# CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE



## magiccabbage

Just wondering if anyone has any info on the specs of this DAC? Or. if there will be a DAC only version.


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## Bonesy Jonesy

magiccabbage said:


> Just wondering if anyone has any info on the specs of this DAC? Or. if there will be a DAC only version.


 
 Latest info on the net in WhatHiFi.com ; 
  
http://www.whathifi.com/news/chord-electronics-launches-new-dac-called-dave#uzzeIMiKqLLQ8qup.99


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## magiccabbage

bonesy jonesy said:


> Latest info on the net in WhatHiFi.com ;
> 
> http://www.whathifi.com/news/chord-electronics-launches-new-dac-called-dave#uzzeIMiKqLLQ8qup.99


 
 I saw that earlier alright. Good stuff but it seems like they have other goodies hidden


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## analogmusic

too expensive. I'm out. taking the piss out of people here.


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## magiccabbage

analogmusic said:


> too expensive. I'm out. taking the piss out of people here.


 
 It is very expensive. Way over my budget that's for sure


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## maguire

Think I'd have to take out a housing loan to afford something like this.....Way over my budget also.


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## analogmusic

I have a family to feed and just bought a Hugo. It's not like that was cheap either.


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## magiccabbage

Come on guys dig deep !!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 hahaha


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## analogmusic

Nah just too much money.


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## magiccabbage

analogmusic said:


> Nah just too much money.


 
 Only kidding - its a hell of a lot of doh.


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## Redcarmoose

Almost looks like a trophy. Yep, trophy DAC, cheaper than trophy wives.


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## Redcarmoose

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RdRAnRyf1Pg


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## magiccabbage

redcarmoose said:


> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RdRAnRyf1Pg


 
 LOL


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## Beolab

The specs i know for now: 

Chord Electronics DAVE =
Digital to Analogue Veritas in Extremis

-Price: 7995£

-Digital integrated Pre-Amp

-Digital Head AMP: 6V / 0,5A = 1200mW @ 33Ohms 0,000015% distortion

-Remote controlled 

-WTA filtering with a new world record at 164.000 taps with 166 separate DSP cores 
(Hugo got a rating on 26000 taps)

-DSD 768 

-Balanced XLR 

-Two Toslink

- Four Coax S-Pdif 

- Two high speed COAX outputs for future use. 

- Worlds best DAC and are capable of outpreforme the best analog according to Chord.

- Isolated USB and can not be powerd trough a Iphone/Ipad , because it need power. 
Maybe someone can create a battery powered USB cable? 

- Delivery in october

Specification:

Inputs:
USB B-style 44 kHz to 768 kHz
DXD and Quad DSD
2x optical 44kHz to 192kHz
1 x AES 44kHz to 192kHz
4 x Coax 44kHz to 384kHz
Dual-data mode available
Outputs digital:
2x ultra-high-speed coax 768kHz dual-data mode (for use with future-unannounced
Chord Electronics products)
Maximum output voltage: 6 volts RMS
THD and noise at 2.5 volts: RMS 0.000015 %
THD and noise at 2.5 volts: 127dBA Awt (124dBA into 33 ohms)
Dynamic range at -60 dBFS 1kHz -127 dBA A wt
(No measurable noise floor modulation, no a harmonic distortion)
(Analogue distortion characteristic: no distortion for small signals)
Power requirements: mains power 80 volts to 260 volts; AC 20 watts


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## analogmusic

beolab said:


> The specs i know for now:
> 
> Chord Electronics DAVE:
> 
> ...


 

 they will say this to get your money but be careful. Outperform the best analog?


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## evillamer

analogmusic said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Are they hinting at the MSB analog?


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## Beolab

The specs i know for now:

Chord Electronics DAVE =
Digital to Analogue Veritas in Extremis

-Price: 7995£

-Digital integrated Pre-Amp

-Digital Head AMP: 6V / 0,5A = 1200mW @ 33Ohms 0,000015% distortion

-Remote controlled

-WTA filtering with a new world record at 164.000 taps with 166 separate DSP cores
(Hugo got a rating on 26000 taps)

-DSD 768

-Balanced XLR

-Two Toslink

- Four Coax S-Pdif

- Two high speed COAX outputs for future use.

- Worlds best DAC and are capable of outpreforme the best analog according to Chord.

- Isolated USB and can not be powerd trough a Iphone/Ipad , because it need power.
Maybe someone can create a battery powered USB cable?

- Delivery in october

Specification:

Inputs:
USB B-style 44 kHz to 768 kHz
DXD and Quad DSD
2x optical 44kHz to 192kHz
1 x AES 44kHz to 192kHz
4 x Coax 44kHz to 384kHz
Dual-data mode available
Outputs digital:
2x ultra-high-speed coax 768kHz dual-data mode (for use with future-unannounced
Chord Electronics products)
Maximum output voltage: 6 volts RMS
THD and noise at 2.5 volts: RMS 0.000015 %
THD and noise at 2.5 volts: 127dBA Awt (124dBA into 33 ohms)
Dynamic range at -60 dBFS 1kHz -127 dBA A wt
(No measurable noise floor modulation, no a harmonic distortion)
(Analogue distortion characteristic: no distortion for small signals)
Power requirements: mains power 80 volts to 260 volts; AC 20 watts


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## analogmusic

Anyway guys I just want one and can't afford it...
  
 I am sure it is absolutely out of this world.


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## Cagin

edit the price ^^ 7999 pounds, not 80 000 Don't you go giving A&K ideas now


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## LFC_SL

magiccabbage said:


> Just wondering if anyone has any info on the specs of this DAC? Or. if there will be a DAC only version.



See posts in Hugo thread. Also some real-life photos from Munich shoe on that thread



joeexp said:


> Meet  DAVE - Chord's new DAC:
> DAVE (Digital to Analogue Veritas in Extremis)
> 
> 
> ...







joeexp said:


> [COLOR=000000]CHORD ELECTRONICS INTRODUCES THEMOST ADVANCED DAC IN THE WORLD: DAVE[/COLOR]
> [COLOR=000000]Chord Electronics has launched its most advanced DAC to date. Given the acronym DAVE, Chord’s latest-generation digital-to-analogue convertor features the very best conversion technology available, using proprietary techniques never seen before.
> 
> DAVE is a highly advanced reference-grade DAC, digital preamp and headphone amplifier. Hand-made in Kent, DAVE is based around a proprietary FPGA (Field Programmable Gate Array) offering more than ten times the program capacity of its predecessor.
> ...






rob watts said:


> I would love to be able to do it but its impossible - the FPGA in Dave is enormous and expensive. It dissipates 5W against Hugo's 0.8W - Chord have machined a heat-sink that holds the display and dissipates the FPGA power. To get all those taps I use all of the available capacity within this FPGA - it has 166 DSP cores running in parallel just to do the WTA filtering - in fact its amazing in that it only dissipates 5W.
> 
> Rob


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## magiccabbage

wow ,,,, thanks for sharing


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## flipper2gv

redcarmoose said:


> Almost looks like a trophy. Yep, trophy DAC, cheaper than trophy wives.


 
  
 IG? Dota 2? On Head-Fi?


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## Beolab

Any first impessions from Munich ??? 

What if Intel started to make FPGA chipset, then we would have 1000.000 taps in 3 years from now, and the sample rate become obsolete according to scientists, because it is 1:1 with real life studio recordings. 

So we are in the biginning to somting big here! 

But DAVE have the world record for a couple of years to come! 

Take a look at this intervju with Rob Watts & John Franks


http://youtu.be/10k_yMHCncY


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## evillamer

rob watts should use 4 x Nvidia Titan X GPU, that way he can do a billion taps.


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## OK-Guy

ok-guy said:


> a couple more photo's of Dave...
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a twenty year progression of Chord DAC's - Dac 64 = 1024 tap filter (top) - QBD 76 = 18,000 taps (middle) & Dave =164,000 taps (foreground).


 
  
 I think real world photos like the ones above rather than these mocked up photo-shopped looking stock photos Chord show on release give a more realistic visual feel to how you would see it in the flesh as even in low light shots like above it looks a lot better than the stock pictures portrayed it to be. Like the line up with it's predecessors.


agooh said:


> sorry I'm late but yes . I'm thinking it's very good idea to use hugo for gaming and watching movies . since I can't use in my work so I think it's good idea to use with my Tv so I bought a new Definitive Technology W Studio Multi Room  sound bar with Wireless Subwoofer , still couldn't find way to pair it with hugo .


 
 Not sure how many do use their Hugo for films/tv programs which would be interesting to know but can vouch it add's another dimension to the Hugo with just not music but films/tv series can be good to listen to with Hugo and again use the Hugo with headphones for films/tv with the laptop can be quite addictive also.  Not familiar with soundbar's though unfortunately, sorry! 
  


agooh said:


> It isn't a very impressive looking machine so how does it sound? And more importantly can it justify the price?
> I'll wait for a review.


 
beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess, after all it primarily even at this price still has to be the sound first, if this sounded the best thing ever and looked like dusty bin, sputnik or even Sloth (from Goonies)  which has been from previous experience of Head-fi & Hi-Fi products looking like they missed the design stage it is still the SQ that is paramount but I think it is just in keeping with the evolution with Chord's natural design philosophy and they are never going to be a normal 44 x 33cm bland box Hi-Fi manufacturer. I must admit if I was been picky I maybe would not quite had so many drill holes along the top wavy part of the design although from photos not sure if they act as a actual vent system or maybe so many bolt holes to the display window personally (makes it maybe a bit to submarine look) but if it was not like this it would not be Chord and can only sit and admire the look of this on the whole.  Maybe the docking rack it sits in is not quite matching in terms of finish but again the stock issued pictures probably don't do it as much justice as a real life photo which I'm sure will be plenty coming soon enough. 
  
Like all things we should all wait of the reviews but if i'm still loving the sound of my Hugo I hate to think how this could potentially sound looking at the incremental tap rates on paper. 
  
Does anything justify the price?, I know Jaffa cakes do at the monent, 2 for 1 offer at a well known supermarket in every town ; )
  


agooh said:


> Very important Question To John and Rob : can you upgrade Hugo with same 164K taps you do with Dave , I'm sure you can do it . _Hugo II_ with 164 k taps .


 
 All in good time, have to remember this is a British Hi-Fi company and not a Korean or Japanese tech company that knocks out a new model every six months to a year like clock work although I hope and wish they (Chord) will/would!  
  
 Yes, a Hugo on the move country to country with 164K taps to hand...
  
  Next stop realistically would be a double the current Hugo tap rate or should I say the tap rate will be drip feed up with each model revision... I still be in for a Hugo with double the tap rate if and when it would be available : ) 
  
 Doesn't hurt to dream the dream though!


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## OK-Guy

ok-guy said:


> Does anything justify the price?, I know Jaffa cakes do at the monent, 2 for 1 offer at a well known supermarket in every town ; )


 
  
 Copied over from Hugo thread to save on clogging.
  
 ps... any chance of a Jaffa Cake reveal ?...


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## FortisFlyer75

It's a stock picture so will not look as delicious as if I took a real photo of them in a real world environment! 
  

  
 These also help keep the Dave crave away!


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## Cagin

Disclaimer: I know nothing of Chord, or of their products.
 Looking at that photo about the 20 years of progression. I find it quite respectable that they have kept the flavour of the visual design throughout all those years. It shares a certain Doctor Who flavour, which also safekept a certain esthetic despite being the longest running Sci-Fi TV show.


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## OK-Guy

fortisflyer75 said:


> It's a stock picture so will not look as delicious as if I took a real photo of them in a real world environment!
> 
> 
> 
> These also help keep the Dave crave away!


 
  
 sod the photo, which supermarket I wants a 2for1...


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## FortisFlyer75

ok-guy said:


> sod the photo, which supermarket I wants a 2for1...


 
 Offer finished at midnight


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## OK-Guy

fortisflyer75 said:


> Offer finished at midnight


 
  
 that's typically selfish of you to inform us after the event, Spurs fans huh... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 btw, thanks for the heads-up on that Fleetwood Mac cd-album at £3.00, notice if you bought the inferior mp3 by tracks it would cost almost £17... I suppose I could redeem you but respect is always based on your last call, which happened to be Jaffa Cakes.
  
 link: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000002NHG?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00


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## Cenacheros

There's been a great deal of negativity about the pricing of Dave.I find this strange given that no one knows how it sounds.If it's a bit better than Hugo,then it is overpriced,but,if as I assume,it's revelatory,it's priced accordingly.My perception of Chord over the years is that they make top notch products which come at a price,the Hugo was pretty much the first "affordable" product from the Chord stable.I quite fancy a Porsche Targa,there's no way I can afford one,but I'm certainly not going to moan about it's price.


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## OK-Guy

cenacheros said:


> .My perception of Chord over the years is that they make top notch products which come at a price,the Hugo was pretty much the first "affordable" product from the Chord stable.I quite fancy a Porsche Targa,there's no way I can afford one,but I'm certainly not going to moan about it's price.


 
  
 can't agree more, for years I have been salivating over Chord products especially the RED-Reference CD-Player but never had any real hope of owning one, now I have a Hugo and it's a joy... I might get to listen to Dave in the future but that'll be about it in this household, sadly...


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## Quest88

If Rob ever reads this, I'd like his opinion about the volume control aspect around the Hugo and Dave, and how he thinks it can integrate the best in a speaker system.
  
 I own a chord pre-amp and chord monoblocks, and was wondering if with the design methodology on the Chord Dave whether I should remove the pre-amp and just connect the Dave directly to the monoblocks - even when the pre-amp is something good like the Chord CPA-5000.


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## Beolab

Im not Rob, but if you dont need more inputs, then i should consider to go direct to the monoblocks for the most straight signal path, and it is not the best to have two volume controls either. 

Alternativ 2. Is to set the DAVE in Line out mode with a fixed 2,2 volt output and go trough your fine Pre-Amp.


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## lovethatsound

cenacheros said:


> There's been a great deal of negativity about the pricing of Dave.I find this strange given that no one knows how it sounds.If it's a bit better than Hugo,then it is overpriced,but,if as I assume,it's revelatory,it's priced accordingly.My perception of Chord over the years is that they make top notch products which come at a price,the Hugo was pretty much the first "affordable" product from the Chord stable.I quite fancy a Porsche Targa,there's no way I can afford one,but I'm certainly not going to moan about it's price.


Chord are just greedy like so many other hi-fi companys with their so called top end I'm sure DAVE will sound better than the Hugo,by how much,who knows,of course it's up to chord and other hi-fi companys how much they sell their products for,But i ask you,Do you really think a Dac is worth £8000?Do you really think that all the bits that come in that Dac or any other Dac cost anywhere near that amount of money?let me put this another way,You can buy a top of range oled 4k tv for around £3500.Now i love music and I'm willing to pay a fair and reasonable amount of money so i can get the most out of it.What i mean by reasonable money for top end hi-fi is around the £5000 mark.Now it's not for me to tell anybody how to spend their money,But ask yourself this.Are you being ripped off?


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## Cenacheros

lovethatsound said:


> Chord are just greedy like so many other hi-fi companys with their so called top end I'm sure DAVE will sound better than the Hugo,by how much,who knows,of course it's up to chord and other hi-fi companys how much they sell their products for,But i ask you,Do you really think a Dac is worth £8000?Do you really think that all the bits that come in that Dac or any other Dac cost anywhere near that amount of money?let me put this another way,You can buy a top of range oled 4k tv for around £3500.Now i love music and I'm willing to pay a fair and reasonable amount of money so i can get the most out of it.What i mean by reasonable money for top end hi-fi is around the £5000 mark.Now it's not for me to tell anybody how to spend their money,But ask yourself this.Are you being ripped off?


 

 I would still be inclined to wait and read what the reviews are like re Dave.I doubt that Chord expect to sell anything like the same amount of Daves as Hugos,that must have some influence on their pricing.My biggest worry about buying a Dave would be making a £1600 donation to the UK taxman!!


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## LFC_SL

Why are you spamming every thread with the same rhetoric. I want a ferrari, can't afford a ferrari but do not complain about the price. With the best will there are definitely customers that want and can buy the top end


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## Cenacheros

lfc_sl said:


> Why are you spamming every thread with the same rhetoric. I want a ferrari, can't afford a ferrari but do not complain about the price. With the best will there are definitely customers that want and can buy the top end


 

 +1


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## goodvibes

I'd say you were selfish in implying no one should be able to attain something you personally don't see the value in. It's quite the myopic view. The Hugo is already so good that it's enough for most which also means the Dave will not sell as well even if a clear upgrade which I suspect it is. New more expensive hardware along with R&D/code for not nearly as many made to amortize those costs means it will cost significantly more. We don't know about rejection rates etc as well. Just a bunch of unfounded assumptions on something you have no experience with. I just heard a $90k analog preamp and it completely smoked a few 20-$30k preamps without embellishment of the signal. There's a whole other world out there and it's a very happy place. It's a great place to visit but if you don't like it, just stay home and stop pissing in my Cheerios.


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## OK-Guy

quest88 said:


> If Rob ever reads this, I'd like his opinion about the volume control aspect around the Hugo and Dave, and how he thinks it can integrate the best in a speaker system.


 
  
 Rob follows & contributes to all the Chord threads, he's at the Munich Show at present but normally manages to reply.
  
 I don't do 'technical' but I do know that DAVE is a DAC>Pre-Amp and can be used as a Headphone amp... Rob will be along at some point to do the technical thingies, hth.
  
 ps... in other news, I prefers milk on me Cheerios...


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## Quest88

beolab said:


> Im not Rob, but if you dont need more inputs, then i should consider to go direct to the monoblocks for the most straight signal path, and it is not the best to have two volume controls either.
> 
> Alternativ 2. Is to set the DAVE in Line out mode with a fixed 2,2 volt output and go trough your fine Pre-Amp.


 
  
 Thanks, I agree with the theory but just curious about the concept as this is the first time I've seen a volume control built into the DAC in this manner as I see in the Hugo. Usually most DACs are better off with a dedicated pre-amp, but I'm not sure here.
  
 In either case, I will get a Chord DAVE to test out when it's released in my country to find out. The Chord CPA-5000 pre-amp costs more than the DAVE and I only use it for one DAC.. if I can remove a component and get a purer sound, all the better.


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## Beolab

quest88 said:


> Thanks, I agree with the theory but just curious about the concept as this is the first time I've seen a volume control built into the DAC in this manner as I see in the Hugo. Usually most DACs are better off with a dedicated pre-amp, but I'm not sure here.
> 
> In either case, I will get a Chord DAVE to test out when it's released in my country to find out. The Chord CPA-5000 pre-amp costs more than the DAVE and I only use it for one DAC.. if I can remove a component and get a purer sound, all the better.




The DAVE pre amp working in the digital domain, so i cant see how your CPA-5000 can puch the SQ even further than DAVE outputs, its more if the CPA-5000 have a SQ colorisation signature, but i don't think so, so you can sell it, if you dont like to look at it unplugged. =)

PS

What country are you from?


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## Whazzzup

Don't get the fuss. You know you want Dave. I do. I'll be calling Canada's distributor in the fall and give folks a review. I'm sure in ten twenty years things will be cheaper for better, but last I looked, I only live once.


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## JaZZ

quest88 said:


> If Rob ever reads this, I'd like his opinion about the volume control aspect around the Hugo and Dave, and how he thinks it can integrate the best in a speaker system.
> 
> I own a chord pre-amp and chord monoblocks, and was wondering if with the design methodology on the Chord Dave whether I should remove the pre-amp and just connect the Dave directly to the monoblocks - even when the pre-amp is something good like the Chord CPA-5000.


 
  
 The Dave (more precisely project xxxx) has been announced as «digital preamp and headphone amp», so it will replace any existing preamp. The more so as – like with the Hugo – the signal from its DAC is sent to the line out which is at the same time preamp output and headphone amp (at least as I understand it).


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## flipper2gv

cenacheros said:


> There's been a great deal of negativity about the pricing of Dave.I find this strange given that no one knows how it sounds.If it's a bit better than Hugo,then it is overpriced,but,if as I assume,it's revelatory,it's priced accordingly.My perception of Chord over the years is that they make top notch products which come at a price,the Hugo was pretty much the first "affordable" product from the Chord stable.I quite fancy a Porsche Targa,there's no way I can afford one,but I'm certainly not going to moan about it's price.


 
  
 It`s the kind of product that the purpose is more to be talked about, to have some people dream about it, thinking about the brand more than anything else. The look with the stand really solidifies this point of view. It might be damn good in the end, but the point is to get people to buy mainly the other products the company produces and getting a bigger reputation in the audiophile world. Still, like many others, I much prefer the Schiit approach of building the best product they can and not putting money in fancy housing and whatnot that doesn't affect the sound quality. Also, I'm pretty sure Schiit margin is much less than most.


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## kzhtoo

cenacheros said:


> There's been a great deal of negativity about the pricing of Dave.I find this strange given that no one knows how it sounds.If it's a bit better than Hugo,then it is overpriced,but,if as I assume,it's revelatory,it's priced accordingly.My perception of Chord over the years is that they make top notch products which come at a price,the Hugo was pretty much the first "affordable" product from the Chord stable.I quite fancy a Porsche Targa,there's no way I can afford one,but I'm certainly not going to moan about it's price.




The negativity on the pricing, the way I see is, mostly stems from people that who has been waiting and targeting Dave as an upgrade path from Hugo or QBD, the people who like Chord sound and want a little more from the current offerings. But the actual Dave price tag puts a lot of such people out of reach. For most other casual observers on the sideline, they simply shrug at the price tag and move on (it's not the first time we are seeing a DAC with 5-figure price tag). It alienates loyal Chord fan base more than anything else. People are expecting, rightfully or not, the price will be along the line of QBD and maybe a little more in £6500 or $10000 range, which IMO probably would have had much less negativity. People are willing to pay more or work harder to get the Chord's top of the line but Chord should also make it a little easier, not a lot but enough.

And Ferrari/Porsche analogy may not really apply here. Say..if I'm driving a BMW X5 and looking to upgrade it, I couldn't care less how much a new Ferrari costs, but I would definitely have something to say if BMW X6 is double the price of a X5. 

Personally, I think QBD is a bit overpriced already, esp. more so in the recent years than 3-4 years ago, given the success of Qute and Hugo. But for Dave to be more than the double of Hugo TT, you can't really expect to not hear a moan or two or three.

But..I'm saying all these completely acknowledging the fact that it's not my place or anyone else's to say how much Chord should charge. They can do whatever the hell they want. Charge more to sell fewer units or charge a little less to sell more units, entirely up to them. 

As a side note though, I for one glad to see the new volume control option (although if it can compete with a good pre-amp is still up in the air) and line-out option to use with a pre/pro, something like HT by-pass (someone mentioned it but not sure if it's true). I'm also curious if both XLR and RCA outputs can be driven simultaneously as I like to drive my subs with one set of the outputs.


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## Quest88

beolab said:


> The DAVE pre amp working in the digital domain, so i cant see how your CPA-5000 can puch the SQ even further than DAVE outputs, its more if the CPA-5000 have a SQ colorisation signature, but i don't think so, so you can sell it, if you dont like to look at it unplugged. =)
> 
> PS
> 
> What country are you from?


 
  
 I agree with yours and JaZZ's comments, and I'd happily sell off my pre if that were true.  It means I will actually earn money from changing to the Chord DAVE. haha

 However, I also think most people generally underestimate how big a difference a good pre-amp makes when your system transparency is high - something that has happened more so recently since the resolution of DACs have gone up. I remember being shocked the first time I heard a high end pre-amp at home.
  
 It's kind of similar to how big an impact camera lens makes nowadays since camera sensors have become so resolving.. the limitation shifts to somewhere else in the chain.
  
 I'm from Singapore.


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## analogmusic

We tried a very expensive and hi end source - the mighty  Linn Klimax DS direct into active speakers
  
 then with a analog Preamp into the same speakers
  
 Now sure how or why, but to my ears it sounded better with the analog preamp.


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## JaZZ

analogmusic said:


> We tried a very expensive and hi end source - the mighty  Linn Klimax DS direct into active speakers
> 
> then with a analog Preamp into the same speakers
> 
> Now sure how or why, but to my ears it sounded better with the analog preamp.


 
  
 I know this effect. However, «better» isn't the same as more true to the original signal. It may take time to get used to the unvarnished truth.


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## OK-Guy

jazz said:


> I know this effect. However, «better» isn't the same as more true to the original signal. It may take time to get used to the unvarnished truth.


 
  
 in the old days, that's when a bit of bass & treble adjustment came in handy, you could get things tuned to how 'you' wanted to hear them... audiophiles killed music enjoyment...


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## magiccabbage

I would like to see a price for a DAC only version of the DAVE - I am happy enough with my WA5. 
  
 I wonder if Chord will offer a tap upgrade for qbd76 owners and how much this would be? 
 It might be worth while buying a second hand qbd76 for cheaper and asking chord can they bring the tap length to 168,000


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## LFC_SL

kzhtoo said:


> The negativity on the pricing, the way I see is, mostly stems from people that who has been waiting and targeting Dave as an upgrade path from Hugo or QBD, the people who like Chord sound and want a little more from the current offerings. But the actual Dave price tag puts a lot of such people out of reach.



You have described the Hugo TT


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## Rob Watts

quest88 said:


> If Rob ever reads this, I'd like his opinion about the volume control aspect around the Hugo and Dave, and how he thinks it can integrate the best in a speaker system.
> 
> I own a chord pre-amp and chord monoblocks, and was wondering if with the design methodology on the Chord Dave whether I should remove the pre-amp and just connect the Dave directly to the monoblocks - even when the pre-amp is something good like the Chord CPA-5000.


 
 Yes.
  
 Even the best pre-amp in the World would degrade transparency, so no pre-amp is the most transparent!
  
 Rob


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## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> Yes.
> 
> Even the best pre-amp in the World would degrade transparency, so no pre-amp is the most transparent!
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Well said! A word to the headphone «amp» in this context? Do line out and headphone out share the same path, as in the Hugo?


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## kzhtoo

lfc_sl said:


> kzhtoo said:
> 
> 
> > The negativity on the pricing, the way I see is, mostly stems from people that who has been waiting and targeting Dave as an upgrade path from Hugo or QBD, the people who like Chord sound and want a little more from the current offerings. But the actual Dave price tag puts a lot of such people out of reach.
> ...




Uh...no


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

rob watts said:


> Yes.
> 
> Even the best pre-amp in the World would degrade transparency, so no pre-amp is the most transparent!
> 
> Rob


 

 +A1


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Yes.
> 
> Even the best pre-amp in the World would degrade transparency, so no pre-amp is the most transparent!
> 
> Rob




Rob; 

I use my Iphone with lightning to the micro USB input to my Hugo, but according to Matthew on your product department, he was not serten that you could connect your iphone/ipad through the isolated USB style B input because it need separate power with USB - B style, and the Iphone doesn't have a powered output sadly. 

Can you confirm this? 

Then i use a Apple TV ith optical out for streaming with Airplay to my QBD76HDSD that going to be upgraded to a DAVE. 
I have tryed the most of the stremers like Arcam AirDAC, BlueSound, SONOS , NAD Aeris with digital output and i think the Apple TV are the most neutral but it convert the samplingrate to 48Khz, så the 16bit 44.1 airplay signal are not native. This may have a big impact on the conversation for the DAVE on the final result, ot whats you opinion? 

Best regards 

Fredrik


----------



## kzhtoo

My experience mirrors Quest and analogmusic. Tried Lumin A1 direct to the amp, but preferred with a Pass pre-amp in between.


----------



## coolhand

I can't help noticing discussion here questioning Dave's price, mostly due to the rather limited perspective of what it is most precisely capable of...
 Instead perhaps _more_ questions should be asked.
  
 It only takes a brief moment to peruse its extraordinary specifications, which suggest that is not merely 'another FPGA dac with volume control' in more ways than may presently be imagined.
 Likewise neither it is a simple update of the QBD76 HDSD :
  
*Chord DAVE DAC* *Specification:*

Inputs:
USB B-style 44 kHz to 768 kHz
DXD and Quad DSD
2x optical 44kHz to 192kHz
1 x AES 44kHz to 192kHz
4 x Coax 44kHz to 384kHz
Dual-data mode available
Outputs digital:
2x ultra-high-speed coax 768kHz dual-data mode (for use with future-unannounced Chord Electronics products)
Maximum output voltage: 6 volts RMS
THD and noise at 2.5 volts: RMS 0.000015 %
THD and noise at 2.5 volts: 127dBA Awt (124dBA into 33 ohms)
Dynamic range at -60 dBFS 1kHz -127 dBA A wt
(No measurable noise floor modulation, no a harmonic distortion)
(Analogue distortion characteristic: no distortion for small signals)
Power requirements: mains power 80 volts to 260 volts; AC 20 watts


----------



## joeexp

coolhand said:


> I can't help noticing discussion here questioning Dave's price, mostly due to the rather limited perspective of what it is most precisely capable of...
> Instead perhaps _more_ questions should be asked.
> 
> It only takes a brief moment to peruse its extraordinary specifications, which suggest that is not merely 'another FPGA dac with volume control' in more ways than may presently be imagined.
> ...


 
  
 Whose side are you on??
 Processing power has become incredibly cheap in recent years. 
 And Chord isn't the only company that produces a FPGA based DAC.
 The design is less then convincing ….
 I will be looking elsewhere!


----------



## Whazzzup

joeexp said:


> coolhand said:
> 
> 
> > I can't help noticing discussion here questioning Dave's price, mostly due to the rather limited perspective of what it is most precisely capable of...
> ...



Please post on that thread what you bought and think about that.


----------



## Rob Watts

jazz said:


> Well said! A word to the headphone «amp» in this context? Do line out and headphone out share the same path, as in the Hugo?


 
 Yes but separate relays so plugging in headphone disconnects the line outs.
  
 Rob


----------



## JaZZ

Thank you!


----------



## highfell

joeexp said:


> Whose side are you on??
> Processing power has become incredibly cheap in recent years.
> And Chord isn't the only company that produces a FPGA based DAC.
> The design is less then convincing ….
> I will be looking elsewhere!




As a matter of interest - in what ways do you find the design less than convincing. I am certainly impressed by the 8x increase in the number of Taps over the Hugo. The number of Taps in the Hugo being a determining factor in how good it sounds.


----------



## Beolab

highfell said:


> As a matter of interest - in what ways do you find the design less than convincing. I am certainly impressed by the 8x increase in the number of Taps over the Hugo. The number of Taps in the Hugo being a determining factor in how good it sounds.




Itś a new world record out side a labartory, so it is going to sound amazing i can promise, but how good is the question, itś not eight times better sound than the Hugo, but maybe 30% better i every aspect is my estimation.


----------



## magiccabbage

beolab said:


> Itś a new world record out side a labartory, so it is going to sound amazing i can promise, but how good is the question, itś not eight times better sound than the Hugo, but maybe 30% better i every aspect is my estimation.


 
 30 % is huge in audio. If it is that high then that is extremely impressive.


----------



## Beolab

magiccabbage said:


> 30 % is huge in audio. If it is that high then that is extremely impressive.




Yes, but also huge price and spec difference


----------



## esimms86

I really don't get all the complaints about the price. Berkeley Audio's Reference DAC is supposedly one of the world's best if you believe reviews in the Absolute Sound and on the Computer Audiophile website. It also sells for 16000 USD. The MSB Analog DAC starts at at 6995 USD but, with upgrades, easily begins to reach and easily exceed Dave's listed price. And then there's the Gryphon Kalliope at 26000 USD and the dcs DACs which cost multiple times the listed price for Dave. 

On top of that, consider Meridian's MQA which is supposed to bring amazing timing resolution to digital audio. Of course, to achieve it you need to find your favorite music available as an MQA file, buy your music once again in a different format and also upgrade your software (and hardware?) to be able to playback MQA. In the meantime, Dave advertises improved timing for your entire existing library.

I've yet to experience Dave but my expectations are definitely running high. While not inexpensive, I can't imagine that it doesn't represent good value for those who can afford it.

Esau


----------



## kzhtoo

esimms86 said:


> I really don't get all the complaints about the price. Berkeley Audio's Reference DAC is supposedly one of the world's best if you believe reviews in the Absolute Sound and on the Computer Audiophile website. It also sells for 16000 USD. The MSB Analog DAC starts at at 6995 USD but, with upgrades, easily begins to reach and easily exceed Dave's listed price. And then there's the Gryphon Kalliope at 26000 USD and the dcs DACs which cost multiple times the listed price for Dave.
> 
> On top of that, consider Meridian's MQA which is supposed to bring amazing timing resolution to digital audio. Of course, to achieve it you need to find your favorite music available as an MQA file, buy your music once again in a different format and also upgrade your software (and hardware?) to be able to playback MQA. In the meantime, Dave advertises improved timing for your entire existing library.
> 
> ...




I love my QBD. But how do you know DAVE represents good value without comparing it against Berkeley Reference or Gryphon Kalliope, or maybe Lampi Big 7/ Golden Gate. 

And for the gentleman who "predicts" DAVE is 30% better than QBD, how do you and what ruler do you use to come up with such a number? Is it because DAVE is 60% more expensive than the QBD76HDSD?


----------



## Sunya

The QBD76HDSD is £5k, so DAVE (Digital Audio Very Expensive) is 60% more expensive than the QBD76HDSD at £8k; I hoped it would come out at no more than £6k, which is twice the Hugo TT's price, which again is twice the Hugo's price. Chord can charge whatever it wants for its products, but @ £8k it will be out of reach for many.


----------



## OK-Guy

re-posted & amended from Hugo thread in reply to price, (link: http://www.head-fi.org/t/702787/chord-hugo/10665).
  
 err small point if I may, but there are other considerations before you make unfair assumptions on how much profit is being made (I don't work for Chord btw)... firstly when a product leaves the UK it is subject to export taxes & duties, in Europe we have VAT the UK rate is 20% of the product retail price. Then you have to factor in the Distributor & Dealer networks, you can betcha they have kids to feed so will want to earn something for selling the products.
  
 Now my personal take on things is that 'Dave' is a upgrade on the QBD and offers a lot more besides, it's a DAC>Pre-Amp & Headphone-Amp... I bet the likes of the other manufacturers mentioned never had this kerfuffle when they released their products, perhaps JF should put his staff on zero-hours minimum wage contracts with a food-bank subsidy voucher as a bonus, that should bring the price down a bit.


----------



## Beolab

Nice input! 

What i have read about MQA you are going to need a special DAC who can handle the MQA decoding, that do not exist today.


----------



## lovethatsound

ok-guy said:


> re-posted & amended from Hugo thread in reply to price, (link: http://www.head-fi.org/t/702787/chord-hugo/10665).
> 
> err small point if I may, but there are other considerations before you make unfair assumptions on how much profit is being made (I don't work for Chord btw)... firstly when a product leaves the UK it is subject to export taxes & duties, in Europe we have VAT the UK rate is 20% of the product retail price. Then you have to factor in the Distributor & Dealer networks, you can betcha they have kids to feed so will want to earn something for selling the products.
> 
> Now my personal take on things is that 'Dave' is a upgrade on the QBD and offers a lot more besides, it's a DAC>Pre-Amp & Headphone-Amp... I bet the likes of the other manufacturers mentioned never had this kerfuffle when they released their products, perhaps JF should put his staff on zero-hours minimum wage contracts with a food-bank subsidy voucher as a bonus, that should bring the price down a bit.


Are you sure you don't work for Chord?All people are saying to chord is £8000 is a bit to much.


----------



## OK-Guy

lovethatsound said:


> Are you sure you don't work for Chord?All people are saying to chord is £8000 is a bit to much.


 
  
 I'm positive I 'do not' work for Chord, I can swear on the bible if'n you want... all I'm saying is that there are associated cost when bringing a product to the market, at the end of the day if you can afford 'DAVE' and you want it chances are you'll buy it, if you can't scrape the pennies together you won't and you'll be like me, yearning... hope that clears up any confusion.


----------



## Beolab

My estimation: 

Chords distributers have a pretty high margin on Chord and overal High End equipment. 

So the product DAVE may just cost a bit over 3000 £ for the distributers in each country and then the dealers/resellers have about 35% margin on 8000 £ = 5200£ for the dealer if he is a true Chord reseller with their hole product range incl the Reference series on display, otherwise they got like 25% margin. 

Then Chord have a 30-40% margin on 3000£, so the actual cost to produce incl sallery, material shipping, is about 1000-1500£ Inkl tax for Chord or even lower. 

You can use on this method on all markets, take a Ferrari for example, its cost about 17.000 £ to produce, but are sold for 170.000£ or more. 

This is nothing new, its like this for all High End companies/brands trough the hole "food-chain" around the world, give or take.


----------



## esimms86

kzhtoo said:


> I love my QBD. But how do you know DAVE represents good value without comparing it against Berkeley Reference or Gryphon Kalliope, or maybe Lampi Big 7/ Golden Gate.
> 
> And for the gentleman who "predicts" DAVE is 30% better than QBD, how do you and what ruler do you use to come up with such a number? Is it because DAVE is 60% more expensive than the QBD76HDSD?




There's always some degree of hype in advertising, however, it does appear that the folks at Chord believe that DAVE competes well among such products as the ones I've mentioned. So far, no one has given a report on how DAVE actually sounds. I'd say listen first before complaining that it's overpriced.


----------



## Beolab

esimms86 said:


> There's always some degree of hype in advertising, however, it does appear that the folks at Chord believe that DAVE competes well among such products as the ones I've mentioned. So far, no one has given a report on how DAVE actually sounds. I'd say listen first before complaining that it's overpriced.




Not to mention the worlds best Atomic Clock DAC Rubicon 39000$ Light Harmonics DaVinci DAC's in the upper 38000$ mark, or MSB, MBL and DCS ring DAC's

What my 30% SQ increase assumption builds on are inside info, and based on that the Hugo with 26000 taps WTA filtering DSP sounds better than my previous QBD76HDSD with 17.000 taps WTA , so the taps do make a change in sound.


----------



## chordguy

As a long term Chord user I thought i'd chime in.
I use a 5 year old Red Reference as my cd player. This has 18,000 taps.
Last year I compared my Red Ref against a Hugo, (26,000 taps) at my dealer.
The Hugo was slightly better, slightly 'crisper' in timing and slightly better top end, but not enough improvement to buy.
The Dave is coming in at 164,000 taps, this should be a huge increase in sound quality.
As for the price, top hi fi is always going to be a niche market and because so few are sold the price has to be high to justify the R&D and the small sales.
I am eagerly awaiting to hear the reports of how it sounds.
I will also be waiting to hear the upgrade path that Chord offers it's Red Ref owners.


----------



## analogmusic

@ Beolab
 can you explain the differences you found between Hugo and QBD76?


----------



## chordguy

My Red Ref would be a qbd76 dac I've never had it updated. I belive the Hugo and the newer qbd hdsd are very similar in sound.
When I compared my Red Ref as I explained the Hugo was very slightly better both in timing and top end but not enough for me to buy the Hugo plus a set of interconnects and digital cable I would have required to run it as an outboard dac.
I knew Dave was coming and preferred the upgrade path that hopefully will be offered to Ref Ref owners.
I have found Chord Electronics an excellent company to deal with and because it is relatively small it maintains a close relationship with its customers. The success of the Hugo though may be putting that at risk though as it has proved so popular.


----------



## ted_b

esimms86 said:


> So far, no one has given a report on how DAVE actually sounds.


 
 DAVE isn't finished yet.  It will be out in the Fall of this year.  What you saw is a prototype.  Rob still has work to do (although it's working enough for Rob and John to hear it and know it).  That is why no one has given a report; it doesn't exist in real life yet.


----------



## Beolab

analogmusic said:


> @ Beolab
> can you explain the differences you found between Hugo and QBD76?




Better perspective, and higher separation and better midrange tonally you hear the voices more pronounced and clearly separated from the other vocals. 

The QBD 76 sound are bit compressed and less vocal clarity, and have litle sweetness to the sound. 

So the Hugo are better and have a diffrent and more clearly and better sound overall is my critical opinion. And i think it is a pretty big improvement. 

The QBD76 sound are more like the Qute HD sound i think.


----------



## agisthos

Rob what sort of analog output stage does the DAVE have in SE and balanced? And the Hugo for that matter.
 ..
 Chord talks a lot about the taps e.t.c but does not say much about the output stage, which I have found is as important as the digital stage for good sound.
  
 This reference DAC has 166,000 taps compared to 8,000 in the older one. The next model will hit the million mark no doubt.


----------



## LFC_SL

esimms86 said:


> There's always some degree of hype in advertising, however, it does appear that the folks at Chord believe that DAVE competes well among such products as the ones I've mentioned. So far, no one has given a report on how DAVE actually sounds. I'd say listen first before complaining that it's overpriced.



Spot on. Anyone complaining now are hating for the sake of it and will never be buying anyway! Stating an opinion once is fine. Repeating it ad nauseum is boring and attention seeking. Everyone else are either ambivalent, interested enthusiasts or actual potential customers.


----------



## Beolab

Rob: 

Will DAVE have support for Meridian MQA format, or in a later MK II version , because you need a chipset like DSD to decode MQA, if i have understand it correctly.


----------



## Beolab

have a look at this video; Rob Watts are talking about the development of the DAVE at the Munich High End 2015

http://youtu.be/80iu7ifXsOo


----------



## kzhtoo

lfc_sl said:


> esimms86 said:
> 
> 
> > There's always some degree of hype in advertising, however, it does appear that the folks at Chord believe that DAVE competes well among such products as the ones I've mentioned. So far, no one has given a report on how DAVE actually sounds. I'd say listen first before complaining that it's overpriced.
> ...




I don't see anyone "repeating" it over and over again nor "complaining" about it out of the line. What's wrong with stating it expensive? It IS expensive. The only attention seeking I see is saying people who are complaining will never be buying. Very weird logic.


----------



## analogmusic

Not quite. I would like to own one but can't afford.


----------



## OK-Guy

kzhtoo said:


> The only attention seeking I see is saying people who are complaining will never be buying. Very weird logic.


 
  
 a Head-Fi'er emailed me recently re-DAVE quoting a relatively famous man saying 'I have a dream'... well we all have those & price is irrelevant in dreams.


----------



## joeexp

Dream on  -


----------



## JaZZ

...or save up...


----------



## Whazzzup

I'll sell a second home.:blink:


----------



## rocky500

Guys don't worry about the price for now. This normally is the way forward for any company.
 They Design state of the art products (which will cost a lot) but it doing so, they learn new ways of implementing new design techniques, new technology.
 Not everyone will be able to afford this cutting edge tech but the biggest bonus for all of us consumers is that it normally gives the designers ways to trickle down this tech into the next products.
  
 We all might not be able to buy Dave but down the track we could get Steve (or what ever name the next one is) with very similar performance but at more affordable prices. 
  
 eg. B&W do it with there speakers and trickle down the new innovations from there top line into the more affordable speakers too.
  
 Hats off to Chord for what looks like great leaps in advancement in a state of the art Dac instead of just resting on there current products.
  
 I just brought a 2Qute (first ever Chord product) and I am loving it. Hopefully in a few years when I may look to upgrade it, there will be another Chord product based on Dave's tech/performance but in my price range to consider.


----------



## OK-Guy

rocky500 said:


> We all might not be able to buy Dave but down the track we could get Steve... or what ever name the next one is


 
  
 fyi I can divulge the name of the next model, it's 'Huckleberry'...  yes it's an abbreviation.


----------



## analogmusic

I was not happy with the price of the DAVE, but at the same time, my Hi-fi was at the dealer when it was announced.
  
 My hi fi is back and the Hugo is playing on it. Enjoying music a lot, and waiting for the production model of DAVE so hear it.
  
 Till then, enjoying music !


----------



## OK-Guy

analogmusic said:


> Till then, enjoying music !


 
  
 I like your hearing thinking...


----------



## JaZZ

Rob, does the Dave have *crossfeed* (as in the Hugo)?


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

Would be great if Chord Electronics are at CanJam London with DAVE along with HUGO and HUGO TT connected to some top tier headphones including HD800's, LCD3's, HiFiMan HE6 and HE1000 etc. for an all out comparison.


----------



## OK-Guy

bonesy jonesy said:


> Would be great if Chord Electronics are at CanJam London with DAVE along with HUGO and HUGO TT connected to some top tier headphones including HD800's, LCD3's, HiFiMan HE6 and HE1000 etc. for an all out comparison.


 
  
 Chord are Sponsor's of the CanJam event so will be in attendance, hth.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

ok-guy said:


> Chord are Sponsor's of the CanJam event so will be in attendance, hth.


 

 A++  Thank you.


----------



## Whazzzup

ok-guy said:


> bonesy jonesy said:
> 
> 
> > Would be great if Chord Electronics are at CanJam London with DAVE along with HUGO and HUGO TT connected to some top tier headphones including HD800's, LCD3's, HiFiMan HE6 and HE1000 etc. for an all out comparison.
> ...



Maybe not the right thread but Canada would like some love. Toronto has over 5-6 mill in the greater area, I'm sure lots of head fi folks. Someone should consider a jam in the great white north


----------



## Kakki

Rob, may be it is not the time yet to tell details of Dave... but I'm too curious.
 I know that Dave has more elements in the discrete DAC section than Hugo. How does this affect the sound quality and why?


----------



## AFWannabe

I have a question for Rob Watts: Does the DAVE, like the Hugo, decimate the DSD input stream? Thanks!


----------



## joeexp

afwannabe said:


> I have a question for Rob Watts: Does the DAVE, like the Hugo, decimate the DSD input stream? Thanks!


 

 Just watch this:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80iu7ifXsOo


----------



## agooh

I can't imagine Dave will replace my berkeley reference dac , if watts listen to my berkeley reference he will increase the taps to 400 K to beat it .
 Still I can't wait to hear it .


----------



## AFWannabe

joeexp said:


> Just watch this:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80iu7ifXsOo


 

 Thanks for the link. It is actually from a countryman journalist!
  
 So basically, if I understood correctly, the DSD input is converted to PCM (multi-bit) but not decimated, so its original sampling rate is not reduced, which is good, but it is still submitted to the WTA filter... So I guess it is not pure DSD, but definitely a progress from the Hugo.
 I'm curious to hear it and assess if it sounds like DSD on ESS Sabre based DACs.


----------



## Rob Watts

jazz said:


> Rob, does the Dave have *crossfeed* (as in the Hugo)?


 
 Yes absolutely.
  
 When we get closer to full production, I will be talking more about Dave, as there is a lot more to it than 164k taps!
  
 Rob


----------



## goobicii

how strong is that class d headphone amp/pre amp in DAVE?     I want to drive Hifiman HE-1000,can it handle it in way similiar to top SS amps like GS-x mk2... Bakoon etc


----------



## Rob Watts

kakki said:


> Rob, may be it is not the time yet to tell details of Dave... but I'm too curious.
> I know that Dave has more elements in the discrete DAC section than Hugo. How does this affect the sound quality and why?


 
 That's pretty complicated to explain, but in simple terms its about resolution first, then less jitter sensitivity, lower distortion and noise.
  
 Subjectively the resolution gives better depth perception, and lower THD and noise gives smoother sound.
  
 I will be talking in more detail closer to the production date.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

goobicii said:


> how strong is that class d headphone amp/pre amp in DAVE?     I want to drive Hifiman HE-1000,can it handle it in way similiar to top SS amps like GS-x mk2... Bakoon etc


 
 Its absolutely not class D - like Hugo, it has a single stage amplifier giving the OP and headphone drive together. The output is 6v RMS, so a bit more voltage than Hugo, but the same 0.5A RMS current.
  
 Rob


----------



## agooh

will license this technology out will reduce the prices !! if so it will be amazing to enjoy chord products at fair price . As I can see it's very promising technology .


----------



## Kakki

rob watts said:


> That's pretty complicated to explain, but in simple terms its about resolution first, then less jitter sensitivity, lower distortion and noise.
> 
> Subjectively the resolution gives better depth perception, and lower THD and noise gives smoother sound.
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you Rob, I will try to wait patiently... the day you will reveal more details of the secrets in Dave!!


----------



## CoLdAsSauLt

I'm by far no engineer, rather in the well-known first stages where you try to wrap your head around the bulk of information and try not to drown.
 Reading this thread, it sparked my technical curiosity however, as I thought I was seeing some parallels in how the Chord DAVE is treating the digital information and how Schiit's Yggdrasil is approaching the matter. Most obvious is that both don't use a "classic DAC-chip".  Anyone here that has more knowledge than me who can chime in and shed some light on this comparison? I know that there might not be enough details on the DAVE yet for that purpose (except for Rob himself then), but am I right to think it's approach is built upon the Hugo's approach? So the principles laid out by DAVE's predecessors might well be comparable?
 Schiit makes a lot of noise for instance about other DACs throwing away the original samples. How will DAVE handle this? What does HUGO do actually?. 
 Boldly spoken, what does the extra cost of the DAVE (whatever that might be in the end) over the Yggdrasil buy me in technical advancements or "better ways of doing A or B"? (Alternatively,if this question is too premature: Why should I buy a Hugo TT instead of an Yggdrasil? No intentions to hijack this thread, I'm just trying to understand the different approaches of the "Chord way" vs the "Schiit way", and learning the basic principles already established by Chord in order to understand the potential improvements that DAVE brings upon these existing techniques)
 I know, in the end the sound is what matters... and that's something we can't compare just yet. I'm nevertheless venting my curious mind 
  
 Thanks in advance for your insights!
  
 Stijn


----------



## Whazzzup

coldassault said:


> I'm by far no engineer, rather in the well-known first stages where you try to wrap your head around the bulk of information and try not to drown.
> 
> Reading this thread, it sparked my technical curiosity however, as I thought I was seeing some parallels in how the Chord DAVE is treating the digital information and how Schiit's Yggdrasil is approaching the matter. Most obvious is that both don't use a "classic DAC-chip".  Anyone here that has more knowledge than me who can chime in and shed some light on this comparison? I know that there might not be enough details on the DAVE yet for that purpose (except for Rob himself then), but am I right to think it's approach is built upon the Hugo's approach? So the principles laid out by DAVE's predecessors might well be comparable?
> 
> ...




Who gives a schiit, about schiit.


----------



## LFC_SL

whazzzup said:


> Who gives a schiit, about schiit.



Have read favourable reports about the yggdrasil over the Hugo TT, so a comparison vs DAVE should interest any audio enthusiast


----------



## Whazzzup

lfc_sl said:


> whazzzup said:
> 
> 
> > Who gives a schiit, about schiit.
> ...



Maybe if I get Dave I'll post a comparison in the schiit thread.


----------



## dallan

lfc_sl said:


> Have read favourable reports about the yggdrasil over the Hugo TT, so a comparison vs DAVE should interest any audio enthusiast





I liked the TT much better when I compared them moments from each other at Canjam. Not even close, and I was hoping it would be.


----------



## Rob Watts

coldassault said:


> I'm by far no engineer, rather in the well-known first stages where you try to wrap your head around the bulk of information and try not to drown.
> Reading this thread, it sparked my technical curiosity however, as I thought I was seeing some parallels in how the Chord DAVE is treating the digital information and how Schiit's Yggdrasil is approaching the matter. Most obvious is that both don't use a "classic DAC-chip".  Anyone here that has more knowledge than me who can chime in and shed some light on this comparison? I know that there might not be enough details on the DAVE yet for that purpose (except for Rob himself then), but am I right to think it's approach is built upon the Hugo's approach? So the principles laid out by DAVE's predecessors might well be comparable?
> Schiit makes a lot of noise for instance about other DACs throwing away the original samples. How will DAVE handle this? What does HUGO do actually?.
> Boldly spoken, what does the extra cost of the DAVE (whatever that might be in the end) over the Yggdrasil buy me in technical advancements or "better ways of doing A or B"? (Alternatively,if this question is too premature: Why should I buy a Hugo TT instead of an Yggdrasil? No intentions to hijack this thread, I'm just trying to understand the different approaches of the "Chord way" vs the "Schiit way", and learning the basic principles already established by Chord in order to understand the potential improvements that DAVE brings upon these existing techniques)
> ...


 
  
 Hugo and Dave don't use any kind of DAC chip, the analogue conversion is discrete using pulse array. The key benefit of pulse array - something I have not seen any other DAC technology achieve at all - is an analogue type distortion characteristic. By this I mean, as the signal gets smaller, the distortion gets smaller too. Indeed, I have posted before about Hugo's small signal performance - once you get to below -20 dBFS distortion disappears - no enharmonic, no harmonic distortion, and no noise floor modulation as the signal gets smaller. With Dave, it has even more remarkable performance - a noise floor that is measured at -180dB and is completely unchanged from 2.5v RMS output to no signal at all. And the benefit of an analogue character? Much smoother and more natural sound quality, with much better instrument separation and focus. Of course, some people like the sound of digital hardness - the aggression gets superficially confused with detail resolution - but it quickly tires with listening fatigue, and poor timbre variation, as all instruments sound hard, etched and up front. But if you like that sound, then fine, but its not for me.
  
 On the digital filter front - original samples getting modified - actually the vast majority of FIR digital filters retain untouched the original samples, as they are known as half band filters. In this case, the coefficients are arranged so that one set is zero with one coefficient being 1, so the original sample is returned unchanged. The other set being used to create the new interpolated value. The key benefit of half band filters is that the computation is much easier, as nearly half the coefficients are zero, plus the filter can be folded so that the number of multiplications is a quarter of a non half band filter. When designing an audio DAC ASIC, the key part in terms of gate count is the multiplier, so reducing this gives a substantial improvement in die size, and hence cost. So traditional digital filters use a cascade of half band filters, each half band filter doubles up the oversampling - so a cascade of 3 half band filters will give you an 8 times over-sampled signal, with one sample being the unmodified original data. You can tell if the filter is like this as at FS/2 (22.05 kHz for CD) the attenuation is -6dB. The filters that are not like this are so called apodising filters, and my filter the WTA filter.
  
 Going back eighteen years ago to the late 90's I was developing my own FIR filter using FPGA's. Initially, I was interested in increasing the FIR filter tap length as I knew from the mathematics of sampling theory that timing errors were reduced with increasing tap length. So the first test was to use half band Kaiser filters - going from 256 taps to 2048 taps gave an enormous sound quality improvement, so I had confirmed that tap length was indeed important subjectively. But at this point I was stuck; I knew that an infinite tap length filter with a sinc impulse response would return the original un-sampled signal perfectly - but the sinc function using only 16 bit accurate coefficients needs 1M tap FIR filter - and that would never happen, certainly not with 90's technology. So was it possible to improve the timing accuracy without using impossible tap lengths? After a lot of thinking and research, I thought there was a way - but it meant using a non half band filter, which would mean that the original sampled data would be modified. This was a big intellectual stumbling block - how can changing the original data be a good thing? But the trouble with audio is that neat simplistic ideas or preconceptions get in the way. Reality is always different, and reality can *only* be evaluated by a careful AB listening test. So I went ahead on this idea, and listened to the first WTA filter algorithm - and indeed it made a massive improvement in SQ - a 256 tap WTA sounded much better than 2048 tap half band Kaiser, even though the data is being modified. Why is this? The job of a DAC is NOT to reproduce the data it is given, but to reproduce the analogue signal before it is sampled. The WTA filter reconstructs the timing of the original transients much more accurately than using half band filters or filters that preserve the original data and it is timing of transients that is the most important SQ aspect.
  
 So the moral of the tale? Don't let a simplistic technical story get in the way of enjoying music!                
   
  Rob


----------



## CoLdAsSauLt

rob watts said:


> ...
> I knew that an infinite tap length filter with a sinc impulse response would return the original un-sampled signal perfectly - but the sinc function using only 16 bit accurate coefficients needs 1M tap FIR filter
> ...
> The WTA filter reconstructs the timing of the original transients much more accurately than using half band filters or filters that preserve the original data and it is timing of transients that is the most important SQ aspect.
> ...




Thank you Rob for your fast, lengthy and very clarifying response!

Are there disadvantages to the less computation intensive half band filtering and the folding compared to what I'll call "traditional full-band filtering"?

Am I right to assume your theoretical end-game DAC uses half band (full band?) filters with +1M taps? Or will your WTA filter still be a better approximation/reproduction of the analog wave due to the taps not being infinite? If I understand you well, this is where we walk into the ceiling of what is possible with 16bit coefficients - so more (or infinite) taps stop making a difference due to this limitation. Do these 16bits refer to the recording (so for 24bit high-rez recordings these numbers would be higher) or to the filter / processor architecture?

I'm looking forward to your +1M taps DAC somewhere in the future  As computational power keeps rising, we might actually be able to pull it off. Or am I dreaming your dream too loudly now?


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes the half band filter has much poorer timing of transients accuracy - it is in part due to the poor suppression of aliasing images as 22.0501 kHz is -6dB down, whereas an ideal infinite tap length FIR sinc filter would have infinite attenuation at 22.0501 kHz, and these errors degrade the time domain accuracy which manifests itself as poorer transient timing accuracy. But its much more complex than this!
  
 The WTA filter is as you call full band filter - but as the tap length increases, it converges onto an ideal sinc filter.
  
 The 16 bits refer to the accuracy of the coefficients against the ideal sinc function - so if we want to get an impulse response that has 16 bit accurate coefficients (that is the truncation of the coefficients occurs when the coefficient is below 16 bit in level), then you need about 1M taps. But what level is audible? Hugo is about 12 bits accurate against the ideal, Dave is about 14 bits - and there is a substantial difference in SQ between the two. But at what point does increasing tap length make no difference? Nobody knows the answer to that, but I will find out! There is also the issue of oversampling level, but that's another story...
  
 Rob


----------



## jcx

a symmetric 1 M tap FIR linear phase filter would require just over a second for the music to start after pressing play @ 44.1 and 8x OS - can you set home theater audio latency compensation time that high? - or no movie for you


----------



## JaZZ

Looking forward to the Dave. The technology alone makes me think it will be what I'm looking for – my respect to Rob Watts for the diligence and elaborateness with which he cares for the ultimate refinement in music reproduction. But let's see if my 65-year-old ears will justify the expense.


----------



## audiobill

Rob - anxiously awaiting DAVE. Can you _please_ share a timeframe for its expected availability? TIA, and keep up the good work. Your efforts are much appreciated by music lovers around the world.


----------



## Rob Watts

On delay - for Dave I have an asymmetric WTA filter setting for lower delays for use with video. This works very well subjectively.
  
 Dave production is scheduled for October 2015.
  
 Rob


----------



## Sapientiam

I see in the specs you mentioned 'no measurable noise floor modulation' - how did you do the measurement and with what stimulus?


----------



## Shini44

i will save for it for a year or two lol , i don't mind buying it, in fact I WANT IT SO BADLY!! 

 but this time i wont stay quite about the amp section, for the price i want the amp section to be a high end, unlike the Hugo and Hugo TT which people including me are using it as a DAC

 but now we are talking about a super price here for a DAC amp, so Please!!!  Chord!!, Rob Watts!!  i want the amp section to be a High End as well, 


 though i highly doubt that the amp section will be good, but i am looking forward for reviews, and i want this DAC, 

 ---------------------
  
 oh about those who complain about the price, if you don't or can't buy it then please don't bother posting... its pointless, unless you are worried about the quality when compared to Hugo Chord etc, 
  
 for example and IMO the Hugo Chord TT for me didn't justify the price what so ever, because the ratio between sound quality difference and price was a rip off, and i kept using my Hugo Chord, but ofc if the ratio was good, and the TT was indeed an upgrade, then i would have bought it 100%


 so people please don't hate on it , unless you confirm from reviewers about the ratio between sound and price when compared to the previous products.




 man i can wait for reviews and comparisons between the Hugo TT and the Dave


----------



## Whazzzup

I'm drooling for Dave. Not that there is anything wrong with that...


----------



## audiobill

From the interviews about DAVE with Rob Watts and John Franks as well as the extraordinary advancement in its design and processing power compared to their earlier efforts, I expect DAVE to be a very significant step forward in state of the art DAC performance and not a subtle improvement. Now we just have to wait until October to learn the full story about its performance rather than mere speculation.


----------



## Beolab

audiobill said:


> From the interviews about DAVE with Rob Watts and John Franks as well as the extraordinary advancement in its design and processing power compared to their earlier efforts, I expect DAVE to be a very significant step forward in state of the art DAC performance and not a subtle improvement. Now we just have to wait until October to learn the full story about its performance rather than mere speculation.




Where have you read that DAVE only going to sound subtle better than the Hugo and the TT? Its going to be much better and open up for a new dimension in DAC:s.


----------



## audiobill

I agree with you completely, Beolab! Some posters in various forums I have seen questioning how much better it can really be to justify its price, but looking at the extreme processing power used it should be apparent that it will be in another league of performance compared to anything else available. The time can't pass quickly enough for me to reach October...


----------



## analogmusic

Dear Rob
  
 Before Hugo I used a software called Burwen Audio - which adds space and ambiance and gets rid of the digital hardness, so changing the original date does yield very good sonic results to my ears. 
  
 Quote:


rob watts said:


> Of course, some people like the sound of digital hardness - the aggression gets superficially confused with detail resolution - but it quickly tires with listening fatigue, and poor timbre variation, as all instruments sound hard, etched and up front. But if you like that sound, then fine, but its not for me.
> 
> This was a big intellectual stumbling block - how can changing the original data be a good thing? But the trouble with audio is that neat simplistic ideas or preconceptions get in the way. Reality is always different, and reality can *only* be evaluated by a careful AB listening test. So I went ahead on this idea, and listened to the first WTA filter algorithm - and indeed it made a massive improvement in SQ - a 256 tap WTA sounded much better than 2048 tap half band Kaiser, even though the data is being modified. Why is this? The job of a DAC is NOT to reproduce the data it is given, but to reproduce the analogue signal before it is sampled. The WTA filter reconstructs the timing of the original transients much more accurately than using half band filters or filters that preserve the original data and it is timing of transients that is the most important SQ aspect.
> 
> ...


----------



## analogmusic

audiobill said:


> I agree with you completely, Beolab! Some posters in various forums I have seen questioning how much better it can really be to justify its price, but looking at the extreme processing power used it should be apparent that it will be in another league of performance compared to anything else available. The time can't pass quickly enough for me to reach October...


 

 Same here. I can't afford the DAVE, but still very very keen to hear what it sounds like. I am sure it will be the DAC that sets the standard for the next few years, until the million tap DAC comes out from Chord.


----------



## analogmusic

The H


rob watts said:


> Yes the half band filter has much poorer timing of transients accuracy - it is in part due to the poor suppression of aliasing images as 22.0501 kHz is -6dB down, whereas an ideal infinite tap length FIR sinc filter would have infinite attenuation at 22.0501 kHz, and these errors degrade the time domain accuracy which manifests itself as poorer transient timing accuracy. But its much more complex than this!
> 
> The WTA filter is as you call full band filter - but as the tap length increases, it converges onto an ideal sinc filter.
> 
> ...


 

 Dear Mr Watts,  what does 12 bits accurate against the ideal mean?


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> On delay - for Dave I have an asymmetric WTA filter setting for lower delays for use with video. This works very well subjectively.
> 
> Dave production is scheduled for October 2015.
> 
> Rob




Hi Rob

Will it be possible to connect a Iphone/Ipad through the apple camera kit adapter to USB and play on DAVE ?


----------



## CoLdAsSauLt

Dear Rob
  
 Any chance you might get a pre-production unit ready for this?
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/big-sound-2015-and-so-it-begins
 Tyll is like THE authority in headphone world. And the gear he'll test the DACs with will certainly
 allow the DAVE to show it's true competence and glory 
  
 Or am I dreaming out loud now?


----------



## Rob Watts

The H


rob watts said:


> Yes the half band filter has much poorer timing of transients accuracy - it is in part due to the poor suppression of aliasing images as 22.0501 kHz is -6dB down, whereas an ideal infinite tap length FIR sinc filter would have infinite attenuation at 22.0501 kHz, and these errors degrade the time domain accuracy which manifests itself as poorer transient timing accuracy. But its much more complex than this!
> 
> The WTA filter is as you call full band filter - but as the tap length increases, it converges onto an ideal sinc filter.
> 
> ...


 

 Dear Mr Watts,  what does 12 bits accurate against the ideal mean? 
  



 The ideal impulse response, the sinc function gradually converges to zero, so the future and past samples no longer have a significant effect. With the 12 bits accuracy, then one can say that the WTA impulse response is roughly the same as the ideal sinc function to a 12 bit accuracy, as the coefficients are now smaller than 12 bits. There will come a point when the coefficients are so small they no longer have an audible effect, and I certainly have not hit that point yet. 
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> Hi Rob
> 
> Will it be possible to connect a Iphone/Ipad through the apple camera kit adapter to USB and play on DAVE ?


 
 Sure. But power will be drawn from the source, due to the galvanic isolation, so you may have to connect a charger to it, or use a powered USB hub.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

sapientiam said:


> I see in the specs you mentioned 'no measurable noise floor modulation' - how did you do the measurement and with what stimulus?


 
 Good question. Noise floor modulation is very difficult to measure, as ADC's (even the very best) have very significant noise floor modulation. Firstly, what is noise floor modulation? When a sine wave signal is used in a DAC, you get different types of distortion - harmonic distortion (distortion of integer multiples from the sine wave fundamental) enharmonic distortion (distortion products that are non integer) and changes to the noise level. So for example you may have a DAC that produces noise at -120dB with -60dB sine wave (traditional dynamic range test) but the noise with a 0dB sine wave maybe -115dB - thus the noise has increased by reproducing a higher level sine wave - in this case the noise floor (seen by doing an FFT measurement) would increase by 5dB.
  
 Now noise floor modulation is highly audible - it interferes with the brain's processing of data from the ear - and immeasurably small levels of noise floor modulation is audible. I know this as I have listened to noise floor modulation at around -200dB - these numbers are derived from simulation - and heard the effect when the noise floor modulation mechanism was switched on and off.
  
 The problem with noise floor modulation is measuring it, as ADC performance is far worse than Hugo's, and certainly worse than Dave's. With my old Audio Precision (AP) I used to use a fixed frequency passive notch filter to remove the fundamental, then fed the residual into the AP. From this one could determine noise floor modulation, but the AP was not good at resolving small noise floors. But around October 2014 AP launched the APX555, and this had a clever system to enable more accurate measurements of distortion and noise floor. What this instrument does is the employ two ADC's per channel, and an automatic notch filter, so one ADC uses notched out fundamental, and another ADC for the fundamental. The instrument then stitches the two plots together in the digital domain.
  
 It also had a very high purity analogue oscillator - the system has residual THD at 2.5v of -150dB. Since I need a high purity analogue source to test the pro ADC project, and since Dave at that time exceeded the old AP measurement capacity, once AP launched the APX555 I went out and purchased one.
  
 So we can now see the performance of Dave using the APX555:
  
  

  
 Here we have a 1kHz signal at 2.5v RMS and distortion is below -150dB (blue trace). The no signal is the red trace, and you can see that the noise floor is identical in both cases, close to -180dB. 0dB is at 6v RMS, the maximum output of Dave. Clearly, there is no measurable noise floor modulation at all, even with the noise floor close to -180dB.
  
 Rob


----------



## Sapientiam

To help interpret your FFT do you have the number of bins and effective bin bandwidth to hand? -180dB as a figure for noise isn't particularly useful until the bandwidth its measured in is known.


----------



## Rob Watts

From memory it was 1.2M FFT length, 48kHz sample rate. Total noise is about -130dB A wt. The benefit of resolving -180dB noise floor is that it exposes small errors that are normally buried well within the noise floor.
  
 Rob


----------



## Sapientiam

Ah the total noise provides a sanity check reference for the FFT gain - thanks a lot!


----------



## rkt31

hi, can anybody tell if the analog coaxial out of dave can be fed to sub at the same time of using xlr out to power amp ?


----------



## Rob Watts

Sure but clearly balanced is +6dB over SE output.
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

Hi Rob: 

Do you se any disadvantages that the DAVE are not a balanced DAC aginst MSB Diamond and Light Harmonics DaVinci Balanced DAC's?


----------



## audiobill

The most impressive statistic to me is that Rob stated (in a video interview) that he was able to continue to lower DAVE's digital section S/N until he achieved an amazing _-350dB_, and he continued to hear improvements in depth of the reproduced signal until he reached that point. Even though the analog section does not meet that spec, he was still able to hear the improvement in the digital section by realizing that amazing spec. This just shows the levels that Rob goes to in order to extract the finest sound quality, even though typical logic might have prevented other engineers from even attempting such low levels of noise as to be virtually unmeasurable by conventional means. I'm counting the days until DAVE becomes available!


----------



## JaZZ

audiobill said:


> The most impressive statistic to me is that Rob stated (in a video interview) that he was able to continue to lower DAVE's digital section S/N until he achieved an amazing _-350dB_, and he continued to hear improvements in depth of the reproduced signal until he reached that point. Even though the analog section does not meet that spec, he was still able to hear the improvement in the digital section by realizing that amazing spec. This just shows the levels that Rob goes to in order to extract the finest sound quality, even though typical logic might have prevented other engineers from even attempting such low levels of noise as to be virtually unmeasurable by conventional means. I'm counting the days until DAVE becomes available!


 
  
 Yes, amazing!


----------



## rkt31

rob watts said:


> Sure but clearly balanced is +6dB over SE output.
> 
> Rob


 thanks rob for quick reply. one more thing, using Dave as preamp will require the amp of how much gain for normal listening levels ? which will be better for dave high gain or low gain power amp ?


----------



## Beolab

Hi Rob:

Do you se any disadvantages that the DAVE are not a balanced DAC aginst MSB Diamond and Light Harmonics DaVinci Balanced DAC's?


----------



## Rob Watts

Dave has such a wide OP level and ultra low noise, the gain of the power amp is unimportant.
  
 Dave is SE as that's the best for SQ; but to do so is much harder, as differential gives measured benefits that hides SQ problems. Going SE means that you no longer hide the problems.
  
 Rob


----------



## agisthos

Rob you should give a definitive 'why SE is better' explanation. Get it over with, because many (most) audiophiles have been biased towards balanced and are not going to understand where you are coming from.
  
 One good argument I heard from the Densen founder (Thomas Sillesen) is that each half of the signwave runs through a series of components that will always have tolerances different from each other, so when combining the signal they will not ever match, causing an increase in distortion (of some kind I cannot remember).
  
 Charles Hanson, of Ayre, who is a proponent of fully balanced equipment, has even stated that for pure sound quality SE will always sound better, but this is on the bench, where the power supply and analog signal stages can be kept physically apart. When putting them in a box he prefers balanced.


----------



## OK-Guy

​  
 John Franks & Rob Watts will be in attendance at the 'Kuala Lumpur International AV Show' from 3rd - 5th July (details below)... pop along and say Hello if you're in the area... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
*Show Information:-*
  
*KL International AV Show 2015*
*Venue:* JW Marriott Hotel - Kuala Lumpur
*Dates:* 3 to 5 July 2015
*Times:* Friday, Saturday & Sunday : 10.00am to 7.30pm


----------



## bmichels

I want to upgrade from my HUGO. I will wait CanJam London to try DAVE with LCD-X & HE1000 before I buy a TotalDAC.

HAs someone already been able to hear DAVE ??


----------



## OK-Guy

bmichels said:


> Has someone already been able to hear DAVE ??


 
  
 I know a few who have, John, Rob & Matt... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 not long to wait now...


----------



## Shini44

bmichels said:


> I want to upgrade from my HUGO. I will wait CanJam London to try DAVE with LCD-X & HE1000 before I buy a TotalDAC.
> 
> HAs someone already been able to hear DAVE ??


 
 waiting for you impressions ^^

 sadly we both didn't go to the TT because of many obvious reasons (coming from Hugo)

 but i am sure DAVE will be a blast 

 can't wait for your mini review or even notes, then i will let the saving start


----------



## bmichels

In London, I will also try to force CHORD to tell me secrets 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Indeed, DAVE's press release also points out that the specifications include two ultra-high-speed digital coaxial outputs, for "*future, unannounced Chord Electronics products*". I really wonder what those could be?   Digital OUTPUT !! what for ???


----------



## JaZZ

bmichels said:


> In London, I will also try to force CHORD to tell me secrets
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Class D power amp?


----------



## OK-Guy

my error... will update on Dave when I know more, best to have definitives about the launch date.


----------



## bmichels

I hope that DAVE will be ready for listening at CanJam London End of August.


----------



## OK-Guy

bmichels said:


> I hope that DAVE will be ready for listening at CanJam London End of August.


 
  
 should know about that this week, not too sure if it will be ready on time.... chin-up Bmichels I'll get something arranged for you forsure...


----------



## Beolab

jazz said:


> Class D power amp?




Rob Watts talked about some new revolutionary poweramps, so mybe the DAVE can control the CLASS D amp in total digital domain and then convert to analog in the speaker output terminals.


----------



## JaZZ

beolab said:


> Rob Watts talked about some new revolutionary poweramps, so mybe the DAVE kan control the CLASS D amp in total digital domain and convert to analog in the final output circuit.


 
  
 My idea is that there's no D/A conversion until the power amp's/amps' speaker terminals. (Maybe we mean the same.)


----------



## Beolab

jazz said:


> My idea is that there's no D/A conversion until the power amp's/amps' speaker terminals. (Maybe we mean the same.)




Yea, we meant the same if your read my post   

Very interesting future for CHORD Electronics


----------



## JaZZ

beolab said:


> Yea, we meant the same if your read my post
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 As I understand it, the digital-to-analogue converters in class D (PWM) amp output stages consist just of inductors, providing the necessary low-pass filtering.
  
 The class D amp speculation is just speculation, though.


----------



## TokenGesture

Speculation maybe but what else can it be? I'm sure you are right


----------



## ted_b

jazz said:


> Class D power amp?


 

 Nope, but I can't say any more.  You're close though.


----------



## Beolab

I think the Chord maybe have designed a new amp classification like a hybrid btw Class D and Class A-B and can be controlled by DAVEś new special digital outputs, where the D/A conversation happends after the amplification for a more exakt amplification in the digital domain. So i think DAVE acts as a Word Clock and signal source for the amps, thats why its to outlets. 

But its just speculation

Are we closer to the target JaZZ ?


----------



## JaZZ

I have no further idea, I give up. Mysteries are fun, too.


----------



## Kamil21

My main concern about the Dave compared to Hugo is that it has an internal switching power supply. Compared to the Hugo which is battery powered or with an external supply, it might introduce EM noise... as opposed to an isolated battery which is what I think made the Hugo such a success.


----------



## bmichels

kamil21 said:


> My main concern about the Dave compared to Hugo is that it has an internal switching power supply. Compared to the Hugo which is battery powered or with an external supply, it might introduce EM noise... as opposed to an isolated battery which is what I think made the Hugo such a success.




An external PSU will have been a good thing. NO risk of EM noise and...even Allowing for (big)battery operation if needed.


----------



## audiobill

Chord knows how to make a proper SMPS very well so that noise should not be an issue. Other high end companies like Jeff Rowland also make use of SMPSs of their own design and they are not noisy by any means. A properly designed SMPS can outperform a conventional linear supply, and should not be categorized together with cheaply made SMPSs.


----------



## AndrewOld

rob watts said:


> Dave has such a wide OP level and ultra low noise, the gain of the power amp is unimportant.
> 
> Dave is SE as that's the best for SQ; but to do so is much harder, as differential gives measured benefits that hides SQ problems. Going SE means that you no longer hide the problems.
> 
> Rob




Rob, I have a Hugo which is wonderful driving active ATCs. I made up some suitable phono to XLR cables. I am thinking of upgrading to a Hugo TT, one of the reasons being the balanced outs on the TT. Are you are saying that I should still drive my ATCs from the phono outs of the TT rather than the balanced outs?


----------



## JaZZ

According to Rob Watts (posted in the «Hugo» thread) Chord has managed to maintain the same noise-free power supply as from the Hugo's and TT's battery – and the 2Cute seems to prove that. I absolutely trust Rob on this – he's a perfectionist with excellent hearing, not just a data fetishist.


----------



## Beolab

andrewold said:


> Rob, I have a Hugo which is wonderful driving active ATCs. I made up some suitable phono to XLR cables. I am thinking of upgrading to a Hugo TT, one of the reasons being the balanced outs on the TT. Are you are saying that I should still drive my ATCs from the phono outs of the TT rather than the balanced outs?




Is it ATC SCM50 SLA or what ATC do you use?


----------



## analogmusic

I think the new digital amp will have a pulse array dac, but will take the output of the filter in DAVE
  
 The pulse array dac isn't probaby that expensive, it is the FPGA that is the key element of the DAVE.
  
  
  
 Quote:


beolab said:


> I think the Chord maybe have designed a new amp classification like a hybrid btw Class D and Class A-B and can be controlled by DAVEś new special digital outputs, where the D/A conversation happends after the amplification for a more exakt amplification in the digital domain. So i think DAVE acts as a Word Clock and signal source for the amps, thats why its to outlets.
> 
> But its just speculation
> 
> Are we closer to the target JaZZ ?


----------



## Beolab

Something like that.. Smart use of the FPGA filtering in the DAVE, and just extend the internal signal path to an external amp and achieve a perfect transport without any loss and make the final conversion in the AMP, thats clever.


----------



## Kakki

Rob, I have a question on Dave.
 Can we still see the inside through the glass window? or the window is now an LCD screen and we can no longer see the inside?
 I like the way Chord designs its products ... the users can see the inside and the LED lights on the boards and wondering if we can still do the same with Dave.


----------



## Beolab

My QBD76 HDSD Limited ED with DSD indicating Lavender LED lightning inkl Chord table alu bracket. 

M





kakki said:


> Rob, I have a question on Dave.
> Can we still see the inside through the glass window? or the window is now an LCD screen and we can no longer see the inside?
> I like the way Chord designs its products ... the users can see the inside and the LED lights on the boards and wondering if we can still do the same with Dave.





I can say to 99.9999999% unfortunately not, because of the LED or OLED display that CHORD will be using are most likley not a transparent display version, but even if it was, you could not see clearly true it, its going to blur out the chipset board.


----------



## JaZZ

Sad, but true. The round display reminding of a porthole has its own charm, though.


----------



## Beolab

jazz said:


> Sad, but true. The round display reminding of a porthole has its own charm, though.




I think it loks like a breitling watch with the chromed HDSD ring. Feels realy expensiv. 

I have alredy placed my order on the DAVE.


----------



## audiobill

I have seen that the announced price for the DAVE is £7995, can anyone confirm what the US pricing will be? TIA


----------



## JaZZ

beolab said:


> I think it loks like a breitling watch with the chromed HDSD ring. Feels realy expensiv.
> 
> I have alredy placed my order on the DAVE.


 
  
 You seem to be one courageous person. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I think I'm gonna wait for the first reviews, since auditioning it (in Geneva) would mean some hassle for me. And I'm still not sure if I really need it for my peace of mind.


----------



## OK-Guy

audiobill said:


> I have seen that the announced price for the DAVE is £7995, can anyone confirm what the US pricing will be? TIA


 
  
 quick off the head conversion of the figure you've stated is $12,500 approx.... best to get in touch with Jay at Bluebird Music, he'll happily advise you.
  
 Link: http://www.bluebirdmusic.com/sections/chord-electronics.html
  


jazz said:


> And I'm still not sure if I really need it for my peace of mind.


 
  
 ever thought that you won't have 'peace of mind' if don't you give in to your desires?... conundrums huh.


----------



## JaZZ

ok-guy said:


> ever thought that you won't have 'peace of mind' if don't you give in to your desires?... conundrums huh.


 
  
 That's an old trick of the unsatisfied mind to justify everything except for being satisfied with iself.


----------



## Whazzzup

jazz said:


> ok-guy said:
> 
> 
> > ever thought that you won't have 'peace of mind' if don't you give in to your desires?... conundrums huh.
> ...



The mind is a wonderful thing, its the ears that are the issue . If i never upgrade from my present rigs id still be very content. But that wont stop me from reading audio conversations at head fi, once one tastes the apple, paradise may not be lost, just one left click away. Im very interested in dave


----------



## JaZZ

whazzzup said:


> The mind is a wonderful thing, its the ears that are the issue . If i never upgrade from my present rigs id still be very content. But that wont stop me from reading audio conversations at head fi, once one tastes the apple, paradise may not be lost, just one left click away. Im very interested in dave


 
  
 Yes, it would certainly be a wonderful thing to allow my ears the delight of 164,000 taps – maybe I would benefit from it as well.


----------



## OK-Guy

jazz said:


> Yes, it would certainly be a wonderful thing to allow my ears the delight of 164,000 taps – maybe I would benefit from it as well.


 
  
 especially if you were communicating those taps from your ears to your toes... 'Happy Feet' move over, DAVE's the new fitness instructor...


----------



## rkt31

will there be any dedicated buffered pre out for sub in dave or the rca out can be used to feed active sub ?


----------



## rkt31

hi, what will the max ouput of Dave ? like Hugo has 5v .


----------



## Beolab

rkt31 said:


> hi, what will the max ouput of Dave ? like Hugo has 5v .[/
> 
> The headphone output is better than Hugo with 6V and 0.5A drive capability. The measured distortion is 0.000015%!
> 
> So around 3 watt @ 33 Ohm


----------



## OK-Guy

​ ​  
 ​ *SHAV 2015*​  ​ Shantou Hi-End Audio Visual Show​ Shantou​ Guangdong Province​  ​ Dates: 17th - 19th July​  ​ *John & Rob will be guest of Chord distributor Zesen Electrical at the Event.*​  ​ Event Website: http://www.shav-show.com/​ Chord Distributor: http://www.zshifi.com.cn/pc/​


----------



## Rob Watts

agisthos said:


> Rob you should give a definitive 'why SE is better' explanation. Get it over with, because many (most) audiophiles have been biased towards balanced and are not going to understand where you are coming from.
> 
> One good argument I heard from the Densen founder (Thomas Sillesen) is that each half of the signwave runs through a series of components that will always have tolerances different from each other, so when combining the signal they will not ever match, causing an increase in distortion (of some kind I cannot remember).
> 
> Charles Hanson, of Ayre, who is a proponent of fully balanced equipment, has even stated that for pure sound quality SE will always sound better, but this is on the bench, where the power supply and analog signal stages can be kept physically apart. When putting them in a box he prefers balanced.


 
 Well this is a complex subject, and sometimes a balanced connection does sound better than single ended (SE) - in a pre-power context - but it depends upon the environment, and the pre and power and the interconnect. But the downside of balanced is that you are doubling the number of analogue components in the direct signal path, and this degrades transparency. In my experience every passive component is audible, every metal to metal interface (including solder joints - I once had a lot of fun listening to solder) has an impact - in case of metal/metal interfaces it degrades detail resolution and the perception of depth. So going balanced will have a cost in transparency.
  
 In DAC design, going balanced is essential with silicon design; there is simply too much substrate noise and other effects not too. But with discrete DAC's you do not need to worry about this, so going SE on a discrete DAC is possible, and is how all my DAC's are done. But differential operation hides certain problems (notably reference circuit) that has serious SQ effects; so going SE means those problems are exposed, which forces one to solve the issue fundamentally. In short, to make SE work you have to solve many more problems, but the result of solving those problems solves SQ issues than differential operation hides when you do measurements.
  
 In the case of Dave, I have gotten state of the art measured performance - distortion harmonics below -150 dB, zero measurable noise floor modulation - and there is no way you could do this with a differential architecture. So it is possible to have better measured performance with SE than differential, but it is a lot harder to do it - indeed, the only way of getting virtually zero distortion and noise floor modulation is SE.  
  
 Rob


----------



## jcx

> In the case of Dave, I have gotten state of the art measured performance - distortion harmonics below -150 dB, zero measurable noise floor modulation - and there is no way you could do this with a differential architecture


 
  
 if the 2x total Vswing is standard for balanced/differential output vs single ended then I should end up in the exact same place with 2 Daves fed antiphase - actually integrating them should save some circuit duplication -  the point doesn't stand


----------



## JaZZ

jcx said:


> if the 2x total Vswing is standard for balanced/differential output vs single ended then I should end up in the exact same place with 2 Daves fed antiphase - actually integrating them should save some circuit duplication -  the point doesn't stand


 
  
 Interesting argument...


----------



## agisthos

jcx said:


> if the 2x total Vswing is standard for balanced/differential output vs single ended then I should end up in the exact same place with 2 Daves fed antiphase - actually integrating them should save some circuit duplication -  the point doesn't stand


 

 So 2x DAVE fed antiphase will leave you in the exact same position. Of course there will not be an exact doubling of component count, due to removal of some duplication, but the fact remains component count will still be higher than SE. Or am I missing your point, and it would actually be lower?


----------



## JaZZ

Component count isn't a central aspect when it comes to compare the (dis)advantages of SE vs. balanced – the latter is always more expensive. _jcx_'s argument is that you may very well benefit from the advantages of a balanced system without the disadvantages mentioned by _Rob Watts_, as above scenario seems to show.
  
 I'm by no means a proponent of balanced design, just interested to know what's up with it. In this context my question: Doesn't signal inversion have some degradation potential when implemented in a balanced configuration? (Like e.g. negative feedback.)


----------



## Rob Watts

Component count is very important for transparency. Doubling the number of parts in the direct signal path does degrade depth perception and detail resolution.
  
 But there is another problem with balanced operation. Imagine a balanced differential in, differential out amplifier. The input stage is normally a differential pair (maybe cascoded) with a constant current source. Now the input stage is free to move up and down to accommodate the common mode voltage - but the input stage common mode impedance is non linear, and if the common mode voltage has a signal component (it always will have due to component tolerances) then this will create a signal dependent error current, thereby generating distortion. Unfortunately, the negative feedback loop of the amplifier can't correct for this distortion as it can't see the error on the summing nodes. So there will always be a limit to the performance. With SE operation, this problem does not occur, as the differential input stage is clamped to ground.
  
 Now DAC designers are well aware of this - that's why all high performance DAC's use two single ended I to V converters from the current OP of the DAC's, then use a differential to SE converter to create the voltage OP. There are other reasons for doing this as well, as the DAC requires a very low impedance virtual ground for low distortion, and you can only get this using dual SE amps - another problem is RF and its much easier to decouple SE than differentially - this in turn creates a lot more noise floor modulation, making it sound less smooth.
  
 But for me the most important is transparency. I had an amp that had two modes - differential or SE - listening in balanced mode flattened the sound stage depth dramatically,and it sounded harder, less smooth. That said, there are circumstances when balanced operation can be better than SE, for example when you are looking at connecting a pre-amp to a power amp, and what is best depends upon particular circumstances. In short, if SE operation is noisy, try balanced.
  
 Rob


----------



## goobicii

rob watts said:


> Its absolutely not class D - like Hugo, it has a single stage amplifier giving the OP and headphone drive together. The output is 6v RMS, so a bit more voltage than Hugo, but the same 0.5A RMS current.
> 
> Rob


 is it class A? Does it use feedback? its current amplified or normal voltage


----------



## Rob Watts

I will be talking about the amplifier stage soon.
  
 Rob


----------



## Shini44

rob watts said:


> I will be talking about the amplifier stage soon.
> 
> Rob


 
 at that cost the amp section should sound better and higher quality than my 2000$ amp, i mean it seriously should....
  
 else you guys (at this price) should have gone for a DAC only DAVE and made the it (price wise) more obtainable by us head-fiers who can afford most of the high end gear.


----------



## Beolab

Any listening impressions of the DAVE at CANJAM 2015 in London yet?? 

Please share your thoughts here if so.. !


----------



## audiobill

According to a previous post the first active demo of the Chord DAVE DAC is planned to be at Audio Show East on September 4th and 5th. I have to remember that patience is a virtue!


----------



## bmichels

Now we have 3 super TOL DAC that offer a very serious Headphone-out :  TotalDac D1,  NAGRA HD DAC and the DAVE.
  
 - I tested the headphone OUT of the TotalDAC D-1 Dual, and it was EXCELLENT with a HD800 and also another headfier uses it with his ABYSS !! (on the XLR Balanced output instead of the SE JACK in order to get 6 volts)
  
  
  
 - I also tested the headphone output of the NAGRA HD DAC with my LCD-X and is was also excellent. And  6Moon recommend it with the HD800. Same for Hifi+.
  
     ->  does someone know the specs of the NAGRA internal headphone AMP ? do you know if it makes usage of the vacum Tube inside the DAC ? 
  
  
  
 - So, now the question becomes: *how good and powerful is the headphone-out of DAVE ?* Can it drive also an ABYSS to it's full potential  ?   Is it more powerfull than the TT headphone-out ?


----------



## goobicii

bmichels

Please try one thing,I suspect that Vega might have enough power to drive LCD X without any amp,its Orfeo output 1 ohm impedance and 4.5v in balanced output.It have two three pin male XLR output for balanced signal and your LCD X cable have one 4 pin male,I suggest get 4 short copper wires and connect them in non permanent way with glue or tape between Vega and LCD,3 + 3 is 6 not 4 like your audeze cable,one pin in each 3 pin xlr vega output is for electrical grounding so leave them alone,know whitch one they are becose if you accidently connect ground to lcd 3 you get no sound


----------



## goobicii

Rob Watts,how much bit and khz/mhz do these Pulse Array have in Dave? For example other PWM sigma deltas have 5 bit 1.5mhz,I think I reed somewhere yours have much more mhz,so how much is it?


----------



## Rob Watts

Its 5 bits at 104 MHz, 17th order. The noise shaper gives 350dB THD and noise digital domain performance - that's way better than usual (140 dB is typical).
  
 The noise shaper will resolve an audio signal to 48 bit accuracy.
  
 Rob


----------



## bmichels

Rob, 
  
 H*ow powerful is the headphone-out of DAVE ?* Are there some specs published yet ?
  
 Can it drive also ABYSS to it's full potential  ?   Is it much more powerful than the TT headphone-out ?  
  
 And compared to the headphone out  of the  NAGRA HD DAC or of the TotalDAC D1-Dual headphone out (which is on the back, and VERY powerful) ?
  
 Thansk


----------



## goobicii

Rob Watts,thats awesome,thats highest data output dac that I know.
  
 One thing worries me,you create best dac in the world but its all limited by the output stage/preamp/headphone amp.I worry especialy about crosstalk,how much crosstalk will dave have between 20hz and 16000hz? I cant hear higher than 16khz 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Also how much noise will there be once it comes out of the preamp/headamp in the DAVE?


----------



## JaZZ

goobicii said:


> Rob Watts,thats awesome,thats highest data output dac that I know.
> 
> One thing worries me,you create best dac in the world but* its all limited by the output stage/preamp/headphone amp*. I worry especialy about crosstalk,how much crosstalk will dave have between 20hz and 16000hz? I cant hear higher than 16khz
> 
> ...


 
  
 What do you mean by that?


----------



## goobicii

jazz said:


> What do you mean by that?


 
  
 modern high end DACs arent in my opinion limited by the dac chip inteslf but by the analog output stage/pre amp or headamp thats in the DAC
  
 most manufacturers list fantastic specs and they are not lying but what the DAC spits out after output stage into dedicated amp or headphone is degraded by the amplification.The dac chips themself make very little power,it needs to amplified and that adds noise.Another thing is you can theoreticaly make xilinx FPGA + dac combo capable of 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999db dynamic range but thats all limited by how good the power supply is,last thing,many amps and dacs suffer from crosstalk.If something have -90db crosstalk that doesnt rise within audible range thats good performance.For me crosstalk is just another form of distortion,so dac that measures 130db signal to noise but have -70db crosstalk at 18khz is in my book a 70db dynamic range not 130db.Best option is monoblock,some dacs like VEGA have monoblock like crosstalk performance,but that is very rare.
  
 Yggy have perfect theoretical chips but the cheap 2200 dollar execution left it with 90db crosstalk so in reality its 15bit dac,an example how output stage and powersupply can affect theoreticaly superb chips
  
  
 DAVE in my opinion have theoretical potential to be best dac ever made,I repeat that,most accurate most advanced dac on this planet ever created,but that all can be destroyed by output stage and powersupply that isnt perfect.


----------



## JaZZ

goobicii said:


> *modern high end DACs arent in my opinion limited by the dac chip intself but by the analog output stage/pre amp or headamp that's in the DAC*
> 
> most manufacturers list fantastic specs and they are not lying but what the DAC spits out after output stage into dedicated amp or headphone is degraded by the amplification.The dac chips themself make very little power,it needs to amplified and that adds noise.Another thing is you can theoreticaly make xilinx FPGA + dac combo capable of 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999db dynamic range but thats all limited by how good the power supply is,last thing,many amps and dacs suffer from crosstalk.If something have -90db crosstalk that doesnt rise within audible range thats good performance.For me crosstalk is just another form of distortion,so dac that measures 130db signal to noise but have -70db crosstalk at 18khz is in my book a 70db dynamic range not 130db.Best option is monoblock,some dacs like VEGA have monoblock like crosstalk performance,but that is very rare.
> 
> Yggy have perfect theoretical chips but the cheap 2200 dollar execution left it with 90db crosstalk so in reality its 15bit dac,an example how output stage and powersupply can affect theoreticaly superb chips


 
  
 I still don't get what your concern is – technically. Why is the Dave limited in this respect? As I see it, one of its main advantages is that its DAC renounces an additional amplification stage for headphone and preamp purposes.
  
 So in the end it has to do with crosstalk?


----------



## goobicii

jazz said:


> I still don't get what your concern is – technically. Why is the Dave limited in this respect? As I see it, one of its main advantages is that its DAC renounces an additional amplification stage for headphone and preamp purposes.
> 
> So in the end it has to do with crosstalk?


 
  
 I dont understand you,ask that question again?


----------



## OK-Guy

< educational mode


----------



## goobicii

ok-guy said:


> < educational mode


 
  
 ehh,this might be SHOCKING to you but one channel might module other one through power supply for example.
  
 also output stage,preamp and amp is really the same thing,a signal amplifier,it always distorts and create noise.There is only one DAC in the world that doesnt have output stage and doesnt have common powersupply at the same time,the TotalDac Twelve,its two monoblocks and it chips put out enough juice so no op amp or discrete output stage is needed.DAVE isnt monoblock and as far as I know for it to even power amplifier a output stage/pre amp/head amp,call it whatever its same thing,is build in it.
  
 if DAVE manages to 20bit REAL signal to crosstalk/noise/thd ratio at the output,I am going to be happy,if it manage 21bit I am going to be in state of ecstasy.


----------



## joeexp

goobicii said:


> ehh,this might be SHOCKING to you but one channel might module other one through power supply for example.
> 
> also output stage,preamp and amp is really the same thing,a signal amplifier,it always distorts and create noise.There is only one DAC in the world that doesnt have output stage and doesnt have common powersupply at the same time,the TotalDac Twelve,its two monoblocks and it chips put out enough juice so no op amp or discrete output stage is needed.DAVE isnt monoblock and as far as I know for it to even power amplifier a output stage/pre amp/head amp,call it whatever its same thing,is build in it.
> 
> if DAVE manages to 20bit REAL signal to crosstalk/noise/thd ratio at the output,I am going to be happy,if it manage 21bit I am going to be in state of ecstasy.


 

 What are you getting your knickers into twist for???
 Nobody has heard DAVE, nor have there any details about the amp stage been released.
  
 Chill man ...


----------



## OK-Guy

goobicii said:


> ehh,this might be SHOCKING to you but one channel might module other one through power supply for example.
> 
> also output stage,preamp and amp is really the same thing,a signal amplifier,it always distorts and create noise.There is only one DAC in the world that doesnt have output stage and doesnt have common powersupply at the same time,the TotalDac Twelve,its two monoblocks and it chips put out enough juice so no op amp or discrete output stage is needed.DAVE isnt monoblock and as far as I know for it to even power amplifier a output stage/pre amp/head amp,call it whatever its same thing,is build in it.
> 
> if DAVE manages to 20bit REAL signal to crosstalk/noise/thd ratio at the output,I am going to be happy,if it manage 21bit I am going to be in state of ecstasy.


 
  
 think I need some more popcorn... this could be interesting.
  
 btw... I'm one of the 'technically unchallenged'... by that I mean 'I haven't got a clue technology wise' but people are on my case to get ed-u-cated, so I eat popcorn in retaliation...


----------



## bmichels

ok-guy said:


> think I need some more popcorn... this could be interesting.
> 
> btw... I'm one of the 'technically unchallenged'... by that I mean 'I haven't got a clue technology wise' but people are on my case to get ed-u-cated, so I eat popcorn in retaliation...


 
  
 In the mean time, I can confirm that *TotalDac D-1's Headphone* Out is VERY powerful (capable of driving an ABYSS) and Very very Good (very precise) : I remember that my friend's HD800 connected direct to his TotalDAC D1-Dual headphone-out was better (to me and to my friend) than with his Cavalli LAU in between ! He was at shock since he just bought the Cavalli Amp !  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




The Sound much more precise without the Cavalli, and still we had plenty power to spare.
  
 As for the *NAGRA's headphone-out*, I did not get so much quality listening since it was at a dealer's shop, but I remember that I did not had so much extra power to drive the LCD-X. So, may be the NAGRA headphone-out is less powerful than the TotalDac headphone out ? I can't really tell.. (headphones and musics were not the same !)


----------



## goobicii

thats ridiculous,you guys have no idea about output stages or sources of crosstalk,I think you probably dont even know what crosstalk is or how much crosstalk dacs usualy have.Yet you act like if I am wrong and that this talk about noise and crosstalk from analog components is so stupid its funny
  
 you know whats funny OK-Guy? I want to buy DAVE,and you know what will I do? I send it to Tyll from Innerfidelity so he measure it with his Audio Precision.I am very curious how it is going to compare to Yggdrasil and Vega whitch he have at the moment for testing.If the crosstalk or thd or noise is going to be anything less than  3500 dollar Vega then I am going to quote these posts you made and link the measurements from Innerfidelity.


----------



## JaZZ

goobicii said:


> thats ridiculous,you guys have no idea about output stages or sources of crosstalk,I think you probably dont even know what crosstalk is or how much crosstalk dacs usualy have.Yet you act like if I am wrong and that this talk about noise and crosstalk from analog components is so stupid its funny
> 
> you know whats funny OK-Guy? I want to buy DAVE,and you know what will I do? I send it to Tyll from Innerfidelity so he measure it with his Audio Precision.I am very curious how it is going to compare to Yggdrasil and Vega whitch he have at the moment for testing.If the crosstalk or thd or noise is going to be anything less than  3500 dollar Vega then I am going to quote these posts you made and link the measurements from Innerfidelity.


 
  
 Wait – nobody has said you're wrong! Where do you get that from? You're just hard to understand – at least for me.


----------



## Rob Watts

Crosstalk per se is not important - but crosstalk non-linearity is. If I remember correctly, crosstalk was 120dB, which is fine. And negligible non-linearity. 
  
 Distortion components are all below -150dB, so better than 24 bits. Noise is 21 bits. But these numbers, although very important, won't tell you how good it sounds. Noise floor modulation, which is important, is un-measurable, and with my APX555 the noise floor is at -180dB.
  
 As to headphone drive - same current as TT, more voltage (>6v RMS) very much lower THD into low impedance loads.
  
 Rob


----------



## JaZZ

Thank you!
  
 I'm interested in the Dave – as it sounds like it sounds good.


----------



## goobicii

rob watts said:


> Crosstalk per se is not important - but crosstalk non-linearity is. If I remember correctly, crosstalk was 120dB, which is fine. And negligible non-linearity.
> 
> Distortion components are all below -150dB, so better than 24 bits. Noise is 21 bits. But these numbers, although very important, won't tell you how good it sounds. Noise floor modulation, which is important, is un-measurable, and with my APX555 the noise floor is at -180dB.
> 
> ...


 
  
 you cant even have 22bit becose of thermal noise within audible range at room temperature,if I remember the limit is 130db at 20khz,so these are extremly good numbers,very excited,thank you Rob
  
 I want to ask,I want to produce music,I was thinking how much will DAVE benefit if fed with 32bit audio vs 24bit,people gonna jump here and tell me about 20bit limit of ADC but I make pure synthethic music so that does not apply it my case.So if I feed DAVE with 32bit is it worth over 24bit?


----------



## bmichels

rob watts said:


> Crosstalk per se is not important - but crosstalk non-linearity is. If I remember correctly, crosstalk was 120dB, which is fine. And negligible non-linearity.
> 
> Distortion components are all below -150dB, so better than 24 bits. Noise is 21 bits. But these numbers, although very important, won't tell you how good it sounds. Noise floor modulation, which is important, is un-measurable, and with my APX555 the noise floor is at -180dB.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Rob.
  
*Will DAVE be at CanJam London* end of August in a listenable set-up ?     *What is the voltage output of HUGO *(to compare with the >6v of DAVE, since I owe a HUGO)


----------



## agisthos

I think all goobicii is trying to say -- is that the analog output stage and power supply can make the best digital stage in the world sound bad, and conversely it can make an average digital stage sound very good.
  
 Too many DAC's designers are great with software control, but then feed the output through some op-amps fed by cheap linear power regulators. i.e you have massively compromised the excellent digital work.
  
 btw goobicii, its not just the TotalDAC 12 that has no output stage, I'm fairly sure the Trinity DAC does not either. Maybe this design aspect is very important (R2R with no output filter) when you consider both these dac's are regarded as the best in the world by those who can afford anything (and you will need to be this sort of person to afford either of them).
  
 Anyway l am looking forward to the DAVE, possibly state of the art but within reach of the average audiophile. I can't wait for Rob to go into some detail about it's analog stage and how it works...


----------



## bmichels

Now *a question from the GEEK inside*:  Is there inside DAVE a simple 12 volt (or whatever voltage) DC coming from the AC power supply on which we could connect a (BIG) battery system to bypass the AC power and make DAVE able to operate on battery when it is away from the main.  I know this seems ridiculous 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I agree, but sometime, I am in the garden far away from any main....
  
  
 or... does someone know a "compact" UPS that can provide, from a battery, some good *and clean* AC curent ?


----------



## OK-Guy

goobicii said:


> you know whats funny OK-Guy? I want to buy DAVE,and you know what will I do?


 
  
 hopefully you'll buy Dave to enjoy it... can't think of a better reason but hey that's me... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 to be honest technology leaves me a bit cold but I try to get my head around things by reading post and trying to make sense of what's said... I may throw in a bit of ironic wit along the way as I like to poke fun at my ineptness afterall when I'm surrounded by the like of John Franks, Rob Watts, Matt & Smiley do I really need to learn when I have all this technical expertise at my knobbly elbow?... to learn or not to learn that is the question...


----------



## goobicii

ok-guy said:


> hopefully you'll buy Dave to enjoy it... can't think of a better reason but hey that's me...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 ohhh ok,I thought you was making fun out of me.Yes! Plan to buy this,I dont want any of these warm colored dacs,I want ultimate precision and the 100mhz 5 bit pulse array and 164000 taps FPGA filter are world records in technology,I honestly believe this DAVE might be best dac ever made,the theory,the science,the logic,it have it all,only thing it needs is perfect execution so the analog components dont hold it back


----------



## OK-Guy

goobicii said:


> ohhh ok,I thought you was making fun out of me.


 
  
 not at all, being ironically challenged is an English trait, kinda weird helping a company at the forefront of technology like Chord when everything technology wise leaves me scratching my bonce, at least we have music in common... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Game of Thrones anyone?...


----------



## Rob Watts

April for season 6 GOT is a long time to wait....


----------



## rkt31

few queries about dave, 1) hugo has rca and headphone out connected together and the output varies upto 4.5 volt . in case of dave whether the headphone out and rca out are same like in hugo ? xlr has 6 volt out, is this maximum ? if that so rca out will be 3 volt max in dave ?  btw i used hugo direct into benchmark ahb2 with lowest gain of 9.2db and the results are too good right from the start.


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes Dave has same headphone OP as line level like Hugo. XLR is up to 12v RMS but is not intended to drive headphones. RCA is up to 6v RMS.
  
 Rob


----------



## ubs28

bmichels said:


> Thanks Rob.
> 
> *Will DAVE be at CanJam London* end of August in a listenable set-up ?     *What is the voltage output of HUGO *(to compare with the >6v of DAVE, since I owe a HUGO)


 

 I read somewhere that the Chord Hugo does 5v RMS?


----------



## ubs28

rob watts said:


> Yes Dave has same headphone OP as line level like Hugo. XLR is up to 12v RMS but is not intended to drive headphones. RCA is up to 6v RMS.
> 
> Rob


 

 Maybe a silly question since Dave is a Dac, but can the Dave drive headphones as good like the Taurus MK II or GS-X? 
  
 I was thinking of adding a dedicated amplifier for my Chord Hugo since some people on this forum say you need a dedicated amplifier for the HD800. If Dave does the trick, maybe I'll just get Dave.


----------



## Rob Watts

At 1% THD and full batteries its actually 5.4v RMS into 300 ohm load. Dave will be more than 6v 1% rated.
  
 Rob


----------



## rkt31

thanks a lot for such a quick response !


----------



## rkt31

thanks a lot rob for such a quick response !


----------



## goobicii

rob watts said:


> At 1% THD and full batteries its actually 5.4v RMS into 300 ohm load. Dave will be more than 6v 1% rated.
> 
> Rob


 
  
  
 will driving less impedance headphone lower THD?  I want to use LCD-X,its 20 ohm


----------



## gzone3lement

I hope Chord Dave comes in black too. Some additional shades of red to complement Headamp GS-X would be awesome!


----------



## OK-Guy

​  ​           ​  
  
*CanJam London*​  ​ *Date: Saturday 29th - Sunday 30th*​  ​ *Venue: Hotel Russell*​ *Russell Square, London WC1*​  ​ *Nearest  Tube: Russell Square (Piccadilly-Line)*​  ​ *Chord Electronics is a proud Sponsor of the inaugural*​ *CanJam-London Event*​  ​ *We will have the Chord Hugo, Chord Hugo-TT & Chord 2Qute on display with Headphones from Beyerdynamic, Grado Labs, Rhapsodio & Dita Audio*​  ​ *John Franks & Rob Watts will be in attendance along with the team from Chord Electronics*​  ​ *Tickets:* http://www.eventbrite.com/e/canjam-london-2015-tickets-16567663327​  ​ ​


----------



## Jiffi32

Is Dave not going to be there then?


----------



## audiobill

It was previously stated that DAVE will make its first active appearance at Audio Show East on Sept. 4th and 5th. It would be nice to please get confirmation of that plan at this point. I'm counting the days to hear people's impressions of it!


----------



## OK-Guy

jiffi32 said:


> Is Dave not going to be there then?


 
  
 unfortunately not, DAVE is in prototype testing at present and not quite ready at this point in time, hth...


----------



## OK-Guy

audiobill said:


> It was previously stated that DAVE will make its first active appearance at Audio Show East on Sept. 4th and 5th. It would be nice to please get confirmation of that plan at this point. I'm counting the days to hear people's impressions of it!


 
  
 I'll ask after CanJam, the person I need to talk to at Chord is on holiday this week, I'll update you when I know, hth...


----------



## Jiffi32

audiobill said:


> It was previously stated that DAVE will make its first active appearance at Audio Show East on Sept. 4th and 5th. It would be nice to please get confirmation of that plan at this point. I'm counting the days to hear people's impressions of it!


 
  
 I've got my ticket for A S E and am impatiently waiting for sept 4th!!


----------



## Jiffi32

Signals HiFi
36 mins · Edited ·  





  Confirmation today that Chord Electronics will definitely have Dave (it's a DAC) at Audio Show East. As I understand it, this is the first UK demonstration of this keenly anticipated product. Not that this matters to our frail, miserable egos in any way. Nope, not at all. signals.uk.com/show
  




 Now I'm counting down the days!!


----------



## audiobill

Only 10 more days, the end is now in sight! Thanks very much for your confirmation.


----------



## OK-Guy

just like to re-iterate that DAVE is in 'prototype testing' and may not be ready in time for 'Audio Show East', hth.


----------



## bmichels

ok-guy said:


> just like to re-iterate that DAVE is in 'prototype testing' and may not be ready in time for 'Audio Show East', hth.




Dear Mr SantaChord,

If DAVE is still in prototype phase, is it still possible to add a 12volts DC input in addition to the AC input so that people who want to go even further can use a (big) *battery based PSU* to isolate DAVE totaly from the pollution of the main ( or... to make it transportable, usable *away from the main  

I* know I am Crazy ( like most people here , but.... I need the very best battery operated TRANSPORTABLE system. Some sort of "super TT"


----------



## rkt31

just a curiosity, the fpga tech used in CHORD hugo or dave may some time in future be used to make vinyl master for modern native digital recording, considering the extreme transparency these dacs offer !  are there any such plans by chord ?


----------



## ChordElectronics

rkt31 said:


> just a curiosity, the fpga tech used in CHORD hugo or dave may some time in future be used to make vinyl master for modern native digital recording, considering the extreme transparency these dacs offer !  are there any such plans by chord ?


 

 Great idea, but currently we cannot confirm any such plans. What I can say is that Hugo is already being used in recording studios and mastering houses.


----------



## Jiffi32

Chord Electronics
2 hrs ·




  So now that a great CanJam has finished it's swiftly onto the next! With the first public demonstration of Dave we hope to see you there folks! Audio Show East show here we come!
http://www.signals.uk.com/audioshoweast201.html
  






Audio Show East September 2015 Ipswich
 Audio Show East 2015 | powered by Signals. Our third year of holding the annual audio show at Trinity Park, Ipswich, 4th and 5th September. Free entry and free draw entry (good prizes) for those who pre-register.
   signals.uk.com
  










  
 Copied from Chord's Facebook Feed


----------



## OK-Guy

​  ​  ​ *Chord Electronics will be exhibiting following products at Audio Show East :-*​  ​ *Hugo, Hugo-TT & 2Qute and two new products - *​ *Chord 2800 MK11 Amplifier (with built-in DAC) and eagerly awaited flagship DAVE (Pre-Amp DAC)*​  ​ *In a supporting role will be Headphone products from Beyerdynamic, Audioquest, Dita Audio & Rhapsodio.*​  ​ *Systems will feature PMC Speakers - Fact 12 & Twenty-26 *​  ​  ​ _*Please Note*_*: the Chord DAVE being exhibited at 'Audio Show East' is one of the 'working pre-production units' and not the final signed-off version, the only way to listen to DAVE is by attending the Event.*​  ​ *Chord's event Team are Colin & Tom  *​  ​ *Show website/registration/tickets:* http://www.signals.uk.com/audioshoweast201.html​  ​  ​


----------



## audiobill

Since it's now in pre-production form, is there an update as to when DAVE is expected to become available for sale? Looking forward to impressions from Audio Show East!


----------



## OK-Guy

audiobill said:


> Since it's now in pre-production form, is there an update as to when DAVE is expected to become available for sale? Looking forward to impressions from Audio Show East!


 
  
 it won't be released for general sale until all testing is done... not long now, hth...


----------



## Beolab

audiobill said:


> Since it's now in pre-production form, is there an update as to when DAVE is expected to become available for sale? Looking forward to impressions from Audio Show East!




In November...


----------



## OK-Guy

my error, got the first & last page mixed up, opps.


----------



## OK-Guy

​  ​ *Meet DAVE*​  ​ ​  ​ *Set-Up at Audio Show East*​  ​ ​  ​ *showing the modular-stand with integra-legs*​  ​ ​  ​ *Chord's event Team are Colin & Tom  *​  ​ *Show website/registration/tickets:* http://www.signals.uk.com/audioshoweast201.html​  ​  ​  ​


----------



## Jiffi32

Sitting listening to DAVE at Audio Show East


----------



## audiobill

Hoping to hear that listeners find it to be a revolutionary advance in digital reproduction, as our expectations about DAVE are very high. It shouldn't just sound like another very good DAC, but easily exceeding anything we've ever heard to this point from digital. Standing by for any listener reports, TIA!


----------



## TokenGesture




----------



## Beolab

jiffi32 said:


> Sitting listening to DAVE at Audio Show East




And what is your thoughts about DAVE then? 

I know its hard to not have any Hugo or other DAC to compare it with so its hard to hear what the DAVE deliver vs the rest of the Chord equipment and PWC speakers in the rig, if they don't demo with a A+B listening. 

But please wright your listening impressions


----------



## Beolab

Its more than 3 hours ago you wrote @Jiffi32 that you had a listening on DAVE, or are you still stuck in the chair paralysed by the sound?  

Everyone sitting with their popcorn and waiting on you


----------



## audiobill

Jiffi32 must have reached a state of nirvana from listening to DAVE, so it may take him a while to regain his senses enough to be able to report here.


----------



## TokenGesture

audiobill said:


> Jiffi32 must have reached a state of nirvana from listening to DAVE, so it may take him a while to regain his senses enough to be able to report here.


 

 I heard he was never seen again, transported to some extra-dimensional realm of pure sound by the power of DAVE


----------



## OK-Guy

tokengesture said:


> I heard he was never seen again, transported to some extra-dimensional realm of pure sound by the power of DAVE


 
  
 don't you just hate it when someone falls to survive the job, I'll get a replacement sent in tomorrow to report back... we should expect more casualties...


----------



## audiobill

The first report was ~40 minutes ago from their Facebook page, *Billy Antwick* - "Dave is Awesome!!" I'd like to get some more details but it's a start...


----------



## audiobill

Jiffi32's comments found on CA site: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/uptone-audio-regen-power-supply-add-24963/index14.html#post462212
 "Also have just spent Afternoon listening to DAVE at Audio Show East. All I can say is that the Chord Dave will blow you away!!! It is an amazing DAC 





"


----------



## Jiffi32

Have spent over 4 hours today listening to Dave 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
 Arrived just as doors opened at 12. Room was empty with just Colin running things. Turns out Colin and I share a very similar taste in music so was able to listen to lots of music I am very familiar with.
  I own a hugo and love it.... UNTIL I heard DAVE!! 
 Its like going from listening to music on my nokia phone to listening on Hugo. There is just MORE of EVERYTHING. 
 Colin played a track on the DSX1000 then repeated same track on DAVE.  What a jump forward over QBD76 tech.
 Dave makes Hugo sound a bit tame a bit boring in comparison (and Hugo is not in anyway boring and uninvolving!)
 Dave is a GAME CHANGER. If you are anywhere near Suffolk go and listen to Dave tomorrow at the show!!
  
 Hate to sound like a fanboy but Dave is that good. And sorry I am not very good with describing sound
 I now have to work out how to find the money to buy a Dave.


----------



## JaZZ

Great to hear!


----------



## Jiffi32

Colin said that Dave's are currently in production for dealers dem units and all being well should be arriving in dem rooms by oct/nov.


----------



## Beolab

jiffi32 said:


> Have spent over 4 hours today listening to Dave  .
> Arrived just as doors opened at 12. Room was empty with just Colin running things. Turns out Colin and I share a very similar taste in music so was able to listen to lots of music I am very familiar with.
> I own a hugo and love it.... UNTIL I heard DAVE!!
> Its like going from listening to music on my nokia phone to listening on Hugo. There is just MORE of EVERYTHING.
> ...




Nice to here, it is a game breaker in the DAC segment, that wipes the floor with all of the other High End brands tech/spec wise.

Where the jump as big btw the DSX1000 (QBD76) vs DAVE as with HUGO vs DAVE in your opinion?


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

beolab said:


> Nice to here, it is a game breaker in the DAC segment, that wipes the floor with all of the other High End brands tech/spec wise.
> 
> Where the jump as big btw the DSX1000 (QBD76) vs DAVE as with HUGO vs DAVE in your opinion?


 

 And Blu with QBD76 connected with twin digital BNC coax or AES/EBU XLR inputs to give 176kHz sampling rate !


----------



## audiobill

Hasn't anyone else been able to hear DAVE at Audio Show East? I thought we'd see a lot more comments on its performance by now. TIA


----------



## Jiffi32

It's quite a small event, but today is going to be busier than friday


----------



## Jiffi32

beolab said:


> Nice to here, it is a game breaker in the DAC segment, that wipes the floor with all of the other High End brands tech/spec wise.
> 
> Where the jump as big btw the DSX1000 (QBD76) vs DAVE as with HUGO vs DAVE in your opinion?


 

 I Dem'd the dsx1000 originally and found it slightly better than hugo, but decided to go with hugo and wait for what turned out to be Dave.
 Sitting listening to my hugo today and listening to music that I listened to yesterday on Dave. Even on an unfamiliar system Dave is far more emotionally engaging than hugo. Soundstage depth on Dave is massive, focus and solidity are also greatly improved.
 I think I have Dave withdrawal


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

jiffi32 said:


> I Dem'd the dsx1000 originally and found it slightly better than hugo, but decided to go with hugo and wait for what turned out to be Dave.
> Sitting listening to my hugo today and listening to music that I listened to yesterday on Dave. Even on an unfamiliar system Dave is far more emotionally engaging than hugo. *Soundstage depth* on Dave i*s massive, focus and solidity* are also greatly improved.
> I think I have Dave withdrawal


 
  
 Sounds like my Blu & QBD76 linked to my KGST to my 009's


----------



## Beolab

jiffi32 said:


> I Dem'd the dsx1000 originally and found it slightly better than hugo, but decided to go with hugo and wait for what turned out to be Dave.
> Sitting listening to my hugo today and listening to music that I listened to yesterday on Dave. Even on an unfamiliar system Dave is far more emotionally engaging than hugo. Soundstage depth on Dave is massive, focus and solidity are also greatly improved.
> I think I have Dave withdrawal




Sounds like the DAVE is a breakthrough! 

My QBD76 Coral stand is alu silver but i think a black DAVE ould be the winner!?


----------



## Jiffi32

Totally agree black is definitely the better finish, dial and buttons will be silver


----------



## lovethatsound

beolab said:


> Sounds like the DAVE is a breakthrough!
> 
> My QBD76 Coral stand is alu silver but i think a black DAVE ould be the winner!?


So would you say,dave is alot better than the Hugo,bearing in mind that the Hugo is £1400 and dave is £8000.also did you listen 2 dave with the chord blu transport?and if so did it sound alot better than the qdb76 with the chord blu transport?


----------



## highfell

So I attended the Audio Show in the East of England and was fortunate to be there for the worldwide launch of Dave from Chord on its second day. Apparently there are only two presently in the country only, the one I heard and one with the no cover which is with Rob to tweak. 

Their sales director Colin hosted a one hour demonstration. Members of the audience chose the following tracks :

Track from So - Gabriel
Bijou - Queen
"Heavy rock" - Royal Blood
Territories - Rush
Second track of Quadraphenia by the Who
Many Rivers to Cross - Joe Cocker
Man Machine - Kraftwork : some of the electronic bits sounded gorgeous
Wrong - Depeche Mode : lots of complex stuff going on, deep bass, electronic really enjoyed it
Piano concerto - sounded very analogue, just like the pianist was in the room, fluid like running water, echo/sustain like a real piano
Wonderful World - Ottis Reading
Babylon Sisters - Groucho - Steely Dan
Tango in the night - Fleetwood Mac

Dave was played through PMC Fact 12 Speakers (£12,000 speakers), which were never going to be too shabby.

So how did Dave sound.

* Very clean sound. It just had musicality
* Not harsh
* Fabulously expansive sound stage
* Easy ability to deal with the wide dynamic range of the music being played. 
* It was like a Hugo on steroids



As the audience chose a track each there was as you can see very varied music but Dave wasn't phased by anything thrown at it. It just dealt with everything effortlessly and the 60 mins just shot by. It was just wonderful to listen to.

There was no A/B comparison with Hugo, but I can only state how good it sounded. I have to say that the piano solo piece really surprised me. It really showed the class of Dave.

Do I want one - Yes I do.


----------



## Beolab

Thanks for the nice wright up! 

Its funny you say; "Dave handled all sorts of misic"  

Im going to be a little picky here, because after all they did not do a A+B comparison, so it is impossible to recognise and isolate just DAVE in the signal path. So most likley you liked the sound of the speakers and the rest of the pakage including the DAVE. 

I will take all statments with a grain of salt before i here someone who have actually herard a proper A+B comparison, because it is impossible to say A was better than 
B if you only have heard A.


----------



## TokenGesture

Also not enough acoustic stuff. Interesting you praised the solo piano as it with acoustic instruments that you can really hear the lifelike quality of Hugo.


----------



## Jiffi32

There was a comparison on Friday going from DSX1000 to Dave and the improvement was night and day. The DSX is a marginal improvement over hugo.
 Colin said that Dave will be in dealers late oct/nov if all goes to plan.


----------



## lovethatsound

Hi chord,I'd like 2 ask you a question if i may.On the QBD 76 you have 2 AES balanced inputs so you can run in DUAL DATA Mode from the blu cd transport,I'm using this method now and 2 me it sounds slightly better than using the coax DUAL INPUTS,but DAVE only has 1 AES balance input,so no DUAL up sampling from the BLU transport from the AES output 2 DAVE.Could this not be changed before DAVE went into production?I'm sure their's many chord blu user's out there who would appreciate being able 2 use DUAL OUTPUT from AES 2 DAVE.Thanks for your time.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

lovethatsound said:


> Hi chord,I'd like 2 ask you a question if i may.On the QBD 76 you have 2 AES balanced inputs so you can run in DUAL DATA Mode from the blu cd transport,I'm using this method now and 2 me it sounds slightly better than using the coax DUAL INPUTS,but DAVE only has 1 AES balance input,so no DUAL up sampling from the BLU transport from the AES output 2 DAVE.Could this not be changed before DAVE went into production?I'm sure their's many chord blu user's out there who would appreciate being able 2 use DUAL OUTPUT from AES 2 DAVE.Thanks for your time.


 

 A++   Totally agree.   The Blu is a great CD Transporter especially duel balanced out !


----------



## Beolab

bonesy jonesy said:


> A++   Totally agree.   The Blu is a great CD Transporter especially duel balanced out !




Most likley Chord resonate that CD is almost a dead format in 2-3 years time, and do not focus to be compatible with older products. 


And to them who are owning a QBD76 you can make it to upsample every input source you connect if you only split the signal, the QBD76 / DAVE upsample it x2 wich give you a little better signal to noise ratio.


----------



## highfell

beolab said:


> Thanks for the nice wright up!
> 
> Its funny you say; "Dave handled all sorts of misic"




Yep - It was just a random choice from the audience and it all sounded good.



> Im going to be a little picky here, because after all they did not do a A+B comparison, so it is impossible to recognise and isolate just DAVE in the signal path. So most likley you liked the sound of the speakers and the rest of the pakage including the DAVE.




They were never going to do a comparison with the Hugo or another bit of Chord kit.



> I will take all statments with a grain of salt before i here someone who have actually herard a proper A+B comparison, because it is impossible to say A was better than
> B if you only have heard A.




Agree - but I would reitterate it did sound good, really good -


----------



## ChordElectronics

lovethatsound said:


> Hi chord,I'd like 2 ask you a question if i may.On the QBD 76 you have 2 AES balanced inputs so you can run in DUAL DATA Mode from the blu cd transport,I'm using this method now and 2 me it sounds slightly better than using the coax DUAL INPUTS,but DAVE only has 1 AES balance input,so no DUAL up sampling from the BLU transport from the AES output 2 DAVE.Could this not be changed before DAVE went into production?I'm sure their's many chord blu user's out there who would appreciate being able 2 use DUAL OUTPUT from AES 2 DAVE.Thanks for your time.


 

 Just thought that I would update you. We know that quite a few of you have asked this question, and I can now confirm that Dave will allow you to run dual BNC. Hope this helps.


----------



## lovethatsound

chordelectronics said:


> Just thought that I would update you. We know that quite a few of you have asked this question, and I can now confirm that Dave will allow you to run dual BNC. Hope this helps.


Thanks for taking the time 2 let us know.


----------



## ChordElectronics

lovethatsound said:


> Thanks for taking the time 2 let us know.


 

 That's okay, we're here to help. I keep an eye on the forums for questions like these


----------



## bmichels

I was expecting MUCH more feed-back & comments about DAVE after it's first apparition ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Ideally I *would love to hear a comparaison with the NAGRA HD DAC..*..booth using their internal headphone-out


----------



## Beolab

The thread died after the Event mainly because they dident do any comparion btw Hugo and DAVE so its hard to tell what DAVE do with the sound isoalted, or because it wasn't the holy grail of sound everyone had expected.


----------



## OK-Guy

beolab said:


> The thread died after the Event mainly because they dident do any comparion btw Hugo and DAVE so its hard to tell what DAVE do with the sound isoalted, or because it wasn't the holy grail of sound everyone had expected.


 
  
 'Audio Show East' was for DAVE listening purposes only, I was quite specific that Dave was a ' working pre-production unit' and not the final 'retail version'... I doubt if any manufacturer would allow what is essentially a prototype to be judged against another product from their range... the listening sessions at ASE were a taster of things to come, best to leave assumed comments about performance until DAVE is finally released later in the year then people will be able to judge just how good the product is, hth.


----------



## Beolab

OT: 

@ChordElectronics

This is spooky: 

Last night i was listening on my Hugo and when i was finished with my listening i disconnected my headphones from my Hugo, but i did still hear the song i was playing!!?? 

Then i laid my ear on top of the Hugo and yes the quiet, but highly distorted song/sound came from the Hugo!? 
Is this normal or something wrong with the product?


----------



## Raika

what's the power of dave amp ? can it drive any headphones ?


----------



## Beolab

raika said:


> what's the power of dave amp ? can it drive any headphones ?





About 3 watts @ 40 Ohm according to Chord Support


----------



## StryGR

Cannot drive planar magnetics sufficiently. Not the Hifiman HE-6 for sure.


----------



## JaZZ

strygr said:


> Cannot drive planar magnetics sufficiently. Not the Hifiman HE-6 for sure.


 
  
 Don't know about the *HE-6*, but with its extremely low efficiency it isn't _the_ typical planar magnetic headphone. The *Hugo* with its 600 mW at 32 ohms drives the *HE1000* (34 ohms) effortlessly – so the *DAVE* will be overkill.


----------



## MacedonianHero

jazz said:


> Don't know about the *HE-6*, but with its extremely low efficiency it isn't _the_ typical planar magnetic headphone. The *Hugo* with its 600 mW at 32 ohms drives the *HE1000* (34 ohms) effortlessly – so the *DAVE* will be overkill.


 
  
 I haven't heard the Hugo with the HE1000s, but damn, just settling in to the Hugo TT desktop unit and HE1000s...wowza! First off, as a stand alone DAC, it's impressed the heck out of me after 2 nights, but tonight I thought I'd give the amp section a run with my most demanding headphones (from a power/efficiency standpoint) and it's not breaking a sweat making them sound spectacular!
  
 I have heard the original Hugo drive my LCD-X and TH900s and it was one helluva portable amp/DAC!
  
 Hope you're doing well Jazz.


----------



## pedalhead

Dave made an appearance at the National Audio Show in the UK this weekend. Definitely made my HE-1000s sing!  Some pics & brief impressions here.... http://www.head-fi.org/t/781533/national-audio-show-uk-2015-impressions


----------



## esimms86

So when are dealers going to start taking orders for Dave and when will Dave be shipping to the US?


----------



## ChordElectronics

esimms86 said:


> So when are dealers going to start taking orders for Dave and when will Dave be shipping to the US?


 
 You'll be pleased to know that our dealers in the US have already started taking orders. We're still finishing Dave off, but expect to begin shipping mid to late October.


----------



## Raika

can we see Rob watts talk about the new chord dave ?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

*This question is directed to Rob Watts (though others are of course welcome to comment)*
 I have been a fan of Chord equipment for many years now, having owned the Red Reference 1, 2 and 3 plus one of their current power amps. The sound is always clean, musical and well engineered. I am so taken by the specs and the logic of your work on DAVE that I am wondering if I bought the DAC and linked it digitally via my Red Reference 3 CD player would I still benefit from the benefits of this groundbreaking product?
  
 My concern is that the RR3 will up-sample the CD data and (I assume) use its own onboard clock in the process. Will this conflict or compromise the sound in any way?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Whilst we await more information and reviews on the new DAVE DAC I thought I would make an observation regarding the somewhat modest 44.1/16 protocol as an enduring delivery medium and why I belief in what Chord and Rob Watts are doing compared to some other solutions out there.
  
 Over the last 12-18 months it has become ever clearer that CD playback has been limited for decades by the D-A conversion process rather than an inherent lack of musical information stored on the medium. 44,100 samples per second is still a lot of information if you can present it properly I think. Some product providers have gone down a pure DSD route for up-sampling and playback of PCM data and there have been some rave reviews of products from DCS and PS Audio in particular more recently as they have shown there is far more information buried in the 44.1/16 format than we had previously realised. Meridian with their MQA software solution has also come to the same conclusion on PCM I believe. Others, like Chord, are finding their own proprietary new technology is delivering significant improvements too. In the past I have spent a huge amount of time auditioning front end products from well respected manufacturers like DCS, Meitner, Esoteric, Musical Fidelity, T&A to mention just a few. For my sins I was an SACD junkie for a while but I eventually concluded SACD/DSD had a flaw. To my ears DSD was not musical to the extent that PCM was musical. I wanted DSD to be the answer because I liked the way it imaged and presented itself but I found it drove me away from some of my favourite albums over time. The DSD versions just didn't touch me emotionally in the same way that PCM did. For those of you able to borrow copies, I would recommend listening to the SACD/DSD stereo mastering of Ryan Adams - Heartbreaker album compared to the Doug Sax mastering of the earlier CD only release. The SACD version simply has no soul (to my ears at least). The CD layer from the SACD came from the DSD master I believe and even the CD version is lifeless/unemotional. Somehow DSD had taken the life out of the recording. I stopped playing this recording some time ago thinking I had gone off the album. This is not an isolated case I would add. I have listened to very many SACD/DSD recordings over the years and over and over i found the same problem. Recently I re-purchased the Doug Sax PCM mastering (having previously given my original copy to a friend when I bought the SACD/CD) and found the Doug Sax CD version of Heartbreaker still delivered all that 'heartbreaking' emotion I first heard and loved. Even the dynamics on the DS mastering are exceptional in 16 bit. Of course we hear bad masterings of CD's as well from time to time but I do not find anywhere near the same propensity to fail to deliver musicality from the PCM based protocol. In short I tend to find DSD recordings lethargic and lacking real emotion or musical bounce, which is perhaps why DSD has established itself in the one HiRez genre where you can, to an extent, get away with limited musicality - Classical Music. For me musicality is the most important attribute of good hifi. That is what drew me to music in the first place. That is why I learned to play an instrument and why I have been buying Chord Electronics front ends. I am sure other brands out there deliver good musicality too but my point is, with the possible exception of Meitner who have recognised this fault in DSD and tried hard to really understand it rather than just throw a new expensive clock at the problem, I am still not seeing 'Musicality' heralded in the current rave reviews of 100% DSD up-sampling products. Like many others I have a very large and costly CD collection. CD's are PCM based and so it matters to me that I am buying into something that is designed to fully address the attributes of that protocol. I believe Rob Watts has been on the right track for some time with his ever improving WTA based solution. I look forward to listening to the DAVE DAC and reading some professional reviews too in due course.


----------



## joeexp

Apart from that there is less than 1% of recorded music available in DSD format - That really kills it for me...


----------



## OK-Guy

DaveRedRef-111... Rob's currently on his travels so there may be a delay in replying to your excellent informative post... it's well documented that Rob prefers Red-Book to other formats but I'm not in both your leagues so won't try to get into the technical malarkey... my thinking being if Obi-Rob says it the best route then that's the Yelllow-Brick Road I travel down, hth...


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

Also looking forward to hearing DAVE especially against my Blu CD Transporter twin output linked to my QBD76 DAC to give 176kHz up sampling rate (2 x 88kHz).  
  
 I think the Blu & QBD76 combo is up there with some of the best CD & direct digital sources.  It gives full musicality with superb definition, clarity and soundstage across all frequency ranges.   Its almost analogue / vinyl sounding without the clicks and pops and with greater clarity etc.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks for the information on Rob Watts movement ok-guy.
  
 BJ
 I guess if the Blu CD Transporter twin output linked to the QBD76 DAC was a good match then there may be hope for an RR3 + DAVE combination (fingers crossed).


----------



## Kakki

It looks like we have Dave in Tokyo International Audio Show 2015 in this weekend... what an exciting moment!!
 (Don't know if we can actually hear the real Dave sound though...)


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Btw just to clarify above, I mention the DSD mastering of Ryan Adams 'Heartbreaker' album. I meant the DSD Re-Mastering. I believe the original recording was all tape.


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## DaveRedRef-III

To continue the musicality theme I have found it interesting that there is an assumption in audio that musicality comes from good timing, hence DSD manufacturers have been using ever faster clocks to improve this weakness in the DSD format. However I have noticed that musicality can be affected significantly by placement/setup of 3 way speakers. How is this possible if it is all down to timing issues? A monitor speaker on the other hand is nigh on impossible to affect musicality in the setup. If the system is musical it pretty much stays musical whatever. I wonder if the complexity of 3 ways is showing us part of the answer. Could it be phase too that affects our perception of musicality. I seem to remember Rob mentioned recently that DAVE's sound stage goes deeper with PCM based material whilst DSD goes wider. Only phase can do this. Perhaps DSD has a skewed phase problem?


----------



## Rob Watts

kakki said:


> It looks like we have Dave in Tokyo International Audio Show 2015 in this weekend... what an exciting moment!!
> (Don't know if we can actually hear the real Dave sound though...)


 
 Yes John Franks is there with a Dave. It is very close (if not the final solution) to the eventual production standard for PCM but DSD does not have the new non decimating DSD filters - I only just managed to get the Xilinx to run two separate programs one for PCM and one for the non decimating DSD a couple of days ago.
  
 So I hope you can enjoy! We will both be in Jakarta in early October.
  
 Rob


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## Rob Watts

daveredref-iii said:


> To continue the musicality theme I have found it interesting that there is an assumption in audio that musicality comes from good timing, hence DSD manufacturers have been using ever faster clocks to improve this weakness in the DSD format. However I have noticed that musicality can be affected significantly by placement/setup of 3 way speakers. How is this possible if it is all down to timing issues? A monitor speaker on the other hand is nigh on impossible to affect musicality in the setup. If the system is musical it pretty much stays musical whatever. I wonder if the complexity of 3 ways is showing us part of the answer. Could it be phase too that affects our perception of musicality. I seem to remember Rob mentioned recently that DAVE's sound stage goes deeper with PCM based material whilst DSD goes wider. Only phase can do this. Perhaps DSD has a skewed phase problem?


 
 There are actually two independent issues going on with DSD that limits the musicality - and they are interlinked problems.
  
 The first issue is down to the resolving power of DSD. Now a DSD works by using a noise shaper, and a noise shaper is a feedback system. Indeed, you can think of an analogue amplifier as a first order noise shaper - so you have a subtraction input stage that compares the input to the output, followed by a gain stage that integrates the error. With a delta sigma noise shaper its exactly the same, but where the output stage is truncated to reduce the noise shaper output resolution so it can drive the OP - in the case of DSD its one bit, +1 or -1 op stage. But you use multiple gain stages connected together so you have n integrators - typically 5 for DSD. Now the number of integrators, together with the time constants will determine how much error correction you have within the system - and the time constants are primarily set by the over-sample rate of the noise shaper. Double the oversampling frequency and with a 5th order ideal system (i.e. one that does not employ resonators or other tricks to improve HF noise) it converges on a 30 dB improvement in distortion and noise.
  
 So where does lack of resolution leave us? Well any signal that is below the noise floor of the noise shaper is completely lost - this is completely unlike PCM where an infinitely small signal is still encoded within the noise when using correct dithering. With DSD any signal below the noise shaper noise floor is lost for good. Now these small signals are essential for the cues that the brain uses to get the perception of sound stage depth - and depth perception is a major problem with audio - conventional high end audio is incapable of reproducing a sense of space in the same way one can perceive natural sounds. Now whilst optimising Hugo's noise shaper I noticed two things - once the noise shaper performance hit 200 dB performance (that is THD and noise being -200 dB in the audio bandwidth as measured using digital domain simulation) then it no longer got smoother. So in terms of warmth and smoothness, 200 dB is good enough. But this categorically did not apply to the perception of depth, where making further improvements improved the perception of how deep instruments were (assuming they are actually recorded with depth like a organ in a cathedral or off stage effects in Mahler 2 for example. Given the size of the FPGA and the 4e pulse array 2048FS DAC, I got the best depth I could obtain.
  
 But with Dave, no such restriction on FPGA size applied, and I had a 20e pulse array DAC which innately has more resolution and allows smaller time constants for the integrator (so better performance). So I optimised it again, and kept on increasing the performance of the noise shaper - and the perception of depth kept on improving. After 3 months of optimising and redesigning the noise shaper I got to 360 dB performance - an extraordinary level, completely way beyond the performance of ordinary noise shapers. But what was curious was how easy it was to hear a 330 dB noise shaper against a 360 dB one - but only in terms of depth perception. My intellectual puzzle is whether this level of small signal accuracy is really needed, or whether these numbers are acting as a proxy for something else going on, perhaps within the analogue parts of the DAC - I am not sure on this point, something I will be researching. But for sure I have got the optimal performance from the noise shaper employed in Dave, and every DAC I have ever listened too shows similar behaviour.
  
 The point I am making over this is that DSD noise shapers for DSD 64 is only capable of 120 dB performance - and that is some 10 thousand times worse than Hugo - and a trillion times worse than Dave. And every time I hear DSD I always get the same problem o perception of depth - it sounds completely flat with no real sense of depth. Now regular 16 bit red book categorically does not suffer from this problem - an infinitely small signal will be perfectly encoded in a properly dithered system - it will just be buried within the noise.
  
 Now the second issue is timing. Now I am not talking about timing in terms of femtosecond clocks and other such nonsense - it always amuses me to see NOS DAC companies talking about femtosecond accuracy clocks when their lack of proper filtering generates hundreds of uS of timing problems on transients due to sampling reconstruction errors. What I am talking about is how accurately transients are timed against the original analogue signal in that the timing of transients is non-linear. Sometimes the transient will be at one point in time, other times delayed or advanced depending upon where the transient occurs against the sample time. In the case of PCM we have the timing errors of transients due to the lack of tap length in the FIR reconstruction filter. The mathematics is very clear cut - we need extremely long tap lengths to almost perfectly reconstruct the original timing of transients - and from listening tests I can hear a correlation between tap length and sound quality. With Dave I can still hear 100,000 taps increasing to 164,000 taps albeit I can now start to hear the law of diminishing returns. But we know for sure that increasing the tap length will mean that it would make absolutely no difference if it was sampled at 22 uS or 22 fS (assuming its a perfectly bandwidth limited signal). So red book is again limited on timing by the DAC not inherently within the format.
  
 Unfortunately, DSD also has its timing non-linearity issues but they are different to PCM. This problem has never been talked about before, but its something I have been aware of for a long time, and its one reason I uniquely run my noise shapers at 2048FS. When a large signal transient occurs - lets say from -1 to +1 then the time delay for the signal is small as the signal gets through the integrators and OP quantizer almost immediately. But for small signals, it can't get through the quantizer, and so it takes some time for a small negative signal changing to a positive signal to work its way through the integrators. You see these effects on simulation, where the difference of a small transient to a large transient is several uS for DSD64. 
  
 Now the timing non linearity of uS is very audible and it affects the ability of the brain to perceive the starting and stopping of instruments. Indeed, the major surprise of Hugo was how well one can perceive that starting and stopping of notes - it was much better than I expected, and at the time I was perplexed where this ability was coming from. With Dave I managed to dig down into the problem, and some of the things I had done (for other reasons) had also improved the timing non-linearity. It turns out that the brain is much more sensitive that the order of 4 uS of timing errors (this number comes from the inter-aural delay resolution, its the accuracy the brain works to in measuring time from sounds hitting one ear against the other), and much smaller levels degrade the ability for the brain to perceive the starting and stopping of notes.
  
 But timing accuracy has another important effect too - not only is it crucial to being able to perceive the starting and stopping of notes, its also used to perceive the timbre of an instrument - that is the initial transient is used by the brain to determine the timbre of an instrument and if timing of transients is non-linear, then we get compression in the perception of timbre. One of the surprising things I heard with Hugo was how easy it was to hear the starting and stopping of instruments, and how easy it was to perceive individual instruments timbre and sensation of power. And this made a profound improvement with musicality - I was enjoying music to a level I had never had before.
  
 But the problem we have with DSD is that the timing of transients is non-linear with respect to signal level - and unlike PCM you are completely stuck as the error is on the recording and its impossible to remove. So when I hear DSD, it sounds flat in depth, and it has relatively poor ability to perceive the starting and stopping of notes (using Hugo/Dave against PCM). Acoustic guitar sounds quite pleasant, but there is a lack of focus when the string is initially struck - it sounds all unnaturally soft with an inability to properly perceive the starting and stopping. Also the timbre of the instrument is compressed, and its down to the substantial timing non-linearity with signal level.
  
 Having emphasised the problems with delta-sigma or noise shaping you may think its better to use R2R DAC's instead. But they too have considerable timing errors too; making the timing of signals code independent is impossible. Also they have considerable low level non linearity problems too as its impossible to match the resistor values - much worse than DSD even - so again we are stuck with poor depth, perception of timing and timbre. Not only that they suffer from substantial noise floor modulation, giving a forced hard aggressive edge to them. Some listeners prefer that, and I won't argue with somebody else's taste - whatever works for you. But its not real and it not the sound I hear with live un-amplified instruments. 
  
 So to conclude; yes I agree, DSD is fundamentally flawed, and unlike PCM where the DAC is the fundamental limit, its in the format itself. And it is mostly limited by the format. Additionally, its very easy to underestimate how sensitive the brain is to extremely small errors, and these errors can have a profound effect on musicality.
  
 Rob


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## Mython

I'm enjoying your technical commentaries, Rob, even though I admit that a proportion of it goes over my head! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 DAVE will be a stretch too far for my pocket, at this immediate point in time, but I am still extremely keen to hear it - more so on fullsize hi-fi than headphones/CIEMs, since I feel these are more likely to showcase the spatial imaging talents of the DAC.
  
 I would _love _to hear the following track, at decent SPL, through the DAVE, into some Chord monoblocks and decent fullrange speakers:
  
  

  
 I may just turn up at the Bristol Show 2016, clutching this CD, making a bee-line for the Chord room, though I anticipate it'll probably be standing-room only!


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## DaveRedRef-III

Rob thanks very much for taking the time and energy to explain your findings in detail. I am fascinated by this subject and always want to learn more. I suspect the humble CD may even live up to much of the original hype over the next few years. If you know of a paper on the subject that is worth reading please do let me know btw.

Now that Chord, with your design help Rob, appear to be working towards moving the D/A conversion towards the Speaker OP, it seems to me Chord could easily license a value added Digital product which (if used sparingly) could greatly enhance the audiophiles 'in room' sound delivery. That product being a 64 bit Parametric Mastering EQ. It seems to me there are two major weakness in the chain between what Chord deliver in flat response audio and the consumers ears and that is 1) The idiosyncrisies of a loudspeakers sound fingerprint and 2) The customers own room. For instance I currently use a pair of Sonus Faber Olympica III speakers and they are very accomplished but they are not perfect in a linear frequency sense. I would love to counteract a dip between 2-4 kHz. Equally with a parametric I could take out much bass flab created by room inflections. These frequency problems are commonplace. Particularly bass response. Much of what is achieved in your work Rob is undone with the problems I highlight here. In the past an analogue Parametric would have been a non-starter but a Digital equivalent can be switched in or out in software with zero loss of clarity and can be licensed very cheaply I believe. 

When one considers the amount of time an audiophile spends tweaking their sound, even a 5 band Parametric EQ would be an incredibly powerful tool in their hands, not to mention those of industry professionals demoing Chord products. These problems affect every single buyer of your product. Anyway I just thought it was worth making the observation. Food for thought perhaps?


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## DaveRedRef-III

On the point of digital parametric mastering EQ's it is also worth noting that a product with this capability would from a commercial sense 'lay waste' to all exponents of 100% DSD up sampling solutions because they would have no way to counter this capability without turning the sound back into PCM. (Another weakness of DSD).

I would imagine any Hifi salesperson with an ability to use such a function properly would easily be able to sell Chord products over a competitor. It would after all allow the tailoring of the best attributes of the product to each individual room. It is not hard to imagine also that someone in the industry will do this at some point if only to gain commercial advantage.


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## Mython

I'm not convinced that Chord are necessarily best-placed for the above.
  
 That market segment seems to already be being served well by products like the DEQX HDP-4/5,  Trinnov Magnitude, and others
  
  
 Or have I misunderstood your proposal, Dave?


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## CoLdAsSauLt

rob watts said:


> ...
> But what was curious was how easy it was to hear a 330 dB noise shaper against a 360 dB one - but only in terms of depth perception.
> ...
> With Dave I can still hear 100,000 taps increasing to 164,000 taps albeit I can now start to hear the law of diminishing returns.
> ...


 
 Robb
  
 Thank you for your lengthy response! Could you please share what equipment you use for those listening tests? Thinking along the lines of DaveRedRef-III, I'd think headphones would be the way to go, eliminating interacting room acoustics. On the other hand, each different headphone has such an own character, and is most certainly the biggest influencing factor in my audio-chain determining what I hear in the end... or am I ignorant here? Please enlighten me


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## DaveRedRef-III

Mython
For me it doesn't really require a $6400 box with extra connections (and the inevitable loss of clarity that outboard boxes introduce). You will probably recall that in the old days we had tone controls but they disappeared as manufacturers realised there was a cost for all that analogue stuff in the chain - loss of clarity due to additional connections. All I think we need is a professional software parametric mastering eq introduced in the existing DAC software, for instance something like the 64 bit precision tool used for mastering in Cakewalk Sonar. It would need to be a mastering parametric because ordinary mixing EQ plugins tend to be used partly for artistic results on a recording. They will tend to emulate an old reveared analogue unit like a Neve EQ/channel strip (great sound but coloured nonetheless). Whereas mastering eq's tend to be designed in order to maintain exactly the sound that was achieved in the mix but give a balance and clarity to the overall spectrum.
The benefits of being able to use such a tool in your system would be 1) No additional connections, 2) Digital domain retained, 3) address the in-room shortcomings in a professional way 4) can be switched in or out and 5) a very cost effective software solution

It is not so much the speaker shortcomings that matter really, as many people choose their speakers because they favour the frequency fingerprint of a certain brand. Also that fingerprint may change from room to room. If you study some of the sound spectrum findings in Stereophile speaker reviews you will see how the in-room tests often show quite pronounced differences from the manufacturers data and also changes from room to room and from one placement to another. To my mind this would seem a sensible progression for the industry once we have a digital chain right to the speaker OP. When we look at the work Rob has done with DAVE. He will have designed the best product he can for the target retail price. On paper and with headphones it may sound spectacular but I am pretty sure for most people, in-room it will immediately be compromised. I think of it as a little like designing a car for a flat world with just one gear. It ignores the fact that the real world is not flat. Maybe there is a good reason why it cannot be implemented as I describe but I think if such a solution could be implemented well it would have significant commercial benefit for the first company to introduce it because it is such a powerful tool.


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## rkt31

highly underrated but almost always effective is the toe in technique of speakers which almost completely eliminate the room interaction of speakers. if one can't make walls slanting then make the speakers fire at an angle. exact toe in needs experiment. the correct toe in is what which gives best balance between bass and treble. more than required for in will cause Treble sounding hard, less toe in will cause bass boom.


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## DaveRedRef-III

Rkt31
Yes I agree speaker placement and setup can have a profound affect on sound performance, though there are limits of course, depending on room size and speaker size. Sonus Faber speakers are designed for optimal performance when toe'd in to face the listener btw. Their natural stance is also leaning backwards so I would guess they too would agree with your observations on setup.

Regarding DAVE, I see Chord are continuing to show the product on a pretty hectic schedule around the globe. Let's hope some more personal reviews will be forthcoming.

It was interesting to hear in an interview recently that Chord had been asked by studios to turn their technology to producing A-D converters too. Even the best converters used by studios seem to me digital in their sound. I do not think Rob would have much trouble bettering their capability. It is not as noticeable when used on a whole mix for mastering purposes but if you double track a vocal at 88.2 or 96 kHz 24 bit for instance the result is rather grainy and metallic sounding. Very unnatural to my ears. On tape the effect of double tracking a vocal is desirable. (I am sure most will be aware that George Martin used it well for Beatles vocals). unfortunately current industry A-D converters seem to show their shortcomings in this respect. If Rob wanted to show the industry how good his A-D converters are, when they are finished, imo this would be a good way to grandstand them against their competitors.


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## Kakki

I heard Dave in Tokyo International Audio Show 2015 and I was quite impressed by the sound.
 The sound was more real than anything I heard in the past... with the deepest depth in the sound stage.
 (We did listening test for Dave with a power-amp and speakers connected. I could not test the headphone out.)
  
 We also did a comparison with Hugo TT using the exact same set up, just replacing Dave with Hugo TT.
 The result was very shocking... I myself own a Hugo (not TT) and know how well it can re-produce the sound stage.
 But... hearing Hugo TT after Dave, I found that even TT sounded much more vague in re-producing the sound stage and sounded more artificial.
  
 (One thing that Hugo TT sounded better was the sound smoothness like silk but I don't know if this is because of the lower noise coming from the batteries in TT or Dave sounded just too real and re-produced the sources more precisely)
  
 One thing I noticed was that Dave re-produced naturally recorded source so real and well...
 But because Dave re-produced sounds so real... separately recorded and processed musics (like typical rocks and popular musics) sounded like collaged.
 Cutting and pasting differently recorded sound pieces. (that is actually how those kind of musics are created...)
  
 Anyway, my experience is just a short-time listening in a very unique environment and may not represent general opinions.
 Would appreciate more opinions from others.


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## DaveRedRef-III

Kakki
 Thanks very much for the feedback.
  
 DAVE really does sound like it could be a game changing product and I haven't been quite so buzzed at the prospect of auditioning a piece of hifi for years.


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## rkt31

even Hugo with a good power amp reproduces even the minutest change in recording volume and pitch etc. you can even listen when the singer moved slightly away from mic or slightest off beating of the singer.


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## Raika

The batteries on hugo make it sound soft and lightweight, can we see Hugo 2 but with more taps and specifications like dave for headphones ? .


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## Sonic77

Question for Chord Audio. What will the Chord DAVE DAC  retail for in US dollars? I always see it in British pounds, thanks.


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## OK-Guy

sonic77 said:


> Question for Chord Audio. What will the Chord DAVE DAC  retail for in US dollars? I always see it in British pounds, thanks.


 
  
 I've found the most accurate way to convert GB-Pounds > US-Dollars is to use a online converter... I use XE Currency Converter it gives you 'live' exchange rates, takes 2secs to convert, hth.
  
 Link: http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/


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## Sonic77

ok-guy said:


> I've found the most accurate way to convert GB-Pounds > US-Dollars is to use a online converter... I use XE Currency Converter it gives you 'live' exchange rates, takes 2secs to convert, hth.
> 
> Link: http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/


 

 So there is no set price? It's whatever the current exchange rate? In other words the price will fluctuate from day to day? And what is the price again in pounds? Thanks.


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## Beolab

@Rob Watts

Almost every other HighEnd DAC maker incl MSB are using femto master/output clocks for zero jitter and often do a re-clocking of the signal with a very precise sound as a result, but i have never heard what type of clocks you are using?? 

Is it femto grade clocks or better in the DAVE for example? 


As a side note: 

Have a MSB Analog DAC with ultra stable femto clocks on a audition against the
 Chord Hugo and QBD76 on max buffer, and its a big improvment against the Hugo in fact! 

Its clearly the weakest in my setup, but the QBD76 holding up pretty good against the MSB, but sounding a bit sweeter than the MSB and a bit more bassy and bit less transparent.


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## Raika

beolab said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> Almost every other HighEnd DAC maker incl MSB are using femto master/output clocks for zero jitter and often do a re-clocking of the signal with a very precise sound as a result, but i have never heard what type of clocks you are using??
> 
> ...


 
 yeah I wish chord make a femto clocks for hugo and other products with reasonable price ?
 is it a huge gap betwen msb and hugo ?
 please do a mini review of both in deatail , imaging and soundstage ?


----------



## Beolab

raika said:


> yeah I wish chord make a femto clocks for hugo and other products with reasonable price ?
> is it a huge gap betwen msb and hugo ?
> please do a mini review of both in deatail , imaging and soundstage ?




England vs USA in ice hockey =) 

I can only wright a small mini review for now because in Sweden the time is 2:35 in the night here, so i only describe the differences in short: 

From the first note you hear a sound from that possess clarity and high separation with outstanding precision and more dept to every tone with less colorisation, that i do think the Hugo got in the upper band some times. 

The Analog also got more air btw every note and having a dryer and a bit more refined lower end than the Hugo. 
It also handles complex music or compressed music better because of the ultra good separation / dept and precision and jitter resistant that gives less distortion in the MSB. 

So if MSB just got like 1400 taps DSP processing power according to 
Rob against 27000 in the Hugo, it still sounds whay better, so i think it is someting else that do the trick, and that is most likley the femto clocks. 


I feel that the Hugo also do not handle jitter so well, because i hear a "pixel effect" digital distortion in the upper mids that are a factor in lossy compressed music, that i do not here on the Analog. 

The QBD76 HDSD on the other side is more like the Analog but with deeper bass impact and is a little sweeter in the highs. 

So my score in high end dac:s to night is as follows: 

1. MSB Analog: 9/10 points. 
Could had a little more body in the mids and impact in the lower end. 

2. Chord QBD76 HDSD: 8/10 points.
Pretty close to the MSB Analog with great precision and ultra clarity / separation and dept, but with greater impact in the lower end! 

3. Chord Hugo Black 6/10 points. 
It plays the music more narrower the ears, and have not the ultra precision and clarity or fluidity in the sound like the big High End boys. The the small but hearable digital distortion caused buy jitter on compressed music are not so nice either. The background are not so dark and it sounds more like a small compact "walkman" product if you compare it to the Ultra High End division. 

It needs femtio clocks i think would do it great for the clarity that comes from precision in the timing. 

So i hope i can place the DAVE in the top with 10/10 points when i review it next time! 

And if Rob reads this it would be very interesting of his thoughts about the 
DAVE vs MSB Analog if he have compared the DAVE with other DACs ?


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## Mython

beolab said:


> .... if Rob reads this it would be very interesting of his thoughts about the
> DAVE vs MSB Analog if he have compared the DAVE with other DACs ?


 
  
  
 forum politics may tie Rob's hands re'  commenting on competitors' products.
  
  
 Believe me when I say I am _not_ someone who likes to see products priced out of the reach of the average working-class person, but, in spite of that, I have a feeling the DAVE _might_, by comparison with the price-performance of competitors' products, turn out to be a relative bargain in the world of high-end hi-fi. It's nice to see some 'first impressions' trickling into the thread, from hi-fi shows, and we're _so_ near to seeing some bona-fide reviews-proper in the hi-fi press. I'm as eager as the rest of you to see how things pan out for this DAC.
  
 Seems to me, there are probably quite a number of very concerned competitors in the marketplace, with £20-60k products, nervously watching and waiting to see how good the £8k DAVE turns out to be. If DAVE matches or (hurrah!) _beats_ their products, how on earth will they be able to continue to justify their _much-higher_ pricing? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 This product may prove to be much more than a DAC - it may even change the high-end DAC _marketplace, _entirely. Wouldn't that be something? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  _(vindication for Rob, too, for sticking to his principles, in spite of all the naysayers, over the years)._


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## Raika

mython said:


> forum politics may tie Rob's hands re'  commenting on competitors' products.
> 
> 
> Believe me when I say I am _not_ someone who likes to see products priced out of the reach of the average working-class person, but, in spite of that, I have a feeling the DAVE _might_, by comparison with the price-performance of competitors' products, turn out to be a relative bargain in the world of high-end hi-fi. It's nice to see some 'first impressions' trickling into the thread, from hi-fi shows, and we're _so_ near to seeing some bona-fide reviews-proper in the hi-fi press. I'm as eager as the rest of you to see how things pan out for this DAC.
> ...


 
 it's about time,I hope we can see a new benchmark at this price , if it happens I will save up to buy one ,
 I highly doubt it ,names like msb ,lampizator ... it' hard to beat , if you want that you have to test against these big boys then introduce something we never heard before . if the digital can sound better than vinyl then that's the new benchmark . I highly doubt it since robb says it rich and has massive soundstage only this is not good enough. with only 1 chip and it's not r2r it's very hard job .


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## Beolab

raika said:


> it's about time,I hope we can see a new benchmark at this price , if it happens I will save up to buy one ,
> 
> I highly doubt it ,names like msb ,lampizator ... it' hard to beat , if you want that you have to test against these big boys then introduce something we never heard before . if the digital can sound better than vinyl then that's the new benchmark . I highly doubt it since robb says it rich and has massive soundstage only this is not good enough. with only 1 chip and it's not r2r it's very hard job .




Yes i highly doubt that it can sound better than the MSB, maybe better bass impact, but other than that i can not find any direct flaws in the sound, so i think it will posses the same nice sound with great dept and will present the sound characteristics in a slight different way, but is it better than the 90.000$ MSB Select DAC, i wish, because then its a bargain!


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## audiobill

chordelectronics said:


> You'll be pleased to know that our dealers in the US have already started taking orders. We're still finishing Dave off, but expect to begin shipping mid to late October.


 
 If US dealers are already taking orders then there must be a price set. Converting the UK price to USD does not necessarily define it since there are additional costs of importing, distributing, and supporting the product in the US. Someone must know what the US price is set at, and it would be most helpful and appreciated if it could be determined and shared. TIA!


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## OK-Guy

audiobill said:


> If US dealers are already taking orders then there must be a price set. Converting the UK price to USD does not necessarily define it since there are additional costs of importing, distributing, and supporting the product in the US. Someone must know what the US price is set at, and it would be most helpful and appreciated if it could be determined and shared. TIA!


 
  
 contact Jay at Bluebird Music he'll be able to assist you (Chord's US/Canada Distributor), hth.
  
 Link: http://www.bluebirdmusic.com/contact.html


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## Bonesy Jonesy

raika said:


> it's about time,I hope we can see a new benchmark at this price , if it happens I will save up to buy one ,
> I highly doubt it ,names like msb ,lampizator ... it' hard to beat , if you want that you have to test against these big boys then introduce something we never heard before . *if the digital can sound better than vinyl *then that's the new benchmark . I highly doubt it since robb says it rich and has massive soundstage only this is not good enough. with only 1 chip and it's not r2r it's very hard job .


 
  
 My Chord Blu Transporter linked to my QBD76 DAC sounded 100% better than my hi-end £8,000 RRP (excluding my Keith Monks RCM...another £3k +) turntable set up.  Plus the hassle of turntable maintenance & care & cleaning of the vinyl... the Blu & QBD76 wins hands down on all fronts.  So I recently sold my turntable set-up.
  
 If DAVE is even better than the Blu & QBD76 set-up then £8k is a bargain plus you get a built in headphone amp as an added bonus.


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## DaveRedRef-III

Beolab
 I agree it is hard to imagine an £8k product outperforming products that market at 5x the price or more. The old adage of “You get what you pay for” springs to mind. However, I think we may still be suitably impressed by the performance of DAVE. I say this because when I listen to other companies designers/execs talk about their own technology I am not hearing the same technological objectives as those stated by RW with DAVE. Apart from Chord and Meridian I am hearing something more akin to a ‘me too movement’ from industry execs, much in the same way the industry previously went down the ‘off the shelf’ DSP chip route. Right now the easy route is ‘better clocks’.  You can buy them off the shelf and put them in your product. Anyone can do it. It has nothing to do with getting superior data for instance or reconstructing a better waveform or being more musical but it has a noticeable affect on what we hear because it improves ‘focus’ and that is selling product.
  
 Rob Watts proved with the DAC64 that moving with the crowd was not the best way to drive performance. From the interviews I have read and heard over recent months, Rob seems not to lay too much store by extreme clocks. This is above my understanding but perhaps it is because he understands sufficiently what is going on in the mathematics of waveform re-construction and he believes he can circumvent what these expensive clocks achieve by other means.
  
 What Chord (Rob) and Meridian (via their MQA protocol) are doing in their own way right now is addressing the shortcomings of D-A conversion, waveform re-construction itself. This approach imo promises to deliver far more musical information than ‘focus’ alone will deliver. I think what Rob has changed in the DAVE DAC compared to HUGO (a mobile, price restricted, product) and QBD76 (a product based upon 2008 technology) tells its own story too. Rob saw fit to achieve a THD figure of 0.000015% and work at -350db in the digital domain when developing the product. It makes you wonder how much information is available in that environment. With DAVE he refined the WTA filter with a new algorithm, re-designed the FIR filter, changed the noise shaping arrangement, added a state of the art digital pre-amp and added 2x ultra-high-speed coax 768kHz dual-data mode for use with future-unannounced Chord Electronics products. We all know that in HiFi if you improve one thing it often highlights some new shortcoming. In every aspect Rob has broken new ground with this product.
  
 Rob also said in his presentations that this was a ‘no cost limit’ development exercise. I suspect this may be Chord looking to re-claim the industry high ground they held with the DAC64 in 2001 and even if they do not achieve that lofty aim at a price limit of £8k, (given their track record) I suspect they will not be far off the mark.
  
 Some of DAVE’s design milestones and objectives for DAVE are in this interview (for those that haven’t already seen it).
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D80iu7ifXsOo&sa=U&ved=0CBkQtwIwAWoVChMIsfj8zZuhyAIVQY8NCh2l6wnE&usg=AFQjCNFnzVenQhRnEW_Rrbzog3Pza-Nvmw


----------



## Beolab

I fully agree with your piont, only time will tell when we can read serious reviews made by serious reviewers!


----------



## AFWannabe

daveredref-iii said:


> To continue the musicality theme I have found it interesting that there is an assumption in audio that musicality comes from good timing, hence DSD manufacturers have been using ever faster clocks to improve this weakness in the DSD format. However I have noticed that musicality can be affected significantly by placement/setup of 3 way speakers. How is this possible if it is all down to timing issues? A monitor speaker on the other hand is nigh on impossible to affect musicality in the setup. If the system is musical it pretty much stays musical whatever. I wonder if the complexity of 3 ways is showing us part of the answer. Could it be phase too that affects our perception of musicality. I seem to remember Rob mentioned recently that DAVE's sound stage goes deeper with PCM based material whilst DSD goes wider. Only phase can do this. Perhaps DSD has a skewed phase problem?


 
  
  


rob watts said:


> There are actually two independent issues going on with DSD that limits the musicality - and they are interlinked problems.
> 
> The first issue is down to the resolving power of DSD. Now a DSD works by using a noise shaper, and a noise shaper is a feedback system. Indeed, you can think of an analogue amplifier as a first order noise shaper - so you have a subtraction input stage that compares the input to the output, followed by a gain stage that integrates the error. With a delta sigma noise shaper its exactly the same, but where the output stage is truncated to reduce the noise shaper output resolution so it can drive the OP - in the case of DSD its one bit, +1 or -1 op stage. But you use multiple gain stages connected together so you have n integrators - typically 5 for DSD. Now the number of integrators, together with the time constants will determine how much error correction you have within the system - and the time constants are primarily set by the over-sample rate of the noise shaper. Double the oversampling frequency and with a 5th order ideal system (i.e. one that does not employ resonators or other tricks to improve HF noise) it converges on a 30 dB improvement in distortion and noise.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I know this is off-topic, but, based on the quoted posts, I wonder how a good AAA vinyl record, or tape, will compare in terms of musicality, and perception of depth, as although its noise floor is higher, it does not suffer (I suppose) from any kind of timing non-linearity, and doesn't require any kind of filtering, or noise shaping, etc.?


----------



## Rob Watts

It's actually quite interesting as on a technical level there are direct parallels with perception of timing and depth when working with analogue components and working with digital. The mechanism for creating the distortion is different, but the distortion itself is the same. Indeed, I learnt a lot about problems with analogue design with working on Dave's noise shaper.
  
 I have always been keen on depth perception, as its one aspect that reproduced audio does very poorly. Listen to an organ in a large church, and one can easily perceive a huge sound stage with an organ clearly sounding 200 feet away. A dog barking first thing in the morning on a quite day on the other side of the Welsh valley where I live sounds 2 miles away. But when I listen to audio in my room that perception is squashed dramatically - your lucky if you get a feeling of front to back of a few feet on even the best systems I hear at audio shows.
  
 So I have always been interested in depth and wanting to improve this aspect, and the problem is the electronics that go from microphone to speaker and that's why I am so excited about the ADC project because I will be able to cover all of the electronics in the chain from microphone to loudspeaker.
  
 When I first started listening to components, I noticed that metal to metal interfaces degraded the perception of depth - and I put this down to the very small non-linearity of contacts due to the layer of oxides and impurities on the surface. So small signals have to break through this, and larger signals have no relative problem - so you get an attenuation of very small signals. Problem with this was that I could perceive minute changes - like each soldered joint - which were by no means measurable. Indeed I have only ever measured this problem once, when I had a digital power amp that had extraordinary low levels of distortion - 0.0001 % at 100W - but one day it was 0.01%, and after a lot of poking around it turned out to be the load switch - the contacts had corroded. Then I found measurable (but small) changes by replacing the crimped wires on the loud with soldered ones. But high current power amps would be expected to show the small changes in distortion due to the change in impedance with signal level due to contacts - but I have never been able to measure the effect of wires (the copper interfaces from crystal to crystal exhibit this behaviour too) or contacts with low current interconnects.
  
 Now the noise shaper problem I have been talking about is exactly the same kind of distortion - very small signals won't get through the noise shaper, like very small signals won't get through the oxide barrier of metal to metal interfaces. They produce exactly the same kind of distortion, and sound the same - a truncation in the range of depth perception. But the really cool thing with Dave is that I can measure the problems - I can run simulations where all you are looking at is this distortion and noise, and I can see distortion at -300 dB and then listen to it. What the work I have done with Dave is *suggesting* is that the brain is extremely sensitive to this problem - in the sense there is no limit to how good small signal integrity needs to be. And this is precisely why we will never be able to measure the problems of copper purity and contacts because the brain can detect levels that no measuring equipment can detect.
  
 So analogue has exactly the same problem as digital - in that every component in the signal chain will degrade perception of depth. But the beauty of digital is that it is perfectly possible to eliminate the problem - but Dave is the only digital device that has been able to do this, as nobody else is designing noise shapers with such levels of resolution. And before somebody shouts R2R then these devices are hideous in low level distortion problems - very easy to measure these distortions and it is completely impossible to have the levels of accuracy I get with Dave.
  
 And of course analogue has the same problem - and with analogue its impossible to eliminate it. So in my opinion, with Dave I hear depth that is way deeper than any analogue system I have heard - and we are starting to get feedback from listeners to that effect.
  
 The exact same problem with timing also occurs with analogue. In this case it is HF distortion - now distortion products at 1 MHz is not directly audible - but they can change the timing of transients in a non-linear way, and that is audible - and that sounds exactly the same as digital timing problems - the inability to perceive the starting and stopping of a note. So again there are direct parallels with digital problems and analogue.
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> It's actually quite interesting as on a technical level there are direct parallels with perception of timing and depth when working with analogue components and working with digital. The mechanism for creating the distortion is different, but the distortion itself is the same. Indeed, I learnt a lot about problems with analogue design with working on Dave's noise shaper.
> 
> I have always been keen on depth perception, as its one aspect that reproduced audio does very poorly. Listen to an organ in a large church, and one can easily perceive a huge sound stage with an organ clearly sounding 200 feet away. A dog barking first thing in the morning on a quite day on the other side of the Welsh valley where I live sounds 2 miles away. But when I listen to audio in my room that perception is squashed dramatically - your lucky if you get a feeling of front to back of a few feet on even the best systems I hear at audio shows.
> 
> ...




Very nice late-night-reading as always Rob  

Can you tell us a little of the clock in the DAVE would be very intresting, and how you feel it stands against the other ultra high end DAC's with space age Cesium clocks (Rubicon) / Crystal Femto galaxy clocks ? 

/Fredrik


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## Hiyono

Here's a really long and in depth review of Dave in Japanese. Comparing it to the nagra HD. Costing 2x as much in Japan. 

http://pansaku.exblog.jp/23717658/


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## Raika

if the guitar played 300 feet away . can Dave play it 300 feet away ? even though many high end dac let you hear far it away ,but not the real way . the texture of the instruments fading  .
 the depth is a tricky thing especially with speakers .


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## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks for your thoughts Rob, as always very insightful.
  
 The noise floor and low bandwidth of Vinyl has been mostly ignored by exponents of the medium but Digital will win the day I am sure.


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## Mython

raika said:


> if the guitar played 300 feet away . can Dave play it 300 feet away ? even though many high end dac let you hear far it away ,but not the real way . the texture of the instruments fading  .
> the depth is a tricky thing especially with speakers .


 
  
  
 I suspect that minute timing and phase inconsistencies in a conventional (non-coaxial, etc.) loudspeaker may become *exponentially* problematic when attempting to recreate true depth perception at deeper and deeper depths/distances within the soundstage.
  
 The other thing, of course, is that one is attempting not only to recreate the original depth cues of the recording venue, but to _force_ such a recreation to convincingly be perceived by the human ear within a playback room which may be only a fraction of the size of the recording venue!


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## Beolab

hiyono said:


> Here's a really long and in depth review of Dave in Japanese. Comparing it to the nagra HD. Costing 2x as much in Japan.
> 
> http://pansaku.exblog.jp/23717658/




Interesting, can u tell us how it did stand against the Nagra and DCS Vivaldi in the review ?


----------



## Mython

Audiophile reviews tend to be painfully pretentious and overly-verbose at the best of times, but when translated from Japanese to English, via google, the resulting mangled verbosity is enough to make me want to commit harakiri! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 Do we have any Japanese speakers in our midst, who could provide a more cogent English translation of the highlights of that review, please?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## ChordElectronics

*On the 14th of October 2015, at 2pm GMT, Chord Electronics is introducing a revolutionary new product at The Shard, London, England.*​  ​ _You’ve talked and we’ve listened._​  ​ *The game will change!*​  ​ ​  
  
Chord Electronics would also like to offer one very lucky Head-Fier the chance to attend the event! The winner will enjoy a champagne reception and a superb eight-course gourmet lunch with Chord presentation. The winner will be at the forefront for this exciting release. For your chance to win a place at this ground-breaking event, all you need to do is take a creative picture of you and your Chord product and we'll pick a single lucky winner from all of the entries.​  ​ This competition is for a single invitation only. Travel and accommodation is not included.​  ​ FOLLOW THE THREAD: http://www.head-fi.org/t/782815/chord-electronics-the-shard-event​


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## Beolab

Sounds intresting, if it not a reintroduction of the DAVE , then maybe its a new amp / monoblocks that can take care of the 768Mhz output sockets or a source streaming device..


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## Sonic77

Streaming device is my guess.


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## DaveRedRef-III

*Review Sound and Summary: *
*The standout seems to be they put it up against the DCS Vivaldi stack (among others) and concluded: "CHORD DAVE is the highest of the DAC world as far as I know."*
  
 The sound
 This sound is off.
 Are crazy expired.
 Yet DAVE's calm.
 The sound widely in the cool, deep, is vivid.
 Of course, the work that marks the true value of this high-performance equipment,
 And we have done in these short words,
 I think the more's the only and without clam up way also of one of'll hear.
 After all this, because equipment that provides hardly not reach the level of excitement in words.
 To say, dialogue of this kind gives off when Bansaku-do came across in such equipment and
 It also can be said that the only complaints-cliche.
 Challenge to be itself, he is not hate.
 Sound field of the breadth and depth to the first, Sumikiri is remarkable. DAVE is the moment you began, the audition room air is completely changed, to revealing a wide space filled with severely and clear atmosphere. Temperature feeling low, depth of the sound stage will be very deeply deployment. Here the way was clear, and went in the depth direction of the sound field of the intended CHORD unique, it is close to that of a decade ago of GOLDMUND, is a further Seizetsu, it can not be said to be a natural feeling. This is a space of which evoke great audio pleasures, including the nature, it can not be heard in the other. Impression of this space will be perfect for it in the stratosphere, which has been the image for some time. The Harewatari, listener in a vast air up, down, left and right blocking things nothing is thrown. there stratosphere as if Showa-born boy dreamed also seemed to here in reality.
 Secondly, increased dynamism music is remarkable. Compared with Hugo TT sub model, you'll want muttered another this is that it is a different thing. This more emotional elements of the music is coming DAC rarely transmitted and relentlessly. It is a sound that would be forced to severely Koyo If you are listening. Performer of quiet dedication and absorption and sentimental growing, gloomy of music is represented by a stunning contrast. I have been recognized as the clear musical goodness of sharp also CHORD own. But such violent tone might easily have a rather monotonous impression. And a variety of music with the NAGRA HD DAC when attention is paid to that point, it's headphone out, but not amusing even if home is people that it is better that there is a serious and neutral tone that is heard in Re Leaf E1.

 Improvement of the sound image of the resolution is indeed remarkable in the third. Appeared in front of all sound is stood up all at once, the more noisy in some cases, a variety of sound can be heard in three dimensions. Vivaldi and such as DSP-01, not to have the order should be in the detail is expressed naturally in the real unprocessed, all the details of the recorded sound is once appeared, such as attacking ear intensive It is a way to hear. Yet sound image is dark, presence of sound is also strong. This sounds heard in advanced headphone listening, is such that was directly unleashed in space.
 In addition, it is also related to have is the speaker's ability to lead, localization of each section to be played in the booth of TIAS had can be expressed also the positional relationship between the vertical and high and low as well as left and right direction. Separation sense of each part is also excellent in the overlapping of the front and rear sound is heard brilliantly. However, the representation of harmony for separation is pretty good, not the blend together, it becomes a form that all comes flows while collateral.
 In particular, part of this harmony is inferior to the sound output of the NAGRA HD DAC.
 Assuming set aside such high-level requirements, such a two-dimensional rather than three-dimensional localization feeling, and sense of separation, realism close to the unprocessed, it what Vivaldi and, rammed a decent clock DSP- it is you did the world hear only 01. Not a Vivaldi as the erratic air feeling, it is not a fresh sense of realism about DSP-01, is a horrible guy and enter at this price in this area.

 Fourth, the tone is a vivid as if shouting, you are alive. And I youthful also. This Wakayai's tone would also be one of the characters. Rokai a roundabout expression rather, DAVE prefer a direct protest against the decision in the extremely straight. Such and such a talkative outspoken way, while there is a sound feel the character, that there is no production feeling like interfere with the music appreciation willfully, it is it's a very strange impressed also allowed. After all, the atmosphere close to the raw sound is from being out without excess or deficiency. In addition, this much despite the edge sound in vivid, flow of sound is a very smooth, and I is not impressed with the contradiction. This clarity, in this direct sense, the flow of the smooth sound is something that does not taste quite the other DAC.
 DAVE in the fifth truly sharpness of sound is good. Would not the first in many people go ears here in listen to one? It will most conspicuous place as a character of DAVE of sound. Especially when you focus the ear to high-frequency impulse, baked stick afterimage of sharp sound like cuts through the air to the eardrum to manipulate the sharp quick Japanese sword. The sense of speed, but goodness of the transient be heard consistently the entire band, and is most effectively exhibited in still high range.
 In a digression but but Metal Gear Rising Ribenjensu, Raiden is brandishing a high-frequency uneven Somerset blade (not Muramasa), there is a scene to fight like a dancer. Turning speed of that blade, my feel, sense of speed of DAVE, it is the sharpness of the goodness of image. This I did not want to know only those who can see. Anyway, this DAVE unique sense of speed is like a weapon that fraught with metallic weight. This is without feeling DAVE is not a DAVE.
 I while listening to the sound, said it also drew to mind the two aircraft fighters to compete in the stratosphere. That is the sound of DAVE my interpretation death, so that the atmosphere is reminiscent of modern weapons is always haunting. Shatter the other DAC us a powerful technology, afterimage of Yayamosureba violent force and speed, came out full of riding the flow of smooth melody, it does not stop.

 Finally, Mai made I must also not mention obvious extension of the dynamic range. This is he was the one that can be fully satisfied even Hugo TT, has become well further representation of large and small, the intensity of sound in DAVE. Again, the sound is large, or is attached clearly a sharp contrast for the fact that small. Generally easy to understand the goodness of who heard even sound, is a so-called sound high over-the-counter appeal.
 However, this sound is not something to enjoy without genre restrictions in any music. Something classic old narrow range recordings will not sound it ish. Contemporary music source of suits. Also it had better cease to combine a narrow range of old-fashioned speakers. Modern speakers advocating the power amplifier and a wide range with a strong drive power and speed suits.
 But forgot to say, this audition is connected to DAVE in USB from Dela N1Z to direct, it is further balance in directly from DAVE a sound that connected to the company made power amplifier as standard. Speaker is a TAD CE-1. This would be one of the system configurations and most DAVE the characteristic is exhibited. However, even through was separately prepared preamplifier, I think it is not the impression of the sound of DAVE is Soga large. Rather, only slightly direction is changed, only the character of the preamplifier is applied, it will hear a rather interesting sound. Personally, I was listening to think or not to spread the width of the representation subjected to any static settled on sound output when combined and Chorus of Jeff Rowland equipped with a new type of power supply.
 Want to thought also asked in addition of All-Union Jack system. That is, electronics CHORD, including DAVE, align the B & W 800D3 series has evolved as expected. By connecting them with the same name of the cable manufacturer CHORD senior cable, it is you want to hear carefully. deepened clearness that these equipment have in common is far, and whether the increase, is there to hear office.
 In what is the sound of the headphones out?
 In that place, I do not want to think that the find something. In aware of it, if you dare to comment, the sound was heard from the HD650 Dmaa that was re-cable in Oktavia, but that was almost the exact shape similar to the sound that rang to direct connection to TAD CE1 the power amplifier to DAVE.
 By comparison, Re Leaf E1 is excel in the localization of the separation feeling and sound image of the sound, will prevail and spread if TELOS Headphone Amplifier of the sound field. If combined with the appropriate DAC, to will still OJI of the amplifier are on top in the total sense of stability, not properly balanced amplifier of mass workshop if you want a flat sound. It is no match enemy to gloss and distinctive Sonority of sound with the HP-V8 If you say in listening taste. headphone out of the music if Nagra HD DAC is on a single. Again only and high-end headphone amplifier that has to target the headphones, the more expensive DAC of force to be reckoned with. But, the headphones out of DAVE If freshness and sharpness of the goodness of sound will over almost all. To proceed with the goodness of the cutting to be barely comparable to this, should I not come hear only from the USB DAC of Qualia. Prior to that, it MiTamae was first compared in price. When you think in total it teamed up with the corresponding DAC, there are hardly what comes out enough sound at 1.5 million in equipment was raised to comparison here.
 In any case, but also feel a little wasteful to buy only to listen to the future, headphones also DAVE, that sound reminiscent that it is not a wonder can have such veteran was heard Let me mention.
 To sit in various seats, while you are listening to DAVE, unexpectedly but got drowsy and tired, such as implanted abandon war hammer the (Warhammer), striking sound of sharp bass drum is Issen, it was jumped . At that moment, Hugo also QBD76 also I felt vividly that it was to go put quite behind. It is not visible figure even back another Hugo TT something is. Are-ra seems was a mere outpost. After all, According to John Franks DAVE is thing with is positioned masterpiece in the whole product CHORD made.
 Certainly DAVE pricing and design, considering it also fit the size, it is a sound worthy of rave reviews. If you were to this sound comes out from the DAC of 3 million yen over, I would have raised the referee's fan to HD DAC + MPS of NAGRA. However, the price in Japan of this DAC is only 1.5 million yen following the half. And is the preamplifier do not need. Preamplifier function of HD DAC's a bonus, but it is hard to say that a bonus of DAVE. It's actively use want to become functional rather. Victory or defeat would with there. The DAC is too cheap even if considered. Versus price satisfaction is too high. Also I thought so when I heard the HUGO, seems still CHORD to specialize in price destruction at a high level. And this is what is also that I ask to technology in general. Yet high-quality, inexpensive compared to the equipment produce sound of the same class, compact. This perfectly in a difficult request because the only DAC to some that meet.
 If, and full system of Vivaldi, DSP-01, which put the appropriate clock will release the musical tone from the Earth's gravity, suppose the things that he plays the sound of a different dimension. They are giving almost the space of, such as the world-the universe of weightlessness on the audio.
 When Meguraseru ideas along such contexts DAVE the atmosphere was clearing are met but mono play sounds in the spread of enormous space, the sound is still located within the atmosphere of the earth, and is released from the gravity Te not be. In that sense it would still than sound in the stratosphere. Abstract gravity acts that music to sound output, and he sounds like has given certain constraints on the attitude of the musical tone.
 Those sounds that rely on the clock of ability innocent in selfless, something no-frills realistic only talent speaking bad, but the sound of DAVE, which does not rely on clock maker of personality and ego is left in fully, it is of its own as music, always haunts sound output. And hear from DAVE is the sound of the defunct CHORD be Magau. Objection will be going, but such sonic signature is not sound boring for me. DAVE is technically is interesting to feel like have ended up in nature and this unique sound music in the process of boiling down the sound.

 Summary
 Coming up here, I dare say will the irreverent opinion.
 The advent of DAVE's a chance to drive a wedge in situations where high-end audio is almost occupied by the old people of the rich. This incident is not limited to the conventional CHORD user, still young and should to be a great gospel for the limited audio file our financial strength.
 It 1.5 million is still high?
 In the Son and the audio, if you do not stretch, the back is not extended. Now, we should extend the hand Good luck.
 For the moment the pre also not even need a headphone amplifier. External clock is also an external power supply is also not necessary to worry about.
 DAVE single and minimum PC, if they have headphones, this tremendous cost performance I want you to think well that enter in your hand.
 Although somewhat it is enigmatic paradox, and unless, there is no future in the world of high-end audio and lovable Kuzuse the monopoly of high-end audio by almost Seele like a old men.
 This is now, it would not be a mistake because I say that Yuku old exactly.
 However, most of the industrialized world manufacturers, including Japan,
 ... I do not think hardly to and understand this point.
 Nde another to hereabouts is the spit poison Let me stop.
 By the way, the audio There are two aspects of "excitement" and "healing".
 Excitement is something exciting. It is like a wave of acute emotional, but give a strong impression as of the moment of love at first sight to the listener, it is it is repeated and fatigue.
 On the other hand, healing is intended, but a chronic to reduce that kind of fatigue, is a habit of lazy followed by sound, is a tepid sense. This leads to mannerism.
 It is desirable that these two are balanced mix, it is common sense in the audio is that,
 DAVE is beyond that kind of common sense. That "impression" is the part occupied by the I think as "healing" much more than. Those who prefer the sound of DAVE Possibly, the "excitement" to "healing" might have a circuit of mood to be converted to. But, should people'm seeking DAVE provisionally without having such things in the mind. This sound is even psychology of listeners ask a lot of healing, there is a force to be "trained" in a short time. In fact I was so. This is a capability that is rarely seen in the excellent audio machine, but there is a feeling that I met such equipment for the first time in a long time. Opponents (anti) also admit the essence of the power of the sound, and there I have stepped on.
 It is not never want to exaggeration.
 But, no choice but to I confide this way become now.
 CHORD DAVE is the highest of the DAC world as far as I know.


----------



## Sonic77

Just got a quote from my local U.S. Chord dealer for the DAVE dac $16,300. I thought it was going to be less, but I guess not. Now I  know why they didn't want that info coming out.


----------



## audiobill

I don't have a local Chord dealer, but called one in the US and was told he believed the list price to be $13,000 but that he would have to verify it. Someone has to be able to confirm the US list price, please! TIA


----------



## Sonic77

audiobill said:


> I don't have a local Chord dealer, but called one in the US and was told he believed the list price to be $13,000 but that he would have to verify it. Someone has to be able to confirm the US list price, please! TIA


 

 Maybe my dealer was trying for extra profit?


----------



## Mython

@ Dave:     yes, that's just a gobbledigook google-esque translation - I meant a proper real-life Japanese-speaking head-fier to offer an _intelligible_ translation!


----------



## audiobill

sonic77 said:


> Maybe my dealer was trying for extra profit?


 
 Or the dealer I called was mistaken? Nobody seems to know for sure... it's really unbelievable!!!


----------



## Sonic77

audiobill said:


> Or the dealer I called was mistaken? Nobody seems to know for sure... it's really unbelievable!!!


 

 Why no one wants to say is very puzzling.


----------



## Mython

sonic77 said:


> Why no one wants to say is very puzzling.


 
  
  
 Perhaps it's because USA dealers may not yet have concrete pricing on the DAC?
  
  
  
 I'd relax about USA pricing, for a few weeks. All will be known quite soon, I'm sure. No point in getting wound-up, at this premature stage, until there is confirmation of pricing, either way.


----------



## Sonic77

mython said:


> Perhaps it's because USA dealers may not yet have concrete pricing on the DAC?
> 
> 
> 
> I'd relax about USA pricing, for a few weeks. All will be known quite soon, I'm sure. No point in getting wound-up, at this premature stage, until there is confirmation of pricing, either way.


 

 Weak


----------



## audiobill

The US dealer I contacted confirmed that some dealers have already placed early orders (so there must be a price set) and that there's a likely a wait of a couple of months to get one, but he wasn't certain of the $13,000 price.


----------



## Sonic77

audiobill said:


> The US dealer I contacted confirmed that some dealers have already placed early orders (so there must be a price set) and that there's a likely a wait of a couple of months to get one, but he wasn't certain of the $13,000 price.


 

 That price $13,000 sounds closer to the price of the British pound conversion then $16,300 I was quoted.


----------



## Mython

audiobill said:


> The US dealer I contacted confirmed that some dealers have already placed early orders (so there must be a price set) and that there's a likely a wait of a couple of months to get one, but he wasn't certain of the $13,000 price.


 
  
  
 I don't doubt that there may be a trade listprice, but final retail price is often set nearer release date, partially taking into account the exchange rate at that point in time (and perhaps a bit of dealer 'politics' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) and not always in the customers' favour. We shall find out soon enough. For those who still wish to stress and gripe in the meantime, that's their prerogative.
  
  
 Personally, I'm more interested in some in-depth reviews than I am in precise pricing, at this point in time.


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> Very nice late-night-reading as always Rob
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 The issue of clocks is actually very complex, way more of a problem then in simply installing femto clocks. People always want a simple answer to problems even if the problem is multi-dimensional and complex. I will give you a some examples of the complexities of this issue.
  
 Some years back a femto clock became available, and I was very excited about using it as it had a third of the cycle to cycle jitter of the crystal oscillators we were using. So I plugged it in, and listened to it. Unexpectedly, it sounded brighter and harder - completely the opposite of all the times I have listened to lower jitter. When you lower jitter levels in the master clock, it sounds smoother and warmer and more natural.
  
 So I did some careful measurements, and I could see some problems.
  
 The noise floor was OK, the same as before, and all the usual measurements were the same. But you could see more fringing on the fundamental, and this was quite apparent. Now when you do a FFT of say a 1 kHz sine wave, in an ideal world you would see the tone at 1 kHz and each frequency bucket away the output would be the systems noise floor. That is, you get a sharp single line representing the tone. But with a real FFT, you get smearing of the tone, and this is due to the windowing function employed by the FFT and jitter problems within the ADC, so instead of a single line you get a number of lines with the edges tailing of into the noise. This is known as side lobes or fringing. Now one normally calibrates the FFT and the instrument so you know what the ideal should be. Now with a DAC that has low frequency jitter, you get more fringing. Now I have spent many years on jitter and eliminating the effects of it on sound quality, and I know that fringing is highly audible, as I have done many listening tests on it. What is curious, is that it sounds exactly like noise floor modulation - so reduce fringing is the same as reducing noise floor modulation - they both subjectively sound smoother and darker with less edge and hardness.
  
 So a clock that had lower cycle to cycle jitter actually had much worse low frequency jitter, and it was the low frequency jitter that was causing the problem and this had serious sound quality consequences. So a simple headline statement of low jitter is meaningless. But actually the problem is very much more complex than this.
  
 What is poorly understood is that DAC architectures can tolerate vastly different levels of master clock jitter, and this is way more important than the headline oscillator jitter number. I will give you a few examples:
  
 1. DAC structure makes a big difference. I had a silicon chip design I was working on some years back. When you determine the jitter sensitivity you can specify this - so I get a number of incoming jitter, and a number for the OP THD and noise that is needed. So initially we were working with 4pS jitter, and 120dB THD and noise. No problem, the architecture met this requirement as you can create models to run simulations to show what the jitter will do - and you can run the model so only jitter is changed, nothing else. But then the requirements got changed to 15 pS jitter. Again, no problem, I simply redesigned the DAC and then achieved these numbers. So its easy to change the sensitivity by a factor of 4 just by design of the DAC itself - something that audio designers using chips can't do.
  
 2. DAC type has a profound effect on performance. The most sensitive is regular DSD or PDM, where jitter is modulation dependent, and you get pattern noise from the noise shaper degrading the output noise, plus distortion from jitter. R2R DAC's are very sensitive as they create noise floor modulation from jitter proportionate to the rate of change of signal (plus other problems due to the slow speed of switching elements). I was very concerned about these issues, and its one reason I invented pulse array, as the benefit of pulse array is that the error from jitter is only a fixed noise (using random jitter source with no low frequency problems). Now a fixed noise is subjectively unimportant - it does not interfere with the brains ability to decode music. Its when errors are signal dependent that the problems of perception start, and with pulse array I only get a fixed noise - and I know this for a fact due to simulation and measurements.
  
 3. The DAC degrades clock jitter. What is not appreciated is that master clock jitter is only the start of the problem. When a clock goes through logic elements, (buffers level shifters, clock trees gates and flip-flops plus problem of induced noise)  every stage adds more jitter. As a rough rule of thumb a logic element adds 1 pS of more jitter. So a clock input of 1pS will degrade through the device to be effectively 4 pS once it has gone through these elements (this was the number from a device I worked on some years ago). So its the actual jitter on the DAC active elements that is important not the clock starting jitter. 
  
 The benefit I have with Pulse Array is that the jitter has no sound quality degrading consequences - unlike all other architectures - as it creates no distortion or noise floor modulation. Because the clock is very close to the active elements (only one logic level away), the jitter degradation is minimal and there are no skirting issues at all. This has been confirmed with simulation and measurement - its a fixed noise, and by eliminating the clock jitter (I have a special way of doing this) noise only improves by a negligible 0.5 dB (127 dB to 127.5 dB). 
  
 This is true of all pulse array DAC's even the simpler 4e ones. In short the jitter problem was solved many years ago, but I don't bleat on about it as its not an issue and because it's way too complex a subject to easily discuss.
  
 I hope I have given a flavour here of some of the complexities.
  
 Rob


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I had a hunch that you had addressed this problem in your own way Rob.

Thanks for you valuable contribution to this thread btw.


----------



## Raika

after reading the japanse review , I want to see those 164000 taps !!
 Thanks rob I can see you push the dac to it's limit with this awsome technology .
  
 BTW what's the price in japan ?


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## Sonic77

Well, I'm moving on, any company that doesn't want to tell it's potential customers it's price for it's product is pretty disrespectful. Even if they said, we don't know, that would be ok, but to totally ignore requests, forget it.


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## OK-Guy

sonic77 said:


> Well, I'm moving on, any company that doesn't want to tell it's potential customers it's price for it's product is pretty disrespectful. Even if they said, we don't know, that would be ok, but to totally ignore requests, forget it.


 
  
 ever thought that the price hasn't been finalised yet hence why no-one has proffered a cost, if I knew I'd inform you but I can only quote the 'guestimate' from the beginning of the thread which is £8k... when DAVE 'testing' has been completed no doubt the final cost will be revealed, hth.


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## DaveRedRef-III

OK GUY
Are you saying the price isn't even set in the UK yet? If so why did Chord inform the market it would be £7,995?


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## OK-Guy

daveredref-iii said:


> OK GUY
> Are you saying the price isn't even set in the UK yet? If so why did Chord inform the market it would be £7,995?


 
  
 until I'm told the price of DAVE 'officially' I can only quote what has gone before, I can't even quote you a release date... yeah I know I'm unhelpful but it could be worse, whilst we wait things I'd recommend having a pie & a pint whilst watching the Rugby...


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Raika
Is there any chance you would have the time to do a coherent translation of the Sound and Summary from that Japanese review of Dave?


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> The issue of clocks is actually very complex, way more of a problem then in simply installing femto clocks. People always want a simple answer to problems even if the problem is multi-dimensional and complex. I will give you a some examples of the complexities of this issue.
> 
> Some years back a femto clock became available, and I was very excited about using it as it had a third of the cycle to cycle jitter of the crystal oscillators we were using. So I plugged it in, and listened to it. Unexpectedly, it sounded brighter and harder - completely the opposite of all the times I have listened to lower jitter. When you lower jitter levels in the master clock, it sounds smoother and warmer and more natural.
> 
> ...




Very interesting read Rob, even if im not an engineer i can understand the negs and the pros in each different DAC technology, with your fine explanation. 

So to my noby questions: 

So puls array are more resistant than a "Femto clock specced r2r clock is your conclution though you mesaurments, but how can i feel that the noise floor got lower when i conected the MSB Analog vs my Hugo, or is it just a illusion and i hear the more sharp sound signatur of the "femto" clock ? 

So the puls array are very jitter resistant, but do you have the measured jitter specs of the QBD76 / Hugo / DAVE, that you can share with us, becaus its a jungle of diffrent USB / S/pdif recklocking devices that you can connect before the dac and have a claimed improvment to the sound. 

But if you show us that it is no mening with does kind of products combined with Chord products we are glad to save the money for better purposes. 

/ Fredrik


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## Kakki

mython said:


> Audiophile reviews tend to be painfully pretentious and overly-verbose at the best of times, but when translated from Japanese to English, via google, the resulting mangled verbosity is enough to make me want to commit harakiri!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hi, I'm a native Japanese living in Tokyo.
  
 So I think I can give some of the key points from his review as follows.
 Hope this helps you a bit!
  
 ====================
 The sound
  - 1. The sound stage width and depth, clearness are significant.
  - 2. The musics from Dave are more dynamic compared with Hugo TT. The musics are very emotional.
  - 3. The sound resolution is much more improved. All of the sound details in the recording are presented at once.
  - 4. The sound is vivid, live and youthful. The sound is direct but very smooth at the same time.
  - 5. The sound is truly sharp like Katana blade.
  - Lastly, the dnyamic range is clealy more expanded.
 For the headphone out, the sound from my HD650 Dmaa (recabled version with Oktavia) was exactly similar to the sound from TAD CE1 speakers using Chord poweramp.
 If Dave is priced as over \3,000,000 ($25,000), I would say Nagra HD DAC + MPS is better, but the actual Dave price is just \1,500,000 ($12,500) and also we will need no pre-amplifier. So I would say that this DAC is overly low-priced. The satisfaction is too high for the price.


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## Mython

Many thanks, Kakki!


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## Raika

kakki said:


> Hi, I'm a native Japanese living in Tokyo.
> 
> So I think I can give some of the key points from his review as follows.
> Hope this helps you a bit!
> ...


 
 can you tell us more about Dave compared to Nagra Hd ? , how he compare them to each other  ? what he said about the sound of nagra Hd ? which one was better regardless of the price ?
 did he compare dave to other dac ? also did he like the amp on dave  ?
 Thanks for you help


----------



## Beolab

kakki said:


> Hi, I'm a native Japanese living in Tokyo.
> 
> So I think I can give some of the key points from his review as follows.
> Hope this helps you a bit!
> ...




Interesting news! 

So the Nagra HD dac are better but he did also make a comparison with DAVE to the DCS Vivaldi stack, what was his impressions here?


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## DaveRedRef-III

It's interesting to look at the workings of Nagra HD DAC

From HiFi+ review:

"The audiophile intent begins after these balancing operations, however. As suggested previously, the company went right back to first principles. Nagra sees the quantization noise of 16‑bit/44.1kHz digital audio, and the methods used to quell that noise, as one of the big problems of the CD age. Crude brickwall filters that block out any noise above 22.1kHz can undermine phase above 10kHz, the company suggests, while conventional oversampling and interpolation methods are a cure that Nagra believes is often worse than the disease.

Nagra instead concentrated on the goals of getting the extraction and converting of data absolutely right, without resorting to ‘cheating’ (oversampling). Ultimately, this led to Direct Stream Digital, and Nagra (in association with DSD pioneer Andreas Koch) developed its own Sigma‑Delta DSD processing, on a custom 72‑bit Field Programmable Gate Array. Add to that a custom time-correction algorithm, in place of the usual demands for atomic clocks at this grade, to keep this DAC temporally precise, and the result is the removal of that quantization noise up to so far beyond the audio band, its impact is effectively completely eliminated."

Nagra avoided super clocks, used FPGA, special algorithm for time correction.".........remind you of any other DACs?

It converts everything to DSD though. I would be surprised if it will match DAVE for musicality.


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## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> Very interesting read Rob, even if im not an engineer i can understand the negs and the pros in each different DAC technology, with your fine explanation.
> 
> So to my noby questions:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Pulse Array is a constant switching scheme - that is it always switches at exactly the same rate irrespective of the data, unlike DSD, R2R, or current source DAC's. This means that errors due to switching activity and jitter are not signal dependent, and so is innately immune from jitter creating distortion and noise floor modulation and any other signal related errors. The only other DAC that is constant switching activity is switched capacitor topology, but this has gain proportionate to absolute clock frequency - so it still has clock problems.
  
 I plan to publish more detailed analysis of this, but from memory all of my DAC's have a negligible 0.5dB degradation due to master clock jitter, so its a non issue.
  
 As to USB purifiers, for Dave, Hugo TT, 2 Qute don't bother as they are galvanically isolated. But in this case it's absolutely nothing due to jitter - its about RF noise and signal correlated noise upsetting Hugo.'s analogue electronics,not due to jitter as source jitter is eliminated by the internal buffer and DPLL.
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Pulse Array is a constant switching scheme - that is it always switches at exactly the same rate irrespective of the data, unlike DSD, R2R, or current source DAC's. This means that errors due to switching activity and jitter are not signal dependent, and so is innately immune from jitter creating distortion and noise floor modulation and any other signal related errors. The only other DAC that is constant switching activity is switched capacitor topology, but this has gain proportionate to absolute clock frequency - so it still has clock problems.
> 
> I plan to publish more detailed analysis of this, but from memory all of my DAC's have a negligible 0.5dB degradation due to master clock jitter, so its a non issue.
> 
> ...




Nice info Rob! 

I also connected a Wyred 4 Sound Remedy Reclocker last night btw my streamer connected with coax in and coax out to the Hugo, and the sound was remarkable better, so with the help of a extra reclocking device it is possible to achieve even better performance from the Hugo is my conclusion. 

http://www.audioaficionado.org/wyred-4-sound/28450-wyred-4-sound-remedy-review.html

/Fredrik

.


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## DaveRedRef-III

OK GUY
If the company are considering moving the goalposts on price with DAVE I think it would be a mistake to do so commercially. HUGO was the commercial success it was because such top notch technology was sold at a groundbreaking price point. It attracted a whole new generation of Chord buyers. Those buyers now view Chord as a leading producer of state of the art products. How many doors does that open to other chord products over time? I have been a professional business investor and analyst for more than 2 decades and imo it never pays to push the price too far on a ground breaking product. In doing so it misses a unique opportunity to raise your profile. The E-Type Jag was a legend because it was delivered by Jaguar at a price point that attracted a much wider audience. 

I sense that Chord is on a roll right now and that is because of the quality of the tech but it is also because with HUGO they became an aggressive pricer of their product. The commercial power of such a strategy in my opinion should never be underestimated. At the same time it is making you strong financially, it is also making your competitors weak because you are taking a chunk of their revenue too. The knock on effect of this strategy is that it affects the limits of your competitors future R&D budget.


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## Mython

daveredref-iii said:


> OK GUY
> If the company are considering moving the goalposts on price with DAVE I think it would be a mistake to do so commercially.


 
  
  
 Just to be even-handed about this: No one has actually said the goalposts _will_ move...  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 But that is not to say that I disagree with your sentiment (unless the price went _downwards, _LOL).
  
  
  
 Ironically, the Hugo _did_ witness a *post*-release price-change in the UK, to the detriment of UK customers and benefit of US dealers, but that's purely a coincidence, in light of your mentioning the Hugo in the above conversation.
  
  
 Although I understand US customers' eager anticipation of the DAVE, I don't feel it is particularly constructive for anyone to speculate about final pricing of the DAVE, in the USA, at this stage. What will be will be, and agitated &/or pessimistic speculation at this stage serves no constructive purpose for anyone.     That's nothing personal to anyone here; it's simply being pragmatic.


----------



## audiobill

As previously confirmed by Chord dealers themselves some US customers have already placed orders for DAVE which have been accepted, so it's not at all premature nor speculative for the price to have been set and for any inquiring customers to be given that price. It has also been reported that the back order expectation for orders placed now is currently running at about two months until delivery, which is another reason that the price should be shared so that potential customers can consider placing their orders to get into the queue. Are we just supposed to issue them a blank check with the amount to be filled in once this mystical price is determined? The current situation with their own dealers quoting a wide range of prices seems particularly unreasonable and quite speculative to me.


----------



## OK-Guy

I do not work for Chord directly I just help JF out on the forum, I do not have access to Distributors or Dealers as that is not part of my remit... my reply about cost in USA was to Sonic77, I do not know the US retail price of DAVE so have asked people to contact 'Bluebird Music', Chord's US-Distributor. Failing that I would suggest putting £8k into a currency-converter which will give you the grand total of $12,144.80, hope that clears any confusion.


----------



## Rob Watts

I am in Jakarta with John Franks at the moment and he has confirmed some things.
  
 The price of Dave was announced in May at Munich at £7,995. It has not changed, and will be UK retail of £7,995. Production is under way and on schedule, so Dave will be released later this month. Now Chord have no direct power in controlling prices in other markets, so please contact your local distributor for local pricing.
  
 Rob


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## OK-Guy

thanks for that Rob (& John).


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thank you for that welcome clarification Rob. Much appreciated


----------



## Mython

rob watts said:


> ....  Chord have no direct power in controlling prices in other markets, so please contact your local distributor for local pricing.


 
  
  
 Exactly.
  
  
 Which is why a small minority of unscrupulous dealers (not just those selling Chord products) may try to push their luck by profiteering during the short period leading up to, and following, release, when demand may initially outstrip supply.
  
 It's unpleasant behaviour, but that's free market economics for ya!_ <SHRUG>_
  
 My antidote to that would be to _be patient_, sit tight and wait for supply to catch up with demand, at which point, pricing is likely to stabilise.
  
  
  
  
  
 How's the show going, in Jakarta, Rob? Is it standing room only in the Chord room?


----------



## Rob Watts

daveredref-iii said:


> It's interesting to look at the workings of Nagra HD DAC
> 
> From HiFi+ review:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sorry, but I don't usually comment of other companies products, but the statement that this reminds you of other DAC's (Dave) really raised my blood pressure.
  
 Lets look at each statement in turn:
  
 "Nagra sees the quantization noise of 16‑bit/44.1kHz digital audio, and the methods used to quell that noise"
  
 There is absolutely no problem with quantization noise, if correctly done, as it adds a fixed unvarying noise. Because it is unvarying, it has no consequence on the brains ability to separate instruments, define placement in the sound stage, determine timbre and transients and so has no effect on musicality (that is the ability to enjoy music emotionally).
  
 The scary thing is the statement "methods use to quell that noise". What on earth does that mean? The dither is part of the recording, and applied in the analogue domain, so it is the actual signal you want to reproduce. Nobody quells that noise, as how do you separate it from the intended signal?
  
 "Crude brickwall filters that block out any noise above 22.1kHz can undermine phase above 10kHz"
 A brickwall filter is an FIR symmetric filter and these are guaranteed to be linear phase, so this statement is just plain wrong.
  
 "while conventional oversampling and interpolation methods are a cure that Nagra believes is often worse than the disease."
 What are they saying here? NOS? That topology creates enormous timing errors, and that is the complete opposite with what I do.
  
 "Nagra instead concentrated on the goals of getting the extraction and converting of data absolutely right, without resorting to ‘cheating’ (oversampling)."
 Again completely diametrically opposed to what I say. The job of a DAC is NOT to reproduce the digital data, but to reproduce the analogue bandwidth limited signal at the point it is sampled in the ADC. To perfectly create the analogue signal in the digital domain requires infinite oversampling. This is also the only way to reduce jitter sensitivity, and eliminate noise floor modulation, an effect for which the brain is extremely sensitive to. You absolutely can't refer to oversampling as cheating, as it gets the signal much closer to the original analogue signal. But of course, if your intention is to create distortion and noise, then by all means refer to oversampling as cheating, as it won't allow you to achieve your goal of more distortion and noise floor modulation.
  
 "Add to that a custom time-correction algorithm, in place of the usual demands for atomic clocks at this grade, to keep this DAC temporally precise"
 Confusing two separate and independent things. The interpolation filter algorithm (if that's what they are talking about) can not change the requirements for the master clock, which depends principally upon the DAC topology. 
  
 "and the result is the removal of that quantization noise up to so far beyond the audio band, its impact is effectively completely eliminated"
 The quantization noise of 16‑bit/44.1kHz digital audio? That won't get touched at all by any such process. Are they talking about the quantization noise from the noise shaper? In which case don't use DSD, oversample at high rates, and run the noise shaper with n bit quantizer also at high rates (like my 2048 FS). DSD at 128 FS creates vast amounts of out of band noise with typically -20dB down at 200 kHz. You can never refer to noise at 200 kHz at -20dB as "its impact is effectively completely eliminated."
  
 And yes, my previous posting recently confirmed that it was impossible to properly reproduce depth using DSD, as the noise shaper resolution is inadequate. Dave has noise shapers with a trillion times more resolution than traditional DSD noise shapers.
  
 So no, this DAC bears absolutely no similarity with my work - it may have FPGA's, and not use atomic clocks, but that's the only similarity.
  
 Rob


----------



## Sonic77

You heard the suggested retail price and the price given to me, buyer beware of unscrupulous sellers trying to gouge their customers. Hopefully the honest seller will be known so that we can purchase from them. I'm in southern California so I'll let you figure out who the price gouger is on your own if you want. Even used the "Last one" sales tactic, that stuff doesn't work on this Jedi.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Rob,
 My implication was that the Japanese reviewer had highlighted these two DACs as market leaders and I saw from the HiFi+ explanation of the Nagra that they had used some broadly similar aspects, as opposed to the choices made by some other highly regarded DAC's. I guess the problem with a reviewer explaining the objectives and reasons of a product is that they can misunderstand or mis-quote the designers. Perhaps that contributed to the discrepancies you highlight Rob I don't know. Anyway, I had not intended to raise your ire.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

sonic77 said:


> You heard the suggested retail price and the price given to me, *buyer beware of unscrupulous sellers* trying to gouge their customers. Hopefully the honest seller will be known so that we can purchase from them. I'm in southern California so I'll let you figure out who the price gouger is on your own if you want. Even used the "Last one" sales tactic, that stuff doesn't work on this Jedi.


 
 If you buy from a reputable Chord Electronics Dealer you should be OK.   You can easily check the exchange rate at the time of purchase just in case you think you are more than you should. 
  
 Or you can fly to merry UK and buy and pick up your DAVE direct from a UK reputable Chord Dealer which may be more cost effective.


----------



## Sonic77

It was a Chord dealer.


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Sorry, but I don't usually comment of other companies products, but the statement that this reminds you of other DAC's (Dave) really raised my blood pressure.
> 
> Lets look at each statement in turn:
> 
> ...




@Rob Watts

I don't know any other designer who spend this amount of time and have the great patience with us, and who also go in dept of the patent pending specs of your products! 

A big accolades to you, and i think every one in here also appreciate it alot! 

I know this is the best product you have designed to date, and is a no limit project / product, but is their any other brand (no name have to be highlighted ) that can come close to DAVE technicality wise, or who can compete with DAVE sound wise if you can pick and choose any DAC on earth with no limits on the price tag, if you for once have the permission to be a little self-righteous  ?


----------



## Rob Watts

daveredref-iii said:


> Rob,
> My implication was that the Japanese reviewer had highlighted these two DACs as market leaders and I saw from the HiFi+ explanation of the Nagra that they had used some broadly similar aspects, as opposed to the choices made by some other highly regarded DAC's. I guess the problem with a reviewer explaining the objectives and reasons of a product is that they can misunderstand or mis-quote the designers. Perhaps that contributed to the discrepancies you highlight Rob I don't know. Anyway, I had not intended to raise your ire.


 
 Absolutely, I was in no way upset with you as the poster. Also, I have been working with Alan Sircom (HiFi+) for many years, and respect his journalism, so I find it unlikely that Alan would distort the information that was sent to him.
  
 I have been posting for some time now, and until yesterday always ignored the pseudo science and technical inaccuracies put out by some companies and posters, but last night I cracked and perhaps it would have been better for me just to ignore all this nonsense like I usually do.
  
 The problem I feel with the high end audio business is that so much uncritical acceptance of what companies say is damaging the potential for music lovers to get into audio and then get more enjoyment from recorded music. Indeed, I often get to listen (mostly at shows so not in the best conditions) to products that people are raving about, and think what are they going on about? How on earth can you justify this price tag with such poor sound quality and put out such technical nonsense?
  
 Why are audio enthusiasts, reviewers and manufacturers so uncritical? Now I get why a manufacturer would tell nonsense - mostly because they have mouths to feed - and generally they are honest and it stems from plain old ignorance and wishful thinking. But why are some enthusiasts so poor discriminators of sound quality? Why do some people like distortion? Why are reviewers generally so uncritical both subjectively and technically?
  
 It was this reason why after the DAC 64 in 2001 I gave up on the audio business and put my main focus on silicon design and consultancy as I felt I was banging my head on a brick wall. So my work with Chord was part time and for fun - I only designed product I wanted to own, so was only interested in better sound quality and more enjoyment from music solely for myself. So I kept plodding away, gradually making more improvements.
  
 Then Hugo came along, and listening to the first code was very exciting in that I had made a huge step change in enjoying music for me. On a personal note, when I was a teenager my Mum would say why are you listening to the sound and not enjoying the music. And I would answer but I can't enjoy the music because the sound is not right. But with Hugo, I could throw really bad recordings at it, and it would sound musically good - I could now enjoy the music. It has only taken 40 years of work to do it... That is how important Hugo was.
  
 But I had no inkling or expectation that other enthusiasts would feel the same and it was a very big surprise when Hugo took off. So it restored my faith in audio enthusiasts, which is why now I have stopped the silicon consultancy so I can concentrate solely on high end audio.
  
 But the audio industry will not develop and sell to music lovers until it gets more critical, and start delivering value for money with musicality. And I passionately believe that you can get so much more enjoyment from recorded music.
  
 Rant over, I will go back to boring technical stuff!
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> I don't know any other designer who spend this amount of time and have the great patience with us, and who also go in dept of the patent pending specs of your products!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hmm, don't like being self-righteous so apologies!
  
 Yes I got some flack from Chord initially about my postings in that I was giving too much information away and perhaps I do. But what the heck, life is too short. I spend all my waking time thinking about audio, and my sleeping time is often spent solving problems - I often wake up with a problem solved. And its about enjoying music, so when I get a technical improvement that also results in enjoying music more then I naturally want to talk to people who care about audio too.
  
 As to other companies? No not really, I am off on my own trek. There is nobody else walking on this path, which is why I am not bothered about about the possibility of giving valuable information away. This stuff is complex and takes many years to get right and generally engineers with advanced technical skills (there are very few) generally don't do listening tests, and the people that do listening tests don't have the skills. For example, I have been bleating on about long tap length WTA filters for 15 years, and the rest of the industry has simply ignored it and yet this is a simple concept proven by maths. I am still amazed nobody else has long tap length filters....
  
 Thanks for your kind comments.
  
 Rob


----------



## agisthos

Rob you said what was wrong with Femto clocks, but you never touched on which clocks you do prefer, and what specs ARE actually important in a clock. For example, I have recently heard that sideband phase noise is much more important than PPM accuracy. This is info that would help DIY'ers who build their own DAC's.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Rob
Thanks for the reply, I recall once speaking to the makers of one of the industries most expensive front end products and being disappointed as I realised they didnt conduct listening tests. It was then that I understood why their offerings were (imo) devoid of emotion.

I must echo the sentiments of Beolabs post earlier btw. We are fortunate indeed that you are so prepared to discuss critical detail Rob. Thanks again.


----------



## Rob Watts

agisthos said:


> Rob you said what was wrong with Femto clocks, but you never touched on which clocks you do prefer, and what specs ARE actually important in a clock. For example, I have recently heard that sideband phase noise is much more important than PPM accuracy. This is info that would help DIY'ers who build their own DAC's.


 
 The most important point is not to use a clock that has any form of PLL, as although these give good cycle to cycle jitter numbers they are poor with low frequency jitter, as the PLL is constantly wrong, as it hunts to get the correct value. So a regular quartz oscillator is best sounding. The low frequency jitter gives the skirting issues I talked about.
  
 And yes you are correct, the absolute frequency is quite unimportant, so forget oven clocks, atomic clocks etc. Also the clock must be physically close to the active elements,with dedicated stripline PCB routing with proper termination. Running the clock externally is a crazy thing to do, as you are simply adding more jitter and noise and an extra PLL in the system.
  
 Rob


----------



## audiobill

Regarding the US list price, I found a Chord dealer who displays the list price of $13,000 on their webpage. It can be seen here, by selecting Reference DAC from the drop down menu. Hope that this helps to clarify the US pricing!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Kakki
 I wonder is there any more feedback you can provide from that Japanese review? Fully understand if you haven't the time but we are scratching around for as much feedback as we can get right now!


----------



## Sonic77

audiobill said:


> Regarding the US list price, I found a Chord dealer who displays the list price of $13,000 on their webpage. It can be seen here, by selecting Reference DAC from the drop down menu. Hope that this helps to clarify the US pricing!


 

 Thank you for that information, It sucks that I have to go out of state to buy this dac as my local dealer has proven to be untrustworthy.


----------



## Beolab

@Rob Watts 

I have finally just have one more question for now, and that is if it is any diffrence if we use for example a low budget BlueSound Node2 streamer (sonos) with a 16bit/44.1khz file against let say a Auralic Aeris "Femto clock" stramer with the same file using coax spdif out on both connected to a DAVE, do you think you can here any diffrence? Whats is your opinion? 

/ Fredrik


----------



## Raika

rob watts said:


> Hmm, don't like being self-righteous so apologies!
> 
> Yes I got some flack from Chord initially about my postings in that I was giving too much information away and perhaps I do. But what the heck, life is too short. I spend all my waking time thinking about audio, and my sleeping time is often spent solving problems - I often wake up with a problem solved. And its about enjoying music, so when I get a technical improvement that also results in enjoying music more then I naturally want to talk to people who care about audio too.
> 
> ...


 
 I'm sorry to say there is many high end dac sound way better than hugo tt and QBD76 dac .
 one Q : why hugo 26 k taps isn't as rich sound as QBD76 HDSD 18 k taps ?


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## joeexp

raika said:


> I'm sorry to say there is many high end dac sound way better than hugo tt and QBD76 dac .
> one Q : why hugo 26 k taps isn't as rich sound as QBD76 HDSD 18 k taps ?


 

 What point are you making exactly??
 Of course there are better DACs - but which one of them can you carry arround with you?


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## Raika

Trying to move this thread more and get info.
 my point is even if you know your way , also the others have their ways to make dacs sound better . so mr : Rob talks about how awesome his dacs are ? but in reality still there is better dac and cost
 less one of them is iggy  .. we should respect other methods .
 we shall wait and see and better for dave to be the best dac ever or that means other things . you disagree with me mr : Rob .


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## OK-Guy

instead of trolling Rob for a answer perhaps a modicum of respect would be in order... I don't see many arguing against his technical post that are enlightening Head-Fi'ers generally... if you prefer lamb best not buy beef, simples.


----------



## analogmusic

+1
  
 Nobody on this forum has the knowledge to challenge on technical grounds with Rob. So please show some respect.


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## Raika

ok-guy said:


> instead of trolling Rob for a answer perhaps a modicum of respect would be in order... I don't see many arguing against his technical post that are enlightening Head-Fi'ers generally... if you prefer lamb best not buy beef, simples.


 
 I respect mr : Rob and sorry ,I own hugo and love the sound , I'm just asking a question ? feel free to answer .
 Is the Dave greatest dac ever made ?? For me technically yes but the real question should be
 Is it the best sounding dac ???? hard to say since the japanese guy prefer nagara hd + msb  over dave .


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## DaveRedRef-III

Raika
You mentioned MSB which is another respected DAC maker. The Japanese reviewer preferred Nagra HD DAC + MPS battery pack (not MSB) and this was if the choice were at the same price point, which it isn't as the Nagra is double the price I believe and then their is almost £10k for their Nagra Pre-Amp.

Your question regarding the 76 being richer than HUGO is a valid one but as others have said please take care to show respect to Rob. I think he deserves that having afforded so much time to our questions. He is passionate about what he does as many in this business are. However Rob is a cut above most because he goes that extra mile to listen and investigate what is actually going on whereas that is not true of all designers. Equally there are many people out there who will a-b two products in their setup and proclaim one is better than the other. This is not a scientific way of doing things but if it suits them that is all that matters to them. The problem comes when they go on to proclaim something publicly that has not been scientifically established. For instance I could take a TT and put it up against a competitor and conclude the competitor is better but I will lay money the noise floor in my listening room is not currently as good as it could be. What gremlins are being masked by this I wonder and would I change my mind with a lower noise floor. This is why we wait for professional reviewers to do their job. Regarding DAVE I am not convinced the Japanese reviewer wasn't just making a subjective assessment from room to room at the show because I wasn't aware Chord had released any pre-production units for appraisal. Either way if the assessment is valid I would buy Chord over the Nagra every time if the sound results are so close and the price comparison so wide.


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## ChordElectronics

Hi all, I just wanted to address the confusion regarding the US pricing. Currently the US pricing has not been finalised with the dealers and a direct conversion is not standard procedure. Rest assured that once I have an accurate figure I will point you in the right direction.


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## JaZZ

daveredref-iii said:


> Raika
> You mentioned MSB which is another respected DAC maker. The Japanese reviewer preferred Nagra HD DAC + MPS battery pack (not MSB) and this was if the choice were at the same price point, which it isn't as the Nagra is double the price I believe and then their is almost £10k for their Nagra Pre-Amp.
> 
> Your question regarding the 76 being richer than HUGO is a valid one but as others have said please take care to show respect to Rob. I think he deserves that having afforded so much time to our questions. He is passionate about what he does as many in this business are. However Rob is a cut above most because he goes that extra mile to listen and investigate what is actually going on whereas that is not true of all designers. Equally there are many people out there who will a-b two products in their setup and proclaim one is better than the other. This is not a scientific way of doing things but if it suits them that is all that matters to them. The problem comes when they go on to proclaim something publicly that has not been scientifically established. For instance I could take a TT and put it up against a competitor and conclude the competitor is better but I will lay money the noise floor in my listening room is not currently as good as it could be. What gremlins are being masked by this I wonder and would I change my mind with a lower noise floor. This is why we wait for professional reviewers to do their job. Regarding DAVE I am not convinced the Japanese reviewer wasn't just making a subjective assessment from room to room at the show because I wasn't aware Chord had released any pre-production units for appraisal. Either way if the assessment is valid I would buy Chord over the Nagra every time if the sound results are so close and the price comparison so wide.


 

 I agree. Not to forget the DAVE's headphone output à la Hugo, without additional amplification stage, a guarantee for superior accuracy in this respect. The Nagra uses a tube amp for that, so if its DAC is really _objectively_ superior (questionable), this advantage is gambled away here.


----------



## agisthos

raika said:


> I'm sorry to say there is many high end dac sound way better than hugo tt and QBD76 dac .
> one Q : why hugo 26 k taps isn't as rich sound as QBD76 HDSD 18 k taps ?


 
  
  
 Because TAPS are not everything. There is the output stage, there is the power supply, all these things have an large impact on final sound quality. Hugo was built for portability and low power usage. Many design compromises would have been made to get such a small form factor.


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## audionewbi

agisthos said:


> Because TAPS are not everything. There is the output stage, there is the power supply, all these things have an large impact on final sound quality. Hugo was built for portability and low power usage. Many design compromises would have been made to get such a small form factor.



If I remember correctly hugo is not really designed to be compromised. As Mr Watt said before thanks to the new technology hugo is the size it is now, to achieve the current hugo using older technology required car battery size power (or something along those lines)

On the other hand hugo TT design is questionable as it is a hugo with different usb inputs and etc. It is still hugo in core so I am not sure where the change in sounds coming from.


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## DaveRedRef-III

Totally agree agisthos.


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## agisthos

Audionewbi what Rob Watts meant is that onchip processing capability now allows a small Spartan Xilinx to be run by li-ion batteries. This opened the door to portability and a product like Hugo.
  
 Years ago, to get a similar TAPS processing power onchip would have required 20x the power, and probably many FPGA chips paralleled.


----------



## Kakki

daveredref-iii said:


> Kakki
> I wonder is there any more feedback you can provide from that Japanese review? Fully understand if you haven't the time but we are scratching around for as much feedback as we can get right now!


 
  
 Actually, the review is way too long and complex for I to do the translation... please kindly forgive my laziness for not doing further translation!!
 But I can tell you that the last sentence in the review is saying "Chord Dave is the world best DAC as far as I know".
  
 I definitely agree with the reviewer as I heard the actual Dave sound in the hifi show in Tokyo. The sound was more "real" than any DAC I heard in the past.
  
 Just 1 more month and you will have chances to listen to real Dave.
 A listening to the real sound is better than thousand words


----------



## Beolab

I may be slow, but just to confirm, what type of clock are Chord using? 

I cant find Rob answered to my question. 
Is it a Crystal or Quarts type or?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Kakki 
 Fully understand your time constraints and appreciate the feedback you have already provided.
  
 The closing proclamation of the Japanese reviewer that "Chord Dave is the world best DAC as far as I know" is interesting when set against his earlier statement that if the price were level with Nagra HD DAC he would choose Nagra. Perhaps he just prefers tubes.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Kakki
 Would you say the images DAVE produces are well focussed? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this aspect of its abilities.


----------



## agisthos

Remember the Nagra DAC is built around DSD processing. So when​ comparing it to DAVE, are they talking about DSD or PCM music?
  
 From what I can gather, Chord products are designed to extract the best sound from Redbook and PCM, which is fine by me, as listening to test tracks gets boring, real fast.


----------



## Raika

agisthos said:


> Remember the Nagra DAC is built around DSD processing. So when​ comparing it to DAVE, are they talking about DSD or PCM music?
> 
> From what I can gather, Chord products are designed to extract the best sound from Redbook and PCM, which is fine by me, as listening to test tracks gets boring, real fast.


 
 ok that is very important point ,I took this from  mr isquirrel  : I believe Nagra converts everything to DSD . me too I believe that


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Beolab
 I think Rob intimated somewhere it was Crystal. Read so much over the last couple of weeks that I can't remember where!


----------



## JaZZ

> *«...So a regular quartz oscillator is best sounding...»*


 
  
 From Rob's post.


----------



## Hiyono

Maybe Rob Watts can give us more imformation. Does Dave use 4 FPGAs? What task does each one do?

"Like Hugo, Hugo TT and 2Qute, this is another FPGA-code fest from Rob Watts. Four FPGAs sit at the centre of the Dave. Providing financial context at the 2015 Munich High-End Show launch, Watts contrasts the ~US$300 price of a single Xilinx Spartan FPGA chip with that of an off-the-shelf decoder from the likes or Texas Instruments or AKM, the typical cost of which cost is US$4."
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2015/05/chord-electronics-launch-dave-dac-at-munich-high-end-2015/


----------



## audiobill

I wouldn't even try to speak for Rob, but I don't believe that each of the four FPGAs are used for a specific task or function. My understanding is that their combined parallel processing power is what's required to perform the level of computation needed to implement the 164,000 taps and extreme upsampling algorithms that Rob is implementing in DAVE. There are 166 separate DSP cores being used to implement the WTA filtering alone.


----------



## Beolab

And MSB charge $4400 - $8800 for a new upgrade Crystal Femto clock ladder, i wounder what the producing cost realy is, maybe 10% of the price or even lower if we look at the processor industry. 

My gues is next gen DACs are based on a Intel XEON "FPGA" chipset instead of the Xilinx Spartan, for even more clock speed and faster calculations like Apple did for example. 

They started with IBM processors and later switched to Intel..


----------



## agisthos

Its possible the FPGA part of the XEON is not that large. Or it may be way better than the Xilinx products?


----------



## Rob Watts

Dave has a single FPGA, with about ten times the capacity of Hugo's. I don't know where 4 came from, that would have been the DAC 64.
  
 It controls everything, including the display, which means that apart from the USB decoder (which is not on Dave's ground as its galvanically isolated), there are no other digital processing devices. This way I get the lowest possible noise, with everything running from the crystal oscillator. That said, it was a pain creating my own font generator to drive the display.
  
 It uses 5A of current, just to feed the FPGA, so has a big heatsink clamped to the device. 
  
 Just to further clarify - Dave is still a work in progress. So further (small) improvements are coming (made some last night). Also we have not released product for review as its not finished, so any impressions are based from shows only.
  
 Another point - something I have only recently got working - there are two different programs for the FPGA function. One that gives the best PCM which is called PCM+, and one that gives best DSD, DSD+. The DSD+ has lower latency WTA for use with video if the latency of PCM+ is too long. PCM+ has Hugo's DSD filter. It takes about a second to switch modes.
  
 The reason for this is because I wanted non decimating DSD filters, and to get the necessary filtering to remove the HF distortion and noise from DSD, required a lot of DSP resources - there is actually 64 cores running to do the DSD. And I could not get all this complexity to fit with the 164,000 taps together.
  
 Rob


----------



## Raika

and what about the amp of dave ?
 thanks for your info, waiting for more .


----------



## rkt31

wow yiggy is better than hugo, who says ? why even after months of release of yiggy ,no respectable  magazine has tested it ? any idea ? hugo is tested by almost all magazines and websites  as a  portable as well as desktop device and in my knowledge no magazine or website till date has given it a negative review for sound quality, except some dubious reviews by a member on this forum. i will again say don't believe the over hyped reviews of yiggy. compare your self. in many reviews the yiggy has been reported  has having coarse treble which initially might give the impression of extra detail but can induce fatigue in long listen. with hugo there is no such report for treble part ( again only a member of this forum complained about the hugo's treble ) even im very much interested in reviews of yiggy by a reputed magazine. pls inform when you find one  .


----------



## OK-Guy

in other news for USA & Canadian viewers... I have been reliably informed by Chord that 'Bluebird Music' will be making an announcement re-DAVE at the end of the week, this will include pricing, hth... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Link:  http://www.bluebirdmusic.com/


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Rob,
 Thanks for the additional explanation.
  
 You mention "PCM+ has Hugo's DSD filter" - Why use a legacy DSD filter for PCM+?


----------



## audiobill

ok-guy said:


> in other news for USA & Canadian viewers... I have been reliably informed by Chord that 'Bluebird Music' will be making an announcement re-DAVE at the end of the week, this will include pricing, hth...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 At the bottom of the Bluebird Music webpage for DAVE, it states that the US retail is $16,000 US complete with integrated stand, ($20,900 Canadian).


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Dave has a single FPGA, with about ten times the capacity of Hugo's. I don't know where 4 came from, that would have been the DAC 64.
> 
> It controls everything, including the display, which means that apart from the USB decoder (which is not on Dave's ground as its galvanically isolated), there are no other digital processing devices. This way I get the lowest possible noise, with everything running from the crystal oscillator. That said, it was a pain creating my own font generator to drive the display.
> 
> ...




@Rob Watts

Will DAVE and Hugo/Qute2 see new firmwares updates that the user can upgrade through USB input in future ? 

Dave will also have MQA format support i hope in your final upgrades before launch??


----------



## OK-Guy

audiobill said:


> At the bottom of the Bluebird Music webpage for DAVE, it states that the US retail is $16,000 US complete with integrated stand, ($20,900 Canadian).


 
  
 my understanding is that there will be a clarification of prices within the announcement to save on the confusion that currently exist... without trying to pre-empt things, you'll probably see prices for DAVE with & without stand, hth...


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## audiobill

OK-Guy > Thanks for the clarification regarding the price clarification!


----------



## agisthos

daveredref-iii said:


> Rob,
> Thanks for the additional explanation.
> 
> You mention "PCM+ has Hugo's DSD filter" - Why use a legacy DSD filter for PCM+?


 

 err... read it again.?


----------



## Hiyono

I find it weird that it's priced so high in the USA. In Japan it's 1,500,000yen which is $12,500. Usually imported gear in Japan is more expensive then in USA.


----------



## Rob Watts

Its a very efficient filter with a small gate count, so it can fit with the 164,000 taps. And it sounds very good, but not as good as Dave DSD + filter, which is non decimating and has improved filtering.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> Will DAVE and Hugo/Qute2 see new firmwares updates that the user can upgrade through USB input in future ?
> 
> Dave will also have MQA format support i hope in your final upgrades before launch??


 
 Hugo and 2 Qute won't have any upgrades. The knowledge gained from Dave means it will only work with more gates, so Hugo platform is pretty much optimum given the size of the FPGA.
  
 Dave is possible to have an upgrade, but this would be back to distributor or Chord. I will only do an upgrade if we can make an improvement that is substantial though. Since my FPGA technology is maturing, its less likely to have one though. The DAC 64 had a lot of changes, QBD less, Qute even less, Hugo none...
  
 Rob


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## DaveRedRef-III

Rob
 Thanks for the reply but I am still puzzled.
  
 If the DSD+ filter sounds better than the DSD filter and it also has less latency, why not use the best DSD filter (new DSD+ filter) with PCM+ also? Is it that the HUGO DSD filter sounds better with PCM than the new DSD+ filter does? 
  
 Sorry to labour the point


----------



## audiobill

My understanding based upon Rob's previous post is that the PCM+ filter sounds best for PCM, and the DSD+ filter sounds best for DSD. The two best sounding filters cannot simultaneously exist within the capacity of DAVE, therefore a switch is provided to allow you to select the preferred filter based upon what type of files you are playing. In other words when the PCM+ filter is loaded there is not enough capacity to simultaneously support DSD+, so he provided the simpler DSD filter with PCM+. HTH!


----------



## Rob Watts

It's simply because the DSD+ filter is too big to fit with the PCM+ 164,000 tap filter. It was under 70% capacity but the design was not routable. But the low latency 82,000 tap is much smaller...
  
 Rob


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks


----------



## Raika

Can dave play dsd natively  ?


----------



## Hiyono

Thanks Rob for all the details


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Hugo and 2 Qute won't have any upgrades. The knowledge gained from Dave means it will only work with more gates, so Hugo platform is pretty much optimum given the size of the FPGA.
> 
> Dave is possible to have an upgrade, but this would be back to distributor or Chord. I will only do an upgrade if we can make an improvement that is substantial though. Since my FPGA technology is maturing, its less likely to have one though. The DAC 64 had a lot of changes, QBD less, Qute even less, Hugo none...
> 
> Rob




@Rob Watts 

So no MQA support or ?? 

This is a respons to you from Jonathan Gullman at MSB to your statement about jitter clocks in other companys DAC:s: 

*Every test we have done has proven lower jitter measures and sounds better. We have made our own clocks and do not use the standard "femto clock" that there's have gone on and on about. 

Because of our DAC design and the location of our clock in the DAC, the small changes in the jitter makes a different. 

He is right that each logic level adds jitter. He specified 4ps for each switch. This might be if you are using old generic logic! Devices we use add about 2 femto seconds or less of jitter, not 4,000 femto seconds! This being said, if you are using logic that added 4,000 femto seconds (4pS) of jitter, reducing the jitter of the clock isn't going to help that much because the jitter of the logic is the dominating factor! 

Jonathan Gullman

*


What is your conclusion of this statement Jonathan? 


Originally Posted by Rob Watts View Post

The issue of clocks is actually very complex, way more of a problem then in simply installing femto clocks. People always want a simple answer to problems even if the problem is multi-dimensional and complex. I will give you a some examples of the complexities of this issue.

Some years back a femto clock became available, and I was very excited about using it as it had a third of the cycle to cycle jitter of the crystal oscillators we were using. So I plugged it in, and listened to it. Unexpectedly, it sounded brighter and harder - completely the opposite of all the times I have listened to lower jitter. When you lower jitter levels in the master clock, it sounds smoother and warmer and more natural.

So I did some careful measurements, and I could see some problems.

The noise floor was OK, the same as before, and all the usual measurements were the same. But you could see more fringing on the fundamental, and this was quite apparent. Now when you do a FFT of say a 1 kHz sine wave, in an ideal world you would see the tone at 1 kHz and each frequency bucket away the output would be the systems noise floor. That is, you get a sharp single line representing the tone. But with a real FFT, you get smearing of the tone, and this is due to the windowing function employed by the FFT and jitter problems within the ADC, so instead of a single line you get a number of lines with the edges tailing of into the noise. This is known as side lobes or fringing. Now one normally calibrates the FFT and the instrument so you know what the ideal should be. Now with a DAC that has low frequency jitter, you get more fringing. Now I have spent many years on jitter and eliminating the effects of it on sound quality, and I know that fringing is highly audible, as I have done many listening tests on it. What is curious, is that it sounds exactly like noise floor modulation - so reduce fringing is the same as reducing noise floor modulation - they both subjectively sound smoother and darker with less edge and hardness.

So a clock that had lower cycle to cycle jitter actually had much worse low frequency jitter, and it was the low frequency jitter that was causing the problem and this had serious sound quality consequences. So a simple headline statement of low jitter is meaningless. But actually the problem is very much more complex than this.

What is poorly understood is that DAC architectures can tolerate vastly different levels of master clock jitter, and this is way more important than the headline oscillator jitter number. I will give you a few examples:

1. DAC structure makes a big difference. I had a silicon chip design I was working on some years back. When you determine the jitter sensitivity you can specify this - so I get a number of incoming jitter, and a number for the OP THD and noise that is needed. So initially we were working with 4pS jitter, and 120dB THD and noise. No problem, the architecture met this requirement as you can create models to run simulations to show what the jitter will do - and you can run the model so only jitter is changed, nothing else. But then the requirements got changed to 15 pS jitter. Again, no problem, I simply redesigned the DAC and then achieved these numbers. So its easy to change the sensitivity by a factor of 4 just by design of the DAC itself - something that audio designers using chips can't do.

2. DAC type has a profound effect on performance. The most sensitive is regular DSD or PDM, where jitter is modulation dependent, and you get pattern noise from the noise shaper degrading the output noise, plus distortion from jitter. R2R DAC's are very sensitive as they create noise floor modulation from jitter proportionate to the rate of change of signal (plus other problems due to the slow speed of switching elements). I was very concerned about these issues, and its one reason I invented pulse array, as the benefit of pulse array is that the error from jitter is only a fixed noise (using random jitter source with no low frequency problems). Now a fixed noise is subjectively unimportant - it does not interfere with the brains ability to decode music. Its when errors are signal dependent that the problems of perception start, and with pulse array I only get a fixed noise - and I know this for a fact due to simulation and measurements.

3. The DAC degrades clock jitter. What is not appreciated is that master clock jitter is only the start of the problem. When a clock goes through logic elements, (buffers level shifters, clock trees gates and flip-flops plus problem of induced noise) every stage adds more jitter. As a rough rule of thumb a logic element adds 1 pS of more jitter. So a clock input of 1pS will degrade through the device to be effectively 4 pS once it has gone through these elements (this was the number from a device I worked on some years ago). So its the actual jitter on the DAC active elements that is important not the clock starting jitter. 

The benefit I have with Pulse Array is that the jitter has no sound quality degrading consequences - unlike all other architectures - as it creates no distortion or noise floor modulation. Because the clock is very close to the active elements (only one logic level away), the jitter degradation is minimal and there are no skirting issues at all. This has been confirmed with simulation and measurement - its a fixed noise, and by eliminating the clock jitter (I have a special way of doing this) noise only improves by a negligible 0.5 dB (127 dB to 127.5 dB). 

This is true of all pulse array DAC's even the simpler 4e ones. In short the jitter problem was solved many years ago, but I don't bleat on about it as its not an issue and because it's way too complex a subject to easily discuss.

I hope I have given a flavour here of some of the complexities.

Rob


----------



## Raika

*I know '' femto clock '' from msb is one of the best ,many owners of msb said they notice Huge Improvement in sound quality when the upgrade with new femto clock .*
*also they prove with  measurements , but the price is high .but many say it's worth it .*
*I hope chord develop new clock to eliminate this annoying jitter .*


----------



## Raika

*And this comes from schiit Audio Jason Stoddard* : about taps , jitter and femoto clock : _*who is right ?????????*_
  
*1. Beyond a certain number of taps, the coefficients become meaningless* (think, instead of multiplying by 1.1845232001302014400012051603, you're multiplying by 1.0000000000000000000000000000001.) Tap length is like megapixels. Just because it's bigger doesn't mean it's better.
  
*2. Femto clocks frequently only achieve those "femto" jitter levels far above the audio band and are meaningless unless they make a difference in jitter at the word clock.* Yggdrasil already pretty much has the best jitter performance available (look up atomicbob's independent measurements here on head-fi: http://www.head-fi.org/t/764787/yggdrasil-technical-measurements).
  
*Jitter.* Oh gawd, people love jitter. They just love, love, love it. They love to throw numbers like 0.2pS at the screen and talk about “femto” clocks and how their jitter is just the lowest possible number it can be. But there are several problems with this:
  

The number of individuals who can actually measure sub-pS jitter is very, very, very low—it requires a $30K instrument that does exactly one thing: measure jitter
“Femto” clocks—clocks with femtosecond level jitter—frequently only have femto performance at very high frequencies…and are dependent on layout, logic, power supplies, PCB noise, etc, etc…so they may not really mean anything
Most don’t measure jitter where it matters—at the word clock to the DAC—because the number will be higher than those sub-pS readings
  
 We measure jitter on all our designs at the word clock with an interval analyzer. On the best designs, we can get down around single-digit pS numbers.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Raika -"_*who is right ?????????"*_
  
 Best to judge with your ears I think.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

.............I would add also that your body and emotions will also tell you a lot.


----------



## OK-Guy

so my reading of the above statement is that a 'off the shelf' DAC needs a Femto Clock to work properly(?) or should I say to optimum performance levels... small point but Chord don't use $5 DAC's in their products, they kinda moved on from that approach yonks ago. 
  
 speaking personally... I tend to find that if you think outside the box and travel down a different path people are only to ready to ridicule what you are trying to achieve especially when they feel threatened... I prefer to think that Rob & Chord are creating new musical dawns, next Wednesday really will be very, very special...


----------



## Raika

The R2R DAC leads the wave until NOW , will Chord Dave be able to change everything !! I hope so .


----------



## rkt31

better to listen and test through own ears instead what is said in the forums like r2r is better or delta sigma better. if some one go solely by the information on net, there is more which supports Delta sigma than r2r . some very expensive brands still using r2r does not make r2r best. some people have taken that post 'why delta sigma sucks' to seriously I thought. that post is now already dead . the op could not prove what he wanted in that post.


----------



## audiobill

ok-guy said:


> so my reading of the above statement is that a 'off the shelf' DAC needs a Femto Clock to work properly(?) or should I say to optimum performance levels... small point but Chord don't use $5 DAC's in their products, they kinda moved on from that approach yonks ago.
> 
> speaking personally... I tend to find that if you think outside the box and travel down a different path people are only to ready to ridicule what you are trying to achieve especially when they feel threatened... I prefer to think that Rob & Chord are creating new musical dawns, next Wednesday really will be very, very special...


 
 I must have missed something, what is happening next Wednesday? TIA!


----------



## agisthos

Regarding the DSD filter, would it still be best to do DSD to PCM conversion in software, and then feed the DAVE with PCM? Berkeley Audio has chosen this route for their new DAC.


----------



## OK-Guy

audiobill said:


> I must have missed something, what is happening next Wednesday? TIA!


 
  
 here's a hint, http://www.head-fi.org/t/782815/chord-electronics-the-shard-event#post_11961377


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Have to say Jason Stoddard seems, in his response, to damn with half-truths.
  
 It is a very important point he makes regarding 'which point in the chain jitter is tested' but that does not imply MSB for instance are anything less than exemplary in their jitter reporting. His 'taps' comment is rather meaningless though because a) It does not address specifically a theoretical nadir for the level of taps required to achieve the most accurate reproduction of the sampled sound wave and b) On the subject of a maths related issue, his mathematical example probably does him more disservice than Chord. We all understand his over-riding point but even that ignores the issue of 'what is relevant and meaningful' in number of taps. The impact of using taps to solve the problem cannot be denied. As many audiophiles will tell you when they first heard the DAC64. Is 164k meaningful on the road to 'exactly reproducing the sampled sound wave' or is it overkill? Rob Watts says it can be proven mathematically that you can achieve this goal with 1m taps, so that would imply he is still on the road to improvements rather than passed the point at which it is meaningful. As with Mr Stoddard's comment on Jitter, both parties involved can be exactly right in what they say and do because nothing is specific in the critique.  
  
 I think its worth highlighting that Mr Stoddard currently designs his dacs to 21 bits of resolution whereas I believe Dave DAC is capable of resolving 48bit accuracy or more. Any mathematician should be able to confirm this is not double the processing, it is a magnitude above that of 21 bit resolution. But hey, is processing what it is all about? I would say mathematics has a big part to play in digital audio but I am equally sure Shilt Dacs are very good in their own right judging by the reviews.
  
 At the end of the day, it will all be in the listening and I guess we should be glad that there are so many companies out there who are pushing the envelope further in order to satisfy us audiophiles.


----------



## Raika

I don't think so until Mr : Rob say something .


----------



## Beolab

I think Jason got a point about taps is like a 4k or 1080p HD screen but you only fill it up with 576p signal information, and the picture quality are not going to be better. 

And if 27000 taps like in hugo against 1500 like in all other r2r / Delta sigma dac use, it should sounded miles better than every one else, but it does not, so it cant be that important is my conclusion. 

It got just miles better headroom if it should be necessary at any given moment, but do not have any use of it, thats why you do not here any big difference.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thing is Beolab, we may still be way off the equivalent of 1080p. We don't know yet and who knows how much greater the difference may be heard when conversion is pushed on to the speaker output of the amp? Everything is inter-related as I am sure you appreciate and it may be that DAVE or perhaps someone else's DAC is actually head and shoulders above the rest if final conversion is delayed to the power amps speaker outlet.


----------



## Mython

While I am no expert in DAC technicalities, mathematics, and minutiae, I'm sure I am not alone in finding it quite amusing to note that Rob has been ploughing his own furrow for many years, with regard to the potential benefits of increasing tap lengths, with almost the entire digital audio industry seemingly either ignoring, or playing-down the relevance of, this approach in seeking to move the state of the digital-to-analogue (and A-to-D) conversion art forwards.
  
 And yet...  in recent years, many have been thoroughly enjoying the fruits of this approach, _even though it hasn't even truly hit its stride yet!_ (Hugo was certainly a _very_ promising eye-opener, that Rob's work has progressed in recent years, under the freeing influence of greater FPGA horsepower, and DAVE may prove to be the first, shall we say, 'Vintage' year for Rob's technology)_,_ but *still* we have onlookers down-playing the relevance of his approach, even though it is _very obviously_ maturing into something rather special, in spite of_ theoretical_ protestations from the naysayers.
  
 Do I believe Rob's approach will be the_ complete_ saviour of digital audio? No, of course not - and I doubt he would claim it to be such, either. But Rob is quite evidently onto something exceedingly relevant; naysayers or no naysayers, and I think any digital audio engineer (no matter how skilled, knowledgeable, successful, admired, revered, etc.) would be wise to hold their tongue and *observe* what fruits Rob's efforts may bring to the industry, as his approach hits its stride, rather than continuing to downplay it with theoretical objections.
  
 A lot of very learned & revered people once _*vehemently*_ believed and asserted that our little world is flat... (oh, wait - that's not such a good example, because it turns out the world actually _*is*_ flat, and NASA has been lying to us for the past 5 decades 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Nevermind, Rob, there are 'quite a few' of us, around the world, who appreciate your determination to advance the state of the art, for the benefit of our music listening pleasure rather than our pet technical standpoints.
  
  
*“People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”*


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Well said Mython. I would not back against Rob Watts given his track record.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Sorry for off topic but I came across this version of Albinoni's Adagio in G minor yesterday. I am not a big classical music buff but I believe it is Gary Karr playing the double bass. What a wonderfully emotional performance it is too.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRTlAAC6rI0


----------



## rkt31

why interpolation is required can be explained with a analogy. if a 6 mp image is to be printed to 3" x2" size without any interpolation, only about 83 dots per inch printing is needed as 6mp is 3000x2000. that print will be ok considering the large viewing distance for 3" x2" print. but if you look closer in that print you will be able to see some empty spaces between the dots as 83 dots per inch are not good enough for close viweing. so to improve that aspect get the 6mp image interpolated as per 300 dots per inch in software. this interpolation will not increase actual detail but it will allow printing at 300dpi to remove any empty spaces even when watched closely. in reality we may not need beyond 6mp ( just like 16bit 44.1khz in case of audio) but accurate interpolation may improve the overall experience. further extension of analogy can be for nos dac where image is printed at 83dpi means quantization noise filter not applied. if you put an opaque diffusing screen in front of a 83dpi print, that will diffuse the empty spaces of 83dpi print with printed dots which is akin to putting s sharp roll off filter for removing quantization noise in case of nos dac, affecting the overall details.


----------



## Beolab

daveredref-iii said:


> Sorry for off topic but I came across this version of Albinoni's Adagio in G minor yesterday. I am not a big classical music buff but I believe it is Gary Karr playing the double bass. What a wonderfully emotional performance it is too.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRTlAAC6rI0




Is it Werner Muller & Orchestra ho is playing or ?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Not sure Beolab
  
 I think this is the recording
 http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=Albinoni+Adagio+gary+karr


----------



## Raika

rkt31 said:


> better to listen and test through own ears instead what is said in the forums like r2r is better or delta sigma better. if some one go solely by the information on net, there is more which supports Delta sigma than r2r . some very expensive brands still using r2r does not make r2r best. some people have taken that post 'why delta sigma sucks' to seriously I thought. that post is now already dead . the op could not prove what he wanted in that post.


 
   
Yes agreed ,but i'm comparing high end dacs , the bad delta r2r left behind ., I listened to many 2r2 including Trinity, DCS ,MSB,Chord...and many very very good dac..the main reason I see r2r still better , I notice the r2r has more texture in the sound while delta sound very smooth , while some of them have some degree of that texture buy not the same level as r2r , I prefer texture sound of r2r like my old msb why ? cause it's sound more natural .


----------



## Raika

By the way ,anyone interested to buy new speakers please don't miss this opportunity : order Elac new speakers for 229 $ really high end sound with very very low price . I hope you guys try them . It will change the way you look at high end speakers . here is the link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KZ7ig9EiNI


----------



## OK-Guy

*You Talked, We Listened... The Game Will Change !!!*​  ​ *Date: 14.10.15 - Venue: The Shard*​  ​ ​  ​ 



* ...The Competition is free to enter and open TO ALL !!!...*



​  ​ *Competition Link:*  http://www.head-fi.org/t/782815/chord-electronics-the-shard-event​


----------



## Skampmeister

You guys will lose your minds when you find out what Chord is releasing next week. 

I know I did..


----------



## Beolab

skampmeister said:


> You guys will lose your minds when you find out what Chord is releasing next week.
> 
> I know I did..




Revolutionary streamer with Chords own MQA like format with its own DSD streaming for only £9 / month . 

So can you just give us a hint if it is a amp or a stramer ?


----------



## Skampmeister

A hint, Austin Powers.........

That hint will only be possible to understand once you know what the product is, and no, I will not let you know what it is because I do not want to spoil Chords event.


----------



## Raika

maybe speakers or headphones .


----------



## smial1966

*Austin Powers eh. Mini-me springs to mind, so a smaller, more compact version of an existing Chord product perhaps? Possibly a smaller Hugo with built-in screen, a U.I. and device storage , so essentially a DAP.*
  
  

  
 Quote:


skampmeister said:


> A hint, Austin Powers.........
> 
> That hint will only be possible to understand once you know what the product is, and no, I will not let you know what it is because I do not want to spoil Chords event.


----------



## TokenGesture

smial1966 said:


>


 

 The Hugo MM (Mini Me)


----------



## Beolab

skampmeister said:


> A hint, Austin Powers.........
> 
> That hint will only be possible to understand once you know what the product is, and no, I will not let you know what it is because I do not want to spoil Chords event.




Intresting.. 

Mini Hugo Me Streamer 

Or else its a big Chord product..


----------



## Skampmeister

I'm not going to say what it is, but what do you want it to be?

If I had the choice of a new Chord product, a hi-Rez streamer not the vein of a 2qute formfactor built the way only Chord can would be my dream product.


----------



## joeexp

A Chord Turntable LOL -


----------



## Skampmeister

Imagine the awesome chunk of aluminum a chord TT would be. Heavenly.


----------



## JaZZ

> *Chord have described it as their biggest product launch ever, and are using words like «revolutionary».*


 
  
 So it must be something really big.


----------



## Raika

I hope it will be at reasonable price .


----------



## Skampmeister

What I want are more affordable stands for the Chordette range, it cost as much for the stand than it does to buy the 2qute.


----------



## audiobill

Getting back to DAVE's US pricing, I see that an authorized Chord dealer has just updated their site and now shows the price to be $13,300 without the optional stand and $16,000 with it. This now agrees with the $16,000 with stand price posted by the US distributor, Bluebird Music.


----------



## Skampmeister

It's $19,000 in Australia, without the stand.


----------



## OK-Guy

skampmeister said:


> It's $19,000 in Australia, without the stand.


 
  
 bet the Italians are glad they joined the Euro otherwise they'd be forking out millions... lucky huh...


----------



## OK-Guy

ok-guy said:


> *You Talked, We Listened... The Game Will Change !!!*​  ​ *Date: 14.10.15 - Venue: The Shard*​  ​ ​  ​
> 
> 
> * ...The Competition is free to enter and open TO ALL !!!...*
> ...


 
 ​ *37.5hrs till the Grand Draw...*



​  ​


----------



## Hubert H

Hi Rob,
  
 This may be a bit late or indeed nonsense as far as you are concerned, but would it be possible to add a discrete volume level or even 3 to the Dave, possibly settable? By this I mean a button that reduces volume instantly without muting the output. There are a couple of reasons, first I listen to a lot of radio (the original Arcam DAB tuner feeding my Chord Indigo - Chord's current best DAC and with a headphone out to boot   ) and I always have to turn the volume down when the DJ/announcer comes back on. Or if someone calls or knocks on the door and I don't want to completely mute the music, just reduce it. I assume it's easy to create a set point(s) as per the Hugo, maybe to even select a turn on volume regardless of the volume set when turned off - not aware of these features on other volume controlled devices.
  
 H.


----------



## Beolab

hubert h said:


> Hi Rob,
> 
> This may be a bit late or indeed nonsense as far as you are concerned, but would it be possible to add a discrete volume level or even 3 to the Dave, possibly settable? By this I mean a button that reduces volume instantly without muting the output. There are a couple of reasons, first I listen to a lot of radio (the original Arcam DAB tuner feeding my Chord Indigo - Chord's current best DAC and with a headphone out to boot   ) and I always have to turn the volume down when the DJ/announcer comes back on. Or if someone calls or knocks on the door and I don't want to completely mute the music, just reduce it. I assume it's easy to create a set point(s) as per the Hugo, maybe to even select a turn on volume regardless of the volume set when turned off - not aware of these features on other volume controlled devices.
> 
> H.




OT 

You made my day
Very small odds my friend, but hey!: 
Hope is the last thing that leaves the human.. 

Rob: Can you manage to squeeze in a micro wave in the Dave would be a huge plus, because then we HeadFi:ers do not need to leave for lunch break, but that chance is less than 1 in a million..  

Have a nice evening fellow Headfi:ers!


----------



## Skampmeister

Very small odds.


----------



## audiobill

Chord World-Wide Launch - This announcement shows the launch of Chord's DAVE DAC in London October 14th, New York October 15th, followed up in San Francisco October 22nd, then in LA October 24th and Toronto October 30th. Unfortunately I'm in Chicago! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Hopefully we'll see many more comments on its performance here in the next few days!


----------



## holeout

Can I crash on the launch party? Just happen to be in London these few days and I've been waiting for the Dave since Rob pm me 15 months ago


----------



## gzone3lement

I would be down in checking out the Chord Dave on October 22 in the Bay Area. This is great!


----------



## Skampmeister

Here ya go, the new Chord product, it's leaked now, so I can share.........

http://www.stereo.net.au/news/leaked-chord-redefines-portable-audio-with-mojo


----------



## joeexp

skampmeister said:


> Here ya go, the new Chord product, it's leaked now, so I can share.........
> 
> http://www.stereo.net.au/news/leaked-chord-redefines-portable-audio-with-mojo


 
  
 Lessons learned:
 1) How not to launch a new product. 
 2) How not to cannibalise your own product range.....
  
  
 What Amateur Professionals....


----------



## Skampmeister

It's going to sell like hot cakes though.


----------



## analogmusic

Not at all.
  
 the Hugo was simply too expensive at 1400 GBP for many people
  
 now this is a very good price, and it will sell very well to younger people who just could not pay for a Hugo.
  
 Quote:


joeexp said:


> Lessons learned:
> 1) How not to launch a new product.
> 2) How not to cannibalise your own product range.....
> 
> ...


----------



## Skampmeister

Someone I know who has one and has had a Hugo also, says they are so close it's hard to pick.


----------



## Beolab

skampmeister said:


> Someone I know who has one and has had a Hugo also, says they are so close it's hard to pick.




From what reply are you referring to ?

What DAC are so close to Hugo?


----------



## Skampmeister

The Mojo.


----------



## Whazzzup

Only in Canada you say


----------



## audiobill

Was anyone here able to attend DAVE's official launch either in London yesterday or in New York today? I'm anxious to know whether those who heard it found that it sets a new standard in digital reproduction superior to anything else they've heard, or just another one of many other good sounding DAC choices already available. Your thoughts and any comparisons you could share will be most helpful to those of us that are unable to attend and will be most appreciated! Thanks in advance for your time.


----------



## AndrewH13

audiobill said:


> Was anyone here able to attend DAVE's official launch either in London yesterday or in New York today? I'm anxious to know whether those who heard it found that it sets a new standard in digital reproduction superior to anything else they've heard, or just another one of many other good sounding DAC choices already available. Your thoughts and any comparisons you could share will be most helpful to those of us that are unable to attend and will be most appreciated! Thanks in advance for your time.




I was at the Chord London August 14th launch party. It was purely for Mojo, not Dave.


----------



## bmichels

andrewh13 said:


> I was at the Chord London August 14th launch party. It was purely for Mojo, not Dave.


----------



## audiobill

I apologize if I misinterpreted this announcement, after re-reading it DAVE may only be included in the New York event on October 15th. Was anyone in attendance that can share their impressions please?


----------



## Raika

Will Chord update to the newest chip like they do with Mojo ?


----------



## Mython

Different chip requirements in a portable device than in a desktop device.
  
 Rob will use the most advanced chip he feels necessary & appropriate, in order to maximise the performance of the DAVE, but in order to do that, he need not necessarily use the same FPGA chip as is contained in the tiny Mojo.


----------



## Raika

He should tell us more about David sorry Dave . Let's wait for now .


----------



## Mython

raika said:


> He should tell us more about David sorry Dave . Let's wait for now .


 
  
  
 Seriously?
  
 Have you actually taken the time to read the entire thread?
  
 Rob is the most generous designer I know, with the depth of his technical explanations, here on Head-fi (look in the Hugo thread(s), too).
  
 There is even some discussion from Rob, on youtube, regarding technicalities of the Hugo and the DAVE.
  
 Here's a recent DAVE one:


----------



## Duncan

raika said:


> He should tell us more about David sorry Dave . Let's wait for now .


Why would you want a low power chip in a high power product? That really doesn't work...

I have a feeling you're spamming all Chord threads, which is bad for karma...


----------



## Mython

Loads of technical discussion here:
  
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/u/394072/rob-watts
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/forums/posts/by_user/id/394072


----------



## Beolab

Any info when Chord starts to ship the DAVE so we can read the first proper review!?


----------



## OK-Guy

beolab said:


> Any info when Chord starts to ship the DAVE so we can read the first proper review!?


 
  
 not long now, testing etc. is almost completed... I'll see if there's any updates tomorrow Beolab and get back to you...


----------



## audiobill

According to the North American Chord distributor Bluebird Music, it's scheduled to start shipping at the end of October. They go on to state that customers ordering now will receive them in mid-November and their next allocation is expected in early December. Of course this may differ in other regions.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Would be nice to hear more feedback from audiophiles who have listened to DAVE at one of the shows


----------



## audiobill

I read a post from someone who attended the New York event last week who stated that DAVE was only on static display yet again.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I guess I will just have to buy it and find out.


----------



## Mython

audiobill said:


> I read a post from someone who attended the New York event last week who stated that DAVE was only on static display yet again.


 
  
  
 Perfection takes time   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  
_"Rome wasn't built in a day"_, etc. etc.
  
  
 Yes, I know; it's a cliche, but no less true, in spite of it.
  
 I'm sure Rob is pulling out all the stops to make DAVE a superb performer, and he's been openly honest about the fact that the project continues to be a work-in-progress. If that takes longer than originally anticipated, then so be it - I'm confident that the eventual result will prove to have been well worth the wait.


----------



## audiobill

I have to keep reminding myself that patience is a virtue!


----------



## rkt31

will dave be available in black ?


----------



## rkt31

I mean black color !


----------



## Jiffi32

I asked colin from Chord that question at a recent show and he said yes, but, not in first batch​


----------



## bmichels

mython said:


> I'm sure Rob is pulling out all the stops to make DAVE a superb performer, and he's been openly honest about the fact that the project continues to be a work-in-progress.


 
  
*If only the DAVE could be operated on battery like a UBER-TT* (even if they need to be BIG, like the 7Ah batteries inside the A&K 500n ) so that I can use also in my garden....   but I know this will not hapen 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  And I keept repeting myself, which is anowing I know... sorry. I won't do it anymore.  promiss


----------



## JaZZ

jiffi32 said:


> I asked Colin from Chord that question at a recent show and he said yes, but, not in first batch​


 
  
 Oh, that's a pity! – So what to do now?!


----------



## Jiffi32

get a silver one and a tin of black spray paint?


----------



## AndrewH13

jiffi32 said:


> :blink:  get a silver one and a tin of black spray paint?




I'm choking, just picturing someone opening up their new £7995 piece of HiFi and getting the black spray can out on it 

Wonder if Chord would approve, LOL?


----------



## Mython

www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread/1470#post_12012470
  


rob watts said:


> I am in San Francisco doing a Dave and Mojo event tomorrow at Audio High (yes* I have fully finished audio path Dave with me too - first time its been on show*) - so I have done some figures on a back of an envelope - Mojo should be capable of delivering more than 400 mW RMS into 49 ohms, not 118 mW so you will get more than 115dB SPL.
> 
> Rob


----------



## Mavwong

With this alone Rob you earn my respect!
  
 And Dave will be on my top list if I could afford it. Now with only hugo, and hold on to TT purchase as I can't pass Dave can I?
  
 Please tell me Rob you will be in Singapore soon or next year Feb Singapore CanJam. By then hope I have enough fund for Dave.
  
  
 Mav
  
  
  
  
 Quote:


rob watts said:


> Hmm, don't like being self-righteous so apologies!
> 
> Yes I got some flack from Chord initially about my postings in that I was giving too much information away and perhaps I do. But what the heck, life is too short. I spend all my waking time thinking about audio, and my sleeping time is often spent solving problems - I often wake up with a problem solved. And its about enjoying music, so when I get a technical improvement that also results in enjoying music more then I naturally want to talk to people who care about audio too.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes actually I am pretty busy in Singapore - I don't have the details to hand so going on my memory, but will be at a show around 27th Nov. Then back for the headphone show around the 12 Dec. At the moment I don't know about CanJam Singapore, it clashes with our half term school holidays.
  
 Rob


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Rob
 Do the late tweaks on DAVE have any affect on the final sound in your opinion or are they just connection/hardware tweaks?
  
 To other posters here:
 Lets hope we get some impressions on sound from other audiophiles attending todays event in San Francisco.


----------



## audiobill

daveredref-iii said:


> To other posters here:
> Lets hope we get some impressions on sound from other audiophiles attending today's event in San Francisco.


 
  
 +1 !!!


----------



## Rob Watts

daveredref-iii said:


> Rob
> Do the late tweaks on DAVE have any affect on the final sound in your opinion or are they just connection/hardware tweaks?
> 
> To other posters here:
> Lets hope we get some impressions on sound from other audiophiles attending todays event in San Francisco.


 
 In short yes, more depth and better detail resolution. It was a case of updating the internal noise shapers with the knowledge gained from the main OP noise shapers.
  
 But much of the work has been not audio related at all - displays, control, dual data mode, getting the dual programme mode to function.
  
 Rob


----------



## Sonic77

daveredref-iii said:


> Rob
> Do the late tweaks on DAVE have any affect on the final sound in your opinion or are they just connection/hardware tweaks?
> 
> To other posters here:
> Lets hope we get some impressions on sound from other audiophiles attending todays event in San Francisco.


 
  


audiobill said:


> +1 !!!


 

 +2 !!!


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> daveredref-iii said:
> 
> 
> > Rob
> ...


 
  
 So I expect wonders from DAVE – a new sonic benchmark for the next decade. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Or shouldn't I?)


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> In short yes, more depth and better detail resolution. It was a case of updating the internal noise shapers with the knowledge gained from the main OP noise shapers.
> 
> But much of the work has been not audio related at all - displays, control, dual data mode, getting the dual programme mode to function.
> 
> Rob




So the final Signal / noise and DR range have Increased even further now or? 

What is the final measured values Rob?


----------



## audiobill

Still no reports on DAVE from the San Francisco event?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Maybe someone will give some feedback from the HiFi News - Windsor demo room today


----------



## Beolab

Very strange??


----------



## Sonic77

Weird, no word on this device, is it some sort of secret?


----------



## Hiyono

They are all speechless after hearing it. I am planning to stop by the Los Angeles one this afternoon.


----------



## Sonic77

hiyono said:


> They are all speechless after hearing it. I am planning to stop by the Los Angeles one this afternoon.


 
 Where in LA?


----------



## Hiyono

Hi sorry, I'm only visiting la. So no Internet when I was out. Here's the late address.

Los Angeles, CA - October 24, 2015

Brooks Berdan Ltd. - High Performance Event
Saturday October 24, 2015, 3pm to 7pm
110 West Olive Avenue, Monrovia, CA
Tel: 626-359-9131

I'm out with my friends. I'll post some pictures later


----------



## Beolab

hiyono said:


> Hi sorry, I'm only visiting la. So no Internet when I was out. Here's the late address.
> 
> Los Angeles, CA - October 24, 2015
> 
> ...




Whe don't need more pictures, whe need impressions on the sound


----------



## Hiyono

I got to try the Dave and the Mojo today. I liked the Mojo. It sounded more full and engaging then my AK120 with my UEs.

The Dave is a work of art. Its beautiful to see in person. I got to try it with my Audeze lcd3f with a silver double helix cable. But sadly not with my own music. They didn't have an optical cable for my AK120 and the iPhone apple camera connection kit doesn't work with the Dave. It says not enough power.

The center button works by turning it for volume or you can push it down to mute. If you plug a headphone in, it will cut the sound to the outputs and play only through the headphone out. Up and down scrolls through the menus while left and right change them. 

WTA filter <> DSD filter
Phase Neg <> Phase Pos
HF Fil Off <> HF Fil On
Crossfeed 0 <> 1 <>2 <> 3

The USB 44.1khz part of the screen changes colors depending on the input. When you turn the volume higher the -db part changes and color changes to red, blue etc.
The Dave did heat up. It was only warm to touch and didn't get hot. There also a small sensor on top of the screen that turns off the screen if theres no movement after like a min.


The Sound

Most the songs I didn't know. But Dave sounded really good to me on my LCD3f. It sounded very engaging and detailed. The noise floor is 0. I can turn the volume down and not hear noise. The soundstage is pretty wide but guess harder to tell on LCD3 since only goes so wide. It was harder for me since I didn't know any of the songs, but everything sounded great. I heard every instrument clearly and could easily tell the differences. Even on the LCD3 they are clear and not blurry. I tested only about 3 tracks. I didn't want to hog the device since they were planning to play the Dave with the chord setup and speakers for other people and I had another event to go to afterwards with friends. Sorry if this isn't much help.

The full setup with speakers sounded great. Wish I had such a setup.


----------



## smial1966

Thanks Hiyono, nice photo's. Did you get a chance to have a listen? 
  
 Quote:


hiyono said:


> Temp


----------



## Hiyono

smial1966 said:


>


 

 Yes I did. Sorry if it isn't as detailed.  I have a harder time telling differences with songs I am not familiar with.


----------



## smial1966

Thanks for your thoughts as every contribution is useful in building a sonic `picture' of DAVE. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Quote:


hiyono said:


> Yes I did. Sorry if it isn't as detailed.  I have a harder time telling differences with songs I am not familiar with.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Whilst we wait for definitive reviews of DAVE I notice that Jon Iverson of Stereophile released a review of the HUGO TT this week. After extensive time with the TT and comparing it with 4 other well respected DACs he concluded: 
  
 "Though I didn't have them on hand for a face-to-face, I'd put the Hugo TT in the same class as MSB Technology's Analog DAC ($6995) or the Antelope Zodiac Platinum, both of which I've heard at length in the same system."
  
  
  
 This bodes well for the DAVE DAC I think.
  
 http://www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-hugo-tt-da-headphone-amplifier#WxfgmUqARRiEZsYq.97


----------



## Mavwong

Great to hear that Rob.
  
 Is that ISS (International Sound and Sight Ex) on Nov 27 to 29?
 http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=207563.0
  
 Will you bring Dave there?
  
 Mav
  
 Quote:


rob watts said:


> Yes actually I am pretty busy in Singapore - I don't have the details to hand so going on my memory, but will be at a show around 27th Nov. Then back for the headphone show around the 12 Dec. At the moment I don't know about CanJam Singapore, it clashes with our half term school holidays.
> 
> Rob


----------



## Beolab

hiyono said:


> I got to try the Dave and the Mojo today. I liked the Mojo. It sounded more full and engaging then my AK120 with my UEs.
> 
> The Dave is a work of art. Its beautiful to see in person. I got to try it with my Audeze lcd3f with a silver double helix cable. But sadly not with my own music. They didn't have an optical cable for my AK120 and the iPhone apple camera connection kit doesn't work with the Dave. It says not enough power.
> 
> ...




And if you for just fun can describe the diffrence to Mojo vs DAVE on your LCD 3f would be very intresting. 

Was it a huge clarity / space / bass definition in difference?


----------



## lovethatsound

daveredref-iii said:


> Whilst we wait for definitive reviews of DAVE I notice that Jon Iverson of Stereophile released a review of the HUGO TT this week. After extensive time with the TT and comparing it with 4 other well respected DACs he concluded:
> 
> "Though I didn't have them on hand for a face-to-face, I'd put the Hugo TT in the same class as MSB Technology's [COLOR=000000]Analog DAC[/COLOR] ($6995) or the Antelope Zodiac Platinum, both of which I've heard at length in the same system."
> 
> ...


Sometimes i get a bit bemused by some of these people that review hifi.If he thinks that about the Hugo tt,then what about the QBD 76?It sounds alot better than a Hugo tt.The question people should be asking is,will Dave sound alot better than the QBD 76,and if so,by what margin?Can Dave sound better than the blu transport in daul data mode with the QBD 76?


----------



## JaZZ

lovethatsound said:


> Sometimes i get a bit bemused by some of these people that review hifi.If he thinks that about the Hugo tt,then what about* the QBD 76?It sounds alot better than a Hugo tt.*The question people should be asking is,will Dave sound alot better than the QBD 76,and if so,by what margin?Can Dave sound better than the blu transport in daul data mode with the QBD 76?


 
  
 The truth is, there's no universal truth about sound quality. Sonic ideals vary to a large degree – and then there's component synergy... Even Rob Watts doesn't share your preference. I'm surprised that there's still people who believe their preference be universally valid.


----------



## Mython

jazz said:


> I'm surprised that there's still people who believe their preference be universally valid.


 
  
  
 My universe is preferentially valid; does that count?


----------



## JaZZ

mython said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > I'm surprised that there's still people who believe their preference be universally valid.
> ...


 
  
 Yes, no problem! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But how do you know there's only one? (Multiverse hypothesis...)


----------



## Mython

jazz said:


> mython said:
> 
> 
> > jazz said:
> ...


 
  
  
 Ah, but I didn't _say_ there is only one (though there _might_ be only one).
  
  
 In either case, whatever universe 'I' am 'experiencing' is precisely as I consciously+subconsciously prefer it to be, and is therefore 'valid' as, and in, my 'experience' of existing within it.
  
 That does not mean that the same cannot also be true in alternative parallel universes, if the individuated experience of 'I - ness' also exists in those, too.
  
 In seriousness, I think we both know that there is just no way either of us can possibly 'know'  '_THE Answer' _to any of this, and even if we could, the outrageous limitations of semantics would be unable to convey it, anyway! LOL
  
  
 My guess is that there may turn out to be many 'individuals' who enjoy DAVE and consider it to be their _preference_ in DACs, within their experiential universes, however many of those there might be.
  
 PS: my head hurts !


----------



## Sonic77

It's subjective to whatever you prefer, like a beauty contest.
 Also to whatever you can afford


----------



## lovethatsound

jazz said:


> The truth is, there's no universal truth about sound quality. Sonic ideals vary to a large degree – and then there's component synergy... Even Rob Watts doesn't share your preference. I'm surprised that there's still people who believe their preference be universally valid.


I'm pretty sure Rob watts has never said that is preference is the Hugo tt over the QBD 76.maybe Rob watts would like to answer this question.


----------



## JaZZ

lovethatsound said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > The truth is, there's no universal truth about sound quality. Sonic ideals vary to a large degree – and then there's component synergy... Even Rob Watts doesn't share your preference. I'm surprised that there's still people who believe their preference be universally valid.
> ...


 
  
 I believe to remember that he considered the Hugo to be the best current Chord DAC (that was before the TT was out).
  
 However, that's not the point.


----------



## JaZZ

mython said:


> PS: my head hurts !


 
  
 Sorry, that wasn't my intention! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 On the other hand, there might be an infinite number of Mython universes with deviating preferences, who knows!
  
 But actually I'm sure DAVE will be the best Chord DAC. At least to the overwhelming majority of auditioners in all kinds of universes in which it's going to be produced.


----------



## Beolab

Not a single guy who can give us a small review ? Must be a high number of people who have heard it and can compare it to their own dac at home, because Chord don't seem to demonstrate it vs an existing DAC, and thats a weakness in my opinion if it the DAVE are truly that good they do not have anything be afraid off.


----------



## OK-Guy

beolab said:


> Not a single guy who can give us a small review ? Must be a high number of people who have heard it and can compare it to their own dac at home, because Chord don't seem to demonstrate it vs an existing DAC, and thats a weakness in my opinion if it the DAVE are truly that good they do not have anything be afraid off.


 
  
 c'mon give Chord a break... as Rob iterated he took the finished Dave to LA for a 'first time' unveiling... I daresay some reviews will soon start filtering through in the near future, it may not be the answer you want but it's the best I can do until I'm updated on a release-date.


----------



## lovethatsound

jazz said:


> I believe to remember that he considered the Hugo to be the best current Chord DAC (that was before the TT was out).
> 
> However, that's not the point.


No 1 from chord including Rob watts have ever said that the Hugo sounded better than the QBD 76,In fact i remember when people were asking that very question,and John franks said the QBD 76 was still CHORDS best dac.Read the QBD 76 thread on here before making statements like that,or better still,listen to a QBD 76.thats the point.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Ok-guy
Do you know why the Dave cradle has grown longer legs for the HiFi News outing?

Not sure I like that


----------



## smial1966

I'd assumed that the DAVE cradle was an integral part of the design and included in the £8,000 price, but no, it's a £1,500 accessory instead!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Quote:


daveredref-iii said:


> Ok-guy
> Do you know why the Dave cradle has grown longer legs for the HiFi News outing?
> 
> Not sure I like that


----------



## Samuel Snoopy

Anyone could teach me what is pulse array technology? How is it related or compared to R2R and Sigma Delta?


----------



## Hiyono

Found this: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/hq-player-20293/index148.html


A bit off-topic, but I had a chance to listen to Chord's new Dave DAC at a launch event last week (they also launched Mojo, essentially the Hugo electronics in a package the size of a pack of cards). There was also a short presentation by Rob Watt, the independent designer Chord use for their digital devices. Dave is using a 28nm Xilinx FPHA that gives RW 166 DSP cores with which to do interpolation, filtering, etc. Alas, I don't have any copies of the slides, but I do remember that 17th order noise shaping was used and there was a very interesting configuration on the output amp that I hadn't seen before. RW is in the "it's most important to get the transient timing right", also following the path other UK manufacturers hold to which is that the ear can discern timing differences equivalent to 250khz sampling rates, and it's this that's important, more so than frequency range. He has also produced a device (approx $13,000 BTW) that has some of the lowest noise figures I've ever seen, with a basic device noise floor down at -150 db and an extremely clean-looking -127db A weighted result with a 1 kHz signal at 2.5 v output. RW was adamant that removing music modulations appearing in the sound floor is crucial as it's this that greatly contributes to opening up a 3D level of imaging. RW is also working on an A to D box for Chord that runs at 768khz and so Dave also offers that sampling rate too, the hope being that, a bit like MQA, there's the chance of really pulling together the entire recording-to-reproduction chain, offering the listener a chance to hear what the performer (or recording engineer, at least!) really wanted to have conveyed.

Sound? The most impressive thing was a) sound staging, b) detail retrieval, and c) image depth. On every recording (even the bad ones), you could hear deep into the acoustic space it was recorded in, be it live or studio. Instruments set back on a stage in, say, a classical concert, really were set back there! The system also extracted detail I'd previously missed in tracks that I thought I knew extremely well, and did so with 44.1k RBCD.

I've heard quite a few very high end systems over the years (and this was paired by Chord amps and Estelon speakers, call it $100k total) but have never heard a sound stage quite like it. Now, this was one incredibly revealing system, perhaps more than was comfortable at times. However, I would say that I've never really gelled with the big Chord amps and would love to hear the same set up but with something different in the middle. The Estelon XAs are neutral and fast, but the amps just seem to squeeze the color out of some tracks, which for me is a bit too much of a trade off in return for huge reserves of power.


----------



## OK-Guy

daveredref-iii said:


> Ok-guy
> Do you know why the Dave cradle has grown longer legs for the HiFi News outing?
> 
> Not sure I like that


 
  
 I'll be speaking to The Pump in the next hour or so and I'll ask & report back
  
  


> I'd assumed that the DAVE cradle was an integral part of the design and included in the £8,000 price, but no, it's a £1,500 accessory instead!


 
  
 Chord have never included the price of stands with any of their products, so not really a shocker to those familiar with the Brand... also, there's a couple of different stand options available if memory serves me right, hth...


----------



## Hubert H

hiyono said:


> ....However, I would say that I've never really gelled with the big Chord amps and would love to hear the same set up but with something different in the middle.


 
  
 I've had Chord amps for over 15 years and I agree with you, the larger amps (SPM14000) do seem to rob the music of something, hard to pin down what is missing. It is apparent that the noise floor with the large amps is very low though so it may just be that we are unused to uncoloured amplification.
  
 I am quite excited by Dave, I currently have the Chord Indigo with HDSD upgrade, better than the QBD76  as it has the analogue volume control from the CPA5000 pre-amp. I bought it and sold the QBD76/CPA4000 saving a box and improving the sound. And it has a headphone out...
  
 H.


----------



## JaZZ

lovethatsound said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > I believe to remember that he considered the Hugo to be the best current Chord DAC (that was before the TT was out).
> ...


 
  
 Even if I had auditioned the QBD 76 and liked it better, I would never state it _be_ better. That's the thing you don't seem to understand: There are no absolutes in music reproduction. Different people have different sonic ideals and preferences. «Better» is purely subjective.
  
 You may know that John Franks isn't Rob Watts – except maybe in some alternative universes we don't have to take into account here.
  
 Here are some hints that Rob prefers the Hugo to the QBD 76:   link   link   link


----------



## OK-Guy

daveredref-iii said:


> Ok-guy
> Do you know why the Dave cradle has grown longer legs for the HiFi News outing?
> 
> Not sure I like that


 
  
 the cradle/stand will come in three different heights to suit individual requirements... the way I see it, stand alone in cradle, stand for Choral range and one for full-sized systems, hence different heights (I'll confirm usages when JF is back next week), hth...


----------



## lovethatsound

jazz said:


> Even if I had auditioned the QBD 76 and liked it better, I would never state it _be_ better. That's the thing you don't seem to understand: There are no absolutes in music reproduction. Different people have different sonic ideals and preferences. «Better» is purely subjective.
> 
> You may know that John Franks isn't Rob Watts – except maybe in some alternative universes we don't have to take into account here.
> 
> Here are some hints that Rob prefers the Hugo to the QBD 76:   link   link   link


Have a look at What Hifis best dacs and remember jaZz the truth is out there.


----------



## rkt31

read the stereophile review of Hugo TT. if someone Google darko dac index there too Hugo TT is in the top league. no wonder before TT smaller Hugo was in the darko dac index top league. it means TT , Hugo and now mojo essentially share same implementation but with different connectivity options considering the use. mojo at such a good price is shure to give other brands some tough time and food for thought to think on the different line than they are currently following. good time ahead for Audiophiles, stereophile and head hi fi'rs. now come to Dave. may be many might prefer different presentation in extreme high end category but one thing is sure that Dave will be as close as possible to the live performance.


----------



## lovethatsound

rkt31 said:


> read the stereophile review of Hugo TT. if someone Google darko dac index there too Hugo TT is in the top league. no wonder before TT smaller Hugo was in the darko dac index top league. it means TT , Hugo and now mojo essentially share same implementation but with different connectivity options considering the use. mojo at such a good price is shure to give other brands some tough time and food for thought to think on the different line than they are currently following. good time ahead for Audiophiles, stereophile and head hi fi'rs. now come to Dave. may be many might prefer different presentation in extreme high end category but one thing is sure that Dave will be as close as possible to the live performance.


No 1s saying the Hugo tt or the Hugo don't sound great,and by the way i own a Hugo it was my 1st Chord Dac,but the QBD 76 is in a different league,and that's why i brought one.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I think the obvious market for DAVE will be the classical music genre. I am not in that camp particularly but I think it is already clear that Rob Watts has opened a new door on what can be achieved in audio imaging depth and I suspect will change the whole industry in this respect over time. Because orchestrations are mic'd at distance, DAVE would seem an obvious choice for audiophiles who love classical music. I suspect this was in Rob's mind when designing the superior DSD filter as this is the one genre where DSD has established itself.
  
 Can you imagine hearing that level of broad imaging for orchestrations and not falling in love with the realism? For a while I would expect Chord to have a captive market in that space. Classical music will be responsible for the sale of many Dave DACs imo.
  
 It will be a harder sell in 'close mic'd genres' of course but that will come down to an assessment of the pure musical delivery I think and we have yet to hear a professional review of those capabilities.
  
 Good luck to Chord and Rob Watts. I have to admire them.


----------



## JaZZ

lovethatsound said:


> Have a look at What Hifis best dacs and remember jaZz the truth is out there.


 
  
 You don't get it... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There's no truth.
  
 However, I'm sure DAVE is a serious candidate for No.1 in different review charts. That doesn't mean it will be the best for everyone.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I agree with you Jazz. We all have biases. I favour hearing the vocalist/acoustic guitar/piano in the room and I set my speakers up accordingly. Good imaging and weight can only provide that palpability. A friend of mine likes electrostatics and is 'detail' orientated. He doesn't care too much for 3D imaging or believability. The speed and clarity of electrostatics is undeniable but it doesn't sound 'real' to me. Each to their own.


----------



## Hubert H

I must say that I don't believe that there are no absolutes in music reproduction, there is a reconstruction of the recorded signal that is correct, if there are 2 versions, one or both are not correct. Whether that is possible or how close it can be is another question.
  
 At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what the encoding medium is as long as it allows a faithful reconstruction of the original sound, warts and all. With the most accurate reproduction, one can always flavour to taste be it with valves, EQ or speakers.
  
 H.


----------



## JaZZ

daveredref-iii said:


> I agree with you Jazz. We all have biases. I favour hearing the vocalist/acoustic guitar/piano in the room and I set my speakers up accordingly. Good imaging and weight can only provide that palpability. A friend of mine likes electrostatics and is 'detail' orientated. He doesn't care too much for 3D imaging or believability. The speed and clarity of electrostatics is undeniable but it doesn't sound 'real' to me. Each to their own.


 
  
 I'm with you – as much as I like my two electrostats for their clarity, I favor my dynamic headphones (HD 800 and HE1000) for their higher realism (as I hear it).
  


hubert h said:


> I must say that I don't believe that there are no absolutes in music reproduction, there is a reconstruction of the recorded signal that is correct, if there are 2 versions, one or both are not correct. Whether that is possible or how close it can be is another question.
> 
> At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what the encoding medium is as long as it allows a faithful reconstruction of the original sound, warts and all. With the most accurate reproduction, one can always flavour to taste be it with valves, EQ or speakers.


 
  
 Yes, measuring data would be a welcome tool for realizing which component is most accurate. But those from DACs and amps can't be used for that purpose. The perceived sonic differences simply aren't reflected in them. Add to this component synergy which makes it possible that two less accurate components may sound more accurate than two more accurate components.


----------



## smial1966

Right, I now understand that the cradle is an accessory, but £1,500. REALLY?!? £1,500 for effectively a small metal stand. Or does this cradle do something to enhance DAVE's performance that's not patently obvious? Whilst I admire Chord for pushing the digital boundaries and have a DAVE on pre-order, I do think that charging £1,500 for a basic cradle/stand is blatant profiteering. 

Chord have never included the price of stands with any of their products, so not really a shocker to those familiar with the Brand... also, there's a couple of different stand options available if memory serves me right, hth... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



[/quote]


----------



## Hubert H

jazz said:


> Add to this component synergy which makes it possible that two less accurate components may sound more accurate than two more accurate components.


 
  
 I think that's a long shot Jazz and unlikely. The source needs to be the most accurate and move on from there. Granted, pushing a perfect source through an amplifier made with rusty barbed wire and variable components will sound worse than 2 less accuarate components but that's nothing to do with system synergy, just a bad component in the chain.
  
 Besides, I'm idealizing, although the point that two different sounds can be the same as the original can not be the case, one true reconstruction, no?
  
 H.


----------



## JaZZ

hubert h said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Add to this component synergy which makes it possible that two less accurate components may sound more accurate than two more accurate components.
> ...


 
  
 A reconstruction with a reall-world electronics component is just an approach to accuracy and never perfect. That's why two different sounding components may be equally accurate, be it that one person rates them that way or two persons rate them contrary in terms of accuracy.
  
 Synergy is an important component in real-world music reproduction. The different characteristics of the notorious imperfections of real-world electronics may indeed lead to the above quoted scenario. Your approach does suffer from idealizing. And my scerario suffers from the lack of comparable data, because it's theoretical – since it's virtually impossible to attribute measuring data to perceived sonic characteristics (at least with passably accurate gear). The most descriptive case would be the combination of a DAC with a treble boost and an amp with a treble roll-off, compared to a DAC and an amp with just slight treble roll-offs each.


----------



## Hubert H

Yes, but my point is that the first part of that chain must be as accurate as possible, as you quite often say, you can't recover what isn't there or improve the source by adding other components. So, the above is a flat DAC output and an amp with a slight treble roll-off vs a DAC that adds treble and an amp that removes it. I'll have the former every time.
  
 It'd be nice for the CERN engineers to build an amplifier and DAC, with Rob's sauce, and their superconducting materials though.
  
 Do bear in mind though Jazz, I think that your posts are among the few that are always worth reading 
  
 H.


----------



## Sonic77

smial1966 said:


> Right, I now understand that the cradle is an accessory, but £1,500. REALLY?!? £1,500 for effectively a small metal stand. *Or does this cradle do something to enhance DAVE's performance that's not patently obvious? Whilst I admire Chord for pushing the digital boundaries and have a DAVE on pre-order, I do think that charging £1,500 for a basic cradle/stand is blatant profiteering.*
> 
> Chord have never included the price of stands with any of their products, so not really a shocker to those familiar with the Brand... also, there's a couple of different stand options available if memory serves me right, hth...


[/quote]

 SSShhhhhhhh, what you trying to do? Ruin the little metal table business?


----------



## Beolab

daveredref-iii said:


> I think the obvious market for DAVE will be the classical music genre. I am not in that camp particularly but I think it is already clear that Rob Watts has opened a new door on what can be achieved in audio imaging depth and I suspect will change the whole industry in this respect over time. Because orchestrations are mic'd at distance, DAVE would seem an obvious choice for audiophiles who love classical music. I suspect this was in Rob's mind when designing the superior DSD filter as this is the one genre where DSD has established itself.
> 
> Can you imagine hearing that level of broad imaging for orchestrations and not falling in love with the realism? For a while I would expect Chord to have a captive market in that space. Classical music will be responsible for the sale of many Dave DACs imo.
> 
> ...




Have you heard the DAVE yet, or is this just assumptions based on what you have read and on Rob Watts statements that it is more suitable for classical music ?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Beolab
 No I haven't had that pleasure yet but it doesn't take too much imagination to see who would see the benefits of such a development. Pretty much everyone who has commented on the product and the designer also seem to put deep accurate soundstage at the forefront of their observations. Perhaps you do not accept that but I think it is not unreasonable to take that at face value. If I listen to an acoustic artist the imaging is not hamstrung by modern dacs but if I listen to an orchestra or large pipe organ it is. That differentiation is likely to have commercial value imo.


----------



## rkt31

has the user manual of dave been released ?


----------



## audiobill

On Chord's site they have the driver available for download on the DAVE product page, but no manual yet.


----------



## Mython

lovethatsound said:


> Have a look at What Hifis best dacs and remember jaZz the truth is out there.


 
  
  
 Just for those who haven't read it yet...
  
  
 http://www.whathifi.com/news/chord-electronics-dominates-best-dacs-2015
  
  
 Who knows where DAVE will sit, in the pecking order, of DACs in the sub-£10,000 category, when it's released...


----------



## PANURUS

```
[left] Yesterday I went to get my Mojo in Gent (Belgium)[/left]
```
  
 I had got the following information from a passionnate sailor :
   


```
[left] In late November, the dave will be on display for a week.[/left]
```
 It will be possible to check some new cables.
  
 Will it be easy to listen the differences with the mojo in my pocket?
  
 A lot of headphones are in shop like Stax, Grado PS1000 and Sennheizer HD800.
  
 So I will be there.


----------



## bmichels

panurus said:


> ```
> [left] Yesterday I went to get my Mojo in Gent (Belgium)[/left]
> ```
> 
> ...


 
  
 Where and what is this place in GENT where you got your "Mojo" ?  ( I am in Brugge, so I may also want to go there to have a listening at the DAVE)


----------



## rkt31

any listening impressions of dave ? can anybody tell what will be the expected price in India ?


----------



## PANURUS

Here is the place.
  
 http://widescreenaudio.be/product/chord-mojo/


----------



## rkt31

the link is for mojo not for Dave. can't understand why the reviews or listening impressions of dave are so elusive, eagerly waiting for detailed review !


----------



## Mython

rkt31 said:


> the link is for mojo not for Dave. can't understand why the reviews or listening impressions of dave are so elusive, eagerly waiting for detailed review !


 
  
 Maybe it casts a spell upon everyone who hears it


----------



## rkt31

one query about Dave ! can both xlr and rca output be used at the same time like one for feeding power amp other for a sub ?


----------



## rkt31

what will be the output impedances of rca, xlr and headphone out ?


----------



## bmichels

Big question :  Will the DAVE be able to take advantage of the *"dual data output" of the CHORD BLU Transport*, like the QBD76 does ?


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

bmichels said:


> Big question :  Will the DAVE be able to take advantage of the *"dual data output" of the CHORD BLU Transport*, like the QBD76 does ?


 

 Believe DAVE will have dual coax BNC inputs........If this is the case then yes


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

bmichels said:


> Big question :  Will the DAVE be able to take advantage of the *"dual data output" of the CHORD BLU Transport*, like the QBD76 does ?


 

 Bigger question is;    Will DAVE sound better than QBD76 with dual inputs from Blu !      I'm guessing it won't as don't think this part of DAVE is an upgrade to the QBD76.    
  
 I'm sure Rob can shed some light on this !


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes it will do dual data mode.
  
 Output impedance is the PCB tracking to the OP, I have not measured it yet.
  
 Yes you can use phono and XLR together, but gain is fixed.
  
 Rob


----------



## bmichels

rob watts said:


> Yes it will do dual data mode.
> 
> Output impedance is the PCB tracking to the OP, I have not measured it yet.
> ack....
> ...


 
  
 thanks Rob for answering
  
 now we are waiting for user's listening feedback....  (had DAVE been "listenable" already at some HiFi shows ?)


----------



## Beolab

bonesy jonesy said:


> Bigger question is;    Will DAVE sound better than QBD76 with dual inputs from Blu !      I'm guessing it won't as don't think this part of DAVE is an upgrade to the QBD76.
> 
> I'm sure Rob can shed some light on this !




Most likely it will take adatage of the better noise shaper and WTA filtering even here, so i dont see why it wouldn't sound better than QBD76 + Blu. 

So the answer is Yes it will siund better.. 

Im i right @Rob Watts 
?


----------



## Rob Watts

Dave is in a different league to the QBD76. Its like comparing an iphone 6 to a phone from 10 years ago - that's how much things have moved on!
  
 Rob


----------



## lovethatsound

rob watts said:


> Dave is in a different league to the QBD76. Its like comparing an iphone 6 to a phone from 10 years ago - that's how much things have moved on!
> 
> Rob


But no daul AES Rob for your blu transport,which sounds better than coaxial,I've got 2 admit I'm abit disappointed with Chord about this,as really i think it should have daul AES.Still I'll demo dave and make up my own mind about the sound.


----------



## Rob Watts

daveredref-iii said:


> I think the obvious market for DAVE will be the classical music genre. I am not in that camp particularly but I think it is already clear that Rob Watts has opened a new door on what can be achieved in audio imaging depth and I suspect will change the whole industry in this respect over time. Because orchestrations are mic'd at distance, DAVE would seem an obvious choice for audiophiles who love classical music. I suspect this was in Rob's mind when designing the superior DSD filter as this is the one genre where DSD has established itself.
> 
> Can you imagine hearing that level of broad imaging for orchestrations and not falling in love with the realism? For a while I would expect Chord to have a captive market in that space. Classical music will be responsible for the sale of many Dave DACs imo.
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you for your kind comments.
  
 The perception of depth is a weird phenomena and something we take for granted. I am on holiday in Catalan, Spain and yesterday visited the monastery at Montserrat. We went for a walk, and was about a mile out viewing the monastery; the bells peeled out. The perception of depth was stunning, shut ones eyes and you can hear the bells a mile away with amazing accuracy.
  
 Then we were lucky enough to hear the choir in the basilica. I was 150 feet away, and again, shut ones eyes and the sound was 150 feet away. It was glorious.
  
 But the amazing thing is how the brain manages to compute depth from very tiny cues and get it to such accuracy and we take it entirely for granted.
  
 So far early versions of Dave has been shown at a few shows and listeners have reported back about how unusual the depth perception is with Dave. Now this is due to the DAC resolving accuracy of very small signals - for some reason any small non-linearity of small signals upsets the brains ability to determine depth. What is curious is that there seems to be no limit to how accurate the linearity needs to be; Dave's noise shapers are accurate to -350 dB and this was the performance required by depth perception. Indeed, the brain may be sensitive to even smaller levels, but 350 dB is the best I can do with current FPGA's. But if you had said 2 years ago that one would need 350 dB performance from a noise shaper to get proper depth perception I would have said you were completely mad, as this is ridiculously small levels. But I have done thousands of depth listening tests, and always came to the same conclusion - very very small errors are significant. No doubt the sound science brigade will be on my back about this; but sound science is about observation not pet theories; and the observations are saying that something very weird is going on about depth perception (something which our understanding of how the brain achieves this level of accuracy is very limited).
  
 Getting back to Dave and classical music. Sure classical music is not close miked, and so perceiving depth would be beneficial to that genre. But depth is often added in recordings by adding reverb. Also, its about small signal linearity which is useful for detail resolution as well as depth perception. But because Dave's depth perception is so much deeper than other DAC's its easy to latch onto that aspect of performance - its about four times deeper with recordings that have good depth than Hugo for example. But there is a lot more to Dave than just depth.
  
 On the design of Dave, I was at one point improving smoothness and warmth. It got richer and darker, almost to the point where it sounded too dark and smooth - transients were starting to sound soft. Now this aspect was based on solid engineering, that of improving noise floor modulation, so I knew it was more transparent for certain. But it was sounding too rich and dark. Now that's OK - nobody knows what a perfect DAC sounds like (neutral just means average really), so I was prepared to live with it. But then I discovered what Hugo's ability to resolve the timing of notes - the perception of instruments starting and stopping - came from, and once found it I could maximise it due to the size available on the FPGA.
  
 By maximising the timing aspect, I got Dave to sound much faster, tighter and leaner - the perfect remedy to something sounding too soft and smooth. Now again this performance is engineering based and is fundamentally more accurate and transparent.
  
 So what does this mean? Well against Hugo, Dave has much more depth, which you can easily perceive and you don't need to do an AB test. If you hear depth that is deeper than anything ever heard from an audio system then you know something is better. But with Dave being at the same time faster tighter and more dynamic and also richer and darker than Hugo, then you need to do an AB test to perceive that aspect. 
  
 And another point - depth is really useful for AV, a lot of depth is recorded onto films and it really makes a big difference to enjoyment having a huge sound stage.
  
 Rob


----------



## bmichels

rob watts said:


> Dave is in a different league to the QBD76. Its like comparing an iphone 6 to a phone from 10 years ago - that's how much things have moved on!
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Yes technology move forward, so... now it is the BLU that need to be upgraded !  Indeed, the BLU is very old compared to the DAVE !


----------



## lovethatsound

bmichels said:


> Yes technology move forward, so... now it is the BLU that need to be upgraded !  Indeed, the BLU is very old compared to the DAVE !


I totally agree with you ,that's why I'm surprised dave hasn't got a daul AES output and a balanced headphone output.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks for the reply Rob. Your last point about films had not occurred to me and I am sure it would add to greater realism.
  
 I will be listening out for the depth perception in recordings of classical music against those of other music genres. Modern reverbs are good but I doubt they will fool the magnifying-glass capabilities of something like DAVE much in the same way that modern makeup artists are often compromised by the clarity of HDTV. 64 bit precision mixes and mastering has made a big improvement on the placing of images in a mix but the sense of depth is likely still to be superior with classical recordings simply because it is 'real' ambience as opposed to 'designed' ambience. Modern reverbs including convolution reverbs are much improved but are still not the real deal when judging depth imo. 
  
 I am interested in Chord's move into A/D converters also Rob. I have used Prism converters for personal use and they are still ubiquitous in top studios around the world. They are highly regarded. However, I think generally A/D conversion is still in the dark ages. It is not particularly evident when mastering a whole mix from an analogue tape but (as I have mentioned before) set up a decent condenser mic and feed it into a top converter at 88khz 24 bits, have a vocalist sing a phrase for 'take one' and then sing exactly the same phrase and pitch for 'take two'. Now play back the takes simultaneously. The sound of the two recordings will not sit well together. It will sound dry, grainy, unnatural, even metallic in some cases. Double-tracking is the best way that I know to demonstrate how badly modern converters still handle the process of analogue to digital and back. A double-tracked lead vocal on an analogue tape by contrast is a useful process and a trick used by producers for decades to gain great power and presence for the lead vocal but in the digital domain, unless hidden by effects it is hideous imo. If Chord can design professional converters that still sound natural under such a test then I think you are likely to be very popular among sound engineers. 
  
 PS: I would not underestimate the business potential of targeting the home studio market once you have conquered the big studios btw. It is a large market these days.


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Thank you for your kind comments.
> 
> 
> The perception of depth is a weird phenomena and something we take for granted. I am on holiday in Catalan, Spain and yesterday visited the monastery at Montserrat. We went for a walk, and was about a mile out viewing the monastery; the bells peeled out. The perception of depth was stunning, shut ones eyes and you can hear the bells a mile away with amazing accuracy.
> ...




This sounds very promising! 

How about harshness from the DAVE? 
 Very often very analytical / detailed DAC's sounds harsh = digital sound signature.

I feel this on the Hugo and i hope its not the same with DAVE ?


----------



## highfell

beolab said:


> This sounds very promising!
> 
> How about harshness from the DAVE?
> Very often very analytical / detailed DAC's sounds harsh = digital sound signature.
> ...




When I listened to Dave at the audio east show, I didn't detect harshness or a digital sound. The piano playing I heard was very very realistic and analogue sounding


----------



## Hiyono

@Robb Watts

Curious about how Dave's power supply is. Dave is like the size of some other dac's linear power supply. What is Dave doing to deliver clean power? Does it have a small battery or caps like the Hugo tt? Does need to a ps audio regen or other filters to perform better?


----------



## JaZZ

_Rob,_ it's always a pleasure to read your ideas and experiences that you kindly share with us. More exciting than many crime thrillers. Even bordering on SciFi stories!


----------



## Beolab

highfell said:


> When I listened to Dave at the audio east show, I didn't detect harshness or a digital sound. The piano playing I heard was very very realistic and analogue sounding




My MSB Analog play all music with a efortless sound without any harshness, and that is something i rank very high in a dac. 

The Hugo got a very realistic sound but do not have the fine smooth rich musicality soundstage and precision dept like the Analog, and sounds more harsh, and i hope DAVE do not have more of does not so nice characteristics  

MSB Analog= Musical and easy to listen to! 
Chord Hugo= Are like a instrument for the laboratory, and are not as musically smooth.. 


Otherwise i keep the Analog .. 

Would be a good think to send out DAVE to some respected reviewers pretty soon, to hype and spread the word of this hopfully extremely great product.


----------



## Jiffi32

jazz said:


> _Rob,_ it's always a pleasure to read your ideas and experiences that you kindly share with us. More exciting than many crime thrillers. Even bordering on SciFi stories!


 

 +1​


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Beolab
I am surprised you use the word 'musical' to describe the MSB tbh, though I respect the product. I am surprised because I have yet to read a review in which musicality (or even emotion) is the outstanding attribute of any DSD upsampling unit, be it from DCS, MSB, PS Audio or other. I believe this is why Esoteric simply refused to upsample with DSD and also why Naim wouldn't go near DSD. It seems to me to be the elephant in the room for every reviewer too. How do they give these units a 100% thumbs up? = They avoid talking about it. They rave about other aspects of the presentation.

I have to say DSD up sampling still sounds impressive to my ears and it is a seductive sound/presentation in general but it never moves me like real music. If I felt that in the past I probably would have bought DCS years ago because, like you, I like the presentation of DSD up sampling.

Chord has a more clinical sound I also agree but for me the emotion and musicality sounds/feels right. As a musician, fundamentally, that has to be the primary reason for listening to music. 

Incidentally the only DSD up sampler that I have heard which goes some way down the road to addressing this perceived weakness is Meitner. Ironically the presentation of Meitner is nearer Chord than traditional DSD up samplers (Leaner presentation.) Maybe there is something to this.


----------



## Beolab

daveredref-iii said:


> Beolab
> I am surprised you use the word 'musical' to describe the MSB tbh, though I respect the product. I am surprised because I have yet to read a review in which musicality (or even emotion) is the outstanding attribute of any DSD upsampling unit, be it from DCS, MSB, PS Audio or other. I believe this is why Esoteric simply refused to upsample with DSD and also why Naim wouldn't go near DSD. It seems to me to be the elephant in the room for every reviewer too. How do they give these units a 100% thumbs up? = They avoid talking about it. They rave about other aspects of the presentation.
> 
> I have to say DSD up sampling still sounds impressive to my ears and it is a seductive sound/presentation in general but it never moves me like real music. If I felt that in the past I probably would have bought DCS years ago because, like you, I like the presentation of DSD up sampling.
> ...




The Analog do not resample as the rest of the DAC DSD pack does, it only re-clock the signal no upsampling here. The MSB Diamond for example upsample the signal thats correct, but not the Analog.

I have it with the latest SW 1.7 and the MSB Renderer I2S witch drive eights around most of all dac's in its $12.000 price range. 

Take a listen combined with Abyss / HE-1K if you have a reseller near you.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks for the correction Beolab. Do MSB say why they changed their spec for the Analogue?

Not come across Abyss/HE-1K to date but thanks for the pointer


----------



## Kakki

Dear Rob,
  
 I really like your DACs and really love your philosophy eliminating analogue components as much as possible to keep the maximum transparency. I'm planning to purchase your Dave but there is one thing I'm really sad about.
  
 There seems to be no good power amplifier that can be the best partner with Dave.
  
 If I see the market, there are many expensive monster power-amplifiers having multi-hundreds power outputs, with a lot of analogue components inside.
  
 I guess to connect Dave to those monster power-amplifiers do not make a good sense when you are trying so hard to eliminate analogue components in the signal path in Dave.
  
 I would really want to know if there is (or will be) any good power-amplifier to match with Dave... that has minimum analogue components for the maximum transparency and also has small / enough output (10w - 25w?) for the highest quality.
  
 Would appreciate your kind advice...


----------



## rkt31

@kakki, check benchmark ahb2 amp. it is 100watt rms and the best part is that it has very low gain setting of around 9db and input sensitivity as high as 7.2v, which means it can as a low power amp too. it is touted to be one of the quietest amp wit extremely low distortion and very high s/n figures.


----------



## Rob Watts

Dave has 705/768 kHz DX digital outputs to go with my digital power amps. These are non-switching, but still retain the analogue simplicity of two resistors and 2 capacitors plus a single global feedback path. But power output will be from 20W to at least 200W. I just finished testing the DX outputs today.
  
 The first DX power amp will be available next year and will initially be 20W RMS with a 70W mono-block option.
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

daveredref-iii said:


> Thanks for the correction Beolab. Do MSB say why they changed their spec for the Analogue?
> 
> Not come across Abyss/HE-1K to date but thanks for the pointer




According to Jonathan Gullman at MSB he states that MSB Analog are their new generation DAC platform and utilise 
Re-Clocking which is more advanced and utilise the fine femto 140 master clock in the more efficient and better way than the upsampling method as their older Diamond / IV DAC are using. 

When they developed the new state of the art MSB Select DAC they did began with the Analog chassi / mainboard as a startingpoint.


----------



## Kakki

rkt31 said:


> @kakki, check benchmark ahb2 amp. it is 100watt rms and the best part is that it has very low gain setting of around 9db and input sensitivity as high as 7.2v, which means it can as a low power amp too. it is touted to be one of the quietest amp wit extremely low distortion and very high s/n figures.


 
  
 Thank you rkt31, for your information! This is an amplifier I did not know... very interesting reading rave reviews on this product. Have never seen it here in Japan.
  


rob watts said:


> Dave has 705/768 kHz DX digital outputs to go with my digital power amps. These are non-switching, but still retain the analogue simplicity of two resistors and 2 capacitors plus a single global feedback path. But power output will be from 20W to at least 200W. I just finished testing the DX outputs today.
> 
> The first DX power amp will be available next year and will initially be 20W RMS with a 70W mono-block option.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Rob, thank you for your kind reply! So the first DX power amp works with Dave only I guess? as only Dave has such digital outputs?
 Your new product information is always exciting and beyond my imagination... now I can hardly wait next year!!


----------



## Sonic77

So now only certain amps will work well the the Dave dac and others will not?


----------



## Mython

sonic77 said:


> So now only certain amps will work well the the Dave dac and others will not?


 
  
  
 Oh come on..
  
 That's an unreasonable leap of (il)logic
  
 Just because Rob is developing an amp to work well with the DAVE DAC does not mean, in _any_ way, shape, or form, that the DAC will not operate superbly with other amplifiers


----------



## Skampmeister

Chinese whispers at work here in real time. 

People are funny.


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Dave is in a different league to the QBD76. Its like comparing an iphone 6 to a phone from 10 years ago - that's how much things have moved on!
> 
> Rob




Hi Rob ! 

When do you think the DAVE will be ready for shipping, and can you predict any SW or HW upgrades for the first batch, like that was made to the Hugo ?


----------



## Sonic77

mython said:


> Oh come on..
> 
> That's an unreasonable leap of (il)logic
> 
> Just because Rob is developing an amp to work well with the DAVE DAC does not mean, in _any_ way, shape, or form, that the DAC will not operate superbly with other amplifiers


 

 lol


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> Hi Rob !
> 
> When do you think the DAVE will be ready for shipping, and can you predict any SW or HW upgrades for the first batch, like that was made to the Hugo ?


 

 The delay from shipping Dave is down to me I am afraid. I have not sent Chord production code yet. I have more testing and a little more code to add, but it should be ready later this week. Then there will be a lot of final testing to do too.
  
 We won't release product until its been extensively tested. This has been my most complex DAC design so an enormous effort has gone into testing and evaluation. As too hardware updates, Dave had 4 prototype batches (ten units per batch), so hardware changes are not expected. Also, on the hardware side, DAC technology for me has matured; over twenty five years of continuous DAC design means that I am now very happy about the hardware side.
  
 Rob


----------



## lovethatsound

rob watts said:


> The delay from shipping Dave is down to me I am afraid. I have not sent Chord production code yet. I have more testing and a little more code to add, but it should be ready later this week. Then there will be a lot of final testing to do too.
> 
> We won't release product until its been extensively tested. This has been my most complex DAC design so an enormous effort has gone into testing and evaluation. As too hardware updates, Dave had 4 prototype batches (ten units per batch), so hardware changes are not expected. Also, on the hardware side, DAC technology for me has matured; over twenty five years of continuous DAC design means that I am now very happy about the hardware side.
> 
> Rob


well i don't think anyone should complain about chord taking their time to get dave absolutely right for the market.And on that note Rob i really think you and chord should really think about putting daul AES on dave and a balanced headphone output on dave,doing this would please alot more people than you could imagine,and most likely increase sales of dave as a 1 box solution for headphone users and blu transport users as well,don't just make dave great make it perfect . take your time rob (chord)get it right.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

lovethatsound said:


> well i don't think anyone should complain about chord taking their time to get dave absolutely right for the market.And on that note Rob i really think you and chord should really think about putting *daul AES *on dave and *a balanced headphone output *on dave,doing this would please alot more people than you could imagine,and most likely increase sales of dave as a 1 box solution for headphone users and blu transport users as well,don't just make dave great make it perfect . take your time rob (chord)get it right.


 
 ++A  Yes definitely Dual AES / EBU input for Blu (or any other hi-end CD Transporter) and XLR balanced out for dynamic headphones with the standard "1/4 Jack out.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks for the reply Beolab


----------



## JaZZ

lovethatsound said:


> rob watts said:
> 
> 
> > The delay from shipping Dave is down to me I am afraid. I have not sent Chord production code yet. I have more testing and a little more code to add, but it should be ready later this week. Then there will be a lot of final testing to do too.
> ...


 
  
*Too late!* Moreover, a balanced headphone output would require additional electronics components in the signal path, which would destroy Chord's puristic concept without an extra amp between DAC and headphone output. Are you really willing to sacrifice that?
  
 I know that Rob is skeptical towards balanced line drives, so I'm curious what he has to say about balanced headphone drive.


----------



## Sonic77

rob watts said:


> The delay from shipping Dave is down to me I am afraid. I have not sent Chord production code yet. I have more testing and a little more code to add, but it should be ready later this week. Then there will be a lot of final testing to do too.
> 
> We won't release product until its been extensively tested. This has been my most complex DAC design so an enormous effort has gone into testing and evaluation. As too hardware updates, Dave had 4 prototype batches (ten units per batch), so hardware changes are not expected. Also, on the hardware side, DAC technology for me has matured; over twenty five years of continuous DAC design means that I am now very happy about the hardware side.
> 
> Rob



Take your time and get it right, we'll wait.


----------



## Skampmeister

Rob, are you coming back to Canberra in Australia at any point in the near future?

I want you to sign my 2Qute


----------



## Beolab

Heard from a source today that the price on the DAVE will be:
€12.269 Euro incl 25% VAT 
converted from my currency.

Hope this is not true!!?? 

@Rob Watts


----------



## Beolab

Would be nice to read some impressions from you few people who have heard the DAVE with headphones, if the sound have the neutral kind of harsh Hugo sound signature but better, or is it a totally different sound more like fluid velvet silk or whats is your thoughts? 

Then i want to know if you felt that the power from the headphone jacket was more powerful than the Hugo / TT ? 

It should be more powerful on the paper, but the question is if you felt it ?


----------



## Rob Watts

skampmeister said:


> Rob, are you coming back to Canberra in Australia at any point in the near future?
> 
> I want you to sign my 2Qute


 

 Yes but no trip planned at the moment. Some time in 2016 I guess. Will be very happy to sign it.
  
 Rob


----------



## Skampmeister

Awesome, cya then.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I am going to be testing some AES, Coax and optical cables soon. I would be interest hear some of your own experiences and preferences for these different digital protocols and perhaps particular makes of cable you currently use. Sorry off topic.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Rob
 I have noticed comments from early listeners of Dave that 'dynamics' and 'speed' of the DAC are pretty exceptional. I am interested in this aspect of the dac and just wanted to understand what is driving this improvement.
  
 Firstly I would say that I am still fundamentally tied to CD rendition these days so any dynamic improvement here would of course be welcomed. I just wondered if the digital pre-amp is a primary contributor for improved dynamics or if there is some magic been worked elsewhere in the DAC?


----------



## rkt31

any more listening impressions of dave ? availability in india ?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I had a little chuckle when when I looked at the DCS website today. They have launched the new Rossini
  
 Player/DAC in one £18k
 DAC only £15k
 Master Clock £8k? (Assuming this price as price not released yet)
  
 Firstly, the Rossini player won't play SACD discs. This is the first time since DCS adopted DSD up-sampling that SACD discs have been dropped.
  
 I wonder if they have finally perceived a weaknesses in the DSD protocol? Perhaps they have, because previously with the Vivaldi they were up-sampling everything to DSD as standard (with an option to up-sample to DXD if desired). Now they have adopted the DXD route as their standard for up-sampling (with the option to up-sample via DSD if so desired).
  
 Being an old cynic, I wouldn't be surprised if the Audiophile press now hail Rossini as the most musical and emotional DCS dac/player yet released. They would probably be right imo at least. 
  
 Lastly their master clocks use simple crystal oscillators these days. No more sales blurb about femto/atomic accuracy and such like.
  
 Is this an indicator that some big hitters in the industry may start returning to the PCM route? I hope so because anything that can improve the emotional experience of digital music has to be a good thing and to my ears PCM delivers a superior emotional experience.


----------



## rkt31

I am not a technical expert in dsd vs pcm but what about native dsd recordings which have not been subjected any kind of processing like directly recorded in studio or recorded from analog tapes ? don't these recordings are unique in a way ? some Audiophile labels like waterlily acoustics after years of following analog tape route have now started recording in stereo dsd with single stereo mics claiming to not to do any processing whatsoever. I have one CD from one such recording which is mahlar 5 by temiraknov. this CD though extremely dynamic but feels kind of grainy in extreme upper registers or kind of sub conscious level. is it something to do with the cd being made from native dsd recording ?


----------



## rkt31

I have tested same recording in 24 96 pcm and dsd64 with Hugo. the explanation given by somewhere by Rob is kind of true. dsd sounds having lesser insight or depth giving the impression of smoother presentation sometimes due to lesser low level details. while pcm gives better depth perception but slight impression of lesser sound stage width due to more depth IMHO. but these differences are of extremely low level and feeding dsd to Hugo via coaxial does not in anyway less enjoyable as compared to pcm, Hugo is so good. now waiting for Dave's impressions of pcm and dsd !


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

rkt31
 I think DSD resolution and dynamics are good. Presentation and imaging sound good to me also when done well but I gave up on DSD/SACD because it didn't move me in the same way real music moves me.


----------



## Rob Watts

daveredref-iii said:


> Rob
> I have noticed comments from early listeners of Dave that 'dynamics' and 'speed' of the DAC are pretty exceptional. I am interested in this aspect of the dac and just wanted to understand what is driving this improvement.
> 
> Firstly I would say that I am still fundamentally tied to CD rendition these days so any dynamic improvement here would of course be welcomed. I just wondered if the digital pre-amp is a primary contributor for improved dynamics or if there is some magic been worked elsewhere in the DAC?


 

 In a word - timing.
  
 The unexpected SQ benefit with Hugo was the perception of timing - I could hear the starting and stopping of notes with unusual ease - and I did not know where this performance was coming from. Anyway, with Dave I had time and a much bigger FPGA (ten times more gates) so I could find out and isolate what I had done. It turned out to be timing accuracy - now I am WTA FIR filtering to 256 FS, so that means the timing of the original analogue signal is being FIR reconstructed to 88 nS accuracy now, and this gave surprisingly large differences to SQ. Now when timing accuracy is improved, you can hear the starting and stopping of sounds with ease - and that makes it sound sharp and fast - its a bit like focus on a camera - out of focus gives a soft perspective, sharper focus brings out edges.
  
 Does this mean Dave is sharp and fast sounding? No - I had improved the warmth and smoothness dramatically. Indeed, before upgrading the timing, I was worried it was way too smooth and dark, but improving the timing has brought it back into subjective balance.
  
 But for me the most profound change has been depth perception. Dave's depth is completely unusual, and now with the appropriate recording, I am starting to hear depth that sounds more like real life. And the depth perception was down to the noise shapers on Dave.
  
 Both with timing and depth, Dave has taught me that the brain is incredibly sensitive to vanishingly small errors - indeed in some respects absolute zero error is the target.
  
 Rob


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I hope you are making a list of impressive 'depth' recordings Rob. This ability will undoubtably be a party piece for many audiophiles. 
  
 Thanks very much for the feedback. I cannot wait to hear DAVE in action tbh.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

rky31
 I am not aiming this at you btw but it puzzles me why so much focus (by those audiophiles who prefer DSD) is devoted to native DSD file conversion in our DAC's when less than 1% of all DSD recordings available are actually pure/native DSD masters in the first place.
  
 DSD is simply a dumb protocol in that all you can do with it is record. You cannot EQ it or do any post production work without transferring it to PCM. So you have to 1) covert to PCM, 2) make your PP changes to the sound in PCM and 3) convert the file back to DSD. 99% of everybody's DSD music collection has been bastardised in this way and (as Rob Watts will attest to I am sure), even 'pro converters' are still in the dark ages right now. Those conversions will not do anything to help DSD fidelity. 
  
 The current protocol for post production is DXD (PCM based). DXD is 352.8/24 (also 32bit on occasion). Why 352.8? because it is divisible by 44.1 khz. It is worth bearing in mind too that 96 and 192 khz downloads may have serious quantisation errors (If taken from a DXD master). 
  
 I think it would be helpful for the industry to simplify things and run with DXD as the only standard for digital mastering. They should drop 96 and 192 also, unless it is for film tracks. This would save costs on recording, mixing, post production, mastering, HiFi R&D, manufacturing etc. 
  
 The head of Linn asked the question last year 'Why bother with DSD? Times have moved on.' He was just stating the obvious. We no longer need DSD. It is no longer the highest resolution protocol. DXD allows post production without conversion and thus avoids DSD's obligatory loss of fidelity and DXD already has superior resolution to boot. The more I see trends like that observed in my earlier post regarding DCS the better imo.


----------



## Beolab

@Rob Watts

Matthew told me that Hugo got 5 volt output for the headphones, and DAVE will have 6 volts output! 

I like the sound from the Hugo today connected with my beloved 46Ohms / 85db JPS Labs Abyss headphones, but it is a little thin and you can not play so dynamic music on higher volume because it breake up sound , so if i order the DAVE will i be more satisfayed do you think ? 

I have discovered and tried out many amps, but the clearest sound is straight from the Hugo without any pre / power - amps in btw

What is your estimation, can it give a richer and more visceral sound?


----------



## rkt31

digital volume control of Hugo may be better than many other such volume control in other DACs /amp but still IMHO Hugo and may be Dave too should benefit with higher impedance headphones like Beyer dt800 600 ohm and Beyer t1 600 ohm.


----------



## Rob Watts

Dave is actually 6.75 V RMS at 1% THD - we quoted 6 V as I knew it would exceed that figure, and it has.
  
 I have not tried the Abyss on Dave, but Dave is a massive (in my opinion of course) change over Hugo. So I strongly recommend you give Dave a demo with your Abyss to find out.
  
 I am now very close to releasing production code now, so the wait will not be long!
  
 Rob
  


beolab said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> Matthew told me that Hugo got 5 volt output for the headphones, and DAVE will have 6 volts output!
> 
> ...


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Rob
Will you let us know when you have released the production code?

That would be most helpful


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Dave is actually 6.75 V RMS at 1% THD - we quoted 6 V as I knew it would exceed that figure, and it has.
> 
> I have not tried the Abyss on Dave, but Dave is a massive (in my opinion of course) change over Hugo. So I strongly recommend you give Dave a demo with your Abyss to find out.
> 
> ...




Thanks Rob for your fast and informative answer as always! 

If you convert 6,75 volt to Watts it is like 
3 watts or ? 

I dont think i have the possibility to try first and then place the order sadly, i have to order it first to try it out here in Sweden. 

Yes the Abyss are a magna planar type which is a little harder to drive properly, so thats why my concern, but probably it will drive it perfectly i hope.


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes will do. One thing left to do then production release!
  
 Rob


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Have to stay out of those hotel bars Rob. We need this thing released so we can make our purchases!


----------



## bmichels

I have put ALL my purchase of DAC & Headphone Amp on hold until I can test the DAVE. My TotalDAC & BHSE purchase has been stopped until I hear the DAVE.   I just hope that :
  
 - It will be able to drive direct (from it's own headphone output) my newly purchased *HE1000 to it's FULL POTENTIAL*
  
 - The DAVE will not just improve on the sound signature of my HUGO that is very detailed & precise BUT lack some musicality & saoul (IMO). I hope something really more engaging, something that make my feets tapping.  *We do not need to hear much-much more details, we need to hear ... music, saoul, feelings *


----------



## Beolab

Request

Can someone that is a PS pro convert the Silver DAVE into a Black edition DAVE so we see whats looks best ?


----------



## wisnon

http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2015/11/13/warsaw-2015-dac-ology/
  
 Small blurb.


----------



## Beolab

Question for @Rob Watts

Placed an order on a Black DAVE today!

And my question is if it will be possible or not to use a Iphone connected through CCK adapter and a UpTone Regen usb with 9 volt output, or is it impossible? 

I will most of the time use a Aralic Aries for streaming but some times i like to connect the phone also.


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes Chord have tested it with an iPhone directly and its OK.


----------



## Hiyono

Ok that's great. When I tried few weeks ago. It wouldn't work with my iPhone.


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Yes Chord have tested it with an iPhone directly and its OK.




Thats great news! 

I have heard also earlier that it did not work. 

And last but not least Rob, what about the MQA format, does DAVE support this or is it a future SW upgrade?


----------



## wisnon

MQA ia a hardware feature and so far only the Mytek Brooklyn Dac has it built in. Even the Mytek top range Manhatten does not.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Good to hear you have bitten the bullet Beolab. I made the same decision earlier this week. Mine will be silver though to match my other gear.

Wisnon
Thanks for the link. 
"The Dave was good enough to have me searching for the “lost” $75K from the MSB select DAC … at least for PCM."

When someone questions the merits of an $89k product from a highly respected brand compared to one that is priced at just a 6th the price, It makes you wonder just how good the lower product must be.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

My friend Winston heard the Dave and liked it very much , he hated my Hugo at time and feels Dave is where Hugo should have been . We all like our music as we do and all of chord products are made very well and Musical


----------



## bmichels

alrainbow said:


> My friend Winston heard the Dave and liked it very much , he hated my Hugo at time and feels Dave is where Hugo should have been . We all like our music as we do and all of chord products are made very well and Musical


 
  
  I hope that this is really the case.  I owe a HUGO that I like BUT find to analytical and do not bring me emotions.  As I said before, w*e do not need a "super HUGO" that gives much more details, we need to hear more music, saoul & feelings.*


----------



## ALRAINBOW

That is how I feel and my friend felt the DAVE was a complete change in sound 
It had more weight and more musical everything the HUGO lacks os here now. I feel the os audio ds is a fine dac too but needs a little more weight as well. What ever mr watts has done it seems it's now a more involving sound. Hopefully as more room is Nero. Completion I can find someone with a DAVE and do shootout with a few dacs


----------



## ecwl

I have recently removed my preamplifier and use my computer digital volume control for my Chord QBD76HDSD with the balanced output to the amplifier and the unbalanced output to the powered subwoofers. I wonder if Chord DAVE would simultaneously output signals to the balanced and unbalanced outputs with internal volume control so that I can just replace my QBD76HDSD with the DAVE. Also, it'll be wonderful to be able to just plug in the headphone into the DAVE at night. I presume plugging in the headphone into the headphone jack would defeat the balanced and unbalanced outputs? It's so difficult to get more information from the Canadian dealer and distributor because of the unknowns, which in turn makes it difficult to commit to a preorder, sight unseen, despite the great reputations of all Chord products.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

I doubt the headphone would turn off your other outputs but mr watts would know. Regarding using both SE and bal at the same time again not best for sound in some applications 
Unless the outputs are made to be completely separate like my msb stack is


----------



## ecwl

For me, I think all audio system setup is a compromise between price, quality and convenience. To get a preamplifier with the transparency to be true to the Chord QBD76HDSD to drive the balanced output of my amplifier and the unbalanced output for the powered subwoofer, it would take up a lot of additional space and likely be very, very costly. I wish I have the financial resources or the space for the MSB stack. Currently for late night listening, I sit in a different room to listen via my Benchmark DAC1 or I move the Benchmark DAC1 to the living room and hook it up to the rest of my system which is definitely not convenient and a sonic compromise. I'm hoping DAVE would give a significant sonic upgrade with some added convenience.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

I am sure the DAVE is an upgrade all around for you with a benchmark comparison 
I also feel
Less is more in most cases


----------



## bmichels

DAVE ?    TotalDAC D1-Dual  ?    DAVE ?    TotalDAC D1-Dual ?     DAVE ?    TotalDAC D1-Dual  ?    DAVE ?    TotalDAC D1-Dual ? ..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   we have a tough hobby !


----------



## Jiffi32

Dave!     Dave!     Dave!     Dave!     DAVE!!


----------



## wisnon

Dave seems great (excellent, even) from my limited audition, but does not displace my Lampizator Golden Gate from top spot in my books. DSD was always light years ahead of most other brands, but now with the Ladder Dac PCM, its game over for me….especially when I heard it being fed by AO win12 Server in core mode upocnverted to DSD256 and feeding Bughead Emperor playback software….reel to reel type of quality! Delicious!


----------



## Mython

beolab said:


> Request
> 
> Can someone that is a PS pro convert the Silver DAVE into a Black edition DAVE so we see whats looks best ?


 
  
  
 Respectful apologies to Rob & John for how rough this Photoshopping is, but I don't have all evening to do a masterpiece, and an approximate _was_ requested, so here goes:
  
  
  
_*All silver*__:_

*All Black*_:_


*Black DAC + Silver stand*_:_

  
*Silver DAC + Black stand*_:_

  
  
  
(_original_ photo credit:_ hifipig.com_)


----------



## bmichels

And in pink ?


----------



## Sonic77

mython said:


> Respectful apologies to Rob & John for how rough this Photoshopping is, but I don't have all evening to do a masterpiece, and an approximate _was_ requested, so here goes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wanted black, but after seeing this now I think I want the silver one. Thank you for doing that, so we can see the difference.


----------



## Jiffi32

Black looks good!
  
 Many thanks Mython


----------



## Mython

bmichels said:


> And in pink ?


 
  
                       
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  


sonic77 said:


> I wanted black, but after seeing this now I think I want the silver one.


 
  


jiffi32 said:


> Black looks good!


 
  
  
 I'd steer away from the 'mixed' colour schemes (just did those for fun 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), but I actually like both the 'all black' and the 'all silver' options. They each have a pleasant purposeful appearance, in their own ways.


----------



## Skampmeister

Id only get Silver, I hate the black 2Qute and TT, especially the black TT, makes it look every understated.


----------



## Mython

skampmeister said:


> Id only get Silver


 
  
  
 Then you're in luck!
  
 That's what they're making it in, first.


----------



## Beolab

ecwl said:


> I have recently removed my preamplifier and use my computer digital volume control for my Chord QBD76HDSD with the balanced output to the amplifier and the unbalanced output to the powered subwoofers. I wonder if Chord DAVE would simultaneously output signals to the balanced and unbalanced outputs with internal volume control so that I can just replace my QBD76HDSD with the DAVE. Also, it'll be wonderful to be able to just plug in the headphone into the DAVE at night. I presume plugging in the headphone into the headphone jack would defeat the balanced and unbalanced outputs? It's so difficult to get more information from the Canadian dealer and distributor because of the unknowns, which in turn makes it difficult to commit to a preorder, sight unseen, despite the great reputations of all Chord products.




From what Rob answered erlier in this thread if i remember correctly the DAVE will mute all other outlets if you connect a headphone in the phono output.


----------



## Sonic77

I have a question Rob Watts, when you did listening tests, did you try different types of speakers? I own Magnepan 3.7i and those are different from cone speakers, so I was wondering, did you try different speakers and did that make a difference in depth perception?
 I think my Magnepans give some serious depth to music just on their own.
 Also, is "holographic sound" the same as depth in your opinion, or are they referring to two different things?
 Thanks.


----------



## Beolab

mython said:


> Respectful apologies to Rob & John for how rough this Photoshopping is, but I don't have all evening to do a masterpiece, and an approximate _was_ requested, so here goes:
> 
> *All Black*_:_
> 
> ...


----------



## esimms86

So if your musical taste usually gravitates to popular music where recordings are made with multiple overdubs and effects with no real sense of place, how would DAVE's precise soundstage work for you? Live classical, jazz and acoustic music, sure, I get that; that's the ideal recording situation for mining gold with a DAC like DAVE. However, that's not what the majority of people are usually listening to on their home rigs. Not a criticism, just asking. Mind you, I've never heard DAVE so I'm simply curious to read about the experiences of others who have listened to Pop music played back with DAVE.

Esau


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

esimms, modern music with overdubs still has image placement (provided the phase is intact.) the images are just more localised than say an orchestral recording. Dave is unlikely to project a Hammond organ or lead guitar too far away but that is unlikely to be the intention of the producer. I would expect Dave to reproduce exactly what is in the recording but I would not expect Dave to falsely image more closely a recording that has been recorded at distance (as other dacs currently do) based upon Rob Watts explanation of its character. It's all about the truth I would say.

Judging by comments of other listeners, if there is a sound booth ambience in the vocal recording you will likely hear it. If an ambient microphone as well as a close proximity mic has been used on an acoustic guitar you will likely hear it. The placing in the soundstage will be decided by the panning on the mixing desk for the original take and the added reverb (if any) If it is not there then it isn't in the recording and that's not the fault of the Dac. Of course Imaging is not the only consideration for buying Dave. It has more to it than that. Musicality and emotion are two aspects of the presentation that are important to me. In my opinion the goal of hifi performance should be to 'move' the listener emotionally in the same way live performances do. If you can achieve that then many other aspects of hifi will naturally be enhanced too. I get the impression already from the comments of listeners that Dave is moving us further down that path.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I like your guitar btw


----------



## rkt31

@DaveRedRef-III, well said. that should be the goal of a dac ie to reproduce the original as close as possible. things like emotional attachment, realism, imaging etc will automatically pour in .


----------



## Rob Watts

sonic77 said:


> I have a question Rob Watts, when you did listening tests, did you try different types of speakers? I own Magnepan 3.7i and those are different from cone speakers, so I was wondering, did you try different speakers and did that make a difference in depth perception?
> I think my Magnepans give some serious depth to music just on their own.
> Also, is "holographic sound" the same as depth in your opinion, or are they referring to two different things?
> Thanks.


 

 Yes the speakers suppress depth perception. But I am not looking for the ultimate depth, but for it to be transparent enough to expose differences. Fortunately, its very easy to hear minute changes in depth perception, certainly for a trained listener. Indeed, the brain tends to exaggerate, in an AB test one will sound flat as a pancake the other much deeper, but the actual change is actually very small.
  
 This is fortunate, as we have no control over the recording chain, and the loudspeakers - this is one of the attractions of doing the pro ADC, that will just leave the microphone and loudspeaker not under my control. Depth perception is a small signal non-linearity problem, and this is an electronics problem, not so much a transducer problem.
  
 Yes depth is about making it more holographic. One of the benefits of getting this right is with movies; film production spend considerable sums on recording, and they spend a lot of effort getting depth cues into the soundtrack. It really adds to the experience by having a convincing depth perception.
  
 But there is more too it than convincingly portraying depth; when you can hear depth cues, you can also perceive other small details too. But its an easy way to assess - something sounds 40 feet away, against something that sounds 45 feet away.
  
 Rob


----------



## Sonic77

rob watts said:


> Yes the speakers suppress depth perception. But I am not looking for the ultimate depth, but for it to be transparent enough to expose differences. Fortunately, its very easy to hear minute changes in depth perception, certainly for a trained listener. Indeed, the brain tends to exaggerate, in an AB test one will sound flat as a pancake the other much deeper, but the actual change is actually very small.
> 
> This is fortunate, as we have no control over the recording chain, and the loudspeakers - this is one of the attractions of doing the pro ADC, that will just leave the microphone and loudspeaker not under my control. Depth perception is a small signal non-linearity problem, and this is an electronics problem, not so much a transducer problem.
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you, I am looking forward to getting my hands on the Dave Dac.


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Yes the speakers suppress depth perception. But I am not looking for the ultimate depth, but for it to be transparent enough to expose differences. Fortunately, its very easy to hear minute changes in depth perception, certainly for a trained listener. Indeed, the brain tends to exaggerate, in an AB test one will sound flat as a pancake the other much deeper, but the actual change is actually very small.
> 
> This is fortunate, as we have no control over the recording chain, and the loudspeakers - this is one of the attractions of doing the pro ADC, that will just leave the microphone and loudspeaker not under my control. Depth perception is a small signal non-linearity problem, and this is an electronics problem, not so much a transducer problem.
> 
> ...


 

 @Rob Watts have you compared the DAVE with other high end DAC's + 13.000 Euro during your developing process, and what is your honest judgement and conclusion of how it compares, if you don't name drop any brands, just sound / musicality wise ?


----------



## Mython

rob watts said:


> sonic77 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a question Rob Watts, when you did listening tests, did you try different types of speakers? I own Magnepan 3.7i and those are different from cone speakers, so I was wondering, did you try different speakers and did that make a difference in depth perception?
> ...


 
  
  
 Rob, I'm sure the DAVE DAC sounds quite holographic, from a depth-perception, standpoint, but I'll be rather disappointed if it doesn't offer _'Hallucinatory 3D imaging'_, because we _*all*_ know that unless the imaging is 'Hallucinatory', it won't sound real enough.


----------



## JaZZ

mython said:


> Rob, I'm sure the DAVE DAC sounds quite holographic, from a depth-perception, standpoint, but I'll be rather disappointed if it doesn't offer _'Hallucinatory 3D imaging'_, because we _*all*_ know that unless the imaging is 'Hallucinatory', it won't sound real enough.


 
  
 +1. 
  
 I'm definitely all for _hallucinatory_ as well. So Rob, take all the time you need for perfectioning DAVE!


----------



## Beolab

So the DAVE does not do any re-clocking like the MSB Analog, it upsample and interpolates instead or?


----------



## Beolab

@Rob Watts 

What if : 

What if the sky was the limit on the price tag, and you had put in like 8 FPGA processors instead of 4 , and you had the ability to program an even more demanding code without any limitations? 

Another cool option on the DAVE would have bin the option to switch on a button and get a mono specced DAVE with a total 8 FPGAś in conjunction. 

Or why not place 4 mono DAVEś in a series


----------



## jcx

popular quote - but with problems
  
 Quote:


rob watts said:


> sonic77 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a question Rob Watts, when you did listening tests, did you try different types of speakers? I own Magnepan 3.7i and those are different from cone speakers, so I was wondering, did you try different speakers and did that make a difference in depth perception?
> ...


 
 depth cues in commercial music and especially movie soundtracks is "painted on" from multiple mic feeds, microphones nearly never in "real" positions vs the "soundscape" being portrayed
  
  
 and the whole effort is deliberalty "artistic" - exaggerating some effects/elements that do help with real world sound perception but usually pushing them to cartoon/caricature level - really has no one here read up on Foley?


----------



## Beolab

Request

@Rob Watts 

Rob you mentioned that the DAVE deliver 6,75 Volts, but what about the current power (Amps) of the headphone output measured in what impedance / Ohms ? 

Then want to know the watt spec @ 50 Ohms if its possible to inform us ?


----------



## AFWannabe

A lot has been revealed in this thread about the state of the art digital implementation of the DAVE, however, the analog implementation is in my humble opinion, at least as important as the digital in a DAC.
 So perhaps Rob Watts could lecture us about topics like power supply, topology and components of the analog outputs, pre-amp vs no pre-amp, etc?...
 Thanks.


----------



## Sonic77

https://www.facebook.com/chordelectronics/videos/vb.110747222358641/665711883528836/?type=2&theater
  
 I don't know if you have seen Mr. Rob Watts DAVE presentation, but it is very informative.
  
  
 Prototype Dave in action, not a fan of those speakers.
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-32HucXPLA


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Rob
Can you give an ETA on sign-off yet?


----------



## Beolab

beolab said:


> Request
> 
> @Rob Watts
> 
> ...





The power spec of the DAVEś headphone output cant be a secret, or can it @Rob Watts ?


----------



## esimms86

daveredref-iii said:


> esimms, modern music with overdubs still has image placement (provided the phase is intact.) the images are just more localised than say an orchestral recording. Dave is unlikely to project a Hammond organ or lead guitar too far away but that is unlikely to be the intention of the producer. I would expect Dave to reproduce exactly what is in the recording but I would not expect Dave to falsely image more closely a recording that has been recorded at distance (as other dacs currently do) based upon Rob Watts explanation of its character. It's all about the truth I would say.
> 
> Judging by comments of other listeners, if there is a sound booth ambience in the vocal recording you will likely hear it. If an ambient microphone as well as a close proximity mic has been used on an acoustic guitar you will likely hear it. The placing in the soundstage will be decided by the panning on the mixing desk for the original take and the added reverb (if any) If it is not there then it isn't in the recording and that's not the fault of the Dac. Of course Imaging is not the only consideration for buying Dave. It has more to it than that. Musicality and emotion are two aspects of the presentation that are important to me. In my opinion the goal of hifi performance should be to 'move' the listener emotionally in the same way live performances do. If you can achieve that then many other aspects of hifi will naturally be enhanced too. I get the impression already from the comments of listeners that Dave is moving us further down that path.




DaveRedRef-III, thank you for your very well thought out reply. I am not trying to blame DAVE for honestly portraying what's in the recording but, rather, simply trying to point out that said honesty might not serve all recordings/genres equally well. Worst case scenario may be some 1970's Pop music with a recording like, say, Led Zeppelin II with it's intentionally over the top mix of close mic'ed guitar, multi mic'ed drums and heavily artificially reverbed vocals(plus absurd panning of instruments and voices). Additionally, close mic'ed Pop music with an orchestra overdub with an obvious different sense of space would be another example.

BTW, thank you for the kinds words for my guitar. It's a 13 string harp guitar built by Allan Beardsell in Canada(www.beardsellguitars.com). It was the first guitar of it's type that Allan ever made and I believe he may have made 4 more over the ensuing years. There are many other HG's in existence made by other builders. If anyone is interested in investigating further I would suggest checking out www.harpguitars.net


----------



## esimms86

Rob Watts talks about how well suited DAVE is to hearing the audio portion of movies. While I can understand his point, I sincerely doubt that you'll find more than a handful of people worldwide who will spend the cash for a DAVE-centered 5.1 multichannel DAC setup.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

esimms86
Good choice of example - Led Zep II my favourite LZ album. When I get my Dave Dac I will certainly give LZ a listen. Btw I don't know if you have it but their Mothership remastering is very good imo. I like Jimmy Page's mixes tbh.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

The area of Dave presentation I am most intrigued to hear is how it presents bass guitar and bass instruments in general. Reason being that imo bass has been one of the Weak areas of digital music. To my ears digital doesn't image bass frequencies very well nor does it focus those frequencies well, at least as I hear them in an analogue performance. Of course a live performance will have massive acoustic compromises but a studio recording or even just listening to a bass guitarist practicing tells me that this area of HiFi reproduction can be improved upon. With a superior focus and far less inherent distortion the Dave Dac Should offer an improvement here. I hope so


----------



## esimms86

daveredref-iii said:


> esimms86
> Good choice of example - Led Zep II my favourite LZ album. When I get my Dave Dac I will certainly give LZ a listen. Btw I don't know if you have it but their Mothership remastering is very good imo. I like Jimmy Page's mixes tbh.




I have the Jimmy Page 24/96 remasters of the entire LZ catalog minus Presence and ITTOD. The Barry Diament remaster of LZ I is also highly recommended. OK, back to DAVE!


----------



## rkt31

I think more neutral and transparent is the dac , more it is suited to every kind of music and recordings. Best example is Hugo itself. I enjoy highly compressed recordings like prince's musicology and very open and dynamic recordings like Robert lucas- like and the locomotives alike on Hugo. so Dave must definitely be an improvement as it betters the Hugo specs and much more.


----------



## rkt31

pls read Luke and the locomotives instead of like and the locomotives in the above post !


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Since this a an fpga dsc will there be other firmwares available as in firmware rolling. Like other dacs 
Tube rolling is a great way to enjoy our music like new 
If we have other firmwares this would allow the same 
Lastly has anyone comforted the dsd to the HUGO 
Thanks in advance


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

"I think more neutral and transparent is the dac , more it is suited to every kind of music and recordings."

Well said rkt31


----------



## lovethatsound

alrainbow said:


> Since this a an fpga dsc will there be other firmwares available as in firmware rolling. Like other dacs
> Tube rolling is a great way to enjoy our music like new
> If we have other firmwares this would allow the same
> Lastly has anyone comforted the dsd to the HUGO
> Thanks in advance


The only way 2 upgrade Dave would be 2 send it back 2 chord,if an upgrade became available . I'm sure Rob has mentioned this in this thread somewhere,hope this helps you out.


----------



## Beolab

Their will not be any SW update according to Rob, but i wounder whats happends when the MQA format beeing released , if the DAVE can handle this or if you have to upgrade to DAVE MQHD then, or if its pre-programmed to handle MQA compressed files.


----------



## bmichels

rob watts said:


> Yes it will do dual data mode.
> 
> Output impedance is the PCB tracking to the OP, I have not measured it yet.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Good to understand that BLU <-> DAVE will be able to use dual mode,but.... so *why the DAVE do not have 2x AES balanced XLR input like the QBD76 ???*
  
*PS:is there a "new" blu CD transport coming from CHORD ? Curent Blu is 10 years old !!*


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Beolab
I would also like to see MQA adopted.


----------



## Sonic77

bmichels said:


> Good to understand that BLU <-> DAVE will be able to use dual mode,but.... so *why the DAVE do not have 2x AES balanced XLR input like the QBD76 ???*
> 
> *PS:is there a "new" blu coming ? Curent Blu is 10 years old !!*


What is blu?


----------



## Sonic77

daveredref-iii said:


> Beolab
> I would also like to see MQA adopted.


MQA website says it's available 2015, is it?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I meant I would like to see it widely adopted including in Chord Electronics products Sonic77


----------



## Beolab

Because no one are willing to answer my question i have digged out the power spec of the headphone output my self: 

It got: 6,75 V RMS with 0,5 A current @ 33 Ohms = 3,3 Watts 

Hugo: 5 V RMS with 0,5 A current @ 33 Ohms = 2,5 Watts 

Is this correct @Rob Watts ?


----------



## bmichels

sonic77 said:


> What is blu?




The Blue is a CD transport from CHORD.


----------



## Sonic77

bmichels said:


> The Blue is a CD transport from CHORD.


oh ok


----------



## Sonic77

daveredref-iii said:


> I meant I would like to see it widely adopted including in Chord Electronics products Sonic77


Me too that would be great, but it was never mentioned.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

For me, any protocol which encourages studios to go back and remaster in a more meticulous manner, significantly reduces file size without degradation of sound quality and (according to the vast majority of pro listeners), leap frogs existing digital and vinyl to deliver something more akin to the clarity of the master tape is a beneficial development for the industry as a whole. People will pay good money for superior quality and everyone benefits. 

I hope that all Manufacturers of audiophile products adopt MQA. That would leave the customer as the arbiter of viability and as with vinyl, the customer has proved a worthy custodian.


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## smial1966

A heads up for any UK head-fiers interested in auditioning DAVE in a two channel and headphone rig, HiFi Lounge will have two DAVE'S on demonstration throughout Saturday 5th December. 
  
 Further details are here - http://hifilounge.tumblr.com/post/133521817158/chord-electronics-open-day-dec-5th-come-and-say
  
 I have no affiliation with HiFi Lounge apart from being a customer eager to hear DAVE. Hope to see some thread contributors at this event.


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## Duncan

I would love to see / hear Dave in action, and Hi-Fi Lounge is less than 10 miles from my house, but I have a conference and then my works Xmas party over that weekend


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## smial1966

Duncan,
  
 Sorry to hear that you can't make the HiFi Lounge event. I'll report back with my listening impressions but they'll be subjective and peculiar to my hearing. Although it should be easy enough to determine whether DAVE wows me or not. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Quote:


duncan said:


> I would love to see / hear Dave in action, and Hi-Fi Lounge is less than 10 miles from my house, but I have a conference and then my works Xmas party over that weekend


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## wisnon

MQA is for quality streaming. It has NOTHING over a home HD setup where space costs little for the full High rez music. I have heard MQA and didnt find anything special.
  
 As for all those who think DSD is flawed, try to get to hear it on a quality DSD Dac that does it right. ..like chipless Lampizator of Jussi's DSD Dac1. Literally nothing else sounds like this in the digital domain.


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## wisnon

daveredref-iii said:


> For me, any protocol which encourages studios to go back and remaster in a more meticulous manner, significantly reduces file size without degradation of sound quality and (according to the vast majority of pro listeners), leap frogs existing digital and vinyl to deliver something more akin to the clarity of the master tape is a beneficial development for the industry as a whole. People will pay good money for superior quality and everyone benefits.
> 
> I hope that all Manufacturers of audiophile products adopt MQA. That would leave the customer as the arbiter of viability and as with vinyl, the customer has proved a worthy custodian.


 
 If its so great, then how comes that everytime its demoed, they never do old version vs MQA version?
  
 IT is really only for quality streaming. I fear you are setting yourself up for disappointment. There was nothing earth shattering in tmy MQA demo.
  
 If you want (relatively) earth shattering, investigate Bughead Emperor playback engine for Digital. My recommendation is to feed it an upconverted DSD256 diet.


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## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> Because no one are willing to answer my question i have digged out the power spec of the headphone output my self:
> 
> It got: 6,75 V RMS with 0,5 A current @ 33 Ohms = 3,3 Watts
> 
> ...


 

 No not quite, the 6.75 V is 300 ohms loaded, and the 0.5A RMS is the current limit. I am back home now for a few days, and do some measurements.
  
 I sent Chord final code last week, it has been tested, and a few minor control issues need tweaking. Update is happening as I type. So I expect to deliver production code to Chord early next week. Then I am off to Asia with a production Dave for some shows.
  
 Rob


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## Whazzzup

Might be a little heavy with the trigger finger but in Canada after contacting the distributor and then being referred to retail, I can't get a reply as to price, availability, ordering protocol, etc... I guess I got to chill.


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## DaveRedRef-III

Wisnon
The majority of debate over MQA seems to continually centre on either a) Lack of a/b comparison or b) What Meridian does to the file. In the same way that science said we could not hear beyond a certain frequency both are irrelevant to professional ears that know a significant change when they hear it. 

You may not have been impressed by MQA but I would prefer to trust the ears of the vast majority of professionals who say there is a significant difference than somebody I do not know on the Internet. If you prefer DSD then good for you but IMO DSD is fundamentally flawed as a protocol judging by my own ears, so I am unlikely to lean toward your view of MQA.


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## wisnon

Dave, I am far from the only person saying this about MQA.
  
 It is clearly for improving streaming and other than that, I dont hold out much hope.
  
 Feel free to think that DSD is fundamentally flawed, thoufgh I suspsect you may never have heard DSD done right (likely heard DSd in PCM drag). You are certainly very entitled to all your views and it is not my job to convince you of anything.
  
 Where I do hold one advantage, is that I have heard ALL these things we speak of here. I have heard the DAVE for a bit in Warsaw, I own an EX, spent quite some hours with Hugo in a critical listedning session, heard MQA for about 20 mins, an own DSD "done right." I also have a VERY extensive DSD library. Very surpising what you can get out of 1 bit streaming!
  
 Anyway, I suspect you will not object to my opinion that DAVE sounds very good with PCM and may turn out to be have a very high price/performance ratio!
  
 Perhaps Rob will choose to elaborate on what he did different for DSD on teh DAVE as opposed to Hugo. I though Hugo DSd was "horrible", and far below its PCM!


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## wisnon

whazzzup said:


> Might be a little heavy with the trigger finger but in Canada after contacting the distributor and then being referred to retail, I can't get a reply as to price, availability, ordering protocol, etc... I guess I got to chill.


 
 Let me guess at $13,500. I am sure it wont be far off….likely a tad less.


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## Rob Watts

SW updates - yes there could be ones, but only if I actually get some worthwhile SQ improvements or a new feature becomes available.
  
 It is limited to back to Chord, or I can potentially do updates when I visit distributors.
  
 AES EBU - the reason its not dual data is because the format is technically poor. Simply use the dual BNC connection. With BNC I have got 768 kHz to work reliably, its impossible to do that with AES EBU.
  
 Rob


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## Rob Watts

wisnon said:


> Dave, I am far from the only person saying this about MQA.
> 
> It is clearly for improving streaming and other than that, I dont hold out much hope.
> 
> ...


 
 The DSD filtering is much more complex that with Hugo, simply because I have more space on the FPGA. There is almost no limit to how much filtering you need to do to remove the HF distortion and noise that the DSD noise shaper generates. Out of band noise creates intermodulation distortion with analogue electronics, if the noise is random then the distortion is random, so you then get noise floor modulation. The brain is very sensitive to noise floor modulation, and perceives it as a brightness to the sound, so reducing it makes it sound smoother and darker. There is virtually no limit to how small noise floor modulation needs to be, so any trace of HF and RF noise is audible.
  
 Just to give you an idea how sensitive RF/HF noise is, I have a HF filter option with Dave. This is a 60 kHz filter, and is used to remove the ADC noise shaper noise from 192k, DXD and 384k recordings. Now with DXD recordings it works a treat, its much smoother and darker. But oddly, you can hear the benefit with 44.1k - even CD sounds smoother. Now that was very unexpected, as the WTA filter has at worst 120 dB of filtering, and typically (for music sources) is 140dB. So HF noise is below -140 dB for CD, but an extra stage of filtering gives a subjective benefit - and its down to the reduction of HF/RF noise. Just to illustrate the problem DSD64 is -20dB down at 100kHz.    
  
 With Dave, I had the freedom to make much more elaborate filters - and ended up with a non decimating design that used 64 DSP cores alone. But it would not fit with the large PCM WTA filters, so Dave has two modes - PCM+ and DSD+. PCM+ is 164k taps, and has Hugo DSD 64/128/256 filter. DSD+ is 82k taps PCM and has the better DSD filter, and also supports DSD512. You can use DSD+ with video, as the group delay is smaller, although most projectors have enough delay to match PCM+ delay.
  
 Rob


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## lovethatsound

rob watts said:


> SW updates - yes there could be ones, but only if I actually get some worthwhile SQ improvements or a new feature becomes available.
> 
> It is limited to back to Chord, or I can potentially do updates when I visit distributors.
> 
> ...


But BNC is prone to interference especially at 768 khz,if you plug something in near a Hugo or unplug something it's causes interference on the Hugo,so it will do the same on Dave,and let's face it no one wants to hear clicks and pop's when their playing their music,and also why does it have 2 go upto 768 khzs anyway.Chord put daul AES EBU on it's blu transport and QBD76 and it should be on Dave.Theirs no reason 2 go upto 768 khzs.


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## Whazzzup

lovethatsound said:


> rob watts said:
> 
> 
> > SW updates - yes there could be ones, but only if I actually get some worthwhile SQ improvements or a new feature becomes available.
> ...




From the chord site. No tech guy here but more can be better?

WTA Filter: It solves the question as to why higher sampling rates sound better. It is well known that 96 kHz (DVD Audio) recordings sound better than 44.1 kHz (CD) recordings. Most people believe that this is due to the presence of ultrasonic information being audible even though the best human hearing is limited to 20kHz. What is not well known is that 768 kHz recordings sound better than 384 kHz and that the sound quality limit for sampling lies in the MHz region.

768 kHz recordings cannot sound better because of information above 200 kHz being important - simply because musical instruments, microphones, amplifiers and loudspeakers do not work at these frequencies nor can we hear them. So if it is not the extra bandwidth that is important, why do higher sampling rates sound better?

The answer is not being able to hear inaudible supersonic information, but the ability to hear the timing of transients more clearly. It has long been known that the human ear and brain can detect differences in the phase of sound between the ears to the order of microseconds This timing difference between the ears is used for localising high frequency sound. Since transients can be detected down to microseconds, the recording system needs to be able to resolve timing of one microsecond. A sampling rate of 1 MHz is needed to achieve this!

However, 44.1 kHz sampling can be capable of accurately resolving transients by the use of digital filtering. Digital filtering can go some way towards improving resolution without the need for higher sampling rates.

In order to do this the filters need to have infinite long tap lengths. Currently all reconstruction filters have relatively short tap lengths - the largest commercial device is only about 256 taps. It is due to this short tap length and the filter algorithm employed that generates the transient timing errors. These errors turned out to be very audible. Going from 256 taps to 2048 taps gave a massive improvement in sound quality - much smoother, more focused sound quality, with an incredibly deep and precise sound stage.


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## Beolab

rob watts said:


> No not quite, the 6.75 V is 300 ohms loaded, and the 0.5A RMS is the current limit. I am back home now for a few days, and do some measurements.
> 
> I sent Chord final code last week, it has been tested, and a few minor control issues need tweaking. Update is happening as I type. So I expect to deliver production code to Chord early next week. Then I am off to Asia with a production Dave for some shows.
> 
> Rob




Hi Rob, i realy apprichiate your effort if you could lend me the watts figur in 
@46 and 50 Ohms , i would be very pleased! 

So AES/EBU are not as good as BNC thats controversial to many on this forum i think, but you learn something new every day 

The best connection is still Optical Toslink over I2s , AES/EBU , BNC coax if you have to choose one?


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## lovethatsound

beolab said:


> Hi Rob, i realy apprichiate your effort if you could lend me the watts figur in
> @46 and 50 Ohms , i would be very pleased!
> 
> So AES/EBU are not as good as BNC thats controversial to many on this forum i think, but you learn something new every day
> ...


what Rob is actually saying is that coax is the only cable that will go upto 768KHZs,which could be true,but coax also is the worst cable for picking up interference,and the higher you go up the frequencys the worst it gets,so lets say you plug something in near Dave,you will hear a click or pop over your music,
like you do when using coax on the Hugo.Rob has said on the Hugo thread that coax colour's the sound.


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## Beolab

lovethatsound said:


> what Rob is actually saying is that coax is the only cable that will go upto 768KHZs,which could be true,but coax also is the worst cable for picking up interference,and the higher you go up the frequencys the worst it gets,so lets say you plug something in near Dave,you will hear a click or pop over your music,
> like you do when using coax on the Hugo.Rob has said on the Hugo thread that coax colour's the sound.




Yes, i understand, but he claims poor connection. So Toslink is the best if it was possible to use it with 768 mhz


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## wisnon

Rob,Thanks for the fast reply.

No decimation sounds very promising. DAVE already does very well with Pcm for the 25 mins or so I spent with it. Kudos...it is clearly a cut or 3 above Hugo.


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## ecwl

Lovethatsound, Sounds like you really want dual AES for your Chord Blu CD transport, eh. Except I think we are dealing with a different situation with DAVE than with Chord DAC64 or QBD76. Blu has its own internal 4096-tap WTA filter to upsample the 44kHz CD data to 176kHz which is why you're using the dual AES connection from your Chord Blu CD Transport to the Chord QBD76. And it sounds like you prefer the upsampled 176kHz sound. I'm guessing it's because DAC64 only has 1024 taps and QBD76 only has 18000 taps so anything to lighten the load off the DAC would be nice? Would be interesting if Rob Watts comments.
  
 But with the DAVE, from everything I've read, the oversampling/upsampling algorithms are completely changed. So I'm not sure if you really still want to use your Chord Blu to upsample to 176kHz first and then send the signal via dual AES to let DAVE process the signal. You are probably better off sending your Chord Blu CD transport signal through a single AES (hence noise concerns resolved) into Chord DAVE at 44 kHz and then let the new 164000-tap Chord DAVE do all its own internal processing with the latest algorithms and technology. I know it would be a bit odd to have such a nice CD transport with its own high-end internal upsampling feature disabled just to feed the new Chord DAVE. I think that's what sucks about constantly updating digital technology as they go obsolete so quickly. But I don't keep my iPhone 3G, 4 or iPad nano or old PC/laptops around and force them to integrate with my current workflow and modern software. But if you're not convinced that sending the original 44kHz CD signal to DAVE would sound better, you can always use the dual BNC link to send DAVE the 176kHz upsampled signal from the Blu transport for comparison.


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## lovethatsound

Yes your right i would like Dave to have a Daul AES,and i think it's lazy of chord not 2 do so.But there are other reasons as well .1 ive tred lot's of different cables on my setup,and Daul AES sounds better than Daul coax.2 you will get interference problems using coax with Dave as you do with the Hugo,(plugs being plug in or out,equipment being turned off or on)This doesn't happen with a QBD76 even using coax.But using a Hugo or Dave you will get interference because it's going up to 768 KHZS.


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## ecwl

lovethatsound, I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding what Rob Watts is talking about when he commented on 768kHz. When he responded to you, he was assuming that you were trying to use a computer to upsample the music to 768kHz and then he suggested that if you really want to do that, just get an adaptor to feed a dual coax signal to Chord DAVE at 768kHz, instead of using a dual AES input. But in reality, I'm not even sure if one can download or even record music at 768kHz. So the point is a bit moot, especially if you don't have a high-end computer audio setup.
  
 My understanding is that your fundamental issue is that you want to connect your Chord Blu to the Chord DAVE. I'm sure when you connect the Chord Blu to the QBD76, dual AES sounds better than dual coax. But the reason why you're using dual AES/dual coax is because your Chord Blu is reading the original CD data at 44kHz and then upsampling them to 176kHz and back when Chord Blu was developed, the standard way Chord sends 176kHz signals the Chord DAC64 is via dual coax or dual AES. But nowadays, with modern computer audio connections, we often use a single coax or single AES to send 176kHz signal so that connection interface is essentially obsolete.
  
 As I said, I'm sure for you, dual AES sounds better than dual coax. There are possible many reasons for this. Just as Rob Watts addressed the single-ended/unbalanced vs balanced connection debate between DAC/preamp/amp which to some is controversial, there are similar debates on AES vs coax. But I don't think this is a real issue practically speaking for you if you're to get the Chord DAVE.
  
 Bottomline is that once you have the Chord DAVE, you can connect your Blu with a single AES cable to send 44kHz CD data to the DAVE and the DAVE will upsample it to whatever resolution it needs to be at (probably 11MHz) with the latest algorithm or you can connect your Blu with a dual coax cable to have the Blu upsample the 44kHz CD data to 176kHz first using an obsolete algorithm from several years ago and then have DAVE upsample the 176kHz signal to the DAC's final resolution (say 11MHz). And my point is that you'll get better sound with the single AES cable to send 44kHz CD data to the DAVE. In fact, even if Chord had included the dual AES input for you, my speculation is that you're still better off turning off the upsampling to 176kHz on the Blu because the original 44kHz signal would sound better than an upsampled 176kHz signal from the Blu to the DAVE. No matter what you do, you're never going to get 768kHz to come out of the Chord Blu to send to the DAVE. I think this is the main reason why Chord DAVE decided to abandon the dual AES digital input because it is a legacy connection that won't lead to any sonic improvements. 
  
 As for you noticing that when you plug your coax in and out of the Hugo or turning on and off equipments that there is interference coming out of the Hugo is probably completely unrelated to the coaxial connection as it'll probably happen even if the Hugo has an AES input. As you pointed out, this does not happen with coax with the QBD76. Moreover, it definitely has nothing to do with 768kHz because your CD player or other sources are likely connecting to the Hugo at 44kHz or 88kHz. My guess this is likely a grounding issue but that's outside the scope of the forum.
  
 So my point is that you can have your cake and eat it too. Get the DAVE, use a single AES to connect the Chord Blu without upsampling to the DAVE and you'll get the best sound from the latest technology with your Chord Blu. You get to use your favorite AES signal connection over the coax.
  
 I think to a large extent, we are all slightly attached to historic connections or equipments that we already have. Even for Rob Watts, he prefers to use Toslink. But truth is, if achieving optimal performance is desired, I strongly suspect a high-end computer audio setup with proper USB clocking and filtering would beat single/dual Toslink/coax/AES inputs (unless you're going to add an equally high-end USB to coax/AES adaptor like Berkeley Audio Design). And there are a few ready-made solutions from companies like Aurender or SoTM or even Auralic which would probably beat the performance of the Chord Blu.


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## Beolab

wisnon said:


> Rob,Thanks for the fast reply.
> 
> Sounds like you have listened to the DAVE, so can you give us some more detailed impressions agains the Hugo?
> Does it sound like a pumped up Hugo or does it got a total different sound?
> ...


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## Rob Watts

Listened to Dave? A little bit - just calculated I have spent 5,000 listening hours on it (first prototype to production).
  
 And I lug it around on carry on for hotels because I miss it too much!
  
 Sound quality has been an interesting story. Now my intention is to make things as transparent as possible, as the gap from listening to a live orchestra to hearing it in the home is vast. And if every link in the chain was perfectly transparent, it would not be a vast difference when listening to live unamplified sound.
  
 Problem is nobody has heard a perfectly transparent DAC. Neutral really means average tonal balance and peoples idea of transparent is often etched and over emphasised details, giving a hyper sound quality but no musicality. And its musicality (defined as having emotional and involving music) that is the purpose of this - not something that sounds impressive for which only one recording actually works.
  
 Half way through the development, I had made substantial improvements from Hugo. But it was getting smoother, and darker in tonal balance - to the point where I knew people would say its far too smooth. I felt it was too dark - I like the way Hugo's presentation can sound very fast and sharp but at the same time smooth. But Dave's extreme smoothness was not a colouration or error. Some designers add distortion (2nd harmonic) to the bass to make it sound phat, warm and soft. Or they use capacitors that create low frequency errors that fatten up the bass too. Dave's refinement was not this; it was based on reduction of distortion (most notably noise floor modulation - Dave's noise floor is at -180dB and is completely unchanged whether there is a signal or not - no other non Chord DAC has come even remotely close to this level of performance). So I knew for sure that Dave's smoothness was true transparency, not some tuning artefact or distortion. And I would have been prepared to leave it at that, as I mentioned earlier nobody has a clue as to what a perfect DAC would sound like.
  
 But then another extremely important milestone was reached. One of the puzzles I needed to find out was the mystery of why Hugo had the timing performance it has. By timing I mean Hugo has this ability to enable one to perceive the starting and stopping of notes with remarkable ease, previous DAC's I designed sounded a bit soft, muddled and confused by comparison. Also, you could follow rhythm with ease, and perceive the interplay of different instruments - the way that musicians "talk" to one another. It also had the ability to paint a wide range of timbre and perception of timbre is down to timing too. All of these qualities is down to the perception of timing, so from an engineering POV where was this performance coming from as it was entirely unexpected. Now Hugo was the first project that had a major upgrade in all of the code that goes into the FPGA - this was a 6 year development. So there was something I had done that unexpectedly improved the perception of timing - and I know it was not the WTA filter, as I had previously designed 32,000 tap filters and they did not sound like Hugo.
  
 What I had done was to improve noise floor modulation by using much better 2048 FS interpolation filters. And these proved to be the magic sauce of Hugo's ability to reproduce the starting and stopping of notes. In short it was the time domain accuracy that was important. Before Dave, my target was time domain accuracy of less than 1uS when reconstructing the missing bits from one sample to another. This number is based on the inter aural delay that we know is accurate to about 4uS, but its not based on how the brain processes ear data - science has no idea how the brain separates instruments out and calculates placement information. Things we completely take for granted. But the reality is that there is no real limit to how accurate the time domain needs to be - instead of targeting uS it needs to be nS. Once that was appreciated, I could radically redesign the interpolation filters to more accurately reconstruct the continuous time analogue signal that was present at the ADC.
  
 Boy did this make a big difference. The perception of timing was much faster and brighter than before; instruments were more real with more sense of individual power. Now when it becomes easier to hear the starting and stopping of notes, things become much brighter and more immediate. Its like adjusting the focus on a lens; poor focus means the edges are blurred and soft and rounded; putting it back into focus gives edges much more immediacy and become more vivid. Now like the situation with Dave's refinement, the perception of speed and timing is not something artificial; a WTA filter running at 16 FS (1.4uS resolution) is fundamentally less time domain accurate than a filter running at 256 FS (88nS resolution).
  
 What was nice was that the balance was restored (and I stress I am not trying to create a particular sound) in that Dave went from sounding really rich and dark and impossibly smooth to something much faster and immediate. Now Dave still sounds rich and smooth; but it is also capable (when the occasion demands) of sounding very fast and sharp.
  
 The next aspect that had a lot of attention was depth perception. Now this is an area with audio I have had a considerable interest over; listen to a organ and a choir in a cathedral. If its 100 feet away, it sounds exactly 100 feet away. But play it back on your audio and its at best only a few feet back. Why is audio so bad at depth perception? The problem is down to being able to accurately reproduce very small signals. As soon as you get small errors in amplitude for small signals, the brain can no longer get a handle on depth and so does not give you an impression of depth -  you just get an organ sounding very ambient but with no sensation of depth - flat as a pancake. With DAC's there is a fundamental problem of small signal amplitude accuracy. R2R DAC's have enormous problems with this, as you simply can't get the resistors to match - and it shows with very large measurable errors. Delta sigma have better accuracy, but they still suffer. We can get a handle on a noise shapers performance by running simulations of the noise shaper. Simulations aren't a pretence, in case of Verilog simulation its actually the real performance of the noise shaper. The best noise shapers in high end silicon DAC's are at best 140dB devices - that is, if you run a Verilog simulation with say a 0dB 1kHz signal you will get -140dB THD and noise. This means the noise shapers noise floor is at best at -160 or -170dB. Now this means that a signal at -170 dB is completely lost - any signals below the noise shaper noise floor is eliminated. So small signals are attenuated or altered by the noise shaper - and this affects depth perception.
  
 Now with Hugo, the noise shapers are 200 dB performance (that's about a thousand times more resolution than conventional high end DAC's), and this is one of the reasons why Hugo has the reputation for reproducing good depth. Now I thought that 200 dB performance was good enough - but you can never make assumptions as to whether something will make a difference unless you do rigorous carefully controlled listening tests. With Dave I had enough space to do more advanced noise shaping. So I increased it to 220 dB - and depth got better. Then 240 dB - again you could easily hear an improvement in depth. This process continued over several months with radical re-designs. At 330dB it was still sounding deeper - eventually I got 350 dB performance and you could still hear an improvement from 330dB. Now this is completely extraordinary; and if somebody told me that 350dB performance was necessary a few years ago I would have said they were nuts as it implies that there is no limit to how accurate small signals need to be - that the brain can detect any size of error no matter how small. Utterly amazing - but I can only report what I can easily and consistently hear.
  
 At the end of this process, I could hear depth that is around four times deeper than with Hugo. Now that is only if depth is recorded, close miked sounds with no reverb still sound flat as it is supposed to.
  
 So Dave has been a very exciting and rewarding project for me. I got to find discover more about DAC's in the last year than the previous decade. Most importantly I understand how digital degrades depth perception and upsets the perception of timing - and these things are absolutely key for trying to re-create the musicality of live unamplified music. In short I have vastly underestimated how sensitive the ear/brain is to extraordinarily small timing and amplitude errors.
  
 So how does Dave sound? I am (quite rightly) not supposed to talk about the sound of my own projects but I guess I can hint at it. Its like a Hugo but with a lot more depth - that's the first thing one notices. For the first time ever, I am now starting to get depth to sound more like real life - some recordings can sound really spooky as to how deep they can go. And this aspect is (mostly) down to the noise shaper performance. But to get 350 dB on the noise shaper was pretty involved - I ended up with 17th order, with 46 integrators. Its so huge the noise shaper alone would not fit on Hugo's FPGA. But the improvements in noise floor modulation, and the timing accuracy, also have a very big influence, but the first thing you should notice is the uncanny depth.
  
 Rob


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## bmichels

Thanks a lot Rob for this insight. Very interesting. 

You say "....I lug it around on carry on for hotels because I miss it too much! ". 

--> In this hotel situation,* what transportable source are you using ?* can you describe in détail your portable set-up please: A plain laptop ? PC or Mac ? With what software ? What headphone ? 
Is this transportable source at the Level to do DAVE justice ?

Thanks in advance


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## Beolab

@Rob Watts thanks for the wright up! 

You mention that "Its like a Hugo but with a lot more depth - that's the first thing one notices." 

I hope the soundstage are greater, and that it also got more musicallity than the Hugo without any harsh edginess in the upper mid/highs. 


Im waiting with great suspense for your mesaurments of the Dave headphone output spec in 
46 Ohms Vs the the Hugo spec mesaured in watts? 

Have a nice sunday Rob !


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## ecwl

Having read @Rob Watts' comments a few times, and thinking about lovethatsound's current use of Chord Blu upsampling to 176kHz to the Chord QBD76, while waiting for the DAVE, I wonder if I were playing CD quality materials at 44.1kHz from my dedicated desktop off JRiver, whether I should always upsample to 176kHz with the JRiver SSRC algorithm to improve performance of my Chord QBD76HDSD. If the increased upsampling (2048fs) of the Hugo and DAVE is a primary contributor to improved timing performance and Chord Blu's standard connection to Chord QBD76 is to upsample the CD data to 176kHz (4fs?), wouldn't the optimal USB input of CD data into the Chord QBD76HDSD also be to upsample the 44kHz to 176kHz (assuming the upsampling algorithm is good)? So far, listening to the two different ways of playing music, 176kHz upsampling does sound better but it maybe confirmation bias.
  
 I can actually see this principle apply to some DACs but not others depending on the DAC design (and upsampling algorithm used off the computer). For example, you wouldn't want to do this if you already have a DAC with an apodizing filter or your DAC always converts the final output to DSD64/DSD128. But if you have an NOS DAC, you may want to upsample to the highest sample rate the DAC can handle unless the DAC already upsamples, e.g. Schiit Yggradasil.


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## lovethatsound

ecwl said:


> Having read @Rob Watts' comments a few times, and thinking about lovethatsound's current use of Chord Blu upsampling to 176kHz to the Chord QBD76, while waiting for the DAVE, I wonder if I were playing CD quality materials at 44.1kHz from my dedicated desktop off JRiver, whether I should always upsample to 176kHz with the JRiver SSRC algorithm to improve performance of my Chord QBD76HDSD. If the increased upsampling (2048fs) of the Hugo and DAVE is a primary contributor to improved timing performance and Chord Blu's standard connection to Chord QBD76 is to upsample the CD data to 176kHz (4fs?), wouldn't the optimal USB input of CD data into the Chord QBD76HDSD also be to upsample the 44kHz to 176kHz (assuming the upsampling algorithm is good)? So far, listening to the two different ways of playing music, 176kHz upsampling does sound better but it maybe confirmation bias.
> 
> I can actually see this principle apply to some DACs but not others depending on the DAC design (and upsampling algorithm used off the computer). For example, you wouldn't want to do this if you already have a DAC with an apodizing filter or your DAC always converts the final output to DSD64/DSD128. But if you have an NOS DAC, you may want to upsample to the highest sample rate the DAC can handle unless the DAC already upsamples, e.g. Schiit Yggradasil.


hi ecwl
I've got to admit I'm more than happy with my blu and QBD76,it just sounds so good,it just sounds so right.And after reading Robs thoughts about Dave,and still owning a Hugo myself ive come to a conclusion that just because something is coming out that's new doesn't mean that it's better,it could be that the QBD76 will still sound better than Dave.I mean i loved the Hugo until i heard the QBD76 which sounds much better than the Hugo,so it could be that chord has already made it's best Dac.


----------



## Hubert H

ecwl said:


> Having read @Rob Watts' comments a few times, and thinking about lovethatsound's current use of Chord Blu upsampling to 176kHz to the Chord QBD76, while waiting for the DAVE, I wonder if I were playing CD quality materials at 44.1kHz from my dedicated desktop off JRiver, whether I should always upsample to 176kHz with the JRiver SSRC algorithm to improve performance of my Chord QBD76HDSD. If the increased upsampling (2048fs) of the Hugo and DAVE is a primary contributor to improved timing performance and Chord Blu's standard connection to Chord QBD76 is to upsample the CD data to 176kHz (4fs?), wouldn't the optimal USB input of CD data into the Chord QBD76HDSD also be to upsample the 44kHz to 176kHz (assuming the upsampling algorithm is good)? So far, listening to the two different ways of playing music, 176kHz upsampling does sound better but it maybe confirmation bias.
> 
> I can actually see this principle apply to some DACs but not others depending on the DAC design (and upsampling algorithm used off the computer). For example, you wouldn't want to do this if you already have a DAC with an apodizing filter or your DAC always converts the final output to DSD64/DSD128. But if you have an NOS DAC, you may want to upsample to the highest sample rate the DAC can handle unless the DAC already upsamples, e.g. Schiit Yggradasil.


 
  
 But the implication of Rob's design thought is that 44.1 is good enough, as the DAC gets nearer to the ideal, the sampling rate becomes less important. This is, as I understand it, why 44.1 sounds closer to the higher sampling rates/upsampled files as the taps are increased. Ultimately, as Rob has said, an infinite tap length filter reconstitutes the original sample perfectly. As an infinite tap length also, I think, implies an infinite sampling delay, the perfect DAC is only mathematical. But we don't need perfect, just a DAC that surpasses our ear/brain sensitivity.
  
 I also have a BLU and an Indigo with the HDSD upgrade. I find it quite difficult to tell the difference between a single optical connection at 88.2 vs AES dual data. I run dual data mode with AES simply because I made my own connectors from certified AES cable and I use the Indigo optical input for my DAB tuner. I can't tell the difference between my AES cable and expensive (£2k) cables although A/B'ing is more difficult.
  
 I think clicks and pops and interference via coax are nonsense, if the cable is as specified and terminated correctly there won't be any clicks and pops unless something else is fundamentally wrong. Again, I had expensive coax cable and could hear no difference between my AES cables and coax in dual data mode - I sold the coax. All of this is with the QBD76 or Indigo, with the DAC64 I found dual data to clearly be a better solution and thought that the coax sounded better - marginally and subjectively.
  
 One caveat, I have done a simple electrical installation (around £200) that made a significant difference to the sound of my hifi, no clicks or pops at all. Before this I could hear cable differences including mains cables - but not now 
  
 Finally, the BLU upsamples to a single AES/coax/TOSlink connection too albeit at 88.2.
  
 H.


----------



## lovethatsound

hubert h said:


> But the implication of Rob's design thought is that 44.1 is good enough, as the DAC gets nearer to the ideal, the sampling rate becomes less important. This is, as I understand it, why 44.1 sounds closer to the higher sampling rates/upsampled files as the taps are increased. Ultimately, as Rob has said, an infinite tap length filter reconstitutes the original sample perfectly. As an infinite tap length also, I think, implies an infinite sampling delay, the perfect DAC is only mathematical. But we don't need perfect, just a DAC that surpasses our ear/brain sensitivity.
> 
> I also have a BLU and an Indigo with the HDSD upgrade. I find it quite difficult to tell the difference between a single optical connection at 88.2 vs AES dual data. I run dual data mode with AES simply because I made my own connectors from certified AES cable and I use the Indigo optical input for my DAB tuner. I can't tell the difference between my AES cable and expensive (£2k) cables although A/B'ing is more difficult.
> 
> ...


I'm afraid clicks and pops is not nonsense with coax when using the new generation of dac from chord eg,Hugo,2 Qute and mojo.somewhere on the 2 Qute thread this is also mentioned,and I'm sure it's been mentioned on the mojo thread as well.If you use optical it doesn't happen,only when you use coax.let me explain,if you turn on or off a piece of equipment you will hear a click over your music,the same if you plug something in or out.like i say this only happens with coax.For some reason the new generation of chord dacs seam to be picking up interference when using coax.And by the way i know it's not an earthing problem at my end,i also know other people have had the same problem.


----------



## Mython

Rob, I strongly suspect that, no matter how good DAVE sounds, it will very probably sound _*exponentially*_ better than audiophiles are accustomed to, once you have finalised an ADC using the same approach. Then the timing accuracy will be probably be substantially better than anything yet achieved in digital music recording and playback.
  
 If you'll forgive the simplistic analogy;  instead of 1 + 1 sounding as good as 2, I will not be surprised if your ADC (1)  +  DAVE DAC (1) ends up yielding a result sounding as (subjectively) good as 3, 4, or even 5!


----------



## esimms86

An interesting experiment would be to playback music using DAVE with XX High End playback software. The Phasure NOS DACs are R2R ladder DACs specifically designed to pair with XXHE software. XXHE can upsample to 768kHz, however, until now it appears that the Phasure DACs were the only ones that could take advantage of that degree of upsampling. And then DAVE came along...


----------



## Rob Watts

esimms86 said:


> An interesting experiment would be to playback music using DAVE with XX High End playback software. The Phasure NOS DACs are R2R ladder DACs specifically designed to pair with XXHE software. XXHE can upsample to 768kHz, however, until now it appears that the Phasure DACs were the only ones that could take advantage of that degree of upsampling. And then DAVE came along...


 
  
 Oh dear. Do NOT use your computer to up-sample or change the data when you use one of my DAC's.
  
 All competent DAC's up-sample and filter internally; the issue is how well that filtering is done, in terms of how well the timing of transients is reconstructed from the original analogue. Computers are poor devices to use for manipulating data in real time as they are concurrent serial devices  - everything has to go through one to 8 processors in sequence. With hardware and FPGA's you do not need to do that, you can do thousands of operations in parallel. Dave has 166 DSP cores with each core being able to do one FIR tap in one clock cycle. That is incredibly powerful processing power way more powerful than a PC.
  
 But its not just about raw processing power but the algorithm for the filter. The WTA filter is the only algorithm that has been designed to reduce timing of transients errors, and the only one that has been optimised by thousands of listening tests.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> Hi Rob, i realy apprichiate your effort if you could lend me the watts figur in
> @46 and 50 Ohms , i would be very pleased!
> 
> So AES/EBU are not as good as BNC thats controversial to many on this forum i think, but you learn something new every day
> ...


 

 With Dave the best input (by a tiny margin) is USB, then optical is very close. The BNC/AES depends upon the source and cabling.
  
 I have done some measurements:
  
 1% THD 6.8v RMS with 300 ohm (154 mW)
 1% THD 6.8v RMS with 33 ohm (1.4W)
  
 Output impedance post plug is 55 milli ohms, or damping factor of 145.
  
 At 1kHz 2.5v RMS 300 ohms THD is 0.000016% (-136dB relative to 2.5v RMS)
  
 At 1kHz 2.5v RMS 33 ohms THD is 0.000059% (-124.6dB relative to 2.5v RMS)
  
 So for your 46 ohms power will be 1W RMS.
  
 Rob


----------



## bmichels

rob watts said:


> With Dave the best input (by a tiny margin) is USB, then optical is very close. The BNC/AES depends upon the source and cabling.
> 
> I have done some measurements:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Rob.
  
 So it should be OK to drive a HE1000 with some authority ?


----------



## Rob Watts

bmichels said:


> Thanks Rob.
> 
> So it should be OK to drive a HE1000 with some authority ?


 

 Yes it comes out at 121dB SPL with 6.8v driving it.
  
 Rob


----------



## Christer

Hello Rob, you mentioned you were off to Asia with a production DAVE. When and where? I was at the Adelphi in Singapore obviously a bit late  this time after the Mojo demo . I'd love to audition Dave ,there or in KL where I will  be next week after leaving Sri Lanka.
 Meanwhile I am a bit tempted to buy HIFIMAN 1000 headphones which sounded pretty impressive via my  HUGO I must say.
 A bit smoother than I am used to with my HD800 on strings and very clear and  clean transients although maybe  a bit lacking in air compared to my HD800.
 It would be really nice to hear how DAVE handles  some of my favourite  classical music  masterfiles.
 Cheers Chris


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes I start my travels with a production Dave this Wed:
  
 Singapore show at Parkroyal, 28-30 Nov
 Manilla 1 and 2 Dec
 San Francisco dealer event at Audio Vision on 3 Dec
 Indonesia Mook Headphone show (afternoon 6 Dec only)
 Malaysia KL 9 Dec
 Singapore Mook headphone show 11-13 Dec
  
 Rob


----------



## Christer

Hello again Rob, and thanks for your response .It sure  looks like you have quite a busy  time coming up.
 I can't say I envy you flying from Asia to San Francisco and then back again within days.
 Unfortunately it seems  like I will miss these events, unless I can change one of my next flights. I am flying out from Sri Lanka to KL on the 30th of November and then onwards from there on the 7th December  to Thailand.
 Where in KL on the 9th?
 I know Park Royal in Singapore having stayed there several times,but I don't think I can change my ticket from Colombo to KL to an earlier date.But I will try.
 Anyway I will  as usual when visiting Singapore or KL, get a dose of live classical concerts in KL on the 3rd and  5th and 6th December. The so often overlooked point of reference and calibration.
 Maybe I will be back in Singapore for the Can Jam in Februari. Will you be there with Dave then?
 Back on topic of headphones and HUGO this time again. Would you recommend HE1000 as a good match for HUGO?
 I really liked how natural  and realistic strings sounded via those headphones and was  I  was also quite impressed  by how well normally  difficult to reproduce, percussive instruments where rendered. 
 They seemed a bit harder to drive than my HD 800 and I had to raise levels into blue on most tracks I heard during the 2 hours I listened at Sound and Vision at the Adelphi.
 With my HD 800 I almost always stay within green level on my HUGO.
 PS How is the ADC  you mentioned working on,  progressing?
 Chris


----------



## highendhifi

Joined this forum specifically to comment on my limited listening to Dave at the National Audio Show-I asked the guys at Fanthorpe's to put some "busy" music on that wasn't the usual demo fare and they kindly obliged at a quiet time with some of Clutch's rock-wow! This was definitely not a "HiFi" recording but it rocked-great headroom, great depth, separation and tonality was spot on. The Fanthorpe's guys were concerned the music would deter people but the room filled again: I think people were amazed to hear what they thought was a live band...! I haven't got any Chord product yet but this is now on my have-to-have list. It played high-res files via a Melco through PMC fact 8's I think. 
I am new to the digital files world and I would be using the Dave initially to better my CD replay, of which I have no intention of getting rid of and I think the humble silver disc is finally realising its full potential thanks to engineers and artisans like Rob Watts. 
It took me years to accept CD's and reluctantly I moved/was forced to buy on CD but it was clear to me that the music had too much missing compare to analogue but now I am a CD convert just as they are dying it seems. 
As a newbie,, I have limits to my profile and posts so it may be worthwhile stating that I currently have as my main rig Bryston/PMC/Atlas gear with an additional McIntosh MCD550 for (disappointing) SACD replay. 
Rob's presence and contributions here are really appreciated and enjoyed-thank you, Rob!


----------



## JaZZ

Welcome to Head-Fi!


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> With Dave the best input (by a tiny margin) is USB, then optical is very close. The BNC/AES depends upon the source and cabling.
> 
> I have done some measurements:
> 
> ...




Thanks alot @Rob Watts ! 

So its like twice as powerful as the Hugo in 46 Ohms then? 

Whats is the max SPL in 46Ohms / 85 db sensitivity ?


----------



## Sonic77

highendhifi said:


> Joined this forum specifically to comment on my limited listening to Dave at the National Audio Show-I asked the guys at Fanthorpe's to put some "busy" music on that wasn't the usual demo fare and they kindly obliged at a quiet time with some of Clutch's rock-wow! This was definitely not a "HiFi" recording but it rocked-great headroom, great depth, separation and tonality was spot on. The Fanthorpe's guys were concerned the music would deter people but the room filled again: I think people were amazed to hear what they thought was a live band...! I haven't got any Chord product yet but this is now on my have-to-have list. It played high-res files via a Melco through PMC fact 8's I think.
> I am new to the digital files world and I would be using the Dave initially to better my CD replay, of which I have no intention of getting rid of and I think the humble silver disc is finally realising its full potential thanks to engineers and artisans like Rob Watts.
> It took me years to accept CD's and reluctantly I moved/was forced to buy on CD but it was clear to me that the music had too much missing compare to analogue but now I am a CD convert just as they are dying it seems.
> As a newbie,, I have limits to my profile and posts so it may be worthwhile stating that I currently have as my main rig Bryston/PMC/Atlas gear with an additional McIntosh MCD550 for (disappointing) SACD replay.
> Rob's presence and contributions here are really appreciated and enjoyed-thank you, Rob!



Great review, welcome to Head Fi!
Hopefully an announcement will be made when shipping for the Dave Dac happens.


----------



## rkt31

why so much worry about the output and power of dave ? I used Beyer dt880 600 ohm with Hugo and I could not go beyond light blue and still there was plenty of clean output left upto purple.


----------



## Rob Watts

christer said:


> Hello again Rob, and thanks for your response .It sure  looks like you have quite a busy  time coming up.
> I can't say I envy you flying from Asia to San Francisco and then back again within days.
> Unfortunately it seems  like I will miss these events, unless I can change one of my next flights. I am flying out from Sri Lanka to KL on the 30th of November and then onwards from there on the 7th December  to Thailand.
> Where in KL on the 9th?
> ...


 
 I think the Malaysia KL stop is just a press event.
  
 But yes it looks like I will be doing Singapore Canjam too, after CES.
  
 Not tried the HE1000, its on my to do list.
  
 ADC looks like starting in anger soon. I have done it before, so its not a difficult project - just upgrading the reference DAC's. R and D for the filters have been done, so I know what to do for that.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> Thanks alot @Rob Watts !
> 
> So its like twice as powerful as the Hugo in 46 Ohms then?
> 
> Whats is the max SPL in 46Ohms / 85 db sensitivity ?


 
  
 That would be 1W RMS, so that works out at 115 dB SPL.
  
 Rob


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I shall be looking out for new recordings, which have used your ADC's, in future Rob. I have no doubt Chord will have an impact in that space. 
  
 Is Dave now signed off?


----------



## highendhifi

Thanks for the welcome guys  honoured to be here!
I blew some money on upgrading my PMC speakers from IB2i's to MB2SE's as a result of the NAS which are now being built but I kinda wish I'd ordered the Dave there and then too.


----------



## Rob Watts

daveredref-iii said:


> I shall be looking out for new recordings, which have used your ADC's, in future Rob. I have no doubt Chord will have an impact in that space.
> 
> Is Dave now signed off?


 
  
 No doubt some sample recordings will be made available.
  
 Production code was sent today, a very minor change is happening, so tomorrow I will be finished. Chord should start shipping very soon.
  
 Rob


----------



## highendhifi

Hi Rob-I just wanted to say that your contributions and evident passion has swayed me to a purchase. So many manufacturers,engineers and designers hide away from their customers-it is extraordinarily refreshing to have such input and communication from anyone involved in the design, manufacture and sale of hifi let alone such a tirelessly passionate artisan such as yourself. Enough gushing, but seriously, many thanks.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Yippee!
 Thanks for the update Rob.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

These must be very exciting times for the Chord business, (employees and management alike). With the release of Hugo the company expanded their client footprint hugely. They have followed up quite quickly with Hugo TT, 2 Qute, Dave, Mojo and soon to release Chord ADC's. Hugo, Mojo and ADC's are completely new markets. It is a great business story. I just hope Chord are able to maintain their well deserved reputation for bullet proof build quality. Quality standards are the hard bit for any fast growing company. I wish them every success. UK knowhow selling to the world.


----------



## Jawed

Hi Rob, I've been enjoying Hugo TT for just over a week now. I hardly need say that it's extraordinary 



rob watts said:


> Its so huge the noise shaper alone would not fit on Hugo's FPGA. But the improvements in noise floor modulation, and the timing accuracy, also have a very big influence, but the first thing you should notice is the uncanny depth.



I wonder if it would be theoretically possible to produce/re-program Hugo FPGA without the DSD functionality? Would it save enough FPGA capacity to enable you to ramp-up the PCM side, using some of what you've learnt from DAVE?


----------



## bmichels

> .... Would it save enough FPGA capacity to enable you to ramp-up the PCM side, using some of what you've learnt from DAVE?


 
  
 very good and smart idea.


----------



## Sonic77

I'll be putting my order in this week, i got approval from my wife, had to with this much quid on the line.


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> That would be 1W RMS, so that works out at 115 dB SPL.
> 
> Rob




Thanks @Rob Watts

Then It produce ~ 0,15 Amps of current 
@ 1 watts / 6.8 V / 46 Ohms , not 0,5 Amps then?


----------



## Rob Watts

jawed said:


> Hi Rob, I've been enjoying Hugo TT for just over a week now. I hardly need say that it's extraordinary
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Already done that. I designed new DSD filters, which sounded better than Hugo but they were very complex with 64 DSP cores. And I could not get the FPGA to place and route with these DSD filters and the 164,000 tap WTA filters, so there are two separate FPGA programs - PCM+ (164,000 taps with Hugo DSD) or DSD+ (82,000 taps with better DSD).
  
 Rob


----------



## AndrewOld

rob watts said:


> Already done that. I designed new DSD filters, which sounded better than Hugo but they were very complex with 64 DSP cores. And I could not get the FPGA to place and route with these DSD filters and the 164,000 tap WTA filters, so there are two separate FPGA programs - PCM+ (164,000 taps with Hugo DSD) or DSD+ (82,000 taps with better DSD).
> 
> Rob


 

 Hi Rob - I recently swapped my Hugo for a Hugo TT, and I have to say that the difference is anything but small running into active speakers, so firstly thanks (again). But I also have to say that I have pretty much no interest in DSD - there are hardly any true DSD recordings - so if there is ever a way to reprogram the FPGA in the TT with more taps at the expense of DSD count me in!
  
 Happy Christmas too.


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Already done that. I designed new DSD filters, which sounded better than Hugo but they were very complex with 64 DSP cores. And I could not get the FPGA to place and route with these DSD filters and the 164,000 tap WTA filters, so there are two separate FPGA programs - PCM+ (164,000 taps with Hugo DSD) or DSD+ (82,000 taps with better DSD).
> 
> Rob




And what type FPGA are you using for the Mojo ?


----------



## joeexp

beolab said:


> Any which FPGA are you using for the Mojo then?


 

 +1  - How is the mojo different from the Hugos??


----------



## Jawed

rob watts said:


> jawed said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Rob, I've been enjoying Hugo TT for just over a week now. I hardly need say that it's extraordinary
> ...



Are you saying that there will be two variants of DAVE: PCM+ and DSD+? Or, does it self-program the FPGA into either PCM+ or DSD+ modes?

I was actually enquiring about a version of Hugo with DSD functionality deleted entirely.

Is it too early to try to sell a new DAC without DSD capability?


----------



## highendhifi

I also don't quite understand the end result-if I wanted to take advantage of those taps, could I leave Dave in PCM or does it auto convert to the DSD? I just don't know enough about the technicalities here. Like Jawed though, DSD files have done little for me sonically.


----------



## audiobill

I believe that Rob stated in an earlier post that if you leave DAVE in PCM+ mode it will play PCM in its best form along with decimated DSD using a simplified smaller version of the DSD software. You will also have the option to select DSD+ which will decode DSD files at their best without decimation, but in that setting PCM decoding will then be compromised. There was not enough space to support PCM+ and DSD+ simultaneously. I'm sure Rob will correct me if I'm wrong, or clarify further.


----------



## wisnon

highendhifi said:


> I also don't quite understand the end result-if I wanted to take advantage of those taps, could I leave Dave in PCM or does it auto convert to the DSD? I just don't know enough about the technicalities here. Like Jawed though, DSD files have done little for me sonically.


 
 Dave will have a switch where you can freely select the filter you want, either the WTA 164K taps or the one optimized for DSD 82K tap length (half sized, but lower latency and smoother sounding for non-decimated DSD).
  
 Any format will play with either, but there is a clear recommendation.


----------



## wisnon

andrewold said:


> Hi Rob - I recently swapped my Hugo for a Hugo TT, and I have to say that the difference is anything but small running into active speakers, so firstly thanks (again). But I also have to say that I have pretty much no interest in DSD - there are hardly any true DSD recordings - so if there is ever a way to reprogram the FPGA in the TT with more taps at the expense of DSD count me in!
> 
> Happy Christmas too.


 
 Just the opposite. I can point you to 1500 albums recorded NATIVELY in DSD (SA_CD.net has the info). Cant do the same for PCM, as the vast majority were done with a delta sigma ADC and so were DSD-ized to start with. Sure many DSD non native albums came from tape transfers or had PCM processing in the mastering stage, but not that magic 1,500 and you can lump in the tape transfers as well for another 2,000 albums, as these are almost as good as NATIVE.
  
 Chords ADC design, will hopefully be pure PCM, I assume. I know the Pacific Microsonics PM-2 is a native PCM ADC and Dac. No longer made and old ones sell for $20K.
  
 Still, a version of Hugo with ONLY PCM may save a bit of space for more taps, etc, but would require rework by Rob of an old tech product.


----------



## highendhifi

Cc





audiobill said:


> I believe that Rob stated in an earlier post that if you leave DAVE in PCM+ mode it will play PCM in its best form along with decimated DSD using a simplified smaller version of the DSD software. You will also have the option to select DSD+ which will decode DSD files at their best without decimation, but in that setting PCM decoding will then be compromised. There was not enough space to support PCM+ and DSD+ simultaneously. I'm sure Rob will correct me if I'm wrong, or clarify further.



Ah, ok, thanks. So I would use PCM+ for CD replay and the DSD+ for other files?


----------



## highendhifi

wisnon said:


> Dave will have a switch where you can freely select the filter you want, either the WTA 164K taps or the one optimized for DSD 82K tap length (half sized, but lower latency and smoother sounding for non-decimated DSD).
> 
> Any format will play with either, but there is a clear recommendation.



Thanks. I feel like Homer here with the FBI just not getting his new name but the tap number/PCM+ is the real seller? I feel so old just not getting it lol
I guess the DAVE isn't concerned with what's plugged into it, it just does its thing so the fact that redbook CD is supplying the data in my case is irrelevant?


----------



## audiobill

highendhifi said:


> Cc
> Ah, ok, thanks. So I would use PCM+ for CD replay and the DSD+ for other files?


 
 For best quality you would select PCM+ for all PCM files (includes CD replay, WAV, FLAC, etc) and DSD+ for DSD files (.dsf and .dff).


----------



## highendhifi

audiobill said:


> For best quality you would select PCM+ for all PCM files (includes CD replay, WAV, FLAC, etc) and DSD+ for DSD files (.dsf and .dff).



 Thanks audiobill!


----------



## Whazzzup

well made to order here in canada, 4-6 week delivery and a whopping 17500 can doll just for dave, no base. good thing sold the cottage


----------



## ChordElectronics

daveredref-iii said:


> These must be very exciting times for the Chord business, (employees and management alike). With the release of Hugo the company expanded their client footprint hugely. They have followed up quite quickly with Hugo TT, 2 Qute, Dave, Mojo and soon to release Chord ADC's. Hugo, Mojo and ADC's are completely new markets. It is a great business story. I just hope Chord are able to maintain their well deserved reputation for bullet proof build quality. Quality standards are the hard bit for any fast growing company. I wish them every success. UK knowhow selling to the world.


 

 On behalf of everyone at Chord, thank you Dave! Don't you worry, we won't be sacrificing any of our quality standards - we'll still be Chord no matter what happens. I hope that you have a very happy Wednesday.


----------



## ecwl

whazzzup said:


> well made to order here in canada, 4-6 week delivery and a whopping 17500 can doll just for dave, no base. good thing sold the cottage


 

 I heard a rumor that the North American distributor is setting a rule that Chord Hugo dealers are not going to be automatic dealers for Chord Dave. The dealers have to order a minimum of 2 Chord Dave's in order to be able to be the official dealer for Chord Dave (which isn't unreasonable as most dealers want a version as demo). So in large markets, I'm sure the dealer can just pre-order as many as people want. But in smaller markets, most dealers would need to order 2 at once which may be on the expensive side. I'm not sure how Chord is going to fulfill demand quickly based on that rule. But then rumors are rumors. May not even be true.
  
 Cottages are over-rated anyway. Good thing you sold the cottage at market high as there is probably a housing bubble all over Canada.


----------



## Sonic77

Just put my order in but won't receive until January 2016


----------



## Hiyono

I put my order back in early October.  Still no idea when I'll be getting it.


----------



## Sonic77

hiyono said:


> I put my order back in early October.  Still no idea when I'll be getting it.


 

 I was told first batch goes out mid December and second batch goes out in January 2016, in North America that is, I don't know about anywhere else in the world, what the time line will be there, that is what I was told today.


----------



## Hiyono

sonic77 said:


> I was told first batch goes out mid December and second batch goes out in January 2016, in North America that is, I don't know about anywhere else in the world, what the time line will be there, that is what I was told today.


 

 Cool, Thanks for the info.


----------



## Sonic77

hiyono said:


> Cool, Thanks for the info.


 

 No problem.


----------



## Whazzzup

Looking forward to some reviews then.


----------



## Sonic77

whazzzup said:


> Looking forward to some reviews then.


 

 I'll be getting my order later then others, so I'll probably just be confirming everyone else's reviews.


----------



## brightonjel

Very late to the party here, but just wanted to echo everyone's sentiments that having Rob participate to the breadth and depth that he does is hugely appreciated.  I had the pleasure both of meeting him and hearing Dave at the Audio High event recently (and thanks to Hiyono for cross posting my brief review of that evening at #567 in this thread).  From what I heard that evening, and even in the very challenging circumstances that prevail at those events, posters here who have "pre-bought" Dave won't be disappointed.  The ability of Dave to bring back depth to the hi-fi experience was very noticeable, and something I heard even before Rob's talk went into more detail, in particular about where the technology was different relative to his earlier work on Hugo and hence highlighted what he learned during its development.
  
 I will be very interested to see the results of Rob's further investigations here. Initially, I was a bit surprised that it was improving the SN ratio through adding further high-order noise shapers that seemed to be the thing that made the most difference in this area.  
  
 If you think about audio depth perception, numerous studies have shown that it's driven by the ear hearing time-delayed reflections from the original sound source interacting with the environment.  Indeed, if you sat in an anechoic chamber with one fixed and one moveable sound source, moving one source further away would just make it sound quieter, not more distant, which is not what happens in real world acoustics.  In practice, environmental reflections reach the ear both delayed and significantly attenuated, with both parameters providing clues about the acoustic in which the sounds occurred. The brain then does its own remarkable thing and creates the impression of a soundstage that we can bring to mind even with our eyes closed, one that can be intimate or expansive, studio or stadium.  But this attenuation also means that the depth cues are, therefore, akin to signal-modulated noise, heard by the ear some time after the primary signal. Therefore, I went away from Rob's talk thinking that it was his work in removing the tendency of a DAC to itself modulate the noise floor of the signal chain with the source waveform that was improving depth perception, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
  
 Of course, we live on the world of engineering here and not pure theory, so it may just be that it's in the interaction of the noise shapers with the - now - signal-independent noise floor that makes the difference; pull down the quantization noise far enough and it enables other engineering parameters to become evident.  Regardless, my speculating won't answer the question but Rob's experiments can, so I hope he will keep us in the feedback-loop as he gets closer to un-picking the complex, interwoven threads in this area.
  
 Looking forward too to hearing first impressions as people get to plug Dave into their own systems, as well as what comes back from professional reviewers once they get to do more of a comparative analysis than most of us can do from our own resources.
  
 Exciting times indeed, and thanks again, Rob, for coming to visit and spending time chatting!  As an expat Brit it's always fun to meet visitors from the UK, especially when they come with 20+ years experience in digital audio design .


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## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks for your thoughts brightonjel. I am one of those waiting to receive my Dave DAC. More than greater perceived depth of soundstage, it's the greater focus and more natural (analogue) presentation that I seek most. I rarely listen to my hifi via cans so room reflections are unavoidably a part of the hifi experience for me unfortunately. I therefore wish to hear as clear a focus in the sound generated by my Dac as possible. Hopefully Dave will raise the bar in this respect. That and an improved soundstage.

 I will of course be happy to provide my impressions here after a period of listening.


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## DaveRedRef-III

Another weakness I would like hear irradiated with the new Dave dac is 'hardness' of CD presentation. CD is still a great medium but it often sounds to me like someone has put a brick wall limiter on the recording. Obviously there is only so much Dave can do with a bad production but if I use my own chosen instrument (acoustic guitar) as an example. When I pluck or pick a string there is an impulse dynamic to it that is missing with CD delivery through all dacs playing CD that I have heard so far. In the real world it is this impulse dynamic in the sound created that can even tell me how old the strings are. New strings are unmistakeable. It's not just the harmonics they throw off. New strings have a greater ability to deliver a varied dynamic and a silky sound. I hope to hear that with Dave given Robs explanation of what is going on in Dave.


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## brightonjel

Gosh, my pleasure Dave.  It's fun to find an interesting forum where the postings don't descend into rancor within the first two pages, and being able to read Rob's posts meant I was able to get a much better handle on the points he was making about the design work inside Dave than I could from trying to remember what I heard when he presented.
  
 You will I am sure be thrilled when Dave shows up on your doorstep (which sounds a little strange ...!)  The focus is there and the overall imaging is outstanding.  (I too, rarely use headphones, but because of room size limitations listen near field in any case which largely avoids too many room interaction problems.)  I don't specifically recall hearing string instruments like a guitar, but I did grab the controls for a while and played a Scarlatti piano piece.  This brought out an excellent tone, with no blurring of the individual notes; you could hear the keys working their magic.  Very compelling, though again I'd prefer to hear it with a different amplifier to help gauge what Dave can do.
  
 Your question about "analogue" sounding is an interesting one.  I'd put it that the sound is more holistic and free-flowing, and is certainly free of the digital "spikiness", for want of a better word, that was evident when digital first came to dominate audio reproduction.  However, I don't think it sounds like an analogue arm/vinyl/pre-amp front end, which to me is a good thing.  My ideal system has an incredibly accurate front end, with amps and speakers to deliver to taste thereafter.  I've heard quite a few high-end, vinyl-based systems and with the right recording/pressing, the results can be wonderful.  However, for me that rarely goes past closely-miked jazz-type discs.  Throw a much wider range of music into the mix and now I find there's too much that gets lost for it to be an approach to hi fi that works for me.
  
 Regardless, I think you will find that your new addition to the family will bring a whole new lease of life to your existing collection of recordings, forcing you to spend many happy hours going through them all again and again, always being delighted anew!
  
 John


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## DaveRedRef-III

When I say analogue John I am referring to 'real world' music rather than vinyl. I am not looking for vinyl sound. Just a realism of natural, smooth, organic and dynamic presentation. Anyway, I am sure I will be suitably impressed. I have been buying chord and following Robs digital development for many years now.

Edit: of course the musicality, emotion must be there too. After all, isn't that what draws people to music in the first place?


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## brightonjel

Excellent - then you are in for a treat!  "Real world" - at least as far as the recording engineers allow it - is an excellent description of the native sound of Dave!


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## DaveRedRef-III

Thank you Chord for your reply to my comments in your post 793 btw


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## maximus12

Unquestionably the sound is first rate, but the elaborate 'support' is a bit over the top, and takes a good chunk of the price. Could have been more accessible and not so flashy. These people are electronic geniuses, but somewhat lacking artistically!


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## Beolab

daveredref-iii said:


> Thanks for your thoughts brightonjel. I am one of those waiting to receive my Dave DAC. More than greater perceived depth of soundstage, it's the greater focus and more natural (analogue) presentation that I seek most. I rarely listen to my hifi via cans so room reflections are unavoidably a part of the hifi experience for me unfortunately. I therefore wish to hear as clear a focus in the sound generated by my Dac as possible. Hopefully Dave will raise the bar in this respect. That and an improved soundstage.
> 
> I will of course be happy to provide my impressions here after a period of listening.




OT: 

If you want to get rid of your room reflections your answer to this is our new upcoming and worlds most advanced speaker the 
Bang & Olufsen BeoLab 90 

Almost 9 years developing with near 300 people involved in the project: 

http://forum.beoworld.org/forums/p/17334/151442.aspx#151442


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## Beolab

I hope my DAVE will arrive before Christmas, but i do not have so high expectations on that one ;(

:santa_tone1::santa_tone1:


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## DaveRedRef-III

May give them a listen beolab but if Rob would just build a 64 bit floating point 5 band mastering eq into the dac - job done. I could then stick with my Sonus Fabers.

Tbh I listen fairly near field like John but I am obsessive and always listen for reflections. A digital parametric mastering eq would be a simple solution imo. That would be my solution at least

Of course that would rule out native DSD ........but I wouldn't be shedding any tears.


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## DaveRedRef-III

Maximus
I agree the cradle is expensive but I rather suspect Dave may have some serious reviewers describing it as an audiophile bargain given the price of the competition.


----------



## Beolab

daveredref-iii said:


> May give them a listen beolab but if Rob would just build a 64 bit floating point 5 band mastering eq into the dac - job done. I could then stick with my Sonus Fabers.
> 
> Tbh I listen fairly near field like John but I am obsessive and always listen for reflections. A digital parametric mastering eq would be a simple solution imo. That would be my solution at least
> 
> Of course that would rule out native DSD ........but I wouldn't be shedding any tears.




I dont see how a digital EQ can get rid of the reflections but if you feel happy about it, its fine with me   

The BeoLab 90 with 18 woofers and 8200 watts of amps have a Beam array where you can control the beam sweet spot through an App and the 360 degree speaker control the refections perfect so the room acoustics doesn't matter as much any more. 

Does who have listened to it describe it as the most holographic real world sound they have ever heard. 

Whe received them the 10th December and the streamer will be the Arrender connected direct digitally to them.  

Will also connect the DAVE to them and see what happens  

Take a look at this seminar about the technologies in this new ground breaking £50.000 Beolab 90 speaker . 

http://youtu.be/yC0hjRHCYs0


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## DaveRedRef-III

I look forward to reading a review Beolab.

Regarding reflections, all solutions that I have read about seem to map the booms and prominent reflections at their frequency and then subtract the volume in each prominent frequency band. A parametric eq can do a similar job on a subtractive basis. Of course it is still a bit of a fudge and acoustic room treatment is the best solution.

Talking about speakers,I was mightily impressed by the flat response of the Kef Blade Two reviewed by Stereophile. Check out the measurements

http://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-blade-two-loudspeaker-measurements#y4qmKjQqrj9mXSfY.97

I thought the review was a bit lacklustre but if flat response were the holy grail of speaker design then this speaker would be right up there with the absolute best. Only problem is the room you put it in will always have a say in the output.


----------



## rkt31

I am no expert but for accurately portraying the stereo sound image, one need two point sound source. bigger the source size ( multiple drivers pointing in many directions ) may give the impression of more 3d like imaging which may not be accurate. I remember s chesky test track recorded by a single stereo mic. in this test a group playing different instruments travels around the mic. if the speakers are correctly toed in the group actually sound going behind you. this means if correctly toed in, only two point source are enough for accurately portraying the sound image. what u have experienced that at correct toe in the set up is almost free of room interactions and even the listening distance or sweet spot limitations. there is just life like image. but obviously the better the dac and equipments better is the positioning and stability of instruments in the soundstage.


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## rkt31

sorry for some typos as I was using a phone.


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## brightonjel

The good news here is that we can see at least another two generations of Moore's Law coming up, offering us a 4x increase in transistors per given surface area in the coming 4 to 5 years.  That should allow for room correction to be applied at higher sampling rates and with greater precision than is possible today.  I've done some experiments with HQ Player and an impulse response taken via REW, but the plusses of applying correction were outweighed by the overall sonic negatives.  Interesting, but not a solution yet for prime time, at least outside of the dedicated processor domain.
  
 Overall though, the relentless progress being made in digital signal processing has only just begun to transform the audio recording and reproduction landscape. Class D is only the beginning, a step along the path towards all kinds of interesting hybrid digital/analogue solutions.  By leveraging the digital signal, amplifier designers now have full, complete and accurate information on what the signal will be doing in the coming milliseconds.  This allows time to adjust voltage supply rails, bias settings, even output filter parameters, all with the goal of optimizing the amplifier for the signal it is about to be called upon to reproduce.  Further, we can now see a way to have the amplifier's output characteristics be tuned to the demands of the load  i.e. loudspeaker - again based on what it's about to send in way of a signal.  Today, amplifiers have to be compromised at the output, designed to drive a whole slew of different loads, resistive and reactive, and hence able to cope with a raft of different loudspeaker designs.  Meanwhile, even today speaker engineers are now co-locating Class D dedicated amps directly with the specific drive units they can be matched to, but this is expensive and complex (e.g. Meridian, B&O, and others using it just for the low-bass element.)  Suppose, though, you could download into your amp a digital speaker profile from the manufacturer that captures the frequency response, resistance and phase angle with frequency, and in real-time adjust the amplifier output to match?  Further, we can think about then providing immediate, real-time feedback via a wireless lapel mic. of the signal being received at the ear.  Who knows what this kind of fast-feedback could do for loudspeaker adjustment, room tuning, etc.  The possibilities are endless.
  
 Folks, the digital fun has only just begun!
  
 John


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I believe Devialet have started down a related path in order to get the best out of individual speaker models and received good reviews John. As you say, we have only just started down that road.

Devialet have mapped 558 different speakers so far for their amps via their SAM technology.
http://en.devialet.com/expert/#discover


----------



## Mavwong

Guess who's hands is this in the pics? Lolz. These hands are freezing cold as I type now as the room at parkroyal Singapore are like winter in London. 

Just have a lengthy good chat with Rob the guy. Friendly guy with great wisdom and knowledge. 

I not posting review yet just impression later. But I am now much poorer man than I was 2hours ago.


----------



## TokenGesture

mavwong said:


> Guess who's hands is this in the pics? Lolz. These hands are freezing cold as I type now as the room at parkroyal Singapore are like winter in London.
> 
> Just have a lengthy good chat with Rob the guy. Friendly guy with great wisdom and knowledge.
> 
> I not posting review yet just impression later. But I am now much poorer man than I was 2hours ago.


 
  

 But richer in the soul


----------



## highendhifi

tokengesture said:


> But richer in the soul



Lol exactly!
Looking forward to your thoughts and experience of Dave


----------



## bmichels

mavwong said:


> Guess who's hands is this in the pics? Lolz. These hands are freezing cold as I type now as the room at parkroyal Singapore are like winter in London.
> 
> Just have a lengthy good chat with Rob the guy. Friendly guy with great wisdom and knowledge.
> 
> I not posting review yet just impression later. But I am now much poorer man than I was 2hours ago.


 
  
  
 Happy man !   I am indeed myself waiting to test the DAVE ( with my HE1000 Directly connected to DAVE's headphone out) before I decide to plunge for a TotalDAC !


----------



## Christer

If I had known  earlier that this show was going to be at Park Royal this weekend , I definitely  would have booked my flights a bit differently from what I am now  stuck with .
 Regarding your being poorer than a few hours ago, are you  referring to the room-rates at Park Royal or did you just buy  the DAVE?
 As I remember it last time I stayed there, room-rates were  quite ok for Singapore and the location near Clark Quay.
 Is that your pair of HE 1000 next to the  DAVE too?
 If so do let me know how they sounded via DAVE.
 I have only listened to HE1000 via Hugo and  no other dac amp combo and I was  quite impressed by some of what I heard. But there were also things I think my trusted old HD 800 do better especially air ,depth  and soundstage compared to the new HE 1000 I auditioned in Singapore a few weeks ago.
 HE 1000 also seemed to have more  problems with keeping  very dense passages , heavily scored parts, clear and transparent on some symphonic works I played compared to HD 800 which sort of takes a step back and allows things to unfold in an acoustic space where the recording has captured it.
 I don't know if that was a problem related to the headphones or possibly  HUGO not  quite up to the job of driving them ?
 But string sound  both  solo violin and tutti was" Oh So Sweet".
 Well at least one of the shops at the Adelphi said they had DAVE on order so hopefully next time I am in town I will be able to audition it too.
 Or at Singapore Can Jam in Februari.
 Apart from via headphones I'd love to hear how DAVE  sounds via the Gryphon Pendragon speakers they have at Reference Audio  at the Adelphi.
 PS. Air Con is adjustable in your room.


----------



## Mavwong

ok, I started with using my own Hugo source by my iphone5splus in airplane mode. Using well burn in HE1000.
  
 Impression with the HE1000 was very positive, well in line with what others had review, so I won't cover HE1000 anymore.
  
 As with how iphone as source sound, if anyone use iphone as source you would know its not the best source (256Kbps AAC from itune). With hugo, the base line is little muddy, separation even though is good with Hugo, it's miles ahead with Dave! The rest of the sound signature is not much different from Hugo. Dave is everything better than Hugo. To me it's separation and depth is most obvious. Even I listen at 0dB everything still in place (not that I can listen at 0dB for long, it's the max I could go for short term listening and to test at loud vol could the Dave handle HE1000).
  
 You can't hear the depth on every recording. Most are record at near field. Just pick any live concert recording and you will know what I mean. You are basically standing in front of the stage with the singer facing the crowd and audience cheering for you, this is that good in reproduce live recording.
  
 That said, how come iphone as source sounded so bad while Dave is completely different? Rob explain its the better Galvanic iso USB is the reason, But! I heard the Hugo TT before with the same Galvanic iso USB port and it didn't sounded as good. And that's why I bought the Hugo not the TT when I audit them together in shop fed by same iphone. I will let Rob to explain more if there's something that we don't know.
  
 when I audit a DAC, I do care how well a DAC USB sounded as I do not want to spin CD. I use a optimize passive cool PC as my music server. So a good USB port is a must for me. That said, Dave USB input is much better than Hugo. Bass line is now much control with texture, vocal is clear (as many review HE1000 vocal don't sound meaty, with LCD4 yes it is), high is extended yet not cold and piercing.
  
 Many people ask whether Dave is musical, this part I can't say for sure, cos I have not setup the Dave with proper source. But if you find Hugo musical, you are feeding it right and I am very confident Dave will be as musical if not beat the Hugo hands down. Well, I can make the Auralic Vega sound musical and involving even with exact clock setting and filter 1, I have confident Dave will be much better 
  
 Oh, 1 more thing. Those who prefer XLR, good news is the positive rail is the same as single ended, just the negative rail is additional circuit and comes from positive. Not using transformer as some designer preferred. So I would say the XLR is as good as single ended. Sorry Rob, I know you prefer single ended lolz 
  
 I will be also building my own cable for HE1000, using mundrof silver gold solid core and silver plated CU wires that plug direct at the back of Dave. Till then I will report back my finding again.


----------



## bmichels

mavwong said:


> I will be also building my own cable for HE1000, using mundrof silver gold solid core and silver plated CU wires that plug direct at the back of Dave. Till then I will report back my finding again.


 
  
*something like this... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  ? *  (this one is used for HE1000 -> TotalDAC :  2x female 3pins XLR)


----------



## Mavwong

Hi Chris,
 It's the Parkroyal at Kitchener road near Little India. I am local so I don't have to spend air ticket and room so you can say I save on that lolz.
  
 Being poorer of course it's due to Dave and HE1000! No that's not my HE1000, it's the demo set by AV1.
  
 Well, I agree that complex passage is hard to handle with Hugo but I am feeding with my iphone so that's is almost expected. Even with HD600 I observed the same thing at high volume setting.
  
 As for HD800, I must say its not my cup of tea at all, it just sounded thin and bass has no texture on it. And the air produce by HD800 is too artificial for me. (HD800 fan don't hit me, just I am not too happy ex owner) I am die hard all round Head phone hunter. I own HD800, Beyer T1, Audeze LCD2 v2 before, sold them all and keep only HD600 till HE1000 comes today. I did audit the LCD4 today, too bad it's virgin set, the sound just haven't open up at all.


----------



## Sonic77

mavwong said:


> Guess who's hands is this in the pics? Lolz. These hands are freezing cold as I type now as the room at parkroyal Singapore are like winter in London.
> 
> Just have a lengthy good chat with Rob the guy. Friendly guy with great wisdom and knowledge.
> 
> I not posting review yet just impression later. But I am now much poorer man than I was 2hours ago.


 

 Looking forward to your impressions.


----------



## Christer

Hello Mavwong, and thanks for your reponse.
 I would have turned up at the wrong hotel.
 But I am actually still in Sri Lanka.I am  flying to KL tomorrow night.
 Maybe I mixed up shops a bit too? Is AV1 the shop next to Jaben at the Adelphi? If so the HE 1000 pair in your picture was probably the set I auditioned a few weeks ago.
 They already had Mojo in stock, that little thing was about half the size of my HUGO. And they said they had DAVE on order too.
 Anyway let us know how  your HE1000 and Dave sound together once you've got  your cabling done.
 I am still a little  bit suspicious that  the  new pair of HE 1000 could be behind the slight confusion/congestion  I heard on massive tutti passages of classical works I have heard both live and at sessions playback and both via my electrostatic speakers and 500 watts per channel amplification. No congestion then. And also a lot via my HD 800 which sound a bit clearer and more  open on such tracks than the brand new HE 1000 did  in the shop.
 I have also re-cabled my HD 800 in Singapore, with good results.
 And I have no problem at all with the soundstage of my HD 800. It is in fact one of the best most natural and realistic soundstages I have heard via any headphone.
 AKG 1000 or my old electrostatic Jecklin Floats are other contenders for natural soundstage from headphones on well made recordings, where there is actually a real soundstage. On many modern multimic'd  recordings there is in fact none  it is  multi mono too often,and HD 800 reveals that all too well.
 Several classical recording companies use HD 800 as monitoring headphones at sessions.Others still use the HD 600 and for some BIS recordings and 2L DXD  recordings  HD 800 and  Stax electrostatics are used.It was actually Morten Lindberg  of 2L who  first introduced me to HD 800 at sessions in Norway.
 I  also never use the channel mix settings on my HUGO on classical music.
 I have tried it but  things turn artificial in a way I don't like.
 If first violins sit on the left side of the stage and the second on the right, that is the way I want ot hear them.
 Well recorded classical albums like most from Channel Classics or BIS  Rachmaninov recordings  with the SSO from The Esplanade for example, sound very much like they do at sessions and in the hall via HUGO and HD 800 to my ears.
 But I would love to hear how they and many others sound via DAVE and HE 1000.
 Finally if you know a shop that already has or will get DAVE in stock soon  please let me know.
 In case Rob knows who will stock DAVE in KL I would like to know that too if possible.
 Cheers Chris


----------



## Whazzzup

Throw out a warning concerning he 1000 and clamping power of conectors to the cans. Folks that have upgraded cables that offer more substance and weight, find that the connections come loose. They have yet to find a solution, if you stick with stock cables, seems to be ok


----------



## Beolab

I think it is a little strange that we don't have any real amateur / professional longer review yet? 

I know it is just pre-units out and it is hard to judge whats better with the DAVE against the rivals like MSB and Total DAC , but i know some people sitting on listening impressions but they have just scraped on the surface with short comments on the difference to the Hugo that i feel a little remarkable, so my quest is to wright a little longer sound impressions review in detail from you who have listen to the DAVE .


----------



## bmichels

beolab said:


> I think it is a little strange that we don't have any real amateur / professional longer review yet?
> 
> I know it is just pre-units out and it is hard to judge whats better with the DAVE against the rivals like MSB and Total DAC , but i know some people sitting on listening impressions but they have just scraped on the surface with short comments on the difference to the Hugo that i feel a little remarkable, so my quest is to wright a little longer sound impressions review in detail from you who have listen to the DAVE .


 
  
 +111


----------



## PANURUS

Demo the 5 and 6 december .
  
 http://widescreenaudio.be/chord/
  
 it will be possible to compare Mojo, Hugo TT and Dave.


----------



## Sonic77

panurus said:


> Demo the 5 and 6 december .
> 
> http://widescreenaudio.be/chord/
> 
> it will be possible to compare Mojo, Hugo TT and Dave.


That is in Belgium, no excuses bmichels


----------



## Rob Watts

brightonjel said:


> Very late to the party here, but just wanted to echo everyone's sentiments that having Rob participate to the breadth and depth that he does is hugely appreciated.  I had the pleasure both of meeting him and hearing Dave at the Audio High event recently (and thanks to Hiyono for cross posting my brief review of that evening at #567 in this thread).  From what I heard that evening, and even in the very challenging circumstances that prevail at those events, posters here who have "pre-bought" Dave won't be disappointed.  The ability of Dave to bring back depth to the hi-fi experience was very noticeable, and something I heard even before Rob's talk went into more detail, in particular about where the technology was different relative to his earlier work on Hugo and hence highlighted what he learned during its development.
> 
> I will be very interested to see the results of Rob's further investigations here. Initially, I was a bit surprised that it was improving the SN ratio through adding further high-order noise shapers that seemed to be the thing that made the most difference in this area.
> 
> ...


 
 Depth perception is indeed mostly down to the reverberant signal to direct sound signal ratio. But another important cue is due to HF absorption of the air, so brighter sounding sounds are perceived as closer. Quite how the brain determines that the frequency response of signal is degraded I don't know; perhaps the brain subtracts the frequency response of  reverberant to direct to get a another depth cure, or perhaps its simply bright sounds is inferred as being closer. 
  
 For sure, if the reverberant signal is attenuated or distorted with respect to the larger direct signal then depth perception suffers. Indeed, in all of my career of listening and then explaining the results of listening tests, small signal non-linearity is the only factor that I have correlated with depth perception. With noise shapers you get distortion of very small signals, in that signals below the noise shaper noise floor are lost and signals that approach the noise shaper noise floor have reduced amplitude. This is why fundamental linearity measurements are important, as they show the amplitude of small signals changing with level. Using FFT's with the result calibrated at -60.000 dB, then re run the test at -120 dB you check that the level is actually -120.000 dB (with results adjusted for noise). Using my Pulse Array DAC's you get pretty much perfect results (no consistent error). Conventional delta sigma have measurable errors, R2R DAC's have even more, as its impossible to match resistors accurately enough.
  
 In the bad old days, when my designs had significant fundamental linearity errors, improving this problem did lead to better depth perception. Moreover, when I used to design cables in the 80's, one could always hear a correlation between conductor purity, metal surface oxides and depth perception. In this case, the oxides in metal to metal interfaces (crystal to crystal inside the wire and contact to contact) create small signal non linearities, with resistance being a tiny bit higher for small signals than larger signals. But although it was easy to hear depth being degraded, you could never measure this distortion.
  
 Before the Dave project, my target for noise shapers was better than 200 dB distortion and noise performance. that's around 1000 times more capable than high end noise shapers. But with Dave I had ten times more gate capacity than ever before; also whilst listening to different noise shapers when developing Hugo I could hear large changes in depth perception. This indicated that my assumption that 200 dB was good enough was not correct.
  
 At this stage I should indicate that there are actually two entirely different distortion mechanisms that are important to noise shaper designs (there are other things but this is the most important). These are:
  
 1. Noise floor modulation. This is where the noise floor modulates with signal level - so large signals give greater noise than small signals. The brain is remarkably sensitive to this problem, and can easily hear unmeasurably small levels; it perceives it as smoothness or warmth to the sound when the problem gets smaller. With gross noise floor modulation you hear it as grain in the treble. Now all DAC's (except mine) have very large and measurable noise floor modulation, which explains why they sound harder (they normally add some 2nd harmonic to fatten up the sound to hid the innate lack of warmth). Additionally, reducing noise floor modulation improves instrument separation and focus, and you reduce the loudest instrument taking your attention problem.
  
 2. Fundamental linearity - how accurately small signals are reproduced (small signal linearity). Now this only affects depth perception, it does not do anything else. And I have not come up with any change in depth that wasn't explained by small signal linearity.
  
 Now a noise shaper has both problems - making a better noise shaper with say 220 dB performance than 200 dB will have lower noise floor modulation and better small signal linearity.
  
 So when I designed a 220 dB noise shaper and listened to it, I could easily hear better depth - and maybe a bit smoother. So better than 200 dB is a good rule of thumb for noise floor modulation, but certainly not for depth. Indeed, over a 90 day period I constantly improved the noise shapers and came to the absolutely remarkable and frankly amazing conclusion that there was no limit to how good the noise shaper needs to be in order to resolve depth perception. I ended up with an very complex 17th order noise shaper that had 350 dB performance. 
  
 With 90 days of work and getting an improvement every day in depth, I could hear now a cavernous depth perception. This is very exciting, as its long been a major problem of mine that one can hear depth so accurately in real life, but high end audio sounds flat as a pancake. Listen to a real organ and choir in a cathedral - if you are 100 feet away and shut your eyes, it sounds uncannily 100 feet away. I am now starting to get something like that depth perception with loudspeakers - but I guess the weak link now is the ADC, which is my next design challenge.
  
 Now when I first got to 350 dB performance (that's the best I can do with available FPGA and flip flop speed) I was simply amazed that the brain was so sensitive. How can it detect such small errors? Perhaps its down to something else, and the noise shaper number is merely a proxy for something else going on in the analogue domain. But recently (a month ago) I upgraded internal digital (no analogue consequences at all) noise shapers within Dave from 220 dB to 350 dB - and lo and behold depth did get much better. So that suggests that the brain really is sensitive to absolutely no error for small signals. But it still perplexes me that minute effects can be so easy to hear.
  
 But this brings me full circle. I have always been puzzled that cable small signal non linearity was never measurable and if its true that -350 dB performance is necessary then this proves why we can't measure cable effects - they are simply too small, and the brain is just too sensitive.
  
 Funny that work in noise shapers can solve a puzzle with metal purity with wires...
  
 Rob


----------



## jcx

could you please list (all dozen?, maybe?) commercial music digital releases that actually capture "natural depth cues" in the recording stage and didn't modify, mangle, or just paint it on to the usual multiple close miced feeds in the mastering?


----------



## Kakki

rob watts said:


> Now when I first got to 350 dB performance (that's the best I can do with available FPGA and flip flop speed) I was simply amazed that the brain was so sensitive. How can it detect such small errors? Perhaps its down to something else, and the noise shaper number is merely a proxy for something else going on in the analogue domain. But recently (a month ago) I upgraded internal digital (no analogue consequences at all) noise shapers within Dave from 220 dB to 350 dB - and lo and behold depth did get much better. So that suggests that the brain really is sensitive to absolutely no error for small signals. But it still perplexes me that minute effects can be so easy to hear.


 
  
 Rob, I heard the Dave proto-type in Tokyo at the end of Sept. The Dave proto-type already had unbelievable deep sound stage and sounded super real... 
 So now, the production model is even more enhanced with the sound-stage depth? Any other updated points?
  
 Really looking forward to hearing the production model... hopefully soon!


----------



## bmichels

Rob,
  
 based on some tests it seems that the *HifiMan HE1000 lack some authority from the front Headphone out, but... it sound VERY good from the XLR on the back* when using this adapter cable.
  
 But... then the DAVE gets very hot. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 --> Does this usage of a 35 ohms headphone connected on the XLR line out (like it is 100% OK to do with TotalDAC) may cause some damage to DAVE ?  What is the Impedence of those XLR line out ?


----------



## Beolab

bmichels said:


> Rob,
> 
> based on some tests it seems that the HifiMan HE1000 lack some authority from the front Headphone out, but... it sound VERY good from the XLR on the back when using this adapter cable.
> 
> ...




This is a very good question, because you want the best possible sound, and i hope that the final edition of the DAVE, @Rob Watts have solved this so it sounds equal btw the single ended and the balanced output.


----------



## brightonjel

rob watts said:


> Depth perception is indeed mostly down to the reverberant signal to direct sound signal ratio. But another important cue is due to HF absorption of the air, so brighter sounding sounds are perceived as closer. Quite how the brain determines that the frequency response of signal is degraded I don't know; perhaps the brain subtracts the frequency response of  reverberant to direct to get a another depth cure, or perhaps its simply bright sounds is inferred as being closer.
> 
> For sure, if the reverberant signal is attenuated or distorted with respect to the larger direct signal then depth perception suffers. Indeed, in all of my career of listening and then explaining the results of listening tests, small signal non-linearity is the only factor that I have correlated with depth perception. With noise shapers you get distortion of very small signals, in that signals below the noise shaper noise floor are lost and signals that approach the noise shaper noise floor have reduced amplitude. This is why fundamental linearity measurements are important, as they show the amplitude of small signals changing with level. Using FFT's with the result calibrated at -60.000 dB, then re run the test at -120 dB you check that the level is actually -120.000 dB (with results adjusted for noise). Using my Pulse Array DAC's you get pretty much perfect results (no consistent error). Conventional delta sigma have measurable errors, R2R DAC's have even more, as its impossible to match resistors accurately enough.
> 
> ...


 
 Funny ... but in a fascinating sort of way!
  
 The internal mechanisms by which the brain interprets incoming sounds must be a topic barely scratched-at as yet, but we can hope that neuro-imaging studies will change this over time.  Even so, you can see, at least from an evolutionary standpoint, that paying closer attention to high-frequency sounds might make sense: better by far to err on the side of caution and assume that the - HF-rich - rustling of the undergrowth marking the path of a hungry lion is perhaps slightly closer than it is!  If nothing else it buys us lardy & slow homo sapiens fractionally more time to sort out what to do about it, which would up the survival rate in the long haul.
  
 I think your work on small-signal linearity also points towards answers to a whole host of other questions, not the least of which might be "how do high-end vinyl systems manage to deliver a good sense of scale & depth, despite all of the inherent noise involved in analogue reproduction?"  High quality record reproduction is of course largely grounded on developing accurate, small-signal amplifiers exhibiting excellent linearity.  When I was an electronics engineer (some 35 years ago  ) the importance of phono pre-amplifier linearity was well understood, even if all the means of delivering it not quite so much! Hopefully, now the importance of this in the reproduction chain is starting to be recognized, more work will also go into addressing it as part of the recording process, where I suspect digitization techniques are still somewhat lacking in comparison? (So wishing you every possible success with the new A/D converter work BTW!)  That so many CDs were transcribed from the analogue domain while the technology was in its infancy must itself cause a whole raft of associated problems.
  
 Right.  Back to checking behind the sofa to see if I can find enough quarters to make $13k ....


----------



## Mavwong

I am very interested to know as well, it will be a shame if I need a separate balance amp to drive my soon to come HEK. And it's already well known that planner did gets better driving with balance. Hack, even my HD600 sound better with balance.
  
  
  
 Quote:


bmichels said:


> Rob,
> 
> based on some tests it seems that the *HifiMan HE1000 lack some authority from the front Headphone out, but... it sound VERY good from the XLR on the back* when using this adapter cable.
> 
> ...


----------



## Beolab

This most be fixed so the DAVE not get overheated ;(


----------



## Rob Watts

jcx said:


> could you please list (all dozen?, maybe?) commercial music digital releases that actually capture "natural depth cues" in the recording stage and didn't modify, mangle, or just paint it on to the usual multiple close miced feeds in the mastering?


 
 Unfortunately I don't know how an individual recording is put together. Either there is a lot of depth on the recording, or there is none - Nora Jones is flat, but that's OK, it just sounds like she is in your room and this is the intention of the recording engineer. But some studio recordings have tremendous depth, and its all done with reverb. Most classical have good depth, some exceptional. I must say film and TV sounds fantastic, the recordings have great spatial layering - notably Game of Thrones, Walking Dead, The leftovers (music for this is excellent too).
  
 I don't think it matters if the depth is "natural" or close miked with mix down from ambient mikes or totally reverb added - they all can work if done carefully.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

kakki said:


> Rob, I heard the Dave proto-type in Tokyo at the end of Sept. The Dave proto-type already had unbelievable deep sound stage and sounded super real...
> So now, the production model is even more enhanced with the sound-stage depth? Any other updated points?
> 
> Really looking forward to hearing the production model... hopefully soon!


 
 Yes depth is about 1/3 deeper now, and its a bit smoother, with better detail resolution. But upgrading the internal noise shapers was the only audio change I did; the rest of the work was control issues.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

bmichels said:


> Rob,
> 
> based on some tests it seems that the *HifiMan HE1000 lack some authority from the front Headphone out, but... it sound VERY good from the XLR on the back* when using this adapter cable.
> 
> ...


 
 Categorically do not do this. The balanced drive has insufficient current drive and is intended to drive power amps only.
  
 Dave can drive the HE1000 with ease - they are rated at 90 dB 1mW 33 ohms. Dave will give 1.4W into 33 ohms that translates to ear damaging 121 dB SPL with the HE1000.
  
 Moreover distortion is virtually identical with a 33 ohm load - that is hundreds or thousands of times smaller than the best headphone amps. Unless you like the sound of distortion, and prefer reduced transparency, and no depth, don't use an external amp.
  
 Rob


----------



## Sonic77

rob watts said:


> Yes depth is about 1/3 deeper now, and its a bit smoother, with better detail resolution. But upgrading the internal noise shapers was the only audio change I did; the rest of the work was control issues.
> 
> Rob


 

 Well I'm excited! Can't wait to get this DAVE dac in my system.
 Any idea when shipping starts?


----------



## bmichels

rob watts said:


> Dave can drive the HE1000 with ease - they are rated at 90 dB 1mW 33 ohms. Dave will give 1.4W into 33 ohms that translates to ear damaging 121 dB SPL with the HE1000
> 
> Rob




Agreed, DAVE could play the HE1000 loud


----------



## Mavwong

Oh man, come on Rob, just create the negative rail of the headphone out won't be too difiicult for this 13K USD DAC will it? I don't want to use another amp too as it will defeat the purpose of your highly transparent DAC!
  
  
  
 Quote:


rob watts said:


> Categorically do not do this. The balanced drive has insufficient current drive and is intended to drive power amps only.
> 
> Dave can drive the HE1000 with ease - they are rated at 90 dB 1mW 33 ohms. Dave will give 1.4W into 33 ohms that translates to ear damaging 121 dB SPL with the HE1000.
> 
> ...


----------



## rkt31

not expert but, as told by rob already that xlr out is for driving power amps which have impedance in kilo ohms and not in few ohms like in headphones. so obviously attaching headphones would stress the xlr out and may cause damage in long run to the circuitry.  why not use rca out instead of xlr out for headphones as that will also have the advantage of separate ground for left and right channel.


----------



## lovethatsound

lovethatsound said:


> well i don't think anyone should complain about chord taking their time to get dave absolutely right for the market.And on that note Rob i really think you and chord should really think about putting daul AES on dave and a balanced headphone output on dave,doing this would please alot more people than you could imagine,and most likely increase sales of dave as a 1 box solution for headphone users and blu transport users as well,don't just make dave great make it perfect . take your time rob (chord)get it right.


As you can see Mavwoug and bmichels i pointed this out a while ago in the above post.


----------



## Sonic77

hmmmmm.....
 you all know the Dave Dac is about to be released, right? And you know all the retooling that would be required to add an xlr port right? Plus who knows what other circuit design changes that need to be accomplished, right? I think you all do.
 You might not realize this, but this is starting to sound trollish, right when this dac is about to be released.


----------



## JaZZ

I agree. People are starting to go overboard with their individual wishes – which are moreover based on unscientific half-knowledge.
  
 If Rob Watts would have considered a balanced headphone output a useful addition on this noncompromizing DAC/amp, I'm sure he would have added it.


----------



## lovethatsound

sonic77 said:


> hmmmmm.....
> you all know the Dave Dac is about to be released, right? And you know all the retooling that would be required to add an xlr port right? Plus who knows what other circuit design changes that need to be accomplished, right? I think you all do.
> You might not realize this, but this is starting to sound trollish, right when this dac is about to be released.


No one is trolling,their just pointing out something that in their opinion their headphones sound better balance.All that will happen is they'll buy another product from another company,which is a shame because chord make some great sounding DACs.I know Rob prefers single ended,but alot of people prefer balance,and just maybe manufacturers should put both on and let the customer decide.


----------



## Sonic77

lovethatsound said:


> No one is trolling,their just pointing out something that in their opinion their headphones sound better balance.All that will happen is they'll buy another product from another company,which is a shame because chord make some great sounding DACs.I know Rob prefers single ended,but alot of people prefer balance,and just maybe manufacturers should put both on and let the customer decide.



Let the customers decide, thing is this design has been out there for awhile now, why all the last minute requests? Maybe the next version, if there is one will have that feature.


----------



## JaZZ

lovethatsound said:


> No one is trolling,their just pointing out something that in their opinion their headphones sound better balance.All that will happen is they'll buy another product from another company,which is a shame because chord make some great sounding DACs.I know Rob prefers single ended,but alot of people prefer balance,and just maybe manufacturers should put both on and let the customer decide.


 
  
 You seem to acknowledge Rob's competence in terms of DAC design, but doubt his competence in terms of amplifier design. A bit illogical, if you ask me. Apparently he can build single-ended headphone-output stages that sound better than balanced ones (not least related to the puristic signal-path concept), whereas other manufacturers/designers choose the opposite path with balanced drives that sound superior to their own single-ended outputs. I guess if you want to hear DAVE's sophisticated multi-tap DAC with –350 dB modulation noise in all its purity, the best you can do is accept Rob's single-ended solution. If you insist in balanced drive (for whatever reason), choose another brand. Nitpicking on an already finished design is a bad habit.


----------



## Beolab

bmichels said:


> Agreed, DAVE could play the HE1000 loud but... not dynamically. XLR is where the magic is !




@bmichels 

Have you had the DAVE at your home or how have you test this? 

It would be a very nice feature if you can connect to the XLR if the sound are better from that output! 

I hope Rob can fix this so we don't get a flat undynamic sound. ;(


----------



## JaZZ

I would be careful with such single reports. An output not meant for this purpose with a supposed impedance mismatch sounding «magical» makes me skeptical. Is your friend a tube lover by chance?


----------



## lovethatsound

jazz said:


> I would be careful with such single reports. An output not meant for this purpose with a supposed impedance mismatch sounding «magical» makes me skeptical. Is your friend a tube lover by chance?


JaZZ you make me skeptical lol


----------



## chordguy

rob watts said:


> Unfortunately I don't know how an individual recording is put together. Either there is a lot of depth on the recording, or there is none - Nora Jones is flat, but that's OK, it just sounds like she is in your room and this is the intention of the recording engineer. But some studio recordings have tremendous depth, and its all done with reverb. Most classical have good depth, some exceptional. I must say film and TV sounds fantastic, the recordings have great spatial layering - notably Game of Thrones, Walking Dead, The leftovers (music for this is excellent too).
> 
> I don't think it matters if the depth is "natural" or close miked with mix down from ambient mikes or totally reverb added - they all can work if done carefully.
> 
> Rob​


 
 Rob   ....  you mentioned in this post and an earlier post that Dave is great for movies.
 How would this be implemented as the standard home cinema set up would be hdmi out of a Blu-ray player into a home cinema processor, then to amps and speakers.


----------



## bmichels




----------



## robeeert1

bmichels said:


> , " ..._(DAVE) sounded good.  The sound is very open and rich, much more musical than the Hugo.  As predicted, after about an hour, the DAVE became very hot as if it was working too hard.  I'm not sure if this is safe and what might happen if the DAVE was used like this all the time...)_"


 
  
 I'm very curious how the Dave sounds. I have to test it.  I'm a little worried about the high temperature inside the DAC. Heat problem is known from DPA Dacs, which Rob designed many years ago. What about the Dave Rob, why does it become so hot? Can we run it with continuos play for 24h a day?


----------



## audiobill

robeeert1 said:


> I'm very curious how the Dave sounds. I have to test it.  I'm a little worried about the high temperature inside the DAC. Heat problem is known from DPA Dacs, which Rob designed many years ago. What about the Dave Rob, why does it become so hot? Can we run it with continuos play for 24h a day?


 
 That report was while DAVE was being used with an adapter from the XLR outputs driving headphones directly, which is the specific configuration that Rob advised to avoid since it is not designed to operate that way. He warned that it would run much too hot in that scenario, but not when connected as recommended for normal use.


----------



## Beolab

audiobill said:


> That report was while DAVE was being used with an adapter from the XLR outputs driving headphones directly, which is the specific configuration that Rob advised to avoid since it is not designed to operate that way. He warned that it would run much too hot in that scenario, but not when connected as recommended for normal use.




I can live with just using the SE output if it just sounded equally as the balanced, but i think its tuff to know that it sounds richer and more dynamic through XLR. 

So i hope the finished version will have equal sound on the outputs, because it is an SE DAC , so it can only be the higher voltage on XLR against the SE output that differ the sound.


----------



## Rob Watts

Thermals - yes Dave naturally runs warm - there is a lot of power being dissipated, and the thermal conduction from die to case via the PCB is very effective, so case temperature is the PCB temperature. A thermal measurement was done (by myself and independently by Chord). In my case I ran it at 5v RMS into 33 ohms for several hours, then measured die temperature with an infra red sensor. The power electronics had 100 deg C safety margin (that is Dave would have to get 100 deg C hotter before the power devices would destroy). The critical FPGA had a 40 deg C margin - this is not the danger level but the level for which timing closure was set, so the FPGA would have to get 40 deg C hotter before problems. There is a thermal trip with Dave, this had another 20 deg C to go.
  
 So thermals are not a problem.
  
 Driving with balanced XLRs - this would sound terrible with lots of distortion at reasonable volume levels. So if a listener prefers it that way, then fine, some like distortion. Don't buy a Dave if you like the sound of distortion.
  
 AES EBU - I have already said that this is a rubbish standard for high data rates. I contacted Matt at Chord, and there are no reports of problems using Blu with BNC cables and double data rates. The only problem that occurs is when people use poor RF cables. Replacing it with proper RF quality cables solves noise issues.
  
 Balanced headphone drive - I have already stated that this would degrade transparency, so I do not and will not do it for headphones.
  
 Rob


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> Thermals - yes Dave naturally runs warm - there is a lot of power being dissipated, and the thermal conduction from die to case via the PCB is very effective, so case temperature is the PCB temperature. A thermal measurement was done (by myself and independently by Chord). In my case I ran it at 5v RMS into 33 ohms for several hours, then measured die temperature with an infra red sensor. The power electronics had 100 deg C safety margin (that is Dave would have to get 100 deg C hotter before the power devices would destroy). The critical FPGA had a 40 deg C margin - this is not the danger level but the level for which timing closure was set, so the FPGA would have to get 40 deg C hotter before problems. There is a thermal trip with Dave, this had another 20 deg C to go.
> 
> So thermals are not a problem.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks, Rob!
  
 That makes me wonder if the reduced transparency (in the form of added distortion) be the actual sonic advantage to some with balanced headphone drive generally. I'm not insisting on that, because I don't know. After all people add amps (i.e. distortion) to Mojo, Hugo and TT to make it sound «better» (= warmer/more forgiving).
  
 I for one feel well served by Chord and their (your) sound philosophy, since I much prefer transparency and purity to spectacularity.


----------



## robeeert1

Thanx Rob for thermal explaination, all I have to do now is to compare Dave with your old SX-512 which I consider it to be the best DAC ever released.


----------



## rkt31

now the things are very clearly explained why balanced headphone drive was avoided in dave. one thing more can headphones be attached through rca out of dave ? what is the output impedance of rca out, xlr out and headphone out ? are they all different or same like in  hugo ? i currently tap rca out of hugo both for my power amp and sub through rca splitter and it works great ! can i tap rca of dave similarly ?  it would be very kind to answer my queries ! thanks in advance .


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

One key area where Dave has been continually acclaimed by those who have heard it is in the dynamics. Yet someone comes along, misuses the product (if indeed he did) and proclaims it is 'flat in the dynamics' but it is brilliant if used in a way it was not designed for. Oh and it overheats when misused! If indeed it genuinely was tested in this way (which I doubt). 
  
 Like Jazz I am becoming increasingly skeptical of some comments of late and I wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple aliases being used here too. Someone posts a ridiculous claim then someone else responds as if the ridiculous claim is now fact. I have seen this strategy over and over in many different sectors of business - When a commercial (or personal) pocket is likely to be hit there seems no level to which some people will not stoop in order to protect their position.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Hopefully the fog will clear when units start hitting the streets. Though regardless of (anticipated) rave reviews I am sure there will always be someone who will claim something else, which sells at a 5th the cost, is so much better. 
  
 Trust no-one and use your own ears would seem to be the best approach.


----------



## rkt31

rightly said DaveRedRef-III. chord electronics has totally changed the DAC with the products like hugo and mojo. others may be waiting to respond but until someone comes up with a radically different idea ( like increasing tap lengths by the use of processing power of fpga), it is very difficult to compete the chord DACs based on price performance ratio. if mojo is close to hugo ( i have not heard mojo ), it is already finishing the markets of some of the biggies of headphone amps and DACs .  persoanlly i am so happy with hugo that i think it is the single component which has improved the sound qaulity the most of my full set up. adding a better amp further lends benefits indicating how better sounding hugo is campared to many  other DACs in the market. i have already saving for the DAVE  if at all i will able to buy one some day !


----------



## rkt31

something went wrong in copying the user name !


----------



## lovethatsound

daveredref-iii said:


> One key area where Dave has been continually acclaimed by those who have heard it is in the dynamics. Yet someone comes along, misuses the product (if indeed he did) and proclaims it is 'flat in the dynamics' but it is brilliant if used in a way it was not designed for. Oh and it overheats when misused! If indeed it genuinely was tested in this way (which I doubt).
> 
> Like Jazz I am becoming increasingly skeptical of some comments of late and I wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple aliases being used here too. Someone posts a ridiculous claim then someone else responds as if the ridiculous claim is now fact. I have seen this strategy over and over in many different sectors of business - When a commercial (or personal) pocket is likely to be hit there seems no level to which some people will not stoop in order to protect their position.
> 
> ...


----------



## JaZZ

lovethatsound said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I also don't believe that there are people using mutliple aliases in this thread – that's an unnecessary suspicion.


But why do you insist on balanced drive? How do you know it's not possible to make a single-ended headphone output which is sonically superior? And why write off DAVE just because of this (lacking) feature without having heard it? I say it's an opportunity to learn something new: Not all hi-fi wisdoms deserve their spread – there are a lot of misleading half-truths and urban legends around on Head-Fi (and elsewhere). Note that the concept of balanced headphone drive is technically questionable, at least there's no clear technical/theoretical justification for it, just a subjective preference for corresponding systems allowing to switch between both modes. But it's not even unanimous and sometimes depending on the configration.

The above example of an obvious mismatch at hand which nevertheless sounded far superior to the reviewer (unfortunately deleted by bmichels) is an opportunity to rethink subjective impressions. I'm not denying that they are the final instance for judging a component or system for the individual – according to his or her sonic preferences –, but the premise that «good sound» equals «accurate sound» is fundamentally wrong. According to my observations (not least here on Head-Fi) many people like harmonic distortion. And I can understand it. It effectively helps with concealing upstream flaws, especially transducer nonlinearities, and creating synergies – whereas the «unvarnished truth» in the form of a signal close to the purity and accuracy of the original signal may sound dry, lean and uninvolving. That's the reason why people like to add amps to Chord DAC's headphone outputs and why they like tube amps in particular – the latter are prone to produce especially euphonic distortion.

Now that I've completely bowed out of this concept I'm thankful to have found a manufacturer of high-end components – Chord Electronics – supporting the puristic approach on all levels, with a minimalistic headphone output guaranteeing maximum signal accuracy. In my book DAVE is indeed an ideal 1-box solution (as it seems), given that it's a Hugo with again increased accuracy and transparency, resulting in a sonic realism unmatched so far in the right configuration – not to forget equalizing. At least that's what I'm hoping for. For people who can't renounce the conservative approach yet – like yourself, apparently –, there are a lot of alternatives around.

(There's something wrong with the formatting of Head-Fi posts.)


----------



## Sonic77

Why did bmichels delete his post? He was using the Dave dac wrong and almost damaged and over heated it?


----------



## bmichels

sonic77 said:


> Why did bmichels delete his post? He was using the Dave dac wrong and almost damaged and over heated it?


 
 I did not want to encline people to test this option that apparently could damage the DAVE (or at least is strongly NOT recommended by Chord)
 I will post on this matter again after more tests and clarification are done.  
  
 May be this XLR->Headphone option is only safe with TotalDAC and should not be used with most other DACs ?


----------



## Sonic77

I thought this thread was about Dave dac not total dac?


----------



## Beolab

sonic77 said:


> I thought this thread was about Dave dac not total dac?




This is because many find the TotalDac to be DAVEs target competitor . 

But i think and hope the DAVE can come out on the top, its an old tech Ladder R2R vs Puls Array with interpolation.


----------



## Kakki

rob watts said:


> Yes depth is about 1/3 deeper now, and its a bit smoother, with better detail resolution. But upgrading the internal noise shapers was the only audio change I did; the rest of the work was control issues.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 With more depth, smoothness, and better details!! Really looking forward to listening the production model. Thank you for your reply.


----------



## Beolab

@Rob Watts

Rob this is just a philosophical / hypothetical question i have thaught of for a couple of month now, and that is if you feel that the DAVE are superior in the digital and analog section from any other high end DACs, or if you had the oppertunity to handpick bits and solutions from other companies, have you then come up with an even better solution if your budjet where in the $100.000 like the MSB Select II or the DCS Vivaldi stack? 


Would be very intersting to here your impressions on this kind of hypothetical question.


----------



## Rob Watts

rkt31 said:


> now the things are very clearly explained why balanced headphone drive was avoided in dave. one thing more can headphones be attached through rca out of dave ? what is the output impedance of rca out, xlr out and headphone out ? are they all different or same like in  hugo ? i currently tap rca out of hugo both for my power amp and sub through rca splitter and it works great ! can i tap rca of dave similarly ?  it would be very kind to answer my queries ! thanks in advance .


 
 The RCA output is connected to the headphone - but via different relays. When Dave sees the headphone socket being used, it goes into headphone mode - shuts down the RCA and XLR, and restores the original volume setting when headphones were used last. Also cross-feed is enabled. The headphone sockets we use are as good as the RCA.
  
 Rob


----------



## robeeert1

beolab said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> Rob this is just a philosophical / hypothetical question i have thaught of for a couple of month now, and that is if you feel that the DAVE are superior in the digital and analog section from any other high end DACs, or if you had the oppertunity to handpick bits and solutions from other companies, have you then come up with an even better solution if your budjet where in the $100.000 like the MSB Select II or the DCS Vivaldi stack?


 
  
 My friend did already managed to compare Dave to DCS Vivaldi stack and the Dave was absolutly superior to DCS with detail retrieval.
  
 In his subjective opinion Dave is world's best DAC in that catagory, I suppose Total DAC would be in big troubles while comparing.
 But we will know when we get both DACs available.
  
 Better budget  - always better DAC.


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> Rob this is just a philosophical / hypothetical question i have thaught of for a couple of month now, and that is if you feel that the DAVE are superior in the digital and analog section from any other high end DACs, or if you had the oppertunity to handpick bits and solutions from other companies, have you then come up with an even better solution if your budjet where in the $100.000 like the MSB Select II or the DCS Vivaldi stack?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Clearly if I thought other solutions were better, then I would already be doing it. I have been designing DAC's for over 27 years, and designing with my own DAC technology for 22 years. That's a long time. Also, I am the only DAC designer who has designed silicon chips too, and had a very successful career on that side. Its given me a very valuable insight into the engineering problems of DAC design with silicon, as well as valuable insight into how these devices are developed.
  
 I do get to hear other DAC's at shows, and am interested in the technology. But I have not heard or seen anything that has caught my attention. And just because its 100K does not make it better - too many audiophiles listen with their wallets rather than their ears...
  
 I can say for certain that I do things that I know make a big difference to performance, and no other DAC designer does these things.
  
 I can also say for certain that Dave sets new measurement standards for DAC's at any price - unfortunately only an APX555 is capable of demonstrating that as Dave has better performance than most test gear. But as a listener how it measures is not too important, but its not appropriate for me to comment on sound quality against other products.
  
 But I will say that I have never heard a DAC sound anything like Dave, it is very different. Only you can decide whether it works for you or not.
  
 Rob


----------



## Christer

Hi Rob,
 I have two further questions regarding the DAVE. Could you let me know who will  possibly stock it here in KL? And what do you mean by cross-feed is enabled when headphones are plugged in?
 I hope it can be turned off if not wanted as on HUGO. I never use cross-feed settings on simply and realistically recorded classical material.
 With  simple recordings and binaural in particular cross-feed   will surely "rob" the recording of essential spatial cues.
 By the way when will you arrive in KL?
 I am here since yesterday. My flight from Sri Lanka was delayed for two days!
 And unless my  next flight is delayed too I am flying onwards to Thailand on the 7th.
 Anyway, this afternoon I went to the rehearsals for Saturday's and Sunday's concerts by the Malaysian  Philharmonic Orchestra and will attend both.
 You know that essential reference I am always so keen on.
 And next time here in KL, I will spend some time photographing their new resident conductor Ciarán Mcauley at work. He is a young Irish conductor who seemed very nice and has already conducted some big name orchestras.
 If I miss you and DAVE this time again I hope I will still get to audition DAVE this winter in Asia either in KL or Singapore.
 How come you are not touring Bangkok with DAVE?
 I would have expected the market for highend DACs there to be bigger than Manila?
 Cheers Chris


----------



## Rob Watts

christer said:


> Hi Rob,
> I have two further questions regarding the DAVE. Could you let me know who will  possibly stock it here in KL? And what do you mean by cross-feed is enabled when headphones are plugged in?
> I hope it can be turned off if not wanted as on HUGO. I never use crossfeed settings on simply and realistically recorded classical material.
> With  simple recordings and binaural in particular cross-feed   will surely "rob" the recording of essential spatial cues.
> ...


 
 The Malaysian distributor is:
  
*Centre Circle Audio*
 8, Ground Floor,
 Lorong Rahim Kajai 14
 Taman Tun Dr Ismail, 60000,
 Malaysia
*Range*: Chord | Chordette
*Phone*: +60 3-7728 2686
*Email*: Info@centrecircleaudio.com.my
*Website*: www.centrecircleaudio.com.my
  
 As to cross-feed I should have been a little clearer - the cross-feed control is enabled, which has a default setting of 0 (which is off). Yes I agree, cross-feed does not make sense for binaural recordings.
  
 I am in San Francisco just done an event with Audio Vision, great event. I fly back to Jakarta Indonesia for Sunday afternoon Mook show, then Malaysia on Tues 8 Dec and back to Singapore on 10 Dec again for the Mook show. Have a chat with Centre Circle Audio, I am sure we can arrange a time for you to hear the production Dave, but it sounds like you will not be available then.
  
 I will certainly be doing CanJam in Singapore, plus other trips hopefully to Thailand too. John was there recently.
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Clearly if I thought other solutions were better, then I would already be doing it. I have been designing DAC's for over 27 years, and designing with my own DAC technology for 22 years. That's a long time. Also, I am the only DAC designer who has designed silicon chips too, and had a very successful career on that side. Its given me a very valuable insight into the engineering problems of DAC design with silicon, as well as valuable insight into how these devices are developed.
> 
> I do get to hear other DAC's at shows, and am interested in the technology. But I have not heard or seen anything that has caught my attention. And just because its 100K does not make it better - too many audiophiles listen with their wallets rather than their ears...
> 
> ...




Thank you very much for you crystal clear answer! What you have achieved here is a small revolution in my opinion, and i cant wait for my DAVE to arrive, and i hope it drive my Abyss headphones with easiness, so i don't need extra amplification and ruin the fragile and sophisticated perfect sound. 

I sold my QBD76HDSD for almost 2 years ago because i felt based on the age of the QBD76 platform it has to come out a better version maybe, and and a few weeks later my dream come through when a small bird indicated that a end game QBD76 DAC follower are coming in about 7 month, so i have waited since then for over two years now, and just used my Hugo during this time, so in a short wile my "long" wait is over!  

PS: This measuring device is a remarkable thing and without it we may not have seen DAVE put out this nice tones http://apx555.ap.com/


----------



## chordguy

Rob   .......  raised a short post, no. 861, about how Dave would be implemented in a home cinema environment to use the Dave dac to decode movie and TV soundtracks   .......   but the post seems to have been missed.
  
 I'd appreciate if you could answer this one please.


----------



## Beolab

chordguy said:


> Rob   .......  raised a short post, no. 861, about how Dave would be implemented in a home cinema environment to use the Dave dac to decode movie and TV soundtracks   .......   but the post seems to have been missed.
> 
> I'd appreciate if you could answer this one please.




I cant see why you have get stuck by this ? 

You don't need a HDMI input on your DAC to listen to a DVD / SACD / Blu-Ray / DVD-A because ., 99% of the discs have a 2.0 channel mix , so its no problem to connect the DAVE through Optical Toslink or Coax S/pidf. 

But if you want to listen from a Oppo 105 with higher resolution than 16/48 khz you need to go through the HDMI HDCP , thats true, if you dont have modifyed your player so it have the ability to put out high resolution through opt / Coax. 

And Digital Set top boxes have also this feature to take the 2.0 channel downmix digital signal and output it though digital opt / coax


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> The RCA output is connected to the headphone - but via different relays. When Dave sees the headphone socket being used, it goes into headphone mode - shuts down the RCA and XLR, and restores the original volume setting when headphones were used last. Also cross-feed is enabled. The headphone sockets we use are as good as the RCA.
> 
> Rob




So it should not be any difference if you take the signal through the RCA outputs or the 
6,3 mm jack for your balanced headphones then Rob ?


----------



## Christer

Thanks for the rapid response Rob.
 I am looking forward to auditioning DAVE either here in KL or in Singapore this winter.
 PS your  : too many audiophiles listen with their wallets rather than their ears...  rings very true in my experience too.
 Chris still enjoying HUGO for its excellent  transparency and resolution on a daily basis.


----------



## chordguy

beolab said:


> I cant see why you have get stuck by this ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 With Rob quoting that Dave could be used for movies, tv soundtracks etc, I was curious to see how this was done.​
 I enjoy both music and movies and have a combined music and home cinema system.
 From your explanation it looks like Dave can only be used for stereo soundtracks, no multi channel, so movies with 5.1, 7.1 and Atmos soundtracks are out.


----------



## rkt31

obviously Dave will play 2 channel downmix. lot many people like me use stereo set up for movies too due to space limitations or WAF. I use Hugo for movies feeding 2 channel downmix lpcm from a bdp. I never felt the need of multi channel even though bdp output 2 channel lpcm only at 16 bit due to hdcp copy protection protocol. only thing is that dialogues become a bit distant in two channel downmix and some times you need the help of subtitles.


----------



## ecwl

rkt31 said:


> obviously Dave will play 2 channel downmix. lot many people like me use stereo set up for movies too due to space limitations or WAF. I use Hugo for movies feeding 2 channel downmix lpcm from a bdp. I never felt the need of multi channel even though bdp output 2 channel lpcm only at 16 bit due to hdcp copy protection protocol. only thing is that dialogues become a bit distant in two channel downmix and some times you need the help of subtitles.




Usually when the dialog is too faint in the stereo downmix, it's because the speaker separation is too great or there is insufficient toe-in of the speakers. Many audiophiles separate their speakers too far because you get wonderful audiophile effects of a super wide soundstage and can pinpoint every instrument but in reality, the sound is a little too thin and unnatural, especially with vocals. The concomitant effect is movie dialogs being faint. By moving the speakers closer or toeing in the speakers more, you get a warmer sound with music and better centre channel dialog clarity with movies. It's worth a try.


----------



## Beolab

@Rob Watts 

Rob; can you tell us the story about the switched power supply ? Is it as good as battery power like in the Hugo TT for example ?
And if you dont have the ability to use a grounded connection in the wall socket, how bad is it for the sound then? 

Second: Is it the left or right pin in on DAVEs power input that is the hot one ?


----------



## Mavwong

I respect Rob that he stick by his philosophy but we have right to voice our preference.
  
 I do have more question coming up my mind. If the xlr out would destroy whatever benefit that Dave should provide why in the first place putting an XLR output on DAVE? I am referring to the suggestion by Rob that do not use an external amp after Dave and since single ended is superior. I already make clear to Rob during the show I prefer XLR especially my main speaker system.
  
 During the show I did bring up the possibility of driving HEK directly from the XLR out of DAVE, Rob don't suggest it but I specifically ask whether there's will be harm which he agree there's no harm. Ok, may be there's misunderstanding and now Rob already make it clear that we shouldn't do it. I will accept it and move on.


----------



## Samuel Snoopy

Found a intrest test/review on Dave (prototype?):

http://www.renaissens.com/fr/blog/185-le-test-du-dac-chord-electronics-dave


----------



## highendhifi

I believe that Chord have at least 30 more orders than the 100 cases they have ready hence the waiting time for deliveries. I'm ordering mine in the New year, once my wife has calmed down from the MB2SE's....
But order I shall!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

That's another positive impression from the French reviewers Samuel. Thanks for posting
  
 Some excerpts (sorry for the limited translation):
  
From the earliest moments, we are surprised by the beauty of this record. The viola da gamba is "in flesh and bone", more real, more alive than with a Chord Hugo TT, who however had already set the bar very high. The instrument breathes in this church, and the acoustics of the place is palpable.
  
Every inflection, every nuance is rendered with a truth, a surprising natural. These are the harmonics that make the timbre of the instrument and they are restored to perfection.
  
Towards the end of the piece, from 1'40 '' Jordi Savall gives shots of bows on strings that resonate on the instrument itself and of course in the collegiate church. The opening of the sound image is permanent and with Dave you are sitting in the first row.
  
Lots of body and comparison A - B the Dave seems more articulate, more nuanced, means better plucked strings and once again the instrument seems fairer, more so even than with our previous reference, the TT. The silence of this device is certainly no stranger to our note.
  
From 50 "the voice of Diana illuminates the auditorium of its light while remaining perfectly focused. Bravo!
  
 In any case, a piece full of energy with a frenzied pace that Dave renders us with perfect timing. One of the great qualities of this device is indeed to keep pace with very rigorously. Dave sticks to 100% to the artist's work. Bravo!
  
The piano is present here, sharper and more energetic than to the usual. The voice of actress Caroline Wildi, who has played in one of the Harry Potter, detaches completely from the accompaniment and takes on a dimension that it did not know him, it becomes physically present. Dave would be it l'oiseau rare that we all seek?
  
Here everything perfectly is mastery of the bass to the treble and you can leave your network drive chain with 3 beach which bears the name of the album. No intermodulation between the players, everyone plays together and air flows permanently around the musicians. Bravo again.
  
When fluidity, when joint, what balance! Everything is there. The quality of stamps, the timing, the holding of the notes of the bass to the treble, the opening of the stereo image. This headphone has a warm, nuanced sound and listening is to delight!


----------



## highendhifi

daveredref-iii said:


> That's another positive impression from the French reviewers Samuel. Thanks for posting
> 
> Some excerpts (sorry for the limited translation):
> 
> ...




Thanks for the quick translate, Dave. Gives us the tenor of the review at least.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

My other half will find this rather humourous when she reads it, as she is half French and a school teacher to boot. I can see my google translation getting a "Could do better" remark.


----------



## Mython

daveredref-iii said:


> My other half will find this rather humourous when she reads it, as she is half French and a school teacher to boot. I can see my google translation getting a "Could do better" remark.


 
  
  
 Yikes, I hope she isn't Parisian!


----------



## Jiffi32

The Audio Barn in the UK has taken delivery of DAVE
  
  
 https://twitter.com/theaudiobarn/status/673886301918273536


----------



## smial1966

How very odd that they didn't take a photo of DAVE but just uploaded a box picture with a Chord amplifier (?) stacked below it. 




jiffi32 said:


> The Audio Barn in the UK has taken delivery of DAVE
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/theaudiobarn/status/673886301918273536


----------



## ecwl

Probably because the unit is spoken for as preorders are going crazy. So they probably don't want to open up a customer's unit...


----------



## smial1966

I guess so, wonder why they've been prioritised to receive preordered stock, as to my knowledge no other UK Chord dealer has DAVE yet. 




ecwl said:


> Probably because the unit is spoken for as preorders are going crazy. So they probably don't want to open up a customer's unit...


----------



## highendhifi

smial1966 said:


> I guess so, wonder why they've been prioritised to receive preordered stock, as to my knowledge no other UK Chord dealer has DAVE yet.



I understand from my dealer that they are reviewing stock now. My dealer ordered two way back at Munich. Apparently a dealer from Singapore (not a distributor!) ordered 40..,,


----------



## smial1966

Paul from hifilounge sent me this yesterday - 

"Chord are definitely building them now and they are pretty confident they will get all UK orders completed before Christmas so it is looking good". 

- so fingers crossed that everything goes according to plan. 



highendhifi said:


> I understand from my dealer that they are reviewing stock now. My dealer ordered two way back at Munich. Apparently a dealer from Singapore (not a distributor!) ordered 40..,,


----------



## highendhifi

Awesome! I will have to wait until the new year to buffer the MB2SE's arriving this week but hope everyone who has ordered receives theirs before Christmas that would be a great present!
Anyone have a view on cable terminations, OT? Atlas Mavros on their way, had their Z plugs before but dealer says spades are the way to go?


----------



## Mython

highendhifi said:


> Awesome! I will have to wait until the new year to buffer the MB2SE's arriving this week


 

  


Spoiler: Off-Topic



 
 Are PMC trying to take credit for the so-called 'Radical' bass drivers? As most people are aware, Volt have been producing bass drivers with a front exoskeleton for many years, now, so PMC were hardly the first, AFAIK...


----------



## Beolab

One hour seminar of the MQA Format in short. You are going to be able to play it with an ordinary DAC , but to get max out of the format you need the silicon and the software to be able to handle MQA, and i hope this don't gonna be like one grand for this upgrade in cost for the DAVE . 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cxyvVXPmJ0o&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Kamil21

Just now I had an opportunity to listen to Dave in Kuala Lumpur at an event with Rob Watts hosted by Centre Circle Audio. After the event, they had a live acoustic band playing.

I used a pair of Sennheiser ie800, and was listening to the music while the band played in the background. Despite the difference in room acoustic of the live band, it was plainly obvious to me that the Dave was giving me the closest approximation to live music ( separation and timing wise) of any other Dac that I can recall.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks for the link Beolab.
  
 It seems to me that regardless of whether the protocol is taken up in a meaningful way by the big vendors, the lasting legacy of Bobs Stuarts work will potentially be in the recording studio itself, affecting future recordings. I am sure there will be remasters of all material that can commercially warrant the cost if the protocol runs but it will be in the studio that he will more likely find strong and swift adoption if the quality claims are true. It doesn't need to be a hardware based solution either, from what I have read. A software multi-track VST plug-in for DAWs would seem an obvious route to market. It would allow studio mixing and mastering engineers the opportunity to try it out via download and twiddle with the timing correction to their hearts content. If Meridian were a new player I would be skeptical about their claims but Meridian has been in the top 10% of the high-end sector for decades and I do not think they have ever made wild claims.
  
 As for adoption of the protocol by Chord and other manufacturers of high end playback equipment its a bit of a chicken and the egg as usual because nobody wants to adopt something that will ultimately fail. However if it significantly enhances digital performance then holding back on adoption would hurt the manufacturer and their customers. It may be a little early yet but I can see this having at least a chance of succeeding as an audiophile protocol if only because of the download and hard disk limitations we currently have at the high-end. If MQA sounds better and saves you time and money, whats not to like? Commercial politics would appear to be the only obstacle.................but then again that should never be underestimated.


----------



## Christer

Who needs compression and data reduction?
 There is already MP3 if you prefer your music compromised .


----------



## Kamil21

Quick review follow up.

 One other consideration is that Dave does not have the analytical clarity of say, the DcS Scarlatti which many may prefer. What it does have is the feel of analog master tape (most of the recording samples were originally from tape anyway), or in my view real life sound.Through the Sennheisers listening to Roger Waters' , Amused to Death, I certainly had a feel that I was listening through a live feed of a 'dummy head' recording.
  
 The DcS will give you a perspective of a recording from 'where the microphone is', but Dave will give you more of a 'listener' seating perspective. Almost like the difference between listening to a multitrack as opposed to a simply miked on location recording. Which one is the more accurate can only be validated in the studio. Also, the Dave has a very NOS kind of sound... which is surprising considering how the two technologies differ.
  
 I did not have the opportunity to listen to the Dave through speakers, but the use of my own ie800 allowed me to do a more controlled comparison. As a Hugo owner, I was still feeling somewhat lacking compared to many top of the line DACs which I own and have owned. The Dave has bridged that gap for sure.


----------



## Sonic77

kamil21 said:


> Quick review follow up.
> 
> One other consideration is that Dave does not have the analytical clarity of say, the DcS Scarlatti which many may prefer. What it does have is the feel of analog master tape (most of the recording samples were originally from tape anyway), or in my view real life sound.Through the Sennheisers listening to Roger Waters' , Amused to Death, I certainly had a feel that I was listening through a live feed of a 'dummy head' recording.
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you for sharing Kamil21.


----------



## bmichels

kamil21 said:


> Quick review follow up.
> 
> One other consideration is that Dave does not have the analytical clarity of say, the DcS Scarlatti which many may prefer. What it does have is the feel of analog master tape (most of the recording samples were originally from tape anyway), or in my view real life sound.Through the Sennheisers listening to Roger Waters' , Amused to Death, I certainly had a feel that I was listening through a live feed of a 'dummy head' recording.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks Kamil21 for this feed-back.
  
 I also owe a HUGO, so how much of a GAP will you say DAVE offer compared to the HUGO ?   Is DAVE just a " much better HUGO" or a totally different Sound signature ?


----------



## Kamil21

bmichels said:


> Thanks Kamil21 for this feed-back.
> 
> I also owe a HUGO, so how much of a GAP will you say DAVE offer compared to the HUGO ?   Is DAVE just a " much better HUGO" or a totally different Sound signature ?




Bmichels, Dave is in a totally different league to the Hugo, but what the Hugo does well, Dave does even better... And then goes further to take things to the 'state of the art'. I would dare anyone who owns and liked Hugo, to listen to Dave without withdrawal symptoms . 

Sorry to put down the Hugo, but the difference is like moving from a BMW Sports to a Porsche. One is a great car and fits the wallet and all round needs of many, but if you are a serious driver, once you drive the Porsche, you will know why it is a Porsche. Both from Germany with the same breed, but the other with a no compromise objective to take things to the edge. 

As for sound signature, it is going to come down to whether you chose your headphone to match the shortcomings of Hugo. For example, I felt that the Hugo sounded dull (less bright) tonally compared to DcS. But with the increased air/ambience of Dave, I realized that other dacs increased brightness was actually to overcome that lack of air.. makes sense?

I should mention that this is probably the production version of the Dave that was finally blessed by Watts for release. Sorry but a lot of Head fi'ers are going to feel much poorer for this. Especially due to the all in one headphone feature of Dave.


----------



## Jiffi32

kamil21 said:


> Bmichels, Dave is in a totally different league to the Hugo, but what the Hugo does well, Dave does even better... And then goes further to take things to the 'state of the art'. I would dare anyone who owns and liked Hugo, to listen to Dave without withdrawal symptoms .


 
  
  
 Totally agree about withdrawal after listening to DAVE and then going back to my HUGO!! Although the recent arrival of a Curious USB cable has helped a little bit


----------



## bmichels

kamil21 said:


> Bmichels, Dave is in a totally different league to the Hugo, but what the Hugo does well, Dave does even better... And then goes further to take things to the 'state of the art'. I would dare anyone who owns and liked Hugo, to listen to Dave without withdrawal symptoms .
> 
> Sorry to put down the Hugo, but the difference is like moving from a BMW Sports to a Porsche. One is a great car and fits the wallet and all round needs of many, but if you are a serious driver, once you drive the Porsche, you will know why it is a Porsche. Both from Germany with the same breed, but the other with a no compromise objective to take things to the edge.
> 
> ...


 
 thanks for your comments


----------



## Sonic77

What would be a good headphone match for the Dave Dac? Any suggestions? I plan on buying the Sennheiser 800s. Are planer headphones a good match?


----------



## Mavwong

Depends on your pref, I would go with HEK!


----------



## Sonic77

mavwong said:


> Depends on your pref, I would go with HEK!


Excellent suggestion, I will seriously consider that headphone, thank you!


----------



## lovethatsound

sonic77 said:


> What would be a good headphone match for the Dave Dac? Any suggestions? I plan on buying the Sennheiser 800s. Are planer headphones a good match?


I use the hd800s,and out all the headphones out their these will tell you what Dave is really like.The best thing to do is to demo Dave with the headphones you want.Let your own ears tell you.


----------



## Sonic77

lovethatsound said:


> I use the hd800s,and out all the headphones out their these will tell you what Dave is really like.The best thing to do is to demo Dave with the headphones you want.Let your own ears tell you.


 

 That sounds like the smart thing to do, thanks.


----------



## smial1966

Just a small thread detour, but where did you purchase your HD800S from and when? As the `S' variant of the HD800 hasn't been released in the UK yet. Thanks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Realised that you were talking plurally about the HD800 and not the HD800S. Doh!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  
 Quote:


lovethatsound said:


> I use the hd800s,and out all the headphones out their these will tell you what Dave is really like.The best thing to do is to demo Dave with the headphones you want.Let your own ears tell you.


----------



## highendhifi

kamil21 said:


> Quick review follow up.
> 
> 
> One other consideration is that Dave does not have the analytical clarity of say, the DcS Scarlatti which many may prefer. What it does have is the feel of analog master tape (most of the recording samples were originally from tape anyway), or in my view real life sound.Through the Sennheisers listening to Roger Waters' , Amused to Death, I certainly had a feel that I was listening through a live feed of a 'dummy head' recording.
> ...



Many thanks for the feedback!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

There are times in life when I am truly thankful for a special experience that touches my heart. Even as I am running this piece of equipment in I am already aware of its special way with music. It casts an emotional spell as soon as the music starts. It is not like anything I have experienced in digital hifi before. This is why I go to see live performances and now the same emotion is here in my listening room whenever I want. I feel privileged to be honest.

This is so special an audiophile moment for me that I have begun to record my thoughts during the burn in process, if only to mark the occasion. (I am already past 4 pages of notes.)

DAVE just connects you to the performance. The drama is almost humbling. All these great musicians pouring out their emotion into your room. 

So far I have been having a 20 hour total Classical binge! This from someone who has hardly bothered with classical since digital arrived.  With Dave the Violin is my new favourite instrument. My goodness Red Book sounds good through DAVE.

(I need sleep)

Thank you Rob Watts for your diligent work and ingenuity.


----------



## highendhifi

daveredref-iii said:


> There are times in life when I am truly thankful for a special experience that touches my heart. Even as I am running this piece of equipment in I am already aware of its special way with music. It casts an emotional spell as soon as the music starts. It is not like anything I have experienced in digital hifi before. This is why I go to see live performances and now the same emotion is here in my listening room whenever I want. I feel privileged to be honest.
> 
> This is so special an audiophile moment for me that I have begun to record my thoughts during the burn in process, if only to mark the occasion. (I am already past 4 pages of notes.)
> 
> ...




Wow, thanks DaveRRIII... Great initial thoughts and feedback-sounds like DAVE is what it promised to be and I'm very pleased to hear that it brings a new life to Red Book as that's my source material. Please keep us all updated on your experiences and thoughts, Dave!


----------



## Mython

highendhifi said:


> daveredref-iii said:
> 
> 
> > My goodness Red Book sounds good through DAVE.
> ...


 
  
  
 I am not surprised to hear this, in light of the fact that, by far, one of the most notable aspects of the Hugo was, for me, it's remarkable ability to bring standard Red Book recordings to life. Even though I can't afford a DAVE at this point in my life, I am very keen to hear it.


----------



## rkt31

the most crucial test for any dac at even the highest price point is how musical and 'emotional' it is . I believe the Dave is just what it should be for a best dac. the more real is the reproduction of sound from digital bits the more emotional the experience is.


----------



## rkt31

right it is beyond by budget but I would always invest in an equipment like this instead of things 
like automobile if given the choice.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

So would I rkt31


----------



## JaZZ

daveredref-iii said:


> There are times in life when I am truly thankful for a special experience that touches my heart. Even as I am running this piece of equipment in I am already aware of its special way with music. It casts an emotional spell as soon as the music starts. It is not like anything I have experienced in digital hifi before. This is why I go to see live performances and now the same emotion is here in my listening room whenever I want. I feel privileged to be honest.
> 
> This is so special an audiophile moment for me that I have begun to record my thoughts during the burn in process, if only to mark the occasion. (I am already past 4 pages of notes.)
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's great to hear – thanks, _Dave!_
  
 Sounds like DAVE is a no-brainer for those who can afford it. I will have to wait till January for my own music-listening epiphany with it.


----------



## bmichels

daveredref-iii said:


> There are times in life when I am truly thankful for a special experience that touches my heart. Even as I am running this piece of equipment in I am already aware of its special way with music. It casts an emotional spell as soon as the music starts. It is not like anything I have experienced in digital hifi before. This is why I go to see live performances and now the same emotion is here in my listening room whenever I want. I feel privileged to be honest.
> 
> This is so special an audiophile moment for me that I have begun to record my thoughts during the burn in process, if only to mark the occasion. (I am already past 4 pages of notes.)
> 
> ...


 
  
 Very positive and promissing.  I should be able to hear DAVE very soon. I am looking forward to it 
  
 --> What CD-Player and what HighRes player are you using with DAVE ?  What HEADPHONE ?


----------



## Sonic77

daveredref-iii said:


> There are times in life when I am truly thankful for a special experience that touches my heart. Even as I am running this piece of equipment in I am already aware of its special way with music. It casts an emotional spell as soon as the music starts. It is not like anything I have experienced in digital hifi before. This is why I go to see live performances and now the same emotion is here in my listening room whenever I want. I feel privileged to be honest.
> 
> This is so special an audiophile moment for me that I have begun to record my thoughts during the burn in process, if only to mark the occasion. (I am already past 4 pages of notes.)
> 
> ...


 

 Great!
 What country are you in?, if you don't mind letting us know.


----------



## Mython

sonic77 said:


> Great!
> What country are you in?, if you don't mind letting us know.


 
  
 ...and county, borough, road, house number, acceptable visiting hours, preferred means of bribery... that kind of thing


----------



## Jiffi32

mython said:


> ...and county, borough, road, house number, acceptable visiting hours, preferred means of bribery... that kind of thing


 

 ​and can we all come round for Christmas, etc!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 How did you manage to get yours so soon? my dealer is still waiting for his dem unit


----------



## Sonic77

jiffi32 said:


> ​and can we all come round for Christmas, etc!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That's why I'm asking what country.


mython said:


> ...and county, borough, road, house number, acceptable visiting hours, preferred means of bribery... that kind of thing


 
 Ha!


----------



## Mython

sonic77 said:


> mython said:
> 
> 
> > ...and county, borough, road, house number, acceptable visiting hours, preferred means of bribery... that kind of thing
> ...


 
  
  
 Don't tell me that _also_ hadn't crossed your mind! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
  
 ....but seriously, though, Dave did receive his DAVE pretty quickly, and good luck to him, as he is clearly a loyal Chord customer


----------



## Sonic77

I have my Dave on order and will receive it sooner or later, the one thing I was asked, when I ordered it was, what color do you want black or silver? I said I prefer black if there is no delay, if there would be a delay send the silver. My system is all black, but it doesn't make a difference to me, only the sound matters with this one.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

In answer to questions I ordered fairly early, UK based, have good contacts and I am a longstanding Chord client. We are full for Christmas unfortunately.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Forgot to say I am not using HiRes kit. Sticking with red book for the time being.


----------



## bmichels

daveredref-iii said:


> Forgot to say I am not using HiRes kit. Sticking with red book for the time being.


 
 AH...   
  
 would you mind telling us what headphone are you using so succesfully with DAVE ?  Do you use DAVE internal headphone amp or do you use an external headphone Amp ?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I mentioned earlier on the thread that I rarely use headphones. I prefer to listen via loudspeakers. Sorry I cannot help.

Edit: The speakers are Sonus Faber Olympica III btw. From early impressions I think their silk dome tweeter is well matched to the detail of Dave. I favour silk dome tweeters much in the same way people prefer the sound of vinyl.


----------



## brightonjel

Congrats on the new baby, Dave, (or new baby Dave) and thrilled to hear it's delivering everything you were looking for!  Have a very musical Xmas!
  
 Keep us in the loop as you learn more.  After all, a vicarious Dave is the closest many of us will come!
  
 John


----------



## Mython

Spoiler: (Off-topic)






daveredref-iii said:


> I favour silk dome tweeters much in the same way people prefer the sound of vinyl.


 
  
  
 I like silk domes, too.
  
 I chose a pair of Scanspeak D2900s (can't remember if they were 9500 or 9300 variant) when I built my stand-mount loudspeakers, 20 yrs ago. Not _'high-end' _but no slouches _at all!_
  
 Even these middle-priced (by _Scanspeak_ standards) tweeters portray brushed cymbals _*beautifully*_...


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I think they portray stringed instruments very well too. Fabers all have a front 'stringed' grill and the combination of tweeter and grill replicates the sound arrangement of a stringed instrument. From the shaped box to the stringed grill Sonus Fabers are instruments. They used to make violins. Silk dome tweeters produce the silkiness of strings. Even acoustic and classical guitar strings have a silky quality when new.


----------



## Mython

To be quite honest, I'm looking forward to seeing how many other DAC designers are going to_ continue_ to deny the relevance of tap length in high-end digital music reproduction, once the DAVE DAC does the rounds with the reviewers, show-going public, and new owners.
  
 Should be quite entertaining, in more ways than one, and I rather suspect Rob, John & Matt will be doing more smiling than the aforementioned DAC designers...


----------



## Beolab

mython said:


> To be quite honest, I'm looking forward to seeing how many other DAC designers are going to _continue_ to deny the relevance of tap length in high-end digital music reproduction, once the DAVE DAC does the rounds with the reviewers, show-going public, and new owners.
> 
> Should be quite entertaining, in more ways than one, and I rather suspect Rob, John & Matt will be doing more smiling than the aforementioned DAC designers...




Yes i agree with you !!  

Just give us a respected review we can chew on in the mean time !!


----------



## Mavwong

Ditto, I always like silk/soft dome vs metal base tweeters.
  
 I am going to hook up Dave to ASI tango, hopefully soon.
  
 For HP, I also getting HEK, driving directly from Dave for now. I already zoom in to violectric 281 for balance driving setup if I manage to find someone who willing to get together for an audit session in Singapore.
  
  
  
 Quote:


daveredref-iii said:


> I think they portray stringed instruments very well too. Fabers all have a front 'stringed' grill and the combination of tweeter and grill replicates the sound arrangement of a stringed instrument. From the shaped box to the stringed grill Sonus Fabers are instruments. They used to make violins. Silk dome tweeters produce the silkiness of strings. Even acoustic and classical guitar strings have a silky quality when new.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Regarding tap length I am willing to accept that there may be more than one way to skin a cat and each designer treading their own path is a healthy thing. It would be foolhardy to imagine that the solution found for every aspect of Dave is the best solution out there. That would be unusual. I care about what it delivers rather than how and I hope designers do too, Particularly in the area of musicality, drama, emotion. That is why music exists after all. We want to be excited, moved by it and in this respect DAVE scores well imo.


----------



## Kamil21

daveredref-iii said:


> Regarding tap length I am willing to accept that there may be more than one way to skin a cat and each designer treading their own path is a healthy thing. It would be foolhardy to imagine that the solution found for every aspect of Dave is the best solution out there. That would be unusual. I care about what it delivers rather than how and I hope designers do too, Particularly in the area of musicality, drama, emotion. That is why music exists after all. We want to be excited, moved by it and in this respect DAVE scores well imo.




Well said. However the Chord/Watts approach of being able to control their Dac and filter design by software rather than via commercial chips, is still unprecedented amongst Dac box manufacturers in my view.


----------



## Mython

daveredref-iii said:


> Regarding tap length I am willing to accept that there may be more than one way to skin a cat and each designer treading their own path is a healthy thing. It would be foolhardy to imagine that the solution found for every aspect of Dave is the best solution out there. That would be unusual. I care about what it delivers rather than how and I hope designers do too, Particularly in the area of musicality, drama, emotion. That is why music exists after all. We want to be excited, moved by it and in this respect DAVE scores well imo.


 
  
  
 Oh, I agree - please don't misunderstand me - I'm not 'worshiping' tap-length (_or Rob_) here - my remark was aimed very specifically at the relative skepticism Rob has apparently endured, for many years, from his peers, about the significance of tap-length in rendering a realistic high-fidelity AD / DA conversion.   We all know there are _numerous_ other factors influencing the conversion accuracy, too, and many of these factors are addressed with great aplomb by other DAC designers, and kudos to them for their accomplishments. I agree with you that one cannot realistically expect Rob to be *100%* as accomplished as his peers in _*100%*_ of their skills in the minute and multitudinous facets of DA conversion. That's no slight on Rob - it's just being pragmatic. No-one is the absolute supreme king of all design facets.
  
 Neither do I anticipate DAVE beating all other DACs, outright. That, too, would be absurd.
  
 It's more that I view Rob's approach as being relatively unique, and so it will be interesting to see whether or not his peers concede that this relatively unique approach has turned out to be a worthy pursuit, after all, now that the silicon horsepower has _finally_ made a substantial tap-length (and associated other DAC parameters - filtering, etc.) viable in a production DAC.
  
 Although I have not owned high-end DACs, I've attended my fair share of high-end shows (& showrooms), over the years, and when I first heard the Hugo, I was genuinely taken-aback by the degree of realism it manages to squeeze out of humble Redbook material.  Not 'night-&-day' versus other good DACs, of course, but, to my ears, _significantly_ special.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Appreciate your point Mython. It is curious that nobody has followed Robs path in respect of tap length. I think companies like DCS, MSB, PS Audio etc have done a very good job at delivering fine presentation and detail but they hung their hat on DSD and that was a mistake imo. Rob highlights one inherent weakness but from what I have read there is a killer flaw regarding the encoded timing in that unlike PCM the timing of DSD it not woven in the wave form. It treads its own straight line while the sound is a wave. PCM timing follows the wave by design. This imo is why there is so much problem getting live musicality from DSD no matter how good the clock. Robs taps seem to add greater accuracy to an already credible timing arrangement in PCM but I must say I am intrigued as to if it also may solve this DSD flaw.


----------



## Whazzzup

must stop reading
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 about dave


----------



## Samuel Snoopy

Haha, I can't stop reading Dave every minute!


----------



## ecwl

daveredref-iii said:


> Appreciate your point Mython. It is curious that nobody has followed Robs path in respect of tap length. I think companies like DCS, MSB, PS Audio etc have done a very good job at delivering fine presentation and detail but they hung their hat on DSD and that was a mistake imo. Rob highlights one inherent weakness but from what I have read there is a killer flaw regarding the encoded timing in that unlike PCM the timing of DSD it not woven in the wave form. It treads its own straight line while the sound is a wave. PCM timing follows the wave by design. This imo is why there is so much problem getting live musicality from DSD no matter how good the clock. Robs taps seem to add greater accuracy to an already credible timing arrangement in PCM but I must say I am intrigued as to if it also may solve this DSD flaw.


 

 I don't think dCS/MSB/PS Audio truly hung their hat on DSD. dCS uses the Ring DAC which is probably closer to a multi-bit PCM DAC or even Rob's multi-element pulse array DAC than true DSD. MSB is a modified R2R ladder DAC so has nothing to do with DSD. PS Audio talks about DSD all the time but really, it is a DAC that upsamples everything probably to high-res PCM first and then to 10xDSD and then downsamples it to 2xDSD for the DAC. Everyone talks about DSD so every DAC feels like they have to have DSD support. But it's all a lie. Most DACs converts the DSD back into PCM before sending it to the DAC for playback. Even the so-called DSD DACs mostly converts the standard DSD signal into PCM, run it through a low-pass filter first and then re-convert the signal into 2xDSD before playback.
  
 I think Rob Watts' main point is that he believe DSD as a recording format actually encodes less information than PCM because of timing/transient issues and because of limited ability for dithering of ultra low-level noise.
  
 But I think his problem with using a PDM/PWM/DSD DAC to playback the music is completely different. Yes, at standard DSD of 2.8MHz, Watts probably thinks that DSD will have timing issues. But I suspect he would agree that issue can be resolved if the playback is done at 2xDSD or 10xDSD. He said he did not choose an ultra-high-frequency 1-bit DSD/PWM DAC design and opted for the multi-element pulse array DAC design because he finds a pure PWM/DSD DAC would cause jitter to be modulation-dependent, adding more jitter and noise, particularly more noise-floor modulation in the end. And obviously, he believes all these factors determine the quality of ultra-high-end DACs. I guess I will have to wait for my Chord DAVE to find out for myself. But I'm currently very happy with my Chord QBD76HDSD so I'd like to think Rob Watts knows what he is talking about.


----------



## Rob Watts

daveredref-iii said:


> Regarding tap length I am willing to accept that there may be more than one way to skin a cat and each designer treading their own path is a healthy thing. It would be foolhardy to imagine that the solution found for every aspect of Dave is the best solution out there. That would be unusual. I care about what it delivers rather than how and I hope designers do too, Particularly in the area of musicality, drama, emotion. That is why music exists after all. We want to be excited, moved by it and in this respect DAVE scores well imo.


 
 Sorry but I disagree completely about your comment that there is more than one way to skin a cat - implying that to create a musical DAC one can use different techniques and technologies.
  
 It depends somewhat on what the designer is trying to accomplish - and if the idea is too create a particular sound that is "nice" then yes there are a myriad number of ways to create a "nice" sound. But the problem with the idea of creating a particular sound is that then all recordings and music genres sound the same. And that's not what I am trying to do.
  
 Go round high-end shows and listen to all the gear on display (Chord not included). And then go to a live acoustic event. The live music sounds way better than recorded, and is much more involving or emotional - in short more musicality. You can hear instruments with breathtaking clarity, with huge precision in space, wide variation in timbre and instrument power. High end audio sounds poor by comparison - flat sound-stage - poor timbre variation, poor instrument separation, no real sense of instrument power and dynamics, poor timing of starting and stopping of notes. Now all these problems are due to aberrations and distortions. The biggest issue with digital is the timing recovery, that is reproducing the original analogue signal from one sample to the next sample perfectly. And the mathematics is simple and completely clear and a proven fact - if you use a infinite tap length FIR filter with a sin(x)/x function you will completely and perfectly recover the bandwidth limited sampled signal. So to recover the original analogue signal perfectly you MUST use extremely long tap length filters.
  
 So if you are in the business of making transparent DAC's so that you can get much closer to the original recording you can only do it by using very long tap length filters. This is just a simple fact. Now there are other issues that are also very important such as noise floor modulation and depth perception. To solve these issues forces you to do certain things - its just basic reality. And other DAC designers just simply do not do the things absolutely needed to eliminate noise floor modulation and depth perception let alone timing recovery. They aren't even asking the right starting questions. Then there is the point that choosing a piece of silicon does not make you a DAC designer....
  
 So to make a truly transparent DAC can't be done in a myriad of different ways.
  
 Rob


----------



## Mython

You make some good points, Rob, and I lack your level of technical understanding, but the very fact that we see so many fans of differing analogue amplifier topologies points to the fact that, technical realism aside, there are variations in what 'flavour' of audio reproduction listeners enjoy. I totally acknowledge that you are seeking *realism;  absolute fidelity to the original live performance*, and I applaud that aim. I _wholeheartedly_ applaud it - and I am very grateful that you are advancing the state of the digital art, for the benefit of audiophiles the world over, myself included.
  
 I don't think any of us are disagreeing with you on that point.
  
 But, even when you have achieved mathematical _near-_perfection (let's pretend that might be when you achieve 10 million taps, or so, in, perhaps, 5-6 years time), I am in little doubt that, even when you reach that stratospheric level of mathematical accuracy in DA (and AD) conversion, we will_ still _witness many people saying they prefer less mathematically-proficient DACs, engineered with a different design focus (and very proficiently, by talented designers, within the boundaries of their chosen topological approach).
  
 There may not be more than one way to attain mathematically-perfect reconstruction of an analogue signal from an encoded digital audio signal, but there is still more than one way to decode a digital signal to some _level_ of mathematical accuracy, whilst moulding the 'flavour' of the sound to suit different audiophile tastes.
  
 Obnoxious to a mathematical purist, perhaps, (and possibly also to a live music-lover) but not necessarily to an audiophile (itself an obnoxious term, I know), especially considering the fact that other components in the analogue reproduction chain will introduce their inaccuracies along the way (loudspeakers, especially), no matter how mathematically-perfect the DAC might be.
  
 Such are the peculiar perversities of subjective listening preferences 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  
  
  
  
_P.S.: I apologise for using the word 'absurd', in my earlier post - it was ill-chosen but aimed at subjective preferences of DAC-buyers not all being the same, rather than intended to cast any aspersion on your ability to attain higher mathematical accuracy of reconstruction of the analogue signal from a digital source than other DAC designers have thus far achieved. I am in no doubt that your are very much capable of eclipsing that aspect of all other high-end DACs, because I see the technical value in your tap-length approach._


----------



## Rob Watts

mython said:


> You make some good points, Rob, and I lack your level of technical understanding, but the very fact that we see so many fans of differing analogue amplifier topologies points to the fact that, technical realism aside, there are variations in what 'flavour' of audio reproduction listeners enjoy. I totally acknowledge that you are seeking *realism;  absolute fidelity to the original live performance*, and I applaud that aim. I _wholeheartedly_ applaud it - and I am very grateful that you are advancing the state of the digital art, for the benefit of audiophiles the world over, myself included.
> 
> I don't think any of us are disagreeing with you on that point.
> 
> ...


 
 Yes I agree; some audiophiles have very different tastes for sound quality. And I am totally cool with that; whatever one enjoys is fine by me.
  
 But perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been. What DaveRedRef was saying was " I care about what it delivers rather than how and I hope designers do too, Particularly in the area of musicality, drama, emotion" It is musicality (that is defined as being involved emotionally in the music) that I care about - the stuff we talk about in describing the sound is secondary. And in the area of musicality I believe there is only one approach, and that is centred upon making it easy for the brain to understand what is going on. So my work is centred on finding out which distortions and aberrations are critical to the brain being able to make sense of what is going on audibly. Once you reduce these distortions, then musicality improves. Now I need to stress that this is independent of taste; if a distortion degrades the ability to reproduce variation of timbre this will be true for all individuals.
  
 That's the reason why Hugo has been such a (pretty much - some people like distortion) universal success - I crossed a threshold where the aberrations that interfere with the ability of the brain to make sense of the music was dramatically reduced. At the time I did not know what I had done to achieve this - but with the Dave project I fully understand what I had done, and have been able to maximise it. With these improvements musicality was markedly improved - and what was fascinating was listening fatigue disappeared - for the first time ever I could listen all day and night without any fatigue. And the technical reasons for this was I had reduced these aberrations that interfere with the brains ability to make sense of the music. And when it becomes easy for the brain to understand, you don't get listening fatigue. You also maximise musicality simply because its so easy to hear what is going on. Musicality depends upon expression and variability, and in order to maximise variability you absolutely must do certain things - I will give 3 examples:
  
 1. Perception of timing. Digital is very poor at reproducing timing, that is being able to perceive the starting and stopping of notes. Technically, the only way of solving this problem is very long tap length FIR filters (actually there is very much more to it than this, but I am illustrating an point). So this point forces the designer to do one approach only.
  
 2. Perception of depth - or variability of location. The Dave project has convinced me that the brain is incredibly sensitive to very small errors in amplitude for very small signals. And the actual accuracy required exceeds 48 bit or a tolerance of +/- 0.0000000000003%. This performance is absolutely not possible with all other dac topologies - it can only be done with noise shapers of immense complexity running at 2048 FS. Its about a trillion times more capable in accuracy than usual high end DAC's. So this point forces the designer to do one approach only.
  
 3. Perception of timbre. This is actually involves 1 as well (timing) but is also dependent upon noise floor modulation. Dave is unique in that it has -180 dB noise floor with zero measured noise floor modulation - that's at least 100 times better than all other DAC's at any price point. Now to get this level of noise floor modulation is technically extremely difficult; but again there is only one way to do this, so this forces the designer to one approach only - an approach that covers lots of different aspects as noise floor modulation comes from many different sources within a DAC.
  
 So I reiterate - if its musicality you want, then the approach is to reduce distortions and aberrations that degrade the brains ability to decode the sound. And in many cases, there is only one way to actually do this. So there are not many ways to do this. Note also the problems I have been talking about are very specific to digital audio. The brain is used to dealing with harmonic distortion as the ear is not linear; the aberrations that transducers make are not so much of a problem for the brain to deal with. But digital aberrations really upset the brains ability - its not used to dealing with timing errors for example.
  
 Rob


----------



## rkt31

any link for user manual of dave ?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks for the detailed comments Rob. I do not have the technical knowledge to agree or refute your claim so I will just say that experience has taught me there is almost always more than one way of achieving something. Yours is not the only 'naturally musical' solution out there Rob. producers/engineers have acclaimed MQA as incredibly natural and musical. In the hours of interviews that Bob Stuart has devoted to the subject I have heard him talk (like you) about zero noise floor modulation but no mention of tap length. Perhaps he is holding that back perhaps not. I think it is healthy to have an open mind on the subject. Even Einstein didn't have all his theories proved correct.  What really matters to me is enjoying musicality and Dave does that for me so certainly improved tap length has helped in that pursuit.


----------



## JaZZ

daveredref-iii said:


> Thanks for the detailed comments Rob. I do not have the technical knowledge to agree or refute your claim so I will just say that experience has taught me there is almost always more than one way of achieving something. Yours is not the only 'naturally musical' solution out there Rob. producers/engineers have acclaimed MQA as incredibly natural and musical. In the hours of interviews that Bob Stuart has devoted to the subject I have heard him talk (like you) about zero noise floor modulation but no mention of tap length. Perhaps he is holding that back perhaps not. *I think it is healthy to have an open mind on the subject.* Even Einstein didn't have all his theories proved correct.  What really matters to me is enjoying musicality and Dave does that for me so certainly improved tap length has helped in that pursuit.


 
  
 As I see it, it's in fact the open mind which has enabled Rob to achieve such a high level of musicality and accuracy of digital music reproduction. Who would have thought that the human ears and brains are so sensitive! That explains a lot, e.g. also in terms of cable sound, which is swept aside by many not so open minds.
  
 I for one fully trust Rob and his philosophy, of which I understand maybe 66% after all (of course not in detail). A perfect reconstruction of the original analogue signal is the crucial point, without a doubt, and that's what he cares for with unmatched diligence. Probably because no other manufacturer/developer has the same programming skills combined with ultra-fine hearing – add to this the famous openmindedness. I will buy DAVE blindly – not least influenced by your review –, and it will be by far the greatest expense of my hi-fi career.


----------



## Kakki

Rob, it is commonly said that the capacitors, resistors, and even solders have specific sound signature so that hifi product designers often do listening tests, swapping those analogue components to adjust the product sound.
  
 Is this the case with you and your product as well?
  
 Also, even for the surface-mount type of components, we have resistors / capacitors in wide range of price from few cents each to $10 each... what was your philosophy or approach when selecting analogue components for Dave? I'm a bit curious about that.


----------



## Mython

kakki said:


> Rob, it is commonly said that the capacitors, resistors, and even solders have specific sound signature so that hifi product designers often do listening tests, swapping those analogue components to adjust the product sound.
> 
> Is this the case with you and your product as well?
> 
> Also, even for the surface-mount type of components, we have resistors / capacitors in wide range of price from few cents each to $10 each... what was your philosophy or approach when selecting analogue components for Dave? I'm a bit curious about that.


 
  


rob watts said:


> .... sometimes a balanced connection does sound better than single ended (SE) - in a pre-power context - but it depends upon the environment, and the pre and power and the interconnect. But the downside of balanced is that you are doubling the number of analogue components in the direct signal path, and this degrades transparency.* In my experience every passive component is audible, every metal to metal interface (including solder joints - I once had a lot of fun listening to solder) has an impact - in case of metal/metal interfaces it degrades detail resolution and the perception of depth*. So going balanced will have a cost in transparency.
> 
> In DAC design, going balanced is essential with silicon design; there is simply too much substrate noise and other effects not too. But with discrete DAC's you do not need to worry about this, so going SE on a discrete DAC is possible, and is how all my DAC's are done. But differential operation hides certain problems (notably reference circuit) that has serious SQ effects; so going SE means those problems are exposed, which forces one to solve the issue fundamentally. In short, to make SE work you have to solve many more problems, but the result of solving those problems solves SQ issues than differential operation hides when you do measurements.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
_(NB: bold emphasis added by me)_


----------



## musicday

Hello Rob and John,
Thank you for your wonderful products, Hugo,Mojo and now the amazing Dave.
Where can we listen to the last around shows in London any time soon?


----------



## Skampmeister

musicday said:


> Hello Rob and John,
> Thank you for your wonderful products, Hugo,Mojo and now the amazing Dave.
> Where can we listen to the last around shows in London any time soon?




Don't forget the 2Qute, the better of the three, IMO


----------



## Music2move

ecwl said:


> I don't think dCS/MSB/PS Audio truly hung their hat on DSD. dCS uses the Ring DAC which is probably closer to a multi-bit PCM DAC or even Rob's multi-element pulse array DAC than true DSD. MSB is a modified R2R ladder DAC so has nothing to do with DSD. PS Audio talks about DSD all the time but really, it is a DAC that upsamples everything probably to high-res PCM first and then to 10xDSD and then downsamples it to 2xDSD for the DAC. Everyone talks about DSD so every DAC feels like they have to have DSD support. But it's all a lie. Most DACs converts the DSD back into PCM before sending it to the DAC for playback. Even the so-called DSD DACs mostly converts the standard DSD signal into PCM, run it through a low-pass filter first and then re-convert the signal into 2xDSD before playback.
> 
> I think Rob Watts' main point is that he believe DSD as a recording format actually encodes less information than PCM because of timing/transient issues and because of limited ability for dithering of ultra low-level noise.
> 
> But I think his problem with using a PDM/PWM/DSD DAC to playback the music is completely different. Yes, at standard DSD of 2.8MHz, Watts probably thinks that DSD will have timing issues. But I suspect he would agree that issue can be resolved if the playback is done at 2xDSD or 10xDSD. He said he did not choose an ultra-high-frequency 1-bit DSD/PWM DAC design and opted for the multi-element pulse array DAC design because he finds a pure PWM/DSD DAC would cause jitter to be modulation-dependent, adding more jitter and noise, particularly more noise-floor modulation in the end. And obviously, he believes all these factors determine the quality of ultra-high-end DACs. I guess I will have to wait for my Chord DAVE to find out for myself. But I'm currently very happy with my Chord QBD76HDSD so I'd like to think Rob Watts knows what he is talking about.


 
 Hi , would like to hear DAVE when available, having owned QBD76 ( non HD version), and befor that, Chord DAC64.  IMO, I felt that balanced XLR digital dual connections from Chord Blu CD transport, and balanced analogue  outputs sound lovely, more space and grace. Again, based on my exposure, this DAC ( DAVE ) from Chord promises much excitement.
  
 After stints listening to PCM DACs ( Calyx Femto owner now, and compared it to Gryphon Kalliope over several hours at dealer ), the dual ESS 9018 DACs were dynamic and portrayed lots of energy, contrast and leading edge definition.   dCS Vivaldi ( full 4-box set, cannot remember what connections used ) directly driving D'Agostino momentum monoblocks to Wilson Alexias,  then best of all to Kharma Exquisite Reference 1a speakers, let me better appreciate their clarity, depth and " front-row " immediacy.  Now happiest with DSD DACs  from Nagra HD DAC and EMM Labs XDS1v2  to flesh out the musical images within 4-6 rows from performances near as live at the concert recital venue , at least as I can recall from my sitting positions at the venues, with a natural musicality, space and depth , and portrayal of small shifts of timbre, emphasis and musical flow.
  
 Just my opinion and prior experiences.  Thx for the journey,  M2m


----------



## smial1966

musicday,
  
 Why not just contact your nearest authorised Chord dealer, as they should be receiving stock of DAVE imminently.  
  
 Quote:


musicday said:


> Hello Rob and John,
> Thank you for your wonderful products, Hugo,Mojo and now the amazing Dave.
> Where can we listen to the last around shows in London any time soon?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I am stearing clear of comments on sound until Dave is past 170 hours burn in btw (94 hours so far) however I witnessed something when we were decorating the Christmas tree last night. 4 of us present. 2 adults and two teenagers. I was playing Gladys Knight followed by Marvin Gaye 'best of' compilations. All parties present suddenly wanted to stand or dance and sing along where they either knew or guessed the lyrics. The teenagers were unfamiliar with most of the music but you could see their engagement and animation. None of those present bar me have the least bit of interest in hifi but their appreciation of good music was evident. A good sign I think.


----------



## smial1966

Your lovely anecdote sounds very promising and gives me great hope/expectation that DAVE will sound utterly spectacular. 
  
 Seasons greetings and a very Merry Christmas. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Quote:


daveredref-iii said:


> I am stearing clear of comments on sound until Dave is past 170 hours burn in btw (94 hours so far) however I witnessed something when we were decorating the Christmas tree last night. 4 of us present. 2 adults and two teenagers. I was playing Gladys Knight followed by Marvin Gaye 'best of' compilations. All parties present suddenly wanted to stand or dance and sing along where they either knew or guessed the lyrics. The teenagers were unfamiliar with most of the music but you could see their engagement and animation. None of those present bar me have the least bit of interest in hifi but their appreciation of good music was evident. A good sign I think.


----------



## bmichels

daveredref-iii said:


> I am stearing clear of comments on sound until Dave is past 170 hours burn in btw (94 hours so far) however I witnessed something when we were decorating the Christmas tree last night. 4 of us present. 2 adults and two teenagers. I was playing Gladys Knight followed by Marvin Gaye 'best of' compilations. All parties present suddenly wanted to stand or dance and sing along where they either knew or guessed the lyrics. The teenagers were unfamiliar with most of the music but you could see their engagement and animation. None of those present bar me have the least bit of interest in hifi but their appreciation of good music was evident. A good sign I think.


 
  
 very good sign indeed.
  
 So now we need a battle between the 3 pretenders for "Best DAC with a Headphone Out" :  NAGRA HD DAC, TotalDAC D1-Dual (or Mono) &  DAVE.  Who will win ?


----------



## lovethatsound

bmichels said:


> very good sign indeed.
> 
> So now we need a battle between the 3 pretenders for "Best DAC with a Headphone Out" :  NAGRA HD DAC, TotalDAC D1-Dual (or Mono) &  DAVE.  Who will win ?


Who will win?that's easy bmichels,the ONE you like the MOST.merry xmas 2 you.


----------



## bmichels

lovethatsound said:


> Who will win?that's easy bmichels,the ONE you like the MOST.merry xmas 2 you.


----------



## Mavwong

Man, not so good news for me, I was told by my dealer in Singapore I won't be getting the Dave by end of year. Will in Jan though.


----------



## mjdutton

Love the Mojo and after selling my Hugo need a replacement for the HiFi.  Is there a user manual for the DAVE yet?


----------



## analogmusic

kamil21 said:


> Bmichels, Dave is in a totally different league to the Hugo, but what the Hugo does well, Dave does even better... And then goes further to take things to the 'state of the art'. I would dare anyone who owns and liked Hugo, to listen to Dave without withdrawal symptoms .
> 
> Sorry to put down the Hugo, but the difference is like moving from a BMW Sports to a Porsche. One is a great car and fits the wallet and all round needs of many, but if you are a serious driver, once you drive the Porsche, you will know why it is a Porsche. Both from Germany with the same breed, but the other with a no compromise objective to take things to the edge.
> 
> ...


 

 No disrespect but I have driven both Porsche and BMW many many times, and much prefer BMW. Much superior car in driving dynamics.  BMW are much more technically advanced cars than the simpler porsche ones. 
  
 One of my friends who owns a Cayenne V8 who owned an X5 previously said the same, the X5 is a much sportier car.

 When I compared BMW M6 with V10 engine to V8 Panamera, it was no match, the BMW is a car for sports drivers, and the panamera, just a pretty looking car.


----------



## Beolab

analogmusic said:


> No disrespect but I have driven both Porsche and BMW many many times, and much prefer BMW. Much superior car in driving dynamics.  BMW are much more technically advanced cars than the simpler porsche ones.
> 
> One of my friends who owns a Cayenne V8 who owned an X5 previously said the same, the X5 is a much sportier car.
> 
> ...




The comparision Bmw Vs Porsche was not a good one to understand the diffrence. 

I think more Opel Vectra OPC vs Bentely its a better parallel according to my impressions of what my sources have told me.


----------



## Mython

Is all this car talk wheely necessary?


----------



## Rob Watts

kakki said:


> Rob, it is commonly said that the capacitors, resistors, and even solders have specific sound signature so that hifi product designers often do listening tests, swapping those analogue components to adjust the product sound.
> 
> Is this the case with you and your product as well?
> 
> Also, even for the surface-mount type of components, we have resistors / capacitors in wide range of price from few cents each to $10 each... what was your philosophy or approach when selecting analogue components for Dave? I'm a bit curious about that.


 
 Absolutely, and I spent a lot of time researching and listening in the 1980's why metal/metal interfaces, solder, passive components etc make a big difference to the sound.
  
 Its a bit complex, as RF characteristics, dielectric absorption (caps), small signal non-linearity, resistor non-linearity and resistor thermal non-linearity all have an influence to the final sound quality. So I could spend all day talking about it.
  
 On manufacturing of boards, the soldering makes a big difference to the sound quality. All Chord products are now reflow soldered and soldered in an inert nitrogen gas atmosphere - this prevents the silver solder from oxidising. Normally, flow solder machines are used, and these have awful impurities. We do not use flow soldering - the leaded components are reflow soldered in nitrogen too, in this case they use an automated syringe to inject silver solder paste into the PCB holes. Then its nitrogen reflow soldered. Its another reason why all products from Mojo to Dave has such exceptional sound-staging and detail resolution. Its also curious that this automated technique sounds better than hand soldering.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

bmichels said:


> very good sign indeed.
> 
> So now we need a battle between the 3 pretenders for "Best DAC with a Headphone Out" :  NAGRA HD DAC, TotalDAC D1-Dual (or Mono) &  DAVE.  Who will win ?


 
 That depends on how one defines best - if best is defined as transparency and musicality then Dave will win easily. I am prepared to bet a brand new Dave against a bottle of Bollinger that Dave will win.
  
 In fact that's way too easy a proposition. I will bet a brand new Mojo against a bottle of beer that Mojo will be more musical and transparent than those DAC's.
  
 If anybody wants to challenge me on this, then PM me, but you will need to bring one of those DAC's (or any other reference class DAC's) to Carmarthen, Wales. Plus a bottle of beer and a bottle of Bollinger.
  
 Rob


----------



## analogmusic

I have compared the Hugo to some very hi-end and expensive digital sources, and the Hugo sounded better to my ears.
  
 In fact the Hugo with very basic interconnects still sounded better than the best of another brand with some pretty expensive interconnects.
  
 So I confidently expect Rob to win any challenge with best digital sources you could think of.


----------



## lovethatsound

rob watts said:


> That depends on how one defines best - if best is defined as transparency and musicality then Dave will win easily. I am prepared to bet a brand new Dave against a bottle of Bollinger that Dave will win.
> 
> In fact that's way too easy a proposition. I will bet a brand new Mojo against a bottle of beer that Mojo will be more musical and transparent than those DAC's.
> 
> ...


How about 4 cans of Guinness Rob?


----------



## Rob Watts

My preference would be a bottle of Crwr Blasus, micro brewed locally in a village pub...


----------



## musicday

Is Dave suitable for headphones like Stax 009?
Or they will sound best from a electrostatic amplifier.
Have anyone tried this combo?


----------



## smial1966

This may be of interest to UK members that have pre-ordered DAVE from their Chord dealer - 

"Just spoke to my Chord Rep, they are still shipping out demo units to dealers, this should be done by mid week then they are going to focus on customer orders which they are still hopeful of getting yours to me before Christmas".

- above received today from Paul at hifi lounge. 

So hopefully those of us in the UK that pre-ordered it will enjoy a DAVE inspired Christmas this year!


----------



## Sonic77

My rep said no units will be shipped between Christmas and January 12, 2016, so i will receive mine sometime after that. I assume some people will get theirs before or by Christmas i don't know for sure.


----------



## brightonjel

Apropos headphone matching, I was just reading the Hugo TT review in Sereophile (Nov. 2015 ... it takes me a while to catch up!)  The reviewer preferred the Audeze LCD-X to the Sennheiser HD800s for headphone listening.  YMMV, of course, but just FYI.  The reviewer also tried Grado, but no mention of electrostatics or planars. 
  
 (I also read the update review of the PS Audio PerfectWave DSD.  The most interesting part was where the writer, based on an interview with Ted Smith, the designer, said, "A lot of the FPGA work is contouring the low-level noise and minimizing any interaction or modulation of the digital output signals".  In other words, it seems that there is a general appreciation at least of the key design issues Rob emphasizes, albeit in the context of a different approach, namely blanket conversion of all input data to DSD after up-sampling.)
  
 John


----------



## Kakki

rob watts said:


> Absolutely, and I spent a lot of time researching and listening in the 1980's why metal/metal interfaces, solder, passive components etc make a big difference to the sound.
> 
> Its a bit complex, as RF characteristics, dielectric absorption (caps), small signal non-linearity, resistor non-linearity and resistor thermal non-linearity all have an influence to the final sound quality. So I could spend all day talking about it.
> 
> ...


 
 Rob, thank you for your comments and explanations! It is really good to know that all Chord products from Dave to Mojo are manufactured with advanced and reliable process that enhances sound quality!


----------



## MacedonianHero

musicday said:


> Is Dave suitable for headphones like Stax 009?
> Or they will sound best from a electrostatic amplifier.
> Have anyone tried this combo?


 
 Sorry, the Dave, (or any non-electrostatic amplifier) will drive the 009s (or any Stax). They ONLY work with dedicated electrostatic amps. You can however use the Dave as a DAC to feed that electrostatic amp. I use the very excellent Hugo TT as a DAC to feed my Liquid Lightning 2 (dedicated e-stat amp).


----------



## paulchiu

Has the Chord Dave been tested or reviewed by any major audio publication?
 Thanks


----------



## rkt31

any link yet for the user manual of dave ?


----------



## mjdutton

rkt31 said:


> any link yet for the user manual of dave ?


 
 I had an email from Colin at Chord to saying  "Currently our DAVE manual is in some Mac publisher format, it is a sizeable 18mb! Our guy who sorts these things is back in the office tomorrow so will be sorting a web version as soon as possible."


----------



## audiobill

paulchiu said:


> Has the Chord Dave been tested or reviewed by any major audio publication?
> Thanks


 
 Not yet to my knowledge, but I'm sure that some will be upcoming. You have to keep in mind that the production version was just recently released.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Its interesting, the tempo of everything actually sounds faster, such is the bounce and drive of music played through the Dave dac. Its very alive on anything with a rythme. (I must drag out a Ska album. Could be fun. 
  
 If I were sitting at a DAW right now I would swear I had accidentally set the tempo 2-3 bpm faster. I know it is not but thats the impression I get. If this is the product of greater timing accuracy it is little wonder Vinyl lovers have decried digital for so long.
  
 On the subject of overall musicality I cannot stress enough how important it is to a) Set your speakers up properly if you own 3 ways. This is critical imo and b) Use your most musical power cable with Dave. Different companies understand power flow better than others in my experience and price is not the arbiter of excellence in this respect. I have just pulled out a Circa £2000 power cable that could not live with my 10 year old favourite in regard to musicality. Shockingly different to the point that anyone would notice imo.
  
 Set the speakers up correctly, use a musical power chord and it is hard to imagine any dac bettering this level of musicality ever.........but then again HiFi always has a habit of coming back to haunt us when we make such statements.


----------



## Mython

daveredref-iii said:


> .... I have just pulled out a Circa £2000 power cable that could not live with my 10 year old favourite in regard to musicality. Shockingly different to the point that anyone would notice imo.


 
  
  
 Hmmmm.... I'm not convinced it's a good thing for power cable to be _'shocking'_ to the point that anyone would notice!


----------



## smial1966

Please share your favourite power cable with us as it's always useful to know what ancillaries have synergy with DAVE - speaking as a future owner awaiting his unit. Thanks. 




daveredref-iii said:


> Its interesting, the tempo of everything actually sounds faster, such is the bounce and drive of music played through the Dave dac. Its very alive on anything with a rythme. (I must drag out a Ska album. Could be fun.
> 
> If I were sitting at a DAW right now I would swear I had accidentally set the tempo 2-3 bpm faster. I know it is not but thats the impression I get. If this is the product of greater timing accuracy it is little wonder Vinyl lovers have decried digital for so long.
> 
> ...


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Mython
 I know what you are saying but I am comparing probably the worst I have heard to the best I have heard. I had another cable in which was fine but not as good as my favourite which seems to assist musicality to every make I have every plugged it into. I have heard £250 cables that have been very musical in the past. I am just looking to get the best out of the equipment I use tbh.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Audience are the most musical power cables I have heard. Though they have been upgraded (and cost much more) since I bought 10 yrs ago the old one still seems to work the magic. Buyers must be happy with them because finding them second hand in the UK is nigh impossible.


----------



## lovethatsound

daveredref-iii said:


> Audience are the most musical power cables I have heard. Though they have been upgraded (and cost much more) since I bought 10 yrs ago the old one still seems to work the magic. Buyers must be happy with them because finding them second hand in the UK is nigh impossible.


Hi dave 
Can you tell me what your main source is feeding your DAVE?


----------



## musicday

Also  Dave I would like to know what headphones have you used with DAVE and can you please describe the sound.
 Not all of us are interested in speakers. Thank you.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

LTS
 Everything is Red Book from the Red Reference III but I am reading and learning about HiRez setups with a view to buying in the not too distant future. I really do rate Red Book through Dave but one cannot help wondering what higher resolution would bring (particularly in ease of flow).
  
 musicman
 Sorry I do not listen through headphones.
  
  
*Guys I would be interested in your experience with good USB cables for streaming. Are they as good as AES or Coax for this purpose?*


----------



## smial1966

I have had very good results with a USB cable from Rob at - http://www.curiouscables.com - and I know that he's gaining recognition for producing excellent cables at comparatively reasonable prices. Part of his design 'philosophy' is to separate the power and data lines, use appropriate shielding and excellent quality wire. 

For wont of a better expression and at the risk of incurring the cable refuseniks wrath, my Curious Cables USB lead is the most 'musical' that I've yet heard. 




daveredref-iii said:


> LTS
> Everything is Red Book from the Red Reference III but I am reading and learning about HiRez setups with a view to buying in the not too distant future. I really do rate Red Book through Dave but one cannot help wondering what higher resolution would bring (particularly in ease of flow).
> 
> musicman
> ...


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Smial
 Thanks for the feedback.
  
 I would agree with Mython btw


----------



## Jawed

brightonjel said:


> (I also read the update review of the PS Audio PerfectWave DSD.  The most interesting part was where the writer, based on an interview with Ted Smith, the designer, said, "A lot of the FPGA work is contouring the low-level noise and minimizing any interaction or modulation of the digital output signals".  In other words, it seems that there is a general appreciation at least of the key design issues Rob emphasizes, albeit in the context of a different approach, namely blanket conversion of all input data to DSD after up-sampling.)



I followed you down the rabbit hole and discovered something truly dumbfounding:

http://www.psaudio.com/forum/directstream-all-about-it/biggest-single-upgrade-just-released/#p31820



> [...]But I was embarrassed that JA [John Atkinson, Stereophile measurements guy] found those problems instead of us so I ordered a new scope that was optimized for audio and had 48dB more resolution in the audio band.
> 
> Something Paul brought up when we were thinking about how best to address the low level distortion reminded me of a tradeoff in the FPGA we'd settled on quite a while back on a prototype board – much to my surprise with the new scope I could clearly see changes in distortion as I tried different tradeoffs.



I dunno, deciding to invest in a decent oscilloscope after you've launched your product is just bizarre.


----------



## Jawed

daveredref-iii said:


> Its interesting, the tempo of everything actually sounds faster, such is the bounce and drive of music played through the Dave dac. Its very alive on anything with a rythme. (I must drag out a Ska album. Could be fun.



In my experience: fast things get faster and the slow things get slower :atsmile:


----------



## Beolab

jawed said:


> I followed you down the rabbit hole and discovered something truly dumbfounding:
> 
> http://www.psaudio.com/forum/directstream-all-about-it/biggest-single-upgrade-just-released/#p31820
> I dunno, deciding to invest in a decent oscilloscope after you've launched your product is just bizarre.




That i find most hilarious !! 

This states that they do not always know what they are doing when they program a FPGA code if they dont even can messaure it before they relese their DAC. 

Its like when i e-mailed to MSB support if the have implemend any SQ performance changes from sw 1.1 to the latest 1.7 ? 
They replayed that they where not certen if they have implemend any sound SQ tweaks in the newer SWś , so i replayed if he could check this with someone who know this. 

The fast answer from Jonathan Gullman who is the developer and programmer of the SWś at MSB , and he didn't know or remember , so who do then know this i asked? 

He replayed that the was consulting other external specialists that program their SW's in some cases. 

So i think that Chord my be the only company that wrights their own SW code, and got an edge on MSB, but do not make their own FPGA boards. Here MSB have an edge on Chord maybe.


----------



## paulchiu

jawed said:


> I followed you down the rabbit hole and discovered something truly dumbfounding:
> 
> http://www.psaudio.com/forum/directstream-all-about-it/biggest-single-upgrade-just-released/#p31820
> I dunno, deciding to invest in a decent oscilloscope after you've launched your product is just bizarre.


 
  
 a decent oscilloscope these days will cost more than a car.  A great one more than half a million dollars.


----------



## rkt31

I have used power cords made from furutech bulk power cables and furutech plugs. believe me these can beat even the most expensive readymade power cords of any brands. it was about $300 and the dealer compared it with $2000 cardas one and furutech easily bettered that in airiness and transparency !


----------



## brightonjel

Ha - that's funny!  I hadn't seen that.  If nothing else, I guess it just goes to show how fast digital techniques have produced solutions that have outstripped earlier analogue-based reproduction chains, to the point where a very significant 48db of extra measurement headroom is required.  Completely supports Rob's discussion of still finding improvement with 48 bit noise shapers offering 300bd of reduction!  And speaking of that, I just today read in the latest Stereophile (yup, finally caught up: Jan 2016 issue) a mention of Dave in the Industry Update section.  Alas, I think things got a bit lost in translation somewhere, despite the usually well-informed copy one finds in that magazine.
  
 The writer cites the price as $16,000 in the US, but I think that's Dave plus stand, so not really the number one might expect for just Dave which I believe is $13k.  Next up, "Xilinx" came out as "Xylex" in a discussion of the FPGA technology.  Lastly, and I'll quote the next bit, "This chip feeds a new, 20-element, pulse-array DAC with second-order analog noiseshaper."  Well, kind of.  If I remember Rob's presentation correctly, the analogue output stage is where a novel second-order noise-shaping design is featured, whereas the digital noise shapers themselves are 17th order, 48-bit implementations.
  
 Anyway, nice to see the first mentions in the press coming along - even if they are a bit mixed-up - and doubtless we'll see actual reviews in the coming months too. Until then, we just have to keep bugging DaveRedRef-III!
  
 John


----------



## Mython

jawed said:


> brightonjel said:
> 
> 
> > (I also read the update review of the PS Audio PerfectWave DSD.  The most interesting part was where the writer, based on an interview with Ted Smith, the designer, said, "A lot of the FPGA work is contouring the low-level noise and minimizing any interaction or modulation of the digital output signals".  In other words, it seems that there is a general appreciation at least of the key design issues Rob emphasizes, albeit in the context of a different approach, namely blanket conversion of all input data to DSD after up-sampling.)
> ...


 
  
  
 Oh, I dunno - I actually find that kind of candour refreshing. I respect an engineer being open about overlooking something, being embarrassed about it, and learning from his/her oversight or mistake.
  
 No shame in that at all.


----------



## smial1966

There's really no harm in posting this info in an audio forum as HMRC aren't going to pursue an Australian cable maker for a few lost pounds in VAT. But redacted info anyway, so please do the same with your earlier post. Thanks.
  
 Quote:


mython said:


> It never ceases to amaze me, the number of Head-fiers who publicly post such delicate information in public threads.
> 
> Strewth...
> 
> ...


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

rkt31
 I haven't tried that make, only their connectors. They may well be very good. I have had similar experience from other makes too and so long as they do not negatively affect musicality I see no reason to pay more than necessary.
  
 In this respect I think many highly priced power chords are priced as based upon their shielding capability as well as low noise floor. I have found the Dave Dac HF filter to be pretty good and it has negated such concerns for my system leaving me to focus on the cables twhich best enhance musicality.In this respect Dave has probably saved me money on power considerations.


----------



## mjdutton

daveredref-iii said:


> Its interesting, the tempo of everything actually sounds faster, such is the bounce and drive of music played through the Dave dac. Its very alive on anything with a rythme. (I must drag out a Ska album. Could be fun.
> 
> If I were sitting at a DAW right now I would swear I had accidentally set the tempo 2-3 bpm faster. I know it is not but thats the impression I get. If this is the product of greater timing accuracy it is little wonder Vinyl lovers have decried digital for so long.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 I'm planning to demo the DAVE dac shortly, but your comments about tempo worry me grateful.  Products that change the tempo of any music are usually bad new.  What is the rest of your system?


----------



## Mavwong

If you have chance try a 2m Ansuz USB diamond cable.
  
 proven to be better than LH 10G.
  
  
  
 Quote:


daveredref-iii said:


> LTS
> Everything is Red Book from the Red Reference III but I am reading and learning about HiRez setups with a view to buying in the not too distant future. I really do rate Red Book through Dave but one cannot help wondering what higher resolution would bring (particularly in ease of flow).
> 
> musicman
> ...


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

mjdutton - *"your comments about tempo worry me"*
  
 Please re-read my comments I said I know it is not changing the tempo. It just sounds that way on up tempo music. This is as a result of Dave Dacs superior timing giving the music a lift. It is presenting the performance closer to how it was recorded.
  
 Chain: Chord Red Reference III - Chord Dave Dac - Chord SPM 1200 MKII - Sonus Faber Olympica III loudspeakers


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks Mavwong - *"If you have chance try a 2m Ansuz USB diamond cable.*
  
*proven to be better than LH 10G."*


----------



## Jiffi32

smial1966 said:


> I have had very good results with a USB cable from Rob at - http://www.curiouscables.com - and I know that he's gaining recognition for producing excellent cables at comparatively reasonable prices. Part of his design 'philosophy' is to separate the power and data lines, use appropriate shielding and excellent quality wire.
> 
> For wont of a better expression and at the risk of incurring the cable refuseniks wrath, my Curious Cables USB lead is the most 'musical' that I've yet heard.1​+


 
 +1 with curious cables!!
 I am using it with a HUGO and it is the most musical usb cable i have heard compared to other cables. Rob does a 30 day money back trial too so no risk.
 Its helping me with my Dave withdrawal. while i'm busy saving


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

mython said:


> Oh, I dunno - I actually find that kind of candour refreshing. *I respect an engineer being open about overlooking something, being embarrassed about it, and learning from his/her oversight or mistake.*
> 
> *No shame in that at all.*


 
  
 As an Engineer....... A++ with Mython's comment although would say oversight rather than a mistake.     We all over look something at times even the best of us i.e. Einstein, Newton, Maxwell, Da Vinci, Galileo, etc, etc all overlooked some of their theories which years later were proven to be exactly correct.
  
 Any person willing to dedicate their time, energy and effort for the better of mankind deserves full respect.......Problem is people who don't undertake such amazing journey's are very quick to criticise somebody who has.....enough said on this subject.


----------



## mjdutton

daveredref-iii said:


> mjdutton - *"your comments about tempo worry me"*
> 
> Please re-read my comments I said I know it is not changing the tempo. It just sounds that way on up tempo music. This is as a result of Dave Dacs superior timing giving the music a lift. It is presenting the performance closer to how it was recorded.
> 
> Chain: Chord Red Reference III - Chord Dave Dac - Chord SPM 1200 MKII - Sonus Faber Olympica III loudspeakers


 

 Thank you for your reply.  My experience is that products that change the tempo don't have great timing, making the music drag or gobble.  I will wait until my demo of DAVE Dac before I comment any more.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Today has seen the biggest change in sound during the burn-in process (around 170 hrs). Bass performance, separation, dynamics and an analogue smoothness have kicked in. Will decribe in more detail my observations in relation to this change in due course. Taking my time as I want to be balanced and thorough.
  
 It will be an interesting Christmas here as I will not be mentioning the new piece of HiFi equipment. I want people to hear music reverberating throughout the house rather than have people sitting in the HiFi room. I want to witness the effect on them over the period. There is no doubt in my mind the musical and dynamic attributes of Dave carry outside the room.


----------



## gnomen

Recently I had the chance to do an extended audition of the Chord range, Mojo, Hugo, TT and Dave, courtesy of Hi-Fi Lounge in Bedford, UK.   Been meaning to share some notes here as a thank you to the many posters who have helped me with their comments.
  
 To go straight to the conclusion -- my conclusion, at least -- the pick of the range is actually the Hugo TT, the somewhat overlooked second child in the family.  I had read somewhere on Head-Fi Rob Watts saying the difference from the TT to DAVE is such "you do not even need to A/B, it is immediately apparent".  So I went to the audition expecting to hear an obvious difference when, actually, the difference was quite subtle and most of the time I had to strain to hear any difference at all.  It was only apparent in some parts of some tracks and even then a minimal improvement at best. 
  
 On the other hand, the improvement of the TT over the original Hugo I found quite noticeable.  As if the TT was what the Hugo would have been if the restrictions on size etc. had been removed (which is the point, I guess).  More of the same lovely Hugo characteristics, just better in every dimension.  Compared to the Hugo I found the Mojo sounding similarly detailed, but comparatively thinner with a narrower sound stage.  Obviously these comments ignore cost and value for money.  Each product is a very strong competitor in its price category (at least based on UK prices, which tend to be relatively lower than the price of imports from the US and elsewhere).  I could be happy with the Mojo or the Hugo as a portable solution that easily outperforms others I have heard, I could be completely happy with the TT.  It had absolutely no vices and continued to delight with every kind of source material I threw at it.
  
 As to source material, it ranged from complex, large scale orchestral and choral works (think Mahler's 8th), to intimate recordings of acoustic instruments (violin, piano, guitar) and voice, highly engineered pop tracks (think Fleetwood Mac) and some HD audiophile tracks (e.g. Chesky).   Devices were driven from a Macbook Air using Pure Music/iTunes signal generation.  All the listening was done with my own Sennheiser HD800 headphones.  The USB interconnect was Chord's own for the DAVE and TT, and a simple, short interconnect provided by the store for Hugo and Mojo (I did wonder if the simpler cable hampered the performance of the Hugo and the Mojo but did not get a chance to experiment further).
  
 There are many reasons why I might revise these judgements under different circumstances: if I had days of familiarity rather than hours, being more relaxed than I can normally be as a visitor to a hi-fi store (although Paul and Wendy were most hospitable), listening via speakers or other headphones, or just on a different day in a different mood.  So I offer these comments for what can be learned from one intensive session.
  
 I am not in the market to buy DAVE but if I were I would be comparing it against tougher challengers.  As part of my search for a new DAC I heard several strong competitors, the best of which was the TAD DA-1000 (http://www.whathifi.com/tad/da1000/review).  The TAD is 50% dearer again than the DAVE (in the UK) and IMHO was in a higher class again.  Of course, I would need to spend a proportionate amount on speakers, amps, etc. to do it justice.  Yes, the result would be amazing if I could afford all that, which I can't.
  
 But somehow, regardless of money, the TT is one of those hi-fi products that just hits the sweet spot -- able and assured with any kind of source material, revealing and engaging without ever being harsh, musical & forgiving without being over-smooth, rhythmic, fast, and crisp (as DaveRedRef remarks re the DAVE) -- I found myself repeatedly toe-tapping and humming along -- distracted from listening to the equipment by listening to the music before I could stop myself.  The Hugo TT is a very complete and self-confident performer and a massive credit to its designer.
  
 I look forward to seeing the responses others have as the DAVE becomes more widely available for audition.  Thanks for taking the time to read.


----------



## raypin

mmm.....whew! Thanks, man......for saving me some big bucks, meaning I'm keeing my Chord TT and nix the DAVE "upgrade."


----------



## lovethatsound

raypin said:


> mmm.....whew! Thanks, man......for saving me some big bucks, meaning I'm keeing my Chord TT and nix the DAVE "upgrade."


A word of advice,Always listen to something yourself,before you rule it out .Their's lot's of people who say the chord Hugo sounds the same as the chord TT.Use your own ears.


----------



## AndrewH13

lovethatsound said:


> A word of advice,Always listen to something yourself,before you rule it out .Their's lot's of people who say the chord Hugo sounds the same as the chord TT.Use your own ears.




Again, most of those people hadn't heard TT, but merely said it sounds the same because of the same Gate Array. To me the TT was substantially better ...... unfortunately!


----------



## TokenGesture

Hugo does not sound the same as the TT , TT is definitely better


----------



## Kamil21

gnomen said:


> Recently I had the chance to do an extended audition of the Chord range, Mojo, Hugo, TT and Dave, courtesy of Hi-Fi Lounge in Bedford, UK.   Been meaning to share some notes here as a thank you to the many posters who have helped me with their comments.
> 
> To go straight to the conclusion -- my conclusion, at least -- the pick of the range is actually the Hugo TT, the somewhat overlooked second child in the family.  I had read somewhere on Head-Fi Rob Watts saying the difference from the TT to DAVE is such "you do not even need to A/B, it is immediately apparent".  So I went to the audition expecting to hear an obvious difference when, actually, the difference was quite subtle and most of the time I had to strain to hear any difference at all.  It was only apparent in some parts of some tracks and even then a minimal improvement at best.
> 
> ...




One thing to remember is that compared to DAVE, the TT has a battery power supply that probably isolates it from the mains. 

DAVE has a switched mode power supply which might make it more sensitive to the power cord used, or the way the other devices are connected. IMO this can degrade the sound significantly for some listeners.

Horses for courses!


----------



## Jawed

paulchiu said:


> a decent oscilloscope these days will cost more than a car.  A great one more than half a million dollars.



I'd expect that excuse to be relevant to a startup doing a kickstarter. Certainly not for a company that's been around for decades.



mython said:


> Oh, I dunno - I actually find that kind of candour refreshing. I respect an engineer being open about overlooking something, being embarrassed about it, and learning from his/her oversight or mistake.



Look at Fig.7 PS Audio DirectStream, spectrum with noise and spuriae of dithered 1kHz tone at –120dBFS with 24-bit data via USB (left channel blue, right red) (20dB/vertical div.).

http://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-perfectwave-directstream-da-processor-measurements#VhBLL7OYk8FXvboB.99

Notice the complete lack of the 1Khz signal? That's about as severe a mistake as you can make in a "high-res" DAC.



> But when the bit depth was increased to 24, which was correctly indicated on the front-panel display, the noise floor dropped at most by 5dB, suggesting that the DirectStream DAC has only about 17 bits of resolution. This graph was taken with AES/EBU data; I got the same result with USB data, and though fig.6 suggests that the PS Audio DAC should just be able to resolve a 24-bit tone at –120dBFS, spectral analysis showed that it couldn't (figs.7 and 8). Its higher-than-expected noise floor meant that the PS Audio couldn't correctly resolve the waveform of an undithered 16-bit tone at exactly –90.31dBFS (fig.9).






bonesy jonesy said:


> As an Engineer.......



Speaking as someone with an engineering degree: the first thing you learn is how to measure.

Anyway, PS Audio did improve measured performance substantially with later updates and people generally seem to love it.


----------



## Jawed

Very interesting report. I'm not likely to seriously consider buying DAVE soon (only had TT for a few weeks) but I can't help wondering whether the DAVE you listened to had burnt in...



gnomen said:


> Devices were driven from a Macbook Air using Pure Music/iTunes signal generation.



Does that mean the playback software was doing sample rate conversion?


----------



## Beolab

I think it most have bin something in the chain that flatened all sources out to sound allmost the same, i would guess the HiFi store used a separate pre-amp to switch btw the diffrent DAC's and that don't give the DAVE sophisticated and sensitive micro details / dept and more full justice, because you need it to be direct coupled with the power amps for a Direct untouched sound .


----------



## Mavwong

I always said this, it's a bliss if something more expensive doesn't sound better than what you currently owned.
  
 When I audit hugo and hugo TT for comparison. I use HD600. it doesn't sound better with the TT, thus I bought the hugo back then. I save huge part of my wallet.
  
 Similarly, my JH Rox sound the same driving from ipod direct or through hugo.
  
 With Dave, I choose to audit with HEK, and the diff is pretty huge compare with Hugo.
  
 Different eqpt give different result, different people give different opinion.


----------



## MacedonianHero

mavwong said:


> I always said this, it's a bliss if something more expensive doesn't sound better than what you currently owned.
> 
> When I audit hugo and hugo TT for comparison. I use HD600. it doesn't sound better with the TT, thus I bought the hugo back then. I save huge part of my wallet.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Try listening to the TT in balanced mode feeding another amp (like the GS-X) and compare the DAC section to the Hugo with say the HD800s or SR009s...the differences are quite profound. These differences are pretty much the same when also using the amplifier sections from both units too. Not sure how the HD600s would fair, but with say the HD800s, SR009s, SR007s, HE1000s, etc... the TT is quite spectacular.
  
 With the HD650 or HD600s, the differences might be wasted on them somewhat?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I have the Red Reference III and if you check the specs it is slightly better than the QBD76 HDSD but pretty much identical in most aspects. I can tell you the Dave plays in a completely different league to these products. A very rarefied league indeed. The TT is an excellent value dac with great credentials at a price, (as the test findings showed in the Stereophile review) but the specs, build and price alone tell you it doesn't live in the same world as the Dave. It is the same designer and manufacturer. Up the budget by 160% and you will always get a better performance even if the process were the same (which it isn't because the taps alone have risen by 500%).

To my mind the most logical explanation of someone saying they can't hear a difference between Hugo TT and Dave is either a weakness in the setup they listened through or too much background noise at the event or a limitation reached in ones own hearing capability (no offence meant). If you genuinely cannot hear a difference under good listening conditions then that is good reason not to buy but anyone claiming the £3k product is as good as the £8k product from the same manufacturer is being unrealistic.


----------



## Mython

I think a HUGE factor in the disparity in opinions, expressed in the preceding page or 2, is that the very things DAVE is said to excel in, such as depth cues, are not best-transduced to the human auditory system by headphones.
  
 DaveRedRef is listening via loudspeakers.
  
 IMO, that is absolutely no coincidence.
  
 Rather than being a weakness of the DAC, I consider it a weakness of headphones in general.
  
 I appreciate that that sentiment will not be comfortably received by a forum of headphone fanatics, but c'est la vie...


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

That is one aspect Mython but making comparisons at a show is not a good way to do things. 

Once run-in, and I would allow 200 hrs before seriously coming to any conclusions, Dave presents music in a very real world natural way. There is a resolution and density that I have not heard before via hifi. It's still hifi of course but if a recording is done right the images are very believable. It sounds very natural and unconstrained. Very un-Redbook.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

If I was to say the the key aspects, from a musical sense, that sets Dave out from other components I have heard it is timing and micro dynamics of vocal performances. Have you ever turned up at a pub or venue where the vocalist is really up and kicking already? You can hear it from outside and the performance excites you to the point that you can't wait to get inside and watch them perform. You are missing something special. You understandably want to be present and part of the performance. Well that's what it is like when you are in other parts of the house and Dave is playing. A track comes on where the vocalist is delivering and even from two rooms away you know that something special is happening. It is alive and believable and you are compelled to stop what you are doing and get in front of that performance.

It's not conducive to getting work done or writing up a review of Dave. 

I've got Elvis performing in the next room for goodness sake! Am I going to ignore that experience? Of course not....


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Best to write in sound bites........

What is going on here that is special in hifi terms is that normally with hifi it is the clarity that will have us listening intently but this isn't about our ears as much as it is about our body. Detail, melody are all about the mind but timing, dynamics and rhythms are more about the body and it is Not a desire to listen to definition or imaging that compels me to stop what I am doing and go to the performance, it is far more basic than that. I am aware that my body craves it. Just as it does when I am standing outside a venue and I can hear an exciting performance already underway. This is music. Real music being perfectly reproduced. I would say "be aware of what your body is telling you when you listen to Dave because that is where the real magic lies".


----------



## Mython

daveredref-iii said:


> I've got Elvis performing in the next room for goodness sake! Am I going to ignore that experience? Of course not....


 
  
  
 If you have it, try Buddy Holly's _'True Love Ways'_...


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Yes Mython what special recording that is. One of my favourites


----------



## gnomen

raypin said:


> mmm.....whew! Thanks, man......for saving me some big bucks, meaning I'm keeing my Chord TT and nix the DAVE "upgrade."


 

 LOL -- you should be so lucky.  Maybe after you listen to DAVE your view will change 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 How are you enjoying the TT?


----------



## gnomen

kamil21 said:


> One thing to remember is that compared to DAVE, the TT has a battery power supply that probably isolates it from the mains.
> 
> DAVE has a switched mode power supply which might make it more sensitive to the power cord used, or the way the other devices are connected. IMO this can degrade the sound significantly for some listeners.
> 
> Horses for courses!


 

 Agree this might be a factor.   A comparison might be the Bel Canto 3.5 with VBS ('Virtual Battery Supply') power supply, which was noticeable better than the same DAC without VBS.  All of these electrical devices are taking a straight signal and modulating it with information.  The 'straigher' and purer the original signal, the more successful the modulated signal will be, I presume.


----------



## gnomen

jawed said:


> Very interesting report. I'm not likely to seriously consider buying DAVE soon (only had TT for a few weeks) but I can't help wondering whether the DAVE you listened to had burnt in...
> Does that mean the playback software was doing sample rate conversion?


 

 No.  I had Pure Music set to NOS -- no upsampling -- so the native bit rate is supplied to the DAC.


----------



## gnomen

beolab said:


> I think it most have bin something in the chain that flatened all sources out to sound allmost the same, i would guess the HiFi store used a separate pre-amp to switch btw the diffrent DAC's and that don't give the DAVE sophisticated and sensitive micro details / dept and more full justice, because you need it to be direct coupled with the power amps for a Direct untouched sound .


 

 Quite possibly.  I did wonder about that.  Just not sure what it could have been.  The chain consisted of: MacbookAir>iTunes(ALAC)>PureMusic>USBcable>DAC>HD800s.
 The HD800s have the original single-ended Sennheiser cable.  There was no pre-amp or power amp involved.
  
 Maybe lack of burn-in.  Maybe the differences don't show up well via headphones -- any headphones -- as Mython says a few posts after yours.
  
 Important to say, the DAVE still sounded very, very good!
  
 I would still like to hear from others who have actually listened.  DaveRedRef gives some very compelling descriptions.  And I agree the whole Rob Watts approach gives that visceral, in-body experience.  It's not really about resolution or sound stage, but about a lot more.  Would love to walk into that room and listen to Elvis with him!


----------



## ThatPhil

Finally some pictures of the black version.
 https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.749301988535322.1073742124.189093477889512&type=3


----------



## Sonic77

thatphil said:


> Finally some pictures of the black version.
> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.749301988535322.1073742124.189093477889512&type=3


 

 Thanks, that's the color I ordered.


----------



## Beolab

sonic77 said:


> Thanks, that's the color I ordered.




Me too !


----------



## Beolab

DAVE 

Operation instructions 

http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/files/Dave%20Manual.pdf


----------



## Sonic77

beolab said:


> Me too !


 

 Cool!


----------



## Sonic77

beolab said:


> DAVE
> 
> Operation instructions
> 
> http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/files/Dave%20Manual.pdf


 

 Short and sweet, very simple.


----------



## audiobill

After reading the manual the only thing that bothers me about DAVE's operation is having to manually select either the PCM+ or DSD+ filter to optimize PCM or DSD playback respectively. It would have been nice if there was an automatic mode option where it would switch based upon the type of digital file being played, but maybe that wasn't possible since it has to reload the software which apparently takes about 20 seconds to complete. I also didn't see any mention of whether DSD has to be input as DoP or if it accepts the DSD bitstream directly.


----------



## Beolab

Heard that DAVE 2 will have a estimated 
one million taps if you look at Moors law in four years time, then it most be almost a lifelike sound i can pretend  

@DaveRedRef-III

Have you spend some time with headphones and switch btw the cross-feed filters, and did you like any of them ? 

Then the HF filter setting , does it affect the sound negative or positive? I can only assume that if you have a power regenerator you set it to OFF otherwise always to On. 

 i hope the small Hugo TT remote will work with DAVE ? 

Most likely its the same IR code for volume up and down, but i just need it confirmed.


----------



## Rob Watts

audiobill said:


> After reading the manual the only thing that bothers me about DAVE's operation is having to manually select either the PCM+ or DSD+ filter to optimize PCM or DSD playback respectively. It would have been nice if there was an automatic mode option where it would switch based upon the type of digital file being played, but maybe that wasn't possible since it has to reload the software which apparently takes about 20 seconds to complete. I also didn't see any mention of whether DSD has to be input as DoP or if it accepts the DSD bitstream directly.


 
 Believe me I tried - spent about a month trying to make it seamless - but it had to be click free and not capable of triggering DC protection in DC coupled power amps, and have a digital DC servo that was inaudible in operation with no change in SQ. This was the only way of making that happen.
  
 DSD is DoP or "native" mode using ASIO - indeed for DSD 512 native is the only way.  
  
 Rob


----------



## audiobill

Thanks very much for your reply Rob, your efforts and candor are very much appreciated!


----------



## rkt31

gone through the manual. the manual clearly explains everything. that hf filter was not mentioned anywhere in the previous discussions here. can anybody explains what exactly the hf filter  does and how ?


----------



## Rob Watts

The HF filter is a sharp cutoff filter set to 60 kHz. The intention was to bandwidth limit high sample rate recordings - DXD and 384k have huge amounts of noise shaper noise from the ADC. This noise will degrade SQ by increasing noise floor modulation as the out of band noise creates intermodulation distortion with the wanted audio signal in the analogue electronics.
  
 Now it works very well, in using it makes it sound smoother and darker - exactly what you get from lower noise floor modulation. But the curious thing is that it also sounds better with 44.1 k - curious because the WTA filter typically has a stop band attenuation of 140 dB (worst case 120 dB). So out of band noise is very low with 44.1 k and I was not expecting a SQ change with the filter with CD. The filter is not something added, its just a different set of coefficients for the 16 FS to 256 FS WTA filter.
  
 Something else to look into in the future as this suggests that 140 dB (typical) stop band attenuation is not enough.
  
 Rob


----------



## rkt31

thanks Rob for the quick elaborate response !


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks for the HF filter explanation Rob. My experience with Dave confirms your conclusion. It does sound better to me with the filter on and I only use Redbook currently. I wondered if it was having an effect on the electrics because when turned on the sound is warmer and more natural.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Beolab
The HF filter does sound better to me, so I leave it on.

As mentioned earlier on the thread I do not listen via headphones. Sorry.

I do not have a generator. I use an Isotek synchro for hum, an Isotek Sigmas for Common and Differential mode and RFI noise. I also use Vertex AQ's which work passively to suppress RFI. I have yet to take the Sigmas out of the chain to see if it is actually necessary. I want to get used to the sound first and until yesterday it was still changing due to burn-in.


----------



## TheAttorney

What was the rationale for providing a surprisingly generous 4 BNC inputs, but no RCA?
 Even if BNC is considered the superior connector, surely one of the 4 could have been replaced by RCA, if only for convenience or comparative purposes?
  
 I raise this because my Nagra CD player has only RCA, XLR or optical digital outputs, and the RCA (connected to Yggy) gave a significantly better sound than XLR - against all my expectations.
 If it had BNC I'd use it, but it doesn't, so I can't..


----------



## Mavwong

Isotek Aquarious already pretty good but you have sigma!
  
 I am intended to get a sigma demo unit in my system as well.
  
  
  
 Quote:


daveredref-iii said:


> Beolab
> The HF filter does sound better to me, so I leave it on.
> 
> As mentioned earlier on the thread I do not listen via headphones. Sorry.
> ...


----------



## Beolab

Would be very inresting to hear som impressions based on the cross-feed filtering , wich one is to prefer, or is it just set it to off like in the Hugo?


----------



## lovethatsound

daveredref-iii said:


> Beolab
> The HF filter does sound better to me, so I leave it on.
> 
> As mentioned earlier on the thread I do not listen via headphones. Sorry.
> ...


Hi Dave
Could you tell me what cable you are using from your cd player to the Dave dac,or have you tried different cables?if so which one do you prefer?


----------



## Beolab

HiFi Lounge have not spend so much on power cables, but i think it sounds good nevertheless


----------



## PANURUS

I heard the Dave in a demo show. The first day 8 hours and the next days 3 hours.
  
 My conclusion after 5 minutes: I will have one in June.
  
 With Dave I can hear what the singer visualises when he vocalises the word.
  
 The intension that he put in a sentence is more clear.
 I understand the text like he sees it.
 I hear if he is sad or ironic or if he is just producing sounds.
  
 I hear the Dave with STAX SRS3170 and  Wireworld silver eliptic 450euro/m  and Gold 1800euro/m.
 With the Gold cable, it's magic. With the silver eliptic, good for 450 Euro.
 And the quality of this first price Stax is uncredible.
  
 But in each case, the most benefice of the Dave is on Voices.


----------



## musicday

Panurus,have you tried any other headphones with Dave other them PM3?
Thanks for your words.


----------



## PhilW

I just wish I had a demo unit. All of the DAVEs we have received have all been client's units.


----------



## smial1966

Phil,
  
 Are you able to divulge how many clients units you've received? As it'd be cool to know how many DAVE's have been released via Custom Cable and are now in the `wild'. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Quote:


philw said:


> I just wish I had a demo unit. All of the DAVEs we have received have all been client's units.


----------



## PANURUS

musicday said:


> Panurus,have you tried any other headphones with Dave other them PM3?
> Thanks for your words.




Yes. The Sennheizer HD800, the Grado GS1000e and the Stax SRS 3170. With the Stax, I have tested some WireWorld cable: the eclipe Gold and the eclipse silver. In november, I have listen the Grado and the Sennheizer with my Mojo.
So, my purpose the 5 december was not to evaluate the Dave with them. 
It was: 1. Has the HD800, with Dave, the little more acidity in voice that i do not like? YES. In january, i can listen the HD800S.
2. Is the Grado,with Dave, a more pleasant product that my PM-3? Yes, but the differences are reduced.
3. Is the low cost Stax, a better way and if Yes, which cable to use?
Yes, with the Stax for the first time i was discovering the quality of the Dave with a cable at 450 euro. It was so much better. After few seconds i change for a 1800 euro/m cable.My direct impression: a little bad feeling has disappeard. And at this moment, i begin to listen music. 
Bye bye streamer, cable, headphones, Dave and the rest.

I choose the Vangelis album: China. Directly go back near 1981. Is the DVD better that vinyl? With Dave, Yes for ever.

So i return to music. Now i can totally live the composition. Not a note come from a broken piano.

After that, for me the ultimate test: a vocal test in my language: french.

With Stax and Dave, i enter in the mind of the singer. I listen more that words. I see the pictures in his brain. I feel the word, in me at the good place, if he says: my hart.

So i can live the performance of the artist or the beauty of the notes with my mind in rest. Like meditation. The setup" dave + Stax" do not recall my mind.


----------



## lovethatsound

panurus said:


> Yes. The Sennheizer HD800, the Grado GS1000e and the Stax SRS 3170. With the Stax, I have tested some WireWorld cable: the eclipe Gold and the eclipse silver. In november, I have listen the Grado and the Sennheizer with my Mojo.
> So, my purpose the 5 december was not to evaluate the Dave with them.
> It was: 1. Has the HD800, with Dave, the little more acidity in voice that i do not like? YES. In january, i can listen the HD800S.
> 2. Is the Grado,with Dave, a more pleasant product that my PM-3? Yes, but the differences are reduced.
> ...


Try the hd800 with some Cardas clear cable,this really does bring your hd800 to life.


----------



## PANURUS

Thank you for the info.

Have you a link for better cable to use with oppo PM-3?


----------



## PhilW

a number


----------



## Jiffi32

lovethatsound said:


> Try the hd800 with some Cardas clear cable,this really does bring your hd800 to life.


 

 ​what sort of improvements does the cardas bring? i'm using HD800 with stock cable currently driven by my Hugo. and I don't find it bright


----------



## CallMeCynical

Been following this discussion thread for some time now waiting for feedback on how Dave units sounds. Finally received my Dave unit this week. Sat down in my favourate chair to put in some serious listening hours only to find my amp a developed a fault...Amp will need to back to Chord for repair. Well, it is over 10 years old now and has given many faultless hours of enjoyment! Seems that events are conspiring against me to listen to Dave 1st hand...

I did get to listen to a few tracks before the amp gave up the ghost. Perhaps my expectations for this product were just too high as what I heard was a slight improvement over the QBD76. There are of course many factors here - too numerous to write. One major factor of course being that the unit is brand new and requires some running in. However, now that the amp has entered into protection mode, I'm denied the ability to run the unit in through many listening hours. 

However, one thing that had crossed my mind was whether DaveRedRef who was feeding his power amp directly from Dave was really feeling the benefit minimised audio path. My amp is an integrated unit, which may robbing some of the transparency from Dave. 

The thing that perplexed me with Dave, which I flagged back Matt at Chord, concerned the indicated input data rate when hooked up my Blu transport unit in dual data mode (connected to BNC1 & 2). I found that Dave was showing 176.4kHz on BNC input 1 and 88.2kHz on BNC input 2. The 'D' symbol was showing on BNC1 which indicates Dual data input. This is counter intuative, in my view. Both inputs should show the same data rate. Also, it would appear that the Blu User Guide is giving misinformed info regarding the data rate out of BNC outputs in dual data mode. The UG states that with the data rate switch set in its bottom most position both channels give 176.4kHz data rate. Apparently, this is not so as 176.4kHz data rate represents the combined stereo data rate. Blu UG is very misleading here...This means that Blu transport actually gives max 88.2kHz dara rate per channel. Thought I share this info for those persons that have a Blu transport and are wondering how Dave responds in dual data mode input.

CallMeCynical


----------



## lovethatsound

jiffi32 said:


> ​what sort of improvements does the cardas bring? i'm using HD800 with stock cable currently driven by my Hugo. and I don't find it bright


Yes the stock cable is good,ive also been using the ch800s balance cable,and that's good as well.About 3 months ago i got to listen to some cardas clear,and i couldn't believe the difference it made,it's got a more open sound,a wider sound stage,better bass,better vocals,everything just sounds more natural.By the way I'm running the cardas clear balance from a hdvd800,the chord blu transport and the chord QBD76.To put it simply the cardas clear has took my hd800 to a different level,the draw back,it's not cheap and the cable can get a bit tangled up,but it's worth it.


----------



## Mython

In light of Rob's earlier discussion, in the Mojo thread, regarding soundstage depth (see quote below), the remarks about soundstage _width_ in this review of a different DAC make for interesting contrast:
  
 http://inearspace.com/2015/04/17/exogal-comet-dac-shooting-for-the-stars/
  
  


rob watts said:


> tkteo said:
> 
> 
> > To add onto the comments by xtr4:
> ...


----------



## Beolab

callmecynical said:


> Been following this discussion thread for some time now waiting for feedback on how Dave units sounds. Finally received my Dave unit this week. Sat down in my favourate chair to put in some serious listening hours only to find my amp a developed a fault...Amp will need to back to Chord for repair. Well, it is over 10 years old now and has given many faultless hours of enjoyment! Seems that events are conspiring against me to listen to Dave 1st hand...
> 
> I did get to listen to a few tracks before the amp gave up the ghost. Perhaps my expectations for this product were just too high as what I heard was a slight improvement over the QBD76. There are of course many factors here - too numerous to write. One major factor of course being that the unit is brand new and requires some running in. However, now that the amp has entered into protection mode, I'm denied the ability to run the unit in through many listening hours.
> 
> ...




Have Matt responded to your question yet? 

You mention just a little bit better than then QBD76HDSD, that is very controversial, but maybe the Blu set the bar with its old interpolating FPGA inside, so the DAVE have some problems to do wounders with an already upsampled signal. 

But according to Rob the DAVE should be miles better than the QBD76 , so maybe it was your amp that was near total failure that did not give you the full sound of DAVE is my 50 cents.


----------



## ecwl

callmecynical said:


> Been following this discussion thread for some time now waiting for feedback on how Dave units sounds. Finally received my Dave unit this week. Sat down in my favourate chair to put in some serious listening hours only to find my amp a developed a fault...Amp will need to back to Chord for repair. Well, it is over 10 years old now and has given many faultless hours of enjoyment! Seems that events are conspiring against me to listen to Dave 1st hand...
> 
> I did get to listen to a few tracks before the amp gave up the ghost. Perhaps my expectations for this product were just too high as what I heard was a slight improvement over the QBD76. There are of course many factors here - too numerous to write. One major factor of course being that the unit is brand new and requires some running in. However, now that the amp has entered into protection mode, I'm denied the ability to run the unit in through many listening hours.
> 
> ...


 
  
 In anticipation of the Chord DAVE, I recently removed my Sanders preamplifier which I thought was superbly transparent and fed digitally volume controlled 24-bit signal directly to my Chord QBD76HDSD (which I know is super dangerous because if I screwed up, it'll blow the speakers). The added level of transparency and dynamics was quite astounding so I would not be surprised if the performance of Chord DAVE in any system would be heavily dependent on the transparency of the preamplifier and possibly to a lesser extent the power amplifier, just as Beolab is speculating here.
  
 As for the Blu issue, I'm just confused about the angst. There seems to be 2 concerns. So the first concern is what signal is being sent through BNC1 & 2. Well, normally, most modern DACs and transports would just send 176.4kHz stereo digital signal through a single BNC connection. Chord decided way back to use 2 cables for better signal integrity I presume. So either it is sending say the left channel at 176.4kHz with BNC1 & the right channel at 176.4kHz with BNC2 or it is splitting the 176.4kHz stereo digital signal into two 88.2kHz stereo digital signal and it is sending the two 88.2kHz stereo digital signals  through BNC1 & BNC2. You can call the signal on the BNC1 & BNC2 whatever you want, mono 176.4kHz or stereo 88.2kHz. But the bottomline is that proper 176.4kHz stereo digital signals are getting sent through the BNC1 & BNC2 cables into the DAC.
  
 The second concern seems to be related to the display. Blu is sending 176.4kHz stereo digital signal to the Chord DAVE via BNC1 & 2 and poster wants it to display BNC1 = 176.4kHz & BNC2 = 176.4kHz with the D? or BNC1 = 88.2kHz & BNC2 = 88.2kHz with the D? and Chord chose to display it as BNC1 = 176.4 kHz & BNC2 = 88.2kHz with the D. There are 3 ways to display the signal transfer, I'm sure every user will have their preference and claim one way to display the signal is superior to another, Chord just picked one way to display dual-channel. Not sure what the issue is if the signal is getting through intact. My strong suspicion is that Chord does not want users to accidentally select BNC2 and get noise because in order to recognize the dual channel signal, the user has to select BNC1. So BNC1 is receiving 88.2kHz stereo/176kHz mono signal and so is BNC2. Combined, they provide a stereo 176.4kHz signal and so when the user selects BNC1, the D is displayed with the 176.4kHz. To make sure the user does not select BNC2, it displays 88.2kHz because it's either a 176.4kHz mono signal or a 88.2kHz stereo signal.


----------



## Kakki

Rob, I have read the user manual of DAVE and have a question on the warning "DAVE MUST BE EARTHED AT ALL TIMES VIA ITS OWN MAINS LEAD.FAILURE TO DO THIS MAY BE HAZARDOUS."
  
 In Japan, the standard is type A plug and there is no pin that is connected to the earth. We only have live and neutral pins.
 Does DAVE still work correctly in this environment? Also, do we have any impact to the sound quality?


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes it needs to be earthed from a safety POV. But the PSU is a medical grade unit.
  
 I have used it unearthed on my travels, and it was OK though but this is from the SQ POV only. I agree with Chord unearthed may be hazardous though.
  
 Rob


----------



## analogmusic

interesting, is headphone usage not possible to judge Dave vs QBD76 performance.
  
  
 Quote:


callmecynical said:


> Been following this discussion thread for some time now waiting for feedback on how Dave units sounds. Finally received my Dave unit this week. Sat down in my favourate chair to put in some serious listening hours only to find my amp a developed a fault...Amp will need to back to Chord for repair. Well, it is over 10 years old now and has given many faultless hours of enjoyment! Seems that events are conspiring against me to listen to Dave 1st hand...
> 
> I did get to listen to a few tracks before the amp gave up the ghost. Perhaps my expectations for this product were just too high as what I heard was a slight improvement over the QBD76. There are of course many factors here - too numerous to write. One major factor of course being that the unit is brand new and requires some running in. However, now that the amp has entered into protection mode, I'm denied the ability to run the unit in through many listening hours.
> 
> ...


----------



## lovethatsound

It could be the user don't use headphones,lots of people will only use loud speakers.


----------



## bmichels

Since DAVE's upsampling is much more advanced than BLU, is it possible to have *BLU NOT upsampling, that is to say transmiting 16/44 to DAVE*, and then letting DAVE do all upsampling if needed ?


----------



## Kakki

rob watts said:


> Yes it needs to be earthed from a safety POV. But the PSU is a medical grade unit.
> 
> I have used it unearthed on my travels, and it was OK though but this is from the SQ POV only. I agree with Chord unearthed may be hazardous though.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Thank you for your answer. I'm relieved to hear that it is OK from the sound quality perspective.
 I may also ask the dealer how they treat the warning in the manual in Japan ... as usually it is difficult to have products correctly earthed in Japan because of the standard 2 pin plugs.


----------



## CallMeCynical

An update on Dave...After switching off the amp for a number of hours - usually I leave the amp permantly on - the unit powered up and I was able to listen to Dave for an extended period. I completely retract my previous statement that Dave is slightly better than the QBD76. This thing is increadable! It really is in a different league to QBD76. I was particularly impressed with the ability if the unit to give a very convey a very convincing bass guitar note. In fact, everything about the music that flows from his unit has to be heard to be fully appreciated. Vocals are projected so convincingly that it feels like the band/musicians are right there in the room. I listened to Van Morrison's Back ON Top CD, which, in my view, is a great example of an excellently recorded album. Dave projected a very convincing 3D sound stage as his vocals just projected out so convincingly, it felt like I could literally reach out and touch him. I was grinning from ear to ear track after track. I was able to follow individual instruments with ease such is the Dave transparency/resolution. The instruments sounded so much more life like and I particularly enjoyed the sax and bass guitar work in the tracks - again conveyed very convincingly. I cannot wait to run through my CD collection - to the extent that I had a somewhat sleepless night trying to prioritse which albums in my collection I would play first - assuming my amp will play ball...

Hats off to what Mr Watts has achieved here > a significant stepped improvement over QBD76. 

With regard to response Blu transport data rate question to Matt at Chord, he, as usual, was very prompt with a response and confirmed that dual data rate of 176.4kHz represented the combined data rate. As said, the thing that confused me here was that I had always understood that each channel gave 176.kHz data rate and not 88.2kHz. Well, now I know. Not sure that, in reality, data rate would really make a difference given Rob's previous comments on this subject.


----------



## lovethatsound

bmichels said:


> Since DAVE's upsampling is much more advanced than BLU, is it possible to have *BLU NOT upsampling, that is to say transmiting 16/44 to DAVE*, and then letting DAVE do all upsampling if needed ?


Yes you just leave the switch at top on your blue transport and just use 1 cable instead of 2.


----------



## bmichels

callmecynical said:


> An update on Dave...After switching off the amp for a number of hours - usually I leave the amp permantly on - the unit powered up and I was able to listen to Dave for an extended period. I completely retract my previous statement that Dave is slightly better than the QBD76. This thing is increadable! It really is in a different league to QBD76. I was particularly impressed with the ability if the unit to give a very convey a very convincing bass guitar note. In fact, everything about the music that flows from his unit has to be heard to be fully appreciated. Vocals are projected so convincingly that it feels like the band/musicians are right there in the room. I listened to Van Morrison's Back ON Top CD, which, in my view, is a great example of an excellently recorded album. Dave projected a very convincing 3D sound stage as his vocals just projected out so convincingly, it felt like I could literally reach out and touch him. I was grinning from ear to ear track after track. I was able to follow individual instruments with ease such is the Dave transparency/resolution. The instruments sounded so much more life like and I particularly enjoyed the sax and bass guitar work in the tracks - again conveyed very convincingly. I cannot wait to run through my CD collection - to the extent that I had a somewhat sleepless night trying to prioritse which albums in my collection I would play first - assuming my amp will play ball...
> 
> Hats off to what Mr Watts has achieved here > a significant stepped improvement over QBD76.
> 
> With regard to response Blu transport data rate question to Matt at Chord, he, as usual, was very prompt with a response and confirmed that dual data rate of 176.4kHz represented the combined data rate. As said, the thing that confused me here was that I had always understood that each channel gave 176.kHz data rate and not 88.2kHz. Well, now I know. Not sure that, in reality, data rate would really make a difference given Rob's previous comments on this subject.


 
  
*CallMeCynical* , I am happy that you solved your DAVE issue.
  
 - Did you also tried to listen to DAVE through headphones connected to DAVE internal headphone amp ? 
  
 - Also, will you try to have, as I mentioned above, BLU sending native 16/44 to DAVE and letting DAVE do the upsampling ?


----------



## rkt31

just a query, while rca out of dave is connected to a power amp, can xlr out be fed to rca in of a powered sub ? has anybody checked the audio delay at both pcm+ and dsd+ settings for movies ?


----------



## Mavwong

Good news for me. Just got the Dave. 

My burn in setup. The hd600 is rocking with Dave Lolz.


----------



## tkteo

mython said:


> In light of Rob's earlier discussion, in the Mojo thread, regarding soundstage depth (see quote below), the remarks about soundstage _width_ in this review of a different DAC make for interesting contrast:
> 
> http://inearspace.com/2015/04/17/exogal-comet-dac-shooting-for-the-stars/


 
 The more I think about it, the more I think "soundstage" in terms of width, be it wider or narrow(er), kind of misses the point. I mean if I were to use live performances as the real life example, sound stage literally depends on the dimensions of the room, auditorium, setup of the orchestra or band, etc.
  
 So, whether "soundstage" reproduction in terms of what we hear from our audio decoding and playback devices should ideally be "wider" or "narrower" depends on the music. I should also mentioned that "width" is not the only idea but also "depth" and "height". But again surely this depends on how the music is meant to be performed?
  
 When I listened to Mojo using my favorite vocalist tracks, what I felt Mr Rob Watts has done so impressively is the *presence* of the vocals. If I were listening via floorstanders I would also have thought about "projection" of the vocals.
  
 I don't even use so called audiophile tests tracks such as those I keep being played in stores in Singapore -- like I stated, use your own fave tracks cos it is your enjoyment and your money -- I was listening to some George Michael and James Ingram and I went "wow" cos I never heard George Michael "feel" that way.
  
 my two cents above, given that the more I read posts on head-fi the more I read about this idea of "soundstage".
  
 I don't wanna get started on this other word: "warm", which I understand its usage for *temperature* but not musical reproduction!


----------



## Mython

tkteo said:


> mython said:
> 
> 
> > In light of Rob's earlier discussion, in the Mojo thread, regarding soundstage depth (see quote below), the remarks about soundstage _width_ in this review of a different DAC make for interesting contrast:
> ...


 
  
  
 No one has missed that point. Your point does not contradict the aforementioned -  far from it - it's simply restating what has already been discussed, using different words.
  
 There are depth cues present in recordings, but it is apparent that many DACs do not accurately resolve that information, and thus, _*relatively*-speaking_, this propensity can lead to a *subjective* emphasis on the perceived soundstage  'width' of a recording. Of course, the extent to which this is subjectively perceptible, during playback, is extremely dependent on how many of, and how accurately, the minute audible cues reaching the microphones, in a given recording venue, are actually encoded into digital data. Increasing tap-length is a mathematically-logical way to improve this accuracy (and is why I feel the benefits of Rob's DACs will never be truly experienced until some time in the near future, when studios begin using that very same approach for their ADC). And, as many of us have read, from Rob's detailed posts, he has apparently found that improving SNR in the digital domain has also yielded unanticipated improvements in the subjective perception of accurate proportions of the recording acoustics.
  
 The point is that ALL of this STILL relates _not only_ to the accuracy of digital processing, but also to the auditory information encoded in the digital recording, which, as you have rightly pointed out, very much varies depending on the acoustic of the recording venue.
  
 So, in a situation where a DAC does not resolve the data as mathematically-accurately as Rob's designs, it appears, from Rob's recent findings, that (whilst being very much dependent upon the cues encoded within the recording) the perception of depth is, subjectively, likely to swing towards emphasising depth _*less*_*-*_so _than width. And any such emphasis can justifiably be labeled as 'artificial', even though other aspects of reproduction may be subjectively perceived as sounding quite convincingly realistic.
  
  
  
 It seems all of us have a lot to learn and experience, in the coming years, about how realistic digital music reproduction may possibly be, by comparison with what we are currently accustomed to.
  
 My personal motivation for saving for, and purchasing, one of Rob's DACs will not fully kick into overdrive until some studios have adopted his technology on the _ADC_ side of the equation. _...At which point, _I eagerly look forward to being _*blown away*_ by the fruition of Rob's work.
  





  
  
  
_NB: @ Rob, if I have misconstrued any of your meanings, then please feel free to correct me._


----------



## analogmusic

Quite relieved to see your conclusion on Dave, that it is meeting and exceeding your expectations. Please let us know more.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Quote:


callmecynical said:


> An update on Dave...After switching off the amp for a number of hours - usually I leave the amp permantly on - the unit powered up and I was able to listen to Dave for an extended period. I completely retract my previous statement that Dave is slightly better than the QBD76. This thing is increadable! It really is in a different league to QBD76. I was particularly impressed with the ability if the unit to give a very convey a very convincing bass guitar note. In fact, everything about the music that flows from his unit has to be heard to be fully appreciated. Vocals are projected so convincingly that it feels like the band/musicians are right there in the room. I listened to Van Morrison's Back ON Top CD, which, in my view, is a great example of an excellently recorded album. Dave projected a very convincing 3D sound stage as his vocals just projected out so convincingly, it felt like I could literally reach out and touch him. I was grinning from ear to ear track after track. I was able to follow individual instruments with ease such is the Dave transparency/resolution. The instruments sounded so much more life like and I particularly enjoyed the sax and bass guitar work in the tracks - again conveyed very convincingly. I cannot wait to run through my CD collection - to the extent that I had a somewhat sleepless night trying to prioritse which albums in my collection I would play first - assuming my amp will play ball...
> 
> Hats off to what Mr Watts has achieved here > a significant stepped improvement over QBD76.
> 
> With regard to response Blu transport data rate question to Matt at Chord, he, as usual, was very prompt with a response and confirmed that dual data rate of 176.4kHz represented the combined data rate. As said, the thing that confused me here was that I had always understood that each channel gave 176.kHz data rate and not 88.2kHz. Well, now I know. Not sure that, in reality, data rate would really make a difference given Rob's previous comments on this subject.


----------



## paul79

*CallMeCynical,*
  
*What transport are you using to the DAVE?*


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Call Me Cynical
Wait until you hear what it 'really' sounds like. 

I have never had a piece of HIfi that took so long to burn in or change so much as the Dave. I guess it's because no other product I have owned produced so much detail and dynamics. Key times on my unit were 170 hrs and 240 hrs.

Have written a review but holding back and tweaking due to sound and dynamic changes. Three words are uppermost in my mind: Purity, Dynamics and Emotion.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I guess what has surprised me the most is the 'absolute purity' of the reproduction of instrument sounds. I expected detail and I expected dynamics but not this level of purity.

It makes me wonder what a recording with Chord ADC's would sound like through Dave.


----------



## bmichels

daveredref-iii said:


> I guess what has surprised my the most is the absolute purity of the reproduction of instrument sounds. I expected detail and I expected dynamics but not this level of purity.
> 
> It makes me wonder what a recording with Chord ADC's would sound like through Dave.


 
  
 This is very encouraging, but... this also make me wonder if the *Chord BLU, which is 10 years old,* is at the level to feed DAVE with the perfect signal for DAVE to shine ?


----------



## rkt31

yes if even the minutest burn in improvement are audiible due to extra details of dave, it means the quality of transport will also matter. so what can be the best transport for Dave specially for high resolution files ? how about a universal/ blu Ray player ? or daps like fiio or ak ?


----------



## smial1966

Surely a dedicated music server (e.g. a CAD CAT or Aurender model) would provide the best solution for playback of high resolution files? 
  
 Quote:


rkt31 said:


> yes if even the minutest burn in improvement are audiible due to extra details of dave, it means the quality of transport will also matter. so what can be the best transport for Dave specially for high resolution files ? how about a universal/ blu Ray player ? or daps like fiio or ak ?


----------



## PhilW

Nom, Nom


----------



## smial1966

OH MY GOODNESS! You utter tease Phil. How is all that Chord goodness sounding?!? 
  
 Quote:


philw said:


> Nom, Nom


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

philw said:


> Nom, Nom


 

 Putting a great high end CD Transporter such as the Blu on top of a pre-amp / amp is not good news.   It should at least be sitting on a nice flat solid table or better in one of Chords Choral Racks mounted on a very solid (due to weight) flat table.


----------



## Mavwong

Sorry can't help but to post my feeling now.
  
 I have not heard anything like this before. I only using HD600 (deform), stock power cord, stock USB cable, stock HD600 cable, and feeding from a freaking Ipod! and it sound absolutely amazing..... And it's one box solution.
  
 24hrs burn in and counting.
  
 I second every description dave3 posted. my english not that good so I will just skip the review part.
  
 Of course for DSD files you need a good CAT. I will post my impression much later once I complete burn in and setup Dave with my main speaker system.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

bonesy jonesy said:


> Putting a great high end CD Transporter such as the Blu on top of a pre-amp / amp is not good news.   It should at least be sitting on a nice flat solid table or better in one of Chords Choral Racks mounted on a very solid (due to weight) flat table.


 
  
 DAVE on top of another piece direct on top of another piece of audio equipment ??? without any isolation and space for heat release is also not good !


----------



## PhilW

bonesy jonesy said:


> Putting a great high end CD Transporter such as the Blu on top of a pre-amp / amp is not good news.   It should at least be sitting on a nice flat solid table or better in one of Chords Choral Racks mounted on a very solid (due to weight) flat table.


 
  
 We would have done had we been using it 
  
 It was time for the DSX1000 to have a play 
  
 Regards
  
 Phil


----------



## Mython

philw said:


> Nom, Nom


 
  
  
  
  
 Phil, it's such a shame that you don't understand what it takes to be a high-end dealer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





:


----------



## CallMeCynical

I'm impressed eith the number of listening hours notched up, DaveRedRef! And it's very encouraging to know that Dave will get progressively better with burn in smile:

With reference to Bmichels comments regarding use of different data rates, I will try different confugurations for sure and let you know if there's a difference. If you beleive in need for cable burn in, then I have double whammy here as I'll need burn both cables and DAC unit. I had previously streamed data out of Blu via XLR as this connection method seemed to give a slightly better sound than BNC to my ears.

On well recorded cds, Dave really shines. I've been taken aback at just how good the unit is at conveying. Completely agree with DaveRedRef comments that it makes the music sound very believable. It simply enables you to sit back and enjoy your own private performance - right there in comfort if your own chair.


----------



## Mavwong

Love this song, just bought from itune lolz.
  
 Anymore to recommend similar to True Love ways? My father used to own quite a few vinyl but now all gone. When he come to visit me in Singapore I love to play for him.
  
 Sorry for the off topic and appreciate any recommendation.
  
  
 Quote:


mython said:


> If you have it, try Buddy Holly's _'True Love Ways'_...


----------



## Mython

mavwong said:


> Love this song, just bought from itune lolz.
> 
> Anymore to recommend similar to True Love ways? My father used to own quite a few vinyl but now all gone. When he come to visit me in Singapore I love to play for him.
> 
> ...


 
  


Spoiler: Warning: Off-Topic



From the tracks I've encountered, *True Love Ways* appears to be the best-recorded Buddy Holly track available - sadly, the majority of his back catalogue seems to be appallingly recorded, by comparison. Such a great shame for such a great artist.
  
 There are, however, a couple of other tracks that get close to _True Love Ways:_
  
_*Raining in my Heart* _and_ *I Guess it Doesn't Matter Anymore*_
  
  
 If anyone knows of any other well-recorded BH tracks, I'd be very happy to know abut them.


----------



## Mavwong

Yes, some other tracks are mono infact.
  
 The other tracks I like is everyday.
  
 may be some other artist?
  
  
  
 Quote:


mython said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Off-Topic
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Mython

mavwong said:


> may be some other artist?


 


Spoiler: Warning: Off-Topic



 
 Yes, definitely consider the Analogue Productions remasters of the wonderful Nat King Cole...
  
  
 http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/93839/Nat_King_Cole-Love_Is_The_Thing-FLAC_176kHz24bit_Download
 http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/93705/Nat_King_Cole-The_Very_Thought_of_You-DSD_Single_Rate_28MHz64fs_Download
  
  
_(Note: choose your preferred file format carefully, on that website)_


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

My first truly audiophile experience was 'True Love Ways'.
  
 Guy had ripped a CD copy direct from the master tape. It showed me just how much crap goes on from master tape to production CD releases because Buddy Holly was singing 'forward' of the speakers in mid air about two feet in front of my face. It was a very special moment in my audio listening. Very spooky too! The system was Musical Fidelity (valves) mega system 1000 watt thing but simple Spendor speakers in a fairly small room. I will never forget it as it renewed my faith in hi-end audio systems.


----------



## izzard1982

One question about AES input, in the manual, it says AES only supports up to 96khz sample rate, but it's 192khz on Chord's website, which one is correct?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Sorry for off-topic but if you guys like old tube 50's-60's recordings of great songs, I just love this Dean Martin compilation. Its guaranteed to put me in a good mood.
  
 Martin chose to record some great songs and fortunately his recordings were much better than Sinatra. This 'Capital' 2CD remastering is not cheap (maybe cheaper elsewhere?) but it has a very analogue sound to it imo.
  
 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dino-Essential-Dean-Martin/dp/B004XIDV0G/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1450716667&sr=1-2&keywords=dino%3A+the+essential+dean+martin


----------



## wdh777

Does the Dave work with camera connection kit directly into a iPhone or iPad? There was a rumor today that apple was coming out with a high res music format. I know this rumor has been going on for a long time. Full disclosure I am an apple fan but to the extent that they could create a new standard in streaming that would be approved by the audiophile community would be amazing. The only issue is when will the high end dacs/amps embrace Apple? Some now can be used with a camera adapter cable which is not ideal. Is it an issue with not wanting to pay Apple for the ability to directly do it or is it a musicality issue? I'm tempted with the Dave but at the same time don't want to spend that kind of money if everyting is going to change in a few months. Any thoughts?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Lets hope it is MQA that would make it a done deal and major remastering take-up of key back catalogues. Beatles, Dylan, Stones etc


----------



## Mython

wdh777 said:


> Is it an issue with not wanting to pay Apple for the ability to directly do it or is it a musicality issue? I'm tempted with the Dave but at the same time don't want to spend that kind of money if everyting is going to change in a few months. Any thoughts?


 
  
 This issue was discussed in the Mojo thread, recently:
  
  
www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-read-the-third-post-for-updated-info/1710#post_12016629
  
  
 AFAIAA, Apple have zero significant track record in advancing the state of digital audio formats. AFAIAA, they also have zero significant track record in putting sound quality first&foremost in the design of ANY of their recent hardware products. And, since Jobs' passing, I haven't witnessed any substantial industry-leading innovation in _any_ of their products (gimmicky wrist watches don't count).
  
 They are all about grabbing as much market share as possible, mostly using a _"look at the shiney-shiney!"_ approach, coupled with a closed ecosystem, and _keeping_ customers locked into product co-dependency, draconian control, and forced obsolescence.
  
 I do believe Apple have the _potential_ to produce a very decent DAP (and, _conceivably_, even venturing into a desktop headphone DAC-Amp &/or a hi-fi seperates streamer device), but I don't believe the bean-counters on the board of directors will be _motivated _to best serve the needs of audiophiles, overall, judging by their self-serving track record, over the past couple of decades. _It is worth pondering *why*_ Apple would be motivated to create a higher-res codec than the already-unnecessary and redundant ALAC, at all. One may be reasonably certain that whatever new codec they might bring to market will probably be tightly-integrated with iTunes, as part of a reluctant, and sorely-overdue push to bring iTunes up to date with the rest of the music industry, and thus likely DRM'd, so as to serve Apple's own interests.
  
  
 I am curious why would you choose products based on wishing to be compatible with Apple's selfish shenanigans?
  
 Far better to free yourself from that dog-&-pony nonsense, and instead buy open-standard products from companies that don't selfishly try to hamstring you at every opportunity (incompatibility, forced-obsolescence, etc.)
  
 And I say all this as someone who has owned (still owns) an obsolete Powerbook, and a broken iPod Classic (gave my other one away to someone, for spares), so I have been an Apple customer, myself.
  
 If I had the spare cash, I'd buy a DAVE DAC in a heartbeat, knowing there are hundreds of different products, from many wonderful designers, engineers, and companies, I could successfully feed it a digital signal with.
  
 .


----------



## lovethatsound

izzard1982 said:


> One question about AES input, in the manual, it says AES only supports up to 96khz sample rate, but it's 192khz on Chord's website, which one is correct?


192khz is correct.


----------



## Mavwong

Dave is confirm working with Ipod, ipad, iphone with camera connection kit. See my way back impression, even with this setup, it sound much better than with Hugo.
  
 Currently I am burning in the Dave with ipad and ipod.
  
  
  
 Quote:


wdh777 said:


> Does the Dave work with camera connection kit directly into a iPhone or iPad? There was a rumor today that apple was coming out with a high res music format. I know this rumor has been going on for a long time. Full disclosure I am an apple fan but to the extent that they could create a new standard in streaming that would be approved by the audiophile community would be amazing. The only issue is when will the high end dacs/amps embrace Apple? Some now can be used with a camera adapter cable which is not ideal. Is it an issue with not wanting to pay Apple for the ability to directly do it or is it a musicality issue? I'm tempted with the Dave but at the same time don't want to spend that kind of money if everyting is going to change in a few months. Any thoughts?


----------



## Beolab

My best tip if someone searching for a extra good source but on a tighter $10k budget excl. DAC, then i can highly recomend the 
( NAD ) BlueSound Node II with a W4s Remedy femto Re-Clocker , this in combination with my Hugo its a match made in heaven! 

Without the W4a Remedy, the sound are good, but the Hugo sound a little harsh and all music even if its high def with great dynamic range, the combination are not the best, but with the Remedy something magical happens! 

The sound are much smother have a better soundstage, greater dept and sounding much blacker than the stock config Blue + Hugo does, even with a Regen connected, it does not come near the W4s sound. It gets more fluid with a glowing sound like on a neon light sign in the night!  



DAR is as overwelmed as me over this small fantastic pruduct.! I can say that this combination battery powered w4s + Hugo is as close to my MSB Analog SQ wise, and are even better in some cases. The MSB does not have the exact same dept as the HUGO, but the MSB are much faster and got bigger and better soundstage. 

So it should be very intresting to connect the W4s to my Chord DAVE and see if it can do an even bigger step forward when it arrives. 





https://wyred4sound.com/products/digital-converters/remedy-reclocker


----------



## Hiyono

Can I ask someone with the Dave to measure its size and estimate the weight. I'm having a friend bring it to Asia for me since of the delays. Was thinking of getting a pelican case for it.


----------



## smial1966

Info below from the Chord manual p13.    Corroborative link to manual - http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/files/Dave%20Manual.pdf
  
*DIMENSIONS IN MM: 338 x 60 x 145mm (Width x Height x Depth) *
  
*WEIGHT: 7Kg*
  
 Quote:


hiyono said:


> Can I ask someone with the Dave to measure its size and estimate the weight. I'm having a friend bring it to Asia for me since of the delays. Was thinking of getting a pelican case for it.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I like to test my system changes by digging out one or two CD's I haven't listened to for the best part of a decade. Today I tried Divine Madness (Virgin 1992). What a pleasant surprise. I never realised how well they recorded their bass guitar and also how well they preserved bass dynamics. There is hardly any compression on things like Baggy Trousers and Embarrassment for this pressing. Talk about impact. Dave belts it out. What a great way to start the day. Especially a Grey Day! haha


----------



## rkt31

7 kg is heavy for the size. is it due to solid aluminum casing ? except build what are other advantages of this heavy aluminum ?


----------



## Mavwong

Yes, is heavy and I almost drop it when I first hold it for photo taking (adv for distributor )
  
 As mention by Rob the whole casing is heatsink for the FPGA. And it's good thing for vibration damper point of view.


----------



## Mython

mavwong said:


> Yes, is heavy and I almost drop it when I first hold it for photo taking (adv for distributor )
> 
> As mention by Rob the whole casing is heatsink for the FPGA. And it's good thing for vibration damper point of view.


 
  
  
 You could make it even heavier, if you like! LOL
  
 www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/new-methods-for-quantifying-sonic-performance-part-two/


----------



## Mavwong

I wont, Dave is heavy enough. But for HP listening, vibration won't be huge issue unless you live in constant earth quake zone or on high floor apartment.
  
 What I will do is putting Ansuz footer under Dave 
  
  
  
  
 Quote:


mython said:


> You could make it even heavier, if you like! LOL
> 
> www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/new-methods-for-quantifying-sonic-performance-part-two/


 
 ​


----------



## Whazzzup

I have no problem with apple, just sayin. I find the 320 lossless just fine. CCK is a hassel for portability. I cant  go back to the dog and pony show of open systems. But thats just me. So if apple comes out with a higher quality format my only issue is it would be great to have all previous content up converted.


----------



## Mython

whazzzup said:


> it would be great to have all previous content up converted.


 
  
  
 I can understand many people (including me, to a certain extent) appreciating new performances being _recorded_ in higher resolution, but why would you want existing content to be up-converted to a higher sample-rate file?
  
 There's already far too much of this skullduggery being perpetrated by certain unscrupulous individuals in the so-called Hi-Res music industry.  Redbook upconverted to a higher sample rate does not magically improve the quality of the original recording.


----------



## Whazzzup

mython said:


> whazzzup said:
> 
> 
> > it would be great to have all previous content up converted.
> ...


 
 well then, thanks, im good to go then


----------



## Mython

Changing the topic, here's someone else's perspective on a topic many of us have grown familiar with, in various DAC threads, including those relating to Hugo and DAVE - namely, *DSD*, as a format (seems at least partially congruent with Rob's standpoint):
  
www.head-fi.org/t/647942/dsd-to-support-or-not


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Would be nice to see Chord release a new Blu Reference Transport with all necessary digital connections to 176.4 kHz


----------



## Deftone

mavwong said:


> Good news for me. Just got the Dave.
> 
> My burn in setup. The hd600 is rocking with Dave Lolz.


 
 8k dac with a £250 headphone lol
 i love the madness, bet it sounds excellent.


----------



## Beolab

Very nice setup Mavwong with the cabeling and all  

What headphones are you aiming at as the next step?


----------



## bmichels

daveredref-iii said:


> Would be nice to see Chord release a new Blu Reference Transport with all necessary digital connections to 176.4 kHz


 
  
 +1000000


----------



## bmichels

deftone said:


> 8k dac with a £250 headphone lol
> i love the madness, bet it sounds excellent.


 
  
 It is his "burn in setup", not his listening set-up


----------



## Mavwong

My HEK no stock, bought together with the Dave.

Yes it's madness. Frankly speaking many overlook hd600 and I only referring to hd600 with front and back foam taken away. This is the most value for money dynamic hp after I audit and own many high low end hp. I SOLD All of them and only keep hd600. I only return to high end hp after I audit the HEK together with DAVE.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Maybe my ears are playing tricks on me but I would swear this Dave unit is continuing to improve on separation and bass control. 300 hour burn-in seems crazy but that's what it sounds like to me.


----------



## V1pers

<a href="http://s474.photobucket.com/user/Mikawen/media/Christmas/IMG_3174_zps6qu8f1wc.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr109/Mikawen/Christmas/th_IMG_3174_zps6qu8f1wc.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_3174_zps6qu8f1wc.jpg" style=""></a>


----------



## Sonic77

v1pers said:


> <a href="http://s474.photobucket.com/user/Mikawen/media/Christmas/IMG_3174_zps6qu8f1wc.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr109/Mikawen/Christmas/th_IMG_3174_zps6qu8f1wc.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_3174_zps6qu8f1wc.jpg" style=""></a>


 

 Beautiful!


----------



## bmichels

Can you tell us how DAVE works with STAX amp/headphone ? good synergie ?


----------



## seeteeyou

Since you just joined yesterday and still not allowed to post pictures yet, I hope that you don't mind your awesome pictures to be shown below:
  









  
 BTW, Santa with Abyss on his head looked so fantabulous.


----------



## V1pers

Thanks for posting my pics 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Needless to say it has been a good Christmas, there really is a brilliant Synergy here between DAVE and the SR-009's, I actually turned it all off on Christmas Eve after a 5 hour session but couldn't go to sleep so I started it all up again for another 2 hours till 3am  I certainly paid for it yesterday though.
  
 I used to run a TT with this rig and with DAVE in the rig it really has jumped another level, I still think the TT is the sweet spot in the Chord range but the refinement and musicality that DAVE brings really is a large step up, it is just so effortless, as I found out you really can listen for hours and hours without any fatigue, you just want to listen more 
  
 I've been working through my all time favourite albums since getting DAVE, last night I listened to David Bowies 'Scary Monster's' an album I know really well but to use the old cliche I really did hear a lot of new information buried deep in the mix, but for me what DAVE brings is not all about extra detail but in the analogue way it presents the music, it just sounds so natural.
  
 I run the LCD-3's as well to try the headphone section in DAVE, needless to say it was excellent, more weight and organic presentation thanks to the 3's, but I just missed the openess of the 009's so went back to them pretty quickly 
  
 Out seeing family today when in reality I just want to get home for another session as listening to my favourite albums really is like hearing them for the first time as in a lot of instances they sound like new recordings, this really is quite addictive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'll leave DAVE running all day though as although it has had around 150 hours on it I still think it will benefit from more.


----------



## musicday

Anyone tried Dave with LCD4?


----------



## Whazzzup

Good to know that the sweet spot for chord may be the tt. (Previous post) Just order it on Boxing Day sale. I would love to hear Dave but alas and not exclusively due to the low can dollar, I must bow out of the Dave thread. Sometimes you just got to be honest with oneself and say, just can't go there. Happy listening tho and seasons.


----------



## Kakki

I was thinking about the mechanism / construction of the digital power amplifier that will be paired with Dave which Rob mentioned to be released in 2016.
  
 My guess is that it has Pulse Array Modulator, Pulse Array DACs, OP I/V Converters and Analogue Filters, and accepts already noise-shaped digital signals from Dave. (So this is a juiced-up version of the latter half of Dave / Hugo / Mojo and has only small-sized FPGA for Pulse Array Modulation.)
  
 But if my guess is correct, right now, Dave is the only product in the world that can work together with this digital power amplifier. The market size would be too small for Chord to make such a product, in my opinion...
  
 So my further guess is that Chord will soon release Hugo2 that also has a digital output that can work together with the digital power amplifier.
  
 Any thoughts on this??


----------



## Beolab

kakki said:


> I was thinking about the mechanism / construction of the digital power amplifier that will be paired with Dave which Rob mentioned to be released in 2016.
> 
> My guess is that it has Pulse Array Modulator, Pulse Array DACs, OP I/V Converters and Analogue Filters, and accepts already noise-shaped digital signals from Dave. (So this is a juiced-up version of the latter half of Dave / Hugo / Mojo and has only small-sized FPGA for Pulse Array Modulation.)
> 
> ...




To my estimation and understanding that Hugo II are going to feature this smaller than the moon are about to collide with earth next year, its only for the Coral and Reference series. 

You are not going to buy to Reference power amps combined with one Hugo II unfortenatly.


----------



## Beolab

@Rob Watts

How many DAVEś are out in the field for testing / reviewing, and when do we see the first one ?


----------



## Rob Watts

I don't know - I am seeing the guys at CES next week, so will find out then.
  
 My worry is getting the measurements right - unless you have a APX555, you will be measuring the test equipment. Even with the APX555 it's tough, and needs to be done with extreme care.
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

Thx Rob ! 

Mybe Matthew at @Chord Electronocs can answer instead on how many DAVEś are out in the field for reviewing at the moment, and when we are about to read the first one?


----------



## Hiyono

Can I ask someone with a dave to take a picture and measure the original box it comes in?  Mine should be arriving next week at a friend's place and he is bringing it to Asia for me.  Was wondering it the box is small enough to carry on or I should buy a pelican case for it.


----------



## Mavwong

Size of the box is 44cm X 30cm x 20cm. It's double box packing.


----------



## lovethatsound

rob watts said:


> I don't know - I am seeing the guys at CES next week, so will find out then.
> 
> My worry is getting the measurements right - unless you have a APX555, you will be measuring the test equipment. Even with the APX555 it's tough, and needs to be done with extreme care.
> 
> Rob


I wouldn't worry about it Rob,ive just been listening to blu transport and a Dave with some hd800 in ,absolutely stunning,you've got nothing to worry about at all.


----------



## JaZZ

A new black DAVE has found a new home:
  

  
 The difference to Hugo is larger than I thought. Just two words so far: purity and space.
  
 In case you wonder: Yes, the FiiO X5 II (2x 128 GB) acts as digital drive in this system.


----------



## bmichels

jazz said:


> A new black DAVE has found a new home:
> 
> 
> 
> The difference to Hugo is larger than I thought. Just two words so far: purity and space.


 
  
 I am very happy for you. 
  
 Is DAVE powerful enough to drive HE1000 with plenty authority ?


----------



## JaZZ

bmichels said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, by all means! A classical concert sounds as if you were there. So much air and weight at the same time.
  
 It's a pity you don't have your HE1000 anymore. To my ears they make an excellent pairing (with a Silver Dragon cable and equalization).


----------



## Rob Watts

lovethatsound said:


> I wouldn't worry about it Rob,ive just been listening to blu transport and a Dave with some hd800 in ,absolutely stunning,you've got nothing to worry about at all.


 
 No I am not worried about the SQ at all. The great thing about Dave is that it resets your expectations about reproduced sound and Dave does things - particularly in terms of sound stage space - that I have never heard before from audio. In my view it very easily establishes a new benchmark for sound quality.
  
 But measurements are supposed to be objective, and any subjective listening test is simply one persons judgement. But in reality, measurements depend upon the quality of the test equipment, and the judgement of the reviewer as to whether a particular measurement has any validity or not. Dave very easily establishes a new benchmark for measurements too; it would be good to see that confirmed, rather than the usual problem of poor test equipment and or low expectations of what constitutes good performance. I get fed up with gross distortions being shown, and then a silly caveat of that gross distortion probably won't upset the sound quality. In my experience, if a distortion is measurable, removing that distortion (with everything else unchanged) will give sound quality benefits.     
  
 But from the listeners perspective, measurements does not really matter I guess - its whether the music is more enjoyable or not that really counts.
  
 Rob


----------



## Mython

I'd be most interested to hear DAVE within the context of a dipole loudspeaker setup. That could prove very interesting, in terms of spatial perception.


----------



## bmichels

jazz said:


> It's a pity you don't have your HE1000 anymore. To my ears they make an excellent pairing (with a Silver Dragon cable and equalization).




How do you connect the Fiio to DAVE ? Coax ? USB ?

RE the He1000 i was not THAT impressed with my EC445. May be it offers better synergy with DAVE ? 

Anyway I just received today a Dharma and a HD800s to Test for 1 week.


----------



## STR-1

rob watts said:


> No I am not worried about the SQ at all. The great thing about Dave is that it resets your expectations about reproduced sound and Dave does things - particularly in terms of sound stage space - that I have never heard before from audio. In my view it very easily establishes a new benchmark for sound quality.
> 
> But measurements are supposed to be objective, and any subjective listening test is simply one persons judgement. But in reality, measurements depend upon the quality of the test equipment, and the judgement of the reviewer as to whether a particular measurement has any validity or not. Dave very easily establishes a new benchmark for measurements too; it would be good to see that confirmed, rather than the usual problem of poor test equipment and or low expectations of what constitutes good performance. I get fed up with gross distortions being shown, and then a silly caveat of that gross distortion probably won't upset the sound quality. In my experience, if a distortion is measurable, removing that distortion (with everything else unchanged) will give sound quality benefits.
> 
> ...



Rob, while any general advance in sound quality with the Dave (which I have not yet heard) over the TT (which I have heard) will no doubt be apparent through headphones (mine are HIFIMAN HE1000 and Sennheiser HD800) has any effort gone into making Dave's headphone driving abilities better than that of the TT?


----------



## JaZZ

bmichels said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > It's a pity you don't have your HE1000 anymore. To my ears they make an excellent pairing (with a Silver Dragon cable and equalization).
> ...


 
  
 Coax is the only connection the X5 II offers.
  
 Don't worry, the HD 800 (S) sounds equally phenomenal with DAVE. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 After noticing the high distortion level I had no interest in the Dharma anymore (which was purely platonic anyway, since I'm served in terms of headphones).


----------



## Mavwong

Congratz, that black beauty looks sexier than mine 
  
 Quote:


jazz said:


> A new black DAVE has found a new home:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Mython

mavwong said:


> Congratz, that black beauty looks sexier than mine


 
  
  
 Quick tip: don't let the wife see/hear you talking about her like that!


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes the output is more advanced, its a 2 nd order analogue noise shaper. This means when the current increases, there is no change in OP distortion - apart from a minor increase in 2nd harmonic - this has the benefit in a smoother sound quality. Also, I got a big improvement in HF linearity too, and I suspect this 2nd order system helped that too.
  
 The voltage OP is larger too, some 6.8v, and its same at 33 ohms and 300 ohms.
  
 I will try to publish the numbers showing this.
  
 Rob


----------



## Mavwong

@rob
  
 Between the PCM+ and DSD+ filter, what are the differences?
  
 When I play PCM 44khz files, switch between them I did hear differences. Can't really describe them in works for now. Seems that using DSD+ filter with PCM files sounded like I sat few more rows behind from music. Not veil I am saying, just bit more distance away. Anyone notice that?
  
 Mav


----------



## Mavwong

Haha, if she enjoy music like I do that won't be a problem anymore 
  
 Gosshh... even Eternal Flame sound so good....
  
 And this is through an un optimize PC, just running jplay on top of jriver, still a hd600 headphone.
  
  
 Quote:


mython said:


> Quick tip: don't let the wife see/hear you talking about her like that!


----------



## JaZZ

mavwong said:


> Congratz, that black beauty looks sexier than mine
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you. Yes, now – eye to eye – I'm happy with the color choice. Also, in my experience black devices always _sound_ a little better than their silver counterparts.


----------



## chordguy

Got my chance today to hear Dave for the first time today, with Chord Electronics amplification, small floorstanding Proac speakers and a laptop running JRiver. Only listened to one song, Peter Gabriel, So album, song Mercy Street.
 First thing I noticed was the noise floor, or lack of it, I just heard music, very very clean.
 The little triangle rhythm that runs through the song was very clear, heard the notes starting and stopping each time.
 Bass had a solidity to it that made it sound very real.
 But the biggest impact on me was the vocals, the multi tracking came through really clearly and I could actually visualise Peter Gabriel shaping his mouth to get the sound of the words the way he wanted them to sound.
 Very impressed, Chord has a winner on their hands.
 Rob, great job, I'm sure you're very proud of Dave, I know I would be if I had created something so wonderful.


----------



## Sonic77

chordguy said:


> Got my chance today to hear Dave for the first time today, with Chord Electronics amplification, small floorstanding Proac speakers and a laptop running JRiver. Only listened to one song, Peter Gabriel, So album, song Mercy Street.
> First thing I noticed was the noise floor, or lack of it, I just heard music, very very clean.
> The little triangle rhythm that runs through the song was very clear, heard the notes starting and stopping each time.
> Bass had a solidity to it that made it sound very real.
> ...


Thanks for your impressions, I won't be getting my Dave till next month. I transferred all my iTunes files to my server hard drive in preparation for Dave. My flac and DSD files are on my network hard drive.


----------



## STR-1

rob watts said:


> Yes the output is more advanced, its a 2 nd order analogue noise shaper. This means when the current increases, there is no change in OP distortion - apart from a minor increase in 2nd harmonic - this has the benefit in a smoother sound quality. Also, I got a big improvement in HF linearity too, and I suspect this 2nd order system helped that too.
> 
> The voltage OP is larger too, some 6.8v, and its same at 33 ohms and 300 ohms.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply, Rob. I look forward to an opportunity to listen to the Dave.


----------



## AndrewH13

Just wondering how long before Dave tech filters down to a level for those that can't contemplate buying. I don't regret at all buying Hugo a year ago and am pleased that its sibling had now reached a price for the masses. But I'm getting on now, maybe two or three years? .....


----------



## JaZZ

mython said:


> I'd be most interested to hear DAVE within the context of a dipole loudspeaker setup. That could prove very interesting, in terms of spatial perception.


 
  
 Yes, I agree!


----------



## analogmusic

rob watts said:


> But from the listeners perspective, measurements does not really matter I guess - its whether the music is more enjoyable or not that really counts.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 That is the crux of the issue in hi-fi for me. Unless I play music on the Hugo in my car (through AUX in), I find myself not listening to music on the standard car CD player. My long commute to work seems endless.
  
 But when the Hugo is plugged in, I am enjoying each and every song, and the commute is something to look forward to, strange as it seems (well my wife and daughter aren't around to tell me the lower the volume or switch it off !)
  
 It is the very best hi-fi purchase I ever made.
  
 I wonder if Chord will ever make a portable DAVE... I suppose those with the money can always use an inverter in the car through the DC socket to power up DAVE?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Jazz
 Congratulations on your new Dave!
  
 'Purity' is indeed a standout attribute of the Dave Dac I agree. To my mind this is a sure sign the mathematics are good. I have been doing a little testing on mains conditioners also and Dave lays bare the impurities of mains filters used by some companies.
  
 Happy New Year to all!


----------



## Jawed

You seem to be implying that DAVE is sensitive to the quality of mains it's fed. This appears to be inferior to Hugo TT, for example, which is reputed to sound unchanged whether on battery or mains power.


----------



## mf22433

Hi,
  
 I read this whole thread and found it very instructive. In the past (more than 10 years ago) I owned a DAC64, it had a switch to select a buffer size, the longer the buffer, the better the sound (at least to my hears). It appears that the Dave does not have this selectable buffer size anymore. But how much delay (input-output latency) is it introducing ?
  
 Today, my setup is actually a 2.2 system (2 mains and 2 subs with a digital processor in between), I could consider adding a high end DAC like the Dave on the main signal but it does not make sense on the subs. If I insert a Dave on the mains how much delay will it introduce as compared to the subs ? One way or another I would have to compensate for that delay to re-align the subs with the mains.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Jawed
 It was not my intention to imply that.
  
 I was commenting on purity of sound and I have found that some mains filters are not as pure as others. Dave makes it easier to sort the good from the less good when you compare. I won't highlight the weaker brands but I will say that my recent experience with the Isotek Sigmas and Dave has been very rewarding. Very clean indeed.


----------



## smial1966

Just received my DAVE in silver (though the black looks exquisite too) and wondered whether you're using any isolation device/platform underneath it? I ask as you've undoubtedly covered every other aspect, e.g. mains cables and filters, to ensure that DAVE performs optimally. Thanks for your input.   
  
 Quote:


daveredref-iii said:


> Jawed
> It was not my intention to imply that.
> 
> I was commenting on purity of sound and I have found that some mains filters are not as pure as others. Dave makes it easier to sort the good from the less good when you compare. I won't highlight the weaker brands but I will say that my recent experience with the Isotek Sigmas and Dave has been very rewarding. Very clean indeed.


----------



## bmichels

> Originally Posted by *analogmusic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> I wonder if Chord will ever make a portable DAVE...


 
  
 +100000000


----------



## Mavwong

Everything that uses AC will be affected by the quality of mains, I learned that from my "Master of power" who experiment and tried many main filter etc that the improvement is almost never ends.
  
 TT could afford to use battery but Dave can't, the FPGA in Dave draw high current as it needs the amount of processing power that far exceed what the hugo FPGA.
  
 and with Dave ultra transparency, slight change made to the setup could be heard, even with my stock cable HD600. eg. JRiver as player using KS driver still different than using Jplay ASIO and select KS in Jplay setting menu. With Jplay is much better even with old recording song like "Eternal Flames".
  
 But I do admit Rob did a good job with Dave internal ps. Even I am not using my Ansuz diamond PC and filter with my burn in setup, it sound far better than any exotic setup I have heard.
  
 Mav
  
  
 Quote:


jawed said:


> You seem to be implying that DAVE is sensitive to the quality of mains it's fed. This appears to be inferior to Hugo TT, for example, which is reputed to sound unchanged whether on battery or mains power.


----------



## lovethatsound

Hi smial1966,congratulations on getting your DAVE,hope you've got plenty of free time,because once you start listening to it you won't want to stop


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

smial1966
 I am sure you know this audiophile obsession we have never stops in its quest for perfection. 
  
 My No1 priority is musicality so nothing gets considered if musicality is lost or depleted. So far Isotek Sigmas, Syncro and Audience cabling are good for dynamics, purity and musicality. They seem a good fit in my system. Am trying out some digital chords also but it would be premature to comment at this stage.
  
 One new observation on Dave is that I am more aware when a vocalist misses perfect pitch. I don't know if inferior/older technology dacs 'aggregate' pitch in some way due to lower resolution or perhaps I was just less aware of it before. Dave is very real and present so maybe it was always there before but less clear.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

smial1966
 Forgot to say I have all hifi units on Vertex AQ granite platforms (including Dave). I also have the Dave cradle and to go that little bit extra I am using two Ultra SS stillpoints to further steady the front of the DAC.


----------



## Mavwong

Just end my listening session with "summer of 69", not he original version, but the one from the The very best of MTV unplug.
  
 That said, here comes the end of 2015 for those ard Asia. Wish everyone happy new year and better 2016 ahead.
  
 Mav


----------



## Mython

mavwong said:


> Just end my listening session with "summer of 69", not he original version, but the one from the The very best of MTV unplug.
> 
> That said, here comes the end of 2015 for those ard Asia. Wish everyone happy new year and better 2016 ahead.
> 
> Mav


 
  
  
 I wouldn't call myself a _'fan'_, per se, of Bryan Adams _or_ Maroon 5, but, since you mention unplugged.... aside from the ubiquitous Clapton effort, I can recommend, _*from a recording SQ POV*_, Maroon 5's _*'1.22.03.Acoustic'*_ album. Not a purist audiophile recording, but very pleasing, in places.


----------



## rkt31

I recently happened to listen to Fiona joy dsd128 signature solo songs on Hugo. pure joy ! wonder how will it sound with Dave ?


----------



## rkt31

many a times so called Audiophile albums can be more of experiment. some of my definite musical Audiophile albums are paquito d rivera portrait of Cuba, masterpiece guitar- Steve howe and Martin Taylor, drive - bela fleck, spirit and blues Eric bibb and best of eva cassidy which though not recorded live but purely for the voice of eva !


----------



## smial1966

Thank you again for your invaluable insight. 

I have only a few hours with DAVE, but the sheer visceral power of this devices ability to convey the raw emotive nuances of the human voice utterly astounds me. Ordinarily I am not so easily pleased as my personal Head-Fi inventory includes the Goldmund Telos (HPA) and Wells Audio Headtrip - with commensurate quality DACs. So this far in my journey I'm mightily impressed and just want to luxuriate in the sonic nirvana of DAVE.




daveredref-iii said:


> smial1966
> Forgot to say I have all hifi units on Vertex AQ granite platforms (including Dave). I also have the Dave cradle and to go that little bit extra I am using two Ultra SS stillpoints to further steady the front of the DAC.


----------



## Mavwong

Hate to say this, almost everything sound great on Dave 
  
 Quote:


rkt31 said:


> I recently happened to listen to Fiona joy dsd128 signature solo songs on Hugo. pure joy ! wonder how will it sound with Dave ?


----------



## rkt31

great, that's the quality of a highly transparent,musical and neutral gear !


----------



## bmichels

smial1966 said:


> Thank you again for your invaluable insight.
> 
> I have only a few hours with DAVE, but the sheer visceral power of this devices ability to convey the raw emotive nuances of the human voice utterly astounds me. Ordinarily I am not so easily pleased as my personal Head-Fi inventory includes the Goldmund Telos (HPA) and Wells Audio Headtrip - with commensurate quality DACs. So this far in my journey I'm mightily impressed and just want to luxuriate in the sonic nirvana of DAVE.




I am happy for you that you reacted your Sonic nirvâna. Are you using DAVE internal headphone amp or do you connect DAVE to your Wells Audio Headtrip ? What headphone are you using ?


----------



## smial1966

bmichels thank you for your kind words and Happy New Year.
  
 I've briefly used the Headtrip with DAVE and it does impart a touch more muscularity to the sound-scape, so bass sounds meatier and the mid-range a smidgen more dynamic, but it's not a more transparent or analytical sound but rather the music is more `FORTE'. I'm primarily using my HD800 and TH600, both sound excellent with DAVE. 
  
 I find it astonishing that DAVE combines a superlative DAC/amp in a relatively transportable package and it's great fun taking DAVE from room to room with just a laptop, cables and headphones. Great stuff.   
  
 Quote:


bmichels said:


> I am happy for you that you reacted your Sonic nirvâna. Are you using DAVE internal headphone amp or do you connect DAVE to your Wells Audio Headtrip ? What headphone are you using ?


----------



## bmichels

smial1966 said:


>





> it's great fun taking DAVE from room to room with just a laptop, cables and headphones. Great stuff.


 
  
 Agree.  I wish DAVE was battery operated like the TT (even if it needs a BIG battery, it was still possible !).


----------



## lovethatsound

Well I've been running my Dave in for a while now,and i have to say I've never heard red book cd sound so great.Just got a few questions for Rob or chord to answer if you'd be so kind.
1 what are the 4x dx digital outputs for?
2 How much power does dave use in standby?
3 Do you know when the blu transport upgrade will be available,and much it will cost?
Happy new year to all.


----------



## bmichels

lovethatsound said:


> Well I've been running my Dave in for a while now,and i have to say I've never heard red book cd sound so great.Just got a few questions for Rob or chord to answer if you'd be so kind.
> 1 what are the 4x dx digital outputs for?
> 2 How much power does dave use in standby?
> 3 Do you know when the blu transport upgrade will be available,and much it will cost?
> Happy new year to all.


 
  
 blu transport upgrade ???  where does this info/rumor comes from ?


----------



## ecwl

lovethatsound said:


> Well I've been running my Dave in for a while now,and i have to say I've never heard red book cd sound so great.Just got a few questions for Rob or chord to answer if you'd be so kind.
> 1 what are the 4x dx digital outputs for?
> 2 How much power does dave use in standby?
> 3 Do you know when the blu transport upgrade will be available,and much it will cost?
> Happy new year to all.




The DX digital output is for a future product whic would probably be an amplifier which can take 786kHz 24-bit? Signal coming from the DX digital output. This was discussed a couple of times by Rob Watts in this thread. I don't know the answers to the rest of your questions. But I'm not sure what more upgrades Blu transport needs. I suspect the next upgrade should be a DSX1000 type product without the DAC as there are many advantages to computer audio. That said, people can now buy Aurender or Auralic or SOTM products already to pair with their Chord DAVE.


----------



## bmichels

lovethatsound said:


> Well I've been running my Dave in for a while now,and i have to say I've never heard red book cd sound so great.Just got a few questions for Rob or chord to answer if you'd be so kind.
> 1 what are the 4x dx digital outputs for?
> 2 How much power does dave use in standby?
> 3 Do you know when the blu transport upgrade will be available,and much it will cost?
> Happy new year to all.


 
  
*BLU 2... The Force Awakens !   *
  
  
 


----------



## Mavwong

Finally HEK is here!


----------



## bmichels

mavwong said:


> Finally HEK is here!


 
  
 I am glad for you that you have a new toy       please let us know if it synergies well with DAVE.


----------



## smial1966

Very happy for you. Please comment on the synergy between the HEK and DAVE. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Quote:


mavwong said:


> Finally HEK is here!


----------



## Mavwong

I own HD800, beyer T1, LCD2v2, and of course the crazy HD600. I also audit the LCD3, grado p1000, g1000, pretty virgin LCD4 during Nov show. After around of buy and sell, I decided that HP is not for me. I just can't find one that play all sorts of music, high is clear and sweet, mid is right, bass have body, could portray ambient correctly. Lolz, people said I ask for too much, as I come from speaker base hifi.
  
  
 Till I heard the HEK with Dave. My passion for HP comes back again. I am not saying HEK is without fault. I hope that the mid could be thicker, bass more body, the rest I am more than happy. If you think you want characteristic of HD800, LCD2, and T1, I believe HEK could be the one. And Dave drive HEK without problem at all. HEK could extract full potential of Dave is all I can say. For me I do consider pairing it with violectric 281 driving HEK in balance mode.
  
 Bare in mid that my HEK only 8hr old and still running in stock setup. I strongly believe once I move to my main system its another story.


----------



## Mython

mavwong said:


> Till I heard the HEK with Dave. My passion for HP comes back again. I am not saying HEK is without fault. I hope that the mid could be thicker, bass more body, the rest I am more than happy. If you think you want characteristic of HD800, LCD2, and T1, I believe HEK could be the one. And Dave drive HEK without problem at all. HEK could extract full potential of Dave is all I can say. For me I do consider pairing it with violectric 281 driving HEK in balance mode.


 
  
  
 If you're using the HE1000 with DAVE, then I really think you should get the most out of your investment, and run DAVE into one of these, with a headphone amp afterwards:
  

  
  
 I'm confident Rob would approve


----------



## Rob Watts

I was talking to Jude about the jitter test on the APX 555, and I wanted some plots of Jitter for Dave. So here is jitter test using the USB input:
  

  
  This is with 48 kHz sample rate, using the J-test which is a test for data related jitter.
  
 Any data related jitter would be multiples of 250 Hz either side of the 12 kHz signal - as you can see there is *none* whatsoever.
  
 The -170 dB noise floor represents jitter of 100 fS (0.1pS) RMS, so we can safely say that data related jitter is less than 0.1 pS.
  
 You can just make out mains related jitter at 0.2 pS - this probably comes from the AP ADC as its always there.
  
 The fringing on the 12 kHz below -150 dB is down to the APX555 FFT's Hann window, it is not LF jitter from Dave.
  
 Rob


----------



## JaZZ

mython said:


> mavwong said:
> 
> 
> > Till I heard the HEK with Dave. My passion for HP comes back again. I am not saying HEK is without fault. I hope that the mid could be thicker, bass more body, the rest I am more than happy. If you think you want characteristic of HD800, LCD2, and T1, I believe HEK could be the one. And Dave drive HEK without problem at all. HEK could extract full potential of Dave is all I can say. For me I do consider pairing it with violectric 281 driving HEK in balance mode.
> ...


 
  
 Good one! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I also shook my head when I read this...
   





> For me I do consider pairing it with violectric 281 driving HEK in balance mode.


----------



## bmichels

Any feedback from CHORD about the rumor of this *"new version" of BLU ?*


----------



## AndrewOld

rob watts said:


> I was talking to Jude about the jitter test on the APX 555, and I wanted some plots of Jitter for Dave. So here is jitter test using the USB input:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Incredible! Just out of interest .. would you have a similar measurement for a Hugo TT?(which has been giving me great pleasure since i bought one).


----------



## Beolab

Hi

So you almost think your HeadTrip amp is overkill when the sound from DAVE alone is almost identical, or is the higher Forte and better bass / visceral dynamics worth the extra $7000 for the Headtrip? 

Why im asking you is because i have order the DAVE and will be using them with my Abyss headphones and guessing the sound are going to be a bit thin , and need som e extra grunt in form of a HeadTrip? 

Should i order it, or what is your oppinion?


----------



## Kamil21

rob watts said:


> I was talking to Jude about the jitter test on the APX 555, and I wanted some plots of Jitter for Dave. So here is jitter test using the USB input:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Any idea how well EMI noise (direct or induced) is rejected? I am hoping that with figures like these, I could save a lot of money in the choice of USB cables and exotic streamers.


----------



## Rob Watts

Dave is insensitive to the digital source, assuming the data is bit perfect.
  
 That said, although Dave is insensitive to RF noise and jitter,that doesn't mean the rest of your system isn't! But the problem has been reduced by at least an order of magnitude, so I don't worry about the source with Dave.
  
 Rob


----------



## paul79

Hey Rob,
  
 That is a huge claim there... Not looking to start a fire, it is just so far out of the norm. All of the DAC's I have tried are all sensitive to jitter, and or the digital source quality.
  
 Are you saying that so long as the data is bit perfect, the digital source does not matter when using the DAVE?? Is that for all inputs?   VERY INTERESTING if that is indeed what you are claiming.
  
 Thanks very much
 Paul


----------



## smial1966

Beolab,
  
 I've had the Headtrip over a year now and it's an outstanding headphone amplifier capable of driving anything superbly well. Whether it's worth the coin is personal choice, but I know that Jeff (Wells Audio) also makes the Enigma which is basically a Headtrip without the Bybee `enhancements' for $4000 - the power output matches the Headtrips.
  
 I have only briefly hooked DAVE up to my Headtrip but it definitely adds a bit of muscularity to the sound, with bass notes sounding deeper and more visceral. Also, vocals seem more holographic and powerful, so it's definitely worth adding an amplifier if you're seeking the nth degree of 'Forte' from your listening.
  
 If I had an HE-6 or Abyss headphones I'd probably leave DAVE hooked up to the Headtrip (or other suitably powerful headphone amplifier) as they'd definitely benefit from the increased grunt, but I'm really enjoying DAVE's inbuilt amp with my HD800. To have a transportable DAC/amp that I can easily move from room to room with just a laptop, leads and headphones, and that sounds this good is truly amazing.
  
 Quote:
  


beolab said:


> Hi
> 
> So you almost think your HeadTrip amp is overkill when the sound from DAVE alone is almost identical, or is the higher Forte and better bass / visceral dynamics worth the extra $7000 for the Headtrip?
> 
> ...


----------



## Beolab

Yes i considdered the Enigma at first, but i have not any possybillity to try them out before buying, so i hope the HeadTrip are worth the extra $$ . 

Then i contacted Jeff, and he told me that the HeadTrip/Enigma are not Balanced any more, do you know if yours is balanced or not? 

I also read an article that claims a Amp needs to be speced to handle up to 1 Mhz in Bandwidth to not cut/filter the high resolution of your DAC/Source.


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Dave is insensitive to the digital source, assuming the data is bit perfect.
> 
> That said, although Dave is insensitive to RF noise and jitter,that doesn't mean the rest of your system isn't! But the problem has been reduced by at least an order of magnitude, so I don't worry about the source with Dave.
> 
> Rob




This is fantastic, so no need for a expensive CAD / Aurender / Auralic / expensive USB cables / Regen any more then !!  

Thats a world class and in the same time price worthy DAC / Amp you have constructed Rob ! 

I hope i can have mine for years without look for something else, the only thing would probably be a upgrade the DAVE to MQA when / if it hits the market .


----------



## ubs28

jazz said:


> Coax is the only connection the X5 II offers.
> 
> Don't worry, the HD 800 (S) sounds equally phenomenal with DAVE.
> 
> ...


 

 Does Dave drive the HD800 (S) very good? Do you need an additional amplifier? Maybe next year I might consider Dave since I did alot of christmas shopping already.


----------



## Pokemonn

Does anyone try Dave + Stax SR-009 combo? how does it sounds?


----------



## Jawed

beolab said:


> I also read an article that claims a Amp needs to be speced to handle up to 1 Mhz in Bandwidth to not cut/filter the high resolution of your DAC/Source.



It would seem that allowing those high frequencies to leave the DAC/source is the real problem:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1050#post_12172918

They muck up the following components.

Rob has posted so much information it's probably best to go read his post history if you want to be informed.


----------



## Beolab

Would be intresting to know if Wells Audio HeadTrip are speced to handle 1 Mhz bandwidth, most probably not.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


paul79 said:


> Hey Rob,
> 
> That is a huge claim there... Not looking to start a fire, it is just so far out of the norm. All of the DAC's I have tried are all sensitive to jitter, and or the digital source quality.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Since the Hugo sounds less transparent when fed by the FiiO X5 instead of the X5 II, I tested Dave with both. Result: The sound is absolutely identical to my ears.
  
  


ubs28 said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I got mine earlier than expected, thanks to apparently good connections of the Swiss distributor. So I feel quite privileged, also under the financial aspect. It is certainly the most expensive device of my audio career.
  
 Yes, Dave drives the HD 800 to its full potential, as I see/hear it. Because I think it is the best or one of the best available sources, combined with an extremely powerful headphone output with a unique feature: there's no additional headphone-amp stage, the analogue signal from the DAC goes straight into the headphone drivers. This enables extremely low harmonic distortion and extraordinary purity and accuracy (I'll let Rob Watts explain, with reference to the Hugo). Line out and headphone out use the same path, hence there's no way to bypass any amplification stage, you'd have to use the very same signal you'd want to «improve» by means of an external amp. Logically it can't be _improved_, only altered – in the first place by adding harmonic distortion (again Rob Watts' explanations), which some may like, though.
  


pokemonn said:


> Does anyone try Dave + Stax SR-009 combo? how does it sounds?


 
  
 I don't own the SR-009 (sadly haven't auditioned it yet), but it sounds phenomenally clear and transparent with my Stax- (Lambda Pro and Signature Pro)-based electrostats.
  
  
 The headphone with the most use these days is the HE1000. You don't know how good it can sound – especially with Dave – before you have heard it properly equalized! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That applies to my other headphones as well (HD 800 included). So those who try to alter the sonic balance or whatever by the addition of a headphone amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 to «optimize» the sound should try to look into this option instead. With Dave I have to reduce the bass quite a bit compared to the settings for the Hugo, particularly the low bass.
  
 The most striking trait of Dave's sonic characteristic is its purity and clarity. It comes without any enhancement of detail or analyticalness, the music just flows effortlessly. At first I was a bit worried that the omnipresent cleanness could be too much for some «dirtier» genres. So I tried it with Jimi Hendrix' psychedelic blues. Well, yes, indeed it sounds cleaner than I'm used to and takes some getting used to it. But I can still feel the raw energy behind it. It's just that the raw edges are shifted further away, to where guitar and drum set seem to emanate, instead of the foreground.
  
 Where Dave shines the most is with classical music, particularly large orchestras. The threedimensionality is exceptional. You can hear exactly how far away a specific instrument is placed. Despite the detail and the richness there's so much air between the notes, enabling to detect finest nuances within reverberation. And then there's the sound of strings! I haven't heard string carpets reproduced so delicate and realistic before!
  
 This is certainly my end-game source. I'm curious how the competitors will react to it.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks for giving us your thoughts on Dave, Jazz. Purity seems to be high on the list of most new purchasers first impressions (as it was with mine.)

I just pulled out a remastered CD of Van Morrison 'The Healing Game'. I have always thought of this album as being one of his best for composition, musicianship and performance. I had the great priviledge of seeing Van and his band perform this album whilst I sat in the second row at Reading Hexagon. A truly special experience, enhanced by the exceptional acoustics. Unfortunately there isn't quite the clarity on this recording that I am used to with Van albums like 'Back on Top' for instance, a slight vail pervades the recording. However, having not played this since before I bought Dave I put it on. Yes there was clearly greater detail and solidity of image. As I listened to the brilliant track 'This Weight' it was clear that a veil had been lifted. The bass fingering of Nicky Scott was noticeably busy and certainly more clearly defined than before. However, what really stood out was the dynamics. If the original producer had dropped the ball on ultimate clarity he certainly didn't lose the dynamics. They are exceptional. Dave is the first Dac to show this to me. 

What a wonderful collection of songs. I have been lost in the performance for the last hour.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

When you think about it Dave has broken decent new ground in almost every aspect of musical presentation and not by a small margin in most aspects. Musicality, emotion, purity of sound, dynamics, noise floor, distortion, jitter, bass clarity, separation and punch, imaging, breadth/depth of soundstage.......No small feat Rob.

Just put the Van CD on repeat. Woah those dynamics? 'Burning Ground' could move walls!


----------



## JaZZ

While it sounds excellent at low levels, I often find myself listening louder than with the Hugo – also because the sound is so ear-friendly –, which makes it sound all the more realistic. It's not the often mentioned «magic», it's mere realism, which I value even higher.


----------



## Hubert H

I've found that as my equipment has got better (distortion being a limiting factor), the louder I listen. This doesn't bode well for the Dave as I may disturb the neighbours and they live 80 metres away.
  
 I will be listening to Dave sometime this month and I have a suspicion that it will be a relatively cheap buy, a bargain possibly.
  
 H.


----------



## Rob Watts

paul79 said:


> Hey Rob,
> 
> That is a huge claim there... Not looking to start a fire, it is just so far out of the norm. All of the DAC's I have tried are all sensitive to jitter, and or the digital source quality.
> 
> ...


 
 Going back to when Hugo first came out, I noticed different SQ with different lap-tops and PC's.
  
 Now the problem is definitely not jitter from the source - my DAC's can tolerate 2uS of jitter and it will have zero difference to the measurements - also the USB is isochronous asynchronous so the timing comes from the DAC clock, so source jitter is not a problem.
  
 So I looked into the issue of different SQ with sources and found two sources of error:
  
 1. RF noise. RF noise is a major pain with audio. With analogue electronics, very tiny amounts of RF noise will cause intermodulation distortion with the audio signal, and the intermodulation products is noise floor modulation. The effect is that the noise floor changes with signal level, and the effect is very audible - you perceive it as a brightness to the sound quality. Less noise floor modulation, smoother sound quality. The curious thing about this is that the brain is very sensitive to it, so you can easily hear it. Problem is that many listeners hear the brightness as more detail resolution, and so think it sounds better - but that's another story.
  
 2. Correlated current noise. If a tiny current that is signal related but distorted enters the ground plane, then this current will be a source of error, as the current in the ground plane induces small voltages. Now this then adds or subtracts to small signals, thus degrading small signal resolution - and this upsets the brains ability to calculate depth. Now one of the most fascinating things I discovered with Dave is there is no limit to how small this error can be without a degradation in depth perception - so it does not matter how small the error is it will have an impact.
  
 So the solution to the above problems is galvanic isolation. This means that RF noise from the source can't get into Dave, and small correlated currents can't get in too. And this approach gave two benefits - much smoother sound quality, and a deeper soundstage.
  
 Now with Dave I can no longer hear which source is connected, but before without the galvanic isolation it was easy to hear. Additionally, optical sounds almost identical to the USB, as optical is clearly galvanically isolated too.
  
 Rob


----------



## Kamil21

rob watts said:


> Going back to when Hugo first came out, I noticed different SQ with different lap-tops and PC's.
> 
> Now the problem is definitely not jitter from the source - my DAC's can tolerate 2uS of jitter and it will have zero difference to the measurements - also the USB is isochronous asynchronous so the timing comes from the DAC clock, so source jitter is not a problem.
> 
> ...




This is one of the best explanations I have heard so far. 

Now all I need is a long optical cable to ensure that my computer is as far away and power supply isolated from Dave and the rest of my system. Is anybody else able to validate this?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

kamil21 said:


> This is one of the best explanations I have heard so far.
> 
> Now all I need is a long optical cable to ensure that my computer is as far away and power supply isolated from Dave and the rest of my system. Is anybody else able to validate this?


 
  
 I would not use an optical cable longer than 1m Kamil.
  
 I have been testing some Coax, AES and optical cables. Even cheap optical (non glass) is surprisingly good at short lengths with Dave but I found that increasing the length to 2m was detrimental to SQ, Musicality and volume.
  
 If you want to go long then it may be worth trying Coax first I think.
  
 So far I have found Rob's claims to be right in that Dave does take away much of the hi-fi evils we have come accustomed to (and consequently pay so much to correct). Before anyone runs out and pays top dollar for a nice new hi-end cable to go with their Dave it may pay to spend a small amount on a cheap cable and compare with a demo top price cable. I think Rob has done some good work here and may have saved us on interconnect costs. I have two more hi-end coax to try before I arrive at a final conclusion.


----------



## Beolab

I would first of all not claim that im a electro engineer in any way, im a guy with very often a great comon sence and do not belive in all special snake-oil parts, cables, ghosts, or any like that sorts of things. 
But im always happy to try it out, but if i can not see it or hear any diffrence, and in most cases you cant, or if you can it is very often placebo, because the brain register and samples an incoming sound a slight different everytime you hear the same sound/song depending on if you are tired, have listening fatigue, because you have had an trip on your motorcycle the last hour, this can play a huge factor from time to time when you listen to your equipment, so if you one day buy a LH Lightning USB for $$$ and you are hearing a diffrence could be that you over sleept one hour and drank 2 coffes before you had the first listening on your new cable. 
But not everytime i should say. I have a tuff time to hear any diffrence btw digital cables, and power cables if they are in deacent quality to begin with. 
I read about a guy no names here, that had worked at Nordost Cables and he told us a story that the only way to make a power cable to sound diffrent was to make the conducters thinner and weaker on some spots along the twisty way, or make it thicker, because then the transformer was fed with a poorer or not as fluid current feed, so the sound can have some affect of this if the transformer is very poor and weak Great or bad?
 I think its better to spend that money on something else if you just want to make the sound to sound diffrent, because you cant control it in what way you want it to sound diffrent, if you are not happy with the result.
To me it like run in the woods when its pich black. 
 But hey! I can hear s diffrence in analog cables and when my neighbur put o their TV without sound, i just hear the high pitched sound from the cathodes in the TV, so im not complete death 


I think many hifi designers incl Rob most laph their buts off very often, when they are reading about peoples poor in dept technical knowhow, where they buy small gadgets, super snake-oil cables, granit weights, sandbags, homemade elegal electrical earthing, other made up solutions or self educated theories about HiFi, and thinking this have to be good, but in most cases it have been much worser or no diffrence at all if you try to measure it, because it is very easy to trick someone when it comes to sound, its a little bit harder when it comes picture area. 
This is because of the big loss of kowlage and great mass of belivers that trust the not so trustfull reviewers and many developers that see the big $$$ bucks when it is so easy to trick people like pills for instant 20 pounds of weightloss in one day and so on.. 

My point to this statement is that the big designers like Rob for example can by his huge kowlage and experience in testing and designing, tweak away all of the second descending factors that involes the incoming signal weaknesses, thats huge!


----------



## Christer

Hello Rob, as a generally very  happy but sometimes  a bit frustrated owner of HUGO, for two years now,I would like to know if galvanic isolation can be added to HUGO ?
 When as now  during the winter,I am  often  out in a simple hut in the jungle without any other electrical appliances running and polluting SQ, HUGO sounds very good indeed via my HD800 headphones.Both my Macbook Pro and HUGO running of battery., But sometimes at home via my  electrostatic speakers I encounter the problems you describe and they are immediately noticable.
 I certainly do not mistake unnatural overbrightness for better sound. I know very well how an orchestra sounds live. and there is none of the digital brightness so often heard especially via low res digital recordings to hear from a good orchestra in a good hall.
 If galvanic isolation can't be added,will there be a new portable model that actually includes it?
 I know that the  German classical recording  label Acousence ,which by the way also produces some very realistic recordings  24/192 pcm, offers a  galvanic isolation unit that can be used with some dacs that lack it. Would you know if their unit would work with HUGO?
  
 My next live music HI  FI  Reference Calibration, will be in KL on the 22/1 and 23/1.Mahler's 9th.
 Cheers  from Chris in the tropics.


----------



## Currawong

christer said:


> Hello Rob, as a generally very  happy but sometimes  a bit frustrated owner of HUGO, for two years now,I would like to know if galvanic isolation can be added to HUGO ?
> When as now  during the winter,I am  often  out in a simple hut in the jungle without any other electrical appliances running and polluting SQ, HUGO sounds very good indeed via my HD800 headphones.Both my Macbook Pro and HUGO running of battery., But sometimes at home via my  electrostatic speakers I encounter the problems you describe and they are immediately noticable.
> I certainly do not mistake unnatural overbrightness for better sound. I know very well how an orchestra sounds live. and there is none of the digital brightness so often heard especially via low res digital recordings to hear from a good orchestra in a good hall.
> If galvanic isolation can't be added,will there be a new portable model that actually includes it?
> ...


 

 I was using mine with a Schiit Audio Wyrd. That I felt made a significant improvement. It isn't portable, however.


----------



## Mavwong

U can try usb regen. Not true galv iso but it does improve if you choose he right power source. I would suggest 4AA ENELOOP. 





christer said:


> Hello Rob, as a generally very  happy but sometimes  a bit frustrated owner of HUGO, for two years now,I would like to know if galvanic isolation can be added to HUGO ?
> When as now  during the winter,I am  often  out in a simple hut in the jungle without any other electrical appliances running and polluting SQ, HUGO sounds very good indeed via my HD800 headphones.Both my Macbook Pro and HUGO running of battery., But sometimes at home via my  electrostatic speakers I encounter the problems you describe and they are immediately noticable.
> I certainly do not mistake unnatural overbrightness for better sound. I know very well how an orchestra sounds live. and there is none of the digital brightness so often heard especially via low res digital recordings to hear from a good orchestra in a good hall.
> If galvanic isolation can't be added,will there be a new portable model that actually includes it?
> ...


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

beolab said:


> I would first of all not claim that im a electro engineer in any way, im a guy with very often a great comon sence and do not belive in all special snake-oil parts, cables, ghosts, or any like that sorts of things.
> But im always happy to try it out, but if i can not see it or hear any diffrence, and in most cases you cant, or if you can it is very often placebo, because the brain register and samples an incoming sound a slight different everytime you hear the same sound/song depending on if you are tired, have listening fatigue, because you have had an trip on your motorcycle the last hour, this can play a huge factor from time to time when you listen to your equipment, so if you one day buy a LH Lightning USB for $$$ and you are hearing a diffrence could be that you over sleept one hour and drank 2 coffes before you had the first listening on your new cable.
> But not everytime i should say. I have a tuff time to hear any diffrence btw digital cables, and power cables if they are in deacent quality to begin with.
> I read about a guy no names here, that had worked at Nordost Cables and he told us a story that the only way to make a power cable to sound diffrent was to make the conducters thinner and weaker on some spots along the twisty way, or make it thicker, because then the transformer was fed with a poorer or not as fluid current feed, so the sound can have some affect of this if the transformer is very poor and weak Great or bad?
> ...


 
  
 I have always found that power cables affect dynamics and warmth. The former can affect musicality and the latter is probably a result of good shielding (or not). I have tried a number of power cables which have done the latter pretty well but very few that enhance musicality. As you allude to, it is probably more a flow issue but it is not about sound. To my ears at least it is the dynamics that change.


----------



## Hiyono

Thanks Robb for all the great information.

I'm interested in knowing what type of power supply is inside of Dave. It's great knowing great care was taken into eliminating the need for an exotic usb cable. Is there something done we dont need a very expensive power cable also?

I'll be picking up my Dave next week when I meet up my friends in Tokyo. Does anyone have a recommendation on power cables? I was planning to grabbing one there. I personally want to try shunyata but it's harder to get overseas. Thinking of trying something else until I get a chance to go back to the states. Maybe that new filtered furutech cable would be good?


----------



## Christer

Hello  mavvong,
 and thanks for the advice. Do you know if any of the shops at the Adelphi stocks it?
 I will be back in Singapore again  on the 7th February.
 Hopefully AV 1 will have a Dave for demo by then.
 I am  a bit tempted to buy HE 1000 headphones from them too. 
 But I need to audition the new HD800S as well before deciding which is the best ,most neutral and  accurate and resolving and  transparent on large scale acoustic music  of them.


----------



## Beolab

smial1966 said:


>


 

 Hi smail1966
  
 I think i place my order on the HeadTrip, but just want to ask some minor questions to you before.
  
 Have you have had time to listen for a more extended time on DAVE in combination with the HeadTrip yet?
  
 And second can you place DAVE in a LINE OUT mode as on the Hugo, or do you turn upp the volume on the DAVE and then regulate on the HeadTrip for pitperfect and for best sound ?
  
 All the guys in the Abyss thread screams Moon 600i instead of the HeadTrip ;(, whats your opinion?


----------



## lovethatsound

beolab said:


> Hi smail1966
> 
> I think i place my order on the HeadTrip, but just want to ask some minor questions to you before.
> 
> ...


You put DAVE in dac mode when you use a different headphone amp.


----------



## smial1966

Beolab,
  
 I haven't felt the need to connect DAVE to my Headtrip again as it drives the HD800 beautifully.
  
 There is a *DAC* *Mode* and this function is described in detail at the top of page 10 in the instruction manual:
  
 http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/files/Dave%20Manual.pdf 
  
 Jeff designed the Headtrip specifically with the Abyss cans in mind so there should be excellent synergy between them. 
  
 Quote:


beolab said:


> Hi smail1966
> 
> I think i place my order on the HeadTrip, but just want to ask some minor questions to you before.
> 
> ...


----------



## Beolab

smial1966 said:


>


 

 Last question =)
  
 Do you hear any big diffrence when you feed the Headtrip with balanced signal 6 volt vs Single RCA 3 Volts, or is it even according to Rob ?


----------



## smial1966

Only used RCA thus far, but perhaps other DAVE owners could kindly comment about this. 
  
 Quote:


beolab said:


> Last question =)
> 
> Do you hear any big diffrence when you feed the Headtrip with balanced signal 6 volt vs Single RCA 3 Volts, or is it even according to Rob ?


----------



## Mavwong

Unfortunately no. I purchase it direct from uptone in US.
  
 As for end Dec, there's already a demo Dave in the showroom. But it might be sold if there's customer interest.
  
 For me I have not heard the HD800S but the older version HD800. I opt for HEK  Do go for audit with the combo, that's how I get poison lolz.
  
  
  
  
 Quote:


christer said:


> Hello  mavvong,
> and thanks for the advice. Do you know if any of the shops at the Adelphi stocks it?
> I will be back in Singapore again  on the 7th February.
> Hopefully AV 1 will have a Dave for demo by then.
> ...


----------



## Mavwong

Finally today I get to hear the Dave in my main speaker system.
  
 Stage is so accurate, so transparent! My system never sounded so good before. Background is pitch black, yet high is airy, clear, with so much detail. Bass is deep yet control with texture. Like many said before, once music starts, I couldn't stop
  
 http://www.136888.com/new/goods.php?id=3001823, Those who could understand chinese, this album is a must get, last track is a live recording in studio.


----------



## rkt31

try Fiona joy signature solo too. it's a great work and recorded very accurately and cleanly !


----------



## Hiyono

Anyone in Tokyo interesting in meeting and hang out?  I am receiving my Dave from my friend on the 10th.  I'll have free time between the 14th-16th.  Interested in making new friends with similar hobbies.


----------



## lovethatsound

hiyono said:


> Anyone in Tokyo interesting in meeting and hang out?  I am receiving my Dave from my friend on the 10th.  I'll have free time between the 14th-16th.  Interested in making new friends with similar hobbies.


I'm sorry,but once you start listing to DAVE you'll find you don't have any free time.


----------



## Beolab

This is a unique opportunity / comparison!! 

Simon alias Isquirrel are about to loan a friends Chord DAVE in a few days and compare it to his MSB Select II DAC. Very interesting to see if the DAVE can hold up against the $99999 MSB Select II. 


http://www.head-fi.org/t/613387/msb-analog-dac-review-p3/450_50


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Going back to when Hugo first came out, I noticed different SQ with different lap-tops and PC's.
> 
> Now the problem is definitely not jitter from the source - my DAC's can tolerate 2uS of jitter and it will have zero difference to the measurements - also the USB is isochronous asynchronous so the timing comes from the DAC clock, so source jitter is not a problem.
> 
> ...




Zero jitter means in almost that you can use a BlueSound Node / Iphone with camera kit or a High End Aurender / CAD , end the sound should end up almost the same! 

This is huge Rob!


----------



## highendhifi

beolab said:


> I would first of all not claim that im a electro engineer in any way, im a guy with very often a great comon sence and do not belive in all special snake-oil parts, cables, ghosts, or any like that sorts of things.
> But im always happy to try it out, but if i can not see it or hear any diffrence, and in most cases you cant, or if you can it is very often placebo, because the brain register and samples an incoming sound a slight different everytime you hear the same sound/song depending on if you are tired, have listening fatigue, because you have had an trip on your motorcycle the last hour, this can play a huge factor from time to time when you listen to your equipment, so if you one day buy a LH Lightning USB for $$$ and you are hearing a diffrence could be that you over sleept one hour and drank 2 coffes before you had the first listening on your new cable.
> But not everytime i should say. I have a tuff time to hear any diffrence btw digital cables, and power cables if they are in deacent quality to begin with.
> I read about a guy no names here, that had worked at Nordost Cables and he told us a story that the only way to make a power cable to sound diffrent was to make the conducters thinner and weaker on some spots along the twisty way, or make it thicker, because then the transformer was fed with a poorer or not as fluid current feed, so the sound can have some affect of this if the transformer is very poor and weak Great or bad?
> ...



One of the things I like about Rob and his approach is that he listens as much as, if not more than, he measures which for me, coming from a psychological background, is vital in the experience of listening to music. This is where cables, stands, filters, weights, etc all start to impact on the listening-even in cases where changes can't be externally measured. It's precisely because the brain "hears" differently as a result of mood, alertness, anxiety, expected change, volume, brightness, even light levels! My point here is that this gets us into the very vague and nebulous area of what is "real"-if it is heard then it is real, arguably. The important thing is to keep an item in place for some time to acclimatise to the sound and to listen to music through it over many different times and occasions to try and account for these effects. 
Just my tuppence of course.


----------



## Beolab

highendhifi said:


> One of the things I like about Rob and his approach is that he listens as much as, if not more than, he measures which for me, coming from a psychological background, is vital in the experience of listening to music. This is where cables, stands, filters, weights, etc all start to impact on the listening-even in cases where changes can't be externally measured. It's precisely because the brain "hears" differently as a result of mood, alertness, anxiety, expected change, volume, brightness, even light levels! My point here is that this gets us into the very vague and nebulous area of what is "real"-if it is heard then it is real, arguably. The important thing is to keep an item in place for some time to acclimatise to the sound and to listen to music through it over many different times and occasions to try and account for these effects.
> Just my tuppence of course.




Agree with you totally !


----------



## Hiyono

I'm super excited. I'll have mine in 17hrs.


----------



## lovethatsound

hiyono said:


> I'm super excited. I'll have mine in 17hrs.


maybe you could do an unboxing of a chord DAVE on here.


----------



## Hiyono

I can video an unbox it from a pelican case -.-.  My friend unboxed it for me and put it into it.  I thought It would be more exciting but just two pieces of foam holding the Dave and a few wires.


lovethatsound said:


> maybe you could do an unboxing of a chord DAVE on here.


----------



## Sonic77

I'll be receiving my DAVE Dac on Tuesday


----------



## Mython

...and a few thousand people stopping by the Chord booth, at CES, for a listen to Mojo & DAVE - which means there should soon be an avalanche of impressions regarding DAVE - good news for those of us who have little option but to experience this DAC in a vicarious manner, until such time as we can afford one!


----------



## estreeter

Not sure what all the sticker shock is here - *prior to the Qute/Hugo, Chord's sticker prices were all eye-watering*. No small irony that those of us who did buy the Hugo copped an earful from people who'd never even heard it. We're slowly being condition to accept that 'serious' headphones cost $1500+ and the components needed to drive them at least that much again. I'm not trying to start a class war, simply telling it as I see it : the headphone end of the insane hobby known as 'high end audio' was definitely the cheap route to good sound when I joined this board but I'm no longer so sure that's the case when we buy 5 of everything year in and year out while the guy with the speaker rig steadily updates one piece at a time over a period of several years. Some might suggest that DAVE (or Gumby/DACute/Berkeley Reference/whatever) is the 'last DAC you'll ever need' but most of us have been here long enough to recognise that as a great marketing spiel and little else. 
  
 (I dont have to look at the price of high-end DACs to know where this is heading : I only need to look at what audiophiles are willing to pay for tonearms, cartridges, phono and line stages to know that boutique audio companies have their market right where they want them. By the short and curlies   )


----------



## Mython

I don't know if the above was aimed at me, or not.
  
  
 Just for the record, I personally take no issue with DAVEs pricing. It is a cutting-edge product, & the fruit of one man's research, over several decades. It looks set to favourably compete with products costing double, triple, quadruple as much (forthcoming professional reviews will certainly be interesting, as the industry has never before witnessed DAVEs technical level of performance, in a number of important areas of digital processing)
  
 I merely cannot afford it, at this point in time.
  
 For those who can - more power to you and I wish you much enjoyment.


----------



## Shini44

btw people is the DAVE powerful enough (no external amp) to drive the HE-6 without me being in a need for external amp ?
  
 i mean can the DAVE get the best out of it? and without help ofc.
  
  
 Quote:


hiyono said:


> I can video an unbox it from a pelican case -.-.  My friend unboxed it for me and put it into it.  I thought It would be more exciting but just two pieces of foam holding the Dave and a few wires.


 
  


sonic77 said:


> I'll be receiving my DAVE Dac on Tuesday


 
 oh can't wait for the impressions of "out of the box" and the later impressions


----------



## Beolab

shini44 said:


> oh can't wait for the impressions of "out of the box" and the later impressions




Yes the DAVE can drive them, but i would not think to 100% and it also depending on how high you want to listen. 

So a good powerfull amp is not a bad thing to have as a extra tool when you want to listen with more power  

This is just my estimation if i look at the power on DAVE vs HE-6 sensitivity spec.


----------



## Shini44

beolab said:


> Yes the DAVE can drive them, but i would not think to 100% and it also depending on how high you want to listen.
> 
> So a good powerfull amp is not a bad thing to have as a extra tool when you want to listen with more power
> 
> ...


 
 no DAVE owner here have tryed the combo? O-o''  
  
 i hope someone did


----------



## ecwl

I see you have the Chord Hugo TT. Did that drive the HE6 to your satisfaction? It should give 320mW into 56 ohms. I think Chord DAVE can get you 6.8V and about 750mW so you'll get even more juice. But as Beolab says, it all depends on how loud you listen. So just because someone else in the forum says they've tried the HE6 with the DAVE and it is great doesn't mean it will work for you because the other person may just prefer listening at lower volumes. I find I generally listen at 6-15dB lower volume than most people I know.


----------



## Shini44

ecwl said:


> I see you have the Chord Hugo TT. Did that drive the HE6 to your satisfaction? It should give 320mW into 56 ohms. I think Chord DAVE can get you 6.8V and about 750mW so you'll get even more juice. But as Beolab says, it all depends on how loud you listen. So just because someone else in the forum says they've tried the HE6 with the DAVE and it is great doesn't mean it will work for you because the other person may just prefer listening at lower volumes. I find I generally listen at 6-15dB lower volume than most people I know.


 
 didn't buy the HE6 yet, thats why i am asking around
  
 i assume i will get me some vintage speaker amp and hook it to the Hugo TT later and enjoy the combo before i upgrade to a better speaker amp.
  
  
  
 on how loud i listen, hmm on the TT + LCD2 i get the volume up till the color is white or purple , depend on the track  still sound smooth , not harsh. 
  
 but mostly purple or blue, this is loud? or normal?  if this is normal then the TT or DAVE will be good for my preference?


----------



## ecwl

That sounds loud to me. Considering LCD2 has a sensitivity of 101dB and HE6 84dB. I usually listen in the red with my Mojo with headphones of similar sensitivity as the LCD2. I'm now more sceptical that the Chord Dave (or Hugo TT) would drive the HE6 adequately for you. But then you never know till you try. At least you know what to ask for when someone on the forum does have a DAVE and HE6.


----------



## Beolab

shini44 said:


> didn't buy the HE6 yet, thats why i am asking around
> 
> i assume i will get me some vintage speaker amp and hook it to the Hugo TT later and enjoy the combo before i upgrade to a better speaker amp.
> 
> ...




I think your ears are like mine, you dont like to listen at high volume, but you feeling the need to higher the level until you hear the individual FQ-bands are more equal. 

Often on a less powerfull amp you need to higher the volume before you feel satisfied with the sound performance, and on a more powerfull amp you dont need to have so high volume. This is my findings so far in the Amp jungle  

And i think Chord Hugo / TT have a great drive , but gets a little thinner in the mids. 

So i say maybe its a match with Dave.


----------



## Shini44

beolab said:


> I think your ears are like mine, you dont like to listen high but you higher the volume a little untill you hear the individual bands are equal.
> 
> Often on a less powerfull amp you need to higher the volume before you feel satisfyed with tje sound performance, and on a more powerfull amp you dont need to have so high volume. Tis my findings.
> 
> ...


 
 i am going with Dave anyway  
  
 thanks for the info ^^ lets hope i won't need a big speaker amp


----------



## Beolab

shini44 said:


> i am going with Dave anyway
> 
> thanks for the info ^^ lets hope i won't need a big speaker amp




Please come back with your impressions when you have received the DAVE how it works out with the HE-6 can be very good to know other HeadFi:ers . 

Are you going to order the Silver or Black Ed ?


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> Zero jitter means in almost that you can use a BlueSound Node / Iphone with camera kit or a High End Aurender / CAD , end the sound should end up almost the same!
> 
> This is huge Rob!


 
 I had a DAVE on home loan back in November and I connected it to my CAD CAT via Curious USB/USB Regen and it sounded glorious.  Because Rob had told me optical should sound almost as good as USB and had mentioned the DAVE was immune to source jitter, I compared the CAD CAT on USB against my Mac Pro on optical and with the identical bit-perfect file, I could not distinguish a difference.  With my TotalDac d1-monobloc, the difference was obvious and the CAD CAT was _clearly_ superior.  
  

  
 At CES this past week, I paid the DAVE a visit again.  As you can see in the photo, the DAVE was connected to a very basic Windows laptop using a cheap non-audiophile USB cable.  To add to the audacity, cheap 18g computer-grade power cables were used on both the DAVE and laptop and amazingly, the sound was as good as I remember, the best sound I have heard on headphones.
  

  

  
 Here are some further insights from Rob when I asked him about the benefits of using a very expensive high-end source like the Aurender W20:
  
"Its a bit more complex than that. Sure jitter is eliminated, and that's true of all my current DAC's. But there is more too it; RF and correlated noise from the source can have an influence too. For Dave, Hugo, TT and 2 Qute the DAC is insensitive to it - but the source noise can affect the rest of the system to a smaller degree.
  
But we are talking third order effects here, I can't hear a difference between a very noisy PC and a very low power source in my system. So no I wouldn't bother spending much on the transport - absolutely not from the sound quality POV."
  
 Regarding MQA, this was the the buzzword at CES this year, more so than Roon Ready.  Bob Stuart was there to promote MQA exclusively and it seemed MQA banners were everywhere with many vendors proudly proclaiming support for it.  Having sat through the demo and given the opportunity to A/B an MQA file using a Mytek Brooklyn DAC that had an MQA decoder built in that could be flipped on and off, it was impressive in the sense that with MQA on, the soundstage depth and the air around the notes increased in a similar way that you hear from the DAVE although with the DAVE, the magnitude of improvement was considerably greater.  It leaves me to wonder whether MQA is necessary with the DAVE or whether MQA could perhaps enhance the DAVE.  
  
 In case anyone is interested, here is the DAVE in black at CES, my preferred color.


----------



## Shini44

beolab said:


> Please come back with your impressions when you have received the DAVE how it works out with the HE-6 can be very good to know other HeadFi:ers .
> 
> Are you going to order the Silver or Black Ed ?


 
 not going to get it now, but this year hopefully , after i work soon
  
 just graduated. 
  
 and ofc Silver!


----------



## romaz

shini44 said:


> no DAVE owner here have tryed the combo? O-o''
> 
> i hope someone did


 
 I have not heard the DAVE with the HE-6 although I have heard it with the Abyss and I will say that I have never heard the Abyss sound better and for my tastes, there was adequate gain although with my HE-1000, the gain was expectedly greater.  I did notice one very strange anomaly, however.  Playing Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture, as the cannons exploded towards the end and with the volume pot set to max, I believe the DAVE clipped.  I had never heard a DAC clip until that moment and I was able to reproduce the phenomenon each time (I only tried twice).  I will say that it resulted in no damage to the DAVE or the Abyss.


----------



## isquirrel

romaz said:


> I had a DAVE on home loan back in November and I connected it to my CAD CAT via Curious USB/USB Regen and it sounded glorious.  Because Rob had told me optical should sound almost as good as USB and had mentioned the DAVE was immune to source jitter, I compared the CAD CAT on USB against my Mac Pro on optical and with the identical bit-perfect file, I could not distinguish a difference.  With my TotalDac d1-monobloc, the difference was obvious and the CAD CAT was _clearly_ superior.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thank for the report Roy, with a bit of luck I should be picking up both our DAVE's (in black 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) next week I will have some testing to do before sending the Aurender W20 back, I will try every input and try the CAT as well as Mac direct via optical. I still can't get my head around the notion that the source makes zero difference, it may do from a jitter perspective but if the if the info is not there I don't see how the DAVE or for that matter any DAC can re-invent it.
  
 Hmm scratching head, just need to do the tests and follow the science and see what my ears tell me. Did I mention that I like it in Black??


----------



## Jawed

If DAVE is like Hugo TT, then max output from DAVE will be >0dB, i.e. music recorded with 0dB peaks will clip. 

TT has about +17dB maximum gain, so the input shouldn't exceed -17dB if you want to run TT at maximum volume. DAVE is probably similar.


----------



## izzard1982

romaz said:


> I had a DAVE on home loan back in November and I connected it to my CAD CAT via Curious USB/USB Regen and it sounded glorious.  Because Rob had told me optical should sound almost as good as USB and had mentioned the DAVE was immune to source jitter, I compared the CAD CAT on USB against my Mac Pro on optical and with the identical bit-perfect file, I could not distinguish a difference.  With my TotalDac d1-monobloc, the difference was obvious and the CAD CAT was _clearly_ superior.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 romaz, what do you think the differences between Dave and D1 monobloc?


----------



## Shini44

romaz said:


> I have not heard the DAVE with the HE-6 although I have heard it with the Abyss and I will say that I have never heard the Abyss sound better and for my tastes, there was adequate gain although with my HE-1000, the gain was expectedly greater.  I did notice one very strange anomaly, however.  Playing Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture, as the cannons exploded towards the end and with the volume pot set to max, I believe the DAVE clipped.  I had never heard a DAC clip until that moment and I was able to reproduce the phenomenon each time (I only tried twice).  I will say that it resulted in no damage to the DAVE or the Abyss.


 
 sorry for being a noob here, what does clip means? 
  
 also someone reported that the HE-6 do clips at high volume when paired with the TT, not sure about the DAVE but if the HE1000 do the same then maybe the HE-6 too :<


----------



## StryGR

HE-6 means dedicated powerful amp only.
  
 Output voltage swing on these dacs is not enough, IMO.


----------



## Shini44

strygr said:


> HE-6 means dedicated powerful amp only.
> 
> Output voltage swing on these dacs is not enough, IMO.


 
 thanks for the info ^^ i will search for some external amp and read more, for the HE6 alone.


----------



## lovethatsound

romaz said:


> I have not heard the DAVE with the HE-6 although I have heard it with the Abyss and I will say that I have never heard the Abyss sound better and for my tastes, there was adequate gain although with my HE-1000, the gain was expectedly greater.  I did notice one very strange anomaly, however.  Playing Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture, as the cannons exploded towards the end and with the volume pot set to max, I believe the DAVE clipped.  I had never heard a DAC clip until that moment and I was able to reproduce the phenomenon each time (I only tried twice).  I will say that it resulted in no damage to the DAVE or the Abyss.







jawed said:


> If DAVE is like Hugo TT, then max output from DAVE will be >0dB, i.e. music recorded with 0dB peaks will clip.
> 
> TT has about +17dB maximum gain, so the input shouldn't exceed -17dB if you want to run TT at maximum volume. DAVE is probably similar.


I'm using the hd800 and as far as loudness goes the most ive had it on is -24 db,and that was too loud for me personally.On that note i really must congratulate Rob,because the hd800 sound totally amazing from the Dave.I do have a hdvd 800 amp and for all my other dacs i use it,but not with Dave.ive been running the Dave in now for nearly 2 weeks and it just keeps getting better,I would say that the sound coming out my hd800 is REAL music,and by that i mean it's like having the band or singer their with you.well done Rob,well done Chord.


----------



## lovethatsound

shini44 said:


> thanks for the info ^^ i will search for some external amp and read more, for the HE6 alone.


I'm gonna say something something here and it's not meant to upset anyone.I really feel after listening to Dave using it's own headphone output that maybe to get the best out of Dave with headphones you should get some headphones, Dave can drive with no problems.


----------



## romaz

strygr said:


> HE-6 means dedicated powerful amp only.
> 
> Output voltage swing on these dacs is not enough, IMO.


 
 I know what you're saying and I agree...to an extent.  Unlike electrostats, planars don't see voltage, they are driven only by current although because they have fixed impedance, the two are directly proportional.  There is the matter of peak current delivery which gives you your peak gain and then dynamic transient current delivery which gives you your punch and dynamic headroom.  This is where a good power supply and good non-limiting mains power makes a difference.  With relatively efficient planars like the HE-1000 and LCD-4, the punch is as good as I've ever experienced, this DAC hits hard even compared against something like a Wells Headtrip and because it hits you from a midnight black background, you feel like it hits even harder than the Headtrip.  I cannot speak for the HE-6 but with the Abyss, until clipping occurs, the dynamic punch is as good as I've heard.  If you like to listen to studio recordings at moderate levels, the dynamics will be there.  If you like to listen to wide dynamic range recordings (think live orchestra) at _headbanging_ levels, you probably will need an outboard amp with the Abyss or HE6 but you will give up speed and bandwidth and noise floor and the tradeoff will not be insignificant.  I suggest you try it without an amp and get an amp only if absolutely necessary.


----------



## Beolab

It is interesting times here at HeadFi ! 

You don't need Amps or high end streamers any more which i like the most! 
Just buy a Chord DAVE or a MSB Select II and you are set to go!  

(I have always been sceptic to all snake oiled streamers, because the "only" thing it should do is to decrypt the file as good correct as it can, and then send it to the external dac. Yes many things can go wrong but if the processor and the power supply are out of decent type and you are using SSD, then i don't find the Streamer as the highest priority in the chain, i see it like the server host at Tidal, it is your DAC that sets the bar for the sound. And if DAVE is total Jitter resistant as we can see in the measuring then the streamer are not so worth full any more as with other DACś. 

So my Headtrip can just stand under my table and collect dust when i receive my DAVE or if i occasionally would like listen to big orchestras on mind boggling levels 

@romaz ,what do you think the differences between Dave and D1 monobloc? 
The DAVE is better from what i understand when you said "the best sound i have ever heard from headphones" or?  

The Total most also be more jitter sensitive as you could hear a pretty big difference btw CAD CAT and optical from MacBook Pro i assume. 

Have great day


----------



## romaz

izzard1982 said:


> romaz, what do you think the differences between Dave and D1 monobloc?


 
 They share similar strengths, meaning an enthralling sense of dimensionality with respect to depth and air and the ability to present spatial cues.  Compared to other DACs, it's like 2D vs 3D.  They both have very natural, organic presentations.  The TotalDac has a slightly more relaxed presentation to my ears, the DAVE a slightly more energetic  and focused one.  It comes down to personal preference.  That the DAVE can do it out of a small chassis with an integrated switching PSU is simply amazing (the TotalDac d1-monobloc requires 6 boxes including the outboard linear PSUs).  That the DAVE can do it for half the price of the D1 monobloc is more amazing still.  
  
 The TotalDac and Chord DACs are unique in that they are the only DAC companies I am aware of where the manufacturer endorses connection of your headphone to the DAC signal directly without needing an outboard amp and the benefits of this direct signal connection are huge and cannot be overstated.  Those who are finding the DAVE to be the best thing they've ever heard, number of TAPS and Rob's special algorithms aside, I believe this is part of the reason.  It is certainly one of the reasons behind the magic of the TotalDac for me.  Where the DAVE pulls away from the TotalDac is Rob's ability to make the DAVE immune to the source.  While nothing sounds harsh with the TotalDac, the quality of the source definitely matters with it.  The TotalDac is reliant on the quality of what is upstream, such as USB cables, grounding, etc.  With the DAVE, these seem to be much more minor "3rd order" issues.  There is a certain high end DAC manufacturer that takes pride in their statement that their DAC is ruthlessly transparent, almost like giving itself an excuse when the music you hear doesn't sound right.  With the DAVE, it makes no excuses, what comes out just sounds correct.  
  
 Both the TotalDac and DAVE camps will claim superiority over the other and both will have justification for doing so.  Personally, I am a fan of both.  From the design and engineering to the build quality to the people that make up Chord and TotalDac, you cannot go wrong with either.  Ultimately, we speak loudest with our wallets and I have a black DAVE on order.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> They share similar strengths, meaning an enthralling sense of dimensionality with respect to depth and air and the ability to present spatial cues.  Compared to other DACs, it's like 2D vs 3D.  They both have very natural, organic presentations.  The TotalDac has a slightly more relaxed presentation to my ears, the DAVE a slightly more energetic  and focused one.  It comes down to personal preference.  That the DAVE can do it out of a small chassis with an integrated switching PSU is simply amazing (the TotalDac d1-monobloc requires 6 boxes including the outboard linear PSUs).  That the DAVE can do it for half the price of the D1 monobloc is more amazing still.  The TotalDac and Chord DACs are unique in that they are the only DAC companies I am aware of where the manufacturer endorses direct connection of your headphone to the DAC signal directly without needing an outboard amp and the benefits of this are huge and cannot be overstated.  Those who are finding the DAVE to be the best thing they've ever heard, number of TAPS and Rob's special algorithms aside, I believe this is part of the reason.  It is certainly one of the reasons behind the magic of the TotalDac for me.  Where the DAVE pulls away from the TotalDac is Rob's ability to make the DAVE immune to the source.  While nothing sounds harsh with the TotalDac, the quality of the source definitely matters with it.  The TotalDac is reliant on the quality of what is upstream, such as USB cables, grounding, etc.  With the DAVE, these seem to be much more minor "3rd order" issues.  There is a certain high end DAC manufacturer that takes pride in their statement that their DAC is ruthlessly transparent, almost like giving itself an excuse when the music you hear doesn't sound right.  With the DAVE, it makes no excuses, what comes out just sounds correct.  Both the TotalDac and DAVE camps will claim superiority over the other and both will have justification for doing so.  Personally, I am a fan of both.  From the design and engineering to the build quality to the people that make up Chord and TotalDac, you cannot go wrong with either.  Ultimately, we speak loudest with our wallets and I have a black DAVE on order.




And your belowmed TOTAL DAC STACK will not find a new home for wile or what's your now when you just ned one DAC , so whats your plan Roy ?

( Roy i think you have the best objective overview / knowledge fullness in your statments and postings, im very grateful for that! )


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> And your belowmed TOTAL DAC STACK will not find a new home for wile or what's your now when you just ned one DAC , so whats your plan Roy ?
> 
> ( Roy i think you have the best objective overview / knowledge fullness in your statments and postings, im very grateful for that! )


 
 Thanks.  Fortunately, my monoblocs have found a good home.


----------



## ecwl

romaz said:


> They share similar strengths, meaning an enthralling sense of dimensionality with respect to depth and air and the ability to present spatial cues.  Compared to other DACs, it's like 2D vs 3D.  They both have very natural, organic presentations.  The TotalDac has a slightly more relaxed presentation to my ears, the DAVE a slightly more energetic  and focused one.  It comes down to personal preference.  That the DAVE can do it out of a small chassis with an integrated switching PSU is simply amazing (the TotalDac d1-monobloc requires 6 boxes including the outboard linear PSUs).  That the DAVE can do it for half the price of the D1 monobloc is more amazing still.
> 
> The TotalDac and Chord DACs are unique in that they are the only DAC companies I am aware of where the manufacturer endorses connection of your headphone to the DAC signal directly without needing an outboard amp and the benefits of this direct signal connection are huge and cannot be overstated.  Those who are finding the DAVE to be the best thing they've ever heard, number of TAPS and Rob's special algorithms aside, I believe this is part of the reason.  It is certainly one of the reasons behind the magic of the TotalDac for me.  Where the DAVE pulls away from the TotalDac is Rob's ability to make the DAVE immune to the source.  While nothing sounds harsh with the TotalDac, the quality of the source definitely matters with it.  The TotalDac is reliant on the quality of what is upstream, such as USB cables, grounding, etc.  With the DAVE, these seem to be much more minor "3rd order" issues.  There is a certain high end DAC manufacturer that takes pride in their statement that their DAC is ruthlessly transparent, almost like giving itself an excuse when the music you hear doesn't sound right.  With the DAVE, it makes no excuses, what comes out just sounds correct.
> 
> Both the TotalDac and DAVE camps will claim superiority over the other and both will have justification for doing so.  Personally, I am a fan of both.  From the design and engineering to the build quality to the people that make up Chord and TotalDac, you cannot go wrong with either.  Ultimately, we speak loudest with our wallets and I have a black DAVE on order.


 
  
 It sounds like Romaz, you voted to keep your DAVE and got rid of TotalDAC. I've been refraining from commenting to avoid starting a flame war or looking like a troll. I'm waiting for my DAVE on order as well and haven't heard it. My main speaker system has QBD76HDSD and it is like TotalDAC in the sense that it's sensitive to source and power. But I also recently picked up a Mojo. And I have a friend who has the full MSB DAC IV stack with transport and MSB amplifier. I hope he doesn't read this because I don't think he'd be very pleased with me. He has kindly invited me to his home many times (and vice versa) to listen to his system. That said, the comparison I'm making is between Mojo + headphones / QBD76HDSD + my system and MSB DAC + system. So it's possible everything I said has nothing to do with the DACs.
  
 I think most of us here have read Rob Watts say that he believes his DACs are the most transparent because they have the most accurate reproduction of the original analog waveform. They are most accurate in terms of reproducing transients and they are most accurate because they have the least noise floor modulation. Because of the lack of taps, most DAC chips can't produce transients like Chord or R2R ladder DACs. But the problems with R2R ladder DACs are the noise floor modulation (which can be minimized slightly with closed form upsampling as in Schiit Yggradasil) and the low-level linearity (which can be somewhat mitigated by having multiple ladder DACs to average things out and by summing two R2R DACs for high and low signals as in Metrum Pavane). But interestingly, Rob Watts rarely comments on what the noise floor modulation sounds like (or for that matter low-level linearity problems). Romaz talks about TotalDAC sounding slightly soft. I have to admit, when I listened to MSB DAC IV, I don't find it soft. But there are two things that jump out at me. First is that the timbre of some drums sound different on the MSB than my Chord's. And even my old Benchmark DAC1 produces the drum timbre to be closer to the Chord than to the MSB. The timbre of the instruments vary from instrument to instrument. Some are very close to each other from DAC to DAC but others are quite different. This is not exclusive to drums but also to some midrange and treble instruments. Which one is more accurate? If I were to believe Rob Watts, I'd say it's Chord. The next thing I noticed with the MSB was that let's say there is an instrument that's somewhat soft and has a rhythmic sound throughout the track. When the instrument first comes in, it is very clear with the Chord & MSB, but as other instruments come in, particularly louder ones, the clarity of that softer instrument becomes somewhat lost or at least the timbre of that instrument change slightly with the MSB but not with Chord DACs. Now for most simple music, like vocals or chamber music, this is hardly noticeable. But for symphonic works, it becomes slightly more obvious. Is this what higher noise floor modulation sounds like? I don't know. Of course, I don't know if it's the chicken or the egg. I picked Chord QBD76HDSD because I like the sound and then I like Rob Watts's explanation of why I like the sound. Or is it that because Chord DACs are the closest to the original analog waveform of the music that I like Chord DACs?
  
 Ultimately, the challenge in my mind is that we do have different preferences to sound. In theory, we should want the most accurate reproduction for music so we would want headphones (or speakers) with a flat frequency response and no dynamic compression. But we all sometimes prefer headphones/speakers with carefully designed distortions. I wonder if the same is true for DACs. Except ironically, the distortions in most DACs are not by design, it is merely the limitation of the DAC technology used to produce the analog sound.


----------



## rkt31

yes that is time and again reported by so many reviewers that the timing of transients is the key behind the traits like musicality, timber, smoothness and non fatiguing sound of chord DACs. few reviewers may report this accuracy of transients as sharp ( not exactly bright ) treble. I don't know but such reviewers may have come from r2r or nos dacs. very high end r2r or nos DACs might have extremely clean power supply, high grade components, occ copper wiring etc etc, which certainly improves the sound but can't resolve the issue of accurately recreating the timing of transients. chord DACs by the way of using higher tap counts handle this issue like no other brand. that's what makes chord DACs so unique and accurate sounding.


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## rkt31

right now I use Hugo in my speaker set up with benchmark ahb2 amp. Hugo is fed by pioneer blu Ray player with audioquest jitterbug in both the USB input of pioneer blu Ray player. I happened to compare few other sources with Hugo. but clearly there is no comparison of them Hugo. Hugo with benchmark amp is so accurate in placing the instruments that one can literally measure the distance between the vocals and instruments in all three coordinates. right now i am not able to get Dave due to financial constraints but I wonder how will dave pair with benchmark ahb2 in low gain setting.


----------



## izzard1982

romaz said:


> They share similar strengths, meaning an enthralling sense of dimensionality with respect to depth and air and the ability to present spatial cues.  Compared to other DACs, it's like 2D vs 3D.  They both have very natural, organic presentations.  The TotalDac has a slightly more relaxed presentation to my ears, the DAVE a slightly more energetic  and focused one.  It comes down to personal preference.  That the DAVE can do it out of a small chassis with an integrated switching PSU is simply amazing (the TotalDac d1-monobloc requires 6 boxes including the outboard linear PSUs).  That the DAVE can do it for half the price of the D1 monobloc is more amazing still.
> 
> The TotalDac and Chord DACs are unique in that they are the only DAC companies I am aware of where the manufacturer endorses connection of your headphone to the DAC signal directly without needing an outboard amp and the benefits of this direct signal connection are huge and cannot be overstated.  Those who are finding the DAVE to be the best thing they've ever heard, number of TAPS and Rob's special algorithms aside, I believe this is part of the reason.  It is certainly one of the reasons behind the magic of the TotalDac for me.  Where the DAVE pulls away from the TotalDac is Rob's ability to make the DAVE immune to the source.  While nothing sounds harsh with the TotalDac, the quality of the source definitely matters with it.  The TotalDac is reliant on the quality of what is upstream, such as USB cables, grounding, etc.  With the DAVE, these seem to be much more minor "3rd order" issues.  There is a certain high end DAC manufacturer that takes pride in their statement that their DAC is ruthlessly transparent, almost like giving itself an excuse when the music you hear doesn't sound right.  With the DAVE, it makes no excuses, what comes out just sounds correct.
> 
> Both the TotalDac and DAVE camps will claim superiority over the other and both will have justification for doing so.  Personally, I am a fan of both.  From the design and engineering to the build quality to the people that make up Chord and TotalDac, you cannot go wrong with either.  Ultimately, we speak loudest with our wallets and I have a black DAVE on order.


 
 Thanks for your detailed response, it makes me really wanting to buy a DAVE. DAVE's power supply intrigued me and everyone in HIFI knows that it's critical to have a clean power supply to get the best results from a component. Do you happen to know more details about DAVE's power supply? And if better power treatment improves its performance like most of other products do?


----------



## isquirrel

I am going the list of folks who are waiting on my Black DAVE to turn up, I have also had a MSB Select II DAC on order, but having owned plenty of Chord products before I have other plans for the DAVE, it is very similar in size to the QBD 76 HDSD which I owned for a while and so will be going me for my trips to the UK and Europe. Roy and I have been exploring all sorts of server options and hopefully both our DAVE's will arrive next week so I will be run a whole suite of tests with a variety of sources. I hope that as Rob says that it is truly source agnostic, I have trouble accepting that however I have an open mind. I wonder now that the Mojo has been released is there still a place for the Hugo, I also joined the ranks of those that found it a little dry in my system for my tastes, the QBD on the other hand was a richer sound, I have been talking to Rob for a long time now re the forthcoming QBD replacement so Rob if you are listening I waited and ended up organising two one for a friend. I did think its was going to be called the QBD168, but DAVE will do nicely.
  
 I wonder if Chord have any plans to offer a source of their own apart from the current CD transports?


----------



## bmichels

Quote:


isquirrel said:


> I wonder if Chord have any plans to offer a source of their own apart from the current CD transports?


 
  
 +1


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> I think most of us here have read Rob Watts say that he believes his DACs are the most transparent because they have the most accurate reproduction of the original analog waveform. They are most accurate in terms of reproducing transients and they are most accurate because they have the least noise floor modulation. Because of the lack of taps, most DAC chips can't produce transients like Chord or R2R ladder DACs. But the problems with R2R ladder DACs are the noise floor modulation (which can be minimized slightly with closed form upsampling as in Schiit Yggradasil) and the low-level linearity (which can be somewhat mitigated by having multiple ladder DACs to average things out and by summing two R2R DACs for high and low signals as in Metrum Pavane). But interestingly, Rob Watts rarely comments on what the noise floor modulation sounds like (or for that matter low-level linearity problems). Romaz talks about TotalDAC sounding slightly soft. I have to admit, when I listened to MSB DAC IV, I don't find it soft. But there are two things that jump out at me. First is that the timbre of some drums sound different on the MSB than my Chord's. And even my old Benchmark DAC1 produces the drum timbre to be closer to the Chord than to the MSB. The timbre of the instruments vary from instrument to instrument. Some are very close to each other from DAC to DAC but others are quite different. This is not exclusive to drums but also to some midrange and treble instruments. Which one is more accurate? If I were to believe Rob Watts, I'd say it's Chord. The next thing I noticed with the MSB was that let's say there is an instrument that's somewhat soft and has a rhythmic sound throughout the track. When the instrument first comes in, it is very clear with the Chord & MSB, but as other instruments come in, particularly louder ones, the clarity of that softer instrument becomes somewhat lost or at least the timbre of that instrument change slightly with the MSB but not with Chord DACs. Now for most simple music, like vocals or chamber music, this is hardly noticeable. But for symphonic works, it becomes slightly more obvious. Is this what higher noise floor modulation sounds like? I don't know. Of course, I don't know if it's the chicken or the egg. I picked Chord QBD76HDSD because I like the sound and then I like Rob Watts's explanation of why I like the sound. Or is it that because Chord DACs are the closest to the original analog waveform of the music that I like Chord DACs?
> 
> Ultimately, the challenge in my mind is that we do have different preferences to sound. In theory, we should want the most accurate reproduction for music so we would want headphones (or speakers) with a flat frequency response and no dynamic compression. But we all sometimes prefer headphones/speakers with carefully designed distortions. I wonder if the same is true for DACs. Except ironically, the distortions in most DACs are not by design, it is merely the limitation of the DAC technology used to produce the analog sound.


 
 Your comments are thoughtfully articulated and are interesting to ponder.  We're all inclined to our own preferences as far as presentation but I think as audiophiles, we each seek the same musical truth that we call "realism."  I'm not sure I fully understand what noise floor modulation sounds like either but I am in line with your thinking regarding tone and timbre and this is how I look at it.
  
 As I look at what a DAC is supposed to do, simplistically, it is designed to convert a digital signal into an analog one but what has always caught my attention more than any other parameters are the bit depth and sampling rate that each digital file is tagged with.  It's as if "16" and "44" are the two most important parameters a DAC needs to concern itself with when reproducing a Redbook file and as I try and make sense of what makes the DAVE special, I go back to these two fundamental parameters and what each represents in practical terms.
  
 Bit depth is an expression of dynamic range where the formula is 1 bit = 6 dB of DR and so a 16-bit Redbook file, as an example, equates to 16 x 6 = 96 dB of DR.  Similarly, a DAC that claims a 20 bit effective resolution should have a DR of 20x6 or 120 dB.  Looking at it another way, in audio, a component's DR is its maximum output signal minus its noise floor and as Rob has shared with us, the noise floor of the DAVE is very low, in the order of -180dBFS.  For a long time, I had assumed the first number, the maximum output signal was more important when in fact, it is the second number, the noise floor that is probably more difficult for a DAC to do a good job with.  The higher the DR, the better the dynamic contrasts which is fine, but the lower the noise floor, the better the low level detail, which as many will agree, is one of the parameters that separates a great DAC from a good DAC.  When the noise floor is constant, I can imagine the human mind has a way of compensating for it and even if the noise floor is fairly high, as long as it's constant, the human brain learns to adjust to it.  When the noise floor is not constant, or is modulating, I can imagine that the human brain will have more difficulty blocking it out.  A good analogy would be if we were flying in an airplane traveling at a constant velocity of 600 mph, we learn to adjust to it and eventually we don't realize we're even moving but if the plane is constantly speeding up and slowing down even slightly, we will probably notice it as turbulence.  If my understanding of this is correct, than elimination of noise floor modulation, which Rob has claimed to have accomplished with the DAVE, is at least as important as a low noise floor.  If you have the combination of a low and a non-modulating noise floor, I would expect that this would result in your best case scenario with regards to low level detail or "nuance."  I would surmise that this would result in a finer ability to discern not just the timbre of an instrument such as a violin but also the timbres of two instruments that have very similar timbres, such as an upper standup bass and the lower registers of a cello or an electric bass and electric guitar.  To a trained ear, you might be able to even discern between the tone of a Stradivarius and a Guarnerius.
  
 With regards to the second number, the sampling rate (for a CD, this equals 44KHz or 44,000 samples per second), this equates to time resolution which allows us to discern where in space and time a sound is coming from.  It's what gives us the dimensions of the soundstage, that the woodwinds are seated to the left of the brass section, that the percussion is behind the string section or that there are 4 rows within the string section.  Because female voices generally are at a higher frequency than male voices, usually female voices will reach our ears faster and with better localization than male voices.  Because certain sounds are faster than others, we get the sense not only of mass but force and impact.  The higher the sampling rate, the better the time resolution and it has been said that at a sampling rate of 192 KHz, a digital file is finally capable of equalling the continuos data stream of analog playback to where a human ear cannot tell the difference.  What impacts this, however, is jitter, and the more poorly timed digital playback is, the flatter and less dimensional it sounds and the less you can accurately discern where a sound is coming from and how fast it's coming.  In a simplistic sense, jitter is what makes a digital file sound digital and as much as noise floor and noise floor modulation, it leads to fatigue.
  
 Only Rob knows how he's addressed these parameters and while his claims were quite bold and even audacious when I first heard them, as I have listened to the DAVE and as I look at my understanding of the science of sound, it would appear to me that Rob is telling the truth.


----------



## Beolab

I wounder how many DAVEś they have sold in the end of 2016, this is going to be a world record in selling the most Ultra High End Dac's in one year i think! And Sadly Simon i think you have Sold the MSB Select II by then because you have found out you almost only listen to DAVE , because you will found out thet MSB are presenting the sound in a way that is not totally accurate when you have listen to the DAVE for a cople of 100 houers. 

This is my thaughts, but still have it because its a MastePeice by it self!!


----------



## romaz

izzard1982 said:


> Thanks for your detailed response, it makes me really wanting to buy a DAVE. DAVE's power supply intrigued me and everyone in HIFI knows that it's critical to have a clean power supply to get the best results from a component. Do you happen to know more details about DAVE's power supply? And if better power treatment improves its performance like most of other products do?


 
 The DAVE has an internal switching PSU.  This goes against the grain of what other high end DAC manufacturers are doing but then again, the DAVE is really a computer, it has no DAC chips or resistors and perhaps it has much higher power requirements that would make a LPSU or battery supply not feasible.  I am told quite a bit of filtration is built in to the DAVE to compensate for noise but I have never seen pictures of the schematics of the internals of the DAVE.  When I asked Rob about the importance of a good quality power cord and what he uses personally, this was his response:
  
"Maybe - I used to design mains cables, and they can make a difference to SQ - and its down to RF noise. Will Dave benefit from better mains cables? I have used Isotek mains cables, but have not done an AB listening test with them. Kept meaning to do it in Singapore... "
  
 I will say that at CES, he seemed to be using standard computer grade 18g power cables and it didn't seem to matter.  While the DAVE seems to have figured out how to deal with the higher ripple noise of its switching PSU, as we know, switching PSUs are notorious for backwashing noise into your system mains and affecting your other components.  When I asked him whether it would be a good idea to plug the DAVE into a line conditioner and whether a line conditioner might limit its dynamics, this was his response:
  
"Give RF filters a go. Dave has an incredible amount of RF filtering internally, but you may get a benefit for other gear with RF isolation. If it sounds smoother and darker its better is the rule here - this will also make dynamics seem quashed too, but that's just reducing noise floor modulation"
  
 I'm not sure I quite understood his last statement although I plan to test the DAVE with and without my passive Audience aR6 line conditioner.


----------



## romaz

isquirrel said:


> I still can't get my head around the notion that the source makes zero difference, it may do from a jitter perspective but if the if the info is not there I don't see how the DAVE or for that matter any DAC can re-invent it.
> 
> Hmm scratching head, just need to do the tests and follow the science and see what my ears tell me. Did I mention that I like it in Black??


 
 Simon, I don't think the DAVE is re-inventing or even interpolating anything.  Rob indicated that the starting file has to at least be bit-perfect.  What he has done, I believe, using his secret formula that is locked away in the same vault that contains the secret recipe for Coca Cola and Kentucky Fried Chicken as well as the U.K.'s nuclear codes, is he has figured out how to time re-align a signal that is jitterized.  And with his isolation methods, he has been able to strip away the impacts of RF and other signal polluting anomalies to a large degree.  It sounds very 007-like, I know, and only you English could ever think of something so diabolically clever.  Imagine what this will do to the industry.


----------



## Mavwong

Currently I am using Ansuz diamond power cord, Ansuz diamond usb cable, and isotek Sigma with Dave on speaker system. As I am using Dave feed direct to my Karan KAS600, main noise would destroy system ability to play at low volume. I would say isotek sigma is pretty good in isolating main noise from one equipment to another on the same main line.


----------



## romaz

mavwong said:


> Currently I am using Ansuz diamond power cord, Ansuz diamond usb cable, and isotek Sigma with Dave on speaker system. As I am using Dave feed direct to my Karan KAS600, main noise would destroy system ability to play at low volume. I would say isotek sigma is pretty good in isolating main noise from one equipment to another on the same main line.


 
 You are obviously using very high level power gear.  Have you had the chance to compare against lesser equipment to see if it makes a difference?  I have to believe it must.


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## Mavwong

Many times I was proven wrong that main power is just power, cable is just cable. Not going to start another war here. So I will give you a PM Romaz.
  
 Back to Dave, yes, with Dave even on stock cables while I burn it in, it souded very good already with the "Crazy HD600" lolz.


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## highendhifi

My dealer will be delivering my new speakers this week along with a DAVE for me to demo at home...


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> The DAVE has an internal switching PSU.  This goes against the grain of what other high end DAC manufacturers are doing but then again, the DAVE is really a computer, it has no DAC chips or resistors and perhaps it has much higher power requirements that would make a LPSU or battery supply not feasible.  I am told quite a bit of filtration is built in to the DAVE to compensate for noise but I have never seen pictures of the schematics of the internals of the DAVE.  When I asked Rob about the importance of a good quality power cord and what he uses personally, this was his response:
> 
> [COLOR=0000CD]"Maybe - I used to design mains cables, and they can make a difference to SQ - and its down to RF noise. Will Dave benefit from better mains cables? I have used Isotek mains cables, but have not done an AB listening test with them. Kept meaning to do it in Singapore... "[/COLOR]
> 
> ...




I will just go with a Isotek Polaris EVO3 main active filter power-line, that got individual power outlets blocked from each other, so RF noise cant go downstream from DAVE into the streamer or amp. 

Then i will use AQ NRG 1000 power cables with 72v DBS noise/screening active filter protection. 
This is the best option without any dynamic reducing i think.


----------



## Rob Watts

jawed said:


> If DAVE is like Hugo TT, then max output from DAVE will be >0dB, i.e. music recorded with 0dB peaks will clip.
> 
> TT has about +17dB maximum gain, so the input shouldn't exceed -17dB if you want to run TT at maximum volume. DAVE is probably similar.


 
 I have actually embedded an overload margin with Dave - that's why its 20 elements rather than 16 - so data over 0dB will be reproduced with very low distortion. So -3dB is 3v RMS, +3dB is 6v RMS and at this point it is perfectly linear. You need to go to +4dB when clipping will just be about to start. In practice, this means if the control is +4dB or less, Dave won't clip at all. This assumes loads of 33 ohms or easier.
  
 Rob


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## Mython

beolab said:


> I wonder how many DAVEś they have sold in the end of 2016, this is going to be a world record in selling the most Ultra High End Dac's in one year i think!


 
  
  
 I have noticed that a surprising number of people have registered as new members on head-fi, seemingly specifically to interact with Rob about Hugo/Mojo/DAVE.


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## lovethatsound

highendhifi said:


> My dealer will be delivering my new speakers this week along with a DAVE for me to demo at home...


Warning:you'll never want that DAVE to leave your HOME.


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## Hiyono

I just got mine!.  Burning it now.  I'll have to upload the opening video later since my Wifi device is very slow in Japan.


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## estreeter

hiyono said:


> I just got mine!.  Burning it now.  I'll have to upload the opening video later since my Wifi device is very slow in Japan.


 
  
 Just curious - is your wifi device any faster in Taiwan or Hong Kong ?


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## smial1966

Congratulations. That'a a very fine pairing you have there. Aural delights await you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Quote:


hiyono said:


> I just got mine!.  Burning it now.  I'll have to upload the opening video later since my Wifi device is very slow in Japan.


----------



## bmichels

With MQA that seems to take off, is it reasonable to buy a very TOL DAC that APPARENTLY do not have any MQA upgrade planed ? 

can the music server/streamer do ALL the MQA décoding ? I understood that for best MQA résults, the DAC also MUST be prepared for MQA ? 

But ... Our hobby is all but resonable anyway ! )


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## highendhifi

lovethatsound said:


> Warning:you'll never want that DAVE to leave your HOME.



Absolutely, lol-that's what my bank account is afraid of!


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## DaveRedRef-III

I see DCS, Aurender and Auralic have joined the growing list of backers for MQA. DCS in particular represents heavyweight backing for the protocol.
  
 I really hope Chord will back MQA and offer a software update for Dave to include MQA file handling.


----------



## ecwl

daveredref-iii said:


> I see DCS, Aurender and Auralic have joined the growing list of backers for MQA. DCS in particular represents heavyweight backing for the protocol.
> 
> I really hope Chord will back MQA and offer a software update for Dave to include MQA file handling.




Whereas I just hope whatever music software I use, e.g. JRiver, would support and convert MQA files to the original PCM files (24/192 or 32/384 or whatever they do) for playback. I'm not too keen to ship the Chord Dave back to the UK just for MQA upgrade...


----------



## Beolab

daveredref-iii said:


> I see DCS, Aurender and Auralic have joined the growing list of backers for MQA. DCS in particular represents heavyweight backing for the protocol.
> 
> I really hope Chord will back MQA and offer a software update for Dave to include MQA file handling.




The dave need a new EPROM chip so according to Rob you have to send it back to Chord for upgrade, but im not worried at all its going to take some time untill everything have established. 

Romaz said that he thaught that DAVE hade more air and dept btw the notes from a 16/44.1 file vs a MQA file from another DAC brand when he had listen at CES, so no worries guys!


----------



## lovethatsound

beolab said:


> The dave need a new EPROM chip so according to Rob you have to send it back to Chord for upgrade, but im not worried at all its going to take some time untill everything have established.
> 
> Romaz said that he thaught that DAVE hade more air and dept btw the notes from a 16/44.1 file vs a MQA file from another DAC brand when he had listen at CES, so no worries guys!


I've just been reading about MQA and it said you only need a software upgrade to use it to its full potential.It also said that you should still be able to play a MQA file on any dac without any update,it just won't be at MQA full sound potential.Maybe Rob could explain the pros and cons of this.And one more thing does a Dac like Dave really need MQA anyway?


----------



## Beolab

lovethatsound said:


> I've just been reading about MQA and it said you only need a software upgrade to use it to its full potential.It also said that you should still be able to play a MQA file on any dac without any update,it just won't be at MQA full sound potential.Maybe Rob could explain the pros and cons of this.And one more thing does a Dac like Dave really need MQA anyway?




The algorithm SW are written in the FPGA EPROM in the DAVE and its not possible to to upgrade for the end user by USB. 

The MQA are supporting all existing 192khz and 384khz DACś today, depending on where the conversation are dun.
If it converts and unpacked in an earlier stage in the MQA server or the MQA Ready streamer where it can be unpacked and converted into PCM 24/192 like BlueSound will most likely do then you can have almost any crapy DAC in the end, but if you would take 100% benefit of the full MQA+ SQ you need a dedicated MQA DAC , so CHORD / Rob have to do some hardware EPROM upgrades if this should be reality, then you have to send it to Chord later on.

I have heard a MQA sample at HiFi Klubben in Stockholm in a closed MQA demo through a BlueSound Node II streamer downscaled to 24/192khz connected to a NAD dac , and i was not so impressed, because it wasn't true MQA, and sounded more like an ordinary good 24/192 khz file.

So the conclusion is that you need a MQA Ready DAC to take full advantage of the SQ and not just the smart packaging.


----------



## romaz

Having spoken to MQA at CES last week, they told me MQA decoding can take place at either the server/streamer level or at the DAC.  You don't need both although there's no problem if you have both and there's no SQ advantage to having the decoder at one position or the other.  At the server/streamer level, depending on the hardware, a software update is all that you might need.  This will be the case with the likes of Auralic, Aurender and Lumin.  I have confirmed that with them.  For MQA decoding at the DAC level, as most DACs are not computers, most DACs will need to incorporate a hardware MQA decoder and apparently this is not a simple task.  Several DAC manufacturers I spoke with have no immediate plans to do this.  While the DAVE is technically a computer, when I asked Rob this question last month, he indicated MQA decoding will have to take place at the source and not within the DAVE.
  
 When I spoke with Auralic, their Aries and Aries Mini will have MQA decoding capability with their next firmware release due soon and they expect that none of the DACs they connect with will have problems.  When I spoke with Aurender, they are committed to MQA also but their rollout will take time (months) because in their words, they value a smooth user experience free of glitches and so while their hardware will do the decoding, they want to do extensive testing with various DACs to make sure there are no problems.  When I spoke with MQA about this, they confirmed that there is the potential for problems with certain DACs although the problem they suggest sounds quite minor.  The problem they foresee is that if an MQA file houses a 24/352 file, for example, and if the DAC is not capable of playing that file, you could have a glitch, possibly in the form of a lock up.  With MQA files, apparently there is no way to know the bit depth or sampling rate of the file stored within until after the file has been decoded.  With the DAVE, there should be no issues that I foresee as the DAVE, through USB, is capable of playing everything up to 4x DSD and 768 KHz sampling.


----------



## brightonjel

As far as I understand it, MQA is an umbrella label for two separate technologies which can operate independently or combined.
  
 (I) One feature is that hi-res files can be encoded ("folded" in Meridian's terms) and packaged into 44.1 or 48 kHz files. Without MQA decoding they will play "as -is", and Meridian said that there may be some improvement even then because they apply an appodizing filter.  If MQA decoding is available, the player will un-pack the file and play it in hi-res, up to either the source rate of the material or the max rate that the particular device will support. (See the following for a detailed explanation: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/beyond-high-resolution/)
  
 (II) The second aspect of MQA goes one step further.  Meridian has been working with studios to go back and calibrate the recording chain used on certain session of interest, in order to build a signature of how the master recordings were made.  This permits the replay DAC to "correct" for the recording process, and hence play-back something much closer to the original music being recorded.  I *think* that this requires a hardware decoder, but have no more info than that.  No idea how the marketing or labelling will work, but we'll doubtless see more as materials and players roll out. (See this overview from 2L: http://www.2l.no/pages/album/120.html)
  
 (I) being generic should be relatively easy to implement, and so anything that offers Tidal streaming, for example, would be the most obvious first candidates.  (II) though requires that the replay DAC, which is unique to each player, applies the necessary corrections in order to account for what was learned about distortions or specific characteristics of the recording chain.


----------



## ecwl

I have to say I find the MQA remastering of old recordings, particularly old digital recordings a little suspect. I don't know where their white paper is on the process so I'm speculating and maybe completely biased and wrong. But from the sounds of it, what they're doing is to take a digital 16/44 master, run it through a million taps to reconstruct a 24/352 master (so a super high-end upsampling you can call it), maybe do some EQ to compensate for other digital recording issues, and then compress that 24/352 back into 16/44 which is the encoding part of MQA. So if you have MQA playback, you're playing back the 24/352 which is easier to handle and sounds better for most DACs than the 16/44 version due to limited tap length.
  
 As for the compression part, I do think that's very clever. You take a 24/352 recording although most of the information is in the 24/44 portion and you dump the last 12 bits probably (I don't know the exact number) because it's too soft to carry much information so you have the top high level 12/44 which is what a regular CD player would end up playing and then you encode the remaining 44kHz-352kHz 24-bit information (which are probably so low signal that it'll already be contained in the bottom 8 bits) into the remaining low level 4 bits within the 44kHz and you add them up and get 16/44. What I do wonder is if you play an MQA 16/44 file on the Chord instead of a proper 16/44 CD file on the Chord DAVE, would the low-level signal that is part of the encode actually make the recording sound worse? I suspect probably because the whole point of having the DAVE or other Chord DACs is to resolve these low level signals. If Meridian is just going to replace the low level signals with encoded high frequency signals, I'm not sure if it'll actually improve the sound.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks for the feedback romaz. This points to MQA being primarily a simple recording/mastering file solution rather than requiring anything special in the conversion. Obviously a better mastering (with better timing) will sound better in the same way that any superior Red Book mastering will. However, MQA was born out of recognition for the timing inadequacies of digital conversion. MQA corrects blurring/timing errors in the studio AD conversion as I understand it and so it would be logical to assume the same problem is potentially there on the DAC end too. I can't help thinking that Meridian will already understand how best to covert such a file back into analogue, avoiding the same timing errors which have plagued digital conversion for 30 years. I suspect there will be a significant quality differential between differing Dacs handling MQA files in the same way Red Book sounds different through every DAC. MQA conversions will not be equal and Dac makers who actually address the protocol specifically will likely deliver something closer to the full potential of MQA (as envisaged, designed and currently demo'd by Meridian) imo. Hopefully Dave will do it justice. Given Robs design I think it has a better than average chance of being one of the better DACs for this new protocol.


----------



## Mython

Raise your hand, anyone who thinks this is, _by far,_ one of the most interesting threads, ever, on Head-fi?


----------



## romaz

brightonjel said:


> As far as I understand it, MQA is an umbrella label for two separate technologies which can operate independently or combined.
> 
> (I) One feature is that hi-res files can be encoded ("folded" in Meridian's terms) and packaged into 44.1 or 48 kHz files. Without MQA decoding they will play "as -is", and Meridian said that there may be some improvement even then because they apply an appodizing filter.  If MQA decoding is available, the player will un-pack the file and play it in hi-res, up to either the source rate of the material or the max rate that the particular device will support. (See the following for a detailed explanation: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/beyond-high-resolution/)
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, this is my understanding as well.  When I asked if an MQA file that contained a 24/192 track within would sound equivalent to a non-MQA file with an equivalent 24/192 bit-depth and sampling rate, I was told the MQA file should potentially sound better based on how they have been able to extract more information from certain recordings as you have described above.  However, as it was discussed with me, this "correction of the recording process" takes place at the decoder and not the DAC per se.  In other words, if the decoder is at the level of the external streamer, then the capabilities of the DAC doesn't matter as long as it is capable of playing the file's bit-depth and sampling rate.


----------



## bmichels

romaz said:


> MQA....With the DAVE, there should be no issues that I foresee as the DAVE, through USB, is capable of playing everything up to 4x DSD and 768 KHz sampling.


 
  
 This is very good news.  So we can go ahead and buy DAVE without any "future proof" issue ?  correct ?
  
 Alternatively, the Aurender A10 with Streamer + DAC, booth MQA compatible, is a safe solution, but... is the DAC inside the A10 at a satisfactory high end level ?


----------



## highfell

bmichels said:


> This is very good news.  So we can go ahead and buy DAVE without any "future proof" issue ?  correct ?
> 
> Alternatively, the Aurender A10 with Streamer + DAC, booth MQA compatible, is a safe solution, but... is the DAC inside the A10 at a satisfactory high end level ?




are you really prepared to buy another format of music , Ie one which has been "MQA'd" that you already have on Vinyl, CD, SACD, DSD, Hi Res etc. ?


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> I have to say I find the MQA remastering of old recordings, particularly old digital recordings a little suspect.


 
  
 Someone with more knowledge about MQA will need to step up and correct me but my understanding is that no upsampling takes place with MQA.  I have yet to buy into the benefits of upsampling personally and so if this is what's happening, I would agree with you. 
  
 I will say, however, that in the demo that I had the opportunity to take part in, a Mytek Brooklyn DAC was used that had a built-in MQA decoder that was defeatable, meaning I could toggle it on and off.  An MQA file was streamed in real time from Sweden via a simple Windows laptop running a beta version of Tidal with MQA capability and streaming occurred very smoothly.  I was told the file that was streamed was actually recorded in 24/352 using a recorder with that ability (no upsampling) and with this DAC connected to an LCD-X, the sound was impressively good with the decoder turned on and much less dimensional with the decoder turned off.  The effect was similar to what you would hear with the DAVE against other DACs although the effect was less pronounced.
  
 Is this something I would wish to have?  With other DACs, I think most would say absolutely, yes.  But with the DAVE, it seems that the DAVE can already accomplish this and more with standard 16/44 files and so you could make the argument that MQA is unnecessary.  The question I have is will MQA + DAVE lead to something altogether more extraordinary?  If so, then sign me up because I see no downside to the consumer here.


----------



## bmichels

highfell said:


> are you really prepared to buy another format of music , Ie one which has been "MQA'd" that you already have on Vinyl, CD, SACD, DSD, Hi Res etc. ?


 
  
 You are right, no one will want to purchase MQA versions of the thousands High-Res audio files that he get on his HD.
  
 For me MQA is of interest ONLY for streaming High-RES from TIDAL or other MQA streaming services.


----------



## highfell

bmichels said:


> You are right, no one will want to purchase MQA versions of the thousands High-Res audio files that he get on his HD.
> 
> For me MQA is of interest ONLY for streaming High-RES from TIDAL or other MQA streaming services.




OK that would work with me as well.

Stupid question ? - if you take the digital out of your iPhone playing a Tidal MQA streamed piece of music into any old DAC versus digital out of your iPhone for a non MQA Tidal streamed piece of music into the same DAC , would the former sound any better ?


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## Sonic77

Dave is in the house! Haven't set it up yet, although I listened to it at the hi-end audio store through $30k Magico speakers. Sounded fantastic!!


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## bmichels

> Originally Posted by *romaz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> I will say, however, that in the demo that I had the opportunity to take part in, a Mytek Manhattan DAC was used that had a built-in MQA decoder that was defeatable...


 
  
  
 was it really the Manhattan ? Not the new Brooklyn ?


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## Mython

sonic77 said:


> $30k Magico speakers.


 
  
  
 Yummy...


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## romaz

bmichels said:


> was it really the Manhattan ? Not the new Brooklyn ?


 
 Yes, you're right, it was the Brooklyn.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> Someone with more knowledge about MQA will need to step up and correct me but my understanding is that no upsampling takes place with MQA.  I have yet to buy into the benefits of upsampling personally and so if this is what's happening, I would agree with you.
> 
> I will say, however, that in the demo that I had the opportunity to take part in, a Mytek Brooklyn DAC was used that had a built-in MQA decoder that was defeatable, meaning I could toggle it on and off.  An MQA file was streamed in real time from Sweden via a simple Windows laptop running a beta version of Tidal with MQA capability and streaming occurred very smoothly.  I was told the file that was streamed was actually recorded in 24/352 using a recorder with that ability (no upsampling) and with this DAC connected to an LCD-X, the sound was impressively good with the decoder turned on and much less dimensional with the decoder turned off.  The effect was similar to what you would hear with the DAVE against other DACs although the effect was less pronounced.
> 
> Is this something I would wish to have?  With other DACs, I think most would say absolutely, yes.  But with the DAVE, it seems that the DAVE can already accomplish this and more with standard 16/44 files and so you could make the argument that MQA is unnecessary.  The question I have is will MQA + DAVE lead to something altogether more extraordinary?  If so, then sign me up because I see no downside to the consumer here.




It is like music to my ears when you describe the difference btw MQA and standard format recorded in 16/44.1 gives less diffrence to what DAVE does to an ordinary 16/44.1 file
against other DACś on the market
So if everyone had a DAVE there would not have bin any room for the MQA format almost 

(When you toggel the switch to off , in what format / resolution was it then played in? )


----------



## brightonjel

romaz said:


> Yes, this is my understanding as well.  When I asked if an MQA file that contained a 24/192 track within would sound equivalent to a non-MQA file with an equivalent 24/192 bit-depth and sampling rate, I was told the MQA file should potentially sound better based on how they have been able to extract more information from certain recordings as you have described above.  However, as it was discussed with me, this "correction of the recording process" takes place at the decoder and not the DAC per se.  In other words, if the decoder is at the level of the external streamer, then the capabilities of the DAC doesn't matter as long as it is capable of playing the file's bit-depth and sampling rate.


 

 Hmm, interesting.  From what I took away (from a Meridian-led session in Silicon Valley as part of rolling-out MQA) then in order to fully benefit from the "re-mastered" source, the replay chain needed to know not only the characteristics of the recording chain, but also of the decoding electronics (i.e. the DAC).  The idea is to get a close as possible to the original analogue waveform and MQA therefore needs to remove both recording non-linearities and decoding non-linearities.  That requires knowledge of both the recording chain and that on the decoding end, as both will have their own conversion signatures.  Anyway, doubtless more will become clear over the coming months, marketing notwithstanding!


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> (When you toggel the switch to off , in what format / resolution was it then played in? )


 
 Toggled off, it played at 16/44.  As you know, with the DAVE, 16/44 can sound very good.


----------



## romaz

brightonjel said:


> Hmm, interesting.  From what I took away (from a Meridian-led session in Silicon Valley as part of rolling-out MQA) then in order to fully benefit from the "re-mastered" source, the replay chain needed to know not only the characteristics of the recording chain, but also of the decoding electronics (i.e. the DAC).  The idea is to get a close as possible to the original analogue waveform and MQA therefore needs to remove both recording non-linearities and decoding non-linearities.  That requires knowledge of both the recording chain and that on the decoding end, as both will have their own conversion signatures.  Anyway, doubtless more will become clear over the coming months, marketing notwithstanding!


 
 It sounds like something has changed or else the truth lies somewhere in the middle but it's clear I was told by both Auralic and MQA that if the decoder resides in the music server or streamer, it will work with any DAC provided your DAC is capable of playback of the sampling rate of your file.  There is the possibility that there may be several operational levels - (1) basic functionality where you get standard playback and (2) optimized functionality where you get the SQ enhancements.


----------



## brightonjel

Yeah, this is where I think the marketing spiel gets in the way of us poor audio types trying to get our heads around things.  If the goal is to just "unwrap" MQA files, allowing hi-res content to be streamed in low-res size, then this is perfectly do-able by the streamer.  No problem.  However, if the end device wants to also leverage the additional meta data to the full (i.e. compensate for the foibles of the recording chain) then it needs to combine that fingerprint with the one exhibited by the replay DAC itself.  Now, having said that, it's perfectly possible as you say that there's a middle ground whereby the streamer can take into account any recording-chain meta-data in what it does at decode time, and rely on the final DAC being accurate enough to not further audibly degrade things.  Given we are talking about DAVE then perhaps that's a reasonable assumption, and so I look forward to hearing much more from those lucky enough to be able to try it; send the same data to a cell-phone DAC, however, and it may no longer be quite so appealing to cut-out the replay DAC.


----------



## romaz

From Bob Stuart himself:

Typical MQA file:

"The hierarchical download file that we end up with is typically 1x, which means it’s 44 or 48kHz and 24 bit. And that file, if it finds a decoder, unwraps perfectly." 

If an MQA decoder isn't found:

"If you don’t have a decoder, you can play it back without a decoder because it is PCM. MQA turns PCM into PCM. When you play it back, it’ll play back on a legacy system sounding better than a CD. And it sounds better than CD because the noise floor is properly managed and the signal has been pre-apodized.


So you get great sound on legacy players, and it means that you can take the single mechanical and put it in your car, you can put it in Sonos, you can put it in iTunes, you can put it on a phone, and get better-than-CD quality."


If an MQA decoder is present:


"But when it hits the decoder, the decoder will then give you the best that the DAC can produce. So if it’s in an iPhone, for example, that can’t go faster than 48k, it’ll authenticate it and manage the DAC as best it can. On an iPad, it will play back at 96k and give you a better rendering. If the DAC can do 192, 384 or 768 kHz, it will be programmed by the maker to produce the best sound." 


So basically, what Bob has said is that the typical MQA file will be backward compatible with any DAC that can play Redbook (16/44).  If an MQA decoder is not present, our systems will still play it and will sound better than CD quality through MQA's proprietary techniques that result in lower noise floor and less ringing.


If an MQA decoder is present in the system, the file will be properly unwrapped and based on the decoder's knowledge of the DAC's capabilities, it will render (yes, oversample) the file to the maximum capability of the DAC.  On an iPhone, that will be 48kHz, on an iPad, that will be 96kHz and on the DAVE, potentially, that will be 768 kHz.


What is the benefit of such oversampling?  


"In general, higher rates sound better because when you sample at a high rate, there’s less ringing in the file and the ringing is shorter." 


Generally, ringing (oscillation of the output signal) is introduced during the A/D and then the D/A process in the studio.  The characteristics of the A/D recorder that initiate this ringing are embedded into the file and made known to the MQA decoder which then makes the corrections.  So it would appear that with the DAVE, for optimized MQA playback, there has to be some mechanism for entering the DAVE's profile or abilities into the device that will perform the decoding (server, streamer, Roon, etc).


Here is the full excerpt of Bob's interview with Robert Harley:  http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/meridians-master-quality-authenticated-the-interview/


----------



## Sonic77

I listened to this Dave dac for a few hours and it is as good as everyone is saying. This is the best dac I have ever heard in my life, you have to hear it to believe it. I was skeptical about all the over the top reviews, but now I can say, believe them, this dac is special. I could tell right away this dac was different, the detail, the depth, the placement of instruments, was jaw dropping. I can't wait to hear some more tomorrow. I have Sennheiser HD 650 and listening to Dave with those was also mind blowing, I'm sure better headphones will yield even better sound. This is to other Dave dac owners, are you experiencing break in?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

sonic77 said:


> I listened to this Dave dac for a few hours and it is as good as everyone is saying. This is the best dac I have ever heard in my life, you have to hear it to believe it. I was skeptical about all the over the top reviews, but now I can say, believe them, this dac is special. I could tell right away this dac was different, the detail, the depth, the placement of instruments, was jaw dropping. I can't wait to hear some more tomorrow. I have Sennheiser HD 650 and listening to Dave with those was also mind blowing, I'm sure better headphones will yield even better sound. This is to other Dave dac owners, are you experiencing break in?




Good to hear you are enjoying listening to Dave, Sonic77. I found burn-in to be extraordinarily long at 250 hours. That's longer than any any other kit I have tested. Then again it is better than any other kit I have tested.


----------



## lovethatsound

sonic77 said:


> I listened to this Dave dac for a few hours and it is as good as everyone is saying. This is the best dac I have ever heard in my life, you have to hear it to believe it. I was skeptical about all the over the top reviews, but now I can say, believe them, this dac is special. I could tell right away this dac was different, the detail, the depth, the placement of instruments, was jaw dropping. I can't wait to hear some more tomorrow. I have Sennheiser HD 650 and listening to Dave with those was also mind blowing, I'm sure better headphones will yield even better sound. This is to other Dave dac owners, are you experiencing break in?


Glad your enjoying it(hearing is believing)More good news for you,it just keeps getting better the longer you run it . I've been running mine in for about 2 week's now and i think it's still burning in.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

The thing that I experience almost every time I sit down to listen to Dave is a sense of something truly special (musically) happening. Before I bought Dave I had probably experienced a truly spine tingling special audiophile moment just two or three times in the last dozen years. I have a friend coming over to listen in the next week and whereas normally I would have a favourite 10 or so tracks to play him comfortable in the knowledge that it would impress, with Dave I could easily choose 100 such tracks. Some of those I would choose may not be particularly well recorded. A special, almost indefinable quality is almost always present with Dave and makes you feel truly privileged.................but its not good for getting work done.


----------



## CallMeCynical

Completely agree with your comments, DaveRedRef, regarding impact to work/productivity! Weekends are definitely something to look forward to - although the wife doesn't share my enthusiasm for swapping house chores with extended listening sessions...I haven't listened to too much hi rez music content, but I say that DAVE makes Redbook cd sound hi-rez in the sense that the soundstage seems to get broader and very 3D. It's an incredible piece of kit. Coming back to your comments about Van Morrison sounding something special with Dave, I couldn't agree more. Those albums you referenced are examples of very well recorded music. Another album, if you're into Rock, is Raconteurs (Consolers of the lonely). This sounds incredible with DAVE. If I remember correctly, this album is considerd an audiophile reference cd such is the recording quality.


----------



## Sonic77

daveredref-iii said:


> Good to hear you are enjoying listening to Dave, Sonic77. I found burn-in to be extraordinarily long at 250 hours. That's longer than any any other kit I have tested. Then again it is better than any other kit I have tested.


 

  


lovethatsound said:


> Glad your enjoying it(hearing is believing)More good news for you,it just keeps getting better the longer you run it . I've been running mine in for about 2 week's now and i think it's still burning in.


 
 Well I guess I have more to look forward to 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






daveredref-iii said:


> The thing that I experience almost every time I sit down to listen to Dave is a sense of something truly special (musically) happening. Before I bought Dave I had probably experienced a truly spine tingling special audiophile moment just two or three times in the last dozen years. I have a friend coming over to listen in the next week and whereas normally I would have a favourite 10 or so tracks to play him comfortable in the knowledge that it would impress, with Dave I could easily choose 100 such tracks. Some of those I would choose may not be particularly well recorded. A special, almost indefinable quality is almost always present with Dave and makes you feel truly privileged.................but its not good for getting work done.


 
  


callmecynical said:


> Completely agree with your comments, DaveRedRef, regarding impact to work/productivity! Weekends are definitely something to look forward to - although the wife doesn't share my enthusiasm for swapping house chores with extended listening sessions...I haven't listened to too much hi rez music content, but I say that DAVE makes Redbook cd sound hi-rez in the sense that the soundstage seems to get broader and very 3D. It's an incredible piece of kit. Coming back to your comments about Van Morrison sounding something special with Dave, I couldn't agree more. Those albums you referenced are examples of very well recorded music. Another album, if you're into Rock, is Raconteurs (Consolers of the lonely). This sounds incredible with DAVE. If I remember correctly, this album is considerd an audiophile reference cd such is the recording quality.


 

 My first listening session was one that I didn't want to end.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

callmecynical said:


> Completely agree with your comments, DaveRedRef, regarding impact to work/productivity! Weekends are definitely something to look forward to - although the wife doesn't share my enthusiasm for swapping house chores with extended listening sessions...I haven't listened to too much hi rez music content, but I say that DAVE makes Redbook cd sound hi-rez in the sense that the soundstage seems to get broader and very 3D. It's an incredible piece of kit. Coming back to your comments about Van Morrison sounding something special with Dave, I couldn't agree more. Those albums you referenced are examples of very well recorded music. Another album, if you're into Rock, is Raconteurs (Consolers of the lonely). This sounds incredible with DAVE. If I remember correctly, this album is considerd an audiophile reference cd such is the recording quality.


 
  
 Thanks I will check it out.


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## Sonic77

I'm going to experiment by hooking up my Oppo 105 Blu Ray player thru toslink cable and watch a few music videos and snippits of movie videos thru the Dave Dac, I'll report back later what I heard.


----------



## Articnoise

romaz said:


> Someone with more knowledge about MQA will need to step up and correct me but my understanding is that no upsampling takes place with MQA.  I have yet to buy into the benefits of upsampling personally and so if this is what's happening, I would agree with you.
> 
> I will say, however, that in the demo that I had the opportunity to take part in, a Mytek Brooklyn DAC was used that had a built-in MQA decoder that was defeatable, meaning I could toggle it on and off.  An MQA file was streamed in real time from Sweden via a simple Windows laptop running a beta version of Tidal with MQA capability and streaming occurred very smoothly.  I was told the file that was streamed was actually recorded in 24/352 using a recorder with that ability (no upsampling) and with this DAC connected to an LCD-X, the sound was impressively good with the decoder turned on and much less dimensional with the decoder turned off.  The effect was similar to what you would hear with the DAVE against other DACs although the effect was less pronounced.
> 
> Is this something I would wish to have?  With other DACs, I think most would say absolutely, yes.  But with the DAVE, it seems that the DAVE can already accomplish this and more with standard 16/44 files and so you could make the argument that MQA is unnecessary.  The question I have is will MQA + DAVE lead to something altogether more extraordinary?  If so, then sign me up because I see no downside to the consumer here.


 
  

 I don’t find it strange if a song that was recorded in 24/352 sound better native than a severely down sampled one, MQA or not. 

  

 With all software and DACs I have tried I have always liked native sample rate better than up and down sampled ones btw.


----------



## romaz

sonic77 said:


> I'm going to experiment by hooking up my Oppo 105 Blu Ray player thru toslink cable and watch a few music videos and snippits of movie videos thru the Dave Dac, I'll report back later what I heard.


 
 Consider connecting a device like this from your Oppo to your DAVE if you have a large SACD collection.  You will need to connect one of your Oppo's HDMI outputs to this device and then use your Toslink cable from this device to the DAVE.  What it does is it allows you to play your SACDs through your DAVE at high resolution.  
  

  
 You can buy it on Ebay for about $20.  
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/311307384782?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## izzard1982

Just placed an order on a silver DAVE, feel nervous, the most expensive piece of audio equipment I have ever bought.


----------



## Jawed

Bob Stuart is very critical on the subject of ringing (pre- and post-transient), especially pre-ringing and has set out with MQA to eliminate it. As far as I can tell Chord's current DACs have symmetrical ringing and it would seem have the most ringing of any DAC out there. Yet there's a concensus that Chord DACs have the best transients.

I detect some kind of contradiction...


----------



## Sonic77

romaz said:


> Consider connecting a device like this from your Oppo to your DAVE if you have a large SACD collection.  You will need to connect one of your Oppo's HDMI outputs to this device and then use your Toslink cable from this device to the DAVE.  What it does is it allows you to play your SACDs through your DAVE at high resolution.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 OOOOOOOH! Ok, I'll try that, thanks!
 I just ordered one.


----------



## romaz

jawed said:


> Bob Stuart is very critical on the subject of ringing (pre- and post-transient), especially pre-ringing and has set out with MQA to eliminate it. As far as I can tell Chord's current DACs have symmetrical ringing and it would seem have the most ringing of any DAC out there. Yet there's a concensus that Chord DACs have the best transients.
> 
> I detect some kind of contradiction...


 
 Interesting.  It's still hard to decipher whether MQA and DAVE are a good fit.


----------



## Mython

romaz said:


> sonic77 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to experiment by hooking up my Oppo 105 Blu Ray player thru toslink cable and watch a few music videos and snippits of movie videos thru the Dave Dac, I'll report back later what I heard.
> ...


 
  
  
 Does that output _*bit-perfect*_ audio data, with *no conversions* occurring behind the scenes..?


----------



## romaz

sonic77 said:


> OOOOOOOH! Ok, I'll try that, thanks!
> I just ordered one.


 
 You'll notice on the photo that it requires 9V power and the device will come with the necessary wall wart but the Oppo's HDMI output seems to power it by itself so when you get yours, don't bother plugging it into the wall.  Really quite novel.


----------



## romaz

mython said:


> Does that output _*bit-perfect*_ audio data, with *no conversions* occurring behind the scenes..?


 
 Yes, give it a try.  What this does is it allows you to bypass encryption.  As you know, through any other output except HDMI, you won't be able to pass an SACD signal at full resolution because of encryption.  If you have a hybrid SACD, for example, all that will pass through will be 16/44.  
  
 Now another neat trick, using this little device and the Tascam DA-3000, you can now record your SACDs onto an SD card at full resolution and transfer them to your music server.  A novel way of ripping your SACDs.  This Tascam unit only makes sense if you have a large SACD collection because it runs about $1,000.


----------



## Sonic77

izzard1982 said:


> Just placed an order on a silver DAVE, feel nervous, the most expensive piece of audio equipment I have ever bought.


 

 Same here, don't sweat it, it will sound soo good, you'll see.


----------



## izzard1982

sonic77 said:


> Same here, don't sweat it, it will sound soo good, you'll see.


 
 Thanks, I'm sure it will sound great, it will be interesting to see how it compares to Yggy which I'm currently using.


----------



## Sonic77

izzard1982 said:


> Thanks, I'm sure it will sound great, it will be interesting to see how it compares to Yggy which I'm currently using.





I've heard both and in my opinion Yggy loses badly.


----------



## izzard1982

sonic77 said:


> I've heard both and in my opinion Yggy loses badly.


 
 I have been using Yggy since last September and trying all kinds of things to let it perform at its best, it's only recently I have felt that I have reached its potential and it sounds pretty great for a 2k DAC. Overall, I think it sounds a lot better than Hugo which I owned before. Will see how DAVE compares to it as lack of sound stage depth on headphone is one thing I feel lacking right now.


----------



## Sonic77

izzard1982 said:


> I have been using Yggy since last September and trying all kinds of things to let it perform at its best, it's only recently I have felt that I have reached its potential and it sounds pretty great for a 2k DAC. Overall, I think it sounds a lot better than Hugo which I owned before. Will see how DAVE compares to it as lack of sound stage depth on headphone is one thing I feel lacking right now.


Why did it take so long? Dave is great right out da box.


----------



## Kamil21

jawed said:


> Bob Stuart is very critical on the subject of ringing (pre- and post-transient), especially pre-ringing and has set out with MQA to eliminate it. As far as I can tell Chord's current DACs have symmetrical ringing and it would seem have the most ringing of any DAC out there. Yet there's a concensus that Chord DACs have the best transients.
> 
> I detect some kind of contradiction...




I believe both are after the same thing. 

Ringing is the effect caused by the filter. No filter, as in NOS dacs mean no ringing.. But not having a filter created other problems. It's just that both approach the solution differently.... And then there are many other more techniques which both Bobs use beyond just that. Maybe Mr. Watts can explain.

In the end, I believe both are after the same thing.. 'The closest possible approximation to the original sound'. And for now, in my books Chord Dave will work for my entire music collection without the need for encoding.


----------



## izzard1982

sonic77 said:


> Why did it take so long? Dave is great right out da box.


 
 That's part of the reason I got DAVE which seems not requiring those partnering components to sound its best.
  
 About Yggy, I tried one component at a time and a lot of different combinations so it took so long to finally find the best, but at this point I'm tired of doing all these and thinking a lot of these things are actually not necessary and should be handled very well by a well designed DAC, and DAVE seems the first high end DAC that can do this.


----------



## Mavwong

I am not surprise that Shiit stuff need lots of tweaks to sound better  I am sure with Dave, you will be much happier man.
  
 Quote:


izzard1982 said:


> That's part of the reason I got DAVE which seems not requiring those partnering components to sound its best.
> 
> About Yggy, I tried one component at a time and a lot of different combinations so it took so long to finally find the best, but at this point I'm tired of doing all these and thinking a lot of these things are actually not necessary and should be handled very well by a well designed DAC, and DAVE seems the first high end DAC that can do this.


----------



## rkt31

a transparent, accurate and neutral device should not need any tweaking by other components. if yggy needs any specific kind of gear ( warm or cold sounding) it means it is not accurate and is colored !


----------



## TheAttorney

By the end of this month, I'll be doing my own comparison of DAVE vs my Yggy (and a CAD).
 At 4 times the price, the DAVE (or CAD) damn well better be better. But if they _are_ substantially better, it will make for an interesting decision point.
  
 Apart from the SQ, I like certain aspects of the DAVE's design:
  

It's a very small, single box
You can get it in black
Integrated headphone and preamp section (and it's still very small)
Low power consumption and a standby option for even lower power consumption - anyone tried this yet? Is there  a warm up time required after using it? 
Cross-feed options for the headphone output - anyone used this yet?
  
 The CAD is not really a contender because its deliberately minimal design (USB-only input, SE-only output) is too minimal for me, but it's got a great SQ reputation and is close to DAVE in price, and my local dealer has them both, so I may as well try it.


----------



## izzard1982

rkt31 said:


> a transparent, accurate and neutral device should not need any tweaking by other components. if yggy needs any specific kind of gear ( warm or cold sounding) it means it is not accurate and is colored !


 
 Sorry if I was not very clear, the tweaking I was talking about was not about finding a warm or cold sounding device to pair with Yggy, it was about trying to feed Yggy with best quality signal possible with which Yggy was very sensitive (it's also very sensitive to power quality, so power treatment device and power cord are also very important, despite what Schiit says on their website). I'm sure if I just went with dedicated player/streamer like Aurender, it would take less time but that would mean I would sacrifice convenience compare to using only my laptop which I really don't want to do, and based on all the feedback so far, it seems DAVE doesn't have all these, at least at a much lesser extent, this intrigued me a lot and can't wait to try it in my system. I will do some comparisons on SQ when feeding DAVE with different devices after I got it and report back my findings.


----------



## lovethatsound

theattorney said:


> By the end of this month, I'll be doing my own comparison of DAVE vs my Yggy (and a CAD).
> At 4 times the price, the DAVE (or CAD) damn well better be better. But if they _are_ substantially better, it will make for an interesting decision point.
> 
> Apart from the SQ, I like certain aspects of the DAVE's design:
> ...


I leave my Dave in standby when not in use,it sound's fantastic as soon as you wake it up.


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## Sonic77

The headphone out on the Dave is really excellent, you wouldn't have to buy a headphone amp with Dave, saving money, if you are into headphones too. I listen almost exclusively to speakers.
 When I do listen to headphones it's using the Mojo & ipod touch.


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## lovethatsound

Just been listening too Otis Taylor(Below The Fold) sounds so amazing on the Dave.


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## jarnopp

shini44 said:


> thanks for the info ^^ i will search for some external amp and read more, for the HE6 alone.




Hi @Shini44,

I am really enjoying the Liquid Carbon with the HE-6 out of the Mojo with line out(3v) setting. You can always try that with your LC. 

Enjoy!


----------



## Shini44

jarnopp said:


> Hi @Shini44,
> 
> I am really enjoying the Liquid Carbon with the HE-6 out of the Mojo with line out(3v) setting. You can always try that with your LC.
> 
> Enjoy!


 
 my LC now is burning in, so i didn't try its full potential yet. 
  
 I am a Treble/Bass head, and i "assume" that the LC with Hugo TT line out mode + LC on gain x3 , will not be enough to power the HE-6 to a level that will make me dance  

 also the quality will differ, the reviews state that to bring the transparency and real HE-6 massive power are required.
  
  
 yes for you maybe you are enjoying the current power  not sure
  
 try to describe the HE-6 bass power / Treble extension,quantity and transparency for me, so i get the big image


----------



## highendhifi

So had the DAVE for a couple of hours and I can't really make any snap judgments unfortunately as my new MB2se's and Atlas Mavros speaker cable were cold and not burned/run in (trying to put some hours on them still) and the connection was via adapter so not the ideal BNC which my Bryston bcd-1 lacks and it ran in PCM plus mode. Not a night and day jaw dropper in that short and frustratingly uncontrolled demo but still more musical and natural, and with greater detail with a calmness that wasn't really detectable at the time but is now missed. What was a jaw dropper was applying the HF filter to Elle Kings album, a harsh and brittle sound. The HF filter calmed the whole thing down and made it a totally different and nicer listening experience. Amazing. 
I don't know how many hours this unit had, I was recovering from the size of the MB2se's...


----------



## highendhifi

The Dave:


----------



## Beolab

highendhifi said:


> The Dave:




Seems to be a very solid "Alu bench" you have placed the DAVE on, is it a Isotek power plant or ?


----------



## Rob Watts

highendhifi said:


> So had the DAVE for a couple of hours and I can't really make any snap judgments unfortunately as my new MB2se's and Atlas Mavros speaker cable were cold and not burned/run in (trying to put some hours on them still) and the connection was via adapter so not the ideal BNC which my Bryston bcd-1 lacks and it ran in PCM plus mode. Not a night and day jaw dropper in that short and frustratingly uncontrolled demo but still more musical and natural, and with greater detail with a calmness that wasn't really detectable at the time but is now missed. What was a jaw dropper was applying the HF filter to Elle Kings album, a harsh and brittle sound. The HF filter calmed the whole thing down and made it a totally different and nicer listening experience. Amazing.
> I don't know how many hours this unit had, I was recovering from the size of the MB2se's...


 
 Was the Elle Kings a 44.1 kHz recording?
  
 Rob


----------



## highendhifi

The unit under the Dave is an Isotek Sigmas Evo II


----------



## highendhifi

rob watts said:


> Was the Elle Kings a 44.1 kHz recording?
> 
> Rob



Yes, 44.1, normal CD. The effect of the HF filter was obvious to all listening. The hash and brittleness was immediately gone.


----------



## highendhifi




----------



## izzard1982

highendhifi said:


> So had the DAVE for a couple of hours and I can't really make any snap judgments unfortunately as my new MB2se's and Atlas Mavros speaker cable were cold and not burned/run in (trying to put some hours on them still) and the connection was via adapter so not the ideal BNC which my Bryston bcd-1 lacks and it ran in PCM plus mode. Not a night and day jaw dropper in that short and frustratingly uncontrolled demo but still more musical and natural, and with greater detail with a calmness that wasn't really detectable at the time but is now missed. What was a jaw dropper was applying the HF filter to Elle Kings album, a harsh and brittle sound. The HF filter calmed the whole thing down and made it a totally different and nicer listening experience. Amazing.
> I don't know how many hours this unit had, I was recovering from the size of the MB2se's...


 
 what DAC did you use before DAVE?


----------



## highendhifi

I tried an arcam rdac and olive 4HD to play files but I can't really take to files and CD replay is my main source with 20 years worth of discs.... So I use my Bryston BCD-1 CD player. I have a McIntosh MCD550 as well but the Bryston, despite being a third of the cost, takes it apart.


----------



## highendhifi

What I found interesting is that the HF filter had such a marked effect on the spectrum. I understand one of its functions is to assist in making SACD's a little less hissy or brash but this was just in a redbook CD. 
My dilemma now is whether to stay with my CD players and use them as transports with the DAVE or whether to invest a Red Ref III and perhaps have a little less on the number crunching side?


----------



## Beolab

highendhifi said:


> What I found interesting is that the HF filter had such a marked effect on the spectrum. I understand one of its functions is to assist in making SACD's a little less hissy or brash but this was just in a redbook CD.
> My dilemma now is whether to stay with my CD players and use them as transports with the DAVE or whether to invest a Red Ref III and perhaps have a little less on the number crunching side?




DAVE should be better than the Red Ref III with a QBD76 HDSD inside , but it looks and feel nicer to have in your rig ! 

But DAVE should run it over with ease after a couple of burn in hours!  

You should burn it in like 200 hours and then make a decision, its my best tip!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

No question Dave is a step-up from the Red Ref III. Greater focus and purity for a start.


----------



## ecwl

highendhifi said:


> I tried an arcam rdac and olive 4HD to play files but I can't really take to files and CD replay is my main source with 20 years worth of discs.... So I use my Bryston BCD-1 CD player. I have a McIntosh MCD550 as well but the Bryston, despite being a third of the cost, takes it apart.


 

 So I think Bryston BCD-1 is a great CD player, particularly for its price. And the ideal Bryston to Chord DAVE connection is probably Toslink but BNC should work reasonably great. My take on the situation is you have two new components, Chord DAVE & PMC MB2se. Perhaps you need to listen to the Bryston BCD-1 on the PMC MB2se for a bit first to get used to the new sound and then listen via the Chord DAVE for a while to get a much better feel of the improvement (or lack of improvement from the Chord DAVE). The other thing I've found in the past with my QBD76HDSD is that even with a fairly decent preamplifier, the preamplifier is not totally transparent to the DAC so it is possible the preamplifier is limiting the performance of the system.


----------



## highendhifi

Sadly the DAVE has already gone back to the dealer. I'll have to ask them how many hrs it had under its belt
The Bryston is a great player, really underrated like my old Audionet ART: it's nice to hear agreement on that, ecwl. 
The Mb2se's I now realise were way too cold and green to listen to straight out of the box like that and yep, too many variables going on. Power is by Bryston, a 14B, but I also wonder if the BP26 with MPS pre-amp is holding things back a bit. I should have asked to run the DAVE straight to the power....


----------



## ecwl

highendhifi said:


> Sadly the DAVE has already gone back to the dealer. I'll have to ask them how many hrs it had under its belt
> The Bryston is a great player, really underrated like my old Audionet ART: it's nice to hear agreement on that, ecwl.
> The Mb2se's I now realise were way too cold and green to listen to straight out of the box like that and yep, too many variables going on. Power is by Bryston, a 14B, but I also wonder if the BP26 with MPS pre-amp is holding things back a bit. I should have asked to run the DAVE straight to the power....


 

 Yeah, so I think the problem is not that the Bryston BP26 is holding things back. It is a phenomenal preamplifier. I think the problem is that modern high-end DACs are so transparent nowadays that it is very, very, very difficult to make a preamplifier that is transparent to the DAC. If you go to Ultra Audio website and you can read a very positive review of Simaudio 850P preamplifier. But a reader challenged the reviewer and the reviewer acknowledged that given a choice, he would go straight from DAC to the power amplifier as long as the DAC has good analog or digital volume control. But if you need a preamp, you need a preamp... The thing I wonder about actually is if you can do digital volume control with your BCD-1, would it sound better bypassing the BP26. This was certainly what I discovered with my Chord QBD76HDSD. Btw, I don't have Chord DAVE  yet but if you're going to remove the preamplifier, if you have high-end audiophile power cables into the preamplifier power supply (or into BCD-1), you should probably use that high-end power cable for the Chord DAVE. I know Rob Watts thinks Chord DAVE probably doesn't need super high-end power cables. I certainly find a good power cable makes a big difference for my QBD76HDSD when I use it to directly drive the power amplifier.


----------



## Beolab

ecwl said:


> Yeah, so I think the problem is not that the Bryston BP26 is holding things back. It is a phenomenal preamplifier. I think the problem is that modern high-end DACs are so transparent nowadays that it is very, very, very difficult to make a preamplifier that is transparent to the DAC. If you go to Ultra Audio website and you can read a very positive review of Simaudio 850P preamplifier. But a reader challenged the reviewer and the reviewer acknowledged that given a choice, he would go straight from DAC to the power amplifier as long as the DAC has good analog or digital volume control. But if you need a preamp, you need a preamp... The thing I wonder about actually is if you can do digital volume control with your BCD-1, would it sound better bypassing the BP26. This was certainly what I discovered with my Chord QBD76HDSD. Btw, I don't have Chord DAVE  yet but if you're going to remove the preamplifier, if you have high-end audiophile power cables into the preamplifier power supply (or into BCD-1), you should probably use that high-end power cable for the Chord DAVE. I know Rob Watts thinks Chord DAVE probably doesn't need super high-end power cables. I certainly find a good power cable makes a big difference for my QBD76HDSD when I use it to directly drive the power amplifier.




1+ for just go pass through the pre-amp! Pre-Amps in my book is a filter, and can not improve the sound, just make it different mybe. 

I dont agree with you on high end power cables for the QBD76HDSD , ive tyed almost every Isotek / AudioQuest / NordOst from the top shelf , and it was impossible to tell any diffrence! 

( I know that we have very stable power here in Sweden, and i very rarly change any light bowls or anything like it)

But the QBD76 and DAVE are using medical switching power transformers so its hard to make any improvments on a switching power transformer circuit if you know how it works. Why don't you think the Hospitals / medical industry are buying and using NordOst ODIN II to all of their EKG:s , X-Rays, dialysis devices if they improved the accuracy or stability? They got the money for certain when the buy new equipment for many million dollars for just one hospital. 
They have special power filters yes and thick cables for driving a magnetic X-ray for example, but its not costing $$$$$ for a single cable. 

It is the HighEnd users that have swallowed the high price tags with 95% margin on cables, because im a reseller of AudioQuest , and i know the margin i have up on a AQ cable for example, and it is 75 % ! 

Just selling nonsense, i wonder when someone should wake up? 

On a linear power transformer it may be improvments if you go from a underrated thin cable to a more appropriated one with the right area thickness, but i don't beleve in this propaganda! 

If you want improvments for your power amps you should change the thin standard 1,5 square cm2 cable to a 2,5 square cm2 in the wall and let it go direct from your fuse box in the house direct to your power amp. 

But for a DAC? You cant even measure any difference if it got the same thickness and lining , not even with the worlds best measuring devices can see any difference. 

This is just nonsens, but they look good, feel more rigid and your inner soul can calm down if you have your Ultra High End cable Odin II inserted to a AC outlet with old 50 meters of dryed wires from world war II in your appartment, but if you just buy a 1 meter $1000 cable from the retired vaccum cleaning salesman its going to be fine great sound?

Come on people , you are educated in all sorts of ares but not in to electrics maybe, but this make no sens and it is nonsens!

You don't need to buy a 1 cent cable, but my motto is that if the maker supply a power cable to your amp i think its not going to be a weak underrated and illegal one, it is following and meet all the regulations and classifications , so spend your money on something else instead is my tip of the week


----------



## ecwl

beolab said:


> 1+ for just go pass through the pre-amp! Pre-Amps in my book is a filter, and can not improve the sound, just make it different mybe.
> 
> I dont agree with you on high end power cables for the QBD76HDSD , ive tyed almost every Isotek / AudioQuest / NordOst from the top shelf , and it was impossible to tell any diffrence!
> 
> ...


 
 I'd rather not descend into a "whether power cables make a difference" debate. I completely agree that it makes no sense that power cables make a difference (although Rob Watts did say he used to think it might sometimes because of RF noise). But similarly, it makes no sense that Chord DACs sound better than my iPhone internal DAC that already has at least 90dB dynamic range or Sabre DACs which already have excellent specifications. But what I heard is what I heard. Whether it's because of lots of RF noise in my apartment or as Beolab suspects, maybe just pure placebo effect from the fancy look of the cables I don't know. All I can say was that I had a Nordost Frey 2 hooked up to my Sanders Preamplifier with a Nordost Heimdall 2 hooked to the Chord QBD76HDSD and both were connected to a Torus BM-5 isolation transfomer. I agree with Beolab, I really couldn't tell much of a difference if I were to switch out the Nordost Heimdall 2 and put in say a cheaper Shunyata Venom 3 in that setup. However, when I decided to remove the Sanders preamplifier the first time, I just left the Heimdall 2 hooked up to the Chord QBD76HDSD and while there was a lower noise floor, all the transients were just slightly less dynamic and the music seemed anemic. But when I realized the DAC is now driving the amp and not the preamp, I hook the Frey 2 to the QBD76HDSD and the life of the music came back. I got the lower noise floor and the dynamic transients that I was used to hearing when the system used to go through the Sanders preamplifier. I don't know why I heard what I heard. That's why I am not recommending highendhifi to go out and buy some super expensive power cable. What I'm saying is that if he uses a better power cable for the Bryston BP26/MPS than the BCD1, he should use the better power cable for the Chord DAVE when he bypasses the BP26. It'll cost him nothing but it's an insurance to make sure he can get the best out of the next Chord DAVE demo, in case the power cable matters.


----------



## Beolab

ecwl said:


> I'd rather not descend into a "whether power cables make a difference" debate. I completely agree that it makes no sense that power cables make a difference (although Rob Watts did say he used to think it might sometimes because of RF noise). But similarly, it makes no sense that Chord DACs sound better than my iPhone internal DAC that already has at least 90dB dynamic range or Sabre DACs which already have excellent specifications. But what I heard is what I heard. Whether it's because of lots of RF noise in my apartment or as Beolab suspects, maybe just pure placebo effect from the fancy look of the cables I don't know. All I can say was that I had a Nordost Frey 2 hooked up to my Sanders Preamplifier with a Nordost Heimdall 2 hooked to the Chord QBD76HDSD and both were connected to a Torus BM-5 isolation transfomer. I agree with Beolab, I really couldn't tell much of a difference if I were to switch out the Nordost Heimdall 2 and put in say a cheaper Shunyata Venom 3 in that setup. However, when I decided to remove the Sanders preamplifier the first time, I just left the Heimdall 2 hooked up to the Chord QBD76HDSD and while there was a lower noise floor, all the transients were just slightly less dynamic and the music seemed anemic. But when I realized the DAC is now driving the amp and not the preamp, I hook the Frey 2 to the QBD76HDSD and the life of the music came back. I got the lower noise floor and the dynamic transients that I was used to hearing when the system used to go through the Sanders preamplifier. I don't know why I heard what I heard. That's why I am not recommending highendhifi to go out and buy some super expensive power cable. What I'm saying is that if he uses a better power cable for the Bryston BP26/MPS than the BCD1, he should use the better power cable for the Chord DAVE when he bypasses the BP26. It'll cost him nothing but it's an insurance to make sure he can get the best out of the next Chord DAVE demo, in case the power cable matters.




1+ regards for your down to earth humble answer! 
Mostly it is placebo and your mind play you some tricks all the time including to me and it is sometimes hard to distinguish what is real or what is placebo. 

Me and a friend of my was attending in a very interesting study-group a couple of years ago about the human hearing and how we can distinguish and separate sounds from memory. 
Placebo was a key factor and was one session in the study: 
The listening-tests where out formed by a professor in electro physics from The Royal Technical University ( KTH ) here in Stockholm. 

We where 30 people attending as testing jury. 

The professor played one song 3 min long and we did not know what we should listen for if it was any in specific, so we just listen and tried to remember all parts and nuances , the dynamics from cymbals, dept from the vocal singer and all the rest. 

Then after the first listening he went out in the back where all the testing devices where placed and i like among of the rest of the group thought he disconnected something, and then he was back as fast as he had left the room. 

Now everyone thought whats going to happen next? 

Just listen again he said and take notes in your paper what differences you could hear! 

So he played the same song again on the same volume after 10 min so the ears had not adapted to the sound and had get any fatigue. 

Now i sat and thought i was hearing the sound a little more fluid this time, but the rest of the group wrote like the pencils where on fire! 

And everyone around incl. my friend told be did you here the great improvement of the overall sound, it was much more control and a ease of effortless to the sound this time! 

The professor did similar tests the hole session, but with a small differences in the sound. 

In the end; the result he showed us after collecting all notepapers from the test jury group, he notices we all had wrote down that the first listening to the second that we all had heard a grate overall improvement! 

The professor stood just there and i thought i could see a little smile on his dry lips , and he told us that he haven't done anything with the sound in the first session, just try to trick us when he disconnected something back in the test lab, so we where listen to the exact same song, but the human brain hear and focus on different things each time you here a song the second time.

So if you switch the power cable next time to a "High End equivalent one, and then play the same song one more time, you are going to hear different things in the song, because of you brains focusing on different parts, not caused by the power cable.


----------



## lovethatsound

Yes cables are a mine field,but i can say this,when i use my hd800 with Dave,I've got a choice of 2 cables,the stock cable and a cardas clear cable,now you could blind fold me and i could tell you which cable was being use a 100% every time.


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## DaveRedRef-III

The first thing about testing is that the listeners need to be familiar with the acoustics of the room, also the hifi setup and also familiar with the recordings used. The only way this can be done properly is in your own room with your own electrics, setup and music. I had a new property where the electrics were clean and conditioners added nothing. Now I have a 300 y/o property and the story has changed. The the differences are small but in my experience they are very real. I don't doubt that some people fall for the placebo affect but others are not so succeptable. I have found on a number of occasions, expensive interconnects and power chords that have disappointed me immensely. It is the complete opposite of placebo when you are expecting better and it is in fact worse. I think also that some people may listen more for a sound change when dynamics and RFI is often the main difference. As I say, the differences are small and I respect someone who is big enough to say they can't hear a difference. That respect should work both ways though and I hope it does on this forum.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

It's remarkable what the human ear can discern when provided with a familiar environment and equipment. I remember reading an article about a new top of the range mixing desk being delivered to a studio where Geoff Emmerik worked. Evidently after running a mix through it, Geof was convinced one channel was faulty. However, nobody else in the studio could hear what he was hearing. So they called the manufacturer out and they put testing equipment on the channel but this only confirmed the channel was fine. Geoff stood his ground and said it was faulty and because of his standing, this top of the profession manufacturer backed down and replaced it. Weeks later they came back and said he was right all along but the errant frequency was in the realms of bats hearing. How could Geoff hear that? It was impossible. The difference is that as an engineer he listens to how the sound reacts with other sounds. Harmonies and harmonics. Different people listen in different ways. 

GE was already a legend before this incident but I am sure it didn't harm his reputation.


----------



## Beolab

daveredref-iii said:


> It's remarkable what the human ear can discern when provided with a familiar environment and equipment. I remember reading an article about a new top of the range mixing desk being delivered to a studio where Geoff Emmerik worked. Evidently after running a mix through it, Geof was convinced one channel was faulty. However, nobody else in the studio could hear what he was hearing. So they called the manufacturer out and they put testing equipment on the channel but this only confirmed the channel was fine. Geoff stood his ground and said it was faulty and because of his standing, this top of the profession manufacturer backed down and replaced it. Weeks later they came back and said he was right all along but the errant frequency was in the realms of bats hearing. How could Geoff hear that? It was impossible. The difference is that as an engineer he listens to how the sound reacts with other sounds. Harmonies and harmonics. Different people listen in different ways.
> 
> GE was already a legend before this incident but I am sure it didn't harm his reputation.


 
  
 I buy your story about the mixing table, probably he heard that the timing was not right or something, but this is a totally different story how the last bit of say 30 meters of poor quality cable that goes from your fuse box to your AC outlet , where the sound can be bettered if you just add 1 meter of high quality cable in the end, it is impossible!
 No one have thought of RF noise absorption in the rest of the 30 meters, have you ?=)
  
 If you had a filter on the cable like the Isotek Syncro EVO3 maybe, but 99% does not have this feature, think NordOst for example.
  
 I know power regenerators / plants get a calmer sound in some cases, but just connecting a cable from the wall outlet and think the sound are about to get richer is so crazy as it could be. 
  
 If the Power station where behind the wall i can buy it with easiness. 
  
 It would be very interesting to pass this question to some one at Cambridge University or something who can test this or to the professor at KTH.


----------



## Mavwong

I said many times before. It's a bliss if one finds diff cable does not change the sound. And or one's home does not need AC filter what so ever. End result is one will save tons of money.


----------



## Beolab

mavwong said:


> I said many times before. It's a bliss if one finds diff cable does not change the sound. And or one's home does not need AC filter what so ever. End result is one will save tons of money.


 
  
 And the cable makers are going bankrupt =)
  
 If you looking at the Professional studio side, i haven't seen any High End power cables connected direct to the mains, they are using in some High End studios PowerPlants think Taurus or Medical Certified Plants for example here in Sweden.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

mavwong said:


> I said many times before. It's a bliss if one finds diff cable does not change the sound. And or one's home does not need AC filter what so ever. End result is one will save tons of money.


 
 totally agree Mavwong.
  
 Beolab
 Scientists claimed there was no way people could hear the difference between 44.1k and 192k but they were looking in the wrong place. it was people in the industry like Bob Stuart who showed why it 'did' make a difference. Some cables do make a difference Beolab. That has been my experience but I do not know why they make a difference. Now, if it were eventually proved that it was simply the cable 'connections' that created the musical and/or sound difference between one cable and another then wouldn't that make your point about the pre-existing length of power cable moot? I am not having a pop. Just saying that we don't know the reason but many of us can hear a clear difference.
  
 I do use a Syncro Evo3 btw and I must say I am very pleased with the results. I suspect my old house has excessive hum in the system.


----------



## rkt31

some power cable rejects emi and rfi better and even that difference in the extent of rejection may also change the sound. i won't say the change will always be better. for some lack of noise due to high rejection of emi and rfi may be perceived as loss of dynamics, if they are not accustomed or conditioned to that extra lack of noise. I recently put on snap on ferrite cores on mains power cable, power cable of blu Ray player and also put two audioquest jitterbugs in the USB inputs of blu Ray player. there is so much improvement in noise area that initially I thought what happened to the Treble. it seemed that Treble lost all of it's bite . but after few days I realized that in fact the dynamics have improved instead of initial impression of less dynamics. now due to blacker and calmer background the sounds seem to emanate more freely and suddenly. now there is more reserve dynamic power that way.


----------



## Articnoise

I agree with rkt31.

  

 A good audio grade power cord do not only transfer the power from the grid to the PSU. It filtering (skin-filtering) it from electromagnetic pollution and HF noise that’s comes both from the grid and from the air around us. Think about all the signals we have around us coming from: routers, mobile phones, TV, microwaves, refrigerators, and radio signals and so on. With gear with more bandwidths and more transmissions, more EM noise can infiltrates our audio gear, sneaking in through the power line. In reality the distortion in a typical home can be quite high and has to be measured in percent. This pollution can causes distortion that significantly degrading SQ. True is that some audio gear are much more sensitive to “pure power” than others. Some audio gear also have “better filters” built in to their PSUs and a design that making them almost immune.


----------



## Beolab

I can assure you that if we have dune blind folded A / B test at your own home, you couldent here which power cabe that was plugged in, its just a big placebo.

And yes Syncro and power regenerators can give benefit, but not a ordinary power cable without filtration connected directly to the AC outlet. The ordinary HighEnd power cables with screening can not filter out the RFI that is injected from the mains, its just screening the RFI in the air/room you must weigh in to the function of it. Some clame that it does but it is impossible, because many of the smaller cable makers do not have any education in electronics, the just produce a exotic cable and claim whatever they want , because it cant be measured, so how can they know it will reject injected RFI, it impossible. 

The transormers today are much better and does not leak as they did in the fifties, so if you are speaking to a developer it does not have any purpose with it. 
It just looks good on a event and all cable companies call them and ask if they could be their co-sponsor at the High-End event just for the advertising potential. 

But keep feeding the retired Vaccum cleaning cable companies, its your choice. 

Im a reseller of AudioQuest, NordOst, Van Den Hul , Chord Company and i have tested them all. No point. Its more your imagination that it should be better. 

And thats another good question why does it always have to sound better with a cable for $$$ than a $18.99 one from WallMart HiFi , sometimes the cheeper cable may be a more appropriate than the more expensive one. 

Please do some reading about electronics than HiFi for a while and you will come back with different eyes on some "High End snake oil bluffs" in the business trust me. 

We rest this discussion for now!


----------



## lovethatsound

Ok guys let's get back to real subject here (DAVE) Their are NO reviews of chords Dave yet as far as i know.The folks out their want to know if Dave is worth the money or not.


----------



## Beolab

lovethatsound said:


> Ok guys let's get back to real subject here (DAVE) Their are NO reviews of chords Dave yet as far as i know.The folks out their want to know if Dave is worth the money or not.




Yes where is the reviews @Rob Watts & Matt at @Chord Electronics ?


----------



## Kakki

Rob, today, I had a lucky chance to try Dave with Klimax Twin power amp and B&W 805 Diamond. It sounded really nice...!! (Thanks Hiyono for your kindness to bring over your Dave.)
  
 I have 2 questions about the Dave usage as follows based on today's experience.
  
 1. Is there any issues driving efficient speakers using the RCA outputs of Dave? I today tried to drive 805 Diamond directly using the RCA outputs from Dave and it could drive the speakers very well. I read your warning not to drive headphones directly using the XLR outputs but what is the case with RCA outputs driving speakers / headphones? My assumption is that if the RCA outputs are identical to the headphone outs, there will no issues but would like to make a confirmation.
  
 2. When we tried Dave, we used it at around -20db volume but sometimes we needed to increase the volume to 0db or even +3db. Does +3db mean the digital volume in Dave is doing scaling up of the original signal? Is there any recommendation for appropriate volume range when using Dave?
  
 I felt that there were pros and cons when using Dave with an usual power amp and using it to directly drive speakers and would look forward trying it paired with your digital power amplifiers.


----------



## Mython

kakki said:


> Rob, today, I had a lucky chance to try Dave with Klimax Twin power amp and B&W 805 Diamond. It sounded really nice...!! (Thanks Hiyono for your kindness to bring over your Dave.)
> 
> I have 2 questions about the Dave usage as follows based on today's experience.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 The following is *partially* relevant, but I'm sure Rob will provide more in-depth reply to your questions:
  


rob watts said:


> jawed said:
> 
> 
> > If DAVE is like Hugo TT, then max output from DAVE will be >0dB, i.e. music recorded with 0dB peaks will clip.
> ...


----------



## ecwl

kakki said:


> Rob, today, I had a lucky chance to try Dave with Klimax Twin power amp and B&W 805 Diamond. It sounded really nice...!! (Thanks Hiyono for your kindness to bring over your Dave.)
> 
> I have 2 questions about the Dave usage as follows based on today's experience.
> 
> ...




According to the Chord DAVE manual, +3dB is full power (3V for unbalanced). But what doesn't make sense is that the Klimax Twin has 100wpc, 22/28dB gain and B&W 805D are very sensitive speakers. So I have no idea how you can listen at full DAC output. It's a bit unusual unless you have a humongous room. Are you sure you're feeding bit-perfect signals into the DAC? Or did you also have software volume attenuation on the computer? The DAC is not going to perform at its best unless it gets the bit-perfect signal and does the volume attenuation internally...


----------



## JaZZ

ecwl said:


> According to the Chord DAVE manual, +3dB is full power (*3V* for unbalanced). But what doesn't make sense is that the Klimax Twin has 100wpc, 22/28dB gain and B&W 805D are very sensitive speakers. So I have no idea how you can listen at full DAC output. It's a bit unusual unless you have a humongous room. Are you sure you're feeding bit-perfect signals into the DAC? Or did you also have software volume attenuation on the computer? The DAC is not going to perform at its best unless it gets the bit-perfect signal and does the volume attenuation internally...


 
  
 +3 dB means 6 volts.
  


jawed said:


> I have actually embedded an overload margin with Dave - that's why its 20 elements rather than 16 - so data over 0dB will be reproduced with very low distortion. So -3dB is 3v RMS, *+3dB is 6v RMS*


 
  
  
 But yes, I wonder about Kakki's high gain as well.


----------



## StryGR

Wrong, This is voltage not power.
  
 If 0 dB = 3 V, then +3 dB = 4.5 V!
  
 For 6 V, gain should be +6 dB.


----------



## JaZZ

strygr said:


> Wrong, This is voltage not power.
> 
> If 0 dB = 3 V, then +3 dB = 4.5 V!
> 
> For 6 V, gain should be +6 dB.


 
  
 Huuhh!? – Rob Watts doesn't know what he's talking about? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Your basic error: it's not «0 dB» corresponding to 3 V, but –3 dB.


----------



## Kakki

When I said around -20db, that was with Klimax twin. When I said up to 0db or even +3db, that was when Dave directly driving 805 speakers.
 Apologies for making confusion!!


----------



## romaz

strygr said:


> Wrong, This is voltage not power.
> 
> If 0 dB = 3 V, then +3 dB = 4.5 V!
> 
> For 6 V, gain should be +6 dB.


 
 Rob just answered this question 5 days ago in post #1291.  This is what he said:
  
"I have actually embedded an overload margin with Dave - that's why its 20 elements rather than 16 - so data over 0dB will be reproduced with very low distortion. So -3dB is 3v RMS, +3dB is 6v RMS and at this point it is perfectly linear. You need to go to +4dB when clipping will just be about to start. In practice, this means if the control is +4dB or less, Dave won't clip at all. This assumes loads of 33 ohms or easier.
  
Rob"
  
 Based on his statement above, it would not be wise to drive speakers directly with the DAVE.  First of all, at a sensitivity of 88dB SPL, I would not consider these B&Ws sensitive at all.  B&W recommends an amplifier that puts out a minimum of 50 watts for this speaker.  You can buy single-driver crossover-less speakers with a sensitivity of >100dB SPL that can be driven dynamically with 1 watt and so that's what I would call a sensitive speaker but the problem is not sensitivity but rather impedance and in the case of the DAVE, with the 8 ohm load of your speakers (which applies to most speakers), you have serious impedance mismatch.  You'll clip the DAVE all day long.  In Rob's statement above, Rob talks about driving loads 33 ohms or easier (meaning >33 ohms and not <33 ohms) but this is through the headphone port, not the RCAs or XLRs in the back.  According to the DAVE manual, the RCA/XLR outputs in the back can "drive down to a 50 ohm load."


----------



## romaz

kakki said:


> Is there any issues driving efficient speakers using the RCA outputs of Dave?


 
 If you're dead set on driving speakers directly with the DAVE, it is possible but you have to be creative.  With very high-efficiency speakers like a Klipsch horn speaker (efficiency up to 105 dB) and autoformer boxes (http://www.zeroimpedance.com/zeroimpedance_011.htm), you can potentially boost the impedance of these speakers to 64 ohms and then I don't see why you couldn't use the DAVE to drive these speakers directly.
  
 I can see why there is a push to put nothing between the DAVE and your transducers (headphones or speakers) because any preamp or amp would rob the DAVE of some of its magical transparency.


----------



## Jawed

There will be Chord digital power amps that work the same way as DAVE DAC:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/615#post_12041809



> Dave has 705/768 kHz DX digital outputs to go with my digital power amps. These are non-switching, but still retain the analogue simplicity of two resistors and 2 capacitors plus a single global feedback path. But power output will be from 20W to at least 200W. I just finished testing the DX outputs today.
> 
> The first DX power amp will be available next year and will initially be 20W RMS with a 70W mono-block option.




My theory of how it will work:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/756029/chord-hugo-tt-high-end-dac-amp-impressions-thread/210#post_12249147



> My understanding is that the DAVE FPGA produces a 5-bit 100 ish megahertz noise-shaped stream which is fed into the pulse array DAC.
> 
> I'm assuming that the DAC can be placed inside the power amplifier. With a big power supply. And deliver lots more current on its outputs than the same DAC inside TT or DAVE.
> 
> I'm guessing that the DAVE FPGA will produce a different stream (well, two streams at 768KHz, stereo?) after having done most of the processing that DAVE normally does (using 164,000 taps) and the power amp will require a small FPGA to re-format the input from DAVE into the format accepted by the pulse array DAC. So, my guess is that the power amp will have the noise shaper implemented in a small FPGA to feed directly into the DAC.




DAVE might be able to drive 8 ohm headphones (Mojo can) but they don't demand the 10s of watts of power on peaks that these loudspeakers will require :tongue_smile:


----------



## rkt31

8ohm into 4.5v or 6v or even 3v would draw heavy current , I don't know it will be safe or not but in past some people tried 8 ohm speakers with Hugo.


----------



## rkt31

I don't know about klimax twin but considering a low and mid gain option in benchmark ahb2, it can be good match to Dave !


----------



## Christer

I suppose digital amps  work a lot differently than  ordinary old school amps?
 But will  a 20 watts, or even 70 watts? really drive anything else than Horn speakers?
 Many years ago I had some huge horns  that I used to drive with a 30 watt amp with nice but typically colored horns sound in the midrange. But the best most powerful bass of any speakers I have  ever owned. It had 15 inch basses  in a huge horn.Now I am using  much more neutral electrostatic hybrids from ML and before buying them I tested them with quite a few amps in the 100 to 200 watts range before settling for MF's KW550 which outputs 900 watts per channel into 4ohm and 500 into 8 ohm.
 The first not really very strong climax  by Mahler standards of the mighty second  in Channel Classics SACD recording scaled 150 watts on a machintosh amp .
 With both orchestra and choir and soloist on full blast in the last movement REAL CLIMAX machintoshes 250 watts were not enough.
 My MF copes very well with double the power though.


----------



## Jawed

20W stereo / 70W mono is the baby one, apparently. Also, the ability to drive loudspeakers is not, as you hinted, the current capability into 8 ohms, but the current into 4, 2 or even 1 ohm (Apogee Scintilla 

The 8 ohm rating of an amplifier doesn't tell you what it can do into speakers with lower impedance.


----------



## Beolab

@Rob Watts
  
 Does Dave / Hugo also have +3,5db extra digital headroom, or what is your opinion of it Rob ?
  
 Regarding the "3.5 dB high headroom DSP" Implemented in Benchmarks DAC2 series, the product page of the DAC2 states the following:
_"*All D/A converters need 3.5 dB "excess" digital headroom, but few have any headroom above 0 dBFS.*_ All of the digital processing in the DAC2 DX is designed to handle signals as high as +3.5 dBFS. Most digital systems clip signals that exceed 0 dBFS. The 0 dBFS limitation seems reasonable, as 0 dBFS is the highest sinusoidal signal level that can be represented in a digital system. However, a detailed investigation of the mathematics of PCM digital systems will reveal that inter-sample peaks may reach levels slightly higher than +3 dBFS while individual samples never exceed 0 dBFS. These inter-sample overs are common in commercial releases, and are of no consequence in a PCM system until they reach an interpolation process. But, for a variety of reasons, virtually all audio D/A converters use an interpolation process. The interpolation process is absolutely necessary to achieve 24-bit state-of-the art conversion performance. Unfortunately, inter-sample overs cause clipping in most interpolators. This clipping produces distortion products that are non-harmonic and non-musical . We believe these broadband distortion products often add a harshness or false high-frequency sparkle to digital reproduction. The DAC2 DX avoids these problems by maintaining at least 3.5 dB of headroom in the entire conversion system.

*We believe this added headroom is a groundbreaking improvement delivering significant sonic advantages."*

 More detailed explanations and graphs behind the reasons to implement the 3.5 dB high headroom DSP can be found in two application notes at the Benchmark website, written by John Siau:


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> Does Dave / Hugo also have +3,5db extra digital headroom, or what is your opinion of it Rob ?
> 
> ...


 
  
 I found this faintly amusing. Yes all FIR filters require an overload margin embedded in the data, to handle Gibbs phenomena. I have always had an internal overload for the last twenty years, and its just a question of simple competency. But that said, you would be surprised how many devices do not have any overload margin.
  
 Is it a big sound quality issue? Maybe not, as a lot of recordings are clipped anyway. And those that are not clipped or compressed have lots of headroom normally anyway.
  
 But I test with random noise at 0DBFS, and max freq square waves and the filter must not overload on interpolation samples. Its just a question of simple competency - nothing to create a fuss over.
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> I found this faintly amusing. Yes all FIR filters require an overload margin embedded in the data, to handle Gibbs phenomena. I have always had an internal overload for the last twenty years, and its just a question of simple competency. But that said, you would be surprised how many devices do not have any overload margin.
> 
> Is it a big sound quality issue? Maybe not, as a lot of recordings are clipped anyway. And those that are not clipped or compressed have lots of headroom normally anyway.
> 
> ...




Thanks Rob! 

You should wright a book with your memoirs incl. your technical knowledge / groundbreaking solutions for the afterworld


----------



## audionewbi

beolab said:


> Thanks Rob!
> 
> You should wright a book with your memoirs incl. your technical knowledge / groundbreaking solutions for the afterworld


I think Rob really don't think that aspect of his design is group breaking but just doing the bare minimum right. Perhaps what other brands consider ground breaking should really be the bare minimum of doing the design right.


----------



## ecwl

I really appreciate all the insights Rob Watts provided on DAC designs in this forum. Because it's not only about that. It's also about what to listen for when the measured performance is improved when comparing different DACs. Moreover, the experimentation during the design phase of Chord DAVE truly has a lot more implications for audiophiles beyond DACs. The fact that lower noise floor and improved noise floor modulation are audible beyond previously assumed thresholds of hearing naturally implies that different signal cables, preamplifiers and power amplifiers with varying levels of noise / dynamic range performances matter.  Similarly, the audibility of dynamic transients and timing based on variations in oversampling and tap length also implies that the so-called speed of an amplifier, aka. the ability to reproduce transients, probably matters beyond just having a non-clipping amplifier with flat frequency response between 20-20kHz and low levels of THD.


----------



## Beolab

Yes, but i dont think we have so many other dac designers with Robs in dept experience in the world, so call it whatever you want but you need to think of so many aspects when you are designing, so if you have thaught about all known aspects, then it is a true achievement in my book.


----------



## Beolab

.


----------



## Jawed

I suspect Rob is still learning. Which is fun and rewarding.


----------



## romaz

If you guys are interested in a really good read, just check out all of Rob's posts -- you'll come out feeling a lot smarter. I've compiled some of Rob's comments that are among my favorites (if you are not able to locate certain comments I have attributed to Rob as comments he has publicly made on Head-Fi, it is because some of the comments were made privately to me). Some comments were made with respect to the Mojo but should apply equally to the DAVE. Consider some of his answers as best practices with the DAVE.

What is most important with the DAVE?

[COLOR=0000CD]_In simple terms its about resolution first, then less jitter sensitivity, lower distortion and noise.

Subjectively the resolution gives better depth perception, and lower THD and noise gives smoother sound._[/COLOR]

Why do you believe SE is better than balanced for a DAC?

[COLOR=0000CD]_Well this is a complex subject, and sometimes a balanced connection does sound better than single ended (SE) - in a pre-power context - but it depends upon the environment, and the pre and power and the interconnect. But the downside of balanced is that you are doubling the number of analogue components in the direct signal path, and this degrades transparency. In my experience every passive component is audible, every metal to metal interface (including solder joints - I once had a lot of fun listening to solder) has an impact - in case of metal/metal interfaces it degrades detail resolution and the perception of depth. So going balanced will have a cost in transparency.

In DAC design, going balanced is essential with silicon design; there is simply too much substrate noise and other effects not too. But with discrete DAC's you do not need to worry about this, so going SE on a discrete DAC is possible, and is how all my DAC's are done. But differential operation hides certain problems (notably reference circuit) that has serious SQ effects; so going SE means those problems are exposed, which forces one to solve the issue fundamentally. In short, to make SE work you have to solve many more problems, but the result of solving those problems solves SQ issues than differential operation hides when you do measurements.

In the case of Dave, I have gotten state of the art measured performance - distortion harmonics below -150 dB, zero measurable noise floor modulation - and there is no way you could do this with a differential architecture. So it is possible to have better measured performance with SE than differential, but it is a lot harder to do it - indeed, the only way of getting virtually zero distortion and noise floor modulation is SE. _[/COLOR]

What are distortion figures for the DAVE?

[COLOR=0000CD]_Distortion components are all below -150dB, so better than 24 bits. Noise is 21 bits. But these numbers, although very important, won't tell you how good it sounds. Noise floor modulation, which is important, is un-measurable, and with my APX555 the noise floor is at -180dB._[/COLOR]

Why do vocals sound so good on the DAVE?
[COLOR=0000CD]_
The simple answer to why vocals sound so good on Mojo is complete lack of noise floor modulation._[/COLOR]

What is noise floor modulation?

[COLOR=0000CD]_What is noise floor modulation? When a sine wave signal is used in a DAC, you get different types of distortion - harmonic distortion (distortion of integer multiples from the sine wave fundamental) enharmonic distortion (distortion products that are non integer) and changes to the noise level. So for example you may have a DAC that produces noise at -120dB with -60dB sine wave (traditional dynamic range test) but the noise with a 0dB sine wave maybe -115dB - thus the noise has increased by reproducing a higher level sine wave - in this case the noise floor (seen by doing an FFT measurement) would increase by 5dB.

Now noise floor modulation is highly audible - it interferes with the brain's processing of data from the ear - and immeasurably small levels of noise floor modulation is audible. I know this as I have listened to noise floor modulation at around -200dB - these numbers are derived from simulation - and heard the effect when the noise floor modulation mechanism was switched on and off._
[/COLOR]

What does noise floor modulation sound like?

_[COLOR=0000CD]Noise floor modulation is extremely important subjectively - you perceive the slightest amount as a brightness or hardness to the sound. When it gets bad, you hear glare or grain in the treble.

Less noise floor modulation, smoother sound quality. The curious thing about this is that the brain is very sensitive to it, so you can easily hear it. Problem is that many listeners hear the brightness as more detail resolution, and so think it sounds better - but that's another story.[/COLOR]_

What is clock jitter, total jitter, source jitter?

[COLOR=0000CD]_Clock jitter is timing uncertainty (or inaccuracy) on the main clock that is feeding the digital outputs. Its often expressed as cycle to cycle jitter as an RMS figure, but can be total jitter which includes low frequency jitter too. Total jitter is the most important specification. If you want here is a good definition:[/COLOR]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter

[COLOR=0000CD]As you can see, the jitter subject can get complicated and its often abused by marketing...

But with all of my DAC's you do not need to worry at all about source jitter, so all of the above AK numbers are fine. So long as its below 2uS (that is 2,000,000 pS) you are OK, and nobody has jitter that bad!

1. SPDIF decoding is all digital within the FPGA. The FPGA uses a digital phase lock loop (DPLL) and a tiny buffer. This re-clocks the data and eliminates the incoming jitter from the source. This system took 6 years to perfect, and means that the sound quality defects from source jitter is eliminated. How do I know that? Measurements - 2 uS of jitter has no affect whatsoever on measurements (and I can resolve noise floor at -180dB with my APX555) and sound quality tests against RAM buffer systems revealed no significant difference. You can (almost) use a piece of damp string and the source jitter will be eliminated.

2. USB is isochronous asynchronous. This means that the FPGA supplies the timing to the source, and incoming USB data is re clocked from the low jitter master clock. So again source jitter is eliminated.[/COLOR]_

Does the DAVE have a fancy FEMTO clock like other DACs to help reduce jitter?

[COLOR=0000CD]_The issue of clocks is actually very complex, way more of a problem then in simply installing femto clocks. People always want a simple answer to problems even if the problem is multi-dimensional and complex. I will give you a some examples of the complexities of this issue.

Some years back a femto clock became available, and I was very excited about using it as it had a third of the cycle to cycle jitter of the crystal oscillators we were using. So I plugged it in, and listened to it. Unexpectedly, it sounded brighter and harder - completely the opposite of all the times I have listened to lower jitter. When you lower jitter levels in the master clock, it sounds smoother and warmer and more natural.

So I did some careful measurements, and I could see some problems.

The noise floor was OK, the same as before, and all the usual measurements were the same. But you could see more fringing on the fundamental, and this was quite apparent. Now when you do a FFT of say a 1 kHz sine wave, in an ideal world you would see the tone at 1 kHz and each frequency bucket away the output would be the systems noise floor. That is, you get a sharp single line representing the tone. But with a real FFT, you get smearing of the tone, and this is due to the windowing function employed by the FFT and jitter problems within the ADC, so instead of a single line you get a number of lines with the edges tailing of into the noise. This is known as side lobes or fringing. Now one normally calibrates the FFT and the instrument so you know what the ideal should be. Now with a DAC that has low frequency jitter, you get more fringing. Now I have spent many years on jitter and eliminating the effects of it on sound quality, and I know that fringing is highly audible, as I have done many listening tests on it. What is curious, is that it sounds exactly like noise floor modulation - so reduce fringing is the same as reducing noise floor modulation - they both subjectively sound smoother and darker with less edge and hardness.

So a clock that had lower cycle to cycle jitter actually had much worse low frequency jitter, and it was the low frequency jitter that was causing the problem and this had serious sound quality consequences. So a simple headline statement of low jitter is meaningless. But actually the problem is very much more complex than this.

What is poorly understood is that DAC architectures can tolerate vastly different levels of master clock jitter, and this is way more important than the headline oscillator jitter number. I will give you a few examples:

1. DAC structure makes a big difference. I had a silicon chip design I was working on some years back. When you determine the jitter sensitivity you can specify this - so I get a number of incoming jitter, and a number for the OP THD and noise that is needed. So initially we were working with 4pS jitter, and 120dB THD and noise. No problem, the architecture met this requirement as you can create models to run simulations to show what the jitter will do - and you can run the model so only jitter is changed, nothing else. But then the requirements got changed to 15 pS jitter. Again, no problem, I simply redesigned the DAC and then achieved these numbers. So its easy to change the sensitivity by a factor of 4 just by design of the DAC itself - something that audio designers using chips can't do.

2. DAC type has a profound effect on performance. The most sensitive is regular DSD or PDM, where jitter is modulation dependent, and you get pattern noise from the noise shaper degrading the output noise, plus distortion from jitter. R2R DAC's are very sensitive as they create noise floor modulation from jitter proportionate to the rate of change of signal (plus other problems due to the slow speed of switching elements). I was very concerned about these issues, and its one reason I invented pulse array, as the benefit of pulse array is that the error from jitter is only a fixed noise (using random jitter source with no low frequency problems). Now a fixed noise is subjectively unimportant - it does not interfere with the brains ability to decode music. Its when errors are signal dependent that the problems of perception start, and with pulse array I only get a fixed noise - and I know this for a fact due to simulation and measurements.

3. The DAC degrades clock jitter. What is not appreciated is that master clock jitter is only the start of the problem. When a clock goes through logic elements, (buffers level shifters, clock trees gates and flip-flops plus problem of induced noise) every stage adds more jitter. As a rough rule of thumb a logic element adds 1 pS of more jitter. So a clock input of 1pS will degrade through the device to be effectively 4 pS once it has gone through these elements (this was the number from a device I worked on some years ago). So its the actual jitter on the DAC active elements that is important not the clock starting jitter. 

The benefit I have with Pulse Array is that the jitter has no sound quality degrading consequences - unlike all other architectures - as it creates no distortion or noise floor modulation. Because the clock is very close to the active elements (only one logic level away), the jitter degradation is minimal and there are no skirting issues at all. This has been confirmed with simulation and measurement - its a fixed noise, and by eliminating the clock jitter (I have a special way of doing this) noise only improves by a negligible 0.5 dB (127 dB to 127.5 dB). 

This is true of all pulse array DAC's even the simpler 4e ones. In short the jitter problem was solved many years ago, but I don't bleat on about it as its not an issue and because it's way too complex a subject to easily discuss.

Pulse Array is a constant switching scheme - that is it always switches at exactly the same rate irrespective of the data, unlike DSD, R2R, or current source DAC's. This means that errors due to switching activity and jitter are not signal dependent, and so is innately immune from jitter creating distortion and noise floor modulation and any other signal related errors. The only other DAC that is constant switching activity is switched capacitor topology, but this has gain proportionate to absolute clock frequency - so it still has clock problems.

I plan to publish more detailed analysis of this, but from memory all of my DAC's have a negligible 0.5dB degradation due to master clock jitter, so its a non issue.

And yes you are correct, the absolute frequency is quite unimportant, so forget oven clocks, atomic clocks etc. Also the clock must be physically close to the active elements,with dedicated stripline PCB routing with proper termination. Running the clock externally is a crazy thing to do, as you are simply adding more jitter and noise and an extra PLL in the system._[/COLOR]

With the DAVE, does the quality of the source matter?

[COLOR=0000CD]_Dave is insensitive to the digital source, assuming the data is bit perfect._[/COLOR]

How is the DAVE impervious to low quality source components like a basic laptop to the extent that they can sound equivalent go a very expensive, purpose-built music server?

[COLOR=0000CD]_Going back to when Hugo first came out, I noticed different SQ with different lap-tops and PC's.

Now the problem is definitely not jitter from the source - my DAC's can tolerate 2uS of jitter and it will have zero difference to the measurements - also the USB is isochronous asynchronous so the timing comes from the DAC clock, so source jitter is not a problem.

So I looked into the issue of different SQ with sources and found two sources of error:

1. RF noise. RF noise is a major pain with audio. With analogue electronics, very tiny amounts of RF noise will cause intermodulation distortion with the audio signal, and the intermodulation products is noise floor modulation. 

2. Correlated current noise. If a tiny current that is signal related but distorted enters the ground plane, then this current will be a source of error, as the current in the ground plane induces small voltages. Now this then adds or subtracts to small signals, thus degrading small signal resolution - and this upsets the brains ability to calculate depth. Now one of the most fascinating things I discovered with Dave is there is no limit to how small this error can be without a degradation in depth perception - so it does not matter how small the error is it will have an impact.

So the solution to the above problems is galvanic isolation. This means that RF noise from the source can't get into Dave, and small correlated currents can't get in too. And this approach gave two benefits - much smoother sound quality, and a deeper soundstage.

Now with Dave I can no longer hear which source is connected, but before without the galvanic isolation it was easy to hear. _
[/COLOR]
USB is widely believed to be a noisy interface. Some music server companies (Baetis) suggest you should avoid USB at all costs and that SPDIF is superior. Does this apply to the Mojo or DAVE?

[COLOR=0000CD]_Just to make it 100% clear - the USB input will measure absolutely identically to the coax or optical inputs if the USB data is bit perfect.

I have set up my APX555 so that it uses the USB via ASIO drivers, and I get exactly the same measurements on all inputs - 125 dB DR, THD and noise of 0.00017% 3v 1k 300 ohms. I have done careful jitter analysis, FFT analysis down to Mojo's -175dB noise floor, and can measure no difference whatsoever on all inputs (with the APX always grounded on the coax).

If somebody does measure a difference its down to mangled data on the USB interface (or perhaps poor measuring equipment...)_
[/COLOR]
Which input sounds the best on the DAVE?

[COLOR=0000CD]_With Dave the best input (by a tiny margin) is USB, then optical is very close. The BNC/AES depends upon the source and cabling._
[/COLOR]
Does the DAVE's USB require 5V power?

[COLOR=0000CD]_It needs the 5V to power the USB decoder chip - this is how the galvanic isolation works, as the isolation is on the decoded I2S data post USB._[/COLOR]

What USB cables are best?

[COLOR=0000CD]_So what are the best USB cables? Firstly, be careful. A lot of audiophile USB cables actually increase RF noise and make it sound brighter, and superficially impressive - but this is just distortion brightening things up. Go for USB cables that have ferrites in the cable is a good idea - it may also solve any RF issues from the mobile that you may have too._[/COLOR]

What about USB purifiers/reclockers (USB Regen)?

[COLOR=0000CD]_As to USB purifiers, for Dave, Hugo TT, 2 Qute don't bother as they are galvanically isolated. But in this case it's absolutely nothing due to jitter - its about RF noise and signal correlated noise upsetting Hugo.'s analogue electronics,not due to jitter as source jitter is eliminated by the internal buffer and DPLL._[/COLOR]

What about SPDIF cables, will any SPDIF cable do?

[COLOR=0000CD]_Sadly no. Mojo is a DAC, that means its an analogue component, and all analogue components are sensitive to RF noise and signal correlated in-band noise, so the RF character of the electrical cables can have an influence. What happens is random RF noise gets into the analogue electronics, creating intermodulation distortion with the wanted audio signal. The result of this is noise floor modulation. Now the brain is incredibly sensitive to noise floor modulation, and perceives this has a hardness to the sound - easily confused as better detail resolution as it sounds brighter. Reduce RF noise, and it will sound darker and smoother. The second source is distorted in band noise, and this mixes with the wanted signal (crosstalk source) and subtly alters the levels of small signals - this in turn degrades the perception of sound stage depth. This is another source of error for which the brain is astonishingly sensitive too. The distorted in band noise comes from the DAP, phone or PC internal electronics processing the digital data, with the maximum noise coming as the signal crosses through zero - all digital data going from all zeroes to all ones. Fortunately mobile electronics are power frugal and create less RF and signal correlated noise than PC's. Note that optical connection does not have any of these problems, and is my preferred connection. 

Does this mean that high end cables are better? Sadly not necessarily. What one needs is good RF characteristics, and some expensive cables are RF poor. Also note that if it sounds brighter its worse, as noise floor modulation is spicing up the sound (its the MSG of sound). So be careful when listening and if its brighter its superficially more impressive but in the long term musically worse. At the end of the day, its musicality only that counts, not how impressive it sounds. _[/COLOR]

Do AC cables make a difference?

[COLOR=0000CD]_In the 1980's, people started talking about mains cables making a difference to the sound quality - and I didn't believe it either - particularly as my pre-amp had 300 dB of PSU rejection in the power supply. But I did a listening test, and yes I could hear a difference. Frankly I still could not believe the evidence of my own ears, so did a blind listening test with my girl friend. She reported exactly the same observation - mains cables did make a difference to SQ.

To cut a long story short, I proved the problem was down to RF noise. RF noise inter-modulates with the wanted audio signal within the analogue electronics, and if the RF noise is random, then the distortion is random too and you get a increase in noise floor with signal. This increase in noise floor is noise floor modulation, and the brain is very sensitive to it..._[/COLOR]

Should you connect the DAVE to a line conditioner?

[COLOR=0000CD]_Give RF filters a go. Dave has an incredible amount of RF filtering internally, but you may get a benefit for other gear with RF isolation. If it sounds smoother and darker its better is the rule here - this will also make dynamics seem quashed too, but that's just reducing noise floor modulation._[/COLOR]

Is there a problem leaving the DAVE on 24/7 or is it best to put it into standby mode or turn it off completely at the end of each day?

[COLOR=0000CD]_ I leave both my Daves on all the time - but I am just lazy..._[/COLOR]

Does the DAVE benefit from mechanical isolation (Stillpoints, etc)?

[COLOR=0000CD]_Yes all products do.
_[/COLOR]
Should the HF filter be used for both hi-res files as well as 16/44?

[COLOR=0000CD]_The HF filter is a sharp cutoff filter set to 60 kHz. The intention was to bandwidth limit high sample rate recordings - DXD and 384k have huge amounts of noise shaper noise from the ADC. This noise will degrade SQ by increasing noise floor modulation as the out of band noise creates intermodulation distortion with the wanted audio signal in the analogue electronics.

Now it works very well, in using it makes it sound smoother and darker - exactly what you get from lower noise floor modulation. But the curious thing is that it also sounds better with 44.1 k - curious because the WTA filter typically has a stop band attenuation of 140 dB (worst case 120 dB). So out of band noise is very low with 44.1 k and I was not expecting a SQ change with the filter with CD. The filter is not something added, its just a different set of coefficients for the 16 FS to 256 FS WTA filter.
_[/COLOR]

On upsampling the source (i.e. HQPlayer) with Chord products:
[COLOR=0000CD]_
Oh dear. Do NOT use your computer to up-sample or change the data when you use one of my DAC's.

All competent DAC's up-sample and filter internally; the issue is how well that filtering is done, in terms of how well the timing of transients is reconstructed from the original analogue. Computers are poor devices to use for manipulating data in real time as they are concurrent serial devices - everything has to go through one to 8 processors in sequence. With hardware and FPGA's you do not need to do that, you can do thousands of operations in parallel. Dave has 166 DSP cores with each core being able to do one FIR tap in one clock cycle. That is incredibly powerful processing power way more powerful than a PC.

But its not just about raw processing power but the algorithm for the filter. The WTA filter is the only algorithm that has been designed to reduce timing of transients errors, and the only one that has been optimised by thousands of listening tests.

So the long and the short is don't let the source mess with the signal (except perhaps with a good EQ program) and let Mojo (or DAVE) deal with the original data, as Mojo (or DAVE) is way more capable_[/COLOR]

On why you shouldn't upsample PCM to DSD and why PCM sounds better than DSD:

[COLOR=0000CD]_DSD as a format has major problems with it; in particular it has two major and serious flaws:

1. Timing. The noise shapers used with DSD have severe timing errors. You can see this easily using Verilog simulations. If you use a step change transient (op is zero, then goes high) with a large signal, then do the same with a small signal, then you get major differences in the analogue output - the large signal has no delay, the small signal has a much larger delay. This is simply due to the noise shaper requiring time for the internal integrators to respond to the error. This amplitude related timing error is of the order of micro seconds and is very audible. Whenever there is a timing inaccuracy, the brain has problems making sense of the sound, and perceives the timing error has a softness to the transient; in short timing errors screw up the ability to hear the starting and stopping of notes.

2. Small signal accuracy. Noise shapers have problems with very small signals in that the 64 times 1 bit output (DSD 64) does not have enough innate resolution to accurately resolve small signals. What happens when small signals are not properly reproduced? You get a big degradation in the ability to perceive depth information, and this makes the sound flat with no layering of instruments in space. Now there is no limit to how accurate the noise shaper needs to be; with the noise shaper that is with Mojo I have 1000 times more small signal resolution than conventional DAC's - and against DSD 64 its 10,000 times more resolving power. This is why some many users have reported that Mojo has so much better space and sounds more 3D with better layering - and its mostly down to the resolving power of the pulse array noise shaper. This problem of depth perception is unlimited in the sense that to perfectly reproduce depth you need no limit to the resolving power of the noise shaper. 

So if you take a PCM signal and convert it to DSD you hear two problems - a softness to the sound, as you can no longer perceive the starting and stopping of notes; and a very flat sound-stage with no layering as the small signals are not reproduced accurately enough, so the brain can't use the very small signals that are used to give depth perception.

So to conclude; yes I agree, DSD is fundamentally flawed, and unlike PCM where the DAC is the fundamental limit, its in the format itself. And it is mostly limited by the format._[/COLOR]

And my favorite comment from Rob (this one is regarding the Mojo):

[COLOR=0000CD]_I was kind of annoyed that some people were comparing it to $100 DACs when the true competitors were $100K._[/COLOR]


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## audionewbi

This post deserve front page status.


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## Mython

Does anyone in this thread have a pair of dipole loudspeakers?


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## Sonic77

I have been listening to the Dave using a CAPS v3 Zuma (Computer Audiophile Pocket Server) with Audiophile Optimizer software, in conjunction with Jplay, the sound is just so awesome. I also listened to cd's and they sounded clear and detailed as well. I have Magnapan 3.7i speakers (Emotive XPR-1 mono amps) (Epik Empire Dual Subwoofers) and the sound is very open and very detailed, the bass hits you hard in the chest, a much fuller sound then the $30k Magico speakers, which I listened to at the high end audio store. I really can't tell if the Dave is breaking in, because to me it has sounded great from the beginning. I use Cardas cables as well as Audioquest Diamond cables. I also use a Panamax power cleaner to filter any electrical anomalies, further I use Triode power cables through out. I just wanted to give an idea of the equipment I am using, so you know where I'm coming from in my comments.


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## romaz

sonic77 said:


> I have been listening to the Dave using a CAPS v3 Zuma (Computer Audiophile Pocket Server) with Audiophile Optimizer software, in conjunction with Jplay, the sound is just so awesome. I also listened to cd's and they sounded clear and detailed as well. I have Magnapan 3.7i speakers (Emotive XPR-1 mono amps) (Epik Empire Dual Subwoofers) and the sound is very open and very detailed, the bass hits you hard in the chest, a much fuller sound then the $30k Magico speakers, which I listened to at the high end audio store. I really can't tell if the Dave is breaking in, because to me it has sounded great from the beginning. I use Cardas cables as well as Audioquest Diamond cables. I also use a Panamax power cleaner to filter any electrical anomalies, further I use Triode power cables through out. I just wanted to give an idea of the equipment I am using, so you know where I'm coming from in my comments.


 
 You have a highly optimized music server and I have been waiting for someone like you who uses a CAPS type device tweaked with AO, JPlay, etc. on the DAVE to comment.  I presume you've probably connected it to a good outboard linear PSU?  Can you comment whether your CAPS device sounds any better with the DAVE compared to your CD player and for that matter, a basic PC/Mac if you've tried it?  Even if they all sound good, are there unique sonic characteristics of each that shine through for you that allow you to identify them?
  
 Having heard it for myself, I have bought into Rob's claim that the DAVE is immune to source jitter but I have a hard time believing that all sources will sound exactly the same.  Those that know me know I have done quite a bit of testing of music servers and without question, each server has it's own character and are amenable to tweaks.  For example, with something like an Aurender X100, the difference between using the X100 stock vs upgrading its integrated switching PSU to an outboard aftermarket LPSU can be very profound.  Bigger and tighter bass, smoother details and quieter noise floor and the difference isn't so subtle.  I have also come to appreciate the tonal character of something like an Auralic Aries vs an Aurender N10, a TotalDac d1-server, or CAD CAT server (ie the TotalDAC d1-server has rich tonal body, the Aurender N10 layers details exquisitely, etc) that allow me to single them out.   I struggle to see how these identifying characteristics just all go away and how something like a really good PSU on the source won't matter when paired with the DAVE but maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe a cheap $600 Auralic Aries Mini will sound as good as a $17,000 Aurender W20.  If this is true, then the DAVE isn't transparent to the source, it is transparent to the source file.


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## Mavwong

I am using highly optimize server too. Total passive cool case, out board linear dual PS (19V and 12V) into HDplex PS (19V), win server 2012 essential in core mode, AO, jplay, process lasso.
  
 I have not been AB against a good transport if you ask me, reason is I am too lazy lolz. I just want to enjoy music but not flipping CD 
  
 I tried Mac, don't like it. Fan noise could be an issue, and mac os not tweekable to my liking.
  
 Now comes the question if Dave is totally immune to changes on my server. Not totally, but Dave is the most immune to my ear. I still impress how it sounded on just ipod as source while I audit it at the audio show.
  
  
  
 Quote:


romaz said:


> You have a highly optimized music server and I have been waiting for someone like you who uses a CAPS type device tweaked with AO, JPlay, etc. on the DAVE to comment.  I presume you've probably connected it to a good outboard linear PSU?  Can you comment whether your CAPS device sounds any better with the DAVE compared to your CD player and for that matter, a basic PC/Mac if you've tried it?  Even if they all sound good, are there unique sonic characteristics of each that shine through for you that allow you to identify them?
> 
> Having heard it for myself, I have bought into Rob's claim that the DAVE is immune to source jitter but I have a hard time believing that all sources will sound exactly the same.  Those that know me know I have done quite a bit of testing of music servers and without question, each server has it's own character and are amenable to tweaks.  For example, with something like an Aurender X100, the difference between using the X100 stock vs upgrading its integrated switching PSU to an outboard aftermarket LPSU can be very profound.  Bigger and tighter bass, smoother details and quieter noise floor and the difference isn't so subtle.  I have also come to appreciate the tonal character of something like an Auralic Aries vs an Aurender N10, a TotalDac d1-server, or CAD CAT server (ie the TotalDAC d1-server has rich tonal body, the Aurender N10 layers details exquisitely, etc) that allow me to single them out.   I struggle to see how these identifying characteristics just all go away and how something like a really good PSU on the source won't matter when paired with the DAVE but maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe a cheap $600 Auralic Aries Mini will sound as good as a $17,000 Aurender W20.  If this is true, then the DAVE isn't transparent to the source, it is transparent to the source file.


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## Sonic77

romaz said:


> You have a highly optimized music server and I have been waiting for someone like you who uses a CAPS type device tweaked with AO, JPlay, etc. on the DAVE to comment.  I presume you've probably connected it to a good outboard linear PSU?  Can you comment whether your CAPS device sounds any better with the DAVE compared to your CD player and for that matter, a basic PC/Mac if you've tried it?  Even if they all sound good, are there unique sonic characteristics of each that shine through for you that allow you to identify them?
> 
> Having heard it for myself, I have bought into Rob's claim that the DAVE is immune to source jitter but I have a hard time believing that all sources will sound exactly the same.  Those that know me know I have done quite a bit of testing of music servers and without question, each server has it's own character and are amenable to tweaks.  For example, with something like an Aurender X100, the difference between using the X100 stock vs upgrading its integrated switching PSU to an outboard aftermarket LPSU can be very profound.  Bigger and tighter bass, smoother details and quieter noise floor and the difference isn't so subtle.  I have also come to appreciate the tonal character of something like an Auralic Aries vs an Aurender N10, a TotalDac d1-server, or CAD CAT server (ie the TotalDAC d1-server has rich tonal body, the Aurender N10 layers details exquisitely, etc) that allow me to single them out.   I struggle to see how these identifying characteristics just all go away and how something like a really good PSU on the source won't matter when paired with the DAVE but maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe a cheap $600 Auralic Aries Mini will sound as good as a $17,000 Aurender W20.  If this is true, then the DAVE isn't transparent to the source, it is transparent to the source file.


 

 Yes I use a HD plex like Mavwong, yes I think it does sound a lot better then my cd transport, yes better then a PC set up, but that sounds pretty good too, I agree with Mavwong, my mac mini sounded ok, not as good as my PC set up or the server set up with AO. I have not used a Aurender, but I heard a Auralic and that sounded very good with the Dave, hope that helped.


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## romaz

mavwong said:


>


 
  


sonic77 said:


> Yes I use a HD plex like Mavwong, yes I think it does sound a lot better then my cd transport, yes better then a PC set up, but that sounds pretty good too, I agree with Mavwong, my mac mini sounded ok, not as good as my PC set up or the server set up with AO. I have not used a Aurender, but I heard a Auralic and that sounded very good with the Dave, hope that helped.


 
 Thank you for that!  Based on what you're saying, with the DAVE, all sources can sound good once stripped of their jitter and noise but there are potentially varying degrees of "good" from one source to the next.  Would you say the differences are small or large?


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## lovethatsound

sonic77 said:


> Yes I use a HD plex like Mavwong, yes I think it does sound a lot better then my cd transport, yes better then a PC set up, but that sounds pretty good too, I agree with Mavwong, my mac mini sounded ok, not as good as my PC set up or the server set up with AO. I have not used a Aurender, but I heard a Auralic and that sounded very good with the Dave, hope that helped.


Hi m8
What cd transport were you using?


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## Beolab

romaz said:


> You have a highly optimized music server and I have been waiting for someone like you who uses a CAPS type device tweaked with AO, JPlay, etc. on the DAVE to comment.  I presume you've probably connected it to a good outboard linear PSU?  Can you comment whether your CAPS device sounds any better with the DAVE compared to your CD player and for that matter, a basic PC/Mac if you've tried it?  Even if they all sound good, are there unique sonic characteristics of each that shine through for you that allow you to identify them?
> 
> Having heard it for myself, I have bought into Rob's claim that the DAVE is immune to source jitter but I have a hard time believing that all sources will sound exactly the same.  Those that know me know I have done quite a bit of testing of music servers and without question, each server has it's own character and are amenable to tweaks.  For example, with something like an Aurender X100, the difference between using the X100 stock vs upgrading its integrated switching PSU to an outboard aftermarket LPSU can be very profound.  Bigger and tighter bass, smoother details and quieter noise floor and the difference isn't so subtle.  I have also come to appreciate the tonal character of something like an Auralic Aries vs an Aurender N10, a TotalDac d1-server, or CAD CAT server (ie the TotalDAC d1-server has rich tonal body, the Aurender N10 layers details exquisitely, etc) that allow me to single them out.   I struggle to see how these identifying characteristics just all go away and how something like a really good PSU on the source won't matter when paired with the DAVE but maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe a cheap $600 Auralic Aries Mini will sound as good as a $17,000 Aurender W20.  If this is true, then the DAVE isn't transparent to the source, it is transparent to the source file.




Have a friend Gabriel in the UK, and he received his DAVE ( Im still waiting for my ) 
last week and he have been testing the hole weekend with CAPS , Auralic Aries, and Macbook Pro , Iphone, and his conclusion was after switch btw input sources, it was very hard to hear small to any differences at all so i think its very close to the file than to the source as you mentioned. 

So if you buy a ultra expensive CAPS / Aurender , CAD , it does not play that big role any more guys !


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## Kamil21

Even if the Dave does isolate, the EMI can break through from the server into the power amplifier, hence effecting the sound. So I do not think the effect on sound quality of the music server can be nulled just by the Dave alone.


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## Kamil21

audionewbi said:


> This post deserve front page status.




First major DAVE review! But it is in German.

http://www.hifistatement.net/tests/item/1678-chord-dave-teil-1


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## TheAttorney

beolab said:


> ...and he have been testing the hole weekend with CAPS , Auralic Aries, and Macbook Pro , Iphone, and his conclusion was after switch btw input sources, it was very hard to hear small to any differences at all...
> So if you buy a ultra expensive CAPS / Aurender , CAD , it does not play that big role any more guys !


 
 It's an interesting observation, but the conclusion is not conclusive for me. I've never found that the concentrated swapping of lots of parameters is a good way of identifying small-but-significant differences between anything. The differences will be minimised at best, and downright confusing at worst. So I'll await more feedback (and try it myself in a couple of weeks).


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## ChordElectronics

*Hello Fellow Head-Fiers!*​  ​ Good news... We finally have our first review: http://www.hifistatement.net/tests/item/1678-chord-dave-teil-1?limitstart=0​


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## Mython

chordelectronics said:


> *Hello Fellow Head-Fiers!*​  ​ Good news... We finally have our first review: http://www.hifistatement.net/tests/item/1678-chord-dave-teil-1?limitstart=0​


 
  
  
  
 The final words of the review, Google-translate as:
  
 


> _STATEMENT_ _The Chord DAVE is a real exception-DAC, not only as regards his technique, which I will present to you in more detail in the second part of the article. So emotionally appealing or sometimes upsetting I have not been able to enjoy my music files. For me, the DAVE is simply the dream converter!_


 
  
  
 Congratulations, Rob, and I'm sure this is only the first in a long line of positive press reviews for DAVE.
  
 Can't wait to hear it for myself!


----------



## smial1966

*REVIEW - German to English translation using Google Translate:* 
  
 https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifistatement.net%2Ftests%2Fitem%2F1678-chord-dave-teil-1
  
 As an aside, translating entire reviews is easy using Google Translate, just copy and paste the articles URL into the left hand box, specify languages (in this case German to English) and click the `Translate' button.  
  
 Quote:


chordelectronics said:


> *Hello Fellow Head-Fiers!*​  ​ Good news... We finally have our first review: http://www.hifistatement.net/tests/item/1678-chord-dave-teil-1?limitstart=0​


----------



## Beolab

Good review! 

Nothing that we didn't already know , bit nice to read 

I wait for Simons review DAVE vs Select II that will be tha bomb ! 

But he struggle with it because if DAVE are equal or better than the SELECT II, then MSB will most likely not loan out any more MSB DAC's to him, so my recommendation was, he could just write his impressions without any winner or looser, so we will see whats the outcome will be.


----------



## Mavwong

My humble speaker system. Minimalist concept, see my signature for list of component.

Those who do caps like server with phil Audiophile Optimizer, try the following.

AO sound signature 1A, jplay xtreme profile 1hz 10sec 5000xtreme buffer, process lasso assign one cpu core to jplay, jriver (player) each, the rest other core. using i7 quad core 3.6ghz, disable all cpu hyperthread.


----------



## Sonic77

mavwong said:


> My humble speaker system. Minimalist concept, see my signature for list of component.
> 
> Those who do caps like server with phil Audiophile Optimizer, try the following.
> 
> AO sound signature 1A, jplay xtreme profile 1hz 10sec 5000xtreme buffer, process lasso assign one cpu core to jplay, jriver (player) each, the rest other core. using i7 quad core 3.6ghz, disable all cpu hyperthread.


 

 Ok I'll try 1A.
 I forgot my setting now, but I know different settings can affect the sound signature, which is actually good, because you can taylor your sound to your system. I tried one setting and it sounded horrible in my set up, but others loved it.


----------



## Hiyono

Just got back from Japan. Met up with my friends from USA which brought me my Dave. Got a new Furutech power cable. So far I am enjoying Dave and Dave+LG

Time for serious listening later this weekend.


----------



## JaZZ

hiyono said:


> Just got back from Japan. Met up with my friends from USA which brought me my Dave. Got a new Furutech power cable. So far I am enjoying Dave and Dave+LG
> 
> Time for serious listening later this weekend.


 
  
 I'm not sure if you deserve the DAVE. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 You know, Rob spent so much time and effort to minimize harmonic distortion and to recreate the shape of the original signal, and you go and add some nice distortions and colorations with your tube amp again... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Well, there's certainly a lot of «value» in your setup!


----------



## Hiyono

jazz said:


> I'm not sure if you deserve the DAVE.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 How very true.  Main reason I am using the LG tonight was since I got the MIT Vero cable and it was 4pin and I didn't have a converter.  Wanted to try the cable out and burn it in.


----------



## JaZZ

Sorry for being sarcastic!


----------



## lovethatsound

hiyono said:


> How very true.  Main reason I am using the LG tonight was since I got the MIT Vero cable and it was 4pin and I didn't have a converter.  Wanted to try the cable out and burn it in.


Don't worry m8,jaZZ users EQ,each to their own i say.Glad to see you got your Dave in one piece after it's long journey


----------



## Beolab

@Rob Watts 

What is your thoughts about this new "breakthrough" technology Dnote where you can send Digital signals direct to the voice coil on a normal speaker driver. 

http://www.trigence.com/#!technology/ca5s

What i don't understand is if you would like to amplify it if this also will be possible or if it just developed for ultra sensitive speaker coils. 

Very interesting nevertheless!


----------



## Beolab

*Hugo + w4s Remedy femto Re-clocker = remarkable combo! 
*



Read through romaz long interview with Rob, and everything sounds astonishing, it is just one question i have from the question about femto clocks jitter resistants topic question: 

I have a BlueSound Node II for convenience for my wife in the livingroom stereo. I have tried it together with my Hugo using Spidif and Toslink AQ Diamond cables. 

The sound is a bit noisy ( not so black background , bright, a bit digital with not so great musicality or dept. 
I think the Hugo sounds almost the same when i am using my Auralic Aries or CCK Ipad kit Hugo USB input . 

But!! When i connected the W4s Remedy Re-clocker ( battery powered) to the Hugo using a Crystek CCHD-957 femto clock for Spidif / Toslink the sound is very similar to my MSB Analog ! 

( Headphones direct connected to the Hugo, no amp in btw) 

(The Remedy Re-clocks all incoming signals like the MSB Analog does but the Remedy also up / down samples all signals to 96 khz, so it is not using Bit-perfect re-clocking)

But the sound is darker with a load of blackness and deeper detail and visceral bass and more smoother fluid musicality as a result! 
The bass guitar in Brian Bromberg My Bass almost glowing in the ears and are more fluid with a greater dept and is much smoother. 
= Lower jitter and lower RF noise floor from what Rob describes it. 

There is more difference in the sound and more obviously with the Remedy, than if you disconnect the Hugo and just use the crappy BlueSound source directly connected to my amp. 

So what i don't understand is if the Hugo are almost jitter resistant in the DLL , how come that i can hear a huge SQ increase if femto is not any good with jitter per cycle when It sounds like totally different dac SQ wise? 

I want a good answer on this would be very interesting to hear and read more about. 

So i will absolutely try the Remedy for my DAVE also and see if i can hear any diffrence, most likely i will not, but on the Hugo it is a huge difference like 30% i would say at least.


----------



## Jawed

The difference may not be due to jitter, but galvanic isolation?


----------



## Beolab

jawed said:


> The difference may not be due to jitter, but galvanic isolation?




For Toslink you don't not need galvanic isolation, because it is light transported in fibre optics without grounding, and i don't think it makes the sound almost 30% better/different either, so i think its the Remedy that does the magic in combination with Hugo, but i just want to know how this is possible and thats why i was referring to this post by Rob about femto clocks jitter and other problems. So i find it hard to why im hearing so much difference if the Hugo on the paper is already so good and can not be improved buy any femto re-clocker, thats my question to Rob. 

Here is the quoting: 

Some years back a femto clock became available, and I was very excited about using it as it had a third of the cycle to cycle jitter of the crystal oscillators we were using. So I plugged it in, and listened to it. Unexpectedly, it sounded brighter and harder - completely the opposite of all the times I have listened to lower jitter. When you lower jitter levels in the master clock, it sounds smoother and warmer and more natural.

So I did some careful measurements, and I could see some problems.

The noise floor was OK, the same as before, and all the usual measurements were the same. But you could see more fringing on the fundamental, and this was quite apparent. Now when you do a FFT of say a 1 kHz sine wave, in an ideal world you would see the tone at 1 kHz and each frequency bucket away the output would be the systems noise floor. That is, you get a sharp single line representing the tone. But with a real FFT, you get smearing of the tone, and this is due to the windowing function employed by the FFT and jitter problems within the ADC, so instead of a single line you get a number of lines with the edges tailing of into the noise. This is known as side lobes or fringing. Now one normally calibrates the FFT and the instrument so you know what the ideal should be. Now with a DAC that has low frequency jitter, you get more fringing. Now I have spent many years on jitter and eliminating the effects of it on sound quality, and I know that fringing is highly audible, as I have done many listening tests on it. What is curious, is that it sounds exactly like noise floor modulation - so reduce fringing is the same as reducing noise floor modulation - they both subjectively sound smoother and darker with less edge and hardness.

So a clock that had lower cycle to cycle jitter actually had much worse low frequency jitter, and it was the low frequency jitter that was causing the problem and this had serious sound quality consequences. So a simple headline statement of low jitter is meaningless. But actually the problem is very much more complex than this.

What is poorly understood is that DAC architectures can tolerate vastly different levels of master clock jitter, and this is way more important than the headline oscillator jitter number. I will give you a few examples:


----------



## analogmusic

tube amp with DAVE? seriously?


----------



## Jawed

Whoops, should have gone to bed rather than posting...

Well anyway, intrigued about the result of Remedy + DAVE.


----------



## Beolab

jawed said:


> Whoops, should have gone to bed rather than posting...
> 
> Well anyway, intrigued about the result of Remedy + DAVE.




Yes, this will be very interesting to hear, i expect my DAVE in 2 weeks. 

Sleep tight Zzzzz...


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> *Hugo + w4s Remedy femto Re-clocker = remarkable combo!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I believe Rob's comments on Femto clocks relate to DACs and not necessarily to source components or external devices like the Remedy.  In music servers, my experience has been that the quality of the clock can make a difference although this probably doesn't apply when those servers are connected to the DAVE or Mojo.  This was definitely the case with my TotalDac.  
  
 Despite Rob's comments that all of his DACs are resistant to jitter, here is his specific response to me:  "Source jitter has been eliminated on all of my DAC's from Mojo upwards".  This suggests that the jitter resistance of the Mojo and DAVE are at a different level compared to his older DACs like the Hugo and it may explain why something like the Remedy is helpful with the Hugo.  To my ears, the Mojo plays at a much higher level than the Hugo and there is rumor that the Hugo will soon be discontinued as a result.


----------



## bmichels

beolab said:


> *Hugo + w4s Remedy femto Re-clocker = remarkable combo!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Very interesting but...
  
 If MOJO is really immude to jitter (as opposed to HUGO), then may be it will be a better solution to buy a MOJO to replace our HUGO rather than buying a W4s Remedy to add to the HUGO ?


----------



## romaz

bmichels said:


> Very interesting but...
> 
> If MOJO is really immude to jitter (as opposed to HUGO), then may be it will be a better solution to buy a MOJO to replace our HUGO rather than buying a W4s Remedy to add to the HUGO ?




Personally, this is how I would approach it.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> Personally, this is how I would approach it.




Yes if it is immune yes..


----------



## StryGR

For home stereo setup, Hugo is much more open and 3D in sound compared to Mojo.
  
 Source? Raspberry Pi2 (with 5 A LPS) running Moode.


----------



## Sonic77

I have yet to run the Mojo in my main set up as a dac, although I have used the Hugo in my main system regularly. Mainly because I don't have the rca conversion connection.


----------



## romaz

strygr said:


> For home stereo setup, Hugo is much more open and 3D in sound compared to Mojo.
> 
> Source? Raspberry Pi2 (with 5 A LPS) running Moode.


 
 As we know, Mojo is designed as a portable DAC for headphone use.  It can be used for 2 channel but the SQ is then significantly impacted by the quality of the cabling used and this type of cabling (3.5 mm to RCA) has limitations.


----------



## Beolab

sonic77 said:


> I have yet to run the Mojo in my main set up as a dac, although I have used the Hugo in my main system regularly. Mainly because I don't have the rca conversion connection.




I use know my Hugo to my Active speakers in the livingroom with Cardas SLVR + 8 pure silver conducters with Teflon screening, it is perfect, but when i connected the Remedy, its like a new DAC, much more relaxed and smoother, with great dept 

Wating for Chords second batch will start this week, so my DAVE can arrive soon


----------



## ecwl

I see we are veering off Dave discussion but that's probably because some of us are just waiting for DAVE and others are happily listening to DAVE and don't have much more to say...
  
 So based on what I've read in this forum about Dave and some of the other comments Rob Watts made about Hugo and Mojo, this is my suspicion. Notice how Chord has never mentioned the tap length of Mojo. I suspect this is because Mojo has <26,000 in tap length. I think Rob Watts decided to use the FPGA power to optimize for different things in the Mojo so Hugo and Mojo would sound different. Hugo supposedly has 16fs WTA oversampling filter and then eventually getting to 2048fs linear interpolation oversampling filter and 26000 taps and 5th order noise shaper. Dave supposedly has 256fs WTA oversampling filter and then eventually getting to 2048fs linear interpolation oversampling filter and 164000 taps and 17th order noise shaper. I suspect Mojo has say 32fs/64fs oversampling filter, <<26,000 taps (say 15,000 taps) and 6th or 7th order noise shaper. Rob Watts already said that the noise shaper can alter the noise floor and we know Mojo has a lower noise floor than Hugo. He also said that lowering the noise floor sometimes makes the sound too warm and soft but he can fix that by increasing the oversampling with WTA filters. But something's got to give if you're devoting your FPGA to do these tasks and obviously, that would have to be the tap length. Unfortunately, since Chord marketing has been focusing on tap length, they can't possibly market Mojo as having a lower tap length for a different smoother (possibly better) sound... Obviously, there are other design differences between the two DACs so I'm just commenting on the computation part...
  
 As for source jitter, I thought Rob Watts said that all his DACs are immune to source-jitter, as are most DACs. The issue is that RF noise and correlated current/signal/ground noise can still get through into the DAC so it generates internal jitter at the DAC level and has nothing to do with removing jitter from the incoming source. It's hard to know if Hugo or Mojo or Dave are better with jitter one way or another as there are so many factors at play. What I did wonder with respect to W4S remedy is that the Remedy is ultimately not a bit-perfect solution. So most of the time, signals are being upsampled from 44kHz to 96kHz using non-WTA algorithm and probably insufficient tap length. The femto-clock may improve timing but if most DACs are immune to source jitter, the entire Remedy+femto-clock design is mostly reducing RF noise and correlated current/signal noise. Hence, I think we are dealing with many different signal changes from the Remedy+femto-clock that we can't isolate the sonic change necessarily to the femto-clock. Whether it sounds better or not is yet another matter. As long as one enjoys the sound, why not use it?


----------



## Beolab

ecwl said:


> I see we are veering off Dave discussion but that's probably because some of us are just waiting for DAVE and others are happily listening to DAVE and don't have much more to say...
> 
> So based on what I've read in this forum about Dave and some of the other comments Rob Watts made about Hugo and Mojo, this is my suspicion. Notice how Chord has never mentioned the tap length of Mojo. I suspect this is because Mojo has <26,000 in tap length. I think Rob Watts decided to use the FPGA power to optimize for different things in the Mojo so Hugo and Mojo would sound different. Hugo supposedly has 16fs WTA oversampling filter and then eventually getting to 2048fs linear interpolation oversampling filter and 26000 taps and 5th order noise shaper. Dave supposedly has 256fs WTA oversampling filter and then eventually getting to 2048fs linear interpolation oversampling filter and 164000 taps and 17th order noise shaper. I suspect Mojo has say 32fs/64fs oversampling filter, <<26,000 taps (say 15,000 taps) and 6th or 7th order noise shaper. Rob Watts already said that the noise shaper can alter the noise floor and we know Mojo has a lower noise floor than Hugo. He also said that lowering the noise floor sometimes makes the sound too warm and soft but he can fix that by increasing the oversampling with WTA filters. But something's got to give if you're devoting your FPGA to do these tasks and obviously, that would have to be the tap length. Unfortunately, since Chord marketing has been focusing on tap length, they can't possibly market Mojo as having a lower tap length for a different smoother (possibly better) sound... Obviously, there are other design differences between the two DACs so I'm just commenting on the computation part...
> 
> As for source jitter, I thought Rob Watts said that all his DACs are immune to source-jitter, as are most DACs. The issue is that RF noise and correlated current/signal/ground noise can still get through into the DAC so it generates internal jitter at the DAC level and has nothing to do with removing jitter from the incoming source. It's hard to know if Hugo or Mojo or Dave are better with jitter one way or another as there are so many factors at play. What I did wonder with respect to W4S remedy is that the Remedy is ultimately not a bit-perfect solution. So most of the time, signals are being upsampled from 44kHz to 96kHz using non-WTA algorithm and probably insufficient tap length. The femto-clock may improve timing but if most DACs are immune to source jitter, the entire Remedy+femto-clock design is mostly reducing RF noise and correlated current/signal noise. Hence, I think we are dealing with many different signal changes from the Remedy+femto-clock that we can't isolate the sonic change necessarily to the femto-clock. Whether it sounds better or not is yet another matter. As long as one enjoys the sound, why not use it?




I think you are on the right track! 

The Mojo have the newer FPGA Xing 7 and Hugo got version 6 so most likely Rob had more processing power on tap so it most likely got 26k-45k taps or more is my estimation also, but Chord are afraid to mention this because then the Hugo would drop in selling volumes, because most of the Chord buyers are stirring them blind on the Tap rate figure. ( Interpolating filter rate) 

In this interwiev https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3e7SRXP3RHI from CES 2016, Rob mentions 44 DSP cores in Mojo and the Dave got 166 cores with 166.000 taps = around 
45.000 taps in the Mojo perhaps! 





Hugo + Remedy combo: 

Yes everyone with a Hugo should try it out with an Remedy, its like a supercharger on a V8 engine no question about it, but i will most likely not need it with DAVE, but i will do some serious listening with it connected and see if i can hear any improvement!


----------



## Christer

beolab said:


> I think you are on the right track!
> 
> The Mojo have the newer FPGA Xing 7 and Hugo got version 6 so most likely Rob had more processing power on tap so it most likely got 26k-45k taps or more is my estimation also, but Chord are afraid to mention this because then the Hugo would drop in selling volumes, because most of the Chord buyers are stirring them blind on the Tap rate figure. ( Interpolating filter rate)
> 
> ...


 

 Hmm, this is getting interesting. If i am not completely wrong Rob himself has consistently stated the great importance of tap length for improved SQ?
 And if Mojo has almost twice the tap length of Hugo combined with a lower noise floor and immunity to jitter, I am led to  suspect that it is indeed a better more accurate headphone DAC than Hugo.
 I for one will definitely compare the two with  acoustic music only, reference material asap.
 Then again if Remedy  or the  Intona galvanic  isolator or some other problem solving  product will REALLY improve Hugo via speakers at home. I will try those too .
 But in theory I find it difficult to believe that downsampling say 24/192 or DXD to 24/96 as the Remedy obviously does, can really improve SQ?
 But of course I am still very interested to hear if there is no going back to either, after having auditioned DAVE.


----------



## jarnopp

beolab said:


> I think you are on the right track!
> 
> The Mojo have the newer FPGA Xing 7 and Hugo got version 6 so most likely Rob had more processing power on tap so it most likely got 26k-45k taps or more is my estimation also, but Chord are afraid to mention this because then the Hugo would drop in selling volumes, because most of the Chord buyers are stirring them blind on the Tap rate figure. ( Interpolating filter rate)
> 
> ...




Hugo uses the Spartan-6 LX9 (2, actually, one for the inputs). Not being an engineer, I don't know what all the specs mean, but that FPGA has 9152 login cells, 16 DSP slices, and maximum I/O of 200. 

Mojo uses the Artix-7 A15T which has 33,280 logic cells, 90 DSP slices, and max I/O of 250. Only one chip perhaps, so it may be doing more duty in the Mojo. 

Anyone know which chip(s) in DAVE?

Interesting reading:
https://forums.xilinx.com/t5/Xcell-Daily-Blog/Battery-powered-Chord-Hugo-mobile-DAC-headphone-amp-implements/ba-p/541775

http://theproaudiowebblog.com/rob-watts-interview.html

Enjoying my Mojo but someday...DAVE!


----------



## audiobill

DAVE uses the LX75 version of the Spartan 6 FPGA.


----------



## jarnopp

audiobill said:


> DAVE uses the LX75 version of the Spartan 6 FPGA.




Thanks. That's got 75k logic cells and 3GB of memory, so about 8x as powerful as the Hugo chip.

Edit: also, 132 DSP slices. But if Dave uses more than one FPGA, then the 166 cores mentioned by @Beolab could be.


----------



## Rob Watts

Dave has one FPGA, the 34 extra cores are custom coded using FPGA fabric (using gates to make DSP cores) - so 132 DSP slices plus 34 fabric = 166.
  
 All the DAC's - Mojo, 2 Qute, Hugo, Hugo TT and Dave have identical source jitter rejection, that is the DAC eliminates it. Any SQ differences in sources is not down to jitter but source RF noise and correlated noise. The galvanic isolation (USB and optical) on Dave eliminates these problems - as far as the DAC is concerned - too.
  
 Rob


----------



## Pokemonn

Rob...let me ask straight question. Is Mojo better than Hugo technically?? (aside cross feed function)


----------



## analogmusic

According to what I have read from the slides on the Mojo presentation, Hugo, 2qute and Mojo share almost identical code 
  
 Doesnt matter how many more gates the mojo has, if it is running the same code as Hugo


----------



## Pokemonn

i guess Mojo is little different from Hugo..
  
  
  
  
_You say you tuned the Mojo to have a smoother sound, was this in order to make it more forgiving of real world formats like MP3?_

Yes I wanted it smoother and warmer, not so much with AAC or MP3, but more because it is likely to be partnered with harder sounding headphones.

http://www.the-ear.net/how-to/rob-watts-chord-mojo-tech


----------



## jarnopp

rob watts said:


> Dave has one FPGA, the 34 extra cores are custom coded using FPGA fabric (using gates to make DSP cores) - so 132 DSP slices plus 34 fabric = 166.
> 
> All the DAC's - Mojo, 2 Qute, Hugo, Hugo TT and Dave have identical source jitter rejection, that is the DAC eliminates it. Any SQ differences in sources is not down to jitter but source RF noise and correlated noise. The galvanic isolation (USB and optical) on Dave eliminates these problems - as far as the DAC is concerned - too.
> 
> Rob




Thanks, Rob! Your participation here is so valuable. I think asking which of your children is your favorite is not exactly fair... But, you have said lowering the noise floor results in a warmer sound and also the mojo is tuned warmer than Hugo....so I may just infer from there. Also, the better unit is the one that works for you (sound, features, price).


----------



## Christer

pokemonn said:


> Rob...let me straight question. Is Mojo better than Hugo??


 

 I would like a straight answer to the same question too.
 I am not at all interested  whether it sounds "better" or more forgiving via mp3 and other compromised formats or bad headphones.
 You have  earlier said that your aim is always  maximum accuracy and transparence. But to me judging from the quote here, it seems like you might have "tuned" the sound of Mojo according to compromised and low res formats and headphones?
 I want to know if it is actually BETTER and  more accurate  and transparent,using  high res and best most naturally and realistically  recorded acoustic music  material and played back  via the highest quality headphones like HD800 and planars and other true  highend headphones.
 And also if it can be connected to a really  high quality hifi system with an SQ better than Hugo or not?
 I know it plays DSD 256 which Hugo does not. I know you find DSD 64 a fundamentally compromised format. What about DSD 256 or 512?
 Cheers Chris


----------



## Kamil21

christer said:


> I would like a straight answer to the same question too.
> I am not at all interested  whether it sounds "better" or more forgiving via mp3 and other compromised formats or bad headphones.
> You have  earlier said that your aim is always  maximum accuracy and transparence. But to me judging from the quote here, it seems like you might have "tuned" the sound of Mojo according to compromised and low res formats and headphones?
> I want to know if it is actually BETTER and  more accurate  and transparent,using  high res and best most naturally and realistically  recorded acoustic music  material and played back  via the highest quality headphones like HD800 and planars and other true  highend headphones.
> ...




Is a plum better than a cherry? Hmm. I am selling my Hugo for a Mojo because the Mojo is more convenient to carry around, but I will miss its direct RCA plug connectivity to my home system and my uber expensive cables. But if price were a factor.. Well..


----------



## analogmusic

I believe these differences are due to Hugo and Mugo having slightly different output transistors and different batteries 
 Other than that, I think they run the same code !


----------



## StryGR

But what about the tap count in Mojo (with respect to Hugo)?
  
 Will we ever have an answer on that?
  
 Mr. Rob?


----------



## Pokemonn

and that was slightly off topic..


----------



## SamS59

jarnopp said:


> Hugo uses the Spartan-6 LX9 (2, actually, one for the inputs). Not being an engineer, I don't know what all the specs mean, but that FPGA has 9152 login cells, 16 DSP slices, and maximum I/O of 200.
> 
> Mojo uses the Artix-7 A15T which has 33,280 logic cells, 90 DSP slices, and max I/O of 250. Only one chip perhaps, so it may be doing more duty in the Mojo.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Interesting that the conversation has touched on the Xilinx chips used in the Chord DACs.  Looking at their website they are introducing a Spartan - 7. 
  
http://press.xilinx.com/2015-11-19-Xilinx-Announces-the-Spartan-7-FPGA-Family
  
 An excerpt reads:
  
_The Spartan-7 FPGA family will deliver high I/O ratios in small form factor packages, critical for cost-sensitive markets. The family will provide up to 4X price-performance-per-watt improvement over previous generations for flexible connectivity, interface bridging, and companion chip functionality._
  
 I wonder if Rob might be looking at this, assuming it is in fact an improvement over the Spartan-6 for the next Generation of DACs?  
  
 Love my Hugo by the way Rob and thanks for all the insight on these pages.


----------



## Christer

analogmusic said:


> I believe these differences are due to Hugo and Mugo having slightly different output transistors and different batteries
> Other than that, I think they run the same code !


 

 Advertising is advertising of course. But according to the product page for Mojo here in Malaysia  it is actually presented as "The ultimate headphone DAC in the world!"
 And yes, they sell Hugo as well here.
 With a bit of luck I will get to hear both Mojo and Dave for the first time and comparing them to my Hugo  here in KL tomorrow.
 How they will  compare to Mahler's ninth at live rehearsals earier  today and  the concert tomorrow night ? Well that is another matter. But I am certainly  interested in getting the closest approach to the real sound as possible both via speakars at home and headphones when travelling.


----------



## PANURUS

romaz said:


> As we know, Mojo is designed as a portable DAC for headphone use.  It can be used for 2 channel but the SQ is then significantly impacted by the quality of the cabling used and this type of cabling (3.5 mm to RCA) has limitations.


 
 A better way is to use a converter from 2.5mm minijack to RCA ( Audioquest) and 2 cables RCA to RCA.
  
 I use  WIREWORLD gold eclipse 7 cables 0.5 m long.  Great result.


----------



## PANURUS

I have 2 monoblock Pass labs 260.5 and one Pass Labs XC10.
 Actually I use audioquest cable between them. My set up is well balanced with Mojo and WIREWORLD gold eclipse 7
  
 For my Dave, i am thinking about to use the same quality : WIREWORLD gold eclipse 7, XLR or RCA cables.
 Or maybe the Platinum ones. So far better with Mojo but the price is twice.
  
 Pass labs explains XLR is the best for the 260.5.
 I read that XLR is better than RCA again RF noise.
 Mr Watts explains RCA is better for Dave.
  
 Can somebody gives me more technical explainations?
  
 Thank you
  
 Jean


----------



## JaZZ

panurus said:


> Pass labs explains XLR is the best for the 260.5.
> I read that XLR is better than RCA again RF noise.
> Mr Watts explains RCA is better for Dave.
> 
> Can somebody gives me more technical explainations?


 
  
 Salut Jean
  
 According to Rob Watts the XLR outputs call for a more complex signal path which is detrimental to the sound in view of DAVE's single-ended DAC architecture and its deliberately simple output stage.
  
 On the other hand, noise rejection will theoretically be better with XLR connection. Probably the only way to know what counts more is trying both variants. Personally I'm leaning towards single-ended – in the interest of simplicity and signal accuracy.


----------



## TomGi

I think that the xlr output are balanced electronically. So there are more electronic components on the audio signal path as resistors, op amps and capacitors. I tested the TT and the balanced outputs are less transparent than the unbalanced output.


----------



## bmichels

sams59 said:


> _The Spartan-7 FPGA family will deliver high I/O ratios in small form factor packages, critical for cost-sensitive markets. The family will provide up to 4X price-performance-per-watt improvement over previous generations for flexible connectivity, interface bridging, and companion chip functionality._
> 
> I wonder if Rob might be looking at this,


 
  
  
 please, make us an ...HUGO V2 ....


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Dave has one FPGA, the 34 extra cores are custom coded using FPGA fabric (using gates to make DSP cores) - so 132 DSP slices plus 34 fabric = 166.
> 
> All the DAC's - Mojo, 2 Qute, Hugo, Hugo TT and Dave have identical source jitter rejection, that is the DAC eliminates it. Any SQ differences in sources is not down to jitter but source RF noise and correlated noise. The galvanic isolation (USB and optical) on Dave eliminates these problems - as far as the DAC is concerned - too.
> 
> Rob




Hi Rob! 

The most interesting thing is that the source i have used when i have tried the Hugo + W4s Remedy is Optical only, so this is "galvanic" isolated and nevertheless it is a huge step up in SQ performance. 
It gets much smoother, deeper , more fluid with less brightness, darker with greater detail than without the Remedy Re-clocker. 

So this is strange because if the Hugo / DAVE / Qute2 / Mojo are jitter resistant / immune and we are using optical cable so no RF are injected in the signal path, then i have no clue left on how the sound can get so much better / improved ?


----------



## isquirrel

Joining in on this discussion now, have a new Mojo that was dropped off this morning. Cutting out the expletives etc when I _ _first turned this thing on except to say it is incredible. 1st piece of music I listened to was Copland, fanfare for the Common Man through LCD-4's with DHC cables. Bit of overkill using an Aurender W20 as the source via Optical - Wow, what weight and texture from the drums. Have to run some more experiments with this thing but makes me wonder whats in store when the DAVE arrives late next week!
  
 NO doubt IMHO that it sounds substantially better than the Hugo & TT (have had both). Being brand new with zero hours and using crappy connectors, there is a lot more to come. 
  
 Bring on the DAVE !
  
 Edit - about to try it out on the wife while its hidden away. This is going to be fun !


----------



## jarnopp

isquirrel said:


> Edit - about to try it out on the wife while its hidden away. This is going to be fun !



My wife doesn't believe me...she wants to hear your wife say "this is fun!"


----------



## ecwl

I don't think you're supposed to be charging the Mojo while playing it. Just as the USB is not galvanically isolated, I presume the act of charging it is going to increase the amount of RF that gets into the Mojo.


----------



## isquirrel

jarnopp said:


> My wife doesn't believe me...she wants to hear your wife say "this is fun!"


 

 Well my wife thinks it sounds "fabulous and is far better than her Hugo" that to me sounds like fun, might help if you bought her one


----------



## Beolab

isquirrel said:


> Going in on this discussion now, have a new Mojo that was dropped off this morning. Cutting out the expletives etc this thing is incredible. 1st piece of music I listened to was Copland, fanfare for the Common Man through LCD-4's with DHC cables. Bit of overkill using an Aurender W20 as the source via Optical - Wow. Have to run some more experiments with this thing but makes me wonder whats in store when the DAVE arrives late next week!
> 
> NO doubt IMHO that it sounds substantially better than the Hugo & TT (have had both). Being brand new with zero hours and using crappy connectors, there is a lot more to come.
> 
> ...




This is very funny Simon! 

I was also at my dealers place today, and picked up a Mojo! 
And it sounds so good, so i cant belive my ears in comparison to what the Hugo sounded, it was way to briight without the Remedy and so on, but this i pure magic ! 

I have only connect it to my Active speakers in the livingroom for a brief test, but my wife said she thaught it sounded les bright and metallic, with greater dept was her first impression!  

I think this will be a perfect match with JPS Diana when they are released


----------



## jarnopp

isquirrel said:


> Well my wife thinks it sounds "fabulous and is far better than her Hugo" that to me sounds like fun, might help if you bought her one :wink_face:




I could buy her a DAVE but sure she would kill me, whether it was mine or hers!


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> Hi Rob!
> 
> The most interesting thing is that the source i have used when i have tried the Hugo + W4s Remedy is Optical only, so this is "galvanic" isolated and nevertheless it is a huge step up in SQ performance.
> It gets much smoother, deeper , more fluid with less brightness, darker with greater detail than without the Remedy Re-clocker.
> ...


 
 It appears that the Remedy Re-clocker is a sample rate converter. It converts everything to 96k (or factory adjusted to another sample rate). It uses a standard chip for sample rate conversion.
  
 Conventional sample rate converters generate large amounts of THD and noise, in particular slew related noise floor modulation and they sound hard and aggressive as a consequence. Also they completely destroy the timing of transients, as the interpolation filters are very simple.
  
 Not a good idea at all with my DAC's. 
  
 Rob


----------



## Pokemonn

Rob,　Thank you very much for the info!
 I have a question.
 I have a sample/bit up converter  Behringer SRC2496 in my chain (before DEQ2496).
 Is word length up conversion(from 16bit to 24bit) also not good idea for your DACs(Mojo/Hugo/Dave)?


----------



## Skampmeister

I think people can't come to grips with not using add ons that one uses with other DACs. 

If the designer says you don't need anything, how about people just trust him.


----------



## Rob Watts

Anything that changes the data is a very bad idea I am afraid.
  
 Rob


----------



## Pokemonn

Thank you very much Rob! I will remove SRC2496. Thank you.


----------



## Christer

rob watts said:


> It appears that the Remedy Re-clocker is a sample rate converter. It converts everything to 96k (or factory adjusted to another sample rate). It uses a standard chip for sample rate conversion.
> 
> Conventional sample rate converters generate large amounts of THD and noise, in particular slew related noise floor modulation and they sound hard and aggressive as a consequence. Also they completely destroy the timing of transients, as the interpolation filters are very simple.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks.Well that limits my  own query to whether the German Intona galvanic isolator would be a good idea with Hugo or not.
 But then again I am getting more and more keen to actually audition both  Mojo and Dave.
 Especially with  the recent input here coming from someone who listens to classical ,Copland,and has compared his Hugo to a new Mojo. Moreover if his wife also agrees that Mojo sounds better I suspect that smoother in this case may not be a compromise at all, but rather an improvement in SQ over Hugo.
 Women's high frequency  hearing is also  generally less prone to having been damaged by far too loud pop and rock music than most men's.
  
 Unfortunately it turned out that the shop here in KL which might have both is way out  in the suburbs of KL and today Thaipusam a big  Hindu festival is taking place here clogging traffic out of town I have heard. So I will have to wait until I get to Singapore again soon and  where I have already held a Mojo in my hand but assumed my  Hugo would be better and didn,'t bother to listen to it when I auditioned HE 1000 the first time. 
 My mistake maybe?


----------



## romaz

I think it's clear Rob won't get involved in any Mojo vs Hugo debate nor do I think it's necessary. We can each make up our own minds on this one. As for a Hugo v2, personally, I think the Mojo is it. To me, it's not really even close which one I like better, at least with headphones. As for those who prefer the Hugo, well, that's a pretty nice problem for Chord to have. They win both ways. At the same time, if I owned a Hugo and then found that the Mojo sounded better, shelling out another $600 for a Mojo wouldn't be the worst thing that could happen. I could easily sell my Hugo and buy 2 Mojos (one for the wife).

I'm sure Chord, in their wisdom, contemplated the likelihood that the Mojo would impact future sales of the Hugo which is why I believe there may be weight to the rumor that the future of the Hugo could be in question, but more importantly, I'm sure Chord also considered the likelihood that the Mojo would impact the sales of many other DACs which is probably a more than acceptable trade off for them. I have a colleague who considers his new Mojo more to his liking than the MSB Analog he already owns.

In some ways, given the asking price for the Mojo, I consider it more remarkable than the DAVE.


----------



## Christer

romaz said:


> I think it's clear Rob won't get involved in any Mojo vs Hugo debate nor do I think it's necessary. We can each make up our own minds on this one. As for a Hugo v2, personally, I think the Mojo is it. To me, it's not really even close which one I like better, at least with headphones. As for those who prefer the Hugo, well, that's a pretty nice problem for Chord to have. They win both ways. At the same time, if I owned a Hugo and then found that the Mojo sounded better, shelling out another $600 for a Mojo wouldn't be the worst thing that could happen. I could easily sell my Hugo and buy 2 Mojos (one for the wife).
> 
> I'm sure Chord, in their wisdom, contemplated the likelihood that the Mojo would impact future sales of the Hugo which is why I believe there may be weight to the rumor that the future of the Hugo could be in question, but more importantly, I'm sure Chord also considered the likelihood that the Mojo would probably impact the sales of many other DACs which is probably a more than acceptable trade off for them. I have a colleague who considers his new Mojo more to his liking than the MSB Analog he already owns.
> 
> In some ways, given the asking price for the Mojo, I consider it more remarkable than the DAVE.


 

 Wise words romaz.
 The only one who can decide if ,a is better than b, is of course oneself.
 But it seems the evidence is building up in the suspected direction even without any input from Rob.
  
 And frankly however good my Hugo still sounds via headphones it is still a far cry from  a real orchestra playing live in a good hall.I will take some placebo for the time being, Mahler's 9th live tonight.


----------



## Pokemonn

Rob has already said Mojo's real competitors are $100k DACs of other manufactures.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post/7155#post_12175714


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> It appears that the Remedy Re-clocker is a sample rate converter. It converts everything to 96k (or factory adjusted to another sample rate). It uses a standard chip for sample rate conversion.
> 
> Conventional sample rate converters generate large amounts of THD and noise, in particular slew related noise floor modulation and they sound hard and aggressive as a consequence. Also they completely destroy the timing of transients, as the interpolation filters are very simple.
> 
> ...




Im sure this is a fact in theory if you measure it maybe , but in reality it sound like magic, so don't hesitate to order one and try it out, because its a great combo! 

Many times a speaker or device can measure really poor but sound amazing, so good measuring is nice, bit it is the ears that got the final judgement, and i believe i have very good and trained HiFi hearing  

Will test the Remedy with my Mojo tonight and the DAVE later when i receive it


----------



## bmichels

beolab said:


> Will test the Remedy with my Mojo tonight and the DAVE later when i receive it


 
  
 It will indeed be VERY interesting to know if the Remedy is also useful with the MOJO or if it is needed only with HUGO.


----------



## Beolab

bmichels said:


> It will indeed be VERY interesting to know if the Remedy is also useful with the MOJO or if it is needed only with HUGO.


 
  
  
 I try it out later tonight, and post my findings


----------



## bmichels

beolab said:


>


 
 thanks.  Since I have now booth HUGO and MOJO I will be very interested to hear your finding.


----------



## zekioflo

beolab said:


>


 
 I am interested too about the Remedy!


----------



## lovethatsound

beolab said:


> Im sure this is a fact in theory if you measure it maybe , but in reality it sound like magic, so don't hesitate to order one and try it out, because its a great combo!
> 
> Many times a speaker or device can measure really poor but sound amazing, so good measuring is nice, bit it is the ears that got the final judgement, and i believe i have very good and trained HiFi hearing
> 
> Will test the Remedy with my Mojo tonight and the DAVE later when i receive it


You certainly won't need a Remedy with the Dave.The truth of the matter is that the Dave is the best Dac I've ever heard,whether you're listening,with speakers,it's own headphone amp or a different headphone amp,you'll hear when you get one.This is my END game DAC.
PS ROB please don't make any more LOL


----------



## Beolab

lovethatsound said:


> You certainly won't need a Remedy with the Dave.The truth of the matter is that the Dave is the best Dac I've ever heard,whether you're listening,with speakers,it's own headphone amp or a different headphone amp,you'll hear when you get one.This is my END game DAC.
> PS ROB please don't make any more LOL




Haha i hope so to!
 The DAVE will be my end game dac for a couple of years, he can only make a update for the native MQA playback in 2 years or so when the format havs established. 

 But other than that i don't think he need to make any new better dacś than the DAVE in 5-6 years time i hope!

Otherwise i have to eat oatmeal for the next ten years or so...


----------



## Beolab

bmichels said:


> thanks.  Since I have now booth HUGO and MOJO I will be very interested to hear your finding.








If i just had a couple of % from each sold Remedy from W4s, then this could have bin a nice extra income! , because after a little listening, and this is only a short listening i can distinguish that the sound get richer, and smoother almost like the sound gets slower because you hear every single tone with more blackness around it. More solid / fluid / analog and Magical is the best words. You think that the product that reproduce this sound most at least weigh 20kg and not 80 grams  

Two tracks you can here this clearly with is Boz Scaggs "Thanks to you" and 
Brian Bromberg: "My Bass" . Everything get more fluid and all veil and small high pitched brightness noise disappear in a elegant way. 


The Mojo sounds better than the Hugo, but this is something else, and will come back with an more in dept impression later on.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> I think it's clear Rob won't get involved in any Mojo vs Hugo debate nor do I think it's necessary. We can each make up our own minds on this one. As for a Hugo v2, personally, I think the Mojo is it. To me, it's not really even close which one I like better, at least with headphones. As for those who prefer the Hugo, well, that's a pretty nice problem for Chord to have. They win both ways. At the same time, if I owned a Hugo and then found that the Mojo sounded better, shelling out another $600 for a Mojo wouldn't be the worst thing that could happen. I could easily sell my Hugo and buy 2 Mojos (one for the wife).
> 
> I'm sure Chord, in their wisdom, contemplated the likelihood that the Mojo would impact future sales of the Hugo which is why I believe there may be weight to the rumor that the future of the Hugo could be in question, but more importantly, I'm sure Chord also considered the likelihood that the Mojo would impact the sales of many other DACs which is probably a more than acceptable trade off for them. I have a colleague who considers his new Mojo more to his liking than the MSB Analog he already owns.
> 
> In some ways, given the asking price for the Mojo, I consider it more remarkable than the DAVE.




I also got the MSB Analog and find my Hugo+Remedy to sound equal if not even greater than the analog, and now with the Mojo this is a couple of steps up on the ladder. 

So i will from now one only use the Analog as a lunch table or heat distinguisher for my laptop! 

When even Simon finds out that Mahler sounds almost as good on the Mojo as on his $200.000 MSB / Woo rig, then i get philosophical almost, and think that it most be just someone hide somewhere and play with us ??  

Where should the evolution stop, this is crazy, when a small cheap "stack of cards" made of metal can surpass a $ 10.000 MSB Analog DAC, or even a Select almost! (At least if we look at performance gained to every spend dollar !)

This thing got better spec and SQ: 



Than this rig:


----------



## bigfatpaulie

I have a sincere question about Chord and their DAC’s.  I’m not trying to get anyone upset or be confrontational.  I am asking as someone who is genuinely interested in DAVE but I am horribly confused about something.
  
 I remember when the Hugo first hit the market.  On Head-Fi it was quickly proclaimed as the greatest DAC on Earth – seemingly at the time same the Yggdrasil was making the same claim (we’ve all seen the famous DAC comparison chart).  Now the Mojo hits the market and at it apparently makes the Hugo look like stale fish.  Fine, that’s progress.
  
 Mr. Watts claims that the Mojo’s competition is $100k DAC’s insinuating that anything less than $100k is inferior - seemingly at the time same the sound since thread claims DAC’s don’t really make a difference.  So, if the Mojo is better than all DAC’s less than $100k, and the DAVE is less than $100k, I guess the $700 Mojo is better.  But I guess he means that it is better than all DACS from OTHER companies less than $100k.
  
 Here’s where I get a little lost…  If the $700 Mojo is in-line with $100k DAC’s from others – products about 142 times more expensive – I supposed the DAVE competes with $1.7 million DACs by the same math.  But I suppose diminishing returns kicks in and that 142 multiplier isn’t ‘realistic’ anymore.  The most expensive DAC’s I know of are just north of $100k and the $700 Mojo is playing hardball with them.  So the DAVE, which is 17 times more expensive than the Mojo surely easily bests them; and by a wide margin.  That means that the DAVE, according to this, IS the best DAC: period. 
  
 I mean the DAVE is better than the Mojo (right?) and the Mojo is among the best DAC’s.
  
 So if: Mojo >= All other DAC’s AND DAVE > Mojo THEN DAVE > All other DAC’s.
  
 Here’s where I have issue.  I don’t know of a single product in any industry that is the undisputed absolute BEST.  Even more so when it comes to something as personally subjective as audio, after all our personal tastes play into preference just like some would say salmon is their favorite fish and others tuna.  The math above doesn’t allow for that, though.  The DAVE is claiming to be the best, and not by a small margin – after all it should be in line with $1.7 million DAC’s which don’t exist.  In fact, the ceiling is about 17 times LOWER than that.
  
 You know what they say about things that are too good to be true?
  
 But if DAVE really is as good as all that, I want one.  Who wouldn’t??  I _want_ to believe but, objectively, it all sounds like hype and marketing hoop-la.  I refer back to the Hugo being claimed as the ‘giant killer’ when it hit and now people are looking down their noses at it.  And that was what?  Just a few months ago that it hit the market.
  
 I guess my question is this: can the DAVE possibly live up to this hype?  If we take a realistic aside, take a deep breath, and ask if it is as good as the claims are every audiophile with the budget should unquestionably be running out, selling their current digital setup and getting one, right?  I have a feeling we won’t see this, however.
  
  
 Honestly confused,
  
 -Paul


----------



## Beolab

bigfatpaulie said:


> I have a sincere question about Chord and their DAC’s.  I’m not trying to get anyone upset or be confrontational.  I am asking as someone who is genuinely interested in DAVE but I am horribly confused about something.
> 
> I remember when the Hugo first hit the market.  On Head-Fi it was quickly proclaimed as the greatest DAC on Earth – seemingly at the time same the Yggdrasil was making the same claim (we’ve all seen the famous DAC comparison chart).  Now the Mojo hits the market and at it apparently makes the Hugo look like stale fish.  Fine, that’s progress.
> 
> ...




Hi Paul! 

I think you have to take the statements with an little grain of salt, but Chord use a unique Puls Array discrete technology that is more unique, and sounds more musical than other Delta Sigma / R2R dacs like EmmLabs / DCS / MSB for example on the market. 

I like to take this parallel: 

If you have an old technic that suffer from many artefacts from start, then if you would like it to sound as good it can you have to take the best and most expensive parts around and put i together, and now we have a $100k DAC called MSB Select or DSC Vivaldi. 
So if we then develop a technic where we from start can manage to "go around" all the artefacts the R2R design have with Puls Array instead for a fraction of the price, then this is a smarter route to take. 

And Chord have sold most HiFi High End DACś in the world since Hugo hit the market. 

And i should not say Mojo is miles better than Hugo, the sound just suite me and others more, but this is a matter of taste.

And spec wise the Mojo having the potential to be better because of Moors Law , the processors gets smaller and more efficient with greater performance every year, and it have a greater noise shaper that gives the sound a little warmth and smoothness if you compare it to Hugo.

And the DAVE have much more processing power than what Mojo / Hugo can offer, so Rob have the opportunity here to wright an even more advanced algorithm SW than what the Mojo / Hugo can handle. 

So if you buy the DAVE it will be maybe the best DAC in the world technically and musicality wise , but we have different tastes reference and hearing so it maybe not for every one with different taste or bad hearing. 

Then the Mojo is a bargain !


----------



## hekeli

Just try to ignore the hype train. All the Mojo/Hugo/2Qute/TT/Dave/didiforgetsomething is quite confusing. Each is supposed to be clearly best in their price classes or compared to anything really (yeah whatever). Compared 2Qute to Gungnir Multibit and preferred latter, makes you really wonder if I need to cough up 7000£ more to get actually better, not gonna happen.


----------



## paul79

bigfat, I hear you.... This site in particular, is very quick to tout something as the best ever. Just look at any DAC mentioned on here.
  
 Not saying the Mojo ain't the mojo, but I can't fathom something so small offering up tremendous bass slam and dynamic contrasting. That takes on board capacitance to achieve, and this Mojo is not big enough to have this. Unless there is some very tricky power supply stuff going on with it, I have my doubts about its dynamic capabilities, which are very important to me.
  
 So I ask you guys, using this Mojo in a 2 ch speaker setup, does this indeed have the dynamics and bass slam of the bigger DAC's? IME, it really can't....


----------



## paul79

I will also say that the new CODEX from Ayre showed the 2Qute a clean pair of heels here at my place with PCM playback. It wasn't even close really, and I gained allot of respect for the CODEX in my comparisons. Albeit, it is small also, and does not have the dynamic contrasting and bass slam of the bigger DAC's I have. It still did better than the Chord 2Qute though, in this regard.
  
 What differences? The Chord 2Qute sounded clouded in comparison to the CODEX's absolute clarity and speed, and was equally if not more smooth in its presentation.


----------



## Beolab

paul79 said:


> bigfat, I hear you.... This site in particular, is very quick to tout something as the best ever. Just look at any DAC mentioned on here.
> 
> Not saying the Mojo ain't the mojo, but I can't fathom something so small offering up tremendous bass slam and dynamic contrasting. That takes on board capacitance to achieve, and this Mojo is not big enough to have this. Unless there is some very tricky power supply stuff going on with it, I have my doubts about its dynamic capabilities, which are very important to me.
> 
> So I ask you guys, using this Mojo in a 2 ch speaker setup, does this indeed have the dynamics and bass slam of the bigger DAC's? IME, it really can't....




Yes it have, its not a AMP it is a DAC with 3v output like evey other high end dac, with the same capability as every other 20 kg dac's who deliver great dynamic bass with impact. 

Its among the best i have heard.


----------



## Pokemonn

please read rob's post #12803
  


rob watts said:


> No power amp or pre-amp "likes" a full bandwidth signal - not if that signal has out of band noise. Out of band noise (RF noise) makes the SQ brighter as it induces noise floor modulation - the noise pumps up and down with the wanted music signal. The brain detects this noise, and can't separate it from the wanted signal, and as noise sounds bright (hiss) it adds an edge to the perceived timbre of the instrument.
> 
> The technical reason why its important is down to the fact that audio electronics (whatever flavour) is non-linear at RF frequencies, and random RF noise inter-modulates with the wanted music signal, creating inter-modulation products that is within the audio bandwidth - hence noise that pumps up and down with the wanted signal. I have measured this problem countless times, so its a very real problem.
> 
> ...


----------



## isquirrel

beolab said:


> When even Simon finds out that Mahler sounds almost as good on the Mojo as on his $200.000 MSB / Woo rig, then i get philosophical almost, and think that it most be just someone hide somewhere and play with us ??


 
  
 Better clear this up, I did not say that the Mojo sounds almost as good as the MSB Select, for that matter my MSB Select does not ship until the 10th Feb so I would't know. Fact is the Mojo sounds very god for such an incredibly small package. Clearly it is an engineering achievement of considerable note.
  
 More findings:
  
 I have now tried the Mojo with a variety of sources, there is no doubt that Optical in via the Aurender is by far the best, the worst performing (so far) is the iPhone with CCK/USB. The usual disclaimers apply:
  
 On my equipment, on this day using all the associated headphones, cables and connectors and source material, at this temperature etc etc


----------



## highfell

beolab said:


> If i just had a couple of % from each sold Remedy from W4s, then this could have bin a nice extra income! , because after a little listening, and this is only a short listening i can distinguish that the sound get richer, and smoother almost like the sound gets slower because you hear every single tone with more blackness around it. More solid / fluid / analog and Magical is the best words. You think that the product that reproduce this sound most at least weigh 20kg and not 80 grams
> 
> Two tracks you can here this clearly with is Boz Scaggs "Thanks to you" and
> Brian Bromberg: "My Bass" . Everything get more fluid and all veil and small high pitched brightness noise disappear in a elegant way.
> ...




So I really want to believe you , because it's not a huge upgrade cost and the thought of having an even better sound quality for my Hugo and Mojo is very appealing.

And it's really intriguing because Rob says no need to control jitter Plus DONT upscale the bits and the Remedy does both. I do believe that you believe your hear a better sound, and that is what actually matters

I did email Wired 4 Sound, so I have a dealer in the UK - maybe they would let me have it on sale or return. I feel an email coming on -


PS - I feel that the Hugo has the edge on the Mojo , a bit cleaner and more euphoric sounding , especially into a stereo speakers, but there isn't a lot between them. The mojo is certainly warmer sounding.


----------



## JaZZ

highfell said:


> ...I feel that the Hugo has the edge on the Mojo, a bit cleaner and more euphoric sounding, especially into stereo speakers, but there isn't a lot between them. The Mojo is certainly warmer sounding.


 
  
 I agree. Warmer, but not smoother, unfortunately (actually not quite as smooth) – to my ears.
  
 My personal ranking:
  
 1. DAVE
 2. Hugo
 3. Mojo
  
 However, the Mojo has some magic and intimacy which is quite intriguing sometimes, but to me it also comes accross as coloration, rather than lifelikeness. Strong, controlled and well-textured bass is one of its strengths, especially considering price and size.


----------



## Skampmeister

IMO, the Remedy Reclocker is adding the the sound making it sound different, not better. But that is a good thing and a bad thing, depending on what sound you like.


----------



## Beolab

highfell said:


> So I really want to believe you , because it's not a huge upgrade cost and the thought of having an even better sound quality for my Hugo and Mojo is very appealing.
> 
> And it's really intriguing because Rob says no need to control jitter Plus DONT upscale the bits and the Remedy does both. I do believe that you believe your hear a better sound, and that is what actually matters
> 
> ...




OT: 

You are perfectly correct with you findings btw Mojo and Hugo, i agree with you! 

E-mail Item Audio UK 
sales@itemaudio.co.uk

And my contact person is Mark at Item, a very nice guy to deal with, and he let you borrow almost wathever you want and just send it back if your not satisfayed with it. 

Give it a try. 

( On thing is that i use Li-ion battery power for the remedy. You get a slight warmer and less transparent sound with a ordinary switching charger. )

Back to topic


----------



## Beolab

skampmeister said:


> IMO, the Remedy Reclocker is adding the the sound making it sound different, not better. But that is a good thing and a bad thing, depending on what sound you like.




It is clearly sounding better no question about it. I find it take away the little veil edgy analytical character of Hugo and give you more blacked out 3D dept to it , and in the same time it is smoother while it perceives the fin detail, but the detail get richer is my findings.

This is what i should have flagged for in the next Hugo 2, not any more analytical sounding, and this follows with listening fatigue, and thats why many find the Mojo as the supreme one in the long run.


----------



## Beolab

isquirrel said:


> Better clear this up, I did not say that the Mojo sounds almost as good as the MSB Select, for that matter my MSB Select does not ship until the 10th Feb so I would't know. Fact is the Mojo sounds very god for such an incredibly small package. Clearly it is an engineering achievement of considerable note.
> 
> More findings:
> 
> ...




I was just joking a little, but was sincerely with my point of the greatness that such a small product can give that $$$$ dollar sound, and the boundaries are closing in on the top dollar DACś.


----------



## isquirrel

beolab said:


> I was just joking a little, but was sincerely with my point of the greatness that such a small product can give that $$$$ dollar sound, and the boundaries are closing in on the top dollar DACś.


 

 I don't buy into it, its these sorts of comments that keep me away from expressing thoughts about any equipment on line.


----------



## Beolab

Okey im sorry for that, but you don't see that the "evolution" moving the boundaries closer to the top $$$ dollar DAC's every year? 
 Im also sorry for being sarcastic about it because you have spend a huge amount on your rig, but i thaught you could take a small joke, and just laph about it, because you know what you have and how good it sounds, so no need to prove anything or take it personally i hope. 

Then i don't see realy in reality what is wrong with that sort of comment when everyone knows at this moment in life ( i sincerely hope?) that it will cost a huge amount of money to achieve the last 10-20% of refinement to reach the top end, its almost a law. 

Its the same with other things like cars for example, a Bugatti Veyron do 320km/h with only using 300 hp, but needs 700 extra horsepower to reach 400km/h and the last 80 km/h because of the physic laws in that case, but it is a slight diffrent with DAC technology yes, but just a parralel to how it can appere that it is just a small diffrence up to the top speed or the top sound, but in reality it is a hard achivment to reach it. 

You are a great benefit for our forum, and i hope you dont stop wrighting reviews of your findings and impressions i was like you just eager to say something about the good sound of the Mojo. 

 sorry mate


----------



## isquirrel

[quote name="Beolab" url="/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1500#post_12279405

 sorry mate[/quote]

No problem and no offense taken my friend. The issue is that the manufacturers do read these threads as it gives them an up to date idea of what customers are thinking/doing and how their product is being used and what end users think who are very different from the press as their is no Editor worried about upsetting an on going relationship with a manufacturer/advertiser. Before you know it someone will have used a quote like that & plastered it all over the web. I try hard now never to directly compare one manufacturers component with another. Someone ends up getting upset. 

IMHO what Chord are doing is raising the goal posts for the industry, contributions that will be felt for many years. Just taking that into account and they get a round of applause from me. I have long given up on relying on anything that I read because this hobby of ours is so personal. It is difficult for many 1st time buyers as they don't have the many years of experience that some people on this forum do, so even if they can audition a DAVE they still rely heavily on peer group support. It's our responsibility to make sure we give accurate feedback. 

The only ultra high end DAC I have spent time with and have publicly said it was a real shock to listen to was the full four box dCS stack as I would hate to see someone spend all that money and find out the hard way. For me it was nearly a case similar to "have you seen the Emprorers new clothes" I am dumbfounded that the big magazines still rave about it. I will say this, IMHO the Mojo is far superior. 

I am beginning to get a feel as to what Chord are doing. Once the DAVE arrives it will help complete the picture.

I will PM you about your Analog DAC.


----------



## romaz

bigfatpaulie said:


> Here’s where I have issue.  I don’t know of a single product in any industry that is the undisputed absolute BEST.


 
 Paul, if you've not yet had a chance to experience the DAVE or Mojo, you should be skeptical.  Some of these claims being made without question border on the absurd and even fanatical but that is to be expected with any appreciation thread here on Head-Fi.  We are, as audiophiles, after all very passionate as a group and so such superlatives as "best ever" are not unusual statements made here and on other forums.  I'm sure we each have uttered those words about some piece of gear at one point or another but as Beolab has stated, these statements should be taken with a grain of salt.  As so commonly said, YMMV.
  
 As you stated, with Tyll's Big Sound 2015, some very big names could not blind test the difference between a Schiit Yggy and an Antelope DAC and so there are many on Head-Fi that are probably already skeptical of many claims regarding the DAVE or Mojo.  However, those of us who have been in this hobby long enough and have made our own comparisons, even blinded, know how much better certain DACs are over another and what an impact it can have in a digital system and as an ownder of a Bricasti M1, I'm pretty sure you're part of the group that believes this.
  
 For me, I had my own doubts about the DAVE, let alone the Mojo.  For a summit-fi DAC that is just now being widely released, to have nearly 1,500 posts already on Head-Fi is quite unusual if not unprecedented.  It's a hype train similar to what I witnessed with the USB Regen when it first came out but the difference is the USB Regen sells for $175 while the DAVE sells for $13k which is what makes this hype train all the more remarkable.  I actually bought a USB Regen based on all the hype without having first experienced one and while it does make a small difference in my system, at no time did my jaw drop or tears start to stream from my face as some have described.  And so you can imagine my skepticism about the DAVE, especially as I was already a very content owner of a TotalDac d1-monobloc, a DAC I had regarded as the best headphone DAC in the world.
  
 Regarding Chord products, I am fairly new to the fold.  Having had a Hugo at my disposal for a full summer, I found myself not reaching for it very often as I never found it that engaging compared to my Bricasti M1 or as convenient as my portable Sony ZX2.  I was part of the group that considered this DAC more hype than substance and so in no way would I consider myself a Chord fanboy or devotee.  It also didn't help that there were so many arrogant statements being made about this DAC.  As you stated, when something sounds too good to be true, it usually is.  At the same time, where there's smoke, there's usually fire and there sure is a lot of smoke being made about the DAVE.  Enough that you need to experience it for yourself so you can judge it for yourself. 
  
 I've tested a lot of gear this past year and having owned or spent quality time with a lot of DACs including a W4S DAC 2 DSD SE, Auralic Vega, Schiit Yggy, PS Audio DirectStream, Hugo, MSB Analog, Bricasti M1 and TotalDac d1-single/dual/monobloc, I feel comfortable in knowing what I am looking for for myself.  My philosophy is that if it takes days or even hours to hear the difference, there isn't enough difference there.  Usually, I know within minutes or within a few tracks and that is what happened with the Bricasti M1 and the TotalDACs.  The differences were stark and these are DACs you could blind test with.  It hasn't happened with any other DAC again...until the DAVE.  But just because this has been my experience or someone else's experience doesn't mean it will be your experience. 
  
 I think you should forget the talk about lack of noise floor modulation, galvanic isolation, etc.  They'll be important later when you try to explain to yourself what you are hearing.  I think the only value of all of these comments is that the DAVE (and Mojo) are worth a personal audition.


----------



## lovethatsound

+1 romaz
The best thing to do is to home demo and let your own ears tell you


----------



## highendhifi

romaz said:


> Paul, if you've not yet had a chance to experience the DAVE or Mojo, you should be skeptical.  Some of these claims being made without question border on the absurd and even fanatical but that is to be expected with any appreciation thread here on Head-Fi.  We are, as audiophiles, after all very passionate as a group and so such superlatives as "best ever" are not unusual statements made here and on other forums.  I'm sure we each have uttered those words about some piece of gear at one point or another but as Beolab has stated, these statements should be taken with a grain of salt.  As so commonly said, YMMV.
> 
> As you stated, with Tyll's Big Sound 2015, some very big names could not blind test the difference between a Schiit Yggy and an Antelope DAC and so there are many on Head-Fi that are probably already skeptical of many claims regarding the DAVE or Mojo.  However, those of us who have been in this hobby long enough and have made our own comparisons, even blinded, know how much better certain DACs are over another and what an impact it can have in a digital system and as an ownder of a Bricasti M1, I'm pretty sure you're part of the group that believes this.
> 
> ...



This is useful, romaz. I'm soon going to be looking for my end-game transport/DAC and have a few short-listed, among which is the dCS Rossini, AudioReseaech Cd9, chord red ref 3, meridian 808.6, and a few others. The DAVE would likely be with a Blu transport. What makes this so hard is trying to get hold of demo kit that can a) be used at home, b) has been equally burnt-in and c) together temporally to make comparisons more accurately. In short it's nigh on impossible... So forums like this for people who have experience of "high end" kit but no real bias other than ownership always helps. When I demo-ed the DAVE, I had box fresh speakers which shouldn't have had any critical listening at all as they were awful. Only now with 30 hours are they even starting to loosen and warm up so I need to get that DAVE back. 
Additionally, I have no BNC on my Bryston player so they used some kind of adapter which is been warned wasn't ideal...


----------



## lovethatsound

highendhifi said:


> This is useful, romaz. I'm soon going to be looking for my end-game transport/DAC and have a few short-listed, among which is the dCS Rossini, AudioReseaech Cd9, chord red ref 3, meridian 808.6, and a few others. The DAVE would likely be with a Blu transport. What makes this so hard is trying to get hold of demo kit that can a) be used at home, b) has been equally burnt-in and c) together temporally to make comparisons more accurately. In short it's nigh on impossible... So forums like this for people who have experience of "high end" kit but no real bias other than ownership always helps. When I demo-ed the DAVE, I had box fresh speakers which shouldn't have had any critical listening at all as they were awful. Only now with 30 hours are they even starting to loosen and warm up so I need to get that DAVE back.
> Additionally, I have no BNC on my Bryston player so they used some kind of adapter which is been warned wasn't ideal...


Then use optical from your Bryston player to the dave.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> Paul, if you've not yet had a chance to experience the DAVE or Mojo, you should be skeptical.  Some of these claims being made without question border on the absurd and even fanatical but that is to be expected with any appreciation thread here on Head-Fi.  We are, as audiophiles, after all very passionate as a group and so such superlatives as "best ever" are not unusual statements made here and on other forums.  I'm sure we each have uttered those words about some piece of gear at one point or another but as Beolab has stated, these statements should be taken with a grain of salt.  As so commonly said, YMMV.
> 
> As you stated, with Tyll's Big Sound 2015, some very big names could not blind test the difference between a Schiit Yggy and an Antelope DAC and so there are many on Head-Fi that are probably already skeptical of many claims regarding the DAVE or Mojo.  However, those of us who have been in this hobby long enough and have made our own comparisons, even blinded, know how much better certain DACs are over another and what an impact it can have in a digital system and as an ownder of a Bricasti M1, I'm pretty sure you're part of the group that believes this.
> 
> ...




So your short conclusion about DAVE is jaw dropping sound like when you heard the ToTal DAC stack the first time?


----------



## 514077

When I was talking about the form and fitting in my pocket, I was refering to the Mojo.  Reading back my post, I noticed that error.Quote: 





bigfatpaulie said:


> I have a sincere question about Chord and their DAC’s.  I’m not trying to get anyone upset or be confrontational.  I am asking as someone who is genuinely interested in DAVE but I am horribly confused about something.
> 
> I remember when the Hugo first hit the market.  On Head-Fi it was quickly proclaimed as the greatest DAC on Earth – seemingly at the time same the Yggdrasil was making the same claim (we’ve all seen the famous DAC comparison chart).  Now the Mojo hits the market and at it apparently makes the Hugo look like stale fish.  Fine, that’s progress.
> 
> ...


 

 My thoughts on this whole mess is that: 1) Mojo and DAVE are the current FOTM. 2) DAVE will continue to rise above the competition for a long time, and 3) Mojo will eventually suffer from the same syndrom as Hugo. 
 I A/B'ed Hugo and Mojo with various classical and less dynamicly compressed older rock music.  I found Mojo a good upgrade to many available portable sources i.e. my X5I.  But, I found the Hugo to have superior timber and distiction between instruments especially in Classical music.
 In short, the Mojo does what it's intended to do, but, I certainly wouldn't trade down from Hugo to one.  If I didn't have a DAP that satisfies my SQ desires, I'd still carry the Hugo around if needed.  The thickness and narrowness of it's form made it uncomfortable in the pocket.
 Sorry to buck the hype trend, but I wouldn't mind hearing H vs M comparisons in a year or so when the novalty wears off.
 But, God! I'd love to hear the DAVE someday.


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> So your short conclusion about DAVE is jaw dropping sound like when you heard the ToTal DAC stack the first time?




Yes, of course, and don't forget the tears exploding from my face while my body trembled with seizure-like fervor as this DAC transported me back to a time in my youth when Inga, the lovely exchange student from Austria gave me my first kiss. I'm sure it was almost the same experience for you.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> Yes, of course, and don't forget the tears exploding from my face while my body trembled with seizure-like fervor as this DAC transported me back to a time in my youth when Inga, the lovely exchange student from Austria gave me my first kiss. I'm sure it was almost the same experience for you.






Sounds good romaz, i think i sough you at the last CES listen to the Dave / sennheiser combo, with the tears just poring down  

All other DAC companies can start produce land movers from now on instead 



But if we should be dead serious here, it is plausible the best DAC around at the moment.


----------



## pompom

romaz said:


> Yes, of course, and don't forget the tears exploding from my face while my body trembled with seizure-like fervor as this DAC transported me back to a time in my youth when Inga, the lovely exchange student from Austria gave me my first kiss. I'm sure it was almost the same experience for you.


 
  
 I see... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  So, do you consider now the DAVE better than your beloved TotalDAC mono ?


----------



## Beolab

Picture Request on Black DAVE: 

Please load up a picture on your Black DAVE when it is off , taken without flash in daylight like this picture on a Prime pre amp for example: 





Thanks


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> Sounds good romaz, i think i sough you at the last CES listen to the Dave / sennheiser combo, with the tears just poring down
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Just to be clear, no piece of audio equipment has ever caused my jaw to drop or bring tears to my eyes.  That's just not me.
  
 To be fair and balanced, we need to acknowledge that no DAC or any other piece of equipment is perfect and this includes the DAVE.  My wife and I have season tickets to our symphony.  We also host live concerts in our home.  Would I ever give these up because I think my hi-fi setup is equivalent?  Not a chance, not even close.
  
 Do I think the DAVE is better than the TotalDac d1-monobloc?  Not by every measure but in enough important ways which is why my monoblocs have found a new home and why I have a DAVE on order.  As I stated previously, they both do certain things well, better than any other DACs I have experienced on headphones, especially with regards to that elusive holographic sense of realism.  I had stated that with the TotalDac, the presentation is more relaxed compared to the DAVE.  Someone interpreted that as being soft but what I meant by it is "effortless" which to me is a very desirable trait.  Where the colors of the DAVE seem very vivid, sometimes too much so, almost like it's trying too hard.  Perhaps this is because I had gotten used to the presentation of the TotalDac.  I'm sure I will adjust.  The DAVE sounds more rounded.  Compared to the TotalDac, this sometimes feels artificial or contrived because not every sound we hear in the real world is rounded and pleasant.  Sometimes, it's important to hear unpleasant things if that's the way it's supposed to be.  With that said, almost all music can sound good on the DAVE whereas the TotalDac, while never harsh, can be more critical.  If you're looking for a studio DAC, I'm not sure what to say, maybe the DAVE isn't it, but if you're looking for a DAC that will allow you to lose yourself into your entire music collection, even tracks that you had difficulty enjoying in the past, then the DAVE is a remarkable achievement.
  
 Where the DAVE unequivocally excels is value.  Some will say, "Wow, look at him, he sold his TotalDac monoblocs and got a DAVE!"  The reality is I could have easily been happy staying with the TotalDac because to my ears, the delta between these two DACs isn't enormous even though I will go on record to say that I prefer the DAVE.  But if someone were to offer you good money to sell your TotalDac that then allowed you to buy the DAVE and put several thousand dollars back in your pocket, many would do what I have done, even if it was a completely lateral move.  If the two were equivalent in price, I wouldn't have switched because with the TotalDac, you are legitimately in the game.  That's just the honest truth.
  
 Is the DAVE the best DAC around?  For me, it depends.  At CES, I went directly from the MSB room to the Chord room at the Venetian.  The MSB Select II vs the Chord DAVE.  While not a true A/B and given that these were, in fact, show conditions with so many variables that were impossible to control, the MSB Select II was in every way spectacular.  Since people like specs, the reported noise floor of the Select II is -190 dB which is better than the DAVE.  Noise floor modulation?  Who knows but I didn't detect the digital harshness that Rob suggested would be easy to hear with noise floor modulation.  If I had to choose Select II vs DAVE on speakers based on what I heard at CES, I would have to give the nod to the Select II.  The problem with comparing speaker systems are the amps tend to be sometimes more the limiting factor where the full character of the DAC is difficult to fully appreciate.  In a way, this is why I enjoy headphones so much.  While the soundstage and imaging of speakers can't be matched by headphones, a good headphone directly connected to the DAC without an amp is more immersive.   The subtler qualities of the DAC in this setting shine through much more evidently and so until I can hear the Select II this way, I cannot say how good it is.  But even if the Select II is better (and again this will always be subjective), is the Select II 7-10x better as its price would suggest?   I think most of us already know the answer to this one and so this is the bar that the DAVE has set.


----------



## isquirrel

Over the past 18 months I have either been fortunate to own or on extended demo some spectacular DAC's any one of which could lay claim to "Best DAC" etc etc. The reality is there are differences and I invited a wide range of people to listen to these DAC's at various times. The only consistent person other than myself has been my partner. 
  
I have noted the following:
  
Every DAC has been equally and quite susceptible to the quality of the source
  
Each DAC has had its preferences as to which input sounded optimum
  
Only a handful of DAC's have been able to drive headphones direct or have a dedicated headphone output
  
Every manufacturer has stated that "their DAC is the best" 
  
What has been very clear to me and this is no different to the days of when Ivor Tiefenbrun introduced the Linn Sondek LP12 to the world of high end audio, the source is "The Key to Musical Enjoyment". You are better off spending less on your DAC and more on your source than the other way round. This has been my experience. I would also say that their is still considerable amounts of musical enjoyment left in the Redbook standard.
  
As Tiefenbrun said “If you haven’t heard it, you don’t have an opinion,” and “If it sounds better, it is better.” Tiefenbrun also advocated for, and popularised, the idea that the sound from a hi-fi system was more than merely the sum of its sonic parts. Most importantly when I was growing up in the early seventies and working as a High Fi Salesman on Tottenham Court Rd I met Ivor and he fortunately spent some time proving to me that a system is nothing without a good source. 
  
I to have fallen for the DAC love in, I have had about 9 of them in the past 2 years. I shrugged off the whole Music Server thing for as long as I could, but my Analog roots run deep and so I found that as with vinyl the Source is what really matters. Pretty much all of the DAC manufacturers have told me that their DAC is source agnostic, well it isn't so in my experience, even the type of input makes in most cases a bigger difference than the differences between a lot of these TOTL DAC's. In almost every instance USB either sounds close to or is the worst performer. AES 110 ohm or true 75 ohm SPDIF sounds much better.
  
​Back to Chord and specifically the DAVE, I for one am not going to perform some sort of on-line detailed comparison between it and the other DAC's I have had experience with, I will be listening afresh, first and foremost I will be trying to find the best source for it and let the rest flow on from there. Is it outstanding value? Yes I have no doubt, but if we are getting down to best bang for your buck then lets stop talking digital and start talking turntables or any analog source for that matter.
  
This last weekend I had the pleasure of being invited to hear an older gentleman's enormous horn system with a R2R deck, now that really was an experience to make you cry. I thoroughly enjoyed the whole procedure, climbing the library ladders to select the listening material, spooling it up and watching it as it played, its not the first time nor hopefully will it be the last. I loved every minute of it.
  
I was thinking that's what I miss most about digital, we very rarely talk about music here and there's no album covers to pour over sitting on the floor drinking coffee. Where's the music guys, I can't stretch to a Concert at home, but I am sure I saw Elvis the other day.
  
​Oh and one other thing do yourselves a favour and pickup one of these, http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Mapleshade-Clearlink-Optical-Cable-Standard-Toslink/productinfo/OPTICAL-ST/ a friend put me onto them they sound great and are priced really well, every DAC I have tried them on has sounded good and they work great out of computers. For the absolute best digital cable that would be this http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/transparent-reference-xl-digital-link/
  
Thats all for now, back to some glowing valves and good music.


----------



## isquirrel

Good little article on the state of digital at the CES from TAS which includes the DAVE
  
 http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/ces-2016-digital-and-personal-audio-1/


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> Just to be clear, no piece of audio equipment has ever caused my jaw to drop or bring tears to my eyes.  That's just not me.
> 
> To be fair and balanced, we need to acknowledge that no DAC or any other piece of equipment is perfect and this includes the DAVE.  My wife and I have season tickets to our symphony.  We also host live concerts in our home.  Would I ever give these up because I think my hi-fi setup is equivalent?  Not a chance, not even close.
> 
> ...




With the not ideal listening circumstances running in btw the rooms i can understand is hard to make judgement, but you maybe had a felling that there where pretty equal to scale , ample , micro dynamic , voices, 3D etc , but they did two totally different presentations/ characters i can imagine because of different speakers and amps / room and music who was played.


----------



## isquirrel

beolab said:


> With the not ideal listening circumstances running in btw the rooms i can understand is hard to make judgement, but you maybe had a felling that there where pretty equal to scale , ample , micro dynamic , voices, 3D etc , but they did two totally different presentations/ characters i can imagine because of different speakers and amps / room and music who was played.


 

 They are completely different DAC's aimed at very different markets. I think I would be the only lunatic to predominantly use Headphones to listen to a MSB Select, whereas the DAVE is built for exactly that purpose. All the Select's I know of have gone into big and I mean *big* 2 channel systems. Do you use you your Analog DAC for any 2 channel listening?
  
 Trying to ascertain much if anything in show conditions is hard, if anyone can do it its Roy


----------



## Skampmeister

What do you do for a living isquirrel to afford these DACs ?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I think it is worth noting that the current batch of leading edge Dacs are so detailed in their capabilities that without good electrics you will still not hear their true capabilities. I'll give an example: I have been using a the Isotek Sigmas with Dave and it is very clean indeed but I found my 350 watt Chord SPM 1200 mkII delivers better dynamics when plugged directly into the wall. So I tried an Isotek Syncro with the amp and plugged a Vertex AQ Jaya next to it. This setup (combined with the Sigmas for front end components) sounded very good and for a couple of months I lived with a good sound but it wasn't until I pulled out the basic Isotek premier cable and Connected the Sigmas to a second Syncro that the noise floor dropped to Dave levels. Maybe some of your electrics are better than mine but I would strongly recommend you experiment in this area of your setup to be sure. For me this final component made a significant difference to my system. Over and above the obvious greater separation, detail and clarity, Dave seemed to work better in the way the instrument signature was presented. I wasn't aware of any edge in the system before but this last piece in the jigsaw gave a new level of smoothness and cohesion. What stood out most though, even above the extra detail, was the harmonic relationship between instruments. For instance when a trumpet and trombone play together in live performance their harmonics meld in a beautifully natural way. To my surprise this enhancement to my electrics uncovered that same harmonic cohesion from Red Book playback. I have not heard that from anything this side of a master tape. Digital just did not handle harmonics properly in my experience until Dave came along but I wasn't aware of it till I sorted my electrics.


----------



## Skampmeister

Im running an isotek sigmas, Polaris and a mini Mira on my system and it is indeed very quiet.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

skampmeister said:


> Im running an isotek sigmas, Polaris and a mini Mira on my system and it is indeed very quiet.




Have you tried adding the Evo3 Syncro to it Skamp? The difference is not subtle.


----------



## Beolab

isquirrel said:


> They are completely different DAC's aimed at very different markets. I think I would be the only lunatic to predominantly use Headphones to listen to a MSB Select, whereas the DAVE is built for exactly that purpose. All the Select's I know of have gone into big and I mean *big* 2 channel systems. Do you use you your Analog DAC for any 2 channel listening?
> 
> Trying to ascertain much if anything in show conditions is hard, if anyone can do it its Roy




You are absolutely correct, it is matter of taste, preferences and purpose, but also it is always boundaries and politics involved sadly, so i hope Roy can get us an honest review later on. 

Then DAVE is not only a dedicated Headphone DAC, it just got a 1/4 inch headphone output as a feature.
 (That is a little miss leading propaganda)


Im mostly use my Analog DAC in a second living room connected to speakers ? 

But what im fishishig for is not which one is the Best, more the differences in their sound presentation and characters? . 

And again i hope Roy can tell us this later on without any strings attached .

Nice review of Mojo DAC 

http://www.artsexcellence.com/downloads/reviews/chord.mojo.artsexcellence.english.pdf


----------



## Skampmeister

daveredref-iii said:


> Have you tried adding the Evo3 Syncro to it Skamp? The difference is not subtle.




When I get a job maybe I'll look into it. So you use the Syncro for the power for the Sigmas?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Yes I do now. One for the sigmas and one for the power amp. I clearly had hum in my electrics and the Syncros eliminated it and dropped the noise floor accordingly. 

In retrospect it was obvious that it would improve the other half of my system if it worked on the power amp then the same problem would prevail into the Sigmas until I addressed it.


----------



## Skampmeister

You should try a mini Mira on your Tv/projector.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Not considered that tbh. Maybe I will


----------



## Jawed

isquirrel said:


> They are completely different DAC's aimed at very different markets. I think I would be the only lunatic to predominantly use Headphones to listen to a MSB Select, whereas the DAVE is built for exactly that purpose. All the Select's I know of have gone into big and I mean *big* 2 channel systems. Do you use you your Analog DAC for any 2 channel listening?



You're saying that DAVE isn't meant to be used in the biggest systems?


----------



## isquirrel

jawed said:


> You're saying that DAVE isn't meant to be used in the biggest systems?


 

 No that's not what I said, it may well if it starts to make waves on TAS and Stereophile. I am looking forward to seeing that happen, it will give the high end digital marketplace a good jolt.


----------



## Beolab

DAVE Review Part II 

http://www.hifistatement.net/tests/item/1681-chord-dave-teil-2




My only question to Rob is what type of monitors / headphones you using when you are developing and do listening tests in your office lab? ?


----------



## bmichels

SO....
  
 just take out the main circuit board, put it is a smaller/lighter case and add a (BIG) battery with well regulated 12v/5v, and you have a... portable DAVE


----------



## Kamil21

bmichels said:


> SO....
> 
> just take out the main circuit board, put it is a smaller/lighter case and add a (BIG) battery with well regulated 12v/5v, and you have a... portable DAVE




What would be more interesting is the impact on sound quality. I am sure there is some compromise in not having a linear power supply out of a separate box. Can anyone confirm if this is 5v and 12v?

The plug and socket in the main board will make for some straightforward to install, exciting after market power supply opportunities


----------



## Beolab

kamil21 said:


> What would be more interesting is the impact on sound quality. I am sure there is some compromise in not having a linear power supply out of a separate box. Can anyone confirm if this is 5v and 12v?
> 
> The plug and socket in the main board will make for some straightforward to install, exciting after market power supply opportunities




That would be a nice idea! 

Like a reverse to what LH Labs have dune with the VI DAC where they have tok a Geec Pulse and the Pulse powersupply and implemend under one chassi and call it the VI DAC.


----------



## Rob Watts

kamil21 said:


> What would be more interesting is the impact on sound quality. I am sure there is some compromise in not having a linear power supply out of a separate box. Can anyone confirm if this is 5v and 12v?
> 
> The plug and socket in the main board will make for some straightforward to install, exciting after market power supply opportunities


 
 I am sure there is some compromise in using a linear power supply - in fact I know there are compromises.
  
 Perhaps I should explain.
  
 When developing Hugo in 2012 I had to use switching regulators (battery life issues) rather than linear ones, as we all know linear regulators sound better don't they?
  
 Funny thing was, in testing and listening, the switching regulators sounded a lot smoother and darker with much better sound-stage depth.
  
 Also the DAC measured a lot better too, particularly with very small signals. I now know exactly why this happened, and why they sound better and exactly why they measure better within a DAC.
  
 Moral of the tale? Don't make assumptions based on what you think is happening, do the work, do the measuring, and do the rigorous listening tests. Then you find out that things are not as simple as you think, and you find out that previous certainties were mere assumptions.
  
 Rob


----------



## bmichels

rob watts said:


> I am sure there is some compromise in using a linear power supply - in fact I know there are compromises.
> 
> Perhaps I should explain.
> 
> ...


 
  
 And what about a very Good regulated BIG external battery connected to the plug and socket in the main board ?  
  
 Something like a custom made version of the Black Lightning (LiFePO4 (LFP) battery) by Red Wine Audio ?


----------



## Sonic77

bmichels said:


> And what about a very Good regulated BIG external battery connected to the plug and socket in the main board ?
> 
> Something like a custom made version of the Black Lightning (LiFePO4 (LFP) battery) by Red Wine Audio ?


 

 I think you need to reread what Rob Watts wrote.


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> I am sure there is some compromise in using a linear power supply - in fact I know there are compromises.
> 
> Perhaps I should explain.
> 
> ...




Its funny because i have discovered the same thing, and from the beginning i thaught my ears was faulty, but i thaught it wasn't any point to drop my findings on HeadFi because everyone are going to scream Linear supply / UPS battery power! 
I have found out that the sound is smoother and warmer in the bottom end vs Battery / Linear power from my listening tests. 

(And this tested with no cheap Wall Wart switching charger, i have used a Volt adjustable Vanson Switching supply for laptops with extra low ripple / RF. )


----------



## Rob Watts

bmichels said:


> And what about a very Good regulated BIG external battery connected to the plug and socket in the main board ?
> 
> Something like a custom made version of the Black Lightning (LiFePO4 (LFP) battery) by Red Wine Audio ?


 
 I did do listening tests with 2 Qute with the stock switching PSU and a 300A 12V car battery, and I could not hear a difference at all (unlike with Qute where there was a big difference).
  
 Dave has more internal regulation, more RF filtering, and higher innate power supply rejection ratio than 2 Qute, so if I were to do such a test I would be extremely surprised if I were to hear a difference.
  
 What people don't understand is that a DAC internally is a RF noise hell (and moreover is signal correlated too) - and this is several orders of magnitude more noisy than the noise you get from a properly designed PSU. That is where the effort goes into - the internal nodes in the DAC, where people don't see, appreciate or understand the difficulties.
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

Thats even more funny when people try to get rid of RF noise and get a better sound with a thicker $$$$$ power cable from NordOst without any filtering or anything, when the biggest issue is not the outer RF noise, its more often inside their equipments that are poorly built or need to be shielded/bettered in many ways first. But it is an easy way to satisfy the placebo effect  

I have participate in two seminars with Nordost here in Stockholm at the Sweet-Spot show, where they demoed a stock power cable with ODIN II in 3 m leght connected to a Sim Audio Moon rig with Wilson speakers, Brinkman servo turntable. 

Out of about 80 people in the room it was only one guy who thought he heard a difference. 

It was impossible to hear any difference, but the Nordost presentation guy thought it was a huge difference and recommend us all to throw out our existing Vahalla power cables and replace them with Odin II because the power cable in 3 meters is the most important connector in your hole audio chain. 

Then they also recommended to use Nordost Valhalla II or Purple Flare power cable for your aäApple TV for a Hugh performance upgrade for the picture and audio. 

Sadly this is only a big lie and placebo effect , where money is the only main goal to get people to think this is the solution for all of their problems in their systems back home.


----------



## Kamil21

rob watts said:


> Dave has more internal regulation, more RF filtering, and higher innate power supply rejection ratio than 2 Qute, so if I were to do such a test I would be extremely surprised if I were to hear a difference
> 
> Rob




Yes, but sometimes the noise from the power supply can leak via the power outlets into the other components such as the preamp and other equipment in the audio chain.

Martin Colloms of HiFi Critic noted once that unplugging a component which had a switching power supply from the shared mains had an impact on the overall sound (even if it was not directly in the audio chain). However I don't suppose this would matter if you were listening direct with headphones.


----------



## Beolab

kamil21 said:


> Yes, but sometimes the noise from the power supply can leak via the power outlets into the other components such as the preamp and other equipment in the audio chain.
> 
> Martin Colloms of HiFi Critic noted once that unplugging a component which had a switching power supply from the shared mains had an impact on the overall sound (even if it was not directly in the audio chain). However I don't suppose this would matter if you were listening direct with headphones.




Yes its true that a switching power supply can leak out dirty noise like an fridge in the power network in your home, so you need to have filter like a Isotek Mira that stop this leaking, but other than that i have only postive to say about the good quality Switching power supplys ( not wallwart versions) .

Got a B&W PVD1 Subwoofer with a big integrated switching power supply at my summer house and yes it is leaking noise big time, but with a shunt filter or a Isotek Mini Mira it is dead silent in my floor speakers now.


----------



## Skampmeister

Those mini Mira's are the bomb, I use one on my Telly, and it made a big difference to the picture, so clean looking.


----------



## bmichels

rob watts said:


> I did do listening tests with 2 Qute with the stock switching PSU and a 300A 12V car battery, and I could not hear a difference at all (unlike with Qute where there was a big difference).   Dave has more internal regulation, more RF filtering, and higher innate power supply rejection ratio than 2 Qute, so if I were to do such a test I would be extremely surprised if I were to hear a difference....
> 
> Rob


 
  
 So.... I can plan to built my battery powered portable  DAVE


----------



## Sonic77

bmichels said:


> So.... I can plan to built my battery powered portable  DAVE


 

 LoL , make sure you use a car battery.


----------



## bmichels

sonic77 said:


> LoL , make sure you use a car battery. :tongue_smile:




Or...Something like a custom made version of the Black Lightning (LiFePO4 (LFP) battery) by Red Wine Audio ?


----------



## TheAttorney

My first look and listen of the Dave is coming up tomorrow afternoon, when I'll compare it to the similarly priced CAD DAC, which hasn't received as much hype (to put it mildly), but it and matching CAT server quietly gets well reviewed by individuals.
  
 Then I'll take Dave home for the weekend (!) to compare against my Yggy, to see if the considerable price difference is worth it.
 Very curious as to how this will pan out.


----------



## Kamil21

theattorney said:


> My first look and listen of the Dave is coming up tomorrow afternoon, when I'll compare it to the similarly priced CAD DAC, which hasn't received as much hype (to put it mildly), but it and matching CAT server quietly gets well reviewed by individuals.
> 
> Then I'll take Dave home for the weekend (!) to compare against my Yggy, to see if the considerable price difference is worth it.
> Very curious as to how this will pan out.




Can't wait to hear your first impressions!

If it really is better than the CAD (which HiFi+ says is comparable to the top DcS) that would be something. 

What is the rest of your system, amplifier, headphones etc. you will be testing in?


----------



## romaz

bmichels said:


> Or...Something like a custom made version of the Black Lightning (LiFePO4 (LFP) battery) by Red Wine Audio ?


 

 Vinnie Rossi has completely discontinued production of the Black Lightning and all Red Wine Audio products.  He has decided to devote all of his attention to his new LIO.  I know because I asked some time ago.  Check your link and you'll see for yourself.
  
 Battery supplies also are not without their problems.  In theory, they can provide a more silent noise floor compared to a switching PSU but as we know, noise floor is not an issue for the DAVE.  This is already one of the quietest DACs you can buy and so I fail to understand what you would gain using batteries on the DAVE, certainly not portability which is what it provides the Hugo and Mojo.  It would support Rob's claim that he has succeeded in sufficiently isolating the DAVE from its switching PSU.  
  
 Rob has already mentioned that the switching PSU in the DAVE can affect other audio components and he suggested that you consider a line conditioner with the DAVE.  Lastly, Rob mentioned that the DAC environment is more likely to produce more RF than its PSU and so it is a credit to his efforts that the DAVE is such a quiet DAC with such a low noise floor but I am curious to know how much impact signal grounding might have with the DAVE using a grounding box made by Entreq or others.  I have asked Rob about this but he said he wasn't familiar with Entreq.  Nonetheless, it would seem to me that money would be better spent in something like this compared to a battery PSU which would void the DAVE's warranty.


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> My first look and listen of the Dave is coming up tomorrow afternoon, when I'll compare it to the similarly priced CAD DAC, which hasn't received as much hype (to put it mildly), but it and matching CAT server quietly gets well reviewed by individuals.
> 
> Then I'll take Dave home for the weekend (!) to compare against my Yggy, to see if the considerable price difference is worth it.
> Very curious as to how this will pan out.


 

 I, too, am eager to hear your impressions as I regard CAD highly but the only area where I believe the CAD 1543 DAC could compete with the DAVE would be on speakers and not on headphones.  The CAD 1543 in its current form is incapable of driving headphones directly.  You would need to pair it with a headphone amp which would significantly handicap it against the DAVE.


----------



## TheAttorney

kamil21 said:


> What is the rest of your system, amplifier, headphones etc. you will be testing in?


 
 I'm expecting the shop demo to include Aurender W20 source via USB, and a mid-range Stax system at the other end.
  
 My home system is in my profile. In short, it will be the CD transport section of my Nagra CDC via Toslink and a BHSE/009 at the other end.


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> I'm expecting the shop demo to include Aurender W20 source via USB, and a mid-range Stax system at the other end.
> 
> My home system is in my profile. In short, it will be the CD transport section of my Nagra CDC via Toslink and a BHSE/009 at the other end.


 

 You have a very nice setup.  Since you are using electrostatic headphones, then it will be a fair fight between the CAD and DAVE.
  
 Please do share what differences, if any, you are hearing between the W20 on USB compared to your CD transport via Toslink and whether you have a preference.


----------



## Mavwong

for Aurender, may I suggest use optical to Dave instead? Or at least try both USB and optical.
  
  
  
 Quote:


theattorney said:


> I'm expecting the shop demo to include Aurender W20 source via USB, and a mid-range Stax system at the other end.
> 
> My home system is in my profile. In short, it will be the CD transport section of my Nagra CDC via Toslink and a BHSE/009 at the other end.


----------



## rkt31

i don't think yggy is anywhere in the fight. even some people found mojo to be in the league of msb analog. i doubt yggy can even beat mojo purely for sound quality. (small size and and small price tag of mojo  does not mean that it should not even be think of comparing with yggy ). in one post i suggested one owner of yggy and ragnarok to feed the ragnarok with yggy and then with mojo fixed at 2.5 or 3 volt and tell the impression but there was no reply. i think no dac right now in the range of $2k to 3K is even close to mojo except hugo/tt , purely for sound quality and used as dac in full setup.


----------



## Sonic77

rkt31 said:


> i don't think yggy is anywhere in the fight. even some people found mojo to be in the league of msb analog. i doubt yggy can even beat mojo purely for sound quality. (small size and and small price tag of mojo  does not mean that it should not even be think of comparing with yggy ). in one post i suggested one owner of yggy and ragnarok to feed the ragnarok with yggy and then with mojo fixed at 2.5 or 3 volt and tell the impression but there was no reply. i think no dac right now in the range of $2k to 3K is even close to mojo except hugo/tt , purely for sound quality and used as dac in full setup.


 
 I agree I heard both the yggy and of course I own the DAVE, no contest, DAVE wins BIG. I wish the yggy was in the same ball park, but no way, sorry.


----------



## Skampmeister

rkt31 said:


> i don't think yggy is anywhere in the fight. even some people found mojo to be in the league of msb analog. i doubt yggy can even beat mojo purely for sound quality. (small size and and small price tag of mojo  does not mean that it should not even be think of comparing with yggy ). in one post i suggested one owner of yggy and ragnarok to feed the ragnarok with yggy and then with mojo fixed at 2.5 or 3 volt and tell the impression but there was no reply. i think no dac right now in the range of $2k to 3K is even close to mojo except hugo/tt , purely for sound quality and used as dac in full setup.




I have both the Mojo and the 2qute and a/b'ing the pair, the 2qute wins, no contest.


----------



## izzard1982

I sold Hugo after I bought Yggy with no regret. I have a DAVE on order now.


----------



## rkt31

@izzard, you sold Hugo for sound quality or for other reasons ? in what way yggy was better ? Hugo shines as dac in full system set up .


----------



## izzard1982

rkt31 said:


> @izzard, you sold Hugo for sound quality or for other reasons ? in what way yggy was better ? Hugo shines as dac in full system set up .


 
 Yes, Yggy sounds better than Hugo for me. And I had never used Hugo in portable setup, it had never left my home during the time I owned it. For me, Yggy sounds more nature/analog and weighty which is what I like. Hugo bettered Yggy in area like soundstage depth. The differences between the two are not night and day, actually their sound signature are quite different. And both need careful pairing to reach their full potential.


----------



## isquirrel

romaz said:


> I, too, am eager to hear your impressions as I regard CAD highly but the only area where I believe the CAD 1543 DAC could compete with the DAVE would be on speakers and not on headphones.  The CAD 1543 in its current form is incapable of driving headphones directly.  You would need to pair it with a headphone amp which would significantly handicap it against the DAVE.


 

 Very true, not an accurate test at all, I have been asked by a friend to look around for a SS SOTA  headphone amp that will be the next best thing, its not an easy task. The CAD 1543 DAC MK2 is a good DAC, need to take care of the feet placement to get the best out of them. I find 3 feet 2 on one end at the corners with a third in the centre of the corners on the parallel side generally works best.


----------



## isquirrel

theattorney said:


> My first look and listen of the Dave is coming up tomorrow afternoon, when I'll compare it to the similarly priced CAD DAC, which hasn't received as much hype (to put it mildly), but it and matching CAT server quietly gets well reviewed by individuals.
> 
> Then I'll take Dave home for the weekend (!) to compare against my Yggy, to see if the considerable price difference is worth it.
> Very curious as to how this will pan out.


 

 How did you go? Were they using the new CAD 1543 MK2 for the listening session?
  
 Did you end using the Aurender or the CAT as the source?


----------



## TheAttorney

DAVE has entered the building! Well, at least for a weekend loan.
  
 But first, let's go back to earlier in the day with the dealer's demo system for Round 1. This was yesterday, but weekend life has got in the way of me posting. Anyway, I had a couple of hours with the following:
  
 Aurender W20 -> Chord Sarum (posh £1k USB cable, no relation) ->  CAD DAC mk2 or DAVE -> Stax SRM 006T-> Stax SR 407 (I think).
  
 All powered via Power Plant 10 and various audiophile power chords and interconnects. CAD  to Stax was via SE RCA, and DAVE via balanced XLR. I resolutely didn't swap around different connections - I get easily confused with too many parameters.
  
 One crucial parameter was that I had expected the brand new DAVE to have arrived at least 1 week earlier, but it didn't, so it only had 2-3 days of burn-in, which I feel wasn't nearly enough, but we are where we are.  So, with a room all to myself, comfy sofa, cup of coffee and a box full of expensive toys, life can get hard, but someone's got to do it!
  
 I started with the CAD to get a benchmark for sound signature of the whole system, as the Stax pairing was several notches lower compared to back home.  In short, it sounded pretty good. Clear, detailed presentation albeit in a thinner, less full bodied, less expansive way than I'm used to.
  
 Then, after  an hour or so casually swapping between CAD and DAVE, the conclusion I had at the end was much the same as in the first few minutes. There can only be one winner in any shoot out - or can there? Let's find out...
  


Spoiler: And the winner is



[size=11.0pt]Yep, you've guessed it , it was a draw. More or less. Give or take. The CAD was a touch warmer, the DAVE a bit more precise, detailed and dynamic, but with a touch of unwelcome brightness. These were incremental differences, nothing was night and day.  In overall presentation, it was a bit like analogue vs digital,  tube vs solid state, there's no right or wrong.[/size]
 [size=11.0pt] [/size]
 [size=11.0pt]All else being equal, if pushed I'd probably go for the CAD, if only for it's more seductive presentation, e.g. of female vocals. But all else isn't equal because, for much the same price, the CAD is a one-trick pony, minimalist USB-only DAC, whereas DAVE is an all singing and dancing , multi-purpose music system in a small, self contained box. And further burn-in may (or may not) remove that touch of brightness.[/size]
 [size=11.0pt] [/size]
 [size=11.0pt]As a reminder to never take any single listening session as conclusive proof of anything, my perception of Dave's sound signature changed considerably when I tried it at home, just a few hours later. Getting interesting now. But that's another post for later this weekend because life's getting in the way again.[/size]
 [size=11.0pt] [/size]
 [size=11.0pt] [/size]


----------



## Beolab

It i just sad the CAD is just so ugly and low finish like an old Satellite SetTopBox Decoder ;( 

It is sadly not welcome in my home nevertheless how good it may sound  

I think the best looking HiFi Streamers / DAC with the highest finished products is Devialet, Chord, MSB and a side contender but not a DAC is D'Augostino.


----------



## nepherte

beolab said:


> It i just sad the CAD is just so ugly and low finish like an old Satellite SetTopBox Decoder ;(


 
  
 Says the person with an Abyss in the avatar  How goes the saying again? De gustibus et coloribus...


----------



## Sonic77

theattorney said:


> DAVE has entered the building! Well, at least for a weekend loan.
> 
> But first, let's go back to earlier in the day with the dealer's demo system for Round 1. This was yesterday, but weekend life has got in the way of me posting. Anyway, I had a couple of hours with the following:
> 
> ...


 

 So weak, we need a winner.


----------



## Rob Watts

De gustibus et coloribus...
  
 So true, there is no accounting for taste.
  
 Or: _suum cuique_ is perhaps more appropriate for sound quality.
  
 Perhaps this is more in line: _quod ali cibus est aliis fuat acre venenum_
  
But for NOS DAC's again from Lucretius, this is perhaps more appropriate: _Nil posse creari
 de nilo_
  
 Rob


----------



## TheAttorney

sonic77 said:


> So weak, we need a winner.


 
 No, what we really need is _THE TRUTH_ )
  
 Or at least an honest, personal interpretation of the truth, untainted by fanboy-ism, herd-ism, shill-ism, blind prejudice, blind scepticism, etc, etc,  
 Not easy to pull it off, but amongst the considerable noise on this site, I do feel there are some posters around here who can do that sufficiently well.


----------



## Articnoise

theattorney said:


> No, what we really need is _THE TRUTH_ )
> 
> Or at least an honest, personal interpretation of the truth, untainted by fanboy-ism, herd-ism, shill-ism, blind prejudice, blind scepticism, etc, etc,
> Not easy to pull it off, but amongst the considerable noise on this site, I do feel there are some posters around here who can do that sufficiently well.


 
  

 Yes its true it would be much better without the noise, fanboy-ism etc, but audio is still very much about personal preferences and associated gear, no way around it. The vary thought that one DAC/AMP/Speakers or whatever would always be the best in all system and to fit all peoples preference is kind of naïve IMO.


----------



## nepherte

rob watts said:


> De gustibus et coloribus...
> 
> So true, there is no accounting for taste.
> 
> ...



All very true


----------



## lovethatsound

theattorney said:


> No, what we really need is _THE TRUTH_ )
> 
> Or at least an honest, personal interpretation of the truth, untainted by fanboy-ism, herd-ism, shill-ism, blind prejudice, blind scepticism, etc, etc,
> Not easy to pull it off, but amongst the considerable noise on this site, I do feel there are some posters around here who can do that sufficiently well.


I'm being honest,I've had the Dave for about 5 or 6 weeks now,and i think it's a fantastic piece of kit.sound wise,personally,i think it's stunning.It's a pre amp,a headphone amp,and a dac,it don't take up much space.Is it the best dac out their?well i don't know,I've not heard them all.what i can say is since I've had it ,i spend most of my free time enjoying it


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

The Attorney
 Did I just read that right, did you claim to deliver 'the truth' on Dave and then pronounce your opinion on its standing against another product after just 2-3 days burn in?


----------



## STR-1

I'm very keen to have a proper demo of the Dave and be able to compare it to the Chord Hugo TT, both of which would be a step up (or two) from the Hugo and Mojo I currently have. 

Popped into the Headroom show in London on Friday and had a quick listen to the Dave through the Audeze LCD-4 that was hooked up to it. That didn't tell me much as I am not overly familiar with the LCD-4 (had previously heard a 'not quite run-in pair' through my Hugo but my natural leanings are more towards the HIFIMAN HE1000 and Sennheiser HD800 - I have them both) and there was a fair amount of ambient noise. 

My question to you lucky guys (and girls?) who already own the Dave is whether you think the Dave is a sensible proposition in a headphone-only system if the system was Astell & Kern AK380/Dave/HIFIMAN HE1000. I can just about afford the £8k asking price. Would you say the jump in SQ from TT to Dave was greater than the jump from Hugo to TT? Would perhaps the TT be the more sensible and value for money option? Yes, I know I've got to listen to the various options myself but I think it will be sometime before I get chance to listen to the Dave and TT together and I might be persuaded not to waste any more time and just go for the TT, which I have had a good listen to and do like. Thanks in advance for any thoughts. Cheers


----------



## TokenGesture

life is too short


----------



## TheAttorney

daveredref-iii said:


> The Attorney
> Did I just read that right, did you claim to deliver 'the truth' on Dave and then pronounce your opinion on its standing against another product after just 2-3 days burn in?


 

 No, that is very far from the point I was trying to make.
  
 I'll try again. We want truthful, thoughtful, experienced, considered and balanced impressions, which can help us produce a short list of contenders from which we can eventually decide for ourselves. 
 Of course, it is a given that personal preference and system synergy and level of experience are crucial factors in any review. That can't be helped, but the experienced reader can over time gain a feeling for how a poster's preferences and experience relates to our own, and make adjustments accordingly.
  
 So, I put in some effort to explain the circumstances of my listening session, including the point about burn-in, in order to give as balanced and honest a view based on the constraints I had. The reader can take all that into account.
 I also tried hard to avoid the temptation to modify my review simply to fit in more with current consensus or even my my own expectations. I really wanted DAVE to have been the easy winner, because the CAD is not a contender for me for the reasons previously stated.
  
 So I'm absolutely not claiming to pronounce "the truth" on DAVE, but I am claiming that whatever I did pronounce was honest and fair, within all the limitations of the circumstances.
  
 To clear up another possible misunderstanding, my point about the noise on this _site_ was not specifically directed at this thread, which since I started reading quite recently has had well above average helpful posts. I don't know what it was like before real listening impressions started coming in. An example of unnecessary noise is the Orpheus 2 thread, with pages and pages of repetitive indignation and wild speculation.


----------



## Kamil21

theattorney said:


> DAVE has entered the building! Well, at least for a weekend loan.
> 
> But first, let's go back to earlier in the day with the dealer's demo system for Round 1. This was yesterday, but weekend life has got in the way of me posting. Anyway, I had a couple of hours with the following:
> 
> ...




Here is a competing snapshot review of the Dave with Stax headphones, for comparison.

http://highendheadphones.tumblr.com/post/135863624434/its-going-to-be-a-fun-christmas-update


----------



## zappazappazappa

str-1 said:


> I'm very keen to have a proper demo of the Dave and be able to compare it to the Chord Hugo TT, both of which would be a step up (or two) from the Hugo and Mojo I currently have.
> 
> Popped into the Headroom show in London on Friday and had a quick listen to the Dave through the Audeze LCD-4 that was hooked up to it. That didn't tell me much as I am not overly familiar with the LCD-4 (had previously heard a 'not quite run-in pair' through my Hugo but my natural leanings are more towards the HIFIMAN HE1000 and Sennheiser HD800 - I have them both) and there was a fair amount of ambient noise.
> 
> My question to you lucky guys (and girls?) who already own the Dave is whether you think the Dave is a sensible proposition in a headphone-only system if the system was Astell & Kern AK380/Dave/HIFIMAN HE1000. I can just about afford the £8k asking price. Would you say the jump in SQ from TT to Dave was greater than the jump from Hugo to TT? Would perhaps the TT be the more sensible and value for money option? Yes, I know I've got to listen to the various options myself but I think it will be sometime before I get chance to listen to the Dave and TT together and I might be persuaded not to waste any more time and just go for the TT, which I have had a good listen to and do like. Thanks in advance for any thoughts.


 
 I also attended Headroom - great venue and show. As a TT owner I was keen to hear Dave, however after listening to a few tracks played through the Audeze phones I felt that I was not able to get a proper handle on the absolute SQ due to the rich laid back SQ of the Audeze phones being used - not a great choice to demo their flagship DAC/Headphone amp with IMO. I had previously heard the Audeze LCD-4's being driven by their (Audeze) new dedicated headphone amp downstairs and the sound was very rich and syrupy. The Dave tightened it up but on the basis of what I heard I'll be sticking with my TT, for the time being at least.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

theattorney said:


> DAVE has entered the building! Well, at least for a weekend loan.
> 
> But first, let's go back to earlier in the day with the dealer's demo system for Round 1. This was yesterday, but weekend life has got in the way of me posting. Anyway, I had a couple of hours with the following:
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 So I guess the CAD is ALSO better than $100,000 DAC's, right?
  
 It's just surprising to hear that any DAC could to toe-toe with DAVE.  After all, I've read that the DAVE bests even the best.  Hunh.  I guess you learn something everyday.


----------



## ecwl

I am always reluctant to post anything that would be too controversial. I think personal preferences for DACs or any audio gear is a very subjective thing. Since we are on Head-Fi, let's talk about something less controversial: speakers as an example first. In theory, in a room without significant acoustic issues, most people should prefer accurate reproduction of sound which means that speakers should have a reasonably flat frequency response. But we all know some people preferring speakers with fairly unique frequency responses that deviate from neutrality. And obviously, there are other speaker characteristics, like dynamic compression, cabinet resonance, etc. that matter more to one person than another.
  
 I like Chord DACs, owning QBD76HDSD and Mojo and hoping to own DAVE soon so I am biased.
  
 But I think the main claim for Chord DACs and specifically DAVE is that the WTA filtering and long tap lengths make the digital-to-analog conversion more faithful to the original analog waveform leading to more accurate analog reproduction of transients compared to other DACs. Moreover, the lower noise floor and absence of noise floor modulation (and I guess low-level linearity) is superior to other DACs. I think it is reasonable to take these as facts (despite skeptics out there) as one can say compare measurements, e.g. on Stereophile of the Chord Mojo compared to other DACs. How that translates to sound quality becomes much more subjective. The main reason is that other than Rob Watts who can reprogram the FPGA so that he can change the noise floor or noise floor modulation or the tap length or oversampling filtering to simulate other DACs, none of us truly know the effects of these technical measurements on sonic quality. So I am taking Rob Watts's words when he tells us that as he improves these measurable digital/analog parameters when designing the DAVE, he gets improved sound.
  
 And now comes the more controversial part... The reason why I believe Rob Watts is because I hear what he is talking about when I listen to QBD76HDSD or Mojo. I do find the sound more natural, the transients more precise, the lower noise floor of the Mojo leading to a warmer sound with more depth and 3-dimensionality. And when I listen to other DACs, like Sabre chip basd DACs, I find the sound to be brighter or harsher and the instruments not as natural. Or when I listen to a high-end R2R DAC recently, I hear the issues with low-level linearity and distortion of the timbre of some instruments with softer sound/volume depending on whether there are other louder instruments playing simultaneously. But the owners or dealers of these other DACs often find them to be superior to say the Chord Mojo. Is this because as with some speaker preferences, do some people just like certain types of distortions in their DACs?  Or is it that I'm so biased towards Chord that I do not hear the weakness or other types of inferior (presumably technical) characteristics within Chord DACs? I don't know. But ultimately, we spend our own money so as long as we like the sound of the DAC we bought, we should be super happy. It really wouldn't matter to me if someone else feels their non-Chord DAC is superior to my Chord DACs as long as I enjoy my Chord DAC's sound more. And if I don't, I'll go out and buy their non-Chord DAC...


----------



## bigfatpaulie

ecwl said:


> I am always reluctant to post anything that would be too controversial. I think personal preferences for DACs or any audio gear is a very subjective thing. Since we are on Head-Fi, let's talk about something less controversial: speakers as an example first. In theory, in a room without significant acoustic issues, most people should prefer accurate reproduction of sound which means that speakers should have a reasonably flat frequency response. But we all know some people preferring speakers with fairly unique frequency responses that deviate from neutrality. And obviously, there are other speaker characteristics, like dynamic compression, cabinet resonance, etc. that matter more to one person than another.
> 
> I like Chord DACs, owning QBD76HDSD and Mojo and hoping to own DAVE soon so I am biased.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Haha    Was what I said controversial?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Buying what you like the sound is absolutely perfect and, as you pointed out, there are different speakers that sound difference because, well, people are different and have different preferences.  I am 100% behind you.


----------



## Sonic77

Well this is something we all already knew, opinions very, YMMV, ect Yet we all love to read reviews, I think by now we have learned that we need judge for ourselves which is our preference. I think in time there will be a consensus that the DAVE dac really is in a class all it's own.


----------



## Mavwong

I suggest use HEK to compare. I also find LCD4 bit too rich and not as transparent as HEK.
  
  
  
 Quote:


str-1 said:


> I'm very keen to have a proper demo of the Dave and be able to compare it to the Chord Hugo TT, both of which would be a step up (or two) from the Hugo and Mojo I currently have.
> 
> Popped into the Headroom show in London on Friday and had a quick listen to the Dave through the Audeze LCD-4 that was hooked up to it. That didn't tell me much as I am not overly familiar with the LCD-4 (had previously heard a 'not quite run-in pair' through my Hugo but my natural leanings are more towards the HIFIMAN HE1000 and Sennheiser HD800 - I have them both) and there was a fair amount of ambient noise.
> 
> My question to you lucky guys (and girls?) who already own the Dave is whether you think the Dave is a sensible proposition in a headphone-only system if the system was Astell & Kern AK380/Dave/HIFIMAN HE1000. I can just about afford the £8k asking price. Would you say the jump in SQ from TT to Dave was greater than the jump from Hugo to TT? Would perhaps the TT be the more sensible and value for money option? Yes, I know I've got to listen to the various options myself but I think it will be sometime before I get chance to listen to the Dave and TT together and I might be persuaded not to waste any more time and just go for the TT, which I have had a good listen to and do like. Thanks in advance for any thoughts. Cheers


----------



## lovethatsound

theattorney said:


> No, what we really need is _THE TRUTH_ )
> 
> Or at least an honest, personal interpretation of the truth, untainted by fanboy-ism, herd-ism, shill-ism, blind prejudice, blind scepticism, etc, etc,
> Not easy to pull it off, but amongst the considerable noise on this site, I do feel there are some posters around here who can do that sufficiently well.


----------



## smial1966

What isolation devices (if any) are DAVE owners using to protect against spurious vibrations? I have DAVE sitting on a spiked plinth atop a wooden rack, but did wonder whether adding Stillpoints footers would be advantageous.
  
 Any thoughts guys?


----------



## lovethatsound

sonic77 said:


> Well this is something we all already knew, opinions very, YMMV, ect Yet we all love to read reviews, I think by now we have learned that we need judge for ourselves which is our preference. I think in time there will be a consensus that the DAVE dac really is in a class all it's own.


+1


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

smial1966 said:


> What isolation devices (if any) are DAVE owners using to protect against spurious vibrations? I have DAVE sitting on a spiked plinth atop a wooden rack, but did wonder whether adding Stillpoints footers would be advantageous.
> 
> Any thoughts guys?


 
  
 1) I use VetexAQ granite platforms for my transport, Dac and Power amp.
 2) Each granite plinth sits on 4 Sorbothane Hemispheres
 3) Dave Dac also sits in Chord cradle
 4) Red Ref III also has 2 Stillpoints Ultra SS at front leading edge to eliminate any self induced vibration created by the disc mechanism
 5) Dave Dac lowest leading edge steadied by 2 more Stillpoints Ultra SS because it sits on a soft membrane on the inner edge of the cradle  and I like to add a rigid stability to how my units sit once they have been properly isolated
 6) Loudspeakers sit on 500mm granite plinths which themselves sit on 4 x Ricable SK4 spikes for each plinth*
  
 *You would think that speakers with spikes going straight onto large granite slabs that sit on my carpet would be enough to isolate the speakers and you would be right but unfortunately speakers create their own vibration and those slabs will react with the carpet surface. This results in a less clearly defined top end and my experience in adding spikes to the underside of the slabs was frankly profound.


----------



## smial1966

Many thanks for the invaluable information. I'll borrow a set of Stillpoints Ultra SS Isolators from my local dealer and try these underneath DAVE.
  
 As an aside, the Chord cradle is £1,500, so I wondered whether you considered it a necessary/worthwhile purchase for DAVE? Does it do anything else apart from tilting DAVE at an angle and securely holding the unit?
  
 Thanks again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Quote:


daveredref-iii said:


> 1) I use VetexAQ granite platforms for my transport, Dac and Power amp.
> 2) Each granite plinth sits on 4 Sorbothane Hemispheres
> 3) Dave Dac also sits in Chord cradle
> 4) Red Ref III also has 2 Stillpoints Ultra SS at front leading edge to eliminate any self induced vibration created by the disc mechanism
> ...


----------



## Beolab

This massive stand also works perfectly for DAVE and all procucts in the Coral range:


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Smial
 I have found that Chord isolation is very good indeed. If you look at the fundamental design of say a Red Ref III player or Dave cradle or Chord power amp you will see the design flow is to get the feet out from under the unit. So you have horizontal carriers which connect to the vertical feet. If we compare that to most HiFi units the feet are directly under the chassis. In my experience all the best isolated components work on the same principal as used by chord and even Stillpoints design is centred around that principle (albeit on a micro scale). Which is why I believe Stillpoints are considered the best in their field right now.
  
 Is the cradle overpriced? Damn right it is! Does it do the job it was designed to do? Yes, very well imo.
  
 Hope this helps.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Just as an aside to my comments above regarding isolation:
  
 When I bought my VertexAQ Kinabalu platforms 10 years ago each came with these 3 pucks to put under the unit.
  




  
 It is the spiked one that was most important as it stabilised the unit with the granite surface once isolated. That is the same principle I am using my Stillpoints for. First isolate, then anchor for stability. That has provided the best results for me over the years.


----------



## Kamil21

beolab said:


> This massive stand also works perfectly for DAVE and all procucts in the Coral range:




Has anybody seen the stand in black?


----------



## highendhifi

Just placed my order for a black DAVE!


----------



## Kamil21

highendhifi said:


> Just placed my order for a black DAVE!




And a black stand?


----------



## highendhifi

kamil21 said:


> And a black stand?



No, I'll probably use a Townshend platform under


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

beolab said:


> This *massive stand* also works perfectly for DAVE and all procucts in the Coral range:


 
 Massive Stand...... Ha Ha Ha.
  
 This is a massive Chord Electronics stand ;


----------



## lovethatsound

bonesy jonesy said:


> Massive Stand...... Ha Ha Ha.
> 
> This is a massive Chord Electronics stand ;


show off lol


----------



## Jon773

I had the pleasure of listening to the Dave at the recent London headphone show. I have to say it sounded extremely good, very detailed and it really brought the music to life, made me want to upgrade my Hugo, but then I had to remind myself of the price. They had it hooked up to a pair of LCD-3.
  
 My friend was trying out the Hugo TT and came over to try the Dave as well, he was also extremely impressed... Best part was when a gentleman walked up to try out the Dave and my friend warned him to beware as he would only end up wanting one and its "pricey", chap turns to him and says "its ok, I own the company".... I thought I recognized him, it was John Franks.
  
 Great product, well worth a listen to if you get  a chance and they Chord team had it hooked up to quite an extensive music collection as well, so you are bound to find something you know well to listen to.


----------



## Beolab

kamil21 said:


> Has anybody seen the stand in black?




It is my stand on the picturer and i kow you can order it in black color, but chord only produce it by order and the do not have any picture on it. The pris for the new modular chord stand i got is $3000 inc. VAT for one chord coral unit, incl the base.


----------



## JaZZ

daveredref-iii said:


> Just as an aside to my comments above regarding isolation:
> 
> When I bought my VertexAQ Kinabalu platforms 10 years ago each came with these 3 pucks to put under the unit.
> 
> ...


 
  
 At least theoretically such measures could have an effect on music reproduction when listening to speakers. But what about headphone listening?
  
 My own DAVE just sits on the surface of a (now unused) McCormack UDP-1. I can't imagine that I would hear a difference with spikes, a stand or a cradle. I'm just asking out of theoretical interest, as I certainly won't enter this field of upgraditis, and I'm perfectly happy with how my DAVE sounds.
  
  


highendhifi said:


> Just placed my order for a black DAVE!


 
  
 Congrats on you decision! Right color, right device. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You can't take your money to your grave anyway.


----------



## highendhifi

jazz said:


> At least theoretically such measures could have an effect on music reproduction when listening to speakers. But what about headphone listening?
> 
> My own DAVE just sits on the surface of a (now unused) McCormack UDP-1. I can't imagine that I would hear a difference with spikes, a stand or a cradle. I'm just asking out of theoretical interest, as I certainly won't enter this field of upgraditis, and I'm perfectly happy with how my DAVE sounds.
> Thanks Jazz! I'm super excited I have to say. I, like Dave, listen mainly via speakers and I have a Headphone rig upstairs. My intention is to have DAVE performing DAC duties in my main speaker rig but I do wonder if I'll end up moving or selling my headphone rig...
> ...


----------



## JaZZ

> Originally Posted by *highendhifi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 The latter would be a pity. DAVE's headphone out represents a direct connection of DAC and headphone voice-coil. There are not much other devices which offer that. An approach to the direct connection between recording and brain.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Jazz
 I have no first hand experience so I can't comment on its merits for headphone listening


----------



## highendhifi

jazz said:


> The latter would be a pity. DAVE's headphone out represents a direct connection of DAC and headphone voice-coil. There are not much other devices which offer that. An approach to the direct connection between recording and brain. :basshead:



Agreed-what I meant was selling my can amps and getting a moveable chair into my listening room to allow me to do my headphone listening downstairs rather than hoagies where it is 
Hoagies? *upstairs*


----------



## Kamil21

theattorney said:


> DAVE has entered the building! Well, at least for a weekend loan.
> 
> But first, let's go back to earlier in the day with the dealer's demo system for Round 1. This was yesterday, but weekend life has got in the way of me posting. Anyway, I had a couple of hours with the following:
> 
> ...




@TheAttorney , sorry to bug you but we are still waiting for your further impressions of Dave, now that you have it at home among more familiar equipment.


----------



## highendhifi

kamil21 said:


> @TheAttorney , sorry to bug you but we are still waiting for your further impressions of Dave, now that you have it at home among more familiar equipment.



+1


----------



## highendhifi

I've been going through a bit of a purchase frenzy, and in addition to the DAVE I have also received an old Sony cdp103 and a Philips cd202 but also a Rega Isis which I've just plugged in. Not as analytic as my Bryston bcd1byt by golly it makes your foot tap. Very musical indeed. This is the same sensation as I got from my first listen to Dave. It has a 75ohm coax too so will be a better interim measure as transport


----------



## lovethatsound

highendhifi said:


> I've been going through a bit of a purchase frenzy, and in addition to the DAVE I have also received an old Sony cdp103 and a Philips cd202 but also a Rega Isis which I've just plugged in. Not as analytic as my Bryston bcd1byt by golly it makes your foot tap. Very musical indeed. This is the same sensation as I got from my first listen to Dave. It has a 75ohm coax too so will be a better interim measure as transport [/quote
> You won the lottery then?


----------



## Beolab

highendhifi said:


> I've been going through a bit of a purchase frenzy, and in addition to the DAVE I have also received an old Sony cdp103 and a Philips cd202 but also a Rega Isis which I've just plugged in. Not as analytic as my Bryston bcd1byt by golly it makes your foot tap. Very musical indeed. This is the same sensation as I got from my first listen to Dave. It has a 75ohm coax too so will be a better interim measure as transport




Tip: 

If you buy a Coax RCA 1-2 BNC Y-split cable adapter in to the DAVE you double the sampling length to 88.2khz . 

This work also if you have a 1-2 Toslink repeter splitter box.

But if you can hear any diffrence is another question, you should not in theory, but different DACś sounds a little different depending on the input sampling length


----------



## highendhifi

beolab said:


> Tip:
> 
> If you buy a Coax RCA 1-2 BNC Y-split cable adapter in to the DAVE you double the sampling length to 88.2khz .
> 
> ...


 
That's weird no? Maybe worth investigation, depending on what I use as transport I guess


----------



## TheAttorney

kamil21 said:


> @TheAttorney , sorry to bug you but we are still waiting for your further impressions of Dave, now that you have it at home among more familiar equipment.


 
  
 It got complicated and I got busy and still am, so I'll skip my more elaborate jokey reviews and get to the bottom line(s):
  
 I felt DAVE was better than Yggy. They shared the same neutral sound signature, but DAVE did everything better. But then it started getting complicated, because the difference was not that big and definitely not big enough to justify the huge price increase. And the digital interconnect was CRUCIAL in this comparison. I used a loan Audioquest Vodka toslink cable for my Nagra CDC -> DAVE for the whole weekend. When I went back to the NAGRA ->Yggy at the end, using my incumbent  Monoprice toslink, the Yggy sounded rather unpleasant in comparison, in a slightly glassy, digital way - not a way I had previously considered it.
  
 At that point I was ready to write out a cheque for DAVE. But then I noticed that I had accidentally set the wrong input on the Yggy and I was in fact listening to my Monoprice RCA coax (which I had previously found to be weaker than toslink in this combination). When I switched Yggy to toslink, the sound immediately improved and was closer (but still not equal) to DAVE. Then I switched in the Vodka toslink and wow, my Yggy sounded really close to the DAVE (from an hour ago memory).
  
 I then ran out of time and had to pack up the DAVE (or buy it). On this evidence, I couldn't possibly justify the extra cost of the DAVE. However, I really like it as a package, i.e. all those functions inside such a small footprint. And I have no reason to disbelieve the rave reviews in this thread. So I'll give it the following benefits of doubt: The burn-in time was 5-6 days which is probably still not nearly enough time for it to fully blossom; it was perched on a cardboard box alongside my main stack; I used DAVE's stock power chord  connected to wall socket, whereas YGGY had an audiophile power chord connected to my posh Audience conditioner.
  
 I'd have hoped that a truly great component could rise above such background limitations, but maybe I was being unfair. So I'm thinking of getting it on a longer loan period after the dealer has further burned it in. This time I'll keep it for a couple of weeks so I don't have to rush it like last weekend.
  
 Oh, and I'll be trying the TOTL Audioquest Diamond toslink as well. I can't believe how sensitive my Nagra->Yggy is to the digital interconnect. I've yet to determine if the same applies to DAVE.
  
 So, at least for the moment, DAVE has left the building.


----------



## rgs9200m

Being fairly new to USB audio a couple of years ago when I got my Hugo, I tried a bunch of USB cables from Audioquest, Wireworld (not their top version to be honest), and a couple of others, not knowing what to expect, a bit skeptical. But sure enough, as soon as I heard the AQ diamond, I heard a huge difference (basically refinement, liquidity, and that sense of analog continuity). So I kept the AQ Diamond and never looked back. Now with the Hugo TT, it sounds glorious. (Just my 2 cents here since it was mentioned.)


----------



## Beolab

theattorney said:


> It got complicated and I got busy and still am, so I'll skip my more elaborate jokey reviews and get to the bottom line(s):
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No shadow on you, but some points i have to mention about your review/impressions: 

Your the first of all you are the first person who claims that it is not any diffrence all almost, and it is nothing wrong with that att all, but you don't hear everything in all headphones either or if you dont have a triend ear. 

I can understand that you had a hard time to hear the difference if it was 1 hour in btw the listenings of Yggy and DAVE, because the human brain does not have any good listening-hearing memory at all, so it is very easy to be tricked buy your self when you 
A + B testing a device where it is just subtle diffrence in btw if you go through a separate pre-amp that works as a filter and cut off the greatness in transparency and detail / dept. So in the end a Mono priced DAC can sound as good as a High End priced DAC for example. 

So im sorry, but i think your honest reveiw just confuse people here to give them hope that a $4 grand DAC play almost in the same leauge which maybe is true in your setup, but i am sure you had not felt this in a TOTL rig without separate preamp. 

Then cables... 

Cables, cables, cables... 

I have tested this to the maximum for many years, and i can only say that analog interconnects and in some cases speaker cables can give alternative sound signstures yes, but i have a $1 Toslink / USB / Coax / AES up to AQ Diamond cables, and every level in btw laying around, and i can honestly tell that if just the cable can transport all information as the the production standard demands , then it is almost impossible to hear any diffrence. 

But i have also tested poorly digital Toslink cables that are poorly made and faulty, even AQ / Wire World and Monopticed cables. 
Monopiced cables are falty in a much highe degree than high end priced versions. 

Why do i then spend money of high cost cables, if i cant here any diffrence you may ask yourself? 
It is only because of the ensurance of reliability, where a low cost cable have a much higher risk to be a faulty one. So i can just rest my mind of the interconnects and focus on the the music insted. 

Here is a funny cheap fraud from AudioQuest for exsmple: 

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5540


----------



## Kamil21

theattorney said:


> It got complicated and I got busy and still am, so I'll skip my more elaborate jokey reviews and get to the bottom line(s):
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What a refreshing review, thank you. In the context of your system, I look forward to further developments.


----------



## analogmusic

I think lots of people are not able to appreciate the Chord DAC properly due to the music being played
  
 For me yesterday night I did a test of Hugo vs another hi end digital source, and as Rob Watts promised, I could easily hear the starting and ending of Piano notes, which were blurred in the other DAC.
  
 Game over for the other source.
  
 Simple as that, really.
  
 The Piano is very difficult for a conventional DAC to reproduce properly and will show up weaknesses.
  
 I also have an electric Piano at home, and when I played some chopin through Hugo into my main hi-fi system, my wife came around and asked, is that our daughter playing Piano, she is playing very nicely. 
  
 So the Hugo fooled my wife into thinking a real musical instrument was playing.


----------



## TheAttorney

beolab said:


> No shadow on you, but some points i have to mention about your review/impressions:
> 
> I can understand that you had a hard time to hear the difference if it was 1 hour in btw the listenings of Yggy and DAVE, because the human brain does not have any good listening-hearing memory at all, so it is very easy to be tricked buy your self when you A + B testing a device where it is just subtle diffrence in btw if you go through a separate pre-amp that works as a filter and cut off the greatness in transparency and detail / dept. So in the end a Mono priced DAC can sound as good as a High End priced DAC for example.





> *Attorney: I've been round the block a few times with highend hifi and I do understand the pros and cons of different styles of comparison tests and human fallibility. I'm also not trying to convert anyone that my style is better than anyone elses. But it works for me. If I feel I can tell the difference between the direction of a fuse in an AC circuit, then I'm comfortable that I can spot differences between 2 DACs. I do think though, that on some days, our mood and circumstance make us more discerning than other days. We are after all only human (well, most of us anyway). *





> So im sorry, but i think your honest reveiw just confuse people here to give them hope that a $4 grand DAC play almost in the same leauge which maybe is true in your setup, but i am sure you had not felt this in a TOTL rig without separate preamp.





> *Attorney: I don't understand your comment about a separate preamp. Both DAVE and Yggy went straight into a fully tweaked BHSE/009 combination, which many would consider to be amongst the most resolving headphone setups commercially available. I hope my review has shown that the term YMMV applies to DAVE as it does to any other component. And that no new component will automatically solve all your hifi problems. It's possible it might, but don't assume it.  *





> *I should add that I also briefly tried DAVE's headphone socket with the only proper dynamic headphone I had, the mid-range Senn HD600. This in comparison to the headphone output of my Nagra CDC. These two had quite different sound signatures, but sadly I wasn't blown away by the DAVE in this comparison. The DAVE won on transients and definition, but the Nagra's more forward nature meshes nicely with the HD600's tonal balance. This was a very brief test though. There had been no burn-in for the DAVE's headphone section, which may or may not have been significant..    *
> 
> Then cables...
> 
> ...


----------



## rkt31

some good reviews and positive responses about yggy in these forums but why yggy has no reviews by hi fi magazines and other websites ? every time chord releases a dac and there is some post of comparison between that chord dac and yggy in 
some thread. is not it surprising ? these tactics may increase the sale of yggy to some extent may not change the fact that chord DACs have more advance superior technology. I think to judge the superiority of chord DACs , a busy action scene like attack on nick fury's suv on captain America and winter soldier movie can be a great test. the dac which conveys the realism and dynamism better is definitely superior. I have watched so many movies with Hugo in 2 channel mode, believe me the kind of dynamism and realism Hugo provided is much more superior to DACs based on regular dac chips.


----------



## 6RS

ecwl said:


> And now comes the more controversial part... The reason why I believe Rob Watts is because I hear what he is talking about when I listen to QBD76HDSD or Mojo. I do find the sound more natural, the transients more precise, the lower noise floor of the Mojo leading to a warmer sound with more depth and 3-dimensionality. And when I listen to other DACs, like Sabre chip basd DACs, I find the sound to be brighter or harsher and the instruments not as natural. Or when I listen to a high-end R2R DAC recently, I hear the issues with low-level linearity and distortion of the timbre of some instruments with softer sound/volume depending on whether there are other louder instruments playing simultaneously. But the owners or dealers of these other DACs often find them to be superior to say the Chord Mojo.


 
 I concur. I have a Hugo and the Mojo, and love them both. I wish I had money for a Dave, but it will not happen. 
 I owned quite few DACs, Weiss Dac2, Metrum Octave, Nuforce HDP. All these were good machines. But only with Hugo and Mojo am I truly satisfied, in the sense there is no listening fatigue. And the upgrade bug has left too.


----------



## highendhifi

Picked up an istoek syncro cable-do I recall right that some of you guys have used into power conditioners and also direct into power amp? Thoughts? Sorry if OT


----------



## lovethatsound

rkt31 said:


> some good reviews and positive responses about yggy in these forums but why yggy has no reviews by hi fi magazines and other websites ? every time chord releases a dac and there is some post of comparison between that chord dac and yggy in
> some thread. is not it surprising ? these tactics may increase the sale of yggy to some extent may not change the fact that chord DACs have more advance superior technology. I think to judge the superiority of chord DACs , a busy action scene like attack on nick fury's suv on captain America and winter soldier movie can be a great test. the dac which conveys the realism and dynamism better is definitely superior. I have watched so many movies with Hugo in 2 channel mode, believe me the kind of dynamism and realism Hugo provided is much more superior to DACs based on regular dac chips.


I think the only reason that the yggy has had no reviews in hifi magazines is that the makers of the yggy haven't sent any in for review,indeed that's the only reason.Attorney if you like the sound of the yggy more than the sound of the Dave then indeed you have saved yourself alot of money and all the best to you.People will always have different ideas to how music should sound.


----------



## TheAttorney

rkt31 said:


> some good reviews and positive responses about yggy in these forums but why yggy has no reviews by hi fi magazines and other websites ?





> .... may not change the fact that chord DACs have more advance superior technology.


 
 If you go to the ex-pirates site, the one with the DAC Chart of Awesomeness, you'll see that Yggy is right at the top of the chart, and various Chord products are near the bottom, with lots of criticism particularly thrown at the Hugo. Personally, I don't buy that.
  
 If you go to the Other Site, you'll see generally scathing comments about just about everything and everyone including Chord, although Yggy has it's share of supporters. Personally, I don't like that level of negativity, but if it makes them happy....
  
 Every DAC designer and their followers lay claim to having something superior to everything else. I don't buy that either. I just listen to the end result.
 As I keep saying, I really like the DAVE concept, so I'm still thinking of giving it another try.


----------



## rgs9200m

6rs said:


> I concur. I have a Hugo and the Mojo, and love them both. I wish I had money for a Dave, but it will not happen.
> I owned quite few DACs, Weiss Dac2, Metrum Octave, Nuforce HDP. All these were good machines. But only with Hugo and Mojo am I truly satisfied, in the sense there is no listening fatigue. And the upgrade bug has left too.


 
 If you can manage to fund the Hugo TT, you will be very happy.


----------



## smial1966

It took me quite a while to truly appreciate the sonic attributes of DAVE - probably about a month or around 200 hours of burn-in - as my sonic benchmarks were NOS R2R DAC's and initially I missed that 'analogue warmth'. However, after really listening to the resolving power and musicality of DAVE I'm an FPGA convert, as DAVE sucks the minutiae from recordings and allows a glimpse into the performers true intent without ever sounding harsh (unless the recording is atrocious) or digitally sterile - I'm referring to most Sabre DAC's here.

So please don't judge DAVE after a relatively short listen. Better to let your audio dealer burn DAVE in for a month or so and then revisit it. Use a decent USB cable and you will be rewarded with a sonic tour de force. 




theattorney said:


> If you go to the ex-pirates site, the one with the DAC Chart of Awesomeness, you'll see that Yggy is right at the top of the chart, and various Chord products are near the bottom, with lots of criticism particularly thrown at the Hugo. Personally, I don't buy that.
> 
> If you go to the Other Site, you'll see generally scathing comments about just about everything and everyone including Chord, although Yggy has it's share of supporters. Personally, I don't like that level of negativity, but if it makes them happy....
> 
> ...


----------



## Beolab

bonesy jonesy said:


> Massive Stand...... Ha Ha Ha.
> 
> This is a massive Chord Electronics stand ;




Thats looks more like a small tivoli  

I meant the thickness of the Modular stand by massiveness


----------



## Beolab

smial1966 said:


> It took me quite a while to truly appreciate the sonic attributes of DAVE - probably about a month or around 200 hours of burn-in - as my sonic benchmarks were NOS R2R DAC's and initially I missed that 'analogue warmth'. However, after really listening to the resolving power and musicality of DAVE I'm an FPGA convert, as DAVE sucks the minutiae from recordings and allows a glimpse into the performers true intent without ever sounding harsh (unless the recording is atrocious) or digitally sterile - I'm referring to most Sabre DAC's here.
> 
> So please don't judge DAVE after a relatively short listen. Better to let your audio dealer burn DAVE in for a month or so and then revisit it. Use a decent USB cable and you will be rewarded with a sonic tour de force.




Good input!


----------



## JaZZ

smial1966 said:


> It took me quite a while to truly appreciate the sonic attributes of DAVE - probably about a month or around 200 hours of burn-in - as my sonic benchmarks were NOS R2R DAC's and initially I missed that 'analogue warmth'. However, after really listening to the resolving power and musicality of DAVE I'm an FPGA convert, as DAVE sucks the minutiae from recordings and allows a glimpse into the performers true intent without ever sounding harsh (unless the recording is atrocious) or digitally sterile - I'm referring to most Sabre DAC's here.
> 
> So please don't judge DAVE after a relatively short listen. Better to let your audio dealer burn DAVE in for a month or so and then revisit it. Use a decent USB cable and you will be rewarded with a sonic tour de force.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I agree on this. It's not an analoguish sound by any means, but it's as far from digital sound as I heard digital recordings sound. Since I received DAVE four weeks ago I seem to like it even better every day. Hard to tell if it's due to break-in, too many variables in play (search for optimal EQ settings for every headphone), but I definitely remember that I was slightly irritated by a hint of treble emphasis the first day, which was gone the next day. In any event I'm ready to believe that in the ~170 hours it's been turned on the sound has improved and maybe it's still improving.
  
 Most likely it's the last DAC for me. I don't know where I would want the sound to improve. The most impressive thing is depth. As soon as there's a tiny bit of reverberation in the recording, it creates a phenomenal threedimensionality, and this without any artificiality.
  
 Well, on the headphone side an improvement would certainly be possible (although maybe not at present), but all in all I'm satisfied. At most the problem is to be spoilt by choice.


----------



## highendhifi

In anticipation of DAVE joining me, I spent the morning moving cables and interconnects around in my system along with the addition of an Evo3 syncro cable I picked up. I couldn't put it into my sigmas GII as the female socket on that has horizontal slots rather than the usual IEC vertical arrangement of 3 holes/pins so I put the syncro into my Bryston 14B. Weirdly it seemed to raise audible hum from the amp itself. I've also put my BP26 pre into my Sigmas which it wasn't before and I've also given my Rega Isis some love by giving it the Atlas Asimi XLR and Van den Hul mainsstream BS power cable which were connected to my bcd1. 
Wow. There is such an increase in dynamics, prescence, it seems so much more alive! I can't hear any deliterious effects to the noise floor, quite the opposite so I don't know what the audible hum (when no music and ear next to the amp) is about when before it wasn't audible at all. Weird. 
Can't wait to put DAVE in the mix.....


----------



## lovethatsound

highendhifi said:


> In anticipation of DAVE joining me, I spent the morning moving cables and interconnects around in my system along with the addition of an Evo3 syncro cable I picked up. I couldn't put it into my sigmas GII as the female socket on that has horizontal slots rather than the usual IEC vertical arrangement of 3 holes/pins so I put the syncro into my Bryston 14B. Weirdly it seemed to raise audible hum from the amp itself. I've also put my BP26 pre into my Sigmas which it wasn't before and I've also given my Rega Isis some love by giving it the Atlas Asimi XLR and Van den Hul mainsstream BS power cable which were connected to my bcd1.
> Wow. There is such an increase in dynamics, prescence, it seems so much more alive! I can't hear any deliterious effects to the noise floor, quite the opposite so I don't know what the audible hum (when no music and ear next to the amp) is about when before it wasn't audible at all. Weird.
> Can't wait to put DAVE in the mix.....


Sounds like you've got some sort of earthing problem to me.Try changing the cable,or you could try earthing the amp case.


----------



## buson160man

wow the dave is really cool looking I almost expect a little door to open and tiny little green men to walk out. But humor  aside it looks to be another over the top chord offering .But it is no doubt a exceptional sounding dac for those who have the means  to afford it.


----------



## Crashem

What I am really waiting on is a lampi vs Dave comparison. Two different approaches. Have a Hugo and had a lamp big5. Not really fair comparison. But big5 destroyed the Hugo with DSD and Pcm Came down to a matter of taste. 

Couldn't turn down deal to upgrade to lampi GG. So really curious how GG going to compare to Dave. Much fairer comparison as similar price and Dave has all the supporting systems (ps, etc) you expect in high end dac. So if any has had chance to compare, I'm interested in hearing what you thought.


----------



## Articnoise

crashem said:


> What I am really waiting on is a lampi vs Dave comparison. Two different approaches. Have a Hugo and had a lamp big5. Not really fair comparison. But big5 destroyed the Hugo with DSD and Pcm Came down to a matter of taste.
> 
> Couldn't turn down deal to upgrade to lampi GG. So really curious how GG going to compare to Dave. Much fairer comparison as similar price and Dave has all the supporting systems (ps, etc) you expect in high end dac. So if any has had chance to compare, I'm interested in hearing what you thought.


 
  

 Yes it would be an interesting comparison. 

  

 Is your GG a DAC only or one with headphone out?


----------



## Crashem

articnoise said:


> Yes it would be an interesting comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Dac only. They have a head dac version. But realistically at this level of equipment I don't expect any dac with headphone amp to be competitive to likely headphone amps you would pair it with. I remember people on Hugo thread arguing that it would drive the hd800 as well as anything which is absurd if you have heard a top tier headphone amp. Give me a world class dac and I'll be a happy camper. No need for anything else. In my case, since I mainly use stax, it isn't even an issue.


----------



## JaZZ

crashem said:


> ...realistically at this level of equipment I don't expect any dac with headphone amp to be competitive to likely headphone amps you would pair it with. I remember people on Hugo thread arguing that it would drive the hd800 as well as anything which is absurd if you have heard a top tier headphone amp. Give me a world class dac and I'll be a happy camper. No need for anything else. In my case, since I mainly use stax, it isn't even an issue.


 
  
 Like DAVE, the Hugo isn't a DAC with added headphone amp. The DAC is the headphone amp at the same time. And an excellent one at that. Extremely low output impedance, the same with harmonic distortion, and enough power to drive every dynamic headphone on the planet with ease, except for some demanding exotics.
  
 On the other hand I agree that such add-ons in pure DAC concepts most likely won't do the quality of the high-caliber DAC justice, and be it a Nagra or Lampizator.
  
 With Hugo and DAVE, there's no headphone-amp stage to be bypassed, so amplifying the output signal won't «improve» it. The Hugo sounds as it sounds (when heard through headphones). You seem to believe that «top tier amps» are exemplary when it comes to neutrality. I say the «improvement» they provide in the case of Hugo (if they do) is due to euphonic/synergetic coloration. I'm speaking of own experience and experiments to verify amplifier sound. Sure, expensive amps offer higher chance to at least sound more transparent than cheaper ones, but they're not necessarily less colored.
  
 I really hope you won't add an amp to DAVE with dynamic headphones! (This although its output power isn't miles higher than Hugo's.) You'd sacrifice a lot of its merits. If you need a correction of sonic balance (which is always a possibility if not even a must), there are more plausible tools than amplifiers.
  
 So have fun with your Lampizator or DAVE anyway!


----------



## lovethatsound

jazz said:


> Like DAVE, the Hugo isn't a DAC with added headphone amp. The DAC is the headphone amp at the same time. And an excellent one at that. Extremely low output impedance, the same with harmonic distortion, and enough power to drive every dynamic headphone on the planet with ease, except for some demanding exotics.
> 
> On the other hand I agree that such add-ons in pure DAC concepts most likely won't do the quality of the high-caliber DAC justice, and be it a Nagra or Lampizator.
> 
> ...


Look JaZZ
You've use EQ on your headphones with the Dave,which is really just as bad as someone else using a headphone amp according to you . I've had my Dave for about 8 weeks now,and i am in no doubt that my hd800 sound great just using Dave,and cardas clear cable,but I've also been using my hdvd800 amp with Dave as well(fully balance)and if I'm honest about it,i think it adds to the daves sound without losing anything.Theirs nothing wrong with using a headphone amp or EQ if that's the way you like it,but you can not tell someone not to use a headphone amp ,when you have used EQ to change the sound yourself.Dave is a great dac,maybe one of the best dacs out there,let's all enjoy it,the way we want to enjoy it,without telling other people that their way is wrong


----------



## JaZZ

lovethatsound said:


> Look JaZZ
> You've use EQ on your headphones with the Dave,which is really just as bad as someone else using a headphone amp according to you . I've had my Dave for about 8 weeks now,and i am in no doubt that my hd800 sound great just using Dave,and cardas clear cable,but I've also been using my hdvd800 amp with Dave as well(fully balance)and if I'm honest about it,i think it adds to the daves sound without losing anything.Theirs nothing wrong with using a headphone amp or EQ if that's the way you like it,but you can not tell someone not to use a headphone amp ,when you have used EQ to change the sound yourself.Dave is a great dac,maybe one of the best dacs out there,let's all enjoy it,the way we want to enjoy it,without telling other people that their way is wrong


 
  
_Hi Lovethatsound_
  
 I'm not saying using a headphone amp is bad, but it is worse than using an equalizer for adjusting the sonic balance to your needs if you want maximum accuracy – to hear how the recording is meant to sound.
  
 Can you tell me what's so bad about equalizing (in the digital domain)? If you want a – passably – flat over-all (!) frequency response on your ears, you can't do better. Also bear in mind that by doing so you also compensate for the phase distortion accompanying the humps and dips of your headphones.
  
 I'll expand on the subject a bit more. I own an old «semiprofessional» analogue Technics equalizer (SH-9010), 2-channel, 5-band, fully parametric. That was during my speaker-builder area. It turned out to be only of use for helping with crossover-network tuning. As a tool for improving the sound during listening to music it failed miserably: reduced transparency, omnipresent roughness. You must know that analogue equalizers introduce a bunch of electronics components into the signal path. That's a lesson one can learn from them: electronics components influence the sound. In fact there's no exception (according to my experience and experiments as a long-time audiophile fanatic). I happen to share Rob Watts' audio philosophy since quite a while, without knowing anything from Chord. Now, with the free equalizers that come with computers and DAPs, I'm glad to realize that they don't have any adverse effect of the likes of my Technics equalizer. In fact there are none I'm able to detect – which was to be expected, actually.
  
 When I say «electronics components», one could even include cables and even plugs. A funny thing which almost makes me shake my head myself is the double-adapter thing I sometimes attach to the Silver Dragon cable of my HifiMan HE1000: a 1/4 to 1/8" adapter attached to an 1/8 to 1/4" adapter, hence a gold-plated block of metal (?). It creates a mild sleekness and almost electrostatic halo around treble tones, which I sometimes like better that the slight harshness from the HE1000/Silver Dragon. Nowadays, after having found my ideal EQ curve, I don't use it anymore, though (fingers crossed). But maybe the new cable I'm planning to make will make the sound even better...
  
 Certainly I was a bit overstating when I wrote an amp sacrifices «a lot» of DAVE's merits – after all they shine through my electrostats as well. But I wish to have an electrostatic amp acting as wire without gain – like for my dynamic headphones – nonetheless.


----------



## lovethatsound

jazz said:


> _Hi Lovethatsound_
> 
> I'm not saying using a headphone amp is bad, but it is worse than using an equalizer for adjusting the sonic balance to your needs if you want maximum accuracy – to hear how the recording is meant to sound.
> 
> ...


Hi jaZz
All I'm saying JaZZ,is that you have used EQ,which is altering the sound yourself,and then your telling people not use an headphone amp because it alters the sound,well it just doesn't make sense to me.How can you tell someone not to use a headphone amp and then you use EQ,which alters the sound to your liking . I've got nothing against you using EQ,but you can't tell other people not to use a headphone amp when you have altered the sound already, it's like shooting yourself in the foot . I'm not going to say anymore about this subject now,I've made my point and hope you can understand it . I'm glad you're enjoying the Dave the way YOU want to enjoy it and hope you have many a happy hour with it


----------



## JaZZ

lovethatsound said:


> Hi jaZZ
> All I'm saying JaZZ, is that you have used EQ,which is altering the sound yourself,and then your telling people not use an headphone amp because it alters the sound,well it just doesn't make sense to me.How can you tell someone not to use a headphone amp and then you use EQ,which alters the sound to your liking . I've got nothing against you using EQ,but you can't tell other people not to use a headphone amp when you have altered the sound already, it's like shooting yourself in the foot . I'm not going to say anymore about this subject now,I've made my point and hope you can understand it . I'm glad you're enjoying the Dave the way YOU want to enjoy it and hope you have many a happy hour with it


 
  
_Hey Lovethatsound_
  
 I'm not against altering the sound to one's liking – quite the opposite, I even advocate it. I'm just proposing a better approach (as I see it, in line with Rob Watts) for those who want maximum transparency – like me.
  
 If I can I adapt the sound of my headphones to my ears by modifying them – always in the interest of accuracy and transparency. And of course I alter the sound of the recordings (crossfeed [mandatory because of hearing problems!], slight shift of sonic balance if necessary) and finally the signal from my digital source (DAP, computer) via equalizer, adapted to the headphone used by means of customized presets. Not to forget headphone cables and the ones between DAVE and Stax amp.


----------



## Crashem

jazz said:


> Like DAVE, the Hugo isn't a DAC with added headphone amp. The DAC is the headphone amp at the same time. And an excellent one at that. Extremely low output impedance, the same with harmonic distortion, and enough power to drive every dynamic headphone on the planet with ease, except for some demanding exotics.
> 
> On the other hand I agree that such add-ons in pure DAC concepts most likely won't do the quality of the high-caliber DAC justice, and be it a Nagra or Lampizator.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I get the design of DAVE/Hugo.  The opamps that bring the signal up to line level are the same ones that provide the headphone amplification and volume is increased in the digital domain.  So, in that way, there is no headphone amp per say.
  
 However, I do have a problem looking purely at measurements in determining what is being done to the sound.  Measurements are important, but I don't think they begin to capture the entire story.  Some of the most neutral devices I have heard sound like absolute crap.  The fact is the top delta sigma dacs measure really well but sound off to me.  Typically people try to explain that by saying these other measurements are the ones that matter.  Hugo/DAVE is making such an argument that their WTA filter and increased "tap length" make a difference because we can actually hear the difference in timing of that level.  Reality is no scientific proof either way if we actually can.  But given that increasing tap lengths do seem to make Chord's DAC better, I am inclined to agree.  In other words, I used my ears to decide end of day.
  
 With STAX, I don't have that dilemma.  But with the Hugo at least, my amps crushed the headphone output on the Hugo.  Call it expectation bias. Call it coloration I love. Or call it measurements beyond what is normally measured.  Hopefully Ill have a chance to audition/use the Dave.  Ill definitely try all possible outputs including built in.


----------



## CoLdAsSauLt

jazz said:


> _Hey Lovethatsound_
> 
> I'm not against altering the sound to one's liking – quite the opposite, I even advocate it. I'm just proposing a better approach (as I see it, in line with Rob Watts) for those who want maximum transparency – like me.
> 
> If I can I adapt the sound of my headphones to my ears by modifying them – always in the interest of accuracy and transparency. And of course I alter the sound of the recordings (crossfeed [mandatory because of hearing problems!], slight shift of sonic balance if necessary) and finally the signal from my digital source (DAP, computer) via equalizer, adapted to the headphone used by means of customized presets. Not to forget headphone cables and the ones between DAVE and Stax amp.




Hi Jazz

When your headphones are driven to the maximum of their capabilities, I very much agree with your statement. However, not only HE-6 will benefit from a more capable amp. Most Sennheisers, but imo also a lot of Audeze cans, certainly my LCD-3F, scale very well with their amp. So let's assume for now that there is still some room for improvement in driving capabilities and tight grip on the headphone driver, especially with Hugo (haven't heard Dave, but Hugo is less capable on paper + to the experience of some people who did hear both, so by definition this verified difference is also Hugo's minimal room for improvement).

If you only want to change tonal balance, e.g. easing out a classic HD800 6kHz spike, EQing is indeed the most clean way to adjust the sound. Lots of people who frown upon EQ, are constantly looking for the right gear to tailor their sound on a pure hardware level. They often fail to see however that they are adding a whole lot of different influencing factors too, like some harmonic distortion (which can be very pleasing nonetheless, cfr. classic tube amps).

However, when a headphone is not driven to its maximum capabilities, a better amp might add 5% accurateness or betterness by having better control over the headphone, while only losing 2% due to the added electronics, harmonic distortion, coloration and other polluting factors that are inherent to the amp.

So in the end, you still gain 3% by adding a better amp. (Don't quote me on the number, they are just an example) I think this might be what Lovethatsound is experiencing...


----------



## Kamil21

Review Alert
  
 Here is a new review in Japanese on Dave. I had to use Google to translate it.
  
 http://dime.jp/genre/232350/1/


----------



## metalboss

Cool Unboxing of Chord Dave


----------



## lovethatsound

metalboss said:


> Cool Unboxing of Chord Dave


Nicely Done


----------



## Beolab

Great review!
  
 The thread died suddenly ?=)


----------



## lovethatsound

beolab said:


> Great review!
> 
> The thread died suddenly ?=)i


Have you got your Dave yet?
I suppose people are too busy enjoying their Dave,plus its not cheap.


----------



## Beolab

Hi

Not yet sadly, 1,5 weeks left untill the second batch are ready for shipping according to Chord. 

So just a little more waiting, then a 200 hour burn in until a serious listening session can take place


----------



## highendhifi

I was thinking the same thing...
I only put my order in last week so I guess I'll be in that same batch?
I kinda need a little DAVE praise and feedback as I'm really enjoying my Rega Isis and almost don't want something that complicates my listening unnecessarily.... First world problems....


----------



## Beolab

highendhifi said:


> I was thinking the same thing...
> I only put my order in last week so I guess I'll be in that same batch?
> I kinda need a little DAVE praise and feedback as I'm really enjoying my Rega Isis and almost don't want something that complicates my listening unnecessarily.... First world problems....




Okey, then your probably up for the third batch depending on how many they produce in the second batch. 

I ordered mine for more than 4,5 month ago, but the "big selling" countries like UK / AUS / Asia / US got the the highest priorety, then the rest will receives their units.


----------



## Christer

beolab said:


> Great review!
> 
> The thread died suddenly ?=)


 

 I haven't read the review.
 But yesterday I had my first three hours with the demo DAVE at AV ONE in Singapore via headphones direct,either my HD800 or HE1000.
 For about an hour before connecting DAVE  I was listening to HE1000 via either my own Hugo or Mojo and found both very good  indeed regarding size and cost . But after a couple of hours of listening to my hi res masterfiles  ranging from 24/48 to DXD pcm and both DSD 64 and DSD 128, via DAVE it was really  disappointing to go back to either of the two.
 Yes I said I was baffled at how good little Mojo sounded on the Mojo thread.
 But now I have to admit I was  simply unprepared for the veritable  MAGNITUDE of improvement via DAVE on material I both  know very well  live  from recording sessions plus various other classical music  albums like the two most recent ones from BSO LIVE,where I have never even been to Symphony Hall in Boston .But I do know very well how and orchestra sounds in a good hall.And this happens to be one of the world's best orchestras  superbly recorded in one of the world's best halls.
 I already considered both the Wagner/Sibelius  24/96 release and the most recent Schostakowich's 10th Symphony exceptionally well made recordings via  my Hugo. But via DAVE I have to say that I felt almost transported/teleported to the venue. It was  almost uncanny. The realism and lifelike timbre and tonality  and  smoothness and spatial depth  was spine-tingling to say the least.
 To mention only two of many  superb recordings I got eargasmic spine-tingling sensations from via DAVE.
 Without getting too longwinded ,I can safely state after only  a few hours on a demo unit, that I have NEVER BEFORE heard such  realistic orchestral  sound from ANY other consumer DAC.And yes it is galvanically isolated and I used USB 2 on my MBP without any issues whatsoever. Pure bliss on well made recordings and bluntly revealing the shortcomings of bad ones like SONY's  recent 24/192 The Marriage of Figaro which  is so terribly close /spotmic'd and multimic'd that it sounds  pretty horrible via DAVE and headphones.
  
 With well recorded albums Mic-feed at sessions is the most relevant comparison imo.
  
 My only reservation about DAVE would be:
 OMG ,why does it have to be so b..... expensive?
 I don't know how I will be able to buy both DAVE and the  house I also need to buy this year, without absolutely ruining myself?


----------



## bmichels

christer said:


> I haven't read the review.
> But yesterday I had my first three hours with the demo DAVE at AV ONE in Singapore via headphones direct,either my HD800 or HE1000.
> For about an hour before connecting DAVE  I was listening to HE1000 via either my own Hugo or Mojo and found both very good  indeed regarding size and cost . But after a couple of hours of listening to my hi res masterfiles  ranging from 24/48 to DXD pcm and both DSD 64 and DSD 128, via DAVE it was really  disappointing to go back to either of the two.
> Yes I said I was baffled at how good little Mojo sounded on the Mojo thread.
> ...


 
 very  encouraging.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Did you listened to DAVE with the HE1000 direct from DAVE's headphone-out ?  Was DAVE really powerful enough to drive the HE1000 with authority ?


----------



## Beolab

christer said:


> I haven't read the review.
> But yesterday I had my first three hours with the demo DAVE at AV ONE in Singapore via headphones direct,either my HD800 or HE1000.
> For about an hour before connecting DAVE  I was listening to HE1000 via either my own Hugo or Mojo and found both very good  indeed regarding size and cost . But after a couple of hours of listening to my hi res masterfiles  ranging from 24/48 to DXD pcm and both DSD 64 and DSD 128, via DAVE it was really  disappointing to go back to either of the two.
> Yes I said I was baffled at how good little Mojo sounded on the Mojo thread.
> ...




This is great input and info! 

This is truly a great DAC


----------



## JaZZ

bmichels said:


> ...Was DAVE really powerful enough to drive the HE1000 with authority ?


 
  
 To my ears it leaves no wishes.
  


beolab said:


> This is truly a great DAC


 
  
 Yes, it is – in every sense. Resolution (!), threedimensionality, dynamics, sonic colors, realism...


----------



## audiobill

I don't recall seeing this review by Dirk Sommer in HiFiStatement posted, you can use Google for a rough translation. Apologies in advance if I missed a previous post of it.


----------



## Rob Watts

christer said:


> I haven't read the review.
> But yesterday I had my first three hours with the demo DAVE at AV ONE in Singapore via headphones direct,either my HD800 or HE1000.
> For about an hour before connecting DAVE  I was listening to HE1000 via either my own Hugo or Mojo and found both very good  indeed regarding size and cost . But after a couple of hours of listening to my hi res masterfiles  ranging from 24/48 to DXD pcm and both DSD 64 and DSD 128, via DAVE it was really  disappointing to go back to either of the two.
> Yes I said I was baffled at how good little Mojo sounded on the Mojo thread.
> ...


 
  
 On price with Dave it was fairly simple. I designed Dave to suit a sound quality and a performance goal - my own targets, not something Chord was setting. There was no price point set or determined - everything was engineering driven. Once the design was finished, Chord added up the BOM, used their usual multipliers, and that was the price.
  
 But I have just gotten back on a small press and dealers trip, and that was interesting. We popped into a dealer who had sold a few Mojo's, and we had a few hours spare. He was a tube/vinyl very high end dealer and I happened to have a Dave in my bag (I hand carry Dave with me on my travels for music in the hotel). So we listened to it, and we got the same reaction you had - every piece of music was spine tingling good - even 1960's Rolling Stones. The dealer said he had never heard digital ever sound like that - indeed, he said it was actually better than his beloved vinyl!
  
 So pretty chuffed by that, we went onto the next meeting with a dealer that stocks Dave, whereupon we were told in no uncertain terms that Dave was just way too cheap. He claimed that nobody will compare a Dave at $13k against a $50k DAC, that to say Dave was better was ridiculous as the price was wrong. It can sound better, measure better, that just didn't matter as the price was wrong, and everybody measures by price. Telling this to an engineering driven company (John was with me) was, shall we say - somewhat disheartening. Ho hum.
  
 On another issue - you mention some high res recordings - now my experience of hi res is mixed. Sometimes it can sound much worse, usually a bit better than redbook, sometimes it can sound extraordinary. What are your best recordings that work sonically and musically?
  
 Thanks Rob


----------



## lovethatsound

rob watts said:


> On price with Dave it was fairly simple. I designed Dave to suit a sound quality and a performance goal - my own targets, not something Chord was setting. There was no price point set or determined - everything was engineering driven. Once the design was finished, Chord added up the BOM, used their usual multipliers, and that was the price.
> 
> But I have just gotten back on a small press and dealers trip, and that was interesting. We popped into a dealer who had sold a few Mojo's, and we had a few hours spare. He was a tube/vinyl very high end dealer and I happened to have a Dave in my bag (I hand carry Dave with me on my travels for music in the hotel). So we listened to it, and we got the same reaction you had - every piece of music was spine tingling good - even 1960's Rolling Stones. The dealer said he had never heard digital ever sound like that - indeed, he said it was actually better than his beloved vinyl!
> 
> ...


That's a nice story Rob about them 2 dealers,i think you've said before on here that some audiophiles think with there wallets and not there ears.I don't think you should feel disheartened because alot more people will buy Dave,which also means alot more people are going to hear the fruits of your lifes work,which must be very satisfying for you Rob . I'm very sure when all the great reviews of Dave come out,it might change the market for high end dacs.


----------



## analogmusic

That's the issue about 50 K USD dacs and greedy dealers
  
  I have no desire to listen to them as I don't understand the high price but not so great performance. 50K USD will buy a very nice turntable and more importantly lots and lots of records.
  
 So the DAVE at  8K GBP is still aspirational (maybe for others- it is still too high for my wallet), but 50K USD is nonsense to me
  
 And Rob said it himself, even the Mojo can be compared to that 50 K USD DAC and will beat it.
  
 People who measure an audio component by price alone, are either tone deaf, don't understand the technology and most of all _don't understand music_, and as the old saying goes "a fool and his money are soon parted" - definitely the audiofool and his cash are parted quickly.


----------



## highendhifi

I'm really looking forward to my DAVE, I needed a good story, thanks, Rob. 
My £2K bryston bcd1 killed my £6K Mcintosh, and my £6K Rega Isis similarly beats £15K+ players from esoteric, dcs etc in my view. Money is one of those subjective variables which influence our perception of the world. Research suggests that the more you pay, the more you value and the better the experience of it-but only up to a point. The rationalisation works harder when you buy something that cost a lot to you but doesn't really deliver-that's when people search out reviews etc, AFTER their purchase to reassure themselves. You get a lot less justification behaviours post sale when the product is "believed" in. But yes, money does influence perception in all sorts of ways...


----------



## bmichels

Any comments on *DAVE with the HE-X direct on DAVE's Headphone-out ?*   right now I use HE-X with HUGO or EC445...


----------



## Kakki

Would somebody kindly explain how we should read following specification of Dave and would kindly explain how good it is?
  
 Dynamic range at -60 dBFS 1kHz -127 dBA A wt
  
 I was told from one of our hifi forum member that this specification is not so good when compared with other DACs and was wondering if that was true.
 But am not so technically strong and would appreciate if someone would provide easy-to-understand explanation about it. Thanks.


----------



## Rob Watts

kakki said:


> Would somebody kindly explain how we should read following specification of Dave and would kindly explain how good it is?
> 
> Dynamic range at -60 dBFS 1kHz -127 dBA A wt
> 
> ...


 
 People get confused with DR - somebody once said that Dave was poor compared to some silly DAC - they claimed 160dB - it turned out that the DAC measurement was the noise floor. Dave noise floor is -180 dB and has zero measurable noise floor modulation. Here are some recent measurements:
  





  
 No other DAC comes anywhere close to Dave's measured performance. As too DAC dynamic range, its a pretty meaningless number - it just tells you the residual hiss level. What is more important is noise floor modulation, of which Dave has none, and small signal distortion, which again Dave has none.
  
 Rob


----------



## Kakki

rob watts said:


> People get confused with DR - somebody once said that Dave was poor compared to some silly DAC - they claimed 160dB - it turned out that the DAC measurement was the noise floor. Dave noise floor is -180 dB and has zero measurable noise floor modulation. Here are some recent measurements:
> 
> No other DAC comes anywhere close to Dave's measured performance. As too DAC dynamic range, its a pretty meaningless number - it just tells you the residual hiss level. What is more important is noise floor modulation, of which Dave has none, and small signal distortion, which again Dave has none.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Thanks Rob, for your prompt response, the recent / detailed measurements, and clear answer!
 Really appreciated. I would convey your information to our hifi forum. Thank you.


----------



## STR-1

Getting increasingly frustrated that the London stockists of Dave keep selling their demo
models before I get the chance to listen. But then I suppose I might try to persuade them to sell to me after a demo. Come on you lucky guys who already own a Dave, is the gap between TT and Dave bigger than gap between Hugo and TT?


----------



## JaZZ

str-1 said:


> Getting increasingly frustrated that the London stockists of Dave keep selling their demo
> models before I get the chance to listen. But then I suppose I might try to persuade them to sell to me after a demo. Come on you lucky guys who already own a Dave, is the gap between TT and Dave bigger than gap between Hugo and TT?


 
  
 Sorry, I haven't heard the TT.
  


beolab said:


> I ordered mine for more than 4,5 month ago, but the "big selling" countries like UK / AUS / Asia / US got the the highest priorety, then the rest will receive their units.


 
  
 That's odd. Why should Switzerland be considered one of the most important markets? I could have bought two or three by the end of 2015, in silver and/or black. Without ordering.


----------



## Beolab

jazz said:


> Sorry, I haven't heard the TT.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Where have i wroted Switzerland JaZZ ? 

US= USA 
AUS= Australia
UK= United Kingdom 
Asia= Asia continent.


----------



## Mavwong

I come from auralic vega. Straight jump to Dave once I heard it. This could explain why demo set keep flying off the shelf. Before I hear the Dave. I have no intention to buy it frankly speaking. I under estimate the ability of Dave. The most high end dac / transport combos ever heard is emmlabs dac2x. It's good but it's usb input failed big time. I have no idea how other 50k dac sound but hack care. If I could get such a great sounding dac with 12kusd, I would be more than happy. I know even at this price, many would not be able to afford it. But I think it's still a reachable price point for many others. I would say Chord and Rob did a great job advancing Dac market and take lead. 

Just buy what you can afford now and keep saving for Dave.


----------



## JaZZ

beolab said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > That's odd. Why should Switzerland be considered one of the most important markets? I could have bought two or three by the end of 2015, in silver and/or black. Without ordering.
> ...


 
  
 You haven't. But apparently Switzerland has been served as well as the mentioned countries – otherwise I wouldn't own a DAVE since early January. And you're still waiting for yours despite having placed an order long time ago...


----------



## Beolab

jazz said:


> You haven't. But apparently Switzerland has been served as well as the mentioned countries – otherwise I wouldn't own a DAVE since early January. And you're still waiting for yours despite having placed an order long time ago... :blink:




Okey! Sorry JaZZ  

A little OT but does someone have a link to share where you can sell your used Chord products if we dont have any luck at HeadFi, where folks are selling / buying Chord gear, because here in Scandinavia it is a totally dead market for pre-owned Chord products 

So i thaught if it where a bigger UK site where you can sell/ trade your Chord product ?


----------



## highendhifi

beolab said:


> Okey! Sorry JaZZ
> 
> A little OT but does someone have a link to share where you can sell your used Chord products if we dont have any luck at HeadFi, where folks are selling / buying Chord gear, because here in Scandinavia it is a totally dead market for pre-owned Chord products
> 
> So i thaught if it where a bigger UK site where you can sell/ trade your Chord product ?



Not sure about a chord specialist site but I hear good things about 2ndhandhifi co uk. Never personally used them so don't know much though


----------



## rgs9200m

There is a lot of activity and posted questions on audiogon for a used hugo on sale.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

beolab said:


> Okey! Sorry JaZZ
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 HiFiWigwam and PinkFish Media are two UK HiFi websites that have a private classified section.   Or if you want a possible quicker sale....ebay UK (although you have to swallow the 10% ebay charge ! ).


----------



## mslatr

What i am most curious about is whether DAVE is noticeably better across all types of music? That is, do I need to listen only to classical or acoustic music to enjoy the benefits of the DAVE or will it enhance the enjoyment of all files? That is, say I were to listen to something like Adele's 25 or the new Coldplay album (examples only, please don't flame  am trying to pick typical modern music) would the difference be noticeable? While my first choice is to listen to well recorded, engaging, music sometimes you just want to rock and those options aren't available.
  
 Also, I'd be curious to hear the gear that Mr. Watts uses to monitor the output from the DAVE on the road and at home. What speakers or headphones does he use in his everyday or critical listening?
  
 Finally, if I understand MQA properly it adjusts the playback for the A/D converter used in the preparation of the file. Is it possible to program DAVE to make a similar adjustment? By this i mean not MQA implementation, but improvement of the sound by overcoming limitations or biases introduced by the A/D converter used.
  
 Waiting for the one US demo unit to find its way to Chicago so I can give it a whirl...in the meantime I would love to see a full comparison to HUGO and the TT.
  
 thanks.


----------



## Beolab

mslatr said:


> What i am most curious about is whether DAVE is noticeably better across all types of music? That is, do I need to listen only to classical or acoustic music to enjoy the benefits of the DAVE or will it enhance the enjoyment of all files? That is, say I were to listen to something like Adele's 25 or the new Coldplay album (examples only, please don't flame  am trying to pick typical modern music) would the difference be noticeable? While my first choice is to listen to well recorded, engaging, music sometimes you just want to rock and those options aren't available.
> 
> Also, I'd be curious to hear the gear that Mr. Watts uses to monitor the output from the DAVE on the road and at home. What speakers or headphones does he use in his everyday or critical listening?
> 
> ...




From what Rob and from all personal impressions has described, the DAVE is as transparent and musical that it is technical possible today, so it is neutral in that aspect, very revealing to Commercial-Radio -Loudness-boasted-recorded music-with-limited-Dynamic-Range. 

It is a Reference DAC so its not gonna forgive or smoothen out any flaws in the music. 
So it is up to Adele and Coldplay mastering technichans to learn to not put on max Loudness on every singel radio hit. 

Here you can search in the database for music with high DR: 

http://dr.loudness-war.info/

I have found out that music with great recordings does 90% of the time have a great DR value, so it seems to go hand in hand. 

And you can also see that many of the recorded tracks in the Database from HD tracks are have less DR than the org. CD / Vinyl recording.


----------



## ubs28

beolab said:


> From what Rob and from all personal impressions has described, the DAVE is as transparent and musical that it is technical possible today, so it is neutral in that aspect, very revealing to Commercial-Radio -Loudness-boasted-recorded music-with-limited-Dynamic-Range.
> 
> It is a Reference DAC so its not gonna forgive or smoothen out any flaws in the music.
> So it is up to Adele and Coldplay mastering technichans to learn to not put on max Loudness on every singel radio hit.
> ...


 

 How much better does the $10k+ DAVE sound over the Chord Hugo? Is it 2 times better?
  
 I can't demo it anywhere so I have to buy it without hearing it.


----------



## Beolab

ubs28 said:


> How much better does the $10k+ DAVE sound over the Chord Hugo? Is it 2 times better?
> 
> I can't demo it anywhere so I have to buy it without hearing it.




Thats a good question for @DaveRedRef-III or another user who have received it and who had the chance to direct compare it with the TT. 

My estimation is at least more of the same characteristics that the TT got, with more refinement and resolution on another level.


----------



## PANURUS

Thank to Beolab for http://dr.loudness-war.info/


----------



## Beolab

panurus said:


> Thank to Beolab for http://dr.loudness-war.info/




Im glad to share and help ! 

This is a huge key for good sound in the first step.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

ubs28 said:


> How much better does the $10k+ DAVE sound over the Chord Hugo? Is it 2 times better?
> 
> I can't demo it anywhere so I have to buy it without hearing it.


 

  I have not tried the Hugo but The QBD76 HDSD has been said by many people to be significantly superior to the Hugo despite less taps. I own the Red Reference III and that is almost identical except it improves upon the QBD76 HDSD in a couple of specs. Now in comparing Dave against the RR3 - it is quieter, more detailed, more focussed and purer sounding. The resolution level is a magnitude over the RR3 imo. I think direct comparison against the Hugo would likely stand out significantly and particularly in terms of dynamics because even against the RR3, DAVE stood out as far superior in this respect. For headphone listening this may not be quite so big a deal but if you listen via speakers I would expect the difference to be akin to listening to a full scale 3 way speaker compared to a monitor. The monitor will have detail but will not carry the scale and heft of the music. Its hard to put a scale on how much better the DAVE is compared to something like the RR3 (a £16k transport and dac) but I would venture it to be certainly twice as good. In terms of dynamics compared to the Hugo I would expect a direct comparison to show DAVE is playing in a completely different league. Perhaps as much as 4 divisions apart.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

One thing I forgot to mention is DAVE's killer attribute - Timing. This is an aspect of music that shouldn't really come down to 'how many times better is it?' With something as important as Timing I think one should be asking "Does it have real world timing or not?" If we want something close to 'Real world' timing then DAVE is the only game in town right now for digital imo. You could spend almost as much buying a mega clock alone to link with a DSD flag waving manufacturers stack and still fail to deliver real world timing. How do you put a price on the experience of real world musicality? In my opinion that is almost priceless.


----------



## Rob Watts

It was the perception of timing - being able to hear the starting and stopping of notes - that really surprised me with Hugo, as this quality was a surprise, and I was not sure where it was coming from.
  
 Dave primarily was about finding what the factor was that I had done with Hugo, then maximize it. I am glad to say I did indeed end up understanding what this factor is in technical terms.
  
 Off to Can-jam Singapore now!
  
 Rob


----------



## Mython

rob watts said:


> we were told in no uncertain terms that Dave was just way too cheap. He claimed that nobody will compare a Dave at $13k against a $50k DAC, that to say Dave was better was ridiculous as the price was wrong. It can sound better, measure better, that just didn't matter as the price was wrong, and everybody measures by price. Telling this to an engineering driven company (John was with me) was, shall we say - somewhat disheartening. Ho hum.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Rob


 
  
  
 Please don't be too disheartened, Rob.
  
 Given time, your product will undoubtedly permeate the consciousness of audiophiles around the world - even those with the deepest pockets.
  
 Every now and then, a product enters the marketplace and doesn't tessellate with the existing status quo. It takes time for the old status quo to adapt (both the retailers _and_ their customers).
 It doesn't necessarily mean that a mistake has been made with the product (or _marketing of _said product) that is causing the paradigm shift.
  
  
 I, for one, would much rather see you design products that sincerely drive the state-of-the-art, _*and*_ the status quo of the marketplace, forwards, rather than using your talents to drive the state-of-the-art forwards whilst tarnishing your achievements by cynically playing the disingenuous game of 'milking' audiophiles for as much as possible - an approach many fat dinosaurs in the industry still short-sightedly worship.
  
 So what if a few snobbish dinosaurs deride or snub your efforts?
  
 They will be _more than outweighed_ by newcomers who could never aspire to afford a $50,000-$100,000 DAC, but who may perhaps be able to save and stretch to a $10,000 Chord DAC, and whose musical horizons will be inspired and expanded in a way never before within their grasp.
  
 Satisfying a_ few_ snobbish dinosaurs, or expanding the horizons and enjoyment of _many_ potential newcomers - I know which I would feel more satisfied by, if I were in your position


----------



## m0nster

Does anyone know where I could listen to a Dave in Switzerland? I will probably never be able to afford one, but after reading here I would love to be dreaming for a while!


----------



## JaZZ

m0nster said:


> Does anyone know where I could listen to a Dave in Switzerland? I will probably never be able to afford one, but after reading here I would love to be dreaming for a while!


 
  
 I got mine from here. Bought it blind, though.


----------



## m0nster

jazz said:


> I got mine from here. Bought it blind, though.




That's the only Swiss retailer I found too. I may ask them if there's a chance to listen to it. Thank you for your help, Jazz!


----------



## Hiyono

What setting did you guys prefer for the cross feed with headphones? 

If Robb Watts could explain what cross feed 0-4 do? I would really appreciate it. 

I been playing with Dave directly to a pass lab xa30.5 + speakers. Just moved it back to headphone setup. Haven't gotten to play around much yet.


----------



## Beolab

Its like buying a new Ferrari or Bentley , you just buy it , like the rest of us


----------



## lovethatsound

hiyono said:


> What setting did you guys prefer for the cross feed with headphones?
> 
> I been playing with Dave directly to a pass lab xa30.5 + speakers. Just moved it back to headphone setup. Haven't gotten to play around
> much yet.


Hi m8
I don't use the cross feed,prefer the sound as it is☺


----------



## Beolab

@Rob Watts 

May i ask what type / brand of headphones / speakers you where using during the development of DAVE ?


----------



## Sonic77

I am so happy with the Dave Dac, it sounds just awesome! I'm done as far as the dac hunt goes or all those little usb fixer thingys, I bought so many dacs, and so many filters, usb enhancers or fixers, or changers, or whatever they are, it was getting ridiculous. I'm done. I never said that and meant it, but now I'm positive, if this is my last dac, I could live with the Dave dac forever, it's that good, in my opinion.
 I bought this Dac having never heard it, but knew and owned the Hugo. A couple of years ago I talked to John Franks at the Los Angeles can jam, I talked to him for several minutes about the new dac (Dave), and was sold right there, and couldn't wait to get the Dave. Now that I've had it for several weeks now, I think it's burned in, I can't stop listening to the Dave.
 So, if you are thinking about the Dave dac, just know, I've listened and owned several dacs and the Dave just is so much better, it's not even close.
 The high end audio guy where I bought the Dave was comparing it to dacs that were several thousand dollars more and kept saying to me, you were smart to get the Dave. I will not mention those dacs, but you can guess.


----------



## Rob Watts

My reference loudspeakers is unusual; its made by Velour a small German company. I do not think they are made any more. The speakers had very good sound-stage depth, with an excellent bass for a relatively small loudspeaker. Headphones - Noble K10, Audeze, and Nighthawks. The majority of the listening tests was on loudspeakers.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

hiyono said:


> What setting did you guys prefer for the cross feed with headphones?
> 
> If Robb Watts could explain what cross feed 0-4 do? I would really appreciate it.
> 
> I been playing with Dave directly to a pass lab xa30.5 + speakers. Just moved it back to headphone setup. Haven't gotten to play around much yet.


 
 0 is no crossfeed; 1 is min, 3 is max. It is the same as Hugo.
  
 Rob


----------



## JaZZ

hiyono said:


> What setting did you guys prefer for the cross feed with headphones?
> 
> If Robb Watts could explain what cross feed 0-4 do? I would really appreciate it.
> 
> I been playing with Dave directly to a pass lab xa30.5 + speakers. Just moved it back to headphone setup. Haven't gotten to play around much yet.


 
  
 Hi Hiyono
  
 Roughly spoken, crossfeed monophonizes low frequencies – the lower, the more crosstalk between the channels, up to 100%. Stage 1 has the lowest low-pass frequency for the crosstalk, stage 3 the highest – it's meant for the most critical recordings (see below).
  
 As you may have noticed, crossfeed only works with headphones. The reason is that 99.9% of the recordings people listen to through DAVE are made for a reproduction through speakers. They're not completely compatible with headphones, although most may be used to the flaws introduced by the mismatch. In the real world it's impossible to hear low frequencies just in one ear. Now almost all recordings contain such one-sided low-frequency signals. They lead to an irritation of the brain or more precisely the auditory cortex. Crossfeed can almost perfectly compensate for that. That doesn't mean the recording is now perfectly compatible to headphone listening, since recordings made for speakers are supposed to be listened in a somewhat reverberative listening room, so they will sound drier than intended when heard through headphones. But the intimacy created that way is a trademark of headphones and not necessarily a bad thing if you like it.
  
 Recordings specifically for headphones do exist – they're called binaural recordings. Among the few I've heard I haven't found one that was really convincing to my ears, though. A general weakness is the lack of perceived frontal sound impact. That may be my ears, since others have reported different experiences.
  


lovethatsound said:


> I don't use the cross feed, prefer the sound as it is☺


 
  
 Hi lovethatsound
  
 Well, it you like it that way! I can't listen without crossfeed anymore – but that has a lot to do with some strange hearing problems. However, in my book listening with crossfeed engaged is more true to the original sound (except for binaural recordings).


----------



## Beolab

jazz said:


> Hi Hiyono
> 
> Roughly spoken, crossfeed monophonizes low frequencies – the lower, the more crosstalk between the channels, up to 100%. Stage 1 has the lowest low-pass frequency for the crosstalk, stage 3 the highest – it's meant for the most critical recordings (see below).
> 
> ...




Great info!  

Are you using cross-feed 1 or 3 most of the time?


----------



## bmichels

Will finally audition DAVE tomorrow  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 I will bring HE-1000 & HE-X and...my magic cable "2 x XLR 3 Pins-->HE-plugs" to try (don't tell this to Rob 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## Rob Watts

I am not listening....
  
 Actually, production Dave now has short circuit protection resistors installed on the balanced XLR, so it absolutely won't drive headphones! It didn't have the current drive either for headphones too.
  
 As to cross-feed - I prefer 3, its closer to loudspeaker perspective.
  
 Rob


----------



## lovethatsound

bmichels said:


> Will finally audition DAVE tomorrow   .
> 
> I will bring HE-1000 & HE-X and...my magic cable "2 x XLR 3 Pins-->HE-plugs" to try (don't tell this to Rob  )


Hope you enjoy it bmichels.Your magic cable won't do you any good by the waybut Dave will still sound great out of the headphone jack


----------



## m0nster

rob watts said:


> I am not listening....
> 
> Actually, production Dave now has short circuit protection resistors installed on the balanced XLR, so it absolutely won't drive headphones! It didn't have the current drive either for headphones too.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sounds like the engineer came out on top once again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think it's very cool how you participate in the discussion and how patient you answer questions! So thank you for Dave an sticking around here, Rob


----------



## JaZZ

beolab said:


> Great info!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I don't use DAVE's crossfeed, but my own. All newly acquired recordings get crossfeeded before listening to them. As mentioned, my ears can't bear listening without crossfeed anymore. I use 5 intensities, number 3 (standard nowadays) sounds similar to DAVE's crossfeed 3.
  
 Since Hugo and now with DAVE I could renounce the effort if it were just for listening at home. But I listen to music also on the go and during jogging, therefore it still makes sense – with my FiiO players (of which the X5 II is the center of my home system around DAVE). The Hugo is too bulky for that purpose (and the Mojo doesn't sound better than X5 II or X3 II alone for my taste; moreover it doesn't do crossfeed).


----------



## Mython

jazz said:


> Since Hugo and now with DAVE I could renounce the effort if it were just for listening at home. But I listen to music also on the go and during jogging, therefore it still makes sense – with my FiiO players (of which the X5 II is the center of my home system around DAVE). The Hugo is too bulky for that purpose (and the Mojo doesn't sound better than X5 II or X3 II alone for my taste; moreover it doesn't do crossfeed).


 
  
 If I see someone jogging with a pair of HE-1000s or HD-800s, I'll be sure to tap them on the shoulder and ask to see the DAVE they have in their rucksack, crammed-in alongside a big power-pack and DC-AC-inverter!


----------



## yamuling

I bought my DAVE last week. Very exciting with the SQ paired with ATC Sca-2 preamp and ATC 50ASLT. Soon become the best DAC I ever have. 
  
 One question, I heard from here digital pre inside DAVE should be very transparent. I tried DAVE XLR output direct to ATC 50ASLT. Again the same as other DAC direct linking, its sound a bit thick, slow, low control power so a bit pity. Perfect SQ again when add the preamp.
  
 1, Any special setting shoud do with the ATC speaker or power amp? I saw HIFI show having DAVE ATC combinition, too. I tried -25dB to -45dB, will it be too low setting for DAVE?
  
 2, If I use the preamp for future, should I use RCA to preamp and let preamp change signal to balanced XLR to speakers? As I heard Chord prefer RCA.
  
 3, Any power cable or Usb cable suggestion for DAVE？ I'm now using the cables with DAVE and have better SQ when direct linking. Tried ENTREQ Challenger serials and AIM cable, quite big difference again. They are suitable for the former DAC. A bit confused now. 
  
 Thx for any suggestions 
  
 ADD：Finally I found another powercord to be much better for this system when direct linking


----------



## ecwl

yamuling said:


> I got my DAVE last week. Very exciting with the SQ paired with ATC Sca-2 preamp and ATC 50ASLT. Soon become the best DAC I ever have.
> 
> One question, I heard from here digital pre inside DAVE should be very transparent. I tried DAVE XLR output direct to ATC 50ASLT. Again the same as other DAC direct linking, its sound thick, slow, no control power so a bit pity. Perfect SQ again when add the preamp.
> 
> ...


 
 If the sound is better through the ATC preamp, you should try using the power cable for the ATC preamp on the Chord DAVE and then use the Chord DAVE digital preamp directly. I ran into the same problem when I was bypassing my Sanders preamp with the Chord QBD76HDSD. The first time I tried it, Frey 2 was plugged into Sanders and Heimdall 2 was in the Chord and bypassing the Sanders preamp made the sound anemic. . Somehow, I figured it out so I plugged the Frey 2 into the Chord and I got the benefit of bypassing the preamp and the dynamics were restored with improved transparency.


----------



## Christer

rob watts said:


> My reference loudspeakers is unusual; its made by Velour a small German company. I do not think they are made any more. The speakers had very good sound-stage depth, with an excellent bass for a relatively small loudspeaker. Headphones - Noble K10, Audeze, and Nighthawks. The majority of the listening tests was on loudspeakers.
> 
> Rob


 

 Surprising to read that you  are not using something  truly full range as a reference for speakers.
 Imho, the most transparent and realistic sound for hi res  large scale classical recordings are electrostatic speakers. 
 All traditional  "box speakers" I have heard sound more coloured than electrostatic speakers again imho.
 Regarding headphones I am not familiar with Noble K10 ,but I have heard some Audeze and I would like to audition their LCD4 before deciding to upgrade from my current HD800.
 Are you using  the LCD4?
 I was really tempted to get the HE1000 in Singapore last week it sounded great both via Dave Hugo and Mojo, but there were some issues with really complex orchestral tutti at full blast ie fff level ,where my HD 800 taking a step back sounded more open and resolved.
 But the HE 1000 was oh so sweet on a lot of classical with good inner detail even at very low levels.
 Getting to that point which you asked me about in the other post.
 Apart from really bad overmic'd multic'd where  hi res can actually sound worse than low res 16/44.1. But  in most other cases hi res 24/96 and  DSD sounds  clearly better smoother and generally more realistic than  even 24/44.1 to my ears and and the  recording engineers/producers conductors I have talked to regarding 16/44.1 compared to higher res. No one in the past 15 years I believe records at lowly!! 16/44.1.
 Why skip so much of the music?
 If you only sample now and then at rates that computers of 30 years ago could handle of course you are going to miss a lot of what has happened between the  too few samples taken!
 16/44.1 is still a delivery format, but luckily only that. No one records 16/44.1 even in the pop industry any longer I think?
 And the difference is not only that loud passages sound less artificial and DIGITAL but that ppp also  sounds smoother and has more body when hi res is properly mic'd and done well.
 Yes it can sound worse too. But only when  you let the pop  approach destroy the sound.
 Unfortunately even   some  classical labels do compromise balance and SQ  for  boombox owners.
 Quoting an engineer/producer I know who has worked with classical since the days of analogue" WE immediately heard something was wrong with digital although we were told it was perfect. Not until the introduction of 24/96 and now DSD does it sound good again."
 Morten Lindberg of 2L told me that he could live with 20 bits but not anything less than 24/96 sampling-wise and he too works on a daily basis with live versus recorded. I don't but have been to enough sessions and many ,many live concerts and rehearsals and  for me hi res and DSD was the only thing that made me listen to digital music on a regular basis.
 The only  classical pro I know who  argued that bits are more important than sampling rate has been Robert von Bahr the owner of BIS records who long claimed that 24/44.1 was enough. But now they record at 24/96. IMO the results are obvious. 24/96 with the same miking from Singapore  for example sounds clearly smoother and more as the live sound in the hall than the earlier 24/44.1 to me.
 In other words everything else equal, hi res  almost always sounds better and more realistic   to me.
 I have recently discovered a classical label that records most projects in DXD and releases at anything from DXD to 24/96 and also DSD 256 down to 64.
 The label is Challenge Classics and they make some of the most natural and best sounding classical recordings on the market judging from the  recordings I have heard from them.Their Bruckner 1 sounded sublimely natural via Dave.
 Superbly natural well balanced  takes of orchestras playing in a real live acoustic that "challenges" some of the  old majors like DGG and Decca
 that  far too often seem to mic things for the pop crowd and boom boxer owners, these days.
 And although only done in DSD 64 Jared Sacks  who also works on an almost daily basis and prefers working in  DSD and balance in analogue at sessions thus being maybe the only one actually taking full advantage of DSD 64 avoiding adding up more DSD noise at mixing desk.His recent Mahler 9 sounds clearly  better and ,more like the real thing than any 16/44.1 I have ever heard.
 I hope he will  make more recordings at DSD 256 in the future.
 He did a test comparison recording between DSD 64 and 256 recently.
 I know you are no fan of DSD. But it sure sounds better than 16/44,.1 in spite of all its noise/resolution problems to my ears.
 16/44.1 belongs to history imo.
 I think it is possibly time to put DSD 64 there too.
 Both formats were compromises made for lacking physical disc capacities no longer needed.
 As a photographer I  too know I can interpolate missing information up to a certain level but then pixels become visible.With low res audio" the audio pixels"are sometimes painfully audible to me. I always use a full frame hi res digital camera instead of a  compact camera with a  small sensor when I want the very best result technically possible.
 16/44.1 has puny little sensor .
 I also  am aware that the bandwith limited audio signal can be recovered in theory. But why settle for  bandwith limited when the original live signal is not bandwith limited?Triangle and some  other percussion instruments of a symphony orchestra  have harmonics up to 90 to 100khz if I remember correctly.
 The only genre that matters to me personally is  acoustic music and that genre deserves the best we can get.There is still a wide gap betwen the real thing and difgital audio imho. And 16/44.1 is, good as it can sound on less demanding material,is far from the best imo.
 Yes it sounds better than before via Hugo but still not good enough for me.
 And none of the music  I listen to is recorded  at16/44.1, so why would I bother with it?
 I did not listen to any 16/44.1 via Dave.
 I don't own more than a handful of rbcds but a couple of hundred SACDs. And more than five hundred LPs and over 2 gigabytes of hi res music.
 Cheers Chris


----------



## lovethatsound

Hi Christer
Try using cardas clear cable with your hd800,it could save you alot of money.


----------



## buson160man

I did get a brief listen to the dave at the chiunify meet with a cavalli amp . It did sound excellent but it would be interesting to hear it against the dcs super ring dac combo. Of course that set up cost over a a hundred thousand which  would not be a fair comparison.


----------



## Mython

From *CanJam Singapore 2016 Impressions (February 20-21, 2016)* thread:
  
  


> Originally Posted by *tassardar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






> The Abyss. Impression was its good. I put it at just below the HE1000 personally. Want to try it again in the future in a better condition.
> 
> 
> The full metal jackets. Was investigating the difference between the old Angie and new Angie II. Its slightly smaller in dimensions. Sound wise a touch better clarity and a little less warm at the same setting on the knobs. Unsure if its the cable as I didnt go round swapping with my personal Angie.
> ...


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

mython said:


> From *CanJam Singapore 2016 Impressions (February 20-21, 2016)* thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Would have been great to hear DAVE linked to the BHSE and 009's...... would possibly be the best headphone set up on the planet !


----------



## ecwl

I started off listening to various demo recordings I like to use to test stereo systems, trying to listen to the effects and descriptions of what everyone else has been saying that's great about DAVE. Then I started listening to more of my regular music, mainly classical, old and new just to enjoy the musicality. But I realized subconsciously, I was still listening more to symphonic works for soundstage, depth, transients, low-level linearity, timber and other audiophile effects. For a change, I put on Paul Lewis playing Schubert Improtus. I was simply blown away by the sound of the piano. I remember I was first drawn to QBD76 because of how natural it produced piano sounds compared to other DACs. DAVE simply takes it to a completely different level. Needless to say, I'm still listening to the album as I type this.


----------



## yamuling

THX for your suggestion.
  
 I tried. A bit better but not as perfect as with the PRE. Not a big problem I love the full combination.
  
 If direct linking DAVE to active speakers. Should them all power cable grounded? In my system, only speakers‘ power cable no earth. When close DAVE first, left speaker has continuous hiss out. Never happened before. Maybe earth settings in my system cause the SQ not perfect without PRE


----------



## AndrewOld

MQA - does anyone know anything about how the proposed MQA format will impact the DAVE (and the Hugos). Will decoding MQA need to be done in the DAC? Or can it be completely decoded by the media player before the signal gets to the DAC? Are MQA specific filters necessary; if they are, will the DACs firmware need to be modified to implement them? Will MQA take off or sink without trace?


----------



## bmichels

+1. Will DAVE Fully support MQA in the near future through a Firmware upgrade ( i understood that in order to have MQA décoded corectly in the Music player there is also some MQA support needed in the DAC) ?


----------



## ecwl

I just don't get the fascination with MQA as I think of it as predominantly marketing. To me, MQA sounds like a better FLAC/mp3 format that compresses 24/192 (or higher resolution) into 24/44. I don't see people going around asking whether their DACs can play FLAC directly instead of PCM or insisting that their new DACs are going to be obsolete if it can't play FLAC directly.
  
 Another issue I find is that in general, the better the DAC, the smaller the sonic difference is between a 24/192 file and a 16/44 file.
  
 I'm assuming that when MQA is finally available widely, the only time I'll use it is when I'm streaming from Tidal. I'm also guessing that my Windows computer server/renderer is going to be able to run the Tidal desktop app which would convert the 24/44 MQA FLAC into 24/192 or higher PCM to be streamed to Chord DAVE. I just don't see myself buying MQA files when I can just buy lossless compressed 24/192 FLAC files.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

It is so much more than a better Flac. MQA makes corrections to the original timing errors and it remasters, as I understand the process. If this is the case then it is bound to sound better than the original on any DAC.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Out of interest has anyone heard DAVE through the latest KEF top range speakers: Blade, Blade Two or Reference range? Their latest version of the single-unit tweeter/Mid sounds quite special from recent reviews.


----------



## STR-1

I'm hoping to have a demo of the Dave later this week and currently have the Hugo TT for a few days on loan. I've already satisfied myself that the TT is a significant step up in quality from my Hugo and hope to hear a significant jump again from TT to Dave. I'll learn what I can from the 1-hour demo, where I will be comparing the Dave with the TT using my HE1000 and AK380, but would welcome thoughts from those of you who have owned both TT and Dave on what I should expect to hear. Thanks in advance.


----------



## JaZZ

ecwl said:


> I started off listening to various demo recordings I like to use to test stereo systems, trying to listen to the effects and descriptions of what everyone else has been saying that's great about DAVE. Then I started listening to more of my regular music, mainly classical, old and new just to enjoy the musicality. But I realized subconsciously, I was still listening more to symphonic works for soundstage, depth, transients, low-level linearity, timber and other audiophile effects. For a change, I put on Paul Lewis playing Schubert Improtus. I was simply blown away by the sound of the piano. I remember I was first drawn to QBD76 because of how natural it produced piano sounds compared to other DACs. DAVE simply takes it to a completely different level. Needless to say, I'm still listening to the album as I type this.


 
  
 I agree: The reproduction of a grand piano is one of DAVE's key skills.


----------



## ecwl

daveredref-iii said:


> Out of interest has anyone heard DAVE through the latest KEF top range speakers: Blade, Blade Two or Reference range? Their latest version of the single-unit tweeter/Mid sounds quite special from recent reviews.


 

 No but I listened to Blade Two through an Aesthetix Romulus CD player driving a Bryston amp in a dealer with church-like ceilings. That was too much warmth from the tube CD player and the resonances in the listening space. But walking up to the speaker, it sounds neutral. But then you can read the measurements on Stereophile and compare your Olympus III's measurements on Soundstage so you don't really need my listening opinion. Anyway, I think the KEF speaker series is solid, if you're looking for a new pair of speakers with a different frequency response. If flat frequency response is what you're going for, I think your options are KEF Blade or Magico... But I think I'm getting off topic so I'll just add that DAVE sounds way better than the Aesthetix Romulus?


----------



## gnomen

yamuling said:


> I bought my DAVE last week in China. Very exciting with the SQ paired with ATC Sca-2 preamp and ATC 50ASLT. Soon become the best DAC I ever have.
> 
> One question, I heard from here digital pre inside DAVE should be very transparent. I tried DAVE XLR output direct to ATC 50ASLT. Again the same as other DAC direct linking, its sound a bit thick, slow, low control power so a bit pity. Perfect SQ again when add the preamp.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Yamuling.  I was very interested in your post as there are similarities with my setup.  Would like to see any replies you receive from other forum members who drive their power amps directly.
  
 I have the ATC 50ASLTs you describe, used with a Mark Levinson No 380 pre-amp (which I found to be better than ATC's own SCA-2).  With my first hi-fi DAC, a Weiss 202 purchased in 2012 I tried using direct XLR connection to the 50s without success.  The output from the Weiss was too high and the sound was distorted.  Later, in conversation with Daniel Weiss, I discovered it is possible to lower the output level of the Weiss DAC very easily.  When this option is selected the output volume of the Weiss is typically operating between -10 and -30 dB.  Most important, the sound is a tad more transparent without the pre-amp than with it.  Consequently I have de-commissioned the pre-amp and just use a direct connection to the 50s.  Very happy.
  
 Daniel Weiss explains that there is some loss of resolution if digital volume is reduced too far (e.g. by more than, say, -40dB) as the number of effective bits is reduced.  I cannot say I hear any loss of sound quality at the levels I use. 
  
 When I purchased a Hugo TT for use in my second system (a headphone system at my workstation) I also checked that it worked with the same setup in my main system.  So I hooked the TT up directly to the 50s, again using the XLR cables.  The result is just fine -- no overload, and operating in roughly the same volume setting range.  As with the Weiss, I do find there is just that extra little transparency connecting the TT directly versus using the pre-amp.  With the pre-amp in place it is as if a fine veil is introduced over the sound.  I would like to say there is more body, or more control, or some other compensating contribution from the pre-amp included.  But I just cannot hear it.
  
 Regarding your specific questions. 
  
 1. The volume level is fine, as already noted.  I did notice somewhere Rob Watts saying the way the digital volume works on his DACs there is no loss of resolution.
  
 2. I just used XLR cables.  I would have thought best to let the DAC do the SE to XLR conversion; would be interested to hear other views.
  
 3. No hiss in my setup.
  
 4. I just use the power cable and USB cable that came with the TT.  Again, would be interested to hear other views.
  
 Cheers


----------



## bmichels

After 3 years of hesitations..... I JUST placed yesterday my deposit for my BHSE. This will be the last batch of the BHSE SE with the separate PSU. So I could not resist...

Now....the looooong wait start. Plenty time to investigate those tube rolling options...

Question is : has someone tested the* DAVE with the BHSE/Sr009 *or at least with a TOL STAX set-up ?


----------



## PANURUS

Saturday I have heard a comparaison between the Dave and the NAIM NDS powered by NAIM 555 PSDR (18000 euro of NAIM product).
 The loundspeakers active was the ATC scm 100 ASL (18000 Euro).
 So that the A/B was easy, the Dave and the NDS was connected via a preamp ATC SCA2 (8000 Euro).
 Unfortunately the cables between Dave and NDS to "ATC  SCA2" were differents. One of them was the WIREWORLD Eclipse Gold that I use at home.
 Result: I heard over the differences between cables that between DACs.
 Interchanged cables do not put a clear difference detected
 After that, the seller connects the Dave directly with balanced Chord cables(green one's) on the loundspeakers ATC scm 100 classic.
 The quality became better but with this setup i did not hear all the dynamic that is possible and that I like.
 At this moment, the seller said me: For the same quality by the NAIM way, i would have to use a NAIM preamp of 30000 Euro.
 So the NAIM setup will be near 50000 Euros with cables.
 That said, i ask him to change the Chord cable by some balanced WIREWORLD cables.
 It did it with 2 eclipse 7 ( I think).
 With this setup, I then enjoyed the music. More open. The basses were more detailled and the dynamic was there. The seller agreed

 The most part of the signature of the Dave was audible.
 How can I said that?
 Because from each setup with Dave, that I heard:
 - with CHORD amplifier, ATC amplifier, BRYSTON amplifier, TAD amplifier
 - differents sources: OPPO, TAD, NAIM
 - Headphones : HD800, HD800S, STAX, GRADO, OPPO
 - loudspeakers : TAD, ATC SCM 100 ASL(active), ATC SCM50 ASL (active)
 When the music is composed of a mix of instruments and seems a little confused with old DAC's, each time, i am impressed (with Dave)for a quality that never touched me so deeply throughout my years of listening to these works.
 Resume:
 The seller confirms: The ancient works are revived by Dave
 I will define the main part of the signature of the Dave like: Discrimination.
 If possible, take with you your inter-connect cable when you go to the shop. That will help.


----------



## PANURUS

bmichels said:


> After 3 years of hesitations..... I JUST placed yesterday my deposit for my BHSE. This will be the last batch of the BHSE SE with the separate PSU. So I could not resist...
> 
> Now....the looooong wait start. Plenty time to investigate those tube rolling options...
> 
> Question is : has someone tested the* DAVE with the BHSE/Sr009 *or at least with a TOL STAX set-up ?


 
 Do not forget the multimeter
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdMR9pZ3IcQ


----------



## TheAttorney

bmichels said:


> Question is : has someone tested the* DAVE with the BHSE/Sr009 *or at least with a TOL STAX set-up ?


 
 Yes, I have, and I posted my impressions only a couple of weeks ago on this thread. On that particular occasion, I was underwhelmed by the improvement DAVE gave above my Yggy.
 But it wasn't an entirely fair comparison, so I'm still aiming to give the DAVE another go when it next becomes available for loan and has had a few weeks of burn in under its belt. Hoping within a couple of weeks.
  
 For cable enthusiasts, you may be interested to know that I subsequently tried the AQ Diamond toslnk cable to Yggy and it's a keeper! In fact I'd say that Diamond Yggy made me want to rediscover my album collection more than either DAVE or Vodka Yggy a couple of weeks before. Of course exact details can't be compared over time like that, but I think the desire to rediscover my album collection can be reasonably compared. 
  
 Yet to determine if such cable difference affect DAVE as much as they do Yggy. 
  
 All this I think is more to do with my source to DAC synergy than it is to do with the DAC to BHSE/009 synergy. The latter just shows up differences in a largely transparent manner.


----------



## PANURUS

A question about the optical input of the Dave.
  
 Is the first one STO and the second one SMO?
  
 Could you give me more informations about the 3 cables in the box?
  
 One for main power.
  
 Is there a choke on the usb one?
 How long is it?
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzlmKZlKa8c.   See at 3.01 minute
  
 What is the third cable?
  
  
 Thank you.


----------



## lovethatsound

panurus said:


> A question about the optical input of the Dave.
> 
> Is the first one STO and the second one SMO?
> 
> ...


1 optical cable 
2 usb cable 1 and half meters long no choke 
3 power chord cable 

Both are full size optical outputs on the Dave.


----------



## PANURUS

Thank You


----------



## highendhifi

The Rega Isis doesn't like all discs unlike my Brsyton bcd-1 so if I use that as my transport, is the AES/EBU preferred over toslink and s/pdif?
Should I be anxious over timing/jitter with using separate DAC and transport?


----------



## Rob Watts

Optical will sound the best. Don't worry about source jitter at all, Dave eliminates it.
  
 Rob


----------



## highendhifi

rob watts said:


> Optical will sound the best. Don't worry about source jitter at all, Dave eliminates it.
> 
> Rob



Thanks, Rob. I'm looking forward to it arriving but get conflicting advice on how to connect transport to DAVE. You're the first to advise optical but, well, if that's what you're saying, then optical it is....!
Does cable quality matter for optical?


----------



## lovethatsound

highendhifi said:


> Thanks, Rob. I'm looking forward to it arriving but get conflicting advice on how to connect transport to DAVE. You're the first to advise optical but, well, if that's what you're saying, then optical it is....!
> Does cable quality matter for optical?


I'm sure i told you when you were asking about the blu transport that optical was the best way.Anyway I'm using a super nova 7 with mine,a brilliant optical cable.


----------



## highendhifi

lovethatsound said:


> I'm sure i told you when you were asking about the blu transport that optical was the best way.Anyway I'm using a super nova 7 with mine,a brilliant optical cable.



Dang it, yes you did, apologies! I'll check that cable out, thanks


----------



## m0nster

I have been reading reviews, impressions, looking at pictures, I have heard interviews with Rob. All about the DAVE. And I must say it all sounds like that piece of equipment is doing wonders. Feeling like Gollum that wants his precious, but can't get it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 So, does any of you think that there will be a used market for the Chord DAVE in the foreseeable future where one could get a "discount" on the full price? Kinda just chasing dreams here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway, have a great time guys and enjoy the music!


----------



## analogmusic

m0nster said:


> I have been reading reviews, impressions, looking at pictures, I have heard interviews with Rob. All about the DAVE. And I must say it all sounds like that piece of equipment is doing wonders. Feeling like Gollum that wants his precious, but can't get it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Maybe there is or maybe there isn't a discount in the future.
  
 But get yourself a Mojo or Hugo, and enjoy the music on it till a discount is available...
  
 That is what I am doing anyway.


----------



## chordguy

bmichels said:


> Will finally audition DAVE tomorrow
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 bmichels    .......   you were demoing Dave last weekend, but we never heard your thoughts?​


----------



## Beolab

He bought one insted


----------



## chordguy

I saw the bit were he said "After 3 years of hesitations..... I JUST placed yesterday my deposit for my BHSE. This will be the last batch of the BHSE SE with the separate PSU. So I could not resist..." but saw no reference to his views on Dave?
 ​


----------



## bmichels

chordguy said:
			
		

> .I saw the bit were he said "After 3 years of hesitations..... I JUST placed yesterday my deposit for my BHSE. This will be the last batch of the BHSE SE with the separate PSU. So I could not resist..." but saw no reference to his views on Dave?
> ​




Sorry for not reporting here. As I said in another thread my listening session was too short to make purchase decision and I will listen to DAVE again when i return to Europe in 2 weeks. 

But I have to admit that i have been less impressed than I expected. May be I expected too much ? May be i need more listening time ?


----------



## Beolab

Its like an old great red wine, it matures you more you taste it..


----------



## MacedonianHero

rob watts said:


> Optical will sound the best. Don't worry about source jitter at all, Dave eliminates it.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Hi Rob:

 Just curious, would you recommend optical of spdif with both the Dave and Hugo TT?

 Thanks!


----------



## Rob Watts

For both tt and Dave, usb is best, closely followed by optical, then last is coax.


----------



## MacedonianHero

rob watts said:


> For both tt and Dave, usb is best, closely followed by optical, then last is coax.


 
 Thanks Rob! Pretty much sums up my experiences too with the TT. Any reason why optical is better than coax? Traditionally with other DACs I've owned, it was the reverse?


----------



## Rob Watts

Normally dacs are sensitive to source jitter, but my dacs are not, due to the DPLL which eliminates incoming jitter, buffers the data and creates a local clock sychronisation.
So you are just left with benefits of optical which is galvanic isolation, which reduces noise floor modulation thus making it sound smoother and darker. With usb we have galvanic isolation too, but the clock is allready local as timing for usb comes from the dac.


----------



## MacedonianHero

rob watts said:


> Normally dacs are sensitive to source jitter, but my dacs are not, due to the DPLL which eliminates incoming jitter, buffers the data and creates a local clock sychronisation.
> So you are just left with benefits of optical which is galvanic isolation, which reduces noise floor modulation thus making it sound smoother and darker. With usb we have galvanic isolation too, but the clock is allready local as timing for usb comes from the dac.


 
  
 Excellent...thanks for such a thorough explanation!


----------



## Rob Watts

I am currently designing a ADC converter, that will match Dave's performance, and solve a number of issues that plague conventional ADC's - notably huge noise floor modulation, poor anti-aliasing filters, and poor noise shaper performance.
  
 I know from the work with Dave that the perception of depth needs noise shapers of astounding accuracy; indeed, Dave ended up with 350 dB performance noise shapers, in order to ensure that small signals are resolved with zero error - from listening tests, this is needed to ensure the brain can perceive depth correctly.
  
 Now I have designed a ADC noise shaper that exceeds 350 dB performance (note these numbers are digital domain performance only, so it is an idealised noise shaper - I am only looking at the THD and noise of the noise shaper only). To test the noise shaper I can run Verilog simulations, capture the data, then do an FFT on the data, and then check the results. Before I did that, I thought it would be a good idea to run a similar simulation with Dave's noise shaper. In this case, I am trying to evaluate whether it can accurately encode very small signals, so I am using a -301 dB sine wave at 6 kHz. If it can resolve a signal at -301 dB, then we can safely say that small signals are accurately encoded, at least in the digital domain.
  
 So here are the results:
  
  

  
 So this is the digital domain performance of the Dave noise shaper, and frequency is from DC to 100kHz (0.1 MHz).
  
 The 6 kHz signal is perfectly reconstituted at -301 dB. You can see a flat line at -340 dB, but this is just a FFT issue. The real noise floor at 15 kHz is at -380 dB, which is about 100 trillion times lower noise than conventional high performance noise shapers. Note also the noise at 100 kHz is at -200 dB - that is extraordinary low for a noise shaper, and shows why I need to do little filtering on the analogue side.
  
 -301 db is better than 50 bits accuracy.
  
 Now to write the code for the ADC!
  
 Rob


----------



## romaz

rob watts said:


> I am currently designing a ADC converter, that will match Dave's performance, and solve a number of issues that plague conventional ADC's - notably huge noise floor modulation, poor anti-aliasing filters, and poor noise shaper performance.
> 
> I know from the work with Dave that the perception of depth needs noise shapers of astounding accuracy; indeed, Dave ended up with 350 dB performance noise shapers, in order to ensure that small signals are resolved with zero error - from listening tests, this is needed to ensure the brain can perceive depth correctly.
> 
> ...


 
 Rob, obviously such a product is for studios and not consumers and it makes sense to do it right at the ADC rather than to have to correct for it at the DAC.  Is this your answer for MQA?


----------



## analogmusic

This is superb.

Hopefully Rob can finish this soon and our music will sound a lot better


----------



## Christer

rob watts said:


> I am currently designing a ADC converter, that will match Dave's performance, and solve a number of issues that plague conventional ADC's - notably huge noise floor modulation, poor anti-aliasing filters, and poor noise shaper performance.
> 
> I know from the work with Dave that the perception of depth needs noise shapers of astounding accuracy; indeed, Dave ended up with 350 dB performance noise shapers, in order to ensure that small signals are resolved with zero error - from listening tests, this is needed to ensure the brain can perceive depth correctly.
> 
> ...


 

 Sounds exciting indeed.
 Once ready I would suggest you   let  some equally dedicated  recording engineers in the genre of acoustic and classical like Jared Sacks or Morten Lindberg or any of the freelancers for BIS  or  Challenge Classics  or any other label that cares about both music and SQ! try  it at  sessions comparing it to the current SOTA  ADCs like Merging and others. 
 And/or make some of your  own  simply miked or even true binaural recordings for headphone listeners like most people here ,under the best possible conditions acoustically  with music and musicians where all the things you are  striving for for really matter and make a difference.
 Imho that excludes basically all of modern synthetic Pop and Rock by the way.
 Cheers Chris who never made it to Can Jam , instead I listened to Dave the week before, under better than show conditions for hours , on my own in a reasonably quiet environment and was duly impressed as  I reported earlier.


----------



## Beolab

Unpacking my new Black DAVE 







Now it is time for some listening !


----------



## JaZZ

Congrats, Beolab! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It looks exactly like mine.
  
 Now time to perform the 250-hour break-in!


----------



## Beolab

jazz said:


> Congrats, Beolab!  It looks exactly like mine.
> 
> Now time to perform the 250-hour break-in!






I give it 2 hours to warm up and break in tops  

Thanks my fellow Dave owner !  

Cheers !


----------



## Hiyono

Grats, Black looks nice. 
  
 I was wondering.  Did other people's Dave come with any booklets or anything?  That unboxing video showed a packet of papers.  I don't think mine came with anything like that.


----------



## wdh777

Do any online retailers in the United States sell these yet? I can't find one. Thanks


----------



## wdh777

Also would you recommend using this with say a gsx mk2 with headphones as I have that already or is the amp sufficient in the Dave?


----------



## Hiyono

I think I remember talking to the USA distributor and they said something like retailers aren't allowed to sell Dave online.  They said they let mine go since it was order way head of time.


wdh777 said:


> Do any online retailers in the United States sell these yet? I can't find one. Thanks


----------



## wdh777

Sorry for the multiple posts. Final question any comparisons of the Dave vs Hugo tt? I would likely run both through the gsx mk2. Is the Dave that much better? Thanks


----------



## Beolab

hiyono said:


> Grats, Black looks nice.
> 
> I was wondering.  Did other people's Dave come with any booklets or anything?  That unboxing video showed a packet of papers.  I don't think mine came with anything like that.




Yes, it came with: 

Black booklet manual 
Warranty card
C13 IEC Power cable
Optical Toslink cable
USB A - USB B Cable 
Chord System Remote 


I have already like three system remotes incl the black metal casing for the remote ( $799 )


----------



## Hiyono

Hmm I got everything but the Manual in mine.  Is there a warranty card or something important I need in it?
  
  


beolab said:


> Yes, it came with a black Manual ,
> C13 IEC Power cable
> Optical Toslink cable
> USB A - USB B Cable
> ...


----------



## JaZZ

wdh777 said:


> Also would you recommend using this with say a gsx mk2 with headphones as I have that already or is the amp sufficient in the Dave?


 
  
 «Sufficient» for 99% of the available dynamic headphones (planars included). As in the Hugo, there's no circuitry to be bypassed when using an external amp, so there's nothing to gain except for gain (which you don't need) and added coloration (harmonic distortion). I wholeheartedly recommend withstanding the temptation of the «more is better» maxim – and go for the best amp you can get for DAVE: the integrated wire without gain. If you need some coloration or counterbalancing for your headphones, there are methods preserving the original transparency.


----------



## Hiyono

wdh777 said:


> Also would you recommend using this with say a gsx mk2 with headphones as I have that already or is the amp sufficient in the Dave?


 

 I think someone posted about using Dave with gsx  awhile back.  The amp in Dave is sufficient with all of my headphones even an old akg that's 600ohm.
  
 If you really want to use balanced then you can use the gsx over dave's amp.


----------



## JaZZ

hiyono said:


> Hmm I got everything but the Manual in mine.  Is there a warranty card or something important I need in it?


 
  
 I got a warranty card (which I don't need, since warranty is provided by the distributor) and a printed manual – the same as the PDF available on the net.


----------



## Beolab

The sound is from another planet! 

Now it is installed, and up running, but i have one question, the display turn off every 15 seconds and then turns on again ? 

Does anyone got the same issue ?


----------



## Rob Watts

Don't worry about the display blanking it is normal. The display gets its data from the flash and I can't read and write to the flash at the same time so I blank the display when saving configuration settings. Actually this problem turned into a useful feature as I know that current settings are being saved when it blanks!


----------



## ecwl

beolab said:


> The sound is from another planet!
> 
> Now it is installed, and up running, but i have one question, the display turn off every 15 seconds and then turns on again ?
> 
> Does anyone got the same issue ?




I don't but I'm in Display mode 4 so the screen turns off with inactivity and only turns back on when I change the volume or the input. However, I find it to be quite sensitive. Sometimes, if I were to touch the unit's casing, the display would turn on. Which makes me wonder if I have some static charges on me all the time. I see you seem to be in Display mode 2. I thought the display is supposed to stay on all the time. Hopefully, the problem is not because of some grounding issue with your BNC output into the DAC. I do know that the screen flashes/blinks when it saves the new setting into memory but I didn't think it does so every 15 seconds when I was running it in Display mode 1.


----------



## JaZZ

The display blanks for a second just once after the setting has been changed.


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Don't worry about the display blanking it is normal. The display gets its data from the flash and I can't read and write to the flash at the same time so I blank the display when saving configuration settings. Actually this problem turned into a useful feature as I know that current settings are being saved when it blanks!




Thanks Rob for that quick answer this late! 

It have stopped blink now  

Quick question, how do i switch to DSD+ ? 
Can toggle to DSD+ from PCM+ , the other funktions is no problem to toggle in btw. 

I read it should take 20 seconds, but it does not respond at all, i certainly do something wrong here. 

Then it is sad that i can not use the AQ Diamond Toslink cable, it doesn't fit ;( 

Other than that it is a state of the art machine, with great sensitivity feel in the volume nob and a extraordinary sound straight out of the box!

Then i have also connected the W4s Remedy and switch in btw the Remedy that is connected to BNC 1 and then i go straight with a second Spidf coax to BNC 2 without the Remedy and it is from what i find impossible to here any difference, like i do on the Mojo and Hugo.


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes to prevent people accidentally changing modes, you have to keep the right hand button pressed for at least a second when the PCM+/DSD+ is highlighted.
  
 Oh its early for me, I am in Korea!
  
 Yes straight out of the box it will should make fabulous music - assuming of course the rest of the system is transparent.
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Yes to prevent people accidentally changing modes, you have to keep the right hand button pressed for at least a second when the PCM+/DSD+ is highlighted.
> 
> Oh its early for me, I am in Korea!
> 
> ...




Oh! goodmorning then, hope you having a sunny day in ☀️Seoul☀️. 

This is in my mind an End Game setup:
Cant see how the sound could be bettered from my point of veiw, maybe the headphone cables: JPS Labs SuperConductor HP cable or the DHC Spore4 cables can open up the sound a thad more, but other than that it is outrageously good, so soft en gentle, and so much air around every micro note and detail. It is like night and day to listen to my Hugo no. The Mojo stays in the livingroom for my speakers, and he is doing a nice magic jobb there.

I think it is in a totally diffrent leauge and does sound like the best i have ever heard period. 

And yes the Wells Audio HeadTrip is a monster power amp with 25watt of power, and is dead silent with loads of power when it needs to deliver, even if it is only a small silent pling in the atmosphere fara away it delivers it so well pronounced, so it is almost unreal. And i also feel that a high powered amp doesent run away and hide the information when a visceral bass is just wispers in your ear, like a underpowered one does. 
 So yes it is very transparent and totally black with no noise in the background = a great trio . 
So now it is just the music that have to be better recorded with your ADC Rob, i have dun my jobb for now 




// Fredrik


----------



## lovethatsound

beolab said:


> Unpacking my new Black DAVE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


congratulations on getting your Dave.super nova 7 fit's Dave,CHORD their's no excuse for his optical cable not fitting in the Dave,you should sort this out asap.ENJOY Beolab


----------



## Sonic77

jazz said:


> I got a warranty card (which I don't need, since warranty is provided by the distributor) and a printed manual – the same as the PDF available on the net.


 
 Same here.
 Congrats Beolab, the Dave is awesome right?


----------



## Beolab

lovethatsound said:


> congratulations on getting your Dave.super nova 7 fit's Dave,CHORD their's no excuse for his optical cable not fitting in the Dave,you should sort this out asap.ENJOY Beolab




Thanks mate! 

I will go out and buy a SuperNova 7 if you can promise it works with DAVE  ?

Another option is to cut of some peaces of the plug on the Diamond cable to make it fit.


----------



## Beolab

sonic77 said:


> Same here.
> Congrats Beolab, the Dave is awesome right?




Truly outrageously good !

I find the soundstage is more centred / compact and vivid compared to Hugo who is more lively and sharp / veil in the corners. 
And the dynamics and silky bass are just over the top. It does a great trio with the HeadTrip , DAVE and Abyss.


----------



## lovethatsound

beolab said:


> Thanks mate!
> 
> I will go out and buy a SuperNova 7 if you can promise it works with DAVE  ?
> 
> Another option is to cut of some peaces of the plug on the Diamond cable to make it fit.


yes it fits Dave 100% I'm using it with my blu transport


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

lovethatsound said:


> yes it fits Dave 100% I'm using it with my blu transport


 

 Hi lovethatsound,
 Does the Dave improve the sound from the Blu over a QBD76 ?


----------



## ecwl

Hmmm. I cannot fit my Supernova 6 Toslink into DAVE. The plug behind the main Toslink plug portion was too big so the cable doesn't insert deep enough to stay put. And I don't think I can really shave it. Good thing DAVE comes with its own Toslink cable which I now use.

And I mainly use USB for music playback but I do watch TV and movies with the coaxial and Toslink. DAVE is at a completely different level of performance compared to QBD76.


----------



## Beolab

ecwl said:


> Hmmm. I cannot fit my Supernova 6 Toslink into DAVE. The plug behind the main Toslink plug portion was too big so the cable doesn't insert deep enough to stay put. And I don't think I can really shave it. Good thing DAVE comes with its own Toslink cable which I now use.
> 
> And I mainly use USB for music playback but I do watch TV and movies with the coaxial and Toslink. DAVE is at a completely different level of performance compared to QBD76.




Hm.. thats was my thaughts also, that it wouldent fit. The Nova 7 got the same Toslinl plug . 

Why so small holes?  

Do not like to use the stock Chord China Toslink that is included, so i think i have to shave my AQ Diamond plug a little ;(


----------



## lovethatsound

ecwl said:


> Hmmm. I cannot fit my Supernova 6 Toslink into DAVE. The plug behind the main Toslink plug portion was too big so the cable doesn't insert deep enough to stay put. And I don't think I can really shave it. Good thing DAVE comes with its own Toslink cable which I now use.
> 
> And I mainly use USB for music playback but I do watch TV and movies with the coaxial and Toslink. DAVE is at a completely different level of performance compared to QBD76.







beolab said:


> Hm.. thats was my thaughts also, that it wouldent fit. The Nova 7 got the same Toslinl plug .
> 
> Why so small holes?
> 
> Do not like to use the stock Chord China Toslink that is included, so i think i have to shave my AQ Diamond plug a little ;(


Guys,the super nova 7 fit's the Dave 100%.like I've said before I'm using it from my blu transport to the Dave,perfect fit.


----------



## Beolab

If you say so i belive you, it was just that i thaught it was the same diameter on the on Nova 6 and 7 plug?


----------



## lovethatsound

bonesy jonesy said:


> Hi lovethatsound,
> Does the Dave improve the sound from the Blu over a QBD76 ?


Hi Bonesy jonesy
Yes Dave is a big step up from the QBD76.I bet your wondering why I'm not using daul data mode,well at the moment it sounds better just using the blu set to 24 bit and red book using optical,this may change in the future when chord update the filters in the blu transport.How are you getting on with your new headphones m8?


----------



## lovethatsound

beolab said:


> If you say so i belive you, it was just that i thaught it was the same diameter on the on Nova 6 and 7 plug?


the super nova 7 plug has a different diameter to the super nova 6.The super nova 7 fit's Dave perfect,and is also 1 of the best optical cables I've ever heard.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

lovethatsound said:


> Hi Bonesy jonesy
> Yes Dave is a big step up from the QBD76.I bet your wondering why I'm not using daul data mode,well at the moment it sounds better just using the blu set to 24 bit and red book using optical,this may change in the future when chord update the filters in the blu transport.How are you getting on with your new headphones m8?


 

 Hi lovethatsound,
  
 Yes you were reading my mind regarding using the dual data from the Blu.   I have been buying some Original MFSL Ultradisc Master Recording Gold CD's which has made a big step up in quality with Blu connected to the QBD76.....so I am imaging with the DAVE it will be amazing.  I also found a jump in sound quality changing the power cables and interconnects.  I now use Digital XLR's made by Clearer Audio  (UK company that hand makes fantastic quality power cables, speaker cables and interconnects) to connect my Blu to my QBD76 DAC. 
  
 My Stax 009's sound fantastic now with my KGST connected to my Blu and QBD76 which are both burning in nicely.  Thank you for asking lovethatsound.    I can imagine with DAVE it could be audio nirvana.    Need to book for a demo session with my gear for comparison !


----------



## mjdutton

rob watts said:


> Yes to prevent people accidentally changing modes, you have to keep the right hand button pressed for at least a second when the PCM+/DSD+ is highlighted.
> 
> Oh its early for me, I am in Korea!
> 
> ...


 
 Are you planning to be at the Bristol HiFi Show over the weekend giving a digital master class?


----------



## U2nite

rob watts said:


> I am currently designing a ADC converter, that will match Dave's performance, and solve a number of issues that plague conventional ADC's - notably huge noise floor modulation, poor anti-aliasing filters, and poor noise shaper performance.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Hi Rob,John, 
  
 Great to meet you on the 1st day of CAMJAM Singapore. I have a Mojo for a few weeks and after hearing about your presentation on Mojo and Dave, I was keen to listen to Dave too. Good thing the local agent AV1 had one in the show.
  
 The first time I heard Dave for a minutes, under show conditions, the sound quality was not obvious, as the setup of was different from mine: different can, Windows player, & different songs. 
  
 So went back to listen to the Dave Dac next day for 30 mins using my MacBook, Audirvana+(no upsampling) , CD and DSD albums on a HifiMan HE1000.  
  
 Wow. Outstanding sound. Best Dac I've ever heard. Very transparent, lost of accurate details and very musical. This is my idea of what great music sounds like. 
  
 The albums sounds so much closer to a live performance than anything I've heard before in Hifi .Couldn't stop smiling . 
  
 So now I'm really happy with the Mojo, and using it every day to discover albums and hear music presented in life like way.
  
 I used to be like that U2 song, "And I still haven't found what I was looking for."  Now I'm ecstatic to find what I can upgrade to in future - Dave.
  
 Looking forward to your ADC too. Do get the code done soon and get it out. Can't wait to too hear well recorded music converted on your ADC and played back on Dave  
  
 To all owners, and would be owners of Dave Dac: Congratulations! You're on to a good thing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 Rick


----------



## Rob Watts

No sorry, I am in Korea, just finished some presentations. I want to do Bristol, as I have not done something there, and yet its so close to my home. Then off to Tokyo for more presentations and interviews next week.
  
 This week-end I am working on the code for the Dave standard upgrade for the Blu and Red ref CD players. The PCB was finished earlier this week.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

u2nite said:


> Hi Rob,John,
> 
> Great to meet you on the 1st day of CAMJAM Singapore. I have a Mojo for a few weeks and after hearing about your presentation on Mojo and Dave, I was keen to listen to Dave too. Good thing the local agent AV1 had one in the show.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes agreed - that's the sound of Dave - very real "your there" sound.
  
 Me too on the ADC (project code word Davina), its a project that I have been working on for a long time (actually the first prototype was in 2001). There are a number of key things happening that conventional ADC's don't do well - noise floor modulation, aliasing, and noise shaper resolution. The noise floor modulation issue was solved way back in 2001. Aliasing is a major problem - normal ADC decimation filters are half band, so offer worst case only -6dB rejection. But I have used -140 dB decimation filters, and can still hear the effects of aliasing. Fortunately its not difficult to design a filter that has no aliasing, its just FPGA resources. On the noise shaper side, getting Dave standard (350dB) is not a problem, I have already designed that noise shaper.
  
 We will be doing test recordings later this year, so I will publish test samples too on Head-Fi. I too am very excited about the sound quality possibilities of the ADC.
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> No sorry, I am in Korea, just finished some presentations. I want to do Bristol, as I have not done something there, and yet its so close to my home. Then off to Tokyo for more presentations and interviews next week.
> 
> This week-end I am working on the code for the Dave standard upgrade for the Blu and Red ref CD players. The PCB was finished earlier this week.
> 
> Rob




"DAVE standard upgrade?"
Upgrade for Dave? 

Will the Red Ref CD also have DAVE integrated? 
 And lst but not lest, what upgrades are you doing on the Blu Transport ? 

Please be more detailed here


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> "DAVE standard upgrade?"
> Upgrade for Dave?
> 
> Will the Red Ref CD also have DAVE integrated?
> ...


 
 No its a brand new upsampler PCB which brings the Blu and Red reference to Dave standard. At the moment Dave is better than the upsampler fitted into the old CD players, so you are better off listening to 44.1. The new PCB will mean it will sound better with the upsampler when using Dave. Absolutely no upgrade for Dave, that's not possible. 
  
 Rob


----------



## Mojo ideas

romaz said:


> Rob, obviously such a product is for studios and not consumers and it makes sense to do it right at the ADC rather than to have to correct for it at the DAC.  Is this your answer for MQA?


 You are partially right we will make a version specifically for the professionals in the recording industry, but we will also be making versions to go into possible future new products including RIAA cartridge amplifiers and Digital pre amplifiers


----------



## Christer

rob watts said:


> Yes agreed - that's the sound of Dave - very real "your there" sound.
> 
> Me too on the ADC (project code word Davina), its a project that I have been working on for a long time (actually the first prototype was in 2001). There are a number of key things happening that conventional ADC's don't do well - noise floor modulation, aliasing, and noise shaper resolution. The noise floor modulation issue was solved way back in 2001. Aliasing is a major problem - normal ADC decimation filters are half band, so offer worst case only -6dB rejection. But I have used -140 dB decimation filters, and can still hear the effects of aliasing. Fortunately its not difficult to design a filter that has no aliasing, its just FPGA resources. On the noise shaper side, getting Dave standard (350dB) is not a problem, I have already designed that noise shaper.
> 
> ...


 

 What bit rate and sampling rate will your  Davina ADC be working at in its optimal highest possible  resolution setting?
 In the classical recording industry more and more labels are recording in DXD  ie 24/352.8 and release at lower  bit rates and sampling rates.
 But some, notably 2L and LAWO from Norway and Challenge Classics are also releasing their original DXD masters and various  downsampling rates  including DSD up to 256, from those.Hugo runs at 32/358.2 with DXD recorded albums. And Dave at 32/768 doesn't it?
 At least that is what I think I saw on the display when it was lit.
 I assume Davina will record at similar rates as does  Dave internally?
 Talking about hi res in general, Challenge Classics has got an interesting article on their homesite " The Spirit of Turtle" on what constitutes hi res and what doesn't according to them.


----------



## lovethatsound

rob watts said:


> No its a brand new upsampler PCB which brings the Blu and Red reference to Dave standard. At the moment Dave is better than the upsampler fitted into the old CD players, so you are better off listening to 44.1. The new PCB will mean it will sound better with the upsampler when using Dave. Absolutely no upgrade for Dave, that's not possible.
> 
> Rob


Hi Rob
Fantastic news that the blu upgrade is coming,could we be seeing a daul data optical mode?


----------



## Rob Watts

Davina will be 44.1 kHz to 768 kHz, with two differing sample rate outputs with say 44.1 or 768 available together. This is done without SRC.
  
 Bit depth will be user programmable, 16,24 or 32.
  
 Rob


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Yes I noticed 44.1 kHz was best with the Red Ref III and Dave dac Rob. At first I thought 88khz might be tighter but only because there was slightly less bass but when I switched to 44.1 it was clearly more natural. The 88.2 was not natural by comparison. I guess from your comment this will be resolved with an upgrade.


----------



## Sonic77

rob watts said:


> We will be doing test recordings later this year, so I will publish test samples too on Head-Fi. I too am very excited about the sound quality possibilities of the ADC.
> 
> Rob


 
 Looking forward to those samples.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

rob watts said:


> *No its a brand new upsampler PCB which brings the Blu and Red reference to Dave standard.* At the moment Dave is better than the upsampler fitted into the old CD players, so you are better off listening to 44.1. The new PCB will mean it will sound better with the upsampler when using Dave. Absolutely no upgrade for Dave, that's not possible.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Thats great news Rob (especially as I have two Blu's linked to two QBD76's).
  
 Any idea of when this will be available for the Blu and estimated cost  ?


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes the upgrade will mean it is better SQ when using the upsampler. 
  
 I can't say how much it will be - we work to a fairly straightforward recipe - Chord want something better, so I design something that will work technically, then its priced after the design prototype meets the target, and pricing is just multiples of the parts cost.
  
 The upgrade should be available later this year.
  
 Rob


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

rob watts said:


> Yes the upgrade will mean it is better SQ when using the upsampler.
> 
> I can't say how much it will be - we work to a fairly straightforward recipe - Chord want something better, so I design something that will work technically, then its priced after the design prototype meets the target, and pricing is just multiples of the parts cost.
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you Rob.  Much appreciated.


----------



## Christer

rob watts said:


> Davina will be 44.1 kHz to 768 kHz, with two differing sample rate outputs with say 44.1 or 768 available together. This is done without SRC.
> 
> Bit depth will be user programmable, 16,24 or 32.
> 
> Rob


 

 Thanks Rob , really  good to hear.  I am really looking forward to hear  and possibly even record acoustic music  without compromise for a listening experience even  closer to the real thing, live acoustic music in a real venue, than hitherto possible.  But why would you include 16/44.1 on a product intended for the recording industry?
 Is there really ANYONE who still records at such low bitrates and sampling rates as a compromised standard of 30 years ago? Even in the world of POP AND ROCK?
 The first attempt to make rbcd listenable for large scale classical was Reference Recordings, Prof Johnsson's hi def carrier signal based, HDCD. But imho   although an important  step in the right direction,it was  not good enough.
 With Hugo it sounds sound ok, but no more imho.
 I still hear  thinness and lack of true resolution and  realism  from 16/44.1 and even 24/44.1,unlike the  effortless reproduction that I almost take for granted these days not only from direct cut LPs as in the old days, but also from hi res digital ,particularly via your DACs, provided the recording and balancing engineers have done their job correctly and not messed things up with too many and too close mics.
 Phase anomalies as a result of mixing in too many mics is often  a real problem.
 Classical needs true  hi res.
  
 I fully understand that there are a lot of consumers who are stuck  in the world of rbcd or mp3 or whatever,because that is what they know and how  the music they listen to  is delivered to them. And frankly most of it needs no more.
 Johnny Cash  or Rolling Stones will never sound good to my ears.Neither even gave a thought to good and accurate transparent SQ.
 Their recordings are so full of inherent distortions that they couldn't even be considered in any relevant HI FI sense imo.  Especially not played via capable DACs like Hugo Mojo or Dave and headphones like the HE1000 or Sennheiser's new stratospherically priced Orpheus.
 On the contrary, the more transparent the delivery chain the more obvious ,the deficiences of the material and recording  imo.
 There is neither  any  notable dynamic range, mostly just far too loud, nor any  real HF   harmonics  ,no  real depth or width or soundstage.No subtle layers of sounds as  from  up to a hundred instruments as in  complex symphonic music. Nor, any real  low level information to be retrieved in most modern  commercial stuff.There is to my knowledge NO ONE absolutely no one, in the real world of acoustic music and classical  in particular who still records with a format that is so temporally/timing compromised as 16/44.1.
 PS Another label that recently, but not always, delivers realistic SQ in the classical genre is Chandos, Especially their latest recordings using  Merging HORUS and Ravenna mixing direct in the hall at sessions and using few and  some of the best mics available.
 Their two recent  Raff albums are  prettty good examples of how an orchestra sounds in a real hall with both natural  ambience and lots of low level detail and realistic timbres captured at 24/96 ,that rbcd simply doesn't capture as realistically to my spoilt ears used to live symphonic music.
 It would be really nice to hear  if Davina can beat the so far best digitally recorded piano SQ I have heard, Morten  Lindberg's DXD  recording of Beethoven's mighty OPUS 111 piano sonata.
 Very good indeed at home via Hugo and 500 watts amplification per channel into my electrostatic speakers and even more impressive via DAVE and HE1000.
 Please include grand piano  and other real acoustic music on your first demo recordings from Davina.
  
  
 Cheers Chris currently in warm and sunny Thailand.


----------



## bmichels

rob watts said:


> Yes the upgrade will mean it is better SQ when using the upsampler....
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Do this mean that when using the BLU with DAVE, this "BLU upgrade" won't make any SQ difference since all the up-sampling can be done in the DAVE anyway ?


----------



## romaz

It's quite a bit of fun watching how other people have set up their DAVE.  It really is a personal statement.  Mine has nearly 300 hours on it now and has settled in nicely into my system.  I thought I'd share a few things I've found.  Some of these things I discovered when I first had a DAVE in my home back in November but after more time with it, I have solidified certain opinions.
  
 First, Rob pointed out that DAVE, like all things, benefits from good mechanical isolation.  My DAVE sits on my desk where its compact size and attractive aesthetics are very much a plus.  I have near-field Omega monitors also sitting on my desk along with a powered subwoofer on the floor and so when music is playing through these speakers, isolation does make a difference.  I have a quad of Black Raviolis that are low profile and do make a difference but I found a more elegant solution that looks like it is custom tailored for the DAVE.  It is the Acoustic Revive TB-38H and is designed to provide isolation for small pieces of equipment like power supplies and I will say that it not only looks good but is very effective.  It is also not very expensive and can be purchased directly from Japan via EBay.  Highly recommended.
  


  
 Second, I cannot overstate how good a job Rob has done isolating the DAVE against almost everything else.  It seems to be immune and even impervious to all the things that significantly impact just about every other DAC I have experienced.  When I first had the DAVE in my home in November, I had noticed quite oddly that my "dirty" Mac Pro plugged into the wall with a standard 18g computer power cord and connected to the DAVE via optical cable sounded as good as my highly optimized CAD CAT which was grounded to an Entreq grounding box and connected to an Audience aR6 line conditioner.  I wasn't sure what to think of this back then and whether I could believe what I was hearing but because my time with the DAVE was so brief (only 48 hours), I convinced myself that I could have imagined it.  Those of you who know me know that I am heavily into music servers and have researched and compared them extensively because with my TotalDAC d1-monobloc and every other DAC I have had, they made a VERY large difference:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/787020/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box
  
 I was even in the process of building what I called the "Super CAT" comprised of very specialized parts from Paul Pang and would include no less than 4 OCXO clocks as well as an optical LAN adapter.  I had commissioned Phil Hobi in Switzerland to personally install and optimize Windows Server 2012 and Audiophile Optimizer, one of Phil's IT colleagues in Florida to build this machine and painstakingly apply RF shielding to strategic areas of the server and Paul Hynes of Scotland to build a custom quad-transformer, multi-rail linear PSU.  By all accounts, this was to be the best music server that could be built because with each expert I enlisted, my instructions were to compromise nothing for the sake of ultimate sound quality.  Well, it was around this time that the DAVE first came into the picture and as you can imagine, upon discovering that the source may not matter at all, I put this project on hold until my DAVE arrived.  Some here who already have a DAVE have suggested that their specialized servers sound better than their basic laptops but this is what I found this past week:
  
 With the help of an audiophile colleague and my wife (3 sets of ears total), we blind tested several music sources including (1) my "noisy" 12-core Mac Pro with its standard mains cable plugged directly into the wall with no power conditioning, connected to network via wifi and connected to the DAVE either via $10 USB cable or $120 Mapleshades optical cable, (2) Sonore Sonicorbiter SE, a $300 Roon Endpoint that utilizes a Cubox processor connected to mains via linear PSU and to the DAVE either via Curious USB or Mapleshades optical, (3) a $3,000 custom-built Windows music server with specialized motherboard with TCXO clock, Paul Pang V4 USB with OCXO clock, connected to network via optical LAN, Windows Server 2012 R2 Core with Audiophile Optimizer and Bug Head Emperor, (4) a $3,500 Aurender X100L with $1,200 custom-built Kenneth Lau linear PSU connected to network via optical LAN and to the DAVE via Curious USB cable and (5) an $8,000 Aurender N10 connected to the network via optical LAN and to the DAVE via Curious USB cable.  All of these devices, except the Mac Pro were connected to mains using expensive power cords (either the Audience AU24SE or a $3,500 Dynamic Design Challenger AE15 cord with an active RF shield) and further aided by a Son of Q balanced power supply by Equi=Tech which is effectively an isolation transformer and RF filter.  In a separate setup with a different DAC (which shall go nameless), I have validated that these power cables and balanced power supply are quite effective in what they are designed to do without any negative impact on dynamics.  The bottom line is that the Mac Pro connected directly to the wall with its cheap power cord and directly to the DAVE with a $10 USB cable represented my "worst case scenario" while every other music source was heavily advantaged in one way or another.
  
 Listening to a variety of lossless files from 16/44 to 24/384 to DSD128 with genres ranging from large orchestral symphony to small ensemble jazz to intimate vocals to bass-heavy pop, while sighted, some of us imagined we could detect a subtle difference in favor of USB over optical and some of us felt the Aurender N10 perhaps layered a little better but once blinded, while we could hear very subtle differences, none of us could really state a preference for one source or another.  To put it bluntly, the Mac Pro with its noisy switching PSU and no special RF shielding and using a $10 USB cable sounded as good as the other servers and this was a unanimous finding.  In case anyone is interested to know, we also tested the USB Regen and the newer W4S Recovery with the Curious USB cables and compared this setup against the $10 USB cable by itself and once again, there was no difference.  Those who are hearing significant differences between sources, all I can say is your DAVE must be different than mine.  To be thorough, we then substituted the DAVE for another DAC and without question, the Mac Pro on USB was the poorest sounding source.  The W4S Recovery (more than the USB Regen) with Curious USB cable also noticeably improved the sound.  With the other DAC, blind testing wasn't necessary because the differences were so stark.
  
 I have noticed some are earnestly in search of that "perfect" optical cable and some have refused to look at USB at all based on prior experiences.  My comment to you is you should leave all of your preconceived ideas at the door when it comes to the DAVE because the DAVE will probably change many of your core beliefs about proper system setup and tuning.  First of all, back in November when I first came into contact with the DAVE, my dealer and I did some testing.  Something must have changed because we were able to directly connect an AQ Diamond optical cable directly into the DAVE back then and we compared it to my $120 Mapleshades optical cable alongside a $2,000 digital coax cable (I have forgotten which one).  Back then, my dealer and I both agreed that optical sounded a little better than digital coax and that the less expensive Mapleshades sounded identical to the more expensive AQ Diamond.   As I now compare my Mapleshades optical to the standard "made in China" optical cable that comes with the DAVE, I can detect no difference at all.  If it makes you feel better to spend a lot of money on something like an AQ Diamond or Wireworld SuperNova because they are glass cables, just know that the optical connectors in the DAVE are not glass, they're plastic.  If you are going out of your way to hunt for a special optical cable to make the DAVE sound as good as possible, I suggest you listen and compare before you buy because there's a very good chance you won't notice a difference.   With regards to USB vs optical, while I am unable to detect any significant difference between USB and optical in my system, I personally prefer USB because of the ability to transfer DSD512 and PCM up to 768kHz oversampling.  As I am listening to files recorded natively in DXD and DSD256, I am just stunned by what I am hearing.   Rob has already said he is less fond of digital coax and AES/EBU.  I believe this is because you cannot galvanically isolate these types of connections and especially with an unbalanced digital coax cable, RF noise can more freely penetrate the DAVE.
  
 As it has become clear to me that what is connected _*before*_ the DAVE has become less important, what is connected _*after*_ the DAVE has become even more important.  Because the output of the DAVE is so pure and rich and faithful to the recording, it would make sense to use the most transparent analog interconnects, headphone or speaker cables, and headphones or speakers you can afford.  While expensive, I can vouch for the DHC Silver Spore4 if anyone is on the fence about this cable.  The difference in sound quality is there and it is easily the finest headphone cable I have heard.


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## lovethatsound

HI ROMAZ
A very nice write up . I've got 4 different optical cables,but I've only used 1,the super nova 7,but i will try the other 3 out,and see if i can tell any difference and let you know.PS just ordered 2 of the acoustic revive tb-38h from e-bay,1 for my blu transport,and 1 for my Dave and i even like the colour.


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## Christer

romaz said:


> It's quite a bit of fun watching how other people have set up their DAVE.  It really is a personal statement.  Mine has nearly 300 hours on it now and has settled in nicely into my system.  I thought I'd share a few things I've found.  Some of these things I discovered when I first had a DAVE in my home back in November but after more time with it, I have solidified certain opinions.
> 
> First, Rob pointed out that DAVE, like all things, benefits from good mechanical isolation.  My DAVE sits on my desk where its compact size and attractive aesthetics are very much a plus.  I have near-field Omega monitors also sitting on my desk along with a powered subwoofer on the floor and so when music is playing through these speakers, isolation does make a difference.  I have a quad of Black Raviolis that are low profile and do make a difference but I found a more elegant solution that looks like it is custom tailored for the DAVE.  It is the Acoustic Revive TB-38H and is designed to provide isolation for small pieces of equipment like power supplies and I will say that it not only looks good but is very effective.  It is also not very expensive and can be purchased directly from Japan via EBay.  Highly recommended.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for your very interesting report.
 I have only heard Dave a few hours  also with the HE1000 conected directly to the headphone jack.
 And yes I too was very impressed by what I heard, especially with DXD recorded  material where I was present at the sessions it was as close as I have heard to  raw unedited DXD at 2L recording  sessions in Selbu and Nidaros chuches in Norway.
 Another of Morten's  DXD recordings sounded better more real than I have ever heard it before via headphones, Beethoven's last piano sonata Opus 111.
 And the string sounds from TRONDHEIMSOLISTENE sounded almost as being back in front of them again.
 "Your'e there" is a good description with well made recordings from what I have heard from Dave.   
 Do you have any issues at all with your HE1000 with densely scored  classical music?
 I am still on the fence a bit regarding them although they are addictive too.
 I very nearly bought a pair a couple of weeks ago but stalled at only  1 year local warranty offered.
 Oops I nearly forgot to mention that my macbook pro was connected via usb and it  sounded sublime. None of the issues  whatsoever that I sometimes have with my Hugo via usb.


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## romaz

lovethatsound said:


> HI ROMAZ
> A very nice write up . I've got 4 different optical cables,but I've only used 1,the super nova 7,but i will try the other 3 out,and see if i can tell any difference and let you know.


 
 I think if you already own a certain piece of equipment, like your Super Nova 7 or my $380 Curious USB cable, as an example, then you might as well use it (or you could get something much cheaper and sell what you have).  If you don't own such items and are looking to buy them, my opinion is do some listening and comparing first because I suspect your money would be better spent buying really good digital source files or on gear that would connect *after* the DAVE and not _*before*_ the DAVE (like better headphones, headphone cables, etc).
  
 To me, this is the trait of the DAVE that is both the most amazing but potentially also the most demoralizing.  We've heard about the number of TAPs, the noise shapers with 350dB of performance, the small signal linearity, the extremely low noise floor and perhaps more importantly lack of noise floor modulation but from a practical perspective, what does all of it really mean?  Those of us who have been fortunate enough to spend quality time with the DAVE know that this results in an emotional "you are there" experience never before experienced outside of a live venue or recording studio but to be fair, there are many who can make this same claim with their DAC and who's to say their emotional experience of "being there" is less valid?  
  
 Where the DAVE stands apart is in how effortlessly it can do what it does and this is what is both so amazing and so demoralizing.  Every other DAC I know of requires a very specific and usually expensive setup for it to sound its very best.  With my TotalDac, it benefited greatly from a highly tuned source, signal grounding to an Entreq box, expensive line conditioning with expensive mains cables, expensive fuses, an expensive USB cable, USB to AES reclocker, expensive linear power supplies and a large expensive rack to house all of it and unfortunately, this was discovered only through expensive and time consuming trial and error.  With the $90k MSB Select II, MSB has more than $40K of accessories available to sell you, from a $10k femto clock to a $20k dual power base upgrade to a $12k I2S transport so that it can sound its very best.  With the $110k DCS 4-box stack, there are those that suggest you need to spend another $30-60k in cabling alone for it to sound its best.  Well, Joe Schmo, some newbie audiophile with no real experience or knowledge, comes in off the street with his $20 backpack, takes out his little unassuming DAVE, connects it to the wall with a $20 mains cable and connects to his iPhone with a $10 USB cable and everything else being equal, his setup is instantly competitive with even the very best setup that required some more experienced audiophile years of late nights and tinkering to perfect. Yes..this is pretty much how I felt.  The DAVE changes everything.
  
 Someone commented recently about how expensive the DAVE is and no doubt, its asking price is not cheap compared to some other DACs but considering you don't need to spend much on a source or on digital cabling and that you can do without a separate preamp and headphone amp and considering this DAC without needing "extras" can compete with any DAC at any price (IMO) and provide such an emotional other world experience, I consider it a genuine bargain.


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## romaz

lovethatsound said:


> PS just ordered 2 of the acoustic revive tb-38h from e-bay,1 for my blu transport,and 1 for my Dave and i even like the colour.


 
  
 Yes, I think you'll find that it will fit the your DAVE and your Blu like an elegant glove.  The under-board is also made of a sturdy dark rich non-resonant single plank of wood and so it complements a black DAVE very well.


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## m0nster

Wow, sounds like quite the audio heaven you built yourself! It's a shame that we can't listen to what great setups other people in here have. Trying to somewhen stretch my budget to the DAVE, it's rather hard to read what kind of gear you have already owned. But if you say the DAVE is all that it is I think we should better believe it 
  
 Have a great Sunday, guys!


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## romaz

christer said:


> Thanks for your very interesting report.
> I have only heard Dave a few hours  also with the HE1000 conected directly to the headphone jack.
> And yes I too was very impressed by what I heard, especially with DXD recorded  material where I was present at the sessions it was as close as I have heard to  raw unedited DXD at 2L recording  sessions in Selbu and Nidaros chuches in Norway.
> Another of Morten's  DXD recordings sounded better more real than I have ever heard it before via headphones, Beethoven's last piano sonata Opus 111.
> ...


 
  
 During a recent listening session with a friend, we listened to the DAVE with an HE-1000, LCD-4, TH-900, Dharma, HD800 and Noble Kaiser 10 IEMs and they all sounded very good, the best that I have ever heard any of these headphones sound.  Back in November, I auditioned the DAVE connected directly (no separate amp) to an Abyss paired with a Nordost copper headphone cable and while the Abyss can benefit from more gain than the DAVE can provide with certain high dynamic range material, it was the best I had ever heard the Abyss sound.  What makes the HE-1000 special for me is the "air" it presents, better than any other headphone I've heard and as you know, it does it naturally and with any DAC.  The soundstage is not larger, at least not HD800 large, but the space around instruments and voices is just intoxicatingly good.  It is an ethereal quality that can sometimes make the HE-1000 sound soft and too polite but with complex material with many layers of instruments and voices, nothing layers better to my ears than the HE-1000.  Because the DAVE presents this wonderful sense of depth, the HE-1000 plays exquisitely to this strength.
  
 With the DAVE, because the DAC is no longer the limiting factor, the DAVE will expose the limits of your digital file, amplifier (if you're using one), your headphone cable and your headphone. Does the HE-1000 have issues resolving densely scored classical music?  I believe so and some of this is fixable and some of this is not.  With material that contains sharp transitions and a commanding leading edge (ie violins), the softness of the HE-1000 can come across as "lack of resolution" and there is nothing you can do about this but this is why people sometimes own several headphones and this is why I have an HD800S on order.  However, there are also perceived resolution issues because of the shortcomings of its stock copper headphone cable and this can be resolved.  Swap out the stock cable for something like the DHC Silver Spore4 and I think some of your complaints might just disappear. Silver (over copper) is known for its speed and resolution but at the expense of tonal body, especially in the lower frequencies to the extent that it can sound thin and bass shy but also "hyper" and unnatural.  This is what I am experiencing with my Moon Audio Silver Dragon.  With the Silver Spore4, however, you get all the resolution and speed that silver is known for but because the Silver Spore4 uses continuous cast (and not stranded) UPOCC grade silver (the purest you can buy) and because of the special dielectrics that Peter Bradstock uses, there is a smooth, quiet, relaxed and effortless quality to the presentation instead of the "hyper" quality that can come across as thin and harsh with other silver cables.  With the Silver Spore4, aside from its high cost, I have found no downside, and with special adapters, I am able to use this cable for my TH-900 and the HD800S that I have coming in.


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## TheAttorney

A great set of posts romaz and highly informative. Headfi needs more posts like this.
  
 As you are probably aware, I was underwhelmed by DAVE in my first encounter. It was very good, but nothing to truly rave about as yourself and others have done. So I'm still arranging a second go with the dealer when the loan version next becomes available.
  
 I very much like the idea of not having to worry about expensive upstream components and cables etc. Apart from the cost aspect, it can result in an extremely simple and compact total solution.
 Although I was really impressed with the AQ Diamond optical with Yggy, I've held off from actually buying that cable, precisely because I wanted to hear if it was unnecessary for the DAVE. I haven't tried the Mapleshade cable because transatlantic try-before-buy options are too much hassle. But if DAVE works equally well with stock cable then that would be a great result, but I'll reserve judgment until I try it for myself.


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## romaz

theattorney said:


> A great set of posts romaz and highly informative. Headfi needs more posts like this.
> 
> As you are probably aware, I was underwhelmed by DAVE in my first encounter. It was very good, but nothing to truly rave about as yourself and others have done. So I'm still arranging a second go with the dealer when the loan version next becomes available.
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you.  One of the ironies of your situation is that while your SR-009/BHSE (which I used to also own) is one of the most transparent headphone setups you can buy, because you are unable to directly connect an electrostatic headphone to the DAVE without an intermediary amp, you miss out on one of the DAVE's key strengths, a strength that greatly contributes to its transparency.  I suspect, however, with quality time spent with the DAVE and the ability to do direct A/B comparisons against your Yggy, you will find that these 2 DACs are in different leagues.  Another area that needs to be considered are the interconnects you use to connect the DAVE to the BHSE.  It was with the BHSE that I first became a cable believer.


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## STR-1

romaz said:


> During a recent listening session with a friend, we listened to the DAVE with an HE-1000, LCD-4, TH-900, Dharma, HD800 and Noble Kaiser 10 IEMs and they all sounded very good, the best that I have ever heard any of these headphones sound.  Back in November, I auditioned the DAVE connected directly (no separate amp) to an Abyss paired with a Nordost copper headphone cable and while the Abyss can benefit from more gain than the DAVE can provide with certain high dynamic range material, it was the best I had ever heard the Abyss sound.  What makes the HE-1000 special for me is the "air" it presents, better than any other headphone I've heard and as you know, it does it naturally and with any DAC.  The soundstage is not larger, at least not HD800 large, but the space around instruments and voices is just intoxicatingly good.  It is an ethereal quality that can sometimes make the HE-1000 sound soft and too polite but with complex material with many layers of instruments and voices, nothing layers better to my ears than the HE-1000.  Because the DAVE presents this wonderful sense of depth, the HE-1000 plays exquisitely to this strength.
> 
> With the DAVE, because the DAC is no longer the limiting factor, the DAVE will expose the limits of your digital file, amplifier (if you're using one), your headphone cable and your headphone. Does the HE-1000 have issues resolving densely scored classical music?  I believe so and some of this is fixable and some of this is not.  With material that contains sharp transitions and a commanding leading edge (ie violins), the softness of the HE-1000 can come across as "lack of resolution" and there is nothing you can do about this but this is why people sometimes own several headphones and this is why I have an HD800S on order.  However, there are also perceived resolution issues because of the shortcomings of its stock copper headphone cable and this can be resolved.  Swap out the stock cable for something like the DHC Silver Spore4 and I think some of your complaints might just disappear. Silver (over copper) is known for its speed and resolution but at the expense of tonal body, especially in the lower frequencies to the extent that it can sound thin and bass shy but also "hyper" and unnatural.  This is what I am experiencing with my Moon Audio Silver Dragon.  With the Silver Spore4, however, you get all the resolution and speed that silver is known for but because the Silver Spore4 uses continuous cast (and not stranded) UPOCC grade silver (the purest you can buy) and because of the special dielectrics that Peter Bradstock uses, there is a smooth, quiet, relaxed and effortless quality to the presentation instead of the "hyper" quality that can come across as thin and harsh with other silver cables.  With the Silver Spore4, aside from its high cost, I have found no downside, and with special adapters, I am able to use this cable for my TH-900 and the HD800S that I have coming in.



Hi Romaz
I've currently got the Dave on a few days loan, which I'm listening to with my HE1000 and using an AK380 as source (mostly Apples lossless CD rips) - everything stock, no expensive cables and no amps, just AK380/Dave/HE1000. I understand from the dealer that the Dave has had less than 10 hours run in. I have to say that although the definition and transparency is mightily impressive it does sound a little cold and 'hard', and ever so slightly bass-light compared to the Hugo TT. Can I expect much change after a bit more run in? I've been trying it out on all kinds of music. Thanks


----------



## romaz

str-1 said:


> Hi Romaz
> I've currently got the Dave on a few days loan, which I'm listening to with my HE1000 and using an AK380 as source (mostly Apples lossless CD rips) - everything stock, no expensive cables and no amps, just AK380/Dave/HE1000. I understand from the dealer that the Dave has had less than 10 hours run in. I have to say that although the definition and transparency is mightily impressive it does sound a little cold and 'hard', and ever so slightly bass-light compared to the Hugo TT. Can I expect much change after a bit more run in? I've been trying it out on all kinds of music. Thanks


 
 Yes, I believe so.  Very few pieces of electronic gear that I know of sound their best with so few hours.  Same thing applies to cables.  Unfortunately, I think you will need to run your DAVE continuously for a week before to be able to judge it fairly and it's not clear if you can keep it that long.  Most definitely, "cold and hard" are not accurate descriptors for the DAVE paired with the HE-1000.


----------



## Christer

romaz said:


> During a recent listening session with a friend, we listened to the DAVE with an HE-1000, LCD-4, TH-900, Dharma, HD800 and Noble Kaiser 10 IEMs and they all sounded very good, the best that I have ever heard any of these headphones sound.  Back in November, I auditioned the DAVE connected directly (no separate amp) to an Abyss paired with a Nordost copper headphone cable and while the Abyss can benefit from more gain than the DAVE can provide with certain high dynamic range material, it was the best I had ever heard the Abyss sound.  What makes the HE-1000 special for me is the "air" it presents, better than any other headphone I've heard and as you know, it does it naturally and with any DAC.  The soundstage is not larger, at least not HD800 large, but the space around instruments and voices is just intoxicatingly good.  It is an ethereal quality that can sometimes make the HE-1000 sound soft and too polite but with complex material with many layers of instruments and voices, nothing layers better to my ears than the HE-1000.  Because the DAVE presents this wonderful sense of depth, the HE-1000 plays exquisitely to this strength.
> 
> With the DAVE, because the DAC is no longer the limiting factor, the DAVE will expose the limits of your digital file, amplifier (if you're using one), your headphone cable and your headphone. Does the HE-1000 have issues resolving densely scored classical music?  I believe so and some of this is fixable and some of this is not.  With material that contains sharp transitions and a commanding leading edge (ie violins), the softness of the HE-1000 can come across as "lack of resolution" and there is nothing you can do about this but this is why people sometimes own several headphones and this is why I have an HD800S on order.  However, there are also perceived resolution issues because of the shortcomings of its stock copper headphone cable and this can be resolved.  Swap out the stock cable for something like the DHC Silver Spore4 and I think some of your complaints might just disappear. Silver (over copper) is known for its speed and resolution but at the expense of tonal body, especially in the lower frequencies to the extent that it can sound thin and bass shy but also "hyper" and unnatural.  This is what I am experiencing with my Moon Audio Silver Dragon.  With the Silver Spore4, however, you get all the resolution and speed that silver is known for but because the Silver Spore4 uses continuous cast (and not stranded) UPOCC grade silver (the purest you can buy) and because of the special dielectrics that Peter Bradstock uses, there is a smooth, quiet, relaxed and effortless quality to the presentation instead of the "hyper" quality that can come across as thin and harsh with other silver cables.  With the Silver Spore4, aside from its high cost, I have found no downside, and with special adapters, I am able to use this cable for my TH-900 and the HD800S that I have coming in.


 
  
 Thanks again for your follow up report and response to my questions regarding the HE1000.
 I don't have  any  doubts regarding DAVE.But the issues I have heard with some densely scored  material,notably Miraculous Metamorposes from Reference Recordings at 24/176.4 via HE1000, has been one reason for my holding back so far . But I too have been  more than a bit  addicted to the really good aspects of the HE1000,and I am  tempted to get the HE1000 simply  to complement my HD800.
 I have several terabytes of hi res masterfiles where some tend to sound better via  my Sennheisers taking a step back from the proceedings, and others via HE1000. I haven't heard anything as transparent as DAVE /HE1000 and my HD800,since the days of direct cut Sheffield Labs and Crystal Clear LPs and my Jecklin Float electrostats and Staxes.
 Cheers Chris


----------



## romaz

christer said:


> Thanks again for your follow up report and response to my questions regarding the HE1000.
> I don't have  any  doubts regarding DAVE.But the issues I have heard with some densely scored  material,notably Miraculous Metamorposes from Reference Recordings at 24/176.4 via HE1000, has been one reason for my holding back so far . But I too have been  more than a bit  addicted to the really good aspects of the HE1000,and I am  tempted to get the HE1000 simply  to complement my HD800.
> I have several terabytes of hi res masterfiles where some tend to sound better via  my Sennheisers taking a step back from the proceedings, and others via HE1000. I haven't heard anything as transparent as DAVE /HE1000 and my HD800,since the days of direct cut Sheffield Labs and Crystal Clear LPs and my Jecklin Float electrostats and Staxes.
> Cheers Chris


 
 Sure.  Thanks for your insights into various hi-res recordings.  I have begun exploring some of your recommendations and they have been very helpful.  My collection is growing.


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## Christer

romaz said:


> Yes, I believe so.  Very few pieces of electronic gear that I know of sound their best with so few hours.  Same thing applies to cables.  Unfortunately, I think you will need to run your DAVE continuously for a week before to be able to judge it fairly and it's not clear if you can keep it that long.  Most definitely, "cold and hard" are not accurate descriptors for the DAVE paired with the HE-1000.


 
  


str-1 said:


> Hi Romaz
> I've currently got the Dave on a few days loan, which I'm listening to with my HE1000 and using an AK380 as source (mostly Apples lossless CD rips) - everything stock, no expensive cables and no amps, just AK380/Dave/HE1000. I understand from the dealer that the Dave has had less than 10 hours run in. I have to say that although the definition and transparency is mightily impressive it does sound a little cold and 'hard', and ever so slightly bass-light compared to the Hugo TT. Can I expect much change after a bit more run in? I've been trying it out on all kinds of music. Thanks


 

 My guess would be that the inferior quality of your rbcd rips is the  real reason for the coldness and  hardness you say you hear from DAVE.
 And if anything the HE1000 tends to sound a bit on the warm euphonius  side of neutral. But ever so seductively.
 I played some 24/44.1 and 24/48 masterfiles via DAVE  and while they have never sounded better than via DAVE, they were still not the equal of well recorded true hi res files or DSD masters.
 I can listen to well recorded DSD or 24/88.2 and up for hours and hours on end, without any listener fatique. But with 44.1  it becomes evident quite soon to me.
 The most obvious difference between lower res and hi res is with strings and percussion to me.
 And then of course the inferior rendition of acoustic information from the venue and less realistic decay as when  percussion decays slowly into silence, with hi res, and live, it ends more abruptly and with less body and timbre  and colour ,with 44.1 
 Massed strings and solo violins tend to have a harder/colder/thinner, less timbrally realistic sound than the same at higher  pcm sampling rates or DSD to me.
 Mind you, DSD 64 can sound a bit too "soft and comfy".But I can accept that softness rather  than hard/thin 44.1 string sound.


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## Beolab

@romaz
  
  
 Great review and great pictures!
  
 Like your clean look, im about to clean up my look of my rig also, will post pictures shortly.
  
 Got a link to the ant-vibrating plate ?
  
 Then i have also discovered that the DAVE is immune to bad noisy sources, and you do not gain any with the use of any USB / Tos / Coax purifier box at all .
  
 Will try the included China optical cable tonight.


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## JaZZ

str-1 said:


> Hi Romaz
> I've currently got the Dave on a few days loan, which I'm listening to with my HE1000 and using an AK380 as source (mostly Apples lossless CD rips) - everything stock, no expensive cables and no amps, just AK380/Dave/HE1000. I understand from the dealer that the Dave has had less than 10 hours run in. I have to say that although the definition and transparency is mightily impressive it does sound a little cold and 'hard', and ever so slightly bass-light compared to the Hugo TT. Can I expect much change after a bit more run in? I've been trying it out on all kinds of music. Thanks


 
  
 Not exactly cold and hard, but I guess I know what you mean. Yes, this trait will disappear completely after ~250 hours according to my experience.
  


christer said:


> My guess would be that the inferior quality of your rbcd rips is the  real reason for the coldness and  hardness you say you hear from DAVE.
> And if anything the HE1000 tends to sound a bit on the warm euphonius  side of neutral. But ever so seductively.
> I played some 24/44.1 and 24/48 masterfiles via DAVE  and while they have never sounded better than via DAVE, they were still not the equal of well recorded true hi res files or DSD masters.
> I can listen to well recorded DSD or 24/88.2 and up for hours and hours on end, without any listener fatique. But with 44.1  it becomes evident quite soon to me.
> ...


 
  
 I almost exclusively listen to RBCD resolution recordings (mainly because the equalizer in my FiiO X5 II only works up to 48 kHz), and I can confirm that these don't sound like described (anymore). I appreciate your enthusiasm for hi-rez – which I also advocated until a few years ago –, but since the Hugo and now definitely with DAVE I don't consider it essential anymore. Linearizing my headphones for an immaculate listening experience is more important to me. Moreover my ears have grown older since, 13 kHz is the limit. That may be an explanation.
  
  
 Many thanks, *@Romaz*, for your elaborate information. I share your love for the HE1000 (for virtually the same reasons) especially with DAVE's headphone out – and your remark about electrostats needing separate amps was spot on. That said, I still like my two electrostats, now more than ever with DAVE, but the direct connection offers an incomparable immediacy and accuracy.


----------



## Kakki

rob watts said:


> Yes agreed - that's the sound of Dave - very real "your there" sound.
> 
> Me too on the ADC (project code word Davina), its a project that I have been working on for a long time (actually the first prototype was in 2001). There are a number of key things happening that conventional ADC's don't do well - noise floor modulation, aliasing, and noise shaper resolution. The noise floor modulation issue was solved way back in 2001. Aliasing is a major problem - normal ADC decimation filters are half band, so offer worst case only -6dB rejection. But I have used -140 dB decimation filters, and can still hear the effects of aliasing. Fortunately its not difficult to design a filter that has no aliasing, its just FPGA resources. On the noise shaper side, getting Dave standard (350dB) is not a problem, I have already designed that noise shaper.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Very good to hear the project Daviana progressing 
  
 and... is the digital amplifier project also in good state?
 I really look forward to knowing about when we will be able to audition the digital amplifier paired with Dave!


----------



## TheAttorney

romaz said:


> Thank you.  One of the ironies of your situation is that while your SR-009/BHSE (which I used to also own) is one of the most transparent headphone setups you can buy, because you are unable to directly connect an electrostatic headphone to the DAVE without an intermediary amp, you miss out on one of the DAVE's key strengths, a strength that greatly contributes to its transparency....  Another area that needs to be considered are the interconnects you use to connect from the DAVE to the BHSE.


 
 Yes, but that doesn't explain why I was even more underwhelmed by DAVE's headphone socket to my Sen HD600's, as compared to my Nagra CDC's built in headphone socket, which I had previously considered to be of fairly average quality.
 The HD600's are only mid-level 'phones, but I have heard them scale well enough in the past with different systems.
  
 At that point I was seriously considering if my sample DAVE was below spec in some way, but my dealer has told me it has blossomed in the meantime with further burn-in.
 I've not yet heard any dynamic headphones that I prefer over my Stax 009's (Abyss came closest), but I remain intrigued that the DAVE, directly driving something like an LCD4 or HE1000, holds the potential of equal or better sound, because such a solution would be so much simpler and neater - (trans)portable even, as Rob has mentioned. When I originally requested the DAVE loan, I also asked to try the LCD4's, but those sadly are hard to get - possibly due to the much discussed early reliability issues.
  
 My interconnects to BHSE are the pricey Tellurium Q Black Diamond balanced, which easily beat my elderly, even pricier, Transparent Reference SE's. This being the case whether any of Nagra, Yggy or DAVE were the source DACs.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> During a recent listening session with a friend, we listened to the DAVE with an HE-1000, LCD-4, TH-900, Dharma, HD800 and Noble Kaiser 10 IEMs and they all sounded very good, the best that I have ever heard any of these headphones sound.  Back in November, I auditioned the DAVE connected directly (no separate amp) to an Abyss paired with a Nordost copper headphone cable and while the Abyss can benefit from more gain than the DAVE can provide with certain high dynamic range material, it was the best I had ever heard the Abyss sound.  What makes the HE-1000 special for me is the "air" it presents, better than any other headphone I've heard and as you know, it does it naturally and with any DAC.  The soundstage is not larger, at least not HD800 large, but the space around instruments and voices is just intoxicatingly good.  It is an ethereal quality that can sometimes make the HE-1000 sound soft and too polite but with complex material with many layers of instruments and voices, nothing layers better to my ears than the HE-1000.  Because the DAVE presents this wonderful sense of depth, the HE-1000 plays exquisitely to this strength.
> 
> With the DAVE, because the DAC is no longer the limiting factor, the DAVE will expose the limits of your digital file, amplifier (if you're using one), your headphone cable and your headphone. Does the HE-1000 have issues resolving densely scored classical music?  I believe so and some of this is fixable and some of this is not.  With material that contains sharp transitions and a commanding leading edge (ie violins), the softness of the HE-1000 can come across as "lack of resolution" and there is nothing you can do about this but this is why people sometimes own several headphones and this is why I have an HD800S on order.  However, there are also perceived resolution issues because of the shortcomings of its stock copper headphone cable and this can be resolved.  Swap out the stock cable for something like the DHC Silver Spore4 and I think some of your complaints might just disappear. Silver (over copper) is known for its speed and resolution but at the expense of tonal body, especially in the lower frequencies to the extent that it can sound thin and bass shy but also "hyper" and unnatural.  This is what I am experiencing with my Moon Audio Silver Dragon.  With the Silver Spore4, however, you get all the resolution and speed that silver is known for but because the Silver Spore4 uses continuous cast (and not stranded) UPOCC grade silver (the purest you can buy) and because of the special dielectrics that Peter Bradstock uses, there is a smooth, quiet, relaxed and effortless quality to the presentation instead of the "hyper" quality that can come across as thin and harsh with other silver cables.  With the Silver Spore4, aside from its high cost, I have found no downside, and with special adapters, I am able to use this cable for my TH-900 and the HD800S that I have coming in.


 
  
 romaz do you had the time / possibility to compare the JPS Labs Superconductor HP with the DHC Spore4 yet, or anyone else ?
  
 I have heard both good and bad impressions of the SuperConductor HP cable.
 I have only listen to it one time briefly, and it got a little more control in the presentation, but it was very subtle if any vs the the stock cable, but other than that i think it was hard to hear any other greatness ??
  
 I will take it home in 2 weeks an see what it can bring to the table.


----------



## lovethatsound

Ok guy's this is my honest opinion about the Daves headphone output
Headphones being used are the hd600 but mainly the hd800 with cardas clear cable,Daves headphone output is great with the hd800 as I've mentioned before and i suppose most users would be really happy with it,but like I've also said before after listening to the hdvd800,with the hd800 in balance mode I'd say it sounds slightly better using the hdvd800 amp,and this is how i listen with my headphone setup now.


----------



## JaZZ

lovethatsound said:


> Ok guy's this is my honest opinion about the Daves headphone output
> Headphones being used are the hd600 but mainly the hd800 with cardas clear cable,Daves headphone output is great with the hd800 as I've mentioned before and i suppose most users would be really happy with it,but like I've also said before after listening to the hdvd800,with the hd800 in balance mode I'd say it sounds slightly better using the hdvd800 amp,and this is how i listen with my headphone setup now.


 
  
 And what if you increase the bass (e.g. by 0.6 dB at 30 Hz) according to the effect from the HDVD 800's output impedance?
  
 From an objective point of view the sound directly from the headphone out is the most honest, an amp will use the very same signal and stamp its own sonic signature/coloration (= harmonic-distortion pattern) onto it. The only imponderability is balanced drive.


----------



## STR-1

romaz said:


> Yes, I believe so.  Very few pieces of electronic gear that I know of sound their best with so few hours.  Same thing applies to cables.  Unfortunately, I think you will need to run your DAVE continuously for a week before to be able to judge it fairly and it's not clear if you can keep it that long.  Most definitely, "cold and hard" are not accurate descriptors for the DAVE paired with the HE-1000.







christer said:


> My guess would be that the inferior quality of your rbcd rips is the  real reason for the coldness and  hardness you say you hear from DAVE.
> And if anything the HE1000 tends to sound a bit on the warm euphonius  side of neutral. But ever so seductively.
> I played some 24/44.1 and 24/48 masterfiles via DAVE  and while they have never sounded better than via DAVE, they were still not the equal of well recorded true hi res files or DSD masters.
> I can listen to well recorded DSD or 24/88.2 and up for hours and hours on end, without any listener fatique. But with 44.1  it becomes evident quite soon to me.
> ...







jazz said:


> Not exactly cold and hard, but I guess I know what you mean. Yes, this trait will disappear completely after ~250 hours according to my experience.



Thanks guys. I'll run it continuously for as long as I can and see how it goes. Cheers


----------



## lovethatsound

Optical cables 
I'VE spent all morning trying 4 different optical cables out with the Dave to see if i could hear any difference in sound with the Dave,the most expensive one being the super nova 7,and the cheapest one being the pro-signal,the one you get with Dave and the Hugo.1st let me say that when i was using the Hugo as desktop Dac i could easily tell the difference,the super nova 7 being alot better,but after hours of trying all 4 optical cables out with Dave i can safely say that they all sounded the SAME.So save yourselfs some money if you have a Dave, because Rob Watts has worked some magic here.


----------



## lovethatsound

jazz said:


> And what if you increase the bass (e.g. by 0.6 dB at 30 Hz) according to the effect from the HDVD 800's output impedance?
> 
> From an objective point of view the sound directly from the headphone out is the most honest, an amp will use the very same signal and stamp its own sonic signature/coloration (= harmonic-distortion pattern) onto it. The only imponderability is balanced drive.


Hi JaZZ
I can only tell you what my ears tell me,and my ears tell me that the Dave sounds slightly better,a bit more real when I'm using my amp with it☺


----------



## JaZZ

lovethatsound said:


> Hi JaZZ
> I can only tell you what my ears tell me,and my ears tell me that the Dave sounds slightly better,a bit more real when I'm using my amp with it☺


 
  
 That I don't question. I'm just trying to find out the cause. You know that the HDVD uses a high output impedance (45 ohms or so?) meant to increase the bass according to the HD 800's impedance curve. So what if you do the same (increase the bass) on DAVE's zero-ohm output? (Or alternatively switch two 47-ohm resistors in series to the HD 800.)


----------



## Kamil21

The April edition of HiFi News seems to think that it si worth comparing Dave to theClearAudio Statement turntable.


----------



## lovethatsound

kamil21 said:


> The April edition of HiFi News seems to think that it si worth comparing Dave to theClearAudio Statement turntable.


it's out on the 11th March


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> Got a link to the ant-vibrating plate ?


 
  
 Yes, here it is including a few more photos and a review:
  
 https://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/underboard/tb-38h.html
  
 http://www.highfidelityreview.com/acoustic-revive-tb-38-rst-38-raf-4.html
  
 http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue47/acoustic_revive.htm
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Acoustic-Revive-TB38H-TB-38H-Quartz-Isolation-Under-Board-Power-Supply-Tap/331765622373?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D35852%26meid%3D0c80dd52cf864fb69e0fd12dd3715d07%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D141905879349
  

  

  
 Here's the larger model with air suspension.  Note the high quality finish.  Wood is birch plywood from Finland:


----------



## Beolab

kamil21 said:


> The April edition of HiFi News seems to think that it si worth comparing Dave to theClearAudio Statement turntable.




This is huge, and a must-read review! 

Here we can buy the digital HiFi News version @ the 11th of March : 

 http://www.myhobbystore.co.uk/browser/985/back-issues


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> Yes, but that doesn't explain why I was even more underwhelmed by DAVE's headphone socket to my Sen HD600's, as compared to my Nagra CDC's built in headphone socket, which I had previously considered to be of fairly average quality.
> The HD600's are only mid-level 'phones, but I have heard them scale well enough in the past with different systems.
> 
> At that point I was seriously considering if my sample DAVE was below spec in some way, but my dealer has told me it has blossomed in the meantime with further burn-in.
> ...


 
 I forgot you have an HD600.  That was my first audiophile class headphone and I'd still own it if it didn't break because it's a keeper.  You're right, this headphone scales very well and should have no problems revealing the qualities of the DAVE so all the more interesting that you preferred your Nagra CDC's built-in headphone socket to the DAVE when it really should be no contest.  Having now heard my HE-1000 through the headphone port of the more capable Nagra HD, my opinion is that I easily prefer the DAVE.  My only thought is give a well broken-in DAVE another shot but undoubtedly, you have to go with what your ears are telling you.
  
 Regarding your interconnects, obviously this is not what is holding back your system.
  
 Regarding how a DAC should sound and some may disagree but my feeling on this is that it should only sound one way for each of us and that personal preference should have less to do with it.  Regardless of whether you are a novice listener or a seasoned and discerning audiophile such as yourself, a DAC is either faithful to the full virtues of the recording or it is not.  The music either sounds real or it does not and while your headphones and amp have some role in this, I am finding that the DAC perhaps has the biggest say in it provided that you are starting out with a good digital file.  With DACs, I also don't buy into the idea that you have to have some proverbial golden ear to appreciate its finer qualities because as humans, even if age has hampered our hearing to some extent, we each have an innate qualitative sense of correctness and what sounds natural even if we can't articulate it as well as others.  As the old saying goes, it's like pornography, you can't quite define it in words but you know it when you see it, or with music, you know it when you hear it.  If it takes hours or days, then its probably not there.
  
 Of course, there is the topic of coloration and preferred style of presentation and this is not the same thing as the whether music sounds real or not.  There are some that prefer the fast, focused and full bodied acoustics of the Alice Tully Hall in New York compared to the more bloomy presentation of Carnegie Hall.  There are also some that prefer acoustical music in an intimate setting compared to amplified music in an arena and sometimes, this has more to do with your mood on a certain day, but this is why we own multiple recordings of Mahler's 8th symphony performed in different venues or why we roll out the 300Bs from our tube amp and replace them with 2A3s.  It's why some of us own a more laid back Audeze LCD-3 in addition to a more analytical HD800 or a basshead TH-900.  In my view, coloration belongs to almost any other piece of equipment in our audio chain but *not* the DAC. The DAC just has to be faithful to the recording.  It has to sound analog.
  
 Regarding the specific virtues of the DAVE and what makes it so special, there are already so many people who have chimed in on this but I will sum up in one word what makes the DAVE special for me -- "timing."  Time resolution impacts almost everything.  It impacts tone and timbre.  It can tell you that the lead violinist is playing a Guarneri and not a Stadivarius.  It tells you where your woodwind section is in the orchestra relative to the horns and and how many rows of woodwinds are present.  Because higher pitched voices reach your ears sooner than lower pitched ones, you are aware you are listening to a thousand voices in the choir.  When time resolution is there, then music is an onion, full of layers.  As I've learned to appreciate the qualities that DACs provide, the one quality I have found that has been most difficult for a DAC to recreate is space.  In the same way that a saxophone can only sound good when it breathes, music has to be able to breathe to sound good.  We talk about soundstage width and height but without depth, then the music is flat, and its not something you can convincingly fix by adjusting the reverb on an EQ .  It is this singular feature that differentiated the more basic $10K TotalDac d1-dual from the more sublime $25k TotalDac d1-monobloc and it was enough of a difference for me to spend the extra money. It is this same special quality that has lead me to the DAVE and thus far, I have not heard another DAC do this better.


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> romaz do you had the time / possibility to compare the JPS Labs Superconductor HP with the DHC Spore4 yet, or anyone else ?
> 
> I have heard both good and bad impressions of the SuperConductor HP cable.
> I have only listen to it one time briefly, and it got a little more control in the presentation, but it was very subtle if any vs the the stock cable, but other than that i think it was hard to hear any other greatness ??
> ...


 
 I would like to hear this JPS cable because I am curious as you are.  I once almost bought an Abyss.  In fact, it was the headphone that convinced me to move away from my Stax SR009 but after I had a loaner on hand for nearly a month, I found I had high frequency issues with it.  Because I also had high frequency issues with a pair of JPS Superconductor 3 interconnects I owned, Joe Skubinski suggested I have problems with the higher resolution of his products but if this was true, then why don't I have problems listening to live music which is even higher resolution?  I believe my problem is with the Alumiloy in his cables.  It just sounds bright to me, much more so than the brightest silver cables I've heard and so its interesting to know how this new cable is different.  The ad suggests it may have more copper (and hopefully less Alumiloy) which would be a good thing.  When I heard an Abyss with a Nordost cable that was pure copper a few months ago, I didn't have any high frequency issues at all which has got me thinking that maybe it's time to re-explore the Abyss.  I don't know that I'll have an opportunity soon to listen to this JPS cable but if you do, please report here, especially what you think combined with your DAVE (and if possible, what you think of it without the Headtrip).


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> I would like to hear this JPS cable because I am curious as you are.  I once almost bought an Abyss.  In fact, it was the headphone that convinced me to move away from my Stax SR009 but after I had a loaner on hand for nearly a month, I found I had high frequency issues with it.  Because I also had high frequency issues with a pair of JPS Superconductor 3 interconnects I owned, Joe Skubinski suggested I have problems with the higher resolution of his products but if this was true, then why don't I have problems listening to live music which is even higher resolution?  I believe my problem is with the Alumiloy in his cables.  It just sounds bright to me, much more so than the brightest silver cables I've heard and so its interesting to know how this new cable is different.  The ad suggests it may have more copper (and hopefully less Alumiloy) which would be a good thing.  When I heard an Abyss with a Nordost cable that was pure copper a few months ago, I didn't have any high frequency issues at all which has got me thinking that maybe it's time to re-explore the Abyss.  I don't know that I'll have an opportunity soon to listen to this JPS cable but if you do, please report here, especially what you think combined with your DAVE (and if possible, what you think of it without the Headtrip).




You got the same impression as i have, it is a little veil and unrealistic sound from time to time, but i think with the combination DAVE+Chord Indigo II + Headtrip+Isotek Sirius, the effect is more reduced, and it is much darker and softer, so i do not have the same screamingly high pitch any more, as i had before with all other dac;ś i have tested, which is very good. 

I have not had time to investigate what realy causing this effet, but i think the stock JPS Labs cables could be one factor yes, and the synergy effect with the DAC / Amp and interconnects. 

I think my Artisan Ultimate silver cables combined with MSB Analog / Hugo / PS Audio Perfect Wave, sounded all veil and sharp, it was an unpleasant combo with the Abyss. 

I will test the Superconductor HP as soon as my buddie have them back from a loaner who have kidnaped them for one week, if he doesn't buy them. 

Keep you all updated with my findings.


----------



## Beolab

..//\\..


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> I forgot you have an HD600.  That was my first audiophile class headphone and I'd still own it if it didn't break because it's a keeper.  You're right, this headphone scales very well and should have no problems revealing the qualities of the DAVE so all the more interesting that you preferred your Nagra CDC's built-in headphone socket to the DAVE when it really should be no contest.  Having now heard my HE-1000 through the headphone port of the more capable Nagra HD, my opinion is that I easily prefer the DAVE.  My only thought is give a well broken-in DAVE another shot but undoubtedly, you have to go with what your ears are telling you.
> 
> Regarding your interconnects, obviously this is not what is holding back your system.
> 
> ...




I think you are always spot on, and have a great understanding to express your findings and impressions! 
Always very pleasant to read your well writhed nuanced and interesting postings on this forum! 
✍:tone1:✍:tone1:✍:tone1:k_hand_tone2:k_hand_tone2:k_hand_tone2:


----------



## esimms86

Romaz, which specific options did you choose when navigating the DHC dropdown order menus for your DHC Silver Spore4 cable? Thanks.

Esau


----------



## Rob Watts

The power amp prototype has been stuck on my desk waiting for me to test it for a year now. So my priorities this year is the amp and Davina.
  
 Combining Dave with the amp using the digital outputs, I am eagerly anticipating, as I expect a huge increase in transparency - in short, it will eliminate the sound of a power amp, you will be left with the equivalence of just the sound of Dave driving loudspeakers directly.
  
 Rob


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> The power amp prototype has been stuck on my desk waiting for me to test it for a year now. So my priorities this year is the amp and Davina.
> 
> Combining Dave with the amp using the digital outputs, I am eagerly anticipating, as I expect a huge increase in transparency - in short, it will eliminate the sound of a power amp, *you will be left with the equivalence of just the sound of Dave driving loudspeakers directly.*
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Wow! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Too sad I don't (can't) listen to speakers anymore!


----------



## Beolab

Like a small tank,
 the Chord metall Alu remote , a most have, for the great feeling and weight, the sound gets more promising and weighty when you hold it in your hand or if a friend comes over for a small chat and a listening session


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> The power amp prototype has been stuck on my desk waiting for me to test it for a year now. So my priorities this year is the amp and Davina.
> 
> Combining Dave with the amp using the digital outputs, I am eagerly anticipating, as I expect a huge increase in transparency - in short, it will eliminate the sound of a power amp, you will be left with the equivalence of just the sound of Dave driving loudspeakers directly.
> 
> Rob




This is highly interestingly news Rob. 

Have you decided on how many different power configurations you will have to offer ?


----------



## Mavwong

Very well impression and feedback, I can't be as elaborate and as descriptive as many of you who has contributed to this thread, sorry just very poor in writing . But I find myself share exactly the same opinion, which I never encounter before with other piece of equipment!
  
 Originally Posted by *romaz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif


> First, Rob pointed out that DAVE, like all things, benefits from good mechanical isolation.  My DAVE sits on my desk where its compact size and attractive aesthetics are very much a plus.  I have near-field Omega monitors also sitting on my desk along with a powered subwoofer on the floor and so when music is playing through these speakers, isolation does make a difference.  I have a quad of Black Raviolis that are low profile and do make a difference but I found a more elegant solution that looks like it is custom tailored for the DAVE.  It is the Acoustic Revive TB-38H and is designed to provide isolation for small pieces of equipment like power supplies and I will say that it not only looks good but is very effective.  It is also not very expensive and can be purchased directly from Japan via EBay.  Highly recommended.
> Can't agree more. I had my Dave on poorly isolated TV console. I have using Ansuz diamond isolation feet with it. Just yesterday my dealer come to my place with brand new Ansuz Darkz DTC feet. Dave sounded even darker! Cue up Spanish Harlem by Rebecca Pidgeom, the turning up the vol with the bass vibrating some of my living room furniture DID NOT even shake up the layering and airyness a bit. Highly recomended!
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> This is highly interestingly news Rob.
> 
> Have you decided on how many different power configurations you will have to offer ?


 
 The topology is new, and its scalable, in that I can create any power, so although the first product is 20W or 70W monoblock mode, I will be doing other power amps with different outputs.
  
 The range is not decided yet.
  
 Rob


----------



## romaz

esimms86 said:


> Romaz, which specific options did you choose when navigating the DHC dropdown order menus for your DHC Silver Spore4 cable? Thanks.
> 
> Esau


 
 While the Silver Spore4 is Peter's best cable for full size headphones, he will tell you the Silver Complement4 is very close in performance but lighter and more flexible although I have not heard it.  I guess you'll have to decide if size and weight is important and with a headphone like the HE-1000, it could be.  My HE-1000 uses 2.5 mm connectors with no lock and because the Silver Spore4 is large and heavy, the connection became loose over time and the signal would cut in and out.  It became very frustrating and this is a design flaw of the HE-1000 and not the cable.  I wish they had stayed with the connectors they were using with the HE-6 which are much more secure.  I had to send my HE-1000 in and fortunately, I received excellent customer service and received a new replacement right away.  My current HE-1000 seems to be handling my Silver Spore4 just fine but if it happens again, I might switch to the Silver Complement4.
  
 As for the dropdown choices, Peter will provide you his recommendations on what he prefers but all the options he lists for the Silver Spore4 are of the highest quality.  I like the Eidolac 6.35mm gold jack very much.  I prefer gold to rhodium in general as it seems to add a touch of desired warmth but this is personal preference more than anything else. A good friend who builds cables believes gold yields better bass than rhodium but rhodium yields a slightly quieter noise floor.  I can't confirm this as I haven't done A/B testing but this friend has not steered me wrong yet.  Rhodium plating is more expensive than gold plating but with the Silver Spore4, the difference is insignificant.  As for length, sleeve type, color, split cover, etc., obviously those are personal choices that have no impact on SQ.  I will say that another good friend with a Silver Spore4 compared the SQ differences between a more standard cable length (1.5m?) and a longer cable length (>4m) and there was no drop in perceived SQ.  With Peter's highest end cables, don't feel like you have to get the shortest cable possible to maximize SQ.


----------



## romaz

rob watts said:


> The topology is new, and its scalable, in that I can create any power, so although the first product is 20W or 70W monoblock mode, I will be doing other power amps with different outputs.
> 
> The range is not decided yet.
> 
> Rob


 
 Very exciting and simply revolutionary.  20 watts fits my needs perfectly and it's possible this 20 watt speaker amp could be used to drive the Abyss or HE-6 for those looking for more gain.  
  
 Rob, could you please explain where in this setup your ADC would fit?  John Franks suggested your ADC technology would somehow be incorporated into a consumer product such as a digital preamp although are we talking about a future version of DAVE as I find nothing wrong with the preamp on the DAVE presently?


----------



## Rob Watts

Davina is the first adc which is for analogue inputs so you can listen to vinyl at 768k and record the album at 44.1 at the same time. But really the motivation for the product is a first step towards a pro audio interface so pro recording can be done.
Rob


----------



## romaz

Rob, will you be at CanJam in southern California 19-20 March?


----------



## Rob Watts

romaz said:


> Rob, will you be at CanJam in southern California 19-20 March?


 
 No 'fraid not, John will be though.
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

esimms86 said:


> Romaz, which specific options did you choose when navigating the DHC dropdown order menus for your DHC Silver Spore4 cable? Thanks.
> 
> Esau


 
  
 A few different options to choose from, when it comes to contact plugs, so i have the same question what type of 3 pin xlr romaz is using ?


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

rob watts said:


> The power amp prototype has been stuck on my desk waiting for me to test it for a year now. So my priorities this year is the amp and Davina.
> 
> Combining Dave with the amp using the digital outputs, I am eagerly anticipating, as I expect a huge increase in transparency - in short, it will eliminate the sound of a power amp, you will be left with the equivalence of just the sound of Dave driving loudspeakers directly.
> 
> Rob


 

 Fantastico Rob.   Hope the digital amp will be in the Choral range to match with the Dave !.


----------



## bmichels

rob watts said:


> Yes the upgrade will mean it is better SQ when using the upsampler....
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Rob, does this mean that when using the BLU with DAVE, this "BLU upgrade" won't make any SQ difference since all the up-sampling can be done in the DAVE anyway ?  
  
 In other way, if I have DAVE, can I already buy the "old" BLU without having later to upgrade to the "new" PCB ?


----------



## Kakki

rob watts said:


> The topology is new, and its scalable, in that I can create any power, so although the first product is 20W or 70W monoblock mode, I will be doing other power amps with different outputs.
> 
> The range is not decided yet.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Thank you Rob, for letting us know the latest status of the digital amplifier project!
  
 I'm waiting for your 20w mono-blocks very much and would appreciate your further update.
 (Next update would be ... a nice project name perhaps? Dean came to my mind as it is a digital amplifier! )


----------



## Christer

rob watts said:


> The topology is new, and its scalable, in that I can create any power, so although the first product is 20W or 70W monoblock mode, I will be doing other power amps with different outputs.
> 
> The range is not decided yet.
> 
> Rob


 

 What speakers would be efficient enough to be driven by only 20 watts, or even 70?
 Table top computer speakers?
 The only  real HI FI, full range speakers I can think of would be super efficient horn speakers. My current electrostatic speakers  need hundreds of watts per channel, to reproduce a symphony orchestra att full tilt  effortlessly.
 With classical music there can be peaks and climaxes that demand a lot more than  a hundred watts from most speakers of any real quality I have heard.
 My former  amp wasn't even close to the 500 watts per channel I have now and sounded very stressed by anything over ff not to mention fff.
 Just joking a bit, but I hope you are not designing an amp for  solo acoustic guitar only?


----------



## Christer

lovethatsound said:


> it's out on the 11th March


 

 I haven't read the comparison review ,but one of the things I was thinking of   when auditioning DAVE apart from  raw unedited DXD hi res and mic feed was direct cut LPs at their very best.
 In spite of all the known limitations  of  vinyl there can be a sense of realism and flow that digital as had a hard time to capture and reproduce.
 With direct cut LPs there is no sampling of  the analogue signal. It stays analogue all the way.
 And yes, I am thinking of acoustic large scale symphonic music again. The only genre that will really sort the wheat from the chaff imho.
 Sheffield Labs direct cuts of Stravinsky, Prokofiev and Wagner are still on the list of R2D4.


----------



## Rob Watts

christer said:


> What speakers would be efficient enough to be driven by only 20 watts, or even 70?
> Table top computer speakers?
> The only  real HI FI, full range speakers I can think of would be super efficient horn speakers. My current electrostatic speakers  need hundreds of watts per channel, to reproduce a symphony orchestra att full tilt  effortlessly.
> With classical music there can be peaks and climaxes that demand a lot more than  a hundred watts from most speakers of any real quality I have heard.
> ...


 
 Its just the first model.
  
 Power is fine for near field monitoring, and its transportable, only a bit bigger than Hugo, so applications are are for office, hotel, small room, TV, and when headphones need enormous power.
  
 Other amps will become available at much larger power as I said earlier.
  
 Rob


----------



## Mavwong

I suppose to sleep but I heard headphones! Yes I am interested! Sorry violectric, I will have to wait for Rob's new amp for headphones!



rob watts said:


> Its just the first model.
> 
> Power is fine for near field monitoring, and its transportable, only a bit bigger than Hugo, so applications are are for office, hotel, small room, TV, and when headphones need enormous power.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sonic77

Hopefully they will be relatively affordable.


----------



## ubs28

rob watts said:


> Its just the first model.
> 
> Power is fine for near field monitoring, and its transportable, only a bit bigger than Hugo, so applications are are for office, hotel, small room, TV, and when headphones need enormous power.
> 
> ...




Sounds interesting. Do you need a pre amplifier with the amplifiers that offer more power? 

(I could use a Chord Hugo / Dave --> Chord Amp --> high end loudspeakers? )


----------



## Beolab

I haven't seen or heard the new amps ( sound will most likely be like a powerfull DAVE on steroids ) , but i think i stick with in my oppinion over the top good sound, i havent heard anything better so far, and i have listen to many systems  So this is a keeper rig and waithing for MQA and Rob's DAVIDINA recordings.
 Then the amps is not intended / dedicated headphone amps for higher impedance .


----------



## Hiyono

Found a Japanese post on Dave. 

http://comiccune.jugem.jp/?eid=22&PHPSESSID=g64658gubcc32v2bc6k4imtbu5


----------



## Beolab

Had an extensive listening, comparing my HeadTrip's sound vs Dave's headphone output: 



The DAVE hang on good down to volume 11 = normal listening level, and then it get more stressed out on vol 7-5 , so when it comes to the more bass dynamic heavy parts in the song DAVE does break some svett, but on lower levels like vol 12-17 with the Abyss, it sounding so smooth with details appering that i dont even think the mastering producer have ever heard before. You also find the technical miss outs flaws, unwanted distortion in the song from the studio. 



But i do find you need a separate amp if you want listen to more dynamic music , classical music with high DR on little higher than mid-high level . 

You loose just a slight bit transparency but in the same time it sounds more muscular , where the voices and bass guitar are deeper. 

Compared to Hugo , DAVE is more calm and smooth in the presentation so you can hear DAVE is more powerful than the Hugo, and it is a fairly big difference in btw! 

So a separate amp if you own the Abyss or He-6 is my recommendation, but you would be happy with only the DAVE alone also! 

And in the same time you have two different sound tones from the same DAC, so you can just pick and choose depending on the material and your own mood. 

The deep fluid bass , perspective , timing , detail resolution spaciousness, musicallity , dept and 3D is mentally good, and are the leading key words that describes the sound of DAVE, or we can use one word: 
Ultra Transparency . 

With cross-feed filter set to on 1,2 or 3: 

Here i find great reduction in resolution and spaciousness when you activate cross feed filtering, i do not like it so much, maybe with other headphones but not with the Abyss. 

Just on some tracks i find it to be usefull, but most of the time i have it set to off. 

Without cross-feed filtering i can easy pinpoint where diffrent instruments are located in the studio or in the concert hall, which is impossible with croos-feed when everything is placed in the center of the soundstage. 

World best DAC at the moment, and i hope for a good time to come.


----------



## JaZZ

Beolab, don't be so quick with your crossfeed judgement! I understand that it may sound like a loss of detail at first, but it's detail (signals) of a kind that wouldn't appear in real life. I have occupied extensively with crossfeed, and to my ears good crossfeed actually enables even better instrument localization. It needs some getting used to, though.
  
 DAVE's crossfeed is very good to my ears. Slightly different from the Hugo's, as it seems to me.


----------



## esimms86

Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed answer Romaz. I also have a Sonicorbiter SE and HE1000 along with a StefanArt-modded HD800. A all I need to do now is to insert Dave into my signal chain.☺️


----------



## U2nite

sonic77 said:


> Hopefully they will be relatively affordable.


 
  
 +1
  
 Yes hope the new Dave Dac + Amp will be relatively affordable.


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> A few different options to choose from, when it comes to contact plugs, so i have the same question what type of 3 pin xlr romaz is using ?


 
 Peter recommended the Xhadow XLRs and I have not regretted this recommendation.  They are a $160 upgrade.
  
 Here is a photo with those Xhadow XLRs on one end and 2.5mm connectors on the other end for the HE-1000.  
  

  
  
 This cable in a 3 meter length cost $2,660 with the Xhadow XLRs, almost as much as my HE-1000 and while this was a very tough pill for me to swallow when I first ordered it, looking back, it has been one of the best things I've done.  I no longer consider the HE-1000 complete without them and any headphone I've connected them to (with adapters) has benefited.  Any brightness or harsh glare that was present before is gone.  Enhanced detail and yet you're never aware of it in an analytical sense because the presentation is so smooth and effortless.  Unlike other silver cables that can sound thin and dry, the Silver Spore does not.  They are extremely quiet with zero microphonics.  And before you start thinking Peter is getting rich charging this much for a headphone cable, trying pricing UP-OCC grade silver, the purest continuous (not stranded) cast silver you can buy, and you will be shocked how much the raw materials costs.  There are supposedly only 5 companies in the world where you can buy genuine single crystal OCC wire so be wary of counterfeiters.  As you start to compare other cables, also be wary of what dielectric is used.  Stay away from teflon (PTFE) or polypropylene as a _primary_ dielectric if you can unless you want a "plasticky" sound (they can be ok as a secondary dielectric).  Natural dielectrics, like cotton, are ideal, and all of this applies not just to headphone cables but also analog interconnects.  DHC uses cotton as a primary dielectric in their best cables but not their lower end cables.  For interconnects, DHC makes a Silver Spore interconnect with all of these traits.  Antipodes and Entreq are examples of other interconnect manufacturers that use cotton dielectrics.  I'm sure there are others.
  
 If you own a DAVE, sell your expensive music server and expensive USB and optical cables and consider the best headphone cable and interconnect you can afford.  There are really so few other things to consider with the DAVE which still amazes me.  Unfortunately, with DHC, there are people who placed an order with Peter in October and they're still waiting.  I believe he is a one-man operation and so be prepared to be patient.  It will be like ordering a BHSE amp from Justin Wilson.  It's the price of dealing with a perfectionist.


----------



## Christer

beolab said:


> Had an extensive listening, comparing my HeadTrip's sound vs Dave's headphone output:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I  never use crossfeed with my Hugo.  I have tried it but I too find that it messes up soundstage with simply mic'd recordings.
 If basses are either on the right side or the left  of the stage in the hall, I simply can't understand why one would want to remix them into the center or all over the place as crossfeed seems to do.
 My take on crossfeed is that it is artificial, less transparent and a  clear step away from how the engineer/producer intended, and not at all accurate to how things sounded live in the hall.
 Probably fine for pop and rock where you have no reference to live anyway . But for classical a clear no from  me.


----------



## romaz

christer said:


> What speakers would be efficient enough to be driven by only 20 watts, or even 70?


 
  
 If you're an electrostatic guy, then low power amps are probably foreign to you.  Most SET tube amps put out only a few watts.  With 45 tubes, you're lucky to get 1-2 watts.  With 845 tubes, you can get to as high as 15 watts (sometimes 30 watts) but then you've got an oven that will heat your whole house.  Paired with the right high efficiency speaker (>90dB sensitivity), many will tell you just how magical this can sound because there is a delicacy and nuance that is presented that other speakers that require high power can never produce.  These types of speakers are not for large scale orchestral pieces played at reference levels but for smaller ensembles (string quartet) or intimate vocals.  
  
 Here are two of my favorite high efficiency speakers.  They can be driven well with only 2 watts but sound great with more and they are not desktop or nearfield speakers but rather large floor standers:
  
 Trenner and Friedl Pharoahs (made in Austria)
  

  
 Omega Super Alnico XRS (made in USA)
  

  
 In some ways, these types of speakers can reveal the qualities of the DAVE better than multi-crossover speakers with stiff cones like your more typical B&W or Focal.
  
 Ironically, Chord's 70 watt monoblocks will be too much for these high efficiency floor standers and are better geared for certain book shelf speakers like the KEF LS50.


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> The DAVE hang on good down to volume 11 = normal listening level, and then it get more stressed out on vol 7-5 , so when it comes to the more bass dynamic heavy parts in the song DAVE does break some svett, but on lower levels like vol 12-17 with the Abyss, it sounding so smooth with details appering that i dont even think the mastering producer have ever heard before. You also find the technical miss outs flaws, unwanted distortion in the song from the studio.
> 
> But i do find you need a separate amp if you want listen to more dynamic music , classical music with high DR on little higher than mid-high level .


 
  
 I found this to be the case also.  On the Abyss, with Tchaikovsy's 1812 Overture, I was able to clip the DAVE as the canon's exploded.  Before that point, it sounded very very good.  This is the quandary with the DAVE and the Abyss or HE-6 but this problem should be resolved with Chord's upcoming 20 watt amp and I have a hard time believing that any 20 watt solid state speaker amp will be very expensive.  I hope I'm not wrong.


----------



## bmichels

romaz said:


> .....  Unfortunately, with DHC, there are people who placed an order with Peter in October and they're still waiting.  I believe he is a one-man operation and so be prepared to be patient.  It will be like ordering a BHSE amp from Justin Wilson.  It's the price of dealing with a perfectionist.


 
  
 I just ordered a DHC cable and a BHSE.  So.... I will need to be "double patient "


----------



## Beolab

I had the same struggle with the Hugo , and most of the times had it set to off , or to the green setting. 

What cross-feed filter setting are you using mostly Jazz?


----------



## Kamil21

rob watts said:


> Its just the first model.
> 
> Power is fine for near field monitoring, and its transportable, only a bit bigger than Hugo, so applications are are for office, hotel, small room, TV, and when headphones need enormous power.
> 
> ...




Way to go Rob! Can't wait. 

Will it also be battery powered?


----------



## Beolab

Sounding very interesting if it as small as a Hugo. Will it have a 6,3mm headphone output beside speaker outputs also ? 

Price point like 1500 Euro maybe .


----------



## Christer

romaz said:


> I found this to be the case also.  On the Abyss, with Tchaikovsy's 1812 Overture, I was able to clip the DAVE as the canon's exploded.  Before that point, it sounded very very good.  This is the quandary with the DAVE and the Abyss or HE-6 but this problem should be resolved with Chord's upcoming 20 watt amp and I have a hard time believing that any 20 watt solid state speaker amp will be very expensive.  I hope I'm not wrong.


 
 At the price-point asked for DAVE or any other HI FI product above a few thousand dollars I EXPECT full compatibility and ENOUGH POWER to drive any and I mean ANY dynamic or planar headphone on the market!
 Anything else is a design fault IMO!
 I can understand if products like Hugo or Mojo will not deliver all the power needed for large scale symphonic music  at fff .They are after all intended for the portable market. But there is no excuse for having to add a headphone amp to a product like DAVE with any other headphones than electrostats.
 IMO absolutely no excuse!
 Sorry to be blunt. 
 I was surprised and disappointed  that Rob had not even tested his Dacs with  popular planar headphones like HE1000.
 I am not a fanboy of any designer or company, neither in the recording industry nor the consumer market.
 IMO Rob had all the time he needed to test his supposed   STATE OF THE ART product DAVE with any high end  headphone on the market instead of the obviously very limited choices he used during the development and fine tuning of DAVE. 
 With classical music sufficient power is absolutely essential!
 Ok Tchaikovsky's  1812 is exceptional even in the genre of classical music and cannons are not generally to be  found in any orchestra.
 But the dynamic range of large scale symphonic and Operatic music is FAR GREATER than with popular music which in most cases is severally  lacking in dynamic range. The dynamic range in basically any of Shostakovich's symphonies  for example, ranges from barely audible, to almost painfully loud!! 
 That said,I was very  impressed by DAVE during the few hours I auditioned it.Two good recordings of the 10th and 15th are the live 10th from BSO that I already recommended ,and the 24/192 pcm one of the 15th from  the German label Acousense. But if it turns out that I would need to buy an extra  amp to drive any dynamic headphone of MY CHOICE, with DAVE I would  feel cheated, not happy that they are adding a headphone amp to their product line, as some here seem to be.


----------



## Frank I

I have the review sample f the DAVE and been using it for 3 weeks solid and it sounds spectacular. The DAC is among the veyr bets I have heard. I will be using lot of  wide range classical recordings this week with the DAVE amp and see what the amplifier is capable of performing at.  I am most impressed with the DAC using it  both with my other reference amplifiers and 2channel listening.  The unit is musical and tonality is spot on.  Rob Watts has done it again with another reference equality product. The folks at Chord continue to inspire with there musicality and analog sounding digital products which always make me smile.  Rob is one of the brightest and gifted designers in the world today. I will cry when this DAC leaves my listening room.


----------



## m0nster

frank i said:


> I have the review sample f the DAVE and been using it for 3 weeks solid and it sounds spectacular. The DAC is among the veyr bets I have heard. I will be using lot of  wide range classical recordings this week with the DAVE amp and see what the amplifier is capable of performing at.  I am most impressed with the DAC using it  both with my other reference amplifiers and 2channel listening.  The unit is musical and tonality is spot on.  Rob Watts has done it again with another reference equality product. The folks at Chord continue to inspire with there musicality and analog sounding digital products which always make me smile.  Rob is one of the brightest and gifted designers in the world today. I will cry when this DAC leaves my listening room.




Don't cry because of what you lost, smile because of what you heard instead!
Thank you for your impressions, could you post a link to your review once you have finished it? Would love to read it, though I am pretty certain that it will make me cry until I can afford a DAVE :-D


----------



## Christer

romaz said:


> If you're an electrostatic guy, then low power amps are probably foreign to you.  Most SET tube amps put out only a few watts.  With 45 tubes, you're lucky to get 1-2 watts.  With 845 tubes, you can get to as high as 15 watts (sometimes 30 watts) but then you've got an oven that will heat your whole house.  Paired with the right high efficiency speaker (>90dB sensitivity), many will tell you just how magical this can sound because there is a delicacy and nuance that is presented that other speakers that require high power can never produce.  These types of speakers are not for large scale orchestral pieces played at reference levels but for smaller ensembles (string quartet) or intimate vocals.
> 
> Here are two of my favorite high efficiency speakers.  They can be driven well with only 2 watts but sound great with more and they are not desktop or nearfield speakers but rather large floor standers:
> 
> ...


 

 It is not that they are foreign to me I used to have a pair of really Huge several hundred litres three way horn speakers bigger than coffins , but easy to drive with a 30 watts per channel  class A amp.
 Impressive in many ways, But  the problem was they were as basically every  multi crossover  horn and box speakers very coloured in the midrange .
 But bass from the 15" woofers in their huge horn was the most powerful and deep-reaching I have had in my home.
 Crystal Clear's direct cut LP of  Bach's Toccata and Fugue among much else via those monsters was truly impressive.
 Nowadays I find electrostats the most transparent  and uncoloured speakers I have heard for classical music.
 Magnetostatics come close. But I prefer electrostats for their even higher resolution.Imho the same applies with headphones.
 Electrostats are basically a reversed microphone.
 Talking about speakers in general most have much higher distortion levels than anything else  in most systems. 
 A transparent DAC or amp in combination with a compromised ordinary multi crossover box speaker will still sound bad.
 By the way the speakers in your photos remind me of the cheaper speakers a friend of mine used to build and sell . But they were, although even easier to drive than my  huge horn   speakers, even more coloured and unsuitable for classical music.
 These look as if they box will add a lot of colouration too?


----------



## Beolab

christer said:


> At the price-point asked for DAVE or any other HI FI product above a few thousand dollars I EXPECT full compatibility and ENOUGH POWER to drive any and I mean ANY dynamic or planar headphone on the market!
> Anything else is a design fault IMO!
> I can understand if products like Hugo or Mojo will not deliver all the power needed for large scale symphonic music  at fff .They are after all intended for the portable market. But there is no excuse for having to add a headphone amp to a product like DAVE with any other headphones than electrostats.
> IMO absolutely no excuse!
> ...




It is impossible to find another combined DAC/ Amp that can drive and control the Abyss / HE-1000 / He-6 like the Dave does what ever price range you look at. 
 Then the DAVE does not have an amp, so it is just the internal signal if i simplify it you are listening to, and that is remarkable how good it is, if you see it from that perspective. 

Then i find it remarkable how close it is to my external amp with 17 Watts and much more on tap at 46 Ohm, it is not a huge difference, just better current drive from the amp, but there is a remarkably big size difference, the amp is like 7 times bigger in volume wise than DAVE. 

Then i find it as a hobby to build the best possible hifi rigs that got great synergy , so if it was just one product you needed ( Dave ) to buy, then i find it pretty boring as a hobby , when it is also immune to noise , digital cables and sources.


----------



## JaZZ

christer said:


> I  never use crossfeed with my Hugo. I have tried it but I too find that it messes up soundstage with simply mic'd recordings.
> If basses are either on the right side or the left of the stage in the hall, I simply can't understand why one would want to remix them into the center or all over the place as crossfeed seems to do.
> My take on crossfeed is that it is artificial, less transparent and a clear step away from how the engineer/producer intended, and not at all accurate to how things sounded live in the hall.
> Probably fine for pop and rock where you have no reference to live anyway. But for classical a clear no from  me.


 
  
 There are a few points you seem to misunderstand:
  
_«If basses are either on the right side or the left of the stage in the hall, I simply can't understand why one would want to remix them into the center or all over the place as crossfeed seems to do.»_
  
 Crossfeed doesn't shift «the bass» to the center, just the low-frequency content of it.
  
_«My take on crossfeed is that it is artificial, less transparent and a clear step away from how the engineer/producer intended, and not at all accurate to how things sounded live in the hall.»_
  
 The most importing thing to consider is that you listen to music recorded for the reproduction through speakers. The recording engineer had no intention to make it sound natural/realistic when heard through headphones. That's why it sounds artificial through headphones: low-frequency tones are unnaturally (up to irritatingly) spread on the two channels. In the everyday world our two ears never get to hear one-sided bass tones, because the shading effect of the head doesn't work with such large wavelengths.
  
 The problem is that «we» are so used to this characteristic (for lack of alternative references) that we tend to miss the fake soundstage content and rate its absence as a loss of spatial information. In my book a good crossfeed almost perfectly recreates a natural tonal balance among the channel separation.
  
 As posted earlier:
  


jazz said:


> Roughly spoken, crossfeed monophonizes low frequencies – the lower, the more crosstalk between the channels, up to 100%. Stage 1 has the lowest low-pass frequency for the crosstalk, stage 3 the highest – it's meant for the most critical recordings (see below).
> 
> As you may have noticed, crossfeed only works with headphones. The reason is that 99.9% of the recordings people listen to through DAVE are made for a reproduction through speakers. They're not completely compatible with headphones, although most may be used to the flaws introduced by the mismatch. In the real world it's impossible to hear low frequencies just in one ear. Now almost all recordings contain such one-sided low-frequency signals. They lead to an irritation of the brain or more precisely the auditory cortex. Crossfeed can almost perfectly compensate for that. That doesn't mean the recording is now perfectly compatible to headphone listening, since recordings made for speakers are supposed to be listened in a somewhat reverberative listening room, so they will sound drier than intended when heard through headphones. But the intimacy created that way is a trademark of headphones and not necessarily a bad thing if you like it.
> 
> Recordings specifically for headphones do exist – they're called binaural recordings. Among the few I've heard I haven't found one that was really convincing to my ears, though. A general weakness is the lack of perceived frontal sound impact. That may be my ears, since others have reported different experiences.


 
  


beolab said:


> I had the same struggle with the Hugo, and most of the times had it set to off , or to the green setting.
> 
> What cross-feed filter setting are you using mostly Jazz?


 
  
 You seem to have missed my previous answer:


jazz said:


> beolab said:
> 
> 
> > Great info!
> ...


 
  


christer said:


> At the price-point asked for DAVE or any other HI FI product above a few thousand dollars I EXPECT full compatibility and ENOUGH POWER to drive any and I mean ANY dynamic or planar headphone on the market!
> Anything else is a design fault IMO!
> I can understand if products like Hugo or Mojo will not deliver all the power needed for large scale symphonic music  at fff .They are after all intended for the portable market. But there is no excuse for having to add a headphone amp to a product like DAVE with any other headphones than electrostats.
> IMO absolutely no excuse!
> ...


 
  
 Wow, you're an extremely demanding consumer! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Would you also add the AKG K 1000 to the list – a headphone explicitly designed to be used with speaker amps? I think the same applies to the HE-6 and maybe even the Abyss if you must listen that loud.
  
 I can report that DAVE's headphone output works great (even more than that) with the HE1000, with the HD 800 anyway. I don't own any more demanding headphones for testing. But the power/gain reserve I get from DAVE tells me that except for some exotic designs it will drive all dynamic headphones on the planet.
  
 Your claim also implies that DAVE should do all this with its puristic concept of a DAC output stage driving headphones directly instead of switching additional amplifying electronics to the signal path. Or maybe you just underestimate this approach, which for me is a key feature, like it is with the Hugo, and a reason for the extraordinary transparency and accuracy.
  


beolab said:


> ICE, with DAVE I would  feel cheated, not happy that they are adding a headphone amp to their product line, as some here seem to be.
> 
> It is impossible to find another combined DAC/ Amp that can drive and control the Abyss / HE-1000 / He-6 like the Dave does what ever price range you look at.
> Then the DAVE does not have an amp, so it is just the internal signal if i simplify it you are listening to, and that is remarkable how good it is, if you see it from that perspective.
> ...


 
  
 The last bit is a good one! – I bet Christer will add a headphone amp – after extensive, laborious and fascinating search for optimal synergy and the matching interconnects – no matter if necessary or not.


----------



## Rob Watts

christer said:


> At the price-point asked for DAVE or any other HI FI product above a few thousand dollars I EXPECT full compatibility and ENOUGH POWER to drive any and I mean ANY dynamic or planar headphone on the market!
> Anything else is a design fault IMO!
> I can understand if products like Hugo or Mojo will not deliver all the power needed for large scale symphonic music  at fff .They are after all intended for the portable market. But there is no excuse for having to add a headphone amp to a product like DAVE with any other headphones than electrostats.
> IMO absolutely no excuse!
> ...


 
  
 I merely stated that the headphones I used were " Headphones - Noble K10, Audeze, and Nighthawks." Now these are the headphones I keep in my lab, and use on a day to day development basis. This categorically is not the full testing that we do, and the pre-production unit was indeed listened to with the HE1000, along with all popular models of headphones. Chord are now perceived within the industry to be the market leaders in DAC technology, so we have access to all the major headphone brands. Frankly, our testing revealed only one headphone that needed more power to drive correctly (more power is indicated by volume exceeding +4dB as this is the point it may clip). That said, this was using volume levels that were reasonable - but I have seen some head-fiers using volume levels that are frankly deafening.
  
 As to your request to make a product that will suit 100% of all headphones then this is complete nonsense. It is impossible to make a truly transparent DAC/amp that will work effectively with the most sensitive devices to the most inefficient headphones. Additionally, I categorically will not attempt to make poor sounding headphones sound great; my job is to make the most transparent DAC/amp possible, on the assumption that it will be paired with appropriately linear and transparent headphones. I do not and will not make a soft sounding device to balance a distorting and hard sounding set of headphones for example. My drive for musicality and transparency will mean that some headphones are not appropriate choices for use with Dave; no product can be the optimum solution for absolutely all devices out there - added to this is the question of the biggest variable, that being the taste of the listener.
  
 I am starting to get somewhat annoyed about your postings - you seem to want to twist absolutely everything I say and put considerable negative spin on things. Sadly I will not in future be responding to your posts.
  
 Rob


----------



## Christer

jazz said:


> There are a few points you seem to misunderstand:
> 
> _«If basses are either on the right side or the left of the stage in the hall, I simply can't understand why one would want to remix them into the center or all over the place as crossfeed seems to do.»_
> 
> ...


 

 I was intentionally  a bit provocative and  it sure triggered responses.
 But I still  expect a non compromise approach from such expensive products as DAVE.
 The not bigger than Hugo or whatever , amp Rob is working on could  imo ,easily have been included in DAVE not as  an afterthought add on when customers start moaning of lack of power, imo.
 Regarding Classical most  probably all,labels monitor and balance via headphones  at sessions.
  
 In some cases mixing for speaker listening is not even done at the sessions at all!  But in a different  studio long after the actual  recording was done.  
 I have covered sessions with quite a few  classical labels.
 I know firsthand.
 Regarding bass:what else than mainly low notes ie bass, do you expect  from basses?
 I am talking about those  big normally 8 to 10 string instruments of a symphony orchestra which some conductors either put on the right or the left of the stage for certain works.
 Some conductors  put them  at the back  in the middle. Ivan Fischer did so for Mahler symphony sessions in Budapest.
 So did a young conductor live  in KL recently in Mahler's 9th too.
 By the way Jared Sacks  of Channel Classics uses the AKG 1000 as monitoring headphones during sessions .  I have listened both to mic-feed and DSD 64 raw via those.Very open and clear but still not quite  electrostats.
 Regarding Beolab's response I have more than a little problem to make  sense of what he writes sometimes. Maybe it would be better for us two to communicate in Swedish?
 But although HIFI and the closest approach to live acoustic music  has been a hobby of mine too for many years. I don't find it at all boring when products  especially in this elevated price range, work as close as possible to that reference without any additional /fiddling/ tweaking and super expensive add ons and cabling or whatever the HIFI industry uses to skim  gullible consumers of their money when they know  their wallets are thicker than their logic and  understanding of what HIFI really is.


----------



## m0nster

I can imagine how much patience it takes to read comments like this about the product you have spent years developing and which is frankly a ground breaking new design at the very least. I have read and heard more than once that it might be the most revealing DAC on the market right now. Of course I haven't heard/compared the most expensive systems and I certainly don't have "reference ears" either, but I think was Chord is doing adds great value to the HiFi community.

I admire it (as stated before) that the developer of the product takes the time to participate in the discussion here and takes time to answer questions more than once at times. I would consider it a big loss if he stopped doing so because of posts that are only meant to provoce a reaction.

And frankly I don't think the DAVE is overpriced for what it is, nor is the Hugo or Mojo.

Looking forward to lots more interesting and helpful posts


----------



## Christer

rob watts said:


> I merely stated that the headphones I used were " Headphones - Noble K10, Audeze, and Nighthawks." Now these are the headphones I keep in my lab, and use on a day to day development basis. This categorically is not the full testing that we do, and the pre-production unit was indeed listened to with the HE1000, along with all popular models of headphones. Chord are now perceived within the industry to be the market leaders in DAC technology, so we have access to all the major headphone brands. Frankly, our testing revealed only one headphone that needed more power to drive correctly (more power is indicated by volume exceeding +4dB as this is the point it may clip). That said, this was using volume levels that were reasonable - but I have seen some head-fiers using volume levels that are frankly deafening.
> 
> As to your request to make a product that will suit 100% of all headphones then this is complete nonsense. It is impossible to make a truly transparent DAC/amp that will work effectively with the most sensitive devices to the most inefficient headphones. Additionally, I categorically will not attempt to make poor sounding headphones sound great; my job is to make the most transparent DAC/amp possible, on the assumption that it will be paired with appropriately linear and transparent headphones. I do not and will not make a soft sounding device to balance a distorting and hard sounding set of headphones for example. My drive for musicality and transparency will mean that some headphones are not appropriate choices for use with Dave; no product can be the optimum solution for absolutely all devices out there - added to this is the question of the biggest variable, that being the taste of the listener.
> 
> ...


 

 Oops, I accidentally  stepped on some  sensitive toes?  I was intentionally a bit provocative.Not directed at you personally.
 It was more my reaction to the sometimes completely "uncritical fanboyism" one  sometimes meets in Forums like this one.
 My intention is not and had never been " to twist absolutely everything  and put a considerable negative spin on things".  How could you even say so after all the praise I have heaped on your DACs???
 A few posts back I just reported that  DAVE is probably the  best most transparent  DAC I have ever  heard!
 Likewise I reported here that I was baffled at how good little Mojo sounded.
 But yes I was and still am, surprised that you had not personally used a bigger selection of headphones and  speakers.
 And I was not asking for  DAVE to "suit all dynamic headphones". There are a lot of really bad ones that it would be an absolute waste to even plug into DAVE or  Hugo or Mojo!
 All of which are exceptionally good DACs that to my ears  put most of the competition far behind  as I have repeatedly posted here and elsewhere.
 I was merely reacting to a couple of critical  posts from others and even added in DAVE's defence, that cannons as in Tchaikovsky's 1812 are not normally a part of  a symphony orchestra.
 I had no problems with HE1000 and DAVE.
 I was absolutely raving about it.
 I was  also merely  expecting  to be able to question and discuss  important things in an open and honest, if admittedly as I said" sorry if I am a a bit blunt", way with someone  like you.
 But obviously not?
 Sorry if I have offended you. I repeat,not at all my intention.But as a consumer  expected to pay big money,I still feel that I have the right to ask even a few a bit inconvenient and blunt questions once in a while in a Forum like this.


----------



## rgs9200m

I have the Hugo TT, and I feel that Rob Watts is up there with up there with Edgar Villchur and Henry Kloss as a pioneer in bringing breakthrough revolutionary innovations to audio. All I can think of when listening to my Hugo TT is that I just never believed that my almost 30-year old CDs copied to my computer could sound so magnificent. Rob is a real hero to me and I can't even imagine being critical of his products.


----------



## JaZZ

christer said:


> I was intentionally a bit provocative and  it sure triggered responses.
> But I still expect a non compromise approach from such expensive products as DAVE.
> The not bigger than Hugo or whatever amp Rob is working on could  imo easily have been included in DAVE not as an afterthought add on when customers start moaning of lack of power, imo.


 
  
 So DAVE should have come with the upcoming sophisticated digital amp integrated from the start – for the same price? Are you sure you're being serious? I'm glad I don't have to pay the surcharge for it – since yours is an absurdly unrealistic scenario.
  


christer said:


> In some cases mixing for speaker listening is not even done at the sessions at all!  But in a different studio long after the actual recording was done. I have covered sessions with quite a few classical labels. I know firsthand.


 
  
 That may indeed happen. It doesn't change the fact that the recordings are made for speakers, usually without caring for headphone listeners. And it doesn't change the fact that virtually all recordings I've encountered during my long crossfeeding career carry excentric low-frequency signals. To varying degrees.
  


> Regarding bass:what else than *mainly* low notes ie bass, do you expect  from basses?


 
  
 I'm a (ex-)bass player myself and still own a double bass, now more or less just for decorative purposes. They produce a lot of other frequencies except for the ones below say 150-250 Hz. As you'll easily see on corresponding graphs. Turn down the upper frequencies during a part with stringed bass only, and you'll hear it yourself.
  
 So even if you hear a bass drum on the left side of your head, the right ear will get almost the same amount of the low-frequency content, increasingly so with decreasing frequency. And if you once have the guts to explore your music collection for the channel balance of the low-frequency content, you'll notice that it's fairly uneven. So if you're really interested in a natural, realistic reproduction, you should take care of this.


----------



## Rob Watts

m0nster said:


> I can imagine how much patience it takes to read comments like this about the product you have spent years developing and which is frankly a ground breaking new design at the very least. I have read and heard more than once that it might be the most revealing DAC on the market right now. Of course I haven't heard/compared the most expensive systems and I certainly don't have "reference ears" either, but I think was Chord is doing adds great value to the HiFi community.
> 
> I admire it (as stated before) that the developer of the product takes the time to participate in the discussion here and takes time to answer questions more than once at times. I would consider it a big loss if he stopped doing so because of posts that are only meant to provoce a reaction.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Don't worry, I very much enjoy being engaged in the community and at meets and shows, so the posting won't stop. I like to talk about my work too and I hope that people find it interesting. Indeed, I have agreed with Jude to start a blog, so I can go into more details technically about subjects, and maybe talk about other things, such as a diary about the ADC and the power amp development.
  
 Also, I enjoy being challenged as nobody has a perfect understanding; sometimes a challenge can inspire me to work harder in other directions, and that can result in a positive outcome in terms of my understanding and better products. Being questioned means I have to think more to establish where my assumptions are, and this is always a good thing. But there is a fine line between an honest challenge about a difference of opinion and just being plane confrontational.
  
 Rob


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> I merely stated that the headphones I used were " Headphones - Noble K10, Audeze, and Nighthawks." Now these are the headphones I keep in my lab, and use on a day to day development basis. This categorically is not the full testing that we do, and the pre-production unit was indeed listened to with the HE1000, along with all popular models of headphones. Chord are now perceived within the industry to be the market leaders in DAC technology, so we have access to all the major headphone brands. Frankly, our testing revealed only one headphone that needed more power to drive correctly (more power is indicated by volume exceeding +4dB as this is the point it may clip). That said, this was using volume levels that were reasonable - but I have seen some head-fiers using volume levels that are frankly deafening.
> 
> As to your request to make a product that will suit 100% of all headphones then this is complete nonsense. It is impossible to make a truly transparent DAC/amp that will work effectively with the most sensitive devices to the most inefficient headphones. Additionally, I categorically will not attempt to make poor sounding headphones sound great; my job is to make the most transparent DAC/amp possible, on the assumption that it will be paired with appropriately linear and transparent headphones. I do not and will not make a soft sounding device to balance a distorting and hard sounding set of headphones for example. My drive for musicality and transparency will mean that some headphones are not appropriate choices for use with Dave; no product can be the optimum solution for absolutely all devices out there - added to this is the question of the biggest variable, that being the taste of the listener.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Rob, please don't feel too offended by Christer's post and his unrealistic aproach! And don't stop posting here! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 We love you! Even Christer – he really isn't the bad person as which he's been displaying himself – is a fan of you.


----------



## m0nster

rob watts said:


> Don't worry, I very much enjoy being engaged in the community and at meets and shows, so the posting won't stop. I like to talk about my work too and I hope that people find it interesting. Indeed, I have agreed with Jude to start a blog, so I can go into more details technically about subjects, and maybe talk about other things, such as a diary about the ADC and the power amp development.
> 
> Also, I enjoy being challenged as nobody has a perfect understanding; sometimes a challenge can inspire me to work harder in other directions, and that can result in a positive outcome in terms of my understanding and better products. Being questioned means I have to think more to establish where my assumptions are, and this is always a good thing. But there is a fine line between an honest challenge about a difference of opinion and just being plane confrontational.
> 
> Rob




The blog is a very cool idea, will you post the link in here once you begin writing it?

I don't think you would be where you are today if you wouldn't be open to critical questions and open discussions. I read that you even "lose" most design discussions concerning the Chord products 

Anyways, happy to hear that you will keep being involved on here!

Have a great time!


----------



## Christer

rob watts said:


> Don't worry, I very much enjoy being engaged in the community and at meets and shows, so the posting won't stop. I like to talk about my work too and I hope that people find it interesting. Indeed, I have agreed with Jude to start a blog, so I can go into more details technically about subjects, and maybe talk about other things, such as a diary about the ADC and the power amp development.
> 
> Also, I enjoy being challenged as nobody has a perfect understanding; sometimes a challenge can inspire me to work harder in other directions, and that can result in a positive outcome in terms of my understanding and better products. Being questioned means I have to think more to establish where my assumptions are, and this is always a good thing. But there is a fine line between an honest challenge about a difference of opinion and just being plane confrontational.
> 
> Rob


 

 And here I am, scratching my head as to where and when and how I crossed that fine line?


----------



## Rob Watts

Ha ha! Yes I often do not win on important issues like colour of LED's or where connectors should go! But audio related decisions are all mine...


----------



## edstrelow

"
So even if you hear a bass drum on the left side of your head, the right ear will get almost the same amount of the low-frequency content, increasingly so with decreasing frequency. "

This is true for real listening situations and possibly speakers too, but not for headphones. The head creates a shadow for higher frequencies, but not as you say "increasingly so with decreasing frequency." Thus it is hard to precisely localize low frequency sounds because much the same low frequency signal makes it to both ears. Of course if you can see an instrument the visual information will tell you where the source is. 

Except for binaural recordings, headphones rely on interaural amplitude differences at the two ears, as do speakers. These are the fundamental sources of directional information in commercial stereo. Headphones preserve any differences between the two channels, even low frequencies. Thus you can have better directional perception of low frequencies with headphones, than speakers.


----------



## JaZZ

edstrelow said:


> "
> So even if you hear a bass drum on the left side of your head, the right ear will get almost the same amount of the low-frequency content, increasingly so with decreasing frequency. "
> 
> This is true for real listening situations and possibly speakers too, but not for headphones. The head creates a shadow for higher frequencies, but not as you say "increasingly so with decreasing frequency." Thus it is hard to precisely localize low frequency sounds because much the same low frequency signal makes it to both ears. Of course if you can see an instrument the visual information will tell you where the source is.
> ...


 
  
 You're in fact confirming my statement, as I was speaking of a real-life scenario, not headphone listening. So while you perceive the localization of low-frequency events through headphones as a bonus, I don't. It sounds just plain unrealistic and irritating. That's where crossfeed comes into play.


----------



## m0nster

rob watts said:


> Ha ha! Yes I often do not win on important issues like colour of LED's or where connectors should go! But audio related decisions are all mine...




Now please don't make fun about us simple people that care if a LED is blinking red or green 

Jokes aside, I really enjoy all the technical details, even though I don't understand half of it. Especially why DSD is not as good as everyone says is a challenge for me to understand. Will definitely have to read that post again.


----------



## romaz

christer said:


> At the price-point asked for DAVE or any other HI FI product above a few thousand dollars I EXPECT full compatibility and ENOUGH POWER to drive any and I mean ANY dynamic or planar headphone on the market!
> Anything else is a design fault IMO!
> I can understand if products like Hugo or Mojo will not deliver all the power needed for large scale symphonic music  at fff .They are after all intended for the portable market. But there is no excuse for having to add a headphone amp to a product like DAVE with any other headphones than electrostats.
> IMO absolutely no excuse!
> ...


 
 I can understand what you're saying but given all that the DAVE does so well in such a revolutionary way, maybe your criticism is a bit harsh.  Regardless of what Rob used in his testing process, I have listened to several TOTL headphones now with the DAVE including the HE-1000, HD800, LCD-4, Abyss, Dharma and Noble Kaiser 10 IEMs and I have never heard these phones sound better.  In fact, I have never had a better headphone experience period.  The Abyss (and HE-6) are anomalies in the headphone world as they are really more ear speakers then they are typical headphones.  These units actually thrive when connected to speaker amps.  Beolab's Wells Audio Headtrip was specifically designed for the Abyss and puts out 50 watts at 8 ohms and 25 watts at 32 ohms, overkill for just about any other headphone except the Abyss and HE-6 and so to expect Rob to accommodate these 2 specific low volume headphones, as special as they are, is perhaps too much to ask, especially as it would probably drive the price of the DAVE higher and impact the size and heat output of the DAVE.  Those of us who don't have an Abyss or HE-6 would be complaining.
  
 Lastly, I think few grasp the significance of his new amps and how truly revolutionary this is.  We all know about the number of TAPs and the noise shapers, etc. but one of the reasons my headphone experience exceeds my 2-channel experience with the DAVE is because my headphones directly tap the signal output of the DAVE.  With headphones, I am able to completely benefit from the full bandwidth of the DAVE and its ultra-low noise floor without the limitations of an outboard amp.  To be able to now extend this benefit to 2-channel will be groundbreaking and I expect to be there to audition just how good this will sound when it becomes available.  Again, I am new to Chord and have been critical of other Chord products including the Hugo but it is just amazing what kind of innovation is going on with this company now.


----------



## JaZZ

I agree, Romaz.


----------



## lovethatsound

I'm got to admit I'm a bit surprised about the lack of posts on here about one very big major achievement of the Dave,Rob,Digital cables,the fact they all sound the same,no matter what make they are,no matter how much they cost.this has got to be a real big thing,surely a massive market game changer.So come on Rob,how have you done it,and can it be done with analogue cables as well?


----------



## romaz

christer said:


> It is not that they are foreign to me I used to have a pair of really Huge several hundred litres three way horn speakers bigger than coffins , but easy to drive with a 30 watts per channel  class A amp.
> Impressive in many ways, But  the problem was they were as basically every  multi crossover  horn and box speakers very coloured in the midrange .
> But bass from the 15" woofers in their huge horn was the most powerful and deep-reaching I have had in my home.
> Crystal Clear's direct cut LP of  Bach's Toccata and Fugue among much else via those monsters was truly impressive.
> ...


 
 The Trenner & Friedl Pharoahs are based on horns.  They pair well with tubes and are designed to be emotive and so yes, they are colored and have a slightly warm signature.  With vocals and acoustical music, they are sublime.
  
 The Omega Alnicos are very neutral and very transparent but probably not electrostatic transparent.  They are a single driver and crossover-less design and have a very fast and nimble full range driver.  For classical music, they are wonderful.
  
 I suspect both would pair exquisitely with the DAVE and Chord's upcoming 20 watt amp.


----------



## edstrelow

jazz said:


> You're in fact confirming my statement, as I was speaking of a real-life scenario, not headphone listening. So while you perceive the localization of low-frequency events through headphones as a bonus, I don't. It sounds just plain unrealistic and irritating. That's where crossfeed comes into play.


 
  Assuming that you are  only crossfeeding low frequencies that would be true. There are a lot of different things done in the name of crossfeed, from simple stereo blend where you go from full stereo to monaural sound, to whatever proprietary process some enterprising manufacturer thinks might sound interesting.  Years ago I had a blend control but after playing with it a bit, never used it again. 
  
 The problem is that it's an artificial way of trying to make headphones sound like speakers.  This misses the point because speakers don't give realistic stereo anyway because each ear ends up hearing both channels. In effect speakers turn two channel stereo into 4 channels, with two of the channels delayed by the time needed, for example, for the left channel speaker sound to get to the right ear and vice versa.  Better in my opinion to try to clean up the bad stereo that speakers give, as Polk did years ago with their SDA speakers and I recall Carver did with a pre-amp.  Both essentially suppress the two extra "phantom channels."
  
 I note that none of the Stax amps, some of which go up to $6K include crossfeed nor does the new Sennheiser supersystem, as best I can tell, certainly the old Orpheus didn't.  But it is a hobby after all and to each his own.


----------



## JaZZ

edstrelow said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > You're in fact confirming my statement, as I was speaking of a real-life scenario, not headphone listening. So while you perceive the localization of low-frequency events through headphones as a bonus, I don't. It sounds just plain unrealistic and irritating. That's where crossfeed comes into play.
> ...


 
  
 Yes, there were some very special implementations of crossfeed – I remember the one from HeadRoom (never heard myself, though). On the other hand, Jan Meier's crossfeed was a simple monophonizing of low frequencies from the start, improved with a more sophisticated filter in later models (e.g. Concerto). Chord's crossfeed in Hugo and DAVE also belongs to the low-frequency crosstalk types – as I hear it –, and so does my own.
  
 Now to the «artificial way» of mimicking speakers – or actually rather real-life sound (since headphones don't create phantom channels per se) – with the help of crossfeed. Everything in audio reproduction is artificial: from the microphones via recordings, digitization, DA conversion, amplification up to sound transducers. What does that tell about the quality of the reproduction? It will always sound a bit artificial compared to the real thing. But how does that speak against crossfeed in particular? I say: It definitely brings the sound closer to reality, since a channel imbalance at low frequencies is unnatural, thus an artificial enhancement of the stereo effect. Allow yourself to enjoy some early Beatles recordings through headphones without crossfeed! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Well, there are in fact occasions in real life where a low-frequency channel imbalance may occur, namely in rooms with yourself (with one ear) close to a wall. But the effect is certainly unwanted and the sound still unnatural due to the resonant characteristic.


----------



## Jawed

lovethatsound said:


> I'm got to admit I'm a bit surprised about the lack of posts on here about one very big major achievement of the Dave,Rob,Digital cables,the fact they all sound the same,no matter what make they are,no matter how much they cost.this has got to be a real big thing,surely a massive market game changer.



This might be true of Hugo TT, too. I have no idea how similar these two are in this respect, though.


----------



## Jawed

As to crossfeed, it usually changes the relative strength of the bass in the mix. Often the bass ends up sounding louder (especially with pop/rock).

Some early stereo jazz sounds broken with crossfeed. My theory is that this is due to an anti-phase bass response in the opposite channel from where the double-bassist is playing, for example. That's how the recording is, so you end up barely being able to hear the bassist because he disappears into the mix.

e.g. on Summertime from At the Blackhawk with crossfeed on it makes the bassist sound like he's playing some kind of double bass simulator. Each note decays to inaudibility before the next note. Without crossfeed, each note plays on top of the decaying sound of the previous note. 

I'm sure the rich textural experience is part of what makes these new Chord DACs so satisfying. So throwing away most of the double-bass sound is the wrong thing to do. Imaging be damned.

So, crossfeed makes the bass playing on this track sound staccato. Obviously jazz double bass tends to sound staccato, but robbing the double bass of its quality of being an acoustic instrument, making it sound synthesised, is stealing the life from the recording.


----------



## Rob Watts

lovethatsound said:


> I'm got to admit I'm a bit surprised about the lack of posts on here about one very big major achievement of the Dave,Rob,Digital cables,the fact they all sound the same,no matter what make they are,no matter how much they cost.this has got to be a real big thing,surely a massive market game changer.So come on Rob,how have you done it,and can it be done with analogue cables as well?


 
 Actually, that's easy to say how Dave is source insensitive - just make your DAC have bit perfect data, and make the DAC insensitive to all source jitter, and all input noise from DC to GHz then you are done. Easy to say, but it actually took many years to do (and I would still like to close the small gap from optical to the slightly better sounding USB input).
  
 But the really fascinating thing I found with Dave is just how sensitive the brain is to small signal accuracy, in terms of how accurate small signals need to be to give convincing depth. By needing at least 350 dB noise shapers, this gives a number to the accuracy that is needed - and in short you can say the small signal linearity has to be completely perfect, otherwise depth gets degraded. And no analogue component can ever be perfect in small signal terms as any oxides will make the resistance slightly bigger for small signals. But we can make digital components perfect - at least as good as 350 dB - so the answer is to keep as much as possible in the digital domain. Hence why with Dave, no pre-amp sounds better than an extra pre-amp - and why the power amp project is so interesting, because it promises to eliminate the sound of a power amp too.
  
 Rob


----------



## JaZZ

jawed said:


> As to crossfeed, it usually changes the relative strength of the bass in the mix. Often the bass ends up sounding louder (especially with pop/rock).
> 
> Some early stereo jazz sounds broken with crossfeed. My theory is that this is due to an anti-phase bass response in the opposite channel from where the double-bassist is playing, for example. That's how the recording is, so you end up barely being able to hear the bassist because he disappears into the mix.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think your explanation is spot on. There must be some phase cancellation going on. It's absolutely possible to make the bass disappear if it has opposite phase in both channels. But that would be a bad recording by today's standards (and virtually unlistenable to my ears). So please let's not make this a killer criterion for a usable, actually mandatory feature for audiophile demands, as I see it! Fortunately it is disengageable in cases like the ones above.
  
 I don't listen to old Jazz, so never encountered such a phenomenon.


----------



## Sonic77

Hopefully, higher powered amps will be included, as I have Magnepan 3.7i speakers and prefer lots of power to drive them.


----------



## Beolab

*Great news! *

I dont know what to say, but all of a sudden, the DAVE does not feel so stressed any more on high listening levels like vol. 0 to -5 , it was just certain albums / Tracks i discovered with a lot of loudness and low Dynamic Range that causing this phenomena. 

So im sorry if i miss led all of you, but the Dave can in fact drive the Abyss very well. 

I played som tricky high bass / Dynamic classical tracks at vol -1 and i just sat and waith for the clipping, tick-tack, tick-tack, 
but nothing happened! No clipping. 

Try the following tracks on your DAVEś or other Amps and see if they can handle it on higher volumes without any clipping: 

1. Ultra high Dynamic Range: 
TIDAL - Grieg: Peer Gynt, Op.23 - Incidental Music - No.8. In the hall of the Mountain King http://tidal.com/track/4542112

2. Great vocal and sledgehammer bass song: 
Josefine Cronholm : Shadow 
http://tidal.com/track/2614487

3. minimal techno track that can make a PA speaker break into peaces  

"Beat Beat Bad (Marco Asoleda Remix)" of Dolby D, Mickael Davis TIDAL: http://tidal.com/track/5309966

The DAVE did a very nice jobb in fact, and vol -1 is pretty darn high vol. 

Nevertheless the thinness in the voices / instruments are still apparent, so the Headtrip stays as the king of the amp-throne in my house.


And a message to @Christer : 
If you don't understand what im writhing, i can translate it to you in any languish you want: Swedish to Swahili its no problem  

The rest of the pack seems to understand perfectly what im writhing


----------



## Christer

romaz said:


> I can understand what you're saying but given all that the DAVE does so well in such a revolutionary way, maybe your criticism is a bit harsh.  Regardless of what Rob used in his testing process, I have listened to several TOTL headphones now with the DAVE including the HE-1000, HD800, LCD-4, Abyss, Dharma and Noble Kaiser 10 IEMs and I have never heard these phones sound better.  In fact, I have never had a better headphone experience period.  The Abyss (and HE-6) are anomalies in the headphone world as they are really more ear speakers then they are typical headphones.  These units actually thrive when connected to speaker amps.  Beolab's Wells Audio Headtrip was specifically designed for the Abyss and puts out 50 watts at 8 ohms and 25 watts at 32 ohms, overkill for just about any other headphone except the Abyss and HE-6 and so to expect Rob to accommodate these 2 specific low volume headphones, as special as they are, is perhaps too much to ask, especially as it would probably drive the price of the DAVE higher and impact the size and heat output of the DAVE.  Those of us who don't have an Abyss or HE-6 would be complaining.
> 
> Lastly, I think few grasp the significance of his new amps and how truly revolutionary this is.  We all know about the number of TAPs and the noise shapers, etc. but one of the reasons my headphone experience exceeds my 2-channel experience with the DAVE is because my headphones directly tap the signal output of the DAVE.  With headphones, I am able to completely benefit from the full bandwidth of the DAVE and its ultra-low noise floor without the limitations of an outboard amp.  To be able to now extend this benefit to 2-channel will be groundbreaking and I expect to be there to audition just how good this will sound when it becomes available.  Again, I am new to Chord and have been critical of other Chord products including the Hugo but it is just amazing what kind of innovation is going on with this company now.


 

 I guess you're right.I may have been a bit harsh in my purely speculative criticism in that post.
 But  I was arguing from the perspective of music lovers  and consumers with limited funds like myself.  Like I said during the audition with the HE1000, I did I experienced no  drive problems at all.
 But it seemed from Rob's response that he  was very  irritated by other things I have posted too.
 To bad if so, I post what I post because I truly care about ultimate SQ as I hear it compared to live acoustic music, and for  no other reasons.
 I don't intend to misinterpret or twist things as he accused me of. Nor do I intend to offend anyone for the sake of offending. I am not nasty by nature. I am seeking answers to questions I have,and that are important to me, obviously too bluntly,nothing else.
 Hugo has been my beloved travel companion for 2 years now. But I have had and still  have recurring RF  problems with it and  I have also  mentioned those problems maybe too often?
  
  
 The combo HE1000 and DAVE sounded sublime on most material except badly close and multimic'd recordings like Sony's recent The Marriage of Figaro which was an example where hi res in this case 24/192 played back via a very transparent chain can actually sound worse than the same played back at lower resolution and a more forgiving system.But with DAVE and to a similar but  maybe not quite the same degree with Hugo, there is nowhere for bad multimiking to hide.
 I am also very interested to know  why he  seems to  prefer 16/44.1 over higher bit  and sampling rates  But it seems he won't respond to any such questions from me.
 My knowledge of digital theory is very limited .But I am always willing and interested to learn new facts.To me it sounds like  a  much better option to try to capture as much as possible of  the original not bandwidth limited  analogue signal both in the frequency and temporal domains, in the first place by recording in high res instead of trying to repair  and fill in the missing gaps in time afterwards and then upsample to 32/348 or 32/768?
 To the best of my knowledge that is how basically every classical music company on the market think too..
 I can clearly  hear that transparency/resolution via my Hugo is  on a higher level than for example my conventional chip off the shelf Benchmark DAC2HGC  DAC.
 And the main reason seems to be in the number of taps.But why  recreate only a  bandwidth limited signal ? Why not the full Monty?
 Questions questions....


----------



## Christer

beolab said:


> *Great news! *
> 
> I dont know what to say, but all of a sudden, the DAVE does not feel so stressed any more on high listening levels like vol. 0 to -5 , it was just certain albums / Tracks i discovered with a lot of loudness and low Dynamic Range that causing this phenomena.
> 
> ...


 

 Hakuna matata!
 Jag hade lite problem att förstå din föregående post.Annars allt väl.
 Vad och var säljer du HI FI? Beolab?


----------



## m0nster

@Christer I find this post by Rob Watts a pretty interesting take on the problems with DSD, though I certainly did not nearly fully understand it:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/702787/chord-hugo/2475


----------



## romaz

rob watts said:


> But the really fascinating thing I found with Dave is just how sensitive the brain is to small signal accuracy, in terms of how accurate small signals need to be to give convincing depth. By needing at least 350 dB noise shapers, this gives a number to the accuracy that is needed - and in short you can say the small signal linearity has to be completely perfect, otherwise depth gets degraded. And no analogue component can ever be perfect in small signal terms as any oxides will make the resistance slightly bigger for small signals. But we can make digital components perfect - at least as good as 350 dB - so the answer is to keep as much as possible in the digital domain. Hence why with Dave, no pre-amp sounds better than an extra pre-amp - and why the power amp project is so interesting, because it promises to eliminate the sound of a power amp too.
> 
> Rob


 
 Rob, was 350 dB of performance some arbitrary ceiling that you reached but could not go beyond because of the limitations of current technology or was it some strategic target or threshold where you knew that by reaching it, you would gain perfect small signal linearity?  As you think about what could be improved with some future version of DAVE, what would it be?  Certainly, people will argue for having more gain available for more difficult to drive headphones but aside from that, is there any benefit in shooting for even better performing noise shapers beyond 350dB or increasing the number of TAPS or is the performance of the DAVE already so good that the limitation is not the DAC but the digital file or the transducer (headphone or speaker)?  I realize that the next big revolution could possibly occur with Davina but do you feel the DAVE is as good as it needs to be?


----------



## m0nster

romaz said:


> Rob, was 350 dB of performance some arbitrary ceiling that you reached but could not go beyond because of the limitations of current technology or was it some strategic target or threshold where you knew that by reaching it, you would gain perfect small signal linearity?  As you think about what could be improved with some future version of DAVE, what would it be?  Certainly, people will argue for having more gain available for more difficult to drive headphones but aside from that, is there any benefit in shooting for even better performing noise shapers beyond 350dB or increasing the number of TAPS or is the performance of the DAVE already so good that the limitation is not the DAC but the digital file or the transducer (headphone or speaker)?  I realize that the next big revolution could possibly occur with Davina but do you feel the DAVE is as good as it needs to be?



Wasn't it said somewhere that about a million taps would be close enough to the required infinity of taps to perfectly recreate the signal?


----------



## romaz

m0nster said:


> Wasn't it said somewhere that about a million taps would be close enough to the required infinity of taps to perfectly recreate the signal?


 
 Hmmm.  So is a million taps possible if the DAVE was housed in a larger chassis?


----------



## GoSUV

Rob,
  
 The 20W mono amp idea does sound very intriguing to me, as where in my neck of the woods, space is at a premium and if it is only as large as the Hugo, I'd be very interested and will hold off on my search for some power amps in the near future. Does the amp work with analog line inputs or will it only work with the digital output from DAVE? Thanks in advance.


----------



## romaz

christer said:


> I guess you're right.I may have been a bit harsh in my purely speculative criticism in that post.
> But  I was arguing from the perspective of music lovers  and consumers with limited funds like myself.  Like I said during the audition with the HE1000, I did I experienced no  drive problems at all.
> But it seemed from Rob's response that he  was very  irritated by other things I have posted too.
> To bad if so, I post what I post because I truly care about ultimate SQ as I hear it compared to live acoustic music, and for  no other reasons.
> ...


 
 There's nothing wrong with criticizing a product but it becomes personal when you go after the creator of that product.  To suggest, as you have, that Rob has been either careless or incompetent in his development and testing of the DAVE can really only be interpreted one way.  This is, after all, a forum of gentleman and a certain level of respect is expected.  Look at any other DAC forum on head-fi or elsewhere and you are not likely to find one where the DAC's creator is as invested and gracious as Rob has been.  I think we each tune in everyday for Rob's pearls of wisdom. 
  
 As for representing music lovers and consumers with limited funds, think about what you are saying.  What if you spent years designing and building your perfect house and you've poured your sweat and your soul into the project and then you decide to sell it for what you consider is fair market value.  Then some propsective buyer comes along and _*demands *_that you include the furniture and your personal automobile in the deal because he has limited funds.  First, the fact that he has limited funds is the customer's problem and not the seller's.  Second, he should be in no position to demand anything.  If he doesn't like the price, he should go elsewhere and see if he can find something just as good for less.  Considering the DAVE competes with DACs 10x its price, good luck finding something just as good for less.
  
 Lastly, as you acknowledge that your understanding of digital theory is limited, you should be that much more careful with your demands and accept that some of Rob's design choices were perhaps made for good reason.  And as far as I am aware, Rob is not against hi-res, at least not against native hi-res PCM.  He just believes DSD as a format is flawed and not as good as PCM and he has explained very well his reasons for this.  Regardless of his beliefs, and as you have experienced for yourself, the DAVE is capable of superb DSD playback up to DSD512 through DoP.  As you wonder what other statements you might have made that could be interpreted the wrong way, just review your response to him when he indicated Davina would be capable of 16, 24 and 32 bit recordings and sampling rates from 44 to 768 kHz.  You seemed upset that Davina will capable of Redbook even though he indicated it would be capable of much more, up to 32/768.  Most people have no problems knowing that their USB 3.0 cable is capable of USB 1.0 transfers even if they never use it.  It's called backward compatibility.  I agree with you that classical music, perhaps more than any other genre, benefits from high sampling and dynamic range but there are other genres that don't and maybe never will and so Redbook is all that they aspire to. Would you buy an ACDC SACD?  Even diehard ACDC fans probably wouldn't.


----------



## Kamil21

*Review Alert!*

Chord Dave review in Polish:

http://www.highfidelity.pl/@main-2689&lang=


----------



## analogmusic

there are quite a few disrespectful posts here and I cringe when I read them
  
 We are lucky that Rob Watts is here to answer our questions. He is a very talented digital engineer and there is noone in the world quite like him. So please be respectful in your tone when asking questions 
  
 Let us not make him regret to be on this forum and let's all keep it civilized and mature.


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> The power amp prototype has been stuck on my desk waiting for me to test it for a year now. So my priorities this year is the amp and Davina.
> 
> Combining Dave with the amp using the digital outputs, I am eagerly anticipating, as I expect a huge increase in transparency - in short, it will eliminate the sound of a power amp, you will be left with the equivalence of just the sound of Dave driving loudspeakers directly.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Rob, could you imagine to design a comparable amp (a variant, so to speak) for driving electrostatic headphones? I would buy one (if affordable).


----------



## m0nster

romaz said:


> Hmmm.  So is a million taps possible if the DAVE was housed in a larger chassis?




I am hoping that Rob will chime in whenever he finds the time. I don't know what has have to change that 1 million taps would be possible. And I have no idea what other things could be upgraded in the future on DAVE, it's an interesting question though!


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> *Great news! *
> 
> I dont know what to say, but all of a sudden, the DAVE does not feel so stressed any more on high listening levels like vol. 0 to -5 , it was just certain albums / Tracks i discovered with a lot of loudness and low Dynamic Range that causing this phenomena.
> 
> ...


 
 The impedance of the Abyss is 46 ohms, so you would need to get to +5dB before Dave starts to clip. That would relate to only 150 mA at 6.8 v, so no where near the 0.5A current limit.
  
 Rob


----------



## Christer

m0nster said:


> @Christer I find this post by Rob Watts a pretty interesting take on the problems with DSD, though I certainly did not nearly fully understand it:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/702787/chord-hugo/2475


 

 Thanks for the link, although I was actually aware of these things. I  have both been to  DXD sessions with 2L in Norway and had similar discussions with Morten Lindberg who basically says  the same as Rob I believe, ie  that  DSD can sound very good but PCM is even  better.
 The more I hear well recorded DXD the more I tend to agree.
 And as Rob Watts says DSD 64 for SACD was a compromise to fit things on disc.
 But from the DSD 128 I have heard it seems to add a bit more air and realism than DSD 64.
 Although DSD when balanced at sessions in the analogue domain as Jared Sacks has been doing for some years can sound very impressive too, in spite of its theoretical limitations.
 Channel Classics recent Mahler 9 is for example among Stereophile's latest list of R2D4.
 But so is one of my absolute favorites recordings  of all time, Sheffield Labs direct cut LP of Prokofiev's mighty
  Romeo and Juliet.Some SACDs where things have been stacked in edit and DSD noise trickles down into the  audible range have even less resolution than rbcd in the  highest treble range.
 But in most cases DSD 64 sounds clearly  better than rbcd, but not better than DXD  or even recent well made 24/96,imho.
 Some hardcore DSD believers say that DSD 256 or even 512 is the best.
 I haven't heard those natively yet so I have no opinion .
 But I remember asking Morten why he did not use DSD 128 with his then DAD AX24 at some sessions I was covering as a photographer for him.
 He said DXD was still closer to the live sound we heard in the church.
 But for those who prefer the slightly less resolved  a bit "softer and sweeter and beautiful" sound of DSD he  like several others also releases his albums as DSD .


----------



## Christer

romaz said:


> There's nothing wrong with criticizing a product but it becomes personal when you go after the creator of that product.  To suggest, as you have, that Rob has been either careless or incompetent in his development and testing of the DAVE can really only be interpreted one way.  This is, after all, a forum of gentleman and a certain level of respect is expected.  Look at any other DAC forum on head-fi or elsewhere and you are not likely to find one where the DAC's creator is as invested and gracious as Rob has been.  I think we each tune in everyday for Rob's pearls of wisdom.
> 
> As for representing music lovers and consumers with limited funds, think about what you are saying.  What if you spent years designing and building your perfect house and you've poured your sweat and your soul into the project and then you decide to sell it for what you consider is fair market value.  Then some propsective buyer comes along and _*demands *_that you include the furniture and your personal automobile in the deal because he has limited funds.  First, the fact that he has limited funds is the customer's problem and not the seller's.  Second, he should be in no position to demand anything.  If he doesn't like the price, he should go elsewhere and see if he can find something just as good for less.  Considering the DAVE competes with DACs 10x its price, good luck finding something just as good for less.
> 
> Lastly, as you acknowledge that your understanding of digital theory is limited, you should be that much more careful with your demands and accept that some of Rob's design choices were perhaps made for good reason.  And as far as I am aware, Rob is not against hi-res, at least not against native hi-res PCM.  He just believes DSD as a format is flawed and not as good as PCM and he has explained very well his reasons for this.  Regardless of his beliefs, and as you have experienced for yourself, the DAVE is capable of superb DSD playback up to DSD512 through DoP.  As you wonder what other statements you might have made that could be interpreted the wrong way, just review your response to him when he indicated Davina would be capable of 16, 24 and 32 bit recordings and sampling rates from 44 to 768 kHz.  You seemed upset that Davina will capable of Redbook even though he indicated it would be capable of much more, up to 32/768.  Most people have no problems knowing that their USB 3.0 cable is capable of USB 1.0 transfers even if they never use it.  It's called backward compatibility.  I agree with you that classical music, perhaps more than any other genre, benefits from high sampling and dynamic range but there are other genres that don't and maybe never will and so Redbook is all that they aspire to. Would you buy an ACDC SACD?  Even diehard ACDC fans probably wouldn't.


 

 Thanks for your parable and enlightened polite  way of pointing out my errors and rudeness.
 Mea Culpa.
 I will try to behave in a more adult  and civilized and  gentlemanly way in the future.
 Then again a friend of mine recently told me when  we were entering a washroom for men. Chris it actually says  gentlemen on the door but don't let that stop you!


----------



## Rob Watts

Hmm, lots of questions today!
  
 Firstly, I have not said that 44.1/16 bit is better than HD PCM (its easily better than DSD IMHO - and this is an important requirement - on my DAC's). Probably the best recordings I have is 192/24 - and generally, all things being equal, higher SR is preferable - but not by much. In principle - and note I mean in an ideal world - 44.1/16 is capable of very much better performance than we currently get - with a large enough tap length, you can recover the timing perfectly, assuming the ADC has zero (and I do mean zero) aliasing which currently the pro ADC's do not have - its as bad as -6dB!. Moreover, properly dithered 16 bit is capable of perfectly resolving an infinitely small signal - if you take an infinite period of time to do the FFT or correlation. So the format is capable of, again in principle, of perfectly reproducing the original timing information and perfectly capable of accurately reproducing very small signals.
  
 But "you know nothing Jon Snow" is my favourite quote,and until you do carefully structured and rigorous listening tests, this quote applies. One of the interesting things about the Davina project is being able to decimate 705.6 k to 44.1 without any aliasing at all. Couple that with a long tap length WTA filter on the DAC, then I can actually hear the losses involved and be able to actively minimise them. The next question is the effect of bit depth, and how to treat truncation without degrading sound-stage depth, and this will also be a very interesting test. Now its very easy to do it for a 16FS signal (as in Dave), you simply use a 350dB noise shaper - but this is not an option at 44.1
  
 On to the noise shaper - the 350 dB limit is technology limited (and its a very complex story), given that I am using 20 elements on the pulse array. I could detect a change going from -330 to -350, but frankly it was small. Any more depth to wring out? Perhaps. But by far the biggest loss is on the analogue power amplifier - the digital power amp will solve it (I know as the early prototype had amazing depth reproduction). Then there is the issue of the ADC itself, and again we have Davina coming to the rescue, as I have already designed the ADC noise shaper and this exceeds 350 dB.
  
 I mentioned tap length, and yes I suspect that longer tap lengths will give better sound. But by how much? Frankly I do not know, and its possible its not much. I have mentioned 1M taps before, as this gets us to a sinc function with an accuracy of better than 16 bits - this then guarantees time domain performance exceeding 16 bits accuracy for a 16FS output signal. Unfortunately, the FPGA's capable of doing this are insanely expensive.... And I shudder at the design time needed to write close to 1,000,000 lines of code and verify the design, let alone getting timing closure on the FPGA....
  
 Electrostatic direct drive from a single stage pulse array DAC? Funny, John and I were talking about it today. I think he thought I could design one in an afternoon....
  
 And talking of Jon Snow - season 6 Game of Thrones - not long to wait now.... Much less time to wait than designing an electrostatic DAC/amp, that's for sure.
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> The impedance of the Abyss is 46 ohms, so you would need to get to +5dB before Dave starts to clip. That would relate to only 150 mA at 6.8 v, so no where near the 0.5A current limit.
> 
> Rob




 46 Ohms / 85 db in sensitivity . 
I do not want to test where it clips because it can heart the diphragm in the headphones if the amp are clipping, and i find it more stressed if i go higher, but vol. - 1 is concert SPL rates almost with great control, it is just that it sounds very thin in the voices / instruments presentation, but with realy extended detailed bass when i go direct from the DAVE. 

It is pretty remarkable how much power it can pump out / 0,5 Amps sounds like the double if you compare it to other amps that maxes out much erlier and sound harsh and stressed, with like 4-6 watts @ 46 ohms that is pretty remarkable! 



*So to all members; the DAVE can drive the Abyss actually very well to high levels no question about it ! *

If you want a meatier more hair chested sound with a slight less transparancy you have to buy a reference high powered Amp like the Headtrip or if you are in favor of tubeamps: Viva Egoista or the WooAudio 234 is my recommendation .


----------



## mtoc

rob watts said:


> 34 extra cores


 
  
 Hello, what does the extra cores mean?


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> Electrostatic direct drive from a single stage pulse array DAC? Funny, John and I were talking about it today. I think he thought I could design one in an afternoon....


 
  
 Yes, please do! Let's say tomorrow afternoon? But I don't want to rush you... Next Monday is o.k., too.
  
 Thank you, Rob!


----------



## Rob Watts

mtoc said:


> Hello, what does the extra cores mean?


 
  
 A core is a DSP core - it is a FPGA dedicated module that can do multiple adds, accumulation and multiply amongst other features in one module. Sometimes I create my own cores out of FPGA fabric, once I have run out of dedicated FPGA hardware DSP cores. I use cores as the building blocks for large WTA filters. Dave's FPGA has 132 hardware DSP cores, but I needed 166, so I created the missing 34 cores out of FPGA fabric (that means gates and flip-flops on the FPGA).
  
 Rob


----------



## JaZZ

Rob, I just hope my previous post didn't come across as respectless – my sense of humor may not quite match with others'.
  
 In any event I have already expressed my respect for you and your work. The Hugo was a milestone, and DAVE is a masterpiece in my book. Now if I could enjoy this revolutionary sound quality also with my electrostats! It's not that I generally attribute higher sound quality or realism to them, but it would be great to have equal footing for them.


----------



## Rob Watts

jazz said:


> Rob, I just hope my previous post didn't come across as respectless – my sense of humor may not quite match with others'.
> 
> In any event I have already expressed my respect for you and your work. The Hugo was a milestone, and DAVE is a masterpiece in my book. Now if I could enjoy this revolutionary sound quality also with my electrostats! It's not that I generally attribute higher sound quality or realism to them, but it would be great to have equal footing for them.


 
 Actually I was thinking Tuesday, would that help?
  
 It would be interesting, I guess the biggest headache would be scoping the project out (how much voltage, how much current... plus any other issues). Then making it universal, so lots of things to think about. But being short of interesting things to do I am not short of, so I guess you will have to wait.... till maybe Tuesday 7 Jan 2020.
  
 Rob


----------



## m0nster

Has anyone of you tried the MrSpeakers Ether or Ether C on the DAVE? I would be interested to hear if they pair well?


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Rob, I just hope my previous post didn't come across as respectless – my sense of humor may not quite match with others'.
> ...


 
  
 Oohh!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Well, you're the boss. – Sadly my upper limit will be dropped to 11.35 kHz till then.


----------



## rgs9200m

I just have the Hugo TT so maybe this isn't the place to post it, but how does it magically get rid of the shrillness of redbook digital without muddying up the bass (especially the upper bass) that can make things kind of nauseating?
 In my experience with CD players from Playback Designs (MPS5) and Burmester, they did address the shrillness and fatigue, but always added some terrible softness.
 Curiously, SACD solves this problem most of the time and that's why I love it still. But the Chord way is the best I've heard in keeping impact and transparency without losing focus on regular-resolution non-SACD. And it works on even old digital recordings of popular music.


----------



## Mojo ideas

rob watts said:


> Hmm, lots of questions today!
> 
> Firstly, I have not said that 44.1/16 bit is better than HD PCM (its easily better than DSD IMHO - and this is an important requirement - on my DAC's). Probably the best recordings I have is 192/24 - and generally, all things being equal, higher SR is preferable - but not by much. In principle - and note I mean in an ideal world - 44.1/16 is capable of very much better performance than we currently get - with a large enough tap length, you can recover the timing perfectly, assuming the ADC has zero (and I do mean zero) aliasing which currently the pro ADC's do not have - its as bad as -6dB!. Moreover, properly dithered 16 bit is capable of perfectly resolving an infinitely small signal - if you take an infinite period of time to do the FFT or correlation. So the format is capable of, again in principle, of perfectly reproducing the original timing information and perfectly capable of accurately reproducing very small signals.
> 
> ...


 You could design it in an afternoon but you'll have to spend six months writing and rewriting code to get it right though Rob.


----------



## romaz

jazz said:


> Sadly my upper limit will be dropped to 11.35 kHz till then.


 
  
 Slightly off topic but I presume you're joking about your upper limit of hearing although if you're a musician or you listen to your music very loud, maybe you're not.
  
 As a physician in my real job, I can tell you that by age 25, most of us are unable to hear signals above 15 kHz.  I know I can't and it's just a fact of life.  As we age, this gets worse but depending on your line of work or routine behaviors (musician, military, construction, frequent IEM user), some of us lose our hearing more drastically.  Sounds discouraging but there's another way to look at it.
  
 The frequency range of hearing, from 20-20,000 Hz encompasses 10 octaves.  From 10,000-20,000 Hz represents only 1 octave.  If you can only hear down to 11 kHz, that represents 0.9 octaves of high frequency hearing loss.  If you are a "glass half full" type of person, that means you can hear 9.1 octaves out of the 10 that are available.  That means you still have 91% of your hearing.  Doesn't sound as bad, does it?
  
 If you guys are wondering what your upper limit of hearing is, here's a simple way to check:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNf9nzvnd1k


----------



## bmichels

jazz said:


> Yes, please do! Let's say tomorrow afternoon? But I don't want to rush you... Next Monday is o.k., too.
> 
> Thank you, Rob!


 
  
 Next monday will anyway be well before the BHSE that I just ordered will arrive (in 1 year ? )


----------



## JaZZ

romaz said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Sadly my upper limit will be dropped to 11.35 kHz till then.
> ...


 
  
 I've been a bass player in a band / in bands at younger ages, but my hearing loss is just from my age: 65. I recently tested it: I hear up to 13 kHz, which sounds even a bit louder than 12 kHz, but still quite low. I'm not complaining – but the guessed limit of 11.35 kHz in almost four years is not too unrealistic (although a bit pessimistic on purpose – to put some pressure on Rob).
  
 I agree that it's still a bandwidth enabling to enjoy music in high quality, and frankly I don't miss the now missing 4 kHz compared to the age of 25 or so. But I'm sure the quality of the equipment will play a less important role with shrinking hearing bandwidth.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> Slightly off topic but I presume you're joking about your upper limit of hearing although if you're a musician or you listen to your music very loud, maybe you're not.
> 
> As a physician in my real job, I can tell you that by age 25, most of us are unable to hear signals above 15 kHz.  I know I can't and it's just a fact of life.  As we age, this gets worse but depending on your line of work or routine behaviors (musician, military, construction, frequent IEM user), some of us lose our hearing more drastically.  Sounds discouraging but there's another way to look at it.
> 
> ...




I hear 20hz-18khz when i do the tests, and im 34 years old, and can hear a the high pitched frequency that is generated when a CRT TV start up on a different floor, and the half or full glass of water test 

I just play High End loudspeakers very load at my work


----------



## Sonic77

Take your time with digital amps, I'm happy with what I got, plus I can save some money, or buy some headphones.


----------



## analogmusic

One million lines of code? not sure how this works, but is this even possible by one single person? How would this work? Is some code a repetition?
  
 Anyway was listening to my Hugo in the car, and it really does the job musically, on some old INXS albums which I know very well, the music sounded punchy, fun, and vibrant.
  
 I can't think of anything that I could wish for, so maybe the DAVE is really enough for us musically !
  
 About the encoding side, once record companies get their DAVINAS for encoding from 768KHZ rate (or analog masters - apologies if this upsets anyone)  back to 44.1, I hope we can finally listen to music the way it was meant to be heard by artists.
  
 But honestly with Hugo (haven't heard DAVE), I think we are already pretty damn close.


----------



## m0nster

sonic77 said:


> Take your time with digital amps, I'm happy with what I got, plus I can save some money, or buy some headphones.




Haha, you wish that you'll save some money. I bet you'll find awesome headphones first. Or a new DAP. Or you get a second DAVE, because it's just that great


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Hmm, lots of questions today!
> 
> Firstly, I have not said that 44.1/16 bit is better than HD PCM (its easily better than DSD IMHO - and this is an important requirement - on my DAC's). Probably the best recordings I have is 192/24 - and generally, all things being equal, higher SR is preferable - but not by much. In principle - and note I mean in an ideal world - 44.1/16 is capable of very much better performance than we currently get - with a large enough tap length, you can recover the timing perfectly, assuming the ADC has zero (and I do mean zero) aliasing which currently the pro ADC's do not have - its as bad as -6dB!. Moreover, properly dithered 16 bit is capable of perfectly resolving an infinitely small signal - if you take an infinite period of time to do the FFT or correlation. So the format is capable of, again in principle, of perfectly reproducing the original timing information and perfectly capable of accurately reproducing very small signals.
> 
> ...




Rob you have to call in Rain Man like FaceBook / Intel / Google and NSA , they have hired people with autism, ( autistic savant) and writhing / read / tracking error codes like they where on fire.


----------



## rgs9200m

Most code these days is generated by the developer working with an IDE, an Integrated Development Environment where you click on the operations you want and it produces the actual low-level code. It's still very difficult and takes a great deal of skill, but it's not directly writing it. You need an understanding of the functionality of the higher level objects used as building blocks and how they interact. Complex Object Libraries are used for this. This is the basis of what is called Object Oriented Design, something that was introduced in the 1990s.
 So when you hear about umpteen lines of code, it's not like it was written by hand. The tools allow the skilled engineer or subject-matter-expert or analyst to create things without getting into the gory minute programming details.


----------



## Sonic77

m0nster said:


> Haha, you wish that you'll save some money. I bet you'll find awesome headphones first. Or a new DAP. Or you get a second DAVE, because it's just that great


----------



## Rob Watts

Lines of code - actually this includes data for the coefficients so although it's copied by block I still have to copy each block by hand. No automated scripts used but it is a common format. The problems really start with verification, where one line is faulty its wrong. Fortunately I can test for that but fixing the errors takes ages. Then if I want to try different filters it's new coefficient set again... Biggest headache is timing closure when one has to redo the whole thing if timing is not met. Dave took 9 months and that's only 100,000. But then it was an issue of timing closure and top level filter design, which would not need to be done again.
Rob


----------



## analogmusic

nice to know that it is possible, hope the prices of FPGA become affordable enough so that the 1,000,000 tap DAC is feasible...


----------



## rgs9200m

Thanks for the insight into this process. If I was younger I'd consider a career in this. 'spent my career in telcom-systems code...


----------



## m0nster

Still wondering when someone will grow tired of his DAVE and sell it to me at a price I can afford 
I hate it that this product is so good that everyone wants to keep it


----------



## nepherte

rgs9200m said:


> Most code these days is generated by the developer working with an IDE, an Integrated Development Environment where you click on the operations you want and it produces the actual low-level code.



I really wish it were that easy  For non-functional behavior, sure your IDE can generate code. But you don't gain anything other than saving time. It's not like it's actually going to do things. Re-using libraries on the other hand will help you gain time and functionality.


----------



## rgs9200m

m0nster said:


> Still wondering when someone will grow tired of his DAVE and sell it to me at a price I can afford
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Just get yerself a Hugo TT and you will be happy. I'd also pair it with your favorite amp to tailor the sound to your liking, but this is controversial. The TT is darn amazing. I have not heard a DAVE, but the TT keeps me totally satisfied. Notice there are no used TTs for sale either.


----------



## lovethatsound

m0nster said:


> Still wondering when someone will grow tired of his DAVE and sell it to me at a price I can afford
> I hate it that this product is so good that everyone wants to keep it


Hi m8
I really don't think you're gonna see any second hand Daves for a very long time,if at all,the trouble being is that Dave is very addictive,and when you listen to any other Dac,well let's just say you know what you're missing.


----------



## m0nster

rgs9200m said:


> Just get yerself a Hugo TT and you will be happy. I'd also pair it with your favorite amp to tailor the sound to your liking, but this is controversial. The TT is darn amazing. I have not heard a DAVE, but the TT keeps me totally satisfied. Notice there are no used TTs for sale either.




It's just that Rob seems to be very proud of DAVE, sounds like it's his masterpiece so far. So I just can't get myself to settle for the product that's just not quite his masterpiece... Sounds silly, I know 

And I realize that you addicted people won't sell it, I wouldn't either. Hang on to it guys and enjoy music at a level hardly heard before except for live!


----------



## Rob Watts

Yesterday we did an event in Tokyo, and it went very well, the Japanese reviewing community are frankly astonished about Dave.
  
 And today we had confirmation of six reviewers placing personal orders for Dave....
  
 We are very humbled by this enthusiasm.
  
 Rob


----------



## m0nster

rob watts said:


> Yesterday we did an event in Tokyo, and it went very well, the Japanese reviewing community are frankly astonished about Dave.
> 
> And today we had confirmation of six reviewers placing personal orders for Dave....
> 
> ...




Congratulations! You guys deserve the success! Your new products really bring innovation to the table, not like you are making products that are exactly the same plus one button. I think that deserves a lot of respect in our "a new product ever 6 months" society!

Hoping for more reviews too  Can't wait to read!


----------



## U2nite

sonic77 said:


> Take your time with digital amps, I'm happy with what I got, plus I can save some money, or buy some headphones.


 
  
 Yeah I feel the same way. I can enjoy what i have now and save some money.
  
 Still, isn't it nice to know potentially great staff's coming our way and wonder if we can hear well enough to enjoy it and have the coins to afford it ?
  
 I ride a Harley for 20 years and Thank God that I used ear plugs every time I ride. That's one reason why I can still enjoy great sound quality and good music now.
  
 Rick


----------



## U2nite

rob watts said:


> Yesterday we did an event in Tokyo, and it went very well, the Japanese reviewing community are frankly astonished about Dave.
> 
> And today we had confirmation of six reviewers placing personal orders for Dave....
> 
> ...


 
  
 Congratulations. Indeed you guys deserve the success. You have created an instrument that almost brings live music to our homes.
  
 One that makes our music much more enjoyable.   
  
 Rick


----------



## Kakki

rob watts said:


> Yesterday we did an event in Tokyo, and it went very well, the Japanese reviewing community are frankly astonished about Dave.
> 
> And today we had confirmation of six reviewers placing personal orders for Dave....
> 
> ...


 
 Rob, I'm very curious how you felt the Dave sound in Tokyo... because in Japan we have 100v low voltage and have no grounding in the electricity socket.
 So I would like to know if that difference impacts Dave sound. Would appreciate your opinion.
  
 Also, in the event, did you simply connect your Dave to the wall socket? or used any filter kind of things to get better sound quality?


----------



## GabbaHey

Hi Rob, is it too soon to hazard a guess on the price range of your upcoming ADC Davina?


----------



## gnomen

m0nster said:


> It's just that Rob seems to be very proud of DAVE, sounds like it's his masterpiece so far. So I just can't get myself to settle for the product that's just not quite his masterpiece... Sounds silly, I know
> 
> And I realize that you addicted people won't sell it, I wouldn't either. Hang on to it guys and enjoy music at a level hardly heard before except for live!




I listened to both TT and Dave extensively before purchasing the TT. While I defer to Rob's more acute hearing, for me there was little or no difference on a wide range of material. YMMV

To me it seems the TT is the sweetspot in the range. What the Hugo would be with no size limitations and a chance for second thoughts. That made me quite settled with my choice (along with the sound of course). 

Is there a Dave in my future? Quite possibly but I would need to re-evaluate the whole chain: from source to room, to get a system for which Dave is the sweetspot.


----------



## bmichels

gnomen said:


> I listened to both TT and Dave extensively before purchasing the TT. While I defer to Rob's more acute hearing, for me there was little or no difference on a wide range of material. YMMV
> 
> To me it seems the TT is the sweetspot in the range. What the Hugo would be with no size limitations and a chance for second thoughts. That made me quite settled with my choice (along with the sound of course).
> 
> Is there a Dave in my future? Quite possibly but I would need to re-evaluate the whole chain: from source to room, to get a system for which Dave is the sweetspot.


 
  
 I have HUGO and still hesitating to go and buy DAVE.  I tested DAVE and could not hear a difference big enough with my HUGO, but it was not in perfect listening conditions...
  
 --> Did you hear a difference in SQ between the HUGO and the TT ?


----------



## Rob Watts

gabbahey said:


> Hi Rob, is it too soon to hazard a guess on the price range of your upcoming ADC Davina?


 
 Yes it is a bit too soon! I need to get the prototype working first. But its not a silly money project.
  
 Rob


----------



## rgs9200m

To my ears the difference between the TT is somehow huge. I can't put my finger on it, but the music just seems to fall out of the TT with ease and authority. And this just using the DAC portion with my external amp.
 (It is also major using the amp alone vs. the Hugo amp, but I still prefer my Rudistor amp with either.) I now have long experience with both the Hugo and the Hugo TT. I use USB input to the TT.


----------



## JaZZ

And Rob, can you give a hint to the price level of the upcoming digital amp?
  
 It's not that I need one – I'm perfectly satisfied with DAVE for driving dynamic headphones –, I'm just curious. Also in the context of an electrostatic variant, of course.


----------



## Rob Watts

jazz said:


> And Rob, can you give a hint to the price level of the upcoming digital amp?
> 
> It's not that I need one – I'm perfectly satisfied with DAVE for driving dynamic headphones –, I'm just curious. Also in the context of an electrostatic variant, of course.


 
 Again bit early, but the intention is more TT price than Dave.
  
 As to sound quality Hugo to Dave - I wish it was closer, then I would not need to drag a Dave with me everywhere on my carry on! He has clocked up 150,000 miles so far.
  
 Rob


----------



## lovethatsound

gnomen said:


> I listened to both TT and Dave extensively before purchasing the TT. While I defer to Rob's more acute hearing, for me there was little or no difference on a wide range of material. YMMV
> 
> To me it seems the TT is the sweetspot in the range. What the Hugo would be with no size limitations and a chance for second thoughts. That made me quite settled with my choice (along with the sound of course).
> 
> Is there a Dave in my future? Quite possibly but I would need to re-evaluate the whole chain: from source to room, to get a system for which Dave is the sweetspot.







bmichels said:


> I have HUGO and still hesitating to go and buy DAVE.  I tested DAVE and could not hear a difference big enough with my HUGO, but it was not in perfect listening conditions...
> 
> --> Did you hear a difference in SQ between the HUGO and the TT ?


A while ago i home demo the hugo tt and the QBD76 for 2 weeks,the hugo tt sounded abit better than my hugo,the QBD76 sounded much better than my Hugo or the hugo tt,I got the QBD76.
Now guys i don't know how you've listed to Dave,i do know that Dave takes alot of running in,but i can tell you this,Dave is in a totally different league to both of them,and i say this without any hesitation.


----------



## gnomen

bmichels said:


> I have HUGO and still hesitating to go and buy DAVE.  I tested DAVE and could not hear a difference big enough with my HUGO, but it was not in perfect listening conditions...
> 
> --> Did you hear a difference in SQ between the HUGO and the TT ?




Yes. A very clear difference: depth, smoothness, detail. I would have found it difficult to listen to the Hugo as a permanent choice unless a trade-off for portability was essential.

Must say I was listening to the Hugo via USB. From what others have said here, optical might be better. And there might be other steps to tame it. But the TT works right out of the box and seems quite immune to cables and input choices. 

I also think it depends on your choice of music. I listened to a wide range of material, from pop to jazz to classical, plugged and unplugged, soloists to massed voices and orchestra. For some of this the startling qualities of the Hugo over ride any pickiness, but in other cases I could not settle with it. No such problems with the TT - crested every challenge with ease.


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > And Rob, can you give a hint to the price level of the upcoming digital amp?
> ...


 
  
 Thank you, Sir!


----------



## JaZZ

rgs9200m said:


> To my ears the difference between the TT is somehow huge. I can't put my finger on it, but the music just seems to fall out of the TT with ease and authority. And this just using the DAC portion with my external amp.
> (It is also major using the amp alone vs. the Hugo amp, but I still prefer my Rudistor amp with either.) I now have long experience with both the Hugo and the Hugo TT. I use USB input to the TT.


 
  
 Hi rgs9200m
  
 Have you by chance auditioned the *RP5 cav*? That's the only RudiStor amp I've heard. If yes, does your *RP010B* sound any similar?


----------



## bmichels

rob watts said:


> Again bit early, but the intention is more TT price than Dave.
> 
> As to sound quality Hugo to Dave - I wish it was closer, then I would not need to drag a Dave with me everywhere on my carry on! He has clocked up 150,000 miles so far.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Rob,
  
 Is also the TT more immude to Source's jitter  (like the DAVE) ?


----------



## JaZZ

hi bmichels
  
 Don't hesitate, go for the Hugo TT! – It seems to be your destiny to prefer the second best (see HifiMan Edition X!).


----------



## Rob Watts

bmichels said:


> Rob,
> 
> Is also the TT more immude to Source's jitter  (like the DAVE) ?



It is the same usb circuit so should be similar. Rob


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> It is the same usb circuit so should be similar. Rob




Thats nice if its true..

But the optical / coax inputs are not Jitter / RF immune like DAVE is, from my impressions. 


Side note: 
Have to say, that my sound are too good so i find just a few tracks that i give permission to play on my rig, because they need to record the tracks better now! 

We have raised the bar allot! 

So MQA and Davidina are more than welcome.


----------



## wmns

I understand that on Dave there is a filter for PCM and one for DSD. When switching source material PCM/DSD during audition we had to switch filters manually. Is there a possibility to have the filter switch automatically according source material ?
By the way Dave sounded fabulous and I ordered it.


----------



## rgs9200m

jazz said:


> Hi rgs9200m
> 
> Have you by chance auditioned the *RP5 cav*? That's the only RudiStor amp I've heard. If yes, does your *RP010B* sound any similar?


 
 Well, the only Rudistor I've ever heard is my own. I've had it for 6 years now and I still treasure its natural musical insightful sound.


----------



## bmichels

beolab said:


> Thats nice if its true..
> 
> But the optical / coax inputs are not Jitter / RF immune like DAVE is, from my impressions.


 
  
 he meant  HUGO and TT have similar input, NOT the TT and DAVE


----------



## Beolab

bmichels said:


> he meant  HUGO and TT have similar input, NOT the TT and DAVE




Okay sorry, i read your question like this;
" Is the TT USB input also immune like DAVE?"

And Rob answered; 
"It is the same circuit so it should be the same"

Thats why i taught he meant the same as DAVE.  ?


----------



## Sonic77

rob watts said:


> Again bit early, but the intention is more TT price than Dave.
> 
> As to sound quality Hugo to Dave - I wish it was closer, then I would not need to drag a Dave with me everywhere on my carry on! He has clocked up 150,000 miles so far.
> 
> Rob


 

 Good news on the pricing!
  
 If you cant hear a difference between Hugo and Dave (b Michaels) you are going to save a lot of money.


----------



## Frank I

m0nster said:


> Don't cry because of what you lost, smile because of what you heard instead!
> Thank you for your impressions, could you post a link to your review once you have finished it? Would love to read it, though I am pretty certain that it will make me cry until I can afford a DAVE :-D


 
 It will be in my signature when I complete it.


----------



## bmichels

sonic77 said:


> If you cant hear a difference between Hugo and Dave (b Michaels) you are going to save a lot of money.


----------



## Jawed

romaz said:


> If you guys are wondering what your upper limit of hearing is, here's a simple way to check:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNf9nzvnd1k



Sadly that video is quite misleading. According to that video I can hear to 18KHz.

I think this video is more likely to be true:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxcbppCX6Rk

There's even a note that the highest frequencies are spoilt by youtube compression. 

I get to 15KHz. I'm 50 for what it's worth.


----------



## Jawed

lovethatsound said:


> A while ago i home demo the hugo tt and the QBD76 for 2 weeks,the hugo tt sounded abit better than my hugo,the QBD76 sounded much better than my Hugo or the hugo tt,I got the QBD76.
> Now guys i don't know how you've listed to Dave,i do know that Dave takes alot of running in,but i can tell you this,Dave is in a totally different league to both of them,and i say this without any hesitation.



Hugo TT apparently has a 4 element pulse array modulator. DAVE has 20 elements and QBD76 has 16.

It seems that the element count is a substantial contributor to the quality of the DAC - the tap count isn't the whole story. 

So what is the mechanism here that makes more elements better?


----------



## rgs9200m

What is a pulse array modulator?


----------



## Beolab

jawed said:


> Hugo TT apparently has a 4 element pulse array modulator. DAVE has 20 elements and QBD76 has 16.
> 
> It seems that the element count is a substantial contributor to the quality of the DAC - the tap count isn't the whole story.
> 
> So what is the mechanism here that makes more elements better?




I have also read it many times, but i haven't laid so much weight on it, because all hype and focus have bin on Taps and on all other record values.. 
That finding could be one of the key factors why the QBD76 and DAVE sounding more rich than the Hugo.


----------



## highendhifi

Mine is due next week....
I am just a little bit excited. I almost don't want to be because it sets up expectations that may be fantastical....


----------



## esimms86

Just placed an order for Dave. I anticipate receiving it in 2-3 weeks. After that comes time for burn in(not that I won't be listening to it right out of the box). I figure that this is my end game DAC. The only question is whether I'll settle on Dave>HE1000 or Dave>Blue Hawaii>SR009. I know, serious 1st world problem. A year ago I was looking at an MSB Analog DAC for the same money. Nowadays that amount of money would just get me a few steps up from the entry level of MSB's product line. No knock against MSB as they make some fine pieces of kit but I'm really glad I waited.


----------



## Rob Watts

jawed said:


> Hugo TT apparently has a 4 element pulse array modulator. DAVE has 20 elements and QBD76 has 16.
> 
> It seems that the element count is a substantial contributor to the quality of the DAC - the tap count isn't the whole story.
> 
> So what is the mechanism here that makes more elements better?


 
  


rgs9200m said:


> What is a pulse array modulator?


 
 The pulse array modulator is the digital circuit that converts the data output (6 bits) from the noise shaper into an array of PWM signals. The output from the pulse array modulator is then fed back into the noise shaper to provide the feedback for the noise shaper. The element outputs then go to the OP flip flops, which via resistors give the analogue output that is then fed to the output stage. A flip flop and resistor is hence one element (1e). We need to use a flip flop so that the jitter from the FPGA is eliminated. 
  
 I have not talked about pulse array because its very complex - taps are a little easier to understand.
  
 There are many benefits of pulse array over all other conversion strategies. The first is that it is a *constant switching scheme*, completely independent of the digital data - the benefit of this is the constant switching energy is always the same, so the music signal has no switching related errors - so the switching errors end up being a DC value, which the digital DC servo nulls out. This is one reason why pulse array is capable of zero noise floor modulation. The second reason is that the array is fundamentally jitter immune as rising edges are cancelled by falling edges within the array. The third advantage is that the elements are all the same value, and each element has, for audio signals exactly the same signal, so this means that the tolerance of the resistors only creates a completely fixed and unvarying noise signal, with zero distortion - another reason why pulse array can have zero distortion and zero noise floor modulation. The fourth benefit is that it is a voltage switching scheme, not a current or resistor switching - which means it is several orders of magnitude faster than all other schemes, so that is why I can run the noise shaper at 104 MHz - and this high rate means that with Dave I can have the digital performance of the noise shaper exceed 350 dB as I have talked about before. The 5th benefit is that current that is going into the virtual ground node of the OP stage (assuming perfect operation and that's another story) is *completely* audio signal unrelated - it can only add +1 or -1 level of current into the node - another reason for zero distortion of pulse array. All other schemes actually switch signal related currents, and this creates distortion, and as the switching is SR related it also creates anharmonic distortion too. The 6th benefit is that each element is completely independent to one another, as they are discrete, and individually decoupled. On a chip they interfere with one another, causing small signal distortion. Thus having them separate means that small signals have zero distortion, so you get much better detail resolution and depth perception - in measurements, Dave perfectly reproduces small signals with zero amplitude errors or distortion. The 7th benefit is the RF levels is very low, as the net switching noise itself is low, and it can be decoupled effectively. This means the input to the op stage is always linear, so you get zero noise floor modulation.
  
 I told you it was complicated, that's why I don't talk about it. I have also probably forgotten something important too, but it gives you an idea as to what is going on. It may also give you some appreciation of the problems involved in creating a DAC that has zero noise floor modulation, and almost zero distortion too (and I have not talked about the OP stage distortion problems, nor the reference circuitry - the power to the flip flops - either).
  
 The reason Dave is 20e not 16e, is that when you approach zero or 100% output, the switching activity stops, then you get distortion. With the QBD, an overhead was built in as its a fixed level DAC. With Dave I don't have that, as we want to drive the output to maximum, so the extra 4e gives the overhead to prevent distortion as the signal goes to clipping.
  
 4e is more complicated, as compromises are involved, and in that case it sounded better to maintain noise shaper resolution (maintaining soundstage) but compromising distortion slightly. That's why Mojo is at 0.00017% but Dave is 0.000015% THD. But Mojo is still comparable with the very best DAC's available in distortion performance. But its still a constant switching scheme, so like Dave the DAC has no measurable noise floor modulation, unlike any other non Chord DAC's. And this attribute is way more important than distortion when it comes to SQ.
  
 Rob


----------



## STR-1

Hi Rob,
After a good two-week loan experience I have now ordered a Dave for use initially as a headphone-only system - AK380/Dave/HE1000 most of the time but I also have HD800 and will shortly be getting a MacBook Pro. I am pleased by all the posts commenting on how unnecessary expensive interconnect cables will be with Dave but I am not sure if that includes mains cables and mains conditioners. Do you have any advice to offer on whether mains cables and conditioners can affect the sound quality of Dave? Thanks in advance


----------



## bmichels

esimms86 said:


> Just placed an order for Dave. ...The only question is whether I'll settle on Dave>HE1000 or Dave>Blue Hawaii>SR009


 
  
 That's a very good question.  
  
 Indeed, I have HE-X already and have also BHSE on order (looong wait), so I wonder:  IF I get a DAVE, will I still need a BHSE + SR009 ?


----------



## rgs9200m

Thanks once again Rob!


----------



## pompom

bmichels said:


> Rob, does this mean that when using the BLU with DAVE, this "BLU upgrade" won't make any SQ difference since all the up-sampling can be done in the DAVE anyway ?
> 
> In other way, if I have DAVE, can I already buy the "old" BLU without having later to upgrade to the "new" PCB ?


 
  
 This is a good question !   
  
 I owe a BLU and wonder if it will be useful to upgrade it (new PCB) if I get a DAVE also.   Rob ?


----------



## JaZZ

bmichels said:


> esimms86 said:
> 
> 
> > Just placed an order for Dave. ...The only question is whether I'll settle on Dave>HE1000 or Dave>Blue Hawaii>SR009
> ...


 
  
 Since I only have the HE1000 and no BHSE/SR-009, I can't really answer your question. After all I have a comparable planar and two electrostats among my top four headphones which get regular use.
  
 I still haven't heard the SR-009, but somehow don't really have the urge to audition it – my two electrostats sound so good with DAVE and Stax SRM-727 II. From an extensive comparison I know that I even prefer(red) them to the HE 90, although the latter seemed to have better detail (that was with the SRM-T1, though). The main advantage is from the angled drivers – which the SR-009 doesn't offer either.
  
 As impressive soundstage, resolution and detail from the electrostats are, the HE1000 driven by DAVE sounds more *realistic* and at least as detailed. In my experience part of the hyper resolution of electrostats is fake (caused by reflections on and the air acceleration provoked by the electrodes, as I see it). That's why when it comes to the reproduction of sonic colors, the subtle nuances of overtones, the direct-driven HE1000 is far superior in my book.
  
 Thursday night I was attending a classical concert – first row. When I closed my eyes it sounded like the HE1000 at home, plus larger soundstage. For me the HE1000 driven by DAVE – with a Silver Dragon cable and equalized! – is the ne plus ultra in terms of music reproduction through headphones to date.
  
 Now that doesn't answer your question, I know. But you have already ordered the BHSE and probably like the SR-009 idea anyway...


----------



## Rob Watts

The benefit of the Blu upsampler is that I now will have two powerful FPGA's to do the WTA processing function, not one with Dave.
  
 But a word of caution - will this result in better sound - I think it will, but until I do the listening tests I do not know, nor by how much. We will not release the upgrade unless it gives a worthwhile benefit.
  
 Rob


----------



## bmichels

jazz said:


> Now that doesn't answer your question, I know. But you have already ordered the BHSE and probably like the SR-009 idea anyway...


 
  
 You are right, I have been looking at this BHSE & SR009 since so many years that I MUST get one now that I can afford it. It is some sort of pilgrimage. I have no choice ....


----------



## Sonic77

bmichels said:


> You are right, I have been looking at this BHSE & SR009 since so many years that I MUST get one now that I can afford it. It is some sort of pilgrimage. I have no choice ....


 

 The Dave is also a pilgrimage


----------



## lovethatsound

rob watts said:


> The benefit of the Blu upsampler is that I now will have two powerful FPGA's to do the WTA processing function, not one with Dave.
> 
> But a word of caution - will this result in better sound - I think it will, but until I do the listening tests I do not know, nor by how much. We will not release the upgrade unless it gives a worthwhile benefit.
> 
> Rob


Tell me guys what other designer of a dac would come on here and tell you the brutal truth about what might happen with their equipment in the future,absolutely outstanding Rob/Chord 10 out of 10☺


----------



## rgs9200m

bmichels said:


> You are right, I have been looking at this BHSE & SR009 since so many years that I MUST get one now that I can afford it. It is some sort of pilgrimage. I have no choice ....


 
 Try the SR007 first.


----------



## bmichels

rgs9200m said:


> Try the SR007 first.


 
 Why do you suggest this ?
  
  I tried booth on the same BHSE during the last CanJam in London, and I definitively prefered the 009...


----------



## Beolab

It is great and i highly regard Rob for it, but it is good PR and Chord sell DACs like never before because of all hype in the diffrent HeadFi Chord threads, so it is also a Win-Win situation for everyone! 

The customer get brooke, but the in change one of the the best sounding products on the market today , and Chord get rich and healthy as a company, and can develop even more advanced products in the future. 

Win-win for everyone!


----------



## rgs9200m

bmichels said:


> Why do you suggest this ?
> 
> I tried booth on the same BHSE during the last CanJam in London, and I definitively prefered the 009...


 
 OK, if you heard them, that's different. I happen to prefer my SR007 from an overall perspective, that's all.
  
 (The SR007 is more focused and intimate and the images seem larger and fuller than the SR009, but the 009 is clearer with some more detail,
 but can be harder to take with shriller or hot recordings, and I like older popular music.)
  
 As a side note there is a definite synergy with my Hugo TT (and my Hugo before that) with my Grado PS1000e, which is somehow up with the best headphone sound I ever heard, FWIW.
 I'm thinking the Chord sound goes well with this Grado. I'd love for someone to try it with the Dave as a favor to Grado fans.
  
 If pressed and water-boarded and forced to choose, I'd say PS1000e > SR007 > SR009, but they all have their individual strengths and they all float my boat.


----------



## esimms86

rgs9200m said:


> OK, if you heard them, that's different. I happen to prefer my SR007 from an overall perspective, that's all.
> 
> (The SR007 is more focused and intimate and the images seem larger and fuller than the SR009, but the 009 is clearer with some more detail,
> but can be harder to take with shriller or hot recordings, and I like older popular music.)
> ...


 
  
  
 I'm not enamored of the Grado "company sound," though I've never heard the PS1000e. I had an SR007MkI and ended up selling it(to Jude) as I greatly preferred the SR009. I can't speak to the SR007Mk2 as I've never heard one. I bought the SR009 about a year ago so mine may (or may not) be a different build from the previous models. I have one of the few Justin built BH's, not a BHSE. It's based on the same circuit but has some parts that were no longer available, leading to the development of the BHSE. I also own a StefanArt modded HD800 and non-fazor LCD3. BTW, I had a Silver Dragon cable on the LCD3 but sold it(the cable) as I found it lovely sounding but microphonic. The HD800 is my go to headphone when listening on the road(i.e., when away from home but not actually in transit) through a Geek Out V2 or, more recently, Chord Mojo.In truth, the current generation of electronics is an embarrassment of riches such that I could easily live the rest of my life with a Chord Mojo and a pair of Etymotics through a MacBook Pro or iPhone. That's a combo well within the reach of most budgets in this crazy headphone audiophile world and the sound is to die for. Dave, of course, is a quantum leap better at the very least, and people buy it if they can afford to because it's there and because we only live once.
  
 Romaz's DHC cable is very tempting but I'm hoping that once I hear my stock HE1000 through Dave I will be cured of upgradeitis forever(yes, I can hear you now). Then there's also the notion of spending 2800 dollars on a headphone that already costs 3000 dollars in an effort to squeeze out that last few per cent of sound improvement.


----------



## hifuguy

This is an incredible thread, with all of you guys + Rob. I just got a Mojo a couple of weeks ago and I can't believe how good it is. When you realize that it doesn't need expensive USB cables, power cords, high-end music player SW, sounds amazing as a portable rig and at-home (speakers), you soon realize that a Mojo is practically free (and perfectly named)! My only worry is that a Mojo is like a gateway drug to more Rob magic. Reading this thread doesn't help, but I can't stop myself!


----------



## Jawed

Thanks, very interesting.


rob watts said:


> The pulse array modulator is the digital circuit that converts the data output (6 bits) from the noise shaper into an array of PWM signals. The output from the pulse array modulator is then fed back into the noise shaper to provide the feedback for the noise shaper. The element outputs then go to the OP flip flops, which via resistors give the analogue output that is then fed to the output stage. A flip flop and resistor is hence one element (1e). We need to use a flip flop so that the jitter from the FPGA is eliminated.



So this seems to imply that pulses have 64 different widths and that the elements take it in turn to add a unit-pulse to the sequence of existing unit-pulses that all join together to form a modulated "super-pulse".

e.g. if there were 2 elements, A and B, in the pulse array and the desired width of the pulse were "12", then A would fire, then B, then A, then B ... until A and B had both fired 6 times.

As pulse A lasts for a finite amount of time, B starts its pulse just as A finishes its pulse. So this is how you get "constant switching energy": as A turns off, B turns on. Although it seems to me that each full modulated super-pulse (e.g. the 12-wide pulse) starts and ends with pulse switching events that don't have counter-acting opposite unit-pulses.

With 4 or 16 or 20 elements, the longest pulse that's 64-wide (or 63-wide?) will require most elements to fire multiple times.

What I'm failing to understand is why quality improves with the greater set of elements. And, consequently, I'm missing how that gives DAVE better headroom at max/min output.

Is the number of elements directly related to the number of noise shaper output bits? It seems not as I think you're saying that the noise shaper output is 6-bit (both at 104MHz?) in both DAVE and Mojo (and Hugo?).

Does an increase in elements improve linearity due to power supply sizing/consistency of pulse energy? Do the pulse elements take time to recover from their previous "on"? Is that effectively a power supply noise effect?


----------



## Rob Watts

jawed said:


> Thanks, very interesting.
> So this seems to imply that pulses have 64 different widths and that the elements take it in turn to add a unit-pulse to the sequence of existing unit-pulses that all join together to form a modulated "super-pulse".
> 
> e.g. if there were 2 elements, A and B, in the pulse array and the desired width of the pulse were "12", then A would fire, then B, then A, then B ... until A and B had both fired 6 times.
> ...


 
 Hi,
  
 Yes the output is 6 bits, but that includes overload bits too as the noise shaper needs that. So for 20 elements, its a range of 0 to 20, with 21 to 31 clamped to 20, and negative values set to 0. So with that any value from 0 to 20 can be encoded with all elements switching with net cancellation of edges - so common master clock jitter is eliminated for constant values.
  
 Now the usual range is 17 values (16 elements on, and all off), so I need an extra overhead to ensure individual elements do not stop switching, and provide the noise shaper with headroom, so hence the extra 4. This means no distortion from pulse array as it approaches clipping.
  
 The 4e arrangement is different.
  
 Hope that makes sense, Rob


----------



## romaz

str-1 said:


> Hi Rob,
> After a good two-week loan experience I have now ordered a Dave for use initially as a headphone-only system - AK380/Dave/HE1000 most of the time but I also have HD800 and will shortly be getting a MacBook Pro. I am pleased by all the posts commenting on how unnecessary expensive interconnect cables will be with Dave but I am not sure if that includes mains cables and mains conditioners. Do you have any advice to offer on whether mains cables and conditioners can affect the sound quality of Dave? Thanks in advance


 
 I can share with you my own experience.
  
 If you've read my previous posts, you know that I have not found any significant difference from one source to another.  If you recall, as a worse case scenario, I used a dirty 12-core Mac Pro with its switching PSU (which is a much dirtier source than any MacBook Pro as laptops contains lighter hardware with less RF and can run off batteries) connected to mains without line conditioning and with its standard 18g mains cable and to DAVE with a generic $10 USB cable.  This was compared against a variety of purpose-built music servers ranging from an $8,000 Aurender N10, $3,500 Aurender X100L + $1,200 custom Kenneth Lau linear PSU, $3,000 custom built PC with Windows Server 2012 R2 core + Audiophile Optimizer + linear PSU, and a $300 Sonore Sonicorbiter SE (Roon endpoint) + linear PSU.  While blinded, a group of 3 listeners could not state a preference for one source against another even though the optimized sources had the further advantage of being connected to a Son of Q balanced power supply (isolation transformer + RF filter) and benefited from expensive mains cables (Audience AU24SE or Digital Dynamics Challenger AE15 with active RF shield).  
  
 Well, I have compared one more source because I couldn't leave well enough alone.  I was convinced I could find some source that the DAVE couldn't work its magic on.  I currently have on hand an Oppo BDP-105D which is an excellent CD/SACD transport.  Unlike typical CD/SACD transports, this unit is capable of Tidal streaming although those of you who have an Oppo know that Tidal streaming with the Oppo is _utterly_ horrible.  While CD/SACD playback is reference quality, Tidal streaming sounds hollow and distant, worse than highly compressed MP3 playback from an iPhone. It is probably the worst implementation of Tidal streaming I have heard and I'm not sure why because the SQ I get from Netflix streaming from the Oppo is very good.  Well, I connected this Oppo unit to DAVE via my optical cable and as expected, CD and SACD playback is excellent, as good as any of the other sources I previously mentioned.  To my surprise (but maybe by now, I shouldn't be surprised), Tidal playback from the Oppo through the DAVE is also utterly spectacular and as good as any of the sources listed above.  If there was maybe a small iota of doubt I had before, that doubt is now gone.  Just feed the DAVE a bit-perfect file and find yourself rewarded.  I suspect you could stream a bit-perfect file wirelessly to the DAVE through Bluetooth and it would sound just as good.  Perhaps a feature to consider for the future?
  
 Now what about DAVE itself?  As I shared with you, mechanical isolation matters.  What about the quality of mains power to the DAVE?  Here is the standard 18g US mains cable that came with my DAVE.  I had not used it on the DAVE until now:
  

  
 Here is the $3,500 Dynamic Design Challenger AE15 mains cable I have been using with the DAVE.  
  

  
 This mains cable is specifically designed for low power digital front ends like a DAC and has an active battery-operated RF shield and I can verify this shield works.  As you turn the shield from on to off with a switch, the music becomes less illuminated and probably has a similar impact as Shunyata's or Isotek's digital mains cables with RF shields.  Could the cheap 18g mains cable that comes with the DAVE sound as good as this expensive specialty cable?  Furthermore, with the DAVE, does a dedicated line conditioner/isolation transformer make a difference?
  
 Well, here is my testing methodology:
  
 1.  DAVE with cheap 18g mains cable > direct to wall VS expensive mains cable > direct to wall.
 2.  DAVE with cheap 18g mains cable > direct to wall VS expensive mains cable > Son of Q (isolation transformer + RF conditioner) > wall
 3.  DAVE with cheap 18g mains cable > Son of Q > wall VS expensive mains cable > Son of Q > wall
  
 My listening room / home office has a dedicated AC line with good earth ground although this line also powers LED and incandescent lights in the room, a large LED television, several computers, computer monitor, scanner and printer, speaker amp and powered subwoofer.  My HE-1000 was used and connected to DAVE via DHC cable.  Two-channel was also evaluated.  Three tracks were chosen for their wide dynamic range, complexity and because I know them well.  I used (1) a DXD recording by 2L of Mozart's Requiem, a complex passage that contains amazing depth and a large chamber choir, (2) an organ improvisation of Deilig er Jorden (Fairest Lord Jesus), another DXD recording by 2L that I chose for its complex and rich bass dimensionality and (3) Beethoven's Piano Sonata No 29, a 16/44 recording performed by Alessio Bax, a young up-and-coming pianist I saw live a few months ago.
  
 This is what I found.  While unfiltered power to components pre-DAVE (ie music server, CD transport) don't seem to impact the DAVE, good power to the DAVE _does_ make a noticeable difference and while this difference is not as pronounced as I have heard with my other DACs, it is noticeable even with blind testing.
  
 In each scenario, when DAVE was connected to the expensive mains cable, the volume seemed elevated and this is how I could so easily pick it out even when blinded.  I have noticed this phenomenon in the past with my other DACs and it isn't because the SPL is actually higher but more likely because the noise floor is lower and the dynamic contrasts are greater.  The highs are more extended, easily noticeable at the 45 second mark on Mozart's Requiem.  There is also more definition to the bass with the bass layers more finely delineated on the organ track.  On the Alessio Bax track, when he is hammering on the upper register keys of the piano, with the expensive mains cable, there is clearer delineation of the keys whereas with the cheap mains cable, there is more noticeable smearing.  On 5/5 tries, when blinded, I was able to accurately pick out the more expensive mains cable. 
  
 When the cheap mains cable was kept plugged into the wall and the expensive cable was plugged into the Son of Q conditioner, this delta widened further although the benefit was less pronounced compared to the expensive cable by itself.  When the cheap mains cable itself was plugged into the Son of Q, the gap became narrower.  Both with and without the Son of Q, there was no noticeable compromise in dynamics, a claim made by some against line conditioners.  It became clear to me that both the isolation transformer/RF conditioner and the more expensive mains cable resulted in additive improvements essentially leading to a darker, more dynamic and refined presentation.  The effect was more noticeable on headphones than it was on 2-channel and I surmise that this is because "direct to DAC" is more capable of revealing improvements.
  
 These are my personal observations about the DAVE so far:
  
 1.  The digital file matters.  There is a clear improvement with my 24/192 and DXD recordings over 16/44 (I'm not talking about upsampled music but native recordings).  While PCM is technically superior to DSD, DSD and _especially_ DSD128 can sound very good.  Unfortunately, since Roon cannot currently play DSD256 via DoP, I am unable to play my native DSD256 recordings and I am left wondering how good this sounds through the DAVE.  Regardless, I am pleased the DAVE is so versatile.
  
 2.  While the digital file matters, the digital file server does not (and I never thought I would ever be saying that).  Simple bit-perfect delivery even with a cheap USB or optical cable is all that is required.
  
 3.  The DAVE benefits from mechanic isolation, especially with 2 channel.
  
 4.  The DAVE benefits from clean mains power.  While Rob has done a splendid job of isolating the DAVE against its own switching PSU, a mains cable with good RF shielding can make a noticeable difference.  While some believe connecting a DAC to a dedicated line conditioner can potentially rob it of some of its dynamic potential, with either the Audience aR6-TSSOX passive conditioner that I have on hand as well as the Son of Q transformer-based conditioner that I have decided to replace the Audience unit with, I have not found this to be the case.  With these types of devices, YMMV and will depend on how much noise is in your mains line and so try before you buy.  In my system, the DAVE with the cheap mains cable by no means sounds harsh or lifeless but my better mains cable + isolation transformer / RF filter clearly adds a desirable sense of refinement.
  
 6.  While the quality of digital interconnects don't seem to matter, the quality of analog interconnects, headphone cables and speaker cables absolutely matter as the DAVE has the potential to reveal the best qualities but also the limitations and flaws of such cables.
  
 7.  With the DAVE, headphones potentially will sound better than 2 channel or any scenario where you have to add an outboard preamp or amplifier.  At the present time, because most DACs do not have the ability to connect directly to a headphone without an intermediary amplifier, it is my belief that the DAVE is_ the_ best headphone DAC in the world for *most* headphones. The immediacy and clarity that this direct connection provides cannot be overstated and while I cannot speak for the preference of others, personally, I would try to find another headphone before I considered adding a headphone amplifier.  As for 2-channel, for me it is a forgone conclusion that I will be adding Chord's new amp to my system once it becomes available if it provides the same level of transparency I am getting now with my HE-1000 direct to DAVE.


----------



## romaz

If any of you are wondering how I'm playing my SACDs from my Oppo through the DAVE, this is how:
  

 I posted this previously on this thread as it worked well with my TotalDac but I just recently began to test it with my DAVE and I can tell you that it works flawlessly.  It is also adequately powered by my Oppo's HDMI port and so you won't need to plug it into the wall.  As you know, an SACD stream is encrypted via any digital connection except HDMI and so if you try to play a track from your SACD player to DAVE via optical or coax out, all you get is silence.  This $20 gadget I purchased from Ebay (made in China) will grab the SACD stream from HDMI and convert it to optical without altering the stream.  In other words, it remains bit-perfect and sounds very good, just as good as any other source you have.  DAVE will show a PCM sample rate of 88.2 kHz on its screen which is the appropriate DoP sample rate for DSD64.  If you own an SACD player with HDMI out (like an Oppo or select Cambridge or Arcam player) and you have a large SACD collection, this little gadget is highly recommended.


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## romaz

As the DAVE has the potential to sound outstanding in almost any situation, even without expensive mains cables or line conditioning, the focus quickly shifts to the quality of the digital file.  With a poor recording or poorly implemented digital file, the DAVE probably won't sound much better than any other DAC and so I am left to wonder if this is why certain people don't notice much difference between the DAVE and other DACs that it should easily outpace.  Moreover, there are vinyl aficionados who continue to believe that digital has yet to catch up to vinyl because digital still sounds, well...digital.  Much has been made of the flaws of DSD but as I hear it, 16/44, while better than DSD64, remains a chokehold on the DAVE.  As as been mentioned, certain DXD recordings sound especially good on the DAVE and I would have to concur with this.
  
 While there is much about DAC technology that is beyond my current understanding, I believe I have a better grasp of the science of hearing and so I will lay out here what I understand and I would appreciate it if Rob or anyone else could correct my understanding and my logic if it is flawed.
  
 As anyone who has spent quality time with the DAVE knows, this DAC excels in time resolution resulting in a very real sense of depth and the appreciation of even the most subtle spatial cues.  It is well established that the adult human ear has an auditory time resolution capability of somewhere between 5-10µs.  This means that if two sounds occur >10µs apart, most of us will hear 2 discrete sounds whereas if two sounds occur <5µs apart, most will hear only one sound.  It is this ability that tells us a tree is crashing quickly towards us and that we should run for safety.  It is this same ability that gives a sound a certain tonal quality and dimension.  It is also this ability that tells us we are listening to a CD which contains discrete bits of data interposed with blank gaps as opposed to analog media which contains a continuous data stream.
  
 When we are presented with a digital file, all we are given are its bit rate (from 16-24 bits) and its sampling rate (from 44 to 384 kHz) and as we know, a CD or Redbook represents 16/44.  I have always considered sampling rate as the more important of the two parameters because this is what gives us the time resolution of the file.  With Redbook, at a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz, auditory time resolution is 20.8µs, meaning our ears can clearly discern that there are gaps and that there is time information missing.  As you increase the sampling rate to 96 kHz, the auditory time resolution improves to 10.4µs which is improved although compared to vinyl, most of us can still tell there are gaps.  It is only when you boost the sampling rate to 192 kHz that you bring down this auditory time resolution to 5.2µs.  At this sampling rate, most of our ears are unable to discern a difference against vinyl.  If we are to saturate our ears so that music sounds continuous rather than being made up of digital bits, it would seem we need to target a sampling rate of 192 kHz.  At the same time, anything beyond this would seem beyond the threshold of our ability to discern and seem unnecessary.  I understand the DAVE and other DACs that upsample will go beyond this sampling rate to address ringing issues introduced by the ADC but it would seem to me that this is a different issue altogether.
  
 Bit rate, as we know, represents dynamic range with each bit representing 6 dB of DR.  This means a CD has 96 dB of DR while a 24-bit file has 144 dB of DR, an SPL that is well beyond what is desirable or safe for human hearing.  The DAVE lists a DR of 127 dBA or roughly 21 bits of DR and while Rob has told me he could have tweaked the DAVE to have a higher DR, it would possibly come at some compromise elsewhere and that it was useless to shoot for a higher value since it wouldn't translate to any improvement that could be appreciated.   Indeed, in the pit of a symphony orchestra, rarely do sound pressure levels exceed 100dB and so it would appear that 16 bits of DR or 96 dB is probably very adequate and that 21 bits of DR is more than is necessary.
  
 If my logic is sound, then it would make sense for each of us to target recordings that are at a minimum of 16 bits of DR and 192 kHz of sampling.  Since these ratios don't exist, then we would want to target 24/192 recordings and indeed, this is what I try to do.  If a DXD recording is available, great, but if we have to pay more for DXD than 24/192, it would seem that it would be money wasted.  Rob, or anyone else, would you disagree?  With DAVINA, is there audible benefit to going beyond 24/192?


----------



## Rob Watts

One of the good things about the Davina project is that I will have clear answers to these problems.
  
 Firstly, timing. The problem that Dave is solving, and its a very important problem only due to sampling the music, is the reconstruction of the timing of transients. Now a bandwidth limited signal (that is zero output at 22.05 kHz and above), if you use an infinite tap FIR filter, with a sinc function for the coefficients, would *perfectly *recover the missing waveform that was within the ADC before it was sampled. So if we have a DAC that has an interpolation filter that was "good enough" - that is double the taps and you hear no difference, and halve the time from one OP to the next and you still hear no change - then we will be left with a perfect reconstruction filter, and the DAC will re-create the signal effectively perfectly before it was sampled. What we will hear is the bandwidth limited signal. Now my question is - will bandwidth limiting within the ADC change the SQ? This I will find out from Davina, and I can test this without using decimation, so I will know this aspect for sure.
  
 The second issue is amplitude accuracy. Now depth perception requires zero error in small signal accuracy - the smallest error in amplitude, no matter how small, seems to confuse the brain, and so it can't calculate the depth correctly, and we then see a degradation in the perceived depth. Now with Dave the small signal performance of the noise shaper allows a -301dB signal to be reproduced perfectly - that's way better than 50 bits, and actually more like 64 bit accuracy. So how do I encode 64 bit amplitude linearity within a 16 bit system at 44.1? Will triangular dither do it? In principle it will. Normally I use noise shapers to guarantee 64 bit audio performance, but although this works at 768 kHz, it won't work effectively at 44.1 kHz. Again, this is an aspect that I will find out from the Davina project.
  
 Rob


----------



## Jawed

romaz, I'd like to rock your world slightly:

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/1kHz-105-dither.wav

This is a -105dB 1Khz sine wave encoded in 16-bit WAV format at 48KHz sampling rate. On my Hugo TT with HD 800 S I have to go to almost maximum volume to be able to hear the tone. But there it is 



> How is the -105dB tone still clearly audible above a -96dB noise floor?
> 
> The answer: Our -96dB noise floor figure is effectively wrong; we're using an inappropriate definition of dynamic range. (6*bits)dB gives us the RMS noise of the entire broadband signal, but each hair cell in the ear is sensitive to only a narrow fraction of the total bandwidth. As each hair cell hears only a fraction of the total noise floor energy, the noise floor at that hair cell will be much lower than the broadband figure of -96dB.


----------



## Christer

romaz said:


> As the DAVE has the potential to sound outstanding in almost any situation, even without expensive mains cables or line conditioning, the focus quickly shifts to the quality of the digital file.  With a poor recording or poorly implemented digital file, the DAVE probably won't sound much better than any other DAC and so I am left to wonder if this is why certain people don't notice much difference between the DAVE and other DACs that it should easily outpace.  Moreover, there are vinyl aficionados who continue to believe that digital has yet to catch up to vinyl because digital still sounds, well...digital.  Much has been made of the flaws of DSD but as I hear it, 16/44, while better than DSD64, remains a chokehold on the DAVE.  As as been mentioned, certain DXD recordings sound especially good on the DAVE and I would have to concur with this.
> 
> While there is much about DAC technology that is beyond my current understanding, I believe I have a better grasp of the science of hearing and so I will lay out here what I understand and I would appreciate it if Rob or anyone else could correct my understanding and my logic if it is flawed.
> 
> ...


 

 Hello again romaz


romaz said:


> As the DAVE has the potential to sound outstanding in almost any situation, even without expensive mains cables or line conditioning, the focus quickly shifts to the quality of the digital file.  With a poor recording or poorly implemented digital file, the DAVE probably won't sound much better than any other DAC and so I am left to wonder if this is why certain people don't notice much difference between the DAVE and other DACs that it should easily outpace.  Moreover, there are vinyl aficionados who continue to believe that digital has yet to catch up to vinyl because digital still sounds, well...digital.  Much has been made of the flaws of DSD but as I hear it, 16/44, while better than DSD64, remains a chokehold on the DAVE.  As as been mentioned, certain DXD recordings sound especially good on the DAVE and I would have to concur with this.
> 
> While there is much about DAC technology that is beyond my current understanding, I believe I have a better grasp of the science of hearing and so I will lay out here what I understand and I would appreciate it if Rob or anyone else could correct my understanding and my logic if it is flawed.
> 
> ...


 

 Hello again romaz, your last two posts are  very interesting indeed.
 Since I haven't heard 16/44.1 via DAVE I will wait with my opinion regarding DSD 64 versus 16&/44.1. and DAVE. But via every thing else I have heard including Hugo 16/44.1 sounds better than ever via Hugo but still not as  good as  well recorded DSD64 IMHO. The timing and flow of DSD wins clearly for me over even interpolated 44.1 as with Hugo.
 Ok at times resolution is a bit lacking in fff with lots of instruments playing con tutta forza.
 But I basically never experience the digititis  listening fatigue 16/44.1 tends to induce even via Hugo after a while, with DSD 64.
 And among  all classical recording  pros and conductors  I know, and they are quite a few, I can't recall that anyone thinks 16/44.1 sounds better or even as good as DSD 64.
 What I can't  understand is why  there is so much attention to adress the problems and missing timing information with 16/44.1 when basically everything since many years is recorded at higher rates anyway?
 Personally I  care little or not at all for genres that are stuck in the  rbcd timeloop.
 And I still have not got an answer why  only the bandwith limited 16/44.1 can be recovereed in an ideal 1 million taps world?
 Real live acoustic instruments like  percussion have  content up to 90-100khz don't they ?
 I suspect that one of the reasons apart from timing and flow  that simply more information as such,with  both DSD and HD PCM makes it  sound better more realistic is because it contains more HF information which even if we cant define it as tones with our hearing  could still influence  things in a favourable way.
 I did a similar test as the one you suggested and could hear a pressure on my ears up to 22khz where the test stopped and could define a tone on my right ear up to 19khz  in my right ear and 16  khz on the left. via HD800 and Hugo.
 I think there are "a lot of unknown unknowns" to quote Rob .
 Regarding the rest my ears tell me basically the same as yours.


----------



## bmichels

Those few last posts from Romaz and Rob are so interesting that I printed this page to archive it...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   Thanks to you all.


----------



## JaZZ

christer said:


> Hello again romaz, your last two posts are  very interesting indeed.
> Since I haven't heard 16/44.1 via DAVE I will wait with my opinion regarding DSD 64 versus 16&/44.1. and DAVE. But via every thing else I have heard including Hugo 16/44.1 sounds better than ever via Hugo but still not as  good as  well recorded DSD64 IMHO. The timing and flow of DSD wins clearly for me over even interpolated 44.1 as with Hugo.
> Ok at times resolution is a bit lacking in fff with lots of instruments playing con tutta forza.
> But I basically never experience the digititis  listening fatigue 16/44.1 tends to induce even via Hugo after a while.
> ...


 
  
 My theory as to why higher sampling rate matters is interference (beside the filter resonance itself). Ultrasonics may not be audible themselves, but may leave audible traces nonetheless.
  
 Here's an image with two tones of equal loudness, 15.2 and 23.9 kHz, sampled with 192 kHz:
  

  
 The two tones mixed together create a signal with massive amplitude fluctuation. Let's consider it an analogue signal to be sampled with 44.1 kHz. Which implies the mandatory low-pass filter for preventing aliasing (actually before and after digitization). The filter with its high Q factor and correspondingly massive filter resonance will completely eliminate the amplitude modulation on the (audible) 15.2 kHz tone caused by the (inaudible) 23.9 kHz tone.
  
 It's up to debate if the amplitude modulation be audible or not. Personally I see no reason why it shouldn't be. It was my strong impression since the first few beats I heard from my first CD that overtones were smeared by a coolish glare, everything was too clean and sleek.
  
 Now with DAVE this is reduced to an easily tolerable rest – to my ears. As mentioned, equalizing my headphones is of higher importance to me, and since my FiiO X5 II allows equalizing only up to 48 kHz... Moreover, most of my music collection is 44.1 kHz anyway.


----------



## Christer

jazz said:


> My theory as to why higher sampling rate matters is interference (beside the filter resonance itself). Ultrasonics may not be audible themselves, but may leave audible traces nonetheless.
> 
> Here's an image with two tones of equal loudness, 15.2 and 23.9 kHz, sampled with 192 kHz:
> 
> ...


 

 Sounds plausible to me.
 My first CD audition of classical music still remains the most disappointing HI FI or rather lack of the same I have experienced.
 Even a direct cut 78rpm from the 30s  sounded more like real music to me, than what I heard from Philips and Sony's first cd players at the first demos.
 Luckily it sounds a lot better these days.
 And the difference between 16/44.1 and higher res is not day and night to me either.
 But one of the things that has always troubled me with  rbcd, 16/44.1,and still does, has been the smearing  you mention which to me  has been especially bad with strings and percussion instruments.
 Prof Johnsson's HDCD  was the first real  step towards better rbcd sound.
 I wonder how close his carrier signal system is to what Rob Watts is doing  know?
 Or did it add more bits? I can't remember. Anyway it sounded a bit better than plain rbcd.
 Another  personal problem with rbcd which may sound silly to many here, is that I have found it difficult to conduct along  to rbcds compared to the same work on LPs .
 With DSD and SACD  and now hi res pcm downloads I can conduct along to the music more easily again.Ok I am a lousy conductor and miss a lot of beats. But anyway.
 I can only describe it as the music is flowing  again.


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## STR-1

romaz said:


> I can share with you my own experience.
> 
> If you've read my previous posts, you know that I have not found any significant difference from one source to another.  If you recall, as a worse case scenario, I used a dirty 12-core Mac Pro with its switching PSU (which is a much dirtier source than any MacBook Pro as laptops contains lighter hardware with less RF and can run off batteries) connected to mains without line conditioning and with its standard 18g mains cable and to DAVE with a generic $10 USB cable.  This was compared against a variety of purpose-built music servers ranging from an $8,000 Aurender N10, $3,500 Aurender X100L + $1,200 custom Kenneth Lau linear PSU, $3,000 custom built PC with Windows Server 2012 R2 core + Audiophile Optimizer + linear PSU, and a $300 Sonore Sonicorbiter SE (Roon endpoint) + linear PSU.  While blinded, a group of 3 listeners could not state a preference for one source against another even though the optimized sources had the further advantage of being connected to a Son of Q balanced power supply (isolation transformer + RF filter) and benefited from expensive mains cables (Audience AU24SE or Digital Dynamics Challenger AE15 with active RF shield).
> 
> ...



Roman, thanks for that - great post! As soon as I get my Dave, and after I have run it in, I'll try some mains cable options. Cheers


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## lovethatsound

Romaz, another great series of posts by you,offering us Dave users valuable information and insight into the Dave.Are you sure you and Rob are not twins?lol,ANYWAY thanks alot.


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## romaz

jawed said:


> romaz, I'd like to rock your world slightly:
> 
> http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/1kHz-105-dither.wav
> 
> This is a -105dB 1Khz sine wave encoded in 16-bit WAV format at 48KHz sampling rate. On my Hugo TT with HD 800 S I have to go to almost maximum volume to be able to hear the tone. But there it is


 
 Thanks for this but with my DAVE and HE-1000 (my HD800 S has not yet arrived) and at maximum volume level, I am unable to hear this tone.  Can anyone else with a DAVE hear it?


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## JaZZ

Yes, I can (just) hear it with a HD 800 and DAVE at 0 dB. At +19 dB it's clearly audible and even relatively clean. The same goes for the HE1000 (even though a bit lower in volume).


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## romaz

Ok, yes, I hear it also with my HE-1000 if I go to +19 dB.  I didn't try going beyond 0dB before.  Very interesting.


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## Jawed

romaz said:


> Ok, yes, I hear it also with my HE-1000 if I go to +19 dB.  I didn't try going beyond 0dB before.  Very interesting.



So, ahem, now you know how loud you have to set the volume to hear the "dynamic range" in your recordings


----------



## Beolab

jawed said:


> So, ahem, now you know how loud you have to set the volume to hear the "dynamic range" in your recordings




So if we set the volume so we just hear the (pip) 1khz sine wave, then we know that its on full DR range if i have understand it correct.


----------



## Jawed

beolab said:


> jawed said:
> 
> 
> > So, ahem, now you know how loud you have to set the volume to hear the "dynamic range" in your recordings
> ...



Sorry, what I wrote is meant as a joke. I'm pretty sure if you listened to a normal recording with the volume setting that high you'd get clipping and you'd hurt your ears.

People like to talk about the dynamic range of 16-bit or 24-bit formats, but forget just how ridiculously loud you have to set the volume control to be able to hear the quietest parts of the recording - if there is anything there - at -90dB or -100dB etc.


----------



## Beolab

jawed said:


> Sorry, what I wrote is meant as a joke. I'm pretty sure if you listened to a normal recording with the volume setting that high you'd get clipping and you'd hurt your ears.
> 
> People like to talk about the dynamic range of 16-bit or 24-bit formats, but forget just how ridiculously loud you have to set the volume control to be able to hear the quietest parts of the recording - if there is anything there - at -90dB or -100dB etc.






Okay then i understand


----------



## dan.gheorghe

romaz said:


> Slightly off topic but I presume you're joking about your upper limit of hearing although if you're a musician or you listen to your music very loud, maybe you're not.
> 
> As a physician in my real job, I can tell you that by age 25, most of us are unable to hear signals above 15 kHz.  I know I can't and it's just a fact of life.  As we age, this gets worse but depending on your line of work or routine behaviors (musician, military, construction, frequent IEM user), some of us lose our hearing more drastically.  Sounds discouraging but there's another way to look at it.
> 
> ...


 
 This is also a good test: http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencycheckhigh.php
  
 Could hear up to 19khz, even 20khz a little bit.
  
 I've seen lots of friends that don't give too much importance to their hearing, this being one of the reasons I wrote *this article.*


----------



## Beolab

I have also made som testing and tried out the stock C13 IEC power cable and another "stock" C15 IEC cable connected to a Isotek Sirius -40db RF mains filter with isolated outlets Vs a AQ NRG-1000 0,9 m with active DBS 72v RF shield and a NRG-10 1.8m DBS 72 v 
( NRG-10 is the same as NRG-1000 but with Different power plugs just) also connected to the Isotek filter, and i think i can hear a difference i think. 
Very subtle, but maybe slight better less numb feeling in the bass and overall fluidness maybe. Then i tried a Nordost Valhalla 1.8 m passive power cable i have connected to one of my ATC speakers usually, and i couldn't hear any big difference either to the AQ cables, and i like the Active RF shielding idea of the AQ cables, so i think i stick with one of them for the DAVE and the 1.8 m NRG-10 for the Isotek so i use the same brand on every digital cable and on the power side. Looks better 
So it is not the first upgrade i will recommend if you are on a tight budget. 
Maybe i can recommend a slight better one , than the stock C13 IEC China cable, with better connecting power plugs wouldn't hurt. 
A cheap upgrade can be the C15 IEC cable with better connector plugs than the C13. 
The budget C15 IEC cable did maybe sound less numb in the bass than the C13 stock one. 

 Maybe romaz with his more exotic cables / power filter does a slight subtle more difference for the sound, but it doesn't feel that it is any huge gain on the power side for DAVE to achieve either from my impressions. 

So DAVE is pretty much immune on power also. This is a remarkable DAC i have to say. 

Have not tested the power cables direct from the wall mains to DAVE without the Isotek filter yet like romaz though. 

Then i feel that every time im listening to the DAVE you hear different and new qualities, so its not just the break-in for the DAVE, it is a break-in procedure for your ears also k_hand_tone1:


----------



## Jawed

Ah yes that is a better test, about 16KHz for me versus 15 KHz with the other test that I linked to as being more likely correct.

While we're on that website, this is fun:

http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_16vs8bit_NeilYoung.php

Can you tell the difference between 8-bit Neil Young and 16-bit Neil Young? I got 5/10 correct


----------



## dan.gheorghe

jawed said:


> Ah yes that is a better test, about 16KHz for me versus 15 KHz with the other test that I linked to as being more likely correct.
> 
> While we're on that website, this is fun:
> 
> ...


 
 8/10, but I think the sample was poorly chosen for this test.


----------



## romaz

esimms86 said:


> Romaz's DHC cable is very tempting but I'm hoping that once I hear my stock HE1000 through Dave I will be cured of upgradeitis forever(yes, I can hear you now). Then there's also the notion of spending 2800 dollars on a headphone that already costs 3000 dollars in an effort to squeeze out that last few per cent of sound improvement.


 
 Don't feel you have to spend $2,800 for a Silver Spore4.  Mine was more expensive because I needed a 10 foot long cable and continuous cast UP-OCC silver at that length is unfortunately crazy expensive.  Because you won't need the more expensive XLR terminations for the DAVE and if you can get by with a more standard 5 foot long cable, it is _only_ $1,600.  If you get the Silver Complement4 which has the exact same UP-OCC grade silver and cotton primary dielectric (minus the heavy shielding), it is only $1,000.  I believe I would be equally happy with the Silver Complement4 if I didn't need a long cable length.  The biggest problem is that it could take months to get one but I would be surprised, should you get one, if you didn't find it worth every penny because both the DAVE and HE-1000 will scale beautifully with this cable.  You should only have to buy this cable once and with adapters, you should be able to use it with any headphone.


----------



## bmichels

Sorry, I don't want to hijack this thread, but since I bought a BHSE to jump into the Electrostatic word, I sell my Eddie Current 445 tube amp. If someone is interested...


----------



## romaz

christer said:


> But via every thing else I have heard including Hugo 16/44.1 sounds better than ever via Hugo but still not as  good as  well recorded DSD64 IMHO. The timing and flow of DSD wins clearly for me over even interpolated 44.1 as with Hugo.


 
 Chris, I don't disagree with you. You are obviously passionate about the music you love and know well and who am I to tell you what sounds best to you.  When I suggested 16/44 is better than DSD64, I was speaking from a technical standpoint based on the flaws of DSD that Rob described.  Having said that, I find DSD playback on the DAVE superb.  DAVE seems to fix many sins, both with DSD and Redbook.  I have CDs that were barely listenable with my previous system that are more than tolerable now.
  
 What I find true, however, is that it's best to purchase a file in the original format it was recorded in.  If the original source file is 16/44, I'm sure I don't have to convince anyone that there would be no advantage in buying an upsampled version of that file.  It's also a shame if something is well recorded using a DSD recorder to down-res it to 16/44 or to transcode it to PCM of any type.  By all means, keep it DSD.  At the same time, If something is recorded in DXD, I don't know that I see any advantage at all converting it to DSD.  As the DAVE can play it all but more importantly, play it all superbly, then buy it in its native format.
  
 In my personal library, Roon is telling me I own more than 1,500 CDs and so I'm not ready to throw those away based on the fact that it's old technology.  With DAVE, I am enjoying these CDs more than ever.  Moving forward, however, I try to buy only hi-res files when I can, whether they are analog-sourced or digital-sourced and based on the principles that I posted, I generally look for a minimum of 24/192 PCM.  It seems DXD recordings are more common and so I expect my purchases will be largely PCM but if DSD is all that is available, then so be it.  At the end of the day, I don't really want to fuss about whether something is PCM or DSD, I just want to enjoy my music and fortunately, since my DAVE has arrived, these distinctions matter less.
  
 For those that are interested in comparing how well DAVE handles different formats of the same recording, check out 2L's site that contains free downloads of files of varying bitrates, from 16/44 to 24/352 and even DSD256.  Most were originally recorded in DXD and so as I have done comparisons, native DXD (24/352) sounds best with 24/192 being almost indistinguishable to my ears.  DSD sounds good and while 16/44 potentially sounds the worst, all formats are very enjoyable.  There is really no losing proposition here when played through the DAVE.
  
  http://www.2l.no/hires/


----------



## romaz

To add to my comments above, as we know, very few DACs decode DSD natively but rather rely on DoP and Rob has already discussed elsewhere why this is the best way to handle DSD.  DSD 64 (as DoP) has a PCM equivalency of only 24/88 and even DSD 128 is only 24/176.  If you recall, the sampling rate we should ideally target so that our ears are unable to tell that data is coming in as discrete bits interposed with blank gaps is 192 kHz.  Even without the flaws of DSD that Rob described, based on the auditory time resolution principles I described previously, while DSD 128 gets you pretty close, it would appear you would need to record in DSD 256 before you reached the full equivalency of analog media.  Based on what you have to pay for DSD 256 vs 24/192 PCM masters and based on the greater abundance of recordings mastered as PCM, it would seem that PCM is the easier target.  Finally, as both DAVINA and MQA will be operating soley in the PCM realm, DSD may have a difficult future ahead.


----------



## highendhifi

Struggling to upload images but it's DAVE-day!
Right out of the box it sounds so good-all my music is on CD now and "even" at 16/44.1, it sounds so right. Just together and coherent. Musical and easy. Detailed spacious and clean. Finally CD had come of age, perfect sound forever...


----------



## highendhifi

I'm awaiting an acoustic revival stand and am currently using the chord supplied toslink for the Rega and a custom chord cable RCA to BNC spdif for the Bryston bcd1. Can't really tell any difference between the different transports/digital cables-whatever I listen to seems the best lol
Vocals are so clear and harsh discs are far far more listenable now. I have the Dave as pre but should I set it to DAC only and use my BP26 volume? If I commit to one transport then I'll try a direct feed into my 14B


----------



## highendhifi

Box arrives...


----------



## m0nster

highendhifi said:


> Box arrives...




That post is just mean 
Have fun and congrats!


----------



## JaZZ

highendhifi said:


> Struggling to upload images but it's DAVE-day!
> Right out of the box it sounds so good-all my music is on CD now and "even" at 16/44.1, it sounds so right. Just together and coherent. Musical and easy. Detailed spacious and clean. Finally CD had come of age, perfect sound forever...


 
 Congrats on your personal DAVE! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  


highendhifi said:


> I'm awaiting an acoustic revival stand and am currently using the chord supplied toslink for the Rega and a custom chord cable RCA to BNC spdif for the Bryston bcd1. Can't really tell any difference between the different transports/digital cables-whatever I listen to seems the best lol
> Vocals are so clear and harsh discs are far far more listenable now. I have the Dave as pre but should I set it to DAC only and use my BP26 volume? If I commit to one transport then I'll try a direct feed into my 14B


 
  
 DAVE officially is a «digital preamp» – so no need to switch an additional preamp between it and your power amp (the additional electronics would degrade transparency).


----------



## highendhifi

Lol, thanks m0nster


----------



## highendhifi




----------



## highendhifi

jazz said:


> Congrats on your personal DAVE!
> 
> 
> DAVE officially is a «digital preamp» – so no need to switch an additional preamp between it and your power amp (the additional electronics would degrade transparency).



Thanks Jazz, I will once I can but for now I need/want the additional sources


----------



## lovethatsound

highendhifi said:


> Box arrives...


congratulations on getting your Dave,don't forget it takes many hours for it to run in,Enjoy


----------



## PhilW

I'm not too sure an hours lunch break will be long enough. 
  
Chord Electronics DAVE Now Available for Demonstration in London


----------



## lovethatsound

beolab said:


> 46 Ohms / 85 db in sensitivity .
> I do not want to test where it clips because it can heart the diphragm in the headphones if the amp are clipping, and i find it more stressed if i go higher, but vol. - 1 is concert SPL rates almost with great control, it is just that it sounds very thin in the voices / instruments presentation, but with realy extended detailed bass when i go direct from the DAVE.
> 
> It is pretty remarkable how much power it can pump out / 0,5 Amps sounds like the double if you compare it to other amps that maxes out much erlier and sound harsh and stressed, with like 4-6 watts @ 46 ohms that is pretty remarkable!
> ...


Some very good news guys.I like Beolab was using my headphone amp because it sounded a bit thicker,but now after over 12 weeks of running Dave in,I'm using the Daves headphone amp with my hd800 and it sounding totally amazing now,this should put a smile on jaZZs face lol.
Beolab just keep running your Dave in,because the sound from Daves own headphone out is going to change.


----------



## Kamil21

Photo of bottom side of DAVE please?

Calling Dave owners, , I am trying to figure out whether the feet for Dave can be replaced with an after market vibration isolation footing. Can any of you owners post a picture of the underside of Dave.. Are the feet screw on or glued? Thanks!


----------



## bmichels

highendhifi said:


> Struggling to upload images but it's DAVE-day!
> Right out of the box it sounds so good-all my music is on CD now and "even" at 16/44.1, it sounds so right. Just together and coherent. Musical and easy. Detailed spacious and clean. Finally CD had come of age, perfect sound forever...




Just by Curiosity, what CD player are you using with DAVE ? You are not tempted to rip them all on HD ?


----------



## bmichels

Since DAVE is so imune to the source quality, I will be able to keept my Auralic ARIES ... Now that it's software is FINALY stable and that it can act as a ROON endpoint. 

So my question: in order to use ROON with the ARIES, I will need to run ROON server on some kind of PC that stay on my netork ? Right ? But... I do not want to ad a PC to my audio system ! 

*So...are there available already some NAS that can run ROON server by themself WITHOUT any PC involved ?*

This will be Great. Indeed I want to avoid leaving a PC on all the time and this will give me a good reason to finaly use a NAS instead if a USB HD ( USB Hd Is not stable with the ARIES when the library excess 1 Tb).

Thanks in advance


----------



## JaZZ

lovethatsound said:


> Some very good news guys.I like Beolab was using my headphone amp because it sounded a bit thicker,but now after over 12 weeks of running Dave in,I'm using the Daves headphone amp with my hd800 and it sounding totally amazing now,*this should put a smile on jaZZs face* lol.
> Beolab just keep running your Dave in,because the sound from Daves own headphone out is going to change.


 
  
 Indeed! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's a pity you can't see it.


----------



## JaZZ

kamil21 said:


> Photo of bottom side of DAVE please?
> 
> Calling Dave owners, I am trying to figure out whether the feet for Dave can be replaced with an after market vibration isolation footing. Can any of you owners post a picture of the underside of Dave. Are the feet screw on or glued? Thanks!


 
  
 They seem to be glued. After all you can just see eight rubber cones of about 10 mm diameter which aren't easily removable.


----------



## paul79

ROON for Qnap is coming, but not available yet.... So for now, a computer is required to run ROON Server.


----------



## romaz

bmichels said:


> *So...are there available already some NAS that can run ROON server by themself WITHOUT any PC involved ?*


 
 Yes, you can run Roon on a NAS now provided your NAS has sufficient horsepower and RAM.
  
 https://community.roonlabs.com/t/how-to-roonserver-on-qnap-nas/6996


----------



## STR-1

Still living with the loan Dave until mine is delivered in a few days time and still learning how to get the best out of it. Next question, should I leave it turned on all the time or only turn on when I need to use it. The Dave I have at the moment has about 150 hours run-in and I think sounds warmer and fuller after it's been turned on for several hours. Thanks


----------



## Sonic77

str-1 said:


> Still living with the loan Dave until mine is delivered in a few days time and still learning how to get the best out of it. Next question, should I leave it turned on all the time or only turn on when I need to use it. The Dave I have at the moment has about 150 hours run-in and I think sounds warmer and fuller after it's been turned on for several hours. Thanks


I keep mine on stand by, using the remote to turn the Dave off and on.
Congratulations to the new Dave owners, your music listening will never be the same.


----------



## romaz

str-1 said:


> Still living with the loan Dave until mine is delivered in a few days time and still learning how to get the best out of it. Next question, should I leave it turned on all the time or only turn on when I need to use it. The Dave I have at the moment has about 150 hours run-in and I think sounds warmer and fuller after it's been turned on for several hours. Thanks


 
 I think just about all audio gear sounds best when they've been on for a while and warmed up but leaving electronic gear on 24/7 will shorten their lifespan.  The DAVE comes with a 5-year warranty which is reassuring.
  
 Here is a question I posed to Rob some time ago:
  
 Is there a problem leaving the DAVE on 24/7 or is it best to put it into standby mode or turn it off completely at the end of each day?

_I leave both my Daves on all the time - but I am just lazy..._


----------



## m0nster

str-1 said:


> Still living with the loan Dave until mine is delivered in a few days time and still learning how to get the best out of it. Next question, should I leave it turned on all the time or only turn on when I need to use it. The Dave I have at the moment has about 150 hours run-in and I think sounds warmer and fuller after it's been turned on for several hours. Thanks




Does your retailer offer you a loan DAVE until the product has been delivered? That does sound very generous! English people must indeed be very polite


----------



## STR-1

m0nster said:


> Does your retailer offer you a loan DAVE until the product has been delivered? That does sound very generous! English people must indeed be very polite



Yes, I was lucky to come across this dealer. They're some way out of town but the only one I could find within a reasonable travel from London who had kept a demo model; all the others had sold every Dave as soon as it came in. And what's more, I got a very generous part exchange on my Hugo and Mojo.


----------



## romaz

str-1 said:


> Yes, I was lucky to come across this dealer. They're some way out of town but the only one I could find within a reasonable travel from London who had kept a demo model; all the others had sold every Dave as soon as it came in. And what's more, I got a very generous part exchange on my Hugo and Mojo.


 
 What was your wait time to get yours?  Here in the U.S., there's still a line to get one and so dealers are quoting at least a month.


----------



## m0nster

str-1 said:


> Yes, I was lucky to come across this dealer. They're some way out of town but the only one I could find within a reasonable travel from London who had kept a demo model; all the others had sold every Dave as soon as it came in. And what's more, I got a very generous part exchange on my Hugo and Mojo.




You must be talking about Fanthorpes then 

It's really rare to find that in Switzerland too. As far as I know there is one shop with a demo DAVE in the whole country. Maybe I'll make that journey once


----------



## lovethatsound

m0nster said:


> You must be talking about Fanthorpes then
> 
> It's really rare to find that in Switzerland too. As far as I know there is one shop with a demo DAVE in the whole country. Maybe I'll make that journey once


make sure you take plenty of money with you,once you've heard it,you'll have to have it you know


----------



## STR-1

romaz said:


> What was your wait time to get yours?  Here in the U.S., there's still a line to get one and so dealers are quoting at least a month.



Well, from when I took the loan to when I expect mine to be delivered, it will be about a month.


----------



## highendhifi

bmichels said:


> Just by Curiosity, what CD player are you using with DAVE ? You are not tempted to rip them all on HD ?



I'm using both the Rega Isis and the Bryston bcd1-I haven't decided which one to commit to. I'm actually new to all this digital stuff beyond CD's so have no idea how I would rip my (quite large) CD collection to a better file?


----------



## paul79

Yes, I should clarify... ROON is working with Qnap to make a ROON app for Qnap devices, but it is not yet known just how much of a NAS you will have to have at this point. Unless I missed something?


----------



## Sonic77

I have a pile of LP's that I bought last year, still in their plastic wrappers, I haven't played them, that's how good the Dave is, I plan to open them up this weekend and compare the analogue records to digital Dave . I really like the sound of records and cant wait to compare to the Dave.


----------



## lovethatsound

bmichels said:


> Since DAVE is so imune to the source quality, I will be able to keept my Auralic ARIES ... Now that it's software is FINALY stable and that it can act as a ROON endpoint.
> 
> So my question: in order to use ROON with the ARIES, I will need to run ROON server on some kind of PC that stay on my netork ? Right ? But... I do not want to ad a PC to my audio system !
> 
> ...


Have a look at the bluesound vault 2 this could be just what you're looking for


----------



## Skampmeister

Love Bluesound products.


----------



## Christer

romaz said:


> To add to my comments above, as we know, very few DACs decode DSD natively but rather rely on DoP and Rob has already discussed elsewhere why this is the best way to handle DSD.  DSD 64 (as DoP) has a PCM equivalency of only 24/88 and even DSD 128 is only 24/176.  If you recall, the sampling rate we should ideally target so that our ears are unable to tell that data is coming in as discrete bits interposed with blank gaps is 192 kHz.  Even without the flaws of DSD that Rob described, based on the auditory time resolution principles I described previously, while DSD 128 gets you pretty close, it would appear you would need to record in DSD 256 before you reached the full equivalency of analog media.  Based on what you have to pay for DSD 256 vs 24/192 PCM masters and based on the greater abundance of recordings mastered as PCM, it would seem that PCM is the easier target.  Finally, as both DAVINA and MQA will be operating soley in the PCM realm, DSD may have a difficult future ahead.


 

 Interesting figures you mention.
 Filesize could be a partial indication of  quality differences between formats although listening and especially comparing to the live sound  of acoustic music in the hall during sessions has convinced me that although definitely not perfect by any means DSD 64  already a compromise to accommodate  data on disc, still sounds better than any 16/44.1.
 And unless ALL the difference beween 16/44.1 files and DSD 64 is that DSD 64 contains a lot of  hf noise which accounts for the roughly twice as big files, then theoretically at least ,there should be an advantage of DSD over 16/44.1?
 A producer engineer who also had the opportunity  to test  Philips  dacs running at 256 already in the late 90s, told me during some sessions that they sounded better more realistic than the Sony  ones later used running at 64. So yes just as with 16/44.1 chosen for rbcd in the early 80s DSD 64 was a compromise made for technical space saving reasons.
 Neither deliver "perfect sound forever."
  
 I suspect that what Rob Watts meant in his post, was that 16/44.1 can sound better via his dacs where some  vital information not originally captured by the format 16/44.1 has been partly  recovered.
 IMHO what he said does not apply without  such data recovery/interpolation employed.
 But at least with Hugo I still hear better more realistic sound from DSD 64 than 16/44.1 in cases where everything else was equal.
 Maybe  DAVE is a game-changer regarding those two? I did not play any 16/44.1 via DAVE. But I played some 24/48 which sounded very good but still not as resolved as higher rates to my ears and via HE1000.
 Apart from Morten Lindberg's 2L testfiles there are also hi res files from original DXD and DSD 256/128 and 64 available of Reference Recordings latest album of Beethoven's mighty 5th and  7th symphonies that can be bought in all resolutions from Native DSD.com and downsampled from the native DXD to 24/192 from the German site HIGHRESAUDIO.
 I am out travelling in Asia  and on superslow connections  for at least one more month so I can't try those yet. But they could be an interesting title to compare bits and rates and DSD up to 256. Some  DSD diehards  I know are betting on DSD256 and possibly even 512  in the future.
 With my admittedly limited technical knowledge  of digital theory I don't know if all that happens when you go for 128 /256 and so on is that you just  push the terrible drawback of DSD hf noise further out into inaudible  frequency-ranges ? Or if it actually also improves  resolution  and SQ?
 Like I have said I have only heard DSD 256 downsampled to 128 and native DSD 128 and both seem to sound slightly better than DSD 64. Delivering  a bit more air  and more space and acoustic cues.
 You know those little things that makes well recorded music sound more real if one has the equipment  capable to reveal such tiny differences.
 One piece of equipment that seems to have that capablity in spades seems to be DAVE.
  
  Challenge Classics has most of their releases at basically all rates down to 16/44.1 too.
 I am very familar with Morten's recordings and have the reference to live with some of his  as well and I hear basically  the same as you obviously do from those.
 I believe to hear any differences between DXD and 24/192 you need that reference. They are extremely close.Probably most consumer DACs influence the results not necessarily  to the advantage of the higher rates in some cases either.
 And according to Morten himself the real differences for most people and most systems used, don't start until  24/48 and down from there.
 Just my two cents .


----------



## ecwl

highendhifi said:


> I'm using both the Rega Isis and the Bryston bcd1-I haven't decided which one to commit to. I'm actually new to all this digital stuff beyond CD's so have no idea how I would rip my (quite large) CD collection to a better file?




Since most of us feel that DAVE is truly source insensitive, you should sell the more expensive CD player and keep the cheaper one (so sell the Rega). Besides, doesn't Bryston have a better warranty on their transport mechanism?
As for CD ripping, once again it really doesn't matter because DAVE is source insensitive. If you're a PC user, any computer will do and most people with lots to rip use dbPoweramp. If you're a Mac user, you can always start off with iTunes ripping to ALAC. JRiver is a cross platform music player that a lot of people like although for ripping lots of CDs dbPoweramp is faster and more robust, albeit less user friendly than JRiver or iTunes.


----------



## rkt31

can't afford it right now but my dream set up would be Dave feeding to benchmark ahb2 in low gain mode with ATC scm 19 speakers and all furutech custom cabling . may one day I would be able to afford .


----------



## rkt31

this will be real clean and hassle free small and elegant setup which will fully utilize the transparency of dave IMHO.


----------



## m0nster

rkt31 said:


> can't afford it right now but my dream set up would be Dave feeding to benchmark ahb2 in low gain mode with ATC scm 19 speakers and all furutech custom cabling . may one day I would be able to afford .




Dreaming is allowed  Would you have the fitting room for that setup? You will be all the more thrilled when you are able to afford it! Keep working and saving, like me.


----------



## Deftone

rob watts said:


> Yes it is a bit too soon! I need to get the prototype working first. But its not a silly money project.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 i think you should lace davina with some magic crack dust that when the box is opened it floats around in the studio air, hoping to convince the mastering engineers that low dynamic range is a thing of the past.
  
 all this awesome technology being used only to then be a brickwalled DR4/5 album. makes me sad.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I would be interested to hear your impressions guys as to CD dynamics vs higher bit dynamics through Dave. I am starting to wonder how far Red Book can go if mastered properly and played back through Dave.


----------



## JaZZ

daveredref-iii said:


> I would be interested to hear your impressions guys as to CD dynamics vs higher bit dynamics through Dave. I am starting to wonder how far Red Book can go if mastered properly and played back through Dave.


 
  
 I don't hear any difference in terms of dynamics – provided an identical recording. I've converted a few myself from 24 to 16 bit. Theoretically the noise floor is higher with 16 bit (and that's what's commonly meant with the dynamics advantage of higher bit rates), but I don't hear it either.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Deftone
 I agree, over-compressed masters are the blight of this industry. Thank heavens there are some mastering houses that are still concerned about preserving dynamics. The late Doug Sax's "The Mastering Lab" is one such example.
  
 Dynamics is one of the stand out features of Dave Dac and also where it breaks new ground. I was listening to The Ray Gelato Giants (swing Band) "the Full Flavour" CD earlier. This CD was recorded, engineered and mastered by Calum Malcolm at Metropolis Studios in 1995 under license from Linn Records. Played via any good Dac the dynamics are very good but played through Dave I find it hard to imagine higher bit resolution improving on these dynamics by any meaningful measure, it is that good. Red Book really is not as flawed as many people thought. Rob Watts is showing us that.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks for your feedback Jazz.
 I have this theory that Dynamics is intrinsic to a fully emotional performance. Timing/Musicality are not enough. Its the reproduction of the dynamics that provides the final part of the jigsaw. If it is there it will draw out the last drop of emotion from a performance. Without believable (natural) dynamics it is just hifi to me.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Sorry to labour the 'Dynamics' point but this is one of my hobby horses! 
  
 When I first started recording music I got an early drum machine in and then proceeded to program a drum loop. You don't have to be a musician to do this so anyone interested could get some software and drum samples on their PC for free these days and experiment. You soon learn a lot about Timing, Rhythm and dynamics. By replicating a simple rock 4 over 4 beat (bass drum, snare and high hat rhythm) you will immediately find that perfect timing is as boring and robotic as you can imagine and you will tire of the beat very quickly. Then move the timing of each strike randomly off of perfect timing (before and after the perfect time) and it starts to gain a little feel but it is not until you add velocity emphasis (dynamics) that the beat gets groove and this is what sets drummers apart. Its not enough to be a technically good drummer. Emphasis is what gives feel and draws the listener into the music. This is why Steve Gadd (Paul Simon's - 50 ways to leave your lover) is so revered. Try programming something he plays! His varied emphasis is simply wonderful. We could take a simple rock beat and ask 5 drummers to play it. One will have you tapping your foot and 'in the groove' the other 4 may not do anything for you and yet they are all playing exactly the same beat. The only difference is the dynamic emphasis/velocity of each hit. It is this that involves you in the music (or not) and dynamic emphasis is relevant to every instrument and vocal in a performance (and how they relate to each other). Without it we will not feel emotionally attached to the performance.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Btw I am talking about the 'performers timing' above rather than any timing related to the Dac's reproduction of that performance.


----------



## Christer

daveredref-iii said:


> I would be interested to hear your impressions guys as to CD dynamics vs higher bit dynamics through Dave. I am starting to wonder how far Red Book can go if mastered properly and played back through Dave.


 

 The differences between hi res and low res rbcd are not really anything to do with  the dynamic range as such.The dynamic range of rbcd is around 90 dB . Far more than needed to capture  the dynamics of most  real acoustic music.  And that includes the most demanding works by composers like Stravinsky or Shostakovich or Bartok  or Prokofiev or any others who go to dynamic extremes in their works. There are few if any recordings with 90 dB dynamic range. Most  well made classical are around 60-70dB.
 BIS records with the original dynamic range since many years and still are well within the capacity of rbcd.
 But if you listen via a good system to the rbcd 16/44.1 version and the native 24/96 of  their releases the 24/96 will sound  more effortless smoother  and  more realistic although both have the same dynamics.
 There seems to be a lot of misunderstandings regarding dynamics.
 In the genres of popular music I doubt anything ever exceeds 30-40 dB in dynamic range!
 The differences lie mainly in better resolution lower noise floor and better timing.Correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## JaZZ

daveredref-iii said:


> Btw I am talking about the 'performers timing' above rather than any timing related to the Dac's reproduction of that performance.


 
  
 Yes, I understand and agree on the importance of emphasis/accentuation with drum beats. I'm a hobbyist drummer myself (mainly on tables and thighs these days). To my ears certain audio components indeed convey the rhythmical aspect of music better than others. DAVE, Mojo and Hugo certainly belong to those. On the other hand, I don't think it has much to do with the technical aspect of dynamics in the literal sense. Maybe rather with the timing (start and stop of the signal, i.e. signal accuracy).


----------



## m0nster

Since I really can't find enough money for the DAVE atm can anyone of you give me reasons to be happy with the Hugo TT :-D


----------



## lovethatsound

m0nster said:


> Since I really can't find enough money for the DAVE atm can anyone of you give me reasons to be happy with the Hugo TT :-D


If you don't have the cash for the Dave,then get the hugo tt and enjoy your music more than you are now,and who knows in the future you might be able to get a Dave.


----------



## Kamil21

m0nster said:


> Since I really can't find enough money for the DAVE atm can anyone of you give me reasons to be happy with the Hugo TT :-D




If you are a headphone user, the Hugo TT or even Mojo works. Spend the difference on a major headphone upgrade! 

Last week I heard the Sennheiser HD800 in place of my IE800 through the Mojo. Definitely a better value upgrade than what I heard of my IE800 into the Dave on demo


----------



## m0nster

kamil21 said:


> If you are a headphone user, the Hugo TT or even Mojo works. Spend the difference on a major headphone upgrade!
> 
> Last week I heard the Sennheiser HD800 in place of my IE800 through the Mojo. Definitely a better value upgrade than what I heard of my IE800 into the Dave on demo




I just love my Ether C too much for an upgrade atm. It seems that Hifiman is making some amazing headphones now. So that would probably be the next step. And they seem to be driven very well by Chord Dac/headphone amps!


----------



## lovethatsound

kamil21 said:


> If you are a headphone user, the Hugo TT or even Mojo works. Spend the difference on a major headphone upgrade!
> 
> Last week I heard the Sennheiser HD800 in place of my IE800 through the Mojo. Definitely a better value upgrade than what I heard of my IE800 into the Dave on demo


Just wait till you hear a fully run in Dave with the hd800


----------



## lovethatsound

Hifi news out 2day 
Chord dave review 
Final Verdict 
Outstanding product


----------



## m0nster

lovethatsound said:


> Hifi news out 2day
> Chord dave review
> Final Verdict
> Outstanding product




Thanks for the information.
Is it possible to just buy this months hifi news as a digital copy?

I am looking for a classical track with great debth and good quality to test the Hugo TT and DAVE. Could anyone suggest such a track including the link where I can buy it?
Was thinking something with just a part of an orchestra, not the full blown orchestra. (Is it possible to understand what I mean?  )


----------



## lovethatsound

m0nster said:


> Thanks for the information.
> Is it possible to just buy this months hifi news as a digital copy?
> 
> I am looking for a classical track with great debth and good quality to test the Hugo TT and DAVE. Could anyone suggest such a track including the link where I can buy it?
> Was thinking something with just a part of an orchestra, not the full blown orchestra. (Is it possible to understand what I mean?  )


Yes you can,in fact that's how I've got it.
THE review is fantastic and the Dave gets a very RARE high mark,well worth a read,Enjoy


----------



## Beolab

lovethatsound said:


> Yes you can,in fact that's how I've got it.
> THE review is fantastic and the Dave gets a very RARE high mark,well worth a read,Enjoy


 

 Do you have a link where to buy and download the HiFi-News March issue ? =)


----------



## Kamil21

lovethatsound said:


> Hifi news out 2day
> Chord dave review
> Final Verdict
> Outstanding product




Dave was given a score of 91% by HiFi News. A few months back, they gave the DcS Vivaldi a lesser score of 90%... Different reviewer though.


----------



## lovethatsound

beolab said:


> Have a link where to buy and download the HiFi-News March issue ? =)


No sorry m8 just type hifi news in your browser and it should take you there


----------



## TheAttorney

kamil21 said:


> Dave was given a score of 91% by HiFi News. A few months back, they gave the DcS Vivaldi a lesser score of 90%... Different reviewer though.


 

 I'm pretty sure that HFN scores take into account the price of the product. They are not claiming that, say, a £1k product at 80% is the equal of a £10k product at 80%.
 At least that's how it used to be. I haven't checked their small print in recent times, but I will pick up a paper copy soon.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Christer
 Thanks for your feedback and I agree, very little music uses the full depth of dynamics. This is probably why any advantage of say 24 bits on paper does not translate to real world recordings and 16 bits is enough when well mastered well and reproduced via a decent dac like Dave. Over compression is something that affects all bit depths.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

HifiNews - "By any standards this is a remarkable piece of equipment but is it the best DAC you can buy right now? On this showing I wouldn't bet against it."
  
 TheAttorney
 There was no proviso on 'price range' in the reviewers statement but as Kamil says, it is a different reviewer than for the Vivaldi. Having said that, when something as expensive as the Vivaldi comes available it is not uncommon for the whole team of a given publication to have a listen in order to make private comment and evaluation prior to release of a review. This understandably is done in order to avoid any glaring omission in the evaluation. 10 ears are better than 2.


----------



## gnomen

m0nster said:


> Thanks for the information.
> Is it possible to just buy this months hifi news as a digital copy?
> 
> I am looking for a classical track with great debth and good quality to test the Hugo TT and DAVE. Could anyone suggest such a track including the link where I can buy it?
> ...


 
  
 Re a test track of classical music - a somewhat open request - I would suggest trying 2L, they have a test bench page of free downloads http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html giving various tracks from full orchestra to small ensemble, try the MAGNIFICAT for example.  Hyperion do hi-res master downloads and provide a free monthly sampler http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/default.asp?vw=dc
  
 There is no end of choices really and each one brings out a different aspect of the listening experience.  Go well!


----------



## m0nster

gnomen said:


> Re a test track of classical music - a somewhat open request - I would suggest trying 2L, they have a test bench page of free downloads http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html giving various tracks from full orchestra to small ensemble, try the MAGNIFICAT for example.  Hyperion do hi-res master downloads and provide a free monthly sampler http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/default.asp?vw=dc
> 
> There is no end of choices really and each one brings out a different aspect of the listening experience.  Go well!




I know that my request was rather open and hard to answer. Thank you very much for answering anyways, it is much aopreciated. I will have a look (or better a listen) at it tonight!

Have a great day!


----------



## highendhifi

Dave improving day by day and I am indeed finding no difference between the bog standard supplied toslink cable and a chord co. spdif cable nor between the CD players. 
Dave just takes the signal and works it's magic. 91% is indeed a rare score for HFN and it confirms what we have heard  The Clearudio reference turntable also got 91% so they made a thing about digits vs analogue which of course is a little bit of a non argument. Anyway you consider it, the DAVE really is a special music-making entity. 
Looking forward to more reviews...


----------



## rkt31

I have tried some dxd sample tracks from 2l with Hugo while dxd sounded very very dynamic and open but in some track Treble was not so smooth, it had a kind of grain which I can't explain. I can't blame Hugo as with almost all other high res tracks Treble was super smooth. may be 2l is not giving all good samples or dxd has some extra Treble energy in inaudible range which makes sound slightly grain. remember Dave has high cut filter and even Rob has found it to bd effective.


----------



## rkt31

there are some native dsd sample by David Elias one track visions of her has some the very well recorded strings. strings have some if the most powerful bass impact without the slightest hint of clipping or compression. it seems the level of recording was kept high but very carefully so as to just avoid clipping .


----------



## rkt31

one can find some very very good dxd and double and even quad dsd recordings on bluecoast records but those are not free. also try nativedsd.come


----------



## paulchiu

kamil21 said:


> Dave was given a score of 91% by HiFi News. A few months back, they gave the DcS Vivaldi a lesser score of 90%... Different reviewer though.


 
  
 Also a few months back, HiFinews gave the Chord Mojo 90%.
 Reviewed by James Parker, Lab by Paul Miller


----------



## JaZZ

louisarmstrong said:


> Hey dude, saw your signature - how much better is the Dave over Hugo? I know it is hard to quantify but would appreciate if you could share your thoughts, especially for use with the HE1000. Thanks!


 
  
 This is an answer to above question in the HE1000 thread. Since it relates to DAVE, I'll post it here.
  
 The most striking differences compared to the Hugo are DAVE's smoothness and its distinct three-dimensionality and realism – a consequence of the extremely good imaging of spatial depth. It's really impressive and fascinating. The Hugo sounds flat in comparison.
  
 I've gotten used to DAVE's sonic signature since a while – and am still very pleased about it every time I listen to music. It seems to still have developed further during the last 50 hours – that makes about 450 hours now. LouisArmstrong's post today has woken me up from my sweet DAVE lethargy and forced me to do the comparison.
  
 Switching back to the Hugo wasn't a painful experience at all. I enjoyed listening to it again, a stripped-down DAVE so to speak, with its own charm. Granted, it sounds spatially flatter than DAVE, a bit more forward, too, a bit rougher all around, without sounding rough, though. But certainly less sparkle, less smoothness, a drier presentation. A trait which is actually quite a good match with some rock recordings, particularly from the sixties (Jimi Hendrix, Who, Rolling Stones...), as it conveys the open-air feeling associated with this kind of music better than DAVE with its more refined characteristic and its seemingly greater high-frequency extension. That's not to say the Hugo sounds better with those recordings, but after all it holds its own.
  
 More recent studio recordings of rock music with sophisticated sound effects sound more spectacular and a bit more realistic through DAVE. Especially low-level passages with fading tones reveal a much higher resolution when it comes to sonic subtleties, such as fading out and traces of reverberation for identifying the spatial position of the source. To my ears that's where the absence of modulation noise pays out.
  
 When it comes to Jazz and classical music, there's no competition. DAVE is that much better in rendering a believable soundstage – and a beautiful violin sound. Their overtones sound as realistically smooth – without being overly glossy in the least – as I never heard through any digital device. Orchestral tutti passages sound effortless and as transparent and clean as it gets, even more so than through the Hugo. Jazz combos up to big bands are a joy to listen to, with sparkling cymbals, forceful drum beats, a clean, swinging bass with excellent texture and brilliant brass. Not to forget electric guitars! They sound so musical and captivating. The sound of a grand piano is even clearer and more believable with DAVE, compared to the already excellent Hugo.
  
 When it comes to sheer energy and the rhythmical component within the music, the Hugo is virtually on par. But when it comes to subtleties and spatial realism, DAVE is on a level of its own.
  
 The comparison was done with my usual 16/44.1 tracks – for the sake of simplicity and since I don't own many hi-rez recordings. And more importantly: The Fiio X5 II used as a digital source can only equalize up to 48 kHz. The headphones used were the HiFiMan HE1000 (with Silver Dragon cable), the (modfied) Sennheiser HD 800 and Electrostat 1 (see signature) – all of them equalized with custom EQ presets on the X5 II.
  
 What stood out is the fact that through the electrostat the difference was significantly reduced compared to the direct-drive via headphone outputs. The same goes for the use of the Corda Symphony for the dynamic headphones when I tried it again out of curiosity. Now I don't hear any sonic deficit from the Hugo driving headphones (at least when equalized, as usual), so I blame it on the fact that an amp switched into the signal path makes the signal less accurate and more forgiving. The difference is clearly audible in direct comparison – most blatant with the Mapletree EAR+++ (my only tube amp for dynamic headphones).
  
 Over-all I rate the HiFiMan HE1000 highest when it comes to instrument timbres and sonic realism. At a classical concert attended last week (in the front row!) I closed my eyes now and then, just to compare live sound to headphone sound. It was a shock to realize how much the soundstage shrunk each time I did so, without the optical impression to complete the event. And effectively the concert sounded very close to listening to my pair of HE1000s through DAVE. Granted, that was in the front row...
  
 The HD 800 is a close second. I like it a lot for a more relaxed listening (as paradoxical as it sounds – but take into account that it is modified and equalized), as its spatial presentation is a bit more distant, making it more forgiving. This thanks to some subtle smoothing effects (caused by reflections on the steel mesh in my book) making the treble pleasantly «wet» and airy at the same time. It contributes to the quite realistic imaging and three-dimensionality, but doesn't convey depth to the same degree as the HE1000.
  
 Sometimes I reach for my electrostats with their angled drivers for ultimately relaxed listening sessions with ultimate sonic resolution (part of it is fake, though) and ultimately large soundstage. But these aren't official competitors here.


----------



## romaz

lovethatsound said:


> Hifi news out 2day
> Chord dave review
> Final Verdict
> Outstanding product


 
 A nice favorable review but typical of HiFiNews and many magazine reviews these days, the review leaves you wanting, especially for those of us who are detail hounds.  Even the lab measurements, which are potentially the most telling are very limited and it sure would help if they revealed the measurements of other DACs so the reader can compare.  As it is, each DAC manufacturer provides specs that are sometimes so unbelievably good compared to other DACs that the only way to really know how to interpret these numbers is through 3rd party comparative measurements.  
  
 Also, I can just hear the whisperings now.  "DR of only 117dB?  That's less than 20 bits of performance and  pretty low for a DAC that claims to measure so well.  My DAC has a DR of >170dB according to the manufacturer..."  Why aren't measurements for noise floor modulation or small signal linearity provided or even mentioned by other DAC manufacturers or by these magazines if these are the measurements that separate the best from the rest?  Is Rob such a trailblazer that no one else understands what is truly important with DACs or is Rob some mad scientist living in his own world? (Based on the performance of the DAVE, I choose to believe the former).
  
 If I had never heard the DAVE before or if I was on the fence between buying a DAVE and another DAC, I don't think this review did much to really make me want to go out and buy a DAVE because they seem to use similar superlatives with each of their reviews, even for products that they rate much lower on their SQ scale and then again, what kept them from giving the DAVE a much higher score?  It is often in comparison to something else that I am able to find perspective and with this review, they offer none.  Furthermore, I'm not sure I know that I can relate to this reviewer's tastes.  What amp and speakers did he use?  What does he consider his reference to be?  Did he even listen to headphones because if he did, he didn't say.  An Audeze LCD-XC is pictured and while this is a fine headphone if it was used, a closed headphone is not a good way of demonstrating the depth and air that the DAVE so splendidly portrays and to me, this is among the more difficult things that DACs do well.  To be frank, I find more useful information from forums like Head-Fi these days.  Just my 2 cents.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> A nice favorable review but typical of HiFiNews and many magazine reviews these days, the review leaves you wanting, especially for those of us who are detail hounds.  Even the lab measurements, which are potentially the most telling are very limited and it sure would help if they revealed the measurements of other DACs so the reader can compare.  As it is, each DAC manufacturer provides specs that are sometimes so unbelievably good compared to other DACs that the only way to really know how to interpret these numbers is through 3rd party comparative measurements.
> 
> Also, I can just hear the whisperings now.  "DR of only 117dB?  That's less than 20 bits of performance and  pretty low for a DAC that claims to measure so well.  My DAC has a DR of >170dB according to the manufacturer..."  Why aren't measurements for noise floor modulation or small signal linearity provided or even mentioned by other DAC manufacturers or by these magazines if these are the measurements that separate the best from the rest?  Is Rob such a trailblazer that no one else understands what is truly important with DACs or is Rob some mad scientist living in his own world? (Based on the performance of the DAVE, I choose to believe the former).
> 
> If I had never heard the DAVE before or if I was on the fence between buying a DAVE and another DAC, I don't think this review did much to really make me want to go out and buy a DAVE because they seem to use similar superlatives with each of their reviews, even for products that they rate much lower on their SQ scale and then again, what kept them from giving the DAVE a much higher score?  It is often in comparison to something else that I am able to find perspective and with this review, they offer none.  Furthermore, I'm not sure I know that I can relate to this reviewer's tastes.  What amp and speakers did he use?  What does he consider his reference to be?  Did he even listen to headphones because if he did, he didn't say.  An Audeze LCD-XC is pictured and while this is a fine headphone if it was used, a closed headphone is not a good way of demonstrating the depth and air that the DAVE so splendidly portrays and to me, this is among the more difficult things that DACs do well.  To be frank, I find more useful information from forums like Head-Fi these days.  Just my 2 cents.


 
  
 You are right Doc.  These reviews are good for their pictures and comparison with a previous model. I would nor base my purchase on a magazine review.  It will always be audition and discussion with an owner that matter to me.
 I had been waiting for 6 Moon to do a review of the Dave for a while.  Not looking like it.  They have more technical info.
 Back to HiFi News, their rating on the recent Chord DACs have been varied.  90 for Mojo, 91 now for Dave and 84 for Hugo TT.


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> I had been waiting for 6 Moon to do a review of the Dave for a while.  Not looking like it.  They have more technical info.


 
 No doubt.  No one provides as much detail as Srajan even though you have to read his reviews several times over to understand it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.  Darko also does good job because he's not afraid to offer comparisons against other products.


----------



## esimms86

romaz said:


> Don't feel you have to spend $2,800 for a Silver Spore4.  Mine was more expensive because I needed a 10 foot long cable and continuous cast UP-OCC silver at that length is unfortunately crazy expensive.  Because you won't need the more expensive XLR terminations for the DAVE and if you can get by with a more standard 5 foot long cable, it is _only_ $1,600.  If you get the Silver Complement4 which has the exact same UP-OCC grade silver and cotton primary dielectric (minus the heavy shielding), it is only $1,000.  I believe I would be equally happy with the Silver Complement4 if I didn't need a long cable length.  The biggest problem is that it could take months to get one but I would be surprised, should you get one, if you didn't find it worth every penny because both the DAVE and HE-1000 will scale beautifully with this cable.  You should only have to buy this cable once and with adapters, you should be able to use it with any headphone.




All good points but still no one's idea of inexpensive. When you start out at $2800 and then winnow it down to $1000 all of a sudden you start to feel like you got a really great deal. OK, so I ended up placing an order for the Silver Complement4 for $1000. Let the waiting begin!


----------



## Kakki

beolab said:


> Do you have a link where to buy and download the HiFi-News March issue ? =)


 
  
 https://pocketmags.com/viewmagazine.aspx?catid=1037&category=Music&subcatid=261&subcategory=Hi-Fi&title=Hi-Fi+News&titleid=477&issueid=124711
  
 Here you are!!


----------



## Kakki

I read the Hi-fi News article on Dave.
  
 It says in the end "Readers are invited to view comprehensive QC Suite test reports for the USB and S/PDIF DAC performance of Chord's DAVE DAC by navigating to www.hifinews.co.uk and clicking on the red `download` button".
  
 Anyone knows how to reach to the Dave report? When I went to hifinews' download page, I could only find reports until 2014 and couldn't find the one for Dave...


----------



## Kamil21

kakki said:


> I read the Hi-fi News article on Dave.
> 
> It says in the end "Readers are invited to view comprehensive QC Suite test reports for the USB and S/PDIF DAC performance of Chord's DAVE DAC by navigating to www.hifinews.co.uk and clicking on the red `download` button".
> 
> Anyone knows how to reach to the Dave report? When I went to hifinews' download page, I could only find reports until 2014 and couldn't find the one for Dave...


 

 This site has not been updated for over a year. I don't think Hifi News has fixed the link on their website. I wonder if they are listening???


----------



## paulchiu

kamil21 said:


> This site has not been updated for over a year. I don't think Hifi News has fixed the link on their website. I wonder if they are listening???


 
  
 Have you emailed them with contact information?


----------



## Kamil21

paulchiu said:


> Have you emailed them with contact information?


 

 Yes, I have been a subscriber for many years, and the site stopped being updated a year ago. Do you see 2016 test results?


----------



## paulchiu

kamil21 said:


> Yes, I have been a subscriber for many years, and the site stopped being updated a year ago. Do you see 2016 test results?


 
  
 You are right.  Nothing after 2014.  I just emailed them about the problem.


----------



## Rob Watts

romaz said:


> A nice favorable review but typical of HiFiNews and many magazine reviews these days, the review leaves you wanting, especially for those of us who are detail hounds.  Even the lab measurements, which are potentially the most telling are very limited and it sure would help if they revealed the measurements of other DACs so the reader can compare.  As it is, each DAC manufacturer provides specs that are sometimes so unbelievably good compared to other DACs that the only way to really know how to interpret these numbers is through 3rd party comparative measurements.
> 
> Also, I can just hear the whisperings now.  "DR of only 117dB?  That's less than 20 bits of performance and  pretty low for a DAC that claims to measure so well.  My DAC has a DR of >170dB according to the manufacturer..."  Why aren't measurements for noise floor modulation or small signal linearity provided or even mentioned by other DAC manufacturers or by these magazines if these are the measurements that separate the best from the rest?  Is Rob such a trailblazer that no one else understands what is truly important with DACs or is Rob some mad scientist living in his own world? (Based on the performance of the DAVE, I choose to believe the former).
> 
> If I had never heard the DAVE before or if I was on the fence between buying a DAVE and another DAC, I don't think this review did much to really make me want to go out and buy a DAVE because they seem to use similar superlatives with each of their reviews, even for products that they rate much lower on their SQ scale and then again, what kept them from giving the DAVE a much higher score?  It is often in comparison to something else that I am able to find perspective and with this review, they offer none.  Furthermore, I'm not sure I know that I can relate to this reviewer's tastes.  What amp and speakers did he use?  What does he consider his reference to be?  Did he even listen to headphones because if he did, he didn't say.  An Audeze LCD-XC is pictured and while this is a fine headphone if it was used, a closed headphone is not a good way of demonstrating the depth and air that the DAVE so splendidly portrays and to me, this is among the more difficult things that DACs do well.  To be frank, I find more useful information from forums like Head-Fi these days.  Just my 2 cents.


 
  
 There seems to be some confusion about dynamic range, so here is a section from Audio Precision about it:
  
Overview: Dynamic Range Dynamic Range is an expression of the ratio of the largest signal a device can pass to the device’s noise floor. “Largest signal” usually refers to a signal at a specified degree of distortion, often 1%. Signal-to-Noise Ratio and Dynamic Range are essentially the same measurement, except that the signal in SNR is arbitrary (and should be stated in the results), and the signal in Dynamic Range is at the maximum (details of which should also be stated in the results).
Dynamic Range: AES17 This measurement was first defined in a standard in Section 9.3 of AES17, under the heading “noise in the presence of signal.” A similar measurement called “dynamic range” is mentioned in IEC61606.
For digital converter measurements... We recommend using this AES17 dynamic range measurement. It is intended specifically for ADC (analog-to-digital converter) and DAC (digital-to-analog converter) dynamic range and “noise in the presence of signal” measurements, as described in Section 9.3 of AES17. A similar method is defined in IEC61606.
 This method differs from standard signal-to-noise and dynamic range measurements in that it uses a –60 dBFS stimulus during the noise measurement. This method is used for two reasons:
 ·         In both ADCs and DACs, “idle tones” can be produced within the converter in the absence of applied signal. In the method here, a low-level tone is applied to the converter to avoid production of idle channel noise. The low-level tone is removed by a notch filter before measurement.
 ·         In some DACs, the output of the device is switched off when there is no signal, providing an unrealistically quiet measurement. The low-level tone (again, notched out before measurement) defeats this muting mechanism.
 At –60 dBFS, the tone is so low that any distortion products created are below the noise floor.
  
 So that's what I do - I set the output of the DAC/amp to 1% distortion, and record the value, and that in the case of Dave is 6.8v RMS into a 300 ohm load, to simulate the effect of an easy headphone load. Now the THD and noise measurement is bandwidth limited (20 to 20kHz), and A weighted using a -60 dB FS signal, so you get an idea of the measurement in terms of the psychoacoustic effect it will have. Now I take two readings - the actual uV output that the instrument is reading (with the AP intrinsic noise of 0.9uV calculated out) as this is a useful measurement as it gives an idea as to how much hiss you will get with a ultra sensitive IEM.
  
 So with Dave it is 2.6uV of THD and noise. So against 6.8v that is -128.4dB - a bit better than the spec Chord publishes. Now Hi-Fi news is not recording dynamic range measured against the 1% output voltage, but seems to be using 2v RMS as a fixed level. So 2.6uV against 2v is -117.7 dB - hence the different numbers. They should be quoting this as THD and noise -60dB FS re 2V RMS, not dynamic range, as Dave can deliver 6.8v and is not limited to 2v RMS.
  
 Now dynamic range, once you get to a certain value, is meaningless. Now 2.6uV might be just audible with ultra sensitive IEM's as a hiss - but who will be using ultra sensitive IEM's with Dave? And what other DAC/amp offers a residual noise of better than 2.6uV and does not use transparency degrading gain switches? In practice, it will be used with normal efficiency HP, and you will never be able to hear Dave's residual noise. If you connect a power amp, the noise will be swamped by the amp's noise anyway. 
  
 If another manufacturer is quoting 170dB dynamic range then they are absolutely not measuring using AES17 - they will either be lying, or quoting the noise floor relative to maximum output via an FFT. That is not the established way of measuring DR, as the number will depend upon the FFT length. Use an infinite length then the frequency resolution converges on zero, so you would have zero noise in a zero bandwidth so giving an infinite dynamic range... Dave using a 1M point FFT has a noise floor of almost 180dB. The value of this type of measurement is that it will expose anharmonic effects at less than -180 dB.
  
 Now the really unusual thing about Dave is the residual noise (no signal) is 2.6uV, THD and noise at -60dB is still 2.6uV, and THD and noise with 2.5v OP is still 2.6uV. This completely unvarying result is remarkable for any analogue device, let alone a DAC/amp. This measurement is more telling, as it relates to sound quality, as the smallest amount of noise floor modulation is very audible, in terms of things sounding harder and less smooth.
  
 Rob.
  
 PS I think I prefer the mad scientist living in his own world narrative... It certainly feels that way sometimes.


----------



## lovethatsound

Hi Rob
When you,Chord,send a peace of equipment in to be reviewed by a magazine,don't you get to see the review before it comes out?
If hifi news has made a mistake when measuring Daves performance will you or Chord get in touch with them to let them know?


----------



## romaz

rob watts said:


> There seems to be some confusion about dynamic range, so here is a section from Audio Precision about it:
> 
> Overview: Dynamic Range Dynamic Range is an expression of the ratio of the largest signal a device can pass to the device’s noise floor. “Largest signal” usually refers to a signal at a specified degree of distortion, often 1%. Signal-to-Noise Ratio and Dynamic Range are essentially the same measurement, except that the signal in SNR is arbitrary (and should be stated in the results), and the signal in Dynamic Range is at the maximum (details of which should also be stated in the results).
> Dynamic Range: AES17 This measurement was first defined in a standard in Section 9.3 of AES17, under the heading “noise in the presence of signal.” A similar measurement called “dynamic range” is mentioned in IEC61606.
> ...


 
 Thanks, Rob.  I was hoping you would chime in and decipher some of this stuff.  I also appreciate that you have been transparent about your methodology so that it leaves no questions about how you derived your values.  For those of us who don't have your technical chops, it's easy to get confused or to buy into advertising that can be misleading.  While numbers don't tell how good something sounds, most of us can't help but look at these numbers and compare them.  Obviously, if there's no standardized way of reporting a certain value or if a company chooses to veer away from a recognized standard of reporting, then false conclusions will be drawn.


----------



## Rob Watts

lovethatsound said:


> Hi Rob
> When you,Chord,send a peace of equipment in to be reviewed by a magazine,don't you get to see the review before it comes out?
> If hifi news has made a mistake when measuring Daves performance will you or Chord get in touch with them to let them know?


 
 Sometimes, but the magazine always has the last word, so you have to be careful in any response.
  
 Hi-Fi news have not made a mistake as such as noise is expressed re 2v - and that's where the DAC is mostly going to be used. Its just confusing to readers though with different methodologies.
  
 Its why I give the number in uV too, so people can work out the noise in any situation.
  
 At least they confirmed Dave's very low distortion of 0.000007%.
  
 Rob


----------



## TheAttorney

DAVE has entered the building - again!
  
 This time with a couple of other components also on loan: PS Audio DirectStream DAC (DSD) and Sen 800S headphones.
  
 I chose the DSD because (a) the dealer reckoned its warmer sound signature was more like the CAD Mk2 that I had previously liked (in case I still didn't get on with DAVE's more neutral style), and  (b) The DSD is priced midway between DAVE and my own Yggy. The DSD has a pre-amp section, but no headphone amp, so overall I reckon it is priced within DAVE territory.
  
 I chose the 800S to check out DAVE's alleged magic on directly driving dynamic headphones. The dealer didn't have HE1000's or LCD4's, but if the 800S would get even close to my own BHSE/009's, then that would be a big bonus point to DAVE and the start of subsequent investigations.
  
 I didn't have the time, space or patience for lots of multi-way variations, so I kept Nagra CDC, BHSE/009, AQ Diamond optical and all other cables and stack placement the same. It would be a knock out round, where the loser would be directly replaced with the next contender and I would (mostly) never look back. All the components were left powered on throughout the weekend.
  
 So to Round 1:  Replace Yggy with DSD, the latter having "only" 6 hours warm up time since entering the building (but it was a burned-in demo unit). During warm up, I did a couple of sneak peek listens to the DSD, which set me up an expectation that I was going to really enjoy listening to this model. Anyway, in the main listening session later that evening, there was a clear winner between these two DACs.
  


Spoiler: And the winner is...



[size=11.0pt]Yep, you've guessed it, it was Yggy, which surprised me based on my earlier sneak peeks.[/size]
 [size=11.0pt] [/size]
 [size=11.0pt]The difference between Yggy and DSD wasn't huge, but it was consistent across all the music I played. Whilst the DSD gave a fine performance in isolation, the Yggy was that bit more transparent and dynamic, with bigger soundstage and more clearly defined sound  images. More "you are there!". The DSD in comparison warmed and softened things up a bit, and yet (despite the apparent warmth) it unexpectedly also added a touch of "digital sheen" to the upper mids/lower treble, which slightly spoiled close-miked female vocals for example.[/size]
 [size=11.0pt] [/size]
 [size=11.0pt]So, out went the DSD, and in came DAVE for a further overnight's warm up in readiness for Round 2 the next day.    [/size]


----------



## lovethatsound

theattorney said:


> DAVE has entered the building - again!
> 
> This time with a couple of other components also on loan: PS Audio DirectStream DAC (DSD) and Sen 800S headphones.
> 
> ...


Hope you enjoy the experience,but don't forget it took me over 12 weeks to run my Dave in,and that's having it on every night for about 8 hours with my hd800 before i got the sound I'm getting now.


----------



## seeteeyou

Since both Yggy and MSB Select DAC II do share the same 75Ω output impedance, could we connect a pair of (less hungry) headphones directly to Yggy's balanced outputs after adding XLR couplers by any chance?
  
 http://schiit.com/products/yggdrasil
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/613387/msb-analog-dac-review-p3/510#post_12229860
  
 It would be mighty interesting to test the transparency of Yggy's direct outputs without having to add an amp, then we might get a closer look to compare the performance between DAVE's 1/4" output versus Yggy's balanced outputs.


----------



## JaZZ

lovethatsound said:


> Hope you enjoy the experience, but don't forget it took me over 12 weeks to run my Dave in, and that's having it on every night for about 8 hours with my hd800 before i got the sound I'm getting now.


 
  
 I agree with _lovethatsound_. Burn-in makes quite a difference (to my ears).


----------



## rkt31

can't believe people here are comparing yggy with Dave while yggy has output impedance of 75ohm. there is no comparison at all. even mojo would beat yggy in many areas . I think these posts about yggy are deliberate.


----------



## highfell

rkt31 said:


> can't believe people here are comparing yggy with Dave while yggy has output impedance of 75ohm. there is no comparison at all. even mojo would beat yggy in many areas . I think these posts about yggy are deliberate.




For my edification, can you explain the "issue" concerning the output impedance of 75ohm

Thanks !


----------



## highfell

sonic77 said:


> I have a pile of LP's that I bought last year, still in their plastic wrappers, I haven't played them, that's how good the Dave is, I plan to open them up this weekend and compare the analogue records to digital Dave . I really like the sound of records and cant wait to compare to the Dave.




You got me thinking.

I had just got my old Rega Planar 2 working again this week after some thirty years. I am still in early stages of testing it out with my amplifiers.

Initially, I got out my old Sansui Receiever with its phono input an unchanged Grado F1+ cartridge into my Revolver speakers and felt that thrill again of Vinyl . The consensus from those listening was that the music sounded more guttural but also clearer, but this was listening to the Final Cut by Pink Floyd and no digital side by side comparison.

I had also just bought a cheap phono preamp to put into my Valve Amplifier,& tried a new Cartridge AT 95E and then decided to compare an identical piece of music on the turntable versus through the Hugo (not Dave).

I chose Yes Progeny (modern day Yessongs) as I have both CD and LP versions. And the winner, (consensus with my daughter) was the Hugo , which I didn't expect.

There are a couple of tracks which has Steve Howe playing acoustic guitar and with the Hugo it sounded warmer and more vinylesque.

I wonder whether I need to buy a better pre-amp and cartridge to provide a fairer comparison, but to me it shows just how good the Hugo is, and we know that isn't as good as Dave.

How did you get on ?


----------



## rkt31

75 ohm output impedance plus lack of volume control means yggy need to be connected to a integrated amp while Dave has extremely low output impedance with volume control which suits Dave to be used directly with power amp , which is where the main strength of dave lies. extremely low output impedance with volume control allows Dave to be used as headphone player too ( I won't call it headphone amp because technically it is a dac with variable output) That's why I said there is no comparison. Dave is all about transparency and shortest and direct route to listener's ears . you can't avoid adding an extra active stage in any form with yggy. even one can't use a passive pre amp with yggy without the pitfalls of passive amp as 75ohm of yggy vs few mohms Dave .


----------



## rkt31

there is no point in testing yggy with headphones connected to xlr output as in real life situations yggy can't be used like that. btw 75ohm impedance of xlr out is too high to be used even with 600ohm headphones. yggy is meant to be used with integrated amp or with pre-power combo. there is no point in repeated posting about yggy in this thread as I think Dave and yggy are two completely different products. Dave should mainly be seen as dac cum digi preamp which has the added advantage of driving most of the headphones directly with out adding any other stage in between. however Dave should be extremely good too with integrated amps or existing set ups.


----------



## romaz

rkt31 said:


> can't believe people here are comparing yggy with Dave while yggy has output impedance of 75ohm. there is no comparison at all. even mojo would beat yggy in many areas . I think these posts about yggy are deliberate.


 
 I think a good DAC should be able to stand tall against anything and given all the noise that is being made about the DAVE possibly being the best DAC out there, then it becomes fair game for any comparison, whether its against the $99 AQ Firefly or a fully loaded $130K Select II.  In the end, you can't account for another person's preference but having taken the time to carefully listen to many things and make careful comparisons, I have no insecurities about having purchased the DAVE.  In other words, no one else has to tell me how good the DAVE is.  If 100 people came to me and told me they prefer their DAC "X" to the DAVE after having made their own careful comparisons, it would not change my opinion that I have in my possession the finest headphone DAC available in the world today and with Chord's upcoming amp and ADC, I believe there is no better place to be than exactly where I am at right now.
  
 Regarding the Schiit Yggy, this is a very fine DAC, one that plays well beyond its asking price even though to my ears, it doesn't have the same level of refinement as the DAVE.  Its 75 ohm output impedance doesn't prevent it from driving headphones like an LCD-4 or HD800 and while it could drive an HE-1000, it would be a more difficult load to drive.  The bigger problem is that even if it had a digital volume control, it's analog output stage uses a buffer and a highly reactive load or a load with too low of an impedance may cause the buffer to overheat which could either damage the DAC or at the very least result in distortion.  This is the same reason that MSB claims its DACs cannot be used this way although their Select II is the exception as the Select II doesn't use an output buffer.  Lastly, as I am aware that MSB has given their blessing to having their DAC used this way via balanced outputs, it would be interesting to see the DAVE compared against the Select II this way.  DAVE vs Goliath.
  
 While this "direct to DAC" connection adds to the reason why the DAVE is so transparent, in The Attorney's case, it is a moot point given that he uses an electrostatic headphone which requires an outboard amp.  I, for one, am eager to hear his listening experience with a well-broken in DAVE paired with his BHSE/SR-009 as no one else has provided their input with this specific combination but whether he ends up preferring the Yggy or the DAVE is of no consequence to me although it would perhaps behoove those with with a BHSE/SR-009 to make their own comparisons.


----------



## esimms86

Two questions. I'm sure the 1st one has been answered somewhere in this thread but 141 pages is a lot to sift through. OK, so what is the recommended burn in time for Dave to be in full bloom? Second, has anyone sprung for a Chord Ensemble stand? I know that it works functionally and aesthetically with other Chord products and, per the HiFi News review, is described as "inert." A 4 pack of Stillpoints for 1000 USD coupled to a 15 USD bamboo cutting board from Ikea, however, may work just as well for vibration control.

Esau


----------



## longbowbbs

Hard to beat Stillpoints.....Awesome


----------



## rkt31

@romaz, you are right. that's what I wanted to say. there will only be few cases where Dave or yggy can be in comparable situations like the headphones which will require external amps anyway. otherwise both are different products. Dave is much more versatile and inherently more transparent because of the design. the concept of direct to dac connection with the use of digital volume control is not new and available in other DACs too but what makes Dave special is the ultra low output impedance and accuracy of preamp function which allows Dave to be used in so many real world situations.


----------



## paul79

Symposium Platform would be the best IMO.. So long as you are able to couple the metal chassis of the DAC directly to the metal platform. No soft bumpers in between, and you do not want to obstruct any of the vent holes of the DAC. So maybe a set of rollerblocks as footers.
  
 These things are some kind of magic, take my word for it.


----------



## TheAttorney

romaz said:


> I think a good DAC should be able to stand tall against anything..........
> 
> While this "direct to DAC" connection adds to the reason why the DAVE is so transparent, in The Attorney's case, it is a moot point given that he uses an electrostatic headphone which requires an outboard amp.  I, for one, am eager to hear his listening experience with a well-broken in DAVE paired with his BHSE/SR-009 as no one else has provided their input with this specific combination but whether he ends up preferring the Yggy or the DAVE is of no consequence to me although it would perhaps behoove those with with a BHSE/SR-009 to make their own comparisons.


 
 This whole post was well though out and balanced, as usual from romaz!
  
 Regarding Round 2 of my DAVE/Yggy comparisons to BHSE/009, unfortunately life got in the way again, so I'll reserve judgement to another weekend, but in the meantime, here's where I'm currently at:
  

A few weeks down the track, this demo DAVE is definitely sounding better than it did on the first occasion. I don't know how much of that time was spent being burned in.
It has a very natural sound - a good thing for me. Any fears I had, that ultra transparency means ultra analytical, have vanished
It's better than Yggy, but by how much I've yet to determine
On both Yggy and DAVE, the Phase setting seems to matter quite a bit at this level. Subtle-but-significant. Nothing conclusive at this stage, more of a feeling. I wish this wasn't the case, as it's another check to add to The Ritual. On the plus side, it takes me just seconds to decide which phase is best per CD, which out of a small sample is usually is the negative setting.
  
 More interesting maybe is that I couldn't resist a quick Round 3, comparing HD800S into DAVE vs BHSE/009 fed by DAVE. Much too soon to be conclusive, but the HD800 gave an really good account of itself. Not necessarily better, but at least entering the same ballpark, albeit with a different sound signature. Which means that a complete change of direction and downsizing still deserves further exploration. I'm not averse to a bit of Ritual for my hifi (coming from a vinyl background), but looking at the tiny DAVE (driven by maybe a handheld portable player) against a complete stack of big boxes - well it makes you think....
  
 One thing that surprised me though was that the HD800's sound stage was noticeably smaller than that on the 009's, especially on width. From many reports, I thought that the HD800 was meant to be the king of big sound stage?


----------



## paulchiu

theattorney said:


> This whole post was well though out and balanced, as usual from romaz!
> 
> Regarding Round 2 of my DAVE/Yggy comparisons to BHSE/009, unfortunately life got in the way again, so I'll reserve judgement to another weekend, but in the meantime, here's where I'm currently at:
> 
> ...


 
  
 On the last point, I do get a bigger sound stage when I use the HD800 with a 300B headamp, feeding with a good DAC.  Not so much with a good solid state amp.  Come o think of it, I can't remember ever feeding the SR009 with a solid state amp, so comparison in SS realm is difficult.  I am curious how Dave into my 300B amps will sound with the HD800 and others.  In the imaging part.


----------



## rkt31

i think many a times chord dacs have been said to have constricted soundstage. even i feel it when i switch t other dap, but in reality the impressions is due to the accuracy of soundstage. yesterday night i was listening to some bollywood hindi songs and some audiophile stuff like xrcd of  Luke and the Locomotives - Robert Lucas. what i found in mojo ,the ability to place the instruments correctly in the stage, vocals are at dead center and highly focused ( if recorded so) and this was with   beyer dt880, 600ohm. i think the impression of less soundstage width comes due to the depth and layers by chord dacs. while listening with mojo you just enjoy the music without caring about the soundstage width etc, that's is what chord dacs are about.


----------



## paulchiu

Taking quick survery
  
 Silver or black Dave?
 Stand?
  
 Thanks


----------



## esimms86

Silver, but then I also have a silver original Blue Hawaii (plus my dealer had the silver model in stock).


----------



## lovethatsound

paulchiu said:


> Taking quick survery
> 
> Silver or black Dave?
> Stand?
> ...


black


----------



## ecwl

Black, to match my black PVR, black Oppo BDP-103, black amplifier, black plasma TV, black Sennheiser HD650 and my batmobile...
 No stand because my shelf is too short to have the DAVE standing on the shelf.


----------



## JaZZ

Black (next to a Stax SRM-727 II with silver front), with a silver FiiO X5 II wrapped into a black silicon sleeve on top of it.


----------



## rgs9200m

Only half in jest, I think Chord's problem in selling the DAVE is that the Hugo TT is just too darn good. My TT is something I just can't turn away from, a real music drug I use too far past the time I should go to sleep at night. 
 So while I'm sure the Dave would be better if I ever get around to hearing it, I'm just too emotionally attached to my TT to move on from it.


----------



## paulchiu

ecwl said:


> Black, to match my black PVR, black Oppo BDP-103, black amplifier, black plasma TV, black Sennheiser HD650 and my batmobile...
> No stand because my shelf is too short to have the DAVE standing on the shelf.


 
  
 love to see the batmobile.


----------



## romaz

More on the DAVE from the man himself:
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhfxDo3JoBc&feature=youtu.be&t=811


----------



## lovethatsound

romaz said:


> More on the DAVE from the man himself:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhfxDo3JoBc&feature=youtu.be&t=811


Nice one romaz
It's telling us Dave owners what we all ready know and at the same time doing a better job than the hifi magazine's reviews


----------



## Christer

lovethatsound said:


> Nice one romaz
> It's telling us Dave owners what we all ready know and at the same time doing a better job than the hifi magazine's reviews


 

 Hmm, when I click the link it takes me to a canjam preview  which seems to be about  a lot of  other things plus a couple of minutes of  a guy talking about Chord DACs?
 I fail to find anything  on DAVE there,from Rob Watts himself ?
 Ok I  only sampled the almost one hour of talk, talk, talk and even  more talk in the video.
 Did I miss something important?


----------



## m0nster

christer said:


> Hmm, when I click the link it takes me to a canjam preview  which seems to be about  a lot of  other things plus a couple of minutes of  a guy talking about Chord DACs?
> I fail to find anything  on DAVE there,from Rob Watts himself ?
> Ok I  only sampled the almost one hour of talk, talk, talk and even  more talk in the video.
> Did I miss something important?




You missed that this guy is Jude  And the part about the Shangri-La (or whatever the name is) and then there is the MrSpeakers electrostat. Other than that I think Jude says more or less the exact same thing he said before on the CanJam Singapore video... So I am probably missing something too.


----------



## lovethatsound

christer said:


> Hmm, when I click the link it takes me to a canjam preview  which seems to be about  a lot of  other things plus a couple of minutes of  a guy talking about Chord DACs?
> I fail to find anything  on DAVE there,from Rob Watts himself ?
> Ok I  only sampled the almost one hour of talk, talk, talk and even  more talk in the video.
> Did I miss something important?


maybe you've missed what he said in them few minutes.


----------



## Sunya

Rob, in the HFN lab report they say in Preamp mode Dave max output is 12V, while in fixed DAC mode it's 6V. Could you tell the reason for the aditional 6dB gain in Preamp mode? Isn't this too hot an output considering most amps sensitivities are around 1-2V and the extra gain will go wasted in digital attenuation?


----------



## romaz

christer said:


> Hmm, when I click the link it takes me to a canjam preview  which seems to be about  a lot of  other things plus a couple of minutes of  a guy talking about Chord DACs?
> I fail to find anything  on DAVE there,from Rob Watts himself ?
> Ok I  only sampled the almost one hour of talk, talk, talk and even  more talk in the video.
> Did I miss something important?


 
 Yes, I was referring to Jude, founder of Head-Fi.  The part on the DAVE was only a few minutes.
  
 If you want to hear from Rob, here's one:
  
 https://www.facebook.com/chordelectronics/videos


----------



## Rob Watts

sunya said:


> Rob, in the HFN lab report they say in Preamp mode Dave max output is 12V, while in fixed DAC mode it's 6V. Could you tell the reason for the aditional 6dB gain in Preamp mode? Isn't this too hot an output considering most amps sensitivities are around 1-2V and the extra gain will go wasted in digital attenuation?


 
 The 12v OP is via the balanced connection, and is with the volume set to +3dB. We need the extra voltage for use with headphones, if the fixed level is too high, merely reduce the volume setting. The digital path including the noise shapers are better than 350dB accurate, so don't worry about the volume control changing sound quality - it doesn't.
  
 You would definitely have worse transparency if I had  fitted analogue gain adjustment.
  
 Rob


----------



## Sunya

rob watts said:


> The 12v OP is via the balanced connection, and is with the volume set to +3dB. We need the extra voltage for use with headphones, if the fixed level is too high, merely reduce the volume setting. The digital path including the noise shapers are better than 350dB accurate, so don't worry about the volume control changing sound quality - it doesn't.
> 
> You would definitely have worse transparency if I had  fitted analogue gain adjustment.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Oh, I thought you said the balanced outs didn't have enough current to drive headphones directly and you didn't recommended it. Seems I'm not up-to-date with latest modifications.


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes balanced OP is not for driving headphones, the current is too low and impedance too high.
  
 Rob


----------



## highendhifi

longbowbbs said:


> Hard to beat Stillpoints.....Awesome



Are they worth springing for? Was thinking of these or a townshend seismic stand/platform


----------



## highendhifi

paulchiu said:


> Taking quick survery
> 
> Silver or black Dave?
> Stand?
> ...




Black and no stand for me


----------



## paulchiu

Saw this on FLICKR


----------



## Jiffi32

paulchiu said:


> Saw this on FLICKR


 

 Best photo of DAVE I've seen in black so far!!


----------



## isquirrel

paulchiu said:


> Saw this on FLICKR


 
 Best looking DAVE photo I have seen. I think the stand is a must have, didn't like the stand in Silver, 1st time I have seen it in Black. @romaz - that has you name on it


----------



## Christer

rkt31 said:


> I have tried some dxd sample tracks from 2l with Hugo while dxd sounded very very dynamic and open but in some track Treble was not so smooth, it had a kind of grain which I can't explain. I can't blame Hugo as with almost all other high res tracks Treble was super smooth. may be 2l is not giving all good samples or dxd has some extra Treble energy in inaudible range which makes sound slightly grain. remember Dave has high cut filter and even Rob has found it to bd effective.


 

 You raise an interesting point there rkt31.
 The DXD albums from 2L can sound  the way you describe them via quite a few  DACs and headphones in my experience too. But via Hugo and Mojo and DAVE and HE 1000 I did not experience  problems with string sound that  I still do via my HD800 and Hugo, HD800 having the  known treble peak which could be part of the problem.
 I don't know if they still do so, but I remember being told  at  some sessions that  sometimes  they added a 2dB presence level rise . But I can't remember where they raised the treble by 2dB
 Now a  2dB raise is quite a lot.
 Play two otherwise identical recordings with a general 2dB difference in level  and the difference is obvious via high quality equipment, to me at least.
 Or maybe I am just  supersensitive.
 I  actually had to alert  another label's mastering engineer to the fact that he had sent me two supposedly identical level  DSD tracks .
 One track was  the raw file and the other  edited.
 But to me they sounded very different indeed.
 After I had alerted him to the big difference I heard, he admitted having accidentally set a 2dB  general level difference from one to the other.
 With levels correctly set I still heard a clear advantage from  the unedited raw DSD 64 file compared to edited.
 Less noise and more transparent.
 Regarding  DAVE and the high cut filter I wonder where the "cut" starts?
 And how it might influence the audible spectrum?
 The 2L DXD masterfiles I listened to via DAVE sounded sublime. But maybe a wee,wee bit softer and smoother than I remember  the strings of Trondheimsolistene as I heard them live.
 There was definitely no harshness or edge or grain via Dave and HE 1000 to my ears.
 But good as it undoubtedly is, it is still not the real thing.
 I have said so before and I say so again no HIFI I have heard  can really compete with the extremely rich sound of an orchestra in a real hall.
 But yes I would love to try Rob Watt's upcoming ADC with simple miking recording a majestic work like Shostakovich's 11th symphony that I have
 just  enjoyed at rehearsals and tonight and tomorrow at concerts here in KL.
 Maybe it will bring me one  more step closer to the real thing.
 What headphones did you connect to your Hugo?


----------



## rkt31

@Christer, I used shure srh940 and beyerdynamic dt880 both of which have flat response . I also listened on kef r300 bookshelf which are warmer still some 2L sample recordings sounded bright. I will try to find the number of that sample. but yes not all 2L samples sounded bright.


----------



## longbowbbs

highendhifi said:


> longbowbbs said:
> 
> 
> > Hard to beat Stillpoints.....Awesome
> ...


 
 They do make a positive difference. However, the benefits of these types of accessories are more pronounced with higher end more resolving gear. So you will find they add more value to higher quality systems.


----------



## esimms86

Stillpoints made a dramatic difference in my speaker based living room system. I invested in 12 of them in all, placed under my integrated amp, power conditioner and DAC, respectively. They cost me 3000 USD in total, plus 3 IKEA bamboo cutting boards to couple them to at 15 USD apiece. 

I don't have any immediate plans to put them under DAVE(currently on order but not yet shipped) as I first need to give my wallet a chance to rest!


----------



## esimms86

This may fall under the province of "Judespeak," but in both recent CanJam videos Jude extols the virtues of listening to DAVE coupled with the Hifiman Shangri La. After reading Romaz's posts and also considering that the Shangri La headphone technology was trickled down to make the HE1000, I wonder if the DAVE/HE1000 combo (especially with DHC aftermarket cables) might actually equal or be better than DAVE mated to Shangri La. All speculation, of course, at this point since very, very few people have had access to both DAC/headphone systems.


----------



## Christer

esimms86 said:


> This may fall under the province of "Judespeak," but in both recent CanJam videos Jude extols the virtues of listening to DAVE coupled with the Hifiman Shangri La. After reading Romaz's posts and also considering that the Shangri La headphone technology was trickled down to make the HE1000, I wonder if the DAVE/HE1000 combo (especially with DHC aftermarket cables) might actually equal or be better than DAVE mated to Shangri La. All speculation, of course, at this point since very, very few people have had access to both DAC/headphone systems.


 

 Having heard the Dave HE1000 combo I am very tempted to get both.
 Although IMO and for my  economy, both are  already  very overpriced.
 A fifty percent discount  on both and I would buy them tomorrow.
 But absolutely  no way would I pay the  insultingly ridiculous rip off price asked for the Shangri La!
 I  still suspect that  my old Jecklin Floats once refurbished and connected to a new PSU would  compete very well with both the  already overpriced HE1000 and   the Shangri La and Sennheiser's new electrostat.
 There are things like spatial retrieval ,decay and acoustic cues that even my HD 800 at less than half price of the HE1000 imho do slightly better.
 In  High End Audio there  is often  no real connection between price and performance.
 But there seem to be many   "audiophiles" who   "listen with their wallets". And equally often it seems judging by the looks of some stratospherically priced and extravagantly designed things in  High End Audio with their eyes, instead of their ears"!
 No offence intended,by the way, DAVE looks a bit like a  little Silvery Submarine to me. But I could live with that  since I mainly listen to music with my eyes closed anyway. "We all live in a...."
 I auditioned the first  Sennheiser Orpheus and the difference between it and  the Staxes and my Jecklin Floats was minute with SOTA  direct cut LPs in those days.
 I didn't even bother with CDs in a high end context in those days. They  sounded too bad to even consider.
 One of the most interesting quotes here recently for me was when someone here hinted that  a certain  company has realised that "audiophiles can't handle the truth", therefore adding a bit of distortion and beefing up the bass a bit to suit those who don't have a reference to  live acoustic music.
 That said, I am very tempted to  get the DAVE/ HE1000 combo. 
 They were really that good.


----------



## m0nster

I must admit that I do care what a given product looks like. I love how DAVE looks for example! That does not mean that I think looks are more important than how it sounds - not at all! But the audio gear is going to end up in my living room when I buy it, so it might as well look decent while still sounding incredibly good! Even better is when it's well-built and can take a tank driving over it - who knows what's going to happen next 
Above all I am thankful for audio engineers that make the awesome sound happen. But I thank all the people that make the products look so good too - I think it's an important part.

Now I am ready for an audiophil bashing


----------



## Christer

m0nster said:


> I must admit that I do care what a given product looks like. I love how DAVE looks for example! That does not mean that I think looks are more important than how it sounds - not at all! But the audio gear is going to end up in my living room when I buy it, so it might as well look decent while still sounding incredibly good! Even better is when it's well-built and can take a tank driving over it - who knows what's going to happen next
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Not to worry chicken curry, I also own some pretty eye-catching equipment.
 My 500 watts per channel power pre-power amp combo  weigh in at roughly  60 pounds each, and look like tanks emitting a blueish eerie light on the floor. And my even  bigger and heavier electrostatic speakers stand taller than myself.
 My HI FI and bookshelves full of  LPs dominate my living room.Most of my digitally recorded music is on smallish hardrives plus a couple of hundred SACDs and some DVDs and blurays.
 Such are the choices I make when SQ and  music matter most.
 But I did not buy either for their looks, nor new. I waited until  "audiophiles" with more money than ears  put both up for sale second hand at less than half price from  new.
 For those with time  there are some decent  bargains to be made in the second hand High End  market.
 Provided you don't neeed the latest model of everything.


----------



## seeteeyou

romaz said:


> I think a good DAC should be able to stand tall against anything and given all the noise that is being made about the DAVE possibly being the best DAC out there, then it becomes fair game for any comparison, whether its against the $99 AQ Firefly or a fully loaded $130K Select II.  In the end, you can't account for another person's preference but having taken the time to carefully listen to many things and make careful comparisons, I have no insecurities about having purchased the DAVE.  In other words, no one else has to tell me how good the DAVE is.  If 100 people came to me and told me they prefer their DAC "X" to the DAVE after having made their own careful comparisons, it would not change my opinion that I have in my possession the finest headphone DAC available in the world today and with Chord's upcoming amp and ADC, I believe there is no better place to be than exactly where I am at right now.
> 
> Regarding the Schiit Yggy, this is a very fine DAC, one that plays well beyond its asking price even though to my ears, it doesn't have the same level of refinement as the DAVE.  Its 75 ohm output impedance doesn't prevent it from driving headphones like an LCD-4 or HD800 and while it could drive an HE-1000, it would be a more difficult load to drive.  The bigger problem is that even if it had a digital volume control, it's analog output stage uses a buffer and a highly reactive load or a load with too low of an impedance may cause the buffer to overheat which could either damage the DAC or at the very least result in distortion.  This is the same reason that MSB claims its DACs cannot be used this way although their Select II is the exception as the Select II doesn't use an output buffer.  Lastly, as I am aware that MSB has given their blessing to having their DAC used this way via balanced outputs, it would be interesting to see the DAVE compared against the Select II this way.  DAVE vs Goliath.
> 
> While this "direct to DAC" connection adds to the reason why the DAVE is so transparent, in The Attorney's case, it is a moot point given that he uses an electrostatic headphone which requires an outboard amp.  I, for one, am eager to hear his listening experience with a well-broken in DAVE paired with his BHSE/SR-009 as no one else has provided their input with this specific combination but whether he ends up preferring the Yggy or the DAVE is of no consequence to me although it would perhaps behoove those with with a BHSE/SR-009 to make their own comparisons.


 
  
 Thanks Roy for your clarification and we could find plenty of products with 75Ω output impedance in the 1.5K/2K/2.5K price range
  
 http://www.rme-audio.de/download/hdspemadi_e.pdf#page=65
 http://www.google.com/shopping/product/12766349912290994303
  
 http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/hdspe_madi_fx.php
 http://www.rme-audio.de/download/hdspemadifx_e.pdf#page=79
 http://www.google.com/shopping/product/4385090402755038361
 http://www.google.com/shopping/product/17776905699464486366
  
 http://www.merging.com/products/networked-audio/specifications
 http://www.merging.com/uploads/assets/Installers/Horus_Hapi_3.0.70_Firmware/Hapi_User_Manual_rev09.pdf#page=14
 http://www.google.com/shopping/product/10376367454183912509
  
  
 6.3-mm output of MADI FX could easily compete with MSB Diamond IV and that's been verified by audiophiles in both Hong Kong and Taiwan already, we could even get that from Estonia for 1439.00 €
  
 http://www.hkepc.com/forum/viewthread.php?fid=25&tid=2017783&ordertype=0&page=1#pid30830568
 http://www.myav.com.tw/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=349951&perpage=1&pagenumber=7403
 http://shop.pillipood.ee/0502040000/0/readmore/161179/
  
 Properly implemented CS4398 DAC chip with the superior processing of Spartan-6 FPGA should work well with RME's SteadyClock
  
 http://www.rme-audio.de/images/products/products_madi_fx_1b.jpg
  
 HAPI is another interesting choice since it's connected via Ethernet instead of other interfaces, for me personally the most intriguing part would be its headphone output since that's working without having to add their optional DAC module
  
 https://www.gearslutz.com/board/10825473-post194.html
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/new-digital-analogue-converter-merging-technologies-home-audio-market-22967/index6.html#post424026
  
 And then the performance of MADI FX might not be that surprising thanks to its PCI Express interface, its simplicity could be such an advantage when compared to USB etc. Recently there were reports from multiple countries and they seemed to agree that running an optimized version of Windows from a RAM drive would result in fantastic results
  
 http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=3364.0
 http://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3171
 http://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3267
 http://www.aktives-hoeren.de/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=5848
 http://www.myav.com.tw/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=20473423
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/running-win-os-purely-ram-27402/
  
 So there we have it, there's something relatively affordable out there while we're still saving up for DAVE. Granted it might not be everyone since not all of us are willing to tinker with Windows to squeeze every last drop of performance from a setup like that.


----------



## AndrewOld

Can anyone who has a DAVE tell me whether it is possible to directly select an input on the remote, or do you have to cycle through all the inputs using the arrow keys. The downloadable DAVE manual only mentions the latter.
  
 Also, can you directly control the volume on DAVE via USB - Audirvana has an option to control the volume on a DAC via USB if the DAC supports that, which could be useful.
  
 Thanks.!


----------



## lovethatsound

andrewold said:


> Can anyone who has a DAVE tell me whether it is possible to directly select an input on the remote, or do you have to cycle through all the inputs using the arrow keys. The downloadable DAVE manual only mentions the latter.
> 
> Also, can you directly control the volume on DAVE via USB - Audirvana has an option to control the volume on a DAC via USB if the DAC supports that, which could be useful.
> 
> Thanks.!


Hi m8
Yes you can select the inputs using the remote controlDon't know about Audirvana
PS You have to use the arrows on the chord remote control to change the input


----------



## Mython

christer said:


> For those with time  there are some decent  bargains to be made in the second hand High End  market.


 
  
  
 And some would say also in the *DIY* High End market:
  
 http://holtonprecisionaudio.com/
  
 http://www.linkwitzlab.com/
  
  
 If I had the cash right now, I'd have a DAVE feeding HPA 500w monoblocks (using analogue active crossovers) into Linkwitz LX521.4 dipole loudspeakers.
  
 I can dream...
  
 .


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## drdkey

Good morning 
 I am new to the forum and my journey to the Chord DAVE began with looking for a music server to replace my Mac mini music server to feed my Devialet 250 as I wanted to hear more from the music consistently. I came in contact with a man who told me I may want to look at the process differently. He has a vast experience listening to high end DAC's and music servers. He heard the DAVE and purchased it and said that it totally changed his approach to music.  He sold off his other high end audiophile equipment as he felt it was the most "real "presentation of music that he had ever heard from a DAC. 
 I live in the US and my nearest Chord dealer is 400 miles away. I have no experience with headphone listening but after reading this forum and having discussions with the person that I mentioned, I think this will be a new area for me to venture into in the future. My current system is the Devialet 250 with Magico V2 speakers. Has anyone compared the DAVE to the Devialet? This clearly would be a big change for me since the Devialet is an all in one setup. I am very excited to go hear the DAVE and more than willing to make the 400 mile trip.  I would appreciate any insight about the DAVE utilized in a non headphone setup as I enjoy having friends over to listen to music.
 Best regards


----------



## ecwl

andrewold said:


> Can anyone who has a DAVE tell me whether it is possible to directly select an input on the remote, or do you have to cycle through all the inputs using the arrow keys. The downloadable DAVE manual only mentions the latter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 


Hmmm... I have to disagree with lovethatsound on this one. There is no direct input select as far as I can figure out off the Chord Remote for DAVE. Meaning that you can't click a button so that the DAVE is set to USB input and another button and the DAVE is set to Optical 2 input. You have to use the left-right buttons to cycle through all the inputs. I just tried it again with the Chord remote. So unless lovethatsound has a special trick, I'd love to know. This is a minor nuisance because it means I can't program the input select into my Logitech Harmony remote easily. But I don't mind cycling manually through for the correct input.

As for direct volume control via USB, I'm not aware of any. But Rob Watts may have more to say on this one. I have to admit, I just never tried in JRiver. But in my experience, for USB DACs that allow for direct volume control, like my soon-to-be-former Audioquest Dragonfly, the manual is quite explicit about this feature.


----------



## ecwl

drdkey said:


> Good morning
> 
> 
> I am new to the forum and my journey to the Chord DAVE began with looking for a music server to replace my Mac mini music server to feed my Devialet 250 as I wanted to hear more from the music consistently. I came in contact with a man who told me I may want to look at the process differently. He has a vast experience listening to high end DAC's and music servers. He heard the DAVE and purchased it and said that it totally changed his approach to music.  He sold off his other high end audiophile equipment as he felt it was the most "real "presentation of music that he had ever heard from a DAC.
> ...



 


I think upgrading to the Chord DAVE would bring you to a completely different sonic level as it well should considering the price. I have listened to various Devialet Experts prior to committing to Chord DAVE and there are good reasons for choosing DAVE. But there are a lot of practical aspects to consider. First, you'll have to get a new power amplifier. There will be more connections and it'll take up more space. Your current setup would only be about the same if you already have a music renderer hooked up to your Devialet 250. Because DAVE is source-insensitive, even if you have a bad computer source, say a noisy Mac Mini, it wouldn't matter so you don't have to upgrade to anything ultra-high-end like Aurender. But if you're using Devialet Air, you will have to get a wireless streamer to hook up to the Chord DAVE. And you didn't mention whether you're using SAM with your Magico V2 as that functionality would be gone if you stop using Devialet. Unless you want to use computerized DSP on your Mac Mini to mimick the SAM functionality which would require more complicated setup. Ultimately, Devialet is a high-end all-in-one product whereas Chord DAVE is a state-of-the-art DAC. It is not ultra-complicated to setup a clean DAVE system but it's not going to be as simple as Devialet.


----------



## AuJames

There has been lots of talk about Dynamic Range and how one DAC is not comparable to another because of misleading Data but I think I can compare two DACs that seem to come up again and again in this thread based off data published by the manufacturer or designer. We can read between the lines and get a real apples to apples comparison of Dynamic range!

1st up the Chord DAVE, per Rob Watts output is 6V RMS maximum 2.6uV noise 20 KHz bandwidth.

2nd up MSB Select II, digging trough the data-sheet and measurements posted on their site maximum output is 3.5V RMS maximum but noise is elusive, not directly specced. However we can make a few assumptions that looking at the data will get us close. The output is claimed to come directly from the DACs with no buffers or gain, the output is 75 Ohms, The output of there FFT does not seem to have any excess noise so the Thermal noise of 75 Ohms probably dominates the output. Using this calculator (http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Thermal-Noise-Calculator.phtml) I plugged in 35 C (a reasonable operating temperature) 20,000 Hz bandwidth and 75 Ohms, the result is 0.168 uV.

Now for our comparison. First we need to normalize the values because the DAVE has a greater maximum output than the Select II. So 3.5 V / 6.0 V * 2.6 uV = 1.51 uV.
So the normalized noise of the DAVE is 1.51 uV and the Select II is 0.168 uV. Now for the interesting part, it is easy to decrease the noise of a signal source by paralleling multiple signal sources. To decrease the source noise by 6.02 dB (half) you must parallel 4 sources. So convert the difference to dB we have 20 log(1.51 uV / 0.168 uV) = 19 dB now 19 dB / 6.02 dB = 3.16, so it will take 4 ^ 3.16 = 79 DAVE DACs to equal one Select II.

So, it appears it will take 79 Chord DAVEs to reach the dynamic range of 1 Select II, not a small difference.


----------



## esimms86

m0nster said:


> I must admit that I do care what a given product looks like. I love how DAVE looks for example! That does not mean that I think looks are more important than how it sounds - not at all! But the audio gear is going to end up in my living room when I buy it, so it might as well look decent while still sounding incredibly good! Even better is when it's well-built and can take a tank driving over it - who knows what's going to happen next
> Above all I am thankful for audio engineers that make the awesome sound happen. But I thank all the people that make the products look so good too - I think it's an important part.
> 
> Now I am ready for an audiophil bashing




Well, yes, looks matter, especially when you share your living space with your significant other. Like many people, I have an attraction to McIntosh equipment with its blue lit large VU meters and, push comes to shove, I have to say their products look incredibly cool. Never owned any, however, and don't ever expect to. Most audio equipment, on the other hand, reside in your basic nondescript black boxes. Chord, of course, has their own idiosyncratic aesthetic that some love, some have a distaste for, and others consider to be "2qute." To my way of thinking, almost anything is tolerable in a listening room except for unsightly loudspeakers(again, in the eyes of the beholder).


----------



## AndrewOld

ecwl said:


> andrewold said:
> 
> 
> > Can anyone who has a DAVE tell me whether it is possible to directly select an input on the remote, or do you have to cycle through all the inputs using the arrow keys. The downloadable DAVE manual only mentions the latter.
> ...


 

 Thanks. Seems a bit annoying! Won't stop me buying one, but can't understand the problem since the remote for my TT lets you select an input directly using the numeric keys. Would have been nicer if they were labelled though.. Any chance you could try the numeric keys on your DAVE keypad? The downloadable manual says there is a manual for the DAVE remote with the product, but it isn't downloadable .. hence my questions. Also, is the DAVE remote just a plasticky multi-remote kinda thing? Or is it nice metal?


----------



## Rob Watts

Dave is unique in that there is no other control electronics apart from the FPGA powered by Dave's PSU. This meant I could reduce RF noise levels as another processor on a different clock is eliminated; but the downside is that I have to code for everything (including the display drivers too, the character generation and display interface is all done by the FPGA). I had planned to use the numbers from the remote, but I simply ran out of time.
  
 Rob


----------



## lovethatsound

ecwl said:


> andrewold said:
> 
> 
> > Can anyone who has a DAVE tell me whether it is possible to directly select an input on the remote, or do you have to cycle through all the inputs using the arrow keys. The downloadable DAVE manual only mentions the latter.
> ...


You are right,i read his question wrong,many apologies.You have to use the arrows on the chord remote control.


----------



## AuJames

There has been lots of talk about Dynamic Range and how one DAC is not comparable to another because of misleading Data but I think I can compare two DACs that seem to come up again and again in this thread based off data published by the manufacturer or designer. We can read between the lines and get a real apples to apples comparison of Dynamic range!

1st up the Chord DAVE, per Rob Watts output is 6.8V RMS maximum 2.6uV noise 20 KHz bandwidth.

2nd up MSB Select II, digging trough the data-sheet and measurements posted on their site maximum output is 3.5V RMS maximum but noise is elusive, not directly specced. However we can make a few assumptions that looking at the data will get us close. The output is claimed to come directly from the DACs with no buffers or gain, the output is 75 Ohms, The output of their FFT does not seem to have any excess noise and is close to what I would expect to see from a 75 Ohm thermal noise source. The thermal noise of 75 Ohms probably dominates the output. Using the thermal noise calculator from Daycounter Inc. (google search for it) plugged in 35 C (a reasonable operating temperature) 20,000 Hz bandwidth and 75 Ohms, the result is 0.168 uV.

Now for our comparison. First we need to normalize the values because the DAVE has a greater maximum output than the Select II. So 3.5 V / 6.8 V * 2.6 uV = 1.34 uV.
So the normalized noise of the DAVE is 1.34 uV and the Select II is 0.168 uV. Now for the interesting part, it is easy to decrease the noise of a signal source by paralleling multiple signal sources. To decrease the source noise by 6.02 dB (half) you must parallel 4 sources. So convert the difference to dB we have 20 log(1.34 uV / 0.168 uV) = 18 dB now 18 dB / 6.02 dB = 3, so it will take 4 ^ 3 = 64 DAVE DACs to equal one Select II.

So, it appears it will take 64 Chord DAVEs to reach the dynamic range of 1 Select II, not a small difference.


----------



## smial1966

Perhaps you'd kindly explain to a non technically inclined audiophile what exactly your post purports to prove or infer?!? 




aujames said:


> There has been lots of talk about Dynamic Range and how one DAC is not comparable to another because of misleading Data but I think I can compare two DACs that seem to come up again and again in this thread based off data published by the manufacturer or designer. We can read between the lines and get a real apples to apples comparison of Dynamic range!
> 
> 1st up the Chord DAVE, per Rob Watts output is 6.8V RMS maximum 2.6uV noise 20 KHz bandwidth.
> 
> ...


----------



## ecwl

I see AuJames is new to Head-Fi. Since he started opening the can of worms, I'm going to do a deep dive and speak my opinion as a hobbyist. I think it's safe to say that most of us do not know what measurement parameters affect sonic qualities of high-end DACs. Even if we assume AuJames's theoretical computations of dynamic range is correct for MSB Select II and is better than Chord DAVE, there are other factors. Stereophile has published measurements of MSB Analog DAC, DAC IV and Chord Mojo & Hugo TT. Does the fact that MSB DACs do not have flat frequency responses up to the Nyquist frequency for 44kHz music matter? Does the fact that the left-right channels for the MSB DACs on undithered 1kHz sine wave has a voltage difference of 15-50uV matter? Do the MSB DACs second/third and higher harmonics for 50Hz sine wave being higher at -90dB compared to -110dB matter?  Does the MSB DACs HF intermodulation noise (19kHz+20kHz) matter?
  
 Unfortunately, for most hobbyist like us, we cannot have a DAC where we just turn these distortions (including dynamic range) on and off and listen to compare which parameters matter and which don't. Implied by Rob Watts in his previous comments in this forum, some of the distortion measurements that I described about MSB DACs on the Stereophile measurements are basically inherent in all ladder DAC designs because the limitations is because of ladder DACs themselves, not because of what MSB is or is not doing.
  
 I've listened to Analog DAC which I didn't like but I thought the MSB DAC IV sounds great. But I definitely like the Chord DAVE better. Is it a matter of preference? Or are there some measurement parameters I prefer and others I don't care about?
  
 Ultimately, since Rob Watts is pretty much one of the few people who can actually manipulate some of these measurement parameters and compare their impacts. So I think people on this forum who likes Chord DAVE trusts his comments that the measurement parameters he optimizes for are the ones that improves sound quality the most. Whether others agree is really up to themselves. Ultimately, we put our money where our mouth is. If we like the sound of a DAC, we should buy it.


----------



## romaz

aujames said:


> There has been lots of talk about Dynamic Range and how one DAC is not comparable to another because of misleading Data but I think I can compare two DACs that seem to come up again and again in this thread based off data published by the manufacturer or designer. We can read between the lines and get a real apples to apples comparison of Dynamic range!
> 
> 1st up the Chord DAVE, per Rob Watts output is 6.8V RMS maximum 2.6uV noise 20 KHz bandwidth.
> 
> ...




Interesting points, but even if the assumptions are accurate and the calculations are true, to what sonic relevance? What happens to all of this DR performance once you connect this DAC to even the finest amplifier? 

Rob has already indicated he could have targeted a higher DR but that there was no point to do so. Obviously, his targets with the DAVE were different and it is interesting to see how certain parameters are valued so highly by one DAC manufacturer and much less so by another.


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Dave is unique in that there is no other control electronics apart from the FPGA powered by Dave's PSU. This meant I could reduce RF noise levels as another processor on a different clock is eliminated; but the downside is that I have to code for everything (including the display drivers too, the character generation and display interface is all done by the FPGA). I had planned to use the numbers from the remote, but I simply ran out of time.
> 
> Rob




When we are at the subject i have just one convenient question if there is a way to switch of headphone sense, or switch between 6,3mm outlet and RCA/XLR outlets insted of pull out the headphone adapter ?


----------



## isquirrel

I know MSB had to construct their own measuring tools as the commercial ones were not able to measure to the levels required. A lot of talk on here re the DAVE vs the Select, at the end of the day manufacturers can argue all they want about measurements, me (and I own a Select) I couldn't care less how it measures, only thing I am interested in is how the damn thing sounds. I have noticed that I am listening to a LOT more music nowadays than I have been over the past 12 months. Oh and I think it looks sexy too, so does the DAVE in Black with its stand, very nice


----------



## isquirrel

romaz said:


> Interesting points, but even if the assumptions are accurate and the calculations are true, to what sonic relevance? What happens to all of this DR performance once you connect this DAC to even the finest amplifier?
> 
> Rob has already indicated he could have targeted a higher DR but that there was no point to do so. Obviously, his targets with the DAVE were different and it is interesting to see how certain parameters are valued so highly by one DAC manufacturer and much less so by another.


 

 Makes me feel so much better, I mean I (shock horror) listen to my Select through my beloved valve amp, probably cutting the DR in half at least, who cares. I love the sound of valves !


----------



## romaz

isquirrel said:


> Makes me feel so much better, I mean I (shock horror) listen to my Select through my beloved valve amp, probably cutting the DR in half at least, who cares. I love the sound of valves !


 
 Point well taken and it supports Rob's assertion that DR beyond a certain number is pointless because ultimately, if you're going to connect an amp, you will be limited by the amp's DR and somehow, because of how it's advertised, the DR or ENOB of a DAC is made to seem more relevant than it is.
  
 Rob's recent comments:
  
 The DR of the DAVE "is actually a bit better than 127, but who cares? It does not matter. Moreover, I could have gone for a better number, but decided the compromises involved were not worth the risk of actually making the sound worse just to play a meaningless numbers game."
  
"...dynamic range, once you get to a certain value, is meaningless...If you connect a power amp, the noise will be swamped by the amp's noise anyway."


----------



## romaz

isquirrel said:


> I know MSB had to construct their own measuring tools as the commercial ones were not able to measure to the levels required. A lot of talk on here re the DAVE vs the Select, at the end of the day manufacturers can argue all they want about measurements, me (and I own a Select) I couldn't care less how it measures, only thing I am interested in is how the damn thing sounds. I have noticed that I am listening to a LOT more music nowadays than I have been over the past 12 months. Oh and I think it looks sexy too, so does the DAVE in Black with its stand, very nice


 
 They explained their reasons and they seem plausible enough but the problem with reporting values derived through non-standard methodology is that those of us who aren't technical believe it's an apples to apples comparison (when it's not) and those of us who are technical, because there was a lack of transparency of what their methodology actually was and how a 3rd party might reproduce it, they open themselves to doubt and criticism, which is a shame because having heard the Select II, this is truly an amazing sounding DAC.


----------



## lovethatsound

Surely all you have to do is measure the select ll the same way,and with the same measuring equipment that the Dave was measure with,including all the tests that the Dave has had.


----------



## romaz

lovethatsound said:


> Surely all you have to do is measure the select ll the same way,and with the same measuring equipment that the Dave was measure with,including all the tests that the Dave has had.


 
 Yes, I think we're all waiting for someone to do that and then the speculation will go away.
  
 The bigger problem is Rob seems to report on measurements that he believes are more telling of a DAC's SQ that no one else seems to measure like noise floor modulation or small signal linearity so some consensus needs to be established on what parameters are important and there will probably be disagreements.


----------



## ecwl

romaz said:


> Yes, I think we're all waiting for someone to do that and then the speculation will go away.
> 
> The bigger problem is Rob seems to report on measurements that he believes are more telling of a DAC's SQ that no one else seems to measure like noise floor modulation or small signal linearity so some consensus needs to be established on what parameters are important and there will probably be disagreements.




Actually, John Atkinson has commented on noise floor modulation in his measurements for Stereophile sometimes although he may be talking about slightly different things than Rob Watts and Hi Fi News and World Report does measure small signal linearity. I think the bigger issue is as Romaz says there is no consensus as to what parameters are important and at what level. Meaning: 1) is dynamic range important sonically (almost definitely)... 2) At what level of measurement does dynamic range not matter for a DAC (>100dB, >110dB, >120dB?) As I said earlier, because I like the sound of Chord DACs more than others, I trust Rob Watts as to what measurement parameters are important and I trust his assessment as to what level the measurement parameters need to achieve before there is no point in improving the measurement. One nagging thought I had is that maybe different people truly hear differently. So that means people who prefer MSB Select II may prefer higher dynamic range and people who prefer Chord DAVE may prefer lower noise floor modulation and better low level signal linearity. I suspect this theory is not true and there are universal measurement criteria that matter and it just comes down to training our ears to hear and compare Hi-Fi sound to live music. But I'm really not sure.


----------



## Mavwong

I would say it the same way  well said!
  
  
  
 Quote:


isquirrel said:


> I know MSB had to construct their own measuring tools as the commercial ones were not able to measure to the levels required. A lot of talk on here re the DAVE vs the Select, at the end of the day manufacturers can argue all they want about measurements, me (and I own a Select) I couldn't care less how it measures, only thing I am interested in is how the damn thing sounds. I have noticed that I am listening to a LOT more music nowadays than I have been over the past 12 months. Oh and I think it looks sexy too, so does the DAVE in Black with its stand, very nice


----------



## drdkey

You are spot on that there are several practical considerations! I do use SAM and it is a great feature. The Devialet is a great system but Devialet AIR has worked so inconsistently (damn frustrating) and there doesn't seem to be a real solution to the problem. The company seems to care more about Phantom/Spark and its development. Since I am currently demoing an Aurender N10 on my system, this is a great time to take a step back and see if it is a time for a change. Yes, changing to the Chord DAVE will cost me more up front, but in the long run it may be a better long term investment. I clearly need to hear the DAVE on my set up.
 I read the rest of the thread this morning and I was especially interested in the comments on DR and the effect of the amplifier on the DAC. What amplifier would you suggest with the DAVE?


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


drdkey said:


> You are spot on that there are several practical considerations! I do use SAM and it is a great feature. The Devialet is a great system but Devialet AIR has worked so inconsistently (damn frustrating) and there doesn't seem to be a real solution to the problem. The company seems to care more about Phantom/Spark and its development. Since I am currently demoing an Aurender N10 on my system, this is a great time to take a step back and see if it is a time for a change. Yes, changing to the Chord DAVE will cost me more up front, but in the long run it may be a better long term investment. I clearly need to hear the DAVE on my set up.
> I read the rest of the thread this morning and I was especially interested in the comments on DR and the effect of the amplifier on the DAC. What amplifier would you suggest with the DAVE?


 
  
_Hi drdkey_
  
 If you have the patience... I would wait for Rob Watts' digital power amp to combine it with DAVE.


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> 1) is dynamic range important sonically (almost definitely)...


 


> One nagging thought I had is that maybe different people truly hear differently. So that means people who prefer MSB Select II may prefer higher dynamic range...


  

 I don't think anyone questions the importance of DR, it's just that beyond a certain threshold, it becomes meaningless.   As Rob has stated more than a few times, DR as a reported measurement for a DAC is misunderstood, and until recently, I misunderstood it as well.  I used to look at it as how loud or dynamically a DAC can play when it's really more a reflection of a DAC's residual noise or as Rob calls it "hiss."  Now if you look at DR in this proper context, then no one would ever prefer something like a Select II based on DR because even if the Select II truly has a DR of 170dB, there would be no practical audible difference against the DAVE, even if you connected your headphone to the Select II "direct to DAC."
  
 Rob has already reported that the residual noise of the DAVE is 2.6µV which is a value of hiss that could possibly be heard only through ultra sensitive IEMs which is not likely to be how most people would listen to their DAVE (or their Select II).  Through your typical headphone and especially through speakers, according to Rob, this level of hiss should be inaudible.  If a manufacturer creates a DAC with an even better DR equating to an even lower residual noise value than 2.6µV, it sounds good in theory but what's the point if 2.6µV is already inaudible for the headphone or speakers you are using?
  
 Obviously, this is all purely academic and at the end of the day, it's about enjoying your music, but as I have seen the DAVE criticized on another thread here on Head-Fi for having such a pedestrian DR compared to the superior DR of their DAC, I believe it's important for those contemplating the purchase of a new DAC to understand which parameters are meaningful and which parameters are not.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> Yes, I think we're all waiting for someone to do that and then the speculation will go away.
> 
> The bigger problem is Rob seems to report on measurements that he believes are more telling of a DAC's SQ that no one else seems to measure like noise floor modulation or small signal linearity so some consensus needs to be established on what parameters are important and there will probably be disagreements.




Yes if the Audio manufactures had a originasation where they have agreed in more standardised values on how to wright out the mesaurments that matters the most for the sound, would have been great, but that will most likely not happen in the near future.. 

OT

I ordered the DHC Silver Comp 4 , 7 ft XLR Valab Carbon plugs and the Silver Comp 4 adapter / DHC 3D Adapter from Peter today.

Thanks for the recommendation Roy and Simon! 

Will compare them to the JPS Labs SC when i receive them in april, and from what i have read i think the DHC Comp 4 will suite my preferences better than the SC.


----------



## lovethatsound

I really think when the select II gets it's measurements taken by the same test machine,doing all the tests that the Dave has done,that the measurements won't be as good as Daves.Rob Watts has already said that the Dave has got the best measurements of any Dac in the world today,personal i believe him.


----------



## romaz

drdkey said:


> You are spot on that there are several practical considerations! I do use SAM and it is a great feature. The Devialet is a great system but Devialet AIR has worked so inconsistently (damn frustrating) and there doesn't seem to be a real solution to the problem. The company seems to care more about Phantom/Spark and its development. Since I am currently demoing an Aurender N10 on my system, this is a great time to take a step back and see if it is a time for a change. Yes, changing to the Chord DAVE will cost me more up front, but in the long run it may be a better long term investment. I clearly need to hear the DAVE on my set up.
> I read the rest of the thread this morning and I was especially interested in the comments on DR and the effect of the amplifier on the DAC. What amplifier would you suggest with the DAVE?


 
 If you are targeting an expensive music server like an Aurender N10 to pair with your Devialet, then buying a Chord DAVE instead may not be a giant financial stretch considering you can pair it with the Mac you already own or something inexpensive like a Sonos and almost certainly end up with better SQ than what you would get from any Aurender paired with the Texas Instruments DAC in your Devialet. While you give up a bit of convenience should you decide to leave your Devialet, because the DAVE already has an excellent digital preamp, the only thing you would really be adding to your setup with a DAVE would be a pair of analog interconnects along with a separate speaker amp. You will have to decide if the convenience of the Devialet along with some of its proprietary features like SAM outweigh the benefits you would get with the DAVE and so I would agree, you would have to be able to compare the DAVE in your system and directly against your Devialet to know for sure.  If it makes you feel any better, many of us have, in fact, done exactly what you are contemplating and while I can only speak for myself, the hassles involved have indeed been worthwhile.  
  
 I would agree with Jazz, if you have the patience, you would be hard pressed to do better than the upcoming digital amps that Rob will be designing for the DAVE, however, having spoken to John Franks at CanJam yesterday, he told me the 20 watt amp is probably a year away with the other amps more realistically being 2 years away (although its possible that it is his nature to under promise and over deliver).


----------



## Kakki

romaz said:


> I would agree with Jazz, if you have the patience, you would be hard pressed to do better than the upcoming digital amps that Rob will be designing for the DAVE, however, having spoken to John Franks at CanJam yesterday, he told me the 20 watt amp is probably a year away with the other amps more realistically being 2 years away (although its possible that it is his nature to under promise and over deliver).


 
  
 A year from now...!?
  
 Quite shocking ... but will try to wait calmly until Rob thinks it's good enough to be released to the market...


----------



## isquirrel

beolab said:


> Yes if the Audio manufactures had a originasation where they have agreed in more standardised values on how to wright out the mesaurments that matters the most for the sound, would have been great, but that will most likely not happen in the near future..
> 
> OT
> 
> ...


 

 I found the SC to be a similar sound to the stock cable, smoother, but in doing so it lost some of the stock cables dynamics. I found the DHC Spore 4 Silver to be much more transparemt, free of grain, which is what started my cable search. One of the other factors the I particularly enjoyed was the feeling of bass note pressure building before the note struck. In particular the Spore 4 seemed to counter-act the U shaped sound which is part of the Abyss's sonic traits. IN order to use the adapters its best to order the for fitment to suit the HE-1000. IN other words a 2.5MM plug. I can report no issues with the adapters tension even after a 6 month operating time.


----------



## Beolab

isquirrel said:


> I found the SC to be a similar sound to the stock cable, smoother, but in doing so it lost some of the stock cables dynamics. I found the DHC Spore 4 Silver to be much more transparemt, free of grain, which is what started my cable search. One of the other factors the I particularly enjoyed was the feeling of bass note pressure building before the note struck. In particular the Spore 4 seemed to counter-act the U shaped sound which is part of the Abyss's sonic traits. IN order to use the adapters its best to order the for fitment to suit the HE-1000. IN other words a 2.5MM plug. I can report no issues with the adapters tension even after a 6 month operating time.




Thanks Simon! 

Yes the SC is to thick and try to hide the grain in the more buttery warmth sound, so i have gone back to the Stock, which i like more for my taste, but as you mention, very grainy and i find almost small distortion peaks / glitches in tone overlaps , which i dont like. And the bass need to be more pronounced and controlled with greater impact which i find goes away on higher levels. 

I unfortenatly ordered it in Grey Charcoal the dual Valab 3pin XLR - Mini 3pin XLR , incl the 3 pin XLR - 1/4 inch silver comp4 adapter and the XLR - 1/4 inch 3D Shaved Adapter. 

In what position of do you find the earpads sounding the best if the stock center is about 3 o'clock ? 

So next update is the Source. I have a Aurender W20 on loan, and you are using the N10 or? What is your impression out of the two? 


Back to DAVE


----------



## JaZZ

*Future new Chord products*
  
 1.  A series of *digital amps* designed especially for the connection to DAVE, beginning with a 20 watts model, is already confirmed and planned to be released in a year or so.
  
 2.  Not decided yet, but likely is a variant specifically for driving demanding headphones, including outputs with bias voltage for *electrostatic headphones*.
  
 3.  A *new digital preamp* one step below DAVE and one step above the Hugo TT. It will have a WTA filter with 56,000 taps (thus between Hugo and DAVE) and be battery driven. The reduction of the tap number serves for reducing current consumption and heat development and enabling portability in the first place. It will have almost the same modulation noise suppression as DAVE.
 We all know that Rob Watts uses to carry his DAVE around on his travels from hotel to hotel, so a considerably more lightweight model with virtually identical sound quality is a logical move. Portable not in the narrower sense, though.
  
 4.  Of lesser priority (but I guess Chord shouldn't wait too long with the release not to miss the wave initiated by the Hugo and proceeded by the Mojo): a *portable audio player* of the size and with the technique of the Mojo. As expectable from the English company, it will have a somewhat exceptional UI, which will nevertheless be highly intuitive – and probably (hopefully) perfect from the start. This is certainly a device many of us have been waiting for. The bad news is that its output power is only 48% of the Mojo's – in the interest of lower power consumption and battery life. Now with the intended purpose – outdoor use – it will most likely be used for driving IEMs with their relatively high efficiency.
  
  
*Caveat:*  With the exception of point 1 the above is pure speculation from my part. But posting it ten days later would have made it too obvious.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

5) New ADC single or double channel solution for pro-studios

6) Upgrades to sampling capability and possibly more for Chord Red Ref and Blu transports

It's a busy time for Chord that's for sure Jazz

Regarding the Dave and my overall system sound I have made some meaningful acoustic changes to my room recently and I continue to be surprised by how good this DAC is. Particularly so in how it presents classical music through the Sonus Faber Olympica's. I am trying to be objective but it is producing a believable performance in my room. Such is the quality that I feel privileged to experience this level of musical communication. Lucky indeed.

.....and all from just Red Book


----------



## JaZZ

Yeah, I forgot the ADC. A fascinating product which I pin quite some hopes on. On the other hand, it will take at least 2½ years till we'll get to hear (and buy) the first few recordings made with it, and those will still represent a tiny fraction of my music collection – if the music is to my liking at all (I'm not so much into mainstream independent of the genre). Also, there will be much more time needed till it's used for a majority of the recordings (which hopefully will happen one day).
  
 Has anybody experimented with the HF filter? Upon Rob's recommendation I had left it on, but out of curiosity turned it off on several occasions. Sometimes the music sounds more interesting that way, a bit sharper (nor necessarily in a negative sense), but most of the time I prefer the smoother sound with engaged filter, particualrly with classical music. The effect is very small, though. I probably wouldn't notice if it was off by mistake.


----------



## isquirrel

beolab said:


> Thanks Simon!
> 
> Yes the SC is to thick and try to hide the grain in the more buttery warmth sound, so i have gone back to the Stock, which i like more for my taste, but as you mention, very grainy and i find almost small distortion peaks / glitches in tone overlaps , which i dont like. And the bass need to be more pronounced and controlled with greater impact which i find go away on higher levels.
> 
> ...


 

 You are welcome, I would get onto Peter asap and tell him you wish to change the order so that you can use adapters, tell him you want cables like Simon & Roy's. He won't have an issue changing the order as he is always flexible. HIs number is +1 (405) 808-6075 or peter@doublehelixcables.com, he prefers texts to phone calls.
  
 I have attached a photo of here I have the ear pads, but I have found that to get the best out of them (in other words being totally OCD) I do change the distance and toe in depending on the style of music, for EDM, anything with a lot of bass that you want to maximise you would have less toe in and the ear pads further away. For more intimate recordings (buy a HE-1000 or LCD-) you would bring the ear pads closer and toe them in more. You never want them pushed against your face to make a seal. You must always leave an air gap around them so they are not touching the sides of your head.
  


 Re the source, I owned the Antipodes DX 2TB SSD, the CAD CAT (latest version) and the Aurender W20, the CAT beat the Antipodes (hands down), the Aurender is clearly better than the other two, much more refined - BUT I wanted the W20 primarily so I could use the external Word Clock function other wise I would have bought the N10. There is no external word clock function on the DAVE as apparently it is source agnostic, which in my experience is accurate to an extent (even though both I and my partner heard a difference it was to be sure a subtle difference) and only an OCD person like me would bother spending the extra money. I like AES and I have found that where its available on a DAC and I use it I get good results, it was the same with the Nagra, Kalliope etc. I accept that especially on this forum my views are probably contrary to some people.
  
 My advice (for what its worth) would be try it and see what you like. Make sure you use decent AES cables, its worth trying S/PDIF as well. The beauty of the Aurender N10 or W20 is they are like a swiss army knife and have pretty much every connection apart from I2S. A warning re Digital Cables. I read over on WBF that an audio engineering company has tested a variety of digital cables impedance. Some of the cables were expensive and one was as low as 45 ohms impedance. I find the AES connection gives me more air, I am sure that someone will pop up and tell me I am hearing artefacts or something, I don't mind, it sounds better to me.
  
 P.S. I should mention that the Antipodes has recently been upgraded, so the one I had is probably not representative of what's available today. The build quality of the Aurender is superb, I have Roy to thank for pushing me in that direction. I have a 4 week old W20 12TB for sale, if anyones interested, send me a PM. You won't buy it cheaper.


----------



## romaz

isquirrel said:


> There is no external word clock function on the DAVE as apparently it is source agnostic, which in my experience is accurate to an extent (even though both I and my partner heard a difference it was to be sure a subtle difference) and only an OCD person like me would bother spending the extra money.


 
 I actually agree with your experience on the DAVE, Simon.  My group also heard subtle differences from one source to another and *unblinded*, I had reported that some of us felt USB sounded a bit better than optical and that the N10 layered a bit better than the other sources although when *blinded*, none of us could tell what we were listening to.  It's possible, however, that while blinded, because it took a bit more time to switch from one source to another, it was easier for the mind to forget what it had just heard.  Regardless, our consensus was that if one source was better than another, it was subtle at best and from the worst to the best, they all sounded very very good.  Since then, I have also tested my Roku box and my Sonos via optical (both bit-perfect) and they all seem to sound just as good.
  
 With more time spent comparing, using my Sonicorbiter SE which has both USB and optical outputs, I remain convinced that USB is slightly better than optical (a bit more air) and so almost all of my critical listening is now on USB although at no time do I feel shortchanged when listening via optical.  Having sold my AES/EBU cables with my TotalDac months ago, I have not tried the AES/EBU input on the DAVE and perhaps someone can report how the AES/EBU or the Coax inputs compare.


----------



## wdh777

How is the amp in the Dave vs tt? Can the Dave. Drive the lcd4s with plenty of head room?


----------



## romaz

Over the weekend, while at CanJam in southern California, I purchased this product called "Out of Your Head", a virtual speaker software program for headphones designed to simulate various 2-channel speaker setups (from Magico, Sonus Faber, Focal, Martin Logan, etc.) and even 7.1 surround sound via DSP.  It came highly recommended by a source I will not name and since I have my Oppo Bluray player connected to my DAVE, I figured "why not?"  It might be nice to simulate surround sound through my HE1000 or HD800S while watching a movie.  Well, it was a bad move.  While this software sounded pretty good at the demo with another DAC, using the DAVE, all I heard was distortion. 
  
 Yesterday, I tried something else that I had been meaning to try for a long time.  During my day spent with Tyll Hertsens last September, he convinced me that my HE-1000 would benefit from EQing even though his measurements showed that the stock HE1000 measures pretty well.  Using Tyll's EQ settings for the HE-1000 and JRiver's built-in EQ, I listened to tracks I know well and I'm not convinced I heard an improvement.  If there was an improvement by flattening the frequency response of the HE-1000, it may have been negated by breaking the bit-perfect stream that happens through EQing.  Maybe someone else can report their experience with EQing their headphones with the DAVE.


----------



## romaz

wdh777 said:


> How is the amp in the Dave vs tt? Can the Dave. Drive the lcd4s with plenty of head room?


 
 We recently tested the LCD-4 on the DAVE and there is plenty of drive there.  They are an easier load to drive compared to HE-1000.  For most music, we rarely got louder than -10dB.


----------



## MacedonianHero

romaz said:


> We recently tested the LCD-4 on the DAVE and there is plenty of drive there.  They are an easier load to drive compared to HE-1000.  For most music, we rarely got louder than -10dB.


 
  
 I'm not surprised, I found the Hugo TT has plenty of drive for both the HE1000 and LCD-4.


----------



## isquirrel

I will have a permanent DAVE + the sexy stand in Black, (couldn't help myself its for my partner... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) when it arrives I will have more time than last time I had a DAVE here to run all those tests for you. I should point out that IMHO they will be skewed however as whilst I will be using a Transparent USB cable its not of the same level as the AES cable, however the S/PDIF and the AES are the same standard. I must say that for my intended use, 8 weeks away in London the superb sounding Mapleshade Optical cable (that you put me onto to, thanks) plugged into my MacBook is what I will be using + Roon. 
  
 I will make sure I run those tests on the un-suspecting family as the boys have now decided that this Hi-Fi thing is really quite "cool", they always ask for the Abyss out of the DAVE, I found it could drive them very well and I certainly wouldn't want it any louder and there was gain to spare.
  
 I know its off topic - but how did you go with the Synergistic Research ground block?


----------



## isquirrel

wdh777 said:


> How is the amp in the Dave vs tt? Can the Dave. Drive the lcd4s with plenty of head room?


 

 Plenty of gain for the LCD-4 (100ohm version)


----------



## MacedonianHero

isquirrel said:


> Plenty of gain for the LCD-4 (100ohm version)


 
  
 The 200 ohm LCD-4 is a bit harder to drive, but no troubles, just turn up the volume some more.


----------



## isquirrel

macedonianhero said:


> The 200 ohm LCD-4 is a bit harder to drive, but no troubles, just turn up the volume some more.


 

 I got them off a close friend, he contacted Audeze who advised that the 100ohm sounded better and if mine are working, hold onto them as there is a 3 year warranty.


----------



## MacedonianHero

isquirrel said:


> I got them off a close friend, he contacted Audeze who advised that the 100ohm sounded better and if mine are working, hold onto them as there is a 3 year warranty.


 
  
 I'm doing an update for Headphone.Guru and to my ears they're both fairly close, but I think I might prefer the 200 ohm LCD-4.


----------



## isquirrel

macedonianhero said:


> I'm doing an update for Headphone.Guru and to my ears they're both fairly close, but I think I might prefer the 200 ohm LCD-4.


 

 Interesting, how so?


----------



## MacedonianHero

isquirrel said:


> Interesting, how so?


 
  
 I'll put more in the update, but they are even quicker sounding and tactile. More to come...


----------



## JaZZ

romaz said:


> Yesterday, I tried something else that I had been meaning to try for a long time.  During my day spent with Tyll Hertsens last September, he convinced me that my HE-1000 would benefit from EQing even though his measurements showed that the stock HE1000 measures pretty well.  Using Tyll's EQ settings for the HE-1000 and JRiver's built-in EQ, I listened to tracks I know well and I'm not convinced I heard an improvement.  If there was an improvement by flattening the frequency response of the HE-1000, it may have been negated by breaking the bit-perfect stream that happens through EQing.


 
  
 While I have no idea what Tyll's EQ curve looks like, I suspect it will predominantly be based on his measuring curve. I took it as a basis as well, but was never really satisfied with the result. After numerous trials and errors I ended up with a curve that looks like this:
  


  
   
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
 Left is with my _Fiio X5 II'_s octave equalizer, right with _xnor'_s 1/3-octave equalizer for _foobar2000._
  
 I'm very satisfied with the result and don't believe that I will change much if anything. Of course different ears may need some adjustments here and there, but I think it's a coherent setting.
  
 And BTW, I wouldn't overrate the meaning of «bit perfection». Even DAVE's crossfeed will destroy it. Just as every equalizing in the studio during mixing will do. You can't have bit perfection with any sort of DSP. That doesn't tell anything about the quality of the resulting sound.


----------



## romaz

jazz said:


> While I have no idea what Tyll's EQ curve looks like, I suspect it will predominantly be based on his measuring curve. I took it as a basis as well, but was never really satisfied with the result. After numerous trials and errors I ended up with a curve that looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, Jazz!  I will  give this a try.


----------



## romaz

isquirrel said:


> I will have a permanent DAVE + the sexy stand in Black, (couldn't help myself its for my partner...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Glad to hear that.  I know what you mean about that stand.  I didn't think too much about it until I saw that photo that Paul posted.
  
 I got the chance to hear the Abyss on the DAVE again this weekend and it reminded me of how good it sounded on the DAVE when I heard it last November.  Without question, for me, there is enough drive there.
  
 I also got to hear the Abyss with the JPS SC headphone cable paired with the not yet released Wells Headtrip Reference amp ($14,000) at CanJam this weekend.  According to Jeff Wells, it's the same amp as the original Headtrip but with a more robust external linear PSU and with copper caps.  How this justifies doubling the price to $14,000, I'm not sure but it sounded very good.  Plenty of power there for sure but even with the darker JPS SC headphone cable, I developed listener fatigue fairly quickly although I am told it may have been due to the La Scala DAC that was feeding it which is supposedly a bright DAC.  
  
 As for the SR ground block, it went back.  Not as good as Entreq but with the DAVE, even Entreq is no longer necessary.


----------



## Rob Watts

romaz said:


> I actually agree with your experience on the DAVE, Simon.  My group also heard subtle differences from one source to another and *unblinded*, I had reported that some of us felt USB sounded a bit better than optical and that the N10 layered a bit better than the other sources although when *blinded*, none of us could tell what we were listening to.  It's possible, however, that while blinded, because it took a bit more time to switch from one source to another, it was easier for the mind to forget what it had just heard.  Regardless, our consensus was that if one source was better than another, it was subtle at best and from the worst to the best, they all sounded very very good.  Since then, I have also tested my Roku box and my Sonos via optical (both bit-perfect) and they all seem to sound just as good.
> 
> With more time spent comparing, using my Sonicorbiter SE which has both USB and optical outputs, I remain convinced that USB is slightly better than optical (a bit more air) and so almost all of my critical listening is now on USB although at no time do I feel shortchanged when listening via optical.  Having sold my AES/EBU cables with my TotalDac months ago, I have not tried the AES/EBU input on the DAVE and perhaps someone can report how the AES/EBU or the Coax inputs compare.


 
 Agreed on the USB input - it is a tad more detailed with more clarity than the optical - but we are talking small differences here. Using the jitter test you can measure v tiny degradation using optical, but its barely detectable. The reason USB is slightly better is because the timing comes from the FPGA, and of course they are both galvanically isolated. 
  
 Rob


----------



## lovethatsound

romaz said:


> We recently tested the LCD-4 on the DAVE and there is plenty of drive there.  They are an easier load to drive compared to HE-1000.  For most music, we rarely got louder than -10dB.


Some of you guys have your headphones very loud,most of the time i have mine about -28,-30,with my hd800,and i think that's loud lol


----------



## romaz

lovethatsound said:


> Some of you guys have your headphones very loud,most of the time i have mine about -28,-30,with my hd800,and i think that's loud lol


 
 With my HD800S, with very wide dynamic range orchestral recordings, I will sometimes go to -15 to -18dB so I can enjoy the quieter passages.  For studio recordings, -25 to -30dB is often plenty.  That headphone doesn't need much power and it's also potentially more fatiguing at higher volumes than either the HE-1000 or LCD-4.  Open headphones are definitely safer then closed headphones which are then safer then IEMs due to the higher pressures these monitors can generate against your ear drums.  At the point your ears start to ring, you will definitely want to shut it down.  Tinnitus (ringing of the ears) has the potential to become permanent.


----------



## AndrewOld

rob watts said:


> Dave is unique in that there is no other control electronics apart from the FPGA powered by Dave's PSU. This meant I could reduce RF noise levels as another processor on a different clock is eliminated; but the downside is that I have to code for everything (including the display drivers too, the character generation and display interface is all done by the FPGA). I had planned to use the numbers from the remote, but I simply ran out of time.
> 
> Rob


 

 Rob, thanks for the answer, and thanks for being honest!


----------



## gnomen

daveredref-iii said:


> Regarding the Dave and my overall system sound I have made some meaningful acoustic changes to my room recently and I continue to be surprised by how good this DAC is. Particularly so in how it presents classical music through the Sonus Faber Olympica's. I am trying to be objective but it is producing a believable performance in my room. Such is the quality that I feel privileged to experience this level of musical communication. Lucky indeed.
> 
> .....and all from just Red Book


 
 Hi Dave,  if it is not too far off-topic I would be interested to hear what acoustic changes you made, since I am considering making changes to my own living room as well.


----------



## rkt31

any plan for Dave being used for cutting vinyl for native digital recordings ? has anybody approached chord ? I am curious to know the process involved in converting native digital recordings to vinyl . does it involve any eq and what are the gear involved ?


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> Glad to hear that.  I know what you mean about that stand.  I didn't think too much about it until I saw that photo that Paul posted.
> 
> I got the chance to hear the Abyss on the DAVE again this weekend and it reminded me of how good it sounded on the DAVE when I heard it last November.  Without question, for me, there is enough drive there.
> 
> ...




A pretty huge price step for moving the linear trafo outside the box with some new baybee caps =) 

Can you describe the sound a little bit in more detail of the new reference romaz? 

Same specs as before, and almost the same sound, so i don't see an upgrade is coming for me in the nearest future. 

Most of the time i use the DAVE as the main amp for my Abyss. It can drive them to immense levels with 100% transparency to the source material. 

The SC is going back unfortunately.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Gnomen
 At this stage I am using adapted materials and frameworks to establish how the most noticable reflections can be avoided.
  
 One very experienced hifi retailer once said to me that speakers always sound like the room they are in. My room is approx. 16 x 14 but it has recesses and a fire place chimney stack in the middle of one long wall. The ceiling is about 8' 9" high. Floor is carpeted and wood boards beneath. The speakers are set firing across the room from the long wall with the fireplace and chimney stack behind. This provides nice width and suits my more localised listening setup but the chimney stack is the rooms weakness as it bounces bass due to proximity effects. This is not due to the speakers being too close to the walls though (in relation to manufacturers recommended distances). They are out in the room. (more on this later). My seated position backs on to a long wall with a double door recess to the conservatory. The walls are 18 inches thick so the recess is useful behind the sitting position. I have heavy curtains behind the listening position along the long wall and this together with the recess avoids any bass bounce from what would have been close proximity and also deadens any mid to high reflection from behind the listen position. To the right of me I am fortunate enough to have a recessed window along that short wall which runs to the floor and avoids immediate reflection from the right speaker. It also has original wooden Georgian shutters. Not much work needed there. To my left is a radiator left of the speaker and a Georgian door in front of it. I have not addressed any reflection here yet but the door will provide some breakup from the left speaker side reflection due to its design.
  
 I also have a 3 tapestries and numerous pictures on the walls to reduce and break-up high frequency reflections and also built-in bookcases up to the ceiling each side of the chimney stack behind the speakers.
  
 Where I have had great success this last week is dealing with the chimney stack. I sited two 0.9mtr high 14" square structures 1 foot inside the proximity of each speaker and a third similar size structure to the right wall just behind the speaker aray plane (because there was more space to the right side than the left speaker has). The result on bass control, image separation and overall clarity was quite profound. I spent hours afterwards going through my music collection till the early hours in amazement. It has enthused me to make further acoustic improvements to the room. Once I know what I need I will look to buy a more professional permanent solution for each aspect. What is evident though is that the better the room acoustics the better Dave Dac sounds. Particularly the purity of sound.
  
 This audiophile thing is an obsession that's for sure.
  
 EDIT: Please note that the third structure is placed 'against the right wall' and away from the right speaker. It is filling a void to balance bass as the Olympica III's are set to vent outwards on their sides and the left speaker is closer to the wall than the right due to the imbalance of the room dimensions in relation to the chimney stack.


----------



## innocentblood

out of curiosity, is anyone here using DAVE as a stand-alone DAC connected to a tube amplifier such as Woo Audio's WA22? what are your impressions please?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I have to say that for anyone wishing to compare the Dave Dac with top line competitor Dacs the best way to compare is via a sota pair of Headphones. That will avoid any of the degradation of amplification, distortions of frequency band by loudspeakers and weaknesses in room acoustics. I listen to my music via loudspeakers but for test comparisons headphones have to be the optimum way of conducting a fair test I think, so long as the headphones used are of a calibre to do justice to the capabilities of the Dave Dac.


----------



## AndrewOld

OK. I have a dilemma. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get a DAVE, but do I get a black one or a silver one? I had a silver Hugo and currently have a black TT, the black TT gets a bit fingerprinty, so I'm possibly slightly inclined to silver. I know in these days I am a very lucky person to have this as a dilemma, but if anyone has any views I'd be interested to hear them.

Peace in our time.


----------



## gnomen

daveredref-iii said:


> At this stage I am using adapted materials and frameworks to establish how the most noticable reflections can be avoided.
> 
> One very experienced hifi retailer once said to me that speakers always sound like the room they are in.


 
 Thanks Dave.  Very interesting and thought-provoking.  Love the quote "speakers always sound like the room they are in".  So true.
 The challenge is to find sound modifying materials which also meet the WAF -- wife-acceptance-factor -- unless you are lucky enough to have a den of your own.
 My best success was with small trees in pots -- placed behind the speakers they allowed the speakers to stand well away from the wall without looking unnatural, while the thick foliage broke up reflections.  But I will need more ways to adapt the current listening room.
  
 Cheers


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

That's quite inventive gnomen and I would imagine it would work well for diffusing reflections


----------



## romaz

innocentblood said:


> out of curiosity, is anyone here using DAVE as a stand-alone DAC connected to a tube amplifier such as Woo Audio's WA22? what are your impressions please?


 
 When I had a DAVE on temporary loan in November, I connected it to my Eddie Current Balancing Act with PX-4 tubes and then to my HE-1000 and compared how my HE-1000 sounded both with the tube amp and direct to DAC.  PX-4 tubes are known to have a very direct sound and are fairly neutral.  They are not known for any real bloom or harmonic coloration and even though I enjoyed this amp and tube combination with my HE-1000 very much in the past, without question, there was a greater degree of clarity and immediacy when my HE-1000 was connected direct to DAC. Background was quieter, colors were a touch richer, presentation was a bit smoother and more liquid and the degree of depth and space was also greater without the amp in the chain.  Of course, you could roll your tubes and alter the presentation of your tube amp to great effect and so that would be the advantage of a tube amp, especially if you are trying to compensate for a shortcoming of your headphones or speakers.  There's no right or wrong, only personal preference but there was a noticeable degree of transparency degradation when I connected my tube amp.


----------



## ecwl

andrewold said:


> OK. I have a dilemma. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get a DAVE, but do I get a black one or a silver one? I had a silver Hugo and currently have a black TT, the black TT gets a bit fingerprinty, so I'm possibly slightly inclined to silver. I know in these days I am a very lucky person to have this as a dilemma, but if anyone has any views I'd be interested to hear them.




If you like the black one, get the black one. I don't get many fingerprints on mine. But I mainly use it in my stereo and would rarely plug in my headphones for late night listening. I use the remote for volume control and occasionally presses the physical buttons on DAVE to change the input.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> When I had a DAVE on temporary loan in November, I connected it to my Eddie Current Balancing Act with PX-4 tubes and then to my HE-1000 and compared how my HE-1000 sounded both with the tube amp and direct to DAC.  PX-4 tubes are known to have a very direct sound and are fairly neutral.  They are not known for any real bloom or harmonic coloration and even though I enjoyed this amp and tube combination with my HE-1000 very much in the past, without question, there was a greater degree of clarity and immediacy when my HE-1000 was connected direct to DAC. Background was quieter, colors were a touch richer, presentation was a bit smoother and more liquid and the degree of depth and space was also greater without the amp in the chain.  Of course, you could roll your tubes and alter the presentation of your tube amp to great effect and so that would be the advantage of a tube amp, especially if you are trying to compensate for a shortcoming of your headphones or speakers.  There's no right or wrong, only personal preference but there was a noticeable degree of transparency degradation when I connected my tube amp.


 
  
 That says a lot Doc.
 Eddie Current Balancing Act with the PX4 rectifiers have more gain than my favorite 300B.
 What you found makes me even more curious about the Dave headamp.


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> A pretty huge price step for moving the linear trafo outside the box with some new baybee caps =)
> 
> Can you describe the sound a little bit in more detail of the new reference romaz?
> 
> ...


 
 With the Heatrip Reference, the music sounded more illuminated.  Nothing was subtle.  You also felt as if you had unlimited power on tap which is never a bad thing.  While the standard Headtrip was right next to it, it was connected to a pair of Dharmas and intended for a different type of demonstration and so I couldn't do a good A/B but I would have to say the Reference seemed to have more authority.  My experience with really powerful amps is that while they have great tonal body, they often lack nuance and often can't layer subtle details as well.  They can also seem slow and less agile.  I can't say if this was the case with the Headtrip Reference or not because I didn't spend enough time with it and there was only the option to play unfamiliar studio recordings that Jeff had on hand.  
  
 My immediate impression was that it sounded very good which is not surprising given Jeff's history of building great amps but before the track I was listening to ended, I could already sense that I would fatigue quickly with this setup.  There was a noticeable digital glare but I was told it was likely due to the La Scala DAC.  Probably worth exploring further if you feel you need an amp but at $14,000, this one is hard to justify.  
  
 I met a new head-fi friend this past weekend, @bacon333, who also has a new DAVE and an Abyss.  It was, in fact, his Abyss that I enjoyed listening to this weekend.  He was with me at CanJam and he has an excellent ear and is a very good writer.  He will hopefully be reporting his impressions soon.  Having reviewed Jeff Well's original Headtrip on his own site (https://audiobacon.net/2015/12/14/ultra-high-end-full-size-open-headphone-shootout/), he has a good relationship with Jeff and has asked him for a review sample of the Reference but it may take a month as he is waiting for parts.  I am eager to read what he thinks of the Headtrip Reference fed by the DAVE.


----------



## wdh777

Do many of you use the Dave with an external headphone amp? I currently have a Hugo TT and I'm considering upgrading to the Dave. I was also considering getting a Headamp GSX MK2. Will this be overkill with the Dave driving even a set of LCD4s or should I consider keeping the GSX MK2? I was reading the Dave manual and it was a little confusing. If I were to use an external amp do would I set the Dave to Dac mode? It sounds like you also always need to power up the Dave before the external amp?


----------



## wdh777

Rob, thanks for all the responses. It's awesome that you are so involved. I don't always follow all the technical stuff but I'm learning. On the non-technical side just curious if you have a few go to music tracks that you always return to when developing these products? If you do is it just do to musical preference or is there something about the recordings that highlight the product capabilities? Thanks!


----------



## nepherte

wdh777 said:


> Do many of you use the Dave with an external headphone amp? I currently have a Hugo TT and I'm considering upgrading to the Dave. I was also considering getting a Headamp GSX MK2. Will this be overkill with the Dave driving even a set of LCD4s or should I consider keeping the GSX MK2? I was reading the Dave manual and it was a little confusing. If I were to use an external amp do would I set the Dave to Dac mode? It sounds like you also always need to power up the Dave before the external amp?


 

 Very good question. Depending on the headphone, a GS-X mk2 might be overkill in combination with a DAVE. All I can say is that, if you think you'll need an amplifier, the GS-X mk2 is the most transparent headphone amp I've heard. Couldn't hear a difference using between my Totaldac with or without the GS-X.


----------



## Beolab

wdh777 said:


> Do many of you use the Dave with an external headphone amp? I currently have a Hugo TT and I'm considering upgrading to the Dave. I was also considering getting a Headamp GSX MK2. Will this be overkill with the Dave driving even a set of LCD4s or should I consider keeping the GSX MK2? I was reading the Dave manual and it was a little confusing. If I were to use an external amp do would I set the Dave to Dac mode? It sounds like you also always need to power up the Dave before the external amp?




I would say and i think i speak for the rest of the DAVE pack also, when i say you do not need any external amp at all, because you cant find a amp that is more transparent than DAVE with its direct drive. But if you would like to have a diffrent tone, it could be an option but not the transparent GSX-II then, maybe a tube amp in that case.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> With the Heatrip Reference, the music sounded more illuminated.  Nothing was subtle.  You also felt as if you had unlimited power on tap which is never a bad thing.  While the standard Headtrip was right next to it, it was connected to a pair of Dharmas and intended for a different type of demonstration and so I couldn't do a good A/B but I would have to say the Reference seemed to have more authority.  My experience with really powerful amps is that while they have great tonal body, they often lack nuance and often can't layer subtle details as well.  They can also seem slow and less agile.  I can't say if this was the case with the Headtrip Reference or not because I didn't spend enough time with it and there was only the option to play unfamiliar studio recordings that Jeff had on hand.
> 
> My immediate impression was that it sounded very good which is not surprising given Jeff's history of building great amps but before the track I was listening to ended, I could already sense that I would fatigue quickly with this setup.  There was a noticeable digital glare but I was told it was likely due to the La Scala DAC.  Probably worth exploring further if you feel you need an amp but at $14,000, this one is hard to justify.
> 
> ...




Yes i have very good contact with Jeff, and we are discussing to upgrade my five weeks old HeadTrip to the reference for a nice discount, but it is very nice to here what it brings to the table vs the ordinary HeadTrip from a neutral listener before i ship it to Jeff. 

I do not use it so much , just in in special occasions on a certain tracks. 

The DAVE is just a small powerhouse and can drive the Abyss to immense levels with the greatest clarity and control so it is just if you want a warmer sound with the feeling of endless of power on tap i use the HeadTrip.


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> Yes i have very good contact with Jeff, and we are discussing to upgrade my five weeks old HeadTrip to the reference for a nice discount, but it is very nice to here what it brings to the table vs the ordinary HeadTrip from a neutral listener before i ship it to Jeff.
> 
> I do not use it so much , just in in special occasions on a certain tracks.
> 
> The DAVE is just a small powerhouse and can drive the Abyss to immense levels with the greatest clarity and control so it is just if you want a warmer sound with the feeling of endless of power on tap i use the HeadTrip.


 
 He mentioned you and had very nice things to say about you.  I can understand why you would want it.  It is a statement amp as much as the DAVE is a statement DAC.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> He mentioned you and had very nice things to say about you.  I can understand why you would want it.  It is a statement amp as much as the DAVE is a statement DAC.




Okey, nice to here he mention a guy from Sweden at CanJam in the US 

I try to help him out with certain things. 

Very nice guy as many in this business


----------



## rkt31

@DaveRedRef-III, best way to cancel or avoid room interaction is to toe in the speakers . I have about 20'x20' room which is 18' high and with bare walls . even then my kef r300 ( which are already a bit bass heavy ) sound very clear just because those are toed in . toe in requires a bit of experiment to balance bass and treble. more toe in will make Treble harsh and less toe in will cause bass boom so best toe in angle is somewhere in between. it will also make sweet spot requirement redundant. with correct toe in the imaging will be good from any spot of the room. just try and you will be amazed with the results. in fact with this no elaborate room treatment will be required.


----------



## Rob Watts

wdh777 said:


> Rob, thanks for all the responses. It's awesome that you are so involved. I don't always follow all the technical stuff but I'm learning. On the non-technical side just curious if you have a few go to music tracks that you always return to when developing these products? If you do is it just do to musical preference or is there something about the recordings that highlight the product capabilities? Thanks!


 
 Thanks, I will be talking about the specific tracks I use on my listening tests blog post, which I hope to do over the next few days.
  
 Rob


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

rtk31
I have always toed the speakers in. Sonus Faber voice their speakers to be directed straight at the listeners ears. I am on my 4th pair but thanks for the thought.

That ceiling height of yours sounds more like a hall. You have done well to tame that space, especially as the room is square also. I am in the process of getting planning to repatriate an old ballroom with our Georgian farmhouse. The ballroom is 60' x 20' with 22' high ceiling. I think I will avoid the high ceiling for audio purposes though.


----------



## Christer

daveredref-iii said:


> rtk31
> I have always toed the speakers in. Sonus Faber voice their speakers to be directed straight at the listeners ears. I am on my 4th pair but thanks for the thought.
> 
> That ceiling height of yours sounds more like a hall. You have done well to tame that space, especially as the room is square also. I am in the process of getting planning to repatriate an old ballroom with our Georgian farmhouse. The ballroom is 60' x 20' with 22' high ceiling. I think I will avoid the high ceiling for audio purposes though.


 

 Interesting discussion.
 I am  since quite a while now,looking at possibly buying  a former chapel converted into a home to get a  much larger listening room for my electrostatics than I have now.
 Most I have seen for sale seem to have rather high ceilings like the height you mention, which I assumed  if not too reverberant,as good acoustically.
 As I see and hear it, big speakers need big space to sound realistic  on large scale  acoustic symphonic material.
 And no concert hall I know has a low ceiling.
 I would rather try to  "cushion" the space with furniture like sofas and armchairs and bookshelves and other absorbing materials than lower the ceiling.
 Why would you lower yours?
 To me  a rectangular and ballroom sized listening room with a high ceiling sounds like the ideal I am looking for?
 The ones I have on my list of possible buys have  chapel/listening rooms of 60-80 and sometimes even up to 120 sqm.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

It depends on the materials used in the walls and ceiling of course but I would expect high reverberation and a fair amount of work to tame it. Bizarrely my ballroom building has walls covered with heavy cork and an industrial sized refrigeration unit from floor to ceiling because the farm commandeered it for refrigerating apples in the picking seasons. Sound wise though it is very inert because of the cork but due to its size and ceiling there is still some reverberation.

The electrics and controls for refrigeration are a wonder to behold and should be in a museum somewhere. They are so substantial you get the feeling they could power a tower block.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Christer 
Just run your idea (of using it for hifi room) passed the Mrs and she is rather holding out for the exercise pool. Facial expression not encouraging. 

Sorry for O/T guys


----------



## britneedadvice

I've been following this thread for some time waiting for further impressions on the DAVE.Particularly,  configured as suggested by Roy(Romaz). That is, no Amp.
 I 've asked questions of some contributors to this thread(by way of PM) who  appear to have good experience with a vast array of Headphone Amps and also have acquired a DAVE, for their thoughts.
 Now, it may just be too early for some to express their views but there seems to be a lack of 'endorsement' that I would have thought it appears to merit???
 Is this because the reality may be that some are fearful of admitting that other expensive purchases may now be surplus to requirements? 
 Indeed, Jude himself endorsed the DAVE as an excellent DAC but didn't mention it's capability configured without an Amp-would that be a sensitive issue given some of the Sponsors of Head-fi ??
  
 Clearly, the DAVE is gathering excellent reviews as a DAC. What interests me , is it's use without a Headphone Amp.
 So, I posed the question on the current Impressions thread for the recent Socal. Now surely, if this product is as good as being said,(again I say, without Headphone Amp)then many Members would have had the chance to experience the DAVE, so configured, along side some other worthy, high-end products !
 Well, no response !! Unsure, what that tell's me??
  
 Anyway,I've just written to a UK Dealer for the DAVE, to fix up a audition. I should have already done so but had to pull out due to illness.This will be interesting!!


----------



## Articnoise

christer said:


> Interesting discussion.
> I am  since quite a while now,looking at possibly buying  a former chapel converted into a home to get a  much larger listening room for my electrostatics than I have now.
> Most I have seen for sale seem to have rather high ceilings like the height you mention, which I assumed  if not too reverberant,as good acoustically.
> As I see and hear it, big speakers need big space to sound realistic  on large scale  acoustic symphonic material.
> ...


 
  

 OT

  

 If I’m not mistaking you have a pair of Martin Logan Prodigy. They have a very small spreading angle compared to doom and woofer based speakers. A rather good feature then using them in many peoples listening rooms, as you can have them rather close to a side wall without losing much SQ. The spreading angle of the ML electrostatic panel is only 30 degree off-axis in width and even less up and down. The bass is done by a woofer which can spread up to 360 degree thou.  

  

 The shape, size and acoustics of the room is together with the placement of the speaker one, if not the most important SQ aspect in big speaker based system. In a “big room” you can let the ML breathe with sufficient distance to the front, rear and side walls which is critical if you want the best out of ML and many other speakers IME. Can the room get too big for the ML? Yes a too big room and you will need to push the speakers very hard. ML Prodigy is not made to be played super loud in an arena sized room. Compared too many woofers which can move several cm an electrostatic membrane can only move maybe 2 mm.    

  

 I have ones tried to play my old ML LS3 in a room that was around 70 sqm (normal ceiling height) at loud volume and it didn’t sound very good. The Prodigy is capable of playing a little louder, but not very much.


----------



## wdh777

There have been a few questions about using an apple CCK. Apple just released a new version that allows you to charge your device while using the CCK. I just got one and tried it with a Hugo tt and mojo and it worked great. I assume that same would be true on the Dave. Finally I can be listening and charging my device at the same time.


----------



## paulchiu

wdh777 said:


> There have been a few questions about using an apple CCK. Apple just released a new version that allows you to charge your device while using the CCK. I just got one and tried it with a Hugo tt and mojo and it worked great. I assume that same would be true on the Dave. Finally I can be listening and charging my device at the same time.


 
  
 Using iPhone as server with CCK is definitely an option and fun at that.  There are many things happening in the iPhone that may corrupt the data feeding out of the iPhone out of the CCK, into something as sensitive and transparent as the Chord Dave.  You also cannot run something like JRiver Media Center via the iPhone.  Although Onkyo HF Player with the premium HD pack is super for playing FLAC and higher bits files, the ergonomics of operating out of an iPhone at home is best using from a computer.
  
 Moding a Mac Mini with better power and fan control is probably better as a long term server for the Dave.  In fact, a well designed kit based from the Mini may be more functional than a dedicated commercial server and nearly as good sonically.


----------



## romaz

britneedadvice said:


> I've been following this thread for some time waiting for further impressions on the DAVE.Particularly,  configured as suggested by Roy(Romaz). That is, no Amp.
> I 've asked questions of some contributors to this thread(by way of PM) who  appear to have good experience with a vast array of Headphone Amps and also have acquired a DAVE, for their thoughts.
> Now, it may just be too early for some to express their views but there seems to be a lack of 'endorsement' that I would have thought it appears to merit???
> Is this because the reality may be that some are fearful of admitting that other expensive purchases may now be surplus to requirements?
> ...


 
 Hi David, good to hear from you.  It's not an easy thing to read through more than 2,200 posts but I do believe you will find that if you do, most DAVE owners who are using their DAVE for headphones are reporting that they are using the DAVE's headphone amp and not applying a separate headphone amp for headphone listening.  If you read Beolab's post from yesterday (post 2226), I think he pretty well says it all.
  
 I don't think it is necessarily a knock on the industry to be bypassing a headphone amp with the DAVE because if you think about it, the DAVE is more than a DAC, it is a DAC with an integrated headphone amp.  Why would anyone want to place an amp after an amp?  Obviously, the DAVE's headphone amp is unique in that it directly taps into the signal of the DAC and so there is no loss of transparency.  While there is no accounting for the personal taste of others who enjoy the flavor that their outboard amp might provide, if you value transparency, your best option is to use the DAVE's integrated headphone amp.  Rob himself has been quite clear about this.
  
 As you already own a very fine tube headphone amp, it would be best for you to make your own comparisons with your HE1000.  Living in England, I would imagine you have easier access to auditioning a DAVE than the rest of us.  The worst thing that can happen is that you realize you no longer need your headphone amp and you can then simplify your setup and put money back into your pocket.  It's not a bad problem to have.


----------



## Crashem

Romaz are you in the Bay Area?  Would love to compare the DAVE to this new Lampi GG I have.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## romaz

crashem said:


> Romaz are you in the Bay Area?  Would love to compare the DAVE to this new Lampi GG I have.
> 
> Thanks!


 
 I'm not that far from the Bay area.  PM me and we'll see if we can make it happen.


----------



## britneedadvice

Hi Roy
  
 Audition date set !
 Yes, auditioning the DAVE in the UK may be easier but the opportunities to do A/B tests against some of the High-end products are not !
 Like you have previously stated,auditioning the Meridian in the US is not so easy.
 So, 'what's best' may just be based on what's available??
 Anyway,I shall soon find out!
 Cheers


----------



## longbowbbs

britneedadvice said:


> Hi Roy
> 
> Audition date set !
> Yes, auditioning the DAVE in the UK may be easier but the opportunities to do A/B tests against some of the High-end products are not !
> ...


 
 Bring your checkbook...


----------



## Crashem

romaz said:


> I'm not that far from the Bay area.  PM me and we'll see if we can make it happen.


 

 Awesome.  My BHSE is due in today or tomorrow.  Be awesome to compare the HD800 vs HD800S.  You can listen to what a STAX setup can do as well.  Only issue is my GSX MKII is on loan to a friend.  Ill see if I can get it back.


----------



## romaz

crashem said:


> Awesome.  My BHSE is due in today or tomorrow.  Be awesome to compare the HD800 vs HD800S.  You can listen to what a STAX setup can do as well.  Only issue is my GSX MKII is on loan to a friend.  Ill see if I can get it back.


 
 Looking forward to it.


----------



## shuttlepod

I just spent two weeks listening to the DAVE in a generous in-home audition here in Seattle. When the local rep dropped it off, the DAVE was still in the box, fresh from the factory. This was apparently the first DAVE to make it to the American Pacific Northwest. I mostly ran it 24/7 so that by the end of the audition, it had about 300 hours.
  
*How I Got to this Point*
  
 Before getting to my impressions, a little background and context. I discovered the DAVE (and this head-fi thread) because I decided, after ten years as an audiophile, to take the plunge into serious head-fi. I initially dismissed the DAVE as too expensive. Then I read a few posts claiming that DAVE was immune to the quality of everything in the audio chain that precedes it – assuming, of course, that it is being fed bit perfect information. It seemed like an outlandish claim, but it got my attention.
  
 My original plan was to buy a top headphone amp and headphones, something like the ALO Studio Six or Cavalli Liquid Gold or a GS-X, and pair it with headphones in the $1500-$3000 range. Then I would tackle my next project:  finding a top-notch source that would feed my Ayre QB-9 DSD dac. I was prepared to spend between $3000 and $8000 on said source, an Aurender or Antipodes or something similar. I was getting tired of applying sonic band aids like Jitterbugs, Regen, etc. Eventually, in a year or two, I figured I would replace the Ayre with something better.
  
 [An aside on the subject of music servers and their ilk:  the upcoming Sonore microRendu may be poised to disrupt the server market. It promises many of the benefits of a dedicated high-end music server in an incredibly small package for $640, plus it can serve as a Roon endpoint (and works with other software). Even the microRendu, however, appears to need a really good linear power supply to perform at its best. A good USB cable will likely still be a necessity. So we are still looking at a $1000 to $3000 expenditure, in addition to the computer and Ethernet cabling you will still need to make it work.]
  
 The DAVE upended my thinking. Specifically, DAVE’s alleged immunity to source components and its inclusion of a reportedly excellent headphone out created the tantalizing possibility that I could forget about the quality of the source, stop my search for a standalone headphone amp, and buy a dac now, all in one compact, attractive, space-saving package. Yes, the DAVE is very expensive. But when I subtracted what I would spend on a very good source and cabling and standalone headphone amp, DAVE looked like it might be a real value proposition—but only if it made music at a very, very high level. Frankly, I was skeptical of the claims made on this thread by those who belong to the “cult of DAVE” (no disrespect, only humor, intended).
  
*Musical Priorities *
  
 Like most folks here, I don’t pretend to understand the technical explanations provided by Rob Watts, but I love the fact that he’s so active on this site and he occasionally provides valuable insight to non-technical people like me. For me, it’s all about musicality. I’m a music lover first, a French horn player in a previous life, and a regular patron of symphony, chamber music, and jazz concerts. I’m a musical omnivore and my collection of about 4500+ albums spans the gamut of musical taste. During the two-week audition, I was able to hear a Seattle Symphony concert and a recital by pianist Jeremy Denk. (A word to classical music lovers:  if you get a chance to hear Denk, go. This was one of the best concerts I’ve ever attended, period.)
  
 My musical/sonic priorities are these:
  

       I want/need to understand the musical intent of the performers
       Listening should be an emotional experience; if I find that I’m thinking too much about the “sound,” then that’s an indication something is off
       Tone is critical, in terms of color or timbre, but especially in terms of density and substance; digital tends to shortchange tone
       Immediacy and presence are close cousins to tone; I want to hear performers in the room in terms of immediacy, but the stereo system should recover all the air and ambience of the venue when appropriate
       Resolution is important, but not at the expense of a natural, fatigue-free listening experience
  
 Through the years, my analog system has bettered my digital system in each of the above areas, though of course it all depends on the quality of the recording, source file, and/or vinyl pressing.
  
 One further point: When I’m auditioning any new component, especially a major purchase like a dac, turntable, speaker, etc., my ears had better tell me within the first few minutes or first few tracks whether this is a change for the better. If I have to spend hours debating the merits of a change, well, it’s probably not worth it.
  
*First (and Lasting) Impressions*
  
 Ok, so is DAVE all its cracked up to be? First, the usual disclaimers:  I don’t claim to have wide experience with the world’s best dacs, I’m a relative headphone newbie (though I listened mostly through my two-channel system), this is my ears and my system, etc., etc.
  
 I let DAVE warm up for half and hour before sitting down and listening (yep, I’m impatient). For the first twenty minutes, I was unimpressed. Then I discovered I had not readjusted the audio settings in Roon for my new device. After adjusting, it took me about 30 seconds to decide that this was a completely new and, in my experience, unprecedented level of digital playback. This occurred about an hour after opening the box from the factory. That impression has not wavered once during the two-week audition.
  
 Don’t get me wrong – DAVE is not a miracle worker in the sense that it will transform a bad recording into something different. DAVE’s degree of improvement varies quite widely with the quality of the recording, and if your interest in music means you don’t often play really well-recorded music, or if you don’t have a very resolving system, you are not going to experience the best DAVE can offer. DAVE really shines on well-recorded material, whether that’s Redbook or DXD.
  
*DAVE’s Alleged Immunity to Noise*
  
 To test DAVE’s immunity to noise, I had to settle on some experiments with USB cables and USB band aids, as I did not have access to multiple music servers. My basic source is a 2013 MacBook Pro laptop running Roon/Tidal (via wifi), with a standard external hard disk drive holding 2.5 TB of music. The laptop and hard disk are noisy, both physically and electrically. I own a very nice Audience USB cable ($900) that outperformed a Light Harmonic Lightspeed cable in my system. With the Ayre, both of these cables were big upgrades over an older Transparent USB cable. Further improvements were made when I added an Uptone Audio Regen and two Audioquest Jitterbugs.
  
 I listened to DAVE in four different USB cable scenarios:  1) with the cheap “Made in China” USB cable that Chord supplies with the DAVE; 2) with my older, $90 ten-foot Transparent cable I bought in 2009; 3) with the Audience cable; and 4) with the Audience cable plus Regen plus Jitterbugs. After spending about three hours swapping cables and listening to the same five or six familiar selections, I had to conclude:  I could detect no difference. For the remaining duration of the audition, I listened with my old 10-foot Transparent cable, which allowed me to move my computer that much further away from the other components.
  
 It’s funny – you see the el cheapo cable that comes with DAVE and you think – it’s a throwaway, why did they do that? It turns out it’s brilliant proof-of-concept marketing.
  
 The caveat to my immunity experiment is that I did not have a variety of music servers to play around with, so I can’t personally comment on whether these might make a difference. But based on the reports of most others here (especially Roy (Romaz)), my thought is that the DAVE is either immune or largely immune to sources. If there is some sonic benefit to an $8k Aurender N10 or $16k W20, or for that matter a much less expensive Sonore microRendu with LPS, it had better be clearly audible and a significant upgrade. By the way, Romaz deserves a special shout-out for his intelligent and insightful posts and his generosity in responding to a few PMs from me.
  
 While I had the DAVE, I also had the Hugo TT in house from the local Chord rep. I’d never heard the TT before (or any Chord dac, for that matter). The TT was already burned in. On the question of source immunity, I already knew that my Ayre QB-9 DSD dac’s performance varied significantly with different USB cables and USB band aids. I did some quick A/B tests switching out the various cables on the Hugo TT. I found that the cheaper USB cables resulted in a harder, glassier sound.
  
*Comparisons*
  
 Ok, how about overall sonic comparisons between the three dacs I had on hand (you know, the missing part of so many reviews we read in publications)?
  
 First, a few words about the Hugo TT and Ayre. I like the Ayre and I still think it’s an excellent dac for its current $3450 asking price. Compared to the Ayre, the Hugo TT was, in my opinion, a better dac. The difference was not night and day, but the TT was more resolving, had a lighter and brighter tonality (without etch), had more precise transients, and was just more emotionally involving. The Ayre had a more rounded sound, with a warmer midrange. On piano, the TT resolved fast passages better than the Ayre, which slightly blurred runs of notes. I think some people would find the Ayre more to their taste because the tonal character is different and it might be more synergistic in a given system, but in my system the TT was the better dac. A friend who will soon be in the market for a dac and thus was keen to hear the Ayre vs. the TT reached the same conclusion, finding the TT to be both more detailed and smoother. Of course, it is also the more expensive dac (currently $4795).
  
 How about the TT and the DAVE? I was particularly interested in this comparison as at least a few folks have stated that they think the TT is the sweet spot in Chord’s lineup and that differences between the DAVE and TT may not be all that great.
  
 My ears tell me differently. There is a very wide chasm between the DAVE and TT. The delta is *much* greater than the difference between the TT and the Ayre. Night and day difference. This difference is more apparent with higher quality recordings, but it is unmistakable with just about any recording, at least in a resolving system or with high-quality headphones.
  
*What Sets DAVE Apart*
  
 Here is what makes the DAVE so special to my ears:
  

       First and foremost, it generates tone that is dense, colorful, and true to life; there is a solidity and materiality to the tone that distinguishes it from any dac I have heard. Some on this thread have referred to DAVE’s “purity” and I think we are probably hearing the same thing. I do not hear the tone as either warm or cool, dark or light. Rather, it is vibrant, vivid, and realistic.
  

       There is immediacy and presence in spades; the musical intent of the performers is readily, obviously apparent. Barriers to emotional involvement are broken down.
  

       Clarity and resolution is stratospheric on well-recorded music, especially of the recording venue. This is very apparent on well-recorded, hi-rez orchestral music. For example, percussion is extremely tactile and vivid, and you have a very precise sense that the instruments are located in the back of the hall. You do not pay a sonic price for all of this resolution in terms of an analytical, “microphone-centric” presentation. Rather, the feeling of vibrant, smoothly flowing music is pervasive.
  

       All instruments sound wonderful and realistic, but well-recorded grand piano is sublime. Dynamic contrasts (especially micro dynamics) are where so much of the emotional power of music lives and DAVE delivers big-time.
  

       Voices are “right there.” One surefire hallmark of a dac’s resolution is when you find that you are hearing certain lyrics for the first time because they were previously obscured.
  

       Bass is vastly improved. I am not a basshead, and my speakers are not truly full range, but I consistently heard bass lines that had been lost in the muck before. I am fairly certain that DAVE is not actually producing more bass, although subjectively that seemed to be the case with certain recordings. Rather, my theory is that DAVE cleans up all the frequencies, and the improvement in the power zone of 100 hz to 400 hz allows the mid-bass and bass to come through with more clarity and impact.
  

       DAVE eliminates or reduces a harshness that previously accompanied treble response or very loud passages in certain recordings. We’ve probably all experienced those recordings where you turn down the volume or cringe for 10 seconds until a shrill or highly dynamic passage is over. Two examples:  1) American mezzo-soprano Susan Graham has a lovely recording of French songs (La Belle Epoque – The Songs of Reynaldo Hahn) that is generally well-recorded but contains louder passages in Graham’s upper vocal register that were previously unpleasant in their digital harshness and glare. With DAVE, I actually turn up the volume on this album and revel in the increased dynamic range without shrillness.  2) With DAVE, I am able to experience the full dynamic range of certain hi-rez, mostly live recordings of big symphonic pieces. For example, the dynamic range of something like Mahler 5 with MTT and the San Francisco Symphony is gigantic. DAVE lets you listen to the fff passages without cringing. At the same time, it is so quiet and resolving that the nuances of ppp passages are clearly discernible. Sometimes this is more apparent on headphones (my listening room has an ambient db level that typically ranges from the low 30s to the low 40s depending on time of day). The same ability to deal with recordings of very wide dynamics is a revelation with some big band jazz recordings, e.g., the Maria Schneider Orchestra. To hear so deeply into complex music is a pleasure.
  
 I had three audiophile friends over a few nights ago, all of whom were familiar with my system. After hearing the DAVE for 10-15 minutes, they firmly instructed me: “Buy that dac.” To say that they were marveling at the DAVE’s contribution to sound quality is putting it mildly.
  
*A Digression on Analog and Digital*
  
 One of these friends asked me if, in the event I purchased the DAVE, I might listen a lot less to my vinyl record collection. I told him I thought not, but after two weeks of listening to really good digital, you wonder what analog will sound like when you fire up the turntable. Not to worry. I’ve had a few analog listening sessions since the DAVE departed, and I’m happy to report that analog retains its magic. Sonically, my analog system does certain things better than even DAVE. First, there is a texture, tactility, and dimensionality that just sounds different, and I would say, better, than digital. Flesh and blood tone. Second, there is a continuousness or natural flow to the music that just kind of washes over you and that I find puts me in a more accepting, open frame of mind when listening. Finally, there is a kind of natural bloom to analog that sounds real and pleasing. Having grown up with vinyl, I also find that it tends to trigger more memories, which for me and a lot of other audiophiles is a big part of the experience.
  
 Of course analog has all sorts of technical problems and I’m not going to get into a digital/analog argument, as all of these points are subject to debate and personal taste. Keep in mind that, even assuming a purchase of the DAVE, I will have spent at least $10k more on the analog side of the equation, so my analog setup had better sound really good. I have a fantastic turntable/cartridge setup guy, which is essential unless you are really good at doing that yourself. For many people, vinyl is just a pain in the butt. I kind of like the rituals.
  
*Operational Modes and a Few Minor Complaints*
  
 Ok, sorry for the detour – back to the DAVE. I played with DAVE’s signal phase mode late in my audition. I was surprised to hear some familiar cuts sounding a little better when switching phase from positive to negative or vice versa, and so I think this is a useful feature worth further exploration. With regard to the high frequency filter, my observations here are with it turned off. When I toggled back and forth with this mode late in the audition, I heard no difference on a handful of tracks.
  
 Do I have any nits? I don’t like the fact you have to manually switch between PCM and DSD, and wait the 20 seconds or so until DAVE resets itself. I have playlists that contain tunes from both formats and switching is an inconvenience. You absolutely must do this, however, to get the most out of your DSD recordings – it sounds markedly better in DSD mode. Sometimes when I was in one or the other mode, I would forget to switch back to the correct mode. I didn’t find the remote particularly useful. And I don’t like the fact that I won’t be able to listen to vinyl on headphones, but that would of course mean we are back to a standalone headphone amp and a presumptive loss of transparency. None of these are deal killers.
  
*What about Head-Fi?*
  
 Bear in mind that maybe 75% of my listening was with my loudspeaker system. That’s what I’m most familiar with and, despite inevitable room interactions, it was quite easy to discern the differences between the DAVE and the other dacs (or any dac I’ve had in my system). It’s early in my high-end head-fi days, but I suspect headphones will likely remain secondary in my listening hierarchy. That said, I did spend some quality time with 1) a well-burned in HE1000 with a copper Purity Audio Impresa cable and 2) a brand new HD800 with stock cable. Most of my listening to the HD800 was done after it had been played for 150 hours or so.
  
 Although I’ve listened to headphones for years, I am new to both of these headphones and super high-end head-fi in general. Both phones were very enjoyable and mighty impressive with the DAVE. I expect personal preference would drive a given listener’s choice. Physically, the Sennheiser was more comfortable on my head, and that’s always an important consideration. Putting aside comfort, I personally preferred the sound of the HE1000; it is a great pairing with the DAVE. Tonality differed between the two phones, with the HE1000 leaning slightly to the warm side and the HD800 slightly to the cool. The HiFiMan sounded a little more relaxed, a little softer on the transients, and overall perhaps a little more natural than the Senn. The Senn gave an impression of intoxicating clarity on some music and I can hear its appeal. I have read that some consider the HE1000 too soft, but I found it plenty incisive with the DAVE, and perhaps a closer approximation to how acoustic music sounds in a real space. Then again, maybe some of these differences can be chalked up to the fact that the HD800 was unmodified, with stock cable, and had relatively low hours. Or maybe it’s my subjective taste. In any event, I'm buying the HE1000.
  
 I did not do a lot of headphone listening with the Hugo TT, but for the most part I thought it was very, very good. Not as refined or precise or pure or detailed as the DAVE, but something I could easily live with given a little hedonic adaptation. With certain music, I did not like the synergy between the HD800 and the TT – there was a shrillness to some brass, a thinness to the sound.
  
*Power and Isolation*
  
 With respect to power, I used an Audience Au24 SE LP power cord ($1080) on the DAVE, connected to an Audience aR6 TSSOX power conditioner ($6450), which is itself on a dedicated circuit. I didn’t experiment with other power cables. I have been very happy with Audience power products through the years.
  
 With respect to isolation, I used three Stillpoints Ultra Minis ($375) under the DAVE on an IKEA bamboo cutting board ($15). Stillpoints have made a big difference with most components in my system and I use the Ultra SS (combined with the IKEA boards) under my speakers, power conditioner, and amplifier.
  
*One More Audition*
  
 After this rave review, you have probably assumed I already have my new DAVE on order. Not yet. When I spend this kind of cash, I feel like I need to do my due diligence, and so I have a Schiit Yggdrasil on order. Schiit has a 15-day audition and return policy (minus a 5% restocking fee, which I find reasonable). Schiit makes the audition process easy, and that cannot be said for some of DAVE’s other competitors. I was hoping the Yggy would arrive during the DAVE audition, but Schiit appears to be running a little behind on their orders and I probably won’t have the Yggy until early to mid-April or so.
  
 If you are thinking that this will not be a fair fight, you are right. I understand the Yggy is sensitive to what comes before it, and I won’t be able to pair the Yggy with a top notch source. Moreover, I will be using the USB input of Yggy, which I understand is not its best input. And my audio memories of the DAVE won’t exactly be fresh.
  
 Realistically, I don’t expect the Yggy to compete all that closely with the DAVE. But I am open to the possibility that it could happen – my expectations have been wrong before – and I find it hard to ignore the opinions of so many others who have found the Yggy to punch way above its weight. Plus, I’m just curious. I suppose I could try to audition something like the TotalDac or Rockna or MSB or a dozen other summit-fi dacs. But I have little interest in spending more than $13k on a dac, or even half that, unless it (a) has a killer headphone out; and/or (b) eliminates the quality of the source from the equation.
  
 So in another month or so, I will follow up this post with another (shorter!) post about my impressions of the Yggy. If the Yggy turns out to be a true giant-killer (DAVE-killer?), more power to the Schiit boys.
  
*Final Thoughts*
  
 Only a crazy audiophile could say this, but DAVE appears to be an outstanding value. When you realize that you are buying a world class dac/headphone amp/digital preamp without the need for a fancy and expensive music server, an audiophile grade USB cable, separate linear power supplies, various USB tweaks, a transparency-robbing standalone headphone amp and associated cables, isolation tweaks on the non-dac boxes, grounding boxes and cables, rack space, and all the headaches that accompany these extras, the DAVE value proposition is evident.
  
 You can run Roon/Tidal on a stock computer and ultra cheap USB cable. Or, if you have Ethernet in your listening room, you can get the computer and hard disk or NAS out of the room and invest $355 in a Sonore SonicOrbiter SE and run Roon/Tidal through a tiny component with no sonic penalty and, most likely, a sonic benefit. (For an inexpensive way to even further isolate your system from noise carried on the Ethernet signal, see Romaz’s post #281 on the “Comparison of 5 High End Digital Music Servers” thread.)
  
 With the DAVE, Rob Watts has created something really special, something that advances our understanding and appreciation of music. Bravo!


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## ecwl

Shuttlepod, sounds like you have a preamp in your speaker system because of vinyl. You really need to listen to DAVE without preamp in a speaker system. You'll be surprised by the loss of transparency from the preamplifier. This loss of transparency is often noticeable even in Hugo or Mojo.


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## TomNC

> Only a crazy audiophile could say this, but DAVE appears to be an outstanding value. When you realize that you are buying a world class dac/headphone amp/digital preamp without the need for a fancy and expensive music server, an audiophile grade USB cable, separate linear power supplies, various USB tweaks, a transparency-robbing standalone headphone amp and associated cables, isolation tweaks on the non-dac boxes, grounding boxes and cables, rack space, and all the headaches that accompany these extras, the DAVE value proposition is evident.


 
 It is hard to believe first, but bases on some simple calculation, my mid-level system (a Melco N1A server + VEGA + a tube amp) costs about $8~9K. That is not too far from a market price of Dave. I would have thought Dave is decisively out of reach for me. But if I spent wisely....


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## bmichels

crashem said:


> Awesome.  My BHSE is due in today or tomorrow.  Be awesome to compare the HD800 vs HD800S.  You can listen to what a STAX setup can do as well.  Only issue is my GSX MKII is on loan to a friend.  Ill see if I can get it back.


 
  
 will be VERY interested to read your comparaison  DAVE>BHSE>Stax   V/S   DAVE>HD800 direct


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## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> I just spent two weeks listening to the DAVE in a generous in-home audition here in Seattle. When the local rep dropped it off, the DAVE was still in the box, fresh from the factory. This was apparently the first DAVE to make it to the American Pacific Northwest. I mostly ran it 24/7 so that by the end of the audition, it had about 300 hours...


 
 Well done, Jon, and an excellent read!  Even if you ended up not liking the DAVE or should you find the Schiit Yggy more to your liking, it's hard not to respect your conclusions given the detail you provided regarding your perspective and preferences and that you did indeed perform your due diligence!  As we both use live music (mostly classical) as our reference, it becomes easier to relate to your descriptors and I agree with just about all of your points.  As you have stated so well, with the DAVE, it is the recording that matters the most.  Feed it a highly compressed or even a mediocre studio recording and the DAVE will make the most of what's available but the difference against another DAC may not be anything to write home about.  Feed it something well performed and well recorded, regardless of complexity and the reward will be there.  Can the DAVE surpass the vinyl experience with the proper recording?  Probably not if part of your enjoyment is tied to the ritual of manually flipping through your library, removing a vinyl disc from its jacket, queuing it up and enjoying the album cover while you listen.  There is certainly something to be said of such rituals.  Of course, there is also something to be said about enjoying how something sounds, flaws and all, because it is familiar and because you equate it with good memories.  Can the DAVE, fed with a well recorded 24/192 file match the technical aspects of what vinyl has to offer?  On paper and with newer recordings, it would seem to me that the DAVE should be _at least_ as good as any analog media, especially since most recordings these days are being recorded digitally to begin with.
  
 I have received more than a few PMs questioning what I am hearing with the DAVE because their experience with the Hugo was only so so and since the DAVE and Hugo share the same DNA, how can the DAVE really sound that good?  Well, between the Hugo and the DAVE is the difference of 150 DSP cores, more than 125,000 taps (digital sampling filters) as well as a chasm worth of difference between their noise shaper performance in addition to superior RF rejection.  It would be like asking how good can the MSB Select II sound when the MSB Analog only sounds so so.
  
 I have received many PMs questioning how it's possible the source player truly doesn't matter any further with the DAVE or how it's possible that a generic USB cable can sound as good as a much more expensive one or how it's possible that USB can sound good at all since it is such a flawed standard and so it is good for other people to comment on this as you have done so nicely.  The DAVE truly forces you to rethink all that you know about high end audio setup and tuning and I find this as remarkable as how good it sounds.  
  
 You mentioned the Sonore microRendu and while this soon-to-be-released server, IMO, has the potential to rival even the finest music server regardless of cost, with the DAVE, you could get by with much less and be just as well off.  I am using Sonore's less expensive ($300) Sonicorbiter SE with wonderful results and while I could easily use my Mac Pro with equally good results, both Sonore servers conveniently match the DAVE's playback capabilities, from 24/768 PCM to DSD 512 whereas a PC or Mac maxes out at 24/192 and DSD128 with Roon.  
  
 One thing you didn't mention was what headphone amp you use with your Ayre QB9 DAC?  One question that seems to come up again and again is how is it possible the integrated headphone amp in this compact sized DAC that is smaller than a shoe box, which has no tubes and comes with an integrated switching power supply could possibly sound better than some $10,000 tube amp with its expensive NOS tubes and outboard linear power supply?  Well, no matter what I or Rob or anyone else who owns a DAVE say, people don't believe it and they're already looking to pair the DAVE with another amplifier even before they've heard the DAVE.  Certainly, a separate amp can bring a certain warmth or bloom or delicacy that the DAVE does not provide and an amp can even provide more drive for certain headphones, but as Rob has said more than a few times, if holographic *transparency* is what you are after, then you cannot do better than the DAVE's integrated headphone amp and so what I would take home from your experience as well as my own is to try the DAVE by itself first and only proceed with purchasing an outboard headphone amp if you feel you need it.  
  
 Regarding value, considering I have been able to sell of my expensive music servers, my expensive grounding box, my expensive line conditioner, several expensive mains cables and digital interconnects and my big expensive rack and still have better SQ than I have ever had before, the only thing that I can think of with more value for the dollar than the DAVE would be the Mojo.


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## rgs9200m

Just curious if, Shuttlepod, you have heard any high end CD players from, say, Esoteric, EMM, Playback Designs, Meridian, Dcs, etc. (even if not in your own system)? If so, any thoughts on these vs. the Chords? Thanks.


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## rkt31

@shuttlepod, great post. I am curious as to why did you chose yggy to compare with Dave ? will it be like 'yggy is extremely close to Dave with much lesser price ' thing ?


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## oscarnr

Hi to all of you.
I have been reading this thread for a time and it has been very informative. I have an order on a Chord DAVE mainly to use with speakers (and for my Hifiman HE1000). Source will be a mac book pro with Amarra and IRC>Tellurium Q black Diamond USB.McIntosh C2500 as preamp and MC542 as power amp.The speakers are Focal Scala. Would you connect the DAVE direct to the power amp? No analog source in my system.I am using a Chord Hugo as DAC now.
Best regards
Oscar


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## Rob Watts

Absolutely - the best sounding pre-amp is non at all.
  
 Some pre-amps perform the function of bandwidth limiting, but this is not needed with Dave, as there is no significant out of band output from Dave, so nothing to upset the power amp with.
  
 Rob


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## sasbyte

Wow, superb system..Dave direct to power amp will work very well.


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## rkt31

has anybody tried Dave direct to benchmark ahb2 power amp in low gain mode ? I use my Hugo with this amp and I would say the amp is very neutral and transparent with extremely low noise !


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## oscarnr

sasbyte said:


> Wow, superb system..Dave direct to power amp will work very well.




Thank you!



rob watts said:


> Absolutely - the best sounding pre-amp is non at all.
> 
> Some pre-amps perform the function of bandwidth limiting, but this is not needed with Dave, as there is no significant out of band output from Dave, so nothing to upset the power amp with.
> 
> Rob




Thank you very much, Rob. I will try DAVE direct to power amp


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## ecwl

oscarnr said:


> Thank you!
> Thank you very much, Rob. I will try DAVE direct to power amp




I think you should try Hugo direct to power amp too while you wait for DAVE.


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## oscarnr

ecwl said:


> I think you should try Hugo direct to power amp too while you wait for DAVE.



Hi. I tried it some time ago with good results (although I didn't do any critical comparation) when my preamp was out for repair. But I like the convenience of a remote and a good control of volume. I also used an analog input then (but not now). DAVE has a remote control so no problem with that.


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## mtoc

Rob, would you tell us why the built-in preamp from Dave is so good? And the secret of digital vol-control is?


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## rkt31

I would also like to know how the volume control is performed in digital domain. with Hugo directly into power amp, the sound is very transparent even at extremely low volumes which is very unlike analog volume control. analog volume control loses decipherablity very quickly at lower volume, wonder what is the reason for that . is it the impedance of analog volume pot ?


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## rkt31

I meant resistance !


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## Beolab

@shuttlepod
  
 Thanks for your great and insightful review, im in on your findings and points.
  
 Just one question when you wrote that you had to adjust some settings in Roon to get the sound correct, so just out of curiosity what settings in Roon where you referring to ?
  

  
  
 Have a great Easter
  
 / Fredrik


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## shuttlepod

ecwl:  You are correct, I do have a preamp in my system because my Crayon CFA 1.2 is an integrated amp where the preamp cannot be bypassed. And yes, I’m sure there is some loss of transparency vs. going directly into a very transparent amp. The Crayon, however, is a very transparent integrated, so I’m not sure how much I’m losing. I may find out when Rob and Chord come out with their digital amp, which appears to promise greater transparency than any conventional amp. One benefit of using the Crayon is the remote, which is more useful than Chord’s remote.
  
 Of course when I was using the HE1000s I was getting the full benefit of DAVE’s transparency.
  
 Romaz:  Thanks for the kind words. Folks really need to hear DAVE to understand the delta between DAVE and Chord’s other dacs (and other dacs). You noticed that I didn’t mention what headphone amp I had been using with my Ayre QB-9. That’s because for the last year I haven’t been using a headphone amp with that dac. Instead, I’ve been limping along with an HRT Microstreamer straight out of my computer. My headphones are also quite old:  AudioTechnica 1000s from about 8-9 years ago. I used to pair those headphones with a Yamamoto headphone amp, which was a soft, technicolored sound, but certainly pleasurable as far as it went. Then I paired them for a while with a Bakoon integrated amp with excellent headphone out. I’ve heard some really good cans at some shows, but it’s fair to say my head-fi experience is very limited compared to most on this forum. On the other hand, I can approach the whole head-fi experience with “beginnner’s mind,” which is not a bad thing at all. All of this will be changing as I have already ordered an HE1000.
  
 You mentioned that a PC or Mac maxes out at 24/192 with Roon. I may be wrong about this, but I thought I was able to play DXD (24/352) with Roon using my MacBook Pro. Initially, I noticed that when I played DXD, DAVE downsampled to 24/176. Then I went into Roon’s audio settings and checked “Disabled” under Roon’s Max PCM Sampling  (it had been set at “Up to 24/196”). Once I did this, DAVE indicated that the file was playing at full DXD (24/352).
  
 rgs9200m:  As I mentioned in my review, I have not had much experience with SOTA dacs. I have heard a Playback Designs dac in a (literally) million dollar system. Interestingly, digital compared unfavorably to the SOTA vinyl and reel-to-reel playback in the same system. Bottom line, however, is that I have very little experience with very expensive dacs so you can take my opinions with a grain of salt, I suppose. I think people who are interested in a DAVE should try hard to arrange a nice long audition if possible. Your ears are what matters.
  
 rkt31: Yes, I knew that my upcoming Yggy audition would strike some as a little off the wall, and you are absolutely right:  if the Yggy comes very close to DAVE at one-sixth of the price, well, wouldn’t it be a little foolish to pass on that opportunity? Not that I expect that to happen. But I think Schiit is an interesting company that’s really opened new vistas for a lot of people and I’m approaching it with an open mind.  
  
 Beolab/Fredrik:  Thanks. The settings I was referring to were the Audio settings that you find when you click on the little set of gears next to a particular Zone in Roon. These don’t show up in the screen shot you posted. But I already received a PM asking me about these settings, and here are the Audio settings I was using with DAVE:
  
 - Exclusive Mode = checked
 - Integer Mode = checked
 - Force Max Volume = not checked
 - Disable Vol Control = not checked
 - Max Sample Rate = either “Up to 192” if I'm using a dac where this is the max or “Disabled” for DAVE, which let me play DXD recordings (see my notes above in response to Romaz)
 - Resync Delay = Oms
 - DSD Playback = (DoP)
 - Max DSD = Up to 128; Roon does not do 256 yet 
  
 I hope this is helpful.


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## rgs9200m

Thanks for the reply Shuttlepod (and I enjoyed your exhaustive review; thanks for all the time you must have spent on it).


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## ecwl

One thing I've noticed from reading forums on Head-Fi or Computer Audiophile about Chord Mojo/Hugo/DAVE is that many people like to talk about how their headphone amp or preamplifier is very transparent or has great clarity with low noise floor so they don't believe removing the headphone amp or preamplifier will make a difference or will only make a small difference. My experience with Sanders preamplifier, Krell 280p, and Krell Evolution Two is that great preamplifiers tend to sound virtually silent so even when people upgrade to Chord DACs, they are not going to notice a lowering of the noise floor most of the time. However, the removal of the preamplifier tend to improve low-level signals which seems to me to improve micro-details, timbre, naturalness of the instruments and 3-dimensionality of instruments, soundstage width and depth. Also, analog preamplifications often have subtle channel differences/non-linearity. Removing the preamplification with the perfect matching of the left-right channels of Chord DACs, the centre instruments would snap right in the middle. I almost cracked up when my friend was wondering if his centre movie channel was on when we played directly through the Mojo to his amp because there is zero-linearity error between the left and right channels. He couldn't believe the vocalist was singing smack in the middle in front of him. Anyway, these are sometimes subtle changes that on quick A/B listening tests can be missed, especially through pre-amplifications. But the longer one listens to the Chord DACs without preamplification, the more easily these qualitative improvements can be heard. I truly believe people who say they don't find Chord DACs to be a major upgrade to their existing non-Chord DAC are probably having something else further down their signal chain that is limiting the ability for the DAC to shine or they haven't quite figured out what they should be listening for or to appreciate. Of course, we all have different preferences for speakers and amplifications so who is to say one's DAC preferences are valid or invalid...


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## ecwl

For me, the big question is, is my power amplifier transparent enough? And if not, what to upgrade to? Benchmark AHB2? NCore amp? A 5-figure amp that I currently can't/won't afford. And how do I know they're more transparent than my current amp? Best to wait for Rob Watts digital amp for now. Or become a convert and listen to headphones exclusively...


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## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> You mentioned that a PC or Mac maxes out at 24/192 with Roon. I may be wrong about this, but I thought I was able to play DXD (24/352) with Roon using my MacBook Pro. Initially, I noticed that when I played DXD, DAVE downsampled to 24/176. Then I went into Roon’s audio settings and checked “Disabled” under Roon’s Max PCM Sampling  (it had been set at “Up to 24/196”). Once I did this, DAVE indicated that the file was playing at full DXD (24/352).


 
  
 Yes, you are correct and so I have just learned something new!  So for those who don't mind having their PC or Mac in their listening room, then you're all set and with no limitations if USB is used.
  
 For those who would prefer not to have a PC or Mac running while listening to music or don't have space on their rack for a large music server, here is the dimunitive Sonicorbiter SE, a 2 inch (or 5cm) cube that can be inconspicuously hidden behind the DAVE.  It is the least expensive certified Roon Ready device commercially available (except for a Rasberry Pi).  Of course, if you choose not to use Roon, you have other options available with it.  You can pair it with a more expensive linear power supply but with the DAVE, the stock linear wall wart it comes with sounds just as good.  You would connect to your network using a CAT 5/6 cable (no wifi unless you use a wifi bridge) and then to the DAVE via USB (or optical).
  

 You could spend $16,000 for an Aurender W20, $8,000 for the Aurender N10 or $300 for this device and they will sound pretty close to the same on the DAVE.  Of course, unlike the Aurenders, the Sonicorbiter doesn't come with internal storage although for an extra $1,250, you can buy these 2 things:
  
 (1)  QNAP TS-251+ NAS with 6TB of storage (12TB storage max) that will run RoonServer now through virtualization (that means you won't need another PC or Mac running in the background).  This device can be left on 24/7 and consumes 10 watts when idle and less than 20 watts when in use and can be stored in a closet where you will never have to hear it. Should you choose to use it as a movie server, you can since it has an HDMI out port and that is why it comes with a remote control.  There are other NAS options but this is currently the least expensive NAS you can buy today that I am aware of that has powerful enough hardware to run Roon now - $750 with 6TB of storage ($450 with no storage)
  

  
 (2)  A lifetime subscription to Roon - $500
  

  
  
 Of course, you will need an iPad or Android tablet to serve as a remote control but that applies to the Aurenders also.


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## TheAttorney

I've now completed my second loan stint with DAVE. The jury has returned and the results are in.
  
 Some of my findings don't match up with the consensus so far. There are lots of reasons already stated why some people hear things differently to others. Irrespective of personal preference, in the past I've heard my own Yggy sounding  decidedly average, but currently sounding great. Same with my BHSE. Sometimes the differences resulted from seemingly minor adjustments to ancillary equipment. Nevertheless, it still does make me wonder when I get a different result to people who's opinion I value, like romaz for example. Whatever, the bottom line for me is to repeat one of my favourite hifi quips: "I have no option but to trust my own ears… because they're the only ones I've got".
  
 Anyway, the key objective for me was to decide if it's worth spending the considerable extra cash to replace my Yggy with DAVE. Using the following, unless otherwise stated: Nagra CDC -> AQ Diamond optical -> DAVE/Yggy/DSD -> TQ Black Diamond balanced i/c->  BHSE with metal base tubes -> SR-009. All fed by an Audience TSS power conditioner and a variety of audiophile power cords. Most of my listening was using female singer songwriter kind of albums - some mastered slightly "hot". I stuck with these because they are the ones I can most easily identify a component's strengths and weaknesses.
  
 So, hey ho, here we go:
  
*Round 1. Yggy vs PS Audio DSD*
 As previously reported, Yggy won this fight. Kind of a shame because I was hoping  the DSD would be  fairer opposition, at least pricewise, for the DAVE. Compared to either DSD or Nagra CDC's integrated DAC, the Yggy gave sound images a cleaner edge, great on transients and on making individual images stand out more clearly from the mix. Resulting in a bigger, more open and transparent soundstage. The Yggy doesn't mask poorer recordings, but the extra focus and clarity makes them overall more acceptable. This is not a night-and-day improvement over the other two (much more expensive) DACs, but deeply impressive in terms of VFM. 
  
*Round 2. Yggy vs DAVE*
 DAVE won this fight. I felt these two shared a similar neutral sound signature, but all the things good about Yggy were better still with DAVE. Even cleaner transients, even more micro details, more ambience fine details that define a more 3D soundstage. The Yggy had at least as big an overall soundstage and a touch more bass quantity, but DAVE more precisely placed the individual images within that soundstage and more accurately delivered a cleaner bass. DAVE was also kinder to poor recordings. For example, say a hot close-up recording of a female singer results in sibilance and a general "haze" of brightness in the upper mids. With DAVE, the sibilance peak is not masked in any way, but the haze across the rest of the soundstage is reduced, resulting in a sound where the full impact is preserved, but in a more natural overall setting. Yggy can do this too, but DAVE does it better.
  
 These were still not night-and-day differences and, if SQ was the only criteria, I don't think the huge price difference is worth it (unless money is no object). But SQ isn't the only criteria - there's functionality, practicality, usability, aesthetics, etc. I'm also prepared to accept that DAVE's more subtle charms may become more apparent over a longer time. So let's move on.
  
*Round 3. DAVE->HD800S vs DAVE->BHSE/009*
 This was a key fight if I was to consider downsizing from my overkill electrostatics setup to make use of DAVE's fabled direct-to-dynamics transparency. I didn't have long to wait, because as soon as the bell rang, the BHSE/009 rushed across the ring and thumped the HD800s. Very hard. The HD800s fell to the canvas in a blubbering heap, muttering something about not wanting to play with the big boys any more.
  
 Ok, so this is a bit of exaggeration for dramatic effect, but I'm not sure it's worth picking over the details when, on the one hand I'm hearing a very good recording via a good pair of headphones, and on the other hand I'm transported to the recording studio and being caressed by the singer's every vocal inflections. Maybe the HEK would be a better fit for the kind of sound signature I'm used to? That for another time. In the meantime, my downsizing aspirations have taken a back seat.
  
*Round 4. Digital input cable differences on the DAVE*
 I could only do optical in this round, as DAVE doesn't do RCA, and Nagra doesn't do BNC or USB, and I don't have any AES cables, and I didn't want to confuse the reference baseline by bringing in a laptop via USB.
  
 So I compared my loan AQ Diamond to a couple of modestly priced opticals from Monoprice and Fisual.
 The outcome was that I preferred the AQ. The difference maybe wasn't as large as it had been with Yggy, but it was there nevertheless, which  was a shame, as that has put a dent in the idea that I could save lots of money on the source in the future. Maybe the results with the other interface types would have been closer to group consensus, but that's for another time. 
  
*Round 5. Analogue output cable differences on the DAVE*
 I have previously determined that my fully balanced BHSE definitely prefers balanced cables, even when the source is fundamentally singled ended. And so it proved with the DAVE: replacing my balanced TQ Black Diamonds with the (more expensive) single ended Transparent Reference (previous generation) caused a loss in some of the transparency, openness and detail. No surprises here for me. 
  
*Conclusion*
 I really like DAVE as an overall package. The small size, the funky "cyclops" display, etc. When all the best components above were in place with a good recording, the results had more "you are there" magical experiences than ever before.And it got the best out of poorer recordings as well. So I've put in an order for one.
  
 The fact that some of the tests didn't give me the hoped for results may be partly due to sky high expectations based on the rave comments before. Based on what I've heard so far, I think suggestions that DAVE may rival DACs like the MSB Select may be a touch over enthusiastic. But in my own price range, it's a great sounding DAC that has lots of features that I've been waiting for.
 I started this particular upgrade journey by looking at the Nagra HD DAC/headphone amp, but got put off because they priced it so high compared to my elderly Nagra CDC and also increased its size and complexity with the external power supply options. So I got the Yggy as a holding position becuase it was so cheap in high end terms (and remains outstanding VFM). But from a different VFM perspective, DAVE is half the price of the Nagra HD, is more compact and has more features. How it compares sound wise I don't know, but I think I'll have enough to keep me happy for years.


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## lojay

Great impressions, Attorney. Thank you (and others like Romaz) for taking the time to write your impressions.

I have read somewhere that the USB input of the DAVE is superior to the optical inputs, so this may account for the differences. As for the HD800S sounding underwhelming, it's impedance curve may require a dedicated amplifier to sound right, whereas the HEK should be easier to drive with the DAVE's headphone output. Then of course the SR009 is naturally superior to the HD800 so it is hard to think that a better front end would do away with your entire electrostatic system.

Speaking for myself, your impressions have further confirmed that I really need to place an order for the DAVE.


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## lovethatsound

theattorney said:


> I've now completed my second loan stint with DAVE. The jury has returned and the results are in.
> 
> Some of my findings don't match up with the consensus so far. There are lots of reasons already stated why some people hear things differently to others. Irrespective of personal preference, in the past I've heard my own Yggy sounding  decidedly average, but currently sounding great. Same with my BHSE. Sometimes the differences resulted from seemingly minor adjustments to ancillary equipment. Nevertheless, it still does make me wonder when I get a different result to people who's opinion I value, like romaz for example. Whatever, the bottom line for me is to repeat one of my favourite hifi quips: "I have no option but to trust my own ears… because they're the only ones I've got".
> 
> ...


I hope you really enjoy your Dave when you get it,but i really strongly disagree with you about optical cables,I've tried 4 different optical cables with the Dave at different prices and their was and is no difference in sound quality.It could be you've got some kind of faulty Dave,or it could be your ears are playing tricks on you.


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## Beolab

theattorney said:


> I've now completed my second loan stint with DAVE. The jury has returned and the results are in.
> 
> Some of my findings don't match up with the consensus so far. There are lots of reasons already stated why some people hear things differently to others. Irrespective of personal preference, in the past I've heard my own Yggy sounding  decidedly average, but currently sounding great. Same with my BHSE. Sometimes the differences resulted from seemingly minor adjustments to ancillary equipment. Nevertheless, it still does make me wonder when I get a different result to people who's opinion I value, like romaz for example. Whatever, the bottom line for me is to repeat one of my favourite hifi quips: "I have no option but to trust my own ears… because they're the only ones I've got".
> 
> ...




Yes DAVE vs MSB Select II comparison is what we are waiting for. 

I got the DAVE and have heard the MSB Select II on a speaker setup, so it is hard to do a judgement.


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## britneedadvice

This thread is becoming compelling reading for any Head-fier whether they are considering the purchase of a DAVE or just 'looking in' with interest. !!
 When many of the threads on this site are too concerned with back-slapping or back-stabbing , the contributors to this thread are clearly 'hard-nosed' reviewers of a new product which is questioning the 'standard' in Headphone use!
  
 Thanks must go to Roy(romaz) who has 'driven' this thread for some time and provided us all with his clear insight into this new product and his impressions of it and how best he considers it to be 'configured', Excellent reviews from Jon and now Richard with many constructive inputs by many.
  
 So, just where does these reviews leave me? Totally bloody confused , that's where !!!
  
 However, if reviews have the purpose of making you get off your backside and try something new,then these impressions have made me realise that's what I need to do !!....and that's coming from someone who's both reluctant to bother and satisfied,with what I've already got!! The DAVE appears to be that kind of 'thought provoking, bar -setting' product.
  
 I said I was "confused". Well, only because there seems to be some mis-matched comparisons to make the reviews totally worthwhile,( for me that is.) .However, I appreciate comparisons can only be made with products at ones own disposal.
  
 I intend to audition the DAVE soon and if initial impressions are good will move to a direct comparison with what I have....and by God I hope I don't like it as it's going to cost me !!


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## Priaptor

lojay said:


> Great impressions, Attorney. Thank you (and others like Romaz) for taking the time to write your impressions.
> 
> I have read somewhere that the USB input of the DAVE is superior to the optical inputs, so this may account for the differences. As for the HD800S sounding underwhelming, it's impedance curve may require a dedicated amplifier to sound right, whereas the HEK should be easier to drive with the DAVE's headphone output. Then of course the SR009 is naturally superior to the HD800 so it is hard to think that a better front end would do away with your entire electrostatic system.
> 
> Speaking for myself, your impressions have further confirmed that I really need to place an order for the DAVE.




Where in the States can you "test drive" a Dave and/or purchase one


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## Christer

Spoiler: Mod Edit: Please put long quotes in spoiler tags or edit them to be shorter. 






shuttlepod said:


> I just spent two weeks listening to the DAVE in a generous in-home audition here in Seattle. When the local rep dropped it off, the DAVE was still in the box, fresh from the factory. This was apparently the first DAVE to make it to the American Pacific Northwest. I mostly ran it 24/7 so that by the end of the audition, it had about 300 hours.
> 
> *How I Got to this Point*
> 
> ...


 
  


 Thanks for a very interesting review of  DAVE.
 Together with what romaz and some others have said it actually says more and is more relevant to me than the pro review by Andrew Everard in HIFI NEWS. Yes I was tempted to make an exception and buy my first HIFI Magazine in many years.
  I was foolishly tempted both by the Dave review and also the promised "EXCLUSIVE" vinyl versus digital special. The magazine was sealed here in KL so I had to buy it, otherwise I would just have browsed it in the shop.
 Both the review and the exclusive vinyl/digital are nothing special to read as usual from HIFI mags these days imo!
 The exlusive amounts to basically nothing more than mentioning in a couple of lines that both analogue and digital are capable of delivering  music!
 As if no one knew that before!
 Typical of british Hi Fi mags, saying nothing much at all, which is why I normally don't buy them since many years.
 And as mentioned  here measurements are  more  confusing  than elucidating.
 Unlike your very specific  and detailed preferences and musical examples the HI FI News  review  is  really lacking in many respects.
 A bit surprising knowing that Everard used to be at Gramophone and one would expect him to have better examples of dynamics than a CBS recording from the early 60s!
 Yes Wagner's music especially Siegfrid's death ,which he mentions, is very dynamic indeed.From  a light whisper to full blast fff with very loud percussion. But the recording he chose is not!
 Rather  loud yes. But  not particularly dynamic.
 There are modern near full dynamic range  recordings of Wagner's music from several labels that offer a much more realistic dynamic range than the I would guess at the most 50-55 dB CBS could record on tape and without dolby in the early 60s.As THE  example of a really exceptionally realistic recording of the same music from the analogue age, nothing beats the direct cut Sheffield Labs LP. Some of the most realistic string sounds ever recorded,yes ever imho, plus very loud percusssion rendered without bandwidth limiting and other compromises of  most digital, and a dynamic range around 70-80 dB.
 As so often there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding as to what a big dynamic range is even among reviewers like Andrew  Everard.
 It has to be said though that even CBS made some  balance-wise pretty good recordings like  basically everyone else in the late 50s and early 60s before they f....  everything up completely when they started their all dead acoustically ,multimiking era which was when I stopped buying  their recordings.
 Now Mahler's 5th from MTT/SFO  that you mention or for that matter Fischer's and the BFO's or actually the technically  best modern recording of that work in its 24/192  masterfiles version from Acousense here we are talking real dynamic range !
 I prefer Karajan's BPO mid 70s Mahler 5 on DGG as being the best musically tightly followed by MTT and Fischer . But no other recording of the work  I have heard,is as realistically recorded as the German  Acousense especially via Dave and HE1000 directly.
 Back on topic of Dave again, a couple of hours with reference material and both HD800 and HE1000 convinced me that it is very special indeed.
 But alas very  very expensive,for me at least.
 I am kind of hoping that the predictions of someone here of a portable battery powered Dave with 50000-60000 taps at a more digestible price is just  around the corner.
 Finally what happened to Rob Watts' post where he trashed the  Yggy a couple of hours ago?
 Cheers Chris  enjoying live symphonic music  at rehearsals and concerts on an almost daily basis these days.


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## TheAttorney

lovethatsound said:


> I hope you really enjoy your Dave when you get it,but i really strongly disagree with you about optical cables,I've tried 4 different optical cables with the Dave at different prices and their was and is no difference in sound quality.It could be you've got some kind of faulty Dave,or it could be your ears are playing tricks on you.


 
 I doubt if DAVE's optical input ia faulty because I heard the same (maybe magnified) differences with Yggy. Of course I'm suseptible to mind tricks when subjectively comparing anything. We ALL are.
 When I get my own DAVE in a few weeks time, I'll redo this comparison (the dealer is very patient for loaning me the AQ for so long). Whichever way it goes, I'll report back as I hear it. In the meantime, I stand by my review.
 Believe me, I reallly _wanted_ to hear no difference because it would save me lots of money.


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## Christer

theattorney said:


> I doubt if DAVE's optical input ia faulty because I heard the same (maybe magnified) differences with Yggy. Of course I'm suseptible to mind tricks when subjectively comparing anything. We ALL are.
> When I get my own DAVE in a few weeks time, I'll redo this comparison (the dealer is very patient for loaning me the AQ for so long). Whichever way it goes, I'll report back as I hear it. In the meantime, I stand by my review.
> Believe me, I reallly _wanted_ to hear no difference because it would save me lots of money.


 

 Hello I may have missed some of your earlier posts, but in your review you fail to mention even once, what music and what  recordings and  what resolutions you listened to.
 All your review  tells me is that you obviously like both Dave and the Yggy. But it gives me no musical  references to go by at all.
 By most other acounts plus Rob himself, it also seems that  usb will deliver the ulimate SQ of Dave which you haven't used at all if I understand things correctly?


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## lovethatsound

theattorney said:


> I doubt if DAVE's optical input ia faulty because I heard the same (maybe magnified) differences with Yggy.Of course I'm suseptible to mind tricks when subjectively comparing anything. We ALL are.
> When I get my own DAVE in a few weeks time, I'll redo this comparison (the dealer is very patient for loaning me the AQ for so long). Whichever way it goes, I'll report back as I hear it. In the meantime, I stand by my review.
> Believe me, I reallly _wanted_ to hear no difference because it would save me lots of money.


Hi TheAttorney
I'VE done tests with digital cables optical and usb and so have many other people on here and no one has heard any difference,that is because there is no difference,Rob watts says there's no difference,so what you have heard i don't know.I do know that alot people won't be happy with a piece of equipment that don't need expensive cables and sources.


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## TheAttorney

@Christer, there's me thinking I was very clear in spelling these things out, exaclty what components I used and why.
 Yes my earlier posts would have helped you, but anyway my source is a Nagra CDC, which is a CD player (with integrated preamp and headphone amp), which means that all my listening done was using CDs.
  
 I listened to a wide variety of rock/pop music (and occasionally classical) over time in this comparison, but in the last period I did state that I focused on female vocals, particularly slighlty hot masterings.Some examples:
  
 Temptation - Holly Cole (example of a more natural than most style of recording)
 Girl in the other room - Diana Krall (good recording, but slightly hot)
 London Grammer (typical modern sound)
 Songbird - Eva Cassidy (natural instruments, often hot vocals)
  
 By hot I mean closely miked, hyped up, often with losts of reverb. An unbalanced system can cause trouble with this kind of sound, but a well balanced system can take it in its stride.
  
 I hasten to add that I do listen to all type of music, but these are some of the ones I often use for comparisons.


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## Christer

theattorney said:


> @Christer, there's me thinking I was very clear in spelling these things out, exaclty what components I used and why.
> Yes my earlier posts would have helped you, but anyway my source is a Nagra CDC, which is a CD player (with integrated preamp and headphone amp), which means that all my listening done was using CDs.
> 
> I listened to a wide variety of rock/pop music (and occasionally classical) over time in this comparison, but in the last period I did state that I focused on female vocals, particularly slighlty hot masterings.Some examples:
> ...


 

 Thanks for your clarifications.
 Although they still leave me a bit confused.
 Regarding your choice of music I am not really familar with  anything you mention more than Diana Krall.
 Nor do I understand what you mean by "typical modern sound" at all?
 By "natural instruments" do you mean acoustic instruments  or only more "naturally"  mic'd than the "hot" voice as you term it? 
 Does  "lots of reverb" refer to real acoustic reverberation  and decay from instruments playing or a voice singing in an acoustic venue? Or do you mean the electronically added, artifical reverberation so common in the pop rock genre?
 But thanks anyway.
 It  seems to me that you have not really put Dave or for that matter your comparison DAC  Yggy, really to the test if you are only using rbcd quality pop/rock material.
 My guess would be that  if you get the masterfiles instead of playing the cds via your ever so  expensive cd player, directly via Dave and usb, you would hear both more of what Dave is really capable of and what's  been recorded in the studio more accurately and realistically too.
 If I am not wrong Diana Krall's recent recordings are actually from 24/96 masters?
 She seems to be  filling concert halls both here in KL and Singapore during her tour this spring.
 Cheers Chris


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## romaz

I have enjoyed very much Shuttlepod's and The Attorney's reviews and comparisons over the past few days.  I find more value and enjoyment in posts like these than anything I can read in a magazine as they represent honest and real world experiences by earnest individuals looking to actually own the product(s) they are talking about.  It also helps that they both shared their experience with other equipment and their general music preferences as it provides the reader perspective and a point of reference and perhaps some idea of whether the opinions expressed will be applicable to the reader's own situation.  

  
 Having been referenced in each of their reviews and with The Attorney perhaps not drawing the same conclusion that I have drawn about the DAVE (at least not to the same degree), as britneedadvice said so well, it leaves some confused.  Having been a participant of Tyll Hertsens' Big Sound 2015, it was interesting to read how each participant had very different ideas of what the best headphone and best headphone amp was and it left many skeptical about the value of the exercise because who do you believe?  This is where it becomes appropriate to utter the line "YMMV" and "you really need to hear it for yourself" but for those who don't have an easy opportunity to hear a piece of equipment for themselves, then at least find someone who you feel you can relate to who shares your preferences and has similar ancillary equipment.  In my own experience, this advice has worked well and I am better off because of the honest opinions provided by many of you.
  

 As some of you have PM’d me indicating that you have ordered a DAVE or will be ordering a DAVE based on things I have said, it has left me wondering (or at least hoping) that I have steered you in the right direction and that I have set your expectations appropriately.  I have tried to be fair and balanced about my reporting but understand that my opinions are my own.  I have no affiliation with Chord as some have suggested.  I waited 10 weeks to receive my DAVE and paid for my DAVE just like everyone else.  While the DAVE is unequivocally the finest headphone DAC I have heard and may well be the finest DAC period (open to debate and further comparison), should something better than the DAVE come along, just like I did with the TotalDac, I would not hesitate to move on.

  
 For those that don't know my preferences and my experiences and are perhaps wondering if my opinions are even applicable to your situation, I will try and do as good a job as Shuttlepod and The Attorney have done and then you can make up your own minds.  Like Shuttlepod, I have broad interests in music but 75% of what I listen to is classical.  I can listen to Mahler all day long but I especially enjoy music from the Baroque period.  It is what I grew up on and what I consider “comfort food.”  As a piano player and a former clarinet player, I have an affinity for woodwinds in general and for piano and organ music.  A certain head-fier has questioned why I have such a need for my headphones to portray top quality bass, well, it's because of the organ.  I love large orchestra in grand venues and small ensembles in small intimate venues.  My wife and I will often travel just to experience music.  Two years ago, we traveled to London from California to hear Salonen conduct Mahler's 8th at the Royal Albert Hall with its grand Mander organ.  Just recently, we returned from Australia where we enjoyed a spirited performance of _La bohème_ performed at the Sydney Opera House.  We are frequent patrons of the Sacramento Philharmonic, Disney Hall in Los Angeles and the Hollywood Bowl, just a few of our favorite venues.  We are also season ticket holders of our local symphony and just so you know the caliber of our local organization, our season opened with Joshua Bell accompanied by Sam Haywood.  As my brother loves jazz, we are frequently found at jazz clubs together.  Chick Corea, Branford Marsalis, Herbie Hancock, Bela Fleck – just a few of our favorites.  Yes, I love live rock and pop, especially in big arenas.  U2 performed at the Los Angeles Coliseum in 1987 and is the finest rock concert I have attended.  Coldplay would rank as #1 for me as my favorite concert in recent memory with John Mayer and Maroon 5 not far behind.  As a child of the 80s, the British invasion from that decade (The Smiths, Depeche Mode, Duran Duran, U2, The English Beat, The Cure, Queen) is as good as it gets and I saw just about all my favorites live.  As for acoustical vocal performances, yes, I absolutely love these and because we have a nice acoustical space in our home, we often host live concerts.  If there is one pattern I want you to catch, it is that I love love love live music.  Is the DAVE with my collection of headphones an equal substitute to live music?  Not a chance, not even close, but what I am getting now is as close to real as I have experienced.
  

 As to how I evaluate my equipment, I try and keep it simple and I look mainly for 4 things:

  

 (1) Tonal richness and balance.  For me, these are qualities you don’t have to look for because you know when they’re absent.  I have never found myself at the symphony or at an acoustical performance and wished there was more bass or a less peaky treble or wondered why the choir sounded flat and yet when these elements are missing while listening to audio gear, you notice right away.

  

 (2) Dynamic contrasts.  In the same way that Shuttlepod recommended going to see Jeremy Denk perform, I would offer a similar endorsement for Alessio Bax, a talented up and coming pianist that offered a performance I won’t soon forget.  I wasn’t so impressed by how dynamically he could play as this is a quality shared by many pianists I have heard but how well he could play softly.  In a similar way, I am not as impressed by how good a certain piece of equipment sounds loud but how well it plays soft and how well it goes from loud to soft or vice versa and it is often in these transitions where I find the emotion in a performance.  I’m looking for nuance and texture and this inner detail is often best appreciated during the quieter passages.  Lovethatsound suggested that I like to listen to my headphones very loud but really, this only applies to live musical performances with large dynamic range where I’m trying to glean the subtle detail.

  

 (3) Harshness and brightness.  They’re not necessarily the same thing but they affect me in the same way.  Sometimes it’s digital hash, sometimes it’s RF noise but sometimes it’s just my personal sensitivity to something.  It’s not always evident right away but you know it if you can’t listen for hours because it leads to fatigue.  Sometimes it’s the recording but more often, it’s the equipment.  For me, it can be evident with certain headphones (HE-6, Abyss with stock cable, unmodified HD800, SR-009 on certain amps), poorly designed or constructed cables, high power solid state amps and many DACs.

  

 (4) Depth and Air.  Having shared my penchant for live performances, this quality is perhaps what is most important to me.  When I go out of my way to attend a musical performance at a certain venue, it is generally because I want to hear the acoustics and the natural resonances of that venue.  I would never buy tickets to a studio recording, for example.  I would do just as well to buy the CD.  Stern Auditorium at Carnegie Hall is said to have a reverberation time of 1.8 to 2 seconds whereas Alice Tully Hall (also in New York) has a reverberation time of 1.4 to 1.5 seconds.  Carnegie seats 2,804 and is one of the largest world-class music venues while the Alice Tully seats a more intimate 1,086 and so it has only a fraction of the air present at Carnegie.  Alice Tully is reported to sound fast, focused and full bodied without being bloomy while Carnegie is noted for its rich, sweet, blended and warm properties.  If I’m listening to a performance that was recorded at Carnegie Hall, I want to feel like I’m at Carnegie Hall!  IMO, this is the most difficult thing for audio equipment to convincingly portray and it is this singular characteristic more than any other that caused me to sell my TotalDac and buy the DAVE.  Show me something that conveys depth as realistically as the DAVE and I will buy it (if I can afford it) and to date, I haven’t heard a DAC that can do it as well.  With 2-channel, you can sometimes use the resonances of your listening room to create a sense of depth but to my ears, it sounds artificial.  Same thing goes for DSP.  With headphones, some convey acoustical ambience better than others but this is a feature that I equate as the responsibility of the DAC more than anything else. As I evaluated the $7,000 TotalDac d1-single to the $10,000 d1-dual to the $25,000 d1-monobloc, the main differentiator as you moved up the chain was depth and air and it was worth it to me to pay monobloc money for it.  With the d1-monobloc, the tonal richness and balance were there and with its very low noise floor, so was the low level detail, texture and nuance.  There was no reason to leave the TotalDac for these reasons.  While the TotalDacs sound a bit drier in comparison to the DAVE, there was certainly no harshness.  Certainly, this was not a reason to leave the TotalDac either.  While the d1-monobloc had this intoxicating sense of space that allowed the music to breathe and come to life compared to the lesser TotalDacs, the DAVE just did it better still and more realistically.

  

 During my day with Tyll at Big Sound 2015, he was surprised at how well I did with the blind listening tests. 

  

 http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/big-sound-2015-wrap-my-take-headphone-amps#LJxmW5C53PdKjW5I.97

  

  This was a test where we were challenged to differentiate between a Bakoon HPA-21 current drive amplifier, Apex Teton tube amp and a Moon Neo 430HA solid state amp connected to an HE-1000 and HD800 while blinded.  Only one track was played, a male Brazilian vocalist singing in Portuguese, and it looped continuously.  It was a track none of us were familiar with and while it was a studio recording, it had ambience to it.  While you would think this wouldn’t be a difficult series of tests, out of 30 tests, most participants, Tyll included, scored closer to about 50%.  I scored 93% and answered incorrectly only twice (during the first trial when I wasn’t real familiar with the process and during the last trial when fatigue had set in).  Tyll asked me what I was hearing that allowed me to tell the amps apart and I told him each amp portrayed a different amount of “air.”  To my ears, it was the only difference I could lock in on.  In all of my listening, I have become very tuned in to this quality and it’s the first thing I look for and the first thing that I notice is missing.

  

 If there are some that suggest they can’t tell the difference between the DAVE and another DAC, it’s possible you are comparing a studio recording without much depth (most studio recordings have very little real depth) and the DAVE won't artificially create depth that isn't there.  If you want to see just how good the DAVE can be, I suggest a good modern 2-microphone hi-res recording (24/192 minimum) of a large orchestra in an appropriately large venue or at the very least, a good live recording of an acoustical performance (the less amplification, the better).

  

 I hate to say it because this is a touchy subject but I’ll do it anyway because it may represent another reason why someone doesn’t appreciate what the DAVE can offer.  As I stated above, some headphones portray depth more convincingly than others.  Closed headphones do it better than IEMs and open headphones do it better than closed headphones (in my experience).  It was one criticism I had with the HiFi News review of the DAVE.  They showed a photo of the DAVE connected to an Audeze LCD-XC, a very fine headphone if it is what they used in their review but a closed headphone is not the best way to showcase the spatial abilities of the DAVE.  With open headphones, I have not heard a headphone that portrays depth and air better than the HE-1000.  While I have fatigue issues with the Abyss (that I’m hoping can be overcome with a better cable), the Abyss portrays this acoustical ability well also even if it is not to the same level as the HE-1000 to my ears.  Unfortunately, I have not found electrostatics to portray convincing depth.  Having once owned an SR-009 and having recently listened to the SR-009 again (but also the new Mr. Speakers Electrostatic, HiFiMan Shangri-La and Orpheus HE1060), there is no comparing the clarity and detail that these headphones portray but the depth I hear is not as good as what I get with the HE-1000 or even the Abyss.  To be fair, I have yet to hear any electrostatic headphone driven by the DAVE and so I will withhold final judgement until that happens (hopefully, it will happen soon thanks to @Crashem) but my feeling is that it won’t be as good especially since you are forced to use an intermediary amp between the DAVE and an electrostatic headphone.  Regarding the HD800 (or at least my HD800S) that The Attorney connected directly to the DAVE and compared against the SR-009, I know I might get roundly criticized for this because of the popularity of this fine headphone and again, this is my opinion so take it for what it’s worth, but this is a very flat headphone, even flatter than electrostatics and in no way can compare to the clarity and immediacy of the SR-009.  The HD800 has a wide soundstage but very little depth.  Many studio people use this headphone for mixing and mastering and rightfully so, because this headphone doesn’t editorialize and has very accurate timbre, but as I stated, most studio recordings are flat to begin with and so headphone depth is probably not a concern for these professionals.  When I listen to my HD800S, I feel like I am in the rehearsal room sitting alongside the orchestral performers as they rehearse but with the HE-1000 (and the Abyss), I feel like the orchestra has moved on to the Carnegie Hall stage and I am sitting 7th row center where I am enjoying the acoustics of the venue.  I’m not suggesting the HD800 is anything less than a SOTA headphone nor is it not worthy of the DAVE because for some things (like imaging and soundstage width), it is superior but if we are talking about depth, I stand by my claim.  

  

 I know not everyone will agree with my assessment and that's ok.  I'm not here to try and change anyone's mind if they have already made up their mind about the DAVE or to try and convince you to buy a DAVE if you're already happy with your DAC but for those who are earnestly searching for a DAC, then maybe my perspectives might be of value.  I know others will have their chance to audition the DAVE for themselves soon and I hope you will offer your fair and honest assessment of it here.  I’m sure Chord would love nothing more than to have the whole world proclaim their love for the DAVE but I’m sure they are realistic enough to know that just isn’t realistic.  If anything, it may push Rob to create something even better one day.


----------



## Jawed

Please, everyone who agrees with Romaz: don't quote the entire post just to say you agree. Or to say thanks.


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## izzard1982

romaz said:


> I have enjoyed very much Shuttlepod's and The Attorney's reviews and comparisons over the past few days.  I find more value and enjoyment in posts like these than anything I can read in a magazine as they represent honest and real world experiences by earnest individuals looking to actually own the product(s) they are talking about.  It also helps that they both shared their experience with other equipment and their general music preferences as it provides the reader perspective and a point of reference and perhaps some idea of whether the opinions expressed will be applicable to the reader's own situation........


 
 Romaz, so which headphone you use the most with DAVE? I have had DAVE for a little over three weeks and still in the process of break it in. I use a HD800 now and have HD800S and LCD4 on order, after reading your post, I'm wondering if I should try HE1000 as well as soundstage depth is also very important for me.


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## Priaptor

Interesting review about the DAVE with some remarks about using it as a "DAC" v. Direct.
  
 http://highfidelity.pl/@main-645&lang=en
  
 Some of the comments run contrary to some of the reporting made by owners on this site.  While reviews have their downfalls, this guy put it through the ringer acknowledging just how amazing of a DAC it is and making some incredibly bold claims compared to some of it's higher priced competition.  
  
 All the more I would love to get one of these in my home to listen and compare to my MSB Diamond.  As a HUGO owner I absolutely love it in my headphone rig.


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## TheAttorney

lovethatsound said:


> Hi TheAttorney
> I'VE done tests with digital cables optical and usb and so have many other people on here and no one has heard any difference,that is because there is no difference,Rob watts says there's no difference,so what you have heard i don't know.I do know that alot people won't be happy with a piece of equipment that don't need expensive cables and sources.


 
 I'm disappointed with this post, considering I have regularly stated that I was looking forward to DAVE enabling me the opportunity of saving money on source and cables.
 I was going to give a robust response, but I think I'll just "let it go". People sometimes disagree on the internet. Yes, it really does happen - it's not necessarily a bad thing.


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## oscarnr

priaptor said:


> Interesting review about the DAVE with some remarks about using it as a "DAC" v. Direct.
> 
> http://highfidelity.pl/@main-645&lang=en
> 
> ...




Thank you, Priaptor. Interesting review. The preamp topic is very subjetive, since he compared DAVE directly to power amp with DAVE to a preamp -Ayon Spheri III- (to power amp) that costs 3 times DAVE price, and even results are slightly confusing. Using Hifiman HE-6 as headphone test does not seem the most common approach, either.


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## TheAttorney

> Originally Posted by *Christer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> It  seems to me that you have not really put Dave or for that matter your comparison DAC  Yggy, really to the test if you are only using rbcd quality pop/rock material.
> My guess would be that  if you get the masterfiles instead of playing the cds via your ever so  expensive cd player, directly via Dave and usb, you would hear both more of what Dave is really capable of and what's  been recorded in the studio more accurately and realistically too.


 
 I think I've answered this in the course of this thread, and I don't like to bore long term readers by repeating a resume at every other post. But just to clarify where I'm coming from:
  
 All my serious listening is done with CDs. Although I also have redbook flac files for portable use.
  
 For a long time I've been aiming to move to some form of server based system, but I haven't yet found the right one for me. Maybe when all servers come with sufficient capacity SSDs, rather than spinning discs, then I'll have more to choose from.
 In the meantime, I rather enjoy playing CDs (rather like the tactile vinyl ritual) and you can get them pretty cheaply these days, so I'm in no great hurry.
  
 In preparation for the inevitable, I have been looking for a more modern DAC that will improve on what I've got, plus allows me to experiment with computers/servers, i.e. the DAC must at least have a USB input, which of course most do these days. But I'd still like it to be small and as integrated as possible.
  
 The obvious step up from my Nagra CDC would be the new Nagra HD DAC. But it's off my radar because I didn't like the increase in both price and size.
 I got the Yggy as stop gap because it was cheap and because it sounded better than the integrated DAC of my Nagra CDC.
 But the Yggy is full size, looks a bit bland to my eyes and doesn't have a headphone section. Therefore enter DAVE!
  
 So finally to answer your question, it's not my intention to "put DAVE through its paces" because I've only got CDs to play with. I'm sure DAVE will be just fine with all sorts of hi rez files in the future. I've taken that as given based on all the reviews so far. All DAVE has to do for me right now is get past the first hurdle, which is to sound better than what I already have. And in that it has succeeded enough for me to put in an order, albeit with some disappointments on some of the details.
  
 So I can't help if my review hasn't covered enough bases, and I didn't mean to cause as much confusion as I appear to have done, but if nothing else I've at least reminded everyone that YMMV even with something as perfect as DAVE.


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## rgs9200m

jawed said:


> Please, everyone who agrees with Romaz: don't quote the entire post just to say you agree. Or to say thanks.


 
 I wish there was some sort of software change in headfi to (severely) automatically limit or truncate a quote. I bet there is a tunable parameter to do this and maybe the moderators could look into this. I think the best thing would be to substitute a quote with a hyperlink to it. It would be great if the software could put this link in by itself when someone tries to quote something huge.


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## paulchiu

theattorney said:


> I think I've answered this in the course of this thread, and I don't like to bore long term readers by repeating a resume at every other post. But just to clarify where I'm coming from:
> 
> All my serious listening is done with CDs. Although I also have redbook flac files for portable use.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Definitely have an audition with the CDC to Nagra HD DAC using both power source.  I think the CDC is better sounding than my 44.1 files, for sure.  Higher res, I am not sure.  I would have added the CDC as well but I pretty much gave away my entire CD collection after ripping them years ago.  (looking back, a big mistake!)


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## Staxton

romaz said:


> I have enjoyed very much Shuttlepod's and The Attorney's reviews and comparisons over the past few days.
> 
> *. . . . *
> 
> ...


 
 I agree.


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## shuttlepod

Thank you Priaptor for the English translation of the Polish review in High Fidelity. I'd been looking for a translation for a while and could not find one. 
  
 I think it's useful to see the diversity of opinion out there regarding DAVE's attributes and how to get the most out of it. My personal opinion is that we should not be too quick to criticize when someone like the The Attorney offers his honest opinion and is open about how he formed that opinion. If he hears a difference when using different optical cables, I don't think anyone should get bent out of shape -- he is simply offering his honest opinion and that's all we should ask. Wojciech Pacula is certainly a very experienced reviewer and he brings his own peculiar vantage point (probably made even more peculiar by the difficulty in translating the Polish to English). For example, he concludes that DAVE is better when used with a preamplifier and also concludes that the headphone section is "not bad" and better used with an outboard headphone amp. Again, the tent should be big enough for a wide diversity of opinion.
  
 Despite these differences, there really does appear to be a general consensus among people who have actually listened to DAVE for an extended period of time and who report their impressions -- it is a special dac, among the very best.


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## rgs9200m

Has anyone listened to the Beatles via the DAVE? If so, I'd appreciate any comments. (They sound great and less notoriously peaky through the TT, for the record.) Thank you.


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## rkt31

if someone is not habitual of feeding recent chord DACs direct to a power amp, initially the dac can sound a bit forward ( there is more zest ) as I found when I fed Hugo to the power amp. but I think either there is a cable burn in for the change in balance of the sound or it may be brain burn in. but one thing is very sure the music that way sound much more transparent and fast , there is lot more insight. sound becomes more realistic !


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## lovethatsound

rgs9200m said:


> Has anyone listened to the Beatles via the DAVE? If so, I'd appreciate any comments. (They sound great and less notoriously peaky through the TT, for the record.) Thank you.


I've got the Beatles number 1s cd,I'll try it tomorrow for you


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## rgs9200m

Thank you! (I always assumed that equipment from the UK is tuned for Beatles music.)


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## esimms86

rgs9200m said:


> Has anyone listened to the Beatles via the DAVE? If so, I'd appreciate any comments. (They sound great and less notoriously peaky through the TT, for the record.) Thank you.




I've had my very own DAVE in my home for a very brief time now and have just a few hours listening under my belt. I plan to do some critical listening later on in the week but thus far all I've done is to pretty much listen for enjoyment for several hours in 2 extended listening sessions and with, so far, less than 20 hours on my way to (eventually) having a fully burned in unit.

Beatles-wise, I've only listened to parts of MMT. This is now where it gets complicated. So many of the Beatles recordings were produced differently. Abbey Road, for instance, is not produced with multiple bounced tracks, slowed down and speeded up tape, etc. like MMT. I actually prefer MMT with lesser DACs as DAVE is relentless(in my opinion) in detailing just how the individual songs were pieced together from overdubs and bounced tracks. The final tracks have so many pieces as, say, 3rd or 4th generation recordings due to the inherent limitations of trying to achieve such artistry with 4 track recorders and, in some cases, 1/4 track tape. I'm certain that LIB and Abbey Road would be a different experience given the more advanced multitrack machines that the Fab Four by then had at their disposal. The panned vocals to one side and instruments to the other formula used in Rubber Soul would make a whole other listening experience. And then there's mono... Anyway, I'd hate to be unfair in commenting further without more extended listening to a wider variety of Beatles recordings.

I did have a chance to listen to DAVE connected to the original Blue Hawaii(Justin built) and an SR009. I plan to do some level matched A/B listening later in the week with the HE1000 vs. the SR009. Preliminary listening with the BH/SR009, however, left me with an experience of similar high quality detail and real sounding instrument timbres but with a diminished soundstage(though subtle and not a deal breaker) with the SR009 setup. The SR009's, to me, are the more comfortable headphones for extended listening. While I favor the tube sound of the BH over the KGSSHV Carbon(which I owned and later sold - in spite of its better bass quality), with DAVE I've found "tube warmth" to be a noncritical factor when compared to the "naturalness" of the sound of DAVE with the HE1000. 

I can say that well recorded red book CD rips sound amazing through DAVE. Likewise, DSD optimized with DSD Plus. I have never heard vocals and piano sound so real through headphones. The natural decay of piano notes are uncanny and there is absolutely no question of when the foot leaves the keyboard pedal. Yes, DSD 256 is measurably better than DSD64, especially when the recording is spare. All I can say is, DAVE is a triumph. End game, game over.


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## rgs9200m

Thank you very much esimms86 for all that illuminating and interesting post. I loved reading that; it wasn't what I expected.  I always seem to learn new things on head-fi. I need to go back and listen to MMT now to see about this. Thanks again!


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## Christer

rgs9200m said:


> Thank you! (I always assumed that equipment from the UK is tuned for Beatles music.)


 

 Hmm, it seems you guys have not read Rob Watts' first blog post where among other things he reports once  listening to some Beatles master tapes and found them  horrible!
 Before  I am possibly being blasted and having a  post  deleted again, let  me clearly state that I love, REALLY LOVE most of the Beatles' music. They are imho one of the very very few"pop bands" whose music  will survive our generation as the great classical composers from Bach and onwards.
 Unlike so much else in that genre ,They actually made music!
 With few,very few, other exceptions they are basically the only pop group of my youth that I still listen to and really enjoy.
 But most of their recordings are mediocre at best from a technical standpoint.


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## Sonic77

rgs9200m said:


> Has anyone listened to the Beatles via the DAVE? If so, I'd appreciate any comments. (They sound great and less notoriously peaky through the TT, for the record.) Thank you.


 

 Beatles, sound great, ELO sound great, Rolling Stones sound great, Pink Floyd sound great, everything (Good Recordings) sound great out of the Dave Dac!
 I'm not anal like some people


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## esimms86

sonic77 said:


> Beatles, sound great, ELO sound great, Rolling Stones sound great, Pink Floyd sound great, everything (Good Recordings) sound great out of the Dave Dac!
> I'm not anal like some people




Fair enough, point taken, however, you can't "unhear" something once you've heard it. Interestingly, though the Stones recordings are not audiophile standouts, I find that, with DAVE, the layering of guitars is exposed as being more intricate than it sounded on previous listening with other DACs in play. Further, speaking as a guitarist, the raw sound of electric guitar is captured beautifully on "Let It Bleed." Jagger's vocals, on the other hand, are relatively muddled and nowhere near as prominent in the mix as one would expect.

Regarding the Beatles, it's nice to have reached my own conclusions with my own ears. The Beatles recordings highlight the experimental aspect of trying to get on tape the sound imagined in the composer's head with the suggestions/contributions of brilliant collaborators also added in. I easily resonate with John Lennon's statement later in his life, to the effect saying that he wishes he could re-record all of their music all over again. Just "imagine" what MMT and Sgt. Pepper would sound like recorded on a 24 track machine instead of 4 track.

Esau


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## lovethatsound

rgs9200m said:


> Has anyone listened to the Beatles via the DAVE? If so, I'd appreciate any comments. (They sound great and less notoriously peaky through the TT, for the record.) Thank you.


Hi m8
Just listened to the Beatles number 1cd using Dave with hd800 sounds really good,not peaky,some of stereo tracks are very left and right,but that's to expected with recording like these,all in all very good,nice and clear.


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## rgs9200m

Thanks Lovethatsound!
 As for Rob's comments, no I did not see Rob's mention of this; I'll look for the blog and thanks for pointing this out.
  
 As for the Stones, I consider it a major blessing that we have them on SACD. I've had many of these discs and they sound magnificent and better than vinyl to me since 2004 (via EMM SACD cdps).
 (By the way, the new Carly Simon sacds are also superb.  And the Doors sacds are great also. All as good as it gets to my ears fwiw, ahead of vinyl. And Carole King too.)
  
 Another tip for Chord users--try the Beatles Anthology set from 1995 on your Chord; I can't get over how fine and musical and sweet it sounds on my TT. (And it had great musical value too for Beatles fans.)
 And I ripped my huge Rhino British Invasion CD set for my Chord TT and it is brilliant, better than I ever heard it, and it also made me think there is synergy between Chord gear and this music somehow;
 such great music...
 (Maybe the Chord people test with it, but that's just speculation).
  
 Thanks for all the replies to my Beatles question.


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## speedracer1

esimms86 said:


> I've had my very own DAVE in my home for a very brief time now and have just a few hours listening under my belt. I plan to do some critical listening later on in the week but thus far all I've done is to pretty much listen for enjoyment for several hours in 2 extended listening sessions and with, so far, less than 20 hours on my way to (eventually) having a fully burned in unit.
> 
> Beatles-wise, I've only listened to parts of MMT. This is now where it gets complicated. So many of the Beatles recordings were produced differently. Abbey Road, for instance, is not produced with multiple bounced tracks, slowed down and speeded up tape, etc. like MMT. I actually prefer MMT with lesser DACs as DAVE is relentless(in my opinion) in detailing just how the individual songs were pieced together from overdubs and bounced tracks. The final tracks have so many pieces as, say, 3rd or 4th generation recordings due to the inherent limitations of trying to achieve such artistry with 4 track recorders and, in some cases, 1/4 track tape. I'm certain that LIB and Abbey Road would be a different experience given the more advanced multitrack machines that the Fab Four by then had at their disposal. The panned vocals to one side and instruments to the other formula used in Rubber Soul would make a whole other listening experience. And then there's mono... Anyway, I'd hate to be unfair in commenting further without more extended listening to a wider variety of Beatles recordings.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi esimms86,
  

 Thank you for sharing your experience especially with less than 20 hours of listening as I don't think I could control myself enough to begin organizing my thoughts to paper.  I've been watching this thread for a while now and I'm very impressed with the level of intellectual capital and individuals here with the unique ability to articulate such detailed thoughts that translate into some really outstanding information on this thread.  

  
 I'm really looking forward to your comparison using the BH/SR009 vs. Dave/HE-1000's.  I'm scheduled two weeks from this Friday to have my first listen experience with Dave in NYC and I honestly can't wait!  I've been thinking about a home system for a while now including the Lampi, BH or Dave and I hope this will help me decide.  I've been a two channel guy since I was the ripe old age of 12 and that was 4 decades ago.  I only stepped into the world of digital audio in April 2014 and my senses are very pleased that I did.
  
 Sincerely,
 Your friend in audio,
 -Speed


----------



## bmichels

+1   me too I'm looking forward to your comparison using the BH/SR009 vs. Dave/HE-1000's.


----------



## Sonic77

esimms86 said:


> Fair enough, point taken, however, you can't "unhear" something once you've heard it. Interestingly, though the Stones recordings are not audiophile standouts, I find that, with DAVE, the layering of guitars is exposed as being more intricate than it sounded on previous listening with other DACs in play. Further, speaking as a guitarist, the raw sound of electric guitar is captured beautifully on "Let It Bleed." Jagger's vocals, on the other hand, are relatively muddled and nowhere near as prominent in the mix as one would expect.
> 
> Regarding the Beatles, it's nice to have reached my own conclusions with my own ears. The Beatles recordings highlight the experimental aspect of trying to get on tape the sound imagined in the composer's head with the suggestions/contributions of brilliant collaborators also added in. I easily resonate with John Lennon's statement later in his life, to the effect saying that he wishes he could re-record all of their music all over again. Just "imagine" what MMT and Sgt. Pepper would sound like recorded on a 24 track machine instead of 4 track.
> 
> Esau


 

 That's too bad about how you feel about the Stones recordings. I must not be too picky, or  my hearing is not as good as yours.
 Have you heard John Lennons' Double Fantasy SACD? I think that sounds great.
 I just purchased Sennheiser 800's headphones, just to get my feet wet with higher end headphones, I may try others, but I didn't want to spend too much right off the bat.


----------



## ecwl

I was wondering if most of the Chord DAVE owners leave their DAVE on all the time or do you put it in standby mode? I used to leave my Chord QBD76HDSD on all the time so I just left the DAVE on all the time too. I did have the Display Mode set to 4 so that the display is off most of the time. Thoughts? Opinions?


----------



## esimms86

sonic77 said:


> That's too bad about how you feel about the Stones recordings. I must not be too picky, or  my hearing is not as good as yours.
> Have you heard John Lennons' Double Fantasy SACD? I think that sounds great.
> I just purchased Sennheiser 800's headphones, just to get my feet wet with higher end headphones, I may try others, but I didn't want to spend too much right off the bat.




I believe you may have misinterpreted my intent here. It's all good, however and I have no issues with your reply. First point is I love the Stones and I have SACDs(and SACD rips) of Let it Bleed, Exile on Main Street , Sticky Fingers an Beggars Banquet. I enjoy them all. Is the sound terrible or unenjoyable? To the contrary. Is it audiophile reference grade? No. Do I listen to music because I like the recording quality or do I listen because I like the music? Definitely the latter. Well recorded music is icing on the cake and I also love getting to know my favorite recordings better by listening with a superb DAC like DAVE. At the same time, we all have our favorite pieces that we return to gain and again because we love the music despite the fact that the recording quality leaves something to be desired.

No, I haven't had a chance to listen to Double Fantasy on a SACD but I would jump at the chance. The HD800's are great headphones and I look forward to checking out DAVE with my Stefan Art Audio modded HD800 set.

Esau


----------



## Christer

oscarnr said:


> Thank you, Priaptor. Interesting review. The preamp topic is very subjetive, since he compared DAVE directly to power amp with DAVE to a preamp -Ayon Spheri III- (to power amp) that costs 3 times DAVE price, and even results are slightly confusing. Using Hifiman HE-6 as headphone test does not seem the most common approach, either.


 

  Very subjective and confusing review where the reviewer contradicts himself more than once.
  In one paragraph he even states that some cd players sound better than DAVE, then says he isn't really sure!
 And  NOT EVEN ONE  REAL HI RES example of  large scale acoustic music!
 Well recorded ,large scale acoustic music is the only type of music that is COMPLEX enough to really sort the wheat from the chaff!
 How many times does that have to be said?
  Moreover the list of hi res files examples  in the review only consists of digitally remastered analogue material.
 So all he is doing when raving about DXD is how admittedly good analogue master tapes sound via DXD!
 Yes those  old Jazz recordings are good no  doubt about it.
 I have been to Stampen,heard the mastertapes, and know those recordings are very realistic.
 But he doesn't mention  any  modern native DXD recordings at all.
 And the only example of classical music at all is a  pretty bad low res  CBS digital recording from the 90s of  Glenn Gould playing Bach something every reviewer seems to think it is hip to state that they have.
 Yes piano can be very revealing too and is a very difficult instrument both to record and reproduce. But there are tons of  piano recordings that are just so much better than the CBS/Gould reviewers have been told to or feel it is their duty to mention.
  
 Rather typical of HI FI Mags these days.


----------



## lovethatsound

christer said:


> Very subjective and confusing review where the reviewer contradicts himself more than once.
> In one paragraph he even states that some cd players sound better than DAVE, then says he isn't really sure!
> And  NOT EVEN ONE  REAL HI RES example of  large scale acoustic music!
> Well recorded ,large scale acoustic music is the only type of music that is COMPLEX enough to really sort the wheat from the chaff!
> ...


I'VE read that review as well and have come to the conclusion that the Dave he use was not run in probably.From my own experience the Dave needs at least 600 hours run in time before you judge David's headphone out to a different headphone amp,and that goes for the dac as well


----------



## TheAttorney

Does the burn in time apply separately to the headphones section than to the DAC direct mode?
 My loan DAVE would have had much less burn in time in headphone mode, but I assumed both modes were much the same, other than a different socket and a digital volume control.
  
 BTW, I think I now understand at least partly why I didn't get on with the HD800S in my comparison review: I've since seen Tyll's frequency response graphs, which show the 800S to have a slight dip at 1khz and a big peak at 6khz. This could explain why I found female vocals to sound thin and lacking in body with these headphones, which the neutral DAVE would have had no impact on. I had also briefly tried my trusty old HD600's and they didn't have this particular issue, but of course they weren't as good as the HD800S in other ways. I think it was Jazz who advocates using an equalizer - this seems like one situation where an equalizer would help a lot.
  
 I don't think this frequency response issue was any way near the whole story to my comparison, but it would have been a contributing factor.


----------



## lovethatsound

theattorney said:


> Does the burn in time apply separately to the headphones section than to the DAC direct mode?
> My loan DAVE would have had much less burn in time in headphone mode, but I assumed both modes were much the same, other than a different socket and a digital volume control.
> 
> BTW, I think I now understand at least partly why I didn't get on with the HD800S in my comparison review: I've since seen Tyll's frequency response graphs, which show the 800S to have a slight dip at 1khz and a big peak at 6khz. This could explain why I found female vocals to sound thin and lacking in body with these headphones, which the neutral DAVE would have had no impact on. I had also briefly tried my trusty old HD600's and they didn't have this particular issue, but of course they weren't as good as the HD800S in other ways. I think it was Jazz who advocates using an equalizer - this seems like one situation where an equalizer would help a lot.
> ...


Hi Attorney
Yes the headphone section needs the 600 hours and of course this is running in the dac as well.If you go back through my posts on here you'll find i was using my headphone amp because to me at the time it sounded better,but after the 600 hour run it turned around and now i don't use my headphone amp anymore.Its all from the Dave now


----------



## lovethatsound

ecwl said:


> I was wondering if most of the Chord DAVE owners leave their DAVE on all the time or do you put it in standby mode? I used to leave my Chord QBD76HDSD on all the time so I just left the DAVE on all the time too. I did have the Display Mode set to 4 so that the display is off most of the time. Thoughts? Opinions?


Hi ecwl
I put mine in standby when not in use


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> Does the burn in time apply separately to the headphones section than to the DAC direct mode?
> My loan DAVE would have had much less burn in time in headphone mode, but I assumed both modes were much the same, other than a different socket and a digital volume control.
> 
> BTW, I think I now understand at least partly why I didn't get on with the HD800S in my comparison review: I've since seen Tyll's frequency response graphs, which show the 800S to have a slight dip at 1khz and a big peak at 6khz. This could explain why I found female vocals to sound thin and lacking in body with these headphones, which the neutral DAVE would have had no impact on. I had also briefly tried my trusty old HD600's and they didn't have this particular issue, but of course they weren't as good as the HD800S in other ways. I think it was Jazz who advocates using an equalizer - this seems like one situation where an equalizer would help a lot.
> ...


 
  
 Even at 500+ hours, I am still noticing subtle changes occurring with the DAVE although I recall it sounding consistently good at about 250-300 hours.  Since the headphone port is tied to the SE output of the DAVE, my guess is that the burn in hours for both headphone port and RCA out are equivalent while the balanced output could require its own independent burn in although this is pure conjecture.
  
 I am also noticing changes with my HD800S which has about 120 hours on it.  As I stated, I have been less impressed with it compared to the HE-1000 as it just sounds flat and thin in comparison, especially in the lower registers.  My experience has been that it is more the headphone cable that requires long burn in with headphones and since I am using the Silver Spore4 with the HD800S, I have assumed it has been sufficiently burned in for a while now.  Well, I have been running it continuously over the past 24 hours with my System Enhancer CD to try and convince myself that this headphone is worth keeping and I have to say it is opening up.  Depth is improving although still no where at the level of the HE-1000.  Bass presence seems to be improving also.  I will need to give this one more time.


----------



## Rob Watts

theattorney said:


> Does the burn in time apply separately to the headphones section than to the DAC direct mode?
> My loan DAVE would have had much less burn in time in headphone mode, but I assumed both modes were much the same, other than a different socket and a digital volume control.
> 
> BTW, I think I now understand at least partly why I didn't get on with the HD800S in my comparison review: I've since seen Tyll's frequency response graphs, which show the 800S to have a slight dip at 1khz and a big peak at 6khz. This could explain why I found female vocals to sound thin and lacking in body with these headphones, which the neutral DAVE would have had no impact on. I had also briefly tried my trusty old HD600's and they didn't have this particular issue, but of course they weren't as good as the HD800S in other ways. I think it was Jazz who advocates using an equalizer - this seems like one situation where an equalizer would help a lot.
> ...


 
  
 No, the only difference is PCB track and a different relay - its going through identical circuitry.
  
 On burn in with Dave in general - I am actually not 100% sure about this (that it has much break-in). My main unit has clocked up thousands of hours, but when I loaded the production code (which had some major sound quality improvements) I had the feeling it was sounding better and better, even 8 weeks after - and that can't be physical break-in. The difference in SQ was about a 30% improvement in depth. Part of it was that I was listening to new material, and I was hearing the better depth, part was simply enjoying the improvement (how long it takes to get used to a sound quality upgrade gives a useful clue to the magnitude or scale of the change). Maybe brain break-in, but perhaps not. When I get a brand new unit I will do a test against my old unit and get a feel for how much is physical break-in.
  
 On headphones - I get the impression that Dave allows you to perceive the strengths and weakness of differing headphones with ease - you will find that the differences between different HP are much more pronounced, and that you will end up re-assessing the relative merits of your headphones. So don't be surprised that you end up liking completely different headphones.
  
 Rob


----------



## romaz

Rob, could you please explain how the DAVE attenuates volume?  Does it occur in the digital or analog domain?  Is your noise shaper involved?
  
 With my previous DAC, it had a 60+ bit digital volume control and as you attenuated the volume, you would lose bit depth and eventually you would drop below the bit-depth of your recording (16-24 bits) which would then lead to loss of dynamic resolution but until that point was reached, the full dynamics were there.  At least, that is how I understood it.


----------



## JaZZ

ecwl said:


> I was wondering if most of the Chord DAVE owners leave their DAVE on all the time or do you put it in standby mode? I used to leave my Chord QBD76HDSD on all the time so I just left the DAVE on all the time too. I did have the Display Mode set to 4 so that the display is off most of the time. Thoughts? Opinions?


 
  
 Considering the warmth produced by it (hinting to the used electrical energy) I couldn't reconcile it with my conscience to leave it on all the time. I leave it on the whole evening till the end of my listening session(s), though.


----------



## JaZZ

I really believe in audible break-in effects with my DAVE. It's been improving up to a few hours ago, so 400 or 500 hours or even more may indeed be realistic. I have no idea which part(s) of the electronics are responsible for it, but I'm curious about Rob's findings. My theory is that the spectacular small-signal resolution extends break-in effects to levels that are long below the audibility threshold with less resolving electronics.


----------



## rgs9200m

So how much warmth does the DAVE generate? Is it appropriate for desktop use right near me (like I enjoy with my cool-running Hugo TT)? Thanks.


----------



## JaZZ

rgs9200m said:


> So how much warmth does the DAVE generate? Is it appropriate for desktop use right near me (like I enjoy with my cool-running Hugo TT)? Thanks.


 
  
 No problem for me. You can still touch the housing. And I haven't really noticed any additional warmth at my listening place 55 cm from it.


----------



## Articnoise

romaz said:


> Rob, could you please explain how the DAVE attenuates volume?  Does it occur in the digital or analog domain?  Is your noise shaper involved?
> 
> With my previous DAC, it had a 60+ bit digital volume control and as you attenuated the volume, you would lose bit depth and eventually you would drop below the bit-depth of your recording (16-24 bits) which would then lead to loss of dynamic resolution but until that point was reached, the full dynamics were there.  At least, that is how I understood it.


 
  

 If the pre is digital I assume the volume control will be digital too. I’m also looking forward to hear how Rob have dealt with it and how it’s made to prevent loss of bit depth and resolution on lower volume.


----------



## ecwl

About burn-in, I left DAVE on all the time the first week but was too busy to seriously listen, just watched a couple hours of TV through it nightly. Then I was away the second week with the DAVE turned off. The third week, I turned it back on and after a few days, I don't think I've heard any sonic improvements since. I have unplugged the DAVE to try it out at my dealer's place in a different system once and the rest of the time it's at home turned on (not on standby). I do use my headphones with it probably 2-3 hours a week but I don't consider myself discerning enough to notice improvements with burn-in in that section of the DAC. On average, I think I listen to 2 hours of music with it nightly through my speakers, plus 1 hour of TV.
  
 What I do notice is maybe what Rob Watts called brain break-in. So I have a few songs that I'd listen to a few times, more as test tracks. Otherwise, I just go through new music in Tidal or leaf through my own collection as the music sound so new and fresh with DAVE. With new music, I constantly feel like the DAC is improving, as I'm always hearing new things that I didn't know were in the music that I already own (and used to listen to with the QBD76HDSD). But whenever I start wondering if that's because DAVE is burning in, I would listen to those standard test tracks I use that I've listened to probably weekly since the third week I had the DAC (week of March 7) and I didn't notice any improvements compared to my recall. It would be interesting to hear from people who notice more and more burn-in with time whether they left their DAVE on standby (most did) or not and whether they mainly listen to new materials or just the same tracks over and over again.


----------



## Jawed

lovethatsound said:


> ecwl said:
> 
> 
> > I was wondering if most of the Chord DAVE owners leave their DAVE on all the time or do you put it in standby mode? I used to leave my Chord QBD76HDSD on all the time so I just left the DAVE on all the time too. I did have the Display Mode set to 4 so that the display is off most of the time. Thoughts? Opinions?
> ...



I dare say if you hadn't used standby and instead just left it on, it would have "run in" faster.


----------



## TheAttorney

> Considering the warmth produced by it (hinting to the used electrical energy) I couldn't reconcile it with my conscience to leave it on all the time. I leave it on the whole evening till the end of my listening session(s), though.


 
 The HiFi News review stated that it consumed 18w in normal mode and 1w in standby.
  
 So in normal mode, DAVE consumes about half that of my Y(rest of word censored), despite the latter being cooler to the touch, courtesy of it's much larger enclosure.
 Furthermore, DAVE's 1w standby option appeals to me wanting to save the planet - or at least pretending to.
  
 Although DAVE gets pleasantly "warm", it doesn't get anywhere near "hot"


----------



## wym2

rob watts said:


> No, the only difference is PCB track and a different relay - its going through identical circuitry.
> 
> On burn in with Dave in general - I am actually not 100% sure about this (that it has much break-in). My main unit has clocked up thousands of hours, but when I loaded the production code (which had some major sound quality improvements) I had the feeling it was sounding better and better, even 8 weeks after - and that can't be physical break-in. The difference in SQ was about a 30% improvement in depth. Part of it was that I was listening to new material, and I was hearing the better depth, part was simply enjoying the improvement (how long it takes to get used to a sound quality upgrade gives a useful clue to the magnitude or scale of the change). Maybe brain break-in, but perhaps not. When I get a brand new unit I will do a test against my old unit and get a feel for how much is physical break-in.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Just wondering after reading this post whether there is a possibility that this DAC chip can be reprogrammed with future sound /operational improvements- perhaps like firmware?


----------



## Hiyono

rgs9200m said:


> So how much warmth does the DAVE generate? Is it appropriate for desktop use right near me (like I enjoy with my cool-running Hugo TT)? Thanks.


 

 Mine feels just warm to touch.  I put one of those cooking thermometer on top of my Dave and it says 35 Degree C(room @ 24C).  It never gets hot.  That might be different when its in mid summer.  
  
 From what I noticed burn in makes a bit difference.  When I first got my Dave back in Jan.  It was a little bit harsh and had more sibilance with my AKG K812.  But now it has much less now.  To me Dave improved quite a bit since its first week.  I am past the 600hr mark.  To me Dave sounds smoother, fuller sounding, less sibilance and better depth.  It could be a factor of many things.  I got a new Furutech Power Guard-48 (http://www.furutech.com/2015/09/16/11717/) same week I got my Dave in Japan.  So cable could of been burn in also.  Also I first had my Dave sitting on top of my Cavalli liquid glass.  Now its sitting on two Ikea boards with 4 vibration feet in-between.  I would like to try the stillpoints one day.
  
 I am very much liking Dave's neutral, details and depth.  Compared to my old setup which is an Emm labs Dac2se and a Cavalli Liquid Glass.  The EMM+LG combo is more smooth and warming sounding.  The soundstage is about the same width but Dave wins in depth and transparency.  Dave 's soundstage is amazing,  It places instruments delicately in place even if they are soft sounds they aren't covered by other sounds.  I find that the K812 sounds good with the Dave.  K812 conveys Dave's soundstage, depth and transparency very well.  It does have a little bit of treble sharpness.  I tried with the hd800 and I never liked the U shape sound and hot treble.  Dave paired with the Shure KSE1500 is one of the best I heard.  When Robb Watts makes an electrostatic Amp for Dave's digital outputs,  I'll be one to pre order.
  
 Dave's headphone out is enough to power all my headphones.  My hardest to drive is my AKG k240df 600ohms.  It can get loud enough for me at about -10 db.  No problems driving my k812, lcd3, W3000anv.  I'll ask my friend if I can try his k1000 sometime next week.
  
 I took my Dave to a local store so someone can try it.  Last summer, I was debating on either the MSB analog, a totaldac, and Chord Dave since my emm labs is turning quite old.  This person brought his Hugo TT to the store so I could try.  After hearing the TT,  I pre ordered the Dave.  If the TT can already sound this good.  I was never impressed with the Hugo.  Last week,  He tried my Dave and he really liked how it sounded.  He was on the Dave for a long time and compared to his TT.  He said he should of waited for Dave instead of getting the TT.  But he also report a conflicting point.  He feels that USB cable does make a difference.  It could be his bias.  He is a hardcore entreq fan.  He has their ground box, USB cables, and other cables.  He brought his entreq usb cable and I had my LH light speed 10G.  He says he liked his entreq more.  Sorry I don't have the details.  We kept communications to basics since my Chinese isn't the best.  I don't understand some of the more difficult terms he was using.
  
 Also searching up Dave I found this other Taiwan user review and he also found that USB makes a difference.  http://www.hiendlife.com/x1/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=32457 .  
 2，USB线。农夫挑战者VS 日本AIM旗舰。农夫大气、AIM精细，各有特点。特别感受：Chord自带机线也算好听。He also states that he doesn't feel Dave was sensitive to Power cables.   I honestly haven't had the time to play around with the USB and power cables to report anything.  One thing I noticed is Dave USB with my iPad with CCK runs the battery much quicker then my old EMM labs Dac2.  I was using my iPad to burn in the Dave before.


----------



## Jawed

hiyono said:


> One thing I noticed is Dave USB with my iPad with CCK runs the battery much quicker then my old EMM labs Dac2.  I was using my iPad to burn in the Dave before.



Part of the galvanic isolation circuit on the USB input is using power from your iPad. This part of the circuit is not connected to the power supply inside DAVE. Instead it used power coming through the USB cable from your iPad. So your iPad battery will suffer.


----------



## Hiyono

jawed said:


> Part of the galvanic isolation circuit on the USB input is using power from your iPad. This part of the circuit is not connected to the power supply inside DAVE. Instead it used power coming through the USB cable from your iPad. So your iPad battery will suffer.




Ah that's how it works. Yeah I noticed my iPad dies like in about 16hrs compared to like 2d on my old system when I use it to burn in new headphones. Thanks for the info.


----------



## wdh777

Just a reminder that Apple now sells a cck which allows you to charge the iPad when using it.


----------



## STR-1

theattorney said:


> The HiFi News review stated that it consumed 18w in normal mode and 1w in standby.



I emailed Chord to ask about power consumption and I was told in reply that it consumed 30w.


----------



## JaZZ

theattorney said:


> > Considering the warmth produced by it (hinting to the used electrical energy) I couldn't reconcile it with my conscience to leave it on all the time. I leave it on the whole evening till the end of my listening session(s), though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 So it's 18 watts or 30 watts – about two or three LED lamps burning all the time without necessity. (Considering the warmth 30 watts seem more plausible to me.) Of course I want to save the planet or more precisely make the best I can (read: what's not too unconvenient) to not make the situation any worse than «necessary». I wonder how someone can display that as laughable. As a music and sound lover who moreover rides a motorcycle now and then just for pleasure (although less than I used to) I kind of feel obliged to be at least somewhat responsible for my lifestyle.
  
 Now if I were to use standby instead – who can guarantee that I get the same «sonic benefit» from the start, without a warm-up phase? It would seem plausible to me that a warm-up phase implies physical warm-up, which standby wouldn't provide. So what's actually the benefit from standby? (Question not specifically directed at The Attorney.) I don't use my remote control.
  


str-1 said:


> theattorney said:
> 
> 
> > The HiFi News review stated that it consumed 18w in normal mode and 1w in standby.
> ...


----------



## seeteeyou

wdh777 said:


> Just a reminder that Apple now sells a cck which allows you to charge the iPad when using it.


 
  
 http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0W2/lightning-to-usb-3-camera-adapter
 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1241761-REG/apple_mk0w2am_a_lightning_to_usb_3_0.html
  
 FYI
  

 http://9to5mac.com/2016/03/27/review-lightning-to-usb-3-camera-adapter-a-podcasters-best-friend/
  

 http://youtu.be/7IqKDmFoJX0


----------



## yellowblue

I never thought that I would sell my Totaldac dual with reclocker. But after reading Romaz comparison between Totaldac and Dave I changed my mind. 
 After getting the Dave yesterday and just 30 hours of burn in I already can see/hear that it was the right decision. The Dave has more detail and much more "energy" in the midths without sounding bright. It is actually much more smooth sounding than the Totaldac (without loosing some detail). I am curious to see how much the Dave will change with more burn in. Hard to believe that it will sound even smoother.
 It drives my HD800 (Anax mod) without any problems and the headphone amp is so versatile that even my Grado GH-1 and my IEMs (!) Oriolus sounds fabulous from it. Even getting the Ether C soon.


----------



## shuttlepod

DAVE appears to be racking up fans by the day. Romaz -- looks like you are stimulating the local economy in Kent, England. I suppose I might play some very small part in that as well.


----------



## paulchiu

seeteeyou said:


> http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0W2/lightning-to-usb-3-camera-adapter
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1241761-REG/apple_mk0w2am_a_lightning_to_usb_3_0.html
> 
> FYI
> ...


 
  
 This should have come out first.


----------



## esimms86

After reading Rob's post about the AQ Nighthawk in his blog I was wondering how it paired with Dave. I don't need another set of headphones but the Price differential between the Nighthawk and the HE1000 for those whose budgets fall short by a couple of thousand dollars.


----------



## paulchiu

esimms86 said:


> After reading Rob's post about the AQ Nighthawk in his blog I was wondering how it paired with Dave. I don't need another set of headphones but the Price differential between the Nighthawk and the HE1000 for those whose budgets fall short by a couple of thousand dollars.


 
 what did Rob say about the Nighthawk?  I just received mine last week and it is great but no HE1000 replacement.


----------



## rgs9200m

Thank you Hiyono for your reply to my question about the temperature of the DAVE. ( It is interesting that you mentioned EMM since I find the Hugo TT nicely warmer-sounding in the upper mids than the XDS1V2 on redbook. )


----------



## paulchiu

Who has the Dave stand and which leg did you choose?


----------



## Rob Watts

romaz said:


> Rob, could you please explain how the DAVE attenuates volume?  Does it occur in the digital or analog domain?  Is your noise shaper involved?
> 
> With my previous DAC, it had a 60+ bit digital volume control and as you attenuated the volume, you would lose bit depth and eventually you would drop below the bit-depth of your recording (16-24 bits) which would then lead to loss of dynamic resolution but until that point was reached, the full dynamics were there.  At least, that is how I understood it.


 
 Yes the volume is fully digital, as I get better transparency that way. Analogue volume controls have noise and linearity problems, and more importantly small signal resolution problems. Every metal to metal interface has oxides, and this has small signal non-linearities, and this degrades the perception of depth. I have known about this since the early 80's, but could never measure a problem, just hear it. The good thing about Dave was with the discovery that I needed noise shapers that worked at 350 dB to get the best depth, then I have been able to run simulations and measure the performance of this problem - and I confirmed that extremely small errors did have an influence on depth perception - so now I have a rule of thumb number of 350 dB performance - that's why we can't measure these tiny problems but can hear them. It was interesting that working with digital solved an understanding problem that was purely analogue.
  
 Anyway, simply doing volume controls digitally won't solve the problem, as conventional noise shapers are actually worse at resolving small signals than analogue. Not only that, how the truncation issue is dealt with is also important, as this also degrades depth performance. So now I have Dave's noise shapers running at 350 dB, I needed the WTA filter outputs and the volume OP to also work at 350 dB performance too. Today, when I design I now formally test for this by ensuring that it will perfectly reproduce a -301 dB signal which ensures its much better than 50 bits accuracy. Here is a 24 bit WTA output after noise shaping:
  

 The flat noise floor section at -385 dB is actually a simulation/FFT issue. The -301 dB signal should be -301.02999 dB - it came out at -301.030 dB, so the fundamental is perfectly preserved amplitude. Even though its a 24 bit output, it is accurate to more like 64 bits.
  
 Now I get this performance by using noise shapers (and I had to go to silly lengths to get this level of performance - before Dave I worked to 200dB or 32 bit accuracy)
  
 My next headache is with Davina and getting perfectly preserved small signals but with 44.1 and 16 bit - in this case, I can't use noise shaping like this, so its going to be an interesting challenge maintaining depth perception.
  
 Rob


----------



## romaz

rob watts said:


> Yes the volume is fully digital, as I get better transparency that way.
> 
> The flat noise floor section at -385 dB is actually a simulation/FFT issue. The -301 dB signal should be -301.02999 dB - it came out at -301.030 dB, so the fundamental is perfectly preserved amplitude. Even though its a 24 bit output, it is accurate to more like 64 bits.




Thanks for the detailed explanation, Rob. Just to make sure I understand, are you saying that with the DAVE, I can attenuate down to -385 dB (inaudible levels?) with no compromise to the waveform amplitude meaning no compromise in dynamics, even with a 24 bit file?

Based on your opening statement, I am also inferring that it is not possible to create a preamp that would go after the DAVE that could ever achieve this level of performance, is that correct?


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## Rob Watts

romaz said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation, Rob. Just to make sure I understand, are you saying that with the DAVE, I can attenuate down to -385 dB (inaudible levels?) with no compromise to the waveform amplitude meaning no compromise in dynamics, even with a 24 bit file?
> 
> Based on your opening statement, I am also inferring that it is not possible to create a preamp that would go after the DAVE that could ever achieve this level of performance, is that correct?


 
 Hmm - not quite, as it would be noisy at -385 dB! The max attenuation is -75 dB. So a 24 bit ideal signal would be -144 plus -75 so it would now be -219 dB. The truncation noise is at -350 dB (about) so its still better than this by 131 dB.
  
 The problem we have with this is that if we use a noise shaper within the truncation (and that's the best way of ensuring no extra noise), then the noise shaper degrades the amplitude of small signals - indeed, signals that are smaller than the resolution of the noise shaper (that's the noise shaper noise floor) is lost forever. So as a small signal gets closer to the noise shaper resolution, then small signals get progressively attenuated. This is the source of the small signal amplitude non-linearity, and mathematically it is identical to the non linearity that happens with metal/metal interfaces - and it sounds exactly the same, poor depth reproduction.
  
 The really interesting thing about the Dave project is that I now have a number for how well a noise shaper needs to perform - and that's 350 dB - and that's actually a reflection of how well I can do with noise shaping. Its possible the human limits on depth perception is even smaller than this. And this is the truly amazing thing about this problem - the implication is that there is no limit to how accurate small signals need to be. And frankly, I have great difficulty with this idea, that the brain can be so sensitive, that zero error is what we need. But I can only report what I can hear, and there is definitely something very weird about depth perception.
  
 Rob


----------



## romaz

rob watts said:


> Hmm - not quite, as it would be noisy at -385 dB! The max attenuation is -75 dB. So a 24 bit ideal signal would be -144 plus -75 so it would now be -219 dB. The truncation noise is at -350 dB (about) so its still better than this by 131 dB.
> 
> Rob




Understood, thanks. This is quite amazing. Even with something like a 32 bit signal, I could maximally attenuate the DAVE down to -75dB and still have zero signal degradation! I can see why it would make no sense at all to add a preamp after the DAVE.


----------



## Christer

While Dave remains the best  consumer Dac  I have heard  I must  again  confess that I am also  looking at all other cheaper options before dishing out the fortune Dave would cost me. 
 Over at Computer Audiophile there seems to be a lot of talk going on around the new german-made  T&A DAC 8 DSD.
 Which is going to be demoed at Munich Highend Show in May.
 But very little, next to nothing at all about DAVE?
 I posted my first DAVE impressions there too and got basically no response at all.
 All the rave over there seems to be about the T&A especially its DSD which seems to have a  native ie a true 1bit converter that works all the way up to DSD 512 and can also be used to upconvert pcm to DSD 512 whatever that implies for SQ?
  
 The HI FI News review says that DAVE also plays DSD natively. But does it really?
  
  One of the things that DAVE made even clearer to me via both HD800 and HE1000, than before was that Acoucense's Mahler 5 in 24/192 sounded even better than Channel Classic's DSD 64 version via DAVE than via  both my Hugo and Mojo.
  
 Is there anyone here who has already heard the T&A DAC8 DSD?
 I remember T&A mades some quite good SACD players.But I haven't heard any of their recent DACs.
 In Europe it seems to sell for around 2700€ which makes it a lot more affordable than DAVE!
  
 But is it even anywhere near Dave SQ wise?
  
 According to some at Computer Audiophile its DSD 512 is quote: " entirely in another ballpark".
 I don't pretend to understand all the technical info Rob Watts is providing regarding DAVE nor all that is provided in this pdf :
http://www.ta-hifi.de/fileadmin/pdf/...mp8_GB_web.pdf
 But for those who might understand more than me and draw more  conclusions than I am capable of here it is.
 My final verdict is always through listening how close any product gets to the real thing acoustic music as I am used to hearing it live.
 And so far DAVE is the closest digital  approach I have heard.
 But tomorrow morning I will once again  re-calibrate against the only true  reference from early morning until late night,with lunch and a few hours rest in between.
 And no romaz not to worry, it won't be AC/DC.
 According to some news they cancelled a concert  recently because a doctor, you romaz? warned that at least one member of the group risked turning completely deaf if he did one more concert!
 No such risks  with Szymanovsky's 4th  and Tchaikovsky's 5th.
 Well possibly if you stand right in front of  the brass which I did once at some sessions,luckily during some mezzoforte passages but still.
 But I am expecting plenty of real dynamic range and depth perception even from good midhall positions.


----------



## ecwl

Well, I think the T+A brochure says it all. For DAC8, PCM music is played through 4 Burr-brown DAC chips. DSD is played in a true native fashion with a selectable analog filter of 60kHz (for DSD64) or 120kHz (for DSD512). The implementation would be like Emm Labs/PS Audio Perfectstream/Playback designs IF these DACs just let the DSD64/128/256/512 signals pass through without any FPGA conversion.
  
 As to whether something truly plays DSD "natively", I like this article's definition:
 http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue78/dsd.htm
  
 So according to that artilce, T+A DAC8 would play DSD files in a a true Direct Native DSD fashion whereas Chord DAVE or ESS Sabre DAC chip-based DACs would play DSD files in a non-direct Native DSD fashion. However, there is a difference with DAVE vs Hugo/Mojo/Sabre because the DAVE with the DSD filter does not decimate, meaning the signal probably goes from 1-bit/2.822MHz to 24-bit/2.822MHz for further processing whereas Hugo/Mojo and presumably Sabre DACs decimates meaning the 1-bit/2.822MHz is converted to 24-bit/704kHz (I don't actually know the exact numbers) first before further processing.
  
 The Computer Audiophile comments are unique in that some of the people on the forum are pretty intense on using their computer to upsample files (e.g. using software like XXXHighend or HQPlayer). So essentially, what they are doing is taking their CD files or DSD64 files and then using their computer as if they are Chord DAVE's FPGA and converting the CD/DSD64 files into DSD512 with their own digital filter/noise-shaping/volume control algorithms. Since you can virtually not find any native DSD512 files available for playback, that's really what those guys are talking about. And then they're sending the DSD512 files into the T+A DAC8 for playback. So if you really want a fair comparison between their DSD512 T+A DAC8 playback with Chord DAVE's DSD playback capabilities, you need to use the same software they're running and convert whatever music into DSD256 and feed it to Chord DAVE via the DSD filter and see what happens. Personally, I think this is pretty insane. And I'm not convinced even in this kind of setup, Chord DAVE would not beat the T+A DAC8 hands down. And I also think if you just feed Chord DAVE the actual CD/DSD64 file, you'll get better sound than tweaking your own computer to upsample it to DSD256 and sending it to Chord DAVE.
  
 Obviously, actually testing the T+A DAC8 is the best way to evaluate how it sounds in your particular use case. But as Rob Watts said, every DAC technology design has its own fundamental limitations so while designers can optimize their DACs based on Burr-brown chip designs or they can optimize their DACs based on 1-bit true DSD playback at 2.822MHz up to 22.576MHz (DSD512), or based on ladder DACs, you can only optimize the designs to a point and run into the fundamental limits of that particular technology. From what I understand from what Rob Watts is saying, the main advantage of DAVE and in fact of Hugo/Mojo too is that the FPGA/WTA/noise-shaping + Pulse Array DAC designs are not as limited as multi-bit PWM DAC chips/ladder DAC chips or straight DSD/PWM in terms of fundamental performance which is why the sonic reproduction would always be more accurate and as a result, in most DAVE Head-Fi forum commenters' opinion, more sonically rewarding experience.


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## romaz

christer said:


> Over at Computer Audiophile there seems to be a lot of talk going on around the new german-made  T&A DAC 8 DSD.
> 
> All the rave over there seems to be about the T&A especially its DSD which seems to have a  native ie a true 1bit converter that works all the way up to DSD 512 and can also be used to upconvert pcm to DSD 512 whatever that implies for SQ?
> 
> ...




I heard this new DAC along with its accompanying headphone amp at the T+A room at CES in Las Vegas in January. It was connected to an HD800S. Because I had my HE1000 with me, they let me listen to my HE1000 with it also. Because this was my first time listening to the HD800S, I spent a fair amount of time there, more than I would have otherwise. They did have a good orchestral track available in addition to some standard studio vocal tracks. Prior to coming into this room, I had just spent a fair amount of time at the Chord room listening to the DAVE. I can assure you, this DAC is not in the league of the DAVE, not really even close.

Oversampling to DSD is not new. The Directstream and the Nagra HD both do it. The T+A is closer in presentation to the Directstream, which I know well because I used to own it. The Nagra is in a whole different league. It is smoother and laid back yet more resolving and just more engaging in its presentation compared with the drier presentation of the other two. Neither of these DACs have the holographic abilities of the DAVE, however.

The DAVE oversamples also but well beyond DSD512 and for different reasons than most. Unlike MQA, for example, which oversamples to address the ringing artifacts introduced by the ADC, Rob did not feel this was important. Here was his response to me:

"No I over sample to 2048 FS, or a new filtered sample every 9.6 nS.

The first WTA stage is 16FS. Then the next WTA stage is at 256 FS. Then a three stage filter then takes it to 2048 FS.

Its done for a number of reasons - to reduce the timing of transients uncertainty problem, to enable the noise shapers to work at 104 MHz so that the noise shapers can reproduce depth correctly, and finally to allow no measurable noise floor modulation.

So there are a number of reasons why I oversample to such a high rate.

ADC ringing artifacts is not one of them, as that is irrelevant."

At CanJam the other week, I asked John Franks if they spent much time listening to their competition and his response was "No." Apparently, this is not their practice at all. As ecwl stated, Rob, having been in this business a long time, is intimately familiar with all current DAC technologies (R2R, delta sigma, etc.) and he was incapable of overcoming their inherent limitations (i.e. R2R is too slow to effectively oversample) so he felt he had to design his own DACs from scratch via FPGA to create what he wanted. Now, it is up to the objective listener to decide if he has succeeded.


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## paulchiu

romaz said:


> ...............
> 
> Oversampling to DSD is not new. The Directstream and the Nagra HD both do it. The T+A is closer in presentation to the Directstream, which I know well because I used to own it. The Nagra is in a whole different league. It is smoother and laid back yet more resolving and just more engaging in its presentation compared with the drier presentation of the other two. Neither of these DACs have the holographic abilities of the DAVE, however.
> 
> .............


 
  
 Yes.  In my use of the Nagra HD DAC, the analog sound from its headamp is what I like most.  It is pretty much sticking a headphone straight into a top quality record player.  These days, such a phone setup runs into the 50-100K.
 Now, this year, I am looking for more of that soundstage the Dave promises.


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## Sunya

rob watts said:


> Hmm - not quite, as it would be noisy at -385 dB! The max attenuation is -75 dB. So a 24 bit ideal signal would be -144 plus -75 so it would now be -219 dB. The truncation noise is at -350 dB (about) so its still better than this by 131 dB.


 
  
 With digital VCs isn't also the *analog* noise floor of the DAC important even if the digital noise floor is at -385dB? I mean, as you attenuate digitally the signal gets closer to the analog noise floor of the DAC which remains constant, meaning reduced SNR. The quoted 127dB dynamic range translates to a little over 21 bit analog performance which would give you 5 bits of attenuation or 30dB before starting to lose resolution for 16 bit signals. But what happens with a 24 bit signal? Just those 3 extra bits over the analog resolution of the DAC to throw away for VC before starting to affect the sound quality?


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## TheAttorney

ecwl said:


> The Computer Audiophile comments are unique in that some of the people on the forum are pretty intense on using their computer to upsample files (e.g. using software like XXXHighend or HQPlayer). So essentially, what they are doing is taking their CD files or DSD64 files and then using their computer as if they are Chord DAVE's FPGA and converting the CD/DSD64 files into DSD512 with their own digital filter/noise-shaping/volume control algorithms. Since you can virtually not find any native DSD512 files available for playback, that's really what those guys are talking about. And then they're sending the DSD512 files into the T+A DAC8 for playback. S


 
 I've dabbled with HQPlayer converting redbook FLAC files into DSD into my iFi iDSD. Even with that low cost portable player driving my trusty old HD600's, the superiority of HQPlayer over JRiver was very obvious at any upsampling/filter option, but converting to 256DSD and upwards really made this combination sing for me, although some on the iFi thread preferred highly upsampled PCM to any DSD. For me though, DSD just sounded more natural and lifelike.
  
 The trouble was, some of those HQPlayer options put a real load onto my laptop's processor causing the fan to kick in horribly. And the higher rate DSD conversions were by far the worst for loading the processor. Also, the HQPlayer's user interface is an acquired taste, so it can all be hard work to get the best, but what it did prove to me was that manipulating the original redbook file can work wonders.
  
 The more adventurous that liked HQPlayer thought that the exotic and obscure BugHeadEmperor was even better. I never tried this one because just reading the summary of the user instructions gave me a headache. Apparently BHE fundamentally reconstructs the original file, rather that merely upsampling and filtering, but I didn't delve deeply enough to really understand what it was all about. It's a strange world out there.


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## esimms86

paulchiu said:


> what did Rob say about the Nighthawk?  I just received mine last week and it is great but no HE1000 replacement.


 

 See post#21:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/800264/watts-up/15


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## paulchiu

esimms86 said:


> See post#21:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/800264/watts-up/15


 
  
 Agreed with the bass and comfort points.


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## Christer

romaz said:


> I heard this new DAC along with its accompanying headphone amp at the T+A room at CES in Las Vegas in January. It was connected to an HD800S. Because I had my HE1000 with me, they let me listen to my HE1000 with it also. Because this was my first time listening to the HD800S, I spent a fair amount of time there, more than I would have otherwise. They did have a good orchestral track available in addition to some standard studio vocal tracks. Prior to coming into this room, I had just spent a fair amount of time at the Chord room listening to the DAVE. I can assure you, this DAC is not in the league of the DAVE, not really even close.
> 
> Oversampling to DSD is not new. The Directstream and the Nagra HD both do it. The T+A is closer in presentation to the Directstream, which I know well because I used to own it. The Nagra is in a whole different league. It is smoother and laid back yet more resolving and just more engaging in its presentation compared with the drier presentation of the other two. Neither of these DACs have the holographic abilities of the DAVE, however.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for your input again romaz.
 I did not really expect T+A to beat or even be as good as DAVE. And having read your posts and credentials here I trust your opinions almost as my own. Just my  wishful thinking and at least hoping I could save some money and still be in DAVE territory.
 I guess I will just have to dig very deep into my sparse resources and bite the  sweet&sour DAVE apple in the end too.
 Regarding the technical bits you quote from Rob "every 9,6 nS"  should it be read as nanoseconds?
 Regarding your question whether Chord listen to the competition, I would say I wish more  DAC designers than Chord, listened to real live acoustic music instead  of tuning and trying to  cover up faults in  their gear according to expected subjective preferences among their customers.
 Oh, they should have heard this morning's Tchaikovsky 5 rehearsal . Now that was truly in a league well beyond any HIFI experience.
 That'd give them something real  to strive for.


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## rkt31

digital volume control is there in mojo and Hugo too. mojo even at very low volumes does not lose resolution as it is being enjoyed by very sensitive iem users too. so Dave with so much more processing power should have no problem


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## Christer

Thanks for your clarifications too ecwl.
  
 Just  another case of wishful thinking and false hope  from me then, I suppose.
 There as here, there are few posters with any real reliable references imho.But what got me interested apart from the price issue.Who wouldn't want DAVE performance for 2700€?, was that some of those who have both real references and access to live and masterfiles of acoustic music seem to be a bit  interested in the T+A DAC8DSD.
 At Computer Audiophile there are some hardcore DSD believers possibly sticking to the last chance? for DSD to prove itself superior to HD PCM. which seems to be with  DSD 512. Although DSD 1024 is already talked about in some quarters.But as you say there is little or no available natively recorded source material even  at DSD 512.
 I am not really interested  in upsampling low res material in my computer. All else equal as I have said and Rob confirmed recently, native HD is the way to imo. But there seem to be quite a number of both DSD 128 and 256 releases of acoustic music available from several download sites. Most notably for me on classical sites like native DSD.com and the new site Spirit of Turtle which sells both some native DSD recordings , where many recordings from Challenge Classics can be downloaded  at all resolutions from DXD native to 16/44.1 and  DSD 64,128 and 256.
 I am  certainly no "hardcore DSD believer" any longer. But I used to be, until I heard DXD raw at sessions.I had already heard DSD64 raw. But I have to say that both DSD 64 and DSD 128 which is what I can play now and have heard via Dave, can  also sound very musical  and sweet.
 And yes I would still like to know if Rob Watts when he says DSD is fundamentally flawed,means  at all present and future DSD rates, not only DSD64 and 128 which if I remember correctly, he still finds too noisy?
 Cheers Chris


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## ecwl

I think Rob Watts has answered this question a few times in a few different ways in this forum and in the Chord Hugo forum. But I have to admit I have read his answers multiple times and I'm not 100% sure if I fully understand it. But maybe me trying to explain it in the simple way that I understand the DSD data format issues may help clarify things for Christer.
  
 As a file format, 1-bit/2.822MHz DSD has two fundamental problems that in Rob Watts's mind is inferior to PCM, even possibly 16/44 PCM. One issue is that if there is a very low level signal, in PCM, even though people say it is a 16-bit file format and theoretically should have 96dB dynamic range, in reality, you can dither to a much lower signal level and we know that Rob Watts, and most DAVE "believers/lovers/admirers" believe that these theoretically inaudible low-level signals are what actually creates additional depth and musicality and accuracy to the music. When you record music in DSD, because you only have 1-bit to work with, you have already dithered the music in 1-bit. which is what he meant that DSD is already noise-shaped. So people calculate that DSD is the equivalent of 20-bit 44kHz PCM except even with the best noise-shaping, you will never get beyond the 20 bits because the noise shaping is baked into the DSD file. You cannot recover what you've lost in the recording. Whereas it's possible that some 24-bit dithered low-level signals are preserved in the 16-bit/44kHz files. Since these are ultra-low-level signal levels, they are not going to manifest as noise, they should according to Rob appear in an accurate DAC as better soundstage depth and better timbral accuracy of voices and instruments.
  
 The second fundamental problem that I think Rob Watts has with DSD is that if you have a dynamic transient, you can have the 16-bit dynamic range at 44kHz in PCM. Meaning that you can jump from no signal to full signal (65535 = 96dB) in 22.7ns. With DSD, you simply cannot record this jump because you're fluctuating 1-bit at a time so even if you record an increment at 0.3ns intervals, after 22.7ns, you're only going to get to 64 (= 36dB), which is much less than 65535. So you can imagine then DSD would sound soft and the timing and transients would sound poor as a result.
  
 With the DAVE, I do find that really good 16/44 recordings sound better than really good DSD recordings with respect to soundstage depth, timbral accuracy and particularly timing and transients. Is it because I'm imagining all of this because of what Rob Watts said and I was already biased? Not sure. However, there are just a lot more bad 16/44 recordings than bad DSD recordings so on average, it feels like DSD sounds better when in fact it probably does not as a file format.
  
 That said, I may be completely misunderstanding what Rob Watts is saying. But this is my layman's understanding and explanation of it. I have been known to be corrected about a lot of these technical aspects. I think sometimes, I truly misunderstood the concepts but other times, my simplification of the concepts becomes too simple that more technical people are a little offended by the inaccurate (or slightly-off) representation of reality. Please feel free to correct me if something I said is incorrect.


----------



## rgs9200m

Is there any technical reason why physical SACD discs sound (at least to me) magnificent, but high res or DSD files don't make it to this level to my ears?
 SACD combines extreme detail and speed and tight bass but avoids any dreaded over-the-top ringing or glare in the upper mids and vocals that annoys me in digital.
 (I know this the Dave thread and I don't have one, just a Hugo TT, but there seems to be a major DSD tangent here, so I wanted to ask since I've been an SACD junkie and believer since it started in 1999.)
  
 One more thing is that, with an SACD player, generally there is no EQ possible, and I find that none is needed.


----------



## ecwl

I think the short answer to your question is probably yes. Because most DACs you've listened to for high-res or DSD files actually convert DSD files into PCM first whereas your SACD player is probably playing the DSD stream as the original DSD stream using pulse-width modulation (PWM). There are still DACs that play DSD files like your old SACD players, e.g. T+A DAC8, Teac UD-503, etc but they would play PCM as PCM. Moreover, there are DACs that convert PCM to 2xDSD and convert DSD to 2xDSD (so not the original waveform), e.g. Emm Labs/Meitner DACs, PS Audio Directstream, Playback Design DACs.
  
 One of the discussions in this forum in the past was that even though most admirers/users of DAVE believe DAVE (or even Hugo TT) would reproduce the most accurate analog waveform from PCM or DSD files, we have noticed some people prefer DACs of other designs. DAVE's final output uses the Pulse Array DAC which can be more accurate with less analog distortions. But it's possible that your ears and your gears just prefer music played back using pure DSD/PWM method. And ultimately, if you like one of those DACs over Hugo TT/DAVE, it's your money.


----------



## GreenLeo

theattorney said:


> I've dabbled with HQPlayer converting redbook FLAC files into DSD into my iFi iDSD. Even with that low cost portable player driving my trusty old HD600's, the superiority of HQPlayer over JRiver was very obvious at any upsampling/filter option, but converting to 256DSD and upwards really made this combination sing for me, although some on the iFi thread preferred highly upsampled PCM to any DSD. For me though, DSD just sounded more natural and lifelike.
> 
> The trouble was, some of those HQPlayer options put a real load onto my laptop's processor causing the fan to kick in horribly. And the higher rate DSD conversions were by far the worst for loading the processor. Also, the HQPlayer's user interface is an acquired taste, so it can all be hard work to get the best, but what it did prove to me was that manipulating the original redbook file can work wonders.
> 
> The more adventurous that liked HQPlayer thought that the exotic and obscure BugHeadEmperor was even better. I never tried this one because just reading the summary of the user instructions gave me a headache. Apparently BHE fundamentally reconstructs the original file, rather that merely upsampling and filtering, but I didn't delve deeply enough to really understand what it was all about. It's a strange world out there.


 
 BHE does sounds better than the HQPlayer according to the forum in JPLay (JPLAY - hi-end audio player for Windows→ Forum→ Computer Audio).  There were lots of posts and many mentioned that they changed from HQPlayer to BHE.  BHE is not that user friendly but not difficult to use.  It is relative Buggy and has OS and relative strong H/W requirements.  In terms of SQ, its better than Foobar and JPlaymini (I've never tried HQPlayer).  It's a player that requires patience to use because it crashes relatively easily and to learn how to use it because lots of tweaks may be done for all its worth.


----------



## Christer

rgs9200m said:


> Is there any technical reason why physical SACD discs sound (at least to me) magnificent, but high res or DSD files don't make it to this level to my ears?
> SACD combines extreme detail and speed and tight bass but avoids any dreaded over-the-top ringing or glare in the upper mids and vocals that annoys me in digital.
> (I know this the Dave thread and I don't have one, just a Hugo TT, but there seems to be a major DSD tangent here, so I wanted to ask since I've been an SACD junkie and believer since it started in 1999.)
> 
> One more thing is that, with an SACD player, generally there is no EQ possible, and I find that none is needed.


 

 I partly agree with you.Especially when  comparing the rbcd layer and SACD layer,there was a wonderful relief to get away from "any dreaded over-the-top ringing or glare in the upper mids and vocals that annoys me in digital." as you say and which has always annoyed me a lot too.
 SACD was a blessing for quite a few years to me too.
 None of that  horribly annoying top ringing or that  pcm glare was present even from  well pressed good old LPs.
 They were problems introduced with digital and pcm.
 Unfortunately  those ugly not natural abberrations and  aspects of PCM rear their ugly head more often even with hi res pcm than with DSD to my ears.
 But nice and sweet and beautiful as natively DSD recorded SACDs can sound via an SACD player that plays DSD natively,SACDs are still  limited to DSD 64 and judging from what I have heard so far from DSD 128 at least, DSD 256 or in the future DSD 512 or even higher  could well be what DSD needs to become a real contender again.Or maybe not?
 DAVE seems to rule as far as HD  PCM is concerned but does it really squeeze all that is possible out of higher sampling rate DSD?
 Maybe there isn't any more to be squeezed out?
 I know some people in the recording business,who are against the   "truncation and decimation" approach with DSD and prefer DSD natively over any PCM processing approach.
 People who can  regularly compare live to recorded sound.
 Although they often sound a bit  less resolved to me personally, I can listen for longer hours and sometimes with more joy to DSD recordings than many  PCM ones which tend to induce listener fatigue more often and quicker than DSD even in hi res form.
 But if I buy DAVE  I may find my priorities changing more than they have via my Hugo.
  
 Both 24/96 , 24/176.4 and 24/192 and DXD sounded sublimely realistic via DAVE to me with good recordings.
 And very revealing of the faults with badly multi mic'd ones.
 I suppose in the end it is one's musical enjoyment  that counts most.
 Surprisingly,Rob Watts  himself seems to prefer a "less resolved", "softer", "slower, "papercone" dynamic headphone over planars, for much the same reasons some of us  here obviously ,still like listening to SACDs and DSD files in spite of their theoretically lower resolution and limitations.
 DSD at its best sounds quite close to what I normally hear from a midhall seat with the warmth and bloom and harmonics from acoustic instruments playing live.
 And DXD   tends to present more of a "warts and all" on stage  sound .
 My dream is of course of  a digital recording and reproduction chain that would bring me back to the real thing when my limited memory after a while, fails to bring me the  live concert fresh again in all its glory.
 Cheers Chris and  keep enjoying both  your SACDs and Hugo TT.


----------



## Rob Watts

sunya said:


> With digital VCs isn't also the *analog* noise floor of the DAC important even if the digital noise floor is at -385dB? I mean, as you attenuate digitally the signal gets closer to the analog noise floor of the DAC which remains constant, meaning reduced SNR. The quoted 127dB dynamic range translates to a little over 21 bit analog performance which would give you 5 bits of attenuation or 30dB before starting to lose resolution for 16 bit signals. But what happens with a 24 bit signal? Just those 3 extra bits over the analog resolution of the DAC to throw away for VC before starting to affect the sound quality?


 
 Absolutely - but we have two problems to worry about. One is fixed (unvarying) analogue noise. The second is distortion and noise that is signal dependent and applies to small signals and conventional DAC's (particulalrly R2R or ladder DAC's) have big problems handling small signals - they add distortion and noise, so that as the digital volume control is applied, more small signals get distorted and resolution is lost.
  
 In the case of ladder DAC's, the resistors can never be matched well enough, so there is always very substantial distortion with small signals.
  
 In the case of conventional multi bit noise shapers (DSM) they can have better small signal non-linearity (it depends upon the DAC architecture) but have amplitude errors for small signals - as the signal gets closer to the noise shaper's noise floor, the wanted signal gets attenuated.
  
 In the case of DSD, we have even bigger problems with noise shaper resolution, plus RF noise, plus jitter sensitivity, plus idle pattern noise....
  
 Now because DAC's have severe small signal distortion and resolution issues, people naturally assume that dynamic range is an indicator of how well the DAC handles small signals in terms of resolution and distortion and noise, and forget about the fixed noise aspect, as this is seen as being small.
  
 But with Dave we have something very unusual - the dynamic range is totally dominated by the small signal fixed analogue noise. There is no DAC noise, nor is there any distortion of small signals. And I talk about the digital domain performance not because you will measure it on the analogue side - but because it was important subjectively, and it was interesting that the brain could detect such minute errors. So small is the distortion, that when I increase the signal level from -60dB (the usual setting for dynamic range), I get exactly the same -127 dB at 2.5v output - so measurement wise, the fixed noise (hiss) dominates everything. And from a SQ point of view, if you can't hear the hiss, then it has no bearing whatsoever.
  
 Rob


----------



## romaz

christer said:


> Regarding your question whether Chord listen to the competition, I would say I wish more  DAC designers than Chord, listened to real live acoustic music instead  of tuning and trying to  cover up faults in  their gear according to expected subjective preferences among their customers.


 
 I agree with you on this.  When I listen to a demo setup up by a DAC manufacturer, the first thing I pay attention to is what music they demo and very often, they are using a studio recording that potentially sounds the same on all DACs either because it has no real depth in the recording or has so much reverb mixed in that it sounds holographic on _all_ DACs, whether it is on a $100 DAC or on a $10,000 DAC.  A good example of this is Rebecca Pidgeon's performance of Spanish Harlem for Chesky Records. 
  
 With many DAC presentations, the manufacturers frequently talk about things like accuracy of timbre and detail and dynamic range and PRAT but it's much less commonly they talk about the DAC's spatial abilities, especially depth.  Even with DAC reviews that I read, the reviewers don't seem honed in on this quality.  Well, here's what Rob had to say recently:
  
"Generally I have two primary motivations - getting closer to the un-amplified sound I hear in concert halls..."
  
"Will we get lifelike depth reproduction? I want to hear an organ at 100m away sounding like its 100m away in your living room."
  
"Yes, the sound of real acoustic instruments playing in real space is the only absolute reference."


----------



## yellowblue

Tyll finds the Ether C "overwhelmingly musical". And I just can conclude - overwhelmingly musical epescially with the Dave!
  
Romaz, how about your HD800S after some more days of burn in?


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> I've dabbled with HQPlayer converting redbook FLAC files into DSD into my iFi iDSD. Even with that low cost portable player driving my trusty old HD600's, the superiority of HQPlayer over JRiver was very obvious at any upsampling/filter option, but converting to 256DSD and upwards really made this combination sing for me, although some on the iFi thread preferred highly upsampled PCM to any DSD. For me though, DSD just sounded more natural and lifelike.
> 
> The trouble was, some of those HQPlayer options put a real load onto my laptop's processor causing the fan to kick in horribly. And the higher rate DSD conversions were by far the worst for loading the processor. Also, the HQPlayer's user interface is an acquired taste, so it can all be hard work to get the best, but what it did prove to me was that manipulating the original redbook file can work wonders.
> 
> The more adventurous that liked HQPlayer thought that the exotic and obscure BugHeadEmperor was even better. I never tried this one because just reading the summary of the user instructions gave me a headache. Apparently BHE fundamentally reconstructs the original file, rather that merely upsampling and filtering, but I didn't delve deeply enough to really understand what it was all about. It's a strange world out there.


 

 I think it's always a good rule to do what you ears tell you is best but here is what Rob had to say about this matter.  It was made in reference to the Mojo but I believe this should be equally applicable to the DAVE (probably even more so):
  
"Converting the original file into DSD or up-sampling is a very bad idea. The rule of thumb is to always maintain the original data as Mojo's processing power is way more complex and capable than any PC or mobile device.
   
DSD as a format has major problems with it; in particular it has two major and serious flaws:
  
1. Timing. The noise shapers used with DSD have severe timing errors. You can see this easily using Verilog simulations. If you use a step change transient (op is zero, then goes high) with a large signal, then do the same with a small signal, then you get major differences in the analogue output - the large signal has no delay, the small signal has a much larger delay. This is simply due to the noise shaper requiring time for the internal integrators to respond to the error. This amplitude related timing error is of the order of micro seconds and is very audible. Whenever there is a timing inaccuracy, the brain has problems making sense of the sound, and perceives the timing error has a softness to the transient; in short timing errors screw up the ability to hear the starting and stopping of notes.
  
2. Small signal accuracy. Noise shapers have problems with very small signals in that the 64 times 1 bit output (DSD 64) does not have enough innate resolution to accurately resolve small signals. What happens when small signals are not properly reproduced? You get a big degradation in the ability to perceive depth information, and this makes the sound flat with no layering of instruments in space. Now there is no limit to how accurate the noise shaper needs to be; with the noise shaper that is with Mojo I have 1000 times more small signal resolution than conventional DAC's - and against DSD 64 its 10,000 times more resolving power. This is why some many users have reported that Mojo has so much better space and sounds more 3D with better layering - and its mostly down to the resolving power of the pulse array noise shaper. This problem of depth perception is unlimited in the sense that to perfectly reproduce depth you need no limit to the resolving power of the noise shaper. 
  
So if you take a PCM signal and convert it to DSD you hear two problems - a softness to the sound, as you can no longer perceive the starting and stopping of notes; and a very flat sound-stage with no layering as the small signals are not reproduced accurately enough, so the brain can't use the very small signals that are used to give depth perception.
  
The second issue in using the transport to up-sample (44.1 to 176.4 say) is that the up-samplers in a PC or mobile device are very crude, with very limited processing power and poor algorithms. This results in timing problems, and like with DSD you can't hear the starting and stopping of notes correctly. These timing problems also screw up the perception of timbre (how bright or dark instruments sound), the pitch reproduction of bass (starting transients of bass lets you follow the bass tune), and of course stereo imagery (left right placement is handled by the brain using timing differences from the ears). Now Mojo has a very advanced algorithm (WTA) that is designed to maximise timing reconstruction (the missing timing information from one sample to the next) and huge processing power to more accurately calculate what the original analogue values are from one sample to the next. Its got 500 times more processing power than normal, and this allows much more accurate reconstruction of the original analogue signal.
  
So the long and the short is don't let the source mess with the signal (except perhaps with a good EQ program) and let Mojo deal with the original data, as Mojo is way more capable.
  
Rob"

  
 Here is another post by Rob relating _specifically_ to the DAVE:
  
"Oh dear. Do NOT use your computer to up-sample or change the data when you use one of my DAC's.
  
All competent DAC's up-sample and filter internally; the issue is how well that filtering is done, in terms of how well the timing of transients is reconstructed from the original analogue. Computers are poor devices to use for manipulating data in real time as they are concurrent serial devices  - everything has to go through one to 8 processors in sequence. With hardware and FPGA's you do not need to do that, you can do thousands of operations in parallel. Dave has 166 DSP cores with each core being able to do one FIR tap in one clock cycle. That is incredibly powerful processing power way more powerful than a PC.
  
But its not just about raw processing power but the algorithm for the filter. The WTA filter is the only algorithm that has been designed to reduce timing of transients errors, and the only one that has been optimised by thousands of listening tests.
  
Rob"
  
 Lastly, much has been made about Rob not liking DSD.  He has said it is a flawed format and gave his reasons above but he has also said that if something is recorded in DSD, it should be kept in DSD and not converted to PCM and vice versa.  Here is his response in blue after he was asked the following question:
  
*Rob... should I take it that your better off sticking with the format it was originally released in... if it was recorded in Red-Book stick to Red-Book & vice-versa DSD?*
  
"Yes of course, best to stick to the format the master tape was on. But Floyd would be on analogue tapes, so we have a legitimate choice, assuming the DSD and the CD comes directly from the analogue master tape. I have heard Norah Jones on DSD and it sounded dreadful - I think they just converted CD to DSD, which is just plain dumb. This is always the problem with recordings, you do not know what you are getting!" 
  
Rob"


----------



## romaz

yellowblue said:


> Tyll finds the Ether C "overwhelmingly musical". And I just can conclude - overwhelmingly musical epescially with the Dave!
> 
> Romaz, how about your HD800S after some more days of burn in?


 

 The HD800S continues to improve.  The HE-1000 is still dimensionally fuller, especially with respect to air around the instruments and with depth and for my tastes, it is still the more musical (more evocative) headphone and easier to listen to for long stretches of time but the HD800S definitely does certain things better than the HE-1000 and for certain tracks, it is preferable to the HE-1000.  I am finding they have complementary strengths although I am waiting to re-evaluate an Abyss to see which one I like better because I likely will keep only one of these two.


----------



## romaz

As a follow up to my post #2363 above, I own several *native* DSD256 acoustical recordings that are truly spectacular and demonstrate wonderful and realistic depth on the DAVE in DSD+ mode and so I don't believe that DSD always has to sound flat but Rob did also mention that the quality of the recording is much more important than the format and that is probably the case with these recordings meaning it's the quality of the recording that makes them sound so great and it's possible they could sound just as good (maybe better) had they been recorded in DXD or even 24/192 PCM.


----------



## Christer

romaz said:


> I agree with you on this.  When I listen to a demo setup up by a DAC manufacturer, the first thing I pay attention to is what music they demo and very often, they are using a studio recording that potentially sounds the same on all DACs either because it has no real depth in the recording or has so much reverb mixed in that it sounds holographic on _all_ DACs, whether it is on a $100 DAC or on a $10,000 DAC.  A good example of this is Rebecca Pidgeon's performance of Spanish Harlem for Chesky Records.
> 
> With many DAC presentations, the manufacturers frequently talk about things like accuracy of timbre and detail and dynamic range and PRAT but it's much less commonly they talk about the DAC's spatial abilities, especially depth.  Even with DAC reviews that I read, the reviewers don't seem honed in on this quality.  Well, here's what Rob had to say recently:
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for your response romaz,
 Yes before my posts annoyed him  Rob  told me those same things  too.I found them very  laudable indeed, and they  are  generally what I hear  more of from his DACs compared to several others.
 Regarding music choice,I personally ALWAYS bring my own  reference files of acoustic music and my MPO ,not the Malaysian Philharmonic Orchestra,but  my laptop, to any audio audition,where I also know how things sounded live in the hall at sessions and  unedited raw  playback in the studio plus  lots of other well recorded symphonic and operatic material solo voice and piano and politely refuse the standard  electronica demo stuff used to impress with  certain products but often of very  limited musical value to me anyway because I don't listen to the popular genres.
 I remember  when Esa Pekka Salonen was  asked what he thought of modern  pop music in general and he answered "it tells me nothing!"
 Me neither.
 But he told me he was quite a fan of SACDs compared to rbcds with the big company he was recording for in those days, DGG.
  
 Currently I am most  tempted to get  the HE1000 to go with my Hugo for the time being.
 It sounded pretty good even via little Hugo.I was supposed to audition it again today, but a more pressing need to go to the dentist plus the fact that there are no real HI FI shops at all in central KL stopped me from doing so today.
 It would have taken me up to an hour and a half even to get to a dealer who stocks them here way out in the suburbs of huge  KL.
 And in a few hours there is a live  concert to attend again.
 Regarding depth perception organs are rarely listened to from as far as 100m away in a  real situation.
 The distance from front to back in an orchestra on stage is rarely more than 20-30 metres.
 And basically ALL recordings of classical music are made with the main stereo pair of  mics hanging slightly in front of and above the orchestra.
 There are no modern  commercial recordings I am aware of made from a mid hall perspective as far as miking is concerned.
 The only mics mounted mid hall you would see at sessions are those used for picking up ambience at mch ie surround recordings.
 In fact in most cases the mics are among the musicians in the orchestra for most multitrack/multimic'd productions and they are almost always far too many and far too close imho.
 But time is money and they all want to be on the safe side.
 The width with a large orchestra far exceeds depth. But  my old Linn Sondek  LP12/Supex mc  and my electrostatic speakers  are  fully capable of setting the part of the orchestra that doesn't fit inside my living room well into my back garden and well outside on the sides.
 Good old LP is very capable of portraying realistic  depth and width from simply mic'd  well recorded albums. Often more so than most modern digital which generally  tends to sound  flatter the lower the resolution is to me.
 I  hear clearly more "air" around instruments from DSD64  than from  rbcd for example.
 Loosing depth perception was one more of the real drawbacks like ringing and hardness, of early digital. Rob Watts seems to be  busy bringing us those things back even with pcm luckily.
 But I think he needs a bit more assistance from those actually doing the recordings to get it completely right in the end.
 To me it seems as a lot of what we are striving for here could be relativley easily achieved with a  simple  Blumlein two mics approach and a good orchestra playing in a good hall already in the late 50s.
 Listen to some Karajan Philharmonia late 50s early 60s EMI recordings on LPs and voila!
 Limited dynamic range yes , surface noise yes, a bit thin string sound yes,but inspite of all limitations there is both depth and space rarely achieved in such clarity today with many mics and pcm.
 For good realistic  stereo you need no more than two mics, and for mch up to five no more is really necessary imo.


----------



## lovethatsound

yellowblue said:


> Tyll finds the Ether C "[COLOR=333333]overwhelmingly musical". And I just can conclude - overwhelmingly musical epescially with the Dave![/COLOR]
> 
> [COLOR=333333]Romaz, how about your HD800S after some more days of burn in?[/COLOR]


Hi yellowblue
Like you i have the hd800, not modify and i love them with the Dave,but I've add my eye on the Ether C for a while now,could you do a bit of a review with the Ether C used with the Dave.


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## yellowblue

Not easy for me to answer because the Dave has 100 hours on it and the Ether C has just 30 hours and I am sure that it is not fully burned in yet. 
  
 The HD800 sounds really smooth without loosing any detail. Fantastic soundstage and air. Never heart the HD800 with so silky treble. Could even to some extend depend on my cable (Effect Audio Eros). I don´t miss the HD800S (which I never heart) at all because I think that the Dave makes the HD800 sounding at their best. Never had a headphone which was so depending on source, amping and cable. 
  
 The Ether C yet sounds a bit bright (I have to experiment with the pads when it is fully burnt in). Piano for example is not as clean sounding as on HD800, and a little fatiguing. But it should change when the Ether C is fully burned in. The Ether C hits a bit harder than the HD800 (awaiting the bass to improve furthermore and be clearly better than the HD800s bass). It´s more "you-are-there-feeling" over the Ether C. Voices are more present and where a choir sounds airy and refined with the HD800, but more distant you get a feeling that the microphone is stuck in the middle of the singers with the Ether C. 
  
 The Ether C for me is more involving but not as refined as the HD800. The treble with the Ether has more sparkle but is not as airy and silky. Soundstage is not as wide but you have a feeling that you are getting nearer to the music. 
  
 Maybe I wrote more than I should at this time and my Ether C will transform to something that will better my HD800. But I myself expect that the HD800 will stay more refined with the Dave as source whereas the Ether C will sound more musical and involving. I am sure that they will complete each other. Not selling one of the two.


----------



## Priaptor

Rob

Unfortunately I can't get a unit to try but am getting ready to "pull the trigger" on the DAVE. My plan is to use it as my go to for my headphones based on what I currently get from HUGO + Cavalli Carbon. I will obviously give it a comparison to my main systems MSB Diamond DAC and let the chips fall wherever they fall. 

My question which is more bland than all the technical stuff is what your perspective is for the (very expensive) matching stand? 

Thanks


----------



## shuttlepod

Priaptor:  Unless money is no object and you think the matching stand is just the sexiest thing ever, I would save the considerable money and spend under $500 for good isolation. That might be Stillpoints or Nordost isolation footers or the Acoustic Revive stand or a lot of other isolation tweaks that have gotten decent reviews. I like Stillpoints myself.


----------



## Priaptor

shuttlepod said:


> Priaptor:  Unless money is no object and you think the matching stand is just the sexiest thing ever, I would save the considerable money and spend under $500 for good isolation. That might be Stillpoints or Nordost isolation footers or the Acoustic Revive stand or a lot of other isolation tweaks that have gotten decent reviews. I like Stillpoints myself.




Thanks. I much rather save the bucks. I just wasn't sure if there was some amazing "coupling" or "decoupling" thing the stand had in conjunction with DAVE. I happen to have a Townshend isolation stand sitting around doing nothing which I am sure would work great. 

Have people purchased these via bricks and mortar stores or are any NET resellers selling them. I have no dealer in my area. 

Thanks again.


----------



## shuttlepod

Priaptor:  If there is no dealer in your area, I would think that Bluebird Music, the US/Canadian importer for Chord in Toronto, might be willing to deal with you directly (even if their website states that they do not sell directly to consumers). At the very least, they may have some suggestions as it is in their interest to make sure potential customers like you get served.


----------



## Priaptor

shuttlepod said:


> Priaptor:  If there is no dealer in your area, I would think that Bluebird Music, the US/Canadian importer for Chord in Toronto, might be willing to deal with you directly (even if their website states that they do not sell directly to consumers). At the very least, they may have some suggestions as it is in their interest to make sure potential customers like you get served.




Will give them a call on Monday. I have had my eye on DAVE since it was announced. I love my HUGO.


----------



## esimms86

priaptor said:


> Will give them a call on Monday. I have had my eye on DAVE since it was announced. I love my HUGO.




Priaptor, if you're looking for a dedicated amp/DAC setup for headphones then I can't recommend DAVE highly enough. I haven't heard Hugo but I have a Chord Mojo(which I love for music on the go) and DAVE is 2 quantum leaps better than the Mojo. 

BTW, I contacted Bluebird Music and they put me in touch with Sound By Singer(one of the best known audiophile brick and mortar salons in NY City) where Andrew Singer took great care of me. If you end up doing business with him tell him I sent you.

Esau

P.S.
 - DAVE was shipped to me directly from Bluebird Music so, if you're going to end up buying one without ever having laid eyes on one, then it doesn't really matter where your dealer is located.


----------



## rgs9200m

Thanks Christer for all that. I have to admit I feel the Chord sound (from my Hugo and Hugo TT) is a breakthrough with redbook CD and I can use just about any headphone without the fear of wincing.
  
 With even high end CD players, I like to use my HE1000 and, surprisingly better yet, a Senn HD650 (a real gem I have found, especially with a good tube amp like an Apex Pinnacle).
 I do recommend that those who would normally overlook the HD650 in the world of very high end headphones give it a try with an open mind, as I find it has a uniquely sweet and profound voice and scales up nicely. 
 I wonder how it would sound with the Dave. (I don't think it has been mentioned in this thread.)
  
 So thanks to Rob for working some sort of miracle in the redbook world.
 But as I said, pure SACD is a whole different sound, with a special sense of unforced ease.
 (But again, full disclosure, I have not heard a Dave.)


----------



## Priaptor

esimms86 said:


> Priaptor, if you're looking for a dedicated amp/DAC setup for headphones then I can't recommend DAVE highly enough. I haven't heard Hugo but I have a Chord Mojo(which I love for music on the go) and DAVE is 2 quantum leaps better than the Mojo.
> 
> BTW, I contacted Bluebird Music and they put me in touch with Sound By Singer(one of the best known audiophile brick and mortar salons in NY City) where Andrew Singer took great care of me. If you end up doing business with him tell him I sent you.
> 
> ...


 

 Esau,
  
 Thanks.  I know Andy very well from my early days in this hobby.  I am going to be in The City last week of April so I will stop by..
  
 Thanks
 Howie


----------



## ecwl

I'm listening to Pollini play Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 2 through DAVE and my HD650. Sounds great. I already get a lot more (1 quantum leap?) off the Mojo over an optimized Benchmark DAC1 (Nordost Heimdall 2 power cord/Peachtree X1 USB-S/PDIF adaptor to lower jitter on the input side). DAVE is as Esau says 2 quantum leaps over Mojo. Reading this column made me order some replacement ear pads for the HD650 last week from Japan (cheapest source on Amazon Canada because my local Sennheiser dealers are nuts and wouldn't sell or replace the pads). The more I read this forum, the more you guys and Rob Watts convinced me how much sonic quality loss a power amplifier/speaker system has compared to straight to headphones. I never upgraded to HD800 because it was too big for my head. How's the HE1000 for size? I may need to cut myself off this forum or else I might impulsively buy the HE1000.


----------



## longbowbbs

The HE1000 and the HD800's are similar in size. That space gives some wicked soundstage though. Both are pretty lite too so do not let the size stop you from trying them.


----------



## esimms86

ecwl said:


> I'm listening to Pollini play Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 2 through DAVE and my HD650. Sounds great. I already get a lot more (1 quantum leap?) off the Mojo over an optimized Benchmark DAC1 (Nordost Heimdall 2 power cord/Peachtree X1 USB-S/PDIF adaptor to lower jitter on the input side). DAVE is as Esau says 2 quantum leaps over Mojo. Reading this column made me order some replacement ear pads for the HD650 last week from Japan (cheapest source on Amazon Canada because my local Sennheiser dealers are nuts and wouldn't sell or replace the pads). The more I read this forum, the more you guys and Rob Watts convinced me how much sonic quality loss a power amplifier/speaker system has compared to straight to headphones. I never upgraded to HD800 because it was too big for my head. How's the HE1000 for size? I may need to cut myself off this forum or else I might impulsively buy the HE1000.




As longbowbbs says, the HD800 and HE1000 are comparable in size. The HE1000 is not uncomfortable but the HD800 practically feels like you're not wearing anything on your head. It's easily the most comfortable headphone I've ever worn.

I did some listening the other day with DAVE connected to my main speaker system. While it sounded phenomenal, it did not equal the experience of listening through headphones. The amount of detail goes up a few notches when listening through headphone, at least in my experience. I also have to admit that I have a Marantz PM KI integrated which means that DAVE is compromised by having a preamp in the system. Perhaps the difference between headphones and loudspeakers would be narrowed without the preamp in play but I don't believe that they'd ever be qualitatively equivalent.


----------



## esimms86

priaptor said:


> Esau,
> 
> Thanks.  I know Andy very well from my early days in this hobby.  I am going to be in The City last week of April so I will stop by..
> 
> ...




Sounds like a plan Howie. Make sure to call ahead of time to verify that Andy has at least a demo in stock.

Esau


----------



## ecwl

Sounds like my head is just too small for the HE1000 too.
 Since this is a head-fi forum, it's too bad not enough people are commenting on how much more transparent the digital volume control of the DAVE is compared to other preamps, even state of the art preamplifiers, in stereo/speaker systems. I think we hear this a little bit from people who used to use other headphone amplifiers (with passive analog volume controls) discuss this issue a bit but it's hard to tease out whether the loss of transparency in those situations are from the amplification or the preamplification. But I can say DAVE's digital volume control (and in fact Mojo's) is significantly more transparent than many high-end solid-state preamplifiers.
 Esau, if you don't need the Marantz PM KI as a preamplifier for other sources, you should really look into a power amplifier to pair with the DAVE. I think you'll be shocked by the sonic improvements. The challenge is finding the right power amplifier to pair with the DAVE before Rob Watts's new digital amplifier comes out...


----------



## rgs9200m

To ecwl above: the current HE1000 has been made smaller than the original (and there are reports that it is actually too small for those with larger heads who need to put it on the loosest setting).
 I have the original one with a medium size head but I would not want it smaller.
 So I *think* you would be just fine with a smaller head size and the current model. (The length of the strap is the change that was made  --they made it shorter--  a few weeks after its initial release.)
 By the way, the HE1000 is very, very comfy. I actually find it more comfy than the HD800 because, just personal here, I prefer the wider ridge that rests against the surface of my head on the HE1000.
 The HD800 is not uncomfortable, but I just like that fatter soft surface of the HEK.


----------



## esimms86

ecwl said:
			
		

> .
> Esau, if you don't need the Marantz PM KI as a preamplifier for other sources, you should really look into a power amplifier to pair with the DAVE. I think you'll be shocked by the sonic improvements. The challenge is finding the right power amplifier to pair with the DAVE before Rob Watts's new digital amplifier comes out...




Thanks ecwl. When I bought the PM KI I was just transitioning from a receiver based 5.1 home theater system to a 2.1 stereo system. At that time the PM KI was the best component in my system. It was also a steal as I bought a demo unit in perfect condition for 2500 USD(the retail price was 3995 USD). It still sounds awesome but even I have to agree that it's now the weakest component in my system. I've thought of replacing it with a power amp many times and maybe now I will since my search for high quality DACs is finally over. Then again, the upcoming Chord amp, of course, promises wonderful synergy with DAVE so I should probably let my wallet recover and play wait to see.


----------



## speedracer1

esimms86 said:


> Priaptor, if you're looking for a dedicated amp/DAC setup for headphones then I can't recommend DAVE highly enough. I haven't heard Hugo but I have a Chord Mojo(which I love for music on the go) and DAVE is 2 quantum leaps better than the Mojo.
> 
> BTW, I contacted Bluebird Music and they put me in touch with Sound By Singer(one of the best known audiophile brick and mortar salons in NY City) where Andrew Singer took great care of me. If you end up doing business with him tell him I sent you.
> 
> ...


 
 I got to the dealer this past Friday and got a chance to listen to the Cord Dave.  Here are my listening impressions:

  
*Background:*
 Audiophile 35 + years and a musician along with a technical education and appreciations for the arts.  I travel nearly 4 hours each day to/from my office I have spent most of the past two years focused on building by experience in the portable realm of digital audio.  Prior to this I was strictly a 2 channel guy and have had many wonderful pieces of very fine audio equipment over the years. At this point my portable equipment includes the Red Wine Audio (RWA) modified AK380 plus the RWAK 380 external amp, Shure KSE,1500's, JH Layla's, Nobel K10's and the reliable Cord Hugo.  I also have the HiFiMan HE-1000's and the Sen HD 800's.  At this point I'm looking to expand my digital audio experience into a home system and I'm considering the Blue Hawaii along with the Stax 009 or the Lampi big 7 heavy along with the HE-1000's, HiFiMan 650’s and Sen HD 800's.  
  
*Listening experience and impressions:*
 This past Friday I traveled to my local NYC dealer (Sound by Singer) and had a private appointment with Andrew (proprietor) to listen to the Cord Dave along with my equipment (listed above) and also a chance to listen to other equipment the dealer has in his high-end listening room.  
  

 My take away after about an hour using very familiar music along with the RWAK380 player connected optically to the Cord Dave feeding my HE-1000's or Sen HD 800's is I would definitely not purchase the Dave!

  

 In all honesty the Dave was a 15% improvment over the portable system I already own connected to the HE-1000's.  I was really hoping to hear a significant difference in sound quality coming from the HE-1000 with the Dave as a source.  My conclusion is to consider dropping 13k for a Dac that I would use to solely connect to a set of headphones is an absolute waste of money!  I also realize that the AK player does not have USB output so I couldn’t clearly hear Dave it at its best and that’s a real limitation with the AK unit.
  

 When I had the dealer demonstrate the same tracks I was originally listening to using a music server connected this time via USB and replacing the HE-1000 with a beautiful amp and pair of speakers the music reproduction was really outstanding.

  

 Cord Dave is a beautiful piece of equipment and unless you have great equipment in the chain (Amps, Speakers) NOT headphones it’s pointless.

  

 Sincerely,

 Your friend in audio,

 -Speed


----------



## raypin

mmm......although the Chord Dave is already  available here, I have not auditioned it yet. But based on your post, I feel the same way as the Chord Hugo TT: the USB (HD) makes the TT sound better than using the optical (using my AK 240 or 380 cu as transport). I don't know why that is the case. Maybe the problem lies with  my optical cable (the one that came with the Aurender Flow)????


----------



## speedracer1

raypin said:


> mmm......althought the Chord Dave is already   available here, I have not auditioned it yet. But based on your post, I feel the same way as the Chord Hugo TT: the USB (HD) makes the TT sound better than using the optical (using my AK 240 or 380 cu as transport). I don't know why that is the case. Maybe the problem lies with  my optical cable (the one that came with the Aurender Flow)????


 
 Hello my friend,
  
 From everything I have read or understand USB is a superior transport mechanism over the Toslink (optical) input its unfortunate AK doesn't provide it as an output.  the Aurender Flow USB output only with 2 TB of storage is exactly what I heard at the audio dealers store and sounds fantastic...
  
 -Speed


----------



## raypin

mmm......yeah, thanks for that. Same thing with the Aurender Flow: usb sounds better than AK through optical. Now if only I can install the Aurender PC driver on my Surface Book!?? It does not work but it works on my Surface Pro 3 and Sony Vaio Duo 13 (all three on Windows 10).
  
 Btt, I think the Chord Dave would still be a wonderful amp/dac for headphones but it probably needs a very good tube amplifier?? With the QBD76 and the Sustain84 from Cypher Labs (a mid-tier tube amp), my headphones experience was taken to a different level. I'm thinking perhaps the Alo Audio Studio Six or similar with the Dave??


----------



## bmichels

speedracer1 said:


> I got to the dealer this past Friday and got a chance to listen to the Cord Dave.  Here are my listening impressions:
> 
> 
> *Background:*
> ...


 
  
 Speedracer1,
  
 From what I read from you, may be it was the RWAK380>Tosklink that was the limitation.   So may be a DAVE + a basic USB desktop Music server (and still using your HE1000 directly on the DAVE) may be the upgrade you are looking for, without need for a AMP+Speakers set-up ?
  
 aside question:  Since I am considering purchasing a RWAK380cu myself (to upgrade my RWAK100+HUGO), could you tell me how much better the RWAK380 is compared to the AK380 ?  did you hear a real SQ improvement ?   And do you really need the RWAKAmp when you use your IEM (shure, Layla...) or is the RWAK alone enough ?
  
 Last question:  which one you prefer between Shure KSE 1500's, JH Layla's &  Nobel K10's ?
  
 thanks


----------



## bmichels

raypin said:


> mmm......yeah, thanks for that. Same thing with the Aurender Flow: usb sounds better than AK through optical. Now if only I can install the Aurender PC driver on my Surface Book!?? It does not work but it works on my Surface Pro 3 and Sony Vaio Duo 13 (all three on Windows 10).


 
  
 I have always been confused about this FLOW:
  
 - for me is is some type of DAP without interface !  
 So, when you connect it to a SurfacePro3 or any other phone or Tablet, can you play the music that is on the 1 or 2 To HD inside the FLOW ? I understood that is is not possible (at least with a phone or iPAD)...and therefore I do not see the usage of this internal HD !?
  
 - what software player do you use on the SurfacePro3 when you play it through the Flow ?  Have you tried to use ROON ? 
  
Thanks in advance for your explanations


----------



## speedracer1

bmichels said:


> From what I read from you, may be it was the RWAK380>Tosklink that was the limitation.   So may be a DAVE + a basic USB desktop Music server (and still using your HE1000 directly on the DAVE) may be the upgrade you are looking for, without need for a AMP+Speakers set-up ?
> 
> aside question:  Since I am considering purchasing a RWAK380cu myself (to upgrade my RWAK100+HUGO), could you tell me how much better the RWAK380 is compared to the AK380 ?  did you hear a real SQ improvement ?   And do you really need the RWAKAmp when you use your IEM (shure, Layla...) or is the RWAK alone enough ?
> 
> thanks


 
 Hello bmichels,
  
 Your comments are correct.  My first step should be to upgrade to the music server via USB and purchase the Dave and keep my HE-1000's and it should make a large difference in sound quality with the Dave to forget the amp and speakers for the moment. I should go back to the dealer just to see if I can give that combo a listen.  It's late in NY (time wise) and I need to get some sleep and I will answer the rest of your question tomorrow.  It always my pleasure to speak with you.
  
 Sincerely,
 Your friend in audio.
 -Speed


----------



## raypin

mmm......yeah, the Aurender Flow is an odd duck in the pond. Aurender can make it a standalone DAP but the size is a major problem (it has all the elements of a DAP except standalone U.I. for playback, although it has physical buttons on the side for playback). So, it is an amp/dac for your computers and DAPs with optical that just so happens to have its own storage solution (a 2 TB flash drive) that it can't play music on, on its own. You need a computer to make the Aurender Flow play music (even the ones on internal storage) lol! Perhaps the designers at Aurender were smoking a different weed when they designed this product. lol! But the sound is very good.
  
 I'll try Roon (still Foobar for me at the moment). Thanks.


----------



## ecwl

I'm not sure if DAVE's USB input is so dramatically better than the Toslink that it'll necessarily change your mind. Sonic improvements can be subjective and we all value the same improvements differently from a financial standpoint. It's probably worthwhile going back to recheck. The only thing I was wondering about was that AK380 has no crossfeed but I wonder if you also turned off crossfeed when you're listening to DAVE so that the sound resembles more what you're used to. I prefer DAVE with crossfeed set to 3 which was what Rob Watts recommended because he feels it resembles most what we get through speakers. But if you're used to AK380 which has no crossfeed, it's best to make sure you're comparing apples to apples and turn DAVE's crossfeed off... Btw, crossfeed is always off when listening through speakers.


----------



## lovethatsound

Hi speedracer1
1st of all try and find out how many hours the Dave as on it.Their is not much difference between the optical and usb,usb being slightly better than optical.I don't use crossfeed,not a fan of it at all,If you try Dave again and you still don't like it,then the Daves not for you


----------



## JaZZ

speedracer1 said:


> esimms86 said:
> 
> 
> > Priaptor, if you're looking for a dedicated amp/DAC setup for headphones then I can't recommend DAVE highly enough. I haven't heard Hugo but I have a Chord Mojo(which I love for music on the go) and DAVE is 2 quantum leaps better than the Mojo.
> ...


 
  
 Hi Speedracer
  
 Firstly, I'm not disputing your experience, which is your own. And I don't think USB will make that much of a difference (without systematic comparison I don't notice a clear difference). The state of burn-in may be of some relevance, though.
  
 I for one wouldn't want to renounce DAVE for headphone listening anymore. It provides a whole new level of sound quality, even compared to the Hugo. Especially low-level resolution and (consequently) spatial depth are outstanding, sometimes breathtaking. Nevertheless, the spectacularlty is never in the way of musicality, quite the opposite, it's part of a new depth and intensity of the musical experience.


----------



## Mojo ideas

shuttlepod said:


> Priaptor:  If there is no dealer in your area, I would think that Bluebird Music, the US/Canadian importer for Chord in Toronto, might be willing to deal with you directly (even if their website states that they do not sell directly to consumers). At the very least, they may have some suggestions as it is in their interest to make sure potential customers like you get served.


 No I don't think Bluebird will take a direct sale he will pass you on to a dealer though


----------



## speedracer1

ecwl said:


> I'm not sure if DAVE's USB input is so dramatically better than the Toslink that it'll necessarily change your mind. Sonic improvements can be subjective and we all value the same improvements differently from a financial standpoint. It's probably worthwhile going back to recheck. The only thing I was wondering about was that AK380 has no crossfeed but I wonder if you also turned off crossfeed when you're listening to DAVE so that the sound resembles more what you're used to. I prefer DAVE with crossfeed set to 3 which was what Rob Watts recommended because he feels it resembles most what we get through speakers. But if you're used to AK380 which has no crossfeed, it's best to make sure you're comparing apples to apples and turn DAVE's crossfeed off... Btw, crossfeed is always off when listening through speakers.


 
 Thank you ecwl,
  
 The AK player does not have a crossfeed function built-in and while I was listening to Dave the crossfeed was off.  This is an excellent point and it could help improve my listening experience with my headphones.  Andrew from Sound by Singer strongly felt the Toslink has terrible limitations and the USB was the absolute best choice between the two regarding sound quality.  I was an avid follower of the Cord Hugo thread from the very beginning and I clearly remember reading one of Rob's post and he said he preferred the optical Toslink connection as it sounded best with the Cord Hugo.  At that point, I ordered the Hugo from Moon Audio and the Toslink cable from Sysconcept Inc. in Canada and have enjoyed the Hugo ever since.. However that said the Cord Hugo is clearly not Dave so I tempered the response and said nothing to the audio dealer.
  
 ecwl as a person who is a Cord Dave owner I clearly respect your opinion that the USB input may not be so dramatically better and I may need to re-listen to the music I've heard a second time with the crossfeed enabled on Dave.  But the sound difference was orders an order of magnitude improvement using the amp and speakers in the room. 
  
 Sincerely,
 Your friend in audio,
 -Speed


----------



## speedracer1

lovethatsound said:


> Hi speedracer1
> 1st of all try and find out how many hours the Dave as on it.Their is not much difference between the optical and usb,usb being slightly better than optical.I don't use crossfeed,not a fan of it at all,If you try Dave again and you still don't like it,then the Dave's not for you


 
 Hi lovethatsound,
  
 Thank you you for reply and it is exactly in-line with what others have said in that their is not much of a difference between the optical and usb.  I honestly didn't ask Andrew how many hours the Cord Dave had clocked on it.  But I do recall that Andrew mentioned he had the Cord Dave since January and he has sold 5.  I was really looking and keenly listening for that true depth of sound ("Z" axis) with respect to some great recordings I have.  With the HE-1000's the depth of the sound-stage was improved by at most 10-15% over my portable gear but when we went to the amp and speakers it was just a an order of magnitude of difference so much so that any full size cans at least that I own completely pail in comparison... I mean smoked!   So my present thought process is consider the Aurender music server via USB connected to the Cord Dave and use my full size cans until I can really step-up with a great pair of speakers.  I would love to know what speakers others on this forum have while listening to Dave and I would like to know what Rob has when he spends time in-front of the Dave.  I think understanding the entire audio chain is critical with respect to end-to-end sound.
  
 Sincerely,
 Your friend in audio,
 -Speed


----------



## speedracer1

jazz said:


> Hi Speedracer
> 
> Firstly, I'm not disputing your experience, which is your own. And I don't think USB will make that much of a difference (without systematic comparison I don't notice a clear difference). The state of burn-in may be of some relevance, though.
> 
> I for one wouldn't want to renounce DAVE for headphone listening anymore. It provides a whole new level of sound quality, even compared to the Hugo. Especially low-level resolution and (consequently) spatial depth are outstanding, sometimes breathtaking. Nevertheless, the spectacularlty is never in the way of musicality, quite the opposite, it's part of a new depth and intensity of the musical experience.


 
 Hi Jazz,
  
 Thank you for your reply.  
  
 I'm just responding to each person in sequence who was kind enough to reply so please excuse any elements that may seem to renounce headphone listening as I mean no disrespect.  The Cord Dave is a outstanding piece and I'm clearly considering an opportunity to purchase one in the near future.  I'm very interested in trying to find my path (trajectory) with regard to the transition from portable digital audio into a truly satisfying home listening experience and the deliberate steps necessary to accomplish this task. I would greatly appreciate if some of the Cord Dave owners/contributors here would be kind enough to share there audio chains from end-to-end as it would clearly help me understand and focus my search.  I would like to go back to the dealer in NYC and give Dave a second listen soon.
  
 Sincerely,
 Your friend in audio,
 -Speed


----------



## JaZZ

speedracer1 said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Speedracer
> ...


 
  
 My chain is in my signature:
  
 FiiO X5 II ― Chord Dave ― Sennheiser HD 800 / HiFiMan HE1000
 FiiO X5 II ― Chord Dave ― Stax SRM-727II ― Electrostat 1 / 2
  
 I don't listen to speakers anymore (due to ear problems – tinnitus and a special kind of hyperacusis), but as a former fanatic speaker builder I really miss this experience, as I can imagine how good DAVE would sound on my speaker system.


----------



## speedracer1

jazz said:


> My chain is in my signature:
> 
> FiiO X5 II ― Chord Dave ― Sennheiser HD 800 / HiFiMan HE1000
> FiiO X5 II ― Chord Dave ― Stax SRM-727II ― Electrostat 1 / 2
> ...


 
 Thank you Jazz,

  
 I'm very sorry to learn about your tinnitus and a special kind of hyperacusis.  Thank goodness the headphone technology is improving all the time and I'm hoping at some point we can all experience a truly immersive sound similar to having an amazing pair of speakers like ones I’m sure you have built wrapped around our ears.
  

 Sincerely,

 -Speed


----------



## shuttlepod

Hi Speed--
  
 I listen mostly to my two-channel system and thought it sounded great with DAVE. You can see the system by looking at my profile. You won't be able to find many, or just about any, of my system components at a standard dealer. But it may be of interest anyway.


----------



## JaZZ

speedracer1 said:


> I'm very sorry to learn about your tinnitus and a special kind of hyperacusis.  Thank goodness the headphone technology is improving all the time and I'm hoping at some point we can all experience a truly immersive sound similar to having an amazing pair of speakers like ones I’m sure you have built wrapped around our ears.


 
  
 The good thing about my headphone orientation is that my neighbours aren't bothered by my strange music (anymore). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 And myself I can live very well with headphones now – which I always had a weakness for anyway.


----------



## esimms86

Auralic Aries>Lightspeed 10G usb cable>DAVE>Marantz PM KI integrated amp>Gallo Strada speakers/Gallo TR3 subwoofer 

All components plugged into a PS Audio P5 power conditioner

Strada speakers mounted on Mapleshade stands

Audience AU24E speaker cables and interconnects

Music sits on a Synology DS412+ NAS drive

--------------------------------------------------------------

2012 MacBook Pro with Jriver media center>Lightspeed 10G usb cable>DAVE>HE10000

DAVE is plugged into a basic power strip with a surge protector circuit

Hope this helps.

- Esau
-------------------------------------------------------------


You could load a trial copy of Jriver on a laptop(Mac or PC versions available), add in a few music samples for demo purposes, and then throw in your favorite usb cable. Load your laptop and usb cable into a carrying bag and head back to Sound By Singer for another demo.


----------



## Mojo ideas

speedracer1 said:


> Hi lovethatsound,
> 
> Thank you you for reply and it is exactly in-line with what others have said in that their is not much of a difference between the optical and usb.  I honestly didn't ask Andrew how many hours the Cord Dave had clocked on it.  But I do recall that Andrew mentioned he had the Cord Dave since January and he has sold 5.  I was really looking and keenly listening for that true depth of sound ("Z" axis) with respect to some great recordings I have.  With the HE-1000's the depth of the sound-stage was improved by at most 10-15% over my portable gear but when we went to the amp and speakers it was just a an order of magnitude of difference so much so that any full size cans at least that I own completely pail in comparison... I mean smoked!   So my present thought process is consider the Aurender music server via USB connected to the Cord Dave and use my full size cans until I can really step-up with a great pair of speakers.  I would love to know what speakers others on this forum have while listening to Dave and I would like to know what Rob has when he spends time in-front of the Dave.  I think understanding the entire audio chain is critical with respect to end-to-end sound.
> 
> ...


 Chord as in musical Chord. Not cord something that ties your Pajamas together


----------



## speedracer1

See below...


----------



## speedracer1

mojo ideas said:


> Chord as in musical Chord. Not cord something that ties your Pajamas together


 
  
  Hi John, 
  
 Lol ok..Thank you.  Could you or Rob answer some of the questions I raised?
  
 Sincerely,
 -Speed


----------



## REXNFX

speedracer1 said:


> Hello my friend,
> 
> From everything I have read or understand USB is a superior transport mechanism over the Toslink (optical) input its unfortunate AK doesn't provide it as an output.  the Aurender Flow USB output only with 2 TB of storage is exactly what I heard at the audio dealers store and sounds fantastic...
> 
> -Speed


 
 Are you sure it was an Aurender FLOW DAP and not an Aurender N100H Server that you heard? Coz I think the FLOW only can have max 1TB....The other thing is did you get to compare the exact same music files?


----------



## speedracer1

rexnfx said:


> Are you sure it was an Aurender FLOW DAP and not an Aurender N100H Server that you heard? Coz I think the FLOW only can have max 1TB....The other thing is did you get to compare the exact same music files?


 
 Hi RESNFX,
  
 Yes it could have been the Aurender Server I'm honestly not familiar with the product line but I distinctly remember Andrew saying it was a server with 2TB of storage not 4TB and only a USB output and it was 1/2 price of the Aurender TOTL and I think that server was 8k.
  
 We listened to the Bill Evans Trio, Waltz for Debby (Take 2) @ 24/192kHz.  This was the same on both sources namely my RWAK 380 and the Aurender music server and it's a beautiful well recorded live performance.  
  
 I'm looking at this potential purchase as I'm stepping into a great sounding  TOTL Dac player (for home use) that I will be using initially with headphones but I'm looking to transition to a great pair of loudspeakers as soon as I'm able too.  I may keep one or two headphones for private listening but not sure.  What loudspeakers are you using with your Dac?  What does your entire audio chain look like?
  
 Thank you and sincerely,
 -Speed


----------



## ecwl

My stereo setup is in my profile. My speakers are the Dynaudio C1 Signature. They are driven by Sanders Magtech amplifier because I don't know what's a better amplifier to upgrade to (because many have euphonic distortions on Stereophile measurements and even load-invariant class D amplifiers that measure well would have transient and timing issues). The Chord DAVE is connected to my Sanders Magtech and also my two Sunfire subwoofers. I used a real-time analyzer to set the Sunfire's crossover/phase/volume to integrate best with the Dynaudio C1 Signature speakers. I bought the CAPSv3 Carbon design from Small Green Computer (design specifications on the Computer Audiophile website).
  
 So for Speedracer, I think you can start backwards. Start with what headphones you like (neutral vs not) and then pick the speakers you like best (neutral, e.g. Magico, Dynaudio, Focal, PSB vs "designed" e.g. B&W, Wilson, Sonus Farber). Afterwards, you can decide whether you want full-range +/- subwoofers or monitors + subwoofers. And then you can decide what's a neutral amplifier that can drive the speakers well. If you're never going to change the speakers, you can even pick a load-variant amplifier as long as the amplifier has good synergy with the speakers. Otherwise, pick a reasonable class A/AB load-invariant amplifier. And then if your mind is set on Chord DAVE, just figure out what user interface you want for your computer music server. Because DAVE is really quite source-independent, you're essentially picking user interface. Build your own machine if you want JRiver/JRemote or like me, if you need to add a little bit of DSP to help tame the room acoustics (which I know is suboptimal if I want to get the best from DAVE). Get Meridian Sooloos if you like their interface. Aurender has its own user interface. Auralic has their own. Or get the Sonore Sonicorbiter SE if you like Roon to run on your PC/Mac.


----------



## REXNFX

speedracer1 said:


> Hi RESNFX,
> 
> Yes it could have been the Aurender Server I'm honestly not familiar with the product line but I distinctly remember Andrew saying it was a server with 2TB of storage not 4TB and only a USB output and it was 1/2 price of the Aurender TOTL and I think that server was 8k.
> 
> ...


 
 I'm actually a vinyl guy, Pink Triangle deck, Conrad Johnson amps, B&W speakers. Been looking for a digital front end since the 80's LOL...I've heard the other Chord DAC's but not the DAVE, hoping it may equal my vinyl set up. What is interesting from your listening experience is that the digital transport made a big difference to SQ whereas others have stated that the DAVE sounds the same whatever feeds it.


----------



## yellowblue

I am a bit surprised that the Dave sounds so fantastic with my Oriolus Iems. Sheer bass, dynamics and musicality. Some more of you trying Iems with the Dave?


----------



## Amomentiny

romaz said:


> Unfortunately, I have not found electrostatics to portray convincing depth.  Having once owned an SR-009 and having recently listened to the SR-009 again (but also the new Mr. Speakers Electrostatic, HiFiMan Shangri-La and Orpheus HE1060), there is no comparing the clarity and detail that these headphones portray but the depth I hear is not as good as what I get with the HE-1000 or even the Abyss.  To be fair, I have yet to hear any electrostatic headphone driven by the DAVE and so I will withhold final judgement until that happens (hopefully, it will happen soon thanks to @Crashem) but my feeling is that it won’t be as good especially since you are forced to use an intermediary amp between the DAVE and an electrostatic headphone.


 
Hey romaz,Have you tried using like this?  DAVE → SRM-727(bypass mode)  → SR-009 
"Direct" connection to DAVE’s preamplifier .This system can do to avoid (intermediary amp) pollution?


----------



## metalboss

*DAVE HiFi News Review!* http://bit.ly/1U0mG1d


----------



## Mython

metalboss said:


> *DAVE HiFi News Review!* http://bit.ly/1U0mG1d


 
  

  


> *"Especially with archive recordings, the switch from PCM+ to DSD+ mode pays dividends in the sharpening-up of the sonic picture and instrumental timbres alike, and freeing just a shade more of that considerable dynamic ability."*


 
  
  
 Hmmm... well, that's controversial, if nothing else!


----------



## Mython

Congratulations on another fine press review, Rob


----------



## JaZZ

mython said:


> _Watts has also programmed his WTA filter to ignore test impulse patterns so it’s impossible to ‘see’ its pre/post ringing behaviour in the time domain..._


 
  
@Rob Watts: What's the reason for this?


----------



## ecwl

I realize sometimes there's understanding something and then there's really understanding something. I've always known from what Rob Watts has said in this column that in order to allow the S/PDIF coaxial/BNC input of DAVE to accept 384kHz/24-bit signals, they are not galvanically isolated. I have a USB source and Toslink source. But I also needed room correction/parametric EQ for my video system so I use a miniDSP product to implement the DSP and connect it's coaxial output to Chord DAVE. I said to myself, even if there is some RF/ground noise getting into the DAVE when I'm playing music, I should just ignore it because I'm not going to hook and unhook the BNC cable every time I want to listen to music. Besides the miniDSP product already has isolation transformer on the output.

My dealer and I were talking about cables and so I changed some in my video system but I wasn't ready to test them yet so I went back to listening to music. I couldn't understand why there's improvement to the sound. So I put back the original cables and then just plug in and unplug the BNC connection to the DAVE, something I told myself I would never bother to do for convenience. Yup, that was what made the difference.

I thought I would share in case people are still using suboptimal BNC inputs into DAVE. If you can, switch over to Toslink. I'm guessing if you have good sources like Chord CD players, it probably doesn't matter. But if like me, your other sources aren't the greatest, you may want to not use the BNC inputs. Or unplug them for optimal musical enjoyment.


----------



## paulchiu

ecwl said:


> I realize sometimes there's understanding something and then there's really understanding something. I've always known from what Rob Watts has said in this column that in order to allow the S/PDIF coaxial/BNC input of DAVE to accept 384kHz/24-bit signals, they are not galvanically isolated. I have a USB source and Toslink source. But I also needed room correction/parametric EQ for my video system so I use a miniDSP product to implement the DSP and connect it's coaxial output to Chord DAVE. I said to myself, even if there is some RF/ground noise getting into the DAVE when I'm playing music, I should just ignore it because I'm not going to hook and unhook the BNC cable every time I want to listen to music. Besides the miniDSP product already has isolation transformer on the output.
> 
> My dealer and I were talking about cables and so I changed some in my video system but I wasn't ready to test them yet so I went back to listening to music. I couldn't understand why there's improvement to the sound. So I put back the original cables and then just plug in and unplug the BNC connection to the DAVE, something I told myself I would never bother to do for convenience. Yup, that was what made the difference.
> 
> I thought I would share in case people are still using suboptimal BNC inputs into DAVE. If you can, switch over to Toslink. I'm guessing if you have good sources like Chord CD players, it probably doesn't matter. But if like me, your other sources aren't the greatest, you may want to not use the BNC inputs. Or unplug them for optimal musical enjoyment.


 
  
 Can you use USB input to Dave within the realm of your video/audio setup?  Shouldn't that be better sounding than optical?


----------



## ecwl

paulchiu said:


> Can you use USB input to Dave within the realm of your video/audio setup?  Shouldn't that be better sounding than optical?




Audio is always through USB from my computer.
Video at night with headphones is from Oppo BDP-103 Toslink to the Chord DAVE and really the difference between USB and Toslink is really, really small. Or maybe it's really big and I just didn't notice because of the noise from the BNC input...

Video in general is through the Oppo BDP-103 (or PVR to Oppo) and its coaxial output to the miniDSP for parametric EQ and then to BNC into DAVE. That's presumably where the "noise" comes from. I know the miniDSP may be a noisier source than I had expected...

My computer was built to be under-powered to reduce noise output that would affect USB playback because every DAC I've played around with is affected by the USB source. DAVE obviously changed everything.

Yes, theoretically, I could build a completely new desktop to accept video and audio input from Oppo and then use the computer to output the video and audio to DAVE via USB. But that's even a more complex system. You're talking to someone who didn't want to unplug a BNC cable when listening to audio.

Ultimately, I also want to reassure people, the difference is clearly audible but I've lived with the DAVE for over a month and I have always been super ecastitic with its performance. Never did I say to myself, I wonder if DAVE could even sound better by unplugging the BNC input when I'm only listening to music. But now that I've tried it out, I thought I should let people know in case their BNC sources are also noisy. Obviously your mileage may vary...


----------



## Jawed

mython said:


> metalboss said:
> 
> 
> > *DAVE HiFi News Review!* http://bit.ly/1U0mG1d
> ...



I believe he is merely stating that DSD material sounds best when in DSD+ mode, as opposed to PCM+ mode. I don't think it's meant as a comparison of PCM and DSD, per se.


----------



## Rob Watts

Quote:


mython said:


> _Watts has also programmed his WTA filter to ignore test impulse patterns so it’s impossible to ‘see’ its pre/post ringing behaviour in the time domain..._



  
  

  


jazz said:


> @Rob Watts: What's the reason for this?


 
 The WTA algorithm actually uses my own windowing function of the ideal sinc impulse response. I took an awful lot of time (man years) with this, both in listening tests and in trying to understand what was going on - the understanding being used to allow me to try listening to different things. At the end of the day, the algorithm is fine tuned by listening tests, but you need understanding in order to change the critical parameters - in short knowing what those parameters are. Anyway, with the blu CD player, using an impulse response you will get all the coefficients to a 24 bit accuracy, so it would be easy to reverse engineer the WTA algorithm.
  
 Frankly I should not have worried. This industry has its collective head in the sand. I have been publically talking about the importance of very long tap length filters for 17 years and still nobody else bothers about it.  
  
 Rob


----------



## ismewor

Hi Rob.
  
 Just purchased the DAVE, awesome device. and i would like to know which BNC can take the I2S input if possible?
  
  
 Thanks,
 Y


----------



## Rob Watts

Sorry but I2S is not supported as an input with Dave.
  
 Rob


----------



## rkt31

I don't know much but does that mean that there is no pre or post ringing in Dave due to high tap length and wta algorithm ?


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> mython said:
> ...


 
  
 Don't get me wrong: I'm not worried in the least, since DAVE sounds perfect to me. But does that (the windowing function?) mean a single pulse doesn't appear on the oscillogram? How about rectangles?


----------



## ecwl

rob watts said:


> The WTA algorithm actually uses my own windowing function of the ideal sinc impulse response. I took an awful lot of time (man years) with this, both in listening tests and in trying to understand what was going on - the understanding being used to allow me to try listening to different things. At the end of the day, the algorithm is fine tuned by listening tests, but you need understanding in order to change the critical parameters - in short knowing what those parameters are. Anyway, with the blu CD player, using an impulse response you will get all the coefficients to a 24 bit accuracy, so it would be easy to reverse engineer the WTA algorithm.
> 
> Frankly I should not have worried. This industry has its collective head in the sand. I have been publically talking about the importance of very long tap length filters for 17 years and still nobody else bothers about it.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Don't be discouraged. I do see some online people who use software upsampling like HQPlayer, XXHighend or Bug Head Emperor caring about tap length as they are very well aware of your work. So maybe it is good to protect your IP and not let them steal the WTA algorithm. It always sucks to be a great visionary. It takes a long time for regular folks to appreciate the greatness of the vision. I strongly suspect Chord Mojo is now truly bringing in a lot more converts and we lucky Chord DAVE owners are truly blessed by your latest achievement.


----------



## Mython

ecwl said:


> I realize sometimes there's understanding something and then there's really understanding something. I've always known from what Rob Watts has said in this column that in order to allow the S/PDIF coaxial/BNC input of DAVE to accept 384kHz/24-bit signals, they are not galvanically isolated. I have a USB source and Toslink source. But I also needed room correction/parametric EQ for my video system so I use a miniDSP product to implement the DSP and connect it's coaxial output to Chord DAVE. I said to myself, even if there is some RF/ground noise getting into the DAVE when I'm playing music, I should just ignore it because I'm not going to hook and unhook the BNC cable every time I want to listen to music. Besides the miniDSP product already has isolation transformer on the output.
> 
> My dealer and I were talking about cables and so I changed some in my video system but I wasn't ready to test them yet so I went back to listening to music. I couldn't understand why there's improvement to the sound. So I put back the original cables and then just plug in and unplug the BNC connection to the DAVE, something I told myself I would never bother to do for convenience. Yup, that was what made the difference.
> 
> I thought I would share in case people are still using suboptimal BNC inputs into DAVE. If you can, switch over to Toslink. I'm guessing if you have good sources like Chord CD players, it probably doesn't matter. But if like me, your other sources aren't the greatest, you may want to not use the BNC inputs. Or unplug them for optimal musical enjoyment.


 
  
 I am well aware of the miniDSP product (and similar products), although I admit I have not personally heard them.
  
 My reason for being aware of the miniDSP is because of *my interest in Siegfried Linkwitz's LX521.3* dipole loudspeaker (now *LX521.4* in digital-only X-over form)
  
 However, as you will note from my earlier post (linked above), I would prefer to build the LX521.3 with 'analogue active crossover', rather than employing miniDSP for crossover purposes.
  
  
 My concern is that the miniDSP, and others of the same ilk, introduce an ADC->DAC stage into the playback chain, over and above the existing ADC (recording of the original performance) and hi-fi DAC.
  
 I can't imagine shelling-out for a high-end DAC (particularly one as accomplished as DAVE) and then introducing an ADC->DAC stage, with vanilla Cirrus DAC chips, or similar, (generally running at 24/96 in this application). On a theoretical level, at least, it seems to me to be unnecessarily undermining the purity of the end-result.
  
 Am I overlooking something?


----------



## Rob Watts

rkt31 said:


> I don't know much but does that mean that there is no pre or post ringing in Dave due to high tap length and wta algorithm ?


 
 I actually posed this issue as a question on another thread, but did not get an answer.
  
 The ideal response is a sinc impulse response, this means it will have an infinite amount of pre and post ringing. But a filter that has this response will *perfectly* reconstruct a bandwidth limited signal absolutely perfectly with no difference whatsoever, its just displaced in time.
  
 So we have a paradox - the filter that has the most ringing will re-create the signal perfectly with no added ringing whatsoever - but clearly having an infinite amount of ringing is not reproducing the input signal (an impulse) perfectly. How do we explain this contradiction?
  
 This is an incredibly important question as virtually the whole audio industry talks about the importance of no pre-ringing - but they have all got it completely and utterly wrong.
  
 The answer to the conundrum is that an impulse response is an *illegal *signal  - it is not bandwidth limited as it has the same energy at FS/2 as at DC, being a completely flat frequency response - that's why the signal is used for frequency response measurements. But sampling theory absolutely requires bandwidth limited signals - that means at exactly FS/2 the signal level is zero. Indeed, in a properly designed ADC, there will be negligible output at FS/2, so an impulse will never be presented to a DAC using a music file.
  
 So if you use an conventional illegal impulse response signal then the best filter will have the worst ringing; but using music, or a bandwidth limited impulse response, it will actually have the least possible difference from the original continuous analogue signal that was in the ADC - and of course will sound very much closer to the original analogue signal before it was sampled.
  
 Rob


----------



## ecwl

mython said:


> I am well aware of the miniDSP product (and similar products), although I admit I have not personally heard them.
> 
> My reason for being aware of the miniDSP is because of *my interest in Siegfried Linkwitz's LX521.3* dipole loudspeaker (now *LX521.4* in digital-only X-over form)
> 
> ...


 
  
 I don't use ADC. That would be crazy/idiotic as you pointed out. miniDSP nanoDigi 2x8 B takes a digital coaxial or Toslink signal, ASRC it to 24-bit/96kHz (suboptimal, I know, for DAVE) and then applies digital parametric EQ and then outputs it via coaxial. I also run parametric EQ off my music server/PC in JRiver before sending the USB signal to the DAVE. Unfortunately, I have some room acoustic issues that I did not want to correct physically for aesthetic reasons so I have to correct the acoustic issues using subtle parametric EQs.
  
 I am also suspecting that most of the RF/ground noise is coming from my cable company's cable as the DAVE sound is improved if I simply disconnect the cable box HDMI cable from the rest of my system. I'm testing out various scenario to figure out where the major source of noise is coming from and addressing it shortly. In the mean time, listening to music means the BNC input would be unplugged from Chord DAVE.
  
 As a total aside, I'm not familiar with *Siegfried Linkwitz's LX521.3. *However, if you really want to optimize everything and have unlimited resources, you should consider the following. Don't use analog active crossover. Output your digital coaxial/Toslink music source signal into the miniDSP nanoDigi 2x8 B or some other digital crossover device and then split the signal 3-way with crossover and EQ as appropriate and you'll get 3 digital S/PDIF coaxial output that you can send to 3 Chord DAVEs as your DACs and then you can hook up 3 amplifiers to the 3 Chord DAVEs to playback on the speakers.


----------



## AndrewOld

rob watts said:


> I actually posed this issue as a question on another thread, but did not get an answer.
> 
> The ideal response is a sinc impulse response, this means it will have an infinite amount of pre and post ringing. But a filter that has this response will *perfectly* reconstruct a bandwidth limited signal absolutely perfectly with no difference whatsoever, its just displaced in time.
> 
> ...




Thank you very much for this post Rob, it gives me some insight as to why your DACs are so special - I ordered a DAVE a couple of weeks ago, and am so looking forward to getting it. My Hugo and then my Hugo TT have given so much pleasure I just decided that some things are really worth spending money on. All the best.


----------



## Mython

ecwl said:


> I don't use ADC. That would be crazy/idiotic as you pointed out. miniDSP nanoDigi 2x8 B takes a digital coaxial or Toslink signal, ASRC it to 24-bit/96kHz (suboptimal, I know, for DAVE) and then applies digital parametric EQ and then outputs it via coaxial.


 
 Thankyou for clarifying. OK, that makes a lot more sense - evidently I _was_, indeed overlooking something 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  


> ....you can send to 3 Chord DAVEs as your DACs and then you can hook up 3 amplifiers to the 3 Chord DAVEs to playback on the speakers.


 
  
 Sheesh! As it _is_, I'm patiently sitting on the sidelines, until such time as I can get a decent income and afford _one_ DAVE, and now you're egging me on to buy *three*_?!! LOL _


----------



## ecwl

> Originally Posted by *Rob Watts* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> So we have a paradox - the filter that has the most ringing will re-create the signal perfectly with no added ringing whatsoever - but clearly having an infinite amount of ringing is not reproducing the input signal (an impulse) perfectly. How do we explain this contradiction?
> 
> ...


 
  
 So I really don't understand this well as a consumer. But as you increase the tap length, as you get to an infinite amount of ringing, doesn't the the amplitude of the ringing get smaller and smaller so that the final waveform accurately reflect the impulse response because the ringing is so infinitesimally small that it is essentially a flat line?
  
 Because to me, aren't we just talking about Zeno's paradox?
  
 Now that I marginally understand this better, the question on my mind is, with the longer tap length and more ringing at ever smaller amplitudes, does the small amplitude ringing affect what we hear? If we are saying that small signal linearity and noise floor modulation matter, would these small amplitude ringing also matter? Since I love Chord DACs, I suspect the answer is no. And this is because as you pointed out the waveforms are approximating the original signal much better than any other DACs out there because of the improved small signal linearity and noise floor modulation and because the increased tap length captures the transients and timing much more accurately than other DACs limited filtering and tap length.


----------



## Rob Watts

jazz said:


> Don't get me wrong: I'm not worried in the least, since DAVE sounds perfect to me. But does that (the windowing function?) mean a single pulse doesn't appear on the oscillogram? How about rectangles?


 
 OK its pretty simple - I have built in an impulse detector - which is a very unusual signal - and when the FPGA sees the impulse, then the filter is switched out, so it simply returns what is incoming. Its impossible for music to trigger the impulse detector.
  
 Any other signal passes through the WTA normally.
  
 The windowing function is to do with the mathematics of creating the FIR filter coefficients. Once I have calculated those coefficients, they are fixed into the FPGA.
  
 Rob


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Don't get me wrong: I'm not worried in the least, since DAVE sounds perfect to me. But does that (the windowing function?) mean a single pulse doesn't appear on the oscillogram? How about rectangles?
> ...


 
  
 Thanks, Rob, that clears it up. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 An impulse detector! What sort of ringing would DAVE show with a square wave, then? (Let's say at a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz.)


----------



## ecwl

Another thing I'm wondering about now is why other DAC designers did not aim for longer tap lengths in their filter but focused more on ringing. If the long tap length filters are going to generate some very small amplitude ringing, maybe the DAC design would have to be able to handle these small amplitude signals without messing with the rest of the signal. If a DAC fundamentally cannot handle small signal linearity and noise floor modulation, wouldn't having more and more small amplitude ringinging deteriorate the sound further? Meaning that if you're going to design ladder DACs or multi-bit sigma-delta modulator chip DACs, these small amplitude ringing is going to exacerbate your small signal non-linearity and mess up with jitter and increase noise floor modulation. So as a result, you would never choose any filters with a long tap length. But if you have a great DAC design like Pulse Array where you have outstanding low-level linearity and no noise floor modulation, you can keep on increasing the tap length to get as close to the original transients and timing as possible without worrying about the non-consequential ringing...


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> rkt31 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know much but does that mean that there is no pre or post ringing in Dave due to high tap length and wta algorithm ?
> ...


 
  
 I think I understand it. Perfect low-pass filtering means infinite Q means infinite ringing. Infinite Q means that just the resonance frequency itself is affected by the ringing, every frequency below is perfectly reproduced in the time domain (although that's impossible to measure). Any (real-world) low-pass filter with a finite Q factor will introduce transient corruption below the filter frequency to some degree. Right?
  
 So DAVE approaches an infinite Q factor? I've seen measuring data indicating –0.04 dB at 20 kHz, which is pretty good.
  
 However, in the real (non-DAVE) world avoiding pre-ringing may be beneficial, at least the corresponding filter 3 on my Corda Symphony sounded special to my ears (sometimes I considered it the best).


----------



## STR-1

Hi all. I would be grateful for some advice on the advantages of using a server (if that's the right word) with the Dave. My system is currently AK380/Dave/HE1000 and most of my files are 16/44 ALAC rips, although I also have a few higher resolution PCM files (I've nothing against DSD and happy to build up a collection of those files as well if I can make full use of them). I'm not sure the AK380 is sending through the best quality signal (each firmware upgrade seems to alter the sound) and it's certainly not the most convenient way of choosing albums and tracks on the fly to play over a long listening session. I'd like a permanently plugged in storage and play option that I can control easily from my iPad, and most importantly an option that sends the highest quality signal from my music files to the Dave. I don't really know this part of the market but I have read the odd review on one or other of the Aurender servers and the CAD CAT, which seemed very complimentary but those were very expensive bits of kit. I am hoping that in addition to the extra convenience of getting a server I can also achieve a noticeable hike in the quality of sound coming out of the Dave. Thanks in advance for any advice or recommendations.


----------



## Crashem

Rob watts seems feels Dave is well isolated from source and therefore unclear what improvement you will see. However in my experience a good source (i.e. Server) makes a difference. I think you have two choices:

1) network storage and use something like auralic aries/au render: advantage is have specialized audio device attached to dac and leave computer related noise elsewhere. Also typically get more flexibility in terms of location. Negative is that you lose capability of computer for things like up sampling, capabilities of media server, and more complications around setup. 

2) direct connect of computer: in this case, I would look at CAPS server which is build you can find on computeraudiophile.com. If you can't build, I can recommend some stores who can build one to order (pm me). Get an audiophile usb card though. Go linear power supply if you like as well.


----------



## yellowblue

As Romaz namned earlier you can use the Sonic Orbiter SE with Roon. Works really well even for me. If you don´t mind to have an extra core-computer running that could be a good solution - as good sounding as Aurender etc. You can choose a good LPS (or Anker-battery) and good cables if you want to try out if that affects the sound.


----------



## lovethatsound

str-1 said:


> Hi all. I would be grateful for some advice on the advantages of using a server (if that's the right word) with the Dave. My system is currently AK380/Dave/HE1000 and most of my files are 16/44 ALAC rips, although I also have a few higher resolution PCM files (I've nothing against DSD and happy to build up a collection of those files as well if I can make full use of them). I'm not sure the AK380 is sending through the best quality signal (each firmware upgrade seems to alter the sound) and it's certainly not the most convenient way of choosing albums and tracks on the fly to play over a long listening session. I'd like a permanently plugged in storage and play option that I can control easily from my iPad, and most importantly an option that sends the highest quality signal from my music files to the Dave. I don't really know this part of the market but I have read the odd review on one or other of the Aurender servers and the CAD CAT, which seemed very complimentary but those were very expensive bits of kit. I am hoping that in addition to the extra convenience of getting a server I can also achieve a noticeable hike in the quality of sound coming out of the Dave. Thanks in advance for any advice or recommendations.


Hi STR-1
Have a look at the bluesound range,the bluesound vault 2 might be what your looking for,it's got a 2tb hard drive,it can rip cds,download hi res,and stream,you can do it all from your i pad,its fairly cheap, about £1000


----------



## ecwl

lovethatsound said:


> Hi STR-1
> Have a look at the bluesound range,the bluesound vault 2 might be what your looking for,it's got a 2tb hard drive,it can rip cds,download hi res,and stream,you can do it all from your i pad,its fairly cheap, about £1000


 
  
 Except you can't connect the Bluesound Vault 2 via USB to Chord DAVE. But then you can just use Toslink. I looked into this before because my friend who will inherit my QBD76HDSD already owns a Bluesound Vault 2. He was also going to inherit a Toslink cable from me but I'll have to give him a digital coaxial RCA-BNC because I end up using that Toslink cable to isolate my video system mostly from my audio system. For those who cared, I'm using the Toslink between the Oppo and the miniDSP. I'm amazed by the increased depth and smoothness and timbre I get from watching movies. Force Awakens Lightsaber fight scene had these subtle sounds coming from the lightsabers that I never heard before. I'm actually surprised Chord has not built an A/V processor based on Mojo/DAVE technology.


----------



## Christer

Meanwhile over at computer audiophile the plot  seems to thicken a bit comparing DAVE and  the T+A DSD8.
 The guy behind HQ player claims that most of what rob Watts has said about DSD is  either "********" or  "complete ********".He also says that Mojo benefits from external upsampling.
 Claims and counterclaims!
  
 All I know without having auditioned the T+A is that DAVE  is the best DAC I have heard with DXD.
  
 But more voices over at CA seem to be of the opinion that what DAVE actually  does so well could be done even better and a lot cheaper with a powerful i 7 computer.
 And over here Rob Watts claims the industry has got its head in the sand.
  
 Could anybody with more technical knowledge than me comment?
 I have simple taste: I want the best! But if I can save some money and still get the best it would not hurt me at all.


----------



## Crashem

Honestly, I am itching to hear the DAVE's DSD. Best DSD I have heard is out of Lampizator which is completely different approach. Rob Watts has never been much of DSD proponent (understatement there). With my HUGO, it showed. DSD was actually quite bad. Basically looks like DSD is reworked for DAVE so I am sooo curious.

Btw, just saw post above. Doesn't surprise me hqplayer guy saying what he is saying about rob watts. Rob watts could be seen as solidly on the PCM side in DSD/PCM debate and miska is definitely a DSD proponent.


----------



## ecwl

Yeah. It was getting a little heated over at Computer Audiophile T+A DAC8 DSD forum. Miska, creator of HQPlayer is obviously very passionate about his work, just like Rob Watts is about his own. Miska's take is that the PC can do most of the work with HQPlayer, including the upsampling/filtering and of course with much longer tap length. He also thinks the PC can do the noise shaping better. All of this because the PC might have more processing power. And his take seems to be that he can output a DSD256/DSD512 to a good DAC that supports native DSD and he would get the best sound.
  
 And you know people love the PCM vs DSD debate. So they dragged some of Rob Watts said about DSD into it. Moreover, they also commented on the Chord DACs. Of course, what Rob Watts said about DSD as a recording format is that the noise shaping is baked into the file and most of the time, the noise shaping is done at up to -120dB. I think this is when Miska got really involved and upset over the whole thing. Miska in turn completely disagrees because of course, if he were taking a PCM file and then converting it into DSD64/DSD128/DSD256/DSD512 he can potentially noise shape the file to a much lower noise floor with a computer CPU/GPU.
  
 The other issue was that Miska acknowledges that he is not familiar with the Pulse Array design. But it sounds like his take is that since HQPlayer can upsample/filter with long tap lengths and noise shape with lots of computing power, he can feed the upsampled signal to any DAC and as long as the DAC is good at handling the upsampled signal, you're going to get great sound. And then his personal view is that because simpler is better, he thinks that the simplest highest quality 1-bit sigma delta modulation DACs that can handle DSD256/DSD512 paired with his HQPlayer upsampling would offer the best sound.
  
 Miska and another user also commented that with the Chord Mojo, they prefer sending a HQPlayer upsampled 16/44 to 24/704 file via USB into the Chord Mojo, rather than sending the original 16/44 to Chord Mojo. Although the other user later acknowledged that DAVE sounds better with the native file compared to HQPlayer upsampling. I wonder if the issue there might be related to the Chord Mojo USB not being galvanic isolated or if it's true that HQPlayer upsampling is truly superior than Chord Mojo's.
  
 My personal take is this and it obviously would not necessarily apply to Christer. First, I have a low-powered headless computer built for my former DAC and a music server system, running Windows 10, JRiver, with JRiver parametric EQ and remote controlled by my iPad via JRemote. Moreover, I can capture Tidal to play in JRiver with the parametric EQ. I would not give that up for HQPlayer. I'm sure others with Aurender/Auralic/Meridian/Bluesound or other music servers are happy with their user interface that they wouldn't want to mess with HQPlayer. Sometimes pragmatism takes over.
  
 The other issue is that Miska's upsampling/filtering may provide more CPU/GPU/computational power than Rob Watts's FPGA but there is also the proprietary algorithm of the WTA filter. Rob Watts has said in the past when WTA filter was first developed, he found that WTA filter with 256 taps sounds better than a different more standard filter with much longer tap length. So it's unclear if Miska's filters are always better sounding even with more computational power.
  
 More importantly, Rob Watts has discussed the advantages of Pulse Array DACs which standard 1-bit sigma-delta modulation, multi-bit sigma-delta modulation chips and ladder DACs don't have. So even if Miska is right about using the PC and HQPlayer being better than FPGA, you still have to contend with the fact that you'd still want the best Pulse Array DAC which is in Chord DAVE (unless you don't think Pulse Array DAC matters).
  
 But as with everything in audio, there are always lots of strong opinions. For me, I'm happy with Chord DAVE and Mojo. I'm happy with Rob Watts's explanations why I'm super happy with Chord DAVE and Mojo so I'm sticking with them.


----------



## rkt31

@ecwl, Hq player is a bit difficult to set. can you please give the link for the best sq setting in Hq player ? i want to compare through mojo , an unaltered CD quality stream via foobar and upsampled stream from Hq player !


----------



## ecwl

rkt31 said:


> @ecwl, Hq player is a bit difficult to set. can you please give the link for the best sq setting in Hq player ? i want to compare through mojo , an unaltered CD quality stream via foobar and upsampled stream from Hq player !




I have no idea what Miska or the other user on Computer Audiophile forum used for their HQPlayer setting. I don't even use HQPlayer. Just doesn't fit my preference for user interface or my hardware to begin with. But I think your questions basically answer everything. It doesn't matter how great a software can theoretically be, if the users can't figure out how to use it, you're not going to get great sound out of it.


----------



## Crashem

ecwl said:


> I have no idea what Miska or the other user on Computer Audiophile forum used for their HQPlayer setting. I don't even use HQPlayer. Just doesn't fit my preference for user interface or my hardware to begin with. But I think your questions basically answer everything. It doesn't matter how great a software can theoretically be, if the users can't figure out how to use it, you're not going to get great sound out of it.


 
  
 I think most just use another front end.  Roon + HQPlayer is very popular


----------



## rayleemw

I've been following this thread from the start and just made the decision to get the DAVE.  I've been using the Hugo for awhile and I use it in my home stereo setup.  Thanks for all the thoughts and reviews of DAVE it's been very helpful.
  
 Now the problem for me is how I can actually get it.  I live in Hong Kong and I'm wondering if anyone here knows any local retailers that sell them?  
  
 My next option is to buy online from one of the online UK retailers.  Any suggestions for a reliable UK retailer that sells internationally?  Thanks for the suggestions!


----------



## analogmusic

rayleemw said:


> I've been following this thread from the start and just made the decision to get the DAVE.  I've been using the Hugo for awhile and I use it in my home stereo setup.  Thanks for all the thoughts and reviews of DAVE it's been very helpful.
> 
> Now the problem for me is how I can actually get it.  I live in Hong Kong and I'm wondering if anyone here knows any local retailers that sell them?
> 
> My next option is to buy online from one of the online UK retailers.  Any suggestions for a reliable UK retailer that sells internationally?  Thanks for the suggestions!




Try Dubai audio  they are pretty good

http://dubaiaudio.com/

Ok I spoke to them, and can't ship internationally, so if you have a friend in Dubai, of course your friend can buy it from them and ship it to you.


----------



## Christer

crashem said:


> Honestly, I am itching to hear the DAVE's DSD. Best DSD I have heard is out of Lampizator which is completely different approach. Rob Watts has never been much of DSD proponent (understatement there). With my HUGO, it showed. DSD was actually quite bad. Basically looks like DSD is reworked for DAVE so I am sooo curious.
> 
> Btw, just saw post above. Doesn't surprise me hqplayer guy saying what he is saying about rob watts. Rob watts could be seen as solidly on the PCM side in DSD/PCM debate and miska is definitely a DSD proponent.


 

 I do not agree that DSD sounds bad via Hugo, on the contrary it can  sound very good indeed provided the recording is well done. But not  quite as good as the best HD PCM imho.
 It might be interesting to note, that Jared Sacks actually preferred Hugo over a well known and very popular,made in Canada, DAC,that is supposed to play DSD natively with his excellent  DSD 64 recording of Mahler's 9th, and other of his own recordings if I remember Ted's quote  correctly.
 Hugo is imho still one of the very best DACs out there imho. I use mine almost daily.
 But DAVE is even better.


----------



## Crashem

christer said:


> I do not agree that DSD sounds bad via Hugo, on the contrary it can  sound very good indeed provided the recording is well done. But not  quite as good as the best HD PCM imho.
> It might be interesting to note, that Jared Sacks actually preferred Hugo over a well known and very popular,made in Canada, DAC,that is supposed to play DSD natively with his excellent  DSD 64 recording of Mahler's 9th, and other of his own recordings if I remember Ted's quote  correctly.
> Hugo is imho still one of the very best DACs out there imho. I use mine almost daily.
> But DAVE is even better.




Christer,

What are you comparing Hugo's DSD to?

In my case, I am comparing to PS Directstream, old Lampizator BIG5 and my current Lampizator GG. Wouldn't think fair comparison given the price differences. However the Hugo wasn't in anywhere in the same league as any of them with DSD. It definitely lost something. Also, if you look around, there is comments to that effect.

However, it looks like rob watts did significant changes to DSD path for Dave which hopefully made significant improvement. Hence I am itching to hear the leap.


----------



## Sonic77

Miska seems to have problems with Rob Watts.
 I wonder how the T+A DAC 8 measures against The Dave Dac?
 Numbers don't lie, and opinions are subjective, so have at boys.


----------



## Mython

sonic77 said:


> Miska seems to have problems with Rob Watts.
> I wonder how the T+A DAC 8 measures against The Dave Dac?
> Numbers don't lie, and opinions are subjective, so have at boys.


 
  
_*OR, *alternatively...* "Life is too short"*_, & *"Each to their own"* ?


----------



## Crashem

sonic77 said:


> Miska seems to have problems with Rob Watts.
> I wonder how the T+A DAC 8 measures against The Dave Dac?
> Numbers don't lie, and opinions are subjective, so have at boys.


 
  
 I doubt Miska has any real problems with Rob Watts.  But Rob Watts was definitely on the PCM side of the PCM vs DSD debate.  So it is easy fodder to find old quotes that show Rob Watts as a DSD non believer.  And what place does a non believer have saying they have created a better implementation of DSD?  My guess that is the attitude at work.
  
 As for your comment on measuring, numbers only occasionally lie.  But what the numbers actually say are subjective.  Remember a lot of what DAVE improves from a measurement perspective would be considered irrelevant or, even worse, inaudible by many "experts."  Obviously Rob Watts feels different.  Hence he is either ahead of the mainstream or out of touch (or maybe both ha), depending on who you ask.  That is obviously a subjective judgement.


----------



## Sonic77

We need a brawl for all


----------



## lovethatsound

romaz said:


> I heard this new DAC along with its accompanying headphone amp at the T+A room at CES in Las Vegas in January. It was connected to an HD800S. Because I had my HE1000 with me, they let me listen to my HE1000 with it also. Because this was my first time listening to the HD800S, I spent a fair amount of time there, more than I would have otherwise. They did have a good orchestral track available in addition to some standard studio vocal tracks. Prior to coming into this room, I had just spent a fair amount of time at the Chord room listening to the DAVE. I can assure you, this DAC is not in the league of the DAVE, not really even close.
> 
> Oversampling to DSD is not new. The Directstream and the Nagra HD both do it. The T+A is closer in presentation to the Directstream, which I know well because I used to own it. The Nagra is in a whole different league. It is smoother and laid back yet more resolving and just more engaging in its presentation compared with the drier presentation of the other two. Neither of these DACs have the holographic abilities of the DAVE, however.
> 
> ...


Maybe some of you guys need to read this again


----------



## Crashem

sonic77 said:


> We need a brawl for all




Haahaa can you imagine. Many DACs enter one dac leaves. Bunch of designers with their DACs out for blood. Rob would need to redesign the Dave to be longer and more to a point.


----------



## holeout

This just got in! Will be doing an extensive review for a local magazine in the upcoming month. Running in for a couple of weeks right now with Mass Kobo 394 and HEK and will be hooking this up to my reference 2 ch. system with Aurender W20 / Esoteric K01X / Gryphon / Magnepan 20.7 after testing it with various headphones. Stay tuned....


----------



## ecwl

holeout said:


> This just got in! Will be doing an extensive review for a local magazine in the upcoming month. Running in for a couple of weeks right now with Mass Kobo 394 and HEK and will be hooking this up to my reference 2 ch. system with Aurender W20 / Esoteric K01X / Gryphon / Magnepan 20.7 after testing it with various headphones. Stay tuned....


 

 Remember to take out your Gryphon Pandora preamplifier when testing out the Chord DAVE and use the power cable for the Pandora for the DAVE. Unless the power cables are the same. I think it'll be interesting for you.
  
 And I wonder if you can help rayleemw find a local dealer in Hong Kong for the Chord DAVE. Heck, invite the guy over...


----------



## JaZZ

holeout said:


> This just got in! Will be doing an extensive review for a local magazine in the upcoming month. Running in for a couple of weeks right now with Mass Kobo 394 and HEK and will be hooking this up to my reference 2 ch. system with Aurender W20 / Esoteric K01X / Gryphon / Magnepan 20.7 after testing it with various headphones. Stay tuned....


 
  
 Congrats! But I wonder: What has the Mass Kobo 394 to do with running in (DAVE or its headphone output?) or driving the HE1000?


----------



## Sonic77

crashem said:


> Haahaa can you imagine. Many DACs enter one dac leaves. Bunch of designers with their DACs out for blood. Rob would need to redesign the Dave to be longer and more to a point.


 






 It would go something like this


----------



## Mython

sonic77 said:


> crashem said:
> 
> 
> > Haahaa can you imagine. Many DACs enter one dac leaves. Bunch of designers with their DACs out for blood. Rob would need to redesign the Dave to be longer and more to a point.
> ...


 
  
   
 

 Since so many 'high-end audiophiles' think with their wallet first, their eyes second, their ears third, and their emotions a poor fourth, I think we all know that the way to silence all the nay-sayers would be for Rob & John to charge $200k for DAVE.
  
 Job done.
  
 Problem solved.
  
 (_*JOKE*_, John & Rob - thankyou for _not _playing the high-end price-gouging game, and please don't be tempted to! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## esimms86

rkt31 said:


> @ecwl, Hq player is a bit difficult to set. can you please give the link for the best sq setting in Hq player ? i want to compare through mojo , an unaltered CD quality stream via foobar and upsampled stream from Hq player !




Go to www.soundgalleries.com and then click on "Articles."


----------



## ecwl

esimms86 said:


> Go to www.soundgalleries.com and then click on "Articles."


 

 Except the article recommended a DSD setting which would be fine for a "native" DSD DAC but suboptimal for Chord Mojo according to the Computer Audiophile forum discussion. So we are back to what is the best PCM setting. According to the HQPlayer website (without downloading the program), there are
  
Resampling filters: 
8 linear phase
5 minimum phase
3 impulse optimal
2 closed form
  
Dithers and noise-shapers: 
4 dithers
4 noise shapers
  
 Moreover, each of the filters and noise-shapers have their own settings. Don't get me wrong, I strongly suspect HQPlayer is great. But mainly for the tweakers... It's almost like asking Rob Watts to let us run a computer program so that we can sync with the Chord DAVE and tweak the FPGA so that we can choose our own WTA algorithm and noise shaper.


----------



## REXNFX

holeout said:


> This just got in! Will be doing an extensive review for a local magazine in the upcoming month. Running in for a couple of weeks right now with Mass Kobo 394 and HEK and will be hooking this up to my reference 2 ch. system with Aurender W20 / Esoteric K01X / Gryphon / Magnepan 20.7 after testing it with various headphones. Stay tuned....


 
 Very nice! Particularly looking forward to the comparison v your turntable....


----------



## shuttlepod

holeout said:


> This just got in! Will be doing an extensive review for a local magazine in the upcoming month. Running in for a couple of weeks right now with Mass Kobo 394 and HEK and will be hooking this up to my reference 2 ch. system with Aurender W20 / Esoteric K01X / Gryphon / Magnepan 20.7 after testing it with various headphones. Stay tuned....


 
  
 I'm sure some folks would be interested in whether you find that the DAVE is sensitive to the Aurender W20. In other words, could you compare the DAVE with both the W20 and a stock computer and note what differences, if any, you find?


----------



## esimms86

ecwl said:


> Except the article recommended a DSD setting which would be fine for a "native" DSD DAC but suboptimal for Chord Mojo according to the Computer Audiophile forum discussion. So we are back to what is the best PCM setting. According to the HQPlayer website (without downloading the program), there are
> 
> Resampling filters:
> 
> ...




ecwl, I don't at all dispute what you've said, however, Miska has designed hqplayer to be used by people with a significantly higher than average amount of computer expertise and the link I cited is the only place I know of on the web that gives any kind of primer on using hqp.


----------



## holeout

ecwl said:


> Remember to take out your Gryphon Pandora preamplifier when testing out the Chord DAVE and use the power cable for the Pandora for the DAVE. Unless the power cables are the same. I think it'll be interesting for you.
> 
> And I wonder if you can help rayleemw find a local dealer in Hong Kong for the Chord DAVE. Heck, invite the guy over...


 
 Will definitely try Dave direct to the Grypon monoblocks,should be an interesting comparison, I use Vertere HB cables throughout my system and will be trying different power cables with Dave. Any fellow headfiers in HK interested in listening to the Dave, please PM me.
  


jazz said:


> Congrats! But I wonder: What has the Mass Kobo 394 to do with running in (DAVE or its headphone output?) or driving the HE1000?


 
 Nothing, just running in with different modes (DAC/digital pre/headphone) and outputs on Dave as it may be connected to my systems in various ways. 
  


shuttlepod said:


> I'm sure some folks would be interested in whether you find that the DAVE is sensitive to the Aurender W20. In other words, could you compare the DAVE with both the W20 and a stock computer and note what differences, if any, you find?


 
 Yes, comparing different sources (W20, Macbook, ipad pro, K01X, AK380 Cu) to the Dave with different input options (USB/optical/AES) is in the plan. 
  
 I have been using the Hugo for my portable setup since it first came out and right out from the box Dave bears a familiar sound signature, with better staging, resolution and micro details. Impressive!


----------



## Rob Watts

jazz said:


> I think I understand it. Perfect low-pass filtering means infinite Q means infinite ringing. Infinite Q means that just the resonance frequency itself is affected by the ringing, every frequency below is perfectly reproduced in the time domain (although that's impossible to measure). Any (real-world) low-pass filter with a finite Q factor will introduce transient corruption below the filter frequency to some degree. Right?
> 
> So DAVE approaches an infinite Q factor? I've seen measuring data indicating –0.04 dB at 20 kHz, which is pretty good.
> 
> However, in the real (non-DAVE) world avoiding pre-ringing may be beneficial, at least the corresponding filter 3 on my Corda Symphony sounded special to my ears (sometimes I considered it the best).


 
 I haven't thought of it that way - thinking in terms of Q - but it makes sense and is a good way of looking at it.
  
 But the first stage WTA filter is way better than 0.04dB - that's a symptom of other filters (notably the analogue ones). Looking at the results from the actual filter used in the FPGA (quantized coefficients) the frequency response is +0.000003 dB at 23 kHz (48 KHz sample rate). Its still within +/- 0.3 dB at 23.970 kHz - so that is only 30 Hz away from the critical FS/2 point.
  
 I do not think people appreciate how sophisticated Dave's DSP actually is; with 166 DSP cores running in parallel, it works out at a staggering 0.1 Tera instructions per second (TIPS) and that's just the WTA filtering - the further interpolation, filtering and noise shaping is getting on for another 0.1 TIPS. 
  
 But the point I am trying to make is that impulse response is not a good way of looking at filter performance, as we are talking about using an illegal non bandwidth limited signal. And people make the mistake that a small amount of ringing is a good thing and is evidence of good time domain performance - when it is not. When I talk about time domain performance I am talking about how well the filter reconstructs the timing of the original and you can have a low amount of ringing that has quite good timing, against a longer ringing filter that is actually worse timing. Of course, an infinite amount of ringing with an ideal sinc response will perfectly reproduce a bandwidth limited signal with no changes whatsoever - and this is what high end audio is supposed to be about. I can gain a much more accurate predictor of sound quality just looking at the total output using 0 dBFS random noise. In short talking about ringing is a red herring.
  
 Rob


----------



## analogmusic

The main effect I noticed with Hugo and Mojo (and hopefully Dave sometime soon if I can audition this in Dubai), is the free flow of music.
  
 There seems to be no stress of listening to music on Hugo and Mojo, it just flows, like analog recordings and live music.
  
 Whatever the engineering is, at the end of the day, a DAC has to perform musically, and I am very happy with musical performance of Hugo and Mojo.
  
 Other than Piano notes being very clear, I am also noticing that drums have that impact, I guess the starting and ending of notes is clear and not blurred anymore so much easier to hear and enjoy snare drums.


----------



## JaZZ

analogmusic said:


> The main effect I noticed with Hugo and Mojo (and hopefully Dave sometime soon if I can audition this in Dubai), is* the free flow of music.*
> 
> *There seems to be no stress of listening to music on Hugo and Mojo, it just flows, like analog recordings and live music.*
> 
> ...


 
  
 DAVE offers even much more of this very quality.


----------



## lovethatsound

jazz said:


> DAVE offers even much more of this very quality.


Total agreed with you jaZZ


----------



## Mython

jazz said:


> analogmusic said:
> 
> 
> > The main effect I noticed with Hugo and Mojo (and hopefully Dave sometime soon if I can audition this in Dubai), is* the free flow of music.*
> ...


 
  
  
 Yes, but DAVE requires much larger pockets, in _*more*_ ways than one!


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > I think I understand it. Perfect low-pass filtering means infinite Q means infinite ringing. Infinite Q means that just the resonance frequency itself is affected by the ringing, every frequency below is perfectly reproduced in the time domain (although that's impossible to measure). Any (real-world) low-pass filter with a finite Q factor will introduce transient corruption below the filter frequency to some degree. Right?
> ...


 
  
 That's impressive indeed. And I'm glad that the (filter) theory matches the sonic impression I get from DAVE – and vice-versa.
  
 Actually it's strange that FM radio never suffered from the sterile sound attributed to digital recordings, despite being dependent on a very similar steep low-pass filter for suppressing the pilot tones carrying the two stereo channels. And I'm rather sure that the FM technology produces a lot of modulation noise as well. I've always suspected the reason for the warmth of FM sound (as opposed to the coldness of – particularly early – digital recordings) might be that these components – filter resonance and modulation noise – are masked by a generally high level of harmonic distortion. Whereas the «clean» digital recordings make these shortcomings blatantly obvious.


----------



## JaZZ

mython said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > analogmusic said:
> ...


 
  
 Sad, but true! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Let's hope we won't become too elitist with our DAVEs – possibly the best digital source and headphone amp on the planet to date!


----------



## paulchiu

jazz said:


> Sad, but true!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think you and others here are very much regular guys.  Thanks for all the help.  My black and black with 6.7 inch tall chrome legged Dave is on order.  As for the best DAC, I will so looking forwards to running it alongside the Nagra HD DAC.


----------



## JaZZ

paulchiu said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Sad, but true!
> ...


 
  
 That will be an interesting comparison.


----------



## TheAttorney

That would indeed be an interesting comparison, but have I missed something paulchiu? Are you aiming to keep both Nagra and DAVE?


----------



## paulchiu

theattorney said:


> That would indeed be an interesting comparison, but have I missed something paulchiu? Are you aiming to keep both Nagra and DAVE?


 
  
 Yes sir, the Nagra has a rich tube sound, dreamy for female vocals.
 I think the Dave will sound more to my taste in rock and techno.
  
 Paul


----------



## Jawed

jazz said:


> Actually it's strange that FM radio never suffered from the sterile sound attributed to digital recordings, despite being dependent on a very similar steep low-pass filter for suppressing the pilot tones carrying the two stereo channels. And I'm rather sure that the FM technology produces a lot of modulation noise as well. I've always suspected the reason for the warmth of FM sound (as opposed to the coldness of – particularly early – digital recordings) might be that these components – filter resonance and modulation noise – are masked by a generally high level of harmonic distortion. Whereas the «clean» digital recordings make these shortcomings blatantly obvious.



This fascinating page puts a whole new perspective on UK FM:

BBC PCM and NICAM History



> During the 1960s engineers at the BBC carried out research into the application of digital methods to audio and video. Experimental systems were tried out and a number of BBC research reports were published showing progress. On the 14th of September 1972 the link from Broadcasting House to the Wrotham transmitter switched to the new BBC PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) system.


 



> Each PCM channel was based on sampling the input analogue audio waveform at 32k samples/sec and generated 13-bit LPCM (Linear PCM) sample values. The sampling was dithered to suppress quantisation effects. The input to each analogue-to-digital convertor (ADC) was low-pass filtered to reject audio frequencies above 15kHz.




NICAM: Near Instantaneously Companded Audio Multiplex:


> This produces a sort of ‘modulation noise’ which is typically around 55dB below the speech or music. The effect is low enough not to be particularly audible, but can be noticed. However extensive tests by the BBC showed that the audible impact of this was slight. Indeed, given how enthusiastic audio fans tend to be today about FM radio, four decades later, this judgement seems to be well justified by experience!






> And most people still think of FM radio as ‘analogue’...


----------



## TheAttorney

paulchiu said:


> Yes sir, the Nagra has a rich tube sound, dreamy for female vocals.
> I think the Dave will sound more to my taste in rock and techno.


 
  
 Wow, a different expensive DAC to be used for different music types. That is true dedication to the high end! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway, I think you'll find that DAVE is pretty damn fine on female vocals too.
 For the Nagra HD to earn its keep (at twice the price of DAVE), I would hope it would add something much more fundamental than a bit of tube warmth, but hopefully you'll let us know in due course.
  
 BTW, on an earlier topic, I now find that the Absolute Phase (or more accurately Absolute Polarity?) switch is the most used "button" on both Y and DAVE. Once I've latched on to the subtle-but-significant change it can make to most of my albums, my OCD tendencies mean that I now have to check this for each album I play. Which leads to my open question on DAVE's operation: Is there a way to _directly_ switch this option on either the main unit or on the remote control?  In either case, I find I need to press at least 2 buttons (one to highlight the option, and another to switch it).
  
 I really like DAVE's "Cyclops" display, but two enhancement requests would be to have a dedicated button on the main unit for Absolute Polarity and a second dedicated button for Standby (currently Standby is the only reason why I'm forced to use the remote control).


----------



## STR-1

yellowblue said:


> As Romaz namned earlier you can use the Sonic Orbiter SE with Roon. Works really well even for me. If you don´t mind to have an extra core-computer running that could be a good solution - as good sounding as Aurender etc. You can choose a good LPS (or Anker-battery) and good cables if you want to try out if that affects the sound.







lovethatsound said:


> Hi STR-1
> Have a look at the bluesound range,the bluesound vault 2 might be what your looking for,it's got a 2tb hard drive,it can rip cds,download hi res,and stream,you can do it all from your i pad,its fairly cheap, about £1000





yellowblue said:


> As Romaz namned earlier you can use the Sonic Orbiter SE with Roon. Works really well even for me. If you don´t mind to have an extra core-computer running that could be a good solution - as good sounding as Aurender etc. You can choose a good LPS (or Anker-battery) and good cables if you want to try out if that affects the sound.







ecwl said:


> Except you can't connect the Bluesound Vault 2 via USB to Chord DAVE. But then you can just use Toslink. I looked into this before because my friend who will inherit my QBD76HDSD already owns a Bluesound Vault 2. He was also going to inherit a Toslink cable from me but I'll have to give him a digital coaxial RCA-BNC because I end up using that Toslink cable to isolate my video system mostly from my audio system. For those who cared, I'm using the Toslink between the Oppo and the miniDSP. I'm amazed by the increased depth and smoothness and timbre I get from watching movies. Force Awakens Lightsaber fight scene had these subtle sounds coming from the lightsabers that I never heard before. I'm actually surprised Chord has not built an A/V processor based on Mojo/DAVE technology.




Thanks for the replies guys and sorry for the delay in acknowledging.


----------



## rkt31

any more comparisons of dave with other DACs or reviews of dave ?


----------



## bacon333

rkt31 said:


> any more comparisons of dave with other DACs or reviews of dave ?


 
  
 Project EvaD - Evaluation DAVE is almost complete.
  
 https://audiobacon.net/2016/04/15/chord-dave-review-project-evad-evaluation-dave/
  
 Nearly a month long process...I'm finishing up the last section. I still need to do some touching up but if you're interested in how it compares to the MSB Analog, Chord Hugo TT, Lumin S1, and Berkeley Alpha Reference it's worth a read (especially the "Raw Notes" for the Berkeley).


----------



## shuttlepod

Hey Mr. Bacon333--
  
 Very insightful and thorough review! Your hard work (if you can call it work) is appreciated. I am grateful for the comparison with the Berkeley, as I have wondered in my mind how it might stack up with the DAVE (realizing that your views are yours alone). I'll go back and read this more thoroughly when I have more time, but I like your detailed description of the various set-ups and think that the inclusion of your "raw notes" is a nice touch -- why haven't other folks thought of this? (Maybe they have and I've missed them.) 
  
 Totally agree with you on the importance of power. I didn't do my own "dirty" vs. "clean" power comparisons as I became convinced long ago that clean power makes a big difference and once Rob opined that he thought it would make a difference, that was enough for me to simply use my existing power setup (see profile for more detail). 
  
 Once again, bravo on your review and I look forward to the finished product.


----------



## shuttlepod

Bacon:
  
 With regard to the harsh treble glare you found with the DAVE, I would try listening to the DAVE with different headphones or speakers and/or different headphone cables. I did not find this to be the case with either my speaker system or with the HE1000 using a Purist Audio Design Impresa cable. Indeed, I found that the DAVE sounded smoother in the treble than other dacs and actually helped tame recordings that previously sounded harsh.


----------



## Kamil21

shuttlepod said:


> Bacon:
> 
> With regard to the harsh treble glare you found with the DAVE, I would try listening to the DAVE with different headphones or speakers and/or different headphone cables. I did not find this to be the case with either my speaker system or with the HE1000 using a Purist Audio Design Impresa cable. Indeed, I found that the DAVE sounded smoother in the treble than other dacs and actually helped tame recordings that previously sounded harsh.




Is the harshness only on vocals on multi track recordings? 

This could well be the choice of vocal microphone used in the studio as it seems that the harshness is only for some recordings. It would not be a surprise that many studios use the same range of microphones to record vocals.


----------



## JaZZ

bacon333 said:


> rkt31 said:
> 
> 
> > any more comparisons of dave with other DACs or reviews of dave ?
> ...


 
  
 An incredibly thorough review! I have one question (pardon my ignorance): What's a «digital power cable/cord»? Is there simply meant a power cord for a digital source?


----------



## shuttlepod

Bacon:
  
 A couple comments on your setups for evaluating the various dacs:
  
 I see that you used a cheap, non-audiophile USB cord with DAVE but used audiophile USB cords with the other dacs. I also see that you used a W4S Recovery (USB reclocker), as well as a linear power supply, for the Berkeley and Chord Hugo TT setups. You avoided using any USB "band aids" or LPS with the DAVE. Thus, you were taking Rob Watts at his word regarding source immunity by providing DAVE with a "dirty" USB signal from a "dirty" computer. All the more impressive that you generally found DAVE to be superior. It will be interesting to read your findings regarding source immunity when you publish these. 
  
 Perhaps more importantly, I see that you used the Simaudio Moon Neo 430HA headphone amp with the DAVE when comparing dacs, rather than DAVE's headphone out. I find this a little surprising, as I would guess that most DAVE users would be using DAVE's headphone out (and the TT's headphone out, for that matter). I suppose you wanted a level playing field? I don't know if you still have the Berkeley and DAVE in house, but I would be interested in a direct comparison of these dacs when using DAVE's headphone out. 
  
 We can extrapolate from your finding, however, in the headphone amp comparison part of your review, that DAVE's headphone out is superior to the 430HA. That finding strongly suggests that DAVE would have an even greater edge over the Berkeley when the DAVE's headphone out is used.


----------



## rgs9200m

Yep, I found the AQ Diamond usb cable made a huge difference on my TT (and even on my Hugo before this). It really gives more "rounded" images, more transparent tighter faster bass, and more liquid highs. I consider it a necessity.
 I also really like Shunyata power cords, like my old Shunyata Alpha Helix on my amp that I use with my TT.


----------



## t258jgn

Anyone using Uptone USB REGEN for the DAVE?


----------



## shuttlepod

As I reported in my earlier review of the DAVE (see page 150 of this thread), I was unable to detect any differences in sonic quality between an expensive USB cable with the Regen, a much cheaper and older audiophile USB cable, and Chord's own "made in China" generic USB cable.


----------



## rgs9200m

By the way, awesome dissertation-level piece you wrote Mr. Bacon. Thanks and look forward to anything else you contribute or post.


----------



## oscarnr

Hi to all. 
Do you know which is the average waiting time for DAVE? I ordered one around 6-7 weeks ago through my dealer in Spain and no news by now (I haven't got any approximate delivery date). Much longer waiting time than I expected...
Thank you for your great comments, reviews, etc. Hopefully it will be at home soon  and I can hear all by myself.

All the best 
Oscar


----------



## Rob Watts

I am doing an event in Singapore next Saturday, with presentations about Dave and Mojo, with plenty of time to talk about other things.
  

  
 Rob


----------



## yellowblue

Thank you Bacon for your very detailed review! Someone more using Shunyata power cables with the Dave? Maybe even the Shunyata Sigma digital? There are others who recommend the Shunyata analog power cables with their Dacs, such as the Anaconda. Would be interesting to read some comparisons.


----------



## rkt31

@bacon333, thanks a lot ! I have seen some very good reviews of furutech bulk power cables which can a very good affordable alternative to expensive readymade cables. even bulk interconnect cables of furutech are also very good . I changed the stock cable of benchmark ahb2 power with furutech power cable and the difference was a lot of air and headroom which was instantly apparent.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks to bacon333 for an interesting and extensive review of Dave. Thanks also to Jazz for posting.

Just thought I would mention that I played my (remastered) CD edition of Quadrophenia through Dave yesterday and found that it can serve as a remarkably effective test of any dac. 

Those familiar with this double album by the Who will know there is a fair amount of recording devoted to the sea and the rain. Imo Digital struggles pathetically when attempting to replicate these natural sounds authentically. ( tbh I had forgotten how much I hated the way digital handled such sounds.) 

I would say that anyone looking to audition Dave could do a lot worse than simply get a recording of the sea and compare to your existing dac. It will become immediately apparent why Bob Watts multi tap approach is superior in delivering fluent resolution. To my ears it is better even than testing via piano recordings.

As it turned out I had a ball listening to this album through Dave. Detail, resolution, papability and above all, dynamics were exceptional. It sounded modern through Dave. I hadn't realised how well the dynamics of this recording had been originally produced and preserved in the mastering. Way ahead of its time in this respect imo. Great stuff.


----------



## rkt31

a bit off topic. I tried ferrite cores on both analog ( headphone cord) and digital coaxial cable. while on analog cord the ferrite core clearly robbed the finer Treble details and music lost it charm but in digital cable the effect was cleaning the background without affecting the treble. still using two cores even on digital felt a bit too much and was affecting somehow the sound . this effect can't exactly be explained in words but it was a kind of modulation or something. what I found that using a single core on mojo side between fiiox3 and mojo gave the best result. my question is that using a ferrite core on a power cable would be a good idea or not ?


----------



## ecwl

I'd really like to thank Bacon's review so far as it inspired me to make more changes to my system.
 In the past, I have all my components except amplifier plugged into a Torus isolation transformer/power conditioner. As my system slimmed down, only the Chord DAVE and my computer (CAPS v3 Carbon) which is connected to an HDPlex Linear Power Supply are connected to the Torus. And I had to have the computer plugged into the Torus because if it is not, I find there was degradation to the sound with my previous DAC, probably because the previous DAC uses the computer's USB power so if there's more noise in the computer power supply, it'll get into the USB port into the old DAC.
  
 With my current setup, in an attempt to improve the sound from my video system, I had one component (miniDSP nanoDigi 2x8 B) plugged into the HDPlex and I noticed a sonic degradation when I was listening to stereo without the video system connected audio system. The only reason how that can happen is that the noise from the miniDSP is getting through the HDPlex, into the Torus back into the Chord DAVE to degrade the sound. So I abandoned that setup.
  
 But then after reading Bacon's review, I asked myself, could the noise from my computer and HDPlex Linear Power Supply but limiting the performance of the Chord DAVE. Since I found the Chord DAVE USB source insensitive, I simply removed the computer from the power setup on the audio side of my system and put it to the video side. That means, Chord DAVE is the only device going into the Torus and indeed, I got a slight improvement in sonic quality. And now, it doesn't matter whether I connect the HDPlex Linear Power Supply to the miniDSP device, the Chord DAVE sound is still the same for the audio system.
  
 The reason I decided to share this long-winded experiment and to thank Bacon is that as with all components, it takes time to understand to optimize them in the system. It surely helps that Rob Watts provides a lot of explanations for why things are the way they are. My current take on the Chord DAVE for optimal setup is the following:
 1) Unless you truly have a superbly clean RCA/BNC digital source, avoid using it and use Toslink and USB instead because even if the source is turned off, it'll probably be injecting some RF noise into the Chord DAVE and degrading its performance.
 2) Since Chord DAVE seems to perform better in an environment with better/cleaner power supply, if you have a computer or other digital devices that are connected to the Chord DAVE, you should try to have their power supplied from a circuit completely separate from the DAVE so that the power noise generated by the computer or switch-mode power supply or digital circuitry are as far away from the DAVE as possible. Your sources not getting the best power supply would not affect DAVE's performance because DAVE is source insensitive to Toslink or USB but by having your sources not polluting DAVE's power supply, you may and probably will be able to squeeze out even more performance out of the DAVE.


----------



## Beolab

bacon333 said:


> Project EvaD - Evaluation DAVE is almost complete.
> 
> https://audiobacon.net/2016/04/15/chord-dave-review-project-evad-evaluation-dave/
> 
> Nearly a month long process...I'm finishing up the last section. I still need to do some touching up but if you're interested in how it compares to the MSB Analog, Chord Hugo TT, Lumin S1, and Berkeley Alpha Reference it's worth a read (especially the "Raw Notes" for the Berkeley).






This is almost spooky that i got the the same test winning equipment as you have on test back home just for now in my test rig: 

-Black Chord DAVE
-Chord Mojo
-MSB Analog ( Secondary DAC )
-Abyss with standard JPS cable
-DHC Silver Comp4 Headphone Cable
-JPS Labs SC HP Headphone cable
-M o o n 6 0 0 i  Amp
-We lls Au dio Head-Trip
-Aurender W20
-Mac Book Pro running Roon
-Transparent Reference 5 XLR
-All sorts of AQ Diamond digital cables
-W4s Remedy
-Regen
(-BlueSound Node II)

The only big difference is the power products, here i have a Isotek Sirius power conditioner and AQ NRG 1000 DBS power cables.





I highly regard your in depth review, and for your time you have spend on this project.


----------



## yellowblue

After Bacons review of power cables with the Dave I loaned a Shunyata Citron Alpha digital as he used in his test. Before I had the same JPS cables that he didn´t like so much.
 The difference in my own test was quiet obvious. I never thought it would be so huge. The Shunyata cable has a much richer sound, the deeper mids sound more energetic and warm. The soundstage is a tad wider but has won a lot of depth. Everything is more fluid sounding. More bass! I hear all this improvements even without the P10. But it´s as always - you don´t think it can get much better until you hear something that you never thought was possible.
 I began to experiment with the tuning pads for my Ether C before I got the Shunyata because I found them a little thin sounding on the one hand and a little bright in the upper mids on the other hand. Now they just has the sound signature that I always wished they should have. With other words - I am keeping the Shunyata.


----------



## brightonjel

daveredref-iii said:


> Thanks to bacon333 for an interesting and extensive review of Dave. Thanks also to Jazz for posting.
> 
> Just thought I would mention that I played my (remastered) CD edition of Quadrophenia through Dave yesterday and found that it can serve as a remarkably effective test of any dac.
> 
> ...


 

 OT: Totally agree - not just the Who's best work, but an unsung rock classic that can still defeat all-comers.  I was living in Brighton at the time it came out, and almost made it as an extra when they showed up later to make the film.


----------



## rkt31

may sound a bit odd but I tried today my cheap redmi s1 with uapp to feed mojo . the USB cable was small. I put the phone in airplane mode . the sound was much fuller and had much better imaging than fiio as transport. I know people here taking about much expensive transports for dave but has anyone given a try to an Android device in airplane mode ? IMHO it can be a revelation too.


----------



## shuttlepod

daveredref-iii said:


> Just thought I would mention that I played my (remastered) CD edition of Quadrophenia through Dave yesterday and found that it can serve as a remarkably effective test of any dac.


 
  
 I'll have to compare the redbook version of Quadrophenia (1996 remix) with the vinyl reissue I bought last year. This is an album I listened to a lot in my teens. The vinyl reissue sounds damn good. I'd be surprised if any digital version could surpass it, but we'll see.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Shuttlepod
Vinyl will lose out on dynamics, I am pretty confident of that. Dave's handling of dynamics on that recording is exceptional.


----------



## bacon333

shuttlepod said:


> Hey Mr. Bacon333--
> 
> Very insightful and thorough review! Your hard work (if you can call it work) is appreciated. I am grateful for the comparison with the Berkeley, as I have wondered in my mind how it might stack up with the DAVE (realizing that your views are yours alone). I'll go back and read this more thoroughly when I have more time, but I like your detailed description of the various set-ups and think that the inclusion of your "raw notes" is a nice touch -- why haven't other folks thought of this? (Maybe they have and I've missed them.)
> 
> ...


 
 Thankfully I'm in-between jobs right now and had a bit of time haha. The Berkeley is amazing. If only it had that holographic touch...
  
 The final part of the review has been completed. Enjoy!
 https://audiobacon.net/2016/04/15/chord-dave-review-project-evad-evaluation-dave/5/


----------



## bacon333

shuttlepod said:


> Bacon:
> 
> With regard to the harsh treble glare you found with the DAVE, I would try listening to the DAVE with different headphones or speakers and/or different headphone cables. I did not find this to be the case with either my speaker system or with the HE1000 using a Purist Audio Design Impresa cable. Indeed, I found that the DAVE sounded smoother in the treble than other dacs and actually helped tame recordings that previously sounded harsh.


 
 Yeah, I'm thinking it could be the Abyss...I'll find out soon.


----------



## bacon333

kamil21 said:


> Is the harshness only on vocals on multi track recordings?
> 
> This could well be the choice of vocal microphone used in the studio as it seems that the harshness is only for some recordings. It would not be a surprise that many studios use the same range of microphones to record vocals.


 
 It sounds like it's a particular frequency being accentuated. It has this cringe-worthy metallic tinge. I also hear it with the Chord Hugo TT...but as mentioned, not with the Lumin or Berkeley.


----------



## bacon333

yellowblue said:


> Thank you Bacon for your very detailed review! Someone more using Shunyata power cables with the Dave? Maybe even the Shunyata Sigma digital? There are others who recommend the Shunyata analog power cables with their Dacs, such as the Anaconda. Would be interesting to read some comparisons.


 
 I've been thoroughly impressed with Shunyata's offerings. Their Alpha HC cable was the best power cable for the PS Audio P10. The best way to hear for yourself is to setup a borrow with Ethan at the Cable Company.


----------



## JaZZ

bacon333 said:


> kamil21 said:
> 
> 
> > Is the harshness only on vocals on multi track recordings?
> ...


 
  
 Does it sound like that?


----------



## bacon333

rkt31 said:


> @bacon333, thanks a lot ! I have seen some very good reviews of furutech bulk power cables which can a very good affordable alternative to expensive readymade cables. even bulk interconnect cables of furutech are also very good . I changed the stock cable of benchmark ahb2 power with furutech power cable and the difference was a lot of air and headroom which was instantly apparent.


 
 Yeah, huge believer in power cables now. I used to shrug them off as ridiculous...not anymore. I've heard the Furutech XLR Evolution II and they sounded great.


----------



## romaz

bacon333 said:


> Project EvaD - Evaluation DAVE is almost complete.
> 
> https://audiobacon.net/2016/04/15/chord-dave-review-project-evad-evaluation-dave/
> 
> Nearly a month long process...I




I want to thank Bacon for his in depth review, an ambitious and heroic effort that led to a truly enjoyable and enlightening read! Jay not only has a good ear but his consistently methodical approach makes his comments very credible and his review conveniently answered several questions for me. Jay and I share something in common, and it is both a blessing and a curse (maybe more curse) and that is we are both pathologically curious about things and we can't leave well enough alone but I think this is a curse probably shared by most audiophiles. If only I stopped listening to new things 10 DACs ago, I could be blissfully happy and also have a much fatter bank account...

Regarding the importance of power, I agree wholeheartedly. Some would argue that it's more important than the source because without power, your have nothing. Before the DAVE, I had invested more than $25,000 in my power infrastructure if you include the cost of my Audience line conditioner, Son of Q balanced power supply, Furutech GTX wall receptacles, numerous mains cables, aftermarket linear power supplies, audiophile fuses, Entreq Poseidon grounding box, Entreq grounding cables, etc., and while some things made a bigger difference than others, with my previous system, the cumulative impact of all of these things was quite large. While Jay probably has very dirty mains power to warrant a more robust power setup, with the DAVE and compared to my TotalDAC, I have been able to sell off most of my power gear including my expensive Audience line conditioner and Entreq grounding equipment. In my environment, I have found the DAVE, even with its switching power supply, to be much more immune to the gremlins in my power line than my previous gear. I have held onto my Son of Q balanced power supply, because it's the one piece of equipment that seems to make the biggest difference to both my digital and analog gear but also my audiophile mains cables, with my Challenger AE15 digital mains cable which feeds the DAVE being my most important one. Especially with my Son of Q, my system is now dead silent, even my subwoofer hum is gone, and nothing sounds harsh nor do I suffer from the variations in SQ that I used to notice during different times in the day. 

Regarding the DAVE's immunity to source jitter and source RF, I have been in accord with Rob's personal findings for USB and digital optical sources because that is what my own blind testing had revealed to me in my system. Not that all sources sounded identical during my blind testing but that the differences were not large enough to warrant spending large sums of money for one over the other. It was for this reason that I sold off my CAD CAT, Aurender and several purpose built PC music servers. But today, while attending AXPONA (Audio Expo of North America) in Chicago, I heard something new, something different that has left me curious about whether a source could perhaps sound considerably better with the DAVE.

Before today, all the music sources I have listened to with the DAVE have been through USB or optical. Even when I had the Aurender N10 around, I never bothered to test the AES/EBU connection mainly because I sold my high quality AES/EBU cables with my TotalDac. A few hours ago, I heard an Aurender N10 again but this time, I connected to my DAVE both with my $400 Curious USB cable (a cable I found to be superior to my TotalDac USB, AQ Diamond, Wireworld Platinum 7, Lightspeed USB and Synergistic Research USB SE) and also with a $4,200 Nordost Valhalla AES/EBU cable. This was the first time I heard my DAVE through the AES/EBU input and while I was expecting it to sound inferior based on Rob's findings, it made USB sound quite compressed in comparison. Without question, to the ears of all that were in the room, the N10 via AES/EBU to my DAVE sounded more open and more dynamic than USB which suggests either the USB port on this particular Aurender is faulty or AES/EBU with a really good cable could sound better than USB on the DAVE. Tomorrow, I will listen to this again with both an Aurender N10 and W20 but it has left me curious about this input which is supposedly very susceptible to noise.


----------



## rkt31

@romaz, great you got rid of your surplus gear due to Dave. after getting Nikon d800 I also got rid of my other camera bodies and many lenses and now I am so happy with less photo gear. if I could afford Dave , I will keep it as minimal as possible just a source ( which can be a small Android ) Dave and amp with speakers and all furutech cabling .


----------



## romaz

rkt31 said:


> @romaz, great you got rid of your surplus gear due to Dave. after getting Nikon d800 I also got rid of my other camera bodies and many lenses and now I am so happy with less photo gear. if I could afford Dave , I will keep it as minimal as possible just a source ( which can be a small Android ) Dave and amp with speakers and all furutech cabling .




I can relate to your photography analogy. My experience has been, unlike with previous DACs, that it doesn't take much to get really good sound from the DAVE but the DAVE can certainly be further refined.


----------



## romaz

AXPONA Day 1 - DAVE vs T+A DAC 8 DSD
  
 Much has been made about this DAC that upsamples to DSD512 on another forum.  I have made my comments on it before but I got the chance to directly A/B this DAC against the DAVE today using my HE-1000 + Silver Spore4.  It is a nice sounding DAC for $4k but my comments regarding this DAC against the DAVE stand.  It is closer in sound signature to the DirectStream that also upsamples to DSD but it is not in the same league as the Nagra HD which is much better and certainly not in the same league as the DAVE.  Using well recorded orchestral and jazz PCM and even native DSD, the DAVE was superior in every way.  Those who are saying this DAC sounds as good or better than the DAVE have probably not heard them side by side because there is no way I can imagine someone saying the T+A sounds better if they have compared them side by side.  In the words of the U.S. distributor:  "Well, your DAC should sound better, it's three times the cost."  That's true but that was never the point.


----------



## romaz

AXPONA Day 1 - DAVE vs Mytek Brooklyn + MQA playback
  
 My opinion on this is uncertain because I couldn't do a direct A/B against the DAVE, however, with the Mytek Brooklyn, you can toggle MQA on and off and easily hear its effect and with a certain 24/192 MQA orchestral recording that I listened to, with MQA on compared to MQA off, it sounded better but it didn't have the holographic "you are there" presentation of the DAVE.  Right now, there are only 2 DACs that have MQA decoders built in (the Mytek Brooklyn + Meridian).  Rob has indicated he has no plans to incorporate an MQA decoder in his DACs but I am wondering if it is even necessary.


----------



## romaz

AXPONA Day 1 - DAVE vs Ayre QB9 DSD and DAVE vs GSX Mk II

Over at the HeadAmp booth, Peter was kind enough to allow me to directly compare my DAVE against his Ayre QB9 DSD DAC and against Justin Wilson's GSX Mk II headphone amp. At Tyll's Big Sound 2015, the GSX Mk II was my favorite headphone amp for the HE-1000. Compared to the DAVE's headphone output, the GSX Mk II has more gain although the DAVE easily has plenty of drive for this headphone so this extra gain is of no relevance. Without question, the palette of colors presented through the DAVE is richer, fuller and more vivid.

Listening to the Stax SR009 paired with the BHSE and fed by the DAVE, the superior qualities of the DAVE compared to the Ayre were clearly evident to both Peter and myself. The SR009 sounded better than I have ever heard it (except maybe through Frank Cooter's 845 electrostatic amp that he built for Jude which was just otherworldly). When directly compared against the HE1000, their is a clarity with the Stax that the HE1000 will never match and for some types of acoustical music, the Stax will ways be better. If only electrostatics had better bass!


----------



## lojay

romaz said:


> AXPONA Day 1 - DAVE vs Ayre QB9 DSD and DAVE vs GSX Mk II
> 
> Over at the HeadAmp booth, Peter was kind enough to allow me to directly compare my DAVE against his Ayre QB9 DSD DAC and against Justin Wilson's GSX Mk II headphone amp. At Tyll's Big Sound 2015, the GSX Mk II was my favorite headphone amp for the HE-1000. Compared to the DAVE's headphone output, the GSX Mk II has more gain although the DAVE easily has plenty of drive for this headphone so this extra gain is of no relevance. Without question, the palette of colors presented through the DAVE is richer, fuller and more vivid.
> 
> Listening to the Stax SR009 paired with the BHSE and fed by the DAVE, the superior qualities of the DAVE compared to the Ayre were clearly evident to both Peter and myself. The SR009 sounded better than I have ever heard it (except maybe through Frank Cooter's 845 electrostatic amp that he built for Jude which was just otherworldly). When directly compared against the HE1000, their is a clarity with the Stax that the HE1000 will never match and for some types of acoustical music, the Stax will ways be better. If only electrostatics had better bass!


 
  
 Interesting stuff Roy. Did you find the depth or front-back layering of the SR009 improve with the DAVE (notwithstanding the show conditions)?
  
 I have placed an order for the DAVE and will be expecting it late April. My office rig will be as follows:
  
 Headphones: Stax SR009 / Hifiman HE1000 / Sennheiser HD800 (Anax 2.5 mod) 
 Amp: DIY T2 with Telefunken E88CC and Holland metal base EL34
 Source and DAC: Weiss INT204 DDC / desktop PC -> Chord DAVE / MSB Analog with custom Volent power supply / Schitt Yggdrasil 
 Power conditioning: Discrete 20A power lines -> Furutech GTX-D(R) receptacle -> Shunyata Triton V1 -> Shunyata Ztron Python (for DACs) / Shunyata Sigma Analog (for amps)
  
 Ideally, I would pare everything down to the source -> Chord DAVE -> HE1000 / SR009 via DIYT2.


----------



## TheAttorney

A lot of interesting information coming from bacon and romaz. It's hard to get definitive conclusions out of all this, and no reason why it necessarily should be easy. E.g. bacon thought his P10 power regenerator had a significant impact, whereas romaz has sold off _most _of his power conditioning components as being redundant.
  
 The strangest part for me was why the cross-feed setting should matter so much when comparing digital inputs. Personally, I found the cross-feed (and HF Filter)  settings to be very subtle and slightly perferred both to be left off (admittedly in quite short comparisons).
  
 To me, it seems like the term "YMMV" still applies to DAVE, just not necessarily in the same way, or to the same level, as it does to other DACs.
 As power supply considerations do seem to be important, I couldn't see in the HFN internal photo of DAVE that there was a fuse anywhere in it's power input section. So it's either well hidden or DAVE uses some more sophisticated form of power protection?


----------



## romaz

Yes, with the DAVE feeding the BHSE, there was wonderful layering of details and good depth with the Stax. My curiosity has been satisfied.


----------



## TheAttorney

romaz said:


> If only electrostatics had better bass!


 
 Two things to try, the first is free, the second costs a fortune:
  
 1. If your 009's are not already a loose fit, very carefully bend out the plastic arcs to get a looser fit (it's plastic so do so at your own risk). This will subtley increase bass (especially lowest bass). There is a tipping point were too loose and the bass starts getting flabby.
  
 2, Replace the BHSE tubes with vintage metal base. Apart from unbelievable clarity, the metal bases will give "balls" to the 009's. Maybe not to the same level as the best dynamics, but it closes the gap


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> Two things to try, the first is free, the second costs a fortune:
> 
> 1. If your 009's are not already a loose fit, very carefully bend out the plastic arcs to get a looser fit (it's plastic so do so at your own risk). This will subtley increase bass (especially lowest bass). There is a tipping point were too loose and the bass starts getting flabby.
> 
> 2, Replace the BHSE tunes with vintage metal base. Apart from unbelievable clarity, the metal bases will give "balls" to the 009's. Maybe not to the same level as the best dynamics, but it closes the gap




Thanks for the advice. I sold my electrostatic setup some time ago. Justin Wilson is designing a replacement for the BHSE that is supposed to improve things, especially in the lower octaves. Maybe it will incorporate some of your ideas.


----------



## Samuel Snoopy

Romaz, Interesting, it is out of my imagination that they allow you to compare their DAC with your Dave. I think it is impossible to do it here in HK. Thanks!


----------



## romaz

samuel snoopy said:


> Romaz, Interesting, it is out of my imagination that they allow you to compare their DAC with your Dave. I think it is impossible to do it here in HK. Thanks!




I know what you're saying, it requires a certain sensitivity and approach but I have found that if you are honest, respectful and also complimentary of their product, it goes a long way. The other side of the equation is that some of these folks are just as eager to hear the DAVE and are even confident their product is better. This was the case at the Devialet room. They were showcasing the limited edition (only 100 made worldwide) copper dual mono Devialet D900 ($37k) which has their integrated DAC and monobloc amps. It was being fed by an Aurender N10 and a $15k Clearaudio turntable and driving a pair of wonderful Magico S3s. Here is a photo and you will notice that my DAVE is at the bottom of this Stillpoints rack:



Anyway, the Devialet dealer and some of the Devialet brass were there from France and they all agreed to allow me to demo this for them after the show ended because they all wanted to hear the DAVE. This is when we established that the N10 sounded better via AES/EBU compared to USB with the DAVE and so we compared 3 tracks against the Devialet's DAC using the DAVE's AES/EBU input. Unfortunately, they had no large scale orchestral music available but they had a hi res PCM track from Jazz at the Pawnshop, a Ramsey Lewis piano track, and a female vocal studio track.

 In comparison, the Devialet DAC sounded drier where the DAVE sounded smoother and more fluid. The acoustical space, especially with Jazz at the Pawnshop was more readily appreciated. There was clearly some smearing on the piano with the Ramsey Lewis track on the Devialet. To my ears, there was no contest but I didn't feel it was polite to make a point of it. The 2 Devialet guys from Europe didn't say a word. The Devialet dealer was very complimentary of the DAVE but he said he preferred the sound of the Devialet DAC, something I predicted he would say given that the Devialet guys were there. To the credit of the Devialet, however, the monobloc amps were wonderfu and drove the Magicos beautifully. The Devialets are also a work of art and I would happily hang these special copper units on my wall for all to see (yes, Devialets are wall hangable). I would be happy to own a Devialet but the DAVE stays.


----------



## Samuel Snoopy

Romaz, interesting story; I like Devialet amp too, but they don't have pure amp product to connect Dave that I want.


----------



## Articnoise

romaz said:


> I know what you're saying, it requires a certain sensitivity and approach but I have found that if you are honest, respectful and also complimentary of their product, it goes a long way. The other side of the equation is that some of these folks are just as eager to hear the DAVE and are even confident their product is better. This was the case at the Devialet room. They were showcasing the limited edition (only 100 made worldwide) copper dual mono Devialet D900 ($37k) which has their integrated DAC and monobloc amps. It was being fed by an Aurender N10 and a $15k Clearaudio turntable and driving a pair of wonderful Magico S3s. Here is a photo and you will notice that my DAVE is at the bottom of this Stillpoints rack:


 
  

 I have listen to the Devialet D900 driving a pair of Magico S5 – It was okay, but sound kind of “hifi”. They then switched to use the phone in of the Devialet D900 and hooked up a SOTA Kronos turntable. They didn’t play the same records, nevertheless a totally different and IMO much better sound.


----------



## STR-1

Still learning how best to use my Dave (well actually a loan Dave until mine arrives) and I am wondering when the HF filter could/should be used and what the pros and cons are of using it. Grateful for any thoughts you guys with more technical understanding can offer. Thanks


----------



## Kamil21

romaz said:


> I know what you're saying, it requires a certain sensitivity and approach but I have found that if you are honest, respectful and also complimentary of their product, it goes a long way. The other side of the equation is that some of these folks are just as eager to hear the DAVE and are even confident their product is better. This was the case at the Devialet room. They were showcasing the limited edition (only 100 made worldwide) copper dual mono Devialet D900 ($37k) which has their integrated DAC and monobloc amps. It was being fed by an Aurender N10 and a $15k Clearaudio turntable and driving a pair of wonderful Magico S3s. Here is a photo and you will notice that my DAVE is at the bottom of this Stillpoints rack:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Doesn't the Devialet convert all analog input to digital? Thus inserting the Dave, into the Devialet amps you will simply layer the Dave with the Devialet's digital circuits? I would think that in this case the Devialet should in theory sound better.


----------



## lovethatsound

str-1 said:


> Still learning how best to use my Dave (well actually a loan Dave until mine arrives) and I am wondering when the HF filter could/should be used and what the pros and cons are of using it. Grateful for any thoughts you guys with more technical understanding can offer. Thanks


Hi STR-1
I think Rob answered this question early on,somewhere on this thread . I'm 100% sure he said he thinks it sounds better ON.I think originally it was for just for hi-res,but Rob said he was surprised that it sounded better with red book as well.


----------



## ecwl

romaz said:


> AXPONA Day 1 - DAVE vs T+A DAC 8 DSD
> 
> Much has been made about this DAC that upsamples to DSD512 on another forum.  I have made my comments on it before but I got the chance to directly A/B this DAC against the DAVE today using my HE-1000 + Silver Spore4.  It is a nice sounding DAC for $4k but my comments regarding this DAC against the DAVE stand.  It is closer in sound signature to the DirectStream that also upsamples to DSD but it is not in the same league as the Nagra HD which is much better and certainly not in the same league as the DAVE.  Using well recorded orchestral and jazz PCM and even native DSD, the DAVE was superior in every way.  Those who are saying this DAC sounds as good or better than the DAVE have probably not heard them side by side because there is no way I can imagine someone saying the T+A sounds better if they have compared them side by side.  In the words of the U.S. distributor:  "Well, your DAC should sound better, it's three times the cost."  That's true but that was never the point.


 
 Roy, I think the people who raved about T+A DAC8 over DAVE are not using it straight as a DAC or using T+A to internally upsample. They are using their desktop computer CPU & GPU to upsample music to DSD512 with the most sophisticated computationally intensive algorithms and then playing the DSD512 file/stream back on the T+A DAC8.


----------



## lovethatsound

rob watts said:


> The HF filter is a sharp cutoff filter set to 60 kHz. The intention was to bandwidth limit high sample rate recordings - DXD and 384k have huge amounts of noise shaper noise from the ADC. This noise will degrade SQ by increasing noise floor modulation as the out of band noise creates intermodulation distortion with the wanted audio signal in the analogue electronics.
> 
> Now it works very well, in using it makes it sound smoother and darker - exactly what you get from lower noise floor modulation. But the curious thing is that it also sounds better with 44.1 k - curious because the WTA filter typically has a stop band attenuation of 140 dB (worst case 120 dB). So out of band noise is very low with 44.1 k and I was not expecting a SQ change with the filter with CD. The filter is not something added, its just a different set of coefficients for the 16 FS to 256 FS WTA filter.
> 
> ...


Found it for you STR-1


----------



## STR-1

lovethatsound said:


> Found it for you STR-1



Thanks for that, you're a star. I've been trying the filter turned on today with my 16/44 rips (ALAC) and I think it does sound better but I had no feel for why that was. Cheers


----------



## bacon333

jazz said:


> Does it sound like that?


 
 Quite possibly...but hoping not.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> I want to thank Bacon for his in depth review, an ambitious and heroic effort that led to a truly enjoyable and enlightening read! Jay not only has a good ear but his consistently methodical approach makes his comments very credible and his review conveniently answered several questions for me. Jay and I share something in common, and it is both a blessing and a curse (maybe more curse) and that is we are both pathologically curious about things and we can't leave well enough alone but I think this is a curse probably shared by most audiophiles. If only I stopped listening to new things 10 DACs ago, I could be blissfully happy and also have a much fatter bank account...
> 
> Regarding the importance of power, I agree wholeheartedly. Some would argue that it's more important than the source because without power, your have nothing. Before the DAVE, I had invested more than $25,000 in my power infrastructure if you include the cost of my Audience line conditioner, Son of Q balanced power supply, Furutech GTX wall receptacles, numerous mains cables, aftermarket linear power supplies, audiophile fuses, Entreq Poseidon grounding box, Entreq grounding cables, etc., and while some things made a bigger difference than others, with my previous system, the cumulative impact of all of these things was quite large. While Jay probably has very dirty mains power to warrant a more robust power setup, with the DAVE and compared to my TotalDAC, I have been able to sell off most of my power gear including my expensive Audience line conditioner and Entreq grounding equipment. In my environment, I have found the DAVE, even with its switching power supply, to be much more immune to the gremlins in my power line than my previous gear. I have held onto my Son of Q balanced power supply, because it's the one piece of equipment that seems to make the biggest difference to both my digital and analog gear but also my audiophile mains cables, with my Challenger AE15 digital mains cable which feeds the DAVE being my most important one. Especially with my Son of Q, my system is now dead silent, even my subwoofer hum is gone, and nothing sounds harsh nor do I suffer from the variations in SQ that I used to notice during different times in the day.
> 
> ...




I agree with almost everything you are writing Roy, but after extensive testing with 4 different bit perfect sources i have discovered that the DAVE are not totally immune to the source. 

I have like you very sensitive hearing, but i find it to sound different with different sources, exactly like the difference btw the inputs on DAVE. 

Aurender W20 / USB 
Auralic Aries. / USB 
Macbook Pro BitPerfect and Roon / USB 
Iphone 5S / Ipad with CCK adapter / USB = 

Wider soundstage than the aries and different presentation in the perspective with little less clarity than Auralic Aries, but it sounds almost even with MacBook Pro using BitPerfect. 
The Aurender have the best sound overall if it is setup properly, and the Auralic got the thinnest but clearest sound presentation. 

So this is a is a difference, please do the test with one track and you'll see . 

PS i will test the AES with W20 and see what happens, maybe it can sound a bit less compressed than using USB if we are lucky. 

Have a great day!


----------



## bacon333

ecwl said:


> I'd really like to thank Bacon's review so far as it inspired me to make more changes to my system.
> In the past, I have all my components except amplifier plugged into a Torus isolation transformer/power conditioner. As my system slimmed down, only the Chord DAVE and my computer (CAPS v3 Carbon) which is connected to an HDPlex Linear Power Supply are connected to the Torus. And I had to have the computer plugged into the Torus because if it is not, I find there was degradation to the sound with my previous DAC, probably because the previous DAC uses the computer's USB power so if there's more noise in the computer power supply, it'll get into the USB port into the old DAC.
> 
> With my current setup, in an attempt to improve the sound from my video system, I had one component (miniDSP nanoDigi 2x8 B) plugged into the HDPlex and I noticed a sonic degradation when I was listening to stereo without the video system connected audio system. The only reason how that can happen is that the noise from the miniDSP is getting through the HDPlex, into the Torus back into the Chord DAVE to degrade the sound. So I abandoned that setup.
> ...


 
 Thank you for the compliments and I'm glad the review inspired change and experimentation in your own system.
  
 1) The BNC output of the Lumin S1 is superb and worked wonderfully with other DACs (MSB Analog, La Scala, etc). It's only with the DAVE/TT I found the BNC input to be inferior to the optical/USB.
 2) Completely agree. From my experience, the P10 did a fantastic job of isolation, even with headphone amps attached to the high-current ports. Some say the P10 sucks the dynamics and low-end out of the sound but after plenty of A/B'ing, it helped my setup enormously. Night & day.


----------



## bacon333

beolab said:


> This is almost spooky that i got the the same test winning equipment as you have on test back home just for now in my test rig:
> 
> -Black Chord DAVE
> -Chord Mojo
> ...


 
 Much appreciated Beolab! Great ears hear alike!  I'll be getting a DHC Complement 4 very soon.


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## bacon333

yellowblue said:


> After Bacons review of power cables with the Dave I loaned a Shunyata Citron Alpha digital as he used in his test. Before I had the same JPS cables that he didn´t like so much.
> The difference in my own test was quiet obvious. I never thought it would be so huge. The Shunyata cable has a much richer sound, the deeper mids sound more energetic and warm. The soundstage is a tad wider but has won a lot of depth. Everything is more fluid sounding. More bass! I hear all this improvements even without the P10. But it´s as always - you don´t think it can get much better until you hear something that you never thought was possible.
> I began to experiment with the tuning pads for my Ether C before I got the Shunyata because I found them a little thin sounding on the one hand and a little bright in the upper mids on the other hand. Now they just has the sound signature that I always wished they should have. With other words - I am keeping the Shunyata.


 
 Completely agree. The JPS didn't sound quite right but could be fun with some recordings. Still quite detailed and artificially energetic. The Shunyata, just lush and truthful. Personally, I believe the difference in price is worth it. I'm going to have to revisit the Shunyata vs Challenger AE15 in the upcoming months.


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## rgs9200m

Just curious Bacon (if you have experience in these) you consider the TT a champ in the under $10K DAC category. (And do others here feel that is true? And not necessarily the best, but up there with them.)


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## metalboss

Hope it’s not too much of an off topic to ask our vast community to compare* DAVE* with* Simaudio 780D* DAC (http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/951-moon-by-simaudio-evolution-780d-digital-to-analog-converter)


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## ecwl

metalboss said:


> Hope it’s not too much of an off topic to ask our vast community to compare* DAVE* with* Simaudio 780D* DAC (http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/951-moon-by-simaudio-evolution-780d-digital-to-analog-converter)


 
 So my local Simaudio dealer has the 780D hooked up to the 740P preamp and 860A amplifier with Dynaudio Excite X44. I was unable to do any comparisons so feel free to take my comments with a grain of salt. But I can say that, to me, all Sabre DACs has a slight harshness to them that the Chord DACs don't have. That harshness makes certain instruments sound brighter than real-life and affects the timbre of the instruments. Because all products are very high-performing nowadays (even cheaper products like the $350 Resonessence Herus), these subtle differences are often not immediately appreciated and you almost need specific tracks that you're super familiar with to hear the difference at first. But once identified, it's very clear that Chord DACs just produce piano, violin or guitar sounds more realistically with more accurate timbre. So while the 780D has lots of details, a super low noise floor, good dimensionality in the setup I heard, the slightly unnatural timbre and slightly off timing/transients are audible and not comparable to Chord DAVE.
  
 I see that you own Simaudio 430HA with a DAC and you also own the Mojo. The problem with Mojo is that if you're not connecting it via Toslink or to a cellphone with LTE off and preferably WiFi off, the injected RF noise from your source's USB/digital coaxial output is going to dramatically lower the performance of the Mojo and mask the advantage that the Mojo has over most Sabre DACs setup. If you get a chance, you should really try to compare the Mojo in its optimal setting (Toslink input) vs the Simaudio 430HA with its internal DAC driving a headphone that Mojo can handle. I think it's much easier to have someone point out what to listen for and then for you to listen to it.


----------



## metalboss

ecwl said:


> So my local Simaudio dealer has the 780D hooked up to the 740P preamp and 860A amplifier with Dynaudio Excite X44. I was unable to do any comparisons so feel free to take my comments with a grain of salt. But I can say that, to me, all Sabre DACs has a slight harshness to them that the Chord DACs don't have. That harshness makes certain instruments sound brighter than real-life and affects the timbre of the instruments. Because all products are very high-performing nowadays (even cheaper products like the $350 Resonessence Herus), these subtle differences are often not immediately appreciated and you almost need specific tracks that you're super familiar with to hear the difference at first. But once identified, it's very clear that Chord DACs just produce piano, violin or guitar sounds more realistically with more accurate timbre. So while the 780D has lots of details, a super low noise floor, good dimensionality in the setup I heard, the slightly unnatural timbre and slightly off timing/transients are audible and not comparable to Chord DAVE.
> 
> I see that you own Simaudio 430HA with a DAC and you also own the Mojo. The problem with Mojo is that if you're not connecting it via Toslink or to a cellphone with LTE off and preferably WiFi off, the injected RF noise from your source's USB/digital coaxial output is going to dramatically lower the performance of the Mojo and mask the advantage that the Mojo has over most Sabre DACs setup. If you get a chance, you should really try to compare the Mojo in its optimal setting (Toslink input) vs the Simaudio 430HA with its internal DAC driving a headphone that Mojo can handle. I think it's much easier to have someone point out what to listen for and then for you to listen to it.


 
 Thanks for the brief input man, appreciated...
  
 Anyone has more to share pls...


----------



## shuttlepod

Another question for you, Bacon, if you don't mind:
  
 I'm a little confused after reading your description of the effect of changing crossfeed settings on DAVE with the Lumin and laptop as sources. First, you state that, using the crossfeed 0 setting, you found the Lumin to be more transparent, more holographic, with a more quiet background. But you still found the laptop's USB feed to DAVE to be more natural and musical. Based on that description, I think I would opt for "natural and musical" (and save a lot of money by using a relatively inexpensive computer vs. a Lumin). 
  
 But then you found the following with the crossfeed set at 3: 
  
_However, with Crossfeed 3 enabled…the differences were subtle. Almost like the data from the optical and USB is shaped into the same output stream when Crossfeed 3 is activated. I don’t know for sure but this is what I’ve concluded from my listening (I’m sure Rob Watts could chime in). I don’t hear any immediate difference from optical or USB only if Crossfeed 3 is used. To be clear, there are differences, but they aren’t noticeable unlike Crossfeed 0._
  
_In Crossfeed 0, the USB just sounds more natural and musical but lacks a bit of depth. It still sounds like it as a deep soundstage until you compare it directly with the Lumin. On Crossfeed 3, the Lumin kills the USB. From a technical standpoint. The Lumin has more of the holographic sound but isn’t really accurate or faithful until Crossfeed 3 is activated. You almost get the best of both worlds in Crossfeed 3 with the Lumin S1._
  
 Here's where I'm confused. You first state that differences were "subtle" with crossfeed 3 and you did not hear any immediate difference between optical (Lumin) and USB (laptop). But you follow that up with "_On Crossfeed 3, the Lumin kills the USB."  _I'm confused. Is the Lumin much better than the laptop on crossfeed 3, or are the differences "subtle"? You seem to articulate completely opposing thoughts in these sentences. Am I missing something or are we just failing to communicate?
  
 I guess I'm also surprised, like The Attorney, that a crossfeed setting would make a significant difference with different sources. When I switched crossfeed settings in my own two-week audition of the DAVE, I found the differences to be very subtle (this was using a single source). Not sure why this would change with different sources. 
  
 Once again, Bacon, I appreciate all the work you've done here and find your evaluation to be very useful.


----------



## ecwl

Since shuttlepod brought this up, I'm going to add to this some more for Roy (Romaz) and Bacon. As you know, my recent discovery is that if I have something plugged into my BNC input of the DAVE, the RF/ground noise from that source always adversely affect the sonic output from DAVE (to varying degrees), even if I'm playing off USB or Toslink. I'm guessing when Roy and Bacon tested Chord DAVE, when they were comparing USB vs XLR, I presume the XLR and USB cables are both plugged in at the same time so that you can easily switch between the two inputs.
  
 But if my theory is correct, there in lies the problem. With that kind of setup, when you're listening to XLR, you're just listening to the XLR signal + possibly the noise pollution from the XLR. But when you're listening to USB, you're listening to the USB + the noise pollution from the XLR. Now how would that affect the sound, obviously, I'm not sure. But I think to genuinely confirm that XLR is superior to USB, you actually need to unplug the XLR cable when you're listening to USB. Otherwise, maybe the performance of the USB is degraded simply by the noise coming from the XLR.


----------



## shuttlepod

romaz said:


> Before today, all the music sources I have listened to with the DAVE have been through USB or optical. Even when I had the Aurender N10 around, I never bothered to test the AES/EBU connection mainly because I sold my high quality AES/EBU cables with my TotalDac. A few hours ago, I heard an Aurender N10 again but this time, I connected to my DAVE both with my $400 Curious USB cable (a cable I found to be superior to my TotalDac USB, AQ Diamond, Wireworld Platinum 7, Lightspeed USB and Synergistic Research USB SE) and also with a $4,200 Nordost Valhalla AES/EBU cable. This was the first time I heard my DAVE through the AES/EBU input and while I was expecting it to sound inferior based on Rob's findings, it made USB sound quite compressed in comparison. Without question, to the ears of all that were in the room, the N10 via AES/EBU to my DAVE sounded more open and more dynamic than USB which suggests either the USB port on this particular Aurender is faulty or AES/EBU with a really good cable could sound better than USB on the DAVE. Tomorrow, I will listen to this again with both an Aurender N10 and W20 but it has left me curious about this input which is supposedly very susceptible to noise.


 
  
 Hi Roy--
  
 You are really doing some yeoman work, inserting the DAVE into many different systems and comparisons and sharing your findings with us. It is much appreciated as we learn more about DAVE and other dacs. Perhaps your most interesting observation concerns the AES/EBU input of the DAVE. If you can duplicate this with a different Aurender (the W20) at today's show, then it obviously suggests that Rob's position that USB is the best input may not always be true. That would be pretty surprising. If that is the case, then it begs a number of other questions, one of which would be whether you need a very expensive source like an Aurender to achieve this feat or whether a fairly simple conversion device might do the trick. 
  
 With the Schiit Yggy, for example, there are people who use a Yellowtec PUC2 Lite to convert a USB signal to AES/EBU for around $500. See http://stereotimes.com/post/yellowtec-puc2-lite-usb-converter/. A device like this might sound inferior to the AES output of an Aurender for any number of reasons, but the price differential alone would demand a comparison. You sounded pretty confident in your statement that USB sounded "quite compressed" to the AES input (and you were corroborated by the other listeners). 
  
Looking forward to your further thoughts on this subject, Roy.


----------



## izzard1982

shuttlepod said:


> Hi Roy--
> 
> You are really doing some yeoman work, inserting the DAVE into many different systems and comparisons and sharing your findings with us. It is much appreciated as we learn more about DAVE and other dacs. Perhaps your most interesting observation concerns the AES/EBU input of the DAVE. If you can duplicate this with a different Aurender (the W20) at today's show, then it obviously suggests that Rob's position that USB is the best input may not always be true. That would be pretty surprising. If that is the case, then it begs a number of other questions, one of which would be whether you need a very expensive source like an Aurender to achieve this feat or whether a fairly simple conversion device might do the trick.
> 
> ...




I still have the Yellowtec which I was using with Yggy before getting DAVE, I did a brief comparison and didn't find it better than USB, I can retest it again in the next couple of days to see if I can find anything new.


----------



## shuttlepod

Much appreciated, izzard.


----------



## rkt31

can't say about Dave as I don't have it but I have found USB input to be better in mojo than coaxial by a good margin. but the difference is apparent after about an hour of playing . I think by then mojo fully warms up. sound through is lot more confident and punchy and less sibilance in vocals ( those recordings having bright vocals already ) may be it is due asynchronous data transfer .


----------



## romaz

articnoise said:


> I have listen to the Devialet D900 driving a pair of Magico S5 – It was okay, but sound kind of “hifi”. They then switched to use the phone in of the Devialet D900 and hooked up a SOTA Kronos turntable. They didn’t play the same records, nevertheless a totally different and IMO much better sound.




I'm not a Devialet guy so I can't really comment but I am a Magico guy and I very much enjoyed the S5 Mark II that I heard today driven by these tube monobloc monstrosities. I'm always left wondering when I hear something special what the DAVE would add to the mix but since they were using reel to reel, this was not one of those situations where I felt comfortable introducing them to DAVE.


----------



## romaz

kamil21 said:


> Doesn't the Devialet convert all analog input to digital? Thus inserting the Dave, into the Devialet amps you will simply layer the Dave with the Devialet's digital circuits? I would think that in this case the Devialet should in theory sound better.




Yes, you're absolutely right and I just learned this. Like I said, I'm not a Devialet guy and so this is foreign territory for me but I confirmed today that all incoming analog signals are converted by an internal ADC to digital before a Texas Instruments DAC chip converts to analog once again. The process is obviously transparent enough where it was easy to discern the difference between the DAVE, the turntable and the Aurender being fed directly to the internal DAC of the Devialet but to have to go through two D/A conversions makes little sense to me. As it turns out, the Devialet converts all incoming analog signals to 24/192. What I heard yesterday sounded very good but as I stated, they couldn't provide me any real challenging tracks to play. It is physically a very attractive system but probably not the best way to go if you will be using an outboard DAC like the DAVE.


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> A lot of interesting information coming from bacon and romaz. It's hard to get definitive conclusions out of all this, and no reason why it necessarily should be easy. E.g. bacon thought his P10 power regenerator had a significant impact, whereas romaz has sold off _most_ of his power conditioning components as being redundant.
> 
> The strangest part for me was why the cross-feed setting should matter so much when comparing digital inputs. Personally, I found the cross-feed (and HF Filter)  settings to be very subtle and slightly perferred both to be left off (admittedly in quite short comparisons).
> 
> ...




Well said. YMMV. We each live in different environments with varying qualities of power, listening rooms, ancillary equipment and of course, there is the matter of personal preference and so our differing choices probably reflects how we each choose to compensate for the shortcomings in our systems. With regard to settings on the DAVE, like you, I value the ability to switch polarity and I do it often. Unlike you, Crossfeed 3 is quite apparent compared to 0 and I greatly prefer it in all instances and so I never touch this setting.


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> Roy, I think the people who raved about T+A DAC8 over DAVE are not using it straight as a DAC or using T+A to internally upsample. They are using their desktop computer CPU & GPU to upsample music to DSD512 with the most sophisticated computationally intensive algorithms and then playing the DSD512 file/stream back on the T+A DAC8.




Ahh, ok, I get it now and it makes sense because what I heard was not anything special so it was hard to understand what all the fuss is about.


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> Since shuttlepod brought this up, I'm going to add to this some more for Roy (Romaz) and Bacon. As you know, my recent discovery is that if I have something plugged into my BNC input of the DAVE, the RF/ground noise from that source always adversely affect the sonic output from DAVE (to varying degrees), even if I'm playing off USB or Toslink. I'm guessing when Roy and Bacon tested Chord DAVE, when they were comparing USB vs XLR, I presume the XLR and USB cables are both plugged in at the same time so that you can easily switch between the two inputs.
> 
> But if my theory is correct, there in lies the problem. With that kind of setup, when you're listening to XLR, you're just listening to the XLR signal + possibly the noise pollution from the XLR. But when you're listening to USB, you're listening to the USB + the noise pollution from the XLR. Now how would that affect the sound, obviously, I'm not sure. But I think to genuinely confirm that XLR is superior to USB, you actually need to unplug the XLR cable when you're listening to USB. Otherwise, maybe the performance of the USB is degraded simply by the noise coming from the XLR.


 
 Interesting thought. I wondered about this when you first reported it but didn't know what to think of it.  I just returned home and while listening to USB, I plugged in an old cheap AES/EBU into the DAVE and heard no change in SQ.


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> Hi Roy--
> 
> You are really doing some yeoman work, inserting the DAVE into many different systems and comparisons and sharing your findings with us. It is much appreciated as we learn more about DAVE and other dacs. Perhaps your most interesting observation concerns the AES/EBU input of the DAVE. If you can duplicate this with a different Aurender (the W20) at today's show, then it obviously suggests that Rob's position that USB is the best input may not always be true. That would be pretty surprising. If that is the case, then it begs a number of other questions, one of which would be whether you need a very expensive source like an Aurender to achieve this feat or whether a fairly simple conversion device might do the trick.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, Jon.  I just returned home from Chicago and so it is late but I will report my findings tomorrow.  Beolab was correct, there are differences with the W20 over even the N10 but there is much more to it than just that.


----------



## ecwl

romaz said:


> Interesting thought. I wondered about this when you first reported it but didn't know what to think of it.  I just returned home and while listening to USB, I plugged in an old cheap AES/EBU into the DAVE and heard no change in SQ.




Hmmm... What's the source for AES/EBU? And is the source on to put out a signal to the DAVE because I presume you're still listening to USB through the SonicOrbiter. I'm guessing this is one of those YMMV situation. For me, with the BNC input, the source is miniDSP nanoDIGI B and it was powered by a stock switch-mode power supply and originally hooked up to my Oppo BDP-103 via coaxial. The audio degradation was obvious. When I switched the connection from coaxial to Toslink between the Oppo and miniDSP, the audio degradation was decreased but still clearly audible. Now, I have a linear power supply for the miniDSP and the audio degradation is fairly subtle so I would have to pay a lot of attention to pick out the difference but it's still there.


----------



## bacon333

rgs9200m said:


> Just curious Bacon (if you have experience in these) you consider the TT a champ in the under $10K DAC category. (And do others here feel that is true? And not necessarily the best, but up there with them.)


 
 Personally, I really like the TT, always have. Extremely detailed, still musical, but lacks a bit of warmth for a truly euphoric sound. For some studio recordings, it's actually a subtle difference between DAVE and TT (I think I wrote raw notes on some of them). I blind tested my girlfriend and she also couldn't tell the differences between a few tracks. Once we switched to higher-res live recordings, the differences were enormous and obvious. I think I could say safely, it's a champ under the $8k bracket 
  
 From the DACs I've heard, right under $10k before taxes/shipping...if I already have a decent streamer/music server, I think the MSB Analog w/power base (without Quad USB or upgraded power cord) is probably the better sounding DAC.


----------



## bacon333

shuttlepod said:


> Another question for you, Bacon, if you don't mind:
> 
> I'm a little confused after reading your description of the effect of changing crossfeed settings on DAVE with the Lumin and laptop as sources. First, you state that, using the crossfeed 0 setting, you found the Lumin to be more transparent, more holographic, with a more quiet background. But you still found the laptop's USB feed to DAVE to be more natural and musical. Based on that description, I think I would opt for "natural and musical" (and save a lot of money by using a relatively inexpensive computer vs. a Lumin).
> 
> ...


 
 Great question and I apologize for the ambiguity. I'll update the post to clarify.
  
 When I switch between Crossfeed 0 and 3 with just the Lumin, the holistic sonic differences were significant (Hopefully someone else with a Lumin S1 could confirm this). With the DAVE not so much. However, with Crossfeed 3, both the Lumin and the DAVE sounded more similar and I couldn't immediately tell the difference (like I did with Crossfeed 0)...but in the end, the Lumin still had more depth, tighter, and a quieter background. 
  
 I hope that clears it up!


----------



## shuttlepod

Ok, Bacon, thanks for taking the time to clarify that. I think it's interesting that some folks hear significant differences between different crossfeeds. I recognize that some of this may be due to the sources we are using. But some of it may be due to individual differences in our hearing and the sonic qualities that each of us zeroes in on when listening. For example, I put a high premium on tone (both timbre and the extent to which tone is more substantive or less substantive). Roy clearly has a very keen ear for depth, space, layering, and air. So too with Bacon, it would appear. That might explain, to some degree, why Roy and Bacon hear significant differences with different crossfeeds, while The Attorney and I have not. Just speculation.


----------



## rgs9200m

Thanks Bacon a lot for your answer on my TT question. Best to you again.


----------



## bacon333

shuttlepod said:


> Ok, Bacon, thanks for taking the time to clarify that. I think it's interesting that some folks hear significant differences between different crossfeeds. I recognize that some of this may be due to the sources we are using. But some of it may be due to individual differences in our hearing and the sonic qualities that each of us zeroes in on when listening. For example, I put a high premium on tone (both timbre and the extent to which tone is more substantive or less substantive). Roy clearly has a very keen ear for depth, space, layering, and air. So too with Bacon, it would appear. That might explain, to some degree, why Roy and Bacon hear significant differences with different crossfeeds, while The Attorney and I have not. Just speculation.


 
 Which headphones are you using again? 
  
 Roy was there when I swapped between the crossfeed settings on the DAVE and it didn't take more than 5 minutes for me to settle on crossfeed 3. I get a much more natural sound and a better sense of the space and air. It just sounds more "as-intended" to my ears. Not to mention, with the Abyss, crossfeed 0 actually comes off a bit harsh and artificial in the treble region (anyone else with Abyss + DAVE notice this? @Beolab). Switching back to 3 and I'm in a happy place.
  
 As you mentioned, I'm also thinking "significant differences" is correlated to sonic qualities that we zero in on as well. I think tone is superb on both but I preferred the more cohesive delivery of 3.


----------



## Beolab

bacon333 said:


> Which headphones are you using again?
> 
> Roy was there when I swapped between the crossfeed settings on the DAVE and it didn't take more than 5 minutes for me to settle on crossfeed 3. I get a much more natural sound and a better sense of the space and air. It just sounds more "as-intended" to my ears. Not to mention, with the Abyss, crossfeed 0 actually comes off a bit harsh and artificial in the treble region (anyone else with Abyss + DAVE notice this? @Beolab
> ). Switching back to 3 and I'm in a happy place.
> ...




Yes i do not use the crossfeed setting 1 or 2 at all, i toggle btw setting 0 (off) or 3, and i just find a slight more grain and a litte less scale of space in the top end in setting 3, so it is little more intimate if you like it like that. 

It is more a matter of taste and i have sometimes hard to distinguish what is really better, or if it just another presentation of the sound. It is a big question on how was it intended to sound from the mastering studio, so i test on my ATC SCM50 SL A Speakers as a "reference " or go to a classic concert to be really sure of how it should sound.


----------



## shuttlepod

bacon333 said:


> Which headphones are you using again?
> 
> Roy was there when I swapped between the crossfeed settings on the DAVE and it didn't take more than 5 minutes for me to settle on crossfeed 3. I get a much more natural sound and a better sense of the space and air. It just sounds more "as-intended" to my ears. Not to mention, with the Abyss, crossfeed 0 actually comes off a bit harsh and artificial in the treble region (anyone else with Abyss + DAVE notice this? @Beolab). Switching back to 3 and I'm in a happy place.
> 
> As you mentioned, I'm also thinking "significant differences" is correlated to sonic qualities that we zero in on as well. I think tone is superb on both but I preferred the more cohesive delivery of 3.


 

 I was using both an HE1000 (with upgraded cable) and an unmodified HD800 (with stock cable) when auditioning DAVE over a two-week period. Mostly, though, I was listening through my two-channel loudspeaker system. Most of my listening was with crossfeed 0 and I didn't really spend a lot of time switching back and forth. If I end up purchasing a DAVE, I will certainly play around with this some more.


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> Hmmm... What's the source for AES/EBU?


 
 Sorry, I misunderstood you.  I thought you were saying you were noticing a drop in SQ just by having a BNC cable plugged into the DAVE and not necessarily having it plugged into a source.  Right now, I don't have an AES/EBU source and so I just plugged in an AES/EBU cable into the DAVE but what you're saying makes more sense.  With my TotalDac, when a digital input wasn't being used, it was designed to be completely decoupled from ground and so this type of negative impact was not possible.  I don't know if the DAVE has been designed this way.


----------



## romaz

AXPONA with the DAVE
  
 While my DAVE has nowhere near the 150,000 miles that Rob's DAVE has logged, it is on its way, having logged more than 4,000 miles this weekend as it traveled from northern California to Chicago and back.  I found a nice padded backpack with 3 compartments that nicely fits my DAVE, HE-1000, Silver Spore4 and laptop perfectly and so I was able to make the trip without checking any bags.  Unfortunately, my DAVE was mistaken for a possible weapon of mass destruction by the TSA at each airport which resulted in delays and it nearly caused me to miss my flight on the way home from O'Hare airport.  What I will say is that the DAVE is a ready and willing travel companion and very capably handled the trip.  It even allowed me to enjoy the same music I enjoy listening to at home in my hotel room.
  

  
 The DAVE traveled with me everywhere and for the first time, I was able to hear it in some very high-end systems (>$200,000).  From a cold start (sometimes less than 5 minutes of warm up) and with none of the special isolation accoutrements I have at home, it willingly challenged anything that allowed itself to be challenged, both DACs and turntables, and in each instance and without exception, it acquitted itself very well.  If there is a finer source for the money, I have yet to hear it.  If there is a DAC that better embodies the DAVE's ability to portray that "you are there" sense of depth and scale while always remaining non-fatiguingly musical, I have yet to hear it.  As I plan in earnest to build my dream 2-channel system in the next 2 years (when my youngest son leaves for college), I have a much better sense of what I want and the DAVE will be at the center of it all. 
  
 As for my favorite rooms at AXPONA, here are a few that stood out (no particular order):
  
 1.  Magico 
  

  
 When the day comes, I am fairly certain I will be buying a pair of Magicos although exactly which pair is uncertain.  The new S5 Mark IIs were center stage and were every bit as good as I imagined.  Magico relied mostly on analog sources (turntable and reel to reel).  It's clear from the show that the "old guard" audiophiles remain wary of digital.  This was one room where the DAVE had no opportunity to present itself.
  
 2.  MSB Select II
  

  

  
 The MSB Select II has been spoken of frequently on the DAVE thread and I'm sure MSB is as tired of being compared to the DAVE in the same way that Chord is tired of being compared to something like the Schiit Yggy but the reality is that if you are going to claim to be the best at something then you have to be prepared for the incessant comparisons.  With that said, IMO, no one puts together a room at these shows better than MSB and the experience at AXPONA was every bit as good as the one at CES in Las Vegas in January.  First, they always choose nice intimate sized rooms and then select speakers well suited to the size of the room.  Where everyone else opens up their drapes so that listeners are forced to stare at the glare through the window, MSB draws their drapes and puts in comfortable mood lighting.  Instead of having their product harshly backlit by the sun through the window, MSB has tasteful spot lighting to illuminate their products.  Where most rooms (Chord included) are full of all kinds of gear (turntables, DACs, cable displays, several sets of speakers) that can be distracting, in the MSB room, the only thing you notice is their silver Select II DAC because everything else is a more muted color.  Most importantly, and I cannot state this enough, MSB actually played music that was challenging for DACs to portray well.  There was no "Spanish Harlem" by Rebecca Pidgeon that many rooms were playing.  Those of you who know this piece know that this track can be made to sound good on a Bose system.  How did it sound?  Regardless of the controversy of how MSB reports its measurements, this is a very very good DAC and deserves to be in any conversation of best DAC in the world (IMHO).  Is it worth the $130,000+ they are charging for a fully configured Select II?  I don't know but as it has been rumored that MSB sold out their first run of Select IIs even before they shipped a single unit,  this may have turned out to be a brilliant marketing strategy.  They may not have sold attracted as much attention if they sold this unit for $25,000.  Did I dare ask if I could compare my DAVE to the Select II?  No, I think that would have been in poor taste.
  
 3.  Wilson ALEXX
  



 This was the grandest room of the show and this large room held almost a hundred seats.  If there was a room that could convincingly present a large orchestra full scale, this was it.  As you can see, they chose to go with the DCS quad stack but the best sound came from the reel to reel.  The Transparent cabling alone listed for more than $100k.  
  
 4.  Vinnie Rossi LIO and Harbeth 40.2 monitors
  


  
  
 This room probably is in my top 2 favorite rooms at AXPONA.  For those who have not heard the Harbeth 40.2 monitors, which despite their large size can be used as near-field
 monitors even in a large room, they are supremely musical and for acoustical music (singer/songwriter, jazz, classical), they are very hard to beat (probably even better than Magicos).  If I don't get Magicos, I will probably get Harbeths (or something similar like Omegas).  Even if I get a pair of Magicos (which are better for large orchestral music and amplified music), I may still get a pair of Harbeths.  The midrange of these speakers are second to none, the bass is potent and no subwoofer is necessary (even with a 25 watt amplifier) and the coherence of all the drivers is simply seamless.  If there was a "you are there" presentation at AXPONA for acoustical music, this was it.  Vinnie was using his LIO, a modular design that can be configured with different options including a delta sigma DAC, phono preamp with tube linestage, headphone amp and 25 watt class AB mosfet amp.  I asked Vinnie if I could connect my DAVE and bypass his internal DAC and he graciously agreed but unfortunately, he failed to outfit this LIO with line inputs because he wasn't anticipating anyone bringing their own DAC along (lol).  
  
 5.  CHORD
  


  
 To be up front, having the Chord room as a favorite was not a given.  I was not a fan of their 2 channel setup at CES in January and if that was all I had to go by, I probably would not have bought a DAVE.  The Vienna Acoustics speakers they selected for CES I felt were ill-fitted for the cavernous suite they were in and the tuning could have been better.  At AXPONA, it was a different story.  While the MSB room was still the most inviting, ultimately one comes to AXPONA to hear good music and Jay Rein, Chord's US distributor did a very fine job.  Before I entered most rooms, if I was hearing something sound really good, I assumed it was coming from an analog source and in most cases, I was right.  Before I entered the Chord room (not realizing it was the Chord room), I heard a complex jazz piece playing that sounded so spectacularly good that I immediately assumed it must be coming from an analog source because with the exception of the MSB room, no one else had been playing complex and challenging music through their DACs (studio singer/songwriter was the norm).  Upon entering the room and seeing the DAVE on the rack, I still assumed vinyl was playing because the turntable above the DAVE was spinning.  Upon closer inspection, it became clear this masterful portrayal of a very complex piece was being brought to me courtesy of the DAVE.


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## isquirrel

In general I find AES to have more air and none as far as I can hear compression vs USB. Happy to report I have found IMHO a new king of USB cables, the Transparent Premium, it is reasonably priced at US $595 RRP for 1 metre, so I imagine you could buy it for a little less. 
  
 http://www.transparentcable.com/products/show_product.php?recID=91&catID=3&perfID=1&modCAT=1


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## isquirrel

romaz said:


> AXPONA with the DAVE
> 
> While my DAVE has nowhere near the 150,000 miles that Rob's DAVE has logged, it is on its way, having logged more than 4,000 miles this weekend as it traveled from northern California to Chicago and back.  I found a nice padded backpack with 3 compartments that nicely fits my DAVE, HE-1000, Silver Spore4 and laptop perfectly and so I was able to make the trip without checking any bags.  Unfortunately, my DAVE was mistaken for a possible weapon of mass destruction by the TSA at each airport which resulted in delays and it nearly caused me to miss my flight on the way home from O'Hare airport.  What I will say is that the DAVE is a ready and willing travel companion and very capably handled the trip.  It even allowed me to enjoy the same music I enjoy listening to at home in my hotel room.
> 
> ...


 

 What wonderful report and photos, thank you Roy !


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## isquirrel

What a wonderful report and photos, thank you Roy !


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## esimms86

I finally had a chance to spend a couple of hours with my BH/SR009 and Dave(now with about 150 hours on it). Bottom line, I'll be keeping my electrostatic setup. I have to say upfront that I'm a big fan of the sound of tubes(the reason why I sold my KGSSHV Carbon). The trade off is foregoing the superior bass of the Carbon (and the HE1000). In truth, if I didn't have the BH/SR009 I could easily live out my days with HE1000 plugged into Dave. The BH/SR009/Dave, however, is just otherworldly IMHO. The midrange is exceptional and the amount of detail is unmatched by any headphone setup I've ever experienced. My musical tastes, though varied, run preferentially towards listening to the human voice and acoustic instruments and this system puts me right there. Dave, of course, also excels in capturing the timing inherent in performances recorded with few to no overdubs and with and without close miking(though I prefer without). Likewise, the detail and timing in well recorded orchestral music is equally well captured by Dave so it's win win. I must admit that instrumental timbres are reproduced well with both the HE1000 and the Stax setup connected to Dave. In any event, I plan to revisit this issue when my DHC cable arrives.

Romaz, thanks for the excellent Axpona report. With Axpona and CES Vinnie Rossi is 2 for 2 for major kudos. Itappears that that the Harbeth 40.2's are a no brainier for showcasing audio equipment in a well set up room. It's amazing to envision the LIO's DAC synergizing so well in Vinnie's show system to the point where it doesn't become the weak link, especially when you consider the higher end DACs on display at Axpona. A lot of companies, Chord included, could take a page or two from Vinnie's book.

Digital Audio Veracity In Divinity! 

Esau

_[Mod Edit: Please do NOT make more than one post in a row -- use the edit button.]_


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## TheAttorney

esimms86 said:


> ...Bottom line, I'll be keeping my electrostatic setup..... The BH/SR009/Dave, however, is just otherworldly IMHO.... I must admit that instrumental timbres are reproduced well with both the HE1000 and the Stax setup connected to Dave. In any event, I plan to revisit this issue when my DHC cable arrives.


 
 I'm glad to see another impression closely matching my own experience with the DAVE/BHSE/009, so it's not just my imagination then )
 As I've been an electrostatics kinda guy for several years, and have finely honed onto their advantages (and possibly got used to their disadvantages), I'm therefore possibly more critical of any dynamics strengths/weaknesses than most. 
  
 However, I still like the idea of a simpler DAVE->Dynamics alternative for when I want to skip the ritual of firing up the main rig (I find the BHSE sounds OK after an hour, better after 2, and subtly on a  higher plain of magic after 4. But sometimes I don't want to wait 4 hours). So although I was severely disappointed with the HD800S, I feel that the HE-1000 may be more to my taste, and await your opinion on the posh cables when you get them - to see if you find the same big improvement that others have noted.
  
 To complete the picture, the LCD-4 is not as high a contender at the moment because of weight/comfort/reliability and the Abyss is out because I refuse to put anything on my head that looks like a medieval instrument of torture.


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## rgs9200m

esimms -- off topic but did you find the Harbeth 40.2 good for insight and detail? I sold my HL5s a few years ago because they seemed to miss and gloss over critical musical information to the point of being mid-fi to my ears and very unsatisfying for high end.
 I called them anti-analytical to the max. I am not familiar with how the 40s sound (although the reviews I read say you have to be careful to avoid overdone bass). Thanks.
 (I guess this should go in another thread somewhere so as not to clutter this one.)


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## esimms86

rgs9200m said:


> esimms -- off topic but did you find the Harbeth 40.2 good for insight and detail? I sold my HL5s a few years ago because they seemed to miss and gloss over critical musical information to the point of being mid-fi to my ears and very unsatisfying for high end.
> I called them anti-analytical to the max. I am not familiar with how the 40s sound (although the reviews I read say you have to be careful to avoid overdone bass). Thanks.
> (I guess this should go in another thread somewhere so as not to clutter this one.)




Rgs9200m, I'm sorry if I misled you. I haven't had a chance to hear the 40.2's, rather, I was commenting on the very positive accounts I've read in conjunction with reviews of the Vinnie Rossi displays at the most recent CES and Axpona shows.

Esau


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## rgs9200m

No problem Esau, thanks for that and I enjoy your posts and observations.


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## romaz

Aurender W20/USB vs Aurender N10/AES vs laptop/USB on the DAVE
  
 On day 2 of AXPONA, I had a chance to listen to an Aurender with my DAVE once again but this time, it was the more expensive Aurender W20.  The Aurender dealer (Essential Audio) was kind enough to shut down his room early (by about 3 pm and the show closed at 4pm) and he basically gave me his room to use for my testing and so these were not show conditions but a quiet room.  While the Aurender dealer vacated the room so he could look around at some of the other rooms, two people remained who I used as blind testers.  Both were knowledgeable audiophiles.  Duke LeJeune, owner of AudioKinesis and maker of the custom speakers that were being demonstrated in the room (which were wonderful, by the way) was one.  Melissa Owen, owner of Clarity Cable and maker of high end cables including a $1,200 USB cable she named the "Natural" was the other and her products were being demonstrated in the room also.  Melissa was kind enough to allow me to test my Curious USB cable against her much more expensive "Natural" USB cable.  Unfortunately, she did not have an AES/EBU cable on hand and so I could not perform this comparison.
  


  
 I recognized that these two individuals would probably have a bias towards Melissa's USB cable and the Aurender W20 because these two items were specifically being showcased in this room but I found a way to blind them from both the source (Aurender W20 vs laptop) and the cable (Curious vs Natural).  I selected the first 30 seconds of 3 tracks -- a Redbook, 24/192 PCM and a DSD128 file (live female vocal, small ensemble acoustical jazz, large orchestra).  While both Duke and Melissa were blinded, I was not because I was responsible for switching the source and the cables.  What I learned from my first round of blind testing with the DAVE is that because the DAVE can make everything sound good, if you wait too long (more than a minute), it becomes difficult to detect differences and so I was able to switch sources or switch cables within about 15 seconds.  It became much easier to detect differences this way.
  
 This is what we found and the opinions were unanimous:
  
 Aurender W20/USB vs laptop/USB:   The Aurender was better than my laptop in terms of "openness" and clarity and the difference was clearly heard by all and was unmistakable but the difference was not large (maybe 10% better).  Without question, the laptop sounded very good and we all agreed we could live with either although given the choice, we all preferred the W20.
  
 $400 Curious USB vs $1,200 Natural USB by Clarity Cable:  This surprised me but the Natural USB cable was noticeably better and again the difference was the soundstage seemed bigger and there was a bit more clarity.  The difference here was not as great, maybe 5-7%.
  
 With the laptop/Curious USB vs the W20/Natural USB, the difference was greater still, maybe 15% in favor of the W20/Natural USB.  
  
 Since the Aurender W20 sells for nearly $17,000 and the Natural USB cable sells for $1,200, is this improvement worth >$18k (or roughly 1.5x the price of the DAVE)?  I'm not sure this difference is worth it for me, especially since I'd have to give up Roon but it could be worth it for others, especially if you already own a W20.
  
 What about Aurender W20/Natural USB vs Aurender N10/Nordost AES?  While I was unable to do a direct A/B, I would have to say my impression of the N10/AES was significantly better than the W20/USB.  If I had to place a number, I would say the N10/AES represented maybe a 20% improvement with respect to a more "open" and a clearer sound.  If you have a DAVE and a W20 or N10 (or any source with AES output), I would suggest you try out AES on your DAVE.
  
 Whether this is an Aurender phenomenon where their AES implementation is really good while their USB implementation is substandard or whether AES as a standard has the potential to be superior to USB with the DAVE, I'm not sure I can say.  Do you need to spend $4,200 on an AES cable to get superior sound?  Again, I'm not sure.  I would encourage Beolab and Holeout to report on their findings.  I know with iSquirrel's testing with his W20, AES was clearly superior to USB on his Select II and so what I'm hearing is likely very real.
  
 I have requested to have the Aurender N10 shipped to me again along with a variety of AES cables but also that Natural USB cable and so I will perform further testing in the next couple of weeks and so I will report back...


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## rkt31

@romaz, using audioquest two jitterbug in the USB inputs of laptop improved the sound considerably. that the difference between the laptop and aurender can be further reduced !


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## rkt31

jitterbugs, with that .


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## romaz

Before you think you have to spend a lot of money for something like an Aurender N10 and an expensive AES cable to make your DAVE sound better, you don't.  I discovered something else at AXPONA and the improvement I am hearing with my DAVE is even greater compared to what I heard with the Aurender N10 on AES.  Even better, this upgrade will cost you about $300-$900 but I can assure you, the improvement is worthwhile.  In the same way that the N10 on AES resulted in a more open and clearer sound, this little upgrade does the same but to a greater degree!
  
 I have seen this little device advertised before and I filed it under "snake oil."  It just didn't make sense to me and it sounded like a scam.  Well, I decided to listen to the demo which involved playback from a modest CD player.  With and without this device, the difference was almost too good to be true and I kept thinking there must be some secret trick at play.  I also kept thinking that because the DAVE is different, it may be immune to the effects of this device.  I spoke at length with Rick Schultz, the owner of the company and inventor of this technology.  He, in fact, owns several patents for this technology and so you can get this technology only through his company.  There was very little sales pressure and he offered to have me take this device home to try in my system and if it made no significant difference, he even agreed to pay for return shipping.  With this kind of guarantee and based on what I heard at the demo, I paid him my money and installed this device last night.  I only had about 30 minutes of free time to listen but in that 30 minutes, I heard nothing.  Because he said it would take time, I took another listen this evening and I'm listening now as I write this and all I can say is "wow!"  This is the real deal and the difference is NOT subtle.  Not only does my music sound clearer and cleaner, the transitions are snappier and yet it all sounds natural with no etch or grain.  To say that I have never heard my DAVE sound this good would be an understatement.  The difference I am hearing is greater than what I heard with the Aurender N10 + Nordost AES cable.  This improvement is greater than what I am hearing with my Silver Spore4, Challenger AE15 digital mains cable or Son of Q balanced power supply.  This technology, IMHO, is so incredible I have asked Rick to send me his lineup for testing.  While some of his items can be expensive (>$20,000), they start at a reasonable $300.
  
 What is this technology?  This is what I took home with me and it's made by High Fidelity Cables:
  
  
  
 You connect one end to the RCA analog outputs of the DAVE and you connect your RCA interconnect cable to the other end.  If you want to go the extra mile, you can buy a 2nd pair (for another $300) and connect them to the amp side.  If you're ambitious and you have another $300 lying around, try this one also:
  

 It plugs into a spare receptacle on your power block, conditioner or wall receptacle and the difference will be at least as great based on what I heard at the show but don't take my word for it, if you don't notice a difference on your setup, you can return them for a full refund.  They are based on magnetic conduction technology and work differently than an Entreq grounding box, Shunyata Triton/Typhon or any other power conditioner.  There are quite a few reviews from reputable reviewers that I read through tonight and each review says the same thing, that this technology made the reviewer's system sound better than they had ever heard it before.  Here is a video that explains it:
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ez8EzAFQ-c
  
 If you want to try out a pair, PM me and I can provide you Rick's e-mail address.
  
 Btw, in case I now sound like a hired pitchman for this company, that's not the case


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## romaz

rkt31 said:


> @romaz, using audioquest two jitterbug in the USB inputs of laptop improved the sound considerably. that the difference between the laptop and aurender can be further reduced !


 
 I have a few here and will try them.


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## TheAttorney

Hi romaz, very interesting posts - yet again.
  
 From memory, your earlier posts I think said that you could hear no (or very little) differences between sources and digital cables into the DAVE (apologies if I remembered that wrong).
 But now you've found some examples where both sources and input cables do make a difference to the DAVE - whether that SQ difference is worth the price difference is a separate question.


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## esimms86

Romaz, thanks for the intriguing report on High Fidelity Cables. The RCA interconnect links, BTW, sell for 549 a pair at the HFC website. 

Of course, for those of us using Dave solely in a headphone based system the MC -0.5(shown in the 2nd picture) would be the ticket. And yes, the same discount is in effect for buying two.


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## Beolab

romaz said:


> Aurender W20/USB vs Aurender N10/AES vs laptop/USB on the DAVE
> 
> On day 2 of AXPONA, I had a chance to listen to an Aurender with my DAVE once again but this time, it was the more expensive Aurender W20.  The Aurender dealer (Essential Audio) was kind enough to shut down his room early (by about 3 pm and the show closed at 4pm) and he basically gave me his room to use for my testing and so these were not show conditions but a quiet room.  While the Aurender dealer vacated the room so he could look around at some of the other rooms, two people remained who I used as blind testers.  Both were knowledgeable audiophiles.  Duke LeJeune, owner of AudioKinesis and maker of the custom speakers that were being demonstrated in the room (which were wonderful, by the way) was one.  Melissa Owen, owner of Clarity Cable and maker of high end cables including a $1,200 USB cable she named the "Natural" was the other and her products were being demonstrated in the room also.  Melissa was kind enough to allow me to test my Curious USB cable against her much more expensive "Natural" USB cable.  Unfortunately, she did not have an AES/EBU cable on hand and so I could not perform this comparison.
> 
> ...




Great to hear that my ears are not outdated yet, the DAVE are not totally immune like i have discovered and stated in a perviously post. 

Yes i got the Aurender W20 and the DAVE, and have not have time to test AES yet in fact, but i will loan a Transparent AES and try as soon as possible. 

But what i can tell everyone is that the Aurender W20 with 2x AQ Diamond 0,75 m USB + Regen is a clear winner, very nice fluidness, 3D depht / rischness and sound as a great High End SACD player, but with more realness to the sound. 

Second place is my Mac Book Pro Retina SSD with Roon , Amarra , BitPerfect applications. 

Third place is the Auralic Aries that have a very high clarity to every tone, but are a little thin and little to bright overall and miss out a little in the bottom information.


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## Muataz

This thread is very interesting. I'm not an expert but I believe the difference @romaz heard has something related to the signal is not 100% pit-perfect from the laptop compare to Aurender.
 @romaz Do you think a device like the ifi-usb3.0 could feed the Dave perfectly from the laptop, as ifi claims some interesting features ?
 http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-iusb3-0/


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## shuttlepod

Roy--
  
 Very interesting findings, thank you for reporting them. I have a few reactions:
  
 1) Regarding sources, I think for the vast majority of us the choice between an Aurender W20 and a cheap laptop (or other relatively inexpensive source) would be pretty clear. A gain of 10% is not worth $17k. For me, the choice is even more clear, as Aurender is not Roon "ready" (at least yet). Roon is an essential part of my musical enjoyment.
  
 The more interesting question for me relates to the forthcoming Sonore microRendu that has generated great anticipation at computeraudiophile.com. This will be priced at $640, is Roon ready, and has software modes that are compatible with lots of other configurations. It remains to be seen how well it will compete with servers that are many multiples of its price tag, but the early reports from prototype users are certainly encouraging. The microRendu needs a very good power supply, but there will be plenty of options to choose from at a variety of price points. For me, the question is whether the microRendu would be a significant improvement on Sonore's Sonicorbiter. If I buy a DAVE, I will likely buy one of these two Sonore products. 
  
 2) I'm surprised that people heard a difference among USB cables, although 5-7% is not a big difference and also calls into question the price/performance ratio. 
  
 3) A 20% improvement with the AES input on an Aurender N10 raises a number of questions, as you pointed out. From a value standpoint, the pressing question is whether this type of performance gain could be replicated with a significantly less expensive cable and with a significantly less expensive source. As I pointed out in a previous post, there are various converters on the market that will take a USB signal and convert it to AES. One of the members of our community, izzard1982, said that he had one of these converters and would test it with an AES cable and his DAVE. Any findings, izzard? And we look forward to your observations, Roy, when using the AES output on an Aurender N10. 
  
 4) High Fidelity Cables has made a splash in certain high end circles in the last couple of years. I own a pair of their CT-1 Enhanced RCA interconnects and that is what I used to audition DAVE a few weeks ago. What I did not do was compare the HFC cables with my other interconnect, a WyWires Gold. 
  
 About two years ago I was in the market for cables and compared interconnects and speaker cables from Audience, WyWires, Auditorium 23, and High Fidelity Cables. Although I assumed, prior to auditioning the cables, that there would be synergy in a full loom of cables from a single company, that turned out not to be the case. The cable that made the single biggest difference in my system was a pair of speaker cables designed by my speaker designer, Lou Hinckley of Daedalus Audio, and manufactured for him by WyWires. This makes more sense when you realize that the speaker cables are designed to work with, and very closely match, the internal wiring in my Daedalus Athena speakers. 
  
 I did find, however, that the High Fidelity Cables interconnects sounded fantastic. I ultimately decided to buy the CT-1 Enhanced interconnect from HFC and a WyWires Gold, which performed on a similar level but gave me a different flavor. I tend to use the WyWires between my phono stage and amplifier, and the HFC cable between dac and amplifier. As you ascend the HFC cable line, performance is said to increase, but at increasingly painful prices. 
  
 But I am very tempted to try the MC - 0.5 Magnetic Wave Guide (where does he come up with these names?). This is the little device you plug into an unused outlet. With the ability to return the device after auditioning, it seems like a no-brainer. 
  
 Roy, if you will be auditioning various cables from HFC, I wouldn't be surprised if you end up purchasing a pair -- the magnetic adapters you are so impressed with are only supposed to give you a "taste" of what the cables are capable of. At any rate, I'll be interested in your observations.


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## lovethatsound

Hi Guys 
Some very interesting reading on here lately.Does any one on here use stillpoints with there Dave?if so,what do you think of them.how many do you use with the Dave?


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## shuttlepod

lovethatsound said:


> Hi Guys
> Some very interesting reading on here lately.Does any one on here use stillpoints with there Dave?if so,what do you think of them.how many do you use with the Dave?


 

 I used three Stillpoints Ultra Minis with DAVE during my two-week audition, sitting on an IKEA bamboo cutting board, which itself sat on a Finite Elemente rack with Cerabase footers. I did not do a comparison with and without Stillpoints. But I have found Stillpoints to be effective under dacs (though I find them to be even more effective under speakers, power conditioners, and amps). I am currently auditioning a Schiit Yggy and started out without Stillpoints. After a few days, I inserted the Stillpoints/IKEA combo, and there was immediate better overall focus. 
  
 IMO, Stillpoints are extremely effective and well worth their price (I spent $2k on 8 Stillpoints under my $12k speakers -- absolutely worth it). 
  
 According to Rob, the DAVE should benefit from isolation tweaks.


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## izzard1982

shuttlepod said:


> Roy--
> 
> Very interesting findings, thank you for reporting them. I have a few reactions:
> 
> ...


 
 Hi shuttlepod,sorry for the delay. I did the comparison between direct USB from laptop and Yellowtec PUC2 to AES connection as well as Regen (Beolab mentioned he used it in his system with DAVE so I wanted to see if I can find something new) earlier today, and the conclusion is this, direct USB connection is better than the other two options which in both cases, at the beginning I thought they sounded smoother and more nature, but after a while, I realized that comparing to USB, they both sounded veiled, the space between notes were not as clear (especially when playing some piano tracks). And the overall sound just appeared to be loose and less real where USB sounded dense and more real.
  
 Keep in mind that the Yellowtec PUC2 is a $470 USB interface and the AES cable I used was DH Labs D-110 which costs $99, so my finding doesn't mean that the AES input is not good, it's very likely that if connected to the Aurrender and the megabucks Nordost cable Romaz mentioned, it can beat USB easily. Although it's another thing if you think the price differences are justified.


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## romaz

theattorney said:


> Hi romaz, very interesting posts - yet again.
> 
> From memory, your earlier posts I think said that you could hear no (or very little) differences between sources and digital cables into the DAVE (apologies if I remembered that wrong).
> But now you've found some examples where both sources and input cables do make a difference to the DAVE - whether that SQ difference is worth the price difference is a separate question.


 
 During my group's initial round of blind testing some months ago, what I posted was that when sighted, some of us (myself included) believed that the Aurender N10 layered details a bit better but once we were blinded, neither of us could really state a preference for one source over another.  In other words, they all sounded very good.  As I reviewed my methodology during that round of testing, one of the things that could have been performed better was the time interval in between testing one source over another.  Because of how my equipment was set up, it took more than a minute (sometimes several minutes) before I could switch sources and because the DAVE can make all sources sound very good, with the amount of time elapsed, all that each of us could say was that each presentation that we heard was outstanding and it was difficult to discern any real difference.
  
 During this more recent round of testing with the Aurender vs a basic laptop, I was able to switch sources much more quickly (about 15 seconds) and I found that it was much easier to discern even small differences, especially if we locked on to a certain point in a track.  
  
 Of interest, upon arriving home and reverting back to my standard configuration of Sonicorbiter SE on USB, at no time am I feeling shortchanged or less than fully engaged in my music.


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## romaz

muataz said:


> This thread is very interesting. I'm not an expert but I believe the difference @romaz heard has something related to the signal is not 100% pit-perfect from the laptop compare to Aurender.
> @romaz Do you think a device like the ifi-usb3.0 could feed the Dave perfectly from the laptop, as ifi claims some interesting features ?
> http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-iusb3-0/


 
 This has been Rob's theory as well, that 2 sources that sound different are probably not bit perfect.  With Roon, it's easy to tell when the stream is bitperfect or not.  With the Aurender, it's supposed to be bit perfect but there's no way to know for sure.  
  
 With the Aurender on AES vs USB, since we're dealing with the same source, obviously, the difference that is being heard is due to the connection.  Rob has mentioned that with AES, the quality of the cable used will make much more of a difference compared to USB.
  
 I have looked at the ifi product that you allude to but I have no experience with it.  If you decide to try it out and notice an improvement, please report.


----------



## shuttlepod

izzard1982 said:


> Hi shuttlepod,sorry for the delay. I did the comparison between direct USB from laptop and Yellowtec PUC2 to AES connection as well as Regen (Beolab mentioned he used it in his system with DAVE so I wanted to see if I can find something new) earlier today, and the conclusion is this, direct USB connection is better than the other two options which in both cases, at the beginning I thought they sounded smoother and more nature, but after a while, I realized that comparing to USB, they both sounded veiled, the space between notes were not as clear (especially when playing some piano tracks). And the overall sound just appeared to be loose and less real where USB sounded dense and more real.
> 
> Keep in mind that the Yellowtec PUC2 is a $470 USB interface and the AES cable I used was DH Labs D-110 which costs $99, so my finding doesn't mean that the AES input is not good, it's very likely that if connected to the Aurrender and the megabucks Nordost cable Romaz mentioned, it can beat USB easily. Although it's another thing if you think the price differences are justified.


 

 Hey izzard--
  
 No apologies required -- thank you for doing the comparison! Your findings, combined with Roy's statement that Rob believes that the quality of the AES cable will make a big difference and the fact we are talking about a $470 converter vs. an $8k server, leads me to believe that USB may still be the best choice for those of us who don't want to spend megabucks on a server and AES cable. But we're talking a very small sample size here, so others may provide useful info in the future.


----------



## izzard1982

shuttlepod said:


> Hey izzard--
> 
> No apologies required -- thank you for doing the comparison! Your findings, combined with Roy's statement that Rob believes that the quality of the AES cable will make a big difference and the fact we are talking about a $470 converter vs. an $8k server, leads me to believe that USB may still be the best choice for those of us who don't want to spend megabucks on a server and AES cable. But we're talking a very small sample size here, so others may provide useful info in the future.


 
 Also AES only supports up to 192k sample rate so if decided to go that way then all the DXD and DSD are out of the window.
  
 One more thing about USB cable, I can definitely hear differences between my Audience AU24SE USB cable and the stock cable that came with DAVE and it's quite obvious. The Audience cable I'm using is a dual end setup which signal and power are completely separate and I connect the power leg to an external TeddyUSB PSU so it doesn't draw the dirty power from computer, I'm not sure how much this contribute to the differences I heard as DAVE's USB is galvanically isolated.


----------



## yellowblue

Roy, you are writing about differences between laptop and Aurender. What about the Sonicorbiter SE? When I changed from laptop to Sonicorbiter SE (with LPS and good cables and Roon) I got a slight improvement (let´s say 5-10%). But it´s really not easy to hear teh difference. Yesterday I thought I could here an improvement after updating to Roon 1.2. 
 After all we have to ask ourselves if the differences we hear always mean that the sound turns better. The only thing that maybe will be intresting for me (and worth the price) is the upcoming Rendu.


----------



## shuttlepod

izzard1982 said:


> Also AES only supports up to 192k sample rate so if decided to go that way then all the DXD and DSD are out of the window.
> 
> One more thing about USB cable, I can definitely hear differences between my Audience AU24SE USB cable and the stock cable that came with DAVE and it's quite obvious. The Audience cable I'm using is a dual end setup which signal and power are completely separate and I connect the power leg to an external TeddyUSB PSU so it doesn't draw the dirty power from computer, I'm not sure how much this contribute to the differences I heard as DAVE's USB is galvanically isolated.


 

 Very interesting finding regarding the Audience USB cable, which I also own (and found to be excellent with my MacBook Pro and Ayre QB-9 DSD). I was unable to hear differences between this cable, a much older and cheaper Transparent cable, and DAVE's stock cable. But I do not have the dual-ended version of the Audience cable, and you have chosen to power the "power" leg of the cable with an external LPS. This suggests that to me that a device like the Sonore microRendu might have some positive effect in my system by reducing overall electrical noise. But it does run contrary to Rob's statements regarding galvanic isolation of DAVE's USB input and the immunity of DAVE to USB cable variations.


----------



## izzard1982

shuttlepod said:


> Very interesting finding regarding the Audience USB cable, which I also own (and found to be excellent with my MacBook Pro and Ayre QB-9 DSD). I was unable to hear differences between this cable, a much older and cheaper Transparent cable, the DAVE's stock cable. But I do not have the dual-ended version of the Audience cable, and you have chosen to power the "power" leg of the cable with an external LPS. This suggests that to me that a device like the Sonore microRendu might have some positive effect in my system by reducing overall electrical noise. But it does run contrary to Rob's statements regarding galvanic isolation of DAVE's USB input and the immunity of DAVE to USB cable variations.


 
 Seems like more testing for me  
  
 I will do some more testing on the Audience with and without external PSU, and also compare it to the Cardas Clear USB cable and the stock USB cable and report back my findings.


----------



## paul79

Is it a bit perfect issue with the different digital sources or perhaps RFI creeping in with certain digital sources/cables? Could also be noise from these components fed back into the AC causing a "system issue". Thoughts?


----------



## shuttlepod

izzard1982 said:


> Seems like more testing for me
> 
> I will do some more testing on the Audience with and without external PSU, and also compare it to the Cardas Clear USB cable and the stock USB cable and report back my findings.


 

 Excellent, izzard. If the sound changes with different cables, it would be great if you could describe what you hear in as much detail as possible (as opposed to:  "X cable sounds better"). Thanks!


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> Roy--
> 
> Very interesting findings, thank you for reporting them. I have a few reactions:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Jon, thanks for sharing your experience with the Hi Fidelity cables.  Most tweaks are system dependent but I have to say that I am just floored by what these adapters are doing.  As you've stated, his technology can get painfully expensive really quickly.
  
 I had a conversation with Rick Schultz yesterday and he shared with me that the San Francisco Audiophile Society had a DAC shootout recently and as part of the shootout, his products were also utilized and compared and while I have yet to read the transcripts from this shootout, according to Rick, the consensus was his magnetic gear (both power and interconnects) made a larger impact on SQ than going from one DAC to another although it is unclear specifically which DACs were tested.  I am generally skeptical of such claims but based on what I am hearing with these simple adapters, I'm inclined to believe it could be true.
  
 According to Rick, his power gear is more likely to have a greater impact because "more electrons are involved in AC power than in an audio signal" and that is what his magnetic technology is designed to impact and so his MC-0.5 may provide the best bang for the buck.  He is also trying to develop magnetic adapters for headphone cables and so of course, I volunteered for beta testing duties.
  
 As I am expecting an N10 to arrive for further testing, Rick has also agreed to send me his new Ultimate Reference AES/EBU cable based on the same magnetic technology (MSRP $10,000).  Not that I would ever spend $10k for a cable but if this cable along with the N10 results in the best possible sound my DAVE can produce, then I can better assess the delta between what is possible and what is practical.  I'm hoping the delta won't be that large.


----------



## shuttlepod

Given how good DAVE sounded with my el cheapo USB cable from my laptop, I'm wondering how much better the music can get?? Thanks for exploring these frontiers.


----------



## romaz

izzard1982 said:


> Also AES only supports up to 192k sample rate so if decided to go that way then all the DXD and DSD are out of the window.
> 
> One more thing about USB cable, I can definitely hear differences between my Audience AU24SE USB cable and the stock cable that came with DAVE and it's quite obvious. The Audience cable I'm using is a dual end setup which signal and power are completely separate and I connect the power leg to an external TeddyUSB PSU so it doesn't draw the dirty power from computer, I'm not sure how much this contribute to the differences I heard as DAVE's USB is galvanically isolated.


 
 Good point on the limitations of AES and I am aware of this.
  
 I do have an Audience AU24SE USB cable coming in for comparison also.  I am a big fan of Audience products.


----------



## romaz

yellowblue said:


> Roy, you are writing about differences between laptop and Aurender. What about the Sonicorbiter SE? When I changed from laptop to Sonicorbiter SE (with LPS and good cables and Roon) I got a slight improvement (let´s say 5-10%). But it´s really not easy to hear teh difference. Yesterday I thought I could here an improvement after updating to Roon 1.2.
> After all we have to ask ourselves if the differences we hear always mean that the sound turns better. The only thing that maybe will be intresting for me (and worth the price) is the upcoming Rendu.


 
 I agree with what you're saying.  Different isn't always better.  I also agree that the Sonicorbiter SE is an overachiever considering how inexpensive it is.  The excellent and much more expensive TotalDac server with reclocker is based on this same Cubox cpu.  
  
 Regarding the upcoming microRendu, this will be a very special device.  I have been following this closely and have contributed to the thread on CA.  I got a chance to hear a pre-production microRendu at Vinnie Rossi's room at AXPONA this past weekend and my opinion is that it was fantastic.  A $15k turntable was playing as well and while the sound from the turntable sounded denser and more organic, this may have more to do with the DAC in Vinnie's LIO not being top quality, certainly not DAVE level.
  
 Because the microRendu is so small, the signal path from input to output will be extremely short.  It will have everything that is necessary and nothing that is unnecessary including any circuitry that can contribute to RF noise.  With the microRendu, the quality of the PSU will absolutely matter and it is speculated that the specialized PSU that John Swenson is designing for the microRendu could cost up to $2k, pretty hefty considering the microRendu will sell for only $640.  If you consider the microRendu (which is smaller than a deck of cards) will have 2 low jitter oscillators (clocks), one for the CPU and one for the USB hub and that this little device will have 10 tightly regulated zones (including one each for the CPU and USB hub as well as one each for the clocks), the expectations are very high that this little server could possibly be the best USB transport in existence today.  The goal is "goose bumps" and I have one on order.
  
 This brings up another good point as to why some servers could sound better than others.  Those of you who have an Oppo BDP-105 and have listened to Tidal streaming through your Oppo probably realize how bad Tidal streaming from the Oppo sounds.  Why CD playback can sound so good and Tidal streaming so bad, I'm not sure, but I have presumed it is due to jitter.  The first convincing sign I found that the DAVE is immune to source jitter is Tidal streaming from the Oppo through the DAVE sounds truly excellent, as good as CD playback from the Oppo. This is when I became a believer.  So my observations thus far, even with these newer revelations is that even bad sources sound really good with the DAVE but exceptional sources can sound even better.  If we accept Rob's claim that the DAVE is immune to source jitter and reasonably immune to source RF, could there be other factors contributing to SQ?  If you review the microRendu thread on CA, you will find a recent post by John Swenson (co-inventor of the microRendu) where he talks about the importance of the power supply to SQ and how many linear power supplies, even very quiet power supplies, are often inadequate to properly power a music server due to high impedance and lack of ability to quickly and adequately deliver large amounts of transient current.  It leaves me to wonder whether sufficient high quality power delivered on demand is at least as important as clean power and whether this is why certain music servers sound better.  Anyway, some food for thought.


----------



## romaz

paul79 said:


> Is it a bit perfect issue with the different digital sources or perhaps RFI creeping in with certain digital sources/cables? Could also be noise from these components fed back into the AC causing a "system issue". Thoughts?


 
 Very good point.  RF backwash can be a big deal.  Based on how dramatically improved the DAVE is sounding with this magnetic conduction technology by High Fidelity, I suspect RF could be a bigger deal than I initially anticipated, even with all of my measures to combat RF.  I have a power conditioner (MC-6 Hemisphere) being sent to me by High Fidelity that is supposed to address all of this in a way that I have never addressed before and if it results in the dramatic improvements I have been promised to expect, then I have to believe RF is a major culprit.  Knowing how you feel about power conditioners robbing dynamics from the DAC, Paul, this power conditioner supposedly adds zero impedance to the power flowing through it.  Here is the unit I am talking about:
  
 http://www.highfidelitycables.com/products/conditioner/mc6h/


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> Given how good DAVE sounded with my el cheapo USB cable from my laptop, I'm wondering how much better the music can get?? Thanks for exploring these frontiers.


 
 Given that you listened to the DAVE via the High Fidelity CT-1 Enhanced RCA interconnects, I can only imagine how good your system sounded!


----------



## paul79

This conditioner need to be close to the system feed, or can it be a recep in proximity on the same circuit? How close to the system fed does it have to be?
  
 Sending you an email


----------



## isquirrel

Bought a DAVE today, a long night is in front of me. Ordered the stand purely because it looks sexy.
  
 Have it hooked up to the desktop (Mac Pro & Roon) via Transparent USB and Shunyata Sigma digital power cable, using the LCD-4's with stock HP cables.
  
 The adventure starts, plenty to learn from on this forum.


----------



## romaz

Congratulations, Simon!


----------



## isquirrel

romaz said:


> Congratulations, Simon!


 

 Well my friend, it was thanks to you 100%.  All ready made some discoveries.


----------



## TheAttorney

isquirrel said:


> ... All ready made some discoveries.


 











 (Although I doubt if anything conclusive can be determined in the first day of burn-in)


----------



## ecwl

isquirrel said:


> Well my friend, it was thanks to you 100%.  All ready made some discoveries.




If you have the opportunity, you should try isolating the power source to DAVE from the noisy power environment of your computer system. I've now essentially dedicated my Torus BX-5 (isolation transformer type power conditioner) to Chord DAVE. The sonic improvement without pollution from digital sources is surprising.


----------



## paulchiu

beautiful!  black stand too?  US dealer says those are really taking a long time.


----------



## JaZZ

Congrats, _Isquirrel,_ and welcome to the club!
  
  
 Interesting and confusing reports about the power-supply issues in the last couple of posts.
  
 I have used a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet for power cleaning in the past, which began to rattle half a year ago, so I removed it from the chain. I don't miss it a bit – the sound of my setup hasn't changed.
  
 Also, when I have the Hugo connected to the mains during listening to music, it sounds absolutely the same as when it's disconnected. The same goes for the Mojo.
  
 So do we really have to suppose that the battery as a buffer removes all the pollution from the wall-wart current? That doesn't seem plausible to me. But maybe others can hear a difference with the Hugo (connected vs. disconnected) and I'm just not sensitive to this kind of sonic alterations. I never heard a power conditioner or power cable make a difference – but then again, I haven't tried any high-end cables with corresponding price tag. Actually I'm open to it, but that doesn't help, apparently.


----------



## vincentm66

Hi all,
  
 Just wanted to share my little experience with Chord Dave.
  
 I’m using a Chord TT since July 2015, with a Grado PS1000. I’ve tried lots of headphones (Abysse, Fostex TH900, LDCX, Ultrasone Edition 5 and resold them all except the PS100 that I’m in love with since 3 years).
  
 I listen to classical & rock / pop around 2-5 hours per day on average (home based working) on the Hugo TT / PS1000.  
  
 I’ve asked for my dealer to test the Dave, in order to compare before purchasing.
  
 To get straight to the point the TT is quite good, but with the Dave everything’s is  better :  more air, more space, better bass impact – which is important for me-
  
 Overall it’s like moving from a room closed to the concert room to the concert room itself, I feel better the instruments, timing and each notes, there’s more relief in the music, more dynamic.
  
 Now there’s no magic: I’ve tried all my crappy mp3 and they’re still crappy.
  
 But the difference is really where the source file is good, I have some DSD concert files where I can really see a big difference between the 2 DAC / Amp combos, and this is where the Dave is shining it can extract each and every bit of detail and make it available for your ears, where in the Hugo I had to make an effort to listen and find the details.
  
 Now on some music files, to be honest I didn’t really saw that much difference, this was the case with good flac with lots of voices, less rhythmic & bass.
  
 Ill received next week a luxman P700u to test with the 2 DAC so I can more focus on the DAC as I understand that the Dave headphone amp is better than the Hugo TT one (more or less same implementation but 1/3 power more on the Dave)
  
 I love the Dave, but to be honest I’m still wondering for my use if I’m willing to pay the extra price. I’m not 100% convinced, I love the sound it delivers but the gap is not that significant overt the TT.


----------



## isquirrel

ecwl said:


> If you have the opportunity, you should try isolating the power source to DAVE from the noisy power environment of your computer system. I've now essentially dedicated my Torus BX-5 (isolation transformer type power conditioner) to Chord DAVE. The sonic improvement without pollution from digital sources is surprising.


 
  


ecwl said:


> If you have the opportunity, you should try isolating the power source to DAVE from the noisy power environment of your computer system. I've now essentially dedicated my Torus BX-5 (isolation transformer type power conditioner) to Chord DAVE. The sonic improvement without pollution from digital sources is surprising.


 

 I have a ful Shunyata Triton V2 and Typhoon + Sigma system run off a dedicated line. My rule with the DAVE is not to just go ahead and plug it into my main system but to add bits and prices along the way and see/listen to what it responds to. SO far it has responded very well to a change of power cord from stock to ALO Green Line and finally Shunyata Sigma Digital. I am conducting all of these experiments by blind testing my partner and taking notes of her reactions. She is non-audiophile but willing participant and her hearing (being a female and b younger) is no doubt sharper than mine at 50. She felt the DAVE sounded a bit flat and lifeless using the stock and ALO cable, she gave a big thumbs up when the Shunyata Sigma Digital went in.
  
 Same with Transparent USB vs the Mapleshade Optical (which Romaz put me onto and is the best Optical cable I have heard). Roy and I have always agreed that the attraction of the DAVE is that its not necessary to throw the kitchen at it to get good performance. In my system I want to find that delta of where there is value and good performance for a reasonable price. So that rules out plugging it into expensive Shunyata Power Conditioners and expensive sources like my Aurender W20. So basically I am keeping the DAVE on my desktop and not wired into the main system. I may however hook it up to my MSB UMT Transport to see what difference sit any with physical media.
  
 The only time the Aurender will be used is to compare the computer run USB vs the Aurender plus Transparent TOTL AES 110 ohm & BNC 75 ohm cables. 
  
 I also have a CAD 1543 MK2 DAC, so I will be making comparisons to that as well. Its on 24/7 burn in using the Purist Audio Enhancer disc.


----------



## isquirrel

Photos of the DAVE using the Sigma Digital pC directly into the dedicated line. I have to use a US to AUS adapter though, no way around that.
  

  
 It fits better than it looks.....


----------



## isquirrel

Newbie question, how do I change the display colours? I am finding the manual in this regard to be hard to follow, any help please with step by step instructions would be much appreciated.


----------



## isquirrel

Haha, worked out how to change the display, unplug the headphone cable and voila !


----------



## romaz

isquirrel said:


> The only time the Aurender will be used is to compare the computer run USB vs the Aurender plus Transparent TOTL AES 110 ohm & BNC 75 ohm cables.


 
 Yes, please do this and share what you are hearing.


----------



## Rob Watts

I am in Singapore doing an event, and as usual brought my Dave. But I forgot my USB cable, and Karl from AV one kindly lent me a $200 audiophile USB cable, as I wanted to listen to some mains cables with Dave using AQ Nighthawks. Anyhow, on the way back to the hotel, I passed a computer stores, and saw a $2 USB 2.0 cable, and bought it, so I would never be Dave less due to forgetting my USB cable.
  
 Thought it would be interesting to listen to the two cables on Dave using headphones, as this is the simplest system - I don't have to worry about RF upsetting the power amps etc.
  
 So listened to it, and immediately much preferred the $2 cable - much smoother, better instrument separation and focus, much more listenable. Initially I thought the audiophile cable was better - the bass was tighter - but this was just the brighter sound quality. Going back and forwards was inconsistent, so I formally shut down JRiver and ejected Dave from my Windows lap-top when going back and forth. Still preferred the $2, even though it was not supposed to make a difference to the sound.
  
 Then I realised I had made a school boy error - the headphone cable was touching the USB cable. So I properly dressed the cables, kept the headphone cable separate, made sure the USB cables were in the same place every time.
  
 Then - no difference whatsoever. The headphone cable was picking up RF noise from the larger audiophile USB cable, and that accounted for the difference in sound. So yes Dave is insensitive to the USB cable, as long as it is bit perfect data, and the RF characteristics do not affect any other part of the system. 
  
 I have noticed some posters talking about AES EBU input - this is not the best input IMHO. It will inject RF noise into Dave from the source, and this will make it sound brighter, due to more noise floor modulation. It is very easy to hear this as an improvement (like I initially thought the audiophile USB had a tighter bass) but this is just how RF noise can artificially spice up the sound. Instrument separation and focus will suffer - in the case of digital inputs, the smoother and darker sound (which can easily sound initially less impressive) is the best sound.
  
 So far all of my tests have revealed that the source makes no difference to the sound, but this could be very system dependent. Dave for sure is intolerant, but your power amps or headphones may not be so. Also, when I did my tests, I left different computers on - powering down sources may make a difference, again results will be system dependent. I will be trying more things too.
  
 My quick test with mains cables was interesting - but I need to do some more listening with different options.
  
 Rob


----------



## paul79

isquirrel said:


> Photos of the DAVE using the Sigma Digital pC directly into the dedicated line. I have to use a US to AUS adapter though, no way around that.
> 
> It fits better than it looks.....


 
 That sucks. All that money for that PC and you cant get the right connector put on it? I think my money would go to somewhere that would make it right.


----------



## Crgreen

I'm a little troubled by Rob's comments concerning RF from the balanced input having an adverse affect. I have a DAVE on order (currently using a Hugo) and am planning on providing it with a laptop feed over USB and CD from a Meridan 500 Transport via Aes/ebu. Is it being suggested that using any electrical input in addition to USB is likely to degrade sound quality? If so, that's rather dissapointing.


----------



## paul79

Depends on how the inputs are treated when not "engaged" I suppose....


----------



## Crgreen

I'm sorry, I don't really follow that. What do you mean by "treated" and "engaged"?


----------



## paulchiu

Black Dave has not arrived but the wires and power system have.  Wish I had much larger space or longer Sigmas.
  
 Trying hard not to have the Sigma HC 20amp on the floor.
  

  
 Later need some velcro to keep the Signa flushed to the outlet.
  

  
 The back of Triton V2 looks like a war-zone.
  

  
 The Sigma Analog cable does not go into the Moon 430 HAD all the way.  Forcing it causes the entire jack module on the Moon to wiggle.
  
 Dave stand will sit on top of this Moon amp.
  

  
 Most difficult device to get the Sigma analog into is the Nagra MPS.
 First, it cannot go all the way in like the Simaudio Moon 430.
 Worst, it's nearly impossible to remove.  I thought I heard a loud pop when I pulled it out.
 Upon examination, nothing cracked or became loose on the Nagra.  I wonder if it's the Shunyata.
  
 Anyway, the fit is way too tight.
  

  
  
 Paul


----------



## paul79

crgreen said:


> I'm sorry, I don't really follow that. What do you mean by "treated" and "engaged"?


 

 For example:
  
 If the AES/EBU input is completely open to the circuit, including ground when not in use, it would prevent RFI from entering the DAC.


----------



## Crgreen

Not being an electrical engineer, how would one make the input completely open to the circuit? If it helps, I intend both units to be plugged into a PS Audio Power Plant.


----------



## paul79

Relays is one way.
  
 I have a love hate relationship with any power conditioning. I have had systems where there was benefit to using them, and others where it degraded performance. Other times they presented music differently, both equally engaging, but this would be about your preference. I currently use no conditioning whatsoever, but practice use of high quality connectors and receptacles.


----------



## Crgreen

Again apologies, but don't really understand what you mean by "relays". Is there not a simple way that an electrical numptee like me could achieve what you say is necessary to avoid RF being passed to the DAVE via any of its electrical inputs? Or is it something that can only be configured by a specialist?

I've found the Power Plant to be beneficial in my system, but I think that's a separate issue.


----------



## paul79

Rob will likely answer about how he has handled this in his DAC. When I say relays, I mean that they could be used internally to open and close the signal/ground within the DAC.
  
 You could simply turn off the source not being used I suppose.


----------



## Crgreen

Well, it was Rob's comment about RFI being transmitted into the DAVE and affecting the sound that prompted my initial post. Obviously, turning the CD transport off won't solve any such problems if I want to play a CD.


----------



## lovethatsound

crgreen said:


> Well, it was Rob's comment about RFI being transmitted into the DAVE and affecting the sound that prompted my initial post. Obviously, turning the CD transport off won't solve any such problems if I want to play a CD.


Hi Crgreen
Ive had a look at your transport and it has a optical out,so really that would be the best way of doing it.Also i have tried my blue transport with AES with the Dave,and when the transport was on standby with the AES still in the Dave,NO RFI was getting into the Dave.


----------



## rkt31

any impressions of Dave being fed by Android in airplane mode using uapp ? how does Android transport compares to much more expensive transports ?


----------



## rkt31

I found Android via uapp to be better than coaxial route for mojo. but it takes about an hour for Android to sound at its best.


----------



## Crgreen

lovethatsound said:


> Hi Crgreen
> Ive had a look at your transport and it has a optical out,so really that would be the best way of doing it.Also i have tried my blue transport with AES with the Dave,and when the transport was on standby with the AES still in the Dave,NO RFI was getting into the Dave.




As a matter of interest, how does one know that? Is it just by listening? I'll give the optical.connection a try - though I've never found optical connections very satisfactory in the past - and try listening to USB with the balanced connection connected and disconnected. I think there is a standby mode on the Meridian 500 Transport. Thanks.


----------



## lovethatsound

crgreen said:


> As a matter of interest, how does one know that? Is it just by listening? I'll give the optical.connection a try - though I've never found optical connections very satisfactory in the past - and try listening to USB with the balanced connection connected and disconnected. I think there is a standby mode on the Meridian 500 Transport. Thanks.


Yes by listening,just with optical cable 1st,and then add the AES cable,if it don't sound the same then you know RFI getting in,I've tried the same thing with coaxial cable as well,and the same result.I really think you'll find using an optical cable from your transport to the Dave will give you the best sound,it's like not having a cable between your components.


----------



## tkteo

A photo from today's presentation on DAVE and Mojo at AV One, in Singapore:
 https://www.facebook.com/av1group/photos/a.426682217423431.1073741827.112788868812769/1008550939236553/?type=3&theater


----------



## Crgreen

lovethatsound said:


> Yes by listening,just with optical cable 1st,and then add the AES cable,if it don't sound the same then you know RFI getting in,I've tried the same thing with coaxial cable as well,and the same result.I really think you'll find using an optical cable from your transport to the Dave will give you the best sound,it's like not having a cable between your components.




Any particular optical cable recommended?


----------



## paul79

crgreen said:


> Well, it was Rob's comment about RFI being transmitted into the DAVE and affecting the sound that prompted my initial post. Obviously, turning the CD transport off won't solve any such problems if I want to play a CD.


 

 You asked if the AES connection would cause problems with other inputs being used, I thought...... I think it is time to let your ears decide


----------



## lovethatsound

crgreen said:


> Any particular optical cable recommended?


Just use the one you get with your Dave.


----------



## Crgreen

paul79 said:


> You asked if the AES connection would cause problems with other inputs being used, I thought...... I think it is time to let your ears decide




That's not quite right. What I was concerned about was the following, fairly unequivocal, statement by Rob:

“I have noticed some posters talking about AES EBU input - this is not the best input IMHO. It will inject RF noise into Dave from the source, and this will make it sound brighter, due to more noise floor modulation.”

I just assumed that the designer would know more about this issue than my ears. Having agreed to pay just short of £8,000.00 for a Dave, and having missed any mention of this point in Chord’s promotional literature, you can understand my concern. 

As I'm still waiting for delivery, I'm not yet in a position to put Rob’s assertion to the test.


----------



## ecwl

crgreen said:


> I just assumed that the designer would know more about this issue than my ears. Having agreed to pay just short of £8,000.00 for a Dave, and having missed any mention of this point in Chord’s promotional literature, you can understand my concern.
> 
> As I'm still waiting for delivery, I'm not yet in a position to put Rob’s assertion to the test.




Since I basically started it all, I felt that I should explain myself further. I found DAVE to be the most source-insensitive DAC I have ever used, especially when using the Toslink or USB input. DAVE performs at such a high level that when I was listening to my video system through a miniDSP coaxial digital output into BNC powered by a cheap switch mode power supply, DAVE still sounds fantastic. That device is always on so it is constantly sending a signal through the BNC into DAVE. One day, I unplugged the BNC cable and listened to DAVE's USB input and realized it sounded a bit better. Not a lot better just a bit better but nonetheless, there was a slight performance difference. This was when I realized that DAVE was capable of even performing at a slightly higher level than I had expected. I went back and used a linear power supply for the miniDSP and improved the cable used to connect the miniDSP to the BNC input of DAVE and I got a slight improvement in performance from the DAVE when watching TV and movies. That's when I realized that if I'm not using USB or Toslink as a source, if the BNC sources are on, RF can be injected into DAVE and slightly decrease the performance of DAVE. However, even with that caveat, DAVE still performs superbly. Moreover, even with the added RF from BNC, DAVE is still much less source sensitive than all the DACs I've ever tried before. I thought I'd share my experience on this forum and I think that's what led to all the discussions that's happened since, including with the AES input and Rob's comments. 

So if I were you, waiting for the delivery of Chord DAVE, I would be very reassured that no matter what input I use for the DAVE, you're going to get phenomenal sound. However, if you want to push DAVE to the limit, you may find that Toslink or USB input might sound slightly better than BNC/AES. But then again, you might not. After all, it depends on how high quality your source BNC/AES signal is and from the sounds of it, your source from Meridien is likely to be far superior to my cheap miniDSP device.


----------



## Crgreen

Thanks. That clarifies a great deal. I've found the Hugo quite superb, so I can't wait for my Dave to arrive. Currently, towards the end of May.


----------



## isquirrel

crgreen said:


> Any particular optical cable recommended?


 

 Romaz put me onto one from Maplesahde. Its long at 14" however it comes packed with a note explaining why that is the optimum length. Its also a great price ($119) and has a 30 day money back guarantee, I bought both types of connections which has come in really handy and it sounds good without all the usual hassles of placement or interference. I remember Rob saying a long time ago about the Hugo that Optical was his preferred connection.
  
 http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Mapleshade-Clearlink-Optical-Cable-Standard-Toslink/productinfo/OPTICAL-ST/


----------



## Crgreen

Thanks, but I'm not sure Mapleshade products are available here in the UK


----------



## Jawed

Isn't it simpler to rip your CDs and play all of them through USB, which is the best sounding input?


----------



## Crgreen

As a solution that would I suppose, avoid any problem save that it would involve further issues. Much of my music has been ripped to disc, but I still have a lot which I've chosen to keep on CD, mostly classical, due to well known clunky metadata issues and that I want to keep sleeve notes, librettos and translations to hand. I'm not ready to give up on CD yet. Also, ripping CDs en masse and editing metadata is probably the most boring activity known to man. I'm not sure I've got the stamina for doing too much more of that!


----------



## TheAttorney

isquirrel said:


> Romaz put me onto one from Maplesahde. Its long at 14" however it comes packed with a note explaining why that is the optimum length. Its also a great price ($119)
> http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Mapleshade-Clearlink-Optical-Cable-Standard-Toslink/productinfo/OPTICAL-ST/


 
  
 Is this a new model? I don't recall it being this long when I had previously visited their site.
  
 BTW, in the UK, 14" means 14 inches. The actual length is a whopping 14 feet! (14'). Strange that this should be the optimal length becuase coiling an optical cable does degrade the light transmission, so I wonder what the plus side is of the longer cable to overcome that down side?
  
 Anyway, I've heard this one mentioned enough times now that I've just ordered it. Curious how it will compare against my still-on-loan AQ Diamond, which is about 3 times shorter and over 4 times more expensive.


----------



## Crgreen

14 feet? My hi-fi would end up looking like the Laocoön:
  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laoco%C3%B6n#/media/File:Laocoon_Pio-Clementino_Inv1059-1064-1067.jpg


----------



## rkt31

I don't own Dave but IMHO it should sound good with least of the equipments around as other equipments radiate their own RF noise . a good power cable with a single ferrite choke at Dave end directly into the power supply and good USB cable is all one should need. I may be wrong but keeping things simple for a product like Dave would go well aesthetically too besides sounding good. I have read some very good reviews of furutech USB cable . I found furutech cable extremely calm and transparent be it speaker cable or interconnect.


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## rkt31

adding two aq jitterbug to usb inputs of laptop would also help in further improving sound.


----------



## paulchiu

isquirrel said:


> Romaz put me onto one from Maplesahde. Its long at 14" however it comes packed with a note explaining why that is the optimum length. Its also a great price ($119) and has a 30 day money back guarantee, I bought both types of connections which has come in really handy and it sounds good without all the usual hassles of placement or interference. I remember Rob saying a long time ago about the Hugo that Optical was his preferred connection.
> 
> http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Mapleshade-Clearlink-Optical-Cable-Standard-Toslink/productinfo/OPTICAL-ST/


 
  
 Simon, on the Dave.  Can you switch with the remote from source to source (USB, optical, etc) without any delays?
 Does optical goes only up to 192khz?
  
 Paul


----------



## paulchiu

rkt31 said:


> adding two aq jitterbug to usb inputs of laptop would also help in further improving sound.


 
  
 This does improve the sound with my Hugo somewhat.  Like maybe <1% with a second jitterbug at first, but after a month, removing the second made no difference.
 Regarding adding jitterbug to Dave, I am not sure if one or two will make any difference as jitterbugs have made no difference with my Nagra HD DAC,
  
 Paul


----------



## ecwl

paulchiu said:


> Simon, on the Dave.  Can you switch with the remote from source to source (USB, optical, etc) without any delays?
> Does optical goes only up to 192khz?
> 
> Paul




You can rotate through the sources with the remote (left and right buttons). But there is no remote button that directly selects a specific input sources, say USB or Toslink 2 or BNC 4.

The DAVE manual says optical goes only up to 192kHz. But I'm not even sure where you can find a Toslink source that goes above 192kHz. If you know one, please share. I think my desktop Windows PC's Toslink output only goes up to 96kHz. My Peachtree X1 USB to S/PDIF/Toslink converter also goes up to 96kHz only via Toslink.

I see in your other posts that you use USB anyway. So you can use USB with DAVE. Probably best input for DAVE anyway.


----------



## paulchiu

ecwl said:


> You can rotate through the sources with the remote (left and right buttons). But there is no remote button that directly selects a specific input sources, say USB or Toslink 2 or BNC 4.
> 
> The DAVE manual says optical goes only up to 192kHz. But I'm not even sure where you can find a Toslink source that goes above 192kHz. If you know one, please share. I think my desktop Windows PC's Toslink output only goes up to 96kHz. My Peachtree X1 USB to S/PDIF/Toslink converter also goes up to 96kHz only via Toslink.
> 
> I see in your other posts that you use USB anyway. So you can use USB with DAVE. Probably best input for DAVE anyway.


 
  
 ecwl,
 thanks for this.  I do use only USB now for my Nagra, etc.  The talk of using optical excites me because as Simon cited, sounds just as good without various interference and placement issues.  Since I have lots of optical wires in the closet, I wonder if I can have say, two source with one USB and the other optical and remotely toggle the Dave to play each.  that will be real easy to compare.
 I think you're right about 96khz.  One reason I stopped using it years ago.  2010'ish
  
 paul


----------



## isquirrel

paulchiu said:


> Simon, on the Dave.  Can you switch with the remote from source to source (USB, optical, etc) without any delays?
> Does optical goes only up to 192khz?
> 
> Paul


 

 Bit early here now 4.10am, I will test it and report when I get a chance later on. I was pretty sure it did 24/192.


----------



## gryphonos

Dear all,
I am new to this forum as the Dave is to me. In listening music I mainly focus on classical and jazz music. During the time I did music by myself, I played classical piano and drums.
Since a while now I participate in this thread and after short time I was infected by the virus dave, by the idea to be able to play my red book and 24 bit flac files on another level. What impressed my most by the development of this dac, was Rob’s approach to talk to the neurophysiologists at first and to ask:, how does our ear work and how do we detect a tune: namely by the gradients at the beginning and at the end of a tune. It was even more astonishing to realize that the final product based on this scientific knowledge WORKS.

It is a matter of fact that I never heard my music so lively, naturally, airy, independent on how I lead the music to the Dave: 
-Internet radio by tunein radio in safari browser via macbook: for example ~120kbit/s stream by jazz24 or “bayern klassik” classical radio.
-Qobuz 16/44
-16/44 to 24/192 flac
- DSD128

The sound is exceptional!!

I would like to ask you the following:
Until now I use preamplifier and power amplifier. Cause many of you recommend using a direct connection between Dave and power amp, I am curious how it might sound. Do you prefer an unbalanced (Cinch cable) or balanced (XLR) connection between Dave and power amp?

When Dave is in pre-amp mode I can use Chord’s remote control to highlight the single features and adjust the settings on Dave. When Dave is in dac mode I am not able to do this via the remote control. I can not even highlight the setting features in the display.
Manually everything works fine.

Is this behaviour normal?


Thank you very much for you help.

Classic Sound


----------



## isquirrel

crgreen said:


> Thanks, but I'm not sure Mapleshade products are available here in the UK


 

 I am in Australia, you can order it on-line for overseas delivery.


----------



## Crgreen

isquirrel said:


> I am in Australia, you can order it on-line for overseas delivery.




The problem with that is that postage and probably, import duty are a bit of a killer. I'm also wondering where I'd put four feet of cable for components on adjoining shelves on my rack! Given that the optical cable that comes with the Dave is said to be satisfactory, I might stick with that to start, but I'd be interested to hear other views. 

Re: Jitterbug, with the Hugo, I have found this makes an appreciable difference. I'll try it on the Dave and see.


----------



## izzard1982

ecwl said:


> You can rotate through the sources with the remote (left and right buttons). But there is no remote button that directly selects a specific input sources, say USB or Toslink 2 or BNC 4.
> 
> The DAVE manual says optical goes only up to 192kHz. But I'm not even sure where you can find a Toslink source that goes above 192kHz. If you know one, please share. I think my desktop Windows PC's Toslink output only goes up to 96kHz. My Peachtree X1 USB to S/PDIF/Toslink converter also goes up to 96kHz only via Toslink.
> 
> I see in your other posts that you use USB anyway. So you can use USB with DAVE. Probably best input for DAVE anyway.




I have a Fostex HP-A4 which is a DAC/AMP but can act as a USB to Toslink/BNC interface as well, and it's optical out can do 192k, I know becaus I'm using it like this everyday with DAVE.


----------



## paulchiu

izzard1982 said:


> I have a Fostex HP-A4 which is a DAC/AMP but can act as a USB to Toslink/BNC interface as well, and it's optical out can do 192k, I know becaus I'm using it like this everyday with DAVE.


 
  
 Does it show 192khz on the Dave front display? Can it go even higher?
  
 Paul


----------



## ecwl

gryphonos said:


> Until now I use preamplifier and power amplifier. Cause many of you recommend using a direct connection between Dave and power amp, I am curious how it might sound. Do you prefer an unbalanced (Cinch cable) or balanced (XLR) connection between Dave and power amp?
> 
> When Dave is in pre-amp mode I can use Chord’s remote control to highlight the single features and adjust the settings on Dave. When Dave is in dac mode I am not able to do this via the remote control. I can not even highlight the setting features in the display.
> Manually everything works fine.
> ...




Rob Watts recommend unbalanced over balanced output to the power amp because of lower noise floor. I'm unable to test this because of my personal setup. Would be interesting to see if anyone else on the forum has tried.

Since I have no pre-amp, I'm not going to put my DAVE to DAC mode to test the remote. But I can tell you, I can change the settings with the remote. I hit the BAL+ button (which has the letters MENU written underneath it) to activate choosing one of the 4 options that we can change and then I can use the up and down arrow buttons to choose which of the 4 options to change. But I rarely change the settings.


----------



## izzard1982

paulchiu said:


> Does it show 192khz on the Dave front display? Can it go even higher?
> 
> Paul




Yes, it does show 192 on DAVE. I don't think it can go higher than 192.


----------



## isquirrel

Can confirm that Optical will play up 24/192 no problem. DAVE also drives the Abyss really well, I am thoroughly enjoying the pairing. Plenty of PRAT and dynamic impact Volume level is set at -10dB max it will go to is +19dB and the Abyss is so loud I cannot listen to it. I am actually delighted with the pairing, Sounds excellent on PCM and DSD.
  
 I am beginning to have a love affair with the DAVE, so far I have restricted myself to Roon from the Mac via USB. Time to hook it up to the big system and see what we have.


----------



## Kamil21

isquirrel said:


> Can confirm that Optical will play up 24/192 no problem. DAVE also drives the Abyss really well, I am thoroughly enjoying the pairing. Plenty of PRAT and dynamic impact Volume level is set at -10dB max it will go to is +19dB and the Abyss is so loud I cannot listen to it. I am actually delighted with the pairing, Sounds excellent on PCM and DSD.
> 
> I am beginning to have a love affair with the DAVE, so far I have restricted myself to Roon from the Mac via USB. Time to hook it up to the big system and see what we have.




Awesome, isquirrel. It would be interesting to learn of your comparison with the MSB Select .


----------



## isquirrel

kamil21 said:


> Awesome, isquirrel. It would be interesting to learn of your comparison with the MSB Select .


 

 Sorry to disappoint, but that's not going happen. I will say they are both very good DAC's and I will be leaving it there.


----------



## isquirrel

crgreen said:


> The problem with that is that postage and probably, import duty are a bit of a killer. I'm also wondering where I'd put four feet of cable for components on adjoining shelves on my rack! Given that the optical cable that comes with the Dave is said to be satisfactory, I might stick with that to start, but I'd be interested to hear other views.
> 
> Re: Jitterbug, with the Hugo, I have found this makes an appreciable difference. I'll try it on the Dave and see.


 

 Postage was like $30 and there are no duties payable as its less than $1,000. AS for the length you can just cry it up, not too tight and tuck it under a shelf, that's the beauty of Optical zero interference.


----------



## Rob Watts

Optical will play 24/192 no problem if - and that's a big if - the transmitter and the cable is up to it.
  
 We used to use the Toshiba range of optical rx. and tx., and they were excellent, you could use 1m of cheap palstic fibre and it would work fine.
  
 But around 3 years ago they stopped making them, and the replacements - specified at 16 Mb/s NRZ - 250 kHz - are a bit iffy, in that they will do 250 kHz if the cable is very good. This means that 192k will work with a decent tx. and 0.25m cheap plastic fibre. But if you want 192k and longer lengths, you need a quality low loss glass fibre.
  
 To get 192k to work with the poorer tx and rx was not easy. The optical rx. have a differing fall time to rise time; fortunately it is a consistent error. So built into the SPDIF demodulator in the FPGA I actually measure this error, then dynamically compensate for it, so it gets eliminated. That was the only way I could get it to work at 192 kHz reliably.
  
 Its interesting that AP used to specify their test equipment as 192k, but now they say 96k. Its a real shame that 33 years after Toslink was invented we are actually going backwards in data rate.
  
 Rob


----------



## romaz

I can verify the Mapleshades optical cable will play 24/192 and DSD128.  It is as good an optical cable as I have found regardless of price and while 14 feet of length is a strange length, it coils easily and without compromise in sonics.


----------



## romaz

isquirrel said:


> DAVE also drives the Abyss really well, I am thoroughly enjoying the pairing.


 
 I am enjoying this pairing now as well.  I had much trouble with the Abyss in the past due to an annoyingly bright treble that would cause headaches after about an hour.  I have a loaner Abyss in my possession now and despite the smoothness of the DAVE, the brightness is still there with both the stock cable and the more expensive JPS SC cable which I find isn't much of an improvement.  I had almost given up but my adapters finally came in and I am now able to connect the Silver Spore4 to the Abyss and finally, that brightness is gone and the Abyss just sounds glorious.  It has been the cable all along.  I have been listening to the Abyss for several hours now and no headache or fatigue!  Oddly, the sub bass on my HE-1000 and TH-900 is still better IMO but I find that the Abyss has much better presence and nothing performs as well when I want an illuminated and commanding performance.  It fills in nicely for all the music I used my HD800 S for but with much better tonal balance and so I will be selling off my HD800 S.  If anyone is interested, please PM me.


----------



## isquirrel

romaz said:


> I am enjoying this pairing now as well.  I had much trouble with the Abyss in the past due to an annoyingly bright treble that would cause headaches after about an hour.  I have a loaner Abyss in my possession now and despite the smoothness of the DAVE, the brightness is still there with both the stock cable and the more expensive JPS SC cable which I find isn't much of an improvement.  I had almost given up but my adapters finally came in and I am now able to connect the Silver Spore4 to the Abyss and finally, that brightness is gone and the Abyss just sounds glorious.  It has been the cable all along.  I have been listening to the Abyss for several hours now and no headache or fatigue!  Oddly, the sub bass on my HE-1000 and TH-900 is still better IMO but I find that the Abyss has much better presence and nothing performs as well when I want an illuminated and commanding performance.  It fills in nicely for all the music I used my HD800 S for but with much better tonal balance and so I will be selling off my HD800 S.  If anyone is interested, please PM me.


 

 That annoying bright glare that the Abyss had as stock is what led me down the road last year to finding a new cable for it and that's how I found DHC. The cable works wonders for the Abyss and the DAVE really drives it well, there is no way I would want more gain out of it. Trouble I am having is the Headphone socket is recessed so I can't quite get the DHC XLR to 6.3mm Jack to click into place. Frustrating !!
  
 I contacted Joe and asked him to send out a headband with shorter rubber hooks on both sides which keeps the earopads higher and off the tops of my ears, that has really improved the comfort level. Still not at HE-1000 level, but i find I get used to them after an hour or so of listening. The SC cable is an interesting one, I found it heavy and I think I preferred the stock cable.
  
 How do you have your Abyss setup, are you using much toe in? Do you have them setup all the way out ?


----------



## romaz

isquirrel said:


> Trouble I am having is the Headphone socket is recessed so I can't quite get the DHC XLR to 6.3mm Jack to click into place. Frustrating !!
> 
> How do you have your Abyss setup, are you using much toe in? Do you have them setup all the way out ?


 
 Because Peter Bradstock is so busy, I luckily found a Head-fi member (Peterek) who is an excellent cable maker and cable modifier and he, in fact, uses DHC cable for his best builds.  For example, he modified my TH-900 so that the headphone cable is now removable and I can now use my Silver Spore4 on it.  He also took my Silver Spore4 and re-terminated the XLRs with a 6.35mm jack so I don't have to use the DHC adapter.   The adapter was a nice convenience but it just didn't work well for me.  
  
 I haven't tried toeing in the Abyss.  Obviously, I will need to learn to master how to adjust it properly but it is working well for me, nonetheless.  I have them extended all the way out. and the fit is comfortable enough but not HE-1000 or TH-900 comfortable.  It is for sure a good fit with the DAVE, plenty of power as you've said.


----------



## Sonic77

http://headphone.guru/the-chord-dave-digital-or-analogue/
  
 Another great review of the Dave is out, I don't know if this was posted yet.


----------



## romaz

sonic77 said:


> http://headphone.guru/the-chord-dave-digital-or-analogue/
> 
> Another great review of the Dave is out, I don't know if this was posted yet.


 
 Finally, a worthy review of the DAVE.  Thank you and well done, @Frank I!


----------



## lovethatsound

sonic77 said:


> http://headphone.guru/the-chord-dave-digital-or-analogue/
> 
> Another great review of the Dave is out, I don't know if this was posted yet.


A fantastic review,and a very 
real review of the Dave in my opinion. I must admit i felt sorry for the guy,having a Dave in is system,and reviewing it,then wanting it,and the wife saying NO.


----------



## Frank I

Thank you Guys for the kind words. i am still missing my buddy DAVE but man what a piece.


----------



## JaZZ

Thank you, Frank, for this vivid and enthusiastic review! But not a single point of criticism? Maybe you were a bit uncritical?
  
 However, actually I agree with everything. I can't find a single sonic flaw with DAVE myself, it's simply perfect by today's standards. And so musical!


----------



## Frank I

jazz said:


> Thank you, Frank, for this vivid and enthusiastic review! But not a single point of criticism? Maybe you were a bit uncritical?
> 
> However, actually I agree with everything. I can't find a single sonic flaw with DAVE myself, it's simply perfect by today's standards. And so musical
> .


 
  
 There really no was downsideI found listening with the DAVE. The Musicality and tonality of instrumentation was what I hear live. Rob brilliant work on  the musicality is highly commended. Mr Watts is a genius in design and has nailed it with the DAVE. Looking forward to more great stuff from Rob Watts and the Chord team.  Glad you liked the review.


----------



## Sonic77

lovethatsound said:


> A fantastic review,and a very
> real review of the Dave in my opinion. I must admit i felt sorry for the guy,having a Dave in is system,and reviewing it,then wanting it,and the wife saying NO.


 

 Me too, maybe someday he gets one.


----------



## shuttlepod

I have now had a Schiit Yggdrasil (Yggy) dac in-house for over ten days. During that time, I’ve listened to Yggy every single day for anywhere from one to four hours. Yggy has been playing continuously and now has over 200 hours of burn-in.
  
 When I posted my rave review of the DAVE (p 150 of this thread) based on a two-week audition, I said that I would defer any purchase of the DAVE until I did my “due diligence” by auditioning the Yggy. Although these two dacs are at wildly different price points ($2300 vs. $13,300), my thought process was that if Yggy came close to DAVE in performance, I would gladly spend extra $ on an excellent music server, cables, and standalone headphone amp and probably still come out ahead. Yggy has a loyal and passionate user base. I was curious. And Schiit of course invites comparisons to elite dacs.
  
 Now I am fully aware that this comparison is not really fair to the Yggy. Apart from the price differential, I would be relying on my fallible audio memory of the DAVE and Hugo TT (although I would be able to directly compare my Ayre QB-9 DSD to the Yggy). I would be using my electrically noisy MacBook Pro to feed Yggy’s USB input, which is not galvanically isolated (as is the DAVE’s USB input), and is not its best-sounding input according to many. I would be using Yggy with its RCA, not balanced, outputs.
  
 So my expectations were that Yggy would likely fall short of DAVE in performance, but the question was how short. And I expected Yggy would compete with and likely best my Ayre dac, based on reviews of Yggy and Schiit’s direct sales model. In fact, I expected Yggy to compete with and perhaps best the Hugo TT, which I had preferred over my Ayre.
  
 I listened to Yggy in my two-channel system, which you can examine in my profile. Like the DAVE, Yggy was fed with an Audience Au24 SE LP power cord and sat on three Stillpoints (Ultra Minis). (By the way, Yggy benefited greatly from the Stillpoints.)
  
 Many users have commented that Yggy needs a lot of burn-in. Despite 200 hours of burn-in, I assume it will continue to improve. Yggy does indeed sound like **** at first – all sepia tones, dessicated, and fairly lifeless. That changes after 2-3 days. After 5-6 days of listening, I began to get a bead on this dac.
  
 To my ears, Yggy has a number of strengths for its price point. The sound is crisp, detailed, fast, with good forward energy and PRAT. There is very little digital glare or brightness. Resolution is very good. Certain rock tunes sound cleaner and more clear with Yggy, e.g., Radiohead’s Subterranean Homesick Alien. There is a rhythmic snap and vitality on something like Cassandra Wilson’s Seven Steps to Heaven or the Roy Haines Trio. Bass, while on the lean side, has virtually no bloat or overhang and percussion can sound very dynamic.
  
 Despite these strengths, I did not fall in love with the Yggy. The emotional connection was generally missing. I puzzled over why this was the case and I think a large part of it has to do with my own musical/sonic priorities. I may be an outlier on these issues – Yggy has received so many accolades, and some of those accolades directly contradict my own experience. So Yggy fans, don’t get too upset. Continue to enjoy your dac. I won’t engage you in a war of words.
  
 Ok, here is where – to my ears – Yggy comes up short, especially in comparison to DAVE, but also in comparison to the QB-9 and Hugo TT.  
  
 Tone:  When I say tone, I don’t just mean timbre, although timbre is critical. I also mean where tone sits on the lean vs. rich spectrum, the degree of color saturation, and whether harmonic overtones are present to give appropriate body and complexity to tone. To my ears, Yggy’s tone is lean. Acoustic guitar lacks vibrancy, body, and sparkle. Female vocals sound papery at times. Piano attack is clean and clear and fast piano runs are well-resolved. But piano sustain is not generous or realistic. In general, tone lacked depth and complexity. With all the other dacs I have heard recently (all of which cost substantially more than Yggy), I hear better tone. Tone on DAVE is astoundingly, mind-bogglingly good.
  
 Air, space, and depth:  This is where Chord dacs excel, especially DAVE. Yggy, on the other hand, sometimes seems almost airless. Yggy has less “bloom” than just about any  dac I’ve heard – the sense of an instrument’s tone expanding into the air surrounding the instrument, like the live body sound of a cello. For appropriate bloom, like that heard with acoustic instruments in a concert hall, you need a sense of air. When I attend a concert in Benaroya Hall in Seattle, I hear tone floating on a cushion of air. That sense of air and space and the music interacting with the venue will vary dramatically from location to location. Air is generally less important with studio recordings. So your mileage may vary depending on the music you listen to.
  
 Interestingly, Chris Connaker, in his very positive review of the Yggy on computeraudiophile.com, also observed that the Yggy’s lack of air was “very noticeable.” Connaker, however, ventured that the Yggy might be “on the right side of history” with regard to this attribute, speculating that the lack of air might correspond to a lack of ringing and that dacs based on a Sigma-Delta chip might create a false sense of air and space. This particular theory would not apply, of course, to various Chord dacs.
  
 Since most of us are not present for a recording and don’t have access to masters, we have to rely on our judgment and taste as to what sounds more real. To my ears, a sense of air, space and depth between and among performers creates a more realistic impression of music, more like what I hear when I attend concerts.
  
 Dry vs. wet presentation:  This is actually related to both tone and a sense of air and space around voices and instruments. I found Yggy to be very dry in its presentation. By that I mean a combination of leaner tone, less reverberation from the air surrounding the performers, and a shorter sustain and decay to individual tones. In direct comparison, the QB-9 sounds lush, wet, and juicy with more of a natural flow to the music.
  
 Finally, DSD on the Yggy, as played through Roon, did not compare well to DSD through the other dacs. Yggy relies on outboard conversion of DSD to PCM, and so Roon did the converting for the DSD tracks that I listened to. That conversion results in the loss of a bit perfect signal. It may also impose too much of a burden on my laptop computer that detracts from its ability to send a clean signal to the dac. Whatever the reason, the result was a flatter, relatively colorless presentation. DSD represents well under 5% of my library, but that still amounts to about 150 albums.
  
 An audio buddy came for a listening session yesterday, after the Yggy had clocked about 200 hours. He has been interested in the Yggy for quite a while and is a regular on computeraudiophile, where Yggy has created quite a stir. So his curiosity was whetted. His reaction can be summed up as: “Nice dac, but I heard nothing that drew me in or called out any special quality.” He thought the QB-9 and Yggy were fairly close in overall quality. His memory of the Hugo TT put it on a slightly higher plane. We both agreed DAVE was in a completely different league.
  
 In the end, I just did not cotton to the Yggy. I think Schiit is a great company that is bringing a lot of high end gear to a wide audience. I like its iconoclastic, populist style. Unlike Rob Watts and John Franks, both of whom have made some derogatory comments on this thread about Schiit (that, in an apparent show of better judgment, were quickly deleted), I respect what Schiit has accomplished and get a real kick out of its marketing savvy.
  
 I am pretty sure there are other dacs that compete with DAVE in terms of absolute sonic quality (though I have not had the pleasure of listening to many summit-fi dacs). I’m not sure there are other dacs that compete with it in terms of value. DAVE’s unique combination of world class dac, direct-to-dac headphone out, and relative immunity to sources seems to put it in a class of its own at the moment. I never thought I would be plunking down this kind of cash for a dac, although I did just that (and more) a few years ago for a first-rate analog rig. This is the first time, however, that I have heard digital compete on a relatively consistent basis with analog. The order is in, the wait is three weeks. Licking my chops.


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> I have now had a Schiit Yggdrasil (Yggy) dac in-house for over ten days...


 
 Just like last time, Jon, a very well written, thoughtful and informative read.  Thank you!  
  
 On a separate note, I have ordered the same CT-1 Enhanced RCA IC that you have and it comes in today.


----------



## shuttlepod

romaz said:


> Just like last time, Jon, a very well written, thoughtful and informative read.  Thank you!
> 
> On a separate note, I have ordered the same CT-1 Enhanced RCA IC that you have and it comes in today.


 

 Will be interested in your impressions, Roy.


----------



## paulchiu

I love reading all these well thought out and edited reviews on the Dave while I await my black Dave to arrive.
 Keep them coming folks!
  
 Paul


----------



## kennyb123

shuttlepod said:


> An audio buddy came for a listening session yesterday, after the Yggy had clocked about 200 hours. He has been interested in the Yggy for quite a while and is a regular on computeraudiophile, where Yggy has created quite a stir. So his curiosity was whetted. His reaction can be summed up as: “Nice dac, but I heard nothing that drew me in or called out any special quality.” He thought the QB-9 and Yggy were fairly close in overall quality. His memory of the Hugo TT put it on a slightly higher plane. We both agreed DAVE was in a completely different league.


 
  
 That was me and it perfectly sums up my impressions.  The Hugo TT, while being close to the QB9-DSD, had something special to offer that was immediately obvious.  I was expecting a similar reaction to the Yggy, but it never took me there.  I ended up preferring the Ayre as I thought it had more to offer in a few areas really important to me.  And yes, the DAVE was in a different league altogether.
  
 Really nice write-up Jon!


----------



## wisnon

shuttlepod said:


> I have now had a Schiit Yggdrasil (Yggy) dac in-house for over ten days. During that time, I’ve listened to Yggy every single day for anywhere from one to four hours. Yggy has been playing continuously and now has over 200 hours of burn-in.
> 
> When I posted my rave review of the DAVE (p 150 of this thread) based on a two-week audition, I said that I would defer any purchase of the DAVE until I did my “due diligence” by auditioning the Yggy. Although these two dacs are at wildly different price points ($2300 vs. $13,300), my thought process was that if Yggy came close to DAVE in performance, I would gladly spend extra $ on an excellent music server, cables, and standalone headphone amp and probably still come out ahead. Yggy has a loyal and passionate user base. I was curious. And Schiit of course invites comparisons to elite dacs.
> 
> ...


 

 I hated the hugo, but think the DAVE is very very good. Though I prefer my Lampi Golden Gate (most musical and tonally accurate dac out there), the DAVE i CONCEDE is a serious player. The Yggy is only "good" in my humble opinion. Enjoy the purchase. Rob finally delivered to my expectations. I own a Qute EX as well.


----------



## paulchiu

wisnon said:


> I hated the hugo, but think the DAVE is very very good. Though I prefer my Lampi Golden Gate (most musical and tonally accurate dac out there), the DAVE i CONCEDE is a serious player. The Yggy is only "good" in my humble opinion. Enjoy the purchase. Rob finally delivered to my expectations. I own a Qute EX as well.


 
  
 Interesting you mentioned the Lampizator, it shares the same display as my Nagra HD DAC.
  

  
 My Nagra
  

  
 Think the Chord Dave uses a different type and vendor.
  
 Paul


----------



## isquirrel

frank i said:


> There really no was downsideI found listening with the DAVE. The Musicality and tonality of instrumentation was what I hear live. Rob brilliant work on  the musicality is highly commended. Mr Watts is a genius in design and has nailed it with the DAVE. Looking forward to more great stuff from Rob Watts and the Chord team.  Glad you liked the review.


 

 Good review, congratulations, did you try it with all the different inputs or did you discover a preference for type of input. 
  
 On a side note, its impossible to make a statement saying "this is the best" or words to that effect. Roman and I have discussed this at length and all you can possibly say is "this is the best I have experienced". To reach a conclusion of what is the undisputed "best" you would have to define a test scenario where everyone agreed on the rules, there would be blind testing involved, the entire testing methodology would have to be debated. Still after all that there would still be people who would dispute the tests findings, there would be flaws discovered etc. 
  
 I don't envy your job as reviewer having to make these types of comparisons with other equipment that the general readership seems to demand. I also own a MSB Select II DAC, the DAVE and have either listened to or owned several other "serious" DAC's over the past 2 years. People are always asking me what's the best, my thinking has changed, I now don't get involved in discussions about "what's the best", but simply ask myself the question, am I enjoying music through this piece of audio equipment enough to want to own it. 
  
 In the DAVE's case that's a clear yes. I would also add that measurements also have to take a distant 2nd place to how something sounds. As we have recently seen with Tyll's review of the LCD-4 and the subsequent response from Audeze. Measurements are also subject to change depending on how, who and under what scenario's.
  
 Thank you for a well thought out review.


----------



## Crgreen

Usually, when someone says something's the best in contexts like this, it's taken to mean, the best I've heard. We all know that a reviewer can't have heard everything so it's unnecessary to say so.


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## REXNFX

Best is subjective but it's important to find reviewers who like a similar sound to you. Personally I only trust reviewers who currently run an analog front end as comparing digital to digital seems pretty pointless to me.


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## Frank I

isquirrel said:


> Good review, congratulations, did you try it with all the different inputs or did you discover a preference for type of input.
> 
> On a side note, its impossible to make a statement saying "this is the best" or words to that effect. Roman and I have discussed this at length and all you can possibly say is "this is the best I have experienced". To reach a conclusion of what is the undisputed "best" you would have to define a test scenario where everyone agreed on the rules, there would be blind testing involved, the entire testing methodology would have to be debated. Still after all that there would still be people who would dispute the tests findings, there would be flaws discovered etc.
> 
> ...


 
 I used it basically with the single ended with the Rogue amplifier but also and it hooked up with the  XLR  with the Cavalli Liquid Gold. I did not try the other inputs and did not have a separate power amp to use it for a preamp. When I said best  I have heard it was in context of the DAC'sI have heard through the years in an out of different systems.  To my ears it made me forget about all the things I disliked about digital through the years. There are many good products out there int he DAVE price range but I have not heard them all to make those comparison and did not have any other priced similar to compare them too when I auditioned this one, But exactly right I liked it enough to buy it if I could write the check.  I preferred it most with the single ended input to the Rogue and also tried it briefly with the VPI 229D also single ended. Very Impressive  DAC. .Thanks for the inout Simon!


----------



## Rob Watts

shuttlepod said:


> ....speculating that the lack of air might correspond to a lack of ringing and that dacs based on a Sigma-Delta chip might create a false sense of air and space....


 
  
 I have been asked this before that somehow the extra depth of my DAC's - and most particularly with Dave - was due to something added within the design. Now it is very easy to create a false sense of depth by simply adding reverb, and this of course may be done easily with the resources one has on a big FPGA. But I can prove this is not the case - simply by using flat as a pancake recordings. So Jazz at the pawnshop, is in a small venue, and should sound like it has little depth - and that's exactly how it sounds on Dave - it sounds like a small environment. When you use close miked recordings that have no added reverb it sounds completely flat, that is the sound is exactly in line with the speakers. Now if I had used some tricks to artificially enhance the depth, then everything would have more depth all the time. But this categorically does not happen with Dave - flat recordings that have no depth, has no depth, instruments that have depth will be accurately portrayed with depth.
  
 This brings me on to the most important point about subjective evaluation - to know something is better for sure (that is its not some kind of system optimisation) is variability. Then one can be sure the improvement is a fundamental step forward in transparency, rather than some fine tuning that suits the product at that time with that particular system. So I am trying to maximise the range of depth that can be heard, from completely flat to sounding miles away. And in this sense, Dave is much more varied in depth perception than any other DAC I have ever designed - by a massive margin.
  
 The technical reasons why depth is compressed in DAC's I understand, and its absolutely nothing to do with ringing or time domain behaviour (this will affect lateral imagery and height though) but is down to how accurately small signals are reproduced. Small signals are normally distorted, and have an amplitude that is modulated or changes with level. It's these tiny changes in amplitude that confuse the brain that stops one perceiving depth properly.
  
 The interesting thing I learnt with Dave is that there is *no* limit to how accurate small signals need to be for the brain to properly perceive depth. This is actually quite an amazing and surprising statement; normally you can get to a limit where reducing a distortion or error no longer has an effect; but - and this is the stunning thing - this does not seem to apply about depth perception. There is something truly amazing about how the brain accurately resolves and measures depth.
  
 Delta-sigma DAC's fundamentally have the capability of resolving small signals much more accurately than R2R or ladder DAC's as ladder DAC's are poor for small signal accuracy due to the impossibility of matching the resistors. Having said that, delta-sigma is not a panacea, to actually resolve depth properly requires a lot of care and effort, as minute errors will have an effect.
  
 Its way too complex to talk about all of the issues involved in DAC design to properly resolve depth information, I think I will talk about it in a future blog article.
  
 Rob


----------



## isquirrel

rob watts said:


> I have been asked this before that somehow the extra depth of my DAC's - and most particularly with Dave - was due to something added within the design. Now it is very easy to create a false sense of depth by simply adding reverb, and this of course may be done easily with the resources one has on a big FPGA. But I can prove this is not the case - simply by using flat as a pancake recordings. So Jazz at the pawnshop, is in a small venue, and should sound like it has little depth - and that's exactly how it sounds on Dave - it sounds like a small environment. When you use close miked recordings that have no added reverb it sounds completely flat, that is the sound is exactly in line with the speakers. Now if I had used some tricks to artificially enhance the depth, then everything would have more depth all the time. But this categorically does not happen with Dave - flat recordings that have no depth, has no depth, instruments that have depth will be accurately portrayed with depth.
> 
> This brings me on to the most important point about subjective evaluation - to know something is better for sure (that is its not some kind of system optimisation) is variability. Then one can be sure the improvement is a fundamental step forward in transparency, rather than some fine tuning that suits the product at that time with that particular system. So I am trying to maximise the range of depth that can be heard, from completely flat to sounding miles away. And in this sense, Dave is much more varied in depth perception than any other DAC I have ever designed - by a massive margin.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks Rob, looking forward to that article.


----------



## isquirrel

frank i said:


> I used it basically with the single ended with the Rogue amplifier but also and it hooked up with the  XLR  with the Cavalli Liquid Gold. I did not try the other inputs and did not have a separate power amp to use it for a preamp. When I said best  I have heard it was in context of the DAC'sI have heard through the years in an out of different systems.  To my ears it made me forget about all the things I disliked about digital through the years. There are many good products out there int he DAVE price range but I have not heard them all to make those comparison and did not have any other priced similar to compare them too when I auditioned this one, But exactly right I liked it enough to buy it if I could write the check.  I preferred it most with the single ended input to the Rogue and also tried it briefly with the VPI 229D also single ended. Very Impressive  DAC. .Thanks for the inout Simon!


 

 Would you say that the single ended outputs are sonically superior to the balanced outputs?
  
 To-date I have not felt the need to use an external amp, I am amazed at well the DAVE drives the Abyss. I thought for sure it would struggle it almost produces as much gain as my Woo Audio 234's on full Plate settings. Actually I will post a photo just so people can see how far I have the volume knobs turned around on the Woo's, compared to the same volume at 0dB on the DAVE.
  
 I find myself wishing for a Chord Headphone amp to use with other DAC's.


----------



## wisnon

Paul, the Nagra Dac is very vey good as well. Had a demo evening with it last year at Stenheims in Switzerland. The only obvious weakness is the lack of DHT tube rolling like in the Lampi. DHTs are magic.


----------



## Frank I

isquirrel said:


> Would you say that the single ended outputs are sonically superior to the balanced outputs?
> 
> To-date I have not felt the need to use an external amp, I am amazed at well the DAVE drives the Abyss. I thought for sure it would struggle it almost produces as much gain as my Woo Audio 234's on full Plate settings. Actually I will post a photo just so people can see how far I have the volume knobs turned around on the Woo's, compared to the same volume at 0dB on the DAVE.
> 
> I find myself wishing for a Chord Headphone amp to use with other DAC's.


 
 I think both were good. I used the  headphone with the balanced outputs and speakers with headphones single ended,But the amps were different with the balanced output.  Hard to say which was better but I dont think anyone would be unhappy either way.


----------



## isquirrel

frank i said:


> I think both were good. I used the  headphone with the balanced outputs and speakers with headphones single ended,But the amps were different with the balanced output.  Hard to say which was better but I dont think anyone would be unhappy either way.


 

 Sorry if I have mis-understood you, but are you saying that you ran the Headphones out of the balanced outputs ?


----------



## Frank I

isquirrel said:


> Sorry if I have mis-understood you, but are you saying that you ran the Headphones out of the balanced outputs ?


 
 I ran the Cavalli amp with the DAVE as a DAC- for headphones only. I used the single ended with the Tube amps and speakers and headphones.


----------



## isquirrel

frank i said:


> I ran the Cavalli amp withnthe DAVE as a DAC- for headphones onlly. I sued the single ended with the Tube amps and speakers and headphones.


 

 Thanks Frank for the clarification.
  
 Hopefully you will be reviewing Audeze's the" King" in the not to distant future.


----------



## Frank I

isquirrel said:


> Thanks Frank for the clarification.
> 
> Hopefully you will be reviewing Audeze's the" King" in the not to distant future.


 
 it could be interesting to review that piece. Hopefully they have it at the Headphonium in Newport Beach in June


----------



## rkt31

IMHO chord DACs by using longer tap length and elaborate digital filtering can accurately represent the timing which is only possible by this approach . that is why other DACs in similar or expensive price range can't match the depth and transparency provided by chord DACs . I still believe that even mojo can beat 'that' dac purely for sq at 1/5th or so price. yesterday mojo via uapp sounded sublime with some of the piano music. the kind decay I get for piano notes is next to impossible by any other technology on hand except in these chord DACs .


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## Crgreen

Is the Dave a balanced circuit? My experience has been that balanced circuits tend to sound better with a balanced connection and singly ended circuits with a single ended connection. On slight practical advantage for me would be that the balanced output is a whopping 6mv. I wonder why Rob said he thought the single ended output was better? Like so much else, there's no general consensus in respect of balanced v. single ended outputs.


----------



## shuttlepod

rob watts said:


> The interesting thing I learnt with Dave is that there is *no* limit to how accurate small signals need to be for the brain to properly perceive depth. This is actually quite an amazing and surprising statement; normally you can get to a limit where reducing a distortion or error no longer has an effect; but - and this is the stunning thing - this does not seem to apply about depth perception. There is something truly amazing about how the brain accurately resolves and measures depth.


 
  
 If this is the case, one must assume that the perception of depth is strongly correlated with the evolutionary survival of the species. In other words, the human ability to pinpoint sound at varying degrees of depth must have evolved into a finely honed ability because it enhanced our ability to detect threats to our survival over the millennia.


----------



## JaZZ

shuttlepod said:


> rob watts said:
> 
> 
> > The interesting thing I learnt with Dave is that there is *no* limit to how accurate small signals need to be for the brain to properly perceive depth. This is actually quite an amazing and surprising statement; normally you can get to a limit where reducing a distortion or error no longer has an effect; but - and this is the stunning thing - this does not seem to apply about depth perception. There is something truly amazing about how the brain accurately resolves and measures depth.
> ...


 
  
 Indeed!


----------



## Sunya

Rob, could you say what made you decide on the LX75 FPGA when there is also the double the size (and double the cost) LX150? Was it simply a cost issue (though at Dave's cost it shouldn't have been) or the bigger FPGA just wasn't needed for your filter and noise shaper?  I'm thinking you could have made an even longer filter with 300k+ taps on the LX150; would it have taken too much time to code?


----------



## romaz

crgreen said:


> Is the Dave a balanced circuit? My experience has been that balanced circuits tend to sound better with a balanced connection and singly ended circuits with a single ended connection. On slight practical advantage for me would be that the balanced output is a whopping 6mv. I wonder why Rob said he thought the single ended output was better? Like so much else, there's no general consensus in respect of balanced v. single ended outputs.


 
 The balanced output on the DAVE isn't a whopping 6V rms, it's an even more whopping 12V rms but it comes at the expense of a loss of transparency as there's an extra OP amp in the analog signal path to go balanced.  SE output is 6V rms.
  
 DAVE is SE by design and here is why Rob designed it this way:
  
"Well this is a complex subject, and sometimes a balanced connection does sound better than single ended (SE) - in a pre-power context - but it depends upon the environment, and the pre and power and the interconnect. But the downside of balanced is that you are doubling the number of analogue components in the direct signal path, and this degrades transparency. In my experience every passive component is audible, every metal to metal interface (including solder joints - I once had a lot of fun listening to solder) has an impact - in case of metal/metal interfaces it degrades detail resolution and the perception of depth. So going balanced will have a cost in transparency.
  
In DAC design, going balanced is essential with silicon design; there is simply too much substrate noise and other effects not too. But with discrete DAC's you do not need to worry about this, so going SE on a discrete DAC is possible, and is how all my DAC's are done. But differential operation hides certain problems (notably reference circuit) that has serious SQ effects; so going SE means those problems are exposed, which forces one to solve the issue fundamentally. In short, to make SE work you have to solve many more problems, but the result of solving those problems solves SQ issues than differential operation hides when you do measurements.
  
In the case of Dave, I have gotten state of the art measured performance - distortion harmonics below -150 dB, zero measurable noise floor modulation - and there is no way you could do this with a differential architecture. So it is possible to have better measured performance with SE than differential, but it is a lot harder to do it - indeed, the only way of getting virtually zero distortion and noise floor modulation is SE.  
  
Rob"


----------



## Crgreen

Thanks, that's very helpful. A SE circuit will require an additional conversion stage for the balanced outputs, so I'll stick with SE, but with variable output and the volume cranked up a little.


----------



## gnomen

So if this is the case would we be better to run the DAVE (or the TT) out of the RCA sockets rather than via XLR?


----------



## Crgreen

gnomen said:


> So if this is the case would we be better to run the DAVE (or the TT) out of the RCA sockets rather than via XLR?




That's the conclusion I've drawn, though it will be interesting to make the comparison.


----------



## TheAttorney

How well DAVE performs on RCA or XLR is only half the question. The other half is how well the amp performs with the same configuration. As I had previously stated, I preferred XLR between DAVE and the fully balanced BHSE. Admittedly the makes of cable were different (with the SE cable being more expensive).


----------



## analogmusic

Dear Rob
  
 Hope all is well with you.
  
 If I may ask, why are resistors impossible to match in R2R Dacs?
  
 Im enjoying my Hugo and Mojo every single day.
  
 I played this Sade Album (love Deluxe) on my entry level turntable and then on Hugo
  
 It isn't even funny anymore, the turntable needs to be retired/sold, the Hugo is so superior sonically and musically
  
 Anyone who heard the difference would have had a "jaw dropping" moment when I played it in Hugo.
  
 I cannot imagine how good the Dave is given it has 166,000+ taps and Hugo 26,000+...
  
 Thanks


----------



## Crgreen

theattorney said:


> How well DAVE performs on RCA or XLR is only half the question. The other half is how well the amp performs with the same configuration. As I had previously stated, I preferred XLR between DAVE and the fully balanced BHSE. Admittedly the makes of cable were different (with the SE cable being more expensive).




That's a good point. My preamp and power amp are balanced circuits, so the conversion from SE to balanced will have to take place at some point. The issue is whether that should be with the Dave or preamp. I'll try both.


----------



## romaz

gnomen said:


> So if this is the case would we be better to run the DAVE (or the TT) out of the RCA sockets rather than via XLR?


 
 From a "best practices" standpoint, SE out from the DAVE would be ideal but as has been stated, some amps sound better balanced or are balanced only and so it is for these reasons, probably, that Rob incorporated XLR outputs into the DAVE.  I have not done any careful A/Bing but having used both outputs, I never found myself feeling shortchanged when I used the balanced outputs.  Interestingly, at the Chord room at CES in Las Vegas in January, Chord had the DAVE feeding the large Chord monoblocks which were then driving a pair of Vienna Acoustic speakers and while the Chord monoblocks have both XLR and RCA inputs, Chord chose to connect the DAVE via XLR.


----------



## paul79

Crgreen,
 What preamp do you use?


----------



## Crgreen

paul79 said:


> Crgreen,
> What preamp do you use?




Audio Research Ref 3


----------



## romaz

analogmusic said:


> Dear Rob
> 
> Hope all is well with you.
> 
> If I may ask, why are resistors impossible to match in R2R Dacs?


 
 I will defer to Rob as always but I have my own contribution to make as I used to own a very good R2R DAC, the TotalDac d1-monobloc.  This DAC incorporates 400 Vishay Foil resistors and Vincent Brient, its creator, went out of his way to use the more expensive variety with a very fine tolerance of 0.01%.  Bought in bulk, these resistors sell for about $20 a piece and so for this DAC, the resistors alone cost about $8,000 (a reason why R2R DACs are so expensive).  Obviously, he felt it was important to pay this premium from a SQ standpoint because the Vishay Foil resistors with a lesser tolerance of 0.05% cost 25% less.  He could have gone for the best (0.005% tolerance) but that would have more than doubled the cost to $50 per resistor.  Even at that, this suggests no 2 resistors will be 100% the same.


----------



## Rob Watts

analogmusic said:


> Dear Rob
> 
> Hope all is well with you.
> 
> ...


 
  


romaz said:


> I will defer to Rob as always but I have my own contribution to make as I used to own a very good R2R DAC, the TotalDac d1-monobloc.  This DAC incorporates 400 Vishay Foil resistors and Vincent Brient, its creator, went out of his way to use the more expensive variety with a very fine tolerance of 0.01%.  Bought in bulk, these resistors sell for about $20 a piece and so for this DAC, the resistors alone cost about $8,000 (a reason why R2R DACs are so expensive).  Obviously, he felt it was important to pay this premium from a SQ standpoint because the Vishay Foil resistors with a lesser tolerance of 0.05% cost 25% less.  He could have gone for the best (0.005% tolerance) but that would have more than doubled the cost to $50 per resistor.  Even at that, this suggests no 2 resistors will be 100% the same.


 
  
 Just to give you an idea of the scale of the problem - imagine that we wanted a R2R DAC that could resolve to an accuracy of -350 dB - the performance that I get with Dave's noise shapers, and the spec for which was based on listening tests of depth - then if we want to guarantee -350 dB accuracy then that implies a resistor accuracy of 0.000000000000003%. That's why the idea that you need noise shapers to be that accurate is so crazy - and the implication that the brain can detect this level is also crazy. Indeed, I was actually reluctant to talk about this issue, as the numbers are so tiny. But at the end of the day, I stand by my listening tests, and I have been pleased that other listeners has discovered the same thing about Dave in that it portrays depth very unusually.
  
 But you may argue that there is something odd about noise shaping that does not apply to R2R DAC's in regards to depth - I think not, as I have had un-measurable small signal errors that degrade depth, and all R2R DAC's suffer with measurable small signal distortion - but there is another way of looking at the problem. One of the interesting things I got out of the Dave project was reducing high order distortion products and finding out how very audible they were. To match Dave's THD performance you would need resistors of 0.000003% tolerance.
  
 Now whether you need  0.000000000000003% or 0.000003% they are both not possible to achieve. Even if you could match those levels, by hand selection, you could never guarantee matching, as resistors naturally drift, and will always have temperature differences, thus changing the value too. Even the PCB tracks would present a problem - 0.000003% for a 1k ohm resistor is 30 thousandth of an ohm - you can't even etch copper to that accuracy! This of course ignores the switching components which is impossible to match at this kind of level, let alone the problems of getting the timing to be accurate enough. For  0.000003% accuracy, with a 16FS R2R DAC, you would need a timing accuracy of 40 femto S applied to the clock, clock tree, and all of the switching components together. To give you a scale of the problem, the best silicon device I worked on had 4,000 fS accuracy from switching element to switching element, and this used FETs that were very much faster than the FET that has a low enough RDS on for a R2R DAC.  Indeed, you would need to place all components to a 6 micron accuracy so they all had the same delay. This of course ignores the fact that 16FS from a timing of transients accuracy is not good enough either.
  
 This gives you a tiny flavor of the challenges that one has in designing R2R DAC's, and why it would be impossible to match Dave's performance with them.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

shuttlepod said:


> If this is the case, one must assume that the perception of depth is strongly correlated with the evolutionary survival of the species. In other words, the human ability to pinpoint sound at varying degrees of depth must have evolved into a finely honed ability because it enhanced our ability to detect threats to our survival over the millennia.


 
  
 This post set me thinking actually. Evolution wise, we have evolved as hunters (eyes in front of head - prey have eyes towards the sides) and for prey in terms of depth you only need to know if a sound is close (run) or far away (be prepared to run). But for a hunter, locating prey audibly to a precision of a foot (which is the limits I think depth applies to) could be the difference to eating or starving. So the evolutionary pressure to evolve auditory placement accuracy is very strong.
  
 Rob


----------



## agisthos

rob watts said:


> I am sure there is some compromise in using a linear power supply - in fact I know there are compromises.
> 
> Perhaps I should explain.
> 
> ...


 
  
 It would be great if you could elaborate more on this Rob.
  
 I have done a lot of upgrades from SMPS to linear power supplies for DAC's, servers, and even video blu-ray transports. I have found that while linear power supplies can be better in some aspects, in other aspects they are not. It's very hard to put my finger on what exactly is going on, especially when something gets better and worse at the same time. The trial and error tinkerer method fails in this instance.


----------



## analogmusic

Thank you Rob for this explanation. Much appreciated. Counting the days till Munich to get the news of this new amplifier from Chord.


----------



## brightonjel

This is an incredibly interesting area of research.  A lot has been discovered, but we still have much to learn about how the brain processes sound.  Work on brain processing of visual images indicates that evolution has driven us towards an optimizing model, tailored to allow us to quickly and efficiently process things that occur in our environment, an approach that can be modeled well via a series of filters.  Similarly, evidence is mounting that audio processing follows a similar pattern (see: http://www.cogsci.ucsd.edu/~ajyu/Teaching/Cogs160_sp10/Week6/lewicki02.pdf for just one example if you are interested.)  Researchers are having some success in modeling auditory process through the application of filters targeted to allow the efficient processing of sounds in three classes: environmental (rustling leaves, etc.), animal sounds, and speech.  Some filters are time sensitive, allowing us to discriminate location for example, where others are frequency sensitive.
  
 Wherever this research leads us (and I'm not at all active in this area so no tricky questions please!) then one thing is clear: viewing an audio system through the lens of just frequency response is fundamentally flawed.  Rob's work is yet another confirmation that many aspects of how we perceive sounds have yet to be fully understood and modeled, but we already know that human hearing is nonlinear in its sensitivity to both time and frequency information, that both of these dimensions are critical to our perception of sound (though to a different degree based on the nature of the sound), and that the auditory system is both specialized and optimized.
  
 We are indeed a remarkable animal!


----------



## bigfatpaulie

brightonjel said:


> We are indeed a remarkable animal!


 
  
 What's interesting is that, as far as our hearing goes, we really aren't.
  
 Good thing bats and the likes aren't audiophiles...  But back to the DAVE...


----------



## Mython

> Originally Posted by *bigfatpaulie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Nope.
  
 That really isn't interesting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
  
 Seriously, though, much of human hearing is dependent upon the brain (and possibly even the 'soul/spirit', too, if you'll forgive me getting a little theological, only to make the point that human hearing is more complex than we yet understand).
  
 Bats may have superb ultrasonic hearing, but (who knows?) they might not do much else with it, other than echo-locate 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 For all we know, humans might have a far-richer experience of what they hear than bats perhaps do with what they hear. For example, when I hear some pieces of music, it evokes an emotional response in me so strong that it literally affects the energy in my entire body, and/or moves me to tears - I am not speaking figuratively. I wonder how many bats ever experience that? It would be difficult to definitively delineate where the soundwave, the perception _*of*_ it, and the generation of an emotional and/or bodily energetic response _*to*_ it, each begin and end, in relation to one another. Hearing can be a multi-faceted thing!
  
  
  
*Still saving for my DAVE...*
  
 .


----------



## romaz

For those of you interested in a magnificent recording that absolutely shines on the DAVE, consider Magnificat which you can download on 2L's website.
  

  
 It was recorded in DXD (24/352.8) in 2014 and is an example of a recording that should be superior on the DAVE vs vinyl.  You can download the original DXD version for about $30 and is stunning in its presentation of piano, string orchestra, organ and female chorus.  Even if you are not a fan of this type of music, it's hard not to appreciate the qualities of a recording like this.  It was recorded in the magnificent Nidaros Cathedral in Trondheim, Norway.  While impressive even on ordinary playback equipment, on the DAVE it is all the more superb.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> For those of you interested in a magnificent recording that absolutely shines on the DAVE, consider Magnificat which you can download on 2L's website.
> 
> 
> 
> It was recorded in DXD (24/352.8) in 2014 and is an example of a recording that should be superior on the DAVE vs vinyl.  You can download the original DXD version for about $30 and is stunning in its presentation of piano, string orchestra, organ and female chorus.  Even if you are not a fan of this type of music, it's hard not to appreciate the qualities of a recording like this.  It was recorded in the magnificent Nidaros Cathedral in Trondheim, Norway.  While impressive even on ordinary playback equipment, on the DAVE it is all the more superb.


 
  
 Hey Doc,
  
 Can you post the link for this?
 My black Dave arriving Tuesday.
 !!!!!!
  
 Paul


----------



## Mython

paulchiu said:


> Can you post the link for this?


 
  
  
 http://www.2l.no/pages/album/106.html


----------



## paulchiu

mython said:


> http://www.2l.no/pages/album/106.html


 
  
 Wait. I don't have an universal player for the bluray audio.
 Would audirvana or media center play the first part (the download)?


----------



## Mython

paulchiu said:


> mython said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.2l.no/pages/album/106.html
> ...


 
  
 Why not try playing some free test-tracks, first?
  
 http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> Wait. I don't have an universal player for the bluray audio.
> Would audirvana or media center play the first part (the download)?


 
 I can assure you that the stereo DXD version is captivating and immersive.  It is an engineering masterpiece where the orchestral players move about several times over the course of the recording.  The depth and the layering of detail that the DAVE portrays so well sounds like surround sound on this recording.


----------



## romaz

While not as emotive as Magnificat, "Reflections, also from 2L, is another DXD recording worth your $30 and presented magnificently on the DAVE.  
  

  
  
 This, too, is an engineering marvel and is recorded in 12.1 immersive audio although no less compelling in 2-channel stereo on the DAVE.
  


  
https://shop.klicktrack.com/2l/474969?


----------



## warrior1975

mython said:


> Why not try playing some free test-tracks, first?
> 
> http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html




Thanks, downloading some of those now. Totally forgot about this website. Been over a year since I last tried them.


----------



## gnomen

romaz said:


> For those of you interested in a magnificent recording that absolutely shines on the DAVE, consider Magnificat which you can download on 2L's website.
> 
> 
> 
> It was recorded in DXD (24/352.8) in 2014 and is an example of a recording that should be superior on the DAVE vs vinyl.  You can download the original DXD version for about $30 and is stunning in its presentation of piano, string orchestra, organ and female chorus.  Even if you are not a fan of this type of music, it's hard not to appreciate the qualities of a recording like this.  It was recorded in the magnificent Nidaros Cathedral in Trondheim, Norway.  While impressive even on ordinary playback equipment, on the DAVE it is all the more superb.


 

 Coincidentally, I downloaded this on Saturday, for playing via my Hugo TT.  It is magnificent: content, performance, sound quality.  Highly recommended here too!


----------



## kkcc

hey guys need your help... I'm done holding onto my wallet and ready to make the jump from Hugo to DAVE.  Unfortunately I had a less than wonderful experience with ordering from the local dealer (which I understand is just starting to carry Chord but their parents don't seem to think much of my local market).  Would have really liked to audition before I buy but with my Hugo and Rob/John's generous sharing I'm ready to buy blind for a first time.
  
 Any recommendation of a reputable seller who might have it in stock?  I'm also considering getting the new spm1050mk2 together with DAVE and legs as a set.  Would appreciate if you can PM me so that we don't derail the DAVE discussion.  
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rkt31

I downloaded many free dxd sample from 2l. frankly speaking while those samples sounded very dynamic and open but samples had a kind of brightness which I have not experienced in some very clean recordings of opus3 records and reference recordings labels. those were not dxd but still sounded so much more realistic and natural. waterlily acoustic's fusion recordings like a meeting by the river, tabula rasa and hollow bamboo are the cleanest I have ever heard.


----------



## paulchiu

rkt31 said:


> I downloaded many free dxd sample from 2l. frankly speaking while those samples sounded very dynamic and open but samples had a kind of brightness which I have not experienced in some very clean recordings of opus3 records and reference recordings labels. those were not dxd but still sounded so much more realistic and natural. waterlily acoustic's fusion recordings like a meeting by the river, tabula rasa and hollow bamboo are the cleanest I have ever heard.


 
  
 can you post links to these natural sounding tracks?
  
 Paul


----------



## Mython

paulchiu said:


> rkt31 said:
> 
> 
> > I downloaded many free dxd sample from 2l. frankly speaking while those samples sounded very dynamic and open but samples had a kind of brightness which I have not experienced in some very clean recordings of opus3 records and reference recordings labels. those were not dxd but still sounded so much more realistic and natural. waterlily acoustic's fusion recordings like a meeting by the river, tabula rasa and hollow bamboo are the cleanest I have ever heard.
> ...


 
  
  
 http://waterlilyacoustics.com/main.htm
  
*Ry Cooder, V.M. Bhatt — A Meeting by the River*
*Béla Fleck, V. M. Bhatt, Jie-Bing Chen — Tabula Rasa*
*Ronu Majumdar, Ry Cooder, Jon Hassell, Abhijit Banarjee — Hollow Bamboo*


----------



## rkt31

@paulchiu, these are few very good recordings of opus3 links . http://www.jazzsound.pl/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=3878   ,  http://www.amazon.com/Tribute-Young-Louis-Barnard-Swedish/dp/B0000E64YN,    http://www.amazon.com/Tiny-Island-TINY-ISLAND/dp/B0000E64YK


----------



## rkt31

has anybody used Dave with benchmark ahb2 for speaker set up ? I remember one member using Hugo with benchmark amp . I also use Hugo with benchmark power amp and the benchmark brings out all qualities of Hugo .


----------



## Samuel Snoopy

I have ordered both, but need to wait for one more month for Dave and one more week for AHB2.


----------



## drdkey

I am completely changing my system from a Devialet 250 and using Mac mini music server to Chord Dave > Luxman 700 amp > Sonic Transporter AP > microRendu > Roon. Chord Dave arriving next week and very excited. I am straight 2 channel for now. Anyone using a Luxman 700?


----------



## yellowblue

drdkey, I see that you have a micro Rendu in your chain. Will be interesting to hear if it sounds different than the Sonicorbiter SE with the Dave (using Roon). Romaz promised to write about that when he gets his own micro Rendu.


----------



## rkt31

samuel snoopy said:


> I have ordered both, but need to wait for one more month for Dave and one more week for AHB2.


 
 great, waiting for the impressions of the combo. which speakers will you be using ? i use benchmark amp with the low gain setting and it gives plenty of output with hugo. with dave the output will double if you use xlr out. so even with low gain and bigger speakers there will be plenty of loudness.


----------



## Samuel Snoopy

rkt31 said:


> great, waiting for the impressions of the combo. which speakers will you be using ? i use benchmark amp with the low gain setting and it gives plenty of output with hugo. with dave the output will double if you use xlr out. so even with low gain and bigger speakers there will be plenty of loudness.




I use KEF new Ref. One which is just suit my small listening room.


----------



## shuttlepod

yellowblue said:


> drdkey, I see that you have a micro Rendu in your chain. Will be interesting to hear if it sounds different than the Sonicorbiter SE with the Dave (using Roon). Romaz promised to write about that when he gets his own micro Rendu.


 

 I'm in the same camp as yellowblue -- waiting to see how people like the microRendu, particularly those with a DAVE. Will the DAVE be immune or mostly immune to the benefits of the microRendu? Would the SonicOrbiter SE be just as good with a DAVE? I'm willing to wait and see what people think . . .


----------



## paulchiu

shuttlepod said:


> I'm in the same camp as yellowblue -- waiting to see how people like the microRendu, particularly those with a DAVE. Will the DAVE be immune or mostly immune to the benefits of the microRendu? Would the SonicOrbiter SE be just as good with a DAVE? I'm willing to wait and see what people think . . .


 
  
 I will be testing my Dave once it arrives today with the Sonore Microrendu as well as Uptone Audio Regen and other third party enhancements.
 Trying is one thing, but I am not expecting any improvement for the Dave just as I have not heard any on my Nagra HD DAC with these enhancers or real exotic USB cables.
  
 Paul


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> I will be testing my Dave once it arrives today with the Sonore Microrendu as well as Uptone Audio Regen and other third party enhancements.
> Trying is one thing, but I am not expecting any improvement for the Dave just as I have not heard any on my Nagra HD DAC with these enhancers or real exotic USB cables.
> 
> Paul


 
 Congrats, Paul!  Looking forward to your impressions.  My microRendu ships today as well.  The microRendu already incorporates an "improved" version of the Regen and according to John Swanson, creator of the microRendu and Regen, adding a Regen to the microRendu will result in no further benefit.  The microRendu supposedly benefits greatly from a really good PSU, not necessarily a quiet PSU but one with low impedance that can deliver large amounts of transient current very rapidly.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> Congrats, Paul!  Looking forward to your impressions.  My microRendu ships today as well.  The microRendu already incorporates an "improved" version of the Regen and according to John Swanson, creator of the microRendu and Regen, adding a Regen to the microRendu will result in no further benefit.  The microRendu supposedly benefits greatly from a really good PSU, not necessarily a quiet PSU but one with low impedance that can deliver large amounts of transient current very rapidly.


 
  
 Roy,
  
 Thanks,
 What power supply will you be using with Sonore MicroRendu?  (this thing sounds like a Sith Lord)
  
 Paul


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> Roy,
> 
> Thanks,
> What power supply will you be using with Sonore MicroRendu?  (this thing sounds like a Sith Lord)
> ...


 
 The force is supposed to be strong with John Swanson's upcoming "mystery" supply but that won't be ready for a few months and will supposedly be fairly inexpensive.  I have gone ahead and ordered John's JS-2 PSU which he believes will also be ideal (just more expensive).


----------



## shuttlepod

Those of us who have not ordered a microRendu or SonicOrbiter would love to know all of your impressions (Roy, Paul, drdkey, and any others). We would especially be interested in the microRendu vs. the SonicOrbiter and vs. a noisy laptop or other standard computer. And, of course, what effect, if any, various power supplies have on the microRendu's overall performance. Based on the impressions of the early testers of the microRendu (including Chris Connaker), it almost surely makes a big positive difference with almost all dacs out there. But what about DAVE??


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> Those of us who have not ordered a microRendu or SonicOrbiter would love to know all of your impressions (Roy, Paul, drdkey, and any others). We would especially be interested in the microRendu vs. the SonicOrbiter and vs. a noisy laptop or other standard computer. And, of course, what effect, if any, various power supplies have on the microRendu's overall performance. Based on the impressions of the early testers of the microRendu (including Chris Connaker), it almost surely makes a big positive difference with almost all dacs out there. But what about DAVE??


 
 I am curious myself, Jon.  I will happily report.


----------



## Sonic77

Just received my shipping notice for the microRendu, I will also give my impressions with that and the Dave Dac. I will be using the ifi 9v plug for now and may upgrade to another power source depending on the reviews of those power sources.
 We can use our servers (Caps v3 Zuma) with the microRendu, so I will do that, along with testing it out with my mac mini, and Logitech Squeezebox touch.


----------



## romaz

As some of you are aware, while at AXPONA in Chicago a few weeks ago, with DAVE in tow, I made a few discoveries that were surprising but none more surprising than what I heard in the Devialet room.  It was in this room that I had my first opportunity to hear a music source (Aurender N10) connected to my DAVE via AES/EBU.  Using a Nordost Valhalla AES/EBU cable and compared against my Curious USB cable, USB sounded more compressed or "closed in."  It led me to wonder whether the USB output of that Aurender was somehow faulty or whether AES/EBU is just potentially better on the DAVE with the right source and the right cable.  I was unable to test this theory in a different room the following day with an Aurender W20 because that dealer didn't have an AES/EBU cable on hand but that significant difference has continued to haunt me.
  

  
  
 I requested an N10 for evaluation in my home once again and it arrived last week.  In the photo above, you will notice my tiny Sonicorbiter SE sitting on top of the Aurender.  I have thought about ECWL's comments that perhaps having both AES/EBU and USB cables plugged into the DAVE at the same time might have allowed RF to creep into the DAVE via the AES/EBU cable and pollute the USB output and so in my evaluation, I made sure only one cable was connected at a time.  I also ordered a trial of what may be one of the finest AES/EBU cables in existence, the new High Fidelity Ultimate Reference ($10,000 list price) which is based on High Fidelity's magnetic conduction technology, a technology I have come to regard very highly.  Because I had found the Clarity "Natural" USB cable that I heard at AXPONA to be superior to my Curious USB cable, I requested this USB cable also for evaluation.  Unfortunately, the "Natural" (MSRP $1,200) wasn't available but the dealer went ahead and sent me the "Natural's" baby brother, the "Organic" USB cable (MSRP $500). 
  
 The verdict?  Happily, I can tell you that as I go from one connection to the other, I am hearing* no *compression with the USB output.  In fact, even with the High Fidelity AES/EBU cable, I am hearing no difference between either input.  They both sound excellent.  Is this because at AXPONA, I had both USB and AES/EBU cable plugged in simultaneously?  I'm not sure so I decided to plug both cables in at the same time and it didn't seem to make a difference although this may be due to the excellent characteristics of the High Fidelity AES/EBU cable.  Could this be due to something the Devialets were doing?  Again, I'm not sure but in my system, AES/EBU carries no advantage.  Because of its disadvantages (max throughput of 24/192 PCM), it would appear to me that USB is the way to go.
  
 Now how about Aurender N10 vs Sonicorbiter?  At AXPONA, it was clear to me and two other people that its more expensive brother, the W20 edged my Windows laptop by about 10-15% in terms of clarity and more open soundstage while the Clarity "Natural" USB cable added another 5-7% improvement over my Curious USB cable.  Against the Sonicorbiter, the Aurender N10 once again represented an improvement by about 10%.  There is a bit better clarity and the layering of detail is subtlety but clearly better.  The Clarity "Organic" cable bested my Curious USB cable by about 5-7%.  Small improvements for sure but consistent and readily identifiable.  Is the improvement that comes with the Aurender N10 worth its $8,000 asking price.  I will leave that for others to decide but for me, it is not.  I am impressed enough, however, with the improvement I am seeing with the $500 Clarity Organic USB cable to pursue this issue further.  I have requested the Organic's bigger brother, the Natural ($1200), to be sent to me once it is available next week.  I also have on order a Transparent Premium USB cable ($600) and Audience AU24SE USB cable ($850) coming in for comparison.  As I am now fully committed to USB and the microRendu, I am motivated to get the best USB cable I can find.  On an even more exciting note, I will have available for testing a USB prototype device from High Fidelity in the coming month.  This will be an "in-series" device that I can plug my USB cable into (similar to a USB Regen) that will incorporate High Fidelity's magnetic conduction therapy.  If this brings about any of the benefits I have heard from Rick Schultz's other High Fidelity cables, it will be exciting times for USB for sure.


----------



## shuttlepod

Thanks, Roy, as always, for your thoughtful and detailed comparisons. As you know, a good number of folks around here rely on you for doing gear comparisons that we may not be able to do. I, for one, am happy that you found no sonic advantage to AES/EBU in your system. I'd rather stick with USB. 
  
 I am less happy that the Aurender N10 gives an audible improvement, but I can forego the relatively small improvement and save $8k. I will look forward to hearing your impressions of various USB cables (and the intriguing High Fidelity USB option), especially in combination with the Sonore products. I'm still waiting for my DAVE to arrive -- should be another two to three weeks.


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> Thanks, Roy, as always, for your thoughtful and detailed comparisons. As you know, a good number of folks around here rely on you for doing gear comparisons that we may not be able to do. I, for one, am happy that you found no sonic advantage to AES/EBU in your system. I'd rather stick with USB.
> 
> I am less happy that the Aurender N10 gives an audible improvement, but I can forego the relatively small improvement and save $8k. I will look forward to hearing your impressions of various USB cables (and the intriguing High Fidelity USB option), especially in combination with the Sonore products. I'm still waiting for my DAVE to arrive -- should be another two to three weeks.


 
 Thanks, Jon.  What I am hoping is that the microRendu, for a relatively small investment, will provide the same uptick in SQ as the Aurenders.  Based on the thoughtfulness of its design, I don't see why it won't.  It is my expectation that it will be the finest USB digital source you can buy regardless of cost.  I hope I am not disappointed.  In case you haven't seen it, Chris Connaker at CA recently reviewed it.  He had previously indicated the W20 was the finest digital source he had heard and now he is suggesting the microRendu is:
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/698-sonore-microrendu-review-part-1/


----------



## shuttlepod

Exactly my thoughts, Roy. I would pay the microRendu price for a nice uptick in SQ. Given that the Aurender N10 is an improvement, I would expect the little microRendu to also be an improvement. All indications are that the power supply matters. If there is an improvement, it will be interesting to see where the seriously diminishing returns come in with various power supplies. Ultimately, that may come down to budget and perceived SQ improvements. And yes, Connaker gave us quite the tease with his "Part 1," didn't he?


----------



## yamuling

Any $500-1500 powercable suggest for DAVE？


----------



## paulchiu

yamuling said:


> Any $500-1500 powercable suggest for DAVE？


 
  
 Give the old 14 or 16 gauge stock cable a try. many have said fancy cords really doesn't improve that much with the Dave.  If after a few weeks, you want to explore try dealers that offer loaners.
 Some of these could be Audience, AQ, Shunyata, or one of the catalog 9 gauge fat cords.
  
 Paul


----------



## paulchiu

Waited all day for my Dave to arrive and this:
  


 [tr] [th]Location[/th] [th]Date[/th] [th]Local Time[/th] [th]Activity[/th] [/tr] [tr] [td] [/td] [td]05/03/2016[/td] [td]10:30 P.M.[/td] [td]Severe weather conditions have delayed delivery. / We’re working to deliver your package as soon as possible.[/td] [/tr]   
 i hope it is not floating inside some UPS truck in the Carolinas.


----------



## shuttlepod

yamuling said:


> Any $500-1500 powercable suggest for DAVE？


 

 The LP version of the Audience AU24 SE cable worked well for me during my two-week audition of the DAVE. $1080 for six feet but you can often find them as show demos or on the used market. Audience power cables generally aren't in the upper tier in terms of cost but compete there in terms of quality.


----------



## rkt31

samuel snoopy said:


> I use KEF new Ref. One which is just suit my small listening room.


 
 great, i use kef r300 with foam bungs and monitor audio rs12w sub. i like the kef sound specially concentric drivers which helps in improving the imaging !


----------



## yamuling

Thanks all. I tried some quite expensive powercords but found DAVE quite like cable with comfortable and mild characteristic. Happily with Naim cheap cable but deciding change to what.


----------



## romaz

yamuling said:


> Any $500-1500 powercable suggest for DAVE？


 
 It's funny you should ask because for the past week, I've been testing and comparing power chords with the DAVE.  
  

  
 As it has been suggested, if you're mains power is reasonably clean, you may not notice a huge improvement from the stock mains cable compared to a much more expensive "audiophile" cable.  Indeed, when I first had the DAVE in my home for audition last November, the dealer sent me home with a $10,000 Nordost Odin mains cable hoping that he could sell me this cable.  What I found was that compared to the stock mains cable as well as one of my Audience AU24SE cables, I was unable to tell much difference, at least not significant enough to ever consider something like the Nordost Odin and so in my mind and in my system where I have a dedicated 15 amp line with fairly clean power, I had convinced myself that the power chord doesn't matter much.
  
 With more experience, my opinion has changed somewhat.  I still believe the DAVE is pretty well isolated against bad power, probably as good as the best audio components I've owned over the years.  Rob had inidicated that he isolated the DAVE well even against the deleterious effects of its own switching power supply and this is a claim that's easy to believe once you hear the midnight black background and electrifying dynamics of the DAVE even when connected to it's stock "Made in China" 18g mains cable.  Upon further questioning, however, Rob indicated that if I was going to target a better power chord that would make a difference with the DAVE, it should be a power chord that specifically addressed RF.  Here is what Rob had to say recently about RF:
  
"But RF noise is a pesky thing - it's like a fungal infection, impossible to get rid of completely."
  
 And so I have come to the conclusion that if something is going to affect the DAVE adversely, it's not going to be jitter (I have thoroughly convinced myself of this), it's going to be RF, either from the source or from the AC line and so I decided recently to revisit power chords and target those that specifically were designed to target RF.  As starters, some of you already know that I incorporate in my system a Son of Q balanced power supply by Equi=Tech which is basically a transformer-based line conditioner that does a nice job of keeping my entire system quiet.  For this series of tests, I decided to test chords without the Son of Q to see how well these chords would stand on their own (plugged directly into the wall).  Even without the Son of Q, I will re-iterate that my AC line is of pretty good quality and so if you're AC line is dirtier than mine, your findings may be different.  Here are my unblinded findings:
  
 1)  Stock mains cable -- as above, if this is the only cable you ever heard with the DAVE, you would probably already assume the DAVE was connected to an expensive mains cable because it sounds just fine with this cable.
  
 2)  TG Audio SLVR ($550) -- this is my old stand by and I will never sell it.  It was made by the late Bob Crump, a no-nonsense cable builder.  It is a wonderful general purpose audiophile cable that can fit in capably in a pinch just about anywhere.  It used to be my go-to cable for a lot of gear over the years.  Compared to the stock mains cable, I can detect no difference.
  
 3)  Audience AU24SE LP and MP ($1080-1175) -- this has been my go-to cable over the past year for my digital gear and I own several.  They have no special RF filtering abilities but they do everything well and was the first cable I felt comfortable replacing my TG Audio SLVR with.  They utilize OHNO continuous cast (OCC) grade copper.  With my previous TotalDac system, I was unable to find a better mains cable than this.  With the DAVE and compared against the stock mains cable, there is a more relaxed quality to the presentation, slightly smoother but I will admit that the improvement is subtle.  Is it worth spending $1k for this cable over the stock cable?  I don't think I would do it if I was starting from scratch.
  
 4)  JPS Digital AC ($400) -- this is the first "digital" cable I bought years ago and is designed specifically for digital front ends like DACs, CD players and music servers.  It has a ferrite shield designed to minimize RF.  This cable was upgraded to the AC-X years ago and so the technology in this cable has been improved upon.  For the price asked, it did a nice job with my CD player over the years.  On the DAVE and compared against the stock mains cable, there is a slightly smoother quality to the presentation, along the lines of what I get from the Audience AU24SE.  For the money, this isn't a bad choice but the improvement is subtle.
  
 5)  Digital Dynamics Challenger AE15 ($3,500) -- this is a cable specifically designed for digital front ends.  It is designed to handle no more than about 60 watts.  It incorporates a battery-operated RF shield and with the shield powered on, the music becomes slightly more "forward" sounding.  Some prefer the more laid back sound with the shield turned off.  I prefer it with the shield on.  This chord has a slightly blacker background and punchier dynamics compared to the stock cable.  Is it worth $3,500 with the DAVE?  No, but I found a used one for 1/3 the price so I bought it.  It has been my reference mains cable with the DAVE until now.
  
 6)  Shunyata Sigma Digital ($2,138)  -- this is another cable that is specifically designed for digital front ends and incorporates a variety of novel techniques designed by Caelin Gabriel to fight RF.  It has been billed as a power cable with a power conditioner built in and I would agree with this description.  Compared against the stock mains cable and against every other mains cable here, it has the smoothest presentation, very pleasant and airy, however, upon closer scrutiny, this comes at the expense of resolution compared against the Challenger AE15.  For those looking for a pleasant laid-back presentation as you relax by the fireplace, I can't think of a better sounding chord.  If you have a "bright"component that you would like to tame, this is probably the chord for you.  If you have horrible line noise and plan to use no additional line conditioner, this chord will probably do a better job than most chords including the Challenger AE15.
  
 7)  High Fidelity CT-1 ($2,000) -- those that read about my adventures at AXPONA recently know that I was introduced to a set of RCA adapters made by High Fidelity Cables that utterly transformed my system to another level.  The impact of these adapters, based on magnetic conduction technology patented by Rick Schultz, was so otherworldly that I knew I needed to explore their products further.  When you look at this chord, the first thing you notice are the three white jacketed conductors (positive, negative and ground) that separate the two large magnetic ends.  Unlike traditional mains cables that have copper or silver conductors, the CT-1 power chord utilizes a proprietary alloy with a specific resistance designed to facilitate the transfer of electrical energy by using a controlled magnetic field.  It incorporates a dual shielded coaxial design with extremely high rejection capability and when combined with its patented Magnetic Conduction ability, it results in superior filtering of both RF and stray magnetic fields.  Equally important, if I have understood Rick Schultz properly, what is happening with his technology is it concentrates the electrons to the inner most core of the cable and away from the outer edges which minimizes "skin" effects that would negatively impact phase and timing. 
  
 So how does it sound?  In the past, I have categorized chords as being capable of either producing a very transparent sound resulting in speed, resolution, tight bass and extended highs OR a fuller, more musical sound with a rich midrange.  Usually going in one direction takes you away from the other.  With the CT-1, you get both.  This is the most transparent, most resolving, most dynamic, quietest yet most musical power chord I have yet to hear and it elevates the DAVE to a higher level of realism.  During this evaluation, I also had the opportunity to test this chord along with the High Fidelity MC6-Hemisphere ($2,800), a non current-limiting line conditioner based on the exact same magnetic conduction technology and when combined with any of the above power chords, it resulted in a very noticeable increase in the weight and clarity of the sound but when combined with the CT-1, it is simply breathtaking.  If you are looking for a pleasant and laid back presentation as you relax by the fireplace, I still believe your best bet is the Shunyata but if you are looking to experience that "artist in the room" presentation, I have yet to hear anything that even remotely comes close to the combination of the CT-1 and MC6-Hemisphere.


----------



## paulchiu

Roy,
  
 Just adding 2 bits to your wonderful power-cable piece.
 The sound from the Shunyata Sigma Analog (2495 1.75m) is better in terms of resolution versus the digital when using with my MSB Platinum DAC 4, Nagra HD DAC and Simaudio 430 HAD.  I suspect this maybe the same with the Chord Dave.
 Why an analog power cord for a DAC versus the digital version?  I was told by a few top level Shunyata representatives, Caelin and their Sales manager that many dealers and customers prefer the analog cable sound over the digital cable when using with DAC's.
 They said _*:"We recommend the Sigma Analog because the DAC, although digital, is analog out."*_
  
 I heard the same with the Chord dealer who sold me the Dave.
  
 Of course, I confirmed it with my own ears.
 I now have 6 of the Shunyata Sigma Analog power cables.  And a single Shunyata Sigma Digital version for my server.
  
 The other bit is that I am surprised the Dave came with an 18 gauge wire.  Ouch.
  
 Paul


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> Roy,
> 
> Just adding 2 bits to your wonderful power-cable piece.
> The sound from the Shunyata Sigma Analog (2495 1.75m) is better in terms of resolution versus the digital when using with my MSB Platinum DAC 4, Nagra HD DAC and Simaudio 430 HAD.  I suspect this maybe the same with the Chord Dave.
> ...


 
 Thanks, Paul.  I will defer to your expertise when it comes to the Shunyata.


----------



## rkt31

furutech one of the few companies making occ copper cable and supplies to other brands . readymade cable brands simply put a jacket most of the times. I am using their base occ power cable made from bulk cable. with plugs it costed me about $300 and it did make a lot of difference. the sound of my amp is now much smoother and airy. IMHO their totl bulk cable with furutech plugs can beat much more expensive power chords.


----------



## JaZZ

paulchiu said:


> Waited all day for my Dave to arrive and this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sorry for you, Paul! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But in the end all will be good.


----------



## isquirrel

romaz said:


> As some of you are aware, while at AXPONA in Chicago a few weeks ago, with DAVE in tow, I made a few discoveries that were surprising but none more surprising than what I heard in the Devialet room.  It was in this room that I had my first opportunity to hear a music source (Aurender N10) connected to my DAVE via AES/EBU.  Using a Nordost Valhalla AES/EBU cable and compared against my Curious USB cable, USB sounded more compressed or "closed in."  It led me to wonder whether the USB output of that Aurender was somehow faulty or whether AES/EBU is just potentially better on the DAVE with the right source and the right cable.  I was unable to test this theory in a different room the following day with an Aurender W20 because that dealer didn't have an AES/EBU cable on hand but that significant difference has continued to haunt me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Try the Transparent AES and USB cables Roy, you won't regret it. The Premium USB is $600 USD and its easily the best USB cable I have heard. They have a loaner program so you should be covered.


----------



## isquirrel

Good evening guys, listening to the soundtrack from Sicario, its intense, dark and brooding. Perfect material for a late night listening session. 
  
​Its on Qobuz and Tidal http://listen.tidal.com/album/50958085


----------



## romaz

isquirrel said:


> Try the Transparent AES and USB cables Roy, you won't regret it. The Premium USB is $600 USD and its easily the best USB cable I have heard. They have a loaner program so you should be covered.


 
 Thanks, Simon.  Based on your previous recommendation, I have the Transparent Premium USB already on its way in.  The Audience AU24SE USB comes in today.  As for AES, I've satisfied my curiosity enough to know I will be staying with USB.


----------



## romaz

rkt31 said:


> furutech one of the few companies making occ copper cable and supplies to other brands . readymade cable brands simply put a jacket most of the times. I am using their base occ power cable made from bulk cable. with plugs it costed me about $300 and it did make a lot of difference. the sound of my amp is now much smoother and airy. IMHO their totl bulk cable with furutech plugs can beat much more expensive power chords.


 
 I'm a big fan of Furutech as well, especially their plugs and receptacles.  The High Fidelity MC6-Hemisphere I am testing is outfitted with 3 GTX-D (R) receptacles.  I have decided to order one and it will be outfitted with the newer GTX-D NCF receptacles.  I have not tried their cables.


----------



## shuttlepod

romaz said:


> So how does it sound?  In the past, I have categorized chords as being capable of either producing a very transparent sound resulting in speed, resolution, tight bass and extended highs OR a fuller, more musical sound with a rich midrange.  Usually going in one direction takes you away from the other.  With the CT-1, you get both.  This is the most transparent, most resolving, most dynamic, quietest yet most musical power chord I have yet to hear and it elevates the DAVE to a higher level of realism.  During this evaluation, I also had the opportunity to test this chord along with the High Fidelity MC6-Hemisphere ($2,800), a non current-limiting line conditioner based on the exact same magnetic conduction technology and when combined with any of the above power chords, it resulted in a very noticeable increase in the weight and clarity of the sound but when combined with the CT-1, it is simply breathtaking.  If you are looking for a pleasant and laid back presentation as you relax by the fireplace, I still believe your best bet is the Shunyata but if you are looking to experience that "artist in the room" presentation, I have yet to hear anything that even remotely comes close to the combination of the CT-1 and MC6-Hemisphere.


 
  
 Roy:  I don't suppose you have tested the High Fidelity Cables MC 0.5 Magnetic Wave Guide? This is the little unit that you plug in to an unused outlet in your wall or power conditioner and that is supposed to give you some of the benefits of the power cords. These are much less expensive than the HFC power cords ($299 or less per unit if you order more). I may give this a try and see what happens.


----------



## paulchiu

isquirrel said:


> Good evening guys, listening to the soundtrack from Sicario, its intense, dark and brooding. Perfect material for a late night listening session.
> 
> ​Its on Qobuz and Tidal http://listen.tidal.com/album/50958085


 
  
 SImon,
 Which version?  2 channel CD or 7.1 blu-ray?


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> Roy:  I don't suppose you have tested the High Fidelity Cables MC 0.5 Magnetic Wave Guide? This is the little unit that you plug in to an unused outlet in your wall or power conditioner and that is supposed to give you some of the benefits of the power cords. These are much less expensive than the HFC power cords ($299 or less per unit if you order more). I may give this a try and see what happens.


 
 I have one MC-0.5 with me now.  It adds to the impact of everything but by itself, it doesn't have near the impact of the CT-1 or the MC6-Hemisphere.  I have the MC-0.5 plugged into a spare receptacle on the Hemisphere.  I will request a couple more to fill the other unused receptacles and gauge their cumulative impact.  It's clear that the more magnets, the better and with enough of these MC-0.5s, it's possible this would be more cost effective than buying their next level of power chord.  Of interest, you can find High Fidelity gear on the used market and as I have queried some of these folks as to why they're selling, without exception, all have told me that they have been so pleased with the product that they are selling to upgrade to the next level.


----------



## shuttlepod

romaz said:


> I have one MC-0.5 with me now.  It adds to the impact of everything but by itself, it doesn't have near the impact of the CT-1 or the MC6-Hemisphere.  I have the MC-0.5 plugged into a spare receptacle on the Hemisphere.  I will request a couple more to fill the other unused receptacles and gauge their cumulative impact.  It's clear that the more magnets, the better and with enough of these MC-0.5s, it's possible this would be more cost effective than buying their next level of power chord.  Of interest, you can find High Fidelity gear on the used market and as I have queried some of these folks as to why they're selling, without exception, all have told me that they have been so pleased with the product that they are selling to upgrade to the next level.


 

 Roy, you are a one-man audition factory. Thanks!


----------



## Articnoise

romaz said:


>


 
  

 Thanks, Roy for your detailed comparisons on various equipment.

  

 I don’t have the Dave and have not test against any real top of the line power cords at home. With that said I have 2 LessLoss DFPC Signatures and they are really nice IMO, especially considering what they cost. Louis Motek have focused much on skin-filtering and HF noise in his cables and conditioner. From your description of the Shunyata Sigma Digital I would think that the DFPC Signatures share some main sound characteristics. 

  

http://www.lessloss.com/dfpc-series-p-213.html


----------



## romaz

articnoise said:


> Thanks, Roy for your detailed comparisons on various equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Interesting technology that's built into their cables, Abbe.  Their "original" line isn't very expensive and their "reference" is in line with what the Shunyatas cost.
  
 Here's another interesting option I would like to try as well.  These Equi=Core mains cables by Core Power Technologies have built-in balanced power conditioning and aren't very expensive.  Reviews are good:  http://www.corepowertechnologies.com/


----------



## TheAttorney

romaz said:


> What I am hoping is that the microRendu, for a relatively small investment, will provide the same uptick in SQ as the Aurenders.  Based on the thoughtfulness of its design, I don't see why it won't.  It is my expectation that* it will be the finest USB digital source* you can buy regardless of cost.
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/698-sonore-microrendu-review-part-1/


 
 Please excuse my lack of experience of networking/streamer technology, but am I right in thinking that the microRendu is not a Source as such, more of a conditioner/converter between the actual source and the DAC?
  
 I.e, forgetting about the internet for a moment, you will still need a PC with Roon or HPQ etc, with internal disc drives or connection to a NAS. Or a dedicated server with the same storage requirements. And all these sources can already connect to DAVE directly, typically via USB. So so the only purpose of the microRendu is to clean up the source connection, like a posh version of Regen.
  
 Have I missed something?


----------



## brightonjel

Since I am sitting here listening to the microRendu right now (mine arrived at noon today) then let me have a go at this:
 - DAVE can be driven from multiple sources, but the USB input on any DAC is becoming the standard
 - any device that can output audio over USB can most likely drive DAVE, given the right software player is in place (e.g. Roon, JRiver, HQPlayer, Audirvana etc.)
 - many of us use a PC or laptop on which we run one of those software programs
 - music file storage can be local (on the PC disk, for example) or done over a network from a NAS store
  
 Now, it's fair to say that vanilla PCs are typically optimized for anything but high-quality audio delivery over USB, and because of the limits on USB length then the other constraint is that the PC driving the DAC has to be reasonably close.  (And from what I have seen, even dedicated music servers like Aurender etc. are basically an optimized PC, set up just for the purpose of delivering audio.)
  
 The microRendu attacks two issues:
 a) via ethernet, the thing that plays the music files can be located anywhere convenient, including on some server in a cupboard somewhere and controlled via an iPad/tablet.  The PC can see the Rendu over the network and just sends it packets.
 b) the microRendu has been designed only for audio playback, and nothing else.  It's heavily optimized for just that purpose (and based on an hour or so listening, they've done a fantastic job).
  
 What we have yet to find out is if DAVE's lack of sensitivity to the quality of the input source (as detailed in this thread) now also extends to the difference between being served directly from a standard PC vs. via the microRendu.  Doubtless someone on this august thread will be reporting on that very, very soon!


----------



## isquirrel

paulchiu said:


> SImon,
> Which version?  2 channel CD or 7.1 blu-ray?


 

 The 2 channel soundtrack. The movie itself has been released on Blu-ray and its one of my favourite films for 2015.


----------



## paulchiu

isquirrel said:


> The 2 channel soundtrack. The movie itself has been released on Blu-ray and its one of my favourite films for 2015.


 
 Thanks Simon.
 I will order the bluray.


----------



## isquirrel

romaz said:


> It's funny you should ask because for the past week, I've been testing and comparing power chords with the DAVE.


 
Hey Roy,
  
As you know I have a nest of Shunyata's - all 3 Sigma types. I forgot to mention that a while ago I tested the Shunyata Sigma Digital against the Sigma Analog in EACH power supply of my Select II. To my surprise the Analog sounded better on the slower power supply while the digital sounded best (but not by much) on the upper one, when i looked into it, the bottom one was the supply for the Analog side of the DAC you guessed it, the middle one was for the digital side. 
  
I did try the ALO green line, and a couple of other cables, the ALO @ $300 was a good performer, the Sigma Digital was far superior in every way, micro details, bass extension & weight, transient response and overall PRAT. I tested them directly into the dirty mains in the house not into the dedicated line of the main system as per my rules of engagement for the DAVE. I did notice however a slight dip in performance of the main system which went away when I removed it from the system, so that tells me the DAV is pushing out some noise, I don;t see the point of running the SIgma's from the full Shunyata rig as that is overkill $ wise and no-one is going to realistically do that. 
  

  
  
However I have not tested the Sigma Analog against the Sigma Digital and that may bring about an improvement. I have spoken to Shunyata at length about the effect that Power Conditioning gear has when used on different voltages and it does make a difference that we are on 250V and run half the current, that you do in the US. That being said its probable that the best value for money would be a Shunyata Alpha Digital or Analog with a Venom Defender plugged into the adjacent socket, so if you can its worth asking if you can borrow several of those and plug them into the power receptacles around the house that have noisy household items plugged into them. Its well known in the Power community that power line quality in the US is more problematic than in parts of Europe and Australia. I found that with the Entreq grounding devices, they did nothing for my system whereas the Shunyata always has. The other cables worth auditioning is one of the Transparent cables either with or without a Power Isolator. 
  
As an aside I have recently added a Venom MPC-12C and plugged all of my computer rig including the modem/router into it and voila, major improvement. The best device I have heard is the StroMtank S 5000, however at $30,000 its really for the big 2 channel systems. Still if you want to get rid of all of your issues its that or Tesla.
  
http://www.audiosalon.com/brands/stromtank-s-5000-independent-power-source/


----------



## isquirrel

paulchiu said:


> Thanks Simon.
> I will order the bluray.


 

 Have a listen to the Soundtrack if you can Paul, its on Tidal or you can buy it on QOBUZ.


----------



## paulchiu

isquirrel said:


> However I have not tested the Sigma Analog against the Sigma Digital and that may bring about an improvement. I have spoken to Shunyata at length about the effect that Power Conditioning gear has when used on different voltages and it does make a difference that we are on 250V and run half the current, that you do in the US. That being said its probable that the best value for money would be a Shunyata Alpha Digital or Analog with a Venom Defender plugged into the adjacent socket, so if you can its worth asking if you can borrow several of those and plug them into the power receptacles around the house that have noisy household items plugged into them. Its well known in the Power community that power line quality in the US is more problematic than in parts of Europe and Australia. I found that with the Entreq grounding devices, they did nothing for my system whereas the Shunyata always has. The other cables worth auditioning is one of the Transparent cables either with or without a Power Isolator.
> 
> As an aside I have recently added a Venom MPC-12C and plugged all of my computer rig including the modem/router into it and voila, major improvement. The best device I have heard is the StroMtank S 5000, however at $30,000 its really for the big 2 channel systems. Still if you want to get rid of all of your issues its that or Tesla.


 
  
 Simon.
  
 My Dave arrives hopefully tomorrrow and I will be connecting my Sigma Analog and Sigma digital cables with it for compare.
 Right now, a space is reserved for the Dave out of slot 2 of a Triton V2.  I have slot 1 for the Nagra HD DAC.
 I too spoke for a long time with Shunyata people since last summer and listened to the units since.  
  
 I am pretty sure using the Triton V2, MPC-12C and assortments of Sigma HC, Sigma Analog and Sigma Digital throughout the chain is overkill for Dave or something like it.
 It is very hard to go for that extra 0.1% improvement.
  
 PAul


----------



## romaz

isquirrel said:


> Hey Roy,
> 
> As you know I have a nest of Shunyata's - all 3 Sigma types...


 
 Interesting, Simon.  Your power infrastructure is spectacular and I know you've invested heavily in optimizing it.  I agree, we are each in unique power environments with varying levels of AC quality and RF noise to contend with and so one set of recommendations will not be universally applicable.
  
 You are correct, the DAVE's switching PSU will backwash pollution back into the mains.  Rob has talked about this which is why he suggested to connect the DAVE to a line conditioner, not necessarily for the DAVE's sake but for the sake of your other gear.


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> Please excuse my lack of experience of networking/streamer technology, but am I right in thinking that the microRendu is not a Source as such, more of a conditioner/converter between the actual source and the DAC?
> 
> I.e, forgetting about the internet for a moment, you will still need a PC with Roon or HPQ etc, with internal disc drives or connection to a NAS. Or a dedicated server with the same storage requirements. And all these sources can already connect to DAVE directly, typically via USB. So so the only purpose of the microRendu is to clean up the source connection, like a posh version of Regen.
> 
> Have I missed something?


 
 I agree with what brightonjel has said.  The microRendu is best suited for those who do not care to have a PC/Mac/laptop in the listening room.  Furthermore, unlike the DAVE, which is much more immune to the source, most DACs don't sound that great when fed by a basic PC/Mac/laptop and so this is why expensive Aurenders exist.  What the microRendu offers is a small inconspicuous device that can neatly be hidden behind the DAVE, can be left on 24/7 while consuming less than 1 watt, provide superior playback capabilities compared to a basic PC for the small price of $640 USD.  Since the quality of playback rests solely on the Roon endpoint (in this case, the microRendu), then the quality of the PC running Roon becomes almost irrelevant.  Control can take place remotely via a variety of devices including a smartphone, iPad/Android tablet, PC/Mac/laptop.  If you think about it, the concept is quite elegant.
  
 Of course, with the microRendu, you will still need a PC somewhere to run RoonServer since the microRendu is merely an endpoint.  There are now better and more elegant solutions for this as well.  Consider the following items that @drdkey made me aware of that were just released which are low power devices that can be left on 24/7. The first item is ideal if you already have a NAS while the second (more expensive) item listed has the ability to rip your CDs automatically into storage which is something that a standalone NAS would be incapable of: 
  
 http://microjukebox.com/products/sonictransporter
  
 http://microjukebox.com/products/sonictransporter-ap-8tb-roon-server


----------



## isquirrel

paulchiu said:


> Simon.
> 
> My Dave arrives hopefully tomorrrow and I will be connecting my Sigma Analog and Sigma digital cables with it for compare.
> Right now, a space is reserved for the Dave out of slot 2 of a Triton V2.  I have slot 1 for the Nagra HD DAC.
> ...


 
 Paul, I am pretty sure that's what Roy and I are saying. I would be very careful about plugging the DAVE into the Triton, Roy's description of the "backwash pollution" is spot on and it could well cause you issues if you do. I would run it into a DPC-6 that will block the digital noise and then into the Triton. The Triton does not have any specific digital outlets, you have to view the Triton as the endpoint for the fresh power well coming out of it, injecting it with digital noise pollution - (that is a given as per Rob Watt's own statement), is like peeing into the freshwater well.
  
 I run all of my Digital Sigma's into a DPC-6 V2 and then into a Triton. Your in the US correct? If so it should be no issue to borrow a DPC-6 V2, I would try it into the wall and into the Triton listen to the differences. I have just tried the Analog and it does sound better BUT then the performance of my main system drops as the Analog Cable has no digital filters in it.


----------



## paulchiu

isquirrel said:


> Paul, I am pretty sure that's what Roy and I are saying. I would be very careful about plugging the DAVE into the Triton, Roy's description of the "backwash pollution" is spot on and it could well cause you issues if you do. I would run it into a DPC-6 that will block the digital noise and then into the Triton. The Triton does not have any specific digital outlets, you have to view the Triton as the endpoint for the fresh power well coming out of it, injecting it with digital noise pollution - (that is a given as per Rob Watt's own statement), is like peeing into the freshwater well.
> 
> I run all of my Digital Sigma's into a DPC-6 V2 and then into a Triton. Your in the US correct? If so it should be no issue to borrow a DPC-6 V2, I would try it into the wall and into the Triton listen to the differences. I have just tried the Analog and it does sound better BUT then the performance of my main system drops as the Analog Cable has no digital filters in it.


 
  
 I will run all these scenarios.  There is a Shunyata DPC-6 in another room.  I have been keeping all servers and digital sources away from the Triton V2.  The Sigma Analog direct to Nagra with wall did not sound as smooth, black or musical compared to said cable between Triton V2 and Nagra HD DAC.
  
 But, as we have discussed here the Dave is not a Nagra HD DAC and needs it's own microcosm.
  
 Paul


----------



## isquirrel

paulchiu said:


> I will run all these scenarios.  There is a Shunyata DPC-6 in another room.  I have been keeping all servers and digital sources away from the Triton V2.  The Sigma Analog direct to Nagra with wall did not sound as smooth, black or musical compared to said cable between Triton V2 and Nagra HD DAC.
> 
> But, as we have discussed here the Dave is not a Nagra HD DAC and needs it's own microcosm.
> 
> Paul


 

 Great, sounds you are onto it Paul. Are you using the MIPS with the Nagra HD? my experience with the Nagra is does not out out anything like the noise that the DAVE does. Are you running a Typhon?


----------



## paulchiu

isquirrel said:


> Great, sounds you are onto it Paul. Are you using the MIPS with the Nagra HD? my experience with the Nagra is does not out out anything like the noise that the DAVE does. Are you running a Typhon?


 
  
 Simon,
 I run the Sigma Analog into the Nagra MPS, the MPS into the Nagra HD DAC.
 Tried the simpler Nagra ACPS 2 and felt it was not the best long term solution.  I may have "heard' a tiny bit more smoothness with the larger MPS, but it could very well been imagined.
  
 No Typhon, but used Transparent systems before Shunyata for MSB Platinum 4's.  Tried the Transparent with Nagra but did not get the same feeling as when I heard the Transparent + Nagra combo at the Munich high end show 2 years ago.
 That was puzzling as well as disappointing.  Especially when I found out that at the Nagra labs, they used Transparent power and lines throughout the development of the Nagra HD DAC.
  
 Paul


----------



## isquirrel

paulchiu said:


> Simon,
> I run the Sigma Analog into the Nagra MPS, the MPS into the Nagra HD DAC.
> Tried the simpler Nagra ACPS 2 and felt it was not the best long term solution.  I may have "heard' a tiny bit more smoothness with the larger MPS, but it could very well been imagined.
> 
> ...


 
  


paulchiu said:


> Simon,
> I run the Sigma Analog into the Nagra MPS, the MPS into the Nagra HD DAC.
> Tried the simpler Nagra ACPS 2 and felt it was not the best long term solution.  I may have "heard' a tiny bit more smoothness with the larger MPS, but it could very well been imagined.
> 
> ...


 

 That is odd as you say. Have you got a battery in the MPS?
  
 I have always used Transparent PIMM's and PC's through my 2 channel system. I actually wired the 2 dedicated mean lines into the house and into the seperate power boards with Transparent power cabling on a 1.25 metre drum. 
  
 You can see the PIMM's in use for every component on the lowest level of the HRS rack in this photo. I used Transparent OPUS throughout including all signal and speaker cables. However I am getting better results recently from Shunyata in the headphone system. I have noticed recently that at all the shows that the WIlson, dCS, D'Agostino combo rooms all run full Transparent cabling for signal and power. I think into a PI8 and then StromTank and then wall. I have had a bit of experience with power and the top 2 have been Transparent and Shunyata.


----------



## paulchiu

isquirrel said:


> That is odd as you say. Have you got a battery in the MPS?


 
  
 Nope. No battery.  That maybe it.
  
 On another note.
 I am getting a raging boner looking at your toys!!!!!!!!


----------



## isquirrel

paulchiu said:


> Nope. No battery.  That maybe it.
> 
> On another note.
> I am getting a raging boner looking at your toys!!!!!!!!


 

 That's it then its the lack of the battery. I think they are pretty inexpensive, I don't think I have heard of a MPS without one so its worth a go if you can. You should be able to save a PC as it doesn't make much if any difference once you're battery power for the digital section.
  
 Re your boner, can't help there


----------



## romaz

isquirrel said:


>


 
  


paulchiu said:


> On another note.
> I am getting a raging boner looking at your toys!!!!!!!!


 
  
 Paul, check out the centerfold photo on this link and tell me if it looks familiar.  I believe we have a bonafide porn star in our midst:
  
 http://avisolation.com/


----------



## isquirrel

romaz said:


> Paul, check out the centerfold photo on this link and tell me if it looks familiar.  I believe we have a bonafide porn star in our midst:
> 
> http://avisolation.com/


 

 Cruel, my friend, cruel, that was taken when I was much younger and considerably firmer.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> Paul, check out the centerfold photo on this link and tell me if it looks familiar.  I believe we have a bonafide porn star in our midst:
> 
> http://avisolation.com/


 
  
 I need more real estate.
 These are so pretty.


----------



## TheAttorney

romaz said:


> I agree with what brightonjel has said.  The microRendu is best suited for those who do not care to have a PC/Mac/laptop in the listening room......
> 
> ..... Of course, with the microRendu, you will still need a PC somewhere to run RoonServer since the microRendu is merely an endpoint.  There are now better and more elegant solutions for this as well.  Consider the following items that @drdkey made me aware of that were just released which are low power devices that can be left on 24/7. The first item is ideal if you already have a NAS while the second (more expensive) item listed has the ability to rip your CDs automatically into storage which is something that a standalone NAS would be incapable of:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you brightonjel and romaz. Those sonictransporters look interesting.
  
 Considering that a big attraction of the DAVE for me was it's small size, I'm also looking at a small, low maintenance server, and the basic sonictransporter has an option for up to 2TB of internal SSD, which will be more than enough for all my redbook FLAC files (if I ever go DSD, I can always add a NAS drive later). As it's fanless as well, that means absolutely no moving parts and small enough to be tucked away in a cupboard somewhere. Note quite a single box solution, but it has its attractions.


----------



## Silvertone4

This is what I have on order without the internal SSD options. I plan to buy and install 2 2TB internal SSDs 
when the unit is delivered.


http://www.nativsound.com/en/music-server


----------



## Beolab

paulchiu said:


> Simon.
> 
> My Dave arrives hopefully tomorrrow and I will be connecting my Sigma Analog and Sigma digital cables with it for compare.
> Right now, a space is reserved for the Dave out of slot 2 of a Triton V2.  I have slot 1 for the Nagra HD DAC.
> ...




I think you guys need one of these, so you don't need to guess what cable doing what with the RF noise, then you have a hint of where to begin in the Power Cable / Plant jungle: 



Blue Horizon Noise Analyzer

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/bluehorizon/2.html

I have one on order! 

Price: $ 1500.00 in EU


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> Thank you brightonjel and romaz. Those sonictransporters look interesting.
> 
> Considering that a big attraction of the DAVE for me was it's small size, I'm also looking at a small, low maintenance server, and the basic sonictransporter has an option for up to 2TB of internal SSD, which will be more than enough for all my redbook FLAC files (if I ever go DSD, I can always add a NAS drive later). As it's fanless as well, that means absolutely no moving parts and small enough to be tucked away in a cupboard somewhere. Note quite a single box solution, but it has its attractions.


 
 I agree which is why I have ordered one of these with the 2TB SSD.  What is especially interesting about this unit is that you could potentially use it _without_ the Sonicorbiter or microRendu as it does have a USB port that you should be able to directly connect to the DAVE.  If your main interest is to have a compact and silent computer and are interested in saving some money, this could be used as a standalone Roon server.  On other DACs, SQ may not be that good but with the DAVE, SQ will probably be excellent.  How much better with the microRendu?  I'm not sure but I will try and find out.


----------



## esimms86

I'm having a blast over the past few days playing with the Phase control setting. It's amazing what a difference it makes going from one recording to another.


----------



## romaz

silvertone4 said:


> This is what I have on order without the internal SSD options. I plan to buy and install 2 2TB internal SSDs
> when the unit is delivered.
> 
> 
> http://www.nativsound.com/en/music-server


 
 Interesting device.  Looks well designed and has a nice feature set including multiple digital outputs (AES, BNC, USB).  I think I saw this advertised on Massdrop.  How much?


----------



## paulchiu

beolab said:


> I think you guys need one of these, so you don't need to guess what cable doing what with the RF noise, then you have a hint of where to begin in the Power Cable / Plant jungle:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Strong tool this one.
 For much smaller budgets.  Take a look here:
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/using-entech-line-noise-monitor-meter-noise-sniffer-13863/
  
 I tried using one of these plus I have a few other measuring tools from my days as IEEE member...
 Best readings have been from the Shunyata systems.  Have not tested the new Niagara 7000.
  
 Paul


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> I think you guys need one of these, so you don't need to guess what cable doing what with the RF noise, then you have a hint of where to begin in the Power Cable / Plant jungle:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Interesting device.  It would be helpful if you could plug a mains cable into it so you could assess how much RF was coming through the mains cable (or how well the mains cable was filtering RF).


----------



## bigfatpaulie

I suppose it is pretty official...  I'm on the list for a DAVE!  I guess the Canadian distributor is out of stock and we are waiting on more from the UK.
  
 Thanks for all the help everyone


----------



## romaz

bigfatpaulie said:


> I suppose it is pretty official...  I'm on the list for a DAVE!  I guess the Canadian distributor is out of stock and we are waiting on more from the UK.
> 
> Thanks for all the help everyone


 
 Congrats, Paul!  Another DAVE/Abyss guy.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

romaz said:


> Congrats, Paul!  Another DAVE/Abyss guy.


 
  
 It is largely your fault 
  
 Thanks.


----------



## romaz

esimms86 said:


> I'm having a blast over the past few days playing with the Phase control setting. It's amazing what a difference it makes going from one recording to another.


 
 It's amazing how many recordings are out of phase, even modern recordings, but this is not entirely unexpected with multi mic recordings.  If your music is sounding hollow or thin, especially in the bass region, its a good bet it's out of phase.  One of the more useful settings on the DAVE, for sure.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

Out of interest, how warm does the DAVE run?  Does it need to be well vented or can it be tucked away?


----------



## Silvertone4

romaz said:


> Interesting device.  Looks well designed and has a nice feature set including multiple digital outputs (AES, BNC, USB).  I think I saw this advertised on Massdrop.  How much?




$999

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/nativ-high-res-music-system-touchscreen-control#/


----------



## paulchiu

To open or not open.
 it's 2am ...


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> To open or not open.
> it's 2am ...


 
 Let it burn in overnight.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> Let it burn in overnight.


 
  
 Will do!


----------



## lovethatsound

paulchiu said:


> Will do!


Enjoy your new toy


----------



## paulchiu

We're at the 10th hours of operation.
  
*Some early findings. (Safety, shielding, etc) *
 DAVE runs at a warm 82F but emits the lowest EMI/EMF among my elite DACs. Less than 1 milligauss. Previously, that was the MSB Plat 4 at >2. Nagra at 2.5.  While the others were measured at 6 inches, the DAVE (see photo) is on the machine.
 At 6 inches, absolutely no EMI/EMF readings.  What can be ascertain is that there will be no ill effects audio-wise from EMI/EMF.  In terms of organic tissue effects, anything under 3 is safe.
  

  
  
*Source sensitivity*
 Early runs with Macbook Pro running Audirvana Plus and JRiver Media Center had the DAVE display going on and off constantly.  This was at first alarming as my previous uber DACs were less sensitive.  So, I turn off my Linux and Parallels emulators and ran just OSX-10.11.4.  Still, in some DSD128 plays.  occasional stops (display on/off) occur.  Only when I played with parameters within Audirvana and Media Center did the play became more consistent.
  
 Could it be that the DAVE requires an Uber dedicated server or transport?
  
*Can someone share their detail settings for Audirvana Pkus 3.4 and JRiver Media Center 21 for their DAVE here?*
*Thank you.*
  
*DAVE display*
 Is the text a tad pixelated?  I thought at last year's high-end show that the fonts appeared smoother? Or was that a mistaken memory.....
 My Display option 4 was also going off much faster than the 30 seconds stated in the user manual. * Is this adjustable?*
 In headphone use, can you change the display option?
  
*Early, really early prognosis*
 Definitely smoother, more detail with wider dynamic range than the Chord Hugo.  More musical and fun sounding than Moon 430 HAD.
 Cannot ascertain how DAVE compares with MSB or Nagra at this point.  Have to iron out the source issues first.
 Also, AQ Diamond (solid silver) USB has issues with DAVE.  Had to use Curious Cables USB.
 Waiting for Mapleshade Clearlink Optical Cable to compare 192K.  Hoping that may provide a cleaner run.
  
 Paul


----------



## JaZZ

Hi Paul
  
 I'm glad you finally got it!
  
 Display mode can only be changed with no headphone plugged in. In turn crossfeed is only available with a headphone plugged in.
  
 You're desribing the display going off and on constantly (but not the sound, as it seems). That's normal: As soon as you change the settings, even volume, it will turn off for a second a few seconds later. So it has nothing to do with an instable signal.
  
 I don't remember the manual, but my display shuts off after about 15 seconds in mode 4. – Yes, it's a bit pixelated.


----------



## paulchiu

jazz said:


> Hi Paul
> 
> I'm glad you finally got it!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you Marcel,
 This confirms mine is working normally.  The display pops on whenever there is disk I/O and other computer functions.  These interfere the DAVE when using software players like Audirvana and Media Center.  Seems to be only during high-bit play, which requires more computer resources.
 44.1khz files play smoothly without drama.
  
 But it is with DSD128 that I sense the DAVE shines. Much more clarity and separation with complex 2.8mhz files.
  
*trying to find the best Audirvana Plus and JRiver Media Center settings for the DAVE.*
  
 Paul


----------



## rkt31

@paulchiu, blue coast records has Fiona joy signature solos in native dsd128 converted from original master tapes. believe me you won't find a better piano recording than this. also the music is very good too. you can play this music all day long .


----------



## rkt31

also there is mahlar 5 by waterlily acoustics which was recorded natively in dsd through a single stereo mic by kavi Alexander, the man behind some award winning albums.


----------



## rkt31

Mahler 5


----------



## lojay

The DAVE has arrived.


----------



## lojay

Immediate thoughts (under 1 hour):
 1. I prefer the T2/SR009 to the HE1000 connected directly to the DAVE. 
  
 2. Compared the DAVE to MSB Analog via AES (this allows me to AB the DACs in under 5 seconds). My T2/SR009 has opened up in terms of the clarity, stage depth and width compared to the MSB Analog. The Analog sounds flat, compressed, congested and hazy in comparison. I have not conducted a blind test / volume matched test but the difference is obvious. While I made sure the DAVE was less loud than the MSB, the details are still clearer on the DAVE.
  
 3. I prefer connecting DAVE through AES (Weiss INT204 / NBS AES cable) than USB to my workplace computer. The problem is with the source (Weiss vs. workhorse computer) rather than the mode of connection.


----------



## romaz

lojay said:


>


 
 Congrats, Jason!  I like how you've hidden everything behind your monitors.  Very stealth!  
  
 Thanks for sharing your post.  Obviously, the DAVE should only get better with more hours of use.  I believe you're the first to directly A/B against the Analog on this thread and I think that will be of interest to some.


----------



## lojay

romaz said:


> Congrats, Jason!  I like how you've hidden everything behind your monitors.  Very stealth!
> 
> Thanks for sharing your post.  Obviously, the DAVE should only get better with more hours of use.  I believe you're the first to directly A/B against the Analog on this thread and I think that will be of interest to some.


 
  
 Thanks Roy. The DAVE is the DAC I have been looking for. In fact, it totally exceeded my expectations. I thought that the strength of the DAVE lies in better front to back layering of instruments in a live recording. Turns out that on top of that, there is an unexpected uncanny ability to depict the space and air in between the front instruments and back instruments that is awe inspiring. I have never quite heard anything like it.
  
 In comparison, the sonic cues on the MSB Analog are not only less spread out, there is none of the space and air between front and back row instruments. This is quite obvious in say the 10th anniversary _Les Miserables_ recording. Things sound more two-dimensional on the MSB. But then I do not have the Quad USB module so I have not heard the MSB sound its best. I doubt I will get the module to compare with the DAVE, though, because I have heard that the module will make the treble sound more tipped-up and sibilant. 
  
 If I were to nit-pick, the only issue with the DAVE is it is tuned to sound exciting and engaging. The DAVE is not sibilant or a treble-maniac, but the forward and engaging nature may be fatiguing for long periods of listening. Perhaps that is the Chord house sound, as you mentioned in your comparison of the DAVE with the Total DAC monoblocks. However, the impressive bit is that because the DAVE is so clear sounding and detailed, it sounds magnificent in low volumes where other DACs will sound bland. 
  
 I like my setup - hiding all the audio "mess" behind the monitors. I hope my monitors and work computer will not cause too much RF interference with the audio system. They are connected to a different mains supply, whereas the audio system is connected to an independent 20A mains supply through a Furutech GTX -G receptacle and Shunyata Triton V1 (Shunyata Zitron Python, Alpha HC and Sigma Analog PCs throughout).


----------



## paulchiu

lojay said:


> I like my setup - hiding all the audio "mess" behind the monitors. I hope my monitors and work computer will not cause too much RF interference with the audio system. They are connected to a different mains supply, whereas the audio system is connected to an independent 20A mains supply through a Furutech GTX -G receptacle and Shunyata Triton V1 (Shunyata Zitron Python, Alpha HC and Sigma Analog PCs throughout).


 
  
 There actually is more than just RF interference between devices to consider.  Something that can affect sound is the EMI (electromagnetic interference) caused by EMF (..fields) among various electric devices.  EMF from monitors can be quite high as they are rarely well shielded to counter that field, possibly degrading other components' signal transfer function.  Proper shielding in monitors adds bulk and cost.
  
 There are various devices that reduce, redirect or even transform EMF fields from causing EMI with quality audio equipment.  One such device is the Shakti stones.  Frankly, the simply solution is to avoid having high EMF devices in the first place and if possible, separate those with high emission from other equipment.
  
 I can say for certain that the DAVE is nearly zero EMF, which is tops among my DACs.  Chord did not cut cost in shielding their transformers and use the finest materials.  It is probably best to ascertain whether your monitor emits high EMF or not.  If they do, move them away from the other equipment.
  
 Paul


----------



## lojay

paulchiu said:


> There actually is more than just RF interference between devices to consider.  Something that can affect sound is the EMI (electromagnetic interference) caused by EMF (..fields) among various electric devices.  EMF from monitors can be quite high as they are rarely well shielded to counter that field, possibly degrading other components' signal transfer function.  Proper shielding in monitors adds bulk and cost.
> 
> There are various devices that reduce, redirect or even transform EMF fields from causing EMI with quality audio equipment.  One such device is the Shakti stones.  Frankly, the simply solution is to avoid having high EMF devices in the first place and if possible, separate those with high emission from other equipment.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Paul. Will simply turning off the monitors and unplugging them work? That would leave the only device giving out EMI my computer, which I could get rid of once I find an optimal source or server to feed the DAVE.
 How are you finding the DAVE compared to your MSB and Nagra?


----------



## paulchiu

lojay said:


> Thanks Paul. Will simply turning off the monitors and unplugging them work? That would leave the only device giving out EMI my computer, which I could get rid of once I find an optimal source or server to feed the DAVE.
> How are you finding the DAVE compared to your MSB and Nagra?


 
  
 Yes!  Once the monitors are unplugged, you are safe.
 In fact, you may want to A/B with an on/off to the monitor to see if you can pick up something with your headphones.  With something as revealing as the DAVE, you will hear it if those monitors are not shielded for EMF.
  
 After the first 12 hours of operation, the DAVE reached 85F and I let it rest for the day.  Like you said, the DAVE is very musical.  The instruments are well defined and things like lips parting and audience noise were heard in the Jazz at the Pawnshop HIDEF download.  I did have trouble with my MBP feeding 2.8mhz files running Audirvana.
 I am trying different settings and deleting some work programs to allow for more cache for the player.
 Both MSB 4 and Nagra HD seemed more forgiving but I did not tried such high bits files when in my early days with those DACs.
 Now, they play very smoothly, but they are into the thousands of hours.  They each have their set microcosms.
  
 I have not tried really good headphones with the DAVE.  Been using an AKG K814, which I like as it is rather neutral.    
 So have not experience the great imaging I read about.
 I plan to do that with HD800S, HE1000 and SR009 after 200 hours or so.
  
  
  
 Paul


----------



## lojay

paulchiu said:


> Yes!  Once the monitors are unplugged, you are safe.
> In fact, you may want to A/B with an on/off to the monitor to see if you can pick up something with your headphones.  With something as revealing as the DAVE, you will hear it if those monitors are not shielded for EMF.
> 
> After the first 12 hours of operation, the DAVE reached 85F and I let it rest for the day.  Like you said, the DAVE is very musical.  The instruments are well defined and things like lips parting and audience noise were heard in the Jazz at the Pawnshop HIDEF download.  I did have trouble with my MBP feeding 2.8mhz files running Audirvana.
> ...



Thanks Paul, I tried turning off the monitors but have not heard a noticeable difference. It might be that the other EMI sources in my room are still in play.

I generally find that the transducer plays the greatest role when it comes to imaging. But the DAVE is special not only for imaging but more importantly for the spatial depth heard between instruments. Not all recordings have this quality, in fact many (even live classical recordings) do not. Large scale orchestral works may well drown out the spatial depth cues on headphones - you may well need to hear this on a good two channel speaker system. I really enjoyed this aspect when listening to recordings of musicals on the DAVE just now, like Les Miserables and Phantom, where there is enough going on to hear depth but not too much to drown it.

But then again you are coming from the Nagra and MSB IV so those DACs may already be excellent in spatial depth!


----------



## rkt31

one suggestion for Dave owners is try movies in two channel set up. feed stereo downmix out from a blu Ray player to Dave. I watch movies with Hugo and it has been a great experience watching movies like inception, spr, master and commander, avatar and many more !


----------



## ecwl

I concur. I've been watching TV shows like The Amazing Race or Game of Thrones and movies like Good Dinosaur or Dark Knight or even Netflix shows like Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt or Chef's Table the same way via DAVE. The sonic upgrade is just tremendous (and that's upgrading from my old QBD76HDSD). It's amazing how much sonic details are captured on these shows. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rkt31

my query to some extent related to Dave too as some would like to use single ended out instead of xlr out of dave. I feed my power amp from Hugo. Hugo has rca only and my amp takes xlr only. I found that if I connect ground pin 1 of both xlr at amp end to sleeve of rca at Hugo end (via shield of balance cable) there is clear reduction in air and soundstage width. so kept shield free at rca end ie it was not connected to sleeve of rca but shield was connected to ground pin 1 of xlr. this way there is more width and better imaging. somewhere I read that connecting shield to sleeve of rca and pin 1 of xlr will also result ground loop hum. any ideas ?


----------



## paulchiu

movie folks.  
  
 I have found OOYH to be an effective software emulator for multi-channel experience with headphones.  I wrote briefly about it here:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator/675#post_12511093
  
 What does this have to do with DAVE?  A lot.  While the spatial effects may seem novelty when used out of a notebook computer.  OOYH scales deliciously up and into epic scale with reference level gear.  I have used it with my Nagra HD DAC and the simulated space is very accurate.  I heard many of my own theater production recordings and the OOYH bought nearly everything back, in terms of sound and room acoustics.
  
 I imagine the DAVE will do likewise.  The fact that there is no outboard power supply makes the DAVE an ideal production audio player/monitor for me.  It could go in my kit with the Sound Devices 633 mixer/recorder.
  
@lojay
 The acoustics interactions in a room even if visible is too complex to tame.  
 I am not an audio engineer.  Those people know about room design and acoustics management.  It was a few of these engineers in NYC that taught me about interference avoidance and isolation techniques.  With the amount of cabling and electric gear in a recording studio, things like Shakti stone and others came into my understanding of their world.
  
 They often tell me to start with an empty space.  Then pick each component for not only what it sounds but how it measures for the level of corruption to other parts in the room.  I once ask about my body type in the room, and she handed me an AKG K240.
  
 Paul


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> movie folks.
> 
> I have found OOYH to be an effective software emulator for multi-channel experience with headphones.


 
 I tried OOYH with the DAVE and it sounded horrible.  All I got was distortion.  At the time, he also could not get it to work with Roon.  Darin tried to figure out a fix and could not so he refunded my money.


----------



## isquirrel

paulchiu said:


> To open or not open.
> it's 2am ...


 

 Congratulations Paul, its a fine DAC you have there, Roy has more experience than any of us do with this DAC so I would be guided by him


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> I tried OOYH with the DAVE and it sounded horrible.  All I got was distortion.  At the time, he also could not get it to work with Roon.  Darin tried to figure out a fix and could not so he refunded my money.


 
  
 I had the same beginnings but since I had the A8 Realiser for 5 years and know about the "benefits", stuck with Darin and finally got the Hugo and Nagra to work with OOYH through MBP running JRiver Media Center.
  
 The Nagra + OOYH was actually better than the A8 Realiser.  For one, there are many choices of recorded room/speakers presets by Darin and his team.
 The placement expansion with the HD800S,, Nagra and OOYH running media center was errie.  Watching Star Wars Awakens 7.1 had nearly the same feel as a real theater, without the extra tall guy kicking my seat.
  
 I will be testing OOYH after the DAVE burn in.
  
 Paul


----------



## paulchiu

isquirrel said:


> Congratulations Paul, its a fine DAC you have there, Roy has more experience than any of us do with this DAC so I would be guided by him


 
  
 Yes! The good doctor makes house-calls!
 Thank you @romaz!!!


----------



## romaz

lojay said:


> If I were to nit-pick, the only issue with the DAVE is it is tuned to sound exciting and engaging. The DAVE is not sibilant or a treble-maniac, but the forward and engaging nature may be fatiguing for long periods of listening. Perhaps that is the Chord house sound...


 
 It didn't take long at all to get used to presentation qualities of the DAVE.  I would agree that it sounds more "forward" compared to the relaxed qualities of the R2R TotalDAC I had (and probably the MSB Analog that you have) but I don't find it to sound artificially lit up nor has fatigue ever been an issue, especially as the DAVE is so naturally smooth.  For me, the purpose of a DAC is simply to be faithful to the recording.  If the performance was meant to be forward and aggressive, then so be it.  Not warm or cool but neutral and transparent.  Not sweet or pretty or lush at the expense of distortion or tipped to accentuate the bass, midrange or treble but clear, coherent and tonally balanced.  We talk about accuracy of tone and timbre but also space and depth, qualities that are all tied to time resolution.  I have yet to hear a DAC that checks off all of these boxes so effortlessly and without fuss.
  
 I agree, however, that sometimes you're not looking to be 5th row center at Carnegie Hall but instead listening casually on your easy chair by the fireplace but that's why we own different headphones.


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> I had the same beginnings but since I had the A8 Realiser for 5 years and know about the "benefits", stuck with Darin and finally got the Hugo and Nagra to work with OOYH through MBP running JRiver Media Center.
> 
> The Nagra + OOYH was actually better than the A8 Realiser.  For one, there are many choices of recorded room/speakers presets by Darin and his team.
> The placement expansion with the HD800S,, Nagra and OOYH running media center was errie.  Watching Star Wars Awakens 7.1 had nearly the same feel as a real theater, without the extra tall guy kicking my seat.
> ...


 
 I certainly found the concept attractive.  If you figure out how to make it work and sound good, let me know.


----------



## romaz

isquirrel said:


> Congratulations Paul, its a fine DAC you have there, Roy has more experience than any of us do with this DAC so I would be guided by him


 
 Thanks, but there are others here who have owned the DAVE longer than I have.  As always, I defer to Rob's guiding wisdom.


----------



## romaz

rkt31 said:


> one suggestion for Dave owners is try movies in two channel set up. feed stereo downmix out from a blu Ray player to Dave. I watch movies with Hugo and it has been a great experience watching movies like inception, spr, master and commander, avatar and many more !


 
 I have my Oppo Bluray player connected to my DAVE and indeed, the downmix sounds wonderful.


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> DAVE runs at a warm 82F but emits the lowest EMI/EMF among my elite DACs. Less than 1 milligauss. Previously, that was the MSB Plat 4 at >2. Nagra at 2.5.  While the others were measured at 6 inches, the DAVE (see photo) is on the machine.
> At 6 inches, absolutely no EMI/EMF readings.  What can be ascertain is that there will be no ill effects audio-wise from EMI/EMF.  In terms of organic tissue effects, anything under 3 is safe.


 
 At Paul's leading, I bought one of these Trifield meters (model 100XE) from Amazon (about $150) and it has been interesting and even a bit of fun to see the type and amount of radiation each of my components emits.  I can verify that the DAVE emits almost none.  My 2-channel amp and all the High Fidelity magnetic equipment I am testing all emit very negligible levels.  I get the highest readings from my inexpensive HD Plex linear PSU that I use to power my optical network isolators but at my listening position, nothing is in the red zone.  I do have a large LED monitor in front of me just like Lojay but the radiation it emits is also fortunately low.  Whether on or off, I have not noticed any SQ issues.
  
 The exact health risks related to this exposure is uncertain.  There are some that equate this type of exposure as responsible for the brain cancers reported by frequent cellular phone use.  As a physician who periodically performs procedures under fluoroscopy (x-ray), I have to wear a "radiation" badge that monitors my monthly exposure.  While it doesn't happen to me as much these days, I have Radiology colleagues who reach a high enough level of exposure in a certain month where they are mandatorily excused from work for the rest of the month.  The concern is real and has been linked to a variety of both soft tissue and bone cancers.  So far, and correct me if I'm wrong, Paul, but the biggest offenders seem to be power supplies.  It's best to keep these as far from you as possible.


----------



## esimms86

paulchiu said:


> I had the same beginnings but since I had the A8 Realiser for 5 years and know about the "benefits", stuck with Darin and finally got the Hugo and Nagra to work with OOYH through MBP running JRiver Media Center.
> 
> The Nagra + OOYH was actually better than the A8 Realiser.  For one, there are many choices of recorded room/speakers presets by Darin and his team.
> The placement expansion with the HD800S,, Nagra and OOYH running media center was errie.  Watching Star Wars Awakens 7.1 had nearly the same feel as a real theater, without the extra tall guy kicking my seat.
> ...




I previously owned a Smyth Realiser and, since, have purchased the full set of OOYH presets that I've used with a Geek Out V2 via my MacBook Pro(in boot camp mode, of course). I have never tried using OOYH with Dave, mostly because Dave on its own is so enjoyable. I wonder how the landscape will shift for Darin Fong Audio and others when the Realiser A16 hits the US market next year at an msrp of 1495 USD.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> At Paul's leading, I bought one of these Trifield meters (model 100XE) from Amazon (about $150) and it has been interesting and even a bit of fun to see the type and amount of radiation each of my components emits.  I can verify that the DAVE emits almost none.  My 2-channel amp and all the High Fidelity magnetic equipment I am testing all emit very negligible levels.  I get the highest readings from my inexpensive HD Plex linear PSU that I use to power my optical network isolators but at my listening position, nothing is in the red zone.  I do have a large LED monitor in front of me just like Lojay but the radiation it emits is also fortunately low.  Whether on or off, I have not noticed any SQ issues.
> 
> The exact health risks related to this exposure is uncertain.  There are some that equate this type of exposure as responsible for the brain cancers reported by frequent cellular phone use.  As a physician who periodically performs procedures under fluoroscopy (x-ray), I have to wear a "radiation" badge that monitors my monthly exposure.  While it doesn't happen to me as much these days, I have Radiology colleagues who reach a high enough level of exposure in a certain month where they are mandatorily excused from work for the rest of the month.  The concern is real and has been linked to a variety of both soft tissue and bone cancers.  So far, and correct me if I'm wrong, Paul, but the biggest offenders seem to be power supplies.  It's best to keep these as far from you as possible.


 
  
 Nearly all the portable players, uber grade to iPhone will have some form of transformer inside.  If there is not sufficient shielding, your are exposing your body to high EMF.  When you travel, avoid sticking that Mojo, ZX2, or AK240 in your pants for any long periods of time when they are on.
 Of course, said transformer is no where the size and power of ones in a magnetron of a microwave oven.  While that oven can boil water in under 2 minutes, portable amp can boil a small part of you in under 20.  
  
 So, for travel.  I play with all my gear when they are at least a foot away from my brain and my privates.
 With the Trifield meter, you determine whether a foot is safe for your equipment.
  
 Paul


----------



## paulchiu

esimms86 said:


> I previously owned a Smyth Realiser and, since, have purchased the full set of OOYH presets that I've used with a Geek Out V2 via my MacBook Pro(in boot camp mode, of course). I have never tried using OOYH with Dave, mostly because Dave on its own is so enjoyable. I wonder how the landscape will shift for Darin Fong Audio and others when the Realiser A16 hits the US market next year at an msrp of 1495 USD.


 
  
 1495 is way less than half what I paid for the A8.
  
 I tested OOYH extensively with Hugo, ZX2 through Macbook Pro OSX 10.11.4 running iTunes with 44.1 and Media Center up to 48.  With these, some presets were straight awful.  My inner ear geometries likely differs greatly with test subjects.  While others like At (Acapella Triolon) for 2.0 and Hr (Acapella Speakers) for 5.1 to 7.1 was immersive.  Took more than a few hours to have my mind understand what's happening.
 The between the ears forensic details of a TOL headphone is somewhat diluted and stretched outward.
 With better DAC and headphones, the level of kept details we all love with cans are preserved.  The sound-field is bigger.
  
 I just tried it with the DAVE.  With iTunes and 2.0 tracks, OOYH works exceedingly well.  That large, large speaker in a well sized room is replicated.  Truly, with a lighter headphone like Grado GS1000i the traditional headphone sound-field is no longer in the head but in front.
 There are many portions where vocals seem nasally, but I feel this can be improved with better servers and headphones.
 And I have only 30 hours on the DAVE now.
  
 Paul


----------



## lojay

romaz said:


> It didn't take long at all to get used to presentation qualities of the DAVE.  I would agree that it sounds more "forward" compared to the relaxed qualities of the R2R TotalDAC I had (and probably the MSB Analog that you have) but I don't find it to sound artificially lit up nor has fatigue ever been an issue, especially as the DAVE is so naturally smooth.  For me, the purpose of a DAC is simply to be faithful to the recording.  If the performance was meant to be forward and aggressive, then so be it.  Not warm or cool but neutral and transparent.  Not sweet or pretty or lush at the expense of distortion or tipped to accentuate the bass, midrange or treble but clear, coherent and tonally balanced.  We talk about accuracy of tone and timbre but also space and depth, qualities that are all tied to time resolution.  I have yet to hear a DAC that checks off all of these boxes so effortlessly and without fuss.
> 
> I agree, however, that sometimes you're not looking to be 5th row center at Carnegie Hall but instead listening casually on your easy chair by the fireplace but that's why we own different headphones.




I think the DAVE sounds realistic, not artificially lit up at all. Probably smoother and richer across the spectrum compared to the MSB, which is amazing when you factor in that the MSB with upgraded volume control and power supply costs about the same as the DAVE.


----------



## lovethatsound

paulchiu said:


> 1495 is way less than half what I paid for the A8.
> 
> I tested OOYH extensively with Hugo, ZX2 through Macbook Pro OSX 10.11.4 running iTunes with 44.1 and Media Center up to 48.  With these, some presets were straight awful.  My inner ear geometries likely differs greatly with test subjects.  While others like At (Acapella Triolon) for 2.0 and Hr (Acapella Speakers) for 5.1 to 7.1 was immersive.  Took more than a few hours to have my mind understand what's happening.
> The between the ears forensic details of a TOL headphone is somewhat diluted and stretched outward.
> ...


This might be of interest to you and a few others.If you can get the BBC I player.1 go to channels.2 click on the BBC news channel.3 get Click up.4 you want Click from the 23/04/2016,at 5 minutes and 38 seconds.5 enjoy the best surround sound from your headphones you've ever heard.Even just doing it from the tv sounds good.


----------



## romaz

SOMETHING NEW
  
 Those of you who have read about my adventures at AXPONA in Chicago recently know that I was introduced to a set of RCA adapters made by High Fidelity Cables that elevated my system to new musical heights.  The impact of these $550 quad of adapters, based on magnetic conduction technology patented by Rick Schultz was so transformational that I knew I needed to explore his products further.  
  

  
 Rick wasn't surprised that his adapters made such a difference in my system geared primarily for headphone use but he was intrigued by my keen interest because most people that buy his gear, I suspect, probably have large expensive 2-channel systems and not headphone systems.  I say this because Rick's entry level set of analog interconnects, the CT-1, sells for $1,600 for a 1-meter pair while his best pair, the Pro, sells for $18,900 for a meter.  His best power cord sells for $20,900 for a 1-meter length, his best line conditioner sells for $24,900 and his best speaker cable sells for $34,900 per meter.  Almost certainly "unobtainium" for most head-fiers.  
  
 Those who have followed some of my posts and reviews of various headphones, amps, DACs, music servers and power products know that I am intrigued to know how high the ceiling is in all aspects of audio if for no other reason than to satisfy my insatiable curiosity about how close man-made products can get to reproducing the real thing.  The value of listening to so many things also provides valuable perspective.  How else do you know something is really that good unless you know how it compares to other things?  
  
 What else has this perspective taught me?  In my write-up for Tyll Hertsens during my time with him at Big Sound 2015, this was one of my concluding statements:
  
_"You don't have to spend a lot of money to get great sound. The headphones, amps, DACs and players being produced today are more consistently of a high standard and the best technologies of just a few years ago have trickled down to even __entry level__ gear. My experience at Big Sound 2015 has reaffirmed for me that from the greatest to the least, differences are more often subtle than stark."_
  
 Well, every so often, you come across a special piece of equipment or technology that is an exception to this rule, where the difference is not subtle but rather quite stark or where the value proposition is so high that spending something like $13,000 actually feels like a bargain.  Most of us would call this a game changer and for me, the DAVE unequivocally belongs in this category.  Very few other things in audio that I have owned or tried have provided such profound awe and joy...until now.  This magnetic conduction technology championed by High Fidelity Cables now belongs in this same category.  
  
 As most owners of the DAVE have experienced for themselves, the DAVE does what it does without much fuss.  Even with its stock 18g mains cable, a $10 generic USB cable and basic PC or Mac, provided you have reasonable quality AC power, you will be rewarded with an outstanding musical experience.  Of course, you can connect the DAVE to an audiophile-class mains cable, USB cable, line conditioning, mechanical isolation and something like a $17,000 Aurender W20 and there are further improvements to be had but my experience has been that these improvements are small and not transformational.  This is where this magnetic conduction technology is different because the level of realism this brings is startling upon first exposure and continues to amaze the more magnetism you add to your system.  It's not that this technology improves the DAVE but rather it reveals the DAVE's truer potential, I potential I didn't think was even possible.  
  
 Those of you who read my recent comparison of various mains cables know that in an elilte field of competitors, I found the High Fidellity CT-1 mains cable ($2,000) paired with High Fidelity's MC6-Hemisphere line conditioner ($2,800) to reign supreme with respect to enhancing clarity, tonal density and speed.  Some have suggested that I compare other chords, including the Shunyata Sigma Analog and even a $9,900 Purist Luminist that incorporates liquid Ferox to shield against RF and serve as a dampener but my suspicion is that the High Fidelity combination based on this unique magnetic conduction technology will continue to provide certain unique qualities that other chords based on more traditional technology cannot. 
  
 Over the past couple of days, I have been testing a prototype for Rick Schultz designed specifically for headphone use.  It is, in fact, his first headphone device and because this is a prototype that has no official name yet, I will simply refer to it as the High Fidelity "headphone device."  Here are a few photos:
  



  
 As you can probably see, this is a passive "in-series" device that connects between the DAVE and your headphone cable.  This is an early prototype and Rick will be sending me others to test but what I can tell you is that you will absolutely want one of these.  The level of realism is simply uncanny, either through my HE-1000, HD800S, TH900 or Noble Kaiser 10 CIEMs.  Everything that the DAVE does so well is elevated at least a couple of levels.  The things that really standout is bass is so much tighter, the speed is almost eletrostatic-like, the air and depth are more pronounced and the leading edge is fantastically clear and decisive...I have never heard the plucking of a guitar sound this good before on an audio system.  Any downsides?  None that I have yet found.  This is the kind of device that needs to be in the hands of Jude or Tyll for review.  It is the kind of technology that I believe could be transformational for any DAC, headphone cable or headphone company.  The only question is price.  I am not sure what it costs to manufacture something like this and I will encourage Rick to consider a high volume, low margin approach similar to the USB Regen.  Whether this is possible or not, I don't know but without question, I will be first in line for this product upon its release.  I now consider it as indispensable as the DAVE itself.   To be fair to the DAVE, I will likely not speak of it further on this thread and will probably start a dedicated thread for it at some point. _ Stay tuned..._


----------



## bmichels

romaz said:


> SOMETHING NEW
> 
> Those of you who have read about my adventures at AXPONA in Chicago recently know that I was introduced to a set of RCA adapters made by High Fidelity Cables that elevated my system to new musical heights.  The impact of these $550 quad of adapters, based on magnetic conduction technology patented by Rick Schultz was so transformational that I knew I needed to explore his products further.
> 
> ...


 
  
 This is very very interesting.  Please kept us posted...
  
 Thanks for all your valuable inputs with our Hobby


----------



## esimms86

romaz said:


> SOMETHING NEW
> 
> Those of you who have read about my adventures at AXPONA in Chicago recently know that I was introduced to a set of RCA adapters made by High Fidelity Cables that elevated my system to new musical heights.  The impact of these $550 quad of adapters, based on magnetic conduction technology patented by Rick Schultz was so transformational that I knew I needed to explore his products further.
> 
> ...




Roy, thanks again for your report. This prototype is clearly a mechanism for transferring music signals magnetically from headphone out to headphone cable. The beauty of it lies in the fact that it's compatible with all 1/4 inch terminated dynamic headphone cables. It does make one wonder what would happen if HFC manufactured an actual magnetic headphone cable, but I'm getting a little ahead of things there. 

It would, on the other hand, be simplicity to A/B the device with no other HFC products in the system. This would be what the typical headfier would be looking at when considering a purchase.

I'm very curious to know what potential price this unit could be sold for(cheapest to most expensive). As HFC generally starts with a "basic" product and then offers the same functionality at increasing price points, I would expect this product to not waver from that approach to developing a product line.


----------



## romaz

esimms86 said:


>


 
 I have approached Rick about making an actual headphone cable.  I believe the challenge (although probably not insurmountable) are the terminations.  From his interconnects to speaker cables, the type of cabling is the same and so I don't see why his CT-1 or CT-1E couldn't be adapted to a headphone cable and I can verify that from the adapters to the actual interconnect, the difference is significant.  
  
 His technology requires "real estate" and that would represent the other challenge to actually building a cable that hangs from your neck.  The bigger and more powerful the magnet, the better the impact and thus far, he has not found a ceiling to where the benefit stops.  His better cables incorporate these heavy "wave guides" installed at the midpoint of the cable, obviously not practical on a headphone cable.  His current prototype is a decent sized box that houses a decently powerful magnet and so it is a very nice solution as it is, one I would happily accept.  Rick has suggested he has an even better prototype in the works.  What I envision to be the best case scenario would be a box similar (or even bigger) to what I have now paired with a basic CT-1 with proper terminations as this would serve as a more ideal conductor for his magnetic technology.
  
 As you've stated, pricing will be the key for mass adoption.  What I will say is this.  The DHC Silver Spore4 is the finest headphone cable I have heard, good enough for me to spend nearly $2,700 for it.  Having connected my HD800S with its _stock _cable to this High Fidelity headphone device, I would prefer the stock cable + High Fidelity headphone device to the Silver Spore4 by itself.


----------



## Sonic77

So has anyone beside myself received their Sonore micro Rendu? I just placed my order for the Sonore Signature series power supply, I'm using ifi power supply for now.
 No need for expensive servers or mac mini, or even computers once you set it up on your nas and the sound takes you to the next level with the Dave dac. I'm really happy and will consider this my end set up for probably a long time, to me it's that good. I'm using minimum server with Linn Kazoo as well as J river with J remote for Ipad.


----------



## Amomentiny

Few days ago,HeadphoneClub website(A Chinese audiophiles website) hold a "Blind Listening Test",Name: Delta-Sigma Vs. R2R.
  
 http://www.headphoneclub.com/thread-418239-1-1.html
  
 Eight DACs take part in this test and divided them into two groups .
  
 R2R:
 1. TOTALDAC D1-DUAL
 2. Lavry DA2002
 3. SCHIIT YGGDRASIL
 4. AQUA La Scala

 Delta-Sigma:
 1. *Chord DAVE*
 2. Lavry Quintessence DA-N5
 3. Merging NADAC
 4. dCS Vivaldi DAC

 To make it fair,All DACs are using the same sound source:dCS Vivaldi Transport.
  
 Each DACs test contain three soundtrack：
 1. Dutoit / Orchestre Symphonique de Montreal(Organ Symphony)
 2. Ah, vous dirais-je maman", K. 265(Female voice)
 3. Beethoven Sonata N° 29 Hammerklavier Op.106(Piano)
  
 For the convenience of all audiophiles.Organisers recorded the sound (from DAC output signal,recording by professional audio studio)and upload all file to the Internet.(recording files)
 Recording equipment: Antelope Audio Orion 32 Interface, Avid Pro Tools HD12.
  
 Each DAC have their letter : A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H.and whitout any hints(Blind test).
 Files name: http://i3.buimg.com/c5973d1cac551610.jpg
  
 A lot of people join this test and Share which one they think is best.
  
 During the blind listening test,F received most of the Praise (Many people guess F is dcs Vivaldi or total-dac).
  
 And yesterday,Organisers released the results.Chord dave is F


----------



## paulchiu

Has anyone tried SPDIF out of MAC, RCA into their DAVE?
  
 Also, are the top panel holes for ventilation mostly?  Since not all of them light up, in fact only 3.
 The display under option 4 also shuts off in about 10 seconds rather than the 30" stated in the user manual. (yeah, i read those....)
  
 Paul


----------



## shuttlepod

sonic77 said:


> So has anyone beside myself received their Sonore micro Rendu? I just placed my order for the Sonore Signature series power supply, I'm using ifi power supply for now.
> No need for expensive servers or mac mini, or even computers once you set it up on your nas and the sound takes you to the next level with the Dave dac. I'm really happy and will consider this my end set up for probably a long time, to me it's that good. I'm using minimum server with Linn Kazoo as well as J river with J remote for Ipad.


 

 Hi Sonic77--
  
 Thank you for this update on your experience with the mR. I am one of those folks waiting patiently for the comments to roll in on this unit and the various power supply options. Obviously, you are happy with it and happy enough to place an order for one of the best power supplies you can pair with the mR. 
  
 What would be of great interest to me and presumably other audiophiles is how the mR compares to other server options in your system. What were you using before? Did you do direct comparisons? If so, could you describe what you heard? If you feel comfortable comparing the mR to other sources that you've heard over the years, would you mind telling us about those comparisons? 
  
 Also, tell us about how you are connecting the mR to your network and to the DAVE. Do you have a long run of ethernet cable from your NAS to the mR? How long and what type of cable? Have you tried any optical isolation for that cable or any other tweaks to enhance the signal going to the mR? And what type of USB cable connection are you using to the DAVE? Have you experimented with different connections?
  
 Finally, have you found that the mR's sonic signature changes over time with burn-in?
  
 Any information would be helpful.


----------



## romaz

sonic77 said:


> So has anyone beside myself received their Sonore micro Rendu? I just placed my order for the Sonore Signature series power supply, I'm using ifi power supply for now.
> No need for expensive servers or mac mini, or even computers once you set it up on your nas and the sound takes you to the next level with the Dave dac. I'm really happy and will consider this my end set up for probably a long time, to me it's that good. I'm using minimum server with Linn Kazoo as well as J river with J remote for Ipad.


 
 I have not received mine yet although it is due this coming week.  I now have Paul Hynes of Scotland building me a power supply for my microRendu but it will take 6 weeks unfortunately.  Until then, I will be using the iFi power supply that you are using and what you are saying is great news!  I will be using Roon but I doubt that will make a difference.  Thank you for your report.


----------



## romaz

amomentiny said:


> Few days ago,HeadsetClub website(A Chinese audiophiles website) hold a "Blind Listening Test",Name: Delta-Sigma Vs. R2R.
> 
> http://www.headphoneclub.com/thread-418239-1-1.html
> 
> ...


 
 This is very interesting.  Thank you for sharing it!  You chose excellent music (very demanding) to test your DACs.
  
 Your photos show a very impressive setup.  You mention you are a headset club but your photos show a pair of speakers.  Was this a 2-channel or headphone blind listening test?
  
 Finally, you present your list of DACs with the DAVE listed as #1 and the La Scala being last at #8.  Was this your group's ranking of these DACs?  I notice the DCS Vivaldi only ranked #4 if this is the case.


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> Has anyone tried SPDIF out of MAC, RCA into their DAVE?
> 
> Also, are the top panel holes for ventilation mostly?  Since not all of them light up, in fact only 3.
> The display under option 4 also shuts off in about 10 seconds rather than the 30" stated in the user manual. (yeah, i read those....)
> ...


 
 I am using SPDIF out of my Mac now via a Mapleshades optical cable and it sounds very good although USB is very slightly better.  @ecwl has tried the BNC inputs into the DAVE I recall and he didn't like it.  Rob has stated also that BNC input on the DAVE is the worst sounding input.


----------



## Amomentiny

headphoneclub...just a mistake
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
 test using both headphone and speakers
  
*录制器材包括：*
*1. *Chord DAVE
*2. *Lavry Quintessence DA-N5
*3.* Merging NADAC
*4.* dCS Vivaldi DAC
*5.* TOTALDAC D1-DUAL
*6.* Lavry DA2002
*7. *SCHIIT YGGDRASIL
*8.* AQUA La Scala
  
 you mean that red number? its just number,not rank...maybe expressional differences between chinese and english languages and cultures.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
*"录制器材包括" in english mean: **"dac equipment includes"*


----------



## romaz

amomentiny said:


> headphoneclub...just a mistake
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Ok, thank you for explaining.  I would have enjoyed being part of your listening group!


----------



## Sonic77

shuttlepod said:


> Hi Sonic77--
> 
> Thank you for this update on your experience with the mR. I am one of those folks waiting patiently for the comments to roll in on this unit and the various power supply options. Obviously, you are happy with it and happy enough to place an order for one of the best power supplies you can pair with the mR.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi romaz & shuttlepod,
  
 You guys are going to be sooo happy, just wait and see! I own another server caps v3 zuma with audiophile optimizer with jplay, maxed out and mac mini with various software, just blows them away badly. I also tried the battery power unit from sotm and saw an improvement, that's why I upgraded to the Sonore power unit. Let me know what you guys think when you get your micro Rendu.
 Yes I heard a change in sound day two, it starts out thin but keep playing, it opens up. I use a switch and a audio quest diamond Ethernet cable. I have western digital nas hard drive, install minimum server on that and you get to bypass computers and servers entirely, you need a controller you can use kazoo linn or others, hoped this helped.


----------



## romaz

sonic77 said:


> Hi romaz & shuttlepod,
> 
> You guys are going to be sooo happy, just wait and see! I own another server caps v3 zuma with audiophile optimizer with jplay, maxed out and mac mini with various software, just blows them away badly. I also tried the battery power unit from sotm and saw an improvement, that's why I upgraded to the Sonore power unit. Let me know what you guys think when you get your micro Rendu.


 
 Really great to hear!  John Swanson suggests at least a 50-hour burn in before it sounds good so I suspect it will only get better.  What I am really encouraged to read is that you heard an improvement with the SOtM battery unit suggesting that the DAVE will reveal differences in power supplies with the microRendu.  Probably the best news yet for me.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> I am using SPDIF out of my Mac now via a Mapleshades optical cable and it sounds very good although USB is very slightly better.  @ecwl has tried the BNC inputs into the DAVE I recall and he didn't like it.  Rob has stated also that BNC input on the DAVE is the worst sounding input.


 
  
 Thanks Roy.  You just saved me $900 on SPDIF/ RCA add-ons.
 I have to send back the optical cable.  They sent me the standard toslink ends.
  
 I am still having trouble with my MBP running Audirvana 2.8mhz files using USB to DAVE.  The load up has hiccups.  No such flow issues with 44.1 to 192k.
  
 Paul


----------



## paulchiu

My DAVE serial was above 29K.  This must be the best selling high-end DAC of our time.
 Other uber DAC I have used were in the hundreds.


----------



## Amomentiny

oops


----------



## shuttlepod

sonic77 said:


> Hi romaz & shuttlepod,
> 
> You guys are going to be sooo happy, just wait and see! I own another server caps v3 zuma with audiophile optimizer with jplay, maxed out and mac mini with various software, just blows them away badly. I also tried the battery power unit from sotm and saw an improvement, that's why I upgraded to the Sonore power unit. Let me know what you guys think when you get your micro Rendu.
> Yes I heard a change in sound day two, it starts out thin but keep playing, it opens up. I use a switch and a audio quest diamond Ethernet cable. I have western digital nas hard drive, install minimum server on that and you get to bypass computers and servers entirely, you need a controller you can use kazoo linn or others, hoped this helped.


 

 Really appreciate the feedback, Sonic77. I understand you can connect the mR to your dac directly via a hard USB connector that comes with the mR. Are you using that? Any problems physically connecting this to the DAVE? 
  
 Regarding the ethernet cable, I assume you are using the AQ Diamond cable between the switch and mR? If so, what type of cable are you using before the switch? Do you know whether the AQ Diamond cable makes any difference vs. ordinary ethernet cable?
  
 Thanks in advance for your impressions. Looking forward to trying the mR!


----------



## lojay

amomentiny said:


> Few days ago,HeadphoneClub website(A Chinese audiophiles website) hold a "Blind Listening Test",Name: Delta-Sigma Vs. R2R.
> 
> http://www.headphoneclub.com/thread-418239-1-1.html
> 
> ...




I understand that the "blind test" was conducted by recording the analog output of the DACs and uploading them on the Internet. The participants then downloaded the files, and in the comments section of the webpage then guessed which DAC was which- this was part of a "lottery" where those who guessed the identity of the DAC correctly had a small cash prize. 

I have read the comments, although DAVE was consistently ranked top 2 by most listeners and Yggy the last, I would note (1) those listeners listened to the recordings through their own playback system, (2) some noted the 3 dB difference between the loudest and softest recordings of DAC output and (3) a blind testing session was apparently held live at the venue.

Question: does anyone know where the comments from the participants at the live venue are? To me their opinions would be more valuable than those who merely played back the recordings of the output of these DACs.


----------



## Sonic77

shuttlepod said:


> Really appreciate the feedback, Sonic77. I understand you can connect the mR to your dac directly via a hard USB connector that comes with the mR. Are you using that? Any problems physically connecting this to the DAVE?
> 
> Regarding the ethernet cable, I assume you are using the AQ Diamond cable between the switch and mR? If so, what type of cable are you using before the switch? Do you know whether the AQ Diamond cable makes any difference vs. ordinary ethernet cable?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your impressions. Looking forward to trying the mR!


 

 Hi shuttlepod,
  
 You need to support the mR since it doesn't lay flat and could damage your Dave usb connector.
 Yes I am using the AQ diamond cable between the switch and the mR. I am using Vandesail CAT7 High Speed Ethernet cable before that, I have been using the AQ diamond for so long I forgot what it's like without it in the chain, but if I didn't hear a difference I would've sent it back.
 Hope that helped


----------



## shuttlepod

sonic77 said:


> Hi shuttlepod,
> 
> You need to support the mR since it doesn't lay flat and could damage your Dave usb connector.
> Yes I am using the AQ diamond cable between the switch and the mR. I am using Vandesail CAT7 High Speed Ethernet cable before that, I have been using the AQ diamond for so long I forgot what it's like without it in the chain, but if I didn't hear a difference I would've sent it back.
> Hope that helped


 

 Thank you.


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> Do you know whether the AQ Diamond cable makes any difference vs. ordinary ethernet cable?


 
  
 Here is what Chris Connaker said in his review of the microRendu regarding its ethernet port:
  
"The microRendu contains a 10/100/1000 Gbps Ethernet interface. This interface is limited to 470 Mbps due to the internal i.MX6 bus. Audiophile needn't worry about this "limitation" because 470 Mbps is still hundreds of Mbps more than is required for even the highest resolution audio files. The microRendu features signal conditioning, signal isolation, and EMI suppression on this Ethernet input in part by using a radical power network with multiple regulators between the power to the Ethernet PHY and the power to the USB subsystem. These regulators have a very high power supply rejection ratio or PSSR. The PSSR is used to describe the amount of noise that can be rejected from a source of power. Readers familiar with commercial motherboards built to hit the lowest price point will understand this is a huge difference because those cheap boards don't contain much isolation between the power to the Ethernet PHY and USB subsystem. This extensive design may be responsible for some of the network immunity or lack of sensitivity I've found with the microRendu. No matter what I do prior to the Ethernet input of the unit, the sound remains the same. Even using CAT7 shielded cables that break the inherent galvanic isolation of Ethernet by using connected shields on both ends."
  
Chris went on to admit, however, that in his comparison of various ethernet cables, he did not compare any special audiophile grade network cables like your AQ Diamond or my SOtM CAT6 + filter.  I also am using optical isolation which I found was more effective.  If I didn't already own these things, I probably would wait before buying anything special but as I already own this equipment and as I have validated their efficacy in a previous setup, it wouldn't hurt to use what I have is how I see it.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> Here is what Chris Connaker said in his review of the microRendu regarding its ethernet port:
> 
> "The microRendu contains a 10/100/1000 Gbps Ethernet interface. This interface is limited to 470 Mbps due to the internal i.MX6 bus. Audiophile needn't worry about this "limitation" because 470 Mbps is still hundreds of Mbps more than is required for even the highest resolution audio files. The microRendu features signal conditioning, signal isolation, and EMI suppression on this Ethernet input in part by using a radical power network with multiple regulators between the power to the Ethernet PHY and the power to the USB subsystem. These regulators have a very high power supply rejection ratio or PSSR. The PSSR is used to describe the amount of noise that can be rejected from a source of power. Readers familiar with commercial motherboards built to hit the lowest price point will understand this is a huge difference because those cheap boards don't contain much isolation between the power to the Ethernet PHY and USB subsystem. This extensive design may be responsible for some of the network immunity or lack of sensitivity I've found with the microRendu. No matter what I do prior to the Ethernet input of the unit, the sound remains the same. Even using CAT7 shielded cables that break the inherent galvanic isolation of Ethernet by using connected shields on both ends."
> 
> Chris went on to admit, however, that in his comparison of various ethernet cables, he did not compare any special audiophile grade network cables like your AQ Diamond or my SOtM CAT6 + filter.  I also am using optical isolation which I found was more effective.  If I didn't already own these things, I probably would wait before buying anything special but as I already own this equipment and as I have validated their efficacy in a previous setup, it wouldn't hurt to use what I have is how I see it.


 
  
 I like the bit about "EMI suppression".  Good to read about EMI/EMF and potential power supply/transformer ill effects.
 Who is Chris Connaker?
  
 Paul


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> I like the bit about "EMI suppression".  Good to read about EMI/EMF and potential power supply/transformer ill effects.
> Who is Chris Connaker?
> 
> Paul


 
 Chris Connaker is the founder of computeraudiophile.com.  He is also the driving force behind the CAPS music server and many consider him among the foremost authorities in music servers.  Some people hire him (even fly him) to destinations to tune their custom built servers for them.  He has heard many things and he is suggesting this microRendu that was just released by Sonore is the best music server he has heard.


----------



## shuttlepod

romaz said:


> Here is what Chris Connaker said in his review of the microRendu regarding its ethernet port:
> 
> "The microRendu contains a 10/100/1000 Gbps Ethernet interface. This interface is limited to 470 Mbps due to the internal i.MX6 bus. Audiophile needn't worry about this "limitation" because 470 Mbps is still hundreds of Mbps more than is required for even the highest resolution audio files. The microRendu features signal conditioning, signal isolation, and EMI suppression on this Ethernet input in part by using a radical power network with multiple regulators between the power to the Ethernet PHY and the power to the USB subsystem. These regulators have a very high power supply rejection ratio or PSSR. The PSSR is used to describe the amount of noise that can be rejected from a source of power. Readers familiar with commercial motherboards built to hit the lowest price point will understand this is a huge difference because those cheap boards don't contain much isolation between the power to the Ethernet PHY and USB subsystem. This extensive design may be responsible for some of the network immunity or lack of sensitivity I've found with the microRendu. No matter what I do prior to the Ethernet input of the unit, the sound remains the same. Even using CAT7 shielded cables that break the inherent galvanic isolation of Ethernet by using connected shields on both ends."
> 
> Chris went on to admit, however, that in his comparison of various ethernet cables, he did not compare any special audiophile grade network cables like your AQ Diamond or my SOtM CAT6 + filter.  I also am using optical isolation which I found was more effective.  If I didn't already own these things, I probably would wait before buying anything special but as I already own this equipment and as I have validated their efficacy in a previous setup, it wouldn't hurt to use what I have is how I see it.


 

 Yes, I did see Connaker's comments regarding the mR's apparent immunity to what comes before it. I was just looking for some corroboration or another opinion. Roy, since you have the SOtM CAT6 + filter and have used optical isolation, I'd be interested in your findings regarding the mR's (and/or DAVE's) sensitivity or lack thereof to these tweaks. 
  
 I'm also guessing that most people will be using the mR with its short, hard adapter to connect to the USB input on their dac. I haven't seen any reports so far of people comparing this mode of connecting the mR to using an audiophile USB cable between the mR and the dac. Another point of curiosity. 
  
 Mostly, though, I'm interested in just how sensitive or insensitive the DAVE is to the mR. For example, with DAVE is there any real sonic difference between the SonicOrbiter SE and the mR? A laptop computer and the mR? If so, how big of a difference might this be and how much might it vary depending on the power supply used with the mR? I think these would be the primary considerations in deciding whether to purchase the mR for use with DAVE, and deciding how much to spend on a power supply.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> Chris Connaker is the founder of computeraudiophile.com.  He is also the driving force behind the CAPS music server and many consider him among the foremost authorities in music servers.  Some people hire him (even fly him) to destinations to tune their custom built servers for them.  He has heard many things and he is suggesting this microRendu that was just released by Sonore is the best music server he has heard.


 
  
 Roy,
  
 How are you connecting the microrendu with DAVE?  CAT(?) wiring?  What server?


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> Yes, I did see Connaker's comments regarding the mR's apparent immunity to what comes before it. I was just looking for some corroboration or another opinion. Roy, since you have the SOtM CAT6 + filter and have used optical isolation, I'd be interested in your findings regarding the mR's (and/or DAVE's) sensitivity or lack thereof to these tweaks.
> 
> I'm also guessing that most people will be using the mR with its short, hard adapter to connect to the USB input on their dac. I haven't seen any reports so far of people comparing this mode of connecting the mR to using an audiophile USB cable between the mR and the dac. Another point of curiosity.
> 
> Mostly, though, I'm interested in just how sensitive or insensitive the DAVE is to the mR. For example, with DAVE is there any real sonic difference between the SonicOrbiter SE and the mR? A laptop computer and the mR? If so, how big of a difference might this be and how much might it vary depending on the power supply used with the mR? I think these would be the primary considerations in deciding whether to purchase the mR for use with DAVE, and deciding how much to spend on a power supply.


 
 We have almost the exact same questions, Jon.  It will take some time for me to fully answer these questions as my preferred power supply won't be ready for another 6 weeks but if a solid difference can be heard with the DAVE even with the basic iFi power supply, it will probably be worth $640 for me.  
  
 Both Jesus and John have been clear that if you are going to use the hard USB adapter that comes with the mR, you will want to support the mR or you will void its warranty.  With yours (and my) situation specifically, since we use High Fidelity RCA analog interconnects which have long magnetic connectors, I believe this will preclude use of this hard USB adapter.  For what it's worth, although I never tested this with my USB Regen, some have reported that the hard USB adapter that came with the USB Regen did not sound as good as other solutions.  Curious USB, for example, makes a 200mm "Regen link" specifically to replace this hard adapter.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> We have almost the exact same questions, Jon.  It will take some time for me to fully answer these questions as my preferred power supply won't be ready for another 6 weeks but if a solid difference can be heard with the DAVE even with the basic iFi power supply, it will probably be worth $640 for me.
> 
> Both Jesus and John have been clear that if you are going to use the hard USB adapter that comes with the mR, you will want to support the mR or you will void its warranty.  With yours (and my) situation specifically, since we use High Fidelity RCA analog interconnects which have long magnetic connectors, I believe this will preclude use of this hard USB adapter.  For what it's worth, although I never tested this with my USB Regen, some have reported that the hard USB adapter that came with the USB Regen did not sound as good as other solutions.  Curious USB, for example, makes a 200mm "Regen link" specifically to replace this hard adapter.


 
  
 You could actually make the curious Regen length down to 140mm.
 I am using that now with DAVE.  There is a bit of extra air using the curious Regen vs. Hard stubbed Regen vs Straight AQ Diamond vs. Radio Shack.
  
 Paul


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> Roy,
> 
> How are you connecting the microrendu with DAVE?  CAT(?) wiring?  What server?


 
 If the claims are true that the microRendu is immune to network noise, many on the microRendu thread are suggesting using a simple Belden CAT6A cable from Blue Jeans cable because of the superior shielding that this inexpensive cable utilizes.
  
 Because I already own an SOtM dCBL CAT-6 cable ($170) with SOtM iSO-CAT 6 LAN isolation filter ($350), it would be a shame not to use them, especially as I have verified their effectiveness.  Of the two, however, I will say that the SOtM dCBL CAT 6 cable has the greater benefit and I wouldn't miss the ISO-CAT 6 LAN isolation filter if I didn't have it.
  
 Even more effective and less expensive is optical LAN isolation (about $100).  The parts to buy are detailed here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/787020/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box/270#post_12401123
  
 Again, all of this might be overkill with the microRendu but I would say that for $100, there's little to lose with getting optical isolators.
  
 As for my server, I have one of these on order.  I ordered one with a 2TB SSD card so that I don't have to deal with a NAS.  In a few months, 4TB SSDs will be released and so there is a nice upgrade path that will soon be available for when I outgrow 2TB of storage.  It appears you don't use Roon which is what makes this server particularly attractive to me but you can use JRiver with it as well:
  
 http://microjukebox.com/products/sonictransporter


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> If the claims are true that the microRendu is immune to network noise, many on the microRendu thread are suggesting using a simple Belden CAT6A cable from Blue Jeans cable because of the superior shielding that this inexpensive cable utilizes.
> 
> Because I already own an SOtM dCBL CAT-6 cable ($170) with SOtM iSO-CAT 6 LAN isolation filter ($350), it would be a shame not to use them, especially as I have verified their effectiveness.  Of the two, however, I will say that the SOtM dCBL CAT 6 cable has the greater benefit and I wouldn't miss the ISO-CAT 6 LAN isolation filter if I didn't have it.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, I do not use Roon but I am still having trouble running Audirvana Plus with 2.8mhz files through MBP to DAVE.  With Media Center, no issues but to me, Audirvana sounds better,
  
 My MBP maybe underpowered for all this.
  
 Paul


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> You could actually make the curious Regen length down to 140mm.
> I am using that now with DAVE.  There is a bit of extra air using the curious Regen vs. Hard stubbed Regen vs Straight AQ Diamond vs. Radio Shack.
> 
> Paul


 
 I found the same thing you did when I tested the Curious USB against my TotalDac USB, AQ Diamond and a few others but the Curious USB has now been slightly improved upon by the Audience AU24SE USB that I am currently testing and handily beaten by the Clarity "Organic" USB I recently tested.  I have a Transparent Premium USB and a Clarity Natural USB coming in for comparison soon.  High Fidelity Cables is working on a prototype USB device for me to test in the next few weeks that will utilize its magnetic conduction technology on whatever USB cable you may be using and so I will probably withhold from buying any new USB cable because it may not matter at all with this new device.


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> Yes, I do not use Roon but I am still having trouble running Audirvana Plus with 2.8mhz files through MBP to DAVE.  With Media Center, no issues but to me, Audirvana sounds better,
> 
> My MBP maybe underpowered for all this.
> 
> Paul


 
 You should give Roon a try.  On the DAVE, it sounds splendid.  You can open a trial account and compare it against Audirvana and hear for yourself.  The latest version 1.2 that just came out is really top notch.  Also, no other product I have come across manages your library + Tidal anywhere as well.  
  
 For those that have Aurenders and are waiting for Roon integration, they announced at AXPONA a couple of weeks ago that they have decided not to move forward with Roon incorporation.  They had hinted at this when I spoke with Eric Shinn (head of software development for Aurender) at CES in January but now it's official.


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> Yes, I do not use Roon but I am still having trouble running Audirvana Plus with 2.8mhz files through MBP to DAVE.  With Media Center, no issues but to me, Audirvana sounds better,
> 
> My MBP maybe underpowered for all this.
> 
> Paul


 
 Also, with Roon 1.2 and my Sonicorbiter SE (this should apply to the microRendu as well since the software is the same), I have no problems at all playing DSD up to DSD256 (11.2 MHz) on the DAVE using a Mac.  I have several natively recorded DSD256 files and they render beautifully with no skips or drops.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> Also, with Roon 1.2 and my Sonicorbiter SE (this should apply to the microRendu as well since the software is the same), I have no problems at all playing DSD up to DSD256 (11.2 MHz) on the DAVE using a Mac.  I have several natively recorded DSD256 files and they render beautifully with no skips or drops.


 
  
 I just scanned through a bunch of pages talking Roon, offerings, partners, and reviews.  Words that my eyes noticed were Sonore, Cary, Microrendu but no Nagra or Chord.  OK, I gather the last two are not network related.
  
 I will wait for your report after your wires come in Roy.
  
 Paul


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> I found the same thing you did when I tested the Curious USB against my TotalDac USB, AQ Diamond and a few others but the Curious USB has now been slightly improved upon by the Audience AU24SE USB that I am currently testing and handily beaten by the Clarity "Organic" USB I recently tested.  I have a Transparent Premium USB and a Clarity Natural USB coming in for comparison soon.  High Fidelity Cables is working on a prototype USB device for me to test in the next few weeks that will utilize its magnetic conduction technology on whatever USB cable you may be using and so I will probably withhold from buying any new USB cable because it may not matter at all with this new device.


 
  
 Roy,
  
 How does the Mapleshade 14 footer toslink compared to all the above?
  
 Paul


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> I just scanned through a bunch of pages talking Roon, offerings, partners, and reviews.  Words that my eyes noticed were Sonore, Cary, Microrendu but no Nagra or Chord.  OK, I gather the last two are not network related.
> 
> I will wait for your report after your wires come in Roy.
> 
> Paul


 
 Roon has more to do with the music server than the DAC and so very little will be said about Roon and a certain DAC unless there are compatibility issues.  I can assure you Roon + DAVE is excellent.  I suspect Nagra would have no problems either.  My reporting on the microRendu will largely focus on how much better (if at all) it will be compared against the Sonicorbiter SE and Aurender N10/W20 with the DAVE.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> .... Aurender N10/W20 with the DAVE.


 
  
 Ah!
 So that Romaz is you, as mentioned on AudioAdvisor.com.
_"Detail was exquisite, especially the layering of detail."_
  
 You now have both Aurenders?  
  
 Paul


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> Roy,
> 
> How does the Mapleshade 14 footer toslink compared to all the above?
> 
> Paul


 
 Unlike USB cables, I have not heard any difference at all among toslink cables from a SQ standpoint.  By their nature, they provide complete noise isolation.  They are historically poor with jitter but as we know, DAVE handles this very well but it handles jitter best with USB.  Where the quality of the toslink cable matters is with the integrity of signal transmission.  With a well made toslink cable, you should be able to easily pass 24/192 PCM and DSD64.  With the Mapleshade, I can easily pass 24/192 PCM and also DSD128 with zero skips or drops.  I could easily be content with toslink but because most of us bought the DAVE to achieve the best sound possible, then USB it is.  Also, it's a shame to be limited to 24/192 PCM and DSD128.
  
 How does toslink compare against USB in terms of SQ?  They're very close but if you listen to USB vs toslink on your Mac, I believe you will hear a slight difference as I have in favor of USB.  Here is Rob's explanation why this is the case:
  
  
"Agreed on the USB input - it is a tad more detailed with more clarity than the optical - but we are talking small differences here. Using the jitter test you can measure v tiny degradation using optical, but its barely detectable. The reason USB is slightly better is because the timing comes from the FPGA, and of course they are both galvanically isolated."  Rob


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> Ah!
> So that Romaz is you, as mentioned on AudioAdvisor.com.
> _"Detail was exquisite, especially the layering of detail."_
> 
> ...


 
 Guilty.
  
 I have sold my previous Aurender although I still have ready access to them and I consider the N10 and W20 to be excellent music servers.  I have taken a few apart and I know them very well.  They are useful for comparison as they represent a known high-end point of reference for many.  If I were to say the microRendu is better than a Sonicorbiter or a CAPS server, it probably would not mean that much for many but if I say it is better than an Aurender W20, many more people would find that to be significant.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> Guilty.
> 
> I have sold my previous Aurender although I still have ready access to them and I consider the N10 and W20 to be excellent music servers.  I have taken a few apart and I know them very well.  They are useful for comparison as they represent a known high-end point of reference for many.  If I were to say the microRendu is better than a Sonicorbiter or a CAPS server, it probably would not mean that much for many but if I say it is better than an Aurender W20, many more people would find that to be significant.


 
  
 Wait. Did you just say this other thing is better than an Aurender W20.
  
 Paul


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> Wait. Did you just say this other thing is better than an Aurender W20.
> 
> Paul


 
 No, because my microRendu hasn't arrived yet but that is certainly a question I want to be able to answer for myself.  I suspect the W20 is an obvious benchmark for anyone who's heard it.  Chris Connaker, in his review of the W20 last year had indicated that the W20 was the finest music server he had heard, better than even the CAPS servers he had been championing for years. While he hasn't completed his review of the microRendu, this is what he had to say about it recently:
  
"I've spent hours on end listening to music since I took delivery of the microRendu. I wanted to make sure I wasn't burned by expectation bias, so I compared it to many other sources and methods of audio playback (both blind and sighted). After all this, I can unequivocally say that with the microRendu in place, my audio system has never sounded better than right now."


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> No, because my microRendu hasn't arrived yet but that is certainly a question I want to be able to answer for myself.  I suspect the W20 is an obvious benchmark for anyone who's heard it.  Chris Connaker, in his review of the W20 last year had indicated that the W20 was the finest music server he had heard, better than even the CAPS servers he had been championing for years. While he hasn't completed his review of the microRendu, this is what he had to say about it recently:
> 
> "I've spent hours on end listening to music since I took delivery of the microRendu. I wanted to make sure I wasn't burned by expectation bias, so I compared it to many other sources and methods of audio playback (both blind and sighted). After all this, I can unequivocally say that with the microRendu in place, my audio system has never sounded better than right now."


 
  
 Even if the microRendu is equal or 99% of the W20, it's a no-brainer.
 Microrendu is just 1/25 the cost of the Aurender.


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> Even if the microRendu is equal or 99% of the W20, it's a no-brainer.
> Microrendu is just 1/25 the cost of the Aurender.


 
 That's how many people feel and why it's caused such a buzz.  But to get the best from it, you will want to pair it with a very good 7V/2A linear PSU, particularly one with very low output impedance like the JS-2 that now serves as a paper weight on your desk, the upcoming "mystery " power supply by John Swanson (availability expected in August), the Sonore Signature power supply ($1,400), a Teddy Pardo power supply or a custom build from someone like Paul Hynes.  Even factoring this in, it is a bargain if it sounds as good.


----------



## esimms86

And, of course, to be complete in your comparison, you would need to A/B the microRendu with the SonicOrbiterSE whereby the SOSE is also connected to a LPS better than both the standard one it comes shipped and the ifi PS, if that's what you purchased from Sonore.
  
 While many people say that computer audio is in its infancy, we may yet be in a golden era for music servers. There is some buzz about the Sound Galleries Music Server(SGMS) currently showing in Munich which converts all of your music files to DSD512 and sells for 16000 Euros(yes, you read that right). Chris Connaker will conclude and post his writeup of the microRendu soon and this will take place after his trip to Munich where he specifically comments that he had a chance to listen to the SGMS. If the microRendu can compete even respectfully against the likes of the Aurender W20 and the SGMS(I expect the jury to still be out on the SGMS since no reviewer AFAIK has had a chance to try one out in their own system), it will indeed be a game changer in this rapidly developing field.


----------



## romaz

esimms86 said:


> And, of course, to be complete in your comparison, you would need to A/B the microRendu with the SonicOrbiterSE whereby the SOSE is also connected to a LPS better than both the standard one it comes shipped and the ifi PS, if that's what you purchased from Sonore.


 
 I agree with this but it' not so easy since the SOSE requires 5V and the microRendu requires 6-9V.  I will not have a top flight PSU that outputs 5V and so the fairest comparison would be to compare each using their respective stock PSUs or else to compare them both using my inexpensive HD Plex PSU which is capable of both 5V and 9V outputs.
  
  


esimms86 said:


> While many people say that computer audio is in its infancy, we may yet be in a golden era for music servers. There is some buzz about the Sound Galleries Music Server(SGMS) currently showing in Munich which converts all of your music files to DSD512 and sells for 16000 Euros(yes, you read that right). Chris Connaker will conclude and post his writeup of the microRendu soon and this will take place after his trip to Munich where he specifically comments that he had a chance to listen to the SGMS. If the microRendu can compete even respectfully against the likes of the Aurender W20 and the SGMS(I expect the jury to still be out on the SGMS since no reviewer AFAIK has had a chance to try one out in their own system), it will indeed be a game changer in this rapidly developing field.


 
 The SGMS will not be a good option for DAVE users and again, this is what Rob has to say about servers that upsample to DSD with respect to the Mojo but should be equally applicable to the DAVE:
  
Converting the original file into DSD or up-sampling is a very bad idea. The rule of thumb is to always maintain the original data as Mojo's processing power is way more complex and capable than any PC or mobile device.
  
DSD as a format has major problems with it; in particular it has two major and serious flaws:
  
1. Timing. The noise shapers used with DSD have severe timing errors. You can see this easily using Verilog simulations. If you use a step change transient (op is zero, then goes high) with a large signal, then do the same with a small signal, then you get major differences in the analogue output - the large signal has no delay, the small signal has a much larger delay. This is simply due to the noise shaper requiring time for the internal integrators to respond to the error. This amplitude related timing error is of the order of micro seconds and is very audible. Whenever there is a timing inaccuracy, the brain has problems making sense of the sound, and perceives the timing error has a softness to the transient; in short timing errors screw up the ability to hear the starting and stopping of notes.
  
2. Small signal accuracy. Noise shapers have problems with very small signals in that the 64 times 1 bit output (DSD 64) does not have enough innate resolution to accurately resolve small signals. What happens when small signals are not properly reproduced? You get a big degradation in the ability to perceive depth information, and this makes the sound flat with no layering of instruments in space. Now there is no limit to how accurate the noise shaper needs to be; with the noise shaper that is with Mojo I have 1000 times more small signal resolution than conventional DAC's - and against DSD 64 its 10,000 times more resolving power. This is why some many users have reported that Mojo has so much better space and sounds more 3D with better layering - and its mostly down to the resolving power of the pulse array noise shaper. This problem of depth perception is unlimited in the sense that to perfectly reproduce depth you need no limit to the resolving power of the noise shaper. 
  
So if you take a PCM signal and convert it to DSD you hear two problems - a softness to the sound, as you can no longer perceive the starting and stopping of notes; and a very flat sound-stage with no layering as the small signals are not reproduced accurately enough, so the brain can't use the very small signals that are used to give depth perception.
  
The second issue in using the transport to up-sample (44.1 to 176.4 say) is that the up-samplers in a PC or mobile device are very crude, with very limited processing power and poor algorithms. This results in timing problems, and like with DSD you can't hear the starting and stopping of notes correctly. These timing problems also screw up the perception of timbre (how bright or dark instruments sound), the pitch reproduction of bass (starting transients of bass lets you follow the bass tune), and of course stereo imagery (left right placement is handled by the brain using timing differences from the ears). Now Mojo has a very advanced algorithm (WTA) that is designed to maximise timing reconstruction (the missing timing information from one sample to the next) and huge processing power to more accurately calculate what the original analogue values are from one sample to the next. Its got 500 times more processing power than normal, and this allows much more accurate reconstruction of the original analogue signal.
  
So the long and the short is don't let the source mess with the signal (except perhaps with a good EQ program) and let Mojo deal with the original data, as Mojo is way more capable.
  
Rob
  
 In case you've already forgotten, here is his response to your question back in November about upsampling:
  
Oh dear. Do NOT use your computer to up-sample or change the data when you use one of my DAC's.
  
All competent DAC's up-sample and filter internally; the issue is how well that filtering is done, in terms of how well the timing of transients is reconstructed from the original analogue. Computers are poor devices to use for manipulating data in real time as they are concurrent serial devices  - everything has to go through one to 8 processors in sequence. With hardware and FPGA's you do not need to do that, you can do thousands of operations in parallel. Dave has 166 DSP cores with each core being able to do one FIR tap in one clock cycle. That is incredibly powerful processing power way more powerful than a PC.
  
But its not just about raw processing power but the algorithm for the filter. The WTA filter is the only algorithm that has been designed to reduce timing of transients errors, and the only one that has been optimised by thousands of listening tests.
  
Rob
  
 As to whether the DAVE upsamples, yes, it does and well beyond DSD512.  Here again is his response to me:
  
Oh dear!
  
No I over sample to 2048 FS, or a new filtered sample every 9.6 nS.
  
The first WTA stage is 16FS. Then the next WTA stage is at 256 FS. Then a three stage filter then takes it to 2048 FS.
  
Its done for a number of reasons - to reduce the timing of transients uncertainty problem, to enable the noise shapers to work at 104 MHz so that the noise shapers can reproduce depth correctly, and finally to allow no measurable noise floor modulation.
  
So there are a number of reasons why I oversample to such a high rate.
  
ADC ringing artifacts is not one of them, as that is irrelevant.
  
Regards
Rob
  
 It seems to me that the rest of the audio world is trying to do what the DAVE already does better.  To feed the DAVE an upsampled DSD file that the DAVE would only further upsample makes no sense to me.


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## shuttlepod

romaz said:


> It seems to me that the rest of the audio world is trying to do what the DAVE already does better.  To feed the DAVE an upsampled DSD file that the DAVE would only further upsample makes no sense to me.


 
  
 Especially if that server will cost you roughly $20k USD.


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## rkt31

can't see the wav download link of those dac group test files. can anybody pm me ?


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## esimms86

DAVE obviously does not fit into the upsampling equation, which is why a DAC like the T+A was chosen for the SGMS demo. Likewise, the otherwise outstanding Phasure NOS1a doesn't fit as it is required to be driven by its own upsampling software(XXHE, which Rob counsels against using with DAVE for the same reason). So, yes, the processing purposely built into DAVE makes DAVE its own ecosystem with its own set of rules to play by.

Certainly, there exists a subgroup of computer audiophiles who find DSD more favorable to their tastes and also see the notion of upsampling to DSD512 an exciting option. I must admit that I love both PCM and DSD and I have easily over 100 music files in that format(some hi res downloads but the majority being files converted from SACD by a friend). What I can't dispute is just how wonderful DSD sounds through DAVE(with the DSD, not PCM, option selected, of course). Do I want to upsample any or all of my music to DSD512? No. I'm happy that something like the SGMS exists and that people are willing to push the envelope. Do I want one at even 1/10th the price? No. Am I excited that a multitude of music servers exist for various tastes, degrees of computer expertise and budgets? Unquestionably yes.

I'm learning everyday that there is no such thing as end game in this hobby. Rob and John will unquestionably be bringing more complex and musically satisfying DACs and digital amps in the future. Who knows, perhaps Rob will decide some day to produce a DAC that requires an order of magnitude more code than DAVE. For that matter, it's by no means a stretch to say that the day will come when consumer priced digital audio is inarguably superior to vinyl. 

Regarding comparing the SOSE with the microRendu, keep in mind that the Uptone Audio JS-2 can be set to 5 volts.


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## romaz

esimms86 said:


> DAVE obviously does not fit into the upsampling equation, which is why a DAC like the T+A was chosen for the SGMS demo. Likewise, the otherwise outstanding Phasure NOS1a doesn't fit as it is required to be driven by its own upsampling software(XXHE, which Rob counsels against using with DAVE for the same reason). So, yes, the processing purposely built into DAVE makes DAVE its own ecosystem with its own set of rules to play by..




Well expressed and I agree with your comments. Despite Rob's issues with DSD, he has suggested that you keep a file in its native format and so if a performance is recorded with a DSD recorder, you should keep it DSD and as you said so well, the DAVE does a wonderful job playing back DSD. Like yourself, I have a growing collection of native DSD files that I really enjoy, especially files recorded with a DSD256 recorder and as I discover more of these recordings, I will continue to buy them. I also have a decent SACD collection that I stream through my Oppo to my DAVE and they sound better through the DAVE than through my Oppo's own DAC. 

What I don't agree with is the conversion of a native PCM file to a DSD file. I am not convinced this sounds better on the DAVE at all. If you look at the 2L test bench, as you know, you can download various test files in various formats, from 16/44 to DSD128+ although you will notice that without exception, all of these files were originally recorded in PCM (usually DXD). As I have listened to and compared these different file formats with the DAVE, to my ears, the native PCM recording sounds best. In comparison, the DSD sounds soft and at the expense of detail. With natively recorded DSD files, I have not found that to be the case and so this would support Rob's assertion that you should keep a file in its native format and let the DAVE handle any processing.

With that said, Rob has also been very clear that the DAVE's WTA filter and large number of TAPS are optimized for superior playback of PCM. He has expressed that with analog recordings that have been converted to both PCM and DSD, PCM (even 16/44) will sound better than DSD and I agree with this. As we know, Jazz at the Pawnshop was originally recorded via reel to reel and many jazz fans I know continue to believe that this is the best jazz recording there is. This analog recording has since been transferred to both PCM and DSD and I own a DSD128 transfer of this recording. As I compare this DSD transfer to the 16/44 PCM stream from Tidal on the DAVE, I actually prefer the 16/44 PCM stream. Again, the DSD copy I own sounds soft and less detailed in comparison. Of course, if this is how one prefers their music, that's fine but for those of us who are trying to experience the "live" from a live performance, it is my opinion that PCM sounds better. To be honest, as I listen to a really good Redbook file with the DAVE, I can't ever recall myself thinking that somehow I was being shortchanged.

As for vinyl, as the best recordings today are being recorded natively with either DSD or DXD recorders, I cannot envision how vinyl can top the DAVE with a modern recording since the analog transfer will have digital roots.


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## romaz

esimms86 said:


> Regarding comparing the SOSE with the microRendu, keep in mind that the Uptone Audio JS-2 can be set to 5 volts.




I agree, this would be a great way to compare the two and up until last week, I had a JS-2 on order but for personal reasons, I have decided to go with a Paul Hynes custom build instead.


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## esimms86

shuttlepod said:


> Especially if that server will cost you roughly $20k USD.




I suppose this is a movement spearheaded by HQPlayer(whose designer is a major proponent of DSD) and the PS Audio Directstream DAC. In today's Stereophile report from Munich Jason Victor Serinus discusses the EMM Labs DA2 DAC which has an msrp of 25,000 USD. It uses its considerable processing resources to upsample all input to DSD1024 in real time(!). However impressive a feat that may be, Serinus found it to have an exaggerated midrange. "Smudged" is not the way you the sound of your DAC to be described by the audiophile press.

On the other hand, Michael Lavorgna had favorable things to say regarding his impressions of the SGMS at Munich.


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## DaveRedRef-III

I see the first major music company has signed up to MQA
http://www.mqa.co.uk/customer/news/post/warner-mqa-deal

I hope Chord join the growing list by retrospectively implementing with Dave


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## Mython

daveredref-iii said:


> I see the first major music company has signed up to MQA
> http://www.mqa.co.uk/customer/news/post/warner-mqa-deal
> 
> I hope Chord join the growing list by retrospectively implementing with Dave


 

 I hadn't realised how much the aspect of _timing_ fidelity is being emphasised, in the MQA promotional copy.
  
 Since timing accuracy also happens to be a major emphasis of Rob's WTA filter approach, I am curious as to whether or not the two approaches are compatible, and I am also curious how MQA might be 'capturing' (digitising) timing details with (what _seems_ to be being implied) greater accuracy than all other existing ADC approaches.
  
 Lots of questions...


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## DaveRedRef-III

Hi Mython
I think for commercial reasons every hi end hifi manufacturer should be considering MQA as a bolt on because it stands to reason that with a complete MQA remastering, lesser Dacs with MQA will more than likely sound better than better Dacs without it. MQA will always have the upper hand in the equation because it has the better master for comparison purposes. I think that is why we are seeing a trend of companies like Pioneer and Onkyo providing 'free' upgrades. There is no reason that I can see why Dave would not sound superior with MQA handling than all other current Dacs. I suspect though that without it, Dave will be disadvantaged against others that can handle the MQA files.

I am part way through reading this recent lengthy report by The Absolute Sound magazine 

Link from MQA site: https://mqa-production.s3.amazonaws.com/default/0001/01/6a10f3ba2385770ac3658df2cadc537ffcd09cd3.pdf


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## Mython

I'm neither pro nor anti MQA, in regard to whether or not Chord 'should' or 'shouldn't' implement it, or whether or not it would be _competitively_ prudent to - I'm just curious about the technicalities underlying MQA.
  
 I understand that they are accessing original master tapes (didn't Neil Young say he was going to do that, before his store just started selling all the same Hi-Res files as every other Hi-Res download store on planet earth? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)
  
 Joking aside, I understand that MQA intend to dynamically 'calibrate' the playback chain (including the digital transport & DAC, unless I've misunderstood) to most accurately mimic the sound of each original analogue master tape (presumably via some kind of metadata embedded within each MQA file?). That'd be all well & good.
  
 What I don't understand, however, is how the MQA approach can improve timing accuracy, unless their actual ADC itself (as a seperate entity from any subsequent codec-engineering, further along the process) is somehow a step ahead of all existing ADCs (and, as DAVE fans know, Rob happens to be working on an ADC following some of his WTA principles implemented in DAVE, Hugo and Mojo). The cleverest codec in the world cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, WRT to timing accuracy, if the ADC itself is no better than any other ADC. Perhaps they are merely saying that the MQA codec *retains* maximum timing information _*available*_ in the raw ADC'd PCM file.
  
 I dunno - it just surprised me, a few minutes ago, when I followed that MQA link, posted above, and noticed, in another page of their website, that they are strongly pushing the aspect of timing accuracy in their approach, which is not something I have any recollection of seeing in their promotional literature, in months past. I can't help wondering (with a wry grin) if this might have been prompted, to some degree, by Rob's recent success in advancing the state of the DAC art, and his many public statements that timing accuracy is critically-important to convincing music reproduction, but I'm just amusing myself, with that thought, so don't take it too literally
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
  
 .


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## paulchiu

Is there some Microrendu review by a magazine like HiFi News somewhere?
  
 Paul


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## shuttlepod

paulchiu said:


> Is there some Microrendu review by a magazine like HiFi News somewhere?
> 
> Paul


 

 Paul, I don't think you are going to find any "traditional" review of the mR, with the exception of the partial review (Part 1) on computeraudiophile by Chris Connaker. Connaker promises a Part 2 fairly soon, once he's done with the Munich show. But there are a number of threads on the forums at computeraudiophile where users are posting impressions. Realize that this product only began to ship in the last ten days. I am personally going to wait a number of months for things to shake out before making any decision.


----------



## romaz

mython said:


> I hadn't realised how much the aspect of _timing_ fidelity is being emphasised, in the MQA promotional copy.
> 
> Since timing accuracy also happens to be a major emphasis of Rob's WTA filter approach, I am curious as to whether or not the two approaches are compatible, and I am also curious how MQA might be 'capturing' (digitising) timing details with (what _seems_ to be being implied) greater accuracy than all other existing ADC approaches.


 
 Improving timing fidelity has always been the promise of MQA so they are now not saying something they haven't been saying all along.  What they have always purported to address were the timing issues that were the consequence of ringing artifacts introduced by ADCs.  An MQA file is supposed to have embedded metadata that will inform an MQA decoder-equipped DAC what ADC was used in the recording.  That DAC is then supposed to apply a fix to compensate for the deficiencies of the ADC.  How does this occur?  Through oversampling, a word we've seen used a lot lately.
  
 Unlike HQ Player, however, oversampling occurs only in the PCM domain and is a PCM-only format.  MQA is supposed to oversample to the capability of the DAC being used.  If it's an iPhone-type device with limited oversampling capability, improvement will be heard but only to a smaller degree.  If you have a DAC capable of higher sampling, like 768 kHz, then MQA is supposed to take advantage of that capability with even better results. R2R DACs, because of their limited ability to oversample will not be an ideal candidate for MQA.  Once again, what does better timing fidelity get you?  Depth and air and scale -- the same things that both HQ Player and the DAVE claim to improve upon.  The world has tired of flat 2-D sound.
  
 Although these 3 approaches (HQ Player, MQA, DAVE) strive to achieve the same benefit (timing fidelity) through oversampling, you will have to decide which path you will take because from my understanding, each approach is philosophically and fundamentally different and not complementary.  I have no expectation that Chord will be implementing MQA decoders in any of Rob's DACs and Rob himself has said he has no plans to do so.  Having heard an MQA demonstration with a Mytek Brooklyn DAC, which incorporates an MQA hardware decoder and is capable of 384 kHz oversampling, I was able to toggle the MQA decoder on and off and so it was easy to A/B the impact of MQA decoding and while there was a noticeable improvement in depth and air, I would say that at no time did I feel I was listening to anything as good as what I get with the DAVE.  If I am to provide my own interpretation of the situation, to ask Rob to alter the DAVE and shift away from what the DAVE does now through oversampling and instead take the MQA route would be to take a step backward.  You could argue the same thing with HQ Player.
  
 Because MQA-files are PCM files at their core, they will play back on any PCM-capable DAC including the DAVE and so there is no worry about playback compatibility.  There are MQA files you can download and listen to on the 2L test bench if anyone is interested.  As a wrapper, MQA files can be useful for DAVE owners as their compression/decompression scheme allows for the streaming of hi-res files through sites like Tidal without the need for gobs of bandwidth.   In the demo I heard at Las Vegas, using a beta version of Tidal, a 24/384 MQA file was streamed and decoded from a server in Europe with no drops or skips encountered.  
  
 Bob Stuart and company have worked hard to disseminate MQA and establish it as a standard and at CES in January, there certainly was a lot of MQA buzz.  If you are to believe Robert Harley at TAS, then you are probably thinking MQA is the best thing since sliced bread and as a standard, it is a done deal.  While Warner has signed on and more are likely to follow, it's interesting to note that so far, only 2 companies (Meridian and Mytek) are shipping MQA-enabled DACs.  Where are the rest?  As has already been stated, you are not likely to see R2R DACs touting MQA capability and the HQ Player camp probably sees no need for MQA either since they would prefer to upsample to DSD.  It was once believed that MQA decoding could take place at the music server level just like HQ Player and indeed, Auralic had announced MQA capability through a firmware upgrade for their Aries back in January.  At the 11th hour, however, they removed this feature reportedly at the request of MQA.  The rumor I heard was MQA had decided proper decoding needs to take place at the DAC and not the music server and that the DAC must have a hardware MQA decoder for this to happen.  If this is true, then MQA is not a done deal since this retrofit is probably not an easy thing to do.  Moreover, DAVINA only complicates this further as it will compete with MQA.  Why try to compensate for a technically inferior ADC when you can just build an ADC without these deficiencies?  In the same way that a bunch of movie studios signed on to support betamax when it first came out, as we know, it was VHS that eventually prevailed.


----------



## rkt31

what happened to the download link of dacs comparison ? right now i have only the recordings  made of dave's analog output as a means of experiencing the high end dacs . in India it is almost impossible to audition such an expensive gear.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

.......Even though it was agreed by all that Betamax was the superior protocol.

It seems to me that MQA is initially considered by audiophiles as a competitor to their Dac product. Particularly, it seems, for owners of Dave. It is unfortunate because it shouldn't be like that. MQA is less about resolution than it is about timing correction in my view. If MQA gives an MQA capable Dave a timing corrected master it will sound better. At least that is how I understand the process.

Timing problems have plagued studios ever since a producer started looping effects units and compression units into the mix. It can get really bad in digital especially when there is limited processing power for a complicated mix. Even with good power headroom modern DAWs have timing compensation built in. This was not always the case and has only become mainstream in the last 15-20 years. This is not a problem for classical music as the recording is simple and real world but contemporary recordings are the product of all sorts of weird and wonderful setups which include processing which may not be stereo universal in each case. Now I don't think for one moment that MQA,s mastering process can fix all ills that occur in the long recording process but I am willing to buy that they have identified one or two aspects of the mastering process that are continually misaligned in the finished digital product.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

To continue

I see Daves superior resolution as being beneficial to solving the industry limited process of d/a conversion in terms of resolution. However Dave will not correct timing errors that are frozen in the master copy. It will only serve to 'highlight' that misalignment. That is where I think MQA is coming from.


----------



## JaZZ

Let's not forget that DAVE's «reconstruction» algorithm is made to reconstruct the original signal before analogue/digital conversion. So, as I see it, it shouldn't be as sensitive to ADC imperfections as conventional DACs – hence wouldn't benefit as much from MQA.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

It would be interesting to be able to test that Jazz and I hope we get the chance one day. My listening experience with Dave so far has been enhanced to the point that I am 'more' aware of inaccuracies and weaknesses in the recording process but the resolution is so good that when the feel of the performance is hot Dave shows how superior and natural the performance was. I am far more aware of intonation errors in vocals. I can also discern that multi sampling 44.1 before it enters Dave is not as natural as keeping it at 44.1 which is the opposite of my experience before Dave. I am also more acutely aware of sloppy musicianship, in particular lack of left - right synchronicity between musicians on occasion but maybe that is because a sloppy producer ran a reverb bleed on one instrument and a multi processor chain on another instrument and panned them left and right (in other words it is timing errors in the production process accentuating a less sloppy performance). 

I guess my point is that Dave is so transparent I wonder if the benefits of MQA might be 'more' apparent.


----------



## JaZZ

Dave...
  
 ...of course DAVE is a highly revealing DAC, far from forgiving in terms of recording flaws. What I meant was that ADC imperfections in them would possibly be less of an issue due to the sophisticated filter algorithm based on the 164,000 taps, which tries to reconstruct the original analogue waveform rather than stricty relying on the digital data at hand, as with classic even-numbered oversampling. Rob has once explained that he wasn't trying to preserve the original samples exactly for this reason.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I appreciate your point Jazz and I would not be surprised at all if, due to Daves exceptional resolution, it were able present MQA files better than Meridians own flagship product.


----------



## Crgreen

I really don't know much about the technical details, but the impression I get is that. If you want an MVQ enabled DAC, it's not a retrofit or upgrade, you have to but a new DAC with the chip that will provide MVQ facilities. This might be a reason to hold fire if you're thinking of buying a new DAC. I've plumped for the DAVE (expected at the end of the month) because I was so impressed with the Hugo, but I'd assumed that it would rule out MVQ in respect of what I plan to be my last DAC. 

The other issue which struck me about MVQ is that although I can see the benefits for something like Tidal and other streaming services, I for one don't plan to start repurchasing discs or downloads of existing recordings just to have them in MVQ form. And I'm sure I'm not alone. I just don't see where a format war will get us.


----------



## Crgreen

Apologies, MQA - I go a bit dyslexic when it comes to all theses abbreviations and acronyms. My eyes just glaze over.


----------



## Mython

mython said:


> I hadn't realised how much the aspect of _timing_ fidelity is being emphasised, in the MQA promotional copy.
> 
> Since timing accuracy also happens to be a major emphasis of Rob's WTA filter approach, I am curious as to whether or not the two approaches are compatible, and I am also curious how MQA might be 'capturing' (digitising) timing details with (what _seems_ to be being implied) greater accuracy than all other existing ADC approaches.


 
  
  


mython said:


> I'm neither pro nor anti MQA, in regard to whether or not Chord 'should' or 'shouldn't' implement it, or whether or not it would be _competitively_ prudent to - I'm just curious about the technicalities underlying MQA.
> 
> I understand that they are accessing original master tapes (didn't Neil Young say he was going to do that, before his store just started selling all the same Hi-Res files as every other Hi-Res download store on planet earth?
> 
> ...


 
  
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






romaz said:


> Improving timing fidelity has always been the promise of MQA so they are now not saying something they haven't been saying all along.  What they have always purported to address were the timing issues that were the consequence of ringing artifacts introduced by ADCs.  An MQA file is supposed to have embedded metadata that will inform an MQA decoder-equipped DAC what ADC was used in the recording.  That DAC is then supposed to apply a fix to compensate for the deficiencies of the ADC.  How does this occur?  Through oversampling, a word we've seen used a lot lately.
> 
> Unlike HQ Player, however, oversampling occurs only in the PCM domain and is a PCM-only format.  MQA is supposed to oversample to the capability of the DAC being used.  If it's an iPhone-type device with limited oversampling capability, improvement will be heard but only to a smaller degree.  If you have a DAC capable of higher sampling, like 768 kHz, then MQA is supposed to take advantage of that capability with even better results. R2R DACs, because of their limited ability to oversample will not be an ideal candidate for MQA.  Once again, what does better timing fidelity get you?  Depth and air and scale -- the same things that both HQ Player and the DAVE claim to improve upon.  The world has tired of flat 2-D sound.
> 
> ...


 
  


  
  
 Quote:


romaz said:


> Why try to compensate for a technically inferior ADC when you can just build an ADC without these deficiencies?


 
  
  
 Thanks for elaborating on my musings 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 I agree that that is like _'trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear'_ (old English saying).
  
  


daveredref-iii said:


> To continue
> 
> I see Daves superior resolution as being beneficial to solving the industry limited process of d/a conversion in terms of resolution. However Dave will not correct timing errors that are frozen in the master copy. It will only serve to 'highlight' that misalignment. That is where I think MQA is coming from.


 
  
  
 Mmmm.... but Davina will.
  
  
  
  
  
  
 I am far more interested in seeing what difference (I anticipate MASSIVE) Rob's ADC (AKA 'Davina') will make to the eventual reproduction of a recorded performance, than I am in MQA 'compensating' (however cleverly it might do so) for sub-par ADC timing-resolution when transfering from an analogue master tape. That is not to say that I don't think MQA may have a valid, respectable, and useful contribution, in other regards, outside of a Chord digital ecosystem.
  
 My guess is that Davina + DAVE will perform an order of magnitude better than even the sum of each of their already-capable contributions.
  
 Exciting times ahead, and Rob, thankyou again for all you're doing to advance the state of the recording-&-playback art.
  
  
  
 .


----------



## romaz

daveredref-iii said:


> .......Even though it was agreed by all that Betamax was the superior protocol.


 
 Yes, this is true.  It goes to show that what is best and what the market accepts are not always the same and so we will need to be careful what we wish for.
  


daveredref-iii said:


> It seems to me that MQA is initially considered by audiophiles as a competitor to their Dac product. Particularly, it seems, for owners of Dave. It is unfortunate because it shouldn't be like that. MQA is less about resolution than it is about timing correction in my view. If MQA gives an MQA capable Dave a timing corrected master it will sound better. At least that is how I understand the process.


 
 Timing is a form of resolution.  It is my view that "time resolution" is the more difficult type to master and it is what separates the great DACs from the average DACs.  
  
 I believe you've missed the point of my rather long discourse because while both MQA and the DAVE both incorporate their own proprietary technologies to improve timing fidelity, the two technologies are philosophically and fundamentally different and both cannot occur at the same time with the DAVE.  MQA will choose to use the DAVE to oversample to address ringing artifacts introduced by the ADC.  Rob believes this to be irrelevant and he oversamples for completely different reasons.  Here is what Rob had to say specifically about why he oversamples compared to why MQA oversamples:
  
"Its done for a number of reasons - to reduce the timing of transients uncertainty problem, to enable the noise shapers to work at 104 MHz so that the noise shapers can reproduce depth correctly, and finally to allow no measurable noise floor modulation.
  
So there are a number of reasons why I oversample to such a high rate.
  
ADC ringing artifacts is not one of them, as that is irrelevant."
  
 Also, JaZZ is absolutely correct.  The DAVE attempts to reconstruct the original analog signal before A/D conversion which is why I think Rob believes that what MQA is trying to accomplish is "irrelevant."  Here is what Rob had to say on the Mojo thread:
  
Except the job of a DAC is *NOT* to reproduce the sampled data perfectly but to reproduce the original bandwidth limited analogue signal that was in the ADC before the signal was sampled. And to do this one must convert from a sampled signal and convert it to a continuous waveform - and that actually implies infinite oversampling, something that a R2R DAC can't do as they are limited to 16FS oversampling due to speed and glitch problems. That's one reason (there are many others too) why Mojo filters to 2048FS and has its DAC run at 104 MHz, unlike any other non Chord DAC's.
  
 Here's more:
  
For a interpolation, or more accurately reconstruction filter, if you use an infinite tap length sinc FIR filter, you will reconstruct the original analogue signal in the ADC completely perfectly with no change whatsoever. But such a filter will have an inifinite amount of post and pre ringing - and this contradiction is solved when you realise that an impulse is not a legal signal, as it contains the same energy at FS/2 as at 1 kHz - so it is not bandwidth limited which requires zero output at FS/2. The idea that pre ringing is audibly bad is mistaken as an illegal (from sampling theory) test signal is being used. The filters that have the maximum pre-ringing using a non bandwidth limited signal is actually much more accurate in that when using a proper bandwidth limited signal will give the least differenct to the original un-sampled signal.
  
So yes you are correct - I am trying to perfectly reproduce the original un-sampled analogue signal, and the best filter is one that has an infinite amount of pre-ringing using an illegal non bandwidth limited impulse response. The WTA filter is much closer to an ideal sinc function, so has huge levels of pre-ringing - but using a proper bandwidth limited signal will return a signal that is closer to being unchanged than any other reconstruction filter available today.
  
And that's the primary reason why Mojo sounds like "you are there" because it more accurately reconstructs the analogue signal before it was sampled.
  
Rob
  
 As to the specific problems he sees with current ADCs and why the DAVINA project exists, timing fidelity isn't the only problem and so it would appear that MQA only attempts to be a partial solution.  Here is what Rob had to say about the issues with current ADCs:
  
I have looked at the chips used for ADC's and the best ones offer -122 dB SNR, and THD and noise of -110dB. I am actually targeting 135 dB SNR, and THD and noise to be the same as Dave.
  
But by far the biggest problems are:
  
1. Depth perception - the work on Dave indicates that you need 350 dB capable noise shaping to accurately preserve depth - and current devices are only about -140 dB
  
2. Noise floor modulation - a chip based ADC has a lot of noise floor modulation, and I have solved this problem by using Pulse Array and discrete integrators.
  
3. Aliasing. The conventional view is that aliasing products in the 20-22.05 kHz range is inaudible. But it is not, as this aliasing errors degrade the timing of transients - which are audible.
  
I hope Davina will be less than Dave in terms of price. But since it is a technology prove of concept, its not about cost.
  
Rob
  
 The bottom line is you will need to decide which ideology to subscribe to but with Rob's DACs, you can't have both.


----------



## romaz

crgreen said:


> I really don't know much about the technical details, but the impression I get is that. If you want an MVQ enabled DAC, it's not a retrofit or upgrade, you have to but a new DAC with the chip that will provide MVQ facilities. This might be a reason to hold fire if you're thinking of buying a new DAC.


 
 Some DACs can be retrofitted.  This is what Michal Jurewicz told me he did with the Mytek Manhattan and this DAC will become MQA-enabled next month.  It's true, however, that you can't do it through a software/firmware upgrade because the decoder is a physical piece.


----------



## Crgreen

I'll be interested to see how many manufacturers offer it as a retrofit rather than a "you'll just have to buy our new DAC" campaign. If it does take off, no doubt it will become a standard feature, though not in Chord products I suspect.


----------



## romaz

crgreen said:


> I'll be interested to see how many manufacturers offer it as a retrofit rather than a "you'll just have to buy our new DAC" campaign. If it does take off, no doubt it will become a standard feature, though not in Chord products I suspect.


 
 I suspect for most cases, companies will try to sell you a new DAC and so it will be used as a marketing ploy to replace what you have now.  For many DACs, MQA will likely serve as an improvement.  As a DAVE owner, I still see benefits.  If Tidal starts streaming hi-res via MQA which is the plan, that seems like a good thing.


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## DaveRedRef-III

Crgreen
This is not a format war. MQA is a mastering and packaging protocol. Dave is not a format or protocol. Any Dac can be adjusted to recognise and process tha MQA protocol if the manufacturer desires it. The question is if the company perceive there to be sufficient benefit in performance and commercially. I do not doubt that some will see a benefit and some won't. 

Regarding upgrades, some manufacturers are already upgrading 'at their own cost' which would suggest the upgrade is hardly earth shattering in its complexity. So it seems MQA does not require another Dac if the manufacturer is happy to upgrade.

Romaz
See above. If Chord do not wish to implement it, that is not because it cannot be done. It's down to Chord to make a decision as to whether it is desirable to back the protocol. If they don't then that is their commercial decision but it seems some highly respected industry professionals ranging from reviewers to manufacturers to studio producers to content service providers and music companies are running with it and recommending others do. Whether it will get sufficient backing to change the industry is another story. As you pointed out with VHS and Betamax, politics and available content will have a big say. This is not just a performance decision manufacturers, it has potential commercial implications also. I think these are exciting times for digital users. There is some great work going down right now.


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## Crgreen

Not a format war between MQA and Dave (which isn't a format) but with non-MQA files.

Regarding upgrades, the issue will be, can you send your existing DAC back for the upgrade, at a small cost, or will you have to buy a new, upgraded version?


----------



## paulchiu

Pardon my lack of understanding for MQA, but isn't this another compressed delivery structure for streaming?
 Why would this matter to core users of uber DACs like DAVE?
 With DAVE and other DACs, are we not looking for the best sources to play?  Like CDs, Blu-ray, master tape, etc?  Why are we looking to improve the sound of compressed material?


----------



## Mython

Been listening to the following tracks this evening (Redbook, not youtube) and I'd forgotten how nice they sound. so you lucky DAVE-owners (especially those running DAVE through loudspeakers) might like to give them a whirl (*ideally* in proper Redbook format):
  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oydj5H9C-no
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pklluASxfA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxZP6f0jpWM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rM11OD_umkc   (more 'amped' version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU57QwLIbpE )


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks for that Mython. I am a big Robben Ford fan and also have that Knopfler album too.


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> Pardon my lack of understanding for MQA, but isn't this another compressed delivery structure for streaming?
> Why would this matter to core users of uber DACs like DAVE?
> With DAVE and other DACs, are we not looking for the best sources to play?  Like CDs, Blu-ray, master tape, etc?  Why are we looking to improve the sound of compressed material?


 
 MQA seeks to accomplish 2 things:
  
 1.  Correct for ringing artifacts introduced by the ADC that MQA believes have a negative impact on time resolution.
 2.  Serve as a file wrapper that results in a smaller file size when encapsulated but then returns the original lossless file when the encapsulation is removed.  The file remains encapsulated during streaming allowing for the delivery of high-resolution files (up to 24/352.8) without requiring large amounts of bandwidth.  The potential benefit is that you now have the ability to stream DXD-sized files (potentially hundreds of MBs in size) through your iPhone with a simple 4G cellular connection.  During playback, however, the file returns to its normal size and so what the DAC ends up seeing is the original lossless file.
  
 #2 would be the only potential benefit for users of the DAVE (or your Nagra HD, since this is a DAC that upsamples to DSD).


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> MQA seeks to accomplish 2 things:
> 
> 1.  Correct for ringing artifacts introduced by the ADC that MQA believes have a negative impact on time resolution.
> 2.  Serve as a file wrapper that results in a smaller file size when encapsulated but then returns the original lossless file when the encapsulation is removed.  The file remains encapsulated during streaming allowing for the delivery of high-resolution files (up to 24/352.8) without requiring large amounts of bandwidth.  The potential benefit is that you now have the ability to stream DXD-sized files (potentially hundreds of MBs in size) through your iPhone with a simple 4G cellular connection.  During playback, however, the file returns to its normal size and so what the DAC ends up seeing is the original lossless file.
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Roy.


----------



## romaz

Sonore microRendu + iFi 9V power supply + SonicTransporter arrived today.  The Sonicorbiter SE is next to the microRendu for reference:
  

  
 Not wishing to go too far off topic on the DAVE thread, I posted my early impressions here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/787020/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box/315#post_12575069


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## Samuel Snoopy

I found this interesting article by John Siau on MQA:

http://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/163302855-is-mqa-doa


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## paulchiu

DAVE with legs!


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## romaz

paulchiu said:


> DAVE with legs!


 
 Very nice, Paul.  And you gave it a space right next to your Nagra HD.  How do you decide which DAC to listen to?


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## paulchiu

romaz said:


> Very nice, Paul.  And you gave it a space right next to your Nagra HD.  How do you decide which DAC to listen to?


 
  
 I need them close so I can A/B with them over the next month.
  
 Tonight, I listen to 1980's J-pop.  Some 明菜から… by Akina Nakamori.  Her strong deep voice sings through the DAVE making me remember how my LPs sounded on my Technics turntable back in college.  Of course with the DAVE, I am hearing far more details than those small Spica speakers I had then.  Scary details like the singer licking her lips and sometimes the breathing gets outta hand.
  
 I cannot seem to get toslink to work with Audirvana or Media Center.


----------



## shuttlepod

romaz said:


> Sonore microRendu + iFi 9V power supply + SonicTransporter arrived today.  The Sonicorbiter SE is next to the microRendu for reference:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Well, Roy, even with less than ten hours on the microRendu, it seems you have answered, to your satisfaction, the question of whether DAVE is sensitive to various source/server components. Thanks for sharing your impressions and comparisons. And for $640, the mR would appear to be a no-brainer purchase, with extra $ going to a nice power supply. At some point during the next month, I'll get to listen to a friend's mR in my system and will share any insights. Assuming I like what I hear, I'll probably wait until John Swensen's "mystery" power supply comes out later this summer before taking the plunge.


----------



## Pier-Fi

romaz said:


> MQA seeks to accomplish 2 things:
> 
> 1.  Correct for ringing artifacts introduced by the ADC that MQA believes have a negative impact on time resolution.
> 2.  Serve as a file wrapper that results in a smaller file size when encapsulated but then returns the original lossless file when the encapsulation is removed.  The file remains encapsulated during streaming allowing for the delivery of high-resolution files (up to 24/352.8) without requiring large amounts of bandwidth.  The potential benefit is that you now have the ability to stream DXD-sized files (potentially hundreds of MBs in size) through your iPhone with a simple 4G cellular connection.  During playback, however, the file returns to its normal size and so what the DAC ends up seeing is the original lossless file.
> ...




3. It authenticates, meaning: buy an MQA compliant DAC if you want to access the high resolution hidden "file". Bob Stuart has admitted that he wanted to offer the experience of high resolution while keeping the original high resolution file off the audiences' hands. This new "revolutionary" format is already dead.


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## Sonic77

paulchiu said:


> I need them close so I can A/B with them over the next month.
> 
> Tonight, I listen to 1980's J-pop.  Some 明菜から… by Akina Nakamori.  Her strong deep voice sings through the DAVE making me remember how my LPs sounded on my Technics turntable back in college.  Of course with the DAVE, I am hearing far more details than those small Spica speakers I had then.  Scary details like the singer licking her lips and sometimes the breathing gets outta hand.



I know what you mean, I jumped out of my chair a couple of times, Dave brings out a lot of details, but with mR, wow, scary. LoL


----------



## paulchiu

Been using the Mapleshade  14 footer toslink with Macbook Pro Retina and DAVE for 6 hours using iTunes, Audirvana and Media Center.  
  
*1. Using iTunes*
 All playable iTunes tracks, up to 192k are playable but shown on the DAVE as "44.1k"
  
  
*2. Using both Audirvana and JRiver Media Center*
 I could not find "Optical" in the Preference or options, so neither player works with Toslink.  (since, I tried another optical cable, the same results)
  
*3. Strange thing when I tried Optical-2 input on DAVE with Audirvana*
 the display flashes 176k for many seconds.  Since, I now get a steady "no input"
  
  
 Summary:  ITunes plays with Toslink on DAVE, but all tracks at 44.1k
 Cannot get Audirvana or Media Center to work with Toslink.
  
@Rob Watts 
 Rob, What do you suggest?
  
 Thanks
  
 Paul


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> Well, Roy, even with less than ten hours on the microRendu, it seems you have answered, to your satisfaction, the question of whether DAVE is sensitive to various source/server components. Thanks for sharing your impressions and comparisons. And for $640, the mR would appear to be a no-brainer purchase, with extra $ going to a nice power supply. At some point during the next month, I'll get to listen to a friend's mR in my system and will share any insights. Assuming I like what I hear, I'll probably wait until John Swensen's "mystery" power supply comes out later this summer before taking the plunge.


 
 I maintain the opinion that all sources (at least all sources I have tried) sound very good with the DAVE and so to this extent, the DAVE is pretty well immune to "bad" sources but there are exceptional sources that can and do sound better and I am convinced that this is not merely a bit-perfect issue.  I don't believe it's a jitter issue as I have convinced myself the DAVE truly is immune to source jitter (i.e. my Oppo/Tidal example is proof of this for me) and so this leaves me to believe that source RF is the issue despite the DAVE's galvanic isolation,  Rob has suggested RF is difficult to completely mitigate against and compares it to a "fungus" that can't be completely eradicated.  The mR uses 10 regulators in its design from it's ethernet PHY to its USB hub, with each regulator providing some level of isolation and so as each of the components within the mR create their own RF that adds pollution to the signal, there are enough regulators in the chain to mitigate it as it is created.  The other supporting evidence for RF being the culprit is that a really good power supply (defined by John Swenson as one with very low output impedance) is supposed to make a significant difference with SQ.  I made an inquiry on the CA forum why this makes a difference but I got no response.  Paul Hynes, who will be building my power supply explained it well, however.  The lower the output impedance of a power supply (in the ideal world, it would be zero), the higher the PSRR (power supply rejection ratio) will be and in the ideal world, PSRR would be infinity.  PSRR is a measure of a power supply's immunity to the powered circuit that feeds it and an infinite PSRR would result in complete isolation to that circuit regardless of how dirty that circuit may be.  Because an infinite PSRR is not possible, no power supply can be completely isolated against the powered circuit but certainly, this is what you strive to achieve.  Again, this speaks to RF in the supply line as being the problem.
  
 Considering John Swenson's mystery power supply is supposed to cost less than $500, this will probably be the best value proposition although how will it stack up against the best solutions?Even John doesn't know since he doesn't yet have a working prototype.
  
 As of this morning, the mR continues to improve.


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> Been using the Mapleshade  14 footer toslink with Macbook Pro Retina and DAVE for 6 hours using iTunes, Audirvana and Media Center.
> 
> *1. Using iTunes*
> All playable iTunes tracks, up to 192k are playable but shown on the DAVE as "44.1k"
> ...


 
 Paul, I don't believe these are DAVE issues.  iTunes is capable of up to 24/96 playback on a Mac but you have to configure this in Audio MIDI (found in your Utilities folder).  Unless you change the default, all your high res files will be down sampled to 16/44.  With regards to Audirvana, I can't comment because I don't use this software but if you can play music through toslink on iTunes, then you know you at least have a viable optical connection with the DAVE which would suggest this is an Audirvana problem.  It's probably a configuration setting you will have to change.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> Paul, I don't believe these are DAVE issues.  iTunes is capable of up to 24/96 playback on a Mac but you have to configure this in Audio MIDI (found in your Utilities folder).  Unless you change the default, all your high res files will be down sampled to 16/44.  With regards to Audirvana, I can't comment because I don't use this software but if you can play music through toslink on iTunes, then you know you at least have a viable optical connection with the DAVE which would suggest this is an Audirvana problem.  It's probably a configuration setting you will have to change.


 
  
 Thanks Roy.  I am going 30 hours now without sleep.  Sorry if I am not careful with my wordimg.
  
 I suspect my DAVE (now with pretty legs) is working perfectly and my issues is with supporting software.
 I will continue to tinker.
  
 BTW Roy, do you leave the display on always on DAVE?  Any fear of burn-in?
 The bottom of DAVE gets warmer than the top. I realize this with the stand.  So, the stand may help with sound.
 (hint hint)
  
 Paul


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> Thanks Roy.  I am going 30 hours now without sleep.  Sorry if I am not careful with my wordimg.
> 
> I suspect my DAVE (now with pretty legs) is working perfectly and my issues is with supporting software.
> I will continue to tinker.
> ...


 
 It's a great looking stand.  I would happily buy it for that reason alone but I am happy with what I have.
  
 I use setting #4 where the screen blanks after a few seconds but I don't know if this matters as far as longevity.  LCD/LED panels aren't prone to image "burn-in" like plasma and OLED displays are.  The typical MTBF (mean time between failure) of modern LCDs is supposed to be well over 50,000 hours.  The entire chassis of the DAVE was designed to serve as a heat sink and so it is expected to get warm and as long as heat can dissipate at any point from the chassis, I think you're fine.  Heat output from the DAVE has never been an issue for me and at no point is mine hot to the touch.  The DAVE comes with a 5-year warranty which is pretty good assurance.
  
 As far as helping SQ, many believe components sound best warm (approaching hot) which is why many amp makers advocate you keep your solid state amps left on all the time so they're ready to go when you are.


----------



## Sonic77

Just received my ship notice for the Sonore Signature series power supply. I'll be sure to leave some impressions after I have a chance to listen next week.


----------



## Rob Watts

romaz said:


> I maintain the opinion that all sources (at least all sources I have tried) sound very good with the DAVE and so to this extent, the DAVE is pretty well immune to "bad" sources but there are exceptional sources that can and do sound better and I am convinced that this is not merely a bit-perfect issue.  I don't believe it's a jitter issue as I have convinced myself the DAVE truly is immune to source jitter (i.e. my Oppo/Tidal example is proof of this for me) and so this leaves me to believe that source RF is the issue despite the DAVE's galvanic isolation,  Rob has suggested RF is difficult to completely mitigate against and compares it to a "fungus" that can't be completely eradicated.  The mR uses 10 regulators in its design from it's ethernet PHY to its USB hub, with each regulator providing some level of isolation and so as each of the components within the mR create their own RF that adds pollution to the signal, there are enough regulators in the chain to mitigate it as it is created.  The other supporting evidence for RF being the culprit is that a really good power supply (defined by John Swenson as one with very low output impedance) is supposed to make a significant difference with SQ.  I made an inquiry on the CA forum why this makes a difference but I got no response.  Paul Hynes, who will be building my power supply explained it well, however.  The lower the output impedance of a power supply (in the ideal world, it would be zero), the higher the PSRR (power supply rejection ratio) will be and in the ideal world, PSRR would be infinity.  PSRR is a measure of a power supply's immunity to the powered circuit that feeds it and an infinite PSRR would result in complete isolation to that circuit regardless of how dirty that circuit may be.  Because an infinite PSRR is not possible, no power supply can be completely isolated against the powered circuit but certainly, this is what you strive to achieve.  Again, this speaks to RF in the supply line as being the problem.
> 
> Considering John Swenson's mystery power supply is supposed to cost less than $500, this will probably be the best value proposition although how will it stack up against the best solutions?Even John doesn't know since he doesn't yet have a working prototype.
> 
> As of this morning, the mR continues to improve.


 
 Agreed that jitter is not an issue with Dave; nor with any of my other DAC's. We can see this on the measured performance with Dave, as there simply are not any artefacts:
  

  
 The reason why I am so confident that jitter is a non issue is because of a number of things:
  
 1. USB operation gets its timing from the local Dave oscillator, and incoming data gets re-locked to the local clock.
  
 2. When I add 2 uS (that's 2,000,000 pS of jitter) to the data input from the AP using optical or coax I measure absolutely no change whatsoever. Now that on its own is not enough, as I have had situations before where unmeasurable effects are audible - but not concerning jitter. I have always been able to hear an effect then measure it.
  
 3. One way that an incoming data can effect the SQ is down to ground plane noise, and in the past this used to be a big issue, both in measurement and SQ. And it's technically possible that ground plane and power supply noise can affect the SQ (I have seen this many times before). But in the case of my modern DAC's I have been able to eliminate this issue by a combination of local RF filtering on power supplies, double layer ground planing,use of efficient local SMPS, and power efficient FPGA's, plus careful layout. Now this issue used to be a nightmare, particularly with the FPGA, when my DSP cores used power hungry FPGA fabric. I would have to construct a DSP core by creating my own multipliers (today I use dedicated FPFA resources that are extremely power efficient), and every time a new place and route occurred, I would get different sound and different measurements. Today this situation never happens for lots of reasons - better design of the ground planes, better local RF filtering, better quality of RF filters, and dramatically lower signal induced noise (actually this is thousands of times lower than ten years ago) from the FPGA. Today, different place and routes show no SQ changes, or measured changes. What I am alluding to here is that the noise from a jittery source can't upset the sound quality through induced noise, as it is now (as far as I can tell) completely isolated - its also one of the benefits of the USB galvanic isolation in that the USB processor gnd and PSU noise is isolated from Dave.
  
 4. Pulse Array DAC is innately jitter insensitive. What is not readily appreciated is that different DAC architectures have very different sensitivity to clock jitter. DSD is horribly sensitive to jitter, R2R DAC's are very sensitive, but pulse array is innately insensitive. The reason for this is that signal switching activity is completely signal independent - it switches in exactly same way whether its reproducing 0 of fully positive or negative. Because of this, when I get some clock jitter, it only creates a fixed noise. Now one of the really cool things that happens today is that PC resources and simulation tools are so good today, in that I can write a simulation, and add some jitter to the simulation, then measure the results using an FFT. From this, I can see exactly what jitter and only jitter does - and this technique has revealed a few surprises. But what it has done is proven that adding random jitter creates zero signal correlated effects to pulse array - no distortion, noise floor modulation at all - just an insignificant level of unvarying random noise. This does not happen with other DAC architectures, as you will then get significant noise floor modulation, distortion and noise shaper related noise. This is because with the other types of DACs, the switching activity is signal related. So DSD has maximum switching reproducing zero, and no switching at 100% modulation. R2R has no activity for zero, but considerable switching activity when the signal changes.
  
 As to RF noise yes it is like a fungal infection. In the mid 80's, when I began to appreciate the importance of RF noise, I created a RF noise mains filter, in order to eliminate the SQ changes that mains cable was making. This ended up being a scary design - a cascade of inductors and capacitors, with filtering from 100 kHz to over 1GHz. I even had to make my own PTFE air cored inductors to get the performance I needed. But it worked - you could absolutely not hear the effects of different mains cable before the filter, but I had to use insane levels of filtering.
  
 So I know how crazily sensitive things are to RF noise, which is why I can't say for absolute certainty that RF noise from Dave or from the sources may or may not affect your system - simply as most power amplifiers are very RF sensitive. So it really is a case of YMWV. But I would like to make a few suggestions:
  
 1. PSU design - as far as impedance is concerned, forget it in relation to RF noise. Now impedance is an important issue, but it has no bearing on RF noise. It can be important in that signal currents will cause distortion due to the OP impedance. That's why the reference power supply for the pulse array is less than 0.0005 ohms for each and every flip flop as that is an important source of distortion. But it has no bearing on RF noise, that is another issue. But today, filtering within the DAC can be done to a very high level of performance with modern SMD capacitors, inductors and ferrite beads. 
  
 2. Source - my advice with Dave is to use a source that is convenient for you. So far, in my system - and again YMMV, I have failed to hear any significant difference between different sources.
  
 3. RF noise in terms of SQ. When you reduce RF noise, things sound softer and warmer and smoother. Bass is rounder with less slam and impact. Now if it is a bit perfect input source you are making changes, the only thing that can make a difference to the SQ is RF noise, so go for the warmer and softer sound - as that is the most transparent - even if it sounds too smooth! If it is too soft, don't worry - it is not a problem - you just need to then improve transparency elsewhere in your system - such as better cables, changing where the loudspeakers are sited, different HP, EQ etc. One of the profound problems we have with audio is that making fundamental improvements may affect the balance of the system, so it is less optimum. The trick is to understand when you have indeed made a fundamental improvement but that gives you an unbalanced sound then make other changes in your system to restore the overall balance.
  
 Happy listening, Rob


----------



## romaz

rob watts said:


> 1. PSU design - as far as impedance is concerned, forget it in relation to RF noise. Now impedance is an important issue, but it has no bearing on RF noise. It can be important in that signal currents will cause distortion due to the OP impedance. That's why the reference power supply for the pulse array is less than 0.0005 ohms for each and every flip flop as that is an important source of distortion. But it has no bearing on RF noise, that is another issue. But today, filtering within the DAC can be done to a very high level of performance with modern SMD capacitors, inductors and ferrite beads.


 
 Thank you, Rob!  Are you suggesting that the distortion produced by the source or its power supply can affect the DAVE?  Could this be the reason for the sound quality differences one might hear between two sources that each have bit-perfect output?  Clearly, the SQ differences I am hearing are not just improved smoothness but improved dynamics and a much more open soundstage.  Once again, I want to stress that I have not heard a source sound badly with the DAVE and so this is quite an accomplishment but I have done blind testing this evening just to be sure I'm not imagining things and 100% of the time (5/5 tries), I am correctly picking out one source over the other.


----------



## agisthos

What a brilliant and revealing post. Learning so much here.
  
 Rob you mentioned earlier, switching power regulators seemed to work better than linear power regulators, and you had figured out why. It would be great to know...


----------



## paulchiu

Back to using AQ Diamond USB.  Did not find much difference using Curious Cables plus Regen.
  
 Paul


----------



## Rob Watts

romaz said:


> Thank you, Rob!  Are you suggesting that the distortion produced by the source or its power supply can affect the DAVE?  Could this be the reason for the sound quality differences one might hear between two sources that each have bit-perfect output?  Clearly, the SQ differences I am hearing are not just improved smoothness but improved dynamics and a much more open soundstage.  Once again, I want to stress that I have not heard a source sound badly with the DAVE and so this is quite an accomplishment but I have done blind testing this evening just to be sure I'm not imagining things and 100% of the time (5/5 tries), I am correctly picking out one source over the other.


 
 I would be surprised if Dave was sensitive to RF noise from the source via the mains - but that's not saying it isn't 100%. I don't think it is a significant issue, as I travel around with Dave, and via headphones I hear no difference - and the mains quality varies enormously from building to building, country to country, and Dave via headphones always sounds the same. I can remember my system varying all the time, with best sound at 2am with all the lights off - this was before I understood how important RF noise actually was. Now, with extensive RF filtering, I do not get these changes. But I had planned to listen to different mains cables, but have decided to make some up myself, as the available cables I am not 100% happy with from a RF POV.
  
 The actual distortion mechanism is noise floor modulation - random RF noise gets into the analogue electronics, and at RF frequency things are very non-linear. Then you get intermodulation distortion with the audio signal and the random RF noise, giving you random intermodulation products that is in the audio bandwidth. So noise pumps up and down with the audio signal, making it sound harder and brighter. Unfortunately, the brain is very sensitive to this effect.
  
 When you were doing your listening, was this with Dave on its own via headphones?
  
 Cheers Rob


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

"If it is too soft, don't worry - it is not a problem - you just need to then improve transparency elsewhere in your system - such as better cables, changing where the loudspeakers are sited, different HP, EQ etc. One of the profound problems we have with audio is that making fundamental improvements may affect the balance of the system, so it is less optimum. The trick is to understand when you have indeed made a fundamental improvement but that gives you an unbalanced sound then make other changes in your system to restore the overall balance."


This is good advice Rob I think, particularly with speaker setup. I wonder how many systems out there are seriously underperforming simply due to bad speaker setup. I would say that with Dave the sound is complimented by very focussed tweeters. Wide dispersion tweeters hide the incredible accuracy of Dave, even modern ones like Kef's Uni driver. I had a pair of their previous Reference speakers to compare with the current version and imo Kef have taken a step backward in class leading accuracy. Easy to setup the latest speakers yes but at the cost of separation. I currently use the Sonus Faber Olympica and that tweeter is like a laser beam by comparison and setup is accurate to about 1/64". It is worth taking the time to get it right though in order to get the best out of Dave. to dial them in I use acoustic tracks particularly where the acoustic instrument has been panned wide as it is easier to hear when you have dialled in the reflection. I am sure there are many other very focused tweeters out there, not to mention the option of electrostatics. This for me though is one of the standout features of Dave in that you can have digital sound focused like never before and it isn't edgy. In the old days people would look to match things in order to blunt the focus and go easy on the ears. No longer necessary imo.

Edit: That's 64th of inch on front spike adjustment


----------



## Rob Watts

agisthos said:


> What a brilliant and revealing post. Learning so much here.
> 
> Rob you mentioned earlier, switching power regulators seemed to work better than linear power regulators, and you had figured out why. It would be great to know...


 
 Yes, it was a big surprise to me. I have been resistant to using switchers inside DAC's, for a long time, as after all everybody knows linear is better, due to lower RF noise.
  
 But with the Hugo design, I had to use switchers extensively, due to efficiency and battery life. Today one can get very high speed > 1MHz very efficient switchers, in tiny packages. And listening to it against the linear regulators gave a big improvement in SQ - a lot smoother and warmer. The act of using a switcher forces you to use more RF filters, and that on its own improves the sound quality. Moreover, the power efficiency benefits also have measurable SQ improvements too - with Dave the FPGA core current is 5A - having 5A at 5V is a lot of weakly signal correlated current floating around from a linear supply. But using a switcher means it is now only 1A and because of the activity of the inductors, input and output filters, is much less signal correlated, and so has less ability to corrupt the analogue output stages, and then gives measurable improvements. I do tests to assess ground plane noise, and before there were significant measurable problems, now I get nothing.
  
 I must say these benefits was a big surprise. It teaches us an important lesson - thinking something must be better because of XYZ is often a mistake. You have to do the work, do very careful listening tests, then come to a conclusion.
  
 Rob


----------



## shuttlepod

I have to admit I am a little confused regarding several of these issues that we've been discussing. 
  
 On the issue of the importance of impedance and power supplies, Rob says "forget it" as it is irrelevant to RF generation. Paul Hynes (as reported by Roy), who is an expert power supply designer, says it is critical and the lower impedance, the greater rejection of RF from the source. Both can't be right, can they? Or is there a way to reconcile these statements?
  
 On the question of whether sonic quality varies with the quality of the power cable, Rob says that he has found essentially no variance with DAVE on his world travels. But Roy reports hearing differences with different power cables, most especially with the High Fidelity Cables power cable, and more so when paired with an HFC power conditioner. Of course it is doubtful that Rob has heard that particular power cable and power conditioner. 
  
 On the question of sources, Rob basically says, don't worry about it too much with DAVE, use what is convenient. Roy and others report hearing significant differences from one source to another, to the extent of being able to consistently discriminate among sources in blind testing. Maybe this is just a question of degree or it can be chalked up to different listeners, but still . . .
  
 Finally, the question of switching power supplies vs. linear power supplies raises a question in my mind about the benefits of using a linear power supply with something like the microRendu (or any other component in an audio system). If it is difficult to shield other components in the system from RF generated by linear supplies, are the potential benefits of using a linear supply with something like the microRendu outweighed by the potential RF and/or magnetic pollution caused by such supplies? Does it just come down to how well the designer of the linear supply has shielded the supply from this type of pollution?
  
 I don't claim any expertise (far from it!) on any of these issues, so I won't be offering any opinions of my own. Are other folks reading the various statements and findings discussed in this thread at least a little confused as well?


----------



## nepherte

I find them very contradicting. No idea who is right or wrong. But eventually the only thing that matters is what you hear yourself. On the other hand, It's rather expensive to verify everything on your own


----------



## shuttlepod

nepherte said:


> I find them very contradicting. No idea who is right or wrong. But eventually the only thing that matters is what you hear yourself. On the other hand, It's rather expensive to verify everything on your own


 

 Very true. I rely on forums like this, however, to try to minimize the expense of the audition process and learn as much as I can. It's an imperfect process, but I guess it mirrors life in that sense.


----------



## Articnoise

shuttlepod said:


> I have to admit I am a little confused regarding several of these issues that we've been discussing.
> 
> On the issue of the importance of impedance and power supplies, Rob says "forget it" as it is irrelevant to RF generation. Paul Hynes (as reported by Roy), who is an expert power supply designer, says it is critical and the lower impedance, the greater rejection of RF from the source. Both can't be right, can they? Or is there a way to reconcile these statements?
> 
> ...


 
  

 Good questions. Maybe one person’s non sensitive to power cable etc etc. is another person’s immune to power cable etc. etc.


----------



## romaz

rob watts said:


> When you were doing your listening, was this with Dave on its own via headphones?


 
 Yes, Rob, during my blind listening, headphones were connected direct to DAVE and I could hear a difference that was more subtle but on 3/3 occasions, I correctly picked out one source over the other.  As I was confident I could hear an even more prominent difference on speakers, I blind tested here also and on 2/2 occasions, I was able to correctly pick out one source over the other.  To be honest, there's no need to blind test because the improvement with the microRendu is quite evident.  While more subtle, I can hear differences among different USB cables also although this evaluation was not blinded.
  
 As I stated, the beguiling thing about the DAVE is that nothing sounds bad and so when not comparing one source against another, all my brain and my heart tell me is that I am hearing something wonderful and like you, I hear no variance whether I'm listening at 12 noon or at 12 midnight.  In direct comparison, however, there is no doubt in my mind that certain bit-perfect sources sound different (better) than others.


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> I have to admit I am a little confused regarding several of these issues that we've been discussing.
> 
> On the issue of the importance of impedance and power supplies, Rob says "forget it" as it is irrelevant to RF generation. Paul Hynes (as reported by Roy), who is an expert power supply designer, says it is critical and the lower impedance, the greater rejection of RF from the source. Both can't be right, can they? Or is there a way to reconcile these statements?
> 
> ...


 
 To be upfront, I haven't received my Paul Hynes supply yet and what sounds good in theory and what may be a prominent chasm with another DAC may be only a minor improvement with the DAVE, I'm not sure.  I will find out in about 6 weeks.  As I stated, the difference I am hearing between an inexpensive HD Plex linear PSU and the iFi supply that came with my microRendu is very small with a slight preference for the iFi.
  
 I also don't want anyone to have the impression that Paul Hynes is saying one thing and Rob Watts is saying something contradictory because if you read my post carefully, you will see that I made the speculation that low output impedance and RF are directly related.  Specifically, here is what Paul Hynes has to say about output impedance:
  
 "To ensure no interaction with the powered circuit, an ideal power supply, should have no output voltage fluctuations under any load conditions, which means that the output impedance should be zero at all frequencies of operation. You can't generate a voltage across zero impedance. Also, it should not allow interference to break through from other sources like the supply line, such as rectifier diode switching, digital clocking and radio frequency interference (RFI) etc via the mains supply. This implies that the power supply should have infinite PSRR of its own power source.
  
Unfortunately, due to the limits of the various power supply design options available, power supply interaction will occur. The level of interaction is governed by the ability of the power supply to approach the ideal performance of zero output impedance, and infinite supply rejection of it's power source, at all frequencies of operation. It is logical to conclude that the better the power supply performance in these areas, the better the audio performance. Practical application proves this to be true.

Any regulator design worthy of consideration in high performance audio systems must offer a low output impedance over a very wide bandwidth (much wider than the audio bandwidth to deal with digital and RF interference). It should also have a high slew rate, fast rise-time and fast settling time to control the regulator output voltage during fast varying load current transients. It should be noticeably faster than the circuit to be powered to avoid load induced output fluctuations. It should also be quiet enough not to compromise the noise performance of the audio circuits it powers."
  
 Here are Paul's measurements on his power supplies:
  
 Here are the NF at 10Hz to 100 KHz:
 PR3 series reg – 44nV/sqrt. Hz
 ALW series reg – 70nV/sqrt. Hz
 (40 nV/rtHz  = 5 uVrms).
 Measured from DC to 100 KHz the output impedance remains below 3 
 milliohms and the supply line rejection exceeds 80 dB. Regulation 
 operating bandwidth is from DC to approx 300 MHz allowing for device 
 tolerances. Transient response for a 5A load current change is typically 
 <100nanoseconds and the settling time is also <100nanoseconds. Transient 
 current delivery for PR3HD modules >30A.
  
 As you can see, his supplies have a noise floor in the 5 uV range and have an output impedance of <3 milliohms across a very broad frequency spectrum and according to John Swenson, this is "superb" as far as the microRendu is concerned.  If the output impedance used in the switching power supply of the DAVE is <0.5 milliohms, obviously that is even more stellar.  As far as linear vs switching, it is clear to me that both can be very very good.  There is the assumption that switching power supplies are horrible because they backwash noise into the circuit which can negatively impact your other sources.  According to Alex Crespi and John Swenson, so can most linear power supplies.
  
 I want to re-iterate that all my sources sound excellent with the DAVE.  Unfortunately, I am stricken with the disease of not wanting to leave well enough alone.  If I had to live with a basic Mac and $10 USB cable, I could and be very happy.  I certainly wouldn't spend a lot of money on a source but for the asking price of the microRendu, I am finding it to be unquestionably worthwhile.  
  
 As for High Fidelity cables, this is a different story.  This one is proving to be a game changer.  Yes, their CT-1 power chord and MC-6 Hemisphere line conditioner make a very worthwhile difference in my system but it is their analog cables that are making the largest difference and this applies to both their interconnects and to the prototype headphone device I am testing.


----------



## Sonic77

I'm getting a power source for the micro Rendu, and If I hear a difference, then there is a difference, somewhere somehow, I'll let my ears be the judge, if you disagree fine, go jump in a lake.


----------



## romaz

sonic77 said:


> I'm getting a power source for the micro Rendu, and If I hear a difference, then there is a difference, somewhere somehow, I'll let my ears be the judge, if you disagree fine, go jump in a lake.


 
 I am very much looking forward to what you have to say about the Sonore Signature PSU.


----------



## romaz

Shuttlepod just made me aware of another review of the microRendu by Hanz Beekhuyzen.  The specific relevance of this review is that he is using the microRendu on a Hugo (and also on a TT) and in his opinion, the microRendu was superior to his other sources.  The Hugo is supposed to sound best using the SPDIF connection and in his opinion, with the microRendu on USB, it is still sounding superior to his other sources even when those sources are connected to the preferred SPDIF input.  If I have interpreted him correctly, he also indicated that on the TT, even though there is galvanic isolation on the USB port, the microRendu is distancing itself from his other servers.  It is clear his experience is mirroring mine and Sonic77s experience with the DAVE and that an exceptionally designed source can sound superior.  Here is the link to that review (thanks, Jon!).  If you want to skip straight to his listening impressions, they begin at 7:08:
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XRi9utNBl4


----------



## tkteo

> Few days ago,HeadphoneClub website(A Chinese audiophiles website) hold a "Blind Listening Test",Name: Delta-Sigma Vs. R2R.
> 
> http://www.headphoneclub.com/thread-418239-1-1.html
> 
> ...


 
  
 I wasn't aware that Mr Watts' DAC designs are Delta-Sigma. Isn't the DSP section of the DAVE, Hugo, etc 48-bit?


----------



## theveterans

> I wasn't aware that Mr Watts' DAC designs are Delta-Sigma. Isn't the DSP section of the DAVE, Hugo, etc 48-bit?


 
  
 It is Delta Sigma, but Chord uses custom delta sigma implementation so they don't use off the shelf DACs. I'll reference you to this post for more info: http://www.head-fi.org/t/702787/chord-hugo/4305#post_10621034
  
 PS. Someone knowledgeable should correct me if necessary: that post doesn't mention that some R2R DAC designs like those from Schiit also employ proprietary signal filtering (functionally similar to WTA filter?) which is also represented by "tap counts". Schiit posted that the Bifrost R2R gets 9000 taps while Gungnir R2R and Yggradsil have 18000 taps. This just shows that with custom chip implementation, one can achieve greater filter tap length.


----------



## x RELIC x

tkteo said:


> I wasn't aware that Mr Watts' DAC designs are Delta-Sigma. Isn't the DSP section of the DAVE, Hugo, etc 48-bit?




AFAIK his designs aren't really traditional DS at all - or at least if they were to be classified they are DS on mega steroids. They use his WTA filter in the ridiculously powerful FPGA (166 DSP cores in the DAVE) to handle the math and that sends the filtered signal to the Pulse Array DACs (which I believe he invented), which are inherently much less noisy, to output the analogue signal. DS typically does this all in one noisy chip (the biggest advantage here is cost, not fidelity) with much more limited processing power. In simplistic terms, many DS designs are built up around the shortcomings of the all in one chip format vs dealing with audio fidelity from the beginning, which is what the WTA filter and Pulse Array DACs do in Rob's designs. Of course Rob would be better able to explain it than I can. The take away I get is you really can't classify his DAC designs as DS and certainly not R2R.


----------



## Rob Watts

romaz said:


> Yes, Rob, during my blind listening, headphones were connected direct to DAVE and I could hear a difference that was more subtle but on 3/3 occasions, I correctly picked out one source over the other.  As I was confident I could hear an even more prominent difference on speakers, I blind tested here also and on 2/2 occasions, I was able to correctly pick out one source over the other.  To be honest, there's no need to blind test because the improvement with the microRendu is quite evident.  While more subtle, I can hear differences among different USB cables also although this evaluation was not blinded.
> 
> As I stated, the beguiling thing about the DAVE is that nothing sounds bad and so when not comparing one source against another, all my brain and my heart tell me is that I am hearing something wonderful and like you, I hear no variance whether I'm listening at 12 noon or at 12 midnight.  In direct comparison, however, there is no doubt in my mind that certain bit-perfect sources sound different (better) than others.


 
 Cool.
  
 Something I meant to do a few weeks ago was to listen via my lap-top with battery on or off. My design lap-top is a serious windows 10 machine - a 17 inch Intel I7 with 16 GB SRAM, and does not last very long on batteries.
  
 So I listened on HP via Dave with the lap-top being powered by the mains or battery. This will test to see how sensitive Dave is to RF noise on the mains from the lap-top.
  
 Yes I could indeed hear a difference - battery operation on the lap-top was smoother (less grain on female vocals), bit softer on the bass, and more natural. It was a worthwhile improvement, but not a change that is large. I would not be able to accurately hear the difference blind, just to get a feel for the scale of the change. But this change in SQ is completely consistent with lower RF noise levels.
  
 I have recently bought a Windows 10 two in one (tablet and lap-top - its HP pavilion) that has fully featured USB ports, so I can plug in 4TB portable hard drives, but it is power efficient (6 hours on battery). I will be using this on battery in future for serious listening - I have also got a battery pack for it which I use on flights.
  
 Something else for me to ponder - perhaps I should resurrect my mains RF filters from the past... 
  
 Rob


----------



## Samuel Snoopy

tkteo said:


> I wasn't aware that Mr Watts' DAC designs are Delta-Sigma. Isn't the DSP section of the DAVE, Hugo, etc 48-bit?



I just don't know what the headphoneclub game want to achieve! You listen to your own system to decide which DAC used for the recorded files is a really laughable idea. How could your system could repeat what the original DAC's sound characteristics； may be only if you have a perfect system to play the records.


----------



## Rob Watts

romaz said:


> To be upfront, I haven't received my Paul Hynes supply yet and what sounds good in theory and what may be a prominent chasm with another DAC may be only a minor improvement with the DAVE, I'm not sure.  I will find out in about 6 weeks.  As I stated, the difference I am hearing between an inexpensive HD Plex linear PSU and the iFi supply that came with my microRendu is very small with a slight preference for the iFi.
> 
> I also don't want anyone to have the impression that Paul Hynes is saying one thing and Rob Watts is saying something contradictory because if you read my post carefully, you will see that I made the speculation that low output impedance and RF are directly related.  Specifically, here is what Paul Hynes has to say about output impedance:
> 
> ...


 
 OK, just to clarify - its not the switcher power supply that is <0.5 milliohm, but a linear discrete circuit for the reference supply. It is also only 0.22 uV of noise 20-20kHz. I have to have such low levels of noise to ensure no measurable noise floor modulation from Dave.
  
 Rob


----------



## romaz

tkteo said:


> I wasn't aware that Mr Watts' DAC designs are Delta-Sigma. Isn't the DSP section of the DAVE, Hugo, etc 48-bit?


 
 I think it makes no sense to categorize DACs as Delta-Sigma, R2R, etc in a competition where there is only one winner because many people already have their biases about these various DAC topologies that could possibly influence their decision.  Also, most of us want to buy the best DAC (period) and not just the best DS or R2R DAC so this type of categorization seems misguided here and as you've noted, the DAVE is not a DS DAC but it isn't an R2R DAC either.
  
 It is also getting harder and harder to accurately categorize a DAC these days since there are now so many classifications that DACs can fall into and some DACs fall into multiple categories:  DS vs R2R vs pulse array vs switched capacitor; single-bit vs multi-bit; single-ended vs differential; oversampling vs NOS; discrete vs silicon, etc.  It used to be that single-bit DACs were always chip-based and multibit DACs meant R2R but then the Schiit Yggy comes out and it is a multi-bit DAC that uses silicon chips instead of a resistor ladder.  
  
 The DAVE is not a silicon-based DAC (ie Delta-Sigma) even though it oversamples and while it is a discrete DAC and uses resistors, it is not an R2R DAC either.  Based on Rob's postings, the most specific categorization that I can provide the DAVE is that it is a single-ended FPGA 20-element Pulse Array DAC and it is the only DAC of its kind.


----------



## agisthos

Romaz I note you have discovered the HFC cables and mentioned them a bit here. Have you tried their RCA digital cable with the DAVE? RCA to BNC adaptor would be required though.
  
 Their cables have the most profound effect closest to source, i.e digital, then IC, then speaker cables. Well that's what I have found anyway. The High Fidelity Cables line is groundbreaking, far better than any others I have tried.


----------



## romaz

agisthos said:


> Romaz I note you have discovered the HFC cables and mentioned them a bit here. Have you tried their RCA digital cable with the DAVE? RCA to BNC adaptor would be required though.
> 
> Their cables have the most profound effect closest to source, i.e digital, then IC, then speaker cables. Well that's what I have found anyway. The High Fidelity Cables line is groundbreaking, far better than any others I have tried.


 
 It's nice to know someone else who has heard these cables and find them as groundbreaking as I do.  I have not heard High Fidelity's RCA digital cable but if I get the chance, I'd love to hear them.  I just got a set of their speaker cables and once again, wow!


----------



## Jawed

romaz said:


> tkteo said:
> 
> 
> > The DAVE is not a silicon-based DAC (ie Delta-Sigma) even though it oversamples and while it is a discrete DAC and uses resistors, it is not an R2R DAC either.  Based on Rob's postings, the most specific categorization that I can provide the DAVE is that it is a single-ended FPGA 20-element Pulse Array DAC and it is the only DAC of its kind.



The elements each fire for a fixed duration (common to all of them) and for a distinct part of the output cycle (so that no two elements fire together), so that they "join" up into what's seen by the analogue integrator as a single, long, pulse. The output cycle has fixed duration, so the pulse either fills that cycle fully or partially or there is no pulse. 

This way you get a pulse of energy and a period of no energy during every cycle. The ratio between the two makes the analogue delta that produces the music. There is a fixed set of these ratios, along with two special cases: where there is no pulse and where the pulse fills the entire cycle. This is pulse density modulation.

Native replay of SACD and other DSD variants is the same process, though not at the frequency (104MHz) and power level (several watts) seen in DAVE.

DAVE's PDM DAC is preceded by up-sampling and noise-shaping implemented by the FPGA.


----------



## JaZZ

jawed said:


> The elements each fire for a fixed duration (common to all of them) and for a distinct part of the output cycle (so that no two elements fire together), so that they "join" up into what's seen by the analogue integrator as a single, long, pulse. The output cycle has fixed duration, so the pulse either fills that cycle fully or partially or there is no pulse.
> 
> This way you get a pulse of energy and a period of no energy during every cycle. The ratio between the two makes the analogue delta that produces the music. There is a fixed set of these ratios, along with two special cases: where there is no pulse and where the pulse fills the entire cycle. This is pulse density modulation.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks, Jawed, for explaining!
  
 I have always asked myself what exactly this «Pulse Array» could be. Now it turns out to be based on Pulse Width Modulation (PWM), which I happen to be somewhat familiar with.
  
 From above Wikipedia link:
  

  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
 «A simple method to generate the PWM pulse train corresponding to a given signal is the intersective PWM: the signal (here the red sine wave) is compared with a sawtooth waveform (blue). When the latter is less than the former, the PWM signal (magenta) is in high state (1). Otherwise it is in the low state (0).»
  
 The German Wikipedia version adds: «For sufficiently inertial consumer loads the voltage curve functions as a sine curve.» Which means you just need a low-pass filter for D/A conversion (as in class D amps).


----------



## Kakki

rob watts said:


> I had planned to listen to different mains cables, but have decided to make some up myself, as the available cables I am not 100% happy with from a RF POV.


 
  
 Rob, are you going to share how you will create the 100% happy cable for Dave? I guess everyone will be very much interested...


----------



## Peter Hyatt

A general question for Dave owners:

Does owning Dave 'spoil' listening experiences for times when you don't have access to Dave?

I am curious. 

I've become "dependent" on Mojo. I don't have interest in listening without it. 


I'm also interested in what headphones Dave users like. Presupposing that they aren't limited financially, what headphones and or in ear monitors do Dave owners most enjoy?

That's two questions...


Thank you. This is an interesting thread.


----------



## shuttlepod

peter hyatt said:


> A general question for Dave owners:
> 
> Does owning Dave 'spoil' listening experiences for times when you don't have access to Dave?
> 
> ...


 

 Peter--
  
 I am still awaiting delivery of my DAVE but I did have two weeks with it on audition. I think the answer to your first question (Will DAVE spoil you?) is yes and no. Yes, because most of the competition (especially competition that costs less) will not sound as good. You will be aware of this on an intellectual level when listening to other dacs. But no, because eventually our ears adjust and through the magic of hedonic adaptation (look that phrase up), you will still be able to enjoy music. Unless, that is, you have a really acute case of audiophilea nervosa. 
  
 Regarding headphones, others on this thread have much more experience than myself. My personal opinion is that the HiFiMan HE 1000 sounds amazingly good with DAVE, better than an unmodified Senn HD 800. But this really gets into personal preference.


----------



## JaZZ

Hi Peter
  
 When I'm on the go I can live with the sound from my FiiO X3 II or X5 II, the more so during jogging where adding the Mojo isn't an option. Granted, with the latter I enjoy the music a bit more. My preferred IEM on the go is (what a surprise!) the lowly FiiO EX1 – adequately equalized, it plays on the same level with the Shure SE846 or the IE 800 (which I tend to avoid because of the awful cable – to be replaced soon), it even sounds a bit more spacious and airy and thanks to the low isolation avoids massive occlusion effects.
  
 That said, the SE846 with an empty filter tube, equalized, enjoyed on a mild early summer day on the balcony, driven by DAVE sounds supernatural – and about perfect and perfectly musical.
  
 On my main system consisting of the FiiO X5II with a nice octave equalizer (with 0.2 dB steps) and DAVE I have one favorite: the HiFiMan HE1000 with a Silver Dragon cable (so far). It needs a bit of EQ corrections to sound at its best, but then leaves no wishes to my ears. I have not the least urge to try any other headphone, although the Stax SR-009 is on my to-do list. But then again, I know how electrostats sound and am quite happy with mine. I don't think I would like it better than the HE1000, since I'm quite sensitive to the inherent sonic flaws of electrostats, as much as I appreciate their virtues.
  
 Beside said two electrostats I also like my modified HD 800. Which makes four main headphones I have to choose from before each listening session. Most of the time it boils down to HD 800 and HE1000.
  
 Yes, I can still enjoy listening to music through the Hugo – every time I switch back I think it sounds really good. Anyway, DAVE is an even greater step in terms of sound quality and realism than the Hugo was (coming from a McCormack UDP-1 and a Bel Canto DAC2).


----------



## Crgreen

My Dave is due at the end of the month. I'm currently using a Hugo which I've had for well over a year (and never plugged a pair of headphones into - sacrilege on this forum). I've been astonished at the sound of the Hugo - utterly moreish - and have gone for the Dave without hearing it. No idea how big an improvement it will be, but I am thinking of buying some headphones - Audioquest Nighthawk.


----------



## JaZZ

crgreen said:


> My Dave is due at the end of the month. I'm currently using a Hugo which I've had for well over a year (and never plugged a pair of headphones into - sacrilege on this forum). I've been astonished at the sound of the Hugo - utterly moreish - and *have gone for the Dave without hearing it.* No idea how big an improvement it will be, but I am thinking of buying some headphones - Audioquest Nighthawk.


 
  
 No risk at all with DAVE – I've gone the same route.


----------



## Crgreen

That's the view I took. Rob Watts is so clearly doing something right with the Hugo that I thought I'd like some more, please.


----------



## Peter Hyatt

Fascinating replies; thank you.   Each time a new phrase comes up, I do my homework.   For Rob's posts, it means two of every three sentences must be researched. 
  
 As to the EX1 from Fiio.  
  
 I am glad I am not alone in thinking I was going crazy.  They are such an amazingly pleasant surprise!  $65 and I have used them jogging (I take Mojo with me on the treadmill).  
  
 The headphones issue is interesting because even when just beginning to explore DACs, I needed the ultimate quiet to carefully listen.  
  
 I did wonder if enjoying Dave at home meant grabbing a Mojo for exercising as listening to excellence becomes an expectation.  
  
 "hedonic adaptation" --I love learning but wondered if this was applicable once the brain becomes accustomed to the high amount of musical data and going to a much lesser amount would be 'dull' or uninspiring.  I do recall Peter Lynch, the Wall Street investor writing that "the day after the world supposedly collapses, people will get up and put their pants on, one leg at a time, and go back to work..."  It is also used in de-sensitizaiton training and to reduce expected trauma.  Fascinating to employ it here! 
  
 Thank you, all.  I continue to read up on Dave, your experiences and while researching, I am learning!


----------



## romaz

crgreen said:


> My Dave is due at the end of the month. I'm currently using a Hugo which I've had for well over a year (and never plugged a pair of headphones into - sacrilege on this forum). I've been astonished at the sound of the Hugo - utterly moreish - and have gone for the Dave without hearing it. No idea how big an improvement it will be, but I am thinking of buying some headphones - Audioquest Nighthawk.


 
 Congratulations.  It's a big step to buy something as expensive as the DAVE never having heard it but if you like the Hugo, I'm sure you won't be disappointed.  You probably also can't go wrong buying the same headphone that Rob Watts himself prefers but also know that headphones are probably the most personal decision you will make.


----------



## Crgreen

What, over choice of life-partner or the like?


----------



## Peter Hyatt

crgreen said:


> That's the view I took. Rob Watts is so clearly doing something right with the Hugo that I thought I'd like some more, please.


 

 My precise attitude about Mojo!  Mojo makes me dream of Dave!


----------



## romaz

peter hyatt said:


> I'm also interested in what headphones Dave users like. Presupposing that they aren't limited financially, what headphones and or in ear monitors do Dave owners most enjoy?


 
 If you have no financial limitations, I can also vouch for the same custom IEMs that Rob prefers and those are the Noble Kaiser 10s.  They have a very visceral low end but more importantly, they are very well balanced and so there is no emphasis to any part of the frequency range.  The only thing you sense is that nothing is missing and that your music is very much alive.  They also isolate very well if that is important (I use mine mainly when traveling) and they isolate better than any of my other traveling headphones that have active noise cancellation.  They can be driven well by both your Mojo and by the DAVE.  
  
 As for headphones, many here have voiced a preference for the HE-1000 and I, too, very much like the musicality of this headphone.  This one is very easy to listen to for hours on end.  I have also grown very fond of the Abyss with the DAVE and matched with a better headphone cable than the one that comes stock, this one now rises to the top for me.  This one comes the closest to sounding like speakers.


----------



## romaz

crgreen said:


> What, over choice of life-partner or the like?


 
 lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.  Unlike life partners, you can have more than one set of headphones and even though my HD800S sees less time with me these days, it never complains when I don't call.


----------



## lovethatsound

peter hyatt said:


> A general question for Dave owners:
> 
> Does owning Dave 'spoil' listening experiences for times when you don't have access to Dave?
> 
> ...


Hi Peter 
I only really use Dave now,even know I've got 3 other dacs.Daves sound's very addictive.As far as headphones go,theirs only 1 for me and that's the HD800 unmodified,but with cardas clear cable I've never heard a headphone sound so good,so realistic,with the Dave,the cable makes a big difference to the hd800,makes them sing like never before,add the Dave,and your in heaven.


----------



## romaz

kakki said:


> Rob, are you going to share how you will create the 100% happy cable for Dave? I guess everyone will be very much interested...


 
 It's always interesting to see what Rob comes up with.  I am currently testing a mains cable that "busts RF" better than anything yet that I have heard.  Here is a photo and it is called the High Fidelity Reference Helix:
  

  
 Unfortunately, it is obscenely expensive (it costs as much as the DAVE) but the point of the exercise is to see whether the DAVE would scale to something like this and to my dismay, it does.  As nice an improvement as something like the microRendu provides, it pales in comparison to the sheer clarity, enhanced tonal body and vivid dynamics that comes with the magnetic technology that this mains cable provides.


----------



## maxh22

romaz said:


> It's always interesting to see what Rob comes up with.  I am currently testing a mains cable that "busts RF" better than anything yet that I have heard.  Here is a photo and it is called the High Fidelity Reference Helix:
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, it is obscenely expensive (it costs as much as the DAVE) but the point of the exercise is to see whether the DAVE would scale to something like this and to my dismay, it does.  As nice an improvement as something like the microRendu provides, it pales in comparison to the sheer clarity, enhanced tonal body and vivid dynamics that comes with the magnetic technology that this mains cable provides.


 
 Now thats something! The company also has an even more expensive cable that goes for $21K! It isn't even meant for consumers due to how impractical it is.
  
 http://www.highfidelitycables.com/products/power/pro/


----------



## ecwl

peter hyatt said:


> A general question for Dave owners:
> 
> Does owning Dave 'spoil' listening experiences for times when you don't have access to Dave?
> 
> ...




I'm not a big Head-Fi person so I use RHA MA750 for travel and Sennheiser HD650 at home because of my small head. DAVE is mainly for speakers for me. 

I have no problems using DAVE at home and Mojo at work or while travelling. What I can't stand anymore are non-Chord DACs.


----------



## romaz

maxh22 said:


> Now thats something! The company also has an even more expensive cable that goes for $21K! It isn't even meant for consumers due to how impractical it is.
> 
> http://www.highfidelitycables.com/products/power/pro/


 
 I have had conversations with Rick Schultz about this "Pro" version that you talk about.  He uses it in his home and says there are die-hard consumers who use it in their systems.  Rick tells me he has not yet found a saturation point where audio equipment he has tested doesn't benefit from this magnetic technology from a SQ standpoint and that the more magnets the better.  The problem is the bigger and more powerful magnets become potentially more dangerous at some point.  He told me he has a magnet he is testing in his shop that is so powerful that it will attract scissors and similar items if they're left unattended that can become flying daggers and yet these magnets result in very obvious SQ improvement even beyond his "Pro" series.  Apparently, the rare earth magnets used in his highest-end stuff and the manufacturing process involved (each has to be hand made) are costly and so there is no way to reap the benefits of this technology without having to spend a fair amount of money.


----------



## maxh22

romaz said:


> I have had conversations with Rick Schultz about this "Pro" version that you talk about.  He uses it in his home and says there are die-hard consumers who use it in their systems.  Rick tells me he has not yet found a saturation point where audio equipment he has tested doesn't benefit from this magnetic technology from a SQ standpoint and that the more magnets the better.  The problem is the bigger and more powerful magnets become potentially more dangerous at some point.  He told me he has a magnet he is testing in his shop that is so powerful that it will attract scissors and similar items if they're left unattended that can become flying daggers and yet these magnets result in very obvious SQ improvement even beyond his "Pro" series.  Apparently, the rare earth magnets used in his highest-end stuff and the manufacturing process involved (each has to be hand made) are costly and so there is no way to reap the benefits of this technology without having to spend a fair amount of money.


 
 Very interesting, do you think the SQ improvement that you are hearing from the cable is worth the asking price to you?  
 Will you be keeping the cable?


----------



## shuttlepod

romaz said:


> It's always interesting to see what Rob comes up with.  I am currently testing a mains cable that "busts RF" better than anything yet that I have heard.  Here is a photo and it is called the High Fidelity Reference Helix:
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, it is obscenely expensive (it costs as much as the DAVE) but the point of the exercise is to see whether the DAVE would scale to something like this and to my dismay, it does.  As nice an improvement as something like the microRendu provides, it pales in comparison to the sheer clarity, enhanced tonal body and vivid dynamics that comes with the magnetic technology that this mains cable provides.


 

 It is sort of dismaying. How would you compare it to the $2k HFC power cord, which you said earlier was a significant improvement over other cords by Shunyata and Audience? And are you using the Reference Helix with the $2800 HFC power conditioner? Just trying to get a sense of bang for the buck with HFC power products.


----------



## Crgreen

Sounds like one of those experiments where it all goes terribly wrong and they have to call in Spiderman


----------



## shuttlepod

romaz said:


> I have had conversations with Rick Schultz about this "Pro" version that you talk about.  He uses it in his home and says there are die-hard consumers who use it in their systems.  Rick tells me he has not yet found a saturation point where audio equipment he has tested doesn't benefit from this magnetic technology from a SQ standpoint and that the more magnets the better.  The problem is the bigger and more powerful magnets become potentially more dangerous at some point.  He told me he has a magnet he is testing in his shop that is so powerful that it will attract scissors and similar items if they're left unattended that can become flying daggers and yet these magnets result in very obvious SQ improvement even beyond his "Pro" series.  Apparently, the rare earth magnets used in his highest-end stuff and the manufacturing process involved (each has to be hand made) are costly and so there is no way to reap the benefits of this technology without having to spend a fair amount of money.


 

 I don't know much about magnets, but I almost fear for Rick Schultz's health, and I'm not referring only to flying metal objects. It almost conjures up a mad scientist vision in my head.


----------



## Mython

shuttlepod said:


> romaz said:
> 
> 
> > I have had conversations with Rick Schultz about this "Pro" version that you talk about.  He uses it in his home and says there are die-hard consumers who use it in their systems.  Rick tells me he has not yet found a saturation point where audio equipment he has tested doesn't benefit from this magnetic technology from a SQ standpoint and that the more magnets the better.  The problem is the bigger and more powerful magnets become potentially more dangerous at some point.  He told me he has a magnet he is testing in his shop that is so powerful that it will attract scissors and similar items if they're left unattended that can become flying daggers and yet these magnets result in very obvious SQ improvement even beyond his "Pro" series.  Apparently, the rare earth magnets used in his highest-end stuff and the manufacturing process involved (each has to be hand made) are costly and so there is no way to reap the benefits of this technology without having to spend a fair amount of money.
> ...


 
  
  
 Sounds like he may eventually end up installing an MRI in some wealthy audiophiles hi-fi room, and putting all the seperates on the MRI bed (naturally, he'll have to  find some way of ensuring everything is spectacularly-well-secured to the bed, and/or eliminate every ferrous component and replace it with an aluminium, copper, gold, silver, or lead equivalent! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
 On a serious note, I'm all for people seeking to 'push the envelope', from an R&D standpoint, but $21,000, for a cable, magnetic or not, is, to this individual, quite frankly insulting. If that opinion makes me unpopular, then so be it


----------



## x RELIC x

Hi Peter Hyatt, like you I find the Mojo to be very compelling and because of it I'm likely going to order the DAVE without an audition (dealer network in Western Canada being quite small). As you've seen many of my posts in the Mojo thread I find Rob's implementations to be very much ahead of the curve, at least to my ears, and simply can't resist the temptation of DAVE. I need to finish a job I brought in to pay for it and then I'll be able to share with you my thoughts between the two and how it affects my desire to 'scale down' when not listening at my workstation. This may be the most interesting time in my life long enjoyment of music since I first heard my father put music on the family's turntable, strictly speaking from a sense of wonder. I'm looking forward to it. A little over the top with anticipation? We'll see...


----------



## romaz

If price was no object, I cannot imagine anyone who wouldn't want this cable with their DAVE or frankly with whatever piece of audio equipment they have.  Having seen preposterously expensive mains cables for years, I used to wonder just how good a mains cable (or a set of interconnects) could be and never imagined they could ever make that much of a difference but this magnetic technology concept is different.  It's not just about clean power or a clean signal but I'm not sure I fully grasp yet all that it is doing and how it's doing it.  All I can say is I have never heard a mains cable (or a set of interconnects) do what these cables are single-handedly doing and the benefits are clearly additive.  Of course, there is the question of how good something is and what value the improvement that it brings is worth.
  
 Another way I am looking at it is if Rob came out with a new improved DAVE version 2 and it sounded this much better, would I sell my current DAVE and upgrade to it?  Combined with what I am getting from High Fidelity's prototype headphone device and their interconnects, it becomes very hard to say "no" because once you hear an improvement of this magnitude, it becomes almost haunting to live with less.  I don't want to suggest this technology is improving the DAVE more than it is revealing the DAVE's true potential which is a testament to how great the DAVE really is.
  
 Ultimately, there is the issue of affordability and that is often the limiting factor.  Regardless of the value something might have, we each have a line that we cannot cross or shouldn't cross and $20k for a mains cable (or even $13K) is more than I am willing to spend.  This $13k mains cable I am evaluating, however, has been offered to me by a gentleman who is having an "estate sale" because of tax problems and as it has been offered to me for 60% off MSRP, I have already agreed to move forward with it.  He also had a set if High Fidelity Ulitmate Reference interconnects he wished to part with for about 60% off MSRP, an offer I simply could not refuse.  
  
 Having established that the microRendu / SonicTransporter will be my reference digital source and having almost completed my USB cable and network cable evaluation with the microRendu, once my Paul Hynes power supply comes in, I believe my incessant testing will come to an end and I will just finally enjoy what I believe will be my "end-game" setup for at least the foreseeable future (at least until my youngest son moves out to college and I start building my dream 2-channel system).


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> It is sort of dismaying. How would you compare it to the $2k HFC power cord, which you said earlier was a significant improvement over other cords by Shunyata and Audience? And are you using the Reference Helix with the $2800 HFC power conditioner? Just trying to get a sense of bang for the buck with HFC power products.


 
 Jon, I would say the Helix is simply not even close to anything I have heard, whether it be the $2k HFC CT-1 and especially against any other product that uses more conventional technology.  I will repurpose the CT-1 to power my Paul Hynes supply.  Yes, I am using the Helix with the HFC power conditioner and having compared with and without, I have found the benefits to be additive.  I have also installed 3 MC-0.5s (plugged into the conditioner) and while the difference is nowhere as great, their contribution is evident as well.  As for bang for the buck, this headphone device prototype (target price $300?) will easily be the greatest bang for the buck.  Their RCA adapters are similarly of very high value.  Of interest, I have added the RCA adapters to their interconnects and there is further improvement.  Once again, the more magnets the better.  When you combine the impact of this magnet technology everywhere (including speaker cables), there are simply no words to describe the impact.


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> I don't know much about magnets, but I almost fear for Rick Schultz's health, and I'm not referring only to flying metal objects. It almost conjures up a mad scientist vision in my head.


 
 Rick is a very well grounded individual from what I have gleaned.  He is a family guy and he understands what is important in life is the impression that I get.  Apparently, Sennheiser has approached him regarding interest in licensing his technology so I think it's a matter of time before this technology becomes a household name.


----------



## maxh22

romaz said:


> If price was no object, I cannot imagine anyone who wouldn't want this cable with their DAVE or frankly with whatever piece of audio equipment they have.  Having seen preposterously expensive mains cables for years, I used to wonder just how good a mains cable (or a set of interconnects) could be and never imagined they could ever make that much of a difference but this magnetic technology concept is different.  It's not just about clean power or a clean signal but I'm not sure I fully grasp yet all that it is doing and how it's doing it.  All I can say is I have never heard a mains cable (or a set of interconnects) do what these cables are single-handedly doing and the benefits are clearly additive.  Of course, there is the question of how good something is and what value the improvement that it brings is worth.
> 
> Another way I am looking at it is if Rob came out with a new improved DAVE version 2 and it sounded this much better, would I sell my current DAVE and upgrade to it?  Combined with what I am getting from High Fidelity's prototype headphone device and their interconnects, it becomes very hard to say "no" because once you hear an improvement of this magnitude, it becomes almost haunting to live with less.  I don't want to suggest this technology is improving the DAVE more than it is revealing the DAVE's true potential which is a testament to how great the DAVE really is.
> 
> ...


 
 What does the High Fidelity's prototype headphone device do to the sound quality?


----------



## JaZZ

romaz said:


> I have had conversations with Rick Schultz about this "Pro" version that you talk about.  He uses it in his home and says there are die-hard consumers who use it in their systems.  Rick tells me he has not yet found a saturation point where audio equipment he has tested doesn't benefit from this magnetic technology from a SQ standpoint and that the more magnets the better.  The problem is the bigger and more powerful magnets become potentially more dangerous at some point.  He told me he has a magnet he is testing in his shop that is so powerful that it will attract scissors and similar items if they're left unattended that can become flying daggers and yet these magnets result in very obvious SQ improvement even beyond his "Pro" series.  Apparently, the rare earth magnets used in his highest-end stuff and the manufacturing process involved (each has to be hand made) are costly and so there is no way to reap the benefits of this technology without having to spend a fair amount of money.


 
  
 What exactly is the function of the magnets? I have no idea how magnets could affect the quality of electron movement in conductors, so I'm very curious to learn.


----------



## esimms86

romaz said:


> Rick is a very well grounded individual from what I have gleaned.  He is a family guy and he understands what is important in life is the impression that I get.  Apparently, Sennheiser has approached him regarding interest in licensing his technology so I think it's a matter of time before this technology becomes a household name.


 

 Roy, did you really mean to say that Rick Schultz, maker of uber high end magnetic cables, was "well grounded"? LOL
  
 Seriously, though with HFC products you're talking about going further and further down the rabbit hole. Obviously, we're all jealous of the  fact that you have the funds and the opportunity to get so close to HFC's top of the line. I would imagine that for the vast majority of us DAVE owners just getting enough funds together to pay for DAVE exhausted the budget for some time to come.
  
 Now, looking at the HFC product line in regards to headphone listening you start out at, say, $3300 for their entry level power cable and power conditioner plus the headphone device prototype. Jumping one level up in expense you're looking at $7000 (with the prototype device presumed to represent no step up in price or quality relative to the items in the 1st tier). Go beyond that and you've spent more on magnetic devices than you've spent on DAVE.
  
 If you're committed with going the HFC route then the obvious smart solution is to scour places like Audiogon and the Canuck Market for 2nd hand HFC products at perhaps half the asking price of brand new.
  
 I've read where others have said that you're better off never hearing HFC products if you can't afford them. If this is true(and I believe there is probably a large measure of truth spoken there) then it's comforting to know that one is highly unlikely to accidentally run into another HFC dealer or owner in most parts of the world so you will most likely remain very satisfied with whatever level of HFC investment you have made in your system.
  
 For myself, I have a pair of MC-0.5's on order, plus the DHC Complement cable as well. If the headphone device prototype comes even close to the target selling price then I will undoubtedly pick that up as well. Beyond that it's wait and see.
  
 Esau


----------



## x RELIC x

jazz said:


> What exactly is the function of the magnets? I have no idea how magnets could affect the quality of electron movement in conductors, so I'm very curious to learn. :blink:




Reminds me of this:


[VIDEO]https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL_4Pkt2vW9hTNhHoELWhyBar2aRSGrGFQ&v=oe95ykkfFH4[/VIDEO]


Literally looks like a tin-foil-hat solution, but there really are some very interesting effects using magnetism, coils, and vortex geometry. They had a previous video that demonstrated the speaker effect much more audibly, but they keep mysteriously getting their videos removed for whatever reason (ooh, conspiracy!). There are some very interesting effects they demonstrate in their other videos. Whether you buy in to it or not, my takeaway is that we don't know very much about the effects of magnetism and there is a lot to still understand. Often a lack of understanding will surely begin with ridicule. I'm not judging either way.


----------



## Mython

x relic x said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > What exactly is the function of the magnets? I have no idea how magnets could affect the quality of electron movement in conductors, so I'm very curious to learn.
> ...


 
  
  
 I'm not really knocking the use of magnets - I_ like _attempts to think outside conventional (AKA 'constrained') thinking, and pushing the envelope of 'accepted wisdom', much like Tesla did, with so much of his work.
  
 My jovial stance about MRI, was only taking the magnetism conversation to an obviously-absurd extreme, for comic effect.
  
 It's actually the $21,000 _pricetag_ that I'm taking issue with. It irks me that some people in the mainstream of the industry, _and some on the fringes of the industry,_ take liberties with a small minority of well-heeled individuals.
  
  
  
 Interesting video, by the way. Thanks for that.


----------



## Mython

200 pages - not as fast-growing as the Mojo thread, but, considering the price of DAVE, not bad-going, and sure to accelerate, as word about DAVE gradually spreads throughout the hi-fi industry


----------



## x RELIC x

mython said:


> I'm not really knocking the use of magnets - I _like_ attempts to think outside conventional (AKA 'constrained') thinking, and pushing the envelope of 'accepted wisdom', much like Tesla did, with so much of his work.
> 
> My jovial stance about MRI, was only taking the magnetism conversation to an obviously-absurd extreme, for comic effect.
> 
> ...




My stance is this... There needs to be considerable effort taken to test and re-test, then test again, listening to differences, especially when the concrete evidence is elusive. Similar to what happened to Rob when he developed the Hugo. There were sonic benefits that he still didn't quite understand where they were coming from at the time of its release, yet they were significant differences all the same. Diving deeper with the DAVE allowed him to understand what he had done right. While I may _not be a proponent _of the kind if prices suggested for magnetic enhancement (slight grin on my face) I can appreciate that there must be countless hours spent testing to get to a point of marketability with these devices. Each individual of course will have to determine the value of such enhancements and whether they are willing to go down that route for perceived audible improvements.


----------



## Mython




----------



## x RELIC x

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






mython said:


>






Yup. Exactly.


----------



## JaZZ

x relic x said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > What exactly is the function of the magnets? I have no idea how magnets could affect the quality of electron movement in conductors, so I'm very curious to learn.
> ...


 
  
 I didn't mean to ridicule the magnetic cable approach in any way, quite the opposite – I'm seriously interested –, and I hope Roy can give some substantial info on the matter.
  
 I'm not sure, but I think at least the first part of the video doesn't show something extraordinary, just normal electromagnetic induction. Every dynamic transducer consists of a magnet and a coil. Maybe the demonstrated effect is similar to the function of balanced armatures or Grado's moving-iron pickups.


----------



## shuttlepod

romaz said:


> Jon, I would say the Helix is simply not even close to anything I have heard, whether it be the $2k HFC CT-1 and especially against any other product that uses more conventional technology.  I will repurpose the CT-1 to power my Paul Hynes supply.  Yes, I am using the Helix with the HFC power conditioner and having compared with and without and the benefits are additive.  I have also installed 3 MC-0.5s (plugged into the conditioner) and while the difference is nowhere as great, their contribution is evident as well.  As for bang for the buck, this headphone device prototype (target price $300?) will easily be the greatest bang for the buck.  Their RCA adapters are similarly of very high value.  Of interest, I have added the RCA adapters to their interconnects and there is further improvement.  Once again, the more magnets the better.  When you combine the impact of this magnet technology everywhere (including speaker cables), there are simply no words to describe the impact.


 

 Wow, target price of $300 for the headphone device -- I'm pleasantly surprised that it might be in this neighborhood. Looking forward to seeing what Mr. Schultz does with this. Interesting also that you find that the RCA adapters result in an improvement when added to HFC's own interconnects. This might be another good bang for the buck. Worth a try, at the very least. Thanks Roy, as always, for your faithful reporting.


----------



## x RELIC x

jazz said:


> I didn't mean to ridicule the magnetic cable approach in any way, quite the opposite – I'm seriously interested –, and I hope Roy can give some substantial info on the matter.
> 
> I'm not sure, but I think at least the first part of the video doesn't show something extraordinary, just normal electromagnetic induction. Every dynamic transducer consists of a magnet and a coil. Maybe the demonstrated effect is similar to the function of balanced armatures or Grado's moving-iron pickups.




Oh, quite the opposite, I feel there may be a lot more to magnetism's effect than what we realize, just a hunch though, but certainly no ridicule. What you have to understand is there is no transducer moving in that video I linked (like I said, it's a poor demonstration). The earlier video I mentioned that has been removed is just a bowl sitting on the coil with the magnet in the centre, again no moving transducer, no moving parts. Although this is getting on quite a tangent to the topic of the DAVE there are some very interesting effects demonstrated recently with magnetism in a vacuum using plasma to visualize it. The results are far from what the conventional thinking of magnetic fields are under those circumstances.


----------



## JaZZ

x relic x said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't mean to ridicule the magnetic cable approach in any way, quite the opposite – I'm seriously interested –, and I hope Roy can give some substantial info on the matter.
> ...


 
  
 I agree with you on the rest, but the first part really looks like normal electromagnetic induction, eddy current in the aluminum foils, the same effect as in induction cooker pans, reacting with the magnetic field.


----------



## x RELIC x

jazz said:


> I agree with you on the rest, but the first part really looks like normal electromagnetic induction, eddy current in the aluminum foils, the same effect as in induction cooker pans, reacting with the magnetic field.




Ah, apologies. I glossed over the induction and focused on the BA comment as that uses moving pieces in the armature to move the air. 

Back to the DAVE, I'd be curious to know from romaz if such an effect from these magnetic devices have more/less of an effect with less capabable gear than the DAVE.


----------



## romaz

maxh22 said:


> What does the High Fidelity's prototype headphone device do to the sound quality?


 
 It magnetizes the signal.  As audiophiles, we are taught to do everything we can to demagnetize our systems because EMI is considered a bad thing and we want to do everything we can not to attract it.  You can even buy CDs with demagnetizing tracks on them.  With High Fidelity's magnetic conduction technology, he is trying to do the opposite.  If you watch his video, he will show how a magnetic force can so easily influence the electron stream of a cathode ray tube.  If you can use magnets to focus the electron stream to the core of his conductor and away from the edges, then you do away with skin effects that can impact timing and phase.  The more powerful the magnets, the greater the potential influence on things like denseness and purity of the signal and electron transmission speed and so stripping away RF is not the only thing it is doing.  To be honest, I'm not sure even Rick fully understands all that this technology is doing because the benefits are more than you would expect.  Often, signal and power chords are known to provide either dense and colorful tonal body or else speed, finesse and resolution but not both but this technology seems to be the exception because that's exactly what you get.  If I had to name the one key virtue of this technology, however, it is "clarity."  As I have compared them against traditional cables, there just isn't any comparison.
  
 He has modified his DAC and other audio gear with his technology and he has told me there has been an improvement each time.  I showed him the schematics of the DAVE that are on the internet and unfortunately, the DAVE doesn't have enough "real estate" within to apply magnets and so I have tried to apply it before and after.
  
 Is it voodoo or snake oil?  It sure sounded like it to me but I suggest you demo his inexpensive RCA adapters from thecableco.com and see for yourself.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

You are referring to these, correct?


----------



## romaz

esimms86 said:


> Roy, did you really mean to say that Rick Schultz, maker of uber high end magnetic cables, was "well grounded"? LOL


 
 Pun intended, Esau 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.  Call up the number on the company's website and there's a fair chance he'll answer.  He will have a very normal conversation with you, he's not the typical eccentric "mad scientist" stereotype and there's no hard sell.  Either his products work for you or they don't.  
  
 There's a blog on Audiogon's forum on High Fidelity Cables and has been running since 2012.  It is the longest running blog in Audiogon's history and you will read about the numerous stories of how this technology has transformed the systems of so many others.


esimms86 said:


> Seriously, though with HFC products you're talking about going further and further down the rabbit hole.
> 
> If you're committed with going the HFC route then the obvious smart solution is to scour places like Audiogon and the Canuck Market for 2nd hand HFC products at perhaps half the asking price of brand new.
> 
> ...


 
 I know what you're saying and this one is potentially a very deep and expensive rabbit hole so I have to be careful but it is amazing how much difference there is as you go up the line.  If you can stomach the price, I have not found the law of diminishing returns to apply with some of their gear.  With many things I've experimented with on the DAVE, the difference frequently isn't there or it's very small.  When I first auditioned the DAVE at my home last November, the dealer sent me home with a $10,000 Nordost Odin power cable hoping I would buy it.  I couldn't tell much difference at all and so my brain has been programmed to have low expectations about stuff like this and generally, that has been what I have found.  Some differences are very meaningful (like the DHC cables and even the microRendu) but they're not giant chasms of difference.  What I will say, however, is that my system now sounds so highly resolved that I believe I can detect smaller differences with things like the microRendu than I could have otherwise.
  
 At my core, I consider myself a value shopper even though this is not a value hobby and so I have indeed been scouring the "second-hand sites" and have found some good values, none better than my most recent purchase.  For those wishing to introduce themselves to this technology, I would do as you have done with trying out a pair of MC-0.5s that places like thecableco.com will allow you to try for minimal obligation.  If you have poor quality AC, you should notice an immediate difference but even if it takes a day or two, the difference should be unmistakeable.  I have found their RCA adapters and this headphone prototype I am trying out to have made the most immediate impact in my system, however.  If I had to limit myself to only one of their products without breaking the bank, either their RCA adapters or this headphone device would be it, depending on whether my headphone system or my 2-channel system was more important.


----------



## romaz

x relic x said:


> Reminds me of this:
> 
> 
> 
> Literally looks like a tin-foil-hat solution...


 
 I agree, there's more snake oil out there than not and so it generally has to make some sense to me on a scientific level for me to try it.  This one did not but the demo at AXPONA was pretty eye opening.


----------



## romaz

mython said:


> It's actually the $21,000 _pricetag_ that I'm taking issue with. It irks me that some people in the mainstream of the industry, _and some on the fringes of the industry,_ take liberties with a small minority of well-heeled individuals.


 
 I don't disagree with you.  This kind of price for a mains cable seems absurd on face value and it's unlikely many are sold except to the most well-heeled or fanatical audiophiles.  Having inquired into why such a high price, the response was that the raw ingredients to make this product (especially the rare earth magnets that are used) and the labor involved in their manufacture (they are machined and hand-assembled in Texas) is not cheap and because the demand for a product like this is probably not high, I'm sure they have to factor in a reasonable margin to make it worthwhile to build.  If you've read their ad, this particular model was not designed for the consumer but for a professional organization (like a DAC or amp manufacturer).  Regardless, it is generally the market that dictates what is excessive and what is viable and for a company that is only a few years old, Rick told me his company has doubled in sales every year since he opened shop.
  
 The problem that we each face as DAVE owners is that this DAC overachieves at the price it sells for and so in a sense, we have each bought into a level of gear that very few of us deserve to be in (myself included).  Most of us that own one probably feel this DAC can compete with anything and everything including the $110,000 DCS Vivaldi quad stack and yet most that buy the DCS stack accept that the cost of ownership isn't actually $110,000 because once you buy the loom of Transparent cables that are felt to be requisite for this setup, you're actually paying closer to $200,000.  For this kind of a buyer, paying this much for cables makes sense if it brings out the best in their digital front end and very often, the buyer of a DCS system won't consider one without the other.  Is the DAVE deserving of less?  
  
 Fortunately for us, the DAVE doesn't require exotic cabling to sound exceptional but what I am finding is that it can and does make a difference.  As has been said, if you are completely happy with your DAVE and that could easily apply to all, it might be wiser to stop while you're ahead.  In some ways, I wish I never heard this stuff.


----------



## romaz

jazz said:


> I didn't mean to ridicule the magnetic cable approach in any way, quite the opposite – I'm seriously interested –, and I hope Roy can give some substantial info on the matter.
> 
> I'm not sure, but I think at least the first part of the video doesn't show something extraordinary, just normal electromagnetic induction. Every dynamic transducer consists of a magnet and a coil. Maybe the demonstrated effect is similar to the function of balanced armatures or Grado's moving-iron pickups.


 
 Yes, the video is purposely simplistic for those like myself where this concept is foreign.  The point of it is to show that the claim to be able to control electrons with a magnet is not merely conjecture since many will argue that you can't even see an electron.


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> Wow, target price of $300 for the headphone device -- I'm pleasantly surprised that it might be in this neighborhood. Looking forward to seeing what Mr. Schultz does with this. Interesting also that you find that the RCA adapters result in an improvement when added to HFC's own interconnects. This might be another good bang for the buck. Worth a try, at the very least. Thanks Roy, as always, for your faithful reporting.


 
 Yes, $300 is the goal for this entry level device.  There will be higher levels for those willing to pay but the unit I am testing will have this lower target price.


----------



## romaz

x relic x said:


> Back to the DAVE, I'd be curious to know from @romaz if such an effect from these magnetic devices have more/less of an effect with less capabable gear than the DAVE.


 
 On each of my headphones, there is a difference with his prototype headphone device.  As far as other gear, I can't say personally but Rick tells me his son told him the difference was significant on a pair of stock ear buds with an iPhone which is what prompted him to move forward with the idea.


----------



## x RELIC x

romaz said:


> On each of my headphones, there is a difference with his prototype headphone device.  As far as other gear, I can't say personally but Rick tells me his son told him the difference was significant on a pair of stock ear buds with an iPhone which is what prompted him to move forward with the idea.




So reportedly it's a larger effect than a minor perceived difference that may be only available to a piece of kit like the DAVE. Interesting.


----------



## romaz

bigfatpaulie said:


> You are referring to these, correct?


 
 Yes, that's the MC-0.5 that you would plug into an unused receptacle on your distribution block.  A single one didn't make an immediate difference in my system and so if this is what I had to gauge the impact of this magnetic technology, I probably wouldn't have gone further with their products.


----------



## romaz

x relic x said:


> So reportedly it's a larger effect than a minor perceived different that may be only available to a piece of kit like the DAVE. Interesting.


 
 Yes, I would say the effect is not minor at all.


----------



## x RELIC x

romaz said:


> Yes, the video is purposely simplistic for those like myself where this concept is foreign.  The point of it is to show that the claim to be able to control electrons with a magnet is not merely conjecture since many will argue that you can't even see an electron.




Actually the point of the video is more about the geometry of the coil having an effect than it's audio related use. There are many strange results that he's reported and demonstrated. I just linked it as an example of how traditional thinking isn't the only way to get things done effectively, as we all know from Rob's approach with his DACs. I thought it was pertinent to the cable add-on being discussed and the fact that it may not make sense yet your reports say otherwise. However, that coil and its uses is a much more involved conversation that I'll bow out of in the DAVE thread.


----------



## JaZZ

Reducing the skin effect with magnets in the described way looks passably plausible to me, although I don't really understand the mechanism behind it. But as it looks like, it isn't a practical method for the normal end user, the more so if you want to take it to the extreme. I'm also thinking of the massive magnetic fields pervading the living or listening rooms, with unknown physical long-term consequences (this although DC fields are generally considered relatively harmless). And then there's the financial factor – and the risk of wanting more and more of the good effect. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 If I knew more about the mechanism and the geometric arrangement necessary for the desired effect, I would be inclined to try it myself (several strong neodymium magnets are just waiting in a closet to make themselves useful). However, most likely I will stay with a well-tried cable concept promising to fight the skin effect by its geometry for my next headphone cables: ultra-thin magnet wires (diameter 0.04 mm), 250-500 of them per conductor. I suspect the beneficial effect won't match the magnetic approach, instead it's a more practical and much cheaper solution.
  
 Actually I'm very happy with the sound of my headphones driven by DAVE's headphone out. But only with this device in the signal chain:
  

  
 Yes, it's what you already might have guessed: a 1/8"-to-1/4" adapter sticking in a 1/4"-to-1/8" adapter. Thus a chunk of metal. Something that high-end manufacturers such as WBT («Nextgen») try to avoid in their connectors.
  
 With the HE1000 I've had problems with the somewhat stringent treble since the beginning. The Silver Dragon cured it to some degree, but from the HD 800 (which it served before) I know that it carries some of this trait in itself. So it's not something I only discovered with DAVE. But the double-adapter array cured it completely the first time I tried it. I suspected that it was just a smearing effect, making the sound smoother as in more forgiving. In the meantime I tried slightly deviating EQ settings which seemed to make it obsolete – just to discover that it still represents the icing on the cake.
  
 On saturday the left channel of the HD 800 (stock) cable broke. So I had to resort to the unloved DHC Clone (unloved because of its distinct dullness and lack of treble detail). So acting out of sheer necessity I adjusted the treble accordingly, according to the trial-and error method, which improved the sound to an unexpected level. But only with the double-adapter thing in the signal chain it really blossomed. And it doesn't sound like smeared at all, much rather like considerably increased resolution, and much more natural, too.
  
 So I'm ready to believe that the metal chunk at the headphone output has some sort of corrective or compensational or even preventive effect – maybe in view of line reflections. Some other audio mystery.


----------



## Articnoise

romaz said:


>


 
  

 Roy I would be interested to get your impression on the SQ difference with the Magnetic RCA Adapters between something like the Oppo and a more “source depending” DAC than the DAVE, when using SPDIF. Well with the DAVE too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  

 I see that all their products are single ended. Is it because their tech is not suited for balanced or is it other reasons behind it?


----------



## romaz

jazz said:


> Actually I'm very happy with the sound of my headphones driven by DAVE's headphone out. But only with this device in the signal chain:


 
 Very interesting and clever, Jazz.  Bybee and Steinmusic create similar attachments that impact the quality of the signal and while I have not dabbled with these sort of tweaks outside of the High Fidelity gear, it looks like you are using this device to purposefully tune your sound to your liking.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> Very interesting and clever, Jazz.  Bybee and Steinmusic create similar attachments that impact the quality of the signal and while I have not dabbled with these sort of tweaks outside of the High Fidelity gear, it looks like you are using this device to purposefully tune your sound to your liking.


 
  
 That looks good.  What is it?  a female 1/4 to 1/4 male into DAVE?  All gold?


----------



## Mython

paulchiu said:


> romaz said:
> 
> 
> > Very interesting and clever, Jazz.  Bybee and Steinmusic create similar attachments that impact the quality of the signal and while I have not dabbled with these sort of tweaks outside of the High Fidelity gear, it looks like you are using this device to purposefully tune your sound to your liking.
> ...


 
  


jazz said:


> Actually I'm very happy with the sound of my headphones driven by DAVE's headphone out. But only with this device in the signal chain:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it's what you already might have guessed: a 1/8"-to-1/4" adapter sticking in a 1/4"-to-1/8" adapter. Thus a chunk of metal. Something that high-end manufacturers such as WBT («Nextgen») try to avoid in their connectors.


----------



## romaz

jazz said:


> I'm also thinking of the massive magnetic fields pervading the living or listening rooms, with unknown physical long-term consequences (this although DC fields are generally considered relatively harmless).


 
_ _I share this same concern.  In my line of work, I am exposed to X-ray radiation while in the operating room and so my potential exposure is quite high which is why I wear a monitoring badge.  Obviously, this potentially harmful exposure is of concern to me.  In addition to X-rays, CT scanners output even more radiation.  Ultrasounds and MRI machines do not.  Nonetheless, @paulchiu alerted me to the fact that he was noticing how some of his audio components, especially certain power supplies were emitting concerning amounts of radiation and so I went ahead and bought the same Trifield broadband meter he has, the 100XE, that measures different forms of radiation (magnetic electric, radio/microwave) and sure enough, my power supplies or equipment with large transformers are the biggest offenders.  Fortunately, none of my supplies, amps, computers, DAC, speakers, headphones or CD player emit anything excessive.  Regarding the High Fidelity gear, they emit almost none.  Even the giant magnet sitting on my desk barely results in a blip on my meter when the meter is 1 inch away.  Magnets, according to Rick, attract EMI more than they emit them.


----------



## romaz

articnoise said:


> Roy I would be interested to get your impression on the SQ difference with the Magnetic RCA Adapters between something like the Oppo and a more “source depending” DAC than the DAVE, when using SPDIF. Well with the DAVE too
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Abbe, I have already tried this with my Oppo and the impact is the same.  While the DAVE is definitely more immune to the source than anything else I have owned, it has no say on the analog signal that leaves it.  This is why analog cables definitely matter (with the DAVE and everything else).  This is indeed where you get the most bang for the buck with this technology.  If there is one thing you can do to really get a taste of what this technology can do, I would say start with the analog RCA adapters if you are driving speakers or if you have a single ended amplifier. High Fidelity will soon be rolling out their XLR cables but it is unclear if they will have XLR adapters.  The principles behind all his cables are the same.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


paulchiu said:


> romaz said:
> 
> 
> > Very interesting and clever, Jazz.  Bybee and Steinmusic create similar attachments that impact the quality of the signal and while I have not dabbled with these sort of tweaks outside of the High Fidelity gear, it looks like you are using this device to purposefully tune your sound to your liking.
> ...


  
 A 1/8"-to-1/4" adapter sticking in a 1/4"-to-1/8" adapter. I don't know what material is inside (brass?), but it looks like gold plated. The contact areas are in any event.
  
 What's interesting is that the 3 contacts instead of one don't seem to matter for the sound quality – the array makes the sound smoother and more refined instead of harsher.
  
  


romaz said:


> Very interesting and clever, Jazz.  Bybee and Steinmusic create similar attachments that impact the quality of the signal and while I have not dabbled with these sort of tweaks outside of the High Fidelity gear, it looks like you are using this device to purposefully tune your sound to your liking.


 
  

 Have you ever heard of Gaborlinks? There seems to be a similar effect at work.


----------



## paulchiu

mython said:


>


 
  
 I can't find that item with the link.


----------



## paulchiu

jazz said:


> Have you ever heard of Gaborlinks? There seems to be a similar effect at work.


 
 Marcel,  Can you post me the exact link for the 2 connectors? Thanks
  
 Paul


----------



## JaZZ

paulchiu said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Have you ever heard of Gaborlinks? There seems to be a similar effect at work.
> ...


 
  
 Paul, these are no-name products – just use something like this and that.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> _ _I share this same concern.  In my line of work, I am exposed to X-ray radiation while in the operating room and so my potential exposure is quite high which is why I wear a monitoring badge.  Obviously, this potentially harmful exposure is of concern to me.  In addition to X-rays, CT scanners output even more radiation.  Ultrasounds and MRI machines do not.  Nonetheless, @paulchiu alerted me to the fact that he was noticing how some of his audio components, especially certain power supplies were emitting concerning amounts of radiation and so I went ahead and bought the same Trifield broadband meter he has, the 100XE, that measures different forms of radiation (magnetic electric, radio/microwave) and sure enough, my power supplies or equipment with large transformers are the biggest offenders.  Fortunately, none of my supplies, amps, computers, DAC, speakers, headphones or CD player emit anything excessive.  Regarding the High Fidelity gear, they emit almost none.  Even the giant magnet sitting on my desk barely results in a blip on my meter when the meter is 1 inch away.  Magnets, according to Rick, attract EMI more than they emit them.


 
  
 Speaking of EMI/EMF, I rather go to my airports 90 minutes early and elect to have a full pat-down rather than go through a backscatter X-ray body-scanner.
  
 Paul


----------



## paulchiu

jazz said:


> Paul, these are no-name products – just use something like this and that.


 
  
 Marcel,
  
 I think "that" is this one, no?
  
 Paul


----------



## JaZZ

paulchiu said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Paul, these are no-name products – just use something like this and that.
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, looks like it. You could also get three of them for not much more.


----------



## paulchiu

jazz said:


> Yeah, looks like it. You could also get three of them for not much more.


 
  
 oh come on Marcel, none of these look like yours. 
 Is it European only?


----------



## JaZZ

paulchiu said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, looks like it. You could also get three of them for not much more.
> ...


 
  
 Paul, mine are no-name products, bought in a Zurich store for cheap. Just take any adapter for that purpose! I'm sure it will offer the same result. Or maybe not, since you have a completely different setup.
  
 If you're not satisfied with the result, we could make an arrangement via PM. But I'm convinced the make doesn't matter.


----------



## paulchiu

jazz said:


> Paul, mine are no-name products, bought in a Zurich store for cheap. Just take any adapter for that purpose! I'm sure it will offer the same result. Or maybe not, since you have a completely different setup.
> 
> If you're not satisfied with the result, we could make an arrangement via PM. But I'm convinced the make doesn't matter.


 
  
 i am just messing with you.


----------



## tkteo

Came across this article on switching power supplies versus linear power supplies.
 http://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/152143111-audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy


----------



## paulchiu

tkteo said:


> Came across this article on switching power supplies versus linear power supplies.
> http://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/152143111-audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy


 
  
 This stuff is not getting enough press over the years.  It cost money to shield transformer from the nasty stuff.
 Kudos to Chord for the great design in the DAVE, especially in the power section.
  
 Paul


----------



## Sunya

Rob, could you tell how Dave gets the extra 6 dB of gain in preamp mode vs the DAC mode? Is Dave running with 6 dB of digital headroom (max output at -6dBFS) in DAC mode?


----------



## Rob Watts

jazz said:


> Thanks, Jawed, for explaining!
> 
> I have always asked myself what exactly this «Pulse Array» could be. Now it turns out to be based on Pulse Width Modulation (PWM), which I happen to be somewhat familiar with.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I started to reply to this, and turned it into a blog post, as it got a bit long!
  
 See here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/800264/watts-up/120#post_12586725
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

sunya said:


> Rob, could you tell how Dave gets the extra 6 dB of gain in preamp mode vs the DAC mode? Is Dave running with 6 dB of digital headroom (max output at -6dBFS) in DAC mode?


 
 The display setting of -3dB in DAC mode is the same as pre-amp mode - its just the volume control is permanently set to -3dB.
  
 Dave has inbedded overload margins, for lots of different reasons, so it will actually only clip at volumes above +4dB. -3dB is 3v RMS, +4dB will give 6.7V RMS from the headphone or RCA outputs.
  
 Rob


----------



## Sunya

If the volume is set at -3dBFS in DAC mode, how can it go to +4dB? Shouldn't 0dBFS be maximum output or 4.23V from RCA?


----------



## Crgreen

Just been informed my Dave is arriving this week, earlier than expected. Hurrah!


----------



## esimms86

Go to this link and scroll down to the first video. It's nothing earth shattering but you at least get something of the feel of being in the Chord room with DAVE at Munich.
  
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/700-images-munich-high-end-2016-part-1-3/


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> This stuff is not getting enough press over the years.  It cost money to shield transformer from the nasty stuff.
> Kudos to Chord for the great design in the DAVE, especially in the power section.
> 
> Paul


 
 @tkteo, now you're going to make Paul more paranoid than he already is.
  
 Paul, I think it's time to get one of these:
  
 http://www.pksafety.com/dupont-reflector-suit.html?gclid=COa9nOzG4cwCFU1gfgodzZIB7w


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> @tkteo, now you're going to make Paul more paranoid than he already is.
> 
> Paul, I think it's time to get one of these:
> 
> http://www.pksafety.com/dupont-reflector-suit.html?gclid=COa9nOzG4cwCFU1gfgodzZIB7w


 
  
 Thanks Roy!
  
 Just ordered 3, for the family.
  
 Paul


----------



## Crgreen

Dave arrived and installed, running through its balanced outputs. Beautifully liquid sound with much better grip and control than the Hugo, and enormous dynamic range. It's been running for about 24 hours. What's the usual burn-in time?


----------



## lovethatsound

crgreen said:


> Dave arrived and installed, running through its balanced outputs. Beautifully liquid sound with much better grip and control than the Hugo, and enormous dynamic range. It's been running for about 24 hours. What's the usual burn-in time?


congratulations on getting your dave.burn-in time around 600 hours I'd say.Enjoy your music


----------



## Crgreen

If so, thank goodness it sounds this good after 24!

It's a lot of money, but I'm now thinking of it this way - I've just acquired a new music collection.


----------



## Peter Hyatt

crgreen said:


> Dave arrived and installed, running through its balanced outputs. Beautifully liquid sound with much better grip and control than the Hugo, and enormous dynamic range. It's been running for about 24 hours. What's the usual burn-in time?


 

 Congratulations!
  
 Oh, how your description makes me want to hear my favorite recordings through DAVE!  
  
 "Beautiful liquid sound" and "enormous dynamic range"!


----------



## STR-1

crgreen said:


> Dave arrived and installed, running through its balanced outputs. Beautifully liquid sound with much better grip and control than the Hugo, and enormous dynamic range. It's been running for about 24 hours. What's the usual burn-in time?




I now face running in my second Dave. Mine finally arrived today after living with a loan Dave for six weeks. I can't remember with the loan (which only had about five hours use before I got it) how long it took to reach the point when it stopped improving but I'm sure it was over 200 hours.


----------



## lovethatsound

str-1 said:


> I now face running in my second Dave. Mine finally arrived today after living with a loan Dave for six weeks. I can't remember with the loan (which only had about five hours use before I got it) how long it took to reach the point when it stopped improving but I'm sure it was over 200 hours.


well it's a very pleasant experience running a Dave in,so you get to enjoy it all over again . congratulations on getting your own Dave,enjoy your music.


----------



## Crgreen

Well, for the first time I'm actually going to enjoy burn-in.

Possibly to state the obvious, I now understand how Robb Watts and Chord have worked this. The Huho was (is) an outstanding product, its faithful rendition of timbre being its most obvious feature. The Mojo is a trickle-down bargain, but with the Dave Rob just went for it, given the opportunity to see how far he could take things. Without wishing to sound too hyperbolic, we're not talking musical reproduction here, more recreation.

I had to wait five weeks for my Dave, but I'm betting that once Stereophile, the Absolute Sound and Hi-Fi Plus publish their reviews (surley forthcoming?) it's going to take considerably longer than that.

Listening to Jeff Beck tearing it up at Ronnie Scott's at the moment. I quite liked the album before - it now sounds like a masterclass in electric guitar.


----------



## JaZZ

crgreen said:


> Listening to Jeff Beck tearing it up at Ronnie Scott's at the moment. I quite liked the album before - it now sounds like a masterclass in electric guitar.


 
  
 Usually not a reference for high fidelity, but I also fell in love with DAVE's reproduction of electric guitars.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

Out of interest, my understanding of the DAVE is that is basically uses software (lots and lots of lines of code) to define its output characteristics.  If that's true, then I suppose potentially DAVE could get different 'software' versions to change its signature, correct?
  
 I suppose also the code could be refined further as well?


----------



## tkteo

bigfatpaulie said:


> Out of interest, my understanding of the DAVE is that is basically uses software (lots and lots of lines of code) to define its output characteristics.  If that's true, then I suppose potentially DAVE could get different 'software' versions to change its signature, correct?
> 
> I suppose also the code could be refined further as well?


 
  
 I *think* I recall Mr Watts mentioning that DAVE can be sent in when there is a major update to the code.
  
 But best to hear from Mr Watts himself.


----------



## x RELIC x

bigfatpaulie said:


> Out of interest, my understanding of the DAVE is that is basically uses software (lots and lots of lines of code) to define its output characteristics.  If that's true, then I suppose potentially DAVE could get different 'software' versions to change its signature, correct?
> 
> I suppose also the code could be refined further as well?




More than just the WTA filter. There's also the Pulse Array DACs and the way it handles the analogue output that's very transparent. From what I've been reading of Rob's posts (highly recommended) he basically stuffed the FPGA full with all the code he could. He's repeatedly said (Hugo, 2Qute, TT, Mojo) that if there is a significant improvement to the sound he would provide the update of the code, but it would need to go back to Chord for the update.

I see it like this... Nobody asks for updates to the filters in a ESS Sabre, BurrBrown, CS, TI, etc., DAC. Rob just uses FPGA chips for his filter because they allow so much more flexibility (and capability) from the get go to implement his code.


----------



## rkt31

there are some YouTube videos of dave playing. as said by Rob what is instantly noticeable is the timing and starting/ stopping of notes. this is evident even in the video. it sounds as if recorded live.


----------



## miketlse

bigfatpaulie said:


> Out of interest, my understanding of the DAVE is that is basically uses software (lots and lots of lines of code) to define its output characteristics.  If that's true, then I suppose potentially DAVE could get different 'software' versions to change its signature, correct?
> 
> I suppose also the code could be refined further as well?


 
  
 See post #7429 http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post/7425
  
 Rob Watts has said in other posts that the main code for the DAC processing is mature, and was essentially identical for the Hugo, Hugo TT, Mojo, 2Qute and DAVE, which helps to explain the similarities in their sound reproduction.
 The main technical changes in all these models seem to be related to the power supplies, reducing RF interference, the size and capability of the FPGA chip itself, and handling the input signals to the DAC (and i think that this is the area where most, if not all code updates will have taken place). 
 The FPGA chip seems to be obeying Moores Law, in just the same way that the CPU in your desktop/laptop/phone does - ie every 18 months the capability doubles, and the power use halves. This translates into Robs DAC code stays the same, but each successive generation of FPGA can simultaneously run the code on a greater number of cores.
  
 It would be nice to think that future upgrades to DAVE could be performed in a similar manner to vacuum tube rolling, ie every two years you send your DAVE back to Chord, and they unplug the FPGA from its socket, and replace it with the newest generation of FPGA. No updates to the code needed. I suspect I am being rather optimistic, because I would expect that in reality, the FPGA is soldered into the circuit board.


----------



## Samuel Snoopy

At least I know number of taps, filter levels, DSD filter and number of pulse array Dac elements are different amongst these brother Dacs.


----------



## iDesign

> Originally Posted by *miketlse* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> It would be nice to think that future upgrades to DAVE could be performed in a similar manner to vacuum tube rolling, ie every two years you send your DAVE back to Chord, and they unplug the FPGA from its socket, and replace it with the newest generation of FPGA. No updates to the code needed. I suspect I am being rather optimistic, because I would expect that in reality, the FPGA is soldered into the circuit board.


 
  
 I agree and feel this is the right strategy for high-end digital audio companies to address issues of obsolescence and customer loyalty. If I were to purchase a $13,300 product, I would prefer that it is a longterm investment into a _platform_ that could be updated for a small fee. A manufacturer like Chord also benefits because they retain the customer for a longer period of time and the product updates become a stable revenue source. I'm personally not interested in any companies that attempt to carry sales with the iPhone 5, 5S, 6, 6S, 7 approach-- and for the manufacturer, this approach has the effect of creating a secondhand market and a steep depreciation curve of their own products. So while Chord may or may not have specifically designed the DAVE to be upgraded over time, I hope this is the path they will take for the future products with Rob Watts' designs.


----------



## Rob Watts

Ok, a few points.
  
 Break-in - about 10 minutes.
  
 Well yes that was to get your attention, and my honest answer is I do not know for sure, except that brain break-in is by far the biggest factor. In October I did an update to the code, getting ready for final production. This update had a SQ change, and it was not small.
  
 I did the change on a unit that had at least 10,000 hours on it, so it was well and truly broken in. But the SQ change from the code took several months for the feeling that SQ was improving to stop, so brain break-in (getting used to the sound and I suspect the brain learning new ways to process the SQ) is very real - at least to me.
  
 I actually have a brand new unit coming next week, so I can test for how much is down to hardware changes.
  
 FPGA - yes its soldered in - and I have to do this. FPGA sockets creates too much inductance, and so decoupling becomes a major issue. At best using sockets it will just sound and measure badly, at worse it will simply not function. But Moore's law is definitely running out of steam. The 7 series FPGA's were "launched" in Sep 2011, and the devices were only really available last year. The ultrascale parts are not suitable for audio, so there are no better FPGA's on the horizon. But lets say Xilinx have a wonder FPGA available tomorrow in quantity, then I can't just drop what I am doing and re-design Dave. It is not a simple process of dropping a new chip in - a replacement to Dave (assuming new display too) would be a one man year of work for me, and with all the other projects happening, this will be many years away.
  
 Code updates - my background in chip design forces you to make hardware that is right first time, which means lots and lots of testing before tape-out. And I treat FPGA design as hardware, not software. But you are limited by two things - knowledge and the FPGA. With the vast resources available in Dave's FPGA, its knowledge that is the limiter. I suspect I will learn a lot from the Davina project, so if this relates to a SQ improvement for a DAC I will put it in Dave. I will only do a code update if we are talking about a significant and worthwhile change in SQ.
  
 Chord's Korean distributor asked for a simple block diagram for Dave so here goes:
  

  
 And the different code for DSD+ :
  

  
 Rob


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Revelatory stuff Rob. As always, thank you for sharing.

Here's a question regarding the plan to launch amplifiers where the digital code runs on from Dave and is converted to analogue at the speaker O/P:

To the layperson this implies a measure of obsolescence in the Dave feature set as it will no longer be used as a Dac. So will the amplifier act as an enhancement to the Dave process or merely an alternative?

Being a business investor I am always looking at how companies monetise their tech and it seems to me if you can add to the processing capability of Dave in terms of SQ with the new amps in a serial processing strategy then owning a Dave as well as the amp would be a very desirable and effective selling strategy for Chord in that it both sells more units and further excludes the competition from any part of the audio path. Edit: (if the buyer wishes to achieve the very best SQ possible)


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

To take that strategy further, it would probably be of even greater potential for the less powerful Dac's in Chord's lineup.


----------



## Crgreen

Thanks Rob. I'm not sure my brain has ever really broken in, so it will be an interesting exercise


----------



## miketlse

Thanks Rob. Your posts about the design of DACs as an engineering system (and how different designs affect the sound quality), are always interesting.


----------



## Articnoise

rob watts said:


> Ok, a few points.
> 
> Break-in - about 10 minutes.
> 
> ...


 
  

 The best way to evaluate the change made by burn in (break-in) is to compare one DAVE that have been used for several hundreds of hours to one that is totally new. By comparing two units side by side we can remove things like brain burn in and audio memory. And now to my point. Who has access to both a well burned in DAVE as a new one (hint hint)?


----------



## Jawed

daveredref-iii said:


> To the layperson this implies a measure of obsolescence in the Dave feature set as it will no longer be used as a Dac. So will the amplifier act as an enhancement to the Dave process or merely an alternative?



If you look at the block diagram for PCM+ mode you can see that 160 DSP cores are used before the DX digital output, which is the vast majority of the FPGA's capability. So the obsolescence is pretty minimal.

I wonder if there's an error in the block diagrams Rob has provided. They imply that the DX digital output is at fixed level, implying that volume control is in the power amplifier, not DAVE.

If that's true, then that gets a bit complicated when DAVE is connected to two monoblock digital amplifiers, as they both have to have matched volume control.


----------



## Rob Watts

The block diagram is correct, but simplified. The DX transmits 705 or 768 kHz 24 bits at full level in order to maximize signal performance, I transmit within the user data the volume control setting, so the DX power amp will do the volume control at the optimum point.
  
 The user data also has a code to state that it is a DX connection - not that any other 768 kHz coaxial sources are available.
  
 Rob


----------



## Christer

rkt31 said:


> there are some YouTube videos of dave playing. as said by Rob what is instantly noticeable is the timing and starting/ stopping of notes. this is evident even in the video. it sounds as if recorded live.


 

 Good news indeed .
 Absolutely no need to pay the very very  high price of a real Dave! All one needs to do is  to watch a You Tube video with a Dave playing!


----------



## rudi0504

I would like to share open the box Chord Dave in Black Color

Thank you Chord Indonesia Distributor Jonathan Marten fpr your help for this Chord Dave in Black

It is my Best Dac Amp now 

Source :
AK 240 SS 

Dac / Amp :
Chord Dave Black 

Headphone :
LCD X with SAA Endorphin and Adapter 4 Pin to 6,3 mm

Music :
Allan Taylor 

File :
DSD

Cable :
Chord Optical Cable 

My LCD X sound better than before


----------



## rkt31

@Christer, believe me in India the possibility of auditioning Dave is very remote even in capital Delhi. I live about 200 km from Delhi but still it is very unlikely that chord distributer will ever offer it for audition. if someone enquires about the price , they demand about half of the payment in advance because of dave's high price. so only option I have to listen to dave on YouTube video.


----------



## Peter Hyatt

Rudi,
  
 Congratulations and thanks for sharing the pictures!  
  
 Perhaps nothing is worse, or nothing is better, than hearing the descriptions of what DAVE does to the music!  
  
 Anyone know of a location where DAVE is demoed in Portland Maine or even Boston?  Man, I'd love to listen!


----------



## Christer

rkt31 said:


> @Christer, believe me in India the possibility of auditioning Dave is very remote even in capital Delhi. I live about 200 km from Delhi but still it is very unlikely that chord distributer will ever offer it for audition. if someone enquires about the price , they demand about half of the payment in advance because of dave's high price. so only option I have to listen to dave on YouTube video.


 

 Atcha!
 But if I remember correctly there are  at least some audio shops in the  Connaught area  of Delhi aren't there?
  
 Although it is most likely about as good as digital gets judging from my auditioning it in Singapore, personally I am currently back home in Sweden  wallowing  in the superb sound of well recorded classical western and some Indian music   from my pretty big analogue LPs collection via electrostatic speakers and a powerful amp. Mainly pure joy and in some respects  better and closer to the real sound of live acoustic instruments  performing in a real space  than both my Hugo and Benchmark HGC DAC 2.
 But I would really like to  hear Dave  via speakers.
 Unfortunately  my car just broke down so buying a Dave is currently not a main priority.
 And frankly good as it is, it is still very  overpriced imho.


----------



## paulchiu

rudi0504 said:


>


 
  
  
 I got my DAVE last month.  I am enjoying it since.  Still burning in and working around some high-res files issues.  
 When the package arrived, I was a bit surprised by the packaging, rather pedestrian and that plastic bag was rough and taped over in layers.  Perhaps Chord saves cost that way.  LOL
  
 Enjoy your new DAVE.
  
 Paul


----------



## theveterans

> And frankly good as it is, it is still very  overpriced imho.


 
  
 IMHO, if no other DAC can outperform it at the same or 1/2 of its price, it's not overpriced. You get what you paid for with the DAVE imho.


----------



## rudi0504

peter hyatt said:


> Rudi,
> 
> Congratulations and thanks for sharing the pictures!
> 
> ...




Hi Peter 
Thank you 
This is my best DAC now


----------



## rudi0504

paulchiu said:


> I got my DAVE last month.  I am enjoying it since.  Still burning in and working around some high-res files issues.
> When the package arrived, I was a bit surprised by the packaging, rather pedestrian and that plastic bag was rough and taped over in layers.  Perhaps Chord saves cost that way.  LOL
> 
> Enjoy your new DAVE.
> ...




Hi Paul 

Thank you and i enjoy so much since yesterday night until this morning 

For you too the same please enjoy your Dave

I am agree for so expensive Dac Amp Dave Packaging look so cheap


----------



## rudi0504

theveterans said:


> IMHO, if no other DAC can outperform it at the same or 1/2 of its price, it's not overpriced. You get what you paid for with the DAVE imho.




IMHO is the same like you

I try to find proper for my desktop set up
With many dac 
From April music 
Chord Hugo 
Chord Hugo TT
And many more 
Chord Dave is the best in term SQ now


----------



## rkt31

@Christer, though there is a showroom of Profx (authorized representative of chord in India ) but I don't think they will have dave in Delhi for audition. Profx are based in Bangalore where they might have dave some time for audition. sadly Bangalore is in South India and it is far from my place. Dave may or may not be overpriced but yes it is expensive piece of gear and having a price equivalent to a decent mid price car in India. may be some day I would be able to have it but right now the priority is like you is a car for my better half.


----------



## paulchiu

VERY GOOD NEWS
 on playing DSD128 or DSD256 native files with the DAVE using at least Roon 
  
 FIrst, a brief history since my DAVE arrived a couple weeks back.  Music played wonderfully for a new machine.  I started throwing hi-Def DSD files onto it using Audirvana Plus, JRiver Media Center and Roon on a Macbook Pro Mid 2014 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD.  The files would not play smoothly.  Plenty of pauses and dropouts.  So much so I began to wonder if my DAVE was defective.
  
 Well, @romaz told me it was not and he was right.
  
 Earlier tonight I got both Parallels Desktop 11 for MAC to run windows on a Macbook Pro.
  
 Got Parallels Desktop from Amazon
  
http://goo.gl/ltg8zQ
  
Then another $125 for Windows 10 Home
  
http://goo.gl/Uv2hzS
  
  
Then Downloaded the Chord Dave Windows drivers on the bottom of this page:
http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/products-info.asp?id=98
  
  
DSD now plays beautifully on the Macbook Pro running DSD files up to DSD256 natively!!!
  

  
  

  
  
  

  
 Paul


----------



## rkt31

I have posted earlier also . j river has problem in streaming dsd256. I found foobar to be best and most transparent while streaming dsd256. what more foobar does not take much resources of pc as it does not have its own processing engine like j river. keep foobar light and add only those plugin which you need.


----------



## paulchiu

rkt31 said:


> I have posted earlier also . j river has problem in streaming dsd256. I found foobar to be best and most transparent while streaming dsd256. what more foobar does not take much resources of pc as it does not have its own processing engine like j river. keep foobar light and add only those plugin which you need.


 
  
 I just installed JRiver Media Center 21.0.80 for Windows running under Parallels.
 Played a 3+ minutes DSD256 file with no issues.
 This bit-perfect took up little system resources.
 It is tough to decide whether JRiver plays less well than Roon right now as the levels on the defaults are not equal.
  
 I have to say listening to Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue by Crystal Gayle right now with the DAVE brings the sultry country singer at a foot or so right in front of me.  Using the AKG K812 with JRiver.  The illusion is uncanny.
  
 Paul


----------



## holeout

paulchiu said:


> VERY GOOD NEWS
> on playing DSD128 or DSD256 native files with the DAVE using at least Roon
> 
> FIrst, a brief history since my DAVE arrived a couple weeks back.  Music played wonderfully for a new machine.  I started throwing hi-Def DSD files onto it using Audirvana Plus, JRiver Media Center and Roon on a Macbook Pro Mid 2014 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD.  The files would not play smoothly.  Plenty of pauses and dropouts.  So much so I began to wonder if my DAVE was defective.
> ...


 
  
Have the same problem with DSD files dropout with iMac / Audirvana Plus and to a lesser extent Aurender W20. I've consulted Rob Watts and here is reply:
  
"The problem I have is that with Dave is when DoP fails, I immediately mute the OP, as otherwise you can get big bangs and pops - so a DoP tick error becomes a mute which is easy to hear.Your other DAC's will have the same errors, but it won't be so obvious that the data is faulty.
  
Myself I use win with jRiver and get no pops ever, even with DSD256. 
  
Regards Rob"
  
Good to hear JRiver and Chord driver is also working well with your setup and I'll be switching over to JR. Just contacted Aurender support and hope they can come back with a solution soon.


----------



## x RELIC x

It seems using direct DSD is the way to go in Windows. I don't have a DAVE (yet) but in Audirvana+ there is a direct DSD option instead of DoP. Has anyone tried this with the DAVE using DAVE's DSD+ mode? Apologies if I've missed it in the thread.


----------



## Christer

paulchiu said:


> I got my DAVE last month.  I am enjoying it since.  Still burning in and working around some high-res files issues.
> When the package arrived, I was a bit surprised by the packaging, rather pedestrian and that plastic bag was rough and taped over in layers.  Perhaps Chord saves cost that way.  LOL
> 
> Enjoy your new DAVE.
> ...


 
  As far as "burn in" time goes I think Rob made it pretty clear in a very recent post!
 Ten minutes warming up time.


----------



## Rob Watts

x relic x said:


> It seems using direct DSD is the way to go in Windows. I don't have a DAVE (yet) but in Audirvana+ there is a direct DSD option instead of DoP. Has anyone tried this with the DAVE using DAVE's DSD+ mode? Apologies if I've missed it in the thread.


 
 If direct DSD is native DSD (not DoP DSD but transmitting DSD data directly) then it has much lower processor overhead and is much less likely to tick/mute when the data is in error.
  
 Its amazing that you need an i7 just to do the trivial task of re-packaging DSD data to DoP format - something an FPGA can do trivially.
  
 Rob


----------



## x RELIC x

rob watts said:


> If direct DSD is native DSD then it has much lower processor overhead and is much less likely to tick/mute when the data is in error.
> 
> Its amazing that you need an i7 just to do the trivial task of re-packaging DSD data to DoP format - something an FPGA can do trivially.
> 
> Rob




The reason I ask Rob is in OSX, as you know, there are no drivers for the DAVE to select native DSD through the driver so owners are at the mercy of DoP or how the player software can output native DSD. Do you by chance know if native DSD is generally possible in an OSX environment to the DAVE without using DoP?

I should point out that I'm not a user of DSD, but I do like a good mystery.


----------



## Rob Watts

I have no practical experience of OSX - Matt from Chord handles all that testing. Actually I was talking to him on Friday about native DSD (non DoP DSD) and OSX and he wasn't aware of any way to do it with OSX.
  
 The problem with UAC2 USB (that's the driverless USB) is that it does not handle faulty data - with Windows, the driver re-sends the data in case of an error. I have never had a single glitch with JRiver on DSD64 and DSD128, and nothing with DSD256 and DSD512 using Foobar and native (non DoP DSD).
  
 Windows 10 with Chrome is another story though...
  
 Rob


----------



## x RELIC x

rob watts said:


> I have no practical experience of OSX - Matt from Chord handles all that testing. Actually I was talking to him on Friday about native DSD (non DoP DSD) and OSX and he wasn't aware of any way to do it with OSX.
> 
> The problem with UAC2 USB (that's the driverless USB) is that it does not handle faulty data - with Windows, the driver re-sends the data in case of an error. I have never had a single glitch with JRiver on DSD64 and DSD128, and nothing with DSD256 and DSD512 using Foobar and native (non DoP DSD).
> 
> ...




Thanks for the reply Rob. That's along the lines of what I was thinking.


----------



## paulchiu

holeout said:


> Have the same problem with DSD files dropout with iMac / Audirvana Plus and to a lesser extent Aurender W20. I've consulted Rob Watts and here is reply:
> 
> "The problem I have is that with Dave is when DoP fails, I immediately mute the OP, as otherwise you can get big bangs and pops - so a DoP tick error becomes a mute which is easy to hear.Your other DAC's will have the same errors, but it won't be so obvious that the data is faulty.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Those sudden pops can be scary but does wake me up in the middle of the night. lol
 Please let us know when Aurender replies.
  
 Paul


----------



## paulchiu

rob watts said:


> I have no practical experience of OSX - Matt from Chord handles all that testing. Actually I was talking to him on Friday about native DSD (non DoP DSD) and OSX and he wasn't aware of any way to do it with OSX.
> 
> The problem with UAC2 USB (that's the driverless USB) is that it does not handle faulty data - with Windows, the driver re-sends the data in case of an error. I have never had a single glitch with JRiver on DSD64 and DSD128, and nothing with DSD256 and DSD512 using Foobar and native (non DoP DSD).
> 
> ...


 
  
 Was running Windows 10 under Parallels Desktop 11 on a Macbook Pro 2014 under OS 10.11.5.
 Extremely happy now that everything runs, from 44.1 to DSD256 (do not have any DSD 512 files).
 Using both JRiver Media Center and Roon. (I think when the levels are equal, JRiver was nearly as good sounding as Roon)
  
 That point on Chrome is interesting in that when I popped open a Chrome browser when everything sounded perfect, I got a loud pop during DAVE play.  Then more nasty hisses.  I closed Chrome, restarted JRiver and all was well.  I wonder Rob, if this is what you maybe referring to.
  
 Paul


----------



## izzard1982

paulchiu said:


> That point on Chrome is interesting in that when I popped open a Chrome browser when everything sounded perfect, I got a loud pop during DAVE play.  Then more nasty hisses.  I closed Chrome, restarted JRiver and all was well.  I wonder Rob, if this is what you maybe referring to.


 
 I believe this is due to each application handles audio driver differently. For example, when playing music using Roon with Chord ASIO driver in Windows 10 while the main windows audio device is set to Chord ASIO, whenever another application is trying to output sound, I got the nasty pop and hisses and the music stopped. But this doesn't happen if I select WASAPI in Roon instead of Chord ASIO. Foobar doesn't have this issue regardless which driver you use.


----------



## paulchiu

izzard1982 said:


> I believe this is due to each application handles audio driver differently. For example, when playing music using Roon with Chord ASIO driver in Windows 10 while the main windows audio device is set to Chord ASIO, whenever another application is trying to output sound, I got the nasty pop and hisses and the music stopped. But this doesn't happen if I select WASAPI in Roon instead of Chord ASIO. Foobar doesn't have this issue regardless which driver you use.


 
  
 Please post links to Foobar and all  the components needed for DSD64 to DSD512 play with DAVE?
 Thanks
  
 Paul


----------



## romaz

rob watts said:


> I have no practical experience of OSX - Matt from Chord handles all that testing. Actually I was talking to him on Friday about native DSD (non DoP DSD) and OSX and he wasn't aware of any way to do it with OSX.
> 
> The problem with UAC2 USB (that's the driverless USB) is that it does not handle faulty data - with Windows, the driver re-sends the data in case of an error. I have never had a single glitch with JRiver on DSD64 and DSD128, and nothing with DSD256 and DSD512 using Foobar and native (non DoP DSD).
> 
> ...


 
 Rob, I am working with the manufacturer of a Linux-based music server presently (the microRendu) and he is trying to port a native DSD signal (non DoP) from his server to the DAVE but he suggests that "Chord needs to support the native DSD format for Linux."  He asked me to have you (or Matt) look at this link although I am unsure if the DAVE uses XMOS USB chipset:
  
 https://github.com/lintweaker/xmos-native-dsd
  
 Any thoughts?


----------



## romaz

rob watts said:


> If direct DSD is native DSD (not DoP DSD but transmitting DSD data directly) then it has much lower processor overhead and is much less likely to tick/mute when the data is in error.
> 
> Its amazing that you need an i7 just to do the trivial task of re-packaging DSD data to DoP format - something an FPGA can do trivially.
> 
> Rob


 
 Rob, here is why you need an i7 to re-package DSD data to DoP format using Roon:
  
  

  
 As you can see, there's quite a bit of re-sampling going on.  Moreover, the output is no longer bit-perfect.  This is why it would be so helpful to be able to send the DAVE a native DSD signal (not DoP).  Unfortunately, with this Linux-based server, there is no way to use Chord's ASIO driver.


----------



## Torq

paulchiu said:


> VERY GOOD NEWS
> on playing DSD128 or DSD256 native files with the DAVE using at least Roon
> 
> FIrst, a brief history since my DAVE arrived a couple weeks back.  Music played wonderfully for a new machine.  I started throwing hi-Def DSD files onto it using Audirvana Plus, JRiver Media Center and Roon on a Macbook Pro Mid 2014 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD.  The files would not play smoothly.  Plenty of pauses and dropouts.  So much so I began to wonder if my DAVE was defective.
> ...


 

 While it's good to know that that solution works, it's even more involved (if slightly cheaper) from a day-to-day management perspective than standing up a dedicated Windows box to run a Roon node on (VMs are less tolerant of host sleep-states than native machines).  And for mobile scenarios, it's a non-starter in several ways ... first, it'll absolutely crucify battery life on the laptop (for those machines that are specced well enough to do it in the first place) second, it'll be more overhead than they can handle (e.g. the little Retina Mac Book I prefer to take with me when I travel) and third it means switching playback software on the go since running Roon in a portable environment means another subscription.
  
 In my search for a DAC that I preferred to Yggdrasil, I had pretty high hopes that the Hugo TT or DAVE would be contenders, particularly based on how good Mojo sounds.  But if that's what's required to use them to their fullest then my interest falls to zero pretty quickly.  It also, from a practical perspective, kills using the Mojo for any non-single-rate DSD files on the go.  This absolutely trips my "too many hoops" concern.
  
 For a $600 component, never mind a $13000 one, I expect it to work seamlessly and without the need to resort to such nonsense or at _least_ have the caveats to its usage properly documented.
  
 ...
  
 What's really required here is an appropriate audio interface or driver be built for OS X.  The most common approach is the "Virtual Sound Card" approach, which is used by companies like Linn, Merging, Focusrite and so on for their home and professional products (where it's very common).  There are third-party and open source implementations as well.  If that's a path that Chord will follow to fully enable usage of their products in an OS X environments, then I'll keep DAVE on my audition list.  If not, then it comes off as I'm not going to get pushed into running Windows just to use an expensive piece of optional hardware.
  
 Of course, another solution is just skip DSD entirely.  That wouldn't be hard.  It also means than "DSD" support or operation of any prospective DAC purchase has been made moot for me, which pretty much shoots the bulk of the marketing for a lot of DACs straight in the head.


----------



## Torq

paulchiu said:


> VERY GOOD NEWS
> on playing DSD128 or DSD256 native files with the DAVE using at least Roon
> 
> FIrst, a brief history since my DAVE arrived a couple weeks back.  Music played wonderfully for a new machine.  I started throwing hi-Def DSD files onto it using Audirvana Plus, JRiver Media Center and Roon on a Macbook Pro Mid 2014 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD.  The files would not play smoothly.  Plenty of pauses and dropouts.  So much so I began to wonder if my DAVE was defective.
> ...


 

 Just out of interest, despite there being no possibility of me operating in this mode as a standard way of using any DAC, I set this up for myself with the Mojo out of pure curiosity.
  
 I'm using VMware instead of Parallels (not something I'm going to switch either).
  
 For some reason, it works fine except that if I attempt to play ANY DSD file (single, double or quad rate) the sample rate indicator on the Mojo goes out and it plays nothing.  No errors, no complaints from Room, it looks like it's playing, but it's not actually doing anything.  Choose a non-DSD album and it plays fine.
  
 It's clear the ASIO driver is talking to the Mojo.
  
 It'll play PCM quite happily.
  
 Roon is configured to use the Chord ASIO 1.05 driver and the "DSD Playback Strategy" is set to "Native".
  
 Yet DSD plays silence; PCM plays fine.
  
 Bizarrely if I set the thing to use DoP 1.0 instead, then it'll send the data to the Mojo, the sample rate indicator goes white, and it plays.


----------



## Jawed

Mojo is DoP only I believe. Ask the Mojo thread?...


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> I'm also guessing that most people will be using the mR with its short, hard adapter to connect to the USB input on their dac. I haven't seen any reports so far of people comparing this mode of connecting the mR to using an audiophile USB cable between the mR and the dac. Another point of curiosity.
> 
> Mostly, though, I'm interested in just how sensitive or insensitive the DAVE is to the mR. For example, with DAVE is there any real sonic difference between the SonicOrbiter SE and the mR? A laptop computer and the mR? If so, how big of a difference might this be and how much might it vary depending on the power supply used with the mR? I think these would be the primary considerations in deciding whether to purchase the mR for use with DAVE, and deciding how much to spend on a power supply.


 
  
 I finally finished my post on my impressions with various USB cables and ethernet cables with the microRendu and the DAVE.  For those interested, here it is:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/787020/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box/345#post_12599842


----------



## paulchiu

torq said:


> Just out of interest, despite there being no possibility of me operating in this mode as a standard way of using any DAC, I set this up for myself with the Mojo out of pure curiosity.
> 
> I'm using VMware instead of Parallels (not something I'm going to switch either).
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, most likely your Mojo is like the Hugo and that it's DoP.
 DSD over PCM, meaning DSD bitstreams to a DAC that doesn't use custom ASIO (in the case of Mojo and Hugo) 
 They are using raw DSD drivers. 
 There is no PCM conversion.
The white color confirms it is playing DSD.
  
Paul


----------



## romaz

jawed said:


> Mojo is DoP only I believe. Ask the Mojo thread?...


 
 Mojo can accept a native DSD signal in Windows when Chord's ASIO driver is used.  This is what Rob had to say on the Mojo thread when asked about the playback of DSD256 files on the Mojo:
  
"The problem is the processor overhead needed to do DoP. When Hugo/Mojo sees a DoP flag fault, I force a mute to prevent bangs. Faster processors have no problems.
  
But Hugo TT should be the same as Mojo. Mojo will also do native DSD via ASIO, and this mode is less likely to need more processor overhead - if you app supports native DSD (as opposed to DoP DSD as both are true DSD formats) then give that a go."
  
Rob


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> Mojo can accept a native DSD signal in Windows when Chord's ASIO driver is used.  This is what Rob had to say on the Mojo thread when asked about the playback of DSD256 files on the Mojo:
> 
> "The problem is the processor overhead needed to do DoP. When Hugo/Mojo sees a DoP flag fault, I force a mute to prevent bangs. Faster processors have no problems.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Asides from those bangs, pops and frizzles shocking us out of our seats, our equipment (DAVE, speakers, headphones) should be safe.
 These early testing days with the DAVE, I set everything to low levels to protect my greatest piece of gear, my ears.  
  
 Paul


----------



## Crgreen

The Dave burn-in continues (I think Rob's comment that I takes 10 minutes was humerous) and I've noted a significant increase in loudness, reflecting a better dynamic range. I've had to turn things down a bit.


----------



## Rob Watts

crgreen said:


> The Dave burn-in continues (I think Rob's comment that I takes 10 minutes was humerous) and I've noted a significant increase in loudness, reflecting a better dynamic range. I've had to turn things down a bit.


 
 It was and yet I was making a point. When I designed Dave I never intended it to be transportable, but that is how I have ended up using it.
  
 When traveling, I use Mojo, then when I get into the hotel out comes Dave. Stone cold, within 10 minutes the SQ is up to speed and via headphones then never changes after about 10 minutes. No messing, or trouble, just the simple pleasure of enjoying music....
  
 Rob


----------



## Mython

rob watts said:


> .... No messing, or trouble, just the simple pleasure of enjoying music....
> 
> Rob


 
  
  
 I'm sorry; that's not something I'm familiar with, here on head-fi.
  
 Can you please provide an in-depth technical explanation of what you mean?


----------



## galacticsoap

Hi Guys,
  
 I'm thinking of entering the DAVE club, however a few (potentially trivial) questions I'm hoping you guys could help me with.
  
 Part of the appeal of the DAVE is it's form factor which would allow me to take it with me when I'm traveling and use it similar to how Rob described in his post above i.e. in a hotel room listening to my headphones.
  
 The laptop the unit would be connected would be running Windows 10. My questions are:
  
 1) Is it simply a matter of downloading a driver to enable the DAVE to connect to a Windows PC? 
 2) Once connected does the DAVE show up as a "playback device" in the sound settings in Windows?
 3) While the bulk of my listening will be lossless and high-res material, there will be, on occasion (brace yourselves lads) times where I'll be streaming Spotify, and even perhaps Youtube clips. We'll these play through the DAVE i.e. does the ease of DAVE's connectivity start and end with a player like JRiver/Foobar/Roon on Windows and anything web based is a different kettle of fish?
  
 Your help is greatly appreciated,
  
 Thanks,
 AS


----------



## Rob Watts

galacticsoap said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I'm thinking of entering the DAVE club, however a few (potentially trivial) questions I'm hoping you guys could help me with.
> 
> ...


 
  
 1) - yes
 2) - yes
 3) - yes - sort of. JRiver can throw a wobbly, so I shut Chrome down, open JRiver, then shut it down and open Chrome. But every once in a while re-start... JRiver also can misbehave when in sleep mode too.
  
 Rob


----------



## Crgreen

I'm streaming Spotify via a Cambridge Audio Stream Magic to my Dave, and it sounds terrific. As with the Hugo, SQ is so good, MP3s aren't a problem. It really is about enjoying the music.


----------



## izzard1982

paulchiu said:


> Please post links to Foobar and all  the components needed for DSD64 to DSD512 play with DAVE?
> Thanks
> 
> Paul


 
 You can follow the link below.
  
 http://www.psaudio.com/ps_how/how-to-play-dsd-files-on-foobar/


----------



## rudi0504

Oppo PM 1 Best Desktop Set Up 

Source :
VentureCraft Valog SounDroid

Dac / Amp :
Chord Dave as Pire DAC

Desktop Amp :
Mass KoBo 394

Headphone :
Oppo PM 1 with Balance Cable XLR 4 Pin 

Cable :
Chord Optical Cable 
RCA Shunyata Anaconda ZTrone

These Desktop Set Up are Best set up pair with Oppo PM1


----------



## shuttlepod

romaz said:


> Rob, I am working with the manufacturer of a Linux-based music server presently (the microRendu) and he is trying to port a native DSD signal (non DoP) from his server to the DAVE but he suggests that "Chord needs to support the native DSD format for Linux."  He asked me to have you (or Matt) look at this link although I am unsure if the DAVE uses XMOS USB chipset:
> 
> https://github.com/lintweaker/xmos-native-dsd
> 
> Any thoughts?


 

 I suspect that Roy and I will be just two of the many people who end up using a DAVE with the Sonore microRendu Linux-based server/streamer and using the Roon endpoint with the microRendu. And most of us will probably want to play DSD files with this setup (I have almost 400 GB of DSD files). So if you have any thoughts, Rob, about the possibility of supporting the native DSD format for Linux, we are ALL EARS. Thanks!


----------



## romaz

galacticsoap said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I'm thinking of entering the DAVE club, however a few (potentially trivial) questions I'm hoping you guys could help me with.
> 
> ...


 
 I have my Mac connected to DAVE via optical cable and run everything through the DAVE from Spotify, Youtube, Netflix, Hulu, Roku, etc and it all can sound very good.  Ultimately, lossless files sound best but content can be just as important and the DAVE does a good job with providing a nice smooth and listenable presentation even though it is very transparent to poor recordings.  In the past, I have found Windows not to sound as good as Macs or Linux servers in part because Windows has so many processes running in the background that can impact SQ and also because the ASIO drivers written by various DAC companies have left much to be desired.  There are even 3rd party ASIO drivers people go to because their DAC's ASIO driver is so substandard.  I am discovering that Chord's ASIO driver is not that way at all and that the Windows experience may be superior to other operating systems.
  
 Also, having now traveled cross country with my DAVE in a backpack, it has proven to be a very capable traveling companion.  The only exception is dealing with TSA here in the U.S. as the DAVE can come across looking like a weapon of mass destruction.


----------



## Torq

jawed said:


> Mojo is DoP only I believe. Ask the Mojo thread?...


 
  
  


paulchiu said:


> Well, most likely your Mojo is like the Hugo and that it's DoP.
> DSD over PCM, meaning DSD bitstreams to a DAC that doesn't use custom ASIO (in the case of Mojo and Hugo)
> They are using raw DSD drivers.
> There is no PCM conversion.
> ...


 
  
  


romaz said:


> Mojo can accept a native DSD signal in Windows when Chord's ASIO driver is used.  This is what Rob had to say on the Mojo thread when asked about the playback of DSD256 files on the Mojo:
> 
> "The problem is the processor overhead needed to do DoP. When Hugo/Mojo sees a DoP flag fault, I force a mute to prevent bangs. Faster processors have no problems.
> 
> ...


 
  
 As @romaz says, it should be playing native DSD, without the need for DoP encoding, using the Chord ASIO 1.05 driver.  This fails.  It'll happily play PCM via that driver, but any native DSD output results in the Mojo turning off it's sample rate light and going silent.  I suspect this is a problem with either the driver/installation (I've tried uninstalling/re-installing), or the fact that the instance of Windows is in a VM.
  
 Using DoP format via the ASIO driver results in the same drop-out issues that using DoP over direct OS X USB connection does above single-rate DSD quality.
  
 Even pre-converting a DSD to file to DoP format PCM, so that no at-play-time processing overhead is required to get the data (this completely eliminates CPU/processing overhead as a concern), results in playback dropouts for DSD128 or DSD256.
  
 So, things I'm sure about:
  
 1. It's absolutely not a CPU/performance issue.  If it were no Mac, especially running software via  a VM, would be able to get close to playing back DSD256.
 2. For some reason the Chord ASIO 1.05 driver is not working correctly in my setup (or there's an issue with my Mojo).
  
 It's frustrating and completely putting me off investigating the higher-end models in Chord's line-up, since I have no intention of this kind of hoop-jumping to make one work.
  
 Anyway, thanks those who've had input and suggestions, in particular @romaz, @paulchiu, @Mython and @x RELIC x - for now I'll take the issue up directly with Chord, since it seems odd it would be this much hassle to playback DSD256 via high-end OS X hardware when other, much cheaper DACs, can pull it off without any real hassle.  If I get a resolution I'll cross-post it here, and the Mojo thread, for the benefit of all
  
 Thanks again, enjoy your DAVEs!


----------



## JaZZ

torq said:


> As @romaz says, it should be playing native DSD, without the need for DoP encoding, using the Chord ASIO 1.05 driver. This fails.  It'll happily play PCM via that driver, but any native DSD output results in the Mojo turning off its sample rate light and going silent. I suspect this is a problem with either the driver/installation (I've tried uninstalling/re-installing), or the fact that the instance of Windows is in a VM.
> 
> Using DoP format via the ASIO driver results in the same drop-out issues that using DoP over direct OS X USB connection does above single-rate DSD quality.
> 
> ...


 
  
 With _foobar2000_ (in Windows 7) and the same configuration as for DAVE, my Mojo doesn't play native DSD, just DOP – this without dropouts. In other words: While the Mojo fails, DAVE plays native DSD256 without problems – after a bit of fiddling and help from a fellow Head-Fier.


----------



## Torq

jazz said:


> With _foobar2000_ (in Windows 7) and the same configuration as for DAVE, my Mojo doesn't play native DSD, just DOP – this without dropouts. In other words: While the Mojo fails, DAVE plays native DSD256 without problems – after a bit of fiddling and help from a fellow Head-Fier.


 
  
 Interesting.
  
 I'd have no issue with it running via DoP vs. "native" if it worked when it did so ... but it doesn't; it still drops out at double and quad rate.
  
 At the same time, there's no scenario in which I'm running a Windows machine (or VM) as a standard part of my audio system.  So the ultimate solution has to involve it either running without drop-outs in DSD mode (native or DoP) either directly from my OS X machines OR from the Auralic Aries (doesn't work there either, same limitations).
  
 I've emailed Chord; we'll see what they say.


----------



## romaz

Some promising news although unfortunately, this applies only to Roon and Sonore's Sonicorbiter SE and microRendu.  I cannot speak for JRiver, Foobar or other playback software with other servers.  Andrew Gillis, creator of the software for both the Sonicorbiter SE and microRendu remoted into my machine today and reviewed my logs and educated me about a few things but also provided me reason to be very hopeful.
  
 First of all, with Roon and DoP, according to Andrew, there should be no transcoding happening and the signal should remain bit-perfect.  As I play a DSD128 file using my Linux-based sonicTransporter (this Roon server has a very underpowered CPU that draws <5 watts), as you can see below, the signal remains "Lossless" or bit-perfect (based on the purple dots) all the way through and it plays fine:
  
  

  
 When I try to play a DSD256 file, you will notice below that now, transcoding from DSD to PCM is occurring and the signal is no longer bit-perfect (based on the green dots).  As the Signal Path now states "High Quality" instead of "Lossless", this is your other indicator that the signal is no longer bit-perfect.  Indeed, with all the transcoding that is happening, this weak CPU in the sonicTransporter just gives up and within 5 seconds, the music completely stalls:
  

  
 I can overcome this with my powerful Mac Pro and DSD256 will play fine, however, this signal is still no longer bit-perfect which is less than ideal. 
  
 As Andrew inspected the Roon logs, it appears Roon is not recognizing the DAVE as being capable of DSD256 playback via DoP and so this is why transcoding is happening.  It would appear that the problem lies within Roon!  Fortunately, Andrew has a direct relationship with Roon and he will try and have this remedied quickly (perhaps a fix will be available with the next Roon build which seems to be coming out every few weeks).  
  
 I told him our ultimate goal would be to have Roon and the microRendu send the DAVE (and other Chord DACs) a native DSD signal and not DoP and I confirmed for him that the DAVE is capable of receiving such a signal.  He could not make me a definitive promise but he didn't see why this can't happen if Chord DACs are "compliant with the USB spec" (I'm not sure what that means).  Fortunately, he told me he knows some of the guys at Chord and that he will try and initiate dialog and get back to me.


----------



## shuttlepod

That sounds really promising, Roy. As you said before, fingers crossed. 
  
 I have to say I am more than impressed with the customer service exhibited by the entire Sonore team of John S., Jesus, and Andrew Gillis. They must be putting in some really long days because everyone and their uncle is asking questions, and many are highly technical issues that require some real thought and work. Kudos to the entire Sonore team.


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> That sounds really promising, Roy. As you said before, fingers crossed.
> 
> I have to say I am more than impressed with the customer service exhibited by the entire Sonore team of John S., Jesus, and Andrew Gillis. They must be putting in some really long days because everyone and their uncle is asking questions, and many are highly technical issues that require some real thought and work. Kudos to the entire Sonore team.


 
 Andrew and Jesus just got back to me a few minutes ago and they have already implemented a fix even before a Roon update and now, I am capable of streaming DSD256 flawlessly and it is completely bit-perfect through my microRendu!  This is happening even with the low power CPU on my sonicTransporter.  For those with a Sonicorbiter SE or microRendu, you will need to update the firmware which is a fairly simple matter:


----------



## shuttlepod

romaz said:


> Andrew and Jesus just got back to me a few minutes ago and they have already implemented a fix even before a Roon update and now, I am capable of streaming DSD256 flawlessly and it is completely bit-perfect through my microRendu!  This is happening even with the low power CPU on my sonicTransporter.  For those with a Sonicorbiter SE or microRendu, you will need to update the firmware which is a fairly simple matter:


 

 Wow, this is just really impressive collaboration with a customer to solve a problem. Kudos to you for identifying and raising the issue -- you are truly on the bleeding edge. And kudos to Andrew and Sonore for implementing this so quickly. These guys are pretty smart and extremely dedicated.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> Andrew and Jesus just got back to me a few minutes ago and they have already implemented a fix even before a Roon update and now, I am capable of streaming DSD256 flawlessly and it is completely bit-perfect through my microRendu!  This is happening even with the low power CPU on my sonicTransporter.  For those with a Sonicorbiter SE or microRendu, you will need to update the firmware which is a fairly simple matter:


 
  
 Roy,
  
 This is what I am getting as well running Windows 10 off a Macbook Pro using Parallels Desktop 11.
 Roon Windows with DSD256 files.
  

  
  
 JRiver Media Center also works with DSD256.
  
 Paul


----------



## drdkey

shuttlepod said:


> Wow, this is just really impressive collaboration with a customer to solve a problem. Kudos to you for identifying and raising the issue -- you are truly on the bleeding edge. And kudos to Andrew and Sonore for implementing this so quickly. These guys are pretty smart and extremely dedicated.


 

 Over the weekend I set up my just received Dave with the sonicTransporter and microRendu and the sound quality has been amazing. Andrew was extremely responsive and helpful to my questions about some setup questions with the sonicTransporter AP. Great customer service!
 I have a Luxman 700 amp and initially used Magnan interconnects. I can't use the hard connector with RCA interconnects as the left channel RCA output is very close to the USB port. A friend had a pair of balanced interconnects and they sounded magnificent. I obviously can't tell if the balanced interconnects sound better because of using the hard connector with the microRendu and using a patch cable with the RCA interconnects? Has anyone else run into this problem? Is there an extended version of the hard connector? 
 Thank you Romaz for your persistence with the DSD issue. I had a problem this weekend with streaming it and I will try the update on the microRendu


----------



## drdkey

The other question that I have is does anyone know any differences in the RCA  versus left and right balanced outputs and is there and advantage of one over the other on the Dave?


----------



## shuttlepod

As a friend pointed out, it appears that Andrew Gillis' firmware mod to the microRendu will allow the DAVE to play DSD (up to at least 256) over DoP, rather than natively.  See this:
  
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/showpost.php?p=5463
  
 Regardless, I am thrilled that he came up with an easily-implemented solution.


----------



## shuttlepod

drdkey said:


> Over the weekend I set up my just received Dave with the sonicTransporter and microRendu and the sound quality has been amazing. Andrew was extremely responsive and helpful to my questions about some setup questions with the sonicTransporter AP. Great customer service!
> I have a Luxman 700 amp and initially used Magnan interconnects. I can't use the hard connector with RCA interconnects as the left channel RCA output is very close to the USB port. A friend had a pair of balanced interconnects and they sounded magnificent. I obviously can't tell if the balanced interconnects sound better because of using the hard connector with the microRendu and using a patch cable with the RCA interconnects? Has anyone else run into this problem? Is there an extended version of the hard connector?
> Thank you Romaz for your persistence with the DSD issue. I had a problem this weekend with streaming it and I will try the update on the microRendu


 

 Romaz had the same issue with his High Fidelity IC's. I'm pretty sure there is not an extended version of the hard adapter. Instead, you will probably need to find a USB cable if you want to use your RCA IC's without a patch cable. If I recall correctly, Rob says that going single ended sounds better than balanced, but I'm too lazy to look it up right now. You might try searching the thread for this info.


----------



## drdkey

shuttlepod said:


> Romaz had the same issue with his High Fidelity IC's. I'm pretty sure there is not an extended version of the hard adapter. Instead, you will probably need to find a USB cable if you want to use your RCA IC's without a patch cable. If I recall correctly, Rob says that going single ended sounds better than balanced, but I'm too lazy to look it up right now. You might try searching the thread for this info.


 

 I see this was discussed in post 2704 and 2707. Romaz noted that Chord had the Dave connected to monoblocks  via XLR at CES. I updated  microRendu successfully but could only get the sonicTransporter to load the last song played. I figured that I may also need to update SW on the sonicTransporter, which seemed successful, but now my music files can't be found. Fortunately I only had a few albums on it. I have reached out to Andrew Gillis so I will see what he has to say.


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> Roy,
> 
> This is what I am getting as well running Windows 10 off a Macbook Pro using Parallels Desktop 11.
> Roon Windows with DSD256 files.
> ...


 
  
 Paul, 
  
 Clearly, to be able to use DAVE's ASIO driver is the best bet but as you may or may not realize, with that driver, you are limited only to local playback through your Windows computer.  This means that the functionality of that driver doesn't extend to other devices like the microRendu that you have on order.  In other words, once your microRendu arrives, without Sonore's fix, you would once again be limited to DSD 64 and 128 playback.
  
 If your end goal is to stay with your Windows environment, then you're all set.  However, I believe almost 100% of people who buy a microRendu buy it for only one reason and that is superior SQ, above and beyond what you can get through your Windows PC or Mac and in my personal experience, above and beyond any digital source I have heard (period).  I have no problem using my Mac via optical to watch a youtube video or even listen to an occasional track on Spotify but when I want to sit and _really_ listen to all that the DAVE can provide, then I do it through my microRendu.  Once you get yours, I believe it will spoil you and you will be disappointed when you have to use something else.  To now have the ability to stay with my microRendu for playback of _any_ PCM or DSD file and remain bit-perfect is a wonderful thing!


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> I have to say I am more than impressed with the customer service exhibited by the entire Sonore team of John S., Jesus, and Andrew Gillis. They must be putting in some really long days because everyone and their uncle is asking questions, and many are highly technical issues that require some real thought and work. Kudos to the entire Sonore team.


 
 I agree, Jon.  They are a class act.


----------



## romaz

drdkey said:


> Over the weekend I set up my just received Dave with the sonicTransporter and microRendu and the sound quality has been amazing. Andrew was extremely responsive and helpful to my questions about some setup questions with the sonicTransporter AP. Great customer service!
> I have a Luxman 700 amp and initially used Magnan interconnects. I can't use the hard connector with RCA interconnects as the left channel RCA output is very close to the USB port. A friend had a pair of balanced interconnects and they sounded magnificent. I obviously can't tell if the balanced interconnects sound better because of using the hard connector with the microRendu and using a patch cable with the RCA interconnects? Has anyone else run into this problem? Is there an extended version of the hard connector?
> Thank you Romaz for your persistence with the DSD issue. I had a problem this weekend with streaming it and I will try the update on the microRendu


 
 Congratulations again, David!  As we share an identical digital front end (sonicTransporter > microRendu > DAVE), I feel I can relate to everything you're experiencing.  
  
 If you have the choice (and you do with your Luxman), I would suggest you stay with your single ended interconnects and avoid using the hard connector.  First, I believe Rob will tell you that this is the connection that sounds the most transparent (but I will admit the balanced connection sounds excellent).  Second, while this hard USB connector sounds as good as all but the most expensive USB cable I tested, it really offers no unique advantage other than it came free with your microRendu.  By no means would I consider it a superior solution.  Furthermore, to use it leaves your microRendu dangling in the air leaving it vulnerable to damage especially as you weigh it down with your ethernet and DC cables.  Without supporting it, you would violate the warranty and while beauty is in the eye of the beholder, personally, I don't think it's aesthetically attractive to connect it this way.  I suspect any of the USB cables you already have in your possession will serve you equally well but certainly, do your own comparisons.  If you're not using a USB cable with special RF filtering capabilities, I would suggest you use as short a USB cable as possible (1 meter or less).  The only USB cable that sounded inferior in my testing was a generic USB cable that was 2 meters long (at least 2x longer than the other cables I tested) but even this cable sounded very good.  I believe a good set of interconnects will make so much more difference in terms of SQ than a USB cable and so I would suggest that you not let a USB cable influence which interconnects to use.


----------



## romaz

drdkey said:


> The other question that I have is does anyone know any differences in the RCA  versus left and right balanced outputs and is there and advantage of one over the other on the Dave?


 
 The DAVE is intentionally a single-ended (SE) design as Rob felt this to be superior to balanced although he will tell you this required a lot of "figuring out" to make it superior to balanced.  If you stay SE, there is only one op amp in the analog chain and this single op amp performs both I to V conversion and headphone amplification (pretty amazing!).  It's one of the reasons the headphone output of the DAVE sounds so transparent.  If you use the balanced outputs, a second op amp is introduced in the chain as this is necessary to do the SE to balanced conversion and this will impact transparency to some degree.  While you probably will have no complaints should you choose the balanced outputs, "best practices" would suggest that you use the RCA outputs if you can.


----------



## x RELIC x

romaz said:


> The DAVE is intentionally a single-ended (SE) design as Rob felt this to be superior to balanced although he will tell you this required a lot of "figuring out" to make it superior to balanced.  If you stay SE, there is only one op amp in the analog chain and this single op amp performs both I to V conversion and headphone amplification (pretty amazing!).  It's one of the reasons the headphone output of the DAVE sounds so transparent.  If you use the balanced outputs, a second op amp is introduced in the chain as this is necessary to do the SE to balanced conversion and this will impact transparency to some degree.  While you probably will have no complaints should you choose the balanced outputs, "best practices" would suggest that you use the RCA outputs if you can.




Actually, Rob's analogue output designs are discrete... no opamps, from everything I've read from him on the topic.


----------



## romaz

x relic x said:


> Actually, Rob's analogue output designs are discrete... no opamps, from everything I've read from him on the topic.


 
 There's no way I could make this stuff up.  Here is Rob's response to my question some time ago:
  
*Hi Rob,*
  
*...does the DAVE through its SE outputs use only a single op amp (like the Mojo) to perform both I to V conversion as well as drive headphones?*
  
*If so, do the balanced outputs use 2 **op amps** (I to V conversion + SE to differential conversion)?*
  
  
"Yes its same simplicity as Hugo/Mojo but the single I/V stage has the analogue noise shaper.
  
For balanced its just a regular op-amp providing the negative signal from the SE I/V stage.
  
Regards Rob"


----------



## Rob Watts

You are both right - all my Dac's have discrete OP stages, but all use an op-amp as the starting point. So you can think of it as an op-amp that has the op stage replaced with a much better Class A discrete OP stage. The feedback loop around the amp includes the discrete OP stage.
  
 With Dave we have two op-amps and one discrete OP stage, as the SE OP is a 2nd order analogue noise shaper (or nested feedback loop), and this eliminates all OP stage distortion, without compromising transparency (as its still one global feedback path with the equivalence of two resistors and two capacitors).
  
 The solution of replacing the op-amp OP stage with a discrete one works really well, and I use it even when I do not need large current OP's (like 2 Qute). The limitations of today's high performance op-amps are very much in the op-stage.
  
 Getting this arrangement to work (discrete OP stage and single feedback around the OP stage and op-amp) needed very fast OP stages as the OP stage propagation delay adds to phase shift.
  
 Rob


----------



## x RELIC x

romaz said:


> There's no way I could make this stuff up.  Here is Rob's response to my question some time ago:
> 
> *Hi Rob,*
> 
> ...




As in cheap opamp chips from suppliers. It's just a different definition of op-amp we are talking about.




Spoiler: Regarding Mojo






> > Quote:
> > *Originally Posted by Rob Watts* View Post
> >
> >
> > ...








> Spoiler: From Hugo the thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Currawong

rob watts said:


> I have no practical experience of OSX - Matt from Chord handles all that testing. Actually I was talking to him on Friday about native DSD (non DoP DSD) and OSX and he wasn't aware of any way to do it with OSX.
> 
> The problem with UAC2 USB (that's the driverless USB) is that it does not handle faulty data - with Windows, the driver re-sends the data in case of an error. I have never had a single glitch with JRiver on DSD64 and DSD128, and nothing with DSD256 and DSD512 using Foobar and native (non DoP DSD).
> 
> ...


 
  
 Amarra Plus can do both kinds of DSD transmission -- native or DoP. The latter should use effectively no processing, as it is just a PCM-like container with the DSD data inside, necessary for passing it through equipment that needs to see PCM packet headers and the like. If you're seeing a lot of CPU in something like the Roon player, then it is due to re-sampling as someone pointed out. 
  
 I'm borrowing a DAVE next month. I'll try it with DSD and see how things go.


----------



## mtoc

Folks, why the amazing preamp in Dave is so darn good? Like to hear its secret.


----------



## x RELIC x

mtoc said:


> Folks, why the amazing preamp in Dave is so darn good? Like to hear its secret.




Because it's so simple and transparent to the DAC. A good place to start is to read all of Rob Watts' posts as he has shared a mountain of information on his designs.


----------



## TheAttorney

Dave has entered the building.. for the 3rd time. This one I've paid for, so just as well I'm getting on fine with it.
  
 I won't bore you with my second round of burn-in impressions (because not much to say), but I _will_ bore you with cable talk:
  
 Firstly, I've proven again to myself that my TQ balanced cables to my fully balanced BHSE sound significantly better than my more expensive Transparent SE cables.
 The Transparents have served me well over the years, but I no longer need their slightly softening/dulling effect. Transparency and openness is now king for me - my system is good enough not have to tone down harsher recordings. The conclusion I think is that, whatever the theoretical advantages of Dave's SE output, this is more than cancelled out by the input design of the amp, or by the quality of the cable itself.
  
 Secondly, based on others recommendations, I've just had delivery of the Mapleshade optical cable. to compare with my still-on-loan AQ Diamond and Dave's stock optical. 
 Last time round, I thought that the AQ sounded better than a low cost optical cable (not Dave's), but that was only brief impressions, so in the next week or two I'll be able to do a more conclusive comparison.
 And hopefully the Mapleshade will confirm its promise and save me lots of money compared to the AQ.


----------



## rudi0504

Tonight i have tried my LG CD transport to Chord Dave

My April Music CDA 500 Still with my friend now

Source :
LG CD Transport 

Dac / Amp :
Chord Dave as pure DAC

Pre amp :
Tube Pre Amp T+A P 10.2

Headphone :
Abyss 1266

Cable :
LG CD Transport to Chord Dave use 
Coax Ztrone Shunyata phyton Digital

Chord Dave to T+A P10.2 use 
RCA Shunyata Ztrone Anaconda

These set up is my Ultimate desktop set up now 

With my April Muaic CDA 500 sound much better than my LG CD transport only $120 USD


----------



## esimms86

I recently received a pair of High Fidelity Cables MC-0.5 Magnetic Wave Guides in the mail. The purchase price was 549.00 USD plus shipping. I first plugged both Wave Guides into my PS Audio Power Plant 5 power conditioner and then went off to dinner. I should state this particular setup is in my family room with a Sony XBR 1080p flat screen, Motorola cable box and OPPO BDP 103D attached. From the music side I have a Marantz PM KI integrated receiver being fed by a Geek Pulse Signature Edition DAC, with music data input from an Auralic Aries LE. I use DAVE exclusively for headphone listening in a different room.
  
 After dinner my wife and I sat down to watch television. The video quality was astounding. I thought that I had traded up to a higher resolution television. I'm not saying that the picture was 4K quality but it was immediately and remarkably better than the already high quality Sony XBR 1080p without the Wave Guides in place. We next resumed watching "The Jewel In the Crown" through the OPPO. The picture from this DVD is grainy in keeping with its origins as a circa 1984 television production. With the Wave Guides in place there was still a grainy picture(you can only get so much improvement from an old video, after all) but again noticeably much less so.
  
 The next day I listened to a variety of music, obviously through the music portion of the same system. I was again immediately impressed. The key aspects were the increase in detail and soundstage, the improved transients, the noticeable natural slow decay of music at song's end and the very silent background. The strings and bass guitar were also better integrated into the whole on listening to the Beatles' "I Am the Walrus," for instance. The timbre of the bass was more subtle and lifelike on listening to Piltch and Davis' "Take One." Instruments were both better isolated and yet better integrated into the whole, and the interplay between musicians became more apparent and enjoyable. In sum, the delta in performance between the Geek Pulse SE(which is certainly no slouch) and DAVE had clearly narrowed, at least for the moment.
  
 And then I tried the Wave Guides with DAVE. Everything I said about the sound with the Geek Pulse SE was again true with DAVE in place, however, the "magnitude"(pun intended) was so much greater. This was money clearly well spent. At this point, I am looking to purchasing another pair of Wave Guides in order to have them available in each system. I am also beginning to put money aside for an HFC CT-1 power cable(2000 USD) and MC-6 Hemisphere power conditioner(2800 USD) to connect to DAVE. The HFC magnetic RCA adapters(549.00 USD) are also on the horizon for pairing DAVE with my Blue Hawaii amplifier. Of course, I'd prefer the HFC XLR interconnects but they are prohibitively expensive at 4400.00 USD, I believe for one(!) if I'm not mistaken. I could also use CT-1 RCA connectors but, again, that would be an expense that I'm not willing or ready to incur(an additional 1600.00 USD) for an already very expensive headphone setup. I know there is no such thing as "end game" in this hobby but, with this setup, I think I could much more than "make do" very nicely.
  
 Thanks to Romaz for introducing me to High Fidelity Cables. As they say around here, "welcome to HeadFi. I'm sorry for your wallet."
  
 Esau


----------



## shuttlepod

esimms86 said:


> I recently received a pair of High Fidelity Cables MC-0.5 Magnetic Wave Guides in the mail. The purchase price was 549.00 USD plus shipping. I first plugged both Wave Guides into my PS Audio Power Plant 5 power conditioner and then went off to dinner. I should state this particular setup is in my family room with a Sony XBR 1080p flat screen, Motorola cable box and OPPO BDP 103D attached. From the music side I have a Marantz PM KI integrated receiver being fed by a Geek Pulse Signature Edition DAC, with music data input from an Auralic Aries LE. I use DAVE exclusively for headphone listening in a different room.
> 
> After dinner my wife and I sat down to watch television. The video quality was astounding. I thought that I had traded up to a higher resolution television. I'm not saying that the picture was 4K quality but it was immediately and remarkably better than the already high quality Sony XBR 1080p without the Wave Guides in place. We next resumed watching "The Jewel In the Crown" through the OPPO. The picture from this DVD is grainy in keeping with its origins as a circa 1984 television production. With the Wave Guides in place there was still a grainy picture(you can only get so much improvement from an old video, after all) but again noticeably much less so.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks, Esau, for your impressions. I already own the HFC CT-1 Enhanced interconnects, which I will be using with DAVE (when it arrives, hopefully very soon). I should add that I'm also a big fan of interconnects made by WyWires. 
  
 This is probably a question mainly for Roy, who has had the most experience with HFC products. Since the MC-0.5 Magnetic Wave Guides and the Magnetic Adapters that you can use with existing interconnects are about the same price, which do you see as providing greater bang for the buck? Does it come down to specific implementations within a system? Perhaps these magnetic components have different effects on different components? In any event, I'd be interested in this particular comparison, as I imagine others might be also since these are the most affordable HFC products one can buy.


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> Dave has entered the building.. for the 3rd time. This one I've paid for, so just as well I'm getting on fine with it.
> 
> I won't bore you with my second round of burn-in impressions (because not much to say), but I _will_ bore you with cable talk:
> 
> ...


 
 Congratulations!  I'm sure no one has to tell you that if it sounds better, than it is better.  Whether it's the cable or perhaps because the BHSE sounds better balanced, I guess it doesn't matter.
  
 Hopefully, the Mapleshades work out for you.


----------



## romaz

esimms86 said:


> I recently received a pair of High Fidelity Cables MC-0.5 Magnetic Wave Guides in the mail. The purchase price was 549.00 USD plus shipping. I first plugged both Wave Guides into my PS Audio Power Plant 5 power conditioner and then went off to dinner. I should state this particular setup is in my family room with a Sony XBR 1080p flat screen, Motorola cable box and OPPO BDP 103D attached. From the music side I have a Marantz PM KI integrated receiver being fed by a Geek Pulse Signature Edition DAC, with music data input from an Auralic Aries LE. I use DAVE exclusively for headphone listening in a different room.
> 
> After dinner my wife and I sat down to watch television. The video quality was astounding. I thought that I had traded up to a higher resolution television. I'm not saying that the picture was 4K quality but it was immediately and remarkably better than the already high quality Sony XBR 1080p without the Wave Guides in place. We next resumed watching "The Jewel In the Crown" through the OPPO. The picture from this DVD is grainy in keeping with its origins as a circa 1984 television production. With the Wave Guides in place there was still a grainy picture(you can only get so much improvement from an old video, after all) but again noticeably much less so.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the report, Esau.  Most things are system dependent so you never know for sure what will sound good in your own system.  Some things can actually disrupt the balance we each have worked hard to achieve but I have found, as you have, that High Fidelity Cables seem to enhance anything that receives power or passes along a signal, from audio equipment to televisions.  You do have to be careful, though, because this magnetic conduction technology seems to scale so well the higher you go up HF's chain that most of us will run out of money well before we reach the top of HF's mountain.  
  
 On the High Fidelity thread on the Audiogon forum, you'll find a bunch of crazy guys on there that are so addicted to this technology that they look for creative ways to add more and more MC-0.5s to their circuit.  Some of them have even brought in an electrician to add more outlets to their circuit or they've bought an MC-6 power conditioner (with 6 receptacles) just so they can load it up with MC-0.5s and connect it to the line and many of these guys have a dozen or more of these MC-0.5s in their system.  Some have suggested you can mimic a higher level High Fidelity mains cable just by adding more magnets and so this may be a relatively inexpensive way of moving up the High Fidelity chain.  The advantage of this method is you can add more MC-0.5s at your preferred pace and as your finances allow without having to sink a ton of cash on a mains cable at one time but I will say that the impact of a HF mains cable or the Hemisphere is considerably more prominent.  What you'll be surprised to know is that the impact of those adapters will continue to grow in the coming weeks because it takes time to magnetize a whole system with just a couple of magnets, probably at least a month.  You will also find that as you remove the magnets, your components will remain magnetized for a while, sometimes a few hours, which makes it challenging to A/B quickly.  
  
 Magnetizing your power line tends to have a broader impact on all your components and you will especially see this with the MC-6 Hemisphere since it can supply 6 of your components.  This is for sure a high "bang for the buck" item as far as HF gear goes.  Even if you load the Hemisphere with components that have noisy switching power supplies, I'm finding it almost doesn't matter.  Many have said that taking care of power is the "ounce of prevention" part of Benjamin Franklin's famous quote and that addressing the signal is the "pound of cure" suggesting that if you take care of power first, you don't have to work as hard having to fix the signal later.  While I believe this to be true in principle for most things, in my system, with the HF Cables, I am finding even more impact by magnetizing the analog signal.  If you listen mainly to speakers, the cabling can get pretty expensive but if you use RCA interconnects, the RCA adapters are a good place to start without breaking the bank.  Even better, if you are into headphones, just wait for HF's headphone device to be released.  For not much money (hopefully about $300 as a starting point), your headphones and the DAVE will elevate to another level completely.


----------



## esimms86

Roy, thanks for reminding me of the HFC headphone device. For a headphone setup the headphone device plus 2 MC-0.5's for under 900 USD sounds like potentially the best bang for the buck. The problem as I see it with HFC and DAVE is DAVE's price. That is, it's not difficult to justify spending money at HFC's entry level(or even the CT-1 series level) when trying to optimize your listening experience with a DAC that sells for 13,300 USD. Speaking as someone trying to get away from GAS, it reminds of the line in "The Godfather Part 3":  "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!"


----------



## bigfatpaulie

Is there an approximate timeline for the HF headphone device? I suppose it will be about the same time my DAVE arrives at this pace! 

This has been a very interesting read thus far. Thank you, Roy.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

Ha!  I stand corrected!  I just got a call from my dealer and my DAVE should be there tomorrow!!  Guess what I'm doing this weekend?!


----------



## Crgreen

I've been using Dave with balanced outputs since I got it just over a week ago. I've also connected the SE outputs to a different input on my preamp. I've not really done any proper comparisons - the difference between output levels makes that rather difficult - and any difference could be attributable to the fact that I'm using different cables for each output. The balanced outputs sound fine. I'll try not to let theory get in the way of listening to music.

An additional point is that my power amp only has balanced inputs. Therefore, the conversion from SE to balanced will have to take place at some point. Initially, I've taken the view that it's better it occur in the Dave than my pre-amp.


----------



## rkt31

that magnetic guiding tech HF has to be something special otherwise anyone can simply put two or three cheaply available neodymium magnetic tablets around the cable and get some effect. I have not tried but I think ferrite core may too have same effect to some extent. these ferrite chokes are though effective for removing noise from digital data transmission and power transmission but can have negative impact on analog line. on headphone the ferrite chokes simply robbed too much of finer Treble details also even on digital line using more than one ferrite choke closely causes some kind of softness and modulation sort of thing which is subtle but noticeable. I wonder using too much magnet on analog line can have negative impact too.


----------



## romaz

rkt31 said:


> that magnetic guiding tech HF has to be something special otherwise anyone can simply put two or three cheaply available neodymium magnetic tablets around the cable and get some effect. I have not tried but I think ferrite core may too have same effect to some extent. these ferrite chokes are though effective for removing noise from digital data transmission and power transmission but can have negative impact on analog line. on headphone the ferrite chokes simply robbed too much of finer Treble details also even on digital line using more than one ferrite choke closely causes some kind of softness and modulation sort of thing which is subtle but noticeable. I wonder using too much magnet on analog line can have negative impact too.


 
 I don't know how magnetism is applied with HF cables except that the technology is patented and so it can't be as simple as adhering magnets to the cable.  With the cables (as opposed to the adapters), there's also the matter of the proprietary conductor that is used which is some form of coaxial alloy.  As you know, traditional cables based on traditional metallurgy (copper, silver, etc.) operate on the principle that the less EMI in the line, the better and so technology is put into place (ie ferrite chokes) to reject or dissipate EMI.  In other words, magnetism is the enemy.  With HF cables, it's exactly the opposite and these cables are trying to apply as much magnetism to the line as possible but in a very controlled and purposeful fashion.  This is why I have come to believe that any other cable that operates on traditional principles can never fully impart the same qualities as HF cables.
  
 Yes, I believe too much line conditioning based on traditional methods can rob music of its energy.  Sometimes, too much smoothness can be undesirable because it can be at the expense of resolution, especially in the treble region.  What I am finding with HF's magnetic conduction technology is the more, the better.


----------



## Articnoise

romaz said:


> I don't know how magnetism is applied with HF cables except that the technology is patented and so it can't be as simple as adhering magnets to the cable.  With the cables (as opposed to the adapters), there's also the matter of the proprietary conductor that is used which is some form of coaxial alloy.  As you know, traditional cables based on traditional metallurgy (copper, silver, etc.) operate on the principle that the less EMI in the line, the better and so technology is put into place (ie ferrite chokes) to reject or dissipate EMI.  In other words, magnetism is the enemy.  With HF cables, it's exactly the opposite and these cables are trying to apply as much magnetism to the line as possible but in a very controlled and purposeful fashion.  This is why I have come to believe that any other cable that operates on traditional principles can never fully impart the same qualities as HF cables.
> 
> Yes, I believe too much line conditioning based on traditional methods can rob music of its energy.  Sometimes, too much smoothness can be undesirable because it can be at the expense of resolution, especially in the treble region.  What I am finding with HF's magnetic conduction technology is the more, the better.


 
  

 Mad Scientist cables like in their Heretical Analog PLUS use carbon fibers as a signal conductor. This for reduce skin effects. It use copper only as a passive foil screen. Another way of dealing with the problem metal conductors can create. Another difference to more normal cables is that its SPDIF cables are only 37 ohms instead of 75.

  

 http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/mad-scientist-hac-and-hac-plus-best-interlinks-for-ec-designs-mosaic-dac/


----------



## JaZZ

romaz said:


> I don't know how magnetism is applied with HF cables except that the technology is patented and so it can't be as simple as adhering magnets to the cable.  With the cables (as opposed to the adapters), there's also the matter of the proprietary conductor that is used which is some form of coaxial alloy.  As you know, traditional cables based on traditional metallurgy (copper, silver, etc.) operate on the principle that the less EMI in the line, the better and so technology is put into place (ie ferrite chokes) to reject or dissipate EMI.  In other words,* magnetism is the enemy.*  With HF cables, it's exactly the opposite and these cables are trying to apply as much magnetism to the line as possible but in a very controlled and purposeful fashion.  This is why I have come to believe that any other cable that operates on traditional principles can never fully impart the same qualities as HF cables.
> 
> Yes, I believe too much line conditioning based on traditional methods can rob music of its energy.  Sometimes, too much smoothness can be undesirable because it can be at the expense of resolution, especially in the treble region.  What I am finding with HF's magnetic conduction technology is the more, the better.


 
  
 I also would like to know the geometry of the magnet arrays to try it myself. But as long as no insider information is leaking, there's probably no hope to get any insight. Maybe some of the users of HF cables can get an idea from the looks of them?
  
 I don't think magnetism is harmful for high frequencies. The phenomenon causing high-frequency loss is called inductance, and responsible for it is the AC induced alternating magnetic field. So it's not the same as a magnetic field from permanent magnets such as neodymium magnets.


----------



## Beolab

HF are using ferrite magnets in 360 degrees formation in the adapters from what i understand, but what are the using for the leading material ?


----------



## JaZZ

I've just begun reading their patent, it looks like it's not just a matter of equipping conventional cables with magnet rings or tubes, so trying to copy their cables is a fruitless undertaking. The conductors are said to consist of ferromagnetic material and are connected to the magnets.


----------



## rkt31

any plan of chord making multi channel processor based on Hugo/dave technology for home cinema use. I wonder what will be the realism in movies if chord makes such processor because even in two channel Hugo does wonders. planning to buy more blu rays in future. I was really impressed with soundtrack recent action movies of marvel series.


----------



## Beolab

jazz said:


> I've just begun reading their patent, it looks like it's not just a matter of equipping conventional cables with magnet rings or tubes, so trying to copy their cables is a fruitless undertaking. The conductors are said to consist of ferromagnetic material and are connected to the magnets.


 

 Interesting info JaZZ !
  
 Thanks for the link.
  
 I will most likely place an order on a HF RCA / XLR cable or the HF box, what is your recommendation on the most bang @romaz ?


----------



## Jalo

If someone uses a power conditioner let say the MC-6 hemisphere at the wall outlet, wouldn't the whole system connected to it be magnetised? Why will it need any magnetised rca interconnect, digital, or speaker cable?


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> Interesting info JaZZ !
> 
> Thanks for the link.
> 
> I will most likely place an order on a HF RCA / XLR cable or the HF box, what is your recommendation on the most bang @romaz ?


 
 Yes, those two things especially have very high bang even though they are expensive.  If you have to choose only one thing to try so you can get an introduction to this magnetic conduction technology, either would be a good choice but because you have both the DAVE and the Wells Headtrip, in your situation, I would say try the best interconnect (RCA or XLR) that you can afford.  Here in the U.S., we're able to try before we buy through an authorized dealer like thecableco.com so there's no risk except to your wallet.  Interestingly, I was able to find used HF speaker cables from an audio dealer in Poland for a very good price and the whole transaction was very satisfactory.  Do you have an HF dealer in Sweden?  
  
 If you are going for an HF box, make sure it's at least the Hemisphere because that one incorporates technology found in his top cables, more than just magnets.


----------



## romaz

jalo said:


> If someone uses a power conditioner let say the MC-6 hemisphere at the wall outlet, wouldn't the whole system connected to it be magnetised? Why will it need any magnetised rca interconnect, digital, or speaker cable?


 
 Yes, potentially, you could magnetize your whole system with even a single MC-0.5 plugged into the wall but the effect would be considerably smaller.  With the Hemisphere, anything you plug into it will get a healthy dose of this magnetic technology and if I had to gauge its standalone impact, it would be very close to the level of a CT-1 mains cable (this is the HF's entry level cable) applied to each of your components that are directly plugged in even if you connect the Hemisphere to the wall and your components to the Hemisphere with standard mains cables.  The impact is greatest, however, when an HF cable is connected directly to your component and so if you had a CT-1 mains cable connecting your DAVE (or any other electrical component) directly to the Hemisphere, the wow factor is considerably more significant.  If you go further and connect the Hemisphere to the wall with another HF mains cable, the benefit continues to grow but the impact here is slightly less than when you connect that same cable directly to your component.  It sounds like a con job by HF to try and sell as many of their cables as possible but there is definitely an additive impact and in my own experience, with the exception of the DAVE itself, so few things I have tried have made such a huge impact.


----------



## shuttlepod

In recent days, people are reporting some interesting findings on computeraudiophile.com. Specifically, these are people using the microRendu and comparing Roon RAAT mode with Roon/HQPlayer/NAA mode. There are some contradictory findings, so it could be that differences in sonic quality are system dependent. But it seems to me that the majority are finding that the Roon/HQPlayer/NAA mode sounds better than "straight" Roon, despite the apparent fact that both are sending bit perfect signals to the mR. Some people are concluding that this is not surprising because in both Roon/RAAT mode and Roon/HQPlayer/NAA mode, the mR is simply passing the signal through, and the actual playback is controlled by either Roon or HQPlayer. So different playback software sounds different through the mR. That's the theory, anyway. 
  
 I think what is most interesting to DAVE owners and owners of Chord dacs generally is that it may be possible to attain greater SQ by using HQPlayer as a pure playback engine without using its filters or any upsampling. Some users have reported that Roon/HQPlayer/NAA mode sounds clearly superior to Roon/RAAT mode _*without*_ using any of HQP's many special filters and DSD upsampling. One of those people is my friend Ken, who has compared the two modes with his Chord Mojo. See http://www.computeraudiophile.com/showpost.php?p=547561. He just emailed to tell me that he has never heard better DSD than right now through his Mojo using HQPlayer in NAA mode with the microRendu. 
  
 Readers of this thread will know that Rob Watts has been adamant in taking the position that one should not perform any upsampling or filtering with his dacs because he believes that his own software/hardware will do these jobs better than any PC-based program.  (“Oh dear. Do NOT use your computer to up-sample or change the data when you use one of my DAC's.”) But if you are using HQPlayer simply to play recordings at their native sample rates, you are not running afoul of Rob's admonition. 
  
 Interestingly, my friend tells me that when he tried upsampling with HQPlayer to DSD256 on the Mojo (using HQPlayer's default setting), he preferred playback at the native sample rate. This would tend to confirm Rob's point above. But the caveat is that my friend hasn't really played around with different settings in HQP, so that conclusion is still premature.  
  
 In NAA mode on the microRendu, you still get all the benefits of Roon while using HQPlayer as the playback engine. For $145 for HQP, this could be a worthwhile investment.


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> In recent days, people are reporting some interesting findings on computeraudiophile.com. Specifically, these are people using the microRendu and comparing Roon RAAT mode with Roon/HQPlayer/NAA mode. There are some contradictory findings, so it could be that differences in sonic quality are system dependent. But it seems to me that the majority are finding that the Roon/HQPlayer/NAA mode sounds better than "straight" Roon, despite the apparent fact that both are sending bit perfect signals to the mR. Some people are concluding that this is not surprising because in both Roon/RAAT mode and Roon/HQPlayer/NAA mode, the mR is simply passing the signal through, and the actual playback is controlled by either Roon or HQPlayer. So different playback software sounds different through the mR. That's the theory, anyway.
> 
> I think what is most interesting to DAVE owners and owners of Chord dacs generally is that it may be possible to attain greater SQ by using HQPlayer as a pure playback engine without using its filters or any upsampling. Some users have reported that Roon/HQPlayer/NAA mode sounds clearly superior to Roon/RAAT mode _*without*_ using any of HQP's many special filters and DSD upsampling. One of those people is my friend Ken, who has compared the two modes with his Chord Mojo. See http://www.computeraudiophile.com/showpost.php?p=547561. He just emailed to tell me that he has never heard better DSD than right now through his Mojo using HQPlayer in NAA mode with the microRendu.
> 
> ...


 
 It's worth investigating, Jon.  Now, I'm curious as well.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> It's worth investigating, Jon.  Now, I'm curious as well.


 
  
 What is this?  Roon as a viaduct/channel to another software player, in this case HQPlayer, through MR to DAVE?
 Is this right and what exactly is Roon doing here?
  
 Paul


----------



## bigfatpaulie

It has arrived!!!  On on my birthday, too!
  

  
  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  
 No impressions thus far, I literally just fired it up so I'll need some time with it.
  
 -Paul


----------



## lovethatsound

What a great birthday present to yourself,Enjoy


----------



## shuttlepod

paulchiu said:


> What is this?  Roon as a viaduct/channel to another software player, in this case HQPlayer, through MR to DAVE?
> Is this right and what exactly is Roon doing here?
> 
> Paul


 

 Paul, the oversimplified story is that Roon has partnered with HQPlayer in an effort to pair 1) the best user interface/user experience (Roon) with 2) a different sound engine that is highly respected by many, HQPlayer. The combo debuted about 5-6 months ago and I think they are still smoothing out some bugs, but I think it's pretty stable for most users. The microRendu offers different "modes" of playback, one of which takes advantage of this new partnership:  Roon/HQP/NAA. You can read some more about NAA here on HQP's website:  http://www.signalyst.com/consumer.html.
  
 The theory advanced by some HQP fans is that it is able to provide better sound, through a microRendu, than Roon's own RAAT protocol, because the NAA architecture is better at isolating noise carried by the signal. The developer of HQP created the NAA to isolate the signal from all the heavy lifting that normally occurs when one uses HQP's upsampling and filtering options. 
  
 Rob warns against using those functions, but it turns out you can use HQP as a sound engine only and "turn off" all this heavy lifting. When doing this, you are just using HQP to send the signal in its native sample rate to the microRendu. In that situation, some people are reporting that the Roon/HQP/NAA sonics are clearly better than the Roon/RAAT sonics. If so, Chord dac users might be able to enjoy the best of three worlds:  Roon's library management/user interface, HQP's (allegedly) superior sound engine, and Chord's (allegedly) superior implementation of upsampling/filtering.
  
 Please note:  I do not have firsthand experience with the microRendu or its different modes. I'm just reporting what a few others are hearing.


----------



## paulchiu

bigfatpaulie said:


> It has arrived!!!  On on my birthday, too!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Congrats Paul
  
 Based on your pictures, you have one of the cleanest looking package/plastic cover I've seen.  Bluebird must treat Canadians better.  Enjoy your DAVE!
  
 Paul


----------



## paulchiu

shuttlepod said:


> Paul, the oversimplified story is that Roon has partnered with HQPlayer in an effort to pair 1) the best user interface/user experience (Roon) with 2) a different sound engine that is highly respected by many, HQPlayer. The combo debuted about 5-6 months ago and I think they are still smoothing out some bugs, but I think it's pretty stable for most users. The microRendu offers different "modes" of playback, one of which takes advantage of this new partnership:  Roon/HQP/NAA. You can read some more about NAA here on HQP's website:  http://www.signalyst.com/consumer.html.
> 
> The theory advanced by some HQP fans is that it is able to provide better sound, through a microRendu, than Roon's own RAAT protocol, because the NAA architecture is better at isolating noise carried by the signal. The developer of HQP created the NAA to isolate the signal from all the heavy lifting that normally occurs when one uses HQP's upsampling and filtering options.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm waiting for the MR as well.
 So, this NAA is the MR in the Roon/HQP/NAA chain?
  
 Paul


----------



## shuttlepod

paulchiu said:


> I'm waiting for the MR as well.
> So, this NAA is the MR in the Roon/HQP/NAA chain?
> 
> Paul


 

 Yep


----------



## bigfatpaulie

I've only had my DAVE for a few hours but already, holy smokes!!  This thing is an absolute beast!  I'm letting run with my HD600's and already WOW.  This is clearly a massive step up from anything I've previously experienced.


----------



## shuttlepod

Join the club, bigfatpaulie. It kind of turns the concept of burn-in on its head. Or at least the idea that you must pay some penance during that first 24 or 48 or 100 hours.


----------



## rkt31

does Hq player allows asio driver to be used ? I think a simple player like foobar via dave asio driver can be better option as asio bypasses everything.


----------



## iDesign

When it comes to lossless 16/44 files played through Audirvana, is there any real benefit to using Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu with DAVE? I have a _massive_ classical CD library and I am slowly transitioning to digital audio and I want to commit to the right platform/setup before I venture down any one path. The issue with Roon is that it does not support the AFP protocol whereas Audirvana does and I would have to make significant changes to my network to switch over to SMB to get Roon and a DAVE working. Is the sound quality of Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu etc. with DAVE worth the headache or should a say with AFP+Audirvana?


----------



## TheAttorney

@rkt31, HQP does support ASIO drivers - I've used JPlay driver in the past (not with DAVE), but will be trying DAVE's own driver in the next few days. This whole Roon/HQP/ASIO/mR thing is getting a bit complicated, and I can't quite see which bit of each s/w is residing in which bit of h/w between the source file and the DAC, but I'll continue that on the more appropriate thread.
  
 On a completely different topic whillst I'm here, I finally got my energy meter out, with the following results on DAVE's energy usage:
  

DAVE playing music = approx 17W or 27VA
Stopping the music results in approx 0.5W drop
Switching off the display results in approx 1.5W drop
Standy = 6W
  
 So the earlier HFN report of 18W was right after all. The big difference between W and VA readings show that voltage and current are quite a bit out of phase. Which isn't necessariy a bad thing - just observing.
  
 Edit: these are approximate values because it's only a cheapo meter, and with resolution of 1W, which means that I have to extrapolate fractional values based on how the readings flip between the higher and lower values. But it does help decide if the Standby function is worth using or not. I know that Rob W has said DAVE sounds great even from cold, but I like to make up my own mind.


----------



## shuttlepod

idesign said:


> When it comes to lossless 16/44 files played through Audirvana, is there any real benefit to using Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu with DAVE? I have a _massive_ classical CD library and I am slowly transitioning to digital audio and I want to commit to the right platform/setup before I venture down any one path. The issue with Roon is that it does not support the AFP protocol whereas Audirvana does and I would have to make significant changes to my network to switch over to SMB to get Roon and a DAVE working. Is the sound quality of Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu etc. with DAVE worth the headache or should a say with AFP+Audirvana?


 

 I can't help you there, iDesign, as I don't even know what the AFP protocol is. I guess you might try raising the question at computeraudiophile if you haven't already, as there would likely be a bigger community there who could help. It seems, though, that the only person who could really answer your question is someone who has directly compared SQ of Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu to AFP + Audirvana. Not sure how many folks that would include.


----------



## ecwl

I'm waiting for more people (even though I trust Romaz) to discuss whether it's worthwhile to upgrade to a Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu setup as it'll be somewhat costly for me but more importantly potentially a huge hassle with a completely different setup than what I currently have where my Windows 10 CAPSv3 Carbon plays music off my NAS to the DAVE and it sounds pretty darn amazing already.
That said, perhaps iDesign can tell us more about the current setup in terms of which Mac, power connections, etc. as we may be able to provide more pointers. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kennyb123

idesign said:


> When it comes to lossless 16/44 files played through Audirvana, is there any real benefit to using Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu with DAVE? I have a _massive_ classical CD library and I am slowly transitioning to digital audio and I want to commit to the right platform/setup before I venture down any one path. The issue with Roon is that it does not support the AFP protocol whereas Audirvana does and I would have to make significant changes to my network to switch over to SMB to get Roon and a DAVE working. Is the sound quality of Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu etc. with DAVE worth the headache or should a say with AFP+Audirvana?




The microRendu will typically be a significant upgrade over directly driving a DAC with A+ running on Mac. I say typically becaus the reports suggest that the DAVE is less sensitive to the source than other DACs. 

As far as the AFP protocol, usually adding SMB protocol support is as simple as clicking a checkbox. On what kind of device is your music stored?


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> DAVE playing music = approx 17W or 27VA
> Stopping the music results in approx 0.5W drop
> Switching off the display results in approx 1.5W drop
> Standy = 6W


 
 Thanks for posting this.  I am getting similar readings of 18 watts while playing music.


----------



## iDesign

ecwl said:


> I'm waiting for more people (even though I trust Romaz) to discuss whether it's worthwhile to upgrade to a Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu setup as it'll be somewhat costly for me but more importantly potentially a huge hassle with a completely different setup than what I currently have where my Windows 10 CAPSv3 Carbon plays music off my NAS to the DAVE and it sounds pretty darn amazing already.
> That said, perhaps iDesign can tell us more about the current setup in terms of which Mac, power connections, etc. as we may be able to provide more pointers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 
  
 I will also continue to watch this space and follow Romaz's posts which I find to be pretty interesting. I will share my impressions -if- I decide to invest more time into configuring Roon/HQPlayer with my network. At the moment Roon lacks support for AFP and Audio Unit plugins and those two limitations are significant for my needs. I have received great support from Damien Plisson in configuring Audirvana to be the primary interface for my home's Macintosh based network audio system.
  
 Quote:


kennyb123 said:


> The microRendu will typically be a significant upgrade over directly driving a DAC with A+ running on Mac. I say typically becaus the reports suggest that the DAVE is less sensitive to the source than other DACs.
> 
> As far as the AFP protocol, usually adding SMB protocol support is as simple as clicking a checkbox. On what kind of device is your music stored?


 
  
 Interesting, I will setup Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu separately and run it off of my network to see what the gains are. I have approximately 5,000+ lossless CDs stored on three 3TB Apple Time Capsules which use AFP. Im not interested in moving to SMB/2/3 since I use the network with other devices/services.


----------



## ecwl

My point is that if iDesign runs a MacBook via Ethernet on battery to DAVE with the monitor mostly off (if possible), I suspect the sonic difference is not big compared to microRendu. But if there is a big old generation iMac directly connected to DAVE and the iMac and DAVE are plugged into the same power supply/conditioner/strip, iDesign might get more bang for the buck just isolating the iMac from the rest of the audio system by plugging in the iMac to a power socket that's further away from the audio system. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> I think what is most interesting to DAVE owners and owners of Chord dacs generally is that it may be possible to attain greater SQ by using HQPlayer as a pure playback engine without using its filters or any upsampling. Some users have reported that Roon/HQPlayer/NAA mode sounds clearly superior to Roon/RAAT mode _*without*_ using any of HQP's many special filters and DSD upsampling. One of those people is my friend Ken, who has compared the two modes with his Chord Mojo. See http://www.computeraudiophile.com/showpost.php?p=547561. He just emailed to tell me that he has never heard better DSD than right now through his Mojo using HQPlayer in NAA mode with the microRendu.
> 
> Interestingly, my friend tells me that when he tried upsampling with HQPlayer to DSD256 on the Mojo (using HQPlayer's default setting), he preferred playback at the native sample rate. This would tend to confirm Rob's point above. But the caveat is that my friend hasn't really played around with different settings in HQP, so that conclusion is still premature.


 
 Quote:
  


idesign said:


> When it comes to lossless 16/44 files played through Audirvana, is there any real benefit to using Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu with DAVE?


 
  


ecwl said:


> I'm waiting for more people (even though I trust Romaz) to discuss whether it's worthwhile to upgrade to a Roon/HQPlayer/microRendu setup as it'll be somewhat costly for me but more importantly potentially a huge hassle with a completely different setup than what I currently have where my Windows 10 CAPSv3 Carbon plays music off my NAS to the DAVE and it sounds pretty darn amazing already.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 
 I have just spent last night and this morning listening and comparing Roon direct to DAVE vs Roon to HQ Player to DAVE and have been listening to a variety of 16/44 PCM, 24/192 PCM, DXD, DSD128 and DSD256 files that are very familiar to me.  I have also tested Tidal streaming through HQ Player, something I did not realize was possible.  This is my first time to experience HQ Player with my DAVE, Esau, and so this experience is brand new to me.  It's been a long time since I've used Audirvana and so I cannot make any comments on how it might directly compare.
  
 Here is my schematic that another user suggested and that Andrew Gillis has endorsed.  Obviously, in my case, substitute my DAVE for the PS Audio DirectStream.  HQ Player is running on my Windows machine, Roon Server is running on my sonicTransporter and the microRendu is running in Roon/HQ Player/NAA mode:
  

  
 Here are my early listening observations:
  
*PCM files*:
  
 With no upsampling/filtering and no dithering, Roon alone vs Roon/HQP sound identical.  Even in my system that I consider to be very resolving with all of my HF cables, I cannot tell a difference.
  
 With no upsampling/filtering but with TPDF dithering enabled, there is a noticeable difference in favor of Roon/HQP.  Both sound very good but with TPDF dithering, my 16/44 files come to life more.  Transitions are more authoritative and there is better layering.  There appears to be more air around voices and instruments also.  I am hearing no downside with HQP in the chain and the signal being fed to the DAVE remains bit-perfect.  The partnering between Roon/HQP/microRendu is seamless.  Obviously, much testing and configuring have been done by Roon, HQP and Sonore to enable this seamless compatibility.  The delta is not huge but there is no need to blind test as the difference is fairly clear.
  
 With upsampling/filtering turned on, it sounds good but not as good as with it off.  There is a definite loss of depth.  DAVE clearly upsamples better than HQP even when I upsample to 768kHz PCM or DSD7 256+FS.
  
*DSD files:*
  
 With upsampling/filtering off and dithering off, once again, I hear no difference.
  
 With upsampling/filtering off and dithering set to TPDF, once again, Roon/HQP sounds a bit better.
  
 With upsampling/filtering on, once again, it sounds slightly worse. I even transcoded to PCM 768kHz since DAVE is a superior PCM DAC and native DSD sounds better.  Definitely, leave your file in its native format. 
  
 There are other dither modes I will need to test but TPDF seems to be a good way to go.
  
 Based on these early observations, it would appear to me that HQ Player used as a player without any oversampling or filtering but with TPDF dithering is superior to Roon by itself (to my ears) with the DAVE.  I would agree that upsampling should be left to the DAVE and I find no advantage to transcoding from one format to another.  HQ Player without Roon suffers from a clunky and unattractive interface and would be much less enjoyable from a usability standpoint without Roon.  Roon + HQ Player + mR in NAA mode seems to result in a definite improvement.  Unfortunately for me, another expense.
  
 As a side note, if you wish to use HQP with Roon and your mR, you cannot use ASIO or Wasapi as a back end, you will need to use "Network Audio Adapter".  This means you can't utilize Chord's native DSD option but DoP seems to work just fine.


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> My point is that if iDesign runs a MacBook via Ethernet on battery to DAVE with the monitor mostly off (if possible), I suspect the sonic difference is not big compared to microRendu. But if there is a big old generation iMac directly connected to DAVE and the iMac and DAVE are plugged into the same power supply/conditioner/strip, iDesign might get more bang for the buck just isolating the iMac from the rest of the audio system by plugging in the iMac to a power socket that's further away from the audio system.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 
 I am not finding this to be true at all.  My new Macbook running off battery and connected to DAVE via USB is nowhere close to the mR even with the basic iFi power supply.  Not that the Macbook sounds bad but the mR definitely sounds better.  For $690 including the iFi power supply, there's not much risk to try it.


----------



## kennyb123

idesign said:


> I have approximately 5,000+ lossless CDs stored on three 3TB Apple Time Capsules which use AFP. Im not interested in moving to SMB/2/3 since I use the network with other devices/services.


 
  
 I'm almost certain that I've connected to my Time Capsule from Windows.  I will confirm when I get home.


----------



## shuttlepod

Quote:


romaz said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> I have just spent last night and this morning listening and comparing Roon direct to DAVE vs Roon to HQ Player to DAVE and have been listening to a variety of 16/44 PCM, 24/192 PCM, DXD, DSD128 and DSD256 files that are very familiar to me.


 
  
 Leave it to Roy to test out our theories with the DAVE and report in his usual outstandingly detailed fashion. Thank you! (And I'm sorry if I helped send you on the road to additional expense!) 
  
 I find it interesting that my friend Ken found a significant difference using Roon/HQP/NAA on all files, without dithering, versus using Roon/RAAT. My assumption is that this difference can be chalked up to the difference between Mojo and DAVE, with DAVE being less susceptible to upstream changes in software. It sounds like this difference, being clearly positive and audible according to Roy, is probably well worth the cost of purchasing HQP (assuming you have the setup to take advantage of it). 
  
 Roy, do you have any theories as to why HQP sounds better with dithering set to TPDF?
  
 Another observation is that Rob's upsampling and filtering in the DAVE must be truly world class, as there is no shortage of people who think that HQP is superior to any DAC's implementation of upsampling and filtering (maybe they haven't heard DAVE, or DAVE running HQP upsampling vs. DAVE running HQP native). 
  
 Finally, I have to say it is just a little disappointing that, as fantastic as DAVE is, it is not the superman DAC that I once imagined -- in other words, it is still susceptible to upstream hardware and software and noise issues, and we still need to pay attention to all of this stuff and make judgments about what improvements are cost effective. On the other hand, having heard what DAVE can sound like being fed directly by a noisy Mac computer and a cheap ten year old USB cord, I can only imagine what it will sound like when optimized with all of these things we've been discussing. Pretty exciting times for digital audio.


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> Leave it to Roy to test out our theories with the DAVE and report in his usual outstandingly detailed fashion. Thank you! (And I'm sorry if I helped send you on the road to additional expense!)
> 
> I find it interesting that my friend Ken found a significant difference using Roon/HQP/NAA on all files, without dithering, versus using Roon/RAAT. My assumption is that this difference can be chalked up to the difference between Mojo and DAVE, with DAVE being less susceptible to upstream changes in software. It sounds like this difference, being clearly positive and audible according to Roy, is probably well worth the cost of purchasing HQP (assuming you have the setup to take advantage of it).
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, Jon.
  
 I'm still trying to understand what the different dithering options represent but they amount to noise shaping from what I can tell.  I went with it because according to the Signalyst manual, this is the best all around choice for all files, especially 16/44..
  
 Yes, I've convinced myself Rob's methods of upsampling is superior but I can see why people like HQP.
  
 As for the DAVE's susceptibility to what's upstream, with respect to jitter, which is a huge deal for any other DAC, I continue to believe it is absolutely insensitive.  With respect to RF noise, even Rob himself has indicated he can hear a difference with his Windows laptop on battery vs plugged into the wall and so this sensitivity is more relative than absolute.  As to the difference between different software players, the difference between HQP and Roon by itself seems to be this dithering.  Whether this is an artificial coloration or something else, I have to say I prefer it.
  
 I do believe that if you connected your DAVE to a cheap laptop with a cheap USB cable and standard mains cable, you are still in rarefied air as far as SQ.  In this way, the DAVE is not fussy and remains a very unique and special piece.  Like all things, even the DAVE can be optimized and I believe that is what we're all trying to accomplish here.


----------



## romaz

bigfatpaulie said:


> I've only had my DAVE for a few hours but already, holy smokes!!  This thing is an absolute beast!  I'm letting run with my HD600's and already WOW.  This is clearly a massive step up from anything I've previously experienced.


 
 I'd love to hear what you think with the DAVE and your DNA Stratus, Paul.


----------



## ecwl

romaz said:


> ecwl said:
> 
> 
> > My point is that if iDesign runs a MacBook via Ethernet on battery to DAVE with the monitor mostly off (if possible), I suspect the sonic difference is not big compared to microRendu. But if there is a big old generation iMac directly connected to DAVE and the iMac and DAVE are plugged into the same power supply/conditioner/strip, iDesign might get more bang for the buck just isolating the iMac from the rest of the audio system by plugging in the iMac to a power socket that's further away from the audio system.
> ...




Hmmm. Interesting. I wonder if the issue is the lack of dedicated USB hardware and power supply management or if microRendu is so far ahead of other designs. Still in addition to the $690, there's the HQPlayer cost because I need a program that can do parametric EQ before sending the signal to microRendu, and I have no intention of using Roon so I would have to figure out how to make Tidal and JRiver work with HQPlayer on a desktop that I would now have to leave on all the time and then figure out how to remote control the desktop so that it can send the correct signals from HQPlayer to microRendu. If that doesn't work, I would have to purchase Roon and port my JRiver library to Roon. Sounds like too much work as I still have thousands of hours of music I just want to listen to instead of fiddling around with my computer audio setup for now. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jawed

romaz said:


> With no upsampling/filtering but with TPDF dithering enabled, there is a noticeable difference in favor of Roon/HQP.  Both sound very good but with TPDF dithering, my 16/44 files come to life more.  Transitions are more authoritative and there is better layering.  There appears to be more air around voices and instruments also.  I am hearing no downside with HQP in the chain and the signal being fed to the DAVE remains bit-perfect.



Can someone explain why applying dither is able to leave the music "bit perfect"?


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> Still in addition to the $690, there's the HQPlayer cost...




Between the mR and HQ Player, IMO, with the DAVE, the mR is easily the more important of the two. At $150, HQ Player is worthy of its asking price but if I had to buy a separate PC just to run it, personally, I would just stay with the mR.



ecwl said:


> I have no intention of using Roon so I would have to figure out how to make Tidal and JRiver work with HQPlayer...




If you decide you want an mR, you can use JRiver without having to use Roon but as far as I'm aware, you have to use Roon to stream Tidal.



ecwl said:


> ...I would now have to leave (a computer) on all the time and then figure out how to remote control the desktop so that it can send the correct signals from HQPlayer to microRendu...Sounds like too much work as I still have thousands of hours of music I just want to listen to instead of fiddling around with my computer audio setup for now.




Using JRiver, you would still need to have some computer running somewhere. As for remote control, because of the integration between Roon and HQP, you just need a remote for Roon (iPad or Android) and Roon will seamlessly control HQP.


----------



## romaz

jawed said:


> Can someone explain why applying dither is able to leave the music "bit perfect"?




I have wondered this as well. The best that I can surmise is that dithering, as a noiseshaper, isn't truncatung or changing any bits. I don't know.


----------



## brightonjel

This question is a big one and I'm not sure I can remember enough to do it justice, but here goes anyway!
  
 Quantization errors occur in a digital system when reducing the number of bits being used to represent something; this is of course particularly true in going from an analog signal (continuous) to a digital one (represented by a number with an accuracy expressed by some finite number of bits used to store it, let's say 16).  In practice, these rounding errors are a) likely correlated with the signal being processed, which is bad, and b) of a power that's more noticeable the smaller the signal being considered is, which is also bad.
  
 Adding dither - i.e. a computer-generated number, at a level of + or - 1/2 LSB, say, randomizes those errors, improving the perceived quality of the resulting signal.  In addition, the mathematical function for generating the dither signal can itself be tuned in order to shape the noise profile of the combined signal such that, to the human ear at least, what noise there now is should be less noticeable. Is the resulting stream "bit perfect" at source?  No, but from the analogue perspective then no digital representation can be completely perfect over time because quantization always introduces errors, albeit vanishingly small as the bit depth used increases (adding one more bit of resolution reduces noise power by -6db, i.e. 1/4x).  In addition, even the best quality D/A converters only manage about 20 bits of resolution in any case.
  
 The term "bit perfect" can be applied to subsets of the processing chain, e.g. going from Roon via Ethernet to uRendu to a DAC. This can either be a bit perfect chain, where the same bits in always produce the same bits out, or, if you resample, change the volume, or otherwise process things along the way, then not.  For example, applying a digital volume correction, perhaps for volume leveling, somewhere along the way will change the bits even if it isn't itself a dithered operation, so now it won't be!
  
 Hope I haven't just confused things further ... it really is a fascinating - but complex - topic.


----------



## Rob Watts

romaz said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> I have just spent last night and this morning listening and comparing Roon direct to DAVE vs Roon to HQ Player to DAVE and have been listening to a variety of 16/44 PCM, 24/192 PCM, DXD, DSD128 and DSD256 files that are very familiar to me.  I have also tested Tidal streaming through HQ Player, something I did not realize was possible.  This is my first time to experience HQ Player with my DAVE, Esau, and so this experience is brand new to me.  It's been a long time since I've used Audirvana and so I cannot make any comments on how it might directly compare.
> ...


 
  
_"With no upsampling/filtering but with TPDF dithering enabled, there is a noticeable difference in favor of Roon/HQP.  Both sound very good but with TPDF dithering, my 16/44 files come to life more.  Transitions are more authoritative and there is better layering.  There appears to be more air around voices and instruments also.  I am hearing no downside with HQP in the chain and the signal being fed to the DAVE remains bit-perfect."_
  
 I am somewhat surprised by this, as this sound quality is exactly what I used to hear with dither being added to data and doing nothing else. I used to do this with the PDM1024 way back in 1992 (probably the first time newly invented FPGA's were being employed in audio). The reason dither works in this application is that it randomises the data, and in the case of the PDM1024 I used multiple DSD256 noise shapers, each fed with its own different random noise. So each DSD sequence was randomised, and you got better small signal accuracy by summing in the analogue domain these different sequences. Technically, it improves small signal accuracy, so it sounds smoother, with better depth and layering. 
  
 But with the invention of pulse array, and with 5 bit noise shaping at 2048 FS, I completely solved the problem of small signal accuracy (at least as far as measurements were concerned) and employing extra dither no longer made an improvement in sound quality. So I dropped the procedure, as it did not make a difference to the SQ.
  
 On Chord's Blu CD transport, I still keep dither as an option - but this is merely intended for poorer DAC's that have small signal linearity problems.
  
 Of course with Dave, I have even better small signal performance, so it makes it less likely that adding dither will improve this aspect. But perhaps other things are going on, that is not small signal related. I can add dither to Dave and see if it improves SQ at all. If it does improve SQ significantly we will do a code update for Dave.
  
 Note that adding dither means the data is changed and is now no longer bit perfect. Not that I have any problems with doing that so long as its a change with only SQ benefits.
  
  
_*"DSD files:*_
  
_With upsampling/filtering off and dithering off, once again, I hear no difference._
  
_With upsampling/filtering off and dithering set to TPDF, once again, Roon/HQP sounds a bit better."_
  
 This is perplexing, as you can't add dither to a DSD file. You would need to convert it to PCM, then add dither, then re-noise shape it to get back to DSD. That process would sound poor, as a DSD noise shaping function is certainly not transparent. I suspect that something else is going on, as dithering set to TPDF does not mean dithering is actually working all the time - it may be only on truncation process. Since no actual processing is going on, no truncation, and so perhaps no dither would then be added. It's certainly impossible to add dither to DSD directly without re-noise shaping.
  
 Rob


----------



## x RELIC x

rob watts said:


> ...
> 
> Of course with Dave, I have even better small signal performance, so it makes it less likely that adding dither will improve this aspect. But perhaps other things are going on, that is not small signal related. I can add dither to Dave and see if it improves SQ at all. *If it does improve SQ significantly we will do a code update for Dave.*
> 
> ...




Presuming if the DAVE is sent back to Chord, right?

Rob, did you get a chance to compare a 'fresh' DAVE for burn-in comparison to the one you've been using as you mentioned earlier?


----------



## Rob Watts

Code updates (if needed) will need a return to a trained distributor or Chord. I won't do it for a minor change.
  
 The new Dave turned up on Friday, but I am away on holiday for the school half term this week. Should be able to listen to it next week.
  
 Rob


----------



## x RELIC x

rob watts said:


> Code updates (if needed) will need a return to a trained distributor or Chord. I won't do it for a minor change.
> 
> The new Dave turned up on Friday, but I am away on holiday for the school half term this week. Should be able to listen to it next week.
> 
> Rob



Excellent, enjoy your holiday.


----------



## ecwl

I use parametric EQ in JRiver and JRiver is set to TPDF dithering so JRiver always dithers with TPDF. But I believe if you're playing a 16/44 file without DSP and you set your JRiver audio driver output bit depth to 24-bit or 32-bit, JRiver will automatically apply the dither you chose as the dithering method at 24/32-bit. In fact, now I wonder if I should change my output bit depth from 24-bit to 32-bit to see if it works and if there's a sonic difference.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

romaz said:


> I'd love to hear what you think with the DAVE and your DNA Stratus, Paul.


 
  
 You and me both!  I'm going to let the DAVE settle in and get to know that on its own first.  I suspect they will pair very nicely.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

rob watts said:


> Code updates (if needed) will need a return to a trained distributor or Chord. I won't do it for a minor change.
> 
> *The new Dave* turned up on Friday, but I am away on holiday for the school half term this week. Should be able to listen to it next week.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 The new DAVE?
  
 I'm sorry - what?


----------



## lovethatsound

bigfatpaulie said:


> The new DAVE?
> 
> I'm sorry - what?


it's just a brand new Dave from chord,it's the same Dave has everyone has go;Rob just wanted a new one.


----------



## ecwl

lovethatsound said:


> bigfatpaulie said:
> 
> 
> > The new DAVE?
> ...




It's not a new model. It's a new set of DAVEs off the manufacturing line. Rob Watts was going to compare this newly manufactured DAVE with his older one to see how long burn-in takes. The innards and codes are completely identical. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bigfatpaulie

That's good to know - thank you.
  
 It's official, I hate DSD.  The DAVE is the second DAC I've had a nearly impossible time getting to work consistently.  I'm I alone in my issues with it?  For the record I'm using Foobar2000.


----------



## JaZZ

bigfatpaulie said:


> That's good to know - thank you.
> 
> It's official, I hate DSD.  The DAVE is the second DAC I've had a nearly impossible time getting to work consistently.  I'm I alone in my issues with it?  For the record I'm using Foobar2000.


 
  
 Hi Paul
  
 I have the same issue with the Hugo, but not with DAVE... or so I thought! But it turns out that also with DAVE I don't reliably get native DSD from .dff files, whereas .dsf files are o.k. Sometimes _foobar_ takes the selected DFF decoder frequency for playing back PCM.
  
 You may want to have a look at the recent posts in the Hugo thread addressing DSD problems with_ foobar_ and Chord drivers.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

jazz said:


> Hi Paul
> 
> I have the same issue with the Hugo, but not with DAVE... or so I thought! But it turns out that also with DAVE I don't reliably get native DSD from .dff files, whereas .dsf files are o.k. Sometimes _foobar_ takes the selected DFF decoder frequency for playing back PCM.
> 
> You may want to have a look at the recent posts in the Hugo thread addressing DSD problems with_ foobar_ and Chord drivers.


 
  
  
 Thanks.  I went through that (and 3 other similar 'how toos') to no avail.  I, like you, can't double click on the ASIO drivers.  Also, if I select foo_dsd_asio I get "Unrecoverable playback error: The process receiving or sending data has terminated" when trying to play anything.  I did download a file from that thread and now it seems I can play DSF files if I select "ASIO: ASIO Chord 1.05", not the suggested foobar device. 
  
 Oddly enough, my DAVE says 352.8kHz with a DSD64 file on a dark blue background - should it not be pinky/purple?


----------



## JaZZ

bigfatpaulie said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Paul
> ...


 
  
 That means it has been converted to PCM with a sampling rate of 352.8 kHz according to your SACD settings. You have to select «DSD» as ASIO driver mode there.
  
 In your profile I see you don't have any other Chord DAC, so the possibility that there's another device selected in the now foo_dsd_asio settings (ASIO proxy 0.8.3) doesn't exist. Are you sure you have your DAVE attached to your computer while trying to acces the foo_dsd_asio component per double-cklick? That's essential in my case: The selected DAC has to be connected. What if you remove the file and reinstall it (may also be per drag & drop)?


----------



## bigfatpaulie

jazz said:


> That means it has been converted to PCM with a sampling rate of 352.8 kHz according to your SACD settings. You have to select «DSD» as ASIO driver mode there.
> 
> In your profile I see you don't have any other Chord DAC, so the possibility that there's another device selected in the now foo_dsd_asio settings (ASIO proxy 0.8.3) doesn't exist. Are you sure you have your DAVE attached to your computer while trying to acces the foo_dsd_asio component per double-cklick? That's essential in my case: The selected DAC has to be connected.* What if you remove the file and reinstall it *(may also be per drag & drop)?


 
  
  
 Thanks for your help.  Yes, the DAVE is, for sure, 100%, connected to my computer.  No, I currently do not have any other DAC connected.
  
 If I switch to DSD in the SACD menu I can still play normal FLAC etc and I can 'play' DSD files in the that the slider moves left to right and the timer counts as if it is playing but I get no sound the DAVE shows red and 44.1.
  
 As well, switching to DSD in the SACD menu greys out all the options. 
  
 Which file are you referring to as far as un/reinstalling?


----------



## JaZZ

bigfatpaulie said:


> Which file are you referring to as far as un/reinstalling?


 
  
 foo_dsd_asio
  
 The solution is quite simple: You just have to get access to the «ASIO proxy 0.8.3»...
  

  
 ...by double-clicking foo_dsd_asio to select the *Chord DAVE* driver there.
  
 Since according to my experience the selected device has to be connected to get access to the ASIO Proxy, I thought maybe it would allow access without any entry, freshly installed. After all I must have managed to get access to it somehow in the beginning, although I remember that it wasn't a smooth process.


----------



## AndrewOld

ecwl said:


> I use parametric EQ in JRiver and JRiver is set to TPDF dithering so JRiver always dithers with TPDF. But I believe if you're playing a 16/44 file without DSP and you set your JRiver audio driver output bit depth to 24-bit or 32-bit, JRiver will automatically apply the dither you chose as the dithering method at 24/32-bit. In fact, now I wonder if I should change my output bit depth from 24-bit to 32-bit to see if it works and if there's a sonic difference.




What makes you think that JRiver will dither if you don't use DSP or the JRiver volume control?

I reckon your output bit depth should be 32 because the Chord ASIO driver takes 32 bits,

By all means check this out on the JRiver forum.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

jazz said:


> foo_dsd_asio
> 
> The solution is quite simple: You just have to get access to the «ASIO proxy 0.8.3»...
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 I appreciate your help, but no dice...  
  
 In components -> playback -> output - ASIO it has a list of three ASIO drivers:
  
 ASIO Chord 1.05
 foo_dsd_asio
 TUSBAudio ASIO Driver
  
 (the last one was for my last 2 DAC's).  If I double click on any of them that window does not pop up.  I might as well be clicking on nothing, despite it saying "Doulbe-click an entry to activate the driver's control panel".


----------



## JaZZ

Sorry to hear that. I don't know if that helps, but someone who seems to be the author of the foo_asio_dsd component recommends deleting a registry entry for resetting the ASIO Proxy:
  


> Run regedit and remove HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\ASIO\foo_dsd_asio key.


 
  
 At least for a user in that forum it has brought access to the ASIO Proxy back.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

jazz said:


> Sorry to hear that. I don't know if that helps, but someone who seems to be the author of the foo_asio_dsd component recommends deleting a registry entry for resetting the ASIO Proxy:
> 
> 
> At least for a user in that forum it has brought access to the ASIO Proxy back.


 
  
 BINGO!  White background, DSD64.
  
 You are an absolute legend!  
  
 Thank you, Sir!!


----------



## JaZZ

Well made! Glad to hear.


----------



## ecwl

andrewold said:


> What makes you think that JRiver will dither if you don't use DSP or the JRiver volume control?
> 
> I reckon your output bit depth should be 32 because the Chord ASIO driver takes 32 bits,
> 
> By all means check this out on the JRiver forum.




http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=100095.0

Because Hendrik the administrator says so on his reply to #44.


----------



## MacedonianHero

bigfatpaulie said:


> That's good to know - thank you.
> 
> It's official, I hate DSD.  The DAVE is the second DAC I've had a nearly impossible time getting to work consistently.  I'm I alone in my issues with it?  For the record I'm using Foobar2000.


 
 Weird? I'm using the Hugo TT and have zero issues with Tidal, Amarra, or Audirvana with DSD through my iMac.


----------



## Torq

macedonianhero said:


> Weird? I'm using the Hugo TT and have zero issues with Tidal, Amarra, or Audirvana with DSD through my iMac.


 

 Can I ask what version of OS X are you using?
  
 And what level of DSD are you playing?
  
 I cannot, on any of my hardware (all more than powerful enough) get the Chord stuff to play above DSD64 (single rate) without drop-outs.


----------



## rkt31

j river pads the bit output to the maximum supported by the device which is 32bit, even if the flac is only 16bit or 24bit. I don't know if j river adds dither too or plain padding but I have felt that this process of padding changes the sound. the sound is slightly more open and dynamic but with slight extra energy while bit perfect foobar streaming with out any padding or changes sound a bit smoother. I think in j river maximum bits can be manually fixed. foobar is more direct imho and it does not interfere with the bits. dsd is typicality difficult to dream with foobar but once set it is better than j river. with foobar dac need to be connected for dsd playback. may be while installing the chord dac driver it's better to connect the dac. I used sacd decoder plugin for foobar from CNET. it has an executable file which installs the sacd plugin. also a foobar asio component to be installed. after that foobar-dsd-asio to be selected as output and after double clicking select the chord asio driver within that and set the streaming method as native or dop.


----------



## AndrewOld

ecwl said:


> http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=100095.0
> 
> Because Hendrik the administrator says so on his reply to #44.


 
   
 Ah, OK I see where you're coming from! But ... the same Hendrik says on Post 8 here: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=89112.0
  
 Quote:


> Its important to note that proper dithering doesn't modify the audio signal if it doesn't need to. If you play a 24-bit file with 24-bit output at 100% volume and without any processing, then the dithering does not modify the audio at all, and you achieve bit-perfect playback.


 
  
  
 hence my original question. But your link applies to the more recently introduced  TPDF dithering which it does seem will potentially modify the original signal even if there was no processing. As you point out, Hendrik says:
  


> If you want to be able to output absolutely bitexact at 100% volume, you should use the old "JRiver Bit-exact Dithering" option, which is tuned in such a way that even if its applied, it will not change a signal if its output without *any* changes (same input/output bitdepth, no volume changes or any other DSPs) - hence the Bit-exact in the name.
> TPDF is a stronger dithering, and does not have this characteristic.


 
  
 I don't really understand why you would want to add dither to an unmodified signal.
  
 Lets say you start with a 24 bit file. JRiver converts this internally to 64 bits and then performs and DSP and volume control using 64 bit arithmetic. But if you don't do any processing those top 48 bits will stay all zeroes. With JRiver TPDF dithering you  have the option of dithering down to 24 bits or to 32. If you dither down to 24 aiui you will be changing the least significant 2 bits of the original 24 bit signal. Why would you want to do that? To add noise? There hasn't been any processing so there's nothing to mask.


----------



## Sunya

Exactly, why would anyone want to add dither to an unchanged file? No more bit perfect playback? The purpose of dither (noise) is to randomize the quantization errors resulted from the truncation of a 24 bit file to 16 bit one. A 16 bit file already has dither in it. 
  
 A good dither material:
  
 http://downloads.izotope.com/guides/izotope-dithering-with-ozone.pdf


----------



## goobicii

hey,do anybody remember what is that magazine called where Dave was reviewed & measured? i saw it about two months ago but since then I forgot how was it called so I cant find it


----------



## Sunya

Hi-Fi News


----------



## bigfatpaulie

macedonianhero said:


> Weird? I'm using the Hugo TT and have zero issues with Tidal, Amarra, or Audirvana with DSD through my iMac.


 
  
 Now, thanks to JaZZ, it is working perfectly.  I don't have any DSD256 but DSD128/64 works perfectly.  I think it may been symptomatic of Foobar being free it is less polished.
  
  
 (Or it could be me.  It's probably just me...)


----------



## Rob Watts

No it's not you, I had a nightmare with it, it took forever to set up. Lots of wasted hours, only to discover that DSD512 still sounds poorer than redbook on Dave.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

sunya said:


> Exactly, why would anyone want to add dither to an unchanged file? No more bit perfect playback? The purpose of dither (noise) is to randomize the quantization errors resulted from the truncation of a 24 bit file to 16 bit one. A 16 bit file already has dither in it.
> 
> A good dither material:
> 
> http://downloads.izotope.com/guides/izotope-dithering-with-ozone.pdf


 
 There are a number of reasons why adding dither can be beneficial for a DAC. In practice we are talking about converting 16 bit data to 32 bit data by adding rectangular PDF noise onto the blank (all zeroes) data - its not really dither as such, because we are not talking about treating truncation errors as there is nothing to truncate as its all zero. And the top 16 bits would still be bit-perfect, as one would only randomise the zeroes.
  
 The first reason is small signal non-linearity. By randomising small signals, you improve the performance of the DAC - but this tends to work best when you have a number of DAC's in parallel and feeding each DAC with random noise. By averaging the output, it means you can use much more noise. This used to work well in the past, but stopped making any difference when I invented pulse array, as this DAC technology has no small signal non-linearity. By using noise (I won't call it dither) like this made the SQ smoother and with better depth - all hallmarks of better small signal performance.
  
 The second issue is DSP core PSU noise being signal correlated, which then gets picked up by the analogue electronics, and this mechanism also degrades small signal non-linearity, so upsetting depth reproduction. This issue used to be a major thorn in my side, as the DSP cores I had to manually create from FPGA fabric, and they consumed a lot of power, so there would be lots of noise entering the ground plane. This issue has slowly been eliminated, and since Hugo I have had zero measurable problems from it; this is due to a number of reasons:
  
 1. Dedicated DSP cores on the FPGA, which are extremely power efficient.
 2. Dual ground planes making ground bounce no longer an issue.
 3. Use of switch mode PSU, with the current return path located under the FPGA, thus meaning no signal correlated currents leaking away from the FPGA section.
 4. Nearly a quarter of a second of music data being processed through the WTA, so current draw is less signal correlated.
  
 Now randomising the bottom 16 bits will randomise the DSP currents, and this can reduce this problem as the WTA is busy processing random data, so the signal correlated part gets smaller.
  
 Now in the past I could not hear any benefits in randomising the permanently zero bits, and so dropped the feature. But we are in uncharted territory with Dave, as it offers depth reproduction to a level that I have never experienced before - for the past 20 years I thought 200 dB pulse array noise shapers were good enough for depth - but now with Dave at 350 dB I need to re-examine this issue, as it may now offer some benefit.
  
 Rob


----------



## Jawed

goobicii said:


> hey,do anybody remember what is that magazine called where Dave was reviewed & measured? i saw it about two months ago but since then I forgot how was it called so I cant find it



PDF of review:

http://hifilounge.co.uk/image/attachments/Chord/HFN-Chord-DAVE.pdf


----------



## bigfatpaulie

rob watts said:


> No it's not you, I had a nightmare with it, it took forever to set up. Lots of wasted hours, only to discover that DSD512 still sounds poorer than redbook on Dave.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 HAHA!  I hear that!!
  
 DSD is neat I suppose.  It seems to good for very complex passages and preserving some mircodetail (I guess...) but I certainly don't look down or feel at all shorted by RedBook after spending some time listening to DSD128 files.  I find it to be simply just not as enjoyable to listen too (at least for now).


----------



## TheAttorney

Last year I played about with HQ Player's myriad DSP options - this from a Windows laptop to the iFi iDSD.
  
 With that combination, HQP's Dither and Filter and PCM upsampling and PCM->DSD conversion options really made a positive impact to redbook FLAC files. And even with all DSP options switched off, HQP still sounded better than JRiver (shame about the clunky interface though).
  
 Now with DAVE in the picture, I took a break from my Nagra CDC as source and hooked up my i7 Windows 10 SSD laptop, running on battery,  via USB cable direct to DAVE and tried a few options, with the following observations:
  
 HQP still sounds better than JRiver (both with all DSP options off and both with DAVE's driver), but the difference didn't seem as obvious as I remembered with the iDSD. From then on all listening was with HQP.     
  
 Following romaz's comments, I didn't bother with any up-sampling or up-conversion options for DAVE. Just added the TPDF Dither and additionally tried Miska's best Filter options poly-sync and poly-sync-mp (which had significantly improved the iDSD setup). The Dither did seem to give a slight SQ uplift, and the Filters gave an interesting alternative - I couldn't decide if it was better or worse. @romaz did you try these particular filter options? They do load the processor more, but the load was insignificant on my i7.
  
 I wouldn't consider any of this to be conclusive and I haven't ruled out imagination at this point. More food for further investigation, but what I did notice was that this was the first time I had heard a computer sounding better than my Nagra CD Player (TBH, I haven't tried very hard so far with computers in my main rig). And based on recent comments on the microRendu, it sounds like there's room for further improvement.


----------



## goobicii

does DAVE support 705600 hz  samplerate?


----------



## ecwl

I can only comment on JRiver TPDF dithering. My Windows PC is set to use the Kernel Streaming driver with output to 32-bit. So in JRiver, TPDF dithering would be applied at 32-bit, even if my source is 16-bit/44kHz and then output will be 32-bit/44kHz.
  
 What I don't know with HQPlayer is that if a file is 16-bit/44kHz and you turn on TPDF dithering, does it apply the TPDF at 16-bit or does it apply at the output bitrate, e.g. 24-bit or 32-bit. I am guessing that if it applies it at 24-bit or 32-bit, then as Rob Watts said, it may help with small signal non-linearity? But if HQPlayer is applying TPDF at 16-bit, then what may be happening is that some recordings may not be properly dithered or have an inferior dithering algorithms so by applying TPDF dithering over them, you're improving the dithering of the original recording? Not sure...


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes - I know it works as you can cascade two Dave's together with the DX OP feeding the dual BNC input on another Dave.
  
 Rob


----------



## Sonic77

Downloaded HQ Player, and it is so awesome! Thank you to Miska !!


----------



## TheAttorney

Hi Sonic77, are you including the mR between computer and DAVE?


----------



## Kakki

Dear Dave owners, do you have any recommendation or opinion on which color (silver or black) one should choose?
 I would appreciate to hear what made you choose the color and what do you feel about your choice after spending your time with Dave...
 It is such a difficult decision to make!


----------



## bigfatpaulie

The black one sounds better with Redbook files but the silver one offers DSD1024 so...  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I went with black simply because I couldn't see the unit before I bought it and I was concerned that it may look cheap in silver.  Having now seen the unit, and the build quality (which is fantastic) it would just come down to which I thought was nicer with the rest of my system.  If I was doing it again, I would get a silver one (because it is so nicely made).


----------



## JaZZ

bigfatpaulie said:


> *The black one sounds better with Redbook files* but the silver one offers DSD1024 so...


 
  
 ...I'm glad I decided for black. Although I must say that the silver DAVE looks good as well. But then again, I don't listen to DSD, just for testing purposes.


----------



## paulchiu

jazz said:


> ...I'm glad I decided for black. Although I must say that the silver DAVE looks good as well. But then again, I don't listen to DSD, just for testing purposes.


 
  
 After a month with my black DAVE, it does sound much better than my silver Hugo.  imo.
  
 Paul


----------



## JaZZ

paulchiu said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > ...I'm glad I decided for black. Although I must say that the silver DAVE looks good as well. But then again, I don't listen to DSD, just for testing purposes.
> ...


 
  
 Isn't that apples and oranges? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 However, I'm glad you like it. Say that it sounds better than the Nagra HD DAC!


----------



## paulchiu

jazz said:


> Isn't that apples and oranges?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 just some levity from moi
 a response to silver DAVE and DSD comment made earlier.  
  
 regarding Nagra HD DAC, no.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The Swiss piece still shines.


----------



## JaZZ

Yeah, the Swiss...


----------



## paulchiu

jazz said:


> Yeah, the Swiss...


 
  
 You guys rule!
 Some of the best audio brands are Swiss.
 Nagra for sure, also Thorens, Piega, Weiss, Goldmund and recently CH Precision.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

paulchiu said:


> You guys rule!
> Some of the best audio brands are Swiss.
> Nagra for sure, also Thorens, Piega, Weiss, Goldmund and recently CH Precision.


 
  
 Yeah, the Swiss...


----------



## Sonic77

theattorney said:


> Hi Sonic77, are you including the mR between computer and DAVE?




Hi TheAttoney,
I upgraded the software (Torreys)  in my PS Audio Direct stream Dac, and wanted to try it out with the HQ Player and the mR, sounds pretty good!
The HQ player with the Dave is out of this world, (listened for 2 hours straight and had to pull myself away from my computer) right now that will be my preferred way of listening to HQ player. I have not listen to the Dave with mR with HQ player yet, so I will have to do that later, still checking out the PS Audio Direct Stream Dac.


----------



## Kakki

bigfatpaulie said:


> The black one sounds better with Redbook files but the silver one offers DSD1024 so...


 
  
 I didn't know that the body color is being another color indicator LOL.
  
 Black looks really cool and Silver will fit to my other hifi and furnitures. What a difficult decision to make...


----------



## paulchiu

kakki said:


> I didn't know that the body color is being another color indicator LOL.
> 
> Black looks really cool and Silver will fit to my other hifi and furnitures. What a difficult decision to make...


 
  
 get both!
 or silver with black stand & vice-versa.
  
 paul


----------



## bigfatpaulie

paulchiu said:


> get both!
> or silver with black stand & vice-versa.
> 
> paul


 
  
 YES!
  
 Then you can also be the only person to hear something with a 705,600hz sample rate!  (are recordings like that even around?!!?)


----------



## paulchiu

bigfatpaulie said:


> YES!
> 
> Then you can also be the only person to hear something with a 705,600hz sample rate!  (are recordings like that even around?!!?)


 
  
 Still cannot find any.
 352k, then the DSDs
  
 no 706k here:
 http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html
  
 paul


----------



## Currawong

Loaner. Only took one minute of listening with HD800s before I started looking around and adding up how much of my gear I could sell to buy one. I think I'd have to sell my car.
  
 Of course, now I have to find a way to describe the experience. I might have paraphrase a Clarkson Top Gear quote when was driving a Lotus track car that was too much for him: I've heard DACs with this much detail before, and I've heard DACs that sounded this natural before, and I've experienced gear with dynamics like this before, but not all of them, all at once. It feels like a kind of sensory overload.


----------



## listen4joy

this is series piece of gear, but at this price point i rather to leave it up to people with big pockets and compromised with more common human price dac like schiit yggdrasil, however at this price bracket i wonder if its par with dac like EMM Labs DAC2X  to justify its huge price point.


----------



## Silvertone4

Could some of you using Dave in full stereo rigs (non headphone systems) comment on the treble? Is the sound forward or laid back? Thanks in advance


----------



## Rob Watts

silvertone4 said:


> Could some of you using Dave in full stereo rigs (non headphone systems) comment on the treble? Is the sound forward or laid back? Thanks in advance


 
 Its actually both at the same time....
  
 About three quarters of the way through Dave's development, when I had solved all the THD and noise floor modulation issues, and had the depth performance with the 350 dB noise shapers, Dave was sounding very soft, warm and dark. 
  
 Too dark and too soft.
  
 But nobody has heard the perfect DAC (that is one that adds nothing to the sound) so I was prepared to run with it - I certainly was not going to add some noise floor modulation to spice it up a bit. But then I found what was the technical reason for why Hugo had the ability to hear the starting and stopping of notes clearly - and I then improved that ability by designing a WTA filter that ran at 256 FS (that's an FIR WTA output every 88nS). Now this improved the ability to perceive the starting and stopping of notes - and when you can perceive transients properly things sound much faster and sharper and brighter as a consequence.
  
 This actually restored the balance (I am uncomfortable with that term as still nobody knows what the perfect DAC would sound like for sure as perceived balance or neutrality is merely an average of all DAC's) and now it was sounding fast and sharp (when the recording demands) and soft and smooth (ditto).
  
 If you are ever fortunate enough to get a good seat at a classical (unamplified) concert you will know what I mean - real life can sound ultra smooth, and ultra fast and sharp at the same time. I want my audio to have that range of variation - that's my goal anyway.
  
 Rob


----------



## holeout

With Magnepan 20.7, Dave's treble is one of the best I've heard, tons of micro dynamics with excellent transparency and extension. I wouldn't say that Dave is either forward or laid back, it just reproduces a truthful rendition of the software and source equipment performance. I am testing a modified Oppo 103D with DSD (DoP) output with a lot of chassis damping, the music sounded laid back and dull which seemed like having all the air sucked out. Removing all the damping material, the air came back with much better timbre and transients.


----------



## stvc

currawong said:


> Loaner. Only took one minute of listening with HD800s before I started looking around and adding up how much of my gear I could sell to buy one. I think I'd have to sell my car.
> 
> Of course, now I have to find a way to describe the experience. I might have paraphrase a Clarkson Top Gear quote when was driving a Lotus track car that was too much for him: I've heard DACs with this much detail before, and I've heard DACs that sounded this natural before, and I've experienced gear with dynamics like this before, but not all of them, all at once. It feels like a kind of sensory overload.


 
 Hi,
  
 You run in SE mode? or balance out from amp?


----------



## Crgreen

Rob makes an important point. The sound of live music is often very different. I've listened to quite a bit: orchestral, chamber music, jazz ensembles, blues bands, even the occasional arena gig, and at some venues with wonderful acoustics, like the Wigmore Hall in London and Bridgewater Hall in Manchester. From time to time I'll close my eyes and compare what I hear to hi-if. Almost invariably, the sound is a lot darker – as if suspended on a cushion of air - but with the attack and shimmer Rob mentions, and no glare: that sheen that seems to hang over a lot of reproduced music.

I've found that glare absent from the Dave. It sounds close to real music. I've had my unit for about two weeks now (using balanced out), and there have been noticeable improvements over that period. It will be interesting to hear how Rob gets on with his new unit.


----------



## Currawong

stvc said:


> Hi,
> 
> You run in SE mode? or balance out from amp?


 
  
 Neither. I'm using HD800s from the headphone socket.


----------



## shuttlepod

rob watts said:


> If you are ever fortunate enough to get a good seat at a classical (unamplified) concert you will know what I mean - real life can sound ultra smooth, and ultra fast and sharp at the same time. I want my audio to have that range of variation - that's my goal anyway.


 
  
  


crgreen said:


> Rob makes an important point. The sound of live music is often very different. I've listened to quite a bit: orchestral, chamber music, jazz ensembles, blues bands, even the occasional arena gig, and at some venues with wonderful acoustics, like the Wigmore Hall in London and Bridgewater Hall in Manchester. From time to time I'll close my eyes and compare what I hear to hi-if. Almost invariably, the sound is a lot darker – as if suspended on a cushion of air - but with the attack and shimmer Rob mentions, and no glare: that sheen that seems to hang over a lot of reproduced music.


 
  
 I attended an open rehearsal of the Seattle Symphony last night. The entire rehearsal (almost two full hours) was devoted to Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms, a true 20th century masterpiece. It was a real working rehearsal, with lots of work by conductor Ludovic Morlot on small ensembles in the orchestra. About midway through, they were joined by the Northwest Boychoir and the men's portion of the Seattle Symphony Chorale. The last half hour was a dress rehearsal of the piece for this weekend's concerts. I sat in several different seats in Benaroya Hall, one of the finest concert halls you will ever experience. By the way, a good crowd showed up for the rehearsal -- I'm guessing maybe 800 people. 
  
 Both Rob and Crgreen are correct. Live orchestral/choral music can sound super smooth at times. If you were listening to your stereo, you might wonder if transients were being rounded off. But then you hear a woodwind passage that is just so crystal clear in all dimensions, or a trumpet that cuts through the air with real bite, and you wonder no longer. Crgreen mentions a "cushion of air." That describes exactly what I often hear, like sound floating on air through the hall, a sense of air and space that no hi-fi can ever quite reproduce with the same physical feeling. Completely lacking is the artificial glare that one can perceive with digital sound. Instead, real sound in a great hall can be a little "dark" but still retain sparkle and treble detail.
  
 Regarding DAVE's treble performance, I'm going to be shortly reacquainted with it as my new DAVE arrived last night (just before heading out to the rehearsal). But my memory of it is that is a more listenable treble than I've heard from any other dac, retaining sparkle and incisiveness without adding glare.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

I know a lot of people here are Abyss/DAVE owners (I'm one of them) but the HD800's out of the DAVE are incredible!!  They are a headphone that I find to be excessively tricky to drive well and make 'sound nice' but WOW.  
  
 The DAVE just continues to impress.  More so, the more I throw at it.


----------



## paulchiu

bigfatpaulie said:


> I know a lot of people here are Abyss/DAVE owners (I'm one of them) but the HD800's out of the DAVE are incredible!!  They are a headphone that I find to be excessively tricky to drive well and make 'sound nice' but WOW.
> 
> The DAVE just continues to impress.  More so, the more I throw at it.


 
  
 What do you like with your HD800 + DAVE as compared with Abyss + DAVE?
 cloth v leather
 slim v boxy
 bass
 vocals
 stereo imaging
  
 paul


----------



## stvc

bigfatpaulie said:


> I know a lot of people here are Abyss/DAVE owners (I'm one of them) but the HD800's out of the DAVE are incredible!!  They are a headphone that I find to be excessively tricky to drive well and make 'sound nice' but WOW.
> 
> The DAVE just continues to impress.  More so, the more I throw at it.


 

 Seem like all people happy to run with headphone out? I wanted to get Super conductor for my Abyss, just trying to find out so i can decide which termination.. balance or 6.35mm headphone jack so i can directly plug to Dave, i know i will lost the flexibility with inter connect cable.


----------



## esimms86

Silver DAVE doesn't seem to get any love around here! For the record, mine is silver because that's what my dealer had in stock. There actually was a buyer ahead of me in the queue but he was holding out for DAVE in black. This fact saved me who knows how many weeks of waiting, so it's all good. As Keith sings, "You Got the Silver" LOL!


----------



## paulchiu

esimms86 said:


> Silver DAVE doesn't seem to get any love around here! For the record, mine is silver because that's what my dealer had in stock. There actually was a buyer ahead of me in the queue but he was holding out for DAVE in black. This fact saved me who knows how many weeks of waiting, so it's all good. As Keith sings, "You Got the Silver" LOL!


 
  
 Well, if I were to choose now.  I may go silver as greasy finger prints on the black DAVE/stand are rather hard to remove.
 You really do not see any oily prints on silver equipment.
  
 paul


----------



## Samuel Snoopy

Another Dave review, free download:
https://stereo-magazine.com/


----------



## bigfatpaulie

paulchiu said:


> What do you like with your HD800 + DAVE as compared with Abyss + DAVE?
> cloth v leather
> slim v boxy
> bass
> ...


 
  
 Hmmm.  I want to say that I don't think the 800's are better than the Abyss - they are both clearly top shelf.
  
 The Abyss is a dark sounding headphone.  Everything has this certain weight to it (I'm not talking about impact).  They are fast sounding and very detailed and accurate.  The HD800's are the ying to that yang - they have a bit more air, in that things sound a bit more relaxed.  They sound lighter.  I think in this side by side the 800's are a bit wider with their staging, or perhaps just separation is better?  The 800's are known for being brittle or harsh and with the DAVE none of that present - they sound smooth and effortless. 
  
 More time is needed with both with the DAVE to make an accurate comparison.  I've heard a lot of SS amps with the HD800's and the DAVE is easily the best.


----------



## paulchiu

beolab said:


> You got the same impression as i have, it is a little veil and unrealistic sound from time to time, but i think with the combination DAVE+Chord Indigo II + Headtrip+Isotek Sirius, the effect is more reduced, and it is much darker and softer, so i do not have the same screamingly high pitch any more, as i had before with all other dac;ś i have tested, which is very good.
> 
> I have not had time to investigate what realy causing this effet, but i think the stock JPS Labs cables could be one factor yes, and the synergy effect with the DAC / Amp and interconnects.
> 
> ...


 
  
 hi Fredrik,
 did you have the chance to test the Abyss superconductor cables with the AB-1266 on DAVE straight?
  
 Paul


----------



## paulchiu

bigfatpaulie said:


> Hmmm.  I want to say that I don't think the 800's are better than the Abyss - they are both clearly top shelf.
> 
> The Abyss is a dark sounding headphone.  Everything has this certain weight to it (I'm not talking about impact).  They are fast sounding and very detailed and accurate.  The HD800's are the ying to that yang - they have a bit more air, in that things sound a bit more relaxed.  They sound lighter.  I think in this side by side the 800's are a bit wider with their staging, or perhaps just separation is better?  The 800's are known for being brittle or harsh and with the DAVE none of that present - they sound smooth and effortless.
> 
> More time is needed with both with the DAVE to make an accurate comparison.  I've heard a lot of SS amps with the HD800's and the DAVE is easily the best.


 
  
 paul,
  
 this the HD800 or S?
 I found the HD800S even more smooth and on the Nagra, maybe too much so. Works great with solo material as one feels the essence of being next to the player(s) but not so much when mimicking a loud ear-killing live rock concert.  Here, I feel the DAVE with the HD800S or HE1000 can handle the presentation.  Of course, I can dial down the ear-splitting levels to actually enjoy the music at home and one never can at the live venue.
  
 paul


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

Hi All you lucky and fortunate DAVE Owners.   Hope all of you are enjoying this amazing DAC from a great British company. 
  
 Have any of you lucky people heard the DAVE with say a HD800 or HiFiMan HE100 vs the DAVE connected to the BHSE and Stax 009's ?.    
  
 If you have, would sincerely appreciate if you could share your thoughts.


----------



## rkt31

seems majority of dave owners are using it with headphones. is anybody using dave directly to power amp and speakers set up ? I have Hugo and despite headphones giving slightly more details , I prefer my speaker set up with Hugo as it gives the feel of being right in front of the performers !


----------



## bigfatpaulie

paulchiu said:


> paul,
> 
> this the HD800 or S?
> I found the HD800S even more smooth and on the Nagra, maybe too much so. Works great with solo material as one feels the essence of being next to the player(s) but not so much when mimicking a loud ear-killing live rock concert.  Here, I feel the DAVE with the HD800S or HE1000 can handle the presentation.  Of course, I can dial down the ear-splitting levels to actually enjoy the music at home and one never can at the live venue.
> ...


 
  
 Non-S.  Un-modded, but with a double helix Compliment 4 cable.  I think (and this is me) that the S's lose that sparkle or edge that makes the 800's what they are. 
  
 Out of interest, which headphones do you find yourself reaching for the most?


----------



## bigfatpaulie

bonesy jonesy said:


> Hi All you lucky and fortunate DAVE Owners.   Hope all of you are enjoying this amazing DAC from a great British company.
> 
> Have any of you lucky people heard the DAVE with say a HD800 or HiFiMan HE100 vs the DAVE connected to the BHSE and Stax 009's ?.
> 
> If you have, would sincerely appreciate if you could share your thoughts.


 
  
 I've heard the 009's with the BHSE a few times (but not with a DAVE in the mix).  I personally never cared for them - a bit sterile for my tastes, lacking in body.  The 800's lose some microdetail that the 9's have but gain a certain aplomb or texture.  I prefer the 800's + Stratus by a mile.  
  
 The 009 + BHSE + DAVE may be a different story, but I think the 009's are what they are.  If I were a Stax guy the 007s would be my poison.  The DAVE + BHSE + 007's may be a different story.


----------



## shuttlepod

rkt31 said:


> seems majority of dave owners are using it with headphones. is anybody using dave directly to power amp and speakers set up ? I have Hugo and despite headphones giving slightly more details , I prefer my speaker set up with Hugo as it gives the feel of being right in front of the performers !


 

 Although my experience with DAVE is fairly short so far, I am certain that I will be using it with my speaker-based system more than with headphones. Since I have an integrated amp, I don't run it in "digital preamp" mode, I run it in "DAC" mode. Perhaps when Chord comes out with the "digital amp" that Rob is working on, I'll try the DAVE direct-to-amp.
  
 I find that the depth one hears with headphones is simply greater in magnitude with speakers. Of course there are other aspects (e.g., micro details) that one hears more easily with headphones. They both have a time and place.


----------



## yellowblue

I had the HD800 with Anax-mod and unmodded the HD800 after a while because they were smooth even without mod (but that´s also a question about which cable you use) on the Dave. Just now I have the Superdupont-mod installed and find that to be a perfect compromise between the HD800 and HD800S.


----------



## ecwl

shuttlepod said:


> rkt31 said:
> 
> 
> > seems majority of dave owners are using it with headphones. is anybody using dave directly to power amp and speakers set up ? I have Hugo and despite headphones giving slightly more details , I prefer my speaker set up with Hugo as it gives the feel of being right in front of the performers !
> ...




I almost listen to DAVE exclusively with speakers. My best headphones is HD650. I always enjoy the depth and micro details speakers provide more than headphones because it feels more like it's in real space. I use DAVE for volume control, directly connected to my power amplifier and stereo powered subwoofers. I have a strong suspicion the difference in depth you're hearing is predominantly due to the transparency of the preamplifier section of your integrated amplifier. I used to have the $4500 Sanders preamplifier which was superbly transparent except when I took it out, my Chord QBD76HDSD achieved a completely higher level of transparency. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## shuttlepod

ecwl said:


> I almost listen to DAVE exclusively with speakers. My best headphones is HD650. I always enjoy the depth and micro details speakers provide more than headphones because it feels more like it's in real space. I use DAVE for volume control, directly connected to my power amplifier and stereo powered subwoofers. I have a strong suspicion the difference in depth you're hearing is predominantly due to the transparency of the preamplifier section of your integrated amplifier. I used to have the $4500 Sanders preamplifier which was superbly transparent except when I took it out, my Chord QBD76HDSD achieved a completely higher level of transparency.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 

 No preamp might well be more transparent but I'm in no hurry to get rid of my integrated as I anticipate there will be exceptional transparency and synergy with Rob's new digital amp -- though I suspect that will happen in 2017 at the earliest.


----------



## Kakki

Seeing the diagram Rob provided, I assume that the DX power amp receives 16FS digital signals from Dave.
 In this case, the DX power amp will not appreciate the remaining interpolations, 17th order noise shapers, and 20 elements pulse array DAC in Dave?
  
 I remember that Rob indicated that there will be 2 grades of DX power amp ... one is Hugo grade and another Dave grade coming later.
 If we would want to enjoy Dave grade sound quality with speakers, we need to go for Dave + Dave grade DX power amp as more than half of the data processing happens in the DX power amp?
  
 Quote:


rob watts said:


> Chord's Korean distributor asked for a simple block diagram for Dave so here goes:


----------



## lojay

bonesy jonesy said:


> Hi All you lucky and fortunate DAVE Owners.   Hope all of you are enjoying this amazing DAC from a great British company.
> 
> Have any of you lucky people heard the DAVE with say a HD800 or HiFiMan HE100 vs the DAVE connected to the BHSE and Stax 009's ?.
> 
> If you have, would sincerely appreciate if you could share your thoughts.





bigfatpaulie said:


> I've heard the 009's with the BHSE a few times (but not with a DAVE in the mix).  I personally never cared for them - a bit sterile for my tastes, lacking in body.  The 800's lose some microdetail that the 9's have but gain a certain aplomb or texture.  I prefer the 800's + Stratus by a mile.
> 
> The 009 + BHSE + DAVE may be a different story, but I think the 009's are what they are.  If I were a Stax guy the 007s would be my poison.  The DAVE + BHSE + 007's may be a different story.



In my rig I use the HD800 (semi modded), HE1000 and SR009 with the DAVE. The former two are directly connected to the DAVE's headphone output whilst the SR009 is connected via the DIY T2. 

I suspect that the BHSE is what is imposing on the SR009 its sterile character. I had a number of amps for the SR009 over the years and the headphone changes its character dramatically and fundamentally with the amp. I find the DAVE/T2/SR009 combination nearly flawless in all aspects including musicality and naturalness. I listen to it most of the time.

It is certainly more musical and organic than the HD800 which sounds more clinical in comparison. But the DAVE manages to bring the best of the HD800 I must say, probably better than my old Eddie Current 445 that I have sold before having the DAVE.


----------



## paulchiu

bigfatpaulie said:


> Non-S.  Un-modded, but with a double helix Compliment 4 cable.  I think (and this is me) that the S's lose that sparkle or edge that makes the 800's what they are.
> 
> Out of interest, which headphones do you find yourself reaching for the most?


 
  
 most used is AKG K812 overall.
  
 then 
 HE1000
 SR009
 PS1000e
  
 from time to time
 ED10
 HD800 or HD800 S
 TH900


----------



## paulchiu

bigfatpaulie said:


> I've heard the 009's with the BHSE a few times (but not with a DAVE in the mix).  I personally never cared for them - a bit sterile for my tastes, lacking in body.  The 800's lose some microdetail that the 9's have but gain a certain aplomb or texture.  I prefer the 800's + Stratus by a mile.
> 
> The 009 + BHSE + DAVE may be a different story, but I think the 009's are what they are.  If I were a Stax guy the 007s would be my poison.  The DAVE + BHSE + 007's may be a different story.


 
  
 i also like the 007 II more than 009 with BHSE
 driving the BHSE with Nagra HD DAC has worked very well.


----------



## NGSKGSncLWHmD9X

samuel snoopy said:


> Another Dave review, free download:
> https://stereo-magazine.com/




3 star price/performance rate (very good) out of 5 for %100 SQ. How is it evaluated like that?


----------



## Rob Watts

> Originally Posted by *Kakki* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Seeing the diagram Rob provided, I assume that the DX power amp receives 16FS digital signals from Dave.
> In this case, the DX power amp will not appreciate the remaining interpolations, 17th order noise shapers, and 20 elements pulse array DAC in Dave?
> ...


 
  
 Except WTA 1 (getting to 16FS) uses 90% of the FPGA DSP, and most of the FPGA fabric. So just having to deal with a 16FS signal will free up a great deal of resources. The interesting thing will be how much benefit I can get by fully using all this capacity, just on the WTA2, interpolation and noise shaping. Of course the smaller amp will use a smaller FPGA, but with a massive FPGA will a much bigger WTA2 make a better sound quality? Part of the things I am finding out this year. Of course the Dave power amp will be much more powerful than the Hugo power amp, there are more things with a power amp than just the FPGA!
 Rob


----------



## Jawed

rob watts said:


> Except WTA 1 (getting to 16FS) uses 90% of the FPGA DSP, and most of the FPGA fabric. So just having to deal with a 16FS signal will free up a great deal of resources. The interesting thing will be how much benefit I can get by fully using all this capacity, just on the WTA2, interpolation and noise shaping. Of course the smaller amp will use a smaller FPGA, but with a massive FPGA will a much bigger WTA2 make a better sound quality? Part of the things I am finding out this year.



If the benefit is there then it implies that a DAC that uses two FPGAs in a cascade would be on another plane...

Hmm, I imagine now that you have the second DAVE and the ability to re-program it to take 16FS input as its baseline, you're all set to find out what the cascade sounds like!


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

lojay said:


> In my rig I use the HD800 (semi modded), HE1000 and SR009 with the DAVE. The former two are directly connected to the DAVE's headphone output whilst the SR009 is connected via the DIY T2.
> 
> I suspect that the BHSE is what is imposing on the SR009 its sterile character. I had a number of amps for the SR009 over the years and the headphone changes its character dramatically and fundamentally with the amp. I find the DAVE/T2/SR009 combination nearly flawless in all aspects including musicality and naturalness. I listen to it most of the time.
> 
> It is certainly more musical and organic than the HD800 which sounds more clinical in comparison. But the DAVE manages to bring the best of the HD800 I must say, probably better than my old Eddie Current 445 that I have sold before having the DAVE.


 

 Thank you lojay.   Much appreciated.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

paulchiu said:


> i also like the 007 II more than 009 with BHSE
> driving the BHSE with Nagra HD DAC has worked very well.


 

 Thank you paulchiu.   Much appreciated.


----------



## STR-1

Can anyone comment on whether mains conditioning would normally be beneficial for use with the Dave (accepting that everyone's mains supply is different)? My current setup is AK380/Dave/HE1000 & LCD-4. I can live with the AK380 as the source for a while longer but eventually want to get a better option (possibly Aurender X100L but also interested by recent posts on microRendu). Any views on whether main regeneration (e.g. PS Audio PS 3 or PS 5) or mains conditioning is the best bet? Thanks.


----------



## Kakki

rob watts said:


> Except WTA 1 (getting to 16FS) uses 90% of the FPGA DSP, and most of the FPGA fabric. So just having to deal with a 16FS signal will free up a great deal of resources. The interesting thing will be how much benefit I can get by fully using all this capacity, just on the WTA2, interpolation and noise shaping. Of course the smaller amp will use a smaller FPGA, but with a massive FPGA will a much bigger WTA2 make a better sound quality? Part of the things I am finding out this year. Of course the Dave power amp will be much more powerful than the Hugo power amp, there are more things with a power amp than just the FPGA!


 
  
 Thank you Rob, for your explanations!
  
 So Dave + Dave power amp = Super Dave!? Very much interested to see what will happen.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

paulchiu said:


> most used is AKG K812 overall.
> 
> then
> HE1000
> ...


 
  
 Not a fan of the Abyss then? 
  
 Interesting to hear you gravitate to the 812's.  That's not a super common choice.  I've never heard them - Sounds like they are well worth an audition.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

lojay said:


> In my rig I use the HD800 (semi modded), HE1000 and SR009 with the DAVE. The former two are directly connected to the DAVE's headphone output whilst the SR009 is connected via the DIY T2.
> 
> I suspect that the BHSE is what is imposing on the SR009 its sterile character. I had a number of amps for the SR009 over the years and the headphone changes its character dramatically and fundamentally with the amp. I find the DAVE/T2/SR009 combination nearly flawless in all aspects including musicality and naturalness. I listen to it most of the time.
> 
> It is certainly more musical and organic than the HD800 which sounds more clinical in comparison. But the DAVE manages to bring the best of the HD800 I must say, probably better than my old Eddie Current 445 that I have sold before having the DAVE.


 
  
  
 I actually found a local experienced builder who was willing to build a DIY T2 for me but I passed.  I suppose being unsure of the 009's and all this talk of the Circlotron made me decide against it.  It's a tough cookie because it is such an (expensive) rarity.


----------



## paulchiu

bigfatpaulie said:


> Not a fan of the Abyss then?
> 
> Interesting to hear you gravitate to the 812's.  That's not a super common choice.  I've never heard them - Sounds like they are well worth an audition.


 
  
 Never heard the Abyss.  Thinking of ordering one.


----------



## shuttlepod

DAVE arrived at my home here in Seattle a few days ago and is now firmly ensconced in my system. Here are some photos:


----------



## brightonjel

Beautiful system, and with a room to match - thanks for the pictures and congratulations on the new arrival!


----------



## TheAttorney

shuttlepod said:


> DAVE arrived at my home here in Seattle a few days ago and is now firmly ensconced in my system. Here are some photos:


 
 Even though you already have a good quality rack, you've still added what looks like the Ikea chopping board and some stillpoints between that and DAVE. Did each of these make a worthwhile difference?
  
 I have a couple of those low cost Ikea boards, but have not yet got round to doing any direct comparisons.


----------



## maxh22

shuttlepod said:


> DAVE arrived at my home here in Seattle a few days ago and is now firmly ensconced in my system. Here are some photos:


 
  
 It looks so beautiful! How do you like the sound?


----------



## shuttlepod

theattorney said:


> Even though you already have a good quality rack, you've still added what looks like the Ikea chopping board and some stillpoints between that and DAVE. Did each of these make a worthwhile difference?
> 
> I have a couple of those low cost Ikea boards, but have not yet got round to doing any direct comparisons.


 

 Yep, that's the IKEA $14.99 bamboo chopping board and DAVE is sitting on three Stillpoints Ultra Minis ($125 for each Stillpoint Mini). (And there are plenty of other IKEA boards wherever I use Stillpoints.)  
  
 I have a very bouncy suspended oak floor in my 1923 house so component isolation is critical, especially turntables and speakers. The rack is by Finite Elemente, the footers for the rack are the Cerabases. I previously used Finite Elemente Ceraballs under certain components and still use them on a few components (e.g., the motor controller for the TW Acustic TT).
  
 Stillpoints are not a cheap tweak but they were an audible, significant upgrade from the Ceraballs. The Stillpoints couple better with the multi-layer bamboo better than they do the hard rock maple shelves of the rack, or (especially) my oak floorboards under the speakers. Yes, the difference was immediately audible. In descending order of magnitude, Stillpoints have made biggest difference with:  1) speakers; 2) power conditioner; 3) amp; 4) DAVE and phono stage. Indispensable for #1-3. I found they did not make much of a difference with my TW Acustic TT, which is isolated from the floor by my wall mounted rack. 
  
 I'm not sure that other isolation devices will benefit from the bamboo to the same extent as the Stillpoints. The Ceraballs, for example, may do better when sitting on the maple shelves.


----------



## bmichels

lojay said:


> .....* the BHSE is what is imposing on the SR009 its sterile character*. I had a number of amps for the SR009 over the years and the headphone changes its character dramatically and fundamentally with the amp. I find the DAVE/T2/SR009 combination nearly flawless in all aspects including musicality and naturalness. I listen to it most of the time.
> 
> It is certainly more musical and organic than the HD800 which sounds more clinical in comparison. But the DAVE manages to bring the best of the HD800 I must say, probably better than my old Eddie Current 445 that I have sold before having the DAVE.




You make me nervous when you state this. I hope I will not be disapointed by my BHSE when I will receive it


----------



## shuttlepod

maxh22 said:


> It looks so beautiful! How do you like the sound?


 

 I like it a lot! DAVE has vastly improved my digital sound, which wasn't bad when I was using my Ayre QB-9 DSD. And, as you can see, I also am a vinyl fan, with separate turntables for stereo and mono.


----------



## TheAttorney

shuttlepod said:


> Yep, that's the IKEA $14.99 bamboo chopping board and DAVE is sitting on three Stillpoints Ultra Minis ($125 for each Stillpoint Mini). (And there are plenty of other IKEA boards wherever I use Stillpoints.)


 
 Just to continue the kitchen-fi theme for a moment, I have some cheapo damping pads on their way, designed to reduce washing machine vibrations. On another thread, MusicMan rates these pads as better than his TOTL Stillpoints Ultra 6's - in certain locations, as the Stillpoints do indeed seem to vary considerably depending on the type of surface they're on.
  
 As they're cheap, I ordered a set of pads for fun, and will try them first under DAVE. Probably won't be as attractive as that Acoustic Revive plinth that was mentioned recently, but hey, if it doesn't work out, I can always put them under my washing machine )


----------



## TheAttorney

bmichels said:


> You make me nervous when you state this. I hope I will not be disapointed by my BHSE when I will receive it


 
 You can stop worrying right now! It's a fantastic combination.
 I'll elaborate when I get a bit more time.


----------



## Crgreen

Tesco bamboo chopping boards are even cheaper - I have one under my Dave, with Russ Andrews' wooden cone feet.

Interested in those washing machine dampeners. Could solve the problems I have with my SME 20 being stood on my washing machine


----------



## Mojo ideas

shuttlepod said:


> DAVE arrived at my home here in Seattle a few days ago and is now firmly ensconced in my system. Here are some photos:


 Have you thought about getting the chord stand I think it'll help make the display easier to see.


----------



## shuttlepod

theattorney said:


> Just to continue the kitchen-fi theme for a moment, I have some cheapo damping pads on their way, designed to reduce washing machine vibrations. On another thread, MusicMan rates these pads as better than his TOTL Stillpoints Ultra 6's - in certain locations, as the Stillpoints do indeed seem to vary considerably depending on the type of surface they're on.
> 
> As they're cheap, I ordered a set of pads for fun, and will try them first under DAVE. Probably won't be as attractive as that Acoustic Revive plinth that was mentioned recently, but hey, if it doesn't work out, I can always put them under my washing machine )


 

 Kitchen-fi -- I love it. I'm all for exploring cheap, practical tweaks, especially applications that have been used outside of traditional high end audio. Looking forward to your report on the pads.


----------



## TheAttorney

crgreen said:


> Tesco bamboo chopping boards are even cheaper - I have one under my Dave, with Russ Andrews' wooden cone feet.


 
 Ikea also do cheaper versions, but only this particular thicker model has the cross-directional sandwich design that a mainstream reviewer went nuts over a while back. That's not to say the Tesco ones can't also be great, I'm just not inclined to try a comparison.
  


mojo ideas said:


> Have you thought about getting the chord stand I think it'll help make the display easier to see.


 
 Let me get this straight: You're suggesting that people should try the stand that was carefully and lovingly designed as a perfect match for the DAVE? Now that's just being silly! When we have all these weird and wacky things to try first.
  
 Actually, the dedicated stand is not for me, because it considerably increases DAVE's height and footprint, so wouldn't work in my cramped location, and I like DAVE's small, discrete look as is. I may change my mind though if I saw a stand in the flesh. From the photos, it's hard to judge the impact this would have on DAVE's aesthetics. Would probably make it much more imposing.


----------



## Crgreen

Well, in my neck of the woods, IKEA no longer supply the thicker cross-directional boards. Apparently they've been discontinued but I assume they'll be replaced with something similar. Therefore, I went for the Tesco board, with a view to "upgrading" to IKEA when I'm able.

In addition, having just dropped something just short of 8k on a Dave (and I don't begrudge it for a moment) I am what economists call "skint" and therefore my hi-fi purchase are limited to kitchenware.

It's fridge magnets next, which I hope will do wonders for my cables!


----------



## Crgreen

Perhaps I should add that there is a serious hi-fi use for fridge magnets. If you have one of those top-loading CD players with a puck to stabilise the CD, after a year or so the CDs can start to skip as the magnet in the puck loses its magnetism. The solution is to remagnestise the puck by leaving it attached to a fridge magnet overnight. Normal play will then be resumed. 

Of course, most people on this forum won't have such players, but it could be worth passing on.

And then there was all that putting your cables in the freezer stuff.


----------



## Ampus

Hi guys and gals,

New to this very informative forum. I am contemplating about purchasing the DAVE; however, I am holding off the purchase as Rob Watts indicated in one of his previous posts that he may update the code on DAVE. I don't want to get the DAVE now, even with a 3 - 4 weeks waiting time, and have to send it back for code update. Just wonder if Rob has had a chance to do further testing on DAVE and make a decision regarding code update yet?

With regards to Crgreen's post, just wonder if the CD player with magnetic puck sounds relevatory compared to CD players without as "Magnetic" (not meaning to imply anything about Hi Fidelity magnetic products) seems to be the catch phase now a day .


----------



## Rob Watts

Wow if you wait for a sound quality code update you may wait for a long time!
  
 Its not entirely clear that one will be needed, and I am only thinking about possible improvements when its coupled with a Davina, so optimising Dave to work with 768 kHz. So we are talking about 2017 at the earliest, and if optimizing at 768k gives no SQ improvement then not at all.
  
 Rob


----------



## Torq

rob watts said:


> Wow if you wait for a sound quality code update you may wait for a long time!
> 
> Its not entirely clear that one will be needed, and I am only thinking about possible improvements when its coupled with a Davina, so optimising Dave to work with 768 kHz. So we are talking about 2017 at the earliest, and if optimizing at 768k gives no SQ improvement then not at all.
> 
> Rob


 

 I'm just waiting for a proper response to the double and quad rate DSD drop-out issue on OS X (no, I've not tried to address you directly on it, been working through dealers, which is proving to be completely fruitless).
  
 As I understand it, the issue is a combination of a change in OS X and USB handling coupled with the way the Chord DACs handle DoP "faults".  But since other DACs (I've tested the Auralic Vega and the PS Audio units for example), have no such issues with quad-rate DSD from OS X this is not a problem that I'm willing to ascribe solely to Apple's current OS release.  Also, the issue exists when driven from an Auralic Aries as well, which removes the Mac/OS X from the equation completely.
  
 Any thoughts?  Solutions?


----------



## Ampus

Thanks Rob. I will ask my dealer to proceed with the order. Perhaps you could incorporate double-grade rare earth magnets into Davina's circuit to enhance the animal magnetism of the unit or to levitate the unit to the next level


----------



## Crgreen

ampus said:


> Hi guys and gals,
> 
> With regards to Crgreen's post, just wonder if the CD player with magnetic puck sounds relevatory compared to CD players without as "Magnetic" (not meaning to imply anything about Hi Fidelity magnetic products) seems to be the catch phase now a day .




I was mightily relieved, thinking that I'd have to return my Audio Research CD5 due to a faulty mechanism. A lovely player with a gorgeous sound, and eight valves inside which meant it ran very hot. If CDs were the only game in town, I'd probably have kept it, but there was no digital input. Very different from the Dave. Once you've experienced that Hugo/Dave presentation and tonal quality, there's no going back. 

Reaching 600 hours of play on my Dave. There seem to have been small improvements over the last week, but it could be that I'm just getting more used to it. It's funny, I've been listening to a lot of piano music and am even more aware of differences in location acoustic, piano quality and microphone placement. Even some soft buzzing as a foot is raised from a pedal which would probably have led to a retake, except I imagine that the producer and pianist probably didn't hear it on the playback equipment used! And this is at moderate volume over speakers. 

Colin


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Wow if you wait for a sound quality code update you may wait for a long time!
> 
> Its not entirely clear that one will be needed, and I am only thinking about possible improvements when its coupled with a Davina, so optimising Dave to work with 768 kHz. So we are talking about 2017 at the earliest, and if optimizing at 768k gives no SQ improvement then not at all.
> 
> Rob




I assume code upgrade would be possible through USB then, or do we all have to send it in to England (Chord) for the upgrade Rob?


----------



## x RELIC x

beolab said:


> I assume code upgrade would be possible through USB then, or do we all have to send it in to England (Chord) for the upgrade then?






rob watts said:


> *Code updates (if needed) will need a return to a trained distributor or Chord.* I won't do it for a minor change.
> 
> The new Dave turned up on Friday, but I am away on holiday for the school half term this week. Should be able to listen to it next week.
> 
> Rob


----------



## Beolab

-//-


----------



## x RELIC x

beolab said:


> Yes i remember i read that now, but it is a small pitty knowing that the Dave are not so *SW upgrade* friendly, when you have to replace the hole chipset like on the QBD76 days.




Well to be fair, in principle, it's not like it's any different than the filters that exist on the ESS9018 for example, or many R2R OS algorithms that don't get upgrades. I really don't see many people wanting to send in those other DACs for a filter upgrade, even if it were possible. For example, Audio-GD just released a new NOS line for their PCM1704 DACs and any existing units need to be sent back for the upgrade. 

It's not just a simple _simple SW_ update for the Chord DACs, it's basically the core functionality programmed in to the FPGA and I imagine if something goes wrong it would be very bad. I trust that Rob has put enough in to the DAVE at this point to not really want an incremental upgrade (when I eventually get a DAVE that is). I for one am very happy just knowing that there is even the possibility of an upgrade for the DAVE if he does find any significant improvements. Sure, if it could be done by USB that would be great but it seems that it's just not that easy.


----------



## Beolab

x relic x said:


> Well to be fair, in principle, it's not like it's any different than the filters that exist on the ESS9018 for example, or many R2R OS algorithms that don't get upgrades. I really don't see many people wanting to send in those other DACs for a filter upgrade, even if it were possible. For example, Audio-GD just released a new NOS line for their PCM1704 DACs and any existing units need to be sent back for the upgrade.
> 
> It's not just a simple _simple SW_ update for the Chord DACs, it's basically the core functionality programmed in to the FPGA and I imagine if something goes wrong it would be very bad. I trust that Rob has put enough in to the DAVE at this point to not really want an incremental upgrade (when I eventually get a DAVE that is). I for one am very happy just knowing that there is even the possibility of an upgrade for the DAVE if he does find any significant improvements. Sure, if it could be done by USB that would be great but it seems that it's just not that easy.




Yes i am very well aware of the procedure from the QBD76 days, and why its most likely not possible to make a SW upgrade, but nevertheless i stand by my opinion.

Hoping for MQA implementation support that day if the new code arrive in the same upgrade. 

When we are on the subject MQA,
BlueSound released MQA support the last night and it works really well with the small amount of titles that are download able from the 2L page. Would have bin fun with something else than classical music, but i think Paul Bråtelund who i know personally, and are in charge of Tidal waiting for more titles to be released in a not so distant time before pulling the trigger wink.gif

This is going to release a new "MP3 age" from what i can hear from the 10 tracks i got to date, yes it is better than CD if i compare the same track 1-1, more separation and timing / clarity, not so muddy buttery fat and hide the high resolution that a 16/44.1 recording can be in some occasions.
Does it sound better than a 24/192 or DSD 128 file, its hard to tell because the BlueSound streamer decode and then send out the MQA signal in 24/192k/bit PCM so it is hard to make a real comparison here, but i feel it is less sterile and more musical rich with a slight greater timing than usual 24/192 recordings.

This is promising, but it is sad that i have to do the conversation inside the Streamer and not inside the DAVE for max output as i mentioned.

Hope Chord can smoke a friendly cigar with the Meridian camp anytime soon like the Auralic Chinese guys did in Las Vegas at CES.


----------



## x RELIC x

beolab said:


> Yes i am very well aware of the procedure from the QBD76 days, and why its most likely not possible to make a SW upgrade, but nevertheless i stand by my opinion.
> 
> Hoping for MQA implementation support that day if the new code arrive in the same upgrade.
> 
> ...




Interesting observations on MQA. I'm reserving judgment and waiting to see how it pans out, especially after reading articles like this:

http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2016/01/measurements-mqa-master-quality.html


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> I assume code upgrade would be possible through USB then, or do we all have to send it in to England (Chord) for the upgrade Rob?


 
 It will need to be back to Chord, or trained distributors. But it is a simple process.
  
 Rob


----------



## Paul Bjernklo

brightonjel said:


> Beautiful system, and with a room to match - thanks for the pictures and congratulations on the new arrival!


 Yes, very nice, what turntable is the one to the left!


----------



## shuttlepod

paul bjernklo said:


> Yes, very nice, what turntable is the one to the left!


 

 The TT on the left is a Rega RP-8. I've dedicated that TT to mono playback and it is fitted with a Miyajima Spirit mono cartridge. I don't have a huge mono collection (close to 100 albums) but they are really fun to listen to. I've been able to find some really good used mono records here in Seattle. After cleaning, some of these records sound practically new. Groove noise is much less of an issue with a mono cart.
  
 My primary TT is the TW Acustic Raven on the right. Also fitted with a Miyajima cart, the Shilabe. Very pleased with it.


----------



## Beolab

Unpacked a new DAVE tonight with 1680 numbers in btw the serial numbers from my old 500h burned in DAVE, and compared it to my new 2 h warmed up new DAVE.. 

Any diffrence everyone ask!!?? 




Drums please.... 








Not a single difference at all as a mather of fact, it is sounding exactly equal as my 500 houers DAVE , so the burn-in are in our brains. 

The brain do tricks to our minds every second more or less, but i cant hear any difference. 

( I got very sensible hearing ) 

The test is dun with: 

MQA extreme quality





One of my most detailed / velvety headphones Ultrasone Edition 12 , and sounds almost as my Stax SR-009 in the upper highs.


----------



## paulchiu

beolab said:


> One of my most detailed / velvety headphones Ultrasone Edition 12 , and sounds almost as my Stax SR-009 in the upper highs.


 
  
 i love my ED10 too.  Creamy with Nagra and a tad more dynamic with DAVE.
  
 Paul


----------



## Beolab

paulchiu said:


> i love my ED10 too.  Creamy with Nagra and a tad more dynamic with DAVE.
> 
> 
> 
> Paul




Very underrated headphones, but they need the right equipment to sound real good. 
They do not have a sledgehammer of bass, but the midrange and the velvety upper highs got the very much the same signature as my Abyss and SR-009 = very high resolution , clarity / 3D depth and great fast transients..,


----------



## paulchiu

beolab said:


> Very underrated headphones, but they need the right equipment to sound real good.
> They do not have a sledgehammer of bass, but the midrange and the velvety upper highs got the very much the same signature as my Abyss and SR-009 = very high resolution , clarity / 3D depth and great fast transients..,


 
  
 Yes, the ED10 is hard to drive.  It does not sound good with the Hugo, or any of the SS head-amps I have including the Grace M line or a current 430 HAD.  With tubes, it sings.  Especially with Western Electric 300B or the current Takatsuki TA300B.
  
 Another benefit of the ED10 is the ultra low EMI output from the drivers.  The lowest measured levels among my headphones.
  
 (The Chord DAVE is the lowest EMI emitting DAC/head-amp which I have)
 Whether this has any effects on sound is above my paygrade.
  
 Paul


----------



## mtoc

Rob, tell us somethin' about the Chord ADC...


----------



## Rob Watts

Soon I will be talking about the Davina ADC - schematics are almost finished, and board layout is about 75% done now. I plan to do a blog post once Gerber files are released to Chord.
  
 Here is a screen shot of the layout so far:
  

  
 The three DIP switches (bottom left) will allow me to switch on/off all 11 analogue integrators.
  
 Rob


----------



## rkt31

@rob , can you please tell, when we will get a sample flac file created by Davina ?


----------



## romaz

torq said:


> I'm just waiting for a proper response to the double and quad rate DSD drop-out issue on OS X (no, I've not tried to address you directly on it, been working through dealers, which is proving to be completely fruitless).
> 
> As I understand it, the issue is a combination of a change in OS X and USB handling coupled with the way the Chord DACs handle DoP "faults".  But since other DACs (I've tested the Auralic Vega and the PS Audio units for example), have no such issues with quad-rate DSD from OS X this is not a problem that I'm willing to ascribe solely to Apple's current OS release.  Also, the issue exists when driven from an Auralic Aries as well, which removes the Mac/OS X from the equation completely.
> 
> Any thoughts?  Solutions?


 
 I forget which digital source you're using but even with the latest El Capitan update on my Mac Pro (10.11.5) or when using a sonicTransporter (which has a very weak Celeron CPU) feeding my microRendu and then feeding the DAVE via DoP, I can play DSD256 files smoothly.  There is the rare drop-out with DSD256 but mostly, all DSD is now playing smoothly with my DAVE and so the DAVE is not the sole culprit here.
  

  
 This came about only after Andrew Gillis updated the firmware on the microRendu and after Roon came out with its latest patch.  For whatever reason, neither Roon nor the microRendu was recognizing the DAVE as capable of 768kHz sampling and so Roon was going out its way to unnecessarily transcode DSD128 and DSD256 to PCM at various bitrates (as low as 352.8kHz) that turned out to be very CPU intensive and resulted in not just dropouts but outright stalls.  Since the fix, the following is what I now get when I play a DSD file --> no more transcoding!
  

  
  
 Now, immediately after this software fix, I continued to get a few dropouts here and there.  Andrew suggested the problem is with my network.  The first thing I did was upgrade to a more robust (newer) router and this resulted in improvement.  If you are using a NAS or server that is located remotely, consider moving it as close to the router as possible and without any intervening switches or hubs.  If there is a way to give priority to the port that your NAS or server is connected to, you should probably do so.  My sonicTransporter had been located in my home theater closet at the other end of my house (about 35 feet from my router) and after I moved it and directly connected it to my router with a 1 foot CAT6A cable, my dropouts have virtually all disappeared.  I still get the rare dropout with DSD256 files and I suspect if I moved my router (which currently sits about 50 feet from my microRendu and my DAVE) back into my listening room and immediately adjacent to my microRendu + DAVE, these dropouts would probably disappear altogether but as of right now, I am quite pleased.


----------



## Rob Watts

I have a history of always being late on projects - even when I double the time it takes from my estimates... This is very true for cutting edge work, which has an element of research to it. So take what I say with a pinch of salt - so the PCB will be finished this month. Then it will probably be September before I get the prototypes. Then how long to get it working? I won't do test recordings till its perfect, so we are looking at the end of the year when tracks will get published - at the earliest. I am currently thinking of things to record, and the mic and equipment I need to do this. 
  
 Rob


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> Hoping for MQA implementation support that day if the new code arrive in the same upgrade.
> 
> Hope Chord can smoke a friendly cigar with the Meridian camp anytime soon like the Auralic Chinese guys did in Las Vegas at CES.


 
 I used to belong to the camp that believed MQA was a win-win for all but once you understand how it works and how it must take charge of the DAC for it to function optimally, it becomes clearer that this is not a good solution for all DACs.  With respect to the DAVE and the rest of Rob's DACs, to implement MQA would mean that the DAVE would have to stop oversampling for its own purposes and instead oversample for MQA's purposes meaning you can't have both.  
  
 As for other DAC companies lining up to support MQA, there seems to be quite a lack of enthusiasm, don't you think?  Despite all of the traveling demonstrations over the past year and all the press at CES in January, nearly 6 months later, we still have only 3 DAC companies supporting MQA (2 if you don't count Meridian).  First of all, MQA won't work well on R2R DACs because of their inability to oversample to high levels so don't count on the likes of MSB or TotalDac signing up.  PS Audio has already come out saying MQA files actually sound worse on their FPGA DACs and so they have no plans to support it at all:
  
 http://www.audiostream.com/content/ps-audios-paul-mcgowan-weighs-mqa#3FESB5qPGG90RqSM.97
  
 Schiit has already come out saying they won't be supporting MQA either:
  
 http://www.audiostream.com/content/schiit-audio-why-we-wont-be-supporting-mqa#zrBZQwdPcVMVCh2k.97
  
 As for the friendly cigar Meridian smoked with Auralic, this deal appears dead because Meridian has decided their technology is best implemented at the DAC and not the server:
  
 https://community.roonlabs.com/t/withdrawal-of-mqa-support/6730
  
 As for MQA sounding better than standard 16/44, I would agree there is an improvement in the files I've heard using a Mytek Brooklyn DAC but the improvement in no way rivals what I hear with standard 16/44 on the DAVE.  Here is a review that came out earlier today by Michael Lavorgna that I find to be more balanced than the overly effusive praise thrown onto MQA by Robert Harley:
  
 http://www.audiostream.com/content/mqa-reviewed#QhkzkSDLvM9cPKU2.97 
  
 Perhaps the biggest reason you will never see (or care to see) MQA support on a Chord DAC:  DAVINA


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> I used to belong to the camp that believed MQA was a win-win for all but once you understand how it works and how it must take charge of the DAC for it to function optimally, it becomes clearer that this is not a good solution for all DACs.  With respect to the DAVE and the rest of Rob's DACs, to implement MQA would mean that the DAVE would have to stop oversampling for its own purposes and instead oversample for MQA's purposes meaning you can't have both.
> 
> As for other DAC companies lining up to support MQA, there seems to be quite a lack of enthusiasm, don't you think?  Despite all of the traveling demonstrations over the past year and all the press at CES in January, nearly 6 months later, we still have only 3 DAC companies supporting MQA (2 if you don't count Meridian).  First of all, MQA won't work well on R2R DACs because of their inability to oversample to high levels so don't count on the likes of MSB or TotalDac signing up.  PS Audio has already come out saying MQA files actually sound worse on their FPGA DACs and so they have no plans to support it at all:
> 
> ...




Yes, i have no worries, in 5 years we know if this is the format to go for or not, its hard to judge today. The most of the brands are waiting for more content and for the Tidal MQA service, so i lend my 50 cents on the MQA format will be a big thing in 3-6 years time from now.


----------



## NGSKGSncLWHmD9X

rob watts said:


> I have a history of always being late on projects - even when I double the time it takes from my estimates... This is very true for cutting edge work, which has an element of research to it. So take what I say with a pinch of salt - so the PCB will be finished this month. Then it will probably be September before I get the prototypes. Then how long to get it working? I won't do test recordings till its perfect, so we are looking at the end of the year when tracks will get published - at the earliest. I am currently thinking of things to record, and the mic and equipment I need to do this.
> 
> Rob





Rob,

I don't know if there are any designers out there who share so openly and willingly what they do like you do, but your openness on the subject is the exact reason why I probably am gonna go for a Dave.


----------



## Mython

romaz said:


> Perhaps the biggest reason you will never see (or care to see) MQA support on a Chord DAC:  DAVINA


 
  
  
 Yes, this has been my understanding, too, for some time, now.


----------



## Crgreen

For a numpty like me, can someone explain Davina?


----------



## Mython

Furthermore, although DAVINA has the potential to improve recordings for the entire digital-audio industry, I predict that DAVINA will massively increase sales of DAVE, because each will logically maximise the benefits of the other, up to the bleeding-edge of the state of the art.
  
  
_@ Rob_ - I think it's really wonderful that you are about to create something (in addition to the already-wonderful DAVE), the combination of which will create a zenith in your career which will positively affect _*the entire industry*_, enormously.


----------



## paulchiu

crgreen said:


> For a numpty like me, can someone explain Davina?


 
  
 Davina is Rob's ADC project.  Analog to digital converter.
 I think Rob started talking about it here:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1785#post_12376871
  
 Paul


----------



## Mython

crgreen said:


> .... can someone explain Davina?


 
  
 Are you familiar with the benefits of Rob's approach to DACs? For example, the improved accuracy they offer, in relation to reconstructing subtle timing details and transients?
  
 Even though Rob's DACs offer very impressive performance levels, in this regard, they can't fully overcome the limitations that exist in current ADC technology - so, if an analogue-to-digital converter in a mastering studio does a poor job of digitising music accurately, then no DAC currently available will be able to resolve all the timing errors created during the original digitising of the mastertape, in the mastering studio.
  
 Rob's ADC project is intended to overcome a large proportion of the errors occurring during digitisation, so that a DAC such as DAVE will then have maximum opportunity to do perform its function to a very high standard, in creating audio reproduction of maximum realism (and Rob is also intending to subsequently explore a project for digital amplification, but that's some way off, and only secondary to the ADC project).
  


Spoiler: Digital Power Amp project






rob watts said:


> The power amp prototype has been stuck on my desk waiting for me to test it for a year now. So my priorities this year is the amp and Davina.
> 
> Combining Dave with the amp using the digital outputs, I am eagerly anticipating, as I expect a huge increase in transparency - in short, it will eliminate the sound of a power amp, you will be left with the equivalence of just the sound of Dave driving loudspeakers directly.
> 
> Rob


 
  


  
  
  
*In no particular order*, and not directly pertaining to each other, here are some relevant quotes from Rob, about the DAVINA ADC project:
  


Spoiler: DAVINA ADC






rob watts said:


> u2nite said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Rob,John,
> ...


 
  
  


rob watts said:


> Hmm, lots of questions today!
> 
> Firstly, I have not said that 44.1/16 bit is better than HD PCM (its easily better than DSD IMHO - and this is an important requirement - on my DAC's). Probably the best recordings I have is 192/24 - and generally, all things being equal, higher SR is preferable - but not by much. In principle - and note I mean in an ideal world - 44.1/16 is capable of very much better performance than we currently get - with a large enough tap length, you can recover the timing perfectly, assuming the ADC has zero (and I do mean zero) aliasing which currently the pro ADC's do not have - its as bad as -6dB!. Moreover, properly dithered 16 bit is capable of perfectly resolving an infinitely small signal - if you take an infinite period of time to do the FFT or correlation. So the format is capable of, again in principle, of perfectly reproducing the original timing information and perfectly capable of accurately reproducing very small signals.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


rob watts said:


> One of the good things about the Davina project is that I will have clear answers to these problems.
> 
> Firstly, timing. The problem that Dave is solving, and its a very important problem only due to sampling the music, is the reconstruction of the timing of transients. Now a bandwidth limited signal (that is zero output at 22.05 kHz and above), if you use an infinite tap FIR filter, with a sinc function for the coefficients, would *perfectly *recover the missing waveform that was within the ADC before it was sampled. So if we have a DAC that has an interpolation filter that was "good enough" - that is double the taps and you hear no difference, and halve the time from one OP to the next and you still hear no change - then we will be left with a perfect reconstruction filter, and the DAC will re-create the signal effectively perfectly before it was sampled. What we will hear is the bandwidth limited signal. Now my question is - will bandwidth limiting within the ADC change the SQ? This I will find out from Davina, and I can test this without using decimation, so I will know this aspect for sure.
> 
> ...


 
  


rob watts said:


> mmerrill99 said:
> 
> 
> > Rob, can I ask your thoughts on the distortions in digital audio itself - I think you touched on it before when you mentioned the idea of brain burn-in i.e. that the brain has to accommodate to the new types of distortions that have been introduced as a result of digital audio?
> ...


 
  
  


  
  
 .


----------



## Crgreen

I see, so it's primarily a technology which engineers can use to produce better digital recordings?


----------



## Mython

crgreen said:


> I see, so it's primarily a technology which engineers can use to produce better digital recordings?


 
  
 Yes.
  
 And (depending in what hardware format and on what pricing structure the ADC is eventually released) it may also be a viable option for audiophiles wishing to convert their own vinyl collections to a worthwhile-sounding digital format.


----------



## Crgreen

And such recordings will be compatable with MQA, which if I've understood it correctly, is a transfer and playback protocol?


----------



## Mython

crgreen said:


> And such recordings will be compatable with MQA, which if I've understood it correctly, is a transfer and playback protocol?


 
  
 In what _manner_ do you mean 'compatible with MQA'?


----------



## rkt31

more than vinyl, the Davina may give a new life to old master tapes. you may see several reissues of the classic albums depending how many music labels approach chord.


----------



## romaz

rkt31 said:


> more than vinyl, the Davina may give a new life to old master tapes. you may see several reissues of the classic albums depending how many music labels approach chord.


 
 I was listening to reel-to-reel yesterday in a 2-channel Audio Note setup worth more >$200k and it soundly beat the Audio Note CD transport + DAC (>$30k) that was part of the system.
  
 The problem is the lack of titles.  You can buy some here but notice how many are available:
  
 https://www.discogs.com/sell/list?page=1&format=Reel-To-Reel


----------



## Crgreen

mython said:


> In what _manner_ do you mean 'compatible with MQA'?




The ordinary sense the word - there's no conflict bewetween the two technologies: recordings made using one can be played back with the other. Hopefully, my question is clear.


----------



## Rob Watts

Once Davina PCB layout is done, I will post some more about the project, and what I want to do technically with it.
  
 Davina is really a technology proof of concept, as the pro audio market for a simple 2 ch. ADC is limited. If Davina works as hoped, then I will design an 8 ch interface (that's 8 ADC's and 8 DAC's in one unit) and this would then be the unit that the pro audio market would use.
  
 I don't have an idea about how well the ADC tech will do commercially, and in one sense I don't care, as its more about achieving completely transparent performance than anything else. My overriding ambition is to be able to reproduce the sensation of depth accurately; I want to be able to reproduce a sound that was recorded 200 feet away, and it sounds exactly as if it was 200 feet away on reproduction. This ability to perceive space accurately is something that reproduced audio is clearly unable to do compared to real sounds in a real space.
  
 I have no experience on recording; fortunately Chord has two guys that have a recording/pro audio background, and they have been providing advice for me on recording with simple two channel. Once the initial tests are done, then we have some pro audio specialists that will be working with us on evaluation and making their own recordings.
  
 Another aspect that interests me is straightforward measurements - Dave already pushes the measurement envelope, so being able to do much better measurements from the ADC will be very useful.
  
 Rob


----------



## Mython

crgreen said:


> mython said:
> 
> 
> > In what _manner_ do you mean 'compatible with MQA'?
> ...


 
  
  
 Yes; in the sense of not actually conflicting with one another, they are compatible.
  
 But, in the sense of fully utilising one another, they are not.
  
 i.e. as I understand it, an MQA-encoded music file will play back just fine on one of Rob's DACs, but Rob's DACs (or any other non-MQA DAC on planet earth) will not perform the additional MQA-intended function of calibrating the DAC according to the unique configuration metadata embedded within an MQA file.
  
 And, in turn, a music file created by Rob's DAVINA ADC (or any other non-MQA audio ADC on planet earth) will play back just fine on an MQA DAC, but will not contain any embedded configuration metadata with which to perform the additional MQA-intended function of calibrating the MQA DAC on a file-by-file basis, during playback.
  
  
 .


----------



## Crgreen

It was really to that last paragraph hat my question was addressed, and although I'm no expert, I wonder whether it's entirely correct. Davina will be an ADC, resulting in (hopefully) a more accurate digital representation of the analogue signal. Like any digital file, surely whether that data is then MVQ encoded for transfer and playback purposes is a quite separate matter, down to engineers, producers, labels, artists etc. I'd assumed any digital sound file could be subjected to MVQ - in other words, Davina and MVQ address quite distinct issues: analogue to digital on the one hand, digital back to analogue on the other. I thought MVQ was not a form of ADC but was applied to digital data. That's certainly the impression given by a number of the articles I've read and musical examples contained in reviews. But, as is often the case, I might have got it entirely wrong


----------



## Mython

crgreen said:


> It was really to that last paragraph hat my question was addressed, and although I'm no expert, I wonder whether it's entirely correct. Davina will be an ADC, resulting in (hopefully) a more accurate digital representation of the analogue signal. Like any digital file, surely whether that data is then MVQ encoded for transfer and playback purposes is a quite separate matter, down to engineers, producers, labels, artists etc. I'd assumed any digital sound file could be subjected to MVQ - in other words, Davina and MVQ address quite distinct issues: analogue to digital on the one hand, digital back to analogue on the other. I thought MVQ was not a form of ADC but was applied to digital data. That's certainly the impression given by a number of the articles I've read and musical examples contained in reviews. But, as is often the case, I might have got it entirely wrong


 
  
  
 Well, you make an interesting point, there. My remarks were holding the assumption of no-one interjecting anything further to the equation (jn-between ADC and DAC) than Rob / Chord, since Rob's DAC approach seemingly is a little at-odds with the DAC approach required by MQA (see Romaz's earlier remarks, for example), but I suppose what you propose might be possible. An MQA-motivated third-party might be able to use the raw PCM data from Rob's ADC to create MQA files for MQA-DACs.
  
  
 I'm actually interested to hear Rob's thoughts on that one!
  
  
 .


----------



## AndrewOld

rob watts said:


> Once Davina PCB layout is done, I will post some more about the project, and what I want to do technically with it.
> 
> Davina is really a technology proof of concept, as the pro audio market for a simple 2 ch. ADC is limited. If Davina works as hoped, then I will design an 8 ch interface (that's 8 ADC's and 8 DAC's in one unit) and this would then be the unit that the pro audio market would use.
> 
> ...




Ever thought about active digital crossovers using your DAC designs? How much of your hard work is being lost in other people's analogue crossovers? I am sure a really good speaker manufacturer - ATC or PMC for example - would be happy to collaborate.


----------



## Beolab

@romaz 

Can you give us an update on your impressions on the alu HF RCA box prototype and when its going to be able for ordering / price point?


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> @romaz
> 
> Can you give us an update on your impressions on the alu HF RCA box prototype and when its going to be able for ordering / price point?


 
 I met with Rick Schultz at The High End Show in Newport, California two weekends ago and he is planning to definitely move forward with this device.  The prototype I have will be the entry-level device with a target price of $300 USD.  There will be an intermediate product for about $1,000 and a very high-end product for people like you for about $3,000.  As he develops these higher-end prototypes, I will have a chance to hear them and I will report back.  What I can say having lived with this prototype for a couple of months now is that it not only significantly improves clarity and detail but it also improves control.  As you have a Wells Headtrip, you understand that this kind of "muscle" amp tends to add a certain authority or grip, even at low listening levels and I am experiencing something very similar.  The DAVE now feels like a muscle amp in this sense and yet it retains all the finesse, nuance and texture that it has always had.
  
 Right now, the target date to have a product to sell will be January 2017 and will probably be introduced at CES.  Rick is currently working on design of the chassis and it should be considerably be more attractive that the prototype that I have.
  
 I brought the prototype I am testing with me to The High End Show in Newport the other week and it gave me a chance to allow other people to listen to it including @bacon333, people from Audeze as well as Woo Audio and the consensus was very favorable across the board.  I believe this will be an easy recommendation once it becomes commercially available.
  
 Have you had a chance to try any of their other products yet?  The sound improvement should be very similar.


----------



## Beolab

Sounds Interesting! 

Keep us updated ! 

Unfortunately not, i figure if i should sign up for distribute the brand here in Scandinavia maybe, but i need som testing samples first .


----------



## paulchiu

For those in the states looking to buy a DAVE. You could get a large discount if Brexit pass later this month. The Pound can fall to 1.2 from the current 1.45

Paul


----------



## Mython

paulchiu said:


> For those in the states looking to buy a DAVE. You could get a large discount if Brexit pass later this month. The Pound can fall to 1.2 from the current 1.45
> 
> Paul


 
  
 I wouldn't hold your breath on that.


----------



## yellowblue

I just got my microRendu and installed it without problems and got it working with my Dave. I had the Sonicorbiter before and wondered if it was worth the uprgrade. Already after 15 minutes listening time I can say: it is worth the upgrade! Spacial depth is better, voices sounding more natural and real. Slightly more details as well. We will se how it sounds after some burn-in. 
  
 I am powering the microRendu with an iPower. I have this MCRU power-supply (with some mods) on order
  
 http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/power-supplies/1313-regulated-linear-power-supply-for-sonore-microrendu.html
  
 and hope it will be an audible upgrade.


----------



## rkt31

micro rendition has it's own os ? can it play files own it's own ? does it require to be connected to a pc ? though not owning dave right now but may buy whenever have enough funds. how will it do with a windows tab with a good usb cable and audioquest jitterbug in between?


----------



## rkt31

rendition=rendu ( auto correction by cell phone )


----------



## shuttlepod

yellowblue said:


> I just got my microRendu and installed it without problems and got it working with my Dave. I had the Sonicorbiter before and wondered if it was worth the uprgrade. Already after 15 minutes listening time I can say: it is worth the upgrade! Spacial depth is much better, voices sounding more natural and real. Slightly more details as well. We will se how it sounds after some burn-in.
> 
> I am powering the microRendu with an iPower. I have this MCRU power-supply (with some mods) on order
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yellowblue, please keep us posted on your adventures with the microRendu, particularly any sonic differences you experience with different power supplies. There are a few of us waiting to pull the trigger after others report on their experiences. What mode are you using with the microRendu and do you plan to experiment with different modes? Could you describe your signal chain to the DAVE? Thanks!


----------



## yellowblue

shuttlepod said:


> Yellowblue, please keep us posted on your adventures with the microRendu, particularly any sonic differences you experience with different power supplies. There are a few of us waiting to pull the trigger after others report on their experiences. What mode are you using with the microRendu and do you plan to experiment with different modes? Could you describe your signal chain to the DAVE? Thanks!


 
 The signal chain is quiet simple. Home computer as Roon core via NAS > microRendu > JCat USB-cable > Dave > HD800 (with SD mod).
  
 I will keep you informed how the MCRU sounds. It comes with a silver cable-mod and a fuse-mod.


----------



## ecwl

Hmmm. You guys are killing me with your talk of microRendu. I need to become a Luddite and not go online to Head-Fi and Computer Audiophile forums. 

To replicate my current music renderer/server capabilities and UI, I would need to pay for microRendu (US$690), Roon (US$500), HQPlayer (Cdn$190) and spend the time to set everything up on my main desktop PC. Very tempting. Maybe I need to download Roon to play around with it on my desktop and headphone/Mojo rig to try things out before making the leap. And to think I just spent $20 to upgrade JRiver...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheAttorney

yellowblue said:


> The signal chain is quiet simple. Home computer as Roon core via NAS > microRendu > JCat USB-cable > Dave > HD800 (with SD mod).


 
  
 To follow on from a parallel thread, the signal chain must be a bit more complicated than that, because there simply _has _to be a router in between computer and mR.
  
 If that isn't the case, then I'm interested to know how you achieved it.


----------



## shuttlepod

ecwl said:


> Hmmm. You guys are killing me with your talk of microRendu. I need to become a Luddite and not go online to Head-Fi and Computer Audiophile forums.
> 
> To replicate my current music renderer/server capabilities and UI, I would need to pay for microRendu (US$690), Roon (US$500), HQPlayer (Cdn$190) and spend the time to set everything up on my main desktop PC. Very tempting. Maybe I need to download Roon to play around with it on my desktop and headphone/Mojo rig to try things out before making the leap. And to think I just spent $20 to upgrade JRiver...
> 
> ...


 

 Giving Roon a try would be a good first step. Maybe it won't be the cat's meow for you. Then again . . .


----------



## yellowblue

theattorney said:


> To follow on from a parallel thread, the signal chain must be a bit more complicated than that, because there simply _has _to be a router in between computer and mR.
> 
> If that isn't the case, then I'm interested to know how you achieved it.


 
 Yes, a router is needed. Didn´t name that because I thought this was clear when I wrote "NAS".


----------



## Beolab

A ship came loded with some Transparent Ref 5 XLR cables today, tuned and impedance matched for the DAVE / new SimAudio Moon 600i Amp and drive it Bypass from the pre-amp to not lose any transparency. 

I have both the XLR and the RCA connected btw the dave and amp, is that any drawbacks for overheating with them connected at the same time for the DAVE @Rob Watts ? 

First impressions of the Transparent Ref 5 cable is you lose some transparency and clarity resolution going balanced with DAVE as already stated from Rob because of the extra OP amps in the signal path , but the sound is more composed, and have more meat to the bone and feel heavier and more smooth than single ended. 

The diffrence are fairly subtle, but there is a slight diffrence in the presentation and the singel ended sound a little thin and slightly sharper and jagged, but the XLRś is a bit too heavely bassy sounding but in the same time very smooth and nice. 

Will also try out with a set of Kimber KS-1036 XLRś in the next step, so the hunt for the best sound in the world from a Headphones continues  










QBD76HDSD special edition for the livingroom :


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> I have both the XLR and the RCA connected btw the dave and amp, is that any drawbacks for overheating with them connected at the same time for the DAVE @Rob Watts ?


 
  
 I guess if you were to do a careful AB test you would hear a small difference, but the size of the difference would be small, and not musically important. If there was a difference it would only be due to extra earthing, for sure Dave won't mind the tiny extra loading.
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

Thanks Rob for you quick answer in the middle of the night 

I find the single ended to be superior over XLR because of the extra OP ampś i can hear the transparency / resolution loss, but the sound gets calmer and smoother with more meat to the tone, but not for reference listening, just for HighEnd signature listening purpose , so i think the Ref 5ś go back and i switch for a Ref 5 RCA instead maybe, or the Kimber.


----------



## holeout

Agree on RCAs being a touch more transparent over XLRs, but difference is subtle. I did my initial 500 hours of listening with RCA and when I first switched to balance out I did noticed a very slight congestion and brightness in the upper mids. The situation improved after 100 hours mark and faded after 200 hours which suggest the extra opamps do need some time to settle. I'm using Gryphon pre/power amps which circuitry is optimized for balanced connections and in my setup going with XLRs resulted in better body and dynamic contrast with a bigger and more 3D sound stage.,  For my 2 channel setup, I'm settling on XLRs. It's best to test out both outputs over time and hear how the rest of your system respond and pick your preference.


----------



## Beolab

holeout said:


> Agree on RCAs being a touch more transparent over XLRs, but difference is subtle. I did my initial 500 hours of listening with RCA and when I first switched to balance out I did noticed a very slight congestion and brightness in the upper mids. The situation improved after 100 hours mark and faded after 200 hours which suggest the extra opamps do need some time to settle. I'm using Gryphon pre/power amps which circuitry is optimized for balanced connections and in my setup going with XLRs resulted in better body and dynamic contrast with a bigger and more 3D sound stage.,  For my 2 channel setup, I'm settling on XLRs. It's best to test out both outputs over time and hear how the rest of your system respond and pick your preference.




Its hard to compare because of the 20db diffrence in volume 12 v XLR vs 6 v RCA on the DAVE . 

But i feel the 7000€ Transparent are slight fuller and richer but losing in the upper end to my RCA Chord Indigo Array , so i will loan the Kimber KS-1136 and Nordost Odin XLR or RCA dito and see what happens. 

Having the TP Ref 5 on burn in now at home and we will see what happens tonight after 24 houers. They did have about 100 h on then when i picked then up yesterday according to the Transparent dealer .


----------



## TheAttorney

beolab said:


> But i feel the 7000€ Transparent are slight fuller and richer but losing in the upper end to my RCA Chord Indigo Array , so i will loan the Kimber KS-1136 and Nordost Odin XLR or RCA dito and see what happens.


 
 Having owned a few Transparent Audio cables in the past (not the latest Generation 5's, which have priced themselves off my radar) - I would say that what you're hearing is the typical TA house sound irrespective of XLR or RCA.
  
 As I had posted before, my TA Ref (Gen 4) RCA had that overall house sound, which was very pleasant, but was easily beaten for detail, openness and transparency by my TQ Black Diamond XLR's, from DAVE into my balanced BHSE. And I did volume match them by sound meter at one point. So I don't think you're hearing the true difference between XLR and RCA in this particular comparison.   
  
 Irrespective of it's house sound, any cable priced as high as the Gen V really needs to blow you away compared to an Indigo-priced cable - in order to earn its keep.   .


----------



## Kakki

rob watts said:


> Break-in - about 10 minutes.
> 
> Well yes that was to get your attention, and my honest answer is I do not know for sure, except that brain break-in is by far the biggest factor. In October I did an update to the code, getting ready for final production. This update had a SQ change, and it was not small.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Rob, did you have any chance to listen to and compare the old / new Dave units?
 I'm interested to know the test result and would appreciate if you would share your findings.
  
 I personally never noticed brain break-in effect but that may be because we rarely have a chance to strictly compare old / new units and also such a effect may happen gradually in long term.


----------



## Rob Watts

Oh no I ran out of time. I managed to measure it last Friday and it was absolutely identical - within 0.3 dB for THD and noise at 2.5v RMS. But time ran out for me to listen to it, as I am in Asia at the moment. When I get back in July I will listen to it.
  
 I must say that black looks gorgeous...
  
 Rob


----------



## Crgreen

I've used balanced and SE on Dave into balanced pre-amp and have a preference for XLR connections, though give the different fixed output levels, comparisons cab be tricky. Also, I don't have the bat-like hearing of others, able to hear the effect of even the smallest component


----------



## Kakki

rob watts said:


> Oh no I ran out of time. I managed to measure it last Friday and it was absolutely identical - within 0.3 dB for THD and noise at 2.5v RMS. But time ran out for me to listen to it, as I am in Asia at the moment. When I get back in July I will listen to it.
> 
> I must say that black looks gorgeous...
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Rob, thank you for your update! and hope you have a safe trip. I look forward to having your test result hopefully in July.
  
 For the color, I just ordered a silver Dave last week...!!
 Yes, it looks definitely gorgeous in black. But I was too nervous about having scratches on the surface especially around the phone jack.
 (I thought scratches are more obvious on black and silver still looks very special, in my opinion.)
  
 Do you have any comment on the color selection?


----------



## Beolab

theattorney said:


> Having owned a few Transparent Audio cables in the past (not the latest Generation 5's, which have priced themselves off my radar) - I would say that what you're hearing is the typical TA house sound irrespective of XLR or RCA.
> 
> As I had posted before, my TA Ref (Gen 4) RCA had that overall house sound, which was very pleasant, but was easily beaten for detail, openness and transparency by my TQ Black Diamond XLR's, from DAVE into my balanced BHSE. And I did volume match them by sound meter at one point. So I don't think you're hearing the true difference between XLR and RCA in this particular comparison.
> 
> Irrespective of it's house sound, any cable priced as high as the Gen V really needs to blow you away compared to an Indigo-priced cable - in order to earn its keep.   .




The funny thing is i have to look at the amp from time to time when i switch btw the inputs if i listening to Balanced or Singel ended, so there is not so big diffrence, and not worth the price of 7000€ against the stone aged built Chord Indigo 2000€ RCAś. 

I would say it is like 5% diffrence and a slight more composed sound stage, but it is very even.


----------



## Beolab

kakki said:


> Rob, did you have any chance to listen to and compare the old / new Dave units?
> I'm interested to know the test result and would appreciate if you would share your findings.
> 
> I personally never noticed brain break-in effect but that may be because we rarely have a chance to strictly compare old / new units and also such a effect may happen gradually in long term.




Hi i think im the only one who have compared a 1000 houers DAVE to a new one with 1 houers break in as i have already posted a couple of pages back, but i do not think so many did read it, because it was not any reaction at all !???!!?? 

But the result was with my bat hearing not a Single difference at all!! 

Totally dead race btw the old DAVE and New DAVE, after a few hours / days of comparing. 

So it is our brains of some of us that do the break in, not my brain, but for some.


----------



## shuttlepod

beolab said:


> Hi i think im the only one who have compared a 1000 houers DAVE to a new one with 1 houers break in as i have already posted a couple of pages back, but i do not think so many did read it, because it was not any reaction at all !???!!??
> 
> But the result was with my bat hearing not a Single difference at all!!
> 
> ...


 

 For what it's worth, I didn't really hear much, if any, change when I auditioned a DAVE a few months back and put over 200 hours on it. My new DAVE probably has 80-100 hours on it, and I haven't noticed any differences. To my ears, it sounded fabulous after half an hour and that impression has not changed.


----------



## Beolab

Our brains trick us every second =) 

I have not ever believed in burn in, just a good warm up for 1-3 hours is my recipe of most of my things i own, because i have dun extensive testing and could not note the great burn in holy grail from my memory or my notes i have dun during the evaluation ever. 

I i got sharp hearing and good testing components


----------



## shuttlepod

beolab said:


> Our brains trick us every second =)
> 
> I have not ever believed in burn in, just a good warm up for 1-3 hours is my recipe of most of my things i own, because i have dun extensive testing and could not note the great burn in holy grail from my memory or my notes i have dun during the evaluation ever.
> 
> I i got sharp hearing and good testing components


 

 Well, I have to say my experience with burn-in is that it is very real with certain components, and I am 100% confident that I'm not confusing brain burn-in with the real thing. One example:  my Ayre QB9 DAC, when originally purchased in 2009, sounded pretty awful for the first 50-60 hours and just meh for another 50-60 hours. It kept evolving well past 200 hours. That did not surprise anyone from Ayre. With DAVE, I knew immediately (within the first minute or two after I had adjusted my settings in Roon correctly) that this was the best digital I'd ever heard in my system, and not by a small margin. And this was an absolutely brand new machine unpacked for the first time since it had left Kent.


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> Hi i think im the only one who have compared a 1000 houers DAVE to a new one with 1 houers break in as i have already posted a couple of pages back, but i do not think so many did read it, because it was not any reaction at all !???!!??
> 
> But the result was with my bat hearing not a Single difference at all!!
> 
> ...


 
 Yes I would be very surprised if Dave did have any significant break in, but brain break in is very real - to me at least.
  
 But break in can be a major hardware issue. In the 1980's my products did suffer from break in, and in the early 90's my DAC's (PDM or DSD DAC's not pulse array) were very variable.
  
 This can be caused by a number of issues:
  
 1. Distortion varying with temperature. The most obvious way is output stage bias currents drifting with temperature, but there are a host of other effects too.
  
 2. Electrolytic capacitors - these have significant break-in with impedance, linearity, and leakage current varying with time - they often need 90 days on to maximise performance.
  
 3. RF noise - this can vary with time too, and in particular can give the effect of ones system varying in SQ over time. In the early 80's my system only sounded at its best at 2AM with the lights out. Once I understood the problems of RF noise and eliminated the issue then SQ got a lot better and it became consistent - it did not matter what time of day, it sounded at its best.
  
 With DAC's there are a host of issues to contend with, and there is a very strong link with consistency of measured performance and SQ. In the early 90's, the DSD DAC's I was making at the time were a nightmare from a consistency point of view. Each one measured a bit differently, each one sounded slightly different. That's why I got into designing my own DAC technology, as the only way of solving these issues was to take control over every element within a DAC and to apply solutions that would eliminate these issues. So for example - normal chip DAC's have a reference voltage pin that you have to decouple with an electrolytic to get low noise. The reference circuitry is built inside the chip, so you can't solve this issue. But if you use a discrete DAC, you can design your own reference circuitry that innately has insignificant noise, so then you do not need an electrolytic to decouple something that is not really good enough in the first place.
  
 I was actually chatting to Matt (production director Chord) about the issue of Dave having such low THD and noise - and the THD and noise at 2.5v RMS OP was -127.3 dB and -127.5 dB for the two DAC's, and every Dave they measure is exactly the same. Moreover, it does not matter if its cold or hot, old or new, with horrible noisy jittery sources, it always measures the same. And each one sounds the same when it goes through their listening tests.
  
 So yes break in can be a very real problem. But when it happens, it supplies a very real opportunity for the designer - if you can find out what the issue is, then you can work on fundamentally to eliminate it - then you end up with even better sound quality, and no break in or inconsistency too.
  
 Rob


----------



## stvc

yellowblue said:


> The signal chain is quiet simple. Home computer as Roon core via NAS > microRendu > JCat USB-cable > Dave > HD800 (with SD mod).
> 
> I will keep you informed how the MCRU sounds. It comes with a silver cable-mod and a fuse-mod.


 

 I'm interested with the MRCU too, much cheaper than the *Signature Series Power Supply * , do you think they are comparable and would benefit to Dave?


----------



## yellowblue

stvc said:


> I'm interested with the MRCU too, much cheaper than the *Signature Series Power Supply * , do you think they are comparable and would benefit to Dave?


 
 I hope the MRCU will come next week. I will report after some burn in.


----------



## Kakki

beolab said:


> Hi i think im the only one who have compared a 1000 houers DAVE to a new one with 1 houers break in as i have already posted a couple of pages back, but i do not think so many did read it, because it was not any reaction at all !???!!??
> 
> But the result was with my bat hearing not a Single difference at all!!
> 
> ...


 
 Beolab, apologies, I read your post with very much interest but was waiting for Rob's final confirmation on the subject...
  
 I trust your bat hearing and also feel that you're right as I experienced no break-in with my Hugo. I will test my Dave once it arrives also.


----------



## Beolab

kakki said:


> Beolab, apologies, I read your post with very much interest but was waiting for Rob's final confirmation on the subject...
> 
> I trust your bat hearing and also feel that you're right as I experienced no break-in with my Hugo. I will test my Dave once it arrives also.




Its good to know that the industry standard are high , and they all sound equal.


----------



## Articnoise

rob watts said:


> Yes I would be very surprised if Dave did have any significant break in, but brain break in is very real - to me at least.
> 
> But break in can be a major hardware issue. In the 1980's my products did suffer from break in, and in the early 90's my DAC's (PDM or DSD DAC's not pulse array) were very variable.
> 
> ...


 
  

 Yes some components, and especially some audio grade caps, can take very long time before sounding their best.

  

 Do DAVE have any caps in the audio signal chain?


----------



## izzard1982

articnoise said:


> Yes some components, and especially some audio grade caps, can take very long time before sounding their best.
> 
> 
> 
> Do DAVE have any caps in the audio signal chain?


----------



## Rob Watts

articnoise said:


> Yes some components, and especially some audio grade caps, can take very long time before sounding their best.
> 
> 
> 
> Do DAVE have any caps in the audio signal chain?


 
 There are no coupling caps at all, it is all DC coupled.
  
 To maintain DC offset to under 100uV at the OP, a digital DC servo is used. This is filtered digitally, so no possibility of servo distortion can upset the SQ. Indeed, there is no change in SQ when the digital DC servo is switched out completely.
  
 There are some filter caps in the signal path, but these are very small value polypropylene and do not break in - they have zero voltage coefficient of C, and very temperature stable.
  
 Rob


----------



## Articnoise

rob watts said:


> There are no coupling caps at all, it is all DC coupled.
> 
> To maintain DC offset to under 100uV at the OP, a digital DC servo is used. This is filtered digitally, so no possibility of servo distortion can upset the SQ. Indeed, there is no change in SQ when the digital DC servo is switched out completely.
> 
> ...


 
  

 Thanks Rob. I find it very interesting that DC coupled caps are thought by you and some others to be less in the way (less coloration) than coupling caps. If I haven’t misunderstood you will say. Maybe stupid question to ask you, but do you know why so many well-known manufactures still use coupled caps? I mean some put in caps that cost thousands of dollar to reduce the negative impact they have. Is it because DAVE has a digital preamp that allow you to use DC coupled caps in the signal path instead of coupled caps, or other reasons?     

  

 If caps are as big limitation in SQ as I interpret that it can have, it may have a lot to do why so many here, that have heard it, like it so much. I have not heard the DAVE myself yet. I’m afraid to hear it before I have the found to buy it


----------



## ddanois

Really sorry if this has been covered in previous posts (I searched and couldn't find much) but can anyone provide a comparison of the DAVE to the PS Audio Directstream DAC. I'm considering a new DAC and would like to select one with the best possible quality for headphones (and for loudspeakers later). I have other great headphone amps, so that element is not up for consideration. I play 24/192 FLAC and DSD mostly within my library.
  
 Appreciate any experienced opinions.
  
 Thanks,
 Derek


----------



## bigfatpaulie

ddanois said:


> Really sorry if this has been covered in previous posts (I searched and couldn't find much) but can anyone provide a comparison of the DAVE to the PS Audio Directstream DAC. I'm considering a new DAC and would like to select one with the best possible quality for headphones (and for loudspeakers later). I have other great headphone amps, so that element is not up for consideration. I play 24/192 FLAC and DSD mostly within my library.
> 
> Appreciate any experienced opinions.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Out of interest, what draws you the Directstream?  
  
 I only ask becuase it's a DAC that would never make my short list (personally).


----------



## ddanois

Mostly having read reviews and speaking to a few owners.


----------



## romaz

ddanois said:


> Really sorry if this has been covered in previous posts (I searched and couldn't find much) but can anyone provide a comparison of the DAVE to the PS Audio Directstream DAC. I'm considering a new DAC and would like to select one with the best possible quality for headphones (and for loudspeakers later). I have other great headphone amps, so that element is not up for consideration. I play 24/192 FLAC and DSD mostly within my library.
> 
> Appreciate any experienced opinions.
> 
> ...


 
 I used to own the PS Audio DirectStream and sold it shortly after the Yale firmware was released last year.  I tried all the various firmware that were available as this DAC allowed you to go back and forth so that you could decide which presentation you liked the best.  In that sense, this DAC was a chameleon and consequently had somewhat of identity issue as you could choose the older firmware that was considerably darker or upgrade to the latest firmware that was tipped more to the treble but was also better resolved. It was almost like tube rolling.
  
 Ted Smith, the "Rob Watts" equivalent for PS Audio, is a brilliant man and a nice guy as well.  Like Rob, he is very active and helpful to answer questions on the PS Audio forum and he is a large reason for the success of PS Audio.  Like Rob, he very much thinks outside of the box but he and Rob have philosophical differences regarding their FPGA DACs and it will be readily evident once you take a listen.  Ted upsamples everything to DSD and as we know, Rob's DACs do not do that.  My DirectStream had a soft/smooth signature but lacked in detail.  It also sounded very flat and when this didn't improve when Yale came out, I realized it was time to move on.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

I guess the reason I ask is because DAVE seems to be pretty widely renowned as *the *PCM DAC right now.  DSD is its achilles heel which is where the DS is at it's best.  But if DSD is game, a 'chipless' Lampizator is likely easily king.


----------



## shuttlepod

bigfatpaulie said:


> I guess the reason I ask is because DAVE seems to be pretty widely renowned as *the *PCM DAC right now.  DSD is its achilles heel which is where the DS is at it's best.  But if DSD is game, a 'chipless' Lampizator is likely easily king.


 

 I don't disagree with bigfatpaulie. I would only add that DSD still sounds pretty damn good on the DAVE (better than it ever sounded on my Ayre QB-9 DSD, although to be fair Ayre is not known among DSD fans as a top DAC). High quality PCM recordings are truly amazing on DAVE, and PCM in general is pretty great. Unless DSD is the format you prefer and you have lots and lots of DSD recordings, I'd give DAVE a serious listen.


----------



## Rob Watts

articnoise said:


> Thanks Rob. I find it very interesting that DC coupled caps are thought by you and some others to be less in the way (less coloration) than coupling caps. If I haven’t misunderstood you will say. Maybe stupid question to ask you, but do you know why so many well-known manufactures still use coupled caps? I mean some put in caps that cost thousands of dollar to reduce the negative impact they have. Is it because DAVE has a digital preamp that allow you to use DC coupled caps in the signal path instead of coupled caps, or other reasons?
> 
> 
> 
> If caps are as big limitation in SQ as I interpret that it can have, it may have a lot to do why so many here, that have heard it, like it so much. I have not heard the DAVE myself yet. I’m afraid to hear it before I have the found to buy it


 
  
 OK I think perhaps you have misunderstood. There are two uses of capacitors (caps) - DC blocking caps, which prevent DC from flowing from one stage to another, and filter caps. DC blocking caps typically have a value range of 4.7 uF to 470 uF. These caps are electrolytic (small but suffer from lots of LF distortion, have large leakage currents and need time to form the dielectric hence break in) then you have tantalum which are about 10 times better than electrolytic's but more expensive. Then you have film and foil caps, and the best of these are PTFE (which are hideously expensive but lowest form of dielectric absorption and no distortion) then polypropylene (which have very low levels of dielectric absorption, and no distortion) then cheaper films that aren't as good.
  
 The problem with film and foil (apart from cost) is physical size, even for values as low as 4.7 uF and you simply can't get big values. The large size means much more noise pick-up. So with Dave I use NO coupling caps at all, everything is DC coupled. To remove the DC from the OP, I then use a servo. All conventional servos are analogue, and this means that the coupling cap is replaced with an integrator cap, which will still add distortion and noise when the trimming DC is added.
  
 So what I do is to take the output from the DC integrator, which has distortion from the integrator cap, and noise from the analogue integrator, then I use an ADC and feed this digital data back into the FPGA. The DC trimming data is then very heavily filtered digitally, so all of the noise and distortion is removed completely, so we end up with a very small very gently moving trimming data that is added to the noise shaper input, and when it gets to the analogue OP we end up with no DC. Now when Dave is first switched on, the DC servo acquires the data, and then writes to FLASH the actual value of the DC trim that is required so when you power Dave up again it starts up with the correct value. But even with this in place, it still takes 20 seconds for the system to remove the DC, and that's why there is a large turn on and off delay when you switch modes or turn on the unit.
  
 So the benefits of this rather complex system are that there is no DC coupling caps in the signal path at all, and this means zero extra low frequency distortion, and zero added noise. It also provides a DC blocking form when the music data has a DC offset without the use of a digital DC blocking filter (not easy to do perfectly transparently). It also means that I have eliminated the noise and distortion that the servo adds, because when I remove the DC trim inside the FPGA, I get no change in measurements or sound quality at all.
  
 I hope this clarifies, Rob


----------



## esimms86

So there's an ADC function sending digital data into the FPGA for eventual conversion to analogue again. Very cool!


----------



## mtoc

Rob, we wanna Dave with WCK ports (both in and out), that will be more suitable with some sources.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

mtoc said:


> Rob, we wanna Dave with WCK ports (both in and out), that will be more suitable with some sources.


 
  
  
 'We' wanna DAVE with WCK ports?  
  
*I* don't _want _that at all.
  
 Heck, I don't even know what a "WCK" port is.


----------



## Sunya

Word Clock output
  
 But since Dave jitter immunity is so good, there's no need for a Word Clock output to synchronize the source to Dave's clock. Plus, there aren't many digital sources with Word Clock inputs.


----------



## Rob Watts

I have produced DAC's and CD players in the past with WC inputs and outputs, and the system worked very well. Then the DAC 64 had a local effectively zero jitter clock and a large buffer, so you could eliminate source jitter.
  
 But the buffer was useless with video, so in 2000 I started on the path to eliminate the need of the buffer using a digital phase lock loop (DPLL). After about 6 or 7 years I perfected it, and now you can barely hear the difference between DPLL and using a local clock and buffer. Indeed, with what I know about source galvanic isolation, I think it would be a big backward step to use word clocks.
  
 And of course Dave using USB has full galvanic isolation and has the benefit of clocks being sourced from the DAC too and it works with video!
  
 Rob


----------



## Articnoise

esimms86 said:


> So there's an ADC function sending digital data into the FPGA for eventual conversion to analogue again. Very cool!


 
  

 Yes the more I learn about DAVE the more unorthodox and technical special it seems. 

  

 Roy informed earlier that Devialet use an ADC on its analog input. I thought it was a strange thing to do, but maybe they also are using it with DC coupling caps and to filter out distortion. Probably not the only reason I liked the Devialet better with the SOTA turntable than digital, but it sound really well this way nevertheless.


----------



## ecwl

I wonder if Articnoise and esimms86 are misunderstanding what Rob Watts is saying about ADC. There's no analog inputs for ADC into DAVE. I think Rob Watts is exclusively addressing the issue of how to handle DC offset and his approach is to avoid using DC blocking capacitors. As a result, he has to have a different way of measuring the DC offset and addressing it. And his approach is to use an ADC to measure the DC offset and then digitally correcting for the DC offset in the FPGA before sending the final digital signal to the pulse array DAC.


----------



## esimms86

ecwl said:


> I wonder if Articnoise and esimms86 are misunderstanding what Rob Watts is saying about ADC. There's no analog inputs for ADC into DAVE. I think Rob Watts is exclusively addressing the issue of how to handle DC offset and his approach is to avoid using DC blocking capacitors. As a result, he has to have a different way of measuring the DC offset and addressing it. And his approach is to use an ADC to measure the DC offset and then digitally correcting for the DC offset in the FPGA before sending the final digital signal to the pulse array DAC.


 

 I totally get the fact that there are no analog inputs for ADC into DAVE. The fact that there is an ADC function at all is what I find fascinating as further evidence of Rob taking a different approach to solving the digital noise issue with DAVE.


----------



## rkt31

although not owning dave right now but as a future buyer ( whenever i have enough funds ) , i have queries . i use a sub with my kef r300 which are kept close to wall with foam bungs in port. i use rca splitter to feed both sub and power amp from hugo. in case of dave what will be the better option, feeding power amp with rca out and feeding sub with xlr out or vice versa ? my sub is a powered sub . which option will give better transparency ?


----------



## Sunya

The XLRs are 6dB hoter than the RCAs so your sub must have adjustable sensitivity (an input attenuator) to compensate for these differences in output level.


----------



## AndrewOld

Has anyone tried an Intona USB isolator with a DAVE (or TT)? Does it work? Does it offer any benefit? Any thoughts or experiences would be welcome. Seems to me that cleaning up the USB signal can't be a bad idea.


----------



## paulchiu

andrewold said:


> Has anyone tried an Intona USB isolator with a DAVE (or TT)? Does it work? Does it offer any benefit? Any thoughts or experiences would be welcome. Seems to me that cleaning up the USB signal can't be a bad idea.


 
  
 Things like the Regen has a noticeable effect with Hugo and ZX2 players but with Chord Dave and Nagra HD DAC, the effects are minimal to none.
  
 Paul


----------



## rkt31

usb data can have jitter which is corrected by Dave. but usb data can also have some noise which may creep into the electronics. so a less noisy source can have some improvements with dave as reported by some members. so theoretically a usb reclocker is not required for dave. imho adding more active electronics around dave can have some minor negative effects so instead passively removing/blocking noise through usb cable may be a better idea with dave. imho try a single ferrite core near dave end on the usb cable and also use a audioquest jitterbug between usb port of pc and cable. contrary to what the name suggests jitterbug only removes noise from usb power passively (jitterbug does not require external power) and does not relcock data.


----------



## esimms86

Rob states emphatically that DAVE via USB has full galvanic isolation(see post #3384) so I don't see what the Intona would have to offer you in this case. That's 300 USD that you can spend on music instead.


----------



## Arpiben

esimms86 said:


> Rob states emphatically that DAVE via USB has full galvanic isolation(see post #3384) so I don't see what the Intona would have to offer you in this case. That's 300 USD that you can spend on music instead.


 
  
 I fully agree your point, but I still have a small doubt regarding the fact that, in my mind, in order to be fully efficient galvanic isolation has to be applied at both ends; i.e. Player/DAP output and DAC input.
  
 Otherwise the isolation at DAC input will not remove the jitter/noises/RFI eventual modulations generated at DAP Output.
  
 For sure DAVE has got other 'tricks/solutions' to remove those further ahead in data audio chain for removing them..
  
 If Rob or somebody else can elaborate/detail more this point I will aprreciate.
  
 Rgds


----------



## x RELIC x

arpiben said:


> I fully agree your point, but I still have a small doubt regarding the fact that, in my mind, in order to be fully efficient galvanic isolation has to be applied at both ends; i.e. Player/DAP output and DAC input.
> 
> Otherwise the isolation at DAC input will not remove the jitter/noises/RFI eventual modulations generated at DAP Output.
> 
> ...




This post, and subsequent posts on the same page, by Rob might help:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/2925#post_12577889




Spoiler: Rob on Jitter and RF






rob watts said:


> Agreed that jitter is not an issue with Dave; nor with any of my other DAC's. We can see this on the measured performance with Dave, as there simply are not any artefacts:
> 
> 
> 
> ...







Also, there's this very helpful summary of Rob's posts by romaz:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1395#post_12262339




Spoiler: Summary by Romaz






romaz said:


> If you guys are interested in a really good read, just check out all of Rob's posts -- you'll come out feeling a lot smarter. I've compiled some of Rob's comments that are among my favorites (if you are not able to locate certain comments I have attributed to Rob as comments he has publicly made on Head-Fi, it is because some of the comments were made privately to me). Some comments were made with respect to the Mojo but should apply equally to the DAVE. Consider some of his answers as best practices with the DAVE.
> 
> What is most important with the DAVE?
> 
> ...


----------



## Rob Watts

arpiben said:


> I fully agree your point, but I still have a small doubt regarding the fact that, in my mind, in order to be fully efficient galvanic isolation has to be applied at both ends; i.e. Player/DAP output and DAC input.
> 
> Otherwise the isolation at DAC input will not remove the jitter/noises/RFI eventual modulations generated at DAP Output.
> 
> ...


 
 This is a good question, and something I have been puzzling over myself - thrown into focus when I heard that my lap-top sounds a bit smoother on battery operation than with the PSU connected. By using batteries you are effectively double isolating, as it is no longer connected via the mains supply and the lap top ground is completely floating.
  
 Now we have two effects going on when you galvanically isolate; reduction in RF noise via ground loops, and the elimination of audio currents (signal related but distorted principally due to the massive change as all bit flip from 1 to zero as you cross through analogue zero).
  
 Now the galvanic isolation is not 100% as there is a residual 2pF coupling capacitance. At 1 kHz this represents 79 M ohms - so low frequency noise will be eliminated. But at 1 GHz its a much smaller 79 ohms - so is more significant and *potentially *a problem.
  
 So is the lap top isolation because Dave is getting noise via the mains, or is it through the 2pF galvanic isolation? 
  
 Well it occurred to me that I can test this out using Audioquest Jitter bug - which acts as an RF filter so that you filter the ground power and signal lines. Now if I can hear no difference via the jitter bug, then that suggests that the RF noise path is via the mains. If the jitter bug means that using it reduces the effect of battery isolation then its via the galvanic isolation.
  
 I am in Asia at the moment, and packed a Dave and a jitter bug, so as soon as Davina PCB is finished that is my next task.
  
 I will report back on the results. I should emphasis that we are talking quite small differences here, it is something you can only just hear with careful AB tests - its certainly not a big issue.
  
 Another point is another layer of galvanic isolation like the one in Dave at the source would not eliminate the problem - only half it. The 2pF becomes 1pF.... And the extra circuitry would create a bit more noise.
  
 Rob


----------



## Arpiben

rob watts said:


> This is a good question, and something I have been puzzling over myself - thrown into focus when I heard that my lap-top sounds a bit smoother on battery operation than with the PSU connected. By using batteries you are effectively double isolating, as it is no longer connected via the mains supply and the lap top ground is completely floating.
> 
> Now we have two effects going on when you galvanically isolate; reduction in RF noise via ground loops, and the elimination of audio currents (signal related but distorted principally due to the massive change as all bit flip from 1 to zero as you cross through analogue zero).
> 
> ...


 

 Gratefully Thanks.


----------



## AndrewOld

rob watts said:


> Another point is another layer of galvanic isolation like the one in Dave at the source would not eliminate the problem - only half it. The 2pF becomes 1pF.... And the extra circuitry would create a bit more noise.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Rob, there's another possibly useful device called an Intona High Speed USB Isolator. See here: http://intona.eu/en/products
  
 It apparently offers galvanic isolation, and rechecks the original data.
  
 Intona publish lots of measurements and technical information here:
  
 http://intona.eu/en/answer/1239
  
 http://intona.eu/en/answer/1245
  
 http://intona.eu/en/answer/1233
  
 I don't understand most of this, but I dare say you will!
  
 I would like to squeeze the last ounce of performance from my DAVE, which is utterly incredible I have to say, every day I listen to it I realise more how incredible it is, so I look forward to you getting to the bottom of your observations about running your laptop from batteries.


----------



## analogmusic

I think it is important to trust Rob Watts and not get particularly obsessive about these Galvanic isolation issues 
  
 After reading many hundred of pages I am somewhat still perplexed about how many people still don't quite understand what Hugo and Dave are really about.
  
 I'll only repeat what Rob has said many times below about listening fatigue being eliminated with his DACs
  
 Originally Posted by *Rob Watts* 


  
 Its a brain issue, and is (mostly) down to two technical problems - one being noise floor modulation, one being timing uncertainty. With timing uncertainty, when the sampled digital data is converted back to a continuous signal, the DAC creates timing errors. These timing errors then interfere with the brains ability to actual perceive the starting and stopping of notes - and when the brain can't easily recognise something, it has to work harder to make sense of what is going on. Its a bit like one being in a party trying to understand somebody speaking with a lot of noise - your brain has to work harder to understand the voice, and its tiring. The noise floor modulation problem, means that the brain has greater difficulty separating sounds out into individual entities. What people forget, as we take hearing for granted, is that the brain is processing the data from the ears, and separating things out into individual entities, and also putting a placement tag onto that entity. Noise floor modulation makes it more difficult for the brain to separate things out into individual entities, so the brain has to work harder to make sense of the music. And when it has to work harder, you get listening fatigue.
  
 Now the timing issue is a unique problem with digital audio, and noise floor modulation is about ten times a larger problem than with amplifiers, so you can see why listening fatigue is a particular problem with digital.
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

@Rob Watts

Just a curios question: 

Is there any scheduled plans to design a dedicated streamer for the DAVE in the future, who can take benefit of your groundbreaking technology?


----------



## esimms86

beolab said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> Just a curios question:
> 
> Is there any scheduled plans to design a dedicated streamer for the DAVE in the future, who can take benefit of your groundbreaking technology?




While I'm certain that Rob could work his usual musical magic in deserving a server to mate with DAVE, he's a man with a lot on his plate and I don't see where that's a priority of his right now. 

In the meantime, the microRendu with the Uptone Audio JS-2 power supply works wonders when connected to DAVE and likely any other DAC for that matter. The midbass(particularly separating the sound of one percussion instrument from another) and midrange(particularly as it applies to reproducing the sound of a piano or the human voice) are especially outstanding with the microRendu when connected to DAVE and even lesser DACS(e.g., the Auralc Vega and Geek Pulse Infinty SE in my home). Instrument decay with the microRendu brings the aforementioned DACS even closer to DAVE territory. I'm personally over the moon with the microRendu and DAVE. If you can afford it, a higher end power supply relative to the iFi 9v PS is well worth the money.


----------



## stvc

esimms86 said:


> While I'm certain that Rob could work his usual musical magic in deserving a server to mate with DAVE, he's a man with a lot on his plate and I don't see where that's a priority of his right now.
> 
> In the meantime, the microRendu with the Uptone Audio JS-2 power supply works wonders when connected to DAVE and likely any other DAC for that matter. The midbass(particularly separating the sound of one percussion instrument from another) and midrange(particularly as it applies to reproducing the sound of a piano or the human voice) are especially outstanding with the microRendu when connected to DAVE and even lesser DACS(e.g., the Auralc Vega and Geek Pulse Infinty SE in my home). Instrument decay with the microRendu brings the aforementioned DACS even closer to DAVE territory. I'm personally over the moon with the microRendu and DAVE. If you can afford it, a higher end power supply relative to the iFi 9v PS is well worth the money.


 

 Any reason you choose JS-2 PS over of the snore signature PS?


----------



## iDesign

rob watts said:


> This is a good question, and something I have been puzzling over myself - thrown into focus when I heard that my lap-top sounds a bit smoother on battery operation than with the PSU connected. By using batteries you are effectively double isolating, as it is no longer connected via the mains supply and the lap top ground is completely floating.
> 
> Now we have two effects going on when you galvanically isolate; reduction in RF noise via ground loops, and the elimination of audio currents (signal related but distorted principally due to the massive change as all bit flip from 1 to zero as you cross through analogue zero).
> 
> ...


 

 Interesting. Looking forward to your thoughts on the merits of the JitterBug.


----------



## maxh22

esimms86 said:


> While I'm certain that Rob could work his usual musical magic in deserving a server to mate with DAVE, he's a man with a lot on his plate and I don't see where that's a priority of his right now.
> 
> In the meantime, the microRendu with the Uptone Audio JS-2 power supply works wonders when connected to DAVE and likely any other DAC for that matter. The midbass(particularly separating the sound of one percussion instrument from another) and midrange(particularly as it applies to reproducing the sound of a piano or the human voice) are especially outstanding with the microRendu when connected to DAVE and even lesser DACS(e.g., the Auralc Vega and Geek Pulse Infinty SE in my home). Instrument decay with the microRendu brings the aforementioned DACS even closer to DAVE territory. I'm personally over the moon with the microRendu and DAVE. If you can afford it, a higher end power supply relative to the iFi 9v PS is well worth the money.


 
 Out of curiosity, what differences have you heard when comparing the Vega and Dave? I'm very familar with the Vega sound so your input on how it compares would mean a lot.


----------



## esimms86

stvc said:


> Any reason you choose JS-2 PS over of the snore signature PS?




I already had one powering other devices(the Auralic Aries, and the Geek Pulse Infinity SE). I also had an idle iFi 9v power supply sitting around.

My understanding, however, is that the Sonore Signature PS won't put you to sleep LOL!


----------



## esimms86

maxh22 said:


> Out of curiosity, what differences have you heard when comparing the Vega and Dave? I'm very familar with the Vega sound so your input on how it compares would mean a lot.




DAVE wins out big time when it comes to improved soundstage, ultra (yet exceedingly musical) detail, instrument timbre, decay and timing. The Vega sounds more hi fi technicolor, kind of like goosing the color, brightness and tint controls on a flat screen at Best Buy. Don't get me wrong, the Vega sounds great but it's a little euphonic to my ears, especially when you compare it to DAVE. DAVE sounds great when setup for DSD but, to my ears, DSD is one area where the Vega might have a slight edge. For PCM the Vega is not even close.

The microRendu BTW makes red book sound closer to (though not generally indistinguishable from) hi res. In my experience this is true with all 3 DACS. Of course, this is IMHO and YMMV.


----------



## Beolab

esimms86 said:


> While I'm certain that Rob could work his usual musical magic in deserving a server to mate with DAVE, he's a man with a lot on his plate and I don't see where that's a priority of his right now.
> 
> In the meantime, the microRendu with the Uptone Audio JS-2 power supply works wonders when connected to DAVE and likely any other DAC for that matter. The midbass(particularly separating the sound of one percussion instrument from another) and midrange(particularly as it applies to reproducing the sound of a piano or the human voice) are especially outstanding with the microRendu when connected to DAVE and even lesser DACS(e.g., the Auralc Vega and Geek Pulse Infinty SE in my home). Instrument decay with the microRendu brings the aforementioned DACS even closer to DAVE territory. I'm personally over the moon with the microRendu and DAVE. If you can afford it, a higher end power supply relative to the iFi 9v PS is well worth the money.


 
  
 That was not an answer to my question from Rob, but yes i have a microRendu on order, just to try it out against my Auralic Aries and my Aurender W20 streamer.


----------



## stvc

esimms86 said:


> I already had one powering other devices(the Auralic Aries, and the Geek Pulse Infinity SE). I also had an idle iFi 9v power supply sitting around.
> 
> My understanding, however, is that the Sonore Signature PS won't put you to sleep LOL!


 

 Hah, definitely not, i thought you purchase this purposely to power up the Rendu. Thanks!


----------



## esimms86

stvc said:


> Hah, definitely not, i thought you purchase this purposely to power up the Rendu. Thanks!




I had a brief, cordial exchange with Barrows Worm at the Computer Audiophile forum. Barrows is the co-designer(along with Adrian Lebena) of the Sonore Signature Power Supply. Barrows informs me that the Sonore PS has better regulators than the JS-2 and also that the Sonore PS is designed specifically with only the microRendu in mind. The JS-2, on the other hand, is designed as a multipurpose high end power supply. In short, the JS-2 is great but the Sonore is the gold standard. If you have the funds and you are only looking to power the microRendu then the Sonore is the way to go. The JS-2 sells for 999 USD and the Sonore sells for 1399 USD(1589 with Synergistic Research fuses). HTH.


----------



## yellowblue

For us living in Europe the MCRU power supply for the mRendu and maybe the SBooster (they are to come with a 7,5V power supply sson) may be alternatives to the US high price power supplies.


----------



## paulchiu

paulchiu said:


> For those in the states looking to buy a DAVE. You could get a large discount if Brexit pass later this month. The Pound can fall to 1.2 from the current 1.45
> 
> Paul


 
  
 The Brits voted and the #Brexit folks won, to leave the EU.
  
 Overnight, the Pound fell to as low as 1.32 to the US Dollar.  That means for you guys waiting to get a DAVE, it's 12% cheaper than a day ago.  Some view the Pound will continue to fall from here.
  
 For those in Japan waiting to get a DAVE, even better news for you.  The YEN vs Pound is even stronger.
  
 Paul


----------



## Mython

paulchiu said:


> paulchiu said:
> 
> 
> > For those in the states looking to buy a DAVE. You could get a large discount if Brexit pass later this month. The Pound can fall to 1.2 from the current 1.45
> ...


 
  
  
 You were right, and I was wrong 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 As a Brit, I am disappointed that so many of my fellow countrymen/women are evidently unable to see the bigger picture, but, at this point in time, it is what it is, and good luck to all of you looking to obtain a DAVE, cheaper.


----------



## Dillan

I wonder if products from the UK will go up actually.. Interesting..


----------



## paulchiu

dillan said:


> I wonder if products from the UK will go up actually.. Interesting..


 
  
 It could but over the short term, probably unlikely.
  
 I remembered in the 80s when the Yen fall to 250 and most electronics toys were actually being marked down. I bought a Nakamichi Dragon during the summer of 1985 while vacationing in Akihabara, Tokyo.
 I was planning to visit Japan in August.  Now I am really eager to go.
  
 Paul


----------



## lovethatsound

mython said:


> You were right, and I was wrong
> 
> As a Brit, I am disappointed that so many of my fellow countrymen/women are evidently unable to see the bigger picture, but, at this point in time, it is what it is, and good luck to all of you looking to obtain a DAVE, cheaper.


As a Brit,I think most of my fellow countrymen/women DID see the big picture.I wish all of you good luck in getting a cheaper Dave,but be quick,because it won't be long before the pound back up.


----------



## paulchiu

mython said:


> You were right, and I was wrong
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Lol, we were all surprised.
 I did not hedge for the Brexit risk either.  The FTSE100 did rally hard after the -10% open and closed only 3% lower.
 The Pound did not recover much, if any.  I wonder what this will do to your economy.
  
 Yeah, I do hope the DAVE remains at $16,600 USD and folks here in the US can buy it cheaper due to the weaker Pound.  Great for those who waited.
  
 paul


----------



## paulchiu

lovethatsound said:


> As a Brit,I think most of my fellow countrymen/women DID see the big picture.I wish all of you good luck in getting a cheaper Dave,but be quick,because it won't be long before the pound back up.


 
  
 Yes, the pound's pounding may be short termed.  Crazy forecasts that we will get to 1.15 or 1.20 GBP/USD may never happen.
 Better get the 12% off a DAVE now in the US or 18% off a DAVE in Japan now.
  
 paul


----------



## DesiGuy79

So where would anyone buy Dave in USA? I am sure delears won't lower there price right away...


----------



## ecwl

I was talking to my local dealer. He guessed it almost depends on how much stock the distributor already paid for. It would be unlikely that the distributor would discount the existing stock until they're all sold to the dealer. After that, I guess the distributor could lower the MSRP for Canada and US. Of course, that doesn't stop the dealers from discounting but they would be the ones lowering their profit margins, not the distributor. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## nepherte

Don't forget the +- 20% import duty and customs processing fee I would have to pay as a citizen of the EU now that the U.K. leaves the EU. More than balances out the drop in the Pound - Euro exchange rate.


----------



## Mython

ecwl said:


> I was talking to my local dealer. He guessed it almost depends on how much stock the distributor already paid for. It would be unlikely that the distributor would discount the existing stock until they're all sold to the dealer. After that, I guess the distributor could lower the MSRP for Canada and US. Of course, that doesn't stop the dealers from discounting but they would be the ones lowering their profit margins, not the distributor.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 
  
 Ironically, I think I recall US dealers apparently spitting their pacifiers out, when Hugo was first released, and the exchange rate made Hugo slightly cheaper in the UK - but rather than allow that situation to continue, UK buyers were penalised with a price-hike, to placate any such tantrums in the US.
  
 It will be interesting, therefore, to see if it cuts both ways, or if US dealers decide they can have their cake _and _eat it, with £-sterling falling against the dollar.


----------



## ecwl

Hmmm... I think your scenario is much more likely. After all, the raw materials to make the DAC would become more expensive with the falling pound. So if the manufacturing cost of the Chord DAVE is going to increase in pound-sterling, it would make more sense for Chord DAVE to go up in price in the UK anyway but the resultant US prices would stay the same. Thanks for the insight about Chord Hugo. I wasn't aware of that.


----------



## DesiGuy79

Anyone bought it from UK and got it shipped to USA?


----------



## PhilW

desiguy79 said:


> Anyone bought it from UK and got it shipped to USA?


i hope not.


----------



## Kakki

paulchiu said:


> The Brits voted and the #Brexit folks won, to leave the EU.
> 
> Overnight, the Pound fell to as low as 1.32 to the US Dollar.  That means for you guys waiting to get a DAVE, it's 12% cheaper than a day ago.  Some view the Pound will continue to fall from here.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I bought Dave a month ago and paid the bill by YEN already but still waiting for it to come...
  
 Seems like I'm the most unfortunate Dave owner here!! Hahaha


----------



## Mython

kakki said:


> paulchiu said:
> 
> 
> > The Brits voted and the #Brexit folks won, to leave the EU.
> ...


 
  
  
 No DAVE-owner is unfortunate - you don't realise how lucky you are!


----------



## DesiGuy79

philw said:


> i hope not.



Any particular reason?


----------



## raypin

OT: mmm......wow, couldn't believe Brexit won. Over usd 2 trillion wiped off global equities overnight. The markets will punish the British economy. Pound will fall into a deep hole. With this, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland are next? Good for British exports, tourism......hopefully, the Chord Dave's price will remain in the foreseeable future.. My dealer has been egging me to upgrade from the Chord TT to the Dave. I might just do it if the price goes down. The Philippine peso just gained 7.2% relative to the British Pound.


----------



## Kakki

mython said:


> No DAVE-owner is unfortunate - you don't realise how lucky you are!




Mython, thank you for your reply.
Yes, you're right. I'm still lucky enough to be a Dave owner and I'm really glad about that. Looking forward to receiving my Dave soon.


----------



## paulchiu

first week with microRendu, it is what @romaz and others have discussed.  A well natural sound, a live experience not common with even the best home installations.  It makes you wonder if this is a sound with the artist playing just for you in your own personal space.
 With the MR, the DAVE has that buttery analog sound of my Western Electric 300B tubes.  Very much like the sound from a Nagra HD DAC (not using MR), but with greater overall dynamics.
 There is still the occasional network drop.  I am investigating this with Andrew Gillis.
  
  
 Using Curious links between MR and DAVE.
 DAVE hottest temp is near the headphone port - 101F
 MR runs around 104-107F
  

  
 paul


----------



## Mojo ideas

lovethatsound said:


> As a Brit,I think most of my fellow countrymen/women DID see the big picture.I wish all of you good luck in getting a cheaper Dave,but be quick,because it won't be long before the pound back up.


There will be one other issue at play in the longer term also. The issue of course is that virtually all of materials that Dave and indeed all of of our units are made from come from overseas. From the aluminium of our chassis to the Xilinx FPGAs all are imported so unless there is a rebound in the pounds value in a reasonable time. We may have to make some adjustments to our prices to compensate for any Materials excess costs. We will endeavour to hold our prices stable for as long as we can though. So your right now is a good time to buy.


----------



## stvc

esimms86 said:


> I had a brief, cordial exchange with Barrows Worm at the Computer Audiophile forum. Barrows is the co-designer(along with Adrian Lebena) of the Sonore Signature Power Supply. Barrows informs me that the Sonore PS has better regulators than the JS-2 and also that the Sonore PS is designed specifically with only the microRendu in mind. The JS-2, on the other hand, is designed as a multipurpose high end power supply. In short, the JS-2 is great but the Sonore is the gold standard. If you have the funds and you are only looking to power the microRendu then the Sonore is the way to go. The JS-2 sells for 999 USD and the Sonore sells for 1399 USD(1589 with Synergistic Research fuses). HTH.


 

 Just ordered 1


----------



## Rob Watts

paulchiu said:


> first week with microRendu, it is what @romaz and others have discussed.  A well natural sound, a live experience not common with even the best home installations.  It makes you wonder if this is a sound with the artist playing just for you in your own personal space.
> With the MR, the DAVE has that buttery analog sound of my Western Electric 300B tubes.  Very much like the sound from a Nagra HD DAC (not using MR), but with greater overall dynamics.
> There is still the occasional network drop.  I am investigating this with Andrew Gillis.
> 
> ...


 
 What source were you using before the microRendu?
  
 Rob


----------



## rgs9200m

I think a lot of Chord things come from Bluebird Music. I don't think they fiddle with prices based on currency fluctuations, as least that's what it looked like over the last year or so.


----------



## paulchiu

rob watts said:


> What source were you using before the microRendu?
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Before the MR, mainly with MACs and PCs.
 Macbook Pro with SSD internal.  iMac with SSD , Dell XPS 15 with SSD.  
 All using USBs.
  
 Did listened to an Aurender N10 with DAVE, again USB.
  
 The microRendu using any USB cable sounded better than all of the above.
  
 paul


----------



## Rob Watts

I have finally gotten round to listen to the AQ jitterbug, as a quest to understand where the RF noise problems from the source was coming from - via the mains or the USB.
  
 Firstly - very much - YMWV as RF noise is a funny thing and source noise may affect other parts of the system, so the findings here may well be different in other circumstances.
  
 So I did the tests with just a Win 10 lap-top (jRiver), Dave and pair of Nighthawks, in a hotel in Singapore. The idea was to try to evaluate whether the SQ improvements I heard when disconnecting the lap-top from mains and running off battery was from the USB connection or via the mains supply. Now Dave is galvanically isolated from LF and RF noise, and this makes a huge difference in SQ. But the galvanic isolation is not perfect as there exists a 2pF coupling capacitance. Now you may think 2pF is nothing to worry about; but at  1 GHz it is nearly 80 ohms impedance, so RF noise in the GHz will couple through - and I know that GHz noise is significant in causing noise floor modulation and hence changing the sound quality.
  
 I used my design lap-top, an MSI Intel i7 machine, as it will be noisier than my music lap-top (HP Pavilion) which is very power efficient. This is so it would be easier to hear any changes.
  
 So adding the Audioquest Jitter Bug did indeed improve SQ - it was fairly easy to hear it, with it sounding smoother, warmer, with less sibilance and glare. Instrument separation and focus was better. These are exactly the kind of change I hear with lower RF noise, so it was not unexpected.
  
 Next was to do the listening test with the lap-top on batteries - and then it became impossible to reliably hear the effect of the jitter bug. Additionally, the improvements heard were much smaller with the jitter bug connected when you disconnect the lap-top power. Here is a _rough_ assessment of SQ performance with 100% for best, 0% for worst:
  
 Lap-top battery power, no jitter bug       100%
 Lap-top battery power with jitter bug      100%
 Lap-top mains power with jitter bug         75%
 Lap-top mains power no jitter bug              0%
  
 So what does this tell us? Basically the most significant path of RF is residual coupling via the USB, not via the mains supply as the jitterbug alone gets you most of the way.
  
 Use the jitter bug for mains powered USB sources - it is worth the small cost.
  
 The best sound is still with a Win 10 lap-top on battery and for critical listening that is what I do. Battery operation and Dave's galvanic isolation means effectively perfect RF noise isolation from the source.
  
 Note also Win 10 is technically better than iOS xx, Android or Linux as these driver less USB's do not guarantee bit perfect data at the DAC; but Chord's Win driver does resend faulty packets, so we can guarantee bit perfect data for Dave. It would be interesting to do a listening test of driver less against Win.
  
 Rob


----------



## romaz

rob watts said:


> I have finally gotten round to listen to the AQ jitterbug, as a quest to understand where the RF noise problems from the source was coming from - via the mains or the USB...


 
 Thank you for your analysis, Rob.  This is very helpful and it further convinces me that music servers produce very stubborn amounts of RF noise, potentially much more than what is coming from the mains.
  
 Based on your comments in the past, I had drawn the conclusion that the two biggest challenges for a DAC in dealing with a music server are (1) jitter and (2) RF noise.  My own ears have convinced me that you have solved the jitter issue.  Obviously, RF noise has been a tougher nut to crack even with the galvanic isolation that you employ but I wonder if combating it solely at the USB level is the key.
  
 Over the past few months, as you know, I have tested a variety of sources and as I have reported with my DAVE, some USB sources sound better than other USB sources and I know others have reported hearing these differences also.  I have played around with various USB cables in addition to an AQ Jitterbug and indeed, there were differences which support what you are saying, that USB output is noisy and we would all do well to address it at this level.  
  
 This is where I start to get confused, however.  As I have previously reported, the differences I heard using a cheap printer USB cable against a $1,200 Clarity "Natural" USB cable (which has been the best USB cable I have heard thus far) was maybe 5%.  To my ears, adding an AQ Jitterbug, didn't improve things much more.  Adding a USB Regen didn't improve things at all.  Could it be that there is only so much "cleansing" that you can do at the USB level?
  
 After reading your post this evening, I went back to my WIndows laptop with SSD, my well-shielded Curious USB cable that has served me well, installed an AQ Jitterbug and ran it off its battery.  Using Roon (and nothing else, like HQ Player) and the Chord ASIO driver, I played a few of my reference tracks and confirmed playback was bit-perfect.
  
 I then switched to the microRendu using its stock switching power supply connected straight to the wall and using a $10 generic USB cable, I compared it against my Windows laptop.  The microRendu has no free USB port to allow insertion of something like an AQ Jitterbug.  Just like my WIndows laptop, I used Roon exclusively and confirmed bit-perfect playback.  What is interesting, however, is that unlike my comparison of different USB cables where the best cables were only subtlely better than a $10 printer USB cable, the microRendu was clearly superior to the Windows laptop, even to my wife who doesn't have a well-trained ear, because the differences are not so subtle.  While the microRendu is smoother and has less glare (similar to what you described), even more noticeable is the considerably enhanced dynamic contrasts, better-defined bass, more incisive transitions and increased clarity.  Even in stock form, it outclasses any other server I have heard to date and its superiority is easily appreciated with the DAVE.  While my better power supply with a lower output impedance for the microRendu hasn't arrived yet, those who are using such a power supply with their microRendu are suggesting even greater improvement.    
  
 As I have tried to understand the differences between the microRendu and other digital sources like a Windows laptop, the best way to describe it is that it is a "one trick pony."  Others have made this claim but the microRendu goes further than anything else I have seen.  Like many other computers, it contains a motherboard with CPU, RAM and an ethernet input as well as a USB output. It contains no local storage which can introduce noise.  Unlike the Windows laptops that you and I own, this motherboard is a completely custom design and contains none of the extra parts that are deemed unnecessary for music playback.  There is no graphics card, wifi chip or any superfluous ports.  Consequently, this motherboard is smaller than a deck of cards and so the signal path, from ethernet input to USB output is extremely short.  Furthermore, between the power to the ethernet PHY and the power to the USB subsystem are four ultra-low noise regulators, some of which have very high PSRR resulting in numerous and redundant levels of isolation.  With the microRendu, what I have found is that the USB output is so clean that an expensive USB cable with enhanced filtering capabilities adds no benefit.  It is so well isolated that the dirtiest of networks seem to have no impact on it.  What this suggests to me is that it is better to prevent noise than to have to remove it later and that possibly, once a signal is degraded by noise, it becomes irreversibly engrained in its fabric and there is no way to fully restore it.  Of course, this is my own speculation.
  
 I wish that you could hear a microRendu for yourself and see if you agree.


----------



## stvc

Not sure when is Rob leaving singapore, i do have a set 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## Rob Watts

Leaving tomorrow!
  
 But I will be getting hold of a microRendu to try - I am intrigued, particularly as the observation is that it is smoother, which is indicative of lower RF noise. Its a puzzle as battery supply with no earth connection ought to be the lowest way of transmitting RF noise into Dave. But weird things happen with RF, particularly at GHz frequencies. And it still may be nothing to do with Dave, but a symptom of other pick-up in the rest of the system. As I mentioned, YMWV!
  
 Rob


----------



## lovethatsound

Chord Dave review on the what hifi site for those that are interested.


----------



## ecwl

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/698-sonore-microrendu-review-part-1/
  
 I think the article above has the most information on the design of microRendu. Maybe Mr. Watts would comment more when he has had a read and a listen...
  
 I'm really hoping I don't "have to" or get too "tempted to" upgrade my entire system to one based on microRendu...
  
 Oh, well... The never-ending upgrade path.


----------



## Jawed

Why can't a DAC include the kinds of technology that is apparently seen in the microRendu?


----------



## Beolab

Can someone comment on the pure SQ diffrence btw MicroRendu vs SonicOrbiter SE ?


----------



## Beolab

Read the WhatHifi DAVE review and find this statement to be very funny, because they show their un knowledge about the digital pre amp in the DAVE, that it is the same sound even if you set the volume at -30db as at pass through, it is exactly as transparent no difference in SQ or bit depth loss. 

Or what are they purposing by saying; 

"The DAVE even makes a decent digital preamp though, as with most such products, a dedicated high quality preamp will work better still. Let’s not forget a suitably talented preamp is likely to cost a similar amount to the DAVE itself."

It is impossible to create a separate analog pre amp to sound more transparent further down the signal path, and this only creates misunderstandings buy 99% who read this.


----------



## x RELIC x

beolab said:


> Read the WhatHifi DAVE review and find this statement to be very funny, because they show their un knowledge about the digital pre amp in the DAVE, that it is the same sound even if you set the volume at -30db as at pass through, it is exactly as transparent no difference in SQ or bit depth loss.
> 
> Or what are they purposing by saying;
> 
> ...




Exactly. The "amp/pre-amp" section in Rob's designs is as transparent to the DAC as you can get with a lot of clean power output, even for the Mojo. I'm reading all over the place that MANY simply don't understand this, _especially_ in most professional reviews of Rob's designs. Adding more components will always add distortions, not take away. :rolleyes:


----------



## esimms86

beolab said:


> Can someone comment on the pure SQ diffrence btw MicroRendu vs SonicOrbiter SE ?


 

 The Computer Audiophile review is your best bet for reading about comparisons between the SOSE and the microRendu. Essentially, the microRendu is more analog sounding with better detail and lifelike, room shaking(if you're playing into a room) bass. It's just more...real sounding. Best server I've ever heard. Yes, I own both.


----------



## Sonic77

lovethatsound said:


> Chord Dave review on the what hifi site for those that are interested.


 

 Got dinged on the build quality.


----------



## Articnoise

rob watts said:


> Leaving tomorrow!
> 
> But I will be getting hold of a microRendu to try - I am intrigued, particularly as the observation is that it is smoother, which is indicative of lower RF noise. Its a puzzle as battery supply with no earth connection ought to be the lowest way of transmitting RF noise into Dave. But weird things happen with RF, particularly at GHz frequencies. And it still may be nothing to do with Dave, but a symptom of other pick-up in the rest of the system. As I mentioned, YMWV!
> 
> Rob


 
  

 The battery only isolate from the noise coming from the mains and a laptop is a computer which generate a ****load of its own noise from graphic cards, switching PSU, motherboard, software apps etc. Also there are more ways for the RF to sneak in than thru the mains, as most are airborne.


----------



## Rob Watts

Airborne RF is not a problem at all for Dave - that's why it is in a solid block of machined aluminium. No RF can get in or out - except via the mains supply and I/O's. The mains supply is extremely well RF filtered, and all IO's are carefully treated for RF.
  
 Note that modern homes are a RF hot spot with all the audio turned off, so its essential for good sound quality that treatments are carefully applied everywhere. Note I said carefully - RF treatment on analogue is very different to digital treatments.
  
 Rob


----------



## TheAttorney

rob watts said:


> Airborne RF is not a problem at all for Dave - that's why it is in a solid block of machined aluminium. No RF can get in or out - except via the mains supply and I/O's.


 
 What about all those holes drilled into the top plate? )
  
 Edit: I have a secondary reason for asking about the holes, which will become apparent later. But does it matter if the holes on the left hand side are blocked up by placing anything on top? I.e. are they essential to thermal stability?


----------



## Rob Watts

I would not be concerned about blocking some of the holes. But putting something on top of the holes and chassis that is not thermally conducting will of course reduce Dave's ability to dissipate heat away.
  
 Rob


----------



## mtoc

hello, is the incoming digital power amp also has excellent low distortion?


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes that's the intention - actually Dave's output stage and second order noise shaper topology came from the digital power amp. You can think of it as a more powerful version of Dave.
  
 Dave's ultra low distortion is a product of the pulse array DAC, the second order noise shaper, the output stage, and the power supply. The digital power amp is the same except for the power supply.
  
 I need to come up with a better name than digital power amp as it sounds like Class D, and the actual output is linear (non switching).
  
 Rob


----------



## mtoc

Thanks Rob, Dave is not using ASRC, right?


----------



## Christer

jawed said:


> Why can't a DAC include the kinds of technology that is apparently seen in the microRendu?


 
 I  am also asking the same question as you.
 At first we were told that DAVE was immune to any interferences and now   during the past couple of months there have been reports of clear  improvements with different add ons and plugin´s and connections which we were initiallly  told  would not make any audible dfferences at all, to the SQ of DAVE.
 And now it seems even Rob Watts himself recommends using a 40 bucks or so,add on, Audioquest Jitterbug with DAVE!  if you run your laptop plugged in.
 I  quickly heard  less sibilance and thinness from my HUGO  when using it  and my laptop on battery.
 That´s the way I´ve  mostly used it since I discovered that it sounds best that way more than two years ago. 
 Back home in my stereo Hugo  has given me more problems than pleasure and doesn´t even work at all, that way any longer.
 All it produces when connected to my stereo amp now is loud, very loud hum!
 And more often than not it also sounded thin and sibilant, before shutting down completely.
 I am currently using a properly galvanically isolated Benchmark DAC 2HGC in my system and it is good enough SQ wise to let me hear that  problems I have with SQ and certain  recordings are faults of the particular recordings,not the DAC.
 And it sounds the same round the clock with no  differences with my macbook pro connected to the wall or running on battery.
 It seems immune indeed.
 I was very  impressed by DAVE via headphones . But not even now with the Pound down would I buy one at such stratospheric pricing and still in need it seems of tweaks and  add ons.
 Though I have to admit that I might be tempted to buy a Chord DAC  if they bring on a properly isolated and shielded! portable DAVE SQ  DAC at a price point around Mojo´s.
 And of course! A portable DAC that also works equally well connected to a stereo system via speakers.


----------



## lovethatsound

christer said:


> I  am also asking the same question as you.
> At first we were told that DAVE was immune to any interferences and now   during the past couple of months there have been reports of clear  improvements with different add ons and plugin´s and connections which we were initiallly  told  would not make any audible dfferences at all, to the SQ of DAVE.
> And now it seems even Rob Watts himself recommends using a 40 bucks or so,add on, Audioquest Jitterbug with DAVE!  if you run your laptop plugged in.
> I  quickly heard  less sibilance and thinness from my HUGO  when using it  and my laptop on battery.
> ...


I think you'll have a very long wait.


----------



## yellowblue

I myself have heard the Dave with  labtop, Sonicorbiter, uRendu and uRendu with MCRU power supply. And with every step I could hear discernable differences. It was not night and day but I am quiet sure that I could detect the improvements in a blind test.
  
 So the statement that the Dave is immune to different sources seems to be proven wrong - not only by me. It was one of the main reasons for me to buy the Dave not needing to think about the sources anymore (and get some more peace of mind). Should I be irritated about this?
  
 I choose to be not. Because hearing the Dave with my labtop already exceeded my expectations. And I could have lived with that solution never regretting to have bought the Dave. We all are quiet lucky that there is a solution with the uRendu that is quiet a bargain at its price making the Dave sounding in a way I never thought was possible for a DAC. 
  
 But anyway Chord should stop the "immune-to-sources" argument in future advertising.


----------



## paul79

You really cannot be upset about sensitivity to the source. There is no way around this IME. The fact that the DAVE is less affected by the source should make you very happy, actually


----------



## shuttlepod

yellowblue said:


> I myself have heard the Dave with  labtop, Sonicorbiter, uRendu and uRendu with MCRU power supply. And with every step I could hear discernable differences. It was not night and day but I am quiet sure that I could detect the improvements in a blind test.
> 
> So the statement that the Dave is immune to different sources seems to be proven wrong - not only by me. It was one of the main reasons for me to buy the Dave not needing to think about the sources anymore (and get some more peace of mind). Should I be irritated about this?
> 
> ...


 

 I am of the same mind as yellowblue. Like everyone else, I thought/wished that DAVE was immune to just about any source. But do Rob and Chord deserve criticism for the fact that some sources and devices improve the sound quality? I think not. As far as I know, Chord is not advertising the DAVE as immune to all sources. Even if they are/were, DAVE is such a big step up from any other dac that I have heard that I'm very happy listening to it on my noisy laptop with a cheap USB cable. Now, that doesn't mean I will be ignoring the benefits of a microRendu with quality power supply, or other things that might improve DAVE. As yellowblue points out, the microRendu, even with a quality power supply, is relatively inexpensive by audiophile standards. And as Paul79 points out, DAVE is much more immune to sources, cables, tweaks, etc. than any other dac I am aware of. 
  
 Yes, I suppose DAVE is priced stratospherically (though significantly less than some of the competition). In my opinion, it performs stratospherically.


----------



## Mython

Speaking of microRendu, I notice there's *one FS*, in the classifieds


----------



## Mython

I don't recall Rob claiming DAVE to be 'immune to sources' - I just recall him claiming it to be 'immune' to jitter.
  
  


rob watts said:


> romaz said:
> 
> 
> > I maintain the opinion that all sources (at least all sources I have tried) sound very good with the DAVE and so to this extent, the DAVE is pretty well immune to "bad" sources but there are exceptional sources that can and do sound better and I am convinced that this is not merely a bit-perfect issue.  I don't believe it's a jitter issue as I have convinced myself the DAVE truly is immune to source jitter (i.e. my Oppo/Tidal example is proof of this for me) and so this leaves me to believe that source RF is the issue despite the DAVE's galvanic isolation,  Rob has suggested RF is difficult to completely mitigate against and compares it to a "fungus" that can't be completely eradicated.  The mR uses 10 regulators in its design from it's ethernet PHY to its USB hub, with each regulator providing some level of isolation and so as each of the components within the mR create their own RF that adds pollution to the signal, there are enough regulators in the chain to mitigate it as it is created.  The other supporting evidence for RF being the culprit is that a really good power supply (defined by John Swenson as one with very low output impedance) is supposed to make a significant difference with SQ.  I made an inquiry on the CA forum why this makes a difference but I got no response.  Paul Hynes, who will be building my power supply explained it well, however.  The lower the output impedance of a power supply (in the ideal world, it would be zero), the higher the PSRR (power supply rejection ratio) will be and in the ideal world, PSRR would be infinity.  PSRR is a measure of a power supply's immunity to the powered circuit that feeds it and an infinite PSRR would result in complete isolation to that circuit regardless of how dirty that circuit may be.  Because an infinite PSRR is not possible, no power supply can be completely isolated against the powered circuit but certainly, this is what you strive to achieve.  Again, this speaks to RF in the supply line as being the problem.
> ...


 
  
  
  
 Here's a thread-search (this thread) for the term 'immune', by 'Rob Watts':
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/newsearch/?search=immune&resultSortingPreference=recency&byuser=Rob+Watts&output=posts&sdate=0&newer=1&type=all&containingthread[0]=766517&advanced=1
  
 .


----------



## theveterans

> I don't recall Rob claiming DAVE to be 'immune to sources' - I just recall him claiming it to be 'immune' to jitter.


 
  
 But jitterbug is pretty much the jitter fix, so that contradicts his statement.


----------



## romaz

theveterans said:


> But jitterbug is pretty much the jitter fix, so that contradicts his statement.


 
 The "Jitterbug" name is misleading.  According to AudioQuest, their Jitterbug is a "USB Data and Power Noise Filter."


----------



## iDesign

theveterans said:


> But jitterbug is pretty much the jitter fix, so that contradicts his statement.


 

 AudioQuest does state, "Measurably reduces jitter and packet errors" and there has been a lot written here on the subject: 
  

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18580-Science-Thread-Review-of-Audioquest-Jitterbug-and-Uptone-Regen-USB-Conditioners
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18311-AQ-Jitterbug-Measurements
  
 I have used the Jitterbug with my 15" MacBook Pro and even used it with my iPhone 6S and iPad Mini 4 but have heard no audible difference. In fact the only benefit of the Jitterbug is that it flexes and reduces the stress on the USB port and the high end USB cables I own. In fact, I dropped my MacBook Pro and the JitterBug took the brunt of the impact saving the cable and the laptop.


----------



## romaz

idesign said:


> AudioQuest does state, "Measurably reduces jitter and packet errors" and there has been a lot written here on the subject:
> 
> 
> http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18580-Science-Thread-Review-of-Audioquest-Jitterbug-and-Uptone-Regen-USB-Conditioners
> ...


 
 I see this now.  I have a couple of Jitterbugs myself and have benefited from them in some things although this doesn't mean the jitter reducing properties of the Jitterbug apply to the DAVE.


----------



## romaz

I think "source immunity" with the DAVE has to be looked at in relative and not absolute terms.  In the field of medicine, we define immunity as a "resistance to" meaning that a human host's immune system will have limits and that those limits can be overcome.  The DAVE is immune to source jitter but only up to 2µs as Rob has stated but since no source that any of us will likely ever encounter will have more jitter than this, then from a practical perspective, it would be feasible to say that the DAVE is truly impervious to source jitter.  Those of you who have an Oppo BDP-103 or BDP-105 and have tried to stream Tidal internally through the Oppo's own DAC know how horrible this sounds due to jitter.  Then try running it through the DAVE and hear how magically it is transformed.  It's truly a night and day difference and has thoroughly convinced me of Rob's claim about being immune to source jitter. For those wondering what jitter sounds like, here are some extreme examples (up to 16µs) that even the DAVE can do nothing about but again, this is jitter you will likely never encounter from even the worst piece of equipment:
  
 http://www.sereneaudio.com/blog/what-does-jitter-sound-like
  
 As for source RF, I don't think Rob has been inaccurate to say that the DAVE is immune to RF provided that people understand that this immunity has limits as well.  My own experience has shown me that galvanic isolation has allowed even the noisiest sources to sound very good but a pristine source like the microRendu has shown me that even small amounts of RF can make a difference.
  
 What I have been observing lately is that the people that are now crying foul that the DAVE isn't completely immune to the source are non-DAVE owners.  Once you become a DAVE-owner, such concerns become less relevant and even trivial because all that a DAVE owner knows is that everything he or she listens to sounds terrific and while some sources can sound better, no source ever sounds horrible.


----------



## romaz

christer said:


> At first we were told that DAVE was immune to any interferences and now   during the past couple of months there have been reports of clear  improvements with different add ons and plugin´s and connections which we were initiallly  told  would not make any audible dfferences at all, to the SQ of DAVE.
> And now it seems even Rob Watts himself recommends using a 40 bucks or so,add on, Audioquest Jitterbug with DAVE!  if you run your laptop plugged in.


 
 I believe the audiophile journey is made up of discoveries and even the brightest and most experienced among us are always still discovering and learning new things.  The day that Rob believes he has learned everything possible is the day that we should all start looking elsewhere for our next DAC.
  
  


christer said:


> Back home in my stereo Hugo  has given me more problems than pleasure and doesn´t even work at all, that way any longer.
> All it produces when connected to my stereo amp now is loud, very loud hum!
> And more often than not it also sounded thin and sibilant, before shutting down completely.


 
 This is unfortunate.  Hopefully, yours is still under warranty.
  
  


christer said:


> I am currently using a properly galvanically isolated Benchmark DAC 2HGC in my system and it is good enough SQ wise to let me hear that  problems I have with SQ and certain  recordings are faults of the particular recordings,not the DAC.
> And it sounds the same round the clock with no  differences with my macbook pro connected to the wall or running on battery.
> It seems immune indeed.


 
 It sounds like you've already found a great DAC.  Congratulations.
  


christer said:


> I was very  impressed by DAVE via headphones . But not even now with the Pound down would I buy one at such stratospheric pricing and still in need it seems of tweaks and  add ons.
> Though I have to admit that I might be tempted to buy a Chord DAC  if they bring on a properly isolated and shielded! portable DAVE SQ  DAC at a price point around Mojo´s.
> And of course! A portable DAC that also works equally well connected to a stereo system via speakers.


 
 If you can find a better solution, you should buy it.


----------



## Articnoise

rob watts said:


> Leaving tomorrow!
> 
> But I will be getting hold of a microRendu to try - I am intrigued, particularly as the observation is that it is smoother, which is indicative of lower RF noise. *Its a puzzle as battery supply with no earth connection ought to be the lowest way of transmitting RF noise into Dave.* But weird things happen with RF, particularly at GHz frequencies. And it still may be nothing to do with Dave, but a symptom of other pick-up in the rest of the system. As I mentioned, YMWV!
> 
> Rob


 
  
  


articnoise said:


> The battery only isolate from the noise coming from the mains and a laptop is a computer which generate a ****load of its own noise from graphic cards, switching PSU, motherboard, software apps etc. Also there are more ways for the RF to sneak in than thru the mains, as most are airborne.


 
  
  


rob watts said:


> Airborne RF is not a problem at all for Dave - that's why it is in a solid block of machined aluminium. No RF can get in or out - except via the mains supply and I/O's. The mains supply is extremely well RF filtered, and all IO's are carefully treated for RF.
> 
> Note that modern homes are a RF hot spot with all the audio turned off, so its essential for good sound quality that treatments are carefully applied everywhere. Note I said carefully - RF treatment on analogue is very different to digital treatments.
> 
> Rob


 
  

 Airborne RF is maybe not a problem for Dave, but sure is for a laptop or PC!


----------



## rgs9200m

This thread seems to be turning into an all-things-Chord discussion. Given that, I will say that my Hugo and Hugo TT have worked just fine and sound great and don't seem to need any signal processing add-ons like USB isolators. There is no hum, noise, dropouts or any sort of distortion (all with using just USB input). My TT sounds wonderful and I recommend it to everyone I can. I use a Windows 10 desktop with Jriver, some solid state drives, and Tidal for sources. This has been the case during 2 years of use so far and everything is going strong and I hear no reason to upgrade or improve things.


----------



## shuttlepod

romaz said:


> What I have been observing lately is that the people that are now crying foul that the DAVE isn't completely immune to the source are non-DAVE owners.  Once you become a DAVE-owner, such concerns become less relevant and even trivial because all that a DAVE owner knows is that everything he or she listens to sounds terrific and while some sources can sound better, no source ever sounds horrible.


 
  
 Yes. Or, in my experience, no source ever sounds worse than excellent, relative to other dacs.


----------



## Jawed

My TT sounds fabulous driving my HD 800 S headphones off an ordinary high-end PC that I built for myself, using the USB cable that came in the box.

A factor in purchasing the TT was "relative immunity" to the crap that comes with using USB. I don't have a personal scale for this immunity as my previous DAC used a 50MHz bandwidth AT&T optical connection to the CD transport (not TOSLINK), so erm, digital interconnect-bourne RF wasn't in the picture there.

If there's a level of RF immunity above that seen in DAVE's architecture, then in my view that's a problem that should be solved in future DACs. There is no reason, in my view, why DACs can't do this properly. That's the beginning and end of my question: why can't a DAC do this?

I could have waited to buy DAVE last autumn instead of the TT. I chose instead to get "mostly up-to-date" with the best of computer audio, dipping a toe in the water with the TT, and a significant aspect of my purchase is about not messing about with all these stupid things that people obsess over and put between their music files and the DAC.

I post in this thread as a technophile, and a large attraction there is having a conversation with arguably the greatest designer of digital audio playback equipment.


----------



## Ampus

There is no perfect DAC; however, I understand other posters' frustration. It's as if you think that you found a perfect girlfriend to just realize later that she is a guy . Well, maybe not that extreme.

It is also like having your doctor telling you that your hernia surgery would go perfectly and waking up finding one of your testicles is missing. Well, perhaps it is also not that extreme and no, none of these scenarios has ever happened to me.

Perhaps we should stop hunting for a perfect DAC and just enjoy the music instead. DAVE, while not perfect, is undoubtedly is one of the best DAC's out there.


----------



## romaz

jawed said:


> My TT sounds fabulous driving my HD 800 S headphones off an ordinary high-end PC that I built for myself, using the USB cable that came in the box.
> 
> A factor in purchasing the TT was "relative immunity" to the crap that comes with using USB. I don't have a personal scale for this immunity as my previous DAC used a 50MHz bandwidth AT&T optical connection to the CD transport (not TOSLINK), so erm, digital interconnect-bourne RF wasn't in the picture there.
> 
> ...


 
 Valid points.  Just to be clear, just like your TT, the DAVE doesn't need any of these "stupid things" that you talk about to sound exceptional.  It is, in fact, the least fussy DAC I have ever owned.  Use the 18g mains cable that comes with it along with almost any USB cable or optical cable and paired with even the dirtiest PC, you will still probably be better off than most.  If you choose not to listen to anything else, then you're all set but most technophiles (and especially head-fiers) that I know are tinkerers and trying out new things is part of the fun.  If this wasn't the case, I would still be using the stock earbuds that came with my Sony Walkman years ago.


----------



## Rob Watts

mtoc said:


> Thanks Rob, Dave is not using ASRC, right?


 
 Absolutely not when using USB, as the system clock is the source of all data timing - the USB is locked to the FPGA.
  
 For asynchronous inputs (all of the others) the digital phase lock loop (DPLL) steps in, and together with a small buffer, re-locks and re-times the data to the FPGA clock. This is how incoming jitter is removed from an asynchronous source.
  
 The benefit of my DPLL is it does not have the enormous problems of a conventional PLL as its impossible for an analogue PLL to eliminate incoming jitter, and it always suffers from low frequency jitter problems, which are highly audible. Additionally, PLL suffer from correlated jitter problems that are impossible to eliminate. That's why analogue PLL takes ages for the clocks to settle, but Dave will be perfect within a second. But to make my DPLL work as well as a local clock took a lot of work and six years to optimize the code. In fact, I call it a DPLL but it actually isn't phase locked - its frequency locked and employs a tiny buffer to remove incoming jitter. The phase locking only applies in the first second of acquiring lock; once it has acquired lock, the phase detector is switched off and everything is then controlled via a 10 second frequency measurement. The benefit of this is that its impossible for the jitter of the incoming source to affect the output of the DPLL as data is taken out from the tiny buffer via the local clock.
  
 Sorry if I have confused you with my answer as it is a very complex subject and not easy to explain.
  
 Rob


----------



## x RELIC x

rob watts said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This is all I read...

Clock lock clock lock clock clock lock clock lock.... 

Just kidding!


----------



## mtoc

> Originally Posted by *Rob Watts* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ...Sorry if I have confused you with my answer as it is a very complex subject and not easy to explain.


 
  
 Not confused at all, I've done a lot of research on DACs, been reading many kinds of tech discussions, finally Dave caught my eyes, my friend is now a happy dave user, it's decent. We wanna thanks for your hard work. Personally I'm hoping some super Dave is coming out in the future. Much much more crazy taps, and scary oversampling rate, like 1*10^8FS. (Sorry, I admit i am a nuts...)


----------



## analogmusic

I'm flying to New York City in a few days, I would like to be able to listen to DAVE.
  
 Does anyone know which dealer in NYC has the Dave for audition?


----------



## esimms86

analogmusic said:


> I'm flying to New York City in a few days, I would like to be able to listen to DAVE.
> 
> Does anyone know which dealer in NYC has the Dave for audition?




Sound By Singer. Please do call ahead for an appointment with Andrew Singer.


----------



## analogmusic

Thanks


----------



## Sunya

rob watts said:


> The digital power amp is the same except for the power supply.
> 
> I need to come up with a better name than digital power amp as it sounds like Class D, and the actual output is linear (non switching).


 
  
 Power DAC, a DAC with an output stage powerful enough to drive speakers directly.


----------



## Beolab

sunya said:


> Power DAC, a DAC with an output stage powerful enough to drive speakers directly.




That sounds like a killer DAC called Super DAVE


----------



## Mython

beolab said:


> sunya said:
> 
> 
> > Power DAC, a DAC with an output stage powerful enough to drive speakers directly.
> ...


 
  
  
*"He's a man with a mission to deliver the highest quality entertainment, at any cost!"*


----------



## mtoc

Dave plus the digital 20W amp, now we really have a low distortion system to drive HE6.


----------



## TheAttorney

A while back I commented that I _thought_ I could hear subtle differences between optical cables to DAVE, with a background that I previously could hear _big _differences between digital cables to Yggy.
 So here's an update:
  
 With Nagra CDC to DAVE, I tried 3 optical cables: AQ Diamond still on loan; the stock "freebie" that came with DAVE; and a newly received Mapleshade that others here have strongly recommended. Like I said, the differences were now rather subtle, but still there. Further complicated by the Mapleshade appearing to be directional, as the maker strongly claims.
 In short I felt that Mapleshade and AQ were broadly on the same level, with the Mapleshade slightly more focused and precise, and the AQ more analogue-in-a-good-way.
 However, as the AQ was over 4 times the price, it was a no brainer to return it, so I did.
  
 Next tried the Mapleshade against the freebie cable.  The latter had a similar analoguey signature as the AQ, but was a step down in quality - i.e. a touch woollier, a touch more shut in, and a touch more grain in the upper mids. So the Mapleshade stays in place. Whether or not some of this is my imagination is rather a moot point for me now, because I'm done with cable changes and, with a microRendu on its way, I'm moving on to try computer/server sources. I repeat that these cable differences were more subtle than that I had experienced with the Yggy.
  
 And also more subtle than what happended next when my washing machine pads arrived!!!. That deserves it's own post later this weekend


----------



## rkt31

hi, can anybody elaborate about various filters used in upsampling? chord uses fir with longer tap length, Hq player uses poly sinc and many others, schiit uses closed form filter. I was particularly impressed by sinc ( not poly sinc) filter of Hq player. what is this sinc filter ?


----------



## esimms86

rkt31 said:


> hi, can anybody elaborate about various filters used in upsampling? chord uses fir with longer tap length, Hq player uses poly sinc and many others, schiit uses closed form filter. I was particularly impressed by sinc ( not poly sinc) filter of Hq player. what is this sinc filter ?


 

 See post#2 in this thread. I have it bookmarked.
  
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/hqplayer-resampling-filter-setup-guide-ordinary-person-13298/


----------



## rkt31

thanks , I have read that post. good explanation by miss but still he does not elaborate much about sinc filter. he says that it is a special kind of filter which requires more computational power. nobody other too talks about this filter. everybody likes some variation of polysinc filters. I was mainly interested in pcm upsampling.


----------



## rkt31

read misk


----------



## rkt31

miska


----------



## Mython




----------



## Beolab

theattorney said:


> A while back I commented that I _thought_ I could hear subtle differences between optical cables to DAVE, with a background that I previously could hear _big_ differences between digital cables to Yggy.
> So here's an update:
> 
> With Nagra CDC to DAVE, I tried 3 optical cables: AQ Diamond still on loan; the stock "freebie" that came with DAVE; and a newly received Mapleshade that others here have strongly recommended. Like I said, the differences were now rather subtle, but still there. Further complicated by the Mapleshade appearing to be directional, as the maker strongly claims.
> ...




I find my AQ Diamond more fluid / vivid / airy / wider with no grain in the upper mid/high against the Stock optical, BUT !! 
There is extreme subtle, but it is hearable. 

Then about the HQ Player filterning, i wounder whats happens with the siund when you choose Sinc filter and go direct to the DAVE ore through the MicroRendu then DAVE in combination with the Wats FIR Tap filter ??

Have anyone tried this? Is it a winner ?


----------



## paulchiu

beolab said:


> I find my AQ Diamond more fluid / vivid / airy / wider with no grain in the upper mid/high against the Stock optical.
> 
> Then about the HQ Player filterning, i wounder whats happens with the siund when you choose Sinc filter and go direct to the DAVE ore through the MicroRendu then DAVE in combination with the Wats FIR Tap filter ??
> 
> Have anyone tried this? Is it a winner ?


 
  
 By HQ Player, are you talking about the software HQ Player usable with the microRendu?
 If so, how does it sound with DAVE versus the Roon or another DLNA-player like JRiver Media Center?
  
 Thanks
  
 paul


----------



## Christer

romaz said:


> I believe the audiophile journey is made up of discoveries and even the brightest and most experienced among us are always still discovering and learning new things.  The day that Rob believes he has learned everything possible is the day that we should all start looking elsewhere for our next DAC.
> 
> 
> This is unfortunate.  Hopefully, yours is still under warranty.
> ...


 

 Hello romaz,
 I definitely agree with you regarding "the journey" in most ways, it is only the ever growing costs involved, that I have problems with.
 I too suffer from "audiophilia nerviosa" to a sometimes embarrasing  degree.
 And as I have clearly  stated, there is no doubt to me that DAVE is a superb DAC,maybe even  currently,THE best consumer DAC for PCM?
 But  no 1: It is terribly expensive for me at least. No 2: It only does stereo and you cant´record with it.
 And you are still expected to pay around 10k€
 Looking at DAVE from that perspective, I am thinking of, and was already long before I auditioned DAVE, tempted to buy either a MERGING HORUS or HAPI, the two ADCs/DACs used by a growing number of  classical music labels where I have  actually been to sessions and heard things both live and played back raw.
 I  know first-hand that mch/surround done right  sounds closer to the real thing than conventional stereo .
 And  HORUS or at least,HAPI can be bought for roughly half the cost of one single stereo only and  playback  only DAVE.
 And the problems with usb and jitter discussed here are moot. They don´t work with usb at all.
  
  
 One thing real MCH can do clearly better and more realistically, than plain stereo, is soundstage and DEPTH.
 But last week I downloaded the just released James  Matheson album from the label Yarlung in a newly developed format called SonoruS Holographic Imaging in its DXD form from nativeDSD.com.
 And to my surprise and joy,played back via my two, only two, electrostatic speakers, it opened up the soundstage  and increased depth  and decreased masking effects in a way approaching what I have so far only heard from real mch.
 I know Rob Watts is  really striving to bring better depth than the competition.
 And if my memory serves me right DAVE excelled in that respect even via headphones.
 I would of course like to hear if DAVE would unravel even more depth than my humble Benchmark DAC2 HGC does, but it was so good that I have played this album ten times in a week.
 Unfortunately I can´t try it with HUGO. And equally unfortunately the warranty is out on it.
 If instead of listening mainly to equipment tweaks, for a change you want both a great musical experience and a surprising HIFI experience provided your HIFI system is phase coherent through the whole chain,there are test tracks to try on Yarlung´s homesite and if they work as described for you download some great  contemporary, ACOUSTIC music from an enterprising label and download site.Sorry, but NO for headphones only  listeners, SonoruS does NOT work via headphones. But binaural does and  a  recent session I  missed was  actually recorded not only  in DSD 256/DXD stereo and mch , but also binaurallly,via MERGING HORUS, Mahler´s 7th.
 Cheers Chris and enjoy the music via your DAVE.


----------



## prot

On





theattorney said:


> A while back I commented that I _thought_ I could hear subtle differences between optical cables to DAVE, with a background that I previously could hear _big_ differences between digital cables to Yggy.
> So here's an update:
> 
> With Nagra CDC to DAVE, I tried 3 optical cables: AQ Diamond still on loan; the stock "freebie" that came with DAVE; and a newly received Mapleshade that others here have strongly recommended. Like I said, the differences were now rather subtle, but still there. Further complicated by the Mapleshade appearing to be directional, as the maker strongly claims.
> ...




One thing is for sure: you do have a lot of imagination


----------



## rudi0504

I have tried Chord Dave possibility pair with my portable source / Daps

Source :
Iphone 5 s
Sony ZX2
VentureCraft Valog SounDroid

dac Amp :
Chord Dave 

Sound Quality :

the best SQ use Valog
Use: Optical 
it can play 24 / 192KHz on Valog is the same on Chord Dave 

the second Best Iphone 5 S
Use USB 
wav 16 /44,1 KHz 
surprisingly play in high rate 353,8 KHz

third Best Sony ZX2
Use USB
i play Native DSD 
on Dave show only 176,8 KHz

Anyone can help me please 

Why on iphone 5 s came out on Dave display 
353,8 KHz ?
I use WAV 16bit /44,1KHz
I use Muisc Player Kaisertone
Via USB connection 

On Sony ZX2 
I play Native DSD 
On Dave display only 176,8 KHz
Why Sony can not Play DSD via USB

I have tested use Iphone 6 s Rose Gold
The same music file WAV 16bit / 44,1 KHz 
On Dave came out 44,1 KHz
I use Kaisertone

Thank you


----------



## x RELIC x

rudi0504 said:


> I have tried Chord Dave possibility pair with my portable source / Daps
> 
> Source :
> Iphone 5 s
> ...




Likely the Kaisertone music app on the 5S is set to upsample and not sending a bit perfect signal to the Dave. The same app on the iPhone 6S is not upsampling before it sends the signal out. Try to see if there is a setting difference between the 5S and the 6S in the app. 

The Sony simply does not play DSD natively over USB and converts to 176.4 PCM (actually, I think the Sony converts DSD to PCM internally as well). 

If you aren't getting the expected sampling rate displayed then the issue is from the source as the Dave just shows what it's receiving.


----------



## ecwl

Also, I was looking at the pictures you took. I think most of us prefers to have the HF filter ON all the time. And is there a reason why you've inverted the phase for all your music playback? Normal correct phase is Positive. Finally, if you're listening to PCM, you should set the DAC to PCM plus because that uses 176,000 taps for PCM music. If you set the DAC to DSD plus while playing PCM music, it still plays the PCM music in the exact same way except it uses only 88,000 taps so you're not getting optimal performance from Chord DAVE. If you're playing DSD, that's when you should set the DAC to DSD plus.


----------



## x RELIC x

ecwl said:


> Also, I was looking at the pictures you took. I think most of us prefers to have the HF filter ON all the time. And is there a reason why you've inverted the phase for all your music playback? Normal correct phase is Positive. Finally, if you're listening to PCM, you should set the DAC to PCM plus because that uses *176,000* taps for PCM music. If you set the DAC to DSD plus while playing PCM music, it still plays the PCM music in the exact same way except it uses only *88,000* taps so you're not getting optimal performance from Chord DAVE. If you're playing DSD, that's when you should set the DAC to DSD plus.




Correction - 164,000 Taps for PCM+ or 82,000 for DSD+.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/765#post_12102337


----------



## Mython

kerouac said:


> @Paul - iBasso can I order a RHCP signed / limited edition DX200 please?
> A signed by 'The Dude' himself DX200 also would be very nice


 
  
  
 that gives me an idea...
  
  
 Maybe Chord could do a Special Edition Chord DAVE, signed by Rob, John, Matt, and
  


Spoiler: SuperDave






mython said:


> beolab said:
> 
> 
> > sunya said:
> ...


----------



## Mython

On a more serious note, have any of our wealthy members tried DAVE in a multiple-DAC configuration, for multi-channel sound reproduction?


----------



## t258jgn

Can anyone tell me the settings in JRiver?
  
 Previously using Chord Hugo TT but after changed to DAVE with the same settings, seemed there're some distortions in the music


----------



## TheAttorney

prot said:


> One thing is for sure: you do have a lot of imagination


 
 You ain't seen nothing yet )
  
 But on to more serious matters, here are my initial impressions of the KE washing machine pads and how they affected DAVE:
       http://www.head-fi.org/t/693686/great-bargain-isolation-discovery/15#post_12695813
  
 Edit: To put this into perspective, I'd say the KE pad effect on SQ were more obvious than my impressions of optical cable differences, but both I'd class as incremental - compared to the microRendu that arrived this weekend, which shows great promise of being a step change improvement.


----------



## onsionsi

You should change the device selection from Hugo TT to Dave from tools > options > audio > audio device and select the Dave device


----------



## Crgreen

And make sure you've installed the Dave driver. It might be the same, but when I upgraded from the Hugo I uninstalled the old driver and installed the new one. I'm using JRiver with JPlay.


----------



## yamuling

Any one feeling that Win8.0 pro is a much better syetem than the Win10 for the usb dac like DAVE?


----------



## Mython

yamuling said:


> Any one feeling that Win8.0 pro is a much better syetem than the Win10 for the usb dac like DAVE?


 
  
_Anything _is better than Win 10.
  
 I'd take XP or Win 7 over Win 10 (and over Win 8, too), any day.


----------



## Crgreen

For the purposes of music playback, I'm not sure if there are significant differences. I have Win 8.1 on my hi-fi laptop, which is soley used for such purposes from external drives to which music files are copied over the network. I use kernel streaming with JPlay and Chord's steaming service driver, bypassing a lot of Windows features. For other setups it different versions might make a difference. I'd be interested to hear.


----------



## rgs9200m

So t258jgn, any comments on the Hugo TT vs. the DAVE would be welcome. Thanks in advance!
 (Just for the record on the comment right above about Win10, My Hugo TT is Awesome with Windows 10 with no problems and super sonics, so I personally don't agree with this. I use Jriver and Tidal. I have a Puget Custom Computers Serenity desktop
 with a mid-speed core i7 that is about 5 to 6 years old which has not been upgraded. All of my music files are stored on internal and external solid state drives. And this is not a dedicated machine for music or audio.)


----------



## TSAVJason

For those of you that would like to get more aquatinted with CHORD products and in SoCal we are having a meet that includes CHORD products up to the DAVE. At The Source AV in Torrance Ca. Saturday July 9th 10am - 5pm


----------



## rkt31

mython said:


> thanks mython. actually the problem is that the opera mini browser on android does not somehow shows the edit option and most of the time i have to access the forum through mobile phone !
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


----------



## romaz

mython said:


> On a more serious note, have any of our wealthy members tried DAVE in a multiple-DAC configuration, for multi-channel sound reproduction?


 
 There's no reason why it can't be done with the DAVE but yes, it will be expensive.
  
 Ted Smith, creator of the PS Audio DirectStream has done exactly this with his DACs and has reported wonderful results using multi-channel SACD recordings, an Oppo BDP-93 modified with the following board:
  
 http://www.jvbdigital.nl/jvb.asp?cur=1&level=sdi&page=title&title=924
  
 Ordinarily, because of the encryption schemes employed, multi-channel SACD will output a digital signal only through the HDMI port.  This add-on board will output a de-encrypted multichannel digital hi-def audio signal through RCA ports instead (up to 8 channels).  This means you will need up 4 DAVEs and connect via the BNC ports.  Of course, this would work for Blu-Ray movies also and this setup could represent one of the finest home theater setups in the world.  The ideal scenario would be for Rob and Chord to create an 8-channel DAVE DAC.


----------



## rkt31

romaz said:


> There's no reason why it can't be done with the DAVE but yes, it will be expensive.
> 
> Ted Smith, creator of the PS Audio DirectStream has done exactly this with his DACs and has reported wonderful results using multi-channel SACD recordings, an Oppo BDP-93 modified with the following board:
> 
> ...


 
 if i am right for movies there are already some outboard decoders/processors available which can output multi channel pcm signals.


----------



## rgs9200m

I guess I'm old-school, but multi channel sound beyond a set of stereo speakers has always sounded weird to me. Even a center channel seems to make imaging sort of flat as opposed to great center/phantom images from conventional stereo. If I hear things behind me, even ambience from rear speakers, it sounds artificial and somehow forced. Just my humble opinion. I would sure rather direct my dollars to better 2-channel stereo rather than divert valuable dollars to multi-stuff. Of course, I don't care about or watch many movies, I just listen to music. Movies might as well be midfi for me, unless for the occasional concert on video.


----------



## Crgreen

I agree. Given the paucity of recordings I thought that so far as music was concerned, surround-sound had more or less died the death. I know Stereophile still mantains a column but it can only be a matter of time before they axe it.


----------



## paulchiu

happy US July 4th!
  
 After nearly 4K comments on our beloved DAVE, I am surprised there are zero reviews on head-fi.org.
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/chord-dave
  
 For those of you who could really write.  Please!
  
 paul


----------



## Mython

My question about multi-channel isn't really because I am an avid fan of multi-channel, but more out of curiosity, since I know (*partly* thanks to an earlier discussion with Romaz) that it is technically possible, and I am curious as to how the soundstage-depth talents of DAVE might be subjectively perceived within the context of a multi-channel configuration. For example, I wonder if it might 'expand' the subjective size of the circular soundstage, or, because of the oddities of multi-channel processing, perhaps have no such influence upon soundstage size (or, I could say 'circular-depth'), or perhaps some other unanticipated influence.
  
 So...just simple curiosity, above all else.


----------



## Crgreen

paulchiu said:


> happy US July 4th!
> 
> After nearly 4K comments on our beloved DAVE, I am surprised there are zero reviews on head-fi.org.
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/chord-dave
> ...




Probably because all the reviews have appeared here and it would be a bit redundant.


----------



## romaz

rgs9200m said:


> I guess I'm old-school, but multi channel sound beyond a set of stereo speakers has always sounded weird to me. Even a center channel seems to make imaging sort of flat as opposed to great center/phantom images from conventional stereo. If I hear things behind me, even ambience from rear speakers, it sounds artificial and somehow forced. Just my humble opinion. I would sure rather direct my dollars to better 2-channel stereo rather than divert valuable dollars to multi-stuff. Of course, I don't care about or watch many movies, I just listen to music. Movies might as well be midfi for me, unless for the occasional concert on video.


 
 Most audiophiles prefer 2-channel where you have a forward soundstage but when you go to a live performance, it's not just about soundstage width, height and depth.  There is also a rear soundstage that represents the acoustical reflections of the venue.  With good multi-channel, the goal isn't to hear musicians performing behind you because that certainly would not represent any live event that I attend.  Rather, the rear and side channels are supposed to provide you the natural ambience and the reflections that you might hear at Carnegie Hall, for example, even if your listening room is only a fraction of the size of Carnegie Hall.  I have heard some really good multi-channel recordings that definitely provide a greater sense of "you are there" and so the goal with good multi-channel isn't "artists in the room" like it is with 2-channel but rather "listener transported to the venue."  Even the applause and the inadvertent coughs and sneezes that emanate from the rear channels can contribute to the illusion that you are sitting 5th row center if you close your eyes.  In this sense, the experience can truly be genuinely immersive and transfixing.  Listen to the 2-channel vs multichannel versions of Magnificat by 2L in your home theater and be prepared to be more convincingly transported to the Nidaros Cathedral in Norway with the multichannel version.  The problem is there aren't many good multi-channel recordings to make this expensive venture worthwhile for most manufacturers and consumers.
  
 There happens to be one DAC manufacturer who believes there is a market for a high-end multichannel DAC and this DAC happens to be their most expensive product:
  
 http://www.msbtech.com/products/masterDetail.php?Page=platinumHome


----------



## Crgreen

You're right: in principle, multi-channel audio affords the possibility of more realistic sound reproduction. But it's never really taken off. There are a number of possible reasons for this, but the most obvious are the legacy of two channel audio, and all those headphone listeners whose needs increasingly dominate the market


----------



## esimms86

romaz said:


> There happens to be one DAC manufacturer who believes there is a market for a high-end multichannel DAC and this DAC happens to be their most expensive product:
> 
> http://www.msbtech.com/products/masterDetail.php?Page=platinumHome


 
 NADAC and, perhaps, exasound (at a much lower price point) beg to differ. The msbtech offering makes the thought of having 4 DAVES in a surround setup seem like a cost effective idea.


----------



## Crgreen

You're right: in principle, multi-channel audio affords the possibility of more realistic sound reproduction. But it's never really taken off. There are a number of possible reasons for this, but the most obvious are the legacy of two channel audio, and all those headphone listeners whose needs increasingly dominate the market


----------



## rkt31

crgreen said:


> You're right: in principle, multi-channel audio affords the possibility of more realistic sound reproduction. But it's never really taken off. There are a number of possible reasons for this, but the most obvious are the legacy of two channel audio, and all those headphone listeners whose needs increasingly dominate the market


 
 theoretically even 2 channel recording done with a single stereo mic, captures all the ambient cues which can be reproduced by a stereo playback system. there is a chesky stereo test track for that. i have listened to that track and you can hear the sound coming from behind in a properly set up stereo system  . that thing is possible even by some sophisticated sound processing  algorithm but the process demands heavy processing and due to that sometimes the music can sound a bit brittle in higher frequencies. i am myself a stereo man and watch movies in 2 channel mode with hugo. master and commander and spr blu rays are great tester for movies in 2 channel.


----------



## Christer

romaz said:


> Most audiophiles prefer 2-channel where you have a forward soundstage but when you go to a live performance, it's not just about soundstage width, height and depth.  There is also a rear soundstage that represents the acoustical reflections of the venue.  With good multi-channel, the goal isn't to hear musicians performing behind you because that certainly would not represent any live event that I attend.  Rather, the rear and side channels are supposed to provide you the natural ambience and the reflections that you might hear at Carnegie Hall, for example, even if your listening room is only a fraction of the size of Carnegie Hall.  I have heard some really good multi-channel recordings that definitely provide a greater sense of "you are there" and so the goal with good multi-channel isn't "artists in the room" like it is with 2-channel but rather "listener transported to the venue."  Even the applause and the inadvertent coughs and sneezes that emanate from the rear channels can contribute to the illusion that you are sitting 5th row center if you close your eyes.  In this sense, the experience can truly be genuinely immersive and transfixing.  Listen to the 2-channel vs multichannel versions of Magnificat by 2L in your home theater and be prepared to be more convincingly transported to the Nidaros Cathedral in Norway with the multichannel version.  The problem is there aren't many good multi-channel recordings to make this expensive venture worthwhile for most manufacturers and consumers.
> 
> There happens to be one DAC manufacturer who believes there is a market for a high-end multichannel DAC and this DAC happens to be their most expensive product:
> 
> http://www.msbtech.com/products/masterDetail.php?Page=platinumHome


 

  Hello again romaz.
 Well there are some works where there can be instruments also from the back channels with mch. One such example is the  LSO LIVE Berlioz Requiem from ST Paul´s Cathedral, where the brass in the Dies Irae are sounding from " all four corners" so to say.
 My  most impressive live concert of Berlioz´s Requiem was live in Salzburg many years ago also with the brass in all four corners. It was maybe the most "Eargasmic Experience" I have ever had.
 And as you say 2L´s  recordings  are also very immersive in mch.
 I´ve  worked  on two of Morten´s productions as photographer and both being right in  the choir in Nidaros and the Chamber Orchestra in Selbu church were truly immersive experiences. And of course the recordings sound much closer to live heard in mch than  plain stereo.
 But good as mch can be under ideal circumstances my preference is still the lowest possible distortion and big full range speakers with lots of watts powering my music.
 A full mch system of the similar SQ  and fffr as my current stereo system would add at least another 20k in price  for speakers and amping alone,not to mention the space needed for five big electrostatic speakers instead of two.
 But the first SonoruS Holographic Imaging recording from Yarlung shows some promise for more accurate spatial sound than plain stereo at least. But one has to get used to listening to tape hiss a bit  again,SonoruS  is rendered via a tape recorder somehow.
 Especially the string quartet and the voice and piano sound very realistic and at times, listening with closed eyes, almost the only thing telling my senses I have not been transported to the venue is the slight tape hiss audible.
 Just as with headphones there are imho, no other speakers except some planars that image as perfectly realistically as electrostatic speakers. And no other speakers I have heard do it with lower distortions and as seamlessly as electrostatics.
 Cost  and room size no object, I would own either   5 Gryphon Pendragons or 5  ML Neoliths and mch amping and  an mch DAC of SOTA quality.
 And considering how much effort Rob Watts puts into recreating accurate depth and space, it is surprising there is no mch DAC from him yet.
 There are as far as I know only two ways of delivering those things as close as possible to the real thing,and they are with speakers mch with at least 4 channels and via headphones binaurally.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

I will preface this with a comment: I love my DAVE.
  
 But its remote is really crummy...  What happened there?  I know many here don't use it aside to change volume (if that) so it doesn't matter, but as a DAC with as many features as DAVE has and literally not one is accessible with the remote.  Really?  It has nearly 50 buttons, but only 6 or so actually serve a purpose - at least as far as I can surmise.  I know it's likely a 'generic Chord remote' but I feel like it's the one black mark on an otherwise amazing product.


----------



## Beolab

bigfatpaulie said:


> I will preface this with a comment: I love my DAVE.
> 
> 
> But its remote is really crummy...  What happened there?  I know many here don't use it aside to change volume (if that) so it doesn't matter, but as a DAC with as many features as DAVE has and literally not one is accessible with the remote.  Really?  It has nearly 50 buttons, but only 6 or so actually serve a purpose - at least as far as I can surmise.  I know it's likely a 'generic Chord remote' but I feel like it's the one black mark on an otherwise amazing product.





You can always pimp it out with the Chord Alu Remote holder that match the DAVE like i have! Then it weighs about 680 grams and the feel are on a diffrent level, but you do not get any more funktion or buttons


----------



## romaz

bigfatpaulie said:


> I will preface this with a comment: I love my DAVE.
> 
> But its remote is really crummy...  What happened there?  I know many here don't use it aside to change volume (if that) so it doesn't matter, but as a DAC with as many features as DAVE has and literally not one is accessible with the remote.  Really?  It has nearly 50 buttons, but only 6 or so actually serve a purpose - at least as far as I can surmise.  I know it's likely a 'generic Chord remote' but I feel like it's the one black mark on an otherwise amazing product.


 
 Paul, I am afraid that somehow you got stuck with the Canadian version of Chord's remote.  Apparently, during Chord's research, they determined that Canadians have no need for a full function remote and so they purposely deactivated 44 of your buttons.
  
 The U.S. version, on the other hand, has all 50 buttons operational and even has some extra features not found elsewhere such as a "voice beautifier" button that miraculously improves even the worst American recordings.  With this feature activated, even my Britney Spears 96k mp3 files have become supremely enjoyable to listen to for hours on end.  Same thing goes for my large Barry Manilow collection.  All that Chord knows is that Canada is the land of Céline Dion and Michael Bublé and needs no special remote buttons.  If you remind Chord that Canada is also the land of Justin Bieber, perhaps you can qualify for our remote.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> Paul, I am afraid that somehow you got stuck with the Canadian version of Chord's remote.  Apparently, during Chord's research, they determined that Canadians have no need for a full function remote and so they purposely deactivated 44 of your buttons.
> 
> The U.S. version, on the other hand, has all 50 buttons operational and even has some extra features not found elsewhere such as a "voice beautifier" button that miraculously improves even the worst American recordings.  With this feature activated, even my Britney Spears 96k mp3 files have become supremely enjoyable to listen to for hours on end.  Same thing goes for my large Barry Manilow collection.  All that Chord knows is that Canada is the land of Céline Dion and Michael Bublé and needs no special remote buttons.  If you remind Chord that Canada is also the land of Justin Bieber, perhaps you can qualify for our remote.


 
  
 his remote does look different.  Looks like it came with a special cradle to make up for the paucity of features.


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## Crgreen

The remote is poor, and the button which supposedly allows access to DAVE's menu doesn't seem to work. I can only use the remote to change volume and inputs.


----------



## wmns

You can also put the Face in standby mode with the remote. Think this is only possible with the remote ?


----------



## Crgreen

Sorry, what's "the Face"?


----------



## wmns

Sorry, should be the Dave.


----------



## Crgreen

I think that's right. If anyone's worked out how to access the display features with the remote, I'd be interested to know. I'd like to be able to switch between PCM and DSD using the remote.


----------



## apops

Sorry for the OT, I'm moving to DC and I would like to meet other people living in the area that share the same passion for HiFi. By the way, I'm am DAVE owner from Italy.
Andrea


----------



## Rob Watts

I listened to a fresh brand new Dave against my treasured and somewhat beaten up pre-production unit, that has thousands of hours on the clock.
  
 The new unit was a bit brighter than mine; but it was also more transparent - particularly with ambient details - I heard some studio reverb put in on Nora Jones that I have not heard before. It seemed to be more transparent when things were loud - but small details and depth perception were the same on the two units.
  
 My tentative (tentative as relating SQ changes to technical changes one must be very careful) conclusions are twofold:
  
 1. The transparency improvements are because the pre production prototype needed some hand soldering as some changes were needed. Even though I use special high purity silver solder intended for SMD, this is not as good as the production soldering which is done in an inert nitrogen atmosphere, so soldering can't have any oxides (unlike hand soldering). Even leaded components are soldered this way.
  
 2. The difference between the units are much smaller than changes I have heard as I get used to the sound, so brain break-in is way more important than physical break-in. That said, is the brighter presentation due entirely down to the better transparency? I can't be 100% sure about that; for certain when you improve transparency things do sound brighter. And also for sure when you get noise floor modulation and details are artificially enhanced then it will sound brighter too, and give a false impression of transparency. It can sometimes be very tricky to tell the difference and is one of the problems of sound quality tests. But the way I use to differentiate it is to use a busy track, and if it falls apart when the going gets tough it is not true transparency; in this case the new unit was clearer with very difficult material.
  
 That said, I suspect that the new unit will sound slightly smoother with time.
  
 My real problem is how to persuade Chord that I really do need a new black Dave...


----------



## Crgreen

That's interesting. Can I ask this: do you think the unit will sound smoother with time due to changes in the unit, changes in your hearing, or a combination of the two?


----------



## paulchiu

rob watts said:


> I listened to a fresh brand new Dave against my treasured and somewhat beaten up pre-production unit, that has thousands of hours on the clock.
> 
> The new unit was a bit brighter than mine; but it was also more transparent - particularly with ambient details - I heard some studio reverb put in on Nora Jones that I have not heard before. It seemed to be more transparent when things were loud - but small details and depth perception were the same on the two units.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Rob,
  
 I thought you were trekking the globe with a production DAVE all along.
 Now, has there been any changes to the production DAVE in 2016?
  
 paul


----------



## Rob Watts

crgreen said:


> That's interesting. Can I ask this: do you think the unit will sound smoother with time due to changes in the unit, changes in your hearing, or a combination of the two?


 
 Brain break-in in my experience is when you get two effects - better sensation of sound stage depth and better abilities to perceive the starting and stopping of notes.
  
 On depth, I once added a book shelve,  and depth collapsed. After about a month, the perception of depth came back - its as if my brain learnt the effects of the shelves, and took time to compensate for this. Now we know the brain has the ability to automatically compensate for different rooms and acoustics, so the perception of the acoustic space automatically compensates for changes in acoustic. For example, if you talk to somebody that is 5 feet away, in a large room, the voice is still 5 feet away even when you both move to a small room that is say very bright. The brain computes the acoustic space it is in, then compensates your perception of sound to suit the acoustics you are in. Now this is done very rapidly normally - but I think also that on the long term the brain is developing strategies to compensate. Now this is entirely speculation on my part, but it does make sense that the brain will continue to improve its abilities.
  
 On the perception of starting and stopping of notes, I have also found long term improvements when I change the interpolation filters - better transient timing accuracy does take time to appreciate it. So I make an improvement, and you hear 75% of the improvement immediately. The last 25% or so takes a month or two - its as if the brain has strategies to deal with timing uncertainty, and these need to be changed with time - its almost as if you need to unlearn to deal with timing errors.
  
 But on smoothness, I have never heard anything that could be put down to brain break-in - its bright or smooth and it will determine that immediately. So smoothness changes are due to hardware changes.
  
 With Dave, I have no evidence that it will get smoother or warmer with time - and I suspect that if it does change, it is small.
  


paulchiu said:


> Rob,
> 
> I thought you were trekking the globe with a production DAVE all along.
> Now, has there been any changes to the production DAVE in 2016?
> ...


 
  
 Hmmm - it was the first from the first production batch, but needed a bill of materials (BOM) change, as some components needed changing. So the PCB was full production. There have been no SQ significant changes to PCB or BOM subsequently.
  
 That said, we are talking about small differences here, not something you would notice after a few days, only on a direct AB test.
  
 Rob


----------



## jelt2359

Rob, are there any other units out there (demos, etc) that went through a similar process as yours, needing a BOM change?


----------



## TheAttorney

crgreen said:


> I think that's right. If anyone's worked out how to access the display features with the remote, I'd be interested to know. I'd like to be able to switch between PCM and DSD using the remote.


 

 I also can't get this part to work: Pressing the BAL+/MENU key has no effect. If I first highlight the required function directly on the main unit, only then will the LEFT/RIGHT menu scrolling functions work from the remote.
 The functions that do work are source selection; volume; mute and standby.
  
 I don't think the issue with the remote is too much of a loss in practice because there is a bigger design deficiency IMO: When you select any of the 4 menu options, the selection times out after about 8 seconds after which that option is unhighlighted and the LEFT/RIGHT buttons revert to their default of scrolling of source inputs. I find this really annoying when for example trying to choose the correct phase settimg for the current album - if I pause for a bit too long I untintentionally end up switching the source. Enhancement request for this please Chord people. The phase (and for some the DSD) option are the ones that you regularly want to change.
  
 The above design issue gets worse when using the remote control because its harder to see from afar if the selected option is still selected.
  
 Edit: If the Chord designers are considering my enhancement request, I suggest that the remote ditches the menu/scrolling idea  altogether and uses the many spare buttons to be dedicated to each of the 4 options, so you don't need to watch the display from afar. And also get the DIM button to reduce the brightness of the display please )
  
 On a more positive note, I'm really pleased that DAVE's warm up period, from standby or from cold, does appear to be very short as was posted a while back. It's great not to have to worry about this aspect. I'm not saying that there is no warm up period at all (I haven't compared that closely), but I am saying that if us OCD types want to fret about something, then warm up time is not worth fretting about. Just switch it on and enjoy.


----------



## audionewbi

I don't know whether this is the right place to post this or not but since I have read this thread more than the other chord thread I like to share few things here, hopefully I am not too off the topic.

 While I have not had the luxury to try DAVE I do currently own the MOJO and HUGO and I have extensively tried the TT despite my early bias that I had towards the creation of TT prior to listening to it which had stopped me really paying attention to TT.
 Here are my take on the products mentioned above: I find MOJO an engaging product with one major weakness to me and that weakness is that MOJO has a distinct sound signature that tend to take precedence over the actual recording itself, ie/ MOJO sound signature is always present no matter what I feed it. Whether it is flac, DSD, mp3, aac to me they all sound so similar that it becomes an issue to me as I feel I dont hear the engineering effect of the album but what I am hearing is basically mojo sound signature.
  do not feel the same with HUGO as in with HUGO I have the ability to on occasion know whether the file is lossy/lossless, whether it is recorded well, I feel with recording that recorded with smaller soundstage HUGO is able to portray that and with recording that has a larger soundstage HUGO can sound quiet expansive. With mojo soundstage always feels the same. 
  
 Now enters TT, which really changed thing for me. I could not understand why TT sounded so much different despite having the same main inner core as the HUGO. To me the improvement on lower frequency and ambiance on TT was the most obvious improvement.While I really dont know what lead to such improvement few members who I talked with suspect that TT has better power delivery management and that is what has resulted in improvement of sound.

 So where Am I going with this? My question is will CHORD release a new HUGO based on the new FPGA chip used in Mojo? Or better to ask if we were to assume HUGO was to have the new Sparatan 6 used in Mojo what kind of improvement would we expect to hear?

 Regards
 Moe


----------



## Mython

audionewbi said:


> I don't know whether this is the right place to post this or not but since I have read this thread more than the other chord thread I like to share few things here, hopefully I am not too off the topic.
> 
> While I have not had the luxury to try DAVE I do currently own the MOJO and HUGO and I have extensively tried the TT despite my early bias that I had towards the creation of TT prior to listening to it which had stopped me really paying attention to TT.
> Here are my take on the products mentioned above: I find MOJO an engaging product with one major weakness to me and that weakness is that MOJO has a distinct sound signature that tend to take precedence over the actual recording itself, ie/ MOJO sound signature is always present no matter what I feed it. Whether it is flac, DSD, mp3, aac to me they all sound so similar that it becomes an issue to me as I feel I dont hear the engineering effect of the album but what I am hearing is basically mojo sound signature.
> ...


 
  


Spoiler: slightly off-topic answer (Hugo and Mojo)



 
 TT has a super-capacitor, which Mojo and Hugo do not, so that might contribute to a difference in low-frequency presentation. Super-capacitors are expensive, so Chord wouldn't have incorporated any in the TT if it wasn't worthwhile to do so.
  
  
 As for changing the FPGA chip, in Hugo, I doubt that would make any particular difference to the SQ, unless Rob felt inclined to change the code.
  
 The code on Mojo has a lot in common with Hugo, but the WTA filter is intentionally different:
  


rob watts said:


> Just to correct things - it is a 15T that is used on the Mojo.
> 
> That has 16,640 logic cells and 45 dsp cores. 44 cores are used in Mojo.
> 
> ...


----------



## rgs9200m

Yep, audiodnewbi, I concur. I have the same sonic impressions that you do of my Hugo and my Hugo TT. The TT is a major step up in producing a profound sound. I like the TT so much I don't feel the need to step up to a Dave (probably a mistake, but it's a lot of money). (I have not heard the Mojo.)


----------



## miketlse

mython said:


> My question about multi-channel isn't really because I am an avid fan of multi-channel, but more out of curiosity, since I know (*partly* thanks to an earlier discussion with Romaz) that it is technically possible, and I am curious as to how the soundstage-depth talents of DAVE might be subjectively perceived within the context of a multi-channel configuration. For example, I wonder if it might 'expand' the subjective size of the circular soundstage, or, because of the oddities of multi-channel processing, perhaps have no such influence upon soundstage size (or, I could say 'circular-depth'), or perhaps some other unanticipated influence.
> 
> So...just simple curiosity, above all else.


 
  
 It would certainly be expensive using an array of DAVEs.
 However if there was a digital output board that could split a 5.1 recording into the 6 streams that you could feed into an array of 3 Mojos, that you could use as a proof of concept test bed, to explore the impact on soundstage.
 If the proof of concept was successful, then you could remortgage and buy the full 3 * DAVE setup.


----------



## Rob Watts

jelt2359 said:


> Rob, are there any other units out there (demos, etc) that went through a similar process as yours, needing a BOM change?


 
 None - Chord made a batch of final production PCB's in Spring 2015. They made a micro batch to test it late Spring - I have those PCB's, Chord had a couple of units for demo and test. They got tested in the Summer, when a production BOM was finally released. Then it took to December for me to finish the code to my satisfaction. Production started with the production BOM, so all units that were released with serial nos. are with production BOM's.
  
 Hope that clarifies why my production unit using production PCB's was a little different!
  
 Rob


----------



## bigfatpaulie

For those that have a similar setup to me - DAVE -> Abyss I have a question.
  
 It seems the 'best' setup is a MicroRendu before the DAVE and DHC Spore after the DAVE.  My question is what, in your opinion, has a great impact on sound, the MR or the Spore?  IE, if you were upgrading one fist, which would it be?


----------



## stvc

bigfatpaulie said:


> For those that have a similar setup to me - DAVE -> Abyss I have a question.
> 
> It seems the 'best' setup is a MicroRendu before the DAVE and DHC Spore after the DAVE.  My question is what, in your opinion, has a great impact on sound, the MR or the Spore?  IE, if you were upgrading one fist, which would it be?


 
  
  My Spore still not deliver yet, can't tell anything sorry , but my thinking should be Rendu 1st? Reason is they are so much cheaper than the Spore alone.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

stvc said:


> My Spore still not deliver yet, can't tell anything sorry , but my thinking should be Rendu 1st? Reason is they are so much cheaper than the Spore alone.


 
  
 I'm taking cost out the equation: just straight up which has a bigger impact?
  
 I should also add the MR would be replacing a "regular" PC and the Spore would be replacing the stock Abyss cable.


----------



## paulchiu

bigfatpaulie said:


> For those that have a similar setup to me - DAVE -> Abyss I have a question.
> 
> It seems the 'best' setup is a MicroRendu before the DAVE and DHC Spore after the DAVE.  My question is what, in your opinion, has a great impact on sound, the MR or the Spore?  IE, if you were upgrading one fist, which would it be?


 
  
 As with many things, this is not straightforward.  In order for your DAVE to sound great with microRendu, other parts of your system have to work well when paired with the microRendu, such as computers, routers, switches, and other cables.
 Adding the Spore4 is more straightforward.  Besides adjusting the gain in your DAVE, everything else can stay constant.
  
 For me, the microRendu made a much more noticeable change in the sound than any headphone cable change.  The DAVE through the microRendu has much more resolution and wider imaging.  Improved isolation of instruments, especially in the complex passages.  Vocals are more three dimensional and less congested inside the head.  DSD128 and DSD256 tracks truly shines and approaching the best LP based systems out there.
  
 Paul


----------



## bigfatpaulie

paulchiu said:


> As with many things, this is not straightforward.  In order for your DAVE to sound great with microRendu, other parts of your system have to work well when paired with the microRendu, such as computers, routers, switches, and other cables.
> Adding the Spore4 is more straightforward.  Besides adjusting the gain in your DAVE, everything else can stay constant.
> 
> For me, the microRendu made a much more noticeable change in the sound than any headphone cable change.  The DAVE through the microRendu has much more resolution and wider imaging.  Improved isolation of instruments, especially in the complex passages.  Vocals are more three dimensional and less congested inside the head.  DSD128 and DSD256 tracks truly shines and approaching the best LP based systems out there.
> ...


 
  
 Thank you - this is actually extremely helpful!
  
 Not to flog a dead horse, but it is interesting that something before the DAVE had a more noticeable impact than a cable after the DAVE.


----------



## romaz

bigfatpaulie said:


> For those that have a similar setup to me - DAVE -> Abyss I have a question.
> 
> It seems the 'best' setup is a MicroRendu before the DAVE and DHC Spore after the DAVE.  My question is what, in your opinion, has a great impact on sound, the MR or the Spore?  IE, if you were upgrading one fist, which would it be?


 
 My situation is probably unique and so my response may not apply to all.  The Abyss was _THE_ headphone that first allowed me to look beyond my SR-009.  In fact, I sold my SR-009 with the intention of moving to the Abyss.  I had an Abyss on loan for several months but unfortunately discovered over time that this headphone, in stock form, was unlistenable for prolonged sessions (maybe an hour max) due to issues I had with its hot treble.  For a track or two and especially with live music, no headphone is more spectacular but invariably, I would start to get headaches and it had nothing to do with the Abyss' size or weight.  
  
 I rediscovered the Abyss again after I bought my DAVE and as before, for the first few tracks, I was reminded of how spectacular this headphone can be but ultimately, after 1-2 hours, the headaches returned.  Just too much treble energy for my tastes.  I was convinced it was due to the stock headphone cable and so I bought adapters to fit my Silver Spore4 with the Abyss and low and behold, my treble issues with the Abyss went away.  Even after listening for 5-6 hours straight, no problems whatsoever.  Even though the hot treble had been tamed, it had not been rolled off and a nice sparkle remained.  The presentation is just more relaxed and effortless and yet still fully resolved.  For my tastes, I would not consider the Abyss without the Silver Spore4 but to be fair to the Abyss, I would not consider my HE-1000 or TH-900 without the Silver Spore4 either.  As I am now a proud owner of an Abyss, combined with the Silver Spore4 and this High Fidelity headphone device, I'm not sure I can ask for more.  Perhaps because it's new, I'm listening to it more than my HE-1000 at the present time although for certain types of music (ie acoustical/atmospheric music, certain female vocals, harsh recordings), the HE-1000 remains my preference. 
  
 As for the mR, for $690 (which includes the basic iFi power supply), it's hard to deny what this brings to the party.  This improves everything.  It better showcases the qualities of the DAVE and any and all headphones that you might own.  I would contend that if someone has the means to afford both the DAVE and the Abyss, then they probably have the means to eventually afford both the Silver Spore4 (or Complement4) and the mR.  If you don't have the high-frequency issues that I have with the Abyss, I would probably opt for the mR first.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

Thanks for your (as usual) very insightful response.  
  
 Cost (on both) isn't the obstacle.  I want to get one option, use that one for a bit then add the second.  Yes, I could just order both, but what's the fun in that?  It isn't a question of value, it's a question of which step to take first.
  
 I find the stock Abyss cable grating - it's (sorry to say this) just isn't a very nice cable in my eyes.  I've been using the Abyss with a silver Solv that is obviously better than the JPS cable so a cable change is less dire that I originally presented.  
  
 When I do get a MR, I will likely get a Paul Hynes LPSU with it.


----------



## ddanois

bigfatpaulie said:


> For those that have a similar setup to me - DAVE -> Abyss I have a question.
> 
> It seems the 'best' setup is a MicroRendu before the DAVE and DHC Spore after the DAVE.  My question is what, in your opinion, has a great impact on sound, the MR or the Spore?  IE, if you were upgrading one fist, which would it be?


 

 I've been struggling with the same question and here is where I'm at on the topic...I received my MicroRendu and it was a big improvement over my Aurender N100 so I was satisfied that it needed to stay in my system. I haven't received my Dave yet (2 weeks more and counting) but I had already decided to add new cables so that the Dave could deliver its best. I settled on the Silver Complement 4 for my headphone cable purely due to the reports of weight and rigidity of the Spore4 (I would have preferred the Spore given its reputation) BUT, I did decide to get new XLR interconnects and I opted for the Spore4 for the XLR cables to connect the Dave to my headphone amp. 
  
 I agree with others that the Micro Rendu is a no brainer to add first given the low cost. I purchased it with the iF1 power supply and it's connected into the PS Audio P5 AC regenerator. Not sure how much better it can get but I am interested in experimenting with an upgraded PS to see if it makes it a stronger companion to the Dave when it arrives.


----------



## romaz

bigfatpaulie said:


> When I do get a MR, I will likely get a Paul Hynes LPSU with it.


 
  


ddanois said:


> I agree with others that the Micro Rendu is a no brainer to add first given the low cost. I purchased it with the iF1 power supply and it's connected into the PS Audio P5 AC regenerator. Not sure how much better it can get but I am interested in experimenting with an upgraded PS to see if it makes it a stronger companion to the Dave when it arrives.


 
  
 The mR seems to be doing wonders for the power supply industry and many are now offering custom PSUs for the mR.  It's hard to know what is the absolute best but the PSU that most people are waiting for before committing is the upcoming Uptone Audio LPS-1 that is supposed to start shipping in August.  It will sell for $395 USD and will be designed by John Swensen himself with the mR in mind.  As John designed the mR, I won't be surprised if this PSU ends up being the best or at least as good as the best.  It will be based on supercapacitor technology like the Chord TT.  For those interested, here is the thread on CA:
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/mystery-revealed-uptone-audio-ultracap%99-linear-power-supply-1-a-28609/


----------



## romaz

ddanois said:


> I settled on the Silver Complement 4 for my headphone cable purely due to the reports of weight and rigidity of the Spore4 (I would have preferred the Spore given its reputation) BUT, I did decide to get new XLR interconnects and I opted for the Spore4 for the XLR cables to connect the Dave to my headphone amp.


 
  
 Yes, the Spore4 is heavy and rigid.  I think the Silver Complement4 is a very good alternative.  As an owner of an HE-1000 and former owner of an LCD-4, you might find that you prefer how these headphones sound connected direct to DAVE rather than connected to your GSX-Mk2 or Moon 430HA.  This would not be a bad problem to have since it would mean more money back in your pocket and a much simpler setup but the point is, before you spend a lot of money on Spore4 interconnects, you might want to see how you like the DAVE's integrated headphone amp first.


----------



## Articnoise

bigfatpaulie said:


> For those that have a similar setup to me - DAVE -> Abyss I have a question.
> 
> It seems the 'best' setup is a MicroRendu before the DAVE and DHC Spore after the DAVE.  My question is what, in your opinion, has a great impact on sound, the MR or the Spore?  IE, if you were upgrading one fist, which would it be?


 
  

 I don’t know which one that has the greatest impact on sound. The wait time for DHC cables is usually many months. It will give you plenty of time to get and evaluate the mR first, if ordered at the same time.


----------



## lovethatsound

articnoise said:


> I don’t know which one that has the greatest impact on sound. The wait time for DHC cables is usuallymany months. It will give you plenty of time to get and evaluate the mR first, if ordered at the same time.


If you like the sound of sliver cables,then give Toxic cables,Sliver Widow ago it's alot cheaper than the Sliver Spore,and only about an 8 week wait,you might be in for a big surprise.


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## ddanois

romaz said:


> Yes, the Spore4 is heavy and rigid.  I think the Silver Complement4 is a very good alternative.  As an owner of an HE-1000 and former owner of an LCD-4, you might find that you prefer how these headphones sound connected direct to DAVE rather than connected to your GSX-Mk2 or Moon 430HA.  This would not be a bad problem to have since it would mean more money back in your pocket and a much simpler setup but the point is, before you spend a lot of money on Spore4 interconnects, you might want to see how you like the DAVE's integrated headphone amp first.


 

 Great point...can't wait to see wha the Dave offers directly.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

romaz said:


> The mR seems to be doing wonders for the power supply industry and many are now offering custom PSUs for the mR.  It's hard to know what is the absolute best but the PSU that most people are waiting for before committing is the upcoming Uptone Audio LPS-1 that is supposed to start shipping in August.  It will sell for $395 USD and will be designed by John Swensen himself with the mR in mind.  As John designed the mR, I won't be surprised if this PSU ends up being the best or at least as good as the best.  It will be based on supercapacitor technology like the Chord TT.  For those interested, here is the thread on CA:
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/mystery-revealed-uptone-audio-ultracap%99-linear-power-supply-1-a-28609/


 
  
 This is banana's - it uses FPGA's.  
  
I think this is worth the wait.  Thank you so much for pointing this out to me!!!


----------



## onsionsi

I have a curiosity if someone tried to compare the built in AMP in Dave vs MHA100 with HEK headphone.


----------



## Torq

onsionsi said:


> I have a curiosity if someone tried to compare the built in AMP in Dave vs MHA100 with HEK headphone.


 
  
 I've listened to the MHA100 using the Mojo as a source ... which much more demanding headphones than the HEK ...
  
 ... and I'd take THAT over the MHA100 every time ... DAVE would be no contest at all.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

torq said:


> I've listened to the MHA100 using the Mojo as a source ... which much more demanding headphones than the HEK ...
> 
> ... and I'd take THAT over the MHA100 every time ... DAVE would be no contest at all.


 
  
 I firmly agree.  I had an MHA100 at home for 2 weeks on loan.  It's a very sexy looking unit from afar (a bit cheap up close) but the sound is very lackluster.  An Audio-GD Master 9 + 7 easily leaves the McIntosh behind in all regards (sonically) and the DAVE does the same to the Master stack. 
  
 Maybe if you are thinking of not using the DAC and running it as a just an amp you might be a bit better off, but not likely.  The 'amp' stage in the DAVE sounds better than a GSX MKII, Pass Labs INT-30A or Moon 600i - at least to me - with HD800's, Abyss and HE6's - and I would be shocked if MHA100 could hold a candle to any of those amps.  With or without the HE1k's in the equation. 
  
 I know some may disagree with me (re the 600i or other amps VS DAVE) but that's how I feel, in my experience, based on the qualities that I value.  Please, no pitchforks   It's all IMHO.  YMMV.  TTYL.  BRB.  LUVU.


----------



## paulchiu

onsionsi said:


> I have a curiosity if someone tried to compare the built in AMP in Dave vs MHA100 with HEK headphone.


 
  
 DAVE sounds much better than the head-amp of the McIntosh MHA100.  Not close.
 The Moon 430 HAD with a DAC cost less than the MHA100 and sounds better.
 The Chord Hugo sounds better as well.
  
 Paul


----------



## romaz

onsionsi said:


> I have a curiosity if someone tried to compare the built in AMP in Dave vs MHA100 with HEK headphone.




I have good experience also with the MHA-100 and the HEK. It is like the DAVE in that it incorporates a DAC with a headphone amp but unlike the DAVE, it also incorporates a very good 50 wpc speaker amp (at 8ohms). I thought its built-in headphone amp was quite good, with rich tonality and with the use of an autoformer, you can bias it to drive any headphone load, from an 8ohm IEM to a 600ohm Beyerdynamic T1. At the lower impedance range, it will put out about 1 watt, similar to the DAVE, which will very capably drive the HEK (or Abyss).

This thing is a monstrosity, however, weighing almost 30 lbs. It also runs hot. The DAVE is a much more elegant solution. As has been suggested, the MHA100's built-in DAC is unsurpisingly not in the same league as the DAVE and its DAC sounds flat in comparison. The DAVE's headphone output, to my ears, is tonally richer, faster, more liquid and more nuanced. It's as if you're directly listening to the DAC signal (and of course, that is exactly what you're doing with the DAVE's headphone output). There is an effortless quality to the DAVE's headphone output that I have not heard matched by anything else. Of course, you could bypass the MH100's DAC and headphone amp and use the DAVE to drive its speaker amp, something to consider if you already own the MHA100 but if you're starting from scratch, at $4,500, this would not be my first choice.


----------



## onsionsi

Is it worth to consider MHA100 speaker amp over DAVE amp or still DAVE amp is better one.


----------



## Torq

onsionsi said:


> Is it worth to consider MHA100 speaker amp over DAVE amp or still DAVE amp is better one.


 
  
 You can't drive speakers directly from DAVE.
  
 I found the MHA100 to be an across-the-board poor-value product.  While opinions obviously differ, I didn't care for it driving headphones directly regardless of what was plugged into it or how the transformers were set.  Very easy to get better performance for a lot less money.
  
 If you need to drive speakers, you'll definitely need an additional amp.


----------



## romaz

onsionsi said:


> Is it worth to consider MHA100 speaker amp over DAVE amp or still DAVE amp is better one.


 
 I would agree that you can do better for your money than the MHA100 but I'm guessing you already own it.  Several MHA100 owners have similarly PM'd me who are in your situation.  If you like the way it sounds, that's what matters but if you end up getting the DAVE, I believe you will find that the DAVE outperforms it in every respect and it may become an expensive paperweight unless you find value in the speaker amp.  If you are referring to the upcoming digital amp that Rob is designing for the DAVE, no one has heard this yet except maybe for Rob.  Based on it's design and Rob's high standards, it is unlikely the MHA100 speaker amp will outperform it.


----------



## miketlse

torq said:


> You can't drive speakers directly from DAVE.
> 
> I found the MHA100 to be an across-the-board poor-value product.  While opinions obviously differ, I didn't care for it driving headphones directly regardless of what was plugged into it or how the transformers were set.  Very easy to get better performance for a lot less money.
> 
> If you need to drive speakers, you'll definitely need an additional amp.


 
  
 Could you drive active speakers from DAVE?


----------



## izzard1982

miketlse said:


> Could you drive active speakers from DAVE?


 
 Yes, I'm using it with Dynaudio X14A.


----------



## paulchiu

miketlse said:


> Could you drive active speakers from DAVE?


 
  
 Sure.  There are many good sounding active speakers you can match with the DAVE, from <$1000 models by Audioengine to >$10,000 studio quality models from Genelec.
 I have tried many, including the Genelec 8050B with the DAVE with terrific results.
  
 You can bring your DAVE into many music chains and demo these active speakers.  The DAVE is very convenient for travel.
  
 Paul


----------



## miketlse

paulchiu said:


> You can bring your DAVE into many music chains and demo these active speakers.
> 
> Paul


 
  
 I would be delighted, if I had bought a DAVE yet - mind you it would cost almost as much as the car that I travelled in.


----------



## paulchiu

miketlse said:


> I would be delighted, if I had bought a DAVE yet - mind you it would cost almost as much as the car that I travelled in.


 
  
 lol yes.  it is probably more than most small cars in France, like a Volkswagen Polo.
  
 paul


----------



## onsionsi

romaz said:


> I would agree that you can do better for your money than the MHA100 but I'm guessing you already own it.  Several MHA100 owners have similarly PM'd me who are in your situation.  If you like the way it sounds, that's what matters but if you end up getting the DAVE, I believe you will find that the DAVE outperforms it in every respect and it may become an expensive paperweight unless you find value in the speaker amp.  If you are referring to the upcoming digital amp that Rob is designing for the DAVE, no one has heard this yet except maybe for Rob.  Based on it's design and Rob's high standards, it is unlikely the MHA100 speaker amp will outperform it.




Yes you are alright I looked to a good AMP to HEK then I decided to buy MHA100 from couple of days and I bought it based on a praising to it from audiophile in this forum. 
Many reviewers said that the built in DAC in MHA100 is decent but it can't reach to the level of chord hugo, total dac, dave and Bricasti M1 SE.
One more thing, I found the Yggdrasil is a good DAC so, do you think it is outperform the MHA100 built in DAC by a vastly margin. 
As far as I know you tried a speaker amp in MHA100 and you appreciated the sound from it over the one came from autoformers so, I thought this speaker amp may outperform the built in one in DAVE.


----------



## Torq

onsionsi said:


> Yes you are alright I looked to a good AMP to HEK then I decided to buy MHA100 from couple of days and I bought it based on a praising to it from audiophile in this forum.
> Many reviewers said that the built in DAC in MHA100 is decent but it can't reach to the level of chord hugo, total dac, dave and Bricasti M1 SE.
> One more thing, I found the Yggdrasil is a good DAC so, do you think it is outperform the MHA100 built in DAC by a vastly margin.
> As far as I know you tried a speaker amp in MHA100 and you appreciated the sound from it over the one came from autoformers so, I thought this speaker amp may outperform the built in one in DAVE.


 

 Yggdrasil is way better than the DAC in the MHA100.
  
 But then so is the much cheaper Mojo or, for that matter, the basic Schiit Bifrost.
  
 The MHA100 DAC is, in no way, on any plane, anywhere vaguely close to the Hugo, TotalDAC, DAVE or Bricasti units.  I'm in the process of a huge evaluation of such DACs, including the McIntosh begin discussed here, so I've got some recent hands-on (ears-on) experience with all of these units.


----------



## x RELIC x

I would say as an observer of Torq's observations he has been objective and reasonable throughout his auditions. It's a HUGE undertaking and he has reported very useful content to his thread regarding different DACs, regardless if one will agree or disagree with his findings.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

torq said:


> Yggdrasil is way better than the DAC in the MHA100.
> 
> But then so is the much cheaper Mojo or, for that matter, the basic Schiit Bifrost.
> 
> The MHA100 DAC is, in no way, on any plane, anywhere vaguely close to the Hugo, TotalDAC, DAVE or Bricasti units.  I'm in the process of a huge evaluation of such DACs, including the McIntosh begin discussed here, so I've got some recent hands-on (ears-on) experience with all of these units.


 
  
 Agreed.  The MHA100 DAC seems to be like a an inexpensive afterthought/addon in the unit.  Pretty much anything will match or best it.


----------



## romaz

onsionsi said:


> Yes you are alright I looked to a good AMP to HEK then I decided to buy MHA100 from couple of days and I bought it based on a praising to it from audiophile in this forum.
> Many reviewers said that the built in DAC in MHA100 is decent but it can't reach to the level of chord hugo, total dac, dave and Bricasti M1 SE.
> One more thing, I found the Yggdrasil is a good DAC so, do you think it is outperform the MHA100 built in DAC by a vastly margin.
> As far as I know you tried a speaker amp in MHA100 and you appreciated the sound from it over the one came from autoformers so, I thought this speaker amp may outperform the built in one in DAVE.


 
 Yes, I would agree.  The DAC in the MHA100 is the weakest link and all of those other DACs you mentioned should easily outperform it.  Everyone will have their opinion but for me, aside from the recording, the DAC is the most critical part of a digital audio chain.  If it's not right at the DAC, then you can't make up for it with a good amp, cables, headphones or speakers.  I think those who own a DAVE understand this very well.
  
 While I thought the built-in headphone amp in the MHA100 was pretty good, my opinion is that the DAVE's headphone amp performs at a much higher level and this is because the DAC and headphone signal are "one."  I have never heard the HEK sound better than directly connected to the DAVE.
  
 As for the MHA's speaker amp, as Torq has mentioned, the DAVE does NOT have a built-in speaker amp and so there is nothing to compare.  Rob is designing a special external speaker amp that will attach to the DAVE using digital cables that will have the same transparency as the DAVE's headphone output.  Once you have heard how good the DAVE's headphone output sounds, then you can imagine how good this speaker amp might sound. That is one key reason why this amp is expected to be so special.  While I have not heard it, I have a hard time imagining that the MHA100's speaker amp can compete with it but it would be unfair to make any definitive statements at this time.


----------



## romaz

bigfatpaulie said:


> Agreed.  The MHA100 DAC seems to be like a an inexpensive afterthought/addon in the unit.  Pretty much anything will match or best it.


 
 I think the MHA100 plays to the strengths and weakness of its creator.  McIntosh is better known for their preamps and amps than their DACs.  I think the DAC in the MHA100 is as good a DAC as they know how to make.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

romaz said:


> I think the MHA100 plays to the strengths and weakness of its creator.  McIntosh is better known for their preamps and amps than their DACs.  I think the DAC in the MHA100 is as good a DAC as they know how to make.


 
  
 Haha!  Don't let us know how you feel about the D100   It's okay, we share the same opinion.
  
 Anyway, @onsionsi I think the consensus is that the DAVE outperforms the MHA100 as a DAC/amp combo across the board for headphone use.


----------



## romaz

bigfatpaulie said:


> Haha!  Don't let us know how you feel about the D100   It's okay, we share the same opinion.
> 
> Anyway, @onsionsi I think the consensus is that the DAVE outperforms the MHA100 as a DAC/amp combo across the board for headphone use.


 
 Actually, I wasn't trying to be funny.  I read that they use a variation of essentially the same DAC across their entire product line and so it would seem that this is as good a DAC as they know how to make.


----------



## romaz

onsionsi said:


> As far as I know you tried a speaker amp in MHA100 and you appreciated the sound from it over the one came from autoformers so, I thought this speaker amp may outperform the built in one in DAVE.


 
 Much has been made about the autoformers McIntosh uses.  Autoformers are used for a variety of reasons but in the MHA100, they are used to adjust the headphone amp's output impedance down to as low as 8 ohms.  The output impedance of most headphone amps seems to range anywhere from 0.5 ohms at best (i.e. GSX Mk2) to about 50 ohms at worst and so some would look at 8 ohms as being decent.
  
 While this is low enough to drive a challenging load like the HEK, which has an input impedance of 35 ohms, this isn't ideal because this leaves you with a damping factor of only about 4 when >8 is supposed to be ideal and the higher, the better.  As many know, too low of a damping factor leads to many problems including inadequate dynamics, unpredictable frequency response and poor control leading to boomy/flabby bass and is one metric where solid state amps often are superior to tube amps.  For the HEK to sound its best, you really need a source with an output impedance of 4 or less.  Some IEMs (Etymotic HF5) have input impedances as low as 16 ohms and so an ideal headphone source should have an output impedance of <2 to be able to drive anything.  Consequently, the MHA100 will struggle to drive many planars and IEMs to their best potential.
  
 This is another reason why almost no other DACs (or preamps) can drive headphones directly (especially planars) and why the DAVE is so special.  Most DACs/preamps start to boast when their output impedance approaches down to about 100 ohms (and to be fair, this is as low as they need to go to drive just about any amplifier which is what DACs and preamps are designed to drive).  An Esoteric CD player, for example, gets down to about 120.  Pass Labs' best preamp also gets down to 120.  MSB's best DAC, the Select II gets down to about 70.  Same thing goes for the Schiit Yggy.  The TotalDac d1-monobloc I used to own had a remarkably low output impedance of about 18 ohms which is why this is one of the few DACs that can drive headphones, even planars directly although with the HEK, this amounted to a damping factor of only 2.  What about the DAVE?  Not only does its headphone output directly tap the DAC signal like the TotalDac but Chord also lists an output impedance of 0.0055 ohms!  Game over.  Because of short circuit protection built into it, it looks as if the damping factor was capped at 145 but you get the point.  Probably only an FPGA DAC can achieve this but this is why the DAVE directly can optimally drive any single headphone load better than anything else.


----------



## TSAVJason

romaz said:


> Much has been made about the autoformers McIntosh uses.  Autoformers are used for a variety of reasons but in the MHA100, they are used to adjust the headphone amp's output impedance down to as low as 8 ohms.  The output impedance of most headphone amps seems to range anywhere from 0.5 ohms at best (i.e. GSX Mk2) to about 50 ohms at worst and so some would look at 8 ohms as being decent.
> 
> While this is low enough to drive a challenging load like the HEK, which has an input impedance of 35 ohms, this isn't ideal because this leaves you with a damping factor of only about 4 when >8 is supposed to be ideal and the higher, the better.  As many know, too low of a damping factor leads to many problems including inadequate dynamics, unpredictable frequency response and poor control leading to boomy/flabby bass and is one metric where solid state amps often are superior to tube amps.  For the HEK to sound its best, you really need a source with an output impedance of 4 or less.  Some IEMs ([COLOR=070707]Etymotic HF5) have input impedances as low as 16 ohms and so an ideal headphone source should have an output impedance of <2 to be able to drive anything.  [/COLOR]Consequently, the MHA100 will struggle to drive many planars and IEMs to their best potential.
> 
> This is another reason why almost no other DACs (or preamps) can drive headphones directly (especially planars) and why the DAVE is so special.  Most DACs/preamps start to boast when their output impedance approaches down to about 100 ohms (and to be fair, this is as low as they need to go to drive just about any amplifier which is what DACs and preamps are designed to drive).  An Esoteric CD player, for example, gets down to about 120.  Pass Labs' best preamp also gets down to 120.  MSB's best DAC, the Select II gets down to about 70.  Same thing goes for the Schiit Yggy.  The TotalDac d1-monobloc I used to own had a remarkably low output impedance of about 18 ohms which is why this is one of the few DACs that can drive headphones, even planars directly although with the HEK, this amounted to a damping factor of only 2.  What about the DAVE?  Not only does its headphone output directly tap the DAC signal like the TotalDac but Chord also lists an output impedance of 0.0055 ohms!  Game over.  Because of short circuit protection built into it, it looks as if the damping factor was capped at 145 but you get the point.  Probably only an FPGA DAC can achieve this but this is why the DAVE directly can optimally drive any single headphone load better than anything else.


 I think I'd like to test these statements. I have a copy of nearly every high quality planar at home or in my showroom. I also have the MHA100 & DAVE in my showroom. Give me the models of headphones you believe the MHA100 would have an issue driving. I'd like to test this with my headphone aficionado friends and I. Also would you mind elaborating on impedance as you wrote 8ohms. I'm confused by that. The speaker out is an autoformer. This is designed to look at loads as low as 2ohms and has no issues out to 16ohms. The headphone output has to gain stages, normal - high. It's been said in many credible articles that the McIntosh can drive just about any dynamic and planar headphone. So far, I've only tried MrSpeakers, HE-X, HE1000, and every Audeze. I'm very interested in knowing more on this topic so please share so I can do further comparisons.


----------



## paulchiu

tsavjason said:


> I think I'd like to test these statements. I have a copy of nearly every high quality planar at home or in my showroom. I also have the MHA100 & DAVE in my showroom. Give me the models of headphones you believe the MHA100 would have an issue driving. I'd like to test this with my headphone aficionado friends and I.


 
  
 Do you have Sennheiser HE-1 in your showroom?


----------



## TSAVJason

paulchiu said:


> Do you have Sennheiser HE-1 in your showroom?


 No but I do have a prototype at home. I am a Sennheiser dealer and have nearly every current model too.


----------



## paulchiu

tsavjason said:


> No but I do have a prototype at home. I am a Sennheiser dealer and have nearly every current model too.


 
  
 Prototype?  Is this pre-production?


----------



## TSAVJason

paulchiu said:


> Prototype?  Is this pre-production?


 It's labeled "prototype" it's not mine it belongs to Sennheiser. Sadly it leaves here soon. It's kind of cool but honesty if I had that kind of money I don't think I'm gadget crazy enough to buy one. But it's an electrostat ....so not relevant to my question


----------



## romaz

tsavjason said:


> I think I'd like to test these statements. I have a copy of nearly every high quality planar at home or in my showroom. I also have the MHA100 & DAVE in my showroom. Give me the models of headphones you believe the MHA100 would have an issue driving. I'd like to test this with my headphone aficionado friends and I. Also would you mind elaborating on impedance as you wrote 8ohms. I'm confused by that. The speaker out is an autoformer. This is designed to look at loads as low as 2ohms and has no issues out to 16ohms. The headphone output has to gain stages, normal - high. It's been said in many credible articles that the McIntosh can drive just about any dynamic and planar headphone. So far, I've only tried MrSpeakers, HE-X, HE1000, and every Audeze. I'm very interested in knowing more on this topic so please share so I can do further comparisons.


 
 Sure, give it a go and hear for yourself.
  
 I think the MHA100 will drive anything but not ideally.  You can drive an HE1000 to loud volumes, for example, with a 100 ohm source but it wouldn't sound as dynamic and controlled as a 1 ohm source.  Your frequency response with a 100 ohm source also won't be as flat and you will also likely notice higher distortion.
  
 Just to clarify, the McIntosh's autoformer is designed only for the headphone amp, not the speaker amp and McIntosh is very clear about this.  As for the output impedance of the headphone amp of the MHA100, just check Mcintosh's website and you will see that depending on the autoformer setting, it is either 8-40 ohms, 40-150 ohms, or 150-600 ohms.  As you have a DAVE, just check the user's manual and you will see its listed output impedance of 0.0055 ohms.  Now try and find any other commercially available source with an output impedance that low.  The only thing that will come close will be a good solid state speaker amp.  As for the output impedance of the MHA100's speaker amp, McIntosh doesn't specify it but since most speaker loads are 8 ohms and you state this amp is stable down to 2 ohm loads, then you can guess it will be well below 1 ohm.  As an example, the Moon 600i mentioned earlier has an output impedance of 0.03 ohms which in theory should drive a speaker load as low as 1 ohm.
  
 As for other headphones to try, in addition to the HE-1000, consider listening also to your HE-X (25 ohms) and the EnigmaAcoustics Dharma D1000 (26 ohms).  You can compare the MHA100 against the DAVE but it won't be an apples to apples comparison because there will be other factors at play beside impedance.  For a truer apples to apples comparison, listen to any of these headphones on the MHA100 but at different impedance settings using the autoformer (low, medium and high) and you should hear a fairly noticeable improvement as you go from the high setting to the low.  I think the fact that McIntosh even has these different impedance settings should tell you that impedance matching is important.  As for the idealized 8:1 ratio (damping factor = 8) between input impedance of a transducer and output impedance or a source, you probably understand this isn't a hard and fast rule and that some things can still sound decent at 4:1 or 2:1 or maybe even 1:1 but when you start comparing against something like 16:1, as an example, I'd be surprised if you didn't hear a cleaner, more effortless and controlled presentation with the higher ratio.


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## Rob Watts

There is a typo in the handbook - Dave's OP impedance is actually 0.055 ohms - the damping factor is correct though. This is measured at the headphone OP, post connector.
  
 Rob


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## rkt31

romaz said:


> Much has been made about the autoformers McIntosh uses.  Autoformers are used for a variety of reasons but in the MHA100, they are used to adjust the headphone amp's output impedance down to as low as 8 ohms.  The output impedance of most headphone amps seems to range anywhere from 0.5 ohms at best (i.e. GSX Mk2) to about 50 ohms at worst and so some would look at 8 ohms as being decent.
> 
> While this is low enough to drive a challenging load like the HEK, which has an input impedance of 35 ohms, this isn't ideal because this leaves you with a damping factor of only about 4 when >8 is supposed to be ideal and the higher, the better.  As many know, too low of a damping factor leads to many problems including inadequate dynamics, unpredictable frequency response and poor control leading to boomy/flabby bass and is one metric where solid state amps often are superior to tube amps.  For the HEK to sound its best, you really need a source with an output impedance of 4 or less.  Some IEMs (Etymotic HF5) have input impedances as low as 16 ohms and so an ideal headphone source should have an output impedance of <2 to be able to drive anything.  Consequently, the MHA100 will struggle to drive many planars and IEMs to their best potential.
> 
> This is another reason why almost no other DACs (or preamps) can drive headphones directly (especially planars) and why the DAVE is so special.  Most DACs/preamps start to boast when their output impedance approaches down to about 100 ohms (and to be fair, this is as low as they need to go to drive just about any amplifier which is what DACs and preamps are designed to drive).  An Esoteric CD player, for example, gets down to about 120.  Pass Labs' best preamp also gets down to 120.  MSB's best DAC, the Select II gets down to about 70.  Same thing goes for the Schiit Yggy.  The TotalDac d1-monobloc I used to own had a remarkably low output impedance of about 18 ohms which is why this is one of the few DACs that can drive headphones, even planars directly although with the HEK, this amounted to a damping factor of only 2.  What about the DAVE?  Not only does its headphone output directly tap the DAC signal like the TotalDac but Chord also lists an output impedance of 0.0055 ohms!  Game over.  Because of short circuit protection built into it, it looks as if the damping factor was capped at 145 but you get the point.  Probably only an FPGA DAC can achieve this but this is why the DAVE directly can optimally drive any single headphone load better than anything else.


 
 yes, this is the specialty of chord dacs. extremely low impedance allows dave and other chord dacs to drive even the lowest impedance headphones and even some 8 ohm horns directly. but alas some still  prefer the fat bass of high output impedance amps.


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## romaz

rkt31 said:


> yes, this is the specialty of chord dacs. extremely low impedance allows dave and other chord dacs to drive even the lowest impedance headphones and even some 8 ohm horns directly. but alas some still  prefer the fat bass of high output impedance amps.


 
 I am very open to trying this for myself.  I am having a custom set of speakers which incorporate a single 8 ohm Alnico driver made for me that have a 95dB sensitivity and can be driven sublimely with 1 watt. If I can use the DAVE to drive those directly, I will be extremely happy.


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## LouisArmstrong

Although at totally different price points - I would appreciate if anyone with BOTH the Dave and the Yggdrasil can compare and comment - after all, the latter is said to be comparable to DACs of many times its price, but I have been seriously in doubt. I don't think Yggdrasil should even be  in the Summit-fi category as it is Schitt at best.


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## jelt2359

louisarmstrong said:


> Although at totally different price points - I would appreciate if anyone with BOTH the Dave and the Yggdrasil can compare and comment - after all, the latter is said to be comparable to DACs of many times its price, but I have been seriously in doubt. I don't think Yggdrasil should even be  in the Summit-fi category as it is Schitt at best.


 
 I have both, but I have neither BHSE nor 009 so I'm not sure it would be relevant to you.
  
 Also, I have been primarily using the DAVE as a dac+headamp, whereas the Yggy is only a dac.


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## LouisArmstrong

jelt2359 said:


> I have both, but I have neither BHSE nor 009 so I'm not sure it would be relevant to you.
> 
> Also, I have been primarily using the DAVE as a dac+headamp, whereas the Yggy is only a dac.


 

 Thanks - any comparison using headphone or speakers system is welcome.


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## lovethatsound

louisarmstrong said:


> Thanks - any comparison using headphone or speakers system is welcome.


Some one has already done that comparison on this thread,I can't remember who did it,but it is on here somewhere.I remember them saying that the yggy wasn't in the same league as the Dave, hope that helps you out.


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## TheAttorney

I have compared Yggy and DAVE to the BHSE/009.
 You can get the details with the search function.
  
 In short, I felt they both shared a broadly similar neutral sound signature, but DAVE did everything better than Yggy in SQ terms, but not by as big a margin as the price tags would suggest.
 Others have said that the difference is much bigger. I found that Yggy was very sensitive to power cord and (with my Nagra CDC source) extremely sensitive to digital input cables. I was comparing the best Yggy cable combinations to come to my conclusion.


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## rkt31

I don't think one can attach a headphone directly to yggy . so how dave is comparable to yggy I don't understand. only way to compare both is by using a same preamp which defeats the purpose of dave being more direct and transparent. one way I find is to attach 600ohm headphone directly to rca of yggy and dave.


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## rkt31

dave when fed directly to power amp for a speaker system is the best for transparency. one member is using dave directly with benchmark ahb2 power amp in low gain mode and found the combo very transparent with kef reference speakers.


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## Torq

rkt31 said:


> I don't think one can attach a headphone directly to yggy . so how dave is comparable to yggy I don't understand. only way to compare both is by using a same preamp which defeats the purpose of dave being more direct and transparent. one way I find is to attach 600ohm headphone directly to rca of yggy and dave.


 

 True enough ...
  
 But, despite DAVE being more transparent from it's direct headphone output than via an external amplifier - I still preferred listening to it via an amplifier with two out of three of my favorite headphones (Abyss and LCD-4 I preferred with additional amplification, HD800S I liked better right out of the DAVE).  The very minor loss in transparency was more than compensated for in other areas.


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## rkt31

I may be wrong but imho the correct way to compare the DACs are speakers not headphone because speakers can correctly portray the depth and imaging . and even more watching movies in 2 channel through the DACs is a even better test.


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## Torq

rkt31 said:


> I may be wrong but imho the correct way to compare the DACs are speakers not headphone because speakers can correctly portray the depth and imaging . and even more watching movies in 2 channel through the DACs is a even better test.


 

 If you're comparing the DACs on a pure-DAC-performance level, sure.  Though it's largely irrelevant if you're not actually going to be using speakers.
  
 When I was comparing them I did use both headphone and speaker systems.  And obviously the speaker system does imaging in a way that headphones don't, so it was certainly useful there.  But regardless of what I decide to buy as a result of my extensive, broad, auditioning, my use case for this purchase will purely be for headphone listening.
  
 I wouldn't use movies as a source for any kind of audio-quality comparison, personally- but that's just me.


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## Sonic77

rob watts said:


> There is a typo in the handbook - Dave's OP impedance is actually 0.055 ohms - the damping factor is correct though. This is measured at the headphone OP, post connector.
> 
> Rob


 

 That means that the handbook is 99.9% correct, I measured it with my ears and a ruler


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## rkt31

the dac which offers more drama and emotional attachment while watching movies imho that dac is more transparent and closer to real life sounds.


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## Torq

rkt31 said:


> the dac which offers more drama and emotional attachment while watching movies imho that dac is more transparent and closer to real life sounds.


 

 I wouldn't argue with that, to the extent, at least, that you actually know that what you _think_ you're hearing is what you're _really_ hearing.
  
 For example, the sound you hear when a door is being slammed is, more often than people might like to think, achieved not by recording the actual door slamming but by someone slapping a wet newspaper on a wooden table (something I've seen first-hand).
  
 There's a lot more post-production stuff that happens of that nature, and the bigger the movie budget the more it seems to occur.
  
 But that doesn't invalidate your point in general.
  
 Just, personally, I don't find a whole lot of "real life sounds" in movies that affect me in that way,.  The story does; the actor's portrayal of their character does, the score will, but otherwise not so much (again, for me).
  
 Since I'm evaluating DACs for use in feeding a headphone system, that's really the only thing I need to evaluate.  Any data beyond that is academic, and doesn't affect my choices, if it's not going to be relevant to how I'm actually using the component.  If I was  writing general-purpose reviews it would be very different.  But I'm not.  My DAC-evaluation (in another thread) is purely for me, purely for headphone listening, and I'm only including any speaker evaluation at all because it was, for the most part, easy to do.


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## romaz

rkt31 said:


> dave when fed directly to power amp for a speaker system is the best for transparency. one member is using dave directly with benchmark ahb2 power amp in low gain mode and found the combo very transparent with kef reference speakers.


 
 I'm not sure I agree with this, at least not with the DAVE.  With the DAVE's headphone output, you are listening directly to the DAC signal and from the input to the output, there is only a single op-amp in the chain.  As soon as you add any speaker amp, regardless of how transparent you think it might sound, you will be degrading transparency.  This will be degraded further with the legnth of speaker cable you use and the crossovers that are present in any KEF speaker.  Headphones, on the other hand often using much shorter cables and are crossover-less.  This will be better addressed when Rob's digital speaker amp gets released but until then, listening on headphones will be more transparent than listening through speakers.


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## rkt31

actually this was power amp vs integrated amp or preamp not headphone vs speakers. in my earlier post I already posted about my preference for speakers. even though headphones may offer better transparency but for me speakers offer better imaging and depth .


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## romaz

rkt31 said:


> I may be wrong but imho the correct way to compare the DACs are speakers not headphone because speakers can correctly portray the depth and imaging . and even more watching movies in 2 channel through the DACs is a even better test.


 
 My opinion is that since headphones and speakers do certain things better than the other, they both should be used if you are going to be thorough in your evaluation.  Here are Rob's words and I would agree with him:
  
 "The biggest problem that headphones have is much poorer depth perception than loudspeakers - but on the plus side, they often have better inner detail." 
  
 Bob Katz, the well renowned recording mixer masters with calibrated headphones and not speakers.  Many others do as well.
  
 Movies are great for testing dynamics but not the best for assessing tone and timbre or even soundstage because the sounds your hear are often contrived and even computer generated.  There's just no reference to compare to whereas with a live recording of an event that you personally attended, it becomes very easy to know what is missing.


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## shuttlepod

romaz said:


> I'm not sure I agree with this, at least not with the DAVE.  With the DAVE's headphone output, you are listening directly to the DAC signal and from the input to the output, there is only a single op-amp in the chain.  As soon as you add any speaker amp, regardless of how transparent you think it might sound, you will be degrading transparency.  This will be degraded further with the legnth of speaker cable you use and the crossovers that are present in any KEF speaker.  Headphones, on the other hand often using much shorter cables and are crossover-less.  This will be better addressed when Rob's digital speaker amp gets released but until then, listening on headphones will be more transparent than listening through speakers.


 

 I didn't think there was any question regarding the higher degree of resolution and transparency one gets when listening to great headphones vs. great speakers. Even with all of Roy's good points above, as soon as you put a listening room in the equation, you are going to lose a fair amount of the transparency you get with headphones. Of course speakers have the advantage over headphones in terms of natural imaging and physical impact, and one may subjectively prefer one over the other. But headphones win decisively in terms of pure resolution and "hearing in" to a recording. 
  
 I now see rkt31 has clarified his (or her) earlier post. Agree with rkt31 on the advantages of speakers with imaging and depth. And once Rob and Chord come out with their new amp, hopefully we'll see how far the boundaries of transparency can be pushed with a power amp in the chain.


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## romaz

rkt31 said:


> actually this was power amp vs integrated amp or preamp not headphone vs speakers. in my earlier post I already posted about my preference for speakers. even though headphones may offer better transparency but for me speakers offer better imaging and depth .


 
 I understand.  The gap is narrowing between good speakers and headphones, imo.  These days, I seem to prefer speakers more also for the same reason that most people prefer them but as my preference is for low power amps driving high-efficiency single-driver crossover-less speakers, the inner detail seems to be all there.  At the same time, with something like the Abyss, while the soundstage will never be as good as speakers, they image incredibly well.  When I'm fully engaged with either one, I don't find myself wishing for the other.  As you've stated, in the end, once the evaluation process is finished and you've settled into your system, what is most important is the emotional attachment and I find that depending on circumstances, both speakers and headphones can be equally enjoyable.  It is, after all, the music and not the equipment that matters.


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## shuttlepod

I'm curious about how people with access to both high quality headphones and high quality speaker systems listen to music. I am finding that I am drawn to listening to large scale symphonic music on headphones and more intimate music on speakers. That may sound counterintuitive. For me, the gap between the concert hall experience with a large symphony orchestra and the playback experience, even with a system that is capable of really energizing a room with full sound, is still quite large. So there is a realism deficit when listening to these large pieces in my big rig. With headphones, I can really hear the inner detail on well recorded symphonic music and get lost in the sound. It gives me more insight into the composer's and conductor's intent. With smaller scale music, whether it's a jazz trio or woodwind quintet or alt rock, the realism quotient can be quite high as I can visualize and feel performers in the room. Of course these are generalizations and I can still thrill to large scale music on my speakers and small scale music on headphones.
  
 Do others share this general bias in listening or am I an outlier?


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## paulchiu

shuttlepod said:


> I'm curious about how people with access to both high quality headphones and high quality speaker systems listen to music. I am finding that I am drawn to listening to large scale symphonic music on headphones and more intimate music on speakers. That may sound counterintuitive. For me, the gap between the concert hall experience with a large symphony orchestra and the playback experience, even with a system that is capable of really energizing a room with full sound, is still quite large. So there is a realism deficit when listening to these large pieces in my big rig. With headphones, I can really hear the inner detail on well recorded symphonic music and get lost in the sound. It gives me more insight into the composer's and conductor's intent. With smaller scale music, whether it's a jazz trio or woodwind quintet or alt rock, the realism quotient can be quite high as I can visualize and feel performers in the room. Of course these are generalizations and I can still thrill to large scale music on my speakers and small scale music on headphones.
> 
> Do others share this general bias in listening or am I an outlier?


 
  
  
 You are not alone and here is the forum where many share your experience.  I have separate rooms in my home for speakers and headphones.  In my office, I have both.  I usually play my large speakers when friends are over.  Mainly so they can all enjoy the music.  When I personally savor my music, it most always will be with my favorite DAC/Amp/headphone.  Currently in the market, there are extraordinary DACs, amps and headphones.  The progress of speakers is not comparable, at least in the price zones for personal listening.
  
 Over a year ago at one of the best audio salons in New York, I auditioned the Nagra HD DAC with TH900 and my Macbook Pro.  In the same room were 2 pairs of speakers connected to systems (both analog and digital) worth a million.  After an hour of listening to both, I was surprised that I prefer the sound from the head-amp and TH900.  Yes, I do not have the imaging or tactile connection with the music when using the headphone.  Yes, the headphone can get warm, uncomfortable or restrictive.  These aside, the resolution and intimacy afforded by the TH900 and Nagra were overwhelming.  The million dollar speakers-system in an exquisite sound room could not lure me away from the unique personal soundscape I enjoyed.  It was not about the money!
  
 I purchased the Nagra following that day.
  
 Similar thing happened to me this past year when I added the great DAVE.
  
 Paul


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## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> I'm curious about how people with access to both high quality headphones and high quality speaker systems listen to music. I am finding that I am drawn to listening to large scale symphonic music on headphones and more intimate music on speakers. That may sound counterintuitive. For me, the gap between the concert hall experience with a large symphony orchestra and the playback experience, even with a system that is capable of really energizing a room with full sound, is still quite large. So there is a realism deficit when listening to these large pieces in my big rig. With headphones, I can really hear the inner detail on well recorded symphonic music and get lost in the sound. It gives me more insight into the composer's and conductor's intent. With smaller scale music, whether it's a jazz trio or woodwind quintet or alt rock, the realism quotient can be quite high as I can visualize and feel performers in the room. Of course these are generalizations and I can still thrill to large scale music on my speakers and small scale music on headphones.
> 
> Do others share this general bias in listening or am I an outlier?


 
 I know what you're saying, Jon.  I gave up long ago trying to recreate to scale the full experience of a symphony orchestra on speakers.  This is where a $500,000 system comes in with megawatt amplification and a pair of giant Wilson XLFs or Focal Grand Utopias and even then, it's not the same and so I'm content to simulate it in the more intimate setting of my headphones and like you, with headphones, I do feel I can better glean the smallest details better.  With a small 4 string quartet or jazz trio, and I have personal recordings I have made of such concerts performed at my home, my speakers are more capable of transporting me back to the night of the performance because small events like these are within the grasp of what my 2-channel speaker setup can convincingly convey.


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## LouisArmstrong

How is Chord Dave paired with HE1000? Any thoughts?


----------



## shuttlepod

I guess it's time for the next installment of the High Fidelity Cables chronicles (seems strange but there does not appear to be a separate thread on head-fi covering HFC products). Over the last week I've been auditioning 1) the MC-0.5 Wave Guide, which is the small device you plug into an unused outlet, and 2) a pair of RCA magnetic adapters.  
  
 I'll be buying both.
  
 I've owned one of the HFC CT-1E interconnects for over two years, so I was already acquainted with HFC products. I've been using this IC between my DAVE and my Crayon CFA 1.2 integrated amp to very good effect. But I was curious about the impact of the Wave Guide and the adapters, particularly on my analog system. 
  
 Frankly, it's been difficult to evaluate the impact of the HFC products on my digital system. I've only owned my DAVE for a few weeks. Everything I listen to with DAVE is, by no small margin, much better than I’ve ever heard it in my system. The quantum leap in digital sound quality is overwhelming my brain’s ability to discriminate. In addition, simple A-B comparisons with HFC products are not possible because the magnetization (or de-magnetization) of the system takes time. So I'm going to pass on drawing conclusions for now. What I can say is that the HFC products sure aren't hurting anything or introducing a coloration, as far as I can tell. They do not seem to mess with the frequency spectrum.
  
 With analog, my main system has been pretty stable for 2+ years and I can more readily hear changes. All of my listening on the analog side has been with my speaker system. 
  
 I first introduced the adapters at the tail end of my phono cable, where it enters my phono stage, and the RCA outputs of my phono stage where my Wywires Gold interconnects run from phono stage to integrated amp. What I heard, after waiting 24 hours for magnetization to take effect, was greater transparency, openness, and sharper transients. Vocals and percussion were better delineated in space. I wouldn't characterize the improvement as huge, but it was clearly audible and definitely increased my enjoyment.
  
 I then took out the adapters, put in the Wave Guide in an unused plug at my wall outlet, right next to the power cable going to my Audience power conditioner on my dedicated circuit, and waited the obligatory 24 hours. I heard across-the-board improvements in the fullness, richness, weight, and density of the music. Everything, and I mean everything, sounded more alive. Music was more vibrant and vivid. I would say there was a bit more transparency, as I could hear into a recording with more ease, but unlike the adapters, transparency or separation was not the primary impression at all. At the same time, I found the music to sound more relaxed. I turned up Joni M’s Hissing of Summer Lawns a couple notches on the volume dial, and that’s a record where Joni’s voice can push the boundaries of what’s comfortable. Relative to the adapters, I would say that the overall positive effects were greater with the Wave Guide. For $300, this is a no-brainer. 
  
 Next up: both adapters and Wave Guide in my analog system. Best of both worlds? I would say yes. Any hint of stridency or harshness has been banished. The transparency of the adapters is married to the tone and richness of the Wave Guide. Mellow records sound even more mellow than usual, as if time was a little bit slower. On the other hand, a frenetic semi-free jazz record like Dave Holland’s Conference of the Birds sounds crazy frenetic and fast, with incredible bass clarity for Holland’s virtuosic playing. I’m kind of a tone freak, and tone is really robust and vivid. This is clearly the best I've ever heard my analog system sound.
  
 My best guess is that the benefits I'm hearing with analog very likely exist with digital. 
  
 Two pairs of adapters cost $550. A single Wave Guide is $300. Good value, in my opinion. 
  
 I will probably audition the MC-6 Hemisphere down the road to see how it compares to my Audience power conditioner.


----------



## rkt31

though I am not into orchestral music very much ( Indian music ) but I have few albums. imho the placement of drivers both in case of headphones and speakers relative to ears is the key to the difference of imaging produced by both. in case of headphones you can't adjust the position and sadly in case of speakers , most listeners place the speakers straight firing. over the years I have found that correct toe in of speakers plays a very major role for imaging of speakers. it is so much so that when my speakers are disturbed by even few mm( or even less ) I know that there is something wrong. and believe me this toe in is required for every speaker and room combinations. there is only one toe in for correct imaging which depends upon speaker type and room conditions. ( correct toe in is independent of listening position ) in that way headphone have the disadvantage that you can't adjust the position of drivers relative to ears.


----------



## romaz

louisarmstrong said:


> How is Chord Dave paired with HE1000? Any thoughts?


 
 In a word, excellent.  HE1000 connected direct to DAVE is the best I have ever heard the HEK.  I know this is a long thread but if you do a search, there are numerous postings here on people's experience with the HE1000 and the DAVE.


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> I guess it's time for the next installment of the High Fidelity Cables chronicles (seems strange but there does not appear to be a separate thread on head-fi covering HFC products). Over the last week I've been auditioning 1) the MC-0.5 Wave Guide, which is the small device you plug into an unused outlet, and 2) a pair of RCA magnetic adapters.
> 
> I'll be buying both.
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you for your impressions, Jon.  Like most things, tweaks are system dependent so it's always enlightening to hear how something as seemingly insignificant as a quad of RCA adapters or a single Waveguide that you plug into a spare receptacle in your wall might impact a system already so highly refined as your own.  As we know, transparency is the calling card of the DAVE and in my own system, I have found these same devices that you describe to enhance this quality in the best possible way.  Unlike tubes that some people value for the colorations they produce, I am not finding that this is what is happening with this magnetic conduction technology.  It sugarcoats or colors nothing but rather, it enhances clarity as if it was stripping away a layer of distortion you didn't realize was there.  For excellent recordings, they seem to bring out buried details with a natural vividness and sheen.  Rob frequently talks about the quality of being able to clearly discern the starting and stopping of notes and this is a quality I would ascribe to this technology.  Having recently done a comparison of an Audience AU24SE power cord vs an entry level CT-1 HFC power cord to my subwoofer, it is just incredible how the HFC power cord has tightened the bass output of this sub.  As I am having a set of speakers custom made for me, I was contemplating upgrading my subwoofer.  That thought has now left my mind.  Poor recordings or highly compressed files will remain as they are but the enhanced clarity that this technology brings about make them sound better than they deserve to sound.  The benefit doesn't stop with audio.  Even with just the Waveguides, see what happens to your home theater monitor or projector.  Standard DVD somehow looks more like Blu-ray.  Old Uncle Bill with all of his warts and blemishes will remain old Uncle Bill but Uncle Bill has now been given a proper bath, meal and a good night's sleep and so he no longer looks as badly or sounds as tired as he did before.
  
 Obviously, these small devices represent only a tip of the iceberg of HFC's product line and unfortunately, their higher end products are not cheap but few things I have tried have made this much difference and so it will be worth exploring for yourself what the next level brings.  For some, the power products provide more obvious benefit and indeed, the benefit they provide can have a more global impact.  The signal products (interconnects, speaker cables, this headphone device that I'm testing), on the other hand, have a more direct and pronounced effect on a specific component and in some systems (including my own), this is where the greatest benefit is found.  Of course, the benefits are additive and if you are fortunate enough to have both HFC power and signal products, the reward will be there.  With regards to the RCA adapters and MC-0.5 Waveguide that you presently have, they have the potential to bring about noticeable benefit within a few days but they really take several weeks and up to a month before you hear them at their best.  It's not that they require any burn-in but rather, it takes time for these little devices to fully magnetize your system.  Your situation may acclimate faster, however, as you already had a set of CT-1E interconnects in place.
  
 Regarding the MC-6 Hemisphere, definitely give this product a try.  If you noticed the level of difference with a single MC-0.5 Waveguide that you describe, then this product will return even larger dividends to your system.  You could always upgrade your ICs but I would suggest you give their speaker cables a try first.  Of course, when this headphone device is brought to market in January, this little device may prove to be the best value of all.


----------



## romaz

rkt31 said:


> though I am not into orchestral music very much ( Indian music ) but I have few albums. imho the placement of drivers both in case of headphones and speakers relative to ears is the key to the difference of imaging produced by both. in case of headphones you can't adjust the position and sadly in case of speakers , most listeners place the speakers straight firing. over the years I have found that correct toe in of speakers plays a very major role for imaging of speakers. it is so much so that when my speakers are disturbed by even few mm( or even less ) I know that there is something wrong. and believe me this toe in is required for every speaker and room combinations. there is only one toe in for correct imaging which depends upon speaker type and room conditions. ( correct toe in is independent of listening position ) in that way headphone have the disadvantage that you can't adjust the position of drivers relative to ears.


 
 What you say about speakers is very true and this is why a properly set up speaker system can image so well but it sounds like you haven't heard a pair of really good headphones.  The better headphones have angled drivers that were toed in by the manufacturer to achieve a certain degree of imaging.  There are also headphones that have angled pads that can be adjusted for personal preference (Abyss).  Moreover, you can also buy aftermarket pads with varying degrees of toe in.  In fact, there are numerous threads on Head-Fi that talk about this.
  
 No one disputes the advantages that speakers have but don't make it sound like headphones can't image at all.


----------



## jelt2359

rkt31 said:


> though I am not into orchestral music very much ( Indian music ) but I have few albums. imho the placement of drivers both in case of headphones and speakers relative to ears is the key to the difference of imaging produced by both. in case of headphones you can't adjust the position and sadly in case of speakers , most listeners place the speakers straight firing. over the years I have found that correct toe in of speakers plays a very major role for imaging of speakers. it is so much so that when my speakers are disturbed by even few mm( or even less ) I know that there is something wrong. and believe me this toe in is required for every speaker and room combinations. there is only one toe in for correct imaging which depends upon speaker type and room conditions. ( correct toe in is independent of listening position ) in that way headphone have the disadvantage that you can't adjust the position of drivers relative to ears.


 
 If you have a chance, try the AKG K1000. Here's an example of how it can be used, with toe-in and all.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

Thanks but no thanks - I would just go back to my speaker system for orchestral music or jazz. I think only a speaker system can fully utilise the Dave's potential and to use it solely on a headphone setup is a waste. Minute differences which can only be barely heard in headphones can become exponentially more prominent in a speaker system. And this is where a high end DAC or player shines over its lesser counterparts.


----------



## rkt31

yes exactly what I wanted to say. I myself use a decent head setup but imho for a dac to shine, the speaker set up is required. sometimes I compare mojo and fiiox3 with headphones and at times even fiio does not sound that bad but when I connect fiio line out and mojo line out to speaker system , there is no comparison at all. fiio ( fiio's dac) via line out sounds too slow without any dynamism and music sounds congested, but not mojo. even the complaint of mojo and Hugo sounding less wide through headphones is gone in speaker set up. that said I would always love to own a good headphone like ether c ( some very good reviews with mojo) whenever I have enough funds. right now thinking how to get Dave.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

Dave should be the best value for money product on the high end side. Has anyone compared Chord Dave with  the following DACs and how does it fare against them? Any thoughts will be much appreciated !!
  
 - dCS Vivaldi (DAC unit only)
 - EMMLab DAC2X
 - MSB Platinum Select / Select 2
 - Esoteric D-01X 
 - Meitner MA-2?


----------



## TheAttorney

shuttlepod said:


> I'm curious about how people with access to both high quality headphones and high quality speaker systems listen to music. I am finding that I am drawn to listening to large scale symphonic music on headphones and more intimate music on speakers. That may sound counterintuitive....


 
 I'm the opposite...so far, in that I love listening to quartets etc on headphones, but not large scale orchestra because I miss the scale and weight of the live event. However, as I exclusively listen to headphones  these days, I'll try out your idea about getting lost in the music - it would be great if I could get over this final hurdle in a 100% headphone environment, as I have no desire to go back to the hassles of a correctly set up speaker system. .
  


> Originally Posted by *shuttlepod* /img/forum/go_quote.gifI guess it's time for the next installment of the High Fidelity Cables chronicles....


 
 That's two strong endorsements for these HFC products now. I'm intrigued, but 2 things are holding me back:
  
 1. The limited range so far: Wageguide only for US sockets/voltages (it seems); and no XLR version of the cable coupler.
 2.The large HFC upgrade path is both a blessing and a curse. If I go for these entry level products, I'd be forever fretting that I chose the runt of the litter, and wonder what the next model up brings? With the stratospheric prices of the HFC top end, that is not a good position for me.
  
 BTW, for a couple of years I've had Quantum's QV2, which is a direct rival to the  Waveguide at many levels including price. But the QV2 does something completely different: it injects noise into the mains in the form of harmonics of the mains frequency - which I find amusingly ironic. The very subtle SQ improvement of clarify and tidiness was worth the money, but I wasn't so bowled over that I felt the need to explore the range any further.


----------



## lovethatsound

louisarmstrong said:


> Dave should be the best value for money product on the high end side. Has anyone compared Chord Dave with  the following DACs and how does it fare against them? Any thoughts will be much appreciated !!
> 
> - dCS Vivaldi (DAC unit only)
> - EMMLab DAC2X
> ...


Hi Louis 
I think the best thing you could do is to demo the Dave yourself,it's the only way you're ever gonna know if its for you.


----------



## apops

Dear all, sorry for the OT reply, I'm an happy owner of a DAVE, moving to DC from Italy next week. I would be very pleased to meet anyone sharing the same audiophile passion in the area.
Many thanks,
Andrea


----------



## esimms86

theattorney said:


> I'm the opposite...so far, in that I love listening to quartets etc on headphones, but not large scale orchestra because I miss the scale and weight of the live event. However, as I exclusively listen to headphones  these days, I'll try out your idea about getting lost in the music - it would be great if I could get over this final hurdle in a 100% headphone environment, as I have no desire to go back to the hassles of a correctly set up speaker system. .
> 
> That's two strong endorsements for these HFC products now. I'm intrigued, but 2 things are holding me back:
> 
> ...


 
 Boldface type is my doing. You definitely need a "wageguide" when going down the HFC  road!
  
 Esau


----------



## STR-1

theattorney said:


> 1. The limited range so far: Wageguide only for US sockets/voltages (it seems); and no XLR version of the cable coupler.




Hi. I emailed HFC a couple of times to ask if the Wave Guide could be used in the UK with an adapter without losing some of the SQ benefits, but I received no reply. Have they confirmed to you that it currently is not usable here? Would be a shame if that was the case as the Wave Guide sounds like a very good low-cost opportunity to try out this technology. Cheers


----------



## LouisArmstrong

Nice. Really nice.


----------



## romaz

str-1 said:


> Hi. I emailed HFC a couple of times to ask if the Wave Guide could be used in the UK with an adapter without losing some of the SQ benefits, but I received no reply. Have they confirmed to you that it currently is not usable here? Would be a shame if that was the case as the Wave Guide sounds like a very good low-cost opportunity to try out this technology. Cheers


 
 HFC just returned from a big audio show in Washington, D.C.  It might take time for a response.  If you obtain a US to UK adapter, I can confirm for you that the MC-0.5 Waveguide will work just fine.  
 https://www.amazon.com/Ceptics-Grounded-Universal-Plug-Adapter/dp/B0080R95XI/ref=pd_sim_23_9?ie=UTF8&dpID=41bDKhihWCL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&psc=1&refRID=TATJ6M75VF6BEZRFHRNP
  
 Because the more magnets, the better, many people buy these types of adapters so they can fit several MC-0.5s into one socket.  They cost about $5 USD:
  

  
 These adapters can be piggy backed allowing even more MC-0.5s to be plugged into one socket.  Here's mine with 5 MC-0.5s.


----------



## onsionsi

torq said:


> Yggdrasil is way better than the DAC in the MHA100.
> 
> But then so is the much cheaper Mojo or, for that matter, the basic Schiit Bifrost.
> 
> The MHA100 DAC is, in no way, on any plane, anywhere vaguely close to the Hugo, TotalDAC, DAVE or Bricasti units.  I'm in the process of a huge evaluation of such DACs, including the McIntosh begin discussed here, so I've got some recent hands-on (ears-on) experience with all of these units.




So, did you mean the Chord Mojo has a better DAC than the MHA100 DAC.


----------



## Anwer

Hi everyone,
  
 I'm visiting London next week. Is there any Audio shop where I can listen to Dave even for a few minutes?


----------



## Torq

onsionsi said:


> So, did you mean the Chord Mojo has a better DAC than the MHA100 DAC.




In my opinion, yes.

And yes, that is what I meant.


----------



## Music2move

Hi guys, 
 REGARDING  selection btw HP listening or 2-channel system,...
  
 It is more a "time of day/night" issue as to when to choose HP listening  vs  2-channel big system sound,  e.g. other house zones used for family on games, TV , movies or quiet times such as early morning or late at night.
  
 Lucky to have Nagra HD DAC, and EMM Labs XDS1v2, for sources, latter feed to Nagra, and Dharma with DHC Silver Comp 4 balanced cable ex-Luxman p700u, and alternate HD800 with Moon Audio Silver Dragon from Nagra HP output, the differences are subtle though suit some genres with different flavours.  The big system also very transparent and yet musical for all sorts classical, vocal and instrumental music.
  
 More the selection btw these is because of surrounding family competition for sound space, both have significant immediacy and soundstage implications, and  relatively minor tonality, timbre issues. With no-one else in earshot, prefer 2-channel mostly.
  
 Have read many posts re Chord DAVE, wondering if it would add much as a PCM-DAC for largely CD, SACD sources, some USB listening from Streamer...?? ??Comments ??  Thx for your thoughts..
  
 Cheers M2m


----------



## miketlse

anwer said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm visiting London next week. Is there any Audio shop where I can listen to Dave even for a few minutes?


 
  
 I would have expected there to be a dealer selling DAVE, but so far i have only found this Audio T store. I have received good service at their Bristol store a few years ago.
  
http://www.audiot.co.uk/storefinder/enfield/
  
 You could also search the official list of Chord retailers in the UK.
  
http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/retailers-map.asp


----------



## Jawed

http://www.custom-cable.co.uk/chord-electronics.html

http://www.scsav.co.uk/

I can't personally recommend either since I've never contacted them.


----------



## miketlse

jawed said:


> http://www.custom-cable.co.uk/chord-electronics.html
> 
> http://www.scsav.co.uk/
> 
> I can't personally recommend either since I've never contacted them.


 
  
 SCSAV have got the TToby available for pre-order! Only a few weeks and the first online reviews will appear.


----------



## STR-1

romaz said:


> If you obtain a US to UK adapter, I can confirm for you that the MC-0.5 Waveguide will work just fine.



Thanks, romaz, for that very welcome reassurance. Now to get my hands one. Cheers


----------



## STR-1

jawed said:


> http://www.custom-cable.co.uk/chord-electronics.html
> 
> http://www.scsav.co.uk/
> 
> I can't personally recommend either since I've never contacted them.



Custom Cables have a very good selection of headphones to listen to the Dave through.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> HFC just returned from a big audio show in Washington, D.C.  It might take time for a response.  If you obtain a US to UK adapter, I can confirm for you that the MC-0.5 Waveguide will work just fine.
> https://www.amazon.com/Ceptics-Grounded-Universal-Plug-Adapter/dp/B0080R95XI/ref=pd_sim_23_9?ie=UTF8&dpID=41bDKhihWCL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&psc=1&refRID=TATJ6M75VF6BEZRFHRNP
> 
> Because the more magnets, the better, many people buy these types of adapters so they can fit several MC-0.5s into one socket.  They cost about $5 USD:
> ...


 
  
 Roy,
  
 What are those black cylinders?  Links for them?
  
 Paul


----------



## Anwer

Thank you all for the suggestions of audio stores


----------



## esimms86

paulchiu said:


> Roy,
> 
> What are those black cylinders?  Links for them?
> 
> Paul




The cylinders are the HFC MC-0.5 magnetic wave guides.
www.highfidelitycables.com


----------



## Beolab

The cylinder magnetic wave guides
www.highfidelitycables.com

Read this with a sense of humour and irony: 

Sorry, but Nordost have similar tubes i have had demoed for me in the past, where you can hook these harvesters in your ac outlets all around your house, and if you buy 25 of them you will instantly get to nirvana, and you cant have to many they claim! 
So if you buy like 300 of them, then what would happen to the music? 
Your old dusty Hitachi stereo deck from -87 in your basement will most likely sound as a Chord DAVE then! 
It is like a pyramid game, it will never be enough on how many magnetic tubes you can buy, it will always sound better, until Ingram Washington sounds as smooth as Enya 

I think you will end up getting mad before Ingram sound so smooth on his voice. 

Can we keep this thread to the topic, and start a separate HF / Sonore / Roon thread maybe  

Have a great listening evening!


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> esimms86 said:
> 
> 
> > The cylinders are the HFC MC-0.5 magnetic wave guides.
> ...


 
 I agree, it's good to keep this about the DAVE, and I appreciate your sense of humor.  At the same time, it can be helpful to talk about things that can improve one's experience with the DAVE and even discussions about products that have been tried that result in no improvement at all can be helpful.
  
 Where it was once believed the DAVE was completely immune to the source, I think it has been revelatory to find that some sources like the mR, for example, can really make the DAVE shine all the brighter and these discussions, I believe, have benefited many in terms of further optimizing their system and elevating their musical enjoyment.  In my view, there are more helpful and insightful "off topic" comments made on this thread then there are helpful or insightful "on topic" comments made in any magazine review of the DAVE that I have come across.
  
 As for certain power products, many including yourself, have suggested that certain mains cables that have been tried including those from IsoTek, Shunyata, Audience, Nordost, etc., have made no significant improvement when it comes to the DAVE.  That has indeed been my experience also with most of these brands and so I think that some of these "off topic" discussions have been of value for many to know they shouldn't spend a lot of money on these things.  HFC cables, however, seem to be the exception and this may be due to the unique technology that they employ.  Of course, it is difficult sometimes to take the word of one person when they say they hear an improvement with a certain product or technology in their system, especially if that technology is so unconventional, and so I think people do take notice when others with a DAVE step up and share similar experiences.  Where there's enough smoke being generated, there might really be a fire.  Based on the responses to shuttlepod's recent review, I believe people are genuinely interested in the things he had to say (partly because he writes so well) and speaking for myself, these are the posts I enjoy reading the most, even if it was a bit off topic.  Regarding other off topic conversations of value, not too long ago, you brought up a topic that had nothing to do with the DAVE about how good your hearing was relative to the hearing of some of your older colleagues.  Personally, I found it to be a very interesting topic and I was preparing to respond to it until it got mysteriously pulled.  The reason I found it interesting is that while it doesn't take a special ear to appreciate the general qualities of the DAVE, I do believe it can take a special ear (especially an experienced and trained ear) to appreciate just how really good the DAVE is compared to other DACs.  
  
 On so many other threads on Head-Fi and elsewhere, people talk about how good this or that is with their DAC.  I have found, however, that I can't apply almost 90% of what others say to my own system for a few reasons.  One, I don't know how good an ear most people have and what their preferences and sensibilities are.  Two, because the DAVE is so uniquely engineered in so many ways, many things that make great differences with other DACs seem to hardly make any difference with the DAVE and vice versa.  On this thread, however, the DAVE is the one thing that many of us share in common and so I pay a bit more attention to comments made by a DAVE owner for the exact same reasons.  First, those who would buy a DAVE above and beyond another DAC, logic would suggest, have an experienced and trained enough ear to appreciate its finer qualities.  We are, after all, talking about a $13,300 DAC and it would be highly unlikely that the DAVE would be anyone's first DAC.  Second, those who own a DAVE generally have a "real world" working knowledge (and not just some theoretical understanding) of what makes the DAVE tick, what works and what doesn't work and so it becomes easier to relate to other DAVE owners comments, even if they are off topic.  
  
 In closing, regarding HFC products, I agree their discussion is probably better suited to a dedicated thread of its own and there is indeed a very good dedicated thread on Audiogon for those interested.  Once HFC comes out officially with their headphone device, I will be happy to start an HFC thread here on Head-Fi.  Until then, I won't speak of it again unless asked to directly comment although I will clarify one statement you have made because it may be misconstrued by some.  Since my Chord dealer is also a Nordost dealer, I have tried most of Nordost's product line including the $10,000 Odin mains cable (which didn't make much of a difference) but also the Qk1 AC enhancer that you seem to think is equivalent to the HFC MC-0.5 Wave Guide.  Here is that device:
  

  
 I can assure you that this device doesn't come close to what an MC-0.5 does.  The technology behind the two products is completely different and it would be misleading to suggest that if you've heard one, you've heard the other.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

What do you guys use for transport for Dave? How would you compare, for example, the sound quality of just using an iPhone vs MacBook Pro vs  AK380 vs a Hifi-treated PC as source? I bet the SQ of using a high end CD transport will be the best, but my player at the moment is not a pure transport (Esoteric K-01), so not sure what I should use as source if I buy Dave, and how big the difference will be.


----------



## lovethatsound

@romaz @Beolab
I must say i find both of your posts about Dave and other products used,tested with the Dave very informative,and most of all a very good read.


----------



## jelt2359

I think quite a few of us are using the microRendu, not least because the USB input is the dave's best one, and this transport does not break the bank.


----------



## lovethatsound

louisarmstrong said:


> What do you guys use for transport for Dave? How would you compare, for example, the sound quality of just using an iPhone vs MacBook Pro vs  AK380 vs a Hifi-treated PC as source? I bet the SQ of using a high end CD transport will be the best, but my player at the moment is not a pure transport (Esoteric K-01), so not sure what I should use as source if I buy Dave, and how big the difference will be.


I use chords blu transport with my Dave most of the time.
I do use a macbook from time to time,but i must admit i still prefer the sound quality coming from my blu transport.


----------



## rkt31

I think a windows laptop running on battery using foobar via dave asio driver is the best bet. this way the asynchronous method ensures bit perfect transfer with out any data loss as mentioned by Rob watts earlier. there is a continious check of any data loss and if any packet is faulty it is sent again. the clock of dave is used to pull the data from the source . a further improvement will be to use s good usb cable which resist rfi and emi . right now furutech gt2 usb cable is imho the best which can beat much more expensive usb cables. additionally one or two ferrite choke one each end may further benefit without much extra cost. this is apart from good power cables for dave. I don't have dave right now but imho you don't need much more than that for dave to shine to its true potential. even if someone uses other expensive accessories for dave the improvement may be very minor and may only be tangential in nature.


----------



## romaz

music2move said:


> Hi guys,
> REGARDING  selection btw HP listening or 2-channel system,...
> 
> It is more a "time of day/night" issue as to when to choose HP listening  vs  2-channel big system sound,  e.g. other house zones used for family on games, TV , movies or quiet times such as early morning or late at night.
> ...


 
 You will want to communicate with @paulchiu.  He has both the Nagra HD and the DAVE and he listens to a lot of PCM and DSD.
  
 You can make an argument for many great DACs for 2-channel speaker setups and headphones but it's tougher to find one that is equally great for both without some major compromise and for me, this is the greatest attribute of the DAVE.  Some DACs are chosen because they have established pedigrees in million dollar systems; some DACs are chosen because they have million dollar price tags and so surely, it must be good; some are chosen because it is what the local dealer was selling and then there are DACs that are chosen based on actual merit where the purchaser did their due diligence to find the best DAC they could possibly find.  I won't make any definitive statements because there's no accounting for personal tastes, budget and system synergy but I will say that in my opinion, the DAVE deserves to be in any conversation where "best DAC in the world" is being discussed and should be on anyone's short list who is looking for the best possible DAC for the best possible value, whether it be for an HD-800 or a $600,000 pair of Magico Ultimates.
  
 My value statements are based on the following:   Having attempted to do my due diligence, I have traveled far and wide to hear and experience many things.  To the chagrin of my wallet, I have also bought many DACs only to sell them after I found something better.  I am not so naive or arrogant to say one DAC is great and everything else is rubbish or the DAC that I have now will be the best DAC forever.  I think there are many great DACs and many more great DACs are being developed every year which is a wonderful thing for the consumer.  if I was forced to a certain price point, I would have no problem finding a DAC I could be happy with at that price point, whether it be $1,000 or $100,000 although obviously, there are different degrees of happiness that different price points will buy.  What I will say is this, once the budget goes beyond $10,000, there will only be one DAC in my sights and that will be the DAVE.  As someone who treasures live performances, it speaks to these sensibilities better than anything else I have experienced, regardless of price.  If someone prefers the colored sweet harmonics that comes with a tube DAC, there's nothing wrong with that but the DAVE is not it.  For those that believe that sound tuning belongs more with the pre-amp, amp, transducers or even cables and that the main job of the DAC is to provide as hauntingly realistic and natural interpretation of the digital file as possible, whether it be lowly 16/44, DXD or DSD, then the DAVE deserves an audition.
  
 SQ is not the only place where the DAVE separates itself, however.  Let's take DAC brand X, which happens to sell for a base price of $100,000 and is comprised of a multi-stack of components because, of course, for this DAC to sound its best, the company is expecting that you will spend another $20k for the triple power bases and $15k for the upgraded atto-clock.  It wouldn't be proper if you didn't spend another $20k for their upgraded music server with a cryo-treated external clock and then another $20k for the super deluxe preamp but this should go without saying because you've already come so far, why stop now?  If you listen to headphones, surely, you'll want to also spring for the new $50k matching headphone amp and it would be heresy if you don't spend at least another $60,000 on mains cables and interconnects and another $30k for a suitable rack to house everything.  When it's time to listen to music, make sure you budget for enough time beforehand so you can turn on every single component and allow each one to properly warm up.  
  
 Then comes the DAVE, a single component that can fit comfortably on a desk or end table.  Sure, it benefits from isolation devices but go ahead and use it as is.  Plug it into the wall with whatever mains cable you can find, even if it's the one that powers your fax machine.  While you're at it, go ahead and grab the generic USB cable that you're using for your printer and then use it to connect the $500 Windows laptop that your brother-in-law handed down to you because he outgrew it.  You say you want to listen to CDs?  Go ahead and dust off that $100 Emerson CD player that your son bought at a garage sale and connect it to the DAVE using the "Made in China" optical cable that came with it.  Now, flip on your speaker amp and listen to what comes out.  Once the family goes to sleep, go ahead and plug your HE-1000 directly into the headphone port of the DAVE and listen to what comes out.  I would be willing to bet that the DAVE won't embarrass itself.  If you give the DAVE the same attention that you gave your $100,000 DAC, I would be willing to bet that you will wonder why you spent all that money and put up with all the inconvenience.


----------



## x RELIC x

Another excellent post romaz and I agree with a lot of what you've said. However, one small point I disagree with is this as it is quite a profound point when looking at it deeper....




> _For those that believe that sound tuning belongs more with the pre-amp, amp, transducers or even cables and that the main job of the DAC is to provide as hauntingly realistic and *natural interpretation of the digital file as possible*, whether it be lowly 16/44, DXD or DSD, then the DAVE deserves an audition._




Rob has mentioned that his goal is NOT to reproduce the digital file in any way. His goal, as he's stated many times, is to reproduce the original performance as best he can. Of course there are factors well outside his control, beginning with the mic and ADC, but within his limitations he has gone to great lengths (more than any DAC manufacturer that I know of) to reach that goal. There is no other DAC designer taking the noise floor modulation as seriously as he is (indeed even Rob is surprised at the results he hears). No other DAC designer is approaching the TAP length filter to the extent that he is. He didn't like silicone DACs for the noise they produce so he created his discrete Pulse Array DAC. He is experienced and familiar with R2R as well as 'traditional' silicone DACs which makes his perspective valuable to me.

I know you are familiar with all of these things, but I feel as an amendment to your post it's worth noting once again how deeply Rob has looked at the multiple issues with re-creating the original performance, and how long he has worked to chip away at certain issues (what most others have simply ignored) in order to find improvements, which are based on his extensive (30 years) of listening tests. Yes, I'm a fan. It's actually for these reasons that I'm also very excited to find out more about his upcoming ADC and what it can do for the industry.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> I agree, it's good to keep this about the DAVE, and I appreciate your sense of humor.  At the same time, it can be helpful to talk about things that can improve one's experience with the DAVE and even discussions about products that have been tried that result in no improvement at all can be helpful.
> 
> Where it was once believed the DAVE was completely immune to the source, I think it has been revelatory to find that some sources like the mR, for example, can really make the DAVE shine all the brighter and these discussions, I believe, have benefited many in terms of further optimizing their system and elevating their musical enjoyment.  In my view, there are more helpful and insightful "off topic" comments made on this thread then there are helpful or insightful "on topic" comments made in any magazine review of the DAVE that I have come across.
> 
> ...




I will keep this a little shorter. 

I admit that i have contribute to this in many ways, but maybe the OT does not have to be almost endless of pages about a third party product we can have in mind. 
And i agree with you Roy, but i wanted just to shade some light on this. 

Then Nordost Qk1 was only an example, and i just wanted to make a point about the insanity about AC power purifiers, that the more of them you buy the better sound you will receive regardless of brand, because they all state that just their soup is the best, and they all have something in common, and that is the higher amount of units you add, the better sound you will get in all eternity.


Back to topic


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> I will keep this a little shorter.
> 
> I admit that i have contribute to this in many ways, but maybe the OT does not have to be almost endless of pages about a third part product we can have in mind.
> And i agree with you Roy, but i wanted just to shade some light on this.
> ...


 
 I will keep this response brief also.  Basically, I agree with your point which is why I value the opinion of actual users that I can relate to more than the advertising hype of a manufacturer whose claims are almost always too good to be true.  With respect to this particular product, it is true, however, that I have yet to reach a saturation point and no matter what I have added, it continues to make a positive difference.  Not to worry, though, because I would run out of money long before I buy everything the manufacturer wants me to buy and I am actually now more than happy with how my system sounds.  Despite how crazy expensive the higher end HFC cables cost, one could easily spend much more and receive much less from another company.  Also, even the entry level items from HFC are sometimes better than the very best from other companies just because the technology employed is so unique and so I'll leave it at that.


----------



## romaz

x relic x said:


> Another excellent post @romaz and I agree with a lot of what you've said. However, one small point I disagree with is this as it is quite a profound point when looking at it deeper....
> Rob has mentioned that his goal is NOT to reproduce the digital file in any way. His goal, as he's stated many times, is to reproduce the original performance as best he can. Of course there are factors well outside his control, beginning with the mic and ADC, but within his limitations he has gone to great lengths (more than any DAC manufacturer that I know of) to reach that goal. There is no other DAC designer taking the noise floor modulation as seriously as he is (indeed even Rob is surprised at the results he hears). No other DAC designer is approaching the TAP length filter to the extent that he is. He didn't like silicone DACs for the noise they produce so he created his discrete Pulse Array DAC. He is experienced and familiar with R2R as well as 'traditional' silicone DACs which makes his perspective valuable to me.
> 
> I know you are familiar with all of these things, but I feel as an amendment to your post it's worth noting once again how deeply Rob has looked at the multiple issues with re-creating the original performance, and how long he has worked to chip away at certain issues (what most others have simply ignored) in order to find improvements, which are based on his extensive (30 years) of listening tests. Yes, I'm a fan. It's actually for these reasons that I'm also very excited to find out more about his upcoming ADC and what it can do for the industry.


 
 I appreciate your point and I don't disagree. My rationale for using the word "digital file" was to highlight how excellent the DAVE is regardless of file type (16/44, DXD or DSD), particularly because Music2move was specifically inquiring about CD and SACD playback.
  
 You bring up a good point, though.  With Rob's upcoming ADC and digital amp and with the DAVE poised to fully take advantage of the benefits, the future looks very promising for DAVE owners.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

I understand that the dCS Vivaldi also makes use of proprietary FPGA for its DAC unit - has anyone compared Vivaldi's DAC unit (without the clock and upscaler) with the DAVE and what are the results? Really interested in that one.
  
 Cheers,
 Louis Armstrong


----------



## romaz

louisarmstrong said:


> I understand that the dCS Vivaldi also makes use of proprietary FPGA for its DAC unit - has anyone compared Vivaldi's DAC unit (without the clock and upscaler) with the DAVE and what are the results? Really interested in that one.
> 
> Cheers,
> Louis Armstrong


 
 I have heard the Vivaldi both alone and as part of its quad stack but I have not been able to make direct comparisons against the DAVE.  Look back on this thread by a few months and you will see several posts by a member of a Chinese audiophile society whose group blindly compared the DAVE against the Vivaldi (without the clock) and other top DACs using a dCS source and a majority of the group preferred the DAVE to anything else.


----------



## miketlse

louisarmstrong said:


> What do you guys use for transport for Dave? How would you compare, for example, the sound quality of just using an iPhone vs MacBook Pro vs  AK380 vs a Hifi-treated PC as source? I bet the SQ of using a high end CD transport will be the best, but my player at the moment is not a pure transport (Esoteric K-01), so not sure what I should use as source if I buy Dave, and how big the difference will be.


 
  
 You may find this post interesting by someone buying an Esoteric player to use as a transport.
  
http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/esoteric-sacd-player
  
 It has made me think about such transports as a future option, but at present it would be overkill for my Mojo - if i had a DAVE that would be a different story.


----------



## x RELIC x

louisarmstrong said:


> I understand that the dCS Vivaldi also makes use of proprietary FPGA for its DAC unit - has anyone compared Vivaldi's DAC unit (without the clock and upscaler) with the DAVE and what are the results? Really interested in that one.
> 
> Cheers,
> Louis Armstrong




http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/2835#post_12566111


----------



## stvc

romaz said:


> I appreciate your point and I don't disagree. My rationale for using the word "digital file" was to highlight how excellent the DAVE is regardless of file type (16/44, DXD or DSD), particularly because Music2move was specifically inquiring about CD and SACD playback.
> 
> You bring up a good point, though.  With Rob's upcoming ADC and digital amp and with the DAVE poised to fully take advantage of the benefits, the future looks very promising for DAVE owners.




Any idea when the amp will be released? Excited to see how well to drive speaker.


----------



## rkt31

CD player itself may be very good transport but that is not an asynchronous connection. usb establishes an asynchronous connection which is much more jitter immune provided you take care of external rfi and emi


----------



## lovethatsound

rkt31 said:


> CD player itself may be very good transport but that is not an asynchronous connection. usb establishes an asynchronous connection which is much more jitter immune provided you take care of external rfi and emi


Hi rkt31
You really don't have to worry about jitter with Dave or for that matter any of chords new dacs.


----------



## rkt31

@lovethatsound, exactly. that's why an expensive CD transport is not needed for dave. still people find differences ( though extremely minor) between transport to transport. that may not be due to jitter but due other factors like how much noise is the source , cable quality ( how much immune is cable for external rfi, emi, even quality if copper said to affect the sound) . I would say out of all those options usb is best imho.


----------



## lovethatsound

@rkt31
Just use an optical cable.


----------



## romaz

lovethatsound said:


> @rkt31
> Just use an optical cable.


 
 That's right.  Very few pure CD transports output in USB.  The Esoteric certainly doesn't.  It is generally some form of SPDIF (optical or digital coax) and with the DAVE, it has already been well established that optical is superior to digital coax and even AES/EBU.  Optical has the advantage of complete ground noise isolation and so passage of RF noise from the source is not an issue here.  Historically, the issue with optical is jitter but as we know, the DAVE is completely immune to source jitter to a level of 2us.  Then, there is the issue of mechanical noise but probably not an issue for most modern transports.
  
 Late last year, my Chord dealer and I did a blind test between 2 CD transports he had on hand that we connected via optical to the DAVE.  We used a 1 minute segment from Mahler's 9th symphony as a test track.  One was a $500 Cambridge Audio unit and the other was a $19,000 Wadia.  While there were very subtle differences between the two, they were not enough to make a difference in terms of which transport we would choose even if both units cost the same.  We would have been happy with either.


----------



## romaz

stvc said:


> Any idea when the amp will be released? Excited to see how well to drive speaker.


 
 The first amp is supposed to come out next year although I think Rob's immediate priority might be the ADC.


----------



## esimms86

romaz said:


> The first amp is supposed to come out next year although I think Rob's immediate priority might be the ADC.


 

 I wonder if Rob or John have said anything about a price point for the amp(not that they are necessarily planning to build to a price point).


----------



## miketlse

romaz said:


> The first amp is supposed to come out next year although I think Rob's immediate priority might be the ADC.


 
  
 The TToby is available for pre-order at the moment, so I suspect ensuring a smooth entry-into-service for that is the immediate short term goal.


----------



## Music2move

romaz said:


> You will want to communicate with @paulchiu.  He has both the Nagra HD and the DAVE and he listens to a lot of PCM and DSD.
> 
> You can make an argument for many great DACs for 2-channel speaker setups and headphones but it's tougher to find one that is equally great for both without some major compromise and for me, this is the greatest attribute of the DAVE.  Some DACs are chosen because they have established pedigrees in million dollar systems; some DACs are chosen because they have million dollar price tags and so surely, it must be good; some are chosen because it is what the local dealer was selling and then there are DACs that are chosen based on actual merit where the purchaser did their due diligence to find the best DAC they could possibly find.  I won't make any definitive statements because there's no accounting for personal tastes, budget and system synergy but I will say that in my opinion, the DAVE deserves to be in any conversation where "best DAC in the world" is being discussed and should be on anyone's short list who is looking for the best possible DAC for the best possible value, whether it be for an HD-800 or a $600,000 pair of Magico Ultimates.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Romaz,  
  
 Thank you sincerely for your sharing of your extensive experience, truly perceptive and illustrates how far you have travelled in this immersive ( ?obsessive ?) hobby/pursuit of ours. Re para 3, couldn't agree more, we all get the sense of being fodder for the industry, constantly being encouraged/ exhorted to upgrade and move onto the latest development .  My own search has originally been based on first-hand auditions and subsequent purchases, with own personal $$$s, but lately this availability to "try before you buy" has become almost impossible ( fewer dealers, fewer demo units, higher aspirations of equipment,  time, etc ).
  
 Owned and loved in their time: Chord DAC64, then Chord QBD76 ( nonHD ) together w Chord BLU CD transport and Esoteric X-03, then Soulution 540 CD/SACD, and then been lucky to acquire EMM Labs XDS1v2 (Nov 2014, current 2015-2016 specification incl. MDAT2 )  AND separately Nagra HD DAC ( within same time-frame) and both were purchased with trade-ins and own personal $$$s.  Actually very happy with these 2 sources, and have NAD M50 acting as a streaming source.  Have found each DAC ( EMM, Nagra ) lovely , sometimes one illustrates different flavours to enhance the music presentation in a more "live" natural way as per concert venue, smaller recital hall, church or record venue.  Prefer HP listening slightly more often from Luxman p700u HA  ( fed from either EMM Labs XDS1v2 direct or via Nagra HD DAC thru Synergistic Research Element CTS Digital AES/EBU XLR ),  as Luxman HA is balanced, output from it is  DHC Silver Complement balanced cord ( definitely beautiful open and natural sound ) into Enigma Dharma HP,  though Nagra HP direct to HD800 via Moon Silver Dragon v3 also musical rich and " denser" sometimes : might be the cabling and balanced nature of theHA, and  psychoacoustic experience/expectation ?,  as much as the DAC, HP.  Both HPs and Luxman were auditioned then bought, the EMM Labs XDS1v2 and Nagra HD DAC were bought un-auditioned  after lots of research. 
  
 So , my curiosity about Chord DAVE has been piqued, especially by comments by PaulChiu and iSquirrel, especially as I previously liked the presentation of my prior Chord DACs and BLU transport ( despite reliability issues ). As experience has taught, cannot always rely on audition first, nor of course from just reading and asking extensively, so intelligent guess-work and luck and "gamble" all  play increasing importance in " destination " purchase(s), especially as our ears and auditory nerves only get older and somewhat frailer.
  
 Recently, found upstream power cable change made a substantial difference to all source and pre/power components ( Synergistic Research Atmosphere level4 PC to SR Powercell UEF and Preamp and power amp each ), even just to the Powercell UEF feeding the established/prior SR Element CTS digital PCs to source components. So, agree "everything matters " in this game..
  
 Much appreciate your thoughts , am definitely interested in DAVE for both main system and HP listening , Cheers M2m


----------



## analogmusic

hello I am in USA, but could not make it to the New York City Dealer to audition DAVE. 
  
 Does anyone know if I can audition Dave somewhere near Dublin, California where I will be staying for the next week?
  
 Cheers


----------



## Music2move

paulchiu said:


> You are not alone and here is the forum where many share your experience.  I have separate rooms in my home for speakers and headphones.  In my office, I have both.  I usually play my large speakers when friends are over.  Mainly so they can all enjoy the music.  When I personally savor my music, it most always will be with my favorite DAC/Amp/headphone.  Currently in the market, there are extraordinary DACs, amps and headphones.  The progress of speakers is not comparable, at least in the price zones for personal listening.
> 
> Over a year ago at one of the best audio salons in New York, I auditioned the Nagra HD DAC with TH900 and my Macbook Pro.  In the same room were 2 pairs of speakers connected to systems (both analog and digital) worth a million.  After an hour of listening to both, I was surprised that I prefer the sound from the head-amp and TH900.  Yes, I do not have the imaging or tactile connection with the music when using the headphone.  Yes, the headphone can get warm, uncomfortable or restrictive.  These aside, the resolution and intimacy afforded by the TH900 and Nagra were overwhelming.  The million dollar speakers-system in an exquisite sound room could not lure me away from the unique personal soundscape I enjoyed.  It was not about the money!
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Paul,
  
 I read your comment with great interest, especially as am interested in Chord DAVE, and also have Nagra HD DAC. Below I enclose my comments to Romaz,...and wondering how your experience btw Nagra HD DAC and Chord DAVE for both 2-channel big system and for HP listening have panned out over time.
  
 Hi Romaz,  
  
 Thank you sincerely for your sharing of your extensive experience, truly perceptive and illustrates how far you have travelled in this immersive ( ?obsessive ?) hobby/pursuit of ours. Re para 3, couldn't agree more, we all get the sense of being fodder for the industry, constantly being encouraged/ exhorted to upgrade and move onto the latest development .  My own search has originally been based on first-hand auditions and subsequent purchases, with own personal $$$s, but lately this availability to "try before you buy" has become almost impossible ( fewer dealers, fewer demo units, higher aspirations of equipment,  time, etc ).
  
 Owned and loved in their time: Chord DAC64, then Chord QBD76 ( nonHD ) together w Chord BLU CD transport and Esoteric X-03, then Soulution 540 CD/SACD, and then been lucky to acquire EMM Labs XDS1v2 (Nov 2014, current 2015-2016 specification incl. MDAT2 )  AND separately Nagra HD DAC ( within same time-frame) and both were purchased with trade-ins and own personal $$$s.  Actually very happy with these 2 sources, and have NAD M50 acting as a streaming source.  Have found each DAC ( EMM, Nagra ) lovely , sometimes one illustrates different flavours to enhance the music presentation in a more "live" natural way as per concert venue, smaller recital hall, church or record venue.  Prefer HP listening slightly more often from Luxman p700u HA  ( fed from either EMM Labs XDS1v2 direct or via Nagra HD DAC thru Synergistic Research Element CTS Digital AES/EBU XLR ),  as Luxman HA is balanced, output from it is  DHC Silver Complement balanced cord ( definitely beautiful open and natural sound ) into Enigma Dharma HP,  though Nagra HP direct to HD800 via Moon Silver Dragon v3 also musical rich and " denser" sometimes : might be the cabling and balanced nature of theHA, and  psychoacoustic experience/expectation ?,  as much as the DAC, HP.  Both HPs and Luxman were auditioned then bought, the EMM Labs XDS1v2 and Nagra HD DAC were bought un-auditioned  after lots of research. 
  
 So , my curiosity about Chord DAVE has been piqued, especially by comments by PaulChiu and iSquirrel, especially as I previously liked the presentation of my prior Chord DACs and BLU transport ( despite reliability issues ). As experience has taught, cannot always rely on audition first, nor of course from just reading and asking extensively, so intelligent guess-work and luck and "gamble" all  play increasing importance in " destination " purchase(s), especially as our ears and auditory nerves only get older and somewhat frailer.
  
 Recently, found upstream power cable change made a substantial difference to all source and pre/power components ( Synergistic Research Atmosphere level4 PC to SR Powercell UEF and Preamp and power amp each ), even just to the Powercell UEF feeding the established/prior SR Element CTS digital PCs to source components. So, agree "everything matters " in this game..
  
 Much appreciate your thoughts , 
  
 Very much appreciate your thoughts also Paul, hopefully you can place my listening environment into perspective and come up with your comment.  Cheers , M2m


----------



## romaz

analogmusic said:


> hello I am in USA, but could not make it to the New York City Dealer to audition DAVE.
> 
> Does anyone know if I can audition Dave somewhere near Dublin, California where I will be staying for the next week?
> 
> Cheers


 

 The Chord dealer in San Francisco is Audio Vision SF.  Ask for Antonio Long, he is very knowledgeable about this DAC and will provide you with a wonderful demo at your leisure using a variety of headphones (including the HE-1000, Abyss, Dharma D1000) or speakers.  He has other DACs and high-end CD players you can compare the DAVE against.


----------



## paulchiu

music2move said:


> Hi Paul,
> 
> I read your comment with great interest, especially as am interested in Chord DAVE, and also have Nagra HD DAC. Below I enclose my comments to Romaz,...and wondering how your experience btw Nagra HD DAC and Chord DAVE for both 2-channel big system and for HP listening have panned out over time.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi M2m,
  
 Just what is your listening environment for the DAVE?  Will you be replacing the Nagra HD DAC with it?  Why don't we carry this comparison via PM.
  
 Cheers,
  
 Paul


----------



## AndrewOld

rob watts said:


> I have finally gotten round to listen to the AQ jitterbug, as a quest to understand where the RF noise problems from the source was coming from - via the mains or the USB.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


 
  
 Rob, why is it that running a laptop from batteries removes RF pollution from the situation? Don't CPUs and memory and discs etc. generate RF noise whether or not they are mains powered?


----------



## Crgreen

If I've understood Rob correctly, he isn't saying that they don't, only that they're not a problem or at least that they're variables which cannot be changed. A matter of reduction rather than complete elimination.


----------



## Rob Watts

andrewold said:


> Rob, why is it that running a laptop from batteries removes RF pollution from the situation? Don't CPUs and memory and discs etc. generate RF noise whether or not they are mains powered?


 
 Yes all sources create RF noise. We have two ways of coupling RF noise - via the cables, or electromagnetically. This mode is stopped with Dave being made from a solid block of aluminium - it is extremely well screened. The mains, and the outputs are RF filtered too. On the USB, we have galvanic isolation, but that will not completely isolate Dave from the source, as it has 2pF of coupling capacitance on the galvanic isolation (all isolators have some level of coupling capacitance).
  
 Now this coupling capacitance is important, as RF noise voltages from the source will inject a small current into Dave's ground plane - and due to the ground plane having a 0.5 ohms per square and about 1 nH inductance per square will create small internal RF voltages that is picked up by the analogue electronics which will then induce a tiny amount of IM distortion, and so noise floor modulation will increase - even though Dave has immeasurably small amounts of RF noise modulation, the small extra amount is audible.
  
 But if you run the source from batteries, and have no ground connected to the lap-top, then there are no net currents flowing into Dave, as the isolation capacitance of the lap top to ground is much smaller than the 2 pF from the isolators; in effect you are now completely isolating the source from Dave via the direct USB connection and so no RF currents from the source can be injected into Dave's ground plane. That's why this mode sounds a bit smoother and warmer than mains powering the lap-top.
  
 Having said all that, we are talking about very minor stuff here; it's not the icing on the cake but making sure the icing is flat to 1 micron rather than 0.1 mm...Before the galvanic isolation I used to get huge differences from sources if they were mains powered - now we are talking about a small change that is only audible on AB tests. When I listen to music I don't bother disconnecting the lap-top - only when doing serious testing.   
  
 Rob


----------



## miketlse

A new question for Rob Watts.
  
 Do you detect any difference in the sound output from a DAC, depending on whether the laptop has a traditional hard drive or a SSD?
 My assumption has been that the traditional hard drive would generate more electrical 'noise', but is this assumption true?


----------



## Rob Watts

Hmm. It depends very much upon the DAC. I would be very surprised if you can hear it with Dave, and almost certainly not with battery operation on the source. But I would not be surprised if SSD was better without galvanic isolation on the USB, and/or with DAC's that did not have RF filtering on the PSU.
  
 Rob


----------



## miketlse

rob watts said:


> Hmm. It depends very much upon the DAC. I would be very surprised if you can hear it with Dave, and almost certainly not with battery operation on the source. But I would not be surprised if SSD was better without galvanic isolation on the USB, and/or with DAC's that did not have RF filtering on the PSU.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Thanks Rob, I was thinking in terms of Chord DACs.
 I have the SSD to upgrade my laptop, because there are other benefits like faster bootup, and lower power consumption, but I was curious if it would also improve the use of my laptop to drive my Mojo (and whichever DAC I upgrade to next).
  
 I can use the optical output from my TV and desktop pc, as the sources for my Mojo, but I don't see any current laptops with optical outputs on sale, so obtaining a noise-free USB signal is the alternative goal.


----------



## iDesign

miketlse said:


> "I don't see any current laptops with optical outputs on sale..."


 
 Macbook Pro


----------



## miketlse

idesign said:


> Macbook Pro


 
  
 Thanks.
  
 I should have included the criteria that I would prefer a windows solution.
 Both my existing laptop and PC are already windows based, so I don't want to have to learn another operating system if I can help it.


----------



## Torq

miketlse said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I should have included the criteria that I would prefer a windows solution.
> Both my existing laptop and PC are already windows based, so I don't want to have to learn another operating system if I can help it.


 
  
 The best Windows laptop I ever owned, back when I still used Windows for my personal systems, was a Mac Book Pro.
  
 It runs fine on it, either dual-booted, via virtualization or even as the sole OS.
  
 An expensive solution, compared to the myriad cheaply made pure-Windows laptops available for sure, but it'll run Windows just fine.


----------



## AndrewOld

rob watts said:


> Yes all sources create RF noise....
> 
> But if you run the source from batteries, and have no ground connected to the lap-top, then there are no net currents flowing into Dave, ...
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Rob, thanks for your answer. If the power supply on your laptop is only 2 pin, ie it is not connected to ground, does that mean that it shouldn't make any difference whether the laptop is run from the power supply or from batteries, because there is no ground connection in either case?


----------



## Beolab

andrewold said:


> Rob, thanks for your answer. If the power supply on your laptop is only 2 pin, ie it is not connected to ground, does that mean that it shouldn't make any difference whether the laptop is run from the power supply or from batteries, because there is no ground connection in either case?




I do not have any grounding issues, because of the department i live in is built 1880 , so we do not have any grounding in the building at all  

So it should not be any difference if i run with or without battery on my laptop then.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

Hi Rob Watts. Great stuff there. How would you compare your product with dCS Vivaldi?


----------



## lovethatsound

louisarmstrong said:


> Hi Rob Watts. Great stuff there. How would you compare your product with dCS Vivaldi?


Come on louis,you really don't expect Rob Watts to reply to that sort of question.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

lovethatsound said:


> Come on louis,you really don't expect Rob Watts to reply to that sort of question.


 

 You never know dude... You never know...  He may just reply...


----------



## Rob Watts

andrewold said:


> Rob, thanks for your answer. If the power supply on your laptop is only 2 pin, ie it is not connected to ground, does that mean that it shouldn't make any difference whether the laptop is run from the power supply or from batteries, because there is no ground connection in either case?


 
 No even if ground is not connected, the ground loop becomes the mains loop - so coupling is via the neutral wire on PSU on lap-top and PSU on Dave. So there is no benefit by having no ground connection. And an isolation transformer has a lot of coupling capacitance so that won't solve it either.
  
 Rob


----------



## LouisArmstrong

So Rob did answer the question. Just not mine


----------



## AndrewOld

rob watts said:


> No even if ground is not connected, the ground loop becomes the mains loop - so coupling is via the neutral wire on PSU on lap-top and PSU on Dave. So there is no benefit by having no ground connection. And an isolation transformer has a lot of coupling capacitance so that won't solve it either.
> 
> Rob


 

 Thanks Rob. Is it enough to turn my laptop off at the mains, or does it need to be physically disconnected to avoid potential RF issues?


----------



## miketlse

louisarmstrong said:


> So Rob did answer the question. Just not mine


 
  
 I think that most equipment manufacturers dislike publicly commenting on competitors products. There is no point them accidentally generating business for libel lawyers.


----------



## analogmusic

louisarmstrong said:


> You never know dude... You never know...  He may just reply...


 
 Rob Watts does not comment on competitor products.


----------



## rkt31

consider yourself rather fortunate that the brain behind revolutionary products like Hugo, mojo and dave is himself answering and attending the queries so regularly. nobody other does that as far as I know. I termed these products revolutionary because in future you may see the technology trickling to other products like TVs , ht systems and much more.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

Nice. Really nice.


----------



## Rob Watts

andrewold said:


> Thanks Rob. Is it enough to turn my laptop off at the mains, or does it need to be physically disconnected to avoid potential RF issues?


 
 No, ground is still connected. And even if it was switched ground, the capacitance of the switch would be at best similar to the galvanic isolator capacitance. I pull the charger cable out from the lap-top's power port for critical listening. 
  
 Rob


----------



## LouisArmstrong

Would a good power cable such as the Siltech Royal Signature Series Ruby Hill 2 benefit the Chord Dave significantly?


----------



## bigfatpaulie

So I made a mistake and I need some suggestions...
  
 I am scaling down to just the DAVE and part of this is that I sold my PS Audio P3.  I listed it and it sold much quicker than I thought it would...  Anyways, after removing it I realized that it made a difference with DAVE 
  
 Uh oh.
  
 Either way, I want something much smaller - a one outlet idea. I'm thinking something like Shunyata Venom AMP-1 but that's really not an ideal item as it is more for high draw items like a big amp.  I am also considering a PS Audio Power Base but that's bigger than I want and ideally it would be something in-line.
  
 Does anyone have a suggestion for something specifically designed for a digital source?


----------



## miketlse

bigfatpaulie said:


> So I made a mistake and I need some suggestions...
> 
> I am scaling down to just the DAVE and part of this is that I sold my PS Audio P3.  I listed it and it sold much quicker than I thought it would...  Anyways, after removing it I realized that it made a difference with DAVE
> 
> ...


 
  
 The Devialet range of amplifiers are completely digital inside (even analogue inputs get converted to digital, before any DSP or amplification).
  
 Alternatively the Chord TToby is released next month, but it is intended to partner the Hugo TT.


----------



## simchain

Thank you help
 Is there a difference of pulse array method and Dnote method?


----------



## romaz

bigfatpaulie said:


> So I made a mistake and I need some suggestions...
> 
> I am scaling down to just the DAVE and part of this is that I sold my PS Audio P3.  I listed it and it sold much quicker than I thought it would...  Anyways, after removing it I realized that it made a difference with DAVE
> 
> ...


 
 What's your budget, Paul?


----------



## bigfatpaulie

romaz said:


> What's your budget, Paul?





Hadn't considered it to be honest. I would be flexible but would want to keep it line as a ratio I suppose. $3-$4k on the high side.


----------



## romaz

bigfatpaulie said:


> Hadn't considered it to be honest. I would be flexible but would want to keep it line as a ratio I suppose. $3-$4k on the high side.


 
 Just sent you a PM.


----------



## jelt2359

romaz said:


> Just sent you a PM.


 
 Me too.


----------



## izzard1982

romaz said:


> Just sent you a PM.


 
 Roy, the suggestion you gave to Paul, is it what I think it is?


----------



## onsionsi

romaz said:


> Just sent you a PM.




Me too if you never mind Roy


----------



## romaz

izzard1982 said:


> Roy, the suggestion you gave to Paul, is it what I think it is?


 
  
 Maybe.  It's the HFC MC-6 Hemisphere.  With my DAVE and everything else I've plugged into it, the difference has been significant and it will come with a 30-day satisfaction guarantee.  It will come with Furutech's best GTX-D(R) NCF receptacles.  Not sure if the new Furutech Schuko NCF is an option.  If there is interest, PM me and perhaps a group buy can be organized at a significant discount.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

romaz said:


>


 

 GTX-D is in my opinion much more natural sounding than any of the Furutech's sockets.


----------



## yamuling

Heard from others said Mojo‘s wasapi driver sound much better than asio in windows. I tried yesterday with DAVE with Jriver21, can't hear clear difference. Any suggestion for select the driver?
  
 And I compare mine CAPS with aurender n10, n10 is different, round and stable, but not better. So I will continue using my windows8.0 system.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

I think Mac with Amarra is the way to go. Amarra has gone for much cheaper than when it started. It used to be more expensive than the Mojo.


----------



## miketlse

yamuling said:


> Heard from others said Mojo‘s wasapi driver sound much better than asio in windows. I tried yesterday with DAVE with Jriver21, can't hear clear difference. Any suggestion for select the driver?
> 
> And I compare mine CAPS with aurender n10, n10 is different, round and stable, but not better. So I will continue using my windows8.0 system.


 
  
 Have you considered downloading Windows 10? There are only a few days left of the Microsoft free upgrade offer.


----------



## yamuling

I compared win10 and win8.0 when I using my previous bricasti. 8 was better than 8.1 and 10. Caps was much better than my MacBook. Haven't try again after that. Do you using chord Asio driver?


----------



## miketlse

yamuling said:


> I compared win10 and win8.0 when I using my previous bricasti. 8 was better than 8.1 and 10. Caps was much better than my MacBook. Haven't try again after that. Do you using chord Asio driver?


 
  
 i use windows 10, and downloaded the windows asio driver from the chord site. Everything has worked fine.


----------



## paulchiu

hi all,
  
 I am reporting that this really inexpensive USB cable has some of the isolation and clarity characteristics when using the microRendu with DAVE.
  
 https://goo.gl/n2ni5Y
  
 I do not know why this is, this USB is nothing special in specs except for the two Ferrite chokes on either end.
It's light weight, thin tubes with gold contacts.  But heck, if you can get almost the microRendu sound without extra add-ons, why not.
Been running non stop with this USB cable since yesterday a playlist of DSD64 to DSD256 tracks with no dropouts, pops or pauses.
  
paul


----------



## miketlse

paulchiu said:


> hi all,
> 
> I am reporting that this really inexpensive USB cable has some of the isolation and clarity characteristics when using the microRendu with DAVE.
> 
> ...


 
  
 You don't need to spend a fortune on the USB cables (although there are many suppliers happy to persuade punters otherwise, and buy $500 or $1000 cables) - just make sure that the cable is well shielded, the connections between the cables are securely formed, and the wire properties fall within the specification limits of the USB standard.
  
 looks like you have found a cable that ticks all the boxes, and is relatively cheap.


----------



## rkt31

you are right, I have saying the same thing from past few days. use a good usb cable ( not necessarily extremely expensive) with a ferrite choke at both ends . use a laptop in battery mode and add audioquest jitterbug between the cable and in spare usb ports. ( audioquest jitterbug may not have much positive effect but then these are very cheap as compared to micro rendu and at least jitterbug will not degrade the sound. this will be a simple and hassle free setup without any extra emi rfi due to wi fi . what more even an Android in airplane mode using uapp with a very short usb cable having ferrite chokes at both ends (just like a dap with mojo and Hugo is used with a short usb cable ) can be a very cheap and yet extremely clean source for dave.


----------



## esimms86

> Maybe.  It's the HFC MC-6 Hemisphere.  With my DAVE and everything else I've plugged into it, the difference has been significant and it will come with a 30-day satisfaction guarantee.  It will come with Furutech's best GTX-D(R) NCF receptacles.  Not sure if the new Furutech Schuko NCF is an option.  If there is interest, PM me and perhaps a group buy can be organized at a significant discount.


 

 Hi Roy. Just placed an order for the MC-6 Hemisphere. It sounds like they don't usually keep it in stock and I've been quoted a 2-3 week wait before receiving mine. I plan to get a CT-1 power cable as well but, since I have to wait at least 2 weeks anyway and the CT-1 is in stock, I figure I can wait another week before laying out the extra money. BTW, what cables do you (or Rick) recommend for  connecting the MC-6 Hemisphere to the wall outlet? As it stands, I have some Black Sand and relatively lower end Shunyata Venom cables lying around that I can use. Thanks.
  
 Esau


----------



## bigfatpaulie

romaz said:


> Just sent you a PM.


 
  
  


jelt2359 said:


> Me too.


 
  
  
 You are both legends.


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> hi all,
> 
> I am reporting that this really inexpensive USB cable has some of the isolation and clarity characteristics when using the microRendu with DAVE.
> 
> ...


 
 It's interesting that this cable fixed your dropouts, Paul, but it's hard to argue with something that works, especially something this cheap.  In my testing, as long as you keep the USB cable length relatively short (<2 meters), I was unable to distinguish a difference from one cable to another although dropouts have not been a problem for me for quite some time.


----------



## romaz

esimms86 said:


> Hi Roy. Just placed an order for the MC-6 Hemisphere. It sounds like they don't usually keep it in stock and I've been quoted a 2-3 week wait before receiving mine. I plan to get a CT-1 power cable as well but, since I have to wait at least 2 weeks anyway and the CT-1 is in stock, I figure I can wait another week before laying out the extra money. BTW, what cables do you (or Rick) recommend for  connecting the MC-6 Hemisphere to the wall outlet? As it stands, I have some Black Sand and relatively lower end Shunyata Venom cables lying around that I can use. Thanks.
> 
> Esau


 
 I will PM you, Esau.


----------



## TheAttorney

theattorney said:


> But on to more serious matters, here are my initial impressions of the KE washing machine pads and how they affected DAVE:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/693686/great-bargain-isolation-discovery/15#post_12695813
> 
> Edit: To put this into perspective, I'd say the KE pad effect on SQ were more obvious than my impressions of optical cable differences, but both I'd class as incremental - compared to the microRendu that arrived this weekend, which shows great promise of being a step change improvement.


 
  
  My 2nd and concluding impressions posted here:
           http://www.head-fi.org/t/693686/great-bargain-isolation-discovery/15#post_12734333
  
 In short, the KE/DAVE/HRS sandwich has been unexpectedly successful for me, albeit not in the way originally intended. Although I'd still class the SQ improvement as incremental, it's a pretty big increment, and I couldn't get anywhere near the same improvement when the same tweaks were added to other components. This is the first time in my experience that any vibration control tweak has resulted in more than a marginal difference - and I would never have guessed that it would apply to something as solid feeling as DAVE. 
  
 Now, Beolab and probably many others may find this hard to accept, so I suggest that a DAVE owner in the US gives the KE pads a go and reports back with a second opinion. Apparently, you can get a set for $8 from Lowe's, although $20 may be more typical. The HRS Plate is much more expensive, so try to get that on trial basis.
  
 I didn't find the HRS plate unduly increased DAVE's outer temperature. In fact overall the temperature subjectively seemed slightly lower - presumably because the increased space between the shelf improved air flow.
 Aesthetically, the combination is acceptable, especially as my black DAVE is on a lower shelf and largely disappears in my dark corner of the room - probably won't be quite as acceptable on the top shelf with a spot light.
  
 Which leaves me with a question to DAVE's designers: why 8 feet?


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> It's interesting that this cable fixed your dropouts, Paul, but it's hard to argue with something that works, especially something this cheap.  In my testing, as long as you keep the USB cable length relatively short (<2 meters), I was unable to distinguish a difference from one cable to another although dropouts have not been a problem for me for quite some time.


 
  
 Hi Roy,
  
 This $5 USB cable https://goo.gl/VXWg6b  did not fix my dropouts issues when used with the microRendu.  (To that end, I am considering ordering more powerful computers in September or when Apple announce the new Macbook Pros.)
  
 What I was excited about is the quality of sound from this cheap USB cable when used directly with the DAVE and my 2014 mid Macbook Pro Retina. The sound was very close to what I loved with the microRendu when it did not drop or pause.
 I get the holographic vocals which made singers come alive, the isolation of instruments which made them easily identifiable and the slight expansion to the frontal sound stage I enjoys when using the microRendu with DAVE.  
 It is certainly not 100% as good as the microRendu, but it's darn close.
  
 Of course, I will not stop trying more things.  That's what we enjoy.
  
 paul


----------



## bigfatpaulie

I wonder if clip-on ferrite chokes would yield a similar result.


----------



## miketlse

bigfatpaulie said:


> I wonder if clip-on ferrite chokes would yield a similar result.


 
  
 I found them to help when I placed one on the USB lead from my phone to my Mojo. But they can only help remove RFI, they cannot remove clicks, pops, stuttering that are caused internally within the source - by this i mean caused by the resource problems or caching issues internal to the phone/laptop/media server/NAS etc.


----------



## Mojo ideas

miketlse said:


> The Devialet range of amplifiers are completely digital inside (even analogue inputs get converted to digital, before any DSP or amplification). Chord also have their Matching amp the Mezzo 75 which is the same dimensions as the Dave which may be stacked on top for a neat high end system.
> 
> Alternatively the Chord TToby is released next month, but it is intended to partner the Hugo TT.


----------



## miketlse

mojo ideas said:


>


 
 Thanks, I don't have your in-depth awareness/understanding of the Chord amplifier design line-up.


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> My 2nd and concluding impressions posted here:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/693686/great-bargain-isolation-discovery/15#post_12734333
> 
> In short, the KE/DAVE/HRS sandwich has been unexpectedly successful for me, albeit not in the way originally intended. Although I'd still class the SQ improvement as incremental, it's a pretty big increment, and I couldn't get anywhere near the same improvement when the same tweaks were added to other components. This is the first time in my experience that any vibration control tweak has resulted in more than a marginal difference - and I would never have guessed that it would apply to something as solid feeling as DAVE.


 
 Can you show us a picture of this sandwich?  I'm having a hard time picturing it.  To be honest, the 30 mm thick billet of aluminum used for the DAVE seems so robust I didn't expect resonance to be an issue so your findings are of interest.


----------



## miketlse

romaz said:


> Can you show us a picture of this sandwich?  I'm having a hard time picturing it.  To be honest, the 30 mm thick billet of aluminum used for the DAVE seems so robust I didn't expect resonance to be an issue so your findings are of interest.


 
  
 DAVE may be machined from a 30mm thick billet, but most (probably 90%) of the interior will have been machined away.
 Everything resonates at certain frequencies, but I too am surprised that resonance affects a solid state DAC.


----------



## esimms86

romaz said:


> I will PM you, Esau.




Thanks Roy. And another PM right back atcha.


----------



## TheAttorney

> Can you show us a picture of this sandwich?  I'm having a hard time picturing it.


 
 My photos usually come out so poorly, as they do here, but here you go...


----------



## paulchiu

theattorney said:


> My photos usually come out so poorly, as they do here, but here you go...


 
  
 Are you blocking some of the vent-holes?
  
 paul


----------



## LouisArmstrong

I have a PC with Intel 5930K CPU and GTX Titan X two-way SLI graphics cards - would that introduce a lot of interference if I connect it to the Dave? Or should I just stick with my Macbook Pro?


----------



## TheAttorney

paulchiu said:


> Are you blocking some of the vent-holes?


 
 Yes, about one third of them. Rob W had earlier posted that blocking up the holes isn't necessarily a problem, but that covering the surface in general may increase temperature. I haven't found that to be an issue at all in this particular case, but anyway I switch it to standby when I'm away from home.


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> My photos usually come out so poorly, as they do here, but here you go...


 
 Thanks for the photo.  Did you double up on the pads?  On their website, it appears they come in 2 thicknesses - 3/8 inch or 3/4 inch.  Which are these?
  
 I tend to buy into isolation devices that utilize dissimilar substrates.  For example, I am not fond of the isolation abilities of granite by itself or MDF board by itself but when you combine the two, I have found this to be more effective and this product seems to follow this principle by sandwiching a piece of inert plastic? between two layers of neoprene.
  
 These pads are designed for heavy washing machines weighing >50kg and based on their lab measurements, it would appear that the damping coefficient improves as the loading weight of the component increases.  Could this be why you're noticing improvement as you place the weight of the damping plate on top of the DAVE?  This would seem to make more sense to me.
  
 Nevertheless, given their low cost, I have ordered a few samples for my DAVE and other components including my subwoofer and my washing machine.  Instead of ordering 4 pads, for aesthetic reasons, I have ordered a single pad custom cut to the size of the DAVE that is 3/8 inch in thickness and I will compare against my Acoustic Revive TB-38H.  If it works well, I could even combine the two.  I don't have the HRS damping plates to try but I do have a fairly heavy glass tennis trophy that I can place on top of my DAVE to see if increasing the loading weight of the DAVE results in improvement of the damping characteristics of these pads.


----------



## paulchiu

theattorney said:


> Yes, about one third of them. Rob W had earlier posted that blocking up the holes isn't necessarily a problem, but that covering the surface in general may increase temperature. I haven't found that to be an issue at all in this particular case, but anyway I switch it to standby when I'm away from home.


 
  
 What is that on top blocking a third of the vent-holes?  A Shakti stone?


----------



## smial1966

It appears to be a Harmonic Resolution Systems (HRS) DP II Series Damping Plate. Probably the squarish shaped one below. Priced around $150 I recollect. 
  





  
 Quote:


paulchiu said:


> What is that on top blocking a third of the vent-holes?  A Shakti stone?


----------



## Articnoise

romaz said:


>


 
  

 Roy can you maybe describe the SQ difference/impact between the MC-6 Hemisphere and the Audience power conditioner you had before?


----------



## TheAttorney

@smail1966, yes those are indeed the ones - the smallest in that photo.
 Mine are probably mk1 as a few years old. There's a thicker more expensive DPX model that I haven't tried, but aim to one day.
 On the other thread I did describe trying 2 plates together- with mixed results. 
  
@romaz, I doubt if this is as simple as extra weight. 
 However, as per my earlier posts on that thread, I first tried the KE pads directly under DAVE's surface (bypassing the feet) and this gave no obvious improvement, which only came when I added the pads under the feet - over time, this caused a slight indent to the pads i.e. local compression - which may or may not be significant.
 PS. I 'm a bit surprised you went for so many in one go - I was only suggesting someone try one set to start with )   
 KE do a number of variants. The ones I used were the "plus" versions as per the links in that thread. I can't comment on how any of the other variants.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

Very nice stuff there. I am in another thread and people swear that there is no change in the sound of a DAP when they take the leather case off. They don't even bother trying. If we believe in stuff like the HRS, and the merits of buying expensive Hifi racks, I can't see why taking off a leather case on a DAP would not change the sound. Simple as that. 
  
 Cheers,
 Louis Armstrong


----------



## Torq

louisarmstrong said:


> Very nice stuff there. I am in another thread and people swear that there is no change in the sound of a DAP when they take the leather case off. They don't even bother trying. If we believe in stuff like the HRS, and the merits of buying expensive Hifi racks, I can't see why taking off a leather case on a DAP would not change the sound. Simple as that.
> 
> Cheers,
> Louis Armstrong


 

 Why would taking the case off (or putting one on) a DAP change it's sound?
  
 Short of the case having some interesting galvanic properties, *and* the designer of the DAP being utterly clueless and/or completely incompetent, I can't think of any reason, no matter how far-fetched, as to why there'd be any effect at all (you know, unless the case was actually either a faraday cage with a big-arsed ground connection or was channeling Maria Callas).


----------



## rkt31

some people have used still points below the audio gear ( may be for dave too) and still points provide the rigid connection ( far rigid than any pads sort of things) . in case of still points also people talk about so much more improvement . i think the connection provided by the chord dave's own feet must also be somewhere close to or in between the two methods . so can't think of much affect of these things except some extremely minor change ( may not be improvement ) which brain perceives differently. however a rigid point connection in case of speakers and sub is obviously lends much more improvement. i use only three screws in my custom speaker stands to avoid any rocking whatsoever


----------



## EVOLVIST

After reading 250 pages (yes, all 250), the thing that really sucks about the DAVE is that you cannot listen to one before you plop that kind of money down.

If you go to a car dealership, at least you can drive the damned thing to see if you like it.

I mean, I understand not being able to demo a 2k DAC, but a 13k DAC is quite a leap of faith, no matter what anybody says about the gear. I have the money;nonetheless, no matter how much you have, you still have to be smart with it.

I live in Houston, Texas, and it looks like the closest dealer to me is in NYC. That sucks. I'll be in Italy a couple of weeks from now, but the only Chord dealer I found over there does not have the DAVE. 

Hell, I'm a writer by trade, so I would even review the DAVE, which makes it even more frustrating. 

A lost customer? Perhaps. Im really very sorry for the rant, but it's killing me to hear this product, and since I live in Houston (which has an extremely small audio community - I even checked in Austin), I'm at a loss for what to do. 

I want to be able to seriously step up my game.


----------



## miketlse

evolvist said:


> After reading 250 pages (yes, all 250), the thing that really sucks about the DAVE is that you cannot listen to one before you plop that kind of money down.
> 
> If you go to a car dealership, at least you can drive the damned thing to see if you like it.
> 
> ...


 
  
 It is not a problem with DAVE, it is a problem with the poor way that some dealers treat their potential customers. 
 Contrast your experience with this guy in the UK   http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/dave-dac-cracker
  
 He had to stop listening to DAVE after just five minutes, because he could tell it was outstanding, but couldn't torture himself by listening longer to a DAC that he would be unlikely to buy because of its cost.
  
 I think the DAVE is like the Mojo, in that so many people who demo the Mojo, realise they need to buy one.
 So only risk demoing a DAVE, if you are ready to be overcome with feelings of the need to open your wallet and buy one.


----------



## ecwl

evolvist said:


> After reading 250 pages (yes, all 250), the thing that really sucks about the DAVE is that you cannot listen to one before you plop that kind of money down.
> 
> If you go to a car dealership, at least you can drive the damned thing to see if you like it.
> 
> ...


 

 Going a little off-topic, I think the challenge really is the economics behind high-end audio. I suspect your local Houston dealer could theoretically call Bluebird Music and ask for a unit. They'll either have to pay demo price or wholesale price. And at $13,300? MSRP, I'm guessing they'll have to pay $7000-10000? upfront. And if you demo'd it and didn't want to buy it, they'll have to find a way to offload the product to not lose money. If you like it but you want a new unit or a different colored unit, they'll probably have to pay another $10,000 to order your unit and sell it to you for $13,300 and then they still have to think of a way to get rid of the demo they brought in for you. So they make $3300 from you but they still are out the $7000-10000 they paid upfront for the demo. Moreover, what if you really like the unit but you call up NYC and they're willing to sell you one shipped for $12,000? So Houston would be saddled with their demo unit that they brought in just for you and the NYC store just made $2000 off the product Houston brought in.
  
 I find my local dealers are much more willing to bring in a product for demo if they know there are at least 2 and preferably 3 people who are genuinely interested in the product. Obviously, if people are willing to commit to a purchase and pay upfront, they would also be more willing to bring the product in. But there is still a danger that the product is brought in and the customer renege on the purchase so another risk to the brick-and-mortar audio store. Another problem I see my local dealers running into is that once you're willing to bring one product in, the customers will want you to bring competing products so that they can A/B the products. There is virtually no end to this. It just ties up capital to no end.
  
 Sadly, the comparison to a car dealership is so different... The total sale of cars annually in America is so great so you don't have to worry about a car not selling because you can discount it and avoid the loss whereas the total sale for even the $600 Mojo is so small by comparison, even bringing such a product in for a smaller store is a financial risk if the product doesn't sell. If you really want somebody to bring the Chord DAVE in for demo, haha, perhaps you should ask the car dealerships to bring the Chord DAVE in. The margins are fatter and they have the capital to absorb the loss...
  
 I always think of high-end audio products as purely luxury items so I actually don't mind travelling to specific places to listen to the product. I think at that price, I just factor in a vacation with the plan to listen to the specific component, be it at a show or a store. Obviously, it's not the same as demo'ing it at home in your own system. But the cost of demo'ing the product for me is folded into the vacation so even if I'm disappointed by the product, I would have had a nice vacation. I think you've probably gathered from the 250 pages here that Chord DAVE is a product that's worth flying around the world to listen to, if you're into high-end audio, specifically state of the art, top of the line performance.


----------



## EVOLVIST

All extremely good points. Thanks for the comments! 

Words, though. I deal in words all day long. I can make anybody believe what I want them to believe (at least for a short period of time).

I'm not arguing, however. Far from it! Perhaps I should just give it some time to simmer in my mind. I go to NYC from time to time, but not this year. Maybe not even the next. Well, perhaps next year I can demo one in California. That's a long time, though! 

I want an Oompa Loompa now! Haha.


----------



## miketlse

evolvist said:


> All extremely good points. Thanks for the comments!
> 
> Words, though. I deal in words all day long. I can make anybody believe what I want them to believe (at least for a short period of time).
> 
> ...


 
  
 Step 1 - Strategic thinking is called for - only arrange meetings with publishers in cities that contain Chord dealers. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Step 2 - You are then very well qualified, to prepare a few sentences explaining to your nearest and dearest, why it was essential to buy a DAVE.


----------



## shuttlepod

evolvist said:


> After reading 250 pages (yes, all 250), the thing that really sucks about the DAVE is that you cannot listen to one before you plop that kind of money down.
> 
> If you go to a car dealership, at least you can drive the damned thing to see if you like it.
> 
> ...


 

 Post #2247 in this thread is my review of the DAVE, where I mentioned that the local Chord rep allowed me a generous two-week audition in Seattle. I initially contacted Bluebird Music and they put me in touch with the local rep for the Pacific Northwest. This was an individual, not a bricks and mortar dealer. But the individual got in touch with me immediately and offered a two-week audition with a 60% deposit. I told him I was also interested in auditioning a Hugo TT for comparison purposes, and he delivered a TT at the same time as the DAVE. In short order I was auditioning both DACs. At the end of the two weeks, he refunded my deposit and I did some auditioning of other DACs before committing to the DAVE. After putting down another deposit, I waited somewhere around 4-5 weeks for delivery. The whole transaction was smooth with excellent customer service. 
  
 I have no idea whether my experience translates to other parts of the country, but I would strongly suggest you have a conversation with Jay Rein at Bluebird Music and find out what your options are.


----------



## rgs9200m

You can't hear, say, an Apex Pinnacle amp unless you go to a meet or show, and this is true for many audio items. High end audio is a niche business and retail stores are rare, not like car dealers. And if you are looking for a particular item, it's often impossible. That's always been the case. And many, many items are just sold direct. (This is especially true for speakers and other products than can cost tens of thousands of dollars).
 That's just the way it is.


----------



## romaz

articnoise said:


> Roy can you maybe describe the SQ difference/impact between the MC-6 Hemisphere and the Audience power conditioner you had before?


 
 Power conditioners are a two-edged sword.  They have the ability to lower the noise floor resulting in improved clarity and dynamics but they also have the potential to limit dynamics.  Many claim to not to be current limiting but when you compare what you get with your component straight to the wall, sometimes the tradeoff with power conditioners aren't worth it.  This is especially a concern with transformer-based power conditioners and AC regenerators and so YMMV with these things.
  
 The Audience was very good from the standpoint that it resulted in a very obvious lowering of the noise floor with my TotalDac system while only adding 30 milliohms of resistance to the circuit.  Their latest version, the TSSOX, which I upgraded to, utilized OHNO OCC copper wiring throughout (6N purity), the same wiring used in their top of the line AU24SE mains cable.  I also upgraded to the Furutech GTX-D(R) receptacles.  Each step change resulted in incremental but noticeable improvement and I was very pleased with it, especially given its compact size compared to the Shunyata Triton/Typhon or the Bybee Stealth Power Purifier that I also looked at.  The Audience combined with my Entreq grounding box resulted in such improvement with my TotalDac system that I considered them mandatory.
  
 When I got the DAVE, neither seemed to make much difference at all and this is a credit to the DAVE's design, that it is already so well isolated against RF noise that these things didn't matter much, maybe because I already have a dedicated circuit and fairly clean mains power.  And so I sold them off.  Out of principle, I connected the DAVE to a Dynamic Design Challenger AE15 mains cable which incorporates a battery-powered RF shield.  It made a small difference and looked impressive aesthetically but I could have easily stuck with the generic 18g mains cable that came with the DAVE.
  
 The MC-6 Hemisphere is different because the difference it has made has indeed been significant with my DAVE and everything else, even with my dedicated circuit.  It is not a remedy if your mains line suffers from wide voltage fluctuations nor is it a fix for ground loops.  For those things, you might need to still consider an AC regenerator or isolation transformer and of course, these things can all be combined.  I cannot fully explain the science behind this magnetic conduction technology and as always, YMMV, but like the Audience was with my TotalDac system, I consider my HFC gear mandatory with my DAVE.


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> @romaz, I doubt if this is as simple as extra weight.
> However, as per my earlier posts on that thread, I first tried the KE pads directly under DAVE's surface (bypassing the feet) and this gave no obvious improvement, which only came when I added the pads under the feet - over time, this caused a slight indent to the pads i.e. local compression - which may or may not be significant.
> PS. I 'm a bit surprised you went for so many in one go - I was only suggesting someone try one set to start with )
> KE do a number of variants. The ones I used were the "plus" versions as per the links in that thread. I can't comment on how any of the other variants.


 
 I interpreted the same thing.  The fact that these pads sounded better when placed under the DAVE's feet would suggest perhaps that the higher loading that was occurring at the feet themselves was resulting in better dampening from this product.  
  
 As for trying so many different pads right away, the low relative cost of these things made it a non-issue.  My washing machine presently shakes a mirror on our wall during the spin cycle and since this is what these pads are designed for, this was a no-brainer.  As for wanting to isolate my subwoofer so that the light sconces on my walls don't rattle, I have wanted to do this for a while.  I am hoping it will result in further tightening of my bass as well.


----------



## Ampus

There are some reports stating that Hugo sounded better while being squashed by the tank in that YouTube video ... Off to Army Surplus Depot to obtain a used tank as damping material for my incoming DAVE


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> After reading 250 pages (yes, all 250), the thing that really sucks about the DAVE is that you cannot listen to one before you plop that kind of money down.
> 
> If you go to a car dealership, at least you can drive the damned thing to see if you like it.
> 
> ...


 
 It is very admirable that you would read all 250 pages.  I have done it myself.  A nice crash course would have been to read all of Rob's posts.
  
@shuttlepod's experience is ideal.  I suggest you contact his dealer and even though you live in Texas, I'm not sure that should necessarily matter.  A sale is a sale.  The dealer in Chicago is also very easy to work with and he will work with out of state customers provided he believes you are a serious potential customer.  He offered an out-of-state in-home demo to someone here.  I believe my Chord dealer in San Francisco will also offer you the option of an in-home demo although if you decide not to buy, he will charge you a small fee.  You can also fly to Denver in October for RMAF.  I'm sure Chord and the DAVE will be there but an in-home audition would be best.


----------



## rkt31

there was a link posted in this forum for recordings of analog out of top DACs including dave. at that time I could not download the clip and later on the link was removed from the forum. can anybody provide the link again. thanks !


----------



## bmichels

romaz said:


> Power conditioners are a two-edged sword.  They have the ability to lower the noise floor resulting in improved clarity and dynamics but they also have the potential to limit dynamics.  Many claim to not to be current limiting but when you compare what you get with your component straight to the wall, sometimes the tradeoff with power conditioners aren't worth it.  This is especially a concern with transformer-based power conditioners and AC regenerators and so YMMV with these things.
> 
> The Audience was very good from the standpoint that it resulted in a very obvious lowering of the noise floor with my TotalDac system while only adding 30 milliohms of resistance to the circuit.  Their latest version, the TSSOX, which I upgraded to, utilized OHNO OCC copper wiring throughout (6N purity), the same wiring used in their top of the line AU24SE mains cable.  I also upgraded to the Furutech GTX-D(R) receptacles.  Each step change resulted in incremental but noticeable improvement and I was very pleased with it, especially given its compact size compared to the Shunyata Triton/Typhon or the Bybee Stealth Power Purifier that I also looked at.  The Audience combined with my Entreq grounding box resulted in such improvement with my TotalDac system that I considered them mandatory.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I will investigate the MC-6 Hemisphere, asking them first  if they have an European 220 volts version.


----------



## esimms86

I can't imagine there aren't some Brits here who are planning to attend CanJam London next month. I live in the US and I won't be at CanJam, however, I'm eager to read impressions of DAVE vs. the MSB Select electrostatic headphone amp and DAC. I know that it's not a fair fight price wise, plus DAVE is obviously set up for dynamic headphones. Nonetheless, we're talking about statement, reference level pieces of kit in both instances.


----------



## romaz

esimms86 said:


> I can't imagine there aren't some Brits here who are planning to attend CanJam London next month. I live in the US and I won't be at CanJam, however, I'm eager to read impressions of DAVE vs. the MSB Select electrostatic headphone amp and DAC. I know that it's not a fair fight price wise, plus DAVE is obviously set up for dynamic headphones. Nonetheless, we're talking about statement, reference level pieces of kit in both instances.


 
 I would love to hear their new electrostatic amp also but I can't imagine any headphone amp being worth $50,000.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

When I ordered my DAVE here my dealer was told that in order for them to stock the DAVE they had to order TWO from BlueBird.  This may be a Canada only thing.
  
 Anyway, he brought two in and gave me one (well, BB only had one to give him at the time) offering that if I didn't like it I could return it for a full refund and he would use it as a store demo.  It's been with me ever since.


----------



## miketlse

bigfatpaulie said:


> When I ordered my DAVE here my dealer was told that in order for them to stock the DAVE they had to order TWO from BlueBird.  This may be a Canada only thing.
> 
> Anyway, he brought two in and gave me one (well, BB only had one to give him at the time) offering that if I didn't like it I could return it for a full refund and he would use it as a store demo.  It's been with me ever since.


 
  
 A dealer who knows how to treat potential customers properly.
  
 I always remember some words said on 'The Apprentice' several years ago - "if you don't want to treat your potential customers properly, there will always be plenty of competitors happy to take them off your hands". Simple but true.


----------



## Silvertone4

evolvist said:


> After reading 250 pages (yes, all 250), the thing that really sucks about the DAVE is that you cannot listen to one before you plop that kind of money down.
> 
> If you go to a car dealership, at least you can drive the damned thing to see if you like it.
> 
> ...





Actually, Glenn Carol audio in San Antonio, TX has the Dave on demo:

http://www.gcaudio.com/contact.html


----------



## paulchiu

silvertone4 said:


> Actually, Glenn Carol audio in San Antonio, TX has the Dave on demo:
> 
> http://www.gcaudio.com/contact.html


 
  
 Galen Carol is fantastic and very patient.  
  
 Paul


----------



## EVOLVIST

silvertone4 said:


> Actually, Glenn Carol audio in San Antonio, TX has the Dave on demo:
> 
> http://www.gcaudio.com/contact.html




Oh snap! Thank you! I'll see if I can take a drive up there tomorrow!

Edit: No, scratch that. I'll have to wait until I get back from Italy. Damnnit!


----------



## analogmusic

Today was a good day for me in San Francisco. I visited Audio Vision in San Francisco California, and had the good luck to hear Chord Dave and Chord Hugo TT.

For those who say the Hugo TT is close to the Dave, sorry, but it just isn't so to my ears.

I first heard the Dave though a Naim 172/250.2/Dynaudio C2 speaker, and soon enough I was enjoying the music but something was different and immediately apparent.

1) There was a clarity to the instruments that I have never heard before, and certain instruments and notes I was hearing for the first time, on tracks I have listened to hundreds of times.

2) It soon become apparent that the instruments literally came alive out of the speakers, Rob Watts has referred to this as the depth of the soundstage coming out of Dave, very impressive, and not for hi-fi reasons

3) It is impressive, because each instrument had a clarity in the soundstage, and much more low level detail.

4) most importantly each song played, gave much huge musical enjoyment and musical goosebumps. There was a fluidity and ease to the  music that I only really hear on live performances.

The most interesting thing happened when the dealer at my request switched to the Hugo TT.

I am very familiar with the Mojo and Hugo, and the Hugo TT is better than both. I can say these are very good sources (all of them)

So on the track breathe (2am) by Anna Nalick - which gave me huge goosebumps on the Dave (and sounded very live to my ears), when we switch to the Hugo TT, I almost chocked at the drop on sound quality.

It was over in 5 seconds. The soundstage become much smaller, the clarity went down a lot, the enjoyment that was there went away. the TT sounded constrained, crude, and simply not as musical or enjoyable, by comparison with the DAVE. No musical goosebumps...

I put the DAVE back on, and all the enjoyment, musicality and 3D soundstage was back.

The Hugo TT sounds like a recording of that song, and the DAVE sounds like a live performance.

After that audition, I would simply save up for a DAVE, and forget the TT.


----------



## lovethatsound

@ analogmuisc
I'm glad that you finally got to hear the Dave and enjoy so much.I think all of the chord dacs offer great sound quality at their price point in the market.I remember you on the naim threads,when alot naim owner's where changing there naim dacs too the chord Hugo and you couldn't believe what was happening,and in fact you didn't believe us,after alot of time you got the chord Hugo and admitted that we were right,and fair play to you.Now you have heard the Dave and you want one,and i really hope you manage to get one.


----------



## iDesign

Can someone shed light on what specifically is different in the design of the Hugo and Hugo TT that make them so much more polarizing than the Mojo and DAVE?


----------



## Articnoise

romaz said:


> Power conditioners are a two-edged sword.  They have the ability to lower the noise floor resulting in improved clarity and dynamics but they also have the potential to limit dynamics.  Many claim to not to be current limiting but when you compare what you get with your component straight to the wall, sometimes the tradeoff with power conditioners aren't worth it.  This is especially a concern with transformer-based power conditioners and AC regenerators and so YMMV with these things.
> 
> The Audience was very good from the standpoint that it resulted in a very obvious lowering of the noise floor with my TotalDac system while only adding 30 milliohms of resistance to the circuit.  Their latest version, the TSSOX, which I upgraded to, utilized OHNO OCC copper wiring throughout (6N purity), the same wiring used in their top of the line AU24SE mains cable.  I also upgraded to the Furutech GTX-D(R) receptacles.  Each step change resulted in incremental but noticeable improvement and I was very pleased with it, especially given its compact size compared to the Shunyata Triton/Typhon or the Bybee Stealth Power Purifier that I also looked at.  The Audience combined with my Entreq grounding box resulted in such improvement with my TotalDac system that I considered them mandatory.
> 
> ...


 
  

 Okay thanks Roy!

  

 I guess my audio gear (and how it can be effected by the mains power) is more like what you had before with the TotalDac than now with Dave.


----------



## AndrewOld

rob watts said:


> No, ground is still connected. And even if it was switched ground, the capacitance of the switch would be at best similar to the galvanic isolator capacitance. I pull the charger cable out from the lap-top's power port for critical listening.
> 
> Rob


 

 Thanks Rob.
  
 I have to say I am a bit disappointed to find that it is necessary to disconnect my laptop in order to get the best SQ from my DAVE. You said in an earlier post http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1215#post_12220009 that "RF noise from the source can't get into DAVE". Now it turns out that it can. It is fiddly and irritating to have to disconnect my laptop, (the power cable is at the back) and easy to forget to reconnect it so it is dead the next morning. And although buying a Jitterbug is a partial solution it's not really very satisfactory to have to spend more money on a third-party product, which doesn't even totally sort the issue, not to mention that Audioquest recommend using two of them, so that's £80.  After spending £8k on a DAC I was kinda hoping it would be unimprovable! 
  
 Do you think there are other possibly better solutions? For example, Intona have a full speed USB galvanic isolator, ifiAudio offer some USB cleaning products, or one could use a USB to s/pdif convertor and optical. I haven't got the money to try all possible solutions out, or the technical knowledge to make good judgements, but it would certainly be great to be able to play my hifi without having to fiddle with wires and always get the best possible sound quality.
  
 'Scuse me moaning, but listening to music with a DAVE is such a wonderful, totally involving experience that I want to always get the most from it.


----------



## Arpiben

andrewold said:


> Thanks Rob.
> 
> I have to say I am a bit disappointed to find that it is necessary to disconnect my laptop in order to get the best SQ from my DAVE. You said in an earlier post http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1215#post_12220009 that "RF noise from the source can't get into DAVE". Now it turns out that it can. It is fiddly and irritating to have to disconnect my laptop, (the power cable is at the back) and easy to forget to reconnect it so it is dead the next morning. And although buying a Jitterbug is a partial solution it's not really very satisfactory to have to spend more money on a third-party product, which doesn't even totally sort the issue, not to mention that Audioquest recommend using two of them, so that's £80.  After spending £8k on a DAC I was kinda hoping it would be unimprovable!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Let's put your's or everyone's Audio grail quest differently, there are still few technical things you may not avoid totally.
 Even seated in the best concert room, you can't avoid somebody coughing.
 That's life. Rgds.


----------



## Rob Watts

Using another galvanic isolator won't help and will probably make things worse. No doubt other companies will offer "no compromise" USB solutions, but don't believe it. 
  
 Frankly I think you are worrying too much; 99% of the RF noise problem is removed currently by Dave; it is just the last 1% where one would want to remove the power to the source. And a single jitter-bug gets you too 99.75%. If you go with optical, you for sure will eliminate all RF; but its not _quite_ as good as the USB, as this has zero jitter/timing issues as the clock comes from Dave. Before galvanic isolation, optical was so much better than USB. Detail resolution and flow is slightly better than optical.
  
 I am listening to Dave now, and its a powered lap-top (and I have just realised I have not even put the jitter bug in), and I have been enjoying music like I have never before. I was listening to Jacqueline Du Pre Elgar this morning, and heard things I have never heard before and thought that 1965 recording just sounds stunning.
  
 So don't worry, just keep enjoying the music!
  
 Rob


----------



## rkt31

@Arpiben, many users have already said that dave is least affected by the source. that power thing with laptop may be an extremely minor issue which with other DACs can be much more. like all if you want last bit of quality from dave removing laptop power cord is a total non issue imho


----------



## Arpiben

rkt31 said:


> @Arpiben, many users have already said that dave is least affected by the source. that power thing with laptop may be an extremely minor issue which with other DACs can be much more. like all if you want last bit of quality from dave removing laptop power cord is a total non issue imho


 

 I have no doubt at all about it and fully respect everyone's quest.
 IMHO, some have better notion of what they can achieve some worry to much.


----------



## Arpiben

rob watts said:


> Using another galvanic isolator won't help and will probably make things worse. No doubt other companies will offer "no compromise" USB solutions, but don't believe it.
> 
> Frankly I think you are worrying too much; 99% of the RF noise problem is removed currently by Dave; it is just the last 1% where one would want to remove the power to the source. And a single jitter-bug gets you too 99.75%. If you go with optical, you for sure will eliminate all RF; but its not _quite_ as good as the USB, as this has zero jitter/timing issues as the clock comes from Dave. Before galvanic isolation, optical was so much better than USB. Detail resolution and flow is slightly better than optical.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Since I can be also a dreamer sometimes , please Rob do you have any plans to integrate inside Dave a digital player in future?
 Going further adding NAS access not only with electrical RJ45 access but  also with multimode 850nm fiber one (tackling. the 0.001 RF issue)...
 I fully admit that it is quite soon for writting letters to Santa Claus.
 Rgds


----------



## miketlse

arpiben said:


> Since I can be also a dreamer sometimes , please Rob do you have any plans to integrate inside Dave a digital player in future?
> Going further adding NAS access not only with electrical RJ45 access but  also with multimode 850nm fiber one (tackling. the 0.001 RF issue)...
> I fully admit that it is quite soon for writting letters to Santa Claus.
> Rgds


 
  
 Given the number of products already in the Chord pipeline, that need to be tested and rolled out, I suspect that you don't need to write your letter until 2018 Q4 at the earliest - so plenty of time to put your dreams down on paper.
  
 Given the number of albums being remixed into a 5.1 format, I think it would be nice to have a digital player that could take a 5.1 input (hdmi or dsd or whatever), split it into the individual channel streams, and then internally feed them through an array of Chord PFGAs, and output the analogue signals, ready to be externally routed to power amps. So very similar to a small AV receiver, but using chord technology.
 Maybe it is already possible to DIY generate the individual channel streams, and then feed them to an array of 3 Mojos (as a proof of concept) - but an all-in-one chord box would be interesting. - I suspect that i don't need to write my santa note until 2020 at the earliest.


----------



## pbui44

miketlse said:


> Given the number of products already in the Chord pipeline, that need to be tested and rolled out, I suspect that you don't need to write your letter until 2018 Q4 at the earliest - so plenty of time to put your dreams down on paper.
> 
> Given the number of albums being remixed into a 5.1 format, I think it would be nice to have a digital player that could take a 5.1 input (hdmi or dsd or whatever), split it into the individual channel streams, and then internally feed them through an array of Chord PFGAs, and output the analogue signals, ready to be externally routed to power amps. So very similar to a small AV receiver, but using chord technology.
> Maybe it is already possible to DIY generate the individual channel streams, and then feed them to an array of 3 Mojos (as a proof of concept) - but an all-in-one chord box would be interesting. - I suspect that i don't need to write my santa note until 2020 at the earliest.




By the Chord Dave's price tag, adding a few AV receiver chips wouldn't hurt, either....like DTS/AC3/etc. decoders with the already-robust DACs.


----------



## Arpiben

miketlse said:


> Given the number of products already in the Chord pipeline, that need to be tested and rolled out, I suspect that you don't need to write your letter until 2018 Q4 at the earliest - so plenty of time to put your dreams down on paper.
> 
> Given the number of albums being remixed into a 5.1 format, I think it would be nice to have a digital player that could take a 5.1 input (hdmi or dsd or whatever), split it into the individual channel streams, and then internally feed them through an array of Chord PFGAs, and output the analogue signals, ready to be externally routed to power amps. So very similar to a small AV receiver, but using chord technology.
> Maybe it is already possible to DIY generate the individual channel streams, and then feed them to an array of 3 Mojos (as a proof of concept) - but an all-in-one chord box would be interesting. - I suspect that i don't need to write my santa note until 2020 at the earliest.


 
  
 Since my purpose was neither to afraid Santa Claus nor make competitors afraid of him, like a nice kid I will patiently wait and every year have a look under Chrstmas' tree.


----------



## TheAttorney

romaz said:


> The MC-6 Hemisphere is different because the difference it has made has indeed been significant with my DAVE and everything else, even with my dedicated circuit.  It is not a remedy if your mains line suffers from wide voltage fluctuations nor is it a fix for ground loops.  For those things, you might need to still consider an AC regenerator or isolation transformer and of course, these things can all be combined.  I cannot fully explain the science behind this magnetic conduction technology and as always, YMMV, but like the Audience was with my TotalDac system, I consider my HFC gear mandatory with my DAVE.


 
 Once you had the MC-6 installed, did adding extra MC-0.5 waveguides still further improve the sound?
 If so, that would be a shame IMO, as the MC-6 should really have all that and more already built in.


----------



## halloweenman

Rob Watts, it's interesting to read your advice on optimising sound quality for Dave by running laptop on batteries. What are your thoughts about a wired ethernet connection vs wireless connection. Which do you think would give best sound quality and introduce the least noise to the laptop? Would it be best to use an ethernet cable from laptop to router or have nothing physically connected and just use laptop wireless connection? Thanks.


----------



## Mython

Been away from this thread for a couple of weeks.
  
 Returning to it, today, I see it is still as uber-geeky in its degree of 'audiophile-ness'


----------



## Jawed

idesign said:


> Can someone shed light on what specifically is different in the design of the Hugo and Hugo TT that make them so much more polarizing than the Mojo and DAVE?



Price?

Mojo, I would guess, sells to a lot of people who won't contemplate Hugo as it's too expensive? Perhaps mostly these are people who haven't spent time with high-end audio? It appears to have no meaningful competition at its price.

Hugo and TT are in the most competitive region. People who think they know what hi-fi is supposed to do have an opinion. People who either do or don't get the sound.

DAVE sells to people who don't care how much it costs. DAVE sounds like it was built for an unlimited budget (I think we can safely say that Rob's decades of craft correspond with an unlimited budget  ). I think there's only one person who has posted to this thread that they contemplated DAVE and bought something else or just didn't buy. I'm excluding people who won't spend that much (I'm excluding myself for the time being). It appears to have no meaningful competition at any price.

Anyone keeping track of the DAVE refuseniks?


----------



## iDesign

jawed said:


> Price?
> 
> Mojo, I would guess, sells to a lot of people who won't contemplate Hugo as it's too expensive? Perhaps mostly these are people who haven't spent time with high-end audio? It appears to have no meaningful competition at its price.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Great observations. I havent read anything from Chord or Rob Watts that clearly explains if there were deliberate design goals/objectives for the sound signatures of Hugo, Hugo TT, Mojo, and DAVE. I would be curious to know what those goals were and to understand how Rob Watts feels each of those products are or are not differentiated in sound signatures.


----------



## Mython

@ Mr Watts:
  
 Can you tell me what position DAVE would be, on the following chart, please?
  
 A bloke down the pub told me DAVE will help me enjoy my MP3s even better than my midi system, but all the other experts down the pub told me that a proper DAC should cost around a hundred thousand dollars, so I am guessing that because DAVE is too cheap, it is probably in the middle of this chart:
  
  

  
  
 (*I know what you're thinking* - that chart is an incredibly-accurate representation of how digital audio actually works, isn't it?)


----------



## pkcpga

Just switched out my older naim DAC for the Dave, after picking up the mojo as a portable little DAC for when I fly I was so impressed for a little reasonably priced DAC I auditioned the Dave and bought it instantly to match with my naim pre amp, amp and nautilus speakers.


----------



## Mython

pkcpga said:


> .... nautilus speakers.


 
  
  
 Lucky man!


----------



## pkcpga

mython said:


> Lucky man!



Thanks great speakers, I love them mine are over a decade old now and still kicking perfectly.


----------



## EVOLVIST

mython said:


> @ Mr Watts:
> 
> Can you tell me what position DAVE would be, on the following chart, please?
> 
> ...




I want the one in the middle, because I imagine she'll come more into focus when I'm completely hammered.

Is this a real question?


----------



## rkt31

seems windows with asio using foobar with no replay gain is the only thing you need as transport.  adding good usb cable is bonus. http://archimago.blogspot.in/2015/08/measurements-audiophile-sound-and.html?m=1


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> Once you had the MC-6 installed, did adding extra MC-0.5 waveguides still further improve the sound?
> If so, that would be a shame IMO, as the MC-6 should really have all that and more already built in.


 
 You will be disappointed with my answer because even if you bought HFC's Ultimate Reference Helix Power Conditioner at $24,900 and connected it to the wall with the Pro version of their mains cable at $20,900, you will still notice further improvement by plugging in one MC-6 into the wall.  At AXPONA in Chicago and again at THE Show in Newport, Rick Schultz had this exact setup and as he plugged in more and more MC-0.5s, it was clear to everyone in the room that there was improvement each time.  At one point, he had more than 40 of these MC-0.5s plugged in and there was improvement with each one.  Others here have suggested there must be some gimmick at play, that this is all marketing hype but in my own setup, I have indeed found this to be true, that the more magnets the better.  Where is the saturation point where no further magnets make a difference?  I'm not sure but I have not yet gotten to the point where I am finding the law of diminishing returns come into play.  With each piece that I have added, I am just surprised by the advancement that it brings and my decision to finally slow down has more to do with economic reasons than anything else.  As I have suggested in several posts, I would probably run out of money well before finding the point of saturation.
  
 Is this stuff for everyone?  I don't know.  It can get outrageously expensive and so many will dismiss it based on cost alone but whatever this magnetic conduction technology is doing, I have not heard anything else do what it does and it speaks to my sensibilities in exactly the same way that the DAVE does.  I have been in this hobby long enough that very few things impress me all that much anymore.  As fellow DAVE owners, I suspect this applies to many of you as well and yet the stark realism that I now experience from my system every time I turn it on never fails to impress.  I believe there are others here who are beginning to experience some of the things I am experiencing and so I will leave it at that.


----------



## Jawed

mython said:


> A bloke down the pub told me DAVE will help me enjoy my MP3s even better than my midi system,[...]



It occurred to me recently that using 10s of thousands of taps might well be the reason that Chord DACs make lossy compression sound surprisingly better than with other DACs.

A single sample might well be complete rubbish, but hiding in the background, across tens of thousands of weighted samples, there's "truth" fighting to be heard. The per sample error is, presumably, continually varying (but not in the sense of quantisation noise). A lot of samples, properly weighted, could be why the yucky effects of lossy compression are harder to hear.


----------



## TheAttorney

romaz said:


> You will be disappointed with my answer because even if you bought HFC's Ultimate Reference Helix Power Conditioner at $24,900 and connected it to the wall with the Pro version of their mains cable at $20,900, you will still notice further improvement by plugging in one *MC-6* into the wall.


 
 I'm not dissapointed that you always state it how it is. The rest of us can then choose how that fits into our world )
  
 PS: I think the MC-6 I've marked in bold above is a typo, and you meant 0.5?


----------



## romaz

jawed said:


> Anyone keeping track of the DAVE refuseniks?


 
 Yes, the DAVE will not be everyone's cup of tea.  Some have privately communicated with me that they prefer the colored harmonics of their tube DAC instead and that the DAVE can be too transparent for their tastes.  Some have told me they can't tell the difference between the DAVE and their older Chord DAC.  A few are even looking to sell their DAVE because they've decided it's not the signature they're looking for.  As good as the DAVE is, I think it's impossible for any one component to be all things to all people but I think there are reasons why the DAVE will fail to positively distinguish itself in some systems. 
  
 1)  Poor recordings.  The DAVE strives to be transparent to the recording.  It can unmask unbelievable detail and depth from even low-resolution recordings but if the recording is poor, the DAVE isn't going to sugar coat it.  I had one person tell me he couldn't tell a difference with the DAVE against his Hugo.  When I asked him what he listened to, it was almost exclusively 80s heavy metal.  
  
 2)  Substandard equipment.  Someone recently reminded me that I previously posted that what you connect _after_ the DAVE is more important than what you connect _before_ the DAVE.  I still believe this.  Because of the DAVE's wonderful isolation abilities, using a bargain basement mains cable, USB cable and computer, the DAVE can still provide you an unbelievably wonderful experience.  While it is unlikely a DAVE owner would do this, if you decided to use a pair of analog interconnects purchased at Radio Shack for $1.99 and the self-powered computer speakers that came bundled with the computer you bought 8 years ago, then all bets are off.  Even in a $100,000 system, the DAVE will likely _not_ be the weak link and will happily reveal the limitations of much of your gear.  If your equipment is of a certain low standard and you aren't willing to upgrade it, you will probably never fully realize the DAVE's potential.  As I have begun buying more of these cables from High Fidelity Cables, I am finding the DAVE easily scales with them and the DAVE is probably still capable of much more.  
  
 3)  System synergy.  If someone is established with their speaker or headphone setup and their system is bent to sound analytical and cool, some of these folks find they are now looking for a DAC to provide warmth and a more romantic feel.  This is not the DAVE and I think it is a mistake to desire this from a DAC.  If the recording is not warm and romantic, the DAVE won't make it so.  I firmly believe that the role of a DAC is simply to be faithful to the recording.  Those who appreciate what the DAVE provides know that this is a tall order and more easily claimed than actually achieved.  If you compromise transparency at the DAC for the sake of artificial color, then there's *absolutely* no way to gain that transparency back downstream.  It's forever lost.  In my view, it would be better to connect a tube buffer to the DAVE and tune that way.


----------



## Jawed

idesign said:


> Great observations. I havent read anything from Chord or Rob Watts that clearly explains if there were deliberate design goals/objectives for the sound signatures of Hugo, Hugo TT, Mojo, and DAVE. I would be curious to know what those goals were and to understand how Rob Watts feels each of those products are or are not differentiated in sound signatures.



Apart from Mojo being engineered to sound a little "forgiving" (it has a deliberate, slightly dark, sound), I think the rest is down to the components.

Hugo and TT sound relatively compromised because they only have a small pulse array (4 element). A larger pulse array, on its own, sounds better. QBD76, which has a 16 element array, seems to be preferred, over Hugo and TT. DAVE has the largest pulse array so far, with 20 elements.

So, I dare say, with FPGA capability/cost and element count in the pulse array, you get a coarse scaling for Chords current DACs. The improved power supply and other minor features differentiate Hugo and TT.


----------



## Jawed

romaz said:


> 2)  Substandard equipment. [...] If your equipment is of a certain low standard and you aren't willing to upgrade it, you will probably never fully realize the DAVE's potential.



I would dare to say that HD 650, which I was using when I bought my TT, is not good enough. My HD 800 S upgrade was a big deal. So, yeah, I can imagine it's possible to have a downstream system that hides much of DAVE's goodness.


----------



## ddanois

romaz said:


> You will be disappointed with my answer because even if you bought HFC's Ultimate Reference Helix Power Conditioner at $24,900 and connected it to the wall with the Pro version of their mains cable at $20,900, you will still notice further improvement by plugging in one MC-6 into the wall.  At AXPONA in Chicago and again at THE Show in Newport, Rick Schultz had this exact setup and as he plugged in more and more MC-0.5s, it was clear to everyone in the room that there was improvement each time.  At one point, he had more than 40 of these MC-0.5s plugged in and there was improvement with each one.  Others here have suggested there must be some gimmick at play, that this is all marketing hype but in my own setup, I have indeed found this to be true, that the more magnets the better.  Where is the saturation point where no further magnets make a difference?  I'm not sure but I have not yet gotten to the point where I am finding the law of diminishing returns come into play.  With each piece that I have added, I am just surprised by the advancement that it brings and my decision to finally slow down has more to do with economic reasons than anything else.  As I have suggested in several posts, I would probably run out of money well before finding the point of saturation.
> 
> Is this stuff for everyone?  I don't know.  It can get outrageously expensive and so many will dismiss it based on cost alone but whatever this magnetic conduction technology is doing, I have not heard anything else do what it does and it speaks to my sensibilities in exactly the same way that the DAVE does.  I have been in this hobby long enough that very few things impress me all that much anymore.  As fellow DAVE owners, I suspect this applies to many of you as well and yet the stark realism that I now experience from my system every time I turn it on never fails to impress.  I believe there are others here who are beginning to experience some of the things I am experiencing and so I will leave it at that.


 

 I've been quite interested in the potential benefits of the MC-0.5. I was hoping that you could weigh in on the best configuration. I use a PS Audio P5 AC Regenerator for my headphone setup and I've been very happy with the improved performance this device provides as it relates to power. Therefore, I wanted to get your opinion about using MC-0.5 should be used to connect the P5 to the wall or if it should be used at the various P5 sockets for the individual devices (i.e. Dave, 430HA, micro Rendu, etc.). 
  
 Appreciate any insights...Thanks.
  
 Derek


----------



## Rob Watts

halloweenman said:


> Rob Watts, it's interesting to read your advice on optimising sound quality for Dave by running laptop on batteries. What are your thoughts about a wired ethernet connection vs wireless connection. Which do you think would give best sound quality and introduce the least noise to the laptop? Would it be best to use an ethernet cable from laptop to router or have nothing physically connected and just use laptop wireless connection? Thanks.


 
 For Dave to be completely isolated from the USB source, then it needs to be completely separate from the earth or mains power; so no cables attached.
  
 In my case I used 4TB portable hard disks for the music. Doing it wireless should be OK.
  
 Rob


----------



## paulchiu

rob watts said:


> For Dave to be completely isolated from the USB source, then it needs to be completely separate from the earth or mains power; so no cables attached.
> 
> In my case I used 4TB portable hard disks for the music. Doing it wireless should be OK.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Hi Rob,
  
 Is that a wireless 4TB drive?  please post a link.
 Thanks.
  
 Paul


----------



## Rob Watts

No just a Seagate back-up plus 4TB portable hard disk. Hoping that a 6TB portable becomes available soon.
  
 Rob


----------



## miketlse

rob watts said:


> No just a Seagate back-up plus 4TB portable hard disk. Hoping that a 6TB portable becomes available soon.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Rob,
  
 Are you referring to something like this, plus a wireless dongle?
  
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Seagate-Personal-Cloud-Media-Storage/dp/B00U8XA4WI
  
 Mike


----------



## romaz

ddanois said:


> I've been quite interested in the potential benefits of the MC-0.5. I was hoping that you could weigh in on the best configuration. I use a PS Audio P5 AC Regenerator for my headphone setup and I've been very happy with the improved performance this device provides as it relates to power. Therefore, I wanted to get your opinion about using MC-0.5 should be used to connect the P5 to the wall or if it should be used at the various P5 sockets for the individual devices (i.e. Dave, 430HA, micro Rendu, etc.).
> 
> Appreciate any insights...Thanks.
> 
> Derek


 
 Hi Derek.  If you have a single MC-0.5 to try, I would suggest not plugging it into your AC regenerator but instead plugging it into the wall, preferably in the free receptacle adjacent to where your P5 is plugged into.  On another forum, a person with a P10 found this to be ideal.
  
 Regarding the newer PS Audio AC regenerators, interestingly, they have no line conditioning properties.  They provide a clean or "regenerated" AC signal, however, it will have no impact on any RF noise that is backwashed to it by other components plugged into it.
  
 To be clear, a single MC-0.5 will provide you a very small taste of what this magnetic conduction technology will offer and will not be anywhere close to what their mains cables will offer.  I still believe the biggest bang for the buck if you are a headphone user will be their headphone device which unfortunately will probably not be released until January.


----------



## romaz

Another nice mini-review of the DAVE with the new Focal Utopia ($4,000) and Elear ($1,000) headphones by Jude himself. He compares these headphones with a variety of amps from the Woo WA8 Eclipse, the Dragon Inspire IHA (by the legendary Dennis HAD), SimAudio 430HA and Cavali Liquid Carbon (both fed by the Schiit Yggy), the Meridian Prime headphone amp + DAC, and the new TotalDac d1-integral headphone DAC + amp. 

Which unit drove the Focals the best? According to Jude, "In terms of ultimate fidelity...I'd have to give the edge to Chord Electronics DAVE. Frankly, the Chord DAVE is simply incredible. I don't think I've heard a more resolving DAC or DAC/amp combo ever. I haven't yet measured anything quite like it either...So DAVE offers incredible sound and incredible measured performance. It's great with both Focals and just about any headphone you plug into it as well and when paired with the Utopia, the sheer resolution and amount of detail and information being hurled at me, it's otherworldly. Spectacular stuff."

Here's the video. To cut to the part about DAVE, skip to 36:40 into the video.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/811270/focal-elear-and-utopia-launch-with-impressions-head-fi-tv


----------



## EVOLVIST

romaz said:


> Hi Derek.  If you have a single MC-0.5 to try, I would suggest not plugging it into your AC regenerator but instead plugging it into the wall, preferably in the free receptacle adjacent to where your P5 is plugged into.  On another forum, a person with a P10 found this to be ideal.
> 
> Regarding the newer PS Audio AC regenerators, interestingly, they have no line conditioning properties.  They provide a clean or "regenerated" AC signal, however, it will have no impact on any RF noise that is backwashed to it by other components plugged into it.
> 
> To be clear, a single MC-0.5 will provide you a very small taste of what this magnetic conduction technology will offer and will not be anywhere close to what their mains cables will offer.  I still believe the biggest bang for the buck if you are a headphone user will be their headphone device which unfortunately will probably not be released until January.


 
  
 Why the MC-0.5 at that cost? There are similar items available which do a very similar trick with RFI/EMI at a fraction of the cost. I'm just curious, because really there is white paper on none of these items, actually. I'm not saying that they don't do the job, but if I was dead set on the theory, I would certainly try one of the less expensive models, first. Maybe something that you can return, if it's crap, like through Music Direct.
  
 In fact, I have one PS Audio Noise Harvester plugged into the wall right next to the power cable of the PS Audio P300. It barely lights up. I noticed no difference in SQ (but that might be because I'm using the P300, which to many, including myself, is highly sought after as still the gold standard by which PS Audio made their mark - some say that they really haven't improved on the design, although the unit is only good for a small  two-channel rig, at 300w or less).
  
 Anyway, I wouldn't say I'm an expert, but I've researched and tried to eliminate all of the common culprits that screw with SQ.


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> Why the MC-0.5 at that cost? There are similar items available which do a very similar trick with RFI/EMI at a fraction of the cost. I'm just curious, because really there is white paper on none of these items, actually. I'm not saying that they don't do the job, but if I was dead set on the theory, I would certainly try one of the less expensive models, first. Maybe something that you can return, if it's crap, like through Music Direct.
> 
> In fact, I have one PS Audio Noise Harvester plugged into the wall right next to the power cable of the PS Audio P300. It barely lights up. I noticed no difference in SQ (but that might be because I'm using the P300, which to many, including myself, is highly sought after as still the gold standard by which PS Audio made their mark - some say that they really haven't improved on the design, although the unit is only good for a small  two-channel rig, at 300w or less).
> 
> Anyway, I wouldn't say I'm an expert, but I've researched and tried to eliminate all of the common culprits that screw with SQ.


 
 Not having tried it yourself and not having had a chance to read the white papers on them, how do you know there are "similar items available which do a very similar trick?"  The technology used carries multiple patents and is unique.  Most conditioners do everything possible to eliminate EMI.  This technology does everything it can to harness EMI.  At the core of how it works, it is counter-intuitive to how many of us are taught to address power.  Your P300 is in some ways superior to PS Audio's newer regenerators because it incorporates balanced power but at its core, it is no more than an audio power amplifier with a single frequency (60Hz) output set by a sine wave oscillator. By no means is this in any way similar to magnetic conduction technology.
  
 Like I said, HFC's stuff is not cheap and so many will automatically dismiss it because of its price.  There are also those who are convinced that what they have is the best there is and there's no point trying anything else and that's fine also.  If you're completely happy with your setup, then you're in an enviable position.  
  
 As for any of HFC's gear, they all come with a 30-day money back guarantee.  Now, back to DAVE.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

Anyone tried some serious IEM listening with the Dave? Just curious. Using the Dave with IEM should be the best IEM experience of all time, no? 
  
 Cheers,
 Louis Armstrong


----------



## pkcpga

louisarmstrong said:


> Anyone tried some serious IEM listening with the Dave? Just curious. Using the Dave with IEM should be the best IEM experience of all time, no?
> 
> Cheers,
> Louis Armstrong



It's funny with the IEM's I have, mostly under a grand the mojo is friendlier sounding, for headphones like hd800 and gs1000 or rs2 or lcd 3 the Dave is amazing. I think the IEM's need such little to drive them and they're already mostly bass shy and bright so the mojo is more soothing and easier listening for longer periods with IEM's.


----------



## romaz

louisarmstrong said:


> Anyone tried some serious IEM listening with the Dave? Just curious. Using the Dave with IEM should be the best IEM experience of all time, no?
> 
> Cheers,
> Louis Armstrong


 
 When I first sent out my DHC headphone cables to get re-terminated with 6.35mm jacks for the DAVE, all I had for a couple of weeks was my Noble Kaiser 10 CIEMS and so they got a lot of time with my DAVE.  The DAVE drives them beautifully.  Where I could hear a hiss with several of my previous tube amps on the Kaiser 10s, no hiss at all with the DAVE.


----------



## Rob Watts

miketlse said:


> Rob,
> 
> Are you referring to something like this, plus a wireless dongle?
> 
> ...


 
 No its portable so I can use it in planes and hotels:
  
 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Seagate-Backup-Portable-External-Drive/dp/B01127CY26/ref=sr_1_2?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1469424022&sr=1-2&keywords=portable+hard+drive+4tb+usb+3.0
  
 Portable means it takes power from the USB connection from the lap-top, so its easy to travel around, and by disconnecting the lap-top power chord, ground is still isolated.
  
 Rob


----------



## rkt31

4tb portable earlier required external power now portable version too available.


----------



## Arpiben

rob watts said:


> For Dave to be completely isolated from the USB source, then it needs to be completely separate from the earth or mains power; so no cables attached.
> 
> In my case I used 4TB portable hard disks for the music. Doing it wireless should be OK.
> 
> Rob


 
  
  A pity that fiber connections (850nm) are not so common in Consumer Electronics' regarding wire Ethernet transport.
 Therefore no other 'earth protected' choice as the one you proposed for time being.
 Rgds


----------



## miketlse

rob watts said:


> No its portable so I can use it in planes and hotels:
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Seagate-Backup-Portable-External-Drive/dp/B01127CY26/ref=sr_1_2?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1469424022&sr=1-2&keywords=portable+hard+drive+4tb+usb+3.0
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Rob,
  
 I have been thinking about buying an additional backup drive.
 It is amazing that a 4Tb drive can be powered by just the 5V line in a USB cable.


----------



## rgs9200m

GTech makes great external solid state drives up to 4tb. I've been using nothing but external Gdrives (conventional and solid state) for about 15 years and they have always performed flawlessly; they all run cool and quiet.
 No external power is needed for the solid states.
 My oldest ones still work fine.


----------



## britneedadvice

Originally posted by Roy (Romaz)
  
 "I think it's impossible for any one component to be all things to all people but I think there are reasons why the DAVE will fail to positively distinguish itself in some systems."
  
 "1)  Poor recordings.  The DAVE strives to be transparent to the recording.  It can unmask unbelievable detail and depth from even low-resolution recordings but if the recording is poor, the DAVE isn't going to sugar coat it.  I had one person tell me he couldn't tell a difference with the DAVE against his Hugo.  When I asked him what he listened to, it was almost exclusively 80s heavy metal.  "
  
 Hi Roy
  
 Probably like you , I have many recordings of the same piece of music. (This is common for collectors of Classical Music) In some cases,I seek to have all the available recordings of my 'favourites' Many of these recordings pre-date CDs,Now,if I were to have a 'set-up' that only show cased the best, most 'transparent' recordings, then I would have to 'bin' a the greater percentage of my 'library'.
  
 Transparency is good but only to a certain point.I'm not decrying the DAVE's many attributes but there are other considerations!
  
 I have listened to many systems which would be described as 'totally transparent' and I find them hard work!
  
 Older " poor recorded" just don't sound good on such equipment .
  
 It's a balance - take for instance the well regarded Telefunken Tubes - sounded great in older 'not-so-clean' Amps but in newer 'cleaner' Amps, then maybe too bright for some/most??
  
 You have many good interesting observations to make that many seem to appreciate(me included)but be careful not to alienate yourself with such comments as "coloured harmonics" etc( especially in the light of your recent reviews ) and stated views on how you've moved your thoughts on the 'balanced system' ( again only recently expressed)
  
 As an aside, I have mentioned in the past "why no love for the Meridian system" (on Roy's thread re Music Servers).As one of the first to audition Meridian's MQA , it was evident that older poorly recorded music (from the 1950s) could be 'restored' with this system.As such , having heard this and auditioned the DAVE(and other DACs) I intend to keep my powder dry a little longer to see where this all unfolds. Interestingly, whilst this audition opened my eyes to the potential of MQA, it also made me realise that a complete Meridian System, with  their Active Speakers, was not for me -- too Transparent !! Sometimes a little "harmonic colouration" (call it what you want), pays off!
  
  
 BTW, I'll get round to replying to your recent PM-I've been pre-occupied with Family Health issues - it looked too long to read !!  probably, as always,  full of mind provoking information , there's no one on this site that gets this old Dinosaur 'moved' to try new things!!
 So, I was looking on the HFC website- as I'm sure you have? Go to ' Magnetic RCA Adapters ' a product you recommend ? Look at the picture ! What's that I see ? Looks like an Allnic HPA-5000 Headphone TUBE Amp- just like mine - HFC obviously do not think it's too bad???
  
 Cheers !


----------



## maxh22

romaz said:


> Another nice mini-review of the DAVE with the new Focal Utopia ($4,000) and Elear ($1,000) headphones by Jude himself. He compares these headphones with a variety of amps from the Woo WA8 Eclipse, the Dragon Inspire IHA (by the legendary Dennis HAD), SimAudio 430HA and Cavali Liquid Carbon (both fed by the Schiit Yggy), the Meridian Prime headphone amp + DAC, and the new TotalDac d1-integral headphone DAC + amp.
> 
> Which unit drove the Focals the best? According to Jude, "In terms of ultimate fidelity...I'd have to give the edge to Chord Electronics DAVE. Frankly, the Chord DAVE is simply incredible. I don't think I've heard a more resolving DAC or DAC/amp combo ever. I haven't yet measured anything quite like it either...So DAVE offers incredible sound and incredible measured performance. It's great with both Focals and just about any headphone you plug into it as well and when paired with the Utopia, the sheer resolution and amount of detail and information being hurled at me, it's otherworldly. Spectacular stuff."
> 
> ...


 
 I saw this video as well, Jude recently received the MSB Select II dac and MSB Select headphone amp. A $104,000 system that he said was also offered "mind-blowing resolution from a digital source (more resolution than I've ever heard from digital), without any imparted edginess, bite or harshness as a price." The headphone amp is an electro static amp so it can't directly compare to Dave's transparent amp. I also read about their dac. Hear is what it said on their website: "For the very first time in history, the output of a discrete Ladder DAC drives the headphones directly, with nothing in the way to color or degrade the highest resolution (*173 dB dynamic range*) DAC in the world, clocked by the lowest jitter (33 femtoseconds) clock in the world." 
  
 I pm'd Jude and asked him to do a comparison between the Select II and Dave. Hopefully I get a reply back from him.
  
 http://www.msbtech.com/products/headphone.php?Page=../index


----------



## romaz

britneedadvice said:


> Originally posted by Roy (Romaz)
> 
> "I think it's impossible for any one component to be all things to all people but I think there are reasons why the DAVE will fail to positively distinguish itself in some systems."
> 
> ...


 
 Hi David, I believe you've missed the point of my post.  You're suggesting I have something against sound tuning and that specifically, I have something against tubes.  This couldn't be further from the truth having owned several tube amps in the past and as I'm currently exploring tube-related gear now for my speakers.  Sound tuning is a very subjective thing and I would never propose to someone that green is better than blue or that scrambled eggs are better than eggs over easy.  What I am proposing is that you make sure your eggs actually look, smell and taste like actual eggs first before you decide to add salt and pepper to them.  
  
 There's no question that some recordings benefit from beautification and that it can be quite fun to hear different presentations of a selected piece of music.  Variety, after all, is the spice of life and it's why many of us own several headphones and why many maintain a broad collection of tubes.  I just don't think tuning should be done at the DAC level and certainly not at the expense of transparency and all of the rich detail and depth that I equate with transparency.  Once you give up transparency from the one piece of equipment that is most responsible for providing it, you can never get it back downstream.  Those magnetic RCA adapters won't bring them back and neither will your very fine Allnic headphone amp.


----------



## lovethatsound

@ maxh22
I believe their is already a thread on head-fi about the MSB Select II Dac and the MSB Select headphone amp . somebody has already heard it going and was very unimpressed with it.
MSB Technology's New Super Expensive Electrostatic Headphone Amp
Go To Post 23


----------



## ecwl

> Originally Posted by *britneedadvice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I have listened to many systems which would be described as 'totally transparent' and I find them hard work!
> Older " poor recorded" just don't sound good on such equipment .


 
  
 I think there are two aspects to this. Older recording can sound better with certain components/headphones because of sound tuning.
  
 But sometimes, people feel that transparent systems don't sound good with older recordings but the reality I find is often that the "transparent" DACs are DAC chip based and has noise floor modulation that made the sound harsh and fatiguing. So it would be interesting to see your opinion on Chord DAVE where there is no noise floor modulation. I wonder if you would still find the transparency on older recordings suboptimal.
  
 I'm definitely hearing more warts and defects on older classical recordings but I find the listening experience more enjoyable with Chord DAVE because the DAC also captures the timbre of the instruments and sometimes the recording space so much better.


----------



## miketlse

ecwl said:


> I think there are two aspects to this. Older recording can sound better with certain components/headphones because of sound tuning.
> 
> But sometimes, people feel that transparent systems don't sound good with older recordings but the reality I find is often that the "transparent" DACs are DAC chip based and has noise floor modulation that made the sound harsh and fatiguing. So it would be interesting to see your opinion on Chord DAVE where there is no noise floor modulation. I wonder if you would still find the transparency on older recordings suboptimal.
> 
> I'm definitely hearing more warts and defects on older classical recordings but I find the listening experience more enjoyable with Chord DAVE because the DAC also captures the timbre of the instruments and sometimes the recording space so much better.


 
  
 Based on what i have just read in the Bill Bruford autobiography, you can also say that many old recordings did not receive any DSP from a sound engineer, so there will be some background noise as well. Listen to some jazz recordings and you will hear the chink of glasses or knives, as the audience eats dinner in the music venue, but this was left in the recording because it helps provide context to the jazz performance. Transparent DACs and amps can reveal this detail.
  
 In contrast a lot of modern rock recordings receive much DSP by the sound engineer, so that end result is a step removed from a real life performance (in effect the music has become artificial), but all this DSP ensures that the music is enjoyable on lower end kit and mobile phones.


----------



## Rotijon

Hmm why not the LX150 for the DAVE, it has double the capacity of the LX75 chip used and is only 30 bucks more a piece.


----------



## rgs9200m

miketlse said:


> Based on what i have just read in the Bill Bruford autobiography, you can also say that many old recordings did not receive any DSP from a sound engineer, so there will be some background noise as well. Listen to some jazz recordings and you will hear the chink of glasses or knives, as the audience eats dinner in the music venue, but this was left in the recording because it helps provide context to the jazz performance. Transparent DACs and amps can reveal this detail.
> 
> In contrast a lot of modern rock recordings receive much DSP by the sound engineer, so that end result is a step removed from a real life performance (in effect the music has become artificial), but all this DSP ensures that the music is enjoyable on lower end kit and mobile phones.


 
 I think this is sad. (Just my 2 cents here.) It's like a journalist photoshopping the pictures. It's almost censorship.


----------



## JaZZ

ecwl said:


> > Originally Posted by *britneedadvice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> >
> > I have listened to many systems which would be described as 'totally transparent' and I find them hard work!
> > Older " poor recorded" just don't sound good on such equipment .
> ...


 
  
 I agree with this. I enjoy older or not so good recordings more with DAVE and its outstanding transparency as the latter helps with identifying distortions and noise and discriminating them from the musical information, which makes for a more relaxed listen (and maybe even reveals that the recording isn't that bad once you subtract the unwanted ingredients).


----------



## miketlse

rgs9200m said:


> I think this is sad. (Just my 2 cents here.) It's like a journalist photoshopping the pictures. It's almost censorship.


 
  
 I think Bill Bruford found it sad as well. One reason why he preferred jazz during the second half of his career, was that most performances include improvisation, so any recording was a recording of a particular performance. 
 All the DSP in a recording studio results in a 'perfect/clean' copy of the original lyrics/music, but it is near impossible for musicians to reproduce this during a live performance, so in a sense the CD buyer gets music that will always sound very different to any live performance.


----------



## maxh22

rotijon said:


> Hmm why not the LX150 for the DAVE, it has double the capacity of the LX75 chip used and is only 30 bucks more a piece.


 
 That's probably going to be used for Dave's successor. Since the FPGA has twice the capacity as the LX75 chip, Rob would have to spend twice as much time writing and optimizing the code. I remember him saying how much of a painstaking process it was when he was writing it was for Dave.


----------



## Rotijon

maxh22 said:


> That's probably going to be used for Dave's successor. Since the FPGA has twice the capacity as the LX75 chip, Rob what have to spend twice as much writing and optimizing the code. I remember him saying how much of a painstaking process it was when he was writing it was for Dave.


 
 Thats not how programming work.


----------



## maxh22

rotijon said:


> Thats not how programming work.


 
 From what I know, Rob filled the entire FPGA with code so using an FPGA twice as large would require significantly more time writing and optimizing his code. This would have pushed Dave's release date further back.


----------



## Mython

rotijon said:


> Hmm why not the LX150 for the DAVE, it has double the capacity of the LX75 chip used and is only 30 bucks more a piece.


 
  
 LX150 may be relatively cheap now, but DAVE was not developed now.
  
  
 As I'm sure you realise, prices of silicon chips are _continually_ changing.
  
  
 Besides, it's *not just* about horsepower (although that is a big helper for longer tap lengths)
  
 It's also about testing and development of the most effective and most efficient _strategies_ to process the digital signal. These are significant non-linearities in the duration of time necessary to develop the code to load onto any FPGA, whatever processing power it might have.
  
 Rob is pushing the frontiers of what is known about audio DAC design and its nuanced influences upon the subjectively-perceived analogue output. This means a great deal of R&D is necessary to try different strategies and maximise the effectiveness of any strategies chosen during that process.
  
  
 .


----------



## Rob Watts

mython said:


> LX150 may be relatively cheap now, but DAVE was not developed now.
> 
> 
> As I'm sure you realise, prices of silicon chips are _continually_ changing.
> ...


 
 Absolutely - I don't think people realize how much effort goes into developing something like Dave, particularly as every step in the signal path needs to be designed. Dave's first prototype PCB was designed over three years ago, and that was when the decision was made as to which FPGA, based upon price and - much more importantly - availability. FPGA companies have a terrible habit of launching vapor ware, with actual silicon being readily available many years later.
  
 As you say, far more important than the size of the FPGA is knowledge - particularly with the comparatively massive FPGA that is in Dave, and this is something that is on-going. In particular, lots of interesting things are waiting to be discovered with the Davina ADC project.
  
 Rob
  
 Rob


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> mython said:
> 
> 
> > LX150 may be relatively cheap now, but DAVE was not developed now.
> ...


 
  
 Looking forward to it!


----------



## Mython

rgs9200m said:


> miketlse said:
> 
> 
> > Based on what i have just read in the Bill Bruford autobiography, you can also say that many old recordings did not receive any DSP from a sound engineer, so there will be some background noise as well. Listen to some jazz recordings and you will hear the chink of glasses or knives, as the audience eats dinner in the music venue, but this was left in the recording because it helps provide context to the jazz performance. Transparent DACs and amps can reveal this detail.
> ...


 
  
 There are some great American electric-blues recordings, from the 1970s, that unabashedly include environmental sounds, aplenty.
  
  
 One good example is (Peter Green &) Fleetwood Mac's Live in Boston: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abg4CQgCyD0
  
 PS: see if you can tell how much the soup of the day is, while Buddy Guy and Albert Collins are dueling, without looking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBufdMML41I 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Someone scraping plates clean, in the middle of this Robben Ford performance, but it's all part of the atmosphere: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5_KR2DOCDE
  
  
 Gotta get me a DAVE some day, so I can put a magnifying glass on the details hidden in these, and so many other, recordings.


----------



## TheAttorney

The 2nd part of PF's DAVE review, plus lots of ROB W's comments here:
  
           http://positive-feedback.com/interviews/chord-dave-part-2-interview/


----------



## miketlse

mython said:


> There are some great American electric-blues recordings, from the 1970s, that unabashedly include environmental sounds, aplenty.
> 
> 
> One good example is (Peter Green &) Fleetwood Mac's Live in Boston: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abg4CQgCyD0
> ...


 
  
 In the same vein, this pair of CDs recorded at Charlie Hadens 50th birthday party/meal contain tracks with the sound of knives and glasses - the recording is very revealing using the Mojo, but I can only dream how it may sound using DAVE. I will have to wait for Mython to get his DAVE and then review the result on this thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
https://www.amazon.fr/Private-Collection-Charlie-Haden/dp/B0039TD75Y


----------



## miketlse

mython said:


> There are some great American electric-blues recordings, from the 1970s, that unabashedly include environmental sounds, aplenty.
> 
> 
> One good example is (Peter Green &) Fleetwood Mac's Live in Boston: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abg4CQgCyD0
> ...


 
  
 I listened to the Fleetwood Mac track, and then was reminded of Albatross.
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oSlZMe2WIo     On this peter green version, the close miking allows you to hear the fingers moving along the fret.
  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAefTj7GXwQ      On this recording by another musician, you can hear real delicate detail with the percussion


----------



## Sunya

romaz, I may have missed it, but do you still have the Bricasti M1? Curious what you think of it compared to Dave.


----------



## romaz

sunya said:


> romaz, I may have missed it, but do you still have the Bricasti M1? Curious what you think of it compared to Dave.


 
 No, my Bricasti M1 is long gone.  It is a highly resolving DAC and excels in its ability to present transient information.  When I first heard this DAC, I marveled at the wonderful detail and the precise and incisive attack, especially with string instruments and so I found it especially good for large orchestral music.  A warm and romantic DAC, it is not, and some may find its presentation overly caffeinated for their tastes.  It is drier in its presentation compared to the smoother liquidity of the DAVE.  The DAVE has a much blacker background and against this quieter background, it can hit harder than the M1.  While the M1 is known for its rich detail, the DAVE does it better and layers it better.  Sound stage depth is good but I have not heard any DAC do it as well as the DAVE.  While the M1 is a very good DAC, to my ears, the DAVE outperforms it in every metric that is important to me.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

I moved from a M1 to the DAVE as well and, as good as the M1 is (it really is excellent), the DAVE eclipses it entirely. 
  
 Basically, I agree with Romaz.


----------



## miketlse

There is a new review of the DAVE dac posted today http://www.head-fi.org/products/chord-dave/reviews/16526
  
@Currawong does allow his passion for music and hifi to be displayed.


----------



## Mojo ideas

miketlse said:


> There is a new review of the DAVE dac posted today http://www.head-fi.org/products/chord-dave/reviews/16526
> 
> @Currawong
> does allow his passion for music and hifi to be displayed.


 Now this is my biased veiw point but I feel It's a rather interesting display an absence of knowledge of how much a truly high technology product costs to design and manufacture, but there again I only have the actual facts and figures to go on.


----------



## miketlse

mojo ideas said:


> Now this is my biased veiw point but I feel It's a rather interesting display an absence of knowledge of how much a truly high technology product costs to design and manufacture, but there again I only have the actual facts and figures to go on.


 
  
 You have taken offence at the single paragraph where he discusses his view about value for money.
  
 The rest of the review is devoted to him saying how wonderful DAVE is from a technical point of view.
  
 Yes you know the actual facts and figures, but all manufacturers of any product, succeed according to the value that each potential customer places on their product. As long as freedom of speech exists, he is allowed to express his opinion, whether that opinion is correct or not.


----------



## Mojo ideas

miketlse said:


> You have taken offence at the single paragraph where he discusses his view about value for money.
> 
> The rest of the review is devoted to him saying how wonderful DAVE is from a technical point of view.
> 
> Yes you know the actual facts and figures, but all manufacturers of any product, succeed according to the value that each potential customer places on their product. As long as freedom of speech exists, he is allowed to express his opinion, whether that opinion is correct or not.


 It is only your opinion that I had taken offence. In fact I had not. I'd only expressed my opinion that his view was without the necessary knowledge of the facts. If he cares to contact me privately I'll be happy to furnish him with the actual costs of manufacture and the reasons behind those costs. However I think that it was John Ruskin that once said 
"It's unwise to pay too much but it's worse to pay too little. 
For when you pay too much - you may loose a little money, but if you pay too little, you may loose everything. Because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was meant to do! The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. It cannot be done" I think he was right Dave is priced as carefully and modestly as was possible for a product of its high level of performance.


----------



## miketlse

mojo ideas said:


> It is only your opinion that I had taken offence. In fact I had not. I'd only expressed my opinion that his view was without the necessary knowledge of the facts. If he cares to contact me privately I'll be happy to furnish him with the actual costs of manufacture and the reasons behind those costs. However I think that it was John Ruskin that once said
> "It's unwise to pay too much but it's worse to pay too little.
> For when you pay too much - you may loose a little money, but if you pay too little, you may loose everything. Because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was meant to do! The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. It cannot be done" I think he was right Dave priced as carefully and modestly as was possible for a product of its high level of performance.


 
  
 I gained the impression that you had taken offence, but my impression was obviously wrong, so I apologise for that.
  
 I made no comment no personal comment as to the value of DAVE.
  
 I am a believer in Voltaires belief "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it", so I just defended Currawongs right to have an opinion as to the value of DAVE, irrespective of whether his opinion is right or wrong.


----------



## Mojo ideas

miketlse said:


> I gained the impression that you had taken offence, but my impression was obviously wrong, so I apologise for that.
> I made no comment no personal comment as to the value of DAVE.
> 
> I am a believer in Voltaires belief [COLOR=252525]"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it", so [/COLOR]I just defended Currawongs right to have an opinion as to the value of DAVE, irrespective of whether his opinion is right or wrong.


Yes I'm please you feel that way it was just his opinion. However W Edward Deming of the intelligence project said " Without data its just an opinion"


----------



## jarnopp

mojo ideas said:


> Yes I'm please you feel that way it was just his opinion. However W Edward Deming of the intelligence project said " Without data its just an opinion"




This is why I love this thread. I can't afford Dave yet, but the respectful and intelligent discourse is priceless.


----------



## Currawong

mojo ideas said:


> miketlse said:
> 
> 
> > There is a new review of the DAVE dac posted today http://www.head-fi.org/products/chord-dave/reviews/16526
> ...


 

 I totally understand why you feel the way you do. The consumer has no idea what it costs to produce products, they have no idea of the blood, sweat and tears that goes into the design and implementation, let alone that Rob spent almost 3 decades working on the tech, but only sees the value in _what they get _from a product, and as much as that simply sucks, it was from that perspective. I think you have forgotten what I'd written above about how immediately after I started listening, I contemplated the possibility of whether I could somehow sell enough of my existing system to buy the DAVE, and the comment about the vastly greater value you've brought Head-Fi compared to a decade ago when a dodgy guy was screwing the covers on his $14k tube amp so tight nobody could undo them to hide two giant wall-warts that were the PSU.  Something I didn't add, but possibly should have, is that I appreciate that you guys haven't gone the way of some companies artificially inflating the price of your products for the now insane 2-channel market.
  
 These days, some people are offended that $4000 headphones exist. That too, ignores that years of R&D went into them as well. For them, a $15k product is beyond insane. From one perspective, I can say that spending $20k (DAVE + headphones) is crazy, as I could buy a car for that here. On the other hand, the years of pleasure I'd get from the system would make it worth it. There is no wrong answer, but both perspectives exist among people here.


----------



## Sunya

While the subjective *and* objective performance of DAVE can justify its high retail price, it would be interesting to know what makes DAVE more expensive to manufacture compared to the QBD76.


----------



## adyc

I don't understand why people think DAVE is expensive. Compared to MSB, dcs, EMM or TotalDAC. It is a bargain because DAVE beats them all comprehensively.

I have owned above mentioned DACs before. I always change DAC and never find them satisfactory until I got DAVE. DAVE is simply the best DAC I have ever owned and my search of DAC stopped at DAVE.

To be honest, I think Chord has mispriced DAVE too cheaply. It is too cheap that potential buyers of ultra expensive DACs do not take DAVE seriously because they think quality is directly proportional to price. I would still buy DAVE if it is twice the price. DAVE is simply that good.

Count ourselves very lucky that we can buy the best DAC on the planet so cheaply.


----------



## x RELIC x

adyc said:


> I don't understand why people think DAVE is expensive. Compared to MSB, dcs, EMM or TotalDAC. It is a bargain because DAVE beats them all comprehensively.
> 
> I have owned above mentioned DACs before. I always change DAC and never find them satisfactory until I got DAVE. DAVE is simply the best DAC I have ever owned and my search of DAC stopped at DAVE.
> 
> ...




Nice first post! I agree! 

Welcome to Head Fi!!


----------



## Mython

adyc said:


> I don't understand why people think DAVE is expensive. Compared to MSB, dcs, EMM or TotalDAC. It is a bargain because DAVE beats them all comprehensively.
> 
> I have owned above mentioned DACs before. I always change DAC and never find them satisfactory until I got DAVE. DAVE is simply the best DAC I have ever owned and my search of DAC stopped at DAVE.
> 
> ...


 

_Even though I cannot  currently afford DAVE_, I agree:
  
www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/2460#post_12498049
www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1680#post_12350702]
  
  
 ...but that's not a dig at Currawong - I'm confident he didn't intend his remarks about price in a specifically negative manner.


----------



## rgs9200m

Mr. Franks, I notice the Grados as your icon photo. Is that a PS1000(e or otherwise)? I don't know the reason you chose it, but it happens to be my one of my 2 favorite headphones with my Hugo TT. [I have the e version.] Thank you.


----------



## Currawong

I changed that line slightly to better reflect what I was trying to say, so instead of "_seems poor value"_ I now have "seems _expensive relative to what else is available". _My point was certainly not saying it was poor value, but that people often don't appreciate what it is possible to do these days. Maybe I should have added a bit more about what Rob Watts has put in to its creation, but pretty much everything I wrote was stream-of-consciousness, and I like to be succinct otherwise. 
  
 Compared to my childhood, we are truly living in the future with amazing tech and discover and have access to things that otherwise we might have only encountered by chance prior to the days of the internet.


----------



## EVOLVIST

I finally got to audition the DAVE for several hours here in Texas. I was impressed and I was unimpressed. Allow me to explain:
  
 I brought as much of my desktop rig as I could to compare my current setup with the equally British iFi iDSD micro against the DAVE, fully expecting the DAVE to kick its ass. Well, the DAVE did...and it didn't.
  
 With PCM and with the crossfeed set to 0 the iDSD and the DAVE were a wash. They sounded very, very close to the same, and the salesman agreed. There was no extra resolution with the DAVE, no special width of depth gained, nor was there anything within the redbook audio that I had never heard before. The caveat is that it took the combination of the iDSD micro and my SPL Auditor to achieve what the DAVE was doing just by plugging my HD800s direct to the DAVE's headphone jack. However, the crossfeed, at 1 & 2, on the DAVE sounded awesome, which is something that the analog crossfeed circuits on the iFi products have not been able to do. The iFi crossfeed is very subtle, and yes, while it sounds natural, it's not much of an effect, while the DAVE crossfeed sounds equally nature, only more pronounced, as if you are listening to a different system. But is the DAVE's crossfeed worth 11k or 12k more for PCM? No, I don't think so.
  
 DSD audio with the DAVE was something different. Neither me nor the salesman heard a difference in sonic quality with DSD files played through the DAVE, but they sounded just as good as the redbook presentation. Ironically, given the name of the iFi product, the iDSD micro, the iFi product playing DSD sounded harsh and edgy going through their proprietary analog filters. It took playing DSD against the DAVE for me to hear how brittle and unresolving the iFi is doing DSD.
  
 Anyway, since I listen to 95% PCM, there's no reason to get the DAVE. There just isn't.
  
 As an aside, I also auditioned the Berkeley Design Reference Alpha DAC2 against both of them, and the Berkeley killed them at every turn. I've never heard digital like this...ever! The reproduction the Berkeley gave the sound was slightly forward; nevertheless I would take that natural sound at every turn.
  
@bigfatpaulie & @romaz, when talking about the M1, was it the M1se that you guys had owned or just the standard model?


----------



## x RELIC x

Interesting observations EVOLVIST. For me what I'm hearing is more deeply in the recording with the DAVE. On the surface the macro tonality is as neutral as anything, or as coloured as anything, depending on where your neutral barometer is. The macro detail, on the surface, does indeed seem _similar_ to other DACs. It's when listening to incredibly subtle detail within the recording that I find the differences to really start to pull away. 

The extra tonality in the female vocalist that I can hear as a slight quiver or nervousness (Eva Cassidy - Nightbird). The rain outside the recording church that actually sounds like real rain drops outside, as well as water dripping from the roof (easily heard), instead of white noise (Melissa Menago - Little Crimes). The sense of space and depth in the orchestral recording (Decca Sound - Box Set - Disc 09 - Johann Strauss). These are just some of the things I've been able to get a handle on in the short term. There are some other cues that I'm picking up on like impossibly detailed cymbal hits, piano key intensity, and clearer guitar string vibrations, but these aren't shouting out at me initially the way I might have expected them to from reading impressions.

I find the DAVE's presentation to be organic and extremely detailed. Smooth and dynamic. Incredible transparency and detail without sounding bright. This last bit I find to be the way a lot of other source gear fools us to thinking there is detail, by sounding tonally bright and exaggerated. To me the DAVE does not fall in this trap and just sounds natural yet uncanny in its amount of detail.

I agree with Currawong when he says that what was considered blackness before contains information previously not heard, or simply looked over by other DACs. This is a very big deal to me. The impossibly small cues that create the naturalness of the recording environment.

With regard to the iFi gear I have an iDAC2 that I won, which iFi says sounds the equal of the iDSD (when driving headphones within the iDAC2's power output). I've personally never really been a fan and found the iDAC2 to be rather 'slow' and artificial sounding, to my ears anyway. I would never put the iFi gear anywhere near the same category as the DAVE. You obviously don't agree with this sentiment and that's fine, but I simply don't see things the same, and each of our preferences are certainly valid. You're rather lucky as you saved yourself some serious cash, lol!


----------



## rkt31

here you find Berkeley reference vs dave too .https://audiobacon.net/2016/04/15/chord-dave-review-project-evad-evaluation-dave/3/


----------



## tunes

Anyone compare the HE 1000 with the Chord Dave vs McIntosh MHA100? I know the DACs don't compare but for the differences in price is there such a huge difference for the average ear? The MHA is more versatile in allowing one to connect speakers. Is the amp in the Dave really powerful enough to drive the HEK to its full potential to loud enough volumes?


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> I finally got to audition the DAVE for several hours here in Texas. I was impressed and I was unimpressed. Allow me to explain:
> 
> I brought as much of my desktop rig as I could to compare my current setup with the equally British iFi iDSD micro against the DAVE, fully expecting the DAVE to kick its ass. Well, the DAVE did...and it didn't.
> 
> ...


 
 Congratulations, it sounds like you have found the perfect DAC for your system and for your sensibilities.  While I did not personally prefer the Berkeley Reference over the DAVE, I have not yet heard their new Reference 2.  It obviously resonated well with you.  
  
 I used to own the M1.  I have heard the M1SE and it is a very good DAC but my opinion hasn't changed.  The overall character of this DAC remains the same.
  
 I will refer to my post #3784 regarding why I believe there are some who might fail to appreciate the qualities of the DAVE.  Understand that these are my general opinions and may not be applicable to you.
  
 Aside from the fact that you listen mainly to PCM, you failed to mention what type of music you listen to and which tracks you might have used in your evaluation.  If your dealer is like most dealers, he or she probably presented you with a studio recording of Diana Krall or Rebecca Pidgeon since with most audio shows or dealerships I visit, these are the types of options that seem to be always playing.  They're well-recorded pieces but just not very challenging for a DAC to portray and the amp, cables or speakers may have as much to contribute to the tonality that you hear as the DAC.  I cannot speak for the Reference 2 because I haven't heard it but with the Reference that I heard, it sounded disappointingly flat with the live recordings that I brought with me that were recorded in an acoustical space that I know well.  Even though the Reference that I heard was very tonally rich and did especially well with even poorly recorded vocals, I cannot consider this DAC as resolving or transparent as the DAVE when it is incapable of presenting depth realistically, and to be fair, you cannot assess this well with just headphones.  You really need to also listen to speakers to know what your DAC is capable of.  With flat studio recordings (most studio recordings are flat by nature), the spatial qualities of the DAVE will not shine through because the DAVE will not create depth artificially.  Furthermore, most studio recordings will often have some degree of reverb mixed in to create a sense of artificial depth that most any DAC will be able to render even though it is not real.  In these situations, even a $100 DAC will sound as if it can recreate depth.  As a frequent attendee of live performances, such performances are what I use as my reference and it is the depth and the natural reverb of a venue that will differentiate the experience between a performance at Carnegie Hall and a performance in an anechoic studio.  For me personally, it's like visiting the Grand Canyon vs looking at a photo of the Grand Canyon.  Not surprisingly, it is this third dimension that I am most sensitive to and it is this quality that I first notice is missing when I evaluate a DAC.
  
 Since the Berkeley can't drive headphones directly, you made no mention of what amp you used and obviously the amp and even the interconnects will have some say in the tonality of the sound you heard.  Did you happen to try connecting this same amp and interconnects to the DAVE?  With very well recorded music, nothing sounds more naturally vibrant and real to me than the DAVE.  As a pianist, I have not heard another DAC portray the timbre of a piano more accurately than the DAVE.  With poorly recorded music, then a truly transparent DAC, by its nature, will  provide you the depth and detail that may be present in the recording but the glaring deficiencies will also be readily evident and so the performance may not come across as sounding completely pleasant or real.  This is where it helps to be able to add color or harmonics and this is what some DACs do but shouldn't do (in my humble opinion).  A true apples-to-apples comparison would be to compare DAVE versus Reference 2 only as DACs using the same interconnects and amp.  For me, the beauty of the DAVE is that it comes with a free headphone amp (this is the way I see it since its wonderful qualities as a DAC alone are easily worth its full asking price) for those times when I want a truly transparent presentation.  For the times when I want a more flavored presentation, then I'm free to add an outboard preamp or amp for this purpose in the same way that you are forced to do with just about any other DAC.
  
 Lastly, I have to agree with x RELIC x.  I own or have owned a few iFi pieces.  I recently evaluated their Pro iCan although it was not to my liking.  I have also heard both the iDAC2 and iDSD and no offense but for someone to say the iDSD competes on the same footing with the DAVE is a very strange statement as the chasm between these DACs and the DAVE is quite large, IMO.  It leads me to wonder if you used recordings that any DAC can do a good job with or else the things that you look for in a DAC are not the same things that I look for.


----------



## pkcpga

tunes said:


> Anyone compare the HE 1000 with the Chord Dave vs McIntosh MHA100? I know the DACs don't compare but for the differences in price is there such a huge difference for the average ear? The MHA is more versatile in allowing one to connect speakers. Is the amp in the Dave really powerful enough to drive the HEK to its full potential to loud enough volumes?



They are very different in sound, mcintosh has a very warm signature sound with purposely a tube like effect. I find mcintosh products to all have less detail retrieval because of their signature sound. Also for some reason mcintosh does not step into the year 2000 and directly play DSD. DSD is not a support format by the mcintosh. The chord Dave handles up to quad DSD so it depends on what music formats you have, the Dave has been able to power any headphone I've tried with it. The mcintosh doesn't have a more powerful headphone amp because it has a built in speaker amp they are two separate amps.


----------



## romaz

tunes said:


> Anyone compare the HE 1000 with the Chord Dave vs McIntosh MHA100? I know the DACs don't compare but for the differences in price is there such a huge difference for the average ear? The MHA is more versatile in allowing one to connect speakers. Is the amp in the Dave really powerful enough to drive the HEK to its full potential to loud enough volumes?


 
 Yes, I have.  As a soft headphone, I actually prefer the HE1000 paired with an authoritative amp like the MHA100 or a GSX-Mk2 over a soft amp like a Woo WA5 or the Moon Neo 430HA, for example.  The DAVE drives it beautifully and to its full potential as an amp, as full as I have ever heard the HE1000.  At the HE1000's input impedance, the DAVE will put out about 1 watt which will be enough to drive the DAVE to ear-splitting levels.  It is rare I have to go anywhere louder than -10dB.
  
 With regards to the DAVE as a DAC vs the MHA100, the two really aren't close.  You will have to decide if that difference is worth the MHA100's ability to drive speakers.


----------



## x RELIC x

This thread seems to have been devoid of pics for a while. Allow me to invigorate...


*Beauty shots*








*Playing with setup*



The quote on the Millenium Falcon was a gift from my daughter. I always 
seem to beat the odds with my work deadlines.


*Ring Wraith approved*



One DAC to rule them all... :rolleyes: Yes, I'm a child at heart, ask my wife.






Spoiler: There's more! Crappy cel phone pics right after unboxing




Just out of the box.



With the stand. Yes, I bought the stand.



What I said when I purchased the DAVE.



Compared to it's smaller brother, the Mojo.




*I don't care what anyone says, to me the DAVE is a beautiful piece of gear!!*


----------



## ecwl

evolvist said:


> I finally got to audition the DAVE for several hours here in Texas. I was impressed and I was unimpressed. Allow me to explain:
> 
> I brought as much of my desktop rig as I could to compare my current setup with the equally British iFi iDSD micro against the DAVE, fully expecting the DAVE to kick its ass. Well, the DAVE did...and it didn't.
> 
> With PCM and with the crossfeed set to 0 the iDSD and the DAVE were a wash.


 
  
 Evolvist, I was wondering what software you used to listen to DAVE and whether you did any upconversion? I noticed in your previous iFi iDSD posts that you sometimes convert PCM to DSD before playing them off your iDSD micro. Did you do the same for DAVE? Or did you upsample your 16/44 PCM files to a higher PCM file when playing off the DAVE? Obviously, you won't be able to do that for Berkeley Alpha DACs. Just curious.


----------



## Mython

romaz said:


> .... you failed to mention what type of music you listen to and which tracks you might have used in your evaluation.  If your dealer is like most dealers, he or she probably presented you with a studio recording of Diana Krall or Rebecca Pidgeon since with most audio shows or dealerships I visit, these are the types of options that seem to be always playing.  They're well-recorded pieces but just not very challenging for a DAC to portray and the amp, cables or speakers may have as much to contribute to the tonality that you hear as the DAC.  I cannot speak for the Reference 2 because I haven't heard it but with the Reference that I heard, it sounded disappointingly flat with the live recordings that I brought with me that were recorded in an acoustical space that I know well. ....
> 
> 
> .... to be fair, you cannot assess this well with just headphones.  You really need to also listen to speakers to know what your DAC is capable of.  With flat studio recordings (most studio recordings are flat by nature), the spatial qualities of the DAVE will not shine through because the DAVE will not create depth artificially. ....


 
  
  
 Both good points.
  
 As I've remarked to Rob, in the past, I feel that head-fi, being (understandably) so focused upon use of IEMs/CIEMs/headphones, may not be the place where DAVE will demonstrate its spatial talents so obviously as it may on websites focused upon 2-channel loudspeaker playback. Though I am a fan of IEMs/CIEMs/headphones, I feel that it is easy to become myopic and overlook how lacking this mode of audio reproduction can be, sometimes, in comparison to the spatial representation possible with 2-channel loudspeaker audio reproduction. That's in no way a dig at _EVOLVIST; _not at all. It's not personal in any way. It's merely a simple observation on the limitations of head-based audio reproduction, that I, and thousands of others, have made, over the years.


----------



## romaz

adyc said:


> I don't understand why people think DAVE is expensive. Compared to MSB, dcs, EMM or TotalDAC. It is a bargain because DAVE beats them all comprehensively.
> 
> I have owned above mentioned DACs before. I always change DAC and never find them satisfactory until I got DAVE. DAVE is simply the best DAC I have ever owned and my search of DAC stopped at DAVE.
> 
> ...


 
 I completely agree.  It's easier to see what a bargain the DAVE is when you realize it competes with DACs that sell for $100,000.  The problem is that most Head-Fiers aren't going to be using $100,000 DACs with their headphone systems when the most expensive production headphone you can buy today sells for $5,500.  It just doesn't make sense.  Realistically, most Head-Fiers are probably using DACs below $5k and so here on Head-Fi, it is understandable that the DAVE's price tag will raise an eyebrow for many, no matter how good it is.
  
 The other problem Chord has is they are often competing against themselves with the DAVE.  With something like the immensely popular Mojo, Hugo or TT, many are wondering why they would ever need the DAVE when they are already very happy with the Chord DAC they have.  Certainly, the DAVE can't be 22x better than the Mojo to justify paying 22x the Mojo's asking price but as we know, this type of logic can't be applied to an irrational and emotionally-driven hobby like high-end audio, otherwise, how would we ever justify something like an HD650 over the stock earbuds that came with your iPhone?
  
 Another problem Chord has is that there are many well-heeled 2-channel audiophiles out there who would have no problem affording the DAVE but many of these individuals have deep roots in vinyl and many of them refuse to believe that digital has arrived.  I know many 2-channel speaker audiophiles who fire up their DAC "only when I have no choice."  If you visit RMAF, AXPONA, THE Show in Munich or Newport, it's amazing how analog sources still dominate the very best rooms.
  
 For those 2-channel speaker audiophiles who have embraced digital, especially those who might own a $180,000 pair of Focal Grande Utopias or are in the market for a $600,000 pair of Magico Ultimates, Chord DACs unfortunately often don't register on their radar screens because in their minds, Chord is a headphone DAC company and headphones, in the view of many speaker-based audiophiles are second class commodities.  It would probably help Chord's cause in the minds of these audiophiles if they added a zero to the end of the DAVE's price tag but hopefully, with time, this upper echelon of audiophiles will discover the DAVE for all of its merits.
  
 Finally, it's amazing how many dealers fail to appreciate what a truly good DAC can do and it is often these dealers that end up influencing the buying decision of their customers.  You see this by their choice of music during a demo.  At AXPONA earlier this year, as I asked a certain dealer to demonstrate his DAC against my DAVE (which I brought with me), the only tracks he was initially prepared to play for me were EDM (electronic dance music) tracks by Daft Punk.  Of course, after the demo, he boasted how his much less expensive DAC that came integrated with his amp performed as well as my DAVE with this kind of music.


----------



## lovethatsound

@ xRELICx
Very nice pictures,just out of interest has the cradle you've got Dave in,improved the 
 sound,I've got to say,it certainly looks very impressive


----------



## pkcpga

romaz said:


> I completely agree.  It's easier to see what a bargain the DAVE is when you realize it competes with DACs that sell for $100,000.  The problem is that most Head-Fiers aren't going to be using $100,000 DACs with their headphone systems when the most expensive production headphone you can buy today sells for $5,500.  It just doesn't make sense.  Realistically, most Head-Fiers are probably using DACs below $5k and so here on Head-Fi, it is understandable that the DAVE's price tag will raise an eyebrow for many, no matter how good it is.
> 
> The other problem Chord has is they are often competing against themselves with the DAVE.  With something like the immensely popular Mojo, Hugo or TT, many are wondering why they would ever need the DAVE when they are already very happy with the Chord DAC they have.  Certainly, the DAVE can't be 22x better than the Mojo to justify paying 22x the Mojo's asking price but as we know, this type of logic can't be applied to an irrational and emotionally-driven hobby like high-end audio, otherwise, how would we ever justify something like an HD650 over the stock earbuds that came with your iPhone?
> 
> ...




My dealer does use the chord Dave DAC as an option in one of their upper tier rooms, but chord has developed a mid range appeal in two channel not because of their headphone DACs but because of their 2 channel choral line not being nearly as good as the Dave. Chord has been present in the home audio world for a while now they just haven't produced any stellar amps yet. I use the Dave with naim preamp, amp and b and w nautilus speakers. I found the Dave DAC was much better than my naim DAC and than few other similarly priced DACs. What's hard for most 2 channel buyers is selling them the chord Dave is a better product than the rest of chords two channel equipment. Chord needs to sell a class A amp not class AB amps they claim slide into class A category.


----------



## ecwl

romaz said:


> Finally, it's amazing how many dealers fail to appreciate what a truly good DAC can do and it is often these dealers that end up influencing the buying decision of their customers.  You see this by their choice of music during a demo.  At AXPONA earlier this year, as I asked a certain dealer to demonstrate his DAC against my DAVE (which I brought with me), the only tracks he was initially prepared to play for me were EDM (electronic dance music) tracks by Daft Punk.  Of course, after the demo, he boasted how his much less expensive DAC that came integrated with his amp performed as well as my DAVE with this kind of music.


 
 While I agree with everything that's said about music selection, I personally think that it's best not to say that you need a specific kind of music to show the difference between Chord DAVE and another DAC. I've listened to Random Access Memories by Daft Punk on Chord DAVE and I can tell you it sounds the best I've ever heard. I have a friend who loves listening to very unique musical genres that I'm not even sure how to describe. Our favorite test track for him is Cantoma's Cantoma album Marisi track. Once again, Chord DAVE really shines. Even in these so-called sub-optimal music tracks, Chord DAVE shows off how perfect the timing is so every instrumental strike is much more engaging and then Chord DAVE also ensures the accuracy of the timbre of the instruments so everything you listen to is more natural (or in the case of electronic music, more accurate to the intention of the artist).
  
 What I do think is true is that for some music selection such as electronic dance music by Daft Punk, most people truly does not have a reference point. We don't know how it "should" sound like. Because of the ubiquitousness of DAC chip based DACs, we are used to the noise floor modulation and timing distortions of limited tap length. Moreover, we are always most used to how our favorite track sounds like on our current DAC. As a result, for these more challenging music selection, it takes a much longer time for people to appreciate how Chord DAVE is truly sonically more true to the source (and IMHO superior) than other DACs. Obviously, there is also a matter of musical preference as some people prefer distortions (which sometimes I'm prone to myself).


----------



## EVOLVIST

romaz said:


> Congratulations, it sounds like you have found the perfect DAC for your system and for your sensibilities.  While I did not personally prefer the Berkeley Reference over the DAVE, I have not yet heard their new Reference 2.  It obviously resonated well with you.
> 
> I used to own the M1.  I have heard the M1SE and it is a very good DAC but my opinion hasn't changed.  The overall character of this DAC remains the same.
> 
> ...




Yeah, I don't let the dealer dictate what kind of music I should listen to; I bring my own tunes, some of them crap recordings, some of them very well recorded. I base my choice of demo music off of certain sections or cues within the song that are often difficult for DACs to reproduce regardless of recording quality. For instance, I listened to Jeff Buckley's song "Grace" in redbook, because there is quite a lot of siblilance in his voice and I want to see how a DAC handles that. Or the very beginning of Hendrix's "All Along the Watchtower," because the opening instruments are very congested and it's difficult to untangle that mess. Also I think the tape got a little chewed either on the multitrack or the master. Tracks like Patricia Barber's "Use Me" and Elvis Presley's "Fever" because I want to hear the close mic'ed upright bass, because like piano, you can tell a lot about a DAC with how it reproduces that instrument. And on and on...

Anyway, I listened to both the Berekely, the DAVE and the iDSD all through the same headphone amp, my SPL Auditor, with my same custom Mogami XLR cables. Well, not the micro, because it only has RCA outputs. All of the power was first fed through my PS Audio P300. I also used the iUSB 3.0 in and out of each rig. I could not tell the difference with the iUSB 3.0 with both the Berkeley and the DAVE, but the iDSD micro needed it, along with the Gemini cable.

As for my music software, well, I can't bring my home computer, which is an all SSD drive, 128gb ram, 6 core intel, water-cooled machine running Windows Server 2012R2. Instead, I had to use my son's little audiophile laptop I made for him (he's 13), which only has 16gb of ram. The reason I mention this with my playback software is because I use JRiver18, which still had the option to play from memory back then. I also use Jplay, along with Jplay mini, having the option to play from ram, as well. I've tried most of the other players, and yes, I've tried upsampling within my software, but I don't like, especially for an audition, because I only want the straight juice. Always kernel streaming. 

That's it in a nutshell. I ain't using no speakers. Haha!


----------



## pkcpga

tunes said:


> Anyone compare the HE 1000 with the Chord Dave vs McIntosh MHA100? I know the DACs don't compare but for the differences in price is there such a huge difference for the average ear? The MHA is more versatile in allowing one to connect speakers. Is the amp in the Dave really powerful enough to drive the HEK to its full potential to loud enough volumes?



If you are looking for a great DAC at a more affordable price the naim DAC v1 is extremely good with a class a headphone amp and a more detailed listen like the Dave but not quite as refined. But the naim piece is around 2,400 and to me has a much better DAC than the mcintosh. The naim DAC also plays DSD. And you can easily attach a rega or arcam integrated preamp, amp piece for 1,200 more that will give you a better sound for your speakers as well or spend double on the speaker amp and attach a naim intergrated amp. I'd suggest going to a hifi shop and demoing some, mcintosh is no longer tube amps just "tube like filtering" on solid state amps at a premium price.


----------



## Sonic77

I took my cheap doohicky player to my high end dealer and compared it to the Dave and it was just as good as the Dave. My skull candy headphones rule!!!!!


----------



## rkt31

I don't own Dave right now but have hugo and use it with a very revealing beyerdynamic dt880 600ohm headphones. frankly speaking while I enjoy Hugo with headphones but Hugo truly shines with a properly set speaker system. the kind of dynamism and depth Hugo offers can be best experienced with speakers. I use a sub too fed by Hugo rca out which further adds the magic of Hugo's ultimate bass definition. for comparing sometimes you need a bit of extra time as in a non familiar environment the brain finds it difficult to focus.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

evolvist said:


> @bigfatpaulie & @romaz, when talking about the M1, was it the M1se that you guys had owned or just the standard model?


 
  
 I owned just the standard model.


----------



## Crgreen

evolvist said:


> Yeah, I don't let the dealer dictate what kind of music I should listen to; I bring my own tunes, some of them crap recordings, some of them very well recorded. I base my choice of demo music off of certain sections or cues within the song that are often difficult for DACs to reproduce regardless of recording quality. For instance, I listened to Jeff Buckley's song "Grace" in redbook, because there is quite a lot of siblilance in his voice and I want to see how a DAC handles that. Or the very beginning of Hendrix's "All Along the Watchtower," because the opening instruments are very congested and it's difficult to untangle that mess. Also I think the tape got a little chewed either on the multitrack or the master. Tracks like Patricia Barber's "Use Me" and Elvis Presley's "Fever" because I want to hear the close mic'ed upright bass, because like piano, you can tell a lot about a DAC with how it reproduces that instrument. And on and on...
> 
> Anyway, I listened to both the Berekely, the DAVE and the iDSD all through the same headphone amp, my SPL Auditor, with my same custom Mogami XLR cables. Well, not the micro, because it only has RCA outputs. All of the power was first fed through my PS Audio P300. I also used the iUSB 3.0 in and out of each rig. I could not tell the difference with the iUSB 3.0 with both the Berkeley and the DAVE, but the iDSD micro needed it, along with the Gemini cable.
> 
> ...




All later versions of JRiver have the option of playing from Ram, which is the preferred option. My understanding is that it 1gb is the maximum it can load (though I might be wrong) and I'm not sure why you need 128gb.


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> While I agree with everything that's said about music selection, I personally think that it's best not to say that you need a specific kind of music to show the difference between Chord DAVE and another DAC. I've listened to Random Access Memories by Daft Punk on Chord DAVE and I can tell you it sounds the best I've ever heard. I have a friend who loves listening to very unique musical genres that I'm not even sure how to describe. Our favorite test track for him is Cantoma's Cantoma album Marisi track. Once again, Chord DAVE really shines. Even in these so-called sub-optimal music tracks, Chord DAVE shows off how perfect the timing is so every instrumental strike is much more engaging and then Chord DAVE also ensures the accuracy of the timbre of the instruments so everything you listen to is more natural (or in the case of electronic music, more accurate to the intention of the artist).
> 
> What I do think is true is that for some music selection such as electronic dance music by Daft Punk, most people truly does not have a reference point. We don't know how it "should" sound like. Because of the ubiquitousness of DAC chip based DACs, we are used to the noise floor modulation and timing distortions of limited tap length. Moreover, we are always most used to how our favorite track sounds like on our current DAC. As a result, for these more challenging music selection, it takes a much longer time for people to appreciate how Chord DAVE is truly sonically more true to the source (and IMHO superior) than other DACs. Obviously, there is also a matter of musical preference as some people prefer distortions (which sometimes I'm prone to myself).


 
 I agree, the DAVE brings out the smallest details out of any recording, even at whisper levels and time resolution is one area in particular where it excels.  I also think it's good to bring a variety of musical genres during an evaluation, unique or not, so long as you are intimately familiar with those tracks.  If I have a short space of time to evaluate a piece of equipment, I am very purposeful about which tracks I prefer to listen to.  Daft Punk's Random Access Memories is very well recorded and is an excellent way of showcasing the bass of a system but as you stated, it's hard to have any reference of accuracy with synthesized music, it's truly more about which presentation you prefer rather than DAC fidelity, and with some types of music, the drive of the amplifier used or the tonality of the speakers used have as much influence on what you're hearing.  If you're looking to see how well one DAC presents even the subtlest details, then knowing the track intimately is more important than anything else but for me, complex tracks hide many more details and trip up many more DACs.  Since this is the genre I listen to the most and attend the most live performances of, my ears generally don't perk up until classical music is demonstrated but obviously, this is very listener dependent.  I try to also be careful about letting my emotions guide too much of my opinion during an initial evaluation because there is always the novelty of hearing something new and of course, there will be the contribution of other possible variables such as the amplifier and speakers or headphones that are being used that might be better or worse than what you have at home.  
  
 Trying to evaluate a piece of equipment like a DAC is not always easy especially since the ultimate goal of a DAC is to be invisible.  At the same time, in the same way that you can't really properly evaluate a Bugatti Veyron buy driving it to the local grocery store, I think it helps to have music that will challenge a DAC to make sure the performance is there.


----------



## Crgreen

Actually, with JPlay, which I also use, there's no limit, but do you really need 128gb?


----------



## x RELIC x

lovethatsound said:


> @ xRELICx
> Very nice pictures,just out of interest has the cradle you've got Dave in,improved the
> sound,I've got to say,it certainly looks very impressive




Thanks. 

Improved the sound? I don't know as I haven't listened to it without being in the cradle, and don't plan to take it out in the near future. I'm still getting used to the sound and what I'm hearing overall.


----------



## paulchiu

x relic x said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I had to wait for my legs and while speakers sound the same, there is a bit more details with an even more darker background using headphones.  The unit top and sides certainly measures cooler with the legs.
 With the legs, temp gun measures 97-99F
 Without legs, about 99-101
  
 paul


----------



## EVOLVIST

crgreen said:


> Actually, with JPlay, which I also use, there's no limit, but do you really need 128gb?




I use the machine for other things when I'm not using it for music. When I'm using it for music it's dedicated. I have several OSs that I can boot from depending on what I'm doing.


----------



## EVOLVIST

You know, all said, I can't get the sound of the DAVE out of my head either. Hmmmm... I think because I'm a headphone listener, and the input straight into the DAVE was superb, I just keep thinking about it.

What I'm REALLY thinking about, though, is the crossfeed, which sounded like you were changing to a different DAC each time you went from 1 to 2 (I didn't care for the 3rd crossfeed setting; it didn't sound near as natural as the first two).

I've read all the pages here, but I just can't remember, is there any added reverb to the DAVE crossfeed? I wonder how it's done.


----------



## Rob Watts

Cross-feed is a digital implementation of conventional 1980's analogue techniques - so mathematically it is identical to conventional analogue cross-feed.
  
 Absolutely no added reverb at all within Dave.
  
 I would recommend you try Dave at home - not that you can't hear what Dave can do in a show or at a dealers - but I find my sensitivity is an order of magnitude worse outside of home. I have often tried headphones that sounded good at a show - take them home and within 5 minutes you can have a very different impression (in both directions - much better or much worse than expectations). Moreover, it takes time to fully appreciate what Dave can do as the way it handles music is very different to conventional digital. 
  
 Rob


----------



## lovethatsound

Croos-Feed,it's amazing how some people like it,and some people don't.I personal don't use it with my hd800.It just goes to show how we all hear things in a slightly different way.


----------



## x RELIC x

lovethatsound said:


> Croos-Feed,it's amazing how some people like it,and some people don't.I personal don't use it with my hd800.It just goes to show how* we all hear things in a slightly different way*.




Is there a hearing equivalent to color blindness?_ We have different preferences_ is how I would more accurately put it. Sure, not all hearing capabilities and acuity are at the same level, but I'm sure we all can generally tell a C note from an E or G. Apologies, it's pet peeve of mine when I keep reading this. 

I like Crossfeed 3 or none, depending on the strength of the recording.... so far....

Binaural is ALWAYS no Crossfeed.


----------



## romaz

lovethatsound said:


> Croos-Feed,it's amazing how some people like it,and some people don't.I personal don't use it with my hd800.It just goes to show how we all hear things in a slightly different way.


 
 I know what you're saying.  I could easily be happy without it but I prefer it, especially Crossfeed 3.  I leave it on permanently with each of my headphones.


----------



## Jawed

lovethatsound said:


> Croos-Feed,it's amazing how some people like it,and some people don't.



I find it remixes the music too much (on my TT), so I leave it off. It doesn't simply change the apparent imaging.


----------



## bmichels

Any news from CHORD about the "new version" of the BLU CD-player that will take full advantage of the DAVE ?


----------



## miketlse

bmichels said:


> Any news from CHORD about the "new version" of the BLU CD-player that will take full advantage of the DAVE ?


 
  
 The only person who can answer that is @Mojo ideas


----------



## STR-1

Slowly getting round to trying some options with my Dave/HE1000/AK380 setup (all stock). I'm putting back decisions about adding a server to the system and focusing instead on the mains and cable upgrade for the HE1000 

My situation is a two-floor house with separate mains rings for the ground and first floor wall sockets. Not easy/convenient to switch everything off on the ground floor but at night I can arrange things so that the Dave is the only thing running off the first floor mains, and then the sound is clearly much cleaner and more detailed. Loan options from my favourite hifi dealer include a PS Audio P3 regenerator and a selection of AudioQuest mains cables. I hope to be able to get my hands on the P3 shortly but for the moment I have the AudioQuest NRG-10 mains cable, which has that company's battery-driven dielectric-bias system. Comparing that cable to stock, the sound is darker, more detailed and natural. What I can't yet make my mind up about is whether the apparent slight lack of dynamics is real or just the effect of removing some of the hash. Unfortunately, I don't have experience of using other upmarket mains cables so I don't have a feel for where the NRG-10 stacks up against other cables. Grateful for any thoughts on that. 

Can anyone report on good (or bad) experiences using the P3 (or the P5) with the Dave?

On a related matter, I have now received a couple of helpful replies to my emails from Rick Schulz at High Fidelity Cables. I would like to try one of their mains cables and perhaps also the MC-0.5 Wave Guide (thanks to romaz for his encouragement on those products). I have also now received a reply from the UK distributor, so I think a loan (at least of a mains cable - I think I would have to order the MC-0.5 directly from HFC) might now be a step closer.

Turning to the HE1000, can anyone comment on what I would gain over the stock cable if I was to go for the DHC Silver Complement. Would it be win-win all the way or are there some things that the copper stock might still be better at? Any recommendations for UK-sourced cables with similar qualities/characteristics to the Complement?

Thanks in advance for any comments.


----------



## ToroFiestaSol

Just have one question to Rob Watts.
 It's from a curiosity point only, not mean to bash or anything like that.
  
 If DAVE is the most advanced DAC ever...why it has a thin PCB, a small switching PSU and a tiny headphone amp?
 I mean, wouldn't be better to have a dual mono separated PSU, a ceramic/teflon PCB and get rid of the headphone amp?
  
 I want to audition one because of all the hype, and will probably buy one if sounds like all people in this thread says, but curiosity is killing me, why is it made that way?


----------



## rgs9200m

Is anyone who is familiar with DAVE also familiar with the EMM XDS1 (v1 or v2) CD player (or the equivalent EMM DAC) and if so, could you please offer any comparison comments? Thanks in advance. (I've been experienced with EMM sound for a long time myself; that's why I ask.)


----------



## jelt2359

str-1 said:


> Slowly getting round to trying some options with my Dave/HE1000/AK380 setup (all stock). I'm putting back decisions about adding a server to the system and focusing instead on the mains and cable upgrade for the HE1000
> 
> My situation is a two-floor house with separate mains rings for the ground and first floor wall sockets. Not easy/convenient to switch everything off on the ground floor but at night I can arrange things so that the Dave is the only thing running off the first floor mains, and then the sound is clearly much cleaner and more detailed. Loan options from my favourite hifi dealer include a PS Audio P3 regenerator and a selection of AudioQuest mains cables. I hope to be able to get my hands on the P3 shortly but for the moment I have the AudioQuest NRG-10 mains cable, which has that company's battery-driven dielectric-bias system. Comparing that cable to stock, the sound is darker, more detailed and natural. What I can't yet make my mind up about is whether the apparent slight lack of dynamics is real or just the effect of removing some of the hash. Unfortunately, I don't have experience of using other upmarket mains cables so I don't have a feel for where the NRG-10 stacks up against other cables. Grateful for any thoughts on that.
> 
> ...


 
 Try @bigfatpaulie , he sold his PSAudio before realising it made a noticeable difference.
  
 BTW, after reading your post I've dusted off my HE1000 again. With the Chord Dave feeding my EAR V12 (HE6 amp), the HE1000 sounds the best I ever heard. What an amazing combination.


----------



## romaz

str-1 said:


> Slowly getting round to trying some options with my Dave/HE1000/AK380 setup (all stock). I'm putting back decisions about adding a server to the system and focusing instead on the mains and cable upgrade for the HE1000
> 
> My situation is a two-floor house with separate mains rings for the ground and first floor wall sockets. Not easy/convenient to switch everything off on the ground floor but at night I can arrange things so that the Dave is the only thing running off the first floor mains, and then the sound is clearly much cleaner and more detailed. Loan options from my favourite hifi dealer include a PS Audio P3 regenerator and a selection of AudioQuest mains cables. I hope to be able to get my hands on the P3 shortly but for the moment I have the AudioQuest NRG-10 mains cable, which has that company's battery-driven dielectric-bias system. Comparing that cable to stock, the sound is darker, more detailed and natural. What I can't yet make my mind up about is whether the apparent slight lack of dynamics is real or just the effect of removing some of the hash. Unfortunately, I don't have experience of using other upmarket mains cables so I don't have a feel for where the NRG-10 stacks up against other cables. Grateful for any thoughts on that.
> 
> ...


 
 If you're noticing changes in your SQ during the late hours when nothing else is running, you likely will benefit from some sort of mains conditioning.  I know of several including bigfatpaulie who have noticed an improvement in SQ with their DAVE and a PS Audio AC regenerator.  I also know of one person who felt his AC regenerator (a P10) robbed his speaker system which includes a DAVE of dynamics and didn't feel the tradeoff was worthwhile and so he moved away from it.  The one area where AC regenerators may be a necessity is if you have wildly fluctuating mains voltages since an AC regenerator will tightly regulate this.  It would be ideal if you could try before you buy.
  
 As you might recall, I reviewed a variety of mains cables with my DAVE and in my system with a dedicated circuit, good earth grounding and what has proven to be fairly clean power, a variety of mains cables made no significant difference, generally not worth their high asking price.  The exception was the CT-1 mains cable by High Fidelity Cables.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/2745#post_12555029
  
 While this is an expensive mains cable, it is less expensive than most AC regenerators and may provide you at least equal if not more benefit based on how it works.  If you have access to a local dealer who can lend you a cable to try, I would encourage it.  I would be surprised if it doesn't make a significant difference.  A less expensive option that may provide you similar benefit as an AC regenerator if you have stable mains voltage would be balanced power, either in the form of a distribution block like the Son of Q by Equi=Tech or a mains cable that incorporates balanced power such as the Equi=Core series by Core Power Technologies.  These cords have become quite popular:
  
 http://www.corepowertechnologies.com/
  
 The Equi=Cores currently have no European distribution but I am aware that you can order direct from the company and I have been told they can provide these cords with UK or Schuko plugs and proper voltage ratings.  Having spoken with the company recently, because they have no European distribution, they will sell you their cables for 20% off of list and also provide a 30-day return policy.
  
 As for alternative headphone cables for the HE-1000, I was asked this question recently on another thread and here was my response:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/787020/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box/525#post_12742536
  
 Here is a recent specific review of the Silver Complement4 by bacon333 with his Abyss although I believe you will find that the benefits translate equally to the HE1000 as that has been my experience.  In this review, he also compares the Complement4 against another good alternative, the Danacable Lazuli HF:
  
 https://audiobacon.net/2016/06/19/the-double-helix-cables-silver-complement4-a-pristine-experience/
  
 In my personal experience, the DHC silver cables (Silver Complement4 and Spore4) have provided me the best SQ with any headphone that I own.  @jelt2359 recently made me aware of a new flagship that DHC just released, the Prion4 which comes in a stock and a Spore configuration.  It sounds like an incredible cable but also comes with an equally incredible price tag and probably a long wait.
  
 http://www.doublehelixcables.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=208
  
 Should you decide to buy this cable, please report back.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

Ah the P3...  Yes, thanks everyone for bringing my premature selling of it to the attention of all 
  
 I purchased the P3 originally for use with a tube amp.  I had an issue with a noise floor with it and the P3 quickly resolved the issue.  I live in a condo downtown and the AC in my building seems to fluctuate pretty heavily not to mention that there are literally hundreds of devices plugged in in the building all adding to line noise.  The P3 handled all this nicely.  
  
 Enter the DAVE.  I am trying to make my system physically smaller (condo life, am I right?) so along with the tube amp selling I listed the P3 because, after all, the DAVE is immune to everything before it.  Not the case, I assure you.  
  
 Other feel that the PS Audio units don't make a difference, and they may not.  I think if you are starting with decent power the P3 is probably not going to add anything for you.  If, however, you are in a case like mine the P3 is well worth exploring.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> If you're noticing changes in your SQ during the late hours when nothing else is running, you likely will benefit from some sort of mains conditioning.  I know of several including bigfatpaulie who have noticed an improvement in SQ with their DAVE and a PS Audio AC regenerator.  I also know of one person who felt his AC regenerator (a P10) robbed his speaker system which includes a DAVE of dynamics and didn't feel the tradeoff was worthwhile and so he moved away from it.  The one area where AC regenerators may be a necessity is if you have wildly fluctuating mains voltages since an AC regenerator will tightly regulate this.  It would be ideal if you could try before you buy.
> 
> As you might recall, I reviewed a variety of mains cables with my DAVE and in my system with a dedicated circuit, good earth grounding and what has proven to be fairly clean power, a variety of mains cables made no significant difference, generally not worth their high asking price.  The exception was the CT-1 mains cable by High Fidelity Cables.
> 
> ...




I will receive the Prion4S ( 18AWG Compliment 4 ) cable incl some other new not released cables and silver cable adapters from Peter @ DHC in 1 week in monday, so i think i going to be the first one to test the Prion4S with DAVE + Abyss. 

I will notify you my impressions incl. pictures.


----------



## EVOLVIST

rkt31 said:


> here you find Berkeley reference vs dave too .https://audiobacon.net/2016/04/15/chord-dave-review-project-evad-evaluation-dave/3/




Yeah, I remember reading that. The only thing is, the Berekely he used was the Series 1, not the new Series 2.


----------



## EVOLVIST

That being said, in all honesty, I keep thinking about the DAVE. How many of you would say that the DAVE is your "end-game" DAC (if such a thing exists)?


----------



## maxh22

evolvist said:


> That being said, in all honesty, I keep thinking about the DAVE. How many of you would say that the DAVE is your "end-game" DAC (if such a thing exists)?


 
 I must have read his Dave review a handful of time's. I found it very interesting. The Dave is not Rob's final design. He will continue building upon Dave from what he will learn from the Davina project. I don't think there will ever be an "End game" dac. Maybe if Rob reaches 1 million taps.


----------



## lovethatsound

evolvist said:


> That being said, in all honesty, I keep thinking about the DAVE. How many of you would say that the DAVE is your "end-game" DAC (if such a thing exists)?


The Dave is my End-Game DacI really don't feel the need to go any further,and i also known how lucky i am to be able to obtain such a piece of fine equipment I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy this fabulous music making machine


----------



## supabayes

evolvist said:


> That being said, in all honesty, I keep thinking about the DAVE. How many of you would say that the DAVE is your "end-game" DAC (if such a thing exists)?




Me! I don't own a Dave yet but it's close. yggy was end game some months back for me but the game got restarted after hearing Dave. In all honesty. My wife totally understand that.


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> That being said, in all honesty, I keep thinking about the DAVE. How many of you would say that the DAVE is your "end-game" DAC (if such a thing exists)?


 
 It could potentially be end game...if Rob decided to retire.  
  
 As you start to understand the differences between the various DAC architectures that are readily available today, whether it be a chip-based DAC like the Berkeley Reference 2 or an R2R ladder DAC like the MSB Select II, it becomes apparent that each of these DAC architectures has inherent limitations that Rob himself couldn't overcome and even though the components that comprise each technology can be cleverly optimized (ie better power supplies, better isolation, better resistors, better analog section, etc), ultimately, these DACs still must conform to some rigid box that will limit them.  For a chip-based DAC, it could be something like the DAC chip itself.  A good analogy would be something like a Ford Fusion.  You could bore out the engine, improve the suspension, swap in some racing tires and transform it into a NASCAR racing car and with the right driver, maybe this car even wins the Daytona 500...but this car will never win Le Mans.  It's not in its DNA and so this car will always be defined by the limitations that define all NASCAR racing cars.
  
 The DAVE is different.  It isn't forced to conform to anything and so it has more of a potential to be anything.  Just about every aspect of its performance is based on code and its only limitation is the hardware that has to run the code and the brilliance of the individual that writes the code.   Where most DAC builders strive to create a rich and organic sound, Rob's intent was to recreate the original analog wave form.  That should tell you something.  Other DAC manufacturers speak of their desire to achieve transparency when what many of them really mean is pleasing tonality, at least that's how I see it.  As a regular patron of live performances, I have never been to a performance and wished for pleasant tonality.  There's nothing wrong with pleasant tonality but if you have to give up that 3-dimensional quality of space and depth that makes a performance sound real and palpable, for me, the compromise isn't worth it.  If a tenor makes a mistake and misses a note, then he misses a note but better that than him lip-syncing to a perfectly polished pre-recorded track.  The connection for me isn't the same.  This is for me the magic of the DAVE.  The music just breathes.
  
 Once again, for poor recordings, there are some sweetened DACs that will sound better than an accurate and transparent DAC like the DAVE.  Voices might even take on a certain heavenly harmonic character, perhaps better than the actual performance and there's nothing wrong with liking this.  I like it myself.  But in my view, you can achieve the same result by adding a tube amp and rolling in a Tung Sol Round Plate 6SN7 driver tube or Western Electric 300B power tube and not end up compromising the dimensional qualities of the recording by buying a less than transparent DAC.  What happens in the future as better and better recordings become available and actually become the norm instead of the exception?  What happens if DAVINA comes to fruition and takes off?  Are we going to want to sweeten those recordings and lose out on the depth of the details that will be there in even greater abundance?
  
 Looking at your situation from a practical standpoint, for the price of a Berkeley Reference 2 (about $20k), you could buy a DAVE, the most transparent DAC I have heard that comes with the most transparent headphone amp as a bonus along with an Eddie Current Zana Deux S OTL tube amp which would pair brilliantly with your HD800 for those times when your recording warrants coloration and while you're at it, also throw in a nice collection of tubes, an HFC CT-1 mains cable, HFC CT-1 interconnects and microRendu with upgraded power supply and still end up with change in your pocket.  And as a final bonus, Chord will even throw in that Crossfeed feature that you like so much.  Sounds like the best of all worlds to me.


----------



## Torq

romaz said:


> It could potentially be end game...if Rob decided to retire.
> 
> As you start to understand the differences between the various DAC architectures that are readily available today, whether it be a chip-based DAC like the Berkeley Reference 2 or an R2R ladder DAC like the MSB Select II, it becomes apparent that each of these DAC architectures has inherent limitations that Rob himself couldn't overcome and even though the components that comprise each technology can be cleverly optimized (ie better power supplies, better isolation, better resistors, better analog section, etc), ultimately, these DACs still must conform to some rigid box that will limit them.  For a chip-based DAC, it could be something like the DAC chip itself.  A good analogy would be something like a Ford Fusion.  You could bore out the engine, improve the suspension, swap in some racing tires and transform it into a NASCAR racing car and with the right driver, maybe this car even wins the Daytona 500...but this car will never win Le Mans.  It's not in its DNA and so this car will always be defined by the limitations that define all NASCAR racing cars.
> 
> ...


 

 Despite not being done with my high-end DAC evaluation, DAVE still reigns as the best reproduction of digital audio I've ever heard.
  
 Value wise, it's a hard sell compared to things like Yggdrasil and Pavane, though it does best them, for me, in absolute performance.  To go beyond DAVE, across the board ... well, it's hard to imagine.
  
 I'm a reasonably serious patron of the arts here in Seattle.  I managed to make it to table 3, with the male lead for Tosca, and his utterly  charming girlfriend (about to play Carmen in Berlin), at our table, last year ... and my fiancé and I made the Opera magazine's "best dressed" photograph collection (really more down to her and her stunning gown, than me).  Dress-circle preferred seasons tickets etc.
  
 Serious passion for, and investment in, music.
  
 From an engineering perspective, as I'm engineer, among other things, it's hard to image what several other vendors are going to do to best DAVE.  It's not apparent to me.  The usual audiophile nonsense is not, in my opinion, going to cut it.
  
 At the same time, I can still see places, again from an engineering perspective, where DAVE _might_ be improved.
  
 Power-supply design is one area.  I'm all for SMPS implementations, done properly.  Go look at what Linn do with their Dynamik PSU.  Up to 1.14 Kw on demand with better measurements than many battery-driven linear models.  Makes me wonder what might be possible with a "dual-mono" implementation of DAVE with those kinds of PSUs and none of DAVEs, audible, display nonsense.
  
 Maybe in a non-aesthetically-repulsive chassis ... 
  
 DAVE is a tour-de-force to be sure, but I don't think it's the limit of what is possible yet.
  
_If you're ever in Seattle, ping me._


----------



## pkcpga

I'm sure there are plenty of ways they can improve the Dave on paper but the question is will it improve the sound quality. The Linn DAC is not very impressive sound wise so might be a great engineering build but nothing special to listen to. For less money the naim DAC v1 sounded better and plays high res DSD which the Linn was still incapible of playing. I like that chord invested its efforts in sound quality and being able to play any format thrown its way very well over worrying about over engineering it. Keep it simple, solid, reliable and most importantly amazing sounding from great digital to analog converting code.


----------



## Torq

pkcpga said:


> I'm sure there are plenty of ways they can improve the Dave on paper but the question is will it improve the sound quality. The Linn DAC is not very impressive sound wise so might be a great engineering build but nothing special to listen to. For less money the naim DAC v1 sounded better and plays high res DSD which the Linn was still incapible of playing. I like that chord invested its efforts in sound quality and being able to play any format thrown its way very well over worrying about over engineering it. Keep it simple, solid, reliable and most importantly amazing sounding from great digital to analog converting code.


 

 Yggdrasil, at $2299, bests Linn's line-up as I've posted here.  
  
 That said, speaking as an engineer, I can't name or find anyone that's bested their PSU design - at any price.  And either the PSU matters, in which case DAVE could do better, or it doesn't.
  
 I still consider DSD a red-herring.  Despite large-scale, multi-product, evaluation, I have found no evidence that it is better.  Different, sure, in some cases, but better ... no, not really ... not in ways that weren't directly traceable to the master at least.
  
 Linn could easily add DSD support if they thought it was worthwhile.  Given the other processing their units are doing it's a trivial implementation.  There's just not real call for it.  It's a niche within a niche with sod-all software support.  Why would they bother?


----------



## Mojo ideas

miketlse said:


> The only person who can answer that is @Mojo ideas


 We are hoping and I should re state this .....Hoping to have the first one available for one of the shows at the end of September. It's been a lot of work for Rob but I think we are close now. It'll be called 2 Blue of course .....


----------



## Mojo ideas

torofiestasol said:


> Just have one question to Rob Watts.
> It's from a curiosity point only, not mean to bash or anything like that.
> 
> If DAVE is the most advanced DAC ever...why it has a thin PCB, a small switching PSU and a tiny headphone amp?
> ...


 It simple it's because Rob is a professional and really knows what he is doing. Half of the overblown oversized overpriced products out there are not designed by such creditable or knowegable designers. Therefore they possibly tend to over compensate in their products with physical size or not really required exotic materials and components.


----------



## ToroFiestaSol

mojo ideas said:


> It simple it's because Rob is a professional and really knows what he is doing. Half of the overblown oversized overpriced products out there are not designed by such creditable or knowegable designers. Therefore they possibly tend to over compensate in their products with physical size or not really required exotic materials and components.


 
  

  
 So, are you saying that, for example, Flemming E. Rasmussen, founder of Gryphon (one of the most respected audio companies in high end audio) doesn't know how to design a DAC?
 Look, it has two oversized power supplies, dual mono layuout, super expensive components and a custom, very, very high quality PCB...


----------



## pkcpga

torq said:


> Yggdrasil, at $2299, bests Linn's line-up as I've posted here.
> 
> That said, speaking as an engineer, I can't name or find anyone that's bested their PSU design - at any price.  And either the PSU matters, in which case DAVE could do better, or it doesn't.
> 
> ...




That's fine if you see no need for DSD or dxd or better resolution format. But if you are spending 100k on a two channel set up, timing is very important and can be noticed, the less gaps in converting the better so for me I can hear the difference. Now if meridians new format can gives us similar result with 1/3 the file size that would be amazing. But people have been saying DSD is dead since 2011 and for 2015, sales were up 14% over the year before and many new titles were added again. Their also is dxd format which I person struggle to hear any improvement over high res DSD but it exists as well and people still buy it. If your happy with low res Sonus quality music that's fine and probably a large chunk of people are but those are not the people buying large scale hifi equipment. And this is something Linn is trying to sell with their upper tier speakers that cover themselves in curtains of your choice. Linn upper end speaker are almost always in hifi shops matched up with other vendors DACs and sometimes even other vendors preamps because you don't spend a lot of money to listen to music only through tidal or Spotify like Linn's app wants you to do. It's all a preference and everyone is happy with certain levels, I personally like DSD and for headphones or my home office with ls50 speakers, tidal lossless is fine. But with the Dave and nautilus speakers I want something more.


----------



## JaZZ

evolvist said:


> That being said, in all honesty, I keep thinking about the DAVE. How many of you would say that the DAVE is your "end-game" DAC (if such a thing exists)?


 
  
 I'm one of them. DAVE was the most expensive component of my audio career, but it's worth its price – I would buy it again. The sound it delivers is by far the best I've heard from any source. (Granted: I haven't heard any of today's high-end DACs.) If it really could be bettered in the next three of four years by a competitor's product (which I doubt in view of Chord's technological advance when it comes to DACs), that one will certainly cost at least the fourfold of it. And Chord Electronics itself will most likely not produce an improved sequel until five or six years from now. Which means I'm 72 then. Independent of the question if I'll be able to notice the improvement there's also the question if I'll need it. Even now I don't feel the need to invest some more money in power conditioners and cables. My humble PS Audio Ultimate Outlet quit working a year ago while developing an ugly mechanical noise. I don't miss it one bit, which means I didn't hear a difference without it. The data provider of my headphone system is a FiiO X5 II player, with a coaxial S/PDIF output. Having it attached to the mains or not doesn't make the least difference to the sound – the same as with Hugo and Mojo, BTW. The only thing I might try is a different headphone cable for my HE1000 (to explore if it gets even better than with the now Silver Dragon) – it will be a DIY project. In terms of equalizing I seem to have reached the end of my journey. That said, I wonder how this very plausible option for improving the sound on a very plausible level simply gets forgotten beside all this power cleaning and cabling efforts. How come that people aren't sensitive to amplitude nonlinearities? The HE1000 – although certainly very listenable as it is – can be massively improved by equalizing its frequency response. It also cures the softness it's often accused for (the poor stock cables may also be the culprit in many cases).
  
 The sound isn't perfect (yet) – I'm speaking of the combo DAVE/HE1000 with the latter as the limiting component –, but after all it is free from irritating flaws and easy and comfortable to listen to, moreover as close to reality as I can imagine a headphone system to get. So I'm in a phase where I'm trying to focus on the music and the enjoyment it provides instead of searching for further improvements. That's only possible due to the high quality level – also thanks to Rob's masterpiece. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  


jawed said:


> lovethatsound said:
> 
> 
> > Croos-Feed, it's amazing how some people like it, and some people don't.
> ...


 
  
 There are two problems: 1) getting used to it, 2) overcoming the preconception of a signal degradation through an artificial electronic effect. The classic Crossfeed simply means monophonizing the low-frequency content to compensate unwanted effects in speaker-based recordings for headphone reproduction (unnatural one-sided low-frequency content). In my exprerience (with my own Crossfeed implementation) it comes without any negative effects in terms of transparency, it even often plausibly recreates a passably natural soundfield. In turn such one-sided low-frequency content *is* a mixing fault (from the perspective of headphone listening) which needs to be corrected (remixed).
  


jelt2359 said:


> (...)
> 
> BTW, after reading your post I've dusted off my HE1000 again. With the Chord Dave feeding my EAR V12 (HE6 amp), the HE1000 sounds the best I ever heard. What an amazing combination.


 
  
 Actually (powerwise) you don't need an extra amp for the HE1000. The shortest signal path providing the purest signal is using DAVE's headphone output. If you need some extra coloration (or equalization), there are better options around.


----------



## miketlse

torofiestasol said:


> So, are you saying that, for example, Flemming E. Rasmussen, founder of Gryphon (one of the most respected audio companies in high end audio) doesn't know how to design a DAC?
> Look, it has two oversized power supplies, dual mono layuout, super expensive components and a custom, very, very high quality PCB...


 
  
 As an engineer involved in product development, I am curious as to why you propose that the Gryphon is a better engineered product. I have just compared the dac in the photo with a DAVE, and spotted the following interesting differences:
  

The Gryphon weights 40% more than the DAVE
The Gryphon is approx 5 times the volume of the DAVE
The signal to noise is worse for the Gryphon
The THD is worse by a factor of 100 for the Gryphon
The Gryphon would cost me approx 50% more to buy than the DAVE (and presumably I would also need to buy a headphone amp)
The Gryphon PCB does not seem to have been designed using a lean engineering philosophy (particularly the part-reduction aspect)
  
 You have puzzled me why you think the Gryphon is better engineered.


----------



## ToroFiestaSol

miketlse said:


> As an engineer involved in product development, I am curious as to why you propose that the Gryphon is a better engineered product. I have just compared the dac in the photo with a DAVE, and spotted the following interesting differences:
> 
> 
> The Gryphon weights 40% more than the DAVE
> ...


 
  
 I'm not saying that the Gryphon DAC is a better product overall, what I'm trying to express is:
  
 If Dave has a rock solid FPGA development inside, which is very impressive, why the fkn PSU is a clusterfuk?
 Why it has that headphone amp, for 520 usd you can buy this:
  

  
 That amp is overkill for any headphone and costs 520 usd...
 Why it doesn't have psu equally impressive as the software part?
 Why that fkn headphone amp? Is redundant, people that buys a +10k DAC of course have money for a headphone amp or already has a very good one.


----------



## JaZZ

torofiestasol said:


> Why it has that headphone amp, for 520 usd you can buy this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Apparently you haven't followed this thread very carefully – otherwise you wouldn't come up with something like this.
  
 DAVE has the best headphone amp you can get: none. No added distortion/coloration/signal rounding, a signal path as simple as possible for the highest possible signal purity. The DAC itself (more precisely: its line-out stage) drives the attached headphones – there's no additional amplification stage. Following Chord's design philosophy, realized already in Hugo and Mojo.


----------



## miketlse

torofiestasol said:


> I'm not saying that the Gryphon DAC is a better product overall, what I'm trying to express is:
> 
> If Dave has a rock solid FPGA development inside, which is very impressive, why the fkn PSU is a clusterfuk?
> Why it has that headphone amp, for 520 usd you can buy this:
> ...


 
  
 Those people will have the money - but why would they desire to have an additional head-amp box clustering up their hifi stand (or whatever they use)?


----------



## Sunya

torofiestasol said:


> If Dave has a rock solid FPGA development inside, which is very impressive, why the fkn PSU is a clusterfuk?


 
  
 Clueless about SMPSs I see.


----------



## lovethatsound

mojo ideas said:


> We are hoping and I should re state this .....Hoping to have the first one available for one of the shows at the end of September. It's been a lot of work for Rob but I think we are close now. It'll be called 2 Blue of course .....


Hi john
I know it's early days yet,but have you any idea how much it will cost to upgrade the blu transport to the new spec?


----------



## ecwl

mojo ideas said:


> It simple it's because Rob is a professional and really knows what he is doing. Half of the overblown oversized overpriced products out there are not designed by such creditable or knowegable designers. Therefore they possibly tend to over compensate in their products with physical size or not really required exotic materials and components.


 

 Maybe my diplomatic Chinese Canadian self would put it differently. I think other product designers are genuinely convinced of the merits other DAC designs such as R2R, DSD/PWM or DAC chips. However, in order to compensate for the inherent challenges for these DAC designs, those designers would need to compensate for these challenges with improved power supply, reduction in jitter (expensive clocks) or bespoke PCB. I'm guessing one example would be that if a DAC design is inherently prone to jitter, you're going to have to put in a more and more expensive clock to hopefully compensate for it. It's an imperfect solution but what else can you really do?


----------



## TheAttorney

torofiestasol said:


> Why that fkn headphone amp? Is redundant, people that buys a +10k DAC of course have money for a headphone amp or already has a very good one.


 
 The fact that DAVE _does_ include an integrated headphone amp, and is small and light and highly transportable (i.e. it did _not _have huge impressive looking transformers) - these were key factors that caused me to buy one.
  
 I've had my fair share of over sized over weight high end components over the years - and nothing wrong with that if it improves performance in some way, but these days I'm more impressed when the same or better results can be achieved with smaller, lighter and cleverer alternatives. I'm not saying that DAVE is perfect in every way for me for me, but I'm certainly not going to mark it down just because it's small, light and integrated. Times they are a changing.


----------



## Jawed

jazz said:


> jawed said:
> 
> 
> > lovethatsound said:
> ...



http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1890#post_12387247



jawed said:


> As to crossfeed, it usually changes the relative strength of the bass in the mix. Often the bass ends up sounding louder (especially with pop/rock).
> 
> Some early stereo jazz sounds broken with crossfeed. My theory is that this is due to an anti-phase bass response in the opposite channel from where the double-bassist is playing, for example. That's how the recording is, so you end up barely being able to hear the bassist because he disappears into the mix.
> 
> ...



There is no getting used to a recording that is broken by crossfeed: when it becomes musically inferior.

It most certainly is signal degradation in this case.


----------



## Crgreen

I'm wondering what reliable conclusions can be drawn by looking at photos of the interior of DACs.

And I can't imagine that an engineer of Rob Watt's standing would use an inferior power supply. It's clear from his contributions here that he thought through and tested every aspect of the DAVE's design. It has remarkable measurements and sounds glorious. Like a previous poster, it's about the most expensive component I've bought, leaving inflation aside, and I can't imagine being able to splash that much cash again on a hi-fi component. Apart from the DAVE I lost my desire to keep upgrading a while ago and would rather just listen to glorious music on what I consider to be a well-balanced system. The computer file front end might change - it's a rapidly evolving area - but that's probably about it. 

I assume Stereophile and the Absolute Sound will be reviewing it soon and I'll be interested to read what they say.


----------



## Torq

pkcpga said:


> That's fine if you see no need for DSD or dxd or better resolution format. But if you are spending 100k on a two channel set up, timing is very important and can be noticed, the less gaps in converting the better so for me I can hear the difference. Now if meridians new format can gives us similar result with 1/3 the file size that would be amazing. But people have been saying DSD is dead since 2011 and for 2015, sales were up 14% over the year before and many new titles were added again. Their also is dxd format which I person struggle to hear any improvement over high res DSD but it exists as well and people still buy it. If your happy with low res Sonus quality music that's fine and probably a large chunk of people are but those are not the people buying large scale hifi equipment. And this is something Linn is trying to sell with their upper tier speakers that cover themselves in curtains of your choice. Linn upper end speaker are almost always in hifi shops matched up with other vendors DACs and sometimes even other vendors preamps because you don't spend a lot of money to listen to music only through tidal or Spotify like Linn's app wants you to do. It's all a preference and everyone is happy with certain levels, I personally like DSD and for headphones or my home office with ls50 speakers, tidal lossless is fine. But with the Dave and nautilus speakers I want something more.


 

 I hear a difference with DSD and DXD ... just not anything that's consistently _better_.
  
 And when DSD has beaten PCM, for me, it has always turned out to be down to the master not the format.  Converting the same files to PCM didn't lose anything in my evaluations.
  
 That's just me though, and since it's my money I'm spending to get results I like that's really all I care about.
  
 The Nautilus are fabulous speakers.  
  
 I used to run a quintet of the big Meridian 8000 series speakers.  Probably the most accurate reproduction I've heard in a speaker system ... but really not that musical so I stepped back to something that didn't require I buy/build my house around them and spent the difference on some fun cars.
  
 I have a feeling you're not as familiar with Linn's offerings as you sound, though.  For a start, other than not playing DSD (which isn't a big loss for me given the tiny, and mostly irrelevant, catalog - what do you do if what you want to listen is not available as DSD?  Converting PCM to DSD won't get you more resolution or detail ...), you're hardly limited to low-res music or Spotify or TIDAL.  Their "app" is just a control point and not even required ... the DSM units will, and are primarily designed to, pull high-resolution lossless files from a local server.  TIDAL functionality is a bonus.  They don't talk natively to Spotify or any other lossy service. 
  
 By design they are high-resolution DLNA/UPnP/OpenHome streamers and were the first products of their type at that level so you're badly misinformed on that level.
  
 And their speakers with the curtains ... that's the *low-end *of their Exakt line ... basically Majik Isobarik's with built in amps and crossovers.  I think they're pretty comical, and that's coming from someone that used to own the conventional wood-built non-Exakt version of those speakers.
  
 The best I've heard B&Ws 802.2 D was being driven by Linn's Exakt setup, oddly enough.  I've also heard them in an all Classe system ... in which the very expensive pre-amp showed itself to be really quite the noisy little bitch.  While Linn have many faults ... they make the best SMPS I've ever seen, heard or measured and their filter implementations are up there with Rob Watts and Mike Moffat.
  
 Not that this matters much for headphone audio.  I've posted in my "Life after Yggdrasil" that Yggdrasil, at $2299 beats even Linn's highest end unit (at about 10x the price) in terms of operation as a DAC ... but that's no reason to go making things up about how their gear actually works ... you may not like the way they sound but the bulk of your comment just illustrates you simply don't know how they work or what they do (and that makes me think you've probably never heard them, either).
  
 And I think DAVE beats Yggdrasil (but only just, and for 6 times the price) or anything that Linn offers - but it still sounds better driven off the output of a Linn streamer than it does fed natively.


----------



## JaZZ

jawed said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > jawed said:
> ...


 
  
 We've already been there. You can't take an obviously flawed recording as a guideline. For cases like this crossfeed can be disabled.
  
 To my ears DAVE's crossfeed is excellent – almost as good as my own.


----------



## Jawed

torofiestasol said:


> So, are you saying that, for example, Flemming E. Rasmussen, founder of Gryphon (one of the most respected audio companies in high end audio) doesn't know how to design a DAC?
> Look, it has two oversized power supplies, dual mono layuout, super expensive components and a custom, very, very high quality PCB...



Does this DAC use an off the shelf chip? If so, then that is, quite literally, an irrelevant comparison. DAC chips are broken for high end audio. Nothing you do with a broken chip at the centre of your design will get you to state of the art audio.


----------



## Mojo ideas

torofiestasol said:


> So, are you saying that, for example, Flemming E. Rasmussen, founder of Gryphon (one of the most respected audio companies in high end audio) doesn't know how to design a DAC?
> Look, it has two oversized power supplies, dual mono layuout, super expensive components and a custom, very, very high quality PCB...


 Are you wanting me to denigrate another designers product! I simply won't do that. I don't want to talk about any unit or designer in particular. They have their ideas good luck to them we wish all of them the very best. I only state why we do what we do. And we are happy for any of our designs to be explored and tested in the extreme. As a totally independant view Jude M himself tested Dave and he has suitable ultra high grade test gear to truly show the levels of performance that Dave has achieved please check his videos to verify


----------



## EVOLVIST

torofiestasol said:


> So, are you saying that, for example, Flemming E. Rasmussen, founder of Gryphon (one of the most respected audio companies in high end audio) doesn't know how to design a DAC?
> Look, it has two oversized power supplies, dual mono layuout, super expensive components and a custom, very, very high quality PCB...




Yeah, but does Metallica sound good through it?


----------



## Torq

evolvist said:


> Yeah, but does Metallica sound good through it?


 

 Does Metallica sound good through anything?!
  
 (I kid ... I kid ... I just couldn't resist!)


----------



## miketlse

jawed said:


> Does this DAC use an off the shelf chip? If so, then that is, quite literally, an irrelevant comparison. DAC chips are broken for high end audio. Nothing you do with a broken chip at the centre of your design will get you to state of the art audio.


 
  
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0814/gryphon_audio_designs_kalliope_dac.htm
  
 "a dedicated ESS SABRE ES9018 32-bit D/A converter per channel, these chips incorporate eight individual D/A converters in Dual-Differential coupling"


----------



## jude

torofiestasol said:


> I'm not saying that the Gryphon DAC is a better product overall, what I'm trying to express is:
> 
> If Dave has a rock solid FPGA development inside, which is very impressive, why the fkn PSU is a clusterfuk?
> Why it has that headphone amp, for 520 usd you can buy this:
> ...


 
  
 What constitutes an impressive power supply to you? What about its power supply bothers you? If, as you say, _"the fkn PSU is a clusterfuk," _explain how you've come to that conclusion?
  
 We have a Chord DAVE here, and it is the best DAC/amp we've yet heard, and the best measuring DAC we've yet put on the audio analyzer. For example, in terms of THD, at 0dBFS, from its unbalanced outs outs, 1kHz sine, we measured the DAVE's THD at 0.000032% (left) and 0.000026% (right). The fundamental (1kHz) measured a tick over 3 volts (3.088 volts); and in terms of distortion product levels, measurements from the 2nd to the 10th harmonic were all measured in _nanovolts, _starting at around 500 nanovolts for the 2nd harmonic (averaged between channels), and then down from there. From DAVE's balanced outputs, measurements were similarly fantastic, with the fundamental at just over 6 volts (6.18 volts), and, again, distortion product levels measured in nanovolts, from 2nd to 10th (with THD ratio at 0.000025% for left, and 0.000023% for right).
  
 We have never seen measurements like this here, and we've measured quite a few DACs to date. 
  
 (We measured DAVE with an *Audio Precision APx555* audio analyzer. We'll be posting more complete measurements of DAVE and other DACs soon, and ongoing.)
  
 DAVE's overall measured performance is stellar. Most importantly, it's a fantastic thing to listen to your music from. I'm not sure how many of the impressions you've read of DAVE in here, but it's an incredible DAC and DAC/amp combination. Incredible.


----------



## romaz

torq said:


> Power-supply design is one area.  I'm all for SMPS implementations, done properly.  Go look at what Linn do with their Dynamik PSU.  Up to 1.14 Kw on demand with better measurements than many battery-driven linear models.  Makes me wonder what might be possible with a "dual-mono" implementation of DAVE with those kinds of PSUs and none of DAVEs, audible, display nonsense.


 
 You make it sound like Rob didn't think these things out. I believe Rob has already addressed his rationale for his power supply choice in previous posts.  If you take the time to read his posts, you'll be surprised at how much you'll learn.  How many DAC designers to you know that are so forthcoming with information?  
  
 The medical grade switching power supply used in the DAVE is of high standard but what is key is that this power supply feeds the DAVE exactly what it needs.  1.14 kw of transient power delivery (about 9.5A at 120V) is fine if that is what your component needs, otherwise, it's a meaningless spec.  What is often more important is the output impedance of the power supply which impacts how quickly the component can receive the current that it needs during dynamic bursts and so it's often more desirable to have a power supply with agility than one that can provide brute force when it comes to digital equipment.  Some battery supplies comprised of small batteries, for example, often have higher impedance and so even though you benefit from not having the supply connected to ground, the sound you get can be thick and full bodied but at the expense of speed and resolution which is not ideal for a DAC and so there is so much more to consider than just peak power delivery or switching vs linear topology.  
  
 What may be equally important as the capabilities of the power supply is the component's PSRR or power supply rejection ratio.  Reading through Rob's posts, he had indicated that he was able to isolate his DACs well enough from any deletrious effects of the power supply that when he compared the power supply he was using against a large 12 volt sealed lead acid car battery which he considers to be the ultimate power supply, he was unable to tell the difference.  If this has indeed been achieved, why would anyone feel he should do more?  The beauty of the compact supply that is used in the DAVE is that it allows for a one box solution that is almost portable.  
  
 I haven't heard the Linn or Gryphon DACs but what did their overbuilt power supplies, super expensive components and custom quality PCB achieve in the end?  Did they result in an ultra low noise floor with no noise floor modulation?  Did they achieve small signal linearity?  Do they facilitate noise shaper performance down to -350 dB so that you can accurately perceive the depth in a recording?  Given that there is probably not another DAC with DAVE's transparent capabilities, it's hard to argue against Rob's design choices.


----------



## Sunya

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/152143111-audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy


----------



## Torq

romaz said:


> You make it sound like Rob didn't think these things out. I believe Rob has already addressed his rationale for his power supply choice in previous posts.  If you take the time to read his posts, you'll be surprised at how much you'll learn.  How many DAC designers to you know that are so forthcoming with information?
> 
> The medical grade switching power supply used in the DAVE is of high standard but what is key is that this power supply feeds the DAVE exactly what it needs.  1.14 kw of transient power delivery (about 9.5A at 120V) is fine if that is what your component needs, otherwise, it's a meaningless spec.  What is often more important is the output impedance of the power supply which impacts how quickly the component can receive the current that it needs during dynamic bursts and so it's often more desirable to have a power supply with agility than one that can provide brute force when it comes to digital equipment.  Some battery supplies comprised of small batteries, for example, often have higher impedance and so even though you benefit from not having the supply connected to ground, the sound you get can be thick and full bodied but at the expense of speed and resolution which is not ideal for a DAC and so there is so much more to consider than just peak power delivery or switching vs linear topology.
> 
> ...


 

 Well, that's not my intent.
  
 I'm sufficiently impressed with DAVE that it makes me wonder what else he could pull off with changes in other areas.  Maybe there aren't any.  It's just idle, interested, speculation on my part.  As an engineer myself, though not working in audio, it's all interesting stuff.
  
 And it's not that I'm questioning his design choices, well not in most cases, again ... I'm just wondering where things might go.  Things tend to move forward,  especially where technology is involved and I very much doubt that DAVE is the very last word on audio reproduction.  It MIGHT be today ... but I doubt that'll hold true forever.
  
 Now, things like audible noise when DAVEs display is active do bother me though - as an engineer at least.  Not really a factor once I'm actually listening to music, but it feels a bit sloppy to me.
  
 The Linn power-supply is hardly "over-built".  It's used in their low-power components as well as their 4x 200 watt amplifiers.  No, their DSM units don't need those kind of reserves but the power amps do and they have class-leading transient response _and linearity_ (the patents on the technology are freely available to read ... really quite clever).  And their pre-amps are the quietest I've ever heard or measured.  Significantly bettering much more expensive, "exotic" units.  So they're definitely getting something out of that work.


----------



## x RELIC x

I find it funny that some people actually have the perspective that a device that is over-engineered to overcome the inherent flaws in off the shelf chips could better a measurably, and audibly, very successful ground up design, from the WTA filter programmed in to the FPGA, to the discrete Pulse Array DAC, to the very unique, simple, and extremely transparent analogue output stage (headphone out and line out are essentially the same in DAVE - no other designer can do this with their DAC). No other designer is doing this level of innovation, with this kind of success. No other designer actually looks at the root problem and creates/invents their own solution. Taking a third party DAC chip and burying it's flaws behind over engineering is the exact opposite of transparency and quality IMO (not to mention value). 

Those Gryphon DACs are just using tired ES9018 chips. Let's see them actually invent some technology and DAC chips that measure close to the DAVE, then we can compare. I have no idea if the Gryphon DACs sound any good at the ear. All I'm pointing out is that over-engineering is not the same as innovating, and Rob's DACs have the measurements and reviews to back up his success.


----------



## Torq

x relic x said:


> I find it funny that people actually have the perspective that a device that is over-engineered to overcome the inherent flaws in off the shelf chips could better a measurably, and audibly, very successful ground up design, from the WTA filter programmed in to the FPGA, to the discrete Pulse Array DAC, to the very unique, simple, and extremely transparent analogue output stage (headphone out and line out are essentially the same in DAVE - no other designer can do this with their DAC). No other designer is doing this level of innovation, with this kind of success. No other designer actually looks at the root problem and creates/invents their own solution. Taking a third party DAC chip and burying it's flaws behind over engineering is the exact opposite of transparency and quality IMO (not to mention value).
> 
> Those Gryphon DACs are just using tired ES9018 chips. Let's see them actually invent some technology and DAC chips that measure close to the DAVE, then we can compare. I have no idea if the Gryphon DACs sound any good at the ear. All I'm pointing out is that over-engineering is not the same as innovating, and Rob's DACs have the measurements and reviews to back up his success.


 

 While it might well be an unhealthy combination of both expectation and engineering bias on my part, the best sounding DACs I've had through my hands during my major auditioning cycle have all done something beyond just using off the shelf chips.
  
 There's standout-ground-up designs like DAVE which are clearly showing the benefits of this approach.
  
 The very impressive PS Audio gear which is an all-FPGA implementation but of a very different nature to DAVE.
  
 There's less "aggressive" approaches, like that with Linn and Schiit ... where they're using an off-the-shelf chip and making it perform relative wonders by doing their own filtering via an FPGA or DSP.
  
 And the completely discrete stuff beyond that ...
  
 All of those have proven very interesting.
  
 DAVE still leads the pack though (and, sadly for me, I still dislike it aesthetically and ergonomically ... but oh ... the sound ...).  Both hard to resist and hard to talk myself into at the same time.


----------



## miketlse

torq said:


> I'm sufficiently impressed with DAVE that it makes me wonder what else he could pull off with changes in other areas.  Maybe there aren't any.  It's just idle, interested, speculation on my part.  As an engineer myself, though not working in audio, it's all interesting stuff.
> 
> And it's not that I'm questioning his design choices, well not in most cases, again ... I'm just wondering where things might go.  Things tend to move forward,  especially where technology is involved and I very much doubt that DAVE is the very last word on audio reproduction.  It MIGHT be today ... but I doubt that'll hold true forever.
> 
> Now, things like audible noise when DAVEs display is active do bother me though - as an engineer at least.  Not really a factor once I'm actually listening to music, but it feels a bit sloppy to me.


 
  
 I think many engineers will recognise those times when the mind wanders onto exploring 'what ifs' - often they lead up blind creeks, but other times they are the start point for technical improvements to products.


----------



## pkcpga

torq said:


> Well, that's not my intent.
> 
> I'm sufficiently impressed with DAVE that it makes me wonder what else he could pull off with changes in other areas.  Maybe there aren't any.  It's just idle, interested, speculation on my part.  As an engineer myself, though not working in audio, it's all interesting stuff.
> 
> ...




Not sure how relivent that is than, since the Linn's DAC is very mediocre sounding and most units at half its cost sound similar. No DSD support, no true high res support. Haven't updated for anything but tidal and Spotify play. Linn preamps are equally as unispiring sounding, they do make good amps and speakers. I would much rather have the naim DAC for a little less money or a meridian DAC for home audio which sounds better and supports DSD, dxd and mqa.


----------



## romaz

torofiestasol said:


> So, are you saying that, for example, Flemming E. Rasmussen, founder of Gryphon (one of the most respected audio companies in high end audio) doesn't know how to design a DAC?
> Look, it has two oversized power supplies, dual mono layuout, super expensive components and a custom, very, very high quality PCB...


 
 This is an interesting way to look at audio and I suspect it is how many audiophiles buy equipment, based on the perceived quality of the ingredients rather than the actual quality of the output.  I hesitate to even call these people true audiophiles because they are more into their gear than the music.
  
 My late father-in-law, in his prime was a scratch golfer.  Even in his 60s, he played with a +5 handicap.  He often would show up to the golf course and join a group.  Routinely, they would play for money (small change) just to make it interesting.  Because he wasn't a wealthy man, he was not dressed in the best clothes.  He also owned an old set of clubs.  Because of his appearance and his equipment, the people he played with would often dismiss him as easy money and yet with their fancy attire and their custom clubs, my father-in-law would routinely run away with their money.  In the end, it's not about a fancy chassis with oversized transformers and super expensive components that matters, it's about performance.  It's about the ability to transport the listener to a happier time and place.  If the Gryphon DAC does this for you, you should buy it.  But to talk about the "very, very high quality PCB" that it uses is irrelevant.


----------



## x RELIC x

torq said:


> While it might well be an unhealthy combination of both expectation and engineering bias on my part, the best sounding DACs I've had through my hands during my major auditioning cycle have all done something beyond just using off the shelf chips.
> 
> There's standout-ground-up designs like DAVE which are clearly showing the benefits of this approach.
> 
> ...




While I respect what Schiit and PS Audio are doing my point was specific to off the shelf audio DAC chips in comparison to the DAVE and its price bracket. Off the shelf chips have their place, and IMO that's in the budget realm (let's say less than $1000). That's where you'll see quality for value from them. I see no other reason to spend a whack of cash on noisy chips that require a stupid amount of over engineering (expense) to compensate. But hey, again, that's my perspective.


----------



## Torq

pkcpga said:


> Not sure how relivent that is than, since the Linn's DAC is very mediocre sounding and most units at half its cost sound similar. No DSD support, no true high res support. Haven't updated for anything but tidal and Spotify play. Linn preamps are equally as unispiring sounding, they do make good amps and speakers. I would much rather have the naim DAC for a little less money or a meridian DAC for home audio which sounds better and supports DSD, dxd and mqa.


 

 Linn's pre-amps pretty much have NO sound ... and they're about as transparent and quiet as anyone has built.
  
 How on earth is 24 bit/192 KHz not "true high res support"?  They've supported that since day one even on their entry level streamers.
  
 Or are you in the "DSD is the only high-res-format" camp?
  
 I'll worry about MQA when there's any content at all for it.
  
 DSD and DXD don't fare much better there.  What's the point in worrying about support for a format that I cannot buy the music I want in?  Call me when it matters ... almost none of my favorite albums are available in this format ... and those that aren't even native DSD.
  
 I run a Linn speaker rig because it fits the house.  And I get both speaker and room correction into the bargain.  Anymore my serious listening is via headphones.  If I wanted statement-level speaker gear I'd be with B&W or Wilson.  I've been down the Meridian path before, to the tune of about a quarter million US and it's great gear.  I like the results of the cheaper, more house-friendly Linn stuff better.
  
 I really don't know where your getting your information on the Linn stuff ... you keep making claims that aren't based in reality.  Not liking them is fine ... I don't think they're the last word and I own their stuff ... but doing it on the basis of faulty information is a bit daft.


----------



## Mojo ideas

As an Engineer then you might care to note that Rob has chosen to not use an addition processor within the design for fear of generating extraneous noise. chosing instead to drive the display directly from the FPGA utilising the Dacs clocking itself. This is a far better and more elegant solution save for the months of dedicated programming in which every character or colour had to be constructed pixel by pixel. Some times the easiest option is not the best and its Rob's obsessive dedication and bloody hard work that has moved the state of the art substantially beyond the known boundaries. Boundries that definitely would not have been moved by designers using known topologies with known chips using known techniques even if they use the most exotic materials and hugely over specified power supplies.


----------



## Torq

mojo ideas said:


> As an Engineer then you might care to note that Rob has chosen to not use an addition processor within the design for fear of generating extraneous noise. chosing instead to drive the display directly from the FPGA utilising the Dacs clocking itself. This is a far better and more elegant solution save for the months of dedicated programming in which every character or colour had to be constructed pixel by pixel. Some times the easiest option is not the best and its Rob's obsessive dedication and bloody hard work that has moved the state of the art substantially beyond the known boundaries. Boundries that definitely would not have been moved by designers using known topologies with known chips using known techniques even if they use the most exotic materials and hugely over specified power supplies.


 

 I think you're being a bit too defensive here.
  
 The results speak for themselves and *I've said multiple times* that I think DAVE is the best sounding digital audio I've ever heard.
  
 That doesn't change the fact that, aesthetically, and ergonomically, there are things I don't like about it.  That's fine.  You're not going to convince me that the look of the thing, or it's interface is great no matter how much you talk about all the considerations that went into it.  It's opinion ... that's all.  I have immense respect for Rob as an engineer and for what he's accomplished.  I don't work in audio ... my last design goes around the earth over and over at very high speeds ... and has a very different set of necessary criteria and engineering needs.  Some of the issues intersect ... some don't.  It raises questions ... that's all.
  
 Since you're here ... how do I get someone at your company to respond to support issues?  Your dealer network, at least in the PNW and when I was over in the UK recently doesn't seem to be able to handle it and the contacts I had with Edd (I know he's in marketing) and, I think it was Chris, were not helpful.


----------



## Torq

Sod it.
  
 I'm going to bow out of this thread.
  
 We'll see where DAVE winds up when I'm done with my auditioning.  If idle speculation at what _might_ be achievable in the _future_ is just going to go this way, I don't need to be a part of it.  And if Chord's perspective is that DAVE can never be improved on, and everything possible has been considered and addressed (which is how the responses read any time anyone throws up a question or an observation), then there's not much more to pay attention to.
  
 Kudos to Rob on an amazing achievement ... both with DAVE and Mojo ... but I'm out.


----------



## Rob Watts

torq said:


> Now, things like audible noise when DAVEs display is active do bother me though - as an engineer at least.


 
  
 Err what audible noise when the display is active? News to me...
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> It could potentially be end game...if Rob decided to retire.




Yes that is a very good question! 

What will happen to Chord Electronics the day Rob decide to retire?? 

Its not that easy to hire a new Rob Jr that can replace him / you Rob. 

Wounder if they got a good plan for this. 

Then about DAVE's performance potential i think we havent even heard 60% of its full potential yet, because we do not have so good recordnings to feed it, even if it say MQA , DSD 512 or PCM 768 on the lable. 

I think in a couple of years we can get full benefit of DAVEś capabillity. 

Like a 8k HDR OLED TV, we do not got any content to provide for it, so the picture looks very similar to a ordinary 1080p TV if your source is just 576i ( Red Book CD) content. 

Just wait and see what DAVINA can bring us


----------



## romaz

torq said:


> Linn's pre-amps pretty much have NO sound ... and they're about as transparent and quiet as anyone has built.
> 
> How on earth is 24 bit/192 KHz not "true high res support"?  They've supported that since day one even on their entry level streamers.
> 
> ...


 
 Not true.  Everything has a sound and nothing is completely transparent, not even the DAVE and so the less components you have in your analog chain, the better if transparency is your goal.  As Rob has indicated, even the solder used contributes to the sound you hear.  For the DAVE, the most transparent preamp is no additional preamp, Linn or otherwise.
  
 Aside from component switching and adding tone, why would anyone want to add a preamp to something like the DAVE?  Certainly not for impedance matching since the DAVE will have a lower impedance than any preamp.  It wouldn't be for gain because the DAVE has plenty.  Attenuation?  The DAVE will do it better.  Because of its noise shaper, it can attenuate to -76 dB with no loss of resolution.  
  
 As for DSD and DXD, it's fine if you don't buy into it but what's wrong with having it?  If you've followed Rob's posts, then you know he is not a fan of DSD either.  If he had his way, he probably wouldn't bother with it but yet he decided to include this capability so that the DAVE can play anything and everything.  Given all of DSD's issues, the DAVE plays it beautifully.  
  
 Even though your preferred music today comes in 16/44 format, what about the future?  More and more labels are using DXD and DSD recorders.  They can be transcoded to 16/44 but do they sound better that way?  I have found that tracks recorded with DSD recorders sound better in their native format on the DAVE even though the DAVE was designed to excel in PCM.  Likewise, native DXD recordings with the DAVE sound best in their native format, meaning that 24/352.8 sounds better than 16/44. Is it a huge difference?  Not necessarily but there is a definite improvement.  Our recordings today are often limited by the ADC and it is why MQA has come up with its band-aid solution.  This will change when DAVINA comes to market and then we could very well have recordings that live up to the original high expectations of the high res format.


----------



## paulchiu

rob watts said:


> Err what audible noise when the display is active? News to me...
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Rob,
  
 Indeed, the DAVE display does not cause audible noise.
  
 I think what he refers to is when DAVE is in Display mode 4.  If you get a dropout playing DSD256 or something, the display lights back up in this mode.
 The dropout or pop triggers the display to come on.  The display is not causing the noise.
  
 paul


----------



## Torq

rob watts said:


> Err what audible noise when the display is active? News to me...
> 
> Rob


 

 When I had it in my speaker system I could hear a high-pitched whine from my listening position when the display was active.
  
 I got the same thing with the Hugo TT.
  
 Not loud enough to hear when wearing headphones.
  
 And to be clear ... it came _from the unit_, *not* via it's outputs.
  
 No idea if it's related ... in the case of the Hugo TT you talked about it here.


----------



## Sonic77

Retire? He's just getting started


----------



## Torq

romaz said:


> Not true.  Everything has a sound and nothing is completely transparent, not even the DAVE and so the less components you have in your analog chain, the better if transparency is your goal.  As Rob has indicated, even the solder used contributes to the sound you hear.  For the DAVE, the most transparent preamp is no additional preamp, Linn or otherwise.


 
  
 I said "pretty much", which is a qualifier not an absolute.
  
 DAVE can't drive interesting speakers, nor can it act as a phone stage, and in a multi-source system a pre-amp is required - otherwise we're switching cables to change sources.
  
 So while a pre-amp might be undesirable, that doesn't mean it isn't necessary.
  
 Irrelevant if you're only using headphones ... I'm not.


----------



## Torq

And now I really am out.
  
 PM me if you expect a response.


----------



## Mojo ideas

torq said:


> Well, that's not my intent.
> 
> I'm sufficiently impressed with DAVE that it makes me wonder what else he could pull off with changes in other areas.  Maybe there aren't any.  It's just idle, interested, speculation on my part.  As an engineer myself, though not working in audio, it's all interesting stuff.
> 
> ...







torq said:


> I think you're being a bit too defensive here.
> 
> The results speak for themselves and *I've said multiple times* that I think DAVE is the best sounding digital audio I've ever heard.
> 
> ...


 Really concerning support issues you first point of contact should be your dealer although they may be new to Chord as the PNW has not been a area that we have had incredibly long dealer relationships and if they are not helpful then the distributor which is Bluebird based in Toronto. However if you feel you have not received the support you required even from Edd at Chord who is indeed our Media manager. you of course may ask to speak with myself of Matt our director of Manufacturing or better still write, as we are usually busy and we will be happy to reply.


----------



## Crgreen

But how many of those will there be? Even if DAVINA is a huge success and used by all recording studios, am I right in thinking that it can be used for digitising analogue recordings and making new digital recording, but what about everything in between - existing digital recordings? Might it not be some years before the benefits of the A/D conversion can be heard on a significant number of recordings? Nice, but I might well be dead by then!


----------



## x RELIC x

beolab said:


> Yes that is a very good question!
> 
> What will happen to Chord Electronics the day Rob decide to retire??
> 
> ...




Well, I had the opportunity to test the first HDRI TV in 2002, which used an array of dimmable LEDs in a very tight/dense configuration (unlike the crap they have now). The unit would get face melting hot and was about 3 feet thick, but the native contrast on this prototype was STUNNING compared to every other display I've seen until OLED was released. Even with the 864x486 content we were producing back then it was glorious. The blacks were completely black because the back light shut off completely behind that pixel. The whites were incredibly brilliant because of the intensity of the LEDs they chose. So, as you may guess it isn't always the resolution but the fundamental portrayal of the content that can make the most impact. Somewhat like the DAVE with audio, from 16/44.1 to DXD.


----------



## romaz

torq said:


> Sod it.
> 
> I'm going to bow out of this thread.
> 
> ...


 
 Come back any time. Debate is good as long as it is respectful.  Often times, there isn't right or wrong, just personal preference but be prepared to be challenged if you make claims that others don't agree with.  
  
 As for the DAVE not being able to be improved upon, I'm not sure where that came from.  Nothing is perfect and I think we all expect better from Rob and from Chord as technology improves.  It's the anticipation of what tomorrow brings that excites many of us and why "end game" is not a realistic term.
  
 As for preamps being unnecessary, you're right, sometimes they are and my post included component switching and adding tone as two good reasons.  In fact, I think the preamp is a more suitable tone control device than the DAC.
  
 The next time I make it up to Seattle, I'll give you a ping.  Maybe we invite @shuttlepod along and catch a live event.


----------



## Mojo ideas

beolab said:


> Yes that is a very good question!
> 
> What will happen to Chord Electronics the day Rob decide to retire??
> 
> ...


 We plan to map Robs brain and up load him into a new Dac designing program


----------



## bigfatpaulie

It might just end up like Ferrari after Sergio Pininfarina.
  
 It could be much worse


----------



## JaZZ

romaz said:


> As for preamps being unnecessary, you're right, sometimes they are and my post included component switching and adding tone as two good reasons.  In fact, I think *the preamp is a more suitable tone control device than the DAC.*


 
  
 Analogue EQ? *No way!* – I do my equalizing before the DAC (in the X5 II or in foobar).
  
  


mojo ideas said:


> We plan to map Rob's brain and upload him into a new Dac designing program


 
  
 Make sure to have a large enough memory at your disposal!


----------



## romaz

jazz said:


> Analogue EQ? *No way!* – I do my equalizing before the DAC (in the X5 II or in foobar).


 
 I'm talking about tubes.  Equalizing before the DAC works, too.


----------



## Jawed

torq said:


> If idle speculation at what _might_ be achievable in the _future_ is just going to go this way, I don't need to be a part of it.  And if Chord's perspective is that DAVE can never be improved on, and everything possible has been considered and addressed (which is how the responses read any time anyone throws up a question or an observation), then there's not much more to pay attention to.



Rob's said himself that to obtain 16-bit resolution in filtering requires about a million taps. The problem is how to code that. 164,000 taps was difficult, apparently.

How many of the biggest FPGAs are required to get to a million taps? Maybe in 7 years' time it'll be possible with a single FPGA? About the time that DAVE is due to be replaced, in the same way as DAVE replaced QBD76 (which dates from 2009)?


----------



## Beolab

x relic x said:


> Well, I had the opportunity to test the first HDRI TV in 2002, which used an array of dimmable LEDs in a very tight/dense configuration (unlike the crap they have now). The unit would get face melting hot and was about 3 feet thick, but the native contrast on this prototype was STUNNING compared to every other display I've seen until OLED was released. Even with the 864x486 content we were producing back then it was glorious. The blacks were completely black because the back light shut off completely behind that pixel. The whites were incredibly brilliant because of the intensity of the LEDs they chose. So, as you may guess it isn't always the resolution but the fundamental portrayal of the content that can make the most impact. Somewhat like the DAVE with audio, from 16/44.1 to DXD.




Yes, that was what i meant if you read again, it is not about the resolution of the tracks, its all about the raw studio A/D recording quality, and i think DAVE got more potential to reveal the full potential with great recordings nevertheless what resolution they got. But i think i can only count like 20-30 really good recordings, that are almost flawless, of all 100.000+ of tracks i have heard, so DAVE are a litte before its time in my opinion, because it is so transparent and revealing so you hear all flaws in the recording production from the studio / concert hall, i need better recordings for sure, to be fully delighted. 

Yes the TV you are discussing where a Canadian brand named BrightView and Dolby Labs bought them up just to get benefit of their HDR technology just 4 years later.


----------



## Jawed

To be fair, work on DAVINA (ADC) might lead Rob in a new direction. Hugo lead him in a new direction...


----------



## x RELIC x

beolab said:


> Yes, that was what i meant if you read again, it is not about the resolution of the tracks, its all about the raw studio A/D recording quality, and i think DAVE got more potential to reveal the full potential with great recordings nevertheless what resolution they got. But i think i can only count like 20-30 really good recordings, that are almost flawless, of all 100.000+ of tracks i have heard, so DAVE are a litte before its time in my opinion, because it is so transparent and revealing so you hear all flaws in the recording production from the studio / concert hall, i need better recordings for sure, to be fully delighted.
> 
> Yes the TV you are discussing where a Canadian brand named BrightView and Dolby Labs bought them up just to get benefit of their HDR technology just 4 years later.




Yup, you know about the tech. 

And yes, I got your point precisely initially.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

I have an honest question...  Let's say there is a better DAC than DAVE released in the future.
  
 Would it matter?  
  
 Would it make DAVE any less special?  Would DAVE start sounding crappy?  I realize there is progress and such but when take old analog reel to reel recordings or a really good vinyl system, honestly, have we improved?  I feel, personally, as far as sound quality goes, no, we have not.
  
 We have comes leaps about bounds in the ergonomics department, however.  That stuff was a real pain to use and DAVE is oh so easy.
  
 Older DAC's had room for improvement, yes.  But here we are where a digital front end can go toe to toe with the best analog (I feel).


----------



## pkcpga

torq said:


> Linn's pre-amps pretty much have NO sound ... and they're about as transparent and quiet as anyone has built.
> 
> How on earth is 24 bit/192 KHz not "true high res support"?  They've supported that since day one even on their entry level streamers.
> 
> ...




Ok so my Dave DAC creates no audible niose when on attached to my naim preamp, with each speaker dual single amped to create true biamping to b and w nautilus speakers. I understand the Linn may work well with Linn speakers but from demoing the Linn equipment with my office set up Kef ls50's I was not impressed granted those speakers pick up any niose and are known to be picky to partner. Either way the new Linn sound was unimpressive. I have older Linn eqiupment I like but anything in the past three years I've been unimpressed. Linn sound has become thin and lacked the detail they used to be known for and their app is terrible even compared to blue sounds and much worse than naims. Linn only accepts a few formats and up to cd quality in its bank if you want to use Linn's app remote. It's app is confusing and freezes all the time along with your music so I've been unimpressed by their recent stuff.


----------



## Mython

jawed said:


> To be fair, work on DAVINA (ADC) might lead Rob in a new direction. Hugo lead him in a new direction...


 
  
  
 Yes.
  
 We understand you perfectly.
  
 You are saying that Rob is easily-led.


----------



## Torq

pkcpga said:


> Ok so my Dave DAC creates no audible niose when on attached to my naim preamp, with each speaker dual single amped to create true biamping to b and w nautilus speakers. I understand the Linn may work well with Linn speakers but from demoing the Linn equipment with my office set up Kef ls50's I was not impressed granted those speakers pick up any niose and are known to be picky to partner. Either way the new Linn sound was unimpressive. I have older Linn eqiupment I like but anything in the past three years I've been unimpressed. Linn sound has become thin and lacked the detail they used to be known for and their app is terrible even compared to blue sounds and much worse than naims. Linn only accepts a few formats and up to cd quality in its bank if you want to use Linn's app remote. It's app is confusing and freezes all the time along with your music so I've been unimpressed by their recent stuff.


 

 You seem to have a knack for getting the facts wrong, or greatly exaggerating things ... like this.
  
 You don't have to like Linn's gear.  But whatever equipment it is you're making claims about it is *not accurate* with regards to the DS and DSM lines, which is what I'm referring to.  Those came out in *2007* and have supported high-resolution audio since day one.
  
 Linn Records were among the first to even _offer_ high resolution downloads ... something they did because it was a major selling point for their players.
  
 There is no "Linn bank" - no idea what you're referring to there.  I can only think you're referring to their Kivor product, which is 15 years old, hasn't been sold for at least a decade and isn't relevant to the discussion.
  
 You feed the DS players using DLNA/UPnP based servers and there are plenty to choose from.   and it'll play pretty much anything useful except for DSD and DXD.  Linn's control point app isn't that very good ... but it certainly doesn't put any limits on what formats you can play ... and any DLNA/UPnP control point will work with it (lots of people use the one Lumin offer).
  
 Right from their main product page it lists the following supported formats:
  

FLAC
ALAC
WAV
MP3
WMA (except lossless)
AIFF
AAC
OGG
  
 Other than DSD and DXD I'm not seeing anything missing there that matters.
  
 And right below that it states it plays 24-bit 192 KHz files, which they have done since launch.
  
 What product are you referring to?
  
 Anyway, this is off topic and I only responded because you quoted me and I got notified of it - fixed that now.
  
 Bye and have fun!


----------



## EVOLVIST

bigfatpaulie said:


> I have an honest question...  Let's say there is a better DAC than DAVE released in the future.
> 
> Would it matter?
> 
> ...




This! And how much can the human ear actually hear? Is there a such animal as "better than analog?" After all, as you've mentioned, often our point of reference for analog is stuff that was recorded 40 to 60 years+ ago.

I remember Neil Young saying something along the lines of, "The music is in the hiss," refering to take hiss that's intrinsic in the original recordings, and not the hiss from multiple generation tape.

One of the many things I listen to in a recording...well, okay, back to the TV analogy, what is one of the most difficult things for a hi-rez TV to resolve? Swirling mist, fog, moving nebulous type object. So, take Simon & Garfunkle's Bookends album. The gold disc is basically a flat transfer of the audio. It has quite a bit of tape hiss from the original master. On many DACs, there is this slight swirling effect when rrying to resolve hiss...much like the TV.

I think one of the marks of a good DAC is the ability to resolve hiss to where it sounds natural, without giving off a digital glare, even though that flare might not be in the music, itself (or at least not perceived by the bounds of our hearing).


----------



## x RELIC x

I'm actually hoping the Davina ADC will take care of the hiss. Recording hiss isn't a natural phenomenon and will never sound natural.

Once Rob's brain is downloaded in to a DAC making machine then the next step is to bypass DACs, amps, and transducers entirely and plug directly in to the neo-cortex. No hiss, no sibilance, no glare, no RF noise. Just audio interpreted by our brains... even in a vacuum. 

:tongue_smile:


----------



## EVOLVIST

Well, hiss is a natural phenomenon for tape, though tape is wholly unnatural when compared to our environment. At least that's what I think that you're saying. 

But tape hiss IS nostalgia! I have no problem with it in my ears if the recording and/or the songs support that magic which only comes from 2" tape.


----------



## pkcpga

torq said:


> You seem to have a knack for getting the facts wrong, or greatly exaggerating things ... like this.
> 
> You don't have to like Linn's gear.  But whatever equipment it is you're making claims about it is *not accurate* with regards to the DS and DSM lines, which is what I'm referring to.  Those came out in *2007* and have supported high-resolution audio since day one.
> 
> ...




I have the Linn klimax, currently not in use since I can not keep a great connection with its app on my iPhone or iPad. If it works for you great, also hate that there is only one digital input and no choice but Ethernet. So I don't consider it extremely well designed from a customer stand point but I'm no engineer. As for the formats and 24/192 so does every NAD intergrated DAC/preamp/amp for over $799 and every rotel for over $899, so that's no great feat. Although the new NAD being introduced in the fall will play meridians new format as well as bluesound playing it and naim already releasing an update so I guess even $799 piece will have one up on formats played. I simply was stating as a customer who owns Linn from 3 years ago I don't find it very good compared to other stuff I recently bought.


----------



## Mython

evolvist said:


> Well, hiss is a natural phenomenon for tape, though tape is wholly unnatural when compared to our environment. At least that's what I think that you're saying.
> 
> But take hiss IS nostalgia! I have no problem with it in my ears of the recording and/or the songs support that magic which only comes from 2" tape.


 
  
  
 LOL - nevermind the hiss - what about the magnetic 'bleed-through' of the signal, from one tape layer to the next, on the spool, creating a pre-emptive quiet 'echo' on some recordings?
  
 Here is an example - and this is actually a very nicely-recorded album, in other respects:
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwf844beG5E


----------



## romaz

bigfatpaulie said:


> I have an honest question...  Let's say there is a better DAC than DAVE released in the future.
> 
> Would it matter?
> 
> ...


 
 I think it could matter although it wouldn't take away from what the DAVE is now.  
  
 Rob has already spelled out some of the criteria necessary to create a perfectly transparent DAC (or at least perfect enough). He said that to achieve near-perfect transparency where the ear can no longer discern between the DAC's recreated analog signal from the _original _analog signal (pre-ADC), the ideal interpolation filter would require about 1,000,000 taps or an FPGA that has 100,000 DSP cores and currently, DAVE is at 164,000 taps and 166 DSP cores.  Whether this is reachable or not, Rob hasn't said but considering the Hugo has a 26,368 tap length filter with 16 DSP cores, that was a pretty nice jump that he achieved from Hugo to DAVE.  
  
 To put into perspective how phenomenal DAVE's figures are, here is what MSB has to say on their website currently with their latest DAC V series:
  

 MSB Digital Filters MSB has developed a series of digital filters that are optimized for the incredibly accurate DACs we make. We have 4 filters we have available in the DAC V and Analog DAC. The MSB filters are custom DSP based Digital filters. The sine x function is the ideal shape to apply to the audio filter task, but unfortunately to work perfectly it must sample an infinite number of samples. Our 16x filter contained 3200 taps, a very large sample and works well. The 32x Filter contains an amazing 6000 taps, and the increased size of the filter more closely approximates the ideal filter. Immediately you can hear the increased clarity of the music.


  
 That's right, their best 32x filter contains an _amazing _6,000 taps!
  
  
 http://www.msbtech.com/products/32xdf.php?Page=platinumHome


----------



## Torq

pkcpga said:


> I have the Linn klimax, currently not in use since I can not keep a great connection with its app on my iPhone or iPad. If it works for you great, also hate that there is only one digital input and no choice but Ethernet. So I don't consider it extremely well designed from a customer stand point but I'm no engineer. As for the formats and 24/192 so does every NAD intergrated DAC/preamp/amp for over $799 and every rotel for over $899, so that's no great feat. Although the new NAD being introduced in the fall will play meridians new format as well as bluesound playing it and naim already releasing an update so I guess even $799 piece will have one up on formats played. I simply was stating as a customer who owns Linn from 3 years ago I don't find it very good compared to other stuff I recently bought.


 

 Then you bought the wrong product - a near $20,000 mistake it would seem.  If you wanted inputs, the Klimax DSM would have been the unit to buy - it has a ton of them, digital and analog, including a first-rate phono stage.  So much less an issue with Linn's design choices - since they offer exactly what you're suggesting, and more an issue with your inability to select the right product..
  
 And yes, plenty of inexpensive units support 24/192 input, but you were claiming that the Linn _only_ supported CD quality, which is still *factually incorrect*. 
  
 To get _that much wrong_ about a purchase at that level, and then to just leave it sitting about because you can't make it work, stretches credulity way beyond breaking point.


----------



## pkcpga

torq said:


> Then you bought the wrong product - a near $20,000 mistake it would seem.  If you wanted inputs, the Klimax DSM would have been the unit to buy - it has a ton of them, digital and analog, including a first-rate phono stage.  So much less an issue with Linn's design choices - since they offer exactly what you're suggesting, and more an issue with your inability to select the right product..
> 
> And yes, plenty of inexpensive units support 24/192 input, but you were claiming that the Linn _only_ supported CD quality, which is still *factually incorrect*.
> 
> To get _that much wrong_ about a purchase at that level, and then to just leave it sitting about because you can't make it work, stretches credulity way beyond breaking point.



Yes it was a mistake, I trusted a dealer I no longer use. I went in demod some stuff than had it set up by a dealer. At that time I was still working and didn't have a lot of time to research or try out, I just wanted it perfectly set up when I got back. Now I'm more into trying and reading up on what I'm buying, since I retired a short time ago. I like my DSD music so it's a must for me.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

With all due respect, I don't think evaluating the Dave with headphones only, which I believe many people on this thread do, does any justice to Dave. In my experience, good source gear scales quite directly with the physical medium. You will hear the difference with other DACs much more on a speaker system than on headphones, and much more on a headphone than on IEMs. When I tried auditioning the Yggdrasil and Dave on the same set of speakers - the Dave simply wiped the floor with the Yggdrasil - and only in those settings you realise that they are not even in the same league.


----------



## EVOLVIST

louisarmstrong said:


> With all due respect, I don't think evaluating the Dave with headphones only, which I believe many people on this thread do, does any justice to Dave. In my experience, good source gear scales quite directly with the physical medium. You will hear the difference with other DACs much more on a speaker system than on headphones, and much more on a headphone than on IEMs. When I tried auditioning the Yggdrasil and Dave on the same set of speakers - the Dave simply wiped the floor with the Yggdrasil - and only in those settings you realise that they are not even in the same league.




So, if you don't dig speakers the DAVE is wasted on you?

Hell, I've been listening to headphone for most of my life. 1984,Sony Walkman, baby! It was on from there. The first time I heard Electric Ladyland, stoned out of my mind: cans. 

I've heard 200k speaker systems that wouldn't part me from my cans.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

evolvist said:


> So, if you don't dig speakers the DAVE is wasted on you?


 

 Make no mistake - it is probably still the best sounding DAC for headphones, without using a separate headphone amp. It is just that its full potential can only be heard on a properly set up speaker system.


----------



## STR-1

romaz said:


> If you're noticing changes in your SQ during the late hours when nothing else is running, you likely will benefit from some sort of mains conditioning.  I know of several including bigfatpaulie who have noticed an improvement in SQ with their DAVE and a PS Audio AC regenerator.  I also know of one person who felt his AC regenerator (a P10) robbed his speaker system which includes a DAVE of dynamics and didn't feel the tradeoff was worthwhile and so he moved away from it.  The one area where AC regenerators may be a necessity is if you have wildly fluctuating mains voltages since an AC regenerator will tightly regulate this.  It would be ideal if you could try before you buy.


 
 romaz, thanks for this.  I should be taking delivery of a loan PS Audio P3 today, so will soon learn what if any benefit it can bring to the Dave.  I've not tested my mains so do not know if it has wildly swinging voltages.  Yes, things do sound cleaner at night and that probably does have something to do with a cleaner more stable mains supply over the late/early hours.  But I think some of it is probably also due to being able to concentrate more on the music as things are quite, lights are subdued (sometimes even turned off altogether), I'm relaxed and the other senses have largely closed down.  Anyway, I'll give the P3 a good try out.
  
 The UK distributor of HFC cables has now returned from holiday and I will speak with him about either a demo or (better still) a loan of one of the cheaper mains cables.
  
 Thank you also for your comments on the DHC cables.  Can you confirm that the Silver Complement would add extra detail, transparency and dynamism compared to the HE1000 stock cable (SE), while not taking anything away from the bass?  I did look at your post mentioning those other cables but if they only get me half way between the HE1000 stock and the Complement, for the money I think I would prefer to go for the latter.  Thanks again


----------



## STR-1

bigfatpaulie said:


> Ah the P3...  Yes, thanks everyone for bringing my premature selling of it to the attention of all
> 
> I purchased the P3 originally for use with a tube amp.  I had an issue with a noise floor with it and the P3 quickly resolved the issue.  I live in a condo downtown and the AC in my building seems to fluctuate pretty heavily not to mention that there are literally hundreds of devices plugged in in the building all adding to line noise.  The P3 handled all this nicely.
> 
> ...


 

 bigfatpaulie, thanks for that.  I'm getting a loan P3 today, so will soon learn what it can do for my Dave.  cheers


----------



## rkt31

I also agree . while dave is the best headphone amp still any dac to shine to its full potential a good stereo speaker system is imho needed. I have few opus 3 records digital recordings which were transferred from tapes. I think the information contained on tape may be worth more than even dxd , may be due to the random nature of analog medium ( this hiss) which acts as some kind of natural dither to allow far more information to be recorded. also tape has natural roll off and saturation characteristics which make it sound pleasing. some of the opus 3 recordings are extremely natural and very transparent despite on tape. upcoming Davina will be useful in extracting last bit of information from these tapes. imho digital format is like a channel which always run full ( harsh clipping) tape is like a pipe which is not flowing full.


----------



## x RELIC x

rkt31 said:


> I also agree . while dave is the best headphone amp still any dac to shine to its full potential a good stereo speaker system is imho needed. I have few opus 3 records digital recordings which were transferred from tapes. I think the information contained on tape may be worth more than even dxd , *may be due to the random nature of analog medium ( this hiss) which acts as some kind of natural dither to allow far more information to be recorded*. also tape has natural roll off and saturation characteristics which make it sound pleasing. some of the opus 3 recordings are extremely natural and very transparent despite on tape. upcoming Davina will be useful in extracting last bit of information from these tapes. imho digital format is like a channel which always run full ( harsh clipping) tape is like a pipe which is not flowing full.




Tape sounds better because it's analogue (continuous data), not digital (sampled data). Plainly, sampled data doesn't have all the initial information in place and the DAC needs to fill in the gaps when re-creating the original analogue signal. There's no voodo with hiss. It's simply an artifact of the medium. Believe me, if you could get an analogue recording with zero hiss you would prefer it if you value how things sound in real life (transparency). Look at it like this, people with tinnitus never value the constant hiss/ringing they hear over every day sounds, and they never think it adds a pleasing sound to what they hear. 

In your pipe analogy it's actually the opposite regarding information. Analogue is full, digital is not... Presuming no clipping in the mastering.


----------



## ToroFiestaSol

In response to all the quotes regarding my questions about Dave's PSU and PCB design:
  
 When the owner of the forum and even a Chord employee take such an effort to answer, I call it:
  
 "Politically correct feeding frenzy"
  
 Good luck with the sales thread
  
 Hope you guys have a nice day


----------



## Sunya

Your question was basically why the DAVE has a crappy PSU, without offering any arguments to sustain this opinion of yours.


----------



## miketlse

torofiestasol said:


> In response to all the quotes regarding my questions about Dave's PSU and PCB design:
> 
> When the owner of the forum and even a Chord employee take such an effort to answer, I call it:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Why 'politically correct'?
  
 In your initial posts you also felt the need to include the work 'fkn' in as many sentences as possible, in an attempt to add 'force' to your statements - there is no need for such words if you want to have a calm rational discussion with people.
  
 The sun is out, and it is a nice day.


----------



## rkt31

x RELIC x, even the tape contains micro particles which are randomly distributed therefore at micro level even the tape sound theoretically is not continuous but yes it is more continuous than digital. in digital there are fixed samples of fixed resolution per second but in tape there is no such fixed thing due to random distribution of particles which is what makes tape different. hissing ( less or more depending upon mainly the size of tape) is basically the due to inherent randomness of analog process. you can't eliminate randomness from analog process and thus can't fully remove hiss.


----------



## rkt31

digital is like open channel flow because overflowing (clipping) loses information permanently while analog is partial pipe flow because even when the flow is under slight pressure there is no loss information only redistribution of information. anyway the analogy does no matter much but analog sound recording ( wide tapes) is like a medium or large format negative in which you never know how much information it holds. you keep in I increasing the scanner resolution and get better results. similarly you keep on using better adc and get better digital output of tape. so it means if an old digital recording was made at 48khz it is stuck at that rate/information but if it was done on high quality tape you always have the option to use a better adc in future. but that said both mediums have pros and cons. with the advent of recent chord DACs digital is never behind and even better in many aspect specially the noise and dynamic range


----------



## rkt31

DACs like Dave will always have upper hand in native digital recordings beacuase vinyl of such recordings will need a dac . and even in case of native analog recordings dave will do at par or better beacuase transfer to vinyl from tape will have have its own losses ( equalization etc) vs direct digital conversion from tape using high end adc ( Davina in future) and then playing back with dave.


----------



## Mython

rkt31 said:


> digital is like open channel flow because overflowing (clipping) loses information permanently while analog is partial pipe flow because even when the flow is under slight pressure there is no loss information only redistribution of information. anyway the analogy does no matter much but analog sound recording ( wide tapes) is like a medium or large format negative in which you never know how much information it holds. you keep in I increasing the scanner resolution and get better results. similarly you keep on using better adc and get better digital output of tape. so it means if an old digital recording was made at 48khz it is stuck at that rate/information but if it was done on high quality tape you always have the option to use a better adc in future. but that said both mediums have pros and cons. with the advent of recent chord DACs digital is never behind and even better in many aspect specially the noise and dynamic range


 
  
  
 It'll be interesting to see what reel-to-reel uber-analogue die-hard audiophiles make of a DAVINA ADC => DAVE DAC  recording & playback chain, in terms of the subjective results, vs. their reel-to-reel recording & playback chain.
  
  
 ...actually, let me re-phrase that:
  
  
 It'll be interesting to see what reel-to-reel uber-analogue die-hard audiophiles make of a DAVINA ADC => DAVE DAC  recording & playback chain, in terms of the subjective results, vs. their reel-to-reel recording & playback chain, _*when blind-tested*_.


----------



## theppd

Gentlemen, as a current owner of Auralic Vega I'm looking for a ~$12k DAC while I can't take them all to my place, would like to get some recommendations. Which one of those on the market could sound as the Vega but on completely another level? I do like Vega's signature for sure and would like to pick top tier dac which will remind me of technicolor sound of Vega. What bothers me regarding the Dave that I constantly read the he sounds a bit rounded. Which I'm afraid is not my cup of tea...


----------



## Jawed

mython said:


> evolvist said:
> 
> 
> > Well, hiss is a natural phenomenon for tape, though tape is wholly unnatural when compared to our environment. At least that's what I think that you're saying.
> ...



Ry Cooder's Paris Texas is another example. Originally I thought it was print through across the grooves on my vinyl copy. I'm not even sure if that is a real thing. But the CD issue revealed the tape problem.


----------



## romaz

theppd said:


> Gentlemen, as a current owner of Auralic Vega I'm looking for a ~$12k DAC while I can't take them all to my place, would like to get some recommendations. Which one of those on the market could sound as the Vega but on completely another level? I do like Vega's signature for sure and would like to pick top tier dac which will remind me of technicolor sound of Vega. What bothers me regarding the Dave that I constantly read the he sounds a bit rounded. Which I'm afraid is not my cup of tea...


 
 I know the Vega well and "technicolor" is a good descriptor although part of the vividness and sharpness that you hear with the Vega is digital grain, at least that was my impression.  If you like to watch television with your monitor set to "vivid" instead of "natural" or "neutral" and your sharpness set to "high", you may not initially like the DAVE but I believe you will adjust as the DAVE is very capable of presenting a very rich, deep  and detailed bouquet of colors but in a very tonally accurate way.
  
 When I first heard the DAVE, I also felt it sounded a bit rounded compared to anything I had previously heard including my already very smooth TotalDac and so the DAVE makes many DACs sound dry in comparison.  As I listened more, however, I found this liquidity to more accurately mirror the real sounds we hear every day.  Even a loud and explosive thunderstorm has a roundedness to its sound and so I found myself adjusting to the DAVE's presentation very easily and concluded that my previous DACs were less natural in their presentation.  What you should know is that this roundedness does not mean soft and less dynamic.  Because the noise floor of the DAVE is so low (for sure, lower than the Vega), dynamic contrasts actually feel all the more dramatic.  From out of nowhere, when called upon, this DAC can hit very hard.  If you are a headphone listener and should you plug your headphone directly into the DAVE, compared to any outboard amp, you will notice a level of speed and agility that is unmatched.  Ideally, you should hear it for yourself and while it's not practical to hear every DAC, I think you should make a special effort to hear this one.
  
 If you find that the DAVE does not suit you, an alternative to your Vega with a similar signature would be something like the Aqua La Scala Mk 2.


----------



## theppd

romaz said:


> I know the Vega well and "technicolor" is a good descriptor although part of the vividness and sharpness that you hear with the Vega is digital grain, at least that was my impression.  If you like to watch television with your monitor set to "vivid" instead of "natural" or "neutral" and your sharpness set to "high", you may not initially like the DAVE but I believe you will adjust as the DAVE is very capable of presenting a very rich, deep  and detailed bouquet of colors but in a very tonally accurate way.
> 
> When I first heard the DAVE, I also felt it sounded a bit rounded compared to anything I had previously heard including my already very smooth TotalDac and so the DAVE makes many DACs sound dry in comparison.  As I listened more, however, I found this liquidity to more accurately mirror the real sounds we hear every day.  Even a loud and explosive thunderstorm has a roundedness to its sound and so I found myself adjusting to the DAVE's presentation very easily and concluded that my previous DACs were less natural in their presentation.  What you should know is that this roundedness does not mean soft and less dynamic.  Because the noise floor of the DAVE is so low (for sure, lower than the Vega), dynamic contrasts actually feel all the more dramatic.  From out of nowhere, when called upon, this DAC can hit very hard.  If you are a headphone listener and should you plug your headphone directly into the DAVE, compared to any outboard amp, you will notice a level of speed and agility that is unmatched.  Ideally, you should hear it for yourself and while it's not practical to hear every DAC, I think you should make a special effort to hear this one.
> 
> If you find that the DAVE does not suit you, an alternative to your Vega with a similar signature would be something like the Aqua La Scala Mk 2.


 
 Romaz, thanks for such a thorough reply! Much appreciated! And have you heard the MSB Analogue? Is it on the same 'happy-sounding DAC' path as the Vega? Since basically I choose between the Dave / Analogue / or M1 from Bricasti. What I don't like initially from the latter is that it's a bit outdated already and the Analogue is sort of the beginning of the line from MSB which will bother me one day. While the Dave is the latest and greatest of those three. And Aqua is not quite in the same league in terms of appreciation of the brand history if you know what I mean.
 BTW I also use the microRendu which I find an astonishing piece of gear!


----------



## bigfatpaulie

theppd said:


> Romaz, thanks for such a thorough reply! Much appreciated! And have you heard the MSB Analogue? Is it on the same 'happy-sounding DAC' path as the Vega? Since basically I choose between the* Dave / Analogue / or M1 from Bricasti.* What I don't like initially from the latter is that it's a bit outdated already and the Analogue is sort of the beginning of the line from MSB which will bother me one day. While the Dave is the latest and greatest of those three. And Aqua is not quite in the same league in terms of appreciation of the brand history if you know what I mean.
> BTW I also use the microRendu which I find an astonishing piece of gear!


 
  
 I've owned all 3.
  
 My personal preference was DAVE > M1 > MSB.
  
 The Analog DAC is more rounded sound than the Vega - it is really smooth and doesn't have the digital grain and harshness.  It is closer to something like a DP-777 in its signature, warmer, more lush and relaxed.  MSB tuned to the DAC to sound, well, analog, and they did a very respectable job.  
  
 One thing to consider is the M1 can be had for a (relative) song and dance VS the other two.  Another thing to consider is what else is in your chain.  Are you using the DAVE as a DAC+AMP or are you running it into an amp.  Are you doing the same with the M1 and if so, is the amp a balanced amp VS single ended.  Maybe you can tell us a bit more about your system as a whole.


----------



## romaz

No, the MSB Analog will be closer in tone to the DAVE than your Vega.  None of the MSB DACs I've heard have the Technicolor sound you're looking for.  Even the Bricasti doesn't although this DAC will sound more "caffeinated" than the DAVE or MSB.
  
 If you love the microRendu, this server pairs exquisitely with the DAVE as USB is the DAVE's best input.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

romaz said:


> No, the MSB Analog will be closer in tone to the DAVE than your Vega.  None of the MSB DACs I've heard have the Technicolor sound you're looking for.  Even the Bricasti doesn't although this DAC will sound more "caffeinated" than the DAVE or MSB.
> 
> If you love the microRendu, this server pairs exquisitely with the DAVE as USB is the DAVE's best input.


 
  
 Agreed.  The M1 is DAC that sound like it is going full-throttle all the time.  The MSB and DAVE are a closer match sonically than the M1.


----------



## theppd

bigfatpaulie said:


> I've owned all 3.
> 
> My personal preference was DAVE > M1 > MSB.
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you!
 I thought so regarding the Analog...
 I plan to connect the DAC to my AMP (McIntosh MC275) directly which I do now. Balanced or not is not a major factor for me. I enjoy both at the moment from the Vega while both the amp and DAC are balanced but sound great on RCA or XLR.
 The speakers I use are the legendary Yamaha NS-2000. Which are capable of showing all the transparency the rest of the chain has as well as any digital noises and harshness of it. While I already have some beauty of the tubes in the system I would prefer to avoid any rounding and smoothing from the DAC part. Extreme transparency and pace is what I'm looking for.


----------



## theppd

So in general it seems like all comes down to the Dave vs Bricasti. How those compare to each other? Does the Bricasti sounds compressed comparing to Dave? Any flaws sound wise?


----------



## romaz

theppd said:


> So in general it seems like all comes down to the Dave vs Bricasti. How those compare to each other? Does the Bricasti sounds compressed comparing to Dave? Any flaws sound wise?


 
 Both bigfatpaulie and I have owned the Bricasti.  Obviously, you know which one we prefer.  The DAVE improves upon the Briscasti in every area although if you're looking for that artificially energetic sound, the Bricasti has a bit of this going for it.


----------



## theppd

Ok got it, thank you all!


----------



## bigfatpaulie

romaz said:


> Both bigfatpaulie and I have owned the Bricasti.  Obviously, you know which one we prefer.  The DAVE improves upon the Briscasti in every area although if you're looking for that artificially energetic sound, the Bricasti has a bit of this going for it.


 
  
 Haha.  Yes, the DAVE is, without a doubt, the superior DAC across the board.  The M1 is no slouch, however 
  


theppd said:


> So in general it seems like all comes down to the Dave vs Bricasti. How those compare to each other? Does the Bricasti sounds compressed comparing to Dave? Any flaws sound wise?


 
  
  
 If you have the budget for the DAVE, go that route and never look back.


----------



## theppd

Will do!) Thanks!


----------



## pkcpga

theppd said:


> Gentlemen, as a current owner of Auralic Vega I'm looking for a ~$12k DAC while I can't take them all to my place, would like to get some recommendations. Which one of those on the market could sound as the Vega but on completely another level? I do like Vega's signature for sure and would like to pick top tier dac which will remind me of technicolor sound of Vega. What bothers me regarding the Dave that I constantly read the he sounds a bit rounded. Which I'm afraid is not my cup of tea...




The vega has a strong signature, which I also like for my integrated piece. I had a naim v1 DAC before the Dave and I was impressed with the Dave on my home stereo set up but still like the colored sound of the naim with certain headphones. You may wind up like myself loving the Dave with certain headphones but going back to your vega for others. If your using the Dave for two channel it's pretty incredible worth bringing home for a demo. Good luck


----------



## x RELIC x

theppd said:


> Gentlemen, as a current owner of Auralic Vega I'm looking for a ~$12k DAC while I can't take them all to my place, would like to get some recommendations. Which one of those on the market could sound as the Vega but on completely another level? I do like Vega's signature for sure and would like to pick top tier dac which will remind me of *technicolor sound of Vega*. What bothers me regarding the Dave that I constantly read the he sounds a bit rounded. Which I'm afraid is not my cup of tea...





theppd said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I thought so regarding the Analog...
> 
> ...




Fundamentally the DAVE will be the extreme transparent device and the Vega will be the coloured device. Most people just aren't used to hearing DAVE's level of transparency. 


On a bit of a side note, but somewhat related to ease your mind...

Regarding regular occurring comments about the headphone out vs the line-out: The thing about explaining the system 'as a whole' vs 'just the DAC' is that there really is no/minimal difference using the line-out vs the headphone out (besides voltage). They basically share the same path, as confirmed by Rob (much) earlier in the thread. The issue that I constantly read is the weak 'headphone amp' portion of the DAVE is causing a difference. No, it's not.

The output is essentially closer to a variable line-out from the DAC whether using the analogue outputs from the rear or the headphone out on the front. The reason Rob can achieve this is the incredible noise performances of the WTA filter and the Pulse Array DAC. No other manufacturer has done this so it's easy to fall in the common trap of 'the built in amp makes a difference'. In essence there is no seperate headphone amp to make a difference.

Also, all of Rob's designs are fundamentally single ended. Traditionally a balanced topology is used to hide issues in the silicone as explained by Rob earlier. Indeed a single ended implementation can be more transparent but the noise issues must be solved at the DAC end in order to achieve this. 

To quickly find out more about what Rob's approach to his DAC designs is I highly recommend anyone who is interested to read romaz's summary post of Rob's information, found here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1395#post_12262339


----------



## pkcpga

Since a lot of people on here are fellow Dave owners, I need to pick up a cheaper closed headphone (under $500, preferably under $300), since I will only be using it for two weeks. I don't use closed headphones much since I usually listen in my own home or office or use IEM's while traveling but I'll be helping a friend at their office for two weeks and not sure I can handle long periods with IEM's. Thanks
My favorite current headphone is grado gs1000i or sennheiser hd800. I also own the Audeze LCD 3 but like the first two more.


----------



## paulchiu

pkcpga said:


> Since a lot of people on here are fellow Dave owners, I need to pick up a cheaper closed headphone (under $500, preferably under $300), since I will only be using it for two weeks. I don't use closed headphones much since I usually listen in my own home or office or use IEM's while traveling but I'll be helping a friend at their office for two weeks and not sure I can handle long periods with IEM's. Thanks
> My favorite current headphone is grado gs1000i or sennheiser hd800. I also own the Audeze LCD 3 but like the first two more.


 
  
 Are you using this sub $500 with the DAVE?
 If so, I like my Fujisan Telos with the DAVE in my office.  Often use it for the whole day, if I am not interrupted.
  
 https://goo.gl/B7QTqa


----------



## x RELIC x

pkcpga said:


> Since a lot of people on here are fellow Dave owners, I need to pick up a cheaper closed headphone (under $500, preferably under $300), since I will only be using it for two weeks. I don't use closed headphones much since I usually listen in my own home or office or use IEM's while traveling but I'll be helping a friend at their office for two weeks and not sure I can handle long periods with IEM's. Thanks
> My favorite current headphone is grado gs1000i or sennheiser hd800. I also own the Audeze LCD 3 but like the first two more.




Given your listed sound signature preference and price range I'd say that the AKG-550 may be an option. The treble can be a little metallic, but overall, for a closed headphone at the price, it does well for soundstage and clarity. The key to a balanced sound though is getting a good seal as the clamping force of the headband is rather weak. Many with a smaller head just can't get a good seal. I've modified mine with tissue under the earpad rim and bent the headband a little to help with the seal. Worth an audition at least.


----------



## pkcpga

paulchiu said:


> Are you using this sub $500 with the DAVE?
> If so, I like my Fujisan Telos with the DAVE in my office.  Often use it for the whole day, if I am not interrupted.
> 
> https://goo.gl/B7QTqa



No I'll be using with the mojo or take my naim v1 DAC along, I use the Dave with my home set up.


----------



## pkcpga

x relic x said:


> Given your listed sound signature preference and price range I'd say that the AKG-550 may be an option. The treble can be a little metallic, but overall, for a closed headphone at the price, it does well for soundstage and clarity. The key to a balanced sound though is getting a good seal as the clamping force of the headband is rather weak. Many with a smaller head just can't get a good seal. I've modified mine with tissue under the earpad rim and bent the headband a little to help with the seal. Worth an audition at least.



Thanks, sounds good, I like clear present natural sounding vocals, how are the vocals on the akg?


----------



## x RELIC x

pkcpga said:


> Thanks, sounds good, I like clear present natural sounding vocals, how are the vocals on the akg?




Clear and present. :wink_face:


----------



## pkcpga

x relic x said:


> Clear and present. :wink_face:



Great sounds like a perfect match.


----------



## ecwl

pkcpga said:


> Since a lot of people on here are fellow Dave owners, I need to pick up a cheaper closed headphone (under $500, preferably under $300), since I will only be using it for two weeks. I don't use closed headphones much since I usually listen in my own home or office or use IEM's while traveling but I'll be helping a friend at their office for two weeks and not sure I can handle long periods with IEM's. Thanks
> My favorite current headphone is grado gs1000i or sennheiser hd800. I also own the Audeze LCD 3 but like the first two more.



I use my Oppo PM3 with my Mojo at work. It's okay. I doubt you'll hate it. It's worth what it's worth.


----------



## paulchiu

pkcpga said:


> No I'll be using with the mojo or take my naim v1 DAC along, I use the Dave with my home set up.


 
  
 The Telos works great with my Hugo as well. So probably fine with Mojo.
 Has an airy feel, much wider staging than my other IEMs.
  
 paul


----------



## pkcpga

paulchiu said:


> The Telos works great with my Hugo as well. So probably fine with Mojo.
> Has an airy feel, much wider staging than my other IEMs.
> 
> paul



Thanks I like my IEM's just don't work well with taking them on and off for quick questions all the time.


----------



## x RELIC x

Yes, the PM-3 as well as the Audeze Sine are very good options as well. They reportedly perform _very well_ (I haven't heard them) but from what I gather are less 'bright' than the AKG, and decidedly more money, even though they may be the better performers all around.

Edit: To add, the Meze 99 classics are getting good reviews, but the styling is a bit 'flashy'.


----------



## pkcpga

x relic x said:


> Yes, the PM-3 as well as the Audeze Sine are very good options as well. They reportedly perform _very well_ (I haven't heard them) but from what I gather are less 'bright' than the AKG, and decidedly more money, even though they may be the better performers all around.
> 
> Edit: To add, the Meze 99 classics are getting good reviews, but the styling is a bit 'flashy'.



I listened to the Audeze sine at my local dealer not impressed at all very muddy sounding, not clear vocals at all.

Has anyone heard the pm3, I can't find anyone that carries in NYC or Boston area.


----------



## extenso

My impression is that most owners and reviewers measure the quality of DAVE based on music genres known for pristine recording quality - classical, jazz and other mainly acoustic genres. I am all for testing gear using recordings where you have an idea about how instruments and vocals are supposed to sound in real life. I would do the same. But when daily musical preferences point toward the harsh, murky world of extreme metal, what would Rob Watts`creation become then? A very shine pearl before swine? To put it another way: I am very tempted by DAVE for pairing with my HE-1000, but will its vanishingly low distortion and exquisite timing work wonders for the black metal buzz as well as the vast dynamics and ambience of a symphony? The temptation to have a top-flight DAC is hard to resist. In the grand scheme of things, DAVE is affordable if it could provide a lifetime of musical joy.  
  
 Or should I just aim for the possibly rounded flavour of the Mojo?


----------



## JaZZ

extenso said:


> My impression is that most owners and reviewers measure the quality of DAVE based on music genres known for pristine recording quality - classical, jazz and other mainly acoustic genres. I am all for testing gear using recordings where you have an idea about how instruments and vocals are supposed to sound in real life. I would do the same. But when daily musical preferences point toward the harsh, murky world of extreme metal, what would Rob Watts`creation become then? A very shine pearl before swine? To put it another way: I am very tempted by DAVE for pairing with my HE-1000, but will its vanishingly low distortion and exquisite timing work wonders for the black metal buzz as well as the vast dynamics and ambience of a symphony?


 
  
 Yes. Metal with its dense sound fabric benefits a lot from DAVE's high resolution and dynamics, orchestral music anyway. That said, the way it renders all the subtleties of a solo violin, saxophone or flute is equally outstanding.
  
 Generally DAVE's virtues are not restricted to certain genres, as I see it, but certainly to some degree dependent on the recording (quality).


----------



## Crgreen

I've played a wide range of music on the DAVE, and everything benefits from the increase in resolution and removal of digital nasties. Guitar distortions are simply more apparent as inentional affects, though there have been times when I've worried if my speaker cones have split, and realised it's the recording. A good example of a heavily processed recording which sounds great is the hi-res version of El Vy's "Return to the Moon" (recommended). How much you value this accuracy, and the extent to which it makes a significant difference to the music is of course, a matter of preference.


----------



## JaZZ

crgreen said:


> I've played a wide range of music on the DAVE, and everything benefits from the increase in resolution and removal of digital nasties. *Guitar distortions are simply more apparent as inentional effects*, though there have been times when I've worried if my speaker cones have split, and realised it's the recording. A good example of a heavily processed recording which sounds great is the hi-res version of El Vy's "Return to the Moon" (recommended). How much you value this accuracy, and the extent to which it makes a significant difference to the music is of course, a matter of preference.


 
  
 That's a good example. I especially like the way DAVE reproduces electric guitars, distorted or not.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

Hugo = You Go
 Mojo = Mobile Joy
 Why "Dave"?


----------



## x RELIC x

louisarmstrong said:


> Hugo = You Go
> Mojo = Mobile Joy
> Why "Dave"?




*D*igital to *A*nalogue *V*eritas in *E*xtremis (truth in the extreme).


----------



## extenso

x relic x said:


> *D*igital to *A*nalogue *V*eritas *E*xtremus (truth in the extreme).


 
 Not a big deal, but the exact phrasing is "in Extremis".


----------



## x RELIC x

extenso said:


> Not a big deal, but the exact phrasing is "in Extremis".




Lol, Auto Correctus in Extremis!


----------



## extenso

x relic x said:


> Lol, Auto Correctus in Extremis!


 
 ACE.


----------



## Mython

@ *x RELIC x*:
  
 I think it's time you upgraded your auto-correct algorithm to one with 164,000 taps, don't you? It doesn't seem very accurate, right now!


----------



## Light - Man

mython said:


> @ *x RELIC x*:
> 
> I think it's time you upgraded your auto-correct algorithm to one with 1*64,000 taps*, don't you? It doesn't seem very accurate, right now!


 
 I think that there may have been one too many taps in the algorithm? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
 Guys, what is the Mojo doing on the Dave thread? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
*Has anyone tested if the IFI IPurifier2 improves the SQ of the Dave?*


----------



## onsionsi

light - man said:


> I think that there may have been one too many taps in the algorithm? :blink:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It will not make a difference or any improvement in the SQ as per advice from audiophiles here in this forum


----------



## Light - Man

onsionsi said:


> It will not make a difference or any improvement in the SQ as per advice from audiophiles here in this forum


 

 Thanks for your reply!
  
 That is interesting, as it seems that the microRendu improves the SQ?
  
 One last general question, *has anyone experienced if a simple battery powered supply to a DAC can compete with the expensive and more elaborate linear power supply's?*


----------



## paulchiu

light - man said:


> *Has anyone tested if the IFI IPurifier2 improves the SQ of the Dave?*


 
  
 None with the DAVE.
 a little with Hugo.
  
 paul


----------



## rkt31

@Light - Man, before Hugo I had arcam irdac. 12v supply from a battery improved the imaging considerably.


----------



## romaz

light - man said:


> One last general question, *has anyone experienced if a simple battery powered supply to a DAC can compete with the expensive and more elaborate linear power supply's?*


 
 Yes, Rob has.  The Mojo, Hugo and TT are all based on some form of battery technology (supercapacitors).  For these DACs, it was what he thought was best.  For the DAVE, because of the techniques employed to isolate the DAVE against the power supply and against ground noise, he went with a medical grade switching PSU.
  
 As recently debated on this thread, there is much more to consider in a power supply than whether it is linear or switching in topology and with linear power supplies, they are certainly not all created equal with many factors to consider including the size of the transformer used to avoid core saturation as well regulator design to minimize ripple noise, output impedance, etc.  Rob has stated that he believes the ultimate power supply for audio is a 12v sealed lead acid car battery as they provide very large amounts of clean power on tap with sufficiently low impedance and so this is the standard of power supply he strived to compete against.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> Yes, Rob has.  The Mojo, Hugo and TT are all based on some form of battery technology (supercapacitors).  For these DACs, it was what he thought was best.  For the DAVE, because of the techniques employed to isolate the DAVE against the power supply and against ground noise, he went with a medical grade switching PSU.
> 
> As recently debated on this thread, there is much more to consider in a power supply than whether it is linear or switching in topology and with linear power supplies, they are certainly not all created equal with many factors to consider including the size of the transformer used to avoid core saturation as well regulator design to minimize ripple noise, output impedance, etc.  Rob has stated that he believes the ultimate power supply for audio is a 12v sealed lead acid car battery as they provide very large amounts of clean power on tap with sufficiently low impedance and so this is the standard of power supply he strived to compete against.


 
  
 I wonder how long a car battery can power the DAVE without recharging.
  
 paul


----------



## romaz

extenso said:


> My impression is that most owners and reviewers measure the quality of DAVE based on music genres known for pristine recording quality - classical, jazz and other mainly acoustic genres. I am all for testing gear using recordings where you have an idea about how instruments and vocals are supposed to sound in real life. I would do the same. But when daily musical preferences point toward the harsh, murky world of extreme metal, what would Rob Watts`creation become then? A very shine pearl before swine? To put it another way: I am very tempted by DAVE for pairing with my HE-1000, but will its vanishingly low distortion and exquisite timing work wonders for the black metal buzz as well as the vast dynamics and ambience of a symphony? The temptation to have a top-flight DAC is hard to resist. In the grand scheme of things, DAVE is affordable if it could provide a lifetime of musical joy.
> 
> Or should I just aim for the possibly rounded flavour of the Mojo?


 
 I agree with what JaZZ and Crgreen have said.  The quality of the recording more than the genre is probably the more important factor and I find modern recordings to be more consistently of a high standard regardless of genre.  There is a head-fier here who owns a DAVE (who I will not name) who listens largely to gangster rap with his DAVE.  At first, I thought he was joking but he was not and he was quick to tell me that rap recordings are some of the best recordings out there and sure enough, while listening to some gangster rap on the DAVE, while I could do without the offensive language, I was quite impressed.  It has been said that an unamplified voice is the most difficult thing for audio equipment to convincingly reproduce and while no one will be fooled in a blind test against the real thing, the DAVE does a very credible job.


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> I wonder how long a car battery can power the DAVE without recharging.
> 
> paul


 
 I know people who power their monobloc amps with car batteries.  It's not a pretty sight but very effective.


----------



## Light - Man

*Guys, thanks again for all your answers!*
  
 As most of you will know, it will depend on the *Amp-hour* rating of the battery, as to how long it would last with the Dave, etc.
  
 If we knew the power usage of the Dave was, it would be easy to work out how long a particular battery would last.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> I know people who power their monobloc amps with car batteries.  It's not a pretty sight but very effective.


 
  
 Roy,
  
 I wonder how they do this on a daily basis.  
 For one, you need a quality inverter to connect the car battery with a power strip.
 This additional unit may bring in noise and distortion.  Whether this is less than the local utility is debatable.
  
 Another issue is that the inverter can run truly hot so safety can be an issue.
  
 Finally, a really large car battery rated 500 amp hours can drive a 25 amps system continuously for 20 hours.  That's not even a day.  Of course, if all we want is to drive the DAVE with headphones, we won't need 25 amps.  Still, that $150 battery will need to be replaced regularly.
  
 Hmm, maybe through Amazon subscription service....
  
 paul


----------



## romaz

light - man said:


> *Guys, thanks again for all your answers!*
> 
> As most of you will know, it will depend on the *Amp-hour* rating of the battery, as to how long it would last with the Dave, etc.
> 
> If we knew the power usage of the Dave was, it would be easy to work out how long a particular battery would last.


 
 Rob has already said he could no longer differentiate his setup against a 12-volt car battery and so I'm not sure what you think you would achieve trying to use a car battery to power the DAVE.


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> Roy,
> 
> I wonder how they do this on a daily basis.
> For one, you need a quality inverter to connect the car battery with a power strip.
> ...


 
 No inverters are used.  The amps are directly DC powered by the batteries.


----------



## Light - Man

Some DAC's have DC input Jacks, in my case it has a12 volt input, which is handy.
  
 I never suggested doing anything with the Dave.
  
 If I had a fat-cat DAC like the Dave, I would just lean back in my fat-cat chair and enjoy the music!!!


----------



## paulchiu

light - man said:


> Some DAC's have DC input Jacks, in my case it has a12 volt input, which is handy.
> 
> I never suggested doing anything with the Dave.
> 
> If I had a fat-cat DAC like the Dave, I would just lean back in my fat-cat chair and enjoy the music!!!


 
  
 Yes.  The battery option for the Nagra HD DAC cost another $2000 US.
  
 paul


----------



## Mython

light - man said:


> Some DAC's have DC input Jacks, in my case it has a12 volt input, which is handy.
> 
> I never suggested doing anything with the Dave.
> 
> If I had a fat-cat DAC like the Dave, I would just lean back in my fat-cat chair and enjoy the music!!!


 
  
*'feline' good...*


----------



## x RELIC x

I have a quick question for Rob Watts. With the Mojo set to the line level of 3V clicking the volume down will give 1.9V, closer to the standard 2V CD standard output. With the DAVE set to DAC mode it's volume setting is -3dB which outputs 3V (6V balanced). Will setting the pre-amp mode volume to -7dB result in 1.9V (3.8V balanced)?

Thanks. 

P.S. There is a typo in the manual that states the DAC mode sets volume to 3dB, but the display shows -3dB on the DAVE when set to DAC mode.


----------



## EVOLVIST

light - man said:


> I think that there may have been one too many taps in the algorithm? :blink:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have the iFi iUSB 3.0 and I heard no change in the DAVE either. For most DACS the iUSB 3.0 offers plenty. Not for the DAVE, though.


----------



## rgs9200m

romaz said:


> It has been said that an unamplified voice is the most difficult thing for audio equipment to convincingly reproduce


 
 So true. I've heard many a system sound otherwise fine but fall to pieces trying to play vocals, even sounding painful, shrill, grainy, or at least obviously mechanical or artificial.
 It's the real acid test. I think our brains are tuned to know what true voice sounds like. I envy the people who only listen to classical without many vocals. I think they have an easier time of it getting things right.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

extenso said:


> Not a big deal, but the exact phrasing is "in Extremis".


 

 Is that Latin?


----------



## LouisArmstrong

romaz said:


> Rob has already said he could no longer differentiate his setup against a 12-volt car battery and so I'm not sure what you think you would achieve trying to use a car battery to power the DAVE.


 

 One reason is that he may want to use the Dave in his car.


----------



## x RELIC x

louisarmstrong said:


> Is that Latin?




Yes, Veritas is Latin for "truth" and Extemis is "in the farthest reaches".


----------



## romaz

louisarmstrong said:


> One reason is that he may want to use the Dave in his car.


 
 Not a bad idea.  I have been looking for ways to upgrade the seriously woeful DAC in my Tesla Model S.  Light Harmonic (maker of the DaVinci and Sire DACs) is considering manufacturing such an upgrade.  What a dream come true it would be to incorporate a DAVE in a car (or even a Mojo).


----------



## LouisArmstrong

romaz said:


> Not a bad idea.  I have been looking for ways to upgrade the seriously woeful DAC in my Tesla Model S.  Light Harmonic (maker of the DaVinci and Sire DACs) is considering manufacturing such an upgrade.  What a dream come true it would be to incorporate a DAVE in a car (or even a Mojo).


 

 Let's just say that you buy the Model S for its acceleration and its looks - not its interiors...


----------



## romaz

As some have expressed interest in some of HFC's products with the Chord DAVE, especially their mains cables, MC-0.5 Waveguides and their MC-6 Hemisphere line conditioner, here is a review that just came out from our very own @bacon333.
  
 https://audiobacon.net/2016/08/02/high-fidelity-ct-1-ultimate-power-cord-and-mc-0-5-review/


----------



## EVOLVIST

louisarmstrong said:


> Is that Latin?


 
  
 Born in 1901, 115 years old today, on August 4th, 2016, and you don't know Latin when you see it? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 By the way, happy birthday, Louis.


----------



## paulchiu

romaz said:


> As some have expressed interest in some of HFC's products with the Chord DAVE, especially their mains cables, MC-0.5 Waveguides and their MC-6 Hemisphere line conditioner, here is a review that just came out from our very own @bacon333.
> 
> https://audiobacon.net/2016/08/02/high-fidelity-ct-1-ultimate-power-cord-and-mc-0-5-review/


 
  
 Roy,
  
 I am wondering if this would work in your view if I substitute HFC CT-1 power cable here with one of my Sigma cable to a Shunyata MPC-12C for my computer gear.  The 2 MC-0.5s stay where they are.  
 Then the other outlet will be another Sigma cable into a Triton V2, which powers my DAVE.
  




  
 (does it matter where i buy that orange thing?)
  
 paul


----------



## romaz

paulchiu said:


> Roy,
> 
> I am wondering if this would work in your view if I substitute HFC CT-1 power cable here with one of my Sigma cable to a Shunyata MPC-12C for my computer gear.  The 2 MC-0.5s stay where they are.
> Then the other outlet will be another Sigma cable into a Triton V2, which powers my DAVE.
> ...


 
 Paul, I will PM my reply.


----------



## stvc

romaz said:


> Paul, I will PM my reply.


 

 Any HFC thread? I will join in


----------



## romaz

stvc said:


> Any HFC thread? I will join in


 
 I will try and start one soon.  The next HFC headphone prototype (projected to sell for $3k) will be ready in 2 weeks and I hope to have a listen to it then.  I will post photos as they become available.


----------



## rkt31

@x RELIC x, yes if -3db is 3v then -7db will be around 1.9v .


----------



## EVOLVIST

Anyone here a DAVE owner in the UK, close to London?


----------



## Rob Watts

This thread got a little interesting last week with talk about the PSU within Dave. Now that the dust has settled, I thought it would be a good idea to discuss the thinking behind the power supply with Dave.
  
 When it was mentioned that Dave's  PSU was just a simple medical SMPS I had a little chuckle to myself.
  
 Because the medical SMPS is not Dave's PSU - at least not the PSU that actually matters. You may as well talk about which power source you are using from the mains - nuclear, fossil or wind/solar? OK that's an extreme exaggeration, but power is simply a serial chain, and the medical SMPS is not the critical component within Dave's power structure. It's actually an extremely elaborate and complex interdependent *system*. And this is the reason why I found the post amusing. So that you can understand, lets talk about what you need from a PSU within a DAC:
  
*1. RF noise*. This by far is the most important thing in a PSU and analog electronics; it's something I talk about a great deal. The problem is that analogue audio components are non-linear, and very non-linear at RF (and by that I actually mean 20 kHz to several GHz). When a random RF noise gets into active audio components, it distorts with the wanted audio signal and creates inter-modulation distortion - and some of the inter-modulation distortion has an audio component - audible random noise. What happens with this is when there is no audio signal, you get no inter-modulation distortion, hence no extra noise. When the audio signal increases, the inter-modulation products increases, and noise goes up - so noise levels becomes linked to the signal level and you get noise floor modulation. Now this issue is easy to measure, and taking steps to remove RF noise lowers noise floor modulation. Additionally, you can improve the analogue electronics open loop RF linearity too.
  
 The problem with noise floor modulation is the ear/brain is extremely sensitive to it, and certainly can detect levels of noise floor modulation that is below the ability to measure. My own tentative conclusions (or rule of thumb) are that one can hear levels of noise floor modulation down to -200dB - currently we can measure noise floor modulation at -180 dB, and Dave has zero measured noise floor modulation. In terms of SQ, if noise floor modulation is say around -120 dB (typical class D) you get considerable hardness and glare; at -140 dB its grain in the treble; below -160 dB then things sound much smoother with better instrument separation and focus. This continues until about -200dB (and perhaps even lower - reducing RF noise is not something that has an acceptable limit).
  
 But to get this level of performance required me to do many things; and part of that was the PSU system. I call it a system because it is lots of parts working together, with sources of noise within the DAC contaminating other parts. One source is the mains power, so this is dealt with a filter that starts at a few 100 Hz to several GHz - each PSU line (+15v,-15v,+5v) from the SMPS is individually filtered with a complex multistage filter. That covers RF noise initially, but every analogue part is individually regulated and RF filtered again. Moreover, each digital module is individually RF filtered too, as each digital part of a DAC is a huge RF noise generator.
  
*2. PSU impedance*. The impedance of the power supply is crucial too as it can create distortion which is audible. The actual mechanism for distortion from an amplifier is due to the fact that an amp draws signal related current from the PSU; this current then creates a voltage drop in the power rails (an error) that is signal dependent; this error then is fed back to the amplifiers output by the amp power supply rejection ration (PSRR); the error then creates distortion in the output. For Class A it is second harmonic, for class B it is very serious HF harmonics extending to infinite harmonics. Now its very easy to design the amp to avoid this problem; simply use low enough output impedance PSU and an amp that has a large enough PSRR. It is easy to calculate your requirements; much more difficult to design a stage that meets those requirements. So with Dave I wanted no measurable effect from this; this meant a PSU impedance in the OP stage of 3 milli ohms, which would make this effect un-measurable at -180dB. And that's exactly what I achieve; loading the output stage shows no measurable PSU induced distortion at all.
  
*3. Reference supply. *So far I have talked about the requirements for the analogue section; and this is an interaction between amp topology (sensitivity to RF and PSRR) against the actual levels within the PSU. So you could use a poor PSU with an amp that had amazing RF and PSRR or vice versa. My approach with Dave is to use both strategies - get the best innate isolation with the best filtering I could do. But there is a PSU where whatever happens on the PSU will be directly on the output and this is the reference PSU. Now nobody talks about the reference for two reasons - it is buried inside a DAC chip, and because people are not aware of how crucial this component is. The reference supplies the voltage that is used to create the analogue voltage (or current) output on the DAC, so clearly if that voltage changes it will have an immediate and 100% impact on the output. Normally, with a silicon DAC the reference presents a problem; noise on the reference will appear on the output, so making the SNR and dynamic range (DR) depend on the reference. Its actually extremely difficult to have a 120dB reference voltage on chip; so to overcome this they use a differential structure (balanced + and -). This means the reference noise, when its reproducing small signals is cancelled as it becomes common mode. So you get good DR figures from a poor reference. But when the signal becomes larger, the cancellation stops and you then see the reference noise and you get noise floor modulation - which is very measurable and very audible. Its one reason why chip based DAC's have large amounts of noise floor modulation.
  
 Now with all my DAC's I have the freedom to design my own discrete reference, so can use very low noise references - and I do not have to worry about substrate noise upsetting the reference, something that is impossible to eliminate on chip DAC's. So the reference is crucial for noise floor modulation, but its also crucial for distortion too. Any signal related currents on the reference will create an error voltage, which will modulate the output causing distortion. In the case of a differential structure it causes amplitude modulation - a problem that won't be seen with simple measurements of distortion. With my SE designs I get to see it directly, which means its easy to measure it and solve it - and because you are also eliminating amplitude modulation (which is very audible) it gives me a short cut to better sound quality.
  
 With Dave I had to go to immense efforts to solve these problems - and its one reason why I get such good measured performance. But it took many years to design and get right. With Dave the reference OP is less than 0.1 milli ohms at the feedback point (that's a damping factor of about 100,000) and at the PCB power plane each flip flop sees only 0.5 milli ohms. Now the actual distortion you get with reference impedance does depend upon the flip flop currents, and this is a system design issue of balancing resistor noise with distortion - resistor noise being the dominant noise source for Dave. To eliminate measurable noise floor modulation I had to design the noise of the reference to be less than 0.3 uV  20 to 20k. Considering it is a 5v voltage, that is a DR of 144 dB. What other power supply or amplifier has 0.1 milli ohms and -144 dB noise?
  
 So you can see my amusement about the PSU discussion. Would using a better SMPS give better SQ? Maybe, but the evidence suggests no. When I used this power supply, I initially used the DAC 64 unit. But I could see switching noise at -130 dB at 40 kHz - going to the better medical PSU eliminated this problem - but when I replaced the unit I could not hear a change (I did not do an AB test, just plugged it in and listened henceforth and I was not struck by my system sounding better). So far the listening evidence is that is good enough.
  
 I always get amused by audiophiles listening with their eyes, so a big PSU with lots of decoupling caps must be better than a small PSU. But the actual reality is that PSU interaction and sound quality is a hugely complex interdependent system problem, and eliminating these problems are not visible, nor are they easy. Also, the techniques I use that I have discussed in this post is used from Mojo up to Dave; its just a question of how much budget I have available to solve these issues. Even Mojo has no measurable noise floor modulation at -170 dB; and it uses the same principles of a discrete reference circuit - albeit not as sophisticated and costly as Dave's.
  
 Rob


----------



## x RELIC x

I feel as though I've just been to a brief master class (relative to my own knowledge). Thanks Rob.


----------



## miketlse

rob watts said:


> I always get amused by audiophiles listening with their eyes, so a big PSU with lots of decoupling caps must be better than a small PSU.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Very comprehensive explanation and masterclass.
  
 Unfortunately it is true that for some audiophiles, the size of their equipment, is more important than what they can achieve with it.


----------



## m0nster

miketlse said:


> Very comprehensive explanation and masterclass.
> 
> Unfortunately it is true that for some audiophiles, the size of their equipment, is more important than what they can achieve with it.


 
  
 That's not just audiophiles. Actually, it's guys in general that are all about the size of their equipment.
  
 Sorry for the remark, but that was just too obvious


----------



## Mython

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






rob watts said:


> This thread got a little interesting last week with talk about the PSU within Dave. Now that the dust has settled, I thought it would be a good idea to discuss the thinking behind the power supply with Dave.
> 
> When it was mentioned that Dave's  PSU was just a simple medical SMPS I had a little chuckle to myself.
> 
> ...


 
  


  
  
 I'm sorry, Rob, but that's no excuse - I see no reason why you couldn't have included an enormous bank of expensive capacitors, for people to feast their eyes on, and just left them secretly unconnected to your circuits


----------



## miketlse

mython said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well for the Hugo TT, he did use *supercapacitors*!


----------



## Mython

miketlse said:


> mython said:
> 
> 
> > Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> ...


 

 Yes, but TT's capacitors are legitimately connected.
  
  
 What I'm saying is that Rob should have included an enormous bank of totally-unnecessary, and unconnected, but impressive-looking, capacitors, just to keep the eye-candy audiophiles satiated.
  
 It's important that they are utterly redundant and superfluous, from a technical standpoint - they'd be there purely to impress audiophiles who hear with their eyes...


----------



## Mython

Back to seriousness, I have a technical question, for Rob:
  
 Is the very low impedance of well-designed SMPS's the primary reason why John likes to use them in his power-amp designs, or is there some other reason they are common in the Chord amplifier lineup?


----------



## miketlse

mython said:


> Yes, but TT's capacitors are legitimately connected. I know
> 
> 
> What I'm saying is that Rob should have included an enormous bank of totally-unnecessary, and unconnected, but impressive-looking, capacitors, just to keep the eye-candy audiophiles satiated. I did understand that
> ...


----------



## romaz

rob watts said:


> So you can see my amusement about the PSU discussion...
> 
> Rob


 
 Rob, I'm sure there are many things posted here that are probably amusing to you.  Thank you for going out of your way to explain and educate, nonetheless.  Your posts are obviously why so many people check in every day.
  
 It's also amazing what you divulge about your DACs.  Where other manufacturers are so secretive about revealing the details of their designs for fear of having their IP stolen, you seem to divulge things so freely but in so doing, you also instill confidence in those who us who have bought your DACs.  
  
 Here are a couple of your quotes from the past I have always found fascinating and may be of interest for others to read:
  
"Yes I got some flack from Chord initially about my postings in that I was giving too much information away and perhaps I do. But what the heck, life is too short. I spend all my waking time thinking about audio, and my sleeping time is often spent solving problems - I often wake up with a problem solved. And its about enjoying music, so when I get a technical improvement that also results in enjoying music more then I naturally want to talk to people who care about audio too.
  
As to other companies? No not really, I am off on my own trek. There is nobody else walking on this path, which is why I am not bothered about about the possibility of giving valuable information away. This stuff is complex and takes many years to get right and generally engineers with advanced technical skills (there are very few) generally don't do listening tests, and the people that do listening tests don't have the skills. For example, I have been bleating on about long tap length WTA filters for 15 years, and the rest of the industry has simply ignored it and yet this is a simple concept proven by maths. I am still amazed nobody else has long tap length filters...."
  
 And then this one:
  
"Clearly if I thought other solutions were better, then I would already be doing it. I have been designing DAC's for over 27 years, and designing with my own DAC technology for 22 years. That's a long time. Also, I am the only DAC designer who has designed silicon chips too, and had a very successful career on that side. Its given me a very valuable insight into the engineering problems of DAC design with silicon, as well as valuable insight into how these devices are developed.
 
I do get to hear other DAC's at shows, and am interested in the technology. But I have not heard or seen anything that has caught my attention. And just because its 100K does not make it better - too many audiophiles listen with their wallets rather than their ears..."


----------



## Mython

romaz said:


> Here are a couple of your quotes from the past I have always found fascinating and may be of interest for others to read:
> 
> "... my sleeping time is often spent solving problems - I often wake up with a problem solved. ...."


 
  
  
 That, there, is timeless wisdom. Intensely-creative people understand the power of the subconscious mind to solve problems. The intellect can only take one just so far in any endeavour.


----------



## miketlse

mython said:


> That, there, is timeless wisdom. Intensely-creative people understand the power of the subconscious mind to solve problems. The intellect can only take one just so far in any endeavour.


 
  
 This is similar to the benefit I gain from going for walks in the country - getting my mind out of it's daily office driven 'comfort zone', and letting my mind wander as I enjoy looking at nature, and then often the solutions to problems will just appear from my subconcious. The subconcious is a powerful tool, if people let it operate properly.


----------



## miketlse

romaz said:


> Rob, I'm sure there are many things posted here that are probably amusing to you.  Thank you for going out of your way to explain and educate, nonetheless.  Your posts are obviously why so many people check in every day.
> 
> It's also amazing what you divulge about your DACs.  Where other manufacturers are so secretive about revealing the details of their designs for fear of having their IP stolen, you seem to divulge things so freely but in so doing, you also instill confidence in those who us who have bought your DACs.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I always remember a short conversation that I had twenty years ago, with the Director of the Computer Integrated Manufacturing course I was studying.
  
 I was asking about IP, and mentioned that if any organisation manufactures and sells any product, then surely their competitors can just buy one of the products, dismantle it, and laser scan all the component parts to measure their geometries - so surely an organisation cannot protect its IP.
  
 The Director replied that it is impossible to prevent a competitor buying one of your products, and discovering all the component parts. However that knowledge is not the IP to worry about, because your competitor still does not know the most important IP which is 'how you managed to design, manufacture and sell your product, for the price that you did'.


----------



## maxh22

miketlse said:


> I always remember a short conversation that I had twenty years ago, with the Director of the Computer Integrated Manufacturing course I was studying.
> 
> I was asking about IP, and mentioned that if any organisation manufactures and sells any product, then surely their competitors can just buy one of the products, dismantle it, and laser scan all the component parts to measure their geometries - so surely an organisation cannot protect its IP.
> 
> The Director replied that it is impossible to prevent a competitor buying one of your products, and discovering all the component parts. However that knowledge is not the IP to worry about, because your competitor still does not know the most important IP which is 'how you managed to design, manufacture and sell your product, for the price that you did'.


 
 Well said!


----------



## Beolab

From my understanding and if i use some comon sense a high quality medical grade switched SMPS are almost imune to noise and jitter, and the circuit of Robś PSU design are saying btw the lines that a battery drive / power regenerator / power line filters and ultra expensive power cords are more or less not nessesary, but it feels and look better maybe ☀️

The only thing that could happen is that the switched SMPS are sending out humming noise , and RF downstream to your other sources in your system. 

My solution to this is a Isotek Sirius power line filter with individual ac outlets that working as a shield btw the outlets, so it should not affect the other components in the system because of the activ X-filter Isotek are using, which i highly recomend for your DAVE, you do not need any fancy Regenerator or something like it because of the switching SMPS. 

And if you can hear the diffrence which i find are extreme subtle even when i have been using a balanced toroidal tranformer: Torus AVR 20 Regenerator on loan. 
http://www.toruspower.com/product-ranges/

So you can save the money


----------



## Crgreen

Stravinsky said that the Rite of Soring came to him in a dream and apparently, Fermat dreamt a proof of his famous theorem...and forgot it when he woke.

In Somnis Veritas.


----------



## pkcpga

rob watts said:


> This thread got a little interesting last week with talk about the PSU within Dave. Now that the dust has settled, I thought it would be a good idea to discuss the thinking behind the power supply with Dave.
> 
> When it was mentioned that Dave's  PSU was just a simple medical SMPS I had a little chuckle to myself.
> 
> ...




Hi Rob
Do you know if there will be an update to play mqa format when it becomes available?
Thanks


----------



## Rob Watts

MQA is still under evaluation.
  
 But since Dave is an FPGA DAC, and it has a spare expansion connector to the FPGA, we could choose to support any future developments - if I was convinced that it offered a credible improvement in sound quality. If a future development also offered an improvement in musicality then I would move "heaven and earth" to get it incorporated into my designs.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

I am on holiday in Florida, and as usual my boys wanted to go to the Lego shop.
  
 I couldn't resist this:


----------



## miketlse

rob watts said:


> I am on holiday in Florida, and as usual my boys wanted to go to the Lego shop.
> 
> I couldn't resist this:


 
  
 I am sure that someone will now post a photo of their austin powers cup, with the word mojo on the side.


----------



## pkcpga

rob watts said:


> I am on holiday in Florida, and as usual my boys wanted to go to the Lego shop.
> 
> I couldn't resist this:



Very nice, my kids love that store, earlier this year my son kept me in Harry Potter land for an entire day. The wands that do magic tricks really got him. Enjoy.


----------



## Mython

I hope you asked if they stock a 'Davina' one, too, Rob.


----------



## bmichels

I will be very interested to hear *a comparaison between the AYRE qx-5 twenty and the DAVE*. 

Almost same price and booth including a good Headphone amp. (The qx-5 twenty being In addition ROON ready)


----------



## gnomen

For those interested in high quality recordings, Dutch outfit Sound Liaison http://www.soundliaison.com/ are having a summer sale.  All albums at all HD levels are reduced to €10.  Worth a look if you do not know them.  Great jazz, blues and world music ensemble performances.  Enjoy!


----------



## Christer

gnomen said:


> For those interested in high quality recordings, Dutch outfit Sound Liaison http://www.soundliaison.com/ are having a summer sale.  All albums at all HD levels are reduced to €10.  Worth a look if you do not know them.  Great jazz, blues and world music ensemble performances.  Enjoy!


 

 Am I doing something wrong ?
 Or are there only 15 titles to choose from?
 From  eClassical  I downloaded three  excellently played and realistically recorded Sibelius symphonies, all in all 80 minutes of glorious music, for 12 dollars and 38 cents,and it is one of my favourite go to sites for well recorded classical music.
 The 3rd, 6th and 7th symphonies  by Sibelius as recorded by BIS in both 24/96 stereo and mch for those who can play mch files, are imho exactly the kind of music and recordings needed to sort "the wheat from the chaff",when it comes to both DACs and the rest of a good HIFI system.
 This BIS album  is so far  my best bargain of 2016 closely followed by the 20 dollars I paid for Shostakovich´s 5th, 8th and 9th symphonies from the BSO.
 I also see that there are some DAVEs arriving on the second hand market. But still NOT at prices that would make me bite just yet.
 For me DAVE is still a very  overpriced product.
 By the way is there anybody here who knows when the Brits are formally leaving the EU?
 British pricing and 20% vat return on the price paid, might be just the thing that could tip it for me.
 All provided my next  DAVE audition via the new ML 15 A electrostatic speakers too and not only headphones, rings my bell, on really well recorded classical albums.
 Personally I couldn´t care less how EDM or any  other Electronica is reproduced via ANY DAC.


----------



## gnomen

christer said:


> Am I doing something wrong ?
> Or are there only 15 titles to choose from?
> From  eClassical  I downloaded three  excellently played and realistically recorded Sibelius symphonies, all in all 80 minutes of glorious music, for 12 dollars and 38 cents,and it is one of my favourite go to sites for well recorded classical music.
> The 3rd, 6th and 7th symphonies  by Sibelius as recorded by BIS in both 24/96 stereo.



Sound Liaison are a small boutique who only sell recordings they have made themselves. Their recordings are highly regarded for audiophile quality. 

The BIS Sibelius you mention are wonderful performances. Enjoy!


----------



## miketlse

christer said:


> By the way is there anybody here who knows when the Brits are formally leaving the EU?
> British pricing and 20% vat return on the price paid, might be just the thing that could tip it for me.


 
  
 The Prime Minister says that the government will not attempt to launch Article 50 before the end of the year. This launch of Article 50 then needs to be passed by Parliament, and only then will the two years of negotiations start.
  
 So I reckon that you will be able to complain for another two and a half years, at least.


----------



## JaZZ

christer said:


> For me DAVE is still a very  overpriced product.


 
  
 Can you list a few DACs in the same price category that sound better (to your ears) or some that sound equally good for much less?


----------



## Jawed

I wonder if there has been much argument over the Sound Liaison album:

"Tony Overwater and Bert van den Brink's 'Impromptu' was recorded simultaneously to two different recorders in PCM and DSD."


----------



## gnomen

May be the best album they have produced - artistically. I purchased the PCM version. Both my DACs convert DSD to PCM, so not much point me trying a comparison of formats.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

Can I connect Esoteric P-01 CD transport to the Dave?


----------



## iDesign

rob watts said:


> MQA is still under evaluation.
> 
> But since Dave is an FPGA DAC, and it has a spare expansion connector to the FPGA, we could choose to support any future developments - if I was convinced that it offered a credible improvement in sound quality. If a future development also offered an improvement in musicality then I would move "heaven and earth" to get it incorporated into my designs.
> 
> Rob


 

 Is this also true with the Hugo TT and Mojo?


----------



## Light - Man

louisarmstrong said:


> Can I connect Esoteric P-01 CD transport to the Dave?


 
  
 Louis, only if you have a Dave to begin with. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.......
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Would you consider the 2Qute? - I am tempted to buy one.
  
 Has anyone had the 2Qute before the Dave, if so, any comparisons would be great?
  
 P.S. I know the 2Qute has no amp section - I am talking mainly about using it in a main speaker system.


----------



## Christer

jazz said:


> Can you list a few DACs in the same price category that sound better (to your ears) or some that sound equally good for much less?


 

 Quick answer to your  question. Frankly no. But I have only auditioned  DAVE for a few hours and only via headphones so far.
 But I do own two  comparably priced DACs,the  Chord Hugo and the Benchmark DAC2 HGC and after  more than two years with both I can say that imho, both  have their slightly different  strengths and weaknesses. Hugo when working as intended without RF /Jitter or whatever it is that keeps interfering and makes it the most  unreliable and uneven HIFI product I have used in my system,has very good resolution,arguably more resolving of low level detail and acoustic cues, than the Benchmark. But  alas at the cost of sounding  thinner and more clinical  and  more digital and less full and less timbrally and tonally correct and realistic and enjoyable with some recordings. It really comes down to the recording in question which I prefer  of the two  DACs.
 All the above provided I first tape the rca cables firmly in place with duct tape, to make Hugo work at all via speakers instead of producing only loud hum.
 As far as DAVE  is concerned my complaints about pricing is more an observation of Highend HI FI  pricing in general.
 Chord is not the worst offender by far!
 There are many  other companies that prey upon vain customers much more greedily than Chord imho.
 HIGHEND HIFI is together with sportscars the male equivalent of fashion for women.
 It feeds upon vanity.
 And there is often little relation between price and actual performance.


----------



## bmichels

> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Can you list a few DACs in the same price category that sound better (to your ears) or some that sound equally good for much less?
> ...


 
 at $ 8500,  the *AYRE QX-5 twenty* may be a strong competitor to the DAVE  ?  time will tell...


----------



## miketlse

light - man said:


> Louis, only if you have a Dave to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have a Mojo, which I use for 3 use cases:
  

commuting, phone > Mojo > headphones
desktop computer > Mojo > headphones
desktop computer > Mojo > HiFi amplifier and speakers
  
 I am considering a 2Qute for no. 3 (and then maybe upgrade the hifi amp), but am wondering if it is better (but more expensive) to choose a Hugo TT plus TToby combination. Unfortunately there is no TToby feedback yet.


----------



## Christer

miketlse said:


> The Prime Minister says that the government will not attempt to launch Article 50 before the end of the year. This launch of Article 50 then needs to be passed by Parliament, and only then will the two years of negotiations start.
> 
> So I reckon that you will be able to complain for another two and a half years, at least.


 

 Oops, I had not realized it would be such a long process.
  
 But I also suspect that in two ,to two and a half  years, however good DAVE happens to be right now, there is bound to be some serious competition for it at lower prices than currently.
 According to some people  I know the interpolation/heavylifting done with  pre-programmed FPGAs in Dave could be even better and more  importantly,more cheaply done within a capable computer than in  a DAC  itself.
 Two years is a long,long time in digital audio.
 And even if that doesn´t happen I am sure that many of those who needed the latest instead of the most accurate DAC around, will have put their DAVEs on the secondhand market at more reasonable price for what it actually costs to produce  and research costs long since recovered.
 I have both ears to hear with and patience enough to wait for the really  sweet apples at decent costs when the vanity guys  have grown  tired of their new toys.
 My current amp combo cost  around 11000 dollars when released and I paid  3000 dollars for it.
 My speakers cost roughly the same when released.
 And I paid 2000 dollars second hand.
 Both still sound excellent.
 And to really put SQ in a really long  time perspective,my Linn Sondek LP12 with its Supex Mc cartridge that I bought in London in the early 70s still rivals any digital I have heard when it comes to accurately reproducing acoustic instruments in space and timbrally correct.
 A direct cut LP can still rival  any digital in those important aspects.
 The string sound in particular from the famous Sheffield Labs Prokofiev Romeo and Juliet Suite and the Wagner album are still after allt these years my references.
 I suspect that it was not by coincidence HIFI NEWS reviewed DAVE and a turntable in the same issue.


----------



## Light - Man

miketlse said:


> I have a Mojo, which I use for 3 use cases:
> 
> 
> commuting, phone > Mojo > headphones
> ...


 
  
 I remember a guy (or two) on the Mojo thread saying be thought the 2Qute was noticeably better than the Mojo and even the Hugo.
  
 I know that Torq was not too enthused by the 2Qute but we all know on HF that opinions often differ - heck some of us can't even agree on the time of day!


----------



## JaZZ

One important disadvantage of the 2Cute is the lack of a preamp function (→ volume control). So unless your power amp has adjustable input sensitivity (ideally via remote control) you'd have to use a separate preamp, which would take away some of the direct-path induced purity possible with the Hugo or Hugo TT – or an integrated amp with the same (if not more severe) loss of signal accuracy.


----------



## JaZZ

christer said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Can you list a few DACs in the same price category that sound better (to your ears) or some that sound equally good for much less?
> ...


 
  
 I halfways suspected that it was more of a generalization addressed to high-end gear prices than a specific criticism on DAVE. I wish you were more careful with your wording to avoid corresponding confusion. Not a big deal anyway!


----------



## Rob Watts

PC's are very restricted in what they can do for real time signals. You simply can't replicate the processing that Dave does in a PC - simply because PC processors are sequential serial devices with a very limited number of cores. When you are doing a doing a FIR filter (a tap) you need to read from memory the audio data; read from memory the coefficient data; multiply the numbers together;then read the accumulated data and add that to the previous multiplication; then save the result. Lots of things to do in sequence. With an FPGA you can do all of these things in parallel at once, so a single FIR tap can be accomplished within a single clock cycle (obviously pipelined) - you are not forced to do things in sequence.
  
 With Dave I have 166 dsp cores running, plus FPGA fabric to do a considerable amount of further processing. You simply can't do that in a PC. To give you another example - converting DSD into DoP. You need a quad core processor to do this manipulation in real time - otherwise you get drop-outs - but in a FPGA I could do this simple operation thousands of times over, and at much faster rates than DSD256.
  
 What some people do not understand is how capable FPGA's are and how widespread they are used - the backbone to the internet? FPGA's. Search engines? FPGA's. Why? because an FPGA is fantastic at doing fixed real time processing - it takes small die area, and can do complex operations with *very* low power. Mojo for example has 44 dsp cores, uses sophisticated filtering to 104 MHz, and noise shapes at this rate - but does all this whilst consuming only 0.45 W. There is no way any PC consuming huge amounts of power can do this.
  
 Intel last year acquired Altera (an FPGA company) for $16.7 billion because they understand that the future of processing is with FPGA's
  
 A second issue is not what you can do but how you can do it - it is not just about raw power, but how the filter algorithm is designed. I have put many thousands of hours and over twenty years improving and understanding how to make a transparent interpolation filter; and I am still learning things today.
  
 And a third point is that a DAC is not simply a data processing machine but it has got crucial analogue parts too. If I dropped the WTA requirement, I would still need the same FPGA in order to do the noise shaping and other functions.
  
 Rob


----------



## Christer

rob watts said:


> PC's are very restricted in what they can do for real time signals. You simply can't replicate the processing that Dave does in a PC - simply because PC processors are sequential serial devices with a very limited number of cores. When you are doing a doing a FIR filter (a tap) you need to read from memory the audio data; read from memory the coefficient data; multiply the numbers together;then read the accumulated data and add that to the previous multiplication; then save the result. Lots of things to do in sequence. With an FPGA you can do all of these things in parallel at once, so a single FIR tap can be accomplished within a single clock cycle (obviously pipelined) - you are not forced to do things in sequence.
> 
> With Dave I have 166 dsp cores running, plus FPGA fabric to do a considerable amount of further processing. You simply can't do that in a PC. To give you another example - converting DSD into DoP. You need a quad core processor to do this manipulation in real time - otherwise you get drop-outs - but in a FPGA I could do this simple operation thousands of times over, and at much faster rates than DSD256.
> 
> ...


 
 Very interesting to hear,
 "straight from the horse´s mouth."
  I am all ears.
 And always interested to learn as much as possible.
 I have absolutely zero personal  knowledge or expertize with these things, but every reason to believe you  really are maybe the best expert in the industry regarding these things.
 My only relative  strength as an evaluator of SQ in various products lies only in the facts that unlike many others here, I ONLY use acoustic music for reference and in some cases material where I was actually present at the sessions.
 Plus for my age, still pretty decent hearing.
 After all my moaning  about Dave´s pricing,I still have to confess that DAVE was THE BEST DAC I have ever auditioned via headphones.
 No other  digital product I have auditioned or owned has lifted so many  digital veils as DAVE did.
  
 But judging from your last paragraph above, could the fuller warmer/darker sometimes more timbrally realistic SQ I often hear from my Benchmark DAC2 via speakers especially, be a result of  better analogue parts than  little Hugo has?
 It sure seems that Hugo has a  very clear and obvious  edge over Benchmark in its data processing parts.
 But that doesn´t always seem to translate into better more realistic final SQ, when connected to amp and speakers.
 I do know that  superior analogue parts seems to be exactly what Benchmark  are claiming for their DACs,plus their inclusion of  galvanic isolation in their similar to Hugo priced product.
 I actually paid exactly  the same price for both.
 According to their latest firmware update/upgrade they seem to be doing it in the form of an Xilinx FPGA.
 Truly portable DAVE SQ in a DAC that could also equally well be connected to a HIFI system, now that would be quite something imho.


----------



## JaZZ

christer said:


> Truly portable DAVE SQ in a DAC that could also equally well be connected to a HIFI system, now that would be quite something imho.


 
  
 One can always dream (and I certainly wouldn't say no to the idea) – but that won't be realizable with today's state of technology (from what I understand according to Rob's reasonings). Just think of the Mojo's heat development during playback, and that's with much less taps than DAVE.


----------



## Sunya

rob watts said:


> PC's are very restricted in what they can do for real time signals.....


 
  
 The HQPlayer has a CPU offload option that permits the use of the CUDA cores in NVIDIA GPUs for real time parallel processing; the new Pascal GPU in Titan X has 3854 CUDA cores.
  
 http://www.nextplatform.com/2016/04/19/drilling-nvidias-pascal-gpu/


----------



## Hellvis

Looks amazing!...But that cost....that cost.


----------



## Deftone

i had to skip canjam london this year because i couldnt get the time off work. listening to dave was at the top of my list, maybe next year


----------



## Deftone

hellvis said:


> Looks amazing!...But that cost....that cost.


 
  
 id still love to hear it even if ill actually never be able to afford it. well i could but id have to save up for 7 years.
  
 get in on the lotto? lol


----------



## maxh22

sunya said:


> The HQPlayer has a CPU offload option that permits the use of the CUDA cores in NVIDIA GPUs for real time parallel processing; the new Pascal GPU in Titan X has 3854 CUDA cores.
> 
> http://www.nextplatform.com/2016/04/19/drilling-nvidias-pascal-gpu/




I was going to write this but you beat me too it. 

@Rob Watts wouldn't the the new Titan X with it's 3856 cores be more capable of reproducing the original signal than LX75 fpga with it's 166 cores?

I know this is like comparing apples to oranges since FPGA and ASIC are completely different but on paper the Titan X should Be the more capable processor.


----------



## ecwl

I think one of the issues is that even with HQPlayer and a multicore super desktop, you can at best upsample/filter to 32-bit/768kHz and then send it to a DAC with the current USB protocols. Whereas the Chord DAVE I believe first upsamples to 768kHz first and then goes to 12.2MHz next. And then the 12.2MHz signal gets noise-shaped and converted to 5-bit/104MHz. So until someone develops a protocol to transmit 5-bit/104MHz to the Pulse Array DAC off HQPlayer, you're still not approaching the Chord DAVE's FPGA capability.
  
 Similarly, I've seen people say that they can use HQPlayer do upconversion and then noise-shaping in DSD. Well, as far as I know, you can still only send 1-bit/DSD512 = 22.5MHz through the USB protocol. So 1-bit/22.5MHz is still a far cry to 5-bit/104MHz. Not to mention the difference in DAC design between Pulse Array and pure DSD/PWM.
  
 So as much as I see the potential advantages of using PC's and HQPlayer for more computationally intensive upsampling/digital filtering, I'm not sure if it's comparable yet. I'm guessing there's probably no theoretical reason why the USB protocol can't handle higher data rates for specific DACs. I'm surprised HQPlayer has not moved in this direction yet with a hardware partner...


----------



## Mython

maxh22 said:


> sunya said:
> 
> 
> > The HQPlayer has a CPU offload option that permits the use of the CUDA cores in NVIDIA GPUs for real time parallel processing; the new Pascal GPU in Titan X has 3854 CUDA cores.
> ...


 
  
  
  
 LOL - yeah, all very nice, and no doubt immensely powerful with oodles of potential, but rather taking Rob's remarks out of context, don't you think? (both of you) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Not meaning to put word's in Rob's mouth, but I consider it quite apparent that he was speaking of current, mass-market, released-&-widely-available, home computers; not speaking of bleeding-edge, barely-out-of-prototype, and not widely-available, novel high-end-server GPU chips.
  
 It wouldn't surprise me if there are also uber-powerful bleeding-edge, barely-out-of-prototype, and not widely-available, high-end FPGA chips in existence, too!
  
 .


----------



## miketlse

sunya said:


> The HQPlayer has a CPU offload option that permits the use of the CUDA cores in NVIDIA GPUs for real time parallel processing; the new Pascal GPU in Titan X has 3854 CUDA cores.
> 
> http://www.nextplatform.com/2016/04/19/drilling-nvidias-pascal-gpu/


 
  
 Oh well in that case, let us buy one of the pascal GPUs for the quoted $10,500, then add the double Xeon motherboard, then the noisy cooling fans and power supply, add a case etc.
 Then spend a few months writing the parallel processing program, and then test everything.
  
 @Sunya I think you will have persuaded a lot of people that the desktop sized DAVE, which runs silently without any user debugging or testing, is remarkably good value for money.


----------



## Sunya

Lol, the Pascal based Titan X is $1200; the lower spec GTX 1080 with only 2560 CUDA cores is $700, all readily available. And nothing stops you from using the CUDA cores from the previous Maxwell generation. My point is PCs are perfectly capable of parallel processing if the software is designed for it. The developer of the HQPlayer estimated he would need the Stratix V FPGA from Altera (he's more familiar with Altera than Xilinx) to run his algorithms. The Spartan 6 FPGAs is the cheap low end range from Xilinx BTW.
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/munich-2015-new-dacs-revealed-24426/index4.html#post429172


----------



## miketlse

sunya said:


> Lol, the Pascal based Titan X is $1200; the lower spec GTX 1080 with only 2560 CUDA cores is $700, all readily available. And nothing stops you from using the CUDA cores from the previous Maxwell generation. My point is PCs are perfectly capable of parallel processing if the software is designed for it. The developer of the HQPlayer estimated he would need the Stratix V FPGA from Altera (he's more familiar with Altera than Xilinx) to run his algorithms. The Spartan 6 FPGAs is the cheap low end range from Xilinx BTW.
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/munich-2015-new-dacs-revealed-24426/index4.html#post429172


 
  
 You linked to an article containing the details for the new Pascal GPUs that are only currently available in very limited quantities, with an estimated price of $10,500.
 How silly of me not to realise that you were referring to a completely different piece of hardware.


----------



## Sunya

http://www.geforce.com/hardware/10series/titan-x-pascal


----------



## Sunya

http://www.nvidia.com/object/what-is-gpu-computing.html


----------



## Mython

OK, great.
  
 Buy an Nvidia GPU.
  
 Now all you need to do is spend a lifetime learning what Rob has learned, and you can then sit down and type the necessary code to exceed the performance of Rob's pulse array and WTA filter.
  
 I don't think Rob will be concerned by people running HQ Player on an Nvidia GPU, even though it will probably sound very nice indeed.
  
  
 To each his own...


----------



## Sunya

I was addressing Rob's comment on PCs real time computing capabilities, wasn't meant to diminish Rob's accomplishment with DAVE.
  
 It seems a bunch of you have a problem with that, overly defensive Chord fanboys I presume.


----------



## miketlse

I remember reading about CUDA almost a decade ago, when I had a passing interest in trying to write an optimiser tool, using parallel processing.
  
 Then I realised that it was too much like hard work for the use case I was considering.
  
 Even if it is possible to write the program, to create a DAC using one of these graphics cards, with performance that equals DAVE, then you still have the problem that you will be playing your music files on a PC that uses graphics cards, which need a great amount of fan based cooling. 
 Actually you won't have to match the DAVE noise floor, because the ambient noise floor will be only -20 dB, because of the fan noise. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Let us know how you get on with this project.


----------



## miketlse

sunya said:


> I was addressing Rob's comment on PCs real time computing capabilities, wasn't meant to diminish Rob's accomplishment with DAVE.
> 
> It seems a bunch of you have a problem with that, overly defensive Chord fanboys I presume.


 
 No, I am not an overly defensive fan boy, but I have 35 years experience of writing software on-and-off, mostly to solve engineering problems.
 I do know that there is a big difference between what a programmer claims is technically possible, in an ideal world with no limitations on hardware, cost, programming time, etc, and what is feasible to solve real world problems.
  
 There are good reasons why the 'media PCs' that were talked about 10 years ago, did not become popular, and a big reason was fan noise.


----------



## Sunya

But the HQPlayer uses the CUDA cores for real time parallel processing, working on readily available consumer hardware; what ideal world?
  
 You have a problem with those using the PC as a source?


----------



## miketlse

sunya said:


> But the HQPlayer uses the CUDA cores for real time parallel processing, working on readily available consumer hardware; what ideal world?
> 
> You have a problem with those using the PC as a source?


 
 Will those GPUs be running in a completely passive cooling mode?


----------



## Mython

sunya said:


> I was addressing Rob's comment on PCs real time computing capabilities, wasn't meant to diminish Rob's accomplishment with DAVE.
> 
> It seems a bunch of you have a problem with that, overly defensive Chord fanboys I presume.


 
  
  
 LOL - no need to cast aspertions.
  
 If you care to look back, you will find one or two of these:       
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  ...indicating that the discussion is of a friendly nature.


----------



## halloweenman

Rob Watts, I have a question for you. I have read here that you use JRiver for playback. I currently use iTunes as player using macbook and osx and all my music is in apple lossless format. Given that iTunes provides bit perfect playback for my music do you think its possible to improve sound quality by trying another player such as JRiver or Audirvana? I find it puzzling that Audirvana has two bit perfect integer modes that it claims sound different - mode 1 more transparent with better soundstage, and mode 2 that is warmer. How can this be if they are both bit perfect? Thanks.


----------



## Rob Watts

I am afraid I have no experience of iTunes, perhaps somebody else can comment?
  
 I recall that we did have a problem with a iPhone on initial testing - and what we thought was a bit perfect file did actually have some gain applied, so it was not bit perfect. But that could have been a settings issue.
  
 Rob


----------



## adyc

I have used HQPlayer before. I don't know what the fuss about this player is. No matter what settings I have used (and I have tried many), the sound coming out from HQPlayer feeding into a few expensive DACs I had before are no improvements.

As mentioned before, after I got DAVE, I am completely happy. I can say DAVE's algorithms beats the hell out of HQPlayer. Furthermore, DAVE is a complete package (software and hardware) and comes in such a small form factor. I can't think of any highend Hifi equipments are so reasonably priced and such extraordinary sound quality.


----------



## BirdManOfCT

OK, where can I buy DAVE in the US? The Chord website lists just one distributor for the US and that distributor's website says they don't sell to the public. Hmm.


----------



## pkcpga

birdmanofct said:


> OK, where can I buy DAVE in the US? The Chord website lists just one distributor for the US and that distributor's website says they don't sell to the public. Hmm.



Not sure where your located but my dealer in Nashua New Hampshire has it and other chords DACs as well as there's no sales tax in New Hampshire great bonus a purchase that size.
http://www.avtherapy.net

There are a few dealers in NYC that carry it also but high sales tax on an item like that.


----------



## Beolab

OT: 

As i mentioned earlier last week, that i would receive the newly released DHC 5N Silver cable Prion4S , including some other goodies: 



Prion4S Silver adapter: 


As a bonus Peter made a very special cable: 

Custom made: 

Based on the Flagella 11 AWG speaker cable he made an banana - 4pin adapter for my Moon 600i amp instead of my Silver Dragon adapter i am using today: 



And i can just say in a short, that i have not came across anything better! These cables is a huge leap forward in SQ over any other headphone cable i have heard. 
My system came more to life, and this is the cream on the cake, or the last fine tuning. 

For more in dept impressions please PM me:


----------



## Currawong

halloweenman said:


> Rob Watts, I have a question for you. I have read here that you use JRiver for playback. I currently use iTunes as player using macbook and osx and all my music is in apple lossless format. Given that iTunes provides bit perfect playback for my music do you think its possible to improve sound quality by trying another player such as JRiver or Audirvana? I find it puzzling that Audirvana has two bit perfect integer modes that it claims sound different - mode 1 more transparent with better soundstage, and mode 2 that is warmer. How can this be if they are both bit perfect? Thanks.


 
  
 If all your music is the same bit depth and sample rate, and that is what is set in Audio Midi Set-up for output to the DAVE, then it will be bit perfect. If you have a mix of high res files, then it wont, because OSX will re-sample to whatever Audio Midi Set-up was set to at the start. 
  
 One advantage of the audiophile players is that they match the output to the DAC to the file, so if you go from playing a 16/44.1 to a 24/192 file then the program will switch the output. As I understand it, the sonic advantage they are supposed to have involves taking complete control of the USB output to the DAC, preventing the system using it. That reduces the amount of unnecessary interruptions and processing done by the USB sending and receiving chips, and the amount of noise those circuits generate and dump into the electronics. Audirvana has a white paper on their site about it from memory.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

I do have the old version of the Titan X, in SLI too, but I am not sure they would do any Hifi or Headfi system any good given the heat and fan noise, even if they are capable of parallel processing.


----------



## rkt31

let's be clear. hqplayer is only a processor while dave is much more than a processor. the hardware which converts the processed stream to analog is equally important which in dave is very unique. I do not agree to the claim that hqplayer needs a FPGA for heavy processing capabilities of it. may be the people converting pcm to dsd512 that too in multichannel in hqplayer might need more processing power but that is not applicable for dave as it is 2 channel device and imho will not benefit from pcm to dsd conversion ( I have not experienced but imho people converting pcm to dsd via hqplayer might have penchant for certain flavor of sound) I have lenovo laptop with i7 4th gen processor which only uses 7% processing power while upsampling 16 bit 44.1khz to 24 bit 192khz using sinc filter( sinc uses most processing power) so for a 2 channel pcm to pcm routine even a normal laptop is sufficient indicating that hqplayer is just another resampler with more options. having said that I found hqplayer resampler much better than j river, foobar etc. coming to dave, imho it has much more sophisticated upsampling and noise filtering which can't be matched by hqplayer as there are many factors. hqplayer has the limitation of highest sampling rate, number of taps and accuracy of volume control as compare to dave. dave upsamples and filters at much higher rate and volume control is also much more accurate as it is embedded in the processing of dave ( more can be told by Rob). so the kind of processing dave has , hqplayer currently does not have .as mentioned earlier, before conversion to analog ,the digital stream has much more resolution and data rate in dave which is in mhz and might not be supported by the current pc hardware . also even if hqplayer author redesigns the algorithm, this processing in mhz can't be streamed in real time due to limitations of parallel processing with current processors in pcs .


----------



## iDesign

halloweenman said:


> Rob Watts, I have a question for you. I have read here that you use JRiver for playback. I currently use iTunes as player using macbook and osx and all my music is in apple lossless format. Given that iTunes provides bit perfect playback for my music do you think its possible to improve sound quality by trying another player such as JRiver or Audirvana? I find it puzzling that Audirvana has two bit perfect integer modes that it claims sound different - mode 1 more transparent with better soundstage, and mode 2 that is warmer. How can this be if they are both bit perfect? Thanks.


 

 Audirvanna and Roon will provide improved sound quality. I much prefer Audirvanna for a number of reasons on a Macintosh (specifically its Audio Unit, AFP, iTunes support etc. etc.)


----------



## halloweenman

Rob Watts, thanks for your reply. Do you agree that if two software players are both playing back bit perfect from the same laptop/setup that both can actually sound different? Or should they sound the same as they are both bit perfect? Thanks.


----------



## halloweenman

idesign, did you do any ab blind testing?


----------



## halloweenman

currawong, thanks, yes those are my settings for itunes osx bit perfect playback. what i am really getting at is - does the things audirvana claims to do actually make a difference to sound quality if bit perfect? for example, will loading entire song into memory actually make any difference to sq? has anyone done ab blind testing itunes vs audurvana? i can appreciate the benefit of the software switching sample rates.

how can audirvana playback two different versions that sound different (integer mode 1 and 2) of the same bit perfect song?


----------



## Rob Watts

halloweenman said:


> Rob Watts, thanks for your reply. Do you agree that if two software players are both playing back bit perfect from the same laptop/setup that both can actually sound different? Or should they sound the same as they are both bit perfect? Thanks.


 
 I think it depends upon the DAC, the OS, and the programs.
  
 So if the DAC is not galvanically isolated, then RF noise can leach into the DAC, and hence make it sound harder; the RF noise levels is affected by processor activity, so an inefficient program _could_ sound worse than an efficient one; in principle at least.
  
 A second point is that it depends upon the OS - Windows drivers that come with Chord DAC's ensure that it is bit perfect at the DAC with Windows - so if the DAC gets a packet error, data is resent; but driverless OS (iOS, Linux, Andriod) do not have this virtue. So if processor activity is such that time is not available to transmit on the USB, then you will get lost data - but Windows guarantees that this does not happen. That's the reason that with DoP DSD you need a very capable processor otherwise you hear occasional mutes; but with Windows I have never experienced this even at DSD515. So again this is how an efficient program _could _be better; but not with Windows.
  
 With Dave, and using a battery powered non grounded Windows lap-top, where all the evidence I have is that it is completely and perfectly isolated from the lap-top RF noise wise, and is guaranteed to be bit perfect at the DAC, I would be very surprised if there were differences on any capable bit perfect program.
  
 Rob


----------



## Mark UX

rob watts said:


> I think it depends upon the DAC, the OS, and the programs.
> 
> So if the DAC is not galvanically isolated, then RF noise can leach into the DAC, and hence make it sound harder; the RF noise levels is affected by processor activity, so an inefficient program _could_ sound worse than an efficient one; in principle at least.
> 
> ...


 
  
 "With Dave, and using a battery powered non grounded Windows lap-top, where all the evidence I have is that it is completely and perfectly isolated from the lap-top RF noise wise, and is guaranteed to be bit perfect at the DAC, I would be very surprised if there were differences on any capable bit perfect program."
  
@Rob Watts, above statement also applies to 2 Qute? (which is also galvanically isolated)


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes sure - 2 Qute, Hugo TT and Dave have the same USB decoder and galvanic isolation.
  
 Rob


----------



## halloweenman

thank you Rob, much appreciated.


----------



## gnomen

currawong said:


> If all your music is the same bit depth and sample rate, and that is what is set in Audio Midi Set-up for output to the DAVE, then it will be bit perfect. If you have a mix of high res files, then it wont, because OSX will re-sample to whatever Audio Midi Set-up was set to at the start.
> 
> One advantage of the audiophile players is that they match the output to the DAC to the file, so if you go from playing a 16/44.1 to a 24/192 file then the program will switch the output. As I understand it, the sonic advantage they are supposed to have involves taking complete control of the USB output to the DAC, preventing the system using it. That reduces the amount of unnecessary interruptions and processing done by the USB sending and receiving chips, and the amount of noise those circuits generate and dump into the electronics. Audirvana has a white paper on their site about it from memory.


 

 Currawong makes an important point.  On a Mac Audio Midi will resample the files unless you are using an audiophile player.  I don't know about other players, but Pure Music does this, and even has a 'hog' mode to ensure the hifi signal is kept separate from general computer sound output.


----------



## christian u

I concur, those downloads are worth a listen. The sound stage is incredible. This is quality above quantity. And the albums have been mixed on HD800 and AKG 702 wich explains why they sound so good on cans.
  
 Quote:


gnomen said:


> For those interested in high quality recordings, Dutch outfit Sound Liaison http://www.soundliaison.com/ are having a summer sale.  All albums at all HD levels are reduced to €10.  Worth a look if you do not know them.  Great jazz, blues and world music ensemble performances.  Enjoy!


 
  
  


christer said:


> Am I doing something wrong ?
> Or are there only 15 titles to choose from?
> From  eClassical  I downloaded three  excellently played and realistically recorded Sibelius symphonies, all in all 80 minutes of glorious music, for 12 dollars and 38 cents,and it is one of my favourite go to sites for well recorded classical music.
> The 3rd, 6th and 7th symphonies  by Sibelius as recorded by BIS in both 24/96 stereo and mch for those who can play mch files, are imho exactly the kind of music and recordings needed to sort "the wheat from the chaff",when it comes to both DACs and the rest of a good HIFI system.
> ...


----------



## Jawed

rob watts said:


> When you are doing a doing a FIR filter (a tap) you need to read from memory the audio data; read from memory the coefficient data; multiply the numbers together;then read the accumulated data and add that to the previous multiplication; then save the result. Lots of things to do in sequence. With an FPGA you can do all of these things in parallel at once, so a single FIR tap can be accomplished within a single clock cycle (obviously pipelined) - you are not forced to do things in sequence.



This discussion has sent me rummaging and I came across: Efficient Convolution without Input/Output Delay

A motivation for this technique is room simulation which can involve many seconds worth of impulse response, resulting in a convolution using 10s or 100s of thousands taps. 

Direct multiply-accumulate convolution is extremely expensive in terms of mathematical operations. It is very low in latency.

Ordinary FFT/inverse-FFT based techniques result in a huge delay between the input and output. The delay is reduced by working in blocks. More and smaller blocks result in more mathematical operations.

The paper presents a hybrid of multiply-accumulate with block-based FFT processing to substantially reduce the mathematical cost, while at the same time keeping a reasonable delay. Fig 6 is quite an eye-opener.

Is this the technique you've implemented for convolution, Rob? Or is this technique too heavy on internal bandwidth/memory to be applicable in an FPGA?


----------



## iDesign

halloweenman said:


> idesign, did you do any ab blind testing?


 

 Yes, the improvement over CoreAudio is profound. Damien Plisson has been great and very responsive in helping me configure Audirvana as the hub for my audio library which has tens of thousands of albums that were initially encoded several years ago using ALAC (I have one of the largest private collections of rare and out of print classical music in the US). Roon is a fine choice as well but it does not support AudioUnit plugins for an EQ and its options to access music files from a network server was not satisfactory for my needs.


----------



## halloweenman

thanks idesign. i downloaded and tried audirvana and did a little testing using a Naim Dac V1 (my main system uses hugo tt) i managed to get hold of as this has very useful bit perfect testing technology licensed from Audiophilleo. i did a quick listening test and thought audirvana had better separation and soundstaging than itunes. i then did the bit perfect test. in a nutshell itunes passed when os x dac v1 midi setup sample and bit rate were the same as the file being played back in itunes. however it failed when os x dac v1 midi setup sample and bitbrate were different. so verifies comments made. audirvana passed all bit perfect tests regardless of os x dac v1 midi setup. what was interesting was that audirvana was bit perfect for both integer mode 1 and 2 even though they are supposed to sound different. mode 1 more transparent with better soundstaging, mode 2 warmer. how can this be?!

this testing has given me a problem in using itunes with my hugo tt playing back apple lossless as it will never be bit perfect to the tt. the os x tt dac midi setup bit rate for tt is 32 and cannot be changed. the bit rate for my apple lossless files is 16. itunes/os x converts these somehow to 32 bit before sending to dac - thus tt dac no longer gets a bit perfect file. i dont believe audirvava does this and sends 16 bit file to tt dac.

audirvana is excellent. stable, runs like clockwork, easy to use, and sounds superb and does what it says.


----------



## Mavwong

str-1 said:


> Thanks, romaz, for that very welcome reassurance. Now to get my hands one. Cheers


 
  
 Not sure this has been covered as I just read till page 243. You can actually get a polarity corrected UK to US converter if that matters.


----------



## Rob Watts

jawed said:


> This discussion has sent me rummaging and I came across: Efficient Convolution without Input/Output Delay
> 
> A motivation for this technique is room simulation which can involve many seconds worth of impulse response, resulting in a convolution using 10s or 100s of thousands taps.
> 
> ...


 
  
 No I always use the direct form. Within an FPGA generally one is SRAM memory limited not multiplier limited (plenty of DSP's and fabric to make your own dsp cores). Moreover, if I need lower multiplier count, I use a folded FIR, which halves the number of multipliers but gives the identical result. The direct form absolutely guarantees perfect transient reconstruction accuracy too under all conditions.
  
 With WTA filters the group delay is determined by the filter needs; you simply can't remove the delay without affecting the filter performance and hence SQ.
  
 Rob


----------



## Mavwong

I myself come from Vega. I won't classify Vega as colored, if you use exact clock settings and filter 1 (PCM). It's the most transparent setting for Vega. Upon hearing the Dave personally, I go for it straight and never need to turn back since.
  
 Quote:


theppd said:


> Thank you!
> I thought so regarding the Analog...
> I plan to connect the DAC to my AMP (McIntosh MC275) directly which I do now. Balanced or not is not a major factor for me. I enjoy both at the moment from the Vega while both the amp and DAC are balanced but sound great on RCA or XLR.
> The speakers I use are the legendary Yamaha NS-2000. Which are capable of showing all the transparency the rest of the chain has as well as any digital noises and harshness of it. While I already have some beauty of the tubes in the system I would prefer to avoid any rounding and smoothing from the DAC part. Extreme transparency and pace is what I'm looking for.


----------



## rkt31

does anybody have recorded clips of dave's analog out ? sometimes back there was a link of such clips of many other DACs but that link was deleted later on.


----------



## rgs9200m

rkt31 said:


> does anybody have recorded clips of dave's analog out ? sometimes back there was a link of such clips of many other DACs but that link was deleted later on.


 
 There are youtube clips of DAVE playing through speakers, like this one:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGZ2_Lwjj3Y


----------



## rkt31

@rgs9200m, I have heard those clips. the magic of dave is clearly evident even in the YouTube video but I wanted those recorded clips of various other DACs compared in that link. even a clip of Dave only would be welcome.


----------



## Mython

Kind of a weird thing, don't you think?
  
 All the benefits of DAVEs digital-analogue conversion being reconverted by some generic camcorder ADC chip, just so it can be posted on youtube.


----------



## rkt31

@Mython, you are right. actually dave has been elusive in India. it is next to impossible to audition one in India due to its price. they demand full advance payment to procure one from uk. I have heard those YouTube videos. I though even with so low tech equipment the dave's special qualities are evident . in that video it feels as if you are listening to some live performance.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

It's true - I played that video on my laptop speakers and my wife in the other room said, "Wow, the upstream equipment in that recording of a recording is really exceptional!"


----------



## rgs9200m

Well, it's funny but I detected the flavor of the Hugo TT relative to other DACs via youtube clips of it actually played through my regular Hugo.


----------



## Mython

It just goes to show what a peculiar (and still very little-understood, relatively-speaking) thing human psychoacoustics can be.


----------



## ecwl

rkt31 said:


> @Mython, you are right. actually dave has been elusive in India. it is next to impossible to audition one in India due to its price. they demand full advance payment to procure one from uk. I have heard those YouTube videos. I though even with so low tech equipment the dave's special qualities are evident . in that video it feels as if you are listening to some live performance.


 
 My take is that if you can afford Chord DAVE, once you've heard it, you'll buy it. So the need for audition is psychological.
 One approach would be to negotiate with the local dealer. If you're willing to pay them MSRP or slightly discounted MSRP, try negotiating with them to put the dealer/distributor price as a deposit (which is probably 30-40% off MSRP). If you like it when you audition the product, you can pay them the rest for the full MSRP and Chord DAVE is yours. If you don't like it, the dealer can try to sell it to someone else at whatever price they want and once it's sold, you can get your money back. I suspect your local dealer would not mind this kind of a deal since there's virtually no downside to them. And worst case scenario, you'll get your money back in a few months once they've sold the unit they brought in for you. Of course, you could also just book a flight somewhere else and audition the DAVE and take a nice vacation...


----------



## Toolman

Have my Hugo and Mojo, tried to resist DAVE (due mainly to the premium), then I auditioned it. Now I am on the first of my 6 months self imposed fasting to get it.

 To my ears, it is that good for me to even placing my order


----------



## musicday

Hi Rob,
What paint/coat are you using to make Dave's aluminium body black? My concern is that even in the high end watches PVD will eventually peel off.
Thank you.


----------



## Toolman

musicday said:


> Hi Rob,
> What paint/coat are you using to make Dave's aluminium body black? My concern is that even in the high end watches PVD will eventually peel off.
> Thank you.


 
  
 Electro Anodizing?


----------



## paulchiu

toolman said:


> Have my Hugo and Mojo, tried to resist DAVE (due mainly to the premium), then I auditioned it. Now I am on the first of my 6 months self imposed fasting to get it.
> 
> To my ears, it is that good for me to even placing my order


 
  
 Good luck on the fasting, LOL.
 How do you like your Mojo vs your Hugo, BTW?
  
 paul


----------



## Rob Watts

musicday said:


> Hi Rob,
> What paint/coat are you using to make Dave's aluminium body black? My concern is that even in the high end watches PVD will eventually peel off.
> Thank you.


 
 In common with all of Chord's products it is hard anodised. Which means the surface aluminium is oxidised with a die added which makes it as hard as ceramic. So no paint to chip off; but if you cut into the anodising, bare aluminium will be exposed. Take care with it and it will look perfect for life.
  
 Rob


----------



## Jawed

I'm hoping to listen to DAVE at CanJam this weekend. After I've listened to DAVE, I will listen to Focal Utopia and Sennheiser HE 1. I'm hoping that the latter two might distract me from DAVE, so that I don't go out and buy one straight away.

Alternatively, I could just ignore DAVE.


----------



## Toolman

rob watts said:


> musicday said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Rob,
> ...




@Rob...and idea if it is Mil-spec II or Mil-spec III anodizing?


----------



## smial1966

What an extremely peculiar question. PVD is bonded to the host surface at a molecular level and highly unlikely to ever peel off, so goodness only knows what usage scenario Musicday has for a black DAVE. Perhaps he works at CERN and is worried about stray quarks and other nano-molecular particles disrupting the pristine finish of his DAVE?!? 




musicday said:


> Hi Rob,
> What paint/coat are you using to make Dave's aluminium body black? My concern is that even in the high end watches PVD will eventually peel off.
> Thank you.


----------



## smial1966

If you don't manage to audition DAVE at London CanJam this weekend, I'll have my unit at the 2017 UK Head-Fi Meet this April in Milton Keynes. It's a FREE event and all Head-Fiers (and guests) are welcome. Just click on the link at the bottom of this paragraph for more information.  

http://www.head-fi.org/t/816392/2017-uk-head-fi-meet-april-2nd-milton-keynes




jawed said:


> I'm hoping to listen to DAVE at CanJam this weekend. After I've listened to DAVE, I will listen to Focal Utopia and Sennheiser HE 1. I'm hoping that the latter two might distract me from DAVE, so that I don't go out and buy one straight away.
> 
> Alternatively, I could just ignore DAVE.


----------



## musicday

smial1966 said:


> What an extremely peculiar question. PVD is bonded to the host surface at a molecular level and highly unlikely to ever peel off, so goodness only knows what usage scenario Musicday has for a black DAVE. Perhaps he works at CERN and is worried about stray quarks and other nano-molecular particles disrupting the pristine finish of his DAVE?!?
> 
> All PVD will scratch in time and show signs of wear.The only thing that doesn't scratch is the Rolex patented Cerachrom.
> https://watch-wiki.org/index.php?title=Cerachrom_bezel
> ...


----------



## ecwl

musicday said:
			
		

> > Anyone using Dave to watch movies,headphones or speakers?


 
 Sure. Just watched the new Rogue One movie trailer via YouTube/Oppo Blu-ray Player coax S/PDIF into my Chord DAVE.
 I think Rob Watts like watching movies with Chord DAVE.
  
 My stereo/TV setup is in the living room so no surround sound for me which makes Chord DAVE perfect. (I cover up the TV for serious music listening.) Sounds great for movies too.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

> Originally Posted by *musicday* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Anyone using Dave to watch movies,headphones or speakers?


 
  
 Yes.  All the time.  It is spectacular.


----------



## bmichels

jawed said:


> I'm hoping to listen to DAVE at CanJam this weekend. After I've listened to DAVE, I will listen to Focal Utopia and Sennheiser HE 1. I'm hoping that the latter two might distract me from DAVE, so that I don't go out and buy one straight
> 
> Alternatively, I could just ignore DAVE.




Or... You could felt In love wIth the combo DAVE+Utopia which Is supposed to offer very good synergy. Then you are really In trouble ....


----------



## Toolman

bmichels said:


> Or... You could felt In love wIth the combo DAVE+Utopia which Is supposed to offer very good synergy. Then you are really In trouble ....


 

 My kidneys just twitched...guessed they are a bit worried having to make way for my DAVE & Utopia


----------



## STR-1

bmichels said:


> Or... You could felt In love wIth the combo DAVE+Utopia which Is supposed to offer very good synergy. Then you are really In trouble ....




I was at CanJam earlier today. I listened to both the Utopia and the Elear, and both were great. The Focal rep said they should be available in the UK towards the end of September and I am looking forward to getting a loan on both to try at home with my Dave. Unfortunately, there wasn't an opportunity to hear them with the Dave at CanJam. Cheers


----------



## STR-1

Rob, can I ask you a question about mains input to the Dave. I currently have on loan a mains regenerator that is currently putting out a steady 240 volts into my Dave but that can be adjusted up or down in one volt increments. I have recently read an article on UK mains that says that audio equipment will run best at about 230 volts. Would that hold true for the Dave or is it best to just leave things at 240 volts. I can't say I have noticed any obvious audio difference in taking it down to 235 volts compared to the regulated 240 volts, but generally I do find the sound quality better, cleaner with the regenerator than without it. Thanks for any thoughts on this.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

str-1 said:


> Rob, can I ask you a question about mains input to the Dave. I currently have on loan a mains regenerator that is currently putting out a steady 240 volts into my Dave but that can be adjusted up or down in one volt increments. I have recently read an article on UK mains that says that audio equipment will run best at about 230 volts. Would that hold true for the Dave or is it best to just leave things at 240 volts. I can't say I have noticed any obvious audio difference in taking it down to 235 volts compared to the regulated 240 volts, but generally I do find the sound quality better, cleaner with the regenerator than without it. Thanks for any thoughts on this.


 
  
 Out of interest, which regenerator are you using?


----------



## STR-1

bigfatpaulie said:


> Out of interest, which regenerator are you using?



PS Audio P3.


----------



## supabayes

str-1 said:


> I was at CanJam earlier today. I listened to both the Utopia and the Elear, and both were great. The Focal rep said they should be available in the UK towards the end of September and I am looking forward to getting a loan on both to try at home with my Dave. Unfortunately, there wasn't an opportunity to hear them with the Dave at CanJam. Cheers




Thanks for confirming Sep availability. My dealer told me the same thing. The SQ and look of the Utopia with black DAVE will be gorgeous. Looking forward to the combo.


----------



## AlanYWM

str-1 said:


> Rob, can I ask you a question about mains input to the Dave. I currently have on loan a mains regenerator that is currently putting out a steady 240 volts into my Dave but that can be adjusted up or down in one volt increments. I have recently read an article on UK mains that says that audio equipment will run best at about 230 volts. Would that hold true for the Dave or is it best to just leave things at 240 volts. I can't say I have noticed any obvious audio difference in taking it down to 235 volts compared to the regulated 240 volts, *but generally I do find the sound quality better, cleaner with the regenerator than without it*. Thanks for any thoughts on this.


 
  
 I agree. For me, it was obvious the sound on the Dave improved with a power re-generator. There was better clarity and focus.


----------



## analogmusic

toolman said:


> Have my Hugo and Mojo, tried to resist DAVE (due mainly to the premium), then I auditioned it. Now I am on the first of my 6 months self imposed fasting to get it.
> 
> To my ears, it is that good for me to even placing my order


 
  
 Same here
  
 Have Hugo and Mojo, then auditioned Dave against Hugo TT
  
 Dave is very audibly and musically superior to Mojo, Hugo and Hugo TT, 
  
 Do not audition a Dave until you have the money for it. You have been warned !


----------



## analogmusic

ecwl said:


> My take is that if you can afford Chord DAVE, once you've heard it, you'll buy it. So the need for audition is psychological.
> One approach would be to negotiate with the local dealer. If you're willing to pay them MSRP or slightly discounted MSRP, try negotiating with them to put the dealer/distributor price as a deposit (which is probably 30-40% off MSRP). If you like it when you audition the product, you can pay them the rest for the full MSRP and Chord DAVE is yours. If you don't like it, the dealer can try to sell it to someone else at whatever price they want and once it's sold, you can get your money back. I suspect your local dealer would not mind this kind of a deal since there's virtually no downside to them. And worst case scenario, you'll get your money back in a few months once they've sold the unit they brought in for you. Of course, you could also just book a flight somewhere else and audition the DAVE and take a nice vacation...


 
  No need for all this hassle, just buy it.
  
 Dave is much much superior to Hugo, Hugo TT and Mojo....
  
 For me once I heard Dave against Hugo TT, there was no going back....


----------



## Rob Watts

str-1 said:


> Rob, can I ask you a question about mains input to the Dave. I currently have on loan a mains regenerator that is currently putting out a steady 240 volts into my Dave but that can be adjusted up or down in one volt increments. I have recently read an article on UK mains that says that audio equipment will run best at about 230 volts. Would that hold true for the Dave or is it best to just leave things at 240 volts. I can't say I have noticed any obvious audio difference in taking it down to 235 volts compared to the regulated 240 volts, but generally I do find the sound quality better, cleaner with the regenerator than without it. Thanks for any thoughts on this.


 
  
 One of the benefits of SMPS is that it will work exactly the same with all mains voltages and frequencies - so when I go to Japan (100v) USA (110-120) UK (240) Europe (220-230) Dave on headphones sounds the same.
  
 The actual PSU used will work from 90 to 263 V and 47 to 440 Hz. So don't worry about the actual voltage.
  
 Rob


----------



## Sunya

http://www.avhub.com.au/features/hi-fi/chord-electronics---john-franks-interview-395781


----------



## Mython

sunya said:


> http://www.avhub.com.au/features/hi-fi/chord-electronics---john-franks-interview-395781


 
  
  
 LOL - thankyou for posting that, and much of it is still relevant, but you do realise the interview is from 2014? _Hugo _hadn't even been released, at that point, and *poor DAVE was barely a twinkle in Rob's eye! *




  
  
 This video, from 2015, covers some of the same ground, and more:


----------



## STR-1

rob watts said:


> One of the benefits of SMPS is that it will work exactly the same with all mains voltages and frequencies - so when I go to Japan (100v) USA (110-120) UK (240) Europe (220-230) Dave on headphones sounds the same.
> 
> The actual PSU used will work from 90 to 263 V and 47 to 440 Hz. So don't worry about the actual voltage.
> 
> Rob



Thanks, Rob.


----------



## raypin

Mmm.....am excited. Receiving my Dave in a couple of days. Gave my TT its eviction notice. Bittersweet moment.


----------



## Deftone

raypin said:


> Mmm.....am excited. Receiving my Dave in a couple of days. Gave my TT its eviction notice. Bittersweet moment.


 
  
 theres a spare room here that it can live in


----------



## Toolman

raypin said:


> Mmm.....am excited. Receiving my Dave in a couple of days. Gave my TT its eviction notice. Bittersweet moment.


 

 Where can I submit my adoption paper?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 

 Congrats...can't wait for my turn to come soon


----------



## LouisArmstrong

raypin said:


> Mmm.....am excited. Receiving my Dave in a couple of days. Gave my TT its eviction notice. Bittersweet moment.


 

 Welcome to the real Hifi world.


----------



## supabayes

raypin said:


> Mmm.....am excited. Receiving my Dave in a couple of days. Gave my TT its eviction notice. Bittersweet moment.




Congrats. Black or silver DAVE? I absolutely dig the black one. Mine is delivering in Sep with Utopia for an all black combination.


----------



## raypin

Mmmm....Dave, silver surfer edition. Mordor Black not available.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

This just in:
  
 http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-gift-for-music-lovers-who-have-it-all-a-personal-utility-pole-1471189463
  
  
 Not sure by how much it would improve the Dave.


----------



## raypin

Mmm.....private transformers are fairly common here. Not for audiophile reasons but because the smaller utilities does not have sufficient supply specially after a devastating typhoon.


----------



## onsionsi

> This just in:
> 
> http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-gift-for-music-lovers-who-have-it-all-a-personal-utility-pole-1471189463
> 
> ...


 
LouisArmstrong Can you post this article here as i have a problem to read it


----------



## Deftone

louisarmstrong said:


> This just in:
> 
> http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-gift-for-music-lovers-who-have-it-all-a-personal-utility-pole-1471189463
> Not sure by how much it would improve the Dave.




“It’s completely beyond my understanding,” says his wife, Reiko, 57. “But if I take it away from him, he will lose the motivation to live.”

I think is true for many of us here.


----------



## raypin

mmm....after braving the hellish road traffic of Manila and torrential monsoon rains, I finally brought home my DAVE................and auditioned the DAVE for the very first time. The track: God Save the Queen (London Symphony Orchestra).......my reaction: Blimey, bloody hell-brilliant!.....God Save the Queen! lol!


----------



## JaZZ

Welcome to the Club, _raypin! _


----------



## raypin

Mmmm...yeah, thanks for the welcome mat! This DAVE is an apex predator of the amp dac world. My former amp dac, the Chord TT? A minnow.


----------



## paulchiu

raypin said:


> Mmmm...yeah, thanks for the welcome mat! This DAVE is an apex predator of the amp dac world. My former amp dac, the Chord TT? A minnow.


 
  
 It gets better in a few days.  Get some DSD files, they sound brilliant on the DAVE.
  
 paul


----------



## raypin

Mmm....will do. I'm still in the read-the-manual phase. Lol! So, which button starts World War III?


----------



## miketlse

raypin said:


> Mmm....will do. I'm still in the read-the-manual phase. Lol! So, which button starts World War III?


 
  
 Ease yourself into the DAVE experience, pour a GnT and then listen to some Test Match Special podcasts. They will only be MP3, but I bet they will sound out of this world.


----------



## x RELIC x

Just ordered one of the only two Focal Utopias in Canada. Can't wait to try them with the DAVE.


----------



## paulchiu

x relic x said:


> Just ordered one of the only two Focal Utopias in Canada. Can't wait to try them with the DAVE.


 
  
 Did they give you ETA?


----------



## x RELIC x

paulchiu said:


> Did they give you ETA?




Thursday.


----------



## paulchiu

x relic x said:


> Thursday.


 
  
 Fantastic.  Love to know how it sounds with the DAVE.
  
 paul


----------



## pkcpga

x relic x said:


> Just ordered one of the only two Focal Utopias in Canada. Can't wait to try them with the DAVE.




Would love to know your opinion on it with the Dave. Congrats


----------



## x RELIC x

paulchiu said:


> Fantastic.  Love to know how it sounds with the DAVE.
> 
> paul





pkcpga said:


> Would love to know your opinion on it with the Dave. Congrats




I'm _just now_ getting used to the sound of the DAVE. I fear I may have information overload if the Utopia reviews are anything to go by. I also have the ETHER Flow on order. :blink:


----------



## raypin

Mmmm.....Dave, Utopia and,soon, the Flow. You are on a roll! Lol!


----------



## LouisArmstrong

I think a fine speaker system like the Focal Utopias would do the Dave justice. Sure it sounds great with headphones too, but imo only in a speaker system can reveal Dave's full potential. Which amps are you using?


----------



## x RELIC x

louisarmstrong said:


> I think a fine speaker system like the Focal Utopias would do the Dave justice. Sure it sounds great with headphones too, but imo only in a speaker system can reveal Dave's full potential. Which amps are you using?




Who, me? I'm in the camp that wants the most transparency to the source so I prefer no amp and would rather hear the DAVE DAC with as little distortion as possible. If you read Rob's posts on his analogue output design you'll understand where I'm coming from. That said, I also have the Cavalli Liquid Gold on order from the final production run. I really don't think I'll use the LAu much, but I couldn't pass up the chance to get one.

As for speakers, I really have no optimal listening room in my home to run speakers at their best so I'd rather not invest too much in them. I find headphones exceedingly enjoyable and although I do _occasionally_ enjoy my modest tower speakers with my Yamaha receiver in Pure mode for music, I _rarely_ listen to them for music only, they're mostly for movie watching with my projector in a surround setup.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

Sorry I misunderstood, I thought you were talking about one of Focal's Utopia speakers which have made their name for quite some time in the Hifi world. But anyways congrats for your Focal Utopia headphone, I guess...


----------



## x RELIC x

louisarmstrong said:


> Sorry I misunderstood, I thought you were talking about one of Focal's Utopia speakers which have made their name for quite some time in the Hifi world. But anyways congrats for your Focal Utopia headphone, I guess...




It can get confusing, can't it? Lol! I'm sure with the proper setup the DAVE would sound fantastic feeding the Grand Utopia speakers through a good amp.


----------



## Beolab

Quest: 

Have anyone listened to the new upgraded AMR DP-777 SE ( Special Edition) on how different it sounds vs DAVE ? 

From my memory the old DP-777 is more laid back and velvety wooly with great depth and detailed resolution with deep bass and great body = should be very musical as a compliment to DAVE was my thinking. 
So if someone have got the opportunity to compare these two with headphones i would appreciate very much.


----------



## astrostar59

andrewold said:


> Thanks Rob.
> 
> I have to say I am a bit disappointed to find that it is necessary to disconnect my laptop in order to get the best SQ from my DAVE. You said in an earlier post http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1215#post_12220009 that "RF noise from the source can't get into DAVE". Now it turns out that it can. It is fiddly and irritating to have to disconnect my laptop, (the power cable is at the back) and easy to forget to reconnect it so it is dead the next morning. And although buying a Jitterbug is a partial solution it's not really very satisfactory to have to spend more money on a third-party product, which doesn't even totally sort the issue, not to mention that Audioquest recommend using two of them, so that's £80.  After spending £8k on a DAC I was kinda hoping it would be unimprovable!
> 
> ...


 
 I don't think ANY Dac regardless of cost can avoid dirty noise in the source. IMO if spending a decent amount on a DAC it is key to buy a stripped down server or Mac Mini fully optimised at the very least to get the best of of a PC - DAC system. It was not so long ago we were spending 50% of the budget on a CDP so a Mac Mini optimised at around 1K is cheap IMO. I use the TotalDAC USB cable which makes a big difference taking any digital hash out. And sorting the power supply with a linear 12V DC feed brought up the soundstage and the bass went bigger and deeper.


----------



## rkt31

x relic x said:


> Who, me? I'm in the camp that wants the most transparency to the source so I prefer no amp and would rather hear the DAVE DAC with as little distortion as possible. If you read Rob's posts on his analogue output design you'll understand where I'm coming from. That said, I also have the Cavalli Liquid Gold on order from the final production run. I really don't think I'll use the LAu much, but I couldn't pass up the chance to get one.
> 
> As for speakers, I really have no optimal listening room in my home to run speakers at their best so I'd rather not invest too much in them. I find headphones exceedingly enjoyable and although I do _occasionally_ enjoy my modest tower speakers with my Yamaha receiver in Pure mode for music, I _rarely_ listen to them for music only, they're mostly for movie watching with my projector in a surround setup.


 
 the tastes differ. actually theoretically for faithful reproduction of stereo, there should be two point source at appropriate angle. in real life that is not possible so its better to go as close as possible to a point source for proper reproduction of the imaging . too big speakers in small room will not do justice to the theory of point source and too small speakers in a big room will not produce adequate volume/sound pressure. so speakers size/type depends very much on the room size. for my room i find kef r300 to be ok. these kef have concentric driver which further help them to be close to  a point source. i wont say that i have best headphones . i enjoy my beyer dt880 very much but still feel the kind of depth, imaging and realism a good and well set speaker system provides is not possible through headphone( at least to me )


----------



## pkcpga

rkt31 said:


> the tastes differ. actually theoretically for faithful reproduction of stereo, there should be two point source at appropriate angle. in real life that is not possible so its better to go as close as possible to a point source for proper reproduction of the imaging . too big speakers in small room will not do justice to the theory of point source and too small speakers in a big room will not produce adequate volume/sound pressure. so speakers size/type depends very much on the room size. for my room i find kef r300 to be ok. these kef have concentric driver which further help them to be close to  a point source. i wont say that i have best headphones . i enjoy my beyer dt880 very much but still feel the kind of depth, imaging and realism a good and well set speaker system provides is not possible through headphone( at least to me )




The Dave creates incredible realism with my nautilus speakers, naim pre amp, dual biamping per channel naim amps. This set up is amazing, I haven't heard a headphone that comes close as of yet, but who knows as technology changes. Kef unidrivers perform well in smaller spaces, I have ls50's in my home office.


----------



## analogmusic

As I am listening to my Chord Mojo, I am really enjoying the emotions in the music.... it is all there, the way it is supposed to be, listening to 80's songs, Duran Duran, Paul Young,Tina Turner, Bon Jovi, songs I had heard on analog tape and Vinyl
  
 I remember around 10 years ago, almost despairing that soon the era of analog would be over, and the old tapes would no longer be viable. How would future generations hear the Magic of Michael Jackson music that I heard on Vinyl?
  
 I am very grateful, that thanks to Mojo, Hugo and Dave we can now enjoy those old recordings, and new ones, the way the artists meant us to hear them

 So many companies make this promise, but Rob Watts actually delivers on this.
  
 Thank you Rob.
  
 I am quite sure one day soon that the DAC used to play the music before Vinyl Masters are cut will be a Chord Dave in all record companies for those artists that made digital recordings (almost everyone)
  
 Mojo, Hugo and Dave can actually retrieve the musical magic in those old, and new digital files.


----------



## Mojo ideas

x relic x said:


> It can get confusing, can't it? Lol! I'm sure with the proper setup the DAVE would sound fantastic feeding the Grand Utopia speakers through a good amp.


Chord amp


----------



## lovethatsound

mojo ideas said:


> Chord amp


How about a naim amp?


----------



## astrostar59

Naa, try a Plinius SA-103 very tube like but oodles of power and dynamics.


----------



## raypin

Mmm.....for Dave owners, do you use one of those fancy stand? I intend to use my Dave exclusively for headphones. Is it necessary? Also, do I need one of those fancy power conditioner thingamajig? Coming from the Chord TT, I never needed one because of its long battery life. Tia.

Damn.....my TH 900 never sounded so good with the Dave. DA BASS! HOLY S...


----------



## rgs9200m

Raypin, what is it about the bass that you like? Thanks.


----------



## smial1966

I recollect Roy (romaz) using an Oyaide base which had a quartz chippings layer underneath the support plate. From memory it fitted the Chord DAVE perfectly and seemed to be beneficial sonically. Why not P.M. Roy and ask for his advice?  




raypin said:


> Mmm.....for Dave owners, do you use one of those fancy stand? I intend to use my Dave exclusively for headphones. Is it necessary? Also, do I need one of those fancy power conditioner thingamajig? Coming from the Chord TT, I never needed one because of its long battery life. Tia.
> 
> Damn.....my TH 900 never sounded so good with the Dave. DA BASS! HOLY S...


----------



## paulchiu

raypin said:


> Mmm.....for Dave owners, do you use one of those fancy stand? I intend to use my Dave exclusively for headphones. Is it necessary? Also, do I need one of those fancy power conditioner thingamajig? Coming from the Chord TT, I never needed one because of its long battery life. Tia.
> 
> Damn.....my TH 900 never sounded so good with the Dave. DA BASS! HOLY S...


 
 Ray,
  
 it makes a little difference in the sound (to my ears).  Perhaps quieter backgrounds.  I mostly like the looks.
 The elevation does make the DAVE runs cooler.  Not sure a cooler DAVE makes it sound better.
  
 paul


----------



## ddanois

smial1966 said:


> I recollect Roy (romaz) using an Oyaide base which had a quartz chippings layer underneath the support plate. From memory it fitted the Chord DAVE perfectly and seemed to be beneficial sonically. Why not P.M. Roy and ask for his advice?




I'm using the same solution. Works great.


----------



## smial1966

Please share the product name/designation here, as I remember it being an Oyaide item but can't recollect it's full moniker. Thanks.  




ddanois said:


> I'm using the same solution. Works great.


----------



## x RELIC x

smial1966 said:


> I recollect Roy (romaz) using an Oyaide base which had a quartz chippings layer underneath the support plate. From memory it fitted the Chord DAVE perfectly and seemed to be beneficial sonically. Why not P.M. Roy and ask for his advice?




Not Oyaide if this is the post you are referring to:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1800#post_12379613


It's the Acoustic Revive Quartz Under Board TB-38H.




Pics: romaz


----------



## smial1966

Yes that's it, my apologies for getting the manufacturer wrong and thank you very much for the correct info. 




x relic x said:


> Not Oyaide if this is the post you are referring to:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1800#post_12379613
> 
> ...


----------



## maxh22

It looks very sexy!


----------



## Jawed

I totally failed at CanJam this weekend to be so amazed by something that I wanted to buy it as soon as possible. The noise was far worse than I was expecting. I found all listening pretty much superficial in terms of judging equipment. On the other hand, I enjoyed and was moved by music on pretty much every system I listened to... Only a cheap pair of IEMs made me want to stop listening.

It did make me think of a question: "Hugo TT + Focal Utopia headphones or DAVE + HD 800 S?". Cost, obviously, isn't equivalent. Not even slightly. I own TT + HD 800 S, and the question is basically: which to buy first: Utopia or DAVE?

The upgrade from TT + HD 650 to TT + HD 800 S was much bigger than I was expecting and all music benefits in a clearly audible way (tonal richness, dynamics, resolution, emotion, fun etc.). HD 800 S basically re-mixed my record collection. Many people say that the difference between TT and DAVE varies substantially depending on the music/recording, to the extent that sometimes there is no meaningful difference.

So, all of that combined with the show makes me think I'd be better off getting Utopia first, for what it's worth.

I'm pretty sure there's no danger of me splurging on DAVE + Utopia at the same time. Famous last words...

[Or, instead of Utopia, read "Ether Flow"?...]


----------



## x RELIC x

jawed said:


> I totally failed at CanJam this weekend to be so amazed by something that I wanted to buy it as soon as possible. The noise was far worse than I was expecting. I found all listening pretty much superficial in terms of judging equipment. On the other hand, I enjoyed and was moved by music on pretty much every system I listened to... Only a cheap pair of IEMs made me want to stop listening.
> 
> It did make me think of a question: "Hugo TT + Focal Utopia headphones or DAVE + HD 800 S?". Cost, obviously, isn't equivalent. Not even slightly. I own TT + HD 800 S, and the question is basically: which to buy first: Utopia or DAVE?
> 
> ...




Both the ETHER Flow and Utopia are reported to be much better than the HD800/S, according to Tyll Herstons of Innerfidelity. I particularly like his teaser comment of the Flow vs the HD800:



> _"Similarly, the Ether Flow does not compute to my ears as a planar magnetic headphone—the super-clean transient response is shockingly good. The treble range is rendered with extraordinarily smooth speed. I think it's in the back-room now giving noogies to the HD 800."
> 
> Read more at http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/disruption-headphone-world#V4p53rTpjRHezbqm.99_





I haven't heard the TT, but raypin owned it and now has the DAVE so maybe he can chime in about the direct differences. I imagine you may hear more of a dramatic difference from the headphones though.


----------



## lowirve

Cannot find anywhere in US. Any help where I can order one?


----------



## ddanois

lowirve said:


> Cannot find anywhere in US. Any help where I can order one?




They're generally not in stock. Contact Blue Bird Music and ask for a local dealer. They can order it for you. I ordered mine from Suncoast Audio and I took about 6 weeks for delivery. Just received it a week ago.


----------



## Ampus

lowirve said:


> Cannot find anywhere in US. Any help where I can order one?



Candmhometheater.com if you are in California.


----------



## Mavwong

I agree Utopia need a very good amp. Karan KAS600 or higher range should do the job.
  
  
  
 Quote:


x relic x said:


> It can get confusing, can't it? Lol! I'm sure with the proper setup the DAVE would sound fantastic feeding the Grand Utopia speakers through a good amp.


----------



## lovethatsound

smial1966 said:


> Please share the product name/designation here, as I remember it being an Oyaide item but can't recollect it's full moniker. Thanks.


I've got 2 Acoustic quartz under board tb-38h for sale,pm me if your interested.☺


----------



## Ampus

lowirve said:


> Cannot find anywhere in US. Any help where I can order one?




Forgot to mention that candmhometheater.com website has not been updated to reflect Chord products, but the owner recently became an authorized Chord dealer. Straight up, honest, reliable guy!


----------



## raypin

x relic x said:


> Both the ETHER Flow and Utopia are reported to be much better than the HD800/S, according to Tyll Herstons of Innerfidelity. I particularly like his teaser comment of the Flow vs the HD800:
> I haven't heard the TT, but raypin owned it and now has the DAVE so maybe he can chime in about the direct differences. I imagine you may hear more of a dramatic difference from the headphones though.




Mmm....biggest difference for me (and it is still very early days for me to seriously compare), between the Chord Dave and the Chord TT are , out of the HD 800S and the TH900: Dave has far better dynamics, far better transparency (the equipment truly just disappears) and far better realism (much closer to a speaker set-up). The music just flows and makes it far easier to enjoy and FEEL IT. It just has this unerring and authoritative ability to "decrapify" your headphones. Expectation bias? You bet. New toy syndrome? You bet. So, YMMV. But if you are a Chord TT owner right now, my earnest advice as a former Chord TT owner: Please don't audition the DAVE. Run away! Is it worth the huge price difference: it depends on how healthy your personal finance is for this wonderful hobby of ours. But if you have a good collection of TOTL headphones, the DAVE is a no-brainer investment that will allow you to enjoy your TOTL headphones far better than ever before. Guaranteed. Are there just as good or better alternatives? Sure but in the Chord line-up and I've owned or used the Mojo, Chord Hugo, the QBD 76 and the Chord TT, DAVE is simply the best. It simply outclasses them. 

11 more HPs to test.........far out!


----------



## analogmusic

lovethatsound said:


> How about a naim amp?


 
  
 Chord DAC and Naim amp sounds very to me. I absolutely love my Naim amplifiers and will never part with them. 
  
 Depending on your budget, I would either suggest a Supernait 2, or separates like 282/Hicap/250


----------



## pkcpga

lovethatsound said:


> How about a naim amp?




I love and use the naim preamp and amp for my nautilus speakers with the Dave, I liked this set much better than the chord amps I've tried. Chord chose to use a sliding AB power amp instead of a true class A. For myself this becomes noticeable at low volume listening, it just doesn't seem as dynamic or room filling again mostly at lower volumes. I love the Dave it's the best DAC I've ever used by far including meridians superdac, naims DAC and Linn's DAC.


----------



## Crgreen

I wasn't aware Naim amps were class A.


----------



## pkcpga

crgreen said:


> I wasn't aware Naim amps were class A.



The 500's series is, not sure if any of the others are.


----------



## TheAttorney

lovethatsound said:


> I've got 2 Acoustic quartz under board tb-38h for sale,pm me if your interested.☺


 
 I'm interested, but first I had hoped that romaz (who has the above) would have reported back how he got on with the KE washing machine pads.
 The fact that he hasn't reported back so far suggests that he wasn't bowled over by them. OTOH, he hasn't posted much here anyway recently 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 The Acoustic Revive would definitely win by a mile over the KE pads on looks alone, but yet to be determined if it also wins on SQ


----------



## lovethatsound

theattorney said:


> I'm interested, but first I had hoped that romaz (who has the above) would have reported back how he got on with the KE washing machine pads.
> The fact that he hasn't reported back so far suggests that he wasn't bowled over by them. OTOH, he hasn't posted much here anyway recently
> 
> The Acoustic Revive would definitely win by a mile over the KE pads on looks alone, but yet to be determined if it also wins on SQ


He has posted on the Acoustic Revive a while ago,when he first got one.


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> I'm interested, but first I had hoped that romaz (who has the above) would have reported back how he got on with the KE washing machine pads.
> The fact that he hasn't reported back so far suggests that he wasn't bowled over by them. OTOH, he hasn't posted much here anyway recently
> 
> The Acoustic Revive would definitely win by a mile over the KE pads on looks alone, but yet to be determined if it also wins on SQ




My apologies for the dearth of posts lately. I am on a family holiday in Hawaii and so surfing rather than music has occupied more of my time. It is also inconvenient to post from an iPad and so I will refrain from any serious posts until I return home next week.

I had Kellett Enterprises make me a few custom sized isolation pads to try. They have good dampening capabilities but they require high loading pressure for their dampening to work well. This is why they work so well under a washing machine. Under a 7kg DAVE, their potential isn't fully realized. The reason they work better under the DAVE's footers compared to placing them directly under the DAVE's aluminum chassis is because the DAVE's footers exert more point pressure against the pads. If you decide to stay with these pads, this is definitely the best way to use them. 

How did the KE pads compare to my Acoustic Revive TB-38H + Black Ravioli BR pads? Not nearly as well. I also tried them under my subwoofer but somehow, they made my bass sound more diffuse and bloated. They did work extremely well, however, under my washing machine.

Regarding the TB-38H, if you like the warmer signature of wood plinths over something like granite, you will like this unit. While it results in an improved noise floor, it comes at a loss of focus. The Black Raviolis bring back this focus and are perhaps the star of the show. Of the two, they make the bigger difference and for tight budgets, I would consider a quad of these and call it a day. They combine nicely with the TB-38H and to my eyes, the TB38H is very pleasing to look at. As they are made in England and sell for only £24 a piece, I would recommend you give them a try. 

Upon my return home, I will be comparing what I have with other isolation devices including a quad of BrightStar IsoNodes, VooDoo IsoPods, Stillpoints Ultra SSs and a trio of Stillpoint Ultra 5s.


----------



## raypin

Mmm.....so, as a start, I should buy 4 of the Black Ravioli mechanical isolators for the Dave? Can I glue it?


----------



## Mojo ideas

If you buy them make sure they are al dente there's nothing worst than soggy pasta


----------



## raypin

Mmm...lol! Will do, sir!


----------



## bmichels

raypin said:


> ..... if you have a good collection of TOTL headphones, the DAVE is a no-brainer investment that will allow you to enjoy your TOTL headphones far better than ever before. Guaranteed. Are there just as good or better alternatives? Sure but in the Chord line-up and I've owned or used the Mojo, Chord Hugo, the QBD 76 and the Chord TT, DAVE is simply the best. It simply outclasses them...




Well, now that I have brought home a BHSE + Stax SR009 I definitively need to upgrade my HUGO DAC  

At every trade show I enjoyed HeadAmp's AYRE QB-9 sound signature with the BHSE+SR009. But... I guess today the BHSE/SR009 can take advantage of a more recent/TOL DAC that the "old" QB-9 ? So... May be DAVE Is the best solution ?

Peter from HeadAmp reconised that the DAVE offers much more details but... With a SR009 he feels that the DAVE´s sound may be less enjoable than the warmish QB-9 and that *we MUST avoid a bright DAC with the SR009/BHSE. *

So.... with this BHSE/SE009 formula1 combo Is DAVE still the best solution In Town or will a warmish DAC be a safer purchase ? May be a tube DAC or the new AYRE QB-9 ( to stay with the "AYRE sound" ) ?


----------



## romaz

bmichels said:


> Well, now that I have brought home a BHSE + Stax SR009 I definitively need to upgrade my HUGO DAC
> 
> At every trade show I enjoyed HeadAmp's AYRE QB-9 sound signature with the BHSE+SR009. But... I guess today the BHSE/SR009 can take advantage of a more recent/TOL DAC that the "old" QB-9 ? So... May be DAVE Is the best solution ?
> 
> ...




This is interesting that Peter would tell you this but you also have to understand he is an Ayre dealer and has something to gain by telling you this. Peter heard my DAVE against his QB-9 feeding the BHSE which was then driving a set of 009s and we BOTH acknowledged at the time how much better the DAVE was over the QB-9. 

Bertrand, I know you prefer a warmer signature in general and there is nothing wrong with this but I would suggest you bring a DAVE home for audition before deciding because to give up the rich dimensionality of the DAVE for a touch of warmth is not a good tradeoff, IMO. If after hearing a DAVE in your system and you still find yourself craving a touch of warmth or even-order harmonics, there are so many other areas you can find this without compromising the DAC.

Moreover, if you buy an Ayre, what happens to your HEX? Will you then buy a separate amp for that as well?


----------



## raypin

Mmmm.......can't comment on e stats since I don't have one.....yet. Currently using my DAVE as a standalone system with no external amp. I want to familiarize myself with the unit first before venturing in equipment matching (amp side).


----------



## romaz

raypin said:


> Mmmm.......can't comment on e stats since I don't have one.....yet. Currently using my DAVE as a standalone system with no external amp. I want to familiarize myself with the unit first before venturing in equipment matching (amp side).r




I think what you are doing is the right thing. So many dismiss the unique and wonderful virtues of the DAVE's headphone amp never even having heard it.


----------



## paulchiu

bmichels said:


> Well, now that I have brought home a BHSE + Stax SR009 I definitively need to upgrade my HUGO DAC
> 
> At every trade show I enjoyed HeadAmp's AYRE QB-9 sound signature with the BHSE+SR009. But... I guess today the BHSE/SR009 can take advantage of a more recent/TOL DAC that the "old" QB-9 ? So... May be DAVE Is the best solution ?
> 
> ...


 
  
 I like the DAVE sound straight more than feeding the BHSE.
 The BHSE did sounded more velvety with the Nagra HD DAC than the Nagra alone, but we're splitting hairs.
  
 paul


----------



## nepherte

bmichels said:


> Peter from HeadAmp reconised that the DAVE offers much more details but... With a SR009 he feels that the DAVE´s sound may be less enjoable than the warmish QB-9 and that *we MUST avoid a bright DAC with the SR009/BHSE. *


 
  


romaz said:


> This is interesting that Peter would tell you this [...]. Peter heard my DAVE against his QB-9 feeding the BHSE which was then driving a set of 009s and we BOTH acknowledged at the time how much better the DAVE was over the QB-9.


 
  
 These discussions quickly end in pointless "he said..., she said". Romaz is correct in that every statement has to be put into the perspective of that person. However, In this particular situation, I don't see any contradiction at all. Peter was talking about his personal sound signature preference (I was there) and not necessarily about the DAC's technical merits.
  
 In the end, you have to establish your own opinion, not copy another one's opinion as so often happens here. For all I care a majority may like DAC "X". If I don't like it, who cares what somebody else thinks of it?
  
 Speaking of opinions... I was very glad to get another opportunity to hear the DAVE again at Canjam London. It truly is very resolving - perhaps even more so than my Totaldac - and I encourage everyone to go and listen to it. However, I felt it was not as engaging (whatever that means) as my Totaldac. I didn't seem to experience the same emotions as when listening to the Totaldac. Perhaps this is due to meet conditions, perhaps due to a lack of alcohol, who knows... To eliminate all that, I'm hoping I can audition the DAVE sometime at home as well.


----------



## yellowblue

I was going from the Totaldac Dual to the Dave, and as much as I liked my Totaldac (and Vincents fantastic customer service) the Dave is better in every aspect.


----------



## romaz

nepherte said:


> These discussions quickly end in pointless "he said..., she said".




I guess you could use the word "pointless" but Bertrand asked for the opinion of others and I felt I was in a position of knowledge and so I offered him mine. As for "he said...she said," I've known Peter for a few years now. As he lives in Los Angeles, our paths have crossed frequently and I have purchased several amps and headphones from him and Justin over the years including a BHSE and 009. During our conversation about the DAVE earlier this year, no technical aspects were ever discussed (ie noise floor, small signal linearity, etc). We both just listened to my DAVE, then his Ayre using his tracks and then he provided me his candid opinion and I stand by my representation of his opinion that he offered. At no time did he suggest the DAVE sounded "bright" and that for the BHSE, "we must avoid" it. I'm not disagreeing that he offered you the opinion that he did, only that it contrasts with the opinion that he offered me. Each reader here can interpret my post as they wish.

Yes, each of us here is on our own personal journey and we each experience things in our own way. There is no right or wrong, only personal preference. To suggest, however, that many of us would spend $13k on a DAC because we are copying another person's opinion is a bit harsh. As a former frequent contributor to the TotalDac thread, I never considered any other TotalDac owner a copycat. To this day, I consider the TotalDac to be an excellent DAC and I would never try to convince another person that it was otherwise.


----------



## nepherte

yellowblue said:


> I was going from the Totaldac Dual to the Dave, and as much as I liked my Totaldac (and Vincents fantastic customer service) the Dave is better in every aspect.


 
 As long as you don't generalize (I'm assuming you don't), that's fine by me. Both times I auditioned the Dave, I didn't really find it superior (or inferior for that matter) to the Totaldac. All I'm saying is, I preferred the sound of the Totaldac (the keyword being I). Regardless of what I preferred, I thought that both the Totaldac and Dave are excellent dacs.


----------



## nepherte

romaz said:


> I guess you could use the word "pointless" but Bertrand asked for the opinion of others and I felt I was in a position of knowledge and so I offered him mine.


 
  
 And that is very much appreciated. I sure have found yours to be very informative.
  


romaz said:


> To suggest, however, that many of us would spend $13k on a DAC because we are copying another person's opinion is a bit harsh.


 
  
 That is definitely not what I meant, and if my post came across as such, I will retract that phrasing. All I'm saying is that some people (no one particular in mind) tend to be very much influenced by more prominent / active members, and instead of trying to make a solid attempt at forming their own, they echo another one's opinion (regardless of whether they are right or wrong). It's a society thing: dominant people can sway the opinion of others. My message is mainly "make up your own mind" (again not pointing to anyone in particular).
  


romaz said:


> I'm not disagreeing that he offered you the opinion that he did, only that it contrasts with the opinion that he offered me. Each reader here can interpret my post as they wish.


 
  
 Right back at ya  It was definitely useful information and the more there is on the table, the more one can make an informed decision ... And it kind of demonstrates why you should rely on your own opinion too


----------



## EVOLVIST

I know this has been covered, but I just can't find it, so I'm going to ask a stupid question anyway:

If I buy a DAVE outside of the USA, all I have to do is switch out the power chord to the wall and the DAVE will function anywhere from 80v to 260v, yes? In other words, just by switching the chord, I'll be able to use the DAVE with US 110-120v, correct?


----------



## nepherte

evolvist said:


> I know this has been covered, but I just can't find it, so I'm going to ask a stupid question anyway:
> 
> If I buy a DAVE outside of the USA, all I have to do is switch out the power chord to the wall and the DAVE will function anywhere from 80v to 260v, yes? In other words, just by switching the chord, I'll be able to use the DAVE with US 110-120v, correct?



The product page says 80-260, the manual says 90-250. You should be good.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

I paired my BHSE-009 combo with the Esoteric K-01 CD player (even more detailed than the Dave, but Esoteric players were often criticised to be on the more analytical side). It does not sound bright at all, with the right tubes on the BHSE and the right cables. Not sure how bright Dave is, but Esoteric players at that era are not warm by any standards.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

romaz said:


> I guess you could use the word "pointless" but Bertrand asked for the opinion of others and I felt I was in a position of knowledge and so I offered him mine. As for "he said...she said," I've known Peter for a few years now. As he lives in Los Angeles, our paths have crossed frequently and I have purchased several amps and headphones from him and Justin over the years including a BHSE and 009. During our conversation about the DAVE earlier this year, no technical aspects were ever discussed (ie noise floor, small signal linearity, etc). We both just listened to my DAVE, then his Ayre using his tracks and then he provided me his candid opinion and I stand by my representation of his opinion that he offered. At no time did he suggest the DAVE sounded "bright" and that for the BHSE, "we must avoid" it. I'm not disagreeing that he offered you the opinion that he did, only that it contrasts with the opinion that he offered me. Each reader here can interpret my post as they wish.
> 
> Yes, each of us here is on our own personal journey and we each experience things in our own way. There is no right or wrong, only personal preference. To suggest, however, that many of us would spend $13k on a DAC because we are copying another person's opinion is a bit harsh. As a former frequent contributor to the TotalDac thread, I never considered any other TotalDac owner a copycat. To this day, I consider the TotalDac to be an excellent DAC and I would never try to convince another person that it was otherwise.


 

 Heard TotalDac and the MSB Select 2 finally. Unfortunately Dave is simply no match and those two are at another level it seems. But Dave, at its price, is really a steal and is probably the best high end DAC today in terms of price/performance ratio. But when it comes to the "money no object" category, Dave still falls short - not because it is not expensive enough, but that the true R2R DAC technology simply wipes the floor with Dave.


----------



## STR-1

evolvist said:


> I know this has been covered, but I just can't find it, so I'm going to ask a stupid question anyway:
> 
> If I buy a DAVE outside of the USA, all I have to do is switch out the power chord to the wall and the DAVE will function anywhere from 80v to 260v, yes? In other words, just by switching the chord, I'll be able to use the DAVE with US 110-120v, correct?



See post 4159 for Rob Watts' advice on this. Sorry, don't know how to do a direct link to other posts.


----------



## x RELIC x

louisarmstrong said:


> Heard TotalDac and the MSB Select 2 finally. Unfortunately Dave is simply no match and those two are at another level it seems. But Dave, at its price, is really a steal and is probably the best high end DAC today in terms of price/performance ratio. But when it comes to the "money no object" category, Dave still falls short - not because it is not expensive enough, but that *the true R2R DAC technology simply wipes the floor with Dave*.




I haven't heard the MSB or TOTAL DAC, but in which areas would you say "wipes the floor with Dave"? Tonality, width, depth, timing, transparency? Rob's overarching goal is transparency, timing, and depth it seems and he's pointed out inherent problems with R2R in these areas. So my curiosity is simply, how does it compare, and in which areas? Cost aside of course. Jude certainly prefers the DAVE to the TOTAL DAC so I'm not sure your blanket statement would apply here. Also, your previous post stating you're not sure how bright DAVE is leads me to believe you haven't heard it. Not helpful when making comparisons I think. I'm not being defensive about the DAVE, and I like a very good R2R DAC just like the next guy (I loved my humble AGD DAC-19), but I'm just trying to weed out your perspective.


----------



## lovethatsound

louisarmstrong said:


> Heard TotalDac and the MSB Select 2 finally. Unfortunately Dave is simply no match and those two are at another level it seems. But Dave, at its price, is really a steal and is probably the best high end DAC today in terms of price/performance ratio. But when it comes to the "money no object" category, Dave still falls short - not because it is not expensive enough, but that the true R2R DAC technology simply wipes the floor with Dave.


Louis,what you have just said on here just goes to show me that you have never heard the DAVE going at all.In fact I've been looking at quite a few of your posts and alot of them,don't make sense at all.I have come to the conclusion you are just trolling these threads.


----------



## miketlse

evolvist said:


> I know this has been covered, but I just can't find it, so I'm going to ask a stupid question anyway:
> 
> If I buy a DAVE outside of the USA, all I have to do is switch out the power chord to the wall and the DAVE will function anywhere from 80v to 260v, yes? In other words, just by switching the chord, I'll be able to use the DAVE with US 110-120v, correct?


 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/4155#post_12789261


----------



## miketlse

str-1 said:


> See post 4159 for Rob Watts' advice on this. Sorry, don't know how to do a direct link to other posts.


 
 Right click on the 'post #nnnn' at the top right hand corner of the post, then select the 'copy link address' option.
  
 You can then include this link in your reply, by selecting the 'link' icon, and then pasting the link into the URL box.


----------



## ubs28

I have a few questions.

Is the price difference between the Hugo and Dave worth it?

Will there be a Dave 2 in a few years?

Does it pair well with the Auralic Taurus MKII?

How does the Chord Dave compare to other high end DAC's in the $10.000+ segment?

Are the HD 650, HD 800 and HD 800 S good enough or is the resolution of such headphones not good enough to hear all the quality of the Chord Dave?

Is the Chord Dave good enough to be used in high end speaker setups?

Does the Chord Dave work with IEM's? (no hiss?)


----------



## Beolab

We got Trolls here in the woods up north, but i did not know they where interested in HiFi ? 


To keep it short: 

The DAVE vs Select II i can not say that either is better than the other from my listenings, its more down to your own taste. 

The Select II sounds very spacious, with great musicality and dynamics, big soundstage, is very exact in its performance like a true precision instrument, and got a great 3D feeling to it, whereas the DAVE got the same tools in the Toolbox, but got better transparency slight better depth, that can be appreciated of some. The MSB is a little smoother in the upper end with great blackness so the details are very well presented, but in the turn you got slightly less transparency. 
One observation for example is: 
With DAVE i can here a very fine "rasp distortion" in the recording when it comes the tonal overlays in the mixing from the Studio, but with the Select II it is harder to here them, they are there but more subtle, so here is one proof of transparency. 

So maybe in the long term the MSB is slight more forgiving less bright, but can feel a little dry in the upper mids from time to time , and the DAVE is just brutal honest to the source, but not veil or bright. It is a fine line here. 

It is a slight different presentation in the tone flavour and dynamics in my opinion, but in a blind test i think not many in here should distinguish which one they are listening to, it is that close. 

I would say it is a matter of taste, and you should listen to them both if money is not an object.


----------



## miketlse

ubs28 said:


> I have a few questions.
> 
> Is the price difference between the Hugo and Dave worth it? There are regular posts on this thread, from people who own the Hugo, or Hugo TT, or Mojo, who audition the DAVE out of curiousity, and then are immediately convinced of the need to order a DAVE straight away. That tells me enough, that I too am curious to hear the DAVE in action, but I am nervous about how I might react next. Only you can decide about the value for money.
> 
> ...


----------



## pkcpga

ubs28 said:


> I have a few questions.
> 
> Is the price difference between the Hugo and Dave worth it?
> 
> ...



I have no hiss with my IEM's but it is a more forward DAC so bright IEM's plus the Dave might not be everyone's taste.


----------



## ubs28

Thanks for all the information. Hopefully I should have the Chord Dave soon and then I'll test it out. Perhaps I'll throw in the Utopa and Elear in the mix if I have them in at the same time. 
  
 Hopefully the Dave and the Utopia will not blow me away because else it will be an expensive month.


----------



## bmichels

louisarmstrong said:


> ...It does not sound bright at all, with the right tubes on the BHSE and the right cables.


 
 what exactly do you recommend as "right tubes and right" cables ?   I know that very soon I will want to tune-up my BHSE


----------



## STR-1

miketlse said:


> Right click on the 'post #nnnn' at the top right hand corner of the post, then select the 'copy link address' option.
> 
> You can then include this link in your reply, by selecting the 'link' icon, and then pasting the link into the URL box.



Thanks for that.


----------



## miketlse

ubs28 said:


> Thanks for all the information. Hopefully I should have the Chord Dave soon and then I'll test it out. Perhaps I'll throw in the Utopa and Elear in the mix if I have them in at the same time.
> 
> Hopefully the Dave and the Utopia will not blow me away because else it will be an expensive month.


 
  
 I predict an expensive month.


----------



## drabbish

i have seen some people that own a chord dave and berkeley reference dac so they are both quite good on high end 2 channel systems. that says alot since the berkeley is suppose to be one of the better dacs for pcm. the nice thing about the dave it has the headphone amp and usb connector. Also the 6v output is very impressive that is acutally suprisingly hard to find in high end dacs


----------



## x RELIC x

drabbish said:


> i have seen some people that own a chord dave and berkeley reference dac so they are both quite good on high end 2 channel systems. that says alot since the berkeley is suppose to be one of the better dacs for pcm. the nice thing about the dave it has the headphone amp and usb connector. Also the 6v output is very impressive that is acutally suprisingly hard to find in high end dacs




Actually, even more impressive for transparency, to me, is it has a headphone output from the DAC, not a headphone 'amp' per-se like conventional DAC/amp combos. Rob's designs and Chord's DACs are implemented quite differently because the low noise from the DAC directly allows for this. Yes, I agree, the amount of V out is impressive.


----------



## EVOLVIST

x relic x said:


> Actually, even more impressive for transparency, to me, is it has a headphone output from the DAC, not a headphone 'amp' per-se like conventional DAC/amp combos. Rob's designs and Chord's DACs are implemented quite differently because the low noise from the DAC directly allows for this. Yes, I agree, the amount of V out is impressive.




I was very impressed that by plugging my HD800s directly into the DAVE, and not using any crossfeed, that I was getting the same width and depth that I would by going balanced into a high-end amp. Getting a balanced-like effect from a singled ended jack, equals a big score for the DAVE!


----------



## romaz

louisarmstrong said:


> Heard TotalDac and the MSB Select 2 finally. Unfortunately Dave is simply no match and those two are at another level it seems. But Dave, at its price, is really a steal and is probably the best high end DAC today in terms of price/performance ratio. But when it comes to the "money no object" category, Dave still falls short - not because it is not expensive enough, but that the true R2R DAC technology simply wipes the floor with Dave.




Each is entitled to his/her opinion but I would have to agree that many of your comments are very suspect. As a former owner of a TotalDac, please share with me how it wiped the floor with the DAVE? I presume, in your careful analysis, you were able to compare the TotalDac, Select II and DAVE using the same amp, cables, headphones/speakers so that the DACs were the only variable?

Regarding your comment that the Esoteric K-01 is more detailed than the DAVE, I find this comment also to be suspect. I know this CD player well and it is probably the best CD player I have heard. Up until recently, one of my very best audio friends who often assists me with blind testing owned a K-01. It was so good, it replaced his dCS Debussy. The DAVE has since replaced his K-01 and he will tell you it is because he has yet to hear a DAC that can retrieve even the subtlest details from a Redbook file better than the DAVE. This is what it means to be transparent and this is what the DAVE does better than anything I have yet to hear, R2R or otherwise.

I won't argue the charms of the best R2R DACs because they appeal to me as well. Rob has been clear with many of his posts about the inherent limitations of R2R and yet, with the best R2R DACs that I've heard, there is no denying their rich, relaxed and organic presentation. Having spent numerous hours directly comparing my former TotalDac d1-monobloc (TotalDac's best DAC that can directly drive headphones and 2nd best DAC overall) and having personally experienced most of MSB's line including the Select II on 3 separate occasions, these are my general observations of R2R as a class. Against the DAVE, R2Rs sound drier whereas the DAVE sounds more fluid and I have yet to hear an exception to this statement. R2R sounds softer, like DSD can sound relative to PCM, and can indeed result in a more forgiving presentation. Perceived noise floor, to my ears, is about the same and that is to say that both are excellent. Timbre and tone can sometimes be more pleasing with R2R but not necessarily more accurate and this could be due to the softness that I mentioned. Transparency and resolution? This one is easy. DAVE wins. Transparency connotes different things to different people. For 1950s jazz recordings, utter transparency isn't necessarily a good thing. This is where a soft DAC can excel and why it was perhaps a good idea to hang onto grandpa's vintage tube preamp. But what about modern recordings which will only improve further as recording technology improves? Are we to shun the depth of the details in these excellent recordings that will only become more abundant with time just so our bad recordings can sound more listenable?

One last comment and this perhaps a criticism against Chord or at least their U.S. distributor. I will agree that it is sometimes easy to get wowed by a certain product at an audio event based on how well the room was set up and such experiences, even though they represent suboptimal show conditions, can result in an excellent product being overlooked. For example, at THE Show in Newport this year, the Voxativ room was one of the rooms that won best of show and those Voxativs were fed sublimely by a TotalDac. It was also powered by High Fidelity Cables. Obviously, there were a variety of reasons this room sounded so good but IMO, it is the system integrator that gets the credit. The same kudos goes to MSB. At CES, AXPONA, and THE Show this year, MSB had their typical excellent setup that included a pair of YG Sonja speakers and very well implemented acoustical treatments. On top of that, Vince Galbo played an excellent host and was keen enough to specifically select tracks that highlighted the strengths of the Select II. One couldn't help but be impressed. As for the Chord room during these events? I'm sorry to say that with the exception of AXPONA, system integration left much to be desired and the DAVE, IMO, was not presented as well as it deserved to be.


----------



## drabbish

Romaz have u heard the trinity Dac by any chance? I have seen many say it is the finest pcm dac. I know Dave is quit good for pcm just wondered how it was against the best


----------



## adyc

drabbish said:


> Romaz have u heard the trinity Dac by any chance? I have seen many say it is the finest pcm dac. I know Dave is quit good for pcm just wondered how it was against the best


 
  
 Recently, my friend and I visited a mutual friend who has Trinity DAC. We hear his Trinity DAC in a variety of music. For my taste, DAVE is comprehensively better than Trinity. The friend who joined this session and also listened to my DAVE in my home. He later then bought DAVE.


----------



## EVOLVIST

One thing I didn't do was audition music recorded in mono with the DAVE. 

Usually with headphones mono recordings have that hole-in-the-middle effect. Maybe the crossfeed will help with that; but has anyone listened to mono recordings with the DAVE through headphones? I imagine it's the same effect, yet I'm curious from experience that you guys might have had.

Thanks!


----------



## JaZZ

Usually I don't listen to mono recordings (even convert them manually to «stereo»), but just tested it. I can't reproduce the hole-in-the-middle effect, the music sounds like happening straight in the center of my head.
  
 Crossfeed does nothing with mono recordings: You can't monophonize the low-frequency content therein any further.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

Wow wow wow calm down folks - I respect you guys' opinion and that's my opinion only. The statement "Not sure how bright the Dave is" was in response to the discussion above that someone thought the Dave was bright - which I didn't find so at all, after extensive listening at a friend's place. In any event, under show conditions, the R2Rs should sound worse than the Dave that I heard with the Magico speakers. But that was not what I heard, and I am stating my thoughts. I have acknowledged Dave is a very good DAC and there is no need to get defensive. Ideally I would test the three DACs under the exact setup, but I guess the opportunity is hard to come by due to different distributorships etc.


----------



## Beolab

drabbish said:


> Romaz have u heard the trinity Dac by any chance? I have seen many say it is the finest pcm dac. I know Dave is quit good for pcm just wondered how it was against the best




My friend are the distrubuter here up in the north for the Trinity and a close friend with the designer. 

It is highly expensive and not worthy the asking price at all i can highly ashore everyone in here. 
I have heard it with the same songs on vinyl and on master tape, and it was no match at all for the Vinyl and the Master Tape wiped the Vinyl on the MBL speakers. 

I have also heard it against the DCS Vivaldi DAC and the Trinity sounds stiff and dry and unimpressive, i would not buy it or see it as a competitor to the top 3 DACs in the world.


----------



## Ampus

I finally got to audition DAVE in my system. My system is mainly 2 channel, not high-end headphone. I used my CD player's optical output to both Mojo and DAVE. Compared to Mojo, DAVE is a little more detailed and has a slightly bigger sound stage. Mojo is slightly more warm and more euphonic. I was expecting a night and day difference between DAVE and Mojo, but it was not. Maybe I was expecting too much from DAVE? Maybe DAVE is better for headphone use rather than 2 channel set up? I don't think that it was break-in issue since according to Rob, he could not hear a difference between a fully broken-in and a brand new DAVE's. I don't mean to create any controversy but I would like to hear inputs from members.


----------



## drabbish

what equipment were you using?


----------



## LouisArmstrong

beolab said:


> My friend are the distrubuter here up in the north for the Trinity and a close friend with the designer.
> 
> It is highly expensive and not worthy the asking price at all i can highly ashore everyone in here.
> I have heard it with the same songs on vinyl and on master tape, and it was no match at all for the Vinyl and the Master Tape wiped the Vinyl on the MBL speakers.
> ...


 
  
  
 Very nice system. Really nice.  Which are considered Top 3? I am guessing it must be 3 of the followings, but not sure which 3:
 TotalDAC, MSB Select 2, Chord Dave, dCS Vivaldi.


----------



## Ampus

drabbish said:


> what equipment were you using?




Classe M600's mono blocks and Focal Stella's. I also tried some tube amps as well.


----------



## bmichels

louisarmstrong said:


> Very nice system. Really nice.  Which are considered Top 3? I am guessing it must be 3 of the followings, but not sure which 3:
> TotalDAC, MSB Select 2, Chord Dave, dCS Vivaldi.




Do not forget CH précision C1 with all it's optional add-on cards and even it's external PSU optional X1. From 25k ro 45k.


----------



## analogmusic

ampus said:


> I finally got to audition DAVE in my system. My system is mainly 2 channel, not high-end headphone. I used my CD player's optical output to both Mojo and DAVE. Compared to Mojo, DAVE is a little more detailed and has a slightly bigger sound stage. Mojo is slightly more warm and more euphonic. I was expecting a night and day difference between DAVE and Mojo, but it was not. Maybe I was expecting too much from DAVE? Maybe DAVE is better for headphone use rather than 2 channel set up? I don't think that it was break-in issue since according to Rob, he could not hear a difference between a fully broken-in and a brand new DAVE's. I don't mean to create any controversy but I would like to hear inputs from members.


 
  
 I also heard Hugo TT vs Dave, into a 2 channel Naim amp / Dynaudio speaker system
  
 it was night and day for me? More 3 d soundstage, more detail, and most of all so much more musical.
  
 can you share what system you have and what speakers?


----------



## pkcpga

ampus said:


> Classe M600's mono blocks and Focal Stella's. I also tried some tube amps as well.




Surprised you didn't hear a substantial difference, the focal Stella Utopias are great speakers, I debated switching to them from my nautilus speakers. Have you tried the Stella's with naim power instead of classe, I know I tried my nautilus with classe and I didn't partially like it's very forward brighter sound. I switched to the Dave from the Linn DAC and it was an easily noticable difference but I've never tried running the mojo as a DAC for my nautilus set up. Sound is personal and getting the right combo can take some time, good luck.

I will say the Dave shines with DSD and better mastered cd's or sacd, dvda over most standard recordings from my own personal experience with my two channel system and the Dave.


----------



## Crgreen

I moved from the Hugo to the Dave in a speaker based system. The Hugo is a remarkable product and opened my eyes to what digital can do. I wouldn't describe the difference as night and day, but there are clear improvements in focus, layering and bandwidth. Many of the improvements don't hit you immediately, however. Subtle things like what musicians are doing being more obvious, and a greater coherence to performances. The kind of things that make musical reproduction more real, more like the real thing. Something that A/B demoing might not bring out.


----------



## kennyb123

ampus said:


> I used my CD player's optical output to both Mojo and DAVE. Compared to Mojo, DAVE is a little more detailed and has a slightly bigger sound stage. Mojo is slightly more warm and more euphonic. I was expecting a night and day difference between DAVE and Mojo, but it was not. Maybe I was expecting too much from DAVE? Maybe DAVE is better for headphone use rather than 2 channel set up? I don't think that it was break-in issue since according to Rob, he could not hear a difference between a fully broken-in and a brand new DAVE's. I don't mean to create any controversy but I would like to hear inputs from members.


 
  
 I got to hear shuttlepod's DAVE in my two channel system recently.  I heard a significant improvement in sound quality over my Mojo.  Source was a microRendu.  
  
 I'd guess that maybe your CD player's optical output or the optical cable you used hindered the DAVE.


----------



## Ampus

I used the optical cable that came with DAVE since others did not report hearing an audible difference among the stock cable and other high-end cables. Also, I used my CD player since Rob mentioned that DAVE is source independent although other forum members have reported differently.

I am glad that Crgreen had the same experience with the DAVE as I did since I started wonder if I was hearing impaired


----------



## ecwl

ampus said:


> I used the optical cable that came with DAVE since others did not report hearing an audible difference among the stock cable and other high-end cables. Also, I used my CD player since Rob mentioned that DAVE is source independent although other forum members have reported differently.
> 
> I am glad that Crgreen had the same experience with the DAVE as I did since I started wonder if I was hearing impaired


 

 I don't think the problem is with the Toslink connection. It really shouldn't matter as I use my Oppo Blu-ray player sometimes via Toslink and I can barely hear the difference between it and my USB input for Chord DAVE.
  
 I was going to ask if you used a preamplifier though. It sounds like you didn't. But if you did, perhaps the problem is with the transparency of the preamplifier...
  
 To me, it sounds like you heard the difference: more detail, wider soundstage, etc. And I think some of the improvements with DAVE requires time to fully appreciate. But ultimately, Mojo is a fantastic DAC so there's only so much improvements you can wring out of Redbook CDs. I personally, also think there is a night-and-day difference between DAVE and Mojo but not in the traditional sense like pkcpga said about say Linn DAC vs Chord Mojo. But then I think I just really enjoy the total sum of all the "subtle" improvements from DAVE which to me makes up for a huge overall improvement to the sound.


----------



## Crgreen

The thing that's impressed me most about the Chord DACs is just how much can be wrung out of red book, to the extent that hi-res is not much of a consideration for me. Yes, they do sound better, but I'm enjoying red book files so much, it doesn't really matter. Even mp3s@320 sound glorious. I have many of these, for review purposes, and there's nothing wrong with them at all. Again, there's a difference between MP3 and red book and above, but MP3s are rendered with natural timbre, depth etc, not something I'd ever thought possible before. Once you've lived with the Dave for a while, there's no going back. It's enough to make you lose all further interest in hi-fi, which is probably a good thing  I'd rather just focus on the music.


----------



## JaZZ

I agree with _ecwl_ and _Crgreen_.
  
 The DAVE has a similar tonal balance as the Mojo – so at first glance it may not sound overly different. The difference is rather in the background – and literally so. Small signal reproduction is so much improved that it opens a new dimension toward spatial depth. A side effect is a relaxing smoothness that nevertheless doesn't hide any sharpness or hardness on the recordings. The sound is organic despite the lack of analogue warmth. A combination of ultimate smoothness, absence of digital glare and surreal transparency unique in its kind. (That's my experience after owning a black DAVE since the beginning of the year.) Indeed for me DAVE is a dream come true.


----------



## kennyb123

Certainly the more time one spends with the DAVE, the more one will appreciate what it brings to the table. I will say though that when comparing the DAVE to both the Hugo TT and Mojo, it took very little time to conclude that the DAVE was in a different league entirely.


----------



## raypin

Mmmm......for experienced Dave owners only: what interconnects are you using to connect with your preferred external amp for headphones? What external amps for headphone are you using? What is your favorite source for the Dave? Reason I am asking is I need feedback to help build my headphone system around the Dave. Tia.


----------



## Beolab

jazz said:


> I agree with _ecwl_ and _Crgreen_.
> 
> The DAVE has a similar tonal balance as the Mojo – so at first glance it may not sound overly different. The difference is rather in the background – and literally so. Small signal reproduction is so much improved that it opens a new dimension toward spatial depth. A side effect is a relaxing smoothness that nevertheless doesn't hide any sharpness or hardness on the recordings. The sound is organic despite the lack of analogue warmth. A combination of ultimate smoothness, absence of digital glare and surreal transparency unique in its kind. (That's my experience after owning a black DAVE since the beginning of the year.) Indeed for me DAVE is a dream come true.





I think you are spot on, and summarise the DAVE sound in a very few sentences! 

Very well put!


----------



## JaZZ

Headphone amps? None. The best (in terms of high fidelity and transparency) you can do is use the DAVE's headphone output, directly connected to the DAC output stage – which you can't bypass with an external amp anyway, it's still in the signal path. Hence no analogue cable in my case.
  
 Silver Dragon for the HE1000, stock cable and (since today) Black Dragon for the HD 800.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jazz said:


> I agree with _ecwl_ and _Crgreen_.
> 
> The DAVE has a similar tonal balance as the Mojo – so at first glance it may not sound overly different. The difference is rather in the background – and literally so. Small signal reproduction is so much improved that it opens a new dimension toward spatial depth. A side effect is a relaxing smoothness that nevertheless doesn't hide any sharpness or hardness on the recordings. The sound is organic despite the lack of analogue warmth. A combination of ultimate smoothness, absence of digital glare and surreal transparency unique in its kind. (That's my experience after owning a black DAVE since the beginning of the year.) Indeed for me DAVE is a dream come true.




What do you mean by lack of analogue warmth?

I'm still waffling. I don't want to regret this next DAC purchase, because now we're talking about a whole other price range. 

I'm still finding it hard to decide between the Bricasti M1 SE, the DAVE, the Berkeley Alpha Reference 2. There are some others that I'm looking at, but I haven't heard them yet, like the AMR DP-777 SE, but man, what a mindfield it's turned out to be in this price bracket!


----------



## Beolab

raypin said:


> Mmmm......for experienced Dave owners only: what interconnects are you using to connect with your preferred external amp for headphones? What external amps for headphone are you using? What is your favorite source for the Dave? Reason I am asking is I need feedback to help build my headphone system around the Dave. Tia.




The most transparency you get with DAVE alone as already stated, because it is the worlds best headphone amp.

And the DAVE can drive all headphones on the market with ease i first of all want to highlight. 

I would recommend to start with Cables if you want to fine tune the sound: 

Im using DHC cables Prion 4S Headphone Cable that made greater improvement than any signal cable or power cable i have yet heard to this date. It sounds as you have changed to a new dac, that big was the improvement. 


I will only recommend to add a separate amp if you would like to bring a warmer tone flavour to the sound, but in the end loose some transparency then i would recommend a tube amp like Woo Audio WA5 or a Eddie Current. 

Or if you want to "lift" the sound with a more extended sound stage and more fluidity with greater up lived ( fake) dynamics you can go with a SS amp like the Moon 430 or the 
Moon 600i speaker amp that i use by myself. 
You maybe loose like 2-3 % in transparency, but i will only recommend this if you got HE-6 , Abyss or LCD-4 200 Ohms headphones. 

Then i recommend just to go single ended if you should go with a separate amp. 
I have tested that also with Transparent Reference v 5 XLR and it did not improve the sound.


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> What do you mean by lack of analogue warmth?
> 
> I'm still waffling. I don't want to regret this next DAC purchase, because now we're talking about a whole other price range.
> 
> I'm still finding it hard to decide between the Bricasti M1 SE, the DAVE, the Berkeley Alpha Reference 2. There are some others that I'm looking at, but I haven't heard them yet, like the AMR DP-777 SE, but man, what a mindfield it's turned out to be in this price bracket!


 
 The DAVE is tonally accurate.  It there is no warmth in the recording, the DAVE won't add it.  Veritas means "truth" and so by it's very name, Rob intended for the DAVE to be truthful.  If you are married to a cool sounding headphone or speakers and amplifier and you are looking to balance them with a warm DAC, then the DAVE isn't for you but neither will the Bricasti.  I haven't heard the new Berkeley Reference 2 but the original Reference didn't sound warm to me.  None of the MSB DACs are warm.  Same goes for dCS.  TotalDacs aren't warm either unless you go for the d1-tube Mk 2.  The AMR DP-777 might be a good choice for you.  Also consider the Lampi Golden Gate.
  
 I agree with Beolab.  Tuning is best done outside of the source.  Copper cables exude warmth and I find this to be the case with my DHC Nucleotide which is made of OCC copper over my Spore4.  As for amplifiers, the Moon 430HA is a warmish sounding amp.  The Eddie Current Black Widow is another very good example.  So is the EC Zana Deux depending on the tubes used.  Most Woo amps are warm. So many good options.


----------



## romaz

raypin said:


> Mmmm......for experienced Dave owners only: what interconnects are you using to connect with your preferred external amp for headphones? What external amps for headphone are you using? What is your favorite source for the Dave? Reason I am asking is I need feedback to help build my headphone system around the Dave. Tia.


 
 I agree with what's been said.  Unless you need more amplification than what the DAVE's headphone amp provides or unless you're looking for a different tonality, then I'm not sure what there is to be gained by adding an outboard headphone amp.  You not only lose out on the most transparent headphone amp there is but you also complicate your life by having to add an amp, interconnects, another mains cable, etc.  The beauty of the DAVE for me is its compact simplicity.
  
 As for the source, all the sources I have heard with the DAVE sound good, even a basic PC or Mac but there are some sources that sound better.  Take the time to read through the last few months of this thread and you will find a myriad of opinions.


----------



## JaZZ

evolvist said:


> What do you mean by lack of analogue warmth?


 
  
 Some DACs are passably successful with applying some forgiving warmth (in the form of harmonic distortion) for masking digital coldness, approaching the characteristic of an analogue source (early Wadia DACs come to mind, even my then Theta Pro basic II was affected by it, although less obviously), and certainly most tube-equipped DACs and CDPs belong to this category. The Price is reduced clarity and transparency, and in the long run you may even perceive this trait as fatiguing as well. The DAVE doesn't need this. Even my Bel Canto DAC2 sounds warm in comparison, but at the same time less organic and less smooth.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jazz said:


> Some DACs are passably successful with applying some forgiving warmth (in the form of harmonic distortion) for masking digital coldness, approaching the characteristic of an analogue source (early Wadia DACs come to mind, even my then Theta Pro basic II was affected by it, although less obviously), and certainly most tube-equipped DACs and CDPs belong to this category. The Price is reduced clarity and transparency, and in the long run you may even perceive this trait as fatiguing as well. The DAVE doesn't need this. Even my Bel Canto DAC2 sounds warm in comparison, but at the same time less organic and less smooth.


 
  
@romaz, yeah, and because @JaZZ wrote "Lacking warmth," I just wondered how he defined that. I don't want a warm DAC, though. Smooth, yes, fluid, of course, but it must be because the music is smooth and/or fluid. I want as accurate of a representation of the recording that I can get, without any digital glare.
  
 Actually, I thought the Bricasti M1 SE did this very well, despite sounding a little lean. However, I found out the unit that I demoed only had about 65 hours on it, so I know it wasn't well broken in. This might have had an impact on its sound.
  
 The question that keeps coming back to me, is the off the shelf DAC chip dead? Is Delta-Sigma dead, now that we have more cutting edge technology like the DAVE? R2R, will the technology used in DAVE render that obsolete, as well?
  
 What I cannot find is what makes the Berkeley Alpha Reference 2 DAC work. I'm very curious. And also, I didn't spend enough time with the DAVE.
  
 Anyway, I digress (sort of). This is all about the DAVE and whether I will come to that decision. I'm totally enamored with what Chord is doing over there. It's this thinking outside of the box that I enjoy.


----------



## theveterans

> The question that keeps coming back to me, is the off the shelf DAC chip dead? Is Delta-Sigma dead, now that we have more cutting edge technology like the DAVE? R2R, will the technology used in DAVE render that obsolete, as well?


 
  
 DAVE is a delta-sigma design in the core and not R2R, but the implementation is custom and tailored by Chord: DAC chips, FPGA, etc. Off the shelf DAC chips will most likely be used in portable areas.
  
 R2R can be custom implemented too like Metrum Adiago's FPGA and NOS filter or Schiit's Yggdrasil's custom oversampling filter.


----------



## EVOLVIST

theveterans said:


> DAVE is a delta-sigma design in the core and not R2R, but the implementation is custom and tailored by Chord: DAC chips, FPGA, etc. Off the shelf DAC chips will most likely be used in portable areas.
> 
> R2R can be custom implemented too like Metrum Adiago's FPGA and NOS filter or Schiit's Yggdrasil's custom oversampling filter.


 
  
 Have you heard the Metrum Adagio?


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## romaz

evolvist said:


> @romaz, yeah, and because @JaZZ wrote "Lacking warmth," I just wondered how he defined that. I don't want a warm DAC, though. Smooth, yes, fluid, of course, but it must be because the music is smooth and/or fluid. I want as accurate of a representation of the recording that I can get, without any digital glare.
> 
> Actually, I thought the Bricasti M1 SE did this very well, despite sounding a little lean. However, I found out the unit that I demoed only had about 65 hours on it, so I know it wasn't well broken in. This might have had an impact on its sound.
> 
> ...


 
 My observation is that in years past, audiophiles craved warmth and a certain pleasant albeit artificial harmonic because it was necessary.   Necessary to compensate for poor recordings, jitter, glare, harshness, shallowness or just general lifelessness.  Because many of these problems couldn't be overcome, it became easier to cover them up.  It would be like spraying on cologne to mask body odor when what was really needed was a good bath.  
  
 As transducers, amplifiers, and cables have improved, it is the digital front end that many continue to blame as the culprit.  Ask any vinyl lover why they continue to cling to their turntables and many will tell you it's because they don't believe digital is as good because of the glare and harshness that many equate with digital.  They call it "digititis." Many of these folks will also tell you that when they compare analog to digital, something seems "missing" with digital.   Is it the digital file, the music server or the DAC that's the problem?  It's probably a combination of all of these things but those of us who have spent quality time with the DAVE understand just how much more information is present in a Redbook file or even a 320k file than our previous DACs led us to believe.  You don't appreciate these previously hidden details right away but as you get used to the information that the DAVE provides, you begin to very easily notice just how much is missing when you listen to other systems.
  
 There are those of us who enjoy going to live events and given the choice, some of us would prefer to sit on the stage amidst the performers so that we're engulfed with the music.  Then there are those of us who prefer to sit in the stalls where we can better glean the soundstage and the acoustics of the venue.  Of course, there are those who are content sitting in the balcony to save a few dollars just so long as we get to experience the performance live.  Regardless of one's preference, those of us who attend live events understand that there's nothing quite like "being there."  While high-end audio will never be a true substitute for "being there", the only way to approach this ideal is to have access to as much of the details of the performance as possible.  In my view, you can never have too much detail.  This is what a good DAC is responsible for.  The goal of an amplifier is to amplify these details that are presented to it and the goal of the transducer is to convincingly present this analog waveform to your ears.  If the details aren't there, then what good is the best amplifier or transducer?  Garbage in, garbage out.  If the details aren't there, then what good is the DAC even if it does a nice job of covering up its inadequacies with softness and harmonics? This is where I believe people miss the boat with what a DAC is supposed to do.  A good DAC isn't supposed to sound good, it is supposed to be a faithful translator.  The onus of sounding good needs to belong to the performance and to the recording of that performance.  If the performance is good and the translation has been done faithfully, then the rest of the chain merely has to get out of the way.  
  
 Of course, no component is perfect or truly transparent.  We all know about the issues with ADCs.  Short of a million TAPS, even the DAVE falls short.  Transducers have their quirks and so speakers and headphones need to be properly paired with an amplifier that highlights their strengths and minimizes their weaknesses.  Since nothing is truly transparent, the best systems, IMO, are about balance which is why system integration is such an artform and can take months or even years to perfect.  I think life is soooo much easier, however, if you're starting from a neutral, resolving, clean and faithful source than one that keeps secrets or tells lies.  Those of you who have photography backgrounds will understand this final analogy very well.  Most photographers prefer to shoot in RAW format rather than JPEGs even though JPEGs can look better upon first presentation.  Why?  Because the RAW file has all of the information present whereas the JPEG has been manipulated where data has been truncated to achieve a certain pre-determined degree of sharpening and white balance.  What if a certain portrait requires more or less sharpening than has been performed or the white balance has to be further adjusted?  Well, too bad.  You can make adjustments in post but it will result in even further degradation of the file.  With a RAW file, if you were lucky enough to photograph a beautiful model that requires no retouching, then you'll be glad that automatic retouching wasn't performed.  With photographs that definitely benefit from beautification, then do it in post and not at the compromise of resolution.  DACs should be looked at the same way.  Let it faithfully present to you all that a recording has to offer, warts and all, and figure out how to make adjustments downstream.


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## iDesign

jazz said:


> I agree with _ecwl_ and _Crgreen_.
> 
> The DAVE has a similar tonal balance as the Mojo – so at first glance it may not sound overly different. The difference is rather in the background – and literally so. Small signal reproduction is so much improved that it opens a new dimension toward spatial depth. A side effect is a relaxing smoothness that nevertheless doesn't hide any sharpness or hardness on the recordings. The sound is organic despite the lack of analogue warmth. A combination of ultimate smoothness, absence of digital glare and surreal transparency unique in its kind. (That's my experience after owning a black DAVE since the beginning of the year.) Indeed for me DAVE is a dream come true.


 

 Interesting. Between the Hugo, Hugo TT, and Mojo, which product is most similar to DAVE? I have my own thoughts but it would be interesting to have others weigh in as well.


----------



## analogmusic

jazz said:


> I agree with _ecwl_ and _Crgreen_.
> 
> The DAVE has a similar tonal balance as the Mojo – so at first glance it may not sound overly different. The difference is rather in the background – and literally so. Small signal reproduction is so much improved that it opens a new dimension toward spatial depth. A side effect is a relaxing smoothness that nevertheless doesn't hide any sharpness or hardness on the recordings. The sound is organic despite the lack of analogue warmth. A combination of ultimate smoothness, absence of digital glare and surreal transparency unique in its kind. (That's my experience after owning a black DAVE since the beginning of the year.) Indeed for me DAVE is a dream come true.


 
 After hearing Dave and Hugo TT, I completely agree with how Jazz described it spot on.
  
 The Dave is so much better than Hugo TT, my jaw dropped  when I compared both. Dave is a dream come true, I remember absolutely being disgusted with the earliest CD players 30 years ago, finally this is digital music reproduced properly !
  
 Hugo does give huge taste of that, but Dave is the dream come true.


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## DaveRedRef-III

romaz said:


> My observation is that in years past, audiophiles craved warmth and a certain pleasant albeit artificial harmonic because it was necessary.   Necessary to compensate for poor recordings, jitter, glare, harshness, shallowness or just general lifelessness.  Because many of these problems couldn't be overcome, it became easier to cover them up.  It would be like spraying on cologne to mask body odor when what was really needed was a good bath.
> 
> As transducers, amplifiers, and cables have improved, it is the digital front end that many continue to blame as the culprit.  Ask any vinyl lover why they continue to cling to their turntables and many will tell you it's because they don't believe digital is as good because of the glare and harshness that many equate with digital.  They call it "digititis." Many of these folks will also tell you that when they compare analog to digital, something seems "missing" with digital.   Is it the digital file, the music server or the DAC that's the problem?  It's probably a combination of all of these things but those of us who have spent quality time with the DAVE understand just how much more information is present in a Redbook file or even a 320k file than our previous DACs led us to believe.  You don't appreciate these previously hidden details right away but as you get used to the information that the DAVE provides, you begin to very easily notice just how much is missing when you listen to other systems.
> 
> ...




A well reasoned and sensible post Romaz. One of the best of recent months I think. 

DAC's are now showing us what was there all along. I wish more speaker manufacturers would also focus on delivering the eq and focus of the original recording rather than trying to deliver their stock ''sound'. In most cases their stock sound was developed during an era of bad digital reproduction in order achieve the same cover ups you mention above. In this day and age I think we should be seeing a drive for flat response and less wide dispersion from tweeters too. I want to hear what the producer intended. Give us the truth!


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## raypin

Mmm...brilliant post that plain folks like me can easily understand. Thanks so much, @romaz!


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## Crgreen

But as T. S. Eliot said: "Humankind cannot bear very much reality".


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## rgs9200m

Is Dave that much better than some of the top CD players of the last 5 years or so from some of the better known digital companies like Esoteric, EMM, and Playback Designs? Or is just a different sound?
 (I haven't heard DAVE but I've heard many of these, for the record.)


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## DaveRedRef-III

rgs9200m said:


> Is Dave that much better than some of the top CD players of the last 5 years or so from some of the better known digital companies like Esoteric, EMM, and Playback Designs? Or is just a different sound?
> (I haven't heard DAVE but I've heard many of these, for the record.)




Fwiw, Over the years I have compared the Chord Red Reference with a number of players and DCS in particular to compare development. DCS always had a beautiful sound in terms of smoothness and good imaging and bass control. What it always lacked (to my ears at least) was musicality and emotion. Rob's DAC always had that, though as I used to tell my supplier "The mathematics aren't quite correct yet" It lacked the smoothness of DCS but still had the musicality of real music. I felt Rob was on the right course and I backed him and Chord through all 3 versions of the Red Reference and With each iteration the mathematics sounded more and more correct to my ears. Now with Dave I think Rob has cracked it. The musicality and/or emotion has benefitted further too.

If I ever compare a dac in the future though I will do it via top notch headphones even though I listen through speakers. That is the purist test to my mind and I would recommend all listeners test under the same conditions as it eliminates room reflections.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Btw I have also demo'd EMM and Esoteric though that was a few years ago now. My how time flies when your having fun!


----------



## JaZZ

daveredref-iii said:


> In this day and age I think we should be seeing a drive for flat response and less wide dispersion from tweeters too. I want to hear what the producer intended. Give us the truth!


 
  
 That's a misunderstanding. Tweeters have an uneven radiation pattern (the higher the frequency, the narrower the angle) due to physical limitations, not because the sound is «right» that way. Another cause of uneven radiation are crossover frequencies with multiway speakers – unavoidable as well. The ideal would be an even radiation angle throughout the audio band – no matter which. An unacheivable goal. In the first place because low frequencies are omnidirectional by the laws of physics (in the realm of loudspeakers). That said, there's one way to halve the reflected low-frequency content: dipole subwoofers. But they come with other acoustic problems and are hard to match to the conventional drivers upward.
  
 In my experience from my speaker-builder era one concept is particularly promising to passably overcome the problem: tweeters with spherical radiation. Have you ever heard a plasma flame reproducing the high-frequency content? It sounds phenomenally natural, also and especially compared to tweeters with narrower radiation, such as cone, dome and ribbon drivers and horn tweeters (even those with plasma driver). Now plasma drivers aren't practical in the real world, so I experimented with reflecting ceramic cones on the top of vertically radiating piezo tweeters (among others, such as dynamic horn tweeters), with sensational results, at least when it comes to spatial realism. Unfortunately this concept suffers from slightly smeared transients due to the reflections (but not more than usual horn speakers). The achievable ideal in my book would be specially shaped «dome» tweeters with not more than 21 mm diameter without acoustically active surround (but a permeable mesh instead). Due to hearing problems (tinnitus et al.) I gave up this hobby before realizing a prototype.
  
 In an earlier phase I experimented with transformerless ribbon drivers. One of them with a frequency range from 600 Hz up to >20 kHz would have matched your above ideal of a narrow dispersion. It definitely sounded incredibly precise (the damping velvet layer on the front plate also helped by reducing reflections), but also rather dry – hence unnatural. With a trick I managed to temper the issue: Horn tweeters behind the ribbon transducers directed toward the side walls made for a much greater realism. Another prototype of a ribbon supertweeter with extremely wide horizontal dispersion and still relatively wide vertical dispersion (membrane size 8 x 24 mm) sounded very good and natural – but still failed to create a perfectly realistic sound field. If I were still in this hobby, maybe I would have realized a ring-shaped ribbon tweeter...
  
 What I mean by «realistic sound field» is a natural, hence passably uniform dispersion of all frequencies with the goal of a neutral/natural frequency content within the reflected sound, if possible passably uniform across the whole listening room, for a correspondingly natural/realistic/plausible mix of impact angles on the outer ear. It doesn't really matter which degree the reflected sound has with respect to the direct sound. Virtually no reflections would mimic an open-air concert, which has its own charm. But since we're talking of speakers in a living room, that's an unrealistic scenario. BTW, listening to music in an anechoic chamber sounds nothing like in the open – low frequencies can't be sufficiently damped away, therefore an anechoic chamber makes for a rather claustrophobic experience. Which also demonstrates the importance of a passably uniform frequency content of the reflected sound. Unfortunately the radiation characteristic of musical instruments is kind of individual. A trumpet has a narrow high-frequency dispersion, a cymbal or a triangle radiates almost spherically, a violin is something in between. So what's possible is just an approach to the ideal – but among what's possible a spherical radiation of high frequencies up to the highest frequencies has proven to be the best compromise to my ears. Of course you have to take care for noncompromizing room conditioning, otherwise such a concept could very well sound much too reverberative, especially with speakers placed close to a wall (any wall!).
  
 I really wish I could hear what the DAVE is capable of making with such a noncompromizing speaker setup!
  
 Sorry for being somewhat off topic! I had to react to the desired narrow high-frequency dispersion. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 And to the often recommended beveling of the speakers toward the listener: it makes things even worse.


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## DaveRedRef-III

Jazz
Thanks for taking the time to provide such a detailed explanation of your point.

My brief mention of tweeter inadequacies was related to a recent audition of Kef's Reference one speakers with the new ultra wide dispersion tweeter. I have a backup pair of Reference 205/2 speakers from Kef also and I was less than impressed by the new tweeters lack of focus. It seemed to me a step backwards and I was rather disappointed as they had spent more than $1m on R&D to deliver something which could not compete with its predecessor.

Edit: ......in terms of imaging focus


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## JaZZ

daveredref-iii said:


> Jazz
> Thanks for taking the time to provide such a detailed explanation of your point.
> 
> My brief mention of tweeter inadequacies was related to a recent audition of Kef's Reference one speakers with the new ultra wide dispersion tweeter. I have a backup pair of Reference 205/2 speakers from Kef also and I was less than impressed by the new tweeters lack of focus. It seemed to me a step backwards and I was rather disappointed as they had spent more than $1m on R&D to deliver something which could not compete with its predecessor.
> ...


 
  
 The Reference One looks like an interesting concept, but a problematic one as well. A wide-dispersion tweeter in the center of a cone squawker (with metal membrane) calls for massive near-field reflections. Transients are actually doomed to be smeared. Point source is good, but the price is too high in my book.


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## Jawed

@JaZZ you need to hear the Smyth Research Realiser A16 in action.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/817115/canjam-london-2016-impressions-thread-august-13-14-2016/105#post_12790190

The technology is trying to do the wrong thing in my view: replicate the sound of a stereo or multi-channel speaker system. But it proves that there is a way to transform audio for playback through headphones that precisely replicates the experience of another soundfield. I hope the day will come when headphones, with the right recordings and math, can faithfully reproduce original soundfields.


----------



## JaZZ

jawed said:


> @JaZZ you need to hear the Smyth Research Realiser A16 in action.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/817115/canjam-london-2016-impressions-thread-august-13-14-2016/105#post_12790190
> 
> The technology is trying to do the wrong thing in my view: replicate the sound of a stereo or multi-channel speaker system. But it proves that there is a way to transform audio for playback through headphones that precisely replicates the experience of another soundfield. I hope the day will come when headphones, with the right recordings and math, can faithfully reproduce original soundfields.


 
  
 Yeah, that's fascinating stuff. But...
  


> (...) This includes the colourations of the speakers, which were painfully clear (with room sound on top). I'd prefer an idealised sound presentation of acoustic spaces over a presentation of speakers playing a recording. But the technology to do that doesn't seem to exist. It's a shame, because frankly, one of the reasons I listen to music and video exclusively on headphones now is to escape from the sound of speakers playing in rooms, which is usually crap (and in my previous life I lived with a high end system for years, though I admit that was fab, not crap).


 
  
 ...I have exactly the same reservations as you, apart from the financial aspect. If once a simulation of the real thing is possible, I will certainly reconsider it.


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## EVOLVIST

jawed said:


> @JaZZ you need to hear the Smyth Research Realiser A16 in action.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/817115/canjam-london-2016-impressions-thread-august-13-14-2016/105#post_12790190
> 
> The technology is trying to do the wrong thing in my view: replicate the sound of a stereo or multi-channel speaker system. But it proves that there is a way to transform audio for playback through headphones that precisely replicates the experience of another soundfield. I hope the day will come when headphones, with the right recordings and math, can faithfully reproduce original soundfields.


 


> At the end of the day I plugged my HD 800 S into DAVE and enjoyed it more than yesterday.


 
  
 What didn't you enjoy about the DAVE from the day before?


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## AndrewH13

Never likely to own DAVE, but did enjoy a good listen at London Canjam
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  

  
  
 Always a pleasure meeting the guys from Chord.


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## analogmusic

I was very impressed with the sense of depth that Dave gives, but this was on a hi-end Naim/Dynaudio system
  
 Does listening to Dave on headphones gives the same sense of depth?
  
 Also how does Dave compare to a hi-end turntable ?
  
 On many albums, my Hugo does completely trounce my entry level project debut carbon turntable


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## jelt2359

I tried the Dave against a Totaldac a while back on speakers. The difference was so resounding I was floored. The Dave was much better at separation on complex passages, and the sense of 3D space was instant and unmissable. It was the difference between listening to a recording, and being at the studio. 

Nonetheless, one of the guys at the same audition preferred the Totaldac's warmth and more analog sound. But for me, I wasn't listening for frequency response- there are many other ways to tune that, including change the amp, change the cables, change the speakers, change the tubes (if using a tube amp), change the power conditioner, even change the power cord. 

Where it mattered to me- the technicalities- it was so obvious that pretty early on I thought to myself, "why is this sonic test still going on?" At one point the Totaldac owner played a very complex passage to convince himself for sure, then told me, "yep, the Dave is much better at separation and details". I just nodded. 

I guess not everyone is looking for the same thing in a DAC. 

Anyhow, just my two cents!


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## rkt31

very true. any dac specially likes of Dave will shine on speaker system. one of the member uses Dave with benchmark ahb2 power amp into kef reference . would like to listen his views .


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## EVOLVIST

Has anyone replaced the stock power cord with their DAVE, and if so, with what cord?

Thanks!


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## raypin

Mmm....using an Audioquest NRG 10 on my Dave. Had it already so I might as well use it. Stock cable is in the box.


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## EVOLVIST

raypin said:


> Mmm....using an Audioquest NRG 10 on my Dave. Had it already so I might as well use it. Stock cable is in the box.




I believe I'm getting my DAVE from the Czech Republic, so I'll have to replace the cord with one from the good ol' USA. Monoprice might work just as well.


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## maxh22

evolvist said:


> I believe I'm getting my DAVE from the Czech Republic, so I'll have to replace the cord with one from the good ol' USA. Monoprice might work just as well.




You bought yourself a Dave?


----------



## ddanois

evolvist said:


> Has anyone replaced the stock power cord with their DAVE, and if so, with what cord?
> 
> Thanks!




I'm using a Cardas Clear M cord with mine.


----------



## EVOLVIST

maxh22 said:


> You bought yourself a Dave?


 
  
 I didn't want to say that I bought it until I bought it, but probably tomorrow I'll arrange for the purchase. After all the searching I just keep coming back to the DAVE.


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## STR-1

raypin said:


> Mmm....using an Audioquest NRG 10 on my Dave. Had it already so I might as well use it. Stock cable is in the box.



I'm also using a loan NRG-10 with my Dave. It's darker than stock and bass is a little more present but I feel I may have lost some important dynamics and some natural decay. I'm still undecided whether to keep it. How would you compare the AudioQuest with stock cable? I also tried the Shunyata Alpha Analogue (they didn't have the Alpha digital) and took that straight back.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

evolvist said:


> I didn't want to say that I bought it until I bought it, but probably tomorrow I'll arrange for the purchase. After all the searching I just keep coming back to the DAVE.


 
  
 It's okay - you are in good company


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## pkcpga

str-1 said:


> I'm also using a loan NRG-10 with my Dave. It's darker than stock and bass is a little more present but I feel I may have lost some important dynamics and some natural decay. I'm still undecided whether to keep it. How would you compare the AudioQuest with stock cable? I also tried the Shunyata Alpha Analogue (they didn't have the Alpha digital) and took that straight back.




I use the nordost Tyr 2, it's a great power cable, it seems to give an even more black background without effecting the dave's sound signature and quality.


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## Jawed

evolvist said:


> What didn't you enjoy about the DAVE from the day before?



On the first day I listened to a lot of Ether Flow and Elear/Utopia through a variety of amps. Elear, on it's own, is very lush as far as I can tell. I think Ether Flow is fairly lush (maybe more so than Elear?). As far as I can tell the Cavalli amps are lush too. And the Dragon Inspire amp on the Moon Audio stand also seemed lush playing Utopia (even HD 800 S sounded lush). The Utopia on the Focal stand didn't sound lush (both it and Elear were playing from individual Naim DAC-V1s) but Elear did. I preferred Utopia on the Moon Audio stand.

So the relative dryness of DAVE playing into Audeze LCD-4 was really obvious when I listened to it. The combination sounded kinda odd to me. I don't know how much of that oddness was simply the contrast from the lushapalooza I'd spent most of the day doing. I don't know how lush LCD-4 is, either.

Next day I was carrying my HD 800 S and tried that on DAVE. Overall character was much like I get at home. It felt familiar. Headphone character being dominant I guess. I remember something I listened to gave me a strong emotional connection, but I can't remember what the hell it was (mostly distracted by how noisy it was). Overall I felt more connected and hearing more into recordings, though, than the day before.

I hardly listened to anything that day. I listened to HD 800 S through the Pass amplifier(?) off Hugo on the Moon Audio stand and that didn't sound lush. The Ether Flow at the Mr Speakers stand sounded frankly overblown in the bass yet drier in the mid and treble. Less enjoyable than the previous day.

My hearing definitely changed a lot over the weekend. It's always changing and Saturday my hearing was relatively brittle (it was brittle the night before)- so I think the lush sound of most things I listened to was welcome. On Sunday some of the brittleness in my hearing had disappeared. By the time I'd got home the brittleness had gone. So I think my changing hearing is a factor in my feelings about DAVE.

Honestly, for me, the show was only good for giving me the most superficial feeling of the overall character of different pieces of equipment. I wasn't there trying to decide on things to investigate or buy. I was there just for curiosity's sake. But I admit the noise was far worse than I expected. I won't go again, it's simpler to do a proper dem. I don't think much curiosity can be satisfied in that environment.

I certainly don't think I formed any useful opinions beyond the fact that everything I listened to was enjoyable (with the exception of a cheap IEM which was merely OK). This is actually quite impressive to me. It did make me wonder whether overall standards are so high that it's actually hard to end up with something dissatisfying. This is in stark contrast to traditional hi-fi shows that I've been to many of (from 1984 to 2002), where it was exceptional to find anything worth staying to listen to. Room/speaker mismatches an ever present spoiler...

So, anyway, my opinion on DAVE isn't worth anything.

Eventually curiosity will get the better of me and I'll go listen to Utopia and Ether Flow off DAVE and see if I like anything enough to upgrade. I'll listen to those headphones, because I got the impression they could do things I would enjoy. And DAVE, because it's supposed to be more of what I love about my TT.

(Currently listening to Joy Division: These Days - full and dare I say it, a bit lush.)


----------



## EVOLVIST

Yo, I wonder if Rob Watts used a 4k power cord when testing the DAVE. 

I'm not trying to snide here, but damn!


----------



## pkcpga

evolvist said:


> Yo, I wonder if Rob Watts used a 4k power cord when testing the DAVE.
> 
> I'm not trying to snide here, but damn!




Purchased all the nordost matching cables from speakers to connectors to power outlets, so I didn't pay near the msrp as a full package but still was not inexpensive. Though after hearing the speaker cables on my nautilus speakers I was hooked for everything, also make great headphone cables and they start at $400-500 range. For me these power cables worked better than a power conditioner.


----------



## Ampus

I am using Cullen Crossover Series Power Cable which I have had for awhile. I haven't A/B compared it to the stock cable.

Back to my Mojo vs DAVE comparison, my brain break-in (or brain washing from reading these posts ) is settling in. DAVE is better than Mojo and shines on well recorded music; however, Mojo is still a damn good unit and hard to beat at the asking price.

Hifi is one of the hobbies where the law of disminishing return clearly applies. We pay dearly just to squeeze the last few drops from music. I used to have B&W 802D's before my Focal Stella's. Are the Stella's better than the 802D's? You bet! Are they 6 times (based on price) better than 802D's? Not a chance! Is DAVE better than Mojo? Of course! Is DAVE 20 times better than Mojo? I will let you guys be the judge on that.


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## Beolab

This is a very interesting post about to diffrent systems in the Ultra High End category. 

I feel that DAVE are very similar to the transparent sonic tone of MSB Select II than to the warm HE-1 Orpheus, and this fellow thinks the same, so what is natural in fact?  

Somewhere in btw as usual  



: post: 

Two systems that sound very different. Where the Sennheiser uses a tube amp, the MSB is designed without opamps or tubes to avoid digital coloration of the signal. The result is arguably the highest level of transparency and accuracy in a headphone system. The stage is wide, and incredibly deep. According to the deep stage, the layering and imaging are both incredibly precise, and the combination with the clean and airy stage results in very spacious sound with excellent separation. Depending on your reference point, its signature is neutral to slightly v-shaped. The key issue in describing its tonality comes down to how you define 'naturalness' - how a natural and realistic sound should sound; something I discussed in length and couldn't completely come to agreement with with my close friend @MikePortnoy who I finally got to meet in real life. The midrange of the Stax/MSB system is not inherently warm - at all, nor does it get warmth from the mid-bass like you'll see in many popular tunings. This contributes to the clean air between the layers/instruments as well as the high level of transparency, but does not really convey emotion. I feel that a vocal should have a sense of warmth, especially a male vocal for example being produced from deep within the throat and chest. Besides emotion, a certain level of warmth can add a bit of power and body to notes. So the result is a highly accurate portrayal of string and brass instruments, though it can sound a bit clinical for genres like pop or rock. But like I said, a part of this depends on how you define 'naturalness'; leaning towards tonal accuracy, the way instruments should sound, as well as the treble speed and the way it dissolves, the MSB/Stax is incredibly natural based on its realism. When it comes to a certain emotional naturalness, the way a vocal can reach and touch you and the weight of guitars, it is different from my personal definition of naturalness. However I strongly suspect that the target audience of a $150.000 system is wealthy 50+ people that mainly listen to classical, and the soundstage and transparency of the MSB/Stax system is of course mind blowing in this regard. 

The HE-1 on the other hand has a very different presentation. The soundstage is noticeably smaller, dare I say even intimate in comparison (gasp!). Especially in its depth. I wouldn't call the presentation upfront by any means, but the music is not as distant or layered as I might have expected (but keep in mind I heard the MSB/Stax first). Its tonality however is more pleasing to my ears, and I think easier to listen to. While the mid-bass is highly controlled and defined, the tubes give the midrange that inherent warmth that I would classify as natural. Its treble is very articulate but never prominent, where the MSB/Stax could border on harsh with an ill-picked recording, as it is extremely dependent on the quality and type of recording due to its transparent nature. 

Something else that I really liked was the prototype Cavalli driving the open Ether flow. For starters, Warren and Dan were both two easy going and simply awesome guys that I very much enjoyed talking to, but I really, really enjoyed listening to the combo. There was a certain smoothness and dynamic flow in the presentation, with a signature that was exactly to my liking. The midrange was clearly defined, with the right combination between sparkle and smoothness. Guitars just rocked, vocals sound beautiful, I could definitely settle for that in a distant future if I ever make the switch to headphones. I felt I could just listen to music without overthinking it, very nice. 

Shoutout to Emil and Piotr from Lime Ears and Custom Art for being two very cool dudes that I immensely enjoyed hanging and laughing with. I have their ciems so I knew they make great stuff, but it was nice to meet them in person. 

Finally, big compliment to the Head-Fi team for organising the event. It's impressive to see that the iem/headphone world has reached a level of significance where meetings can be organised in such a beautiful venue. I've been to academic conventions that weren't half as classy.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/817115/canjam-london-2016-impressions-thread-august-13-14-2016/100_50#post_12790110


----------



## romaz

ampus said:


> Back to my Mojo vs DAVE comparison, my brain break-in (or brain washing from reading these posts ) is settling in. DAVE is better than Mojo and shines on well recorded music; however, Mojo is still a damn good unit and hard to beat at the asking price.
> 
> Hifi is one of the hobbies where the law of disminishing return clearly applies. We pay dearly just to squeeze the last few drops from music. I used to have B&W 802D's before my Focal Stella's. Are the Stella's better than the 802D's? You bet! Are they 6 times (based on price) better than 802D's? Not a chance! Is DAVE better than Mojo? Of course! Is DAVE 20 times better than Mojo? I will let you guys be the judge on that.


 
 I can't help but think there is something in your system that is preventing the DAVE from distancing itself from the Mojo.  As good as the Mojo is, I never once questioned how much better one was over the other.  As good as the DAVE is on headphones, it is even better on speakers.  As the Mojo is battery driven and the DAVE is not, could you possibly have a problem with the quality of your mains supply?  Do you have a dedicated circuit and a good ground?   Are you plugged into a power conditioner or distribution block?  If yes, consider plugging straight into the wall.  If you are plugged straight into the wall, consider plugging into a power conditioner.  Consider trying a different mains cable than the Cullens Crossover you are using.  Are you using equivalent interconnects between Mojo and DAVE?  Have you tried a USB source yet?
  
 I say this because I am currently communicating via PM with someone who approached me with concerns about the SQ he was getting out of his DAVE.  While living in Italy, he told me everything was fine and since moving to Washington, D.C, all of a sudden, his DAVE was no longer sounding good.  We eventually figured out he had a bad distribution block.


----------



## paulchiu

evolvist said:


> Has anyone replaced the stock power cord with their DAVE, and if so, with what cord?
> 
> Thanks!


 
  
 Tried a bunch of power cord and ended using Shunyata Sigma Analog 1.75m 15A
 For me, I get as close to the sound from my turntable, without the noise.
 It is the most noise free cable I have tested with the DAVE so far.
  
 paul


----------



## EVOLVIST

Well, hell, if none of you guys dig your stock DAVE power cord then sell one to me! Haha! I'm laughing, but I'm serious.


----------



## Ampus

romaz said:


> I can't help but think there is something in your system that is preventing the DAVE from distancing itself from the Mojo.  As good as the Mojo is, I never once questioned how much better one was over the other.  As good as the DAVE is on headphones, it is even better on speakers.  As the Mojo is battery driven and the DAVE is not, could you possibly have a problem with the quality of your mains supply?  Do you have a dedicated circuit and a good ground?   Are you plugged into a power conditioner or distribution block?  If yes, consider plugging straight into the wall.  If you are plugged straight into the wall, consider plugging into a power conditioner.  Consider trying a different mains cable than the Cullens Crossover you are using.  Are you using equivalent interconnects between Mojo and DAVE?  Have you tried a USB source yet?
> 
> I say this because I am currently communicating via PM with someone who approached me with concerns about the SQ he was getting out of his DAVE.  While living in Italy, he told me everything was fine and since moving to Washington, D.C, all of a sudden, his DAVE was no longer sounding good.  We eventually figured out he had a bad distribution block.




Hi Romaz,

I have dedicated circuits (one of the best investments that I have ever made ) for my system and therefore haven't used any power conditioner. I certainly could try using a power conditioner and a different power cable at your advice.

With regards to the interconnects, I am using a 30 years old Sony optical cable that I purchased during my college years (don't laugh ) and Audioquest (AQ) Golden Gate 3.5mm to RCA's for the Mojo. For the DAVE, I am using the stock optical cable and AQ Earth RCA cables. I haven't tried an USB source yet as I am rather old school and too busy with work to tinker with something more complicated than a CD player.

Don't get me wrong. I like the DAVE but it just didn't blow the Mojo to smithereens as I hoped that it would.


----------



## ecwl

I was wondering what digital volume level Ampus sets his DAVE at? Classe M600 has 29dB of gain and Focal Stella are pretty sensitive speakers. Maybe the volume setting is so low for the DAVE and Mojo, the distinction between the two DACs were minimized? Just a thought...


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## raypin

str-1 said:


> I'm also using a loan NRG-10 with my Dave. It's darker than stock and bass is a little more present but I feel I may have lost some important dynamics and some natural decay. I'm still undecided whether to keep it. How would you compare the AudioQuest with stock cable? I also tried the Shunyata Alpha Analogue (they didn't have the Alpha digital) and took that straight back.




Mmm...I'm still evaluating so I can't comment on the difference.


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## Ampus

ecwl said:


> I was wondering what digital volume level Ampus sets his DAVE at? Classe M600 has 29dB of gain and Focal Stella are pretty sensitive speakers. Maybe the volume setting is so low for the DAVE and Mojo, the distinction between the two DACs were minimized? Just a thought...




Trust me that the volume setting was not low. I tend to listen at a relatively high volume level, especially when the wife is not at home . Of course when I A/B compared Mojo and DAVE, I tried to set the volume of both at the same level. It also crossed my mind that my hearing acuity is not what it's used to be. To make sure that this was not the issue, I enlisted my wife and kid in the listening test and they could not hear a pronounced difference either.


----------



## STR-1

paulchiu said:


> Tried a bunch of power cord and ended using Shunyata Sigma Analog 1.75m 15A
> For me, I get as close to the sound from my turntable, without the noise.
> It is the most noise free cable I have tested with the DAVE so far.
> 
> paul



Hi Paul. I had for a couple of days on loan the Shunyata Alpha Analogue to try out with my Dave and HIFIMAN HE1000 (source AK380). I had wanted to try the Alpha Digital but the store didn't have that. I assume the type of difference between the Sigma Analogue and Sigma Digital will be similar to the Alphas. How would you describe that difference? Thanks.

Steve


----------



## romaz

ampus said:


> Hi Romaz,
> 
> I have dedicated circuits (one of the best investments that I have ever made ) for my system and therefore haven't used any power conditioner. I certainly could try using a power conditioner and a different power cable at your advice.
> 
> ...


 
 With dedicated circuits, it would seem your mains power should be good but a dedicated circuit doesn't protect you against noise backwashed into your line by your other components.  I prefer not using traditional power conditioners either since I have found that they often trade low noise floor for stunted dynamics but if you have one to try, you have nothing to lose to try one.  Sometimes, they're necessary.  If you have the opportunity to use another power cable (any power cable), it might also be worthwhile to do so.  You never know.
  
 As for your Sony optical RCA interconnect, this one is interesting.  I don't know if it's good or not but since the DAVE is so much more affected by things connected after it, it would be reasonable to try something different just to see.  If you don't have another set of RCA cables to try, feel free to PM me.  Depending on where you live, I might be able to help you out.  The Cable Co's lending library is another good resource.
  
 The stock optical cable that comes with the DAVE works just fine and should be as good as any as long as you're not getting any dropouts.  I'm sure you have a good CD transport but in the process of keeping an open mind, it might help to try another input on the DAVE using a different source and USB is the DAVE's best input.  Even a battery-powered laptop connected via a generic USB cable to DAVE should work out well.
  
 As for value, trying to quantify and rationalize the monetary value of components in an emotionally-driven hobby like high-end audio is a fool's errand, as you probably know, because there's no sane way to rationalize it.  At the same time, how many other hobbies can so easily and reliably transport you through time and space (without legal or health ramifications)?  What I would say is this -- if the sonic differences are large enough and enjoyable enough for you to justify the price premium between the Mojo and DAVE and the means is there for you to do it, you should do it.  My guess is that the DAVE will prove its worth over time and it may be the last DAC you'll ever want.  If not, don't hesitate to stay with the Mojo and consider yourself fortunate that the $600 Mojo is capable of providing you the same emotional experience as the DAVE.  In the end, isn't this what it's about?


----------



## x RELIC x

ampus said:


> Trust me that the volume setting was not low. I tend to listen at a relatively high volume level, especially when the wife is not at home . Of course when I A/B compared Mojo and DAVE, I tried to set the volume of both at the same level. It also crossed my mind that my hearing acuity is not what it's used to be. To make sure that this was not the issue, I enlisted my wife and kid in the listening test and they could not hear a pronounced difference either.




I recently posted this in the Mojo Thread for a conversation that was very similar to this one, so I'll cross post my thoughts here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post/21600#post_12807842




> _The thing about hearing a difference between gear is that not everyone listens for the same thing. When Head Fi member romaz took part in Tyll's Big Sound 2015 he was basically the only one who could pass the blind tests (He's a physician, well educated, well spoken, and has a scientific mind). When asked how he did it I believe he said in the forums he listens for the sense of stage in the music. Once he locked on to that it was fairly easy for him to differentiate between gear. Of course I'm paraphrasing, but the point is that if just listening to the music as a general whole then one may not hear any difference at all between gear. Also, the entire chain plays a large part in being able to hear audible differences. With a sub-par transducer the source gear differences will be further masked in distortions and frequency imbalances.
> 
> Some members listen to certain things that they find of great value and therefore, to them, the differences are 'night and day'. Others simply don't care about listening for the same things so they will never 'hear' a 'night and day' difference. I think that's where the majority of disconnect happens in describing audio and audio gear.
> 
> ...




I would only add that the difference that I hear between the DAVE and other gear I've heard is even greater than with the Mojo, to me at least, but I'm listening for the diaphanous stuff. The real low level detail and subtle cues that give music the sense of realism, depth and soundstage that make it sound more analogue. The space between the notes. The detail in the blackness so to speak. 

If focusing 'on the surface' then no, you won't hear much difference, except for perhaps the superior timing. Some people lock on to the low level stuff quickly and others benefit from letting their brain adjust to the sound and _then go back their previous gear_. Usually that's when the 'aha!' moment happens.

Also, quick A/B has been shown to be less fruitful in hearing differences in gear. Because of the way we are wired it is more beneficial to listen for longer periods at a time when comparing gear. The overriding problem here is that the Mojo is already really good compared to a lot of gear IMO, but the DAVE is easily better to my ears.


----------



## extenso

x relic x said:


> I recently posted this in the Mojo Thread for a conversation that was very similar to this one, so I'll cross post my thoughts here:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post/21600#post_12807842
> I would only add that the difference that I hear between the DAVE and other gear I've heard is even greater than with the Mojo, to me at least, but I'm listening for the diaphanous stuff. The real low level detail and subtle cues that give music the sense of realism, depth and soundstage that make it sound more analogue. The space between the notes. The detail in the blackness so to speak.
> ...


 
 Are the differences pronounced to you even at a lower volume with headphones, say 50-60 dB?


----------



## x RELIC x

extenso said:


> Are the differences pronounced to you even at a lower volume with headphones, say 50-60 dB?




To a degree yes, but obviously not as readily, and less dynamic. I'm typically listening at 75-85 dB, and normal conversation level (50-60 dB) doesn't quite get my juices going. However, going any louder than 85 dB becomes quite fatiguing for me on pretty much all gear I've used. To me the biggest difference with the DAVE is transient response, timbre, and very low level detail. Cues that give me a sense of space the recording was recorded in. Also stuff like vibrations of strings, drum hit texture, subtle vocal inflections that I just don't pick up on with lesser gear. The small things that add a large sense of realism to me, which can still be heard at lower volume, but again, not as readily. Obviously close mic'd performances or heavily processed studio recordings are not considered in parts of this assessment. My preference is for recordings with minimal treatment/processing done to them, such as live recordings for example. I hear much less of a difference with heavily produced modern pop between gear. 

What I was getting at earlier was that these things _will_ come to the listener IMO, just that they _may not be readily evident_ until the listener adjusts and then goes back to other gear after acclimating to the new information in the sound. That's when you actually miss what you've become accustomed to, even though not everyone may be able to articulate it.


----------



## ecwl

ampus said:


> Trust me that the volume setting was not low. I tend to listen at a relatively high volume level, especially when the wife is not at home . Of course when I A/B compared Mojo and DAVE, I tried to set the volume of both at the same level. It also crossed my mind that my hearing acuity is not what it's used to be. To make sure that this was not the issue, I enlisted my wife and kid in the listening test and they could not hear a pronounced difference either.


 
 Wait. Classe M600 only has one RCA input. How do you A/B effectively? Or do you use a preamplifier? If so, what's the preamplifier?


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## jarnopp

ampus said:


> Trust me that the volume setting was not low. I tend to listen at a relatively high volume level, especially when the wife is not at home . Of course when I A/B compared Mojo and DAVE, I tried to set the volume of both at the same level. It also crossed my mind that my hearing acuity is not what it's used to be. To make sure that this was not the issue, I enlisted my wife and kid in the listening test and they could not hear a pronounced difference either.




I've only heard the Dave once, and it was in an a/b situation when Rob Watts was speaking at Audio Vision in SF. Compared to another top end DAC (forget which now) there was a noticeable difference to the audience on a classical piano piece. Rob thinks piano is some of the most difficult to get right in terms of timing. Perhaps try some piano, or other complex genres?


----------



## Ampus

x relic x said:


> I recently posted this in the Mojo Thread for a conversation that was very similar to this one, so I'll cross post my thoughts here:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post/21600#post_12807842
> I would only add that the difference that I hear between the DAVE and other gear I've heard is even greater than with the Mojo, to me at least, but I'm listening for the diaphanous stuff. The real low level detail and subtle cues that give music the sense of realism, depth and soundstage that make it sound more analogue. The space between the notes. The detail in the blackness so to speak.
> ...




Thank you for your comments! No, I am not disputing that DAVE is superior to Mojo. I am just stating that the differences were not pronounced as I expected.

I did hear the finesses that you described in your post; however, the differences between Mojo and DAVE are subtle. You even mentioned that yourself "subtle cues". As everyone knows, the higher up you are on the HiFi eschelon, the differences among the high end gears, especially within the same company, become more subtle at best.

I am not surprised that you were able to hear a notable difference among Mojo and other non-Chord products. I had no issue discerning the differences among Mojo and my other non-Chord DAC's. The "problem" with Mojo and DAVE is that they share the Chord's "house sound" making differentiation of the SQ between them more difficult.

Rob Watts recommended doing 10 - 20
seconds of music passages when doing an A/B comparison. I tried both the 10 - 20 seconds and longer passages when I did my comparison.

I also thinking that purchasing an expensive product has a psychological effect on the purchaser. No one wants his or her uber expensive product to be just marginally better than the inexpensive ones. Would this play a role in how some posters were readily able to hear differences whereas other posters were not?

My background is not that different from Romaz's, although I would admit that I do not have the golden ears and the eloquence that he does. I was an engineer before becoming a Vascular surgeon. Needless to say, I am very precise and detail attentive.

Do I prefer DAVE over Mojo? You bet that I do and more than likely will keep DAVE. However, I still think that Mojo gives you a lot for your money. If I have to venture at assigning a number to the two products, I would say that Mojo gives you at least 80% of DAVE's performance. 

These are just my opinions. Don't tase me bros!


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## paulchiu

str-1 said:


> Hi Paul. I had for a couple of days on loan the Shunyata Alpha Analogue to try out with my Dave and HIFIMAN HE1000 (source AK380). I had wanted to try the Alpha Digital but the store didn't have that. I assume the type of difference between the Sigma Analogue and Sigma Digital will be similar to the Alphas. How would you describe that difference? Thanks.
> 
> Steve


 
  
 Hi Steve,
  
 I have not compare the difference between the Alpha analog to digital line with the DAVE.  I started with the Anaconda Helix over 10 years ago and there were improvements to that line versus the Alpha analog, which is remarkable as the latter is half the cost of the Helix.  The Alpha analog has an even quieter background, better isolation and 3D sound versus the Helix.
 With the Sigma, these factors improve even more.  The DAVE as is already scares you with the 3D sound, the isolation and the quiet stage.  The Sigma and Alpha cables will let even more of the DAVE through.
  
 The best way for you to understand what the Shunyata does is after some days with it, listen to the DAVE without the Alpha.  Then you can feel if the extra $1,000 is worth it.
  
 paul


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## x RELIC x

Ampus, I believe we are saying the same thing, but from different perspectives. As I mentioned, I believe the perceived differences are going to be more _valuable_ to some than to others. Your assessment of a 20% difference between Mojo and DAVE is a lot higher than I would have thought you would have said.

Given this hobby's level of diminishing returns 20% is actually a large difference and one that I would agree with, if not a little exaggerated IMHO. In my industry (film & tv Vfx) the saying goes 'you can get to 90% of the way to completion with 10% effort, but that last 10% takes 90% of the time'. It's that last little bit that's impressive for me from the DAVE, and the aspect of audio reproduction that I value most.

Take the Olympics 100m for example. The differentiator between placing on the podium and 4th place is often tenths of a second. It's that _last little bit_ of performance that seems that much more impressive.


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## Christer

ampus said:


> Thank you for your comments! No, I am not disputing that DAVE is superior to Mojo. I am just stating that the differences were not pronounced as I expected.
> 
> I did hear the finesses that you described in your post; however, the differences between Mojo and DAVE are subtle. You even mentioned that yourself "subtle cues". As everyone knows, the higher up you are on the HiFi eschelon, the differences among the high end gears, especially within the same company, become more subtle at best.
> 
> ...


 

  You make some  very interesting points. But like many others here you don´t mention what kind of music you used in your comparisons?Having auditioned DAVE only via headphones and only  for a few hours my  limited experience with DAVE  nevertheless makes me suspect that you are  probably not far off with your 80% estimate regarding Mojo versus DAVE.
 I had both my own Hugo and a Mojo and DAVE side by side  for a few hours with Sennheiser HD 800 and HEK headphones. And while I did hear even more refinement and low level details like acoustic cues and even more realistic instrumental timbres via DAVE than both Mojo and Hugo, the differences were not day and night on material where I know how things sounded live in the hall.
 And with some very spotmic´d recordings the slightly warmer less resolved SQ from  Mojo made listening  more  "bearable" than the  Extreme Veritas of DAVE.
 Increased resolution can be a bit of  two-edged sword sometimes.
 With SOTA recordings of large scale classical music it is a clear benefit and makes listening even  more enjoyable.
 But unfortunately not all recordings are well made .
 Judging from the posts here it seems a lot of people here listen to  electronica and  for those I would say that the differences between Mojo,Hugo and Dave would be more a case of bragging rights than any actual audible SQ  increase, since the low level detail, acoustic information from the venue, the   dynamic range and instrumental timbres and decay into silence of a final chord or  soundstage depth  or similar really low level information, is simply missing from those genres in general.
 If on the other hand you listen to acoustic music well recorded in a real venue, DAVE imho is better than any other consumer product I have yet auditioned.
 But is it 20 times better than little Mojo or  roughly 8 times better than Hugo, which the  current pricing  indicates ?
 Imho humble opinion,no.
 Most certainly no.
 I am patiently waiting until  there will be DAVE units at prices  more  relevant to the actual SQ differences I  heard.


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## Crgreen

Perhaps the differences of opinion as to how much better the Dave is to the Mojo are primarily differences as to how people choose to express themselves. Some are more prone to hyperbole, others more restrained. There's no independent scale to which reference can be made.


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## maxh22

There is a large gap when It comes to pricing between the Hugo TT and Dave, Chord should come up with a Dave lite to fill in the gap.


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## EVOLVIST

Well, I finally purchased my DAVE today. I should have it in about 8 to 10 days. You guys would probably want to kill me if you found out how much I got this new unit for. 

I can't see this as anything other than an end-game DAC.


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## theveterans

evolvist said:


> Well, I finally purchased my DAVE today. I should have it in about 8 to 10 days. You guys would probably want to kill me if you found out how much I got this new unit for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 You mind will even be more blown coming from an iDSD from your sound sig.


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## maxh22

evolvist said:


> Well, I finally purchased my DAVE today. I should have it in about 8 to 10 days. You guys would probably want to kill me if you found out how much I got this new unit for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 How much?


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## EVOLVIST

theveterans said:


> You mind will even be more blown coming from an iDSD from your sound sig.




Yeah. The iFi stuff really packs a lot of bang your buck, though. On the other hand, what really made my HP setup was my headphone amp and the spaciousness it provides. With the DAVE I really don't need the SPL Auditor. I did, however, try the DAVE running balanced into the Auditor and it didn't make much of a difference, if any. Might as well keep it simple and just plug right into the DAVE.

People have said the crossfeed with the DAVE is subtle, but that wasn't my experience. I thought the 1 and 2 settings were captivating, nearly making it sound like 3 different DACs. It ended up being a big selling point for me, because now there is a flexibility I never had before.


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## x RELIC x

evolvist said:


> Yeah. The iFi stuff really packs a lot of bang your buck, though. On the other hand, what really made my HP setup was my headphone amp and the spaciousness it provides. With the DAVE I really don't need the SPL Auditor. I did, however, try the DAVE running balanced into the Auditor and it didn't make much of a difference, if any. Might as well keep it simple and just plug right into the DAVE.
> 
> People have said the crossfeed with the DAVE is subtle, but that wasn't my experience. I thought the 1 and 2 settings were captivating, nearly making it sound like 3 different DACs. It ended up being a big selling point for me, because now there is a flexibility I never had before.




I could never get along with the iFi gear, at all. Congrats on the DAVE!! 

I would agree about the crossfeed, and I feel it's very well implemented. Just be sure to turn it off for binaural recordings.


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## Kakki

Rob, I was told that Dave is using LME49990 and OP07C as the op amps. I'm really curious how those op amps are selected among all the op amps. Would appreciate your thoughts


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## EVOLVIST

maxh22 said:


> How much?


 
  
 No, trust me; you don't want to know. Plus, I'd rather keep my scalp in here.


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## x RELIC x

kakki said:


> Rob, I was told that Dave is using LME49990 and OP07C as the op amps. I'm really curious how those op amps are selected among all the op amps. Would appreciate your thoughts




Where did you get this information? I'm pretty sure Chord doesn't outsource off the shelf hardware for its gear.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3120#post_12602887

Plus, if Chord were using those chips in the DAVE then I'm not sure the DAVE would achieve its incredible specifications.

Edit: Of course it would be best for Rob to clarify.


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## romaz

ampus said:


> No, I am not disputing that DAVE is superior to Mojo. I am just stating that the differences were not pronounced as I expected.


 
 It appears expectation bias is certainly at play here.  There is another group of very respectable audiophiles who are presently doing a DAC shootout between a Hugo, DAVE and TotalDac d1-dual which are being used to feed both a BHSE/SR009 and what appears to be a very high-end speaker setup consisting of late model B&W speakers, Mark Levinson monoblocks, etc.  A Macbook Pro running Roon was used to feed each DAC.  During their blind testing with the BHSE/SR009, they have indicated that no one in their group of 4 individuals were able to discern any difference at all among these 3 DACs and so in this portion of the shootout, it would appear the Hugo was the winner given its low price.  As they moved to the speaker setup, the DAVE and TotalDac were able to distinguish themselves more readily with the DAVE sounding more "precise" and the TotalDac sounding "warmer and sometimes more enjoyable."
  
 Should we be surprised by this finding?  During Tyll Hertsen's Big Sound 2015, a group of experienced audiophiles including Bob Katz, a professional sound mixer and Tyll himself were unable to distinguish during a blind test whether they were listening to a $2,300 Schiit Yggdrasil or a $13k Antelope Audio Zodiac Platinum DSD DAC with Rubidium Atomic Clock.  To be clear, during the blind testing of these two DACs, a 10-second portion of a Brazilian vocalist singing in Portuguese was looped and that's all each person had to listen to but, nonetheless, this led many to conclude that the DAC doesn't matter much.  Should we be concluding the same thing?
  
 Last year, as an owner of a very fine Bricasti M1 DAC, the opportunity to audition a TotalDac d1-dual came up and I was just stunned by how much more I preferred the TotalDac to my Bricasti.  It was smoother, blacker and more resolute and it took 30 seconds for me to hear it.  Of course, the Bricasti has a very characteristic sound and I suspect many of us here can blind test this DAC against another DAC but regardless, since I couldn't unhear what I had heard, I committed to buying a TotalDac.  Now here is where things get interesting.  TotalDac has several models in their product line.  At that time, their entry level DAC was the d1-single (about $7,200), their most popular DAC was the mid-level d1-dual ($10,300) and then there was the d1-monobloc with reclocker (about $25k).  There was an even higher level d1-twelve which sold for as much as $35k but because it couldn't drive headphones directly like the others, I never considered this DAC.  I was torn as to which DAC to buy since I didn't want to have to upgrade again.  Vincent Brient, the creator of these DACs offered to sell me the d1-monobloc but provided me the instructions so that I could downgrade the d1-monobloc to a d1-dual and even a d1-single and then he gave me 3 weeks to decide which one I wanted to keep.  This gave me the opportunity to easily A/B/C three different DACs that varied in price by nearly $20k.  Of course, like many, I expected great differences among these DACs given their price differences although from a design standpoint, what distinguished these DACs was the number of resistors used (100 vs 200 vs 400).
  
 To my surprise, upon initial listening, there wasn't much difference at all.  This actually made me happy because I felt I could just go with the d1-single and save a considerable sum.  As I buckled down and began doing some serious critical objective listening over the span of 3 weeks, the differences became quite clear.  The tonality of each was nearly identical but from the d1-single to the d1-dual to the d1-monobloc, the sound became more relaxed and effortless and it became quite evident that the d1-monobloc exhibited the most air and the greatest depth of the 3 DACs.  The music had come to life more and it was like going from 2D to 3D.  While these differences were not readily evident on many studio tracks, with my acoustical tracks, it was quite evident.  While the differences were never night and day, the cumulative differences were meaningful and worthwhile enough to me that I went ahead and bought the d1- monobloc.  I had found my end-game DAC and since no other high-end DAC including the more expensive d1-twelve or any of the MSB DACs could drive headphones directly, I considered the d1-monobloc the finest headphone DAC in the world, bar none.  By this time, I had heard both the Hugo and TT and I still preferred my TotalDac.
  
 In November of 2015, Rob Watts and the DAVE came to town.  As the dealer is a friend, he invited me to come by.  I was unavailable for Rob's presentation but I decided to give the DAVE a listen although I was convinced that there was no way this tiny thing could compete with my 3-box TotalDac that cost twice as much.  By this time, I was so tuned-in to what to listen for in a DAC that within literally 5 minutes, I knew that I had stumbled across something very special.  While it was a pre-production model that was shipped in advance of Rob's presentation for him to use, I convinced the dealer to allow me to take the DAVE home for 2 days so that I could directly compare it against my TotalDac.  For 2 days, I got almost no sleep because I wanted to maximize my time with the DAVE against my TotalDac and while both DACs were very close in most areas, in every important area, I found the DAVE to be superior.
  
 My point with this story is I believe there is a proper methodology to assessing a DAC that should be very intentional.  Some have shared with me that they look for the DAC that moves them emotionally and while this is what we all want our systems to do, when evaluating the performance of a DAC, it should be more objective than subjective.  We also have to remember what a DAC is supposed to do and not unfairly burden it with responsibilities that belong to another component.  It is supposed to extract information from a digital file and faithfully convert it to an analog waveform.  The best DACs retrieve not only the subtlest details but should be capable of presenting these details in the proper timing.  The best DACs should be invisible meaning they should have no sound of their own.  This is why comparing a DAC can be so difficult.  Unlike comparing headphones, speakers or even amplifiers, how are you supposed to assess something that shouldn't have a sound of its own?  And so I agree with @Christer, when comparing DACs, more than with any other component, the recording absolutely matters.  From the built-in DAC in your iPhone to a $110,000 dCS Vivaldi stack, depending on the recording or even the part of the recording you are listening to, sometimes there will be zero difference and other times, the differences will be more significant.  You also have to be able to have a point of reference, otherwise, how do you know how a recording should sound?
  
 Here are some of the things I intentionally listen for when I evaluate a DAC and I suspect many of you listen for these things also:
  
 1.  Tone and timbre
 2.  Air
 3. Depth
 4. Focus and clarity
 5. Delineation of complex details and ability to present fine detail
 6. Layering of details
 7. Macro and microdynamics
 8. Coherence and flow
 9. Musicality
  
 For each area, I use a specific portion of a track (10-20 seconds) that I know well.  It's important to have a reference and so I will typically use a combination of recordings that I know very well including my own recordings where I was present at the event.  As a benefactor of our local symphony hall, I have the privilege of recording a number of performances for my personal use (with permission, of course).  These are 2-mic recordings of unamplified performances and just so you know the quality of the talent that comes by, they include the likes of Joshua Bell, Alessio Bax, Sam Haywood and the Vienna Boys Choir, just to name a few.  I also host concerts in my home and I record all of these sessions.  The point is that I know exactly how these tracks should sound.  When I assess for depth, I use a recording of a concert performed at my home last year.  It is an Ecuadorian Jazz trio comprised of a guitar, stand-up bass and percussion.  When I listen to this track, the DAC should convince me that the guitar, bass and percussion are located exactly as I experienced it that night.  
  
 When assessing timbre, because I play the piano and I know the timbre of the piano better than any other instrument, I use simple piano tracks.  I have yet to hear a completely accurate reproduction from any DAC of the piano.  For example, when I press a key on my Steinway and I close my eyes, I have yet to hear a music system regardless of price that can reproduce this exact same sound but some DACs do it better than others and the DAVE has done it better than any DAC I have heard.  Once again, I am not looking for "pleasing," I am looking for "real" and "accurate."
  
 When I assess for air, I listen to both small and large ensemble.  Instruments and voices should sound dimensional and not flat.  When I listen for delineation of complex details, I want to be able to discern the presence of all the various instruments playing in a large orchestra and that a violin, viola, and cello are each playing at the same time.  Even tougher, I have a track of two friends who are concert violinists.  They both play different brands of violins and each has a slightly different timbre.  I want the DAC to be able to tell me that there are two violins of different timbres playing and the DAVE provides this delineation.  
  
 What I do isn't the only way to assess a DAC but it has been effective for me and it has allowed me to more easily discern even subtle differences that when added up, can be very meaningful.  For some criteria, with the right track, you can tell within a few seconds how good a DAC is.  For other things, like coherence and flow, it can take a long time to figure out that one DAC is better than another.  Because speakers are better at imaging and depth, this would be the best way to test these areas.  Because headphones are often better at presenting subtle detail, I believe both should be used when possible.  One also has to remember that each of these criteria are influenced by every other component in your audio chain and so what you're really trying to do when evaluating a DAC is gauging how well that DAC will fit in your system.  This is why listening to equipment at shows is not a great way to evaluate anything.
  
 For one of the best primers on listening that I have come across, I will direct you to Rob's post.  It doesn't get better than this:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/800264/watts-up#post_12457933


----------



## Crgreen

Your methodology is impeccable. Unfortunately, I'd lose the will to live.


----------



## Beolab

crgreen said:


> Your methodology is impeccable. Unfortunately, I'd lose the will to live.




?? :S 

Why are you feeling like that?


----------



## lojay

Roy, that post is absolutely a gem. Those who have been following you on this thread and on PMs have really had the benefit of your enlightening approach to audio.

In short, what I have learned from you is that if you want to be able to distinguish the subtle differences in DACs, you need to use good live unamped recordings and have a good ear as to what to look for.

Being able to articulate these distinguishing factors helps. I find the DAVE a clear winner compared to the Yggy and MSB Analog in almost every aspect, but the most audible and easily repeatable aspect it distinguishes itself in blind tests is the front to back layering or depth of live recordings. This makes the venue sound less compressed or two dimensional. It is quite unmistakable.

I think one of the trickiest aspects of comparing DACs is detail. Once one hears a musical detail he has never heard on one DAC, perhaps the opening of a singer's lips before she sings or a particular instrument starting to play amidst an orchestra, he tends to be able to pick up the very same detail on the other, possibly inferior DAC. To this day, I cannot definitely say that the DAVE is substantially more detailed than another DAC or so forth. Rather, I prefer calling the DAVE sublimely realistic and clear. In other words, what the DAVE does better than the other DACs I have owned is that it presents music with clarity, even if you can hear the same bits of detail in other DACs the DAVE presents the whole picture with great clarity.

Finally, the elusive aspect of tonality and warmth. I don't suppose that everyone enjoys realism and would prefer added warmth. To my ears I used to find warmth as a panacea for digititis, or digital sheen that brings this artificiality to music reproduction. The MSB Analog does this pretty well, at the sacrifice of precision. The DAVE on the other hand is not warm or clinical, but it is absolutely clear whilst not having any digital sheen. I think that is very much a feat.


----------



## Crgreen

beolab said:


> ?? :S
> 
> Why are you feeling like that?




Because I can't take hi-if quite so seriously. I'd find it rather soul destroying and would spend a great deal of time listening to the sound of equipment rather than music. I accept of course, that many others derive great pleasure from doing that kind of thing. I'd rather just listen to great music through my Dave, without disection. That way, madness lies


----------



## STR-1

paulchiu said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> I have not compare the difference between the Alpha analog to digital line with the DAVE.  I started with the Anaconda Helix over 10 years ago and there were improvements to that line versus the Alpha analog, which is remarkable as the latter is half the cost of the Helix.  The Alpha analog has an even quieter background, better isolation and 3D sound versus the Helix.
> With the Sigma, these factors improve even more.  The DAVE as is already scares you with the 3D sound, the isolation and the quiet stage.  The Sigma and Alpha cables will let even more of the DAVE through.
> ...



Thanks, Paul. I might give the Alpha Analogue another try but am wondering whether the Digital would be better. The Shunyata website does after recommend their Digital power cords for use with dacs. Cheers


----------



## paulchiu

str-1 said:


> Thanks, Paul. I might give the Alpha Analogue another try but am wondering whether the Digital would be better. The Shunyata website does after recommend their Digital power cords for use with dacs. Cheers


 
 Hi Steve,
  
 Yes, the site does offer that suggestion but it depends on the application of your DAC.  
  
 I spoke extensively with the tech and sales managers at Shunyata and they recommend for my use the Sigma Analog because the DAVE, although digital, is analog out.  Based on customer and dealer feedback and their in-house comparisons, the Sigma Analog is preferred over the Sigma Digital or Sigma HC on DACs.
  
 Just to confirm all the talks, I compared for weeks samples of the Analog and Digital cords with my DAVE and other DACs both through headphones and speakers.  I returned the Digital cords.
  
 Connecting the Analog to the wall is already efficient but if you must, use a Triton V2 or the smaller MPC12 conditioners.
  
 I use a Sigma HC from wall to a Triton V2 power conditioner.  I do not power any computer devices on the Triton.  (Macs, Dells, routers, modems, hard drives, etc.)  I use a MPC-12C for those.
  
 paul
  
 #1500


----------



## Kakki

x relic x said:


> Where did you get this information? I'm pretty sure Chord doesn't outsource off the shelf hardware for its gear.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3120#post_12602887
> 
> ...



 

Relic, you can easily confirm the fact if you open your Dave!

Or you can see some of the pics of Dave inside in the following page (in Japanese)
There, some of the parts used in Dave are identified from the pics.

http://community.phileweb.com/mypage/1943/

You can see LME49990 is used with 2N2222A/2N2907A transistors in the output stage. Actually, Rob himself already clarified that op amps are used with discrete class A output stage in Dave. 

Also, this is not shown in the pics but 2 OP07Cs are used before the output stage.

LME49990 is one of the best op amps available today and OP07C is a well-known zero-drift op amp. So this is not to my surprise that they are chosen for Dave. But there are many other very good op amps as well. So I'm really curious what were the reasons that they are selected.


----------



## JaZZ

lojay said:


> I think one of the trickiest aspects of comparing DACs is detail. Once one hears a musical detail he has never heard on one DAC, perhaps the opening of a singer's lips before she sings or a particular instrument starting to play amidst an orchestra, he tends to be able to pick up the very same detail on the other, possibly inferior DAC. To this day, I cannot definitely say that the DAVE is substantially more detailed than another DAC or so forth. Rather, I prefer calling the DAVE sublimely realistic and clear. In other words, what the DAVE does better than the other DACs I have owned is that it presents music with clarity, even if you can hear the same bits of detail in other DACs the DAVE presents the whole picture with great clarity.


 
   
 I agree with this observation: The DAVE doesn't highlight detail, it just presents it more accurately. So the (quasi-)perfectly rendered overtones e.g. on violins and wind instruments makes them sound more lifelike and organic. Surprisingly this comes with an unmatched smoothness of the whole sound (which is almost liquid-smooth).
  
  
 Quote:


crgreen said:


> Because I can't take hi-if quite so seriously. I'd find it rather soul destroying and would spend a great deal of time listening to the sound of equipment rather than music. I accept of course, that many others derive great pleasure from doing that kind of thing. I'd rather just listen to great music through my Dave, without dissection. That way, madness lies


 
  
 I absolutely understand your approach. So maybe I'm somewhat in between. I don't have the necessary restlessness (anymore) to audition numerous equipment for finding the optimum. But I'm glad that there are trustworthy people like Roy _(romaz)_ doing that for me and the community in such a diligent and serious way. I still take the quality of music reproduction very seriously, as seriously as the music itself (and I heavily lean toward «serious» music).


----------



## Crgreen

Romaz does indeed do a remarkable job. But I note that even he displays a tone of impatience from time to time, and would rather just get on and use his hifi for the purpose for which it was intended.


----------



## JaZZ

crgreen said:


> Romaz does indeed do a remarkable job. But I note that even he displays a tone of impatience from time to time, and *would rather just get on and use his hifi for the purpose for which it was intended*.


 
  
 I'm glad he doesn't.


----------



## rgs9200m

Extraordinary write up Romaz. Thanks.  I would also add lack of fatigue and the related ability to handle fatiguing, glare-prone recordings. But of course many argue that a DAC should be faithful to what it is fed. But it's a matter of being practical if that's your choice of music/recordings.
 And of course, one could resort to a forgiving headphone like an HD650 as a solution. (I do that often.)
 By the way, has anyone tried a DAVE/HD650 combination? Thanks again.


----------



## Ampus

Thank you Roy for reinforcing my points of view in an eloquent way - the SQ difference among high end gears, especially those within the same brands, is SUBTLE. It takes considerable effort (in your case 3 weeks for the total DAC's) and some brain breaking-in to detect these subtleties. Furthermore, one clearly has to pay dearly to obtain the last bits of musical nirvana.

Funny how you and I have a few things in common. I play classical music on the piano; however, mine is a Yamaha, not Steinway, but again you have to pay much more for the small SQ improvement.


----------



## adyc

I would like to seek the other users' opinion of preamp function of DAVE in a 2 channel speaker system. Is it digital or analogue? I always use a preamp with my past DACs as the volume control of past DACs are crap. Few weeks ago, I decided to try to use DAVE preamp function and expected my preamp bests DAVE preamp. Surprisingly, DAVE volume control is very transparent. Actually, I think the sound is slightly better by using DAVE volume control.
  
 Now, I have been listening without preamp in the chain and I do not miss my preamp. DAVE is such an amazing value. It saves a lot of money as I do not need to buy a power cord and interconnect for the preamp.
  
 I would like to hear other opinions on the preamp function of DAVE.


----------



## Deftone

> Mojo gives you at least 80% of DAVE's performance.


 
  
 thats quite the statement
  
 so you could say it goes something like this
  
 1. *Mojo* 80% *£399*
 2. *Hugo TT* 90% *£2,995*
 3. *Dave* 100% *£7,995*


----------



## Beolab

deftone said:


> thats quite the statement
> 
> so you could say it goes something like this
> 
> ...


----------



## fdhfdy

adyc said:


> DAVE is such an amazing value.



It matches well with chords pwr amp.only if you can afford another 15000$.


----------



## ecwl

rgs9200m said:


> By the way, has anyone tried a DAVE/HD650 combination? Thanks again.



I use the combo all the time because HD650 is the only headphone that fits my small head. Ether C is too heavy. HD800 is too big. Haven't tried HE-1000. But I usually use DAVE with speakers. Only late night listening with HD650. So I'm not a head-Fi connoisseur. Sounds great.


----------



## adyc

fdhfdy said:


> It matches well with chords pwr amp.only if you can afford another 15000$.




My power amp is VAC 450 iQ. I love them to death. I will not swap them with other power amps. Maybe until Rob comes out with the digital power amp...


----------



## ecwl

adyc said:


> Now, I have been listening without preamp in the chain and I do not miss my preamp. DAVE is such an amazing value.
> 
> I would like to hear other opinions on the preamp function of DAVE.



I got rid of my Sanders preamplifier which I used to find to be superbly transparent because I realized DAVE direct to amplifier is better.


----------



## rkt31

if 100 watts RMS are sufficient, benchmark ahb2 power amp must be a very good match for Dave. this is touted to be the quietest and most transparent power amp on earth. the best feature is the selectable gain mode. low gain mode allows the digital preamp of Dave or hugo to operate in higher output range thus using the high output capability of modern chord dacs in a better way. I use it with hugo and I would say this amp is like transparent window. it adds or subtracts nothing from the signal, just cleanly boosts the voltage.


----------



## hifihp

deftone said:


> thats quite the statement
> 
> so you could say it goes something like this
> 
> ...


 
 How about Hugo?


----------



## lovethatsound

hifihp said:


> How about Hugo?
> [/quote I really wouldn't pay any notice to that table hifihp,it's very misleading.


----------



## Mojo ideas

deftone said:


> thats quite the statement
> 
> so you could say it goes something like this
> 
> ...


I think we've got it about right in product terms then!


----------



## stvc

beolab said:


> OT:
> 
> As i mentioned earlier last week, that i would receive the newly released DHC 5N Silver cable Prion4S , including some other goodies:
> 
> ...





beolab said:


> OT:
> 
> As i mentioned earlier last week, that i would receive the newly released DHC 5N Silver cable Prion4S , including some other goodies:
> 
> ...





How Long required for he prion to burn in?


----------



## raypin

Mmm...I wish the Dave had more than 1 headphone out. That's one feature that I miss from my Chord TT. More HP out = more enjoyable top-notch HP experience. Chord TT is 90% of Chord Dave ..........EN-Ohh. Dear Lord...my Grado PS 1000 never sounded so good.....damn. YoYo Ma made me cry.....

Question: is it safe to use a power bank with the Dave? There are now power banks with AC power output. Tia.


----------



## bmichels

romaz said:


> It appears expectation bias is certainly at play here.  There is another group of very respectable audiophiles who are presently doing a DAC shootout between a H*ugo, DAVE and TotalDac d1-dual* which are being used to feed both a BHSE/SR009 and what appears to be a very high-end speaker setup consisting of late model B&W speakers, Mark Levinson monoblocks, etc.  A Macbook Pro running Roon was used to feed each DAC.  During their blind testing with the BHSE/SR009, they have indicated that *no one in their group of 4 individuals were able to discern any difference at all among these 3 DACs ....*


 
  
 Just to correct the Romaz's priceless writing, we could in fact hear a difference between the HUGO and the 2 other DACs, but we could not hear a difference between the DAVE and the TotalDAC.


----------



## Beolab

stvc said:


> How Long required for he prion to burn in?




It required atleast 20h to start sound descent, then aditionally 100h to make the best HeadPhone cable i have heard. The crystals in the silver needs to form before it starts to deliver, thats for sure. It sounded a little numb and dry , and the sound sounded distant at the very first, but then it opened up, and the grain and vail vanished. The bass, mid and treable sounds balanced and playing in harmony, so you can listen 15-20% lower than you use to. The bass builds up a sense of pre tension in the air before the impact comes. 
It is so calm and smooth, so i think it made more impact than many of the expensive high end modules/products i have baught trough the years. It sounds like you have baught a new ultra high end DAC or similar. 

Just contact Peter @ DHC and say hi from me and Roy ( Romaz) and i can ashure you he will give you a nice deal on your Prion , but you have to wait 3-4 month, but it is worth the time and every penny.


----------



## Ampus

bmichels said:


> Just to correct the Romaz's priceless writing, we could in fact hear a difference between the HUGO and the 2 other DACs, but we could not hear a difference between the DAVE and the TotalDAC.




Bmichels,

I would be curious to hear your assessment of DAVE vs Mojo. I don't have Hugo but the overall consensus appears to favor Mojo over Hugo. I am also interested in hearing your opinion on DAVE vs TotalDac, especially on 2-channel set up.

By the way, did you ever get DAVE for your personal use? I know that you have been following this forum for awhile. At one point, you didn't think that DAVE was that much better than your Hugo; however, that was based on a limited Hifi show, not home, audition.


----------



## JaZZ

ampus said:


> ...the overall consensus appears to favor Mojo over Hugo.


 
  
 I don't think that's true – and certainly not in my case: I prefer the Hugo to the Mojo, although not by much. With some equalizing in favor of the treble the Mojo sounds almost identical, but still the Hugo seems to sound a tiny bit more open, transparent and refined.
  
 For me the DAVE was an even bigger step from the Hugo (and Mojo) than the Hugo was from McCormack UDP-1 and Bel Canto DAC2, both well regarded and still not too outdated.


----------



## stvc

beolab said:


> It required atleast 20h to start sound descent, then aditionally 100h to make the best HeadPhone cable i have heard. The crystals in the silver needs to form before it starts to deliver, thats for sure. It sounded a little numb and dry , and the sound sounded distant at the very first, but then it opened up, and the grain and vail vanished. The bass, mid and treable sounds balanced and playing in harmony, so you can listen 15-20% lower than you use to. The bass builds up a sense of pre tension in the air before the impact comes.
> It is so calm and smooth, so i think it made more impact than many of the expensive high end modules/products i have baught trough the years. It sounds like you have baught a new ultra high end DAC or similar.
> 
> Just contact Peter @ DHC and say hi from me and Roy ( Romaz) and i can ashure you he will give you a nice deal on your Prion , but you have to wait 3-4 month, but it is worth the time and every penny.




I already have one with me, but a bit surprise for it sound on the initial, ****ty sound but you are right, they are much better now after 24 hour. Will let it run for another few day, thx!


----------



## lovethatsound

ampus said:


> Bmichels,
> 
> I would be curious to hear your assessment of DAVE vs Mojo. I don't have Hugo but the overall consensus appears to favor Mojo over Hugo. I am also interested in hearing your opinion on DAVE vs TotalDac, especially on 2-channel set up.
> 
> By the way, did you ever get DAVE for your personal use? I know that you have been following this forum for awhile. At one point, you didn't think that DAVE was that much better than your Hugo; however, that was based on a limited Hifi show, not home, audition.


Hi Ampus
If i remember right bmichels got to test the Hugo tt,and said he could hear no different between the Hugo and the Hugo tt.You seem to have sort of problem of not being able to hear the difference 's between the mojo and dave.I can hear the difference 's between the mojo,Hugo,hugo tt,Dave,by just using a stock hd800 headphone,and the Dave is noticeably better.IF you want to hear you're music in the most realistic way,the Dave at the moment is the best tool for doing that on this planet.If you like your music in a different flavour,then you need to be looking at different equipment.


----------



## analogmusic

mojo ideas said:


> I think we've got it about right in product terms then!


 
  
  


deftone said:


> thats quite the statement
> 
> so you could say it goes something like this
> 
> ...


 
  
 How I wish this were true. I own Mojo and Hugo, and Dave sounds quite different to my ears, much superior !


----------



## railcannon

The spec sheet saids DAVE Headphone Output is 1%THD at 6.8Vrms
  
 I think DAVE has worse Headphone Out stage than mojo which has 3Vrms 0.00017% THD+N although DAVE specification is measured at twice higher output voltage.
  
 Of course, It doesn't make a sence. I Want to know the appropriate Headphone Output Voltage meets DAC Analog Out specification 127.5dB (AWT) THD+N.


----------



## Mojo ideas

railcannon said:


> The spec sheet saids DAVE Headphone Output is 1%THD at 6.8Vrms
> 
> I think DAVE has worse Headphone Out stage than mojo which has 3Vrms 0.00017% THD+N although DAVE specification is measured at twice higher output voltage.
> 
> Of course, It doesn't make a sence. I Want to know the appropriate Headphone Output Voltage meets DAC Analog Out specification 127.5dB (AWT) THD+N.


 I think you should read the specifications in a little more detail. Dave 6.8Volts RMS reading at 1 percent distortion is telling you the clipping point of Dave ie at 6.8 volts it's starting to clip and the distortion rises to 1percent. The usual distortion measurement of Dave is more than ten times better than mojo at around 0.000015 percent when Daves output is below its clipping point.


----------



## Rob Watts

railcannon said:


> The spec sheet saids DAVE Headphone Output is 1%THD at 6.8Vrms
> 
> I think DAVE has worse Headphone Out stage than mojo which has 3Vrms 0.00017% THD+N although DAVE specification is measured at twice higher output voltage.
> 
> Of course, It doesn't make a sence. I Want to know the appropriate Headphone Output Voltage meets DAC Analog Out specification 127.5dB (AWT) THD+N.


 
 The direct comparison is:
  
 OP volts 1% 300 ohms 
 Dave: 6.8v
 Mojo: 5.4v
  
 THD and noise 3v
 Dave: 0.00009%
 Mojo: 0.00017%
  
 The -127.5 dB figure is at 2.5v RMS ref to max OP voltage. Its the same as the dynamic range, so you get the same figure at 2.5v as at -60dB.
  
 THD gives a different picture:
 THD 2.5V RMS 300 ohm
 Dave: 0.000007%
 Mojo: 0.0001% 0.000007%0.000007%0.000007%
  
 Rob


----------



## Ampus

lovethatsound said:


> Hi Ampus
> If i remember right bmichels got to test the Hugo tt,and said he could hear no different between the Hugo and the Hugo tt.You seem to have sort of problem of not being able to hear the difference 's between the mojo and dave.I can hear the difference 's between the mojo,Hugo,hugo tt,Dave,by just using a stock hd800 headphone,and the Dave is noticeably better.IF you want to hear you're music in the most realistic way,the Dave at the moment is the best tool for doing that on this planet.If you like your music in a different flavour,then you need to be looking at different equipment.




Lovethatsound,

I never said that I could not hear the differences between Mojo and DAVE. What I said was that the differences were subtle. I won't belabor the point anymore as you can go back and read my posts if you like.

For your viewing pleasure, I copied and pasted Bmichel's old post on page 116 below

Bmichels
I have a question

offline
4,327 Posts. Joined 9/2012
Location: Brugge, Belgium
Quote:
Originally Posted by chordguy View Post

I saw the bit were he said "After 3 years of hesitations..... I JUST placed yesterday my deposit for my BHSE. This will be the last batch of the BHSE SE with the separate PSU. So I could not resist..." but saw no reference to his views on Dave?
​

Sorry for not reporting here. As I said in another thread my listening session was too short to make purchase decision and I will listen to DAVE again when i return to Europe in 2 weeks.

But I have to admit that i have been less impressed than I expected. May be I expected too much ? May be i need more listening time ?


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## Kakki

Rob, all, I have questions about the USB input of Dave.
  
 I got a question in our local hifi forum that providing clean 5V for Dave's USB input will improve the sound qulity.
 There are special USB cables having analog PSU to supply clean 5V. Example is as follows (in Japanese).
  
http://sv50.wadax.ne.jp/~ay-denshi-com//articles/html/products/detail.php?product_id=90
  
 Does Dave benefit from those cables? I read post #1410 by Romaz which says that the galvanic isolation is done not directly to the USB signals but to the I2S signals after the decoding... does this mean that the 5V from USB is also isolated so that above kind of product has no effect to Dave?
  
 Another question is about the USB and the optical input.
  
 Yesterday I carefully compare the USB / optical input of Dave and could not hear difference at all (which is good as I prefer optical).
  
 I remember that Rob once mentioned that USB input can be slightly better than optical. Is that because of the RF noise from the optical sensor that impacts the sound quality? I'm just curious what makes those 2 inputs different.


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## lovethatsound

Hi Ampus
point taken,i was referring to one of his early posts.But the rest of my post still applies,and i mean this in a nice way.Only you can decide if you want a Dave or if you want a different dac.Their are lots of posts on this thread,saying how good the Dave is,and to be honest very few people not liking it.Bmichels could not hear the difference between the Hugo and the Hugo tt,I and lots of other people can,just like i can hear a big difference between the mojo and the Dave.I wish you all the luck in world,and hope you find the dac you're looking for☺


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## railcannon

Thanks to your reply! I just worried about DAVE's Headphone output stage that usually may cause degradation of performance. 
 Now I have a clear answer that clarifies I was wrong. NICE!
 Of cource, I'm Sorry about I can not afford to buy this AMAZING machine.
 But I believe just a question is free! Plz, Tell me It is ok :')


----------



## STR-1

paulchiu said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> Yes, the site does offer that suggestion but it depends on the application of your DAC.
> 
> ...



Paul, thanks. So, using a headphone direct into the Dave, you preferred Shunyata analogue to Shunyata digital? I guess then that Shunyata recommend digital for dac use when it is in a chain before preamp/amp? Sorry if the question is a little naive but I have little experience with full-chain audio systems and am just trying to better understand the role digital- and analogue-compatible kit play in such a system. 

Your point about listening to the Shunyata analogue for a few days before making a judgement is well made. The loan arrangement I had with the Shunyata cable was quite limited and circumstances meant that I had to return after one day, and I had been testing another power cable and a power regenerator at the same time. So, on reflection, I realise that I did not give the Shunyata a fair chance to prove itself. I'll see if I can get another loan. I think it will be some time before the dealer gets the digital version of the cable (Shunyata are currently changing their UK distributor).

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions. Steve


----------



## Rob Watts

kakki said:


> Rob, all, I have questions about the USB input of Dave.
> 
> I got a question in our local hifi forum that providing clean 5V for Dave's USB input will improve the sound qulity.
> There are special USB cables having analog PSU to supply clean 5V. Example is as follows (in Japanese).
> ...


 
  
 No don't worry about the USB VBUS +5v, as it too is isolated from Dave.
  
 If you want the best possible SQ then listen with a lap-top with battery operation - but like the difference between optical and USB, its in my bottom scale of SQ differences - audible only via a very careful AB listening test, and will having no significant difference in the enjoyment of music. In practice, when just enjoying music, I don't care about battery usage on the lap-top, or whether its USB or optical - they all work identically from the musicality POV. And at the end of the day, that's all that matters.
  
 The technical reasons between optical and USB is that optical has complete RF isolation - matched with USB when fed via a lap-top in battery mode and no ground connection - but USB has slightly better timing as the source clock is Dave's local clock, so no re-timing issues via USB.
  
 Rob


----------



## ecwl

I have to say while we all hear music and DACs differently, I think the general commonality I see amongst the people who say they don't hear a big difference between Chord Mojo and Chord DAVE or Chord DAVE and TotalDAC (or other similar comparisons) is probably the use of additional electronics downstream. I understand that people have their favorite preamplifier/headphone amplifier, etc. And because of system setup reasons, e.g. need for phono input, driving electrostat HP, they may have to have their preamplifier/headphone amplifier in their system. And perhaps that's a good reason to save the money and not upgrade to DAVE if they don't hear a big difference.
  
 But from my perspective, I hear a clear difference between Chord DAVE and Chord Mojo when I listen straight through my headphones. That experience made me realize my Sanders Magtech amplifier probably is not as transparent as I would have liked (although one can argue it could be my speakers/speaker cable/interconnect). While there is still a clear difference between Chord DAVE and Chord Mojo, going through my power amplifier and speaker system does reduce the difference slightly, particularly, in revealing some of the low-level details that the Chord DAVE provides (that are audible through HP). While I have never compared Chord DAVE and Chord Mojo through a preamplifier, I can say putting either through a Krell 280p or Sanders preamplifier (or even Oppo HA-1 analog input) dramatically reduces the sound quality to a point that I would say the difference between with and without the preamplifier is bigger in pretty much any speaker system I heard than the difference between DAVE and Mojo through direct headphone.
  
 I know some people would say, well, that's just because the preamplifiers I tried are not transparent enough but other owners of their pre-existing preamplifier/HP amp are much higher quality components so that's not the issue. Well, a good friend owns the MSB Diamond DAC IV and he used to have the Krell Evolution Two as a preamplifier and he eventually switched to the passive attenuator that comes with the Diamond DAC IV because we found the Krell Evolution Two to be not transparent enough.
  
 Shortly after DAVE came out, there were a flurry of posts in this forum saying that what comes after the DAVE (referring to headphone cables and headphones) are more important than what comes before the DAVE (referring to power cords and USB/Toslink cables). I think this particularly applies in speaker systems.


----------



## Kakki

rob watts said:


> No don't worry about the USB VBUS +5v, as it too is isolated from Dave.
> 
> If you want the best possible SQ then listen with a lap-top with battery operation - but like the difference between optical and USB, its in my bottom scale of SQ differences - audible only via a very careful AB listening test, and will having no significant difference in the enjoyment of music. In practice, when just enjoying music, I don't care about battery usage on the lap-top, or whether its USB or optical - they all work identically from the musicality POV. And at the end of the day, that's all that matters.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you Rob, for the clarification. Yes, the most important thing is the musicality... to simply enjoy the music.
 I enjoy music as never before since I got Dave in my house. Thank you for such a great product.


----------



## paulchiu

str-1 said:


> Paul, thanks. So, using a headphone direct into the Dave, you preferred Shunyata analogue to Shunyata digital? I guess then that Shunyata recommend digital for dac use when it is in a chain before preamp/amp? Sorry if the question is a little naive but I have little experience with full-chain audio systems and am just trying to better understand the role digital- and analogue-compatible kit play in such a system.
> 
> Your point about listening to the Shunyata analogue for a few days before making a judgement is well made. The loan arrangement I had with the Shunyata cable was quite limited and circumstances meant that I had to return after one day, and I had been testing another power cable and a power regenerator at the same time. So, on reflection, I realise that I did not give the Shunyata a fair chance to prove itself. I'll see if I can get another loan. I think it will be some time before the dealer gets the digital version of the cable (Shunyata are currently changing their UK distributor).
> 
> Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions. Steve




Hi Steve 
I imagine the sigma digital power cord is ideal for something like an aurender w20 digital server. This feeds digitally into a DAVE. I have tried this and in this application, the music is improved over using a sigma analog cord. 

Paul


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## raypin

Mmmm....if you have already invested, say, 20000 usd in quality headphones/in-ears or 50000 usd in new speakers, would you buy the Mojo and call it a day? I mean, really? I mean, really really?


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## STR-1

paulchiu said:


> Hi Steve
> I imagine the sigma digital power cord is ideal for something like an aurender w20 digital server. This feeds digitally into a DAVE. I have tried this and in this application, the music is improved over using a sigma analog cord.
> 
> Paul



Thanks. I'll get that loan Alpha Analogue back and stop bothering you. Cheers


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## agisthos

Rob what sort of compromises were made to fit the Chord casework. DAVE is much better than Hugo, but I imagine it's still not an engineers paradise to make things fit.
  
 Probably a touchy question, because I am basically asking what performance was left on the table. Or maybe there was none left on table, just extra hard work on that PCB layout...


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## paulchiu

str-1 said:


> Thanks. I'll get that loan Alpha Analogue back and stop bothering you. Cheers


 
  
 Hi Steve,
  
 It's no bother at all.  Enjoy the adventure.  
  
 Paul


----------



## x RELIC x

agisthos said:


> Rob what sort of compromises were made to fit the Chord casework. DAVE is much better than Hugo, but I imagine it's still not an engineers paradise to make things fit.
> 
> Probably a touchy question, because I am basically asking what performance was left on the table. Or maybe there was none left on table, just extra hard work on that PCB layout...




I'm not there that there were any..... 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1650#post_12341081




rob watts said:


> On price with Dave it was fairly simple. *I designed Dave to suit a sound quality and a performance goal - my own targets, not something Chord was setting. There was no price point set or determined - everything was engineering driven*. Once the design was finished, Chord added up the BOM, used their usual multipliers, and that was the price.
> 
> But I have just gotten back on a small press and dealers trip, and that was interesting. We popped into a dealer who had sold a few Mojo's, and we had a few hours spare. He was a tube/vinyl very high end dealer and I happened to have a Dave in my bag (I hand carry Dave with me on my travels for music in the hotel). So we listened to it, and we got the same reaction you had - every piece of music was spine tingling good - even 1960's Rolling Stones. The dealer said he had never heard digital ever sound like that - indeed, he said it was actually better than his beloved vinyl!
> 
> ...


----------



## agisthos

x relic x said:


> I'm not there that there were any.....
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1650#post_12341081


 
  
 Rob is obviously talking about components cost there. I am talking about PCB layout and placement. I'm sure he would prefer to design a DAC for a 44cm wide case and have the luxury of full size boards.


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## x RELIC x

agisthos said:


> Rob is obviously talking about components cost there. I am talking about PCB layout and placement. I'm sure he would prefer to design a DAC for a 44cm wide case and have the luxury of full size boards.




I'm not so sure. As you can see Chord has many different sized components from tall to thick and thin. The DAVE itself could easily be larger given its footprint within the accompanying stand. Doesn't look to me like the design was restricted. Of course I'm interested in the feedback from Rob as well on this, but _to me _it seems he like he drove the design for SQ over anything else.


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## Rob Watts

The short answer is small is beautiful - small gives better RF filtering, shorter path lengths, better vibration control with everything clamped onto a solid aluminium block.
  
 So I can't recall any compromises needed to suit the chassis size.
  
 Rob


----------



## Sunya

adyc said:


> My power amp is VAC 450 iQ. I love them to death. I will not swap them with other power amps. Maybe until Rob comes out with the digital power amp...


 
  
 Given the high gain of the 450iQs, at what level do you usually have DAVE's VC?


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## EVOLVIST

You know, I was thinking, I can understand the DAVE being the price that it is, but for the life of me I cannot wrap my head around the stand being that much. I could have a custom stand made for a fraction of the price. Though pleasing to the eye, that is a lot of scratch.

Observation/vent over.

Waiting for the DAVE to get here.


----------



## Toolman

Anyone think the DAVE stand/rack made it difficult to plug your headphone cables in?


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## Christer

evolvist said:


> You know, I was thinking, I can understand the DAVE being the price that it is, but for the life of me I cannot wrap my head around the stand being that much. I could have a custom stand made for a fraction of the price. Though pleasing to the eye, that is a lot of scratch.
> 
> Observation/vent over.
> 
> Waiting for the DAVE to get here.


 

 I still think DAVE is firmly  in the "silly" price range especially  taking  the recent discussion not exactly denied by Chord of the relative  SQ differences between their DACs Mojo,Hugo and DAVE into account.  And frankly as far as the  absolutelty ridiculously priced ,stand is concerned a bag of lentils or rice will do the same job for a far more reasonable price than most such products aimed more at  vanity than any real SQ benefits at all.
 Brown rice is healthier than white but will do exactly the same excellent job as brown rice used  as a "beanbag".
 PS. Hope you will enjoy your DAVE once you get it.


----------



## Mojo ideas

evolvist said:


> You know, I was thinking, I can understand the DAVE being the price that it is, but for the life of me I cannot wrap my head around the stand being that much. I could have a custom stand made for a fraction of the price. Though pleasing to the eye, that is a lot of scratch.
> 
> Observation/vent over.
> 
> Waiting for the DAVE to get here.


 Please try to understand the retail price. It comprises of manufacturing costs and profit, retailers and distributors margins. I can confirm to you all that we at Chord Electronics use the same costs and margin factors across everything we make and sell. So if something appears expensive it genuinely is expensive to manufacture. You might look at the stand and think you could get it made for half the price. Well I doubt you really could design then make it in relatively small volumes to the quality standards we apply then market and distribute it world wide. So I ask you look hard at the stand as it's an absolute bargain at the price it is as big chunks of precision machines aircraft grade HE 9 aluminium are far from inexpensive. Sorry to sound as I do in this but comments like those made about our pricing are so inaccurate that I felt it necessary to chip in.


----------



## smial1966

Having owned a Chord Hugo, Hugo TT, Mojo and most recently DAVE, I can categorically state that the sonic performance of my latest acquisition easily trounces the aforementioned. Having purchased a number of well regarded DACs (Metrum Hex, Ayre Codex, Goldmund Telos) I can authoritively endorse the thread comments others have made regarding the sublime intricacy and lifelike reproductive qualities of DAVE. I always aspire to create a 'live' experience with my headamp/DAC setup and with a good recording, be it Redbook or high resolution, the Chord DAVE brings me closer to audio nirvana than anything that I've ever listened to before. 




christer said:


> I still think DAVE is firmly  in the "silly" price range especially  taking  the recent discussion not exactly denied by Chord of the relative  SQ differences between their DACs Mojo,Hugo and DAVE into account.  And frankly as far as the  absolutelty ridiculously priced ,stand is concerned a bag of lentils or rice will do the same job for a far more reasonable price than most such products aimed more at  vanity than any real SQ benefits at all.
> Brown rice is healthier than white but will do exactly the same excellent job as brown rice used  as a "beanbag".
> PS. Hope you will enjoy your DAVE once you get it.


----------



## Ampus

raypin said:


> Mmmm....if you have already invested, say, 20000 usd in quality headphones/in-ears or 50000 usd in new speakers, would you buy the Mojo and call it a day? I mean, really? I mean, really really?




Yes, really! Don't fall into the fallacy that expensive things are always better. Didn't you read Rob's advice about "Don't listen with your wallet"?

I do prefer DAVE over Mojo but, again, for its price the Mojo is hard to beat. $13,000 is a lots of money, especially where you live, but if you have money to burn, it's your prerogative.


----------



## EVOLVIST

mojo ideas said:


> Please try to understand the retail price. It comprises of manufacturing costs and profit, retailers and distributors margins. I can confirm to you all that we at Chord Electronics use the same costs and margin factors across everything we make and sell. So if something appears expensive it genuinely is expensive to manufacture. You might look at the stand and think you could get it made for half the price. Well I doubt you really could design then make it in relatively small volumes to the quality standards we apply then market and distribute it world wide. So I ask you look hard at the stand as it's an absolute bargain at the price it is as big chunks of precision machines aircraft grade HE 9 aluminium are far from inexpensive. Sorry to sound as I do in this but comments like those made about our pricing are so inaccurate that I felt it necessary to chip in.


 
  
 Nah, it's cool, John...and I feel you, I really do. I couldn't presume to make a _better_ stand, only a stand that would work. Regardless, I've bought the DAVE and it will be shipped to me tomorrow. I am happy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 In other news, since I have you on the line, what was the thought about adding the pre-emphasis function, where it "de-emphasizes" these old CD flags? It hasn't been a common thing with CD audio in a long time, but boy this function is a DAC is super cool! I guess I can listen to those "Holy Grail"_ Dark Side of the Moon _and _Abbey Road_ black triangle releases with confidence.


----------



## JaZZ

evolvist said:


> In other news, since I have you on the line, what was the thought about adding the *pre-emphasis* function, where it "de-emphasizes" these old CD flags? It hasn't been a common thing with CD audio in a long time, but boy this function is a DAC is super cool! I guess I can listen to those "Holy Grail"_ Dark Side of the Moon _and _Abbey Road_ black triangle releases with confidence.


 
  
 Now that you mention it, I indeed found it in the DAVE manual. I liked the sound quality of few CDs in my collection that were pre-emphasized and from there deduced that it was a beneficial feature. Theoretically it is. Sadly there's no corresponding indication on the display.


----------



## Mojo ideas

evolvist said:


> Nah, it's cool, John...and I feel you, I really do. I couldn't presume to make a _better_ stand, only a stand that would work. Regardless, I've bought the DAVE and it will be shipped to me tomorrow. I am happy.
> 
> 
> In other news, since I have you on the line, what was the thought about adding the pre-emphasis function, where it "de-emphasizes" these old CD flags? It hasn't been a common thing with CD audio in a long time, but boy this function is a DAC is super cool! I guess I can listen to those "Holy Grail"_ Dark Side of the Moon_ and _Abbey Road_ black triangle releases with confidence. :atsmile:


 Rob always strives to keep as many playing options open as possible and with Dave that includes older pre emphasised CDs too for those of us with CD collections going back a good few years.


----------



## romaz

ampus said:


> Yes, really! Don't fall into the fallacy that expensive things are always better. Didn't you read Rob's advice about "Don't listen with your wallet"?
> 
> I do prefer DAVE over Mojo but, again, for its price the Mojo is hard to beat. $13,000 is a lots of money, especially where you live, but if you have money to burn, it's your prerogative.


 
 Here's how Rob feels about the Mojo:
  
_"I was kind of annoyed that some people were comparing it to $100 DACs when the true competitors were $100K."_
  
 It outperforms many DACs more expensive than the DAVE so no shame in using the Mojo for a high-end setup.  If it works for you, go for it.


----------



## EVOLVIST

mojo ideas said:


> Rob always strives to keep as many playing options open as possible and with Dave that includes older pre emphasised CDs too for those of us with CD collections going back a good few years.


 
  
 That is just the coolest thing EVER!
  
 I inherited a bunch of classical CDs dating back to the early '80s, and it was always too much of a pain to break them out because of pre-emphasis. I could be in for a whole new world now, because most of them are long out of print.


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## bigfatpaulie

I'm nearly positive this has been covered but what does everyone do with their DAVE when not in use?
  
 Do you use the power switch on the back on the standby button on the remote?  How often do you turn your DAVE on/off?


----------



## JaZZ

bigfatpaulie said:


> I'm nearly positive this has been covered but what does everyone do with their DAVE when not in use?
> 
> Do you use the power switch on the back on the standby button on the remote?  How often do you turn your DAVE on/off?


 
  
 As soon as I have the desire to listen to music, I turn it on (no warm-up phase considered). I turn it off when I leave the house; otherwise mostly before I go to sleep.


----------



## adyc

sunya said:


> Given the high gain of the 450iQs, at what level do you usually have DAVE's VC?




-15dB


----------



## bigfatpaulie

jazz said:


> As soon as I have the desire to listen to music, I turn it on (no warm-up phase considered). I turn it off when I leave the house; otherwise mostly before I go to sleep.


 
  
 So it's on/off once a day then?  Do you use the switch or the remote to turn it off/on?


----------



## pkcpga

bigfatpaulie said:


> I'm nearly positive this has been covered but what does everyone do with their DAVE when not in use?
> 
> Do you use the power switch on the back on the standby button on the remote?  How often do you turn your DAVE on/off?




For myself I use the remote while in the house to turn on or off when using and if leaving for a while or going to sleep I switch it off.


----------



## JaZZ

bigfatpaulie said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > As soon as I have the desire to listen to music, I turn it on (no warm-up phase considered). I turn it off when I leave the house; otherwise mostly before I go to sleep.
> ...


 
  
 Mostly, yes – unless I leave the house after a listening session and come back for another one. My remote control is in the original box, I never use it.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

pkcpga said:


> For myself I use the remote while in the house to turn on or off when using and if leaving for a while or going to sleep I switch it off.


 
  
  
 Thanks.  So you really only have it on when it use and in standby when not and fully off at night.  Much appreciated. 
  


jazz said:


> Mostly, yes – unless I leave the house after a listening session and come back for another one. My remote control is in the original box, I never use it.


 
  
 So you're an all or nothing guy   Thank you.


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## rgs9200m

I have about a few hundred CDs I bought by 1989. They sound fine to me, actually better as a whole than newer ones, so I hold on to them.


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## EVOLVIST

rgs9200m said:


> I have about a few hundred CDs I bought by 1989. They sound fine to me, actually better as a whole than newer ones, so I hold on to them.




Most assuredly because they are not dynamically compromised, as the trend to squash all dynamics and brickwall the music really began in the early '90s. CD technology, itself, really hasn't changed.


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## rgs9200m

Thanks for that. Sometimes the newer "remastered" pressings sound too clinical or HiFi and I keep reverting to my original CDs. These are the ones I tend to rip for my desktop system (a Hugo TT).


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## EVOLVIST

Yeah, most remasters are crap. Not all, if course, but "remaster" these days are mostly synonymous with LOUD and compressed. As a headphone listener this pisses me off to no end. Fatigue sets in fast with this "modern" trend.

If you don't already know about it, check out this link, and check your CDs.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/


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## rgs9200m

Yep, this drives me crazy sometimes also. Thanks for the link.


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## rgs9200m

Thanks for the great link! That's new to me and very useful. Best to you.


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## romaz

deftone said:


> thats quite the statement
> 
> so you could say it goes something like this
> 
> ...


 
 I don't think this is a good way to assess a DAC.  Only a fool would buy the DAVE based on this kind of a scale.  Once you get to a certain level of audio gear, it would be misguided to think that a component exists that is 2x better for half the price.  It never works that way.  Even though we should assess the performance criteria of a DAC or any other component in objective and quantitative terms, in the end, I think we buy a piece of equipment for its qualitative properties.
  
 As the owner of my medical practice, I am responsible for hiring my employees.  For a certain position, I will often get many applicants and of the lot, at least on paper, most appear competent.  In fact, they are all technically qualified as far as educational requirements go or they wouldn't be applying.  In the end, why does one person get hired and not another?  It's generally not because the others made any gross mistakes during the interview, it's usually because one person was just a little better in the areas that were most important.  Maybe that person made better eye contact, appeared more confident and self-assured or offered just the right inflection as they answered a certain question.  These are little things that are difficult to measure on a number scale but these are the qualitative intangibles that sometimes allow me to better glean the character of that individual.  If I am to carry on a long-term professional relationship with this individual and entrust that person with the care of my patients, it often comes down to the little things they do that aren't part of their position's job description that allow me to value that person above the rest.  
  
 I have a good friend who is a pretty good artist.  In fact, I'm selling her short because she is an excellent artist.  Technically speaking, she is amazing and she can probably reproduce the Mona Lisa to within 95% accuracy.  From a distance, I bet she could fool most into thinking they were looking at the real thing.  Does that mean her version of the Mona Lisa is just as good or good enough?  Try telling that to the Musée du Louvre.
  
 In my younger days, I used to race cars.  Specifically, I raced VW GTIs and eventually Mini Coopers.  There was a time when I was an excellent race car driver.  I was trained well and I knew all the proper driving principles.  While it's been years since I've raced competitively, I still enjoy spirited driving.  Last year, a good friend who still actively races accompanied me to Germany for some spirited driving.  We went to Nürburgring and drove the Nordschleife in a rented Nissan GT-R.  My fastest time was about 10-1/2 minutes.  I was pretty proud of myself.  We each rode shotgun as the other drove and so I was able to witness my friend's performance.  He handily beat my best time and he clocked in at about 8-1/2 minutes.  We used the same principles as we drove but he anticipated the turns better than I did.  He read the apexes better than I did.  He was aggressive at all the right times and backed off at all the right times.  He did all the little things a bit better than I did.  That's what it came down to.  Based on our times, you could say he is a 20% better race car driver than I am but you have to understand that in racing terms, a 2-minute gap is an eternity.  
  
 What separates a great DAC from a good DAC?  All DACs will make a violin or a trumpet sound like what they are.  With even a $30 DAC, no one will mistake Elvis Presley from Elvis Costello.  All DACs today are fairly competent and so why should anyone spend even $600 for a Mojo let alone $13k for a DAVE?  You guessed it, it's the little things and often, the differences are way smaller than 10-20%.  It's often about micro-details and micro-dynamics.  Bob Katz, in his book "Mastering audio: the art and the science," defines micro-dynamics as music's rhythmic expression, integrity or bounce.  It has also been described as the fine shadings within a dynamic envelope.  For example, to hear the wobble of the skin of a tympani after the tympani is struck, when the blat of a muted trumpet has an internal echo, or when you hear the neighboring strings of piano when a key is struck.  It doesn't take a golden ear to hear these things, you just have to know what to listen for and your equipment has to be revealing enough but once you hear it, you crave it and you notice it when it's missing.  If enough of these things are missing, as small as they are, the presentation quickly starts to feel like an imposter.
  
 I don't consider myself an audiophile because I own a DAC that's 20% better than another person's.  I would guess that you didn't buy your HD800 because it's 58.75% better than the stock earbuds that came with your smartphone.  For most of us, I would hazard a guess that it's about the music and how experiencing a piece of music that lasts only a few minutes can have an impact that can last so much longer.   As a frequent patron of live events, my ears are unfortunately eternally spoiled and consequently, the reference my audio equipment must measure against is one that they will never meet but every so often, you come across a special piece of equipment that takes you that much closer.  For me, the DAVE accomplishes this better than any DAC I have experienced thus far, regardless of price.  In one area or another, it may be only a few percent better than another DAC but based on how it excels with my most important metric, that quality that tricks your brain into thinking you have been transported to another time and place, I consider the DAVE to be an unqualified bargain.  
_ _


----------



## Toolman

^ totally agreed. As an owner of a business in the service industry, I often have to explain to my clients that 90% (level) of the work will typically take up 10% of the time/cost to achieve, but it is always the last 10% of the work quality that will take up 90% of the time to accomplish.

 The same can be apply to a product such as DAVE...it is often expensive and technically challenging to squeeze out the very last bit of "perfection" 

 If only everything in life is as simple and as linear as a graph could be


----------



## Crgreen

As a matter of interest, is anyone planning on trying the soon to be released PS Audion LANrover with the Dave?

http://www.psaudio.com/products/lanrover-usb-transporter/#tab-description


----------



## drabbish

looking at reviews with music servers with the dave, would a aurliac aries mini sound the same as a aurender w20 feeding the dave? seems like everyone it saying yes?


----------



## Audiolic

Dave is an overpriced dream for 99.99999999999/100 of us... 
  
 Most of us are waiting for a black dockable balanced HUGO 2 at same price as first HUGO but near Dave SQ
  
 if not.. we will go elsewhere like audio gd, schiit or wait for new sabre chip dacs..


----------



## maxh22

audiolic said:


> Dave is an overpriced dream for 99.99999999999/100 of us...
> 
> Most of us are waiting for a black dockable balanced HUGO 2 at same price as first HUGO but near Dave SQ
> 
> if not.. we will go elsewhere like audio gd, schiit or wait for new sabre chip dacs..




What would be cool is a Dave lite at a 6k price point


----------



## gndixon

Speaking of overpricing, the Dave is now about $2500 more in the USA than in the UK even with the 20% VAT. If you take out the 20% VAT then its $4-5k more in the US right now.
  
 I know (as an ex-pat) the UK gets screwed all the time in the other direction so I know its disingenuous to complain, but I would love to get a Dave in the USA. Maybe the next time I'm in the UK...


----------



## bigfatpaulie

gndixon said:


> Speaking of overpricing, the Dave is now about $2500 more in the USA than in the UK even with the 20% VAT. If you take out the 20% VAT then its $4-5k more in the US right now.
> 
> I know (as an ex-pat) the UK gets screwed all the time in the other direction so I know its disingenuous to complain, but I would love to get a Dave in the USA. Maybe the next time I'm in the UK...


 
  
  
 I'm sorry what?  I missed that.
  
 Up here in Canada it can be hard to hear American talk about exchange rates.  I must have snow in ears.


----------



## icebear

> Originally Posted by *romaz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...
> As a frequent patron of live events, my ears are unfortunately eternally spoiled and consequently, the reference my audio equipment must measure against is one that they will never meet but every so often, you come across a special piece of equipment that takes you that much closer.  For me, the DAVE accomplishes this better than any DAC I have experienced thus far, regardless of price.  In one area or another, it may be only a few percent better than another DAC but based on how it excels with my most important metric, that quality that tricks your brain into thinking you have been transported to another time and place, I consider the DAVE to be an unqualified bargain.
> _ _


 
  
 Slightly off topic in ref to your racing experience:
 https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/products/porsche-panamera-nuerburgring-nordschleife-record-2016-12683.html
  
 Great post and I concur with your experience of the live event being the benchmark of reproduction.
 Living the NYC metro area I visit concert (Jazz & classic) on a regular basis and e.g. I have seen (and listened to) Janine Jansen performing Prokofiev's violin sonata in Zankel Hall (Carnegie Hall's smaller basement performance space). I was lucky enough to have a front row seat and was about 10 ft away from her. I have a recording of her playing the same piece but not a recording of the performance I attended. When I listen to my home set up the only difference is that I was actually closer live than the impression of the recording. Otherwise this is as good as it gets, I close my eyes and I feel transformed into the performance. Good enough in my book ... no Dave though.


----------



## romaz

icebear said:


> Slightly off topic in ref to your racing experience:
> https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/products/porsche-panamera-nuerburgring-nordschleife-record-2016-12683.html


 
 Wow, 7 minutes, 39 seconds.  That's seriously good.


----------



## Audiolic

Personally i'm not interested in buying 5 2000++$ dacs when i listen to only one at the time. 
  
 i only need one portable and dockable hugo 2..
  
 i'm waiting for the new revision hoping it will be near the dave.. in SQ..
  
 ---
 even then when i'm djing/live i need 2 stereo high SQ dacs at the same time for cueing.. so better would be 2 stereo dac with line out outputs with one that can be routed into one headphone amp + low latency asio drivers..
  
 with this i wouldnt need to bring an RME soundcard + the hugo 2.. (even then with just the hugo+RME, i would only have one stereo from hugo and the other from RME..
  
 so wouldnt work with DJ mixers who need 2 SAME SQ stereo inputs.. 
  
 I would need to use the internal mixer of traktor and RME headphone amp and dac for cueing and Hugo for the room sound..
  
 --
  
 again i have to compromise and buy 100 piece of gears because no companies is intelligent enough to understand the need of home studios /dj/live artists..
  
 the only one that is near is antellope zen tour sound card.. but even then it's too big and cannot be use as portable dac/amp for music listening


----------



## raypin

Mmm.....it is not overpriced. It is the price tag of half a mid-tier honda civic where I live. Honda sold thousands of civics last year where I live. It just depends on what you expect to get out of it. Another damn car to pollute the environment or a Chord Dave to make your music alive.

Point is if you can afford to buy an ordinary car, you can afford to pay for a Chord Dave. You just have to give this hobby the priority it deserves. Otherwise, why are you even here?


----------



## Audiolic

raypin said:


> Mmm.....it is not overpriced. It is the price tag of half a mid-tier honda civic where I live. Honda sold thousands of civics last year where I live. It just depends on what you expect to get out of it. Another damn car to pollute the environment or a Chord Dave to make your music alive.
> 
> Point is if you can afford to buy an ordinary car, you can afford to pay for a Chord Dave. You just have to give this hobby the priority it deserves. Otherwise, why are you even here?


 
 the honda cost a lot more to test, make, produce than a chord dave all on one board mostly no analog pieces with good algorithm and design solution.. 
  
 i'm not denying the work and SQ of chord dave here.. just facts that's its overpriced... even at 6000 it would be overpriced from a creation cost perspective point of view.
  
 it's not about priorities or hobbies..
  
 an audiogd master 7 or master 11 cost 5 time or more to produce than chord dave and cost 10 time less.  
  
 just open the chord dave case and compare the inside to this

  
 yes i know in the end only the SQ is important but i'm not that inclined on giving 9/10 of the price of a 12 000$ product to the company owners..  but hey go for it if you dont mind the donation =) .. personnaly i'll wait for a hugo 2 in the 2000$ range or ill buy elsewhere.


----------



## PATB

The DAVE is cheaper than the MSB select, Nagra HD, etc. and, from reviews, comes with an excellent headphone amp.  Therefore, relatively speaking, it is actually a bargain in the audiophile land.  Heck, it is probably priced low.  The pricing could have been $20K and includes the stand whether you like it or not.
  
 This is the audiophile hobby, where a $500 HD650 is considered cheap, and the DAVE seems to deliver the promise unlike other products in the hobby.  Back in the early days of head-fi, somebody commented that $1000 is all you need to get a decent setup.  Everything past that is a game of inches: a little improvement here, a little improvement there...and each improvement costs 4x the original price.  And yet, a lot of us are still in the summit-fi forum. 
  
 I would buy a DAVE if I had the funds.


----------



## theveterans

Dave uses state of the art components costing thousands of dollars of R&D while Audio GD uses cheaper parts and less R&D hence the cheaper price


----------



## raypin

Mmm...here's an idea: if you brilliant guys who think can make a better product than the Dave at a fraction of the price of the Dave, make one. You will be multi millionaires in no time. I dare you.


----------



## JaZZ

Honestly, I never thought the DAVE to be overpriced. Now I even think it's a bargain. The best DAC in the world (probably) for a fraction of what you had to pay for the best DAC in the world one or two years ago...
  
 Well, I belong to the lucky ones who can afford it (although I'm not rich by any means), and I can reproduce the frustration of those who are far from that. But I also understand that Chord Electronics doesn't produce such a fine piece of advanced electronics just for making people happy – they're in a business and the main goal is profit. A good product is a welcome side effect; that's no different than in other branches. But a good product with commercial success will motivate the manufacturer to bring other good and even more advanced products to the market – to the benefit of us audiophile consumers. So buying the DAVE is in fact a good thing, provided it fits your sonic ideals.


----------



## Audiolic

raypin said:


> Mmm...here's an idea: if you brilliant guys who think can make a better product than the Dave at a fraction of the price of the Dave, make one. You will be multi millionaires in no time. I dare you.


 
 no need i'll wait for other companies to do it  should be soon enough..


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## Toolman

Just don't understand...you don't go to a supercar show and bitch about the price of a Pagani/Ferrari/Lambo etc against your Hyundai/Honda/Toyota because of how you perceived value with a certain subject.

Is DAVE expensive? relatively speaking, Yes! 

Is it over-priced? Maybe/maybe not, depending on how much that extra % of SQ meant to you.

Personally I would say there are many other silly way to spend your money but who are you to judge when its not coming from your pocket? I work hard for my money and I derived the satisfaction of owning the best gear that I can afford. If that's not your priority, or within your means then let it be. Don't be a sour grape and push your perception of value onto others who might have worked hard to afford what they so desired. Who are you to pass judgement on what they should or should not buy?

If you don't value the extra nth % of sound quality, then stay away from this section of the forum and you'll be the happier


----------



## miketlse

audiolic said:


> yes i know in the end only the SQ is important but i'm not that inclined on giving 9/10 of the price of a 12 000$ product to the company owners..  but hey go for it if you dont mind the donation =) .. personnaly i'll wait for a hugo 2 in the 2000$ range or ill buy elsewhere.


 
  
 I don't own a DAVE, and i don't work for chord, but I have spent 12 years as a cost engineering specialist in the aerospace industry, so i have a good understanding of many contributors to the retail cost of a product - but it is clear that you do not, if you think that 90% of the retail price disappears into John Franks pocket.
  
 It is probably true that the initial raw components and case, probably only account for only 5% of the final retail price, but if you work backwards from the retail price, you will get a breakdown similar to:
  
retail price
 - dealers slice
 - international distributors slice
 - customs duties
 - transportation costs
 = the chord wholesale price
 - marketing department costs
 - legal costs
 - human resources department costs
 - design team costs
 - future product R&D costs
 - testing costs
 - procurement team (including setting up the international supply chain) costs
 - customer support team (including website development and maintenance) costs
 - product assembly costs
 - initial component costs
 - building lease and related costs
 - local business rates
 - corporate taxes
 = the final chord profit (which may reach John Franks)
  
 I am sure that John Franks may quibble that I have forgotten some of the costs. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 My aim is just to explain to all the posters who have no training in costing, that there are a lot of elements to the breakdown of the retail cost of hifi equipment.
 This breakdown applies just as much to a $2000 dac, but obviously the percentage spent on the initial components will be similar.


----------



## adyc

Think about this way. DAVE is the culmination of 20+ years R&D. It is worth every single penny. I can't speak the same for other expensive brand DACs.


----------



## rgs9200m

Yeah, I 2nd what xRelicx said. I think the moderators should keep an eye on things when this stuff goes on too long and/or gets overheated as it often does.
 If you listen to some component and think it's not worth it, just say so and leave it at that. Don't go off on tangents about audio prices in general, it's not right to spread clutter like that.
  
 But seriously, just to help the person who wants to spend less, head over the Life After Yggy thread and check out the favorable comments for the PS Audio Directstream JR., which seems to be a bargain according to the listeners (I have not heard it; it's $3K).
  
 Here, I'll help you:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/804153/life-after-yggdrasil/525#post_12730063
  
 Just one request, please don't clutter up that thread, which is a good one by a fine member (Torq) who makes great contributions.
 Just read it and you'll learn a lot. Good luck.


----------



## GryphonGuy

After my Metronome DAC’s left channel died without warning and has been in the repairers for over 4 months now with the manufacturer not being overly contactable or expedient in helping out the distributor to get it repaired, I decided to seek an updated alternative DAC. In my discovery, I noticed that the Chord DAVE was getting a mention as a TOTL offering. So I read as many reviews as possible on the DAVE. I approached the local hi-fi shop in here Malaysia and pulled the trigger on the DAVE about one month ago now. I was told at that time that it would be one month back-order time but I am happy to wait, at most, another month. The reason I am going blind on the DAVE is firstly no dealer in Malaysia has the capital to spend on a such an expensive demo model so I cannot hear it first and also because the professional reviews (and even the in-depth quality reviews by amateurs) have been worded with superlatives and absolute terms like “being there” and so forth. I consider that all reviews of a product containing such superlatives will undoubtedly be a good product. The variances will only be coloured by those reviewers’ own historical journey through the HiFi world. So I am confident it is a worthy SOTA DAC of audiophile and mastering quality. At half the price of my broken Metronome DAC, I consider the Chord DAVE to be a bargain.
  
 Having been without a quality DAC for 4 months now, I am craving quality music reproduction again. I am hopeful that the DAVE will satisfy my craving by arriving soon.
  
 GG


----------



## Toolman

@GryphonGuy  There are several audio shops with demo unit over in Singapore, where you could spend several quality hours auditioning the DAVE


----------



## raypin

gryphonguy said:


> After my Metronome DAC’s left channel died without warning and has been in the repairers for over 4 months now with the manufacturer not being overly contactable or expedient in helping out the distributor to get it repaired, I decided to seek an updated alternative DAC. In my discovery, I noticed that the Chord DAVE was getting a mention as a TOTL offering. So I read as many reviews as possible on the DAVE. I approached the local hi-fi shop in here Malaysia and pulled the trigger on the DAVE about one month ago now. I was told at that time that it would be one month back-order time but I am happy to wait, at most, another month. The reason I am going blind on the DAVE is firstly no dealer in Malaysia has the capital to spend on a such an expensive demo model so I cannot hear it first and also because the professional reviews (and even the in-depth quality reviews by amateurs) have been worded with superlatives and absolute terms like “being there” and so forth. I consider that all reviews of a product containing such superlatives will undoubtedly be a good product. The variances will only be coloured by those reviewers’ own historical journey through the HiFi world. So I am confident it is a worthy SOTA DAC of audiophile and mastering quality. At half the price of my broken Metronome DAC, I consider the Chord DAVE to be a bargain.
> 
> Having been without a quality DAC for 4 months now, I am craving quality music reproduction again. I am hopeful that the DAVE will satisfy my craving by arriving soon.
> 
> GG




Mmm.....I bet my Dave that you will be satisfied. Your cravings will be satiated. 


----------------

Just to put an end to this endless, pointless debate about price and value, the price of the Chord Dave is well-known already. It is old news. Get over the sticker shock. If you can't afford it, Chord Electronics has the Chord TT, the Chord Hugo and the very popular Chord Mojo. There's a Chord to fit everyone's budget for this hobby. If you can afford it and find the Chord Dave overpriced, congratulations. You have more money to take to your grave. In both cases, move on and PLEASE stop posting in this thread. IT IS THAT SIMPLE.

P.S. and if you feel compelled to pass judgment on the Chord Dave even though you have not seen, touched or listened to the Chord Dave, you are a f...... idiot.


----------



## analogmusic

Why all the tough love?
  
 I mean Mojo does a great job at 400 GBP? Just buy one or a Hugo and enjoy the music.
  
 I am listening to my Hugo, sounds very musical.... Wonderful, just wonderfully musical.... If the Dave didn't exist, and this was my last DAC purchase, I could be happy with Mojo or Hugo, but the problem is that the DAVE does exist, and is (much) better !
  
 So save up for a Dave, and in the meantime, if you want to re-discover your music collection all over again and hear them the way they really were meant to be heard (yes that old audiophile cliche, but now finally true), get a Mojo and/or a Hugo.
  
 I don't work for Chord, just to clarify.


----------



## Mojo ideas

audiolic said:


> the honda cost a lot more to test, make, produce than a chord dave all on one board mostly no analog pieces with good algorithm and design solution..
> 
> i'm not denying the work and SQ of chord dave here.. just facts that's its overpriced... even at 6000 it would be overpriced from a creation cost perspective point of view.
> 
> ...


 Yes I can see what your saying as I love pretty electronics too! However I'd like you to all understand the following. Yes we could have packed a big case full of electronics which I very much like the look of too, but in truth It could not perform like Dave can no matter how lovely it looks. So Instead we chose to happily pay a truly brilliant consultant designer millions of pounds to work for eight years proving testing and refining a truly innovative, ultimately advanced design that wipes the floor with virtually any other Dac on the planet. But of course if you want a box of outdated electronic delights to gaze at well that's your choice!


----------



## Audiolic

raypin said:


> P.S. and if you feel compelled to pass judgment on the Chord Dave even though you have not seen, touched or listened to the Chord Dave, you are a f...... idiot.


 
  
 why would i go listen to it and crave it afterwards when i know ill never will be able to afford it in my lifetime.  
  
 and sorry chord.. i wasn't bashing SQ of dave and no problem if you pay your employees millions and ask 10000 for your products so that only the rich select few can have that innovative perfect sound. 
  
 i'll wait for a hugo 2 or mojo 2 or buy a mojo used or go elsewhere.


----------



## Mavwong

It's worth the wait. If not just come to Singapore, AV1 was quick in delivering my DAVE back then.
  
 Quote:


gryphonguy said:


> After my Metronome DAC’s left channel died without warning and has been in the repairers for over 4 months now with the manufacturer not being overly contactable or expedient in helping out the distributor to get it repaired, I decided to seek an updated alternative DAC. In my discovery, I noticed that the Chord DAVE was getting a mention as a TOTL offering. So I read as many reviews as possible on the DAVE. I approached the local hi-fi shop in here Malaysia and pulled the trigger on the DAVE about one month ago now. I was told at that time that it would be one month back-order time but I am happy to wait, at most, another month. The reason I am going blind on the DAVE is firstly no dealer in Malaysia has the capital to spend on a such an expensive demo model so I cannot hear it first and also because the professional reviews (and even the in-depth quality reviews by amateurs) have been worded with superlatives and absolute terms like “being there” and so forth. I consider that all reviews of a product containing such superlatives will undoubtedly be a good product. The variances will only be coloured by those reviewers’ own historical journey through the HiFi world. So I am confident it is a worthy SOTA DAC of audiophile and mastering quality. At half the price of my broken Metronome DAC, I consider the Chord DAVE to be a bargain.
> 
> Having been without a quality DAC for 4 months now, I am craving quality music reproduction again. I am hopeful that the DAVE will satisfy my craving by arriving soon.
> 
> GG


----------



## analogmusic

audiolic said:


> why would i go listen to it and crave it afterwards when i know ill never will be able to afford it in my lifetime.
> 
> and sorry chord.. i wasn't bashing SQ of dave and no problem if you pay your employees millions and ask 10000 for your products so that only the rich select few can have that innovative perfect sound.
> 
> i'll wait for a hugo 2 or mojo 2 or buy a mojo used or go elsewhere.


 
  
 Just buy a mojo, 400 GBP isn't that much to pay for a DAC that can make you fall in love with music all over again.


----------



## Beolab

If anyone struggle to find a reseller who are selling DAVE in their country, just give me a PM, and i can get one for you. 

Then it is not over priced at all, if you look at the developing and reaserch cost, it is not always the raw material you are paying for, then it would only look good, but sounded average from the Burr Brown DAC chip from the bottom shelf inside. Just chose what you want.


----------



## raypin

audiolic said:


> why would i go listen to it and crave it afterwards when i know ill never will be able to afford it in my lifetime.
> 
> and sorry chord.. i wasn't bashing SQ of dave and no problem if you pay your employees millions and ask 10000 for your products so that only the rich select few can have that innovative perfect sound.
> 
> i'll wait for a hugo 2 or mojo 2 or buy a mojo used or go elsewhere.




Mmmm....then be content with what you can afford. What matters most is you enjoy your music, your way and damn what others think. My apologies for the coarse language and ill temper.


----------



## Toolman

Hmmm...how do you define value of anything, audio equipment or not? 

Is it by the sticker price tag? 
..or is it by what makes you smile? 
..or by the amount of utility you get out of a purchase?

I choose to look at the latter two. Obviously audio being a hobby it must be judged by the satisfaction you derived out of it, as well as how much you'll end up utilising a piece of equipment. 

How often have we bought stuff that we regretted as soon as we brought it home, only to put it for sale and waited for a couple of months before someone will take it off you for a price that suites them. To me that's expensive no matter how much you paid for it in the first place.

I'm quite sure that DAVE will stay with me for possibly the next 10 years, and I'll listen and enjoy my music as well as derived much satisfaction of it. Yes it might have a high entry price but I'm sure I'll squeeze every bit of enjoyment out of it over the years, without feeling the urge to sell my gear and upgrade.

Now, that in my definition is what I'll called..."cheap"


----------



## jelt2359

I've been thinking about this for a while. What makes a hair cut with a famous stylist worth so much more than one at the corner? Surely it isn't the cost of the pair of scissors? What makes a building designed by Zaha Hadid so much more desirable than the one designed by your uncle's friend? Surely it isn't the cost of the building materials. What makes a leather bag by Hermes cost so much more than a DIY one? Again, it definitely isn't the cost of leather- no leather is worth so much. Finally, what makes some random paint splashing by Jackson Pollock more expensive than some random paint splashed by those kids in school? I betcha it isn't the quality of the paint.
  
 In all these cases you're paying for expertise. You're paying for the design. You're paying a premium for the guy who him and only him, could come up with all this by himself. It's easy to spot these guys. They're the ones who don't copy anyone else, who like to run at the forefront and at the cutting edge. They're the ones that never play it safe, and instead seek out things that nobody else is doing.  
  
 If that's not what you like to pay for, that's okay. Go splash out on an expensive transformer. Invest in some brand-name caps. Buy something that is tangible, something that you can point to and say, _that's_ what I paid for. Frankly, there's nothing wrong with that. BTW, not everyone who does things differently is worth paying for. There's a thin red line between genius (_why _didn't I think of that?) and stupidity (_of course_ no one does it this way). I wouldn't pay for Jackson Pollock's art either- not because I don't agree with it's price, but because I can't appreciate that design. I honestly can't tell if he's genius or stupid. I also wouldn't lavish on a famous hair stylist- most hair cuts look the same to me. Ditto Hermes, and Zaha Hadid. Where it comes to these things, I'd rather pay for expensive leather, and for pricy fittings in the house. Don't know, don't care about expertise or design.
  
 But where it comes to audio, I _can _tell the difference. And so I'm more willing to spend on something so intangible, something so unquantifiable, as _design_. The moment I heard the Dave, I just knew it was better. 
  
 Just my two cents!


----------



## Toolman

So...you won't afford it (not saying you can't afford it), you have not experienced nor have you heard it...sounds like you have no horse in this race and by repeatedly moaning about it here and calling those who could afford it a "rich troll", it just makes you sounds bitter as well a sour grape.

So...if Chord were to sell DAVE at half its retail price right now, what's to say you won't come here and moan about the exact same thing as well? #troll


----------



## Ampus

Has any of the forum members tried the Wyred4Sound modified Sonos Connect with his or her DAVE? If so, would you share your impression please?


----------



## rgs9200m

Are any DAVE owners former Hugo (or TT) owners who liked to use a separate amp with the Hugo products?
 I ask because I much prefer external amps on my Hugo TT and my original Hugo.
  
 I find a direct connection to the headphone just not full enough or sometimes digital glare prone; there is some bloom missing for me. I also hear more bass resonance and a more pleasing decay of notes with the amps, and just more authority overall.
  
 (My amps I use are both a Rudistor RP010B and a Headamp GSX2 w/Alpha pot. Both sound great to me. Headphones are mainly the LCD4 and the Grado PS1000e and sometimes the Hifiman HE1000.)
  
 Would I be happy using the DAVE direct to my headphones if this is my feeling about the Hugo and the Hugo TT?
  
 I *know* the subject about amping the Chord DACS is controversial, but given my preferences, what's your advice? Thanks.


----------



## JaZZ

I can only offer you my experience with external amps and an alternative approach for achieving a sonic characteristic that suits your sonic preference and creates the desired synergy: equalizing.
  
 The amplifier route with added harmonic distortion for a warmer and fuller sound – notably with just one arbitrary preset for all of your headphones – is a poor substitute for the much more flexible and universal sound manipulation via equalizing, enabling to effectively linearize the frequency response of your headphones or, if need be, match them to your personal taste. I guess you already know Rob's take, no?
  
 I think you should try it – seriously... and patiently (because there's no instant gratification).


----------



## ecwl

rgs9200m said:


> Are any DAVE owners former Hugo (or TT) owners who liked to use a separate amp with the Hugo products?
> I ask because I much prefer external amps on my Hugo TT and my original Hugo.


 
 What are you using as a source? Is it USB or coaxial S/PDIF? Or are you using Toslink?
 It's possible that the USB or coaxial source is injecting too much RF noise into the DAC, undermining the Hugo (TT) performance. Just double-checking. If that's not the problem, I agree with what JaZZ said.


----------



## rgs9200m

I guess my broader question was, are the DAVE fans basically Chord-all-the-way, or do they feel the Chord DAC technology is the main point of genius here and in the Hugo series?
  
 I use USB (AQ Diamond after a lot of experiments with other USBs). I also fussed a lot with interconnects and the amp power cable to get the sound I like [Stealth and Shunyata]. Thanks for the kind advice. [The source is a Windows PC using JRiver + Tidal.]
 I do play with Jriver EQ sometimes (I have lots of curves stored), always to deal with glare, so I dip the upper mids to highs sometimes, just subtly, and tailored to each headphone. No EQ with Tidal though.


----------



## x RELIC x

Back to what it's all about... Music. I've been listening to tracks from Yosi Horikawa after Warren of Cavalli Audio recommended it as a part of what he uses to demo Cavalli amps. I have to say, it's pretty cool! I've never heard ping pong balls so musically before, hahaha. He's a brilliant producer in my opinion and makes every day sounds in to some good tunes. You guys should check out his discography. The track that Warren specifically mentioned is Bubbles.

https://yosihorikawa.bandcamp.com/track/bubbles


----------



## EVOLVIST

rgs9200m said:


> Would I be happy using the DAVE direct to my headphones if this is my feeling about the Hugo and the Hugo TT?
> 
> I *know* the subject about amping the Chord DACS is controversial, but given my preferences, what's your advice? Thanks.


 
  
 I don't have my DAVE yet, but I've auditioned one, twice, before purchasing. Have you auditioned one with your headphones plugged right into the DAVE?
  
 I'm a solid state kind of guy, and I have my favorite headphone amp: the SPL Auditor. I've tried many, many HP amps, but I keep coming back to the Auditor. It is hands down the best solid state amp I have ever heard.
  
 Then I auditioned the DAVE and plugged right into the headphone jack with my HD800s. I was amazed at how wide and deep the sound was, having my single-ended HD800s, sound as if I were running my cans with balanced 3-pin XLRs. The effect was simply stunning. I have read, somewhere in these 299 pgs, that the way the headphone section is implemented in the DAVE is very sophisticated, unlike any other headphone amp, which will actually optimize the DAVE to the fullest. No digital glare that I heard...in fact, quite the opposite.
  
 Maybe somebody in here knows a bit more about what I was reading about DAVE's headphone output?
  
 Anyway, when I wanted to see how the DAVE sounded with my Auditor, after listening to the DAVE alone, I found the sound coming through my Auditor to be very odd. Not quite "flat," but not near as lively and realistic as it was plugging right into the DAVE. Now, this is an HP amp that I have auditioned scores of DACs with, to great effect The Auditor usually brings out the best in a DAC, from a strict solid state standpoint. Not so with the DAVE, though. I wonder why that is? It's not a rhetorical question. No, I really wonder why that is.
  
 I have not heard the headphone section on the Hugo TT, so I wouldn't know...but I thought the headphone section in the Hugo sounded a bit pinched, when it came to what I was used to with the Auditor.
  
 Just my experience. Take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## x RELIC x

evolvist said:


> I don't have my DAVE yet, but I've auditioned one, twice, before purchasing. Have you auditioned one with your headphones plugged right into the DAVE?
> 
> I'm a solid state kind of guy, and I have my favorite headphone amp: the SPL Auditor. I've tried many, many HP amps, but I keep coming back to the Auditor. It is hands down the best solid state amp I have ever heard.
> 
> ...




More like extremely simple and transparent, rather than sophisticated. The genius is in the DAC section, being so clean there is no need for analogue filtering or unnecessary components in the analogue stage. You're basically hearing the line-out from the DAC rather than the 'amp' section, because there really isn't one. The DAVE (and other Chord DACs) are very transparent to the source with very low distortion in the signal path. Adding an external amp will only, by default, increase distortion thus not being as transparent.

Edit: Hugo is the most 'airy' of the Chord DACs in its tuning.


----------



## EVOLVIST

x relic x said:


> More like extremely simple and transparent, rather than sophisticated. The genius is in the DAC section, being so clean there is no need for analogue filtering or unnecessary components in the analogue stage. You're basically hearing the line-out from the DAC rather than the 'amp' section, because there really isn't one. The DAVE (and other Chord DACs) are very transparent to the source with very low distortion in the signal path. Adding an external amp will only, by default, increase distortion thus not being as transparent.
> 
> Edit: Hugo is the most 'airy' of the Chord DACs in its tuning.


 
  
 Yeah, that's it! That's what I trying to get to. You're getting the straight juice through the DAVE's jack without anything to get in the way. That's pretty much what I remember reading, and pretty much my experience, as limited as it may be at this point.


----------



## rgs9200m

Thanks for that evolvist and xrelicx once again. Nice impressions.


----------



## bidn

I have a question which may sound silly,
 but I like to be in the dark when listening to music,
 so I never bought any of the Hugo, Hugo TT, etc. because of these lights that turn on.
 It would irritate me terribly and deprive me from any pleasure.
 So now my question:
 does the Dave have any such of these lights
 or any bright LED which would emit a lot of light (e.g. could be a nuisance in a dark room)?


----------



## x RELIC x

bidn said:


> I have a question which may sound silly,
> but I like to be in the dark when listening to music,
> so I never bought any of the Hugo, Hugo TT, etc. because of these lights that turn on.
> It would irritate me terribly and deprive me from any pleasure.
> ...




As per the manual you can choose display option 4 which turns the display off after a brief time with no interaction with the unit. This is the setting I typically use.


----------



## bidn

x relic x said:


> As per the manual you can choose display option 4 which turns the display off after a brief time with no interaction with the unit. This is the setting I typically use.


 
  
 Thank you.
  
 I downloaded the manual,
 it mentions a single headphone output (jack), do you connect the Utopia there?
  
 Can you use the 2 XLR-3 outputs, which according to the manual are specific for headphones, for connecting a headphone?
  
 It seems a pity that for such a price it does not have a XLR-4 headfphone output,
 if we are not supposed to connect it to a headphone amp.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

bidn said:


> I have a question which may sound silly,
> but I like to be in the dark when listening to music,
> so I never bought any of the Hugo, Hugo TT, etc. because of these lights that turn on.
> It would irritate me terribly and deprive me from any pleasure.
> ...


 
  
 I'm the same way, aside when I had a tube amp.  I was good with that light and the city scape.  
  
 Dave, with the screen set to turn off, of basically totally dark.  There seem to be some internal LED's that can shine through a little bit from above the screen but you have to look to see it.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

bidn said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I downloaded the manual,
> it mentions a single headphone output (jack), do you connect the Utopia there?
> ...


 
  
 DAVE is a single ended DAC.  A 4 pin XLR on the front doesn't make sense.


----------



## JaZZ

evolvist said:


> I don't have my DAVE yet, but I've auditioned one, twice, before purchasing. Have you auditioned one with your headphones plugged right into the DAVE?
> 
> I'm a solid state kind of guy, and I have my favorite headphone amp: the SPL Auditor. I've tried many, many HP amps, but I keep coming back to the Auditor. It is hands down the best solid state amp I have ever heard.
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's a fascinating story, and I'm glad to be confirmed.
  
 I think it's not the Hugo's headphone section which is to be blamed, it's simply the Hugo's sonic signature that may not entirely harmonize with certain headphones. An amp in the signal path will certainly make the over-all sound more forgiving (to both down- and upstream flaws).
  


x relic x said:


> Hugo is the most 'airy' of the Chord DACs in its tuning.


 
  
 I agree. It's slightly treble-friendlier than the DAVE. One (virtual) click on my X5 II's equalizer fixes the issue (well: with respect to the setting for DAVE). I wouldn't use an amp for that.


----------



## x RELIC x

bidn said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I downloaded the manual,
> it mentions a single headphone output (jack), do you connect the Utopia there?
> ...




Yes, I use the headphone jack on the DAVE.

The SE configuration of the DAVE (and all Chord DACs) does not require balanced output to perform extremely well. The measurements prove this. Balanced output is on the DAVE for convenience, not sq improvement. There are many posts from Rob on the subject, and I would suggest reading through 'all posts' by Rob for explanations. It's a very worthwhile pursuit if such things are interesting to you. Here's a little on balanced:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/195#post_11772205



rob watts said:


> Component count is very important for transparency. Doubling the number of parts in the direct signal path does degrade depth perception and detail resolution.
> 
> But there is another problem with balanced operation. Imagine a balanced differential in, differential out amplifier. The input stage is normally a differential pair (maybe cascoded) with a constant current source. Now the input stage is free to move up and down to accommodate the common mode voltage - but the input stage common mode impedance is non linear, and if the common mode voltage has a signal component (it always will have due to component tolerances) then this will create a signal dependent error current, thereby generating distortion. Unfortunately, the negative feedback loop of the amplifier can't correct for this distortion as it can't see the error on the summing nodes. So there will always be a limit to the performance. With SE operation, this problem does not occur, as the differential input stage is clamped to ground.
> 
> ...





Also, don't connect balanced headphones to the balanced output of the DAVE. Straight from the source:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/840#post_12124924



rob watts said:


> Categorically do not do this. The balanced drive has insufficient current drive and is intended to drive power amps only.
> 
> Dave can drive the HE1000 with ease - they are rated at 90 dB 1mW 33 ohms. Dave will give 1.4W into 33 ohms that translates to ear damaging 121 dB SPL with the HE1000.
> 
> ...





http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1695#post_12355143



rob watts said:


> I am not listening....
> 
> Actually, production Dave now has short circuit protection resistors installed on the balanced XLR, so it absolutely won't drive headphones! It didn't have the current drive either for headphones too.
> 
> ...


----------



## ecwl

rgs9200m said:


> I guess my broader question was, are the DAVE fans basically Chord-all-the-way, or do they feel the Chord DAC technology is the main point of genius here and in the Hugo series?
> 
> I use USB (AQ Diamond after a lot of experiments with other USBs). I also fussed a lot with interconnects and the amp power cable to get the sound I like [Stealth and Shunyata]. Thanks for the kind advice. [The source is a Windows PC using JRiver + Tidal.]
> I do play with Jriver EQ sometimes (I have lots of curves stored), always to deal with glare, so I dip the upper mids to highs sometimes, just subtly, and tailored to each headphone. No EQ with Tidal though.




Right, but have you tried adding say an Audioquest Jitterbug to filter the noisy USB output from your PC before connecting your AQ Diamond? If you did, did the Jitterbug remove the digital glare you didn't like? If I play from my laptop, it's not plugged in to reduce noise and optimize the galvanic isolation. My "desktop" is a CAPSv3 Carbon which has a SOTM USB card that has noise filtering for the USB output and I use a separate linear power supply to power the USB port.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ecwl said:


> Right, but have you tried adding say an Audioquest Jitterbug to filter the noisy USB output from your PC before connecting your AQ Diamond? If you did, did the Jitterbug remove the digital glare you didn't like? If I play from my laptop, it's not plugged in to reduce noise and optimize the galvanic isolation. My "desktop" is a CAPSv3 Carbon which has a SOTM USB card that has noise filtering for the USB output and I use a separate linear power supply to power the USB port.


 
  
 Hmmmm...but either galvanic isolation is galvanic isolation, or it isn't...and if it is, it is there is supposed to be no worry outside interference, yes? At least that's what I've always believed.
  
 I don't have my DAVE yet, and in auditioning I didn't have my iUSB 3.0 with me, but in theory I wouldn't need it for a galvanically isolated DAC if the science is all what it's cracked up to me; so, why the jitterbug, or a Uptone Regen, or the iUSB 3.0?
  
 Or maybe I'm totally missing something (which is well within the realm of possibilities).


----------



## ecwl

evolvist said:


> Hmmmm...but either galvanic isolation is galvanic isolation, or it isn't...and if it is, it is there is supposed to be no worry outside interference, yes? At least that's what I've always believed.
> 
> I don't have my DAVE yet, and in auditioning I didn't have my iUSB 3.0 with me, but in theory I wouldn't need it for a galvanically isolated DAC if the science is all what it's cracked up to me; so, why the jitterbug, or a Uptone Regen, or the iUSB 3.0?
> 
> Or maybe I'm totally missing something (which is well within the realm of possibilities).




http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3435

Rob Watts previously addressed this issue/question in the above post.


----------



## Rob Watts

evolvist said:


> I don't have my DAVE yet, but I've auditioned one, twice, before purchasing. Have you auditioned one with your headphones plugged right into the DAVE?
> 
> I'm a solid state kind of guy, and I have my favorite headphone amp: the SPL Auditor. I've tried many, many HP amps, but I keep coming back to the Auditor. It is hands down the best solid state amp I have ever heard.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Dave does indeed have a unique amplifier section - it is actually a 2nd order analogue noise shaper (a conventional amp is a first order noise shaper).
  
 The reason I do this is two fold - firstly, whenever you load a headphone amp you get more distortion, and its audible and all amplifiers suffer from this. By using a 2nd order noise shaper approach allows me to eliminate this problem - when I load the outputs there is zero change in distortion (apart from a small increase in 2nd harmonic). This means when you load the OP, there is no change in sound quality (all other amps harden up and to mask this they add a lot of 2nd harmonic to fatten the sound up).
  
 The second reason this is done is high frequency distortion. All conventional amplifiers have higher distortion as frequency rises, and this has important SQ consequences, in terms of making things sound hard and un-musical. This is due to insufficient feedback available at high frequencies with poor open loop distortion. Now the distortion with modern high performance op-amps is down to the output stage - and that's one reason why all my DAC's have discrete OP stages, so I can eliminate this weakness. But my second order system has excellent open loop distortion performance plus no HF feedback problems too. A indicator of this is the gain bandwidth product - the best audio op-amps are 100 MHz, but with Dave it is 1 GHz.    
  
 You can see this HF distortion problem with the 19k/20k test. All DAC's make a mess of this but Dave has the lowest distortion of any other DAC using this test:
  

  
 This level is actually the residual performance of the APX555, so Dave is probably much better than this (one reason why Davina is happening - I need better ADC's to measure).
  
 By using the second order approach does not affect transparency - it is still a single global feedback path, so the effective number of passive components is the same as before.
  
 Rob


----------



## 6RS

I would like to add another argument regarding "parts porn". First, it is the result that matters, and the Dave delivers (I own Hugo and Mojo, but cannot afford the Dave, but listened to it and compared it to Mojo). Second, the more parts and soldering points, the more parameters need to be kept in check. It is inevitable, that variation of such equipment is much larger within a production series, and that they age faster compared to smart designs with fewer components and more integrated design.


----------



## Mojo ideas

6rs said:


> I would like to add another argument regarding "parts porn". First, it is the result that matters, and the Dave delivers (I own Hugo and Mojo, but cannot afford the Dave, but listened to it and compared it to Mojo). Second, the more parts and soldering points, the more parameters need to be kept in check. It is inevitable, that variation of such equipment is much larger within a production series, and that they age faster compared to smart designs with fewer components and more integrated design.


 Point well made. However I would like to add that the number of active working transistors within Dave is quite possibly several billion more than in some typically flamboyantly componented but possibly rather dated alternative designs.


----------



## bidn

If you allow me, I have another dumb practical question related to this single headphone output.
  
 My situation (I assume it is not unusual among audiophiles) is that I have a number of headphones hanging around my desk,
 and while I am behind my computer trying out different kinds of music,
 I like to quickly switch headphones accordingly (e.g. bright vs dark, or better for vocals vs better for punch, etc.),
 and I don't like to unplug them each time.
 So I usually have the lowest impedance headphones connected to various ouputs (XLR-4, 2xXLR-3, jack) of my headphone DAC-amp
 and other headphones to the outputs of headphone amp.
 To switch headphones, I just hang back the one I had, turn the output selector knob for the headphone I want, grab it, and voilà...
 (besides this simply prevents the jacks and the plugs from being exposed to dust), 
  
 How do you do then with the single output of the Dave?
 Still adding an amp with many outputs or bothering with plugging out and in 
 (and possibly trading an XLR-to-jack adaptor between the headphones) ?


----------



## romaz

bidn said:


> If you allow me, I have another dumb practical question related to this single headphone output.
> 
> My situation (I assume it is not unusual among audiophiles) is that I have a number of headphones hanging around my desk,
> and while I am behind my computer trying out different kinds of music,
> ...


 
 You can use a headphone switcher like the following:
  
 https://www.amazon.com/LINE5-Multi-channel-Headphone-Switcher-Amplifier/dp/B00HA11KFQ
  
 The above is for 3.5mm headphone plugs but I wouldn't buy something like this anyway -- quality is probably poor.  For the best quality, I would suggest you build one yourself (or have one built) using better parts.  Not hard to do.


----------



## Articnoise

mojo ideas said:


> Point well made. However I would like to add that the number of active working transistors within Dave is quite possibly several billion more than in some typically flamboyantly componented but possibly rather dated alternative designs.


 
  

 Can you post some pics that shows those several billion transistors please? And more important what’s the benefit of using several billion active working transistors anyway?


----------



## JaZZ

He probably meant the _FPGA_ with its billions of transistors.


----------



## analogmusic

I still don't get all the negative comments here.... 
  
 I mean this is the same company that gave you us Mojo, and musically it is one amazing device, 
  
 I think we need to remember it is all about the music, the Mojo allows one to enjoy the music.
  
 Hugo is better, Hugo TT is even more so, and Dave much more so.
  
 But if you read the review of the first DAC, the Chord DAC 64, which is on the chord website, (just google Chord DAC 64 review), and you will understand that from the first DAC 64, *these have been musical devices, which allow one to enjoy digital music.* 
  
 That is the bottom line, really, I think.
  
 Why all the tough love?


----------



## EVOLVIST

Heh. I shouldn't have written that.


----------



## Light - Man

evolvist said:


> There will always be penis envy.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Ha! Okay, I was right the first time. In the audio world, sure there is.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

I'm trusting you, @romaz  
  

  
 This just arrived.  I'll spend some time this weekend listening to it VS the PS Audio stuff.


----------



## romaz

bigfatpaulie said:


> I'm trusting you, @romaz
> 
> 
> 
> This just arrived.  I'll spend some time this weekend listening to it VS the PS Audio stuff.


 
 I'm eager to know how it works out for your DAVE.  You'll need to give it at least 1-2 weeks as it takes time to magnetize your system but its impact should be quite evident.  I have not looked back and I now have it at every position (both power and signal) in my chain.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

romaz said:


> I'm eager to know how it works out for your DAVE.  You'll need to give it at least 1-2 weeks as it takes time to magnetize your system but its impact should be quite evident.  I have not looked back and I now have it at every position (both power and signal) in my chain.


 
  
 Me too!!  Particularly given my power situation (as you know).
  
 I do have my finger on a P10 but I am still flip-flopping between this and a P10 or, if the results are there (and you thoughts), getting a CT1 Ultimate (and an MC6 Hemisphere??!).


----------



## Mojo ideas

romaz said:


> I'm eager to know how it works out for your DAVE.  You'll need to give it at least 1-2 weeks as it takes time to magnetize your system but its impact should be quite evident.  I have not looked back and I now have it at every position (both power and signal) in my chain.


 I'm fully magnetised already and I'm only looking at the image on the screen.


----------



## romaz

mojo ideas said:


> I'm fully magnetised already and I'm only looking at the image on the screen.




See, don't say I didn't warn you!


----------



## EVOLVIST

Ha! @Mojo ideas
  
  @bigfatpaulie how much did that shiznit run you? I might have to sell an extra few books in order to stop my cable envy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Edit: Oh, I apologies; that's the CT-1 Power Cable. Very nice. Cheers!


----------



## Christer

mojo ideas said:


> I'm fully magnetised already and I'm only looking at the image on the screen.


 

 And I am currently  both  magnetized and hypnothized and in awe over how well my humble Hugo reproduces my  so far largest,Mega-download : Wagner´s  Der Ring des Nibelungen played by the Berlin Philharmonic and conducted by Herbert von Karajan, newly remastered 24/96 from the analogue master tapes  ranging between 1966 and 1970. All in all just under 15 hours and 29 gigabyte  of sublime music that  once again make me wonder what real significant advances in the art of recording have really happened in all these years?
 Only occasionally do these half a century old recordings show their age.
 And once again and in spite of some recent moaning from me, Hugo has shown what an amazingly good little DAC it is even in my HIFI system provided I run  both it and my macbook  pro from battery, the SQ is like listening to  analogue mastertape playback in all its glory.
 There is a lot of emphasis on  equipment, cabling and and other add ons, here, but very little on the type of music where Dacs like Mojo, Hugo and Dave, really shine,
 acoustic music with dynamic range ranging from a mere whisper of a ppp to a full fff orchestral climax.
 Not even the famous Decca Solti Wagner Ring sounds as spacious and natural  acoustically as this one.
 The depth and width and fullness and realistic timbre of  all that Wagner-brass especially is awesome.
 And although Solti has got Birgit Nilson and the VPO, Karajan´s masterly conducting  rules IMO.
 With Solti I listen for an hour or so  and them lose interest. With Karajan I am magnetized to my recliner listening chair and can sit through four and a half hours of glorious Opera-music  with only an occasional toilet visit or meal in between !
 For those few who both own a Chord DAC and care about music that stretches longer than the  4-5 minute pop track length, I can  not strongly enough,recommend this new  important re- release either as 4 separate albums from HRA or  as one cheaper 28.99 gigabyte mega-download from Qobuz.
 I have over 4 Terabyte of hi res music  and this one now stands as the most important and most intoxicating and eargasmic of them all. If I could only bring one work with me to a "Desert Island" it would be this version of Wagner´s timeless masterpiece.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

This stuff seems to work pretty well.  I'll admit there was some scotch involved last night so more listening is needed but my initial reaction is, "Uh-oh..."


----------



## x RELIC x

bigfatpaulie said:


> This stuff seems to work pretty well.  I'll admit there was some scotch involved last night so more listening is needed but my initial reaction is, "Uh-oh..."




Dangerous comments..... For my wallet!!


----------



## Kakki

Marantz new SACD player SA-10 converts all the PCM to 11.2Mhz DSD (native DSD will not be up-sampled) and then convert it to analog signals using analog FIR filters.
  
 I can see 14 MELF precision resistors in the discrete DA conversion section in SA-10 which I assume to be the analog FIR filters.
  
 http://www.phileweb.com/news/audio/image.php?id=17665&row=7
  
 This approach seems to be completely opposite of the Chord approach ... is there any point doing this???


----------



## romaz

Well before my DAVE arrived, I asked Rob the following question earlier this year:
  
 "Rob, does the DAVE benefit from mechanical isolation (Stillpoints, etc)?"

_"Yes all products do."_
  
 And so, after months of putting it off because of more pressing priorities, I finally found the time to compare various methods of mechanical isolation with my DAVE.  For those interested, here is what I have tried over the past couple of weeks:
  

  
 During my initial evaluation of the DAVE back in November of 2015, I noticed that I couldn't detect much difference in SQ when I had the DAVE by itself planted on top of my TotalDac and when I had the DAVE suspended on top of a couple of HRS Nimbus footers.  With my TotalDac, the Nimbus footers were quite effective.  This suggested to me that the DAVE was already well isolated within its beefy aluminum block and might not benefit that much from further mechanical isolation.  Here is a photo of that DAVE suspended on a pair of HRS Nimbus footers as I was comparing it against my TotalDac d1-monoblocs:
  

  
 When my DAVE finally showed up, I was so pleased with how it sounded sitting directly on my cherry wood desk that I looked for a stand more for aesthetic reasons with isolation being a secondary concern.  To my eyes, nothing is as attractive as Chord's own stand.  While I have no idea how well it performs as a mechanical isolator, John Franks has certainly created a work of art with this stand but because of its larger footprint, I couldn't make it work for me.  Here is the nicest looking portrayal of this stand with the DAVE I have seen which I borrowed from Frank Iacono's wonderful review on Headphone Guru:
  

  
 As many of you know, I went with the Acoustic Revive TB-38H.  It is very compact and appears tailor-made for the DAVE:
  

  
 In this scenario, the DAVE sits on a Hickory plinth which then is floated on a bed of quartz crystals which absorb and eliminate vibrational energy by changing it to thermal energy.  The concept bordered on snake oil to me but I did notice an immediate but subtle difference compared against the HRS Nimbus footers.  With the TB-38H, the DAVE sounded a touch warmer with greater treble detail which were to my liking.  The downside was that the sound seemed less focused, especially in the lower registers (bass was less defined) which was not a great trade-off.  I had some low profile Black Ravioli footers that I was using for my CAD CAT music server that I placed initially between the DAVE and the hickory plinth and while this improved the focus, it diminished the slight warmth and enhanced treble detail that the TB-38H nicely brought out.  I then tried the Black Raviolis underneath the TB-38H where they were directly positioned between my desk and the TB-38H.  This led to my best scenario.  The desired warmth and detail were there but also the focus and improved bass definition.  
  
 While I have been pleased with this setup over the months, the thought that there was something better continued to linger in my mind.  At CES in January, I bumped into Mike Latvis, HRS' chief engineer, and told him how I found it odd that his highly acclaimed Nimbus footers worked so well with my TotalDac but not with the DAVE.  When he realized that the DAVE was encased in a dense block of aluminum, he told me he had a new footer, the Vortex, that would be coming out soon and was specifically designed for such billets of metal and strongly encouraged that I try these Vortex footers.  This is what these footers look like and they run $300 a piece.  For the DAVE, I would need at least 3:
  

 Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate these footers to borrow for evaluation and so I went with what I could find.  There are literally dozens of options out there as you might imagine but rather than randomly picking out a few, I enlisted the counsel of several more knowledgeable than me about such matters.  
  
 Mechanical isolation boils down to the 3 "D"s -- dampening, drainage and dissipation.  Many believe that mechanical isolation is more important with speaker setups than with headphone setups but my experience has shown me this isn't true.  While it's intuitive to all that the vibrational energy created by a booming subwoofer would have deleterious effects on our sensitive components, what is less intuitive is that every electrical component we own creates its own resonances and sometimes it is the resonance created by a certain component that is that component's own worst enemy resulting in compromised noise floor, focus and dynamics.  AC, by its definition as an alternating current creates a vibrational energy at 50-60 Hz (right in the middle of the critical bass range) that can impact SQ and so one of the most important places to apply vibrational control would be with our mains cables, line conditioners, distribution blocks and especially our power supplies that house power transformers.  Of course, it doesn't take much imagination to understand how sensitive electronics like music servers, DACs and preamps can be impacted.  Power supply components, as they charge and discharge, capacitors, resistors, ICs and output devices in the signal path all vibrate as they pass the audio signal and while these individual vibrations may be small, they can be additive and since they are occurring at the signal, these vibrations are poised to do the greatest damage.   In these situations, dampening really isn't enough.  Drainage of that vibrational energy from the component via some conduit and then dissipation of that energy in some harmless fashion (either as heat or work) is really what is more important.  
  
 But how should we approach vibrational control and can you overdo it?  A good analogy would be a car's suspension.  Many cars today have suspensions with different settings.  My Audi, for example, has a "comfort", "standard," and "sport" mode where the "comfort" mode provides a softer suspension but it's at the compromise of control.  Stiff or soft?  It depends on the driver or in this case, the listener, but vibrational control is certainly one way to tune your sound.  Where a wood plinth can sound warm and forgiving, granite, while less forgiving can result in tighter bass and better detail.  
  
 As for things like metal cones, hard hats, disks or spikes, these function as conduits that are designed to "drain" energy from a component and channel them to some mechanism that will then "dissipate" this energy.
  
 As to footers, there seem to be two classifications when it comes to dissipation:  the soft rubberish-based footers like the Black Raviolis and the HRS Nimbus that absorb vibrational energy and convert this energy to heat and the ball bearing-based footers like the Stillpoints that dissipate vibrational energy through rotating balls.  Some believe the rubberish-based footers are better at dissipating vertical vibrational energy whereas the ball bearing-based footers are better at dissipating horizontal vibrational energy.  Which is best?  Each has its proponents but I don't think you can ever know for sure until you try.  Finally, there are specialized racks that have some ability to mitigate broadband vibrations but I believe the consensus is that the ideal scenario employs a combination of efforts.
  
 Now, without further ado, this is what I found:
  
*Kellet Enterprises (KE) LP-13 Shake Absorber Vibration Isolation Pads ($0.45 per square inch)*

@TheAttorney introduced these to me and I found their relatively low price ($0.45 per square inch) attractive and so I purchased a few custom sizes.  In my photo at the top, a large KE pad is sitting underneath my TB-38H.  A smaller KE pad is pictured 3rd from the left.  They are comprised of an inert piece of ABS plastic sandwiched by two pieces of firm neoprene.  The pieces of neoprene convert vibrational energy to heat that is then transferred to the piece of plastic in the middle.  The concept is sound and their low price is attractive but as these devices were designed for heavy commercial equipment such as washing machines and large air conditioning systems, they have high durometer ratings (50-70) meaning their dampening abilities aren't maximized unless your component is very heavy.  While they are effective in dampening, draining and dissipating vibrational energy from the DAVE and are definitely better than nothing, they are not as effective as the Black Raviolis which appear to have a more ideal durometer rating for components such as the DAVE.  Where I found these very effective was under my speakers. In fact, these inexpensive foundations were more effective than even the Stillpoints Ultra 5s in dissipating energy from my speaker's cabinets resulting in a nice uptick in perceived resolution and clarity.  
  
  
*Agora Acoustics Magic Hexa **Anti Vibration** Feet ($49 for 4)*
  

  
 I won't spend too much time talking about these because they weren't very effective.  They cost $49 for four footers.  
  
  
*VooDoo IsoPods ($100 each)*
  

  

  
 Upon first glance, these appear to be the rubberish-type of footers I described above but they are actually ball-bearing devices.  They work well and are attractive (they come as either black or white footers) but because they work no better than the Black Raviolis and cost about $100 a piece, the Black Raviolis are a better value.
  
  
*Stillpoints Ultra SS ($250 each)*
  

  

  
 The person that recommended these to me was confident these would represent the best bang for the buck with the DAVE.  In his words, "They should blow away all your rubber footers and perform almost as well as the Stillpoint Ultra 5s for a lot less money than the Ultra 5s."  As such, I had high expectations.  I started with 3 footers but 4 were more effective.  These are built to a very high standard and are comprised of heavy pieces of high-grade stainless steel.  They are height adjustable and add an elegant touch to the DAVE as they complement the stainless steel rivets and chrome controls on the top of the DAVE.  Based on aesthetic alone, I would have been happy to move to these footers.  Interestingly, these footers sounded only slightly better than the Black Raviolis.  They resulted in a definite uptick in clarity and detail with better-defined bass compared to no isolation and while they are better than the Black Raviolis (which I could barely discern under blind testing), I found the difference to be too small to pay nearly $900 more.  I found a similar level of improvement against the Black Raviolis under my High Fidelity Cables MC-6 Hemisphere line conditioner.  Where the Ultra SSs proved their worth were under my Oppo SACD transport.  Under the Oppo, both Stillpoints reigned supreme.
  
  
*Stillpoints Ultra 5 ($699 each)*
  

  

  

  
 At nearly $700 a piece, I never believed these would be a great value but I was open to the possibility that they could be so devastatingly good that I couldn't refuse them.  Just to push the envelope, while two Ultra 5s can easily support the DAVE, I also compared what three Ultra 5s would accomplish.  If I thought the Ultra SSs were heavy, these felt 10x heavier.  Just so you know, these footers have no maximum weight capacity and were designed to also work under pianos.  How did they do under the DAVE?  Two Ultra 5s were just as good as three and two Ultra 5s were no better than a quad of Ultra SSs.  While attractive, I would suggest you pass on these for the DAVE if value is a priority.  Like the Ultra SS, they sound great under my Oppo but where they eclipsed everything else by a considerable margin was under a First Watt J2 amplifier (Pass Labs) that I am currently testing.
  
 Black Ravioli Single Pad ($34 each)
  


  
 While not easily seen, pictured above are 4 Black Raviolis between the DAVE and the large KE pad underneath.  They are low profile being only slightly taller than the footers that come with the DAVE.  As they are "pre-loaded," they are capable of dampening or dissipating vibration from even light components.  While they couldn't compete with the Stillpoints underneath components that contain mechanically moving parts (like a CD transport) or a heavy amplifier, underneath the DAVE, they were almost as effective and provided the best bang for the buck. 
  
 In the end, I have decided to stay with my combination of an Acoustic Revive TB-38H and quad of Black Raviolis.  As they say, you have to bring something special to be able to unseat an incumbent and none of these other footers were special enough.  While I could have paired the Acoustic Revive with a quad of Ultra SSs underneath for a slightly improved presentation, this results in a very unappealing aesthetic.  For my tastes, the combination of the TB-38H and Black Raviolis provide the right balance of warmth, resolution, clarity, and value while also providing an appealing aesthetic.  As they say, YMMV.


----------



## isquirrel

Thanks for your interesting comparison Roy, I have some Vortex footers on their way to try under a variety of components, I will let you know how they go. Re the Black Ravioli's I remember Scott from CAD telling me not to put them under certain areas of his DAC as they can mess with the signal, there must be some sort of active component in them, magnetic perhaps. In any case I have always found that I need to pay attention to the placement of any of these systems.


----------



## Rob Watts

kakki said:


> Marantz new SACD player SA-10 converts all the PCM to 11.2Mhz DSD (native DSD will not be up-sampled) and then convert it to analog signals using analog FIR filters.
> 
> I can see 14 MELF precision resistors in the discrete DA conversion section in SA-10 which I assume to be the analog FIR filters.
> 
> ...


 
 Gotta laugh.
  
 I was doing this 25 years ago in an attempt to solve the innate problems of DSD 256 (PDM 256). But I was using multiple, individually dithered noise shapers in an attempt to improve the noise shaper resolution. The benefits of doing this is that it reduces the jitter sensitivity, but does not eliminate correlated jitter problems. It's why in 1995 I invented pulse array as this eliminates correlated jitter (its a fixed switching activity scheme independent upon the output), improves (in the case of Dave) noise shaper resolution by a trillion times and eliminates noise floor modulation - something you can't do with DSD.
  
 What was also amusing is that they seem to be using an 8 bit shift register to re-time the outputs. I too used to do this too in the early 90's, but quickly found that using discrete flip-flops gave much better measured and SQ performance. Its due to switching activity on-chip changing the propagation delay of the OP FF - so making signal correlated jitter much worse. Also, power draw on each FF modulates the devices internal power rail, creating distortion. Using discrete flip-flops eliminates the signal correlated jitter issue, and with appropriate low impedance power planes, one can eliminate the PSU induced distortion problems too.
  
 This issue of correlated jitter problems can't be solved on-chip. A silicon chip design I worked on over ten years ago had this issue; on chip we had separate clock buffers, custom designed IO buffers, internal separate PSU paths, and all we could do was minimize the issue - it was still there on simulation, and still measurable in reality - although we reduced the problem by two orders of magnitude. But going discrete eliminates the issue. 
  
 Rob


----------



## paulkwan

Hi all,
I just have my DAVE for 1 week, except the first 24 hours, it sounds excellent !

I have a few questions see if anyone can share their experience with me.

1. I use it with microRendu, Roon install in NAS. I find it works in DoP mode only, native DSD can't play, read that there is discussion on driver for Linux before, any news on this ? I've encounter twice after I pause playing for a few min, it play bliss noise when I resume play, select next track will resume normal, so I believe I hit the so called DoP error handling problem.

2. I find DSD+ mode sound better for DSD file, more natural and closer to my previous DAC which is good at DSD playback. Any experience with conversion of DSD to PCM at Roon or player ?

3. Any real world experience with XLR output ? I'm considering WW Eclipse 7, wonder if I should take the XLR.


----------



## yellowblue

paulkwan said:


> Hi all,
> I just have my DAVE for 1 week, except the first 24 hours, it sounds excellent !
> 
> I have a few questions see if anyone can share their experience with me.
> ...


 
 Welcome to head-fi, paulkwan! You find your answer to question 1 in this thread.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/787020/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box/540#post_12822449
 The short answer is: It works in DoP only.


----------



## EVOLVIST

@romaz,a very nice write up. I plan to pick up some black raviolis. Still, just to play a little devil's advocate here, the CT-1 Power Cable is designed to magnetize your system, while supplying the best in AC power. The aforementioned Acoustic Revive company, who sells the TB-38H board, also sells a product that is designed to demagnetize your CDs and DVDs (I take it Blu Ray, too), because the only way listen, according to them, is to perfect and imperfect format:
  
https://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/cd_dvd/rd-3_1.html
  
 Of course, this is also the company who sells a $252.00 CD-R which is supposed to perform some kind of magic to your system, just by playing it. http://www.technologyfactory.eu/index.php?item=acoustic-revive---cd-max-the-sound-at-zero-point&action=article&group_id=185&aid=2159&lang=EN
  
 I wonder if it's required to demagnetize the $252.00 CD-R with your $423.99 RD-3 demagnetizer to play it, only to find out that your system has been sufficiently magnetized by the good folks over at High Fidelity Cables.
  
 And then we have the guys and dolls at Chord who just test their product with the same cables they put in the box for you.
  
 I'm reminded of how Samuel Clemons tired of his guests coming over and expecting good cigars after supper, so he went out and bought a bunch of cheap ones, and just took the bands off of his more expensive cigars and put them on the cheapos. His "expensive Havanas" were met with great applause. I was so smitten with the story that whilst in college I decided to take a few Budweiser kegs and fill them up with O'Doul's beer. Sure enough, everyone was as drunk as a vicar by midnight. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Anyway, I really don't know, having not experienced these cables, interconnects and CD-Rs. I have less than zero room to speak. I was just struck my the _seemingly_ incongruous bedfellows the magnet and anti-magnet crowds appear.


----------



## romaz

isquirrel said:


> Thanks for your interesting comparison Roy, I have some Vortex footers on their way to try under a variety of components, I will let you know how they go. Re the Black Ravioli's I remember Scott from CAD telling me not to put them under certain areas of his DAC as they can mess with the signal, there must be some sort of active component in them, magnetic perhaps. In any case I have always found that I need to pay attention to the placement of any of these systems.


 
 Thanks, Simon.  You are the expert in mechanical isolation and so I will see what you have to say about the Vortex footers.  
  
 The Black Raviolis have no magnetic properties.  I know since I inadvertently damaged one and so I cut it in half to see what was inside.  Just to be sure, I tested one with my Trifield Broadband meter this evening and the Black Raviolis exhibit no magnetic properties.  It's possible Scott was referring to overdampening which can happen if dampening is overdone.  
  
 During my conversation with Mike Latvis, as you've suggested, he told me placement should be strategic and certain key segments of a component such as power supplies, large transformers and the analog section should be especially targeted for drainage of vibrations.  Here is a schematic of the DAVE that most of us have seen:
  

  
 As you can see, the power supply is housed in the front/left portion of the chassis and the analog sections are in the front/right and rear/right portions.  I tried to target these areas and perhaps this is one reason why 4 Stillpoints Ultra SSs at each corner sounded better than 3 positioned as a triangle.  At the same time, based on how the internals are coupled to the chassis and as the chassis is a unibody design and is designed to also act as one giant aluminum heatsink, it would seem to me that you could effectively drain from any portion of the chassis but who knows for sure.


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> @romaz,a very nice write up. I plan to pick up some black raviolis. Still, just to play a little devil's advocate here, the CT-1 Power Cable is designed to magnetize your system, while supplying the best in AC power. The aforementioned Acoustic Revive company, who sells the TB-38H board, also sells a product that is designed to demagnetize your CDs and DVDs (I take it Blu Ray, too), because the only way listen, according to them, is to perfect and imperfect format:
> 
> https://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/cd_dvd/rd-3_1.html
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks.  I agree, HFC's magnetic conduction technology is counterintuitive to everything we have been taught.  Most audiophiles work hard to demagnetize their systems.  While most solutions propose to mitigate or repel EMI, HFC looks to harness it for its own purposes.  And not all magnetism is bad.  Without the magnets in your speaker and headphone drivers, sound would not be possible.  I don't claim to understand all that is going on with this technology, only that I like what I hear.  Nothing else has been more effective in allowing me to realize the DAVE's true potential.


----------



## romaz

paulkwan said:


> Hi all,
> I just have my DAVE for 1 week, except the first 24 hours, it sounds excellent !
> 
> Any real world experience with XLR output ? I'm considering WW Eclipse 7, wonder if I should take the XLR.


 
 Hi Paul,
  
 I have real world experience with the XLR outputs.  In fact, I'm testing them now.  If you take the time to read through Rob's posts, you will find that the RCA outputs of the DAVE will hold a slight edge over the XLRs in terms of transparency but by no means do the XLR outputs sound bad.  If you need the massive gain provided by the XLR outputs (such as for driving an underpowered subwoofer), then by all means.  Also, if for some reason your amplifier sounds best through its balanced inputs, you should probably go with the DAVE's balanced outputs.  Given the choice, however, you should go RCA.


----------



## TheAttorney

> Originally Posted by *romaz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Black Ravioli Single Pad ($34 each)


 
 A great comparative review romaz. I like the way theory and practice are compared in a clear manner.
  
 I may just have to get a set of these Black Ravioli pads, particularly as in the UK they are £24 each and free shipping.
 BR also have a base plate that looks rather smart - I like that it's very low. But it is full size width, so a different kind of look to the Acoustic Revive plinth.
  
 How did the BR pads sound on their own, or on the KE base, compared to having them with the Acoustic Revive?
 I.e. is there enough to be gained by getting the BR pads first, then considering the base at a later stage?


----------



## wmns

Not sure if this was asked before but is it possible to switch between filters on Dave with the remote ?


----------



## x RELIC x

wmns said:


> Not sure if this was asked before but is it possible to switch between filters on Dave with the remote ?




In the manual under Setup Options.

http://chordelectronics.co.uk/files/Dave%20Manual.pdf


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> A great comparative review romaz. I like the way theory and practice are compared in a clear manner.
> 
> I may just have to get a set of these Black Ravioli pads, particularly as in the UK they are £24 each and free shipping.
> BR also have a base plate that looks rather smart - I like that it's very low. But it is full size width, so a different kind of look to the Acoustic Revive plinth.
> ...


 
 Thanks, it was your post on the KE pads that got me going finally.  
  
 Yes, the BR pads on their own provided a similar benefit with the DAVE as the Stillpoints but slightly less so.  They add no color to the sound, which is generally what I look for but given that almost everything else I have is geared toward neutrality, I found the added warmth from the Acoustic Revive to be welcome.  You could use your Ikea chopping board and possibly achieve a similar degree of warmth if this is what you desire but when I compared my maple rack against the Acoustic Revive, the Acoustic Revive brought out more treble detail.  Those quartz crystals must be doing something although I have to say, it wasn't a night and day difference.  As you've noticed in your own comparisons with the KE pads, the DAVE by itself sounds pretty good.
  
 From the standpoint of draining and dissipating unwanted vibrational energy from the DAVE, if I had to choose between the BR pads and the Acoustic Revive, it would be a tough choice as they each provide something unique and both together are definitely better than each alone although the BR pads are definitely the less painful to obtain.  If you noticed enough difference with the KE pads, I believe you will find the BR pads to be worth the money.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Dumb question. I'm talking AC vs DC. Answered my own question soon enough.

Grazi.


----------



## maxh22

Do you think the BR pads would also make an improvement with Mojo?


----------



## Kakki

rob watts said:


> Gotta laugh.
> 
> I was doing this 25 years ago in an attempt to solve the innate problems of DSD 256 (PDM 256). But I was using multiple, individually dithered noise shapers in an attempt to improve the noise shaper resolution. The benefits of doing this is that it reduces the jitter sensitivity, but does not eliminate correlated jitter problems. It's why in 1995 I invented pulse array as this eliminates correlated jitter (its a fixed switching activity scheme independent upon the output), improves (in the case of Dave) noise shaper resolution by a trillion times and eliminates noise floor modulation - something you can't do with DSD.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you Rob, for your explanation... it looks that their approach is to use technologies 20 years ago... very enigmatic approach.
  
 Will see how it sounds once it's in the market in Oct.


----------



## maxh22

kakki said:


> Thank you Rob, for your explanation... it looks that their approach is to use technologies 20 years ago... very enigmatic approach.
> 
> Will see how it sounds once it's in the market in Oct.




Well PS Audio's direct stream dac also upsamples to DSD and uses an FPGA to do so. I've heard it a few times and it souded very good. @Torq also likes it.


----------



## romaz

maxh22 said:


> Do you think the BR pads would also make an improvement with Mojo?


 
 I'm not sure.  The Mojo is pretty light but it wouldn't be so expensive to try it and find out.


----------



## Sunya

Rob, what do you think of this DAC concept?
  
_On the first board all incoming digital audio is upsampled to 3.125MHz/32 bits and converted to noise shaped PWM. The two remaining boards are mono DACs, in which a discrete 32-stage FIR DAC and a single-stage 4th[size=10.8333px] [/size]order filtering I/V converter convert the PWM into analogue with a 140dB SNR... distortion remains below the noise floor even for full scale signals._


----------



## romaz

maxh22 said:


> Well PS Audio's direct stream dac also upsamples to DSD and uses an FPGA to do so. I've heard it a few times and it souded very good. @Torq also likes it.


 
 As a former owner of a PS Audio DirectStream and having great respect for Paul McGowan and Ted Smith, the DirectStream isn't in the same league as the DAVE and to my ears, is at least a couple of notches below.  Even my Bricasti and my TotalDac easily outperformed it.  
  
 With that said, however, if any DAC is to improve upon the performance of the DAVE, it would seem to me that it would have to be an FPGA DAC of some sort.  Based on my own experience and admittedly, very finite understanding of DAC technologies, it would make sense to me that a DAC will always be limited by its architecture.  Rob has already detailed very clearly the limitations of the architecture of chip-based DACs and R2R DACs that he couldn't overcome as he sought to perfectly reconstruct the original analog signal before the ADC chopped it up.  This is why he was forced to invent his own path.  While I admire Ted Smith's ability to also invent his own path, his philosophical approach obviously differs from Rob's and so it shouldn't be surprising that their outcomes are also different.  Each individual obviously will have to decide which approach they choose to subscribe to.
  
 As I see new DACs come out that people on other threads are making noise about, I am always intrigued by them and am open to new and novel innovations.  My allegiance is to my own ears and as I did with my TotalDac, I will happily punt the DAVE should I find a better performing DAC.  More often than not, however, the solutions these other DACs present are ways to compensate for rather than overcome the limitations of the architecture they are bound by (i.e. overbuilt power supplies, filters that result in softer more pleasant sounds, etc.) or else they throw out smoke screens and tout impractical characteristics like stratospheric levels of dynamic range that are beyond the capability of a human being to discern or appreciate.  Ultimately, none of these solutions appear to do anything to achieve faithful reconstruction of the original analog waveform, which is ideally what a DAC is supposed to do.
  
 People repeatedly talk about how a DAC sounds rather than how it performs as if a DAC should have a certain flavor.  Here's one to ponder and I don't think there's a right or wrong answer.  Would you prefer to equate a DAC to a rose or to an onion?  On face value, a rose might be the obvious choice.  It is beautiful and fragrant and so who wouldn't want music that was always beautiful and fragrant to listen to?  What happens when you pull away the rose petals, aren't you left with a stem full of thorns?  Well, who really cares as long as you always have those pretty petals to cover them up.  This is how I perceive many DACs, they strive to beautify and cover up.  I see the DAVE as more of an onion.  The digital file you are about to play may be unassuming and plain on the outside but wait until you cut into it and realize there are layers upon layers of rich zesty flavor waiting to be discovered and experienced, enough so that as you cut into this proverbial onion, it's enough to bring you to tears.


----------



## audionewbi

I don't know how relevant it is but the upcoming Sony TA-ZH1ES is also using a FPGA. While usage of FPGA is irrelevant as it comes down to the program code but one thing is clear, thanks to Rob Watts design and as pointed by Romaz whatever progress is to be brought in future of DAC must involve FPGA.


----------



## x RELIC x

audionewbi said:


> I don't know how relevant it is but the upcoming Sony TA-ZH1ES is also using a FPGA. While usage of FPGA is irrelevant as it comes down to the program code but one thing is clear, thanks to Rob Watts design and as pointed by Romaz whatever progress is to be brought in future of DAC must involve FPGA.




I also feel this way, for sure, but it's not just the FPGA. The actual DAC is just as important and Rob invented his Pulse Array DAC to overcome hurdles that the filter on the FPGA just couldn't do on its own. What I like about Rob's solutions to the issues at hand when converting sampled data (digital) to continuous data (analogue) is that he takes a very holistic approach, not just focusing on one thing like may other designers would seem to do. One approach from other designers may solve certain issues, but not address others. To be clear, I'm not saying all DAC designers are like this, but they certainly aren't as open to discuss all the issues at hand like Rob is. A fantastic filter on an FPGA could be seriously hampered by the silicon used for the digital to analogue conversion.


----------



## ecwl

sunya said:


> Rob, what do you think of this DAC concept?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 


This is Mola-Mola's DAC design. Why not just say it? It's still up-sampling to 3.125MHz/32-bit and then to 100MHz PWM so more like 32xDSD (or DSD2048). And as Romaz and Relic have said, Rob Watts has addressed his fundamental issue of PWM/DSD, even at high frequencies, because of signal correlated jitter amongst other things. But obviously, if you already own the Mola-Mola DAC and like the sound, great for you.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Personally, I don't care what Mr.Watts thinks about any other company's product. All I care about is if he thinks he can reach 1 million taps in our lifetime, or is that just in the realm of theory.

I mean, there are other things I'd like to pick his brain about, but it really has nothing to do with somebody else's product. Rob has set his own path, and I respect the hell out of that.


----------



## romaz

With so many DACs available and more DACs coming out all the time, it's impractical to compare them all and even Rob himself has indicated he doesn't have much practical experience with other DACs but knowing the architecture those DACs employ, he is aware of the constraints those DACs are bound to.  As new DACs come out, it is inevitable people will want to know how the latest DACs will perform compared to another DAC.  I thought it would be appropriate to present a compilation of Rob's posts on the matter.  Rob's responses are in blue.  
  
*Here is Rob's response to a question that has been asked of him many times:*
  
_"Rob this is just a philosophical / hypothetical question __i__ have __thaught__ of for a couple of __month__ now, and that is if you feel that the DAVE are superior in the digital and analog section from any other __high end__ DACs, or if you had the __oppertunity__ to handpick bits and solutions from other companies, have you then come up with an even better solution if your __budjet_ _where__ in the $100.000 like the MSB Select II or the DCS Vivaldi stack?"_
  
"Clearly if I thought other solutions were better, then I would already be doing it. I have been designing DAC's for over 27 years, and designing with my own DAC technology for 22 years. That's a long time. Also, I am the only DAC designer who has designed silicon chips too, and had a very successful career on that side. Its given me a very valuable insight into the engineering problems of DAC design with silicon, as well as valuable insight into how these devices are developed.
 
I do get to hear other DAC's at shows, and am interested in the technology. But I have not heard or seen anything that has caught my attention. And just because its 100K does not make it better - too many audiophiles listen with their wallets rather than their ears...
 
I can say for certain that I do things that I know make a big difference to performance, and no other DAC designer does these things.
 
I can also say for certain that Dave sets new measurement standards for DAC's at any price - unfortunately only an APX555 is capable of demonstrating that as Dave has better performance than most test gear. But as a listener how it measures is not too important, but its not appropriate for me to comment on sound quality against other products.
 
But I will say that I have never heard a DAC sound anything like Dave, it is very different. Only you can decide whether it works for you or not."
  
*Regarding the issue of "transparency."*
  
"Designing for high performance audio - when you are interested in making something as truly transparent as possible - is often fraught with uncertainty - you often can't be sure of the right way to do things.
 
But for the interpolation filter in a DAC there is absolutely no uncertainty - if you want to recover the original analogue signal in the ADC at the point it was sampled perfectly you must use an infinitely oversampled interpolation filter with a sinc impulse response. It is as simple and clear cut as that. 
 
The problem is that you can't have infinite oversample, and you can't have an ideal sinc impulse response as this needs an infinite amount of processing - so you have to optimize things to suit the processing you have, and this is where lots of optimizing with careful listening tests come in. But the point I am making is that the closer you get to the ideal, the more accurate you can make the reconstruction.
 
There will come a point where if you increase the oversampling rate and increase the tap length and you will hear no sound quality changes - in short its as close as it needs to be to the ideal - but we categorically have not reached that point yet. That's what is so amazing about how sensitive the ear/brain actually is whilst playing back music. And from a measurement POV we are a long way away from an ideal interpolation filter too - you would need about 100,000,000 taps, or an FPGA that has 100,000 dsp cores (Mojo has 44 dsp cores) for it to measure perfectly. Of course Mojo from a measurement interpolation filter POV measures much closer to the ideal than any other non Chord DAC I have ever seen - at any price point."
  
*Regarding the challenges of building something like the DAVE:*
  
"Absolutely - I don't think people realize how much effort goes into developing something like Dave, particularly as every step in the signal path needs to be designed. Dave's first prototype PCB was designed over three years ago, and that was when the decision was made as to which FPGA, based upon price and - much more importantly - availability. FPGA companies have a terrible habit of launching vapor ware, with actual silicon being readily available many years later.
 
As you say, far more important than the size of the FPGA is knowledge - particularly with the comparatively massive FPGA that is in Dave, and this is something that is on-going. In particular, lots of interesting things are waiting to be discovered with the Davina ADC project."
  
*Regarding how a DAC is supposed to "sound." *
  
"But nobody has heard the perfect DAC (that is one that adds nothing to the sound) so I was prepared to run with it - I certainly was not going to add some noise floor modulation to spice it up a bit. But then I found what was the technical reason for why Hugo had the ability to hear the starting and stopping of notes clearly - and I then improved that ability by designing a WTA filter that ran at 256 FS (that's an FIR WTA output every 88nS). Now this improved the ability to perceive the starting and stopping of notes - and when you can perceive transients properly things sound much faster and sharper and brighter as a consequence.
 
This actually restored the balance (I am uncomfortable with that term as still nobody knows what the perfect DAC would sound like for sure as perceived balance or neutrality is merely an average of all DAC's) and now it was sounding fast and sharp (when the recording demands) and soft and smooth (ditto).
 
If you are ever fortunate enough to get a good seat at a classical (unamplified) concert you will know what I mean - real life can sound ultra smooth, and ultra fast and sharp at the same time. I want my audio to have that range of variation - that's my goal anyway."
  
*Regarding the benefits of Pulse Array DACs:*
  
"The key benefit of pulse array - something I have not seen any other DAC technology achieve at all - is an analogue type distortion characteristic. By this I mean, as the signal gets smaller, the distortion gets smaller too. Indeed, I have posted before about Hugo's small signal performance - once you get to below -20 dBFS distortion disappears - no enharmonic, no harmonic distortion, and no noise floor modulation as the signal gets smaller. With Dave, it has even more remarkable performance - a noise floor that is measured at -180dB and is completely unchanged from 2.5v RMS output to no signal at all. And the benefit of an analogue character? Much smoother and more natural sound quality, with much better instrument separation and focus. Of course, some people like the sound of digital hardness - the aggression gets superficially confused with detail resolution - but it quickly tires with listening fatigue, and poor timbre variation, as all instruments sound hard, etched and up front. But if you like that sound, then fine, but its not for me."
  
*And then there's this one that discusses Pulse Array and jitter:*
  
Pulse Array DAC is innately jitter insensitive. What is not readily appreciated is that different DAC architectures have very different sensitivity to clock jitter. DSD is horribly sensitive to jitter, R2R DAC's are very sensitive, but pulse array is innately insensitive. The reason for this is that signal switching activity is completely signal independent - it switches in exactly same way whether its reproducing 0 of fully positive or negative. Because of this, when I get some clock jitter, it only creates a fixed noise. Now one of the really cool things that happens today is that PC resources and simulation tools are so good today, in that I can write a simulation, and add some jitter to the simulation, then measure the results using an FFT. From this, I can see exactly what jitter and only jitter does - and this technique has revealed a few surprises. But what it has done is proven that adding random jitter creates zero signal correlated effects to pulse array - no distortion, noise floor modulation at all - just an insignificant level of unvarying random noise. This does not happen with other DAC architectures, as you will then get significant noise floor modulation, distortion and noise shaper related noise. This is because with the other types of DACs, the switching activity is signal related. So DSD has maximum switching reproducing zero, and no switching at 100% modulation. R2R has no activity for zero, but considerable switching activity when the signal changes.
  
*Regarding R2R DAC architecture:*
  
"The problem with R2R DAC's is they create large amounts of distortion - and R2R fanboys like the sound of distortion.
 
I don't. I want to hear the sound of un-amplified music exactly as in the original acoustic, not some souped up distorted sound. And Hugo, when it first came out, got me so much closer to the sound of real instruments in a real space that I had not experienced before with any kind of digital equipment.
 
Each to their own I guess."
  
*Here's another:*
  
"Except the job of a DAC is NOT to reproduce the sampled data perfectly but to reproduce the original bandwidth limited analogue signal that was in the ADC before the signal was sampled. And to do this one must convert from a sampled signal and convert it to a continuous waveform - and that actually implies infinite oversampling, something that a R2R DAC can't do as they are limited to 16FS oversampling due to speed and glitch problems. That's one reason (there are many others too) why Mojo filters to 2048FS and has its DAC run at 104 MHz, unlike any other non Chord DAC's."
  
*And another:*
  
"Another major problem with R2R DAC's is their complete inability to accurately reproduce small signals, as it is impossible to perfectly match the resistors - this is categorically not a problem for my pulse array DAC's as element mismatch creates fixed noise not distortion, as all the elements carry the audio signal (unlike R2R DAC's)."
  
*Here is Rob's response to my post as I discussed the details of resistors used in my TotalDac d1-monobloc:*
  
_"I will defer to Rob as always but I have my own contribution to make as I used to own a very good R2R DAC, the TotalDac d1-monobloc.  This DAC incorporates 400 Vishay Foil resistors and Vincent Brient, its creator, went out of his way to use __the more__ expensive variety with a very fine tolerance of 0.01%.  Bought in bulk, these resistors sell for about $20 a piece and so for this DAC, the resistors alone cost about $8,000 (a reason why R2R DACs are so expensive).  Obviously, he felt it was important to pay this premium from __a SQ__ standpoint because the Vishay Foil resistors with a lesser tolerance of 0.05% cost 25% less.  He could have gone for the best (0.005% tolerance) but that would have more than doubled the cost to $50 per resistor.  Even at that, this suggests no 2 resistors will be 100% the same."_
  
"Just to give you an idea of the scale of the problem - imagine that we wanted a R2R DAC that could resolve to an accuracy of -350 dB - the performance that I get with Dave's noise shapers, and the spec for which was based on listening tests of depth - then if we want to guarantee -350 dB accuracy then that implies a resistor accuracy of 0.000000000000003%. That's why the idea that you need noise shapers to be that accurate is so crazy - and the implication that the brain can detect this level is also crazy. Indeed, I was actually reluctant to talk about this issue, as the numbers are so tiny. But at the end of the day, I stand by my listening tests, and I have been pleased that other listeners has discovered the same thing about Dave in that it portrays depth very unusually.
  
But you may argue that there is something odd about noise shaping that does not apply to R2R DAC's in regards to depth - I think not, as I have had un-measurable small signal errors that degrade depth, and all R2R DAC's suffer with measurable small signal distortion - but there is another way of looking at the problem. One of the interesting things I got out of the Dave project was reducing high order distortion products and finding out how very audible they were. To match Dave's THD performance you would need resistors of 0.000003% tolerance.
 
Now whether you need  0.000000000000003% or 0.000003% they are both not possible to achieve. Even if you could match those levels, by hand selection, you could never guarantee matching, as resistors naturally drift, and will always have temperature differences, thus changing the value too. Even the PCB tracks would present a problem - 0.000003% for a 1k ohm resistor is 30 thousandth of an ohm - you can't even etch copper to that accuracy! This of course ignores the switching components which is impossible to match at this kind of level, let alone the problems of getting the timing to be accurate enough. For  0.000003% accuracy, with a 16FS R2R DAC, you would need a timing accuracy of 40 femto S applied to the clock, clock tree, and all of the switching components together. To give you a scale of the problem, the best silicon device I worked on had 4,000 fS accuracy from switching element to switching element, and this used FETs that were very much faster than the FET that has a low enough RDS on for a R2R DAC.  Indeed, you would need to place all components to a 6 micron accuracy so they all had the same delay. This of course ignores the fact that 16FS from a timing of transients accuracy is not good enough either.
 
This gives you a tiny flavor of the challenges that one has in designing R2R DAC's, and why it would be impossible to match Dave's performance with them."
  
*Regarding Delta Sigma / silicon DACs, here is Rob's response to someone claiming ESS chips are more complex and therefore, more capable than the Hugo:*
  
_"There is no way the Hugo is a lot more complex than the top end ESS chips.  My guess is that it is less complex.  Luckily, it is a hard fact that can be proven..ESS could easily do what the core Hugo chip does, but not the other way around."_
  
"Your implication that Hugo has only 2 or 3 times the taps, or is less complex than conventional DAC's is clearly absurd. Conventional silicon ASIC DAC's generally have a single 12MHz DSP core to do the interpolation filter function, and it has been this way for 30 years. Hugo has 16 cores running at 208 MHz - that's like comparing an Intel i7 against an 8086. So why don't conventional silicon DAC's have more taps? It comes down to 2 things; awareness (they think it does not matter) and cost. Cost is the paramount driver in ASIC DAC's, to re-coup the substantial investment cost it must sell in very large volumes - that means not for the high-end (audiophool is the usual term) market. FPGA's now provides orders of magnitude of more functional complexity than ASIC DAC's - but they are an order of magnitude more expensive, and they need considerable investment in design work and expertise.
 
The second major disadvantage of ASIC silicon DAC's are the inherent problems that silicon has - noise and innate non-linearity. Resistors are non-linear, capacitors are also non-linear, substrate and electromagnetic noise is a major problem. Now discrete DAC's (the FPGA is only the digital part, the DAC element is done with discrete components) do not suffer from these problems, but getting a discrete DAC to work with excellent performance is *not* easy. It has taken me 30 years to perfect my discrete DAC's, and I am still making improvements."
  
*Are all FPGA DACs the same?  If you ever want to get Rob mad, just suggest that they are.  Here one poster suggesting that the Nagra HD, another FPGA **DAC** and the DAVE do things the same:*
  
_"Nagra avoided super clocks, used FPGA, __special__ algorithm for time correction.".........remind you of any other DACs?"_
  
"Sorry, but I don't usually comment on other companies products, but the statement that this reminds you of other DAC's (Dave) really raised my blood pressure.
 
Lets look at each statement in turn:
 
"Nagra sees the quantization noise of 16‑bit/44.1kHz digital audio, and the methods used to quell that noise"
 
There is absolutely no problem with quantization noise, if correctly done, as it adds a fixed unvarying noise. Because it is unvarying, it has no consequence on the brains ability to separate instruments, define placement in the sound stage, determine timbre and transients and so has no effect on musicality (that is the ability to enjoy music emotionally).
 
The scary thing is the statement "methods use to quell that noise". What on earth does that mean? The dither is part of the recording, and applied in the analogue domain, so it is the actual signal you want to reproduce. Nobody quells that noise, as how do you separate it from the intended signal?
 
"Crude brickwall filters that block out any noise above 22.1kHz can undermine phase above 10kHz"
A brickwall filter is an FIR symmetric filter and these are guaranteed to be linear phase, so this statement is just plain wrong.
 
"while conventional oversampling and interpolation methods are a cure that Nagra believes is often worse than the disease."
What are they saying here? NOS? That topology creates enormous timing errors, and that is the complete opposite with what I do.
 
"Nagra instead concentrated on the goals of getting the extraction and converting of data absolutely right, without resorting to ‘cheating’ (oversampling)."
Again completely diametrically opposed to what I say. The job of a DAC is NOT to reproduce the digital data, but to reproduce the analogue bandwidth limited signal at the point it is sampled in the ADC. To perfectly create the analogue signal in the digital domain requires infinite oversampling. This is also the only way to reduce jitter sensitivity, and eliminate noise floor modulation, an effect for which the brain is extremely sensitive to. You absolutely can't refer to oversampling as cheating, as it gets the signal much closer to the original analogue signal. But of course, if your intention is to create distortion and noise, then by all means refer to oversampling as cheating, as it won't allow you to achieve your goal of more distortion and noise floor modulation.
 
"Add to that a custom time-correction algorithm, in place of the usual demands for atomic clocks at this grade, to keep this DAC temporally precise"
Confusing two separate and independent things. The interpolation filter algorithm (if that's what they are talking about) can not change the requirements for the master clock, which depends principally upon the DAC topology. 
 
"and the result is the removal of that quantization noise up to so far beyond the audio band, its impact is effectively completely eliminated"
The quantization noise of 16‑bit/44.1kHz digital audio? That won't get touched at all by any such process. Are they talking about the quantization noise from the noise shaper? In which case don't use DSD, oversample at high rates, and run the noise shaper with n bit quantizer also at high rates (like my 2048 FS). DSD at 128 FS creates vast amounts of out of band noise with typically -20dB down at 200 kHz. You can never refer to noise at 200 kHz at -20dB as "its impact is effectively completely eliminated."
 
And yes, my previous posting recently confirmed that it was impossible to properly reproduce depth using DSD, as the noise shaper resolution is inadequate. Dave has noise shapers with a trillion times more resolution than traditional DSD noise shapers.
 
So no, this DAC bears absolutely no similarity with my work - it may have FPGA's, and not use atomic clocks, but that's the only similarity."
  
*And my favorite:*
  
"As to other companies?" No not really, I am off on my own trek. There is nobody else walking on this path, which is why I am not bothered about the possibility of giving valuable information away. This stuff is complex and takes many years to get right and generally engineers with advanced technical skills (there are very few) generally don't do listening tests, and the people that do listening tests don't have the skills. For example, I have been bleating on about long tap length WTA filters for 15 years, and the rest of the industry has simply ignored it and yet this is a simple concept proven by maths. I am still amazed nobody else has long tap length filters...."


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## theveterans

> For example, I have been bleating on about long tap length WTA filters for 15 years, and the rest of the industry has simply ignored it and yet this is a simple concept proven by maths. I am still amazed nobody else has long tap length filters...."


 
  
 True. Yggdrasil's digital filter only has around 18000 taps while Mojo exceeds it by about 8000 taps (26000 taps total). Probably why Mojo sounds less distorted than any Schiit's R2R DACs, but YMMV of course.


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## mlxx

I had a very odd experience first time listening to the Dave. It was from a Windows desktop (USB) running Tidal to a 2014 and a 2016 LCD3. The volume was at -20dB. It was overly dark and very thick sounding, like it wasn't been driven properly. Seemed like there was no treble at all, no sparkle like the LCD3 usually has. I have tried the LCD3 on many high end systems and never heard it sound like this.
  
 However, there was lots of depth especially at the front and it was very clean with no distortion at all. Later on when I was home and listened to my Conductor (with Sabre DAC) it now was sounding harsh and a bit distorted in comparison, but its tone sounded right. Not sure if it was a dud, I think I might have to find somewhere else to try it again just to be sure. So all this has left me very confused.


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## EVOLVIST

mlxx said:


> I had a very odd experience first time listening to the Dave. It was from a Windows desktop (USB) running Tidal to a 2014 and a 2016 LCD3. The volume was at -20dB. It was overly dark and very thick sounding, like it wasn't been driven properly. Seemed like there was no treble at all, no sparkle like the LCD3 usually has. I have tried the LCD3 on many high end systems and never heard it sound like this.
> 
> However, there was lots of depth especially at the front and it was very clean with no distortion at all. Later on when I was home and listened to my Conductor (with Sabre DAC) it now was sounding harsh and a bit distorted in comparison, but its tone sounded right. Not sure if it was a dud, I think I might have to find somewhere else to try it again just to be sure. So all this has left me very confused.


 
  
 What tracks were you listening from Tidal? Maybe I'm waaaaaay off course here, but most of the stuff on Tidal is new(ish) and therefore a part of the overtly compressed/limited/brickwalled mastering philosophy that has been prevalent since roughly 1992. These lusterless, flat and fatiguing recordings have been the bane of audiophilia for decades now, and are not limited to popular music, but also many classical, jazz and popular live recordings have suffered the same fate.
  
 I'm just throwing that out there, since that's one of the few stumps I stand upon. Indeed, I would rather judge a DAC on the quality of how it reproduces tape hiss from a second generation master, rather than be afflicted by music so dynamically compromised.
  
 I'm not even addressing your observation fairly, am I?
  
 My harmless rant just gave me a sickening thought, though. Rob Watts is designing what is probably the most advanced ADC ever created, and delightful music will be recorded without many of the gremlins that has affected digital audio over the last, what is it, 40+ years (1970-1971)? However, as soon as the mastering engineer gets his/her mitts on it, it'll be squeezed lifeless before it ever draws breath. That's roughly 85% of recorded music in 2016.


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## mlxx

evolvist said:


> What tracks were you listening from Tidal? Maybe I'm waaaaaay off course here, but most of the stuff on Tidal is new(ish) and therefore a part of the overtly compressed/limited/brickwalled mastering philosophy that has been prevalent since roughly 1992. These lusterless, flat and fatiguing recordings have been the bane of audiophilia for decades now, and are not limited to popular music, but also many classical, jazz and popular live recordings have suffered the same fate..


 
  
 It was Thriller album. At first I thought it may be the 2016 LCD3 which I had never heard before but my 2014 LCD3 was exactly the same. It was basically unlistenable and by the time I got to Billie Jean I gave up. I have been playing with the EQ here now and if I mute everything above 10kHz I get something similar sounding.


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## GreenLeo

theveterans said:


> True. Yggdrasil's digital filter only has around 18000 taps while Mojo exceeds it by about 8000 taps (26000 taps total). Probably why Mojo sounds less distorted than any Schiit's R2R DACs, but YMMV of course.


 
 Do you mean that Mojo sounds better than the Yaggy?


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## Rob Watts

You will find Dave sounds very different on different recordings - so dark rich recordings will sound exactly that way - sharp bright and incisive will sound that way too. Other DAC's have a fixed footprint, so you listen to the DAC, and every recording sounds similar - not so with Dave.
  
 On another topic - one thing I seem to have noticed - and I wonder if anybody else has - is that Dave allows you to hear differences in headphones much more easily. By this I mean the individual sound of a particular headphone is much more pronounced. 
  
 Rob


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## x RELIC x

mlxx said:


> I had a very odd experience first time listening to the Dave. It was from a Windows desktop (USB) running Tidal to a 2014 and a 2016 LCD3. The volume was at -20dB. It was overly dark and very thick sounding, like it wasn't been driven properly. Seemed like there was no treble at all, no sparkle like the LCD3 usually has. I have tried the LCD3 on many high end systems and never heard it sound like this.
> 
> However, there was lots of depth especially at the front and it was very clean with no distortion at all. Later on when I was home and listened to my Conductor (with Sabre DAC) it now was sounding harsh and a bit distorted in comparison, but its tone sounded right. Not sure if it was a dud, I think I might have to find somewhere else to try it again just to be sure. So all this has left me very confused.




Not unexpected at all from my experience. When I went from the HA-1 (Sabre ESS9018) to the Mojo it was interesting that the Mojo sounded smoother, but I could still pick out the detail easily. Going back to the Sabre it become easy for me to pick out the shortcomings of the DAC in comparison. Rob has spoken at length about DACs adding digital hardness that initially sounds like detail, but it isn't. 

As Rob has mentioned before, as romaz just posted above, this aggression can be fatiguing:



> _"And the benefit of an analogue character? *Much smoother and more natural sound quality, with much better instrument separation and focus*. Of course, some people like the sound of digital hardness -* the aggression gets superficially confused with detail resolution* - but it quickly tires with listening fatigue, and poor timbre variation, as all instruments sound hard, etched and up front. *But if you like that sound, then fine*, but its not for me."_



(bold emphasis added by me)

I heard this quite quickly comparing the HA-1 DAC to the Mojo (and earlier comparing the R2R AGD DAC-19 to the HA-1). My point is that some DACs make everything sound _hard_ and you may have simply become used to it. I've sold the HA-1 before I aquired my DAVE so I haven't compared them directly. If the track has hard sounds then the DAVE will present it as hard. If the track has a smooth sound then the DAVE will present it as smooth. The depth, as you note, is fantastic with the DAVE and something I find particularly addicting with the Focal Utopia.

My advice is to give your brain some time to forget the sound of the overtly etched, smeared, and bright sound of ESS9018. At least that's how I felt about the ESS in the end. Then again, if the Conductor's tone is preferable to you then that's what really matters.

Edit: Rob answered above more efficiently than myself.


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## x RELIC x

rob watts said:


> You will find Dave sounds very different on different recordings - so dark rich recordings will sound exactly that way - sharp bright and incisive will sound that way too. Other DAC's have a fixed footprint, so you listen to the DAC, and every recording sounds similar - not so with Dave.
> 
> On another topic - one thing I seem to have noticed - and I wonder if anybody else has - is that Dave allows you to hear differences in headphones much more easily. By this I mean the individual sound of a particular headphone is much more pronounced.
> 
> Rob




Yes, I notice this as well Rob. Actually, to me, that's a testament to the DAVE not adding undue colouration.


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## mlxx

rob watts said:


> You will find Dave sounds very different on different recordings - so dark rich recordings will sound exactly that way - sharp bright and incisive will sound that way too. Other DAC's have a fixed footprint, so you listen to the DAC, and every recording sounds similar - not so with Dave.


 
  
 It is a long story actually, first I couldn't find a parking spot after driving around for 30mins so I parked in a loading zone. I was willing to get a ticket to get a chance to listen to it. This was a speaker store and they stuck the Dave on one of the admin pc's at the back for me to listen so as to not take up one of the speaker rooms. The pc had their email stuff up on the screen so I really didn't want to touch it after they got it playing. It sounded way too dark for me and I thought there must be something wrong with the setup or the unit, that this can't be what everyone is raving about and I didn't want to get a ticket anymore so I left after that.
  


x relic x said:


> Not unexpected at all from my experience. When I went from the HA-1 (Sabre ESS9018) to the Mojo it was interesting that the Mojo sounded smoother, but I could still pick out the detail easily. Going back to the Sabre it become easy for me to pick out the shortcomings of the DAC in comparison. Rob has spoken at length about DACs adding digital hardness that initially sounds like detail, but it isn't.
> 
> As Rob has mentioned before, as @romaz just posted above, this aggression can be fatiguing:
> (bold emphasis added by me)
> ...


 
  
 I know the sabre has a bad rep especially the one in the Conductor and I have always been looking for a better DAC (for one that blows me away not one that is a little bit better). I tried the Yggy (but not one that has been on for a week), the M51, Vega etc, but they where still very close sounding, not really worth it for me. I could hear that the Dave was very very clear and spacious, but wow, if this is how it is meant to sound, it will take me a year to get used to this. It is just way too dark.


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## EVOLVIST

rob watts said:


> You will find Dave sounds very different on different recordings - so dark rich recordings will sound exactly that way - sharp bright and incisive will sound that way too. Other DAC's have a fixed footprint, so you listen to the DAC, and every recording sounds similar - not so with Dave.




This makes perfect sense of a DAC like DAVE, but the OP said he was listening to Michael Jackson's Thriller album, produced by Quincy Jones and recorded at Westlake Studios in LA, 1982, right to two-inch tape.

I wouldn't consider Thriller an audiophile album (most pop albums aren't), but the album is very tonally balanced throughout, with very little in the way of frequecy conflicts between instruments and voice. The album is certainly not "dark" by any stretch of the imagination. 

That said, the master tapes for the Thriller album are extremely well preserved for their relatively "older" vintage, but there have been some severely compromised remasters out there that have been limited and compressed to death in 2001, 2006, 2008, 2013 and 2015, rendering them unlistenable. 

I'm not sure which master of Thriller Tidal uses (they generally pull the most recent), and which one the OP has at home, but he might have heard one of the rancid remasters and mistook it for the sound of the DAVE.

All of that digital modern compression and limiting can make for a very dark, and often distorted sound.


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## Sunya

ecwl said:


> This is Mola-Mola's DAC design. Why not just say it? It's still up-sampling to 3.125MHz/32-bit and then to 100MHz PWM so more like 32xDSD (or DSD2048). And as Romaz and Relic have said, Rob Watts has addressed his fundamental issue of PWM/DSD, even at high frequencies, because of signal correlated jitter amongst other things. But obviously, if you already own the Mola-Mola DAC and like the sound, great for you.


 
  
 First, the company that makes it is irrelevant to the question about the working concept; second, I haven't asked what you think of it and I don't think you are Rob's spokesman. If Rob doesn't want to share his thoughts on the design (being a product from a competitor) I fully understand.
  
 Anyway, here is a short description about it from Bruno Putzeys.


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## Rob Watts

The problem I have is that Head-Fi have stricter posting guidelines, in particular:
  
  A Member of the Trade may not post subjective assessments or negative comments about the products/services of competitors.
  
 So for example if you had posted about "what are the problems with PWM based DAC's" I could have answered it. But showing a graphic which to anybody that knew a lot about DAC's then put me in a difficult position as its obvious it is Mola-Mola, and I can't then be critical, as I would infringe the posting rules. Moreover, I personally don't want to disrespect anybody else's work.
  
 That said, I have designed PWM based chip DAC's - way back in 2002. I got very good measured performance but I could not get 350 dB noise shaping performance nor could I reconstruct transients to nS accuracy with it as there are fundamental limitations to PWM.
  
 Rob


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## pkcpga

greenleo said:


> Do you mean that Mojo sounds better than the Yaggy?




I actually thought the Yggdrasil didn't sound great when I demod it for two days. I was very unimpressed, was very unrefined sounding and a bit closed in sounding when used for two channel speakers. I was planning on replacing a naim DAC in my office with the Yggdrasil but it went back after two days, I think my mojo even sounds more refined and has better separation with less grain sound than the Yggdrasil.


----------



## theveterans

greenleo said:


> Do you mean that Mojo sounds better than the Yaggy?


 
  
 You have to demo to know. To me, Mojo sounds more analog than any Schiit's multibit DAC, but if you like "dynamic" sound, you might prefer it especially if you listen to a lot of pop, edm and compressed music. For classical, jazz, soft music, Mojo beats it by miles IMO.


----------



## shuttlepod

romaz said:


> *Stillpoints Ultra SS ($250 each)*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you, Roy, for your usual thorough and entertaining roundup of various isolation devices. I have a few thoughts on the subject. First, while I think that isolation is generally undervalued by most audiophiles and is critical to getting the best out of a system, I have personally found that certain components benefit from isolation more than others, and the DAVE is less sensitive to vibration than other components. In fact, almost every other component in my system has benefited more from isolation treatments than DAVE. Thus, my primary turntable sits on a wall-mounted rack, which isolates it from my suspended oak floor. This was a huge improvement. I have eight Stillpoints Ultra SS under my speakers; again, a huge improvement. I'm a big fan of Stillpoints, and it appears that the consensus among Stillpoints users is that they are most effective with the following components (in descending order):  speakers, power supplies and power conditioners, amplifiers, source components. That is certainly my experience. In my system, Stillpoints have outperformed everything else I have tried (which is certainly not comprehensive), including various cones, cork and rubber devices, Finite Elemente Ceraballs, and spikes and various interfaces for spikes.   
  
 My solution for the DAVE is to use the Stillpoints Ultra Minis, which are half the price of the Ultra SS ($125 vs. $250). The Minis are designed for components weighing up to 50 pounds, so the DAVE obviously fits the bill. And, in my opinion, they look better than the Ultra SS under the DAVE because of their smaller footprint, while still retaining good aesthetic compatibility. As Roy said, Stillpoints provide better clarity and detail. I find that the overall sound is more focused and easier to follow. But with DAVE, we are talking a fairly small incremental improvement, nothing transformational. DAVE sounds pretty damn good just sitting on a solid, stable surface. 
  
 Here is a picture of my DAVE with the Minis under them. You will notice that I also have the IKEA cutting board ($15), which I have found to be an ideal interface for the Stillpoints.


----------



## romaz

shuttlepod said:


> I have a few thoughts on the subject. First, while I think that isolation is generally undervalued by most audiophiles and is critical to getting the best out of a system, I have personally found that certain components benefit from isolation more than others, and the DAVE is less sensitive to vibration than other components. In fact, almost every other component in my system has benefited more from isolation treatments than DAVE.


 
 I completely agree, Jon.  As I had stated, during my initial evaluation of the DAVE, I heard no difference between the DAVE without isolation and the DAVE sitting on a pair of highly regarded HRS Nimbus footers.  When my DAVE first came in, it sounded so good just the way it was that when I selected the Acoustic Revive TB-38H, it had more to do with aesthetic appeal than vibrational control.  While vibrational control devices like the Black Raviolis or the Stillpoints do make a difference, the differences, while meaningful, are indeed subtle and this is a testament to the comprehensive thoughtfulness of the DAVE's design.  This is why I had a hard time justifying the Stillpoints Ultra SS or Ultra 5 with the DAVE.  For the price of even 3 Ultra SSs, you can buy a microRendu which would provide considerably more bang for the buck.  While the Stillpoints were better than the Black Raviolis, the difference was just barely discernible making them difficult to recommend if value is a priority.  At half the price, I agree that the Ulta Minis are a much better value and your particular setup is a very attractive one.  
  
 Regarding the TB-38H, I am using this also as a tuning aid.  If your system borders on being bright, I would avoid it but the warmth that the hickory plinth provides is unmistakeable.  For those who seek to subtly alter the tone of their DAVE, consider trying your DAVE under a variety of plinths (granite, MDF, plastic, maple, cherry, hickory, etc).


----------



## EVOLVIST

My DAVE will come in tomorrow. 

I'm going to give it about 200hrs burn in time, which I'm sure is overkill (maybe) before I give it a listen. I was shocked, though, that the last amp I purchased I gave 400hrs burn in and it didn't change one bit. My iDSD micro sure changed after about 300hrs.

Anyway, when I get the DAVE in I'll order 4 BRs. If I don't find enough of a change I can always set them under my computer tower to be on the safe side, since the tower occupies the same desk (from Ikea) that my PS300 and current DAC resides.

I've been contemplating getting a BPT balanced isolation transformer to go between my wall jack and my PS300 Power Plant, but I'm really not sure if it will do any good, since the PS300 turns the juice into a nice and clean sine wave. Being that the DAVE is galvanically isolated, I'm not sure there's much I can do. I might use the bread on some upgraded power cables, instead. 

I'm really vibing on the KISS method for this rig. After all, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.


----------



## lovethatsound

evolvist said:


> My DAVE will come in tomorrow.
> 
> I'm going to give it about 200hrs burn in time, which I'm sure is overkill (maybe) before I give it a listen. I was shocked, though, that the last amp I purchased I gave 400hrs burn in and it didn't change one bit. My iDSD micro sure changed after about 300hrs.
> 
> ...


Enjoy your Dave straight away,listen to it getting better with burn in,or as some might say.brain in.your in for a great feast of musical realism.


----------



## miketlse

evolvist said:


> I'm going to give it about 200hrs burn in time, which I'm sure is overkill (maybe) before I give it a listen.


 
  
 If you don't listen until after 200hrs burn in, how will you be able to know if the burn in has any effect?
  
 You need to listen at zero hours, for the baseline, and then again after 200 hours, then you can compare the two sounds.
 Of course there is always the risk that if you detect no sound difference, you will always feel that you have wasted 200 hours, when you could have been listening to and enjoying your DAVE.


----------



## x RELIC x

evolvist said:


> My DAVE will come in tomorrow.
> 
> I'm going to give it about 200hrs burn in time, which I'm sure is overkill (maybe) before I give it a listen. I was shocked, though, that the last amp I purchased I gave 400hrs burn in and it didn't change one bit. My iDSD micro sure changed after about 300hrs.
> 
> ...




Why deprive yourself? Surely you'll miss out on 200hrs brain burn in.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3525#post_12709179


----------



## EVOLVIST

Hmmmm...maybe I will take a different approach this time and just play away. I don't know. But I always do give a piece of gear a listen before I start burn in.

If it had not been a federal holiday, today, I would have had my DAVE today! Bummer.


----------



## EVOLVIST

x relic x said:


> Why deprive yourself? Surely you'll miss out on 200hrs brain burn in.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3525#post_12709179




This is very convincing. Besides, how will I tell if there is really any change after I get the BRs if I'm not already listening? Additionally, my wife really needs to hear this to believe it.


----------



## MacedonianHero

pkcpga said:


> I actually thought the Yggdrasil didn't sound great when I demod it for two days. I was very unimpressed, was very unrefined sounding and a bit closed in sounding when used for two channel speakers. I was planning on replacing a naim DAC in my office with the Yggdrasil but it went back after two days, I think my mojo even sounds more refined and has better separation with less grain sound than the Yggdrasil.


 
  
 I haven't A-B'd my Mojo to the Yggy, but like you, I wasn't impressed with the Schiit DAC either.


----------



## tunes

I am in the process of assembling the best amp/DAC set up at home for my Hifiman HE 1000 and thinking about pairing the McIntosh MA 100 with a higher level DAC such as the Schiit Yggdrasil versus adding a Bricasti M1 versus going solo with the Chord Dave and no amp? Can anyone who has auditioned the HEK with one of these set ups give me an opinion. Once I spend this much on a system it must be my last upgrade! Thanks


----------



## smodtactical

macedonianhero said:


> I haven't A-B'd my Mojo to the Yggy, but like you, I wasn't impressed with the Schiit DAC either.


 
 Wow, its pretty uncommon to see someone who doesn't like Yggy. I guess maybe its not the godlike dac for the money many claim it is.


----------



## pkcpga

tunes said:


> I am in the process of assembling the best amp/DAC set up at home for my Hifiman HE 1000 and thinking about pairing the McIntosh MA 100 with a higher level DAC such as the Schiit Yggdrasil versus adding a Bricasti M1 versus going solo with the Chord Dave and no amp? Can anyone who has auditioned the HEK with one of these set ups give me an opinion. Once I spend this much on a system it must be my last upgrade! Thanks




I don't have hifiman he1000 but I've listened to two of the three listed and choose the Dave, the schiit Yggdrasil is not nearly in the same league as the Dave. I even preferred a similarly priced naim DAC that's older than the Yggdrasil. If you listen to classical music the Yggdrasil has a certain grainy sound and unrefined sound that turned me off to it very quickly. I'd definitely demo it before considering it. I use the Dave's internal amp for my headphones the utopia, hd800, lcd3 and grado gs1000. It powers them very well and sounds great. I'd personally go for the better DAC and if you decide to pick up a separate amp later, I didn't, you can demo the amp with your DAC to make sure the sound combo works for you. I wanted to try the bricasti m1 but surprisingly I live near where they're made but there is no dealers near me. Good luck, I'd demo the Yggdrasil before buying, same with the Dave, I love it but it is a transparent DAC so it doesn't make poor recording sound better, but good recordings really shine.


----------



## MacedonianHero

smodtactical said:


> Wow, its pretty uncommon to see someone who doesn't like Yggy. I guess maybe its not the godlike dac for the money many claim it is.


 
 My friend wasn't a fan and he sold it after a few months...he was far more let down than me.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

tunes said:


> I am in the process of assembling the best amp/DAC set up at home for my Hifiman HE 1000 and thinking about pairing the McIntosh MA 100 with a higher level DAC such as the Schiit Yggdrasil versus adding a Bricasti M1 versus going solo with the Chord Dave and no amp? Can anyone who has auditioned the HEK with one of these set ups give me an opinion. Once I spend this much on a system it must be my last upgrade! Thanks


 
  
 I don't care for the Yggy at all so a system with that as the root wouldn't be my choice.  The M1 is excellent and the Dave is much better.
  
 That said, the cost of each DAC is more than the last: what kind of amp were you thinking of using with the M1?  
  
 As much as I love the DAVE the M1, either right out of it, or through an amp, has a lot of merit especially when preference is taken into account.


----------



## isquirrel

romaz said:


> Thanks, Simon.  You are the expert in mechanical isolation and so I will see what you have to say about the Vortex footers.
> 
> The Black Raviolis have no magnetic properties.  I know since I inadvertently damaged one and so I cut it in half to see what was inside.  Just to be sure, I tested one with my Trifield Broadband meter this evening and the Black Raviolis exhibit no magnetic properties.  It's possible Scott was referring to overdampening which can happen if dampening is overdone.


 
  
 The Black Ravioli's I have are quite different to yours, I was looking through Scott's old emails and maybe I read into incorrectly but I am pretty sure in conversation he mentioned that there was some property of the ones I have that would interfere with the DAC's clock if placed underneath. Hmm, doesn't matter as I don't use them. However I am curious.


----------



## onsionsi

> I am in the process of assembling the best amp/DAC set up at home for my Hifiman HE 1000 and thinking about pairing the McIntosh MA 100 with a higher level DAC such as the Schiit Yggdrasil versus adding a Bricasti M1 versus going solo with the Chord Dave and no amp? Can anyone who has auditioned the HEK with one of these set ups give me an opinion. Once I spend this much on a system it must be my last upgrade! Thanks


 
 I tried HEK with Mojo first and then i purchased the MHA100
 In fact i was very impressed with MHA100 when it extract the beauty of HEK, then i saw many reviewers praised the Mojo DAC over MHA100 built in DAC so i don't hesitate to try out the Mojo with MHA100 and HEK, what i got was more clarity, details and smoothness.
 So, i'm sure there will be an enhancement in high end DAC that you mentioned it.


----------



## lovethatsound

tunes said:


> I am in the process of assembling the best amp/DAC set up at home for my Hifiman HE 1000 and thinking about pairing the McIntosh MA 100 with a higher level DAC such as the Schiit Yggdrasil versus adding a Bricasti M1 versus going solo with the Chord Dave and no amp? Can anyone who has auditioned the HEK with one of these set ups give me an opinion. Once I spend this much on a system it must be my last upgrade! Thanks


Romaz and Jazz both use the he1000 with their Dave,I'm sure if you pm them,they would help you out.☺


----------



## Christer

isquirrel said:


> The Black Ravioli's I have are quite different to yours, I was looking through Scott's old emails and maybe I read into incorrectly but I am pretty sure in conversation he mentioned that there was some property of the ones I have that would interfere with the DAC's clock if placed underneath. Hmm, doesn't matter as I don't use them. However I am curious.


 
 Neither  a bag of lentils, or  rice nor the  Scotch brites which I keep under my Hugo, will interfere with any clocks. But  will provide all isolation needed.
 Sometimes I have to laugh out loud, at the expenses and super expensive  materials some people seem to need before their vanity and bragging rights are satisfied.
 Do any of you guys ever listen to music for music ´s sake?


----------



## Christer

evolvist said:


> My DAVE will come in tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Absolutely right approach imo. Do give it at least 200 hours of burn in before listening to it. And equally important, don´t forget to walk anti-clockwise around it at a full moon 200 times too.
 Otherwise you might end up very  very disappointed.


----------



## EVOLVIST

christer said:


> Absolutely right approach imo. Do give it at least 200 hours of burn in before listening to it. And equally important, don´t forget to walk anti-clockwise around it at a full moon 200 times too.
> Otherwise you might end up very  very disappointed.




Oh wow, you're so right! I don't know why I didn't think of that. I could even add a bit of nose candy before each listening session, and maybe a few hookers and midgets. This is going to be so great! I'm excited!


----------



## rkt31

I am not an electronics engineer but since I have interest in audio video and having read so many articles and posts in this forum, my take for yggy is like this. r2r dacs can be nos or Os. in a forum some member posted recorded clips of his phasure nos and yggy . I myself listened to those clips and I would say the clip of nos dac sounded to me a lot congested as compared to yggy. yggy clip sounded crisp and clear. still the poster kept on speaking in favour of his nos dac. though as per him phasure nos dac was fed with upsampled output from highend audio player. from this I could gather that nos dac may also require upsampling/oversampling to sound good. now coming to yggy , being r2r dac with oversampling feature , it need to be fed with exact 24bit resolution after oversampling unlike ds dacs which don't have such limitations and in ds dacs the stream is at much higher sample rate ( though with lesser bits) . so the designer of yggy saying that they retain original samples after oversampling is more to do with a limitation of r2r than advantage as r2r chip can take only max 24 bit resolution ( that also truncated to 20bits before feeding it to r2r chip) with 4x or so oversampling. while in ds dac like chord dacs the extremely high sample rate stream is fed to pulse array dac. I have not heard yggy but imho even mojo should sound better than yggy based on solely the specs alone. and hugo should easily trounce yggy for sq. I listened to hugo few days back after about 4 months . I used 3 jitterbugs with laptop and short USB cable having two small ferrite cores with hugo. that was the end game for me. it sounded so much more neutral with exact feel of live event.


----------



## GreenLeo

pkcpga said:


> I actually thought the Yggdrasil didn't sound great when I demod it for two days. I was very unimpressed, was very unrefined sounding and a bit closed in sounding when used for two channel speakers. I was planning on replacing a naim DAC in my office with the Yggdrasil but it went back after two days, I think my mojo even sounds more refined and has better separation with less grain sound than the Yggdrasil.


 
  
  


theveterans said:


> You have to demo to know. To me, Mojo sounds more analog than any Schiit's multibit DAC, but if you like "dynamic" sound, you might prefer it especially if you listen to a lot of pop, edm and compressed music. For classical, jazz, soft music, Mojo beats it by miles IMO.


 
 and many replies from other headfiers...
  
 Thanks guys.  I'm surprised that Yggy < Mojo because this is not the finding from Torq from another thread in Headfi.  I have no intention to stir up a war but just want to find the honest opinions from the thread followers here.
  
 I'm told that Yggy was pretty sensitive to the source for the USB input.  May I ask the source of the USB input for the headfiers here who find Yggy is inferior to the Mojo?  DAVE is too far for me to reach yet.  I do know that this thread is for DAVE and if this question is too much a detour, the moderator please delete it.  Just I do not know where to put my question.  
  
 Thank you and Regards,
 GL


----------



## EVOLVIST

@Rob Watts, does the crossfeed functions in the DAVE add reverb to achieve its effect?


----------



## Rob Watts

No, its the same as an analogue cross-feed but done digitally.
  
 Rob


----------



## thunder 99

Mr Watts, Is there any chance you may be releasing a DAC only version of the DAVE to maybe cut down on costs?


----------



## x RELIC x

thunder 99 said:


> Mr Watts, Is there any chance you may be releasing a DAC only version of the DAVE to maybe cut down on costs?




Surely the extra cost of the analogue output of the DAC (that's brilliantly able to drive headphones as well) is insignificant.

If you read the informative posts from Rob you will understand the headphone 'amp' is really a simple design and that you are hearing the DAC, not a superfluous 'amp' added in the chassis. Think of the headphone drive more as a variable line-out from the DAC and VERY transparent.


----------



## JaZZ

christer said:


> Neither  a bag of lentils, or  rice nor the  Scotch brites which I keep under my Hugo, will interfere with any clocks. But  will provide all isolation needed.
> Sometimes I have to laugh out loud, at the expenses and super expensive  materials some people seem to need before their vanity and bragging rights are satisfied.
> Do any of you guys ever listen to music for music ´s sake?


 
  
 My own reservation against this kind of gear with this kind of price tags has a similar background: How can effective damping require such a sophisticated high-tech design with expensive materials and thousands of hours of development efforts? I strongly suspect that the same effect can be achieved with a cheap DIY design – maybe you just have to do some experiments to get this far or almost as far for a fraction of the asked price – which borders on usuries in my book.
  
 I'm not even disputing the benefit from such damping tools, since some trustworthy Head-Fiers confirm it. But one thing I wonder: Is there also an effect in the case of pure headphone listening, or are the reports exclusively referring to speaker listening? In the latter case the benefit from damping against vibrations through solid-borne sound from the furniture on which the DAVE stands, which on its part is excited by air-borne sound waves from the speakers, is kind of plausible. The only question is how it can have an impact on the electronics and thus the analogue signal emitted by the DAVE. From what I know Rob acknowledges such a possiblity, and maybe he's willing to explain. But in the case of headphone listening, I don't see a possiblity of a furniture anywhere in a living/listening room not affected by aircraft or traffic noise to transfer some vibrations to the DAVE that are neither felt nor heard. So how is your take for this second scenario? Is the DAVE (without any moving parts in it) supposed to develop some vibrations itself that need to be dampened?


----------



## EVOLVIST

jazz said:


> My own reservation against this kind of gear with this kind of price tags has a similar background: How can effective damping require such a sophisticated high-tech design with expensive materials and thousands of hours of development efforts? I strongly suspect that the same effect can be achieved with a cheap DIY design – maybe you just have to do some experiments to get this far or almost as far for a fraction of the asked price – which borders on usuries in my book.




Yeah, I've wondered the same thing, in that if I'm just listening on cans what sort of vibratory action is going on around me to need a product to squelch the fuzzy warbles.

At any rate, I didn't get my DAVE today, because I guess the regular postman doesn't deliver anything but floppy envelopes. I'll have to wait at the house for the postman to ring twice.

So, in much defiance to Christer, tonight will be spent in a vacuum of no blow, nor little people, and no ladies of ill repute.

I'm sunk.


----------



## Jawed

http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/

I remember Townshend audio talking about, amongst other things, oceanic tidal forces affecting sound.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jawed said:


> http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/
> 
> I remember Townshend audio talking about, amongst other things, oceanic tidal forces affecting sound.




Oh, because maybe he's got something to sell?

I'm not saying he's a huckster, but I'm not saying that Margaret Thatcher is living in Ibiza, either.

His products look nice, though. Very.


----------



## theveterans

> Thanks guys.  I'm surprised that Yggy < Mojo because this is not the finding from Torq from another thread in Headfi.  I have no intention to stir up a war but just want to find the honest opinions from the thread followers here.
> 
> I'm told that Yggy was pretty sensitive to the source for the USB input.  May I ask the source of the USB input for the headfiers here who find Yggy is inferior to the Mojo?  DAVE is too far for me to reach yet.  I do know that this thread is for DAVE and if this question is too much a detour, the moderator please delete it.  Just I do not know where to put my question.
> 
> ...


 
  
 You can post it on Life after Yggy or in Chord Mojo/Hugo/2Qute and Yggy thread to get some inputs for others who owned both.


----------



## mlxx

After my odd experience the other day with the Dave, I got to try the Hugo and the Mojo.
 I quite liked the Hugo, it was no where near as dark as the Dave, but not as detailed or clear.
 The Mojo was warmer and softer than the Hugo, I didn't like it.
 Is the Hugo generally considered brighter than the Dave? What about the TT, as compared to the Dave?


----------



## Toolman

mlxx said:


> ...Hugo, it was no where near as dark as the Dave


 

 Never knew Dave is considered "dark" by any interpretation


----------



## rkt31

@thunder 99, chord dacs implement volume control digitally. removal of volume control feature may not reduce the cost very significantly specially in case of Dave. imho having volume control inbuilt saves you cash for an expensive preamp. I feed hugo directly to a power amp believe me this way the setup becomes more transparent.


----------



## EVOLVIST

mlxx said:


> After my odd experience the other day with the Dave, I got to try the Hugo and the Mojo.
> 
> I quite liked the Hugo, it was no where near as dark as the Dave, but not as detailed or clear.
> 
> ...




What did you listen to this time on the Hugo and Mojo?


----------



## mlxx

evolvist said:


> What did you listen to this time on the Hugo and Mojo


 
  
 Wanted to compare the same as on the Dave so did Thriller again as well as some of The Wall. Dave unit wasn't there so just going by memory. I could live with the Hugo, it was still a bit dark though, but me coming from a sabre probably isn't helping things. Had a play with the crossfeed also.


----------



## Rob Watts

thunder 99 said:


> Mr Watts, Is there any chance you may be releasing a DAC only version of the DAVE to maybe cut down on costs?


 
 No plans to - there would be tiny savings, as the OP stage needs the performance as it currently is even when driving easy loads.
  
 Rob


----------



## analogmusic

Thanks for clarifying. 
  
 Dave is significantly better than Mojo and Hugo, but it does not mean one cannot enjoy music if you only had a Mojo.

 I was driving yesterday for 90 minutes and really had a very musical time with Mojo in the car.
  
 But still the 3D sound stage of Dave, more refined/more clarity, more musical, it is something worth buying, you only live once !


----------



## Christer

evolvist said:


> Yeah, I've wondered the same thing, in that if I'm just listening on cans what sort of vibratory action is going on around me to need a product to squelch the fuzzy warbles.
> 
> At any rate, I didn't get my DAVE today, because I guess the regular postman doesn't deliver anything but floppy envelopes. I'll have to wait at the house for the postman to ring twice.
> 
> ...


 

 You could  practice the full moon anti-clockwise walk though.
 Cheers Chris .


----------



## GreenLeo

theveterans said:


> You can post it on Life after Yggy or in Chord Mojo/Hugo/2Qute and Yggy thread to get some inputs for others who owned both.




Thanks for the reply, I've read the "Life after Yggy" thread. Somehow Yggy is highly regarded on that thread and both Yggy > Hugo and Yggy > Mojo seems to be the consenus there. However, Yggy seems to be a mediocre DAC on this thread when compare with the Mojo or the Hugo. This is the key reason why I am interested in the opinion of this thread.


----------



## Rob Watts

jazz said:


> My own reservation against this kind of gear with this kind of price tags has a similar background: How can effective damping require such a sophisticated high-tech design with expensive materials and thousands of hours of development efforts? I strongly suspect that the same effect can be achieved with a cheap DIY design – maybe you just have to do some experiments to get this far or almost as far for a fraction of the asked price – which borders on usuries in my book.
> 
> I'm not even disputing the benefit from such damping tools, since some trustworthy Head-Fiers confirm it. But one thing I wonder: Is there also an effect in the case of pure headphone listening, or are the reports exclusively referring to speaker listening? In the latter case the benefit from damping against vibrations through solid-borne sound from the furniture on which the DAVE stands, which on its part is excited by air-borne sound waves from the speakers, is kind of plausible. The only question is how it can have an impact on the electronics and thus the analogue signal emitted by the DAVE. From what I know Rob acknowledges such a possiblity, and maybe he's willing to explain. But in the case of headphone listening, I don't see a possiblity of a furniture anywhere in a living/listening room not affected by aircraft or traffic noise to transfer some vibrations to the DAVE that are neither felt nor heard. So how is your take for this second scenario? Is the DAVE (without any moving parts in it) supposed to develop some vibrations itself that need to be dampened?


 
  
 Dave, in common with all electronics, is (very slightly) microphonic. You can hear this using the AP - set it up so the -128 dB background noise from Dave is a roar from the AP loudspeaker monitor (that would be about 120 dB of gain), then tap Dave's PCB and you can hear tiny clicks through the loudspeaker. On headphones you can't hear it with the Nighthawks but you can just hear it with Noble Kaiser K10 IEM. Note if this was a valve or tube DAC or pre-amp the clicks would have been extremely audible.
  
 So using Dave with loudspeakers one can reasonably expect it would be (slightly) sensitive to vibration - after all I can hear the effects of noise shapers at -350 dB affecting depth, so this is way bigger than that. Also I experimented a lot in the 1980's with vibration control - my turntable was in an 1 inch thick oak double glazed (with half inch thick plate glass) enclosure, and this made a huge difference to turntable sound. My electronics were on stainless steel springs and Italian slate - so I know vibration is important. That is one reason why Dave is in a solid aluminium billet, so I can control vibration. Reducing vibration gives smoother sound, with better depth.
  
 So I am not surprised about it being slightly sensitive with loudspeakers. But I admit I was very surprised to hear reports about it being sensitive with headphones - this I can't see making a difference. That said I have two favorite quotes relating to audio - "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." And somewhat more recently "You know nothing Jon Snow". So yesterday I puzzled over what may be a reason and thought of skirts. When a DAC or oscillator creates a sine wave, when you do an FFT you do not get a straight line indicating a pure tone - it will have skirts. Now these skirts are important subjectively - you hear them as a hardening of the SQ, so reducing the skirts and making an individual sine wave more pure and sharper on an FFT makes it sound smoother. And the ear/brain is very sensitive to this problem. Skirts are caused by low frequency jitter problems, and if you can measure a skirt it is audible. This is why I do not use fempto S clocks or atomic clocks; these have low cycle to cycle jitter, but lots of low frequency jitter, as these oscillators use PLL's - which have poor low frequency jitter performance. So using a fempto clocks measurably increases skirts, and sound much brighter - and its easy to confuse the brightness as more transparency. With Dave, I have no measurable skirts - at least I am at the residual level of skirts that you get with the windowing function of the FFT within the AP.
  
 But the action of low frequency vibration may add more skirts, and so this is a *potential *mechanism for making very small changes to the SQ when you are just using headphones - but it would only have the effect of making it sound a little smoother with lower vibration levels.
  
 I am in Moscow tomorrow, then Dusseldorf, Singapore, Shanghai, Tokyo and finally Ho Chi Min. When I finally get back I think it will be worth investigating, as I am intrigued.
  
 Rob


----------



## ecwl

mlxx said:


> Wanted to compare the same as on the Dave so did Thriller again as well as some of The Wall. Dave unit wasn't there so just going by memory. I could live with the Hugo, it was still a bit dark though, but me coming from a sabre probably isn't helping things. Had a play with the crossfeed also.


 
 If you get to hear the DAVE again, you may want to try listening to Thriller with the HF filter turned off. I think almost every DAVE owner (except one I believe on this forum) prefers the HF filter turned on and I think Rob Watts said he originally designed it for playing back hi-res files and then he found it sounded smoother and darker and better with the HF filter turned on too with CD quality files. But you may like the sounds better with it turned off.


----------



## Beolab

The HF filter does not do that great impact if it ON or OFF.

Maybe their is some delay in the filter to be fully activated before you can hear a difference, but if you only switch back and forth you cant hear any obvious difference on Red Book, because it only cuts the noise very high in frequency, in the un-hearable space, so it should not affect the SQ that much, and are meant for High Res audio with higher frequency span. 

It is most likely something else that are lurking is my best guess. More likely the file or the source in my opinion. 

Maybe Rob can shim in here..


----------



## EVOLVIST

mlxx said:


> Wanted to compare the same as on the Dave so did Thriller again as well as some of The Wall. Dave unit wasn't there so just going by memory. I could live with the Hugo, it was still a bit dark though, but me coming from a sabre probably isn't helping things. Had a play with the crossfeed also.




Well, the eagle has landed. I got my DAVE today, and one of the things I played were two cuts from MJ's Thriller album: my SACD version from 1999.

No darkness at all. I'm fact, it was a little bright as most of the things I listened to on my DAVE. Super clear through HD800s.

I'm telling you, man, most of those Tidal schiznits dynamically compromised in the worst way.

Anyway, I've got a friggin' DAVE!!!!


----------



## bigfatpaulie

Congrats!!  Out of interest, how much of a difference does the P300 make with the DAVE?
  
 The HD800 + DAVE is one of my favorite combos.


----------



## JaZZ

evolvist said:


> Well, the eagle has landed. I got my DAVE today ...
> 
> Anyway, I've got a friggin' DAVE!!!!


 
  
 Congrats, EVOLVIST! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


bigfatpaulie said:


> The HD800 + DAVE is one of my favorite combos.


 
  
 Same here. What a difference a cable makes! New love since it hangs on a Black Dragon.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Thanks, y'all! 

@Bigfatpaulie, as with anything a grain of salt is just that, only a grain, but to me the PS300 was a godsend. It gives me as close to perfect of a sine wave as you'll get, and it's balanced on top of that. You can certainly hear the difference by taking it out of the chain and plugging into the wall. You've lost a lot of clarity and instrument seperation without it. Easily a 15% increase. I can't claim the same thing with any other piece in my chain...not even my iFi iUSB 3.0, which I'm still deciding whether it benefits the DAVE at all. My DAVE is so new that it's difficult to tell.


----------



## x RELIC x

Congrats EVOLVIST!!


----------



## iDesign

I wanted to revisit the discussion about ROON, HQPlayer, and DAVE. Can anyone share screenshots of their Roon + HQPlayer settings? For Audirvanna+ I assume everyone is using the "DSD over PCM standard 1.0" and "Integer Mode 1" settings?


----------



## romaz

jazz said:


> How can effective damping require such a sophisticated high-tech design with expensive materials and thousands of hours of development efforts? I strongly suspect that the same effect can be achieved with a cheap DIY design – maybe you just have to do some experiments to get this far or almost as far for a fraction of the asked price.


 
  
 I believe you can achieve a lot with a cheap DIY design, perhaps not as elegantly or compactly but certainly with equivalent functionality.  I own no Stillpoints or similarly expensive footers but having now experienced how the Stillpoints transformed a large Pass Labs amplifier and my SACD transport, I am a believer and can better appreciate the satisfaction they bring to those that own them.  As @shuttlepod expressed, vibration control under speaker cabinets, power supplies, distribution blocks, and line conditioners can make an even greater difference but I believe the true magic occurs when you "float" your entire system as the cumulative impact can indeed be significant and very satisfying.  Once experienced, I doubt anyone here would want it any other way.  Admittedly, the impact of vibration control was more subtle with the DAVE and while I could easily live with what I get without any special anti-vibration accoutrements, for the small asking price of a quad of Black Raviolis and not having to deal with the unsightly mess of a large sandbag, I have found them worthwhile.  
  


jazz said:


> ...which borders on usuries in my book.


 
 I agree, unfortunately, much of audiophiledom is this way.
  


jazz said:


> But one thing I wonder: Is there also an effect in the case of pure headphone listening, or are the reports exclusively referring to speaker listening?


 
 The benefits of vibration control can be more readily evident with speaker listening but in my opinion, no less important with headphone listening.  An audio signal is extremely fragile and its integrity is easily influenced by any electronic component responsible for its propagation and since all electronic components, even cables, vibrate, you don't need large solid-borne influences from your listening room to impact it.  With the Silver Dragon headphone cable that we both own, for example, notice how microphonic the undamped portion of that cable is with respect to the portion that is thickly insulated and much better damped.  Cheaply made headphone cables can be microphonic throughout and I struggle to understand how this is tolerable to anyone.  For those who have explored a DHC cable like the Complement4 or Prion4, you have undoubtedly noticed there is a Spore option that adds $600.  What does this provide?  Isolation and dampening and it does make a difference and it has nothing to do with isolating against the sonic impact of loud blaring speakers or an exploding subwoofer. 
  
 As DAVE owners, we are more immune to the issues that plague most other headphone and speaker listeners because not only is our DAC nicely isolated against its own induced resonances but so is our preamp and our headphone amp since they are all coupled to the same large billet of aluminium that functions as both drain and dissipator.   For other headphone listeners, especially those that use tube electronics or oversized transformers, internal vibrations caused by the components themselves can be significant.  Just ask those that own a tube headphone amp why they're using tube dampeners and I'm sure all will tell you it's because they make a difference.   This obviously applies even more so to headphone listeners who listen to moving media such as turntables and CD players.  Yes, the loud output from speakers will especially influence these components but I have found that the benefits of vibrational control in terms of black background, clarity, focus and soundstage integrity are easily noticeable even with low volume listening which is how I listen to most of my music these days.   While the benefits of vibration control with the DAVE in my report were largely limited to speakers, the cumulative benefits of floating my DAVE along with my mains cables, line conditioner, power supplies, SACD transport and even my microRendu are well worthwhile on headphones also and need not be expensive to apply.


----------



## romaz

christer said:


> Neither  a bag of lentils, or  rice nor the  Scotch brites which I keep under my Hugo, will interfere with any clocks. But  will provide all isolation needed.
> Sometimes I have to laugh out loud, at the expenses and super expensive  materials some people seem to need before their vanity and bragging rights are satisfied.
> Do any of you guys ever listen to music for music ´s sake?


 
 Right back at you, Christer.  As an owner of a Hugo and HE1000, do you believe your comments will get much sympathy from the audiophile who can barely afford more than his second-hand cassette playing Walkman and the stock headphones that came with it yet loves his music no less than you?
  
 During a conversation with Joshua Bell late last year, he indicated to me that he recently upgraded his $4 million Gibson Stradivarius to another Stradivarius that was worth almost $15 million dollars because it sounded better and allowed him to play better.  It's unfortunate there are those who will automatically assume he did it for the sake of vanity and bragging rights and then go so far as being condescendingly critical on a public forum.


----------



## jelt2359

evolvist said:


> Thanks, y'all!
> 
> @Bigfatpaulie, as with anything a grain of salt is just that, only a grain, but to me the PS300 was a godsend. It gives me as close to perfect of a sine wave as you'll get, and it's balanced on top of that. You can certainly hear the difference by taking it out of the chain and plugging into the wall. You've lost a lot of clarity and instrument seperation without it. Easily a 15% increase. I can't claim the same thing with any other piece in my chain...not even my iFi iUSB 3.0, which I'm still deciding whether it benefits the DAVE at all. My DAVE is so new that it's difficult to tell.


 
@bigfatpaulie sorry for your wallet


----------



## jelt2359

christer said:


> Neither  a bag of lentils, or  rice nor the  Scotch brites which I keep under my Hugo, will interfere with any clocks. But  will provide all isolation needed.
> Sometimes I have to laugh out loud, at the expenses and super expensive  materials some people seem to need before their vanity and bragging rights are satisfied.
> Do any of you guys ever listen to music for music ´s sake?


 
 I understand your point of view. At the end of the day, some people love to pay for electronics (eg. clock), others love to pay for other things (power cords, cables, isolation, power regenerators, wall receptacles, tubes, etc). There are also many articles, many of which have measurements to back things up, 'proving' that these make no difference.
  
 Personally, it was a moment of annoyance (not _another_ tweak to worry about) when I first found that something as innocent as a power cord could make a clearly discernible difference. Today, I'm still not the type of person who'll spend a few K on a power cord, but I don't dismiss it as crazy.
  
 I think your post would be much more powerful if it had been phrased as, for example, 'I've tried these things, that you all find make a difference, but I personally don't hear any improvement'. Also, if you were talking about a Hugo (which I also own, btw), perhaps that would be most useful for those who are browsing the Hugo thread.
  
 Just my two cents.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

evolvist said:


> Thanks, y'all!
> 
> @Bigfatpaulie, as with anything a grain of salt is just that, only a grain, but to me the PS300 was a godsend. It gives me as close to perfect of a sine wave as you'll get, and it's balanced on top of that. You can certainly hear the difference by taking it out of the chain and plugging into the wall. You've lost a lot of clarity and instrument seperation without it. Easily a 15% increase. I can't claim the same thing with any other piece in my chain...not even my iFi iUSB 3.0, which I'm still deciding whether it benefits the DAVE at all. My DAVE is so new that it's difficult to tell.


 
  
 Good to hear.  I really made a mistake by letting my P3 go.  I've been hunting for a P300 because I love the size.  A big congrats again on the DAVE.
  
  


jazz said:


> Congrats, EVOLVIST!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Yes.  I find it is actually becoming my favorite setup.


----------



## JaZZ

romaz said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > But one thing I wonder: Is there also an effect in the case of pure headphone listening, or are the reports exclusively referring to speaker listening?
> ...


 
  
 The «microphonics» we're talking of in headphone cables aren't electrical currents induced by mechanical vibration, just acoustic vibrations (the term is actually wrong for this case, but certainly tolerable in cases with no risk of misunderstandings). As long as there's no magnetic field in close proximity, the risk to get effective microphonics is unlikely. However, I won't exclude some sort of mechanical vibration among the cunductors within the cable induced by the currents and feeding back in the form of harmonic distortion. Maybe that's the reason for the recommendation of cotton as damping component. On the other hand, air is considered the best material for the dielectric, which would be a contradiction...
  


> As DAVE owners, we are more immune to the issues that plague most other headphone and speaker listeners because not only is our DAC nicely isolated against its own induced resonances but so is our preamp and our headphone amp since they are all coupled to the same large billet of aluminium that functions as both drain and dissipator.   For other headphone listeners, especially those that use tube electronics or oversized transformers, internal vibrations caused by the components themselves can be significant.  Just ask those that own a tube headphone amp why they're using tube dampeners and I'm sure all will tell you it's because they make a difference.   This obviously applies even more so to headphone listeners who listen to moving media such as turntables and CD players.  Yes, the loud output from speakers will especially influence these components but I have found that the benefits of vibrational control in terms of black background, clarity, focus and soundstage integrity are easily noticeable even with low volume listening which is how I listen to most of my music these days.   While* the benefits of vibration control with the DAVE in my report were largely limited to speakers*, the cumulative benefits of floating my DAVE along with my mains cables, line conditioner, power supplies, SACD transport and even my microRendu are well worthwhile on headphones also and need not be expensive to apply.


 
  
 I certainly don't dispute the merits of vibration control in the mentioned areas (especially speaker feet, turntables and tubes) and can easily accept the benefit from clean power (without having much corresponding experience), also the culminating effect from all the measures. I was just questioning the damping efforts around the DAVE itself in the case of a pure headphone system. You have elegantly managed to integrate the issue into a holistic view. But my interest specifically circles around the mechanism behind a possible (although implausible) effect from mechanical damping of the DAVE's housing. Against what kind of vibrations?
  
 If we're really talking of inaudible, imperceptible vibrations with origins in movements of the earth crust or traffic, that would be a bad precondition for speaker listening. No matter how well you dampen your electronics, power amps, DACs, not to speak of crossover networks within the cabinets (even when isolated from the driver volume), there's a massive polution taking place, a few magnitudes higher than with every headphone-listening scenario. The available measures are just a drop in the bucket. With this in mind, the effort for fighting 2.5% of the existing interferences doesn't seem worth it.
  
 Of course to each his own, and I don't even ridicule the fight against 2.5% of the interferences if the result is worth it to the one investing his efforts – since the strive for perfection is almost as important and fascinating as the resulting enhancement of listening pleasure. I have high respect for your competence, your perfectionism and the diligence with which you perform your approach, for the benefit of other forum members. My now approach is less perfectionist in practice than it was at my speaker-builder times. Apart from the (age-related) decreasing restlessness – also influenced by the quality level of my now music reproduction system – there's also the wish to dedicate more of my hobby time to music listening instead of searching for further improvements. This goes parallel with a less critical attitude during listening to music and the attempt of finally reaching a state of mind where I can enjoy the music unrestrictedly, at least when it comes to sound quality. But of course there's a backdoor: I like sound editing. And I have to find the optimal equalizer curve for each of my headphones. BTW, that's something I wonder: Most of the people with your kind of perfectionism seem to offhandedly ignore the amplitude response of their headphones (and speakers) and the there potential for massive improvements.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jelt2359 said:


> I understand your point of view. At the end of the day, some people love to pay for electronics (eg. clock), others love to pay for other things (power cords, cables, isolation, power regenerators, wall receptacles, tubes, etc). There are also many articles, many of which have measurements to back things up, 'proving' that these make no difference.
> 
> Personally, it was a moment of annoyance (not _another_ tweak to worry about) when I first found that something as innocent as a power cord could make a clearly discernible difference. Today, I'm still not the type of person who'll spend a few K on a power cord, but I don't dismiss it as crazy.
> 
> ...




Great post! Diplomacy is cool. 

There are very few things that I'm sure of in the audiophile world. I am sure of a DAC that provides the closest to the original audio source that I can get, headphones that provide the same, without overt coloration, and clean power. Otherwise, either I don't have the experiential knowledge, or I have found things to be false (for me, only). I'm not even sure if my tricked out computer, running MS Server2012R2, with Audiophile Optimizer (no filters turned on), is even the best transport for my music. Do I use Jplay mini to listen to my tracks, Jriver with Jplay, Jriver by itself, Bughead Emperor (don't even get me started), HQ Player, or what?

Power cables and interconnects? Man, I don't know. Why don't I just put a double shieled Faraday cage around my whole rig and call it a day? Talk about inexpensive! If I can't get a cell phone signal inside, nothing is getting in, either, right? Maybe. Whatever. 

I just hope that when I die I can say that I had a lot of fun with this hobby.


----------



## miketlse

evolvist said:


> Great post! Diplomacy is cool.
> 
> There are very few things that I'm sure of in the audiophile world. I am sure of a DAC that provides the closest to the original audio source that I can get, headphones that provide the same, without overt coloration, and clean power. Otherwise, either I don't have the experiential knowledge, or I have found things to be false (for me, only). I'm not even sure if my tricked out computer, running MS Server2012R2, with Audiophile Optimizer (no filters turned on), is even the best transport for my music. Do I use Jplay mini to listen to my tracks, Jriver with Jplay, Jriver by itself, Bughead Emperor (don't even get me started), HQ Player, or what?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Go for the faraday cage. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Seriously though, if Rob Watts seems convinced that small vibrations in the DAVE, caused by external sound waves from speakers, or rumble from other sources, can affect the sound from DAVE, it is thought provoking. My instinctive response is no-way! but I am open minded enough to wait with interest, to hear what he discovers when he performs tests, when he returns from his current far east tour.
 This has started me thinking about the implications - if it is possible that even the influence of the tidal conditions can be heard via DAVE, then what is the true noise floor? Can DAVE detect the passage of the earth through the solar magnetic field (including periods of solar flares?) - seriously it does raise the question as to whether there is a correlation between the experiences of DAVE users on this thread, and whether the the sun was more active than usual?
  
 I am just adopting the scientific method, and exploring the possible consequences of some of the recent comments on this thread - but only Rob has the measuring and test equipment, to provide real data. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Listening to music seems simple compared to this.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

I'm just going to go back to enjoying listening to music.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Good luck on all this, folks.


----------



## Beolab

miketlse said:


> Go for the faraday cage.
> 
> Seriously though, if Rob Watts seems convinced that small vibrations in the DAVE, caused by external sound waves from speakers, or rumble from other sources, can affect the sound from DAVE, it is thought provoking. My instinctive response is no-way! but I am open minded enough to wait with interest, to hear what he discovers when he performs tests, when he returns from his current far east tour.
> This has started me thinking about the implications - if it is possible that even the influence of the tidal conditions can be heard via DAVE, then what is the true noise floor? Can DAVE detect the passage of the earth through the solar magnetic field (including periods of solar flares?) - seriously it does raise the question as to whether there is a correlation between the experiences of DAVE users on this thread, and whether the the sun was more active than usual?
> ...




Maybe we should e-mail all studios and ask if they got Stilpoints under their recording gear, then ask if Tidal got their music servers on steady Stillpoints, so we make a stable vibration free chain all the way. 

I have to say i can sleep very good without them. I could buy them just because of the looks maybe., 

Have a great listening evening.. !


----------



## romaz

miketlse said:


> Go for the faraday cage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Those who don't care at all about the science of sound or vibration control and would prefer to simply go back to enjoying music, feel free to completely ignore this post.
  
  
 It would appear that for many, vibration control for headphone listening is a voodoo concept not worthy of serious discussion but, personally, I, too, like to understand how to explain certain observations that are not easily explained.  I don't claim to be an expert on vibration control but I am indeed intrigued by comments Rob and other experts in the field have made as I am by my own observations that have been reproduced by others (not necessarily with the DAVE but other electronics similarly housed in heavy billets of aluminum).  Personally, the idea that tidal conditions and solar magnetic fields can routinely influence SQ is a bit far fetched.  Nor am I convinced that the SQ differences that are heard with devices like Stillpoints are predominantly due to external environmental forces.  Based on my discussions with those more knowledgeable and experienced in this field than myself, internal resonances produced by any and all electronic components have at least as much to do with it (and this would include cables and speakers since they pass electricity).  In other words, the enemy is _within_ and this would potentially explain how differences can be heard in a headphone system.
  
 Shuttlepod's assessment that in his system, after speakers, vibration control seems to make the most difference with his power supplies and line conditioner, seems to be an assessment mirrored by many.  This has puzzled me but the best explanation that has been provided to me is because AC, as an alternating or oscillating current, is vibrational by nature and so draining away and dissipating the secondary vibrations that occur as a consequence can lead to noticeable improvement in SQ.  Of interest, with my HFC MC-6 Hemisphere line conditioner, I found no significant benefit with my vibration control devices, however, could this be due to the gelatinous matrix present within the Hemisphere that was designed to quell internal resonances or the Furutech NCF receptacles used that contain mechanical dampening compounds?  Snake oil?  I'll leave that for others to decide but the point is that many of these manufacturers are claiming that the troubling resonances are coming from _within_.
  
  Regarding cables, as you go up the chain to the more expensive cables, it no longer becomes about metallurgy.  At some point, it typically becomes about RF shielding and vibrational dampening.  Purist Audio Design, for example, makes a $10k mains cable filled with liquid ferox designed to serve as both an RF shield and mechanical dampener.  Similarly, HFC incorporates some type of mechanical dampener in their cables, both for their power and signal cables and some of these manufacturers have suggested to me that they are trying to buffer against internal vibrations as much as they are external forces.  As for a headphone cable being microphonic, maybe @JaZZ  and I are talking about different things and maybe I am misconstruing what is happening but with the stock cable that came with my Noble Kaiser 10 IEMS and even with the Silver Dragon that I use for it now, if you tap the chord with your finger or the chord brushes up against something, like your neck, you get a clearly audible rustling or thumping noise and so the way I am interpreting this is that there is clearly an impact on the electrical signal with the transmission of vibrational energy against the cable by local forces that has nothing to do with speaker output or reflections from nearby furniture.  
  
 Regarding how vibrational control could impact the DAVE for headphone listening, my own theory (and I could be completely wrong) is that once again, it has more to do with internal or local forces rather than any blaring external forces.  To be upfront, during this recent evaluation of vibration control devices, my testing was performed almost exclusively with speakers (>99%); not because I didn't believe my findings weren't applicable to headphone listening but because in the past 6 weeks, I have done almost no headphone listening with my DAVE for various other reasons (and in a few days, I will explain those reasons).  At the same time, because my speaker listening has more recently been a _low_ volume affair, it's hard for me to imagine that these low volumes are creating any significant external sonic forces that would impact the DAVE much differently than headphone listening...but who knows?  Nonetheless, while it's easy to imagine how a thunderous subwoofer could eventually penetrate through the protective anti-resonant properties of the thick billet of aluminum that the DAVE is housed in, exactly how does this mighty fortress protect the DAVE against its own internal resonances? As I stated in my report, power supply components -- as they charge and discharge, capacitors, resistors, ICs and output devices in the signal path _all _vibrate as they pass the audio signal and while these individual vibrations may be small, because they have the ability to locally and much more directly act on the signal (similar to me lightly running my finger down my headphone cable and inducing a rustling noise), it may not take much for these internal forces to impact SQ.  This is the theory that makes the most sense to me.
  
 In my report, I mentioned that mechanical isolation boils down to the 3Ds -- *d*ampening, *d*rainage, and *d*issipation.  In my own simplistic way of thinking, it was easy to grasp the importance of first "D" but not the 2nd and 3rd "D" and yet the latter 2 "D"s may be more important, especially with headphone listening.  When you're trying to guard against external vibrations, like a car would want to do against a bumpy road, then a dampening mechanism like shock absorbers become important.  But when you're trying to free a component of the negative impact of its own vibrations, then drainage and dissipation of these vibrations become much _more_ important.  Based on my own reading, solid billets of metal are very effective drains or conduits but unless there is some way to dissipate this vibrational energy (either as heat or work) in sufficient quantities, there will be no _net_ flow of vibrational energy away from that component and this vibrational energy gets transmitted back to the component.  When we're talking about dissipation through heat, for this transfer to occur, you generally have to couple the conduit with a dissimilar substance capable of drawing or absorbing that vibrational energy away from the conduit.  And so while the DAVE's large aluminum chassis is probably serving as a very effective drain, how is the vibrational energy being dissipated?  I suppose some of this vibrational energy could be dissipated through heat exchange between the chassis and the surrounding air.  Dissipation could, in theory, also be occurring through the rubber footers beneath the DAVE.  Given the greater surface area of the Black Raviolis, these may be even more effective dissipators and indeed, as I put my finger against one of these Black Raviolis, they are quite warm.  With ball-bearing devices like Stillpoints, dissipation doesn't occur through heat as much as it does through work, usually in the form of rotation of the ball bearing(s) within.  Which is better?  My own experience has shown me that it depends.  For devices that generate large amounts of horizontal vibrational energy (like speakers, large transformers, CD players), Stillpoints are supposed to be better.  For devices where the vibrational energy is more vertical, the rubberish footers that dissipate energy through heat can be just as effective if not more so.  
  
 Again, these are just my own observations and impressions and you may disagree.  As before, does the DAVE itself greatly benefit from mechanical isolation in a headphone system?  In my system, the answer is no and so I don't think I'm disagreeing with anyone here.  But is there _zero_ benefit?  My ears don't tell me that and I feel comfortable standing alone in this claim if need be.  Once again, and this should have been my concluding statement all along, the real benefits lie not in isolating the DAVE but in the cumulative impact of mechanically isolating all parts of your audio chain and given how the DAVE combines three components in one, this need not be a difficult or necessarily expensive ask.


----------



## rkt31

I don't have Dave yet, but even if would be able to afford one, I won't be able to afford expensive cable or expensive stands. imho using a good pure copper shielded cable for interconnect and power should just be OK for Dave. if someone has extra funds , one can very well spend on those cables . imho after some level there is only slight change to the flavor of sound . for many that slight flavor change is generally good ( that can involve some psychological reasons too after spending that much cash ). for me adding few ferrite cores to power cable and digital cables has given some extremely good results at very very small costs. imho even a very good bulk power cable like furutech can also benefit with these cores. after all this there should only be a flavour change sort of thing.


----------



## jelt2359

bigfatpaulie said:


> I'm just going to go back to enjoying listening to music.
> 
> Good luck on all this, folks.




If hunting for a ps300 and being in line for a Stellaris qualifies as "just" going to go back to enjoy music, then I think we're all in the same boat


----------



## emrelights1973

romaz said:


> Right back at you, Christer.  As an owner of a Hugo and HE1000, do you believe your comments will get much sympathy from the audiophile who can barely afford more than his second-hand cassette playing Walkman and the stock headphones that came with it yet loves his music no less than you?
> 
> During a conversation with Joshua Bell late last year, he indicated to me that he recently upgraded his $4 million Gibson Stradivarius to another Stradivarius that was worth almost $15 million dollars because it sounded better and allowed him to play better.  It's unfortunate there are those who will automatically assume he did it for the sake of vanity and bragging rights and then go so far as being condescendingly critical on a public forum.



he got every right to brag, he can brag about it all day long..... because he got a very good case of being one of the very few on earth deserving a 15M violin, only a few can make it sound 15M$ and also probably is owned by someone else and given to him for playing it.... 
Being an audiophile or music lover does not require any talent... you can buy a 100,000$ stereo just to play background music for your diner parties.... 
All put aside i also admire average joe building up a good system in years with savings from many other things, becomes his joy and pride.... so let him brag as well


----------



## JaZZ

romaz said:


> Those who don't care at all about the science of sound or vibration control and would prefer to simply go back to enjoying music, feel free to completely ignore this post.




Hey Roy... now you're throwing out the baby with the bathing water. Haven't I explicitly acknowledged the merit of vibration damping? My skepticism is limited to a case like headphone listening, where external excitement is unlikely. So it is absolutely based on scientific knowledge.




romaz said:


> It would appear that for many, vibration control for headphone listening is a voodoo concept not worthy of serious discussion but, personally, I, too, like to understand how to explain certain observations that are not easily explained. I don't claim to be an expert on vibration control but I am indeed intrigued by comments Rob and other experts in the field have made as I am by my own observations that have been reproduced by others (not necessarily with the DAVE but other electronics similarly housed in heavy billets of aluminum). Personally, the idea that tidal conditions and solar magnetic fields can routinely influence SQ is a bit far fetched. Nor am I convinced that the SQ differences that are heard with devices like Stillpoints are predominantly due to external environmental forces. Based on my discussions with those more knowledgeable and experienced in this field than myself, *internal resonances produced by any and all electronic components have at least as much to do with it* (and this would include cables and speakers since they pass electricity). In other words, the enemy is _within_ and this would potentially explain how differences can be heard in a headphone system.




That's even something I've brought up myself (if you look back) and later picked up again in the context of cables. It's absolutely imaginable and passably plausible. But think about it: How much can some special feet below DAVE's housing do against vibrations within internal electronics components? I would say it's below 1% (you could possibly achieve another percent by placing a few Shakti Stones on the top). The key point isn't to prevent the transmission of the current-induced vibrations to the furniture on which the device stands – it's the suppression of the side effects in the form of expectable harmonic distortion or other forms of interference. And the most promising approach would be to suppress the vibrations at the source, hence fully encapsulating the corresponding components or the whole internal – ideally with some liquid diamond hardening after a few hours.




romaz said:


> Regarding cables, as you go up the chain to the more expensive cables, it no longer becomes about metallurgy. At some point, it typically becomes about RF shielding and vibrational dampening. Purist Audio Design, for example, makes a $10k mains cable filled with liquid ferox designed to serve as both an RF shield and mechanical dampener. Similarly, HFC incorporates some type of mechanical dampener in their cables, both for their power and signal cables and some of these manufacturers have suggested to me that they are trying to buffer against internal vibrations as much as they are external forces. As for a headphone cable being microphonic, maybe @JaZZ and I are talking about different things and maybe I am misconstruing what is happening but with the stock cable that came with my Noble Kaiser 10 IEMS and even with the Silver Dragon that I use for it now, if you tap the chord with your finger or the chord brushes up against something, like your neck, you get a clearly audible rustling or thumping noise and so the way I am interpreting this is that there is clearly an impact on the electrical signal with the transmission of vibrational energy against the cable by local forces that has nothing to do with speaker output or reflections from nearby furniture.




I'm sure we're talking of the same thing. Believe me, it's just mechanical noise transferred within the cable. You can test it yourself: Simply unplug the cable from the headphone output and try it again (that way current flow is virtually impossible).

Really, I didn't mean to put your efforts down! I appreciate you patience and honestly admire your devotion – and I still share your quest for an ultimately transparent and stress-free music reproduction. I just wanted to hold my own, tempered attitude against it, as I'm inclined to assume that you don't have the same patience and the peace of mind to fully and unrestrictedly enjoy listening to music (I'm just deducing that from myself); I even consider that a precondition for your dedication. All the more I wonder how you seem to avoid the greatest potential for sonic improvements (as I see/hear it): at the weakest link in every chain, the sound transducers. If there's one thing that's relatively easy to fix, at least to a large degree, it's the notoriously uneven amplitude response. Imagine how much transparency there's to be gained by eliminating the masking effect from the humps relative to the dips. That's what I'm effectively experiencing with my own equalizing efforts. Welcome «side-effects» are a more natural sound and a clearly improved transient response.

Apologies for the bother I may have caused (or maybe not)! 
.


----------



## ubs28

Currently listening to the Chord Dave with the HD 800. Very impressive that the Chord Dave is able to deliver a big soundstage that the Chord Hugo can only do with high-end amplifiers like the Auralic Taurus MKII. An outstanding one in all solution for headphones so far based on my first impression.

I hope I will have some new USB B cables for the Chord Dave in the weekend. The performance will probably go up then.


----------



## Arpiben

rob watts said:


> Dave, in common with all electronics, is (very slightly) microphonic. You can hear this using the AP - set it up so the -128 dB background noise from Dave is a roar from the AP loudspeaker monitor (that would be about 120 dB of gain), then tap Dave's PCB and you can hear tiny clicks through the loudspeaker. On headphones you can't hear it with the Nighthawks but you can just hear it with Noble Kaiser K10 IEM. Note if this was a valve or tube DAC or pre-amp the clicks would have been extremely audible.
> 
> So using Dave with loudspeakers one can reasonably expect it would be (slightly) sensitive to vibration - after all I can hear the effects of noise shapers at -350 dB affecting depth, so this is way bigger than that. Also I experimented a lot in the 1980's with vibration control - my turntable was in an 1 inch thick oak double glazed (with half inch thick plate glass) enclosure, and this made a huge difference to turntable sound. My electronics were on stainless steel springs and Italian slate - so I know vibration is important. That is one reason why Dave is in a solid aluminium billet, so I can control vibration. Reducing vibration gives smoother sound, with better depth.
> 
> ...



Very interesting point about wander effects in audio. Wander is the term used for low jitter frequency (f<10Hz).
There are different parameters for wander: MTIE/TDEV/...As per Rob comments, depending on time of observation,time deviation varies from ns to hundreds ns range even with atomic clocks.
Patiently awaiting Rob's return for more.
Rgds


----------



## JaZZ

ubs28 said:


> Currently listening to the Chord Dave with the HD 800. Very impressive that the Chord Dave is able to deliver a big soundstage that *the Chord Hugo can only do with high-end amplifiers like the Auralic Taurus MKII*. An outstanding one in all solution for headphones so far based on my first impression.
> 
> I hope I will have some new USB B cables for the Chord Dave in the weekend. The performance will probably go up then.




I'm curious about Rob Watts' reaction to this – hope he will chime in.  Actually he has already expressed his opinion.


----------



## ubs28

jazz said:


> I'm curious about Rob Watts' reaction to this – hope he will chime in.  Actually he has already expressed his opinion.




Well, let's not do this again. It has been discussed many times in the Chord Hugo thread and it went nowhere. I can only say that it is also highly dependant on the interconnects you use. With cheaper interconnects the soundstage is less impressive. 

Let's keep it to the Chord Dave in this thread


----------



## lovethatsound

ubs28 said:


> Currently listening to the Chord Dave with the HD 800. Very impressive that the Chord Dave is able to deliver a big soundstage that the Chord Hugo can only do with high-end amplifiers like the Auralic Taurus MKII. An outstanding one in all solution for headphones so far based on my first impression.
> 
> I hope I will have some new USB B cables for the Chord Dave in the weekend. The performance will probably go up then.


YES the hd800 sound fantastic with the Dave.ive been trying out different headphone cables out with the Dave and the hd800,and do you know what?,the hd800 stock cable sounds the best to me.At some point this year i hope to be able to home demo the focal utopia.


----------



## Kakki

rob watts said:


> Dave does indeed have a unique amplifier section - it is actually a 2nd order analogue noise shaper (a conventional amp is a first order noise shaper).
> 
> The reason I do this is two fold - firstly, whenever you load a headphone amp you get more distortion, and its audible and all amplifiers suffer from this. By using a 2nd order noise shaper approach allows me to eliminate this problem - when I load the outputs there is zero change in distortion (apart from a small increase in 2nd harmonic). This means when you load the OP, there is no change in sound quality (all other amps harden up and to mask this they add a lot of 2nd harmonic to fatten the sound up).
> 
> ...




Rob, thank you for very interesting post as always.

I often hear that "NFB is bad" and "NFB kills musicality" but your post suggests that Dave is having very very deep NFB utilizing the amazing 1GHz gain bandwidth.

I'm right now listening to my Dave ... and as many of the owners pointed out, Dave is with such a great musicality.

So I'm really wondering why some people hates NFB so much and believe that NFB kills musicality.
Really wondering why, on the other hand, your products are with great musicality when having very deep NFB.

Do you have any thought on this?


----------



## bigfatpaulie

jelt2359 said:


> If hunting for a ps300 and being in line for a Stellaris qualifies as "just" going to go back to enjoy music, then I think we're all in the same boat




I'm grateful to be in good company that understands me oh so well


----------



## ubs28

Is it possible to use the balanced outputs for headphones or is it strictly for amplifiers? (My HD 800 S has the balanced cable installed so I haven't tried it with the Chord Dave yet because I'm not sure if it's safe to do so).


----------



## EVOLVIST

ubs28 said:


> Is it possible to use the balanced outputs for headphones or is it strictly for amplifiers? (My HD 800 S has the balanced cable installed so I haven't tried it with the Chord Dave yet because I'm not sure if it's safe to do so).




No, it's not. Don't even try, per Rob Watts.


----------



## ubs28

evolvist said:


> No, it's not. Don't even try, per Rob Watts.




Ok thanks. I won't then. The HD 800 (non S version) sounds really good and well behaved with the Chord Dave anyway so I will keep using the non S version for now.


----------



## ecwl

ubs28 said:


> Ok thanks. I won't then. The HD 800 (non S version) sounds really good and well behaved with the Chord Dave anyway so I will keep using the non S version for now.




Hmmm... Can't you just unplug the regular headphone cables from the HD800 and plug them into HD800S?


----------



## romaz

jazz said:


> Hey Roy... now you're throwing out the baby with the bathing water.




Hey Jazz, this opening line was not meant for you. If you haven't noticed, the natives have grown restless with all the vibration control talk. This isn't an area I claim any expertise in but I do find the conversation stimulating and educational. I will pursue it further with you through PM.



jazz said:


> I wonder how you seem to avoid the greatest potential for sonic improvements (as I see/hear it): at the weakest link in every chain, the sound transducers. If there's one thing that's relatively easy to fix, at least to a large degree, it's the notoriously uneven amplitude response.
> .




Not trying to avoid it, just mostly ignorant of it but also not wanting to leave Roon. I will pursue this further with you in private. Thanks for bringing it up.


----------



## JaZZ

romaz said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Roy... now you're throwing out the baby with the bathing water.
> ...




I have my own limitations built in my system in that I insist in using a FiiO X5 II as transport for the DAVE, despite theoretical downsides in terms of galvanic connection. (So no need for excuses, just in case!)


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## bigfatpaulie

I think my sentiment may have been poorly conveyed. I meant nothing negative by it, and I greatly appreciate all the diligent testing and comparing done by Roy and others. 

My intention was I really like DAVE as-is and that if an improvement can be made with vibration control or otherwise I'm all in: after you've done all the hard stuff (testing and research). In the mean time I have luxury of enjoying the music. 

I meant in no way to knock or discredit what your are doing.


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## EVOLVIST

Back to the music: Day-Two with my DAVE was yesterday, and it was even more blissful than the day before.

Say, has anyone listened to the DAVE and because it's so truthful, you've been able to equally revel in a recording's imperfections just as much as you would audiophile grade tracks?

I found myself doing this last night.

I put on Neil Young's classic "Harvest" album in 24/192. It was a revelation! This is an album I have heard many times, yet now I can hear all of the flubs, a little sloppy playing, and even poor recording techniques. This doesn't mean that the album sounded bad. It just means that I can now more appreciate the musical signature of the album as a whole. Actually, that should be signatures, plural, because I was asking myself, why does the production in these couple tracks sound so different than these other tracks. Then it dawned on me! Wow, historically, and now for the first time, I can hear the difference in the studios, because the album was recorded at several different ones! I knew this, but I had never HEARD this. I can now tell which songs were recorded at a different studio, at a different time! All of these factors really heightened my joy for the album, warts and all.

I think some of these older recordings can give more of an insight into what the DAVE can actually do, besides just rendering every intrument as a clean entity in the mix. There were even times where I heard some distortion in the background harmonies, and my trained studio brain immediately thought, "Oh, they hit that too hot," meaning they pegged into the red and left it as the final take. Had they had a DAVE in 1972, they might have heard that and rerecorded it.

Anyway, I think tonight will be Springsteen's "Darkness on the Edge of Town" album. This should be fun!


----------



## ubs28

ecwl said:


> Hmmm... Can't you just unplug the regular headphone cables from the HD800 and plug them into HD800S?




I can, but I will wait with changing cables. I still have to see if the Chord Dave + Auralic Taurus MKII makes any sense. Then I'll keep using the HD 800 S balanced if it is an improvement.


----------



## Articnoise

In my many years of listening and reading about how to get the best SQ out of an audio system I have over and over heard people say or read that this or that can or can’t make any audio difference. It has been: power cables doesn’t matter or USB cables doesn’t matter or digital audio doesn’t matter because it’s only 1s and 0s and so on, the list is long. Many times those that have stated “it’s impossible” that this or that can’t affect SQ, haven’t even test it  For them it is enough that in their mind it shouldn’t make any difference, so must be snake oil or bias. Over the years the Internet knowledge on what can affect and not affect SQ have changed many times, as we constantly get better and better understanding on things like jitter, EMI, RF etc. But I would say that we still don’t know everything and absolutely not why some things can make a difference. Some things just sound better or at least different. Some people, like Rob, are obvious more knowledge about digital audio than for example I am. To me an open mind is not to believe everything everyone says, it’s to understand that we don’t know everything and therefore most test it before dismiss it. The testing by listening, even I can do, without all the theoretical knowledge. Well if I had a DAVE to test it on will say 

I don’t know if this is related but… many power conditioners are filtering by using resonation between capacitance and inductance. 

And audio hum is often a mains power thing. The hum noise can be mechanical caused by for example the transformers that start to vibrate at 50/60 Hz. Normally this sort of hum can be heard from the gear itself and not thru the audio signal to your headphones. With ground-loop hum you can usually hear the hum coming from your headphones. With a 350 dBs noise floor even the smallest hum, ground-loop hum or vibration may be audible under the right circumstances. I wouldn’t roll micro vibrations out before testing it truly.


----------



## Beolab

evolvist said:


> Back to the music: Day-Two with my DAVE was yesterday, and it was even more blissful than the day before.
> 
> Say, has anyone listened to the DAVE and because it's so truthful, you've been able to equal revel in a recording's imperfections just as much as you would audiophile grade tracks?
> 
> ...


 

 Yes the recordings are to poor for DAVE, is what i have said many times before, i hear also every fault / colorisation / distortion in the recording, and struggle to really find a perfect one, so we have to wait until Davina will be released.


----------



## rkt31

chord dacs are so transparent that they can easily uncover the flaws/limitations of recordings. now when I listen to some of the chesky recordings, I feel that chesky recordings lack microdynamics. it's like the peaks are tiny bit of stunted or artificially lack the bite. somewhere I read that chesky use tube preamp in the recording process. so the lack of microdynamics or lack of bite is due to that ? while info rate chesky content and recording very highly I still feel some offerings of opus 3 records and waterlily acoustics sound more transparent.


----------



## rkt31

chord dacs are so transparent that they can easily uncover the flaws/limitations of recordings. now when I listen to some of the chesky recordings, I feel that chesky recordings lack microdynamics. it's like the peaks are tiny bit of stunted or artificially lack the bite. somewhere I read that chesky use tube preamp in the recording process. so the lack of microdynamics or lack of bite is due to that ? while i rate chesky content and recording very highly, I still feel some offerings of opus 3 records and waterlily acoustics sound more transparent.


----------



## EVOLVIST

beolab said:


> Yes the recordings are to poor for DAVE, is what i have said many times before, i hear also every fault / colorisation / distortion in the recording, and struggle to really find a perfect one, so we have to wait until Davina will be released.




Yeah, but what I'm saying is, I LIKE to hear all of the odd things in a recording just as much as I like to listen to a perfectly recorded product, like my 1966 "Der Entführung aus dem Serail", with Josef Krips conducting this wonderful Mozart opera. 

I put on Prince's song "Controvery" and I heard this digital glitch in one of the keyboard layers. Priceless! At the same time, I heard with ultimate clarity his "umph" background vocals that accents the beat on the one.

This stuff amazes me, but maybe because in the process of enjoying the music I'm also coming from a deep background as a session musician, having spent a lot of time in recording studios.

And that's my fear with the Davina, that only 15-20% of music recorded today will benefit from its attributes, because by the time it gets to the mastering houses the music will pour out like mud.


----------



## Beolab

evolvist said:


> Yeah, but what I'm saying is, I LIKE to hear all of the odd things in a recording just as much as I like to listen to a perfectly recorded product, like my 1966 "Der Entführung aus dem Serail", with Josef Krips conducting this wonderful Mozart opera.
> 
> I put on Prince's song "Controvery" and I heard this digital glitch in one of the keyboard layers. Priceless! At the same time, I heard with ultimate clarity his "umph" background vocals that accents the beat on the one.
> 
> ...


 

 I'm all in with what you are meaning.
  
 Yes that is very sad with the Loudness DR gain obsession war, that all recordings almost from 1992 until today are burst to max gain without the great DR that is required to maintain the very best dynamics and life to the music.
  
 It should be a penalty up to 3 month in prison if someone higher the gain to the max , that almost every commercial studio does in the final mastering!


----------



## ecwl

evolvist said:


> Say, has anyone listened to the DAVE and because it's so truthful, you've been able to equal revel in a recording's imperfections just as much as you would audiophile grade tracks?


 
 I feel the same way about DAVE. I think the reason is that the instruments and vocals are so real because of the accurate timing of the transients and timbre. So even though the recordings are old and have lots of imperfections, the instruments and vocals sound real, albeit limited by old recording technologic limitations like tapes and older microphones.


----------



## Christer

evolvist said:


> Yeah, but what I'm saying is, I LIKE to hear all of the odd things in a recording just as much as I like to listen to a perfectly recorded product, like my 1966 "Der Entführung aus dem Serail", with Josef Krips conducting this wonderful Mozart opera.
> 
> I put on Prince's song "Controvery" and I heard this digital glitch in one of the keyboard layers. Priceless! At the same time, I heard with ultimate clarity his "umph" background vocals that accents the beat on the one.
> 
> ...


 

 I assume you mean the EMI/Krips /VPO Gedda/Rothenberger etc, Die Entführung aus dem Serail?
 One of my favourite Opera recordings. My LPs are getting  a bit worn from all the times I have played that wonderful recording of one of the funniest and best of Operas.
 The first really great operatic masterpiece from a  young musical  genius.
 Like the Karajan Ring I mentioned  in an earlier post the often more simply and naturally mic´d recordings from the 60s, are actually recordings that benefit from Chord DACs, sometimes more than some modern overly multi and spotmic´d recordings made with 30 -40 mics to  be on the safe side. Recordings which  have a tendency to sound worse the higher the resolution of the DAC and reproduction system.
 In those days recording engineers had both the time and the expertize to put a few good mics in the right places,set levels, and  then let the conductor decide the balance.
 I haven´t  seen the Krips " Die Entführung aus dem Serail" as hi res download .But another  Mozart Opera gem from the analogue era has just arrived as 24/96 download from DGG . Böhm´s  classic recording of Die Zauberflöte.
 It  still sounds very good on LP but I am pretty sure the digital re-master just like the Karajan Ring, will reveal even more of the beauty of that classic Opera recording.
 Like Wagner´s Ring it is also full of timbral beauty,fantastic singing and lots of depth and air and bloom and coherence, too often missing from many modern digital, "throw all the  mics you´ve got at the orchestra", recordings.
 Mozart´s  masterpiece Figaro is already available in several  digitally recorded versions and one to avoid is the terribly close an spot-mic´d Sony recording by Currentzis.
 Via DAVE it sounded absolutely horrible, and almost as bad via Hugo.
 One of  the expensive hi res downloads I regret buying.
 I am keeping my fingers crossed that before long Böhm´s classic mid 60s DGG Figaro recording will become available too.


----------



## EVOLVIST

christer said:


> I assume you mean the EMI/Krips /VPO Gedda/Rothenberger etc, Die Entführung aus dem Serail?
> One of my favourite Opera recordings. My LPs are getting  a bit worn from all the times I have played that wonderful recording of one of the funniest and best of Operas.
> The first really great operatic masterpiece from a  young musical  genius.
> Like the Karajan Ring I mentioned  in an earlier post the often more simply and naturally mic´d recordings from the 60s, are actually recordings that benefit from Chord DACs, sometimes more than some modern overly multi and spotmic´d recordings made with 30 -40 mics to  be on the safe side. Recordings which  have a tendency to sound worse the higher the resolution of the DAC and reproduction system.
> ...


 
  
 Yes, sir, that's the very same recording with Gedda & Rothenberger of Die Entführung...Gottlob Frick was still amazing, even for a man of 60 at the time of this recording. Frick was the quintessential Osmin. In fact, he's probably my favorite bass.
  
 Are we talking about the Böhm Figaro from 1968 w/ Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau & Edith Mathis? This one is on CD; I believe I have it burned to Flac, or am I missing an earlier recording?
  
 I'm currently trying to round out my Debussy collection with all of the best recordings, but it's proving to be a difficult task. Any suggestions? I'm also trying to round out my Biber and Fux recordings. The DAVE has given me a new impetus.
  
 That Frick, Die Entführung, though, is just amazing on my DAVE, as I'm sure it is if you've heard it on your Mojo.


----------



## paulkwan

Hi all,
  
 I'm suffer from random playback problem, where the sound playback will randomly become either 1. high freq noise only, or 2. highly distort music.
  
 It happens randomly when playback switch to a hd sample rate media, either 24/96 or DSF etc, if switch from a hd media to 44.1k sample rate media, it will not occur, seems there is communication error when switching sample rate. I can fix the noise by select "next" on my iPad Roon app to skip to next song until a different sample rate file is play, then the playback will resume normal.  If next song is of the same sample rate, I need to skip again until a diff sample rate file is play.
  
 In scenario 1 (only high freq noise is play), the panel on DAVE keep on switching, I record a video here :
 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17490273/switch%20to%20HD%20media%20plaback%20with%20noise%20only.mp4
  
 Here is video of scenario 2, highly distort music is playback
 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17490273/switch%20to%20HD%20file%20play%20with%20distored%20sound.mp4
  
 My system is :
  
 Roon server on Synology NAS -> LAN -> switch -> mR -> DAVE
  
 I've try swapping USB cable for mR -> DAVE, between Curious Cables USB / AQ Diamond USB, remove the Jitterbug there, both not help.
  
 mR firmware was update from v2.2 to latest v2.3 and does not help, and it was powered by SBooster LPS.
  
 At the mR admin page, the "DAC Diagnostics" shows the sample rate which match the media file I'm playing. DoP support is selected and Roon shows no sample rate conversion whatever media I play.
  
 Here is the "DAC Diagnostics" when scenario 1 (only high freq noise is play) happens, a DSD64 dsf file is playing with high freq noise only, on DAVE the sample rate panel is switching between DSD64 & 176k quickly, as in the first video above.
  
 access: RW_INTERLEAVED
 format: S32_LE
 subformat: STD
 channels: 2
 rate: 176400 (176400/1)
 period_size: 8820
 buffer_size: 17640
  
 This problem does not happen with my previous DAC with the same chain, and was not observed in my first week with DAVE.
  
 Any idea ?  
  
 As I'm not sure the cause is at mR / Roon / DAVE yet, so I post here to get some direction first, may escalate to related support forum later.
  
 I have my previous Intel NUC + LPS + Win10 machine around, will try to setup to replace mR to see if it helps.  As I saw someone mention the Chord Windows ASIO driver for DAVE is quite nice.
  
 Thanks
 Paul


----------



## EVOLVIST

Day-Three with DAVE: The Ugly Truth.

I put on Springsteen's "Darkness on the Edge of Town" recording, and though the DAVE could seperate and translate the intruments nicely, the DAVE also demonstrated what a deal mix it is. I never realized that there were all of these conflicts in tones/frequencies for this album. I knew, historically, that Bruce ended up liking the more in-your-face mix that a guest engineer brought to the table, but under the microscope the album works as a soundscape, but not even close as a transparent mix, unlike yesterday's Neil Young offering. 

Now, it didn't ruin the music for me; still, I can't unhear that mess of a mix. 

I'm really glad that I got the DAVE. It certainly exposes the weak sisters, while letting the good mixed shine.


----------



## Rob Watts

kakki said:


> Rob, thank you for very interesting post as always.
> 
> I often hear that "NFB is bad" and "NFB kills musicality" but your post suggests that Dave is having very very deep NFB utilizing the amazing 1GHz gain bandwidth.
> 
> ...


 
 Negative feedback (NFB) - that's a big can of worms. After all, every audiophile knows feedback is evil, and you must have no global feedback.
  
 Which is of course nonsense. All you are doing is reducing global feedback with more local feedback. So how did the low NFB being good myth come about?
  
 Well firstly we have to be careful - some people like the sound of distortion - particularly if you are creating oodles of 2nd. So a report of NFB being bad may be down to a preference to higher distortion. But lets ignore that particular issue, and run through a thought experiment.
  
 Now let us imagine you want to design an amplifier to drive a headphone or loudspeaker. And to eliminate the possibility of people liking distortion, lets assume that you have a target of 0.01% THD, that you design two amps, one low NFB, one high NFB, but both must measure with about 0.01%.
  
 So you have a high NFB (normal) design, and to make it low NFB you use more local feedback - say in the case of bipolar use more emitter degeneration. And because there is less NFB, you can increase the open loop frequency response. But you find it will not meet the 0.01% THD, as the major source of distortion is the OP stage and there is not enough NFB to correct the OP stage - so you improve that open loop performance by either more local feedback around the OP stage, or increasing the bias current.
  
 So now we have two amps, both measuring about the same, and I can say that for sure the low NFB amp will sound a lot smoother and more refined. So that means that low NFB must be better, surely?
  
 No it doesn't.
  
 Let's look at what you have done to make it low feedback.
  
 1. Local feedback by using emitter degeneration. This makes it more linear, but also more linear at RF frequencies - and that will reduce noise floor modulation - and that will make it sound smoother.
  
 2. Increasing bias current in the OP stage - this will reduce the HF distortion, as the annoying thing about crossover distortion is it sounds very hard due the very high frequency harmonics - indeed, Class B operation has distortion extending to infinite frequencies. So increasing bias will also make it smoother.
  
 3. Increasing the open loop FR - this will mean that there is now more feedback available at high frequencies - and this too will make it smoother as HF distortion will be lower.
  
 Now the issue of noise floor modulation I have talked about a lot. But high frequency distortion is also very important - indeed I always measure up to 2 MHz looking for distortion, as distortion at very high frequencies is audible. By that I mean whenever I have reduced distortion at say 100 kHz it sounds smoother. Which is crazy - how can distortion at 100 kHz be audible? Well it depends upon how that distortion is there, and some very high frequency distortion acts via changing the delay - so the delay then changes with signal level, and you can only measure this by looking way out of band. But the delay change with signal is highly audible, (it again sounds smoother by eliminating it) and its audible because it is modulating the timing of transients - not because you can hear distortion at 100 kHz.
  
 So NFB is categorically not a problem at all, but like most things in audio, is actually very complex. People would be better off talking about minimising distortion, noise floor modulation, and HF and RF distortion. But that doesn't make for a snappy line on a sales sheet.
  
 Rob


----------



## miketlse

paulkwan said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm suffer from random playback problem, where the sound playback will randomly become either 1. high freq noise only, or 2. highly distort music.
> 
> ...


 
  
 This type of behaviour also happens with the Mojo  and other dacs - the designers either allow the dac to play a short burst of the music with unknown new bitrate (ie the burst of distortion), or mute the sound output of the dac, until the dac has identified what the correct sampling rate is.
  
 You may find something interesting in post #3 of the mojo thread, in the subsection about *setting up foobar/jriver if you are losing a second fo each track.*
http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post#


----------



## ubs28

My girlfriend asked what did I get and that it looked like a controller for some kind of spaceship. But it looked nice anyway according to her 

I have to admit, the design of the Chord Dave looks quite futuristic.


----------



## x RELIC x

ubs28 said:


> My girlfriend asked what did I get and that it looked like a controller for some kind of spaceship. But it looked nice anyway according to her
> 
> I have to admit, the design of the Chord Dave looks quite futuristic.




I agree wholeheartedly. There is a lot of love/hate around the DAVE design, but I think it's brilliant!


----------



## Beolab

x relic x said:


> I agree wholeheartedly. There is a lot of love/hate around the DAVE design, but I think it's brilliant!




DAVE in black can be the most futuristic design i have ever seen on a DAC. 

The LHLabs Vi DAC are in second place because of it size.


----------



## Kakki

rob watts said:


> Negative feedback (NFB) - that's a big can of worms. After all, every audiophile knows feedback is evil, and you must have no global feedback.
> 
> Which is of course nonsense. All you are doing is reducing global feedback with more local feedback. So how did the low NFB being good myth come about?
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you Rob for your explanation. So it is not that NFB is bad or evil... the critical thing is how you utilize it and what you target to achieve by using it.
  
 Relieved to know that it is not a big can of evil worms!


----------



## paulkwan

miketlse said:


> This type of behaviour also happens with the Mojo  and other dacs - the designers either allow the dac to play a short burst of the music with unknown new bitrate (ie the burst of distortion), or mute the sound output of the dac, until the dac has identified what the correct sampling rate is.
> 
> You may find something interesting in post #3 of the mojo thread, in the subsection about *setting up foobar/jriver if you are losing a second fo each track.*
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post#


 
  
 Thx for the info.
  
 Just to clarify my case is the noise or distorted music will continue to play, I've observe nearly 1 min before I stop it, so I suppose it will play until at least for the period of the whole song.


----------



## paulkwan

paulkwan said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm suffer from random playback problem, where the sound playback will randomly become either 1. high freq noise only, or 2. highly distort music.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The "Resync Delay" in my Roon was 0ms default at the beginning, after this problem happens, I've try to increase it to 50ms, then 100ms, and it still the same.


----------



## miketlse

paulkwan said:


> Thx for the info.
> 
> Just to clarify my case is the noise or distorted music will continue to play, I've observe nearly 1 min before I stop it, so I suppose it will play until at least for the period of the whole song.


 
  
 Normally the noise continues for about half a second until, the dac can identify the correct bitrate of the new music file, and then start to use the correct algorithms.
 Your noise is always starting at the start of a new track - this is different to the short bursts of noise caused by problems with the music source (eg phone) when the phone delays the usb feed for a short time, until the CPU/memory if free again. Here the dac experiences a period on no input data, so can just output noise.
  
 Yours is the first case that I have heard of the noise lasting for nearly a minute (and possibly a whole song), so it will be interesting for many users to discover the issue/cure. My instinct is that it must be one of the settings on your music player software, or the DAVE. I do not have a DAVE, but maybe one of the DAVE owners can suggest if any of the settings are relevant, and can be changed.


----------



## tunes

What is the best price/performance USB cable to get for the DAVE? I have an Aurender music server that does not have an optical out unfortunately. Has anyone found that there is any significant real difference across all recordings and headphones using different cables?


----------



## tunes

On another note, would a relatively modest USB cable be better if I added one of the devices listed below instead of hundreds of dollars on a fancy USB cable?? Any thoughts on real differences?

PS Audio Lannrover, UpTone's USB Regen or AudioQuest's JitterBug


----------



## pkcpga

tunes said:


> On another note, would a relatively modest USB cable be better if I added one of the devices listed below instead of hundreds of dollars on a fancy USB cable?? Any thoughts on real differences?
> 
> PS Audio Lannrover, UpTone's USB Regen or AudioQuest's JitterBug




I be careful with the jitterbug I found it veils the music. I use nordost cables and love them but they are 3 or 4 times more expensive than AQ cables.


----------



## rkt31

I am no expert but as far as I know jitterbug only removes the noise of USB power and it does not reclock the data. also USB transfer be it with or without jitterbug involves data packet transfer without losing any data and as per the clock of dave. so may be that veiling is actually the removal of noise. I used jitterbug with both mojo and hugo and for me jitterbug did make the difference worth much more than it's price.


----------



## EVOLVIST

tunes said:


> On another note, would a relatively modest USB cable be better if I added one of the devices listed below instead of hundreds of dollars on a fancy USB cable?? Any thoughts on real differences?
> 
> PS Audio Lannrover, UpTone's USB Regen or AudioQuest's JitterBug




https://www.tripplite.com/usb-2.0-high-speed-a-b-cable-ferrite-chokes-male-6-ft~U023006/ 

Meets or Exceeds USB 2.0 Specifications
Supports faster data transfer rate (1.5 to 480 Mbps) for low speed and high speed devices, including multimedia applications
Premium double-shielded cables with tinned copper braid and aluminum mylar foil and Ferrite chokes, feature twisted 28AWG data lines, and 24AWG power lines.
Gold plated connectors provide superior conductivity


----------



## miketlse

rkt31 said:


> I am no expert but as far as I know jitterbug only removes the noise of USB power and it does not reclock the data. also USB transfer be it with or without jitterbug involves data packet transfer without losing any data and as per the clock of dave. so may be that veiling is actually the removal of noise. I used jitterbug with both mojo and hugo and for me jitterbug did make the difference worth much more than it's price.


 
  
 Yes, I think rob watts has stated that all chord dacs reclock the data, so are immune from jitter.
  
 Instead the (badly named?) jitterbug cleans the usb power bus - i think someone stated that the jitterbug packaging makes no reference to reducing jitter.
  
 Overall rob watts concluded that if you are happy to spend £8k on a dac, then spending a further £40 on a jitterbug, to possibly obtain a slight improvement in the sound that you hear, represents a cost-effective investment.


----------



## yellowblue

paulkwan said:


> Thx for the info.
> 
> Just to clarify my case is the noise or distorted music will continue to play, I've observe nearly 1 min before I stop it, so I suppose it will play until at least for the period of the whole song.


 
 I have the same problems as paulkwan with Roon over MRendu. But it only happens when I turn on the Dave and I am listening to music which has a different sample rate than the music I listened to before I turned off the Dave. No big deal though. Just turning off and on the Dave until the distortion has gone.


----------



## tunes

"Yes, I think rob watts has stated that all chord dacs reclock the data, so are immune from jitter.

Instead the (badly named?) jitterbug cleans the usb power bus - i think someone stated that the jitterbug packaging makes no reference to reducing jitter.

Overall rob watts concluded that if you are happy to spend £8k on a dac, then spending a further £40 on a jitterbug, to possibly obtain a slight improvement in the sound that you hear, represents a cost-effective investment"

So are you being facetious or do you really think that little device will change anything or for that matter an expensive USB cable?

Seems hard to believe there is a difference in USB cables ranging in price from $3 to $300


----------



## miketlse

tunes said:


> "Yes, I think rob watts has stated that all chord dacs reclock the data, so are immune from jitter.
> 
> Instead the (badly named?) jitterbug cleans the usb power bus - i think someone stated that the jitterbug packaging makes no reference to reducing jitter.
> 
> ...


 
  
 No I was not being facetious. I will present the evidence upon which my comments were based.
  
  
 Jitterbug name - http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3450#post_12685942
  
 Rob Watts findings - http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3435#post_12681548
  
 his post contains the following comments:
  
 "So adding the Audioquest Jitter Bug did indeed improve SQ - it was fairly easy to hear it"
 "Use the jitter bug for mains powered USB sources - it is worth the small cost"
  
 So if you challenge me by asking "do you really think that little device will change anything", my response is that Rob Watts thinks it does, and his opinion Top Trumps both our opinions.


----------



## ubs28

The Chord Dave + Taurus MKII + HD 800 S (balanced) is quite stunning. Now I truly hear what the HD 800 S is capable off and I'm a happy man. The Chord Hugo was really the weakest link in my setup. It sounds as if the Chord Hugo is digital as if there are digital artifects in the sound while the Chord Dave sounds more "analog"? 
  
 Great work Rob / Chord Electronics. Excellent DAC and highly recommended.


----------



## Christer

evolvist said:


> Yes, sir, that's the very same recording with Gedda & Rothenberger of Die Entführung...Gottlob Frick was still amazing, even for a man of 60 at the time of this recording. Frick was the quintessential Osmin. In fact, he's probably my favorite bass.
> 
> Are we talking about the Böhm Figaro from 1968 w/ Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau & Edith Mathis? This one is on CD; I believe I have it burned to Flac, or am I missing an earlier recording?
> 
> ...


 

  Yes I was  talking about the Fischer Dieskau &Mathis DGG recording. But I have both that one and   Die Entführung as LPs,not cd.
 I  bought very few cds.
 Luckily more and more classic recordings are appearing as 24/96 downloads and unlike the cd versions they actually have a potential to sound even better than the original LP releases.
 The same goes for most of my Debussy recordings. They are on LPs and range from  Munch and Karajan to Abbado´s BSO double LP set.
  But there is quite a good recent Debussy album from Chandos available  both as hi res download  and on SACD I believe.
 Deneuve conducting the Scottish  National  Orchestra in in Images,Iberia and more.
 Chandos also has a good set of Debussy´s complete piano music as downloads.
 PS Enjoy your DAVE.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

ubs28 said:


> The Chord Dave + Taurus MKII + HD 800 S (balanced) is quite stunning. Now I truly hear what the HD 800 S is capable off and I'm a happy man. The Chord Hugo was really the weakest link in my setup. It sounds as if the Chord Hugo is digital as if there are digital artifects in the sound while the Chord Dave sounds more "analog"?
> 
> Great work Rob / Chord Electronics. Excellent DAC and highly recommended.


 
  
  
 How does the Chord Dave + Taurus MKII + HD 800 S fair vs Chord Dave + HD 800 S (No Taurus)?
  
 What do you see the Taurus adding?


----------



## paulkwan

I just connect my NAS to DAVE by USB directly with a 2m no name computer USB cable, the Roon - DAVE playback works flawlessly, and SQ is surprisely very good !


----------



## ubs28

bigfatpaulie said:


> How does the Chord Dave + Taurus MKII + HD 800 S fair vs Chord Dave + HD 800 S (No Taurus)?
> 
> What do you see the Taurus adding?


 

 I have the balanced cables on the HD 800 S so I haven't tried it on the Chord Dave directly. But based on the HD 800 (non S version) they sound the same. There is only a very small difference in soundstage, but it's not worth paying $2000+ on an amplifier with high-end interconnects to get this slightly bigger soundstage. The Chord Dave has a very good amplifier on board. 
  
 Best stick with the Chord Dave standalone.


----------



## maxh22

ubs28 said:


> The Chord Dave + Taurus MKII + HD 800 S (balanced) is quite stunning. Now I truly hear what the HD 800 S is capable off and I'm a happy man. The Chord Hugo was really the weakest link in my setup. It sounds as if the Chord Hugo is digital as if there are digital artifects in the sound while the Chord Dave sounds more "analog"?
> 
> Great work Rob / Chord Electronics. Excellent DAC and highly recommended.


 
 Does the Chord Mojo + Taurus sound less digital compared to Hugo? 
  
 I'm thinking that the Taurus might be a somewhat bright amp and paring it with the Hugo highlights that even more.
  
 I heard the Vega and Taurus stack at an audioshow and It sounded extremely detailed but also very digital when directly compared against the Hugo they had a couple rooms down.


----------



## ubs28

maxh22 said:


> Does the Chord Mojo + Taurus sound less digital compared to Hugo?
> 
> I'm thinking that the Taurus might be a somewhat bright amp and paring it with the Hugo highlights that even more.
> 
> I heard the Vega and Taurus stack at an audioshow and It sounded extremely detailed but also very digital when directly compared against the Hugo they had a couple rooms down.


 
  
 The Taurus MKII isn't a bright amplifier, it's a transparent neutral amplifier which pairs very well with the Chord Hugo. I can't test the Mojo because I don't have high-end interconnects for it (It won't make the comparison fair).  
  
 I also heard the Vega and I was quite happy what I was hearing from the Chord Hugo considering it was so much cheaper. But the Chord Dave is a different animal.


----------



## maxh22

ubs28 said:


> The Taurus MKII isn't a bright amplifier, it's a transparent neutral amplifier which pairs very well with the Chord Hugo. I can't test the Mojo because I don't have high-end interconnects for it (It won't make the comparison fair).
> 
> I also heard the Vega and I was quite happy what I was hearing from the Chord Hugo considering it was so much cheaper. But the Chord Dave is a different animal.


 
 Thanks for clarification! I had a very limited time with the Taurus but I did hear the Vega paired with Liquid Gold and the sound was much smoother than the Taurus which led me to believe it sounded on the bright side. I actually first tested Mojo out with Mediabridge interconnects, they only retail for $10 but they did not dissapoint at all! More so for the price. 
  
 https://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-3-5mm-Male-2-Male-Adapter/dp/B004YEBK66/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1473612627&sr=8-1&keywords=mediabridge+3.5+to+rca
  
 Then I tested it out with the Audioquest Cinnamon and found even greater transparency and musicality . But If your interconnects are similar to the mediabridge it should still sound very good!


----------



## tunes

Well then I am a believer!!


----------



## esimms86

maxh22 said:


> Does the Chord Mojo + Taurus sound less digital compared to Hugo?
> 
> I'm thinking that the Taurus might be a somewhat bright amp and paring it with the Hugo highlights that even more.
> 
> I heard the Vega and Taurus stack at an audioshow and It sounded extremely detailed but also very digital when directly compared against the Hugo they had a couple rooms down.


 

 I have no listening experience with the Taurus but I do know that it was tuned based on the sound of Rupert Neve recording consoles.
  
 Esau


----------



## ubs28

esimms86 said:


> I have no listening experience with the Taurus but I do know that it was tuned based on the sound of Rupert Neve recording consoles.
> 
> Esau


 

 Yes, the Taurus MKII is modelled based on a very expensive Neve mixing console which goes for $200.000 depending on the condition. Neve is pretty big in studio's even in 2016.


----------



## ubs28

maxh22 said:


> Thanks for clarification! I had a very limited time with the Taurus but I did hear the Vega paired with Liquid Gold and the sound was much smoother than the Taurus which led me to believe it sounded on the bright side. I actually first tested Mojo out with Mediabridge interconnects, they only retail for $10 but they did not dissapoint at all! More so for the price.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-3-5mm-Male-2-Male-Adapter/dp/B004YEBK66/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1473612627&sr=8-1&keywords=mediabridge+3.5+to+rca
> 
> Then I tested it out with the Audioquest Cinnamon and found even greater transparency and musicality . But If your interconnects are similar to the mediabridge it should still sound very good!


 

 Well, my interconnects are like $4000 which are also being used in high-end speaker setups. It could be that the Taurus MKII sounds bright next to other amplifiers. But based on what I'm hearing from the Chord Hugo and Chord Dave standalone, I don't hear added brightness. 
  
 But with the Chord Dave, the Taurus MKII is overkill to be honest. It's only a very small difference which means I might get rid of it and use that money to buy an other interesting headphone (like the Utopia perhaps?).


----------



## x RELIC x

ubs28 said:


> I have the balanced cables on the HD 800 S so I haven't tried it on the Chord Dave directly. But based on the HD 800 (non S version) they sound the same. There is only a very small difference in soundstage, but it's not worth paying $2000+ on an amplifier with high-end interconnects to get this slightly bigger soundstage. *The Chord Dave has a very good amplifier on board. *
> 
> Best stick with the Chord Dave standalone.




Not entirely accurate. 

More like the DAVE is very transparent to the DAC because there is no separate amplifier on board.


----------



## Deftone

jelt2359 said:


> I've been thinking about this for a while. What makes a hair cut with a famous stylist worth so much more than one at the corner? Surely it isn't the cost of the pair of scissors? What makes a building designed by Zaha Hadid so much more desirable than the one designed by your uncle's friend? Surely it isn't the cost of the building materials. What makes a leather bag by Hermes cost so much more than a DIY one? Again, it definitely isn't the cost of leather- no leather is worth so much. Finally, what makes some random paint splashing by Jackson Pollock more expensive than some random paint splashed by those kids in school? I betcha it isn't the quality of the paint.
> 
> In all these cases you're paying for expertise. You're paying for the design. You're paying a premium for the guy who him and only him, could come up with all this by himself. It's easy to spot these guys. They're the ones who don't copy anyone else, who like to run at the forefront and at the cutting edge. They're the ones that never play it safe, and instead seek out things that nobody else is doing.
> 
> ...


----------



## JaZZ

ecwl said:


> If you get to hear the DAVE again, you may want to try listening to Thriller with the HF filter turned off. I think almost every DAVE owner (except one I believe on this forum) prefers the HF filter turned on and I think Rob Watts said he originally designed it for playing back hi-res files and then he found it sounded smoother and darker and better with the HF filter turned on too with CD quality files. But you may like the sounds better with it turned off.


 
  
 The one exception was probably me. In the meantime I've had it constantly turned on, but out of curiosity I was just switching it off. And indeed, I like it better that way. The sound becomes more open and airy – and musical –, without any added harshness. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 One of the few things I seem to disagree with Rob.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Day 5 or 6 with DAVE...I won't post every day, but Jesus this DAC is BRIGHT! And I'm not saying really in a good way, either. While it's true that clarity, timbre of instruments, depth and width are in a league of their own with the DAVE, this doesn't sound like the same DAC that I auditioned, twice in two different places. Both times that I auditioned the DAVE I thought it sounded very neutral with my HD800s, not dark or bright, now the brightness is killing me. This is on everything from hifi to lo-fi recordings.

Okay, so I'm thinking something must be amiss in my chain, yeah?

One of my favorite audition songs is Elvis' "Fever," with its excellent recorded vocals at RCA's Studio B in Nashville. I found that with the iFi iUSB 3.0 in the chain, using the Gemini cable, that with an A/B comparison, if it in and out of the chain, much to my surpise the iUSB 3.0 laid a fine unnatural grain atop the vocals. With the USB cord that came with the DAVE, the vocals were smooth and natural. Things were still in the bright side, though. 

Could it be my computer? I've often wondered about differences in transports. I've always kept the audio path as simple as I can make it. 

Time for some more experimenting I guess.


----------



## theveterans

DAVE just outputs audio in Veritas Extreme so if the source is bright DAVE won't mask it or if the source is mellow, DAVE will sound mellow. As always, badly mastered in bad audio out.


----------



## x RELIC x

evolvist said:


> Day 5 or 6 with DAVE...I won't post every day, but Jesus this DAC is BRIGHT! And I'm not saying really in a good way, either. While it's true that clarity, timbre of instruments, depth and width are in a league of their own with the DAVE, this doesn't sound like the same DAC that I auditioned, twice in two different places. Both times that I auditioned the DAVE I thought it sounded very neutral with my HD800s, not dark or bright, now the brightness is killing me. This is on everything from hifi to lo-fi recordings.
> 
> Okay, so I'm thinking something must be amiss in my chain, yeah?
> 
> One of my favorite audition songs is Elvis' "Fever," with its excellent recorded vocals at RCA's Studio B in Nashville.




Strange. I was recently going to comment on how 'un-bright' the DAVE is, just smooth and _very_ detailed. This from the DAVE's headphone out to the Utopia or the ETHER Flow.

Edit: One thing I find is that the DAVE really does show the emphasis between different recordings and levels. If the song is flat or bright then that's what you'll hear. If the song is deep or phat that's what you get. If the room is large with a lot of reverberation that's what you hear.


----------



## EVOLVIST

theveterans said:


> DAVE just outputs audio in Veritas Extreme so if the source is bright DAVE won't mask it or if the source is mellow, DAVE will sound mellow. As always, badly mastered in bad audio out.




Mmmm...yes! That's why I bought the DAVE, but even my extremely well recorded and master recordings have that same tinge of brightness. I mean, even the ghastly recordings by Patricia Barber, which all vendors wheel out to the hifi shows sounds bright.


----------



## JaZZ

evolvist said:


> Day 5 or 6 with DAVE...I won't post every day, but Jesus this DAC is BRIGHT! And I'm not saying really in a good way, either. While it's true that clarity, timbre of instruments, depth and width are in a league of their own with the DAVE, this doesn't sound like the same DAC that I auditioned, twice in two different places. Both times that I auditioned the DAVE I thought it sounded very neutral with my HD800s, not dark or bright, now the brightness is killing me. This is on everything from hifi to lo-fi recordings.
> 
> Okay, so I'm thinking something must be amiss in my chain, yeah?
> 
> ...


 
  
 I never found the DAVE to sound bright – if there's a deviation from neutral, then rather very slightly dark. Your finding is a surprise to me. Maybe you have a bad day or a bright day? Or could it be that you're using a bright headphone? Such as the HD 800? Maybe time for a damping mod. And/or a new (copper) cable. Since a few days a have a Black Dragon attached to my pair, and I like it – smoother than the stock cable (which isn't bad per se, just a tad sharp).


----------



## Jawed

Wouldn't an optical connection at the very least eliminate the question of USB quality or the question of RFI making music sound bright/harsh? It seems like an optical connection would be a good sanity check for your system's overall balance if you don't "trust" your USB/source configuration.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Very good points, @JaZZ and @Jawed. 

Well, my first sanity check was to unplug the USB from my "audiophile" computer and plug straight in to a Windows 10 laptop, just JRiver and the Chord ASIO drivers. 

The result? Less friggin' brightness! I went back and forth just to make sure, because I had no reason to believe that the laptop would sound better, other than I had done previous DAVE auditions on my son's laptop, with my own tracks. This is different laptop, though (wow, I can't believe how many computers I have in my house).

Less brightness, yes. It sounded quite good, actually, yet I get this feeling that I'm not pulling what I can out of the DAVE. Also, What...I have a $1600 tricked out machine for audio and I'm getting a bright signal from it via USB?

Heh. I even plugged my DAVE right into the wall socket, bypassing my AC regenerator. Yeah, that sounded like poo. I tried my Beyer DT770s, and wow, they sucked more than I remembered. 

I mean, gang, is this telling you what it's telling me, that somehow it's my damn machine? 

I hate to be rash, but the first thing that popped into my head is to sell it to some gamer, take the money and put it into a Sonore system, which seems to be all the rage. But even my iUSB 3.0 let me down, which is strange as hell.


----------



## x RELIC x

evolvist said:


> Very good points, @JaZZ and @Jawed.
> 
> Well, my first sanity check was to unplug the USB from my "audiophile" computer and plug straight in to a Windows 10 laptop, just JRiver and the Chord ASIO drivers.
> 
> ...




You bring some interesting evidence that suggests Rob's observations of RF noise causing brightness and a certain 'hardness' to audio. Strange given that the USB input on the DAVE is galvanically isolated, but like he has said, RF noise is like a hard to defeat fungus (I'm paraphrasing). I'm not surprised in the least that the cause is the computer though. In my experience, the more 'tricked out' a computer is the less clean it ends up being in the audio chain. Rob's observation of the Audioquest JittterBug was that it did indeed help with his laptop plugged in to the mains (though the improvement was small), while there was no improvement when on battery power alone. That was with the JitterBug, and I have no experience or haven't read anything with the iFi iUSB3.0.


----------



## maxh22

x relic x said:


> You bring some interesting evidence that suggests Rob's observations of RF noise causing brightness and a certain 'hardness' to audio. Strange given that the USB input on the DAVE is galvanically isolated, but like he has said, RF noise is like a hard to defeat fungus (I'm paraphrasing). I'm not surprised in the least that the cause is the computer though. In my experience, the more 'tricked out' a computer is the less clean it ends up being in the audio chain. Rob's observation of the Audioquest JittterBug was that it did indeed help with his laptop plugged in to the mains (though the improvement was small), while there was no improvement when on battery power alone. That was with the JitterBug, and I have no experience or haven't read anything with the iFi iUSB3.0.




I have a question Relic, I am currently using the Lifeatec optical cable and have connected it to my high end gaming pc. I expected the sound to to sound smoother than the penon usb cable connected to my phone, but in fact it sounds much brighter. 

How much of a role does the optical source play in sound quality? Would getting something like a W4S USB TO optical converter help me out? Or would it be wiser to use a dedicated sever?


----------



## x RELIC x

maxh22 said:


> I have a question Relic, I am currently using the Lifeatec optical cable and have connected it to my high end gaming pc. I expected the sound to to sound smoother than the penon usb cable connected to my phone, but in fact it sounds much brighter.
> 
> How much of a role does the optical source play in sound quality? Would getting something like a W4S USB TO optical converter help me out? Or would it be wiser to use a dedicated sever?




That's an area I haven't personally delved in to much at all with the DAVE. Personally, I just use my MacBook Pro running Audirvana+ USB (bit perfect settings) to the DAVE. I haven't bought expensive USB cables or actually tried optical yet. I'm just stating what I've read from Rob regarding the DAVE and my previous experience with 'high end' workstations feeding other audio sources. 

As you know, the optical is pulses of light, so there is no RF from that source to the DAVE with optical. Perhaps the wire impedance of the Penon USB cable is such that it's creating an overly smooth presentation. Or there may be some impedance in the plug, I really don't know. Have you tried the USB cable supplied with the DAVE? I think that is where you'll get your answer comparing to the Penon USB cable. If they sound the same then perhaps there is something in your playback software / audio drivers that is smoothing out the sound over USB vs optical. If it were me I'd keep the chain as simple as possible, but that's just how I roll.


----------



## ubs28

evolvist said:


> Day 5 or 6 with DAVE...I won't post every day, but Jesus this DAC is BRIGHT! And I'm not saying really in a good way, either. While it's true that clarity, timbre of instruments, depth and width are in a league of their own with the DAVE, this doesn't sound like the same DAC that I auditioned, twice in two different places. Both times that I auditioned the DAVE I thought it sounded very neutral with my HD800s, not dark or bright, now the brightness is killing me. This is on everything from hifi to lo-fi recordings.
> 
> Okay, so I'm thinking something must be amiss in my chain, yeah?
> 
> ...




The Dave can be bright with headphones like the HD 800. The HD 800 S version works better with the Chord Dave.


----------



## MacedonianHero

ubs28 said:


> The Dave can be bright with headphones like the HD 800. The HD 800 S version works better with the Chord Dave.


 
  
 I think you mean the HD800s are slightly bright and the DAVE will play them that way...the HD800S are the better headphones regardless as they fix that brightness and add some heft down low.


----------



## maxh22

x relic x said:


> That's an area I haven't personally delved in to much at all with the DAVE. Personally, I just use my MacBook Pro running Audirvana+ USB (bit perfect settings) to the DAVE. I haven't bought expensive USB cables or actually tried optical yet. I'm just stating what I've read from Rob regarding the DAVE and my previous experience with 'high end' workstations feeding other audio sources.
> 
> As you know, the optical is pulses of light, so there is no RF from that source to the DAVE with optical. Perhaps the wire impedance of the Penon USB cable is such that it's creating an overly smooth presentation. Or there may be some impedance in the plug, I really don't know. Have you tried the USB cable supplied with the DAVE? I think that is where you'll get your answer comparing to the Penon USB cable. If they sound the same then perhaps there is something in your playback software / audio drivers that is smoothing out the sound over USB vs optical. If it were me I'd keep the chain as simple as possible, but that's just how I roll.


 
  @Torq can you help me out since you have more experience with optical audio?
  
 Does this setting look correct? The other option (TX1) does not output sound.


----------



## rkt31

I have not found any recording in which Patricia Barber's vocals are not bright. even mfsl releases have this problem. may be it is something to do with Patricia Barber's singing technique. she seems to be singing a lot closer to mic.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ubs28 said:


> The Dave can be bright with headphones like the HD 800. The HD 800 S version works better with the Chord Dave.




Eh, well, once I switched to my laptop the overt brightness was gone. In fact, I would say things smoothed up quite a bit, even though I've yet to listen to any classical music, as I will do tomorrow, giving my ears a break.

I really didn't care for the HD800S. I could be wrong but they seem like Sennheiser's bid to hit the colorized headphone market, which seems to be a trend. Now, of course all cans are colored, the same as speakers, but I feel that the HD800 is just a little less than most.

That said, I'm intrigued by the AQ Nighthawk cans because of Rob Watts. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a more colored pair when the mood is right.

NOTE: I'm not dogging the HD800S, or anyone who uses them; I'm just saying that if I move away to something else, it will be a different theme.


----------



## rgs9200m

Try a Senn HD650 with the Dave. That's always my first option when I have a brightness situation. It's truly a great headphone. (Then try an HD600.)
 I'd be curious to know how it sounds. I love them with my EMM.


----------



## TheAttorney

As posted here a while back, I was totally disappointed with the HD800S when I tried them with DAVE, compared to my long term BHSE/009 driven by DAVE.
  
 I later saw at least one of the reasons for this: The 800S has a broad frequency response dip after around 1khz, followed by a sharp peak at around 7khz. I've read that the S version is better than the original 800 at this - if so, I'm glad I didn't hear the originals! This frequency response explained why female vocals sounded simultaneously distant and thin. I even preferred my HD600 over the HD800S for this reason. It's possible that the 009 has the inverse response (i.e. a slight hump above 1khz) that exaggerated the effect for me. I find Patricia Barber recordings very good overall, but can be rather close and  "hot", with sibilance never far away, so such recordings will further show up this issue with the the 800S.
  
 I think it was Rob who replied that DAVE's transparency will readily show up such differences with headphone sound signatures, so there is no hiding place, for good or for bad.
  
 Apparently, mods to the 800 and 800S can reduce this issue, and I'm sure that equalisation would help enormously in this case - but I was so disappointed with the baseline that I'll be looking elsewhere for a dynamics headphone to compete with my BHSE/009.


----------



## astrostar59

theattorney said:


> As posted here a while back, I was totally disappointed with the HD800S when I tried them with DAVE, compared to my long term BHSE/009 driven by DAVE.
> 
> I later saw at least one of the reasons for this: The 800S has a broad frequency response dip after around 1khz, followed by a sharp peak at around 7khz. I've read that the S version is better than the original 800 at this - if so, I'm glad I didn't hear the originals! This frequency response explained why female vocals sounded simultaneously distant and thin. I even preferred my HD600 over the HD800S for this reason. It's possible that the 009 has the inverse response (i.e. a slight hump above 1khz) that exaggerated the effect for me. I find Patricia Barber recordings very good overall, but can be rather close and  "hot", with sibilance never far away, so such recordings will further show up this issue with the the 800S.
> 
> ...


 
 How are you feeding the DAVE? Is using software it is easy to use an AU filter to tweak the response. I found some of those filters have minimal effect (if any) to the sound quality but do bring the HF shelf down (or up) to suit your system. The 31 band EQ is bad mind, and most of the others. But the shelf a logarithm filters are great.
  
 Does the DAVE have any filter pre-sets to choose from?
  
 My Audio Note DAC being R-2R has an expected 3dB drop from 15K and up, it is the way 44.1 NOS behaves. I can take that drop out with those filters if required. With the 009s it is fine, with the 007As I put it back in.


----------



## romaz

astrostar59 said:


> Does the DAVE have any filter pre-sets to choose from?


 
 DAVE has a single HF filter that can be toggled on and off.  It is designed to reduce noise shaper noise from the ADC with high sample rate recordings by limiting bandwidth above 60kHz.  I have not found it to impact "brightness."


----------



## TheAttorney

astrostar59 said:


> How are you feeding the DAVE? Is using software it is easy to use an AU filter to tweak the response. I found some of those filters have minimal effect (if any) to the sound quality but do bring the HF shelf down (or up) to suit your system.


 
 I have both JRiver and HQ Player on my Windows 10 laptop. JRiver does have an equaliser and HQP doesn't, but I find HQP fundamentally sounds better, so that's what I exclusively use for playback in my main system, in NAA mode via microRendu.
  
 Now, HQP has this mode that sounds something like "Convolution" from memory, which allows you to plug in 3rd party s/w that changes the sound signature, e.g. for room correction for speakers. It all sounded very "convoluted" when I looked into it. All I want is a simple equaliser, but all I could find were complicated things that gave me a headache trying to understand them.
  
 I find DAVE's HF filter the most subtle of all its options. Much more so than, say, the phase switch, or playing about with vibration control.
 Therefore I don't really care if it's switched on or off. If pushed, I'd say that off is slightly more open/transparent, and on is slightly smoother, but the effect is so subtle that it could just be my imagination. This is all with redbook FLAC files.


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> Eh, well, once I switched to my laptop the overt brightness was gone. In fact, I would say things smoothed up quite a bit, even though I've yet to listen to any classical music, as I will do tomorrow, giving my ears a break.
> 
> I really didn't care for the HD800S. I could be wrong but they seem like Sennheiser's bid to hit the colorized headphone market, which seems to be a trend. Now, of course all cans are colored, the same as speakers, but I feel that the HD800 is just a little less than most.
> 
> ...


 
 Sounds like you fixed your problem but I agree, what you're describing is something I've not encountered with source components paired with the DAVE if the recording itself isn't bright. As the DAVE will flesh out more detail from a recording than any other DAC I have encountered, some may equate this affront of detail that they aren't used to as a "brightness" upon first encounter but because this detail isn't associated with the glare or edge I have experienced with other DACs, similar to the opinion of others, I would not describe the DAVE as bright at all.
  
 As has been suggested, there are 2 ways to assess if the brightness is due to ground noise being leaked to the DAVE via your source:  1)  Run your source (laptop) off batteries but you'll have to make sure your mains cable is completely unplugged from the wall and 2) connect via optical cable.  Either will break any ground loop present between your source and the DAVE.
  
 I have yet to hear a source sound "bad" with the DAVE via either USB or optical although many here (myself included) have found that some sources _can _sound better than others.  I have tried Rob's suggestion of running a Windows laptop off batteries, plugging in an AQ Jittberbug and utilizing Chord's ASIO driver and this indeed led to improvements in terms of perceived noise floor, clarity and dynamics.  If you stay with a Windows PC, consider this combination.  This combination, however, still doesn't sound as good as what I'm getting from my microRendu/HQPlayer combination and so I struggle to understand why.  If the issue isn't RF or jitter and output is bit-perfect, there may be other factors not well understood or easily measured.
  
 I have also found that fatigue can lead to the perception of brightness.  It sounds like you've been listening to music almost non-stop since you got your DAVE (which is understandable).  Take a day or two off and see how you feel after that.  It may be too much of a good thing.
  
 As for rolling headphones for the sake of color, there's definitely nothing wrong with this and this is the beauty of headphones vs speakers.  While my personal preference is for a neutral, transparent and highly resolving DAC, that doesn't mean I'm against color and it can be a wonderful thing to suit a certain mood.  The Nighthawks have a pleasing natural warmth to them.  If you want to go even warmer/darker, consider any of the Audezes.  Rolling headphone cables can result in a similar impact also and this may be a more cost-effective solution than owning several headphones.  Like JaZZ suggested, the Moon Black Dragon can nicely tame a bright headphone like the HD800S.  I would add the Nordost Heimdal 2 to that list.  I found my SilverSpore4 also nicely tamed it without any compromise in resolution.  I'm sure the Prion4 would be even better if you have the budget for it.


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> I have both JRiver and HQ Player on my Windows 10 laptop. JRiver does have an equaliser and HQP doesn't, but I find HQP fundamentally sounds better, so that's what I exclusively use for playback in my main system, in NAA mode via microRendu.
> 
> Now, HQP has this mode that sounds something like "Convolution" from memory, which allows you to plug in 3rd party s/w that changes the sound signature, e.g. for room correction for speakers. It all sounded very "convoluted" when I looked into it. All I want is a simple equaliser, but all I could find were complicated things that gave me a headache trying to understand them.
> 
> ...


 
 I'm exploring convolution with HQP now and like you said, it provides you potentially complex but powerful options to be able to digitally equalize your output without any noticeable degradation in SQ.


----------



## astrostar59

romaz said:


> I'm exploring convolution with HQP now and like you said, it provides you potentially complex but powerful options to be able to digitally equalize your output without any noticeable degradation in SQ.


 
 If you use USB out from a PC or Mac, I would recommend the TotalDAC USB/Filter. It seems to removed the last bit of grunge and fuzz and cleans things up nicely. It also makes thinks sound more real and a small amount of extra warmth, but no loss of transparency.
  
 The other thing with USB audio is even the more expensive DACs can have USB input that can be improved upon. All DACs I have tried with built in USB can be beat with the M2Tech full stack inc 9V DC supply or the Off-Ramp 5. It gives more soundstage width and layering but crucially takes out any remaining treble edge.


----------



## EVOLVIST

astrostar59 said:


> If you use USB out from a PC or Mac, I would recommend the TotalDAC USB/Filter. It seems to removed the last bit of grunge and fuzz and cleans things up nicely. It also makes thinks sound more real and a small amount of extra warmth, but no loss of transparency.
> 
> The other thing with USB audio is even the more expensive DACs can have USB input that can be improved upon. All DACs I have tried with built in USB can be beat with the M2Tech full stack inc 9V DC supply or the Off-Ramp 5. It gives more soundstage width and layering but crucially takes out any remaining treble edge.




If I'm reading these 3 products correctly now I'm bottlenecked at 24/192? Not that I can really hear or that I think that DSD is better, but there are some newer masters, SACD rips, and DXD recordings that I can only get in those formats. Hmmmm...well, I guess there's always a trade-off somewhere.


----------



## lovethatsound

theattorney said:


> As posted here a while back, I was totally disappointed with the HD800S when I tried them with DAVE, compared to my long term BHSE/009 driven by DAVE.
> 
> I later saw at least one of the reasons for this: The 800S has a broad frequency response dip after around 1khz, followed by a sharp peak at around 7khz. I've read that the S version is better than the original 800 at this - if so, I'm glad I didn't hear the originals! This frequency response explained why female vocals sounded simultaneously distant and thin. I even preferred my HD600 over the HD800S for this reason. It's possible that the 009 has the inverse response (i.e. a slight hump above 1khz) that exaggerated the effect for me. I find Patricia Barber recordings very good overall, but can be rather close and  "hot", with sibilance never far away, so such recordings will further show up this issue with the the 800S.
> 
> ...


I've been using the original hd800 with the Dave,and i have to say i have NO such problems.IN fact ,like I've said before on here,they sound fantastic with the Dave.I think this just goes to show how different people hear different sounds from headphones.


----------



## Torq

maxh22 said:


> @Torq can you help me out since you have more experience with optical audio?
> 
> Does this setting look correct? The other option (TX1) does not output sound.


 
  
 I really haven't used Windows for Audio, outside some troubleshooting, since 2008, so I'm not the best person to ask.
  
 If you're not using an ASIO or WASAPI driver interface to your optical or USB connections, then you're subject to the re-sampling and other nonsense that goes on in the standard Windows audio path/Mixer.  So the first thing to do would be to make sure whatever you're using to play music with is using either ASIO or WASAPI.  If you're using the standard motherboard drivers for your on-board optical output it's almost certainly NOT ASIO or WASAPI.  And that'll have more of an effect on sound than your choice of interface.


----------



## pkcpga

lovethatsound said:


> I've been using the original hd800 with the Dave,and i have to say i have NO such problems.IN fact ,like I've said before on here,they sound fantastic with the Dave.I think this just goes to show how different people hear different sounds from headphones.




I also have not had any issues with the Dave and hd800, but I've never tried the 800s with it. Also like torq do not use Windows for audio.


----------



## EVOLVIST

pkcpga said:


> I also have not had any issues with the Dave and hd800, but I've never tried the 800s with it. Also like torq do not use Windows for audio.


 
  
  
 Then what would you suggest using for audio if not Windows?


----------



## maxh22

torq said:


> I really haven't used Windows for Audio, outside some troubleshooting, since 2008, so I'm not the best person to ask.
> 
> If you're not using an ASIO or WASAPI driver interface to your optical or USB connections, then you're subject to the re-sampling and other nonsense that goes on in the standard Windows audio path/Mixer.  So the first thing to do would be to make sure whatever you're using to play music with is using either ASIO or WASAPI.  If you're using the standard motherboard drivers for your on-board optical output it's almost certainly NOT ASIO or WASAPI.  And that'll have more of an effect on sound than your choice of interface.




ASIO and WASAPI seem to only work with usb drivers and not with optical not sure why that is. I can confirm that the signal is bitperfect since Mojos light is red. I let a few people listen to the optical out from my pc and the micro usb from the phone, and everyone one of them prefered the micro usb. It sounds smoother and has less grain than the optical. The optical in this case actually sounds really bright, hard, and siblant.


----------



## Torq

evolvist said:


> Then what would you suggest using for audio if not Windows?


 
  
 My personal computing environment is all Apple/macOS.
  
 That won't work for everyone, nor am I specifically advocating for it, it's just what I use.


----------



## pkcpga

I also use all apple/MacOS.


----------



## Torq

maxh22 said:


> ASIO and WASAPI seem to only work with usb drivers and not with optical not sure why that is. I can confirm that the signal is bitperfect since Mojos light is red. I let a few people listen to the optical out from my pc and the micro usb from the phone, and everyone one of them prefered the micro usb. It sounds smoother and has less grain than the optical. The optical in this case actually sounds really bright, hard, and siblant.


 
  
 When I still ran Windows, I used an ASIO driver (it may have been ASIO4ALL) with my motherboard-provided optical S/PDIF interface; it's definitely NOT limited to just USB (though its possible that you can't use it with your specific motherboard).
  
 The indicator light on the Chord Mojo *doesn't* tell you that it's receiving bit-perfect data (there's no way it can possibly know).  All it tells you is what bit-rate the data is being received at.  Red indicates 16-bit/44.1 KHz.  And if you put an EQ tool in the chain, and mess around with that, that'll result in the data no longer matching what's in the source file but your Mojo will still show a red light if the bit-rate and sample depth hasn't changed.
  
 It's entirely possible that your USB connection sounds better than your optical.  That could be down to any number of factors, including a poor optical cable, too many bends in it, too tight a bend in it, a poor optical emitter on the motherboard and so on.  You might also have a very-low noise USB output, which would help.  Lots of variable here, it's a lot more complicated than just "random USB" vs. "random optical" connection.
  
 If you have a cheap plastic TOSLINK cable, bent even slightly too tightly, or that's slightly too long, you'll find it won't work AT ALL for some sample rates.
  
 Regardless, if you're going through the standard Windows audio path none of the interfaces is going to sound as good as it could.


----------



## Beolab

Track for all DAVE users to try out: 

Dean Peer 

https://tidal.com/track/10071762


----------



## x RELIC x

Not all optical implementations are good, that's for sure. The AK100 mk2 that I purchased for stacking with the Mojo sounds hard and etched through optical vs the AK240 optical out, which is smooth and natural. Same cable, same files.

My guess is that the on board optical is simply not up to snuff.


----------



## maxh22

x relic x said:


> Not all optical implementations are good, that's for sure. The AK100 mk2 that I purchased for stacking with the Mojo sounds hard and etched through optical vs the AK240 optical out, which is smooth and natural. Same cable, same files.
> 
> My guess is that the on board optical is simply not up to snuff.


 
 Do you think this a good solution so I can have higher quality optical audio?
  
 https://wyred4sound.com/products/dacs-converters/%C2%B5link


----------



## pkcpga

maxh22 said:


> Do you think this a good solution so I can have higher quality optical audio?
> 
> https://wyred4sound.com/products/dacs-converters/%C2%B5link




I know a few people that use this and get good results with windows based computers. I personally have never used it.
http://www.microrendu.sonore.us


----------



## x RELIC x

maxh22 said:


> Do you think this a good solution so I can have higher quality optical audio?
> 
> https://wyred4sound.com/products/dacs-converters/%C2%B5link




I'm not sure, I haven't used anything like that. I must be lucky because I've had no issues from my USB source to the DAVE that I can hear so that's just what I use. What I personally would be interested in is the combined effect of the asynchronous jitter from the uLINK in addition to the jitter insensitive optical input on the DAVE (and other Chord DACs for that matter). Given that the DAVE has galvanic isolation on USB, optical is RF immune, and that the DAVE is also pretty much jitter immune on all its inputs (according to Rob), then I see no real reason for the uLINK. I think the source of the optical is the issue, not just because of potential jitter. Your computer may be adding some signal processing in the optical output as Torq was suggesting. That's my suspicion with the less than stellar AK100 mk2 optical output. Then again it could be cheap optical hardware causing the issue. The only way to be sure is to test one in your signal path. Sorry 'bout your wallet.

As pkcpga pointed out above, I think a proven clean source is the best bet to place your money rather than add-ons that may be more beneficial to less capable gear than the DAVE where source input jitter and noise is concerned. Of course this is just my _opinion_, again, I haven't used the uLINK so I have no real weight to my thoughts here, YMMV.


----------



## theveterans

> Originally Posted by *maxh22*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm very confident that DAVE's own audio processing is far better than any converters. In fact, you might make jitter worse since you have another jitter being introduced through that converter or any other converter for that matter. Those converters are essential only if your DAC does not have a USB input.


----------



## maxh22

theveterans said:


> I'm very confident that DAVE's own audio processing is far better than any converters. In fact, you might make jitter worse since you have another jitter being introduced through that converter or any other converter for that matter. Those converters are essential only if your DAC does not have a USB input.


 
 I meant for Mojo, not Dave. I read about Evolvist's noisy usb pc issue and was reminded that I face a similar issue with optical and Mojo. I was hoping someone on here has some experience using multiple optical sources and the difference in sound quality between them.


----------



## EVOLVIST

pkcpga said:


> I know a few people that use this and get good results with windows based computers. I personally have never used it.
> http://www.microrendu.sonore.us




I've also read a real craptastic review of the microRendu. Granted, I think the guy's testing is a bit flawed, and nobody tried to replicate his findings; still, I contacted the company and asked if they had any spec/data sheets (of course not mentioning the review), and their response was just to trust them. What? I don't trust my own wife with bread; how am I gonna trust this guy. Rendu. Rendu. Rendu. I just like the sound of it, though. The word only, at this point.

http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/measurements-of-sonore-microrendu-streamer.577/


----------



## x RELIC x

evolvist said:


> I've also read a real craptastic review of the microRendu. Granted, I think the guy's testing is a bit flawed, and nobody tried to replicate his findings; still, I contacted the company and asked if they had any spec/data sheets (of course not mentioning the review), and their response was just to trust them. What? I don't trust my own wife with bread; how am I gonna trust this guy. Rendu. Rendu. Rendu. I just like the sound of it, though. The word only, at this point.
> 
> http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/measurements-of-sonore-microrendu-streamer.577/




Am I missing something or does that 'review' only show that the iFi power supply sucks?


----------



## EVOLVIST

x relic x said:


> Am I missing something or does that 'review' only show that the iFi power supply sucks?




Well, yes! Yes it does! 

But here is my fundamental lack of knowledge. Okay, so the DAVE has no noticeable noise floor modulation, dipping all the way to -350db, correct? If my understanding is wrong, please correct me. But, introducing a noisy signal, even if it's theoretically below the range of human hearing, let's say what the review demonstrated at -127db or there abouts, wouldn't that pollute the DAVE's output, meaning that all data going into the DAVE is a pollutant? Or is my understanding totally flawed?

Or do the flaws coming with the signal must be at or below the original signal?


----------



## x RELIC x

evolvist said:


> Well, yes! Yes it does!
> 
> But here is my fundamental lack of knowledge. Okay, so the DAVE has no noticeable noise floor modulation, dipping all the way to -350db, correct? If my understanding is wrong, please correct me. But, introducing a noisy signal, even if it's theoretically below the range of human hearing, let's say what the review demonstrated at -127db or there abouts, wouldn't that pollute the DAVE's output, meaning that all data going into the DAVE is a pollutant? Or is my understanding totally flawed?
> 
> Or do the flaws coming with the signal must be at or below the original signal?




Well, fundamentally, this is really a question for Rob as I am no where near qualified to answer that question (yes, I'm dodging the question in case I get it wrong). :wink_face:

__________________________________________________________________________


_Side note regarding 'theoretically below the range of human hearing':_ 

It's interesting that Rob clearly hears a difference to depth in the recording with a noise floor of -350 dB, and yet everybody else (including industry chip makers) _assumes_ that such noise floor is not audible. Do other people who make such claims even listen to their hardware performance when designing it? It's interesting reading Rob's previous stories about how the assumption from other chip designers was that a certain performance was not audible, until he invited them to hear the results for themselves. That ended that conversation pretty quick. I seriously doubt Rob would have spent months doing listening tests to lower the noise floor if he didn't hear a change as he continued to do so in very controlled listening tests. Indeed, even he has said he was surprised at the results, and that before working on the DAVE he would have thought that such low noise floor having audible benefits would be bollocks. I am continually dumbfounded that claims of 'it's not audible' come about and we humans, in general, short change our senses and our brains' abilities.

Quite often we read things along the lines of 'it's better' but 'better' can be difficult to pinpoint. Without careful listening tests with small changes to one aspect of the sound it would be near impossible to articulate and pinpoint what differences we hear with better performing gear, especially at this level. However, our brains know they hear a difference and I'm of the belief we should trust our brain (within reason of course to avoid snake oil). A great example was when I first heard the Mojo. I LOVED it but couldn't quite put my finger on what I loved about it. The tonality was smooth and the soundstage wasn't extra wide. These were traits that were the opposite of what I was moving toward at the time in my acquisition of other gear. The nebulous 'neutral' signature that seemed to bring more detail to the mix. Why did the Mojo click so well with me then? I think because it was a much deeper and more natural look in to the original recording than anything I've heard before without as much noise, as subtle as it may be, added to the output. The Mojo didn't have noise floor modulation polluting the signal, adding a 'hardness' to the mix that instinctively sounded unnatural, but previous to my first listen of the Mojo I could not identify it, It needed to be put in to perspective first.

For example, after listening to the Mojo for some months, and before I received the DAVE, I had sold my other desktop gear to fund some purchases. I hooked up the iDAC2 to fill in for desktop duty until the DAVE arrived (I have a thing about using battery powered gear in a desktop environment so I didn't want to use the Mojo), but when I listened to music on the iDAC2, feeding the Cavalli Liquid Crimson I had on demo at the time, I was floored by what I heard. The music sounded slow. Yes, like I was listening to a 45RPM lp at 33RPM - perhaps not that drastic, but still. It was very unusual, but I noticed it immediately and still notice it when I hook it up. I won the iDAC2 in a Head Fi contest and although I thought it was decent when I received it I never heard it as slow. Only after having the Mojo for so long and becoming _accustomed_ to it's sound did I feel this way going back to the iDAC2. Don't get me wrong, the iDAC2 is ok for the price and if you aren't used to something far better then it's a good piece of gear. It's only in comparison that I noticed the difference _after acclimating to something with much better performance_, but I can't say the differences are from the noise floor modulation, or THD, or crosstalk. All I can say is that I prefer the Mojo and the iDAC2 sounds slow to me (smeared too). That's the just way my brain perceives the differences, as strange as it may be, but they are definitely perceivable.

So when I read that some piece of gear has measurements that are 'good enough' and 'not audible' or 'it measures flat' I usually ignore it because to me, in many cases, I can hear a difference whether extremely subtle or profound.


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## romaz

evolvist said:


> I've also read a real craptastic review of the microRendu. Granted, I think the guy's testing is a bit flawed, and nobody tried to replicate his findings; still, I contacted the company and asked if they had any spec/data sheets (of course not mentioning the review), and their response was just to trust them. What? I don't trust my own wife with bread; how am I gonna trust this guy. Rendu. Rendu. Rendu. I just like the sound of it, though. The word only, at this point.
> 
> http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/measurements-of-sonore-microrendu-streamer.577/


 
 I'm aware of Amir's posts, not just on ASR, which he co-owns, but also on WBF.  He makes some valid points and I don't completely dismiss them.  As a person of science, I am more inclined to side with someone who can back up their claims with data (like Rob does so well) and I have to agree that Swenson, et al, have made some supremacy claims about the microRendu without showing data.  The problem I have with Amir is while he is showing measurements using test tones to show that the mR with a decent LPSU, at best, does no harm and with the IFI PSU, at worst, induces harm, he hasn't actually done any listening and seems to refuse to, insisting that if the measurements are bad, there's no point.  This is typical of engineers who are non-audiophiles (Amir claims he is but I have my doubts).  To these types of engineers, the data is all that matters and if someone claims they hear something but the tests don't show it, it must be a placebo effect.
  
 In the medical field, there are 2 types of research.  There is _basic science_ research that allows scientists to develop drugs based on theory that hopefully will result in therapeutic benefit for a certain disease and then there's _clinical _research that measures _outcomes_ to confirm that the drug actually does what it proposes to do to a statistically significant certainty (well beyond a placebo effect).  As I am involved in this type of research, there are times when clinical research will indeed confirm that a drug works as intended, other times when this research will show the drug doesn't work any better than placebo or can actually cause harm and then every so often, it will show the drug has unintended benefits, sometimes with no explanation at all.  Sometimes, these unintended benefits would never have come to light except through clinical research.  An example of this is Pepto Bismol, which many of you know first hand can be effective in controlling diarrhea and yet, to this day, no basic scientist can explain the mechanism for its action.  
  
 My point is that if a certain outcome is observed (such as the microRendu sounds better than other music servers) and lab measurements show this can't be, are we to dismiss the benefits that thousands are experiencing as a placebo effect?  Is it possible we don't have the knowledge or equipment to explain the difference?
  
 Just yesterday, I once again compared my Windows laptop running on batteries + AQ Jitterbug + Roon via Chord's ASIO driver VS the microRendu running in NAA mode (which, as far as I know, Amir hasn't tested) + Roon/HQPlayer and the microRendu wins _easily, _hence my comment yesterday that if it's not due to RF or jitter and if the output is bit-perfect, could there be some other parameter that might be impacting SQ from a music server?  All I know is that I have a fair amount of experience with music servers.  Some of you are familiar with the thread I started last year that continues to go strong:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/787020/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box
  
 As I have reported that in my comparisons, the microRendu has outperformed anything from Aurender (including the W20), Lumin (including the U1), Auralic and any purpose-built PC-based music server I have heard, I have since received dozens of PMs from people corroborating my findings.  In fact, I have yet to hear from anyone telling me that they found the mR to be inferior to whatever they had before.  Not to say this is impossible but thus far, it hasn't happened.  
  
 I have learned something from Amir, nonetheless, that has benefited my microRendu.  His data shows the iFi to be a noisy PSU and I have confirmed that it is and while the iFi was only meant to be a placeholder until my bespoke Paul Hynes PSU comes in (and unfortunately, I'm still waiting), I have found that running the microRendu off of the following battery definitely lowers the mR's noise floor:
  
 http://www.ravpower.com/ravpower-23000mah-portable-charger-external-battery-charger.html
  
 I have been using this battery for some time now and while it probably doesn't have an optimum output impedance, it is indeed quieter than the iFi and removes the possibility of any ground loops occurring between the microRendu and the DAVE.  This is why I believe the upcoming LPS-1 by Uptone Audio, which is based on superconductors like the TT could potentially be the ideal PSU for the microRendu as it isn't connected to ground and is supposed to have a very low output impedance.
  
 Ultimately, this is how I see the bottom line.  Irrespective of what claims Sonore has made about the microRendu that hasn't been backed by data, it is the market that ultimately decides how good a product is and I think the market has spoken pretty clearly.  And if we are indeed deluded about how good the microRendu is, what does that say about other well-regarded music servers like the $17k Aurender W20 that a few Head-fiers have told me they sold and replaced with the microRendu?


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## EVOLVIST

@Romaz, good post! However, I guess at the end of the day I wasn't so much hanging any hats on Amir's findings, but more of how any audio input is supposed to live up to DAVE. These are my uneducated thoughts (though I'm becoming more educated, slowly, since I had never put much thought into the science of audio). That is, if we go by the principle of "garbage in, garbage out," then it would seem to me, in my limited understanding, that every frequency that we put into DAVE, even if said frequency is music or signal is below the threshold of human hearing, it would still get in the way of the audio cues that the brain picks up beyond what we can hear. In other words if the DAVE is so sophisticated to have no noise modulation at -350db (which I believe to be true), yet there is induced noise from our signal at -250db, wouldn't that cover up the subtle cues that only the brain can assimilate at -350db? 

Know this: I'm not calling out anybody or any product. Neither is that my future goal. I'm merely seeking answers in an audio world awash with often seemingly conflicting information. 

The next question goes hand-in-hand with the first, to wit, Rob tests the creation of the DAVE with music that all of us have access to. Rob heard sound below what we are believe the ear can hear...But Rob is also getting some sort of junk in his playback system, yes? I mean, he has to. So, do these artifacts actually form a barrier between the -250db and the next 100 -350db. Some kind of junk is there. As far as I know, there's not a single transport that is so clean that no crap is injected at somewhere between 127db and -350. If there was, we would all own that transport.

And would Rob need all of the audiophile cables and interconnects, power supplies and fancy software to arrive at his design? Is that how he heard below the normal span of hearing to where we are now able to tap into the power of how we REALLY hear, using the mind?

On the other hand, I'm thinking, hey, even if there is crap in the line, it's not like it's a solid barrier akin to a steel wall, right? It would be more like mesh, perhaps intermittent, maybe a few spikes here and there, but not wholy rigid.

There must be a fallacy in my logic. I know there must. And none of this is because the DAVE was bright on my tricked out computer, yet better on my Windows 10 laptop. Or...well...Maybe a little, because now I'm searching for a better transport. But really it's because I'm trying to make out why the DAVE sounds so good, and what can get in the way of it, even under both the best AND worst case scenarios. 

(Typing from my phone sucks.)


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## romaz

evolvist said:


> @Romaz, good post! However, I guess at the end of the day I wasn't so much hanging any hats on Amir's findings, but more of how any audio input is supposed to live up to DAVE. These are my uneducated thoughts (though I'm becoming more educated, slowly, since I had never put much thought into the science of audio). That is, if we go by the principle of "garbage in, garbage out," then it would seem to me, in my limited understanding, that every frequency that we put into DAVE, even if said frequency is music or signal is below the threshold of human hearing, it would still get in the way of the audio cues that the brain picks up beyond what we can hear. In other words if the DAVE is so sophisticated to have no noise modulation at -350db (which I believe to be true), yet there is induced noise from our signal at -250db, wouldn't that cover up the subtle cues that only the brain can assimilate at -350db?
> 
> Know this: I'm not calling out anybody or any product. Neither is that my future goal. I'm merely seeking answers in an audio world awash with often seemingly conflicting information.
> 
> ...


 
 My ultimate point is this -- the only golden ears that should matter are our own and the only valid tests that should matter are what our brains tell us is good.  As has been said so many times, if it sounds good, then it is good.  What I have problems with (and this has happened plenty of times on this thread) is when people make summary judgements against a product like the DAVE never having really listened to it.
  
 Rob can speak for himself but what I have found is this -- because the DAVE is so revealing, it will often reveal the weakness or the limits of anything connected to it.  Along this line, I have also found that the DAVE has so much potential not yet tapped because of the limitations of our ancillary gear that if you are willing to go to the nth degree to improve your system, the DAVE will scale as high as you take it.  I am continually amazed by this.


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## Rob Watts

evolvist said:


> Well, yes! Yes it does!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 OK, just to clarify, as the issue of -350 dB performance has created some confusion. This is the *digital* performance of the noise shaper. And to do this I set up a Verilog simulator test; you supply the Verilog noise shaper module (this is the actual design of the noise shaper, coded in Verilog which is a way of creating digital logic using coding) together with some data as the input, then the simulator runs the test and records the output data. I then take this output data and do FFT's on it, which are the results I published before. Now although the term simulation is used, it is completely exact - you feed the noise shaper this data, the output is guaranteed to be that output. So it is a perfect measurement of the digital performance of the noise shaper. But of course, it is only the digital domain performance - in reality the DAC actual analogue outputs will be very much worse than this.
  
 So why is 350 dB performance important? 
  
 Its not the noise, as this is about 64 bit performance, and a 24 bit audio file source will be a trillion times noisier than this.
  
 What is key to why this is important is about how noise shapers work. Now if you supply a noise shaper with a signal, there comes a point where the signal is so small that it can no longer change the noise shaper output sequence - so a noise shaper becomes blind to tiny signals. What this means in practice is that as a signal gets smaller it gradually gets attenuated in level. Eventually the signal is so small it has no effect on the output noise shaper bitstream, and so ultra small signals are lost. Now the noise shaper noise floor gives you an indication of when this will happen - signals below the noise shaper noise floor will get attenuated and eventually completely lost. So that is why I now run a test to see how well the digital path functions with a -301 dB test signal - it must reproduce that perfectly with no change in amplitude.
  
 Now small signal accuracy is very important for depth perception, as small echo cues tells the brain that a sound is further away. So if these signals are being attenuated its easy to see that you won't perceive depth properly.
  
 But what is truly bizarre is that *any* attenuation, no matter how small, has an impact in how the brain calculates depth; indeed I am now of the opinion that there is no limit to how accurate small signal accuracy needs to be. If you think about that, that is extremely odd that the brain can be so sensitive. And we are not talking about effects that are hard to hear - its very obvious and easy to hear.
  
 So the 350 dB performance is only in the digital domain, and its not about noise or noise floor modulation but about how accurate small signals are being preserved in terms of their amplitude.
  
 Rob


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## Mavwong

I once judge urendu with ifi, BIG mistake. So I could say ifi sucks, I should have not include ifi ps and save myself a good meal.
  
  
  
 Quote:


x relic x said:


> Am I missing something or does that 'review' only show that the iFi power supply sucks?


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## Sunya

rob watts said:


> What is key to why this is important is about how noise shapers work. Now if you supply a noise shaper with a signal, there comes a point where the signal is so small that it can no longer change the noise shaper output sequence - so a noise shaper becomes blind to tiny signals. What this means in practice is that as a signal gets smaller it gradually gets attenuated in level. Eventually the signal is so small it has no effect on the output noise shaper bitstream, and so ultra small signals are lost. Now the noise shaper noise floor gives you an indication of when this will happen - signals below the noise shaper noise floor will get attenuated and eventually completely lost.


 
  
 The question is how small can be the smallest signal encoded in a 24 bit file; leaving aside the noise level of mic preamps, the best studio AD converters have a dynamic range not greater than 21-22 bits. So if the smallest signal would theoretically be at -130dB how come the DAC's noise shaper performance needs to go down to -350dB? Is this overhead needed for the noise shaper to work properly on -130dB signals?


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## Crgreen

I've been using PS Audio's LANRover with the DAVE, with good results.


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## romaz

As many that follow this thread know, there have been comments made recently about how little difference certain people found with the DAVE compared to another DAC.  This has led me to wonder if this is because expectations were unrealistic or because a person's system wasn't resolving enough?  You could also consider the possibility that a certain person doesn't have a discerning enough ear but I'm less inclined to believe this as even my non-audiophile wife can easily discern between the DAVE and any other DAC I have had in my home for testing.
  
 As someone recently reminded me, I had posted once that what is connected _after_ the DAVE can make a bigger difference than what is connected _before_ the DAVE and I continue to believe that this is true.  While the DAVE is the most resolving source I have ever experienced, speakers and headphones still make a bigger difference.  While there are some who can't readily appreciate the differences between DACs, I don't believe anyone would have trouble differentiating between the HD800, HE-1000, LCD-3 or Abyss in a blind test.  
  
 But what about cables?  For some, this remains an overlooked or underestimated component.  Having looked at the component list of a recent poster who claimed he couldn't tell much difference between the DAVE and another DAC, I was surprised to see he had very expensive and well-regarded speakers and monoblock amplifiers but was using a pair of 20-year old interconnects of uncertain reputation.  I suspect my wanting to discuss the impact of cables will cause some to dismiss this post.  I, too, belonged to this group once.  In fact, before the DAVE, I struggled to hear much difference among cables.  As I previously mentioned, however, because the DAVE is so revealing, the differences among cables are more easily discerned with the DAVE.  Looking at it another way, if you are going to maximize the potential of your DAVE, cables absolutely matter...at least that is the premise I would like to now prove.
  
 Well, I decided to look at the impact of interconnects with the DAVE more formally to see just how much they matter and how they might affect the resolution of a transducer like the HE-1000 or Abyss when connected to the DAVE.  If you are to believe the Blue Jeans Cables website (makers of no-nonsense budget cables), they believe that "The most important attributes of a line-level unbalanced audio cable are (1) shielding, and (2) capacitance."  And that's it.  At a fundamental level, this is probably true although they seem to believe that the measures they undertook to achieve "an extremely low capacitance of 12.2 pF/ft" made for an adequately competent interconnect.  Indeed, I bought into this idea and for years, I used Blue Jeans Cables RCA interconnects.  
  
 As I made upgrades to my system, it only made sense to also explore upgarding my cables and periodically, I did so.  I tried a variety of interconnects, both single-ended and balanced, from manufacturers like Cardas, AudioQuest, Audience, Morrow and JPS Labs before settling on a set of Antipodes Reference RCA ICs when I bought my TotalDac.  While I could hear differences, especially between the inexpensive Blue Jeans ICs and the Antipodes, the differences somehow were nothing to write home about and it seemed to be more about tonal differences than resolution differences.
  
 For this set of tests, I brought out my old pair of Blue Jeans Cables RCA interconnects ($30) as a baseline comparator.  I decided to specifically look at the impact of metallurgy with respect to resolution, specifically copper vs silver vs silver/gold alloy.  I also wanted to assess the impact of standard (unspecified) purity vs UP-OCC (Ultra Pure-Ohno Continuous Cast) as well as the impact of different dielectrics (teflon vs cotton) and so I borrowed several sets of interconnects from Dave Cahoon, owner of Zenwave Audio.  Thrown into the mix was a pair of HFC CT-1E interconnects.  All were 1 meter in length except for the Blue Jeans IC which was 0.5 meters.
  

  
 Here is my methodology:
  
 As some of you are aware, I have been testing a prototype headphone device by High Fidelity Cables that magnetizes the analog headphone signal before it is sent to my headphone via my Spore4 headphone cable.  For those not aware of what this looks like, here it is sitting to the right of my DAVE:
  

  
 This is a passive device with the both RCA and 6.35mm inputs on the back:
  

  
 This has proven to be a helpful device in this comparison of various interconnects.  Here is what the setup looks like connected to various interconnects:
  


  
 Obviously, both my DHC Spore4 headphone cable and this HFC magnetic headphone device will have some impact on SQ although they were kept constant in the chain.  The only variable was the interconnect.
  
 The interconnects used were as follows and my findings are included as well:
  
 1)  Blue Jeans Cables RCA LC-1 interconnect ($30)  -  Unlike the other copper cables, these cables utilize an unspecified purity of copper but at this low price, it is undoubtedly not UP-OCC grade.  It utilizes a foamed polyetheylene dielectric designed for high flexibility and easy routing.  It produces a nice rich, thick tone -- beautiful, in fact.  Upon first listen and paired with the HFC headphone device + Spore4 headphone cable, it sounded very pleasing.  Easily a bargain at $30 and in the absence of any comparison, I could be lulled into thinking this is a very acceptable sound.  Once compared to any of the other cables, however, it became evident how slow and syrupy this cable is and how this cable keeps secrets.  This cable paints the broad strokes well but will leave you wanting when it comes to the fine details.  
  
 2)  D2 ($499) -  This is a hand-made interconnect that utilizes UP-OCC grade copper and is the purest grade of copper you can source.  It utilizes 2x Neotech 20 gauge UP-OCC cotton-insulated wire for signal and 2x Neotech 20 gauge UP-OCC cotton insulated wire for ground.  It incorporates high-quality WBT 0102 platinum-plated silver RCA plugs.  At its asking price, this cable is a steal and compares very favorably to the much more expensive Audience AU24SX that I listened to recently which lists for $1,850.  For those unfamiliar with what OCC is, it is a casting process developed to defeat annealing issues and virtually eliminates all grain boundaries using a unique patented process.  It yields a single cystal of copper (or silver) up to 125 meters in length resulting in an unimpeded free path for the best possible signal transfer.  UP-OCC (where UP stands for Ultra Pure) provides copper (or silver) with the least possible oxides and other impurities resulting in a purity of up to >99.99998% (6 nines) where standard oxygen free copper usually has a purity of only >99.99% (4 nines).  How does it compare against the Blue Jeans IC?  It shares a similar rich and pleasing tonality but is immediately smoother and considerably better resolved.  Using the same 20-second segment of Mahler's 7th (16/44) and Almost Blue by Diana Krall (16/44), there is more air around the instruments and around Diana's voice.  Consequently, details are more easily discerned.  It's almost as if I went from 320k MP3 to lossless 16/44.   
  
 3)  Duelund Silver IC ($425) - This is a unique presentation of silver in a cable developed by the late Danish legend, Steen Duelund, where a thin round silver wire is wrapped in cotton and impregnated in oil. It is said to result in a smooth silky sound with copper-like warmth yet with the resolution of silver.  I found this to be an apt description with a warm tonality somewhere between the Blue Jeans and the UP-OCC Copper IC but more resolving than either.  For those looking to tame a bright system but not wishing to compromise too much on resolution, this one is a good choice.  It doesn't have the rich full body of the Blue Jeans but it has beguiling speed and finesse.  Those wishing for a "vinyl-like" sound will probably feel most at home with this cable.  
  
 4)  D3 ($549) - This cable incorporates an alloy comprised of both silver and gold but unlike other alloys that incorporate this mixture, this Neotech product is made using the OCC method.  It is said to have the positive attributes of silver in terms of speed and resolution  but where silver can sometimes be criticized for sounding lean and bland, the gold is supposed to add more body and more accurate tone.  To my ears, this cable easily out-resolved the previous cables.  The presentation was more forward, especially compared against the Duelund Silver cable.  The speed and dynamics with this cable is just amazingly good.  The tonality is not as thick compared against the Blue Jeans but is more accurate.  The timbre of the piano on the Krall track is definitely more spot on.  My engagement with Mahler is now considerably raised.  All the players are much much better discerned and the depth of detail is unmistakably better compared to the previous cables.  
  
 5)  D4 ($1175) - This is Dave Cahoon's best cable.  While it also incorporates an alloy that combines both silver and gold using the OCC method, he commissioned Neotech to create a proprietary mixture of silver and gold for him that is not available to the public.  He refuses to divulge what this mixture is and considers it his intellectual property.  Signal wire is comprised of 4x28 guage wire per cable in a cotton dielectric.  Unlike the D3 which utilizes 18 gauge UP-OCC copper wire for ground, the D4 utilizes 6x26 gauge UP-OCC silver wire for ground.  How does it sound?  LIke the D3 but discernably better.  The gap is not as large as the D3 vs the cables before it but there is a definite upgrade in resolution.  Tone is fuller and more saturated suggesting a greater gold content.  I wouldn't call this cable warm like the copper wires nor would I call it cool or sterile.  While it has more body than the D3, it does not sound as if it comes at the compromise of speed.  If anything, there appears to be more transparency and more resolution.  Compared against the Spore4 by itself (which is made of UP-OCC silver with no gold), there is a definite increase in tonal body and richness with the D4 and perhaps the timbre is more accurate whereas the Spore4 by itself presents a more airy treble and fleetness of foot.  The Spore4 layers a bit better but the D4 has a more organic flow.  If you are a fan of DHC, as I am, you know that Peter Bradstock is not a believer in silver/gold alloy wire and in fact, he makes fun of it on his website.  Having now heard it and directly compared it, there is a real argument for this mixture.  In the end, it comes down to personal preference but I actually very much prefer the combination of D4 > HFC magnetic device > Silver Spore4 over the Silver Spore4 by itself.  
  
 6)  HFC CT-1E ($2800) - Those of you who have followed my posts know that I have a bias for HFC cables and I will readily admit it.  I just like what this magnetic technology does and nothing I have heard has come close to matching it.  I actually own a higher end CT-1UR interconnect that retails for $8900 (that I was able to find used at a considerable bargain) that blows this one away but I went with the lower end CT-1E so that the comparison would be on a more even footing.  How does it compare?  Trying to be objective, it is _easily _the most resolving of all of the cables and very easily discerned on blind testing.  The level of clarity is just at another level.  The timbre of the piano in the Krall track is the most convincing yet.  The decay is the most natural where it lingers when it is supposed to linger and rapidly dissipates when there shouldn't be any overhang.  The treble has a sparkle to it but yet it isn't bright and never harsh.  As for the Mahler track, the players are solidly in position on the soundstage and you have a much more confident sense of what instruments are playing.  The speed of this cable is just amazing.  
  
 This comparison has led me to be curious about other very expensive cables like the Transparent Magnus Opus, the cable of choice for many dCS and MSB owners.  The top end Magnus Opus RCA interconnects can sell for up to $35k a pair.  Having spoken to a Transparent dealer at length, it was interesting to find that as you go up the chain from Reference to the XL to the Opus and then the Magnum Opus, the main difference has more to do with improved mechanical resonance control and build quality.  With the top end Magnus Opus, the cables are custom built and tuned to match the electronic and physical details of the components used and the listening environment.  Transparent even comes to your home and performs the termination soldering on site.  According to the dealer, as you go up the chain from the Gen 5 Ultra to Magnus Opus, the tonality doesn't change although control, low-frequency articulation and depth improves.  Of interest, Transparent prefers the tonality of copper and made a conscious choice to avoid silver in any of their cables.
  
 Having directly compared the resolving ability of the purest form of copper vs silver, to my ears, it's no contest.  Which tonality you prefer is a matter of personal preference but when it comes to resolution, silver easily wins.  What is enlightening about this comparison is that the DAVE revealed the differences so easily, something that I doubt I could have so easily discerned with my previous systems.  Here is proof.  As I often do, especially when I'm not sure I can really hear a difference, I resort to blind testing.  In this exercise, this was easy to perform and my wife was able to swap cables within a matter of 30 seconds.  When I typically blind test different components, I usually do an A/B comparison.  When I feel the differences are quite obvious, I might even do an A/B/C comparison but never before have I done an A/B/C/D/E/F/G comparison.  That's right, instead of comparing only 2 cables against each other at a time, I blindly compared all 6 cables against each other at the same time.  My wife started with one cable of her choosing and I wrote down certain characteristics after listening to 20-second snippets of 2 different tracks.  Beside these snippets, I would jot down which cable I thought I was listening to.  She would then move on to the next cable and the next until I heard all 6 cables.  There were a couple of instances when I thought I was listening to a certain cable only to change my mind after hearing the next cable and I allowed myself this prerogative.  At the end, I scored 100%.  While some would suggest I have some magical golden ear, I would suggest that I'm not that good.  The better explanation is that the DAVE is that good, that it could differentiate the characteristics of different cables this well.  With the Blue Jeans Cable, would I be able to differentiate the DAVE against the Mojo?  I highly doubt it.  Could I do it with the HFC CT-1E or even the Zenwave D4, I'm pretty sure I could and I suspect you could, too.  With the DAVE, do cables matter?  Absolutely.


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## TheAttorney

Another very informative and thought provoking comparison romaz.
  
 Whilst I don't doubt that the downstream cables matter most for DAVE, I also feel that the upstream cables can also have an effect, at least for the optical and USB cables I've tried. I'll try to quantify that at a later date - too many other changes to my system for me to be conclusive about this.


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## TheAttorney

x relic x said:


> Am I missing something or does that 'review' only show that the iFi power supply sucks?


 
  
 The iFi power supply does _not_ suck. It is a perfectly acceptable entry point to the microRendu world - that has given me the best input so far into my DAVE.
  
 It is no surprise that bigger power supplies (that cost multiple times more than the iFi) will give further improvements. But, at less cost than a typical audiophile fuse, the iFi will give a fair taste of better things to come.
 Of course, there are many variables with the incoming mains quality that could give different results for different people.
  
 In theory, the upcoming LPS-1 should be largely independent of the upstream power supply. So in theory, the iFi may end up being effectively as good as a mega bucks power supply - in terms of feeding the LPS-1. I suspect it won't be quite as simple as that, because nothing is perfect, but nothing is proven yet.  
  
 Until that point, the iFi is a reasonable low cost way of waiting for the LPS-1 situation to pan out


----------



## EVOLVIST

rob watts said:


> OK, just to clarify, as the issue of -350 dB performance has created some confusion. This is the *digital* performance of the noise shaper. And to do this I set up a Verilog simulator test; you supply the Verilog noise shaper module (this is the actual design of the noise shaper, coded in Verilog which is a way of creating digital logic using coding) together with some data as the input, then the simulator runs the test and records the output data. I then take this output data and do FFT's on it, which are the results I published before. Now although the term simulation is used, it is completely exact - you feed the noise shaper this data, the output is guaranteed to be that output. So it is a perfect measurement of the digital performance of the noise shaper. But of course, it is only the digital domain performance - in reality the DAC actual analogue outputs will be very much worse than this.
> 
> So why is 350 dB performance important?
> 
> ...




Thanks, Rob. I'm sure I'll probably look back one day on my lack of knowledge and laugh.

I love the DAVE. I have to work out a few transport issues, but other than that I'm listening and learning, but above all enjoying the music.


----------



## Beolab

Spoiler: Quoted post






romaz said:


> As many that follow this thread know, there have been comments made recently about how little difference certain people found with the DAVE compared to another DAC.  This has led me to wonder if this is because expectations were unrealistic or because a person's system wasn't resolving enough?  You could also consider the possibility that a certain person doesn't have a discerning enough ear but I'm less inclined to believe this as even my non-audiophile wife can easily discern between the DAVE and any other DAC I have had in my home for testing.
> 
> As someone recently reminded me, I had posted once that what is connected _after_ the DAVE can make a bigger difference than what is connected _before_ the DAVE and I continue to believe that this is true.  While the DAVE is the most resolving source I have ever experienced, speakers and headphones still make a bigger difference.  While there are some who can't readily appreciate the differences between DACs, I don't believe anyone would have trouble differentiating between the HD800, HE-1000, LCD-3 or Abyss in a blind test.
> 
> ...





  
 Great review Roy!
  
 And the winner is ?


----------



## EVOLVIST

beolab said:


> Great review Roy!
> 
> And the winner is ?


----------



## pkcpga

romaz said:


> As many that follow this thread know, there have been comments made recently about how little difference certain people found with the DAVE compared to another DAC.  This has led me to wonder if this is because expectations were unrealistic or because a person's system wasn't resolving enough?  You could also consider the possibility that a certain person doesn't have a discerning enough ear but I'm less inclined to believe this as even my non-audiophile wife can easily discern between the DAVE and any other DAC I have had in my home for testing.
> 
> As someone recently reminded me, I had posted once that what is connected _after_ the DAVE can make a bigger difference than what is connected _before_ the DAVE and I continue to believe that this is true.  While the DAVE is the most resolving source I have ever experienced, speakers and headphones still make a bigger difference.  While there are some who can't readily appreciate the differences between DACs, I don't believe anyone would have trouble differentiating between the HD800, HE-1000, LCD-3 or Abyss in a blind test.
> 
> ...



I completely agree the Dave is very transparent and I immediately noticed the difference with nordost cables and decided to switch all my cabling to nordost from speaker wires to interconnects. I might have spent the cost of the Dave all over again but there's definitely a very noticable difference, not as great as switching to the Dave but still worth it for myself.


----------



## rgs9200m

For interconnects, Stealth Indras and Sakras are excellent from my experiments. The bass is extremely clear, and the upper highs are filled out to remove hardness but leave a great silky shimmer.
 There is a sense of calmness and authority that is unique. It just relaxes things but leaves everything sound intact. I didn't even think cables could do this.
  
 Also, any kind of intermediate thingy, even an adapter can really mess up a cable I have found. Only a direct connection will do.
 I did a lot of A/B testing years ago with top cables from big names like Nordost, Kimber, Audioquest, Transparent and more, and the Stealth was just plain special. 
  
 Expensive, but an interconnect for life. (I joke that, when you get old, you can use them for a retirement fund.) If you have not heard these in your own system, you do not know what you are missing.
 If you can afford a Dave and high-end phones, perhaps you could set aside some funds for these.
  
 Way back in 2005, I used to converse with a fellow who was a doctor who had a really expensive system (speaker based), and  I would email back and forth with him frequently and one day I mentioned I liked 
 this or that particular interconnect and he said just stop, stop. Get a Stealth Indra. This is it. 
 So I took his suggestion, tried one, and I was a believer. I never went back, except to try a Sakra, which can be even better, more calmness for any sense of digital brightness.
  
 They show up used regularly (not here much, usually on the speaker-based audiophile sites), so there are some deals on them.


----------



## x RELIC x

theattorney said:


> The iFi power supply does _not_ suck. It is a perfectly acceptable entry point to the microRendu world - that has given me the best input so far into my DAVE.
> 
> It is no surprise that bigger power supplies (that cost multiple times more than the iFi) will give further improvements. But, at less cost than a typical audiophile fuse, the iFi will give a fair taste of better things to come.
> Of course, there are many variables with the incoming mains quality that could give different results for different people.
> ...




Perhaps I could have worded my post differently. Essentially that 'review' of the uRendu basically only showed measurements that indicated the iFi iPower produced the most noise with the uRendu in the measurements. Everything else was a wash, so it's not really a 'review' of the uRendu, and therefore my comment about the validity of the 'review'. I haven't heard the iPower so I really have no comment on it specifically.


----------



## Christer

Spoiler: Quoted post






romaz said:


> As many that follow this thread know, there have been comments made recently about how little difference certain people found with the DAVE compared to another DAC.  This has led me to wonder if this is because expectations were unrealistic or because a person's system wasn't resolving enough?  You could also consider the possibility that a certain person doesn't have a discerning enough ear but I'm less inclined to believe this as even my non-audiophile wife can easily discern between the DAVE and any other DAC I have had in my home for testing.
> 
> As someone recently reminded me, I had posted once that what is connected _after_ the DAVE can make a bigger difference than what is connected _before_ the DAVE and I continue to believe that this is true.  While the DAVE is the most resolving source I have ever experienced, speakers and headphones still make a bigger difference.  While there are some who can't readily appreciate the differences between DACs, I don't believe anyone would have trouble differentiating between the HD800, HE-1000, LCD-3 or Abyss in a blind test.
> 
> ...





 
 Have you tried any Chord rca cables with DAVE?
 One might assume that Chord cables would work well with chord dacs?
 I use Chord Indigo Blue and  Audioquest Columbia  which I use with my Hugo or my  Benchmark .
 I am not sure the Audioquest are actually the columbia but they have a little battery box that maybe is supposed to do a similar job as some of the stuff you have mentioned ,ie electromagnetic ,isolation conduction or whatever.
 Anyway they sound very different indeed.
 With some recordings I prefer one over the other.
 It varies very much depending on DAC/recording used which cable  I connect.
 and also whether I connect directly to poweramp or via pre or not. I can make any recording sound at least 8 different ways both via headphones and speakers.
 The DAC is just one  of several spicings and variables in any system.
 What does your magic box  add to the equation compared to connecting your headphones directly to the DAVE ?
 Is it available on the market?
 Personally I would recommend people interested in the highest possible transparency via both speakers and headphones to audition  electrostatic headphones and speakers.
 They are imho the most transparent least colored on the market.
 I have yet to hear  traditional box speakers that are as open and free of distortions and deliver such a believable coherent soundstage as electrostatic speakers.


----------



## miketlse

christer said:


> Have you tried any Chord rca cables with DAVE?
> One might assume that Chord cables would work well with chord dacs?


 
  
 Your assumption would be wrong.
 Chord cables and Chord electronics are two completely separate companies, but people often mistakenly assume they are connected.


----------



## pkcpga

christer said:


> Have you tried any Chord rca cables with DAVE?
> One might assume that Chord cables would work well with chord dacs?
> I use Chord Indigo Blue and  Audioquest Columbia  which I use with my Hugo or my  Benchmark .
> They sound very diffferent indeed.
> ...




I think everyone has a personal taste, for me electrostatic speakers give me a headache very quickly. I have nautilus speakers and find they do a great job reproducing sound without the constant for a better term "hiss" sound. I've tried speakers upwards of $70k. I may just have sensitive ears but for some reason electrostatic speakers never start with a black background and this bothers me.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

Would someone with the equipment and ability please be able to volume match a HD800 and Abyss on the DAVE?  For example, -32 on the HD800 is the same at -27 on the Abyss.  I would really appreciate it.
  
 I would like to do some A/Bing but my volume matching is quite subjective.


----------



## Christer

pkcpga said:


> I think everyone has a personal taste, for me electrostatic speakers give me a headache very quickly. I have nautilus speakers and find they do a great job reproducing sound without the constant for a better term "hiss" sound. I've tried speakers upwards of $70k. I may just have sensitive ears but for some reason electrostatic speakers never start with a black background and this bothers me.


 

 Hmm, are you sure that you are not hearing the hiss from your amp or DAC?
 I just went over to my electrostatic speakers turned up to full volume on my 900 watts per channel amp and heard a faint hiss with my ears close to the panels. But almost  silence at  about half tilt which is  the max volume setting I ever  need to use.
 And at the six meters  distance I usually listen from I hear no hiss from my speakers or amp on the best digital recordings.
 B&W Nautilus are very good speakers imo too. But I prefer the greater height of my taller  than myself ,electrostatics where I can listen standing  and conducting along for hours without any signs of a  headache whatsoever provided the recording doesn´t induce any listening fatique.
 But quite a few of the diamond tweeter box speakers can sound tiring  after a while to me and not even the TAD Reference sounded as realistic on strings as electrostatic speakers imho.
 I just listened to Debussy´s magic  Opera Pelleas and Melisande for hours on LPs today and felt refreshed and enriched by the experience.
 Ok there was some hiss but that came from the LPs not the speakers.
 Last week I spent 15 hours listening to  Wagner´s operas  Der Ring des Nibelungen.
 Hypnotizing and  eargasmic and with a large lifelike soundstage that box speakers just don´t deliver inho.


----------



## Jawed

romaz said:


> With the Blue Jeans Cable, would I be able to differentiate the DAVE against the Mojo?  I highly doubt it.



Honestly, I think that's hyperbole.


----------



## Christer

miketlse said:


> Your assumption would be wrong.
> Chord cables and Chord electronics are two completely separate companies, but people often mistakenly assume they are connected.


 

 Ok that probably partly  explains why the Chord Indigo blue fits really badly on little Hugo.
 I have to tape it in place and put dumbells as weights on Hugo to get a hum free connection from it. A real PIA.
  My Audioquest fits as a glove though and just needs a slight push to sound well and humfree.


----------



## miketlse

christer said:


> Ok that probably partly  explains why the Chord Indigo blue fits really badly on little Hugo.
> I have to tape it in place and put dumbells as weights on Hugo to get a hum free connection from it. A real PIA.
> My Audioquest fits as a glove though and just needs a slight push to sound well and humfree.


 
  
 I think that there were issues with connecting cables to the early Hugos, and that Chord ensured that there was more space for inserting plugs on the later production batches.
 Is your Hugo from one of the initial batches?
 I agree it must be PIA - I wouldn't like to have similar issues with any equipment.


----------



## romaz

jawed said:


> Honestly, I think that's hyperbole.


 
 Never having directly A/B'd the DAVE against the Mojo, I was only speculating when I made that comment but as someone has already indicated they couldn't discern much difference between the DAVE and Mojo, I believe a poorly resolving cable could easily explain why.  I realize there are many who don't think cables are worth investing in and that's fine.  I was that way once.


----------



## romaz

bigfatpaulie said:


> Would someone with the equipment and ability please be able to volume match a HD800 and Abyss on the DAVE?  For example, -32 on the HD800 is the same at -27 on the Abyss.  I would really appreciate it.
> 
> I would like to do some A/Bing but my volume matching is quite subjective.


 
 Paul, download the SPL meter app for your smartphone.  That way, there's no guessing.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

romaz said:


> Paul, download the SPL meter app for your smartphone.  That way, there's no guessing.


 
  
 That's a brilliant idea!!  Thank you - it would never have dawned on me.


----------



## Jawed

romaz said:


> Never having directly A/B'd the DAVE against the Mojo, I was only speculating when I made that comment but as someone has already indicated they couldn't discern much difference between the DAVE and Mojo, I believe a poorly resolving cable could easily explain why.  I realize there are many who don't think cables are worth investing in and that's fine.  I was that way once.



I'm not a cable sceptic. I've paid attention to them for decades.

On the other hand, I don't merely think you're exaggerating your position, I expect you can distinguish Mojo and DAVE with the worst cables you can find.


----------



## kennyb123

theattorney said:


> The iFi power supply does _not_ suck. It is a perfectly acceptable entry point to the microRendu world - that has given me the best input so far into my DAVE.


 
  
 iFi's response to Amir's post:
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f30-abbingdon-music-research-ifi-audio-sponsored/measuring-ipower-much-ado-about-nothing-part-4-uploaded-and-complete-28982/


----------



## x RELIC x

bigfatpaulie said:


> That's a brilliant idea!!  Thank you - it would never have dawned on me.




If I can make a suggestion, you should cover the earpad while the smartphone mic is pointed at the driver. You get different readings with a sealed cup vs open cup.

See below. I use a stiff thick foam with a cutout for my iPhone 5S.





Apologies for the terrible iPad pics.


----------



## romaz

jawed said:


> I expect you can distinguish Mojo and DAVE with the worst cables you can find.


 
 You could be right.  Maybe it's time to find out...


----------



## bigfatpaulie

x relic x said:


> If I can make a suggestion, you should cover the earpad while the smartphone mic is pointed at the driver. You get different readings with a sealed cup vs open cup.
> 
> See below. I use a stiff thick foam with a cutout for my iPhone 5S.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Thanks!  Although, I am not sure I follow.  In your photos the ear pads seems to be "open" - or are the photos for illustrative purposes only?


----------



## x RELIC x

bigfatpaulie said:


> Thanks!  Although, I am not sure I follow.  In your photos the ear pads seems to be "open" - or are the photos for illustrative purposes only?




The first pic is with the foam entirely covering the ear side of the left ear cup with the iPhone mic pointed straight at the driver. The left earpad is completely sealed beneath the foam. The right side is open and not being measured in the first pic. 

The second pic is just to illustrate how the iPhone is poking through the foam.

The first pic was quite the balancing act keeping the foam balanced on the left earpad and holding the headphones up with one hand, while taking a picture with the larger iPad Pro in the other hand, all the while having the DAVE in the background.


Edit: This pic will illustrate it better. Again, I'm just measuring the left earcup here.


----------



## paulkwan

I've my DAVE for about 3 weeks now, besides the wonder sounds, I've 2 question for the unit :
  
 1. the display will blink sometimes, where it will off for about half sec, then resume.  This often happens within the first few min of power on (I use the power button), and then randomly later on.  Maybe at ~  once in a few hours.  Is this normal happens to you guys too ?
  
 2. I find my remote unit has a few button not work.  Actually only the MUTE, LINE+, LINE- is ok, POWER button and MENU button not work and can't use it for standy by and config the unit.  I've use my mobile cam to watch the LED at the top and it has signal when I press the POWER button, so I wonder it was not programmed correctly.  Even worse, I just try to reset the remote follow the remote menu, and now seems only the MUTE still works, all other function is gone.  Anyway I can fix it ?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

x relic x said:


> The first pic is with the foam entirely covering the ear side of the left ear cup with the iPhone mic pointed straight at the driver. The left earpad is completely sealed beneath the foam. The right side is open and not being measured in the first pic.
> 
> The second pic is just to illustrate how the iPhone is poking through the foam.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 That makes sense: thank you!!!


----------



## Rob Watts

romaz said:


> Never having directly A/B'd the DAVE against the Mojo, I was only speculating when I made that comment but as someone has already indicated they couldn't discern much difference between the DAVE and Mojo, I believe a poorly resolving cable could easily explain why.  I realize there are many who don't think cables are worth investing in and that's fine.  I was that way once.


 
 I run three systems with Dave - headphone, speakers and office speakers that are transportable and I take these small low cost speakers with me to hotels. This system is not audiophile, but you can hear the effect of Dave vs. Mojo easily. You can easily hear the depth changes for example.
  
 Having said that, many times I have done a dem with Dave, and put one into an existing system. Nine times out of ten, it works perfectly, and the sound-stage is relatively cavernous and its musical. But every once in a while it sounds like Dave is not present; it is hard and very flat. Normally, this can be solved with system set-up - for example I did a dealer/press event on Monday in Germany. Plugged Dave in with speakers that I had not heard before and it sounded dreadful - flat and hard with a loose and soft bass. The room was not kind either. But spending a few hours working on it we got the system to work - Dave was now present. Rarely, it just won't work - Dave can't make a fundamentally flawed system work.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

paulkwan said:


> I've my DAVE for about 3 weeks now, besides the wonder sounds, I've 2 question for the unit :
> 
> 1. the display will blink sometimes, where it will off for about half sec, then resume.  This often happens within the first few min of power on (I use the power button), and then randomly later on.  Maybe at ~  once in a few hours.  Is this normal happens to you guys too ?
> 
> ...


 
 Yes the memory blanking is normal - its because when writing the config settings to the flash memory you can't read at the same time, so I have to blank the display. Oddly, I find it useful as it tells me the current settings have been written to memory.
  
 I don't understand the remote issue, your dealer will be able to sort that out for you.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

sunya said:


> The question is how small can be the smallest signal encoded in a 24 bit file; leaving aside the noise level of mic preamps, the best studio AD converters have a dynamic range not greater than 21-22 bits. So if the smallest signal would theoretically be at -130dB how come the DAC's noise shaper performance needs to go down to -350dB? Is this overhead needed for the noise shaper to work properly on -130dB signals?


 
  
 You have exposed the problem, and frankly I have struggled with this issue of depth and needing 350 dB noise shapers. Because it does not make sense. Do we need digital modules capable of accurately resolving -301 dB (that's my tests now for all modules) because the brain can perceive -301 dB signals? Or is it because if a system is capable of resolving -301 it will resolve -120 dB signals more accurately?
  
 The honest answer is I don't know for sure, but it strikes me as being absurd that the brain could (through correlation) need -301 dB signals.
  
 Now *in principle* a properly dithered digital system is capable of reproducing infinitely small signals - its just buried in the noise. But modern ADC's just aren't capable of resolving very small signals, as they employ 140 dB noise shapers. Which also then asks the question of how is it that Dave can improve depth reproduction when my existing noise shapers pre Dave were much better than modern ADC's?
  
 I suspect the issue is really about how accurately -120 dB signals are being reproduced. When you look at small signals as they approach the resolving limit of the noise shaper, then the signal becomes attenuated. You can see this with fundamental linearity measurements, and easily with simulation. So a -120 db signal with a -160 dB limit, will have an attenuation of -0.087 dB - so the -120 dB becomes -120.087 dB. Now with 200 dB resolving noise shaper we would be looking at 0.0008 dB error - something you could not measure in reality. With 300 dB it drops to -0.00000008.
 At 340 it would be  -0.0000000008 dB error.
  
 Now I could (maybe) be persuaded that a 200dB noise shaper (0.0008 dB at limits of measuring) going to 300 dB (0.00000008) could be audible. But 300 dB (0.00000008) going to 340 dB (0.0000000008) that is surely inaudible? But with careful listening I can indeed perceive the change, and I have severe difficulty understanding why depth perception is so sensitive to small errors.
  
 Perhaps I am wrong, and that there is something else going on with noise shapers - but even purely digital noise shapers (say when you are going from 54 bits down to 24 bits internally to the FPGA) have this effect. I can only go on what the evidence follows me, even if it suggests that impossibly small errors are important.
  
 What is very exciting is if we can hear such changes with poor ADC noise shapers, than imagine the changes we will hear with Davina that has 350 dB noise shapers. Perhaps we will crack the issue of actually perceiving things that are 100 m away sounding like they are actually 100 m away - that will be something.
  
 Rob


----------



## raypin

Mmm......blinking display too. Odd was my first thought. I've never had a blinking amp/dac before. Thanks for confirming that it is normal.


----------



## Christer

romaz said:


> You could be right.  Maybe it's time to find out...


 

 It would really surprise me if you don´t hear any differences between Dave and Mojo.
 The differences via headphones direct were immediately obvious  to me between DAVE, HUGO AND MOJO. And I would rate them in that order  with HD 800 and Sennheiser´s original  cable which I now  generally prefer over a much more expensive silver cable I also own.
 But it would be interesting to know what sounds best to you headphones direct on Dave, or via the little box in your pics?


----------



## rgs9200m

I would like to know how Dave sounds on redbook (16/44) digital  (or anything that isn't DSD actually)  compared to SACD on a high end cd player if anyone is familiar with both.
 I love how my TT sounds with redbook, but EMM with SACD to my ears is just in a class by itself, amazing and wonderful and every darn superlative adjective I could throw at it.
 Detail, lack of digital glare, rich texturing micro-level image definition and staging, transparency, bass depth, lack of fatigue, super-organic sweet silky vocals, and more, it's all there.
 It's much better than vinyl because of the extra detail and fine texture and insight.
  
 (Everytime I hear the opinion that it's all in the mastering technique, not the fact that it's SACD, I go listen to any SACD on my EMM and I just shake my head and just say no to myself. To me SACD is magic,
 which is a pain since I have to fuss old-school-like with real discs. But that's the way it is for me.)
  
 I know there is a frequent poster here who is into the Stones, and I really wish he could spend some time with the glorious Abkco SACDs of them on high end SACD player in a good system, because
 it sounds like a transcendent experience to me.
  
 If Dave does this, well, then I need to save up while for one eventually.


----------



## paulkwan

rob watts said:


> Yes the memory blanking is normal - its because when writing the config settings to the flash memory you can't read at the same time, so I have to blank the display. Oddly, I find it useful as it tells me the current settings have been written to memory.
> 
> I don't understand the remote issue, your dealer will be able to sort that out for you.
> 
> Rob


 
 Thx Rob for adv, the blanking does not has any effect on the music playing, which is happening after the initialization period of ~20 sec which it boot up.  So I just feel little strange and worry.
  
 For the remote control issue, the POWER button can't put the DAC to stand by, and I've use below method to check the LED has signal sending out when I press that button, therefore I wonder some buttons are not program correctly and send out wrong signal where DAVE not understand.  Anyway I'm asking my dealer for help.  Thanks.
  
 https://youtu.be/UMPoifERrNs


----------



## Crgreen

I'm afraid the remote for the DAVE doesn't do half the things it's supposed to, according to the manual. I'm rather surprised that Chord allowed the remote to ship, and that the problems have not been remedied. When you've spent close to 8 grand on a product, you'd expect the remote to work properly.


----------



## TheAttorney

I've criticized the remote functions in the past - particularly anything to do with scrolling through the menu functions, which simply are not fit for purpose.  
 However, the power button does work for me to put DAVE in and out of standby. Also the volume, mute and input selection do work.


----------



## x RELIC x

If headphones are plugged in you can't access the setup menus. To change things like display type the headphones need to be unplugged. I wonder if this is partially to blame some reported loss of functionality.

I do wonder why such a large remote with so many buttons not accessible was chosen.


----------



## ubs28

Why can't I use the output to an amplifier and the headphone output at the same time?

It also looks like the Chord Dave was designed to be as a real DAC while the Chord Hugo was more in mind for headphones since you can connect so many headphones at once.


----------



## TheAttorney

To be fair, Chord is not the only one that suffers from a single remote trying to control all the components in the family (Jack of all trades, master of none). 
 My Nagra remote was almost as bad at directly controlling just one component, but didn't have the menu scrolling issue - have I mentioned how bad that is yet?
  
 In the end, it's not such a big deal for me, as headphone users have less need for a remote control than loudspeaker users. The only part that continues to bug me is not being able to directly switch phase polarity - on either the main unit or remote control.
  
@ubs28, I don't think it's unreasonable for the headphones plug insertion to disable the line out function. Most other designs do the same.


----------



## Crgreen

I can't access the setup functions using the remote even with no headphones. Are there some magic words one has to speak?


----------



## paulkwan

crgreen said:


> I can't access the setup functions using the remote even with no headphones. Are there some magic words one has to speak?




Me too. 
MENU button (for setup) not work, mine has POWER button fail too, so can never go stand by.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Given the speed and dynamics, improved transient correctness and additional detail that DAVE delivers, it is not surprising to me that top-end headphone users were among the first and most numerous of audiophiles proclaiming DAVE as a meaningful step up in musical presentation. As top end headphones tend to knock 90+% of speakers out of the ball park I have been investigating types of speaker which could perhaps do justice to DAVE's attributes. Electrostatics spring to mind but my experience of electrostatics is that, whilst very detailed and fast they lack the weight (palpability) of the percussive nature of instruments and voices. A dome tweeter/cone mid combination has no such problem but lacks the speed of an electrostatic, so some of the detail is lost. I just wondered if anyone here has tried mating a pair of Piega Coax speakers to DAVE?

I haven't yet tried this combination but the attributes of a coax ribbon tweeter/mid combination covering down to 400hz before the woofers kick in would seem to me (based upon what I have read) to be potentially a good match for DAVE, given the speed and detail generally inherent in ribbon tweeters. I hadn't even heard of Piega until a couple of weeks ago when they announced an intention to come to the UK tbh.

Anyway, if anyone has tried out a Piega Coax/Dave combination I would be very interested to hear your impressions.


----------



## pkcpga

daveredref-iii said:


> Given the speed and dynamics, improved transient correctness and additional detail that DAVE delivers, it is not surprising to me that top-end headphone users were among the first and most numerous of audiophiles proclaiming DAVE as a meaningful step up in musical presentation. As top end headphones tend to knock 90+% of speakers out of the ball park I have been investigating types of speaker which could perhaps do justice to DAVE's attributes. Electrostatics spring to mind but my experience of electrostatics is that, whilst very detailed and fast they lack the weight (palpability) of the percussive nature of instruments and voices. A dome tweeter/cone mid combination has no such problem but lacks the speed of an electrostatic, so some of the detail is lost. I just wondered if anyone here has tried mating a pair of Piega Coax speakers to DAVE?
> 
> I haven't yet tried this combination but the attributes of a coax ribbon tweeter/mid combination covering down to 400hz before the woofers kick in would seem to me (based upon what I have read) to be potentially a good match for DAVE, given the speed and detail generally inherent in ribbon tweeters. I hadn't even heard of Piega until a couple of weeks ago when they announced an intention to come to the UK tbh.
> 
> Anyway, if anyone has tried out a Piega Coax/Dave combination I would be very interested to hear your impressions.




There are very few dealers that carry piega still, I've only heard the master line 2 speaker, which was a nice airy sounding speaker with great detail but lacked some of the fullness in sound of my nautilus speakers. I know in Switzerland and Germany they have a large showrooms but it seems many other countries your lucky if a dealer has a few low end products and one of their master series.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks pkcpga

I think they say they deal in 38 countries on the website. From some of the reviews they obviously have an EU presence having sold more than 100,000 speakers according to one review I read. If so someone must have a pair!


----------



## Hubert H

Paulkwan, Crgreen,
  
 My remote works fine, I think it's actually a re-branded Arcam remote...
  
 Anyway, make sure that the 'hifi' button is pressed first. I can then access the set-up options via the menu button and cycle/change settings using the volume and line buttons. Can't change the PCM/DSD setting though despite it being highlighted on the DAC. Muting and putting Dave into standby also works as well as waking it up again. I can only confirm this without headphones although I assume there to be no difference with headphones plugged in.
  
 As far as screen blanking goes, it's always a number of seconds after a change of state with the DAC, volume or input etc, as it then writes current settings to memory.
  
 H.


----------



## Hubert H

daveredref-iii said:


> Anyway, if anyone has tried out a Piega Coax/Dave combination I would be very interested to hear your impressions.


 
 Have you listened to Wilson Benesch? I've found them to be as true to source as any speaker I've heard, absence of the sound of the cabinet and a bass that's not over emphasised/exaggerated/laggy, minimal crossover (mid-range connected directly) and reasonably discreet.
  
 Further improved in the new Geometry series.
  
 Not cheap though...
  
 H.


----------



## Hubert H

hubert h said:


> Paulkwan, Crgreen,
> 
> My remote works fine, I think it's actually a re-branded Arcam remote...


 
 Just tried with a my phone headset, using an adaptor 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, and the remote works in headphone mode too. Also, the menu button returns to the last highlighted option so switching between values is fairly easy.
  
 The memory writing (screen blanking) does kick one out of the menu though...
  
 H.


----------



## analogmusic

Hello Rob
  
 Which laptop do you use when you play music on your own Dave?
  
 I guess you use it while on battery power (I recall reading?)
  
 Which software player do you use?
  
 Thanks


----------



## Rob Watts

It depends. At the office and on planes I use a HP pavilion - its low power, but also does HD video natively. Whilst on the road in hotel rooms it is my design lap-top which is a MSI 17 inch i7 machine with 16GB. For the main system its the HP and run in battery mode.
  
 I use J River 21, I need to update to 22. With Mojo ASIO seems to be a bit better rather than WASAPI; actually I intend to do a test with Dave of ASIO against WASAPI later this week.
  
 Rob


----------



## AndrewOld

rob watts said:


> It depends. At the office and on planes I use a HP pavilion - its low power, but also does HD video natively. Whilst on the road in hotel rooms it is my design lap-top which is a MSI 17 inch i7 machine with 16GB. For the main system its the HP and run in battery mode.
> 
> I use J River 21, I need to update to 22. With Mojo ASIO seems to be a bit better rather than WASAPI; actually I intend to do a test with Dave of ASIO against WASAPI later this week.
> 
> Rob


 

 Interested to hear the results of your test of ASIO vs WASAPI with DAVE and JRiver, I've just left mine on ASIO to use the Chord driver .. though I have to say that my DAVE is so involving that I find it quite hard to critically detach myself from the music to do comparisons - all I want to do is listen to the music! But if you are fiddling with JRiver you might also want to play with the "Play files from memory instead of disc" and the new "Load files to memory at the start of playback" features ... though tbh I would hope that none of these things made the slightest difference.


----------



## pkcpga

hubert h said:


> Have you listened to Wilson Benesch? I've found them to be as true to source as any speaker I've heard, absence of the sound of the cabinet and a bass that's not over emphasised/exaggerated/laggy, minimal crossover (mid-range connected directly) and reasonably discreet.
> 
> Further improved in the new Geometry series.
> 
> ...




Which one did you listen to? I listened to the ACT one evolution P1 and it's very high on my list of possible replacements for my older nautilus speakers. The carbon fiber look isn't my favorite and they're a bit picky with powering and are power hungry. But they do sound very impressive for their price, they are expensive but not insane.


----------



## pkcpga

If you have no budget restraints my favorite speaker so far was the lansche No 7 but it's into the 6 figures. It has a very impressive plasma tweeter with two voice drivers per speaker. Most life like speaker I've heard including any similar priced electrostatic.


----------



## EVOLVIST

This Chord DAVE we've been talking about? It's really, really good. Sometimes I can't believe what I'm hearing. 

So, I purchased this thing called a SonicTransport i5, and this microRendu thingy. There supposed to send it to me in the mail. I've heard some people say that it's the best transport system, period. Period?


----------



## Hubert H

I have not listened to the Geometry series because I prefer to remain in ignorance sometimes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I currently have the ACT, had the original ACT 1 and then the ACT 2, so over 15 years of Benesch speakers with each iteration being a clear improvement. The ACT One Evolution's look to be a good speaker for for relatively small room such as mine though. They do need a bit of oomph to drive well but the later ones are an easier load, it's still a case of quality over quantity though.
  
 I feel a yearning coming on, especially as the Dave has allowed me to re-focus on the connected electronics.
  
 H.


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> This Chord DAVE we've been talking about? It's really, really good. Sometimes I can't believe what I'm hearing.
> 
> So, I purchased this thing called a SonicTransport i5, and this microRendu thingy. There supposed to send it to me in the mail. I've heard some people say that it's the best transport system, period. Period?


 
 Since you have it coming already, give it a go and tell us what you think.  I have a sonicTransporter but I gave it up and moved back to my Mac when I figured out Roon > HQPlayer with no upsampling  > microRendu > DAVE was another significant step up.  Any day now, the LPS-1 power supply will be released and I am expecting it to further elevate the mR all the more without breaking the bank.  Considering how reasonable all of this costs, it's worth a trial.  A version of HQPlayer exists for Linux but it's unclear if the i5 sonicTransporter is powerful enough to run it (I suspect it is if you don't use it to oversample).  Andrew Gillis sells an i7 version of the sonicTransporter that he preconfigures with Roon and HQPlayer and I'm sure he would allow you to swap up if that's what you want to do.
  
 Another reason to consider HQPlayer is for EQ purposes, a benefit that JaZZ finally woke me up to and I'm moving forward with it for both headphones and speakers.  Roon has no EQ but HQPlayer allows the option of 3rd party DSP.  Of course, you could also use JRiver and its EQ with your microRendu as another good option although you can't stream Tidal this way, a dealbreaker for me.
  
 The beauty of the microRendu for me is that it matches the DAVE's feature set.  It does PCM to 768kHz and DSD512.  It is the best USB player I have yet encountered and the DAVE is the best USB DAC I have yet encountered.  It is as portable as the DAVE should you wish to travel.  It can be run off batteries and so you don't have to worry about ground issues like you would with almost any other server except a battery powered laptop.  In this way, it is as good as an optical connection.  If you use a Mac and microRendu's ShairPort mode, you can play everything you have on your Mac including Spotify, YouTube, Netflix, etc. via your microRendu instead of the optical connection and I can confirm this sounds considerably better.  
  
 Lastly, I now have Sonore and Chord talking and the path for native DSD playback between microRendu and DAVE has been spelled out.  Matt at Chord has much on his plate but he has expressed an openness to tackling this at some point in the future.  I cannot say enough good things about the people at Chord!  Anyway, I consider the DAVE and microRendu a match made in heaven.


----------



## EVOLVIST

@Romaz, like what music on Tidal? What artists? The reason that I'm asking - and I'm not trying to be untoward - but I know that the great majority of music on Tidal, and really most streaming services, is not conducive to critical listening, especially on a masterpiece such as DAVE.

Now, I'm not talking about the genre of music, nor the style, nor even if the recording is lo-fi, hifi, or somewhere in the middle. I'm speaking of the loss of dynamics in modern mastering and recordings which makes it next to impossible for the mind to assimilate the subtle cues in DAVE's output, which more reflects a real life auditory experience. Without natural dynamics (or a close proximity thereof), the brain has a tough time dealing with the sound, because in our everyday natural environments we hear all sound dynamically: fluid, with depth, width and spaciousness. If one crushes that in the recording and/or mastering phases, this an afront to the way the ear was designed to hear, and in turn the way the brain to makes sense of it all.

This is why I have lamented the possible future of the Davina, and I've said as much, because once one gets to the mastering stage, current practice dicates to clip, compress, limit and destroy. Therefore, what would it matter what goes into the recording console, when it's fate is a horrible death?

I highly respect you. Honestly, I do. You and a great number of people who have posted in the DAVE thread. You've opened my eyes to many things. This, however, raised an eyebrow, because although I don't know the specific music you've been listening to on Tidal, it seems to have been intimated that Tidal is used on a regular basis, and if so, beware.

I'm truth, I would love to be able to listen to Prince's last album with a discerning ear, but I cannot because of how it was treated in the mastering phase. I thump it in my ride, where speakers give a bit more air to the environment, but I can never put on my cans and give it a good listen because of the fatiguing and ear bleeding experience. Most of these modern recordings even verge on mono because the pots are all pushed up dead center, without thought to the craft that is mixing. They want the mix to contain an unnatural force.

I guess I'll get off my stump now (haha), but if you haven't investigating the dynamics of what you're putting into your earholes I suggest you give it some thought.

I might not know my way are the tech of what makes a lot of audio work in cables, DACs, power cords and the like, but I DO know my way around the studio, and mastering houses, and I'm here to say that there's been skullduggery afoot since the early '90s, and people have gotten so used to it that they think that this is the way that music is supposed to sound. And then the DAVE comes around as a guiding light, but in order to eke the most out of it, it doesn't start with cables and interconnects. It starts with the music, itself.

Please, take no offense.


----------



## iDesign

romaz said:


> Since you have it coming already, give it a go and tell us what you think.  I have a sonicTransporter but I gave it up and moved back to my Mac when I figured out Roon > HQPlayer with no upsampling  > microRendu > DAVE was another significant step up.  Any day now, the LPS-1 power supply will be released and I am expecting it to further elevate the mR all the more without breaking the bank.  Considering how reasonable all of this costs, it's worth a trial.  A version of HQPlayer exists for Linux but it's unclear if the i5 sonicTransporter is powerful enough to run it (I suspect it is if you don't use it to oversample).  Andrew Gillis sells an i7 version of the sonicTransporter that he preconfigures with Roon and HQPlayer and I'm sure he would allow you to swap up if that's what you want to do.
> 
> Another reason to consider HQPlayer is for EQ purposes, a benefit that JaZZ finally woke me up to and I'm moving forward with it for both headphones and speakers.  Roon has no EQ but HQPlayer allows the option of 3rd party DSP.  Of course, you could also use JRiver and its EQ with your microRendu as another good option although you can't stream Tidal this way, a dealbreaker for me.
> 
> ...


 

 Can you share a screenshot of your HQPlayer settings? I am finally doing another comparison with Roon, Audirvana, Roon+HQPlayer, and Roon+HQPlayer+microRendu. Thus far I'm still finding Audirvana+ with DMG EQuilibrium is best on a Macintosh with the DAVE.


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> @Romaz, like what music on Tidal? What artists? The reason that I'm asking - and I'm not trying to be untoward - but I know that the great majority of music on Tidal, and really most streaming services, is not conducive to critical listening, especially on a masterpiece such as DAVE.
> 
> Now, I'm not talking about the genre of music, nor the style, nor even if the recording is lo-fi, hifi, or somewhere in the middle. I'm speaking of the loss of dynamics in modern mastering and recordings which makes it next to impossible for the mind to assimilate the subtle cues in DAVE's output, which more reflects a real life auditory experience. Without natural dynamics (or a close proximity thereof), the brain has a tough time dealing with the sound, because in our everyday natural environments we hear all sound dynamically: fluid, with depth, width and spaciousness. If one crushes that in the recording and/or mastering phases, this an afront to the way the ear was designed to hear, and in turn the way the brain to makes sense of it all.
> 
> ...


 
 No offense taken.  I appreciate your high standards when it comes to recordings.  
  
 I guess I'm a bit more practical with how I approach this.  My ears are routinely treated to live performances.  Many of my family and friends are musical and many of us play a variety of instruments, all acoustic.  My wife and I frequent live performances as well, usually at least monthly and sometimes weekly.  I even mix some of my own recordings.  I gave up a long time ago believing that an electronic system can come close to recreating live music.  
  
 This doesn't mean the quality of the recording doesn't matter to me because it does and as you've heard for yourself, the DAVE will expose the shortcomings of any poor recording but on the flipside, it will also reveal more fully the potential of a good recording and there are good recordings out there, even on Tidal.  To be honest, I don't listen to a ton of studio recordings but with studio recordings, I realize there are many poorly mastered ones, especially music geared for the mainstream since the mainstream are content listening to compressed MP3s on their iPhone.  The recordings I listen to most often are live acoustical recordings that really don't require much mixing at all.  They just require quality recording equipment and good recording technique and good recording practices seem to be more the norm with certain genres like classical music or jazz or certain labels like 2L, Telarc, Chesky, Opus 3, GRP, Classic Records, etc.  For classical music, which is what I listen to the most, whether it be chamber music, large orchestral or small ensemble, wonderful recordings abound, even old ones, and yes, they are available for streaming on Tidal. 
  
 I like some pop, including 80s music like Prince or Michael Jackson but my standards for this type of music are lower and so I am accepting of what I get, especially since I don't listen to it as much.  I wouldn't say their recordings on Tidal make my ears bleed but I agree, they are fatiguing to listen to for more than a few tracks.  The paradox here is that while the DAVE will expose the limits of these recordings, I am also hearing a depth of detail with my current system that is so much fuller and richer than with my previous DACs that when I am forced to downgrade to Spotify to listen to a certain piece of music, I am finding that 320k can be very passable.  While well-recorded high res downloads can be tough to beat, Tidal (and even Spotify) allows me to discover so much new music that I could never see myself without these options.  
  
 Here's a little tidbit about Tidal that may or may not be true but I'm inclined to believe that it is.  During a conversation with Eric Shinn, the head of software development for Aurender at CES earlier this year, he told me that he was enjoying the quality of Tidal streaming on his personal Aurender unit more than his own CD rips that were stored on his Aurender.  When I asked him why, he told me that his CD rips didn't sound as good.  Because Aurender has a professional business relationship with Tidal, he began investigating and found out Tidal has access to and streams from original masters that are provided to them by each label while the physical CDs that we each buy are often not ripped from the original master but rather ripped from a rip of a rip of a rip of the original master and are often fraught with errors.  As I did my own listening with my former Aurender, I also found that Tidal streaming was at least as good and in some cases better than my CD rips and even some of my downloads.


----------



## romaz

idesign said:


> Can you share a screenshot of your HQPlayer settings? I am finally doing another comparison with Roon, Audirvana, Roon+HQPlayer, and Roon+HQPlayer+microRendu. Thus far I'm still finding Audirvana+ with DMG EQuilibrium is best on a Macintosh with the DAVE.


 
 That's a fairly exhaustive comparison you've made.  
  
 DMG EQuilibrium appears to be a very sophisticated digital EQ, something that neither Roon nor HQP has built-in although HQP is capable of incorporating the benefits of DMG EQuilibrium and this is what I am exploring at this time.  Once you have your settings dialed in with DMG EQuilibrium for a certain rate you're interested in (16/44, 24/96, etc), you should be able to download an impulse response file that you can then convert into filter files that HQP can incorporate through convolution.   
  
 I just purchased a product called Acourate that doesn't have the fine manual tuning controls that DMG EQuilibrium has but instead utilizes a calibrated microphone that you place by your headphone drivers or at your listening position (for speakers listening).  It then attempts to correct for the frequency irregularities of your transducers by taming peaks and dips through its own algorithms that are modifiable to suit your taste.  It can be useful for addressing the frequency irregularities of your transducer, blending in a subwoofer or super tweeter, or correcting for room nodes.  It's probably not a substitute for properly addressing the acoustics of your listening room but it can go a long way according to people I've spoken with.
  
 HQPlayer is not the secret ingredient for me, however.  The microRendu is.  Roon is just a wonderful interface that allows me to catalog both my personal library and Tidal, something that Audirvana now also does but because Roon is tightly integrated with the microRendu and Audirvana isn't, I never considered anything but Roon.  HQPlayer is the icing and for $175, worth its asking price.  There's not much to show regarding my settings since I use no filters but for those not familiar with HQP, here are the options:
  

 Here are more filter options:

  
 As far as dithering options, I use TPDF although there are others that sound good:

  
 I don't try to convert PCM to DSD or DSD to PCM.
  
 Since I intentionally only scratch the surface of what the HQP can do, I can't consider myself an expert.  I used to wonder what HQPlayer was doing to result in better SQ if I wasn't using any filters.  I'm not sure if this is the reason but this is what another Head-Fier showed me:
  


> The theory advanced by some HQP fans is that it is able to provide better sound, through a microRendu, than Roon's own RAAT protocol, because the NAA architecture is better at isolating noise carried by the signal. The developer of HQP created the NAA to isolate the signal from all the heavy lifting that normally occurs when one uses HQP's upsampling and filtering options.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thank you for your replies gents to my post on finding speakers fast and detailed enough to do justice to the sonic capabilities of DAVE. The plasma tweeter idea is interesting. I had not come across it before. I see it runs out of steam at 1.5khz though, which requires crossing over to cone for the midband. That will likely create a significant mismatch of speed in the midband. Something I am hoping to avoid. This is why I am intrigued by the potential of a ribbon solution right down to 400hz. I will let you know my thoughts when I demo DAVE with a Piega Coax 90.2


----------



## Rob Watts

I have just tried ASIO vs WASAPI on my power hungry design lap-top with Dave - via battery operation on the lap-top, I could not hear a consistent difference.
  
 I used a recent download - Hildegard von Bingen: Vox Cosmica a 96k 24 bit recording. This is fantastic SQ and lovely music too. 
  
 Rob


----------



## SleepyOne

Hi romaz, I wonder what do you use for running HQP? And what operation system do you use for it? I am currently considering getting a NUC for HQP. Many thanks for your thoughts!


----------



## romaz

sleepyone said:


> Hi romaz, I wonder what do you use for running HQP? And what operation system do you use for it? I am currently considering getting a NUC for HQP. Many thanks for your thoughts!


 
 I use the latest version of Mac OS on a 12-core Mac Pro because it's what I happen to own but you certainly don't need this kind of machine for HQP if you don't oversample or use filters.  Not sure what processing power you'll need for DSP.  A NUC should be fine if you plan to use it like I do but if you're planning to oversample, it may not be enough.


----------



## SleepyOne

Thank you romaz! I am still undecided in term of CPU, either i5 or i7 with plenty RAM. Most likely I will not be doing over sampling or filter but will give it a try out of curiosity.


----------



## TheAttorney

I have HQP running on an i7 Windows 10 laptop and also on an i5 (or earlier equivalent, 4+ years old) Windows 7 laptop. 
  
 I don't think any of the filter or PCM upsampling options, will cause any trouble to an i5 laptop. Anyway, HQP has a free trial option.
  
 On a different DAC (iFi iDSD) I found the filter and upsampling options made worthwhile improvements, but I agree with romaz that these are best turned off for DAVE (generally pretty subtle differences IMO). 
  
 By far the biggest load on the processor is converting PCM to DSD. Even my i7 ran into difficulty trying to convert to DSD512, and occasionally stuttered on DSD256. Apart from that, almost any DSD conversion caused my laptop's fan to kick in, which is very very unwanted in a hifi setting. Others have said that PCM to DSD conversion is not recommended for DAVE - I haven't tried with DAVE because of the inherent fan noise issue (even though I previously liked PCM->DSD on the iFi iDSD).


----------



## TheAttorney

romaz said:


> DMG EQuilibrium appears to be a very sophisticated digital EQ, something that neither Roon nor HQP has built-in although HQP is capable of incorporating the benefits of DMG EQuilibrium and this is what I am exploring at this time.  Once you have your settings dialed in with DMG EQuilibrium for a certain rate you're interested in (16/44, 24/96, etc), you should be able to download an impulse response file that you can then convert into filter files that HQP can incorporate through convolution.
> 
> I just purchased a product called Acourate that doesn't have the fine manual tuning controls that DMG EQuilibrium has but instead utilizes a calibrated microphone that you place by your headphone drivers or at your listening position (for speakers listening).  It then attempts to correct for the frequency irregularities of your transducers by taming peaks and dips through its own algorithms that are modifiable to suit your taste.  It can be useful for addressing the frequency irregularities of your transducer, blending in a subwoofer or super tweeter, or correcting for room nodes.  It's probably not a substitute for properly addressing the acoustics of your listening room but it can go a long way according to people I've spoken with.


 
 The potential issue with Acourate is that I expect the frequency response of any headphone to vary considerably with the exact location of microphone. How will you know which location matches what you ear is receiving? But will be interesting to see how you get on with it.
  
 Looks like DMG EQuilibrium is designed for professional mastering studios, and is far too complex for my needs. I'm looking at its smaller brother EQuick which, apart from being much cheaper and, erm, quicker to use, it still has a 32 band equaliser and many more functions than the typical free equalisers that get bundled with the likes of JRiver MC.


----------



## SleepyOne

Thank you very much TheAttorney for the inform! I am planning to run on Linux/ Ubuntu in hope to reduce over head on the CPU. Sadly I lost the free trial due to installation crashes...oh well


----------



## analogmusic

About speakers and Dave, when I first heard Dave, it was with a Naim amplifier and Dynaudio speakers, certainly both were up to the task of audibly showing me what the difference was between a Hugo TT and Dave.
  
 For a fast Speaker, I own 2 pairs of Dynaudio speakers (excite X16 and focus 260) and happy with both.
  
 But as Mr Watts says - "you know nothing Jon Snow" so I can only report what I hear, and everyone has to audition for themselves.


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> The potential issue with Acourate is that I expect the frequency response of any headphone to vary considerably with the exact location of microphone. How will you know which location matches what you ear is receiving? But will be interesting to see how you get on with it.


 
 Good point.  I'm told by Ulrich Brueggemann, creator of Acourate, that you have to use "in-ear" microphones which are not easy to come by.  A more practical solution would be to take advantage of Tyll Hertsens' measurements of the headphones that most of us use as a guide:
  
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/headphone-measurements
  
 Here are his measurements for the HD800S, for example:
  

  
 According to Ulrich, this frequency data can be imported into Acourate and tweaked as necessary.  An inverse response can then be calculated and used as a filter for HQP.


----------



## AndrewOld

rob watts said:


> I have just tried ASIO vs WASAPI on my power hungry design lap-top with Dave - via battery operation on the lap-top, I could not hear a consistent difference.
> 
> I used a recent download - Hildegard von Bingen: Vox Cosmica a 96k 24 bit recording. This is fantastic SQ and lovely music too.
> 
> Rob




Excellent. It would have been a little troubling had there been a difference. If I remember right from my fiddling about there can be differences between WASAPI and ASIO with respect to the resilience of J River to other processes. Fire off loads of heavy programs and try and bring your processor to its knees - iirc one of the output modes will give you more or sooner dropouts. But there are also W10 system settings that affect this, in particular whether background processes have priority or not.

If you want some absolutely stunning recordings that take your breath away I can recommend the Dunedin Consorts Mozart Requiem and Bach Magnificat on Linn records. Stunning,


----------



## ubs28

Does anyone bring the Chord Dave into the Office? It's not that big actually.


----------



## x RELIC x

ubs28 said:


> Does anyone bring the Chord Dave into the Office? It's not that big actually.




I do every day... wait, I work from home, lol!


----------



## Deftone

ubs28 said:


> Does anyone bring the Chord Dave into the Office? It's not that big actually.




If i was rich enough to own a dave i wouldnt be taking it out the house lol


----------



## Mython

ubs28 said:


> Does anyone bring the Chord Dave into the Office? It's not that big actually.


 
  
  
 Well, Rob, himself, carries it around in his suitcase, during his globetrotting to various hi-fi shows.


----------



## EVOLVIST

romaz said:


> No offense taken.  I appreciate your high standards when it comes to recordings.
> 
> I guess I'm a bit more practical with how I approach this.  My ears are routinely treated to live performances.  Many of my family and friends are musical and many of us play a variety of instruments, all acoustic.  My wife and I frequent live performances as well, usually at least monthly and sometimes weekly.  I even mix some of my own recordings.  I gave up a long time ago believing that an electronic system can come close to recreating live music.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm glad you weren't offended, because that is never my intent. In a weird way, we're all in the audio realm together, but not really, if you know what I mean. I will be the first to admit that when I read keywords like Tidal, or Spotify, or even think about most modern masterings I get a knee-jerk reaction that is frequently warranted, but sometimes not. I simply find it incredibly lamentable the state of audio today. And again, I'm not saying that a recording has to be perfect to be enjoyable. I've been thoroughly enjoying a plethora of different styles, mixes, and vintages with my DAVE, all for different reasons, with or without flaws in the recording. None of the recordings, however, have been squashed dynamically by digital means in the mastering phase, although a few, e.g. a lot of  the Beatles, have that old tube compression when it was originally recorded. But I digress.
  
 As for Tidal receiving original masters, well, that is a recent (and a good) trend that's been happening for even physical CD releases as of late. In the early days of CDs there were a ton of flat transfers from original masters, when available, but that was soon supplanted by remasters, most of good quality, until we started hitting the mid-90s when all of these "hot" masters started oozing out of mastering houses. Yes, with a lack of the master tapes, or just plain laziness, there have been many CDs transferred from 2nd or 3rd gen dupes of the masters. Today it's a mixed bag, because yes, the current trend says, "Hey, let's go back to the original master and cut this thing," but also, "And while we're at it, let's make this 1965 recording sound modern." The only way to make the recording sound truly modern, though, is to remix the album, and that's a whole other can of worms. So, anyway, most of the stuff from Tidal and the like, yeah, I'll buy that they are transferring from master tapes, but what are they doing to the rip of the master in the mastering phase is the question. If it's being killed by limiters and compressors to make it sound modern, well, it doesn't matter what gen the tape is. With the DAVE I'd wager say (but I'd be damned to know how to quantify it) that you would be able to pick up more of the subtle audio cues from a poorly recorded album, yet with all it's dynamics, versus a fantastic recorded album, yet clipped, squashed and loud.
  
 That said, I'm thankful for the DAVE. I'm thankful for people like Steven Wilson and Neil Young...and I'm thankful for all of the people who take part in these conversations here. I've learned a whole lot and I look forward to learning a lot more.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Evolvist
I must admit I do like much of that old tube compression on voices or instruments. Equally when it is pumped on a mix to add excitement. Analogue compression still sounds more natural to me. I think the problem with modern mastering techniques is that it can be overused to the point of losing the emotion of musicality. Dynamics are intrinsically linked to emotion and messing with them too much destroys the magic for me. The remaster of Van Morrisons - Healing Game is affected by this problem. It is not as destructive as Ryan Adams -Heartbreaker (sacd/cd) but something is lost. It is probably the reason Van cancelled the schedule to remaster all his albums part way through. Eventually I think many early CD masters will become collectors items. I suspect it will be a costly mistake in years to come for anyone to give away one of the more rare Doug Sax masterings. 

Corrected: Van Morrison album I was referring to was 'The Healing Game' and not 'Back on top' which I originally referred to


----------



## Rob Watts

I was fortunate enough to hear Doug Sax working at the Mastering Lab in the early 90's. At that time, it was the best reproduced audio I had heard.
  
 Talking of pro-audio, whilst in Moscow last week I was doing a technical talk on Dave and Mojo, and afterwards a young recording engineer talked to me. Naturally, I chatted about Davina, and he said that he would like a vari-speed option on it, as a lot of ADC/DAC's don't allow it. So I thought about it, and reckoned it was possible, so we will add it as a feature on the pro version of Davina. Now he needs it so that he can match pitch from different tracks. So I said why didn't he use digital effects to change the pitch? He said they were awful, and completely changed the character of the voice, making it sound unnatural.
  
 We then talked about removing DC offsets - and he said that using low pass filters sounded worse than taking a file, calculating the DC and subtracting to offset. I explained why it would make a difference - but the point I am making is that there are very good mastering and recording engineers who really do have good ears and are prepared to make great efforts to get more musical sound.
  
 But they need the tools to do the job properly - and that's why I am so keen on creating the tools for them.
  
 Rob


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

A special moment with Doug Sax by the sound of it Rob and a very interesting discussion with a recording engineer. I know what he means about distorting the voice with pitch shifting. The only software I have heard that is anywhere near natural in this respect is Melodyne. Like the engineer implied, in general they are not worth bothering with unless you are going for a deliberately unnatural sound.

Anyway, the Davina project must be a refreshing change for you Rob. Please do continue to keep us informed on its development.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

The more I think about that 'varispeed' request Rob, the more I think the Davina project could spur new commercial developments for you and Chord. Once your have proven the superior sq I think engineers will want you to build that capability into all manner of their everyday processes. It could be quite exciting I think, though very time consuming at the same time. 

......I hope you are training a Rob junior to handle the extra workload.


----------



## tunes

Does the Dave work with streaming services like TIDAL?

Has anyone compared the Hifiman HE 1000 with the HE 1000 V2?

Also heard the the new McIntosh MHA 150 has a better second generation DAC. Wonder how this sounds compared to the Chord Dave, also on my short list for future pairing with a HEK.


----------



## Christer

rob watts said:


> I was fortunate enough to hear Doug Sax working at the Mastering Lab in the early 90's. At that time, it was the best reproduced audio I had heard.
> 
> Talking of pro-audio, whilst in Moscow last week I was doing a technical talk on Dave and Mojo, and afterwards a young recording engineer talked to me. Naturally, I chatted about Davina, and he said that he would like a vari-speed option on it, as a lot of ADC/DAC's don't allow it. So I thought about it, and reckoned it was possible, so we will add it as a feature on the pro version of Davina. Now he needs it so that he can match pitch from different tracks. So I said why didn't he use digital effects to change the pitch? He said they were awful, and completely changed the character of the voice, making it sound unnatural.
> 
> ...


 

 Regarding Doug Sax his direct cut Sheffield Labs classical LPs like Prokofiev´s Romeo and Juliet and excerpts from Wagner operas are still after all these years,they were done around 1977,THE refererences for me  of string sound, natural timbre and how an orchestra sounds in an admittedly dryish  hall.A very coherent simple mic take.
 Soundstage doesn´t get more realistic than this imho.Absolutely pinpoint  location of instrument layout both  front to back and the sides way beyond both of my electrostatic speakers.
 And no synthetic digital no man´s land blackness.
 Well recorded acoustic music does NOT arise from digital blackness!
 What you  should hear before the music starts, apart from a slight surface noise as with LPs is the ambient sound of the venue itself and whatever extramusical noise players make now and then.
 The purity of tone and superb string tone and lightning fast and accurate not low res digital  squashed, transients  with harmonics intact,from percussion is still the most realistic I have ever heard from any recording medium.
 If all LPs had been  this good I would never have bought into digital for any other reasons than portability needs for my travels.
 RBCD a few years later came as a pain and an offence on sensitive ears!
 Mind you I still have roughly ten shelf metres of LPs in my listening room.
 I think the reasons for their superiority over a lot of modern digital boils down  to the following: all analogue, no  digital approximations and filtering,  no bits involved, no sampling and no limiting with the best direct cuts.
 And the dynamic range from direct cuts, is as good as it gets from LP,and quiet vinyl,around 70 dB. No signal processing,no compression. Simply stunning.
 Regarding pitch /speed variation I am of the opinion that if a singer can´t sing in tune, get someone who can, to do the job for her or him instead.
 There are too many in the popular music genre that can´t really sing in tune imo.
 I rarely listen to that genre but what worries me most is the decline in standards in the classical world where time and cost saving, multimic overkill and signal processsing and post-processing  too often ruin the final result and renders it less realistic than even a decent recording made in the late fifties done with a simple blumlein stereo mic set.
 Blumlein or Sheffields labs  spaced omnis ,simple miking, no limiting ,a goood venue and orchestra and highest possible resolving  Davina, now that  would sound promising.


----------



## Mython

daveredref-iii said:


> ......I hope you are training a Rob junior to handle the extra workload.


 
  
  
 One can't 'train' accumulated wisdom.


----------



## x RELIC x

tunes said:


> Does the Dave work with streaming services like TIDAL?
> 
> Has anyone compared the Hifiman HE 1000 with the HE 1000 V2?
> 
> Also heard the the new McIntosh MHA 150 has a better second generation DAC. Wonder how this sounds compared to the Chord Dave, also on my short list for future pairing with a HEK.




Tidal, yes, if your source can play Tidal and output a digital signal to the DAVE then you will hear it. The DAVE simply receives the digital bitstream and has nothing to do with Tidal. That is up to the source.

Ask about the HE1000 V1 vs V2 in the HE1000 thread, you'll get way more responses.

The McIntosh is far behind the DAVE's measured DAC performance. Not even in the same ballpark. Also, the McIntosh headphone output specs are, again, behind the DAVE. 

I have no judgement on the McIntosh unit's sound, I haven't heard one, but you're asking about two different categories of gear here.


----------



## Kamil21

rob watts said:


> I was fortunate enough to hear Doug Sax working at the Mastering Lab in the early 90's. At that time, it was the best reproduced audio I had heard.
> 
> Talking of pro-audio, whilst in Moscow last week I was doing a technical talk on Dave and Mojo, and afterwards a young recording engineer talked to me. Naturally, I chatted about Davina, and he said that he would like a vari-speed option on it, as a lot of ADC/DAC's don't allow it. So I thought about it, and reckoned it was possible, so we will add it as a feature on the pro version of Davina. Now he needs it so that he can match pitch from different tracks. So I said why didn't he use digital effects to change the pitch? He said they were awful, and completely changed the character of the voice, making it sound unnatural.
> 
> ...




Since requests are still coming in is Davina going to get RIAA EQ support too?  Linn have one in their Dac and I can imagine this go some way towards settling the analog vs digital debate.


----------



## ubs28

x relic x said:


> I do every day... wait, I work from home, lol!


 
  
 Nice, I'm jealous.


----------



## ubs28

Do you guys think that the HD 800 S does the Chord Dave justice or do I need to buy the Focal Utopia to hear what the Chord Dave is fully capable off?


----------



## Light - Man

ubs28 said:


> Nice, I'm jealous.


 
  
 A bit like this?..........................................................................................or more like this?


----------



## ubs28

light - man said:


> A bit like this?..........................................................................................or more like this?


 

 Neither really. It's great if someone can work from home all day. I wouldn't mind that myself  But I'm happy with my job and don't feel envious.


----------



## rkt31

it may not be right for me to go into much detail but imho early CD master may not be having the compression but must have come from much lower resolution original digital master as compared to newer. now much higher resolution ( sample rate and bits ) is available along with better dither and src. so imho better CD master should be possible these days if the compression is kept in check. I myself converted some 24 bit 192 files into CD quality using iZotope 64bit src and iZotope ultra dither and the resulting CD quality file was extremely close to original 24bit 192 file.


----------



## rkt31

it may not be right for me to Igo into much detail but imho early CD master mat not be having the compression but must have come from much lower resolution original digital master as compared to newer. now much higher resolution ( sample rate and bits ) is available along with better dither and src. so imho better CD master should be possible these days if the compression is kept in check. I myself concerned some 24 bit 192 files into CD quality using iZotope 64bit src and iZotope ultra dither and the resulting CD quality file was extremely close to original 24bit 192 file.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Do any of you guys know the state of play regarding Chords proposed power amp range to link with DAVE's digital outputs?

I thought the first small power amp was testing some months ago. Maybe I have got it wrong.


----------



## ubs28

What do you guys also think of mono DAC from Esoteric for example (around $40.000) in comparison to the Chord Dave?

I was listening to these on the latest flagship speaker from B&W and it sounded really good. I didn't have the Chord Dave with me for direct comparison though.


----------



## Rob Watts

daveredref-iii said:


> Do any of you guys know the state of play regarding Chords proposed power amp range to link with DAVE's digital outputs?
> 
> I thought the first small power amp was testing some months ago. Maybe I have got it wrong.


 
 It's been delayed because of other projects. Dave's output stage came from the amp, but I need to re-do the prototype, with the lessons learned from Dave's development.. It is planned for 2017 though.
  
 Rob


----------



## EVOLVIST

daveredref-iii said:


> Evolvist
> I must admit I do like much of that old tube compression on voices or instruments. Equally when it is pumped on a mix to add excitement. Analogue compression still sounds more natural to me. I think the problem with modern mastering techniques is that it can be overused to the point of losing the emotion of musicality. Dynamics are intrinsically linked to emotion and messing with them too much destroys the magic for me. The remaster of Van Morrisons - Healing Game is affected by this problem. It is not as destructive as Ryan Adams -Heartbreaker (sacd/cd) but something is lost. It is probably the reason Van cancelled the schedule to remaster all his albums part way through. Eventually I think many early CD masters will become collectors items. I suspect it will be a costly mistake in years to come for anyone to give away one of the more rare Doug Sax masterings.
> 
> Corrected: Van Morrison album I was referring to was 'The Healing Game' and not 'Back on top' which I originally referred to




Yeah, there's nothing wrong with some good ol' tube compression, yet of course with anything if it's used heavy-handed it kills the thing. A good juxtaposition is recordings by the Beatles vs the Kinks. Though both bands are not known for sonic masterpieces, regardless of song quality, the Beatles, or rather George Martin used tube compression more judiciously, as opposed to the Kinks who really destroyed their sound. To add insult to injury all of the Kinks multitracks from their PYE days were wiped. They don't exist, so there's no chance of going back and remixing. 

Of course I mention the oldies because that's when tube compression really came into play for rock n roll. Though from my experience, even today, when instruments are compressed and limited during the recording phase the results are far less offensive than during the mastering phase.


----------



## rgs9200m

I've always wondered why there is no DSD from the early Kinks,while there is from the latter day releases. Thanks for that info.


----------



## wmns

crgreen said:


> I think that's right. If anyone's worked out how to access the display features with the remote, I'd be interested to know. I'd like to be able to switch between PCM and DSD using the remote.


 
 Push the menu button followed by pushing the right arrow for a few seconds until the display blinks. This will switch between PCM and DSD. In my case it only works with the right button not the left one.


----------



## NikonGuy

..


----------



## Gomiki

daveredref-iii said:


> Do any of you guys know the state of play regarding Chords proposed power amp range to link with DAVE's digital outputs?
> 
> I thought the first small power amp was testing some months ago. Maybe I have got it wrong.




A retailer recommend is to use the new excellent Chord SPM 1050 MKII Power amp with the Chord DAVE. He say this combination will be awesome. 

In fact is this combination....

[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/ZGujLm-5wUw[/VIDEO]


----------



## Gomiki

daveredref-iii said:


> Do any of you guys know the state of play regarding Chords proposed power amp range to link with DAVE's digital outputs?
> 
> I thought the first small power amp was testing some months ago. Maybe I have got it wrong.




A retailer recommend is to use the new excellent Chord SPM 1050 MKII Power amp with the Chord DAVE. He say this combination will be awesome. 

In fact this combination.... Is in a youtube video Munich High End Show 2016


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks for the update Rob. I shall look forward to their release in 2017


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

evolvist said:


> Yeah, there's nothing wrong with some good ol' tube compression, yet of course with anything if it's used heavy-handed it kills the thing. A good juxtaposition is recordings by the Beatles vs the Kinks. Though both bands are not known for sonic masterpieces, regardless of song quality, the Beatles, or rather George Martin used tube compression more judiciously, as opposed to the Kinks who really destroyed their sound. To add insult to injury all of the Kinks multitracks from their PYE days were wiped. They don't exist, so there's no chance of going back and remixing.
> 
> Of course I mention the oldies because that's when tube compression really came into play for rock n roll. Though from my experience, even today, when instruments are compressed and limited during the recording phase the results are far less offensive than during the mastering phase.




I didn't know that about the Kinks masters Evolvist. What a loss!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

gomiki said:


> A retailer recommend is to use the new excellent Chord SPM 1050 MKII Power amp with the Chord DAVE. He say this combination will be awesome.
> 
> In fact is this combination....
> 
> [VIDEO]https://youtu.be/ZGujLm-5wUw[/VIDEO]




Thanks for the suggestion Gomiki but I already use the Chord SPM1200 mkII. It is with out a doubt an excellent amp but I have high hopes for the benefits of running the digital signal beyond DAVE right up to the new power amp OP. Always looking for the next improvement.


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## Gomiki

Not sure if the 1200 MKII is just a more powerful version of the new 1050 mkii, or this brings technical improvements, I do not clear.
 In my mind is use 1050 MKII for my PMC Tewnty 26, ,, cares tell me that speakers used for your 1200 mkii, thx.


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## DaveRedRef-III

I am currently using Sonus Faber Olympica III but expect this to change soon.


----------



## EVOLVIST

daveredref-iii said:


> I didn't know that about the Kinks masters Evolvist. What a loss!


 
  
 Yeah, some of the multitracks survived for the Kinks, but not whole sessions for albums. You could never piece together a full Kinks album from the multitracks for the whole PYE era. The multitracks that did survive are odd songs here and there that have already been remixed for the Kinks deluxe packages. Alas, even those original multis were still compressed to hell.
  
 Which reminds me, I have yet to listen to any Kinks on my DAVE.  I know what to expect, though.


----------



## JaZZ

Most of the (early) Kinks songs I like best are in mono. It was a great surprise to discover that there's a trick with DAVE's crossfeed settings to get a stereophonized version. Really amazing! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Just kidding! But seriously, since I can't stand mono recordings, especially through headphones, I've learned how to stereophonize them manually. Despite being fully artificial, the effect sounds quite plausible – especially if you don't know about the manipulation. I even had to stereophonize the few Beatles songs that have been left mono in the 2009 remastered collection, among them «Love me do» (which has benefitted a lot). Also the Beach Boys' «Good Vibrations» and many Rolling Stones songs...


----------



## MacedonianHero

jazz said:


> Most of the (early) Kinks songs I like best are in mono. It was a great surprise to discover that there's a trick with DAVE's crossfeed settings to get a stereophonized version. Really amazing!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Agreed. I barely listened to mono recordings...then the Chord crossfeed came into play with my TT and now I don't avoid them like I used to.


----------



## iDesign

romaz said:


> That's a fairly exhaustive comparison you've made.
> 
> DMG EQuilibrium appears to be a very sophisticated digital EQ, something that neither Roon nor HQP has built-in although HQP is capable of incorporating the benefits of DMG EQuilibrium and this is what I am exploring at this time.  Once you have your settings dialed in with DMG EQuilibrium for a certain rate you're interested in (16/44, 24/96, etc), you should be able to download an impulse response file that you can then convert into filter files that HQP can incorporate through convolution.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you for the detailed response. I am also going to revisit JRiver and Amarra on the Macintosh to round out the evaluation I am doing. However, because of all of the different configurations/settings involved it is difficult and painstaking to do. I have spent enough time with HQPlayer and exchanging emails with a few experts on the subject to draw some conclusions. With Roon+HQPlayer using the Filter (poly-sync), Dither (TPDF) and Modulator (ASDM) options have produced inconsistent results it largely depends on the recording. In fact disabling the Filter settings seemed to produce the best results. As for usability and interfaces, I much prefer Audirvana+ to Roon and because it is tidy, supports Audio Unit plug-ins for DMG EQuilibrium, and it has reliable AFP and SMB support (the Play Album vs. Play Track function in Roon is also a major annoyance). I personally think Roon is abysmal and nothing short of terrible.  I'm just not hearing enough sonic improvement with Roon+HQPlayer+microRendu to overshadow the clunky UI's, physical clutter, and annual Roon subscription. Audirvana+ with DMG EQuilibrium is still my preference for the Macintosh.


----------



## analogmusic

hello does anyone know if the DAVE can be auditioned in Geneva?


----------



## romaz

daveredref-iii said:


> Given the speed and dynamics, improved transient correctness and additional detail that DAVE delivers, it is not surprising to me that top-end headphone users were among the first and most numerous of audiophiles proclaiming DAVE as a meaningful step up in musical presentation. As top end headphones tend to knock 90+% of speakers out of the ball park I have been investigating types of speaker which could perhaps do justice to DAVE's attributes.


 
  
 I loved this post of yours.  It has taken me this long to give it a proper response.  Unfortunately, due to unforeseen family issues, this will be my last post on HF for a while and so forgive me if I offer no follow-up responses.  Also, forgive me for this insanely long post, I don't expect most to read it all the way through but I decided to leave it all on the table.
  
 Here is a question posed to Rob some time ago.  Rob's response is in blue:
  
 Rob, what is most important with the DAVE?

_"In simple terms its about resolution first, then less jitter sensitivity, lower distortion and noise.

 Subjectively the resolution gives better depth perception, and lower THD and noise gives smoother sound."_
  
 As DAVE owners know, no connection to the DAVE is more transparent to these qualities than DAVE's integrated headphone output.  To this end, headphone listening can be superior to speaker listening as speaker listening involves the addition of a transparency-degrading amplifier to the chain.  Some prefer to add an outboard headphone amp for any number of reasons (different tone, more weight, etc) but in my own experience, this comes at a cost of speed, detail, bandwidth and noise.  For some, this is an acceptable trade-off.  For me, it is not and this is one reason why I have come to really enjoy headphone listening as a superior way of listening to music.
  
 For some time now, I have targeted DACs that have allowed me to tap into the DAC's native signal without having to add an intermediary headphone amp.  Sometimes, this worked out great and sometimes, it didn't.  Using a headphone cable terminated with female XLR connectors, I was able to do this with my Bricasti M1 and also my TotalDac.  Because the Bricasti's output impedance was 32 ohms (roughly the same as my HE-1000), it worked but as you would imagine, the lack of damping factor resulted in poor control and a somewhat "edgy" response and so with the Bricasti, I got better sound with an outboard amplifier and I tried many.  With my TotalDac d1-monobloc, this direct connection worked better.  Output impedance was a bit lower at 18 ohms and combined with the more relaxed nature of the TotalDac, it was a much more enjoyable experience.  While the damping factor wasn't ideal, the significant increase in transparency as far as speed, detail, depth and lower noise were well worth the trade-offs.  Even with the finest headphone amp I had ever heard, the Eddie Current Studio (http://www.head-fi.org/products/eddie-current-studio), it was no match to what I was hearing with my headphone connected direct to DAC.  When the DAVE came on board, it had everything I could hope for.  Unmatched detail retrieval, superior time resolution, better dynamic contrasts and lightning speed.  While it may not have the gravitas of a much more powerful amplifier, with its excellent damping factor, it has all of the finesse and control of the very best amplifiers.  Combined with a DHC Silver Spore4 cable, I could find no real downside, other than the inherent limitations of the headphones themselves.
  
 This is the challenge that the DAVE presents at the moment.  While headphones direct to DAVE presents the most transparent and most resolute listening experience possible at the present time, speakers done right can be so much better in other ways.  I won't debate the virtues of headphones vs speakers in this post except to say that I am a fan of both and I agree with what Tyll Hertsens had to say recently on Inner Fidelity:
  
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/strengths-and-weaknesses-headphones-and-speakers#F3CTs65bOLALImws.97
  
 To summarize, he believes headphones have the advantage when it comes to resolution but speakers have the advantage when it comes to imaging/soundstage and visceral impact and I believe all of these factors are important when trying to convincingly recreate a musical experience.  To this, I will add that speakers also provide us much more variety.  While a decent handful of top tier headphones exist (i.e. HE-1000, Abyss, HD800, SR-009, Nighthawk, Utopias, etc), there are literally hundreds of different brands and models of speakers to choose from and this doesn't count the numerous DIY speakers out there.
  
 In my own personal situation, while I have a very good home theater space with excellent 2-channel potential, as I have mentioned in previous posts, until my youngest child leaves for college in 2 years, I have been forced to put this endeavor on hold because during the times when I prefer to listen to music, my son is busy studying.  This has forced me to headphones which I have not regretted given how good today's headphones are but I am ever mindful that even mediocre speakers are capable of a certain performance that the best headphones can never achieve.  As a temporary placeholder, I put together a near field system on my large desk in my home office where I do my headphone listening.  Initially, it was an inexpensive pair of AudioEngine A5+ powered speakers and then a pair of PeachTree ERA speakers.  My headphone to speaker listening was maybe a 9:1 ratio at first and so it never made sense to spend more.  As my DACs improved, I began experimenting with better speakers including the Sonus Faber Luito, Magnepan Mini Maggie, KEF LS50 and even the KEF Reference 1.  For one reason or another, these speakers didn't work out for me in a near field desktop setup.  One of the problems I discovered is that for these relatively inefficient speakers to sound good, they require higher power amplifiers and for this combination to sound their best, you really need to listen at relatively loud volumes, a luxury I don't have during most evenings.  Unfortunately, at lower volumes, these speakers all fell flat.  The music lost depth and soul and this is why headphone listening has been a better substitute.  One of the qualities that I have really come to enjoy with headphones is delicacy.  Even at low volumes, the delicate textures of a violin are better realized.  My headphones can also more clearly distinguish between minute changes in loudness that we call microdynamics.  Is this because of the transparency of DAVE's headphone output or is this a characteristic of low wattage amps and the higher-efficiency drivers?
  
 I believe it to be both.  At audio shows, I am always amazed at the differences but similar levels of enjoyment between high and low power amplified systems that I hear and for some time now, I have considered the ideal 2-channel speaker setup to be comprised of 2 different systems.  Nothing I have heard reproduces to full scale the majesty of a large orchestra better than a pair of $180,000 Focal Grand Utopia EMs powered by a pair of 746 watt Naim Statement S1 monoblocks _but_ at the same time, nothing I have heard, including electrostats, reproduces the nuance and texture of a solo vocal or rendering of a solo Spanish guitar better than the single full-range driver used in the Voxativ 9.87s driven by a low power SET tube amp.  While ideally, I would love to have both, if I was forced to choose, given my preference for acoustical music, I would opt for the latter and indeed, I have made my move in this direction.  
  
 About a year ago, I discovered the charm of the Omega Super 3i monitors that are comprised of a single full range 4.5 inch driver.  Because no power-robbing crossover is involved, these speakers can be driven well with just 2 watts.  You might think this speaker would sound thin driven by 2 watts but the delight I have received from the transparency, speed and purity of tone from these drivers has easily eclipsed what I got from the other speakers that have graced my desk.  Paired with Omega's 8 inch subwoofer, known more for its speed and musicality, this system has been anything but thin sounding.  I owned this Omega setup with my previous TotalDac and once the DAVE came on board and after I discovered HFC's magnetic RCA adapters, these speakers took on new life.  Instead of 9:1 headphone to speaker listening, it became closer to 50:50.  The discovery of HFC led to the purchase of HFC interconnects and speaker cables.  Even driven by an inexpensive Bantam Gold class D amplifier by Temple Audio (15 watts into 8 ohms), these Omega drivers were singing so beautifully, I was just amazed.  Buoyed by the experience of hearing a set of Audio Note UK speakers that incorporated ALNICO drivers (about $30k), I commissioned Louis Chochos, owner of Omega Loudspeakers to create a custom set of his Compact ALNICO Montiors (CAM) for my desktop at a much more affordable price of about $2k.  What are ALNICO drivers, you might ask?  They incorporate magnets made of ALuminum, NIckel and CObalt that are considerably more powerful than ferrite magnets and while much more expensive, according to Louis, they result in better control, balance, linearity, texture and layering.  They offer higher resolution, especially noticeable in the mid-bass area, with instruments like standup bass and kick drums.  They also exude a slight touch of natural warmth.  I specified real Macassar Ebony wood for my cabinets, a nice contrast to my cherry desk.  I also asked Louis to use the same highly resolving OCC-grade silver/gold alloy that Dave Cahoon of Zenwave Audio uses in his D5 interconnects that I recently reviewed along with a pair of Furutech's best rhodium-plated low mass binding posts.  My speakers are a more compact version of these:
  
 http://omegaloudspeakers.com/superalnicomonit.html
  
 How do they sound?  As good as advertised and to my ears, the magic is in the midrange.  Everything Louis described is there.  They have the speed of my old Omegas but the texture of instruments and voices is just more palpable and seductive.  The layers are better fleshed out.  Not just microdetails but microdynamics are better realized.  On several occasions, I have brought my DAVE to my home theater room and have used it to feed my Sonus Faber Cremona Ms powered by Sunfire 400 watt amplifiers.  While beautifully emotive in their presentation and very satisfying for movie watching, for the replay of acoustical music, I enjoy the delicacy of my Omega ALNICOs more.  
  
 This, of course, has led me to seek better amplification and this is where things get interesting.  While I tend to lump the digital recording, music server and DAC into one category, I tend to see the speaker and its amplifer as its own category.  All speakers have strengths and weaknesses and a good amplifier should highlight those strengths and hopefully minimize any weaknesses.  This is where I see the most potential synergy at play.  An example of this would be the SR-009 and BHSE.  While others may prefer other amps for this headphone, when I owned this headphone, only the BHSE made it sing the way I wanted it to and so I would never consider one without the other.  With the Omega ALNICOs, I did some asking around and most owners agreed that while the inexpensive Bantam Gold was a nice option for my lesser Omega 3is, the ALNICOs deserved better and sounded especially good with tubes.  The Decware 2 watt OTL tube amps are among the most frequently suggested and so I placed an order for one since they come with a 30 day trial period.  Unfortunately, because these amps are so popular and are hand-built, there is a 3-month waiting period for one and so I went with another highly recommended option which happens to be Louis' personal favorite and that is the First Watt J2 by Nelson Pass, a 25 watt class A JFET solid state amplifier.  As part of my comparison, I also commissioned a certain electrical engineer (and professor of electrical engineering at a university in Canada) to build me a tube buffer.  This tube buffer is somewhat unique and exists nowhere else in the world.  Here are photos:
  

  
 Pictured above is my customized Bantam amplifier.  While class D amps have their issues, this is easily the nicest low power class D amp I have heard and is a wonderful match for both sets of Omegas I have owned.  They imbue a slightly warm signature, are very low distortion, very fast and are more transparent than I would have imagined for class D.  They have better damping factor than tube amps, are very efficient, run cool and are a wonderful value.  For desktop use, I cannot recommend them more highly.  Equally important, while they are made half way around the world from me (Cheshire, England), John Clayton, who runs this small company, is a pleasure to deal with and is happy to take custom orders, something that can't be said of many companies, and so this amp includes a real cherry face to match my desk along with my preferred Furutech RCA connectors and binding posts.  Pictured on top of my Bantam amplifier is this tube buffer.
  

  
 Pictured above is the First Watt J2 by Nelson Pass.  To the right is my Omega ALNICO monitor suspended by an IsoAcoustic Aperta stand. The J2 is a transistor amp that some describe as having tube-like characteristics.  It is unique in its use of JFET inputs and outputs.  JFETS aren't new but until recently, they have been hard to come by as Sony and Yamaha stopped producing them years ago.  They are now being manufactured by a company in Missouri and Nelson Pass found them very much to his liking.  JFETS are known for their low distortion characteristics compared to MOSFET-type transistors and so they don't require as much feedback to keep distortion low.  More importantly, as Nelson will tell you, JFETS are also very musical.  Like all class A amps, the J2 is inefficient and runs hot.  It outputs 25 watts into 8 ohms but consumes 180 watts to do so.  It sounds decent after about 5 minutes but doesn't sound its best for at least 30-45 minutes.  For as big as this thing is and as hot as it runs and as much power as it consumes, and more importantly for $4,000, this thing had better sound better.  And indeed, it does.  No question; and it took all of 30 seconds to realize it.  There is a sublime chemistry that occurs between this amp and the Omega ALNICO.  As expected for a low power class A amp, low-level resolution is reproduced with wonderful fidelity.  This amp is a touch warmer in its signature compared to the Bantam but along with this tonal warmth is an effortless smoothness and a certain midrange bloom that I wasn't expecting from a transistor amp.  I am less inclined to call it a coloration but perhaps a superior "bringing to the surface" of the natural characteristics of the Omega ALNICOs.  Whatever it is, I like it.  It also presents a wonderfully rich bouquet of details.  Sometimes how the details are presented is as important as the details themselves and the J2 shines in its presentation.  It not only sounds clearer and cleaner than the Bantam or any tube amp I've heard but better finessed, airier, deeper and tonally richer.  For all of its inconveniences, I really like this amp.  Have I mentioned how much I really like this amp?
  
 So what about this tube buffer?  As I said, this isn't your usual tube buffer.  This was designed as a test device and so no effort was made to place it into an attractive case.  Unlike many audiophile devices, this device cost me time and materials (about $1k).  Aside from the impact of the tube, I wanted this to be as transparent a device as possible.  The power supply is housed in the lower chassis to minimize noise and utilizes solid state rectification to keep things simple.  My signal tube of choice is the 6SN7 which includes the Tung Sol Round Plate and its variants including the more romantic Mullard ECC32 and RCA 6F8G, NOS tubes that are among my favorites that I still own.  As a unity gain device, it provides no amplification.  It is purposely devoid of a volume pot that would impact transparency.  It has a simple cathode follower output stage.  No PCBs are used and wiring is completely point-to-point.  All wiring used, both for signal and power, per my specification, is UP-OCC solid core silver and fits compactly in a 4in x 6in chassis.  Now, this is where this tube buffer becomes a one-of-a-kind device.  I have had quite a few Head-Fiers PM me wishing there was some way to spice up the DAVE's SQ for their recordings that could benefit from spicing up.  In their opinion, for certain recordings, transparency wasn't necessarily a good thing.  I have wondered this as well.  Once entrenched in the tube world, I couldn't help but wonder.   And so this tube buffer comes with several modes.  The left knob will alternate among 1 of 3 modes.  Mode 1 represents the tube buffer being activated in the circuit.  Mode 2 represents a bypass mode where the tube buffer is completely bypassed and in fact, even with the tube buffer unplugged from the wall, this mode still functions.  This way, I could very quickly A/B the impact of the tube buffer but this also allows me to incorporate the tube buffer for my poorer recordings and bypass it for my recordings that don't need it.  Mode 3 represents what I will call my "super bypass mode" and I will explain later what that represents.  The right knob is an infinitely variable bias knob.    When the tube buffer is activated, this bias knob will alter the tube effect from minimum to maximum (without clipping the audio signal).  This way, I could tailor how much tube effect I was getting.  At its minimum setting, using a 6SN7 tube, this amounts to about 1k ohm of equivalent noise resistance.  At its maximium setting, this increases to about 50k ohm of equivalent noise resistance.  This is to say it would look no worse than the noise in a 50k ohm resistor.  Since the noise output of my Bantam class D amp is about double that, I figured this noise would be buried by my amp's noise and indeed, this proved to be a relatively quiet buffer.  With my Bantam, I could detect no hiss. 
  
 My findings?  Paired with the Bantam class D, the tube buffer was a nice addition for some recordings.  I used to own an Eddie Current Balancing Act headphone tube amp that I enjoyed with these same signal tubes and having this tube buffer in the circuit brought me back to those days.  It is a pleasant coloration, especially for some of my Dave Brubeck, Miles Davis and John Coltrane recordings from the 1950s and 60s.  Is it better?  I would say it is a very familiar and comfortable sound but as I set the bias knob from minimum to maximum effect, while this familiar and pleasant coloration noticeably increases, it comes at the expense of clarity and depth.  It's amazing how the soundstage shrinks and so there is a definite tradeoff.  When I switch to mode 2 and the tube buffer is completely bypassed, the noise floor noticeably gets blacker, clarity is enhanced and the soundstage enlarges further.  In fact, my brother, who loves jazz more than I do and still refuses to part with his turntable and his tubes, upon hearing my system commented on how "unnaturally clear" his favorite jazz recordings sound.  He is so conditioned to hearing his jazz recordings in a cloudy and colorful haze that he prefers it.  To be fair to those who are enjoying their tube preamps, this is not the finest implementation of tubes that is possible and when you're trying to balance the tonality of your speakers and amplifier, this is one way to do it but without question, the most transparent preamp for the DAVE is to have no preamp.
  
 I then combined this tube buffer with the First Watt J2 and while it similarly imparted the same tube flavors, I didn't care for it with the J2.  As the J2 combined with the ALNICOs already possess a nice warmth, smoothness, and even a certain midrange bloom, the tube buffer added no real benefit as far as tone and instead took away soundstage and dulled clarity.  It would have been difficult to fully appreciate this, however, unless I was able to A/B quickly between the two and so this tube buffer easily proved its worth.
  
 Regarding this mode 3 that I call "super bypass mode" that I alluded to earlier, this is where this tube buffer proved _more_ than its worth.  Exactly what is this, you might ask?  Here is a close-up view of the rear of this tube buffer:
  

  
  
 If you examine this photo carefully, you will notice a pair of Furutech RCA inputs and a pair of RCA outputs, exactly what you would expect in a single-ended tube buffer.  You will notice, however, a quad of Furutech speaker binding posts.  As I mentioned earlier, this is a unity gain tube buffer and so it provides no amplification.  Furthermore, with an output impedance of 450 ohms, there is no way this device could directly drive a set of 8-ohm speakers.  So why the speaker binding posts?  Well, mode 3 is called "super bypass" not only because it bypasses the tube buffer but now also bypasses the amplifier, either the Bantam or First Watt J2 or whatever is connected.  In this scenario, the DAVE is now _directly_ powering my speakers.
  
 For some time now, I have wondered how well the DAVE's single op-amp could drive a pair of high-efficiency speakers.  With 6v RMS output from its RCA connectors which translates to about 1 watt at 32 ohms, I figured that would translate to about 4 watts of class A power at 8 ohms and with a very low output impedance of 0.055 ohms, a damping factor of 145 and THD + noise of 0.000015%, these figures easily outpace the best SET amp you can buy today.  When you factor in the superior transparency this would provide...well now you know why I would attempt to build such a device.  When I brought this up to Rob, he told me he never designed the DAVE to directly drive speakers and that the PSU on the negative rail can only do 0.5A RMS and that this would be the limiting factor.  He further indicated that the OP stage is capable of 3.8 watts RMS into 8 ohms but the PSU will limit it if done continuously with the limit being 2 watts into both channels.  He also told me to forget about a 4 ohm load and that if I tried it with 8 ohms, not go above +3dB.  I don't know if Rob was trying to discourage me but the only thing I remember reading was that he _never_ told me NOT to do it.
  
 Well, I'll cut to the chase to tell you that as good as the First Watt J2 is, the DAVE directly driving my Omega ALNICOs is better and is quite possibly the most satisfying sound I have ever heard an electronic system produce.  Before you dismiss my claim as hyperbole, I will qualify my statement because it needs qualifying.  First, despite the efficiency of these ALNICO drivers, 2 watts with limited headroom can only play so loud but according to my SPL meter, I can reach peaks of up to 90dB which is plenty loud for how I prefer to listen to music these days.  In fact, for most music, my DAVE is comfortably set at about -15 to -20dB.  Moreover, these monitors were never designed to play loud.  Unlike the other monitors I have auditioned on my desk, the sweet spot of the ALNICOs is at low to moderate volumes and at its sweet spot, for acoustical music and for vocals, I have not heard _anything_ sweeter.  You could say that with your HE-1000, Abyss, LCD-4 or HD800S connected direct to DAVE, you already have some sense of what I'm hearing and you would be correct but what I will say is this.  Having at one time owned each of these headphones with my DAVE, I have thus far never had a headphone experience as good as what I'm getting now and I will bring you back to Tyll's assessment of the differences between headphones and speakers to explain why.   As I mentioned before, in the 2-channel speaker world, there is considerably more variety to choose from and while headphones have come a long way, these ALNICOs, in my humble opinion, surpass the best headphone drivers I have yet heard as far as resolution in terms of inner detail, texture, nuance and microdynamics.  They also yield a more alluring tone.  When you combine the superior imaging and soundstage of speakers that even the Abyss can only hope for, then you can better understand why I feel the way I do.  What about visceral impact?  This is where these speakers fall short but a solution has not been difficult to find.  These monitors can probably extend down to their rated 40Hz in a large volume room but in my near field situation, I doubt they come close to that.  Paired with Omega's fast 8 inch subwoofer, there is nice augmentation of the lower frequencies down to about 28 Hz but the visceral slam isn't there, not to where I can feel it in my chest.  With low volume listening, the loss of bass dynamics is the first thing you notice and for someone who enjoys organ music, this is less than ideal and so this set me off on a search.  I recently auditioned a variety of audiophile class subwoofers designed more for musicality and speed but still with sufficient bass weight.  The REL Gibraltar G-2 with its tuneful 10-inch carbon fiber driver nicely fit the bill over other subwoofers from SVS, Sunfire and Martin Logan but ultimately, the REL couldn't match the JL Audio Fathom F110V2 and this is the subwoofer I ended up buying.  Not only can its 10 inch driver keep up with the AlNiCos, I have read reports from others of how well this subwoofer keeps pace with their electrostats.  Powered by an HFC CT-1 Ultimate mains cable, bass is not only sufficiently weighty and fast but tight.  Furthermore, with its built-in parametric EQ, taming bass peaks in my small listening room proved easier and more effective than I ever believed.  Even with the high pass filter set at 60-80Hz, this subwoofer maintains its musicality and as I increase the sub's gain while lower DAVE's volume, I can fully maintain dynamics, even to the extent that I feel a rumble in my chest.  At louder levels, I prefer to augment more the sub bass region and so I will set the high pass filter to as low as 30-40 Hz and will accordingly lower the gain.  In this fashion, I can recreate an organ recital very satisfyingly as this sub can go down to 19 Hz (+/-6dB).  Because I can feed this sub directly and independently using the DAVE's XLR outputs, it would now appear to my visitors that my DAVE has been custom designed for my purposes.  My one compact sized DAVE with no outboard preamp or amplifiers can now very transparently and satisfyingly drives headphones, speakers and a subwoofer.  Thank you, Rob and John for my custom tailored DAVE.  How did you know?
  
 While my situation is unique and probably won't work for most, I believe it gives a real taste of what is possible with Rob and Chord's upcoming digital amp.  As I listen to the Tallis Scholars' rendering of Allegri's _Miserere_ (24/96 PCM, GImell/Gimell) while I finish writing this post, I remain in disbelief at how good this recording is and how much depth is in this recording.  While I would have loved to have been at the church in Oxford to have experienced this performance live, I am appreciative of the time machine properties of my current system.  Rather than complain about how one thing or another could be better, I believe I have finally reached a stage where I am happy with my setup as it is.  Aside from a few last tweaks (waiting for the LPS-1 PSU for my microRendu, upgrading my HFC headphone device once it is released and then seeing what speaker correction accomplishes through DSP), my system tuning has reached an end and it finally becomes about enjoying music.  I don't know exactly what my larger 2-channel setup will look like when the time comes to earnestly construct it in a couple of years but whatever speakers I decide on, I know it will be driven by one of Rob's digital amplifiers because enjoying what I enjoy now on a nightly basis, there is no going back.  I don't yet know what the DAVINA will bring but because it is being designed to match the performance characteristics of the DAVE, I simply cannot fathom a better situation than the one that I find myself in now.


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## DaveRedRef-III

Romaz I hope your home circumstances resolve themselves positively in due course and you are able to once again contribute to these boards. You will be missed.

Thank you for taking the time to compose that fascinating quest of yours. Some would think that the advent of DAVE would perhaps herald an end to our digital audio quest but it is exactly because DAVE shows us what is possible that it feeds our obsession to eradicate weaknesses in the chain. It's never ending ......but such fun! 

I have recently been studying the various attributes and weaknesses for each form of transducer in order to focus my attention on a suitable candidate which, to my mind, would best suit the more unique attributes of DAVE. i came to the conclusion (for a number of reasons) that 'Ribbon' would provide the sort of speed and detail in particular that I feel is mandatory in order to do justice to Dave in a way which would allow the other attributes to be experienced fully. I am looking forward to testing that theory.

If nothing else this recent preoccupation will provide me with an obsessional pastime to fill the void of waiting for Rob to deliver the perfect power amp for DAVE. ...........(no pressure then Rob.


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## JaZZ

analogmusic said:


> hello does anyone know if the DAVE can be auditioned in Geneva?


 
  
 At least near Geneva – that's where I bought mine.


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## analogmusic

Thank you jazz.
  
 Is the depth of the soundstage of the Dave audible on headphones, or does it need a speaker system?
  
 For Rob Watts : which headphones do you use while on airplanes or indeed anywhere else?
  
 And which portable speakers, if any, do you use in your hotel room?
  
 What is your home hi-fi system which you use with Dave?
  
 Thanks


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## JaZZ

analogmusic said:


> Thank you jazz.
> 
> Is the depth of the soundstage of the Dave audible on headphones, or does it need a speaker system?


 
  
 Oh yes, very well. Particularly with my HE1000, now modified. But you'll also notice the DAVE's phenomenal spatial imaging with other (open) headphones, such as the HD 800.


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## DaveRedRef-III

With regards to Davina, I hope Chord commission a recording (perhaps a remastering using Davina ADC's) to showcase the technology. That would be something worth hearing back through the Dave I think.


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## x RELIC x

jazz said:


> Oh yes, very well. Particularly with my HE1000, now modified. But you'll also notice the DAVE's phenomenal spatial imaging with other (open) headphones, such as the HD 800.




Add Utopia to that list. The depth in particular is fantastic. Width is not overly wide but realistic with the DAVE Utopia pairing, and the imaging is stunning.


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## Crgreen

wmns said:


> Push the menu button followed by pushing the right arrow for a few seconds until the display blinks. This will switch between PCM and DSD. In my case it only works with the right button not the left one.




Thanks. I tried that but no joy with my remote I'm afraid.


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## bigfatpaulie

romaz said:


> Rob, what is most important with the DAVE?


 
  
  
 Aweinspiring.  Thank you so much.  Not just for this, but all your contributions to date.  You are a true asset to the community and you've helped, guided and influenced me on numerous occasions (always for the better).  Thank you for your wisdom, patience and diligence.  I'm so sad to hear you won't be around for a sometime; it is our loss.  I wish you nothing but the very best.
  
 Stay well my friend.
  
 -Paul


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## Crgreen

Likewise. I hope all goes well.


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## Rob Watts

analogmusic said:


> Thank you jazz.
> 
> Is the depth of the soundstage of the Dave audible on headphones, or does it need a speaker system?
> 
> ...


 
 Yes you can hear the depth on HP, but it is suppressed compared to loudspeakers. But instrument inner detail is much better with headphones - I would dearly like the strengths of both.
  
 Headphones - Audioquest Nighthawks - they sound tonally like loudspeakers, and have very low distortion. The Focal Utopia is on my to listen list.
  
 Loudspeakers - a small German brand that is no longer made. They have exceptional bass and extremely good depth.
  
 Chord have a very large number of LS and headphones, so new products get put through lots of differing combinations by the guys at Chord at the prototype stage. 
  
 Rob


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## Rob Watts

daveredref-iii said:


> With regards to Davina, I hope Chord commission a recording (perhaps a remastering using Davina ADC's) to showcase the technology. That would be something worth hearing back through the Dave I think.


 
 I will be doing some initial recordings to mostly test for depth - I plan to have two prototypes, fed with the same mic feed, so I can change the internal configuration and see if noise shaper resolution is the same for DAC's and ADC's - they should be. So this will be natural sounds in my Welsh village - dogs barking, birds, etc. I will test for sounds that are several miles away to close up.
  
 Also, it will be home recordings of guitar and a few other instruments, again with two units with differing internal settings - how else can one do AB testing with an ADC? The other issue is transient reproduction, timing and how this relates to decimation, which is currently very poorly done. I am currently thinking about the best way to consistently and reliably do this. Percussion comes to mind as the best way to do this.
  
 The next stage is to release to professional engineers, and here we have a number of big names lined up, so I won't be dependent on my inexperienced efforts. These recordings will be used for final decimation testing as I will record at 768 kHz then post recording convert down to 44.1 16 bits - and having the original 768 k on hand will be very interesting.
  
 I will be posting more about this once the PCB is finished.
  
 Rob


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## analogmusic

Dear Rob
  
 of course Davina  will benefit future recordings.
  
 I am hoping that older recordings made in hi-res (and of course analog tape) can lead to remastered CD versions which will sound much better?
  
 I am not sure that some recordings made in 44.1/16 can be helped by Davina? The Genesis self titled album (apparently all digital recording) comes to mind, but somehow on vinyl it sounds quite good.
  
 I am not alone in saying we are really looking forward to hear the Davina audio samples
  
 Thank you !


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## DaveRedRef-III

A cheap snare drum might come in handy Rob I would have thought. Twofold really. One the obvious spike transients but two the high resolution required to truly replicate the snare.

This may sound odd but I would also consider testing with recordings of the sea. To my ears the sea lapping on a beach is something ADC's and DACs have a real problem with. There is so much constant high resolution in this sound it shows up the inadequacies of conversion. For me that was a 'stand-out' for DAVE when I first played Quadrophenia by the Who through it. The sound of the sea sounded so much more real than I had ever heard it through other systems including those from Chord.

Anyway just a couple of suggestions fwiw.

Thanks for keeping us in the loop. This is a fascinating project imo.


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## asindc

For those who own the DAVE, please confirm the maximum sample rate through AES.  The DAVE manual from the Chord website says 96, but some posts here and elsewhere say 192.


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## asindc

asindc said:


> For those who own the DAVE, please confirm the maximum sample rate through AES.  The DAVE manual from the Chord website says 96, but some posts here and elsewhere say 192.


 

 Found the answer in post # 1115 of this thread, 192.


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## Smazz

I'm interested in ordering a Chord Dave. I only found one dealer in the US. Is that dealer the only option?


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## Rob Watts

daveredref-iii said:


> A cheap snare drum might come in handy Rob I would have thought. Twofold really. One the obvious spike transients but two the high resolution required to truly replicate the snare.
> 
> This may sound odd but I would also consider testing with recordings of the sea. To my ears the sea lapping on a beach is something ADC's and DACs have a real problem with. There is so much constant high resolution in this sound it shows up the inadequacies of conversion. For me that was a 'stand-out' for DAVE when I first played Quadrophenia by the Who through it. The sound of the sea sounded so much more real than I had ever heard it through other systems including those from Chord.
> 
> ...


 
 Yes but that depends on my non existent playing abilities! But I think I will get one and thanks for the idea. My son is a grade 2 guitarist, and his teacher is very good, so I will be recording them practicing. At the same time it will give a natural voice test too.
  
 One thing I will try is loud fireworks - the initial crack, the LF bloom, and the way the sound reverbs around the valley will be a good test of depth too.
  
 I will be getting wood blocks though - reproducing the timbre of a wood block naturally is quite a challenge, plus you have the initial transient whack which is really difficult to get right. And its something one can play consistently too.
  
 These initial tests will be crucial, so I can optimise the design of the ADC - in terms of the power of the noise shaper, and in how the system decimates from 104 MHz 6 bits back down to 768 kHz 24 bits. In current ADC's this decimation is done very crudely using simple moving average filters.
  
 The microphones I am thinking of using is the Earthworks QT50 using a Schneider disc. This technique has the benefit of recording phase information as well as amplitude differences. Plus using omni-directional mics to my mind is the best way of encoding depth cues - at least that's the advice I have been given. The QT50 is impulse accurate up to 50 kHz too, and is ruler flat from 5 Hz to 50 KHz.
  
 Rob


----------



## EVOLVIST

smazz said:


> I'm interested in ordering a Chord Dave. I only found one dealer in the US. Is that dealer the only option?




Bluebird is the only distributer/dealer in the US. But there are a lot of authorized smalltime dealers that you can seek out. I couldn't even begin to tell you how to find them. I believe someone in this thread pointed one out to me. Post your state and I'm willing to bet someone can help.


----------



## Smazz

evolvist said:


> Bluebird is the only distributer/dealer in the US. But there are a lot of authorized smalltime dealers that you can seek out. I couldn't even begin to tell you how to find them. I believe someone in this thread pointed one out to me. Post your state and I'm willing to bet someone can help.


 

 Thanks for the response, I'm in Miami, FL. I'd appreciate anyone who can point me in the right direction.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

rob watts said:


> Yes but that depends on my non existent playing abilities! But I think I will get one and thanks for the idea. My son is a grade 2 guitarist, and his teacher is very good, so I will be recording them practicing. At the same time it will give a natural voice test too.
> 
> One thing I will try is loud fireworks - the initial crack, the LF bloom, and the way the sound reverbs around the valley will be a good test of depth too.
> 
> ...




You never know you may have hidden talents as a drummer Rob. 

Earthworks QT50 sounds a great mic solution looking at its spec, though I have not used one myself.

I like your 'fireworks' idea also.


----------



## rkt31

recording of some natural panning sounds like train or vehicle going past may also be an idea of testing the abilities of Davina, though recording such sounds may be a bit difficult. imho recording and reproducing the female vocals correctly is also a very difficult task . unlike analog tape any anomaly/ distortion in digital chain is quickly evident in case of female vocals.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

rkt31 said:


> recording of some natural panning sounds like train or vehicle going past may also be an idea of testing the abilities of Davina, though recording such sounds may be a bit difficult. imho recording and reproducing the female vocals correctly is also a very difficult task . unlike analog tape any anomaly/ distortion in digital chain is quickly evident in case of female vocals.




I think 'double tracking' provides a useful example of the limitations found in current ADCs. Even Prism converters sound unnatural in this test. That's why I think Davina could singlehandedly prolong the Red Book protocol, which I am sure we will find is a lot less flawed than people ever imagined.


----------



## Light - Man

rkt31 said:


> *recording* of some natural panning *sounds like train* or vehicle going past may also be an idea of testing the abilities of Davina, though recording such sounds *may be a bit difficult*. imho recording and reproducing the female vocals correctly is also a very difficult task . unlike analog tape any anomaly/ distortion in digital chain is quickly evident in case of female vocals.


 
 Miami train?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Had to laugh at an old speaker review I just converted from a Norwegian reviewer.

He said it has the warm musicality of a couple of big Sonus Fabers, the speed and detail of an electrostatic and the kick-arse bass of a Wilson Audio speaker. .....He decided to see how loud it would go. .... the snare almost gave me bleeding gums and the church organ bass "did something strange with my ability to breath" 

lol

He later complained about getting sea-sick from the organ bass.


----------



## Sunya

rob watts said:


> The microphones I am thinking of using is the Earthworks QT50 using a Schneider disc. This technique has the benefit of recording phase information as well as amplitude differences. Plus using omni-directional mics to my mind is the best way of encoding depth cues - at least that's the advice I have been given. The QT50 is impulse accurate up to 50 kHz too, and is ruler flat from 5 Hz to 50 KHz.


 
  
 Maybe try the Sanken CO-100K with 100kHz bandwidth.
  
 https://www.sanken-mic.com:6015/en/product/product.cfm/3.1000400
  
 You should register at Gearslutz to get input from recording engineers.
  
 https://www.gearslutz.com/board/


----------



## isquirrel

Hope everything is okay, thank you for your contributions they have been the mainstay of this forum. I personally owe you a debt of gratitude for all of the painstaking research you have done. I for one have benefitted from it. 
  
 Thank you my friend.


----------



## Christer

sunya said:


> Maybe try the Sanken CO-100K with 100kHz bandwidth.
> 
> https://www.sanken-mic.com:6015/en/product/product.cfm/3.1000400
> 
> ...


 

 I was going to suggest something similar. Telarc and some  other classical labels use Sanken and DPA and Sennheiser and Thuresson and Bruel and Kjaer and a host of other classic pro mics.
 Maybe the QT 50  is a very good mic? But I have never seen it used at any classical sessions.
 And at least as far as I am concerned,I couldn´t care less how any mic or ADC captures the already high distortion from an  electric guitar or any other synthetic electronic instrument. The only thing that matters to me is how well any HIFI  or  Pro Audio product, can reproduce the human voice and unamplified acoustic instruments singing/playing in a real venue.
 And although there is more compromise. And more  shortcuts  are taken these days recording acoustic music than earlier in spite of at least  theoretically better equipment than in the analogue age,final results are not always better.   
  But Sanken has got a very good reputation among some engineers for being noisefree and with probably the highest bandwidth of any pro mic.
 And although I personally can´t identify anything over 19khz as a tone, I suspect that bandwidth matters.
 If I was aiming to build a the best possible ADC I would get advice from the engineers working with classical music: Not the pop/electronica , acoustically"dead as a dodo" Pop and Rock studio  crowd, who seem to  care  not at all about realistic sound and acoustics and dynamics.
 No wonder most of  what they produce,sounds so terrible when there is no real acoustic captured, most instruments are amplified and musicians with  mics up their nose, at best hear the others  in the studio only via headphones and the dynamic range is only loud,louder and really damagingly loud.
 An experienced engineer in the classical genre once told me at  sessions that to capture for example, a violin or cello with their harmonics intact you shouldn´t put your mics closer than 6-8 metres away from them.


----------



## Rob Watts

The problem with the DPA and Sanken is that there is very significant lift at 20 kHz - and I would prefer ruler flat at 20 k and "only" 50 kHz response. I have checked out gearslutz, and the earthworks has been used for classical to good effect. But to be honest, once I get to the point of testing with proper classical music, the real pro engineers we have lined up will take over.
  
 Rob


----------



## ddanois

Quick question regarding the volume setting on Dave while using an external headphone amp connected via XLR interconnect...
  
 Is there a recommended volume setting for the Dave when using it with a headphone amp (430HA)? Currently, my Dave is set at -15dB while the 430HA is set at 50.0 on high gain and the sound seems balanced but I was wondering if the Dave is supposed to be turned up more to be optimal.
  
 Thanks,
 Derek


----------



## Sunya

rob watts said:


> The problem with the DPA and Sanken is that there is very significant lift at 20 kHz - and I would prefer ruler flat at 20 k and "only" 50 kHz response. I have checked out gearslutz, and the earthworks has been used for classical to good effect. But to be honest, once I get to the point of testing with proper classical music, the real pro engineers we have lined up will take over.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 I believe the raised sensitivity of the Sanken over 20kHz is intentional to compensate for the low amplitude of very high frequencies.


----------



## Sunya

ddanois said:


> Quick question regarding the volume setting on Dave while using an external headphone amp connected via XLR interconnect...
> 
> Is there a recommended volume setting for the Dave when using it with a headphone amp (430HA)? Currently, my Dave is set at -15dB while the 430HA is set at 50.0 on high gain and the sound seems balanced but I was wondering if the Dave is supposed to be turned up more to be optimal.
> 
> ...


 
  
 DAVE in DAC mode is set at -3dB; so I'd try it in DAC mode and the 430HA on low gain.


----------



## ddanois

sunya said:


> DAVE in DAC mode is set at -3dB; so I'd try it in DAC mode and the 430HA on low gain.


 

 Perfect! Thanks for the advice.


----------



## Rob Watts

sunya said:


> rob watts said:
> 
> 
> > The problem with the DPA and Sanken is that there is very significant lift at 20 kHz - and I would prefer ruler flat at 20 k and "only" 50 kHz response. I have checked out gearslutz, and the earthworks has been used for classical to good effect. But to be honest, once I get to the point of testing with proper classical music, the real pro engineers we have lined up will take over.
> ...


 
 Yes and that's the problem - one of the depth cues is frequency content, so the brain takes account of the air's HF loss - thus bright sounds sounds closer, and sounds that are distant and so have more HF absorption and so more depth. A bright sounding mic will not help and will foreshorten depth perception. Note I do not want to do any EQ with this project, it has to be as simple and direct as possible.
  
 Additionally, the polar response is crucial too - with the QT50 its within 5 dB all angles, so reflected energy won't have a large response variation. Actually the 50 in FR response is amazingly flat from 4 hz to 40 kHz only -1dB down. The impulse response is also superb.
  
 But thanks for your suggestion, I had not heard of Sanken.
  
 Rob


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Have just been listening to Sinatra on his Platinum Collection CD compilation. The very last song on the third CD is a 2003 remaster of 'One For My Baby'. There is a wonderful distant recording of the piano in the far right of the recording hall. It shows off the depth capabilities of DAVE quite well I think. What I Was surprised by though is the vocal because it sounds modern in the frequency band and high resolution warmth and clarity. It is so good I thought it must be at least a 70's recording but upon checking it was recorded 25th June 1958. I think this vocal recording is almost up there with Buddy Holly's 'True Love Ways' and worth a listen if any Sinatra lovers do not already have it in their collection. A wonderful, intimate vocal recording with distant piano, occasional close recorded Alto Sax and soft strings

Just thought I would mention it for those interested


----------



## Christer

rob watts said:


> The problem with the DPA and Sanken is that there is very significant lift at 20 kHz - and I would prefer ruler flat at 20 k and "only" 50 kHz response. I have checked out gearslutz, and the earthworks has been used for classical to good effect. But to be honest, once I get to the point of testing with proper classical music, the real pro engineers we have lined up will take over.
> 
> Rob


 

 Very  nice to hear.
 I have heard rumours of  Sanken sounding too bright in typical spot/close mic situations.Mic ´ing I wish engineers wouldn´t use with any mics really.And I  also know of some who at least used to employ a typical 2dB treble lift where none was needed, just to beef things up a bit.
 Really nice to know that you are above such cheap tricks.But it seems  Telarc´s former recording engineer liked the Sanken.
 Anyway, very comforting to hear that this project has not been geared towards  the mainstream pop/rock studio scene.
 Talking both bandwidth and transients : Indonesian/Balinese Gamelan music is probably the most demanding and most difficult music to record I can think of.
 And like cymbals,triangle and some other percussion in the traditional symphonic orchestra there seem to be harmonics reaching the 100khz limit or even above from some of those gongs and bells and metal sheets  used in a Gamelan Orchestra.
 It is also some of the most  rythmically complex music of all.
 Absolutely intoxicating  music heard live.
 I tried recording some on Bali, with a  16/48khz SONY DAT, but it certainly did not capture the amazing hf energy of some of those instruments anywhere near how they sounded live.
 The only  really decent  recordings I have heard of that demanding music are  analogue.
 I hope you will upload some test tracks from Davina here, in due time.
 I am getting a bit busy downloading music for my coming winter in the Tropics. Mainly old classic recordings like Karajan´s Wagner Ring and today Böhm´s classic DGG Zauberflöte.


----------



## Christer

daveredref-iii said:


> Have just been listening to Sinatra on his Platinum Collection CD compilation. The very last song on the third CD is a 2003 remaster of 'One For My Baby'. There is a wonderful distant recording of the piano in the far right of the recording hall. It shows off the depth capabilities of DAVE quite well I think. What I Was surprised by though is the vocal because it sounds modern in the frequency band and high resolution warmth and clarity. It is so good I thought it must be at least a 70's recording but upon checking it was recorded 25th June 1958. I think this vocal recording is almost up there with Buddy Holly's 'True Love Ways' and worth a listen if any Sinatra lovers do not already have it in their collection. A wonderful, intimate vocal recording with distant piano, occasional close recorded Alto Sax and soft strings
> 
> Just thought I would mention it for those interested


 

 Among the  classic RCA recordings  from the late 50s I have the original Living Stereo LP of Belafonte  LIVE in Carnegie Hall.
 It still sounds amazingly good for its age and beats most modern popular studio recordings in every respect that counts for me. It sounds like music and Belafonte´s voice sounds  both very realistic and three-dimensional via my electrostatic speakers.
 One of those magic old recordings where you feel you could almost walk up behind the singer on stage.
 Recordings like that are few and very far between these days of acoustically "dead as a dodo" studio takes.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

christer said:


> Among the  classic RCA recordings  from the late 50s I have the original Living Stereo LP of Belafonte  LIVE in Carnegie Hall.
> It still sounds amazingly good for its age and beats most modern popular studio recordings in every respect that counts for me. It sounds like music and Belafonte´s voice sounds  both very realistic and three-dimensional via my electrostatic speakers.
> One of those magic old recordings where you feel you could almost walk up behind the singer on stage.
> Recordings like that are few and very far between these days of acoustically "dead as a dodo" studio takes.




You must take very good care of your vinyl Christer but I guess I would if I had something so special.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

gomiki said:


> A retailer recommend is to use the new excellent Chord SPM 1050 MKII Power amp with the Chord DAVE. He say this combination will be awesome.
> 
> In fact is this combination....
> 
> [VIDEO]https://youtu.be/ZGujLm-5wUw[/VIDEO]




Gomiki
If you do try the Chord SPM 1050 Mkii amp in your system I would recommend you use a couple of stillpoints or equivalent under the bottom plate. Chord isolation is very good but regardless, when you have a large thin metal plate across the bottom of a unit, no amount of damping on the chassis will stop vibration of that plate caused by airborn sound waves. I have found that anchoring the plate to some form of isolation gadget will have a profound affect on focus, punch and musicality. The Chord amps are imo superb technical designs and capable of great speed and insight. This small isolation assistance helps the amp shine imo. 

I had the same problem with the big plate under the Red Reference III


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

To continue, if you are playing something as detailed as DAVE though the amp, this isolation measure is akin to upgrading your amp again. It is that noticeable (so long as the rest of your system is well isolated.)

Tbh I am surprised that Chord didn't engineer a single strut across the underside of the unit and fix the plate in the centre. The cost would be far outweighed by extra sales on sq grounds. However it can be easily remedied by the audiophile.


----------



## Lotusman

Further Isolation Using Acoustic Revive TB-38 Platform and fo.Q HEM-25 B and S Footers. PranaWire Photon USB cable.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

You obviously take isolation seriously lotus man. I use VertexAQ granite platforms on pucks and stillpoints mainly


----------



## EVOLVIST

Tonight I experienced a weird thing with my DAVE. It was called Robert Johnson (1911-1938). There's this Centennial Collection of all of his recordings in the best sound quality possible. The are mono recordings, and decidedly not audiophile grade, as they were all recorded in portable gear, with one mic, in various hotel rooms in Texas.

I have heard these recordings many times.

Tonight, with the DAVE, they took on entirely different demensions. Indeed, they didn't even sound mono. You could hear the room, just plaster walls, covered in paper...and that voice? I've never heard it so plaintive, so stirring, and captivating, even with all of its flaws. I don't think I've ever heard anything like it.

So, yeah, the DAVE just elevated 1936 & 1937 recordings to something near miraculous.


----------



## Smazz

evolvist said:


> Tonight I experienced a weird thing with my DAVE. It was called Robert Johnson (1911-1938). There's this Centennial Collection of all of his recordings in the best sound quality possible. The are mono recordings, and decidedly not audiophile grade, as they were all recorded in portable gear, with one mic, in various hotel rooms in Texas.
> 
> I have heard these recordings many times.
> 
> ...


 

 Lurking in this thread is gonna end up costing me a lot of money. I'm doing my best to learn most of what you guys are talking about. At times I figure I don't deserve something like the Dave cause I don't understand everything in this thread. Then I read impressions like this and get the itch again.


----------



## analogmusic

Hello everyone
  
 Where can a friend of mine audition the Chord Dave in London, UK?


----------



## gnomen

I bought my Chord TT from these people: http://www.hifilounge.co.uk/   (And of course they have the Dave on demo as well).  Very helpful with space for good listening rooms and quiet backgrounds.  They are in the countryside about an hour's drive north of London.  They also have a fabulous range of high end headphones BTW.


----------



## EVOLVIST

analogmusic said:


> Hello everyone
> 
> Where can a friend of mine audition the Chord Dave in London, UK?




In London.

http://www.audiosanctuary.co.uk/?subcats=Y&pcode_from_q=Y&pshort=N&pfull=N&pname=Y&pkeywords=Y&search_performed=Y&match=all&q=dave&dispatch=products.search


----------



## Toolman

+1 for Audio Sactuary


----------



## STR-1

analogmusic said:


> Hello everyone
> 
> Where can a friend of mine audition the Chord Dave in London, UK?



Swiss Cottage Sound & Vision if you want something more in town http://www.scsav.co.uk


----------



## Jawed

Make sure to call the dealer to make sure it's actually there! Swiss Cottage Sound and Vision had recently sold one when I dropped in and so didn't have one for a couple of weeks. I was merely strolling past and enquired on the off-chance I could have a quick listen.


----------



## gnomen

Those of us in the UK can still listen to a number of last summer's Prom concerts on the BBC iPlayer. A good example is Maher's 7th, Simon Rattle & BPO. It has a full range of orchestral timbres, cowbells in the distance, even the occasional cough from the audience (which you would normally hear only with headphones). My TT reproduces it all beautifully. When I close my eyes, I could be there - albeit in the best seat. 

The ability of Rob's DACs to get the best from modest inputs - the iPlayer audio stream, the BT YouView set top box, or 16/44 red book CD is something reviewers should praise more. Not only do the DACs perform well in the absolute sense, under ideal conditions, they deliver the best from a wide range of variable sources and materials.


----------



## hieukm

Hi guys,

Is this correct that i cant add external clock to my Dave?


----------



## lovethatsound

hieukm said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Is this correct that i cant add external clock to my Dave?


Yes you are right.


----------



## x RELIC x

hieukm said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Is this correct that i cant add external clock to my Dave?





lovethatsound said:


> Yes you are right.




Curious why you would want to. Rob has stated in this thread that it's not necessary at all with his designs, and that his approach eliminates the need.


----------



## hieukm

x relic x said:


> Curious why you would want to. Rob has stated in this thread that it's not necessary at all with his designs, and that his approach eliminates the need.


 
  
 I am hearing some improvements going from
  
 - IFI (power by JS-2) to Dave's USB.
 - IFI (power by JS-2) to Hydra-Z(power by JS-2) to Dave's AES.
 - Adding FMC to isolate my Ethernet connection to PC.
 (All components were plugged into a Torus AVR 20. The DAC/preamp even go through a Furutech FTP 615(plugged into the Torus) for futher elimination of EMI/RF)
  
 Some of the above may contradict with some of Rob's statement
  
 - Source jitters dont matter.
 - Dave's USB is galvanic isolated.
  
 Eventually, it led me to wonder if the Dave can benefit from additional external clock.


----------



## Rob Watts

x relic x said:


> hieukm said:
> 
> 
> > Hi guys,
> ...


 
  
 In the past, (DAC64 and QBD76) I had a buffer system, so the data could be clocked out using the local crystal master clock. If you wanted to use video though, then you had to use the analogue PLL system, which gave much poorer SQ and measurable problems. I had spent many years improving PLL's but there are some issues you just can't solve, such as low frequency jitter - and low frequency jitter is very audible, and measurable as it creates fringing on FFT's (fringing is where if you play back 1 kHz, you should just see a sharp 1 kHz component - but the FFT will show a spreading and not a single 1 kHz line). The fringing is due to the PLL drifting in low frequency terms as it maintains lock.
  
 Because video is very important to me, I wanted a system that would eliminate the PLL SQ problems, and so I developed the DPLL system that you can find on all my DAC's - and it took many years to perfect. But what it means is that when you do a listening test between the DPLL and the buffer system, it sounded almost identical - I struggled to hear a difference. Given the problems of transmitting clocks back (ground and noise issues), I felt that it was better now not to use word clocks from Dave to the source.
  
 Now using an external clock to run Dave's master clock would be a completely crazy thing to do, as you cannot transmit 104 MHz with no added jitter. So you have to use local PLL's, and although these can be made to have fS of cycle to cycle jitter, thus giving you wonderful marketing copy, they are awful for low frequency jitter. Now the benefits of pulse array is that because the array is internally cancelled (rising edges is matched by a falling edge pulse) it is innately much less sensitive to master clock jitter. But like all DAC's there is nothing I can do about LF drift as the PLL jumps up and down in maintaining lock. So an external clock would make the measurements worse (more fringing) and the sound quality bright (reduce fringing and it sounds warmer and more natural). I think this is why people "like" external clocks - because when they get added things sound brighter, and its very easy to confuse a brighter sound due to more distortion with a truly more transparent sound.
  
 I hope that explains why I don't use external master clocks or transmit word clocks.
  
 Rob


----------



## analogmusic

> The ability of Rob's DACs to get the best from modest inputs - the iPlayer audio stream, the BT YouView set top box, or 16/44 red book CD is something reviewers should praise more. Not only do the DACs perform well in the absolute sense, under ideal conditions, they deliver the best from a wide range of variable sources and materials.


 
  
 personally I think most reviewers miss the whole point of the Rob's DACs - the musical aspect of them, and how they get the emotional part of music right.
  
 There isn't much point listening to music if the emotional aspect of the instruments and voices are not rendered properly.


----------



## halloweenman

Rob Watts or anyone else that can help! I have a bass frequency bump issue in my listening room around 45Hz. Do you know of any good quality low shelf filter software (apple audio unit plug in would be ideal) that could help me without degrading sound quality? I use audirvana software player. Thanks.


----------



## Arpiben

rob watts said:


> In the past, (DAC64 and QBD76) I had a buffer system, so the data could be clocked out using the local crystal master clock. If you wanted to use video though, then you had to use the analogue PLL system, which gave much poorer SQ and measurable problems. I had spent many years improving PLL's but there are some issues you just can't solve, such as low frequency jitter - and low frequency jitter is very audible, and measurable as it creates fringing on FFT's (fringing is where if you play back 1 kHz, you should just see a sharp 1 kHz component - but the FFT will show a spreading and not a single 1 kHz line). The fringing is due to the PLL drifting in low frequency terms as it maintains lock.
> 
> Because video is very important to me, I wanted a system that would eliminate the PLL SQ problems, and so I developed the DPLL system that you can find on all my DAC's - and it took many years to perfect. But what it means is that when you do a listening test between the DPLL and the buffer system, it sounded almost identical - I struggled to hear a difference. Given the problems of transmitting clocks back (ground and noise issues), I felt that it was better now not to use word clocks from Dave to the source.
> 
> ...


 

  Please at which value in ns do you estimate that LF drifts or LF jitter are audible ?
 Just curious since I am used to deal with them in non audio applications (Telecom).
 Thanks.
 Rgds.


----------



## rkt31

@halloweenman, the most elegant solution of eliminating bass peaks is toeing in of speakers. you must have kept your speakers straight firing. toe in until you get best balance between bass and treble. more toe in than necessary will make vocal sibilant. less toe in will cause boomy bass. it's something like if you can't have non parallel side walls to avoid standing waves , make the speakers non parallel.


----------



## halloweenman

thanks rkt31, the speakers are pretty much already fully toed in, firing to just behind the listening position. the eq really is a last resort as i have tried pretty much everything now.


----------



## Crgreen

analogmusic said:


> personally I think most reviewers miss the whole point of the Rob's DACs - the musical aspect of them, and how they get the emotional part of music right.
> 
> There isn't much point listening to music if the emotional aspect of the instruments and voices are not rendered properly.




In fairness, the reviews I've read do draw attention to this, though not perhaps using the same words, but stress the ease and naturalness of replay. I've got extraordinary results from MP3s@320 and lower on the Hugo and the Dave - utterly engrossing, and of older recordings too, such as Furtwangler Brahms.


----------



## halloweenman

anyone using jriver room correction or eq to reduce bass boom?


----------



## ecwl

halloweenman said:


> anyone using jriver room correction or eq to reduce bass boom?


 

 I do. I run Windows PCs. I optimized my room setup but still couldn't get rid of a bass peak from my left speaker at around 50Hz. I bought an XTZ Room Analyzer Pro (not compatible with Mac) to measure the bass peak and it calculated that I need to run a parametric EQ at 53Hz with Q of 18.5 and -11.8dB to remove the bass peak. I set that in JRiver and that virtually fixed the problem. I always presumed Audirvana would have a similar feature. I wish I didn't have to use EQ with Chord DAVE but I've really optimized my room, seat and speaker setup to the best of my abilities without turning my living room into a hi-fi shop.
  
 My take is that to do effective parametric EQ, you need to measure precisely. Any guesswork would just make the situation worse. I think you can go to miniDSP website and order a USB microphone UMIK-1
 https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1
 And then you can download the freeware Room EQ Wizard
 http://www.roomeqwizard.com/
 Learning how to use Room EQ Wizard is the biggest challenge but once you get the hang of it, you should be able to get it to recommend what parametric EQ you should apply for that 45Hz peak. I thought I wouldn't be able to figure it out so I bought the XTZ Room Analyzer but I have some friends who needed help so I ended up learning how to use Room EQ Wizard for the same and more advanced functionalities. In fact, I now personally believe that all high-end audiophiles with speaker setups should own their own real-time analyzer.


----------



## watermad

I'm a very happy Chord DAVE DAC owner of approximately 4 months and was wondering how fellow DAVE owners have it connected to their speakers.
  
 I have been primarily connecting it in DAC mode running through my Music First Audio Classic MKII Passive Transformer pre-amplifier as I still listen to vinyl and during a short A-B of the DAVE in DAC v Pre-amplifier found I lost some dynamics with the DAVE using its pre-amplifier.
  
 I understand this is counter intuitive as the DAVE in pre-amplifier mode should be more direct, however my MFA pre-amplifier is as neutral as you can get, I will do more exhaustive A-B listening in the immediate future, however was wondering how other DAVE owners had configured it in their speaker setup?


----------



## halloweenman

thanks ecwl, i tried audirvana with apple low shelf filter audio unit and it just killed the music. i'll try jriver.


----------



## ecwl

halloweenman said:


> thanks ecwl, i tried audirvana with apple low shelf filter audio unit and it just killed the music. i'll try jriver.


 

 I think this is what I meant. I don't think Audirvana killed the music because you were using a low-shelf filter. I think it killed the music because you over-corrected for the bass peak with the low-shelf filter. So you might have reduced the 40Hz peak let's say but incidentally, you have also reduced your bass output between say 20-35Hz and 42-48Hz. The solution is to measure it so that you can accurately remove the specific problematic frequencies without touching the non-problematic frequencies. There is no good way of doing that without the proper measurement tools. Considering the cost of Chord DAVE, the price of a USB microphone and the time spent learning Room EQ Wizard is probably super worth it.


----------



## JaZZ

watermad said:


> I'm a very happy Chord DAVE DAC owner of approximately 4 months and was wondering how fellow DAVE owners have it connected to their speakers.
> 
> I have been primarily connecting it in DAC mode running through my Music First Audio Classic MKII Passive Transformer pre-amplifier as I still listen to vinyl and during a short A-B of the DAVE in DAC v Pre-amplifier found I lost some dynamics with the DAVE using its pre-amplifier.
> 
> I understand this is counter intuitive as the DAVE in pre-amplifier mode should be more direct, however my MFA pre-amplifier is as neutral as you can get, I will do more exhaustive A-B listening in the immediate future, however was wondering how other DAVE owners had configured it in their speaker setup?


 
  
 I don't listen to speakers (anymore), so can't offer any ideas. But since you mentioned your transformer-based passive «pre-amp», you should be aware that transformers like that generate harmonic distortion – they aren't really «as neutral as it gets». Those will most likely be the cause of the perceived additional «dynamics».


----------



## pkcpga

halloweenman said:


> thanks rkt31, the speakers are pretty much already fully toed in, firing to just behind the listening position. the eq really is a last resort as i have tried pretty much everything now.




Have you tried just moving the speakers a few more inches away from the wall or making sure they are sturdy on the ground or stand.


----------



## Rob Watts

> Please at which value in ns do you estimate that LF drifts or LF jitter are audible ?
> Just curious since I am used to deal with them in non audio applications (Telecom).
> Thanks.
> Rgds.


 
  
 Take a look at the J-test plot from Dave:

  
 You can see the skirting at the bottom as the 12 kHz tone merges into the noise floor. So at -160 dB its a spread of about +/- 20 Hz. This level is about 1 pS of 20 Hz low freq jitter. Unfortunately, the APX 555 test equipment itself creates skirts - due to the ADC and the FFT windowing function, and its dominated by this rather than Dave.
  
 In terms of skirting being audible, then if it gets measurably worse than this, then I have in the past (only just) heard it as it sounding brighter. Its very curious that such small low frequency jitter is audible and that it sounds like noise floor modulation. Of course it looks a bit like noise floor modulation, but only around the actual signal; normal noise floor modulation is the whole noise floor 20 Hz to 20 kHz pumping up and down.
  
 Rob


----------



## Arpiben

Rob Watts
Many thanks for the precious information.
Once Davina will be ready, do you think we can still improve Dave's general performance? Probably my nonsense, but I was wondering if by knowing Davina's signature or Transfer function, Dave could push even further its limits.
Regards.


----------



## rkt31

@halloweenman, try placing speakers away from wall and you can even put foam bungs in the bass ports of speakers. i have kef r300 and had to put foam bung in the rear bass ports to match with my monitor audio rsw12 sub crossover. the results were much more tight bass and better focus.


----------



## halloweenman

hi ecwl i measured it both with my ears and level meter and using usb microphone and room eq wizard and all agreed the 45hz bump. i will try what you suggest with eq and q value once i get the correction data from room eq wizard.

does it matter which plugin\audio unit you use or are they all the same sound quality?


----------



## halloweenman

rjt31 and pkcpga the speakers are sealed design and already placed best i can. changing placement does not seem to resolve problem. i have 3 solid brick walls out of 4 leaving very little area for the bass to be absorbed.


----------



## halloweenman

rob watts, would there be any benefit in including an eq feature in the dac itself, such as low shelf filter, so that those with room bass boom issues could optimise sound? or would this distroy transparancy and sq?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

watermad said:


> I'm a very happy Chord DAVE DAC owner of approximately 4 months and was wondering how fellow DAVE owners have it connected to their speakers.
> 
> I have been primarily connecting it in DAC mode running through my Music First Audio Classic MKII Passive Transformer pre-amplifier as I still listen to vinyl and during a short A-B of the DAVE in DAC v Pre-amplifier found I lost some dynamics with the DAVE using its pre-amplifier.
> 
> I understand this is counter intuitive as the DAVE in pre-amplifier mode should be more direct, however my MFA pre-amplifier is as neutral as you can get, I will do more exhaustive A-B listening in the immediate future, however was wondering how other DAVE owners had configured it in their speaker setup?




Watermad
Some of the following, you may have already done so I apologise in advance If it sounds like I am trying to teach my grandmother how to suck eggs. 
I have the MFA Baby Reference MkII but I do not use it with Dave. Another set of interconnects and a passive pre-amp (albeit possibly the worlds best analogue preamp) in the chain will inevitably degrade the sound given the level DAVE works at. Given your experience I would guess the following may be an issue:

a) you may have a grounding or hum problem with your electrics. The baby reference has two ground lifts, one for 'in' connections and one for 'out'. My system (pre ownership of DAVE) was greatly improved with these lifts and, as Rob always predicts, my sound became warmer and more natural when when using these ground lifts. This was a sure sign i had problems with my electrics and I suspect you may have a similar problem. I tested this further with a single Isotek 'Synchro' mains lead feeding my Chord SPM1200 MkII power amp with the MFA in the chain and ground lifted. (The Synchro is no ordinary mains lead. It cancels mains hum.) Sure enough the dynamic change, particularly speed, was startling. I then went on to purchase another Synchro and Isotek Sigmas to cover my whole system. This brings us on to b)

b) Isolation:
I use VertexAQ platforms and Stillpoints for my isolation. Why both?, because ground based vibration is just one of the problems. CD players, hard disk sources etc create their own vibrations and music creates airborne vibrations too. The stillpoints provide an anchor of sorts for these later vibration problems. Last week in a post here I highlighted the degradation caused by thin metal sheets used as bottom plates underneath my CD player and power amp. They shimmer. Anyway the great thing about DAVE is the better you sort you electrics and improve your isolation the better DAVE sounds. In the old days, much of the above hid the weakness in our dac sound and we were glad of it!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Btw guys, here is a wacky tip which I found out by accident. If you have a pretty live room, in regards to reflections, try putting 3 coats of Farrow and Ball paint on the walls. 

It won't do as much as serious room acoustic treatment or a heavy wallpaper but there is so much 'chalk' in their paint it does help calm the brightness down a little.


----------



## watermad

Hi Dave Red Ref,
 Thanks for the feedback, I checkout your profile and you have a well sorted system, some similarities to mine, albeit more advanced, Sonus Faber speakers and MFA passive pre!
  
 Yes I have used isolation, imported an audio rack from South Africa, decoupled design, they are out of business now I think, Soundations. I also have Nordost SortFut feet on the rack, and Track Audio isolation feet on my speakers, however my electrics with ground loop maybe an issue as the MFA takes hum out of the equation. I do have dedicated audiophile power cords and power extensions though.
  
 Your MFA Baby MKII is a rung above my Classic MKIIm did you ever A-B it against the DAVE in pre mode?
  
 I take it you don't listen to vinyl, I have a large collection so would have to find a decent phono to digital converter, as a lot of my music hasn't been re-leased on CD or available as a download .
  
 Regards
 David


----------



## ubs28

halloweenman said:


> rob watts, would there be any benefit in including an eq feature in the dac itself, such as low shelf filter, so that those with room bass boom issues could optimise sound? or would this distroy transparancy and sq?




Why honestly? You have specialized companies who design EQ's very good.

Also some speakers have EQ's. It is not the job of the DAC to correct for the room.


----------



## Rob Watts

halloweenman said:


> rob watts, would there be any benefit in including an eq feature in the dac itself, such as low shelf filter, so that those with room bass boom issues could optimise sound? or would this distroy transparancy and sq?


 
 The honest answer is I am not sure. I have designed DSP bi-quads to go into chips before, and it is a challenge to get right. IIR bi-quads use tiny coefficients (for bass) in a continuous loop that is constantly truncated, so low level distortion can easily become a major issue.Given that Dave works to a digital domain accuracy of 350dB, in order to make each module transparent, then this is certainly a challenge to keep this level of performance. It certainly suggests why some people prefer different EQ software. So my advice is to try it and if its better for you, run with it. But don't make the assumption that because its digital it will be perfectly transparent.
  
 Rob


----------



## phonyx

watermad said:


> I'm a very happy Chord DAVE DAC owner of approximately 4 months and was wondering how fellow DAVE owners have it connected to their speakers.
> 
> I have been primarily connecting it in DAC mode running through my Music First Audio Classic MKII Passive Transformer pre-amplifier as I still listen to vinyl and during a short A-B of the DAVE in DAC v Pre-amplifier found I lost some dynamics with the DAVE using its pre-amplifier.
> 
> I understand this is counter intuitive as the DAVE in pre-amplifier mode should be more direct, however my MFA pre-amplifier is as neutral as you can get, I will do more exhaustive A-B listening in the immediate future, however was wondering how other DAVE owners had configured it in their speaker setup?




I don't yet have a DAVE (still saving) but I have tested a number of DAC's with both analogue and digital volume controls thus enabling them to used as preamps, in my 2 channel system. 

While some aspects of the sound seem to improve running DAC direct to the power amp (Pass Labs X250.5) like the sharpness of the attack on acoustic guitar notes, I find the soundstage collapses vertically and narrows horizontally, with less sense of instrument placement within the soundstage. There is also what seems to be an added brightness, albeit slight. To me they are the most noticeable differences. 

Was the smaller sound stage and blurred instrument position information 'real' ie: more true to the recording and what the preamp adds 'synthetic'? Is my preamp warming up the sound? I don't know. But I listen to music for enjoyment and I'm yet to hear a DAC that to me sounds better direct than running through my preamp.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Watermad
I didn't AB due to lack of space and but it would be interesting to try. I will dig out my MFA BRII when I get the chance. I doubt that will be before the Ryder Cup though!


----------



## analogmusic

question for Rob Watts :
  
 Why do normal delta sigma dacs (and also R2R maybe?) sound mechanical and robotic compared to Chord Dacs?


----------



## JaZZ

phonyx said:


> watermad said:
> 
> 
> > I'm a very happy Chord DAVE DAC owner of approximately 4 months and was wondering how fellow DAVE owners have it connected to their speakers.
> ...


 
  
 There's one specific scenario where adding a headphone amp to the DAVE for a headphone it could easily drive with respect to the power reserves theoretically could yield some benefit: power peaks straining the internal power supply, whereas the external amp is able to supply the corresponding power easier and faster. So this advantage is able to outweigh the complication of the signal path due to additional electronics with their own harmonic-distortion pattern. It's just a theoretical scenario, and I don't give much credit to it.
  
 Now, adding a preamplifier to the DAVE for «driving» a power amplifier's input makes even less sense. Both power amp and preamp have about the same input impedance (let's say between 25 and 100 kΩ). So there's no way for the preamp to «disburden» the DAVE's output stage: In both cases it has to «drive» about the same load. Hence the bitter thruth is that your preamp adds euphonic distortion, making the sound more forgiving (and less transparent, also to tonal flaws in the chain).
  
 But you're not alone in this situation. Years ago, during my extensive speaker-builder phase, I replaced my then preamp (I believe it was a Conrad Johnson PV6) by a homegrown, resistor-based passive attenuator. The higher accuracy and transparency were immediately noticeable, but it was a desaster nonetheless: My carefully fine-tuned speaker prototypes suddenly sounded out of balance. So the crossover-network needed some (time-consuming) rework and even higher perfectionism. After that the system sounded better than before. It's a phenomenon I'm meanwhile quite familiar with – as someone who only listens through headphones these days. I have to mention that I use equalizing for all of my headphones. With a headphone amp in the signal chain, the sound is fine with all of them from the start, but gets even better with a matching EQ curve. Without the amp, driven by one of my Chord DACs, the EQ curves are much more critical, thus I have to take much more care for a satisfying result. But it will be better than through any of my amps in the end.
  
 I'm not sure if that's of any help for you, especially if you renounce equalizing for some reason or the other, which still leaves you dependent on the synergetic effect from your preamp in the form of forgivingness and warming. I don't think a forgiving cable would be a good idea either, as it would reduce transparency as well.


----------



## phonyx

jazz said:


> There's one specific scenario where adding a headphone amp to the DAVE for a headphone it could easily drive with respect to the power reserves theoretically could yield some benefit: power peaks straining the internal power supply, whereas the external amp is able to supply the corresponding power easier and faster. So this advantage is able to outweigh the complication of the signal path due to additional electronics with their own harmonic-distortion pattern. It's just a theoretical scenario, and I don't give much credit to it.
> 
> Now, adding a preamplifier to the DAVE for «driving» a power amplifier's input makes even less sense. Both power amp and preamp have about the same input impedance (let's say between 25 and 100 kΩ). So there's no way for the preamp to «disburden» the DAVE's output stage: In both cases it has to «drive» about the same load. Hence the bitter thruth is that your preamp adds euphonic distortion, making the sound more forgiving (and less transparent, also to tonal flaws in the chain).
> 
> ...




Hmm interesting. what about the lack of soundstage and poor sense of instrument placement running DAC direct? My criticisms weren't just of harder/sharper tonality, the soundstage collapses without my preamp in place. Perhaps the DAVE won't have this issue?

I'd like to know if Rob has AB'd the DAVE as DAC direct vs a Chord preamp


----------



## rkt31

driving a power amp directly through chord dacs takes some time of getting used to the sound. I feed my hugo directly to a power amp which has low gain setting . and I would say imho initially the combo sounded a bit forward . I use speakers instead of headphones though. analog attenuation affects the higher frequencies and also the phase distortion ( as far as I know ) therefore music loses some pace at low volumes. digital attenuation does not have this problem. however too much digital attenuation reduces resolution. in case of Dave and even hugo/mojo the digital volume control has much more accuracy and does not lose bits even at very low volumes.


----------



## ubs28

phonyx said:


> Hmm interesting. what about the lack of soundstage and poor sense of instrument placement running DAC direct? My criticisms weren't just of harder/sharper tonality, the soundstage collapses without my preamp in place. Perhaps the DAVE won't have this issue?
> 
> I'd like to know if Rob has AB'd the DAVE as DAC direct vs a Chord preamp




What you need a pre-amp for if you can use the Dave also as a pre-amp? So basically you're looking to have an other pre-amp on top of a pre-amp. Doesn't make much sense to me.

But if you're worried about sound quality loss, best is to take your pre-amp with you to someone who has a Chord Dave and listen for differences. That is best way to get your answer.


----------



## phonyx

rkt31 said:


> driving a power amp directly through chord dacs takes some time of getting used to the sound. I feed my hugo directly to a power amp which has low gain setting . and I would say imho initially the combo sounded a bit forward . I use speakers instead of headphones though. analog attenuation affects the higher frequencies and also the phase distortion ( as far as I know ) therefore music loses some pace at low volumes. digital attenuation does not have this problem. however too much digital attenuation reduces resolution. in case of Dave and even hugo/mojo the digital volume control has much more accuracy and does not lose bits even at very low volumes.




My current DAC in the HiFi system is a NAD M51. It has a digital volume that doesn't lose resolution until -66 db. That is basically inaudiblely soft. 

Connected direct to the power amp sounds as you describe, forward. As I said before it's also hard, a little bright, and has poor soundstage. Many reviews of DAC's that have volume attenuation have their capabilities as a preamp tested and I've yet to find a reviewer who found DAC-direct better overall. If you're aware of any that prefer it please link me!




ubs28 said:


> What you need a pre-amp for if you can use the Dave also as a pre-amp? So basically you're looking to have an other pre-amp on top of a pre-amp. Doesn't make much sense to me.
> 
> But if you're worried about sound quality loss, best is to take your pre-amp with you to someone who has a Chord Dave and listen for differences. That is best way to get your answer.




The DAVE, as I understand it, is a DAC that also has a headphone amp function and preamp function. I have a woo audio WA5 and I don't think much this side of 9k AUD touches it for driving my HE1000's. I won't be moving it on when I get a DAVE DAC, I'll be running the DAVE into it. I won't be using the DAVE in the HIFI initially but would be interested in hearing from people who have used it as a preamp vs using it as a DAC only. 

My point I guess is that it might be a world leading DAC but an average headamp (vs something decent like a Cavalli LAu or Woo WA5) and an OK Preamp. I don't know as I haven't seen those aspects of it specifically discussed and compared with reasonably high end competitors. On that note I am yet to see a review of a volume attenuating DAC that anyone preferred direct into power amps vs using a preamp. From what I've read the sound is sweeter, airier, natural and spacious with a dedicated preamp. 

I don't know anyone with a DAVE so i cant hear one for myself yet. Hope that makes sense.


----------



## x RELIC x

phonyx said:


> My current DAC in the HiFi system is a NAD M51. It has a digital volume that doesn't lose resolution until -66 db. That is basically inaudiblely soft.
> 
> Connected direct to the power amp sounds as you describe, forward. As I said before it's also hard, a little bright, and has poor soundstage. Many reviews of DAC's that have volume attenuation have their capabilities as a preamp tested and I've yet to find a reviewer who found DAC-direct better overall. If you're aware of any that prefer it please link me!
> The DAVE, as I understand it, is a DAC that also has a headphone amp function and preamp function. I have a woo audio WA5 and I don't think much this side of 9k AUD touches it for driving my HE1000's. I won't be moving it on when I get a DAVE DAC. I won't be using the DAVE in the HIFI initially but would be interested in hearing from people who have used it as a preamp vs using it as a DAC only. *My point I guess is that it might be a world leading DAC but an average headamp and Preamp*. I don't know as I haven't seen those aspects of it specifically discussed and compared. I don't know anyone with a DAVE so i cant hear one for myself yet. Hope that makes sense.




That's the thing you don't understand. The DAVE, as with all of Chord's current DACs, does not have any sperate pre-amp or amp built in. The genius behind the design is that you are hearing the line out from the DAC 100% of the time, even through the headphones. In fact the RCA out and headphone out basically share the same path. The volume is digitally controlled. 

Rob has designed it this way for the sake of transparency as the more components you have in the signal path the less transparent it is to the source. His DACs are very different from conventional DACs and not just for the use of FPGA for his WTA filter, or his own Pulse Array DAC he invented, but also being able to forego the separate amp components because of the stellar measured performance of the DAC. He has confirmed many times that the only OP stage is the critical I/V conversion, which is basically the line out.

This is a quote from the Hugo thread but basically the same principal applies to the DAVE, of course not including improvements or discoveries he's made since:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/702787/chord-hugo/1830#post_10459450



rob watts said:


> I have been seeing some comments describing Hugo as excellent DAC with a good headphone amp. Both comments, in my view, are wrong and way off the mark - and seeing these comments are starting to bug me, so I would like to get it off my chest. So forgive me if I am overstepping the mark - commenting on honest posts about a product I have designed, but I thought it might be useful for Head-fi'rs to read my views.
> 
> First, I would like to talk about what as a designer I am trying to accomplish, as it has a bearing on one's opinion of Hugo's sound. Imagine going around CES and carefully listening to all the high end hi-fi on show, so you can carefully listen to all the major high end brands available today. Next, listen center stage row 10 to an orchestra. Now, in my opinion, high end Hi-fi sounds from very bad to absolutely awful compared to live acoustic music. The key difference in the sound is variability - live acoustic music has unbelievable variations in the perception of space, timbre, dynamics and rhythm. Additionally, each instrument sounds separate and as distinct entities. By comparison, high-end audio is severely compressed - depth of sound stage is limited to a few feet (listen to off stage effects in say Mahler first - in a concert the off stage effects sound a couple of hundred feet away but on a hi-fi it is an ambient sound a few feet away). Timbre is compressed - you don't get a really rich and smooth instrument playing at the same time as something bright. The biggest problem is the dominance effect - the loudest instrument is the one that drags your attention away - this constant see-saw of attention is the biggest reason for listening fatigue, a major problem with Hi-fi.
> 
> ...



* Bold emphasis added by me *


----------



## rkt31

@phonyx, can't say of nad51 but when I fed hugo directly to benchmark ahb2 power amp it was huge improvement over the previous integrated I was using. this way even at low volume hugo maintains much better bass and treble details as compared to integrated amp. if one is not used to those details at low volumes, it may be perceived as forwardness which is not actually there. in fact I also got better imaging even at lower volumes by feeding direct to power amp. the effect of digital volume control is imho more linear over the frequency spectrum as compared to pre of integrated amp. it is something to do also with output impedance of chord dacs which remains constant low at all volumes rather than analog attenuation in which the power amp sees variable impedance.


----------



## phonyx

Thanks for the link. I don't know what to think now really. Perhaps my current DAC is just appallingly inadequate as a direct source for my power amp vs a Hugo or Dave. Perhaps maybe I like euphonic sound as well... Which means money would be wasted buying a Dave...



rkt31 said:


> @phonyx, can't say of nad51 but when I fed hugo directly to benchmark ahb2 power amp it was huge improvement over the previous integrated I was using. this way even at low volume hugo maintains much better bass and treble details as compared to integrated amp. if one is not used to those details at low volumes, it may be perceived as forwardness which is not actually there. in fact I also got better imaging even at lower volumes by feeding direct to power amp. the effect of digital volume control is imho more linear over the frequency spectrum as compared to pre of integrated amp. it is something to do also with output impedance of chord dacs which remains constant low at all volumes rather than analog attenuation in which the power amp sees variable impedance.




Thanks for your perspective @rkt31. I don't know how my DAC (which wasn't expensive) compares to a Hugo. I think I might have to get one used and try it out.


----------



## x RELIC x

phonyx said:


> Thanks for the link. I don't know what to think now really. Perhaps my current DAC is just appallingly inadequate as a direct source for my power amp vs a Hugo or Dave. Perhaps maybe I like euphonic sound as well... Which means money would be wasted buying a Dave...




I really wish you had a chance to demo the DAVE. To my ears it's very analogue and natural sounding vs anything else I've heard, with ample power on tap. Honestly, I don't think I've heard a digital source sound so analogue and realistic. Euphonic to my ears, and I've extensively demo'd a Liquid Crimson amp and have a LAu on order from the final batch, but I truly feel it isn't warranted, at least my headphones don't require the extra juice from the LAu (I purchased it before DAVE.... long build time on the LAu). If you've read this thread there are many comments that are similar.

On Headphone Guru Frank noted very little difference when adding his LAu to the DAVE. Again, it would be best if you could audition one.

Oh, and in general, the Hugo will not give you a sense of the DAVE's tonality. Maybe a glimpse in to the capabilities of Rob's designs but the DAVE is really in a different class.


----------



## JaZZ

As described by x RELIC x, the DAVE plays on an even higher level, but I'm a fan of the Hugo nonetheless. It may have a slightly bright timbre, but it would be a pity if it was judged just by the degree of synergy with the rest of the system. The ideal case would be a system with adjustable tonal balance, hence independency from component synergy (with the sound transducers as the key factor).


----------



## phonyx

x relic x said:


> I really wish you had a chance to demo the DAVE. To my ears it's very analogue and natural sounding vs anything else I've heard, with ample power on tap. Honestly, I don't think I've heard a digital source sound so analogue and realistic. Euphonic to my ears, and I've extensively demo'd a Liquid Crimson amp and have a LAu on order from the final batch, but I truly feel it isn't warranted, at least my headphones don't require the extra juice from the LAu (I purchased it before DAVE.... long build time on the LAu). If you've read this thread there are many comments that are similar.
> 
> On Headphone Guru Frank noted very little difference when adding his LAu to the DAVE. Again, it would be best if you could audition one.
> 
> Oh, and in general, the Hugo will not give you a sense of the DAVE's tonality. Maybe a glimpse in to the capabilities of Rob's designs but the DAVE is really in a different class.




I very very nearly put my deposit down but can't really justify an LAu when I have the WA5 already, don't want it to get out of control...

But if a DAVE could replace my Burson Conductor, Cavalli LC and WA5 amps then it's a compelling option BUT I cannot demo one. Buying blind at that price level is insane, however. 




jazz said:


> As described by x RELIC x, the DAVE plays on an even higher level, but I'm a fan of the Hugo nonetheless. It may have a slightly bright timbre, but it would be a pity if it was judged just by the degree of synergy with the rest of the system. The ideal case would be a system with adjustable tonal balance, hence independency from component synergy (with the sound transducers as the key factor).




I'd love to hear one in place of my M51 in my HiFi. Even if as you say it's not Dave level might still give me an idea of the sound Robs FPGA programming produces vs the discreet circuitry of the NAD and Sabre chip in my XSABRE.

I hate living on this stupid island sometimes. I was in the US earlier this year I should have demo'd one then.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Some people (maybe those who like to pay a high audiophile tax) would scoff that my idea of super clarity in an amp was my SPL Auditor. It elevated every DAC I had every auditioned, including the Berkeley Alpha Reference 2, and put to shame many solid state amps at 4 times the price. 

Once I got the DAVE, though, I sold my Auditor. The DAVE's headphone section was that good. But, more to the point, I hooked up my Auditor to the DAVE both as a preamp, and DAC only, and for the first time my Auditor sounded like crap. It's not the DAVE's fault. I had reached a point for headphone listening where no artficial colors or additives were needed.


----------



## Ampus

phonyx said:


> I don't yet have a DAVE (still saving) but I have tested a number of DAC's with both analogue and digital volume controls thus enabling them to used as preamps, in my 2 channel system.
> 
> While some aspects of the sound seem to improve running DAC direct to the power amp (Pass Labs X250.5) like the sharpness of the attack on acoustic guitar notes, I find the soundstage collapses vertically and narrows horizontally, with less sense of instrument placement within the soundstage. There is also what seems to be an added brightness, albeit slight. To me they are the most noticeable differences.
> 
> Was the smaller sound stage and blurred instrument position information 'real' ie: more true to the recording and what the preamp adds 'synthetic'? Is my preamp warming up the sound? I don't know. But I listen to music for enjoyment and I'm yet to hear a DAC that to me sounds better direct than running through my preamp.




Phonyx and Watermad,

I tried using DAVE to drive my amps directly as well as using it as a DAC connecting to a Classe CP800 preamp (a very neutral solid state preamp) and Octave Jubilee preamp (one of the best hybrid tube preamps). My observation mirrors yours. A few other reviewers also voiced this observation on their DAVE review.

I would be interested at hearing Rob Watts' personal experience on this subject.


----------



## rgs9200m

I'm curious if the people with speaker issues are discussing things on the a'gon or aud. asylum forums, which have helped me in the past a lot when I was more speaker based. I'm not sure they should be concentrating on this site. 'just a trying to give a friendly helpful suggestion here because I wouldn't think it's a primarily DAC-centered issue.


----------



## phonyx

ampus said:


> Phonyx and Watermad,
> 
> I tried using DAVE to drive my amps directly as well as using it as a DAC connecting to a Classe CP800 preamp (a very neutral solid state preamp) and Octave Jubilee preamp (one of the best hybrid tube preamps). My observation mirrors yours. A few other reviewers also voiced this observation on their DAVE review.
> 
> I would be interested at hearing Rob Watts' personal experience on this subject.


 
  
 Thanks for the feedback. While there might be system specific lack of synergy happening for those with these issues, they seem super common. As in, I've never heard anyone say they preferred the sound of their system with DAC direct (sans preamp). By preferred I mean found it nicer, more enjoyable etc (not just purely more accurate, strictly speaking).
  


rgs9200m said:


> I'm curious if the people with speaker issues are discussing things on the a'gon or aud. asylum forums, which have helped me in the past a lot when I was more speaker based. I'm not sure they should be concentrating on this site.


 
  
 Speaker issues? As in the discussions of using a Dave as a preamp? 
  
 I, like most here, am considering a Dave as a headphone DAC (maybe amp too) but when it has a Preamp capability, the only way to really test that is with speakers, so I guess it's going to come up when discussing the product as a whole, and this thread's scope seems pretty all-encompassing. 
  
 I have previously discussed DAC direct configs elsewhere with an emphasis on 2 channel systems and the consensus was that it was inferior in essentially all subjective measures to running the same DAC into a good preamp. Just wanted to know if Dave would be different somehow!!


----------



## Jawed

At hi-fi shows Chord seems to run DAVE direct into a Chord power amp.


----------



## rgs9200m

I just meant that preamp merits are usually not the focus here; I'm guessing that not many people here use preamps, as almost all headphone amps are integrated amps. I did not mean to imply that this subject was in any way inappropriate here. Sorry.
 I only meant that there is a far larger population of people discussing preamp capabilities elsewhere and it may fruitful to look there. 'just trying to help.
 (I also saw the discussion in this thread about room associated bass issues with speakers, and that prompted this.) 
  
 By the way, I also had a Pass power amp for a few years (an X350 in 1999), and it really benefitted from a good preamp.
 As a former Levinson and Audio Research owner when I had a good speaker based system (with auditions of others), I felt that there is nothing like a great active preamp, and passives fell short in musicality.
 But I can't speak about the Dave, so I better just shut up here. Apologies.


----------



## phonyx

No need to apologise man. I just wanted to clear up that as with most here I'm considering this for a headphone rig but was intrigued about its preamp capabilities. Perhaps it was going a bit off track with that path. I know you were just trying to help and point in the direction of forums with more 2 channel experience - much appreciated. 

I run the pass labs amp and preamp. Their synergy is as you'd expect excellent. I'm all for transparency and I get that on paper the less in the signal chain the better. But I want to enjoy the music as number one priority and I've not found running DAC direct achieves that for me. 

I won't derail the thread anymore about preamps. Back to DAC discussion!!


----------



## TheAttorney

DAVE's pre-amp function is a significant and useful part of the design, so I do think it is perfectly valid to discuss it here.
 The volume and mute controls also work well via its remote control - one of the few functions that do 
  
 It's not essential to use loudspeakers to explore this. I've tried driving my BHSE with both DAC and preamp modes and, in that too brief a test, I didn't notice any difference in SQ.
 And some other headphone amps have a direct in option, so you can chose which voulume control is best.
  
 I stick to DAC mode simply becuase, having spent a small fortune on the most expensive volume pot in the universe for my BHSE, I'm damn well going to use it.
 But if ever I return to loudspeakers, I'd definitely be exploring DAVE's preamp function further.


----------



## onsionsi

As i'm a new comer to this field and the suggestion from @romaz in order to know the power of DAVE, i have to listen to the live records.
 So, can someone suggest a good live records and source of it.
 Also, is the HD Tracks records like Alexis Cole and Noah Wall considered to be as a live records or not?


----------



## lojay

evolvist said:


> Some people (maybe those who like to pay a high audiophile tax) would scoff that my idea of super clarity in an amp was my SPL Auditor. It elevated every DAC I had every auditioned, including the Berkeley Alpha Reference 2, and put to shame many solid state amps at 4 times the price.
> 
> Once I got the DAVE, though, I sold my Auditor. The DAVE's headphone section was that good. But, more to the point, I hooked up my Auditor to the DAVE both as a preamp, and DAC only, and for the first time my Auditor sounded like crap. It's not the DAVE's fault. I had reached a point for headphone listening where no artficial colors or additives were needed.


 
  
 Why are you selling your DAVE?


----------



## EVOLVIST

lojay said:


> Why are you selling your DAVE?




I purchased one for my home and another for the office. This was overkill. I should use the money for my DAVE at the office for other things, like maybe some Focal Utopia cans, or other pieces of audio gear.

Have no fear. My DAVE at home is safe with me.


----------



## tunes

Still trying to decide if the Dave pairing with the HIFIMAN HE 1000 is adequate to appreciate the full dynamic range of these headphones. This has to be my last purchase unless the Focal Utopias are really as good as some say and more speaker like sounding. Has anyone had extensive listening experience using the Dave with these 2 headphones without a dedicated headphone amp?


----------



## EVOLVIST

tunes said:


> Still trying to decide if the Dave pairing with the HIFIMAN HE 1000 is adequate to appreciate the full dynamic range of these headphones. This has to be my last purchase unless the Focal Utopias are really as good as some say and more speaker like sounding. Has anyone had extensive listening experience using the Dave with these 2 headphones without a dedicated headphone amp?




@x Relic × had the FUs, so I know he has. I don't know if Rob Watts got his FUs yet to compare with his Nighthawks, yet Rob says the Nighthawks sound more speaker-like than any other cans.


----------



## ubs28

evolvist said:


> @x Relic × had the FUs, so I know he has. I don't know if Rob Watts got his FUs yet to compare with his Nighthawks, yet Rob says the Nighthawks sound more speaker-like than any other cans.


 

 Really? Maybe I should try out the Nighthawks then.


----------



## maxh22

evolvist said:


> @x Relic × had the FUs, so I know he has. I don't know if Rob Watts got his FUs yet to compare with his Nighthawks, yet Rob says the Nighthawks sound more speaker-like than any other cans.




Rob said that before Focals newest headphones were released .


----------



## EVOLVIST

maxh22 said:


> Rob said that before Focals newest headphones were released .




Huh? If Rob has said anything about how the FUs sound then I missed it, because the last heard he was still taking his NightHawks on his world tours. Maybe @Rob Watts can elucidate. 

Coincidentally, I think I'm getting a chance to audition the NightHawks with DAVE this weekend.


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes I love the Nighthawks, and they do indeed have the tonal balance and lack of distortion that one gets from loudspeakers.
  
 I am in Tokyo at the international audio show, and popped into the Focal room. They were using a Dave driving Utopia, and I managed to listen for 5 minutes using Nora Jones. They sounded very good, and I can appreciate all the fuss about them. Like the Nighthawks, they are speaker like. Definitely I need to try these at home as shows can only give you a superficial impression.
  
 Rob


----------



## lojay

evolvist said:


> I purchased one for my home and another for the office. This was overkill. I should use the money for my DAVE at the office for other things, like maybe some Focal Utopia cans, or other pieces of audio gear.
> 
> Have no fear. My DAVE at home is safe with me.




I see I was just curious!!


----------



## Light - Man

lojay said:


> I see I was just curious!!


 
 A bit like this? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  

  
  
 Or more like this? - gif too big to embed: https://media.giphy.com/media/i0RbfAMQ0Bji/giphy.gif


----------



## JaZZ

tunes said:


> Still trying to decide if the Dave pairing with the HIFIMAN HE 1000 is adequate to appreciate the full dynamic range of these headphones. This has to be my last purchase unless the Focal Utopias are really as good as some say and more speaker like sounding. Has anyone had extensive listening experience using the Dave with these 2 headphones without a dedicated headphone amp?


 
  
 I still have to audition the Utopia (announced to be available soon in my town), but the DAVE/HE1000 pairing is close to my sonic ideal – and I definitely don't miss dynamics or some more power reserve. You certainly know that there's a (supposedly improved) HE1000 V2 now.


----------



## pkcpga

tunes said:


> Still trying to decide if the Dave pairing with the HIFIMAN HE 1000 is adequate to appreciate the full dynamic range of these headphones. This has to be my last purchase unless the Focal Utopias are really as good as some say and more speaker like sounding. Has anyone had extensive listening experience using the Dave with these 2 headphones without a dedicated headphone amp?




I use the Dave to directly power the Utopias and have found I really love the combo. The Dave has no problem powering the utopia, it requires very little power to be properly powered just needs very clean power since it's a very revealing headphone. My mojo can even successfully power the utopia but doesn't allow for its full potential, much more speaker like (full spectrum sound) and larger sound stage with the Dave over the mojo but it still sounds good for traveling. The utopia to me has a similar speaker sound as the he1000 but the utopia is more revealing and detailed. Small details like better depth in piano keys hitting, more of a plucking sound on strings for acoustic music. Hard to describe but I'd definitely audition both before deciding.


----------



## x RELIC x

rob watts said:


> Yes I love the Nighthawks, and they do indeed have the tonal balance and lack of distortion that one gets from loudspeakers.
> 
> I am in Tokyo at the international audio show, and popped into the Focal room. They were using a Dave driving Utopia, and I managed to listen for 5 minutes using Nora Jones. They sounded very good, and I can appreciate all the fuss about them. Like the Nighthawks, they are speaker like. Definitely I need to try these at home as shows can only give you a superficial impression.
> 
> Rob




Now I really have to try the Nighthawks. :wink_face:


----------



## watermad

Is anyone listening to vinyl through the Chord DAVE in pre-amp mode, e.g. connected a phono preamp to a ADC to pass-through the DAVEs digital input?
  
 I have a large collection of vinyl so still need to connect my analogue phono output to the DAVE, so recommendations a a reasonably priced but quality ADC would be appreciated.


----------



## x RELIC x

watermad said:


> Is anyone listening to vinyl through the Chord DAVE in pre-amp mode, e.g. connected a phono preamp to a ADC to pass-through the DAVEs digital input?
> 
> I have a large collection of vinyl so still need to connect my analogue phono output to the DAVE, so recommendations a a reasonably priced but quality ADC would be appreciated.




I'm curious why you'd want to. As far as I know the ADC would be the weakest link in the chain. The whole reason for the DAVE is to correct for the sampled information (digital) from an ADC and you already have a continuous signal (analogue) to send to your amp. If you are still going through the ritual of listening to vinyl then I would imagine you would want to keep the integrity of the signal rather than destroy it and then rebuild it.


----------



## watermad

You've missed the point of me running DAVE in pre-amp mode straight to my amplifier, thus I have to route my vinyl through DAVE.
  
 As for ritual, it's about the music, I'm a computer scientist by training so have a relatively good grasp of the technicalities of ADC/DAC, and DAVE is the closest to analogue sound I have heard. However I still have a large collection of music not available on CD or digital file, my tastes aren't mainstream, so want to enjoy ALL my music.


----------



## x RELIC x

watermad said:


> You've missed the point of me running DAVE in pre-amp mode straight to my amplifier, thus I have to route my vinyl through DAVE.
> 
> As for ritual, it's about the music, I'm a computer scientist by training so have a relatively good grasp of the technicalities of ADC/DAC, and DAVE is the closest to analogue sound I have heard. However I still have a large collection of music not available on CD or digital file, my tastes aren't mainstream, so want to enjoy ALL my music.




I got your point. I don't understand it is all. The pre-amp in the DAVE is really nothing more than digital volume control. Yes, the DAVE is closest to analogue sound I've heard as well and as an owner I've paid dearly to get there for the convenience of using digital files. I just don't grasp why you'd want to convert the already analogue out of your vinyl to digital just to rebuild the signal again. 

Please, don't think I'm criticizing anything you are doing, just having a knuckle dragging moment trying to comprehend why you want to go through the steps when you've already got an analogue signal. It can't be improved on by converting to digital and then back to analogue in the name of source transparency. Surely for tonality you can find a pre-amp and an amp to suite your sonic preference that would be less cost.


----------



## watermad

No criticism taken .
  
 Some context will make my question clearer, as on a previous post I asked about the sound quality of the DAVE in DAC mode with a pre-amplifier and the DAVE in pre-amplifier mode, the consensus being DAVE in pre-amplifier mode direct to my power amplifiers is the simplest, best path for sound quality of digital files. However with the DAVE in pre-amplifier mode I have no way of listening to my cherished analog vinyl . 
  
 Thus my question of connecting vinyl to the DAVE, I appreciate the ADC/DAC is reconstructing a signal I already have and can only degrade it, however keeping a not inexpensive, semi redundant pre-amplifier which has to be reconnected to listen to vinyl is a pain and money I could re-purpose.


----------



## x RELIC x

watermad said:


> No criticism taken .
> 
> Some context will make my question clearer, as on a previous post I asked about the sound quality of the DAVE in DAC mode with a pre-amplifier and the DAVE in pre-amplifier mode, the consensus being DAVE in pre-amplifier mode direct to my power amplifiers is the simplest, best path for sound quality of digital files. However with the DAVE in pre-amplifier mode I have no way of listening to my cherished analog vinyl .
> 
> Thus my question of connecting vinyl to the DAVE, I appreciate the ADC/DAC is reconstructing a signal I already have and can only degrade it, however keeping a not inexpensive, semi redundant pre-amplifier which has to be reconnected to listen to vinyl is a pain and money I could re-purpose.




In that case I'd stick around and wait for the Davina, Rob's upcoming ADC. Release date unknown but hopefully not too far off.


----------



## miketlse

x relic x said:


> In that case I'd stick around and wait for the Davina, Rob's upcoming ADC. Release date unknown but hopefully not too far off.


 
 I was thinking that as well.
  
 If you are still desperate in the short term to listen to your vinyl, then use a cheaper ADC like a Behringer UCA202, and store the file on your hard drive.
 It won't be as good as the Davina, but could be ok for the short term.


----------



## Beolab

.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

A few weeks back I suggested that with the new era of dac detail and transient speed ushered in by the likes of the new Dave Dac, I thought it likely that many speaker manufacturers will need to up their game in order to keep up. A decent pair of headphones and you can hear pretty quickly all of what DAVE brings to the party ('everything' seems incredibly musical and engaging emotionally to a level not previously experienced with digital performance) but the same is less likely to be experienced if listened to via loudspeaker systems. Dave is always musical of course but not to the same level with must speaker designs. Most speakers use dome tweeters these days, either silk or metal but unless that dome tweeter is made of something pretty special you will only experience something like 80% of the resolution and transient speed that Dave is capable of, in my view and it can be felt in the musicality, drama, emotion of the performance. I have now tested that theory for my own purposes and I am in no doubt that as we move on to greater Resolution/speed of transient detail, speaker manufacturers will need to move over to either specialist dome tweeters like berillium or electrostatic or ribbon designs. I think there needs to be a huge investment in R&D from many top speaker brands or they could flounder despite the unhealthy influence held on the industry by a few key distributors. They are behind the curve imo.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

It will be interesting to see how the speaker industry adapts over the next few years because I can see two unrelated but potential clouds on the horizon for some manufacturers.

1) at the lower end of the spectrum, 3D printing will erode some high volume bread and butter markets and
2) a move by DAC manufacturers to get the conversion done inside the speaker. 

There are some companies already moving into speaker manufacture and others doing deals with existing manufacturers to provide bespoke solutions in their speakers. In commercial terms both these developments should be taken seriously imo as they are disruptive to the industry and there will be casualties.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Have been listening to Beatles Revolver 2009 remaster this afternoon and I am so impressed by the sound through Dave that I thought I would go back and find out who did it and whether they had done anything unusual with it. I came across this article which I found fascinating and thought perhaps some of you would too.

http://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/remastering-beatles

Apart from the frightening responsibility and outstanding quality of their work, I was amazed to learn that a) It was all achieved with a 192/24 conversion and b) this was on Prism ADC's, (the very ones I have used in the past.)

All I can say is that if that level of quality can be rung out of pretty average specs and converters, goodness knows what could be done with Davina at 384 kHz. The crazy thing too is that Red Book (the protocol I have been listening to) maths don't even work with 192khz! 

Go figure....


----------



## Beolab

Quest

OT:

Can someone summarise the best SQ settings for HQplayer + Roon in combination with MicroRendu + Chord DAVE on Mac OS and PM me with a screen dump picture would be grateful.

Have a friend who is struggling to find the best settings for a descent SQ performance.


----------



## a1uc

Curious if the Dave improves with break in or stays pretty much the same out of the box ? If it does improve with break in how long of break in time are we talking ? I will be receiving my Dave sometime towards the end of next week .


----------



## Deftone

daveredref-iii said:


> Have been listening to Beatles Revolver 2009 remaster this afternoon and I am so impressed by the sound through Dave that I thought I would go back and find out who did it and whether they had done anything unusual with it. I came across this article which I found fascinating and thought perhaps some of you would too.
> 
> http://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/remastering-beatles
> 
> ...




They are stunning in sound quality i agree, remasters done properly.


----------



## rgs9200m

If you can spin discs, you might want to try the SHM versions of the Beatles from Japan. SHM CDs are pricey but very smooth and still vibrant and less fatiguing to my ears. (Other SHM CDs are great too. The new Beatles Live at the Hollywood Bowl is much more refined than the standard version. The SHM of the Supremes in Mono is also really nice.)
 Here's the long Steve Hoffman forum discussion of these:
 http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/beatles-shm-cd-releases-cd-japan.389947/
  
 [SHM stands for Super High Materials.]


----------



## EVOLVIST

I guess I'm going to have to give the Beatles another listen on the DAVE then, because I'm just not hearing it. Revolver in both mono and stereo, I've always thought was crap, fit for only listening in the car. If course I listen through headphones only, and I'll admit that I'm currently ironing out a few bottlenecks in my system, but really the only halfway decent quality fabs that I've heard is Beatles For Sale (stereo) and SPLHCB (stereo).


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

rgs9200m said:


> If you can spin discs, you might want to try the SHM versions of the Beatles from Japan. SHM CDs are pricey but very smooth and still vibrant and less fatiguing to my ears. (Other SHM CDs are great too. The new Beatles Live at the Hollywood Bowl is much more refined than the standard version. The SHM of the Supremes in Mono is also really nice.)
> Here's the long Steve Hoffman forum discussion of these:
> http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/beatles-shm-cd-releases-cd-japan.389947/
> 
> [SHM stands for Super High Materials.]




I am not convinced there is a material benefit rgs. These carry exactly the same data as the 2009 masters bit for bit. The only difference is the production material used on the disc. If you hear a difference then it says more about your disc player than the disc. The sleeves are usually nice but not worth the price hike imo.

I will try the MQA versions (somehow) when they arrive but probably go hires at some point.


----------



## Sunya

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/chord-electronics-dave-dac


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

evolvist said:


> I guess I'm going to have to give the Beatles another listen on the DAVE then, because I'm just not hearing it. Revolver in both mono and stereo, I've always thought was crap, fit for only listening in the car. If course I listen through headphones only, and I'll admit that I'm currently ironing out a few bottlenecks in my system, but really the only halfway decent quality fabs that I've heard is Beatles For Sale (stereo) and SPLHCB (stereo).




Do you have the 2009 remaster? The Eleanor Rigby vocal is extraordinary imo


----------



## kennyb123

evolvist said:


> I guess I'm going to have to give the Beatles another listen on the DAVE then, because I'm just not hearing it. Revolver in both mono and stereo,


 

 The 24 bit versions that were sold on a flash drive are an improvement over the CD versions.  Abbey Road in 24 bit sounds stunning actually.  
  
 I find it difficult to enjoy to the CD versions - though I'm sure that they'd be more enjoyable if I owned a DAVE.
  
 I'm fortunate to have early UK vinyl mono pressings of many of the Beatles albums. It sounds to me as though the original mono tapes lost some magic over the many years.


----------



## kennyb123

daveredref-iii said:


> I am not convinced there is a material benefit rgs. These carry exactly the same data as the 2009 masters bit for bit. The only difference is the production material used on the disc. If you hear a difference then it says more about your disc player than the disc. The sleeves are usually nice but not worth the price hike imo.


 
  
 I'm not sure that's necessarily true about all the SHM-CDs.  I have a few dozen and most of them are more compressed (and louder) than the non SHM-CDs.  They claim that the only thing different is the plastic used, but I think some may actually mastered differently.  I'm not sure if this applies to The Beatles on SHM-CD though, as I have no experience with them.


----------



## x RELIC x

sunya said:


> http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/chord-electronics-dave-dac




Obviously not the DAC for them, lol.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

One of things I notice more and more through Dave - Piega partnership is that it shows up the mis-management of plate reverbs on old recordings mid performance.

I was listening to the Platters the other day and the plate was moved close to the vocalist and back away in the space of 1.5 seconds at the most. Very off putting for the vocalist and clearly a mistake. It must have been quite comical to watch.


----------



## maxh22

x relic x said:


> Obviously not the DAC for them, lol.




The OP found Dave to sound harsh in his system. He definetely found it to be super revealing but thought it lacked some musicality. This seems to be the complete opposite of what most of the Dave owners who posted on these forums felt. He later said that Dave was uncolored and he prefered a more colored sounding dac.

Could it be that something in his chain is injecting RF noise into Dave, this causing a harder, brighter, yet still super resolving sound?


----------



## EVOLVIST

daveredref-iii said:


> Do you have the 2009 remaster? The Eleanor Rigby vocal is extraordinary imo




Yeah, I've have so many Beatles duplicates, including the 24 bit that came with the flash drive: vinyl rips, reel-to-reel rips, boots & outtakes, the 1987 discography, the 2009 discography, all from CD and vinyl. In other words, scores of Beatles! Haha. Mono. Stereo. Fake stereo. Folddown mixes. The list goes on. 

But, like I said, I have a bottleneck in my system, because I don't have a linear power supply for my microRendu, so everything that I've been listening to has more of a sharpish signature. There's that. I'm still very much experimenting with my DAVE.


----------



## Light - Man

evolvist said:


> Yeah, I've have so many Beatles duplicates, including the 24 bit that came with the flash drive: vinyl rips, reel-to-reel rips, boots & outtakes, the 1987 discography, the 2009 discography, all from CD and vinyl. In other words, scores of Beatles! Haha. Mono. Stereo. Fake stereo. Folddown mixes. The list goes on.
> 
> But, like I said, I have a bottleneck in my system, because I don't have a linear power supply for my microRendu, so everything that I've been listening to has more of a sharpish signature. There's that. I'm still very much experimenting with my DAVE.


 
 Have you tried the other inputs to the DAVE to see if it makes a difference? (optical and coaxial)
  
 Are you using headphones or connecting it to a power amp into speakers?
  
 I recently got a mains power filter to supply my integrated amp, etc and I believe it helps clean up any brightness and harshness in my speaker system.


----------



## EVOLVIST

light - man said:


> Have you tried the other inputs to the DAVE to see if it makes a difference? (optical and coaxial)
> 
> Are you using headphones or connecting it to a power amp into speakers?
> 
> I recently got a mains power filter to supply my integrated amp, etc and I believe it helps clean up any brightness and harshness in my speaker system.




Headphones only, and I haven't tried any other inputs. 

While I have a great AC regenerator, I don't have a proper power conditioner (if needed) and I'm still looking at power cords. So, there's a bit of work going on.

I don't think the DAVE is harsh; it seems more like when I first upgraded from my plain ol' television set to my first 1080p TV. I thought that buying the TV was enough. I had no idea that I needed an HDMI cables, nor that I had to pay extra from my cable company for HD broadcast.


----------



## watermad

I already have an ADC I used to archive my vinyl for listening on the move on my Walkman, however it does not output to the DAVE, it appears it needs the computer to register its USB output.
  
 I want to listen in realtime, would the Behringer allow me to connect directly to the DAVE and listen in realtime?


----------



## x RELIC x

maxh22 said:


> The OP found Dave to sound harsh in his system. He definetely found it to be super revealing but thought it lacked some musicality. This seems to be the complete opposite of what most of the Dave owners who posted on these forums felt. He later said that Dave was uncolored and he prefered a more colored sounding dac.
> 
> Could it be that something in his chain is injecting RF noise into Dave, this causing a harder, brighter, yet still super resolving sound?




Yeah, I'm not sure. Could be. Or it could just be that the guy likes what he's used before he got the DAVE. As you've read, he obviously recognizes this as a possibility. Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## miketlse

watermad said:


> I already have an ADC I used to archive my vinyl for listening on the move on my Walkman, however it does not output to the DAVE, it appears it needs the computer to register its USB output.
> 
> I want to listen in realtime, would the Behringer allow me to connect directly to the DAVE and listen in realtime?


 
  
 Not sure, but it does also have an optical output.
  
http://www.larrytalkstech.com/behringer-uca202-uca222-usb-audio-interface-linux/


----------



## ExtremeGamerBR

kennyb123 said:


> I'm not sure that's necessarily true about all the SHM-CDs.  I have a few dozen and most of them are more compressed (and louder) than the non SHM-CDs.  They claim that the only thing different is the plastic used, but I think some may actually mastered differently.  I'm not sure if this applies to The Beatles on SHM-CD though, as I have no experience with them.


 
  
 Remasters can be different. But if you get the SAME master for CD and SHM-CD, they have to sound the same.
  
 SHM-CD is only snake oil.


----------



## kennyb123

extremegamerbr said:


> Remasters can be different. But if you get the SAME master for CD and SHM-CD, they have to sound the same.


 
 You missed my point.  Some SHM-CDs are packaged to appear as if they are exact the same master as the regular CD with the only difference being that different plastic is used - but they are actually different masters.  As such it can be challenging to do an apples-to-apples comparison to determine whether the differences one hears can be attributed to the SHM process.


----------



## ExtremeGamerBR

kennyb123 said:


> You missed my point.  Some SHM-CDs are packaged to appear as if they are exact the same master as the regular CD with the only difference being that different plastic is used - but they are actually different masters.  As such it can be challenging to do an apples-to-apples comparison to determine whether the differences one hears can be attributed to the SHM process.


 

 Yes, you are right. In this case only using some software to check the spectogram, DR etc.


----------



## Deftone

kennyb123 said:


> The 24 bit versions that were sold on a flash drive are an improvement over the CD versions.  Abbey Road in 24 bit sounds stunning actually.
> 
> I find it difficult to enjoy to the CD versions - though I'm sure that they'd be more enjoyable if I owned a DAVE.
> 
> I'm fortunate to have early UK vinyl mono pressings of many of the Beatles albums. It sounds to me as though the original mono tapes lost some magic over the many years.


 

But the flash drive versions are still only 24-44.1 im sure that the 16-44.1 arent unlistenable :/


----------



## Deftone

Back on topic, has anyone seen this? Good read

https://audiobacon.net/2016/04/15/chord-dave-review


----------



## maxh22

deftone said:


> Back on topic, has anyone seen this? Good read
> 
> https://audiobacon.net/2016/04/15/chord-dave-review


 
 Yes, this is one of the most in depth review's of Dave I have read. I read the whole thing atleast five times.


----------



## kennyb123

deftone said:


> But the flash drive versions are still only 24-44.1 im sure that the 16-44.1 arent unlistenable :/


 

 Have you compared them?
  
 Interestingly enough, in the past when friends have asked to hear high res, I often use "Hey Jude" as an example.  Even unskilled listeners are able to point out the improvements from the 24 bit version.  Ironic as arguably it's not truly "high res", but that extra word length sure does help.
  
 I've also done this comparison for friends and family members who haven't even heard of high res.  Interesting to see their reactions.


----------



## paul79

I have had the DAVE here for awhile, and I feel it is time to share my thoughts.... Yes, that means it was put up against the Totaldac System Twelve, 4 box masterpiece from Vincent. This is on my 2ch speaker system.
  
 The DAVE clearly prefers to be used with the USB input. No question, this is the best and only way to use it IMO.... Very killer USB input that does not care near as much about the source as some (all?) other DAC's do. They still matter, but not to near the degree I have experienced with other DAC's. DAVE is also a PCM DAC through and through. DSD is good too, but PCM slays on this machine.
  
 Sonically, it offers up a very driven lean mean ballsy presentation. Totally "plugged in". Nice energy and dynamics, very dimensional albeit a bit shallower soundstage than I was expecting. Yes, I know this goes against all said about its depth capabilities, but that was my finding in my system. However though, the soundstage is deeper than any other DAC I have tried with exception to the Totaldac Twelve and Totaldac Monobloc. Artists are absolutely "in the room" with you. It is very very fast, and delineates very well, keeping artists nice and separated. It is rich, but it could use a bit more richness IMO. Overall, very neutral sounding and very clean and clear. It does a very nice job of eliminating artifacts and or blur, keeping images nicely focused and grounded with no silly problems like "head swell". Very low noise floor allowing images to appear in correct space. It favors tonal density to ambient and air. Sound is on the wetter side, meaning it does not sound overly dry. Nice big images, full of life, and very dynamic. Explosive even, so get ready. Bass is big, slamming, and focused, so no shortage of current delivery here. Highs are brilliant and natural with no aggressive edge. Midrange is quite glorious, nice bloom, full of energy, plenty of detail, smooth, and free of artifacts.
  
 It also does something I found kind of interesting.... Some of my recordings that were not so well previously, sounded better through the DAVE, where others sounded worse, and even overly sibilant at times. These are different file resolutions for the most part, so maybe the filtering for said resolution vs. another is better with one than another? I don't know, but I found this interesting.
  
 Good recordings sound wonderful and completely unharmed doing nothing but justice, of course, and worse recordings were a bit of a mixed bag, so take that for what its worth  
  
 Digital sources used were the Totaldac Server over USB, a MacBook Pro with Amarra or Audirvana Plus optimized and ran on battery. Best overall was the Totaldac offering up a more focused, dynamic, and deeper presentation with the best clarity and lowest noise floor.
  
 Overall, a true beast that beats anything I have tried near its price and beyond. Value off the charts! I love the looks of the DAC. Don't hide the pretty screws, lay them all out there to see, and this makes for a very nice contrasting sexy look. Who doesn't like pretty screws?     I don't know why manufacturers are on this kick to hide them nowadays....
  
 Comparison;
 The Totaldac Twelve is the more romantic, more intimate and more transparent sounding performer. Although the dynamics are world class, not as explosive as the DAVE. Personal preference is a consideration here. With the Twelve, artists are in the room, full bodied, full scale, and with a deeper soundstage so you are better able to see the far reaches and go as deep as you want to go. Not laid back, just more dimension front to back. Dynamic contrasting is more obvious with the Twelve, meaning soft sounds to loud sounds are more scaled. High frequencies are about equal for both, symbols are correct sounding, but the Totaldac does a nice job of doing both tonal density and ambient retrieval at the same time. Artists have allot of energy and are very present without sacrificing air. Backup singers are spooky sounding and clear as a bell for both. The Twelve is wetter, richer, more intimate, and more "unplugged" sounding. Twelve has a lower perceived noise floor with more black between the artists with more air around and even behind the artists making them come to life with a round full body. More holographic I suppose is the right term. Not overly etched, just full bodied. Totaldac could care less about DSD or PCM. It has no preference here, and both are equally engaging recording dependent of course. This is the only DAC I have tried that does not favor one over the other. The magic is the midrange with Twelve no doubt about it. It has that magic and is never dry sounding. Dryness in the midrange is one of my biggest issues with most digital in comparison to analog, and I believe this to be the main cause of emotional detachment. Twelve is also free of artifacts and presents itself with supreme clarity. Bass does not have the slam of the DAVE. It is a more tuneful bass with the Twelve. Sort of like comparing horn bass to direct radiator bass. It fills the room, is very focused and deep, but it does not hit super hard.
  
 Where the DAVE is absolutely impressive and commands attention, the Twelve is more intimate and extremely emotional sounding to me, and it does this without sacrificing resolution/transparency. With the Twelve, Classical music is represented near flawlessly and huge with massive depth and very obvious layering front to back. DAVE brings everything closer but does so without being aggressive, and still has a nice depth portrayal that most digital does not get even close to. Twelve does this better than anything I have heard, and actually rivals my vinyl rig in this regard.
  
 The DAVE is just slightly faster sounding better keeping up with drum rolls FE... DAVE also has the edge with forward delineation, meaning a duo or trio of singers that are close together and forward for instance, is better than any digital I have heard at keeping them separate and never smearing together. This is VERY cool and important. I will also mention again, the USB input of the DAVE. It is stupid good, and eliminates the needs for reclockers and all those tweaky devices that try to make it better, and quite frankly should not have to exist. Most of these devices just present trade-offs instead of globally improving anything IME, but I can see the need for some DAC's to have these for some help. Big kudos to Chord for getting this part absolutely right, and further adding to its value points.
  
 So there you have it. My take on a couple monsters. The DAVE is quite an achievement in bringing world class digital to a price point that more buyers can reach for.


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## analogmusic

Thanks for a nice review.
  
 What is the price of the total DAC rig ?


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## x RELIC x

analogmusic said:


> Thanks for a nice review.
> 
> What is the price of the total DAC rig ?




It varies quite a bit depending on the options chosen. Around 4000 Euros for the D1-core to around 30 000 Euros for the maxed out D1-Twelve with server option.


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## bmichels

The D1-Six is now their best seller at 13500€TTC (+1000 € for the streamer option)
  
 ...   I believe I may get a D1-Tube MK2 to warm-up a little my BHSE/SR009


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## Jawed

paul79 said:


> So there you have it. My take on a couple monsters. The DAVE is quite an achievement in bringing world class digital to a price point that more buyers can reach for.



Did you try DAVE as a pre-amp direct into your power amp(s)?


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## paul79

analogmusic said:


> Thanks for a nice review.
> 
> What is the price of the total DAC rig ?


 
 The one used for comparison is about $30K USD all in. That includes 4 chassis:
  
 Monobloc Twelve DAC's, one per channel
 Dual output Reclocker to run the DAC's
 D1 Server/Reclocker with the optional outboard supply to feed and isolate the server module
 Qnap HS-251 NAS loaded with 2 1TB SSD's and optimized for audio
 Belkin WiFi Router tying together all the network equipment
 Totaldac USB Cable/Filter
 Totaldac RJ45 Cable/Filter between Router and Server, Blue Jeans CAT6A between Router and NAS
 All network equipment uses Paul Hynes linear power supplies. SR5-12's
 Music Player Software is MPD and I have several firmware versions to tailor the sound
  
 Allot of boxes, but they come together very nicely. Sound is akin to a very nice turntable using a Koetsu Cartridge. It really sounds like a turntable.
  
 System:
 NOS Valves VRD tube amps, with Signature upgrades. Basically better connections, upgraded resistors, upgraded coupling caps, and the use of custom MagneQuest Output Iron. The best amps I have ever heard at any price, no joke. The little distortion present is all moved to second harmonic with these special output transformers, and very little feedback is used
 NOS Valves NBS Preamp treated the same way. Upgraded everything. Extreme transparency and focus. Class A single ended no feedback design
 Speakers are Joseph Audio Pearl 2's (soon to be upgraded to Pearl 3 status)
 Analog Cabling is all Antipodes Reference. Don't sound like copper, don't sound like silver. Sound like music!
 AES/EBU Cables are my own custom design using Furutech best XLR connectors
 Power Cables are my own custom design for the amps and preamp using IeGo Copper Gold connectors
 Power Cables for the digital equipment are all WyWires Silver Juice II with IeGo Copper Gold connectors
 Vinyl Rig uses the onboard Phono Preamp in the NBS
 Turntable is an original VPI Scout with upgraded bearing, upgraded motor, 10" VPI Tonearm, various cartridges, and placed on a Symposium Platform
 Rack is custom Curly Maple shelving with Walnut Legs
  
 Power is a dedicated panel with dedicated ground rod and 3 circuits feed the listening room. Amps are dedicated, preamp with Totaldac and turntable are dedicated, and network equipment is dedicated.
 With this configuration, I use absolutely NO power conditioning, as it is much better without, and I have tried about everything there is. Some of my previous DAC's benefited from conditioned power. Totaldac doesn't need it at  all, and is worse with it. Using conditioned power with Totaldac changes the presentation and shrinks the performance. Even using high end Conditioners, like Audience or Bybee. Amps and preamp don't like conditioned power either. DAVE may benefit from it, but I doubt it. I think it has plenty of power supply as is.
  
 I use power distributors sporting Furutech GTX-D-(G) receptacles with Neutrik 32A PowerCon inlets. Main outlets use the same Furutech.
  
 Room is dedicated 18 X 23 with 10' ceiling. Treated with mix of diffusion and absorption, carpeted. Speakers are on the short wall, system placed on the long wall.
  
 Music is widespread, mostly PCM CD Rips and some high rez and DSD for my listening, all genres. Instead of getting into what this track or that track sounds like, I listen to allot of music to form my findings as whole.


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## paul79

jawed said:


> Did you try DAVE as a pre-amp direct into your power amp(s)?


 

 Yes, I did try this, but quickly determined that with the Preamp I got more body, more dimension, more scale. Just more more more, without any sacrifice in transparency or resolution that I can hear. Overall a more engaging presentation with the Preamp in the chain. Although, the DAVE does pretty well used as a preamp giving a very precise sound.
  
 There is no displacement for a good tube preamp with any DAC I have tried.


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## lojay

paul79 said:


> The one used for comparison is about $30K USD all in.




Thanks for your wonderful review. Do you think that the emotion, richness and wetness of the Totaldac Twelve could be replicated by the DAVE with down stream equipment such as a more romantic sounding tube amp? 

In terms of tonal balance and density what are your thoughts in the comparison?

Finally would you say the DAVE sounds more similar to the Totaldac Twelve or different? Is it one of those cases that since both DACs are operating at such a high level differences are subtler and require extensive listening to appreciate, or are they immediately apparent?

Thanks again for your time. It makes me appreciate my DAC even more!


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## paul79

Well overall system balance can always be tailored. One must be careful though as components that romanticize or color the sound often result in a trade-off. For instance, this often comes with a sacrifice in resolution and transparency. It can also result in sameness, meaning all music will have a similar character to the sound rather than being true.

The Twelve is very coherent as is the DAVE, and tonal density for both are very good providing great realism and vividness keeping true to the sound of instruments/artists. The Twelve has superior image focus and more overall ease to the sound.

Differences between these are easily determinable and apparent. Overall the Twelve is better for me and my system, but both are very capable and world class performers one can build fantastic systems around. 

I will also say that in my opinion, once you have your room and system correct, the source material is what you hear  Everything should do the best job it can to get out of the way. That should help determine what my goals in system building consist of.

People often think tube systems color and romanticize. While this is true for some, I find good modern tube gear to be much more resolute than solid state giving much greater realism and life. Just closer to the music. Tubes are simple, and simplicity always wins in the analog domain.


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## lojay

paul79 said:


> Well overall system balance can always be tailored. One must be careful though as components that romanticize or color the sound often result in a trade-off. For instance, this often comes with a sacrifice in resolution and transparency. It can also result in sameness, meaning all music will have a similar character to the sound rather than being true.
> 
> The Twelve is very coherent as is the DAVE, and tonal density for both are very good providing great realism and vividness keeping true to the sound of instruments/artists. The Twelve has superior image focus and more overall ease to the sound.




Thank you, this is very insightful and allows me to better understand the detailed review you posted earlier on. It seems we share the same goals in audio but I'm still taking my baby steps with headphones.

I completely agree with you on the danger of sacrificing transparency and resolution for romanticism. I do feel that some tube amps bring one closer to the music and the source, for me that would be the DIYT2. While theoretically the cleanest and most direct playback would be through the headphone output of the DAVE, I still prefer the DIYT2 feeding the SR009 which is more transparent to me. I surmise it will only be better with such an advanced and high end speaker system like yours.

Grossly generalised would I be right to say that compared to the Totaldac, the DAVE is a hair quicker in its transient response and timing, but slightly drier, not as good with imaging and depth and has less "ease" in its presentation?

I am quite interested in the last aspect. I do feel that as competent as the DAVE is, it is just a bit nervous in its presentation of transients and has less of a black background that I would desire. It's hard to describe but I think I know what you mean by "ease". I do not know if improving my source would alleviate this.


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## lovethatsound

paul79 said:


> Yes, I did try this, but quickly determined that with the Preamp I got more body, more dimension, more scale. Just more more more, without any sacrifice in transparency or resolution. Overall a more engaging and easier to listen to presentation with the Preamp in the chain. Although, the DAVE does pretty well used as a preamp giving a very precise sound.
> 
> There is no displacement for a good tube preamp with any DAC I have tried.


Hi paul79
I remember when i frist got my Dave,and for a while i thought using my headphone amp sounded just like what you've describe,but again after while,i realised that the rolls had reversed.Now there's no way I'd use my headphone amp.It may be worth your time just using the dave as your pre-amp for a few weeks,and then compare them again.


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## paul79

lojay,
_"""Grossly generalised would I be right to say that compared to the Totaldac, the DAVE is a hair quicker in its transient response and timing, but slightly drier, not as good with imaging and depth and has less "ease" in its presentation?"""_
  
 Your last question is a good one, and one I didn't really hit on quite enough.
  
 I don't know that DAVE is really faster sounding, as both are lightning quick. The DAVE with its presentation more to the forefront and with its more energetic intensity to the presentation just highlights it more on some tracks I think. The "plugged in" vs "unplugged" aspect here again.
  
 But yes, you have it pretty much nailed overall.


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## paul79

lovethatsound said:


> Hi paul79
> I remember when i frist got my Dave,and for a while i thought using my headphone amp sounded just like what you've describe,but again after while,i realised that the rolls had reversed.Now there's no way I'd use my headphone amp.It may be worth your time just using the dave as your pre-amp for a few weeks,and then compare them again.


 

 An amplifier or even an integrated amplifer is pretty different than a preamp though. Circumstances are also different in a 2ch system. The differences with and without the preamp are very apparent. Key here though, is a very good preamp. My system always sounds much better with the preamp I use, and the DAVE is no different here. The Twelve actually sounds a bit better direct with my tube amps than the DAVE does, but even it still shrinks the soundscape and lacks a bit of body in comparison. I did give the DAVE a fair shake directly to the amps though, because who wouldn't like to eliminate the preamp?
  
 I can see how the DAVE would be fantastic directly driving headphones though, as it has the drive capability to do so. The Twelve has no output stage at all and output is derived directly off the DAC's. That means that it really needs a preamp in the loop to get the best from it, and it better be a damn good one to do it justice. The Twelve will run most tube amps good though, but if the input impedance is low, like most solid state amps have, it won't do. Nor will it drive headphones directly. That is what the DAVE, Totaldac D1 Six, or the D1 Twelve SE are for


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## JaZZ

paul79 said:


> lovethatsound said:
> 
> 
> > Hi paul79
> ...


 
  
 Hi Paul
  
 Some food for thoughts: From a technical, electroacoustic perspective a preamp in the signal path is hard to justify. Both preamp and power amp offer about the same load for the DAVE (25-100 kΩ), so it's safe to say that the output signal is the same and in no way cleaner due to the allegedly disburdening preamp. Which indicates that the perceived «improvement» is in fact euphonic coloration. Now you like what you like and have your own sonic ideal, to which the preamp path obviously lets you get closer. But sometimes it helps to know what's actually happening to find a solution that's even better than the added forgivingness in your case – which I also and especially attribute to tube electronics. In my experience a signal path as direct as it gets reveils the tonal flaws in a system much more than one with a few euphonizing electronics components with friendly harmonic-distortion patterns.


----------



## paul79

jazz said:


> Hi Paul
> 
> Some food for thoughts: From a technical, electroacoustic perspective a preamp in the signal path is hard to justify. Both preamp and power amp offer about the same load for the DAVE (25-100 kΩ), so it's safe to say that the output signal is the same and in no way cleaner due to the allegedly disburdening preamp. Which indicates that the perceived «improvement» is in fact euphonic coloration. Now you like what you like and have your own sonic ideal, to which the preamp path obviously lets you get closer. But sometimes it helps to know what's actually happening to find a solution that's even better than the added forgivingness in your case – which I also and especially attribute to tube electronics. In my experience a signal path as direct as it gets reveils the tonal flaws in a system much more than one with a few euphonizing electronics components with friendly harmonic-distortion patterns.


 

 Technically you may be correct, but don't forget that volume controlled in the analog domain just might have advantages over volume controlled the digital domain. It is also safe to say that a preamp provides a layer of isolation from the connected components in a sense. I believe there is more than just euphonics at play.
  
 I would also argue in that my tube equipment is forgiving. I find it much more resolute and revealing than any solid state I have had. Maybe some food for you as well?


----------



## JaZZ

paul79 said:


> Technically you may be correct, but don't forget that volume controlled in the analog domain just might have advantages over volume controlled the digital domain. It is also safe to say that a preamp provides a layer of isolation from the connected components in a sense. I believe there is more than just euphonics at play.
> 
> I would also argue in that my tube equipment is forgiving. I find it much more resolute and revealing than any solid state I have had.


 
  
 I'm absolutely certain that the DAVE's digital volume control is lossless down to extremely low volume levels – as confirmed by Rob Watts. You can't ask for more.
  
 What would be the benefit from «isolation» between DAVE and your power amp? You can't mean galvanic isolation, since that wouldn't be provided by the preamp insertion either. As I see it, the most desirable goal would be a seamless union between the two components, ideally without a cable in between. But again – according to my experience such a theoretically ideal configuration won't automatically lead to a pleasing sound, since it makes the system extremely reveiling to tonal flaws – which you can never avoid, since sound transducers are notoriously flawed in many aspects, particularly amplitude response.
  
 Yes, solid-state electronics absolutely have a similar coloration potential, but tube electronics offer an even more euphonic result – roughly spoken.


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## Jawed

I think it's quite common that power amps are designed to work with "matching" pre-amps. In a sense the power amp is "faulty" if not paired with the synergising pre-amp.

It seems there aren't many people running DAVE direct into their power amps, apparently due to lack of synergy.

Romaz appears to be the only person running speakers directly from DAVE:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/4815#post_12874117



> My one compact sized DAVE with no outboard preamp or amplifiers can now very transparently and satisfyingly drives headphones, speakers and a subwoofer. Thank you, Rob and John for my custom tailored DAVE. How did you know?


----------



## ubs28

paul79 said:


> Technically you may be correct, but don't forget that volume controlled in the analog domain just might have advantages over volume controlled the digital domain. It is also safe to say that a preamp provides a layer of isolation from the connected components in a sense. I believe there is more than just euphonics at play.
> 
> *I would also argue in that my tube equipment is forgiving. I find it much more resolute and revealing than any solid state I have had. Maybe some food for you as well?  *


 
  
 If you got alot of money, then try Esoteric. I think you'd be quite stunned how revealing and transparent that solid state setup is. Haven't heard a setup with tubes that sounded good next to it yet.


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## paul79

JaZZ,
 I am not disagreeing with you. Every single electronic device is a compromise and a recreation in relation to reality. We are recreating an event to suit our tastes in our _environment_, of which is also a hindrance. Music is colored the second it hits the microphone and can never be perfectly recreated by electronics. Everything has an input and an output, and everything has to work together, creating a series of compromises and trade-offs that we accept no matter the system, in relation to reality. What can we do?
  
 Maybe you could offer some guidance on what I can do to eliminate the preamp in my system and share your thoughts on what is wrong with my system seeing that I think it needs the preamp to recreate my ideal event picture? I don't hear anything tonally wrong, nor do I hear any artifacts with the DAC direct or with the preamp in the chain that say something is really wrong. I just hear a different and better to me, presentation with the preamp than without that sounds much more real _to me_.
  
 So to better qualify, these are my thoughts of 2 different DAC's in my system in my environment and my tastes. YMMV... There is no way to draw your own conclusions based on my descriptions with my system and my tastes. Only you can determine what works for you and your system with your tastes, so I encourage you to take part in trials that most manufacturers offer so you can figure out what works for you.


----------



## kennyb123

jazz said:


> Some food for thoughts: From a technical, electroacoustic perspective a preamp in the signal path is hard to justify. Both preamp and power amp offer about the same load for the DAVE (25-100 kΩ), so it's safe to say that the output signal is the same and in no way cleaner due to the allegedly disburdening preamp. Which indicates that the perceived «improvement» is in fact euphonic coloration. Now you like what you like and have your own sonic ideal, to which the preamp path obviously lets you get closer. But sometimes it helps to know what's actually happening to find a solution that's even better than the added forgivingness in your case – which I also and especially attribute to tube electronics. In my experience a signal path as direct as it gets reveils the tonal flaws in a system much more than one with a few euphonizing electronics components with friendly harmonic-distortion patterns.


 
  
 My prediction:  at some future time when Chord releases the DAVE replacement, it will be recognized that Rob was able squeeze even more out of the output of his new creation such that some will see that, as amazing the DAVE was, there was still more that a genius like Rob could squeeze out of it.  
  
 I am just totally skeptical that absolute perfection can ever be achieved such that a particular product can in no way be improved upon.  Especially when the product has to mate with other products that could be far from this level of perfection.  With all the preamps out on the market, would we accept that there's one out there that could mate perfectly with every single amp on the market?


----------



## ecwl

I recall Rob Watts saying that some people just preferred a little more 2nd or 3rd order harmonic distortions. When I go to Stereophile measurements of preamplifiers and amplifiers, I've seen great and terrible reviews of components with significant 2nd/3rd order harmonic distortions and great and terrible reviews of components of ones with virtually no 2nd/3rd order harmonic distortions. It seems like it's more reviewer dependent than anything else. Obviously, it may be that there are other aspects of the preamp/amplifiers that make them appealing or not.
  
 That's why deep down, I wonder if it would have been nice if DAVE has a digital option to add a programmable amount of 2nd and/or 3rd order harmonic distortion computationally. The user can then customize the distortion to their liking. This is of course assuming these distortions are the cause of different people's preferences. And if they are not, the customization option would also prove that people's preferences for various preamplifiers or amplifiers are not due to the 2nd/3rd order harmonic distortions.


----------



## JaZZ

ecwl said:


> I recall Rob Watts saying that some people just preferred a little more 2nd or 3rd order harmonic distortions. When I go to Stereophile measurements of preamplifiers and amplifiers, I've seen great and terrible reviews of components with significant 2nd/3rd order harmonic distortions and great and terrible reviews of components of ones with virtually no 2nd/3rd order harmonic distortions. It seems like it's more reviewer dependent than anything else. Obviously, it may be that there are other aspects of the preamp/amplifiers that make them appealing or not.
> 
> That's why deep down, I wonder if it would have been nice if DAVE has a digital option to add a programmable amount of 2nd and/or 3rd order harmonic distortion computationally. The user can then customize the distortion to their liking. This is of course assuming these distortions are the cause of different people's preferences. And if they are not, the customization option would also prove that people's preferences for various preamplifiers or amplifiers are not due to the 2nd/3rd order harmonic distortions.


 
  
 Most likely it would take more than 2nd- and 3rd-order harmonics, but maybe up to 23th-order harmonics and the like for exactly mimicking the reference preamp's characteristic. Plus a perfect reproduction of intermodulation distortion.


----------



## JaZZ

paul79 said:


> JaZZ,
> I am not disagreeing with you. Every single electronic device is a compromise and a recreation in relation to reality. We are recreating an event to suit our tastes in our _environment_, of which is also a hindrance. Music is colored the second it hits the microphone and can never be perfectly recreated by electronics. Everything has an input and an output, and everything has to work together, creating a series of compromises and trade-offs that we accept no matter the system, in relation to reality. What can we do?
> 
> Maybe you could offer some guidance on what I can do to eliminate the preamp in my system and share your thoughts on what is wrong with my system seeing that I think it needs the preamp to recreate my ideal event picture? I don't hear anything tonally wrong, nor do I hear any artifacts with the DAC direct or with the preamp in the chain that say something is really wrong. I just hear a different and better to me, presentation with the preamp than without that sounds much more real _to me_.
> ...


 
  
 Paul, don't get me wrong: I'm all for a sound taylored to my own sonic preferences as well and not a slave of a theoretical ideal. You have every right to prefer what you prefer, and I'm in no way disputing that your system sounds fabulous (well, I'm sure), also and especially with the preamp. Maybe I would even agree with you that it sounds better with it than without it. Therefore the «food for thoughts»: Technically it can't sound better in terms of accuracy and high fidelity, so what's left is better synergy, most likely in the sense of forgivingness and euphonic coloration. Forgivingness to tonal flaws in your speakers in your room in particular. Since forgivingness means arbitrarily reduced transparency, I'm looking for a way to overcome the tonal flaws to get both a sound free from irritating effects and maximum transparency. The solution would be to minimize the tonal flaws at the source of them: room acoustics and speaker amplitude response, taylored to your ears, not necessarily strictly to optimal measuring curves: It's hard or almost impossible to grasp the tonal characteristic of a speaker in a listening room from a single measuring curve – which encompasses direct and reflected sound waves, but doesn't differentiate them. The most obvious methods are room treatment and (maybe even more important in your case) careful equalizing. The latter has proven to be indispensable for optimizing my headphones for the direct drive by Hugo and DAVE.


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## paul79

I'm hooked on Euphonics!!
  
 So that said, my preamp is in essence an analog EQ. No argument from me that this could be more transparently done in the digital domain, but I have to believe that altering or equalizing in the digital domain presents its own issues. I have been in audio long enough to know, there is no free lunch with anything. It very well may be a lesser evil and more superior, but something is happening to the original signal via bit rerouting, throwing something away, to alter the outcome for a possible positive result, but at the same time perhaps, another damaging trade-off.


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## JaZZ

Rob Watts was addressing equalizing in a post. He thinks that small signal accuracy in a quality such as offered by the DAVE could be affected by equalizing or certain equalizers, at least more or less. I still have to think it over. But somehow I don't get how that could be with decent algorithms, since it's done before conversion to analogue, so the DAVE still makes the best out of the available signal, small signal accuracy included. How can the unequalized original signal be considered more accurate in absolute terms than the equalized one when it comes to small signals – with respect to the over-all tonal balance? However, 99% of the music we listen to is equalized anyway, probably even at more than one stage, so the virus is already present. Think microphone equalization, sound effects, mastering, remastering... everything in the digital domain (hopefully!).
  
 I don't hear any adverse effects from my equalizing practice. Small signals are still there in spades, even more transparent thanks to the missing masking effects from dominating frequency bands, possibly also due to the corrected phase response. In turn I do hear the bad colorations from my headphones when fed with unequalized signals, and they are all too blatant.
  
 Your preamp is less an equalizer (metrologically it isn't in the least) than an effect device, producing small, but effective doses of harmonic distortion.


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## rkt31

correct, even if there is no equalization in post processing or recording, there is still some as no equipment in recording chain has perfectly flat frequency response. even best of mics have some peak or dip in frequency response, then effects of cable impedance and other equipments including playback. so ultimately there is some equalization which you can't avoid. so key is to not to add further eq unknowingly or without any control. in that respect Dave may be the closest you get. imho because of inherent frequency curves of some recording equipments , some of the so called best and minimalistic audiophile recordings may sound very thin and lacking body on a true high fidelity equipment like Dave which is not the fault of dave. like some of the Allison krauss recordings sound very thin on hugo or even on any dac. in short eq is everywhere and you can't avoid it but the playback source (dac) imho should be as transparent as it can be. you may add your own eq as per your preference in the form of pre amp or other equipments. however I myself refrain from adding any sort of eq even if the recording is faulty to start with. it's my personal preference though. when I fed hugo directly to benchmark ahb2 power amp in low gain mode, it sounded a bit forward. it was not the fault of hugo or power amp because hugo was operating in its optimum output range of 1.5 v to 2.5 v due to low gain mode of power amp and also this benchmark amp is one of the best power amp in terms of noise and distortion. that apparent forwardness in sound was due to the fact I was not habitual of that much direct transparency. this was one of the most direct method of driving speakers as close as you can get to directly driving the speakers from dac.


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## analogmusic

Hi Paul,
  
 The totaldac seems very interesting, although for me the portability of the Hugo and Dave are really unique.
  
 Would you be able to play some Piano music on the total DAC and compare that to the Dave?
  
 I also recall one of Rob Watts earlier posts on R2R DACS, posted below
  
Except the job of a DAC is *NOT* to reproduce the sampled data perfectly but to reproduce the original bandwidth limited analogue signal that was in the ADC before the signal was sampled. And to do this one must convert from a sampled signal and convert it to a continuous waveform - and that actually implies infinite oversampling, something that a R2R DAC can't do as they are limited to 16FS oversampling due to speed and glitch problems. That's one reason (there are many others too) why Mojo filters to 2048FS and has its DAC run at 104 MHz, unlike any other non Chord DAC's.
  
The aliasing is certainly not limited - yes you can't hear the images directly - but what they do is degrade the timing of transients, which you categorically can hear and to extremely low levels. So aliasing makes a huge difference to sound quality, as it degrades the accuracy of transient information. Transients are used by the brain for perceiving sound-stage, pitch, timbre and of course the starting and stopping of notes. Ever wondered why conventional digital was so poor at reproducing timbre, why you can't follow the bass tune, why it does not image properly or why it all sounds so un-musical? Its mostly down to the uncertainty of transients caused by sampling the continuous analogue signal. Fortunately this is a DAC design problem - with an infinite tap length infinitely oversampled FIR filter it will perfectly recover the original bandwidth limited analogue signal in the ADC - its just that conventional DAC's do not do a good enough job of this.
  
Another major problem with R2R DAC's is their complete inability to accurately reproduce small signals, as it is impossible to perfectly match the resistors - this is categorically not a problem for my pulse array DAC's as element mismatch creates fixed noise not distortion, as all the elements carry the audio signal (unlike R2R DAC's).
  
Rob


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## paul79

Yes, I did compare piano music, loads of it because I find this to be one of the most difficult instruments to get right, and found that they both do a very nice job of this. Excellent attack and sustain for both, with the DAVE giving a bit more energy, sounding more amplified. But.... I find the Twelve is better able to reproduce the wood of the piano for example, has better clarity, and better image focus, with better tonal shadings, perhaps due to its greater transparency.  IMO, YMMV, maybe euphonics, what have you... 
  
 There is no doubt the DAVE is great. I would like to compare the DAVE to the D1 Six as I have not heard this Totaldac. I have however, had the Totaldac Monobloc and the DAVE reminds me allot of this DAC in allot of ways relating to presentation and energy. The Monobloc and the DAVE are more lively sounding than the Twelve for sure! I will also say that the DAVE is clearly better than the Monobloc was in overall refinement. I am going off aural memory with regards to the Monobloc, as I have not had it for quite some time, but the DAVE made me think of it for certain reasons. There is also no question, the DAVE has a much better USB input than any Totaldac, meaning the Totaldac are very digital source dependent. So the value the DAVE provides given you don't need reclockers, super expensive Servers, etc. in front of it for it to shine is really there!
  
 Vincent did mention that the single chassis D1 Six is better than the Monobloc DAC was, and it also has an output stage that has been much upgraded vs. what was in the Monobloc DAC, so I really think the Six would be very close in performance to the DAVE on a DAC only basis. Again, given the Totaldac has a really good source in front of it. If not, forget about it. The DAVE will decimate because it has a much superior USB input.
  
 What I am getting at is, the Totaldac Monobloc had more energy and drive in comparison to the Twelve even, much like the DAVE does, although Monobloc is less refined sounding than DAVE. The DAVE is not allot better than the Monobloc was, but a bit better in every way, and in important musical ways. The Twelve is different... It sounds more transparent to me, better displaying the actual sound of the instruments, the inflections of voices, with better focus, and more dimension. It sounds less amplified and more intimate and personal. MUCH more emotional sounding. It also has the most realistic displays of depth I have ever heard. Not to be confused with laid back, because it absolutely is not. Instruments are present, as if they are in the room with you, even if they are 20-30-40 feet away, they still sound as if they are in your presence if that makes sense, meaning there is body and roundness to the artist with physicality and presence. If this is not accurate, then color me with euphonic euphoria and I frikin love it. It sounds more real to me in my system, YMMV.
  
 I am aware that R2R DAC's have drawbacks, the main one being they roll off early in the higher frequencies as consequence, but DACS that use additional output stages also have transparency problems, and to me, in my system, to my ears, the DAVE is no exception to this, even though it has a very damn good output stage.
  
 There are other companies that use a similar approach to the Twelve:
  
 The Trinity DAC has no output stage, and is R2R
 The MSB Select has no output stage, and is R2R


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## x RELIC x

paul79 said:


> Yes, I did compare piano music, loads of it because I find this to be one of the most difficult instruments to get right, and found that they both do a very nice job of this. Excellent attack and sustain for both, with the DAVE giving a bit more energy, sounding more amplified. But.... I find the Twelve is better able to reproduce the wood of the piano for example, has better clarity, and better image focus, with better tonal shadings, perhaps due to its greater transparency.  IMO, YMMV, maybe euphonics, what have you...
> 
> There is no doubt the DAVE is great. I would like to compare the DAVE to the D1 Six as I have not heard this Totaldac. I have however, had the Totaldac Monobloc and the DAVE reminds me allot of this DAC in allot of ways relating to presentation and energy. The Monobloc and the DAVE are more lively sounding than the Twelve for sure! I will also say that the DAVE is clearly better than the Monobloc was in overall refinement. I am going off aural memory with regards to the Monobloc, as I have not had it for quite some time, but the DAVE made me think of it for certain reasons. There is also no question, the DAVE has a much better USB input than any Totaldac, meaning the Totaldac are very digital source dependent. So the value the DAVE provides given you don't need reclockers, super expensive Servers, etc. in front of it for it to shine is really there!
> 
> ...




The one question on my mind regarding the TotalDAC is, do all the sounds have a similar 'enhancement' to the sound, or is it dependant on the recording? What I like about the DAVE is that if a recording is close mic'd and/or produced flat then the DAVE shows me this quite well. If it's recorded in a live performance then I sense the room/space/depth easily. I absolutely hate it when a piece of gear gives me a false sense of a larger space where it shouldn't exist. Also, with the DAVE, I find that (as Rob says) hard sounds sound hard and soft sounds sound soft, etc., not just a certain quality or enhancement to _every_ recording.

With regard to these things I'm wondering if the TotalDAC makes _everything_ euphonic, or if one can sense the music more as it was recorded/mixed? Of course the only way to truly judge this is to be present at the recording, or to know the conditions of the recording/mix, but at least I feel with the DAVE I get a clear _impression_ of how it was originally recorded. I haven't been able to pick that out before as easily. How is the TotalDAC regarding this?

Also, regarding the output stage, all DACs have an analogue output stage including the Trinity and MSB. The DAVE essentially uses it's line out to also drive headphones because of Rob's unique approach, which is no separate headphone amp stage as such in the chassis for the sake of transparency. It's well documented by Rob so not really comparable to other DACs with a headphone amp.

Edit: I just want to be clear that I'm trying to get a handle on what the TotalDAC brings with regard to what I've mentioned is all. Simply curious is all.


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## lovethatsound

It's well documented by Rob so not really comparable to other Dacs with a headphone amp.This is a good point,when chord do finally release the amp that goes with the Dave ,if it does what it does with headphones,just imagine what it's gonna do to a speaker setup.I think only when that amp is out,your really gonna know what the Dave will really sound like with speakers.


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## JaZZ

From what I get the TotalDAC is even more direct than the DAVE in that it doesn't even have a line-out stage. All the more it would be a shame to not make use of it, but it seems to be dependent on a preamp of some sort just for volume regulation. I probably would go for a passive attenuator in the form of a voltage-dividing network.


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## DaveRedRef-III

jawed said:


> I think it's quite common that power amps are designed to work with "matching" pre-amps. In a sense the power amp is "faulty" if not paired with the synergising pre-amp.
> 
> It seems there aren't many people running DAVE direct into their power amps, apparently due to lack of synergy.
> 
> ...




In line with your suggestion of synergy, I think it may be worth owners of Dave to try matching it with Chord's own power amps. I have the SPM1200 MkII and it works well for me with no preamp. It is very fast and provides
Output Power:
2 x 350 W RMS into 8 Ohms
2 x 620 W RMS into 4 Ohms
2 x 750 W RMS into 2 Ohms

The remainder of this post is directed toward all readers who would be interested.

For me, (I use my Dave with speakers rather than headphones), I think 'the' most important aspect of matching Dave to other components is speed. One should imo get this right before you consider any tweaks to taylor the sound to your liking. Without sufficient speed, we do not hear fully what Dave can do and it will not be a truly natural presentation because the transient presentation will be compromised. Here is an example of what I mean. 

When a bass guitar string is plucked it's sound signature is dynamic in an 'unusual' way. All Guitar strings are tbh but the bass is easier to identify for this purpose. What makes bass guitar note dynamic unusual is that the peak weight of the sound is not immediately after the plucking of the string, there is a delayed 'throw' to the peak dynamic much in the way a bull whip works. This is because guitar strings are elastic. If there is a speed bottleneck in your hifi system this true bass dynamic will not be there and guitar strings will sound hard. The chances are the culprit in the system will be your speaker cables because they are normally the longest cable in your system and will therefore accentuate any speed deficiency. If anybody is wishing to test the speed of their system in this manner but is unfamiliar with the real dynamic of a bass guitar I would suggest listening on headphones first or better still go see some live music at your local pub. A double bass will work also by the way.

Now some may say "I don't listen to music with bass guitar so why bother?" the reason is that with sufficient speed your speakers will work much better. The extra speed delivers a wider more open bandwidth. Deeper bass, cleaner top end, more open mids, better imaging.

For anybody interested, so far the only speaker cable I have heard which 100% passes the test (at any price) is the TQ Black Diamond. I would assume the Silver Diamond too as the company rates it higher. So far this has not been an exhaustive test of many cables so I am confident there will be other cables which match Dave well in the speed dept, however I have tested some 5 figure cables which have failed my test so it's not about throwing money at it. Some manufacturers focus on speed some don't it seems. Using Dave without suitably fast components and then criticising it is rather like driving a Ferrari with 60 profile tyres and then claiming a Maserati can beat it round the track.


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## analogmusic

from what I read, the totalDAC designer uses an FPGA filter for high frequencies only to compensate for high frequency roll off.


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## Jawed

I just wanted to pull some specifics out of the original "review" text:


paul79 said:


> It also does something I found kind of interesting.... Some of my recordings that were not so well previously, sounded better through the DAVE, where others sounded worse, and even overly sibilant at times. These are different file resolutions for the most part, so maybe the filtering for said resolution vs. another is better with one than another? I don't know, but I found this interesting.
> 
> Good recordings sound wonderful and completely unharmed doing nothing but justice, of course, and worse recordings were a bit of a mixed bag, so take that for what its worth



This, to me, speaks of making recordings sound more different from each other. Rob talks about this as the single most important thing he designs for. Back in the 90s I worked out for myself that this is the correct way to determine which of two competing systems is better.

Lots of hi-fi is designed to sound beguiling, flattering and inoffensive. These things all diminish the difference between recordings. e.g. it's very common for hi-fi racks to have a softening effect on a system, which people interpret as preferable.



> Although the dynamics are world class, not as explosive as the DAVE. [...] Bass does not have the slam of the DAVE. It is a more tuneful bass with the Twelve. Sort of like comparing horn bass to direct radiator bass. It fills the room, is very focused and deep, but it does not hit super hard. [...]The DAVE is just slightly faster sounding better keeping up with drum rolls FE...



These comments paint a picture to me of the Twelve as being "soft".



> DAVE also has the edge with forward delineation, meaning a duo or trio of singers that are close together and forward for instance, is better than any digital I have heard at *keeping them separate and never smearing together*. This is VERY cool and important.



This last comment is probably the clincher out of everything you have written. This ability is the one thing that people point out for all of Chord's current DACs.

This last comment is also, to me, the actual meaning of transparency.

There have been quite a few people writing about using amplification after DAVE (or other Chord DACs) because they like the "bigger soundstage", and describing it as transparency (usually this is people talking about using a headphone amplifier). It can only be an effect. Like reverb is an effect.

Since power amps often depend on a matching pre-amp to sound "right" it's harder to talk about transparency versus this "reverb effect", since it's impossible to separate out the native sound of the power amp (it's literally "broken" if not driven by its matching pre-amp). When people report that DAVE sounds worse in a system because it's being used as the pre-amp (versus feeding into a pre-amp) that is, to me, a pretty strong indicator that the system after DAVE could be better.


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## JaZZ

analogmusic said:


> from what I read, the totalDAC designer uses an FPGA filter for high frequencies only to compensate for high frequency roll off.


 
  
 It must be a purely analogue filter, since the TotalDAC explicitly renounces oversampling.


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## paul79

x relic x said:


> The one question on my mind regarding the TotalDAC is, do all the sounds have a similar 'enhancement' to the sound, or is it dependant on the recording? What I like about the DAVE is that if a recording is close mic'd and/or produced flat then the DAVE shows me this quite well. If it's recorded in a live performance then I sense the room/space/depth easily. I absolutely hate it when a piece of gear gives me a false sense of a larger space where it shouldn't exist. Also, with the DAVE, I find that (as Rob says) hard sounds sound hard and soft sounds sound soft, etc., not just a certain quality or enhancement to _every_ recording.
> 
> With regard to these things I'm wondering if the TotalDAC makes _everything_ euphonic, or if one can sense the music more as it was recorded/mixed? Of course the only way to truly judge this is to be present at the recording, or to know the conditions of the recording/mix, but at least I feel with the DAVE I get a clear _impression_ of how it was originally recorded. I haven't been able to pick that out before as easily. How is the TotalDAC regarding this?
> 
> ...


 

 IMO, The Twelve is very brutally honest and album to album comparisons have no sameness. If it is flat, it is flat, deep is deep, if the performance is more energetic, it is energetic, small is small, big is big, if the recording has a problem, it is laid threadbare FE lacking focus, sharpness, smear, etc. I don't find enhancement broadspread whatsoever. Everything is just more clear and intimate, intimate meaning closer, more transparent, able to see the inner workings of the artists more and a lower noise floor. I don't think of transparency as having a false sence of bigger soundstage or some beguiling glow put on top of everything...... I think of transparency as the ability to hear more the sounds of the instruments, the ability to see something real happening in front of me, the artists emotion coming through with nothing between.
  
 I mean look, the Twelve is different. It really has to be experienced to fully understand. You can pick apart my review any way you like, and you really don't have to worry, as the DAVE is a fantastic DAC, and I fully understand what it is capable of and what it does different than many other DAC's. It is a monster at its price in comparison to other DAC's I have tried at and above its price point.
  
 The Twelve is soft with regards to bass slam, but not bass quantity and focus. It is not soft in relation to leading edge, attack, and dynamics, and is in fact, more rangy in this regard with relation to soft to loud sounds. This along with the low noise floor, are correlated to the greater depth portrayal IMO. The other Totaldac's have tons of slam and drive.
  
 The Trinity, Twelve, nor the MSB Select have an active output stage as far as I know.
 All of the Totaldacs have a mode to select the high frequency compensation or not. It is a FIR Filter. Here is Vincent's description:
  
*"FIR compensation filter:*
_*Non-oversampling DACs are known for their musicality but they all have a problem, the frequency response is not flat and the treble loss is more than 3 dB at 20KHz. This is called sinus(x)/x loss. All DACs with oversampling compensate the sin(x)/x loss in their digital filter. On the TOTALDAC board I didn't want to use oversampling because I prefer non-oversampling DAC sound, but I used a FIR filter to compensate the sin(x)/x loss. It is a short FIR for high frequencies only, so response before impact is short and is not a problem."*_
  
 The Twelve likes a preamp for driving the majority of amps, because it does not put out allot of voltage and has a higher output impedance. However, if your amp has an input impedance of 47K and above or so, with a voltage to max power under 1.5V or so, the Twelve will run it very well. The Monobloc DAC was much better at driving all amps directly, but it sounds nothing like the Twelve with regards to transparency and noise floor, even with a preamp in the loop. This tells me that the Twelve takes care of an obvious problem, the active output stage. Yes, I know, same could be said for my preamp. To my ears though, it does not harm much in the way of transparency, and it doesn't sound false to me. Twelve direct is supremely transparent, and I hear this with the preamp in the loop also.
  
 I am not going to deny either, that my system after the DAVE or the Totaldac could be better, but as a whole, it frikin works and paints the most convincing event picture(s) I have ever heard. It scales with every upgrade that have been made to the Server, network equipment, cabling, etc.


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## rgs9200m

I feel it is a longstanding philosophical question of whether a DAC should attempt to remake the digital input it receives into its own interpretation of what a good analog musical output should be,
 or just reflect the quality of what it is fed.
 (Or something in between?)
 When I hear a recording that suffers from digital glare, grain, or some or fatigue, I often wish the DAC would scramble things to create something in its own image.
 I suppose this would be a much more active form of error correction.


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## paul79

I hear you. It is also something to strip away artifacts so much that more music you thought was unbearable somehow becomes listenable. The DAVE does this. Totaldac does this.


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## x RELIC x

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






paul79 said:


> IMO, The Twelve is very brutally honest and album to album comparisons have no sameness. If it is flat, it is flat, deep is deep, if the performance is more energetic, it is energetic, small is small, big is big, if the recording has a problem, it is laid threadbare FE lacking focus, sharpness, smear, etc. I don't find enhancement broadspread whatsoever. Everything is just more clear and intimate, intimate meaning closer, more transparent, able to see the inner workings of the artists more and a lower noise floor. I don't think of transparency as having a false sence of bigger soundstage or some beguiling glow put on top of everything...... I think of transparency as the ability to hear more the sounds of the instruments, the ability to see something real happening in front of me, the artists emotion coming through with nothing between.
> 
> I mean look, the Twelve is different. It really has to be experienced to fully understand. You can pick apart my review any way you like, and you really don't have to worry, as the DAVE is a fantastic DAC, and I fully understand what it is capable of and what it does different than many other DAC's. It is a monster at its price in comparison to other DAC's I have tried at and above its price point.
> 
> ...






Not trying to pick apart your review, and I've never heard the TotalDAC. I just had some questions and you answered them. Thank you.

Regarding output I was simply being picky as you said the other DACs don't have an output, but they have to at least output the line out, weak or not, through RCA or XLR, so yes, they have an output. I'm not specifying a pre-amp stage for the other DACs mentioned, and I personally don't consider the DAVE to have a pre-amp stage as the volume is controlled digitally and the single output stage is very simple, even though it has different memories for different outputs.


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## paul79

Yes, of course, the Twelve has a physical connectable output. So do any other audio components. What I am saying is, it does not have an active output stage after the DAC. The single ended output of the Twelve is derived directly off the DAC's, with nothing in between.
  
 He does offer the option to have a capacitor coupled output with the Twelve, and this is standard. He also offers a capacitor-less output in addition to a capacitor output optionally. So you can have both. Mine has both, and the capacitor-less output is the one I use and is very slightly better, so he uses a good capacitor on the capacitor output. The Cap Coupled output is safer, and presents no harmful DC Offset in the event of a turn off. This is more for people who use the Twelve with solid state equipment that has no tolerance for any DC Offset, and to eliminate pops at power on/off. The balanced output of the Twelve is also really single ended, but Vincent offers transformer adapters for this to convert the single ended xlr output to a true differential balanced output for balanced systems.


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## rgs9200m

paul79 said:


> I hear you. It is also something to strip away artifacts so much that more music you thought was unbearable somehow becomes listenable. The DAVE does this. Totaldac does this.


 
 Thank you. But can't you do both? (Remove nasty artifacts and actively translate the input to the designer's vision of musicality?)


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## paul79

Most designers design for the measured performance they are seeking, then tune in listening tests. As far as rebuilding a broken recording, I am just not sure how this could be done with a DAC. This would have to be done at the source, and is one reason people like HQ Player, for example, so that they can assign filters for certain recordings.
  
 The DAVE does offer an optional filter for a possible improvement to unsatisfactory recordings. This is something I need to play with more.


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## ecwl

As a total aside, did you all see that on the Chord Facebook page, they announced that Chord DAVE won the Rocky Mountain International HiFi Press Award 2016 at the Rocky Mountain AudioFest for best DAC?
  
 It seems that the competitions this year were

AudioQuest Dragonfly Red
Aqua La Scala MKII
Exogal Comet Plus
MSB Technology Analog DAC


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## romaz

Hi, I'm back.  I appreciate all the well wishes as I've struggled with some family issues.  As a physician, I deal with advanced disease all day long but when a close family member comes down with advanced cancer, it's never easy.  As her condition has stabilized for the time being, it allowed me to get away to Colorado to attend RMAF over the weekend and I will post findings that may be of interest regarding the DAVE.  During the weekend, it also gave me time to jump back on Head-Fi and catch up on lots of great posts, especially by @paul79.  A very interesting perspective from a respected audiophile and friend.  I will share my own commentary soon.
  
 Regarding RMAF, DAVEand the other Chord DACs were well represented at the CanJam tent.  I got a chance to hang out with Edd and Tom from Chord, really wonderful guys.  They are exploring the Rockies today for the very first time on their only day off.  Hopefully, it's a great adventure.  In the 2-channel speaker section of RMAF, DAVE and TT were well represented in the High Fidelity Cables rooms and DAVE played front and center in the Voxativ room.  More to follow...


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## paul79

Hey Roy! So glad to hear of the improvement in your family members trying time.... My best to all of you and yours regarding, and I believe most all here can understand the severity of this disease, especially when it happens to a family member. It is all too commonplace anymore.
  
 Look forward to your thoughts Roy, of the show, and catching up here!


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## EVOLVIST

paul79 said:


> The DAVE does offer an optional filter for a possible improvement to unsatisfactory recordings. This is something I need to play with more.




What filter for a possible improvement of an unsatisfactory recording? 

You have the HF setting and that's it. To me, if it's a crummy recording, I can dig those sounds, too, because the DAVE really let's you hear what's wrong with it. That can be a fun listen, as well. 

@Romaz, it's good to see you back. Blessings to you and your family. 

Some recent observation that go along with my DAVE and experience:

I think the DAVE is more agnostic to peripherals than I originally thought. I just tried a score of high-end power cords (with some more on the way), and most did nothing, some did more harm than good, and one was too warm and flat. I also auditioned a pair of HFCs MC-0.5s and I heard nada. Plugged them in by the 4kTV...and bupkes, all over a few days span of time, letting them sit.

My caveat, though, is two-fold. 1.) I have an power transformer right in backyard. Literally, sitting in the corner of my yard. There are only 4 houses on the grid. Am I getting extraordinary power, or a straighter line to crappy juice? I'm leaning toward the former. And 2.) I've come to realize that the bottleneck in my system is my HD800s. Not power (I still use my beautiful PS Audio balanced P300), not so much cables, just the synergy between the DAVE and the stock HF800s, with that 6-7khz spike is nagging and fatiguing. Time to try Focal Utopias or Abyss.

Regardless, I do believe the DAVE can shine on it's own without super expensive filtering cables and the like. But if the bottleneck is my cans? That's one helluva bottleneck.


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## esimms86

romaz said:


> Hi, I'm back.  I appreciate all the well wishes as I've struggled with some family issues.  As a physician, I deal with advanced disease all day long but when a close family member comes down with advanced cancer, it's never easy.  As her condition has stabilized for the time being, it allowed me to get away to Colorado to attend RMAF over the weekend and I will post findings that may be of interest regarding the DAVE.  During the weekend, it also gave me time to jump back on Head-Fi and catch up on lots of great posts, especially by @paul79.  A very interesting perspective from a respected audiophile and friend.  I will share my own commentary soon.
> 
> Regarding RMAF, DAVEand the other Chord DACs were well represented at the CanJam tent.  I got a chance to hang out with Edd and Tom from Chord, really wonderful guys.  They are exploring the Rockies today for the very first time on their only day off.  Hopefully, it's a great adventure.  In the 2-channel speaker section of RMAF, DAVE and TT were well represented in the High Fidelity Cables rooms and DAVE played front and center in the Voxativ room.  More to follow...


 

 Welcome back Roy. My prayers and best wishes are with you and your family.
  
 Esau


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## lojay

romaz said:


> Hi, I'm back.  I appreciate all the well wishes as I've struggled with some family issues.  As a physician, I deal with advanced disease all day long but when a close family member comes down with advanced cancer, it's never easy.  As her condition has stabilized for the time being, it allowed me to get away to Colorado to attend RMAF over the weekend and I will post findings that may be of interest regarding the DAVE.  During the weekend, it also gave me time to jump back on Head-Fi and catch up on lots of great posts, especially by @paul79.  A very interesting perspective from a respected audiophile and friend.  I will share my own commentary soon.
> 
> Regarding RMAF, DAVEand the other Chord DACs were well represented at the CanJam tent.  I got a chance to hang out with Edd and Tom from Chord, really wonderful guys.  They are exploring the Rockies today for the very first time on their only day off.  Hopefully, it's a great adventure.  In the 2-channel speaker section of RMAF, DAVE and TT were well represented in the High Fidelity Cables rooms and DAVE played front and center in the Voxativ room.  More to follow...


 


 Welcome back Roy, my best wishes to your family in these difficult times.


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## Beolab

romaz said:


> Hi, I'm back.  I appreciate all the well wishes as I've struggled with some family issues.  As a physician, I deal with advanced disease all day long but when a close family member comes down with advanced cancer, it's never easy.  As her condition has stabilized for the time being, it allowed me to get away to Colorado to attend RMAF over the weekend and I will post findings that may be of interest regarding the DAVE.  During the weekend, it also gave me time to jump back on Head-Fi and catch up on lots of great posts, especially by @paul79
> .  A very interesting perspective from a respected audiophile and friend.  I will share my own commentary soon.
> 
> Regarding RMAF, DAVEand the other Chord DACs were well represented at the CanJam tent.  I got a chance to hang out with Edd and Tom from Chord, really wonderful guys.  They are exploring the Rockies today for the very first time on their only day off.  Hopefully, it's a great adventure.  In the 2-channel speaker section of RMAF, DAVE and TT were well represented in the High Fidelity Cables rooms and DAVE played front and center in the Voxativ room.  More to follow...




Glad your back Roy! 

Hope your relative going to overcome the cancer, but it is not an easy task! 

Bought the Dragonfly Red for the car, and the sound gone from hifi car sound , to competition performance. 
Have also tryed out the Mojo, and it is even better in the presentation of depht and layering and positioning, but for the asking price of the Dragonfly Red you get 98% of what the AK 380 SQ in my opinion, because the speakers in the car is not that ultra revolving so that could also be a factor. 

Next step will be to try out the DAVE in the car, just as a test 

Real fun that DAVE won the price at the Rocky Mountains! 

Wounder if Rob have learned anything from the developing of Davina and the new Blu transport , so it is woth to make an upgrade for the DAVE yet or not? 

Just a side note: 

Canabis Oil where something i was very skeptic about, but a friend of mine who have emigrated to Thailand got cancer last year, and he do not trust the huge farmacy medicine companies and did not want to take any kemo, so the doctors said he should only live for about 3 month time, and today he have start working and the cancer have reduced to just a small fraction of what it was from the begining, just because of the oil cuts of the nutrition receptors of it. 

What is your oppinion of this, can this be an alternative or even a better method maby, or does it got a back side of it? 


/ Fredrik


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> Glad your back Roy!
> 
> Hope your relative going to overcome the cancer, but it is not an easy task!
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, Fredrik.  Similar to your experience, I have had patients tell me cannabis oil cured them of their cancer or at least prolong their life but I have no personal experience with it.  When you have a terminal condition and all the standard options are not working, then I don't blame anyone for looking at all of their options.
  
 Like you, I am trying to figure out some way to replace my car's DAC with a Mojo.  Unfortunately, my car's preamp has no analog inputs and so it will require a more significant overhaul.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> Thanks, Fredrik.  Similar to your experience, I have had patients tell me cannabis oil cured them of their cancer or at least prolong their life but I have no personal experience with it.  When you have a terminal condition and all the standard options are not working, then I don't blame anyone for looking at all of their options.
> 
> Like you, I am trying to figure out some way to replace my car's DAC with a Mojo.  Unfortunately, my car's preamp has no analog inputs and so it will require a more significant overhaul.




Have you read any clinical studies of the oil, or does the huge pharmacy companies try to quiet this down, or what is your experience of it? 

Yes im very fortuned that i got a analog AUX beside the USB input in my BMW, and i had to reduce the bass from 0db to -2 db gain with the Dragonfly and Mojo, but the mojo is more refined. 

In my second BMW M3 i had to install a AUX input ( special BMW data input aux cable), because it did not exist, but luckily the pre amp had the input on the backside of the units canbus cable harness, so check this with Tesla and Audi if they can install this, i think it should be possible.


----------



## tunes

I am considering buying a Dave. If I am in London with the pound now less than the USD how much could I save ??


----------



## EVOLVIST

Yes, cannabis is good stuff for a lot of stuff. I suggest that we all try it with DAVE.


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## Beolab

evolvist said:


> Yes, cannabis is good stuff for a lot of stuff. I suggest that we all try it with DAVE.




You do get better holographic 3D and a more life like experience then i can assume if you have tried it out with DAVE ?


----------



## theveterans

evolvist said:


> Yes, cannabis is good stuff for a lot of stuff. I suggest that we all try it with DAVE.


 
  
 Nah. Not strong enough. Lysergic acid diethylamide is what I recommend


----------



## bigfatpaulie

Welcome back, Roy!!
  
 I am so glad to hear things have stabilized.  My mother was diagnosed with cancer (it was small and caught early, she's fine) this year and it is certainly a core shaker.  I wish you and yours nothing but the best.
  
 I've been using the DAVE with the Utopia's and I have to say the pairing is really fantastic.


----------



## ExtremeGamerBR

Cannabis improve the perception to details and really is a more life like experience. And I say that with any gear. I don't have a DAVE.
  
 Anyway, DAVE is the only high-end DAC that a really like. I would love to listen to it.


----------



## romaz

bigfatpaulie said:


> Welcome back, Roy!!
> 
> I am so glad to hear things have stabilized.  My mother was diagnosed with cancer (it was small and caught early, she's fine) this year and it is certainly a core shaker.  I wish you and yours nothing but the best.
> 
> I've been using the DAVE with the Utopia's and I have to say the pairing is really fantastic.


 
 Thanks, Paul.  Glad to hear your mother's doing well!
  
 I heard the Utopia with the DAVE this weekend and I completely agree.  When you combine its impressive resolution, smooth tonality, comfort, light weight, looks and the fact that it can be driven well by almost anything, if I had to own just one headphone, this could be it.


----------



## EVOLVIST

bigfatpaulie said:


> I've been using the DAVE with the Utopia's and I have to say the pairing is really fantastic.




As that with the CT-1 in the DAVE, too, Paul? 

I plugged a well broken in CT-1 PC from The Cable Co. into the DAVE today, going from my P300 into a MC-6 power conditioner, and the sound was super fine. A great deal of that harshness from the HD800 to the DAVE pairing was simply wiped away. No joke. All of it done without any coloration at all. 

It now makes me wonder what the CT-1 Ultimate would sound like with the DAVE. 

The DAVE is simply a thing of beauty.


----------



## x RELIC x

A beautiful pair. The resolution/detail, dynamics, and musicality are strong here.


----------



## Sonic77

x relic x said:


> A beautiful pair. The resolution/detail, dynamics, and musicality are strong here.


Congratulations that's a very nice set up.


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> As that with the CT-1 in the DAVE, too, Paul?
> 
> I plugged a well broken in CT-1 PC from The Cable Co. into the DAVE today, going from my P300 into a MC-6 power conditioner, and the sound was super fine. A great deal of that harshness from the HD800 to the DAVE pairing was simply wiped away. No joke. All of it done without any coloration at all.
> 
> ...


 
 The MC-0.5, which is a parallel device, has the weakest effect of all HFC's products but it can give you a taste of what this magnetic technology can offer, especially with really bad power.  The CT-1 and MC-6 power conditioner are "in series" devices and obviously result in a greater effect although the impact along with the MC-0.5s are additive.  In my own experience, things didn't get really good until I reached the CT-1 Ultimate.  Unfortunately, their really good stuff is expensive but I have yet to find anything that can do what they can do.  Here's bacon333's review of the CT-1 Ultimate and his DAVE:
  
 https://audiobacon.net/2016/08/02/high-fidelity-ct-1-ultimate-power-cord-and-mc-0-5-review/
  
 Several have commented on the complementary effects of a PS Audio AC Regenerator and HFC products as they work very differently in achieving a similar purpose and so it would appear you are experiencing what other's have.  While the impact of HFC's power products can be significant, in my own system, their signal products are even more impactful.  As you've stated, they add no coloration but they have really brought out the finest qualities of my DAVE.


----------



## onsionsi

Welcome back @romaz and i wish your family have a good health now.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

evolvist said:


> As that with the CT-1 in the DAVE, too, Paul?
> 
> ...
> 
> The DAVE is simply a thing of beauty.


 
  
 Yes, sir!
  
 And, yes, sir, it is.
  
 I keep considering the CT1 Ultimate...  But it is just so, so dear.  Maybe one of these days.


----------



## EVOLVIST

romaz said:


> Thanks, Paul.  Glad to hear your mother's doing well!
> 
> I heard the Utopia with the DAVE this weekend and I completely agree.  When you combine its impressive resolution, smooth tonality, comfort, light weight, looks and the fact that it can be driven well by almost anything, if I had to own just one headphone, this could be it.


 
  
 And compared to the Abyss with the DAVE? Are you switching over?


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> And compared to the Abyss with the DAVE? Are you switching over?


 
 Both have their strengths and it would be great to own both.  Abyss images better and has better bass.  Utopias resolve better and can sound more seductive with vocals. Utopias are much more comfortable and look better, too.  I would be self-conscious walking around in public with my Abyss on my head.  No such worries with the Utopias.  DAVE drives both well but since Mojo can drive the Utopias, this becomes a great travel headphone.
  
 Ultimately, I am still looking for headphone drivers that sound as good as my ALNICO monitors. I have hope since Voxativ is expecting to come out with headphones soon (2017).  I suggest you look out for this one.  This will be the first headphone produced by a boutique speaker manufacturer.


----------



## romaz

paul79 said:


> I have had the DAVE here for awhile, and I feel it is time to share my thoughts.... Yes, that means it was put up against the Totaldac System Twelve, 4 box masterpiece from Vincent. This is on my 2ch speaker system.


 
  
 A well-articulated review, Paul, and a very enjoyable read!  I would agree that in the end, what matters most is what we each like and that there's no right or wrong, only personal preference.  I also agree that system synergy can be more important than the superiority of any one component.  I thought I'd provide my own comments.  Some are in full accord with yours while some are in contrast although please know I fully respect what a meticulous system builder you are.  I have learned much from you.  Never having heard Vincent's best DAC, the d1-twelve, your perspective on this is unique and of great interest to me, however, I will later share the experience of another individual, a former business partner of Vincent's who owns several TotalDacs and has heard the entire line including the d1-twelve and the newer d1-twelve SE and d1-six.  Just this weekend, we both had an opportunity to compare his customized TotalDac against my DAVE and so I will share that experience:
  


paul79 said:


> The DAVE clearly prefers to be used with the USB input. No question, this is the best and only way to use it IMO.... Very killer USB input that does not care near as much about the source as some (all?) other DAC's do. They still matter, but not to near the degree I have experienced with other DAC's. DAVE is also a PCM DAC through and through. DSD is good too, but PCM slays on this machine.


 
  
 I completely agree.  This is why the only DSD files I buy are files that were natively recorded with a DSD recorder.  If they were transcoded from some other format, including analog, I stay away simply because PCM on the DAVE sounds better.
  


paul79 said:


> The Totaldac Twelve is the more romantic, more intimate and more transparent sounding performer.
> 
> ...the Twelve is more intimate and extremely emotional sounding to me, and it does this without sacrificing resolution/transparency.


 
  
 I struggle to understand what you mean here and with a few other similar statements.  You can't be romantic and intimate all the time and also be transparent.  You also can't love euphonics and claim to equally love transparency.  One is colored and the other is not.  One of the things that drew me to the DAVE was its truthfulness and therefore, its variability.  With romantic and intimate recordings, it can sound romantic and intimate.  With sterile recordings, it can sound sterile.  If a recording is flat, that's how DAVE will sound.  With harsh recordings, yes, the DAVE can sound harsh.  It doesn't portray any unintended harmonic which can, unfortunately, make it sound unimpressive at times but at its core, it is very truthful and resolute.  I will go out on a limb to say it is the highest resolution DAC on the planet today based on Rob's philosophy about building DACs.  
  


paul79 said:


> Nice energy and dynamics, very dimensional albeit a bit shallower soundstage than I was expecting. Yes, I know this goes against all said about its depth capabilities, but that was my finding in my system. However though, the soundstage is deeper than any other DAC I have tried with exception to the Totaldac Twelve and Totaldac *Monobloc*.
> 
> With the Twelve, _*artists are in the room*_, full bodied, full scale, and with a _*deeper*_ soundstage so you are better able to see the far reaches and go as deep as you want to go.


 
  
 This is where we differ in our opinions.  As you know, we both owned the TotalDac d1-monoblocs at one time and _*depth*_ was the one aspect that drew me to the DAVE more than any other and I am very sensitive to it.  To my ears, both with speakers and headphones, DAVE _easily_ portrayed more realistic depth than the monobloc.  I'm not talking about artifical reverb introduced by the mixer in a studio recording which any DAC can portray but actual depth that is present in an acoustical recording.  If a DAC is colored, I have found that one of the first things that gets compromised is depth.  I discovered this with my tube buffer experiment that had a variable bias.  With the tube in full effect, there was this nice romantic bloom, what I had been used to hearing in the past and enjoyed once upon a time.  As I turned the knob to minimize the impact of the tube and then ultimately bypassed the tube, while the romantic coloration gradually went away, it was replaced with increased clarity and depth.  Forced to choose between sweet and romantic vs clear and truthful, I now choose the latter even with all its warts.  Rob has explained why R2R DACs struggle to portray accurate depth and it makes sense.  Here is his post and it specifically relates to the 0.01% Vishay Foil resistor that all TotalDacs use:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/2700#post_12540070
  
 Lastly, with the DAVE, I wouldn't use "artists are in the room" as much as I would use "listener transported to the venue."  You really get a much truer sense of the venue of a live recording. 
   
 Quote:


paul79 said:


> The DAVE is just slightly faster sounding better keeping up with drum rolls FE... DAVE also has the edge with forward delineation, meaning a duo or trio of singers that are close together and forward for instance, is better than any digital I have heard at keeping them separate and never smearing together.


 
  
 I find speed to be a necessary hallmark of transparency and resolution and so I'm glad we agree that the DAVE excels here.  I also consider it paramount to be able to convey convincing depth and layering of detail.  An even better descriptor would be agility or the ability to start and stop quickly.  Rob frequently talks about being able to hear when a note starts and stops, something I find the DAVE to do better than anything else.  Without this quality, you get a soft and smeared sound and while this can be a forgiving sound, it is not my preference.
  
 Please know that I don't doubt that you're hearing what you're hearing but it makes me wonder if there's something in your system that prevents the DAVE from showing you all that it can do.  I used to think my system was transparent.  I think we all think our systems are transparent until we hear something better.  Transparency took a whole new meaning when I decided to directly power my speakers with my DAVE.  Speed, subtle detail, nuance and especially depth all improved.  Depth by as much as 20% in my estimation.  I would say this one move has made a greater difference than anything I have ever done (especially with my HFC speaker cables) and so there's no question that your euphonic preamp and amp are getting in the way of transparency and resolution.  When Chord's digital amps come out next year, I don't think there will be any question about what the DAVE can do.


----------



## romaz

paul79 said:


> There is no displacement for a good tube preamp with any DAC I have tried.


 
  
 I struggle with this statement as well.  Preamps are sometimes necessary to incorporate an analog device or multiple sources.  They can be useful tone controls if one is looking for color (and there's nothing wrong with this).  Occasionally, they are necessary to smoothen out a hard and grainy DAC or transistor amp.  Sometimes, they are necessary for impedance matching or to provide the amp more voltage or current because the source lacks it.  Sometimes you need them for volume attenuation but all preamps, no matter how good will impact transparency and therefore resolution.  Every connector, resistor, piece of wire or solder will have an effect.  Even the very best analog potentiometer will impact it and so to say that a preamp is completely transparent would be false.  Nothing can be more transparent than the original DAC signal.  And regarding the DAVE's digital volume control, because of the design of Rob's noise shaper, there is absolutely no truncation of resolution at any level of attenuation up until mute.  Not even TotalDac's 69-bit digital volume control can match this.  Vincent had made this clear to me.
  
 With regards to MSB, I know they feel the same way about preamps.  Their Select II is a hybrid R2R DAC and actually has an active output stage which is powerful enough to drive certain headphones directly via XLR and they have publicly stated this on the MSB thread here on Head-Fi.  Having spoken to Vince Galbo about this, he has said that from their Diamond DAC on up, when a customer tells him they prefer the sound of their DAC connected to a preamp, he's puzzled because this almost never happens and so he worries in those instances that their DAC was improperly set up.  In MSB's own words, based on their experience with their DACs, "no preamp is better than any preamp."
  
 At RMAF this past weekend, I took my DAVE with me.  Audio Precision happened to be there and so I had them measure it.  Here is a photo:
  

  
 The photo below represents the DAVE's distortion measurements:
  

  
 While it's hard to see, hopefully, you can appreciate that the red tracing is roughly the same as the blue tracing and that they are both at the bottom of the y axis.  One tracing represents the DAVE's distortion measurements while the other represents the noise floor of the APx555.  This means the distortion of the DAVE is so low that it is _just barely_ measurable by what many consider to be the most sensitive analyzer in existence today.  According to the AP analyst that measured my DAVE, the measurements he got were the best he has ever seen for a DAC.  There is absolutely no outboard analog preamp that can match this.
  
 Just to be sure, here are some examples of the THD+noise at 1kHz of some of the best preamps I know.  Unfortunately, I was unable to find measurements for your excellent NBS preamp but I suspect they will be in the same range:
  
 Chord DAVE:  0.000015% at 2.5V 
 VAC Statement Preamp ($75,000):  0.007% at 1V
 Audio Research Reference 10 ($30,000):  0.006% at 2V
 Pass Labs Xs preamp ($38,,000):  0.001% at 5V
  
 Looking at the above examples, on average, the best preamps have *300x* more distortion than the DAVE!  You could argue that some of this distortion is even-order harmonic distortion but there's no way this is transparent.  Almost certainly, there will be a similar chasm when it comes to noise floor and so to subject the DAVE to any of these preamps would be to lose these advantages.  Now, the astute among us will point out that if the performance characteristics of the DAVE aren't lost in the preamp, they'll for sure be buried in the distortion and noise of the speaker amp and unfortunately, this is true but distortion and noise are additive.  Why add another layer of distortion and noise when it isn't necessary?  For many 2-channel speaker audiophiles, headphone listeners are looked upon as the inferior stepchild but the reality is with something like the DAVE, there is no more transparent, more resolute and distortion-free listening experience available today than DAVE direct to headphone.  Once Chord's digital amps come out next year, I think the speaker world will finally realize the true depth of DAVE's potential.
  
 Now, some, including yourself, have suggested that the DAVE sounds better with a preamp than without.  There is an explanation for this.  While any preamp will only worsen the transparency of a DAC, sometimes they are necessary to improve the performance of an amplifier and so I agree with what @Jawed said about this.  DAVE has an excellent output impedance, superior to any DAC when single ended (0.055 ohms) and so that's not the problem.  As far as voltage drive, while single-ended, DAVE puts out 6V rms and balanced, it puts out 12V rms which are pretty decent numbers.  There are some amps, however, that apparently crave more than this.  While the Spectral amps have input sensitivies of only 1.5V, I am told by one of their dealers that they prefer much more voltage to sound good and so the Spectral Reference preamp puts out up to 36V but at 36V, I can assure you there will be distortion consequences and their measurements reflect this.  Another area where the DAVE can fall short is with current output and this may be the most likely cause of problems.  DAVE, when single-ended, is limited to 0.5A of current output and while balanced, it is limited even more to 0.05A.  Some amps require higher current than this to sound their best.  When these amps don't get enough signal current, they will sound thin, shallow and slow.  This is what I have been told by several amp manufacturers.  Those who experience a thin and anemic sound with their DAVE driving their amp directly are probably dealing with this problem and so in these instances, make sure you're using DAVE's RCA outputs which put out 10x more current.  If this still isn't enough current, then you may have no choice but to use a preamp.  Should this become necessary and if ultimate transparency is your goal with your speaker setup, my suggestion would be to buy a different amp.  This is an instance where synergy is more important than any of the individual components.
  
 While at RMAF this weekend, I approached VAC (Valve Amplification Company) and asked if I could listen to their system using my DAVE both with and without their $27,000 VAC Master tube preamp in the chain.  Kevin Hayes, VAC's founder and designer of the entire VAC line of amps and preamps was on hand and was happy to grant my request.  He said that without exception, with his amps, he had yet to hear a DAC that didn't benefit from having one of his preamps in the chain because his tube amps require a good amount of signal current to sound their best and so I believe he wanted to prove this to me.  While he was aware of the DAVE, he had never experienced it before.  Here is the VAC room at RMAF.  Combined with the VAC Master tube preamp ($27,000) are a pair of VAC's Signature 200iQ (200 watts) tube monoblocks ($12,000 each) and a pair of Harbeth 40.2 speakers ($15,000):
  

  
 Here's a close up view of the VAC Master preamp.  The photo doesn't depict the large separate power supply on the shelf below:
  

  
 Here's a photo of my DAVE sitting on top of VAC's Master preamp:
  

  
 The DAVE replaced the tube DAC they were using for the show and was fed with an Aurender N100 music server via USB.  I was free to select any of the tracks on their Aurender and I chose a mix of large orchestral (Mahler's 4th), four string quartet, small ensemble jazz (Dave Brubeck), female vocal (Patricia Barber), piano solo and guitar solo.  All were 16/44 or better PCM.  All were acoustical live recordings with plenty of depth.  In the room with me was Kevin Hayes (VAC's founder), another VAC engineer along with several VAC sales people.  Of course, I was convinced they would all prefer the presentation with their preamp in the chain and so I was prepared for this.  Fortunately, in the room was another show attendee who wanted to stay to hear the comparison and so I was hoping he would have no bias.  
  
 The first session involved DAVE feeding the VAC monoblocks *directly* and all I can tell you is that everything sounded simply glorious.  Incredible dynamics, rich detail, wonderful organic flow and yes, cavernous depth and instantly better than the presentation from the tube DAC they were using.  I had to acknowledge that not only did the DAVE sound wonderful but that these VAC amps also sounded splendid.  I have always liked Harbeths but I don't recall ever having this kind of emotional experience with Harbeths before.  I looked back at Kevin and he had no real emotion on his face.  I imagine he would make a good poker player.
  
 The second session involved DAVE feeding the Master preamp which then fed the VAC monoblocks.  The same tracks were played.  Because of a shortage of time, we had no time to do any back and forth A/B comparisons and so it was difficult to do any microscopic comparisons which is what I like to do but what we heard with the preamp, if I am to be honest, was _equally_ splendid.  With the preamp in place, it was a slightly smoother presentation but it came at the compromise of a slight reduction in dynamics.  There was perhaps a bit more air around the voices and instruments although the perception of depth was exceptional in both cases.  Whether these differences were real or imagined is difficult to say because there was no opportunity to A/B back and forth but to say that one presentation was better than the other in any one area would have been to split hairs.  When the listening session concluded, Kevin asked for my impression and I answered honestly and fairly.  Ultimately, while I came away impressed with his preamp, I told the room that with the presentation of each being so good, I would have a hard time justifying paying $27,000 for this preamp.  
  
 So what did Kevin think?  Again, I was prepared for him and his staff to tell me just how much better things sounded with the preamp in the chain but to their credit, everyone in the room expressed only amazement with the DAVE.  Kevin said he had never heard a DAC sound so good and while he felt that he preferred the presentation with his preamp in the chain, it was so close that he agreed that this was the very first time where he could live with _not _having his preamp in the chain.  What I didn't mention to him was that DAVE was not set up to sound its best.  Because the VAC amps sound best balanced, VAC only brought balanced cables and so DAVE was forced to use its XLR outputs which put out only 10% of the current that the RCA jacks put out.  As Kevin had made it clear that high signal current is what his amps need to sound their best, I am left to wonder if things might have decidedly swung in favor of the DAVE if the RCA outputs were used.  Regardless, in this case, even with balanced outputs, DAVE sounded just fine without a preamp.  Had the DAVE somehow been capable of driving these speakers directly (which is the setup that I have at home), I remain convinced that there would only be one outcome.


----------



## romaz

Deleted by author.


----------



## TheAttorney

Wow, romaz is definitely back!
  
 Did you use any HFC components with DAVE at these events? 
  
 Also, I was curious about this comment: "I told him that as a DAVE owner, 2017 will hold some wonderful things in store and quite likely, if there was gap between DAVE and his turntable now, that gap will likely disappear".


----------



## x RELIC x

romaz said:


> ...
> 
> I think we all think our systems are transparent until we hear something better.
> 
> ...




Agree 100%. You've well articulated transparency vs tonality, better than I have, so in the end it becomes a matter of what the listener is after - and careful listening tests to determine what they are actually listening to, transparency or tonality. Either pursuit is admirable, but one must try differentiate when sharing opinions (of course this statement is my opinion). Either way you can't go wrong when seeking musical enjoyment from the perspective of taste.


----------



## Crgreen

Tidal- there could be trouble ahead:

http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2016/09/13/tidal-full-financial-filing-ugly/

Presumably, this could put a severe dent in Meridian's MQA as a streaming service.


----------



## rkt31

great in depth comparison of dave. i agree in above post that for fully utilizing the potential of dave's high output , you need an amp which has much higher input sensitivity. but sadly there are not many, at least i could not find more than one. it may sound a bit repetitive from my side as i have posted earlier too, benchmark ahb2 power amp has the highest input sensitivity of about 9v in low gain mode. in this mode it provides only 3.5x or so gain . with hugo's 3v it comes out to be 10.5v and for my bookshelf speakers this output is more than sufficient for everything except only few movies. what happens that a very high and already ultra clean output of hugo and dave need only very little gain for decent level of output. frankly speaking i have not heard very expensive pre or power amps but this modest benchmark amp has done wonders with my setup with hugo. i wonder how does it pair with dave ? it will eliminate one extra pair of interconnect, one extra active stage of pre amp and will multiply the output of dave only as much you require. it is next best imho after  driving speakers directly from dave.


----------



## Sunya

romaz said:


> As far as voltage drive, while single-ended, DAVE puts out 6V rms and balanced, it puts out 12V rms which are pretty decent numbers.  There are some amps, however, that apparently crave more than this.  While the Spectral amps have input sensitivies of only 1.5V, I am told by one of their dealers that they prefer much more voltage to sound good and so the Spectral Reference preamp puts out up to 36V but at 36V, I can assure you there will be distortion consequences and their measurements reflect this.  Another area where the DAVE can fall short is with current output and this may be the most likely cause of problems.  DAVE, when single-ended, is limited to 0.5A of current output and while balanced, it is limited even more to 0.05A. Some amps require higher current than this to sound their best.  When these amps don't get enough signal current, they will sound thin, shallow and slow.  This is what I have been told by several amp manufacturers.


 
  
 An amp can't prefer more voltage than its input sensitivity value simply because if you give it more volts it will clip; a preamp putting out 36V is useful only to an amp with no voltage gain. The current requirements from the source output stage are related to the amplifier input impedance and its input sensitivity. The Spectral amps with their 1.5V input sensitivity (that's the input signal level required for full power output) and 10k Ohm input impedance suck only 0.00015A from the source's output stage at full power.
  
  


romaz said:


> So what did Kevin think?  Again, I was prepared for him and his staff to tell me just how much better things sounded with the preamp in the chain but to their credit, everyone in the room expressed only amazement with the DAVE.  Kevin said he had never heard a DAC sound so good and while he felt that he preferred the presentation with his preamp in the chain, it was so close that he agreed that this was the very first time where he could live with _not _having his preamp in the chain.  What I didn't mention to him was that DAVE was not set up to sound its best.  Because the VAC amps sound best balanced, VAC only brought balanced cables and so DAVE was forced to use its XLR outputs which put out only 10% of the current that the RCA jacks put out.  As Kevin had made it clear that high signal current is what his amps need to sound their best, I am left to wonder if things might have decidedly swung in favor of the DAVE if the RCA outputs were used.  Regardless, in this case, even with balanced outputs, DAVE sounded just fine without a preamp.  Had the DAVE somehow been capable of driving these speakers directly (which is the setup that I have at home), I remain convinced that there would only be one outcome.


 
  
 The VAC 200iQ balanced monos have a 31dB quoted voltage gain, which means they have an input sensitivity of 1.13V for 200W output; 1.13V into 100kOhm load (the 200iQ balanced mono input impedance) would require 0.000011A from the source's output stage. I find it funny for Kevin to suggest a high gain, 100kOhm input impedance amplifier requires high currents from the driving component (has to sell somehow those preamps which output 8-10V max).
  
 http://www.stereophile.com/content/valve-amplification-company-signature-se-preamplifier-measurements#F1L45rEjoyA5Txlq.97


----------



## rkt31

yes, more than input sensitivity will cause clipping. sadly there are very few amps which allow high input voltage and low gain. input sensitivity below 1.5v in the this modern age is like a crime in audiophile world. 31 db gain is hardly required with current high output dacs.


----------



## JaZZ

sunya said:


> An amp can't prefer more voltage than its input sensitivity value simply because if you give it more volts it will clip; a preamp putting out 36V is useful only to an amp with no voltage gain. The current requirements from the source output stage are related to the amplifier input impedance and its input sensitivity. The Spectral amps with their 1.5V input sensitivity (that's the input signal level required for full power output) and 10k Ohm input impedance suck only 0.00015A from the source's output stage at full power.
> 
> The VAC 200iQ balanced monos have a 31dB quoted voltage gain, which means they have an input sensitivity of 1.13V for 200W output; 1.13V into 100kOhm load (the 200iQ balanced mono input impedance) would require 0.000011A from the source's output stage. I find it funny for Kevin to suggest a high gain, 100kOhm input impedance amplifier requires *high currents* from the driving component (has to sell somehow those preamps which output 8-10V max).


 
  
 Good points, except for the «high currents» which should mean «high voltages».


----------



## Sunya

jazz said:


> Good points, except for the «high currents» which should mean «high voltages».


 
  


romaz said:


> As Kevin had made it clear that high signal current is what his amps need to sound their best


----------



## JaZZ

sunya said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Good points, except for the «high currents» which should mean «high voltages».
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, in hindsight I realize that you just quoted – sorry for my superficial reading. In any event I don't get the concept of high currents necessary for good sound (particularly with high-impedance inputs) – so we seem to agree here as well.


----------



## paul79

Interesting contrasting findings Roy! I'll close with this, and this is where I end... No point in arguing my findings vs. another, or if my system has a problem limiting outcome for this or that. I have had many many amplifiers/preamps/DAC's/spekers run through here, and none of them have ever came close to my current gear with regards to transparency and focus.
  
 Romantic-- To me, this means the way it makes me feel. I never intended for this statement to come across as lacking transparency, or having euphonics, just how it makes me feel when listening. I feel as if the Twelve seduces me more and my desires for playback, purely on an emotional level.
  
 Intimate-- This to me means closer, and in relation to sound, a more tangible recreation, closer to real, just closer in the most basic sense. More sound of instrument, more holographic, better focus, etc... Intimacy's #1 definition is a closer connection by meaning, basically. That is what I mean. Not euphonic or colored.
 So my argument is that I mean the opposite of lacking transparency. Wrong as these words may be. I am not a professional reviewer, so there may be more technical words to describe what I hear.
  
 Peaky? The Twelve, as well as the DAVE, are the absolute antithesis of this.... So I don't get this with my system at all. Harsh is never a descriptor I would use to describe either of these DAC's, and have had many that absolutely were. Glad to hear the DAVE fixed the brightness problem, but this could have been the digital source/server/network or something causing issue with the Totaldac, and DAVE's superior USB input could have been the fix also. I admit, that it took an order of optimization in the network setup for me to get the best from the Totaldac Server, but I succeeded with my practices here.
  
 Bass? The Monobloc was the equal to the DAVE in weight, slam, and quantity. Very similar to me in this regard, with maybe a slight nod to the DAVE in bass focus. I did admit that the Twelve lacks slam, but it in no way lacks in bass quantity or bass focus, and I actually hear more of the instrument/strings with the Twelve. Slam is the only trade-off using the Twelve, but its advantages to me, are quite clear with regards to transparency here in my system, far outweighing the sacrifice in slam.
  
 Tube preamp: I will just say that in my system, I like it better with, and that is verified can happen with your post about the VAC. It is not other worldly better with the preamp, and I concur, I just like the presentation a bit better with my preamp in the loop. More dimension, weight, and body, with no real lack in transparency to me in the overall translation with my system, broken or not.
  
 Depth: Well, I get MUCH more depth with the Twelve if it is in the recording. Not all recordings have depth, and I can hear differences in perspective more easily than I can with the DAVE. So I will just disagree with you on this part. Maybe my system is broken, but I don't mind. Sounds good to me, and I have both, soundstage accuracy and artists in my room.
  
 With the Twelve, I have an image in front of me, round, full, holographic, and tangible, the equal of my vinyl rig in this regard. I don't get this from the DAVE. Why? Is this not a sonic goal, even with all my supposed transparency robbing evils? Maybe I have been wanting the wrong thing all these years? Be that as it may, it is what I like, and what I want my system to do.
  
 Any measurements of the Voxativ speakers out there other than what is listed on their website? I have been down this road also, albeit never with Voxativ. I will also admit that a no crossover single driver speaker is very transparent sounding. BUT! A single driver has problems too that can not be avoided as far as I know. They are never truly linear IME, so maybe the problem is the speakers? I very seriously have my doubts to the claim that the DAC is peaky... That and a vinyl setup can be tailored and tweaked to no end, so maybe again, the problem is not the Totaldac Voxativ has a problem with.
  
 Edit: http://www.voxativ.com/fileadmin/templates/docs/audio_magazin_032014_single-ended_triode.pdf
  
 Another thing that don't quite jive with me is, why sever ties with Totaldac 2 months before finding a replacement, and yet even, bring a Totaldac to the show? I think there is more to this story than Voxativ not being able to find the "perfect DAC", but that is just me..... He "supposedly" didn't find one until you brought the DAVE to show, even wanting to.. These guys have been together for years, so something is up... This IMO is wrong from a professional standpoint, not only from Voxativ....... They have both made each other allot of money, and seemingly, this has little meaning to Voxativ for what reason? Because Voxativ couldn't find a DAC to suit his needs? Adding tubes to a DAC for what reason, because the Twelve is just in no way peaky or harsh. My speakers have a ruthlessly revealing reputation, and that they absolutely are, and I hear no problems with shout, brightness, etc... I have no doubt the DAVE could be better than the Six, but I still don't think it is the landslide difference as is portrayed here. IMHO, YMMV, Etc.
  
 http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?21633-Chord-DAVE-Aune-S16-etc-more-comparative-listening-(rambling-amp-tedious)


----------



## esimms86

theattorney said:


> Wow, romaz is definitely back!
> 
> Did you use any HFC components with DAVE at these events?
> 
> Also, I was curious about this comment: "I told him that as a DAVE owner, 2017 will hold some wonderful things in store and quite likely, if there was gap between DAVE and his turntable now, that gap will likely disappear".




Yes, Roy is back and firing on all cylinders! The photo depicting the Audio Precision measurement process clearly shows an HFC Pro power cable(their top of the line).

BTW, I believe Roy was referring to the Chord Digital Amp coming in 2017.


----------



## Crgreen

Can someone's explain how the digital amp will work. Is it a d/a converter with a higher output?


----------



## Mojo ideas

crgreen said:


> Can someone's explain how the digital amp will work. Is it a d/a converter with a higher output?


 no I can definitely confirm it's not that! 
The topology is unusual and has never been used before it's Rob's totally new brilliantly clever and thoroughly interesting idea. We hope to be ironing out the wrinkles and packaging the design over the coming year.


----------



## Crgreen

Thanks. That of course means that outside Chord, no one's in a position to express any view on the merits of the product until it's released.


----------



## Hubert H

mojo ideas said:


> no I can definitely confirm it's not that!
> The topology is unusual and has never been used before it's Rob's totally new brilliantly clever and thoroughly interesting idea. We hope to be ironing out the wrinkles and packaging the design over the coming year.


 
 That's interesting news John, can I ask if the ironed out package would be a valid replacement for my SPM1400's?
  
 It's brilliant if things can get better than the Dave direct to the monos.
  
 H.


----------



## esimms86

I'm curious to read comparisons between the HE1000 V1, HE1000 V2 and the Focal Utopia, all paired with Dave. I'd also be interested to know whether Roy (or anyone else lucky enough to have the HFC module) sees any significant differences when these headphones are connected to Dave with the upcoming HFC device inserted in between.
  
 For my money, I'm waiting for the details of the HE1000 upgrade to be released(said to be expected for some time this month).
  
 Thus far, the HE1000/Focal Utopia comparisons I've read don't give me enough impetus with part with another 4000 USD. This is admittedly all stated having never listened to the Utopias. As much as I love reading the various CanJam impressions, I have to say that I'm skeptical of any reports from people listening certainly less than critically to a pair of open back headphones at a noisy trade show under a tent!
  
 Esau


----------



## Hifi59

esimms86 said:


> I'm curious to read comparisons between the HE1000 V1, HE1000 V2 and the Focal Utopia, all paired with Dave. I'd also be interested to know whether Roy (or anyone else lucky enough to have the HFC module) sees any significant differences when these headphones are connected to Dave with the upcoming HFC device inserted in between.
> 
> For my money, I'm waiting for the details of the HE1000 upgrade to be released(said to be expected for some time this month).
> 
> ...




V2 upgrade program now up and running . $650.00. Hifiman.com


----------



## esimms86

Excellent news. Thanks!


----------



## Sonic77

Good to have you back! Prayers to your family.


----------



## romaz

Deleted by author.


----------



## ubs28

theattorney said:


> Wow, romaz is definitely back!
> 
> Did you use any HFC components with DAVE at these events?
> 
> Also, I was curious about this comment: "I told him that as a DAVE owner, 2017 will hold some wonderful things in store and quite likely, if there was gap between DAVE and his turntable now, that gap will likely disappear".




What will 2017 bring for Dave owners? I must have missed something.


----------



## x RELIC x

ubs28 said:


> What will 2017 bring for Dave owners? I must have missed something.




Near the top of the page... digital amp.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/5055#post_12932194


----------



## Toolman

Guys...try not to quote half a page of text with a one liner reply. Save us some bandwidth please?


----------



## Mojo ideas

hubert h said:


> That's interesting news John, can I ask if the ironed out package would be a valid replacement for my SPM1400's?
> 
> It's brilliant if things can get better than the Dave direct to the monos.
> 
> H.


 I think it will be a few years before the digital technology that Rob is developing will be generating the extreme power levels that our SPM 1400 mono blocks put out. We will stage this technology over several generations increasing power levels to prove it.


----------



## miko64

John

Being nosy, what house number of power do you think off for 1st Generation? Something alongside first watt's level of power (i.e. Around 25w @ 8 Ohm) or more?

kind regards 

Michael


----------



## Hubert H

mojo ideas said:


> I think it will be a few years before the digital technology that Rob is developing will be generating the extreme power levels that our SPM 1400 mono blocks put out. We will stage this technology over several generations increasing power levels to prove it.


 
  
 Thanks John, it gives me a bit of time to save up then.


----------



## supabayes

Finally, my Dave is here. It makes me fall in love with every of my headphones all over again. Some photo to share. I really dig the black Dave. Looks great with the Utopia and HD800S in photo.


----------



## lovethatsound

supabayes said:


> Finally, my Dave is here. It makes me fall in love with every of my headphones all over again. Some photo to share. I really dig the black Dave. Looks great with the Utopia and HD800S in photo.


Congratulations on getting your Dave,and a what a lovely selection of top class headphones,but which one is your favorite?and why


----------



## supabayes

lovethatsound said:


> Congratulations on getting your Dave,and a what a lovely selection of top class headphones,but which one is your favorite?and why




Favourite is still the HD800S especially when driven by La Figaro 339 tubes amp. Next is Nighthawk, easy listening all day long without fatigue and nearest to speaker listening in its tuning. 

The Utopia is not fully burn in yet but it will probably overtake the 800S and Nighthawk in due time.


----------



## pedalhead

I see that Vincent's response this morning was quickly removed by a moderator. Seems to me that he should be allowed an opportunity to state his position if others are telling tales that involve him. Or is that a privilege only bestowed upon HF sponsors?


----------



## Hubert H

These posts will disappear too if recent activity is anything to go by.
  
 H.


----------



## a1uc

pedalhead said:


> I see that Vincent's response this morning was quickly removed by a moderator. Seems to me that he should be allowed an opportunity to state his position if others are telling tales that involve him. Or is that a privilege only bestowed upon HF sponsors?


 yeah they sure shut that one down quick talk about favoring


----------



## smial1966

Head-Fi should allow robust discussion and impassioned debate unless libellous submissions are uploaded, in which case the moderators have every right to delete posts. However, why remove a post by a guy (Vincent) defending his DACs against unsubstantiated claims of sonic inferiority?!? Surely free speech is an inherent ethos of Head-Fi and we should all be permitted to voice our respective opinions, no?!? 




pedalhead said:


> I see that Vincent's response this morning was quickly removed by a moderator. Seems to me that he should be allowed an opportunity to state his position if others are telling tales that involve him. Or is that a privilege only bestowed upon HF sponsors?


----------



## a1uc

pedalhead said:


> I see that Vincent's response this morning was quickly removed by a moderator. Seems to me that he should be allowed an opportunity to state his position if others are telling tales that involve him. Or is that a privilege only bestowed upon HF sponsors?



I completely agree..... Comments and even lies were posted here regarding Vincent from a disgruntled ex-partner, and Totaldac is not allowed to stand ground? I found nothing wrong with Vincent's reply. Nice to know what is really going on in this "conflict of interest"


----------



## bigfatpaulie

If only there was someone who had a copy of his post.....................


----------



## jude

pedalhead said:


> I see that Vincent's response this morning was quickly removed by a moderator. Seems to me that he should be allowed an opportunity to state his position if others are telling tales that involve him. Or is that a privilege only bestowed upon HF sponsors?


  





smial1966 said:


> Head-Fi should allow robust discussion and impassioned debate unless libellous submissions are uploaded, in which case the moderators have every right to delete posts, but why remove a post by a guy (Vincent) defending his DAC against unsubstantiated claims of sonic inferiority?!? Surely free speech is an inherent ethos of Head-Fi and we should all be permitted to voice our respective opinions, no?!?


 
  
 Vincent _can_ respond. And other posts he mentioned to us via PM are being reviewed, and may also be deleted.
  
 In our rules/terms of use, we specifically do NOT allow members of the trade to go after one another (their companies, products, services, etc.). A sponsor can't criticize a non-sponsor or sponsor. A non-sponsor can't criticize a non-sponsor or sponsor. We do not want to see any of that kind of activity here, whether directly, or by proxy (through others).
  
 What we saw first was what was first reported, and that was Vincent's post, and it was deleted, and Vincent notified. He has then pointed us to other posts that will also be reviewed and possibly deleted.


----------



## jude

a1uc said:


> I completely agree..... Comments and even lies were posted here regarding Vincent from a disgruntled ex-partner, and Totaldac is not allowed to stand ground? I found nothing wrong with Vincent's reply. Nice to know what is really going on in this "conflict of interest"


  

 Also, in the context of what's been going on today, I have no idea who has done business with whom now or in the past. I'm not the least bit familiar with who Voxative is, what their products are, and/or any relationship they did/didn't have with totaldac or anyone else.
  
 Again, we're trying to get this sorted, but we're not going to allow members of the trade to go after one another on our forums. Never have, never will.


----------



## Crgreen

Although Roy's post was fair-minded and honourable, doesn't it contain reports of one manufacturer's views about another's products, so that a response is inevitable?

The moral of the story might be be steer clear of such matters and inadvertently get drawn into a hi-fi divorce. A messy business.


----------



## totaldac

This is Vincent, owner of Totaldac.
  
 I have deleted my answer because the corresponding thread has been deleted.
  
 Thank you.


----------



## smial1966

Thanks for the clarification Jude. 

Whilst I respect the Head-Fi terms of use and generally abide by them, I do think that if a boutique audio manufacturer has been indirectly disparaged by a thread poster, then the slighted party should be allowed redress by posting at least one message to counteract the detrimental sentiments espoused. As this surely equates to parity of expression and an equilibrium of sorts. 




jude said:


> Vincent _can_ respond. And other posts he mentioned to us via PM are being reviewed, and may also be deleted.
> 
> In our rules/terms of use, we specifically do NOT allow members of the trade to go after one another (their companies, products, services, etc.). A sponsor can't criticize a non-sponsor or sponsor. A non-sponsor can't criticize a non-sponsor or sponsor. We do not want to see any of that kind of activity here, whether directly, or by proxy (through others).
> 
> What we saw first was what was first reported, and that was Vincent's post, and it was deleted, and Vincent notified. He has then pointed us to other posts that will also be reviewed and possibly deleted.


----------



## jude

smial1966 said:


> Thanks for the clarification Jude.
> 
> Whilst I respect the Head-Fi terms of use and generally abide by them, I do think that if a boutique audio manufacturer has been indirectly disparaged by a thread poster, then the slighted party should be allowed redress by posting at least one message to counteract the detrimental sentiments espoused. As this surely equates to parity of expression and an equilibrium of sorts.


 
  
 Once again, we're looking into all posts that were made that may have led up to this. This only came to our attention today, and we're dealing with it as best we can in between shooting two videos today.
  


crgreen said:


> Although Roy's post was fair-minded and honourable, doesn't it contain reports of one manufacturer's views about another's products, so that a response is inevitable?
> 
> The moral of the story might be be steer clear of such matters and inadvertently get drawn into a hi-fi divorce. A messy business.


 
  
 Again, even now, I have no idea (in the context of this discussion) who all the member of the trade parties are, how they were/weren't related, etc. We're trying to sort through this now.


----------



## Jawed

supabayes said:


> Next is Nighthawk, easy listening all day long without fatigue and nearest to speaker listening in its tuning.



Quite a few people have said this. I have no idea what that means.

Some people say that Focal Utopia has some of that quality, too.

What does it mean when people say headphones have a tuning that's like speakers?


----------



## EVOLVIST

I like the DAVE. It likes me. Me, DAVE and my cans make three.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jawed said:


> Quite a few people have said this. I have no idea what that means.
> 
> Some people say that Focal Utopia has some of that quality, too.
> 
> What does it mean when people say headphones have a tuning that's like speakers?




I don't know, but if the FUs sound anything like the NightHawks with the DAVE, you can count me out (sorry Rob). Heh.


----------



## longbowbbs

evolvist said:


> jawed said:
> 
> 
> > Quite a few people have said this. I have no idea what that means.
> ...


 
 The Utopia's are nothing like the NightHawks. I had quite a bit of time with both last weekend at RMAF.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Vincent
You comment above ".....Obviously he sold it as second hand so he lost money.................So he decided that Totaldac was a burglar..........This is why is attacks Totaldac so often, but it was his mistake."

You appear to have 'assumed' Romaz' motive yet you stated it as if it were fact. You cannot know what he was thinking or his motives and it does you both a disservice to cast doubts on a persons motives in this way. If Romaz sold your DAC shortly after purchase then it would seem to me the more important point is he was not satisfied with the product as opposed to being unsatisfied with your subsequent service (that you allude to.)

Romaz is well respected on these boards for his evenhanded, well considered and informative comments. That reputation has been established over a decent period of time and has required a considerable commitment on his behalf for which many readers of the threads have stated their appreciation. Fwiw I think he presented his post in a manner which came across as genuine. It did not sound to me like he was being unreasonable or vindictive.

I am sure it must be frustrating to work so hard and believe in your product only to read about someone saying they preferred a competitor product but I do not think this warrants what seems to me to be a slight on his character.


----------



## adyc

totaldac said:


> This is Vincent, owner Totaldac.
> 
> I have removed a sentence as a moderated demanded, about Chord. Here is the moderated message.
> 
> ...




What evidence do you have that Romaz goes after your company because he sold your DAC in a short time? Why do you feel that he has the obligation to tell you that he sold your DAC in second hand market? Is this term included in your sales purchase agreement? Don't you not like your customers selling your DAC in second hand market? I think second hand market will increase exposure of anyone products. There are thousands of posts in Audiogon everyday. Selling and buying second hand gears are normal audiophiles activities. And I can assure you that almost 99.99% posts that sellers sold at a price less than they bought. So all sellers bear grudges against the manufacturers? Your logic seems very flawed.

I have been following Romaz's posts with keen interest. Never that I get the impression that he goes after your company.


----------



## longbowbbs

Dac's are a very personal audio item. The major technologies (Sabre, R2R, FPGA etc) all have high end players that offer a path toward recreating the master tape from the 16/44 digitized version. The last year has seen major leaps in success toward this elusive goal. 
  
 Having spent time with many of the top DAC's I am pleased at how close to the source we are getting regardless of the particular approach being taken. Still, I am also seeing many friends come to different individual conclusions as to what constitutes a more analog sound.
  
 My time with the DAVE and my conversations with John Franks has enabled me to appreciate their approach. They are one of a few that I have experienced who have basically achieved "Analog" in their sound.
  
 I have not had a chance to hear the TotalDac though my friend Michael Lavorgna is a huge fan.  I personally am using the PS Audio DirectStream DSD DAC. For me (YMMV) a terrific analog sound and about half the price of the DAVE. That worked for me.
  
 Ultimately, what occurred to me while reviewing the PS Audio DSJ recently is once you have placed a couple of DAC's in the near or at analog level the differences in sonics are akin to changing phono cartridges. There are clearly sonic signatures. It is a case of what nuance are you pulled toward more than which is "Better". 
  
 Just my 2 cents....


----------



## Rob Watts

pedalhead said:


> I see that Vincent's response this morning was quickly removed by a moderator. Seems to me that he should be allowed an opportunity to state his position if others are telling tales that involve him. Or is that a privilege only bestowed upon HF sponsors?


 
 No it's not a privilege for HF sponsors - I have had posts deleted. And at the time it drove me nuts, as they were factual responses that could be verified by measurements. But because I was specifically talking about another manufacturer, they got deleted.
  
 Now what's the harm in that? I always post on Chord or my thread, I only ever use Rob Watts, sponsor Chord, everybody knows who I am, what is wrong with verifiable factual replies?
  
 The problem is life is short, and this hobby is supposed to be about being able to enjoy music more. And when you read a posting fight between people of different views - particularly when money or business is involved - it gets nasty, and as a reader I don't want to see that. There is a fine line between genuine posters having a healthy disagreement (good it exposes bias and taste) and things degenerating into something unpleasant, which I do not want to see.
  
 So on balance I would prefer a heavy handed moderator than to see things descend into vulgarity. And that's coming from me who strongly believes in honest free speech. But it is nonetheless galling that I can't say some things, but somebody else can.
  
 Rob


----------



## romaz

totaldac said:


> This is Vincent, owner Totaldac.
> I have removed a sentence as a moderated demanded, about Chord. Here is the moderated message.


 
  
 Hi Vincent,
  
 I'm sorry that you believe that there has been some conspiracy here or that somehow, this is personal.  The fact of the matter is that another person came onto the DAVE thread to tell the thread how much more he preferred his TotalDac to the DAVE.  There's nothing wrong with this but then he should be prepared to have his statements scrutinized and I believe that is all that has happened.  Paul is a respected audiophile and I consider him a friend.  He is also a wonderful TotalDac advocate and I know there are many.  Even though I moved on from your DAC, in my own way, I am still a TotalDac advocate.  Those that know me know that I enjoy a healthy and gentlemanly debate but at no time is it ever personal for me.  
  
 Now, as you have made some false assumptions about me, I feel compelled to reply:
  


totaldac said:


> Romaz bought a Totaldac DAC, he had 14days to test it, he liked it, he decided to keep it. Then a few weeks ago he decided to sell it without telling a single word about it to me.
> No message about that. Obviously he sold it as second hand so he lost money.
> His way to communicate is not understandable, he could have talked about it with me and we could have changed the type of DAC of I could have taken the DAC back and refund the money.
> I allow refund for 14 days, it doesn't mean that I will never accept a few weeks later. I am not like he imagined.


 
  
 It's obvious you don't remember me and so let me remind you.  I owned your d1-monobloc for nearly 6 months last year (and I loved them).  After 6 months of owning them, I would never consider coming to you asking for a refund nor do I believe I owed it to you to tell you I was switching to another DAC.  Last year, we exchanged more than 70 e-mails.  All were friendly and I believe, this is our last e-mail.  Aside from deleting our e-mail addresses, these have not been edited:
  
*From:* Vincent Brient 
*To:* RLF 
*Sent:* Saturday, November 14, 2015 1:17 AM
*Subject:* Re: d1-dual vs d1-tube-mk2
  
Thank you. We live far from Paris, but indeed this is crazy.
Ok I will ship it.
  
*De :* RLF 
*À :* Vincent Brient 
*Envoyé le :* Samedi 14 novembre 2015 10h14
*Objet :* Re: d1-dual vs d1-tube-mk2
  
Yes, please, Vincent.  Thank you!
  
I'm sorry to hear what's happening in France.  This is a crazy world we now live in.  Hopefully you and your family are safe.
  
Best regards,
Roy
  
 You can decide for yourself if we have ever had personal differences.  I have only ever respected you and your work.  The fact that I now prefer another DAC doesn't diminish that.
  


totaldac said:


> So he decided that Totaldac was a burglar before he started any communication with Totaldac about his problem.
> This is why is attacks Totaldac so often, but it was his mistake.


 
  
 Here are a few of my TotalDac-related posts here on the Chord DAVE thread just in the past 2 months.  You can decide for yourself if your comment about me is fair:
  
"I enjoyed my time immensely with this DAC when I owned it"
  
"To this day, I consider the TotalDac to be an excellent DAC and I would never try to convince another person that it was otherwise."
  
"While the differences were never night and day, the cumulative differences were meaningful and worthwhile enough to me that I went ahead and bought the d1- monobloc.  I had found my end-game DAC and since no other high-end DAC including the more expensive d1-twelve or any of the MSB DACs could drive headphones directly, I considered the d1-monobloc the finest headphone DAC in the world, bar none.  By this time, I had heard both the Hugo and TT and I still preferred my TotalDac."
  
 I can go on but I think it's clear I have not been attacking you.  Just so you know, here are excerpts from a PM just 3 months ago between myself and another Head-Fier who wanted my opinion between the DAVE and the TotalDac.  For obvious reasons, I have not included the Head-Fier's identity but if he wishes to reveal himself, I am ok with that:
  
  
Jul 21, 2016 at 3:38 pm

Did you have the Totaldac?  i am looking to buy either a d1 dual plus reclocker or the Dave.  Can you tell me the differences in sound?

  

[color=#0000FF][img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/3/32/38x38px-ZC-328dedc9_bluehawaiiavatar.jpeg[/img][/color]
[color=#0000FF]romaz[/color]
Jul 21, 2016 at 3:50 pm

You can't go wrong with a TotalDac.  It is a wonderful speaker DAC but can also drive headphones directly.  It excels in presenting a very dynamic yet relaxed and effortless sound.  Tone and timbre is also excellent.  It is my favorite R2R DAC.
  
As good as the TotalDac is, I sold my TotalDac d1-monobloc because I found the DAVE to be better in every way.  It is the most transparent DAC I have ever heard.  


  
 While I have expressed my honest preference here, you can see I did not disparage you and I have other PMs like this that basically say the same thing.
  


totaldac said:


> Now about Voxativ. I still believe that they talked badly about Totaldac as private discussion, and again romaz repeat everything negative about Totaldac on forum, not fair at all, and again a deliberate attack against totaldac.


 
  
 You can choose to believe me or not but there was no conspiracy here.  I just met Holger for the very first time 7 days ago and I have not spoken with him since Sunday.  At no time did Holger say anything negative about you.  Obviously, based on my above responses, I hope you don't now think I would either.  Regarding the Voxativ post, in hindsight, I regret posting it as I see it has upset you and I would never intentionally do something like that based on the good relationship we had.  I thought it was an interesting and maybe even a fortuitous coincidence that these events happened shortly after Paul posted his comments about his TotalDac and the DAVE on a Chord thread.  When I posted it, I looked at it purely as a counterpoint to the opinion offered by another person.  TotalDac has such an established reputation that I don't think the opinion of one person can really hurt you.  At least, that's how I saw it when I posted it and so there was no malicious intent.
   
 Quote:


totaldac said:


> Holger should ask Romaz to remove this private (hope so but the photo doesn't confirm) comments.


 
  
 If Holger asks me to remove my post, I will do it.  If you ask me nicely, I will do it.
  
 Vincent, even after all of this, I don't look at you or TotalDac in any negative light.  You make wonderful DACs and you have a well-deserved reputation.
  
 Best wishes,
 Roy


----------



## ubs28

Edit: Never mind.


----------



## ubs28

supabayes said:


> Finally, my Dave is here. It makes me fall in love with every of my headphones all over again. Some photo to share. I really dig the black Dave. Looks great with the Utopia and HD800S in photo.


 

 Looks very good. I wonder if I didn't make the wrong choice going for the silver edition.


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## rkt31

the matter is much more sensitive when there is talk of two expensive gear specially when one is many a times more expensive than the other. there are so many stakes. that's why you rarely get direct group comparison or Hi Fi shoot outs of extremely expensive gear in hi Fi magazines. only few passionate audiophile dare to talk on forums . many who can't afford these gear at least get some glimpse of such products. imho there is nothing wrong if someone Privately express his opinion in a balanced manner, because such forums are for that purpose only. no poster claim his opinion as universal verdict . here also the opinion of romaz to me feels totally personal. for many the other dac may be better as also pointed out by one poster.


----------



## totaldac

Romaz, you sold it after 2 month, this is what you claim in your advirt on Audiogon, not 6month as you are saying now.
 https://www.audiogon.com/listings/da-converters-totaldac-d1-monobloc-and-d1-server-possibly-the-last-dac-you-ll-ever-wish-to-own-2015-12-06-digital-95945-grass-valley-ca
 "This is a mint condition TotalDac d1-monobloc DAC and d1-Server, a 3-box system.  Rarely is this DAC + Server offered on the used market.  It was purchased new just 2 months ago and has the DSD option.  It is the finest digital front end I have every experienced and my unfortunate circumstances are your gain.  "


----------



## Mojo ideas

miko64 said:


> John
> 
> Being nosy, what house number of power do you think off for 1st Generation? Something alongside first watt's level of power (i.e. Around 25w @ 8 Ohm) or more?
> 
> ...


 Something in that region


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## miko64

john, thanks a lot
 Michael


----------



## Light - Man

Sometimes on Head-Fi things can get a bit like this - which may require one of the Mods to give a group hug to calm things down.


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## paul79

To heck with it... I can't avoid this thread it seems      I have a second opinion from a friend that knows my system very well also, so I have to share this for the people that don't mind the competition.
  
 I thought this was a High End Audio Head Fi Thread? I didn't realize it was a Chord only thread. There are only a couple of you guys who don't like what I did, and that is fine with me. As for the rest, who wouldn't want to know how the DAVE compared to the Twelve? The DAVE was compared to the Monobloc, so I compared the DAVE to the Twelve, and posted it right here on the DAVE thread.
  
 I posted the review because I wanted to, nobody told me to. I made it honest, and with regards to my system, my findings, IMO. I didn't treat one DAC differently than another, just swapped out the DAC's only, and listened. Who wouldn't want to replace a 30K DAC with one less than half the price? Boy I sure would, but unfortunately, I cannot. One DAC is very clearly more transparent than the other in my system.  One DAC also has an overall lower perceived noise floor in my system. Resistors piled to the ceiling or not.
  
 I made very clear the value the DAVE presents. The fact that one can use any source, and not have any reclockers, USB tweaks, etc. and get world class sound, well that is really something!!
  
 However, the Twelve, with the best possible source components in front of it, is better. It just is, so maybe the USB input of the DAVE is the one part of the DAC that is not actually transparent?? I do know the digital sources sound extremely similar using the USB input of the DAVE, and in effect masking transparency? I don't know, but it could be....
  
 My friend came by Thursday, because I wanted a second set of ears and a second opinion. Both the Twelve and the DAVE were set up to quickly A/B the two of them running through my preamp. Only a USB Cable swap was required from the Server to either DAC, and a selector switch on the preamp, so maybe 10 seconds between comparisons.
  
 Using the preamp, we listened to the Twelve for a couple tracks that he always likes to listen to here. "Made In The Shade" Lynyrd Skynyrd, and "Tobacco Road" Eric Burdon and WAR. Made in the Shade has a tuba in it that is very hard to recreate without sounding mechanical. Tobacco Road is so focused and clear, displaying holographic images supremely well. These are both PCM, with Skynyrd being 176/24, and Burdon and WAR being 16/44 CD rip.
  
 After listening to the Twelve with these tracks, I asked what he thought. He said "sounds like it always does, amazing".
  
 We then proceeded to A/B. I played Made in the Shade through the DAVE, then again through the Twelve, then again through the DAVE. Then he looked at me and said, "The Totaldac is more magic". I asked what he meant by that and he said "it sounds freakishly real, and the Tuba don't sound right with the DAVE". I asked what was wrong with it? He said "I can't tell where it is, and if I didn't know what it was, I don't think I could tell you it was a tuba".
  
 Then we tried Tobacco Road with the Twelve, then the DAVE, then back to the Twelve. I asked what he thought. He said "Totaldac, I can see Eric, like even touch the guy he sounds so real. With the DAVE, he is gone. Not gone, but not here". His words, I took notes.
  
 After this, I hooked the DAVE directly to the amps. I played the same tracks, and he asked "what did you do there?" Hooked the DAC to the amps directly. He said "well, it sounds pretty good actually, but I like it better the other way". I then put the preamp back in the loop. We listened to allot of music, and some vinyl. Had a great time talking about his system of which I am helping him build currently. Before he left, I asked him what he thought of the DAVE, and he said "oh it is very good, and better than I thought knowing your other DAC". I also asked him what he thought about the Vinyl in comparison to the DAC's. He said "The Totaldac sounds allot like your turntable, I'll say that". He is a therapist, so he then proceeded to tell me my problems and how stupid my system was, all while he was falling into his Porsche 911 with all the trimmings....   
  
 The Twelve is different, and in fact, revelatory with regards to transparency in a DAC . It is far better than any other Totaldac, and better than anything else I have tried. It is the only DAC that gets close to my vinyl. I can't say this about any other DAC, and yes, I mean on a resolute and transparent basis.


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## Sonic77

The Chord Dave Dac is the best Dac in the world!
 In my opinion, now see how this works, it's a forum with different opinions, yours are not anymore valid then mine.
 Have a nice day


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## paul79

sonic77 said:


> The Chord Dave Dac is the best Dac in the world!
> In my opinion, now see how this works, it's a forum with different opinions, yours are not anymore valid then mine.
> Have a nice day


 

 Which is exactly the point I am trying to make     However, since there is no way any DAC could be better than the DAVE, it must be my euphonic system that makes it sound worse, and the Totaldac sound better.


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## Sonic77

Yeah, but someone here sounds butt hurt, I'll let the people decide who.


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## paul79

sonic77 said:


> Yeah, but someone here sounds butt hurt, I'll let the people decide who.


 

 That's true. But who? That is the question.... I post a difference, and everyone tells me my system is broken because the DAVE didn't win me over. So ya, I suppose that would cause a defense, but my butt feels fine.


----------



## Sonic77

paul79 said:


> That's true. But who? That is the question.... I post a difference, and everyone tells me my system is broken because the DAVE didn't win. So ya, I suppose that would cause a defense, but my butt feels fine.


 

 Well then, maybe it's time to move on rather then causing more dust up, it's your choice of course. Also you knew you were going to get differing opinions coming here, you do know where you are right? I mean what dac is being discussed here, right? In other words don't be surprised by the responses your getting.


----------



## paul79

Yep, differing opinions but nobody with a Twelve. I have both a DAVE and a Twelve, am I not qualified to post differences? It is not about getting someone to agree with me. What I have a problem with has nothing to do with that.


----------



## Sonic77

paul79 said:


> Yep, differing opinions but nobody with a Twelve.


 

 Keep arguing with yourself, I'm going to enjoy my day.


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## paul79

Just helping you bury my post.


----------



## longbowbbs

So we have now determined that people hear things differently......
  
 The primary question is when all of the friends go home are you loving your systems? If so, then all is good.


----------



## romaz

totaldac said:


> Romaz, you sold it after 2 month, this is what you claim in your advirt on Audiogon, not 6month as you are saying now.
> https://www.audiogon.com/listings/da-converters-totaldac-d1-monobloc-and-d1-server-possibly-the-last-dac-you-ll-ever-wish-to-own-2015-12-06-digital-95945-grass-valley-ca
> "This is a mint condition TotalDac d1-monobloc DAC and d1-Server, a 3-box system.  Rarely is this DAC + Server offered on the used market.  It was purchased new just 2 months ago and has the DSD option.  It is the finest digital front end I have every experienced and my unfortunate circumstances are your gain.  "


 
 Vincent,
  
 You are correct.  When I looked at our string of communications, it began on July 3.  I sold my TotalDac on December 13.  That is where my "nearly 6 months" estimate came from.  After reviewing our e-mail thread, I see now that I did not take delivery of your DAC until October.  Even then, you were generous enough to give me a whole month (and not just 14 days) to evaluate your DAC and so after the length of time that I had it, it never crossed my mind that I would try and ask for a refund.  I am not trying to intentionally be deceptive here.  That is not who I am.  Once again, my fine opinion of TotalDac has not changed.


----------



## romaz

paul79 said:


> I didn't realize it was a Chord only thread.


 
 Hi Paul, it isn't a Chord only thread and your post was a fair and balanced one.  If you had posted it on the TotalDac thread, you would have been preaching to the choir and no one would have questioned you.  When you posted it on the DAVE thread, I wasn't being ingenuous when I said there's nothing wrong with this but then you must be prepared to have your responses scrutinized and so that's what happened.  I never meant to imply your system was broken and so if that is what you inferred, I apologize.  There are few that I would trust to put together a system for me.  You are one of those people and so after all of this blows down, I hope there is still a friendship there.  I have no enemies in audio and I bear no one person or one company any ill will.  As Rob Watts has said, life is too short.
  
 As we all know, Head-Fi is a community of enthusiasts which means we are all passionate about audio as well as our audio gear.  Obviously, this means there's a lot of bias going on and people are going to express those biases in any number of ways.  In the same way that I expressed my love for my TotalDac on the TotalDac thread when I had this DAC, I did not feel it proper to then express my love for the DAVE on the same TotalDac thread once I switched.  Not to say that what you did was wrong but the response to what you did should not come as a surprise.  In the end, if you are secure in the strengths of your system as I am in mine, then nothing that anyone says should matter. Your advocacy for your twelve is commendable and I respect it.  At the same time, as I do my own comparisons, the more convinced I am that the DAVE is the best DAC in the world and so hopefully, you won't be offended if we agree to disagree.  I think we should be happy for each other that we are this pleased with our systems.


----------



## ecwl

I have to say even though I'll probably disagree with Paul in the future, I do want to hear TotalDAC Twelve. The R2R DACs I've listened to I just didn't like as much as my Chord DACs. But then I have never listened to anything as high end as TotalDAC twelve. I used not to be able to clearly articulate the why but after Rob Watts posted his design philosophy, I think I can say I'm hearing what he's hearing as problems in other DAC designs. But maybe TotalDAC Twelve has a great way of pushing the R2R limits further.

So I am grateful that Paul offers his opinion on TotalDAC Twelve as I'll try harder to find it to listen to it. But I think many of us have said in this forum, different people like different sound and different DACs go into different systems so system synergy may also play a role. As long as one is happiest with what one owns, that's what matters most


----------



## paul79

Totally romaz! No worries at all. Passion for my system and my experience is why I posted my findings, and defended my findings. Nobody has heard my system here, and nobody else has heard the Twelve and the DAVE head to head. In my review, I really tried to highlight the strengths of both, and the weaknesses of both, in my system. All comparisons are done this way. I just got a bit upset when people told me I don't know what a transparent system sounds like, or how to find a bottleneck. I absolutely do. I have heard many systems, helped build many systems at different budgets, and have owned several different systems in different environments. However, after thinking it over, I agree, what else can I expect posting on the DAVE thread?  
  
 We have an audio club here in Tulsa that has some of the best sounding systems in the world. I get to hear them all, and even systems that are better than mine in some ways. These are very strictly vinyl guys though, and use something like an Oppo or Sony for their digital, while having vinyl rigs that cost more than my house. They wouldn't even think of owning a high end DAC, because they would rather put a $15K cartridge on their table, or a different phono preamp instead, so when I attend I feel a bit outcast with my preference to digital overall. I am however, very new to this club, and not even really a member, but I will make them believers in that digital is good too, eventually!!


----------



## Jawed

paul79, I think your original review was sufficiently well written that it provided a sense of a lot of absolute truths about the way your system plays music. I'm not surprised that someone else who listened to your system feels the same in many ways.

I personally don't subscribe to the "everyone hears differently" school of political correctness seen on hi-fi forums. Instead I believe that people weigh-up the different compromises they hear and decide whether they like what they hear. Usually their gut leads in this assessment. There then follows a degree of justification for gut feelings and a limited amount of introspection.

In my experience if you question someone very closely you will discover that they will end up describing the sound of a system in the same way as someone else who is also questioned closely. Listeners who don't have much experience expressing their feelings about systems will hit the ceiling of their perception and ability to express their perception sooner... When these people are asked to compare two systems their preferences will survive the questioning.

Personal preferences (in extreme: bass head, soundstaging-addict, PRAT-aholic) are the reasons people choose the stuff they own.

I really do think that what you've said about Twelve versus DAVE is very much "the truth" in your system. I expect most people would agree with what you've written after spending time with your system.

It appears to me that most people would be thoroughly smitten by your system, too.

I think the only question anyone can reasonably have is: does your system synergise with Twelve and hinder DAVE or is your system a representative depiction of the difference between Twelve and DAVE? 

If we take, at face value, your and your friend's criticism of DAVE as being much less transparent then there's only two aspects of DAVE that can be meaningfully questioned: the entire algorithm of DAVE (WTA over-sampling, noise-shaping, 104MHz 5-bit 20-element digital to analogue conversion); and the electrical qualities of the circuitry, the power supply, noise control, and the quality of current to voltage conversion. Some would say that the electrical qualities of the circuitry, the R2R voodoo, is the entire point of Twelve, so of course DAVE is worse...

I believe you both when you say DAVE is less transparent feeding directly into your power amp than via the pre-amp. If it were my system I'd be looking for a new power amp. It's kinda puzzling to me that you are absolutely certain that there is nothing wrong there. That's really the beginning and end of my contention with what you've posted.

---

Here on Head-fi there's a consensus that Hugo sounds better than Mojo. Tens of people at least, it seems, have compared these two DACs directly and concluded the same. But there is a small group that prefers Mojo. So, even with gear that's been heard by so many people round here there is not 100% agreement. 

So, sadly, with the ultra-fi gear there aren't that many comparisons, a consensus isn't going to arise easily. People who are interested in the pecking order of ultra-fi DACs just take whatever crumbs fall their way!

On the other side of the coin, I think it's fair to say that performance that once cost tens of thousands of dollars now costs a fraction of that. So normal people are now getting access to ultra-fi performance levels from yesteryear.

Now, has anyone compared DAVE or Twelve with dCS Vivaldi?


----------



## paul79

"I believe you both when you say DAVE is less transparent feeding directly into your power amp than via the pre-amp."

 All good, but here you mention that I think the DAC's are more transparent through the preamp. Not so. It is just a different presentation. Both DAC's can be viewed as more accurate without the preamp, I just prefer the presentation with it, and don't notice anything missing with it in. If I carefully listen, the DAC's direct are more articulate, but lack the body, scale, and dimension the preamp provides.


----------



## Crgreen

I agree that consensus is irrelevant. We all have our own priorities and preferences. All that matters is whether my system helps me enjoy music. Trying to persuade someone else of the merits of my system, or taking issue with their system, seems to me to be not only a fruitless, but misconceived activity. Aside from providing the opportunity to write reams of detailed and polished prose, where does it actually get anybody? Such skills would be better employed elsewhere.


----------



## Jawed

Generally I post to learn. Crgreen, why are you posting?


----------



## JaZZ

Hi Paul
  
 I hope it's not me you were referring to with this sentence...
   





> I just got a bit upset when people told me I don't know what a transparent system sounds like, or how to find a bottleneck.


 
  
 ...but I fear it is so. Let me tell you that I enjoyed your comparative review a lot, and it was well-balanced and absolutely compatible with this thread, a great service for the community. Probably I'll never get the chance to audition a TotalDAC d1-twelve, so your review covers at least a bit of my curiosity. I absolutely don't expect or demand that everyone likes the same gear as me, so I can live with your preference.
  
 When you go back you'll notice that I never directly insinuated that in a different system you would acknowledge the DAVE's superiority. I guess you would still like your TotalDAC better. But one thing I consider a fact: To make your system sound best with the DAVE as source, you have to color it with the preamp in the signal path. Considering that every electronics components reduces transparency, you definitely haven't heard what the DAVE is capable of in terms of transparency. This doesn't just apply to the DAVE, but also your TotalDAC. So the conclusion is justified that your system needs the specific coloration from your preamp to sound at its best and sounds less pleasing or realistic with maximum transparency and minimum coloration. That leads to the logical conclusion that something in your system makes it not entirely compatible with a signal alteration as low as possible and a transparency as high as possible. I would even venture the guess that it's more about (un)forgivingness than coloration.
  
 When I was into speakers and speaker building, I once replaced my then preamp (a Conrad Johnson PV6 IIRC) with a hand-equipped switched attenuator. The increased transparency and accuracy was immediately noticeable, but the sound of my then speaker prototypes was terribly out of balance nonetheless. This after having reached a very good sound in the previous configuration. It took me weeks of careful retuning of the crossover networks which obviously afforded much higher care and precision than with the forgiving colorations from the preamp. In the end the system sounded clearly better than before, though. Later, when I was into headphones exclusively, I experimented with the direct connection to the line out of my then DAC, a Theta Pro basic II, with its 5 ohm output impedance. It was fascinating to actually «hear» what the different headphone amps really sound like, i.e. to get to know their coloration characteristics. Despite superior transparency and transient response from the direct connection I gave the nod to my favorite headphone amp at that time instead. Because since I didn't have a software equalizer then (just an analogue parametric equalizer with much too obvious signal degradation) there was no way I could make up for the tonal imperfections causing the need for the forgivingness introduced by the amp.


----------



## Sonic77

paul79 said:


> That's true. But who? That is the question.... I post a difference, and everyone tells me my system is broken because the DAVE didn't win me over. So ya, I suppose that would cause a defense, but my butt feels fine.


 

 When I made the butt hurt comment it was not directed at anyone, but you responded, so as they say, "if the shoe fits........"


----------



## Crgreen

jawed said:


> Generally I post to learn. Crgreen, why are you posting?




Well, my last post to express a view, not to learn.

I follow some of the posts to learn how I might improve the performance of my Dave, to read Rob's posts, which are of interest, and to hear about possible future developments. Nothing I said is inconsistent with any of that.

I'm pleased that you're anxious to learn, however.


----------



## Ampus

I have been following the recent thread from the sideline and now feel obligated to voice my opinions.

I find it to be so strange that two seasoned Hifi veterans like Paul and Roy having such vast difference in opinions about the DAVE and TotalDac. DAC technology has advanced so much over the last few years to the current state of the art that for most people it would be difficult to hear night and day difference in SQ, as wisely and eloquently demonstrated in Paul's posts. After all, there is only so much that can be squeezed out of a digital file. Granted DAVE has better specifications than most other DAC's; however, it has been shown that better specifications do not always translate into better sound. Don't get me wrong, I now own a DAVE and like it a lot but still cannot hear a night and day difference in the SQ compared to my other high end DAC's, not just Mojo.

I find this forum to be somewhat biased, favoring DAVE over any other DAC. Just review the posts for yourselves and you will see what I mean. When I posted my observation about Mojo vs DAVE, even the people who never did an A/B comparison between Mojo and DAVE came out to DAVE's defense. If DAVE doesn't sound supremely good in one's system, there must be something wrong in that person's system! I realize that this is the DAVE forum but isn't forum there to help people share unbiased opinions and learn from one another?

I think that Roy means well and is really trying to help forum members but sometimes his posts come across as authoritarian. One gets the perception that any deviation from his ideas / observations is simply not acceptable. I am sure that Roy is an accomplished and successful person; however, one does not have to brag about himself to get the points across the audience. Reading some of Roy's posts reminds me of Trump bragging about himself in the debates!

In medical field, one simply cannot publish a peer-reviewed article without having done due diligent research and having validated data to back up his or her conclusion. Being a physician, Roy should know this. It is a bad practice and legally irresponsible to post disparaging opinion about a manufacturer's product based on the opinion of a single disgruntled business partner. For us the consumers, it is easy to walk away from one product to find another product; however, for the affected manufacturer, this can potentially hurt the company's livelihood and reputation in a major way! Slandering your competition to get more business to yourself unfortunately is a common practice, even in medical field. I admire straightforward and honest people like Rob Watts.

Now a day, all speakers / writers, not just the ones in medical field, are required to disclose any financial interest / kick back that they have with any organization. I suggest that HiFi.org has similar requirements for the posters to hopefully avoid any biased posting. For the record, I receive NO financial interest or kick back from any company.

Those are my 2 cents. This is a great, informative forum; however, improvements and transparency are sorely needed. I am aware that I can get flamed or even banned from this forum for posting this; however, if that happened, so be it!


----------



## paul79

sonic77 said:


> When I made the butt hurt comment it was not directed at anyone, but you responded, so as they say, "if the shoe fits........"


 

 Wow dude.


----------



## paul79

ampus said:


> I have been following the recent thread from the sideline and now feel obligated to voice my opinions.....


 
 Nice post, and thanks for sharing your opinions.


----------



## paul79

jazz said:


> Hi Paul
> 
> I hope it's not me you were referring to with this sentence...


 
 JaZZ, I completely agree with you. No doubt the preamp can do nothing but get in the way of perfect transparency. The presentation sounds fine with the DAVE direct to amps, it really does, and most would love it this way, even in my system. I just really like what my preamp does to my system. The fact that it does what it does, and still sounds very transparent to me, makes it kind of special too, to me. I do not agree it is about forgivingness.... The preamp does not forgive, whatsoever. It is a single ended, Class A, No feedback, non-inverting, with one single tube in the linestage, and 2 Copper Foil (Jupiter) Capacitors in the signal path (one for each channel). It is built to be as transparent as possible and will provide about 10db of gain above unity. It is essentially a 1 tube linestage. I would however, agree that it makes my amps happy giving the drive they like, as they were made to work together. The tube count is quite low for the whole system. Most tube preamps have more tubes than my whole system does. As a set, it is glorious. I can hear any change in my system, so I believe it to be quite true. I would go out on a limb and say that even you, in your system, my preamp would surprise you. I never made a sweeping statement that it would be the case for everybody to use a preamp with their systems or the DAVE. I also understand the questioning of my system, but I do disagree that it is far from transparent.
  
 I can judge the DAC's no problem, with or without the preamp, and I did.
  
 I also favor very neutral German and American signal tubes in my system. Valvo, Sylvania..... There are no Mullards, Amperex, etc. Coloring tubes. Clean very resolute, and very neutral tubes throughout.


----------



## romaz

ampus said:


> I have been following the recent thread from the sideline and now feel obligated to voice my opinions.
> 
> I find it to be so strange that two seasoned Hifi veterans like Paul and Roy having such vast difference in opinions about the DAVE and TotalDac. DAC technology has advanced so much over the last few years to the current state of the art that for most people it would be difficult to hear night and day difference in SQ, as wisely and eloquently demonstrated in Paul's posts. After all, there is only so much that can be squeezed out of a digital file. Granted DAVE has better specifications than most other DAC's; however, it has been shown that better specifications do not always translate into better sound. Don't get me wrong, I now own a DAVE and like it a lot but still cannot hear a night and day difference in the SQ compared to my other high end DAC's, not just Mojo.
> 
> ...


 
 I'm ok with this post.  I see no reason why it should get banned.
  
 I can't help how I am perceived and I have a thick enough skin to not be bothered by things I can't control but I certainly never intend to come across as being authoritarian or condescending and so if that is your perception, than I apologize.  I attempt to be balanced in my characterizations as I don't believe anything is perfect and I have great respect for the views of others even when they differ from my own but when someone hears or perceives a piece of equipment differently than I do, it is natural for me to question why and on more than a few occasions, it has been due to some influence that can be explained.  I recall your situation well and somehow, if you felt intimidated or disrespected by anything I said, know that this was not my intention.
  
 As I read the reviews of others, I am naturally drawn to a reviewer who has my own sensibilities and has similar equipment that I have because these are the reviews I can relate to.  Similarly, I have felt it important to provide as much about my own sensibilities and my equipment when I provide my personal views so that others can know whether they can relate to my comments.  I do indeed feel fortunate, even privileged, to frequently be in an environment where live music is playing at a high level and I speak of this often as my reference.  If you perceive this as me being uppity, then I will take note to tone it down.  I am ok with many comparisons but Donald Trump would not be one that I aspire to.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 As to the Voxativ post that you find objectionable, as I stated, in hindsight, if I could do it again, I wouldn't have posted it.  Upon further reflection, as I realize that it hurt both Vincent and Holger, I have deleted that post.  Hopefully, it's clear I have no personal vendetta against Vincent or TotalDac and at worst, it was bad judgement on my part but at the time I posted it, there was no malicious intent.  I viewed Holger's opinion no differently than Paul's.  Both are experienced and respected audiophiles that have had experiences with the same DACs but came to different conclusions.  That's all I wanted to point out. 
  
 As for this thread being biased, yes, I would say that is accurate but no different than the TotalDac thread or any other thread I have been a part of.  Again, this is a forum comprised of enthusiasts, not scientists or objectivists, and so no one statement by anyone should be considered an absolute truth (except maybe Rob's).   As for my views, they are my own and I readily acknowledge that they are biased by the glasses I wear that are colored by prior experiences and my own personal needs and wants.  I have been blessed to have experienced much and I have an insatiable curiosity to hear new things and compare.  When I do find something like the DAVE that I really connect with, it is natural for me to speak of it often and with exuberance.  If that comes across as arrogance, again, I apologize but it would probably be best to not read my posts since I don't know how to do it another way.
  
 Having said that, I will go on record to state that I have no financial ties with any audio company or organization.  I bought my Chord DAVE at market value from an authorized Chord dealer like everyone else.  I have zero financial ties with Chord, HFC, Voxativ or anyone else that I have spoken favorably of.  I view the world as being comprised of givers and takers.  In my personal and professional life, I aspire to be the former and with Head-Fi, it has been no different.  I am not perfect and I can think of a few posts I wish I could take back but I have no ulterior agenda.


----------



## jelt2359

ampus said:


> I have been following the recent thread from the sideline and now feel obligated to voice my opinions.
> 
> I find it to be so strange that two seasoned Hifi veterans like Paul and Roy having such vast difference in opinions about the DAVE and TotalDac. DAC technology has advanced so much over the last few years to the current state of the art that for most people it would be difficult to hear night and day difference in SQ, as wisely and eloquently demonstrated in Paul's posts. After all, there is only so much that can be squeezed out of a digital file. Granted DAVE has better specifications than most other DAC's; however, it has been shown that better specifications do not always translate into better sound. Don't get me wrong, I now own a DAVE and like it a lot but still cannot hear a night and day difference in the SQ compared to my other high end DAC's, not just Mojo.
> 
> ...




Perhaps Paul and Romaz disagreeing; is not any stranger than others disagreeing with you re: Mojo and Dave? I own the Dave, Hugo and Mojo. Huge fan of Chord products. If the Mojo sounded anywhere close to the Dave I would have saved a tonne of money- that being the most recent dac I bought. Alas! Consider yourself fortunate that you have a difference experience than I. 

Two other points:

I personally read all posts on an anonymous online forum with a pinch of salt. Heck, review sites too. I don't consider anyone's posts authoritative. I've never read Romaz nor anyone else in this thread writing anything to this effect either, "if you disagree you are wrong". What I enjoy about this thread (admittedly I don't follow many other high end threads) is that it's clear the owners here can easily buy a Dave (or three) and so agendas are less around these parts. This is not a medical journal, which btw is a strange comparison- do all published doctors really have no agendas? Then big pharma, and any other company with a "medical" point to prove (NFL with concussions for eg) are not doing their jobs. 

But as my illustrious stats prof once said, a single data point is better than zero. Some data, no matter how small, is always good. Whether that translates to authority, however is in the eye of the beholder  Personally I do think Romaz is somewhat of an authority because of his well-thought, unbiased posts. Can others who are similarly well-thought and unbiased have different opinions? Why the world not!


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## hieukm

Although i do own the Dave , i feel it is essential to have criticism towards it.

Here is an example of someone who thought old combo Dcs purcell/delious and Playback Design Merlot DAC are better than Dave.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?21633-Chord-DAVE-Aune-S16-etc-more-comparative-listening-(rambling-amp-tedious)

On anothet website, there are other opinions that Dave is equally good with Berkeyley Ref 2.

http://www.audioshark.org/computer-digital-audio-11/berkeley-audio-reference-2-dac-10471.html


Then another opinion from another extreme high-end community that Trinity DAC should trump all including Total Twelve, Dcs Vivaldi stacks and MSB stacks where as in here i have seen two posts disqualitfy the Trinity DAC.

My opinion is when we comparing Top of the line DAC onwards you need top of line speakers setup to fully comprehend the difference. Headphone setup cant present all of the characteristic of DAC. Paul's systems are more capacable to make thea assessment in my humble opinion. I also think it is logical that DAC cost 30k is better than Dave.


----------



## zare

jawed said:


> If we take, at face value, your and your friend's criticism of DAVE as being much less transparent then there's only two aspects of DAVE that can be meaningfully questioned: the entire algorithm of DAVE (WTA over-sampling, noise-shaping,* 104MHz *5-bit 20-element digital to analogue conversion);


 
  
 You can actually use this DAC for FM brocading 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Kidding aside, I like when people write how they perceive music and what they feel when listening to music. What I dont like is statement describing ex. position of instruments, vocals e.t.c. Were you there when recording was made? Do you understand the process of recording? Maybe you was doing the mixing of the master. When was last time you were on live performance where you can hear not amplified music. Piano is one of the instruments that is not easy to reproduce correctly, so having baseline great starting point. Yet again, you have different piano manufacturers which can have tonal signatures.
  
 Never ending story.
  
 Since of psychoacoustic is extensive and peoples interpretation of reproduced music will always be different.


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## x RELIC x

hieukm said:


> Although i do own the Dave , i feel it is essential to have criticism towards it.
> 
> Here is an example of someone who thought old combo Dcs purcell/delious and Playback Design Merlot DAC are better than Dave.
> 
> ...




One question I always have when reading comparisons is, who is to say what a neutral reference is when listening to recordings? Reading the first link you provided this is quite apparent (IMO). Perhaps a user is conditioned to think a certain piece of gear, or a combination of gear, is their neutral, which may not be true for others. I've made those kind of comments before. The only reliable reference to me is a recorded live session that the listener was present at. All other comments of neutral, again, to me, are taken with a grain of salt.




> I also think it is logical that DAC cost 30k is better than Dave.




This I've learned is not a standard to always go by when talking about audio quality. I try not to listen with my wallet. Not that more expensive gear is not worthy, just that equating cost directly to sound quality doesn't always work out.

Of course, this is just my humble opinion, YMMV.


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## lovethatsound

hieukm said:


> Although i do own the Dave , i feel it is essential to have criticism towards it.
> 
> Here is an example of someone who thought old combo Dcs purcell/delious and Playback Design Merlot DAC are better than Dave.
> 
> ...


Just because something cost's more doesn't mean it's better.One of the ways to go forward here is to get all these other dacs measured,just like the Dave is,if they cost more they should have better measurements shouldn't they?Vincent(totaldac)you up for that?Head-fi it's self could do the test,so all would be fair.


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## analogmusic

Ho Hum.
  
 Many people look for different things in music and in a DAC.
  
 https://www.amazon.com/VIVA-Hysteria-DVD-Combo-Deluxe/dp/B00E5N8E2O
  
 For me this live CD shows what a Chord DAC is capable of especially Disc 2, track 1, "Good Morning Freedom"
  
 When a live Rock show starts, there is no place for a DACs weaknesses to hide, it has to cope with the speed of the musicians and the energy.
  
 The Hugo has no problems. I haven't heard the other DACs, but then can you bring them to the office, and also they cost a lot more than Dave.


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## EVOLVIST

hieukm said:


> My opinion is when we comparing Top of the line DAC onwards you need top of line speakers setup to fully comprehend the difference. Headphone setup cant present all of the characteristic of DAC.




See, I don't agree with this at all, but who cares, right? I know that I don't. 

Headphones peer into the recording more, that you're able to tell how resolving a DAC is. The trade off, of course, is that with headphones lack an overall aura attached to the physical sensations of of speaker listening. With both, however, you're getting a "colored" sound, it's just how much coloration is the question, and are you willing to pay the price for both headphones and/or speakers (depending on preference) to match your TOTL DAC? Sometimes there's a hefty price tag attached to this pairing and sometimes not.

I'm becoming to see, though, that all of these cables and ancillary things I'm spending my time with is mostly a bunch of crap if I don't have the right cans for my DAC. I would assume the same for the person who prefers speakers.


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## hieukm

In my opinion, there are many things that headphones will not do compare to a speaker setup. For example, the ambienc, the image, the focus, the hologgraphic and 3d soundstage, the dynamic, instrument separation and especially the air around notes. When come to the territory of high end audio, it is often no longer the accuracy of frequency( treble/mid/bass) that separates the gears but the abovementioned qualities and musicality which makes the difference. Hence if you using headphones, its unlikely that you are able to distint. Not to mention the fact that headphone community is not so much into power conditioning which i believe is a huge part in achieving high end sound.

To bluntly put it, it is my opinion that for head phones, the ultimate goal is to listen to the recordings in the most accurate way possibile without taken into account room enviroment. For speaker, the ultimate goal is to recreate the pefformance in your room. 

Relating to the cost objective, i do think that giants slayer do exist but they are very few, especially at 1-3 ratio at 15k price point and DAC related.


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## ubs28

hieukm said:


> In my opinion, there are many things that headphones will not do compare to a speaker setup. For example, the ambienc, the image, the focus, the hologgraphic and 3d soundstage, the dynamic, instrument separation and especially the air around notes. When come to the territory of high end audio, it is often no longer the accuracy of frequency( treble/mid/bass) that separates the gears but the abovementioned qualities and musicality which makes the difference. Hence if you using headphones, its unlikely that you are able to distint. Not to mention the fact that headphone community is not so much into power conditioning which i believe is a huge part in achieving high end sound.
> 
> Relating to the cost objective, i do think that giants slayer do exist but they are very few, especially at 1-3 ratio at 15k price point and DAC related.


 

 In my opinion, what you hear is the room rather the actual recording. According to my ears, headphones are better at detail retrieval and the loss of "ambience" and air is because there is no interaction with the room (which is a good thing if you want to hear the actual recording and the equipment). 
  
 I do agree with the dynamics part, especially with respect to bass.


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## Beolab

paul79 said:


> To heck with it... I can't avoid this thread it seems      I have a second opinion from a friend that knows my system very well also, so I have to share this for the people that don't mind the competition.
> 
> I thought this was a High End Audio Head Fi Thread? I didn't realize it was a Chord only thread. There are only a couple of you guys who don't like what I did, and that is fine with me. As for the rest, who wouldn't want to know how the DAVE compared to the Twelve? The DAVE was compared to the Monobloc, so I compared the DAVE to the Twelve, and posted it right here on the DAVE thread.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Thanks for the impressions you have made, very nice write up!
  
 i have just one problem and that is the choice of music / style for reviewing, and i am very interested in what other type of music you where listening to besides the two you where referring to?
  
 I know this is going to sound very odd, but i listened to your listed tracks and they got fairly low DMR, and they are not using the full register bandwidth, or push out the best of either the Twelve or the DAVE.
 You could have dune a blind test with a cheapo DAC in the middle with this kind of music, and most likely you have guessed it was either DAVE or the Twelve because of the easiness of render it.
 It did not show of any fine nuances or inner detail or any layering at all.
 The recordings is very 2D and flat.
 I think both DAVE and TotalDac can sound very similar to a cheapo DAC in some kind of music, but the high end DAC's often excels when you give them the right fuel, and this was Diesel for my ears=)   
  
 Then your  power amp and pre amp set the synergi with each of the DAC's, so it is up to your own taste of how it should sound. The only way to hear the DAVE's potential is to let it drive a high sensitive speakers like Roy's solution, or through sensitive high end headphones.
  
  
  
 / Fredrik


----------



## Articnoise

x relic x said:


> One question I always have when reading comparisons is, who is to say what a neutral reference is when listening to recordings? Reading the first link you provided this is quite apparent (IMO). Perhaps a user is conditioned to think a certain piece of gear, or a combination of gear, is their neutral, which may not be true for others. I've made those kind of comments before. The only reliable reference to me is a recorded live session that the listener was present at. All other comments of neutral, again, to me, are taken with a grain of salt.
> This I've learned is not a standard to always go by when talking about audio quality. I try not to listen with my wallet. Not that more expensive gear is not worthy, just that equating cost directly to sound quality doesn't always work out.
> 
> Of course, this is just my humble opinion, YMMV.


 
  

 Relic I have another way of describing if the sound is neutral. My is maybe not better, but is how I have understand it to be used. For me neutral means that the sound from the recording is exactly as in the recording. To test this we use measurements, test loops and things like that. Natural is the term I would use to describe the sound from a live session. The goal is a bit different as it is tuned to compensate from “general” artifacts that all mic and mixer board etc adds to the final sound. 

  

 I totally agree on the main point you made about “who is to say what a neutral reference is when listening to recordings?” Especially if talking about a single piece of gear in a whole audio system. To say with absolute certainty that one piece of gear is neutral we need to know that all the other gear in the system that we use are absolute neutral as well. We need reference gear to do that, in other word measurement. To say with absolute certainty that one piece of gear is natural we need to know how all the gear and how the recording system sounds like, including placement of mics, cable brand and length etc. Not all mics, mixer board, ADC and cables sound the same. That’s the problem, so many uncertain variable in audio. 

  

 The good thing is then the gear and recordings are all properly done and matched the sound can be so real that the artists literally sounds to be in the room with you.


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## Articnoise

I think that it is great to read reviews from people like Roy and Paul that have test a lot of good gear. If they have come to different conclusions on which gear they like the best, I consider those opinion to be more informative than total agreement. I know it may sound like nonsense, but still for me it sorts out the “real” strength of the gear in a way that I don’t really get a feel for with only posts that are in full agreement on all sound aspects.


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## rkt31

imho headphones can't match the imaging produced by speakers that's why binaural recordings were invented. no doubt headphones can be more transparent specially with the dac's like Dave and hugo which allow direct sound from the dac to headphone, without using a headphone amp. but due to human hearing which involves sounds coming from a distance ( like in speakers ) rather than right over the ear ( headphones) , the exact recreation of live event with headphones is not possible , even binaural recordings have its own limitations. after buying hugo for my speaker set up, I bought a decent flat sounding headphones ( beyerdynamic dt880 , 600ohm ) , while these headphones definitely produce more finer details but when it comes to dynamics , punch, depth, realism , musicality ( yes speakers are more musical imho) ambience etc , headphones simply can't match the speakers at least for me. room interaction can be controlled but even if these are present , these are the part of natural hearing process of humans.


----------



## x RELIC x

articnoise said:


> Relic I have another way of describing if the sound is neutral. My is maybe not better, but is how I have understand it to be used. For me neutral means that the sound from the recording is exactly as in the recording. To test this we use measurements, test loops and things like that. Natural is the term I would use to describe the sound from a live session. The goal is a bit different as it is tuned to compensate from “general” artifacts that all mic and mixer board etc adds to the final sound.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you for expanding on my thoughts. Yes, I agree, if one is privileged to be at the recording session or in the studio during the mix, and to knows well the gear involved, then and only then can one truly call the system neutral relative to what is involved in the original recording/mix and what it;s being played back on. The trouble is reading so many different perspectives about 'neutral' it becomes obvious that a lot of these statements are _personal preference_ for neutral (not pointing to anyone in particular here at all).

Measurements, to a degree, are exceedingly helpful to determine the performance of our gear, but I also am of the mindset that our brains aural ability is more capable than any measurement system we currently have at our disposal. Of course measurements give us a fantastic idea of how a piece of gear does perform relative to others but I don't think we can truly rely only on measurements over our ability to hear a better sound. Of course there is a very fine line to walk here and placebo and bias are _huge_ factors. Indeed, until Rob talked about noise floor modulation in the system I couldn't fully understand why some gear simply sounded harsh and brittle, even though it measured good and comparable to other gear. Fascinating how the small things can have an effect that's quite noticeable, and yet we simply don't measure them, or can't yet. Same with small signal resolution. Who knew that it would affect the perception of depth. Cool.

Edit: Just to add, my main initial point was that the simplest test would be to have a quality mic and ADC recording a live performance would be the best and most direct way to reference how neutral the DAVE is compared to what the listener is hearing. Testing mainstream recordings is a bag of unknowns.


----------



## x RELIC x

rkt31 said:


> imho headphones can't match the imaging produced by speakers that's why binaural recordings were invented. no doubt headphones can be more transparent specially with the dac's like Dave and hugo which allow direct sound from the dac to headphone, without using a headphone amp. but due to human hearing which involves sounds coming from a distance ( like in speakers ) rather than right over the ear ( headphones) , the exact recreation of live event with headphones is not possible , even binaural recordings have its own limitations. after buying hugo for my speaker set up, I bought a decent flat sounding headphones ( beyerdynamic dt880 , 600ohm ) , while these headphones definitely produce more finer details but when it comes to dynamics , punch, depth, realism , musicality ( yes speakers are more musical imho) ambience etc , headphones simply can't match the speakers at least for me. room interaction can be controlled but even if these are present , these are the part of natural hearing process of humans.




A huge part of our ability to image is from the minisicule time delay difference the sound waves arrive at each ear, which is why binaural recordings work so much better for headphones, because each ear is getting a better representation of the actual time delay in the recording. This is also a huge reason why speaker placement and room treatment are so important to image properly (reflections and interference waves not withstanding).


----------



## Jawed

This article summarises what's required to make headphones "do 3D":

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/aes-headphone-technology-conference-highlight-paper#pJsiRF6bqBqihwkF.97



> His conclusion is that the only way to make very accurate studio monitor headphones is to first tune the headphone to the diffuse field response—as it delivers the least linear distortion in the transducer/ear interface and will be able to most accurately play an incoming signal for the ear. Then, using digital signal processing (DSP), create a fake room using binaural room impulse response information for a high acoustic quality listening room. Then create virtual speakers in that room to play the sound. Then add a head tracker and a bunch of HRTF data so that you can move your head normally and hear the cues change—because your brain won't be reliably fooled if you don't. Research shows that if you do all these things, only then can you properly perceive tonal neutrality on headphones.




This is basically what the Smyth Realiser A16 does:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/807459/smyth-research-realiser-a16

and it has no difficulty reproducing the soundstage that a Dolby Atmos speaker setup can portray. Essentially it's possible for headphones, with a correctly derived personalised head related transfer function to completely disappear and render a fully realistic sound field.

I've listened to the A16. It's extraordinary.


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## rkt31

@x RELIC x , yes exactly. binaural recordings already incorporate the delay perceived by the two ears and headphones allow that recording to be heard by each ear without adding further delay or any further interaction because headphones place the transducers closest possible to ears unlike speakers but then binaural recordings have its own limitations due to physics.


----------



## Rob Watts

Sound quality does not matter.
  
 By this I mean it is not the most important thing - its the ability to get emotional satisfaction from music (musicality) that is primary.
  
 And I get to "enjoy" lots of über DAC's at shows - and for me - and of course this is highly personal - they fail big time as regards musicality. I get more musical satisfaction from little old Mojo than any of these über DAC's do.
  
 Moreover, I am absolutely convinced that Mojo (ignore Dave for the time being) will beat any other DAC at any price point when it comes down to enjoying music. Why am I so convinced? Because there are sound technical and objective reasons why this would be the case. Let us consider the three most important things that is important for a DAC/amplifier:
  
  
*1. Timing* - if you spend any time researching psycho-acoustics you will appreciate that timing is the most important parameter that the brain uses to process the data from the ears. It is used for location, timbre, and being able to perceive the starting and stopping of notes. So when I talk about timing problems, what do I mean? Now I am *NOT* talking about phase errors, or timing differences with frequency response - these are linear errors, and are inconsequential - the brain is used to dealing with these kinds of problems. What I am talking about is when the timing of transients varies either with amplitude (a transient will have a different time depending on whether it is small amplitude or a large amplitude signal) or when the timing of a transient depends upon when it is sampled by the ADC. So if a transient crosses through zero half way between samples, differing interpolation filters will not recreate the timing of the transient accurately, and this sampling dependent uncertainty is highly audible. So how big is the problem of timing? Looking at all the many listening tests I have done, my contention is that a DAC/amp must be accurate down to tens of nS in that surprisingly small timing errors are very audible. 
 So what DAC's have minimal timing problems? Let's look at the interpolation filter first, something that is in all DAC's (yes even NOS DAC's have an interpolation filter). Now the job of the interpolation filter is to reconstruct the timing of transients and to remove the HF images of the signal that extends to infinite frequencies that is due to the sampling process. In short, it is part of the process that takes the discontinuous digital data and converts it back into a continuous analogue signal. The better the interpolation filter, the more accurate this is done (closer to the original analogue signal in the ADC before it was sampled). Now the accuracy of the filter in terms of how well transient timing is reconstructed depends upon the filter tap length, and the type of filter. NOS filters are by far the worst, with timing errors of up to a hundred uS. A NOS filter (this is a bad term, all DAC's oversample) is actually a zero order hold interpolation filter, where the oversample rate is determined by the DAC that is used. Because the timing errors are so huge, they sound very soft (when you get timing errors, the brain can't deal with the data, so it can't actually perceive the starting and stopping of notes - and if you can't hear the starting of a note, it sounds soft or out of focus). Now some people like this; but it is clearly artificial and is categorically not transparent. The usual FIR filter is a half band interpolation filter, with a tens of taps. This filter is better than zero order hold (NOS) for timing, but still has massive errors, as there is considerable measurable sampling image errors. These filters return the original sample unchanged, and they are cheap to implement which is why they are used for 99% of the time. Apodizing filters can offer better performance, but they still have substantial timing errors.
 So how can you reconstruct the timing of transients perfectly? If you look at sampling theory, it has been proven that a Whittaker-Shannon interpolation filter will return a bandwidth limited sampled signal *absolutely perfectly;* there will be no timing or amplitude errors at all. But to have an ideal interpolation filter you need a sinc impulse response and many many taps; to absolutely guarantee just 16 bit performance under all circumstances the coefficients need to be smaller than 16 bits - and this happens at about 1 million taps for a 16 FS filter. And every listening test I have ever done gives the same conclusion - more taps, better and more transparent sound quality. Even with Dave at 164,000 taps, we have not reached the subjective limit yet.
 So onto the next timing problem - amplitude errors. Now R2R DAC's have slow FET's to switch the resistors in and out, and these themselves cause their own glitch issues. Moreover, they are very slow - you can only go to 16FS max - so that means the timing is limited to only 1.3 uS. DSD dac's have very large amplitude timing errors too - a small signal has a much bigger delay than a large signal. Currently, the only technique that has the smallest amplitude related timing error is pulse array, as it runs 5 bits at 104 MHz - many times faster than any other DAC topology.
 So to solve the timing issues you absolutely need extremely fast DAC's, and very large tap lengths. Even Mojo easily beats all other non Chord DAC's in this regard.   
  
*2. Small signal resolution.* Clearly small signals are vital - if you can't hear the tiny details, then it no longer becomes a believable performance. Small signals also are used for depth perception, something that I am personally very interested in. Go to a cathedral and listen to an organ at 100 m away; it sounds 100 m away - but reproduced audio is severely depth truncated. Now small signal linearity is measured using fundamental linearity tests - you measure the amplitude of a -60db, set that value as a reference, then measure at -120 dB say. It should be exactly -120.000 dB, but a real DAC won't be. Delta sigma or DSD will actually attenuate the level, R2R will have random errors due to resistor tolerance problems. When it comes to depth perception, there is something extremely strange - any small signal amplitude error (no matter how small) affects depth perception. That's why Dave has 350 dB performance noise shaping, as increasing the performance of the noise shaper gave much better depth performance. Now R2R DAC's have easily measurable small signal errors; DSD is only -120dB accurate noise shaping; conventional DAC noise shapers are about -140dB; Mojo is at -200 dB, and Dave takes the record at -350 dB. I have published FFT's showing Dave's noise shaper performance.
 Now this issue is more complex than this; you also need simple analogue stages to further improve performance, you additionally you need a distortion performance that gets better as the signal get smaller.
  
*3. Noise floor modulation. *This is another can of worms, as DAC's have a multitude of problems from different areas for this. Noise floor modulation is subjectively very important; it is when the noise floor changes with signal level. All conventional DAC's have large amounts of noise floor modulation, and it is my contention that it is very audible - it adds a hardness or grain to the sound. Even the tiniest amount affects smoothness and refinement. With Mojo, we have no measurable noise floor modulation - and similarly Dave but with an even lower noise floor. I have not seen any other DAC come close to this performance.
  
 This gives you a brief flavour of the issues involved in producing a truly transparent DAC; and for me it's only by having a truly transparent DAC that one can get musicality. But of course some people have very different tastes, and respond differently to music. Some people like a particular sound; I have done some listening sessions when I drew the complete opposite opinion to somebody else. Some people like distortion; others like an overly soft warm sound. Whatever floats your boat I guess.
  
 Rob


----------



## x RELIC x

Jawed, have you compared the Smyth Realizer A16 to Darin Fong's Out of Your Head software?


----------



## ecwl

I just realized I have said a few things about Chord DACs in private locally that I have never posted here. I am biased and I love the latest generation of Chord DACs from Mojo to DAVE. I explain to local audiophile friends that if we understand the design of Chord DACs, we can ask ourselves following question: Rob Watts could have designed any DAC but he chose to design Chord DACs the way it is done. Why?
  
 Rob is a master of programming FPGAs for DACs. If he thinks DSD/PWM is the best way to go, he could have just programmed an FPGA to convert to 2xDSD, 10xDSD or even 32xDSD. He would not need to design a 20-element Pulse Array DAC to follow it. In fact, he probably could have done it 10 years ago if he wanted to and that design would probably be superior to some of the current DSD DAC designs. If he thinks R2R is the best way to go, once again, he could have just programmed an FPGA to upsample everything to 16fs and feed it to an R2R DAC and then work on everything else that goes with an R2R DAC. Or if he thinks DAC chips are good enough, he could have just programmed an FPGA to feed a DAC chip at the sample rate of his choice and then optimize the performance he can squeeze from the DAC chip.
  
 I think in general, people go out of their way to design something complex because they believe there is something to be gained from their design that other designs do not offer. Whether we understand it or appreciate it is another matter.
  
 If we are willing to assume that Chord DACs are technically superior, we can ask ourselves why don't everyone prefer them?
  
 I think a major challenge is that we are used to hearing DAC chip sound, and for the lucky few, we get to hear and accustom ourselves to DSD/R2R sound. So unless we go to a lot of live acoustic concerts, we bias ourselves to our DAC's sound. Moreover, most of our electronics are then tailored to optimize the sound we get from the DACs we own. If I own a DAC with a DAC chip design that has too much noise floor modulation, making it too bright sounding, I might get a tube preamp/amp to soften the sound or I might get speakers/headphones that roll off in the high frequencies. So a Chord DAC is going to sound too "soft" in my system. If I have a DSD DAC that's slightly soft, I might get an older class D amplifier or my USB/coaxial source might have more RF that gets injected into the DSD DAC to add more noise floor modulation to brighten things up. Of course, the more we deviate from neutrality, the harder it is to recover as much as we possibly can from the original music.
  
 I think this is why whenever I read any reviews, I always try to find out what equipments the reviewers are using with the DAC they are testing.
  
 And truth be told, nobody likes to be told the gear they own are not neutral or inferior or problematic. But I think a few people have said in this forum that everything we own have some sort of distortion. I certainly think that's true for my own gear and they are a set of compromises in terms of price, space, etc. At the same time, I don't think it's fair to say that since all DACs have distortions, therefore if I like my DAC more than a Chord DAC, Chord DACs are just one of many to choose from. I think the opinion that one prefers another DAC to Chord DAC is valid. But I appreciate people like Romaz who defends Chord DAVE on a sonic and technical merit and correlate the two to explain to people what more they can get out of their music due to the technical advantages of Chord DAVE.
  
 With all that said, people buy what they like. So if they still like another DAC over Chord DAVE, good for them.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Relic
'Imaging' is an interesting subject in itself. As you say, speaker placement and decent quality timing of the type produced by Dave Dac helps too. However, I have always been intrigued as to why Conga's, classical guitar, wood blocks for instance image particularly well on almost any old system. At the same time I am sure we have all noticed that anything in the chain which accentuates greater weight to instruments seems to improve the perceived image of the instrument. Also I compared a flat response Kef speaker 205/2 reference and the Sonus Faber Olympica III and noticed that the Olympica III was able to to throw a clear image even when I got close to one of the speakers. It did not give away the real source of the sound until very close. The flat response kef gave away its true source earlier as I moved toward the speaker. The Olympica has a 3-4db frequency dip between 1-3khz and I wondered if this dip helped my brain clarify its reading of positional information in the lower frequencies. This may be a reason for SF's longstanding taylored frequency band dip in this area. I believe the design trick works for them because it effectively narrows the predominant frequency band of 'all' instruments and voices, making it easier for our brain to pinpoint the image without the need for an area of the spectrum which it can do without in relation to calculating position. That 1-3khz frequency band serves to cloud the frequencies which the brain really wants to focus on in order to place the image. Of course there is more to the pleasure of hifi than pure imaging and this drove me to try the Piega Coax 90.2 which is as flat as a millpond in regard to their frequency signature. So I ran them in and noticed that the image greatly improved when the woofers were run in. It was quite noticable. Being an Analyst by nature and profession I couldn't help but spend a little time researching this. I started with what I consider the best imaging instrument, Congas. They tend to fit into a 400hz, 700hz, 900hz peaks sound signature. They have the percussive weight around 400hz therefore. (Depending on the size of instrument this can dip as low as 200hz.) This is interesting because the Piega Coax tweeter/mid crosses over to the woofers at 400hz. I also found a NASA research paper on phase and our ability to place images and coincidentally their tests focussed on the frequency band 200-400hz. 

In my view it is the percussive weight in that narrow frequency band which provides easiest (and perhaps most desirable) clue for our brain to do its work. The less prominent that area is, the harder it is to place exactly. All the instruments which image best also seem to exhibit a fairly narrow 'concentrated' bandwidth or have a bump in that frequency range.

This makes me wonder too if Robs finding that it took -340db design to place a church organ 200 ft away. What he had perhaps unwittingly designed was one of the hardest tests in hifi. A massively wide bandwidth instrument in the most notorious of reberating large rooms. Under those circumstances I would expect the 200-400hz frequency band to be all but buried in sound reverberation across a wide frequency range. It's a great test!

Anyway, if I am correct in my assumptions the moral would seem to be, if you are a lover of imaging then probably don't buy a speaker with a dip in the 200-400hz frequency band. 


Edit: when I talk about the ease by which the brain is able to calculate placement I am assuming there is no inherent phase distortion when making comparisons.


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## doraymon

rob watts said:


> Sound quality does not matter.
> 
> By this I mean it is not the most important thing - its the ability to get emotional satisfaction from music (musicality) that is primary.
> 
> ...



Fully agreed on the importance of musicality and the emotions we get from hearing music.
Let's also agree that having a truly transparent DAC is the best way to get musicality.
But than my next point is the following: if transparency guarantees the exact reproduction of whatever the sound engineer wanted to render during the recording session, the journey to musicality nirvana is still long. We should than start questioning if the recording itself is even capable of delivering such emotions.

It's a difficult point I'm trying to make here. What I mean is that I am not convinced that it's even realistic to strive for a full chain of perfection, because even a recording room which absorbs all sound reflection can actually sound very weird and unnatural.
Of course the capability of reproducing little details and other points you mentioned are essential to make music sound "realistic".
However I am more keen to believe that it's a combination of little errors and deformations that can generate that magic harmony that eventually makes you feel the emotions.

Sorry, I don't know if this makes any sense, I am not an expert at all but I can definitely tell what gives me that "click" when I hear a DAC.


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## hieukm

Can you guys help and comment your impression on how your system compare with the sound in the video. Would love to hear opinions from TOTL headphone users. ​  
 Go to the video in this link(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2AJeC7R_no) and go to 8:44. Listen the test song that the couple use to test the speaker. Afterwards, listen to the same song in your system. The name of the song is Zigeunerweisen, Op. 20, No. 1 by "Pablo de Sarasate, Lara St. John, Ilan Rechtman". The same cut start from 6:22 into the song. You can search using Tidal/other streaming service. ​


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## Jawed

x relic x said:


> Jawed, have you compared the Smyth Realizer A16 to Darin Fong's Out of Your Head software?



I can't compare them since I've only heard A16 at CanJam.

When I got home after that day at Canjam I tried OOYH. I wasn't impressed.

From the demos on their website, the Individual Virtual Speaker Demo - 8 speakers fails to provide a convincing image of the left, front and right speakers. It could be failing entirely because the "average" HRTF is a terrible match for me. A16 was utterly convincing doing the same thing. A16 does scale and space, but OOYH with the default configuration, for me, presents a fake, vaguely spacious sound.

I think there is nothing for it but to have your own HRTF measured with microphones or computed. There is a lot of research on computing HRTFs and it appears likely that computed HRTFs will be good enough.

OOYH can render a pleasingly spacious sound from stereo or multi-channel sources. I don't like the sound of speakers in a room as boom and wall reflection effects are unpleasant. So hearing those faults spoils the experience for me. Both OOYH and A16 are based on speaker sound in a room, so both suffer from this fault in my opinion. The virtual speaker demo I referenced earlier appears to be trying to model a bad sounding room.

My preference is for an idealised reproduction model where the boom and wall reflection effects in playback solely derive from the recording. The space you perceive should be solely the space in the recording, devoid of any artefacts from the listening environment.

I have no idea if OOYH with a personalised measurement can be as good as A16. For many people wanting to use A16 they're going to be stuck using an approximation: combining a measured room/speaker system uploaded by someone else with their personalised measurement. That wouldn't be as good as taking your personalised measurement while in that room with that speaker system. I don't know how much of a compromise that would be.


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## DaveRedRef-III

I would like to seek your advice/opinions on streaming red book as opposed to top quality CD disc players. I currently listen exclusively to CD played through a Red Reference III digitally linked to Dave. My question is, have any of you guys compared top quality CD replay against a streaming setup playing red book from a solid hard disk into Dave via USB?

Tia


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## EVOLVIST

jawed said:


> I have no idea if OOYH with a personalised measurement can be as good as A16. For many people wanting to use A16 they're going to be stuck using an approximation: combining a measured room/speaker system uploaded by someone else with their personalised measurement. That wouldn't be as good as taking your personalised measurement while in that room with that speaker system. I don't know how much of a compromise that would be.




It's been said by Smyth Research that non-personalised HRTFs Will give approximately 90%+ of the experience, but not 100%.

I was hit and heavy for an A16 until I realised that I wouldn't be able to get my hands on a new one until late 2017, at best. Chances are 2018.


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## ecwl

daveredref-iii said:


> I would like to seek your advice/opinions on streaming red book as opposed to top quality CD disc players. I currently listen exclusively to CD played through a Red Reference III digitally linked to Dave. My question is, have any of you guys compared top quality CD replay against a streaming setup playing red book from a solid hard disk into Dave via USB?
> 
> Tia


 

 My take is that the sonic difference to me playing off a cheap Oppo BDP-103 via Toslink into the DAVE vs my USB setup (which is not as good as microRendu I presume) is present but not very significant. So for someone who is comfortable with playing CDs exclusively and has never done computer audio, I'd probably would not recommend anyone to switch from a CD transport to computer audio. The other way to think about it is if you're going to go into computer audio for DAVE, you're probably going to go all in and get the microRendu so the entire setup process is a bit intense if you're computer audio naive.
  
 Besides, I thought Chord was planning to upgrade the Red III so that you can still use the Red III to upsample to 176kHz 24-bit but now with even more taps than the DAVE can provide. That could definitely be a worthwhile upgrade.
  
 Anyway, my take is if you want to go into computer audio, you should just take the dive and have fun with it. But I wouldn't get into computer audio just to squeeze out that extra bit of performance out of DAVE. It'll be interesting to see what others think.


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## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks for your honest reply. Obviously you are tempting me with stories of an RRIII upgrade. Oddly though I currently find 44.1 on the RR3 more natural going into Dave than 88.2 there is an ease to it that the tighter 88.2 rendition does not seem to posess.


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## ecwl

daveredref-iii said:


> Thanks for your honest reply. Obviously you are tempting me with stories of an RRIII upgrade. Oddly though I currently find 44.1 on the RR3 more natural going into Dave than 88.2 there is an ease to it that the tighter 88.2 rendition does not seem to posess.




I think Red III currently has 18000 taps to do the 4fs upsampling. If you send 44.1 to DAVE, with 164000 taps, I'm guessing 41000 taps are devoted to the first 4fs upsampling. That's why sending 44.1 to DAVE sounds better. Besides DAVE has a more up-to-date WTA algorithm. I'm simplifying and misrepresenting a few details and guessing a bit but you get the gist. I'm sure Rob Watts and John Franks can fill you in on more details that's actually correct instead of my guesses. Not sure how many taps go into the Red III upgrade...


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## x RELIC x

Thanks for the reply Jawed


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## EVOLVIST

So, does anyone else listen to their DAVE on Negative Phase?

There seems to a be "rightness" with this setting and headphones, as if everything is just settled into its own pocket.

That might change with new cans, but right now I can't bring myself to set it to Positive. It just doesn't sound right, while other DACs I've had with this feature sounded the best with Positive. 

Anyone? It seems that the reviewers are WhatHiFi felt the same.


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## Beolab

Poitive is the only alternative for me, it think it sounds a bit odd with the DAVE set to negative, but it is depending on the recording of course, and about 30% of all recordings is recorded by misstake out of phase, but the rest is correct.


----------



## romaz

I would like to acknowledge that my Voxativ post revealing details of a conversation that Holger Adler had with me was ill-conceived and disruptive to this fine thread.  While I indicated that my intentions were not malicious, in hindsight, they undoubtedly cast a negative light on both TotalDac and Voxativ that neither deserved.  I have privately apologized to both Holger and Vincent, two people I respect greatly.  I believe Vincent and I are on good terms again.  I have great respect for Vincent and I wish him and TotalDac nothing but success.  No party has asked me to retract my damaging post, I did so voluntarily.  A copy of my post remains on @Sonic77's post (post #5066).  I have asked the moderator to remove the portion of his post that contains my quote.  Thus far, it hasn't happened and so Sonic, I would appreciate it if you would do so.  I appreciate the kind sentiment on my behalf.  Thank you.
  
 I would also like to apologize to Chord, Rob, John and this thread for the disruption that my post caused.  It seems to have steered this thread into somewhat of a mean-spirited direction for a while which is unfortunate and for my part in it, I apologize.  Undoubtedly, people tune in to glean Rob's wisdom and he has been incredibly generous in sharing it.  Hopefully, it will steer in that direction once again.


----------



## romaz

hieukm said:


> Although i do own the Dave , i feel it is essential to have criticism towards it.
> 
> Here is an example of someone who thought old combo Dcs purcell/delious and Playback Design Merlot DAC are better than Dave.
> 
> ...


 
  
 This is an interesting post and contains lots of points to debate.
  
 It seems you have an issue with the DAVE because it doesn't cost more and that you subscribe to the logic that price is the primary determiner of quality.  I think this logic makes sense provided that the cost of a DAC truly went into a specific design that made a difference and not just into the pocket of the DAC company.  I spoke to an employee of a certain DAC company over the summer whom I shall not name.  They make a "made to order" DAC that fully configured tops out at $180,000 USD and they are content if they only sell 1-2 per year.  They make this DAC so that they can have a statement piece to help sell their less expensive DACs (about $30k).  In the view of this company, this statement DAC helps elevate their brand.  The interesting thing, according to this employee, is that while this statement DAC includes better and much more expensive components, it doesn't really sound much better than their standard DAC, at least this is this person's opinion.  Why they charge so much is because they cater primarily to a certain part of the world that would never look at their products unless they charge more and so that's what they do.  According to this person, this culture looks primarily at cost as a measure of quality and so this person readily admits that they have a very high-profit margin with each of their DACs in this part of the world because that's the only way they can sell them.  Now I haven't listened to their $180k DAC because it's not a DAC they have lying around but I did hear their more standard DAC ($30k) on their speakers in their own factory and was able to compare it to my DAVE and I can tell you the DAVE was better as far as detail retrieval, time resolution, musicality and all the other factors that matter to me.
  
 As for headphone listening, you're correct, it has limitations but if someone wants to fully evaluate the performance of a DAC, you really should listen to both and not just one or the other.  Many professional mixers actually work with headphones and not speakers for a reason, because they can be more resolving and more accurate.  With headphones, you can hear more of the subtleties of the expression of a voice, for example.  Yes, there is no question that speakers can image better, present more realistic depth and soundstage and can be more palpably dynamic but as of today, there is no more transparent listening experience than DAVE direct to headphone.  Once again, that will change next year when Chord releases their digital amp that Rob is currently working on and I think only then will people with speaker setups fully understand what transparency means and what the DAVE is truly capable of.  I realize some will view this last statement as authoritative or arrogant but I don't know how else to get the point across.  Having heard how this sounds in my own speaker setup, it has made a very large difference.
  
 Now, just because this is a headphone forum doesn't mean that all of us here just use headphones and just because a review comes from WBF or elsewhere doesn't make that review any more relevant than a review that comes from Head-Fi.  On your post, you state on another extreme high-end community that the Trinity DAC "should trump" all other DACs but this appears to be a speculative comment than one based on actual comparisons.  I have followed the Trinity thread for a while now on WBF and for sure, there are many passionate Trinity followers there claiming some of the same things that are being claimed here but there are very few actual head to head comparisons, only speculative or anecdotal comments and actual listening experiences seem to come from audio shows which are not the best way to hear anything.  Not having heard the Trinity, I will refrain from comments except to say that a DAC based on a specific "off the shelf" chip will always be confined to the performance characterstics of that chip that even the most talented DAC designer cannot overcome whereas an FPGA DAC like a Chord DAVE or even a Nagra HD or dCS Vivaldi is limited only by the creativity and skill of the designer and the limitations of the FPGA which have recently taken a monumental step forward.
  
 Since it doesn't appear you have much respect for headphone setups, here is one that you might appreciate.  It compares the Chord DAVE against the Nagra HD and the dCS Vivaldi and the comparison is made on a high-end speaker setup:
  

  
 An Aurender W20 ($17.6k) is used as the music server and output is through a Synergistic Research Galileo USB cable ($2k).  The dCS Vivaldi ($36k) has the latest firmware update and is coupled with the Vivaldi Upsampler Plus ($22k) and Vivaldi Master Clock ($15k).  Mains cables and line conditioning are provided by Shunyata and High Fidelity Cables.
  

  
 The Nagra HD is the new and improved version which includes their newest coupling condenser, latest generation of DSP processing and their new DC cabling.  While I would have preferred to go DAC to amp direct, the dealer preferred to use their Spectral DMC-30SV Reference Preamplifier ($14k) and so that is what we used.
  

  
 Speakers used were a pair of Wilson Sasha 2 multi-driver speakers ($30k) augmented by a pair of JL Audio Fathom F113V2 subwoofers ($4.5k each).  Amplifier used was the Spectral DMA-300 Stereo Reference ($20k).  All cabling is Transparent Gen 5 Ultra.  As you can see, the room has been treated.  How would I rate the sound of the room setup?  Very well balanced.
  
 Despite any biases that we as humans share, as with all comparisons, I always try and keep an open and objective mind and it is this same mindset that allowed me to appreciate that the TotalDac was better than my Bricasti and that the DAVE was better than my TotalDac even though deep down, we probably all want what we already have to be better.  If I had subscribed to the logic that more expensive must be better, then there really would have been no point to this exercise.  I should just write a check for the dCS and call it the day but I have never subscribed to that logic.  I think giant slayers are much more common than you think, you just have to carefully listen and compare.  As @Jawed stated, there are inexpensive DACs today (Mojo would be a good example) that are easly as good or better than the best DACs of yesteryear.  
  
 As for the assessment of transparency, I would agree with @Zare.  How do you know a piece of equipment is truly transparent unless you were at the actual performance?  As I have detailed in the past, I have my own high quality (16/44 and 24/192 PCM) 2-mic recordings that were made either in my home or at our local performance venue where I was present at the performance and I know exactly how these performances should sound.  I generally use some of these recordings in my comparisons but in my haste to get to this dealership on time, I left that USB memory stick at home and so I was limited to other recordings.  People who know me know that I have a preference for unamplified acoustical recordings.  I also believe they are much more challenging for DACs to faithfully reproduce and so 2/3 tracks I chose are these kinds of recordings.  These were the recordings that were used and I know them well:
  
 1.  Magnificat, Trondheim Solistene (24/352.8 PCM), track 10 (Songs of the Universal)
 2.  Allegri Miserere, The Tallis Scholars (24/96 PCM), track 1 (Miserere mel Deus)
 3.  Hunter, Morgan James (16/44 PCM), track 1 (Call My Name)
  
*Nagra HD DAC + MPS *($25k)
 First of all, each of the DACs in this comparison are FPGA DACs although by no means do they sound anywhere the same.  At this level of equipment, I expected each DAC to sound wonderful in their own right and the Nagra HD was no exception.  This DAC upsamples PCM to 2x DSD and so that characteristic softness of DSD was readily evident.  With its tube output stage, there is an evident harmonic that is very pleasing with vocals.  I expected it to sound a touch warm but it was actually quite neutral.  This DAC had very good dimensionality with nice apparent air and depth.  It is also the more forgiving DAC.  The Hunter track was especially chosen because this track can sound bright and even a bit harsh in some systems and the Nagra rendered it beautifully.  This was the first DAC I listened to and in isolation, I thought it was wonderful in this particular system.
  
*dCS Vivaldi + upsampler + clock* ($73k)
 I listened to the Vivaldi second.  It was immediately more resolving than the Nagra.  Where the Nagra can be described as an easy listen and very emotive, the Vivaldi commands attenton as it is more forward sounding.  This is the imaging champ of the group.  If the upsampler is used to upsample to DXD, the sound has a mechanical precision to it that will not suit all tastes although if you choose to upsample to DSD, I suppose the outcome will be softer at the cost of resolution although I did not have a chance to try it.  Either way, the expensive upsampler gives the owner options. This reference room is the room where this DAC normally is kept and you could tell that the room was tailored for it.  It sounded magnificent in this system with wonderful tonal body and a commanding presence.  If I have a complaint, it is with the pinpoint imaging I heard when upsampled to DXD.  To me, it isn't natural to hear an instrument precisely in a certain location.  A true live sound is more diffuse.  The Vivaldi has different DSP filters and we played around with a couple of them and I could hear a slight change and so I suppose there is a setting that would sound more natural but this certainly comes down to personal preference.  The biggest complaint I have with the Vivaldi is that it sounds flat.  Not pancake flat but flatter than the Nagra and we couldn't improve it with the fitlers we listened to although we didn't listen to all of them.  Not such a big deal with the studio vocal but easily heard with the two acoustical tracks.
  
*Chord DAVE* ($13.3k)
 I listened to the DAVE last.  Once again, there was an immediate difference.  In a properly revealing system, I contend that you could easily blind test these three DACs.  Had I been able to test these DACs without the preamp, I suspect the differences might have even been greater.  The most immediate attribute I could hear was speed.  The DAVE is a very fast and agile DAC and upon inital comparison, some might consider the DAVE as thin sounding compared to the dCS but there is much more to it than this.  If the Vivaldi is George Foreman than the DAVE is Muhammad Ali.  "Float like a butterfly and sting like a bee."  Not that the DAVE can't hit hard because it can but where this quality matters is with dynamic contrasts as they seemed more pronounced with the DAVE.  The way it goes from loud to soft and soft to loud was simply better.  While violins en masse had more meat with the Vivaldi, with the DAVE they had more control.  Where the Vivaldi has this more robust tonal body which can be very appealing, I figured out toward the end of our session after back and forth listening that this is because the Vivaldi coalesces details together.  This became especially evident on the Magnificat track.  With the DAVE, you could tell many violins were playing at once and since performers can never be in perfect synch, you can hear subtle differences in timing.  When I attend the symphony, I routinely hear this and am accepting of it.  With the Vivaldi, it appeared as if all the performers were in perfect synch as all you could hear was this single solid harmonic tone and while this is pleasant to hear, I found it to be inaccurate.  The DAVE simply finesses and layers details better than the others.  As far as depth, the DAVE _easily_ presented the best depth of the three. If I had a quibble with the DAVE compared to the Vivaldi, I wished the DAVE had a bit more focus.  For studio vocal tracks, I could see the appeal but I suspect with aftermarket software DSP, this focus can be achieved.
  
 Once again, these are not absolute statements of fact, only one person's opinion of how these DACs compared in this high end setup.  To be honest, I could see myself owning either of these DACs and finding endless hours of enjoyment but if there is one DAC that retrieves details better and presents them in proper timing better, it is the DAVE.  As for musicality, that is always a subjective quality and I suspect there are some that will prefer any one of these DACs to the other two but as far as my sensibilties go, I prefer the DAC that provides me the most information and that is the DAVE.


----------



## ValeryPaul

Crazy headfiers...My gun is bigger than yours. I just started this new hobby...I guess I will not come back.


----------



## Deftone

another great post romaz


----------



## hrq12345

romaz said:


> This is an interesting post and contains lots of points to debate.
> 
> It seems you have an issue with the DAVE because it doesn't cost more and that you subscribe to the logic that price is the primary determiner of quality.  I think this logic makes sense provided that the cost of a DAC truly went into a specific design that made a difference and not just into the pocket of the DAC company.  I spoke to an employee of a certain DAC company over the summer whom I shall not name.  They make a "made to order" DAC that fully configured tops out at $180,000 USD and they are content if they only sell 1-2 per year.  They make this DAC so that they can have a statement piece to help sell their less expensive DACs (about $30k).  In the view of this company, this statement DAC helps elevate their brand.  The interesting thing, according to this employee, is that while this statement DAC includes better and much more expensive components, it doesn't really sound much better than their standard DAC, at least this is this person's opinion.  Why they charge so much is because they cater primarily to a certain part of the world that would never look at their products unless they charge more and so that's what they do.  According to this person, this culture looks primarily at cost as a measure of quality and so this person readily admits that they have a very high-profit margin with each of their DACs in this part of the world because that's the only way they can sell them.  Now I haven't listened to their $180k DAC because it's not a DAC they have lying around but I did hear their more standard DAC ($30k) on their speakers in their own factory and was able to compare it to my DAVE and I can tell you the DAVE was better as far as detail retrieval, time resolution, musicality and all the other factors that matter to me.
> 
> ...


 
 I heard a similar setup with DCS Vivaldi yesterday. It was simply amazing. But it was a shame that dave wasn't there. For the flat sound of Vivaldi, it could be due to the upsampler, which upgrade any music file into DSD. The setup I heard was also using the Aurender music server, which I found a bit forward and bright when compared with other music servers. The one I heard is N10, not W20 though.


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## hieukm

romaz said:


> This is an interesting post and contains lots of points to debate.


 
  
 Thank you for your very informative post as always Romaz. I highly respect your opinions and passion. We have difference on perspective and that is to be discussed as following:
  
 - I don't have issue with the Dave being cost less. Actually I think Chord priced their product correctly. I think Chord priced their Dave based on performance compared to market level rather than simple mark up from BOM. That's the reason why i mentioned there are opinions that the Dave is held equally to Berkeley Ref 2(MSRP around 16.5k IIRC) as in Audioshark forum and Berkeley Ref 1 in your friend Audiobacon review. 
 - In my opinion, when it comes to big brand name company with huge distribution channel such as (MSB, DCS, Estoric), their price mark up should be much higher than smaller boutique company such as Total, Lampizator, Trinity. I would think that Chord Audio belong to second type. So Dave can compete with much higher priced DAC from DCS, MSB; however, it would be difficult for Dave to beat a DAC from the latter type at 1-3 ratio. Anyway, it is my general opinion as i cant test all DAC. Case by case can vary as per testing.
 - Relating to Trinity DAC comparison to other world class DAC, i have read actual comparisons but i refrain to name such community(not WBF) here to avoid disturbance to their privacy. If you want to know more about this, please drop me a PM. 
 - So in conclusion, i think Dave is an excellent DAC that can compete (but not beat) with the best. But it does have weaknesses such as thin sounding and not as deep sound stage as i have try to demonstrated in this post. ("Go to the video in this link(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2AJeC7R_no) and go to 8:44. Listen the test song that the couple use to test the speaker. Afterwards, listen to the same song in your system. The name of the song is Zigeunerweisen, Op. 20, No. 1 by "Pablo de Sarasate, Lara St. John, Ilan Rechtman". The same cut start from 6:22 into the song. You can search using Tidal/other streaming service. ​")
 - Further, it is still far from the ultimate performance of vinyl and tape. I sincerely hope that Mr. Rob Watts can push out Dave 2 with 1 "billion taps" in the next 3-5 years so digital can finally compete with analogue for once.


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## Mavwong

Romaz again shows that you got my upmost respect in any forum I been through.
  
 I personally did not find your post/posts any problem as myself is a total neutral consumer who spend a fortune on hifi stuff, in fact I feel grateful with his inside as we share similar preference and taste in music.
  
 In case anyone doubt any connection with Romaz or Chord, nope, I am just a small hifi fan in Singapore. My system is in this post: http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=124223.msg1167727#msg1167727
  
  
 Mav
  
 Quote:


romaz said:


> I would like to acknowledge that my Voxativ post revealing details of a conversation that Holger Adler had with me was ill-conceived and disruptive to this fine thread.  While I indicated that my intentions were not malicious, in hindsight, they undoubtedly cast a negative light on both TotalDac and Voxativ that neither deserved.  I have privately apologized to both Holger and Vincent, two people I respect greatly.  I believe Vincent and I are on good terms again.  I have great respect for Vincent and I wish him and TotalDac nothing but success.  No party has asked me to retract my damaging post, I did so voluntarily.  A copy of my post remains on @Sonic77's post (post #5066).  I have asked the moderator to remove the portion of his post that contains my quote.  Thus far, it hasn't happened and so Sonic, I would appreciate it if you would do so.  I appreciate the kind sentiment on my behalf.  Thank you.
> 
> I would also like to apologize to Chord, Rob, John and this thread for the disruption that my post caused.  It seems to have steered this thread into somewhat of a mean-spirited direction for a while which is unfortunate and for my part in it, I apologize.  Undoubtedly, people tune in to glean Rob's wisdom and he has been incredibly generous in sharing it.  Hopefully, it will steer in that direction once again.


----------



## Mavwong

I don't own a top quality CDP. But I suggest give microrendu (need a good PS, no I don't mean ifi ps that was sold with urendu) a try if you ever consider wanted to sit back and let finger do the disk changing like me.
  
  
  
 Quote:


daveredref-iii said:


> I would like to seek your advice/opinions on streaming red book as opposed to top quality CD disc players. I currently listen exclusively to CD played through a Red Reference III digitally linked to Dave. My question is, have any of you guys compared top quality CD replay against a streaming setup playing red book from a solid hard disk into Dave via USB?
> 
> Tia


----------



## Rob Watts

hieukm said:


> - Further, it is still far from the ultimate performance of vinyl and tape. I sincerely hope that Mr. Rob Watts can push out Dave 2 with 1 "billion taps" in the next 3-5 years so digital can finally compete with analogue for once.


 
  
 A common theme that emerges from people that are critical of my DAC's is that they do not sound like analogue.
  
 Good.
  
 I do not want to make my DAC's sound like analogue. Some people are wedded to the notion that analogue (vinyl or master tape) is the holly grail, and that things should sound that way.
  
 My answer is simple - go listen to live un-amplified music.
  
 It sounds nothing like analogue.
  
 But for sure we can agree on one thing - listening to my systems and comparing it to the sound of live un-amplified music, and although I have made great progress over the past few years, we have a long way to go. That's why I am working on Davina, so that I can attempt to close that gap. That's why I am constantly striving for better performance.
  
 And I consider my self to be privileged and very fortunate to be able to do so.
  
 Rob


----------



## tkteo

rob watts said:


> My answer is simple - go listen to live un-amplified music.


 
  
 Amen to this.


----------



## EVOLVIST

doctormario said:


> Crazy headfiers...My gun is bigger than yours. I just started this new hobby...I guess I will not come back.




Don't be discouraged. Please. There are so many viewpoints that as long as you feel that you're view is right, the sound will come to you, without effort, without sweat.

I've come to realize that I've been overanalyzing the hell out of my setup. I'm almost done. It's time to enjoy the music. Too much typing keeps me away from the sound.


----------



## Mojo ideas

romaz said:


> This is an interesting post and contains lots of points to debate.
> 
> It seems you have an issue with the DAVE because it doesn't cost more and that you subscribe to the logic that price is the primary determiner of quality.  I think this logic makes sense provided that the cost of a DAC truly went into a specific design that made a difference and not just into the pocket of the DAC company.  I spoke to an employee of a certain DAC company over the summer whom I shall not name.  They make a "made to order" DAC that fully configured tops out at $180,000 USD and they are content if they only sell 1-2 per year.  They make this DAC so that they can have a statement piece to help sell their less expensive DACs (about $30k).  In the view of this company, this statement DAC helps elevate their brand.  The interesting thing, according to this employee, is that while this statement DAC includes better and much more expensive components, it doesn't really sound much better than their standard DAC, at least this is this person's opinion.  Why they charge so much is because they cater primarily to a certain part of the world that would never look at their products unless they charge more and so that's what they do.  According to this person, this culture looks primarily at cost as a measure of quality and so this person readily admits that they have a very high-profit margin with each of their DACs in this part of the world because that's the only way they can sell them.  Now I haven't listened to their $180k DAC because it's not a DAC they have lying around but I did hear their more standard DAC ($30k) on their speakers in their own factory and was able to compare it to my DAVE and I can tell you the DAVE was better as far as detail retrieval, time resolution, musicality and all the other factors that matter to me.
> 
> ...


 Each designer must follow his own path within the bounds of his knollege of course some may have wonder why we have not included a word clock input on Dave for instance. I think I can explain with this analogy. A man goes into a clock maker to buy a clock the old man making the clock says "this clock is extreamly accurate over twenty four hours. It's within a tenth of a second" but the customer says "why is the clock ticking in such an irregular fashion and why is is not telling it's five minutes past when it should be! 0h the clock maker said yes "Well it's all over the place until it's run for twenty four hours but it always hits the right time then " the clock maker said " Ah! you see it has a rubidium crystal inside that makes is extremely accurate." The customer said "But I want the clock to time my egg boiling". Oh said the clock maker" This clock would be hopeless for that purpose it's so irregular you see."
That about sums up Robs view on rubidium clocks they are so damn jittery that by the time they have been buffered and the clock sent down a cable they do nothing but harm to the transparency still quite a few like a harder quality to their music especially to counteract the softening that DSD brings to the party hence the popularity of rubidium clocks in Japan is due in part to the prevalence of DSD music but two wrongs don't really make a right.


----------



## pkcpga

rob watts said:


> A common theme that emerges from people that are critical of my DAC's is that they do not sound like analogue.
> 
> Good.
> 
> ...




I couldn't agree more, I never could understand the love of vinyl or tape or the hiss and extreme care it comes with. For myself vinyl sounds nothing like live music, it has no edge or life. But my father loves vinyl, I guess it's what he grew up with.


----------



## EVOLVIST

pkcpga said:


> I couldn't agree more, I never could understand the love of vinyl or tape or the hiss and extreme care it comes with. For myself vinyl sounds nothing like live music, it has no edge or life. But my father loves vinyl, I guess it's what he grew up with.




"All the magic happens in the tape hiss." ~ Neil Young.


----------



## pkcpga

evolvist said:


> "All the magic happens in the tape hiss." ~ Neil Young.




Very old quote and not what he's peddling these days with the release of his pono hf player.


----------



## EVOLVIST

pkcpga said:


> Very old quote and not what he's peddling these days with the release of his pono hf player.


 
  
 Well, short of ol' Neil sending out reel-to-reel dubs of his album, it sort of _is_ what he's harking with the Pono player, i.e. digital remasters of his own recordings, first and foremost (being that most of them were recorded well to start with), in the purest manner that's available to us these days in a digital world. It might be digital, yet that "analogue" feel is tied to format, where the music lives.
  
 My point is, much like @Rob Watts stated earlier that "Sound Quality does not matter," is that even the perception of tape saturation, if that's your thing, still thrives with the DAVE. Now, if you just can't stand tape hiss, which is a natural byproduct of that medium, I'm not saying that you're missing out; I'm only saying that the hiss, itself, can add a certain quaintness to the music if it hasn't been overtly sterilized by digital means. It's a trick of the brain, really, for those of us who grew up with tape hiss, that even if it's debatable that the digitized hiss doesn't impart some magical "analog" vibe, I content that your brain still associates the hiss with "analogue," thus you hear "analogue." And it is the Chord DAVE that is able to work best with the subtle cues within your brain  to bring out the best in your listening experience.
  
 Does that make sense, or am I rambling?


----------



## Ampus

Hifi is supposed to be fun. Since the forum mode seems a little gloomy lately, hopefully this will loosen most people up. 
Disclaimer: This post is based on John Frank's most recent post.

A bartender rushed into a local tavern and yelled at the bartender "Vincent, what time is it? Give me a liter of Kronenbough 1664 and make it snappy since I have to catch a plane in 30 minutes. By the way, what did you do to your Juke Box? I have never heard one sounding that good in my life!"

The bartender replied "My name is not Vincent mate. I am John and damn if I know what time it is! Don't you see the Chord DAVE on top of my Juke Box! We at Chord don't believe in clocks."


----------



## ecwl

ampus said:


> Hifi is supposed to be fun. Since the forum mode seems a little gloomy lately, hopefully this will loosen most people up.
> Disclaimer: This post is based on John Frank's most recent post.
> 
> A bartender rushed into a local tavern and yelled at the bartender "Vincent, what time is it? Give me a liter of Kronenbough 1664 and make it snappy since I have to catch a plane in 30 minutes. By the way, what did you do to your Juke Box? I have never heard one sounding that good in my life!"
> ...


 

 This just really cracks me up after a long work day. Even though it seems to miss the point. Still super hilarious to me. Not sure why.
  
 My simplistic interpretation of what Rob Watts and John Franks have been saying is this. If you build a DAC (Pulse Array + other design aspects) that is innately significantly more immune to jitter than any other DAC designs, a great clock that's good enough would be perfect. If you build a DAC that is innately more susceptible to jitter, you may try to get some sort of super clock to minimize the jitter. However, since you're not sure what you're doing, at some point, your super duper clock is not really helping with jitter and is just injecting noise into the system and altering the sound that you may think is better.
  
 With all that said, still a hilarious joke.


----------



## Beolab

ecwl said:


> This just really cracks me up after a long work day. Even though it seems to miss the point. Still super hilarious to me. Not sure why.
> 
> My simplistic interpretation of what Rob Watts and John Franks have been saying is this. If you build a DAC (Pulse Array + other design aspects) that is innately significantly more immune to jitter than any other DAC designs, a great clock that's good enough would be perfect. If you build a DAC that is innately more susceptible to jitter, you may try to get some sort of super clock to minimize the jitter. However, since you're not sure what you're doing, at some point, your super duper clock is not really helping with jitter and is just injecting noise into the system and altering the sound that you may think is better.
> 
> With all that said, still a hilarious joke.




I buy all of this, but why aren't the DAVE then miles better than the dcs Vivaldi / Nagra HD or even the Select II who are using jittery super clocks then, it is just a subtle difference and down to a matter of taste is what Roy concluded for example? 

Is it because of the weak recordings that cant show of DAVEs full potential maybe, or how can the "poor-knowledge-ultra-expensive heavy-jittery-dac's" sound so close to DAVE then? In my book they should have sounded much worse, or does DAVE also got a small hidden secret bottleneck in the design that you struggle with to make it fully bloom out properly Rob?


----------



## Crgreen

Nothing sounds like live unamplified music. The gap can never be closed. In which case, in the spirit of genuine enquiry: what should we be listening for? It's a question I've asked myself many times to which I've never found a satisfactory answer, other than that the music connects with me to an extent that I don't mind the gap.


----------



## Beolab

Here is one of the coolest 3D tracks with depth perspective i have heard that is playing very nice on my Abyss headphones + DAVE combo  

https://tidal.com/album/58755893


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## EVOLVIST

crgreen said:


> Nothing sounds like live unamplified music. The gap can never be closed. In which case, in the spirit of genuine enquiry: what should we be listening for? It's a question I've asked myself many times to which I've never found a satisfactory answer, other than that the music connects with me to an extent that I don't mind the gap.




You don't consciously listen for anything. You just let it come. 

Like the other day I was listening to, of all things, Metallica's "Battery" off of Master of Puppets. I knew that the rhythm guitars were layered several times over, but I wasn't listening for anything in particular. All of a sudden I start noticing this depth to the guitars, as if one or a few guitars has a different mic'ing which gave depth to the image that I think I would have only gotten with DAVE. 

Or, there's a couple of Mozart pieces that he wrote for this odd mechanical organ. I just wanted to hear the piece, because I had not heard it in so long. But what immediately jumped out to me was the apparent distance the mics were away from the organ. I have no idea why they didn't record this organ closer; nevertheless, the sound just hung there, through headphones, like somebody holding an image 5ft in front of your face, but you don't have your glasses on. It was pretty ghostly, and that's totally without searching for ghosts.


----------



## esimms86

ampus said:


> Hifi is supposed to be fun. Since the forum mode seems a little gloomy lately, hopefully this will loosen most people up.
> Disclaimer: This post is based on John Frank's most recent post.
> 
> A bartender rushed into a local tavern and yelled at the bartender "Vincent, what time is it? Give me a liter of Kronenbough 1664 and make it snappy since I have to catch a plane in 30 minutes. By the way, what did you do to your Juke Box? I have never heard one sounding that good in my life!"
> ...


 

 A pint lover's dream: a tavern with 164,000 taps.


----------



## jlbrach

Well,tomorrow my Dave should arrive.I have both the LCD-4 and the Utopia's.....the big question as far as i am concerned is whether or not i will be able to drive my LCD-4's with the Dave or will i need to use my Moon neo 430?......I am currently using the TT and i have absolutely no problem direct to the TT with the Utopia but the LCD-4 is a bit of a struggle....I do hope the Dave is a step up in terms of driving the LCD-4


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## bigfatpaulie

jlbrach said:


> Well,tomorrow my Dave should arrive.I have both the LCD-4 and the Utopia's.....the big question as far as i am concerned is whether or not i will be able to drive my LCD-4's with the Dave or will i need to use my Moon neo 430?......I am currently using the TT and i have absolutely no problem direct to the TT with the Utopia but the LCD-4 is a bit of a struggle....I do hope the Dave is a step up in terms of driving the LCD-4


 
  
 From my experience the DAVE handles them extremely well - an additional amp isn't needed.  It will, however, add it's own signature (ie distortion) which may be what you want.


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## jlbrach

given my best case would rather listen direct from the Dave without the Moon 430..that is assuming it can drive the LCD-4...i know it will drive the Utopia without issue....are there any LCD-4 owners out there using it with the Dave?


----------



## jelt2359

bigfatpaulie said:


> From my experience the DAVE handles them extremely well - an additional amp isn't needed.  It will, however, add it's own signature (ie distortion) which may be what you want.




When that distortion is on the level of the Stellaris... yes! I want!


----------



## Beolab

jlbrach said:


> Well,tomorrow my Dave should arrive.I have both the LCD-4 and the Utopia's.....the big question as far as i am concerned is whether or not i will be able to drive my LCD-4's with the Dave or will i need to use my Moon neo 430?......I am currently using the TT and i have absolutely no problem direct to the TT with the Utopia but the LCD-4 is a bit of a struggle....I do hope the Dave is a step up in terms of driving the LCD-4




No problem at all, you can drive the 
LCD-4 200Ω version to immense levels, and the headphones and your eardrums will collapse before DAVE starting to break a sweat @ +3db vol. 

(The DAVE got almost twice the power over your TT)


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## jlbrach

that is very good to hear,i am pleased...i look forward to giving them a workout tomorrow when the dave arrives


----------



## bigfatpaulie

jelt2359 said:


> When that distortion is on the level of the Stellaris... yes! I want!


 
  
  
 "Stellairs"  Sounds SUPER rare.  I'm not sure if anyone has one.


----------



## tkteo

crgreen said:


> Nothing sounds like live unamplified music. The gap can never be closed. In which case, in the spirit of genuine enquiry: what should we be listening for? It's a question I've asked myself many times to which I've never found a satisfactory answer, other than that the music connects with me to an extent that I don't mind the gap.


 
  
 As "Evolvist" stated -- amen to that -- "you just let it come."
  
 I love live un-amped music for the atmosphere, the feeling of being there. No need to make arguments about how changing one cable versus another changes the "soundstage" and blah blah about widening the soundstage, as if all stages are supposed to be wide in real life?!. At a live performance, YOU ARE IN THE soundstage.


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> ecwl said:
> 
> 
> > This just really cracks me up after a long work day. Even though it seems to miss the point. Still super hilarious to me. Not sure why.
> ...


 
  
 To me it's absolutely not a subtle difference but night and day and I get perplexed that people can't hear it as vast differences. I listened to a well regarded DAC (not one that is mentioned in the quote) on my headphones using recordings I knew and it sounded absolutely awful. If i were to score it, I would give it a negative number - and by that I would prefer to listen to nothing at all and re-run my music in my head than listen to the awful noise it reproduced.
  
 So why can't others hear the same? Am I super sensitive or OCD? Or is this just simply my own ultra confirmation bias? 
  
 Or is it other peoples gear and their systems are not capable of resolving it? I know there are some headphones that people rave about, and I hear them and think ouch that's actually unpleasant.
  
 I guess that we all have differing sensitivities and like and dislikes - and we need to have the humility to recognise that our likes and dislikes change - and for sure it would be pretty boring if everybody had the same opinions.
  
 Rob


----------



## romaz

crgreen said:


> Nothing sounds like live unamplified music. The gap can never be closed. In which case, in the spirit of genuine enquiry: what should we be listening for? It's a question I've asked myself many times to which I've never found a satisfactory answer, other than that the music connects with me to an extent that I don't mind the gap.


 
  
 I fully agree that nothing sounds like live unamplified music and while the gap can never be fully closed, it can be approached much further than it is now.  In the end, whether it be live unamplified music or a facsimile of it, as you've stated, it is that emotional connection that I believe we each seek.  
  


beolab said:


> I buy all of this, but why aren't the DAVE then miles better than the dcs Vivaldi / Nagra HD or even the Select II who are using jittery super clocks then, it is just a subtle difference and down to a matter of taste is what Roy concluded for example?
> 
> Is it because of the weak recordings that cant show of DAVEs full potential maybe, or how can the "poor-knowledge-ultra-expensive heavy-jittery-dac's" sound so close to DAVE then? In my book they should have sounded much worse, or does DAVE also got a small hidden secret bottleneck in the design that you struggle with to make it fully bloom out properly Rob?


 
  
 Thank you, Fredrik.  I was hoping someone would bring this up.  I have repeatedly alluded to Chord's upcoming digital amps but I believe it will be the combination of these amps and DAVINA that will more fully show us what the DAVE is capable of.  The onus will now be on Rob to deliver and I have full confidence he will but I believe these two components will erase all doubts about where the DAVE stands compared to the rest.  
  
 Until recently, I, too, have wondered what DAVE's ultra-low noise floor, lack of noise floor modulation, small signal linearity, almost unmeasurable distortion levels, etc. all means if other DACs can approach the DAVE's performance with their supposedly flawed designs but over the past couple of months and again this past weekend, I have had three very revelatory experiences that have changed my perspective on everything. 
  
 (1)  As some of you know, a couple of months ago, I compared a variety of interconnects that differed in terms of metallurgy using my DAVE and my Abyss/HE-1000.  It ranged from UP-OCC grade copper (the purest copper that is commercially available in the world today and is 99.9999% pure) to UP-OCC grade silver to an alloy consisting of OCC Silver/Gold and eventually to one of High Fidelity Cable's entry level interconnects (CT-1E).  As I moved from copper to silver to the HFC interconnect, it was very clear that resolution (meaning detail retrieval) improved.  The only thing that the silver/gold alloy seemed to add was greater tonal body and a more natural sounding timbre but resolution-wise, it appeared equivalent to UP-OCC silver in terms of resolution.  Short of the HFC interconnect, I would go for the OCC Silver/Gold alloy.  Given the choice, however, I would go with the HFC interconnect every time.  The point is that whatever you use to connect your DAVE to your amp will have a *significant* influence on resolution and thereby transparency but it shouldn't require any stretch of the imagination to understand that even the best interconnect in the world can never be completely transparent.  Just like no preamp will always be more transparent than any preamp, the same thing goes for interconnects.
  
 (2)  Last month, many of you recall that I compared a very high-quality class D amplifier against a First Watt J2 class A JFET amplifier by Nelson Pass against the DAVE *directly *driving my ALNICO monitors.  As part of this comparison, I also introduced a tube buffer with a variable bias that allowed me to vary the impact of the tube from 0% (complete bypass) to 100%.  With the tube in full effect, there was this nice warm colorful bloom, a sound I have been familiar with for years that was indeed very pleasant and for certain poorly-recorded tracks, I actually preferred it.  In the absence of any comparison, it actually sounded very transparent as if the artists were in the room as they say.  As I gradually reduced the effect of the tube, it was very interesting to see how this colorful bloom was replaced by clarity and depth and I realized that what I thought was transparent wasn't so transparent after all.  As I went from the class D amp to the First Watt J2, it was very evident that Nelson Pass knows how to build amplifiers as the improved refinement was nothing short of breathtaking.  Given the switching properties of class D amps, moving up to the class A First Watt J2 also resulted in a very noticeable improvement in transparency.  As I fully bypassed the tube buffer (ie preamp) and switched from the class D amp to the First Watt J2, the improvement in transparency was so significant that I was thinking there was no way I could top this and that this was as transparent as things could get for my system.  This is what I meant in a previous post when I said that we all think our systems are transparent until we hear that next "something" that is even more transparent and I believe there will always be that next "something" until you actually find yourself seated in the concert hall.  In my case, that next "something" happened to be DAVE driving my speakers _*directly*_.  This change has been so significant that paired with my upper-end High Fidelity Cables speaker cables, I have yet to hear a more transparent sounding headphone or speaker setup.  Imagine a class A speaker amp that requires no transparency-robbing interconnects, a noise floor of -180dB with no noise floor modulation, almost unmeasurable distortion levels and the full speed, linearity, dynamic range and bandwidth of the original DAC signal and you begin to understand why this might fully change the landscape of 2-channel speaker listening.  My comparison of my DAVE against the dCS Vivaldi and Nagra HD took place weeks ago and nothing I heard that night or at RMAF this past weekend has matched the detail retrieval I am getting with my DAVE directly driving my monitors.  If you think you have a transparent speaker system now, just wait until next year.  I believe you will be forced to recalibrate in your brain what transparency from an audio system means.
  
 Now some will say that DAVE directly driving my monitors shouldn't be that different than DAVE directly driving headphones.  I even recall Fredrik suggesting that his Simaudio amp is maybe only 5% less transparent than DAVE directly driving his Abyss but what I'm hearing is well beyond that.  As I mentioned in a previous post, with the appropriate recording, depth is conservatively 20% better than the First Watt J2 and detail retrieval with these ALNICO monitors is superior to _any_ headphone I currently own.  I believe the shortcoming of headphone listening is the headphones themselves and their relatively infant technology but I do believe things will continue to improve.  First of all, as has been mentioned recently, headphones are limited in their abilities to fully reveal the performance of a DAC and I agree with this.  While headphones can be better with regards to resolving detail, they can never fully compete with speakers with regards to resolving time.  Not just depth from the standpoint of knowing that the brass section is seated 5 meters behind the woodwinds but even the reverberant sound field of the strumming of a guitar is better appreciated with speakers.  With headphones, there's just too short of a space for certain sounds to fully unfold.  The second problem is with headphone technology and the paucity of truly high-end headphones.  Of course, high-end headphones haven't been around anywhere as long as high-end speakers and so it is to be expected headphone technology needs time to catch up and that we would have fewer choices when it comes to state of the art headphones but it sure would be great if there was a headphone that had the detail resolution of a Utopia, the air and musicality of an HE-1000, the clarity of an SR-009, the midrange of an LCD-4, the bass of the TH-900, the soundstage of an HD800 and the imaging of the Abyss.  While I love the headphones that I have, oh how I wish that they could move me as much as my ALNICOs.
  
 (3)  This past weekend, while at RMAF, I paid the MQA rooms a visit.  I have seen these demonstrations before and have had mixed emotions.  This time was different.  While at the Aurender room, they were demonstrating their new A20 music server with built-in DAC.  This latest Aurender has an MQA decoder built-in and I got to hear a track by Adele with both MQA decoding turned off then on.  My impression?  Ho hum.  Maybe a little improvement but I had to struggle to hear it.  On to the Mytek Brooklyn DAC and while it was better, at no time did I feel like ditching my DAVE and buying a Mytek.  
  
 Then I went to this room:
  

  
 That's right, all MSB DACs are now MQA-capable including their Select II.  During a conversation with an MQA rep at CES back in January, I was told that MQA works by taking advantage of the oversampling capabilities of a DAC to remove pre- and post-echo.  For those not aware of what this results in, it is supposed to lead to time smearing and so its elimination is supposed to improve clarity, timing fidelity, and depth and consequently result in less listening fatigue.  Back in January, I recall being told that DACs that could oversample to very high levels had the potential to perform better than DACs that couldn't oversample much at all and so this technology was not well suited for R2R DACs.  I'm not sure if things changed or else I misunderstood but this is no longer how MQA apparently works.  All a DAC needs now is an MQA decoder to feed the DAC a decoded signal that has been optimized for the performance characteristics of that DAC but that oversampling had nothing to do with it and I was told by Bob Stuart that this technology should be compatible with all DACs.  Fortunately, Rob himself has suggested that this should be possible with Chord DACs but the question is whether it really results in a worthwhile improvement.  As I stated, with the Aurender A10 and the Mytek Brooklyn, for me, it was a noticeable improvement but it wasn't anywhere close to what I was already hearing at home with my DAVE.  With the MSB Select II, however, it was quite a different story.  With a certain piano track, I was simply dumbfounded by what I heard and I believe the entire room was as well.  With MQA-enabled, the dimensionality of the sound, especially the depth rose to another level.  Details were clearer with noticeably less smearing.  With MQA off, this DAC sounded very pedestrian by comparison and I have never found the Select II to sound pedestrian in the past.  The point of this is that it is clear there is much to be gained by overcoming the limitations of current ADCs.  While MQA is more of a patch that addresses some shortcomings, I see DAVINA as the bigger potential game changer as it is supposed to have the full performance characteristics of the DAVE with regards to noise floor, lack of noise floor modulation, DR, etc.  If the promise of DAVINA proves to be real and in theory, it should easily improve upon what MQA provides, while all will benefit, those with a DAVE should benefit the most.
  
 This is why I believe 2017 will be such a landmark year for audiophiles but especially speaker audiophiles.  In addition to whatever else Rob might have up his sleeve, if my experience with my DAVE directly driving my speakers is any indication of what is to come, I can only imagine what impact both DAVINA and Chord's digital amps will provide and I believe only then will we know what DAVE can _really_ do.


----------



## Kamil21

@romaz, thanks for putting up your thoughts. 

1) What is the rated sensitivity of your alnico loudspeakers?

2) Were they connected directly to the headphone outputs or other output on the Dave? 

3) Was the volume adequate for musical enjoyment? A poor man's super desktop system maybe?


----------



## x RELIC x

kamil21 said:


> @romaz, thanks for putting up your thoughts.
> 
> 1) What is the rated sensitivity of your alnico loudspeakers?
> 
> ...




Roy shared his setup in detail in this post:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/4815#post_12874117


----------



## romaz

kamil21 said:


> @romaz, thanks for putting up your thoughts.
> 
> 1) What is the rated sensitivity of your alnico loudspeakers?
> 
> ...


 
 1)  Rated at 95dB but it feels like much higher than this.  I use a custom version of these Omega Alnico monitors:  http://omegaloudspeakers.com/superalnicomonit.html with this exact same finish. Not too expensive at about $2k.  They incorporate OCC silver/gold alloy wire internally and Furutech's best low mass binding posts.  They sit on a pair of Symposium Acoustics Svelte Plus platforms for isolation which then sit on a pair of IsoAcoustics Aperta stands to get the driver exactly to ear height.  
  
 2)  I designed my tube buffer to have a special "super" bypass mode with RCA in and speaker binding posts out.  I used Furutech's best connectors and UP-OCC grade Neotech solid core silver wiring to connect the two.  A pair of High Fidelity Cables CT-1 Reference RCA interconnects go from DAVE to the input of this box and a pair High Fidelity Cables CT-1 Ultimate speaker cables connect from the binding posts of the box and directly to my speakers. 
  
 3)  They cannot play my recordings to full scale but I can reach peaks of about 90dB using the DAVE's 2 watts which is very satisfactory for my type of listening in most cases.  It is the cleanest 2 watts you will ever see.  Combined with a very fast JL Audio Fathom F110V2 subwoofer, it is extremely satisfying.  In my home theater setup, which includes a pair of floor standing Sonus Faber Cremonas and a 400 watt Sunfire amp, I will occasionally bring my DAVE there and I enjoy it very much but this setup is considerably more resolving and also more satisfying.  While I would love more power and will hope to be first in line for Chord's 20-watt digital amp when it is released, this "poor man's super desktop system" (a very good descriptor) is the best system I have every owned, so good that I have removed all budgetary constraints to improve it.  I am now targeting HFC's best speaker cables for it.


----------



## 6RS

rob watts said:


> To me it's absolutely not a subtle difference but night and day and I get perplexed that people can't hear it as vast differences.
> 
> Rob


 
 I felt like relieved from a big stress when hearing the Hugo - finally that glare or whatever you might want to call it is gone. And I had a NOS Dac before. Rob's explanations and his research make total sense to me. The brain is relieved from all that compensatory calculations it engages to process sound emanating from poor digital.
 But to get this, one needs to relax while listening. Do not actively listen to every note, shut-off the audiophile critical listening mode. Just expose yourself to the music. Well, at least it works for me.


----------



## analogmusic

Really looking forward to the first recordings from DAVINA........ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Listening to Metallica (Black album) - on Mojo, amazing !!!!!


----------



## x RELIC x

analogmusic said:


> *Really looking forward to the first recordings from DAVINA*........
> 
> Listening to Metallica (Black album) - on Mojo, amazing !!!!!




Me too! Actually, I'm very interested in the test recordings Rob has mentioned he wants to use, some everyday things. I personally would REALLY want to listen to that on the DAVE. I hope Rob can share these. 




Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






rob watts said:


> I will be doing some initial recordings to mostly test for depth - I plan to have two prototypes, fed with the same mic feed, so I can change the internal configuration and see if noise shaper resolution is the same for DAC's and ADC's - they should be. So this will be natural sounds in my Welsh village - dogs barking, birds, etc. I will test for sounds that are several miles away to close up.
> 
> Also, it will be home recordings of guitar and a few other instruments, again with two units with differing internal settings - how else can one do AB testing with an ADC? The other issue is transient reproduction, timing and how this relates to decimation, which is currently very poorly done. I am currently thinking about the best way to consistently and reliably do this. Percussion comes to mind as the best way to do this.
> 
> ...


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

This question of "why is the difference not larger?" Is a good one because I think it has the healthy affect of getting us to focus on the weak links in our systems.

As Romaz reminds us, two significant new developments are not far away for Chord customers and like him I am really looking forward to hearing them. However, there are things we can do now which will enhance our listening experience in the meantime and at relatively little cost. The benefit comes from isolation.

I have always been an advocate of good isolation but on Head-fi and elsewhere I see many photos of Show setups and home setups with woefully inadequate isolation. It is clear to me that many people still do not think it is worth the effort. This includes some hifi designers too, who imo could easily improve their products with a simple understanding of isolation fundamentals. There are still speaker designers who put the feet directly under the speaker for instance. Maybe some audiophiles don't bother because a short while ago we were all still trying to hide the less desirable facets of digital sound, I don't know. The current crop SotA components though are often not shown in their best light due to a lack of sensible isolation. It is crazy to think (given the price of some components) that in some cases for £50 or less i could get the component to sound like the manufacturers next upgrade. 

There is more to isolation than just putting your amp on a wooden board or slab of granite. Every room has its weakness of design, every component has its own flaw when it comes to isolation. You just need to find the flaws and use some ingenuity. For instance my 300 year old house has floating timber floors and my hifi room has carpet. The weakness here is that not unsurprisingly the floor vibrates, which affects not just focus of my speakers but also creates key bass frequencies which resonate more than others. If I use spikes through the carpet the unwanted bass frequency resonates are still prevalent and the image focus is still compromised. If I get two slabs of granite and put the speakers on them the unwanted resonant bass frequencies are significantly reduced but the image focus is affected by a large granite base floating on a thick carpet. No matter how big and heavy the granite plinth, it still floats on a sea of carpet fibres and does not flatten the carpet sufficiently to improve focus (to my expectations at least.) So I needed the plinths to sit firm and the answer for me was 4 small spikes sited under the corners of each granite plinth (at small outlay). I chose small cone spikes in this case which were in two parts so I could use only the wider part of the cone (upside down) without the point. This meant the full weight pushed the cones down to the carpet backing and 'not through it' (to avoid direct contact with the floors vibrations) and there was almost no chance of a cone falling on its side due to an unwanted nudge of the plinth. I chose the biggest plinths I could find (500mm square) to reduce the effect of movement from vibration in the floor amplifying at the tweeter end of my speaker on a lateral basis. To explain this principle, if I have a 2 inch plate tilted at 1/64th inch the affects on a 4 feet tower sitting above it are far greater than 1/64th inch tilt on a 2 feet plate. Add to this the greater weight of my 500mm granite plinths and you can see that bigger is better for the purpose of both suppressing vibration and its amplified effects on the tweeter. Now if I focus on my amplifier I have a VertexAQ granite plinth sitting on 4 vibration absorbent pucks beneath the (Chord) amplifier which also sits on 4 vibration absorbent feet. One of the reasons Chord products are so well isolated from ground based vibration is that the design not only has soft shoes, those shoes are on aluminium feet which 'do not sit directly under the chassis'. In my experience this isolation principle provides the best form of isolation. Even Still Points use it on a micro scale. Another example is Sonus Faber speakers have metal struts which stick out from the base and then the spikes affix to the floor. This has two benefits. 1) the speaker vibrations are disapated along those struts horizontally before the go down to the floor and 2) it provides a wider stance so small vibrational tilts are reduced at the point of the tweeter some 4 feet above. Now as good as the Chord amp is designed for vertical vibration, like all components it is still susceptible to lateral vibration from sound waves (my right speaker is only 3 feet away) and the amp has a thin steel base plate affixed only at its edges which unfortunately acts like a Rolf Harris wobble board.  The top plate by comparison is brilliantly designed and affixed in regard to vibration and is beautiful to look at but fortunately both lateral vibribration and the base plate vibration can be sorted with a single solution. This is not so much isolation as 'anchoring'. I used a large VertexAQ spike sitting on 3 metal discs (for height) to 'just reach' the base plate. A Still Points would work also. I don't wish to lift the unit off the ground just reduce the vibration of the plate. In doing so this also provides enough 'anchoring' to meaningfully reduce lateral vibration. To put this simple solution into context, the improvement in focus and musicality gained from this simple solution on my system was so noticeable that, had it been achieved by another amp, I would have bought the other amp........ and yet I achieved this improvement with something I had lying around in my hifi room!

Now here is the real rub, my experience of Dave (in Regard to isolating my system components) is different than any other DAC that I have experienced to date. What I have found is that with every other DAC (owned or demo'd) over the years there comes a point at which isolation uncovers some undesirable facet to the sound. I would get to a certain point and then I had to 'back-off some' for the sake of a pleasant listening experience. However, with Dave I have yet to find that point, which to my mind is an indicator that there is probably more goodness still hidden yet. I think this partly explains why many audiophiles are not hearing as wide a difference between Dave and many of its competitors as Dave is capable of. I would encourage those here who haven't bothered to experiment more with isolation to give it some of your time and use some of your own ingenuity. I think you will find it rewarding on more than one level.


----------



## analogmusic

As Rob said, sound quality is not the main issue that separates his DACs from all the competition.
  
 It is musicality, whether the music sounds "stressed", robotic or mechanical, *and* whether one can hear *how* the musicians are playing, their intent, the power of the instruments and the mood/feeling of each musician as they play the music, (and for the vocalist, the feeling in the vocals).


----------



## ecwl

I have my personal opinions as to why many people fail to hear the superiority of Chord Mojo/DAVE over other DACs. I agree with Romaz that the equipments downstream that color the sound and reduce transparency is part of the problem. But I think despite what I also think is a huge difference between the sound quality of Chord Mojo/DAVE compared to other DACs, I think most people listen to recorded music differently and put priorities on other aspects than what I consider the more important ones.
  
 From watching what other audiophiles listen for, the first thing is often noise floor and then dynamics. And to them, dynamics is whether the music sounds exciting. After that, they often listen for details that they haven't heard before. And then afterwards they listen for soundstage. Rarely do they listen for timbre of the instruments and timing.
  
 The problem with listening for the things they listen for is that accuracy can be lost. What I mean is that music played by Chord DAVE is dynamic because of great low-level linearity (amplitude accuracy) and 256fs WTA upsampling (great timing). However, many people think non-Chord DACs are dynamic because noise floor modulation adds brightness to everything. So poor timing and noise floor modulation in non-Chord DACs often sounds as dynamic or even more dynamic to a lot of listeners as Chord DAVE. In fact, with musical passages that are not supposed to be dynamic, many listeners would find Chord DACs boring because of the absence of noise floor modulation to add that little bit of extra brightness.
  
 Similarly, when people listen for details that they haven't heard before when upgrading DACs, you can hear more musical details and greater instrument separation with Chord DAVE because of the great low-level linearity. However, many people think non-Chord DACs have better details because the noise floor modulation adds brightness and creates a sense of false details. They generally offer much less genuine instrumental separation (as Romaz pointed out when he was listening to a string section). Since people don't really know what's in the original recording or music and many people don't listen to music with many, many instruments because it is a challenge to both the listener and to audio equipments, they tend to ignore the inaccuracies in instrumental separation with their non-Chord DACs, but to make matters worse, they identify new details in the recording that is generated by the noise floor modulation's brightness so a smooth vocal that sounds smooth on Chord DACs are deemed inferior because they claim to hear more details (brightness) in the vocals of their non-Chord DACs.
  
 And then there is the aspect of soundstage which of course includes depth and width. As has been discussed before, 2nd and 3rd order harmonics can create a false illusion of additional soundstage width. And some recordings simply have no soundstage to speak of. Hence, Chord DACs would be more true to the original soundstage of the recording whereas DACs with more harmonic distortions would actually make all recordings have an "enhanced" soundstage to most listeners when in fact, they are merely listening to distorted soundstage.
  
 To me, the most important thing I appreciate about Chord DACs is the accuracy of instrumental timbre. However, I find that some audiophiles simply don't notice it. Sometimes, the music they listen to don't use real acoustic instruments so they have no reference point to compare. Sometimes, they listen to live unamplified concerts so rarely that they forget what real instruments sound like. So they start assuming that their non-Chord DACs are actually the most accurate at reproducing the instrumental timbre of their favorite recording. They would say the Chord DACs sound different but they can't pinpoint it. And then they would say they don't like the Chord DACs because they don't have the same dynamic/soundstage/details that they are used to with their current non-Chord DAC. However, I find that learning to listen to correct instrumental timbre to compare DACs is the easiest thing to do and the easiest thing to listen for. Once you're used to the Chord DACs sound, the next easiest thing to listen for is actually excessive brightness from noise floor modulation in non-Chord DACs.
  
 I think what Rob Watts describe as the best timing from 164000 taps and 256fs WTA upsampling is actually the hardest for most audiophiles to listen for, including myself. For the first 3 months when I owned the DAVE and compared to the Mojo, I had no idea what Rob Watts was talking about. It was winter and I got lazy and didn't go to a live concert. When you don't listen to live concerts, you forget what a drum strike sounds like or what a live plucked string sound like. Moreover, even though every time an instrument starts, we are hearing transient timing, it is simply not something we usually listen for. After attending the Boston Symphony on vacation, it suddenly clicked. I can hear the timing inaccuracy of non-Chord DACs vs Chord Mojo vs Chord DAVE vs live sound. It was something I never listened for and never noticed before. And I have to admit, because I've been busy in the summer with work and tennis, I'm beginning to forget what correct transient timing sounds like. If it weren't for me switching between Mojo (work) and DAVE (home) frequently I think I would start missing the differences in transient timing when listening.
  
 For those lucky enough to own Chord DAVE or other Chord DACs, I think these are interesting aspects of musical reproduction and listening to think about. I've tried explaining some of these aspects to other audiophiles and some people would appreciate it and slowly become converts to Chord DACs but others have told me that they have been audiophiles for over 50 years and I don't know what I'm talking about and Chord DACs aren't that great. I guess if they're happy with what they've got, who am I to judge...


----------



## Rob Watts

x relic x said:


> analogmusic said:
> 
> 
> > *Really looking forward to the first recordings from DAVINA*........
> ...


 
  
 I had to give Davina a short break, as I have been very busy finishing off the new Blu for a show later this month. But I am back onto Davina now, so I hope to finish the PCB by the end of (this!) October.
  
 For sure I will publish copies of test recordings, together with some files that are experimental (one Davina set up one way, another Davina a different way both fed the same mic feed) so we can all hear the difference.
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> I fully agree that nothing sounds like live unamplified music and while the gap can never be fully closed, it can be approached much further than it is now.  In the end, whether it be live unamplified music or a facsimile of it, as you've stated, it is that emotional connection that I believe we each seek.
> 
> 
> Thank you, Fredrik.  I was hoping someone would bring this up.  I have repeatedly alluded to Chord's upcoming digital amps but I believe it will be the combination of these amps and DAVINA that will more fully show us what the DAVE is capable of.  The onus will now be on Rob to deliver and I have full confidence he will but I believe these two components will erase all doubts about where the DAVE stands compared to the rest.
> ...




Thanks Roy for your great post as always! 

I wish that the DAVE where miles better than dcs vivaldi , MSB Select II , PS Audio , Nagra, but it is more down on subtle characteristics of the presentation, and i am still not satisfied with our answers why it does not leave the rest of the pack in a dusty cloud behind, so in my book the Delta Sigma Puls Array must also got some flaws / bottlenecks in the design, factors that we not yet have discovered or are not aware of how much it affect the sound to this date. 
Maybe something Rob will discover now in the DAVINA project, or in a couple of years time, when the mesauring devices gets even better. 
(For example, Rob discovered that if he set the noise shaper to -350 db you did get a positive result, then there is most likely many more hidden values that we are not aware of to day, that also affect the SQ performance.)

Or else i blame the recordings are to poor for DAVE, so it just show us 70% of what it is capable of, that could also be a factor. It going to scale when the recordings gets even better. 

(2)
One thing that i dont know how many have thaught of about the comparings with MQA On and Off switch on the Mytech or MSB Select II, it is the same file you are listening from. 

The file is a sort of a dubble head MQA / Flac file with an average size of like 40-60 MB , so when you deactivate the MQA switch the DAC reads the file as an normal compressed 16/44.1 PCM file, so that is why you are sort of tricked by the demonstration. For a real to real comparision the comparision should be that you fist listen to the best possible uncompressed DXD / DSD / PCM version , and then listen to the MQA file, for a honest comparison, because when you pull the switch it reads the file as if it was a slight compressed copy of a read book.


----------



## Rob Watts

The issue of timing and being able to accurately perceive the starting and stopping of notes is actually a relatively new attribute for me - I only really appreciated how important it was with Hugo, and that's only 3 years ago. It's odd, because it is a defect that reproduced audio clearly has, and once you appreciate the problem you wonder why one had not heard it before. But being able to reproduce that initial crack of explosive sound is actually key to perceiving things as sounding real. Having said that, it was the biggest factor that one gets from listening to direct cut vinyl. 
  
 I am absolutely convinced that if we can get two things right - being able to reproduce depth accurately, and being able to reproduce sharp transients properly - we will take a massive step towards closing that gap from live sound to reproduced sound.
  
 From my design perspective I think there are much more improvements possible on the timing issue. 
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> The issue of timing and being able to accurately perceive the starting and stopping of notes is actually a relatively new attribute for me - I only really appreciated how important it was with Hugo, and that's only 3 years ago. It's odd, because it is a defect that reproduced audio clearly has, and once you appreciate the problem you wonder why one had not heard it before. But being able to reproduce that initial crack of explosive sound is actually key to perceiving things as sounding real. Having said that, it was the biggest factor that one gets from listening to direct cut vinyl.
> 
> I am absolutely convinced that if we can get two things right - being able to reproduce depth accurately, and being able to reproduce sharp transients properly - we will take a massive step towards closing that gap from live sound to reproduced sound.
> 
> ...




So this timing issue, is it something that could be bettered with a new software for the FPGA in the future for DAVE, or does this involve a better hardware processing to?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

rob watts said:


> I had to give Davina a short break, as I have been very busy finishing off the new Blu for a show later this month. But I am back onto Davina now, so I hope to finish the PCB by the end of (this!) October.
> 
> For sure I will publish copies of test recordings, together with some files that are experimental (one Davina set up one way, another Davina a different way both fed the same mic feed) so we can all hear the difference.
> 
> Rob





Any idea when the Red Ref upgrade will likely follow the Blu Rob?


----------



## Christer

kamil21 said:


> @romaz, thanks for putting up your thoughts.
> 
> 1) What is the rated sensitivity of your alnico loudspeakers?
> 
> ...


 

 I have to ask the same question.
 I listen more than 95 % of the time to large scale symphonic  works and Opera.
 Even my old mini-monitors the classic BBC LS3/5A with a subwoofer, needed quite  a powerful amp to sound good on climaxes in such music.
 And with my  much better, electrostatic speakers I know that at peak levels in a Mahler symphony or Wagner Opera, several hundred watts and sometimes for a very short period, even more watts are needed to reproduce things effortlessly and  at reasonbly realistic levels.
 I am not familiar with "alnico" at all.
 The only alnico I find seems to be for guitars?
 Can they really be driven with  symphonic music directly by the DAVE?
 Have I missed something exceptional?
 Are they powered speakers like some used in some pop/rock recording studios?
 I am using a 900 watts per channel  MF amp with my stats.
 Even the upcoming  new amp from Rob will as far  as I am concerned, be nowhere near what most highend speakers need in power except some  unfortunately still rather colored horn speakers.
 Horn speakers can sound  fast and powerful and exciting, but at the cost of midrange coloration imho.
 I don´t listen to music as background to anything else. I only listen to music that is worthy of my full attention. Be it Bob Dylan or Beethoven. And I would not listen to  symphonic music  via any minispeaker driven desktop system.The only use I can see for the first ,20 watts per channel?version of Rob´s amp would be to drive really difficult headphones, but no speakers I can think of that I would use with my music.


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> So this timing issue, is it something that could be bettered with a new software for the FPGA in the future for DAVE, or does this involve a better hardware processing to?


 
  
 I am thinking more about Davina. In terms of interest, I think I have bottomed out the depth issue - we just merely have to have -350 dB capable paths, or a path from mic to transducer that has no small signal linearity issues at all. But in terms of timing, I think there are more things to be discovered, particularly on the decimation (ADC) side.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

christer said:


> kamil21 said:
> 
> 
> > @romaz, thanks for putting up your thoughts.
> ...


 
 The 20 W stereo (70 W mono-block) is merely the first amp in a series of differing power. The technology is scalable, so big power is possible.
  
 Rob


----------



## ChordElectronics

​  
  
 ​ *STOP THE PRESS - What Hi-Fi? Awards 2016 - DAVE Wins Best Temptation Award!!!*​  ​ Last night, at the What Hi-Fi? Awards 2016, not only did Mojo, 2Qute, and Hugo win awards, but DAVE picked up an accolade for the Best Temptation, with the team saying:​  ​ *"Forget the price, the @ChordAudio DAVE is the best DAC you can buy and our Temptation of the Year."*​  ​ As a passionate small team we're so thrilled with the result and incredibly proud that all of you on Head-Fi have been part of our journey.​  ​  ​ ​  
 ​


----------



## JaZZ

Congrats!


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> I had to give Davina a short break, as I have been very busy finishing off the new Blu for a show later this month. But I am back onto Davina now, so I hope to finish the PCB by the end of (this!) October.
> 
> *For sure I will publish copies of test recordings, together with some files that are experimental* (one Davina set up one way, another Davina a different way both fed the same mic feed) so we can all hear the difference.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 That's exciting. Great news!


----------



## bmichels

jazz said:


> That's exciting. Great news!


 
  
 So... a New Blu arrives )))   great news for DAVEs owners.
  
 I guess it do not read SACD, only CDs ?


----------



## rkt31

great achievement . congrats to chord team. mojo throws everyday a new surprise to me literally. sounds emanate so suddenly from pitch dark background.


----------



## Sunya

romaz said:


> While I would love more power and will hope to be first in line for Chord's 20-watt digital amp when it is released.


 
  
 Until then you should try the Benchmark AHB2 amplifier; it is the cleanest 100W amplifier right now, with extremely low distortion and noise; I think it should complement the DAVE very well.
  
 https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-ahb2-power-amplifier


----------



## EVOLVIST

rob watts said:


> The issue of timing and being able to accurately perceive the starting and stopping of notes is actually a relatively new attribute for me - I only really appreciated how important it was with Hugo, and that's only 3 years ago. It's odd, because it is a defect that reproduced audio clearly has, and once you appreciate the problem you wonder why one had not heard it before. But being able to reproduce that initial crack of explosive sound is actually key to perceiving things as sounding real. Having said that, it was the biggest factor that one gets from listening to direct cut vinyl.
> 
> I am absolutely convinced that if we can get two things right - being able to reproduce depth accurately, and being able to reproduce sharp transients properly - we will take a massive step towards closing that gap from live sound to reproduced sound.
> 
> ...




So, does this mean that we'll have to purchase a new Chord DAC in a year or two in order to keep pace with you?


----------



## Christer

bmichels said:


> So... a New Blu arrives )))   great news for DAVEs owners.
> 
> I guess it do not read SACD, only CDs ?


 

 So there are still people buying CD players?
 I never liked them and haven´t used one for many years.
 I have a couple of SACD players mainly collecting dust, that play both SACDs and rbcd . But since the recent  flood of releases in good hi res quality as downloads I see few reasons to support a format that was never very good with large scale  acoustic music in the first place. And is gradually being phased out anyway.
 Qobuz alone has some 1500 hi res titles of classical music.
 The only physical format that matters to me really, are LPs.
 And as Rob himself has  admitted direct cut LPs can sound very real.
 More real in fact than some digital hi res and of course rbcds.


----------



## kennyb123

ecwl said:


> I have my personal opinions as to why many people fail to hear the superiority of Chord Mojo/DAVE over other DACs. I agree with Romaz that the equipments downstream that color the sound and reduce transparency is part of the problem. But I think despite what I also think is a huge difference between the sound quality of Chord Mojo/DAVE compared to other DACs, I think most people listen to recorded music differently and put priorities on other aspects than what I consider the more important ones.
> 
> (snip)
> 
> I can hear the timing inaccuracy of non-Chord DACs vs Chord Mojo vs Chord DAVE vs live sound. It was something I never listened for and never noticed before.


 
  
 Good timing on this topic and the above post in particular.  A friend plans to put his Playback Designs MPD-3 up for sale.  I asked for a chance to audition it before he does that, so later this month I will get the chance to put the MPD-3 up against my Chord Mojo.  At 10x the price, one would think that the MPD-3 would be the easy winner, though it sounds like many here will disagree.  We shall see.  I will listen closely in the areas ecwl mentions.  I'm particularly sensitive when it comes to timing so that should be one of the more easily discernible things for me.


----------



## paulkwan

hubert h said:


> Paulkwan, Crgreen,
> 
> My remote works fine, I think it's actually a re-branded Arcam remote...
> 
> ...




I observed that my DAVE screen usually blank once within the first 30 sec of a music track playing, then the 2nd blank will probably happens at between 2-3 min of the same track. And virtually repeat the same for every track of music as the playlist goes on. 

Sound wise the blanking does not affect the playback, just worry if this is normal or something wrong with my unit.


----------



## Toolman

The screen blank is perfectly normal...I think it has been discussed with much details several pages back


----------



## Christer

sunya said:


> Until then you should try the Benchmark AHB2 amplifier; it is the cleanest 100W amplifier right now, with extremely low distortion and noise; I think it should complement the DAVE very well.
> 
> https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-ahb2-power-amplifier





 It sure looks interesting and  I was tempted too when they released it.They are Pro people and some classical labels, for example RCO, Concertgebouw LIVE use their ADCs at live recordings often with very good results. But I would have needed at least two of the AHB2. Which on the other hand would still have been a lot  less than the weight and space of  of my current amp combo which weighs in at a 51+56 lbs. A real backbreaker of a beast. The Benchmark is small and really lightweight in comparison. But even with two of them I am not sure they would deliver all the juice I need.Therefore I mainly use their DAC 2 HGC in my speaker system connected directly to my  900 watts power-amp and in some respects it gives my HUGO a run for its money and even beats it in some ways.
 In my system the Benchmark DAC 2 is a bit fuller  and warmer and  better at rendering realistic instrumental timbre than HUGO which can sound a bit thin and lacking in body and true  tone color in comparison. And not quite separating the different timbres in the wood winds  section as well as the DAC 2, for example.
 A  telling example of that is Reference Recordings recent original DXD /DSD256  Merging Horus, Tchaikovsky 6th symphony,which is full of dark moody woodwind colors.
 A warning to those who listen via headphones or  speaker based desktop systems, this is a realistic dynamic range recording that will test any system´s capabilities.
 And to do it full justice it needs to be heard via a full range speaker system at realistic levels, to really shine.
 It also happens to be one of the best performances of that masterpiece in recent yers imho.
 Available for download from Native DSD.com in DXD  and DSD and from HRA Germany as 24/192 PCM.
  
 That will be the first recording I hope to listen to via DAVE  in Singapore or KL  again in a couple of weeks.
 Winter is approaching and it is time to follow the migratory birds South over Winter as usual.
 I won´t leave without my HUGO, nor my HD 800 headphones, of course.
 But I am tempted to audition the new  Focal Utopia.
 Speaking  about DAVE, has it been tested by any of the American HIFI mags yet?
 I just checked Stereophile´s latest recommended products  2016 and found the Benchmark DAC 2 still in their top tier  A+ category, but HUGO TT only in their A category one step down.
 But not a word about DAVE yet.
 I have heard it was rated very well at RMAF though.


----------



## Jawed

romaz said:


> While headphones can be better with regards to resolving detail, they can never fully compete with speakers with regards to resolving time.  Not just depth from the standpoint of knowing that the brass section is seated 5 meters behind the woodwinds but even the reverberant sound field of the strumming of a guitar is better appreciated with speakers.  With headphones, there's just too short of a space for certain sounds to fully unfold.



I'm quite confident you will ditch this point of view when you hear headphones playing back a recording transformed with your personal HRTF. Done properly, it's a wholly new kind of transparency.

Playing ordinary stereo into headphones is akin to playing mono into a stereo set of speakers.



> [...] I see DAVINA as the bigger potential game changer as it is supposed to have the full performance characteristics of the DAVE with regards to noise floor, lack of noise floor modulation, DR, etc.  If the promise of DAVINA proves to be real and in theory, it should easily improve upon what MQA provides, while all will benefit, those with a DAVE should benefit the most.



Davina isn't going to get used for many commercially released recordings any time soon, if ever. On the other hand, it seems likely to help Rob understand how to implement DAVE's successor. Some time after the power amps have been done...


----------



## ChordElectronics

​  
 ​ [size=small]With the incredible enthusiasm, awards coming in fast, and continued support on Head-Fi over the past few years, we wanted to give something back to the forum members - to explain Rob Watts DAC technology and how unique it is, a little easier with a slick new video:[/size]​  ​ ​
 ​ *Enjoy!*​


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> I wish that the DAVE where miles better than dcs vivaldi , MSB Select II , PS Audio , Nagra


 
  
 I agree with you but I think "miles better" is unrealistic for any device.  On it's best day, the DAVE won't be miles better than a Mojo or even a $100 AudioQuest DragonFly (although this depends on how you define "miles") and this occurs for a variety of reasons including the quality of the actual performance, how well it was recorded, mixed and mastered, how good the transfer was and how good your ancillary equipment is.  Just too many potential shackles.  Of course, we never just hear the DAC or the amplifier or the speaker, it's always an interplay of all the components in the chain and so it's important to find the weak links in the chain.  In the same way that your Prion4 headphone cables helped better reveal your Abyss's capabilities, I believe you will find DAVINA and Chord's amps will do the same for the DAVE.
  
 There is also the matter of what I call listener accommodation.  While most of us would probably prefer to sleep in a big luxurious bed, if all that was available was a small simple bed, I believe we all learn to adjust to this small bed and still get a good night's sleep.  I find listening to music to be the same way because what is ultimately most important is the music itself, more so than the quality of the delivery.  For example, let's say I was a fan of the Rolling Stones (which I am) and one of their songs was playing on a low quality AM radio.  I certainly wouldn't turn off the radio since this would be better than no music at all and I would probably find a good level of toe tapping engagement with it and perhaps even sing along.  Would this presentation be much more enjoyable on my better system?  No doubt, but the point is that it is possible to have an engaging and even highly emotional listening experience with low quality gear.  For a true audiophile, it is still more about the music and so just because I own a DAVE doesn't mean that my listening sessions are "miles better" compared to another person who listens to their music off an iPhone. 
  
 Regarding my comparison of the DAVE against the dCS Vivaldi and the Nagra, bear in mind that I believed the DAVE convincingly won the contest as far as resolution, transparency and fidelity, the qualities that I find are most important in a DAC even though this expensive system, I believe, could have been set up much more transparently.  While it's easy to say I wish the DAVE could have been miles better, what does it say about the Nagra, which is 2x more expensive than the DAVE and the dCS, which is nearly 6x more expensive?  Is there any reason to believe the Select II will fare any better?  Even if you felt you preferred the Select II's presentation more for whatever reason, the divide will likely not be great, certainly not worth spending more than 10x the price of the DAVE for a fully loaded Select II.  In my view, for the rational minded person, the DAVE basically makes all the more expensive DACs irrelevant once you factor value into the equation.  Of course, you could make the same argument for the Mojo but once again, high-end audio is not a rational hobby.
  
 As to the individual that might prefer the harmonic nature of the Nagra or the commanding imaging of the Vivaldi to the DAVE, my answer to this is instead of paying more money for these DACs, consider getting a more harmonic amplifier or an amplifier or speakers that image better but don't give up resolution to acheive it.  What @JaZZ has recently opened my eyes to is the world of digital equalization, especially DSP.  I have been playing around with a software product called Acourate, an extremely powerful piece of DSP software created by Dr. Ulrich Brueggemann of Germany.  This software is used by professional sound mixers like Bob Katz and is quite capable of tailoring the sound coming from your headphones or speakers without the degradation that occurs with analog devices like equalizers or preamps.  You can correct for the frequency irregularities of your transducers (for example, you can conform your headphones to the Harman Response Curve).  You can also correct for your room and compensate for unwanted room nodes and with the help of Dr. Brueggemann (or Uli, as he likes to be called), you can make adjustments that suit you.  What I have found is that I can improve my imaging to the extent that it is "pinpoint" just as I heard with the Vivaldi but it defintely comes at the expense of depth, just like I heard with the Vivaldi.  What this offers me are options to tailor my sound back and forth but unlike the Nagra HD or the dCS Vivaldi, you can't create DSP filters that retrieve resolution.  If the DAC couldn't resolve it to begin with, then it's lost forever.  You could create DSP filters that add reverb and therefore, artificial depth but then everything sounds deep which isn't natural.  Even better, Acourate isn't very expensive and included in the price, Uli will help you create your first set of filters.  Highly highly recommended.


----------



## romaz

sunya said:


> Until then you should try the Benchmark AHB2 amplifier; it is the cleanest 100W amplifier right now, with extremely low distortion and noise; I think it should complement the DAVE very well.
> 
> https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-ahb2-power-amplifier




 Looks great!  Here's another clean sounding 120 watt amp and it is completely powered by super caps, just like the TT:
  
 http://www.vinnierossi.com/vr120-power-amplifier/


----------



## romaz

chordelectronics said:


> ​
> 
> ​ *STOP THE PRESS - What Hi-Fi? Awards 2016 - DAVE Wins Best Temptation Award!!!*​  ​ Last night, at the What Hi-Fi? Awards 2016, not only did Mojo, 2Qute, and Hugo win awards, but DAVE picked up an accolade for the Best Temptation, with the team saying:​  ​ *"Forget the price, the @ChordAudio DAVE is the best DAC you can buy and our Temptation of the Year."*​  ​ As a passionate small team we're so thrilled with the result and incredibly proud that all of you on Head-Fi have been part of our journey.​  ​  ​ ​
> ​


 
 I recognize Edd (everyone knows Edd) and Tom.  Who are the other gentlemen?


----------



## Sonic77

romaz said:


> I recognize Edd (everyone knows Edd) and Tom.  Who are the other gentlemen?


 

 Oh that's Dave and Mojo


----------



## lovethatsound

HI Rob & John 
Could you please tell us about the blu 2 please.Can you upgrade a blu to a Blu 2


----------



## ChordElectronics

romaz said:


> I recognize Edd (everyone knows Edd) and Tom.  Who are the other gentlemen?


 
 Edd answering here - From left to right: Myself - Edd Harris (Marketing/Media Manager), Maurice Tryner (UK Sales Manager), Matt Bartlett (Production Director), Colin Pratt (International Sales Manager), Tom Vaughn (Amplification Engineer and Show Veteran). Dan George (PR Manager) is the chap taking the picture on this occasion.


----------



## romaz

jawed said:


> I'm quite confident you will ditch this point of view when you hear headphones playing back a recording transformed with your personal HRTF. Done properly, it's a wholly new kind of transparency.


 
 Yes, I would like to hear this.
  


jawed said:


> Davina isn't going to get used for many commercially released recordings any time soon, if ever. On the other hand, it seems likely to help Rob understand how to implement DAVE's successor. Some time after the power amps have been done...


 
 I'm not so sure.  I guess it depends on just how good it is but I'm willing to bet there are plenty of independent labels, musicians, churches, etc that would be willing to invest in it if it is that good.  Personally, I am planning on getting a DAVINA for my own recordings.  As for those unwilling to part with their turntables, I imagine DAVINA partnered with DAVE could turn out to be a wonderful phono preamp.


----------



## romaz

chordelectronics said:


> Edd answering here - From left to right: Myself - Edd Harris (Marketing/Media Manager), Maurice Tryner (UK Sales Manager), Matt Bartlett (Production Director), Colin Pratt (International Sales Manager), Tom Vaughn (Amplification Engineer and Show Veteran). Dan George (PR Manager) is the chap taking the picture on this occasion.


 
 Well done, you guys!  Do all English own tuxedos?


----------



## miketlse

romaz said:


> Well done, you guys!  Do all English own tuxedos?


 
 Only the sales and marketing guys - the engineers do not get invited to these posh events LOL.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> I agree with you but I think "miles better" is unrealistic for any device.  On it's best day, the DAVE won't be miles better than a Mojo or even a $100 AudioQuest DragonFly (although this depends on how you define "miles") and this occurs for a variety of reasons including the quality of the actual performance, how well it was recorded, mixed and mastered, how good the transfer was and how good your ancillary equipment is.  Just too many potential shackles.  Of course, we never just hear the DAC or the amplifier or the speaker, it's always an interplay of all the components in the chain and so it's important to find the weak links in the chain.  In the same way that your Prion4 headphone cables helped better reveal your Abyss's capabilities, I believe you will find DAVINA and Chord's amps will do the same for the DAVE.
> 
> There is also the matter of what I call listener accommodation.  While most of us would probably prefer to sleep in a big luxurious bed, if all that was available was a small simple bed, I believe we all learn to adjust to this small bed and still get a good night's sleep.  I find listening to music to be the same way because what is ultimately most important is the music itself, more so than the quality of the delivery.  For example, let's say I was a fan of the Rolling Stones (which I am) and one of their songs was playing on a low quality AM radio.  I certainly wouldn't turn off the radio since this would be better than no music at all and I would probably find a good level of toe tapping engagement with it and perhaps even sing along.  Would this presentation be much more enjoyable on my better system?  No doubt, but the point is that it is possible to have an engaging and even highly emotional listening experience with low quality gear.  For a true audiophile, it is still more about the music and so just because I own a DAVE doesn't mean that my listening sessions are "miles better" compared to another person who listens to their music off an iPhone.
> 
> ...




I think you read my statement wrongly, what i meant was after John's little funny story about the R2R dac's are just some jittery overpriced atomic clocks built around an old design, then my question is how they can sound so evenly with the DAVE then, because based on the advertise video and John and Rob it should sound much, much better than the rest of the DAC market nevertheless of the technology behind it. But as always the proclaimed results in teory isn't always the same in reality.


----------



## EVOLVIST

romaz said:


> Yes, I would like to hear this.




Get in line. I think that Smyth Research has done a fairly poor job at marketing the A16. I would have at least been on Head-Fi, day and night, answering questions and pushing this thing along with their Kickstarter program.

I might be wrong, but it really seems like a person wouldn't be able to order one today and get it until a year from now...or more.

As for the DAVE being less than miles away from other DACs (ever how one measures a mile), I think you've been exposed to too many magnets.


----------



## Jawed

romaz said:


> kamil21 said:
> 
> 
> > 2) Were they connected directly to the headphone outputs or other output on the Dave?
> ...



It seems you are using the RCA outputs on the back of DAVE to drive your speakers. Surely the headphone output, which has much more available power, would be preferable?

Also, inflicting all these spurious connections twixt DAVE and speakers must be harming the music. Admittedly, it's harder to wire up two speaker cables into a TRS jack, but headphone cable is all you need. The headphone cable has to be split along its entire length and then you'll need to fix speaker plugs on the ends that normally go into the headphones. 

Perhaps you have a headphone cable you can sacrifice for this purpose that'll still sound good enough?


----------



## Deftone

rob watts said:


> I had to give Davina a short break, as I have been very busy finishing off the new Blu for a show later this month. But I am back onto Davina now, so I hope to finish the PCB by the end of (this!) October.
> 
> *For sure I will publish copies of test recordings, together with some files that are experimental (one Davina set up one way, another Davina a different way both fed the same mic feed) so we can all hear the difference.*
> 
> Rob


 
  
 excellent


----------



## jlbrach

Received my dave today and have been giving it a spin this evening...coming from the TT I didnt know exactly what to expect given that i loved the TT...that said,so far i am very impressed....incredible detail and space ,listening to each instrument in its place so clearly is a kick...this is very early obvious with no burn in etc but so far it is indeed a step up from the TT which aint easy.....the one thing i do not like is the confusing menus,lousy manual and general difficulty navigating around the Dave....Chord makes magnificent products at very high price points but their design and manual in many cases leave much to be desired....that said it sounds so damn good


----------



## romaz

jawed said:


> It seems you are using the RCA outputs on the back of DAVE to drive your speakers. Surely the headphone output, which has much more available power, would be preferable?
> 
> Also, inflicting all these spurious connections twixt DAVE and speakers must be harming the music. Admittedly, it's harder to wire up two speaker cables into a TRS jack, but headphone cable is all you need. The headphone cable has to be split along its entire length and then you'll need to fix speaker plugs on the ends that normally go into the headphones.
> 
> Perhaps you have a headphone cable you can sacrifice for this purpose that'll still sound good enough?


 
 No, RCA output and headphone output are equivalent with regards to power output, impedance, etc.  They are one and the same.  I sought Rob's counsel about all of this before proceeding.  He said the only thing to avoid was a 4-ohm load and so I proceeded with his blessing.
  
 You could certainly create a cable that goes from TRS jack to two speaker cables.  A spare headphone cable could work but it would be easier to start from scratch with raw materials so that you have exactly the length you need.  You also need to have the right soldering skills.  One of the reasons I chose to go RCA interconnects > speaker cables is because I already own these cables made by HFC and they are the best I have ever heard, much better than my Spore4 headphone cable.  I also prefer using the RCA outputs instead because it's cleaner to do it this way (wires are all in the back of the DAVE) and to give me the flexibility of using my headphones without having to unplug anything.  It's also easier to buy high-quality RCA connectors than high-quality 6.35mm jacks.  The best 6.35mm jacks from Furutech or Eidolic, for example, are rhodium-plated brass or some other impure alloy whereas Furutech's best RCA adapters are milled from OCC copper, cryo'd and then coated with rhodium.  These connections are also lower mass and less resonant.
  
 With any preamp, these spurious connections that go from XLR or RCA to some other format is what routinely happens.  Talk to any preamp or cable builder and they won't blink an eye if you ask for this kind of device.  An example of a cable that branches off this way would be a Y-cable that you can buy off the shelf for subwoofers but those cables are of very low quality.  Anyway, when done right, there is no harm to the music and I can assure you, if I detected any type of backward step in SQ, I wouldn't stick with it.  This is easily the most revealing sound I have ever heard.


----------



## Crgreen

Just to be clear, if Davina is the answer, what exactly is the question?


----------



## romaz

crgreen said:


> Just to be clear, if Davina is the answer, what exactly is the question?


 
 That the recordings we are hearing today are sorely compromised because of the limitations of all current ADCs and are preventing the DAVE from being even more transparent.


----------



## ubs28

romaz said:


> That the recordings we are hearing today are sorely compromised because of the limitations of all current ADCs and are preventing the DAVE from being even more transparent.




But recordings are also very poorly engineered with adding alot of brightness and compression / limiting. My Access Virus TI synthesizer doesn't sound anywhere as bright for example when I hear it in a final mix of a recording usually.


----------



## Crgreen

romaz said:


> That the recordings we are hearing today are sorely compromised because of the limitations of all current ADCs and are preventing the DAVE from being even more transparent.




Good news, for the next generation. In the meantime, the rest of us will be playing mostly compromised recordings of the music we love. Even assuming that Davina is a complete success - and I hope it is - and is taken up by most if not all, recording studios, this is likely to result in only a very small percentage of the music I listen to. Obviously, if you make your own recordings, it's a different matter.


----------



## TheAttorney

I don't feel we should get unduly depressed about the state of today's ADC limitations.
  
 Much the same ADC solutions can result in fantastic SQ or terrible SQ - depending on the recording/mixing/mastering techniques employed. Meaning that the latter processes have a hugely bigger impact on the end result. So even with Davina in place (eventually), it will be wasted if the recording/mixing/mastering continue to mess it up big time.
  
 So to follow on from ubs28's point, I think the term "recordings...are sorely compromised because of the limitations of all current ADCs" is somewhat overstating the case.
 Any further increase in transparency in any part of the recording chain is, of course, a good thing, but I'm not holding my breath on this particular improvement


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Did Rob mention where Chord are showing the new Blu CD player in October?

I know many feel that CD replay is dead but I think we will see a lot more out of the red book protocol over the next few years. Rob has proved with Dave that the industry was failing to rebuilding the sound wave properly. We have probably only been listening to something like 20% of what was captured on CD and that was via pretty ordinary ADC's. 44,100 samples per second is a lot of information and I have not given up on red book yet. Particularly as the hires availability is still woeful.


----------



## Mython

daveredref-iii said:


> Did Rob mention where Chord are showing the new Blu CD player in October?
> 
> I know many feel that CD replay is dead but I think we will see a lot more out of the red book protocol over the next few years. Rob has proved with Dave that the industry was failing to rebuilding the sound wave properly. We have probably only been listening to something like 20% of what was captured on CD and that was via pretty ordinary ADC's. 44,100 samples per second is a lot of information and I have not given up on red book yet. Particularly as the hires availability is still woeful.


 
  
  
 I agree, in principal, although environmental concerns may kill off CD as a format, even if the convenience and instantaneous gratification of digital downloads fails to put the final nail in Compact Discs coffin.
  
 It's a pity that Davina did not appear prior to CD waning in production, as I am personally a fan of CD, but I, like yourself, have a decent library of old CDs that will still improve in performance at the DAC end of the chain, with Rob's WTA tech.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Hi Mython
I am not even convinced top rate streaming of Red book is as good as Red Book from a top rate CD player yet. I am certainly hanging on to my CD's because as you say, new tech is validating it year after year. Besides I doubt I could find 10% of it on hires.

Anyway looks like this must be the show they anticipate launching the Blu 2
http://www.hifinews.co.uk/editorial/page.asp?p=1173


----------



## esimms86

mython said:


> I agree, in principal, although environmental concerns may kill off CD as a format, even if the convenience and instantaneous gratification of digital downloads fails to put the final nail in Compact Discs coffin.
> 
> It's a pity that Davina did not appear prior to CD waning in production, as I am personally a fan of CD, but I, like yourself, have a decent library of old CDs that will still improve in performance at the DAC end of the chain, with Rob's WTA tech.




Streaming is the 800 pound gorilla in the room that will be the death knell for CDs. And even though the majority of listeners are happy (at least for now) with MP3 quality, streaming offers Red book and MQA quality as further enticement. Digital downloads take a major back seat to streaming in this equation.

Regarding CD transports, the question is how much do they improve upon the sound quality of well done CD rips. I have not heard a CD transport so I can't weigh in on that one. Also, are there still improvements to be made in CD ripping software?


----------



## Mython

esimms86 said:


> .... are there still improvements to be made in CD ripping software?


 
  
  
 I suppose that might be possible, but EAC has ripping quality pretty well covered, for the most part.
  
 There are _many_ reasons why I dislike streaming, but you are probably right that it will become the de facto choice.
  
  
 All those of you who can afford DAVE, you are lucky lucky people that, whatever digital format you prefer to listen to, you will be experiencing the bleeding-edge of what is possible in terms of playback resolution and quality


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

The question for me is whether Rob can find a way to retrieve the data and present it in a way that suits Dave better than a piece of software on a computer or the previous Blu and Red Ref 3 for that matter. If Blu 2 can do a better job than Blu 1 (which by dint of the fact it is being launched implies that it can) then the best that Dave can deliver has more to do with just sending it a red book file of zero's and one's from a computer. If so this is likely to be better than a balk standard software program on a computer for sure. Rob has certainly learned something because the existing Blu and Red Ref 3 both sound more natural when using just 44.1 up sampling when feeding Dave. It will be interesting to hear the outcome of his latest work.


----------



## jlbrach

Another day and I have been listening to my LCD-4's with both the Moon Neo 430 amp and the Dave alone.....I find it sounds better to my ears without the amp but without the amp I have to listen between -15 and -3 for the most part and my only concern is the ability of the amp to output sound at these or perhaps even louder levels without clipping or other problems....when I listen to the Utopia I find I am listening between -30 and -20 which is quite a difference.I also have the HE1000 which falls somewhere in between.I also notice that the Dave is brutally honest and really distinguishes between HP's and their characteristics....you better like the sound of your HP alot if you get the Dave or else you are going to be very critical of it....all in all a completely different listening experience thus far


----------



## Jawed

My understanding is that while TT clips if turned up too loud, DAVE doesn't as headroom has been put in to make sure.

Well, in pure voltage terms, anyway. There's always the possibility that a headphone demands too much current.

Those levels on your LCD-4 matched what I briefly experienced at CanJam recently. It just requires a lot of voltage.

So far I've resisted the idea of getting DAVE as an upgrade from my TT. I'm enjoying the TT to such a ridiculous extent it seems unnecessary. The devil on my shoulder says "life's short, the music could be better with DAVE". And Focal Utopia wants my attention, too...


----------



## jlbrach

I understand your feelings regarding your TT because it is truly a fantastic DAC....I had the same thoughts about upgrading to the Dave but in the end i couldnt resist....you only live once right?....I do hope your explanation of the Dave regarding potentially clipping is correct because the Dave itself sounds better to my ears than the Moon Neo 430 as an external amp and believe me I love that amp,but straight out of the Dave just sounds better assuming it can handle the load


----------



## EVOLVIST

jlbrach said:


> .I also notice that the Dave is brutally honest and really distinguishes between HP's and their characteristics....you better like the sound of your HP alot if you get the Dave or else you are going to be very critical of it....all in all a completely different listening experience thus far


 
  
 Yup! That's exactly what I'm experiencing with my HD800s. Lesser DAC/Amp combos were fine until I moved to the DAVE. It's not the DAVE's fault; it's what I wanted out of music, i.e. the unvarnished truth, but the DAVE really does expose the shortcomings of stock HD800s, I believe. The Senns are still great headphones; don't get me wrong; nonetheless, for the first time I find the HD800s to be fatiguing now because it is not masked by a veiled DAC.


----------



## miketlse

rob watts said:


> I had to give Davina a short break, as I have been very busy finishing off the new Blu for a show later this month. But I am back onto Davina now, so I hope to finish the PCB by the end of (this!) October.
> 
> For sure I will publish copies of test recordings, together with some files that are experimental (one Davina set up one way, another Davina a different way both fed the same mic feed) so we can all hear the difference.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 You little teaser - you have now got thousands of people anxiously awaiting news of the new Blu as well. LOL


----------



## maxh22

evolvist said:


> Yup! That's exactly what I'm experiencing with my HD800s. Lesser DAC/Amp combos were fine until I moved to the DAVE. It's not the DAVE's fault; it's what I wanted out of music, i.e. the unvarnished truth, but the DAVE really does expose the shortcomings of stock HD800s, I believe. The Senns are still great headphones; don't get me wrong; nonetheless, for the first time I find the HD800s to be fatiguing now because it is not masked by a veiled DAC.


 
 Maybe you will enjoy the HD 800S more since the highs aren't nearly as sharp.


----------



## TheAttorney

Based on my post a while back, I doubt if the 800S is the answer.
  
 I just didn't get on with it at all. The sound wasn't sharp, but it was boring. From a purely tonal perspective I preferred my HD600 driven by Dave.
  
 I think a lot of this had to do with me getting used to my Stax 009 for several years. As far as I can tell, the HD800S (and 800 to greater extent) have exactly the opposite frequency response curve in the mid to upper mid range (i.e when the 009 goes up, the 800 goes down). This would have exaggerated the tonal issue I had with the 800S on female vocals.
  
 Some people love them (or at least modded or EQ'd versions of them), but I suspect if you're not happy with an 800, then an 800S won't solve all the problems.


----------



## EVOLVIST

maxh22 said:


> Maybe you will enjoy the HD 800S more since the highs aren't nearly as sharp.




Yeah, and like the Attorney said, I probably won't like the 800S with my DAVE either. I'm probably going to go with the Focal Utopias, or at least give them a shot as more tonally balanced.


----------



## lovethatsound

evolvist said:


> Yeah, and like the Attorney said, I probably won't like the 800S with my DAVE either. I'm probably going to go with the Focal Utopias, or at least give them a shot as more tonally balanced.


I still love my hd800 with the Dave and have no problem with them at all,but like you i want to try the Focal utopia.


----------



## jlbrach

I had the 800 and the 800S.....i found the soundstage to be unnatural to my ears and even the new 800S to be too bright...the Utopia with the Dave is brilliant....yes,a bad recording will still sound bad but a good recording is truly special.....if you can swing it,well worth it IMHO


----------



## EVOLVIST

lovethatsound said:


> I still love my hd800 with the Dave and have no problem with them at all,but like you i want to try the Focal utopia.


 
  
 Well, I'm pretty sensitive to high pitched noises. Oddly enough, I just took a hearing test, and once I got into the 16khz range, I didn't so much hear the tone as I felt the tone. Right now I still have a bit of a weird feeling in my head having been listening to those tones. I wouldn't say I have a golden ear (I mean, I'm 42); still, somewhere in that 14khz-20khz range my head started to swim with the high pitched noise, whether I actually "heard" it as a high pitched tone or not. Maybe that's what dogs feel when they get hit with one of those dog repellent gadgets.
  
 So, yeah, I suspect that 6-8khz spike is what really gets on my tit about the HD800s.


----------



## Jawed

jlbrach said:


> I understand your feelings regarding your TT because it is truly a fantastic DAC....I had the same thoughts about upgrading to the Dave but in the end i couldnt resist....you only live once right?...



I've thought of a new way to weigh my options. After CanJam I'd decided that I'd probably want Utopia first before DAVE, on the basis Utopia is probably the biggest upgrade. That is, if I prefer Utopia over HD 800 S.

But nagging at the back of any upgrade plan has been the question of whether Sennheiser will introduce a new headphone above HD 800 (S)... It could be years.

The new thought process starts off pretty simply: DAVE is inevitable. And quickly escalates to "well, while waiting to see if Sennheiser does something new, might as well listen to DAVE."

Anyway, nothing's going to happen until I can spend time with a dealer's well run-in Utopias. Preferably over a weekend or a whole week (I want to find out if they hurt my dumbo ears). It might be a few months before that becomes practical.

---

So, what do you think: which is the bigger upgrade, HD 800 S to Utopia or TT to DAVE?


----------



## bigfatpaulie

jlbrach said:


> Received my dave today and have been giving it a spin this evening...coming from the TT I didnt know exactly what to expect given that i loved the TT...that said,so far i am very impressed....incredible detail and space ,listening to each instrument in its place so clearly is a kick...this is very early obvious with no burn in etc but so far it is indeed a step up from the TT which aint easy.....the one thing i do not like is the confusing menus,lousy manual and general difficulty navigating around the Dave....Chord makes magnificent products at very high price points but their design and manual in many cases leave much to be desired....that said it sounds so damn good


 
  
 Congrats on the DAVE!!
  
 I agree on all accounts - the sound is really special and the interface is terrible.  Luckily, it is basically a case of set it and forget it.


----------



## miketlse

jawed said:


> So, what do you think: which is the bigger upgrade, HD 800 S to Utopia or TT to DAVE?


 
  
 Trying to look at this logically does not help, because:
  

if you upgrade to the Utopia first, it will improve your TT, but leave you itching to get the DAVE
if you upgrade to the DAVE first, it will improve your 800 S, but leave you itching to upgrade to Utopia
  
 So both scenarios will leave you feeling itchy.
 Consequently go to camjam, listen to the Utopia and DAVE if possible (i accept they are not ideal conditions), and let your heart tell you which route to follow.
  
 Sorry but it is the best that I can come up with.


----------



## Jawed

I went to CanJam in London. Listening to Utopia versus HD 800 S at the Moon Audio stand and then DAVE on the Chord stand with my HD 800 S was all, ultimately, drowned out by the noise. I had fun that weekend, but that environment prevented me from narrowing things down. To be fair I wasn't there to make such a decision, I went mostly out of general curiosity.


----------



## pkcpga

jawed said:


> I've thought of a new way to weigh my options. After CanJam I'd decided that I'd probably want Utopia first before DAVE, on the basis Utopia is probably the biggest upgrade. That is, if I prefer Utopia over HD 800 S.
> 
> But nagging at the back of any upgrade plan has been the question of whether Sennheiser will introduce a new headphone above HD 800 (S)... It could be years.
> 
> ...




That's tough and I think you need to listen to both to decide. I upgraded from the hd800 to utopia and it was a very worth while upgrade for me. But I already owned the Dave, I did upgrade or technically spent less but switched from a Lynn dac to the Dave and that was also a pleasant upgrade. I only thought of switching after buying the mojo for portable use and it sounded more musical than my home set up. I'm not sure how much better the Dave is than the TT since I've never tried it, only the non TT version which I found a little thin sounding compared to the Dave or mojo. I think you need to listen and see which gives you the best option at this time for your needs. Both are very good and who knows when sennheiser or chord will come out with something new, they don't seem to follow a schedule like cell phone companies. If you ever decide to add speakers the Dave works incredibly well with speakers as well. I will say I like the utopias through the mojo better than the Hugo (non TT), gave more of a natural weight to the bass, piano keys and male vocals. That might just be my personal preference though.


----------



## drabbish

quick review of my dave
  
 2 channel & headphone
  
 headphone:  LCD3F with cardas cable, wireworld plat. usb, mac pro, roon
 2channel: burmester gear with magico s3, wireworld platnium ic, sc, microrendu, uptone caps 
  
 dave hasnt really burned in yet just like 48hrs on it
  
 with headphones  sounds good, I dont have alot of headphone experience plus there is like 300pages about this
  
 2 channel: this doesnt get discussed here alot bc it is headfi so headphones are the thing but....this dac is pretty impressive. the soundstage is wide and deep. the sound is sweet and all the details are there. I hear every piece of sound that is in every sec of music. I have listened to a decent number of dac's. I was on the dac hunt for almost a year. decided on the dave bc it gave me everything I wanted in a dac plus headphone amp in a small package.  No need for 2-3 boxes and 15 cords for like a DCS type gear. I'm not here to figure out whats the best dac in the world but at this price point it really just depends on what you want in a dac. DSD/PCM/HEADPHONE its all here and it is small and light so I am able to move it around the house. 
  
 this dac will not save crap recorded music it will make it sound like crap like the rest of my gear but honestly all the Tidal streaming i have done sounds great, my pcm & dsd music sound superb.  I listen to alot or pop/electronic/hip-hop.


----------



## x RELIC x

drabbish said:


> quick review of my dave
> 
> 2 channel & headphone
> 
> ...




Congrats on the DAVE. Don't expect much burn-in with the hardware. Rob compared his early pre-production unit with many hours on it to a newer production build and noted no real difference.


----------



## PeteM

Has anyone done a direct comparison between the DAVE & older QBD76 HDSD?  I've owned the QBD76 for quite some time now & really like it but thinking about an upgrade.  Have already tried the Hugo TT but it really didn't do it for me -- I also found it somewhat "thin"...


----------



## EVOLVIST

drabbish said:


> quick review of my dave
> 
> 2 channel & headphone
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey, congrats! a little bit OT, but right now I am powering my DAVE with the WireWorld Silver Electra 7, which I find beats the snot out of every PC I've ever tried, including the High Fidelity Cables stuff, all for the ultra low price of $500. I was totally shocked at how well it brought out the imaging, depth and resolution of my DAVE. It was the first PC that I had ever heard that did exactly what it said it would (and this is after being on The Cable Company loaner program for a while now). So, if you know, I'm wondering how the Platinum compares, since that's quite a large jump in price from the Silver to Platinum in price.


----------



## XVampireX

Here's a good question, many companies today brag about their true bit perfect DACs, like Schiit Yggdrasil does true 21 bits instead of less with other DACs, there is no information on Chord DAVE if it is considerably more on the bit perfect side or on the non-true bit perfect side. Anyone knows anything?
  
 Also is Chord DAVE considered R2R? And is it NOS or does it OS to achieve its sound?
  
 Thanks


----------



## x RELIC x

xvampirex said:


> [COLOR=333333]Here's a good question, many companies today brag about their true bit perfect DACs,[/COLOR] like Schiit Yggdrasil does true 21 bits instead of less with other DACs, there is no information on Chord DAVE if it is considerably more on the bit perfect side or on the non-true bit perfect side. Anyone knows anything?
> 
> Also is Chord DAVE considered R2R? And is it NOS or does it OS to achieve its sound?
> 
> Thanks




You really should read this summary gathered by romaz to better understand the implementation Rob takes with his DACs, and why he doesn't like R2R (it's in there).

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1395#post_12262339

TL;DR

Rob's goal is to recreate the original sound before it was sampled, not to just leave the sampled data in tact. In his view there's too much jitter with R2R and you simply can't physically get the resistors to match well enough to have as low noise performance, and the ability to reproduce small signals, which he values greatly in his designs based on his extensive listening tests.

This post by Rob also explains a lot of his DAC implementation:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/800264/watts-up/120#post_12586725

And another summary post by romaz, probably the most relevant to your question, summarizing the DAVE compared to other DAC technologies:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/4515#post_12839928


----------



## theveterans

xvampirex said:


> Here's a good question, many companies today brag about their true bit perfect DACs, like Schiit Yggdrasil does true 21 bits instead of less with other DACs, there is no information on Chord DAVE if it is considerably more on the bit perfect side or on the non-true bit perfect side. Anyone knows anything?
> 
> Also is Chord DAVE considered R2R? And is it NOS or does it OS to achieve its sound?
> 
> Thanks


 
  
 DAVE is a Pulse Array DAC that resembles Delta Sigma closer than R2R as it doesn't use resistor ladders to form the analog voltages unlike Schiit. The true Schiit 21 bits marketing is that all samples that is upsampled through the burrito filter aren't thrown away, rather it's calculated 21 bits "exactly". Maybe the rest of the bits are "discarded," but I'm not a electrical engineer that knows the concept of digital signal filtering. All of that happens before the signal is passed through the resistor ladders.
  
 DAVE OTOH, upsamples the bits and sample rates to much higher than 768 KHz then through its WTA filter within the FPGA fills in the missing information such as timing, etc, to provide the most precise and accurate analog representation of the digital file. Obviously there's much more technicalities and jargon that happens within Rob's FPGA design.


----------



## Deftone

theattorney said:


> I don't feel we should get unduly depressed about the state of today's ADC limitations.
> 
> Much the same ADC solutions can result in fantastic SQ or terrible SQ - depending on the recording/mixing/mastering techniques employed. Meaning that the latter processes have a hugely bigger impact on the end result. So even with Davina in place (eventually), it will be wasted if the recording/mixing/mastering continue to mess it up big time.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sadly you also have to convince the engineers that Davina would be a lot better than the gear they already think is very good, i dont think they will all be rushing out to do more conversions from tape again. Then with mordern stuff how would one know if its been put through a Chord ADC... 
  
 I wonder what PCM sample rate Rob Watts would recommend engineers to use on Davina, simple 24/96 or extreme 32/768 thats quite interesting.


----------



## Deftone

mython said:


> All those of you who can afford DAVE, you are lucky lucky people that, whatever digital format you prefer to listen to, you will be experiencing the bleeding-edge of what is possible in terms of playback resolution and quality


 
  
 You got that right, lucky sods


----------



## XVampireX

x relic x said:


> You really should read this summary gathered by @romaz to better understand the implementation Rob takes with his DACs, and why he doesn't like R2R (it's in there).
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/1395#post_12262339
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks, will read right now, so based on TL;DR - I'm guessing it's a completely new design of DACs in general, not Delta Sigma nor R2R..
 Based on that post it is Pulse Array DAC, sounds interesting, I like unique.
  
 About the bit perfect part I see both 24 bits and 21 bits numbers in that post based on noise. so I'm guessing it's also at least 21 bits...
  
 I've grown much interest in the Chord DAVE even though it's not money come easy it will take me several months to save up so gotta make sure that this time I'm going for the kill with totally end-game DAC that some (many) people should be jealous of me.
  
 I also see that this topic is very active but most discussion here is pretty much on clarification of technology, Chord is not very open with their technology (And I can understand why).
 Hope nothing comes better soon after I get it especially cheaper and better.
  
 My Goals for the sound: Detail - Clarity with no Harsh Edges - Soundstage - Musicality


----------



## x RELIC x

xvampirex said:


> Thanks, will read right now, so based on TL;DR - I'm guessing it's a completely new design of DACs in general, not Delta Sigma nor R2R..
> Based on that post it is Pulse Array DAC, sounds interesting, I like unique.
> 
> About the bit perfect part I see both 24 bits and 21 bits numbers in that post based on noise. so I'm guessing it's also at least 21 bits...
> ...




I edited my previous reply to you and the last link I provided may be the most relevant to your question. As far as the bits are concerned I can't remember what Rob has said, he would have to answer that question. I can say that even 16/44.1 sounds incredible with Chord DACs.

Yes, Rob is walking his own path and no one else is doing it his way. He's very familiar with all the technologies out there and decided to follow his own path.




> My Goals for the sound: Detail - Clarity with no Harsh Edges - Soundstage - Musicality




Detail - DAVE has detail in spades. 

Clarity - Smooth, yet very clear, not riddled with harsh edges or hardnesss. What I consider very difficult to do and a strength of Rob's designs 

Soundstage - Rob in very interested in reproducing accurate depth. An organ played 100ft away should sound like 100 ft away. Soundstage though, in general, is more the domain of the recording (live vs studio mix), headphones or speakers.


----------



## esimms86

deftone said:


> Sadly you also have to convince the engineers that Davina would be a lot better than the gear they already think is very good, i dont think they will all be rushing out to do more conversions from tape again. Then with mordern stuff how would one know if its been put through a Chord ADC...
> 
> I wonder what PCM sample rate Rob Watts would recommend engineers to use on Davina, simple 24/96 or extreme 32/768 thats quite interesting.




FWIW the MQA algorithms can reportedly easily determine whether or not Davina was part of the original recording chain. If MQA can do it...


----------



## x RELIC x

esimms86 said:


> FWIW the MQA algorithms can reportedly easily determine whether or not Davina was part of the original recording chain. If MQA can do it...




How do you think MQA could determine this? Two completely different companies and approaches.


----------



## Rob Watts

deftone said:


> theattorney said:
> 
> 
> > I don't feel we should get unduly depressed about the state of today's ADC limitations.
> ...


 
  
 I often wear two hat's simultaneously, which sometimes creates schizophrenia at worst, or a headache at best.
  
 For sure 768 kHz or 705.6 kHz 24 bit is the best. You don't need 32 bits, as the noise shaper running at 768k is so effective guaranteeing > 350 dB performance. I have been listening to the Blu mk 2 prototype, and whilst coding for it I wanted to add some tests required actually for Davina. This had 768 24 bit output, and it was either noise shaped, or triangular or Gaussian dithered.
  
 The noise shaped is technically the best, as I have proven that it can reproduce -301 dB 6 kHz signal perfectly. The other schemes rely on randomization to encode small signals and I wanted to see if there were any losses in employing dither rather than noise shaping. The triangular had the worst sound quality - poorer depth, and detail resolution. Gaussian was better, but the noise shaper was easily the best sounding. Now that's just the issue of how we handle n bits (in this case 54 bits) down to 24 bits, we also have the losses of converting to 44.1/48 K then WTA reconstruction back to 706/768 kHz.
  
 So I could simply say lets run at 768 kHz 24 bits and to hell with it. This is where my second hat comes on, and that's me as a music lover. I have 4TB portable hard drive, and its full. It is almost all redbook, and unless we get peta portable hard drives I need 16 bit 44.1 to work acceptably; so I absolutely need small file sizes to work as well as possible, and a lot of the focus on the Davina project will be to find out how much of a SQ loss we actually get, and how to minimize it. 
  
 As too recording engineers - well the ones I have met have been passionate about getting the best sound possible. Perhaps its a skewed sample, as recording engineers who wish to talk with me might be more passionate about SQ anyway... But in one sense whether Davina tech takes off big time or not in the pro world is not what motivates me; I can see glaringly obvious problems with modern ADC's and I simply just want to fix those problems. 
  
 Rob


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I can see how a lot of what you learn from the Davina project wil benefit Blu and Dave 2, not to mention their siblings Rob. It clearly validates the project to my mind.

Fwiw I think your average mastering engineer cares passionately about sound quality. That's why very few ADC brands are present in the worlds top mastering houses. Their reputation relies on using only the best.


----------



## STR-1

evolvist said:


> Hey, congrats! a little bit OT, but right now I am powering my DAVE with the WireWorld Silver Electra 7, which I find beats the snot out of every PC I've ever tried, including the High Fidelity Cables stuff, all for the ultra low price of $500. I was totally shocked at how well it brought out the imaging, depth and resolution of my DAVE. It was the first PC that I had ever heard that did exactly what it said it would (and this is after being on The Cable Company loaner program for a while now). So, if you know, I'm wondering how the Platinum compares, since that's quite a large jump in price from the Silver to Platinum in price.



Hi, I'm looking for some worthwhile power cable upgrad options for my Dave (still using stock) so am interested in your recommendation of the Wireworld cable. 

I've not listened to many cables so far, just a Shunyata Alpha analogue (good punchy base, and clean and dynamic overall) and an AudioQuest NRG-10 (warm attractive bass but takes too much away from the top end); HFC pc cables are not available in the UK to demo. I looked up one review of the Silver Electra (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/wireworld2/wireworld_3.html), which seemed to confirm the points you made about imaging, depth and resolution but it did suggest that some might feel it was lacking some "weight and bottom-end grunt". Would you agree with that? Thanks.


----------



## analogmusic

Dear Rob
  
 I have been reading about Dave and Hugo on your various posts, so some key differences I could pick up are
  
 - Noise Shaper for Dave is at -350 DB resolution compared to -200 DB for Hugo
 - The WTA filter for Hugo is as 16 FS, but for Dave it is 256FS WTA filter. Does Mojo also have 16 FS WTA filter?
 - Analog stages for Dave vs Hugo, some differences.
 - Pulse Array 20 E for Dave and 4E for Hugo
  
 You previously posted on your thread watts up "*Now replacing the WTA from 16FS (data every 1,417 nS) to 256 FS (data every 89 nS) - - it is a very subtle difference, but was nonetheless extremely audible."*
  
 I guess all this means that the Dave is really another league of performance compared to Hugo / Mojo, and it was easily audible to my ears, as you said the Dave has better timing.
  
 I'm sure many would be interested to know more such details about what separated Dave from Hugo/Mojo.
  
 Recently someone posted, that one cannot really gain an understanding of Dave based on the performance on Hugo, having heard both, yes I agree with this statement.
  
 You also posted 
  
*"The Dave project allowed me to understand exactly what I had stumbled upon, and in the case of Dave, further maximize it. Now the job of a DAC is to converted sampled data back into a continuous waveform exactly as was in the ADC converter, and I had improved the filters within Hugo that go from 16FS to 2048FS - this meant that I had recreated the analogue waveform in the time domain to a much better accuracy than before, and it was this better accuracy that gave the subjective improvements. I had done this in order to improve jitter sensitivity, reduce RF noise levels, all to reduce noise floor modulation, which makes a DAC sound smoother - but it also had these subjective timing benefits.*

  

*The filtering was a three stage digital filter, and means I can recreate the analogue waveform accurately to a 9.6 nS resolution. All other DAC's work to a resolution of at most 16FS, which is only 1.4 uS. Moreover, getting to this resolution is not good either, as they have very limited tap lengths so it has gross timing errors too. The fact that I have very long tap length WTA filters, plus the fact that filtering is at 9.6nS resolution, gives Mojo this unique timing performance - and its that, above all else, that gives it its musicality."*

  
 I guess my question is, I'm about confused about what these numbers mean, the 9.6 nS resolution you mentioned compared to the WTA filter resolution you mentioned for Hugo 1,417 NS and then 89 Ns (this I think means before the 2048 FS upsampling). I think the 9.6 probably means after the 2048 FS upsampling, but some more detail from you would be much appreciated.
  
 Does it mean, ultimately, Dave, Hugo and Mojo all have 9.6 Ns resolution?
  
 Thanks and Regards


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes all my DAC's filter up to 9.6nS, but they are different to how its done.
  
 So Hugo/Mojo is:
  
 WTA 16FS > Linear interpolation filter to 2048 FS > Low pass Filter > Low pass filter > noise shaper.
  
 The low pass filter is set to 260 kHz, and is mathematically the same as a simple RC low pass filter.
  
 Dave is:
  
 WTA 16FS > WTA to 256FS > Linear interpolation filter to 2048 FS > Low pass Filter > Low pass filter > noise shaper
  
 The addition of the extra WTA filter adds a surprising amount to SQ - surprising because from a HF error point of view there is not much difference between them; but from a time domain POV there is an important difference - the addition of the WTA to 256FS gets us closer to the ideal sinc impulse response. And the closer it gets to ideal, the closer the DAC gets to reproducing the signal in-between samples. What is interesting is these very small differences are very audible and account for Dave's ability to portray the starting and stopping of notes properly.
  
 Rob


----------



## analogmusic

When I heard Dave, I experienced a lot more musical goosebumps than Hugo, would the better timing be responsible for this, or is it also the -350 DB noise shaping performance, or I suppose a combination of everything in the Dave that is better than the Hugo?


----------



## icebear

In which universe can anyone measure -350dB signals, let alone hear anything like that?
 What's the noise floor in a typical home listening room?
 What's the dynamic range in which a speaker or headphone operates w/o damaging the listeners ear drums?
 What's the dynamic range and noise floor of microphones?
 ... something has to first capture the analog waves of sounds before and super duper WTA What filter can the -350dB magic.
  
 This all sounds a little over the top of marketing soft brown substance, at least to me.


----------



## x RELIC x

icebear said:


> In which universe can anyone measure -350dB signals, let alone hear anything like that?
> What's the noise floor in a typical home listening room?
> What's the dynamic range in which a speaker or headphone operates w/o damaging the listeners ear drums?
> What's the dynamic range and noise floor of microphones?
> ...




http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/4710#post_12859578


----------



## Rob Watts

Absolutely this performance is measurable. This is the FFT from data coming out of Dave's noise shaper:
  

  
 This confirms that the noise shaper accurately resolves a -301 dB 6 kHz signal.
  
 My contention, based on my own listening tests, is that this performance is required to reproduce depth correctly. Now I can see that making claims that the brain needs this level of accuracy as being absurd; how can the ear/brain be so sensitive? Indeed, I was in two minds about whether I should post about these results, as its easy to ridicule them. But I took the view to follow the evidence, no matter how absurd it may appear, and I stand by my claims, based upon repeated listening tests, that the digital signal path must have absolutely no error (no matter how small) in small signal amplitude linearity in order to reproduce depth correctly.
  
 Actually some of the listening tests I have planned for Davina actually will be about this issue; I will do depth recordings, and some will be with Davina using 350dB noise shaping, and some will be with less capable noise shaping, as some of the integrators will get turned off. Now if it transpires that nobody can hear the difference then I will eat my proverbial hat.
  
 Rob


----------



## EVOLVIST

str-1 said:


> Hi, I'm looking for some worthwhile power cable upgrad options for my Dave (still using stock) so am interested in your recommendation of the Wireworld cable.
> 
> I've not listened to many cables so far, just a Shunyata Alpha analogue (good punchy base, and clean and dynamic overall) and an AudioQuest NRG-10 (warm attractive bass but takes too much away from the top end); HFC pc cables are not available in the UK to demo. I looked up one review of the Silver Electra (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/wireworld2/wireworld_3.html), which seemed to confirm the points you made about imaging, depth and resolution but it did suggest that some might feel it was lacking some "weight and bottom-end grunt". Would you agree with that? Thanks.




I would not agree with that. In fact, quite the opposite as I've been using HD800s, and depending on the recording there is plenty of articulate umph in the lower registers. It's not like these cables are cutting off any of the signal. They are the purest PC I've ever heard, so with the DAVE if you expect pure, the pairing is very much the sonic characteristics of the stock cable, yet expanded to bring out the best in the DAVE.


----------



## esimms86

The point I was trying to make is that each ADC apparently has its own "fingerprint," if you  will, a set of characteristics that MQA is able to determine EVEN IF the ADC was not documented in the engineer/producer/record company's files. If MQA can do this then it means that it is no longer a problem without a solution.
  
 This is in response to @Deftone's question: "Then with mordern stuff how would one know if its been put through a Chord ADC... "


----------



## Torq

esimms86 said:


> The point I was trying to make is that each ADC apparently has its own "fingerprint," if you  will, a set of characteristics that MQA is able to determine EVEN IF the ADC was not documented in the engineer/producer/record company's files. If MQA can do this then it means that it is no longer a problem without a solution.
> 
> This is in response to @Deftone's question: "Then with mordern stuff how would one know if its been put through a Chord ADC... "


 
  
 To be able to do so in anything even approaching a deterministic manner (and anything less is, at best, guessing), it would need a reference to a parallel recording with known ADC characteristics in order to compute the differentials for the undocumented ADC.  You can, in (mathematical) theory, use other proxies for the missing ADC documentation, but all of them require additional, more invovled, information in order to function.


----------



## STR-1

evolvist said:


> I would not agree with that. In fact, quite the opposite as I've been using HD800s, and depending on the recording there is plenty of articulate umph in the lower registers. It's not like these cables are cutting off any of the signal. They are the purest PC I've ever heard, so with the DAVE if you expect pure, the pairing is very much the sonic characteristics of the stock cable, yet expanded to bring out the best in the DAVE.



Thanks. I think I can get a loan of a Silver Electra so will give it a go.


----------



## esimms86

torq said:


> To be able to do so in anything even approaching a deterministic manner (and anything less is, at best, guessing), it would need a reference to a parallel recording with known ADC characteristics in order to compute the differentials for the undocumented ADC.  You can, in (mathematical) theory, use other proxies for the missing ADC documentation, but all of them require additional, more invovled, information in order to function.


 

 There is a fairly short list of ADC's used by engineers in the recording industry. If one, for example, looks at the extensive Neil Young catalog you have a large number of records made with the highly popular Pacific Microsonics ADC. Once Chord releases recordings made with Davina there will similarly be a Davina database to be analyzed.


----------



## TheAttorney

rob watts said:


> So I could simply say lets run at 768 kHz 24 bits and to hell with it. This is where my second hat comes on, and that's me as a music lover. I have 4TB portable hard drive, and its full. It is almost all redbook,
> As too recording engineers - well the ones I have met have been passionate about getting the best sound possible. Perhaps its a skewed sample, as recording engineers who wish to talk with me might be more passionate about SQ anyway...


 
 Wow, 4TB is lot of redbook! But I'm glad you're championing redbook because it's all I've got. 
  
 Regarding recording engineers, I'm sure many of them are passionate about best SQ, but I think of them as small cogs in a Huge Machine. And the Huge Machine is not as interested in SQ as it is in profit. And the Huge Machine also seems to genuinely mistake Loud SQ for Good SQ.


----------



## Torq

esimms86 said:


> There is a fairly short list of ADC's used by engineers in the recording industry. If one, for example, looks at the extensive Neil Young catalog you have a large number of records made with the highly popular Pacific Microsonics ADC. Once Chord releases recordings made with Davina there will similarly be a Davina database to be analyzed.


 
  
 It doesn't matter unless you have access to either the pre-ADC source material to compare with the output of the unknown-ADC, *or *you have at least two post-_known_-ADC copies of the identical source material.  With one, or both of those, you could generate the data necessary to fingerprint and unknown ADC.  But I imagine it's rather unlikely that studios make, and keep, parallel encodings of a given master using different ADCs.
  
 Beyond that, if the pre-ADC source material differs in any way in either scenario it becomes impossible to determine whether what would amount to the "fingerprint" was a result of source material differences or artifacts of the ADC in use.  What you COULD do, is determine if there were differences in the various encodings; you just wouldn't have enough information to know WHY they differed (i.e. source differences vs. encoding differences).
  
 And if you don't have that pre-ADC copy, or access to two existing post-known-ADC copies, then you'd have to re-sample the master.  Which makes the fingerprinting model irrelevant as at that point you'd simply make sure you were doing the re-sampling with a known-ADC.
  
 MQA has lots of interesting ideas and clever models, but it doesn't change fundamental information theory.


----------



## Audiolic

now with metrum transient modules two, your only choice will be an hugo 2 at 2000$ that can beat metrum musette 2.  
  
 I'm waiting for this musette 2 release before buying any dac..


----------



## drabbish

evolvist said:


> Hey, congrats! a little bit OT, but right now I am powering my DAVE with the WireWorld Silver Electra 7, which I find beats the snot out of every PC I've ever tried, including the High Fidelity Cables stuff, all for the ultra low price of $500. I was totally shocked at how well it brought out the imaging, depth and resolution of my DAVE. It was the first PC that I had ever heard that did exactly what it said it would (and this is after being on The Cable Company loaner program for a while now). So, if you know, I'm wondering how the Platinum compares, since that's quite a large jump in price from the Silver to Platinum in price.


 
 I actually havent jumped into the power cord stuff yet.  I was thinking of taking that step next year.  I have been considering WW plat vs shunyata seems like shunyata gets the nod in alot of forums when it comes to the power stuff. there was that audiobacon review with the dave and power cables it was a interesting review


----------



## EVOLVIST

drabbish said:


> I actually havent jumped into the power cord stuff yet.  I was thinking of taking that step next year.  I have been considering WW plat vs shunyata seems like shunyata gets the nod in alot of forums when it comes to the power stuff. there was that audiobacon review with the dave and power cables it was a interesting review


 
  
 Oh, I think I read your other post wrong. Sorry. You were talking about headphone cables, yeah?
  
 Well, if you haven't gotten into power cables, DON'T!!! Just kidding (sort of)! It's a big pain the ass, really. It's funny because I've heard pretty much all of the exotic brands, and yes, I respect the hell out of opinions in here, as well as the reviews on audiobacon, but in the end I sort of thought for myself. Not that I was following the crowd, but that I just had to try what everybody said was the best, when in fact it's all goes by what your ears are tuned to.
  
 The truth is, most of the exotic cables with my DAVE sounded worse with the cables in. There was either a hardening of the sound, the cable did nothing, or it sucked the life from the music. Yeah, there is snake oil in the bunch for sure. Not all, but most.
  
 After hearing the offerings from the High Fidelity Cable Company, I thought I had settled on something that was really special...until it wasn't. So, after all the headaches, I had this WireWorld Silver Electra 7 sitting around that a real respected audio dealer kept telling me it was the best, but I had boxes full of all these more pricy, so I never gave the $500 cable a try. It was unbelievable when I put it in. A true revelation. Like I said in another post, like the stock cable, but more open, resolving, transparent, without a sound signature that deviated from the one that came with the DAVE.
  
 It's a jungle out there. What works for me might not work for you. If you're trying to tune the DAVE away from its natural signature, by all means there are cables out there that will do that. But if you're trying to open up the DAVE by just getting cleaner power, while filtering out the bad stuff, well, I've only heard one cable that can do that. I have no idea what going up a big notch to their Platinum 7 will do, or not do.
  
 My only caveats are that I employ a PS Audio P300 which provides balanced power in the form of a pure sine wave from my wall to the power cord, and that I am still using my HD800s, which I don't think synergies with the DAVE all that well, unless you mod or EQ.


----------



## jlbrach

A question to those who know more than I do...I own the LCD-4 as well as the Utopia...the Utopia is easy to drive with my volume levels usually between -34 to -22 or thereabout....with my LCD-4 my volume ranges from -15 to -5 with occasionally need for even a bit more volume....forgive me if this has been answered but at what point would one worry about clipping...how loud can one go before this would become an issue...since -3 is the setting for the DAC only mode I assume clipping wouldnt be an issue before you went beyond -3 but my question is how far could you safely go....up until now I have always used my Moon Neo 430 when i istened to my LCD-4's but I would rather go straight out of the Dave if possible...again apologies if this has been answered.....thanks


----------



## x RELIC x

jlbrach said:


> A question to those who know more than I do...I own the LCD-4 as well as the Utopia...the Utopia is easy to drive with my volume levels usually between -34 to -22 or thereabout....with my LCD-4 my volume ranges from -15 to -5 with occasionally need for even a bit more volume....forgive me if this has been answered but at what point would one worry about clipping...how loud can one go before this would become an issue...since -3 is the setting for the DAC only mode I assume clipping wouldnt be an issue before you went beyond -3 but my question is how far could you safely go....up until now I have always used my Moon Neo 430 when i istened to my LCD-4's but I would rather go straight out of the Dave if possible...again apologies if this has been answered.....thanks




Maybe this will help:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3030#post_12586759




rob watts said:


> The display setting of -3dB in DAC mode is the same as pre-amp mode - its just the volume control is permanently set to -3dB.
> 
> Dave has inbedded overload margins, for lots of different reasons, *so it will actually only clip at volumes above +4dB*. -3dB is 3v RMS, +4dB will give 6.7V RMS from the headphone or RCA outputs.
> 
> Rob


----------



## jlbrach

That is interesting,so as i read and understand that i should be able to go beyond -3 without issue as long as i do not exceed +4 which is a level i would never get to as far as I can imagine but who knows lol


----------



## x RELIC x

jlbrach said:


> That is interesting,so as i read and understand that i should be able to go beyond -3 without issue as long as i do not exceed +4 which is a level i would never get to as far as I can imagine but who knows lol




That's what I read.


----------



## Deftone

audiolic said:


> now with metrum transient modules two, your only choice will be an hugo 2 at 2000$ that can beat metrum musette 2.
> 
> I'm waiting for this musette 2 release before buying any dac..


 
  
 Interesting, well i know my next DAC purchase will be the successor to Hugo (whenever it comes)


----------



## EVOLVIST

x relic x said:


> Maybe this will help:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3030#post_12586759




Yeah, but that's in DAC and preamp mode. Are we sure that applies to the headphone out? It seems to be I had read Rob say +6db for headphones, but I could be mistaken.


----------



## jlbrach

In DAC out mode it is fixed is it not...I suppose you could increase the volume in the DAC out mode but that wouldnt make much sense....I am only referring to headphone out mode


----------



## EVOLVIST

jlbrach said:


> In DAC out mode it is fixed is it not...I suppose you could increase the volume in the DAC out mode but that wouldnt make much sense....I am only referring to headphone out mode




Right, yeah so just preamp mode, that is unless it's +4db in headphone mode, too.


----------



## x RELIC x

evolvist said:


> Right, yeah so just preamp mode, that is unless it's +4db in headphone mode, too.




I would presume so as he mentions the RCA and headphone out in the same sentance:



evolvist said:


> Yeah, but that's in DAC and preamp mode. Are we sure that applies to the headphone out? It seems to be I had read Rob say +6db for headphones, but I could be mistaken.






rob watts said:


> The display setting of -3dB in DAC mode is the same as pre-amp mode - its just the volume control is permanently set to -3dB.
> 
> Dave has inbedded overload margins, for lots of different reasons, so it will actually only clip at volumes above +4dB. -3dB is 3v RMS, *+4dB will give 6.7V RMS from the headphone or RCA outputs*.
> 
> Rob


----------



## x RELIC x

Basically, as I understand it, they are all the same output with different memories for digital volume control. XLR doubles the voltage out, but Rob has said it's not as clean as the RCA.


----------



## Ashrunner

Given the current Pound / US Dollar exchange rate, Dave is just a bit over $9000 if purchased in pounds.  Has anyone successfully purchased one in the UK and had it shipped to the US?  If so, where?  If not, to save $4000, probably worth just getting on a plane and buying in person in the UK...
  
 Any reason the UK version wouldn't work in the US?
  
 EDIT:  Looks like the import duty fee would be around $350 - not bad.


----------



## EVOLVIST

x relic x said:


> I would presume so as he mentions the RCA and headphone out in the same sentance:




Mmmm...yeah, I probably need to work on my reading comprehension. Heh.


----------



## jlbrach

with the exchange rate it would be about 9800.00...plus the 350 plus i believe there is a 20% VAT then shipping etc....and the other inconveniences....


----------



## Rob Watts

evolvist said:


> x relic x said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe this will help:
> ...


 
  
 Yes you only need to worry about clipping with headphones with the volume at +5 dB. The other cool thing about Dave is when you load the OP with say 33 ohms, the SQ does not harden up as there is no change in distortion (apart from 2nd harmonic increasing slightly). This is due to the unique second order noise shaper and the discrete OP stage.
  
 Rob


----------



## analogmusic

Hi Rob
  
 you posted 
  
 "Pulse Array is a constant switching scheme - that is it always switches at exactly the same rate irrespective of the data, unlike DSD, R2R, or current source DAC's. This means that errors due to switching activity and jitter are not signal dependent, and so is innately immune from jitter creating distortion and noise floor modulation and any other signal related errors. The only other DAC that is constant switching activity is switched capacitor topology, but this has gain proportionate to absolute clock frequency - so it still has clock problems."
  
 So finally it starts to make some sense to me, as it a constant switching scheme. So how does it make an analog signal?


----------



## Rob Watts

So with Dave we have 20 elements that are resistors and flip-flops. So we can have them all on, and in voltage mode the OP would be +5v (the reference voltage) and all off and it would be 0v. With half on and half off we have 2.5v. Now actually I don't use voltage mode as it creates too much distortion - the switching activity propagation delay gets gets modulated by the actual OP voltage - so the resistors go into the single I to V converter. In this case the other input of the I to V is set to 2.5v, so now when they are all on it pushes current (5 mA) into the I to V node, when all off it sucks current (5 mA) out of the node. When current is fed into the node, this is balanced by an equal and opposite current from the OP stage - and due to the feedback resistor, we get an output voltage. Now this will be a noise shaped analogue output, which just needs some gentle filtering to get you analogue that can then drive HP or power amps directly. And the filtering is done by a couple of capacitors in the feedback path.
  
 Simple really.
  
 But getting the I to V node so it was exactly 2.5v under all conditions without RF noise ain't easy. And getting the reference voltage so that that was noise free and never changing was also not easy. Remember that only a 10 nV change in reference voltage that is signal related will create measurable distortion...
  
 Rob


----------



## analogmusic

Hi another question (apologies)
  
 In one of your youtube interviews about the Dave, the interviewer asks you about the WTA 256 filter, and you finally make it possible, so why it is significant? Why does Dave have an additional 256 WTA filter, and still the initial 16 WTA filter?


----------



## Rob Watts

The simple answer is it sounds a lot better that way. Before I had the 256 FS WTA filter, Dave was sounding very rich and dark - soft almost. But adding the 256 FS WTA allowed for a better appreciation of the starting and stopping of notes - and things sounded sharper, faster and tighter. Now technically its because it is much closer to the ideal sinc function response, so the timing of transients is more accurate. Now its a very subtle difference technically, but has a profound impact when you actually listen to it as instruments sound much more real.
  
 The real lesson I learned with Dave is that extremely small technical defects are very audible; we need to worry about minute timing errors and insignificantly small signal amplitude errors.
  
 Rob


----------



## jlbrach

Well,the Dave has created quite a dilemma for me.I own both the LCD-4 and the Utopia and the decision as to which one to listen to and which one is better has become impossible...the Dave exposes so much music i never heard before even through my TT which was superb.The Utopia has a smaller soundstage and less bass although not bass shy at all ...it is more comfortable and a bit more detailed.The LCD-4 has to me the perfect soundstage,not too wide that it sounds artificial like the HD800's but still wider than the Utopia which is more closed in.There is something about the Audeze sound that makes it so easy to listen to for long periods of time...the LCD-4 requires far more power and volume and really puts the Dave to the test while driving the Utopia proves to be a cinch.I know,i know...everyone should have such problems but they are both so damn good it makes it an impossible choice.....The bottom line is the Dave is simply a thrilling product for those of us who love music


----------



## Jawed

Did you notice a change in the sound staging ability of Utopia as it ran in? Did it become more expansive?

Do you use the crossfeed feature? I would imagine that would diminish the difference in sound staging between the two. If you like what crossfeed does, that is....

According to my scrobbles:

http://www.last.fm/user/Jawed/library?page=2

I've been listening to music for about 11 hours so far today with about another 4 to go (OK, there was a break for lunch), so listening for long periods of time is really normal for me. Perhaps that means I don't need to upgrade!


----------



## jlbrach

The Utopia's are fabulous..and they pair incredibly well with the Dave...before I bought them I thought the LCD-4 to be the best i ever heard but now I am not sure,one day I think it is the Utopia and the next the LCD-4...the thing is they are a completely different listening experience...the one thing they have in common is the Dave which is superlative.In terms of crossfeed  I am a bit of a tradionalist,I tried it but haven't used it much


----------



## drabbish

are most people just leaving the HF on regardless of music format?


----------



## JaZZ

I prefer the HF filter turned off. (With that I might be in the minority.)


----------



## x RELIC x

I also have the HF filter on mine turned off.


----------



## TheAttorney

I also prefer my HF filter turned off (playing exclusively redbook files). Ever so slightly more transparent, but the difference is too subtle for me to worry about this setting - and I haven't yet discounted imagination on this one. So I'm not too bothered if it's on or off. Unlike the absolute phase switch, which my OCD side is compelled to check for each album I play.
  
 Speaking of subtle differences, which of the 4 Display options do you guys prefer for best SQ?
 This is not _entirely_ a joke question


----------



## Mojo ideas

deftone said:


> Interesting, well i know my next DAC purchase will be the successor to Hugo (whenever it comes)


 Here speaks a wise man!


----------



## x RELIC x

theattorney said:


> I also prefer my HF filter turned off (playing exclusively redbook files). Ever so slightly more transparent, but the difference is too subtle for me to worry about this setting - and I haven't yet discounted imagination on this one. So I'm not too bothered if it's on or off. Unlike the absolute phase switch, which my OCD side is compelled to check for each album I play.
> 
> *Speaking of subtle differences, which of the 4 Display options do you guys prefer for best SQ?
> This is not entirely a joke question*




Lol, blacker background with option 4 when the screen turns off, of course!


----------



## Crgreen

When I first got my Dave, I didn't pay to much attention to what was upstream. After all, it was supposed to be pretty much immune to jitter, mains feed and different USB cables. In fact, after having bedded it, and my ears, in I found that such matters could make an appreciable difference. I'm no expert, and whether this is down to better RF rejection and/or something else I cannot say. But in my view, there are definite improvements to be had.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I went through a change of opinion on the HF Filter. 

Originally my sound was overly warm in the first place due to Olympica III speakers being slightly too much for my hifi room. The Filter added warmth and I kept it off because I didn't wish to compound the bass overload problem. Because of this it also had a negative affect on musicality for some reason. However, once I had the bass under control I found switching it ON (bear in mind also that I am only using Red Book frequency btw) gave a more relaxed presentation as well as being warmer. This was similar to my SQ experience of 88.2 kHz upsampling with the Red Ref III compared to basic 44.1 kHz. Warmer and more natural (relaxed), with the 'lower' frequency upsampling.


----------



## analogmusic

mojo ideas said:


> Here speaks a wise man!


 

 so is there a Hugo 2 on the way?


----------



## bmichels

analogmusic said:


> so is there a Hugo 2 on the way?


 
  
 that will be great if I could upgrade my 3 years old HUGO but I do not think this will hapend in the near future...


----------



## Christer

analogmusic said:


> so is there a Hugo 2 on the way?


 

 I  really wish there is a better HUGO Mark 2 on the way soon too.
 My HUGO, good as it sometimes is, rarely gets used in my 400 Pounds heavy-weight  speaker based main HIFI system, but will of course be in my handluggage together with my HD800 next week again.
 But after all the "moody behaviour" very unpredictable  SQ it has given me with speakers I really wish they will include proper galvanic isolation and proper rca connections coupled with even better SQ next time around.
 My  initial love affair with HUGO is definitely over.
 If M2 is sold  at a reasonable price I would sell HUGO one and buy Mark 2 if it  approaches SOTA in a portable format and is  still reasonably light weight.
 I am sure there must be  many things learnt both from MOJO and DAVE that could go into a HUGO MARK 2 with ease if there is a will to do so from Chord.
 And I am sure there will be a market for an improved HUGO M2 too.
 One more important thing I think is to bring out a new portable DAC where the battery once dead CAN  easily be changed without having to send the unit to Chord. It has not happened to me yet. But I think that together wih the RF problems and the flimsy  rca plugs and akwardly placed  far too small buttons are the main design flaws of an otherwise in many ways still quite good product when it works as intended.
 Even at Hugo´s current pricing I don´t expect to have to buy upgrade usb cabling and various jitterbugs and other add on isolators at all. Those things should be part and parcel of the product in the first place.And not as now, payable extras.
 Finally if  increased taps are actually the main reason behind the things all three current Chord Dacs do so well ie transients and timing and depth imho, there are obviously much more powerful  Xilinx FPGAs than when Hugo and even Mojo and DAVE were actually built.
 So yes please bring on  Hugo M2  asap, please.
 Can I audition or even buy one in Singapore next week?


----------



## miketlse

christer said:


> I  really wish there is a better HUGO Mark 2 on the way soon too.
> My HUGO, good as it sometimes is, rarely gets used in my 400 Pounds heavy-weight  speaker based main HIFI system, but will of course be in my handluggage together with my HD800 next week again.
> But after all the "moody behaviour" very unpredictable  SQ it has given me with speakers I really wish they will include proper galvanic isolation and proper rca connections coupled with even better SQ next time around.
> My  initial love affair with HUGO is definitely over.
> ...


 
  
 Rob Watts has already explained many times that you cannot have galvanic isolation in a mobile battery powered unit, because the increased current drain greatly reduces the time that the battery will last before needing recharging.
 So if you want a DAC with Hugo type sound quality, and galvanic isolation, then you have to buy a desktop based solution, and the two products already exist - 2Qute and Hugo TT.


----------



## maxh22

christer said:


> I  really wish there is a better HUGO Mark 2 on the way soon too.
> My HUGO, good as it sometimes is, rarely gets used in my 400 Pounds heavy-weight  speaker based main HIFI system, but will of course be in my handluggage together with my HD800 next week again.
> But after all the "moody behaviour" very unpredictable  SQ it has given me with speakers I really wish they will include proper galvanic isolation and proper rca connections coupled with even better SQ next time around.
> My  initial love affair with HUGO is definitely over.
> ...


 
 A Hugo MKII with double the tap length and same objective performance as Mojo would be Excellent!


----------



## Crgreen

If I've understood matters correctly, you can provide galvanic isolation to the Hugo with a device such as the Regen. I used this when I had my Hugo, and it did improve the sound. 

If the Hugo can't have galvanic isolation built in due to its use of batteries, how does the TT achieve this, as it also runs on batteries?


----------



## ubs28

It's more of a design choice rather than a limitation probably. I believe Rob has said that mobile devices don't need galvanic isolation which is why the Mojo and Hugo don't have it. 
  
 But shouldn't you guys be discussing this in Chord Hugo thread rather than in the Chord Dave thread?


----------



## miketlse

crgreen said:


> If I've understood matters correctly, you can provide galvanic isolation to the Hugo with a device such as the Regen. I used this when I had my Hugo, and it did improve the sound.
> 
> If the Hugo can't have galvanic isolation built in due to its use of batteries, how does the TT achieve this, as it also runs on batteries?


 
  
 Taken from Robs post #22815
  
 "So with toslink we do not get these problems as there is no common ground - so no RF noise, no distorted signals on the ground, and it will sound smoother with better depth against a noisy PC. But the problem can be almost eliminated by using a power efficient USB source that is battery powered - such as a mobile phone. But with noisy PC's the only way of solving it is to use galvanic isolation on the USB - but this draws power from the source, and we can't do that with mobile devices. All of Chord's desktop DAC's have galvanic isolation on the USB, and then you can't hear whether its a noisy PC or a mobile phone. In this case, USB sounds slightly better than optical, because we have the (tiny) timing benefits of USB."
  
 i should have also said the source batteries, so for mobile/portable devices like Mojo or Hugo, galvanic isolation will drain the phone or dap battery much faster.
 For desktop devices like 2Qute, hugo TT or DAVE, the power source comes from the mains power, so the batteries are not an issue.
 If the Regen needs to be powered by a mains power supply, then you are restricting the hugo to desktop use only. It was originally designed/marketed as a portable dac, and not a desktop dac.


----------



## Crgreen

I only ever used my Hugo as a desktop device, as do many.

I thought that the TT, like the Hugo, was powered by batteries, not mains power, but I stand corrected.


----------



## kennyb123

crgreen said:


> If I've understood matters correctly, you can provide galvanic isolation to the Hugo with a device such as the Regen. I used this when I had my Hugo, and it did improve the sound.




The Regen, while beneficial in many cases, does not galvanically isolate.


----------



## Deftone

mojo ideas said:


> Here speaks a wise man!


 
  
 Why thank you Mr Franks.


----------



## Crgreen

kennyb123 said:


> The Regen, while beneficial in many cases, does not galvanically isolate.




Sounds like I'm wrong on every point then. Perhaps I should just stop reading what people say about stuff. The Internet is a mine of disinformation.


----------



## ubs28

crgreen said:


> Sounds like I'm wrong on every point then. Perhaps I should just stop reading what people say about stuff. The Internet is a mine of disinformation.




Well, you can't reference to online sources for academic papers or a Master thesis without reason


----------



## Toolman

ubs28 said:


> But shouldn't you guys be discussing this in Chord Hugo thread rather than in the Chord Dave thread?


 
  
 Apparently guys just wants to discuss about other products in anywhere but the appropriate threads...


----------



## STR-1

crgreen said:


> If the Hugo can't have galvanic isolation built in due to its use of batteries, how does the TT achieve this, as it also runs on batteries?



The TT is run off its batteries (you are not wrong about this), which are charged from the mains, just like the Hugo. Galvanic isolation draws more power from the batteries, which, if not contunuosly recharged from the mains, will drain more quickly. That is why it is usually not a good idea to use galvanic isolation with a portable dac.


----------



## Crgreen

toolman said:


> Apparently guys just wants to discuss about other products in anywhere but the appropriate threads...




The original point was raised in this forum, and one issue leads to another. Seriously, what possible harm can it do? Plus, it affords the opportunity to get righteous, always a good feeling


----------



## Crgreen

str-1 said:


> The TT is run off its batteries (you are not wrong about this), which are charged from the mains, just like the Hugo. Galvanic isolation draws more power from the batteries, which, if not contunuosly recharged from the mains, will drain more quickly. That is why it is usually not a good idea to use galvanic isolation with a portable dac.




So I was correct on one point. On the other, can someone explain why the Regen doesn't provide galvanic isolation?


----------



## x RELIC x

crgreen said:


> So I was correct on one point. On the other, can someone explain why the Regen doesn't provide galvanic isolation?




You'd get a better response in the appropriate thread for specifics about the Regen. Personally, I wouldn't use one with the DAVE.

Here it is for you. :wink_face:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/762967/uptone-audio-usb-regen


----------



## Crgreen

x relic x said:


> You'd get a better response in the appropriate thread for specifics about the Regen. Personally, I wouldn't use one with the DAVE.
> 
> Here it is for you. :wink_face:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/762967/uptone-audio-usb-regen




Since someone in this thread said the Regen doesn't provide galvanic isolation, it seem d a natural enough question to ask. Frankly, I'm not that bothered.

I don't use a Regen with the Dave, but I do use a PS Audio LANRover. However, since this is not a Chord product, nor a boutique brand, and contains no magnets, it's probably best discussed elsewhere


----------



## x RELIC x

crgreen said:


> Since someone in this thread said the Regen doesn't provide galvanic isolation, it seem d a natural enough question to ask. Frankly, I'm not that bothered.
> 
> I don't use a Regen with the Dave, but I do use a PS Audio LANRover. However, since this is not a Chord product, nor a boutique brand, and contains no magnets, it's probably best discussed elsewhere




I'm not bothered either. I just thought I'd give you a direct path to the answer to your question as it's been discussed recently in the Regen specific thread (skip to the last page for your answers).


----------



## Crgreen

Apologies. It does indeed provide an answer.


----------



## EVOLVIST

kennyb123 said:


> The Regen, while beneficial in many cases, does not galvanically isolate.




The Regen inside of the microRendu galvanically isolates, which is very fortuitous when used with the DAVE.


----------



## kennyb123

crgreen said:


> So I was correct on one point. On the other, can someone explain why the Regen doesn't provide galvanic isolation?


 
  
 John Swenson explains:
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-isolator-advice-needed-23475/#post401322
  
 I believe this is true about the microRendu too.


----------



## Christer

miketlse said:


> Rob Watts has already explained many times that you cannot have galvanic isolation in a mobile battery powered unit, because the increased current drain greatly reduces the time that the battery will last before needing recharging.
> So if you want a DAC with Hugo type sound quality, and galvanic isolation, then you have to buy a desktop based solution, and the two products already exist - 2Qute and Hugo TT.


 

 But the question remains, is it technically impossible to include proper galvanic isolation in a portable product? Or is it just the question of  it needing a better more powerful battery?
 A HUGO Mark II or portable DAVE if you will, could have twice or quadruple or maybe even ten times? the capacity of the current tiny battery in HUGO  and still be small and portable enough for more serious use than playing music while jogging or whatever the original purpose  of miniature pocketable DACs  like HUGO and Mojo were, couldn´t it?
 What I am trying to say is that I am sure that apart from me there must be many others who want a truly highend DAC that can both be used in a HIFI system and with headphones equally easily. And  still provide SOTA SQ in an easily portable/batttery powered format.
 And have enough power to drive even some real heavy-weight power-hungry headphones around with  ease.
 Hugo struggled a bit with HEK for example compared to both DAVE and Benchmark DAC2 which drives it easily.
 And frankly good as it can sound even my HD800 sound a bit thin  and lacking in body,via HUGO compared to both  DAVE and my Benchmark DAC 2 HGC.
 I travelled with my Benchmark two winters before I got my HUGO. And if Chord were to bring out a new  portable DAC even twice the size and weight of HUGO that still runs on batteries and has near DAVE  SOTA SQ,it would still be less than half the size and weight of my Benchmark DAC 2 HGC which has to be plugged in to work. I would of course balk at any  big price increase over HUGO. Mojo has already proven what can be done at an even cheaper than HUGO 1 price.
 It just takes a wise man to get  it done, doesn´t it?


----------



## Mojo ideas

christer said:


> But the question remains, is it technically impossible to include proper galvanic isolation in a portable product? Or is it just the question of  it needing a better more powerful battery?
> A HUGO Mark II or portable DAVE if you will, could have twice or quadruple or maybe even ten times? the capacity of the current tiny battery in HUGO  and still be small and portable enough for more serious use than playing music while jogging or whatever the original purpose  of miniature pocketable DACs  like HUGO and Mojo were, couldn´t it?
> What I am trying to say is that I am sure that apart from me there must be many others who want a truly highend DAC that can both be used in a HIFI system and with headphones equally easily. And  still provide SOTA SQ in an easily portable/batttery powered format.
> And have enough power to drive even some real heavy-weight power-hungry headphones around with  ease.
> ...


 It's about the power drain from the hoste device due the the USB circuitry having to be powered from the power over the USB from the source device in order to provide the necessarry high frequency isolation so that higher sample data rates can be achieved and played it's not really about powering it from the Mojo''s or indeed the Hugo's batteries.


----------



## ecwl

I thought galvanic isolation has been addressed eons ago but it's hard to go through 357 pages. My understanding from Rob Watts has said in the past is that to get galvanic isolation, the USB receiver is powered by the source, be it your laptop/tablet/smartphone. Since Apple limits the power draw from their Lightning/USB port, if you have a well-done galvanically isolated USB input, the product becomes incompatible with iOS products. Obviously, it is possible in the future that there are USB receivers that would draw less power. But still you'll always be draining your phones' batteries faster if the DAC is galvanically isolated.


----------



## TheAttorney

> *Speaking of subtle differences, which of the 4 Display options do you guys prefer for best SQ?
> This is not entirely a joke question*





x relic x said:


> Lol, blacker background with option 4 when the screen turns off, of course!


 
 Yes, that is exactly the right answer! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Don't get me wrong, I really like the display, and the colour options, and the way the colours change with status. And I usually have Display 1 or 3 on constantly when audiophiling around.
 But when I'm simply enjoying music, the OCD in me always goes for Display 4. It's so subtle it may well be my imagination, but it's just what I do.


----------



## Mython

theattorney said:


> > *Speaking of subtle differences, which of the 4 Display options do you guys prefer for best SQ?
> > This is not entirely a joke question*
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Even the most resolving DAC on planet earth does not claim to be able to cure customers' OCD  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




      Sorry if your dealer led you to believe it cures all that ails you! LOL


----------



## miketlse (Aug 23, 2020)

theattorney said:


> Yes, that is exactly the right answer!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The display can generate some noise for a short while on the Hugo TT - do you experience any similar noise.


http://www.head-fi.org/t/756029/chord-hugo-tt-high-end-dac-amp-impressions-thread/510#post_12717470


----------



## Mavwong

Is there a place where the designer talk about it? As far as I understand only the Ethernet input side is Galv isolated.
  
 Quote:


evolvist said:


> The Regen inside of the microRendu galvanically isolates, which is very fortuitous when used with the DAVE.


----------



## EVOLVIST

From my understanding the USB output is, explained somewhere on CA. But the Ethernet port can't be guaranteed, though, can it, because so much depends on the type of cable you use, yes?

Well, anyway, I'm not an expert on the subject since I've just now began dabbling into this sort of thing.


----------



## Hubert H

petem said:


> Has anyone done a direct comparison between the DAVE & older QBD76 HDSD?  I've owned the QBD76 for quite some time now & really like it but thinking about an upgrade.  Have already tried the Hugo TT but it really didn't do it for me -- I also found it somewhat "thin"...


 

 Hi Pete, I started off with the DAC64 back in 2002 and moved to a BLU and DAC64 MkII a few years later. I could hear shortcomings in the DAC64 but they were outweighed by the positives. As soon as the QBD76 came out I went for a listen and was impressed by how much better than the DAC64 it was, everything being a step up, especially the bottom end.
  
 A couple of years ago I bought an Indigo with the HDSD upgrade. One big advantage of the Indigo was the integrated analogue volume control of the Chord CPA5000, I'd never considered my CPA4000 to flavour the sound before and no other pre-amp I'd heard was as transparent. The Indigo changed that. I sold the QBD and CPA4000 for a fair bit more than the unloved Indigo cost and ended up with a better source connected directly to my SPM1400’s. By the way, the DAC implementation in the Indigo sounded better than the QBD76's - not by much though.
  
 The Indigo also has a single analogue input so when I loaned a Dave back at the beginning of February for a month (thanks to Fanthorpes), I was able to compare the 2 DACs like for like. For me the difference was initially a bit more subtle, I had to listen back and forth to hear what was actually going on whereas with the DAC64/QBD76 comparison it was clear. There were a few things that jumped out, the most disconcerting of which was the speed of the music, it just seemed quicker, more pace.
  
 The QBD76 doesn't get blown away by the Dave, it just gets slightly humbled by it. The Dave does everything a bit better, one can still hear the same information but it's fleshed out, textured, located a bit better.
  
 One caveat to this though, I messed around with a few cables before Dave and never noticed much of a change. A few weeks ago I hooked up some different speaker cables and could hear the difference immediately and then less obviously with a change of interconnect between Dave and the amps. A bit of sensible tweaking to Dave’s connected environment may lead to further audible gains.
  
 H.


----------



## PeteM

hubert h said:


> Hi Pete, I started off with the DAC64 back in 2002 and moved to a BLU and DAC64 MkII a few years later. I could hear shortcomings in the DAC64 but they were outweighed by the positives. As soon as the QBD76 came out I went for a listen and was impressed by how much better than the DAC64 it was, everything being a step up, especially the bottom end.
> 
> A couple of years ago I bought an Indigo with the HDSD upgrade. One big advantage of the Indigo was the integrated analogue volume control of the Chord CPA5000, I'd never considered my CPA4000 to flavour the sound before and no other pre-amp I'd heard was as transparent. The Indigo changed that. I sold the QBD and CPA4000 for a fair bit more than the unloved Indigo cost and ended up with a better source connected directly to my SPM1400’s. By the way, the DAC implementation in the Indigo sounded better than the QBD76's - not by much though.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for your reply Hubert, I appreciate it.  Looks like the DAVE could be well worth a demo in that case.  The rest of the system is pretty revealing so it should show up any differences.
  
 Pete.


----------



## analogmusic

I wonder if the QBD76 has the same 3D depth of sound stage of the Dave?
  
 For me when I auditioned Hugo TT vs Dave, the Dave to my ears, during that audition, was much better than the TT.
  
 TT sounded like a recording, Dave sounded like a live event right in front of me. Each instrument had it's own space in the 3d sound stage, quite spectacular.


----------



## ecwl

It seems everyone's experience of DAVE vs QBD76 is different. For me, I use DAVE & QBD76HDSD via USB input. Moreover, I had the QBD76HDSD direct to amp so I was digitally attenuating volume in 24-bit to feed the QBD76HDSD. I found the sound between DAVE and QBD76HDSD night and day. This may partly be due to RF noise from the USB into the QBD76HDSD. The realism and timbre of sound, the better timing of transients for every instrument just blows the QBD76HDSD out of the water. Moreover, it's not so much the improved soundstage depth for me going from the QBD76HDSD to DAVE, it's actually the improved 3-dimensionality of the sound where each instrument and each vocal feels like they occupy their own space in my living room, as opposed to the QBD76HDSD where by comparison each instrument sounds flat in space (which I guess is related to depth perception). I think as with everything else, YMMV probably because everyone's setup is different.
  
 As a total aside I actually wonder for a time whether the Chord Mojo has better realism and timbre of sound and better timing of transients compared to the QBD76HDSD although the QBD76HDSD has a lower noise floor and better soundstage depth compared to the Mojo. But I didn't really spend much time doing that comparison.


----------



## PeteM

ecwl said:


> It seems everyone's experience of DAVE vs QBD76 is different. For me, I use *DAVE & QBD76HDSD via USB input*. Moreover, I had the QBD76HDSD direct to amp so I was digitally attenuating volume in 24-bit to feed the QBD76HDSD. I found the sound between DAVE and QBD76HDSD night and day. *This may partly be due to RF noise from the USB into the QBD76HDSD*. The realism and timbre of sound, the better timing of transients for every instrument just blows the QBD76HDSD out of the water. Moreover, it's not so much the improved soundstage depth for me going from the QBD76HDSD to DAVE, it's actually the improved 3-dimensionality of the sound where each instrument and each vocal feels like they occupy their own space in my living room, as opposed to the QBD76HDSD where by comparison each instrument sounds flat in space (which I guess is related to depth perception). I think as with everything else, YMMV probably because everyone's setup is different.


 
 I have a feeling this is the case.  Although I haven't heard the DAVE as yet, I was impressed by the USB input on the Hugo TT -- it seemed pretty much immune to what was plugged into it, at least in my setup.  That's potentially worth the cost of admission alone once the cost of a decent computer audio setup is factored in...


----------



## Hubert H

ecwl said:


> It seems everyone's experience of DAVE vs QBD76 is different. For me, I use DAVE & QBD76HDSD via USB input. Moreover, I had the QBD76HDSD direct to amp so I was digitally attenuating volume in 24-bit to feed the QBD76HDSD. I found the sound between DAVE and QBD76HDSD night and day. This may partly be due to RF noise from the USB into the QBD76HDSD. The realism and timbre of sound, the better timing of transients for every instrument just blows the QBD76HDSD out of the water. Moreover, it's not so much the improved soundstage depth for me going from the QBD76HDSD to DAVE, it's actually the improved 3-dimensionality of the sound where each instrument and each vocal feels like they occupy their own space in my living room, as opposed to the QBD76HDSD where by comparison each instrument sounds flat in space (which I guess is related to depth perception). I think as with everything else, YMMV probably because everyone's setup is different.
> 
> As a total aside I actually wonder for a time whether the Chord Mojo has better realism and timbre of sound and better timing of transients compared to the QBD76HDSD although the QBD76HDSD has a lower noise floor and better soundstage depth compared to the Mojo. But I didn't really spend much time doing that comparison.


 

 It could be the way the attenuation was done, it could be because my listening was done with the BLU in dual data mode or it could be that we heard similar changes but reference them differently
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 H.


----------



## organicmac

Recently ordered DAVE and hoping to use eventually with new Chord digital power amp when available.
 I was wondering could Rob or colleague comment on potential subwoofer use with the new amplifier - I presume a subwoofer connected to DAVE's analogue output would not be suitable?
  
 Andrew


----------



## EVOLVIST

hubert h said:


> The QBD76 doesn't get blown away by the Dave, it just gets slightly humbled by it. The Dave does everything a bit better, one can still hear the same information but it's fleshed out, textured, located a bit better.


 
  
 Indeed, it's been mentioned in this thread, if not straight up stated to be a fact, that our ears are so used to hearing music played back in a mechanical manner that we have been acclimated to an artificial sound which has become the norm. If we hold this statement to be true, then any upgrade, even if we were at 500,000 taps at the moment, might not register as immediately apparent to the ears as it would to the brain. Well, I mean, I have no idea what 500,000 taps would sound like actually, but I can only theorize. It might be a huge jump between 166k.
  
 Actually I just used your post as a catalyst for my thoughts, and not necessarily addressing you specifically. Because...
  
 I had this dream. No joke, I actually dreamt this, that I went to the Chord factory, and I was hanging out with John Franks and Rob, along with some smoking hot employee of theirs, and for some reason (although this wouldn't happen in real life), Rob let me listen to a "DAVE" that was already at a little over 1million taps, but he explained that he couldn't put it out yet because they need to make money on the 500k, 750k tap models, first, otherwise they would kill their own market. I knew this made business sense - even if it was screwed up - but man, it left me feeling pretty hollow. Rob said, "I mean, why wouldn't I have already reached 1million taps, when all it is is a matter of programing." I was shocked!
  
 Anyway, of course it wasn't real life. I actually woke up not thinking about Chord, but more like, "What if they already have the cure of cancer, but they'd never let us know because there goes all the big money for doctors, pharmaceuticals, hospitals and the like."
  
 Why am I writing all of this? Well, I guess I just have the DAVE on my mind. It really is a brilliant piece of gear.


----------



## Rob Watts

organicmac said:


> Recently ordered DAVE and hoping to use eventually with new Chord digital power amp when available.
> I was wondering could Rob or colleague comment on potential subwoofer use with the new amplifier - I presume a subwoofer connected to DAVE's analogue output would not be suitable?
> 
> Andrew


 
  
 You can run it that way for sure. Or use two power amps (that's why the DX outputs are 4). I guess I will need to have a volume trim function on the amps, when its in DX mode, so one can have differing gains. It won't be difficult to do as master volume is sent digitally, so adding a fixed volume offset is easy.
  
 Rob


----------



## Crgreen

I know this might sound heretical, but it is possible to be happy with what you've got, enjoy stimulating music, and not worry where the next upgrade's coming from. Before I embarked on decades of upgrading, did I appreciate and enjoy music less? Not really. Do I regret it? A little bit. It's not the most cost effective way to spend money, and I could probably have got to the same point for much less, though of course I didn't know how to get there before I did (if that makes sense).

There's always room for improvement, in everything, but dissatisfaction is a largely negative frame of mind which can never be sated as it's objects are endless, and it provides little reward. (If you're an engineer, the position is rather different.)


----------



## ubs28

Which version do you guys think looks best, the black or the silver version?


----------



## maxh22

ubs28 said:


> Which version do you guys think looks best, the black or the silver version?


 
 I think it's time for there to be a 'Golden' edition of Dave


----------



## Kamil21

maxh22 said:


> I think it's time for there to be a 'Golden' edition of Dave :bigsmile_face:




Not too far fetched. This carved from copper, gold plated, premium components Sony sells for twice the price of their regular Walkman. They claim it sounds better due to lower resistance and lower noise..


----------



## Ashrunner

ubs28 said:


> Which version do you guys think looks best, the black or the silver version?


 

 I ordered the black version on Tuesday.  Normally, I prefer silver, but after seeing the black in person, I much preferred it.  It isn't a generic, black box plastic-like electronics black.  Rather, seems artisanal and industrial with lots of color tones and heft.  I think my historic preference for silver may be related to the apple mac vs pc black box battle of my childhood - was always an apple guy before it was cool to be an apple guy.  But guess I'm on team black now.


----------



## supabayes

ubs28 said:


> Which version do you guys think looks best, the black or the silver version?


 
  
 Silver is nice. 

  
 Black is better match to the Utopia and 800S imho.


----------



## Toolman

I'm going for a black Dave to go with my LAu, possibly with the stand as well...but anyone here thought that black version could be a dust magnet?


----------



## maxh22

kamil21 said:


> Not too far fetched. This carved from copper, gold plated, premium components Sony sells for twice the price of their regular Walkman. They claim it sounds better due to lower resistance and lower noise..


 
 If Sony and Lampizator can do it, Chord can too! 
  
 A golden Dave would really stand out both in sonics and appearances. It would be a great show piece and would strike some very meaningful conversations!


----------



## Toolman

maxh22 said:


> I think it's time for there to be a 'Golden' edition of Dave


 
  
 A big chunk of gold on my desk? loved it...but no


----------



## supabayes

maxh22 said:


> I think it's time for there to be a 'Golden' edition of Dave


 

 I second that. A Gold Dave will be a perfect match for the €100,000 Focal Utopia by Tournaire. It will have to be precision-milled from solid gold and to be priced at €2M. Why? because gold is about 7 times more dense than aluminium, so a solid gold Dave will probably weigh 50kg and the cost of gold alone will be over €1.8M


----------



## Christer

crgreen said:


> I know this might sound heretical, but it is possible to be happy with what you've got, enjoy stimulating music, and not worry where the next upgrade's coming from. Before I embarked on decades of upgrading, did I appreciate and enjoy music less? Not really. Do I regret it? A little bit. It's not the most cost effective way to spend money, and I could probably have got to the same point for much less, though of course I didn't know how to get there before I did (if that makes sense).
> 
> There's always room for improvement, in everything, but dissatisfaction is a largely negative frame of mind which can never be sated as it's objects are endless, and it provides little reward. (If you're an engineer, the position is rather different.)


 

 I definitely agree with you, while I would of course not mind  owning a DAVE and the best speakers I have ever heard, I am quite happy with what I have got .
 During the past six months  back  home in Sweden I have mainly been playing my  classical music via speakers and at least 85 % of my very enjoyable listening sessions sometimes for many hours on end my main playback source has been my faithful old Linn Sondek LP12 with its still superb sounding Supex MC cartridge often very realistically reproducing much of the standard classical repertoire via the classic 60s and 70s recordings by the great orchestras and conductors of my youth.Today while picking up my flight tickets in town I made a musical bargain at a thrift shop that can only be played via my LP12. Mozart´s Opera  La Clemenza di Tito, on a three LP set with Colin Davis conducting the Covent Garden Opera House orchestra .
 It  will be my evening entertainment for roughly 50 cents per LP.
  Maybe not with quite  the same dynamic range as the best modern digital recordings but with a sense of musicality and joy that many digital recordings even in hi res much less rbcd reach.
 My  Linn Sondek LP12 is easily the best HI FI buy I have ever made and still gives me great musical enjoyment on a daily basis at home after all these years.
 I have said so before and I say it again, even in pure SQ terms with a direct cut LP it can still rival most digital I have heard in important aspects.
 But from next week and six months  ahead ,I will mainly  have to listen  via headphones and HUGO again.


----------



## supabayes

toolman said:


> I'm going for a black Dave to go with my LAu, possibly with the stand as well...but anyone here thought that black version could be a dust magnet?


 

 No dust issue for me so far. No fingerprint marks as well. Go for the black.


----------



## maxh22

supabayes said:


> I second that. A Gold Dave will be a perfect match for the €100,000 Focal Utopia by Tournaire. It will have to be precision-milled from solid gold and to be priced at €2M. Why? because gold is about 7 times more dense than aluminium, so a solid gold Dave will probably weigh 50kg and the cost of gold alone will be over €1.8M


 
 Yes!! A real Golden Dave would be the perfect target market for those that only listen to their wallet. They will buy it and not even question other dacs because it's the most expensive dac the market has to offer


----------



## ubs28

I have the silver version because it matches with my macbook and the Taurus MKII.

But I do wonder if I did not make a mistake with the colour. Never saw the black version in person.


----------



## Mython

supabayes said:


> maxh22 said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's time for there to be a 'Golden' edition of Dave
> ...


 
  
  
 LOL - reminds me of these:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/654761/monster-unveils-new-20-000-30-000-headphones
  
  
 A gold DAVE might actually have some merits, but I would not consider aesthetics to be one of them.
  
 It'd probably go down a storm in the middle east and the far east.


----------



## Music Alchemist

I have been fascinated by all the info in this thread, especially the technical explanations and the fact that so many people think the DAVE sounds better than any other DAC regardless of price. Hopefully the DAVE will be the only expensive DAC I ever buy. (Since it's a little over $8,000 in the UK instead of over $13,000 like it is in the US, that's low enough to forget about all the others I had my eye on.)
  


ubs28 said:


> Which version do you guys think looks best, the black or the silver version?


 
  
 I usually prefer black electronics, but for some reason the black DAVE just turns me off. However, the silver DAVE is _gorgeous!_
  


Spoiler: Here's a great pic










  


ashrunner said:


> I ordered the black version on Tuesday.


 
  
 Oh, sweet. Did you send someone to the UK like we discussed?


----------



## supabayes

ubs28 said:


> I have the silver version because it matches with my macbook and the Taurus MKII.
> 
> But I do wonder if I did not make a mistake with the colour. Never saw the black version in person.


 
  
 LoL ... I am hopeful for black macbook to be reintroduced since iphone7 are in jet black
  

  
 Until then, the black cover on my MBP15 will do. #madaboutblack #blackiphone #blackdave #blackutopia #blackmac


----------



## esimms86

Does any of this change if Chord releases the digital amp and Davina only in silver? (Not saying they will but if they do...)


----------



## Toolman

A thinner (and longer battery life) MBP15" Retina in gun metal chrome will ticked my boxes and replaced both my 16 months old MBP15 & MBA11


----------



## TheAttorney

> Originally Posted by *Music Alchemist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Hopefully the DAVE will be the only expensive DAC I ever buy. (Since it's a little over $8,000 in the UK instead of over $13,000 like it is in the US, that's low enough to forget about all the others I had my eye on.)


 
 It's £8,000 in the UK. Pounds not Dollars. I know the Brexit pound has taken an, erm, pounding in recent months, but you still have to apply approximately a 1.2 ratio (it was about 1.5 before the Brexit vote).
 OTOH, the $ cost may now have dropped as result of Brexit - depends if the importers have passed on the drop yet.


----------



## Music Alchemist

theattorney said:


> It's £8,000 in the UK. Pounds not Dollars. I know the Brexit pound has taken an, erm, pounding in recent months, but you still have to apply approximately a 1.2 ratio (it was about 1.5 before the Brexit vote).
> OTOH, the $ cost may now have dropped as result of Brexit - depends if the importers have passed on the drop yet.


 
  
 It's £6,625 (under $8,100) from this dealer:
  
 http://www.audiosanctuary.co.uk/chord-dave-dac-headphone-amplifier.html
  
 Edit: This price does not apply to UK citizens.


----------



## TheAttorney

When I go to that site, I see £7,950, which is the standard price in the UK (some dealers round it up to £8k)


----------



## miketlse

ubs28 said:


> I have the silver version because it matches with my macbook and the Taurus MKII.
> 
> But I do wonder if I did not make a mistake with the colour. Never saw the black version in person.


 
  
 Get the black version as well - you know you want to.
 LOL


----------



## Kamil21

theattorney said:


> When I go to that site, I see £7,950, which is the standard price in the UK (some dealers round it up to £8k)




That is the price with VAT or sales tax. The software decides on whether to add on the tax based on your location. I believe the lower price of £6,625 does not include the standard UK VAT of 20%.


----------



## Music Alchemist

theattorney said:


> When I go to that site, I see £7,950, which is the standard price in the UK (some dealers round it up to £8k)


 
  
 That's because you're in the UK. Click the Change Country option in the top-right corner, then select United States and it will show the price I mentioned. I guess it's because UK citizens have to pay VAT, as stated above.


----------



## nepherte

music alchemist said:


> That's because you're in the UK. Click the Change Country option in the top-right corner, then select United States and it will show the price I mentioned. I'm not sure how all that works. It makes it seem like they are offering lower prices to those from other countries. It does make sense that UK citizens would have to pay VAT and so on, as stated above.


 

 You wouldn't need to pay UK VAT but you still need to pay import tax for the US no?


----------



## Music Alchemist

nepherte said:


> You wouldn't need to pay UK VAT but you still need to pay import tax for the US no?


 
  
 Yeah (unless you sneak it in), but that's just a few hundred dollars.


----------



## Mojo ideas

supabayes said:


> I second that. A Gold Dave will be a perfect match for the €100,000 Focal Utopia by Tournaire. It will have to be precision-milled from solid gold and to be priced at €2M. Why? because gold is about 7 times more dense than aluminium, so a solid gold Dave will probably weigh 50kg and the cost of gold alone will be over €1.8M


. Yes it could be made in solid 24carrot gold we'd need to cast the blocks to machine first then another for the lid before machining. They would be about eight or nine million pounds sterling worth as the solid blocks display ring and top plate so if any of you want that very special present for yourself please let us know


----------



## Hubert H

evolvist said:


> Indeed, it's been mentioned in this thread, if not straight up stated to be a fact, that our ears are so used to hearing music played back in a mechanical manner that we have been acclimated to an artificial sound which has become the norm. If we hold this statement to be true, then any upgrade, even if we were at 500,000 taps at the moment, might not register as immediately apparent to the ears as it would to the brain. Well, I mean, I have no idea what 500,000 taps would sound like actually, but I can only theorize. It might be a huge jump between 166k.....


 
   
It also depends on what one listens to but the telling aspect is that I now listen louder and longer, indeed I suspect if the QBD/Indigo was put back in the system I would be surprised at the difference.


----------



## Hubert H

ubs28 said:


> Which version do you guys think looks best, the black or the silver version?


 

 I had the silver on dem and bought the black. The black seems to disguise some of the clunky design, plus I use display 2 so it all looks rather discreet.
  
 H.


----------



## Mython

mojo ideas said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 All that additional expenditure and, _ironically,_ it would (IMO) look cheap & tacky  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
 DAVE looks just great in black or silver, and _*more importantly*_, I'm sure DAVE *sounds* great, too


----------



## organicmac

organicmac said:


> Recently ordered DAVE and hoping to use eventually with new Chord digital power amp when available.
> I was wondering could Rob or colleague comment on potential subwoofer use with the new amplifier - I presume a subwoofer connected to DAVE's analogue output would not be suitable?
> 
> Andrew


 
  


rob watts said:


> You can run it that way for sure. Or use two power amps (that's why the DX outputs are 4). I guess I will need to have a volume trim function on the amps, when its in DX mode, so one can have differing gains. It won't be difficult to do as master volume is sent digitally, so adding a fixed volume offset is easy.
> 
> Rob


 
 Many thanks. Is there any pathway envisaged for multi-channel usage with DAVE or other Chord DAC's?


----------



## GeneralSensible

Hi everyone, this will be my first post on this forum. I've read through all 360 or so pages (really!) and now I think it's time for me to ask a question (actually 2 questions).
 
DAVE arrived at his new home yesterday and after some fiddling around with cables and a MACmini I got it to produce it's first sounds. Already cold out of the box it did sound splendid, but right now I will let it run in for a couple of days before I will do some serious listening.
 
I already do have some questions were I think your marvelous forum probably will have the answers to.
 
First the remote. My DAVE came with a completely different remote than the one which is shown in the "user manual". Mine is a little black box, with only a few buttons where in the manual there is a larger silver model with a lot of buttons displayed. Is this normal for the newer DAVEs or what's the matter? Thing is that for instance I can not change phase with the remote, which isn't very nice because you best change this setting while sitting in the sweet spot. Is something broken or does this remote also suffer from the remote-problems which are already mentioned in this thread?
 
Second question I have is about polarity. Here in Europe we use so-called CEE 7/4 or CEE7/7 Schuko AC powerplug, Schuko sockets are unpolarised, there is no way of differentiating between the two live contacts, so the plug can be used in two ways (you can turn them upside-down). With some equipment it is necessary to do a polarity check for the best sound. I was wondering if DAVE is sensitive about polarity and if so, what is the best way to connect the device?  In other words, which pin to use for live and which one for zero?
 
Thanks for your answers.
Peter.


----------



## Hubert H

My black Dave on an old Choral rack with the sides removed. It's switch on, select music and forget about the electronics (sorry about the iPhone photo, it exagerates the displays somewhat);


----------



## Ashrunner

nepherte said:


> You wouldn't need to pay UK VAT but you still need to pay import tax for the US no?


 
 Yeah, but the import tax on $8100 of stereo equipment is only about $350. I guarantee you that folks are already importing and reselling given the pound/dollar delta that currently exists.


----------



## GryphonGuy

ubs28 said:


> Which version do you guys think looks best, the black or the silver version?


 
  
 Mine is black. It fits with the rest of my hi-fi gear. Black is beautiful as they say.
  
 GG


----------



## Rob Watts

generalsensible said:


> Hi everyone, this will be my first post on this forum. I've read through all 360 or so pages (really!) and now I think it's time for me to ask a question (actually 2 questions).
> 
> DAVE arrived at his new home yesterday and after some fiddling around with cables and a MACmini I got it to produce it's first sounds. Already cold out of the box it did sound splendid, but right now I will let it run in for a couple of days before I will do some serious listening.
> 
> ...


 
 Yes Chord have a new remote, and its functionally identical to the old one. 
  
 I suspect that there will be no difference in SQ by switching the Schuko over, as internally its transformer coupled, so there is no hot or cold as far as Dave is concerned. But give it a go, and the warmer sounding one would be the better as that would indicate lower overall RF noise levels. But my guess is it won't make a difference.
  
 Rob


----------



## analogmusic

Both Silver and Black look good to me, but I placed an order for the Black Dave as the rest of my existing hi-fi kit is black.
  
 Rob Watts can comment more on this, but my Hugo and Mojo sounded great out of the box. Any running in that happened was more of brain running in (adjusting to better timing of transients) than anything else.


----------



## x RELIC x

analogmusic said:


> Both Silver and Black look good to me, but I placed an order for the Black Dave as the rest of my existing hi-fi kit is black.
> 
> *Rob Watts can comment more on this*, but my Hugo and Mojo sounded great out of the box. Any running in that happened was more of brain running in (adjusting to better timing of transients) than anything else.




He already has a few times. Here are some of his relevant posts from older to newer:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3090#post_12600875



Spoiler: Warm up time






rob watts said:


> It was and yet I was making a point. When I designed Dave I never intended it to be transportable, but that is how I have ended up using it.
> 
> When traveling, I use Mojo, then when I get into the hotel out comes Dave. Stone cold, within 10 minutes the SQ is up to speed and via headphones then never changes after about 10 minutes. No messing, or trouble, just the simple pleasure of enjoying music....
> 
> Rob







http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3360#post_12657755



Spoiler: Rob's thoughts on burn-in






rob watts said:


> Yes I would be very surprised if Dave did have any significant break in, but brain break in is very real - to me at least.
> 
> But break in can be a major hardware issue. In the 1980's my products did suffer from break in, and in the early 90's my DAC's (PDM or DSD DAC's not pulse array) were very variable.
> 
> ...







http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3525#post_12709179



Spoiler: Rob's pre-production DAVE vs a production unit






rob watts said:


> I listened to a fresh brand new Dave against my treasured and somewhat beaten up pre-production unit, that has thousands of hours on the clock.
> 
> The new unit was a bit brighter than mine; but it was also more transparent - particularly with ambient details - I heard some studio reverb put in on Nora Jones that I have not heard before. It seemed to be more transparent when things were loud - but small details and depth perception were the same on the two units.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rob Watts

analogmusic said:


> Both Silver and Black look good to me, but I placed an order for the Black Dave as the rest of my existing hi-fi kit is black.
> 
> Rob Watts can comment more on this, but my Hugo and Mojo sounded great out of the box. Any running in that happened was more of brain running in (adjusting to better timing of transients) than anything else.


 
  
 Yes they do sound - again IMHO - great out of the box. If you are not knocked out on first listen, its either Dave is not to your taste (some like artificial softness, some like hard etched sounds) or your system is flawed.
  
 Eight times out of ten, plugging Dave in just sounds glorious - cavernous sound-stage and I say to myself "Dave has entered the building". One time out of ten I need to seriously tweak or change the system to get Dave to sing. But one time in ten it just sounds terribly flat and un-emotional and there is nothing that can be done; Dave isn't magic, it can't cure a fundamentally ill system.
  
 Another factor is I get the impression that Dave highlights the differences between headphones much more easily. I guess that is due to Dave being transparent, so having less sound signature means the differences on headphones become much more marked.
  
 But by far the biggest variable is stuck between one's ears. I enjoy reading these threads, but sometimes I see a post about gear that I know very well, and simply can't understand the poster's impressions. So try to listen yourself, and follow your own opinion. But remember - its just an opinion, based on that time, with that piece of music, with your current set of tastes, on that particular system - and your impressions maybe wrong. I always constantly redo listening tests, as one can never be 100% certain (actually one can never be 100% certain about anything in life).
  
 Rob


----------



## x RELIC x

rob watts said:


> Yes they do sound - again IMHO - great out of the box. If you are not knocked out on first listen, its either Dave is not to your taste (some like artificial softness, some like hard etched sounds) or your system is flawed.
> 
> Eight times out of ten, plugging Dave in just sounds glorious - cavernous sound-stage and I say to myself "Dave has entered the building". One time out of ten I need to seriously tweak or change the system to get Dave to sing. But one time in ten it just sounds terribly flat and un-emotional and there is nothing that can be done; Dave isn't magic, it can't cure a fundamentally ill system.
> 
> ...




This point that I highlit in bold, Rob, is what actually struck me the most when I first heard the Mojo. Much more so than with anything I'd heard previously. I was really surprised by this. With the DAVE it's similar but slightly more so in regard to depth and soundstage, which isn't too far fetched considering the differences between the Mojo and DAVE.


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes I can see the effect would happen with Mojo too. I guess I have spent much more time with Dave plugging lots of different headphones in!


----------



## x RELIC x

rob watts said:


> Yes I can see the effect would happen with Mojo too. I guess I have spent much more time with Dave plugging lots of different headphones in!




I could well imagine! 

With the DAVE I somewhat expected it compared to the surprise I had when I first heard it with Mojo. Anyway, good points Rob.


----------



## AndrewOld

Any chance someone could post a picture of the new DAVE remote?


----------



## Shini44

Getting DAVE next month, by the end of NOV. wanted to know, do i need to burn in it or something?
  
 a lot of DAC and AMP sound better (or the sound opens up) after 150 hours. DAVE is the same or?


----------



## x RELIC x

shini44 said:


> Getting DAVE next month, by the end of NOV. wanted to know, do i need to burn in it or something?
> 
> a lot of DAC and AMP sound better (or the sound opens up) after 150 hours. DAVE is the same or?




Lol, literally read a couple posts up. :rolleyes:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/5400#post_12967515


----------



## Shini44

x relic x said:


> Lol, literally read a couple posts up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Rob's burn in thoughts? i didn't understand it very well xD English isn't my 1st language O-o'' 

 so it will sound the same out of the box? i know about the brain getting used to the new sound sig, been a head-fier for like four years now


----------



## x RELIC x

shini44 said:


> Rob's burn in thoughts? i didn't understand it very well xD English isn't my 1st language O-o''
> 
> 
> so it will sound the same out of the box? i know about the brain getting used to the new sound sig, been a head-fier for like four years now




The part with the comparison between a new production unit and his well used pre-production unit (I posted three spoilers in that post). He suspected the DAVE may get slightly smoother with time, but no where near what is perceived with brain burn-in.

Edit: The short story is don't expect any night and day differences from burn-in with the DAVE. I hear it the same as when I first received it.


----------



## Shini44

x relic x said:


> The part with the comparison between a new production unit and his well used pre-production unit (I posted three spoilers in that post). He suspected the DAVE may get slightly smoother with time, but no where near what is perceived with brain burn-in.


 
 oh thanks, i didn't read this part as i though it will be about something totally different.


----------



## x RELIC x

Shini44, congrats on the DAVE by the way!!


----------



## GeneralSensible

rob watts said:


> Yes Chord have a new remote, and its functionally identical to the old one.
> 
> I suspect that there will be no difference in SQ by switching the Schuko over, as internally its transformer coupled, so there is no hot or cold as far as Dave is concerned. But give it a go, and the warmer sounding one would be the better as that would indicate lower overall RF noise levels. But my guess is it won't make a difference.
> 
> Rob


 

 Hi Rob,
  
 thanks very much for your answer. I will give switching the Schuko over a go and will let you know if I experience any difference in SQ.
  
 About the remote, is it normal that I can not change phase on the remote control? Actually except from the display lightning up nothing really happens when I use the "Mode" button on the remote. I'm running the DAVE in DAC-mode and display mode 4.
  
 Tnx! 
 Peter.


----------



## Shini44

x relic x said:


> @Shini44, congrats on the DAVE by the way!!


 
 Thanks, it will be here next month thought. since i decided to go with Utopia first xD

 oh my DAVE is silver though, since i used to it since my 1st Hugo  then Hugo TT


----------



## nepherte

ashrunner said:


> Yeah, but the import tax on $8100 of stereo equipment is only about $350. I guarantee you that folks are already importing and reselling given the pound/dollar delta that currently exists.


 

 I see. People in the US are really lucky then. Any goods imported into Belgium coming from outside the EU are taxed for about 21%... And that is usually on top of the taxes of the country that it originally came from (typically VAT is not subtracted).


----------



## STR-1

Hifi+ review now out - "...gets the strongest recommendation we can muster"


----------



## Beolab

str-1 said:


> Hifi+ review now out - "...gets the strongest recommendation we can muster"




Do you have a link to that review or tell us in short of their impressions?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

https://www.facebook.com/chordelectronics/photos/a.193269360773093.31554.110747222358641/903253389774683/?type=3&theater

Will Rob introduce the new Blu Player today or tomorrow I wonder. It will be interesting to hear what improvements he has designed into this front end product. If he can combine the superior focus of upsampling at 176khz to match the purity, naturalness and ease of 44.1 then I am a buyer.


----------



## STR-1

beolab said:


> Do you have a link to that review or tell us in short of their impressions?




No link. I subscribed to the electronic edition (a subscription that incidentally ends today) and it is not yet on the magazine website. The review basically says there's nothing better, while conceding that some might prefer music to be presented differently.


----------



## Christer

daveredref-iii said:


> https://www.facebook.com/chordelectronics/photos/a.193269360773093.31554.110747222358641/903253389774683/?type=3&theater
> 
> Will Rob introduce the new Blu Player today or tomorrow I wonder. It will be interesting to hear what improvements he has designed into this front end product. If he can combine the superior focus of upsampling at 176khz to match the purity, naturalness and ease of 44.1 then I am a buyer.


 
 Sorry double posting by mistake.


----------



## ubs28

str-1 said:


> Hifi+ review now out - "...gets the strongest recommendation we can muster"


 

 I agree with the Chord Dave having a strong recommendation.
  
 The biggest suprise of the Chord Dave for me is how it's able to deal with bad recordings. The HD 800 S sounds fantastic on very old recordings with the Chord Dave quite suprisingly also.


----------



## Christer

christer said:


> Hmm, and I thought the ugliest speakers were made by MBL?
> Are there really  music lovers  who actually live in such scary factory looking, steely environments, where speakers like these  horrible shiny metal towers from KEF would fit in?
> But maybe one could dress them up in a slim-line dress to camouflage them?
> I am pretty sure they sound good though,most KEF speakers actually do.
> ...


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I couldn't find 10% of my record collection in hires Christer so I wonder what the point of it is. Id be happy to transfer everything to hires if it were available but I am dammed if I am going to waste money on a decent source for less than 10% of my CD collection. Red Book through top quality dacs is a fine format indeed (as Dave has proved).


----------



## lovethatsound

daveredref-iii said:


> I couldn't find 10% of my record collection in hires Christer so I wonder what the point of it is. Id be happy to transfer everything to hires if it were available but I am dammed if I am going to waste money on a decent source for less than 10% of my CD collection. Red Book through top quality dacs is a fine format indeed (as Dave has proved).


I totally agree with you,redbook sounds fantastic with the Dave.In fact I'd say alot of redbook recording sound just as good as hi-res,if not better most of the time.☺


----------



## Ampus

At the recommendation of Torq, I obtained a Lifatec toslink which has 470 glass fibers to use with my DAVE. I am aware that some forum members did not hear a difference among the freebie, Mapleshade, and Audioquest diamond toslinks; however, to my ears the Lifatec is better than the freebie. Listening to Muddy Water Folk Singer and Holly Cole Temptation, I heard more clarity and details with the Lifatec in place. Not bad at all, considering a 3ft Lifatec only costs $81.


----------



## ubs28

lovethatsound said:


> I totally agree with you,redbook sounds fantastic with the Dave.In fact I'd say alot of redbook recording sound just as good as hi-res,if not better most of the time.☺


 

 Wouldn't it be better to use SACD rather than Redbook to feed the DAVE?


----------



## Jawed

Across the top of DAVE is a pattern of "holes". In some pictures I can see a green colour in one or more of those "holes", as if there's an LED in there.

Are these holes? 

If so, doesn't that mean dust can get inside?


----------



## x RELIC x

jawed said:


> Across the top of DAVE is a pattern of "holes". In some pictures I can see a green colour in one or more of those "holes", as if there's an LED in there.
> 
> Are these holes?
> 
> If so, doesn't that mean dust can get inside?




Yes, and yes.


----------



## lovethatsound

ubs28 said:


> Wouldn't it be better to use SACD rather than Redbook to feed the DAVE?


The trouble is with SACD,is that it's limited to what you can get,just like hi-Res.☺


----------



## icebear

ubs28 said:


> Wouldn't it be better to use SACD rather than Redbook to feed the DAVE?


 
  
  


lovethatsound said:


> The trouble is with SACD,is that it's limited to what you can get,just like hi-Res.☺


 

 The key point is that there is no DSD output from a SACD source to feed into an external DAC (not considering the PS-3 workaround to extract the files first...)


----------



## rkt31

some universal players transmit dsd via HDMI to the compatible avr . there must be some ways to capture that stream. still I don't know any scheme which can be fed directly to Dave or other dac I real time. for a player to transmit dsd a digital handshake is needed with avr . if digital handshake is not detected HDMI will not transmit dsd. there are some cheap HDMI to coaxial converters which claim to provide that digital handshake and allow transmitting dsd and high resolution audio of blu rays via HDMI. that audio then available via coaxial out . I don't know how dsd is transmitted . if it's not dop encoded majority of dacs will not be able to use it. if it is native dsd stream may be some dacs like Dave are able to take it . having said that, sacd/dsd64 now does not make much sense because for dacs like Dave can process even a CD quality file to a much better quality than dsd64. for those having large collection of sacds , there are some ways to rip sacds.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I have tried SACD in the past and bought a number of discs. The format is seriously flawed both in design and implementation. This flaw shows itself in an extreme lack of musicality. I wouldn't touch anything that has been mastered to DSD. Even DSD masters that are converted to Red Book lose musicality. Try listening to the SACD red book layer of Ryan Adams Heartbreaker and then compare to the Doug Sax pure red book mastering. The SACD conversion to red book has robbed the music of any emotion.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I remember people writing Vinyl off not so many years ago................Red Book has a good future imo. I don't think the industry is anywhere near exhausting the capability of the protocol. Rob has only just proved that DACs were not converting the information properly. Add to that the shortcomings of ADCs and the industry have only just started tapping the true potential of Red Book. As I always say 44,100 samples per second is a lot of information.


----------



## EVOLVIST

I agree about redbook, for what it's worth. I haven't heard a damn thing in any other format that sounded better to be honest. Unless I have a recording that was remastered above 16/44, and that's the only way to get the remaster (if the remaster is any good, that is), I otherwise find myself always reaching for the redbook.


----------



## rkt31

after Davina there might be many remaster of old classics !  I would like mobile fidelity sound Lab to use the opportunity and churn out some remasters of likes of Bela fleck's-drive , some moody blues stuff and many more .


----------



## bmichels

still no news about the NEW Blu ?


----------



## Christer

daveredref-iii said:


> I remember people writing Vinyl off not so many years ago................Red Book has a good future imo. I don't think the industry is anywhere near exhausting the capability of the protocol. Rob has only just proved that DACs were not converting the information properly. Add to that the shortcomings of ADCs and the industry have only just started tapping the true potential of Red Book. As I always say 44,100 samples per second is a lot of information.


 

 Vinyl is having a revival for several reasons an important one being that at its best it actually sounds not only clearly better and more realistic  than Mp3 and redbook, in spite of some theoretical  shortcomings.I doubt rbcd will ever have any similar revival. It is much more likely to be a dying physical format that could have been better already when launched but wasn´t for practical  and economic reasons.
 Vinyl is  much better at resolving temporal information than low res digital. And temporal /timing errors are very audible with complex acoustic music, less so with electronica which generally lacks both acoustic cues and clean ultrafast transients compared to acoustic music in general and large scale symphonic music in particular.
 The more complex and higher frequencies captured and reproduced the more obvious the shortcomings of low res digital. And 16/44.1 is low res digital imo and most professional´s opinions too.
  Nobody absolutely nobody I know of in the classical recording industry  records at 16/44.1., nor have done so for MANY YEARS!
 16/44 as a recording format was abandoned long long ago by anyone who  really cared about SQ.
 It was the recording engineers within the classical industry that were the first to hear on a daily basis how lacking rbcd 16/44.1 was as a recording format compared to analogue tape they had used for many years at different speeds and with to them and me much more realistic results than 16/44.1
 As soon as higher bit rates and sampling rates were made avilable to professionals they were being used.
 What has to be taken into consideration with 16/44.1 ie rbcd is that it is only a release format. A convenient format for both the industry and customers. But no more than that.
 And even when Rob is praised here over and over again for how good rbcd files sound via his DACs,and yes they do  sound pretty good, but not SOTA,we have to remember that once your so beloved redbook files have been sent through either Mojo, HUGO or DAVE, or for that matter many other DACs ,they are not 16/44.1 files any longer !
 They have been heavily upsampled and interpolated  often into 24 or even 32 bits instead of the original 16 bits and upsampled to at least 96 or 192khz or much higher into megaherz territory in efforts   to REPAIR and interpolate/put back as much as possible of all the  missing information that low res 16/44.1 did not capture in the first place.Why use a compromised recording format when you don´t have to any longer?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Christer we are talking about the end, use not the recording studio. If that were the barometer Vinyl wouldn't exist. I am saying that when we start talking about 1m taps and SotA ADCs in the not too distant future, people will find it harder and harder to distinguish Red Book from higher res audio, if they are indeed they are able to do so blind. We won't have too long to wait. Maybe 5 years max?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I am all for higher res in recording btw. If you are going to eq or mess with anything you need the highest possible resolution because of the degradation.


----------



## rkt31

vinyl makes sense only for the native analog recordings. for vinyls made from native digital recordings ( I believe after 90s only very few albums were recorded in analog ) you hear the dac and eq curve which converted the digital to make vinyl 
Master. I bet a good adc and dac ( like Davina and dave ) will completely obviate the vinyl. vinyl has its own shortcomings like it needs eq for recording and playback and much more low level analog processing/handling. once an adc like Davina ( or other good existing adc) converts the analog master into high resolution digital, you can process it into any resolution. problem lies into mastering of CD quality files. if carefully done rbcd can have so much more dynamic range and details. best example is xrcd of robert Lucas -Luke and the locomotives . I would request everyone to try this blues CD. this CD is a very good example , how CD quality files should be mastered.


----------



## ubs28

lovethatsound said:


> The trouble is with SACD,is that it's limited to what you can get,just like hi-Res.☺


 

 That's true unfortunetly. Hopefully that will change with the Hifi community gaining popularity.


----------



## Christer

daveredref-iii said:


> Christer we are talking about the end, use not the recording studio. If that were the barometer Vinyl wouldn't exist. I am saying that when we start talking about 1m taps and SotA ADCs in the not too distant future, people will find it harder and harder to distinguish Red Book from higher res audio, if they are indeed they are able to do so blind. We won't have too long to wait. Maybe 5 years max?


 

 But to me the greatest thing about computer audio apart from the instant gratification of fast downloads is that "the end use" if you will, can finally for everyone be and already is, what  I  and many others  who want to playback masterfiles ie basically exact  digital copy of the recording from  the actual concert hall or Opera house where things were recorded at the highest possible resolution and best possible miking and all else that goes into making real SOTA HI FI recordings.And we  can easily do so with excellent results that put rbcd  in the shade of hi res in most cases. For most of my  very active music listening I am not at all interested in compromised digital as 16/44.1 from a superior 24/96 master or whatever the original file format was. I want the masterfile and nothing less than that.Both via headphones and my speakers I have  a system that can reveal and resolve the differences.
 I don´t know how many here have actually been to  acoustic music recording sessions or regularly visit live concerts of acoustic music.
 But I can assure you that  when you have those things for comparison and reference,  you hear and know what has been lost by downsampling  well recorded,hi res masterfiles to 16/44.1 or worse  MP3 and such crap formats.
 Playing low res digital files via a really good system is  a bit like  running a really good sports car on cheap  dirty unrefined  fuel imho.
 And as far as vinyl is concerned it was not practical to do so for  the mass market, but there was a time and golden era of vinyl when direct cut LPs  were the master.
 Many  of them are now almost worth their weight in gold for obvious reasons.


----------



## Music Alchemist

christer said:


> I don´t know how many here have actually been to  acoustic music recording sessions or regularly visit live concerts of acoustic music.
> But I can assure you that  when you have those things for comparison and reference,  you hear and know what has been lost by downsampling  well recorded,hi res masterfiles to 16/44.1 or worse  MP3 and such crap formats.


 
  
 I'm a lifelong musician (vocals, piano, guitar, trombone) who has played in orchestras, wind ensembles, marching bands, a jazz band, metal band, etc. I take great pride in my hearing and ability to assess sound quality.
  
 Most of us already know that many hi-res downloads are derived from different masters than their CD (and vinyl, etc.) counterparts. In these instances, it's easy to hear the difference, but it says nothing of the file resolution itself. So the first thing that needs to be done is to isolate the variables to ensure we are comparing only the two different resolutions.
  
 When I convert hi-res PCM files to lossless Red Book using dBpoweramp, I do not hear even the slightest bit of difference between them no matter how good the system is. I would be interested if you could replicate these tests (using the same conversion software) but be able to distinguish between the files under controlled conditions. (Feel free to PM me if you're up for this. I can assist you in the task.)
  
 I'm not sure if the premise of this article is entirely correct, but there's some good info there on why some or even all of the benefits of hi-res files may not be audible for playback. (Though it is common knowledge that they are beneficial for recording and editing audio.)
  
 Also:
  


music alchemist said:


> Here's a post by Rob Watts explaining why DSD is technically inferior to PCM. (There are probably more if you look for them.)
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/300#post_11943807
> 
> ...


----------



## ecwl

str-1 said:


> No link. I subscribed to the electronic edition (a subscription that incidentally ends today) and it is not yet on the magazine website. The review basically says there's nothing better, while conceding that some might prefer music to be presented differently.




Thanks for the heads up. I couldn't resist and bought the iPad version of this November 2016 issue of HiFi+ for $3.99. The review was extremely effusive and Alan Sircom the reviewer clearly gets what the DAC is about but seems to struggle a little with defining what makes it great at times. Like a lot of us, the reviewer can understand why some people would choose another DAC over DAVE but it sounds like DAVE is the DAC for him, just like a lot of us on this forum. Very interesting.


----------



## miketlse

str-1 said:


> Hifi+ review now out - "...gets the strongest recommendation we can muster"


 
  
 It is also reviewed in the HiFiNews yearbook - i think they liked the DAVE, especially for piano.


----------



## ecwl

miketlse said:


> It is also reviewed in the HiFiNews yearbook - i think they liked the DAVE, especially for piano.




Yes. The PDF version of the Hi-Fi News review you can download if you google Chord DAVE Hi-Fi News Review PDF. The HiFi+ review is too new to find online, short of purchasing the digital issue.


----------



## Toolman

ecwl said:


> The HiFi+ review is too new to find online, short of purchasing the digital issue.


 

 Unless you know where to find them


----------



## longbowbbs

toolman said:


> ecwl said:
> 
> 
> > The HiFi+ review is too new to find online, short of purchasing the digital issue.
> ...


 
 I don't even have that issue and I write for them! I have the PS Audio DSJ review in issue 141. Still have not gotten my digital version yet.


----------



## Music Alchemist

ecwl said:


> I couldn't resist and bought the iPad version of this November 2016 issue of HiFi+ for $3.99.


 
  
 Do you have to get it via iTunes and an iPad or iPhone? (I have neither.) It would appear the in-app purchases are not available on Windows.


----------



## ecwl

music alchemist said:


> Do you have to get it via iTunes and an iPad or iPhone? (I have neither.) It would appear the in-app purchases are not available on Windows.




Yup. Hi-Fi Plus iOS app in-app purchase of issue 141. Read the whole thing. Including the PS Audio DSJ review. Good stuff.


----------



## Music Alchemist

ecwl said:


> Yup. Hi-Fi Plus iOS app in-app purchase of issue 141. Read the whole thing. Including the PS Audio DSJ review. Good stuff.


 
  
 I only have Windows. Guess I'll just wait until they publish it on the website. I really enjoy their reviews.


----------



## longbowbbs

ecwl said:


> music alchemist said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have to get it via iTunes and an iPad or iPhone? (I have neither.) It would appear the in-app purchases are not available on Windows.
> ...


 
 Glad you liked it. The DSJ is a great value. Not in the DAVE category but not much is.


----------



## Music Alchemist

Thanks to a kind soul, I was able to read the Hi-Fi+ review. Got a good laugh from the "from What to OMG and then LOL" part. I must say, this review was rather brief for them, and unfortunately, there were no comparisons to other DACs in particular; only the conclusion that it's the best one the author has heard. It provided a moment of entertainment, but there's far more useful information in this thread.


----------



## analogmusic

read the review, " What to OMG to LOL" and pull out the credit card, funny....
  
 That wasn't quite my reaction, but yes I was thinking "Wow this is really 3 dimensional depth" during my brief audition of Dave. But more than the 3D soundstage, Dave is very musical and gives real musical goosebumps.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

The new Blu Player was obviously not shown at weekends hifi show in U.K. I wonder when it will see the light of day.


----------



## bmichels

daveredref-iii said:


> The new Blu Player was obviously not shown at weekends hifi show in U.K. I wonder when it will see the light of day.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I have to say Rob must be rushed off his feet right now. I don't know how he can do what he does and also travel round the world selling and presenting his new designs at the same time. He must be an absolute workaholic! 

I must say also that it's about time the industry recognised the importance of Rob's work. What he has achieved with Hugo, Dave and Mojo is a fundamental breakthrough in understanding how to convert digital to analogue sound properly in order to replicate the transient information. He has opened a door for others to follow and proved he was right all along. To think, for 30 years this industry had its head up its a"$€. It should be acknowledged with some form of award imo.


----------



## maxh22

daveredref-iii said:


> I have to say Rob must be rushed off his feet right now. I don't know how he can do what he does and also travel round the world selling and presenting his new designs at the same time. He must be an absolute workaholic!
> 
> I must say also that it's about time the industry recognised the importance of Rob's work. What he has achieved with Hugo, Dave and Mojo is a fundamental breakthrough in understanding how to convert digital to analogue sound properly in order to replicate the transient information. He has opened a door for others to follow and proved he was right all along. To think, for 30 years this industry had its head up its a"$€. It should be acknowledged with some form of award imo.




I agree. Here's one award I found that Dave received .


----------



## flummoxed

analogmusic said:


> read the review, " What to OMG to LOL" and pull out the credit card, funny....
> 
> That wasn't quite my reaction, but yes I was thinking "Wow this is really 3 dimensional depth" during my brief audition of Dave. But more than the 3D soundstage, Dave is very musical and gives real musical goosebumps.


 
 That's very interesting analogmusic.
  
 I'm pleased to hear you've ordered one at last and I'm looking forward to your in depth review. When does your black one arrive and how will you implement it with your Naim system?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I mean Rob Watts being recognised personally for his contribution to the industry.


----------



## Crgreen

Also published in the same edition of Hi-Fi Plus is an equally effusive review of the full Vivaldi 2.0 system, by a different reviewer. It would have been interesting for both reviewers to do a contrast and compare review, but the magazine would probably not want to offend by doing so. Mind you, Sircom says the DAVE is better than anything at any price, but that begs the questions: does he include the Vivaldi in that?


----------



## Music Alchemist

crgreen said:


> Also published in the same edition of Hi-Fi Plus is an equally effusive review of the full Vivaldi 2.0 system, by a different reviewer. It would have been interesting for both reviewers to do a contrast and compare review, but the magazine would probably not want to offend by doing so. Mind you, Sircom says the DAVE is better than anything at any price, but that begs the questions: does he include the Vivaldi in that?


 
  
 He has heard the Vivaldi. (Dunno about the 2.0 version.)
  
 http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/think-local-think-global/
 http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/dcs-rossini-disc-player-and-clock/
 http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/ces-highlights-from-everywhere-else/?page=8


----------



## Jawed

That article hints at an alternative source of opinion than the hi-fi press: what manufacturers take to shows to run with their product. Wilson uses dCS, for example. That's a pretty weighty vote of confidence.

It appears there's usually plenty of Hugos at headphone shows. I think Focal headphones have been demonstrated with DAVE. Perhaps we'll see DAVE at non-headphone shows?

On the other hand, perhaps DAVE is mostly selling to people who've owned Mojo or Hugo or one of DAVE's predecessors and want more of the same. They probably don't care about reviews or what's used at shows. I suppose it doesn't hurt to ask a leading question: are DAVE's sales buoyed by Mojo and Hugo, when compared with DAVE's predecessors? Is there a reverse-halo effect here, where the popularist products are helping to sell DAVE rather than vice versa?


----------



## miketlse

Two members of the What Hifi forum attended the Windsor show at the weekend.
  
 They were both unimpressed by the demonstration of the Kef Muons, driven by a DAVE plus Chord amps.
 Interestingly both of them point the finger at a room, that was badly set up acoustically. 
  
http://www.whathifi.com/comment/1009229#comment-1009229


----------



## lovethatsound

bmichels said:


> :mad:


Maybe it won't see the light of day after all . I've been thinking about the blu 2 for a while now,and i think their could be a problem with it,and the problem?well it would have to use dual optical,now the Dave has got 2 optical inputs,but I'm sure the Dave is set up to do dual coaxial,as we know from this thread,optical or usb is the best way to set Dave up,i wonder


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I hope there is coaxial tbh. I prefer it to optical


----------



## jlbrach

I ran the Cavalli amp with the DAVE as a DAC- for headphones only. I used the single ended with the Tube amps and speakers and headphones.
  
 Did you find listening to headphones to be better with the cavalli and Dave or the Dave alone?....I go back and forth between the LCD-4 with the Dave directly and using the Moon neo 430 with it.....I am curious of your opinion here


----------



## x RELIC x

jlbrach said:


> [COLOR=B22222]I ran the Cavalli amp with the DAVE as a DAC- for headphones only. I used the single ended with the Tube amps and speakers and headphones.[/COLOR]
> 
> Did you find listening to headphones to be better with the cavalli and Dave or the Dave alone?....I go back and forth between the LCD-4 with the Dave directly and using the Moon neo 430 with it.....I am curious of your opinion here




As I recently received my LAu (Liquid Gold) I can share my thoughts that I recently replied to a PM where I shared this.

_"So, after some brief time listening to the LAu compared to the DAVE's headphone out I can say the LAu indeed adds it's own sound, not as transparent. It brings a little more bass and soundstage width to everything. Slightly. The key here is it adds it's own sound to everything. The DAVE is more transparent and it's slightly easier to note the subtle differences like soundstage and nuance between tracks. Adding the LAu makes everything sound more similar.

The LAu is pleasant to listen to. I'm keeping mine. Sometimes adding a certain flavor to the sound is just plain enjoyable. With my current headphones I technically don't need the LAu as the DAVE easily drives them and the LAu is barely turned up past zero on low gain. I mean, the LAu has so much power I need to turn the DAVE's volume down slightly feeding the LAu in order to actually use the LAu's volume knob without blasting my ears out for my preferences.

Please keep in mind this is before the LAu is finished breaking in and I will report back when I'm finished with the 150 hours break in period."_

Basically, the Liquid Gold colors the sound and the DAVE alone is more transparent. Not too surprising as I'm adding components which can only add coloration to the DAVE, not take away. The question really is a personal one. Do you like the coloration the amp adds or not.


----------



## longbowbbs

crgreen said:


> Also published in the same edition of Hi-Fi Plus is an equally effusive review of the full Vivaldi 2.0 system, by a different reviewer. It would have been interesting for both reviewers to do a contrast and compare review, but the magazine would probably not want to offend by doing so. Mind you, Sircom says the DAVE is better than anything at any price, but that begs the questions: does he include the Vivaldi in that?


 
 The new dCS 2.0 would make a Vivaldi/DAVE shootout a lot of fun.


----------



## analogmusic

flummoxed said:


> That's very interesting analogmusic.
> 
> I'm pleased to hear you've ordered one at last and I'm looking forward to your in depth review. When does your black one arrive and how will you implement it with your Naim system?


 
  
 Thank you Flummoxed and welcome to Head-fi. 

 I won't have much to add to what has already been posted about Dave. I am was enjoying Mojo and Hugo a lot, and wanted to know if Dave is much better, and once I heard Dave, as the HiFi + reviewer said, it only takes a few moments to understand how special Dave is, as good as Hugo is, once I heard the (even bigger than Hugo) soundstage of Dave, and how much more musical it was, I knew I had to buy one. So I won't be changing my old and heavily used car for a few more years as a result of this, but music is much more important to me than a car. 
  
 Chord have received a huge amount of orders for Dave and it is in great demand all over the world, and mine will arrive in a few weeks (I was told 6-8 weeks when I ordered it)
  
 About Naim - I use a squeezebox touch with my Hugo through optical out, and that is the same source I will use with Dave. Or maybe a Laptop running off battery. If you are familiar with Naim, I am using a RCA to Din cable for my Hugo.
  
 I've been an audiophile since a young age, when I was impressed by the Bang and Olufsen systems I heard back in the early 80's, and loved the era of Vinyl and analog tape. I then heard a Naim system 10 years ago and loved it, but Dave is for me almost the final destination of my audiophile journey. (the last one will be the Chord million tap DAC, but I think we're quite a few years away from that). And keenly waiting for hear recordings made on Davina.
  
 I never liked early digital, and for me Dave is a musical dream come true in terms of being able to hear the microdynamics, rhythmic qualities, emotion, 3d soundstage, spacious sound, musicality from the good old red book CD. 
  
 Can't wait to get it !


----------



## Rob Watts

daveredref-iii said:


> I mean Rob Watts being recognised personally for his contribution to the industry.


 
  
 I get my reward every time I board a flight with Mojo, enter a hotel room with Dave, go to work in my office and listen at night with Dave.
  
 Four years ago I could never have imagined these improvements in being able to enjoy music. All I could see was the huge chasm between recorded music and live un-amplified music; and closing that gap (and I hope with more improvements to come) is my reward.
  
 Oh and Blu Mk2 - I am guilty for the delay. I had the prototype working in August, but I found a way to further improve SQ. It cost me 2 or 3 months (sorry Davina) but it has been worth it. I hope to have it wrapped up very soon, then I can talk about it.
  
 Rob


----------



## lovethatsound

daveredref-iii said:


> I hope there is coaxial tbh. I prefer it to optical


Fair enough Dave,but if it was coaxial it would go against everything Rob has said on here.why would use the worst method when you're trying to improve sound quality?☺


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Love that sound
I can only go by own tests and I couldn't find an optical lead which beat the Chord Sarum Super Aray Digital.

Bear in mind also that Dave outs its digital for future amps via Coaxial. If you have RF under control, Coaxial is still a very good ( I would say superior) connection.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I have a similar mindset Rob. I keep reminding myself how lucky I am to experience such emotional and dynamic performances in my own home. However my personal productivity around the house has fallen dramatically! 

Looking forward to hearing more on the new Blu


----------



## lovethatsound

daveredref-iii said:


> Love that sound
> I can only go by own tests and I couldn't find an optical lead which beat the Chord Sarum Super Aray Digital.
> 
> Bear in mind also that Dave outs its digital for future amps via Coaxial. If you have RF under control, Coaxial is still a very good ( I would say superior) connection.


How can coaxial be superior Dave?It's already been said on this thread by Rob himself,many times that usb and optical are the best ways connect you're equipment to the Dave.coaxial will always be prone to RF issues and coloured sound.☺


----------



## flummoxed

analogmusic said:


> Thank you Flummoxed and welcome to Head-fi.
> 
> I won't have much to add to what has already been posted about Dave. I am was enjoying Mojo and Hugo a lot, and wanted to know if Dave is much better, and once I heard Dave, as the HiFi + reviewer said, it only takes a few moments to understand how special Dave is, as good as Hugo is, once I heard the (even bigger than Hugo) soundstage of Dave, and how much more musical it was, I knew I had to buy one. So I won't be changing my old and heavily used car for a few more years as a result of this, but music is much more important to me than a car.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks analogmusic.
  
 Yes it's always exciting waiting for a new purchase to arrive and it will be worth the wait i'm sure. Even if you have to hitchhike to work ;o)
  
 I'm no expert on Squeezebox so playing devils advocate, but isn't the Dave worthy of a far better source than the squeezebox touch?


----------



## analogmusic

I suppose the Squeezebox isn't the best front end for Dave, but it has Galvanic isolation through optical.
  
 Rob Watts does use his Dave with a Laptop while on battery.


----------



## flummoxed

analogmusic said:


> I suppose the Squeezebox isn't the best front end for Dave, but it has Galvanic isolation through optical.
> 
> Rob Watts does use his Dave with a Laptop while on battery.


 

 Hi Rob,
  
 Would you mind me asking what software you use on your laptop as the source?
  
 Thanks


----------



## bmichels

rob watts said:


> .... Blu Mk2 - I am guilty for the delay. I had the prototype working in August, but I found a way to further improve SQ. It cost me 2 or 3 months (sorry Davina) but it has been worth it. I hope to have it wrapped up very soon, then I can talk about it.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Don't rush Rob, we all prefer to trade few weeks for an even better SQ 
  
 but, is Blu MK2:   CD player or... CD/SACD ?


----------



## Rob Watts

I use J River on my lap-tops.
  
 Blu mk2 is CD only - it uses the same mech as the original Blu. 
  
 Rob


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I tried a number of optical and Coaxial cables and also AES. The optical choices included the well regarded Lifatec TLTLG-OS but I found Coaxial to be superior in dynamics and musicality. I found the presentation of sound, for instance Acoustic guitar strings to be better balanced (true to life) with the Chord Sarum Super Aray digital cable.

Maybe it's because the usual RF and electricity nasties are well controlled. I use Vertex AQ and Isotek for their own purposes but do not plug the VAQ components into the Sigmas. It works for me.


----------



## lovethatsound

rob watts said:


> I use J River on my lap-tops.
> 
> Blu mk2 is CD only - it uses the same mech as the original Blu.
> 
> Rob


Hi Rob,why would use coaxial again?i just don't understand why you would use this method again,why not usb or optical,I'm very confused,all through this thread you've said usb and optical are the best way,could you please explain thanks☺


----------



## Rob Watts

Blu mk2 does have optical as an output - but only up to 176.4 kHz. Blu mk2 has 705.6 k capable OP's and the only way of connecting this to Dave is via dual BNC.
  
 The BNC outputs are RF isolated, and its the RF noise that is the main problem. There are also options for full galvanic isolation via BNC too, and with it running at 705.6 kHz, so no need to worry.
  
 Rob


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I like the sound of that already Rob.


----------



## lovethatsound

rob watts said:


> Blu mk2 does have optical as an output - but only up to 176.4 kHz. Blu mk2 has 705.6 k capable OP's and the only way of connecting this to Dave is via dual BNC.
> 
> The BNC outputs are RF isolated, and its the RF noise that is the main problem. There are also options for full galvanic isolation via BNC too, and with it running at 705.6 kHz, so no need to worry.
> 
> Rob


Thanks Rob,looks like everyone's going to be happy


----------



## thunder 99

I had a quick question I was hoping to get clarified
  
 I finally got to demo Chord DAVE, whilst I was very impressed by the transparency I couldnt help but notice that it doenst add weight or energy to the sound as my SET300b - Takatsuki WA5 amp. I guess this makes me a tubes person but I was wondering what would be the result of pairing the DAVE with a tube amp?. Would it be synergistic or not really?
  
 Also, I am guessing in this case the DAVE would either function as the DAC or DAC/Preamp (please correct me if I am wrong). Just wondering what the effect of either of these modes would be on the final sound?
  
 Thanks in advance


----------



## bmichels

rob watts said:


> Blu mk2 does have optical as an output - but only up to 176.4 kHz. Blu mk2 has 705.6 k capable OP's and the only way of connecting this to Dave is via dual BNC.
> 
> Rob




Why not passing just redbook 44 kHz to the DAVE and doing all the upsampling in the DAVE which I suppose has much more processing power than the Blu ?


----------



## ecwl

bmichels said:


> Why not passing just redbook 44 kHz to the DAVE and doing all the upsampling in the DAVE which I suppose has much more processing power than the Blu ?


 

 I strongly suspect the new Blu has many, many more taps so maybe it'll use the same Spartan LX75 FPGA and maybe 176000 taps to do the 16fs upsampling and then send the 705.6k signal to the DAVE which would then upsample it to 256fs. That would be superior to using DAVE's 176000 taps to go from 44kHz to 256fs.
  
 Of course, it creates a dilemma for us computer audio players who are feeding DAVE via USB. Do we want an even better CD playback by getting Blu? Or do we want to stick with our computer audio playback solution. Because we know even if it is possible to build a powerful enough computer to do the 16fs upsampling in the computer, Rob Watts and John Franks are not going to give away the keys to their kingdom and the WTA algorithm.
  
 Fortunately, my audiophilia nervosa is not that bad so I can live without getting the last bit of sound quality out of DAVE & my CDs. Besides, I need to use computer-based DSP for room correction so I'm pretty close to the limit of what I can squeeze out of DAVE.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I suspect you are right ecwl, in that Red Book should play better through Blu 2 than is possible via a computer. If correct that would suit me fine.


----------



## rkt31

I don't think sending rbcd via blu will be better than sending it through usb out directly to Dave. blu one can use as transport but primarily it is to cater to high end cd player market which is still there for many. if it all sending rbcd out from blu to dave is better , it may surely hurt the dave's market as many bought dave to be the end game dac sort of.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thing is, a stand alone CD player 'should' be better than a piece of equipment not built exclusively for the purpose and on the conversion side (Dave) how can it be blamed for other manufacturers solution choices or customer solution choices on the front end? Arguably Dave provides the best that can be achieved from any given source. If one source is better than another that is not surprising.


----------



## ecwl

rkt31 said:


> I don't think sending rbcd via blu will be better than sending it through usb out directly to Dave. blu one can use as transport but primarily it is to cater to high end cd player market which is still there for many. if it all sending rbcd out from blu to dave is better , it may surely hurt the dave's market as many bought dave to be the end game dac sort of.


 

 Chord has always done this going back to the DAC64 days. They make the best DAC they can (DAC64/QBD76/DAVE). And then they make their CD players which used to do 4fs upsampling from 44kHz to 176kHz with a separate FPGA to feed their DAC64/QBD76. And in theory, you can buy the Chord CD player and feed it to other DACs and you still get the Chord 4fs upsampling.
  
 So I would agree with DaveRedRef-III that Chord tries to make the best standalone DAC that it can and then Chord tries to make the best CD transport that it can.
  
 Besides, I can still see a scenario where the new Blu playing a CD to DAVE still sound inferior to say an LPS-1 powered microRendu playing the same file to DAVE. No way to know until someone actually makes a comparison.
  
 For me, whatever the outcome, I'm still happy to have bought DAVE as an end-game DAC. I doubt the next update to DAVE will be coming out any time soon. QBD76 to DAVE took 7 years.


----------



## analogmusic

another FPGA and WTA filter in the blu transport, on top of the existing ones in Dave?
  
 What are the benefits of this ?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

We are all guessing at this stage. I am sure Rob will be happy to give a full understanding of architecture and benefits when appropriate


----------



## Mojo ideas

daveredref-iii said:


> We are all guessing at this stage. I am sure Rob will be happy to give a full understanding of architecture and benefits when appropriate


 Yes hopefully he will keep quite! Just, please guys don't go goading him into divulging any more about it than he has already as we have not finished putting the first one together yet and they will not be launched until this coming January at the CES.


----------



## analogmusic

not sure about others, I can only speak for myself, but had Rob Watts not revealed as much as he did about the Dave, I wouldn't have had the curiosity to listen to one, and then a few months later, place an order for one.


----------



## lovethatsound

mojo ideas said:


> Yes hopefully he will keep quite! Just, please guys don't go goading him into divulging any more about it than he has already as we have not finished putting the first one together yet and they will not be launched until this coming January at the CES.


Hi john,I'm sure we all understand how busy yòu and Rob are,and are very grateful for all the input you guys put on here.ps IF you would like me to home beta the blu 2,just drop me a pm on here,I'd be more than willing to help you guy's out


----------



## miketlse

lovethatsound said:


> Hi john,I'm sure we all understand how busy yòu and Rob are,and are very grateful for all the input you guys put on here.ps IF you would like me to home beta the blu 2,just drop me a pm on here,I'd be more than willing to help you guy's out




I suspect that you are joining the back of an already long queue of willing volunteers LOL


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I'll go one step furher and offer to lend Rob a Focusrite Red 7 micpre, Rode Classic II valve mic, Beyer MC740 mic and Prism Orpheus ADCs for testing the Davina ADC in return for a lend of Blu II. .......I can drop them into East Farleigh?

Just a thought


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Had some friends stay over last week. One of them spent most of the time camped in my hifi room. Until now he has never shown an interest in hifi. The sound from the Dave was a complete revelation to him and by the time he was leaving he was already researching Mojo. Good to see a new convert.........


----------



## Shini44

daveredref-iii said:


> The sound from the Dave was a complete revelation to him and by the time he was leaving he was already researching Mojo. Good to see a new convert.........


 
  
 i like it when a Hifi setup/Chord setup make people convert from ear buds :' )


----------



## Mojo ideas

shini44 said:


> i like it when a Hifi setup/Chord setup make people convert from ear buds :' ) I whole heartedly agree it is beautiful


----------



## m0nster

I have been absent for a while from this thread. But I know that you did talk about the Focal Utopia and the AudioQuest NightHawk paired with the DAVE a while ago. I wonder if anyone had the chance to compare them? Or if there is a recommendation for a neutral headphone that pairs well with the DAVE?
  
 Edit: I am aware that this question probably has been answered before. Sorry for bringing it up again.


----------



## STR-1

m0nster said:


> I have been absent for a while from this thread. But I know that you did talk about the Focal Utopia and the AudioQuest NightHawk paired with the DAVE a while ago. I wonder if anyone had the chance to compare them? Or if there is a recommendation for a neutral headphone that pairs well with the DAVE?
> 
> Edit: I am aware that this question probably has been answered before. Sorry for bringing it up again.



The NightHawks are supposedly one of Rob Watts' favourite headphones, so you have to suspect that a lot of the testing during the Dave's design was done with him wearing the NightHawks.


----------



## Mojo ideas

lovethatsound said:


> Hi john,I'm sure we all understand how busy yòu and Rob are,and are very grateful for all the input you guys put on here.ps IF you would like me to home beta the blu 2,just drop me a pm on here,I'd be more than willing to help you guy's out


 Let me know when you'll be dropping by our rooms at the CES and we can arrange it


----------



## EVOLVIST

m0nster said:


> I have been absent for a while from this thread. But I know that you did talk about the Focal Utopia and the AudioQuest NightHawk paired with the DAVE a while ago. I wonder if anyone had the chance to compare them? Or if there is a recommendation for a neutral headphone that pairs well with the DAVE?
> 
> Edit: I am aware that this question probably has been answered before. Sorry for bringing it up again.




As of November 1st NightHawks are on a special sale price for $350 USD.


----------



## bmichels

when used as a DAC only ( NOT considering the Headphone out), how will you position DAVE in the HUGO and TT family ? 

I owe Mojo & HUGO and (among other DACS) I am considering the DAVE or the TT as my next upgrade to drive my BHSE + StaxSR009: *assuming HUGO's SQ was 100, how much will be the TT and the DAVE* ? 

Thanks


----------



## Music Alchemist

evolvist said:


> As of November 1st NightHawks are on a special sale price for $350 USD.


 
  
 I actually noticed that yesterday. (And ended up starting a new thread about the NightHawk Carbon, ironically a few hours before the official sponsor thread was posted and made mine redundant.) Do you know if it is only a temporary sale? I assumed the price had gone down and wouldn't go up again, as is the norm with many headphones.


----------



## miketlse

music alchemist said:


> I actually noticed that yesterday. (And ended up starting a new thread about the NightHawk Carbon, ironically a few hours before the official sponsor thread was posted and made mine redundant.) Do you know if it is only a temporary sale? I assumed the price had gone down and wouldn't go up again, as is the norm with many headphones.


 
 is it just a us deal?


----------



## Music Alchemist

miketlse said:


> is it just a us deal?


 
  
 I just checked Amazon's websites for various countries. It would appear the lower price is in the US and Canada, but not the UK, France, and Japan.


----------



## miketlse

music alchemist said:


> I just checked Amazon's websites for various countries. It would appear the lower price is in the US and Canada, but not the UK, France, and Japan.


 
  
 Thanks for checking - it is a pity that the deal is restricted to north america only.


----------



## nepherte

x relic x said:


> As I recently received my LAu (Liquid Gold) I can share my thoughts that I recently replied to a PM where I shared this.
> 
> _"So, after some brief time listening to the LAu compared to the DAVE's headphone out I can say the LAu indeed adds it's own sound, not as transparent. [...]."_


 
 I have noticed the same thing with the LAu and my TotalDAC. It colors the sound a bit too much for my taste (ie. loss of transparency and details). I did not have that experience at all with my GS-X mk2.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

nepherte said:


> I have noticed the same thing with the LAu and my TotalDAC. It colors the sound a bit too much for my taste (ie. loss of transparency and details). I did not have that experience at all with my GS-X mk2.


 
  
 Yes, the GS-X does a very, very good preserving the original signal.  Cavali's stuff (is very good) has it's own signature which results in a loss of transparency.  The GS-X is more chameleon like.


----------



## phonyx

bigfatpaulie said:


> Yes, the GS-X does a very, very good preserving the original signal.  Cavali's stuff (is very good) has it's own signature which results in a loss of transparency.  The GS-X is more chameleon like.







nepherte said:


> I have noticed the same thing with the LAu and my TotalDAC. It colors the sound a bit too much for my taste (ie. loss of transparency and details). I did not have that experience at all with my GS-X mk2.




If I found the GSXMKII too bright, even using HE1K's, but I was feeding it with an XSABRE DAC, would you be surprised? Was I hearding the DAC alone or is the amp truly bright ? I liked everything else about it but what I heard as excessive high end energy. The moon audio HA430 was more neutral to my ears.


----------



## darkless

phonyx said:


> If I found the GSXMKII too bright, even using HE1K's, but I was feeding it with an XSABRE DAC, would you be surprised? Was I hearding the DAC alone or is the amp truly bright ? I liked everything else about it but what I heard as excessive high end energy. The moon audio HA430 was more neutral to my ears.


I didn't find the GS-X mkII bright out of my TotalDAC.


----------



## nepherte

phonyx said:


> If I found the GSXMKII too bright, even using HE1K's, but I was feeding it with an XSABRE DAC, would you be surprised? Was I hearding the DAC alone or is the amp truly bright ? I liked everything else about it but what I heard as excessive high end energy. The moon audio HA430 was more neutral to my ears.



I wouldn't call the GS-X mk2 bright, it's rather neutral.


----------



## Jawed

Does anyone have a picture of DAVE's new remote control? Google has nothing. But I did come across this beautiful thing:



Though I admit, the corners look a bit too sharp.


----------



## jlbrach

To those out there who own both the Dave and the LCD-4 I would appreciate hearing views on the need for an external amp with the LCD-4 or straight out of the Dave...I currently own the Moon Neo 430 which is an outstanding amp that I used when I had the TT but the Dave drives the LCD-4 better than the TT but as great as it sounds straight out of the Dave I find myself going back and forth between amp and no amp...the LCD-4 is a beast in terms of needing power to drive it...any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated..thanks all


----------



## EVOLVIST

jlbrach said:


> To those out there who own both the Dave and the LCD-4 I would appreciate hearing views on the need for an external amp with the LCD-4 or straight out of the Dave...I currently own the Moon Neo 430 which is an outstanding amp that I used when I had the TT but the Dave drives the LCD-4 better than the TT but as great as it sounds straight out of the Dave I find myself going back and forth between amp and no amp...the LCD-4 is a beast in terms of needing power to drive it...any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated..thanks all




Are you going from the DAVE's XLRs or RCAs? If XLR try the RCAs. It seems to me that Rob Watts had said something about the RCAs being better out of the DAVE.


----------



## Beolab

str-1 said:


> The NightHawks are supposedly one of Rob Watts' favourite headphones, so you have to suspect that a lot of the testing during the Dave's design was done with him wearing the NightHawks.




I have been thinking about this quite some time also how different the DAVE should have sound if Rob have used a pair of a Abyss / Utopias or HD800 instead, during the testing process, because the Nighthawks are not so revealing, so i wonder how it was possible to distinguish the difference between very small micro details and nuances and tuning the noise shaper / HF filter and other hard tasks, using one of the most dark sounding headphones on the market as a reference tool..

(I know ( you Rob ) he where using a pair 20 years old german no-name speakers monitors also, probably good sounding, but not the most revealing or most linear speakers either on the market ? )


----------



## EVOLVIST

beolab said:


> I have been thinking about this quite some time also how different the DAVE should have sound if Rob have used a pair of a Abyss / Utopias Or HD800 instead, during the testing process, because the Nighthawks are not so revealing, so i wonder how it was possible to distinguish the difference between very small micro details and nuances and tuning the noise shaper / HF filter and other hard tasks, using one of the most dark sounding headphones on the market as a reference tool..




I don't imagine NightHawks were the only cans he used, though. From what I infered Rob used speakers as well as other cans. Or maybe it's just that I feel like the king of only remembering half of what Rob says. Heh.


----------



## jlbrach

one more quick question,on my TT or Hugo i noticed that if you switched to DAC only mode where it was set at -3 you could still adjust the volume but with the Dave when you put it in Dac only mode the volume is fixed at -3....I am curious why this might be?Is there a particular reason?


----------



## bigfatpaulie

phonyx said:


> If I found the GSXMKII too bright, even using HE1K's, but I was feeding it with an XSABRE DAC, would you be surprised? Was I hearding the DAC alone or is the amp truly bright ? I liked everything else about it but what I heard as excessive high end energy. The moon audio HA430 was more neutral to my ears.


 
  
 The GS-X wasn't too bright - the XSaber was too bright.  The GS-X isn't a bright amp at all - it is maintains the fidelity of the original signal.  If something was was bright it was either the headphones (not known as being bright) or the XSaber (known as being bright).
  
 HA430 is a less resolving, less transparent, more lush sounding amp that was compensating for the DAC.


----------



## x RELIC x

Funny, I just purchased the Nighthawk because of the sale on them right now ($300 off), and mostly because I wanted to hear what Rob hears with them. These are _very_ early impressions but I can see what Rob likes about them. They are VERY good for low distortion, and very clean and smooth. I don't find that I'm missing detail with them at all. Yes, they are a bit warm, but not too far off from the Utopia IMO. I think these headphones are getting a bad rap based on the source gear driving them. 

I'm currently using the Mojo because the DAVE is being used to break in the Liquid Gold at the moment. Of course very early impression and all.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

x relic x said:


> Funny, I just purchased the Nighthawk because of the sale on them right now ($300 off), and mostly because I wanted to hear what Rob hears with them. These are _very_ early impressions but I can see what Rob likes about them. They are VERY good for low distortion, and very clean and smooth. I don't find that I'm missing detail with them at all. Yes, they are a bit warm, but not too far off from the Utopia IMO. I think these headphones are getting a bad rap based on the source gear driving them.
> 
> I'm currently using the Mojo as the DAVE is being used to break in the Liquid Gold at the moment.


 
  
 A case of the HD800's?  People don't treat them as they need to be because of the price tag then complain that they don't sound good out of their iPhone?


----------



## x RELIC x

jlbrach said:


> one more quick question,on my TT or Hugo i noticed that if you switched to DAC only mode where it was set at -3 you could still adjust the volume but with the Dave when you put it in Dac only mode the volume is fixed at -3....I am curious why this might be?Is there a particular reason?




DAC mode is fixed because they decided to fix it. Use the pre-amp mode. The signal path is identical (AFAIK) but you get to use the digital volume control. You aren't bypassing anything and nothing degrades in the sound. I use pre-amp mode at -7 to get to the more common line-out level of 2V through RCA and 4V through XLR.


----------



## x RELIC x

bigfatpaulie said:


> A case of the HD800's?  People don't treat them as they need to be because of the price tag then complain that they don't sound good out of their iPhone?




I don't have the HD800 so I have no comment besides the fact that I found them too bright when I auditioned them long ago. The perceived detail from a frequency spike (6kHz) is different that the performance of the driver to deliver low distortion and a clean reproduction. The Utopia does this well without relying on a tipped up frequency response IMO. The Nighthawks are also good in this regard, though not quite at the Utopia level. Color me incredibly surprised. I know a lot of people will disagree, but that's how I hear it. 

I'm not saying the HD800 is a bad headphone or isn't a capable headphone, I'm just saying that tonal preferences aside the Nighthawk actually does quite well for detail retrieval.

Edit: I just re-read your post and think I missed your point. I don't think with the Nighthawks they need a powerful amp. They are very easy to drive. What I mean is that they are a low distortion headphone that I think will be more revealing of the source gear, even though they are a warm headphone (in a good way IMO). I could be wrong, who knows. I'm just surprised with them as I expected a completely different sound than what I'm hearing with them. That's all.

Edit2: Again, these are my very VERY early impressions. I probably shouldn't have commented on them yet, lol.


----------



## MacedonianHero

phonyx said:


> If I found the GSXMKII too bright, even using HE1K's, but I was feeding it with an XSABRE DAC, would you be surprised? Was I hearding the DAC alone or is the amp truly bright ? I liked everything else about it but what I heard as excessive high end energy. The moon audio HA430 was more neutral to my ears.


 
 As Paul mentioned, the GS-X imparts very little (if anything) into the sound:
  
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HeadAmpGSXmk2.pdf
  
 But a Sabre based DAC (most anyway) are on the brighter side of things. I love using the GS-X Mk2 to review DACs as they just amplify what's coming in and that's basically it (with very, very low distortion). The HA430 is a darker sounding amp that is brilliant, but as with other great amps, you do give some back on transparency. 
  


bigfatpaulie said:


> The GS-X wasn't too bright - the XSaber was too bright.  The GS-X isn't a bright amp at all - it is maintains the fidelity of the original signal.  If something was was bright it was either the headphones (not known as being bright) or the XSaber (known as being bright).
> 
> HA430 is a less resolving, less transparent, more lush sounding amp that was compensating for the DAC.


 
 Lol, never mind my post...what he said ^


----------



## phonyx

darkless said:


> I didn't find the GS-X mkII bright out of my TotalDAC.







nepherte said:


> I wouldn't call the GS-X mk2 bright, it's rather neutral.







bigfatpaulie said:


> The GS-X wasn't too bright - the XSaber was too bright.  The GS-X isn't a bright amp at all - it is maintains the fidelity of the original signal.  If something was was bright it was either the headphones (not known as being bright) or the XSaber (known as being bright).
> 
> HA430 is a less resolving, less transparent, more lush sounding amp that was compensating for the DAC.







macedonianhero said:


> As Paul mentioned, the GS-X imparts very little (if anything) into the sound:
> 
> http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HeadAmpGSXmk2.pdf
> 
> ...




Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm driving the Cavalli with the XSABRE at the moment and it sounds pretty neutral but does lack detail. I think it must be bright DAC with warm amp coming out closer to neutral. 

If I pretty much only listen to HE1K's and (shortly) Utopias, would the Hugo TT be enough or would they benefit from the GSXMKII? Rob seems to suggest adding anything is bad for transparency, so likewise with the DAVE would just driving the headphones from the DAC itself be superior as long as the DAC has enough power?


----------



## Sunya

jawed said:


> Does anyone have a picture of DAVE's new remote control? Google has nothing. But I did come across this beautiful thing:
> ...


 
  
 A remote like this would fit better the Chord aesthetic, all aluminium body and buttons.


----------



## Crgreen

The Nighthawks weren't released until after DAVE, so I don't think they can have been used in its development.


----------



## ubs28

I have no brightness problems with the HD 800 S on the Chord Dave. Would it still makes sense to buy the Utopia?


----------



## STR-1

crgreen said:


> The Nighthawks weren't released until after DAVE, so I don't think they can have been used in its development.



I believe they were out quite some time before Rob finished Dave's coding, I didn't intend to make too much of this, just to suggest that, in addition to the other heafphones he undoubtedly used, Rob would have aimed to settle on coding that made the NHs sound good just as he would have done with the other headphones. This was intended as a post to offer some reassurance that the NHs do pair well with the Dave. I can vouch for that from personal experience.


----------



## phonyx

How do you write an algorithm to sound bright on dark though? I think from Rob's posts he was listening for psychoacoustic cues for space, depth, instrument placement, detail resolution etc rather than 'tone'. So as I understand it (and I could be wrong!) I don't think it really matters what phones he used. He wasn't 'voicing' the algorithm or DAC tone wise, so as long as the phones/speakers he was using he knew really well and could resolve good detail it should be fine.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I know it's been said before but I don't think I will ever get used to (or blasé) about the purity of Dave's presentation. I was just listening to Faure Requiem by Sir Neville Marriner Decca 2011 remaster. The solo voice on Pie Jesu track 4 is so devoid of any digital artefacts or influences. It is the very definition of pure. Simply beautiful.

I find myself continually being thankful for these experiences, such is the power of authentic performance to move us. We are truly fortunate to be able to afford such rewarding experiences I think.


----------



## phonyx

daveredref-iii said:


> I know it's been said before but I don't think I will ever get used to (or blasé) about the purity of Dave's presentation. I was just listening to Faure Requiem by Sir Neville Marriner Decca 2011 remaster. The solo voice on Pie Jesu track 4 is so devoid of any digital artefacts or influences. It is the very definition of pure. Simply beautiful.
> 
> I find myself continually being thankful for these experiences, such is the power of authentic performance to move us. We are truly fortunate to be able to afford such rewarding experiences I think.




Nice. What's the rest of your setup?


----------



## bigfatpaulie

phonyx said:


> Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm driving the Cavalli with the XSABRE at the moment and it sounds pretty neutral but does lack detail. I think it must be bright DAC with warm amp coming out closer to neutral.
> 
> If I pretty much only listen to HE1K's and (shortly) Utopias, would the Hugo TT be enough or would they benefit from the GSXMKII? Rob seems to suggest adding anything is bad for transparency, so likewise with the DAVE would just driving the headphones from the DAC itself be superior as long as the DAC has enough power?


 
  
 I don't have a pair of HE1K's so I can't comment.
  
  
 But I think the jury is still out on this with the Utopia's...   @MacedonianHero feels that the TT though the GS-X with the Utopias is better, I feel that right out of a DAVE, no GS-X in the chain is better.  This, to me, says the differences are subtle, not game changing.  
  
 What I can say is that, for me, right out of the DAVE into the Utopia's vs through the GS-X, I prefer right of out the DAVE.  As transparent as the GS-X is, it isn't as transparent as "nothing" (even good cables add a little something).


----------



## bigfatpaulie

x relic x said:


> I don't have the HD800 so I have no comment besides the fact that I found them too bright when I auditioned them long ago. The perceived detail from a frequency spike (6kHz) is different that the performance of the driver to deliver low distortion and a clean reproduction. The Utopia does this well without relying on a tipped up frequency response IMO. The Nighthawks are also good in this regard, though not quite at the Utopia level. Color me incredibly surprised. I know a lot of people will disagree, but that's how I hear it.
> 
> I'm not saying the HD800 is a bad headphone or isn't a capable headphone, I'm just saying that tonal preferences aside the Nighthawk actually does quite well for detail retrieval.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Haha.  Sorry - I may not have been clear 
  
 What I was trying to say is that the NH's probably won't typically get as good gear upstream as they deserve: like the HD800's typically don't.  I'm not saying they sound bad on more modest stuff (I have not idea, I've never heard them) I'm just saying that the likely deserve and can capitalize on better stuff.  
  
 Basically, I am saying that it sounds like the NH's are a better performer than their price may suggest.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Chord Red Reference III source to 
Chord Dave Dac to 
Chord SPM1200 mk2 Amp to 
Piega Coax 90.2 Speakers


----------



## daryldixon

Has anyone purchased the Dave stand , thoughts ?


----------



## jlbrach

looks like a nice stand but boy is it expensive...you can get a nice amp for the cost of the stand or a great pair of HP's.....


----------



## paul79

Agree, but man, is that stand ever so nice!!!


----------



## x RELIC x

paul79 said:


> Agree, but man, is that stand ever so nice!!!




Yes it is. :wink_face:




Spoiler: My sexy stand (pic)







I know that some find the DAVE design polarizing, especially with the stand, but I find it to complete the total aesthetic.


----------



## phonyx

x relic x said:


> Yes it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I agree, I really like it with the stand.


----------



## EVOLVIST

x relic x said:


> Yes it is. :wink_face:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah, I dig it with the stand. It's like some War of the Worlds type sh!t. 

Ain't gonna buy one, though.


----------



## ubs28

The stand costs so much money and it doesn't affect the sound. I think I rather buy something else for that kind of money


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I agree with those that have said the cradle is expensive but it is not superfluous if you have vibration below it (which will probably be something like 80% of cases.) There is simply no way the little blobs of rubber on the back of Dave could possibly perform to the level of the cradle in terms of suppression of vibrations. 

I paid for the cradle despite the price level. I think it is both beneficial and aesthetically pleasing.....but then again I am fastidious about the detrimental affects of vibration on hifi performance.


----------



## ubs28

daveredref-iii said:


> I agree with those that have said the cradle is expensive but it is not superfluous if you have vibration below it (which will probably be something like 80% of cases.) There is simply no way the little blobs of rubber on the back of Dave could possibly perform to the level of the cradle in terms of suppression of vibrations.
> 
> I paid for the cradle despite the price level. I think it is both beneficial and aesthetically pleasing.....but then again I am fastidious about the detrimental affects of vibration on hifi performance.




How much impact does vibrations have on sound quality? If there is a significant impact on sound quality, then maybe I'll consider it.


----------



## daryldixon

That's nice for sure , makes a big difference in the looks dept .


----------



## miketlse

ubs28 said:


> How much impact does vibrations have on sound quality? If there is a significant impact on sound quality, then maybe I'll consider it.


 

 Rob Watts has posted several times on this subject - he states that the components inside the DAVE are microphonic, and respond well to using the stand to reduce vibration.
  
  
 This came as a shock to me - after spending months reading that DAVE on its own was musical perfection, it seems that one is expected to spend thousands on anti vibration platforms, power supply conditioners, signal lead purifiers etc, in order to improve perfection even further.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

It's a big subject ubs28 but simply speaking vibration introduces a lack of choherance/focus, (which is logical really) and a higher noise floor. It can also effect musicality. I say 'can' because it is not always the case and I have experienced both negative and positive affects on musicality in different situations. You have to go by your ears on musicality. I have my own theories on it which amounts to it being intrinsically linked to micro dynamics and tuning of a system imo and is worthy of a 10000 word paper tbh.  The first two points are absolutes though imo.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

On a different note I was listening to Devon Sproule album - 'I love you go easy, easy' I have found when listening to studio recorded vocals via Dave that I am more aware of the influence of microphones and compressors on eq and dynamics. Many sound like electronic presentations of the vocal to me. Dave doesn't hide the fact that each vocal needed to go through electronics and the choices of producers and engineers shape that sound. I have always found that for the most part Devon Sproule recordings avoid the influence of mic and compressor. I would love to know what mic the producer uses for her voice.

Anyway, what I also notice is that whilst the vocal sound is clean as a whistle the focus of it is less real. It is wider than real life. I imagine this to be as a result of the ADCs they used. It got me to thinking that a Davina in and Dave out setup should provide a very tight and focussed image given the superior resolution. I am looking forward to hearing what Davina can do I must say.


----------



## GeneralSensible

> Originally Posted by *Jawed*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm afraid this will be a bit of a disappointment for the both of you, but here is a picture of the remote control which came with my new DAVE just about a week ago:
  
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6sZRnAa7uLibWRVYmJ6V1dHVHBWaVBGSmRYbTZSZEFVNjdV
  
 Sorry I have to use a link for this, but I do not have sufficient rights to post pictures on this forum yet.
  
 Peter.


----------



## phonyx

generalsensible said:


> I'm afraid this will be a bit of a disappointment for the both of you, but here is a picture of the remote control which came with my new DAVE just about a week ago:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6sZRnAa7uLibWRVYmJ6V1dHVHBWaVBGSmRYbTZSZEFVNjdV
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's hideous. Who on earth designs the remotes and why don't they have a chat to those that design the chassis?


----------



## GeneralSensible

miketlse said:


> Rob Watts has posted several times on this subject - he states that the components inside the DAVE are microphonic, and respond well to using the stand to reduce vibration.
> 
> 
> This came as a shock to me - after spending months reading that DAVE on its own was musical perfection, it seems that one is expected to spend thousands on anti vibration platforms, power supply conditioners, signal lead purifiers etc, in order to improve perfection even further.


 
  
 Thousands is a bit execrated. I placed my DAVE on a Vibrapod/Vibracone combo and this really made some difference in control, soundstage, bass etc. I also placed two AudioQuest Jitterbugs on the USB bus of my MAC-Mini. Rob Watts talks about this in a post on page 230 of this forum-thread. The Jitterbugs also contributed to a slightly better soundstage and control.
  
 Mind you, all are slight improvements because the DAVE will sound awesome placed on a cardboard box as well. But I considered an investment of about $ 120,- a bargain for slightly better sound quality.
  
 Peter.


----------



## GeneralSensible

phonyx said:


> That's hideous. Who on earth designs the remotes and why don't they have a chat to those that design the chassis?


 
  
 I totally agree, but on the other hand this remote does exactly what it needs to do and I'm not listening to the remote anyway


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Just read the Hifi+ review of Dave. Often these mainstream reviewers hedge their bets a little but this couldn't be more emphatic. I like that he uses the word 'we' throughout the review and states that it is the best even at 10x the price. The regular use of the word 'we' seems to suggest his colleagues think the same.


----------



## supabayes

My DAVE was shipped with the old remote, which I find to be functional but bulky. Would prefer a smaller simpler remote to make it easier to find the relevant buttons. I have too many remotes and would prefer to cut down. I like what Grace Designs has done with the m920, programming its IR codes such that it will work with an Apple TV 3 remote, which I personally think is the best looking Apple TV remote and is well built and cheap to replace.


----------



## Music Alchemist

daveredref-iii said:


> I agree with those that have said the cradle is expensive but it is not superfluous if you have vibration below it (which will probably be something like 80% of cases.) There is simply no way the little blobs of rubber on the back of Dave could possibly perform to the level of the cradle in terms of suppression of vibrations.
> 
> I paid for the cradle despite the price level. I think it is both beneficial and aesthetically pleasing.....but then again I am fastidious about the detrimental affects of vibration on hifi performance.


 
  
 I wonder how the stand compares to hardcore vibration control products like the Stillpoints Ultra 6 footers. (Or ESS Rack.) The appeal of the stand is merely aesthetic for me, at any rate.
  


generalsensible said:


> I'm afraid this will be a bit of a disappointment for the both of you, but here is a picture of the remote control which came with my new DAVE just about a week ago:


 
  
 To those who know: didn't the DAVE used to always come with this remote?
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## Ashrunner

generalsensible said:


> I'm afraid this will be a bit of a disappointment for the both of you, but here is a picture of the remote control which came with my new DAVE just about a week ago:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6sZRnAa7uLibWRVYmJ6V1dHVHBWaVBGSmRYbTZSZEFVNjdV
> 
> ...


 
 I much prefer this remote and hope that mine will come with it!  Also, for those thinking about getting the stand for the Dave, note that prices for the stand went down in the U.S. on Nov. 1.  I can't remember how much the stand is now, however.  Also, Moon Audio and other have already listed the Brexit sales price for some Chord products like the Hugo / Mojo.


----------



## Jawed

I wonder if it's possible for Rob to implement his design across multiple FPGAs. e.g. two FPGAs per channel, with a total of 4 FPGAs. Each channel would start with one FPGA doing acquisition of PCM or DSD then filtering using WTA algorithm. The second FPGA in that channel would then do linear interpolation to 2048FS, noise-shaping and then drive for the multi-element output for that channel.

This way he could free himself of the limits of the currently available FPGAs (apparently limited by DSP core count). Four of the FPGAs in DAVE would consume a fair bit of power and I suppose it would need a much bigger chassis.

Soon this leads to thoughts of what would happen if you used two or four of the FPGAs in Mojo. They must be pretty cheap and they're fairly low in power...


----------



## miketlse

jawed said:


> I wonder if it's possible for Rob to implement his design across multiple FPGAs. e.g. two FPGAs per channel, with a total of 4 FPGAs. Each channel would start with one FPGA doing acquisition of PCM or DSD then filtering using WTA algorithm. The second FPGA in that channel would then do linear interpolation to 2048FS, noise-shaping and then drive for the multi-element output for that channel.
> 
> This way he could free himself of the limits of the currently available FPGAs (apparently limited by DSP core count). Four of the FPGAs in DAVE would consume a fair bit of power and I suppose it would need a much bigger chassis.
> 
> Soon this leads to thoughts of what would happen if you used two or four of the FPGAs in Mojo. They must be pretty cheap and they're fairly low in power...


 
  
 I presume that the main issue becomes keeping the left and right channels in sync - being slightly out of sync would affect the position of instruments/singers on the sound stage.


----------



## Beolab

jawed said:


> I wonder if it's possible for Rob to implement his design across multiple FPGAs. e.g. two FPGAs per channel, with a total of 4 FPGAs. Each channel would start with one FPGA doing acquisition of PCM or DSD then filtering using WTA algorithm. The second FPGA in that channel would then do linear interpolation to 2048FS, noise-shaping and then drive for the multi-element output for that channel.
> 
> This way he could free himself of the limits of the currently available FPGAs (apparently limited by DSP core count). Four of the FPGAs in DAVE would consume a fair bit of power and I suppose it would need a much bigger chassis.
> 
> Soon this leads to thoughts of what would happen if you used two or four of the FPGAs in Mojo. They must be pretty cheap and they're fairly low in power...




Then you can imagine if Rob + Intel did a collaboration where the guys at INTEL developed a custom made FPGA with 5 million Taps, and then 50 people at Intel wrote the code with Robś supervision and iron hand lead the project. 

If only this where cost efficiency it could be a reality, but sadly it is only an utopia..


----------



## daryldixon

daveredref-iii said:


> I agree with those that have said the cradle is expensive but it is not superfluous if you have vibration below it (which will probably be something like 80% of cases.) There is simply no way the little blobs of rubber on the back of Dave could possibly perform to the level of the cradle in terms of suppression of vibrations.
> 
> I paid for the cradle despite the price level. I think it is both beneficial and aesthetically pleasing.....but then again I am fastidious about the detrimental affects of vibration on hifi performance.


 

 I placed my order today for the cradle , Ive had it on my mind from day one and just had to have it .


----------



## thunder 99

Hi guys
  
 So i just bought a DAVE. But I am having issues connecting it with my Antipodes DX server.
  
 Any ideas?
  
 When connecting the DAVE via USB Audio 5V On on the Antipodes, the DAVE does not detect any audio.
  
 Cannot find anything on the internet. Wondering if someone has any suggestions what I may be able to do next?. So far 2 hours down and no sound from the DAVE.
  
 Thanks in advance


----------



## x RELIC x

thunder 99 said:


> Hi guys
> 
> So i just bought a DAVE. But I am having issues connecting it with my Antipodes DX server.
> 
> ...




This may be _really obvious_, but have you changed the input on the DAVE's menu to USB?


----------



## thunder 99

Yes it says USB on top
 Registers as Chord DAVE on Vortexbox software on Antipodes DX too


----------



## thunder 99

I am not sure if the USB 5V on or off takes any issues....


----------



## x RELIC x

thunder 99 said:


> Yes it says USB on top
> Registers as Chord DAVE on Vortexbox software on Antipodes DX too




I just looked at the Antipodes manual. Are you connecting the USB 5V off? That may be the data port you should connect to the DAVE.


----------



## thunder 99

I tried that ,
 With the USB 5V OFF - Chord DAVE disappears of the ALSA device list - But Chord dave has display NO DATA - But Squeezebox on Antipodes shows it detects DAVE
 With the USB  5V ON - Chord DAVE reappears of the ALSA device list - But Chord dave has displays 768Hz - But Squeezebox on Antipodes shows that it cannot detect any player.
 Eitherway no sound.
 Very perplexed.


----------



## x RELIC x

thunder 99 said:


> I tried that ,
> With the USB 5V OFF - Chord DAVE disappears of the ALSA device list - But Chord dave has display NO DATA - But Squeezebox on Antipodes shows it detects DAVE
> With the USB  5V ON - Chord DAVE reappears of the ALSA device list - But Chord dave has displays 768Hz - But Squeezebox on Antipodes shows that it cannot detect any player.
> Eitherway no sound.
> Very perplexed.




I believe the DAVE needs the 5V through USB to activate. I don't know if this is the exact issue or not as I have no experience with the Antipodes DX. Or it could be a driver/compatibility issue (doubtful though). Must be very frustrating. Sorry I can't be of more help.

Can you at least try plugging the DAVE in to a laptop or computer to rule out the DAVE having an issue? If on Windows you should install the Chord driver.

Edit: Looking deeper, have you set up the Squeezelite Settings?

http://qlatu.com/downloads/squeezebox.pdf


----------



## thunder 99

Thanks for your kind input RELIC, quite frustrating
  
 Sorry here is the sequence
 With the USB 5V OFF connection - Chord DAVE disappears from the ALSA device list - But Chord dave displays 768Hz - Squeezebox on Antipodes too shows it does not detect DAVE
 With the USB  5V ON connection - Chord DAVE reappears on the ALSA device list - Chord displays NO DATA - But Squeezebox on Antipodes shows that it can detect DAVE
  
 Any ideas now where I may be able to start?


----------



## thunder 99

DAVE works on the computer - hurray! Pure bliss!!


----------



## x RELIC x

thunder 99 said:


> Thanks for your kind input RELIC, quite frustrating
> 
> Sorry here is the sequence
> With the USB 5V OFF connection - Chord DAVE disappears from the ALSA device list - But Chord dave displays 768Hz - Squeezebox on Antipodes too shows it does not detect DAVE
> ...




It seems like a simple matter of devices communicating, but like I said I have no experience with the Antipodes DX or the Squeezbox app settings. One thing to try is make sure you are using the 5V USB and power both devices off. Next power on the DAVE and wait until the Mute message disapears. Now power on the Antipodes DX and see if they can now communicate. I'm wondering if it's a handshake issue similar to what happens with smartphones and portable DACs. Besides that I really don't know.

Congrats on your DAVE purchase by the way. Hopefully someone else can jump in with some advice if the above doesn't do anything. In the meantime, I would try hooking it up to a computer to make sure that the DAVE is working if you can. Glad the DAVE isn't the issue!


----------



## Toolman

daryldixon said:


> daveredref-iii said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with those that have said the cradle is expensive but it is not superfluous if you have vibration below it (which will probably be something like 80% of cases.) There is simply no way the little blobs of rubber on the back of Dave could possibly perform to the level of the cradle in terms of suppression of vibrations.
> ...




Congrats...this cradle by itself is a piece of art.

About the only things I dislike about the cradle are (1) the high price, obviously :rolleyes: and (2) it tilts DAVE slightly downwards, and can pose some problem for longer jack connector or stiffer cable to be plugged in to DAVE.


----------



## thunder 99

Still struggling to make the Antipodes work, any suggestions would be welcome!
 Cheers


----------



## Beolab

thunder 99 said:


> Still struggling to make the Antipodes work, any suggestions would be welcome!
> Cheers



Firstly do you have a second DAC besides DAVE to try out with? 

Then how do control the Antipodes? 

Through an App or a a setup program in your PC / MAC or via the remote ? 

I would reset the Antipode to default and delete the APP / Setup program and start all over again . 

I think you have missed the question where you answer on what the purpose is with the 5v USB is connected to, because sometimes the USB can be setup to receive or send. 

This is the case i think, or else if the Antipode are setup correctly and tested with another DAC and you have e-mailed Antipodes support, then it could be a faulty product, but i question it..


----------



## thunder 99

Thanks BeoLab
 Antipodes has a web interface (Vortexbox). Issue is
 The previous DAC was VEGA which was running on it fine.
 There are two USB outputs on Antipodes DX - USB 5V ON and USB 5V OFF.
 Issue is that With the Dave plugged into the 5V ON output, Chord appears on ALSA device list as well as in the app logitech squeezebox in the Antipodes but Chord displays NO DATA.
 With the Dave plugged into the 5V OFF output, Chord disappears from the ALSA device list as well as logitech squeezebox app But Chord displays frequency. There is again, no sound.


----------



## ecwl

I'm not familiar with Antipodes so I just read some reviews about it. It sounds like multiple reviewers ran into some problems getting it to work with some specific DACs. But then they were able to get decent support from the Antipodes manufacturer. So maybe that's the better way to go...


----------



## Beolab

This could be the problem: 

This info is taken from Antipodes support page for the DX: 

USB Audio 2.0

Antipodes digital sources use native Linux 4 USB drivers that are 100% compatible with the only prevailing USB audio standard - USB Audio 2.0 (not to be confused with USB 2). Unfortunately, not all DACs have USB inputs that are fully compliant with this standard, and you may strike compatibility problems. These issues are not controllable by Antipodes Audio and if you need clarification of compatibility you should ask your DAC manufacturer whether their USB input has been tested for use with Linux digital sources. Because we cannot know when a manufacturer changes its USB firmware we cannot tell you with any certainty whether a DAC will be compatible.

So does the DAVE support true Linux USB 2.0 Audio @Rob Watts ?


Maybe you can go in to the WebOs interface and set the 5v USB output to support USB 1.0 just to see if you can get a connection.


----------



## ecwl

I clearly am in one of my moods, even with listening to DAVE with Utopia...

This info is taken from Chord DAVE manual:

Dave uses a class compliant USB interface so it does not require any driver software on Mac, Android or Linux devices. Simply plug a USB2.0 USB cable between Dave and the computer, tablet or phone and it will be automatically detected and play.

It is true that the manual didn't specify DAVE is USB audio 2.0 class compliant but I think this is probably implied because I don't think there are any modern USB receiver chips that are not USB audio 2.0 class compliant. But then I may be wrong.


----------



## ubs28

At what volume level should you put the Dave at when using an external amplifier? Should it be at 0 db?


----------



## ecwl

ubs28 said:


> At what volume level should you put the Dave at when using an external amplifier? Should it be at 0 db?




I presume you mean a headphone amp with analog volume control. I think most people just put Chord DAVE in DAC mode. According to the manual, that is actually equivalent to +3dB (3V unbalanced, 6V balanced) output. The problem is, some amplifiers can't handle such a high input voltage. I think that's why we see some people not put the DAVE in DAC mode and then reduce the output volume to 0dB or -3dB to optimize the performance of their DAVE with their favorite amplifier. The kicker that I haven't heard yet is that the analog volume control of most amplifiers are not perfect so there's actually an optimal volume for most volume controls. I used to own the Benchmark DAC1 and I can tell you that the analog pots sound best within a specific range. As a result I used to use digital volume control while leaving the analog volume control fixed on the Benchmark. If you can figure out where your amplifier has the best linearity and channel matching at which volume, i suspect the best sound would come from leaving the analog volume control on the amplifier fixed at that volume and then just set your listening volume using DAVE.


----------



## ubs28

ecwl said:


> I presume you mean a headphone amp with analog volume control. I think most people just put Chord DAVE in DAC mode. According to the manual, that is actually equivalent to +3dB (3V unbalanced, 6V balanced) output. The problem is, some amplifiers can't handle such a high input voltage. I think that's why we see some people not put the DAVE in DAC mode and then reduce the output volume to 0dB or -3dB to optimize the performance of their DAVE with their favorite amplifier. The kicker that I haven't heard yet is that the analog volume control of most amplifiers are not perfect so there's actually an optimal volume for most volume controls. I used to own the Benchmark DAC1 and I can tell you that the analog pots sound best within a specific range. As a result I used to use digital volume control while leaving the analog volume control fixed on the Benchmark. If you can figure out where your amplifier has the best linearity and channel matching at which volume, i suspect the best sound would come from leaving the analog volume control on the amplifier fixed at that volume and then just set your listening volume using DAVE.


 
  
 Thanks for the help. I noticed the same thing too. If I go too high on my amplifier (like on 3 o'clock setting) the sound signature changes. Hence why I don't go near max on the volume settings.
  
 I think I'll connect the HD 650 and HD 800 on the amplifier and keep the HD 800 S directly to the Chord Dave. That makes it easier if I want to switch between headphones instead of plugging and unplugging headphones all the time since the Chord Dave has only 1 headphone output.


----------



## ecwl

Ah. I see. Looking at the specs for Taurus, you could put DAVE in DAC mode. Or if you find it too cumbersome, you can just set it to +3dB. It also seems that you can connect DAVE via RCA to Taurus which according to Rob Watts should probably sound slightly better than XLR. Or you can go nuts trying to find the best volume setting on the Taurus... I wouldn't recommend it unless you're supremely obsessive compulsive. Therein madness lies...


----------



## daryldixon

Antipodes can also do a remote connection to the DX I would contact Mark at Antipodes or http://verastarr.com does support


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## paul79

Totaldac Server is a Linux Server, Linux Real time in fact, and it works fine on the DAVE....


----------



## jlbrach

The DAC mode is -3 not + 3 FWIIW


----------



## AndrewOld

generalsensible said:


> I'm afraid this will be a bit of a disappointment for the both of you, but here is a picture of the remote control which came with my new DAVE just about a week ago:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6sZRnAa7uLibWRVYmJ6V1dHVHBWaVBGSmRYbTZSZEFVNjdV
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the info Peter. Think I'll see if I can get one. At least it will stop me being irritated by a rubbish plastic remote with loads of buttons that don't work as labelled.  Just about the only thing that annoys me about my DAVE is the inability to directly select an input from the remote. Actually, the other thing is that DAVE is sometimes unresponsive to the remote, especially to holding the volume buttons down - nothing happens to the volume. I have to tap out each increment/decrement to volume. Once DAVE starts responding to individual taps, then the repeat seems to work. It feels like DAVE is so intent on playing music that it forgets to pay attention to the remote! I've changed batteries, made sure I use it close - same issues. Can live with it, but would rather not.


----------



## daryldixon

I just spent a few minutes with my Harmony remote and created a device "DAVE " and programmed the Volume up / Volume down and it works awesome . I can go anywhere in the house and it will get a signal no line of sight needed . Im going to program the other needed commands later . 
Also maybe Chord would email the HEX codes to make it more simple .

Also I use the App from harmony on my iPhone so I can use that as a remote also . If one wanted to just use a phone for control this is all you would need 

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/logitech-harmony-home-hub-black/1483019.p?skuId=1483019&ref=212&loc=1&ksid=c69a9f67-6328-4074-a024-36b6b3cdfd5d&ksprof_id=16&ksaffcode=pg118849&ksdevice=c&lsft=ref:212,loc:2&gclid=CKjZy6mzktACFZSFaQodDAwIDw


----------



## x RELIC x

ubs28 said:


> At what volume level should you put the Dave at when using an external amplifier? Should it be at 0 db?





ecwl said:


> I presume you mean a headphone amp with analog volume control. I think most people just put Chord DAVE in DAC mode. According to the manual, that is actually equivalent to +3dB (3V unbalanced, 6V balanced) output. The problem is, some amplifiers can't handle such a high input voltage. I think that's why we see some people not put the DAVE in DAC mode and then reduce the output volume to 0dB or -3dB to optimize the performance of their DAVE with their favorite amplifier. The kicker that I haven't heard yet is that the analog volume control of most amplifiers are not perfect so there's actually an optimal volume for most volume controls. I used to own the Benchmark DAC1 and I can tell you that the analog pots sound best within a specific range. As a result I used to use digital volume control while leaving the analog volume control fixed on the Benchmark. If you can figure out where your amplifier has the best linearity and channel matching at which volume, i suspect the best sound would come from leaving the analog volume control on the amplifier fixed at that volume and then just set your listening volume using DAVE.




Actually DAC mode preset sets the DAVE to -3dB which is 3Vrms SE and 6Vrms XLR. To get closer to the more common 2Vrms SE and 4Vrms XLR set the volume in the pre-amp preset to -7dB. Some amps can't handle the 3Vrms/6Vrms input. 

+3dB would be waaaaaay too much for the amps input.


----------



## ecwl

Oops... yes. I guess -3dB not +3dB. I was quoting the manual and I forgot there was an error in it. I think this was discussed in this forum way, way back.


----------



## thunder 99

OK got it working with the help of Antipodes, thanks for the help guys!.
 In the end it was a fairly benign issue.


----------



## phonyx

andrewold said:


> Thanks for the info Peter. Think I'll see if I can get one. At least it will stop me being irritated by a rubbish plastic remote with loads of buttons that don't work as labelled.  Just about the only thing that annoys me about my DAVE is the inability to directly select an input from the remote. Actually, the other thing is that DAVE is sometimes unresponsive to the remote, especially to holding the volume buttons down - nothing happens to the volume. I have to tap out each increment/decrement to volume. Once DAVE starts responding to individual taps, then the repeat seems to work. It feels like DAVE is so intent on playing music that it forgets to pay attention to the remote! I've changed batteries, made sure I use it close - same issues. Can live with it, but would rather not.




Some have reported this happens on the Hugo TT too. Given the quality of the sound and the case work (and the price point!) Chords remotes leave a lot to be desired and appear out of place paired with such great items. Rob says transparency is key and recommends DAC direct to headphones or direct to power amps - the latter could easily be ruled out if their remotes remain this bad, which is a real problem.


----------



## GeneralSensible

andrewold said:


> Thanks for the info Peter. Think I'll see if I can get one. At least it will stop me being irritated by a rubbish plastic remote with loads of buttons that don't work as labelled.  Just about the only thing that annoys me about my DAVE is the inability to directly select an input from the remote. Actually, the other thing is that DAVE is sometimes unresponsive to the remote, especially to holding the volume buttons down - nothing happens to the volume. I have to tap out each increment/decrement to volume. Once DAVE starts responding to individual taps, then the repeat seems to work. It feels like DAVE is so intent on playing music that it forgets to pay attention to the remote! I've changed batteries, made sure I use it close - same issues. Can live with it, but would rather not.


 
  
 The new one is also made of plastic. It isn't too bad, the DAVE responses quite good and the plastic is not totally "el cheapo".
  
 About DAVE not responding to some commands, there can be an explanation. If you run it in DAC mode some commands are locked out. I ask a question about this to Chord and the answer of Colin Pratt from Chord was:
  
 "
_DAVE when in DAC mode has some of the functions locked out so as to avoid pressing certain functions._
_When in DAC mode the remote allows for input selection, display choice and mute._
_The thought process was that once set up (ie phase) you would not look to change certain settings._
 "
  
 Hope this is helpfull for some of you.
  
 Peter.


----------



## thunder 99

Just to wrap up, the settings on the Antipodes DX that worked are:
 Connect DAVE to USB on 5V on the Antipods DX and select USB Input device 1 on the interface.
 If you have any other issues please do not hesitate to let me know. But the antipodes support service on email: support@antipodes.global is sublime.
  
 Btw, I had another question up my sleeve,
  
 So far I have been using my previous Antipodes DX with DAVE for unbelivable HQ audio
 This is where I feel the DAVE has revolutionized my way of experiencing audio - I also had a previous Audiophileo 2 with BNC connector that I am using with a short Wireworld Platinum USB cable to connect to a laptop to enjoy concerts put up on places like youtube. I don't feel like I am missing anything and I feel as if I am almost there on some of them.
  
 Here is the sticky bit I needed advice on:
 I want to connect my computer (bit far away) to the DAVE. Wondering what the cheapest way to do so would be without compromising SQ too much. Reason I would be happy with not the greatest sound is that I want to experiment watching movies as well as games through the DAVE. But really dont have those many funds to play with after buying the DAVE. Wondering what you guys can recommend to connect a PC, issue being it is a bit far away (approximately 3.5-5m) to one of the DAVE's non USB inputs. I dont have any gear left over and would basically need to buy it including the cable.
  
 Kind Regards,
 Thunder


----------



## TheAttorney

generalsensible said:


> About DAVE not responding to some commands, there can be an explanation. If you run it in DAC mode some commands are locked out. I ask a question about this to Chord and the answer of Colin Pratt from Chord was:
> 
> "
> _DAVE when in DAC mode has some of the functions locked out so as to avoid pressing certain functions._
> ...


 
 So, the Chord team _deliberately _went out of their way to annoy their customers? By design?
  
 Colin seems to have fundamentally misunderstood the point of the absolute phase switch. 
 And other functions like the HF filter would be just as valid to be A/B'd by remote as by local change.
  
 I think a more likely explanation is that Dave's menu scrolling solution is inherently unsuitable for remote control (I may have already mentioned that already 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





). And the Chord team ran out of time and inspiration to enhance the design - so they simply disabled the bits that were difficult.


----------



## x RELIC x

Why not just use the pre-amp preset? It's the same audio path and you can access the desired functions and adjust the digital volume control to output a more reasonable Voltage to an amp.

That said, I agree about the remote and it's ease of use and aesthetics.


----------



## AndrewOld

generalsensible said:


> The new one is also made of plastic. It isn't too bad, the DAVE responses quite good and the plastic is not totally "el cheapo".
> 
> About DAVE not responding to some commands, there can be an explanation. If you run it in DAC mode some commands are locked out. I ask a question about this to Chord and the answer of Colin Pratt from Chord was:
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks Peter - as it happens I use my DAVE in pre-amp mode directly into active speakers, so the DAC mode explanation/excuse for the unresponsive buttons doesn't apply to me. My issue is that sometimes the DAVE doesn't seem to want to respond to the volume control, particularly if it is held down while music is playing. And there is no way of directly selecting an input. Scrolling isn't much use if you don't know what input is currently selected, and if you have a display mode that turns the display off, there is in any case no way of knowing what input is selected (even if you could see the display - it might be behind you, or on the other side of the room.) So all in all the remote is disappointing. I can live with it. The new one looks pants too, so I might hunt around to see if I can find a simple "one for all" type control with some nice big buttons, and fewer useless keys.


----------



## Crgreen

Immensely helpful info about the "old" remote, and it explains why I couldn't access the menu in DAC mode. I don't remember seeing that info in the manual, but I might have missed it.


----------



## jlbrach

I have been listening to Dylan's Highway 61 with my Dave and Utopia and in particular on Tombstone Blues i was shocked to hear for the first time Michael Bloomfield's guitar standing out to my ears and his savage solos isolated.....the beauty of the Dave is literally rediscovering your music as if you were listening to it for the first time...and owning some 5000 albums I have a lot of rediscovering to do...!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Since matching up Dave with the exceptionally fast, accurate and detailed ribbon tweeter of my Piega Coax I have been looking for a recording to showcase Dave's ability to cast a deep believable sound stage and have now found something which I believe does this Dac justice in this aspect of its impressive abilities. The recording took place in 1980 at Merton College Chapel Oxford and was performed by The Tallis Scholars under the direction of Peter Phillips. It is a Gimmel recording of 'Allegri Miserere'. The recording engineer Bob Auger must have gotten the phase of this recording bang on because it is spookilly believable (as a sound space) particularly when the near field choir go silent and the choir at the back of the chapel sings. You are left in no doubt that Dave really can reproduce authentic sound spaces. I have the 2005 mastering and, as I say, it is a real show stopper for Dave.


----------



## miketlse

daveredref-iii said:


> Since matching up Dave with the exceptionally fast, accurate and detailed ribbon tweeter of my Piega Coax I have been looking for a recording to showcase Dave's ability to cast a deep believable sound stages and have now found something which I believe does this Dac justice in this aspect of its impressive abilities. The recording took place in 1980 at Merton College Chapel Oxford and was performed by The Tallis Scholars under the direction of Peter Phillips. It is a Gimmel recording of 'Allegri Miserere'. The recording engineer Bob Auger must have gotten the phase of this recording bang on because it is spookilly believable (as a sound space) particularly when the near field choir go silent and the choir at the back of the chapel sings. You are left in no doubt that Dave really can reproduce authentic sound spaces. I have the 2005 mastering and, as I say, it is a real show stopper for Dave.


 
  
 Maybe part of the magic is due to the performance being well recorded.
  
 There are several versions of this performance available, and I have a copy of the pureaudio release  https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B00GIXR4XE  ,  because that contains the CD version, plus a bluray with HiRes versions in both stereo and 5.1.
 It must have been miked to make 5.1 possible, and then mixed down to the stereo version that you are listening to via DAVE.
  
 Now imagine a version of DAVE that could handle 5.1 recordings.........


----------



## GeneralSensible

crgreen said:


> Immensely helpful info about the "old" remote, and it explains why I couldn't access the menu in DAC mode. I don't remember seeing that info in the manual, but I might have missed it.


 
 Not just the "old" remote. I actually own the new one. The commands are locked out in the DAVE. This has nothing to do with the remote control units.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Unfair comparison of the day? I've auditioning the Mojo. People say that the Mojo is 80% of the DAVE. More like 60%.

I'm not sure if that's an indictment on the Mojo or if the DAVE is just that good.

Of course a huge price difference.


----------



## Beolab

60% could be 10% in another mans world  

The most huge diffrence is the lower noise floor that gives better separation and clarity who draws you further into the recording. Then it got better more detailed lower end, but i would not say 40% better, more like it is better in many aspects, if it where 40% better, then the DAVE should reconstruct a new song that was unrecognisable from the "original" played from a normal DAC.


----------



## EVOLVIST

beolab said:


> 60% could be 10% in another mans world
> 
> The most huge diffrence is the lower noise floor and that gives better separation and clarity who draws you further into the recording. Then it got better more detailed lower end, but i would not say 40% better, more like 20% and that is huge if 20% represent total silents of the information vs DAVE.




Yeah, I can dig it, but with the Mojo I thought it sounded very etched compared to the DAVE. But, I mean, isn't that usually the experience when one goes from one of the best in a category to something less?


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> Unfair comparison of the day? I've auditioning the Mojo. People say that the Mojo is 80% of the DAVE. More like 60%.
> 
> I'm not sure if that's an indictment on the Mojo or if the DAVE is just that good.
> 
> Of course a huge price difference.


 
  
 DAVE's noise floor is identical to Mojo (-180dB) and both have no measurable noise floor modulation according to Rob and so this is not how DAVE is better than Mojo.  In this regard, both of these DACs are better than any non-Chord DAC currently in production.
  
 DAVE has a better power supply with lower impedance than Mojo.  This results in better dynamic contrasts, bass, definition and all the other things that go along with a better power supply.  
  
 DAVE also has lower distortion.  At RMAF, I witnessed Audio Precision measure both a Mojo and then a DAVE and this was very evident.  No DAC, according to AP, has ever measured as low as the DAVE.
  
 Obviously, DAVE has many more TAPS = more detail.  This is simply a fact.  A system that cannot reveal much difference between the DAVE and other DACs, Mojo included, is simply not resolving enough (at least, that is what I am finding in my own system).  As I have upgraded my source, the power supply to my source, my cabling, my speakers/headphones, my amp, etc., the DAVE has scaled with all of my upgrades.  I don't believe I have yet tapped what the DAVE can do.  When Blu2, DAVINA and Chord's digital amps come out next year, the truer difference between DAVE and Mojo (and any other DAC), I think, will become very evident because only DAVE will be able to fully take advantage of these technologies.


----------



## AndrewOld

daveredref-iii said:


> Since matching up Dave with the exceptionally fast, accurate and detailed ribbon tweeter of my Piega Coax I have been looking for a recording to showcase Dave's ability to cast a deep believable sound stage and have now found something which I believe does this Dac justice in this aspect of its impressive abilities. The recording took place in 1980 at Merton College Chapel Oxford and was performed by The Tallis Scholars under the direction of Peter Phillips. It is a Gimmel recording of 'Allegri Miserere'. The recording engineer Bob Auger must have gotten the phase of this recording bang on because it is spookilly believable (as a sound space) particularly when the near field choir go silent and the choir at the back of the chapel sings. You are left in no doubt that Dave really can reproduce authentic sound spaces. I have the 2005 mastering and, as I say, it is a real show stopper for Dave.


 

 That was a famous recording, but it will have been analogue in 1980 .. the same choir re-recorded the same piece (actually two versions of the same piece) digitally in 2005 in the chapel of Merton College. It is a superb recording. You can download it in hi-res or cd quality here  http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDGIM041 and the booklet here http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/810412-B.pdf


----------



## Crgreen

I heard the Tallis Scolars perform the Allegri in Chester Cafhedral, with the three vocal groups distributed accordingly. At the high C from the soprano, I thought I was levitating. 

I also heard the Monteverdi Vespers there (including Emma Kirkby) with the setting sun glowing through the stained glass windows as the opening tocatta rang out. Another glorious performance. For sheer beauty of sound, I recommend the William Christie, Les Arts Florisants recording.


----------



## EVOLVIST

romaz said:


> DAVE's noise floor is identical to Mojo (-180dB) and both have no measurable noise floor modulation according to Rob and so this is not how DAVE is better than Mojo.  In this regard, both of these DACs are better than any non-Chord DAC currently in production.
> 
> DAVE has a better power supply with lower impedance than Mojo.  This results in better dynamic contrasts, bass, definition and all the other things that go along with a better power supply.
> 
> ...




So you're saying that trading my DAVE for a Mojo was an ill-advised move?


----------



## jlbrach

I think the Hugo is the best portable option on the market today...I think the Mojo is 90% of the Hugo and i think they both obviously pale in comparison to the Dave but you can't take the Dave with you on a trip without a lot of effort and the Mojo costs 1/25th of the Dave so all in all I think it is a pretty solid option


----------



## Jawed

When I was comparing DAVE with TT yesterday:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/756029/chord-hugo-tt-high-end-dac-amp-impressions-thread/795#post_12988529

the biggest shock was how noisy DAVE makes TT sound. The measured numbers for both are "far below" what traditional arguments about the audibility of hi-fi measurements would imply. Yet there it was, lots more noise. Some of the noise really felt like the noise modulation that Rob talks about, e.g. rising and falling as a singer sung each word. I described it as a "river of noise lapping at the edges of their singing". For some reason this effect seemed strongest with vocals.

Curiously in some pieces of music, noise in the recording (relatively loud hiss or mains hum buzz) was magnified by TT in comparison with DAVE. Even when I turned DAVE up much louder, the noise in the recording remained relatively quieter versus the music.

Occasionally I also heard a sudden change in loudness of the music when extra instruments joined in, when listening with TT. This change in apparent loudness was completely absent with DAVE. It seemed simply like distortion, what we often describe as a recording having a congested feel.

I don't know what mechanisms in digital to analogue conversion are causing these "faults", WTA filtering, noise shaping or the sophistication of the output elements (20 in DAVE versus 4). 

Obviously, by plugging headphones directly into TT and DAVE I'm exposing the comparison to the quality of headphone drive. I definitely noticed that TT "struggles" with HD 800 S somewhere in the region of -20dB on the volume control (obviously varies with the nature of the music), getting softer in the bass than DAVE.

Perhaps these "faults" I heard might just be due to running the TT straight into headphones, with TT being closer to its limit. (Directly driving headphones is the only way I listen, though.)

After all that, I really think the proof is in the listening. Mojo has a wide-ranging set of reasons for sounding worse than DAVE (no galvanic isolation in addition to what I've listed above). What I learnt from my comparison is that the family sound of these Chord DACs is very strong. They make thoroughly worthwhile music for the same basic reasons.

It might be better to simply say that the Chord DAC scale is completely different than any other DACs. Other DACs are on an orthogonal and irrelevant scale in my opinion. My phone (which I enjoy despite the fact it's basically crap) makes music seem as though it's in black and white, not the colour I get with my TT. I strongly suspect most DACs are, at best, sepia tinted. It seems entirely possible to me that most of the world is listening in black and white...


----------



## analogmusic

When I auditioned Dave vs TT, (and this is personall), the huge soundstage of the Dave, and spacious sound of the Dave was 3 Dimensional compared to the much flatter and congested (by comparison with Dave) soundstage of the TT. And I understand this is due to the much superior noise shaper of the Dave (-350 DB) compared to -200DB of Hugo TT
  
 Also the musicality of Dave was much more "goosebump" inducing than TT, I guess that is the 256 FS WTA filter, the additional taps, and the 20 E DAC compared to the 4E in Hugo, TT and Mojo.
  
 And I do agree about the noise, in isolation, Hugo, Mojo and TT sound very fine, well, that is until one hears Dave.
  
 It is like Watching a Blu-ray (Dave) and then going back to DVD (Hugo TT)
  
 Dave is much superior to Hugo TT to my ears (and this is personal opinion, YMMV)


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> So you're saying that trading my DAVE for a Mojo was an ill-advised move?


 
 Did you really trade in your DAVE for a Mojo?  I suppose if I had to trade in my DAVE, the Mojo would be a good replacement.
  
 I now also own a Mojo and I am enjoying it immensely and so I would never suggest to anyone that buying a Mojo is an ill-advised move but I don't personally find Mojo and DAVE that close in performance, at least not based on how my DAVE is presently set up and unfortunately, there is no way to set up my Mojo in the same way.  While I have a hard time assigning some percentage of just how much better DAVE is than Mojo, to my ears, it is better in enough important and meaningful ways that the price differential was well worthwhile.  Considering I came from a DAC that was 2x the price of DAVE, I guess I view DAVE's value differently than some.


----------



## x RELIC x

romaz said:


> Did you really trade in your DAVE for a Mojo?  I suppose if I had to trade in my DAVE, the Mojo would be a good replacement.
> 
> I now also own a Mojo and I am enjoying it immensely and so I would never suggest to anyone that buying a Mojo is an ill-advised move but I don't personally find Mojo and DAVE that close in performance, at least not based on how my DAVE is presently set up and unfortunately, there is no way to set up my Mojo in the same way.  While I have a hard time assigning some percentage of just how much better DAVE is than Mojo, to my ears, it is better in enough important and meaningful ways that the price differential was well worthwhile.  Considering I came from a DAC that was 2x the price of DAVE, I guess I view DAVE's value differently than some.




I'm pretty sure it was sarcasm. 

What I love about the Mojo is it plays withinin the house as the DAVE, especially _compared to_ many of the alternative portable devices out there. The same DNA if you will. For the price the objective performance is out of this world with the Mojo. For the sound the musicality is definitely worth the price of admission.


----------



## iDesign

x relic x said:


> I'm pretty sure it was sarcasm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I agree. The Mojo, if optimized properly, in a desktop setup can sound very good. For critical listening I use the DAVE with the HD 800 S headphones but I have the most musical enjoyment using the Mojo with HD 650 headphones. In fact, most of my listening is done with the Mojo and often leads me to wonder if I really need more. My journey with headphones that has now crossed into the tens of thousands of dollars probably could have ended with the Mojo and HD 600-- anything more is excess. As I've said before, a Mojo TT (e.g. Mojo in a larger enclosure, dedicated power supply, galvanic isolation at $2000) seems like an obvious next step for Chord.


----------



## ubs28

The Mojo in comparison to my Retina Macbook Pro sounds only less digital and is also tuned differently. The soundstage isn't even bigger.

I don't see how people can compare the Mojo to the Dave.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> DAVE's noise floor is identical to Mojo (-180dB) and both have no measurable noise floor modulation according to Rob and so this is not how DAVE is better than Mojo.  In this regard, both of these DACs are better than any non-Chord DAC currently in production.
> 
> DAVE has a better power supply with lower impedance than Mojo.  This results in better dynamic contrasts, bass, definition and all the other things that go along with a better power supply.
> 
> ...




I knewed you would awake like a burglar alarm , when i wrote that misleading info, but it is what i hear, and i hear slight more noise around every note, call it distortion or whatever, but my ears recognize it as noise, less clarity and not the pitch black background that DAVE possess. 

We all got diffrent systems, i got two W4s Remedyś driven on battery in a chain with AQ Diamon optical cables connected to my mojo driven on battery, so i have a complete isolated setup, with almost zero jitter and RF noise, so i feel i max out the Mojo, and i find it closer to Dave than the rest of you guys maybe.


----------



## x RELIC x

ubs28 said:


> The Mojo in comparison to my Retina Macbook Pro sounds only less digital and is also tuned differently. The soundstage isn't even bigger.
> 
> I don't see how people can compare the Mojo to the Dave.




Not really comparing the two, just saying there are _similar_ qualities. I'm actually surprised you find it only slightly different than your MBP.


----------



## ubs28

x relic x said:


> Not really comparing the two, just saying there are _similar_ qualities. I'm actually surprised you find it only slightly different than your MBP.




There is a signficant difference, mainly that the Chord Mojo sounds more analog and transparant. But in the soundstage department they are quite similar according to my ears.


----------



## x RELIC x

ubs28 said:


> There is a signficant difference, mainly that the Chord Mojo sounds more analog and transparant. But in the soundstage department they are quite similar according to my ears.




Ah, specifically regarding soundstage. Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## analogmusic

I just can't hear from huge soundstage of Dave from Mojo or Hugo
  
 And also not the Dave's refinement or musicality..... Maybe some IEM's aren't capable of depth, but on Dynaudio speakers it is very apparent.


----------



## analogmusic

questions for Rob Watts :

 What is the purpose of the phase switch on the Dave? What does it do?
  
 How can one ensure a laptop is sending bit-perfect data to Dave? Does the software you use personally, Jriver, guarantee this?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Currawong

Guys, please don't entertain nonsense. Thanks. 
  
 (To clarify: The original comment was about measurements, and the reply was having a go at the person, not the comment.)


----------



## ExtremeGamerBR

analogmusic said:


> questions for Rob Watts :
> 
> What is the purpose of the phase switch on the Dave? What does it do?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Foobar2000, Jriver and others can send a bit perfect data to any DAC when used with WASAPI or ASIO for playback.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Mine is the analogue recording digitally remastered by Ben Turner


----------



## EVOLVIST

romaz said:


> Did you really trade in your DAVE for a Mojo?


 
 Hell to the no! Haha!
  
 I don't like the Mojo from my mRendu (powered by the LPS-1) at all. The Mojo to me sounds etched and claustrophobic, with a lot of smearing between instruments. For all I know the Mojo might be great. It's just not my cup of tea, in comparison to the DAVE.


----------



## Light - Man

currawong said:


> Guys, please don't entertain *nonsense*. Thanks.


 
  
 We don't understand what you mean by nonsense.
  
 Blanket statements are being made here all the time without substantiation.
  
 Measurements are only part of the picture.
  
 Surely we should encourage friendly informed debate.
  
 Welcome all to the *Chord hype thread *- I am off - nothing worth staying for here.


----------



## supabayes

Pardon if it is a silly question. Has anyone used the DAVE with a *MC*-*3*+ Smart Clock *USB*? Did you find any improvement in SQ?


----------



## analogmusic

evolvist said:


> Hell to the no! Haha!
> 
> I don't like the Mojo from my mRendu (powered by the LPS-1) at all. The Mojo to me sounds etched and claustrophobic, with a lot of smearing between instruments. For all I know the Mojo might be great. It's just not my cup of tea, in comparison to the DAVE.


 

 I am a bit confused, you had 2 Dave's and sold one, but find Mojo etched and congested.
  
 I don't disagree with you, why not just take Dave between office and home?


----------



## EVOLVIST

analogmusic said:


> I am a bit confused, you had 2 Dave's and sold one, but find Mojo etched and congested.
> 
> I don't disagree with you, why not just take Dave between office and home?




Well, I don't own the Mojo, and I just figured that I shouldn't be listening to music at work, anyway. I like silence more when I'm working. 

If I was going to have any little DAC at work, it would be the iDSD micro. That little DAC is an extraordinary bang for your buck.

So, yeah, the real ill-advised move was thinking that I want music at the office.


----------



## Jawed

idesign said:


> For critical listening I use the DAVE with the HD 800 S headphones but I have the most musical enjoyment using the Mojo with HD 650 headphones. In fact, most of my listening is done with the Mojo and often leads me to wonder if I really need more.



I don't understand what critical listening is, as it sounds like you don't do it for pleasure.


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> I knewed you would awake like a burglar alarm , when i wrote that misleading info, but it is what i hear, and i hear slight more noise around every note, call it distortion or whatever, but my ears recognize it as noise, less clarity and not the pitch black background that DAVE possess.
> 
> We all got diffrent systems, i got two W4s Remedyś driven on battery in a chain with AQ Diamon optical cables connected to my mojo driven on battery, so i have a complete isolated setup, with almost zero jitter and RF noise, so i feel i max out the Mojo, and i find it closer to Dave than the rest of you guys maybe.


 
 Hi Fredrik, I hope you are well.  I am still dealing with personal family matters and so I check in when I can (which hasn't been often lately).  I just happen to catch your post while waiting at the airport yesterday.  I understand what you are saying.  I traveled with my Mojo over the weekend and I'm really enjoying it.  I think that's all that matters.


----------



## Beolab

N





romaz said:


> Hi Fredrik, I hope you are well.  I am still dealing with personal family matters and so I check in when I can (which hasn't been often lately).  I just happen to catch your post while waiting at the airport yesterday.  I understand what you are saying.  I traveled with my Mojo over the weekend and I'm really enjoying it.  I think that's all that matters.




No worries i understand you too  
It is many factors why the Mojo got a slight less revealing, clear , black , dynamic , calm , low end sound than the DAVE, but on some tracks it can sound real nice because it is not so "analytical" or precise as DAVE. 

I know you are having a tuff time , and all i can do is to send my deepest wishes that she will win over the cancer ray_tone1:


----------



## Jawed

evolvist said:


> The Mojo to me sounds etched and claustrophobic, with a lot of smearing between instruments.



There were times when I found TT claustrophobic, too, during my comparison. It's a strange sensation. It was the only thing that actually wound me up. It seems the contrast from listening with DAVE is the only reason that feeling happened. I haven't suffered that feeling of claustrophobia at home since the dem. 

On the other hand, I can imagine adjusting to the extreme openness of DAVE, which would make the difference when listening to something else much more obvious. A new norm.


----------



## ExtremeGamerBR

jawed said:


> There were times when I found TT claustrophobic, too, during my comparison. It's a strange sensation. It was the only thing that actually wound me up. It seems the contrast from listening with DAVE is the only reason that feeling happened. I haven't suffered that feeling of claustrophobia at home since the dem.
> 
> On the other hand, I can imagine adjusting to the extreme openness of DAVE, which would make the difference when listening to something else much more obvious. A new norm.


 
 So how you feel when you listen to a simple smartphone? The apocalypse? Night and day difference?
 ​
 ​You guys can't be talking serious
 ​


----------



## Jawed

My mobile system (phone + IEMs) doesn't sound close to my home system. But I enjoy the music. Sometimes at work when I'm listening to music I stop, just to listen. It never annoys me.


----------



## EVOLVIST

extremegamerbr said:


> So how you feel when you listen to a simple smartphone? The apocalypse? Night and day difference?
> ​
> ​You guys can't be talking serious
> ​


 
  
 Heh. I think it's a matter of getting used to one standard and not wanting to go back to the old and/or unfamiliar because your hearing is different now.
  
 Right, imagine I set your up in a sprawling mansion on the south coast of France, or the location of your choice, with a private jet, beautiful ladies serving you 24/7, your own private physician, maybe a guru with a sitar on your front lawn, alpacas and flamingos frolicking in your backyard, a hyperbaric chamber, and a guesthouse full of game developers and coders, with the only things on their minds is to realize your personalized first-person fantasies, would you want to go back to where you started?
  
 Maybe you would. Not me. Is that snobbish or just human nature? Perhaps the DAVE isn't all that. But then again, mayhap it is.


----------



## ExtremeGamerBR

​I do not want to sound rude, and I apologize if my previous post seemed like this. I do not mean to say you're talking ********. I just wanted a more objective perspective to be used in these comparisons. And many people can buy things and spend fortunes (which they do not have) unnecessarily. I do not think it should be the only perspective, or the only valid perspective, but I think it is essential because it presents interesting counterpoints.

 It is very likely that when using a luxury product as is the DAVE, you believe that it has a better sound. It is natural, I would say, this perspective.

 But have you ever tried to blind-test those comparisons? Or have you tried to match the volume of these comparisons? I wonder if your opinions would be different, or if those differences would really be as perceptive as they seem.

 The truth is, if you are correct, a blind test would have the same result you have today. If you are wrong, a new perspective on our partiality would be realized, and I believe that this is a good thing. I at least love to see how often we fool ourselves and knowing something closer to reality is always interesting.

 Anyway, each one sees this matter in a way. I just wanted to show my perspective because that attitude opened my eyes again and again.


----------



## ubs28

Dude, people even hear the difference between the iPhone 6S plus and the iPhone 5S.

Else studio's would be using Creative Soundblaster soundcards instead of using converters in the $10k range.


----------



## Jawed

extremegamerbr said:


> ​I do not want to sound rude, and I apologize if my previous post seemed like this.



As punishment, you aren't allowed to post here again until you've read the entire thread. There will be a test. 

On a more serious note, you'll find there's plenty of introspection in this thread. This is a great example:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/4335#post_12815991

I mean, it's a truly spectacular example.


----------



## Shini44

ubs28 said:


> Dude, people even hear the difference between the iPhone 6S plus and the iPhone 5S.
> 
> Else studio's would be using Creative Soundblaster soundcards instead of using converters in the $10k range.


 
 This thread went from DAVE Chord to DAVE Chappelle xD 

 hey my fist DAP ever (Sandisk Clip) got more Treble than my current DAC, i will sell my Hugo TT!!


----------



## XVampireX

extremegamerbr said:


> ​I do not want to sound rude, and I apologize if my previous post seemed like this. I do not mean to say you're talking ********. I just wanted a more objective perspective to be used in these comparisons. And many people can buy things and spend fortunes (which they do not have) unnecessarily. I do not think it should be the only perspective, or the only valid perspective, but I think it is essential because it presents interesting counterpoints.
> 
> It is very likely that when using a luxury product as is the DAVE, you believe that it has a better sound. It is natural, I would say, this perspective.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If Rob Watts really comes from Aircraft Engineering, I think he's sort of trust worthy in terms of engineering.


----------



## EVOLVIST

xvampirex said:


> If Rob Watts really comes from Aircraft Engineering, I think he's sort of trust worthy in terms of engineering.


 
  
 It's John Franks who comes from aircraft engineering. Watts' background is in silicon chip design (among other things?)


----------



## XVampireX

evolvist said:


> It's John Franks who comes from aircraft engineering. Watts' background is in silicon chip design (among other things?)


 
 Good enough 
  
 I'm gonna get over to Romania one of these days, I'll meet up with dan.gheorghe and we'll check DAVE together, from all the reviews online it apparently is best DAC money can buy today, but I'd like to hear it for myself, I won't be buying it immediately even if I'll really want to because I'll have to save up some more, but it will be interesting nonetheless listening to the DAVE and what everyone is talking about.Gotta be fun.


----------



## ExtremeGamerBR

ubs28 said:


> Dude, people even hear the difference between the iPhone 6S plus and the iPhone 5S.
> 
> Else studio's would be using Creative Soundblaster soundcards instead of using converters in the $10k range.


 
  
 This absolutely means nothing, a lot people SAY a lot of things.
  


jawed said:


> As punishment, you aren't allowed to post here again until you've read the entire thread. There will be a test.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Great example indeed.
    
 I believe that these types of posts are well valid and show that the person has had a sincere and honest search. If that is enough or not to convince someone of something, it goes from each one.

 The point is that it's not that kind of post that I criticized.

  


xvampirex said:


> If Rob Watts really comes from Aircraft Engineering, I think he's sort of trust worthy in terms of engineering.


 
    
 This also means absolutely nothing.

 The point is not how good he is at what he does, I honestly believe he is VERY GOOD. The point is whether the differences between the products are as big as they are proclaimed here and the methodology used is valid for this type of opinion have some value.


----------



## jlbrach

I have gone back and forth over the past while listening to my LCD-4's with and without my Moon Neo 430 and straight out of the Dave...I have finally come to the conclusion that the LCD-4 sounds better with the amp while my Utopia is better straight from the Dave and does not need an amp at all....the LCD-4's are such a power hungry HP and the amp just gives it added body and depth and harder hitting bass with a wider soundstage....don't get me wrong it sound terrific straight from the Dave but to my ears the difference is quite noticeable....I actually wanted to have found the opposite to be true because it is obviously easier to simply use the Dave...oh well,this should be my biggest problem....I wonder if others out there that own the LCD-4 and Dave hear it the same way?


----------



## EVOLVIST

extremegamerbr said:


> This absolutely means nothing, a lot people SAY a lot of things.




Have you heard the DAVE? 

I think there are a few DACs that I have heard which come really close to the DAVE. For a while there I had several DACs at my house all at once.

Eventually one must land upon something.

And to me it had nothing to do with price, as I'm a cheap person.


----------



## STR-1

I'm always on the lookout for cheap(ish) ways to improve my system even further and was wondering whether these RCA Noise-Stopper caps and XLR input/output equivalents are likely to bring any real-world benefits for my DAVE - http://www.audioquest.com/audio-enhancements/rca-noise-stopper-caps Has anyone tried these, or similar, with the DAVE?


----------



## astrostar59

str-1 said:


> I'm always on the lookout for cheap(ish) ways to improve my system even further and was wondering whether these RCA Noise-Stopper caps and XLR input/output equivalents are likely to bring any real-world benefits for my DAVE - http://www.audioquest.com/audio-enhancements/rca-noise-stopper-caps Has anyone tried these, or similar, with the DAVE?


 
 I would suggest looking at AOIP. I dropped USB (1K+ USB chain) to go RedNet 3 1000 Base T ethernet. It was a big jump. USB is not great for high end audio.


----------



## x RELIC x

str-1 said:


> I'm always on the lookout for cheap(ish) ways to improve my system even further and was wondering whether these RCA Noise-Stopper caps and XLR input/output equivalents are likely to bring any real-world benefits for my DAVE - http://www.audioquest.com/audio-enhancements/rca-noise-stopper-caps Has anyone tried these, or similar, with the DAVE?




Well, since the DAVE can not input an analogue signal they would be useless. Rob mentioned the Audioquest Jitterbug did help _slightly_ with RF noise (no, not jitter) from his laptop when plugged in to the mains, but not when on battery power. He emphasized _slightly_.

There has been mention of other (expensive) magnetic devices and a selection of power cords but nothing like the linked accessories, for obvious reasons already stated.


----------



## STR-1

x relic x said:


> Well, since the DAVE can not input an analogue signal they would be useless. Rob mentioned the Audioquest Jitterbug did help _slightly_ with RF noise (no, not jitter) from his laptop when plugged in to the mains, but not when on battery power. He emphasized _slightly_.
> 
> There has been mention of other (expensive) magnetic devices and a selection of power cords but nothing like the linked accessories, for obvious reasons already stated.



Thanks. Yes, silly of me to ask about the inputs. But what about the XLR outputs? The AQ blurb with the XLR output caps merely repeats the case for using these caps with inputs. I don't have much technical knowledge so don't know how daft it is to wonder whether any externally exposed socket (input or output, used or not) is a route into internal circuitry that RF/EMI can take advantage of to the detriment of sound quality.

I do have one jitterbug, which brings a very noticable improvement when used with my iMac (no battery option of course with that). 

I was thinking of getting a laptop once the MBPs were updated but with Apple's price hikes for the UK, that has become a less attractive option. Also, has the DAVE-supporting community taken a view yet on what removing the usb sockets from the new MBPs will mean for maintaining sound quality in connecting to DAVE? Thanks to anyone who can answer that one.


----------



## STR-1

astrostar59 said:


> I would suggest looking at AOIP. I dropped USB (1K+ USB chain) to go RedNet 3 1000 Base T ethernet. It was a big jump. USB is not great for high end audio.



Thanks. I don't know anything about that. How does that connect to the DAVE? 

I currently use the DAVE in three ways: i) NAS/router > switch > mRendu (with smps, but LPS-1 coming soon) > DAVE > headphone; ii) AK380 (optical) > DAVE > headphone; and iii) iMac > AQ Jitterbug > DAVE > headphone. I would like to improve as far as I readonably can the usb and ethernet connection with the first system, which is the way I use the DAVE most of the time. But I am also wondering now if optical/usb is something worth exploring.


----------



## hieukm

astrostar59 said:


> I would suggest looking at AOIP. I dropped USB (1K+ USB chain) to go RedNet 3 1000 Base T ethernet. It was a big jump. USB is not great for high end audio.


 
  
 So you found significant improvement going from USB to AOIP with your DAVE?
  
 Interesting.


----------



## Light - Man

str-1 said:


> Thanks. I don't know anything about that. How does that connect to the DAVE?
> 
> I currently use the DAVE in three ways: i) NAS/router > switch > mRendu (with smps, but LPS-1 coming soon) > DAVE > headphone; ii) AK380 (optical) > DAVE > headphone; and iii) iMac > AQ Jitterbug > DAVE > headphone. I would like to improve as far as I readonably can the usb and ethernet connection with the first system, which is the way I use the DAVE most of the time. But I am also wondering now if optical/usb is something worth exploring.


 
  
 Have you looked at mains power AC filters yet, I was skeptical but now I am a convert?
  
 They don't have to be expensive even though that would not likely be a problem for most of the guys here.


----------



## astrostar59

str-1 said:


> Thanks. I don't know anything about that. How does that connect to the DAVE?
> 
> I currently use the DAVE in three ways: i) NAS/router > switch > mRendu (with smps, but LPS-1 coming soon) > DAVE > headphone; ii) AK380 (optical) > DAVE > headphone; and iii) iMac > AQ Jitterbug > DAVE > headphone. I would like to improve as far as I readonably can the usb and ethernet connection with the first system, which is the way I use the DAVE most of the time. But I am also wondering now if optical/usb is something worth exploring.


 
 No i have a different DAC sorry. I just wanted to point some in the direction as I found AOIP kills USB.
  
 I am unsure on your main system chain. Your NAS is external disk drives? You need a PC or Mac or network player to use those files unlike say a Perfect Wave DAC which handles external disk storage? The Dave doesn't do that?
  

  
 My system is Mac Mini - Ethernet 1000T out - RedNet 3 - SPDIF out - Audio Note DAC 5 Special.
  
 The effect of getting rid of USB is dramatic. It isn't just Ethernet DHCP, it is Audinate protocol designed just for high end audio transfers (from the pro studio sector).
  
 I haven't tried optical. I have read varying reports on it from ok to bad, not so many that are parsing it's performance.
  
 Basically with USB the treble was never accurate or musical to me, too edgy and sharp, digital. With AOIP it is fluid, smooth as silk and still as transparent. Bass is also faster, deeper and more textured, less 'one note' on dance material for example. Female vocals are magical, soundstage is wider and more 3D. It just seems to remove any noise or haze and peals back to the master tape.


----------



## pkcpga

astrostar59 said:


> No i have a different DAC sorry. I just wanted to point some in the direction as I found AOIP kills USB.
> 
> I am unsure on your main system chain. Your NAS is external disk drives? You need a PC or Mac or network player to use those files unlike say a Perfect Wave DAC which handles external disk storage? The Dave doesn't do that?
> 
> ...




That's not what I've found on the Dave, I have a few DACs and have tried a bunch. Cheaper or non galvanized or isolated USB connection may have issues but on better DACs like the DAVE that are there is no issues with USB. Such as I've demod the schiit Yggdrasil and it sounded terrible through USB. Optical sounds a little better on my naim dac over USB but not drastically different. So bypassing USB is not a solution for me, since USB does offer advantages in timing, instead buying a dac that is galvized is a better solution. I owned a more expensive Lynn dac and the Dave still blows that away and replaced the Lynn dac.


----------



## STR-1

astrostar59 said:


> I am unsure on your main system chain. Your NAS is external disk drives? You need a PC or Mac or network player to use those files unlike say a Perfect Wave DAC which handles external disk storage? The Dave doesn't do that?



Thanks. The microRendu serves as the computer, with music selection handled by the Lumin control app on my iPad.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Yeah, so if you have an Ethernet jack coming out of your wall into the mRendu, could you bypass the mRendu and some out of the wall into one of these little things?

Or is that a self defeating venture?

http://m.gearbest.com/tablet-pcs/pp_15035.html?currency=USD&lkid=10134019&gclid=CjwKEAiAr4vBBRCG36e415-_l1wSJAAatjJZ0X0OGP0SC18rrOJee849DExnyF7L3NdBggPBqG8l1hoCsc7w_wcB

Wait, you're not even going to get an audio signal will you?


----------



## GryphonGuy

astrostar59 said:


> Basically with USB the treble was never accurate or musical to me, too edgy and sharp, digital.


 
  
 I am just passing the first month with my DAVE. At no time have had your experience using USB, AES, SPDIF or optical connections.
  
 To me, DAVE's timbres through USB are so real it sometimes makes the hair on my neck and arms stand on end. The accuracy of a hit of a triangle at the back of the recording studio some distance from the microphone is so unmistakably a triangle and unmistakably a long way from the microphone. My old DAC has never presented that faint triangle sound in all the years I have had it. So I guess the DAVE's lower-than-most noise floor allowed that sound to be resolved and presented.
  
 I am finding that the USB input of DAVE is making me believe the sounds are real and present in my listening space which my old DAC costing 3 times as much as DAVE could not achieve (however nice I used to think the valve distortion was in my old DAC).
  
 Cheers
 GG.


----------



## x RELIC x

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






astrostar59 said:


> No i have a different DAC sorry. I just wanted to point some in the direction as I found AOIP kills USB.
> 
> I am unsure on your main system chain. Your NAS is external disk drives? You need a PC or Mac or network player to use those files unlike say a Perfect Wave DAC which handles external disk storage? The Dave doesn't do that?
> 
> ...






One device's USB input =/= another's, that is well known. One simply can not generalize USB input for all devices.

Listening to my DAVE from my MBP using Audirvana+ and I've never found anything but smooth musical reproduction. No where near as you describe. Your upstream solution likely works well in your setup but that does not mean it would be beneficial for all.


----------



## Arpiben

evolvist said:


> Yeah, so if you have an Ethernet jack coming out of your wall into the mRendu, could you bypass the mRendu and some out of the wall into one of these little things?
> 
> Or is that a self defeating venture?
> 
> ...



Hi,
Regarding your little interface adapter I will avoid using it for audio purposes.
That said it may be very useful when need of USB cable lengths above 5m (USB limitation).
Cheers.


----------



## Rob Watts

gryphonguy said:


> astrostar59 said:
> 
> 
> > Basically with USB the treble was never accurate or musical to me, too edgy and sharp, digital.
> ...


 
  
 People often make the comment that a black background is due to lower noise floor and actually that's not the case. Dave has -128 dB DR; but if this was say 20 dB worse, then listening on loudspeakers, nobody would in practice hear the difference.
  
 The improvement in depth one hears with Dave is entirely down to how accurate small signals amplitudes are preserved; and Dave, with its -350 dB digital domain performance, plus the immense care I go to ensure that small signals are accurately reproduced has unique abilities in this area.
  
 On the timbre variation front, this ability is actually quite complex; but in short its down to Dave's complete lack of noise floor modulation, plus the unique way it accurately reconstructs the timing of transients. Timbre perception comes from transients, and when transient timing is distorted, one can't perceive timbre correctly. 
  
 My experience with USB sounding hard or edgy is limited to when the source is not sending bit perfect data. Something no DAC can fix.
  
 Rob


----------



## gnomen

Bit perfect data?
  
 Rob, my Weiss DAC-202 comes with a set of files to test that bit perfect data is being received at the DAC.  The files are played through the music system (iTunes/Pure Music on an iMac in my case).  If the signal is received bit perfect, a message is displayed on the DAC's control panel to confirm.  Peace of mind.
  
 Now I also have a Chord Hugo TT (and contemplating a DAVE) and the Weiss is used in a separate system.  The TT does not have a bit-perfect test AFAIK.  Would it be difficult to add?


----------



## astrostar59

rob watts said:


> People often make the comment that a black background is due to lower noise floor and actually that's not the case. Dave has -128 dB DR; but if this was say 20 dB worse, then listening on loudspeakers, nobody would in practice hear the difference.
> 
> The improvement in depth one hears with Dave is entirely down to how accurate small signals amplitudes are preserved; and Dave, with its -350 dB digital domain performance, plus the immense care I go to ensure that small signals are accurately reproduced has unique abilities in this area.
> 
> ...


 

 Don't agree. I have heard many high end DACs fed by USB and they all sounded better with AOIP. Maybe you should try it before saying it is the DAC causing it? Check out the AOIP thread, pretty much 100% who have dropped USB have confirmed it is better. I am not saying the Dave is not a great DAC, I am saying USB is not the best transfer connection you can have.


----------



## TheAttorney

Quote:


rob watts said:


> My experience with USB sounding hard or edgy is limited to when the source is not sending bit perfect data. Something no DAC can fix.


  
 My Windows laptop USB direct to Dave doesn't sound hard or edgy. But it does sound better with HQ Player than with JRiver MC. This with all DSP off, other than dither set on HQP (simply because romaz recommended it). I'm guessing that dither will lose the bit perfectness? 
  
 But USB direct is significantly improved by adding a microRendu and using HQP in NAA mode.
  
 Amazing really: I add a wifi link -> router -> Ethernet cable -> mR (then back to same USB) directly into the signal path and the SQ improves significantly. Oh, and upgrading the Ethernet cable helped too.  I really don't understand this networking lark  
  
 None of the above is about "hard or edgy". It's more about clarity, focus, transparency and more "you are there" fine detail.


----------



## astrostar59

Possibly taken the wrong way. I was saying 'hard' or 'edgy' to leverage the point. We are talking subtleties of tone and general smoothness of the music. I notice it most on female vocals, such as Cranberries or other vocals that hit a high sustaining note. It is a general digital coarseness in USB. I have bought over the years various USB fixers: Offramp 5, M2 Tech EVO full stack, various noise fixers. It didn't quite do it for me.
  
 Dropping in AOIP and immediately reaped rewards. It as noticeable on the first chorus on my test tracks. Liquid, smoothness, detail but not digital is my best description of it. I leave the technicalities of why it works to others. But I would say give it a try. I sold my 1.3K USB chain to fund the RedNet 3 at 999 USD. Fantastic move, and I would love others to hear what it can do.
  
 TBH, yes USB can be damb good, but I can't go back now. It is something I hear and I want it now, USB would be like a copy of a copy if you get my drift, rather than a master tape. Sorry, hard to explain how it sounds.
  
 There is 2 huge threads, one on here, and one over at computer audiophile. Pretty much everyone who has done it says it is better.


----------



## Currawong

astrostar59 said:


> rob watts said:
> 
> 
> > People often make the comment that a black background is due to lower noise floor and actually that's not the case. Dave has -128 dB DR; but if this was say 20 dB worse, then listening on loudspeakers, nobody would in practice hear the difference.
> ...


 
  
 It'd be interesting to test. Going by impressions, I'm sure the Rednet has a fantastic quality AES output, very likely far above most other gear that we see around here, as a result of the design and manufacture being top-notch. I'm sure that is the reason that the sound quality is excellent. I don't think it has anything to do with the protocol at all.
  
 That being said, I never felt USB was capable of being good, until recently. It has taken time for engineers to mature it. There is a lovely example I wish I could give (not just the DAVE) but I have to wait until the company announces it officially. 
  
 It would be interesting to battle off a Rednet with the stock USB input on the DAVE though.  I hope someone manages to arrange it sometime.


----------



## astrostar59

currawong said:


> It'd be interesting to test. Going by impressions, I'm sure the Rednet has a fantastic quality AES output, very likely far above most other gear that we see around here, as a result of the design and manufacture being top-notch. I'm sure that is the reason that the sound quality is excellent. I don't think it has anything to do with the protocol at all.
> 
> That being said, I never felt USB was capable of being good, until recently. It has taken time for engineers to mature it. There is a lovely example I wish I could give (not just the DAVE) but I have to wait until the company announces it officially.
> 
> It would be interesting to battle off a Rednet with the stock USB input on the DAVE though.  I hope someone manages to arrange it sometime.


 

 Dunno. My DAC gets fed via SPDIF the same as on USB v AOIP. The only thing that changes is the connection method. Both have clocking in the SPDIF convertor or the Rednet.
  
 Like I said, I had an Offramp 5 and the M2Tech EVO full stack. I also tried my AMR DP-777 with USB direct, USB via M2Tech and now AOIP. The result is the same, Ethernet is miles cleaner an just more fluid, more real. In a 15 minute demo in a shop yopu may not notice it. But at home, play it loud and wow, massive difference. Any vestiges of digital is gone. I would say it will boost any DAC that is using USB connection. 
  
 Yes, more folk who have tried it please. I am excited about this subject. I have tweaked and changed gear over the last 20 years, but AOIP is possibly the most exciting change so far IMO.


----------



## x RELIC x

A side note: 

I wish users would specify which S/PDIF connection they are using. The Sony/Phillips Digital Interface Format includes both optical TOSlink and coaxial with RCA so it would be helpful for others to be clear on which one is used as there are audible differences noted between the two. 

P.S. I know the above user is referring to coaxial RCA, but it's a bad habit I'm reading a lot more of on Head Fi lately to just mention S/PDIF.


----------



## Arpiben

Hi astrostar59

I agree with you that as a media transport Ethernet is better fitted than USB.
I also would like to see RJ45 or even better, Short Length Fiber ( 850nm not Toslink)Inputs & Outputs in DACs.
Unfortunately we need to wait.
IMHO, Audio Over IP (AOIP) & AES67 are still not mature enough.
It works with limited rates in home or small LAN networks due to latency issues.
Until then we may dream that DACs such DAVE will one day include the player & enough storage.
Cheers


----------



## Beolab

I2s is the future connection interface for HiFi is my qualified estimation. 

Maybe we see this feature in DAVE 2, when we have discovered that USB is outdated.


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> I2s is the future connection interface for HiFi is my qualified estimation.
> 
> Maybe we see this feature in DAVE 2, when we have discovered that USB is outdated.


 
 No and no.
  
 And Dave 2 hasn't even been dreamed about - unless major essential parts become unavailable Dave 2 is many years away.
  
 Rob


----------



## jelt2359

currawong said:


> It'd be interesting to test. Going by impressions, I'm sure the Rednet has a fantastic quality AES output, very likely far above most other gear that we see around here, as a result of the design and manufacture being top-notch. I'm sure that is the reason that the sound quality is excellent. I don't think it has anything to do with the protocol at all.
> 
> That being said, I never felt USB was capable of being good, until recently. It has taken time for engineers to mature it. There is a lovely example I wish I could give (not just the DAVE) but I have to wait until the company announces it officially.
> 
> It would be interesting to battle off a Rednet with the stock USB input on the DAVE though.  I hope someone manages to arrange it sometime.




When I compared the rednet via AES to my microrendu via USB to the Dave it was very close. The microRendu was a bit bigger in stage and more laid back. This was from the ifi ipower though so probably not at its best. The microRendu also responded very obviously to USB cable changes and in the end I used my curious USB for a good but cost effective (enough) solution. 

In comparison my rednet was more vivid and energetic.


----------



## Christer

rob watts said:


> No and no.
> 
> And Dave 2 hasn't even been dreamed about - unless major essential parts become unavailable Dave 2 is many years away.
> 
> Rob


 

 I am still  using a macbookpro which is a few years old and it has both usb 2 and firewire 800 ports. But when I will buy a newer  more portable laptop than  my 17" 3kg heavy mbp soon, it will most probably have neither firewire 800 which I use for my portable hardrives, nor usb2,but USB-C ports that will need an adapter to work with HUGO or DAVE.
 I understand DAVE will be around for long but what about future products?
 Why is the  consumer computer DAC industry sticking with usb2 when few current or future laptops  will have those ports?
 Even firewire 400 and 800 which  were much faster, and according to  recording engineers I met, also clearly better than usb 2  years ago, and used by some in the recording  industry, and for example the Weiss dacs, is history since  they started  using ethernet and such.
  
 No one  as far as I know,ever used usb 2 in connection with pro ADCs/DACs?
 Current ADCs use ethernet connection at sessions if I remember correctly.
 And now that even most consumer laptops don´t feature usb 2 any longer why  do so many dacs still favour it?
 Won´t the need to use adapters increase RF and other usb 2 related problems?
 Just wondering.


----------



## Crgreen

Prior to the Hugo, I was unimpressed with USB connections. CD usually sounded better defined. With the Hugo, and subsequently the DAVE, that changed. Chord have clearly got USB right, and it's now my preferred input. I tried both balanced and optical connections to the DAVE from my Meridain 500 CD transport, and found no discenable difference - a first, so I've stuck with optical to avoid any possible RF transmission to the DAVE. I've also found a number of ways to improve the quality of the USB feed from my hi-fi laptop, some of which might not amount to anything more than RF rejection.


----------



## Christer

crgreen said:


> Prior to the Hugo, I was unimpressed with USB connections. CD usually sounded better defined. With the Hugo, and subsequently the DAVE, that changed. Chord have clearly got USB right, and it's now my preferred input. I tried both balanced and optical connections to the DAVE from my Meridain 500 CD transport, and found no discenable difference - a first, so I've stuck with optical to avoid any possible RF transmission to the DAVE. I've also found a number of ways to improve the quality of the USB feed from my hi-fi laptop, some of which might not amount to anything more than RF rejection.


 

 In my case my Benchmark DAC 2 which is galvanically isolated is a much more reliable source than my HUGO via USB in my home system.
 And both my former Weiss DAC which worked via Firewire and my Hegel HD 25 had fewer RF problems than Hugo.
 Nowadays I use HUGO basically only when I am out travelling like now.
 I hear USB as problematic via HUGO too often to trust it at home.


----------



## rkt31

hugo usb input is micro, which may cause some difficulties in using thicker and longer usb cables, other than that i found no problems in using usb input of hugo. few days back i used hugo with jitterbugs and ferrite cores on the cable and i would say it easily bettered the coaxial connection. usb sounded more fluid and open. with usb input some tweaks help a lot like using jitterbug and ferrite cores.these tweaks help to improve the usb input of any dac not just hugo. with galvanically isolated usb inputs the improvement may be less but with non galvanically isolated usb inputs, the improvement is more, to the extent that it may not matter if the input is galvanically isolated or not.


----------



## Light - Man

crgreen said:


> Prior to the Hugo, I was unimpressed with USB connections. CD usually sounded better defined. With the Hugo, and subsequently the DAVE, that changed. Chord have clearly got USB right, and it's now my preferred input. I tried both balanced and optical connections to the DAVE from my Meridain 500 CD transport, and found no discenable difference - a first, so I've stuck with optical to avoid any possible RF transmission to the DAVE. *I've* also *found a number of ways to improve the quality* *of the USB* feed from my hi-fi laptop, some of which might not amount to anything more than RF rejection.


 
  
 Do tell us more?


----------



## Crgreen

Never had a problem with the Hugo over USB, with or without a Regen in the chain.

Currently, I use a PS Audio LANRover with I metre of Ethernet cable between the send and receive units and a MCRU linear power supply to power the receive unit. Half metre USB cables at either end of the chain (Tandy Chronos - cheap but good) and jitterbugs at the laptop USB port and LANRover USB output. Black Rhodium mains cables to the power supply and DAVE. To my ears, a definite improvement in what I'm getting from the DAVE.


----------



## Christer

crgreen said:


> Never had a problem with the Hugo over USB, with or without a Regen in the chain.
> 
> Currently, I use a PS Audio LANRover with I metre of Ethernet cable between the send and receive units and a MCRU linear power supply to power the receive unit. Half metre USB cables at either end of the chain (Tandy Chronos - cheap but good) and jitterbugs at the laptop USB port and LANRover USB output. Black Rhodium mains cables to the power supply and DAVE. To my ears, a definite improvement in what I'm getting from the DAVE.


 

 Hmm, you are using both LANROVER and jitterbugs at both ends with a DAVE?
 I have been thinking of  possibly getting a LANROVER for my HUGO. But a discussion quoted here earlier at What´s best Forum, stated jitterbug add´s noise which is something I don´t want more of.
 they seemed to consider jitterbug mainly as some kind of  placebo for audiophiles.
 What kind of music are you  playing to hear the "definite improvement" with you DAVE?
 I have only heard DAVE via headphones and no add ons whatsoever.
 But on well recorded acoustic material it was  stunningly good that way without any of the problems I have had with my HUGO.


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> No and no.
> 
> And Dave 2 hasn't even been dreamed about - unless major essential parts become unavailable Dave 2 is many years away.
> 
> Rob




We wait and see how everything will turn out, no one knows for certen what the future has to offer.


----------



## astrostar59

christer said:


> Hmm, you are using both LANROVER and jitterbugs at both ends with a DAVE?
> I have been thinking of  possibly getting a LANROVER for my HUGO. But a discussion quoted here earlier at What´s best Forum, stated jitterbug add´s noise which is something I don´t want more of.
> they seemed to consider jitterbug mainly as some kind of  placebo for audiophiles.
> What kind of music are you  playing to hear the "definite improvement" with you DAVE?
> ...


 

 I haven't tried the Landrover. But have tried many other jitter bug and noise fixers for USB. Non really made me happy about it. My point is, all these products and the fact they partly work says in my book, that there is an issue with USB audio connection. AOIP is something new, and to me removes all the audible issues I heard in USB. It is actually no more expensive if you include fancy USB cables and fixer boxes. 
  
 I won't be going back to USB anytime soon.


----------



## ecwl

christer said:


> I have been thinking of  possibly getting a LANROVER for my HUGO. But a discussion quoted here earlier at What´s best Forum, stated jitterbug add´s noise which is something I don´t want more of.
> they seemed to consider jitterbug mainly as some kind of  placebo for audiophiles.
> ...
> But on well recorded acoustic material it was  stunningly good that way without any of the problems I have had with my HUGO.




You really should give Jitterbug a try with your Hugo first, it's cheap and effective. I use it with my noisy laptop and Chord Mojo. Works great. Yes, it's totally useless with clean USB sources. And it's not going to fix non-Chord DACs with poor jitter immunity.
I wouldn't listen to What's Best Forum, considering they've basically been trashing Chord DAVE mostly.


----------



## miketlse

beolab said:


> We wait and see how everything will turn out, no one knows for certen what the future has to offer.


 
 It is true that no one knows for certain what the future has to offer.
  
 However any engineering/technology firm like chord, will have a future product strategy plan, which has been created based on expected markets for products, anticipated technology changes (including obsolescence and technology prices), the available resources (staff, manhours, cashflow, supply chain, etc). This strategy would normally be reviewed/updated quarterly. A long term strategy is essential, to help plan for employing the staff with the required skills, or ensuring the appropriate training and development capability is in place. 
  
 The chord product line covers multiple product types, so at any one time Rob and the rest of the chord team will be working on several product projects (just think of davina, blu2, power amp upgrades, mojo add-on module, plus all the projects that the public never hear about). I suspect that Rob is being completely honest, when he says that DAVE mk2 is not likely for several years at least.


----------



## ecwl

Feels like this forum in the past few posts has become a USB vs RCA/BNC/AES S/PDIF (through a great source like AOIP) debate.
  
 My simple take is, obviously USB is heavily dependent on the USB receiver implementation of the DAC, as well as the USB source. Whereas RCA/BNC/AES S/PDIF input is heavily dependent on the source implementation. So in many ways people are comparing apples to oranges. That's why I absolutely believe that people who are getting better results from RCA/BNC/AES S/PDIF (especially from great source like Rednet) are correct when listening to their system.
  
 Getting back to Chord and more specifically DAVE vs non-Chord DACs, I think the USB vs S/PDIF debate has many factors that influences outcome. First of all, USB and S/PDIF DAC inputs can be galvanically isolated or not. That would influence how much RF noise/leakage current (upTone mRendu/LPS is big into this now) that gets injected the DAC and influence sound effect. DAVE, Hugo TT and 2Qute are galvanically isolated whereas Hugo/Mojo are not. Filters such as Audioquest Jitterbug can dramatically lower the RF noise and leakage current and significantly improve the sound. Moreover, leakage current occurs if the USB source is connected to mains (as opposed to battery powered), even if the DAC is galvanically isolated, you're still going to get some leakage current. And the other interesting thing to me is that some DACs have galvanically isolated S/PDIF input and others don't. That also matters. None of the Chord DACs have galvanically isolated S/PDIF input so if the S/PDIF source is poor, it really messes up the Chord DAC.
  
 The second thing I found is that different DACs clearly have different degrees of jitter immunity. As a result, if the source/DAC USB implementation is poor, but you have an ultra-low jitter S/PDIF source, the DACs with worse jitter immunity are going to sound better with S/PDIF, rather than USB. I know everyone quotes and claims their DACs have great jitter immunity and to a large extent, they all do. But at the high-end audiophile level, to quote Casino Royale the movie, there's jitter immunity and then there's jitter immunity. I truly believe Chord DACs have superior jitter immunity due to DPLL and Pulse Array DAC and the overall design that it doesn't matter as much whether we use USB vs S/PDIF which I definitely cannot say for other DACs. I think that's why people have such different experiences with this.


----------



## Crgreen

As regards the Jitterbug introducing noise, my experience has been otherwise. Then again, there's practically no proposition in audio for which you' won't find both supporters and objectors. Indeed, the Internet generally. Best use your own ears, and given the cost, it's worth the risk.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Sorry O/T guys but I thought some of you, like me, would find this a fascinating insight into the world of the producer/mastering engineer. Albeit 2 years old.
http://productionadvice.co.uk/its-not-the-format/


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

An interesting comparison

As one would expect, given my board name, I play my music from the Chord Red Reference III. I have mentioned in the past that I have found the 44.1 kHz output to be superior when fed to Dave. To my ears it is so pure and natural. It is so relaxed. The 88.2 is undoubtably tighter but to my ears not as natural. Anyway I made that assessment a while ago and stuck to a 44.1 feed from there. I didn't revisit that decision when I changed speakers either, so the last couple of days I thought I would revisit it. 

Having gotten fully acclimatised to 44.1 feed over the last 11 months, the difference was pretty stark when I switched to 88.2 in that the tightness of focus was there but also much superior timbre, resolution, deeper bass with more focused punch. Some of the timbre benefit may be down to the ribbon tweeter and mid I am now using but there was a clear benefit regardless. I was surprised, I suspect that I must have made the originally comparison predominantly via things like choral music where a natural pure presentation was top of the agenda. ABing 44.1 and 88.2 and I quickly realised that my speaker alignment was microscopically out along the front baffle vertical plane. 88.2 is very focussed indeed via the RRT whilst the 44.1 was softer, though purer and simply more relaxed and natural (as I had previously noticed) which some people might prefer. On contemporary music (drums, bass, guitar and even piano) the benefits of 88.2 are clearly desirable but When I played say Sir Neville Mariner's Faurer Requiem where long smooth clean voices and reverberations are a prerequisite then 88.2 just doesnt sound as natural, real or even present as 44.1. After continued ABing, to my ears 44.1 had more natural reflections from the Chapel walls. 88.2 sounded more dry by comparison as if you had two takes laid 'almost' exactly over each other. It sounds not unlike a studio affect to me, much tighter than automated double tracking. Perhaps more like the most mild flanging you could ever produce. It sounds very complimentary to stringed instruments like acoustic guitar and mandolin sounds incredible via 88.2 upsampling. Classy presentation but not as true as 44.1 which has a natural bloom similar to tube. This gives a greater impression of being actually in the presence of the performance. 

My conclusion is to use 44.1 for most classical and 88.2 for contemporary music until the upgrade. The detail and timbre from 88.2 are not false in any way. They are extraordinary.

Why would this interest any of you?
Well if you are waiting for Blu 2 or the eventual Red Ref upgrade then I am betting Red Book will come with timbre, detail and focus like no streamer can produce at any price. I would expect Timbre in particular to be truly exceptional. The difference between 44.1 to 88.2 in this area is already significant. Goodness knows the difference between 44.1 and 705.6 upsampling. I would expect it (red book) to seriously rival most high res streamed music out there. I just hope Rob can match the benefits with that pure, natural, relaxed flow which can be had right now from 44.1.

Edit: there is also more 'kick' in 88.2 kHz mode. Presumably due to more accurate transients.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

its interesting reading Ian Shepherds link again above and my last post too as it highlights that we all have our preferences for how we like to hear our music and what form of presentation has the most effect on us. I grew up hearing musical instruments within a close proximity to the sound. Whether it was at home, band practice in the garage, performance at clubs or practicing again at school in the sound booths. I guess that's why bass dynamics have such an important roll to play in my emotional assessment of performance as presented by hifi. I performed mostly in small venues but still preferred 'recording' to 'performing live' simply because there was more control of the sound and performance when recording. It's probably why, if offered free tickets for my favourite artist playing at Wembley stadium, I wouldn't bother going but if they were booked to play at Ronnie Scott's I would pay up to £1,000 for the privilege. 

When it comes to hifi also there is no right solution to every component imo. Only what's right for our preferences. For instance, many audiophiles like tubes and I get that. Music can be very vibrant through tubes which reflects the shimmer of the glass on the sound in a similar way in which you may also hit a certain volume with your speakers where they begin to react/engage with the room. It has a positive affect on our bodies for some reason. I guess it has a stronger resonance within us. Some audiophiles may say that is not pure sound we are hearing but it is certainly pure music. Who are we to say it is the wrong way to listen to hifi, after all go to any live event and that is exactly what is happening. Equally no two venues sound the same so our favourite performance may be down partly to the venue.

As I said, I like intimate performance because that was my first experience of live performance. If I pick up an acoustic or classical guitar and play, it sounds nothing like a recording because the bass hasn't been rolled off for a start. An engineer hasn't placed a mic at the optimum position to highlight a particular frequency band to enhance the delivery of the particular piece being played or to avoid certain noises on the sound box which are idiosyncratic to the performers technique. When we are choosing speakers again this is a factor. In terms of authenticity I would challenge any speaker manufacturer for instance to produce a better take on the sound of a classical guitar than Sonus Faber. Why? Because the speaker is in many ways like the instrument. It has a wooden sound box. It has a silk dome tweeter and silk sounds very close to nylon strings. Guitar strings shimmer and so do silk dome tweeters and lastly the Sonus Faber has a stringed grill for the sound to emit through and a classical guitar has a sound box with a hole for sound to emit through the strings. Is it any wonder the Sonus Faber sounds like the instrument? My point being here that we are all listening to different combinations of equipment with different synergies, it affects us based upon our experiences and preferences. We make breakthroughs in synergies which are worth sharing but preferences on musical genres will also have a meaningful say on how we wish to listen to our sound. Working on getting the best presentation on that preference is what is fun about being the obsessional audiophile.


----------



## raypin

Mm..advice needed: is it okay to use a power bank (outputs 110 volts, up to 85 watt support) to off-grid the Chord Dave? The specs for Dave is 110 to 240 volts, 20 watts. Just making sure I am doing the right thing here. Tia.


----------



## brightonjel

daveredref-iii said:


> It's probably why, if offered free tickets for my favourite artist playing at Wembley stadium, I wouldn't bother going but if they were booked to play at Ronnie Scott's I would pay up to £1,000 for the privilege.


 
  
 I think that's very well said, and I agree with the other points you made, especially about recorded sound.  Last Friday, a few of us went to see John Mayall - yes, that John Mayall and yes, he is still touring! - at a venue in Santa Cruz, CA.  I haven't been to a live amplified concert like that in a decade or so, and I was shocked how poor the sound quality generally was.  It was a was a small theatre (an old cinema, in fact) and so the drums worked well, and the electric piano wasn't bad.  However, the guitar was too far back in the mix and the harmonica sometimes too far forward, but the bass guitar was the worst.  Little evident definition of the notes, with some long runs being either inaudible or impossible to follow, which was a great shame because, as always, Mayall had collected a couple of excellent musicians to work with.


----------



## ecwl

raypin said:


> Mm..advice needed: is it okay to use a power bank (outputs 110 volts, up to 85 watt support) to off-grid the Chord Dave? The specs for Dave is 110 to 240 volts, 20 watts. Just making sure I am doing the right thing here. Tia.




Since the DAVE only draws 20W, obviously, your solution works. So I think you can do it but sounds like overkill to me. I think you're better off plugging the DAVE into the wall and worrying about your source and whether there is a ground/leakage current between your source and DAVE (assuming you're listening using headphones). But then if you already have a power bank, why not...


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Wow I didn't know he was still touring


----------



## ubs28

Which crossfeed setting do you guys think is best?


----------



## miketlse

ubs28 said:


> Which crossfeed setting do you guys think is best?


 
 Search this thread using the keyword "crossfeed".
 Several discussions appear, related to different types of headphone, music etc, so maybe one of them will be relevant to you.


----------



## ubs28

miketlse said:


> Search this thread using the keyword "crossfeed".
> Several discussions appear, related to different types of headphone, music etc, so maybe one of them will be relevant to you.




Ok thanks.


----------



## lovethatsound

ubs28 said:


> Which crossfeed setting do you guys think is best?


I DON'T use crossfeed,but if i remember right,most people use it on number 3.


----------



## x RELIC x

Some people like crossfeed 3. Some like crossfeed 2. Others like no crossfeed. Rob likes 3. It's entirely a personal preference. I bounce around between off and 3 depending on the recording.


----------



## jlbrach

I have been listening to the crossfeed for the first time recently,especially on the old unnatural stereo recordings from the 60's...earlier today i listened to some early Jefferson Airplane where the separation is unnatural and you hear the guitar all the way on the right and the drums and bass all the way on the left with vocals in the middle.....the crossfeed does make this a more pleasant listen and in general with HP's does enhance the experience....I do not find all that much difference between the 3 settings so I tend to stick to 3 only because the inventor and designer tells me that is what he finds to be best!


----------



## Beolab

@Rob Watts

Rob, i was thinking if a Binaural DSP converter is something you have ever thaught of to implemend in your future design as an fidelity feature like the phase switch on Dave for example? 

Why i question this is because i know Goldmund have implemented this in their DSP headphone THA2 amp with a pretty good result to convert a normal song in to binaural, and if you where doing this i know it would be to a total perfection! 

http://www.goldmund.com/en/products/telos_headphone_amplifier_2

Or do you see drawbacks with this pretty "cool" feature?


----------



## Mython

beolab said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> Rob, i was thinking if a Binaural DSP converter is something you have ever thaught of to implemend in your future design as an fidelity feature like the phase switch on Dave for example?
> 
> ...


 
  
  
_Sigh_... just throw away your cans and use DAVE *properly*, with 2ch loudspeakers, dammit!


----------



## Deftone

jlbrach said:


> I have been listening to the crossfeed for the first time recently,especially on the old unnatural stereo recordings from the 60's...earlier today i listened to some early Jefferson Airplane where* the separation is unnatural and you hear the guitar all the way on the right and the drums and bass all the way on the left with vocals in the middle*.....the crossfeed does make this a more pleasant listen and in general with HP's does enhance the experience....I do not find all that much difference between the 3 settings so I tend to stick to 3 only because the inventor and designer tells me that is what he finds to be best!


 
  
 the beatles stereo mixes are quite bad for this.


----------



## Mython

deftone said:


> jlbrach said:
> 
> 
> > I have been listening to the crossfeed for the first time recently,especially on the old unnatural stereo recordings from the 60's...earlier today i listened to some early Jefferson Airplane where* the separation is unnatural and you hear the guitar all the way on the right and the drums and bass all the way on the left with vocals in the middle*.....the crossfeed does make this a more pleasant listen and in general with HP's does enhance the experience....I do not find all that much difference between the 3 settings so I tend to stick to 3 only because the inventor and designer tells me that is what he finds to be best!
> ...


 
  
 It's common with lots of stereo remixed late 60s and early 70s recordings
  
 For example, Neil Diamond immediately springs to mind


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> Rob, i was thinking if a Binaural DSP converter is something you have ever thaught of to implemend in your future design as an fidelity feature like the phase switch on Dave for example?
> 
> ...


 
 Already done - the Goldmund is based on Linkwitz crossfeed, which is very similar to my setting 3.
  
 Of interest to me is doing something more advanced, but this would not be a simple project, I have lots of other things in the pipeline! In particular I would like to get the depth perception from loudspeakers on headphones.
  
 Rob


----------



## TheAttorney

x relic x said:


> Some people like crossfeed 3. Some like crossfeed 2. Others like no crossfeed. Rob likes 3. It's entirely a personal preference. I bounce around between off and 3 depending on the recording.


 

 Well I quite like crossfeed 1 (or none at all), which just goes to show that it's good to have the choice.
 With 2 and 3, the sound seems to lose some air and openness, which may be good thing on some over-wide recordings, but mostly these settings lose more than they gain for me.
  
 I've long stopped serious listening to properly set up loudspeakers, so that probably affects my reaction to the cross-feed settings.
 I do applaud Rob's aim to improve depth perception in headphones. As my system gradually improves, when I hear even a small improvement to depth perception - well it's a magical thing.


----------



## GreenLeo

rob watts said:


> Already done - the Goldmund is based on Linkwitz crossfeed, which is very similar to my setting 3.
> 
> Of interest to me is doing something more advanced, but this would not be a simple project, I have lots of other things in the pipeline! In particular I would like to get the depth perception from loudspeakers on headphones.
> 
> Rob


 
 What a good news!  I look forward to hearing this.


----------



## romaz

astrostar59 said:


> I won't be going back to USB anytime soon.


 
  
*A New Perspective*
  
 I found some rare free time today and it has been awhile and so here goes...
  
 USB vs SPDIF vs I2S vs Audio over IP vs other...which is the best data transmission standard for audio?  I have struggled with these types of questions for a long time and I have been fed numerous different answers from reputable sources.  You have the likes of John Mingo of Baetis Audio who will tell you AES is wonderful while USB is horrible and then you have someone like Mark Jenkins of Antipodes who will tell you the opposite and that his implementation of USB is better than anyone else's SPDIF.  Looking at DACs, Berkeley refuses to incorporate USB at all in their DACs while the Chord DAVE embraces it.  MSB utilizes their proprietary I2S in their CD transports yet Vince Galbo recently told me he believes the future belongs to their network renderer (AOIP) and not to I2S.  
  
 I believe the correct answer to which is best is "it depends."  There are many examples of USB done poorly and so I don't blame those that proclaim USB to be an obsolete interface that should be relegated to laser printers and not high-end audio but if you look at the threads where people are passionately against USB, take note that none of those people are DAVE owners.  I won't argue with a DAC manufacturer who claims their AES or ethernet input is superior to their USB input.  In fact, it would be foolish of me to buy that DAC and not heed the recommendations of the manufacturer based on any pre-conceived biases I might have because truth be told, whether it be USB, SPDIF, I2S, AOIP or anything else, an interface is only as good as how well it was implemented.  In my own experience, USB done properly can be as good (and even superior) to the other methods of transmission.  
  
 The appeal of I2S is that it separates the clock and serial data signals resulting in lower potential jitter compared to something like USB or SPDIF.  With the DAVE, USB is isochronous asynchronous meaning the FPGA supplies the timing to the source and so incoming USB data is reclocked by DAVE's low jitter master clock.  As Rob has mentioned many times, the DAVE is immune to source jitter up to an unheard of 2us and so this advantage of lower jitter that I2S claims to possess is rendered moot by the DAVE.  I2S has problems of its own.  First, this is a standard for serial transmission and not a standard for transmitting data and so most companies that utilize I2S (MSB, PS Audio, Wyred 4 Sound, Audio-Gd) have their own standards that are often proprietary.  For example, you cannot connect an MSB I2S transport to a PS Audio DAC.  Another problem you will find with I2S, because most implementations are proprietary is that 3rd party I2S sources are almost impossible to find.  Sonore used to make a very good AOIP I2S device called the Signature Series Rendu that worked with a few I2S DACs like the PS Audio.  While highly regarded, Sonore couldn't find a market for it and so it was discontinued.  It is unlikely you will find any company investing much resources into a high-quality I2S source if the market isn't there.  Finally, I2S is bandwidth limited and maxes out at 192 kHz sampling in a best case scenario.  It is difficult to consider this an interface of the future with this type of limitation.  Again, even MSB doesn't consider it their interface of the future and they were once its biggest proponent.
  
 SPDIF, whether it be XLR (AES/EBU), RCA/BNC or optical has the same bandwidth limitations as I2S and so once again, it is difficult to consider this an interface of the future when 24/192 is the best that most SPDIF implementations are capable of (DAVE is unique since it's digital coax can pass a 384kHz sampled signal).  My opinion is that those that claim that SPDIF is superior haven't figured out how to properly implement USB.  
  
 As for AOIP, I believe its future is bright but not necessarily at the expense of USB as the two share more similarities than differences.  In fact, both USB and ethernet utilize packet protocols (they transmit data as packets) and so they both share the same strengths and weaknesses of packet protocols.  Both ethernet and USB have the advantage of superior resolution over any SPDIF or I2S implementation.  USB 2.0 (480Mb/s) and Gigabit Ethernet (1000Mb/s) are the only audio transmission protocols that can pass a 32 bit signal with sampling in excess of 384 kHz.  For non-Chord DACs that benefit from HQPlayer with oversampling, for example, you _must_ use one of these interfaces.  SPDIF and I2S just won't cut it and so to say these interfaces represent the future would be to ignore what many cutting edge audiophiles are doing today with oversampling.  When done well, both ethernet and USB are excellent and even complementary.  A good example of this is the Sonore microRendu, what I consider to be the finest digital endpoint you can buy today regardless of price and this device incorporates AOIP on the receiving end but also USB on the transmitting end.
  
 What are the challenges that face the integrity of both USB and ethernet transmission?  According to John Swenson, the electrical engineer who created the microRendu, it boils down to 3 things:
  
 1) Timing
 2) Leakage loops > ground noise
 3) Signal Integrity (SI)
  
*Timing* - Before asynchronous USB, this was a disaster but just about all modern USB DACs today incorporate asynchronous USB.  If so, then why are some still complaining of problems with the SQ of USB?  I think this is because not all asynchronous USB implementations are equal.  Just because you remove dependency on the source clock and place it on the DAC's internal clock doesn't guarantee good results.  You will see the likes of MSB and dCS charge upwards of $15k for their femto clock upgrades for a reason.  Rob has already talked about his Pulse Array's constant switching scheme being innately immune to jitter without the need for expensive atomic clocks:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/375#post_11963747
  
 My own experience has convinced me that jitter is _NOT_ an issue with the DAVE.
  
*Leakage loops > Ground Noise* - This is a bigger deal for DACs that have no galvanic isolation or poor implementations of it.  Even though many DACs claim to be galvanically isolated, it is clear that galvanic isolation, which is defined as "resistance to DC" is not equally well implemented among DACs and clearly some DACs are better isolated than others.  While Rob has admitted that his USB's galvanic isolation is not 100 percent, having recently tried an Intona Industrial USB galvanic isolator with the DAVE, I noticed no further improvement whatsoever.  Further down in this post, I will reveal my experience with a variety of power supplies with my microRendu that has completely convinced me of the quality of DAVE's galvanic isolation to the extent that I now consider this a non-issue.  While 100% of RF _is_ eliminated with optical, as Rob has indicated, because his SPDIF inputs have to go through a buffer and then a DPLL before it is synchronized to the FPGA clock, USB *is* DAVE's best input.  
  
*Signal Integrity (SI)* - The importance of SI is something that is relatively new to me but I am quickly understanding that this _*is*_ the reason why some sources sound better with the DAVE.  When I initially bought my DAVE, as I compared various sources that I had on hand, including several custom-built CAPS-type machines, a CAD CAT, and a variety of Aurenders, they sounded not significantly different than my basic Mac Pro or Windows laptop.  Where the differences among these machines were much greater with my TotalDac, Bricasti and other DACs, with the DAVE, I found the differences to be small at best where it wasn't worth spending "thousands more" for one server over another.  That opinion drastically changed with the Sonore microRendu.  Even with a basic iFi switching PSU, while running Roon in bit-perfect mode, the difference against my Mac Pro and Windows laptop running on batteries was significant and I believe there are other DAVE owners who have shared similar experiences with their microRendu.  Of course, this got me to wonder why this might be the case if DAVE is immune to jitter and is galvanically isolated.
  
 As I started to follow John Swenson's posts and have asked him questions on the CA forum, I was intrigued by some of the things he said.  This is what he had to say about why DACs with galvanic isolation and superior reclocking mechanisms are still susceptible to SI:
  
"What I have been finding in looking at DACs etc with USB inputs is that there is what I am calling "packet noise". This is bursts of noise caused by the USB receiver processing the packets of data. This noise shows up on both power and ground planes. Since the rate of packets is 8KHz there are strong components of this noise in the audio band. This noise can cause jitter in clock oscillators, reclocking flops, and DAC chips. It can also go directly into noise on the output of DAC chips. 

 The question everybody asks then is: well what about the DACs that have full isolation between the USB system and reclocking on the DAC side?Unfortunately this noise likes to make it through even this. Exactly how this works is complicated, I have written about this in the AudioStream articles. And bits and pieces in other posts recently. The upshot is that neither galvanic isolation nor reclocking completely get rid of it. They help attenuate it some, but don't get rid of it.

 This packet noise consists of two parts: noise from the USB protocol engine and from the USB PHY. The protocol engine noise does not depend on the input signal quality, just the data, so its impact is always going to be the same no matter what is done with the input. The PHY is the part that actually connects to the electrical signals on the bus, ITS contribution to packet noise IS dependent on the quality of the input signal." 
  
Exactly what is SI?
  
"SI consists of the rise/fall times of the signal, noise on the signal and jitter of the edges. Increases in any or all of these can decrease the SI. The decrease in SI can be so large that it becomes difficult for the PHY to determine the actual bits. Thus the PHY contains several methods used to pre-process the analog signals in order to make it easier to determine the bits. Modern high speed serial interfaces work at all because of these techniques that have been developed over the years. 

 When the SI is very good, the PHY can turn off the pre-processing steps and easily determine the bits. As the SI degrades the PHY turns on different parts of the pre-processing as needed. Each of these steps takes a fair amount of power to operate, thus creating noise on the power and ground planes. The more processing the PHY needs to use to determine the bits, the more noise is generated. Thus part of the packet noise is directly related to the signal integrity of the incoming signal. The higher the SI, the lower the noise.

 It is very important here to realize this is noise that is GENERATED inside the DAC by its own operation, it is NOT noise on the USB bus that is somehow getting into the DAC as is commonly thought." 
  
 I came to another revelation when I finally found the opportunity to test various power supplies with the microRendu.  John Swenson had spoken frequently of how a good PSU would make a very large difference with the performance of the microRendu.  He discussed three properties of PSUs that he felt were very important.  
  
 (1)  The first concept was leakage current which I mentioned above.  Basically, any PSU, regardless of how well its designed and whether it is a linear design or not, if it is connected to the mains line, it will have a leakage current and this is what John had to say about it:
  
"...in a nutshell it is noise that flows in a loop through the mains, power supply, DC from the PS, through interconnects (analog cables, USB cables etc) to another box and then back through the PS of THAT box to the mains. This is NOT, I repeat NOT the "noise on the AC line" that everybody talks about, it is completely different, it is hard to grasp what it is and how it works, but it is there with ALL power supplies that connect to the AC mains. Different supplies have different amount and spectrum of this noise and every system is going to be different as to where this current flows. It is usually a fairly low level effect, but once most of the other issues are dealt with it is frequently The largest contributor to sound degradation. 

 Thus differing supplies can have different leakage current affects on a system, completely irrespective to anything having to do with the first part of this post. Thus you may find out that a supply with higher noise but lower leakage, can sound better than the lower noise higher leakage supply. 

 One major problem with specifying leakage current is that it forms loops, (which is why it is called a ground loop) it takes at least two supplies connected to the mains to form this, thus it is impossible to specify the leakage current of a specific supply, it HAS to be in relationship with another supply. That makes defining a number for a specific supply extremely difficult. (If you have more than two AC supplies it gets even more complicated)."
  
 He said the only way to avoid or break this ground loop is to power either the microRendu or the DAC via batteries (meaning that at least one or the other or both has to _not_ be connected to ground) or if there was complete galvanic isolation between microRendu and DAC.  It was under this premise that he developed the LPS-1 power supply based on super-capacitors (like the Hugo TT).  It incorporates two banks of supercaps and while one bank is discharging while powering the microRendu, the other bank is being charged by a feeder supply and switching from one bank to the other occurs automatically and seamlessly with the assistance of an FPGA.  The importance of this design is that while a feeder PSU is plugged into the mains line to charge the banks of supercaps, the supercaps are completely decoupled from the mains line.  In other words, the LPS-1 is completely devoid of leakage current.
  
 (2) The second concept was output impedance of the PSU.  I took this concept to heart immediately as it made sense to me.  This relates to the ability of a PSU to provide instantaneous current when called for by the microRendu.  This is apparently especially important with explosive transients in a musical passage.  Here is what else John had to say about this:
  
"A bunch of experiments I did over a period of many years show correlation between signal integrity (SI) of the USB signal feeding the DAC and perceived sound quality. As the SI improves the signal sounds more "real". This has not been universally true for all people and all DACs, but has been true in a large percentage of the space (DACs and people). 

 Thus the purpose of the microRendu is to produce the highest USB SI I know how to do. SI consists of several things, jitter, noise on the signal,well formed signal (lack of over shoots ringing etc) and proper rise and fall times. 

 The power feeding the electronic circuitry is a very important part of achieving that high SI. As Barrows mentioned the noise on the power rails can cause increased jitter from the oscillator, and can directly wind up on the output signal. 

 The noise on the power rails comes in two parts: the inherent noise of the last regulator, (that is the noise when powering a fixed resistor) and the noise generated by fluctuating load current. This latter is particularly important for digital devices because the current drawn by the load (the digital circuitry) varies radically all the time. How the power supply behaves when given these changing load currents is very important. This is measured by an impedance VS frequency plot. 

 The Power Delivery Network (PDN) of the microRendu has been optimized to have very low impedance for high frequencies and mid frequencies, but not low frequencies. This was a deliberate engineering tradeoff, an important factor in USB SI is the length of the cable, shorter cables (everything else being equal) have better SI. So the device was designed to be very small so it could fit behind a DAC and connect with a very short cable. The tradeoff was that there is nowhere near enough room in such a package for enough capacitance to give goodlow frequency PDN impedance.

Thus for best performance of the microRendu the external supply must have very good low frequency impedance. Higher frequency impedance and inherent noise also make a difference but not as much as the low frequency impedance." 
  
 As I started asking around for the output impedance of linear PSUs that others were selling, no one could tell me except for Paul Hynes.  Most suggested it isn't an important spec and others told me they didn't have the equipment to measure it.  If you don't have the equipment to make measurements, I believe it is really difficult to know how good your product is.  John Swenson obviously knows the importance of output impedance but because he indicated his scope isn't sensitive enough, he is incapable of providing these measurements at this time.  He also indicated how important it is to know the output impedance of a PSU over a broad range of frequencies since impedance will vary with frequency.  What are the measured output impedance values quoted by Paul Hynes:  <3 milliohms from DC to 100kHz.
  
 (3) The third concept was noise (ripple) and this is what most of us think about when we think about a superior PSU.  This is also where linear PSUs generally excel over the switching types.  Most switching PSUs have noise levels well in excess of 10 mV.  The HD Plex LPSU that I own measures down to about 500uV, at least 20x quieter than the best switching PSUs.  Both the LPS-1 and the Paul Hynes PSU have much quieter voltage regulators and so they quote noise levels as low as about 5uV.  In fact, there are several very fine LPSUs that I found that have noise levels this low.
  
 So this is where things became educational for me.  When John first educated me about the concept of leakage current, because the microRendu requires only 6-9V at 2A, even before my LPS-1 arrived, I was able to test the impact of this leakage current in my own system.  I compared the iFi and HDPlex PSUs against an inexpensive 9V battery supply I found on Amazon that is designed to charge your cell phone.  It utilizes a noisy linear regulator (much noiser than either the HDPlex or iFi, I'm sure) but at least it wasn't connected to ground and so I could in some way directly assess the importance of leakage current.  I did, in fact, notice a small improvement, enough to switch to this battery supply full time, but the improvement was quite small.  I could have gone either way and it wouldn't have really mattered.  
  
 When my LPS-1 finally arrived, I believe I was the first to receive mine because of my proximity to UpTone Audio in central California.  UpTone Audio manufactures the LPS-1 and so the LPS-1 is a collaborative effort between Alex Crespi (UpTone's owner) and John Swenson, the EE who designed the LPS-1 and also designed the microRendu for Sonore (a company unrelated to UpTone).  Anyway, the LPS-1 almost doubled the performance of my LPS-1 against any of the other PSUs I had previously and so its impact was NOT subtle!  This improvement obviously was not due to leakage current, or lack thereof, because using my inexpensive 9V battery supply, I had already determined that leakage current was not that big of a deal in my system (which I attributed to DAVE's well-implemented galvanic isolation) and moreover, the LPS-1 trounced this 9V battery supply.  It had to be due either to lower noise (remember, this is about 5uV vs the HDPlex at about 500uV) or low output impedance.  The improvement I was hearing, however, had much less to do with black backgrounds and more to do with increased dynamic energy (better bass to the extent that I had to turn down my subwoofer, better definition, better dynamic contrast, more realistic soundstage).  If there was anyone that ever doubted that different bit-perfect sources can sound dramatically different with the DAVE, all they have to do is hear this combination and they would doubt no more and as far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with jitter or ground noise and more to do with the superior output impedance of this PSU driving the microRendu.  For those interested in my more in-depth summary of the LPS-1 on CA, here it is:
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/ultracap%99-linear-power-supply-1-launch-thread-29974/index8.html#post591892
  
 By this time, my Paul Hynes SR7 power supply still had not arrived.  Paul had been suffering through some personal problems and so it took months for this PSU to arrive but in my mind, I was almost embarrassed I had purchased the Paul Hynes supply as it cost more than 5x the LPS-1 and I thought that surely, this thing couldn't be better than the LPS-1.  John Swenson was very clear that supercaps have the capacity to discharge extremely rapidly and so inherently, they have very low output impedance.  In the defense of the Paul Hynes SR7, however, this PSU is a dual transformer, dual rail design (12V/5A and 7V/2A) and so it would have the capability of also powering a small NUC or Mac Mini or cable modem and so in my mind, I would be able to use it for other things.  When I ordered it, Paul was given only one directive and that was to build the best PSU he knew how and so the SR7 is nowhere in the same league as his entry level SR3 or even his much higher performance SR5.  Furthermore, part of the increased cost went into upgrades including silver DC cabling from the transformers to the DC outputs.  DC umbilical cabling used was also fine annealed silver.  Silver was specifically chosen for its superior conductivity (and therefore lower resistance) relative to copper.  Ultimately, this should result in even better output impedance.   I even went so far to specify his more expensive Mil spec XL connectors (which connect the DC umbilicals to his PSU chassis) as they have a very low output impedance of 1 milliohm.  As I said, I took this concept of low output impedance very seriously as I was convinced this would be what would make the most difference.
  


  
 So how did the Paul Hynes compare to the LPS-1?  This, too, was very educational.  To cut to the chase, the Paul Hynes _improves_ upon the LPS-1.  It is simply better and this was no small feat.  While the difference between the Paul Hynes SR7 and LPS-1 was not as great as the difference between the LPS-1 and the iFi, HDPlex or cheap 9V battery supply, the difference was NOT subtle, nevertheless.  In all the ways that the LPS-1 was better than my former supplies, the Paul Hynes was better than the LPS-1 in the same ways.  Better dynamic contrasts, better bass, better definition, better soundstage, and obviously, in this case, it clearly had nothing to do with leakage current or mains noise since my Paul Hynes SR7 was connected to ground and the LPS1 was not.  Because both the SR7 and LPS-1 had similar ripple noise values, the difference I was hearing most definitely had to do with output impedance (in my mind, at least).  This also convincingly proved to me that battery supplies are NOT automatically better.
  
 This is not where my education concluded, however.  There was much more to discover.  Remember, this Paul Hynes SR7 is a dual rail design and a 12V rail can come in handy for many things.  When I ordered this second rail, I was intrigued by another statement that John Swenson had made.  In essence, what he said was that most devices he knew of benefited from better SI.  The contradiction of this statement, however, is that he claimed the microRendu, like the DAVE, is largely resistant to what comes before it.  If you recall, the microRendu accepts an ethernet input and ethernet is inherently galvanically isolated.  If ethernet has one natural advantage over USB, this is it.  On top of that, John had built into the microRendu ethernet filtering and so he was not detecting much difference among various ethernet cables or whatever digital source he was using to feed the microRendu (ie Mac, PC, laptop, sonicTransporter).  In my own testing, I was able to verify that indeed, there wasn't any significant difference among sources that I owned but then again, none of the sources I owned were being powered by a superior PSU with ultra low output impedance.  
  
 I dug up my old NUC Windows PC that I had long ago shelved because I preferred the convenience of my Mac Pro.  The benefit of this small computer is that it has a 12V DC input and so I went ahead and powered it with the 12V lead from my Paul Hynes SR7.  Without any special OS optimizations, I installed Roon Server and compared it against my Mac Pro feeding my microRendu.  To my amazement, there was improvement!  The improvement was not as great as the difference between the Paul Hynes SR7 and the LPS-1 but once again, the difference was not subtle and was easily discerned to the extent that blind testing was never considered necessary.  
  
 But wait (you guessed it), there's more.  If improved SI to the microRendu from the Roon server (NUC) that fed it resulted in noticeable improvement in SQ, what would happen if I improved the SI to the NUC by powering the cable modem streaming Tidal to the NUC?  With my previous setup, local storage and Tidal streaming were always very close but local storage (especially with my very best CD rips and downloads) was often a bit better.  Well, I went ahead and powered my TP Link cable modem with the 12V lead from my Paul Hynes SR7.  The cable modem was then connected via CAT6 to my Netgear WiFI router which was then used to connect directly to my NAS (local storage) and my NUC.  I listened to a variety of my best sounding 16/44 files that were stored on my NAS and compared them to the equivalent 16/44 streams from Tidal.  These were files that I had established beforehand sounded a bit better (smoother) compared against their equivalent Tidal streams.  Now, with the Paul Hynes SR7 powering my cable modem, not only were the Tidal streams as good as streaming from my NAS, they were actually a little better and more dynamic.  While the difference was not as great compared to the SR7 powering the NUC, the difference, nevertheless, was NOT subtle!  Because my NAS takes more than a 12V input, I was not able to test what would happen if I powered my NAS with a superior PSU but it has left me wondering.  
  
 Are all improvements upstream noticeable?  I have not found this to be the case.  I have been playing around with different ethernet cables (AudioQuest Diamond, SOTM CAT6, Supra CAT8, Blue Jeans CAT6A, optical ethernet with TP Link FMCs) and the differences here have been small.  I even purchased a Paul Pang ethernet switch with TCXO clock (an "ethernet Regen," if you will) to reclock the signal just before it arrives to the microRendu and powered it with my LPS-1 thinking that this could be a way to improve SI further to the microRendu and while there has been an improvement, it is very minor at best.   Thus far, the biggest bang has been to power a device with my SR7.  
  
 Equally importantly, if I switch back to the iFi as a power source for the microRendu, any improvements made upstream are much much less difficult to appreciate and so powering the microRendu with the SR7 is where the greatest difference is to be had in my system.
  
 Of course, this has made me more than a little curious about what exactly makes a Paul Hynes PSU so special and so I asked Paul.  In his opinion, output impedance is not the only important parameter that he looks at and here is what he had to say:
  
"Power supply output impedance is an important parameter, as are transient response, settling time, operating bandwidth and noise. Neglect one or more of these parameters in the design stage and you will have noticeably lower performance.  For exceptional power supply design it is important to consider all of these parameters and optimise them to the best of your ability. This is what I do. The ideal power supply would have zero impedance at all frequencies of operation as you cannot develop any voltage into zero impedance no matter how much current passes through it. In the real world all circuits have some level of impedance and any current passing through this impedance will generate a voltage fluctuation, which in reality becomes an additional noise source in the system, which degrades signal integrity. It is therefore important to minimise the impedance to reduce this disturbance to the lowest level. This impedance reduction is usually achieved by an error amplifier using high levels of negative feedback, which introduces all manner of problems with operating bandwidth, transient response and settling time. This is a big subject to consider so I will not go into detail here. Suffice to say I do not use typical circuit topologies in my voltage regulator designs to achieve low impedance over a very wide operating bandwidth."
  
 As to how the signal so high up in the chain (from the cable modem to the NUC to the microRendu) can ultimately impact something as good as the DAVE that is immune to source jitter and has superior galvanic isolation, here is what Paul had to say:
  
"All circuits require a reference to operate and react with each other.  This is typically via a ground (0V) system.  Some circuit sections also require a voltage reference above (or below) ground to provide precise operation and this voltage reference is usually connected to ground for its own reference.  If the power supply is not clean and free from noise and transient disturbances, it will pollute the ground reference and anything connected to it creating uncertainy of reference voltage.  This noise and transient disturbance can be passed on from stage to stage once _*embedded*_ in the signal and it is quite capable of causing timing erros due to data streams.  Reducing the magnitude reduces uncertainty."
  
 Essentially, John Swenson has said the same thing, that there are anomolies that can occur upstream of the DAC largely due to issues in the power distrubtion network of various digital components that have the potential to "embed" themselves into the output signal to the extent that once this compromised signal reaches the DAC, there is no way for the DAC to know how the signal has been compromised and is defenseless against it.  Whether this is true or not, I will leave it to each of you to make up your own minds but my observations (which I have confirmed several times now and in the company of others) suggest to me that they are.
  
 In summary, in my opinion, the DAVE is as good as Rob has said it is.  Its galvanic isolation is well implemented and it is immune to source jitter.  I do not believe my observations above have anything to do with the competence of the DAVE nor do I believe that they can be salvaged by any DAC.  I have yet to hear a source sound badly with the DAVE but the quality of upstream components, especially the quality of the power supply network to these components do _absolutely_ matter and can result in stunning levels of improvement with any DAC but I believe the improvements are probably best realized by the best DACs.  While there is no substitute for a good recording, there is so much more in all of our recordings that we are not hearing because of these anomalies that up until now, have not really been considered.  While I'm sure discussions about USB vs AOIN vs I2S vs SPDIF will continue, I believe there are perhaps bigger issues that will now need to be addressed first.


----------



## ubs28

Thanks everybody. I'm myself using either crossfeed 3 or no crossfeed. I'm still not sure which mode I like best:


----------



## STR-1

Thanks, romaz - stella post. And there was I, having only just received my LPS-1, thinking I was done with the power supply side of things. Still, the cost and wait time with Paul Hynes gear are a little off-putting. I might take a punt on the silver dc lead available from mcru - http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-products/949-mcru-audio-grade-dc-power-cable-.html - to see if it adds anything to the benefits I am experiencing with the LPS-1. Then again, I might also get in contact with Paul Hynes.


----------



## astrostar59

romaz said:


> *A New Perspective*
> 
> I found some rare free time today and it has been awhile and so here goes...
> 
> USB vs SPDIF vs I2S vs Audio over IP vs other...which is the best data transmission standard for audio?


 
 Short answer, try it and then see. I am not saying it will be better in 100% of instances, but check out the long threads here and on computer audiophile.com. In those threads, pretty much 100% say AOIP beats USB.
  
 I try to stay away from the technicalities:
  
 1. Opens up a can of worms / assumptions with usually no self testing or listening experiences
 2. Encourages folk to get mad and defensive 
 3. Goes round ion discussion loops
 4 Mass quoting from the web from various sources
  
 My view, try it in your own system, then hear the difference. That is the only way to be sure. Yes some USB is done very well. I heard the CH Precision on USB, but the manufacturer says AOIP input is still the best quality.
  
 In my system with a USB 1.5K chain v Rednet 3 at 1K, Rednet beats the pants of USB. I have tried Offramp 5, M2Tech EVO full stack, Berkley and various jitter boxes and re-clockers.
 From the first track I knew AOIP was better. Yes it won't be fore everyone, for example my RedNet is limited to 192, so up sampling fans and some DACs may not work as well. In my setup I don't upsample beyond 192.
  
 Hope this helps.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks Romaz for a very informative post


----------



## TheAttorney

Great post romaz - it's got me even more eagerly waiting for my LPS-1 in the next batch.
  
 Just to show that mileages do vary, I found that replacing my monoprice ethernet cable with Supra CAT 8 gave more than a subtle improvement. This with MCRU P/S powering the mR. Maybe the LPS-1 will reduce such differences? Time will tell.
  
 @STR-1, the downside of that MCRU DC silver cable I think is that (0.5 Metres minimum) is far too long for this application. I'm aiming to strap my mR onto the LPS-1 (temperatures permitting), thus requiring only 1 or 2 inches of DC cable, which will (a) save money (b) further reduce impedance (c) reduce the number of odd little boxes cluttering up the place.
  
 With that in mind, I'll cut a couple of inches off the 1 ft directly connected silver cable currently on my MCRU P/S, add a couple of Oyaide DC plugs, and re-use the MCRU P/S for my router (assuming the MCRU people can reconfigure the voltage).


----------



## Golfnutz

astrostar59 said:


> Short answer, try it and then see. I am not saying it will be better in 100% of instances, but check out the long threads here and on computer audiophile.com. In those threads, pretty much 100% say AOIP beats USB.
> 
> I try to stay away from the technicalities:
> 
> ...


 

 I think you need to be careful here. Certainly, many DAC's will benefit from AOIP, especially poorly implemented USB interfaces, or no USB input like your DAC and mine.
  
 If you search the net, you'll find someone's comments regarding the DAVE and comparing both Rednet and microRendu.
  
 What you're hearing isn't just AOIP, it's also the JetPLL clocks in the Rednet. You can prove this to yourself by connecting a CD Player directly to the Rednet and routing the channels to your DVS AES output channels (you can even turn your computer off and it will still work providing you've routed the channels correctly - basically same Rednet sound signature). In this case, there actually is no AOIP at all - once Rednet has been told by Dante Controller what the routing is, it's updated in the Rednet and your computer isn't needed anymore (when directly connecting CD Player to Rednet). I've done this with the Rednet D16.
  
 Very nice post Romaz.


----------



## TheAttorney

str-1 said:


> I'm always on the lookout for cheap(ish) ways to improve my system even further and was wondering whether these RCA Noise-Stopper caps and XLR input/output equivalents are likely to bring any real-world benefits for my DAVE - http://www.audioquest.com/audio-enhancements/rca-noise-stopper-caps Has anyone tried these, or similar, with the DAVE?


 

 Strangely enough, I have the Oyaide equivalents on the back of my DAVE - added them a while back and then forgot about them.
 I chose the Oyaides over the much smarter looking Audioquest and Cardas plugs because (a) they're much cheaper at £15 for 6 and (b) there's some alleged science in the RFI absorbing magnetic wave disc thingeys on the end of the plastic caps. And the softish plastic is meant to dampen vibrations.
  
 The big question is whether there's_ enough _science on such tiny little cheap looking plastic cups for us to hear any difference?
 And the answer is... maybe. After swapping them in/out a few times, I felt they gave a very subtle improvement to SQ. Same kind of ballpark as switching off the display, but much less obvious than, say, the Supra CAT 8 cable I've just mentioned.
  
 Which means it could easily be my imagination. But here's the thing: Every time I took the plugs off, it was not long before I wanted them back on again. So if this is pure placebo, than at £5 for a pair of plugs, I'm very pleased with this placebo. I should add that I've got 2 active wifi routers in the room, so probably have quite a bit of RFI flying around. And my xlr sockets are used up with cables.


----------



## Jawed

jlbrach said:


> I have been listening to the crossfeed for the first time recently,especially on the old unnatural stereo recordings from the 60's...earlier today i listened to some early Jefferson Airplane where the separation is unnatural and you hear the guitar all the way on the right and the drums and bass all the way on the left with vocals in the middle.....the crossfeed does make this a more pleasant listen and in general with HP's does enhance the experience....I do not find all that much difference between the 3 settings so I tend to stick to 3 only because the inventor and designer tells me that is what he finds to be best!



The issue with crossfeed is the way bass is remixed. I've written before about the way you can end up hearing less of an instrument, such as double bass, because of the masking of its sound. You end up losing some of the musical insight that you paid big $ for.

Some recordings, e.g. from 2L, are so "wide" that crossfeed basically does nothing.

With crossfeed, as I've written before, "spacious" headphones such as HD 800 S get better focus on much "classical" material, as their default sound is arguably quite "diffuse" and tends towards phaseyness.

In other words, it's best to spend time understanding how different kinds of records respond to crossfeed before trying to use it generally.


----------



## STR-1

theattorney said:


> @STR-1, the downside of that MCRU DC silver cable I think is that (0.5 Metres minimum) is far too long for this application. I'm aiming to strap my mR onto the LPS-1 (temperatures permitting), thus requiring only 1 or 2 inches of DC cable, which will (a) save money (b) further reduce impedance (c) reduce the number of odd little boxes cluttering up the place.



Thanks, Attorney. Yes, you're right about the length. I won't be placing the mRendu on top of the LPS-1 as I currently have it connected to the DAVE using the supplied usb hard adapter, and I have the supposedly better Sonore/Cardas hard adapter coming in a couple of days. I'll ask mcru if they can do a six inch cable, which should sound better and hopefully be a little cheaper.


----------



## ubs28

I think I discovered something quite interesting after playing with the crossfeed section of the Chord Dave. There was a difference between the Chord Dave and Chord Dave + Auralic Taurus MKII that I couldn't put my finger on. But after messing around with the crossfeed section of the Chord Dave, I think I have found the difference.
  
 The reason why the Auralic Taurus MKII is so good on the soundstage and imaging department is that it has a crossfeed build into the amplifier. But it's a very subtle crossfeed that is not easy to spot.
  
 So in conclusion, only use the Auralic Taurus MKII with headphones and not as a pre-amplifier for speakers due to the build-in crossfeed that it has. Atleast that is what my set of ears are telling me with the Chord Dave as reference.


----------



## Beolab

Very impressive post Roy, most have taken all night to wright down? 

Just to summarise how much better do you feel the Uptone LPS-1 is vs Litium battery packs, like i am using a the moment? 

Is it woth to order a few LPS-1 insted? 

I like my sound, but a slight more timing is always nice to have


----------



## Jawed

rob watts said:


> Of interest to me is doing something more advanced, but this would not be a simple project, I have lots of other things in the pipeline! In particular I would like to get the depth perception from loudspeakers on headphones.



A simple approach could be rendering stereo as two ideal virtual speakers, with no attempt to render room sound, letting the acoustic in the recording do all the work. Doing this with just time delay and amplitude adjustment of the "far" speaker from each ear with respect to the "native" speaker for each ear. I've done some experiments with this and it's much more convincing than crossfeed in creating a feeling of sound in front of me as opposed to frontal sound that's dominated by sound from the sides and behind that I get from ordinary stereo.

The next step from that is a simple torso model (extra reflections from shoulders and chest). I haven't tried that as yet.

I also haven't tried filtering for each path: e.g. the left ear is going to hear a quite muffled right speaker. And each reflection from shoulders and torso needs some kind of filtering too. And each ear's native speaker needs filtering since the ear doesn't hear "flat" from speakers.

But, "average HRTF" can be very impressive:


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3eOuqAmLAA[/VIDEO]


So it could be argued that generalised HRTF is preferable than bothering with the simplistic thing I described above. Perhaps a choice of HRTFs, to allow people to "pick the best". A personalised HRTF will sound a lot better, though.

This binaurally recorded music video is rather sweet:


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itLxXeyM2aM[/VIDEO]


I wonder how much better that is without the grime of YouTube's audio codec :mad:


----------



## romaz

astrostar59 said:


> Short answer, try it and then see. I am not saying it will be better in 100% of instances, but check out the long threads here and on computer audiophile.com. In those threads, pretty much 100% say AOIP beats USB.


 
 Helpful and informative, thanks.  I read through the threads and as you've said, lots of people prefer it over USB but I saw no one preferring AOIP over DAVE + USB and so that's where I have a difficult time knowing whether this applies to those of us who own a Chord DAVE.  
  
 I do have a few comments.  
  
 1.  I'm not surprised AOIP sounds good.  I've never disagreed about the merits of ethernet as a transmission protocol.  As an error-corrected, galvanically isolated transmission protocol, ethernet has fewer hurdles than USB to overcome in order to sound good but once those hurdles are competently overcome, I continue to believe the two can be equivalent. 
  
 2.  In the end, AOIP and USB are just transmission protocols and that's it.  The components that utilize them will undoubtedly matter more.  For example, my TP-Link cable modem is an AOIP device.  I can connect it directly to the ethernet port of my Mac Pro.  I can then use Tidal to stream music from the internet to my DAVE via my Mac's optical output.  Does this sound better than an Aurender W20 feeding my DAVE via USB?  I can assure you that AOIP loses here.  AOIP being better than USB is not a given in every scenario.
  
 3.  What I believe you are really referring to when you talk about AOIP is REDNet but REDNet is not just AOIP since it also reclocks and then converts to SPDIF.  If you are going to look at REDNet for what it is, then you have to acknowledge that it is an AOIP to SPDIF device in the same way that the microRendu is an AOIP to USB device.  Both are AOIP devices.  What you really should be saying is that you believe SPDIF is better than USB because that is the ONLY difference between these two.  
  
 As to the differences between USB and SPDIF, I think I already briefly touched upon them with my previous post.  USB has superior resolution to SPDIF.  Unfortunately, this is why REDNet is limited to 24/192 since true AOIP doesn't have this limitation.  Even if you don't oversample, many of the best recordings today are made with DXD recorders.  This trend will only increase and while these recordings can be downsampled to a 24/192, it's a shame that you would have to do that instead of being able to play the native file.  I also stand by my opinion that with DACs where SPDIF sounds better, it's because the manufacturer was incapable of implementing USB properly.  If my DAC had substandard USB implementation, then I, too, would head to SPDIF but with the DAVE, USB is better than SPDIF.
  
 As I read through the REDNet threads, there were people who preferred the REDNet over the microRendu and so this caught my attention.  However, I never saw any comments that this preference was by a large margin.  Furthermore, it is unclear how high the REDNet can scale and I suspect it can't scale as high as the microRendu and I'll offer my opinion on why I believe this.  As I've recently discovered, while a microRendu with a simple iFi PSU can sound very good, with something like a Paul Hynes SR7 (or LPS-1) powering it, the microRendu can sound so much better and not by a small margin.  As I stated, in my system, performance almost doubled.  Furthermore, if the budget is there to provide SR7-level of low impedance power to the music server that feeds the microRendu and to the internet modem, the gap widens all the more.  Of course, you could always apply the same strategy to the REDNet.   Or maybe you can't.  It appears all the REDNets including the REDNet 3 and D16 that people are buying have integrated switching power supplies and so these units are as good as they're going to get.


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> Great post romaz - it's got me even more eagerly waiting for my LPS-1 in the next batch.
> 
> Just to show that mileages do vary, I found that replacing my monoprice ethernet cable with Supra CAT 8 gave more than a subtle improvement. This with MCRU P/S powering the mR. Maybe the LPS-1 will reduce such differences? Time will tell.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, I'll be eager to know what you think about the LPS-1 once you get yours.  Even though I found the Paul Hynes to be superior, there is no question the LPS-1 is the best value.
  
 As to the differences between ethernet cables, my testing methodology was probably different than yours.  While I never noticed any great improvement with optical ethernet isolation using my TP Link FMCs, because I already owned them and because in principle they made sense, I kept them in the chain.  At the very least, they offered surge protection.  When the SR7 beat out the LPS-1, I repurposed my LPS-1 to power my FMCs and while this resulted in a small improvement, because these FMCs consume only 2 watts, I found I could power other things with my LPS-1 and that is when I decided to experiment with a Paul Pang switch with TCXO clock.  This little switch reclocks all my incoming Tidal streams as well as all the streams from my NAS just before it is fed to the microRendu.  This is literally the ethernet equivalent of a USB Regen and because this switch also only consumes 2 watts, I was able to power both with the LPS-1.  When I did my ethernet cable comparisons, it was with the optical FMCs and Paul Pang switch behind them.  By this point, it's my belief that the SI was already of such high quality that the ethernet cables had very little to offer except to do no harm.


----------



## onsionsi

Intel Purchases FPGA Company 
  
 http://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-purchases-altera-fpga-company,30830.html
  
 And here is the quit interesting things in the future
  
 http://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-altera-stratix-10-fpga-cpu,32850.html


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> Very inpressive post Roy, most have taken all night to wright down?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, Fredrik.  Regarding the LPS-1 vs lithium battery pack I was using, it was almost a doubling in the performance, something I was not expecting although my lithium pack was very low quality.  There are many types but LiPo (LiFePO4) batteries reportedly have the lowest output impedance of all the lithium batteries.  Supercapacitors are supposed to have even lower impedance.  If you are using raw lithium batteries (unregulated), they can reportedly sound very good but as these types of batteries discharge, their impedance rises and so you will probably notice changes in SQ as these batteries discharge and so this could be frustrating.  
  
 If your lithium battery pack has a regulator, almost certainly it will be a noisy switching regulator similar to what I was using.  I am unaware of any regulated lithium packs that you can buy that have linear regulators.  The LPS-1 uses a linear regulator.
  
 The other problem with raw lithium battery packs (if that is what you're using) is they can discharge large amounts of current when fully charged leading to possible shorts and large amounts of heat generation.  It is well reported that raw lithium batteries are fire hazards.  
  
 For $400, I think it would be very difficult to beat the performance, convenience and safety of the LPS-1.  The way the supercaps are utilized in the LPS-1, John Swenson has suggested they should last 50 years and so this is not a PSU you should ever have to replace unlike a lithium pack.


----------



## STR-1

str-1 said:


> Thanks, Attorney. Yes, you're right about the length. I won't be placing the mRendu on top of the LPS-1 as I currently have it connected to the DAVE using the supplied usb hard adapter, and I have the supposedly better Sonore/Cardas hard adapter coming in a couple of days. I'll ask mcru if they can do a six inch cable, which should sound better and hopefully be a little cheaper.



Unfortunately, MCRU don't feel they can do the cable shorter than 0.5 metre, which is still significantly shorter than the stock LPS-1 cable (0.7 metre). I might still try it but am also interested in the Sonore DC-4 cable (copper), which is only 12 inches. I wonder if the DC-4 would be a little warmer than the MRCU cable and maybe offer a more attractive tonal synergy with the DAVE. I understand that silver is a better conductor than copper but am worried that too much silver in my system will leave it sounding too bright. I already have (on loan) an AQ Diamond ethernet cable and should soon recieve the DHC Silver Complement4 cable for my HE1000. Will the length of the DC power lead affect the sound quality that much between 12 inches (DC-4) and 28 inches (LPS-1 stock)?


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> Thanks, Fredrik.  Regarding the LPS-1 vs lithium battery pack I was using, it was almost a doubling in the performance, something I was not expecting although my lithium pack was very low quality.  There are many types but LiPo (LiFePO4) batteries reportedly have the lowest output impedance of all the lithium batteries.  Supercapacitors are supposed to have even lower impedance.  If you are using raw lithium batteries (unregulated), they can reportedly sound very good but as these types of batteries discharge, their impedance rises and so you will probably notice changes in SQ as these batteries discharge and so this could be frustrating.
> 
> If your lithium battery pack has a regulator, almost certainly it will be a noisy switching regulator similar to what I was using.  I am unaware of any regulated lithium packs that you can buy that have linear regulators.  The LPS-1 uses a linear regulator.
> 
> ...


 


  
 I am using the most simple solution consisting of 6x 1,5 volts Litium Verta batterypack (9v) without any regulators, and i can hear a significant improvement, from a normal linear 9 v supply today, but i was interested if the LPS-1 can improve the clarity/timing even further.


----------



## jlbrach

A question regarding the use of Dave alone or with an external amp.....obviously,it seems to me that if possible the Dave should sound its best as a stand alone device especially with HP's.....I have both the LCD-4 which is a power hungry beast and the Utopia which is incredibly efficient and easy to drive.I go back and forth in terms of the use of my Moon Neo 430 with my Dave....with the Utopia i never use the 430 but with the LCD-4 I go back and forth between using the amp and going straight from the Dave because there are certain recordings that simply need the power the 430 provides,in most case the Dave is up to the task
 Here is my question,I read over and over people suggesting that the Dave sounds best in a speaker setup as the Dac in a system...In this case the Dave will have to be attached to and driven by a power amp in order to play through the loudspeakers yet somehow that coloration that the amp with or without a pre-amp provides seems not bother anybody and simply be the norm yet when it comes to HP's people tend to try to avoid the Headphone amp...Is there a reason for this other than the fact that the Dave couldnt drive a loudspeaker system on its own?....I cannot come to a final decision regarding amp vs no amp and look for some guidance....thanks


----------



## bigfatpaulie

Every piece you add in your chain adds distortion - interconnects, amps, etc. - so if you are looking for purity, there is no substitute for 'nothing'.  You Moon adds colouration but with the perk of added gain.
  
 Speaker guys use power amps because, well, they have too.  Us headphone folk have an option.  Romaz has done an excellent job of finding a way to remove one as much as possible with the DAVE (see earlier in this thread) but his speaker options are limited to very high efficiency ones only, and even then.
  
 So in adding an amp you will lose some detail and distortion will be added - the better question is is it worth the trade off?  And the answer may be 'yes'.  Ultimately you are listening so you have to like it best, and who cares what anyone else thinks!


----------



## Crgreen

Re: DAVE direct, I think Roy is driving speakers directly from his DAVE, and is pleased with the result, though obviously, it's very much speaker dependent.There's been much discussion about DAVE in preamp mode into a power amp, and reasons why this might be preferable. I've tried it with my Audio Research Ref 75, which only has balanced inputs. More transparent, but rather lacking body, but I'm not sure if the current match is optimum. For some, like cleanliness, transparency is next to Godliness, but I'm not quite so hardline. I actually prefer the intervening Ref 3 preamp and it's tube colourations. It's a matter of taste and preference, which won't of course, prevent some people from telling you you're daft for preferring chicken to steak!


----------



## bigfatpaulie

Chicken over steak? That is crazy talk.


----------



## jlbrach

The Chord 2qute has no amp section to drive HP's so one has to connect it up to an amp of some sort just as one would have to do with the schiit Yiggy....in those cases is the coloration the same as with the Dave or the TT?....does the amp/Dac of the Dave produce a different output to an amp than would a DAC that is only a purel  DAC?


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> Thanks, Fredrik.  Regarding the LPS-1 vs lithium battery pack I was using, it was almost a doubling in the performance, something I was not expecting although my lithium pack was very low quality.  There are many types but LiPo (LiFePO4) batteries reportedly have the lowest output impedance of all the lithium batteries.  Supercapacitors are supposed to have even lower impedance.  If you are using raw lithium batteries (unregulated), they can reportedly sound very good but as these types of batteries discharge, their impedance rises and so you will probably notice changes in SQ as these batteries discharge and so this could be frustrating.
> 
> If your lithium battery pack has a regulator, almost certainly it will be a noisy switching regulator similar to what I was using.  I am unaware of any regulated lithium packs that you can buy that have linear regulators.  The LPS-1 uses a linear regulator.
> 
> ...




Placed an order on two Uptone LPS-1ś tonight, and will expect delivery @ the 9th of Dec, so we have to wait and see for the final result 

So your conclusion is a pretty huge improvement overall and timing / clarity gets even better than Lihium battery's! 

 That sounds very promising!


----------



## bigfatpaulie

jlbrach said:


> The Chord 2qute has no amp section to drive HP's so one has to connect it up to an amp of some sort just as one would have to do with the schiit Yiggy....in those cases is the coloration the same as with the Dave or the TT?....does the amp/Dac of the Dave produce a different output to an amp than would a DAC that is only a purel  DAC?


 
  
 The DAC output is the same as the headphone output.  Simply put the DAC itself has enough juice to drive headphones.  The DAVE doesn't have an 'amp' and people who say that don't understand.  
  
 Romaz and others did this with other DAC's:
  
  

 (Bricasti M1 DAC with He1k's connected directly to the balanced outs)
  
 Prior to the DAVE.  The DAVE just added a 1/4 jack on the front to make it easier.


----------



## GryphonGuy

jlbrach said:


> A question regarding the use of Dave alone or with an external amp.....obviously,it seems to me that if possible the Dave should sound its best as a stand alone device especially with HP's.....I have both the LCD-4 which is a power hungry beast and the Utopia which is incredibly efficient and easy to drive.I go back and forth in terms of the use of my Moon Neo 430 with my Dave....with the Utopia i never use the 430 but with the LCD-4 I go back and forth between using the amp and going straight from the Dave because there are certain recordings that simply need the power the 430 provides,in most case the Dave is up to the task
> Here is my question,I read over and over people suggesting that the Dave sounds best in a speaker setup as the Dac in a system...In this case the Dave will have to be attached to and driven by a power amp in order to play through the loudspeakers yet somehow that coloration that the amp with or without a pre-amp provides seems not bother anybody and simply be the norm yet when it comes to HP's people tend to try to avoid the Headphone amp...Is there a reason for this other than the fact that the Dave couldnt drive a loudspeaker system on its own?....I cannot come to a final decision regarding amp vs no amp and look for some guidance....thanks


 
  
 Well I am driving my Krell FPB-400cx amplifier direct from the DAVE. The interconnects are Nordost Valhalla. The sound is stunningly awesome this way (if I do say so myself). I haven't tried my pre-amp because it is currently playing silly buggers in this humid climate.


----------



## jlbrach

In my speaker system I have Macintosh MCD1100 as my CD player directly into my Mcintosh 452 amp driving my B&W802D's...I havent connected my Dave to the system,I have been using it as a headphone only system which is why I have asked about headphone amp or the Dave directly into HP's....


----------



## halloweenman

Question for Rob Watts. Is it possible that a DAC can have too much sound stage depth, too three dimentional? Over egging the pudding so to speak?

I currently own the TT and after the positive posts and reviews I've read about Dave I thought I would try it. Auditioning Dave was a flustrating experience. I never expected anything other than to like it. The soundstage is deeper and more three dimensional than anything else I have ever listened to. It has a lovely warmth to it. Instruments sound remarkably realistic and separate. All the inner details, such as reverb decay, starting and stopping of notes, are clearly rendered.

For me though, it's the gift of the deep, three dimentional soundstage that comes at a price. The price is the lead vocal is reduced, less forward, smaller, the overall mix becomes less coherent. It reminded me of when when we got our new 3D TV. I was sitting there with my wife with our Roy Orbison glasses on waiting for the Strictly special 3D transmission. It started. I looked at my wife and said, the ballroom looks like a miniature version, like a dolls house. It wasn't what we were used to, it was strange and didn't look right. It looked like a scene from The Borrowers.

Perhaps it's my room or speakers but it didn't work out for me. The TT adds a touch of this magic but it doesn't OD on it.

I also detected the Dave just has a touch more bottom end in the 40-50 Hz region.


----------



## Rob Watts

Not when you listen to live un-amplified music - real life has very much more depth to it.
  
 As to vocals - close miked vocals with no added reverb will sound flat on Dave, i.e. no depth - exactly as it should do. But because Dave is more precise in sound-stage, vocals are indeed more tightly focused - but it very much depends upon the recordings used. You could try adjusting speaker positioning - Dave will allow a bit wider width of speakers without the central image collapsing.
  
 I would try it if you can for longer, then you will find that you can't go backwards to TT! There is a lot more to Dave than just imagery - speed and impact being one.
  
 Rob


----------



## halloweenman

Hi Rob. My experience with Dave over the last five days is that vocals were lost a little in the large three dimensional mix. At times it sounded amazing, other times it just didn't sound quite right. I felt this from the first moment I heard Dave. I've never heard anything like it before. It just didn't work for me. I tried hard to like it!


----------



## bigfatpaulie

That's okay you know - not to like a product.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Different strokes for different folks.  Everyone hears a little differently, has different preferences and so on.  The only bad part is that you search for a perfect DAC continues.  Best of luck in the hunt and it would interesting to hear what you end up with.


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## halloweenman

I'll be sticking to my Hugo TT.


----------



## Jawed

Perhaps try less toe-in or spread further apart. Though room matching becomes a victim of you moving the speakers.

Although it seems you don't have DAVE anymore, so it's too late.


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## analogmusic

When I auditioned Dave vs TT,  I much preferred the Dave, and loved Dave's ability to project a vocal right in the middle of the soundstage.


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## ubs28

I don't hear how vocals are lost on the Chord Dave + HD 800 S?


----------



## phonyx

The 800S aren't fabulous, they're a pretty cheap can. The DAVE is a high end DAC, it would be better paired with the Focal Utopia or HE1K's before ruling it out? I can't afford a DAVE but love my TT you can't really go wrong with either one.


----------



## Here2rock

phonyx said:


> The 800S aren't fabulous, they're a pretty cheap can. The DAVE is a high end DAC, it would be better paired with the Focal Utopia or HE1K's before ruling it out? I can't afford a DAVE but love my TT you can't really go wrong with either one.


 
 How much better than 800S? What does TT refer to?


----------



## ubs28

phonyx said:


> The 800S aren't fabulous, they're a pretty cheap can. The DAVE is a high end DAC, it would be better paired with the Focal Utopia or HE1K's before ruling it out? I can't afford a DAVE but love my TT you can't really go wrong with either one.




The HE-1000 is a headphone that is below the HD 800 and HD 800 S because it's technically flawed. Don't let the price of something fool you. Even if the HE-1000 was priced the same, I still wouldn't buy it according to my ears.

I haven't heard the Utopia yet so I can't comment on it.

Also last time the modified HD 800 won the big sound award at Innerfidelity beating headphones like the SR-009. So I wouldn't judge how good a headphone is purely on how much it costs.


----------



## phonyx

here2rock said:


> How much better than 800S? What does TT refer to?




I cannot stand the HD800 or 800S so I'd say a lot better, to me and many others. Depends on your taste, but many consider the 800's soundstage to be exaggerated, and their sound thin, hard and bright. TT is the Hugo TT. 



ubs28 said:


> The HE-1000 is a headphone that is below the HD 800 and HD 800 S because it's technically flawed. Don't let the price of something fool you. Even if the HE-1000 was priced the same, I still wouldn't buy it according to my ears.
> 
> I haven't heard the Utopia yet so I can't comment on it.
> 
> Also last time the modified HD 800 won the big sound award at Innerfidelity beating headphones like the SR-009. So I wouldn't judge how good a headphone is purely on how much it costs.




As above, many dislike the 800 and 800S as well. I can't stand either of them personally, they're thin, hard and bright with an exaggerated sound stage. To me the HE1000's timbre is far closer to reality than the 800's (I play and know many who do, I've heard a lot of real instruments). Each to their own but I'd not rank the 800/800S as the pinnacle of headphones.


----------



## ubs28

phonyx said:


> I cannot stand the HD800 or 800S so I'd say a lot better, to me and many others. Depends on your taste, but many consider the 800's soundstage to be exaggerated, and their sound thin, hard and bright. TT is the Hugo TT.
> As above, many dislike the 800 and 800S as well. I can't stand either of them personally, they're thin, hard and bright with an exaggerated sound stage. To me the HE1000's timbre is far closer to reality than the 800's (I play and know many who do, I've heard a lot of real instruments). Each to their own but I'd not rank the 800/800S as the pinnacle of headphones.




You're hearing the limitations of the DAC then if you think it sounds harsh and bright. That is something that disappears when going from the Chord Hugo to the Chord Dave. 

If you think the HE-1000 sounds more accuratety than that is fine be me. According to my ears if a headphone sounds so smooth / veiled while having a screechy treble, then there must be a big technical issue somewhere that is not due to frequency response.

Maybe the Focal Utopia is the first headphone that I consider better. But I will first need to hear it with my own ears.


----------



## halloweenman

I listened to Dave using ATC scm40a active speakers. They have a very revealing and transparent mid driver that is great for piano, acoustic guitar, and vocals. I never use headphones on my hifi, just does not compare to good speakers for me.

I have never found Hugo, Hugo TT, or Dave bright or harsh. Dave being the warmer of the three, TT slightly warmer than Hugo. There is a big difference between Dave and the other Chord DACs. I did get what Dave was all about its just that for some reason I preferred where the TT rendered and placed the vocal in the soundstage. The vocal for me is the most important part of the song and with Dave I got the feeling it was more withdrawn, not quite right, a little lost in the large three dimensional soundstage. Interestingly, I preferred Dave for Elgar's Cello Concerto. I don't think the problem was speaker positioning as both vocal presentations were centred correctly, simply a preference of the way one was rendered over the other. I much preferred the timbre and refinement of Dave. At times Dave sounded extraordinary but the overall picture Dave painted didn't look quite right to me, a little disjointed. I came to the same conclusion at the end of each day, I tried for 5 days at home.


----------



## GeneralSensible

Almost 3 weeks ago I posted a question about the influence of power-plug polarity on the DAVE.
 Rob Watts answer was:
  
 Quote:


rob watts said:


> I suspect that there will be no difference in SQ by switching the Schuko over, as internally its transformer coupled, so there is no hot or cold as far as Dave is concerned. But give it a go, and the warmer sounding one would be the better as that would indicate lower overall RF noise levels. But my guess is it won't make a difference.
> 
> Rob


 
  
  
 So the last couple of weeks I have done some binge listening and found myself time after time in audio Nirvana. Unbelievable what this little gem is capable of. Rob Watts must be some kind of genius to say the least. Now, 3 weeks later it’s time to do some cable and other stuff tweaking.
  
 In my post a few weeks ago I promised to test the effects of polarity on my DAVE and last Monday I’d planned a power-cord (and interlink) listening sessions, so I also had the opportunity to listen carefully to the influence of polarity on SQ. I more or less repeated these sessions yesterday, just to be sure that the results didn’t got influenced by listening fatigue or other external factors.
  
 I used following music to determine SQ:
 Dire Straits – Fade to Black  (from “On every street 16/44.1)
 Benjamin Clementine - Winston Churchill’s Boy (from “At Least for Now” 16/44.1)
 Nils Lofgren – Keith don’t go (from “Acoustic live” 16/44.1)
 Miles Davis – Blue in green (from “Kind of Blue” the 24/192 Mark Wilder remaster)
 Deadmau5 – Seeya (from While(1<2) 16/44.1)
 Led Zeppelin - Since I've Been Loving You (from Led Zeppelin III (Remastered) 24/96)
  
 I plugged DAVE directly into my Mirror Image mono amps on the RCA inputs, driving my Revel Ultima Salon speakers via Van den Hul The Third speaker cable. Since this is a headphone forum I also used a pair of Audeze LCD-3s.  
  
 Just to be complete, I also tried connecting DAVE to my Mark Levinson pre-amp, both XLR and RCA connected, but running DAVE directly plugged-into the power amps does wonders for me.
  
 Rob Watts expected for me not to hear any difference in SQ when changing polarity and I will be the last to doubt him, being the kind of genius his is. But respectfully I have to tell I was very surprised to find out that polarity indeed has it’s influence on DAVE’s SQ. Not in extremes, but rotating the power-plug indeed did something in warmth and also in placement of voices and instruments. It all sounds a bit “cleaner” and more precise.
  
 Another thing that surprised me was that power-cable quality also has it’s influence on SQ when changing polarity. When I used the normal out-of-the box cable I could hear SQ improve a tiny little bit, but when using the cable I ended up buying (WireWorld Silver Electra 7) I could clearly hear a difference in SQ when changing polarity.
  
 I don’t know if every DAVE is wired the same way powerplug-wise, but for my device I have to connect the “live-wire” to the top pin for best SQ.
  

  
 So to sum things up, YES for me polarity has it’s influences on SQ, even with our beloved DAVE.
  
 Peter.
  
 p.s. I ended up buying the WireWorld Silver Electra 7 powercord. I also tested the Platinum version and this one is even better. For me the 4x higher pricetag kept me from buying it, but it took a lot of  self-control to keep me from buying the Platinum.


----------



## TheAttorney

I've given up being surprised by the difference between what _should _and what _does_ have an affect on SQ. 
 Happily for most of us. the best sound you heard coincides with the normal polarity of a standard iec power cord )


----------



## izzard1982

generalsensible said:


> So the last couple of weeks I have done some binge listening and found myself time after time in audio Nirvana. Unbelievable what this little gem is capable of. Rob Watts must be some kind of genius to say the least. Now, 3 weeks later it’s time to do some cable and other stuff tweaking.
> 
> In my post a few weeks ago I promised to test the effects of polarity on my DAVE and last Monday I’d planned a power-cord (and interlink) listening sessions, so I also had the opportunity to listen carefully to the influence of polarity on SQ. I more or less repeated these sessions yesterday, just to be sure that the results didn’t got influenced by listening fatigue or other external factors.
> 
> ...


 
 Can you provide details on how did you change polarity on DAVE?


----------



## GeneralSensible

izzard1982 said:


> Can you provide details on how did you change polarity on DAVE?


 
  
 Oh, that's quite simple for us Europeans. Here in Europe we use so-called CEE 7/4 or CEE7/7 Schuko AC powerplug, Schuko sockets are unpolarised, there is no way of differentiating between the two live contacts, so the plug can be used in two ways (you can turn them upside-down). With some equipment it is necessary to do a polarity check for the best sound, so I was wondering if I would also notice a difference in SQ with DAVE.
  
Indeed I did, as I mention in the post above.
  
If you live in a country were power-plug polarity is fixed, the only way I can think of changing polarity is to rewire your powercord yourself..


----------



## izzard1982

generalsensible said:


> Oh, that's quite simple for us Europeans. Here in Europe we use so-called CEE 7/4 or CEE7/7 Schuko AC powerplug, Schuko sockets are unpolarised, there is no way of differentiating between the two live contacts, so the plug can be used in two ways (you can turn them upside-down). With some equipment it is necessary to do a polarity check for the best sound, so I was wondering if I would also notice a difference in SQ with DAVE.
> 
> Indeed I did, as I mention in the post above.
> 
> If you live in a country were power-plug polarity is fixed, the only way I can think of changing polarity is to rewire your powercord yourself..


 
 Thanks, I live in US and would want to try this for a long time but haven't find a good solution.


----------



## GeneralSensible

izzard1982 said:


> Thanks, I live in US and would want to try this for a long time but haven't find a good solution.


 
 I understand that'll be a problem. Anything else then doing some DIY on your powercord to change polarity, like putting some polarity changer between the powercord and the device, would have it's effect on SQ I'm afraid.


----------



## Silvertone4

Peter (GeneralSensible),
  
 It looks like we have similar systems and similar tastes in components.
  
 I haven't bough or heard the DAVE DAC yet as I'm still auditioning other units, I do own a pair of Revel Ultima 2s which are drive by Classe Monoblocks.
  
 How does the DAVE pair with the Revel Salon 2s?  Is your system on the warm or cold side of neutral?
  
 Have you experimented with the Balanced output of the DAVE driving directly your monoblocks?  Did you prefer SE or Balanced?Any obvious differences in sound quality between them?
  
 Which interconnects are you using?  I'm using Wireworld Platinum Eclipse 7 balanced interconnects.
  
 Thanks in advance!


----------



## EVOLVIST

generalsensible said:


> p.s. I ended up buying the WireWorld Silver Electra 7 powercord. I also tested the Platinum version and this one is even better. For me the 4x higher pricetag kept me from buying it, but it took a lot of  self-control to keep me from buying the Platinum.


 
  
 +10 for buying the WireWorld Silver Electra 7 power cord. I auditioned many, many power cords, and I even dumped the Shunyata and High Fidelity Cables (even the Ultimate) for the bliss I received from the Silver Electra 7. I, too, tried the Platinum, but it just couldn't compete.
  
 I think I had said elsewhere that what's super appealing about the Silver Electra 7 is that it doesn't color the sound in any way, unlike many cables. It takes the stock cable sound and expands on it in all of the ways that other cable manufacturers advertise, but come short, i.e. cleaner separation of instruments, low distortion, airy sound, natural tonality, etc. But it's all done without messing with the stock signature.
  
 It really goes to prove that one doesn't have to spend an arm and a leg to get the most out of DAVE, and because of this, it makes it more apparent that Rob's design is nearly flawless in its independence of peripherals. Sure, experimenting is cool, and yes there are benefits that one can get from USB cables, power cords, AC regenerators, etc., but the gap is not as large as I was originally reading from others.
  
 In other words, everything can have an effect, but is it always the best effect? Most of the time, from my experience, the answer would be no.


----------



## Silvertone4

evolvist said:


> I, too, tried the Platinum, but it just couldn't compete.


 
  
 In performance or price point?  Are you saying the Platinum was not as good as the Electra 7?


----------



## EVOLVIST

silvertone4 said:


> In performance or price point?  Are you saying the Platinum was not as good as the Electra 7?


 
  
 I found no sonic benefit from the Platinum. If it was better, I would have kept it, believe me, but there's just something about the Silver Electra 7 that just sounds "right," regardless of price.
  
 The Platinum slightly fuxed with the signature, which is what many of the other brands do. I realized that I didn't want that. I wanted the stock sound, but more open and expansive, which is what I got with the Silver Electra 7.


----------



## TheAttorney

Interesting. Was this Electra match made in heaven specifically with DAVE? Or did you get the same magic with Electra to other components as well?


----------



## GeneralSensible

silvertone4 said:


> Peter (GeneralSensible),
> 
> It looks like we have similar systems and similar tastes in components.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Silvertone,
  
 If you haven't heard the DAVE yet, then I would say: "Don't wait another day!!" I think you will very much like it in your set.
  
 My system is as neutral as it can get, that's the way I like it. I select all the components as fast, transparent and neutral sounding as possible and the DAVE totally fits this picture.
  
 I did some experiments with XLR, both via the pre-amp with Madrigal CZ-Gel cabling and also directly on the DAVE with Van Den Hul cables. But really, the best results I got using the RCA inputs on the DAVE. I'm using WireWorld Silver Eclipse 7, I like them very much (but haven't heard the platinum version yet).
  
 Again, if you haven't heard DAVE yet, give it a try. I think you will be surprised, as I was a couple of weeks ago. 
  
 Good listening,
 Peter.


----------



## STR-1

I'm waiting on a loan of a Silver Electra 7 power lead, which I'm hoping will be available next week.


----------



## GeneralSensible

evolvist said:


> +10 for buying the WireWorld Silver Electra 7 power cord. I auditioned many, many power cords, and I even dumped the Shunyata and High Fidelity Cables (even the Ultimate) for the bliss I received from the Silver Electra 7. I, too, tried the Platinum, but it just couldn't compete.
> 
> I think I had said elsewhere that what's super appealing about the Silver Electra 7 is that it doesn't color the sound in any way, unlike many cables. It takes the stock cable sound and expands on it in all of the ways that other cable manufacturers advertise, but come short, i.e. cleaner separation of instruments, low distortion, airy sound, natural tonality, etc. But it's all done without messing with the stock signature.


 
  
 I totally agree and had the same experience with the Silver Electra cable. To be honest I did hear a slight improvement in SQ with the platinum, but that was a marginal improvement and not worth 4x the price-tag in this case. The improvement was slightly better micro-dynamics, especially noticeable on the Benjamin Clementine track "Winston Churchill's Boy"., but again too small to go for the Platinum.


----------



## GeneralSensible

theattorney said:


> Interesting. Was this Electra match made in heaven specifically with DAVE? Or did you get the same magic with Electra to other components as well?


 
 Generally my experience with WireWorld cabling is that they fit most set-ups. That's quite special. They do not introduce their own special "sound fingerprint" which actually for me is another word for adding distortion.


----------



## STR-1

generalsensible said:


> I totally agree and had the same experience with the Silver Electra cable. To be honest I did hear a slight improvement in SQ with the platinum, but that was a marginal improvement and not worth 4x the price-tag in this case. The improvement was slightly better micro-dynamics, especially noticeable on the Benjamin Clementine track "Winston Churchill's Boy"., but again too small to go for the Platinum.




How much run-in do you think the Silver Electra 7 power cord will need? I think the loan cable I will be getting will be new. The dealer said he would run it in a bit for me but I can't imagine him giving it more than about 50 hours.


----------



## GeneralSensible

str-1 said:


> How much run-in do you think the Silver Electra 7 power cord will need? I think the loan cable I will be getting will be new. The dealer said he would run it in a bit for me but I can't imagine him giving it more than about 50 hours.


 
 To be honest I don't know exactly. What I can say is that I connected the cables in the morning, listened a little bit but not very intensive. I heard a bit harshness, but those cables came straight from the box. I went to work and in the evening I started listening. I liked what they did. This was Monday evening. I repeated the session yesterday during the day and I didn't notice any difference in SQ so the cables were probably already in optimum condition on Monday evening.


----------



## Jawed

theattorney said:


> I've given up being surprised by the difference between what _should_ and what _does_ have an affect on SQ.
> Happily for most of us. the best sound you heard coincides with the normal polarity of a standard iec power cord )



Well, in the UK at least


----------



## STR-1

generalsensible said:


> To be honest I don't know exactly. What I can say is that I connected the cables in the morning, listened a little bit but not very intensive. I heard a bit harshness, but those cables came straight from the box. I went to work and in the evening I started listening. I liked what they did. This was Monday evening. I repeated the session yesterday during the day and I didn't notice any difference in SQ so the cables were probably already in optimum condition on Monday evening.



Thanks. I look forward to hearing good things from this cable.


----------



## Mojo ideas

jawed said:


> Well, in the UK at least


 Interesting views on AC line and neutral polarity but our power supplies always convert mains AC to DC before slicing and diceing at ultra high frequencies before reconstituting it back in a form the electronics can make use of. So I don't believe anything of concequence can really be occurring.


----------



## Beolab

mojo ideas said:


> Interesting views on AC line and neutral polarity but our power supplies always convert mains AC to DC before slicing and diceing at ultra high frequencies before reconstituting it back in a form the electronics can make use of. So I don't believe anything of concequence can really be occurring.




It is like throw a grilled chicken through a jet engine at full power, so you should not hear any difference or with a highly expensive power cable in my book, but i use both above mentioned things for the looks, and i like to connect my products with the correct polarity nevertheless, but i should sleep very well without the fancy power cable, ( that does nothing) it is our mind and placebo to think it makes a differentiation because it thicker and heavy , our mind pre set itself to listen to the full bodied sound, with darker background with very fine crisp resolution automatically, but the DAVE sounds exactly the same as with a descent shielded "cheapo" cable also. 

I have tested this very carefully so i am sorry guys, but you have tricked yourself to think you hear a difference. 

So using a overly expensive power cable to feed a switch power supply seems not so clever if you understand the technique and point behind a switching supply. 

Placebo it is called... 

Then your hearing fluctuating over one day, if you are tiered or hungry for example, you hear differently and you got a more tuff time to focus.


----------



## STR-1

Does the DAVE draw power from Vbus when using usb? Because it's mains powered I assumed it didn't. Just tried inserting a Sbooster Vbus2 Isolator between my mRendu and a Sonore usb hard adapter (also tried with the stock usb cable that came with DAVE), and nothing. Same result when using between my iMac computer and usb cable (feeding both DAVE and Mojo). Should the isolator work with these Chord dacs?


----------



## miketlse

str-1 said:


> Does the DAVE draw power from Vbus when using usb? Because it's mains powered I assumed it didn't. Just tried inserting a Sbooster Vbus2 Isolator between my mRendu and a Sonore usb hard adapter (also tried with the stock usb cable that came with DAVE), and nothing. Same result when using between my iMac computer and usb cable (feeding both DAVE and Mojo). Should the isolator work with these Chord dacs?


 
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post/24990#post_12970766
  
 The Mojo runs off battery, but uses the VBUS to detect that there is a USB device connected, and then activates the USB input signal processing circuitry. If you block the VBUS signal, then the Mojo will deactivate the USB input signal processing circuitry, with the result being that you hear no music.
  
 I suspect that the same applies to the DAVE, even though it is mains powered - no VBUS signal means deactivated USB input signal processing circuitry, with the result being that you hear no music.


----------



## x RELIC x

miketlse said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post/24990#post_12970766
> 
> The Mojo runs off battery, but uses the VBUS to detect that there is a USB device connected, and then activates the USB input signal processing circuitry. If you block the VBUS signal, then the Mojo will deactivate the USB input signal processing circuitry, with the result being that you hear no music.
> 
> I suspect that the same applies to the DAVE, even though it is mains powered - no VBUS signal means deactivated USB input signal processing circuitry, with the result being that you hear no music.




This.


----------



## STR-1

miketlse said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post/24990#post_12970766
> 
> The Mojo runs off battery, but uses the VBUS to detect that there is a USB device connected, and then activates the USB input signal processing circuitry. If you block the VBUS signal, then the Mojo will deactivate the USB input signal processing circuitry, with the result being that you hear no music.
> 
> I suspect that the same applies to the DAVE, even though it is mains powered - no VBUS signal means deactivated USB input signal processing circuitry, with the result being that you hear no music.



Thanks. It was just a very cheap experiment.


----------



## Jawed

mojo ideas said:


> jawed said:
> 
> 
> > Well, in the UK at least
> ...



I'm hoping to have my DAVE in time for Christmas (pretty please!!!!) so I haven't done a mains polarity comparison.

Certainly there's decades of anecdotes of a worthwhile difference relating to mains polarity with linear power supplies.

I have used an optimised cable configuration for mains power, when I ran a big Naim system. That had 8 or 9 (can't remember) equal-length IEC power cables running into a single wall plug. That's the most mains madness I've engaged in 

But I've never bothered with polarity. I think an FM tuner is the only thing I've owned that gave me the option to even experiment, easily. Everything else would have required tedious re-wiring just to conduct the experiment. No thanks!


----------



## dmance

Does the DAVE get firmware updates?, like, for example, the PSAudio DS...which has had several...and improved along the way.
Thanks
Dan


----------



## Ampus

Questions for Rob Watts:

1) Is it ok to use SHORTING BNC caps on DAVE's unused ports? I read that shorting caps can potentially cause damage on some preamps.
2) If OK to use, would there be any potential sonic benefit with the shorting caps?

Thank you and I will take the answer off the air


----------



## miketlse

ampus said:


> Questions for Rob Watts:
> 
> 1) Is it ok to use SHORTING BNC caps on DAVE's unused ports? I read that shorting caps can potentially cause damage on some preamps.
> 2) If OK to use, would there be any potential sonic benefit with the shorting caps?
> ...


 
  
 If you mean caps to provide RFI shielding, then i think the question has been asked a few times, but this possibly also includes the TT thread as well, and I think Rob said no need, but they are cheap if people want to add them. i have just searched, but cannot find the posts, but you may be luckier than me.


----------



## Ampus

miketlse said:


> If you mean caps to provide RFI shielding, then i think the question has been asked a few times, but this possibly also includes the TT thread as well, and I think Rob said no need, but they are cheap if people want to add them. i have just searched, but cannot find the posts, but you may be luckier than me.



Thanks Miketlse.

I use the NON-shorting caps on the unused RCA ports of my amps and preamps, mainly to keep the dust out, as I don't really hear any sonic improvement.

Some people swear by SHORTING caps; however, I have never used SHORTING caps before and just want to make sure that I don't damage my DAVE using them.


----------



## miketlse

ampus said:


> Thanks Miketlse.
> 
> I use the NON-shorting caps on the unused RCA ports of my amps and preamps, mainly to keep the dust out, as I don't really hear any sonic improvement.
> 
> Some people swear by SHORTING caps; however, I have never used SHORTING caps before and just want to make sure that I don't damage my DAVE using them.


 
 best to get the definitive answer from RW.


----------



## TSAVJason

Hello everyone!

Recently I was asked to let you potential Dave buyers know we are dealers. For us, the Dave has been a great addition to our product lines. If you're in need of a Dave and want the be treated right, shoot me a PM and we'll do our best to make you a very happy Dave owner!!


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## Beolab

If you guys are based inside EU you can shoot me a PM  

"Mojo for the people - DAVE for the few of us"


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## lovethatsound

dmance said:


> Does the DAVE get firmware updates?, like, for example, the PSAudio DS...which has had several...and improved along the way.
> Thanks
> Dan


Hi dmance
No,Dave doesn't get firmware updates.☺


----------



## x RELIC x

rob watts said:


> Hugo and 2 Qute won't have any upgrades. The knowledge gained from Dave means it will only work with more gates, so Hugo platform is pretty much optimum given the size of the FPGA.
> 
> Dave is possible to have an upgrade, but this would be back to distributor or Chord. I will only do an upgrade if we can make an improvement that is substantial though. Since my FPGA technology is maturing, its less likely to have one though. The DAC 64 had a lot of changes, QBD less, Qute even less, Hugo none...
> 
> Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

ampus said:


> Questions for Rob Watts:
> 
> 1) Is it ok to use SHORTING BNC caps on DAVE's unused ports? I read that shorting caps can potentially cause damage on some preamps.
> 2) If OK to use, would there be any potential sonic benefit with the shorting caps?
> ...


 
  
 1. You can on the BNC inputs - but *don't* do it on the BNC DX outputs!
  
 As too sonic benefits - no. In the very distant past the interface device sometimes oscillated, and so I use a pull-up to ensure that can't happen. Having said that, it's not impossible that the 75 ohm BNC inputs would pick up more RF noise, and that would find it's way onto the multiple ground planes and then alter the sound, but I can't see that actually happening in practice as the BNC ground is already connected to the ground plane.
  
 Active inputs that are linear would be much more sensitive, but the pull-ups ensure the input is not active when not used.
  
 Rob


----------



## Ampus

rob watts said:


> 1. You can on the BNC inputs - but *don't* do it on the BNC DX outputs!
> 
> As too sonic benefits - no. In the very distant past the interface device sometimes oscillated, and so I use a pull-up to ensure that can't happen. Having said that, it's not impossible that the 75 ohm BNC inputs would pick up more RF noise, and that would find it's way onto the multiple ground planes and then alter the sound, but I can't see that actually happening in practice as the BNC ground is already connected to the ground plane.
> 
> ...





Thank you very much Rob.

Love your products!


----------



## ubs28

According to my ears the optical connection sounds a bit smoother while USB sounds "snappier" but less smooth. So which connection is more accurate? It's something I hear on the HD 800 S with my set of ears.
  
 Also does buying new a USB cable make it sounds more smooth while retaining the "snappiness"?


----------



## Jawed

Choose whichever makes each piece of music sound most different from everything else. The more unique each piece sounds, the better your setup.

If you can't decide, then try one option for a few weeks and see if your feelings over that time have expanded. See if one option results in music that surprises you more often.

Listening explicitly to sound quality with an analytical frame of mind gets in the way of the music. In the end you're not trying to draw a graph of sound quality, you're trying to enjoy and be stimulated by the music.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Its only recently that I have been happy enough with my system to show it off to friends. Started with various friends who were not particularly audiophile centric and the result has been in each case to change their view of how rewarding it is to own a good music system in their house, to the point of perhaps choosing to go without other luxuries. Anyway the person I most value his opinion is a friend I have played in bands, recorded with for many years and I would say the guy who really taught me how to listen properly when recording. He's a Quad guy. Electrostatics and all. We spent all of Friday playing anything he wanted to hear. He clearly appreciated the important aspects of audiophile reproduction but I think it was his reaction when he got home the following day which told the most. His comment was "Since I've been back, my Hi-fi sounds veiled and lifeless" .......another Dave convert I think.


----------



## onsionsi

I have a difficulties to toggle between the DSD+ and PCM+, actually i press many times in the left or right button to reach a desired one.
  
 So, could someone help me for this issue.


----------



## Rob Watts

I didn't want people inadvertently switching modes so you need to press the right or left button for at least one second after the plus menu is selected.
  
 Rob


----------



## Chrispb1

Surely this must be the kings new clothes syndrome! I've been at this hifi game for over 30 years and have experienced, to my ears, improvements ranging from subtle to significant. But, despite salivating at prospect of having DAVE on loan for a long weekend, I just didn't hear what all the fuss is about. It's nice sounding and totally competent, but only marginally better than the dac in the Bluesound Vault 2 and not as good as the one in my Mcintosh c2500 pre. 
I compared CD, ripped CD, streamed (tidal HD) and even against vinyl and in all configurations and nothing, I mean nothing about dave raised and oz of desire to own it. Not tried the Yggdrasil yet but very much looking forward to it and when it arrives on loan, I will again listen without prejudice.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

chrispb1 said:


> Surely this must be the kings new clothes syndrome! I've been at this hifi game for over 30 years and have experienced, to my ears, improvements ranging from subtle to significant. But, despite salivating at prospect of having DAVE on loan for a long weekend, I just didn't hear what all the fuss is about. It's nice sounding and totally competent, but only marginally better than the dac in the Bluesound Vault 2 and not as good as the one in my Mcintosh c2500 pre.
> I compared CD, ripped CD, streamed (tidal HD) and even against vinyl and in all configurations and nothing, I mean nothing about dave raised and oz of desire to own it. Not tried the Yggdrasil yet but very much looking forward to it and when it arrives on loan, I will again listen without prejudice.


 
  
 Consider yourself lucky!  You've saved a bunch of money.  I wish I didn't think the DAVE was so good - I would sell mine and buy something much cheaper if only.


----------



## dguitarnut

chrispb1 said:


> Surely this must be the kings new clothes syndrome! I've been at this hifi game for over 30 years and have experienced, to my ears, improvements ranging from subtle to significant. But, despite salivating at prospect of having DAVE on loan for a long weekend, I just didn't hear what all the fuss is about. It's nice sounding and totally competent, but only marginally better than the dac in the Bluesound Vault 2 and not as good as the one in my Mcintosh c2500 pre.
> I compared CD, ripped CD, streamed (tidal HD) and even against vinyl and in all configurations and nothing, I mean nothing about dave raised and oz of desire to own it. Not tried the Yggdrasil yet but very much looking forward to it and when it arrives on loan, I will again listen without prejudice.




I just got a Dave for evaluation for a few days. It's a healthy notch above my Yggdrasil which I have owned over a year now. It's just a more real presentation of instruments and voices. As is should be considering it's about a 6 fold price difference. If I was to quantify the improvement I would say 10% better imho.


----------



## dmance

ubs28 said:


> According to my ears the optical connection sounds a bit smoother while USB sounds "snappier" but less smooth. So which connection is more accurate? It's something I hear on the HD 800 S with my set of ears.
> 
> Also does buying new a USB cable make it sounds more smooth while retaining the "snappiness"?


 

 ​I've posted in other threads about the fact that, with any USB cable, the digital audio bits all arrive intact with perfect fidelity.  Why do we hear a difference?  Because the analog noise in the USB power rail lines has mV noise from the PC/Server that contaminates the physical layer processing of the USB data ... or, in a poor design gets right in to the D/A innards and adds timing errors that degrade the entire track.  When you clean this up (with any number of products, notably something which inserts clean USB +5V from a LDO regulated battery), you can use any USB cable for perfect sound - transparent to the best CD transports (all things being equal).
 dan


----------



## Beolab

chrispb1 said:


> Surely this must be the kings new clothes syndrome! I've been at this hifi game for over 30 years and have experienced, to my ears, improvements ranging from subtle to significant. But, despite salivating at prospect of having DAVE on loan for a long weekend, I just didn't hear what all the fuss is about. It's nice sounding and totally competent, but only marginally better than the dac in the Bluesound Vault 2 and not as good as the one in my Mcintosh c2500 pre.
> I compared CD, ripped CD, streamed (tidal HD) and even against vinyl and in all configurations and nothing, I mean nothing about dave raised and oz of desire to own it. Not tried the Yggdrasil yet but very much looking forward to it and when it arrives on loan, I will again listen without prejudice.




This you first post on HeadFi .

Very interesting: 

Can you describe for us on how you connect the DAVE ? 
Did you use headphones and what model/brand or speakers through your Mcintoish Pre amp? 
Then lastly, Bluesound Vault 2 got only a Toslink and Coax output, so i assume you have not tested it with USB.


----------



## GryphonGuy

During the first couple of days with my DAVE, I was not getting anything of "gee-wiz" type euphoria that everyone was talking about either. I found the optical and SPDIF connections identical in sound quality and quite restricted in the soundstage dept and the AES connection with an AES protocol on that cable to be unlistenable compared with optical or SPDIF. BUT, I put the SPDIF protocol through the AES cable (transparent reference digital AES cable) and the presentation became slightly better (airier wider etc) than the single-ended bayonet SPDIF connection.
  
 However USB was slightly better than the traditional audio connections even with the stock USB cable.
  
 Now that I have the Kimber KS-2436AG USB cable in the system and both DAVE and the Kimber USB have got some mileage on them, the sound is so awesome I have never felt the need to revisit the traditional connection types to see if they have changed much since the testing when DAVE was a couple of days old.
  
 Of course YMMV and probably does compared with my journey.
  
 GG


----------



## Beolab

" I put the SPDIF protocol through the AES "

What source did you use here?


----------



## GryphonGuy

beolab said:


> " I put the SPDIF protocol through the AES "
> 
> What source did you use here?


 
  
 I was using a Logitech Transporter at the time and it can send either AES/EBU protocol or S/PDIF protocol through its AES output. Normally the AES protocol through the AES "balanced" interface is far superior in my experience to the single ended S/PDIF. But DAVE saw it differently in the early days of its operational life, at least.
  
 GG


----------



## jlbrach

I sure wish I didnt hear the difference with the Dave...I had the Yiggy which i sold for the TT which i sold for the Dave and if only I didnt hear a difference or enjoy the Dave immensely my wallet would be quite a bit fatter


----------



## Jawed

chrispb1 said:


> Surely this must be the kings new clothes syndrome!




http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/5400#post_12967527



rob watts said:


> Yes they do sound - again IMHO - great out of the box. If you are not knocked out on first listen, its either Dave is not to your taste (some like artificial softness, some like hard etched sounds) or your system is flawed.
> 
> Eight times out of ten, plugging Dave in just sounds glorious - cavernous sound-stage and I say to myself "Dave has entered the building". One time out of ten I need to seriously tweak or change the system to get Dave to sing. But one time in ten it just sounds terribly flat and un-emotional and there is nothing that can be done; Dave isn't magic, it can't cure a fundamentally ill system.


----------



## halloweenman

That is a very brave statement. When I listened to Dave I heard it's cavernous soundstage, and heard a huge difference with my humble TT. I think I got it. Dave sound was very much to my taste but the soundstaging didn't seem right. The only thing I can blame is either my room acoustics or Dave. The soundstage from Dave sounded disjointed compared to TT, especially around the vocal. My room acoustics are not ideal but I don't think they are terrible. I do have very good speakers which will render a soundstage much better than most.


----------



## analogmusic

When I heard Dave, it was with a Naim amplifier (172/250.2) and Dynaudio speakers (C2), Dave sounded amazing to me, no issues with soundstage at all. Anna Nalicks song Breathe (2am) was presented with her voice right in the centre of the speakers, just as it is supposed to be. 
  
 Sorry Halloween man, something is wrong in your set up, but it isn't the Dave


----------



## halloweenman

C2 are no match for the mighty ATC mid driver. It might well be my room. The vocals were centred but it was like an effect\processing was applied so everything sounded disjointed or unrealistic in the space, best I can describe is like watching 3d TV at home - just doesn't look right. If Rob's statement is true then my room is the likely culprit but why did I not detect this with TT?

Btw I don't like artificial softness or a hard etched sound.


----------



## tunes

How much did you pay for the DHC Silver Complement4 cable and how did you decide on that particular cable for the HEK? I am concerned about silver cables for the HEK which is already a detailed and bright sounding headphone.


----------



## ddanois

I don't have the Silver Complement 4 cable but I have to say that my new HEKV2 performs very well with my Prion4 (non-spore). Running them with the Dave and the 430HA. Probably the most disappointing thing is that the new HEKV2 cables sound amazing and I actually prefer them to the Prion4 with certain music. More interestingly, the Prion4 sounds better out of the Dave directly than out of the 430HA.


----------



## STR-1

tunes said:


> How much did you pay for the DHC Silver Complement4 cable and how did you decide on that particular cable for the HEK? I am concerned about silver cables for the HEK which is already a detailed and bright sounding headphone.



I've got the Silver Complement4 on order for my HE1000 v1. I ordered it after seeing several favourable comments about the cable on this and other Head-fi threads. I'm currently using the Moon Audio Silver Dragon v3 Premium cable with the HE1000 out of the DAVE, and most of the time it sounds great and a very clear and significant jump up from the stock cable. However, there are times (not that often) when it presents just a little too much energy for me; yes, it sounds just a little too bright on these ocassions. The DHC cable is reported not to have this brightness, but to be just as (if not more) detailed. I will find out for myself sometime in the New Year.


----------



## analogmusic

Halloween man 

What is the source for your Dave ?


----------



## halloweenman

Macbook running on batteries with Audirvana


----------



## snk8699

*A big thank you to @TSAVJason at The Source A/V for placing my order for the DAVE!*
  
 I have finally read enough reviews, commentaries, and diatribes on DAVE to know that this was the future of headphone listening as we know it and placed my order.  I can safely say that after thoroughly enjoying both the Hugo and Hugo TT, this should end the quest for any DAC in the foreseeable future as the laws of diminishing returns are in full effect.  I simply can't wait for it to arrive in the upcoming weeks and attempt to aurally comprehend how it can it any better than what I'm currently listening to with the Utopia / Hugo TT combination.
  
 I just want to say thank you to The Source A/V for such a personalized buying experience and sharing your audio journey through the years with me.  Jason believes we are entering a headphone renaissance and the best may be yet to come.  Thankfully, I will get to enjoy all the DAVE has to offer before the next landmark Chord product is announced.


----------



## EVOLVIST

When I first heard the DAVE I was not blown away at all, and I even said so in these very pages. In fact, I had some of my iFi gear with me and my SPL Auditor, and after 3 hours of comparing I proclaimed that the iFi gear was just about as good as the DAVE.

I know it sounds kooky, but here's the kicker: something must have been amiss with how this dealer has his DAVE plugged in. I could only imagine that he had one of those super fantastic "audiophile" power conditioners that just sucked the life out of it.

So, I auditioned the DAVE at my home about 3 weeks later, and upon first listen, this was a totally different DAC. I then got a bunch of other big names DACs into my home at the same time, and it's just that simple: the DAVE won out as the best DAC I had ever heard.

Now that I have my mRendu feeding the DAVE, it's even better. I'm very glad I didn't dismiss the DAVE at first blush.


----------



## tunes

I've got the Silver Complement4 on order for my HE1000 v1. I ordered it after seeing several favourable comments about the cable on this and other Head-fi threads. I'm currently using the Moon Audio Silver Dragon v3 Premium cable with the HE1000 out of the DAVE, and most of the time it sounds great and a very clear and significant jump up from the stock cable. However, there are times (not that often) when it presents just a little too much energy for me; yes, it sounds just a little too bright on these ocassions. The DHC cable is reported not to have this brightness, but to be just as (if not more) detailed. I will find out for myself sometime in the New Year.


Please let us know what your impressions are after you have some time listening to the new cable. You still never mentioned what you paid for them.


----------



## Beolab

Hold your speculations guys! ☝️️

This guy could be genuine, but most probably a Troll from another brand, who want us to start a debate and misbelieving. 
He have only published 1 post ever @ HeadFi , this says alot to me, so back to where we were. :muscle_tone2:


----------



## analogmusic

Well Dave is unlike any digital source I have heard before, and that includes Mojo, Hugo and Hugo TT.... and some other well known brands which I won't mention.
  
 Simply a different league.
  
 It isn't _that_ hard to understand why, after all, Rob Watts and Chord have custom created every part of the DAC, which includes a massive FPGA noise shaper which can resolve down to -350 DB signals, and also custom WTA filters which has 166,000 taps and a second order noise shaper for output stage, the performance of everything added together means music is presented as if one is listening to the live feed of mikes in the studio or other recording venue, with full transparency.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

You know the more I listen to bad masterings through Dave the more I am convinced the vast majority are simply down to poor optical connectors having been used in the process rather than AES or Coax. Has anyone else noticed that tell tale glazed sheen on some bad masterings or is it just me?


----------



## lovethatsound

daveredref-iii said:


> You know the more I listen to bad masterings through Dave the more I am convinced the vast majority are simply down to poor optical connectors having been used in the process rather than AES or Coax. Has anyone else noticed that tell tale glazed sheen on some bad masterings or is it just me?


Too be honest with you Dave i think it's because they used Coax.As we all know life can be strange at times,i mean coax really is the worst way of connection between equipment,and yet the hi-fi industry still uses it today,totally strange.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I'll take that as a windup


----------



## lovethatsound

daveredref-iii said:


> I'll take that as a windup


lol


----------



## Ashrunner

str-1 said:


> I've got the Silver Complement4 on order for my HE1000 v1. I ordered it after seeing several favourable comments about the cable on this and other Head-fi threads. I'm currently using the Moon Audio Silver Dragon v3 Premium cable with the HE1000 out of the DAVE, and most of the time it sounds great and a very clear and significant jump up from the stock cable. However, there are times (not that often) when it presents just a little too much energy for me; yes, it sounds just a little too bright on these ocassions. The DHC cable is reported not to have this brightness, but to be just as (if not more) detailed. I will find out for myself sometime in the New Year.


 
 And that is why we are all waiting six months for our orders with DHC! I think my prion cables will never ship.  I'm told they will be done by Christmas, so fingers crossed.  I'm also waiting on DAVE which hasn't shipped yet although I was told three weeks when I ordered it.  On the other hand, if everything arrives before Christmas, I'm going to have some great presents for myself!!


----------



## TSAVJason




----------



## STR-1

Following up on some earlier recommendations for the Wireworld Silver Electra 7 power cord, I've currently got on loan a one meter length of this cord to try out with the DAVE (they didn't have the one and a half meter I asked for, and I now think I probably need two meters).  It was new out of its case but I've managed to give it about 50 hours run-in.  Straight out of the case, my first impression listening with the HE1000 v.1 (Silver Dragon) and the Utopia was that the sound was more detailed, cleaner and much much brighter (far too bright).  The Silver Dragon on my HE1000 and using the LPS-1 powered microRendu already hinted at a little brightness in my system but the Silver Electra took it right over the edge.  Fifty hours in and some of that brightness has gone but some still remains.  I wonder, could I expect to hear much difference with a longer length of cord and/or with a Furutech plug (the cord I have has a standard UK 3-pin plug)?  Thanks.


----------



## rkt31

try furutech power cords. silver can be bright. furutech uses one of the purest copper in its bulk cable.


----------



## Sabenza

Hi everyone.  Just picked up my Dave (black color looks gorgeous) on Saturday.  Everything seems fine except that it will occasionally detect wrong sampling frequency.  This usually happens when I switch from DSD+ to PCM+ or vice versa.  For example, when I change from DSD+ to PCM+ when playing music in 44.1kHz format, Dave may display 88Khz and output some strange sound.  I will have to stop and restart Audirvana+ for Dave to re-detect the sample frequency.  In most case, this solves the problem but sometimes, I have to stop and restart the music 2 or 3 times in order for Dave to detect the correct sample frequency.  On rare occasions, even music was played for the first time after it was switched on, Dave may detect the wrong sampling frequency, and I will have to stop and restart the track with Audirvana+ for Dave to re-detect the correct sample frequency.
  
 I am using iMac to Dave with Audioquest Diamond USB Cable, and then, direct to Utopia.  Power cable is stock.  In the past, Hugo TT was used in the same way as the Dave and no such problem ever arised.
  
 Has anyone experienced this before?  Should I be concerned?


----------



## Sabenza

I forgot to mention that I have a Jitterbug at the iMac end of the Audioquest USB Diamond Cable


----------



## halloweenman

sabenza said:


> Hi everyone.  Just picked up my Dave (black color looks gorgeous) on Saturday.  Everything seems fine except that it will occasionally detect wrong sampling frequency.  This usually happens when I switch from DSD+ to PCM+ or vice versa.  For example, when I change from DSD+ to PCM+ when playing music in 44.1kHz format, Dave may display 88Khz and output some strange sound.  I will have to stop and restart Audirvana+ for Dave to re-detect the sample frequency.  In most case, this solves the problem but sometimes, I have to stop and restart the music 2 or 3 times in order for Dave to detect the correct sample frequency.  On rare occasions, even music was played for the first time after it was switched on, Dave may detect the wrong sampling frequency, and I will have to stop and restart the track with Audirvana+ for Dave to re-detect the correct sample frequency.
> 
> I am using iMac to Dave with Audioquest Diamond USB Cable, and then, direct to Utopia.  Power cable is stock.  In the past, Hugo TT was used in the same way as the Dave and no such problem ever arised.
> 
> Has anyone experienced this before?  Should I be concerned?





I had exactly the same problem when I had a home demo of Dave. I too use OS X and audirvana. Another issue I had was when using headphones and switched Dave off a loud click/pop occurred through the headphones, so loud I thought I'm pleased I was not wearing those headphones when I switched off. I thought the click/pop was so loud it could have damaged my ears and headphones.

I've mentioned this before but Dave, like all chord dacs, when using OS X it's not possible to select sample rate bit depth in audio midi setup at operating system level, only a single bit depth of 32 bits can be sent to the dac. This forces the player such as audirvana or iTunes to convert the data if you are not playing a 32 bit file. Alll my files are 16 bit so iTunes or audirvana will always convert to 32 bit before sending the data to the dac. Therefore I can never send a bit perfect file to the dac.


If I use a naim dac I can select the bit depth I want to send to the dac in OS X audio midi setup.


----------



## gnomen

Halloweenman and Sabena, I don't know about Audirvana but using Pure Music with iTunes bypasses audio midi.  The files are sent to the DAC at native frequencies as stored in iTunes, switching between different sources without any user intervention.  I would expect that Pure Music is not the only player to do this, of course.  I am just mentioning it because it is the one I use.  I have tested the bit-perfect files successfully with my Weiss DAC, which has a test for this, and presume it is the same with the Chord TT.  Cheers


----------



## Rob Watts

sabenza said:


> Hi everyone.  Just picked up my Dave (black color looks gorgeous) on Saturday.  Everything seems fine except that it will occasionally detect wrong sampling frequency.  This usually happens when I switch from DSD+ to PCM+ or vice versa.  For example, when I change from DSD+ to PCM+ when playing music in 44.1kHz format, Dave may display 88Khz and output some strange sound.  I will have to stop and restart Audirvana+ for Dave to re-detect the sample frequency.  In most case, this solves the problem but sometimes, I have to stop and restart the music 2 or 3 times in order for Dave to detect the correct sample frequency.  On rare occasions, even music was played for the first time after it was switched on, Dave may detect the wrong sampling frequency, and I will have to stop and restart the track with Audirvana+ for Dave to re-detect the correct sample frequency.
> 
> I am using iMac to Dave with Audioquest Diamond USB Cable, and then, direct to Utopia.  Power cable is stock.  In the past, Hugo TT was used in the same way as the Dave and no such problem ever arised.
> 
> Has anyone experienced this before?  Should I be concerned?


 
 No - but you need to be aware that when switching from PCM+ to DSD+ and using USB the app driving the USB needs to be closed down, as the USB device is reset, and sometimes the app does not pick this reset up and it goes into an unstable state. So simply shut your media player down, change mode, restart your player.  
  
 Rob


----------



## Sabenza

Thank you, Rob.  It's great to have the answer directly from you.


----------



## Chrispb1

beolab said:


> Hold your speculations guys! ☝️️
> 
> This guy could be genuine, but most probably a Troll from another brand, who want us to start a debate and misbelieving.
> He have only published 1 post ever @ HeadFi , this says alot to me, so back to where we were. :muscle_tone2:


----------



## thunder 99

Hi guys, 
So Ive had my Dave for a few weeks now and it is absolutely amazing. But I just wanted to know what would be a cheap usb to spidf connection that can be used? I envision multiple usb connections but there is only one usb port ok the dave (wondering what the rationale behind that is). I would ideally like to get audeophilio2 but considering cost and that the dave is relatively source neutral and that this is going to be youtube / non sound card pc output was wondering if people can recommend anything cheaper?


----------



## maxh22

thunder 99 said:


> Hi guys,
> So Ive had my Dave for a few weeks now and it is absolutely amazing. But I just wanted to know what would be a cheap usb to spidf connection that can be used? I envision multiple usb connections but there is only one usb port ok the dave (wondering what the rationale behind that is). I would ideally like to get audeophilio2 but considering cost and that the dave is relatively source neutral and that this is going to be youtube / non sound card pc output was wondering if people can recommend anything cheaper?




Ifi iLink $265

Wyred 4 sound uLink $219

I'm getting the iLink for myself soon.


----------



## halloweenman

gnomen said:


> Halloweenman and Sabena, I don't know about Audirvana but using Pure Music with iTunes bypasses audio midi.  The files are sent to the DAC at native frequencies as stored in iTunes, switching between different sources without any user intervention.  I would expect that Pure Music is not the only player to do this, of course.  I am just mentioning it because it is the one I use.  I have tested the bit-perfect files successfully with my Weiss DAC, which has a test for this, and presume it is the same with the Chord TT.  Cheers




Hi gnomen, I'm not sure it is possible for any software to bypass OS X audio midi settings, it tells software such as Audirvana or Pure Music what sample rates and bit depths the DAC is cable of receiving. Pure Music is able to bypass iTunes\OS X Core Audio. When you did a bit perfect test it would have passed as your Weiss DAC probably has multiple bit depth options in audio midi setup that Pure Music is able to set depending upon the file being played. With Dave or any other Chord DAC this is not possible as OSX reads from the DAC that it can only accept a 32 bit depth.


----------



## halloweenman

After Rob's and others comments, for which I'm grateful, I've decided to audition Dave again after making some changes to my speaker and room setup. My previous thoughts were that Dave was so much better than TT in so many ways but there was just something just not right about the sound as a whole. The changes have made a difference. Dave's imaging and soundstaging sounds a lot better now in my room. Just goes to show that speaker and room interaction can have a profound impact on sound, seems more so with Dave. I'm going to give it more time and see how I get on. Sounds are coming from Dave that would indeed be hard to live without. My room does have a low bass resonance issue that unfortunately Dave does emphasise having a little more there.


----------



## jelt2359

halloweenman said:


> After Rob's and others comments, for which I'm grateful, I've decided to audition Dave again after making some changes to my speaker and room setup. My previous thoughts were that Dave was so much better than TT in so many ways but there was just something just not right about the sound as a whole. The changes have made a difference. Dave's imaging and soundstaging sounds a lot better now in my room. Just goes to show that speaker and room interaction can have a profound impact on sound, seems more so with Dave. I'm going to give it more time and see how I get on. Sounds are coming from Dave that would indeed be hard to live without. My room does have a low bass resonance issue that unfortunately Dave does emphasise having a little more there.




What changes did you make?


----------



## Sabenza

I brought my Dave to the retailer which has an iMac running OS Yosemite and Audirvana 1.5, and I was abusing my Dave by switching from DSD+ to PCM + and vice versa.  I am also switching between playing DSD, wav aiff, and FLAC with many different sampling frequencies.  I abused my Dave for nearly 45 minutes and not once did my Dave select a wrong sampling frequency or put out strange noise.  Stock power cable and USB cable were used.
  
 There is also less popping or cracking noise when playing tracks with the iMac at the retailer.
  
 Would my problem be my iMac running Sierra?


----------



## x RELIC x

OS X has been having USB audio issues since El Capitan. The issue very well could be Sierra. Try doing a google search for Sierra USB audio. It's very unlikely the DAVE would be the cause.


----------



## halloweenman

jelt2359 said:


> What changes did you make?


 
 I basically moved the speakers more into the room and got closer to them, the result is probably less room interaction. Once I get proper room acoustic room treatment I'm hoping to experiment further.


----------



## halloweenman

I'm running El Capitan using Audirvana and got issues with wrong sample rate with Dave when swapping between Dave and TT. TT never once got wrong sample rate, only Dave. Never yet had the issue just using iTunes so perhaps this is an Audirvana/OSX issue?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

halloweenman said:


> After Rob's and others comments, for which I'm grateful, I've decided to audition Dave again after making some changes to my speaker and room setup. My previous thoughts were that Dave was so much better than TT in so many ways but there was just something just not right about the sound as a whole. The changes have made a difference. Dave's imaging and soundstaging sounds a lot better now in my room. Just goes to show that speaker and room interaction can have a profound impact on sound, seems more so with Dave. I'm going to give it more time and see how I get on. Sounds are coming from Dave that would indeed be hard to live without. My room does have a low bass resonance issue that unfortunately Dave does emphasise having a little more there.





If you have a wooden or even concrete 'suspended' floor then the low bass issue will probably be down to that. I had a simililar issue and found that a granite plinth under each speaker made a significant improvement. I would say that it has reduced the highlighting of one or two specific bass frequencies by approx. 90%.


----------



## halloweenman

Hi DaveRedRef, thanks, yes already have granite plinths in place, they do help.


----------



## rkt31

@halloweenman, for $12k, dave having a $150 pc transport is not a bad idea. why to stick to Mac . pc is far more hassle free transport using chord asio driver.


----------



## halloweenman

Installing Windows on my Macbook is also an option. I much prefer OS X to Windows so would rather not. Macbook makes a great source, has a long battery life, silent, no fans, no spinning disks, and uses very little energy.


----------



## Ashrunner

sabenza said:


> Hi everyone.  Just picked up my Dave (black color looks gorgeous) on Saturday.  Everything seems fine except that it will occasionally detect wrong sampling frequency.  This usually happens when I switch from DSD+ to PCM+ or vice versa.  For example, when I change from DSD+ to PCM+ when playing music in 44.1kHz format, Dave may display 88Khz and output some strange sound.  I will have to stop and restart Audirvana+ for Dave to re-detect the sample frequency.  In most case, this solves the problem but sometimes, I have to stop and restart the music 2 or 3 times in order for Dave to detect the correct sample frequency.  On rare occasions, even music was played for the first time after it was switched on, Dave may detect the wrong sampling frequency, and I will have to stop and restart the track with Audirvana+ for Dave to re-detect the correct sample frequency.
> 
> I am using iMac to Dave with Audioquest Diamond USB Cable, and then, direct to Utopia.  Power cable is stock.  In the past, Hugo TT was used in the same way as the Dave and no such problem ever arised.
> 
> Has anyone experienced this before?  Should I be concerned?


 
 There is a long thread on the Roon support forums about this issue.  Go to Roon and search for Dave.


----------



## halloweenman

Just been comparing a decent pair of headphones, Audeze EL8 (closed back) and Audioquest Nighthawk using Dave and TT to my ATC SCM40A speakers. Both the Audeze and Nighthawks sound nice, I prefer the Nighthawk for their more open warm sound. Not a fair comparison really as I suspect the semi open design of the Nighthawk is more to my taste than the closed back design of the EL8. One thing is for sure though, the best headphones in the world just cannot touch these speakers for realism and emotional exprsssion. Headphones are great for when speakers are not practical but they are a very poor second best.

As for Dave, my initial thoughts are still with me, so near yet so far, something not quite right. Soundstaging too big, too deep, too three dimensional, disjointed? Too smooth, too warm? DAC, speaker, room synergy? I don't know but I continue to prefer TT.


----------



## jlbrach

halloweenman said:


> Just been comparing a decent pair of headphones, Audeze EL8 (closed back) and Audioquest Nighthawk using Dave and TT to my ATC SCM40A speakers. Both the Audeze and Nighthawks sound nice, I prefer the Nighthawk for their more open warm sound. Not a fair comparison really as I suspect the semi open design of the Nighthawk is more to my taste than the closed back design of the EL8. One thing is for sure though, the best headphones in the world just cannot touch these speakers for realism and emotional exprsssion. Headphones are great for when speakers are not practical but they are a very poor second best.
> 
> As for Dave, my initial thoughts are still with me, so near yet so far, something not quite right. Soundstaging too big, too deep, too three dimensional, too disjointed? Too smooth, too warm? DAC, speaker, room synergy? I don't know but I continue to prefer TT.


 
 Dave with my LCD-4 and Moon 430 or with the Utopia straight out of the Dave rival the very best loudspeakers.....it is a very different experience for sure,more intimate but startlingly good.....I have a very high end loudspeaker system but recently I have been listening to the HP's more and more...TT is great and without hearing the Dave i said can it get any better than this then I heard the Dave and the answer was a resounding yes...


----------



## halloweenman

Not for being there realism, not even close imho. Shouldn't say that as I've never tried focal utopia but my guess would be that they are not a million miles away from nighthawks.


----------



## miketlse

halloweenman said:


> Just been comparing a decent pair of headphones, Audeze EL8 (closed back) and Audioquest Nighthawk using Dave and TT to my ATC SCM40A speakers. Both the Audeze and Nighthawks sound nice, I prefer the Nighthawk for their more open warm sound. Not a fair comparison really as I suspect the semi open design of the Nighthawk is more to my taste than the closed back design of the EL8. One thing is for sure though, the best headphones in the world just cannot touch these speakers for realism and emotional exprsssion. Headphones are great for when speakers are not practical but they are a very poor second best.
> 
> As for Dave, my initial thoughts are still with me, so near yet so far, something not quite right. Soundstaging too big, too deep, too three dimensional, disjointed? Too smooth, too warm? DAC, speaker, room synergy? I don't know but I continue to prefer TT.


 
 Rob Watts stated that one of the reasons why he enjoyed the Nighthawks so much, was that they provide a 'sound' that reminds him so much of normal speakers, in contrast to many headphones that give a closed in but very detailed sound.
 He also said that the first time he tried the Utopia (at a hifi show, so not ideal conditions for testing), that they showed promise as offering a similar 'speaker type' sound to the Nighthawks, but would need more testing in non-hi fi show conditions, to confirm the initial impression.
  
 Nighthawks and Elear (I cannot justify the Utopia cost) are on my list of interesting headphones - but the Nighthawks would seem to offer a great bargain if anyone can source them whilst they are currently on offer in the US.


----------



## halloweenman

The nighthawks are a very nice listen. Perhaps more speaker like than other headphones, I don't know, but I do know they sound nothing like when I sit in front of my speakers.


----------



## jlbrach

The LCD-4 with my Dave and my moon 430 is an experience,that is the best way to describe


----------



## GryphonGuy

jlbrach said:


> The LCD-4 with my Dave and my moon 430 is an experience,that is the best way to describe


 
  
 And reading between the lines, so to speak, you seem happy with your experience and that is a great way to describe listening to the DAVE. It is an experience and every day that experience exists as soon as you turn your system on. I have never listened to so much music and now with DAVE I am constantly noting that I have never heard my music collection presented with such realism and soundstage precision before I acquired DAVE. I have also never heard so many mistakes/retakes/cover-ups in recorded music before. Simply captivating experience my way too. Thanks Chord for DAVE; a great and enjoyable product!


----------



## Sabenza

@jlbrach, the problems mentioned at the Roon Support forum do resemble mine (except that I am using Audirvana).  The drop out or strange noise usually appears usually at beginning of tracks of DSD128 or higher.  Less so for 44.1kHz tracks.  I don't see a lot of this problem on this forum.  Is no one else here facing this issue?
  
 My Hugo TT does not have this problem at all.


----------



## rkt31

@halloweenman, I suspect you have positioned your speakers in straight firing position which generally always cause unwanted room interactions. try toeing in of speakers which will help in better integration of soundstage.


----------



## halloweenman

rkt31 said:


> @halloweenman, I suspect you have positioned your speakers in straight firing position which generally always cause unwanted room interactions. try toeing in of speakers which will help in better integration of soundstage.




The speakers are toed in to just behind the listening position. I've measured my room acoustics from listening position, the only real problem is a low frequency room resonance around 45hz.


----------



## rkt31

increase the toe in , you may get rid of the problem.


----------



## halloweenman

I have also tried pointing speakers to listening position but same low frequency room resonances still occur. I think it's more to do with room dimensions and construction materials rather than which direction the speakers are pointing. Standing bass waves are the issue, they have nowhere to go or they cannot be easily absorbed in the room.
  
 I have some RPG Modex Plates (Type 2) on order to hopefully rectify the room mode issue.


----------



## Nik

Which kind of floor do you have in the room? If the problem is there you can't do nothing....


----------



## astrostar59

halloweenman said:


> The speakers are toed in to just behind the listening position. I've measured my room acoustics from listening position, the only real problem is a low frequency room resonance around 45hz.


 

 You tried different mounting. It may help to put them on a plinth say 25cm high so off the floor. I have big speakers with 12 inch woofers and that did the trick, goes down to 20hz with no interaction with the room. My plinths are 4cm thick Granite and I have 5cm high rubber cones between the speaker base and the top of the plinths.
  
 Wood floor are bad for interaction. If you have wood, you need to use a combination of mass below the speaker (granite) and isolation from there speaker base and the support.


----------



## halloweenman

nik said:


> Which kind of floor do you have in the room? If the problem is there you can't do nothing....




Don't ask! Suspended timber. Why do you think low frequency broadband absorber panels won't work?


----------



## halloweenman

astrostar59 said:


> You tried different mounting. It may help to put them on a plinth say 25cm high so off the floor. I have big speakers with 12 inch woofers and that did the trick, goes down to 20hz with no interaction with the room. My plinths are 4cm thick Granite and I have 5cm high rubber cones between the speaker base and the top of the plinths.
> 
> Wood floor are bad for interaction. If you have wood, you need to use a combination of mass below the speaker (granite) and isolation from there speaker base and the support.




The speakers are well isolated from the floor by thick carpet and underlay, thick granite, spike shoes and spikes. I was able measure the high sound pressure levels in the problem areas of the room, corners and wall boundaries. If you stand in the middle of the room it measures flat.


----------



## Nik

I had the same problem with my wood floor... Hard to solve totally... tube traps or daad do not solve because they roll off even high frequency ... I found a good place for my speakers in the room...


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

With suspended wooden floors, using speakers that can be placed close to the wall will perform best simply because that's where the most resistance to floor vibration is. However, changing speakers is a very costly solution even if the desire was there. When one considers just how much we all spend on this hobby, taking up the carpet and floor and anquoring the middle of each joist to a metal brace linked to a small concrete footing below would probably be a more cost effective solution. 

......just planning my sales pitch for the Mrs.


----------



## Hubert H

There is a better way to deal with suspended wooden floors.
  
 I noticed that my CD skipped when I dropped something on the floor of my listening room. Also, the speakers moved a bit when I walked across the floor.
  
 So I put 4 holes in the floor, bought 4 pieces of 20mm A2 SS studding, a bunch of SS nuts and enlarged the holes on my home made stand. The stand now sits on the earth floor via a couple of wood blocks and doesn't touch the floor at all, no vibrations at all. I covered the holes with some felt coasters.
  

  
  
 I would have done the same for the speakers using slate beds but I couldn't get under the floor properly due to central brickwork. Therefore I bought a dozen suspended floor pedestals (like these - http://www.accessflooringshop.co.uk/categories/pedestals/ ) and supported the beams under the speakers. These changes have made a big difference.
  
 Obviously if the suspended wooden floor is not on the ground floor then there may be issues with this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 H.


----------



## miketlse

hubert h said:


> There is a better way to deal with suspended wooden floors.
> 
> I noticed that my CD skipped when I dropped something on the floor of my listening room. Also, the speakers moved a bit when I walked across the floor.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Things must have been bad originally if the CD skipped - I shudder to imagine the effect on a turntable....
 You don't mention any electrical earth problems, but if your stands now sit directly on the earth floor, presumably they could be also used electrical earths, if you feel that your domestic system has any power supply issues. Sorry I'm just thinking laterally of avenues to extend your DIY modding activities.


----------



## Hubert H

Mains already done, separate consumer unit with radial supplies to commando sockets, so no fuses. Shielded mains cable from outlets. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I was quite surprised when the CD skipped too but the original legs were carbon fibre and the whole rack was very rigid, rigidity not necessarily good on suspended floors though. I was going to design a suspension system but the hole in the floorboard solution was much simpler and far more effective.
  
 Mains, stand modifications and floor supports cost less than £400 and has made quite a difference.
  
 H.


----------



## lovethatsound

halloweenman said:


> Don't ask! Suspended timber. Why do you think low frequency broadband absorber panels won't work?


Just get your self a really good set of headphones,then all your problems will be over;you'll hear things that you will never hear with speakers,plus you won't upset the anybody else,just remember your audio heaven could be someone else's nightmare.


----------



## Christer

lovethatsound said:


> Just get your self a really good set of headphones,then all your problems will be over;you'll hear things that you will never hear with speakers,plus you won't upset the anybody else,just remember your audio heaven could be someone else's nightmare.


 

 After my first month of 6 this winter in the tropics and without my electrostatic speakers I am gradually adapting to listening via headphones again.
 But for the closest approach to the real thing nothing beats big accurate and transparent speakers.
 Luckily I have some live classical concerts to look forward to next week.
 Back home I live more than a half a mile from my nearest neighbour and only once a few summers ago, did she ask if I had recently  bought a  church  organ.
 It happened to be  during a hot summer and open windows.
 Headphones can be practical and very revealing of inner detail yes. But they  are nowhere near a powerful full range system in a good room as far as realism is concerned. And that is what HIFI is all about for me.


----------



## Toolman

Half a mile away from your nearest neighbors? For many of us audiophiles (who happened to be living in a condo), that's akin to be living in heaven


----------



## halloweenman

lovethatsound said:


> Just get your self a really good set of headphones,then all your problems will be over;you'll hear things that you will never hear with speakers,plus you won't upset the anybody else,just remember your audio heaven could be someone else's nightmare.




I've recently decided to upgrade my el8 to Nighthawks. Good as they are for headphones compared to my speakers, room warts and all, they sound like a toy.


----------



## 6RS

halloweenman said:


> The speakers are toed in to just behind the listening position. I've measured my room acoustics from listening position, the only real problem is a low frequency room resonance around 45hz.


 

 I use (modded) ATC20 SL with Job monos, and I love the sound. Regarding room acoustics, the sugar cubes from ASI helped, and also the Dirac iRC Impulse Response Correction that comes with Amarra Symphony. However, not so much if there are big issues with resonances in the bass.
Similar to you, I bought the Nighthawks, and I love them, however, I prefer the sound from the loudspeakers. I only have a Hugo though with Audiophilleo transport.


----------



## Christer

toolman said:


> Half a mile away from your nearest neighbors? For many of us audiophiles (who happened to be living in a condo), that's akin to be living in heaven


 

 Sort of, and the house comes with a nice  lake and forest view too. But  I wish my listening room would be  a bit bigger, so its not complete heaven.Both my speakers and amplification are capable of filling bigger rooms with very transparent low distortion realistic sound.
 But  I spend only six months a year there. The rest of the year I am out travelling in tropical Asia mainly and then I have to adapt to headphone listening and add as many live classical concerts as I can fit in.
 Next week I will hear Tchaikovsky´s Nutcracker ballet and a Schumann Concert in Singapore.
 Who am I to complain?


----------



## Toolman

christer said:


> Next week I will hear Tchaikovsky´s Nutcracker ballet and a Schumann Concert in Singapore.
> Who am I to complain?


 
  
 Nice...did you catch Yo-Yo Ma performing in Singapore a couple of weeks back? 

 ...about the only thing better than listening to a Dave


----------



## Mython

toolman said:


> christer said:
> 
> 
> > Next week I will hear Tchaikovsky´s Nutcracker ballet and a Schumann Concert in Singapore.
> ...


 
  
  
 Speaking of classical, these are quite nice - I really I wish I could hear them through DAVE and 2ch LS setup!:

  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN820UnMrEY
 http://youtu.be/S6yuR8efotI
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTAASV_Rjl0
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRQoMzXIZ3M
  
  
 Always loved Yo-Yo Ma's collaboration with Ennio Morricone
  
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBz2WrXtLlg
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TblFdF2lxAY
  
 and his rendition of 'Meditation', from the opera 'Thaïs':
  
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mPmN8gDjZI


----------



## miketlse

mython said:


> Speaking of classical, these are quite nice - I really I wish I could hear them through DAVE and 2ch LS setup!:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I do wish that Santa would give you a DAVE for Christmas, provided that he has left one under the tree for me first. LOL


----------



## maxh22

mython said:


> Speaking of classical, these are quite nice - I really I wish I could hear them through DAVE and 2ch LS setup!:


 
  
 You're in luck Mython! Looks like Christmas came early for you!


----------



## Jawed

Black DAVEs are hard to get. Looks like it'll be February before I get mine


----------



## ubs28

Strange. For me it made no difference if I wanted the black or silver one?


----------



## ubs28

Is it best to have HF Fil On or OFF? The sound is significantly different. I think I prefer to have it ON so far.


----------



## a1uc

Got my new cradle today


----------



## jelt2359

a1uc said:


> Got my new cradle today


 
 Does it sound better with the better isolation?


----------



## a1uc

I'm going to hook it back up in morning


----------



## Christer

toolman said:


> Nice...did you catch Yo-Yo Ma performing in Singapore a couple of weeks back?
> 
> ...about the only thing better than listening to a Dave


 

 No unfortunately not. I am still in Sri Lanka. But I have seen him play the Dvorak Concerto there before.
 And yes my memory of DAVE is that is was one of few DACs that gets quite close to the real thing.
 Shostakovich´s 10th 24/96 from Boston to name just one good recording, was basically like listening to live  mic feed via DAVE


----------



## x RELIC x

a1uc said:


> Got my new cradle today
> 
> ...




I love mine. Completes the look IMO.


----------



## a1uc

I wish it was it bit higher or the Dave was 
angled different , some of the 1/4 plugs are 
a bit tight against the surface


----------



## gnomen

halloweenman said:


> Hi gnomen, I'm not sure it is possible for any software to bypass OS X audio midi settings, it tells software such as Audirvana or Pure Music what sample rates and bit depths the DAC is cable of receiving. Pure Music is able to bypass iTunes\OS X Core Audio. When you did a bit perfect test it would have passed as your Weiss DAC probably has multiple bit depth options in audio midi setup that Pure Music is able to set depending upon the file being played. With Dave or any other Chord DAC this is not possible as OSX reads from the DAC that it can only accept a 32 bit depth.


 

 Hi Halloweenman.  AFAIK Pure Music gets the device info from low level OS APIs, as does AMS.  When using PM you can see that it runs separately from AMS as the latter usually remains configured for system sound (so system alarms come through your Mac speakers rather than your headphones or hi-fi with potentially deafening results).  The "32-bit" is an FP container designed by Apple for all audio handling; actual bit depth is 24 max for DACs and is in integer format.  I cannot comment further as it is years since I tried Audirvana, but I would expect other audio software to work in a similar way.  BTW you can check what I am saying by downloading PM for free for the trial period.  If you do that I would be interested to hear whether you notice any SQ difference as well.
  
 Cheers
  
 PS I am enjoying my SLIC Innovations XLR interconnects; the Chord Signatures have not shown up yet so unable to run a complete comparison so far.


----------



## Mython

maxh22 said:


> mython said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking of classical, these are quite nice - I really I wish I could hear them through DAVE and 2ch LS setup!:
> ...


 
  
  
  
 Joking aside, I can't help thinking that headphone users of DAVE may be missing out on a good chunk of its magic.
  
 Rather than restate why, it was (largely) covered in this recent post:
  


christer said:


> lovethatsound said:
> 
> 
> > Just get your self a really good set of headphones,then all your problems will be over;you'll hear things that you will never hear with speakers,plus you won't upset the anybody else,just remember your audio heaven could be someone else's nightmare.
> ...


 
  
  
 There are a good number of recordings that somehow just present themselves via speakers so much better than they do via headphones, and DAVE's spatial abilities may compound that even further.
  
 This is not to say that I dislike headphones - just that they have their limitations, spatially (and, in my personal opinion, viscerally) speaking.


----------



## halloweenman

gnomen said:


> Hi Halloweenman.  AFAIK Pure Music gets the device info from low level OS APIs, as does AMS.  When using PM you can see that it runs separately from AMS as the latter usually remains configured for system sound (so system alarms come through your Mac speakers rather than your headphones or hi-fi with potentially deafening results).  The "32-bit" is an FP container designed by Apple for all audio handling; actual bit depth is 24 max for DACs and is in integer format.  I cannot comment further as it is years since I tried Audirvana, but I would expect other audio software to work in a similar way.  BTW you can check what I am saying by downloading PM for free for the trial period.  If you do that I would be interested to hear whether you notice any SQ difference as well.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> PS I am enjoying my SLIC Innovations XLR interconnects; the Chord Signatures have not shown up yet so unable to run a complete comparison so far.




Thanks Gnomen I'll give pure music a try and let you know. I'm not convinced I'm afraid as I suspect when AMS talks to a Chord DAC via the APIs you mention the information it gets back from the Chord DAC is that it can only accept a 32 bit depth hence why it only displays this option. I suspect PM and Audirvana get the same info if they do the same.


----------



## Crgreen

I see the DAVE won the Hi-Fi World USB DAC of the year, and the Hi-Fi + DAC of the year awards. Must be very gratifying for Rob.

In Hi-Fi + the dCS Vivaldi 2.0 won Network player of the year, which although it does that, is a slightly odd way of describing the whole 75 grand collection of boxes.


----------



## STR-1

str-1 said:


> Following up on some earlier recommendations for the Wireworld Silver Electra 7 power cord, I've currently got on loan a one meter length of this cord to try out with the DAVE (they didn't have the one and a half meter I asked for, and I now think I probably need two meters).  It was new out of its case but I've managed to give it about 50 hours run-in.  Straight out of the case, my first impression listening with the HE1000 v.1 (Silver Dragon) and the Utopia was that the sound was more detailed, cleaner and much much brighter (far too bright).  The Silver Dragon on my HE1000 and using the LPS-1 powered microRendu already hinted at a little brightness in my system but the Silver Electra took it right over the edge.  Fifty hours in and some of that brightness has gone but some still remains.  I wonder, could I expect to hear much difference with a longer length of cord and/or with a Furutech plug (the cord I have has a standard UK 3-pin plug)?  Thanks.



Sadly, the Silver Electra 7 is not working out in my system and will have to go back. I've given it over 150 hours run-in and while there is much to like about it with the DAVE - greater distortion-free clarity, transparency, separation etc - the problem is that it accentuates the slight brightness of the microRendu, and there are too many instances when this detracts from my enjoyment of the music. I should say that I have been doing most of my listening with the Focal Utopia, which with stock cable is not very forgiving of this kind of thing (less so than my HE1000). It's a shame as I think the Silver Electra is reasonably priced and in addition to its audio strengths it does wonders for the picture on my plasma tv.


----------



## izzard1982

str-1 said:


> Sadly, the Silver Electra 7 is not working out in my system and will have to go back. I've given it over 150 hours run-in and while there is much to like about it with the DAVE - greater distortion-free clarity, transparency, separation etc - the problem is that it accentuates the slight brightness of the microRendu, and there are too many instances when this detracts from my enjoyment of the music. I should say that I have been doing most of my listening with the Focal Utopia, which with stock cable is not very forgiving of this kind of thing (less so than my HE1000). It's a shame as I think the Silver Electra is reasonably priced and in addition to its audio strengths it does wonders for the picture on my plasma tv.


 
 Regarding the brightness of the microRendu, I have been feeling the same since I added the Uptone LPS-1 into the system, although it's a step up from the Meanwell, it feels like adding it moved the balance upward a little bit, the result is more HF and less bass (although tighter) and mid-bass. I have been trying to find ways to fix this by, for instance, replacing the Utopia stock cable with Dana Reference or replacing the LPS-1 with Sonore Signature Power Supply, but not sure where to start. It would be helpful if others can chime in.


----------



## jlbrach

a1uc said:


> I wish it was it bit higher or the Dave was
> angled different , some of the 1/4 plugs are
> a bit tight against the surface


 
 I suspect those who use the Dave with the stand are using it as a DAC for a speaker system...I know myself I am using my Dave with HP's and without a stand on top of my Moon Neo 430....as a result,no issues with cables


----------



## STR-1

izzard1982 said:


> Regarding the brightness of the microRendu, I have been feeling the same since I added the Uptone LPS-1 into the system, although it's a step up from the Meanwell, it feels like adding it moved the balance upward a little bit, the result is more HF and less bass (although tighter) and mid-bass. I have been trying to find ways to fix this by, for instance, replacing the Utopia stock cable with Dana Reference or replacing the LPS-1 with Sonore Signature Power Supply, but not sure where to start. It would be helpful if others can chime in.



If you are running with the stock power lead that comes with the LPS-1, I would recommend upgrading to the Sonore DC-4 cable, which, while a little expensive, adds more punch, weight and authority to the sound (still a little bright). As for the Utopia, I've got a DHC Prion coming in a week or so, along with adapters that among other things will allow me to use my HD800-terminated Black Dragon with that headphone. I was thinking about the Dana cable but couldn't make my mind up quickly enough to catch last weekend's discount.


----------



## a1uc

I had no issue either till now , one would think this issue would of been 
noticed when the stand was be designed. Oh well what 
does one expect for a couple grand stand I will figure something out


----------



## GeneralSensible

str-1 said:


> Sadly, the Silver Electra 7 is not working out in my system and will have to go back. I've given it over 150 hours run-in and while there is much to like about it with the DAVE - greater distortion-free clarity, transparency, separation etc - the problem is that it accentuates the slight brightness of the microRendu, and there are too many instances when this detracts from my enjoyment of the music. I should say that I have been doing most of my listening with the Focal Utopia, which with stock cable is not very forgiving of this kind of thing (less so than my HE1000). It's a shame as I think the Silver Electra is reasonably priced and in addition to its audio strengths it does wonders for the picture on my plasma tv.


 
  
 Two questions,
  
 Did your demo cable got the so-called "CONNECTOR UPGRADE"? This is a serious but not too expensive upgrade which changes the connector to one with "silver-clad copper alloy contacts" (I do not understand why this upgrade is not standard, because it really makes a difference).
  
 Did you have the opportunity to test longer cable lengths? Too short cable lengths can suffer quite a lot from hf and rf distortion (cell phones, WLAN). The theoretical explanation for this should be discussed on another forum and there is a lot to be found about this on many physics sites. For me there is an audible difference between 1m and 2m power cables, especially in harshness and "image". Because of this I normally do not use power cables shorter than 2m.


----------



## STR-1

generalsensible said:


> Two questions,
> 
> Did your demo cable got the so-called "CONNECTOR UPGRADE"? This is a serious but not too expensive upgrade which changes the connector to one with "silver-clad copper alloy contacts" (I do not understand why this upgrade is not standard, because it really makes a difference).
> 
> Did you have the opportunity to test longer cable lengths? Too short cable lengths can suffer quite a lot from hf and rf distortion (cell phones, WLAN). The theoretical explanation for this should be discussed on another forum and there is a lot to be found about this on many physics sites. For me there is an audible difference between 1m and 2m power cables, especially in harshness and "image". Because of this I normally do not use power cables shorter than 2m.



The cable came with a standard 3-pin UK plug. The length of cable I have, at one meter, is too short. I would need two meters. The UK distributor told me that a two-meter length should sound better but did not elaborate.


----------



## Jawed

a1uc said:


> I had no issue either till now , one would think this issue would of been
> noticed when the stand was be designed. Oh well what
> does one expect for a couple grand stand I will figure something out



Can you show a picture of the problem?


----------



## GeneralSensible

str-1 said:


> The cable came with a standard 3-pin UK plug. The length of cable I have, at one meter, is too short. I would need two meters. The UK distributor told me that a two-meter length should sound better but did not elaborate.


 
 Maybe you can ask the distributor if it is possible to do a home test with the other connector and the 2m length. I think it is worth a try because this could address the brightness issue you were talking about. I truly do recognize your findings about transparency etc. but without the brightness issues. The other connector and especially the longer cable length may be the solution for this.


----------



## miketlse

a1uc said:


> I had no issue either till now , one would think this issue would of been
> noticed when the stand was be designed. Oh well what
> does one expect for a couple grand stand I will figure something out


 
  
 Can you place a 'spacer' of some sort under each 'foot', to raise everything up maybe half an inch?


----------



## STR-1

generalsensible said:


> Maybe you can ask the distributor if it is possible to do a home test with the other connector and the 2m length. I think it is worth a try because this could address the brightness issue you were talking about. I truly do recognize your findings about transparency etc. but without the brightness issues. The other connector and especially the longer cable length may be the solution for this.



Thanks. I'll give it a go. As I said, I found a lot to like about this cable and I want to give it a fair chance. The microRendu is a fussy little so and so.


----------



## jlbrach

miketlse said:


> Can you place a 'spacer' of some sort under each 'foot', to raise everything up maybe half an inch?


 
 Kind of defeats the whole purpose of paying 2500 dollars for a stand for the Dave doesnt it?Particularly since some people maintain the stand provides additional isoloation which would obviously be mitigated by placing something beneath the legs


----------



## Deftone

maxh22 said:


> You're in luck Mython! Looks like Christmas came early for you!




Haha this is excellent


----------



## lojay

izzard1982 said:


> Regarding the brightness of the microRendu, I have been feeling the same since I added the Uptone LPS-1 into the system, although it's a step up from the Meanwell, it feels like adding it moved the balance upward a little bit, the result is more HF and less bass (although tighter) and mid-bass. I have been trying to find ways to fix this by, for instance, replacing the Utopia stock cable with Dana Reference or replacing the LPS-1 with Sonore Signature Power Supply, but not sure where to start. It would be helpful if others can chime in.




Are you using the hard USB connector between the microrendu and DAVE? The hardness and brightness disappeared once I replaced that with the short Curious USB recent link cable. Made a huge difference. FYI I am also using the LPS-1.


----------



## izzard1982

lojay said:


> Are you using the hard USB connector between the microrendu and DAVE? The hardness and brightness disappeared once I replaced that with the short Curious USB recent link cable. Made a huge difference. FYI I am also using the LPS-1.


 
 I'm using a 1 meter Audience USB cable, I have learnt from the time when I had Regen that the hard connector sounded much worse than a decent USB cable.


----------



## izzard1982

str-1 said:


> If you are running with the stock power lead that comes with the LPS-1, I would recommend upgrading to the Sonore DC-4 cable, which, while a little expensive, adds more punch, weight and authority to the sound (still a little bright). As for the Utopia, I've got a DHC Prion coming in a week or so, along with adapters that among other things will allow me to use my HD800-terminated Black Dragon with that headphone. I was thinking about the Dana cable but couldn't make my mind up quickly enough to catch last weekend's discount.


 
 I will try the Sonore DC-4 and report back. Is there any other option out there?


----------



## micesol@yahoo.co

The problem with the race car analogy Roy is that I suspect you enjoyed just as much as your friend racing around the track. I wonder if a better analogy might be to food:
 Mojo=Big Mac
 Hugo=Sizzler
 Dave=The French Laundry
 In this analogy, we enjoy music with differing levels of engagement with the Dave involving us in the music to a degree much greater than either the Mojo or Hugo.
 Just my 2 cents.
 Michael Smith


----------



## STR-1

izzard1982 said:


> I'm using a 1 meter Audience USB cable, I have learnt from the time when I had Regen that the hard connector sounded much worse than a decent USB cable.



I'm using the Sonore/Cardas hard adapter, which is better than the one supplied with the mRendu, but I might try the Curious link cable.


----------



## ubs28

I have the Focal Utopia underway which should arrive soon hopefully. Is that the best headphone for the Chord Dave? Or do you guys think a different headphone is better for the Chord Dave?


----------



## x RELIC x

ubs28 said:


> I have the Focal Utopia underway which should arrive soon hopefully. Is that the best headphone for the Chord Dave? Or do you guys think a different headphone is better for the Chord Dave?




It really depends on what you're looking for. The Utopia is _very_ resolving and at the same time _very_ punchy and dynamic. There's some good weight on the bottom end as well. At this level of performance individual preferences play a huge part in the definition of 'best' and 'better'. If you define 'best' as having a huge soundstage, then no, the Utopia is not the 'best'. Some may call the Abyss or HE1000 the best with the DAVE for the qualities they bring. Understand also that the Utopia is relatively easy to drive so there's absolutely no concern of drive ability from the DAVE.


----------



## miketlse

ubs28 said:


> I have the Focal Utopia underway which should arrive soon hopefully. Is that the best headphone for the Chord Dave? Or do you guys think a different headphone is better for the Chord Dave?


 
  
 Just like @x RELIC x has said,
  
 When arriving at a conclusion that any item (in this case headphones) is better than another, or the best in a group of similar items, people need to state what criteria the items have been judged against.
  
 The Utopia is getting very good reviews from Chord DAC users (and I would love to demo a pair, just as I would love to demo a DAVE), but if someone else's criteria included 'must cost less that $150', then the Utopia would rank as a poor headphone for them.


----------



## phonyx

I have HE1000 with my TT direct driving them which sound fantastic, and would love to A/B the Utopias!
  
 Someone here will know - @Rob Watts has said that the DAVE isn't a head-amp as such but a DAC with an output stage that allows the headphones to 'tap into' the data stream which is at a high enough level thereby negating the need for a typical additional amplifier gain stage. Is the Hugo TT the same design or does it have a headphones amp gain stage within it?


----------



## x RELIC x

phonyx said:


> I have HE1000 with my TT direct driving them which sound fantastic, and would love to A/B the Utopias!
> 
> Someone here will know - @Rob Watts
> has said that the DAVE isn't a head-amp as such but a DAC with an output stage that allows the headphones to 'tap into' the data stream which is at a high enough level thereby negating the need for a typical additional amplifier gain stage. Is the Hugo TT the same design or does it have a headphones amp gain stage within it?




All of Chord's DACs are like the DAVE, no seperate headphone amp, from the Mojo on up to the DAVE. Rob can do this because of the performance of the DACs and he prefers it for the sake of transparency.


----------



## ubs28

x relic x said:


> It really depends on what you're looking for. The Utopia is _very_ resolving and at the same time _very_ punchy and dynamic. There's some good weight on the bottom end as well. At this level of performance individual preferences play a huge part in the definition of 'best' and 'better'. If you define 'best' as having a huge soundstage, then no, the Utopia is not the 'best'. Some may call the Abyss or HE1000 the best with the DAVE for the qualities they bring. Understand also that the Utopia is relatively easy to drive so there's absolutely no concern of drive ability from the DAVE.




I'm generally interested in getting as close as possible to the actual performance like it was recorded. I also like a good soundstage.

The biggest weakness I noticed on the HD 800 S is sub bass extension when comparing it to headphones like the HE-1000. So the next headphone should have that issue addressed. I haven't heard the Utopia yet but according to reviews the Utopia covers this area nicely.

The biggest concern for me regarding the Utopia is whether or not the soundstage will statisfy me


----------



## miketlse

ubs28 said:


> I'm generally interested in getting as close as possible to the actual performance like it was recorded. I also like a good soundstage.


 
  
 Sadly I think you will struggle to achieve that for most recordings, with all dacs and headphones.
  
 By that I mean that for most studio recordings, with all the electronic instruments and vocals being recorded separately on different tracks, and occasionally some being recorded separately on different days - what you the listener perceives as the soundstage, can bear little or no resemblence to how the music was originally recorded. For such music, the soundstage is a fictitious entity, created by the sound engineers skill at editing, mixing etc, to create a synthetic soundstage intended to deceive the listener into believing they are listening to a 'real' performance.
  
 In contrast for live recordings of vocals and/or acoustic instruments, the sound engineer is still normally using multiple recorded tracks, especially for a large orchestra, but at least everything was recorded at the same time. The editing, mixing etc, still creates a synthetic soundstage, but it will be less synthetic than for a studio recording.
  
 Probably you (or any member of this thread) have the greatest chance of success if your criterion becomes 'generally interested in getting as close as possible to the actual performance as it was intended to be heard'.


----------



## Mython

I totally agree about mixes being contrived approximations, much of the time. That applies to decades-old recordings and a great many modern-day recordings.
  
 www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/5700#post_13007102
  
 The legitimacy of the following (admittedly, old) mix is questionable, but still enjoyable www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9J9FlarNOA
  
  
 I reckon there will always be a division, in the music industry, between those who actually care about realism of the recordings they are making, and those who either don't give two hoots, or who _actively_ pursue artificial mixes out of preference.
  
  
 I will always prefer greater realism, in the music I purchase, during my lifetime.
  
 www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MiU_RWxwp4
  
 www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6_B1AB9nu8
  
  
 For legitimately-recorded live acoustic digital recordings, Davina ADC should improve the spatial accuracy, compounded by DAVE's abilities at the DAC end of the chain.
  
 There's a whole heap of people eager to hear what improvements Davina ADC may bring, and I'm definitely one of them!


----------



## STR-1

str-1 said:


> I'm using the Sonore/Cardas hard adapter, which is better than the one supplied with the mRendu, but I might try the Curious link cable.



Actually, I'm now re-evaluating that. With LPS-1 and stock power lead it was clear to me that the Sonore/Cardas hardadapter was better than the stock adapter in my system. But now that I have upgraded to the DC-4 power lead (which is definitely better than stock) the best synergy might now be back with the stock adapter. I've now ordered the Curious link cable.


----------



## Nik

Just to tell you my two cents...
  
 ...two kings of headphones like the Abyss and Utopia with the same Dave directly connected, my question is:
 the advantage of the more sensitive Utopia will be so good to give at this cans the first place?
 This is for me the question... 
  
 Best!
 Nik


----------



## miketlse

nik said:


> Just to tell you my two cents...
> 
> ...two kings of headphones like the Abyss and Utopia with the same Dave directly connected, my question is:
> the advantage of the more sensitive Utopia will be so good to give at this cans the first place?
> ...


 
 see posts #5921 and #5922.
  
 You have not indicated which criteria we should propose the Utopia to be the 'best' at.


----------



## Nik

The best they can do, all his potential qualities... Not the best for me or for you...


----------



## 7ryder

evolvist said:


> So, I auditioned the DAVE at my home about 3 weeks later, and upon first listen, this was a totally different DAC. I then got a bunch of other big names DACs into my home at the same time, and it's just that simple: the DAVE won out as the best DAC I had ever heard.


 
  
 I'm curious, which "big name DACs" did you compare to DAVE?  Thanks.
  
 ChrisG


----------



## a1uc

jlbrach said:


> Kind of defeats the whole purpose of paying 2500 dollars for a stand for the Dave doesnt it?Particularly since some people maintain the stand provides additional isoloation which would obviously be mitigated by placing something beneath the legs


 
  


jlbrach said:


> Kind of defeats the whole purpose of paying 2500 dollars for a stand for the Dave doesnt it?Particularly since some people maintain the stand provides additional isoloation which would obviously be mitigated by placing something beneath the legs


 

 Defeats the purpose for sure , I will figure out a fix not the end of the world . All it would of took is the legs being 1/4' higher .
 I just figured for the cost I would not have to had deal with this issue . Otherwise it sure is a sweet looking add on


----------



## Toolman

The angle tilt made me think twice about the cradle since most of my cables are terminated with balanced XLR so I will have additional short adapter from XLR --> 1/4" plug, and it just won't work with the cradle.

 I know the cradle designed for the Chord system rack so that tilt works but not when you are using them with Dave on it's own


----------



## EVOLVIST

7ryder said:


> I'm curious, which "big name DACs" did you compare to DAVE?  Thanks.
> 
> ChrisG




The Schitt Yggy, Metrum Pavane, Bricasti M1 SE, Berekely Alpha Reference 2 and the dCS Vivaldi.


----------



## Jawed

a1uc said:


> Defeats the purpose for sure , I will figure out a fix not the end of the world . All it would of took is the legs being 1/4' higher .



Hmm, so it seems there's not an adjustment mechanism built in to the legs.


----------



## Mojo ideas

a1uc said:


> I wish it was it bit higher or the Dave was
> angled different , some of the 1/4 plugs are
> a bit tight against the surface


We have three sizes of the legs they are all the same price for simplicity.


----------



## a1uc

This was not offered to me as an option , what are the
lengths offered? and what are my options at this point ?


----------



## jlbrach

I love my Moon Neo 430 and have been using it with my Dave and LCD-4...up until now I have been using my Utopia straight out of the Dave but found it to be a bit bright and with a narrow soundstage...I recently have been experimenting with the 430 along with my Utopia and the results have thus far been very nice.The soundstage opens up,the bass is a bit deeper and it is not quite so bright.Yes,I recognize that there is going to be a slight loss of transparency and yes i understand that the 430 imparts a bit of its own sound but the combination is an improvement to my ears and quite stunning actually!


----------



## ubs28

I suppose you tried HF FILT ON on the Chord Dave already to reduce some of the brightness?


----------



## jlbrach

No,I have not as yet tried the fliter


----------



## GryphonGuy

I cannot perceive a difference in DAVE's presentation of music with the HF Filter on or off. I leave it ON.


----------



## ubs28

With my ears I notice a reduction in brightness with the HD 800 S. It could also depend on the headphone used whether a difference is noticeable or not.


----------



## romaz

Quote:


beolab said:


> It is like throw a grilled chicken through a jet engine at full power, so you should not hear any difference or with a highly expensive power cable in my book, but i use both above mentioned things for the looks, and i like to connect my products with the correct polarity nevertheless, but i should sleep very well without the fancy power cable, ( that does nothing) it is our mind and placebo to think it makes a differentiation because it thicker and heavy , our mind pre set itself to listen to the full bodied sound, with darker background with very fine crisp resolution automatically, but the DAVE sounds exactly the same as with a descent shielded "cheapo" cable also.
> 
> I have tested this very carefully so i am sorry guys, but you have tricked yourself to think you hear a difference.
> 
> ...


  
 I both agree and disagree with you on this one, Fredrik.  One of the hallmarks of a good electronic component is that it has a high PSRR (power supply rejection ratio) and the higher this value, the greater the ability that component has to not just reject the noise created by its power supply but also the noise that might be present in the mains line.  DAVE obviously has a very high PSRR because as I have traveled with my DAVE, whether I plug it straight into the noisy receptacle of my hotel room or at an audio show venue, it always sounds clean with the blackest of backgrounds even when used with a generic power chord.  I suspect this is what you mean when you say that you don't need a fancy power chord with the DAVE for it to sound good and I completely agree.  I would also agree that with many chords I have tried with the DAVE, you can't hear a difference and again, this probably has to do with its high PSRR.  At the same time, if you recall, I did a comparison of various power chords with my DAVE nearly 7 months ago and 3 chords in particular stood out.  The differences weren't major but they were discernible even with blind testing.  At the time, I thought it had to do with their ability to filter noise but I have since changed my position on this.  Here is that post from 7 months ago:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/2745
  
 Quote:



evolvist said:


> It really goes to prove that one doesn't have to spend an arm and a leg to get the most out of DAVE, and because of this, it makes it more apparent that Rob's design is nearly flawless in its independence of peripherals. Sure, experimenting is cool, and yes there are benefits that one can get from USB cables, power cords, AC regenerators, etc., but the gap is not as large as I was originally reading from others.


 
  
 I agree with you, Nick.  DAVE by itself sounds wonderful and you don't have to do much for it to sound wonderful.  When people describe what they hear with different USB cables, power chords, etc., it's challenging to know how accurate their descriptors are since one person's "great" might be another person's "mediocre" and because audio is an emotional hobby, I'm sure we are all guilty of hyperbole every once in a while.  Obviously, when there is a thread that consists of thousands of comments about how great a certain DAC is, it's probably natural to believe that this DAC should be able to walk on water and so this is a problem the DAVE has -- expectations with it are sometimes unrealistically high.  Finally, there is also the issue of accommodation.  I recall when you first got your DAVE, you also believed it was an extremely bright DAC and during your initial comparison of it against the Berkeley Reference 2, you weren't so impressed.  When the DAVE's presentation is different from anything you've previously heard, it can take awhile to accommodate to it.  Brain burn-in is real.
  
 While I agree that the intelligent design that went into the DAVE is extraordinary, there are ways to get much more from the DAVE.  Some of these methods are inexpensive and unfortunately, some of these methods are not.  As with all things, YMMV.  My intention here is to show that the DAVE harbors even more potential than many people believe.
  



evolvist said:


> +10 for buying the WireWorld Silver Electra 7 power cord. I auditioned many, many power cords, and I even dumped the Shunyata and High Fidelity Cables (even the Ultimate) for the bliss I received from the Silver Electra 7. I, too, tried the Platinum, but it just couldn't compete.


 
  Quote:


str-1 said:


> Sadly, the Silver Electra 7 is not working out in my system and will have to go back.


  

 I think it's clear that what works for one person doesn't work for all.  If you ask a person what the most important characteristic of a good audio system should be, I'm sure you'll get a variety of responses ranging from resolution to transparency to clarity to dynamics and so on.  While there is no wrong answer, I believe the most important characteristic should be balance and izzard's recent comments illustrate this very well:
  
 Quote:


izzard1982 said:


> Regarding the brightness of the microRendu, I have been feeling the same since I added the Uptone LPS-1 into the system, although it's a step up from the Meanwell, it feels like adding it moved the balance upward a little bit, the result is more HF and less bass (although tighter) and mid-bass. I have been trying to find ways to fix this by, for instance, replacing the Utopia stock cable with Dana Reference or replacing the LPS-1 with Sonore Signature Power Supply, but not sure where to start. It would be helpful if others can chime in.


  
 As many of us know, assembling the best-reviewed music server, DAC, amplifier and speakers/headphones doesn't always result in a balanced system.  System synergy is difficult to figure out and can take a very long time to get right.  While there are our personal preferences to consider, it's quite possible that our personal preferences might also change in time as the advancement of technology provides us more and more options and so that holy grail that we each seek will likely always be a moving target. 
  
 If there is one component that each of us must get right, I believe we would all agree that it is the transducer (headphone or speakers).  This is the final interface between our audio system and our ears and has the most say in terms of what we hear.  These were my concluding statements for the article I wrote for Inner Fidelity last year and I continue to believe them to be true today:
  
*Final Thoughts*
 I won't soon forget this experience as it reaffirmed a few headphone setup principles for me:

Find the headphone that you love first, everything else comes second.
Equipment synergy cannot be overstated. Learn the strengths and weaknesses of your headphone and find an amp (and DAC) that optimizes its strengths and minimizes its weaknesses.
You don't have to spend a lot of money to get great sound. The headphones, amps, DACs and players being produced today are more consistently of a high standard and the best technologies of just a few years ago have trickled down to even entry level gear. 
 
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/big-sound-2015-participant-report-roy-romaz#podX0BWm5RLUAH2z.99
  
 Now, here is what I find interesting.  If we all attended an acoustical unamplified concert, regardless of what we thought about the quality of the performance or whether we cared for that genre or not, I'm sure that we would be unanimous in our assessment that the sound we heard was natural, clear and organic sounding.  How could it not be?  Yet, when we buy headphones (or speakers), we each gravitate towards different headphones with different sound characteristics as if one headphone sounded better than another.  Then we each proceed with spending boatloads of money trying to get these different sounding headphones to all sound the same and that is to sound as real as possible.  This is, of course, the audiophile dilemma -- with so many options and so many opinions, what's the best way to get from point A to point B?  Yes, it helps to find a set of headphones or speakers that speak to your heart and to find a DAC that speaks to your mind but my opinion is that the foundation of any good system is always going to be good power and this includes the DAVE.
  
 I am not an electrical engineer, electrician, cable maker or physicist and so feel free to be skeptical of what I say but I have been speaking to many of these types of people lately and I have been doing a lot of listening and comparing and here is what I have found.  While DAVE is largely immune to noise in the line, it is not immune to line resistance.  In other words, you can put a choke hold on the DAVE and prevent it from sounding its best.  While I can't say for sure that this is true in every case, those who suggest their DAVE doesn't sound much better than their Mojo or other DAC, look at your power.
  
 I have heard many arguments suggest that of all the miles of power cabling from your utility company to your audio equipment, why should the final 6 feet of cabling that connects your components to your wall make much difference?  Of course, I believe that the best a mains cable can do is get out of the way and that the best cable is no cable at all but practically speaking, there must always be some length of cable to connect your component to the wall followed by another length of cable that connects your wall receptacle to your main panel and then another length of cable that connects your main panel to your utility company's closest transformer and so on.  While you can't do much about the cabling that connects your main panel to your utility company's transformer, most of us can do something about the cabling in our homes.  I do also believe that the lengths of cabling that are closest to your equipment have the greatest potential to help as well as hinder your system.
  
 When looking at your cabling that goes from DAVE to the wall, the mantra should be "help if you can but at the very least, don't get in the way."  When you buy a diamond, there are four characteristics we look for that will justify its price (cut, color, clarity and carat weight -- the four Cs) and worldwide, there's very little debate about this.  In this sense, it's much easier to buy a diamond than it is a power chord.  With power chords, there are no set standards that justify price and so it can get quite confusing but there are some common sense principles to keep in mind that may have bearing with the DAVE:
  
 1)  Conductor:  This can range from tin to iron, brass, gold, copper, silver and graphene (the fastest electrical conductor known to man).  Here are the relative conductivity of various conductors:
  

 Material IACS (International Annealed Copper Standard)
 Ranking
 Metal
 % Conductivity*
 1
 Silver (Pure)
 105%
 2
 Copper
 100%
 3
 Gold (Pure)
 70%
 4
 Aluminum
 61%
 5
 Brass
 28%
 6
 Zinc
 27%
 7
 Nickel
 22%
 8
 Iron (Pure)
 17%
 9
 Tin
 15%
 10
 Phosphor Bronze
 15%
 11
 Steel (Stainless included)
 3-15%
 12
 Lead (Pure)
 7%
 13
 Nickel Aluminum Bronze
 7%

  
 Graphene isn't listed but it is claimed to have a conductivity 100x of copper.  Note that silver is 5% more conductive than copper and that purity matters.  UP-OCC grade purity is the purest form of silver or copper that is commercially available (guaranteed to be 99.99997% pure).  Unfortunately, silver is much more expensive than copper and UP-OCC grade is much more expensive than standard OFC (oxygen-free copper).  What does increased conductivity get you?  Decreased line resistance.
  
 2)  Conductor gauge:  Most basic computers come with 18g power chords.  Audiophile power chords for low power digital components seem to range from 12-16 gauge while chords designed for high current devices like amplifiers and power distributors are as large as 6 gauge.  What happens as wire gauge gets bigger?  Once again, line resistance goes down and large conductor gauge is especially important for the conduction of lower frequencies.  
  
 3)  Dielectric:  This is an area of controversy and there isn't consensus on what is real and what is hype.  In short, dielectrics are designed to function as insulators against other conductors within a cable but also against its outer environment.  One premise held is that the only perfect dielectric is a vacuum (negative air pressure) and that any other material used as a dielectric will have some negative impact on SQ due to skin effect.  With alternating currents running through a conductor, it has been said that lower frequencies (bass) travel at the inner most core of a conductor while also occupying the largest cross section of a conductor as it travels down that conductor.  This is the premise on why large conductors are so important for bass transmission.  The higher frequencies (midrange and treble) travel toward the outer edges of the conductor.  With the perfect cable where you have a conductor that is highly conductive and a dielectric that has zero impact, then the high and low frequencies arrive at their destination at exactly the same time (meaning perfect timing).  Because it is the highest frequencies that travel at the outer edges of a conductor, the dielectric used will have impact on these higher frequencies potentially resulting in treble and even midrange smearing but also timing issues.  This is often where cable companies get creative and why some cables can cost so much.
  
 Here are examples of the dielectric constants of various materials:
  
 Air (vacuum) 1.0
 Cotton 1.3
 Wood 1.4
 Teflon (PTFE) 2.1
 Polypropylene 2.2
 Kevlar 3.5
 Neoprene 4.0
 Distilled water 34
  
 Teflon and polypropylene are the most commonly used dielectrics because of their durability and heat resistance.  Certain manufacturers have gone to cotton as a primary dielectric (i.e. DHC, Zenwave) and I believe their results speak for themselves.  Once again, what is the impact of the dielectric on the conductor that supposedly leads to this purported smearing?  It has to do with the build-up of an opposing electrical charge but ultimately, this is once again a form of line resistance.
  
 There are other factors like cable geometry, solid-core vs stranded wire and litz configuration which I won't get into here but the strategy for their use is to reduce line resistance.
  
 Finally, there is shielding.  All cables are shielded but some shields are especially designed to repel or mitigate EMI and this is the concept behind cables designed for "digital" gear with the idea that it is our digital gear that is most sensitive to EMI.  While important for certain components, it has been my observation that well-made components with high PSRR have less need for exotic shielding and this includes the DAVE.
  
 So which types of cables make the most difference with the DAVE?  While DAVE consumes less than 20 watts and can sound decent connected to a generic 18g mains cable, my experience suggests it can sound so much better when it has instantaneous access to the exact amounts of current it needs at exactly the right times even if we are talking about something as miniscule as a tenth of an amp.  Any cable can deliver an electrical impulse but can it deliver those impulses rapidly and in rapid succession (microseconds apart)?  If a DC power supply has this level of responsiveness, it is important that the AC supply feeding it has this level of responsiveness also.  This is important during macrodynamic passages such as when the cannon goes off in Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture but also in microdynamic passages such as the fine reverberations of an acoustical guitar as it is gently strummed or the sharp staccato of a banjo as it is plucked.  
  
 This is where silver cables are superior to copper and where UP-OCC grade is superior to standard OFC.  They are simply more responsive.  There are now cables (Synergistic Research and Cerious Technologies) that incorporate graphene and while I have not heard these cables, reports from others have been very positive.  The problem with silver cables (especially UP-OCC grade) is they are prohibitively expensive and so often, a manufacturer will either create a silver-plated copper cable (Wireworld Silver Electra 7) or a smaller gauge silver cable (Wireworld Platinum Electra 7 is 12 gauge).  While I have not heard the Silver Electra 7 with the DAVE, I have no doubt people are hearing a difference with it.  In my power chord comparison that I did in May, one of the three cables that stood out was the Challenger AE15, a cable similarly made of silver-plated copper.  
  
 The problem with silver-plated copper cables is that these are hard to get right.  While the dielectic used tends to slow down the higher frequencies, plating the outer edge of the cable with silver doesn't always result in proper compensation and so what you can get is a cable that overemphasizes the treble.  While it is this emphasis that can result in a more energetic presentation that is desirable for some, it can be equated as an annoying brightness by others.
  
 With the Platinum Electra 7, while I have not heard it, I suspect I would much prefer it to the Silver Electra.  It probably won't have the immediate wow factor of the Silver Electra but it will likely provide a more balanced, more relaxed and better-resolved sound.  While silver has the reputation of sounding bright compared to copper, properly done silver cables are not bright at all.  Those of you who own a DHC Silver Complement, Silver Spore or Prion know exactly what I am talking about.  Peter uses only UP-OCC grade silver in a litz configuration with a cotton primary dielectric and these cables are extremely smooth and relaxed in their character while also being highly resolving.
  
 Is there a good alternative to silver cabling?  Yes, large gauge copper.  If you look at the conductivity chart above, notice that silver is only 5% more conductive than copper.  A competent 10g UP-OCC grade copper mains cable should easily outperform a Silver Electra 7.  It may not have the obvious treble zing of the Silver Electra but the DAVE should provide you better dynamics with this chord and may outperform the Platinum Electra as well.  Using that reasoning, would an 8g cable sound better than a 10g cable and would a 6g cable sound better than an 8g cable?  I happened to do this testing for myself.  
  
 Another one of the three cables that differentiated itself during my cable evaluation back in May was the Shunyata Alpha Digital, a 10g OFC cable that incorporated a special EMI shield and so this cable was designed specifically for digital gear.  I didn't care much for this cable since it resulted in "over conditioning."  This time around, I borrowed 3 more Shunyata mains cables but these cables are not sissy cables designed for low power digital equipment, these are HC (high current) cables designed for hungry amplifiers or giant power distributors.  Aside from larger gauge copper, they incorporate Shunyata's DTCD (Dynamic Transient Current Delivery) technology.  The inexpensive Venom HC ($295) comes in at 11g, the Alpha HC ($999) is effectively a 7g cable and the giant snake-like Sigma HC ($2,795) comes in at 6g but also incorporates a different geometry that further improves it ability to deliver current.  For reference, I also compared these cables against an Audience AU24SE LP chord, a 16g OCC copper chord designed specifically for low power digital equipment (<50watts):
  

  
 I want to reiterate that these HC chords are NOT designed for low power digital gear like the Chord DAVE.  In fact, Shunyata suggested to me that these chords would be overkill but I can tell you that each of these HC chords sounded noticeably better than the 16g Audience AU24SE and that the 7g Alpha HC sounded considerably better than the 11g Venom HC.  What is interesting is that the 6g Sigma HC didn't sound any different than the 7g Alpha HC.  It would appear there's no benefit to going bigger than the Alpha with the DAVE.
  
 Here's another experiment that further supports my claims.  That large black vertical power conditioner you see in the photo is Shunyata's new Denali 6000T.  Shunyata conditioners like the Triton/Typhon are unique in that have zero impact on dynamics meaning they don't add line resistance because their modules work in parallel and not in series.  The Denalis are special because they incorporate Caelin Gabriel's new medical grade CCI (Component to Component Isolation) technology that is supposed to result in profound levels of isolation against any noise that your other components might generate and 4 of the 6 receptacles incorporate this level of isolation.  The other 2 receptacles are HC receptacles and incorporate Shunyata's QR/BB technology which is designed to improve dynamics by providing more current on demand to power hungry components compared to plugging straight into the wall.  Some line conditioners offer this feature through the use of energy storing capacitors but then these capacitors also add to the line resistance and so there is a tradeoff but this new Shunyata technology apparently does NOT use such capacitors and adds no line resistance.  Once again, these 2 HC receptacles offer less filtering but more current on demand and are designed for hungry amplifiers while the other 4 receptacles are supposed to provide medical grade isolation and are designed for sensitive digital gear.  As I plugged DAVE into any of the 4 receptacles that were supposedly designed for it, there was indeed some improvement in terms of a certain crispness and clarity to the sound with no perceived loss of dynamics compared to plugging straight into the wall but when I plugged DAVE into one of the HC receptacles, it was an unexpected "Wow" moment.  The dynamics were convincingly improved and the soundstage became more spacious.  When I plugged my Paul Hynes PSU that powers my microRendu into the other HC receptacle, it was another "Wow" moment.  The microRendu barely consumes 4 watts and yet it greatly benefits from the same instantaneous current delivery that the HC receptacles provide.  While I borrowed this Denali purely to test my theory, the improvement is so incredible that I have now purchased a Denali.
  
 High Fidelity Cables are a completely different beast.  Nick suggested he "dumped" the HFC cables for the Silver Electra 7 and that's perfectly fine as I am not trying to convince anyone to buy any specific brand of cable.  Most know that I have a bias for the magnetic conduction technology that HFC has a patent on but by no means is it the only good cable for the DAVE nor do I consider it a great value.  In fact, the baseline CT-1 at $2k, while very capable, doesn't result in any great impact.  If you read my review from May, it was only when paired with the MC-6 Hemisphere where it really set itself apart but that will set you back $4,800 for the combination.  The CT-1 Ultimate is where HFC's cables become legitimately good with the DAVE but at about $6,500 for 1.5 meters, this is not a cheap proposition.  HFC's higher end cables (from Ultimate onward) are difficult to evaluate when borrowed from places like www.thecableco.com because they only allow you a week to try one out and it takes at least a week for this cable to begin to sound good and several weeks to sound exceptional.  They also don't lend themselves to quick A/B comparisons because they take so long to take effect but once in full effect, their impact is not subtle and when you pull them out of your system, the collapse is quite shocking.
  
 While I have said plenty about HFC in the past and have no desire to promote it again beyond this post, in a nutshell, its magnetic technology is designed to concentrate the electrical current to the very core of the special coaxial cable that it uses and away from the periphery of the cable.  As you go up the line, the level of magnetism increases and so the electron beam becomes even more focused resulting in less impact from the dielectric and even faster conduction.  As I have helped Rick Schultz test his upcoming magnetic headphone device for him, he has allowed me free access to all of his cables including his TOTL Pro Series mains cable which sells for almost $22k for a 1.5 meter cable.  While this is a ludicrous amount to pay for a mains cable, he shared with me that the powerful rare earth magnets used have to be mined in China and are difficult and expensive to bring to the U.S.  They are also potentially dangerous to handle as they can cause metal objects like nails or small scissors to take flight and so they have to be fitted in a specially shielded encasement before they can be sold.  Materials cost for such a cable not including labor is about $10k.  When you factor in the 2 weeks of labor required to assemble one and the dealer's margin and considering that this is not a high volume item but rather a specialized piece targeted towards industry professionals, then you'll understand that this isn't one of those components with a ridiculous 90% profit margin.  
  
 As always, the point is does it make a difference?  Without a shadow of a doubt, the answer is absolutely and emphatically "yes".  If there is anyone among you who doubts the impact a power chord can have on the DAVE, just pair it with this cable and your doubts will be erased.  As you go up the HFC line, not only does speed, control and clarity seem to be enhanced but so does tonal body.  With most things I have experienced, as things get faster (like silver compared to copper), they can also sound leaner or thinner and so there is this tradeoff.  With this mains cable, this tradeoff is not there because the image has surprising mass and heft, much more than the cables below it.  The presentation is also cohesively smooth, stunningly clear and resolved and as it has 5x the magnetism of the Helix cable just below it, there seems to be a much greater difference going from the Helix to the Pro Series than from the CT-1 Ultimate to the Helix.   The point of this description is to highlight that a mains cable has the potential to greatly impact the DAVE and that none of us probably truly knows what the DAVE is fully capable of.
  
 Another often misunderstood or underestimated concept regarding power is the importance of a dedicated line.  Most people believe that the importance of a dedicated line is for clean power but really, the main role of a dedicated line should be to lower line resistance.  If you don't believe me, here is a nice piece written by Vince Galbo of MSB and I have found it to be very true in my system.  In this piece, Vince suggests that the main goal is to "Lower Resistance."  
  
"People often tell me “I have 20 amp dedicated lines”. By US electrical code definitions, a 20 amp dedicated line will have 12 gauge wire in the wall. So while you may have a “dedicated line”, 12 gauge wire is absolutely insufficient for high end audio systems. We are recommending ten gauge or thicker wire here. It is the subject and goal of this paper. The gauge of the wire is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than the fact that the line is “dedicated”. The subject of this paper works on the theory that the varying musical demands of your amplifier are actually modulating the incoming power line, divorced from the utility (power company) by some resistance (12 or 14 gauge wall wiring at some length from the breaker panel has too much resistance for audio purposes). The noise coming from your utility is probably much lower than you suspect and the gauge of the wire is far more important. The amp demands current up and down with the music at audio frequencies that are of course above and below the 60 cycles from the power company. These demands are impressed on the line wavering the incoming voltage and so the amp is re-ingesting its own noise and also making the line dirty for itself AND the audio front end. This is possible because the wall wiring back to the breaker panel has some degree of resistance depending on the length of the run and the wire gauge (12 gauge or sometimes even 14 gauge). Power conditioners and certain power cord designs help because they make an effort to “shunt” this noise (short it out and kill it) and consume the unwanted frequencies. A better answer is to reduce the resistance back to the breaker panel making it difficult for the amp to modulate the power at all and also at the same time getting maximum power for the amplifier power supply. And so there are two benefits to reducing the resistance back to the breaker panel."
  
 http://www.msbtechnology.com/faq/how-to-wire-your-house-for-good-power/
  
 Remember, the DAVE is both a digital and an analog device.  In my system, my DAVE wears three important hats -- DAC, headphone amp and speaker amp and so it really shouldn't be surprising that it would benefit from good power in the same way that any low impedance device or amplifier would.  In fact, in my experience, if you plug your DAVE into a 15A line that utilizes 14g wire (like in my home) that has many shared branches utilized by other components, the impact of the large Shunyata HC cables seems to have much less impact and so this might be another reason why some people can't hear much difference among various cables.
  
 With regards to power regenerators, I have come to the conclusion that these are sometimes necessary evils.  Vince Galbo prefers to plug his MSB gear directly into the wall but when he travels to shows, at each of the three audio shows that I saw him at this past year, he has utilized PS Audio P10 regenerators.  In fact, most rooms seemed to be using P10s and the responses I often received were "because we have no choice."  At audio shows, rooms generally are not on dedicated circuits and with all the audio gear playing throughout the venue, it's probably not difficult to imagine how current-starved the rooms must be.  The beauty of power regenerators is not only do they create clean power but more importantly, your panel is literally now within a few feet of your equipment and if you read Vince's article, he made it clear that the distance to your panel plays as much role as the gauge of wire that is used.  The problem is that power regenerators are not necessarily low impedance devices.  If you must get one, even for low power gear, consider the P10.  According to PS Audio, the P10's output impedance is "100 times lower than any Power Plant ever built."  @jelt2359 has experience with both the P5 and the P10 and he has posted that he has noticed a difference with the two even with his low power system with the P10 being preferred.
  
 To conclude, yes, the DAVE can sound good in almost any situation and you don't have to spend a ton of money to be happy with it.  My recommendation is that if you're happy with your DAVE, don't go looking for trouble because ignorance can be bliss.  For those complaining of brightness or a thin sound, for sure, look at your analog cables but also look at the quality of your power delivery.  For those looking for DAVE's ceiling, it's much higher than you think.  In my setup, to my ears, DAVE is way more than 20% better than my Mojo (and I really love my Mojo) and I believe it has much more do to with just the number of TAPS.  Moreover, battery supplies are not automatically better or quieter and they are often compromised as far as dynamics compared with the best mains-based PSUs I have heard.  
  
 As for simple recommendations that don't necessarily cost a lot of money, I think the best value upgrade a person can make to their system is to get a dedicated 20A line.  Following Vince's guidelines, my dedicated 20A line cost me about $400.  If this isn't possible because you live in an apartment or condo, then you might be forced to batteries or else a power regenerator but if you go this route, go for the P10 if you can.  
  
 As for a high-value mains cable, the Wireworld Silver Electra 7 sounds like a wonderful value based on several positive reports by DAVE owners but there is the proviso that this cable can sound bright.  Another option would be the $300 Shunyata Venom HC (this one is not bright at all) but if you can swing it, the Alpha HC is currently on sale for $800 and is considerably better.  While I haven't heard these cables, Synergistic Research's Black UEF AC Chord which is a 10g chord that incorporates graphene ($500) and also Cerious Technologies Blue Power Cable which is designed for High Current delivery and also incorporates graphene ($350) could prove to be great values.  
  
 With line conditioners, if they are necessary, consider the ones that don't add line resistance (usually "in parallel" devices).  I found the Audience aR series to be a pretty good "in series" device but they will add 30 milliohms of line resistance.  The UberBuss is an excellent "in parallel" device that also provides power factor correction and can therefore improve current delivery for about $1k.  If you want to go higher and actually improve your wall receptacle's current output, consider the Shunyata Denali.  Since the benefit is greatest with the HC receptacles, you can easily get by with the less expensive 2000T ($3k) and this is the one I have purchased.  
  
 For the absolute best, this will always be open to debate but the very best I have heard are HFC's higher end cables but they are not for the faint of heart.  As you can tell from this photo, I am insanely deep into these cables and while I never imagined I would pay more for a mains cable than my DAVE, I assure you I'm not insane enough to buy these cables if they didn't make a compelling difference.  The Pro series mains cable is truly end game for me and I expect it will be there to power my DAVE 2 and DAVE 3 in years to come.
  
  

  
  
 Once again, if anyone is wondering, while I have done some consulting work for HFC and provided support for them at RMAF, I have not been paid to do it.  I have not received any financial compensation at any time from them nor have I received any free product.  I have been fortunate to find all of my HFC cables second hand from various sources including HFC themselves.  As for HFC's headphone device that some of you have recently PM'd me about, it will be called the Trinity Helix.  I got to hear it for the first time at RMAF and because of noisy conditions, it was hard to really form an opinion.  I finally received a version of it for personal evaluation a couple of weeks ago and what I can say is that this is a massive device that weighs around 10kg.  I had very high expectations for it but somehow, even after a week of use, it wasn't sounding very good.  Compared against the smaller prototype I have in my possession, I could barely tell a difference and I suspect this thing will take months to break in.  I have told Rick Schultz that most who buy it will probably lose patience with it and so this model is being re-worked.  Here is a photo of what this device looks like:


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## dmance

Regarding making DAVE sound better. I posted on the Chord 2Qute forum about how much better my 2Qute sounds with a Teddy Pardo PSU vs the factory adapter. It's really night and day. Huge improvement across the board.
YET...I have high respect for Rob Watts when he says an external PSU does not matter on a 2Qute or that it's 'third order differences'. He mentioned comparing a mains powered supply vs a battery and could discern no difference.
Alas, I think he may be wrong ...or possibly did not have a high enough resolution system. Or part of the Chord marketing is to emphasize reduced dependency on external factors.
This got me thinking...what if DAVE could sound better with an external PSU option. I trust the brilliant engineering at Chord...but they may have underestimated how good their products can be made to sound.


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## astrostar59

I don't have the DAVE but I do use the P10 power regenerator. It has upgraded my whole system TBH, better bass, cleaner and smoother sound, wider soundstage. I would explain it as you may have noticed how your system sounds better at 2am in the morning - well that is the clean mains time v midday sound. Double that difference and that is what you get with a P10, permanent clean power and constant high sound quality.
  
  
  
  

  
  
 I also found an external LPS powering my Mac Mini gives another boost as well. This may no be possible with some servers, but is possible with a Mac Mini or a PC.
  

 Finally I found USB is not good for high end audio. It has come a long way in the last few years, but I still didn't like the impact of it on the sound. I went AOIP with a Rednet and that gave a further level of smoothness and clean detail and lost the final vestiges of 'digital' to the sound. Any treble edge or glair remaining with USB was now gone. The Rednet may not suit a DAVE though as AES/SPDIF is limited to 192K. I use Redbook and NOS into an R-2R DAC so slightly different. My USB chain was nearly £2K of fixers. I have tried Offramp 5, M2Tech EVO full stack, various regen and filtering, TotalDAC USB cable.


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## Mojo ideas

astrostar59 said:


> I don't have the DAVE but I do use the P10 power regenerator. It has upgraded my whole system TBH, better bass, cleaner and smoother sound, wider soundstage. I would explain it as you may have noticed how your system sounds better at 2am in the morning - well that is the clean mains time v midday sound. Double that difference and that is what you get with a P10, permanent clean power and constant high sound quality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah ! But what happens to the cable as it enters the house wall and traces back through the cabling in the building and out into the street and a long the street over hills and Vales over and along many a leafy mile back to the substation and on to another High voltage conversion substation and thence on wards back though the high voltage overhead cables to the generator. Do you think the last few feet of unobtainium and grapheme wrapped wonder copper really can make that much of a serious impact?


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## EVOLVIST

dmance said:


> This got me thinking...what if DAVE could sound better with an external PSU option. I trust the brilliant engineering at Chord...but they may have underestimated how good their products can be made to sound.




I've thought about this, too, but is that even possible, to power a DAVE with a linear power supply?


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## romaz

mojo ideas said:


> Ah ! But what happens to the cable as it enters the house wall and traces back through the cabling in the building and out into the street and a long the street over hills and Vales over and along many a leafy mile back to the substation and on to another High voltage conversion substation and thence on wards back though the high voltage overhead cables to the generator. Do you think the last few feet of unobtainium and grapheme wrapped wonder copper really can make that much of a serious impact?


 
 Good point, John.  What you have stated is the counterpoint to my argument and it is valid.  There's not much you can do about the miles of cabling outside of your home.  Here in the U.S., for those of us who own a house (as opposed to living in an apartment or condominium), obtaining a dedicated line is not difficult nor expensive.  Following Vince Galbo's guidelines almost exactly, I was able to install a 20A dedicated line using 50 feet of standard 10g Romex from my listening room to my main panel for about $400 and is easily one of the best value upgrades I have done.  It's amazing how my sound just opened up and became more relaxed and effortless.  Without this line, the impact of this last few feet of unobtainium that you describe is definitely considerably less.  Obviously, each person will need to decide the value of such upgrades.
  
 These last few feet of cabling that connect your components to the wall can do harm, however.  For example, if this mains cable is even more restrictive that the line before it, you can make a compromised situation even worse.  At the very least, it would make sense to me that you at least match the gauge of cabling used from your wall to your main panel and such a chord doesn't have to be expensive.
  
 For very compromised situations where there are no good power solutions, if it were me, I'd get a TT or stick with Mojo.  It's fortuitous that you have a good solution for every situation .


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## dmance

Evolvist,
I am 100% convinced that the 2qute is markedly better with 1) an external PSU and 2) a battery isolator on the USB power pin. Both of these actions drastically reduce the analog noise encroaching on the core circuits...to audible effect. Rob Watts says don't bother...but I say, hell yes bother because I can hear it.
Will the same argument hold true for the DAVE? I don't know, I don't have one to try. Obviously it's a newer design and things may have improved. It's too bad that the AC power is converted on-board rather than externally because that means we will never know how much better DAVE could be. Shame.
Dan


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## romaz

dmance said:


> Evolvist,
> I am 100% convinced that the 2qute is markedly better with 1) an external PSU and 2) a battery isolator on the USB power pin. Both of these actions drastically reduce the analog noise encroaching on the core circuits...to audible effect. Rob Watts says don't bother...but I say, hell yes bother because I can hear it.
> Will the same argument hold true for the DAVE? I don't know, I don't have one to try. Obviously it's a newer design and things may have improved. It's too bad that the AC power is converted on-board rather than externally because that means we will never know how much better DAVE could be. Shame.
> Dan


 
 The 2Qute is not the DAVE and what you are suggesting won't be easy.  Of course, you would violate the warranty.  Now, if you buy a DAVE and are so unhappy with how it sounds because you believe it is due to its inferior switching PSU and if you think you can produce a better PSU than Rob can for the DAVE, you will have to match the performance specs Rob has listed in his post.  I can tell you I have not seen any linear PSU that has specs as good as this and so good luck.  I will be following your adventures with great interest:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/4035#post_12770432


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## kennyb123

Shunyata's response to the "last few feet" argument can be found in the "Power Cord Misconceptions" section:

http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/support/faqs


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## romaz

astrostar59 said:


> I don't have the DAVE but I do use the P10 power regenerator. It has upgraded my whole system TBH, better bass, cleaner and smoother sound, wider soundstage. I would explain it as you may have noticed how your system sounds better at 2am in the morning - well that is the clean mains time v midday sound. Double that difference and that is what you get with a P10, permanent clean power and constant high sound quality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 You have a nice setup.  I have the same Mac Mini with Uptone MMK.  Mine is powered by a Paul Hynes SR7.  OSX is run off SD card and music drive is streamed from a Thunderbolt drive.  
  
 I have compared microRendu powered by the Paul Hynes SR7 against a recently purchased SOtM sMS-200 which is also powered by the SR7.  Compared against the LPS-1, I have found the SR7 to be superior.  USB cable used is a Clarity Cables Natural USB which is one of few USB cables that has been actually measured to meet true USB 2.0 spec (90 ohms differential impedance).  This cable outperformed and replaced my Curious USB which outperformed and replaced my TotalDac USB.  I have recently compared it against the RedNet 3 via SPDIF:
  

  

  
 With each connected to my Chord DAVE, RedNet 3 sounded very good, a bit better than the microRendu with iFi 9V PSU.  As you suggested, details were a bit cleaner.  With the microRendu powered by the SR7, soundstage of the microRendu was much bigger with more air and much better dynamics but clarity with RedNet was still a bit better.  In comparison, microRendu sounded a bit muffled.  Which one is better between these two, I think it's a toss up.  It depends on which qualities you value more.
  
 The winner of the group by a fair margin, however, was the SOtM sMS-200 powered by the SR7.  This is now my new reference front end with my DAVE and surpasses the microRendu by a fair margin and for less money ($450).  In fact, it is the least expensive device of this group.  It matched every bit the clarity and the smoothness of the RedNet but the soundstage was bigger still and with extraordinary dynamics.  Compared to RedNet, RedNet sounds flat.  Treble edge or glare?  I'm not hearing any of it.  This device is very clean and the PSU has a lot to do with it.  Part of this is almost certainly due to DAVE's exceptional USB implementation which incorporates galvanic isolation.  While the RedNet 3 holds much promise, I suspect its downfall is its PSU.  
  
 Regarding your system, consider replacing your HDPlex.  With your Mac Mini, you will be quite surprised how much better the Paul Hynes supplies are.  I say this because I have an HDPlex also in addition to a Teradak, Paul Pang, Kenneth Lau and LPS-1.  None of them are in the SR7's league.  Since Paul Hynes is based in Scotland, it should be easier for you to audition one.


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## romaz

kennyb123 said:


> Shunyata's response to the "last few feet" argument can be found in the "Power Cord Misconceptions" section:
> 
> http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/support/faqs


 
 Nice reference, Kenny.  I know you have a Shunyata Denali as well.  Just amazingly good.


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## TheAttorney

dmance said:


> It's too bad that the AC power is converted on-board rather than externally because that means we will never know how much better DAVE could be. Shame.


 
 It's not at all a shame for me that the AC is converted inside the DAVE. Because the integrated small transportable package was a big selling point for me.
 Us audiophiles always have to fret about something, but I'm glad that this is one aspect I don't have to fret about - because I have no choice.


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## TheAttorney

romaz said:


> The winner of the group by a fair margin, however, was the SOtM sMS-200 powered by the SR7.  This is now my new reference front end with my DAVE and surpasses the microRendu by a fair margin and for less money ($450).


 
 You don't hang about do you? 
  
 How does the SotM compare with the mR when both driven by a lesser supply than the SR7? Like the LPS-1 for example.
  
 How do you have the software configured to drive the SotM? As a HQP+NAA user, with broad intention to add Roon one day, it's easy with the mR because it is both HPQ-ready and Roon-ready, so it just works. But not obvious how the same 2 apps would drive the SotM.     
  
 EDIT: On further searching, looks like SOtM can handle both HQP and Roon


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## jelt2359

Just thought I'd add my experience- I own an Entreq Silver Minimum and Ertha Apollo cable. Recently, I added an Everest binding post. I am using a BNC to RCA adaptor on those unused DX Inputs of the Dave, and I connected the Entreq to this. The Entreq certainly takes time to settle. A-Bing does nothing, I hear literally very little difference (some, but not much). But leave the Entreq a few days, and then remove it, and suddenly the sound becomes much less vivid, less clear, less detailed, and just overall _noisier. _It is, frankly, obvious. Worth a shot.
  
 Apart from grounding, I've also found power cords to make a difference. I do all my power cord testing on the Dave, simply because it's the easiest. By plugging just a single cord into the Dave, I can test that cord's entire effect because the Dave would be both amp and dac. I have found very clearly discernible differences in power cords- differences that persist across different setups (like on my friends' hifi setups). In fact, I'd venture to say that I've found some power cords' effect on sound is more significant than interconnects. Doesn't mean that one needs to go out and spend a fortune on cords- in fact, my favourite so far costs under $500 for a 6 foot cord. I like this guy's stuff so much, I'm asking him to build me a headphone cable too (he seldom does so, focusing only on hi-fi).


----------



## dmance

romaz said:


> ... Part of this is almost certainly due to DAVE's exceptional USB implementation which incorporates galvanic isolation.




Romaz,
On the issue of a USB source sounding better for one reason or another, I trust we all understand it has nothing to do with the 'bits' or their integral transmission. Modern USB interfaces (source and DAC) get this right. We all know what digital errors sound like (pops, snaps, crackles) and they have nothing to do with staging, treble glare, musicality. 

Everything we regard as USB deficiencies are all attributed to noise on the USB +5v pins...seeping into the DAC and then mucking with the internal clock timing or radiating around to the analog section. Variables on the source (server, software, psu, etc) just vary the disturbances on +5v of the USB cable. 

Asynchronous USB has 100% fidelity from a digital data perspective. What we hear is the effects of low level analog noise.No one source is inherently 'better' from a digital perspective - they may just have reduced effects on the USB power pins.

Yes, these are mitigated by Galvanic isolation, I suppose, but for some reason the noisy ripples on the USB still contaminate the DAC. My evidence is my ears (and brain) with my exaSound and 2qute...both galvanically isolated but both transformed for the better by a regulated battery inserted into the USB interface.

Maybe Rob nailed this issue on the DAVE but maybe not.

Dan


----------



## STR-1

romaz - thanks for the thought-provoking post on the SOtM sms200 and the Shunyata HC cables. 
  
 I had been thinking about the sms200 since seeing the Hans Beekhuyzen review and I have just reserved a unit which should be shipping into the UK within the next couple of weeks.  Like the TheAttorney, I too would be interested to learn what you thought about how well the LPS-1 paired with the sms200.  I upgraded my LPS-1 power lead to the Sonore DC-4, which I have found to add more authority and refinement to the mRendu sound (the stock lead sounding a little lean and bright).
  
 Also, I think I will soon be in a position to take a loan of a Shunyata Alpha HC cable.  A few months ago, after having tried an Alpha Analogue, I contacted Shunyata for their advice on best pairing with the DAVE.  During the course of those exchanges I received replies from two different people at Shunyata with advice that led me to feel the analogue was probably the better pairing compared to the digital cable, but I was also encouraged to try out the Alpha HC cable if I could.  Knowing that you would have been testing them also with your speaker system, can I just check if your positive comments about the Shunyata cables reflected their use with the DAVE with its headphone amp hat on?   I do not have a dedicated mains line for my music system and having one installed is not a realistic option.  Also, I do not see myself feeling able to splash out on a Dinali, so I am wondering just how much benefit I would get from a Shunyata HC cable.


----------



## kennyb123

romaz said:


> Nice reference, Kenny.  I know you have a Shunyata Denali as well.  Just amazingly good.


 

 Yup, the D6000/S.  Amazingly good may just be an understatement.  Really stunning to me the noise I had been listening through all these years.  And that a power conditioner can actually improve dynamics is stunning to me too.


----------



## Silvertone4

Howdy,
  
 Some questions on the DAVE:
  
  
 Has anyone experimented with HF Filter setting on the Dave?  What are the implications on the signature sound of the DAC when it's turned ON? 
  
 What am I 'giving up' in performance when using the balanced outputs vs. singled ended?  In other words, am I sacrificing channel separation? noise floor? cross-talk? R and L channel level matching? etc..
  
 Has anyone paired this dac with Ayre preamps?  Could you comment on the sound?
  
  
 Thanks!!


----------



## miketlse

dmance said:


> Romaz,
> On the issue of a USB source sounding better for one reason or another, I trust we all understand it has nothing to do with the 'bits' or their integral transmission. Modern USB interfaces (source and DAC) get this right. We all know what digital errors sound like (pops, snaps, crackles) and they have nothing to do with staging, treble glare, musicality.
> 
> Everything we regard as USB deficiencies are all attributed to noise on the USB +5v pins...seeping into the DAC and then mucking with the internal clock timing or radiating around to the analog section. Variables on the source (server, software, psu, etc) just vary the disturbances on +5v of the USB cable.
> ...


 
  
 Rob Watts tested the 2Qute using a 300A battery, and could tell no sound difference to using the power supply that comes with the 2Qute.
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/749582/chord-electronics-2qute-dac-announced/495#post_11788386
  
 You must have extremely sensitive ears and brain.


----------



## Light - Man

miketlse said:


> Rob Watts tested the 2Qute using a 300A battery, and could tell no sound difference to using the power supply that comes with the 2Qute.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/749582/chord-electronics-2qute-dac-announced/495#post_11788386
> 
> You must have extremely sensitive ears and brain.


 
  
 Several people on the 2Qute thread said that using an up-rated power supply made a noticeable difference, of course the DAVE is a different issue.
  
 I suppose a lot depends on how good Rob's hearing is and what headphones he was using, I believe he likes the AQ NH which would not be the most revealing headphones in the World.
  
 A lot of us, myself included have never had our hearing checked for high frequency loss and perhaps our ears are not as sensitive as others?


----------



## ecwl

I'm seeing a lot of posts about SMPS vs LPS with 2Qute and power cords making a difference with DAVE. But I'm also seeing a lot of posts about UpTone LPS-1 making a difference. I know traditionally, we think power supply makes a difference due to delivery of power and noise. But for those who purchased LPS-1 and read designer John Swenson's comments on the UpTone blog and on Computer Audiophile, he feels strongly that power line noise is not the main source of worsening SQ but it's leakage currents that are the main problems. That's why the UpTone LPS-1 was designed in the first place. Of course when Rob Watts powered the 2Qute with batteries, there would be no leakage current. And if Rob Watts just plugged the SMPS of the 2Qute in the same power bar as all his other audio gear, that would also significantly minimize the leakage current so it's possible that Rob Watts didn't hear a difference because his system has minimized the potential for leakage currents. Obviously in a system where there are lots of power filters and audio components, there are many more potentials for leakage currents to affect the sound quality and maybe that's why people's mileage varies with respect to power supplies and power cords. It may have nothing to do with different people's hearing capabilities.


----------



## Jawed

ecwl said:


> And if Rob Watts just plugged the SMPS of the 2Qute in the same power bar as all his other audio gear, that would also significantly minimize the leakage current so it's possible that Rob Watts didn't hear a difference because his system has minimized the potential for leakage currents.



I don't understand this. Can you say more?


----------



## kennyb123

jawed said:


> I don't understand this. Can you say more?


 
  
 On of Swenson's posts on leakage current can be found (in the entry from July 4, 2016) posted here:
 http://uptoneaudio.com/pages/j-swenson-tech-corner
  
 The LPS-1 eliminates the leakage current that can be passed on to the DAC through USB.  I won't do anything about noise the switching mode supply kicks back to other components.  I think systems vary greatly in how sensitive they are to such noise.


----------



## ecwl

Well, like Rob Watts, whose insights are scattered in the Head Fi forums, John Swenson's insights are scattered throughout the Computer Audiophile forums so you'll have to search for them to read them. But here are the highlights I am quoting from him, in addition to what he wrote on the uptone page. They are coming from numerous posts on numerous forums over at Computer Audiophile:
  
 But what I am talking about [leakage current] is the loop that forms through one PS to its DC output through a device (usually the negative, but it can be the positive) through an interconnect,(again usually the ground or shield) (digital or audio) to another device, through ITS power supply and back through the AC line to the first power supply. This is a low impedance loop in normally connected systems, usually less than an ohm through everything.
  
 What I am talking about is very low impedances, small voltages and small currents. It has nothing to do with earth ground, safety ground etc. It is formed by capacitances in the PS between AC line and DC output generating a voltage between AC line and DC output. When a low impedance connection is formed between the DC output of one PS and the DC output of another PS these voltages form a current flow. Since the loop (I'm calling this a leakage loop) goes through TWO power supplies the waveform of this leakage current depends on the characteristics of both supplies. Thus it is hard to define the characteristics of a single supply, unless you define a "standard" supply to reference all others to.
  
 You can get rid of the noise generated by these loops in two ways, block the loop somewhere in the loop (The LPS-1 does this for certain paths), OR decrease the impedance along the loop, if the impedance is lower the NOISE generated by the CURRENT will be less.

 To decrease the impedance on the AC you need to have the lowest possible amount of wire, filters, anything else between the outlets you plug your AC cords into. This specifically means NO filters in the power strips, they dramatically increase the leakage currents between boxes plugged into such a strip.

 Ideally you should have ONE power strip with EVERYTHING in your audio system plugged into that one strip. By everything I mean everything that has an AC plug that is connected into your audio system somehow. This includes power amps, computers etc.
  
 Yep, all AC line to DC power supplies (except LPS-1 and LIO) have leakage current, even ones in pre-amps and power-amps. LPS supplies generally have lower leakage than SMPS supplies so the effects of the LPS in pre/power amps is usually less than the leakage current involving digital systems which usually use SMPS. It is the almost universal use of SMPS in computer systems and the larger leakage current from such supplies which have made leakage current much more important to SQ than the leakage current in the rest of the chain.


----------



## Jawed

This is what I understand now:

So AC leakage currents are flowing across the power supply within each component in a system. If there is more than one component powered from the mains and these components are connected to each other for either digital or analogue signals, then they will end up sharing each others AC leakage currents through one or more loops.

The connections that make up each loop each have their own impedances, so each connection will have an effect on the AC leakage currents.

Given the same set of components (e.g. PC and DAVE), connected with the same cables, it's possible to get different performance due to the leakage current solely because the impedance between mains connections can vary. If one system uses a power conditioner and the other system has both mains cables running into the same plug, it's expected the systems will sound different solely because of the difference in impedances seen between the two components' physical connection to the main supply.

Back in the late 90s/early 00s I used to run my DAC, pre-amp, active crossover and 6 power amps from one mains plug. The CD transport was in another plug and optically isolated (AT&T ST fiber optic glass cable, not TOSLINK optical junk). It was definitely better than running all that stuff from individual mains plugs... 

So, anyway, roughly the same idea it seems.


----------



## dmance

miketlse said:


> Rob Watts tested the 2Qute using a 300A battery, and could tell no sound difference to using the power supply that comes with the 2Qute.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/749582/chord-electronics-2qute-dac-announced/495#post_11788386
> 
> You must have extremely sensitive ears and brain.




I run from my DAC right to my mono tube amps. It's true that with my preamp in the path I don't hear the missing details as clearly. With a direct DAC-AMP-Speakers setup I am shocked at the transparency. Anyone's ears can pick up the benefit.

And yes, I've read almost all Rob Watts posts, including this one ...so I did not expect the Teddy Pardo to do anything.


----------



## paulkwan

For those suffer from random noise playback when switching between PCM DSD files, just to share I have workaround this by adding HQP to my Roon, and set it to resample to DXD.


----------



## paulkwan

Another sharing, just add a iUSB 3 between my NUC and DAVE gives wonderful SQ. Definitely worth it.
I've used iUSB, Jitterbug, USBRegen, mR in recent years, and my NUC is fanless with LPS.


----------



## Ashrunner

Just got the e-mail I've been waiting for - my black DAVE arrived today and I'm going to pick it up tomorrow.  I'll be using it with Focal Utopia, mRendu, sonicTransporter, PS Audio PerfectWave power regenerator, Shunyata Alpha Digital Zitron power cord, Roon software, and eventually w/ DHC prion cables if they ever ship - stock until then since my black dragons are balanced.
  
 It will be interesting to see how my new set up compares to my set up last year (HD800S, Rag / Yggy, black dragon interconnects and cables, stock power cable and no power regeneration).  I've already incorporated a few elements but I was waiting on DAVE before putting everything together.  Tomorrow should be fun assuming DAVE turns on when I hit the switch!


----------



## romaz

ashrunner said:


> Just got the e-mail I've been waiting for - my black DAVE arrived today and I'm going to pick it up tomorrow.  I'll be using it with Focal Utopia, mRendu, sonicTransporter, PS Audio PerfectWave power regenerator, Shunyata Alpha Digital Zitron power cord, Roon software, and eventually w/ DHC prion cables if they ever ship - stock until then since my black dragons are balanced.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how my new set up compares to my set up last year (HD800S, Rag / Yggy, black dragon interconnects and cables, stock power cable and no power regeneration).  I've already incorporated a few elements but I was waiting on DAVE before putting everything together.  Tomorrow should be fun assuming DAVE turns on when I hit the switch!


 
 You have a wonderful setup.  I foresee late nights and not much sleep for you in the coming days.  Congratulations!


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> Well, like Rob Watts, whose insights are scattered in the Head Fi forums, John Swenson's insights are scattered throughout the Computer Audiophile forums so you'll have to search for them to read them. But here are the highlights I am quoting from him, in addition to what he wrote on the uptone page. They are coming from numerous posts on numerous forums over at Computer Audiophile:
> 
> But what I am talking about [leakage current] is the loop that forms through one PS to its DC output through a device (usually the negative, but it can be the positive) through an interconnect,(again usually the ground or shield) (digital or audio) to another device, through ITS power supply and back through the AC line to the first power supply. This is a low impedance loop in normally connected systems, usually less than an ohm through everything.
> 
> ...


 
 John Swenson said you could also break this ground loop (leakage current) via galvanic isolation from one component to the next.  For example, if there was galvanic isolation between microRendu and DAVE at the USB cable, then it wouldn't matter if microRendu was plugged into ground.  John Swenson and Alex Crespi will soon be releasing the new "Iso Regen" which is an upgraded version of their USB Regen that includes a better clock and galvanic isolation specifically for this reason.
  
 As we know, DAVE already has galvanic isolation and I have found it to be excellent.  I had an Intona Industrial USB Isolator at my disposal for a few days and whether it was in my chain or not, it made no difference to SQ.  With the DAVE, I don't think leakage current is an issue.


----------



## analogmusic

Dear Rob

 For Naim amplifier owners, can I re-confirm with that you that Dave has signal earth connected to mains earth (therefore providing Signal grounding)?

 How is this connected in Dave, (I can't see it from the internal pictures of Dave)
  
  
 Regards


----------



## romaz

theattorney said:


> You don't hang about do you?
> 
> How does the SotM compare with the mR when both driven by a lesser supply than the SR7? Like the LPS-1 for example.
> 
> ...


 
 Regardless of PSU used, the SOtM is better but the gap is bigger with the Paul Hynes.
  
 SOtM has suggested that while 7V will drive the sMS-200 adequately (and it does), 9V sounds better and the Paul Hynes SR7 is driving the sMS-200 at 9V and so this could be furthering the gap.
  
 The sMS-200 has an identical feature set as the mR and so you can use them both in exactly the same way.  In fact, there is no learning curve going from one to the other.  As you know, Roon+HQP had become my defacto standard in my system.  I'm not sure what has changed (possibly related to the most recent Roon upgrade) but a recent comparison of Roon vs Roon+HQP revealed that Roon by itself is now sounding better and so I have abandoned HQP for now.  Roon+HQP is somehow sounding shallower than Roon by itself.  I will have to do further tests when I have time but I am liking the simplicity of just dealing with Roon.


----------



## Rob Watts

analogmusic said:


> Dear Rob
> 
> For Naim amplifier owners, can I re-confirm with that you that Dave has signal earth connected to mains earth (therefore providing Signal grounding)?
> 
> ...


 
 Yes it is grounded - via a wire to chassis aluminium block, then each spacer from chassis to the PCB's ground planes.
  
 Rob


----------



## romaz

dmance said:


> Romaz,
> On the issue of a USB source sounding better for one reason or another, I trust we all understand it has nothing to do with the 'bits' or their integral transmission. Modern USB interfaces (source and DAC) get this right. We all know what digital errors sound like (pops, snaps, crackles) and they have nothing to do with staging, treble glare, musicality.
> 
> Everything we regard as USB deficiencies are all attributed to noise on the USB +5v pins...seeping into the DAC and then mucking with the internal clock timing or radiating around to the analog section. Variables on the source (server, software, psu, etc) just vary the disturbances on +5v of the USB cable.
> ...


 
  
  
 Here is what Rob had to say about the USB VBUS +5V issue that you believe is a problem:
  
"No don't worry about the USB VBUS +5v, as it too is isolated from Dave."
  
 Recently, having purchased my LPS-1, I also purchased a W4S Recovery (a USB regenerator that combined with the LPS-1 provides a very clean +5V VBUS that is devoid of leakage current).  I bought this mainly for a USB hard drive to see if it would improve SQ (and it didn't and so I sent it back).  While I had it, I connected it to DAVE and it made absolutely no difference.  Zero.
  
 There has been much talk about the deficiencies of USB compared to other modes of transmission (SPDIF, AES, AOIP, etc) and it's true that USB has problems but they can be overcome and you don't need to add a dozen trinkets to your USB chain to overcome them if you have a DAVE.  Very rarely will you see DAC manufacturers boast of their USB input over their other inputs.  It's often the opposite and so USB is often added more for convenience's sake.  If you pour through the AOIP or RedNet threads here on Head-Fi and other forums, it seems the consensus is that USB is dead in the water.  "Long live AOIP."  That may one day happen, especially if Rob decides to one day incorporate an ethernet input into the DAVE but as of right now, the best source I have heard is a USB source.
  
 LIke so many others, I understand you have not had good experiences with USB in your system but what I would suggest is that you spend some time with the DAVE and decide for yourself if Rob has overcome these issues that you talk about because I believe he has.  Of course, you will also want to make sure you have a good low-impedance music server paired with a good low-impedance PSU and lastly, a proper USB cable that meets spec.  That's all I use.  My setup is fairly simple.
  
 As for a proper USB cable, as you know, there are literally dozens out there and I'm sure everyone has their opinion on which one sounds best.  Here's the thing, most audiophile USB cables regardless of price don't even meet proper USB 2.0 spec.  Most companies seem to focus on expensive conductors and shielding.  Some will separate the power and data lines.  These are all good things but ask these manufacturers what the measured differential impedance of their cables are and whether they take individual measurements of every USB cable they make since there will be variances from cable to cable as well as variances among cables of different lengths.  The answer will likely be that most manufacturers don't take individual measurements because it isn't an easy thing to do.  The assumption that most manufacturers make is that if a signal is being passed without interruption, the impedance must be where it needs to be.  This logic is fine for laser printers but not for high-end audio.  There are even some boutique USB cable manufacturers who don't believe in taking measurements because they tune their cables "by ear."  There's a reason why a coax SPDIF cable should measure 75 ohms impedance and why an AES/EBU cable should measure 110 ohms impedance, otherwise, you get reflections that will have a negative impact on SQ.  Same thing applies for USB cables.  
  
 According to Gordon Rankin, an electrical engineer who was the first to implement asynchronous USB in a consumer DAC and is regarded by many as one of the world's best authorities on USB tested about 30 audiophile USB cables and surprisingly, most did NOT meet USB 2.0 spec which means that a cable must have a differential impedance of 90 ohms.  He says that unless this parameter is met, the USB feedback mechanism doesn't work because reflections get the signal confused on the computer end. Without it, there's no way for the computer to know that it's sending the data at the proper rate and bits get dropped. Since USB receivers have no error correction, a dropped bit gets interpolated at the DAC, and distortion increases. 
  
 Exactly which companies measure the impedance of each USB cable they manufacture to make sure their cables meet spec?  I know of quite a few who don't (and I intentionally won't publically name them) but I can verify that Clarity Cables based in Wichita, Kansas does.  This is a small outfit run by a husband and wife.  Chris Owens (the husband) is an electrical engineer and he makes each USB cable he sells by hand and measures each cable to make sure they meet full USB 2.0 spec.  Aside from applying heavy shielding and separating his data and power lines, there's no real magic ingredients used (he uses only standard oxygen-free copper).  Thus far, this is the finest USB cable I have heard.
  
 Here is a recent interview with Gordon Rankin on John Darko's website.  I believe you will find it to be an informative read:
  
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/05/gordon-rankin-on-why-usb-audio-quality-varies/


----------



## analogmusic

Ok so what is the most reliable cable for bit perfect data to Dave?
  
 Optical, Coax or USB?


----------



## romaz

light - man said:


> Several people on the 2Qute thread said that using an up-rated power supply made a noticeable difference, of course the DAVE is a different issue.
> 
> I suppose a lot depends on how good Rob's hearing is and what headphones he was using, I believe he likes the AQ NH which would not be the most revealing headphones in the World.
> 
> A lot of us, myself included have never had our hearing checked for high frequency loss and perhaps our ears are not as sensitive as others?


 
  
 Rob can capably defend himself but I suspect he'll choose not to.  Personally, Rob has taught me quite a bit about how to listen critically for differences.  If you haven't read his piece on "listening," you should.  It's a marvelous read:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/800264/watts-up#post_12457933
  
 I don't think it's a secret to anyone that Rob is a one man show.  He doesn't have a giant development team that helps him tune the sound of his DACs.  He uses only his ears and as DAVE is a product of those ears, I would say his hearing is fine.  It's easy for many who have never spent quality time with the DAVE to dismiss it based on its small size, small price tag (relative to other TOTL DACs) and because it uses a switching PSU but those that dismiss it based on such pre-conceived biases will miss out on a wonderfully transformational experience.


----------



## romaz

analogmusic said:


> Ok so what is the most reliable cable for bit perfect data to Dave?
> 
> Optical, Coax or USB?


 
 They each have their problems but with care, they can all sound good.  Ultimately, I would love to see a DAVE or an outboard scaler for the DAVE with an ethernet input that bypasses all of the above similar to MSB's Network Renderer or dCS's Vivaldi Upsampler.


----------



## halloweenman

halloweenman said:


> Thanks Gnomen I'll give pure music a try and let you know. I'm not convinced I'm afraid as I suspect when AMS talks to a Chord DAC via the APIs you mention the information it gets back from the Chord DAC is that it can only accept a 32 bit depth hence why it only displays this option. I suspect PM and Audirvana get the same info if they do the same.


 
 Just to follow up on this. I tried Pure Music and hated it. It sounded very good, when it worked! The user experience is horrible and the software and remote app are littered with bugs. It is also dependent on iTunes.
  
 The good news though is that I also tried a free trial of Roon. Here's what I said in the TT forum:
  
 "Wow, just had a play and listened to free trial of Roon. Absolutely head and shoulders above anything else I have tried for user experience and at least as good if not better for sound quality. Very impressed. Shame it costs so much!
  
 One thing that is great - you can setup so that it outputs true bit perfect 44/16 output to TT when playing 44/16 ALAC files. Audirvana and iTunes apply conversion to 32 bit with TT. It also has internet radio (Hi Def 6 Music here I come!) and a great ios/andriod remote app. All in all perfect for my needs."


----------



## Hubert H

Hi halloweenman,
  
 You can listen to all the BBC channels at 320kbps already with the following links, courtesy of Steve Seear;
  
 http://steveseear.org/high-quality-bbc-radio-streams/ - I use either Foobar or JRMC for this content.
  
 I listen to 6 Music occasionally via the 320kbps stream and it is noticeably better, unfortunately I have a slow internet connection so need to use DAB more often than not.
  
 It seems that iPlayer radio also outputs at 320kbps
  
 H.


----------



## gnomen

halloweenman said:


> Just to follow up on this. I tried Pure Music and hated it. It sounded very good, when it worked! The user experience is horrible and the software and remote app are littered with bugs. It is also dependent on iTunes.
> 
> The good news though is that I also tried a free trial of Roon. Here's what I said in the TT forum:
> 
> ...


 

 Ha, ha!  Yes, the user experience is challenging once you go _off piste_, that's for sure.  Out of the box defaults are pretty good, though, and I am not aware of any bugs.  The main design strength of Pure Music IMHO is that it DOES work very well with iTunes: it completely takes over the sound production while allowing iTunes to do all the file management as usual.  So if your library is in iTunes already, you can get audiophile sound without making any other changes.  And you get the bit perfect file delivery you describe with Roon.  How did you find the SQ compared to your previous software?
  
 Roon looks very tempting, but as you say expensive as well.   Would you need to move your music files from iTunes to Roon if you adopted it?
  
 Cheers


----------



## halloweenman

hubert h said:


> Hi halloweenman,
> 
> You can listen to all the BBC channels at 320kbps already with the following links, courtesy of Steve Seear;
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, good to know.
  
 I use the official BBC stream :
 http://a.files.bbci.co.uk/media/live/manifesto/audio/simulcast/hls/uk/sbr_high/ak/bbc_6music.m3u8


----------



## halloweenman

gnomen said:


> Ha, ha!  Yes, the user experience is challenging once you go _off piste_, that's for sure.  Out of the box defaults are pretty good, though, and I am not aware of any bugs.  The main design strength of Pure Music IMHO is that it DOES work very well with iTunes: it completely takes over the sound production while allowing iTunes to do all the file management as usual.  So if your library is in iTunes already, you can get audiophile sound without making any other changes.  And you get the bit perfect file delivery you describe with Roon.  How did you find the SQ compared to your previous software?
> 
> Roon looks very tempting, but as you say expensive as well.   Would you need to move your music files from iTunes to Roon if you adopted it?
> 
> Cheers


 
 Hi Gnomen, both Roon and Audirvana automatically read and playback the itunes library, you don't have to do anything - keep using iTunes as your library.
  
 I'll give you one bug example, the PM remote app kept failing to control the music correctly, all sorts of weird things happened.
  
 As far as sound quality goes, it was difficult to assess as I did not listen for very long after experiencing issues. It did not sound any worse.


----------



## Arpiben

romaz said:


> Here is what Rob had to say about the USB VBUS +5V issue that you believe is a problem:
> 
> "No don't worry about the USB VBUS +5v, as it too is isolated from Dave."
> 
> ...


 
  
 With all due respect, I would like to add the following regarding USB 2.0 cable's caracteristics & impedance:
  
 - cable impedance accuracy matters *only* if you are matching impedances at both cable ends.
  
 USB 2.0 specs are something like 90 Ohms +/- 15% differential for USB cables/PCB lines/Ins & Outs.
 Using a perfect USB 2.0 90 Ohms +/- 1% is, IMHO, a non sense if you have no idea or control of digital player / DAC output/input  impedance tolerances.
 Using an USB 2.0 really compliant with specs is important.
  
 - Rare are the cable manufacturers providing relevant data. By relevant data I am meaning eye pattern at usage bit rates.
 But again, if they provide it will be in the best possible conditions: ex load of 90 Ohms +/- 1% at Input & Output
  
 - You may have a cable in between the USB termination with excellent specs but usually this is spoiled by impedance matching or even cable diameter matching when reaching the USB or micro USB connector....
  
 Regards.


----------



## rkt31

i am not expert but as far as I know in asynchronous data transfer there is little chance of fault in transferring the data . if impedance accuracy has an effect then such cable should not copy the file correctly.


----------



## Arpiben

rkt31 said:


> i am not expert but as far as I know in asynchronous data transfer there is little chance of fault in transferring the data . if impedance accuracy has an effect then such cable should not copy the file correctly.




Regarding data integrity, impedance accuracy is having a greater role when increasing bit rates or cable lengths.
Dealing with short USB2.0 compliant cables you shouldn't have issues.

Pay attention that asynchronous transfer doesn't mean that data is resent after error detection at DAC level...Chord DACs do request the erroneous paquet to be resent when using ASIO Chord driver.

Bad impedance matching increases Jitter even when not altering data integrity.

My point was when looking at impedances matching one should look not only at cable level but also at DAP & DAC.


----------



## JaZZ

After almost one year of ownership I'm still in love with my DAVE. Fantastic sound quality and ultimate reliability. But a few minutes ago it was doing something strange: it reduced the volume continuously by 6 dB, from –15 to –21, within about three seconds, as if somebody was turning the volume knob. I was listening with eyes closed, so couldn't see anybody/anything (I'm definitely alone in my apartement, and the door is locked). BTW, it was around 18:18 CET, and I was listening to Peter Hammill's «Golden Promises» (from «The Storm after the Calm»). Maybe somebody has an explanation?


----------



## romaz

arpiben said:


> With all due respect, I would like to add the following regarding USB 2.0 cable's caracteristics & impedance:
> 
> - cable impedance accuracy matters *only* if you are matching impedances at both cable ends.
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, I agree with you.  I would love to have an eye diagram of my cable in my system at Redbook rates and beyond.  While some things matter more than others, it would seem that everything matters nonetheless and so I have come to value simplicity.  The less moving parts, the better and the shorter the signal path, the better.  I also believe that unless you find and address your bottlenecks, your system will be limited to its weakest link which is often something as simple as a USB cable.  I think Gordon Rankin's point is that if manufacturers aren't abiding by a spec that they're supposed to abide by, then you get unnecessary variances which is why some cables can sound better than others.


----------



## Silvertone4

Some questions on the DAVE:
  
  
 Has anyone experimented with HF Filter setting on the Dave?  What are the implications on the signature sound of the DAC when it's turned ON? 
  
 What am I 'giving up' in performance when using the balanced outputs vs. singled ended?  In other words, am I sacrificing channel separation? noise floor? cross-talk? R and L channel level matching? etc..
  
 Has anyone paired this dac with Ayre preamps?  Could you comment on the sound?
  
  
 Thanks!!


----------



## ubs28

silvertone4 said:


> Some questions on the DAVE:
> 
> 
> Has anyone experimented with HF Filter setting on the Dave?  What are the implications on the signature sound of the DAC when it's turned ON?
> ...




It makes the HD 800 S less bright and it makes the Dave also a bit smoother to me. So I don't hear downsides. But that are simply my ears with the HD 800 S.


----------



## romaz

jazz said:


> After almost one year of ownership I'm still in love with my DAVE. Fantastic sound quality and ultimate reliability. But a few minutes ago it was doing something strange: it reduced the volume continuously by 6 dB, from –15 to –21, within about three seconds, as if somebody was turning the volume knob. I was listening with eyes closed, so couldn't see anybody/anything (I'm definitely alone in my apartement, and the door is locked). BTW, it was around 18:18 CET, and I was listening to Peter Hammill's «Golden Promises» (from «The Storm after the Calm»). Maybe somebody has an explanation?


 
 Marcel, do you think your remote might be misbehaving?


----------



## romaz

silvertone4 said:


> Some questions on the DAVE:
> 
> 
> Has anyone experimented with HF Filter setting on the Dave?  What are the implications on the signature sound of the DAC when it's turned ON?
> ...


 
  
 According to Rob, turning on the HF filter reduces noise floor modulation resulting in a smoother sound but also degrades timing precision.  You will have to decide which you prefer.
  
 In theory, if you are after the best transparency possible with DAVE, the SE outputs are more transparent than the balanced outputs due to the addition of an op amp in the balanced pathway but both sound excellent in my experience.  If your amp sounds better balanced or if you have really good balanced interconnects and not so good RCA interconnects, you might find that you prefer balanced.


----------



## JaZZ

romaz said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > After almost one year of ownership I'm still in love with my DAVE. Fantastic sound quality and ultimate reliability. But a few minutes ago it was doing something strange: it reduced the volume continuously by 6 dB, from –15 to –21, within about three seconds, as if somebody was turning the volume knob. I was listening with eyes closed, so couldn't see anybody/anything (I'm definitely alone in my apartement, and the door is locked). BTW, it was around 18:18 CET, and I was listening to Peter Hammill's «Golden Promises» (from «The Storm after the Calm»). Maybe somebody has an explanation?
> ...


 
  
 Through the walls of the original box where it is stored? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (I don't use it.)


----------



## JaZZ

I can't definitely decide between HF filter on and off, but most of the time prefer it off. The sound is airier and more detailed that way, and still smooth (enough). The difference is extremely subtle, but nevertheless not entirely negligible. I rather feel the difference than I hear it, an A/B comparison shows just minimal difference (although it's certainly real).


----------



## TheAttorney

^ That perfectly summarises my own thoughts on the HF filter.


----------



## romaz

str-1 said:


> romaz - thanks for the thought-provoking post on the SOtM sms200 and the Shunyata HC cables.
> 
> I had been thinking about the sms200 since seeing the Hans Beekhuyzen review and I have just reserved a unit which should be shipping into the UK within the next couple of weeks.  Like the TheAttorney, I too would be interested to learn what you thought about how well the LPS-1 paired with the sms200.  I upgraded my LPS-1 power lead to the Sonore DC-4, which I have found to add more authority and refinement to the mRendu sound (the stock lead sounding a little lean and bright).
> 
> Also, I think I will soon be in a position to take a loan of a Shunyata Alpha HC cable.  A few months ago, after having tried an Alpha Analogue, I contacted Shunyata for their advice on best pairing with the DAVE.  During the course of those exchanges I received replies from two different people at Shunyata with advice that led me to feel the analogue was probably the better pairing compared to the digital cable, but I was also encouraged to try out the Alpha HC cable if I could.  Knowing that you would have been testing them also with your speaker system, can I just check if your positive comments about the Shunyata cables reflected their use with the DAVE with its headphone amp hat on?   I do not have a dedicated mains line for my music system and having one installed is not a realistic option.  Also, I do not see myself feeling able to splash out on a Dinali, so I am wondering just how much benefit I would get from a Shunyata HC cable.


 
 Hi Steve, it was Hans' review that piqued my curiosity as well.  He said just enough things for me to want to try it.  The LPS-1 will drive it fine.  I'm glad you like the Sonore DC-4.  I had a gentleman here in the U.S. craft a custom 12 inch UP-OCC silver DC cable for me with the Oyaide 2.1mm barrels and I have been quite happy with it as well.  The stock DC cable doesn't do the LPS-1 justice.
  
 Regarding the Shunyata Alpha HC, give this one a go if you can.  I suspect it will be preferable to the Analog with your DAVE.  The quality of your mains line (as far as line gauge) may limit what you get with the Alpha HC.  Should you be able to swing the lesser expensive Denali 2000T at some point, the combination may help overcome a compromised mains line.  The pairing is quite remarkable.
  
 Unfortunately, my comments regarding power cables were made with speakers and not headphones.  I have struggled to find interest in my headphones lately although that will change.  My Focal Utopias just arrived yesterday.  My re-worked HFC Trinity Helix arrives on Monday.  HFC will be crafting a set of custom headphone cables with their magnetic conductor for me and so I will be quite interested to see how this headphone cable fares.


----------



## lovethatsound

Hi Romaz
Would be very interested in your opinion 's on the focal utopias.


----------



## Ashrunner

romaz said:


> You have a wonderful setup.  I foresee late nights and not much sleep for you in the coming days.  Congratulations!


 
 This won't come as a surprise to anyone, but wow - had a great night with Dave.  It is 1:30am in San Francisco and I need to get up in five hours but it was worth losing some sleep to spend time with Dave since it was his first night in my home.  On some songs I didn't notice much of a difference between my schiit yggy/rag combo, but on most songs there was a clear, powerful difference.  On some albums, for example most Fleetwood Mac and Pink Floyd that I listened to tonight, I really don't think I could go back to my old set up after listening to the albums on Dave.
  
 Dave and Utopia really pair well, by the way.  I played around with some settings on Dave, for example the cross feed and filtering, but didn't notice much of a difference.  I settled on cross 3 because it sounded a bit more 3D but that may have just been the songs I was playing when I tested it.  No buyers remorse on my end.  Even after only 8 hours, it is clear I'm going to be happy with the purchase.


----------



## phonyx

romaz said:


> Hi Steve, it was Hans' review that piqued my curiosity as well.  He said just enough things for me to want to try it.  The LPS-1 will drive it fine.  I'm glad you like the Sonore DC-4.  I had a gentleman here in the U.S. craft a custom 12 inch UP-OCC silver DC cable for me with the Oyaide 2.1mm barrels and I have been quite happy with it as well.  The stock DC cable doesn't do the LPS-1 justice.
> 
> Regarding the Shunyata Alpha HC, give this one a go if you can.  I suspect it will be preferable to the Analog with your DAVE.  The quality of your mains line (as far as line gauge) may limit what you get with the Alpha HC.  Should you be able to swing the lesser expensive Denali 2000T at some point, the combination may help overcome a compromised mains line.  The pairing is quite remarkable.
> 
> Unfortunately, my comments regarding power cables were made with speakers and not headphones.  I have struggled to find interest in my headphones lately although that will change.  My Focal Utopias just arrived yesterday.  My re-worked HFC Trinity Helix arrives on Monday.  HFC will be crafting a set of custom headphone cables with their magnetic conductor for me and so I will be quite interested to see how this headphone cable fares.


 
  
 Do you just use the Omega monitors with the DAVE in your office when not listening with headphones? Do you direct drive the speakers you use or run the DAVE into a power amp?


----------



## Crgreen

My understanding is that the HF filter was designed to deal with DSD files, but it might have benefits for PCM, which is what most of use play most of the time, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. As a file format, DSD doesn't look like it will ever really take off.

Re: USB cable impedance, I'm a bit confused. Just how critical is it, and if it makes a significant difference why hasn't anyone raised or addressed this issue before, apart from one business which sells hand made cables?


----------



## ubs28

ashrunner said:


> This won't come as a surprise to anyone, but wow - had a great night with Dave.  It is 1:30am in San Francisco and I need to get up in five hours but it was worth losing some sleep to spend time with Dave since it was his first night in my home.  On some songs I didn't notice much of a difference between my schiit yggy/rag combo, but on most songs there was a clear, powerful difference.  On some albums, for example most Fleetwood Mac and Pink Floyd that I listened to tonight, I really don't think I could go back to my old set up after listening to the albums on Dave.
> 
> Dave and Utopia really pair well, by the way.  I played around with some settings on Dave, for example the cross feed and filtering, but didn't notice much of a difference.  I settled on cross 3 because it sounded a bit more 3D but that may have just been the songs I was playing when I tested it.  No buyers remorse on my end.  Even after only 8 hours, it is clear I'm going to be happy with the purchase.


 

 I keep it off. The Focal Utopia needs as much soundstage as possible imo


----------



## yellowblue

After Roys fabulous report on the Omega CAM loudspeakers i decided to order them. They arrived yesterday and I used them first with my Belles 150A V2 poweramp. Sounded OK but the mids were a bit shouty. Today I made a cable (an older DNM loudspeaker cable) with RCA-plugs and plugged it directly into the Dave (like Roy does). And even if the loudspeakers are not fully burnt-in I can say that it sounds fantastic, better than with my old system with power amp, loudspeakers and cables that cost me aboout 6000 dollar. A lot simpler and a lot better.
 My room is 20m2 and I get enough power from the Dave to hear with relatively high volumes. Thank you, Roy!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

silvertone4 said:


> Some questions on the DAVE:
> 
> 
> Has anyone experimented with HF Filter setting on the Dave?  What are the implications on the signature sound of the DAC when it's turned ON?
> ...




Balanced vs Single Ended
What am I giving up with Single Ended? In a word 'dynamics' or at least a reduction in this aspect of the delivery. (I believe the balanced output has twice the current. If so it is understandable really.) I prefer Balanced because the best dynamic and transient rendition will always deliver the best musical involvement. I have tested Chord Sarum Tuned Aray and Avid Reference Black 'balanced' against Chord Sarum Super Aray Single Ended. In both cases the balanced won me over with the greater dynamics and musical involvement despite being inferior cables to the SE cable. I found nothing else to differentiate the two choices. No change in clarity to my ears (on my system).

HF Filter
When I used Sonus Faber Olympica III speakers, I originally had problems with musicality when the Filter was on but I eventually found that this was due to the speakers already being a little to much (bass) for my room size and so when the sound warmed up with the Filter on the dynamics were impeded by wall proximity (to the speaker). Moving the speakers further from the wall brought the musicality back to its previous level. So the problem was my room and speaker size and not the Filter. The Filter definitely warms things up but it does something else which is not immediately obvious:- The music has more ease. It is more natural and relaxed with the Filter on. After a while I found this naturalness had seduced me and I now favour the Filter on. Not sure why it does that but there is something 'right' about it to my ears at least.


----------



## Toolman

I am sure some have used (or are using) this combo, many have asked and some have answered this question...

 How well will DAVE drives some of those power hungry cans such as Abyss and/or LCD-4 all by itself (without passing through another amp)?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Just wish to add to my comments on balanced vs SE clarity. I have also tried Sarum Tuned Aray balanced vs Sarum Super Aray Balanced and the later ones indeed deliver greater clarity and control yet in SIngle Ended guise I just didn't notice the same benefit in my system. This surprised me.


----------



## romaz

daveredref-iii said:


> Balanced vs Single Ended
> What am I giving up with Single Ended? In a word 'dynamics' or at least a reduction in this aspect of the delivery. (I believe the balanced output has twice the current. If so it is understandable really.) I prefer Balanced because the best dynamic and transient rendition will always deliver the best musical involvement. I have tested Chord Sarum Tuned Aray and Avid Reference Black 'balanced' against Chord Sarum Super Aray Single Ended. In both cases the balanced won me over with the greater dynamics and musical involvement despite being inferior cables to the SE cable. I found nothing else to differentiate the two choices. No change in clarity to my ears (on my system).
> 
> HF Filter
> When I used Sonus Faber Olympica III speakers, I originally had problems with musicality when the Filter was on but I eventually found that this was due to the speakers already being a little to much (bass) for my room size and so when the sound warmed up with the Filter on the dynamics were impeded by wall proximity (to the speaker). Moving the speakers further from the wall brought the musicality back to its previous level. So the problem was my room and speaker size and not the Filter. The Filter definitely warms things up but it does something else which is not immediately obvious:- The music has more ease. It is more natural and relaxed with the Filter on. After a while I found this naturalness had seduced me and I now favour the Filter on. Not sure why it does that but there is something 'right' about it to my ears at least.


 
 Balanced output from DAVE has twice the voltage (about 12V rms) compared to SE but because of its much higher impedance (about 32 ohms vs 0.055 ohms), the balanced outputs put out MUCH LESS current.  This is why you can't use the balanced outputs to drive headphones directly.
  
 If you like how balanced sounds vs SE in your system, that's all that matters.


----------



## JaZZ

daveredref-iii said:


> Balanced vs Single Ended
> What am I giving up with Single Ended? In a word 'dynamics' or at least a reduction in this aspect of the delivery.* (I believe the balanced output has twice the current. If so it is understandable really.) *I prefer Balanced because the best dynamic and transient rendition will always deliver the best musical involvement. I have tested Chord Sarum Tuned Aray and Avid Reference Black 'balanced' against Chord Sarum Super Aray Single Ended. In both cases the balanced won me over with the greater dynamics and musical involvement despite being inferior cables to the SE cable. I found nothing else to differentiate the two choices. No change in clarity to my ears (on my system).


 
  
 That's a false conclusion. Twice the current translates to doubled loudness, not doubled dynamics. Valleys and peaks on the recording will cause identical current proportions in both cases. And if you have to turn the volume down for a comparable loudness level, you get the same output current as from the single-ended output (provided identical input sensitivity at the power amp).
  
 However, I recall Rob stating that the balanced connection may sound superior in cases where the DAVE provides the better conversion than the attached amp – which won't be rare, I guess.


----------



## romaz

yellowblue said:


> After Roys fabulous report on the Omega CAM loudspeakers i decided to order them. They arrived yesterday and I used them first with my Belles 150A V2 poweramp. Sounded OK but the mids were a bit shouty. Today I made a cable (an older DNM loudspeaker cable) with RCA-plugs and plugged it directly into the Dave (like Roy does). And even if the loudspeakers are not fully burnt-in I can say that it sounds fantastic, better than with my old system with power amp, loudspeakers and cables that cost me aboout 6000 dollar. A lot simpler and a lot better.
> My room is 20m2 and I get enough power from the Dave to hear with relatively high volumes. Thank you, Roy!


 
 Wow, Ralf.  I never thought anyone else would do as I have but I'm glad someone else is hearing what I am hearing.  Synergy between speakers or headphones and amplifier is so important and somehow, the Alnicos and DAVE's amp is a match made in heaven.  The Alnicos have this natural warmth but also this sultry texture and wonderful bloom. I have not heard a better midrange than from this driver and it gives the impression of being driven by a tube amp even when driven by solid state amps.  While I loved how these speakers sounded with the Nelson Pass First Watt J2, driving them directly with the DAVE is an experience that has been unmatched for me.  The Alnicos are both extremely detailed and highly resolving while also being emotive and seductive, characteristics that are often on opposite ends of a spectrum and not present at the same time and so these speakers are like a freak of nature.  The rich delectable bouquet of details that is presented is unmatched by any headphones I have heard so far but more importantly, there is this wonderful depth and so there is a much truer sense of "being there."  The beauty of these drivers is they are high-efficiency and play well driven by DAVE's 2 watts, the cleanest and most transparent 2 watts a set of speakers will ever see.  Even at midnight whisper levels, the details and nuanced texture is all there.  
  
 While these speakers will play loud, I would have to say this is not their strength.  In a large room, they can sound shouty with the DAVE but at moderate levels in a room of your size or smaller, they can definitely rock out.  While splendid with unamplified acoustical music, I find them just as compelling with rock, pop, EDM, etc as long as you pair them with a good subwoofer.  After trying several, I settled on the JL Audio Fathom F110V2 which utilizes a very fast 10 inch driver.  All Omegas are known for their speed as that is the hallmark of anything that Louis Chochos builds and finding a sub fast enough to keep up isn't easy but this sub, I believe, can keep up even with electrostats but still reach down to 19 Hz (+/- 6dB).  With the most demanding of my organ tracks, this sub maintains all of its integrity.  Another thing a sub like this adds is upper bass fill during quieter listening sessions.  During the times when I prefer to listen at lower volume levels, this is generally when I switch to headphones because you simply lose too much dynamics with speakers at low volumes, especially in the lower registers.  With this sub, however, you can independently increase its gain but also adjust the high pass filter from as low as 30 Hz up to about 100 Hz. Most subs I have heard don't sound good above 40 Hz but the bass quality is so good and tight that even when I start to have this sub provide fill in the 80 Hz region, I don't detect any compromise in SQ.  With the DAVE's RCAs directly feeding the Alnicos and DAVE's XLRs directly feeding the sub, it's as if my DAVE was custom designed for my setup.
  
 While my Focal Utopias are not yet broken in yet, I am enjoying them.  They are the most resolving headphones I've owned and are easily a step up compared to my HD800S even though they sound more closed in than my Sennheisers.  They are not as airy or as musical as my HE1000s nor do they provide the bass levels of my HE1000 or Abyss but I am hoping that with a better headphone cable and with the HFC Trinity Helix, I will grow to enjoy them even more.  
  
 One thing I am experimenting with is pairing the Utopias (and even the Abyss) with my subwoofer.  When you plug a headphone into the 6.35mm headphone jack of the DAVE, DAVE automatically shuts down the output to its RCA and XLR outputs and so it isn't possible to concurrently run a subwoofer with this configuration.  The current HFC prototype headphone device that I have has RCA inputs and so I can actually use my RCA interconnects to plug into this device and then plug my headphones into the other end of the device.  This allows me to drive my headphones and subwoofer at the same time and with open headphones like the Utopias and Abyss, I am finding the combination to be very enjoyable because the bass that this combination provides is not just audibly of higher quality but is also "pound your chest" palpable even when listening at low or moderate levels.  Having been spoiled by what I get with my subwoofer (which is one big reason I haven't had as much desire to listen to my headphones lately), I have to agree that the Abyss, in particular, isn't driven optimally by DAVE's headphone port.  Midrange and treble are wonderful but there's just not enough current output to provide satisfying levels of bass for this very inefficient planar magnetic headphone and so I can better appreciate why some prefer powerful amps for their Abyss but this combination seems to provide the best of both worlds.


----------



## miketlse

If you live in the UK, here is your chance to win a DAVE http://www.whathifi.com/news/win-chord-dave-worth-ps8000


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

jazz said:


> That's a false conclusion. Twice the current translates to doubled loudness, not doubled dynamics. Valleys and peaks on the recording will cause identical current proportions in both cases. And if you have to turn the volume down for a comparable loudness level, you get the same output current as from the single-ended output (provided identical input sensitivity at the power amp).
> 
> However, I recall Rob stating that the balanced connection may sound superior in cases where the DAVE provides the better conversion than the attached amp – which won't be rare, I guess.




Jazz 
As far as I could determine the volume was identical regardless but the dynamics were not.

EDIT: this was badly worded. I didn't notice any change in volume between the two but I have to say that was not where my focus was. The balanced output was clearly more dynamic.


----------



## JaZZ

Dave, I wasn't questioning the sonic result, just the bolded sentence. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (Editing is my profession.)


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Appreciate your point Jazz. My mistake


----------



## ubs28

miketlse said:


> If you live in the UK, here is your chance to win a DAVE http://www.whathifi.com/news/win-chord-dave-worth-ps8000


 

 Wow. Congrats to however wins this. Wish I could join so I can have a 2nd Chord Dave for in the office instead of using the Chord Mojo.


----------



## rkt31

for those residing outside UK , it is not a good news. it could have been a good opportunity for those who are not from UK and can't afford dave.


----------



## miketlse

rkt31 said:


> for those residing outside UK , it is not a good news. it could have been a good opportunity for those who are not from UK and can't afford dave.


 
  
 Yes, but sadly all the What Hifi competitions that I would like to win, also exclude non-UK entrants. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I think that it is Haymarket policy, because they collect all the entrants details, then supply them to the UK based advertisers - presumably Haymarket believe that in a global online world, UK advertisers can only attract online sales from UK readers.


----------



## phonyx

@romaz just wondering do you use the DAVE driving the Omega's in the louge/listening room setup or are they purely a small room / study / home office setup? You use the standmounts or floorstanders?


----------



## jlbrach

toolman said:


> I am sure some have used (or are using) this combo, many have asked and some have answered this question...
> 
> How well will DAVE drives some of those power hungry cans such as Abyss and/or LCD-4 all by itself (without passing through another amp)?


 
 I have the Dave along with the LCD-4 and the Utopia....the Dave drives the Utopia with ease...I use the Dave direct with the LCD-4 on occasions and on other occasions I use my Moon Neo 430.....people seem to be divided as to the Dave and hard to drive HP's...some think it sounds better direct and others think the amp gives it more body and a wider soundstage.....I have never heard the Abyss so I cannot comment on them...I think it all comes down to user preference because the Dave is capable of driving most anything


----------



## Toolman

Thanks for the input. Comparing the Abyss with the Utopia...my appreciation for the ease to drive the Utopia to it's full potential. However Abyss does need a bit more power to sound at it's best.

 I am happily driving both with my Liquid Gold right now, but will hope to get my Dave in a couple of months time. Due to limited desk space, I might not be able to accommodate both piece of equipment, hence my question above


----------



## wisnon

jlbrach said:


> I have the Dave along with the LCD-4 and the Utopia....the Dave drives the Utopia with ease...I use the Dave direct with the LCD-4 on occasions and on other occasions I use my Moon Neo 430.....people seem to be divided as to the Dave and hard to drive HP's...some think it sounds better direct and others think the amp gives it more body and a wider soundstage.....I have never heard the Abyss so I cannot comment on them...I think it all comes down to user preference because the Dave is capable of driving most anything


 

 I won't drive these WONDERFUL  3.5ohm HPs either...The ERGO AMT.
 http://precide.ch/eng/eergo/ergo.htm
  
 Testing out a pair now with the Ergo 2 as well. Man ...these AMTs are GREAT!


----------



## a1uc

I drive the Abyss direct and with the WA5 depends what I am listening to , sometimes
 I wish I would of kept my 430


----------



## Nik

Ok, but do you mean that is only a matter of tastes or the Dave is not perfect for driving the Abyss?


----------



## a1uc

matter of taste for me


----------



## romaz

phonyx said:


> @romaz just wondering do you use the DAVE driving the Omega's in the louge/listening room setup or are they purely a small room / study / home office setup? You use the standmounts or floorstanders?


 
 I use my Omegas in my home office and on top of my large desk in a near field configuration and so regardless of room size, the impact of the room has less bearing.  Unlike my large Sonus Faber Cremonas (which are mid field) and are heavy and spiked to the floor, these speakers are easy to toe in or toe out which provides me easy flexibility in terms of varying my soundstage to my preference.  Properly toed in, I can opt for more pinpoint imaging but with some minor adjusting, I can easily increase my soundstage (both depth and width) by bringing more of the room into play.  This is something that is not possible with headphones nor is it practical with larger speakers.  
  
 The Omegas sit on IsoAcoustic Aperta stands to minimize reflections from my desk.  I use a Symposium Acoustic Svelte Plus platform in between the Aperta stands and my Omegas and I have found these to very effectively dampen unwanted resonances from my speaker enclosures while providing further decoupling from my desk.  I have found them to be more effective than Stillpoints.  This combination of platforms perfectly elevates the Alnico drivers to ear level.  While I enjoy my Sonus Fabers, I enjoy these much more.
  
 For mid field or far field configurations, especially in larger rooms, my compact Omegas will work although I would suggest the larger Omega Super Alnico towers.  They maintain the same high efficiency as my smaller monitors but their larger cabinets can obviously move more air.  For large rooms, I have yet to hear anything as alluring to my personal sensibilities as the Voxativ 9.87s.  They utilize wood cones that are of even higher efficiency.  They can be fitted with ferrite or Alnico magnets.  Field coil configuration is also an option depending on the sound signature you're after.  I have found it much to my preference to tune mostly at the speaker level and have my amp and my sources remains as neutral and transparent as possible.  This is much easier to do with speakers given the greater number of options although it's nice to see high-end headphone options increasing.  I am eager to hear how Voxativ's upcoming headphones will sound.  
  
 The nice thing about working with small companies like Omega or Voxativ is that these speakers can be custom configured much more easily.  Not easy to do with large companies like Sony, B&W, Focal, etc.  With my Omegas, for example, Louis Chochos (the owner) was willing to alter the dimensions of my monitors to my preference so that they fit perfectly in my space.  His only requirement was that I maintain a certain volume.  He further accommodated my preference for a certain pair of low mass Furutech binding posts as well as internal speaker wire (OCC silver/gold alloy).  Because he builds to order and sells direct, I'm sure I would have paid almost double if I had to buy through a dealer and so these speakers cost less than most of my headphones.


----------



## Jawed

jlbrach said:


> people seem to be divided as to the Dave and hard to drive HP's...some think it sounds better direct and others think the amp gives it more body and a wider soundstage



Is a wider soundstage indicative of less distortion in amplification, or is it an artefact of less transparency? Or?...

DAVE has a wider soundstage than Hugo TT, which implies increased transparency in DAVE. But an amp "can't be more transparent than DAVE". Unless, that is, DAVE is losing transparency due to the power it is having to deliver into the headphones. DAVE, in this scenario with an amplifier, gains transparency because DAVE's output is no longer being stressed by a difficult to drive headphone.

For what it's worth, Chord uses LCD-4 at shows running directly off DAVE.


----------



## romaz

a1uc said:


> I drive the Abyss direct and with the WA5 depends what I am listening to , sometimes
> I wish I would of kept my 430


 
 I can appreciate what you're saying.  To my ears, with the Abyss, DAVE direct offers this wonderful transparency and imaging but not quite enough low end grunt.  The Woo with 300Bs offer a bit more power and a more romantic flavor.  The 430HA offers quite a bit more power yielding powerful bass while nicely taming some of the brightness of the Abyss and providing a more diffuse soundstage.
  
 When Chord's digital amp for the DAVE comes out next year, you will have one more option.  The initial 20 watt version should provide the power for headphones similar to the 430HA without compromise in transparency.  Further tuning could be provided through digital equilization or DSP.


----------



## a1uc

Hey , Roy 

You said that just perfect 

With the Abyss, DAVE direct offers this wonderful transparency and imaging but not quite enough low end grunt. The Woo with 300Bs offer a bit more power and a more romantic flavor. The 430HA offers quite a bit more power yielding powerful bass while nicely taming some of the brightness of the Abyss and providing a more diffuse soundstage.


----------



## phonyx

romaz said:


> I use my Omegas in my home office and on top of my large desk in a near field configuration and so regardless of room size, the impact of the room has less bearing.  Unlike my large Sonus Faber Cremonas (which are mid field) and are heavy and spiked to the floor, these speakers are easy to toe in or toe out which provides me easy flexibility in terms of varying my soundstage to my preference.  Properly toed in, I can opt for more pinpoint imaging but with some minor adjusting, I can easily increase my soundstage (both depth and width) by bringing more of the room into play.  This is something that is not possible with headphones nor is it practical with larger speakers.
> 
> The Omegas sit on IsoAcoustic Aperta stands to minimize reflections from my desk.  I use a Symposium Acoustic Svelte Plus platform in between the Aperta stands and my Omegas and I have found these to very effectively dampen unwanted resonances from my speaker enclosures while providing further decoupling from my desk.  I have found them to be more effective than Stillpoints.  This combination of platforms perfectly elevates the Alnico drivers to ear level.  While I enjoy my Sonus Fabers, I enjoy these much more.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I appreciate you taking the time to reply, Romaz, thanks. With a young baby now I'm not able to listen to my loungeroom hifi much, and am spending much more time in my home office but do tire of headphones listening - it was never really my thing and I much prefer speakers. As you'd know, speaker listening with family around or late at night is challenging, as with the low volumes required dynamics are often lost, and it swiftly becomes pointless to continue. What I was trying to build is a nearfield setup similar to yours, but I do not have a DAVE (only a TT) so was planning to use a small Pass Labs XA30.5 (30 Watts Class A) to run from the TT and drive an appropriate speaker. I was thinking the Omega SAM monitor was a good candidate and stumbled on your posts here doing a search on them. 
  
 I don't have a hugely deep desk. I can pull it out from the wall and standmount speakers behind it, though, which may work. I used to do this with monitors when I was mixing music at home years ago. Or I could get a deeper desk, not sure which way would yield better results. What cabinet dimensions did you settle on? 
  
 So I was thinking of Hugo TT > Pass Labs XA30.5 > Omega SAM's on inert stands.
  
 That should be a very enjoyable near field system, and I can resort to headphones if I must at certain times. I am yet to hear some Utopia's but I would like to, if they have similar qualities to my HE1K's but with the dynamic driver qualities the planars lack.
  
 It's funny you mention the Voxative 9.87's. Paired with high quality SET amps (like their 845's) they are stunningly good speakers. Among the best I've heard, as long as you don't need high SPL bass slam and low end extension (they're rolling off below ~40Hz). They now have an additional supplementary dipole bass 'system' to fix that, however.
  
 Robb Watt's hasn't divulged specifics other than to say what he uses for speakers are an 'old german' pair. But anyone who's gone to Munich high-end or similar, knows what the German's can and have done with 1-way's and horns before, which render mids and treble better than basically everything I've heard elsewhere. Voxative and Cessaro come to mind.


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## jlbrach

jawed said:


> Is a wider soundstage indicative of less distortion in amplification, or is it an artefact of less transparency? Or?...
> 
> DAVE has a wider soundstage than Hugo TT, which implies increased transparency in DAVE. But an amp "can't be more transparent than DAVE". Unless, that is, DAVE is losing transparency due to the power it is having to deliver into the headphones. DAVE, in this scenario with an amplifier, gains transparency because DAVE's output is no longer being stressed by a difficult to drive headphone.
> 
> For what it's worth, Chord uses LCD-4 at shows running directly off DAVE.


 
 I did not realize hord shows the Dave with the LCD-4 because it really is a beast to drive properly but damn it is a fantastic HP...I am listening to it right now as I type this after listening to my Utopia in both cases straight from the Dave...when i listen to the LCD-4 I have to push the volume about 20 clicks so the LCD-4 really needs tons of power....I try to go straight out of the Dave with the LCD-4 but there are recordings that need my 430....the 430 is a great am and does give it more bass grunt and just a general feeling of control....that said,it is more transparent straight from the Dave


----------



## thunder 99

I am still discovering the amazing abilities of the DAVE - One thing that constantly strikes me is its ability to render concerts (with classical indian instruments) as if they were occurring a few metres in front of me. Playing around with the DAVE and connecting it to a PC I had two different circuits and both produced different results. I have read that the DAVE is source neutral so I am struggling to explain the differences and what I can do further.
  
 The two circuits are: 
 1) DAVE connected to a laptop running Windows 7 with a lightspeed 10G USB cable.
 2) DAVE connected to a PC running Windows 7 with a 5m USB cable sourced locally here (http://www.krispykables.com.au/products/ADL-Formula-2%252dB-USB-2.0-cable.html) connected to an Audeophileo 2 into a BNC input on the DAVE
  
 In 2), I immediately notice a reduction in microdynamics with the recordings sounding more flatter. Its probably minute but enough for me to notice it and hence not enjoy the live concert type music.
  
 In terms of the differences between the two circuits, I am not sure whether it is because of the USB cable or using an Audeophileo which has resulted in the reduction in the SQ. The USB ports on both laptop/PC are equally non Hifi, I cannot really change the USB cable as that's the only 5m one I could find (which is not very costly to just be used as guesswork) and I am not sure whether an additional reclocker such as Wyred4sound or Uptone Regen will fix the problem.
  
 Any thoughts what I need to do next to be able to make Youtube sound like an actual live performance?
  
 Cheers
 thunder


----------



## theveterans

thunder 99 said:


> I am still discovering the amazing abilities of the DAVE - One thing that constantly strikes me is its ability to render concerts (with classical indian instruments) as if they were occurring a few metres in front of me. Playing around with the DAVE and connecting it to a PC I had two different circuits and both produced different results. I have read that the DAVE is source neutral so I am struggling to explain the differences and what I can do further.
> 
> The two circuits are:
> 1) DAVE connected to a laptop running Windows 7 with a lightspeed 10G USB cable.
> ...


 
  
 I remember that Rob has stated that USB is the best input for his DACs. On other DACs, it's usually I2S or AES/EBU that's the best since their USB implementation is just for convenience, not their priority.


----------



## thunder 99

Thanks theveterans,
  
 Does that mean I have to swap USBs everytime? I wish DAVE had more than one USB input in that case or is there a workaround that by anychance - eg plugging two usb cables into an adaptor of some sort.
 Does that also mean that changing the USB cable/adding in reclockers wont make too much of a difference?
 Thanks


----------



## thunder 99

Thanks theveterans,
  
 Does that mean I have to swap USBs everytime? I wish DAVE had more than one USB input in that case or is there a workaround that by anychance - eg plugging two usb cables into an adaptor of some sort.
 Does that also mean that changing the USB cable/adding in reclockers wont make too much of a difference?
 Thanks


----------



## theveterans

thunder 99 said:


> Thanks theveterans,
> 
> Does that mean I have to swap USBs everytime? I wish DAVE had more than one USB input in that case or is there a workaround that by anychance - eg plugging two usb cables into an adaptor of some sort.
> Does that also mean that changing the USB cable/adding in reclockers wont make too much of a difference?
> Thanks


 
  
  
 USB reclockers IMO makes a subtle change. However, depending on your taste, they may make the sound better or worse for you. As for 2 inputs, can't think of a way other than switching USB cables, or get a better solution than Audiophilleo.


----------



## romaz

phonyx said:


> I appreciate you taking the time to reply, Romaz, thanks. With a young baby now I'm not able to listen to my loungeroom hifi much, and am spending much more time in my home office but do tire of headphones listening - it was never really my thing and I much prefer speakers. As you'd know, speaker listening with family around or late at night is challenging, as with the low volumes required dynamics are often lost, and it swiftly becomes pointless to continue. What I was trying to build is a nearfield setup similar to yours, but I do not have a DAVE (only a TT) so was planning to use a small Pass Labs XA30.5 (30 Watts Class A) to run from the TT and drive an appropriate speaker. I was thinking the Omega SAM monitor was a good candidate and stumbled on your posts here doing a search on them.
> 
> I don't have a hugely deep desk. I can pull it out from the wall and standmount speakers behind it, though, which may work. I used to do this with monitors when I was mixing music at home years ago. Or I could get a deeper desk, not sure which way would yield better results. What cabinet dimensions did you settle on?
> 
> ...




It seems we not only have similar audio sensibilities but also similar life circumstances although instead of a young baby, I have a high school aged son that needs peace and quiet as he studies and a wife who prefers to go to bed much earlier than I do and so for these reasons, my smaller system in my home office gets much more use.

You're in excellent shape with your TT and your XA30.5. According to Louis Chochos, Nelson Pass himself is an Omega customer and whether it be a First Watt or Pass Labs, I believe you will find good synergy with any of the Omegas. These are Louis' preferred solid state amps. Interestingly, they are also Holger Adler's preferred solid state amps for his Voxativs.

You won't need as large a desk as you might imagine to accommodate the Omega Alnicos. If depth or width are an issue, you can go taller if necessary but you will need a minimum of 8 inches of width to fit the Alnico driver into an enclosure. You can opt for one of Omega's smaller ferrite drivers and having owned the smaller Super 3i, I believe you will love them but there is a magical quality to the Alnico magnet that you will not want to miss and so I would suggest you do all you can to accommodate this driver. Audio Note UK incorporates Alnico magnets in their higher end speaker lines beginning at $30k per pair. Voxativ charges $10k for the Alnico option for the 9.87s. To be able to own Alnico drivers for under $2k is unheard of.

The key to maintaining dynamics at low listening levels is a good tuneful subwoofer, not a boomy sub that does one note bass but something fast and tight. Although it isn't advertised, Louis can build you just such a sub using one of his 8 inch drivers for well under $1k that pairs very well with his Alnicos (I used to own one of these) and can provide nice fill down to 28Hz. If you're not heavily into organ music as I am, you may find this sub to be perfectly adequate.

Should you decide one day to move away from your TT and your XA30.5, with the Omega Alnicos, not only can a single DAVE replace them both but I believe you will find that It can do so magnificently.


----------



## romaz

thunder 99 said:


> I am still discovering the amazing abilities of the DAVE - One thing that constantly strikes me is its ability to render concerts (with classical indian instruments) as if they were occurring a few metres in front of me. Playing around with the DAVE and connecting it to a PC I had two different circuits and both produced different results. I have read that the DAVE is source neutral so I am struggling to explain the differences and what I can do further.
> 
> The two circuits are:
> 1) DAVE connected to a laptop running Windows 7 with a lightspeed 10G USB cable.
> ...




It could be a combination of both your 5m USB cable + Audiophilleo but it should be easy enough to find out.

I am currently testing an Audiophilleo 2SE, Audiophilleo 1SE + Pure Power and a customized Audiophilleo 1 SE powered by an LPS1 with my DAVE and while these units are not yet fully broken in, so far, I am underwhelmed. There seems to be a compression effect that makes them sound a bit flat in comparison to USB only. At the same time, there's a good chance you will notice a decline in signal integrity with a 5m USB cable probably due to a combination of factors including impedance mismatch, signal loss, etc. The USB 2.0 spec calls for a maximum cable length of 5 meters due to these reasons and to skirt that maximum length might be ok for laser printers but probably will have some sonic consequences in an audio system.

As a test, do an A/B comparison with your short and long USB cables on your DAVE with one of your computers. If you can't tell any difference between the 2 cables, then you know it's the Audiophilleo that's the problem. If there is a difference and you find that the shorter cable sounds better, then see if your Windows PC has an optical output or else an option to add an optical card. If not, consider replacing your Windows PC with an inexpensive Mac Mini since they all have built in optical outputs and then run a Toslink cable from your Mac Mini to your DAVE. Mapleshades, for example, makes a very good 14 foot optical cable for a little more than $100 and I can verify they work very well at that length. This would further allow you to run both sources without having to swap between 2 different USB cables.


----------



## thunder 99

romaz said:


> It could be a combination of both your 5m USB cable + Audiophilleo but it should be easy enough to find out.
> 
> I am currently testing an Audiophilleo 2SE, Audiophilleo 1SE + Pure Power and a customized Audiophilleo 1 SE powered by an LPS1 with my DAVE and while these units are not yet fully broken in, so far, I am underwhelmed. There seems to be a compression effect that makes them sound a bit flat in comparison to USB only. At the same time, there's a good chance you will notice a decline in signal integrity with a 5m USB cable probably due to a combination of factors including impedance mismatch, signal loss, etc. The USB 2.0 spec calls for a maximum cable length of 5 meters due to these reasons and to skirt that maximum length might be ok for laser printers but probably will have some sonic consequences in an audio system.
> 
> As a test, do an A/B comparison with your short and long USB cables on your DAVE with one of your computers. If you can't tell any difference between the 2 cables, then you know it's the Audiophilleo that's the problem. If there is a difference and you find that the shorter cable sounds better, then see if your Windows PC has an optical output or else an option to add an optical card. If not, consider replacing your Windows PC with an inexpensive Mac Mini since they all have built in optical outputs and then run a Toslink cable from your Mac Mini to your DAVE. Mapleshades, for example, makes a very good 14 foot optical cable for a little more than $100 and I can verify they work very well at that length. This would further allow you to run both sources without having to swap between 2 different USB cables.


 

 Wow that's pretty indepth - Thanks Romaz! 
 Would adding a reclocker to the 5m USB help at all? Or is the bottleneck the BNC input. I have a Audeophileo 2 but sounds like from what you mentioned adding that into the system is the bottleneck so connecting the Audeophileo in any other way wont help in getting any gains.
 Would a $100 optical cable be equal to connecting the DAVE in USB mode which I would really just like to except I dont want to change from one USB to another frequently. The alternative I was thinking was whether a USB adaptor can be used as I would only be using 1 USB input at one time - PC or the Antipodes DX?
 Thanks again.
 Cheers


----------



## halloweenman

halloweenman said:


> Just to follow up on this. I tried Pure Music and hated it. It sounded very good, when it worked! The user experience is horrible and the software and remote app are littered with bugs. It is also dependent on iTunes.
> 
> The good news though is that I also tried a free trial of Roon. Here's what I said in the TT forum:
> 
> ...




Decided not to proceed with purchase of Roon, good as it is the sound quality is no better than Audirvana and I do not need all the extra magazine like info it brings. If it was not so expensive then I would have purchased it.


----------



## romaz

thunder 99 said:


> Wow that's pretty indepth - Thanks Romaz!
> Would adding a reclocker to the 5m USB help at all? Or is the bottleneck the BNC input. I have a Audeophileo 2 but sounds like from what you mentioned adding that into the system is the bottleneck so connecting the Audeophileo in any other way wont help in getting any gains.
> Would a $100 optical cable be equal to connecting the DAVE in USB mode which I would really just like to except I dont want to change from one USB to another frequently. The alternative I was thinking was whether a USB adaptor can be used as I would only be using 1 USB input at one time - PC or the Antipodes DX?
> Thanks again.
> Cheers




One way to get beyond the 5m limitation is to use a USB hub which would allow you to go another 5m. Such hubs are always powered and are effectively signal regernators. A USB Regen or W4S Recovery is nothing more than a USB hub that utilizes a better clock and linear regulators that make them suitable for audiophile use. Such devices are designed to improve signal integrity and while I have not found either of these devices to be helpful with my DAVE and my much shorter USB cable, they could perhaps prove beneficial with your 5m USB cable but only if you find that your 5m cable sounds worse than your shorter cable. If you have a USB Regen or something similar on hand, give it a go and see what you think.

With the Audiophilleos, these are highly regarded USB to SPDIF converters by many and the SE version was specifically designed with Chord DACs in mind which I think is pretty cool. Whether it's because the units I'm testing aren't yet broken in (which is possible) or whether it's because USB just sounds that much better with the DAVE (Rob has said that USB sounds best, optical sounds 2nd best and digital coax sounds worst), I'm not sure.

With my DAVE and using my Mac Pro, which has both a USB and optical output, and using this 14 foot optical cable against a 1 meter USB cable, they both sounded excellent with USB having a slight edge with regards to clarity and depth. If ultimate SQ is your goal, USB is better than optical but not by much and so I wouldn't hesitate to recommend going down this road for YouTube playback. In fact, I often use my Mac Pro for YouTube playback and my Mac Pro is connected to my DAVE via optical.

Regarding a USB adapter, I can't think of how this could work. If you decide you want to switch between 2 USB sources, definitely make the switch at the source and not at your DAVE. Over time, frequent switching will wear out your connectior and it would be best not to wear out the DAVE's USB connector.


----------



## romaz

jawed said:


> Is a wider soundstage indicative of less distortion in amplification, or is it an artefact of less transparency? .




If you mean wider soundstage without increasing depth, in my experience, this is often more due to driver placement. With the HD800, for example, these are known to cast a wide soundstage but not a deep one and most believe it is due to how Sennheiser has angled their drivers. You can accomplish the same thing with speakers by spreading them further apart. 

If you're talking about a bigger soundstage overall (width + depth), I think many factors can influence this including how a recording was made, DAC capability, type and quality of amplification, type of speakers and of course, speaker placement. When you hear it due to an amplifier, it is often because of superior dynamics due to a superior power supply. Superior power delivery will usuallly result in a much more open (less confined) sound where you perceive more air around voices and instruments that is often perceived as a larger soundstage. Amplifier design also matters. Tubes amps are known to be more holographic than their transistor counterparts. Tube types can also impact soundstage. Big tubes like 300Bs can sound cavernous compared to small 45s. Certain speaker designs can naturally do this as well. Omnidirectional speakers (MBL), for example, can create this immersive "music is everywhere" sound that gives the illusion of an infinite soundstage but it is at the expense of focus. Of course, you could also alter your soundstage through DSP. DSP can be used to produce pinpoint imaging and focus but it will generally result in a much smaller soundstage.


----------



## Jawed

I'm asking whether adding an amplifier to DAVE, which apparently increases the width of the soundstage (on headphones), is due to a distortion introduced by the amplifier or because DAVE doesn't have enough power and so DAVE has more distortion feeding the headphones than the amplifier feeding the headphones.

In the first case, distortion is making the soundstage seem wider ("distortion is making a fuzzy, wider, soundstage")

In the second case, distortion is making the soundstage seem narrower ("distortion is reducing transparency, making the soundstage seem narrower")

TT stand-alone has a narrower soundstage than DAVE stand-alone. This must be due to distortion, since we know TT is more distorted than DAVE.

So the implication appears to be that DAVE feeding headphones is more distorted than DAVE + amplifier, because the latter has a wider soundstage. It seems that soundstage width can be used as a measure of transparency/distortion.

---

HD 800, according to most comments I've seen, casts a wider and deeper soundstage than Utopia. Both of these headphones use angled drivers. I don't think angling is the reason for the difference.

On the Utopia thread there's at least one comment implying that the pads themselves are the cause of the soundstage being "small" with Utopia.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/811273/focal-utopia-a-little-elear-impressions-and-discussion/1455#post_13072347



> After testing larger earpads with bigger openings (including the HD800 earpads on the Utopias), alot of that punchiness goes away and it starts sounding more like a typical open back dynamic. On the flip side the soundstage really opens up too.


----------



## phonyx

OK first Dave and TT are not powering headphones in the typical fashion. They do not have output gain stages like an amplifier. Therefore they don't compress the signal or clip the signal like a normal overdriven amplifier does. The output is clean up until there is no attentuation and your speakers/headphones are seeing the full voltage. Second, TT is not 'more distorted' than DAVE. DAVE is class (world?) leading in terms of low noise floor, low intermodulation distortion and original signal reproduction. The TT come's a moderately close second (you need to A/B it against the DAVE to be like oh, right see the DAVE does have better transient timing etc). In addition, distortion doesn't add to a soundstage, it just muddies everything making it really difficult to determine what is going on. 
  
 Soundstage in any studio recorded work is 'painted on' by the engineer. Panning one instrument left and another right, for example. It's fake, and is hard to really judge anything from. If you are listening to something recorded live it's much easier to see a soundstage in your mind (again it's not real, your brain creates it from the audible cues in the sounds received). The more accurate the information received, the more accurately your brain recreates this in your mind. Depth perception is apparently influenced by noise floor and low level signal resolution, and instrument placement left or right/front to back is determined largely by timing of primary sound wave (off the instrument or singer) and subsequent sound wave reflections (from walls, floors etc). From the timing of all these sound waves reaching your ears, your brain determines where the instruments/singers are and other cues like the room you/they're in, the materials the room is made from (reflective like stone, or dull like carpet/plaster etc) or the far lower amplitude of reflections indicating you're in an outdoor venue, for example. All these tiny queues allow your brain to reconstruct the event. So soundstage is a highly complex thing, and that's before you even get to the drivers in your headphones or speakers and how they may be influencing it. 
  
 To try and answer your question about adding an amp widening the sound stage, I'd say the amp is adding a colouration or altering transient timings or other queues such that a wider soundstage is perceived.


----------



## Jawed

phonyx said:


> Second, TT is not 'more distorted' than DAVE.



Yes it is. Otherwise DAVE wouldn't sound better.

Then you say:


> DAVE is class (world?) leading in terms of low noise floor, low intermodulation distortion and original signal reproduction.



So it has lower distortion than TT...

I have A/B'd TT and DAVE:


> The TT come's a moderately close second (you need to A/B it against the DAVE to be like oh, right see the DAVE does have better transient timing etc). In addition, distortion doesn't add to a soundstage, it just muddies everything making it really difficult to determine what is going on.




and DAVE shows wider soundstage.


----------



## x RELIC x

jawed said:


> ...
> 
> So the implication appears to be that *DAVE feeding headphones is more distorted than DAVE + amplifier*, because the latter has a wider soundstage. It seems that soundstage width can be used as a measure of transparency/distortion.
> 
> ...




This is directly against what Rob has been saying, and against all logic. You simply can not add another piece of equipment to something and take away distortion, you can only add to it. And yes, the DAVE has less distortion than the TT. I'm not debating what you are hearing, but I'm suggesting that your conclusions are incorrect as to the differences.


----------



## phonyx

jawed said:


> Yes it is. Otherwise DAVE wouldn't sound better.


 
  
 Ok, fine yes if you want to look at it that 'glass half empty' way. You have a very negative way of phrasing things and I read your statement as you were hearing literal distortion from DAVE (and even more from TT). What I attempted perhaps poorly to say was neither is clipping their outputs when driving headphones (typical distorted sound) or driving full voltage from either RCA or XLR. 
  
 But DAVE doesn't just 'sound better' than TT because it's 'less distorted'. There's a lot more to the picture than that, you've chosen a single performance metric (distortion) and without clarifying what kind of distortion (harmonic, intermodulation etc) laid all the ways DAVE sounds better at its feet. It's a rather simplistic view and you're leaving a lot out.


----------



## JaZZ

I'm pretty sure the larger soundstage provided by some amps is the result of a generally «bigger picture» caused by subtle doses of harmonic distortion. Not least second-order, which also contributes to a stronger, «phatter» bass (according to Rob). I experience it myself to some degree with my amps, but it's identifiable as artificial addition. The larger (particularly deeper) soundstage from the DAVE, on the other hand, is the result of extremely careful signal processing and low modulation noise.


----------



## Jawed

x relic x said:


> jawed said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Both of these things are facts:

An analogue amplifier has more distortion the louder the output signal.

An analogue amplifier has more distortion driving a load that demands more power.

So, it is possible that DAVE has more distortion driving headphones than an amplifier that is added to DAVE. In the latter scenario, DAVE's distortion is the minimum it can be. In this scenario the amplifier might have less distortion driving those headphones, than if DAVE were to drive those headphones directly.

I'm not saying the add on amplifier will always be less distorted. Merely that a headphone that is hard to drive (defined as a headphone that requires high volume setting and/or a headphone that requires more power) might cause DAVE to be more distorted than if an amplifier was used instead.

DAVE's distortion changes just like any other amplifier depending on how it's used and what it's used with.


----------



## rkt31

@romaz, there is a chesky test track in which a group of musicians take rounds of a single stereo mic. if speakers are not set properly ( toe in ) you can't get the effect of group going behind you. there is only one toe in which gets this effect right . that exact toe in angle will be different for different speakers , different room, different distance between speakers , different distance from walls. with my experience I can say that this exact toe in is independent of amplifier type, source type , music type, cable type, listening position etc etc. when you get that test right , the soundstage width you get is the correct one even if it is not very wide for some sources, amp or dac. if someone feels that the lesser soundstage width of a particular amp, dac or source can be compensated by speaker placement (toe out from the exact toe in ), it will only disturb the depth perception and imaging. ( that chesky test track is for that purpose only )


----------



## JaZZ

jawed said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Jawed, I think *«THD and noise at 2.5 volts RMS 0.000015%»* is hard or impossible to beat by any amp, although it's not clear if and to which degree a complex load would raise these figures. But even if we implicate a factor of 10, it's still virtually unachievable.


----------



## Jawed

jazz said:


> I'm pretty sure the larger soundstage provided by some amps is the result of a generally «bigger picture» caused by subtle doses of harmonic distortion.



Until recently, I was assuming that this was the case.

But I think with difficult-to-drive headphones this seems like it might not always be the case. DAVE is affected more by these headphones than some other amplifiers.


----------



## JaZZ

jawed said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty sure the larger soundstage provided by some amps is the result of a generally «bigger picture» caused by subtle doses of harmonic distortion.
> ...


 
  
 That's absolutely possible – I don't own difficult to drive headphones, though. Are you thinking of the Abyss? According to Roy soundstage isn't affected negatively, just bass intensity. Probably not due to harmonic distortion.


----------



## jlbrach

I find the discussions about Dave vs Dave with an amp to be among the most interesting I have read...I have both the Dave and the Moon 430 and to date the most perplexing thing to me has been whether or not to use the 430 along with the Dave when I listen to my LCD-4's...yes,I know it is all about how it sounds and that should be the only thing I consider but sadly I find myself going back and forth and one day thinking straight from the Dave sounds better and the next day I find the 430 with the LCD-4 to be better.....I have no such issue with my Utopia which is easy to drive and sounds just fine with the Dave alone.I wish I could come to a definitive answer so I could stop all the switching back and forth but sadly I doubt I will....bottom line is I know the Dave as a DAC is world class and there are few if any better...I know that the Dave driving my Utopia and Ether Flow and most other HP's I have ever used will drive them wonderfully.On the other hand,I do believe that the Dave falls a bit short when powering hard to drive HP's like the LCD-4 and the HE-6 and perhaps the Abyss....I do hear of an upcoming amp meant to pair with the Dave and that would be quite interesting
  
 I have not gone much beyond 0 thus far when listening to the LCD-4 and my Dave direct,I do wonder how much further can I go before I would encounter clipping or distortion?I have heard conflicting answers with some saying +5 and others saying the design means you could theoretically go as loud as the Dave can achieve without clipping or distortion!


----------



## Jawed

jlbrach said:


> I do hear of an upcoming amp meant to pair with the Dave and that would be quite interesting.



With a bit of luck it'll have a headphone socket!


----------



## romaz

jazz said:


> Jawed, I think *«THD and noise at 2.5 volts RMS 0.000015%»* is hard or impossible to beat by any amp, although it's not clear if and to which degree a complex load would raise these figures. But even if we implicate a factor of 10, it's still virtually unachievable.




JaZZ is correct, DAVE's THD+N remains at 0.000015% irrespective of voltage due to its noiseshaper performance. This lack of variation or modulation of THD+N with signal is the concept behind DAVE's lack of noise floor modulation which in itself another form of audible distortion. So distortion would not be the cause of any perceived soundstage width with DAVE.

Here is what Rob had to say about soundstage width:

"Perceived width is actually an aberration - so when image focus improves, the sensation of width diminishes. Its akin to looking at an image out of focus, then seeing it suddenly in focus - the size of the image gets smaller but you can see things much more accurately. Another way of looking at is perspective. If an instrument gets deeper into the sound stage, it naturally goes back and apparently decreases in width. So when you improve instrument placement focus in the sound stage, the perception of width will decrease.

There is an exception to this rule, in that you can encode sounds to sound wider than the loudspeakers, but this effect (replicating the phase delays and resonances of the earlobes and changing the left right phase) can increase width beyond the loudspeakers - it can also be used to encode height. But these effects are very rare and a bit hit and miss. Its these resonances and phase delays that allow binaural recordings on headphones to work. In this case, when image placement improves, then you get an increase in width and height - but as I said, these effects are very rarely found.

Rob"


----------



## icebear

romaz said:


> JaZZ is correct, DAVE's THD+N remains at 0.000015% irrespective of voltage due to its noiseshaper performance. This lack of variation or modulation of THD+N with signal is the concept behind DAVE's lack of noise floor modulation which in itself another form of audible distortion. So distortion would not be the cause of any perceived soundstage width with DAVE.





> ....


 
  
 What level of THD is audible? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Can anyone in a real world listening room hear the difference between 0.005% THD and 0.000015%?
 I very much doubt that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
_Ref Rob on soundstage width:_
_["Perceived width is actually an aberration - so when image focus improves, the sensation of width diminishes...]_
  
 The width of the recording rooms sound stage doesn't change if the placement of instruments is more upfront of further in the back. Unsharp focus in photography obviously creates a blob of light (oof / bokeh) and when the same object is in focus, then this smearing is eliminated and the sharp area is smaller than the blob of light BUT this will not change the horizontal width of the photograph, only the image width of the particular single object in the scene.
  
 I am sure if at some point there will be an Chord headphone amp then they will come up with arguments why this now all of a sudden will improve everything the Dave did formerly on it's own and there was only the option to degrade from there ... but now with super duper noise FPGA class ABX (with -400db THD simulated on digital level) things have changed fundamentally and with the new amp only now you can reveal what the Dave is capable of. Tongue in cheek mode off


----------



## Jawed

romaz said:


> JaZZ is correct, DAVE's THD+N remains at 0.000015% irrespective of voltage due to its noiseshaper performance.



Unloaded this might be true (though, for example, the measuring equipment can't measure less, so it may be lower, and the variation is hidden). It can't be true once you attach headphones. 

The unknown in this discussion is the effect on distortion when say LCD-4 or Abyss is attached. And whether perceived width is an indicator of distortion.



> This lack of variation or modulation of THD+N with signal is the concept behind DAVE's lack of noise floor modulation which in itself another form of audible distortion.



When I compared TT and DAVE what was shocking was how easy it was to hear noise from TT that seemed to vary with signal. Even varying levels of hiss in a recording caused TT to sound noisier than DAVE. TT seems to exaggerate noise in a recording as well as generally being noisy in its own right. It's not subtle, once you have something to compare with that's better.

DAVE is clearly better. But it might require listening to something better before we can say that DAVE has no audible noise modulation.

For what it's worth, I don't know if what I was hearing was "noise modulation" per se. But I heard a distinct reduction (if not elimination) of this with DAVE.



> So distortion would not be the cause of any perceived soundstage width with DAVE.



As I've already said, there's a large difference in width between DAVE and TT. This can only be due to a difference in distortion, with DAVE rendering much wider. Though not every recording shows an obvious difference - sometimes I heard none.

I listened to both using HD 800 S, a relatively easy load. Though TT does struggle with that as it turns out (certainly not painfully so, but DAVE did highlight TT feeling "phat" and losing control at higher volume).


----------



## JaZZ

We could ask Rob to measure DAVE's distortion spectrum with some popular headphones and some hard to drive ones. But personally I haven't heard any sign of stress with both HD 800 and HE1000 driven by the Hugo (let alons DAVE), even at high volumes. Trusting my ears (and the experiments for objectivizing amplifier sound in the past) I'm absolutely sure that no headphone amp will improve the sound from the DAVE in the form of higher fidelity, with the exception of some hard to drive loads (HE-6, maybe Abyss, less likely LCD-4, but who knows!).


----------



## jlbrach

I own the LCD-4 which is the toughest HP to drive I have owned...I have not had the pleasure of listening to the Abyss....I would be curious to hear from those who have listened to both as to which is harder to drive the Abyss or the LCD-4.....


----------



## kennyb123

phonyx said:


> OK first Dave and TT are not powering headphones in the typical fashion. They do not have output gain stages like an amplifier. Therefore they don't compress the signal or clip the signal like a normal overdriven amplifier does.




Why compare the DAVE to an overdriven amplifier? Some folks seem to be preferring additional amplification when more power is required to drive really difficult loads. 

How can the DAVE be impervious to being overdriven itself? 

If the DAVE can be overdriven, wouldn't distortion be introduced when that occurs? And wouldn't adding amplification in the case of a load that is too much for the DAVE then reduce overall distortion by keeping the DAVE from being overdriven?


----------



## Beolab

jlbrach said:


> I find the discussions about Dave vs Dave with an amp to be among the most interesting I have read...I have both the Dave and the Moon 430 and to date the most perplexing thing to me has been whether or not to use the 430 along with the Dave when I listen to my LCD-4's...yes,I know it is all about how it sounds and that should be the only thing I consider but sadly I find myself going back and forth and one day thinking straight from the Dave sounds better and the next day I find the 430 with the LCD-4 to be better.....I have no such issue with my Utopia which is easy to drive and sounds just fine with the Dave alone.I wish I could come to a definitive answer so I could stop all the switching back and forth but sadly I doubt I will....bottom line is I know the Dave as a DAC is world class and there are few if any better...I know that the Dave driving my Utopia and Ether Flow and most other HP's I have ever used will drive them wonderfully.On the other hand,I do believe that the Dave falls a bit short when powering hard to drive HP's like the LCD-4 and the HE-6 and perhaps the Abyss....I do hear of an upcoming amp meant to pair with the Dave and that would be quite interesting
> 
> I have not gone much beyond 0 thus far when listening to the LCD-4 and my Dave direct,I do wonder how much further can I go before I would encounter clipping or distortion?I have heard conflicting answers with some saying +5 and others saying the design means you could theoretically go as loud as the Dave can achieve without clipping or distortion!




You do not need to guess any more! 

+4 db is fine, at +5 db the DAVE could start to clipp, so do not go any higher than +4 db


----------



## MacedonianHero

jlbrach said:


> I did not realize hord shows the Dave with the LCD-4 because it really is a beast to drive properly but damn it is a fantastic HP...I am listening to it right now as I type this after listening to my Utopia in both cases straight from the Dave...when i listen to the LCD-4 I have to push the volume about 20 clicks so the LCD-4 really needs tons of power....I try to go straight out of the Dave with the LCD-4 but there are recordings that need my 430....the 430 is a great am and does give it more bass grunt and just a general feeling of control....that said,it is more transparent straight from the Dave


 
 They did indeed have on at their booth at RMAF...sounded good, but seemed to be right at the edge with the LCD-4s and I felt I needed a more power.


----------



## x RELIC x

jawed said:


> ...
> 
> For what it's worth, I don't know if what I was hearing was "noise modulation" per se. But I heard a distinct reduction (if not elimination) of this with DAVE.
> As I've already said, there's a large difference in width between DAVE and TT. This can only be due to a difference in distortion, with DAVE rendering much wider. Though not every recording shows an obvious difference - *sometimes I heard none*.
> ...




Given that you don't hear the difference with all recordings then I would surmise that the DAVE isn't adding more distortion but rather _is more transparent_ allowing the cues within the recording that define soundstage to come through easier, therefore you hear a difference. If it was from the hardware adding something then you'd expect to hear the difference on_ every single recording_.

Rob's goal has always been for more transparency and depth so to add distortion for the sake of soundstage simply does not compute with me for the DAVE, his current top end DAC engineering goal.


----------



## isquirrel

I don’t know if any of you are into Dylon, I am not really but he has just won the Nobel prize for Literature, Patti Smith sang one of his most celebrated songs. It certainly bought a few tears to my eyes. Even if you are not into either its worth watching and listening to the lyrics.
  
Oh, what did you see, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what did you see, my darling young one?
I saw a newborn baby with wild wolves all around it
I saw a highway of diamonds with nobody on it
I saw a black branch with blood that kept drippin’
I saw a room full of men with their hammers a-bleedin’
I saw a white ladder all covered with water
I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken
I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children
And it’s a hard, and it’s a hard, it’s a hard, it’s a hard
And it’s a hard rain’s a-gonna fall
  
http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/a-transcendent-patti-smith-accepts-bob-dylans-nobel-prize
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVXQaOhpfJU


----------



## Rob Watts

jazz said:


> jawed said:
> 
> 
> > Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> ...


 
 Loading Dave at 2.5 V RMS with 33 ohms barely makes any difference at all. THD and noise goes from -127 dB to -124 dB, and the only change is an increase in second harmonic. No other amp on the planet is so load tolerant, and it is due to Dave's unique second order noise shaping analogue amplifier - among other things.
  
 The issue of perceived width is complicated. When depth is degraded, and adding an extra stage is guaranteed to degrade depth - you invariably perceive a wider sound-stage. So a increased width is almost always an indication of poorer transparency. The analogy is like a picture that is out of focus - things look bigger, and an out of focus sound-stage will lack depth but appear wider. But increasing width is not always an indication of poor transparency - there are exceptional circumstances when you can perceive out of the box (that is outside of the speakers - to one's side, or behind you) sounds and this is due to encoding of certain resonances, phasing and complex frequency response. Ever wondered how it is with just two ears you can perceive sounds behind you and above? If you cut off your ear lobes, (do not try this at home!) you lose the ability to perceive rearward sounds and height. Its due to the small reflections and resonances in the ear lobe that gives one the perception of height and rear. Now if the brain can accurately separate the sounds of instruments out, and the timing relationship of transients is accurately maintained, then you can better hear the out of the box effects that are very *occasionally* encoded in multi track music. So in the instance when out of the box encoding has been put in, then a better DAC will give better width, height and rear perception. If you listen to classical music, this is never encoded, so an increase in width using classical music is always an indication of poorer transparency. So in 99 times out of 100, a report of better width is just due to poorer sound-staging and worse transparency.
  
 Rob


----------



## rkt31

@rob,yes exactly. this post is just what i have been trying to emphasize in the recent past. one need only two ears to get all the depth perception in the real life scenarios . similarly if properly recorded you need only a stereo mic to portray all the directional cues in the recordings. after all a binaural recording uses only two mics, even if it is a special case. dave with its accurate depth perception portrays those cues in a much more accurate way.


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks, Rob! Now what's going on – metrologically – when a hard to drive headphone like the very insensitive Abyss is perceived as slightly bass-shy driven by the DAVE, whereas other, stronger amps produce a very strong bass (and the measurements indicate that this is closer to the truth)? Some people consider the DAVE very capable with easy loads such as a Focal Utopia or Sennheiser HD 800 and superior to attached headphone amps, but with relatively insensitive headphones like an Audeze LCD-4 they are undecided which configuration be better, or they even lean towards the amp. I take it that in these cases harmonic distortion is still very low (also since the +4 dB limit is respected) – so what other factor is in play here, electrically speaking?


----------



## Nik

Tomorrow I'll receive the Headtrip at my door...
  
  
 The comparison will be head by head:
  
 Vitus SCD 025 MKII
 Dave (alone) via coaxial Odin cable -> Abyss -> my ears
  
 Or 
  
 Vitus SCD 025 MKII
 Headtrip (alone) via rca Odin cables -> Abyss -> my ears 
  
  
 I'll see if really the power of the Dave (alone) is too low for my Abyss...
  
 (I do not add the Headtrip to the Dave, not interested on this because I love my Vitus player...)
  
  
 Stay tuned...
 Nik


----------



## Nik

I have received many PM from different guys here with different opinions about this...
 So I'll give you mine...
  
 See you tomorrow...
  
 Best 
 Nik


----------



## Rob Watts

jazz said:


> rob watts said:
> 
> 
> > Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> ...


 
  
 The abyss is an easy load to drive with an impedance of 46 ohms, so there is no way Dave will run out of current - so you can run Dave at +4dB and the output from Dave will be linear. So assuming you are not running above +4dB, there is plenty of drive in voltage and current available.
  
 The interactions of headphone and outputs are not simple, and for sure a lack of distortion will make it sound brighter, as low order (particularly 2nd) harmonics fatten up the sound. An additional factor is output impedance in terms of damping factor. A high damping factor better controls the drive unit, making the bass sound fast, tight and somewhat leaner. Additionally, low output impedance itself reduces distortion. The load presented by a headphone varies with cone displacement, so the impedance itself varies with amplitude. Now with an amp and cables that have zero impedance, this variation in load has no effect - no increase in distortion. But with a finite cable and amp impedance, you will increase distortion, and because it depends upon bass, this will fatten up the sound too, making the bass much bigger.
  
 Now Dave has only 55 milli ohms of output impedance (0.055 ohms), so it has a substantial damping factor (much lower than any other amp I have seen), which will ensure the bass is tight and accurate; also it will almost eliminate distortion due to load non-linearity (assuming you have a low impedance cable too).
  
 My view is if a headphone is too lean, then use good EQ - or even better, use headphones that innately have more bass to suit your taste. The problem with using distortion to fatten up the sound, is that everything then sounds the same - big and fat. I want my music to be fast, tight and lean when the musician wanted that sound - and big and fat when that was the intent. You can only get that when the system is truly transparent.
  
 Rob


----------



## TheAttorney

I compared a number of TOTL headphones all driven directly by DAVE, and posted in this Stax thread:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/677809/the-stax-thread-iii/10725#post_13082101
  
 Edit: Link seems broken, will fix later


----------



## Nik

rob watts said:


> The abyss is an easy load to drive with an impedance of 46 ohms, so there is no way Dave will run out of current - so you can run Dave at +4dB and the output from Dave will be linear. So assuming you are not running above +4dB, there is plenty of drive in voltage and current available.
> 
> The interactions of headphone and outputs are not simple, and for sure a lack of distortion will make it sound brighter, as low order (particularly 2nd) harmonics fatten up the sound. An additional factor is output impedance in terms of damping factor. A high damping factor better controls the drive unit, making the bass sound fast, tight and somewhat leaner. Additionally, low output impedance itself reduces distortion. The load presented by a headphone varies with cone displacement, so the impedance itself varies with amplitude. Now with an amp and cables that have zero impedance, this variation in load has no effect - no increase in distortion. But with a finite cable and amp impedance, you will increase distortion, and because it depends upon bass, this will fatten up the sound too, making the bass much bigger.
> 
> ...


 
 Simply FANTASTIC, I did not have found any problem to drive the Abyss with Dave alone...
 No problems with bass distortion at all... The lowest volume recording I have is a Classical Brahms's Requiem Mass (Pentatone classic) that I listen with +4 or less ...
 Thanks!


----------



## JaZZ

theattorney said:


> I compared a number of TOTL headphones all driven directly by DAVE, and posted in this Stax thread:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/677809/the-stax-thread-iii/10725#post_13082101
> 
> Edit: Link seems broken, will fix later


 
  
 Works for me without the «http://» in front, though.
  
 I like your result! I'm just determined not to upgrade my HE1000 V1 and be angry about HiFiMan's unwillingness to sell the V2 ear pads.


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> The abyss is an easy load to drive with an impedance of 46 ohms, so there is no way Dave will run out of current - so you can run Dave at +4dB and the output from Dave will be linear. So assuming you are not running above +4dB, there is plenty of drive in voltage and current available.
> 
> The interactions of headphone and outputs are not simple, and for sure a lack of distortion will make it sound brighter, as low order (particularly 2nd) harmonics fatten up the sound. An additional factor is output impedance in terms of damping factor. A high damping factor better controls the drive unit, making the bass sound fast, tight and somewhat leaner. Additionally, low output impedance itself reduces distortion. The load presented by a headphone varies with cone displacement, so the impedance itself varies with amplitude. Now with an amp and cables that have zero impedance, this variation in load has no effect - no increase in distortion. But with a finite cable and amp impedance, you will increase distortion, and because it depends upon bass, this will fatten up the sound too, making the bass much bigger.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the clarifications Rob!
  
 ( Just for your info, the Abyss got the greatest dynamic Bass / low end on the market today in the Ultra High End range, so it is not a numb headphone, so a slight adjustment in the low end for the less sensitive headphones should have bin great as an option in a future upgrade ( i know it will not be totally transparent then, but in some recordings it is needed) 
 This feature should be great for the ones who are not using a PC/MAC + EQ as a source )  
  
 Then if you ever come across the Abyss i recommend a serious listening with DAVE, the synergy is immense ( besides the low end energy)  =)
  
 / Fredrik


----------



## STR-1

theattorney said:


> I compared a number of TOTL headphones all driven directly by DAVE, and posted in this Stax thread:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/677809/the-stax-thread-iii/10725#post_13082101
> 
> Edit: Link seems broken, will fix later



Yes, link works for me too. An interesting shoot-out.

I assume you listened with stock cables. I have both the Utopia and a microRendu/LPS-1. I think the former needs a better cable (I will soon be able to use both Prion and Black Dragon cable with it) and I am getting a SOtM sMS-200, which I expect to be better than the mR, which I feel is a little too hard sounding at times. I've only listened briefly to the HE1000 v2 at my dealer while he took care of something for me and I think my thoughts at the time were close to your assessment. I would need to listen to them again in my system to be sure.


----------



## Mediahound

rob watts said:


> The abyss is an easy load to drive with an impedance of 46 ohms, so there is no way Dave will run out of current - so you can run Dave at +4dB and the output from Dave will be linear. So assuming you are not running above +4dB, there is plenty of drive in voltage and current available.
> 
> The interactions of headphone and outputs are not simple, and for sure a lack of distortion will make it sound brighter, as low order (particularly 2nd) harmonics fatten up the sound. An additional factor is output impedance in terms of damping factor. A high damping factor better controls the drive unit, making the bass sound fast, tight and somewhat leaner. Additionally, low output impedance itself reduces distortion. The load presented by a headphone varies with cone displacement, so the impedance itself varies with amplitude. Now with an amp and cables that have zero impedance, this variation in load has no effect - no increase in distortion. But with a finite cable and amp impedance, you will increase distortion, and because it depends upon bass, this will fatten up the sound too, making the bass much bigger.
> 
> ...


 

 This exactly mirrors my listening observation with the HugoTT versus using a separate amp with it. With the external amp (Cavalli Liquid Carbon), the bass seems more but is sorta one note thump. Direct out of the TT, the bass is more detailed and nuanced.
  
 So The DAVE I believe outputs even more power directly than the HugoTT. I cannot see it not having enough power for virtually any headphones.


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> The Abyss is an easy load to drive with an impedance of 46 ohms, so there is no way Dave will run out of current - so you can run Dave at +4dB and the output from Dave will be linear. So assuming you are not running above +4dB, there is plenty of drive in voltage and current available.


 
  
 That's good to hear! Something that still is in the back of my mind, although I'm fundamentally an «amps are overrated» advocate: What's exactly the benefit from extra-strong or -fast power supplies in audiophile-grade amps – again electrically speaking –, especially considering that the ultra caps in the Hugo TT do have a positive effect in the form of increased «authority» and refinement compared to the Hugo? Isn't there an argumentation gap in favor of additional amping? And what about balanced headphone drive (favored by some, although it's hard to detect a technical advantage)?
  


rob watts said:


> The interactions of headphone and outputs are not simple, and for sure a lack of distortion will make it sound brighter, as low order (particularly 2nd) harmonics fatten up the sound. An additional factor is output impedance in terms of damping factor. *A high damping factor better controls the drive unit, making the bass sound fast, tight and somewhat leaner.* Additionally, low output impedance itself reduces distortion. The load presented by a headphone varies with cone displacement, so the impedance itself varies with amplitude. Now with an amp and cables that have zero impedance, this variation in load has no effect - no increase in distortion. But with a finite cable and amp impedance, you will increase distortion, and because it depends upon bass, this will fatten up the sound too, making the bass much bigger.
> 
> Now Dave has only 55 milli ohms of output impedance (0.055 ohms), so it has a substantial damping factor (much lower than any other amp I have seen), which will ensure the bass is tight and accurate; also it will almost eliminate distortion due to load non-linearity (assuming you have a low impedance cable too).


 
  
 Yes, I agree, but in the case of the Abyss we're talking of a planar magnetic headphone with no fundamental resonance reflected in the impedance response. (Do the impedance variations during membrane movement also apply to planar magnetic headphones?)
  


rob watts said:


> My view is if a headphone is too lean, then use good EQ - or even better, use headphones that innately have more bass to suit your taste. The problem with using distortion to fatten up the sound, is that everything then sounds the same - big and fat. I want my music to be fast, tight and lean when the musician wanted that sound - and big and fat when that was the intent. You can only get that when the system is truly transparent.


 
  
 Indeed, I fully agree with you – as a convinced EQ user and and militant EQ proponent. Because all headphones benefit from equalizing (there's none with a just remotely flat frequency response). A truly linear frequency response (I mean: as linear as it gets) makes the sound smoother, more transparent and less prone to call for euphonic harmonic distortion – it's not just about bright or dark. And it's an illusion to think that there's such a thing as an amp that's just a wire with gain.


----------



## Mediahound

jazz said:


> And what about balanced headphone drive (favored by some, although it's hard to detect a technical advantage)?


 
  
 See:
  


mojo ideas said:


> The primary reason many Dacs have a balanced internal topology is try to overcome switching noise that has been induced into the Dac chips substrate. Balanced circuitry though causes other distortions that should be avoided. Chord Dacs have no substrate switching noise because the switching elements are seperated from the FPGA and more importantly from the analogue circuitry. So because we don't use standard Dac chips that can suffer from these problems. Therefore we do not have no need to used a balanced internal topology so we don't! The balanced analogue outputs are derived externally in analogue form only from single ended ultra low distortion output. I hope that is not too confusing.


----------



## JaZZ

mediahound said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > And what about balanced headphone drive (favored by some, although it's hard to detect a technical advantage)?
> ...


 
  
 Yes, but I was talking of balanced headphone drive, not balanced DAC topology.


----------



## lovethatsound

rob watts said:


> The abyss is an easy load to drive with an impedance of 46 ohms, so there is no way Dave will run out of current - so you can run Dave at +4dB and the output from Dave will be linear. So assuming you are not running above +4dB, there is plenty of drive in voltage and current available.
> 
> The interactions of headphone and outputs are not simple, and for sure a lack of distortion will make it sound brighter, as low order (particularly 2nd) harmonics fatten up the sound. An additional factor is output impedance in terms of damping factor. A high damping factor better controls the drive unit, making the bass sound fast, tight and somewhat leaner. Additionally, low output impedance itself reduces distortion. The load presented by a headphone varies with cone displacement, so the impedance itself varies with amplitude. Now with an amp and cables that have zero impedance, this variation in load has no effect - no increase in distortion. But with a finite cable and amp impedance, you will increase distortion, and because it depends upon bass, this will fatten up the sound too, making the bass much bigger.
> 
> ...


totally agree with you Rob,i think the problem is here is,people want music to sound how they think it should sound,and not how it really sound's.


----------



## jlbrach

rob watts said:


> The abyss is an easy load to drive with an impedance of 46 ohms, so there is no way Dave will run out of current - so you can run Dave at +4dB and the output from Dave will be linear. So assuming you are not running above +4dB, there is plenty of drive in voltage and current available.
> 
> The interactions of headphone and outputs are not simple, and for sure a lack of distortion will make it sound brighter, as low order (particularly 2nd) harmonics fatten up the sound. An additional factor is output impedance in terms of damping factor. A high damping factor better controls the drive unit, making the bass sound fast, tight and somewhat leaner. Additionally, low output impedance itself reduces distortion. The load presented by a headphone varies with cone displacement, so the impedance itself varies with amplitude. Now with an amp and cables that have zero impedance, this variation in load has no effect - no increase in distortion. But with a finite cable and amp impedance, you will increase distortion, and because it depends upon bass, this will fatten up the sound too, making the bass much bigger.
> 
> ...


 
 The abyss is 46 ohms but the LCD-4 is 200 and I must say it is tough to drive,I do wonder what Rob thinks about the LCD-4 with the Dave direct


----------



## Nik

LCD 4
Specifications
Style Open circumaural
Transducer type Planar magnetic
Magnetic arrays Double Fluxor magnets
Magnet type Neodymium
Transducer size 106 mm
Maximum power handling 15W (for 200ms)
Sound pressure level >130dB with 15W
Frequency response 5Hz – 20kHz extended out to 50kHz
Total harmonic distortion <1% through entire frequency range
Impedance 200 ohms
Efficiency 97dB / 1mW
Optimal power requirement 1 – 4W

OPTIMAL POWER 1 - 4W 

Do the Dave provide this optimal power? I think so...


----------



## Music Alchemist

jlbrach said:


> The abyss is 46 ohms but the LCD-4 is 200 and I must say it is tough to drive,I do wonder what Rob thinks about the LCD-4 with the Dave direct


 
  
 Here are the power requirements of both headphones.
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Abyss AB-1266






  
 Audeze LCD-4






  
 As you can see, the Abyss is _far_ harder to drive, primarily due to its much lower sensitivity.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

nik said:


> LCD 4
> Specifications
> Style Open circumaural
> Transducer type Planar magnetic
> ...


 
  
The DAVE, according to Chords site:
  
 1% THD 6.8v RMS with 300Ω (154mW)
 1% THD 6.8v RMS with 33Ω (1.4w)
  
 So that 1.4 watts into 33 ohms.
  
 If we take 1.4watts X (33ohms/200omhs) we get 0.231 watts into the LCD4.
  
 I found the two to pair just fine in practice, however.


----------



## Nik

"The abyss is an easy load to drive with an impedance of 46 ohms, so there is no way Dave will run out of current - so you can run Dave at +4dB and the output from Dave will be linear. So assuming you are not running above +4dB, there is plenty of drive in voltage and current available. "

Current!!!


----------



## bigfatpaulie

I was just observing your "OPTIMAL POWER 1 - 4W" comment.  There was no mention of current, just wattage and that DAVE could provide 'optimal power' as defined by you statment...  I didn't mean to upset you or step on toes.


----------



## Nik

Not my statement, but Rob Watts... 
Not my observation but house specifications of the LCD4...


----------



## bigfatpaulie

I'm not trying to argue with you...  Your post made no mention of it being quoted.  You simply said:
  
_"OPTIMAL POWER 1 - 4W [into the lcd4]
 Do the Dave provide this optimal power? I think so..."_
  
 I just pointed out that based on wattage, no the DAVE falls short.  What you stated I found a little misleading.  I feel it insinuates that DAVE can output 1-4 watts into the LCD4, which is can't.  
 That's all.
  
 As I said, I didn't mean to step on any toes or get anyone upset.


----------



## Music Alchemist

bigfatpaulie said:


> _"OPTIMAL POWER 1 - 4W [into the lcd4]_ _Do the Dave provide this optimal power? I think so..."_
> 
> I just pointed out that based on wattage, no the DAVE falls short.  What you stated I found a little misleading.  I feel it insinuates that DAVE can output 1-4 watts into the LCD4, which is can't.


 
  
 The "optimal power" statement is also misleading because at 97 dB/mW @ 200 ohms the LCD-4 only uses 20 mW to reach 110 dB, 63 mW for 115 db, and 200 mW for 120 dB.


----------



## Jawed

jlbrach said:


> I find the discussions about Dave vs Dave with an amp to be among the most interesting I have read...I have both the Dave and the Moon 430 and to date the most perplexing thing to me has been whether or not to use the 430 along with the Dave when I listen to my LCD-4's...yes,I know it is all about how it sounds and that should be the only thing I consider but sadly I find myself going back and forth and one day thinking straight from the Dave sounds better and the next day I find the 430 with the LCD-4 to be better....



I believe that binaural recordings played through headphones are a great way to quantify a difference between two systems: transparency results in "life sized" rendering of the recorded performance. So I think it's possible to compare two systems using the difference in the way two systems render the size of the space and the distances to the musicians, and the feeling that the performers are present and that they seem to be full size.


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itLxXeyM2aM[/VIDEO]


I'm interested in whether you find a difference between DAVE + LCD-4 and DAVE + Moon 430 + LCD-4. Does one of these two setups sound "bigger" than the other?

Similar for people who have Abyss and the choice of an amplifier or straight from DAVE. Does the sense of scale in a binaural recording differ in these two setups?

I'm also interested in what people find with different headphones when listening to binaural. Does a headphone with a reputation for having a "small" soundstage, such as Focal Utopia, sound "small" compared to headphones that have a "big" soundstage? I suspect Utopia won't sound "small" compared to other headphones when playing binaural.

So, in the end, I'm curious if binaural recordings, which are much better at sounding "transparent" on headphones, are a good way to compare headphone systems. I think so, but I only have my TT and 3 headphones (IEMs, HD 650 and HD 800).


----------



## bigfatpaulie

music alchemist said:


> The "optimal power" statement is also misleading because at 97 dB/mW @ 200 ohms the LCD-4 only uses 20 mW to reach 110 dB, 63 mW for 115 db, and 200 mW for 120 dB.


 
  
 Agreed.


----------



## ubs28

music alchemist said:


> The "optimal power" statement is also misleading because at 97 dB/mW @ 200 ohms the LCD-4 only uses 20 mW to reach 110 dB, 63 mW for 115 db, and 200 mW for 120 dB.


 

 So the Chord Mojo, Hugo and Hugo TT can drive the LCD-4 fine too also then. Unless you want to go listen at 120 db


----------



## ecwl

I have certainly found that different people listen to music at significantly different volume levels. This is almost regardless/independent of whether their system has distortions at high volumes. I found that my general music listening level is somewhere around 60-75dB which means that musical peaks can get to 85-95dB. Most audiophiles I know of generally listen to music at 10-15dB louder than I do. That means their average listening level can be somewhere up to 75-90dB and musical peaks can get to 100-110dB. And then my Chord dealer would once in a while have customers show up at his store and want to listen to music at 10dB louder than that so now we are talking about average volume levels around 85-100dB and with musical peaks reaching 120-130dB. They like to say they want to listen at concert level...
  
 I suspect Chord DAVE has enough drive for most headphones for most people. But I think it really depends on the person...
  
 With all that said, I've found I'm tempted to crank up my Mojo & DAVE because there is so little distortion I can keep on cranking it up without significant distortions. I'm really worried about my hearing. I have to remind myself to turn down the volume once in a while so I won't go deaf.


----------



## ubs28

In my opinion and according to my ears, if you got a very good transparent solid state amplifier, the only time you need to worry about the loss of transparency is with classical music. 
  
 When listening to a violin, the transient response of the Chord Dave directly is more accurate . It's real instruments like violins that made me stop using an external amplifier with the Chord Dave.


----------



## Beolab

ubs28 said:


> So the Chord Mojo, Hugo and Hugo TT can drive the LCD-4 fine too also then. Unless you want to go listen at 120 db




Try to play the LCD-4 @ 120 db, with music on a Hugo or a TT 

What do you think will happen with the impedance when your headphones demands power of the amp to produce a 50hz signal @ 120 db? = impossible

200 Ohms are just a average value. 

The automatic amp/hp calculator are not accurate unfortunately, because it is many more values that matter thug ( we are not listen to pink noise or sinus waves, we listen to music) , but it gives you a guidance direction, but far from accurate tool to relay on.

You need to measure the headphone on the fly with music signal to get a hint of how much power ( volt / current ) the hp's will drawn from the amp.


----------



## Music Alchemist

beolab said:


> Try to play the LCD-4 @ 120 db, with music on a Hugo or a TT
> 
> What do you think will happen with the impedance when your headphones demands power of the amp to produce a 50hz signal @ 120 db? = impossible
> 
> ...


 
  
 All the headphones use the same formulas to calculate their power requirements.
 Technical info here: http://apexhifi.com/specs.html
  
 While it is true that many other factors determine the sound you hear, it is also true that any given headphone is going to use the same amount of power to reach any given SPL (loudness) regardless of the amp. That's just how it works. Increase the power being used (manually via the volume knob or automatically via dynamic peaks in the music) and you increase the loudness, and vice versa. Any power beyond that is never used unless you increase the volume.
  
 The thing is, it's easy to mix up sheer power with all the other aspects of amp design (which have been discussed extensively in this thread) that can alter the sound.
  
 200 ohms is not merely an average value; it's the only value because the impedance of planar magnetic headphones does not fluctuate. Are you implying that it does at high volume? I'd like to see documentation for this.
  
 Yes, you can measure the loudness via an SPL meter and so on, but the same principles and formulas apply. Under most circumstances, it's not likely to get anywhere near 120 dB anyway.


----------



## Beolab

120db spl is not a real life mesurment, it is only in theory, you would need at least 8 times the power to play music at does levels. 

 When i have mesaured my Abyss for example on a Hugo or a Mojo for example they can hit 87 db tops before it starts to clip / distorts, so before we start a debate here, please higlight that the measurings is only @ static pink noise in theory, and not applicable for variable frequencies, also knowned as music.


----------



## Music Alchemist

beolab said:


> 120db spl is not a real life mesurment, it is only in theory, you would need at least 8 times the power to play music at does levels.
> 
> When i have mesaured my Abyss for example on a Hugo or a Mojo for example they can hit 87 db tops before it starts to clip / distorts, so before we start a debate here, please higlight that the measurings is only @ static pink noise in theory, and not applicable for variable frequencies, also knowned as music.


 
  
 The Abyss seems like an enigmatic headphone to me. When I played music with it on the 430HAD (which outputs up to 8 watts at 50 ohms), it distorted badly at times...but that could just be due to the demo unit being abused. It did it most when the pads were too far away from my ears. My point is that this particular issue might be related to the headphone itself distorting at high SPL regardless...but I'm not sure. I do know that some owners experienced distortion even when the amp they used was extremely powerful. One person I know heard extreme bass distortion with the Abyss even with his Wells Headtrip amp. He also noticed the same thing I did: when you push the pads closer to your ears, the distortion is reduced. So the intricacies of the headphone need to be taken into account.


----------



## Beolab

music alchemist said:


> The Abyss seems like an enigmatic headphone to me. When I played music with it on the 430HAD (which outputs up to 8 watts at 50 ohms), it distorted badly at times...but that could just be due to the demo unit being abused. It did it most when the pads were too far away from my ears. My point is that this particular issue might be related to the headphone itself distorting at high SPL regardless...but I'm not sure. I do know that some owners experienced distortion even when the amp they used was extremely powerful. One person I know heard extreme bass distortion with the Abyss even with his Wells Headtrip amp. He also noticed the same thing I did: when you push the pads closer to your ears, the distortion is reduced. So the intricacies of the headphone need to be taken into account.




The Hugo and Mojo where almost @ max vol, so no, the amp clipped, that is a fact. 

I got other amps that can hit db levels of 110-120 before the Abyss starts to wobble / distorts depending on the music and how much distorts the amp are outputting. 

I got many other headphones i can test real life spl cranking with and the Mojo / Hugo / DAVE are small powerhouses, but the DAVE starts to clip @ + 5 db and it dies not play 120 db from the measurements. .


----------



## jlbrach

All i know is when I listen to my Utopia from the Dave directly there is no issue,no problem....when I listen with my LCD-4 they seem to be straining,yes they sound great but they sound as bit underpowered......I prefer to listen direct from the Dave if possible but at times i do feel the need to pair the LCD-4 with my 430....


----------



## Music Alchemist

beolab said:


> I got many other headphones i can test real life spl cranking with and the Mojo / Hugo / DAVE are small powerhouses, but the DAVE starts to clip @ + 5 db and it dies not play 120 db from the measurements. .


 
  
 The Abyss would need over 3 watts at 46 ohms to even reach 120 dB, so of course you're not going to get that with the DAVE alone. (Which only outputs up to 1.4 watts at 33 ohms.) But like I mentioned, it's not likely you're ever going to need anything that loud unless you're listening at dangerously high volumes.


----------



## Beolab

Lesser Hz cycles / s = higher resistance , equals higher demand of power 

And still it is just a calculation in theory with a static noise you are refering to, not a real life measure,( Why would Audeze recommend 1-4 watts if their headphone just needed 0.2 watts for max SPL do you think? Then we can just buy ourself a Iphone 6+ and try to play @ 110 db with music signal and be happy, just because the calculator are based on a static ~180Hz signal. ) 

So we rest this case and have a laugh instead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkZPj9F0y18



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkZPj9F0y18


----------



## TSAVJason

Attention Head-fires!!! 

Please read this carefully, this is for US and Canadians only.

If you purchased a Chord DAVE or got a quote to purchase a DAVE from the U.K. or any other country a group of us DAVE dealers would like to know if we can get a copy of the quote or receipt. 

Our Mission; 

Is to campaign the North American distributor to drop his price and make the DAVE more affordable in the North American market. Any written proof of a purchase or promise to purchase from another country at lower prices than the NA market is a helpful tool in this campaign. The U.K. DAVE dealers have been real low on the price so we think most of these deals from there will get us the price reduction we are campaigning for. Thanks All!


----------



## Mediahound

beolab said:


> Why on earth would Audeze recommend 1-4 watts if their headphone just needed 0.2 watts for max SPL do you think?


 
  
 To try to sell you one of their amps?


----------



## AFWannabe

I think everyone is missing a crucial factor in the capability to drive headphones.
Let's make a parallel with cars.
If one wants to reach a certain speed, initially the engine has to overcome the inertia and rolling resistance, and as speed increases, aerodinamic resistance too.
The same with headphones. The more air they have to move the more resistance they offer to the amp, along with other resistances.
Imagine your car has only one gear, more specifically direct drive. You can opt between two engines. Both have 100hp, but one at 10000rpm (low torque) and the other at 3000rpm (high torque).
Both engines will allow the car to reach the same top speed, but with the high torque engine it will get there much quicker, and so the car will feel more powerful and Dinamic.
Now imagine there's a third engine choice with high torque, but it also revs up to 10000rpm!

So with headphones, two amps with the same power output can sound very different, if one is much slower to deliver the current and/or voltage needed to reach the SPL peaks.
Like with a car engine, the more power and torque the better.
Especially if the car is very heavy and with poor aerodynamics, like the Abyss and LCD-4...


----------



## Mython

tsavjason said:


> Attention Head-fires!!!
> 
> Please read this carefully, this is for US and Canadians only.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 I'm trying to be sympathetic, Jason, but when I recall what happened with Hugo, and how UK head-fiers suffered because of US dealers spitting their dummies out... nope... sorry, but my heart just isn't bleeding, right now


----------



## Music Alchemist

afwannabe said:


> So with headphones, two amps with the same power output can sound very different, if one is much slower to deliver the current and/or voltage needed to reach the SPL peaks.


 
  
 The "speed" of amps is something I'd like to look into, but there doesn't seem to be much reliable info on it. I occasionally see certain amps described as having a faster impulse/transient response...but measurements relating to that are scarce.


----------



## TSAVJason

mython said:


> I'm trying to be sympathetic, Jason, but when I recall what happened with Hugo, and how UK head-fiers suffered because of US dealers spitting their dummies out... nope... sorry, but my heart just isn't bleeding, right now


No worries. I'm not aware of any issues with the Hugo and I'm not sure how the North American buyers wouldn't want to buy at a more reasonable price hurts the U.K. buyers but I'm sure you have your reasons. The problem is the U.K. has a retail price equal to $10k. Average sell price when they ship it here is $9100. We are hoping to get the distributor to give us the same retail so we DAVE dealers here can sell to you guys with a full factory warranty at the same pricing. I don't see how that hurts the U.K. dealers or buyers but like I said I'm sure you have your reasons.


----------



## Music Alchemist

tsavjason said:


> No worries. I'm not aware of any issues with the Hugo and I'm not sure how the North American buyers wouldn't want to buy at a more reasonable price hurts the U.K. buyers but I'm sure you have your reasons. The problem is the U.K. has a retail price equal to $10k. Average sell price when they ship it here is $9100. We are hoping to get the distributor to give us the same retail so we DAVE dealers here can sell to you guys with a full factory warranty at the same pricing. I don't see how that hurts the U.K. dealers or buyers but like I said I'm sure you have your reasons.


 
  
 The retail price in the UK includes the taxes they have as well.
  
 US residents can purchase it here for about $8,400, then pick it up from the UK and bring it to the US themselves. Import tax in the US isn't high either.
  
 So American dealers have it rough...personally I would only buy from them if they could offer an equal or lower price.


----------



## TSAVJason

music alchemist said:


> The retail price in the UK includes the taxes they have as well.
> 
> US residents can purchase it here for about $8,400, then pick it up from the UK and bring it to the US themselves. Import tax in the US isn't high either.
> 
> So American dealers have it rough...personally I would only buy from them if they could offer an even lower price.


 Yeah and when it comes from the U.K. serials it has to be sent back to the U.K. to get warranty. I think we in NA are getting gangked. It's a great product and being a manufacturer myself I know we can get better pricing here. The 5 of us are willing to fight the fight if you NA owners can help us prove that sales are being lost to other territories. It's not all about price on our end, it's about access at fair pricing here in NA. On a b2b basis the taxes and money exchange don't add up to a $2k - $3.3k retail difference. Based on margin it shouldn't be more than $500 - $700 difference. You the consumer and us as dealers, I think going after this issue is an important thing to do so we all win.


----------



## Toolman

When push comes to shove, Chord will have to make a decision ...this will either serve to lower the retail prices in the US or increase the retail prices in the UK


----------



## Mython

This seems more related to the distributor part of the equation than Chord themselves, Toolman.
  
  
  
 Anyway, I'm sure things will pan out OK for all concerned, in the not-too-distant future.


----------



## TSAVJason

mython said:


> This seems more related to the distributor part of the equation than Chord themselves, Toolman.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I'm sure things will pan out OK for all concerned, in the not-too-distant future.


Yes sir! It isn't making anyone the bad guy. It's about getting the price here closer or the same as theirs. We definitely don't want Chord in other places to raise the price. We want the NA prices to be the same as theirs. This formula works for all, hurts no one or any market. One thing for sure is there would many more Chord owners I'm sure of that. If you can help it's appreciated otherwise Happy Holidays everyone!


----------



## jelt2359

That makes sense but bear in mind the link sent was specifically for collection in London only. If you have the time and money to go to London, sure. Besides, if you need the DAVE serviced, would you have to drop it off in person too?

Anyway prices seem to vary a lot even in the U.K. This other place sells it for a pretty penny more:
http://hifilounge.co.uk/chord-dave-dac

In another discussion like this I've experienced, the end result was the lower one raising prices- not vice versa. Hopefully that's not how this story is going to end...


----------



## TSAVJason

jelt2359 said:


> That makes sense but bear in mind the link sent was specifically for collection in London only. If you have the time and money to go to London, sure. Besides, if you need the DAVE serviced, would you have to drop it off in person too?
> 
> Anyway prices seem to vary a lot even in the U.K. This other place sells it for a pretty penny more:
> http://hifilounge.co.uk/chord-dave-dac
> ...


Chord doesn't want or allow any authorized dealer to ship into other markets. It stresses the relationship with the distributors in those territories. It happens, we all know it and I for one "get it". So since the distributors get to call their price in their individual territories ....you see the problem. We really want the prices here in NA to be reduced. I for one believe the price elsewhere is more commensurate to the value of the products.


----------



## jelt2359

tsavjason said:


> Chord doesn't want or allow any authorized dealer to ship into other markets. It stresses the relationship with the distributors in those territories. It happens, we all know it and I for one "get it". So since the distributors get to call their price in their individual territories ....you see the problem. We really want the prices here in NA to be reduced. I for one believe the price elsewhere is more commensurate to the value of the products.


 
 All good goals. Not sure about the price to value ratio though- that is really personal.Perhaps the success of the Mojo though has opened Chord's eyes to what is possible with great value products.


----------



## Mojo ideas

rob watts said:


> Loading Dave at 2.5 V RMS with 33 ohms barely makes any difference at all. THD and noise goes from -127 dB to -124 dB, and the only change is an increase in second harmonic. No other amp on the planet is so load intolerant, and it is due to Dave's unique second order noise shaping analogue amplifier - among other things.
> 
> The issue of perceived width is complicated. When depth is degraded, and adding an extra stage is guaranteed to degrade depth - you invariably perceive a wider sound-stage. So a increased width is almost always an indication of poorer transparency. The analogy is like a picture that is out of focus - things look bigger, and an out of focus sound-stage will lack depth but appear wider. But increasing width is not always an indication of poor transparency - there are exceptional circumstances when you can perceive out of the box (that is outside of the speakers - to one's side, or behind you) sounds and this is due to encoding of certain resonances, phasing and complex frequency response. Ever wondered how it is with just two ears you can perceive sounds behind you and above? If you cut off your ear lobes, (do not try this at home!) you lose the ability to perceive rearward sounds and height. Its due to the small reflections and resonances in the ear lobe that gives one the perception of height and rear. Now if the brain can accurately separate the sounds of instruments out, and the timing relationship of transients is accurately maintained, then you can better hear the out of the box effects that are very *occasionally* encoded in multi track music. So in the instance when out of the box encoding has been put in, then a better DAC will give better width, height and rear perception. If you listen to classical music, this is never encoded, so an increase in width using classical music is always an indication of poorer transparency. So in 99 times out of 100, a report of better width is just due to poorer sound-staging and worse transparency.
> 
> Rob


 So Rob when do you think that those poor deprived people who quite naturally don't have earlobes will be able to claim social benefits for partial loss of hearing.


----------



## Mojo ideas

toolman said:


> When push comes to shove, Chord will have to make a decision ...this will either serve to lower the retail prices in the US or increase the retail prices in the UK


We don't directly control the US price, I'm sorry but we can only make recommendations. It's up to the US distributor to follow our advise or not if he chooses too.


----------



## Music Alchemist

jelt2359 said:


> That makes sense but bear in mind the link sent was specifically for collection in London only. If you have the time and money to go to London, sure. Besides, if you need the DAVE serviced, would you have to drop it off in person too?
> 
> Anyway prices seem to vary a lot even in the U.K. This other place sells it for a pretty penny more:
> http://hifilounge.co.uk/chord-dave-dac


 
  
 Which reminds me...if someone in the US buys a DAVE from the UK, then brings it to the US and pays import tax...and then needs warranty service and has to bring it back to the UK...how does import tax work bringing it back and forth between countries multiple times? (Or even if you just ship it.)
  
 That higher price is with VAT included, for UK residents...which does not apply to those in the US. If you select UK as the country in the options on that other link, it will show the same higher price.


----------



## PhilW

Their is no import tax for repairs. It's a specific harmonisation code for repairs.


----------



## TSAVJason

philw said:


> Their is no import tax for repairs. It's a specific harmonisation code for repairs.


Correct just the SHIPPING COST, insurance cost and worse TIME, a LONG TIME.


----------



## Articnoise

music alchemist said:


> Here are the power requirements of both headphones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  

 Different manufactures measure efficiency differently. The efficiency/sensitivity from different companies are therefore not directly comparable.  

  

 LCD-4 need 482mVrms to reach 90dBspl

  

 Abyss, need 320mVrms and 2.14mW to achieve 90dBspl

  

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/technologically-impressive-lcd-4-planar-magnetic-headphone-measurements#4espkOLEI8pI2TCh.97 

  

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/jps-labs-abyss-ab-1266-planar-magnetic-headphones-measurements#gGzKxKyZvuVZTAWs.97


----------



## Mython

mojo ideas said:


> toolman said:
> 
> 
> > When push comes to shove, Chord will have to make a decision ...this will either serve to lower the retail prices in the US or increase the retail prices in the UK
> ...


 
  
  
 From the Mojo thread, 6 weeks ago:
  


mojo ideas said:


> lamosca said:
> 
> 
> > .... we've been pushing our distributor in the USA for weeks to bring his prices more into line with the UKs new financial reality.


 
  
 So, it's clearly not that Chord don't care; it's just that they can't, realistically, _force _the issue.
  
 Something else to consider is that although DAVE is manufactured in the UK, many of the components utilised within are purchased from outside the UK, so the cost of manufacture will go up, before long, and thus, the cost of the product may do, too, so the current USA vs UK price differential may not necessarily remain quite the same, anyway.
  
  
  
  
 Back to DAVE... I know I've asked this before, but nobody (that I can recall) directly responded, so I'll ask one more time:
  
 Is there anyone, here, who owns DAVE and who uses dipole loudspeakers?
  
 Given that this is a headphone-centric forum, I realise that the chances of the above are rather slim, but it doesn't stop me being curious about it.
  
 .


----------



## Sonic77

What about the Mass Drop sale that was supposed to happen? Why weren't they allowed to lower the prices?


----------



## Mython

sonic77 said:


> What about the Mass Drop sale that was supposed to happen? Why weren't they allowed to lower the prices?


 
  
  
  
  


Spoiler: JF has occasionally touched on this topic, in the Mojo thread






mojo ideas said:


> From John Franks managing Director of Chord. We are currently looking into how or where Mass drop have obtained the unit in their photo or other units resold to them without our knowledge. I can confirm that we at Chord Electronics ltd have had no discussions with this retail company. Therefore I doubt they can supply any numbers of units unless we wish them too do so . As far as I'm concerned, we don't! I hope that is clear enough for everyone.


 
  


mojo ideas said:


> cyclops214 said:
> 
> 
> > Massdrop makes their deals with the manufacturer directly so it should not be a problem.
> ...


 
  


mojo ideas said:


> brent75 said:
> 
> 
> > I just saw this. I'd love to know if this time around it's "in agreement/collaboration/endorsed by" Chord.
> ...


 
  


mojo ideas said:


> jakichan said:
> 
> 
> > To be honest, having you hate on Massdrop doesn't help me want to buy your product.  I'm loving my M9XX and my K7XX, and other things I've bought from Massdrop.  I wish I had gotten in on those Fostex headphones.
> ...


 
  


mojo ideas said:


> brent75 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I agree. It appears Chord wants one of us to check their Mojo-purchased-via-Massdrop and give them the serial number, so they (Chord) can find out what distributor/reseller supplied to Massdrop.
> ...


 
  


  
  
 In addition to the above-discussed factors, one should consider that if hundreds of people buy a Chord product from Massdrop, they may unfairly blame Chord, at some point in the future, if they suddenly come to the realisation that they have to ship their product internationally, just to get a warranty issue processed, because their contract is with the retailer, not with Chord themselves, but Massdrop might not make this explicitly clear, at the point of sale.
  
  
 .


----------



## Music Alchemist

articnoise said:


> Different manufactures measure efficiency differently. The efficiency/sensitivity from different companies are therefore not directly comparable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Both manufacturers list the sensitivity in dB/mW on their websites. (Whereas Sennheiser usually lists it in dB/V.) As far as I can tell, dB/mW means dB/mW.
  
 Going from the manufacturer's own specs, I get these numbers:
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Abyss






  
 Audeze






  
 Tyll does not disclose where or how he got the numbers for the Audeze, but I'm just showing what the math shows.


----------



## Sonic77

mython said:


> Spoiler: JF has occasionally touched on this topic, in the Mojo thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Ahhhhh I see, thanks for the explanation.
  
 I had to send in my Dave for a repair and Chord was first class all the way, so I see the value in having bought it from an authorized seller, it made everything smooth.


----------



## Jawed

sonic77 said:


> I had to send in my Dave for a repair



Why did your DAVE need repairing?


----------



## Sonic77

jawed said:


> Why did your DAVE need repairing?


I broke it


----------



## TSAVJason

sonic77 said:


> I broke it


Hahahaha I love it! A totally candid and honest answer!


----------



## Sonic77

tsavjason said:


> Hahahaha I love it! A totally candid and honest answer!


 

 ​In situations like that it's better to be honest, people will be more understanding and helpful if your honest, then if you lie, I have found that people can see thru lies.


----------



## Mython

sonic77 said:


> tsavjason said:
> 
> 
> > Hahahaha I love it! A totally candid and honest answer!
> ...


 
  
  
 From the above, I surmise that you are very probably:
  
 1) male
  
 2) married
  
 3) wiser, now, than you used to be, when you were single


----------



## Sonic77

mython said:


> From the above, I surmise that you are very probably:
> 
> 1) male
> 
> ...


Yes to all ☺


----------



## Mython

I forgot to add:
  
 4) you earned your wisdom the hard way!
  
  
 LOL


----------



## Sonic77

mython said:


> I forgot to add:
> 
> 4) you earned your wisdom the hard way!
> 
> ...


That's me, but believe me those lesson's last a lifetime.


----------



## Mython

If you were 'permitted' to buy DAVE, then you must be doing something right


----------



## miketlse

mojo ideas said:


> So Rob when do you think that those poor deprived people who quite naturally don't have earlobes will be able to claim social benefits for partial loss of hearing.


 
  
 It is only a matter of time before some lawyer tries to accuse Rob of lobism.


----------



## aRRR

The real question is , how did you manage to break it


----------



## Sonic77

arrr said:


> The real question is , how did you manage to break it


 

 My dog eat it...........doh!!!!


----------



## Beolab

music alchemist said:


> Both manufacturers list the sensitivity in dB/mW on their websites. (Whereas Sennheiser usually lists it in dB/V.) As far as I can tell, dB/mW means dB/mW.
> 
> Going from the manufacturer's own specs, I get these numbers:
> 
> ...




OT: 

The manufactures are just showing an average mid value of the sensitivity and impedance, it is not static as the calculator are showing. 

Then they could also be measured and published differently even that it says db/mW on both!, so you cant compare them yet, its like comparing an apple and a pear , so for the clarification in this matter i have
e-mailed Audeze and Joe @ Jps about the measuring they display on their sites. 

We all believe in mathematics, but there is some missing bits in this crime investigation...


----------



## Mediahound

arrr said:


> The real question is , how did you manage to break it


 
  
 Yeah, I thought they could withstand even a tank:


----------



## Mojo ideas

sonic77 said:


> My dog eat it...........doh!!!!


 Terrible when that happens use to happen quiet often to my school homework and.... I didn't even 
Have a dog at home. Had to go out find a stray and feed it to him!


----------



## bmichels

mediahound said:


> Yeah, I thought they could withstand even a tank:




  
 OK but... will the Tank withstand the HUGO ?


----------



## Mediahound

bmichels said:


> OK but... will the Tank withstand the HUGO ?




Watch the video all the way through.


----------



## Sonic77

Quote: 





mojo ideas said:


> Terrible when that happens use to happen quiet often to my school homework and.... I didn't even
> Have a dog at home. Had to go out find a stray and feed it to him!


----------



## Crgreen

Tried it with my DAVE - tank's a write-off.


----------



## 7ryder

Well, it looks like I'm joining the club - my black DAVE will be in my hands sometime next week.
  
 Question for those of you that have purchased the stand - is it just purty looking or is there any sound quality benefit?
  
 Thanks in advance,
  
 ChrisG


----------



## Mython

7ryder said:


> Question for those of you that have purchased the stand - is it just purty looking or is there any sound quality benefit?


 
  
  
 You must be new around here!
  
 Audiophiles cannot be trusted with questions like that


----------



## 7ryder

mython said:


> You must be new around here!
> 
> Audiophiles cannot be trusted with questions like that


 
 Ha! guess I deserve that. At any rate, I'm hoping to get some feedback on whether or not there really is some isolation benefits from the stand. I mean it looks cool, but it is a lot of money...especially if Stillpoints or something similar are better (and cheaper).


----------



## TSAVJason

7ryder said:


> Ha! guess I deserve that. At any rate, I'm hoping to get some feedback on whether or not there really is some isolation benefits from the stand. I mean it looks cool, but it is a lot of money...especially if Stillpoints or something similar are better (and cheaper).


The DAVE stand from Chord doesn't have any significant isolation aspects that I can establish by looking at our demo. It's pretty and it is certainly DAVE specific. The rubber feet on the legs seem to be all you get.


----------



## miketlse

7ryder said:


> Well, it looks like I'm joining the club - my black DAVE will be in my hands sometime next week.
> 
> Question for those of you that have purchased the stand - is it just purty looking or is there any sound quality benefit?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Rob watts claims that there are benefits, but no audiophiles appreciated my british sense of humour.
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/5550#post_12983691


----------



## 7ryder

tsavjason said:


> The DAVE stand from Chord doesn't have any significant isolation aspects that I can establish by looking at our demo. It's pretty and it is certainly DAVE specific. The rubber feet on the legs seem to be all you get.


 
 Thanks and from everything I've read, rubber feet don't much for isolation


----------



## bmichels

7ryder said:


> Thanks and from everything I've read, rubber feet don't much for isolation


 
  
 why not trying feets like those ? I use 3 of them under my BHSE and also 1 positioned upside down on top of the HUGO


----------



## TSAVJason

7ryder said:


> Thanks and from everything I've read, rubber feet don't much for isolation


Well it happens to be one of my expertise and I have to agree, you're right rubber feet don't do much for isolation. But to be sure, I do like the way it saddled the DAVE very nicely and it does look much better than simply setting the DAVE on a shelf or desk top. IMO


----------



## 7ryder

bmichels said:


> why not trying feets like those ? I use 3 of them under my BHSE and also 1 positioned upside down on top of the HUGO


 
 Those are similar to the Stillpoints which is prolly what I'll do. I can't see spending $2500+ for the Chord stand if it is only for aesthetics. I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid...much...


----------



## 7ryder

tsavjason said:


> Well it happens to be one of my expertise and I have to agree, you're right rubber feet don't do much for isolation. But to be sure, I do like the way it saddled the DAVE very nicely and it does look much better than simply setting the DAVE on a shelf or desk top. IMO


 
 Yeah, I agree, but it is a lot of coin for what is essentially cosmetics.


----------



## TSAVJason

7ryder said:


> Yeah, I agree, but it is a lot of coin for what is essentially cosmetics.


No arguement from me on that point. It's likely close to the $1200 price range to get a set of proper isolation feet. I would not be recommending stillpoints.


----------



## TSAVJason

7ryder said:


> Yeah, I agree, but it is a lot of coin for what is essentially cosmetics.


Aperta 300 by ISO-Acoustics is under $500 and will definitely do the job. It's original application is speaker isolation. We tested it on electronics isolation and it works extraordinarily well.  ok so we tried it on the Dave and unfortunately the Dave is too short from front to back to use the Iso-acoustics.


----------



## 7ryder

Jason,
 Thanks for the suggestion and also for checking out whether or not DAVE would fit on the stand.


----------



## lovethatsound

tsavjason said:


> Well it happens to be one of my expertise and I have to agree, you're right rubber feet don't do much for isolation. But to be sure, I do like the way it saddled the DAVE very nicely and it does look much better than simply setting the DAVE on a shelf or desk top. IMO


strange thing to say . Rubber is use on all sorts of suspension.eg,car,cycle's and so on☺


----------



## Crgreen

I use three Avid sorthabane isoloators under my Dave - pointy side up.


----------



## TSAVJason

lovethatsound said:


> strange thing to say . Rubber is use on all sorts of suspension.eg,car,cycle's and so on☺


 The use in your examples are different however note that both the individual I was responding to and I used the word "much". There are better technologies to isolate audio products.


----------



## Mython

lovethatsound said:


> tsavjason said:
> 
> 
> > Well it happens to be one of my expertise and I have to agree, you're right rubber feet don't do much for isolation. But to be sure, I do like the way it saddled the DAVE very nicely and it does look much better than simply setting the DAVE on a shelf or desk top. IMO
> ...


 
  
  
  
 There's a hundred different ways one could support any device.
  
 If you're into rubber (wink, wink; nudge, nudge), then I suppose you could build something similar to SME's turntables
  

  
  
 ...which is, itself somewhat similar to microphone suspensions:
  

  
  
 I think Chord's dedicated stand for DAVE is really nice, but having something machined and finished to that standard obviously isn't cheap. As someone who can't even afford DAVE, I understand the predicament!


----------



## rkt31

isolation has different effects depending upon the material used . there are two extremes like using hard pointed spikes to using soft foam patches . effect of any other material will be in between these two extremes. as per the experience hard pointed supports provide focussed sharp sound while soft supports make the sound softer. effects are very subtle though. so it all depends on one's preference . a simple and cheap yet most effective isolation diy trick is to make three ( not four ) spikes out of hard rubber piece ( cheap pencil erasers can be cut into spike shape) these spikes need to be taller than the rubber feet. paste the spikes on the bottom with with double sided tape or blue tack near the edges. this trick has the advantage of both hard spikes and soft patches. I have tried these with speakers and amps and it does work.


----------



## analogmusic

Question for Rob Watts :

 Which USB cable are you using with your Dave, and also Mojo?
  
 Cheers


----------



## GeneralSensible

rkt31 said:


> isolation has different effects depending upon the material used . there are two extremes like using hard pointed spikes to using soft foam patches . effect of any other material will be in between these two extremes. as per the experience hard pointed supports provide focussed sharp sound while soft supports make the sound softer. effects are very subtle though. so it all depends on one's preference . a simple and cheap yet most effective isolation diy trick is to make three ( not four ) spikes out of hard rubber piece ( cheap pencil erasers can be cut into spike shape) these spikes need to be taller than the rubber feet. paste the spikes on the bottom with with double sided tape or blue tack near the edges. this trick has the advantage of both hard spikes and soft patches. I have tried these with speakers and amps and it does work.


 
  
 This indeed can do the trick!
  
 For those of you (like myself) who aren't too keen on d.i.y. there is another very effective and not too expensive solution. Under almost all my equipment I use Vibrapods and/or Vibracones. These are nice little gadgets which give really audible results in most cases. I always keep some in store for test purposes and found that they do the job isolating DAVE in my setup.


----------



## Mojo ideas

7ryder said:


> Yeah, I agree, but it is a lot of coin for what is essentially cosmetics.


 You all seem to have not realised that the Chord Ensemble Stand is part of a stacking rack system that comes in different leg configurations so that amplifiers and a CD transport can be stacked together. Also the three semi ball feet on each leg do provide significant damping due to the arc of the balls giving a tiny point contact in twelve places at quite low pressure allowing for the balls to flex . As the units are stacked each layer further isolates through the action of being as a whole a distributed mass damped system with each layer being a mass. So it's far from being "a cosmetic system " as was stated.


----------



## 7ryder

mojo ideas said:


> You all seem to have not realised that the Chord Ensemble Stand is part of a stacking rack system that comes in different leg configurations so that amplifiers and a CD transport can be stacked together. Also the three semi ball feet on each leg do provide significant damping due to the arc of the balls giving a tiny point contact in twelve places at quite low pressure allowing for the balls to flex . As the units are stacked each layer further isolates through the action of being as a whole a distributed mass damped system with each layer being a mass. So it's far from being "a cosmetic system " as was stated.


 
 while that may be true when used as a system, it appears that the isolation benefits are pretty minimal if used by itself with DAVE. While not as sexy looking, Stillpoints are more effective and much cheaper.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

7ryder said:


> while that may be true when used as a system, it appears that the isolation benefits are pretty minimal if used by itself with DAVE. While not as sexy looking, Stillpoints are more effective and much cheaper.




7ryder
I have both products and I think your assertion is perhaps a little misleading. These products essentially excel at different jobs. Vibrations come from different directions. If for instance a customer has serious vertical vibration from the floor up, the stillpoints couldn't hope to suppress such movement in the same way that the cradle from Chord can. So a floating wooden floor would suggest the Cradle would do a better job. Equally if there is airborn vibration due to proximity to speakers or having to site Dave in a corner of the room, then Stillpoints is a very effective anchor to lateral movement plus a little suppression of vertical vibration for good measure. I find these excellent products compliment one another because in most setups both problems exist.

The person who doesn't care about vibrational effects in their system will of course not even hear a difference from this product because there will almost certainly be other vibrational problems which, when combined together, will mask the benefits of the cradle. Unless suppressed Vibration will be everywhere in your system. It's down to the individual to make their choices as to whether they want (or can afford) the product in order to hear the absolute closest rendition of Dave's output. It comes at a price but without a doubt it provides more than just aesthetic value.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Just to explain in more simplistic terms I would say the cradle is a macro vibrational solution whilst the Stillpoints excel at micro vibration. They anchor and finish the job off.


----------



## 7ryder

daveredref-iii said:


> Just to explain in more simplistic terms I would say the cradle is a macro vibrational solution whilst the Stillpoints excel at micro vibration. They anchor and finish the job off.


 
 Interesting. how do you use the cradle with the Stillpoints?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I put them underneath the (lower) front leading edge of Dave. It may sound like overkill but I suppress vibration even in my speaker cables (though this is an adhoc solution it further improves clarity). As I say, vibration is everywhere in the system.


----------



## Mython

daveredref-iii said:


> I put them underneath the (lower) front leading edge of Dave. It may sound like overkill but I suppress vibration even in my speaker cables (though this is an adhoc solution it further improves clarity). As I say, vibration is everywhere in the system.


 
  
  
 What do you do to stop your eardrums vibrating?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

The whole whole lot (Dave, Cradle, Stillpoints) also sits on a VerexAQ granite plinth with a puck under each corner!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

mython said:


> What do you do to stop your eardrums vibrating?




Ah. I never thought of that. Doh!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

In my defence, I do live in a 300 year old house with suspended wooden floors. I don't think they were thinking about catering for obsessive hifi buffs when they built it.


----------



## Mython

daveredref-iii said:


> In my defence, I do live in a 300 year old house with suspended wooden floors. I don't think they were thinking about catering for obsessive hifi buffs when they built it.


 
  
  
 Although I was pulling your leg about vibrations in your speaker cables, on a more serious note, I have experience of removing all the floorboards in a room and reinforcing the 7x2 joists with 2x4s screwed to the both sides of them. I must stress that this wasn't a bodge to inappropriately shore-up failing joists. There was nothing structurally wrong with the joists (if there was, I would've ripped them out and replaced them entirely). The reason for adding the 2x4s was primarily just to improve how *level* the floor was, since, as you know, joists in old houses have a tendency to sag &/or warp after a century or more. So, the floorboards now rest on the ruler-flat 2x4s, with the bonus that it happens to have made the floor more rigid to a rather surprising extent - so much so, that I wouldn't hesitate to recommend you try it, if you feel your wooden floors could do with more structural integrity for hi-fi purposes, with the caveat that it is not a remedy for rotten joists, only for strengthening joists that are fundamentally sound (no pun intended).


----------



## Music Alchemist

Just for reference:
 http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/product/choral-ensemble-stand/
 http://www.analogueseduction.net/category-685/chord-electronics-choral-ensemble-equipment-support.html
  
 Stillpoints also sell a similar product, the ESS Rack, but it is a *lot* more expensive. (Roughly $9,000 to $22,000.)
  
 A quick tip: If you're using loudspeakers instead of headphones, when implementing changes you want to test in your system, try to remain in the same listening spot, ideally having someone else make the changes. (If you use a chair, this may not be necessary.) This is because simply moving from one position in a room to another can alter the sound, and it's easy to mistake things in such a situation.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

mython said:


> Although I was pulling your leg about vibrations in your speaker cables, on a more serious note, I have experience of removing all the floorboards in a room and reinforcing the 7x2 joists with 2x4s screwed to the both sides of them. I must stress that this wasn't a bodge to inappropriately shore-up failing joists. There was nothing structurally wrong with the joists (if there was, I would've ripped them out and replaced them entirely). The reason for adding the 2x4s was primarily just to improve how *level* the floor was, since, as you know, joists in old houses have a tendency to sag &/or warp after a century or more. So, the floorboards now rest on the ruler-flat 2x4s, with the bonus that it happens to have made the floor more rigid to a rather surprising extent - so much so, that I wouldn't hesitate to recommend you try it, if you feel your wooden floors could do with more structural integrity for hi-fi purposes, with the caveat that it is not a remedy for rotten joists, only for strengthening joists that are fundamentally sound (no pun intended).




If you went to those extremes Mython then you are my audiophile God. 

I quite liked the this solution posted here recently by a likethinking audiophile.
http://www.accessflooringshop.co.uk/categories/pedestals/

In the end though I will be creating my own purpose built hifi/movie room when we extend the house. It will have a concrete base with Oak Block-Parquet flooring on top. That should minimise vibration I hope.


----------



## 7ryder

music alchemist said:


> Just for reference:
> http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/product/choral-ensemble-stand/
> http://www.analogueseduction.net/category-685/chord-electronics-choral-ensemble-equipment-support.html
> 
> ...


 
 not to beat a dead horse, but I was not commenting on the cost of entire stands.
  
 From what I have read (and also heard from more than one Chord dealer) is that there are more cost effective ways to isolate DAVE from room borne vibrations than buying the stand if the only piece of Chord kit you own is DAVE.
  
 And, since I started the Stillpoints comparison, in the USA you can get 4 Stillpoint Ultra SS w/ bases for approximately $1275 (retail) compared to the DAVE stand @ $2500 or so. 
  
 Like I said, the Chord stand is very sexy...but on its own, it is a lot of money for what you get.


----------



## Music Alchemist

7ryder said:


> not to beat a dead horse, but I was not commenting on the cost of entire stands.
> 
> From what I have read (and also heard from more than one Chord dealer) is that there are more cost effective ways to isolate DAVE from room borne vibrations than buying the stand if the only piece of Chord kit you own is DAVE.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I pretty much agree with you.
  
 However...I wonder...
  

If one could use the Chord stand and Stillpoints in conjunction...you know, for "ultimate isolation" _and_ that sexy look. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


How much better the Stillpoints Ultra 6 footers would be, since it'd be $3,600 or more for four of them.
How much improvement these types of things would make on headphone systems.


----------



## TSAVJason

music alchemist said:


> I pretty much agree with you.
> 
> However...I wonder...
> 
> ...


Like John has told you, the Dave stands primary purpose is to be able to stack Chord gear. Early next year there is a Canadian company providing isolation feet that will work on the Dave stand (already tested) very nicely at $300 per leg. So much less than stillpoints at nearly the same quality


----------



## Music Alchemist

It would appear this hasn't been linked to yet.
  
 http://www.whathifi.com/chord/dave/review


----------



## Beolab

About 7 month ago i think someone published it here, but there is not accurat info in the old review from the "drunken sailer" WhatHifi ,
 i remember was my comment, so you havent read through the whole thread my friend.  

Start from page 1 , 

happy reading,..


----------



## miketlse

music alchemist said:


> It would appear this hasn't been linked to yet.
> 
> http://www.whathifi.com/chord/dave/review




It was discussed on the thread. From memory one of the elements discussed was that WhatHiFi felt that they could not bring themselves to give the DAVE a perfect score, but had to deduct a mark because on the demo model, the two halves of the case were misaligned by a fraction of a mm.


----------



## ubs28

What does negative and positive output phase do? The manual offers no explanation and I also tried searching.
  
 Which of the 2 settings sounds best by the way?


----------



## theveterans

ubs28 said:


> What does negative and positive output phase do? The manual offers no explanation and I also tried searching.
> 
> Which of the 2 settings sounds best by the way?




It's for the low frequencies if I recall it's especially useful when you hear that the sound out of the subwoofer seems detached to the loudspeakers. Changing the phase to opposite can make the sound of the subwoofer in sync to the rest of the frequencies.


----------



## Nik

The phase (polarity) inverter you need to set depending by the recording, there are a lot of CD recorded with wrongl phase, you can adjust it for better result in sound...


----------



## ubs28

Ok thanks. No 1 setting that sounds best I suppose.


----------



## TheAttorney

Warning: if you have any OCD tendencies in you, then walk away from the absolute phase (polarity) switch. Sometimes ignorance is bliss, as it has been for most of my audiophile life on this topic.
  
 It does not just affect the bass. It affects the solidity of the sound images. I could explain that in moe detail, but I won't for your own good. On the one hand, it's pretty subtle and varies with the type of recording - the more diffuse the images are to start with (or the less resolving your source), the less obvious are the differences, and most people probably wouldn't notice most of the time. But once I've latched onto those differences, then it's not so subtle anymore, and my OCD forces me to check every album I play.
  
 To save a few seconds of A/Bing at the start of each album (and falling foul of DAVE's really, really, really irritating 8 second selection timeout feature), I've started marking up the albums. The good news for those that want to leave the phase switch alone, is that of the 52 albums I've marked so far, almost 3 to 1 sound best left at positive phase. So if you always stick to that, more often than not you'll be at the correct phase.


----------



## Nik

Good, but not enough... I also had starting to marking the CD... Until I have discovered that Each single tracks need to be controlled for the correct phase... (unfortunately...) No one only CD with all the tracks in the same phase...


----------



## Mython

nik said:


> The phase (polarity) inverter you need to set depending by the recording, there are a lot of CD recorded with wrong phase, you can adjust it for better result in sound...


 
  
  
*Not the same thing*, but that nonetheless reminds me of an interesting little anecdote I was told (by a very reliable source, during the mid 1990s) about George Michael's_ 'Listen Without Prejudice'_ album - in particular, the track '_Cowboys and Angels'_.
  
 IIRC, the album mix was monitored on a pair of Wilson Watt/Puppy loudspeakers, and it only emerged, _after_ the album had gone to the pressing plant, that one of the subwoofer drivers (a replacement SEAS unit) had been accidentally wired out-of-phase, thus undermining the intended accuracy of the mix.
  
 If you listen to that track, you may note that there is an ambiguous peculiarity to the bass notes in the mix - they seem a little 'sucked-out', although quite what may or may not have been done on the mixing desk, etc., is anyone's guess, as I wouldn't anticipate an engineer flipping phase on the mixing desk (especially not knowing of any loudspeaker issue), and certainly not for just one channel.


----------



## Music Alchemist

Concerning whether to use an external amp... I hope no one thought I was implying (from my previous comments) that no one should ever use an external amp that has a lot more power than the DAVE. Since powerful amps can be so much more affordable than the DAVE, that's not an issue from a price perspective, nor from a timing one. I'd imagine most would already have some good amps lying around anyway. I guess the natural thing for anyone to do is simply compare with your own system and music to see which you prefer. Power needs will ultimately depend on the individual. I do know that some people happily use just a Mojo with their LCD-4, for example.
  
 And here's a relevant excerpt from this review:
  


> Now as far as power, the amp built into the DAVE is sufficient to power the Abyss to ear-splitting levels. I don’t really go past the -10 dB mark. It gets pretty painful. That answers the question “Is the DAVE amp section sufficient to power current thirsty headphones?”
> 
> So what are the sonic differences between direct-from-DAC or having an amp in-between? Two things:
> 
> ...


 
  


beolab said:


> About 7 month ago i think someone published it here, but there is not accurat info in the old review from the "drunken sailer" WhatHifi ,
> i remember was my comment, so you havent read through the whole thread my friend.
> 
> 
> ...


 


miketlse said:


> It was discussed on the thread. From memory one of the elements discussed was that WhatHiFi felt that they could not bring themselves to give the DAVE a perfect score, but had to deduct a mark because on the demo model, the two halves of the case were misaligned by a fraction of a mm.


 
  
 Yeah, I didn't read the entire thread since it's so incredibly long; only did a few search techniques (which aren't entirely accurate) for the link. (I did at first assume it was already discussed since it's one of the easiest to find links.)


----------



## Nik

I'm still comparing the two beasts ... (hard work...)
  
 1) Dave directly to the Abyss
 2) Headtrip from Vitus cd player to the Abyss
  
 (so two different DAC working, Vitus and Dave)
  
 Hard to find a winner... Dave alone is something special for transparency, image and details... 
  
 Headtrip gives to the Abyss authority that Dave do not do... (also Vitus has more warmth sound respect to Dave...); the Abyss with Vitus/Headrip sounds more like a speakers, with the Dave more like a incredible headphones... The bass with Headtrip is simply superb and "abyssal" not the same with the Dave, but still excellent bass ...
  
 But if I remember a certain "robotic" sound with some recordings with the Dave, this totally gone with the Headtrip, even with the stock JPS cable...
 Also the med/hi of the female voices are better with the Headtrip, more present and analogical sound... 
  
 Very hard to find the best of the two setups in a direct head by head comparison...
  
 Now I'll try another way... I listen for one mount with the Vitus/Headtrip, and than I come back to the Dave, if the impact will be to come down from a speaker like sound to a headphone one, I'll give the winner to the Headtrip...
  
 These are only my opinion with this incredible test head to head with two beasts...


----------



## rgs9200m

Yeah, even though I love my TT on my desk system, the EMM xds1 cdp w/ external amp (of course) is still a gold standard, with supreme reach and groundedness; very analog-like with more resolution than vinyl.
 (That's a good word you used Nik, "analogical". I think you coined a great one there; I love it.)


----------



## Nik

Following ... 

Dave/Abyss: highest hifi sound... 
Vitus/Headtrip/Abyss: incredible live performance... 

(And I' still waiting for the Prion4 with left and right xlr... May be the winner will be declared...)


----------



## bmichels

nik said:


> I'm still comparing the two beasts ... (hard work...)
> 
> 1) Dave directly to the Abyss
> 2) Headtrip from Vitus cd player to the Abyss
> ...


 
  
 very interesting.  Indeed, I will soon listen to a a VITUS SCD-025 mk2 (and compare it to an Esoteric K-01x) used as a CD player but also as a USB DAC.  
  
 --> Is the SCD-025  the VITUS you are refering to ?   Isn't the VITUS sound too warm/live to the point of loosing micro details ?
  
 Note :I will also listen at the same time to the NASDAC DAC & Metronome C8+


----------



## Nik

Yes, Vitus scd 025 mk II, a full sound with a lot of micro details but, first music, than all the littlest details... Some other players put the details first and then the music...


----------



## bmichels

nik said:


> Yes, Vitus scd 025 mk II, a full sound with a lot of micro details but, first music, than all the littlest details... Some other players put the details first and then the music...


 
  
 Very exciting comments.  I am looking forward listening to the SCD-025 paired with my BHSE amp + Stax SR009.  I hope it will offer good synergy with my Electrostatic set-up.
  
 I am indeed looking for the Best DAC for my BHSE: a DAC that is very detailed, « non digital » and very engaging... like the NAGRA HD DAC but... a more reasonable price than the NAGRA. So I intend to use the SCD-025 not only as a CD player but also (and most of the time) as a USB DAC (have you heard also the Esoteric K-01x ?).


----------



## Nik

Yes, I heard many top class CD players like Esoteric, Playback... And I bought the Vitus, (I had before the Linn Sondek CD 12), even because I do not have sacd but only redbook CD...


----------



## bmichels

nik said:


> Yes, I heard many top class CD players like Esoteric, Playback... And I bought the Vitus, (I had before the Linn Sondek CD 12), even because I do not have sacd but only redbook CD...


 
  
 And do you also use the SCD-025 as your USB-DAC ? what source do you use to feed it with High-res music file ?


----------



## smial1966

You mention a more 'reasonable price' than the Nagra HD DAC, but these things must be relative to you, as the Vitus SCD-025 is £17,500 in the UK! For that money I'd buy another DAVE (black this time) and spend the other £9,500 on a luxurious world cruise with additional DAVE as my transportable head-fi rig.  




bmichels said:


> Very exciting comments.  I am looking forward listening to the SCD-025 paired with my BHSE amp + Stax SR009.  I hope it will offer good synergy with my Electrostatic set-up.
> 
> I am indeed looking for the Best DAC for my BHSE: a DAC that is very detailed, « non digital » and very engaging... like the NAGRA HD DAC but... a more reasonable price than the NAGRA. So I intend to use the SCD-025 not only as a CD player but also (and most of the time) as a USB DAC (have you heard also the Esoteric K-01x ?).


----------



## Nik

I do not use hi resolution files...


----------



## bmichels

smial1966 said:


> You mention a more 'reasonable price' than the Nagra HD DAC, but these things must be relative to you, as the Vitus SCD-025 is £17,500 in the UK! For that money I'd buy another DAVE (black this time) and spend the other £9,500 on a luxurious world cruise with additional DAVE as my transportable head-fi rig.


 
  
 well... as a matter of fact, I listened carefully to DAVE on 3 occasions and tried hard to convince me to like the DAVE but... It did not move me like the NAGRA.  Of course it's sound is 'perfect' but it did not bring to me the emotion I am looking for.  I do not know why but this is the fact.
  
 Also, since I need anew DAC as well as a CD player, the price of DAVE + a decent CD player will reach the price of the VITUS SCD-025 which is a DAC & CD player.
  
 So, within 10 days, I have appointments with a dealer all day, and I will bring my BHSE & Stax 009 to listen to :
  
 - *Metronome C8+*
 - *Esoteric K-01x * (to be used as a CD/SACD and also as a USB DAC) 
 - *NADAC DAC*
 - *Forzatto* Music server
  
 and also I am arranging a listening at home of :
 - a *VITUS SCD-025* mk2  (to be used as a CD/SACD and also as a USB DAC)  
 - a *BRINKMANN Nyquist* tube DAC.
  
 Any opinions about those other contenders ?


----------



## Nik

Vitus = musical emotion


----------



## bmichels

nik said:


> Vitus = musical emotion


 
 Like NAGRA HD DAC i hope )))    (you mean that Esoteric CD/SACD/DAC (the new x version) do not bring the same emotion ? )


----------



## lovethatsound

bmichels said:


> Like NAGRA HD DAC i hope )))    (you mean that Esoteric CD/SACD/DAC (the new x version) do not bring the same emotion ? )


your a hard man to please,maybe you should wait a while longer,till you can hear the blu 2 with Dave,just to make sure you come to the right decision


----------



## smial1966

Why not consider a music server with integrated CD ripper instead of a CDP? I have an INNUOS Zenith Mk.II with a 2TB SSD and it's sonics are fantastic. I too resisted computer audio and steadfastly stuck to my Nagra CDP and conventional Redbook replay, but thankfully an audiophile friend demonstrated his INNUOS unit to me. The sublime sound convinced me to eschew conventional CD replay and start ripping my collection and/or exploring high-res music. 

Of course an integral part of my computer audio journey has been using DAVE as my reference DAC/headamp. As despite listening to comparable units from Goldmund, DiDiT and Ayre, I've yet to hear anything as musical and resolving as my DAVE.  




bmichels said:


> well... as a matter of fact, I listened carefully to DAVE on 3 occasions and tried hard to convince me to like the DAVE but... It did not move me like the NAGRA.  Of course it's sound is 'perfect' but it did not bring to me the emotion I am looking for.  I do not know why but this is the fact.
> 
> Also, since I need anew DAC as well as a CD player, the price of DAVE + a decent CD player will reach the price of the VITUS SCD-025 which is a DAC & CD player.
> 
> ...


----------



## Music Alchemist

smial1966 said:


> Why not consider a music server with integrated CD ripper instead of a CDP? I have an INNUOS Zenith Mk.II with a 2TB SSD and it's sonics are fantastic. I too resisted computer audio and steadfastly stuck to my Nagra CDP and conventional Redbook replay, but thankfully an audiophile friend demonstrated his INNUOS unit to me. The sublime sound convinced me to eschew conventional CD replay and start ripping my collection and/or exploring high-res music.
> 
> Of course an integral part of my computer audio journey has been using DAVE as my reference DAC/headamp. As despite listening to comparable units from Goldmund, DiDiT and Ayre, I've yet to hear anything as musical and resolving as my DAVE.


 
  
 I've got my eye on this network player and music server since they were able to beat so many far more expensive ones:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/787020/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box/315#post_12575069
  
 Ripping isn't a factor for me since the cheap drives I already have can easily rip perfect copies of the audio from any CD. (Which can be verified by analyzing the data from countless other drives via the AccurateRip database.)
  
 As for storage...gosh...I got a 12 TB hard drive array years ago that worked fine until this year. Now it's a hundred times slower and I can't figure out what the problem is. I'd rather not send it out to a third party. Spent $1,100 on the darn thing and I'm paranoid... If I'm not able to fix it, it would probably take weeks on end to transfer all the data to other drives.


----------



## miketlse

music alchemist said:


> I've got my eye on this network player and music server since they were able to beat so many far more expensive ones:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/787020/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box/315#post_12575069
> 
> ...


 
 Is the problem with indexing of tracks - can you recreate the index?
 If your 12 TB array is made up of several smaller drives (eg 6 drives of 2TB each), could you copy one drive to a new drive, and see if the problem disappears. If the problem remains, just repeat for each of the remaining drives, until you find the root cause.


----------



## Music Alchemist

miketlse said:


> Is the problem with indexing of tracks - can you recreate the index?
> If your 12 TB array is made up of several smaller drives (eg 6 drives of 2TB each), could you copy one drive to a new drive, and see if the problem disappears. If the problem remains, just repeat for each of the remaining drives, until you find the root cause.


 


mython said:


> There are a number of possible causes for the slow-down, but one that immediately springs to mind is it a mirrored or a striped RAID? Possibly one of the drives may have failed.


 
  
 I appreciate the info. To help stay more on-topic here, I replied to you in this post on my thread. Feel free to continue the conversation there.


----------



## rkt31

I am not into high end gear but imho spending on expensive cd transport is not required these days. a good usb implementation via a bit perfect player can easily beat an expensive cd transport . in case of both cd transport and usb , the length of digital interconnect is the common factor but the difference is the two way communication between the source and dac in case of usb asynchronous transfer. in case of cd transport the communication is one way and any jitter caused by the interconnect can't be addressed. frankly speaking I have not used any expensive cd transport but imho even a very cheap windows tab via and asio driver will easily beat even the most expensive dedicated cd transport.


----------



## analogmusic

on this topic, has anyone used Microrendu as a source into Dave?


----------



## Nik

The integrated CD player (one box), for those who have a big CD collection, is still the best way to go, IMO... So the highest quality CD player is my choice...


----------



## x RELIC x

analogmusic said:


> on this topic, has anyone used Microrendu as a source into Dave?




Yup...

http://www.head-fi.org/newsearch/?search=Microrendu&resultSortingPreference=recency&byuser=&output=posts&sdate=0&newer=1&type=all&containingthread%5B0%5D=766517&advanced=1


----------



## TheAttorney

smial1966 said:


> I have an INNUOS Zenith Mk.II with a 2TB SSD and it's sonics are fantastic.


 
 Do you have the Zenith directly connected by USB to the DAVE? See next point.
  


music alchemist said:


> I've got my eye on this network player and music server since they were able to beat so many far more expensive ones:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/787020/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box/315#post_12575069


 
 The component doing the magic there is the microRendu, which I don't really class as a "server" or "music player", more of a server "end point", which cleans up the signal downstream of the acual server playing the music. The mR  does the cleaning bit so well that it no longer matters (as much) what the actual server is, be it a cheap PC or specialised expensive server. There's a new kid on the block by SOtM that allegedly sounds better and costs less than the mR, but I've yet to try that.
  
 Edit: The server/music player does need to handle the End Point concept. Like HQ Player's NAA mode, and Roon has an equivalent mode that I haven't yet tried. Going down this route is a bit more complicated than connecting your server direct to DAVE.
  


nik said:


> Good, but not enough... I also had starting to marking the CD... Until I have discovered that Each single tracks need to be controlled for the correct phase... (unfortunately...) No one only CD with all the tracks in the same phase...


 
 That may be true, but I haven't noticed it - i.e. whenever I randomly tried a few tracks of any CD, the've always been the same absolute polarity to my ears. So if there are differences, they are probably (hopefully) exceptions. It's not something I'm going to explore further, because I'm not _that_ OCD )


----------



## bmichels

music alchemist said:


> I've got my eye on this network player and music server since they were able to beat so many far more expensive ones:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/787020/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box/315#post_12575069
> 
> ...


 
  
 If you are interested in the MicroRendu, you might be interested in this  isolated ultracapacitor power supply from Vinny Rossie (ex RedWine Audio).  A very nice PSU upgrade for the MicroRendu ...


----------



## bmichels

smial1966 said:


> Why not consider a music server with integrated CD ripper instead of a CDP?





> I have an INNUOS Zenith Mk.II with a 2TB SSD and it's sonics are fantastic.


 
  
 Well, I just purchased *+2000 classical CDs* from a Friend, and I prefer to listen to them with the pleasure of choosing randomly the CD (old fashion may be .  I will then may be rip the one I prefer.
  
 Also can you tell me why you chosed the *INNUOS rather than an Aurender* ? Why is the INNUOS superior to Aurender which has a good history and a very polished iPad app ?


----------



## Deftone

Is it possible to use phone with otg as a transport for Dave? All my music is on an SD in my phone so I'm wondering how to connect it when I go to demo.


----------



## smial1966

Wow, over 2000 CD's is a huge investment in Redbook, so congratulations and happy listening! 
  
 I'm familiar with the INNUOS ecosystem and wanted an inbuilt CD ripper for convenience, so chose the Zenith over an Aurender unit. Plus the Zenith is Hi-Fi Plus magazines `2016 Server of the Year'. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 Quote:


bmichels said:


> Well, I just purchased *+2000 classical CDs* from a Friend, and I prefer to listen to them with the pleasure of choosing randomly the CD (old fashion may be .  I will then may be rip the one I prefer.
> 
> Also can you tell me why you chosed the *INNUOS rather than an Aurender* ? Why is the INNUOS superior to Aurender which has a good history and a very polished iPad app ?


----------



## analogmusic

question for Rob Watts
  
 I understand that the Chord Asio driver ensures bit perfect output, but what about the Windows Wasapi driver?
  
 Thanks


----------



## Nik

https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.kogaudio.com/pdf/SCD-025%2B113.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjvkum9-f3QAhUaM1AKHSA9DxcQFgg5MAk&usg=AFQjCNGCBPVVlL0VA9-jLVbrqoc_dp_xfQ&sig2=BW-UHkOqym7nvO46jAEVWg

“The Vitus is a device that stands as an antidote to some of the latest crop of ultra high defnition digital. So much of that stuff just drift past me, as it’s so often drained of natural colour and with no sense of communication whatsoever. The Vitus sits squarely on the other side of the fence, offering certainly high – but not hyper – definition. I suspect we are caught up in a numbers game here; good audio should be about the quality of the sound, not just the size of the file.”


----------



## 7ryder

music alchemist said:


> I've got my eye on this network player and music server since they were able to beat so many far more expensive ones:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/787020/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box/315#post_12575069
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah, but now he says the SOtM sMS-200 is better than the microRendu and he sold it, so there's that.


----------



## Music Alchemist

analogmusic said:


> on this topic, has anyone used Microrendu as a source into Dave?


 
  
 Many have. romaz has especially posted a lot of info about it. That server thread I linked to is worth checking out.
  


theattorney said:


> The component doing the magic there is the microRendu, which I don't really class as a "server" or "music player", more of a server "end point", which cleans up the signal downstream of the acual server playing the music. The mR  does the cleaning bit so well that it no longer matters (as much) what the actual server is, be it a cheap PC or specialised expensive server. There's a new kid on the block by SOtM that allegedly sounds better and costs less than the mR, but I've yet to try that.
> Edit: The server/music player does need to handle the End Point concept. Like HQ Player's NAA mode, and Roon has an equivalent mode that I haven't yet tried. Going down this route is a bit more complicated than connecting your server direct to DAVE.


 
  
 In the context of a music server system, the network player and server endpoint you refer to are one and the same. (For example, the music server can run the Roon core, while the network player would be the network endpoint. Some servers have internal network players too.) Click here and here to see more of what I mean.
  
 And yes, I was made aware that the mR is the important piece of that puzzle by talking to owners. Some told me that it sounds the same whether you use it with a basic PC or fancy music server. Others insist PC sounds worse. I still want a dedicated Roon server in order to have everything separate from my computers. But I did also hear about how using the mR with a PC and HQPlayer with NAA can sound better than using it with a fancy server. Since I do have HQPlayer, I'll have to try that when the time comes. Perhaps the Roon mode you mentioned would sound equivalently better.
  
 Oh, and if anyone wants some interesting info on making the most of the microRendu or other network players:
 http://www.audiostream.com/content/sonore-simple-design-microrendu-audiophile-odyssey
  


bmichels said:


> If you are interested in the MicroRendu, you might be interested in this  isolated ultracapacitor power supply from Vinny Rossie (ex RedWine Audio).  A very nice PSU upgrade for the MicroRendu ...


 
  
 I researched power supplies for a few hours in the past. Looks like the Sonore Signature Power Supply and Paul Hynes SR7 are two of the best ones for the microRendu. I'll have to look into how this one you linked to compares. (If I already did, I forgot.)
  


bmichels said:


> Well, I just purchased *+2000 classical CDs* from a Friend, and I prefer to listen to them with the pleasure of choosing randomly the CD (old fashion may be .  I will then may be rip the one I prefer.
> 
> Also can you tell me why you chosed the *INNUOS rather than an Aurender* ? Why is the INNUOS superior to Aurender which has a good history and a very polished iPad app ?


 
  
 If I hadn't spent tens of thousands on CDs in my lifetime, and on top of that foolishly wasted most of my money (in a former career) on things I didn't need before I had the sense to become an audiophile, I would have already been able to get an ultimate headphone system, including the DAVE. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 (Now I have to work my way up all over again, with a new business model I haven't implemented yet.)
  


7ryder said:


> Yeah, but now he says the SOtM sMS-200 is better than the microRendu and he sold it, so there's that.


 
  
 Ah, I haven't talked with him in awhile and don't keep up with that thread. (Too bad it doesn't have an updated ranking in the first post like some threads have.) Thanks for the heads-up. (After looking, I realized that he actually posted about it in this thread here.)


----------



## Rob Watts

analogmusic said:


> question for Rob Watts
> 
> I understand that the Chord Asio driver ensures bit perfect output, but what about the Windows Wasapi driver?
> 
> Thanks


 
 If the app that uses the driver is bit perfect, then both ASIO and WASAPI are bit perfect.
  
 With Dave it does not matter which one to use as my tests revealed no difference in SQ; but with Mojo ASIO sounds a bit better; which is a little odd as they were both listened too in bit perfect mode. I suspect that the reason for this is ASIO is a direct path to the USB, but WASAPI is via Windows and I suspect it involves more processor activity, hence more noise. With Dave's galvanic isolation, and with the Windows lap-top on battery, effectively we have perfect isolation from RF noise upsetting Dave, so you can't hear the difference.
  
 Rob


----------



## GeneralSensible

Can anyone (probably Rob 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) help me with the exact output impedance of the single ended output of DAVE? I'm a bit confused because I can find all kinds of values both on the Chord site and in this forum.
  
 I read a value of 0.0055 ohms as a general value on the Chord site. But what's this about? SE,? XLR? HP output?
 Then I read values from 0.05 to 33 ohms on this thread.
  
 So I'm a bit confused. What is the correct value for the SE output. (and perhaps also the value for XLR?)
  
 I'm curious about this because I like to do some matching-calculations. I like to know the ratio between DAVE and my power amps (input impedance 10.000 ohms). Purely out of interest and hobby......... 
  
 TNX


----------



## lovethatsound

To Rob and John,and everyone else at chord,Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all.


----------



## Deftone

music alchemist said:


> If I hadn't spent tens of thousands on CDs in my lifetime, and on top of that foolishly wasted most of my money (in a former career) on things I didn't need before I had the sense to become an audiophile, I would have already been able to get an ultimate headphone system, including the DAVE.


 
  
 oh i know them feels, many times in the past i have wasted quite a bit of money just because i had it instead of buying something i really want. live and learn eh.


----------



## Rob Watts

generalsensible said:


> Can anyone (probably Rob
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Its 55 milli ohms or 0.055 ohms on the SE outputs (phono or headphone). XLR is 33 ohms. For connection to power amps, the OP impedance is not relevant - but lower impedance makes the interconnect dielectric less audible.
  
 Rob


----------



## Mojo ideas

lovethatsound said:


> To Rob and John,and everyone else at chord,Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all.


 Merry Chistmas one and all


----------



## Music Alchemist

Whoa. Didn't realize until now that the Hugo TT has the same output power specs (from the headphone output) as the Hugo and Mojo. So only the DAVE has more power.


----------



## Mython

music alchemist said:


> Whoa. Didn't realize until now that the Hugo TT has the same output power specs (from the headphone output) as the Hugo and Mojo. So only the DAVE has more power.


 
  
  
 Remember that TT has a super-capacitor, so it may yield more dynamic clout.


----------



## Mediahound

mython said:


> Remember that TT has a super-capacitor, so it may yield more dynamic clout.


 

 Yeah, I've read one of Rob's or John's posts stating that about the TT.


----------



## Jawed

mojo ideas said:


> lovethatsound said:
> 
> 
> > To Rob and John,and everyone else at chord,Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all.
> ...



Merry Chordmas! It'll be my second with my Hugo TT, which has been wonderful this past year or so. Seems I didn't write to Santa soon enough, so my DAVE won't be here in time. Anyway, my music is sounding so unbelievably good it's hard to remember that DAVE is better.

now playing: Cowboy Junkies - Misguided Angel (live)


----------



## miketlse

jawed said:


> Merry Chordmas! It'll be my second with my Hugo TT, which has been wonderful this past year or so. Seems I didn't write to Santa soon enough, so my DAVE won't be here in time. Anyway, my music is sounding so unbelievably good it's hard to remember that DAVE is better.
> 
> now playing: Cowboy Junkies - Misguided Angel (live)


 
 Merry Chordmas as well.
  
 You will have to remember to write to Santa earlier next year, but what will you ask for to better the DAVE?


----------



## rgs9200m

Merry Christmas Rob and the Chord family and thanks for the brilliant Hugo TT (I love it with my Hifiman HE1000V2.)


----------



## Shini44

here is my DAVE's Review: http://www.head-fi.org/products/chord-dave/reviews/17624
  
 Glad i bought it  best thing ever ^^


----------



## phonyx

Wow, what a room!! Do you just run the BHSE or is there a non-electrostatic setup in amongst that as well? You look like you're running the BHSE from a Hugo?


----------



## smial1966

That fabulous room and equipment belongs to @bmichels
  
 Quote:


phonyx said:


> Wow, what a room!! Do you just run the BHSE or is there a non-electrostatic setup in amongst that as well? You look like you're running the BHSE from a Hugo?


----------



## lovethatsound

shini44 said:


> here is my DAVE's Review: http://www.head-fi.org/products/chord-dave/reviews/17624
> 
> Glad i bought it  best thing ever ^^


lovely review,enjoyed reading it . merry Christmas


----------



## Shini44

lovethatsound said:


> lovely review,enjoyed reading it . merry Christmas


 
 not the best review out there, but glad that you enjoyed


----------



## Music Alchemist

Is anyone willing to fight alongside me against "objectivist" trolls who insist all DACs sound the same?
  
 They seriously get on my nerves, not only because they spread misinformation, but more importantly because they've never even used the products they trash. (Which is supposed to be against the rules, but they get around it somehow.)
  
 I'm asking this here because the DAVE is widely regarded as the best DAC available and is generally thought to sound wildly better than affordable DACs.
  
 Explaining the technical advantages doesn't work because they can simply say it's below the threshold of audibility, ie humans can't hear it. Explaining that practically everyone who has heard it insists it sounds much better doesn't work because they can simply say it's the placebo effect, ie everyone is imagining the difference. And suggesting that they actually listen to the product doesn't work because they can simply refuse and say there's no point. (See why these people tick me off?)
  
 Merely ignoring them isn't good enough for me. I want to prove them wrong.
  
 The only two things I can think of to do that are controlled listening tests and measurements.
  
 The technical superiority of the DAVE has already been documented via measurements. So if someone were to prove that they could reliably tell it apart from, say, a Schiit Modi 2 with statistical significance, the skeptics could not claim that it is merely because the DAVE is coloring the sound, since it has better measurements, not worse ones.
  
 The problem is actually pulling that off. I'd imagine you would need very specific equipment to rapidly switch between the two DACs and record the results.
  
 One easier set of measurements that may not have been done yet is with Audio DiffMaker. (Signal difference extraction software.) This would involve playing music with the two DACs and recording the difference between them.
  
 If anyone wants to help me out with this little project, please quote, tag, or PM me!
  
 The ultimate goal would be to have objective proof that people really can hear a genuine improvement with high-end DACs, so then anyone can link the "objectivists" to it and proudly proclaim, "See, look. It really does sound different, and it _is_ higher fidelity because the measurements already showed this."


----------



## Mython

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






music alchemist said:


> Is anyone willing to fight alongside me against "objectivist" trolls who insist all DACs sound the same?
> 
> They seriously get on my nerves, not only because they spread misinformation, but more importantly because they've never even used the products they trash. (Which is supposed to be against the rules, but they get around it somehow.)
> 
> ...


 
  
  


  
 I understand your irritation, but why worry about what others think about DACs? Just live and enjoy whatever you consider to be true
  
 The same thing happens in relation to whether or not cables make this difference, that difference, all the difference in the world, or no difference at all.
  
  
  
 1) the only person in this world whom you get to choose the thinking of is yourself.
  
 2) whatever you give your attention to, grows stronger in your experience.
  
  
 You don't have to consider the above to be true, but I'm only saying it to encourage you to pause a moment and (hopefully) raise a grin & lighten-up a little 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
 ...Besides, Rob's DACs will hold their own, on the basis of their real & legitimate merits, regardless of a few naysayers & disbelievers.
  
 Let's face it: _ you're living proof of that_ - in spite of not being 'able' to understand the disbelievers, you still figured out that DAVE sounds superb, didn't you?


----------



## Music Alchemist

mython said:


> I understand your irritation, but why worry about what others think about DACs?


 
  
 The reason I want to prove them wrong is because they are spreading this misinformation _everywhere_. Every day, more people believe them. What's worse, that builds an army of skeptics who are fully willing to attack audiophiles (I do not consider the "objectivists" to be audiophiles at all) and insult us when we talk about the better sound we hear. And without the proof they demand, we are in no position to refute them. Sure, most of us understand that "listen with your own ears" is a reasonable suggestion, but they won't hear any of it. (In both senses of the phrase.) As someone active in the audiophile community, I talk to other audiophiles daily and feel that we should be able to defend higher fidelity products in a way that conclusively demonstrates they are _audibly_ higher fidelity, not just measurably. (Instead of being defenseless against this type of challenge, which in turn makes us lose credibility in the eyes of those who listen to the naysayers.) Basically, all this bothers me because it's something I have to deal with on a frequent basis. I don't think collecting sufficient proof would be too difficult either.


----------



## Mython

FWIW, I don't actually disagree with you, but differences in viewpoint have existed since time immemorial, and will continue to, long after you and I become dust.
  
  
 Rob has diligently sought to educate the community on factors in digital design affecting sound quality, and been generous in describing many aspects of his own design approach, as well as relating some interesting discoveries he's made along the way, some of which surprised even his depth of theoretical understanding.
  
  
 I'm not really convinced that you will ever find enough theoretical data _or_ measurement data to change the minds of those who are certain of the validity of their skepticism, but I wish you good luck in your quest


----------



## Music Alchemist

mython said:


> I'm not really convinced that you will ever find enough theoretical data _or_ measurement data to change the minds of those who are certain of the validity of their skepticism, but I wish you good luck in your quest


 
  
 Neither of those alone would accomplish the goal I proposed, but controlled listening tests (the details of which I would divulge to anyone who wants to do them) would, because they would demonstrate that at least one person could reliably distinguish between the two DACs. Even just one volunteer could work. And since it would involve comparing the DAVE against a cheap DAC, it should be pretty easy once everything is set up.


----------



## Beolab

OT

Received my Uptone Ultra-capacitor LPS-1 FPGA power supply that i power one of my W4s Remedy femto clocks with ( before i use to powered them with battery packs) , the clarity / separation / timing and the definition is very much better than before!

I can highly recommend it!

I take of my hat for Alex Crespi @ Uptone

So now the Abyss trough DAVE sings like never before!

[


----------



## Chrispb1

I can only assume, my system has a better synergy with the Yggdrasil. After having the DAVE in my system I found it no better than the Dac in my already excellent Mcintosh C2500 pre amp. Maybe at Its price I was expecting too much, but it moved me no more, no less and certainly no match for my Well Tempered Amadeus GTA. So when I arrange a home loan of the Yggy I wasn't expecting anything that would be more than tonal differences, I, in fact was beginning to think "digital" isn't "there" yet. However, in the context of my system, I'm amazed, it's like a new hi res format has been launched. So much so my TT is now sitting on its own in the other room until the Yggy goes back. Will buy one? More than likely. My only reservation is it's been out now for close on 2 years, and as amazing as it is I'd be very dissapointed if the model was superseded very soon after purchase despite its performance and promises of upgradability I just want best bang per £. I did message Schiit but they're giving nothing away as to product development. Problem is I don't think I can live without it now. Hey, DAVE, Yggy or anything else, you pays your money, just know where mine's going between the two. Rest of the system: Bluesound Vault 2, Mcintosh C2500 pre, Levinson 433 power, Genesis 5.3 speakers.
Furman reference, isol8 substation, Vertex AQ Taga,


----------



## JaZZ

music alchemist said:


>


 


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






> Is anyone willing to fight alongside me against "objectivist" trolls who insist all DACs sound the same?
> 
> They seriously get on my nerves, not only because they spread misinformation, but more importantly because they've never even used the products they trash. (Which is supposed to be against the rules, but they get around it somehow.)
> 
> ...


 
  


  
 A few years ago I was similarly militant in trying to convince the skeptics in the Sound Science forum of the relevance of various unaccepted audio phenomena, such as amplifier and cable sound – with zero success. All they believe in is controlled listening tests, and I'm not the least motivated to absolve any just for the sake of proving something to them. On the one hand I can understand their general skepticism, on the other hand it looks much too closed-minded to me. So all I could recommend to you is to invite one or some of the protagonists there to an (uncontrolled) listening test with several electronics with enough sonic differences to be demonstrative even for relatively unsensitive ears or minds.


----------



## Deftone

beolab said:


> OT
> 
> Received my Uptone Ultra-capacitor LPS-1 FPGA power supply that i power one of my W4s Remedy femto clocks with ( before i use to powered them with battery packs) , the clarity / separation / timing and the definition is very much better than before!
> 
> ...




I would imagine that the Dave has quality clock system and shouldn't need any femto re clockers.

Reminds me of that Hans fellow on YouTube saying that mojo benefited from a reclocker even though it's immune to jitter...

I think it's got to a point where people have bought the stuff they really like but don't like the idea of not having to buy anything else so they search for absolutely anything to try and make "improvements" most audiophiles say they are searching for endgame but don't like it when they get there, the chase is over. Just my opinion.


----------



## jlbrach

music alchemist said:


> Is anyone willing to fight alongside me against "objectivist" trolls who insist all DACs sound the same?
> 
> They seriously get on my nerves, not only because they spread misinformation, but more importantly because they've never even used the products they trash. (Which is supposed to be against the rules, but they get around it somehow.)
> 
> ...


 
 Every record player sounds the same...yeah right!Every loudspeaker sounds the same,yeah right!Every DAC sounds the same,yeah right!....it is true that when you get up into the big leagues and compare DAC's in the same price range that the differences become subjective but the differences between entry level DAC's and Dave or other premium DAC's is quite stark!


----------



## jlbrach

chrispb1 said:


> I can only assume, my system has a better synergy with the Yggdrasil. After having the DAVE in my system I found it no better than the Dac in my already excellent Mcintosh C2500 pre amp. Maybe at Its price I was expecting too much, but it moved me no more, no less and certainly no match for my Well Tempered Amadeus GTA. So when I arrange a home loan of the Yggy I wasn't expecting anything that would be more than tonal differences, I, in fact was beginning to think "digital" isn't "there" yet. However, in the context of my system, I'm amazed, it's like a new hi res format has been launched. So much so my TT is now sitting on its own in the other room until the Yggy goes back. Will buy one? More than likely. My only reservation is it's been out now for close on 2 years, and as amazing as it is I'd be very dissapointed if the model was superseded very soon after purchase despite its performance and promises of upgradability I just want best bang per £. I did message Schiit but they're giving nothing away as to product development. Problem is I don't think I can live without it now. Hey, DAVE, Yggy or anything else, you pays your money, just know where mine's going between the two. Rest of the system: Bluesound Vault 2, Mcintosh C2500 pre, Levinson 433 power, Genesis 5.3 speakers.
> Furman reference, isol8 substation, Vertex AQ Taga,


 
 I sold my Yiggy to buy a TT and thought the TT head and shoulders better than the Yiggy,I now own the Dave and can't conceive of going back to the Yiggy so to each his or her own


----------



## Music Alchemist

jlbrach said:


> Every record player sounds the same...yeah right!Every loudspeaker sounds the same,yeah right!Every DAC sounds the same,yeah right!....it is true that when you get up into the big leagues and compare DAC's in the same price range that the differences become subjective but the differences between entry level DAC's and Dave or other premium DAC's is quite stark!


 
  
 So would you be willing to prove it objectively to the skeptics? Let me know and we can go from there.
  
 I already have a way of proving it once and for all, but am not sure about the specific equipment needed to do it. I'd have to get in touch with a few experts...but first I'd need a willing participant who owns the DAVE.
  
 I want to emphasize that I am _not_ a skeptic, and believe the endless DAC impressions out there _are_ a result of them actually sounding different. (At least in most cases.)
  
 Since the difference is so stark, that should make it a simple matter to demonstrate that you can reliably distinguish between the DAVE (which I feel is an ideal choice for this experiment precisely because it should sound dramatically better) and an entry-level DAC—once the necessary test conditions are prepared.
  
 Remember, the entire purpose of this would be to have concrete proof to refute the claims of the skeptics. (Or whatever you want to call them.) And that claim (or rather, one of them) is that a $100 DAC sounds the same as the most expensive DACs. They've abused the name of science with anti-audiophile propaganda for long enough.


----------



## astrostar59

music alchemist said:


> So would you be willing to prove it objectively to the skeptics? Let me know and we can go from there.
> 
> I already have a way of proving it once and for all, but am not sure about the specific equipment needed to do it. I'd have to get in touch with a few experts...but first I'd need a willing participant who owns the DAVE.
> 
> ...


 

 I am sick of this same old line. Is it you hate the 'idea' of the more expensive units? Maybe they just wind up? Whatever, it is key to get to hear some of the higher end units. Yes, some are very pricey and you get into performance v cost ratios. But after having owned 20+ DACs that cost £200 to £15K, and heard some priced at over £25K I have to say the more expensive units do tend to sound better, in some cases MUCH better. Some high end DACs also sound a bit harsh IMO such as the Esoteric K-01, and is beaten by cheaper R-2R DACs IMO. But that case was pretty exceptional.
  
 It isn't just the DAC chip implementation, or the FPGA, wether it is R-2R or whatever, it is also the integrity of the power supplies and line stage implementation. I have said it for years, but a DAC is effectively a pre-amplifier with a digital board. We all know there are good, bad and great pre-amplifiers. DACs are no different....
  
 Good high end DACs I have heard and rate are the Lampizator Golden Gate, Audio Note DAC 5 Special, CH Precision C1. I also rate the much cheaper AMR DP-777. Not heard the DAVE yet, but a buddy has one in the UK so that will be soon.


----------



## Deftone

Musicalchemist isnt agreeing with the sceptics he's going against them lol


----------



## Music Alchemist

astrostar59 said:


> I am sick of this same old line. Is it you hate the 'idea' of the more expensive units? Maybe they just wind up? Whatever, it is key to get to hear some of the higher end units. Yes, some are very pricey and you get into performance v cost ratios. But after having owned 20+ DACs that cost £200 to £15K, and heard some priced at over £25K I have to say the more expensive units do tend to sound better, in some cases MUCH better. Some high end DACs also sound a bit harsh IMO such as the Esoteric K-01, and is beaten by cheaper R-2R DACs IMO. But that case was pretty exceptional.
> 
> It isn't just the DAC chip implementation, or the FPGA, wether it is R-2R or whatever, it is also the integrity of the power supplies and line stage implementation. I have said it for years, but a DAC is effectively a pre-amplifier with a digital board. We all know there are good, bad and great pre-amplifiers. DACs are no different....
> 
> Good high end DACs I have heard and rate are the Lampizator Golden Gate, Audio Note DAC 5 Special, CH Precision C1. I also rate the much cheaper AMR DP-777. Not heard the DAVE yet, but a buddy has one in the UK so that will be soon.


 
  
 Um...did you even read my posts? Please read them again, carefully this time. And don't miss my original post on the topic.
  
 I was talking about _objectively_ proving to the skeptics (such as ones who claim all DACs sound the same) that high-end DACs do sound better and that some people really can tell the difference. One of the best ways I could think of for proving that would be to compare the DAVE against a cheap DAC in a controlled listening test, since the differences there should be the greatest and easiest to detect.
  
 I am _not_ a skeptic and am _not_ claiming they sound the same. I already made all that very clear.
  
 I have heard high-end DACs, but only on systems I did not own.
  
 I also stated in this thread that I plan on buying the DAVE once I can afford it. I have no problem with expensive DACs. The price of the DAVE is quite attractive considering that so many think it sounds better than DACs that cost ten times more.
  


deftone said:


> Musicalchemist isnt agreeing with the sceptics he's going against them lol


 

 This. I don't even understand how I could have been misinterpreted.


----------



## Music Alchemist

torofiestasol said:


> Aren't you this guy?
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/725435/please-bury-this-thread-music-alchemists-ultimate-wish-list-thread-feel-free-to-add-your-own-items
> 
> Please, you're useless.
> ...


 
  
 Oh my goodness. You're _completely misinterpreting_ me too. (I really don't see how you could have unless you simply did not _actually read_ my posts.) I am saying that expensive DACs do sound better, and am seeking out those who are willing to help me objectively prove it to those who do not believe that.
  
 Read this post:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/6225#post_13103154
  
 Also, which "gear mentioned" are you referring to? I have owned and heard all sorts of stuff.


----------



## jlbrach

music alchemist said:


> So would you be willing to prove it objectively to the skeptics? Let me know and we can go from there.
> 
> I already have a way of proving it once and for all, but am not sure about the specific equipment needed to do it. I'd have to get in touch with a few experts...but first I'd need a willing participant who owns the DAVE.
> 
> ...


 
  


music alchemist said:


> Oh my goodness. You're _completely misinterpreting_ me too. I am saying that expensive DACs do sound better, and am seeking out those who are willing to help me objectively prove it to those who do not believe that.
> 
> Read this post:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/6225#post_13103154
> ...


 
 What is the point of such an action?Why would one need to prove something like this to anyone...if somebody told me he enjoyed the sound of scratching a record to listening to the music on the record my answer would be fine,enjoy yourself....I am sure they would be ways for engineers to make objective claims but in the end it is up to your ears and how it sounds


----------



## Music Alchemist

jlbrach said:


> What is the point of such an action?Why would one need to prove something like this to anyone...if somebody told me he enjoyed the sound of scratching a record to listening to the music on the record my answer would be fine,enjoy yourself....I am sure they would be ways for engineers to make objective claims but in the end it is up to your ears and how it sounds


 
  
 The point is that the skeptics (at least the ones I'm talking about) will only accept a controlled (and documented) listening test as objective proof of someone being able to tell two DACs apart. Once someone does that, they won't be able to make claims like "all DACs sound the same" anymore, because we can simply link them to the proof that they do in fact sound different.
  
 ...But I suppose you're not willing to participate in such a test...


----------



## x RELIC x

I work in the film and tv realm and have a very sensitive eye. I can spot jutter in a televisions frame rate easily and I can not stand any motion enhancements (frame interpolation) from modern televisions. It's extremely easy for me to spot these things, and yet most of those around me don't detect them or have no bias one way or another. It all depends on the perspective of the viewer and the ability/mental focus to perceive a difference. Most people I know simply talk about the colour saturation and that's all that matters to them, but they'll never realize the contrast ratio has a large influence on the colour reproduction for example. If there is no perception of a difference then all the talking in the world simply won't convince the individual otherwise. Others can see a difference with motion enhancements, but can't for the life of them describe what is going on. This is where comments like 'soap opera effect' arise, because of a lack of knowledge about what is actually happening.

It's very much the same with audio. Many people simply don't take the time to understand what is going on with regard to timing and noise/distortion and the effect they have with the resulting sound and the focus is usually just on the perceived frequency response. This leads to them making assumptions about what is 'better' to them vs what is actually happening under the hood, and this also creates a myriad of false asssumptions because of a lack of knowledge to describe what is going on. For example, if a system is injecting a lot of substrate noise and the resulting sound is brighter this is often mistaken for detail, but it _may_ just be an artifact of an anomaly in the system. Others may point to a piece of gear that is 'fuller' being the better implementation, but the root cause _may_ be harmonic distortion making _everything_ sound 'fuller' with less variety within the reproduction, like a phat filter on _everything_ which results in less transparency. Of course this isn't always the case but it's easy to make assumptions. To the individual who likes these things the perception will be that the gear is 'better'. For them that is their reality so there is no way any amount of words will change their mind. The issue becomes when they can't describe what is happening and then present their findings as gospel based on false assumptions. Well, to their perspective it is 100% accurate so there is no way this can be debated for them.

There is also the factor of amps, transducers, and the entire audio chain having an effect on the source. If the amp, or transducer is adding their own distortions and colouration then of course the differences between DACs will be much harder to discern. I see this all the time with less experienced 'audiophiles'. The same can be said for power supplies injecting a lot of noise in to the system which may mask any subtle differences in timing or timbre. Dealing in a holistic approach to improve the audio chain is what I've found to be the best way to distinguish quality of components rather than just picking apart one element within a flawed system. I see this all too often and I believe is a large reason why some describe the same gear in different ways assuming that the rest of their system isn't altering the sound. In fact that is why I like Rob's implementations so much, because he approaches his designs from input to output and has worked very hard to reduce the amount of components in the path for the sake of transparency.

For those that want to move past the dogma of a hard line of audibility then there is a entirely new world of possibility as to what may alter the sound. With Rob's DACs I can see where some may not see the initial attraction. Objectively it's not like there is an overwhelming difference like moving to a 3D tv from a 2D tv. The differences are subtle enough with audio to easily be overlooked, difficult to describe, or mistaken if not focusing on where the improvements lie. Subjectively the differences could be night and day depending on what is important to the listener. I can say without hesitation that, for me, after I became used to the Mojo, and later the DAVE, that the differences between other gear is very easy to hear and the ability to _focus_ on what is missing/changed is much easier. Similar to hearing something in a recording that was previously missed on other gear, but once heard can not be missed although perhaps not as easily heard. This often takes time to be acquainted with the gear with a multitude of tracks so most a/b comparisons are not productive in these cases. Most who have a brief demo may not be able to discern any outward difference and for them the book is closed from that point forward. It takes careful listening, knowing what to focus on, knowing what to listen for, and only then, IMO, will an individual be able to state where there may be a discernible difference.

With regard to audibility thresholds I'm in the camp that believes there is much more to our brains ability to dissect the information that our ears retrieve than what is assumed to be the limit of our hearing. There is more to listening than just frequency response, just like there is more to seeing than just colour (or lack of). Really, at the end of the day it all depends on the individual's perception. There is absolutely no way around that.


----------



## jlbrach

music alchemist said:


> The point is that the skeptics (at least the ones I'm talking about) will only accept a controlled (and documented) listening test as objective proof of someone being able to tell two DACs apart. Once someone does that, they won't be able to make claims like "all DACs sound the same" anymore, because we can simply link them to the proof that they do in fact sound different.
> 
> ...But I suppose you're not willing to participate in such a test...


 
 I find it takes time and repeated serious listening to truly appreciate one DAC or HF or Loudspeaker etc...I could not and would not pass judgment on any product in a short term a/b type comparison....I find myself constantly hearing new things in music i listen to and discovering new things in the music on a regular and ongoing basis.....


----------



## Music Alchemist

jlbrach said:


> I find it takes time and repeated serious listening to truly appreciate one DAC or HF or Loudspeaker etc...I could not and would not pass judgment on any product in a short term a/b type comparison....I find myself constantly hearing new things in music i listen to and discovering new things in the music on a regular and ongoing basis.....


 
  
 Just so you know, that's not how the test would be done. It would not be a random song to see whether you could tell them apart then; it would be with a song you already easily perceive a difference with. But it's perfectly fine if you don't want to do it.


----------



## Hubert H

As far as I'm aware, Chord have already created a DAC with 2 different DAC chips, the DSC 1500e I think. The two different DAC chips could be swapped on the fly and the sound difference was noticable from reports. It also had the benefit of using the same PSU, cables etc. It was the model before Rob started meddling with the Chord DACs...
  
 Maybe John can build a Dave with a similar setup 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 H.


----------



## ecwl

I see the new issue of HiFi Critic has a review of Chord DAVE. Anyone read it yet? Too bad they don't have an online version for me to purchase and read right away.


----------



## Beolab

deftone said:


> I would imagine that the Dave has quality clock system and shouldn't need any femto re clockers.
> 
> Reminds me of that Hans fellow on YouTube saying that mojo benefited from a reclocker even though it's immune to jitter...
> 
> I think it's got to a point where people have bought the stuff they really like but don't like the idea of not having to buy anything else so they search for absolutely anything to try and make "improvements" most audiophiles say they are searching for endgame but don't like it when they get there, the chase is over. Just my opinion.




I see it from another perspective, i want to give my DAVE the absolute purest jitter & RF free signal i can possibly give it, so it can perform at its best, and have a easy life.

The Remedy does not only clean up the signal to 0 jitter, but it does also taking care of the RF noise, where the DAVE have a harder time to take care of, witch give you even more 3D depth and atmosphere, it is subtle but there is a slight difference for the better, i have concluded after a couple of thousand hours listening and comparing.


----------



## Mojo ideas

mython said:


> FWIW, I don't actually disagree with you, but differences in viewpoint have existed since time immemorial, and will continue to, long after you and I become dust.
> 
> 
> Rob has diligently sought to educate the community on factors in digital design affecting sound quality, and been generous in describing many aspects of his own design approach, as well as relating some interesting discoveries he's made along the way, some of which surprised even his depth of theoretical understanding.
> ...


 keep it light John it'll soon be Christmas


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> deftone said:
> 
> 
> > I would imagine that the Dave has quality clock system and shouldn't need any femto re clockers.
> ...


 
 The remedy uses a cheap TI sample rate converter chip SRC, so its categorically NOT bit perfect. Conventional SRC process adds a lot of THD and noise, plus has considerable slew rate dependent noise floor modulation. Additionally, the poor interpolation filters degrade timing performance too.
  
 Possibly the fastest way to destroy the sound of Mojo or Dave IMHO...
  
 Rob


----------



## rkt31

already a very big fan of opus 3 records label. check this recording. Bob Barnard & The Swedish Jazz Kings – A tribute to young Louis. this is one of the cleanest and most natural recording imho and very good for showcasing the talent of chord dacs ,specially the depth perception.


----------



## Music Alchemist

Has anyone been able to compare the DAVE to the Linn Klimax DSM with the new Katalyst DAC architecture?
  
 Someone told me the Linn is the only DAC that he likes more than the DAVE and I was curious if others had heard it as well. (Only the Katalyst version.)


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> The remedy uses a cheap TI sample rate converter chip SRC, so its categorically NOT bit perfect. Conventional SRC process adds a lot of THD and noise, plus has considerable slew rate dependent noise floor modulation. Additionally, the poor interpolation filters degrade timing performance too.
> 
> Possibly the fastest way to destroy the sound of Mojo or Dave IMHO...
> 
> Rob




Hi Rob! 

Actually they are using the Crystek CCHD-957 chipset i checked under the "hood" this evening, but i do think it is helping my streamer to performe better on all kinds of DACś i have tried, but i have my DAVE connected in many diffrent ways , so i can toggle btw Toslink straight from the streamer , and on Tos 2 input i got the Remedy in between. 
The same line up in the Coax Spdif inputs. 
Then i am using using the USB input also, but from a diffrent source. 

I like the sound of the Toslink input generates, it feels slight more rich / vivid / lifelike vs USB and Spdif , where the Spdif feels rich but a little to dark sounding vs USB and Toslink, but the USB got the upper hand when it comes to timing and separation , but it feels a slightly to analytical for my taste. 

So with that said, i know how it sounds straight from the streamer without the Remedy clock, and i think it is very subtle, but the synergy with the my streamer + clock + DAVE or Mojo is a very nice combo, because the sound on most tracks with depht got a slight added life and adds little more depht , if it is artificial or mesurment vice more worse, i still think it adds a golden touch for the sound that i like. 

Another input is that many streamers / cd-players got these typ of uppsamling clocks integrated in the design, take the Ultra High End brand Vitus Audio for example that upsamples all data to 192khz, like it or not. 

Right or wrong, it is your ears / brain / taste who have to decide


Merry Christmas! :santa_tone2:✨✨


----------



## analogmusic

music alchemist said:


> Has anyone been able to compare the DAVE to the Linn Klimax DSM with the new Katalyst DAC architecture?
> 
> Someone told me the Linn is the only DAC that he likes more than the DAVE and I was curious if others had heard it as well. (Only the Katalyst version.)


 
  
  
 I am curious too


----------



## rkt31

there are no distortion and S/N specs for linn klimax.


----------



## halloweenman

rob watts said:


> The remedy uses a cheap TI sample rate converter chip SRC, so its categorically NOT bit perfect. Conventional SRC process adds a lot of THD and noise, plus has considerable slew rate dependent noise floor modulation. Additionally, the poor interpolation filters degrade timing performance too.
> 
> Possibly the fastest way to destroy the sound of Mojo or Dave IMHO...
> 
> Rob




Rob, thank you for your valuable contributions to this and other forums. It's so refreshing to read your posts and helpful for music lovers like myself that just want to listen to music with the best possible sound quality. Reading your posts and using your products has given my system a quantum leap in sound quality and most probably saved me a lot of money wasting time trying various bits and bobs.

Have a very merry Christmas!


----------



## gnomen

Yes Rob, second what he said!


----------



## JaZZ

I second that as well. A big thank you, Rob, for your highly appreciated contribution, your dedication and patience! And of course for Hugo, DAVE & Co.


----------



## analogmusic

Thank you too Rob for your FPGA/WTA technology that give me much musical enjoyment every day.


----------



## Rob Watts

Thank-you for your kind comments.
  
 This year has been very crazy, with lots of different projects. One in particular I am looking forward to talking about at CES, as it has been very interesting. I haven't made as much progress on Davina as I had hoped, but I am back on that project now. I also regret not being able to post as much as I would have liked, but I have been very busy. But although incredibly busy - more so than at any other time in my life - things are very exciting. I think and hope that 2017 will prove to be an extremely interesting year, with lots of fresh discoveries and insights in the pipeline.
  
 Anyway, I can't help feeling very thankful for all the progress in musicality that has been made over the past three years, and I would like to extend my thanks to all the team at Chord, notably Matt, who has the difficult task of turning my designs into something that can be reliably produced!
  
 We live in very fortunate times with access to so much music that I personally can now enjoy absolutely anywhere, and for this I am grateful and thankful. I bought myself a Christmas present a few days ago - a 5TB portable hard disk (5TB - isn't that just stunning? my first hard disk was 20MB!!!)- and the 3 volumes of Mercury Living Presence, the RCA Living Stereo Vol 1, and the new DG David Ostrackh Edition box set. I had one of his recordings on Decca The Analogue Years box set (highly recommended - there is something very magical about Decca from 1957 to 1967), and his sheer verve and expression meant I had to try some more of his recordings. 
  
 So happy holidays, and have fun with your music!
  
 Rob


----------



## Beolab

Thanks for everything Rob, you are a true hero incl John and Matthew and the rest on Chord E! 

On My wish list from Santa Rob it says a low end feature, in say 3 steps that boost the sound in 20 , 30, 40 hz would be great for a more dynamic performance frome DAVE if this is possible would have been great in the future

I wich you all an wonderful Christmas, and a happy new year! 

✨✨:santa_tone2::santa_tone2:

Fredrik


----------



## adyc

Thanks Rob for wonderful DAVE. I am a big fan of you. I still keep those in my possession when I first bought them in early 90s. Can you still remember those:


----------



## lovethatsound

beolab said:


> Thanks for everything Rob, you are a true hero incl John and Matthew and the rest on Chord E!
> 
> On My wish list from Santa Rob it says a low end feature, in say 3 steps that boost the sound in 20 , 30, 40 hz would be great for a more dynamic performance frome DAVE if this is possible would have been great in the future
> 
> ...


The whole point of Dave was to make it sound as near to real thing as possible,as i understand it.But each to their own.Merry Christmas Fredrik


----------



## jelt2359

rob watts said:


> Thank-you for your kind comments.
> 
> This year has been very crazy, with lots of different projects. One in particular I am looking forward to talking about at CES, as it has been very interesting. I haven't made as much progress on Davina as I had hoped, but I am back on that project now. I also regret not being able to post as much as I would have liked, but I have been very busy. But although incredibly busy - more so than at any other time in my life - things are very exciting. I think and hope that 2017 will prove to be an extremely interesting year, with lots of fresh discoveries and insights in the pipeline.
> 
> ...


 
 I ran into John in Singapore at an audio show and after I mentioned I was a DAVE owner his ears perked up and with a sparkle in his eye he told me that there's going to be something interesting coming at CES. I recently confirmed with him via PM also that this is going to be ready for sale immediately after the product announcement in the first week of January. So this is clearly not going to be the Davina.
  
 Time to save up, folks! In two weeks' time, you may want to buy yourself a _post-_Christmas present.


----------



## ubs28

Thanks also from me. Chord makes the best products for headphones on the market in my opinion. There really is no substitute.
  
 The Chord Dave will also be the heart of a new speaker setup I'm working on.


----------



## JaZZ

jelt2359 said:


> I ran into John in Singapore at an audio show and after I mentioned I was a DAVE owner his ears perked up and with a sparkle in his eye he told me that there's going to be something interesting coming at CES. I recently confirmed with him via PM also that this is going to be ready for sale immediately after the product announcement in the first week of January. So this is clearly not going to be the Davina.
> 
> Time to save up, folks! In two weeks' time, you may want to buy yourself a _post-_Christmas present.


 
  
 The digital amp to be paired with the DAVE is already going into production? (What else could it be?)


----------



## jelt2359

I said I was a big fan of their dacs, having owned Mojo, Hugo and Dave. No mention of amps anywhere. Rob also says he "looks forward to talking to it at CES" (ie not now), so hopefully it's not a digital amp.


----------



## Light - Man

jelt2359 said:


> I said I was a big fan of their dacs, having owned Mojo, Hugo and Dave. No mention of amps anywhere. Rob also says he "looks forward to talking to it at CES" (ie not now), so hopefully it's not a digital amp.


 
  
 Hopefully it will be something like a new 2Qute DAC with variable voltage output control - for some of us slim cats who only have a small amount of visceral fat.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.....................


----------



## Beolab

lovethatsound said:


> The whole point of Dave was to make it sound as near to real thing as possible,as i understand it.But each to their own.Merry Christmas Fredrik




Yes i know the intetion, but as an add-on feature like the Phase control and the HF filtering etc. 

It should the sound and play the same as it does, but som headphones does not come up to their full potential with DAVE in the lower end. 
It not an power issue, more a little shy in the lower end if you are connecting high end headphones like Focal Utopia, Audeze LCD-4 , HE-6, HE1K, Senn HD800s , Abyss etc.etc. , and i think the DAVE should be made for High End headphones, not low / midi versions like Nighthawks. 

I am not alone to have this opinion to have, because i have 20 Headfi users in this thread who have PM:d me about this.

So it would be a nice feature to take in consideration, then the user can decide buy himself if he wants to use the function or not.


----------



## halloweenman

rob watts said:


> thanks to all the team at Chord, notably Matt, who has the difficult task of turning my designs into something that can be reliably produced!



I had a problem with my TT that Tom and Matt helped me resolve. They were brilliant.


----------



## lovethatsound

jazz said:


> The digital amp to be paired with the DAVE is already going into production? (What else could it be?)


blu 2 cd transport


----------



## ecwl

I'm still at work taking a break so I am going to get everyone riled up by speculating what the CES product is. I'm thinking it's an updated CD player. Because that's the only other product in the pipeline that sounds like it's ready to go. I'm guessing that as they are developing the product, they were surprised by the improvements made just letting the CD player upsampling to 704kHz. The other thing people have been talking about a lot is leakage current from ground loops so I'm also guessing that addressing that issue for the output of the CD player or the power supply improved the sound quite a bit which was probably a surprise.
  
 Of course, I'm hoping the next product at CES is NOT a new CD player (that I have no use for). Maybe they'll start selling software versions of long tap-length WTA algorithms? (which i know is unworkable because most PCs can't do them real-time)
  
 Or even better, maybe the new amplifier will be ready. Please. Please. Please.


----------



## JaZZ

ecwl said:


> Or even better, maybe the new amplifier will be ready. Please. Please. Please.


 
  
 Somehow I hope it's not the amp. So they can take more time for developing an output variant for electrostatic headphones (and since I'm not into speakers anymore).


----------



## Music Alchemist

beolab said:


> Yes i know the intetion, but as an add-on feature like the Phase control and the HF filtering etc.
> 
> It should the sound and play the same as it does, but som headphones does not come up to their full potential with DAVE in the lower end.
> It not an power issue, more a little shy in the lower end if you are connecting high end headphones like Focal Utopia, Audeze LCD-4 , HE-6, HE1K, Senn HD800s , Abyss etc.etc. , and i think the DAVE should be made for High End headphones, not low / midi versions like Nighthawks.
> ...


 
  
 If you just want a bass boost, you can do that for free with a parametric equalizer. The easiest way is to literally boost the bass frequencies by the amount you want, but if you want the best sound quality along with that, you'd have to reduce other frequencies instead. Doing it yourself is the better way since you have much more control.
  
 When I first read about Rob liking the NightHawk more than other headphones, I was surprised. It's a more impressive statement since it came from the person who _designed_ the DAVE. But come to think of it, I don't know what his impressions of ultra-high-end headphones like the Abyss and so on are.
  
 For reference, here is his original post:
  


rob watts said:


> Speaking personally - my current favourite is the AQ Nighthawks.
> 
> Now they are not to every ones taste - a lot of guys at Chord find them way too dark and smooth - but I like them because I can play for 12 hours and am still hungry for more music. By comparison, to me, other HP sound distorted. Moreover, they sound like loudspeakers in terms of tonal balance, and I mostly listen to loudspeakers.
> 
> Do they have faults - yes, they could be more transparent, and the bass is maybe softer than I would like - but they do so many things right.


 
  
 (The NightHawk is actually one of the very few non-electrostats with measured distortion as low as electrostats.)


----------



## kennyb123

It sounds like it might be a "triple launch" at CES:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/big-announcements-coming-chord-electronics-30514/#post602285

One of them will be Mojo-related:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-dac-amp-faq-in-3rd-post/25875#post_13013837


----------



## bmichels

kennyb123 said:


> It sounds like it might be a "triple launch" at CES:
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/big-announcements-coming-chord-electronics-30514/#post602285
> 
> ...


 
  
 At least we know that  *BLU V2* will be announced.  Updated connections to take advantage of DAVE.


----------



## Beolab

music alchemist said:


> If you just want a bass boost, you can do that for free with a parametric equalizer. The easiest way is to literally boost the bass frequencies by the amount you want, but if you want the best sound quality along with that, you'd have to reduce other frequencies instead. Doing it yourself is the better way since you have much more control.
> 
> When I first read about Rob liking the NightHawk more than other headphones, I was surprised. It's a more impressive statement since it came from the person who _designed_ the DAVE. But come to think of it, I don't know what his impressions of ultra-high-end headphones like the Abyss and so on are.
> 
> ...





To Romaz Jr. 


Yes, i am very well aware of EQ:ing, but the quest is to implement it in the design, so the outcome should be in the the purest form.


----------



## JaZZ

beolab said:


> Yes, i am very well aware of EQ:ing, but the quest is to implement it in the design, so the outcome should be in the the purest form.


 
  
 There's nothing you can do wrong with a simple low-shelf filter. You're just trying to find an excuse to not occupy yourself actively with the matter – and with audio generally – instead of staying consumption oriented and uncreative.


----------



## x RELIC x

music alchemist said:


> (The NightHawk is actually one of the very few non-electrostats with measured distortion as low as electrostats.)




The measured distortion and impedance is also remarkably flat for 20Hz-20kHz.

I've shared some PM's with Rob regarding different headphones including the Utopia, ETHER Flow, and Nighthawk and his general impressions closely match mine (though I won't divulge exactly what he's shared regarding the other headphones). I ended up picking up the original Nighthawk when it was on sale for 40% off in November (mostly because of Rob's posts on Head Fi), and I have to say that they really sound fantastic with the Mojo and DAVE.

Some may find them too dark/warm, no doubt about that, but the quality of the music reproduction is superb. In fact, I often reach for them over TOTL headphones simply because they do play music in a very smooth/clean fashion. While the soundstage isn't really large with the Nighthawk the depth is fantastic and that's also where the DAVE shines. Don't be fooled by the price or the size or packaging/marketing with the Nighthawk. They are a surprisingly capable headphones if you want a warmer smooth sound. They also respond very well to EQ if you want to lower some of the mid-bass and raise some upper mids/treble.

Here are my brief impressions compared to the Utopia (another very low distortion performer): 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/749762/audioquest-nighthawk-impressions-and-discussion-thread/4425#post_13015512


----------



## Beolab

jazz said:


> There's nothing you can do wrong with a simple low-shelf filter. You're just trying to find an excuse to not occupy yourself actively with the matter – and with audio generally – instead of staying consumption oriented and uncreative.




Actually i have bin through that jearney, with video gaming and building and tweaking liquid cooled or fanless computers for best possible SQ incl all sorts of SW audio programs etc etc etc trust me.. 

I am buying into high end products for a few reasons and one is that i like it minimal and DAVE can ashive very elegant, but i do not only speak for my self when i say that i for one want some sort of intelligent circuit in Robś design that can adjust only the lowest tones, more advanced than an EQ that "filter" and loose transparancy of the hole signal.
 I want it to be more pronounced, so please try to stop argue on what i want here, it is only a simple quest and a input for the future development , but i can take it on PM with Rob directly insted. 

If it going to happen or not can only Chord and Rob decide in the future.


----------



## Music Alchemist

x relic x said:


> The measured distortion and impedance is also remarkably flat for 20Hz-20kHz.
> 
> I've shared some PM's with Rob regarding different headphones including the Utopia, ETHER Flow, and Nighthawk and his general impressions closely match mine (though I won't divulge exactly what he's shared regarding the other headphones). I ended up picking up the original Nighthawk when it was on sale for 40% off in November (mostly because of Rob's posts on Head Fi), and I have to say that they really sound fantastic with the Mojo and DAVE.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for all that info. (I read your other post as well.)
  
 Do you think you could describe how the NightHawk scales going from the Mojo to the DAVE?
  
 The recent sale price everyone talks about is applicable to dealers, but the NightHawk has been available for $350 on (the American) Amazon for some time now, and I anticipate things to stay that way.
  
 Just for fun, here's a glamor shot of the DAVE with the NightHawk.
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!










  
 It's intriguing how one's taste in aesthetics can change over time. I used to think the black DAVE was ugly and the silver one was gorgeous, but now the black one appeals to me more.


----------



## Beolab

x relic x said:


> The measured distortion and impedance is also remarkably flat for 20Hz-20kHz.
> 
> I've shared some PM's with Rob regarding different headphones including the Utopia, ETHER Flow, and Nighthawk and his general impressions closely match mine (though I won't divulge exactly what he's shared regarding the other headphones). I ended up picking up the original Nighthawk when it was on sale for 40% off in November (mostly because of Rob's posts on Head Fi), and I have to say that they really sound fantastic with the Mojo and DAVE.
> 
> ...




Not to be frank here , but then we all can just buy one set of first gen Nighthawks and hook it up to our beloved DAVEś, and be happy chaps for a few years time towards, if it was that easy 

I have listened to the Nighthawks and the HD650 on the DAVE just for fun, and if you are happy with that type of sound, i think many in here have missed out what real
 High End hifi is all about, and there is much for you still to discover  

If you like top flat linear "dark dull" sound then buy the AQś, but if you want anything that moves you we need something else..

If you ever get the chance to listen to Senn HE-90 orpheus , here we got sound that move you in the soul.( even if they maybe not worthy their price and got some small issues) I think why listen to perfect linear flat paper dry lifeless sound, like a studio mastering producer, our life is to short for that in my opinion. 

Just my 3 cents.. 

Merry Christmas!! :santa_tone2::santa_tone2:


----------



## x RELIC x

Music Alchemist, with the Mojo the Nighthawk has less extension and less 'oomph' than with the DAVE. With the DAVE the depth feels greater and the overall sense of realism is greater. Mojo feels 'thinner' overall and DAVE feels more 'full', more encompassing. That's the general sense I get comparing the two sources with the Nighthawk. Of course there is also the micro detail and analogue like qualities that the DAVE does better than the Mojo. With the warm signature of the Nighthawk it is slightly a little more difficult to tell the differences in micro detail vs with other headphones, but I never really feel like anything is being masked from either source.

I love the contrast with the nickle and black casing. It's so subjective, but there was never any doubt for me which version I preferred.


----------



## Deftone

I'm known for buying stuff in silver as I think I'll prefer it then a week later long for the black finish lol


----------



## JaZZ

beolab said:


> ...more advanced than an EQ that "filter" and loose transparancy of the hole signal.


 
  
 A simple low-shelf filter with fixed characteristic certainly isn't «more advanced» than any well-designed parametric equalizer that would offer you the flexibility you need to achieve sonic perfection. Maybe you mix up digital equalizers with the analogue counterparts – which indeed corrupt transparency (the reason why I never could use them except for supporting the development of crossover filter networks). In turn software equalizers all work more or less the same and shouldn't affect transparency in the least, provided you use them for equalizing instead of coloring. Rob would implement a corresponding bass boost in the DAVE on the very same basis. And he explicitly recommends equalizing instead of re-amplifying (for altering the tonal balance) exactly because the latter method preserves transparency.
  
 BTW, no offense meant, I was just going a little overboard with my sarcastic banter.


----------



## x RELIC x

beolab said:


> Not to be frank here , but then we all can just buy one set of first gen Nighthawks and hook it up to our beloved DAVEś, and be happy chaps for a few years time towards, if it was that easy
> 
> I have listened to the Nighthawks and the HD650 on the DAVE just for fun, and if you are happy with that type of sound, i think many in here have missed out what real
> High End hifi is all about, and there is much for you still to discover
> ...




Lol, I never said it was the best. Just that I'm very happy, and surprised, with the performance and that the signature is very pleasant to listen to if someone wants a warm/smooth headphone. I haven't heard the Orpheus but I do own the Utopia and ETHER Flow, as well as other headphones. I love the Nighthawk for their low distortion and warm sound. I love the Utopia for their punchy and revealing sound and incredible technical prowess. Different flavours, different presentation, different tastes. I hate the HD800 (although I recognize their technical ability) but others love them. To each their own. 

For the price of the Nighthawk I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them based on their performance if someone was looking for that particular sound signature.

Happy holidays to you as well, all the best!


----------



## JaZZ

...and merry Christmas to all – especially _Craig_ and _Fredrik!_


----------



## Beolab

jazz said:


> A simple low-shelf filter with fixed characteristic certainly isn't «more advanced» than any well-designed parametric equalizer that would offer you the flexibility you need to achieve sonic perfection. Maybe you mix up digital equalizers with the analogue counterparts – which indeed corrupt transparency (the reason why I never could use them except for supporting the development of crossover filter networks). In turn software equalizers all work more or less the same and shouldn't affect transparency in the least, provided you use them for equalizing instead of coloring. Rob would implement a corresponding bass boost in the DAVE on the very same basis. And he explicitly recommends equalizing instead of re-amplifying (for altering the tonal balance) exactly because the latter method preserves transparency.
> 
> BTW, no offense meant, I was just going a little overboard with my sarcastic banter.




Yes no offence taken  

I have already fixed this low end issue long time ago, ( i do not use any PC / Mac for my setup, i have striped down my setup, but in the best of worlds i would like just a compact streamer ( that i already got) and a DAVE DAC that can drive my headphones, with the option to choose a slight 1 or 2 db in the lower end, that is what also Roy and many more wants integrated in the design, by the book or not, it should be as an option, free to use or not.

Hope you following me, i am not search for advice this is just a Quest for future implementations. 

Have a great great Christmas now guys! 
 ✨
 ✨✨
✨
 ✨ ✨✨
✨✨
 ✨✨✨✨
✨✨✨✨

 :santa_tone2::santa_tone2::santa_tone2::santa_tone2::santa_tone2::santa_tone2::santa_tone2::santa_tone2::santa_tone2::santa_tone2:


----------



## hattrick15

I currently have an Auralic Vega DAC and SimAudio 430HA amp and using them with Focal Utopia headphones.  I keep on reading a lot about how great the DAVE is with the Utopia.  Does anyone have first-hand experience that can compare how the sound would change if I replaced the Vega with the DAVE?  Would I need the 430HA?


----------



## x RELIC x

jazz said:


> ...and merry Christmas to all – especially _Craig_ and _Fredrik!_




Back at you Marcel! All the best for the new year! Looks like we'll need to save some pennies for the new announcements at CES!


----------



## hrq12345

hattrick15 said:


> I currently have an Auralic Vega DAC and SimAudio 430HA amp and using them with Focal Utopia headphones.  I keep on reading a lot about how great the DAVE is with the Utopia.  Does anyone have first-hand experience that can compare how the sound would change if I replaced the Vega with the DAVE?  Would I need the 430HA?


 
  
 You definitely need the 430HA. I just heard the DAVE+Utopia yesterday and DAVE itself can't drive Utopia very well, but is superb when paired with a decent amplifier. (The amp I heard was Goldmund Telos THA-2)


----------



## bmichels

May I wish a merry Christmas to all .....


----------



## WoSoLoo

Just want to say thank you for DAVE production team, not only it is a best DAC, but also a best Headphone amp.
 During the days my amplifiers is sent back for upgrade, I can listen headphones.
 For enjoy my time I setup a wonderful system: Sennheiser HD 800S & Focal Utopia Headphones with Chord Electronics DAVE.
Personally I like Utopia + DAVE






 
 Greetings, Merry Chirstmas ^^


----------



## x RELIC x

hrq12345 said:


> You definitely need the 430HA. I just heard the DAVE+Utopia yesterday and *DAVE itself can't drive Utopia very well*, but is superb when paired with a decent amplifier. (The amp I heard was Goldmund Telos THA-2)




Rubbish, I would disagree with this 1000%. The DAVE can easily drive the Utopia, and also drives it very well, and within the lower range of available volume. I have the Cavalli Liquid Gold amp as well and the only thing it brings to the table is it's own flavour with the Utopia. Owning all three components I much prefer the Utopia paired directly from the DAVE.


----------



## Nik

Hard to believe that Dave can't drive perfectly the Utopia... May be not the very best for the Abyss... But for the Utopia... YES!!!


----------



## ubs28

hrq12345 said:


> You definitely need the 430HA. I just heard the DAVE+Utopia yesterday and DAVE itself can't drive Utopia very well, but is superb when paired with a decent amplifier. (The amp I heard was Goldmund Telos THA-2)


 

 Probably it's colour what you heard rather than the Chord Dave underpowering the Focal Utopia's.


----------



## Nik

hrq12345 said:


> You definitely need the 430HA. I just heard the DAVE+Utopia yesterday and DAVE itself can't drive Utopia very well, but is superb when paired with a decent amplifier. (The amp I heard was Goldmund Telos THA-2)




But... Dave - > Goldmund = two DACS... , may be not the best match...


----------



## x RELIC x

nik said:


> But... Dave - > Goldmund = two DACS... , may be not the best match...




Had to have used the analogue in on the Goldmund as the DAVE doesn't have digital out (not standard anyway).


----------



## Nik

Analog in on the Goldmund goes to the internal DAC, same as the digital in... No way to use the THA2 as amplifier...
(Dave has BNC digital output)


----------



## miketlse

nik said:


> Analog in on the Goldmund goes to the internal DAC, same as the digital in... No way to use the THA2 as amplifier...


 
 So the Goldmund would route the analogue input, through an ADC then through a DAC, in order to get analogue out?
  
  
 I know that the Devialet does the same, in order to amplify/equalize the inputs from turntables, but the Goldmund is being used for a different use case.


----------



## Nik

Yes, all the Goldmund inputs goes to the internal DSP and DAC... So, it is better to use the digital input (one step less)...


----------



## Mython

Why is this even being discussed in the DAVE thread? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   It's the _antithesis_ of what DAVE is about!
  
 Merry Christmas, everyone


----------



## Nik

Why antithesis? They are two different digital headphones amplifiers, with different sound... Goldmund has DSP, DAC and discrete amplifier, Dave no internal amplifer, but headphone output as the Goldmund has...


----------



## miketlse

nik said:


> Why antithesis? They are two different digital headphones amplifiers, with different sound... Goldmund has DSP, DAC and discrete amplifier, Dave no internal amplifer, but headphone output as the Goldmund has...


 
 DAVE is designed to produce the pure unadulterated sound, and I presume that the Goldmund is designed to use DSP to 'colour' the sound to the owners taste.
  
 Some audiophiles like purity, but others like colour - they are both opposite ends of the spectrum, but ' _à chacun son goût' ._


----------



## Nik

Goldmund colored sound??? NO, absolutely... I had both... May be the Goldmund sound is typical Swiss sound, a bit sterile... But never colored! Internal DSP is just to read the electrical specs of the headphones you have plugged on it, they are two fantastic different objects!


----------



## miketlse

nik said:


> Goldmund colored sound??? NO, absolutely... I had both... May be the Goldmund sound is typical Swiss sound, a bit sterile... But never colored! Internal DSP is just to read the electrical specs of the headphones you have plugged on it, they are two fantastic different objects!


 
 DSP must surely be doing more than measuring the specs of the headphones (Digital Signal Processing).


----------



## Nik

http://absolutehiend.com/index.php/goldmund-hda-telos-headphone-amplifier.html

... Las but not least, Goldmund innovates again with the first headphone amplifier that is upgradable to match specifically your own Headphone characteristics thanks to its built-in DSP. The Telos Headphone Amplifier will quickly become THE MUST HAVE...


----------



## miketlse

nik said:


> http://absolutehiend.com/index.php/goldmund-hda-telos-headphone-amplifier.html
> 
> ... Las but not least, Goldmund innovates again with the first headphone amplifier that is upgradable to match specifically your own Headphone characteristics thanks to its built-in DSP. The Telos Headphone Amplifier will quickly become THE MUST HAVE...


 
  
 That explains what the overall system is doing:
  

The Goldmund takes the input signal, then uses DSP to tailor (or even add binaural effects) the output signal to suit your headphones. The owners may love the result, but it is very different to the transparent unadulterated sound that is the objective of the DAVE.


----------



## Nik

Listening both the Dave and the Goldmund I can't say if the Dave is more transparent, may be... But this do not depending by DSP, just by the internal Goldmund amplifer, that Dave do not have... But Goldmund has more power for low sensitive headphones... Positive and negative aspects on both... 
Depending by the headphones adopted... 
With my Abyss I have opted for another way.... No more Dave, no more Goldmund...


----------



## Mediahound

Chord says you should try not to use some external amplifier with their products because doing so you are getting further away from the excellent DAC and the Chord digital volume control/amp and will lose some resolution. I have definitely noticed this myself with my HugoTT. All an amplifier adds it's it's own sound signature at the expense of some resolution. 

There are probably only one or two headphone models in the world where more powerful amp would be needed.


----------



## TheAttorney

jazz said:


> In turn software equalizers all work more or less the same and shouldn't affect transparency in the least, provided you use them for equalizing instead of coloring.


 
 If only this were true, I'd be happy in finding a simple solution to sorting out each headphone's tonal foibles.
 But my brief foray into s/w EQ showed me that it can do more harm than good - to the point that I always preferred EQ switched out.
  
 This was using  a trial version of DMG's EQuick plugged into JRMC.
 Now, DMG is a respected "pro" supplier to recording studios etc. Equick is their simplified, entry level version, but nevertheless costs real money to buy. So I had high hopes for this EQ s/w being transparent - but it wasn't.
  
 This was using default setup parameters. Now, I'm prepared to believe that adjusting this and that could have improved transparency to the point I wouldn't notice, but I didn't want to start a whole new journey of faffing around for hours trying to tweak a new type of solution - I already do enough of that with my main rig )


----------



## JaZZ

theattorney said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > In turn software equalizers all work more or less the same and shouldn't affect transparency in the least, provided you use them for equalizing instead of coloring.
> ...


 
  
 That's not my experience at all – and I occupy myself intensively and extensively with eqalizing since quite a while. But it's true that it requires a lot of patience, the first quick results are oftentimes disappointing. And the wrong curves may very well produce colorations leading to reduced transparency. Since transparency is not least a function of optimally reduced masking effects caused by dominating frequency bands relative to underrepresented frequency bands. Of course harmonic distortion is one of the main causes of lacking transparency, but no software equalizer should introduce any (apart from clipping, which can easily be avoided).


----------



## Music Alchemist

theattorney said:


> If only this were true, I'd be happy in finding a simple solution to sorting out each headphone's tonal foibles.
> But my brief foray into s/w EQ showed me that it can do more harm than good - to the point that I always preferred EQ switched out.
> 
> This was using  a trial version of DMG's EQuick plugged into JRMC.
> ...


 
  
 Proponents of equalization (including myself) recommend doing it the right way: adjusting the exact amount for every frequency to attain the most accurate frequency response. (And usually cutting frequencies instead of boosting.) To be fair, this requires many hours of hard work. There are far more ways of doing it wrong and ruining the sound, especially if you don't know what you're doing. Using default parameters (whatever that means) is pointless too. There _is_ software like Sonarworks that can instantly apply specific settings for specific headphones to make them follow a certain compensation curve...but it's a proprietary one that, in my opinion, should only be used as a starting point. Anyway, other methods to alter the frequency response (like using a tube amp with colored tubes that may also add harmonic distortion) don't compare at all to _effective_ equalization. (Which, again, would involve the highest degree of accuracy for all frequencies.) It's like comparing throwing paint at a wall to composing a masterpiece with a fine-tipped brush.


----------



## TheAttorney

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about getting thr EQ parameters wrong - I can successfully adjust the frequency curve to any tonal charateristics I want.
 I'm talking about a loss of transparency simply by activating the equalizer. I can demonstrate this to myself by keeping the EQ more or less flat and I can still hear a drop in SQ when it's activated.
  
 By "default parameters", I mean that pro EQ s/w has all sorts of settings that have nothig to do with adjustiing the frequency response - it's about the way the app processes the signal in the background. I can't remember any now in detail, but to give an idea of the type of thing I'm talking about, they may include such parameters as "buffer size", "latency" etc.
 I lurked on pro forums for a while to know that the pro users claim all sorts of such adjustments can improve SQ. And they also claim that their prefered s/w package sounded better than other s/w packages. All in all, it sounded very involved to me, so i didn't pursue any further. I didn't want to study for a degree on this topic - just use something that works out the box!
  
 It's possible thatthe issue was in the interface between JRMC and EQuick. But again, too much faff to find out.


----------



## Music Alchemist

theattorney said:


> Just to be clear, I'm not talking about getting thr EQ parameters wrong - I can successfully adjust the frequency curve to any tonal charateristics I want.
> I'm talking about a loss of transparency simply by activating the equalizer. I can demonstrate this to myself by keeping the EQ more or less flat and I can still hear a drop in SQ when it's activated.
> 
> By "default parameters", I mean that pro EQ s/w has all sorts of settings that have nothig to do with adjustiing the frequency response - it's about the way the app processes the signal in the background. I can't remember any now in detail, but to give an idea of the type of thing I'm talking about, they may include such parameters as "buffer size", "latency" etc.
> ...


 
  
 Ah, I see. I'm sure there are some EQ programs that could interfere with things more than others. But I also believe that some programs don't interfere at all. I mean, even the basic tone controls in foobar2000 don't change the sound when set to flat and compared to having the plugin deactivated. I can understand the aversion to EQ, at any rate. It just involves more effort than most are willing to invest in.


----------



## JaZZ

music alchemist said:


> theattorney said:
> 
> 
> > Just to be clear, I'm not talking about getting thr EQ parameters wrong - I can successfully adjust the frequency curve to any tonal charateristics I want.
> ...


 
  
 Exactly! That's my experience as well. Also with xnor's foobar2000 EQ plugin. The same with the equalizers in my FiiOs X3 Ii and X5 II. I can imagine that some «Pro» equalizers (which I never tried) may be prone to this, rather than simple ones. After all the complex computer processing itself could cause interferences. But why care about latency (e.g.) in pure audio playback! Well, I certainly don't want the DAVE's phenomenal transparency to be compromized! I wouldn't tolerate if any EQ would do that.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

It is interesting to see, despite the recording industry completely eschewing analogue Graphic Equalisers (and subsequently therefore software GE's by default) because it was universally acknowledged that GE's destroyed phase, that they have been resurrected in software form for audiophiles. (Maybe the software equivalent isn't as destructive?) I must admit I wouldn't touch a GE but only because I have grown up with Parametrics and hi and lo pass filters because they were less damaging. I would recommend parametrics if they are commercially available as they can be very powerful and focussed solutions once a person is experienced with them. As Alchemist mentions earlier, a subtractive discipline is usually more likely to deliver clean results (as in less likely to unwittingly affect frequencies that you were already happy with). 

Are there any Parametric and hi/lo pass filter software options out there right right now just out of interest? If not I suspect there may be a commercial opportunity in that vacuum.


----------



## Music Alchemist

daveredref-iii said:


> Are there any Parametric and hi/lo pass filter software options out there right right now just out of interest? If not I suspect there may be a commercial opportunity in that vacuum.


 
  
 Pretty much any digital audiophile who is serious about EQ uses parametric equalizers. Two free ones are Equalizer APO and Electri-Q.


----------



## JaZZ

The main reason why analogue equalizers are avoided nowadays (and rightly so) isn't phase distortion in the first place, but the bunch of electronics components in the signal path that all imprint themselves on the signal (likely in the form of harmonic distortion and modulation noise) – as Rob Watts sais: Every single electronics component reduces transparency, even cables and solder joints. Phase distortion is an inevitable by-product of any frequency-response distortion, and that also applies to existing nonlinearities e.g. in sound tranducers. So a perfectly inverse frequency-response distortion will recreate a perfectly linear phase response in addition to a linear amplitude response.
  
 It's clear that parametric equalizers offer the better precondition than graphical equalizers for an equalization as perfect as possible, but the phase distortions produced by the latter are only half as harmful considering their still existing phase-response compensation capability. And BTW, once you see the real-world (acoustic!) phase response of a sound transducer, particularly headphone, you may ask yourself if it's worth caring about phase distortions of a magnitude as in (graphic) equalizers at all. The phase distortions produced by an unequalized headphone are much larger. Add to this that the audibility of phase distortions per se is disputed.
  
 I for one can absolutely live with the octave equalizer in my FiiO X5 II and the ⅓-octave xnor/foobar equalizer for my DAVE for now. Does anybody know of a good parametric equalizer for _foobar2000_?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

At least somebody is flying the flag then MA.


----------



## JaZZ

Dave, could you explain? I don't understand a word (non-native speaker here).


----------



## Music Alchemist

jazz said:


> Does anybody know of a good parametric equalizer for _foobar2000_?


 
  
 You can use Electri-Q in foobar2000, but you'll need to install a VST plugin first. (Just Google it.) Equalizer APO can also apply EQ to everything on the computer.


----------



## rkt31

http://www.furutech.com/2015/03/10/10672/ I got 1.5m cord made from this furutech bulk cable. this cable supposedly beats even the most expensive power cables on earth. I used it with my benchmark ahb2 power amp and there were definite improvements specially the headroom and air, music had much more natural flow. this can be a very good option for Dave as Dave does not need very thick cables.


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## hrq12345

nik said:


> But... Dave - > Goldmund = two DACS... , may be not the best match...


 
 Just used the amp part of Goldmund. I don't think it was doing anything from the DAC part. Don't know why so many people are arguing about this.


----------



## WoSoLoo

hattrick15 said:


> I currently have an Auralic Vega DAC and SimAudio 430HA amp and using them with Focal Utopia headphones.  I keep on reading a lot about how great the DAVE is with the Utopia.  Does anyone have first-hand experience that can compare how the sound would change if I replaced the Vega with the DAVE?  Would I need the 430HA?





  
 I have 800s  and Utopia, Utopia + dave is great 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
 Bass from Utopia with Dave is deep strong and very detail you cannot imagine the sound come from a headphone


----------



## Nik

hrq12345 said:


> Just used the amp part of Goldmund. I don't think it was doing anything from the DAC part. Don't know why so many people are arguing about this.




As I said before, the rca input on the Goldmund goes to the internal DAC, no way to use the Goldmund as others headphones amplifier... 
So you give analogical signal that goes to the DAC that convert another time on analogical signal... So better if you use the digital input in the Goldmund...


----------



## hrq12345

nik said:


> As I said before, the rca input on the Goldmund goes to the internal DAC, no way to use the Goldmund as others headphones amplifier...
> So you give analogical signal that goes to the DAC that convert another time on analogical signal... So better if you use the digital input in the Goldmund...




Okay now I get what you guys are talking about. I think I probably remembered wrongly and the goldmund was just connecting to a digital source. Dave was just happened to be turned on at the same time. But I did listen to Dave itself drive Utopia and I still think it's good, just not that good. Sorry about the confusion.


----------



## miketlse

hrq12345 said:


> Okay now I get what you guys are talking about. I think I probably remembered wrongly and the goldmund was just connecting to a digital source. Dave was just happened to be turned on at the same time. But I did listen to Dave itself drive Utopia and I still think it's good, just not that good. Sorry about the confusion.


 
  
 Not a problem.
  
 In your original post http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/6300#post_13114065 you were sure of the facts, but now you are not confident what was connected to what.
  
 People weren't trying to 'have a go' at you, but were just trying to understand your 'experience' which was different to many other members experiences.
  
 Bon Noel


----------



## Music Alchemist

rkt31 said:


> this cable supposedly beats even the most expensive power cables on earth.


 
  
 Can you link me to the comparisons you know of? I'd especially like to see which specific cables were involved to make such a strong statement.
  
 I know @romaz uses the High Fidelity Cables Professional Series Power Cable (which is $20,900 and up) with his DAVE and said it made a world of difference.
  
 I don't even plan on touching expensive cables until everything else is taken care of...but it would be a shame if I spent five figures on them just to find an affordable cable that sounded better.


----------



## EVOLVIST

So, for all DAVE owners, when plugging right into the DAVE with your headphones, what volume range does the DAVE read and with which headphones are you using? 

I'm trying to get as many answers as possible, as this came up in the Focal Utopia thread. 

Thank much! Happy holidays!


----------



## WoSoLoo

evolvist said:


> So, for all DAVE owners, when plugging right into the DAVE with your headphones, what volume range does the DAVE read and with which headphones are you using?
> 
> I'm trying to get as many answers as possible, as this came up in the Focal Utopia thread.
> 
> Thank much! Happy holidays!


 
 For 800s -20dB ~ -5dB
 For Utopia -28dB ~ 15dB
 I like to listen a little bit louder


----------



## EVOLVIST

wosoloo said:


> For 800s -20dB ~ -5dB
> For Utopia -28dB ~ 15dB
> I like to listen a little bit louder




What is your transport?


----------



## WoSoLoo

evolvist said:


> What is your transport?


 
 CD  Chord Red3 ~optical,
 CAS Aurrender X100L ~USB


----------



## izzard1982

evolvist said:


> So, for all DAVE owners, when plugging right into the DAVE with your headphones, what volume range does the DAVE read and with which headphones are you using?
> 
> I'm trying to get as many answers as possible, as this came up in the Focal Utopia thread.
> 
> Thank much! Happy holidays!




HD800: -27
Utopia: -31
LCD4: -15
HEK: -22

mR to DAVE


----------



## EVOLVIST

izzard1982 said:


> HD800: -27
> Utopia: -31
> LCD4: -15
> HEK: -22
> ...




Are you using Roon? If so, what are your volume settings?


----------



## rkt31

truly speaking i have not tested myself furutech custom made power cable against ultra high end readymade power cables, but the dealer himself sells both furutech and some ultra high end power cables and he was able to test furutech custom cable against those expensive readymade power cables and as per him it was no contest. a furutech custom cable of worth $350 was better than many a thousand $ readymade cable. actually what i could understand that readymade power cables invariably come in very heavy gauge and imho for most of the applications and short lengths that much heavy gauge is of not much use. here those custom cables made from furutech bulk cables of lighter gauge but with much more advance technology like alpha nano ag-au can be much more cheaper than ultra high end readymade cables and yet perform better.


----------



## Music Alchemist

rkt31 said:


> truly speaking i have not tested myself furutech custom made power cable against ultra high end readymade power cables, but the dealer himself sells both furutech and some ultra high end power cables and he was able to test furutech custom cable against those expensive readymade power cables and as per him it was no contest. a furutech custom cable of worth $350 was better than many a thousand $ readymade cable. actually what i could understand that readymade power cables invariably come in very heavy gauge and imho for most of the applications and short lengths that much heavy gauge is of not much use. here those custom cables made from furutech bulk cables of lighter gauge but with much more advance technology like alpha nano ag-au can be much more cheaper than ultra high end readymade cables and yet perform better.


 
  
 Thanks for sharing. If you learn of the names of those specific cables in the future and can share those as well, it would be appreciated. It would be nice to have such a reference point to avoid those and perhaps try the Furutech, comparing it to certain others, when the time comes.


----------



## izzard1982

evolvist said:


> Are you using Roon? If so, what are your volume settings?




Yes, I'm using Roon with output set to HQPlayer which has all the processing turned off. In Roon, the volume is set to fixed.


----------



## EVOLVIST

izzard1982 said:


> Yes, I'm using Roon with output set to HQPlayer which has all the processing turned off. In Roon, the volume is set to fixed.




See, this is what I don't get. I have Roon set to fixed, as well, going into my DAVE through a Curious cable link. I have my Focal Utopias connected to the DAVE's HP out. But here's the thing: my volume on the DAVE rangers from -14 to 0db. 

At first you would think that my hearing is zapped, because just like you, other people are reporting -40 to -20db. However, my wife listens to my above mentioned levels, as well as my 13-year old son, and it is not too loud for them either. Moreover, I've had my ears tested professionally and I can hear from 30hz to 16kHz with ease. 

I figure it has to be something in a setting somewhere, but I just can't figure it out, because I already have Roon set to fixed volume. It's becoming crazy that I can't figure it out.


----------



## jlbrach

evolvist said:


> Are you using Roon? If so, what are your volume settings?


 
 This is about the same for me with my Utopia and LCD-4 straight out of the Dave with my AK120 as a source....my LCD-4 would range from about -18 to -3 and my Utopia from -40 to -20


----------



## x RELIC x

evolvist said:


> See, this is what I don't get. I have Roon set to fixed, as well, going into my DAVE through a Curious cable link. I have my Focal Utopias connected to the DAVE's HP out. But here's the thing: my volume on the DAVE rangers from -14 to 0db.
> 
> At first you would think that my hearing is zapped, because just like you, other people are reporting -40 to -20db. However, my wife listens to my above mentioned levels, as well as my 13-year old son, and it is not too loud for them either. Moreover, I've had my ears tested professionally and I can hear from 30hz to 16kHz with ease.
> 
> I figure it has to be something in a setting somewhere, but I just can't figure it out, because I already have Roon set to fixed volume. It's becoming crazy that I can't figure it out.




Download a SPL meter app to your smartphone and roughly measure what the dB output is from the Utopia earcups driven at the volume setting you listen at (similar to the pic I posted in the Utopia thread - you don't really need the foam covering the earcup like I have). This will get you a ballpark measurement and you can then be sure if you and those around you simply like listening really loud, or if the output is actually low for the DAVE's set volume.


----------



## jlbrach

evolvist said:


> See, this is what I don't get. I have Roon set to fixed, as well, going into my DAVE through a Curious cable link. I have my Focal Utopias connected to the DAVE's HP out. But here's the thing: my volume on the DAVE rangers from -14 to 0db.
> 
> At first you would think that my hearing is zapped, because just like you, other people are reporting -40 to -20db. However, my wife listens to my above mentioned levels, as well as my 13-year old son, and it is not too loud for them either. Moreover, I've had my ears tested professionally and I can hear from 30hz to 16kHz with ease.
> 
> I figure it has to be something in a setting somewhere, but I just can't figure it out, because I already have Roon set to fixed volume. It's becoming crazy that I can't figure it out.


 
 seems to me the first thing to do would be to change the source and see if it differs...something is amiss for sure


----------



## ecwl

Evolvist's situation is strange since I also listen to Utopia with DAVE in the -45 to -25dB range and even though some visitors crank it up to -30 to -10dB range, I've never had anyone need -20 to 0dB with the Utopia. If Roon is playing bit-perfect at fixed volume, I suspect either Windows/OS X is not outputting in a bit-perfect manner to Chord DAVE.
  
 https://kb.roonlabs.com/Audio_Setup_Basics
  
 I don't use Roon so I may not really know what I'm talking about.
 Do you have Roon send the signal directly to Chord DAVE or is the Roon signal sent to the System Output audio driver. Because if it is, it's possible that your Windows/OS X volume control is still on so it is attenuating Roon's bit-perfect signal to a lower volume digitally. To me, that's the only thing that makes sense.


----------



## EVOLVIST

x relic x said:


> Download a SPL meter app to your smartphone and roughly measure what the dB output is from the Utopia earcups driven at the volume setting you listen at (similar to the pic I posted in the Utopia thread - you don't really need the foam covering the earcup like I have). This will get you a ballpark measurement and you can then be sure if you and those around you simply like listening really loud, or if the output is actually low for the DAVE's set volume.


 
  
 Okay, I did this. With the DAVE at 0db with one SPL meter I was reading in the 70 dbs and with another SPL meter in the 90dbs with the FUs. I think the 2nd SPL meter is a little more wonky because in a dead silent room it's reading in the 50db range. The first SPL meter which gave me 70 dbs at 0db on the DAVE, in a dead silent room it is reading 18-20dbs.


ecwl said:


> Evolvist's situation is strange since I also listen to Utopia with DAVE in the -45 to -25dB range and even though some visitors crank it up to -30 to -10dB range, I've never had anyone need -20 to 0dB with the Utopia. If Roon is playing bit-perfect at fixed volume, I suspect either Windows/OS X is not outputting in a bit-perfect manner to Chord DAVE.
> 
> https://kb.roonlabs.com/Audio_Setup_Basics
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, I've read all of these schinitz. I've got a clear signal path with all purple in Roon.
  
  


jlbrach said:


> seems to me the first thing to do would be to change the source and see if it differs...something is amiss for sure


 
  
 I hooked up my DAVE straight to my laptop, using JRiver, with the Cord ASIO driver and I'm still getting the same levels. I mean -40 db is very, very low if 0db is considered unity gain. But, I guess we're not measuring dbs with the DAVE like that, are we? Evidently not if 0db on the DAVE is considered to be very loud.
  
 With my old headphone amp, an SPL Auditor, comfortable listening was right below or above unity gain at 0db, with a fixed signal coming from my DAC.
  
 Yet, regardless of this, and if I can hear a wasp fart at 3ft away or not, something is wrong.
  
 So my 13-year old son who is not used to listening to loud music. I put on some metal. "Battery" from Metallica's _Master of Puppets_ album. He has the FUs on his head and I start off at -38db. He can hear the music obviously. Eventually he settles on -16db which sounds comfortable to him. For me the same track, where I can really feel it, is at -10db. That's a 6db difference. Of course I'm 43, so imagine my ears aren't what they used to be. Still, when he listened at -10db he felt no discomfort and said that it wasn't too loud. He was rocking out!
  
 I'm thinking am I losing my hearing? Well, I can still rub my fingers by my ears and hear the swirls rub together with no problem. My son was about 20ft away from me, and he whispered things and I could hear him. So, really, I don't know What. Amplitude in a natural environment doesn't seem like a problem.
  
 And btw, this is the 2nd DAVE I've had at my home, so it's not this DAVE or that one.
  
 It seems I recall Rob Watts saying something like at +6db the DAVE would introduce distortion, but that it didn't matter at the level because you would be blowing out your ears anyway. I wonder if that implies good listening levels are anything below that mark, within reason. I know that +6dbs would tear my head off.
  
 Lastly of note, I have almost zero dynamically compressed music in my collection. I just don't listen to it. It hurts my ears. I'm sure with some of those hyper compressed/limited albums that the volume must come way down lest it drives one's ears wonky.
  
 There's only one last thing I can think of, and that's to contact the cats who sold me my mRendu + SonicOrbiter.


----------



## x RELIC x

evolvist said:


> Okay, I did this. With the DAVE at 0db with one SPL meter I was reading in the 70 dbs and with another SPL meter in the 90dbs with the FUs. I think the 2nd SPL meter is a little more wonky because in a dead silent room it's reading in the 50db range. The first SPL meter which gave me 70 dbs at 0db on the DAVE, in a dead silent room it is reading 18-20dbs.




The plot thickens! :blink:




evolvist said:


> I'm thinking am I losing my hearing? *Well, I can still rub my fingers by my ears and hear the swirls rub together with no problem*. My son was about 20ft away from me, and he whispered things and I could hear him. So, really, I don't know What. Amplitude in a natural environment doesn't seem like a problem.




This is a sure sign that the levels played from the Utopia aren't too loud. I do this all the time as well and it measures (again, roughly) anywhere between 70-90 dB (peak) depending on how close to the mic my fingers are and how vigorously I rub them. I do this during the loud passages to try to keep myself from much hearing risk while 'rockin' out'.




evolvist said:


> And btw, this is the 2nd DAVE I've had at my home, so it's not this DAVE or that one.




I highly doubt that two DAVE's would have the same 'issue' (forgive me if your other one didn't have the same 'issue'). The source would be the most likely culprit, but I have nothing more to add as I don't use mRendu + SonicOrbiter. Please keep us updated.


----------



## ecwl

evolvist said:


> I hooked up my DAVE straight to my laptop, using JRiver, with the Cord ASIO driver and I'm still getting the same levels. I mean -40 db is very, very low if 0db is considered unity gain. But, I guess we're not measuring dbs with the DAVE like that, are we? Evidently not if 0db on the DAVE is considered to be very loud.
> 
> So my 13-year old son who is not used to listening to loud music. I put on some metal. "Battery" from Metallica's _Master of Puppets_ album. He has the FUs on his head and I start off at -38db. He can hear the music obviously. Eventually he settles on -16db which sounds comfortable to him. For me the same track, where I can really feel it, is at -10db. That's a 6db difference. Of course I'm 43, so imagine my ears aren't what they used to be. Still, when he listened at -10db he felt no discomfort and said that it wasn't too loud. He was rocking out!
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm now much more suspicious that Evolvist just likes to listen to music louder than most people. I realized it's actually very hard to not get bit-perfect setup from Roon using SonicOrbiter and mRendu. The volume setting is probably also higher if the music collection only contains music with little dynamic compression because that would mean the average music volume for the tracks are probably lower to begin with. Hence, I'm thinking there's probably nothing wrong in the digital/computer setup of the system.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ecwl said:


> I'm now much more suspicious that Evolvist just likes to listen to music louder than most people. I realized it's actually very hard to not get bit-perfect setup from Roon using SonicOrbiter and mRendu. The volume setting is probably also higher if the music collection only contains music with little dynamic compression because that would mean the average music volume for the tracks are probably lower to begin with. Hence, I'm thinking there's probably nothing wrong in the digital/computer setup of the system.




You know, you might be on to something with the lack of dynamically compromised recordings in my library. I'm not a big metal listener, but even that Metallica recording was from the original 1986 CD which clocks in at an overall DR12.

I think I listen to music loud enough to where I'm not passively listening, as serious listening sessions require enough volume to really feel the music. At the same time, though, if ever the volume gets uncomfortable (I think we all know our thresholds) then I simply turn it down. 

Not to be too off topic, as I still think we're with in the realm of talking about the DAVE - because I would like to hear @Rob Watts chime in - but in the FU thread I noted that with my HD800s any music I listened to with DAVE fell within a small margin of -3db to +3db for really low recordings. With the FUs, on the other hand, I find my recordings really ranging from -16db to 0db. Anything approaching the 0db range are really low recordings, like Tom Petty's first album and the 2013 Analogue Productions Doors remasters, which are also very, very low. Oddly enough, for most of my classical music, I've found will sit in around the -16db to -12db range. 

That still doesn't explain, however, why my wife and 13-year old find comfort in the same range as I do. It's not like they have the hobby and must get "the feels" from the music. My wife controls her own volume and I noticed that she was right in the same pocket as me. 

Plus, as I noted about the SPL meter (and I'm going to try some more with different ones) the arrow seems to point to getting an average of 80-85db out of the FUs. 

So, I still see a bit of a mystery, only maybe one that's getting a bit clearer. I'm still going to get a feel from the folks on the mRendu and Roon forums.


----------



## jlbrach

evolvist said:


> Okay, I did this. With the DAVE at 0db with one SPL meter I was reading in the 70 dbs and with another SPL meter in the 90dbs with the FUs. I think the 2nd SPL meter is a little more wonky because in a dead silent room it's reading in the 50db range. The first SPL meter which gave me 70 dbs at 0db on the DAVE, in a dead silent room it is reading 18-20dbs.
> 
> Yeah, I've read all of these schinitz. I've got a clear signal path with all purple in Roon.
> 
> ...


 
 I listen to only FLAC out of my AK120 into my Dave with my Utopia's and honestly I do not think I have ever listened to anything beyond -20 or so....with my LCD-4's I will from time to time go as far as -3 but that is in rare instances,mostly i vary from -15 to 8.I have a variety of music and some is highly compressed garbage masterings that I will listen to at -35-40 on the Utopia and I have some old albums like PJ Harvey's early albums that are mastered incredibly quietly and even with that or others such as Richard Thompsons Amnesia or a few old jazz albums I never get much beyond -20 or maybe -18........perhaps it is the recordings you are listening to?Are they primarily Hi Rez stuff because I have been told they need higher volumes....I am very curious as to what the issue is and i do not think it is your hearing.....FWIIW the Metallica albums are mastered incredibly loud.I used to own the 800S and it was not quite as efficient as the Utopia but certainly efficient...I would never have been listening to it through my Dave at -3 to +3 so i really do believe that this is source related although I am suspicious when we are speaking about Metallica's albums because they are brutally loud masterings and thus confuse the situation even more to me....I will say this for sure...if you are listening at these volumes with the Utopia you literally would be unable to listen at all to the LCD-4's which require about 20 louder on my Dave than do the Utopia's


----------



## ismewor

Hi,
 I'm not sure if this has been answered before , Will Dave going to update to DSD512?


----------



## EVOLVIST

Great post, Jon. It gives me more food for thought. 

Those original masterings for the first 4 Metallica albums are not loud and compressed at all, though. Subsequent albums are, and more recent remasters, but not the originals. They are fantastic! 

About hirez files, yeah, I guess I've been listening to quite a few, but I have no idea the percentage. Actually that might be it! Sure I've been listening to sporadic redbook, but mainly when I demo gear, in this case the FUs, it's been hirez Tom Petty, the Doors, John Coltrane, Neil Young, David Bowie in DSD and old Aerosmith in DSD. Some DSD Pink Floyd, too. Hmmmm. 

Still, if I'm at 0db with my DAVE, and I'm only pulling 80-85db on the SPL meter (I'm rounding up), then doesn't that show I'm at a comfortable volume, because I rarely even go up that high? I mean for comfortable listening then might be at -14db to -10db on the DAVE which would equate to about 60db SPL, yeah? 

That still doesn't explain why my numbers are so different from you guys, though.


----------



## ismewor

I usually do this below.

LCD 3 -14
LCD 4 -11
HD800 -25
Final Audio IV -27
Final Audio X -33


----------



## x RELIC x

ismewor said:


> Hi,
> I'm not sure if this has been answered before , Will Dave going to update to DSD512?




It's already capable of DSD512.

Look under the features tab of the DAVE webpage:

http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/product/dave/


----------



## miketlse

evolvist said:


> Great post, Jon. It gives me more food for thought.
> 
> Those original masterings for the first 4 Metallica albums are not loud and compressed at all, though. Subsequent albums are, and more recent remasters, but not the originals. They are fantastic!
> 
> ...





> Not yet - but you are gradually evolving a rational and traceable methodology of tests, that hopefully will lead you to the explanation.


----------



## miketlse

ismewor said:


> Hi,
> I'm not sure if this has been answered before , Will Dave going to update to DSD512?


 
 The Chord family of DACs can work such magic with standard redbook files, that i cannot understand some audiophiles obsession with chasing ever higher DSD file handling.


----------



## ismewor

Sure, that's all personal preference, and that is why there are more coffee shop than it need to be.


----------



## jlbrach

miketlse said:


> The Chord family of DACs can work such magic with standard redbook files, that i cannot understand some audiophiles obsession with chasing ever higher DSD file handling.


 
 I tend to agree,a well mastered redbook CD sounds wonderful on the Dave...a poorly mastered Hi Rez recording sounds lousy no matter the high resolution....for me it is all about the mastering...obviously a well mastered hi rez recording should be the summit....for the record I do own tons of SACD's that i play on my standard stereo loudspeaker configuration so I am not anti hi rez....i just think a lousy recording is a lousy recording no matter the resolution....I have several Hi rez recording that sound worse than the redbook version of the same album due to better mastering on the redbook


----------



## jlbrach

evolvist said:


> Great post, Jon. It gives me more food for thought.
> 
> Those original masterings for the first 4 Metallica albums are not loud and compressed at all, though. Subsequent albums are, and more recent remasters, but not the originals. They are fantastic!
> 
> ...


 
 Something is amiss for sure...there is no way your listening levels can be that different than everybody elses especially when you tell us your son and ex-wife to be also hear it pretty much the same way


----------



## Rob Watts

evolvist said:


> ecwl said:
> 
> 
> > I'm now much more suspicious that Evolvist just likes to listen to music louder than most people. I realized it's actually very hard to not get bit-perfect setup from Roon using SonicOrbiter and mRendu. The volume setting is probably also higher if the music collection only contains music with little dynamic compression because that would mean the average music volume for the tracks are probably lower to begin with. Hence, I'm thinking there's probably nothing wrong in the digital/computer setup of the system.
> ...


 
 If the volume is at +4dB or below, don't worry is my advice.
  
 If you want to find out the peak levels on a particular recording, try using Audacity. Then you will know for sure if a particular recording is too quiet.
  
 Rob


----------



## analogmusic

Would like to know what all Dave owners are using as a source into Dave?
  
 Mostly laptops or other sources like mobile phones, Mac, microrendu, other streamers?
  
 Personally I am using Windows 7 -- > J river (with Chord Asio Driver) --> USB (with the cable that came with Dave) -- Dave


----------



## rkt31

analogmusic said:


> Would like to know what all Dave owners are using as a source into Dave?
> 
> Mostly laptops or other sources like mobile phones, Mac, microrendu, other streamers?
> 
> Personally I am using Windows 7 -- > J river (with Chord Asio Driver) --> USB (with the cable that came with Dave) -- Dave


 
 i don't have dave right now but use hugo and mojo with laptop. i use foobar with asio driver and in the advance setting i have set play from the memory . foobar somehow uses lot less processing power in bit perfect mode via chord asio driver . don't know why j river uses more memory. with redbook there is no problem but with dsd256 j river struggles to stream in dop while foobar does not. i use j river only for movies because i could find only j river which allows the selection of asio for audio part and does automatic adjustments for video. i tried hq player in bit perfect mode ( without any upsampling ) still foobar could beat j river and hq player in bit perfect mode. recently i have ordered oyaide neo d+A class 1m usb ( S class is not needed for short lengths) after reading some very good reviews, for if at all i am able to afford dave in future.


----------



## lovethatsound

analogmusic said:


> Would like to know what all Dave owners are using as a source into Dave?
> 
> Mostly laptops or other sources like mobile phones, Mac, microrendu, other streamers?
> 
> Personally I am using Windows 7 -- > J river (with Chord Asio Driver) --> USB (with the cable that came with Dave) -- Dave


Merry Christmas 
I mainly use the chord blu cd transport,to be honest with you,i still think their better than using a laptop.


----------



## AndrewOld

analogmusic said:


> Would like to know what all Dave owners are using as a source into Dave?
> 
> Mostly laptops or other sources like mobile phones, Mac, microrendu, other streamers?
> 
> Personally I am using Windows 7 -- > J river (with Chord Asio Driver) --> USB (with the cable that came with Dave) -- Dave




I'm using a little fanless Acer laptop (into which I've just put an SSD so it is absolutely silent), running the superb JRiver under Windows 10. Connected via USB using a Supra screened cable which I just happens to have. And an AQ jitterbug. Often use JRemote on my iPad to control it. For the last year I've also been streaming from Qobuz a lot - this really is excellent value and quality. I also happen to have an old Logitech Touch which is connected via optical - is is useful for radio, and I can also use dQobuz on it remotely controlled via iPeng on my iPad.


----------



## TheAttorney

Strangely enough, I've been seriously re-thinking sources, and their relative importance, for my DAVE.
  
 With a start point of my elderly Nagra CDC (very pricey integrated CD Player/pre-amp) -> Optical cable to DAVE.
 If this is the reference point, then in approximate chronological order of change over the year...
  

Replaced CD player with Windows 10 laptop, Redbook FLAC on internal SSD, running off internal battery, app player=JRMC, all DSP off  -> TQ Black Diamond USB cable -> DAVE
This sounded different, but broadly equal to reference, the latter still overall slightly preferable in an analoguey kinda way

  Same laptop but with JRMC replaced by HQ Player, all DSP off apart from Dither
Now clearly better than reference, albeit still in same ballpark SQ. This was the point when I knew my trusty old CDC's days were numbered

Insert microRendu with low cost iFi p/s, an old Linksys WiFi router with stock p/s, Monoprice Cat 6 ethernet, laptop connected wirelessly
A step change improvement in SQ. Like upgrading a main component. This was the point of no return.

Replace iFi p/s with MCRU linear p/s, all stock bar upgraded DC power cable to a (rather thin) 1ft silver cable. (MCRU is a UK two-box p/s Price around £240 + around £50 silver DC cable)
Worthwhile further improvement

Replace Monoprice ethernet cable with Supra CAT8
Worthwhile further improvement and staggering VFM at £35 [1]

Replace laptop wifi to router with my now spare Monoprice ethernet cable
A backwards step. Yes, I was surprised too. So the WiFi stays for now [1]. Maybe a better ethernet cable would have turned the tables?

Replace MCRU p/s with LPS-1 with stock DC power cable
Worthwhile further improvement. Possibly a step change, but can't quantify this because the next few steps came in quick succession, so blurred the significance of the original change 

Replace LPS-1's stock DC cable with a short 4 inch silver wire - cut from my now spare MCRU, I soldered the cut wire to a couple of Oyaide DC plugs
Worthwhile further improvement - despite my dodgy soldering skills

Replace the Router's stock p/s with my now spare MCRU
Something interesting happened here that I couldn't quite quantify. Was this a step "improvement" or a step "difference"? Led me to quickly try:

Raided my box of spares to dig out: an ancient Transparent near-entry-level power cord; AMR and HFT Supreme Fuses; HRS damping plate and footer. With a combined result of...
Router with fully loaded MCRU was a step improvement. Chose the HFT over AMR fuse, and both were directional (in an AC circuit! Yes, really). [1] [2] [3]

  
 The end result was: Laptop ->wifi -> router with fully loaded MCRU p/s -> Supra ethernet cable -> mR with LPS-1 p/s with silver DC cable -> TQ USB cable -> DAVE
  
 Despite the insertion of several boxes/cables into the digital signal chain, this was so far ahead of my reference point, I wouldn't have believed it had anyone told me a year ago. As always, YMMV and these changes are probably objectively very small. None of them, apart from [2], directly changed the tonal signature of my system, although many of them indirectly influenced tonal perception by removing some hash and grain, and increasing focus. The conclusion for me is that just about everything upstream of DAVE can matter. This goes against some earlier posts where theoretically DAVE+mR should be largely immunne to upstream quality. But my usual quip applies here: I have no option but to trust my own ears.... becuase they're the only ones I've got.
  
 Notes:
  
 [1] These are all candidates for my "I didn't see that one coming" award for 2016. The winner though was the last change: fully loading the MCRU p/s for my router, as it simply gave me my most musically satisfying "I didn't see that one coming" moment of the year.
 [2] The HRS damping plate on the MCRU (as well as on DAVE itself] slightly increased the bass, and seemed to add "weight" to the whole sound stage, both of which were very welcome for my Stax 009's. It seemed to affect other parts of the frequency response as well, but I couldn't immediately get a handle on what that was exactly. The HRS footer helped the MCRU, but didn't do anything to DAVE, so obviously YMMV for the hundredth time.
 [3] Would I have heard such a difference in the last change if this instead been the first change to try? Do some of the later changes negate the values of the earlier ones? Dunno, as I don't have the patience to try all combinations. But I'm sure that issues in one part of the chain can mask the effect of other parts.
  
 Next thing to try:
 The SOtM something 200 rival to mR, which some early reports reckon is better than mR and costs less. 
 And maybe the SOtM ehernet cable, as romaz liked above all others
 And Roon once I get a better broadband connection to my house.
 Not in a great rush for these, just going to enjoy what I currently have and rediscover my music collection all over again..


----------



## Mython

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






theattorney said:


> Strangely enough, I've been seriously re-thinking sources, and their relative importance, for my DAVE.
> 
> With a start point of my elderly Nagra CDC (very pricey integrated CD Player/pre-amp) -> Optical cable to DAVE.
> If this is the reference point, then in approximate order of change over the year...
> ...


 
  


  
 Without wishing to stray from DAVE, I will just mention that the following might be of interest to you (I have no personal opinion about it, I'm just relaying it to you):
  
www.head-fi.org/t/829639/usb-strikes-back-watch-out-aoip-usb-ethernet-chain-beats-all-at-least-for-me


----------



## EVOLVIST

mython said:


> Without wishing to stray from DAVE, I will just mention that the following might be of interest to you (I have no personal opinion about it, I'm just relaying it to you):
> 
> www.head-fi.org/t/829639/usb-strikes-back-watch-out-aoip-usb-ethernet-chain-beats-all-at-least-for-me




That really hurt my brain. Haha!


----------



## Beolab

theattorney said:


> Strangely enough, I've been seriously re-thinking sources, and their relative importance, for my DAVE.
> 
> With a start point of my elderly Nagra CDC (very pricey integrated CD Player/pre-amp) -> Optical cable to DAVE.
> If this is the reference point, then in approximate chronological order of change over the year...
> ...


 

 Interesting:
  
 So if you toggle back and forth between Nagra CD on Tos input and USB you got a significant overall SQ refinement off about 5% or ?,
 It is also down to that the USB input are the supreme input with the best SQ on DAVE, so it is one factor that does it a slight harder to compare the sources.


----------



## TheAttorney

The Nagra CD does not have any USB socket unfortunately - they made a design decsion 6+ years ago that USB was not the way to go for them.. Toslink is the best of the digital outputs available (from a comparison last year with Yggy DAC).


----------



## bigfatpaulie

theattorney said:


> The Nagra CD does not have any USB socket unfortunately - they made a design decsion 6+ years ago that USB was not the way to go for them.. Toslink is the best of the digital outputs available (from a comparison last year with Yggy DAC).


 
  
 Am I reading this wrong or...
  
 It seems you prefer the LPS-1 to the Sonor Signature Series Power Supply - is that correct?


----------



## TheAttorney

I don't think I mentioned the Sonor Signature p/s anywhere in my review. I haven't tried that.
 The only power supplies I tried were iFi 9v, MCRU and LPS-1.
 The LPS-1 itself came with the Meanwell feeder power supply.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

theattorney said:


> I don't think I mentioned the Sonor Signature p/s anywhere in my review. I haven't tried that.
> The only power supplies I tried were iFi 9v, MCRU and LPS-1.
> The LPS-1 itself came with the Meanwell feeder power supply.


 
  
 I'm sorry - I was thinking the "MCRU linear p/s" was the Sonor one.  What is it then?  Google seems to think it is this.


----------



## Shini44

i am thinking about trying these on DAVE, Audioengine A2+
  

  
  
 you think they gonna sound nice? wanted to try a cheap available option before i go with Focal Solo6 BE + Sub6 setup


----------



## TheAttorney

bigfatpaulie said:


> I'm sorry - I was thinking the "MCRU linear p/s" was the Sonor one.  What is it then?  Google seems to think it is this.


 
 Yes that's part of a very wide range of the same basic two-box design. They do a 7v one specifically for the mR, but if you have a voltmeter you can infinitely adjust the voltage with an internal trim pot (this is not advertised as a feature). My one ranged from 3.5v to 11v. My router is rated at 12v, but I took a chance that the voltage would probably be dropped inside the router - and it doesn't seem to mind beeing driven by 11v.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

theattorney said:


> Yes that's part of a very wide range of the same basic two-box design. They do a 7v one specifically for the mR, but if you have a voltmeter you can infinitely adjust the voltage with an internal trim pot (this is not advertised as a feature). My one ranged from 3.5v to 11v. My router is rated at 12v, but I took a chance that the voltage would probably be dropped inside the router - and it doesn't seem to mind beeing driven by 11v.


 
  
 That makes sense: thank you. 
  
 Any plans to try the Sonor LPSU?


----------



## 7ryder

shini44 said:


> i am thinking about trying these on DAVE, Audioengine A2+
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I bought a pair of these for my wife's desktop set up...running them directly from her laptop's audio out...so I can't comment on how they would sound with DAVE. I will say, though, that they sound pretty rolled off on the top end. the good news is if you get them from directly from Audioengine, you get 30 days to return them if you don't like them. As for Focal, I have CMS 50s for my desktop rig and I like them a lot...I don't have a sub and don't feel that I'm missing anything without it.


----------



## Shini44

7ryder said:


> I bought a pair of these for my wife's desktop set up...running them directly from her laptop's audio out...so I can't comment on how they would sound with DAVE. I will say, though, that they sound pretty rolled off on the top end. the good news is if you get them from directly from Audioengine, you get 30 days to return them if you don't like them. As for Focal, I have CMS 50s for my desktop rig and I like them a lot...I don't have a sub and don't feel that I'm missing anything without it.


 
 hmm CM50 seems like a better pair to start with  Thanks for the info ^^ i will check around to get them for a good deal.


----------



## jlbrach

analogmusic said:


> Would like to know what all Dave owners are using as a source into Dave?
> 
> Mostly laptops or other sources like mobile phones, Mac, microrendu, other streamers?
> 
> Personally I am using Windows 7 -- > J river (with Chord Asio Driver) --> USB (with the cable that came with Dave) -- Dave


 
 I am using my AK120 as the source


----------



## SunWarrior

analogmusic said:


> Would like to know what all Dave owners are using as a source into Dave?
> 
> Mostly laptops or other sources like mobile phones, Mac, microrendu, other streamers?
> 
> Personally I am using Windows 7 -- > J river (with Chord Asio Driver) --> USB (with the cable that came with Dave) -- Dave


 
  
 I'm using an Aurender N10, and super-happy with the combo of the DAVE and that unit.
  
 The advantage of the Aurender is that it has several outputs that match up with the DAVE -- USB, BNC, Toslink & AES/EBU.
  
 And at this point, I have all four hooked up...and still not certain which one I prefer the most. Kinda sometimes depends on the music.
  
 But all four Aurender-outputs/DAVE-inputs please me.
  
 Dave, who is also using the Aurender's RCA coax output to a DAVE BNC input using an adapter


----------



## The Krell

Sounds good with the newer Orpheus..it's up there with some of the best high end dacs and stereo amps with a pair of Wilson Audio Sabrinas..but still hasn't got the rounded bass of the high end gear!


----------



## Beolab

theattorney said:


> The Nagra CD does not have any USB socket unfortunately - they made a design decsion 6+ years ago that USB was not the way to go for them.. Toslink is the best of the digital outputs available (from a comparison last year with Yggy DAC).




I think you missunderstod my post, we try one more time 

If you toggle between Nagra connected with Toslink VS your windows PC connected with USB to you DAVE at the same time , what do you feel today after the long upgrade process has been refined / sound better? 

Then it is fun to read all post about every single thing we/they do with their systems, the result is always to the better, that is not even close to be true, but i am happy for everyones stong belives in their own happy world. 

Try to mesaure the output distortion/jitter/RF of DAVE every time you do an upgrade or mesaure the RF noise, then we got a nice direction if the home made soultiin was an SQ upgrade or not. 

I think the biggest diffrence is the inputs on DAVE sounds diffrently, where the USB are more supreme, so i think it is not only your home made power solutions / micro rendu / hq player / cat 6 cable / surge a d mire that give you this sound, it is mostly because of the USB input port sounds diffrent to Toslink or Coax and AES on DAVE.


----------



## TheAttorney

beolab said:


> I think you missunderstod my post, we try one more time
> 
> If you toggle between Nagra connected with Toslink VS your windows PC connected with USB to you DAVE at the same time , what do you feel today after the long upgrade process has been refined / sound better?





> *Attorney: My PC doesn't have Toslink. But I did say that JRMC direct USB to DAVE was broadly equivalent in SQ (with different sound signatures) to Nagra CDC optical direct to DAVE. Compared to either of those start points, I'd say my end result combination was greater than a couple of major component upgrades. Comfotably greater, say, than I noticed at the time when moving from Yggy DAC to DAVE. Would Yggy have scaled quite as well as DAVE to have shown up each of these incremental improvements? I can't really say, as I no longer have the Yggy.*
> 
> Then it is fun to read all post about every single thing we/they do with their systems, the result is always to the better, that is not even close to be true, but i am happy for everyones stong belives in their own happy world.





> *Attorney: I don't accept this at all. I only post the results that I think will be useful or interesting. I don't bore readers with all the times I hear no difference. Just imagine if every other post on every forum went like this: "Hey guys, amazing news!!! I just compared A to B and guess what? I heard no difference whatsoever. I was floored!!!" I didn't, for example, post that I heard no difference between my Monoprice and a no-name ethernet cable. Or that I had trouble deciding if I preferred the "dynamic" side or the "soft" side of which fuse direction to choose. Becuase too much information may dilute the key points I wanted to highlight. But I did say that the HRS footer made a difference to my MCRU, but no obvious difference to my DAVE, to show how system dependent that kind of tweak can be.*
> 
> Try to mesaure the output distortion/jitter/RF of DAVE every time you do an upgrade or mesaure the RF noise, then we got a nice direction if the home made soultiin was an SQ upgrade or not.





> *Attorney: No chance. I don't have the time, inclination, equipment or skills to do that. This is a fun hobby, not a scientific experiment, for me. We each have to decide if another person's impressions are interesting enough for us to try something new*.
> 
> I think the biggest diffrence is the inputs on DAVE sounds diffrently, where the USB are more supreme, so i think it is not only your home made power solutions / micro rendu / hq player / cat 6 cable / surge a d mire that give you this sound, it is mostly because of the USB input port sounds diffrent to Toslink or Coax and AES on DAVE.





> *Attorney: That was absolutely not the point of my post. What I have demonstrated to myself is that USB (and computer hifi in general) is highly subject to improvements. This is a good thing if you enjoy trying out improvements. And a bad thing if you want a simple hifi journey. Personally, I hate the accumulation of little boxes and cables in my hifi system, but I have to go with it when the benefits are so obvious. If I can find a simpler but better alternative, I'll shout about it very loudly. *


----------



## TheAttorney

bigfatpaulie said:


> Any plans to try the Sonor LPSU?


 
 No, I'm done with that aspect of my hifi chain for now. Maybe will try the SOtM products as I mentioned if I can get them on trial.
 But otherwise I want to keep my system constant whilst waiting for my HEK V2 headphones to arrive in the next month or so (Hifiman have apperently none in stock to send to my dealer immediately).


----------



## evilaci

jelt2359 said:


> I ran into John in Singapore at an audio show and after I mentioned I was a DAVE owner his ears perked up and with a sparkle in his eye he told me that there's going to be something interesting coming at CES. I recently confirmed with him via PM also that this is going to be ready for sale immediately after the product announcement in the first week of January. So this is clearly not going to be the Davina.
> 
> Time to save up, folks! In two weeks' time, you may want to buy yourself a _post-_Christmas present.


 

 Do you think the Davina will be in the price range like the Dave?
 Thanks


----------



## Rob Watts

Davina is a performance driven project, not something that is determined by price. So once the bill of materials costs are added up, then Chord will set the retail price. The vague intent is Dave retail I guess, but I am more concerned about performance than anything else.
  
 Incidentally, I am currently finishing off the first PCB layout for Davina....
  
 Rob


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Is this just a stereo I/o product Rob merely to showcase the technology, or is it a multi input device meant for the whole recording, mixing and mastering process?


----------



## Rob Watts

Bit of both - it has two basic modes - recording, so analogue in, digital out. Or post processing, so digital in, digital out but with different sample rates and bit depths. It can decimate or up-sample, or sample rate convert. I will be talking more about it after CES.
  
 The primary intention is to make a 768 kHz 24 bit recording. Then later use Davina to post process this file into any format.
  
 Rob


----------



## rkt31

great, I was curious about that too. recording in 24 bit 768khz and then using other solutions to get lower sample and bit depth does not make sense. digital in digital out to get different sample rates is what was needed in Davina.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Interesting. I look forward to hearing more about it Rob


----------



## rkt31

I am not expert so a question from rob. can Davina record directly from mic will it need an external preamp ( or internal preamp in Davina ) ?


----------



## a1uc

Im really liking this setup , purchased Roon its well worth the cost
the cost


----------



## Nik

My little discovery ... I ask to the expert if they confirms my thesis about correct polarity setting:

Positive polarity (+ correct) or negative polarity (- incorrect). 

If the number of tracks on a CD is equal, the first track will be in phase, (+ polarity), the second inverted (- polarity) and so on all alternating: + - + - ... 

If the number of tracks on a CD is odd, the first track will be out of phase, (- polarity), the second inverted (+ polarity) and so on all alternating: - + - +... 

My conclusion is that this depends on the printing of the CD and its probably the criterion for which the laser of the CD player reads the information about the structure of the CD (number of the tracks...).


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

rkt31 said:


> I am not expert so a question from rob. can Davina record directly from mic will it need an external preamp ( or internal preamp in Davina ) ?




Hope you don't mind me jumping in here. Obviously a dynamic mic (like Sure SM58) doesn't need phantom power but with a condenser mic, for instance 'Neumann' it is necessary. You probably knew that but producers/engineers are pretty particular as to what mic pre's they prefer and so unless Chord are going to license something like Focusrite grade A pre's, adding your own pre's and targeting top end studios would probably result in a pretty superfluous add-on imo.


----------



## miketlse

I think that Rob detailed his preferred microphones, especially from the viewpoint of capturing the directionality of sound sources, earlier in the thread.


----------



## rkt31

@DaveRedRef-III, thanks a lot for clarifying.


----------



## Sonic77

Can't wait to hear a sample from the Davina,.....hint....hint.....


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Bit of both - it has two basic modes - recording, so analogue in, digital out. Or post processing, so digital in, digital out but with different sample rates and bit depths. It can decimate or up-sample, or sample rate convert. I will be talking more about it after CES.
> 
> The primary intention is to make a 768 kHz 24 bit recording. Then later use Davina to post process this file into any format.
> 
> Rob




Interesting Rob! 

So it could be a super upsampler for the DAVE with digital in - digital out is what you are saying or?  

Better SQ with DAVINA connected to DAVE


----------



## Shini44

what is Davina??? :O i hope it will be something to be used with Chord DAVE though, extra power hopefully or extra Bass :/ 
  
  


beolab said:


> Interesting Rob!
> 
> So it could be a super upsampler for the DAVE with digital in - digital out is what you are saying or?
> 
> ...


 
 +1
 AMEN!!


----------



## Jawed

beolab said:


> rob watts said:
> 
> 
> > Bit of both - it has two basic modes - recording, so analogue in, digital out. Or post processing, so digital in, digital out but with different sample rates and bit depths. It can decimate or up-sample, or sample rate convert. I will be talking more about it after CES.
> ...



Seems unlikely: DAVE uses 164,000 tap upsampling to get to 705.6/768 KHz. At best, DAVINA would sound the same, since DAVE can accept 705.6/768 KHz. DAVINA would need to have far more taps in upsampling to better DAVE. Apparently there's no FPGA to do that, with the correct quantity of DSP cores and programmable cells. 

So, erm, DAVINA would need to be a multi-FPGA design or be programmed quite differently, to exceed DAVE's primary WTA upsampler.



Now playing: The Philip Glass Ensemble - "Le Domain de la Bete"


----------



## miketlse

shini44 said:


> what is Davina??? :O i hope it will be something to be used with Chord DAVE though, extra power hopefully or extra Bass :/
> 
> 
> +1
> AMEN!!


 
  
 The Davina project has been pushing the boundaries of sampling knowledge for many months, and Rob has explained the current status of research, many times. This status is a moving target, so many interesting ideas/opportunities have been explained (searching this thread with the keyword Davina, identifies 160 posts but maybe only a few of them contain the most interesting details). You could find some of them interesting, especially the oft-mentioned hope that recording studios will use Davina, to create music files that will really test the Mojo (and DAVE 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## EVOLVIST

nik said:


> My little discovery ... I ask to the expert if they confirms my thesis about correct polarity setting:
> 
> Positive polarity (+ correct) or negative polarity (- incorrect).
> 
> ...


 
  
 Say what? Do you have anything of this is an article or something? I'm not saying that your wrong, it's only that I've never heard of such of thing.
  
 And the reason that I'm skeptical, without know the technicalities of your assertion, is that one of the biggest examples of -polarity is XTC's Skylarking album, which for years was only available in negative polarity - the whole album! not just even or odd tracks, because it was recorded that way by Todd Rundgren. It finally got a corrected polarity re-release in 2001, but the dynamics were pretty squashed. It was only until this year did Steven Wilson re-mix the album, while also correcting the polarity on the original mix in the form of a flat transfer.
  
 This is why your post rings a little false to me - again, not saying that it is - but also, with the polarity function on the DAVE, that means one could not actually get a correct polarity listen of any album, ever, by choosing your own polarity, because polarity alternates between tracks.
  
 I would simply like to delve deeper into your post.
  
 That said, to my ears, and I know it does not affect the actual SQ, but like the WhatHiFi review, I like negative polarity more than positive, as it seems to make everything fit into a certain pocket. But, I've been listening to positive polarity on most of everything recently, and it sounds damn good, too! So, what do I know? Heh.


----------



## Nik

It is mine experience... No any article found... 
If you have a very good speakers setup you can here the difference, track by track... As I said, for me, it's not a matter of the recording but the printer info of the CD support... all my CD, all the tracks, sound better if the polarity is correct, and all these track are + - + - or - + - + depending by the total number of the tracks. Never found two track near each other with the same polarity... And always the last track is - (negative).


----------



## EVOLVIST

nik said:


> It is mine experience... No any article found...
> If you have a very good speakers setup you can here the difference, track by track... As I said, for me, it's not a matter of the recording but the printer info of the CD support... all my CD, all the tracks, sound better if the polarity is correct, and all these track are + - + - or - + - + depending by the total number of the tracks. Never found two track near each other with the same polarity... And always the last track is - (negative).




Man, from my understanding recordings should just not be this way. Either it was recorded one way or the other. Unless recordings were made between multiple studios, and one or more tracks were not recorded with positive polarity. It would sound to me like it would be an error in CD burning (printing? I take it you are referring to burning audio to a CD-R).


----------



## Nik

Nope... 
All original CD with a perfect Vitus 025 mk2 player... 
But if you do not try, you can't believe it...


----------



## Beolab

@Rob Watts 

Interesting to hear your version and opinion to this statement from the Ifi Audio team about digital filters and tap lengths, for less reverb ? 

Org post: 

Originally Posted by Deftone View Post

Switching between mojo and idsd I notice idsd has like a reverb effect, I wonder what it is. No enhancements turned on like bass boost or 3d.

We would not presume to know what you are hearing exactly, but here are some technical basics...

No iFi product includes anything like an intentional reverb effect. The only thing that acts in a matter parallel to a reverb are the digital filters, which are standard on almost all DAC's and which in most iFi products are selectable. The iDSD micro also includes the bit-perfect mode which shuts down digital filters.


TL;DR 

Digital filters trade off flat frequency response to the nyquist frequency of the recording for transient distortion. The "longer" a filter (the more so-called taps it has) is the greater the impulse/transient distortion. In the iDSD micro the standard filter is the "longest" whereas the bit-perfect mode is the "shortest".

Audibility of different digital filters is a very steamy topic, some people are very sensitive to these and others are not. For those in the former group, we've included the option to select a filter that suits their personal taste and preference.


The long version

The "standard" digital filter is a sharp roll-off FIR type. This one is made by creating a delay chain with "taps" at each 1 sample delay and then applying different "gain" to the signal at each tap. The result of each tap is summed together to create a new signal that has "unwanted" ultrasonic content removed. More on FIR digital filters may be read here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_impulse_response

The upshot is that a digital filter (be it FIR or IIR) actually introduces a form of reverb. The more taps a digital filter has, the longer the reverb. The "standard" filter in the iDSD micro has around 256 taps (which is industry standard) and it's complete "reverb window" covers a time window of around 0.7 milliseconds at 44.1kHz source material. 

Human hearing acuity allows the detection of transient acoustic events of 0.01 milliseconds (10 uS) in length while the detection of a tone burst will require around 2 milliseconds at least. 

This means that the standard digital filter is likely to be at the edge of audibility for transient events (e.g. a snare drum rim shot) but should be inaudible on tone bursts (e.g. a piano note). More on the temporal resolution of the human hearing is to be found here:

http://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/27662/what-is-the-human-ears-temporal-resolution

Some people advocate digital filters with very large numbers of taps. For arguments sake, if we'd have used 16384 taps at 44.1kHz, the "reverb window" would cover 46.5 milliseconds, which one would expect to have a significantly audible effect on both transients and tone bursts.

Using the "minimum" filter (actually a Bezier type) with only around 64 taps, it's complete "reverb window" covers a time window of around 0.17 milliseconds at 44.1kHz source material. This may still be audible on transients, but should be reliably inaudible on tone bursts.

Finally the bit-perfect filter has just 1 tap, which translates to no delay chain and no "reverb". But the time domain resolution of 44.1kHz PCM recordings limit the impulse response to 0.0227 milliseconds. Said number is still not in a class that could be considered as reliably inaudible, which is one of the reasons why recordings with a sample rate higher than 44.1kHz are desirable.

What the filter switch on the iDSD micro (and on other iFi products) offers to the customer is the ability to select her/his personal preference of the trade-offs involved.

#7239 of 7241
an hour ago
iFi audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deftone View Post


I understand what your saying but this isn't subtle reverb like I hear on mojo and other quality DACs, this is very pronounced and causes even sound effects in Windows on notifications for example to echo when it's not supposed to or on "fake" electronic samples of music that doesn't have it naturally.

We advise to check your Windows audio device settings and make sure that "disable all enhancements" checkbox is selected. Normally this OS should not enable any of these by itself after installing a new sound device, but it can be funny at times.

Also please check any enhancement/effect settings in your playback software, in case these got accidentally turned on.


----------



## theveterans

beolab said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> Interesting to hear your version and opinion to this statement from the Ifi Audio team about digital filters and tap lengths, for less reverb ?
> 
> ...


 
  
 The taps length and # of taps are dependent on the digital filter implementation. Sounds like iFi is generalizing that the digital filter taps and tap lengths are a function of "reverb". I bet Rob's WTA filter is completely different from iFi's and more taps and tap lengths are desirable to reconstruct the analog signal WITHOUT adding fake reverb, fake details etc. IMO, the strongest points in Rob's DACs are incredible timing that does not miss a beat without adding fake details, reverb, etc. while other delta sigma DACs with their inferior digital filter implementation just adds fake details and reverb. NOS R2R DACs OTOH do not even use a digital filter thus the timing and reconstruction of analog signal must be ultra precise in order to not cause distortion/fake details/reverb etc.
  
 All of the statements above are of course my opinion on the subject.


----------



## theveterans

Interesing that on the iFi iDSD thread, someone just confirmed my statement regarding iFi's digital filter producing lots of reverb while Rob's WTA filter OTOH are have amazing timing and a more realistic timbre:
  


> gravenox said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have micro but I have nano and mojo and experienced same thing, I noticed this straight away after upgrading to mojo, my explanation is that nano has very wet/lean sound and mojo has dry/fast, maybe too dry sound and too fast sound (the sounds stops very quickly, quicker than your mind can think of). You can think as micro having longer decays and mojo having none (which is true in my perception). The decays are filled with DETAILS.
> ...


 
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/728236/ifi-idsd-micro-dsd512-pcm768-dac-and-headphone-amp-impressions-reviews-and-comments/7230#post_13126693


----------



## rkt31

I remember Rob's statement where in he said impulse response measurement is an illegal signal which does not exist in reality in music. more taps means longer the post and pre echo shown by impulse response ( chord uses symmetrical with equal post and pre echo) so longer post and pre echo in case of large tap lengths shown by impulse response does not matter because such type of response does not exist in reality but the extra tap length helps in constructing the the timing of transients more accurately. infinite tap length would perfectly recreate the analog wave but with infinite post and pre echo shown by impulse response.


----------



## rkt31

in case of ifi idsd, the talk is actually about post/pre echo not reverb. as per that logic chord dacs should have more reverb.


----------



## Rob Watts

daveredref-iii said:


> rkt31 said:
> 
> 
> > I am not expert so a question from rob. can Davina record directly from mic will it need an external preamp ( or internal preamp in Davina ) ?
> ...


 
 Its a configurable input - you can set it up as mic input with switchable 48v phantom, or set to line level input.
  
 I did not want an extra stage (mic pre-amp) degrading transparency, so hence the configurable nature of the input.
  
 Rob


----------



## Shini44

i have schiit Wyrd, i didn't use it on DAVE yet. so since i use PC as a source, will Wyrd help me with DAVE? or i should go with iFi iPower?? or both can't be used with DAVE?
  

  
  
 planing to get sonore microRendu + UltraCap LPS-1 combo at some point.
  
  

  
  
 yet if my Wyrd is usable or could help to clean the signal that would help. i didn't use it because i wanted to ask here first, just in case, or go with iFi iPower as a first step before i buy the "sonore microRendu + UltraCap LPS-1" combo.
  

  
  
 Thanks in advance.


----------



## Articnoise

Regarding the polarity phase control. There is no standard for “absolute polarity” and many records are therefore recorded and mastered with all or just some instrument out of phase. For music there all instrument are recorded in the same phase you can switching polarities and try to get better sound. 

  

 Sometimes a whole record is recorded and mastered with the same polarity phase and sometimes it’s a mixed on the same record. 

  

 Polarity of a wave in both the left and right channel should be equal for best SQ. Meaning that the sound that comes from the left and right are timely synced (no DC offset). If not you can switching polarities on one channel 180 degrees (out of phase) to get both channels to play the same polarity phase. It is normally called inverted polarity, Chord call it something else.


----------



## rkt31

thanks Rob for clarifying. so Davina can be used for recording live mic feed as well as for converting old tapes via line level input. again my limited knowledge, in case if the line level input is very low or for live mic feed, how the gain will be applied inside Davina ? will it be fully in digital domain ?


----------



## miketlse

rkt31 said:


> thanks Rob for clarifying. so Davina can be used for recording live mic feed as well as for converting old tapes via line level input. again my limited knowledge, in case if the line level input is very low or for live mic feed, how the gain will be applied inside Davina ? will it be fully in digital domain ?


 
  
 We are all interested to hear about Davina, but Rob has said that he will discuss it more after CES.
  
 During the next few days, Rob probably needs some time for travel, then preparing for CES. At other trade shows, jet lag has sometimes meant that Rob has been wide awake in the middle of the night, and so has answered questions on Head-Fi.
  
 Rob does enjoy answering questions, but let us all be considerate how many questions, that we ask during the next few days.


----------



## ecwl

I just noticed something that is somewhat amusing. If you go to the Chord website and look at the Chord DAVE page, you can see a photo of a black DAVE. For aesthetic reasons, there's an Audioquest Nighthawk in the background that's not connected to the DAVE.
  
 But here's the kicker, look at the settings for the DAVE. Its USB is getting a 192kHz signal but the HF Fil is set to Off and it's playing in DSD Plus mode which means the PCM signal is only getting 88000 taps instead of 164000. Big no, no's... Haha...
  
 Now that everybody had a laugh, I just wanted to cause some audiophilia nervosa which was why I was at the DAVE page in the first place. I was trying to speculate what the new Blu would be spec'd at. Watts already (?accidentally) revealed that it'll WTA filter/upsample to 24-bit 704kHz with an 11th order noise shaper playing CDs and feeding that signal to DAVE (or whatever DAC would take the signal). The new Blu will probably have way more than the original 4096 taps, maybe 44000? 88000? taps for the above upsampling? But I think most people on this forum uses computer USB or microRendu to feed DAVE. What if Blu has a USB input and then the Blu just becomes an expensive WTA upsampler with a CD transport attached for those of us who don't play CDs anymore? Or maybe Chord has a USB upsampler in the pipeline to feed DAVE. Or maybe that's an additional function for DAVINA. After all, some other companies already sell external upsamplers. Let's hope not, even if it means my CDs won't sound as good as playing them directly off Blu. I don't think I want another box in my stereo setup.


----------



## miketlse

ecwl said:


> I just noticed something that is somewhat amusing. If you go to the Chord website and look at the Chord DAVE page, you can see a photo of a black DAVE. For aesthetic reasons, there's an Audioquest Nighthawk in the background that's not connected to the DAVE.
> 
> But here's the kicker, look at the settings for the DAVE. Its USB is getting a 192kHz signal but the HF Fil is set to Off and it's playing in DSD Plus mode which means the PCM signal is only getting 88000 taps instead of 164000. Big no, no's... Haha...
> 
> Now that everybody had a laugh, I just wanted to cause some audiophilia nervosa which was why I was at the DAVE page in the first place. I was trying to speculate what the new Blu would be spec'd at. Watts already (?accidentally) revealed that it'll WTA filter/upsample to 24-bit 704kHz with an 11th order noise shaper playing CDs and feeding that signal to DAVE (or whatever DAC would take the signal). The new Blu will probably have way more than the original 4096 taps, maybe 44000? 88000? taps for the above upsampling? But I think most people on this forum uses computer USB or microRendu to feed DAVE. What if Blu has a USB input and then the Blu just becomes an expensive WTA upsampler with a CD transport attached for those of us who don't play CDs anymore? Or maybe Chord has a USB upsampler in the pipeline to feed DAVE. Or maybe that's an additional function for DAVINA. After all, some other companies already sell external upsamplers. Let's hope not, even if it means my CDs won't sound as good as playing them directly off Blu. I don't think I want another box in my stereo setup.


 
  
 There is enough 'audiophilia nervosa' in the air at the moment. 
 Tomorrow is new years eve, so have a glass of your favourite tonic, chill out and listen to some music.


----------



## Kamil21

rob watts said:


> Its a configurable input - you can set it up as mic input with switchable 48v phantom, or set to line level input.
> 
> I did not want an extra stage (mic pre-amp) degrading transparency, so hence the configurable nature of the input.
> 
> Rob




This is absolutely awesome. Perfect for purist mic recordings. 

I presume then that this would also allow for internal M/S stereo mic conversion? It shouldn't be a difficult option to implement.


----------



## analogmusic

please let's just enjoy new year, happy new year to Rob Watts and everyone at Chord


----------



## musicday

analogmusic said:


> please let's just enjoy new year, happy new year to Rob Watts and everyone at Chord



Happy New Yearear to everyone at Chord Electronics!!!
Having the opportunity to visit the facilities and the assembly line for Hugo was amazing.Back then Dave was just a prototype.
Thank you for all the wonderful things you guys have created.


----------



## x RELIC x

Wow!

I just don't get posts like this. Clearly the poster hasn't heard the DAVE and it's not the first time they've spoken nonsense about Chord gear. In the same thread they mention the Mojo's D-S glare. Rubbish if you ask me.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/818323/schiit-jotunheim-review-preview-head-fi-tv/3195#post_13128336

______________________________________________


Anyway, Happy New Year to all the DAVE owners and a special Happy New Year to Rob and John! Looking forward to 2017!


----------



## theveterans

x relic x said:


> Wow!
> 
> I just don't get posts like this. Clearly the poster hasn't heard the DAVE and it's not the first time they've spoken nonsense about Chord gear. In the same thread they mention the Mojo's D-S glare. Rubbish if you ask me.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I only trust @Torq impressions of DAVE against Schiit DACs where I see no bias between the brands at all. Regarding Mojo, I don't hear glare except for some badly mastered tracks, but Mojo is ruthless in revealing a recording's shortcomings anyways.


----------



## Mojo ideas

ecwl said:


> I just noticed something that is somewhat amusing. If you go to the Chord website and look at the Chord DAVE page, you can see a photo of a black DAVE. For aesthetic reasons, there's an Audioquest Nighthawk in the background that's not connected to the DAVE.
> 
> But here's the kicker, look at the settings for the DAVE. Its USB is getting a 192kHz signal but the HF Fil is set to Off and it's playing in DSD Plus mode which means the PCM signal is only getting 88000 taps instead of 164000. Big no, no's... Haha...
> 
> Now that everybody had a laugh, I just wanted to cause some audiophilia nervosa which was why I was at the DAVE page in the first place. I was trying to speculate what the new Blu would be spec'd at. Watts already (?accidentally) revealed that it'll WTA filter/upsample to 24-bit 704kHz with an 11th order noise shaper playing CDs and feeding that signal to DAVE (or whatever DAC would take the signal). The new Blu will probably have way more than the original 4096 taps, maybe 44000? 88000? taps for the above upsampling? But I think most people on this forum uses computer USB or microRendu to feed DAVE. What if Blu has a USB input and then the Blu just becomes an expensive WTA upsampler with a CD transport attached for those of us who don't play CDs anymore? Or maybe Chord has a USB upsampler in the pipeline to feed DAVE. Or maybe that's an additional function for DAVINA. After all, some other companies already sell external upsamplers. Let's hope not, even if it means my CDs won't sound as good as playing them directly off Blu. I don't think I want another box in my stereo setup.


 I'm happy enough if the photographer has the unit up the right way Cheers every one


----------



## Christer

kamil21 said:


> This is absolutely awesome. Perfect for purist mic recordings.
> 
> I presume then that this would also allow for internal M/S stereo mic conversion? It shouldn't be a difficult option to implement.


 

 Hello and Happy New Year Kamil21,
 In theory DAVINA sounds very interesting indeed.
 But who  except some  wealthy home/hobby   recordists,records with purist two mic miking these days?
 I am not an expert as such. But I have been to  quite a few  classical music recording sessions as a photographer for major classical labels, and not even a single one of those were real purist mic recordings since many years.
 The only purist mic recordings except some binaural ones done today  I am aware of  are the less than a handful of recordings  that Tom Caulfield of native dsd.com,  does in DSD 256 side by side  with Jared Sacks´ DSD64 Grimm converter recordings made in Budapest with the BFO and Ivan Fischer conducting. 
 He uses only five mics for  his mch /surround recordings. But he does not record with only two mics for classic stereo speaker reproduction, nor does anyone else in the industry as far as I know.
 Morevover his recordings are not released yet.
 Correct me if I´m wrong. I wish I were. But really doubt it.
 No one would be happier than me if I could get the natural very realistic balance in plain stereo  of the late 50s blumlein EMI´s or Living Stereos or Decca tree takes of the glorious analogue age. Recordings that in some ways still beat  a lot of what is done by the majors today.
 And they do so in spite of inherent limitations of analogue tape but thanks to simple miking and balancing in the hall, not studio post production and 30 to 50 channels as is the norm today.
 I remember Rob saying something along the lines that classical music recordings are  not tampered with as pop/rock is .But unfortunately it is.And has been for many years.
 Also judging by the intended pricing of DAVINA I doubt  the cost conscious professionals will be interested  in a  two mics stereo only ADC for 10k when they can buy anmch capable Horus or Hapi or similar for less than half the price.
 They days when one could make good money from recording classical music are probably over.
 As a music lover who has got the live concert hall sound of an orchestra as heard in the hall from a good seat in the hall or alternately the conductor´s pult, I would love to hear my beloved acoustic music closer to  how it sounds  LIVE again.


----------



## Kamil21

christer said:


> Hello and Happy New Year Kamil21,
> In theory DAVINA sounds very interesting indeed.
> But who  except some  wealthy home/hobby   recordists,records with purist two mic miking these days?
> I am not an expert as such. But I have been to  quite a few  classical music recording sessions as a photographer for major classical labels, and not even a single one of those were real purist mic recordings since many years.
> ...




Happy New Year too, Christer!

Yes, sad but true... thankfully there are a few diehard labels that come close:
http://www.chesky.com/content/binaural-series


----------



## rkt31

waterlily acoustics, Mahler 5 conducted temirkanov imho is native dsd recording by a single stereo mic.


----------



## analogmusic

The point of davina is how to reduce a 768/24 bit recording to 44.1/16 and keep the musicality..... I think... but rob watts to answe this better


----------



## AlanYWM

shini44 said:


> i have schiit Wyrd, i didn't use it on DAVE yet. so since i use PC as a source, will Wyrd help me with DAVE? or i should go with iFi iPower?? or both can't be used with DAVE?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Since no one responded, I will give my 2 cents worth 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Given that you already have the Dave, I would put my resources to getting the microRendu + LPS-1. This combo is the best of the lot mentioned.


----------



## Shini44

alanywm said:


> Since no one responded, I will give my 2 cents worth
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 decided to wait, LPS-1 will get a new combo from the same company. no need to get microRendu. also i dislike the fact that i have to stream music, i want to use directly.


----------



## Christer

rkt31 said:


> waterlily acoustics, Mahler 5 conducted temirkanov imho is native dsd recording by a single stereo mic.


 

 Yes it is, but he got the strings sounding  too weak for Temirkanov so the  strings  have been "boosted" in post production.
 DSD 64 can sound very good raw ie  without any   editing used. But  rising DSD noise  for  each editing step, gradually seeping into the audible frequency range is a problem with too many multimic´d and post produced/edited DSD 64 recordings.
 But yes, that one and the companion  Scriabin SACD  are  two rare  exceptions from the standard way of recording classical these days which unfortunately is more less throw everything you´ve got at the orchestra and  do the balance in post production.
 And everything "you´ve got" often amounts to 30 mics or more.
 One label recently boasted that they had made the world´s first 48 channels DXD recording!
 I have not heard it but a person whose judgment I  normally trust has said it sounded pretty terrible and synthetic.
  
 And ironically  Water Lily´s purist stereo   was not much appreciated by  a  misguided HIFI crowd  used to multimic´d balances doctored  to sound impressive on their boombox systems. 
 Likewise although they do use multimiking and postprocess a lot , BIS has often been blamed for too much dynamic range in some of their recordings by the same crowd.
 I sometimes wonder how many HIFI enthusiasts actually visit live acoustic concerts and have those as reference.
 Far too few it seems especially when reading reviews of really expensive High End stuff like DAVE or recently in HI FI NEWS and other mags  again, Martin Logan´s most expensive electrostatic speakers which are reviewed playing mainly  the general crowd pleasing, pop/rock synthetic crap recordings  recorded in low res pcm. 
 I hope DAVINA will bring at least some simply mic´d  well recorded acoustic music to the table.


----------



## Christer

analogmusic said:


> The point of davina is how to reduce a 768/24 bit recording to 44.1/16 and keep the musicality..... I think... but rob watts to answe this better


 

 That objective is another thing I don´t get. Why record in true hi res and then reduce to 16/44.1????
 Even WIFI connection downloads are pretty fast these days and hardrives are getting bigger and cheaper on a regular basis.
 Rob himself said he had recently bought a 5 gigabyte  portable harddrive.
 I carry three 2 gigabyte  LACIE rugged portable drives on my travels this winter and the only drawback is that I sometimes don´t remember on which disk  a particular piece I want to hear in its native hi res master quality is.
 But that is a price I  will gladly pay rather than compromise and listen to the downsampled 16/44.1 with its lesser SQ.
 I have never heard  16/44.1 sound as EFFORTLESS and natural as a well recorded native HI RES recording of the large scale classical works I mostly listen to both as recordings and live.
 To my ears 16/44.1  always reveals its digital limitations one way or other.
 The more complex the music is  the more obvious  the lack of realism.


----------



## rkt31

@Christer, you are right about that waterlily recording. that was one of the first digital recordings done by them. before that they used a tape system with single stereo mic in blumlein arrangement. I have few of those earlier recordings like a meeting by the river, tabula rasa, saltanah . all these are more of fusion music so not for everyone. but these recordings are one of the finest example of most natural recordings done through a minimalistic arrangements by their engineer kavi alaxander . another two labels known for minimalistic arrangements are opus 3 records and reference recordings . I recently came across an acoustic music recording of Doug MacLeod by reference recordings. the recording is done through a single stereo mic and the performers sat around the mic in a circle for the recording. you could clearly feel the voice of Doug wavering in the soundstage as he moved his head , such is the natural feel. Imagine a single stereo mic feeding directly to Davina for such an acoustic recording !


----------



## Christer

rkt31 said:


> @Christer, you are right about that waterlily recording. that was one of the digital recordings done by them. before that they used a tape system with single stereo mic in blumlein arrangement. I have few of those earlier recordings like a meeting by the river, tabula rasa, saltanah . all these are more of fusion music so not for everyone. but these recordings are one of the finest example of most natural recordings done through a minimalistic arrangements by their engineer kavi alaxander . another two labels known for minimalistic arrangements are opus 3 records and reference recordings . I recently came across an acoustic music recording of Doug MacLeod by reference recordings. the recording is done through a single stereo mic and the performers sat around the mic in a circle for the recording. you could clearly feel the voice of Doug wavering in the soundstage as he moved his head , such is the natural feel.


 

 I  certainly agree regarding both Reference Recordings and Opus 3.
 I have many good  recordings by both labels and have  been at the actual sessions /concert recordings for some of the famous OPUS 3 releases.
 I am not normally very patriotic but little Sweden has had some very good recording engineers , guys with the actual live sound in a  real acoustic venue as  reference.
 And imho Prof Johnson of Refernce Recordings not only made rbcd a bit more listenable with his HDCD system before real digital  hi res became available, he also  captures an orchestra  very much as it sound in a good hall too.
 What I don´t get in the context of DAVINA is why anyone would want to use an absolete recording format when there are much better ones avaliable.


----------



## drbobbybones

Hi all,
  
 I know I'm the new guy and I'm probably gonna get shot down to oblivion with this question, but *can we put all the Davina questions into its own thread *and out of this one?  I just got my Chord DAVE, and I LOVE it, but looking for information in this thread is impossible with all of the off topic comments.  

 Thanks, and happy new year to you all!  I learned a lot by reading most of the comments on this thread.  I would love some how-to's about settings from anyone else here if they have any!


----------



## Deftone

x relic x said:


> Wow!
> 
> I just don't get posts like this. Clearly the poster hasn't heard the DAVE and it's not the first time they've spoken nonsense about Chord gear. In the same thread they mention the Mojo's D-S glare. Rubbish if you ask me.
> 
> ...




I have seen many people and on different forums complain about chord DACs sounding too digital or having glare, but to my ears chord DACs have the most realistic and effortless natural sound I have ever heard.


----------



## miketlse

drbobbybones said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I know I'm the new guy and I'm probably gonna get shot down to oblivion with this question, but *can we put all the Davina questions into its own thread *and out of this one?  I just got my Chord DAVE, and I LOVE it, but looking for information in this thread is impossible with all of the off topic comments.
> 
> Thanks, and happy new year to you all!  I learned a lot by reading most of the comments on this thread.  I would love some how-to's about settings from anyone else here if they have any!


 
  
 Questions about Davina have occurred in occasional spurts, and we are experiencing one at present. Rob has posted that he will be able to discuss Davina more after CES 2017, so maybe that will be an appropriate time for Chord (or maybe Rob, because he is not a Chord employee) to reassess if they want to create/sponsor a new thread. I suspect they would have several willing volunteers, from members interested in performing the moderator role.


----------



## Crgreen

The problem is, in my experience many purist recordings are musically vapid. For me, the quality of the music and the performance always comes first. I'd rather listen to music rather than a recording, though I can see that engineers might view things differently.


----------



## JaZZ

crgreen said:


> The problem is, in my experience *many purist recordings are musically vapid.* For me, the quality of the music and the performance always comes first. I'd rather listen to music rather than a recording, though I can see that engineers might view things differently.


 
  
 Unfortunately that's true in my opinion. Lately I was provided with some audiophile two-mic DSD recordings the sound engineer wanted to know my opinion of. They all sounded quite lifelike, but recorded like from a bad listening place in a too small room or too close to a corner – with reverberation of short runtimes alltogether. They reminded me of my own documentary recordings of stage performances with my fusion band, although technically they were better (microphones, sound format) – musically they were rather uninspired. Most of the commercially available audiophile recordings I own or have heard tend to sound like that, to a minor degree. I belong to the people who like to sit in one of the front rows, especially with classical concerts, and I can't stand the sound in the middle of the hall, let alone in the rear – I can't follow the musical information when it's masked by the massive reverberation there. Unfortunately two-mic recordings are prone to this feature – they often sound distant and (thus) unmusical to my ears. I guess I prefer multimic recordings for this very reason and am less interested in a concert-hall perspective. (I like the analogy to some sports events, such as motorcycle races: Do I really want a broadcast with the perspective of a spectator at the venue?) On the other hand runtime stereophony is essential to me – fortunately many of the good (multimic) recordings manage to juggle both. In fact when it comes to the musical information, many recordings fair better than most live events I've attended; after all the last concert with a word premiere of Jan Esra Kuhl's «And again» sounded phenomenal from the first row, better than on the (excellent) recording that was made from it and the composer kindly sent to me, but purely from the musical information the recording is still more significant. Well, that's the crux of a front row: some instruments are much closer to your ears than others.


----------



## PhiQuanTu

Anybody knows a good contact to check on the price of a new Dave? Would you pm me some numbers?

Thanks


----------



## romaz

phiquantu said:


> Anybody knows a good contact to check on the price of a new Dave? Would you pm me some numbers?
> 
> Thanks


 
 This depends on what country you live in.  Prices in North America seemed to be higher compared to elsewhere (including Europe and Australia) but I have noticed that prices are now beginning to drop here in the U.S.  I paid $13,300 + tax for mine from a dealer in San Francisco when the DAVE was first released and this same dealer is now selling them new for $11,900 which is probably a reflection of a more favorable exchange rate.  You can buy them least expensively in the U.K. it seems but I believe you would have to personally travel there to buy one and export it to your home country.  Furthermore, for warranty service, you would be forced to post your DAVE directly to Chord in the UK. as your local Chord dealer or your country's distributor will have no obligation to help you.  Something to keep in mind.


----------



## romaz

drbobbybones said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I know I'm the new guy and I'm probably gonna get shot down to oblivion with this question, but *can we put all the Davina questions into its own thread *and out of this one?  I just got my Chord DAVE, and I LOVE it, but looking for information in this thread is impossible with all of the off topic comments.
> 
> Thanks, and happy new year to you all!  I learned a lot by reading most of the comments on this thread.  I would love some how-to's about settings from anyone else here if they have any!


 
 Congratulations on getting a DAVE.  I agree, reading through nearly 6,500 posts is not an easy undertaking.  The most important posts are from Rob himself.  Start there.
  
 In almost any setup you come up with, DAVE will not be the limiting factor or the weak link and so while DAVE will improve almost any system it is placed in, with proper care and attention, you will find it will have much more to offer.  It depends how high you want to take it.  While talk about Davina, Blu mk2 and Chord's new digital amp can be distracting, these units will be designed to especially shine on the DAVE and will allow the DAVE to show its truer potential and as these devices are expected to be released in the coming months, their discussion on this thread will probably be inevitable.
  
 For speaker use, the single-ended outputs are a bit more transparent but balanced outputs sound excellent so go with what your speaker amp prefers.  For headphone use, feel free to experiment with other headphone amps and go with what sounds best but I believe you will find that nothing will sound as transparent as connecting your headphone directly to DAVE's headphone jack. 
  
 There aren't a whole lot of settings to concern yourself over.  With the HF filter on, you get a touch more smoothness but at the compromise of timing.  Go with what you prefer.  
  
 Same thing with crossfeed.  This is obviously applicable only to headphone listening.  There's no right or wrong and you will find people will have different preferences or no preference at all.  
  
 Regarding the phase switch, you'll be surprised to find how many recordings are out of phase which can lead to a thinner and more bass-shy sound.  Out of phase recordings can also sound more diffuse with poor localization of instruments.  If you question the quality of what you're hearing, try inverting the phase.  
  
 PCM Plus and DSD Plus are self-explanatory.  Unfortunately, you have to toggle from one to the other when you go from PCM to DSD if you want either to sound their best and there is a normal gap of silence that ensues as the DAVE switches from one mode to the other.  While DAVE plays back DSD very well in my own experience, it is well documented that Rob much prefers PCM and that he believes with everything else being equal, PCM at 16/44 sounds better than even DSD512.  I happen to agree with this and so the only time I seek out DSD recordings are if they were natively recorded with a DSD recorder.  
  
 While it has become very chic to upsample PCM to DSD with HQPlayer, feel free to try it yourself and see what you get.  I believe you will find that DAVE does a much better job upsampling than HQPlayer.  Feel content to send DAVE a bit-perfect signal and let DAVE do the rest.  The exception to this would be digital equalization to correct for deficiencies with your headphones or speakers.  JaZZ can tell you all about what a difference this can make.
  
 Should you decide to connect the DAVE to a preamp or an amp with its own volume control, you would do best to use the DAVE's volume control.  It is completely lossless and you won't find anything that will attenuate better.
  
 As far as digital inputs, they all can sound good but Rob will tell you that USB sounds best followed by Toslink and that BNC has the potential to sound the worst.  With BNC and AES/EBU, the quality of the cables matter more as these inputs aren't galvanically isolated.


----------



## romaz

a1uc said:


> Im really liking this setup , purchased Roon its well worth the cost
> the cost


 
  
 Very nice Rodney!  I presume this is the new DX Gen 2 which I believe might be the best Roon Server you can buy today although I believe I have found a way to equal it although not as elegantly.
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/novel-way-massively-improve-sq-sms-200-and-microrendu-31110/#post618454


----------



## a1uc

Yes it is , I also like this because it's a 1 box solution and another option is the CD Ripper 
just insert CD and when it's done ripping it ejects the disk that simple .


----------



## drbobbybones

Quote:


romaz said:


> Congratulations on getting a DAVE.  I agree, reading through nearly 6,500 posts is not an easy undertaking.  The most important posts are from Rob himself.  Start there.
> 
> In almost any setup you come up with, DAVE will not be the limiting factor or the weak link and so while DAVE will improve almost any system it is placed in, with proper care and attention, you will find it will have much more to offer.  It depends how high you want to take it.  While talk about Davina, Blu mk2 and Chord's new digital amp can be distracting, these units will be designed to especially shine on the DAVE and will allow the DAVE to show its truer potential and as these devices are expected to be released in the coming months, their discussion on this thread will probably be inevitable.
> 
> ...


 
  
 This is exactly what I was looking for!  Thanks so much.  
  
 So far, I've experimented with the headphone out and through my Woo Audio WA22.  With the HD 800, I still like it through the Woo more than the headphone out.  Will have to see when my Eikons come in.  I head a Utopia through the headphone out of the DAVE and I was floored--that was a stunning combo.  Maybe that's next... (apologies to my wallet).


----------



## Muataz

I came cross a tool that pit-perfect streaming for foobar and all other apps to our DACs and I really love it and I liked to share it.
 what also good that you can install a extra mode to enable all windows app to go through it.
  
 http://jplay.eu/
  
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2011/06/jplay-a-digital-audiophile-player-for-windows/


----------



## Mython

romaz said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 I'll add just one additional piece of advice to Romaz's excellent suggestion, above, if I may:
  
 avoid, _*at all costs*_, any posts in this thread by a guy called 'Romaz' - he's an absolute nutter and you'll end up remortgaging your house to keep up with his acute & chronic audiophilia!


----------



## pkcpga

drbobbybones said:


> This is exactly what I was looking for!  Thanks so much.
> 
> So far, I've experimented with the headphone out and through my Woo Audio WA22.  With the HD 800, I still like it through the Woo more than the headphone out.  Will have to see when my Eikons come in.  I head a Utopia through the headphone out of the DAVE and I was floored--that was a stunning combo.  Maybe that's next... (apologies to my wallet).



I love my utopia through the Dave directly, definitely a worthy addition.


----------



## rkt31

tested oyaide neo d+ A class 1m USB cable with hugo . despite no burn in, the effect of this pcocc USB cable ( even top of the line extremely expensive USB cable don't have pcocc based wires ) was immediately apparent in silky smooth yet detailed treble. the sound was lot more effortless and effect of being there was more. I have not used very expensive USB cables but pcocc wires are definitely doing the magic. only few cable manufacturers make pcocc wires. furutech and oyaide are two of them. I compared hugo with mojo too with same set up and as tested earlier too hugo is clear winner with more fluidity, clarity and sense of being there. having said that mojo is my preference over hugo for mobile use.



----------



## Shini44

Selling DAVE now, since i am going to move out soon, and for now i won't be using DAVE for months. will get it again later once thing settle down
  
 for the time being i am selling it for a good price, and free Express shipping. its 4~5 Weeks old.


----------



## Crgreen

muataz said:


> I came cross a tool that pit-perfect streaming for foobar and all other apps to our DACs and I really love it and I liked to share it.
> what also good that you can install a extra mode to enable all windows app to go through it.
> 
> http://jplay.eu/
> ...




I use JPlay, and it is excellent. You should be aware however, that it doesn't work with later versions of JRiver due to a dispute between the two businesses, which did neither any credit. For this reason, I've stuck with an earlier version of JRiver on my hi-fi laptop.


----------



## rkt31

I have not used j play but foobar also allows asio driver for bit perfect mode.


----------



## Muataz

rkt31 said:


> I have not used j play but foobar also allows asio driver for bit perfect mode.



The asio driver seems not enough when your PC have in the background other higher priority tasks.
What Jplay do is to have control in the kernel level with an option to freez your PC(all background activity) for the sake of bit-perfect.

I'd like to here your thought guys on this


----------



## Crgreen

It's correct that JPlay does a lot more than ensure bit perfect dats. It makes a substantial difference to sound quality, though I'm unqualified to say exactly why this is. I have found however, that the PC Buffer and XStream settings can have a noticeable effect.


----------



## rkt31

background activity does not have any effect when asio output is selected because asio already bypasses all windows processes. background activities can only affect if too much memory is used by those processes and there is not much left for foobar . foobar itself with asio uses lot less memory.


----------



## Miksu

rkt31 said:


> background activity does not have any effect when asio output is selected because asio already bypasses all windows processes. background activities can only affect if too much memory is used by those processes and there is not much left for foobar . foobar itself with asio uses lot less memory.


 

 Does Chord ASIO driver do error/skip checking and retransmitting of bad/missing packets? If so, Audio player is irrelevant.
  
 Unless unnecessary high CPU load causes more RF noise...


----------



## Mython

miksu said:


> Does Chord ASIO driver do error/skip checking and retransmitting of bad/missing packets?


 
  
 Yes, it does.


----------



## Beolab

Any Chord E. news from CES 2017 yet?


----------



## miketlse

beolab said:


> Any Chord E. news from CES 2017 yet?


 
 several hours to go yet - check the main thread.


----------



## Beolab

miketlse said:


> several hours to go yet - check the main thread.




Link? 

Tidal have now released MQA streaming! 

This is pretty huge! 

Only for desktop us at the beginning: 

http://tidal.com/de/masters


----------



## miketlse

beolab said:


> Link?
> 
> Tidal have now released MQA streaming!
> 
> ...


 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/829906/chord-electronics-ces-launch-extravaganza/345#post_13144636


----------



## romaz

Chord DAVE is about to get 6x better...


----------



## bmichels

romaz said:


> Chord DAVE is about to get 6x better...


 
  
 what do you mean Romaz ?


----------



## Deftone

bmichels said:


> what do you mean Romaz ?




Half price sale


----------



## Beolab

Romaz is refering that the new Blu-CD Transport Mk II will have a mighty 1 million taps if connected to DAVE !! 





http://www.head-fi.org/t/831343/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread/0_50

Second release: 


Hugo 2 for our cheap friend @Christer 
http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/product/hugo-2/

Third release:
A MicroRendu competitor with Roon / battery named:
Poly 

http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/product/poly/


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> Romaz is refering that the new Blu-CD Transport Mk II will have a mighty 1 million taps if connected to DAVE !!
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/831343/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread/0_50
> 
> ...




That's right. World domination!


----------



## supabayes

Wonderful releases from Chord! Looking forward to the transport for DAVE - Million taps!
Poly for Mojo means that I get to enjoy my music on the go with no phone or DAP needed. I can play my music off SD card!


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> That's right. World domination!




1 million taps was almost an utopi for 
6 month ago according to Rob , and with that spec we are near to be able to reconstruct the perfect wavelengths if this news is true. 

Looking forward for the first impressions! 

So next year we will see a Coral series streamer with 1 million taps instead of the Blu- CD MKII i can assume, or what is your prediction?


----------



## ecwl

Since I don't play CDs anymore and the Blu Mk II has no USB input, just BNC, I'd take a pass for now. Can't wait for people to review it here. May change my mind later.


----------



## ubs28

Do you get access to the 1 million taps without listening to CD's? Or is it only when using the CD player?


----------



## jarnopp

supabayes said:


> Wonderful releases from Chord! Looking forward to the transport for DAVE - Million taps!
> Poly for Mojo means that I get to enjoy my music on the go with no phone or DAP needed. I can play my music off SD card!




I think you will still need a phone to control the module by app (no screen and controls), but no cord!


----------



## maxh22

jarnopp said:


> I think you will still need a phone to control the module by app (no screen and controls), but no cord!


 
 Chord has cut the cord and threw it out of the equation with the Poly.


----------



## supabayes

jarnopp said:


> I think you will still need a phone to control the module by app (no screen and controls), but no cord!




Good point. I didn't think about it


----------



## ecwl

On a completely different topic, there has been some DAVE and non-DAVE owners wanting MQA support for DAVE. Not sure how necessary that would be. I just listened to some MQA files from Tidal through DAVE using the Tidal app for Windows. Works fine for me. Mostly 88kHz (Beyonce/2L/Bruno Mars) or 96kHz (The Doors/Buena Vista Social Club) files I presume. Not even sure how much better it really is. Even through the Mojo, the regular 44kHz files sound pretty good to start with.


----------



## esimms86

ecwl said:


> Since I don't play CDs anymore and the Blu Mk II has no USB input, just BNC, I'd take a pass for now. Can't wait for people to review it here. May change my mind later.




I was hoping for a USB input as well but I'm sure that inputting red book(at least 98% of my library) via BNC should still be satisfying enough to get people to open their wallets.


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> Since I don't play CDs anymore and the Blu Mk II has no USB input, just BNC, I'd take a pass for now. Can't wait for people to review it here. May change my mind later.


 
 This is where this device can come in handy.  It was made with Chord DACs in mind:
  
 http://www.audiophilleo.com/Audiophilleo1/SpecialEdition


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> 1 million taps was almost an utopi for
> 6 month ago according to Rob , and with that spec we are near to be able to reconstruct the perfect wavelengths if this news is true.
> 
> Looking forward for the first impressions!
> ...


 
 It seems Rob can make anything happen!


----------



## romaz

ubs28 said:


> Do you get access to the 1 million taps without listening to CD's? Or is it only when using the CD player?


 
 Yes!  The M-scaler works with the BNC input also.


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> On a completely different topic, there has been some DAVE and non-DAVE owners wanting MQA support for DAVE. Not sure how necessary that would be. I just listened to some MQA files from Tidal through DAVE using the Tidal app for Windows. Works fine for me. Mostly 88kHz (Beyonce/2L/Bruno Mars) or 96kHz (The Doors/Buena Vista Social Club) files I presume. Not even sure how much better it really is. Even through the Mojo, the regular 44kHz files sound pretty good to start with.


 
 This is a good question.  With previous presentations, I wasn't so impressed but at RMAF a few months ago, I heard a wonderful MQA presentation through the MSB Select II, good enough that I am wondering the same thing.  Rob should be able to evaluate MQA for himself at CES.  He had previously suggested he would be possible to implement.


----------



## ecwl

I don't know what impressed me more, how fast Rob Watts was able to put together a 1 million tap Blu Mk II, the first time Chord's CD transport actually has more taps than their top of the line DAC, or the fact that they slapped together Hugo 2 so quickly. I know some of the improvements were achievable due to Xilinx 7 technology. But the Hugo 2 not only has 49152 taps but also has 10 element pulse array DAC, instead of 4 elements. That said, it's hard to know what all of it really means. Mojo has double the taps as Hugo but runs at half the speed so there's marketing speak and then there's how the product sound. I think I would only be upset if I bought the Hugo TT recently and the Hugo 2 sounds better.


----------



## Deftone

ecwl said:


> I think I would only be upset if I bought the Hugo TT recently and the Hugo 2 sounds better.




I know I'd be upset if I'd recently bought a TT because chances are it will sound better


----------



## maxh22

deftone said:


> I know I'd be upset if I'd recently bought a TT because chances are it will sound better


 
 The legup that the TT has over the Hugo 2 is galvanic isolation and supercapacitors. The Hugo 2 has more processing power though.
  
 You could fix the galvanic isolation problem with an Intona but the second one is more debatable .


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> I don't know what impressed me more, how fast Rob Watts was able to put together a 1 million tap Blu Mk II, the first time Chord's CD transport actually has more taps than their top of the line DAC, or the fact that they slapped together Hugo 2 so quickly. I know some of the improvements were achievable due to Xilinx 7 technology. But the Hugo 2 not only has 49152 taps but also has 10 element pulse array DAC, instead of 4 elements. That said, it's hard to know what all of it really means. Mojo has double the taps as Hugo but runs at half the speed so there's marketing speak and then there's how the product sound. I think I would only be upset if I bought the Hugo TT recently and the Hugo 2 sounds better.


 
 The Blu Mk II cannot do 1 million TAPS _without_ the DAVE.  This is what makes the DAVE  and this pairing even more special.  This will be the first time the DAVE will be allowed to really flex its muscle.


----------



## ecwl

romaz said:


> The Blu Mk II cannot do 1 million TAPS _without_ the DAVE.  This is what makes the DAVE  and this pairing even more special.  This will be the first time the DAVE will be allowed to really flex its muscle.


 
 Hmmm... I actually don't think that's totally true. In fact, I think if you want, you can pair the Blu Mk II with an MSB Select or Berkeley Alpha Reference DAC with 354kHz 24-bit upsampled music, I think. That said, I don't think there's a way to get 704kHz 24-bit music from the Blu Mk II without DAVE. Now, I presume you'll only end up using say 750,000 taps to get upsampling to 354kHz 24-bit and the other 250,000 taps are used to get to 704kHz 24-bit? Not sure. I don't really understand how this math works. So I think Romaz is right but not exactly...


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> Hmmm... I actually don't think that's totally true. In fact, I think if you want, you can pair the Blu Mk II with an MSB Select or Berkeley Alpha Reference DAC with 354kHz 24-bit upsampled music, I think. That said, I don't think there's a way to get 704kHz 24-bit music from the Blu Mk II without DAVE. Now, I presume you'll only end up using say 750,000 taps to get upsampling to 354kHz 24-bit and the other 250,000 taps are used to get to 704kHz 24-bit? Not sure. I don't really understand how this math works. So I think Romaz is right but not exactly...


 
 You can pair the Blu Mk II with any DAC but only with the DAVE's DX inputs can you get 1 million TAPS.  
  
 DAVE's DX connections will play an especially prominent role in 2017 as Blu Mk 2, Davina and the upcoming digital amp will require these connections to reach full potential.  Again, this will be the year where the DAVE will really be able to show what it can do.


----------



## Sonic77

Are there any prices out on these items?


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> Hmmm... I actually don't think that's totally true. In fact, I think if you want, you can pair the Blu Mk II with an MSB Select or Berkeley Alpha Reference DAC with 354kHz 24-bit upsampled music, I think. That said, I don't think there's a way to get 704kHz 24-bit music from the Blu Mk II without DAVE. Now, I presume you'll only end up using say 750,000 taps to get upsampling to 354kHz 24-bit and the other 250,000 taps are used to get to 704kHz 24-bit? Not sure. I don't really understand how this math works. So I think Romaz is right but not exactly...


 
  
 Upon re-reading your post, I understand it better.  Could the Blu Mk II do more than 164,000 TAPS with another DAC (like the MSB Select or even a Mojo)?  This would be interesting if it did as the combo would effectively be superior to DAVE by itself.  It would also give non-Chord DACs the potential to be better than the DAVE and so it would be very surprising to me if that's the case.  I will know more tomorrow as I will get to hear the Blu Mk II for myself at CES 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .


----------



## ecwl

romaz said:


> Upon re-reading your post, I understand it better.  Could the Blu Mk II do more than 164,000 TAPS with another DAC (like the MSB Select or even a Mojo)?  This would be interesting if it did as the combo would effectively be superior to DAVE by itself.  It would also give non-Chord DACs the potential to be better than the DAVE and so it would be very surprising to me if that's the case.  I will know more tomorrow as I will get to hear the Blu Mk II for myself at CES
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 ​Rob Watts can probably explain it better and more accurately. I think of taps as a surrogate of the processing power used to do the upsampling or a surrogate of how accurate the digital waveform is to the original recorded analog signal.
  
 So Chord DAVE uses 164000 taps to upsample from 44.1kHz to 704kHz and then from 704kHz to 11.2MHz. So that's 256fs. The 11.2MHz is further upsampled to 104MHz using simpler FIR filters.
 Blu Mk II uses 1 million taps to upsample from 44.1kHz to 704kHz. And that's 16fs.
 If you hook up Blu Mk II to DAVE, you'll probably end up using 1 million taps to go from 44.1kHz to 704kHz from Blu and then another 82000 taps? from DAVE to go from 704kHz to 11.2MHz.
  
 If you hook up Blu Mk II to another DAC that takes 352kHz signal, you're probably using 750,000 taps from the Blu. If it's hooked up to an MSB or other R2R DAC, it's all you'll get because R2R DACs can't switch faster the 352kHz. If you hook up the Blu Mk II to say a Berkeley Alpha Reference DAC, it'll probably take the 352kHz signal and just use simple FIR filter to upsample to say 5MHz and output that signal. So essentially, you're only getting the 750,000 taps from the Blu up to 8fs and virtually nothing from the other DACs.
  
 Rob Watts already said that part of the reason why Hugo and subsequently DAVE's timing sounds better is because he want from 4fs WTA filter to Hugo's 16fs to DAVE's 256fs. So using Blu's 8fs 750,000 taps with other DACs probably would lose some timing accuracy compared to using them with DAVE.
  
 Moreover, as we know, DAVE is not just about the tap length and the upsampling WTA filter. It has very sophisticated 17th order noise shaper. It uses a unique DC servo with the FPGA to remove extraneous capacitors for better transparency. I see this technology is now incorporated into the Hugo 2. And it's 20-element pulse array DAC has low noise floor and no noise floor modulation. Moreover, it has a sophisticated power supply and goes for a very transparent low noise circuitry and components.
  
 Hence, I doubt people would prefer Blu + non-DAVE DAC over Blu + DAVE. Heck, I even suspect most discerning people won't prefer Blu + non-DAVE DAC over DAVE alone. That said, we have seen in the forums that many people have different preferences for DACs. As much as Rob Watts try to espouse the sonic and technical advantages of DAVE over DSD/R2R and SDM DAC chip designs, we see people swear by their favorite DSD/R2R/SDM DAC chip DAC. That's why I suggested that for those who just love their non-Chord DACs, they may still be able to benefit from the Blu.


----------



## lovethatsound

Just one simple question
,can you upgrade the original blu to blue 2?


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> ​Rob Watts can probably explain it better and more accurately. I think of taps as a surrogate of the processing power used to do the upsampling or a surrogate of how accurate the digital waveform is to the original recorded analog signal.
> 
> So Chord DAVE uses 164000 taps to upsample from 44.1kHz to 704kHz and then from 704kHz to 11.2MHz. So that's 256fs. The 11.2MHz is further upsampled to 104MHz using simpler FIR filters.
> Blu Mk II uses 1 million taps to upsample from 44.1kHz to 704kHz. And that's 16fs.
> ...


 
 You explained it well.  Thanks.


----------



## rkt31

it would be interesting to hear the impression of cd direct to dave and through blue mk2 to dave.


----------



## Christer

beolab said:


> Romaz is refering that the new Blu-CD Transport Mk II will have a mighty 1 million taps if connected to DAVE !!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the news Beolab, "your cheap friend" is all ears as the saying goes and will definitely audition HUGO 2 ASAP.
 I have to confess that I was a bit tempted to buy your second-hand DAVE  though.
 But yes I am very keen to hear what improvements over HUGO the new model will deliver on DEMANDING densely scored acoustic music which for me remains the ONE AND ONLY REFERENCE POINT after the real thing.
 I haven´t been to any live concerts for over three weeks now and I am gradually adapting to the limitations of both headphone listening and HUGO. But every step  closer to the real thing is appreciated by me provided they don´t charge ridiculous money for this upgrade. I am still very much " the cheap friend".
 Is there any news when samples will be available for audition in Asia?
 I will be in Asia until at least late April, maybe longer.
 The nearest big city for me will probably be Bangkok in early February. Anybody here who knows if there are any CHORD reps there?
 God fortsättning på det nya året Christer


----------



## Shini44

romaz said:


> and the upcoming digital amp


 
 are you talking about the Hugo TT external power amp? or we are getting new one?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

This must be a proud day for Rob. Ever since he calculated all those years ago that it would take 1m taps to perfectly recreate the analogue wave form it has been a journey to this day. Well done Rob. Congratulations!

The mind boggles to think that with 164,000 taps Dave Dac was almost universally acclaimed by the great and the good to be the best the best Dac in the world. This latest accomplishment is exciting news.


----------



## rkt31

may be there is a upgrade of dave in near future with 1M taps , considering the flurry of updates every ear.


----------



## AndrewOld

rkt31 said:


> may be there is a upgrade of dave in near future with 1M taps , considering the flurry of updates every ear.


 

 +1
  
 Though I'm still confused about the Blu 2. But there's no way I'm going back to playing cds in 2017 so despite having a DAVE I have no interest in the Blu2. A streamer for the DAVE would be good, maybe the Poly could be developed into one.  And if you can make a box that can upsample what's on a cd with a 1million tap filter, you can surely make a box that does the same for ripped cds or streamed music.


----------



## rkt31

i thought blu mk2  has digital input so one can feed ripped red book to blue mk2 and upsample and then again feed upsampled data to dave.


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## DaveRedRef-III

rkt31 said:


> i thought blu mk2  has digital input so one can feed ripped red book to blue mk2 and upsample and then again feed upsampled data to dave.




That's my understanding too


----------



## AndrewOld

rkt31 said:


> i thought blu mk2  has digital input so one can feed ripped red book to blue mk2 and upsample and then again feed upsampled data to dave.


 

 Oh ok. So, it doesn't have a USB input .. so I would need to buy a USB to s/pdif converter to connect it to my laptop .. then connect it to my DAVE .. and waste a fortune on all the redundant CD mechanism and electronics. Sorry, just not going to do that under any circumstances. Hope there will be a more elegant solution for those who use ripped or streamed media to play their music and want the million tap logic. It is 2017.  Why can't DAVE do the full up sampling? Or is a million tap DAVE just around the corner?


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## ecwl

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/739-ces-2017-nice-surprises/

So computer Audiophile website talked about a few new products at CES but also took some photos of Rob Watts PowerPoint slides on Blu and Hugo 2. Basically, 1 million taps mean 10A to run on the FPGA chip which means it is too noisy to be part of DAVE. And there is a non-CD external upsampler in the pipeline for other sources.


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## DaveRedRef-III

Haha Everyone is happy!


----------



## AndrewOld

ecwl said:


> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/739-ces-2017-nice-surprises/
> 
> So computer Audiophile website talked about a few new products at CES but also took some photos of Rob Watts PowerPoint slides on Blu and Hugo 2. Basically, 1 million taps mean 10A to run on the FPGA chip which means it is too noisy to be part of DAVE. And there is a non-CD external upsampler in the pipeline for other sources.


 

 Good news about the external upsampler - how do you know that?!


----------



## JaZZ

> So Chord DAVE uses 164000 taps to upsample from 44.1kHz to 704kHz and then from 704kHz to 11.2MHz...


 
  
 I think that's a misconception. After pondering back and forth what these infamous _taps_ actually mean, I'm back to my original understanding (Rob, correct me if I'm wrong):
  
 Taps define the complexity of the _low-pass filter_ necessary for preventing aliasing. The high upsampling rate is necessary to enable such a _digital filter_ at all (so upsampling doesn't happen _by means_ of the taps). The basis for the high tap rate approach is the Nyquist-Shannon theorem that sais for the perfect reconstruction of a band-passed (= low-pass filtered) signal you just need double the sampling rate of the filter frequency. The crux of this formula is that it implies an infinite steepness of the indispensable anti-aliasing filter – at 22.05 kHz at the latest for a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz. The Blu 2 seems to get quite close to an ideal result:
  
*Frequency response:*               0 Hz (DC) – 20 kHz ± 0.0000001 dB
*In-band ripple 0 Hz – 20 kHz:*    ± 0.0000002 dB
  
 That's quite an achievement! It hints to an extremely sharp filter at around 22 kHz.
  
 And why is the sharp filter so important? Because of the ringing (= resonance) it implies. A low-pass filter imperatively causes delayed decay – the sharper, the more it looks like a ringing. This means bad transient reproduction – abrupt starts and stops aren't possible anymore, because sharp edges would require unlimited bandwidth. So the sharper and steeper the filter, the more pronounced/longer the ringing, but at the same time its frequency content will more and more be limited to the filter frequency. So an infinite sharpness and steepness guarantees that the (now infinite) ringing exclusively consists of the filter frequency, which is in the ultrasonic range in the case of the redbook format – whereas audible signal contents will end abruptly, so to speak. That's the _timing_ accuracy Rob speaks of. (At least in my interpretation.)
  
 Thought to the end, it's clear that higher sampling rates, such as 88.2 kHz and above, aren't that much dependent on the high tap count if at all, because the anti-aliasing filters are relatively far away from the audio band. That's why the greatest advantage of Chord's new-generation DACs lies in the «low-res» formats 44.1 and 48 kHz. A high enough tap count and its careful implementation could indeed make hi-res formats dispensable – also in the real world, not just theoretically.


----------



## ecwl

andrewold said:


> Good news about the external upsampler - how do you know that?!




It's in the slides of that link I provided. Rob Watts also talked about it in the audio.


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## analogmusic

10 AMPS current to run Blu 2. that's a crazy amount of processing power !!!!


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## AndrewOld

ecwl said:


> It's in the slides of that link I provided. Rob Watts also talked about it in the audio.


 

 Oh yes, found it now, thanks!
  
 "A separate WTM scaler for Dave is under development for other sources".
  
 Excellent, really looking forward to that. Is it too much to hope it will incorporate some streaming technology pinched from the Poly?


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/739-ces-2017-nice-surprises/
> 
> So computer Audiophile website talked about a few new products at CES but also took some photos of Rob Watts PowerPoint slides on Blu and Hugo 2. Basically, 1 million taps mean 10A to run on the FPGA chip which means it is too noisy to be part of DAVE. And there is a non-CD external upsampler in the pipeline for other sources.




This will be Davina. It will be both an ADC anf DDC and will have the same digital inputs as DAVE.


----------



## Christer

jazz said:


> I think that's a misconception. After pondering back and forth what these infamous _taps_ actually mean, I'm back to my original understanding (Rob, correct me if I'm wrong):
> 
> Taps define the complexity of the _low-pass filter_ necessary for preventing aliasing. The high upsampling rate is necessary to enable such a _digital filter_ at all (so upsampling doesn't happen _by means_ of the taps). The basis for the high tap rate approach is the Nyquist-Shannon theorem that sais for the perfect reconstruction of a band-passed (= low-pass filtered) signal you just need double the sampling rate of the filter frequency. The crux of this formula is that it implies an infinite steepness of the indispensable anti-aliasing filter – at 22.05 kHz at the latest for a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz. The Blu 2 seems to get quite close to an ideal result:
> 
> ...


 

 Hello Jazz,
 your final paragraph made me think of what some classical musicians/ listeners at What´s Best Forum reportedly had to say about DAVE. It sounded very good with 16/44.1 to them.  But  according to them, somewhat at the expense of higher res PCM formats and less good with DSD than native DSD  Dacs.And according to Computer Audiophile´s report from Las Vegas Rob Watts now claims that 16/44.1 is just as good as any hi res format.I have yet to hear that from any DAC with complex large scale symphonic or operatic music.
 That is quite a claim considering nobody, absolutely nobody in the recording business records at anything lower than 24/48 in the classical genre which is the only one of any real interest to me at least.Moreover  His own future product DAVINA will supposedly record at 24/768 or similar rate. Why if 16/44,1 is  just as good ?
 Most  classical labels record at 24/96 or higher PCM and some DSD 64 and 128 or even 256.
 There are instruments in a symphony orchestra that have energy well into 30khz and higher. Some percussion reaches 100khz.
 Do the new  Chord Dacs shave off everything above brickwall at 22khz?
 Does the high f filter option on DAVE do that?
 One of the surprises on my  own audition of DAVE was that some masterfile classical  material  I know very well both live in the halls and from the ADCs used at the sessions ,sounded slightly softer  and more "rounded" than the  real thing and raw playback at sessions.
  
  
 I am a bit confused and surprised by the insistance on 44,1  and CDs by Chord when basically everyone else has long abandonded both.
 But then again I know very little about digital theory.
 And if HUGO 2 proves to sound better more resolved and more realistic on large  classical acoustic music than both Hugo  and the best newish portables from the competition I will upgrade to HUGO 2 asap,provided there is no cheaper competitor doing the same or even better for less  of my money.
 I am after all, Mr Cheap  here.
  
 I  also still suspect that one of the  few advantages of analogue done right as with direct cut LPs and the best tape recorders is that there is no similar bandwidth limiting or complex filtering interpolation tricks involved as with 16/44.1 or  timing issues as with low res pcm.


----------



## Brushane

Christer: I think you have to separate what is good for the studio producer is not the same as for the end consumer. There is a reason to record in hi res formats, since this gives you a whole lot of headroom later in the production process. Even for red book standard, it would be less than ideal to also record at 44.1 kHz.
  
 I am happy there is a producer who acknowledges how good 44.1 kHz really is on a consumer level. I don't mind hi-res formats really, but I think most of the releases coming out are just BS to be honest. What _really _has an impact on sound quality is not hi-res formats, but how it was recorded to begin with. I'd take a well recorded 256 kbps VBR MP3 file over dynamically compressed hi-res 24 bit 96 kHz FLAC any day. The file compression is nothing compared to the problems we have today with dynamic compression.


----------



## JaZZ

christer said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 As to the bolded sentence: Maybe Rob's statement was addressing the Blu 2? I don't think he would have gone to one million taps if it wasn't audibly better than the DAVE's 164,000 taps.
  
 Why record in hi-res nonetheless? Because worldwide music lovers with a DAVE or a DAVE plus a Blu 2 are an absolute minority. Moreover, for sound editing purposes it's always good to have some headroom. Moreover, «low-res» recordings require low-pass filtering before A/D conversion, which is just as problematic as it is on the playback side. But first of all because the equation of hi-res and low-res is far from being established and as mentioned above apparently limited to Chord's TOTL playback gear in the real world.
  
 Yes, some musical instruments reach high into the ultrasonic range, but the ultrasonic content itself most likely isn't audible, at best the byproducts in the form of interferences, or it's even just about timing within the audio band, which is guaranteed by a sharp enough anti-aliasing filter (as described in my previous post).
  
 No, the DAVE's HF filter is just an add-on primarily meant for DSD, but (to Rob's own surprise) it also works for low-res PCM in the form of subtle smoothing (not necessarily higher accuracy, though). I can reproduce your impression about the DAVE sounding slightly smoother than reality – at least it sounds smoother than my other DACs. But I like it, and it sounds fairly realistic to my ears. Now there's certainly no electronics component that's absolutely neutral, but after all the DAVE offers a non-digital sound that emulates live music passably well, better than any other source I know.


----------



## rkt31

10A at 12v is only 120w but at 220v is huge 2kw . so the exact power consumption power figure of blue mk2 is needed. now it is understandable why so many taps and hence so much power is kept separate . it is now clear that we may see a non CD upsampler too in future .


----------



## JaZZ

rkt31 said:


> 10A at 12v is only 120w but at 220v is huge 2kw . so the exact power consumption power figure of blue mk2 is needed. now it is understandable why so many taps and hence so much power is kept separate . it is now clear that we may see a non CD upsampler too in future .


 
  
 That would be great, but 2 kW is a lot nonetheless. Imagine every second household consuming that much additional power! Also, the price would be high even without the CD transport function, so it's questionable if it would be a worthwile upgrade for DAVE owners.


----------



## Christer

brushane said:


> Christer: I think you have to separate what is good for the studio producer is not the same as for the end consumer. There is a reason to record in hi res formats, since this gives you a whole lot of headroom later in the production process. Even for red book standard, it would be less than ideal to also record at 44.1 kHz.
> 
> I am happy there is a producer who acknowledges how good 44.1 kHz really is on a consumer level. I don't mind hi-res formats really, but I think most of the releases coming out are just BS to be honest. What _really _has an impact on sound quality is not hi-res formats, but how it was recorded to begin with. I'd take a well recorded 256 kbps VBR MP3 file over dynamically compressed hi-res 24 bit 96 kHz FLAC any day. The file compression is nothing compared to the problems we have today with dynamic compression.


 

 Hello Brushane,
 I am  not interested in consumer level. I am  interested in the best possible SQ combined with the best possible simple miking recording technique and best played best  large scale and chamber art music /classical acoustic music performed in the best venues by the best artists reproduced as realistically and as close  to how it sounded live in the hall, as possible. And in my experience there should be as little  tampering or compression or post production involved as possible.
 We live in an age when it both is and should be possible to hear recordings of live music without  unnecessary sacrifices of decimation and compression and mixing pult creations instead of how live music actually sounds in good hall. In my experience the lower the bits and res EVERYTHING ELSE EQUAL OF COURSE, the lower the realism.
 Even with very good simple  miking I begin to quite  reliably hear the  typical  digital compromises from  24/48 and down.I have on quite a few occasions had the privilige to hear comparisons from DXD down to 24/48, 24/44,1 compared with live in the hall and mic feed.  And  on each occasion it sounds more digital the lower the res.
 There should in other words be as  little  difference between what was heard in the hall and what is being repoduced on what you call consumer level as possible .
 Hence  masterquality  should be the goal all the way imho.
 Consumer level compromises should only apply for the Mp3 kids and  synthetic studio pop/rock crap  imho.
 I am completely uninterested in what they do or don´t do.
 There is virtually no low level detail reverb tails acoustic or other very  sofisticated timbral  and tonal and harmonic complexities  and finer nuances in those genres that hi res could reveal anyway. But there are tons of those things,in complex  densely scored large scale classical music.
 Not only Mozart and Tchaikovsky or basically any other of the classical composers benefit from hi res but also many contemporary composers  like The Danish composer Norgard whose symphonies have been recorded both at 24/48 and 24/88.2 by DACAPO.
 The 24/88.2recordings capture his complex music and dense textures audibly better and more realistically than the lower res ones.
 And playing his music decimated  to 16/44.1 makes it sound strained and lifeless compared to the  24/88.2 masterfiles  via high quality electrostatic speakers as  just one  example of what I am talking about.
 Both computers and hardrives and DACs are capable of handling and storing/playing back  hi res files with ease compared to when 16/44.1 was introduced and unfortunately became the standard for much too long imho.


----------



## Brushane

With all due respect, I think you misread what I meant with "consumer level". Consumer level is where you are at, unless you work with doing recordings yourself. Consumer level can be whatever format it is you are consuming, that is all: Be it whatever kids are using, or what you prefer to use.
  
 My reply was in reference to this paragraph:


> "That is quite a claim considering nobody, absolutely nobody in the recording business records at anything lower than 24/48 in the classical genre which is the only one of any real interest to me at least.Moreover  His own future product DAVINA will supposedly record at 24/768 or similar rate. Why if 16/44,1 is  just as good ?"


 
  
 It looked to me as you misunderstood what has been said about 16/44.1 and it's greatness. Maybe you didn't, but this is what generated my reply.
  
 All the best


----------



## Sonic77

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/739-ces-2017-nice-surprises/
  
 So the Blu mk 2  is approximately $9,852.00
 The Hugo 2 approximately $2,218.00
 The Poly approximately $615.00
  
 Using current conversion today.


----------



## AndrewOld

romaz said:


> This will be Davina. It will be both an ADC anf DDC and will have the same digital inputs as DAVE.




Are you sure the Davina and the "separate WTM scaler for Dave for other sources" referred to above are the same thing? 

Why would most people with a DAVE want an ADC any more than they want a cd spinner?

I do hope that that WTM scaler is separate from Davina.


----------



## JaZZ

christer said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Christer, what I meant in my previous posts is that all your concerns are possibly addressed by a low-pass filter with one million taps (maybe you could even live with DAVE's «low-res» performance, as I do). So on «consumer level» (as explained by Brushane) redbook and the like will do.


----------



## Mython

jazz said:


> .... (maybe you could even live with DAVE's «low-res» performance, as I do).


 
  
  
 LOL.... oh.... how times have changed.
  
 Seems like it was only yesterday when a million taps was just a distant dream and a mere twinkle in Rob's eye...
  
 Hey, _wait a minute..._it _*was*_ only yesterday!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

It would seem to me if (As I expect) all but the most acute of hearing will be unlikely to tell Red Book from Hi Res through Dave/Blu II combination then the cheapest way for any new audiophile or any converted vinyl enthusiast to amass a 2000 album collection would be to go CD. That's a saving of the best part of £15k compared to download costs and would pay for the kit. CD's are just so cheap these days.


----------



## JaZZ

daveredref-iii said:


> It would seem to me if (As I expect) all but the most acute of hearing will be unlikely to tell Red Book from Hi Res through Dave/Blu II combination then the cheapest way for any new audiophile or any converted vinyl enthusiast to amass a 2000 album collection would be to go CD. That's a saving of the best part of £15k compared to download costs and would pay for the kit. *CD's are just so cheap these days.*


 
  
 ...and so impractical to handle. So you'd need a nechanical 2000-CD changer (music box) for shuffling the whole collection... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...not good for their physical health. Hey, and what about equalizing your headphones?
  


mython said:


> LOL.... oh.... how times have changed.
> 
> Seems like it was only yesterday when a million taps was just a distant dream and a mere twinkle in Rob's eye...
> 
> Hey, _wait a minute..._it _*was*_ only yesterday!


 
  
 Yeah, Rob is a magician.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I don't mind puting a disc on the player Jazz. I guess old habits die hard.


----------



## lovethatsound

jazz said:


> ...and so impractical to handle. So you'd need a nechanical 2000-CD changer (music box) for shuffling the whole collection... :blink: ...not good for their physical health. Hey, and what about equalizing your headphones?
> 
> 
> Yeah, Rob is a magician.


Their's nothing wrong with cd,s jaZZ,their easy to handle.


----------



## Sonic77

I bet this new cd Dave combo sounds great.


----------



## JaZZ

lovethatsound said:


> Their's nothing wrong with cd,s jaZZ,their easy to handle.


 
  
 Yes, I also thought so after switching from vinyl discs.


----------



## SunWarrior

jazz said:


> ...and so impractical to handle. So you'd need a nechanical 2000-CD changer (music box) for shuffling the whole collection...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  Mechanical 2000-CD changer?
  
  Yah, I call that music box my Aurender.
  Only 2600 albums at this point though.
  
  Dave, who looks forward to the non-CD-playing version of this new Chord gizmo to get to 1M taps


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Have to smile when I think about all those competitors scrambling to catch up after the launch of Dave only to find at the start of 2017 what probably equates to an even greater jump in SQ.


----------



## Mython

daveredref-iii said:


> Have to smile when I think about all those competitors scrambling to catch up after the launch of Dave only to find at the start of 2017 what probably equates to an even greater jump in SQ.


 
  
  
 Aye, but only an unwise person would be complacent about such matters.
  
 Rob is undoubtedly pushing the leading edge forward, and at an impressive rate of knots, but there are lots of talented engineers in the world who will not be idly sitting on their laurels.
  
 Any activity that advances the state of the DAC art, be it on Rob's part or that of his peers, is probably good news for the industry, as a whole, so I don't view healthy competition and innovation as a bad thing.
  
 ...nonetheless, I am in awe at what Rob has now achieved - _*BRAVO!! *_


----------



## maxh22

mython said:


> Aye, but only an unwise person would be complacent about such matters.
> 
> Rob is undoubtedly pushing the leading edge forward, and at an impressive rate of knots, but there are lots of talented engineers in the world who will not be idly sitting on their laurels.
> 
> ...


 
  
 What is even more astounding is that Rob has managed the willpower to keep all this excitment in close secrecy. I'm sure this was his lifelong dream!


----------



## Crgreen

I applaud Rob's technical achievement, but at the moment I can't see myself investing in CD technology. Many of my CDs have been ripped and are in storage. Surely better to wait for the upsampler which presumably will take a USB input from a computer or other similar device and output to two BNC connections which go into the back of the DAVE. Since they'll be no CD mechanism, I assume it will be cheaper too.


----------



## Ampus

I am old school and still spin CD's and therefore naturally excited about the new Blu. What I don't understand is how upsampling CD files would bring CD's SQ to the same level of those files that were originally recorded in hi-res format. If you have a 4 cylinder engine on your Honda Civic, you could tweak the ECU as much as you want but you would never achieve the performance level of a Huracan's V10 engine. Maybe some forum members can enlighten me on the SQ with upsampling?

If I remember correctly, some of the reviewers on the old Blu / DAC 64 combo stated that sometime music through this combo sounded slightly harsh and unnatural. Would be interesting to read a formal review of the new Blu / DAVE combo.


----------



## JaZZ

ampus said:


> I am old school and still spin CD's and therefore naturally excited about the new Blu. What I don't understand is how upsampling CD files would bring CD's SQ to the same level of those files that were originally recorded in hi-res format. If you have a 4 cylinder engine on your Honda Civic, you could tweak the ECU as much as you want but you would never achieve the performance level of a Huracan's V10 engine. Maybe some forum members can enlighten me on the SQ with upsampling?
> 
> If I remember correctly, some of the reviewers on the old Blu / DAC 64 combo stated that sometime music through this combo sounded slightly harsh and unnatural. Would be interesting to read a formal review of the new Blu / DAVE combo.


 
  
 I've already explained it here. It's not the upsampling that does the trick, but the better (sharper) anti-aliasing filter (with the higher tap count) enabled by it.


----------



## Jawed

Wow, I have to say these three new products are very exciting. I would go so far as to say that I expect Hugo 2 will probably sound surprisingly close to DAVE (more so than Hugo TT).

I've only just realised that Blu Mk 2 is doing something very special: it completely replaces the first stage upsampling in DAVE. DAVE's first stage upsampler takes 1xFS to 16xFS audio and creates 16xFS as its output.

DAVE can't upsample a digital stream that is already at 16xFS (705.6KHz). So the 1st Stage WTA Interpolation Filter is a pass-through stage:



DAVE simply does the following stages ("Cross Feed...", "WTA 2nd Stage Interpolation filter...", "Linear Interpolation filter..." etc.).

Now I understand the talk about the new FPGA in Blu Mk 2 being "extremely noisy", using lots of power and being disruptive to the "quiet" environment inside DAVE. Keeping the two boxes separate was always a key concept from the start of the CD transport + DAC configuration that arose back in the 1980s: each box being optimised for the specific job and the final audio signal remaining unpolluted by the transport.

I dare say in a few years' time the FPGA in Blu Mk 2 will be superseded by something at lower power and cost (as we saw with the FPGA in Mojo). At that time DAVE 2 can do everything in one box for those who just want a replacement for DAVE.

The idea that later this year there could be an upsampler that uses the Blu Mk 2 FPGA but has no transport while supporting USB, as an upgrade for DAVE, is also pretty exciting. I wonder if that box will connect to DAVE through USB instead of BNC?...

So, now the big question, one which I have no doubt Rob is expecting to be asked: *is one million taps enough?* I can't help thinking that the apparently large jump in performance beyond DAVE's 164,000 taps is indicative that there's much more in them thar 44.1KHz at 16-bit bits. Perfect sound forever? Well it simply took almost forever to arrive...

Perhaps when the dedicated streaming upsampler is released there'll be an option to use two of them: one for the left channel and the other for the right channel. 2 million taps...

Now playing: Mark Lanegan - Borracho


----------



## esimms86

My initial excitement about the Blu CD mkII is somewhat dimmed by the following:

1) it's very existence tells us just how far along Rob is is in writing code for Davina(also expected to be out in 2017). In other words, wait another maybe 9 months and Davina is here. Also gives me more time to save for my preferred purchase.
2) while I currently have little interest in an ADC, there are many who do. Hobbyists who make needle drops of their vinyl (and also have Dave) would IMO make Davina a better bet for resale than the Blu CD mkII. And who knows, I may someday decide to get a turntable and software to do needle drops myself. On the other hand, I don't ever see myself routinely CDs again(acknowledging that folks who own a Blu CD mkII will undoubtedly choose to occasionally play a CD out of curiosity, to show a visitor as a demonstration or otherwise just because they can).
3)all CD transports, like spinning hard drives, eventually fail. 
4)in the not too distant future CDs will go the way of the Dodo bird.
5)mostly #1

Esau


----------



## Kamil21

esimms86 said:


> My initial excitement about the Blu CD mkII is somewhat dimmed by the following:
> 
> 
> 2) while I currently have little interest in an ADC, there are many who do. Hobbyists who make needle drops of their vinyl (and also have Dave) would IMO make Davina a better bet for resale than the Blu CD mkII. And who knows, I may someday decide to get a turntable and software to do needle drops myself. On the other hand, I don't ever see myself routinely CDs again(acknowledging that folks who own a Blu CD mkII will undoubtedly choose to occasionally play a CD out of curiosity, to show a visitor as a demonstration or otherwise just because they can).
> ...




As an obsessive tweaker of Computer Audio, I still find that for 44.1k recordings, a good CD drive can sound much better than many computer/server based sources.

It would be interesting to see how the sound of new Blu with CD matches that of 44.1k computer sources through its bnc input.


----------



## lovethatsound

kamil21 said:


> As an obsessive tweaker of Computer Audio, I still find that for 44.1k recordings, a good CD drive can sound much better than many computer/server based sources.
> 
> It would be interesting to see how the sound of new Blu with CD matches that of 44.1k computer sources through its bnc input.


Totally agree with you.Anyone who reads this thread and other thread's on head fi and indeed on other sites know just how frustrating computer audio can be,should i use wav,should i use flac,why doesn't this work with my dac,and so on . music should be simple,just turn on and enjoy in a matter of seconds.Theirs to many formats in computer audio,it's just one big mess in my opinion,thank god for CD☺


----------



## Sonic77

I at least want to give this cd player a chance.


----------



## Mython

sonic77 said:


> I at least want to give this cd player a chance.


 
  
 Oi, get to the back of the queue!


----------



## Sonic77

Quote: 





mython said:


> Oi, get to the back of the queue!


----------



## Beolab

So can anyone confirm that the blue got a digital input that would be WTA upscaled in the same way as the CD signal?


----------



## a1uc

So has it been determined that the Dave SE output sounds better than the Balanced Output ? Has anyone ran the Dave in DAC mode into a Balanced preamp and found this to be true ?
  
 Is the SE superior to the bal ?


----------



## Crgreen

I run my DAVE in DAC mode into a balanced input of a balanced preamp. For a time I also ran it SE into a SE input, and was able to do A/B comparisons, though obviously I had to adjust levels. I found no discernible difference. Many have claimed that theoretically, the SE output is superior, but so far as I'm aware, no one has actually claimed to hear a difference. 

I'm also struck by the number of CD proponents who've suddently come on stage, apparently hitherto just waiting in the wings when computers and USB was the only way to go


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

a1uc said:


> So has it been determined that the Dave SE output sounds better than the Balanced Output ? Has anyone ran the Dave in DAC mode into a Balanced preamp and found this to be true ?
> 
> Is the SE superior to the bal ?




I have tried Balanced and SE from Dave internal pre into Chord power amp and preferred Balanced on grounds of superior dynamics despite the SE being run on superior cables. Sound had little to differentiate. I only noticed a difference in the dynamics.


----------



## analogmusic

I've tried se and balanced into a preamp that both connections (linn klimax preamp)

Similar cables

Se is better hands down. The bass is more defined and articulated.


----------



## jelt2359

a1uc said:


> So has it been determined that the Dave SE output sounds better than the Balanced Output ? Has anyone ran the Dave in DAC mode into a Balanced preamp and found this to be true ?
> 
> Is the SE superior to the bal ?


 
 It really depends on your amp setup. If your amp is a balanced amp, it means that it will take the SE signal to convert to a balanced one. So the question is whether the Dave, which is a SE DAC, does a better job of converting to balanced or whether your amp does a better job.
  
 I mostly use single-ended tube amps so I just stick to SE all the way.


----------



## Kamil21

Us Dave users may have missed out on another big Chord announcement which is the Poly.

It has got me thinking when mentioned elsewhere that the Poly is actually like a battery powered Microrendu. All is needed is a micro USB adapter cable into the Dave USB in. Given Rob Watts wizardry, I would bet that it would also give the microrendu a run for its money.

Please let's hope or lobby Chord not to 'lock' the USB protocol of Poly to the Mojo alone. If it does work with Dave, that would be absolutely amazing!


----------



## jlbrach

I have 5000 or so CD's so the new CD drive with my Dave is certainly interesting...mark me down as one who thinks CD's are the way to go rather than streaming and all it entails


----------



## Mython

kamil21 said:


> Us Dave users may have missed out on another big Chord announcement which is the Poly.
> 
> It has got me thinking when mentioned elsewhere that the Poly is actually like a battery powered Microrendu. All is needed is a micro USB adapter cable into the Dave USB in. Given Rob Watts wizardry, I would bet that it would also give the microrendu a run for its money.
> 
> Please let's hope or lobby Chord not to 'lock' the USB protocol of Poly to the Mojo alone. If it does work with Dave, that would be absolutely amazing!


 
  
  


mojo ideas said:


> music4mhell said:
> 
> 
> > I assume it will work with other USB dac with an adapter, because Mojo's usb port is generic ...!
> ...


----------



## Crgreen

analogmusic said:


> I've tried se and balanced into a preamp that both connections (linn klimax preamp)
> 
> Similar cables
> 
> Se is better hands down. The bass is more defined and articulated.




Is the Klimax a balanced preamp? I've found that as a general rule, balanced tends to work better into a balanced circuit, SE into a SE circuit, but not invariably so. Like everything, it depends on how it's implemented.


----------



## Sonic77

It says at the bottom of screen that a separate WTA M scaler for Dave is under development for other sources, can someone give me an example of other sources? And how that could be implemented. Thank you.


----------



## lovethatsound

sonic77 said:


> It says at the bottom of screen that a separate WTA M scaler for Dave is under development for other sources, can someone give me an example of other sources? And how that could be implemented. Thank you.


Laptop,streaming,anything really,that has a digital output on it.Buy the way if you got a blu 2 transport I'm sure you can use any of the above through the blu 2☺


----------



## a1uc

I have a Audio Researh Ref 6 and it feeding
a pair of SE ended tube monoblocks , but I'm 
using a pair of nice transformers between the Ref 6 and 
SE Monoblocks to convert the signal

I can hook both SE and Bal from dave to the Ref 6 and
at a flip of a switch compare , I'll have to do this .
I just remember hearing SE is driven different than bal 
In the Dave and SE sounded best


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

i can imagine many many major studios taking delivery of the Dave + Blu II combination for testing mixes and final mastering results. Having then experienced the best, I can also imagine an orderly queue forming for the Davina when ready because who would not want that tech on the analogue conversion side of the process?

The future is very bright for Chord. Time for bigger premises I think!


----------



## Crgreen

I wonder whether that might be a rather optimistic view of how the rest of the world regards the importance of sound quality. As a matter of interest, how many studios currently employ a DAVE to test sound quality?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

[COLOR=FF00AA][/COLOR]





crgreen said:


> I wonder whether that might be a rather optimistic view of how the rest of the world regards the importance of sound quality. As a matter of interest, how many studios currently employ a DAVE to test sound quality?




I don't know but I do know Chord amps are used widely by studios. As for being optimistic about how the rest of the world regards the importance of sound quality, it is true that some studios do appear to lack a fastidious attention to achieving class leading sound quality but it is also true that many care very much about the best sound quality. Particularly those doing mastering services.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Abbey Road use Chord products btw


----------



## analogmusic

Nice to know that Rob Watts achieved the dream of a million taps.
  
 But I am very curious HOW DOES IT SOUND ?????


----------



## Crgreen

I've no idea how many studios (if any) use a DAVE, but it strikes me that if they haven't talready invested in one, they're unlikely to do so because of the new CD transport. Of course, in the absence of any concrete evidence, all such matters are taking place in our imaginations.


----------



## Music Alchemist

@Rob Watts: I have a few questions for ya.
  
 (This thread moves so quickly I haven't kept up with the latest updates, so I apologize if these questions were already answered. If you and any others with answers would be so kind as to quote me to be sure I see the reply, it would be appreciated.)
  
 Edit: Thanks to @romaz for addressing these questions.
  
First, a silly one, but I wanted to make sure: Is it possible to play digital files (on a PC or music server) with the Blu Mk. 2 connected to the DAVE, or do you have to play CDs with it? (It looks like the only input is BNC S/PDIF, so at the least, it would appear a converter would be needed.)
  
If you can play digital files with it, would you still get the million+ taps?
  
Can you share what your plans (if any) are for a DAC (no external CD transport required) with ultimate performance? Will there be an add-on for the DAVE that will enable it to reach over one million taps, but at a much lower price than the Blu Mk. 2? Or do you think you would simply design an entirely new DAC for this? (I'd rather not have to buy the Blu Mk. 2 in addition to the DAVE to get the best performance, as I mainly use digital files.)
  
 Is the sound quality of the Blu Mk. 2 superior to the DAVE in every way? (If so, some may be more likely to get the former before or instead of the latter.)
  
 Is the NightHawk still your favorite headphone? (I have one coming in today, actually.) Do you have any impressions of it vs some of the most expensive headphones? I read your post about liking it more than other headphones, but you didn't go into much detail, and I'm assuming you've heard many ultra-high-end models.
  
 P.S. I also bought the Mojo. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (It'll be awhile until I can afford the DAVE...)


----------



## romaz

I spent a good part of yesterday in the Chord room at CES. It was a wonderful several hours spent with Rob and John with enlightening conversation and, of course, listening to DAVE with Blu Mk2. I will be back in the Chord room today to give Hugo 2 and Poly a listen. Obviously, these are exciting times for Chord and for many of us.

As I've already previously posted, the SPDIF/BNC input on Blu 2 is run through the M-scaler and so 1 million TAPS is not just limited to CD playback. 

As I've also previously posted, the next Chord component to incorporate the M-scaler will be Davina. This will be both ADC and DDC and will have the same digital inputs as DAVE. The PCB for Davina will be completed in a few days and from there, testing will ensue. Rob isn't sure when it will be ready, maybe by summer but ultimately, "it will be ready when it's ready." Is there a reason to wait for Davina if all you are interested in is the M-scaler? According to Rob, not really. Even if you prefer a USB source (as I do), you could use a USB to SPDIF converter. While the Audiophilleo converter I recently tried didn't sound as good to my ears as USB direct to DAVE, Rob believes this difference will disappear with the SPDIF input on Blu as the signal will be completely regenerated by his M-scaler before it is passed off to DAVE.

As for those of us who no longer spin CDs (like myself) but who really want the benefits of a million TAPS and the vastly improved WTA filters Rob has come up with, then consider the CD transport as a free bonus because Blu 2 and Davina are expected to cost the same. If you feel you might benefit from the ADC in Davina and insist on having multiple digital inputs, then wait for Davina. If the appeal of spinning CDs is there for you (even occasionally), then there's no reason to wait as the M-scaler implementation in Blu 2 will be equivalent to Davina.

To answer the questions posed by some, will there be an upgrade path for original Blu owners? Unfortunately, no. Should original Blu owners consider the upgrade even if you don't own a DAVE? If SQ is your goal, absolutely, yes! 

Can you combine Blu 2 with a Mojo, Hugo 2 or even a non-Chord dac like a Schiit Yggy or MSB Select II and will the M-scaler benefit those DACs? Yes, you can and yes, it will. The M-scaler will effectively bring those DACs up to 500 million TAPS but according to Rob, those 500 million TAPS still won't sound as good as the same 500 million TAPS on DAVE because of a certain synergy that will exist between Blu 2/Davina and DAVE and of course, with DAVE, it will be 1 million TAPS.

Will 1 million TAPS benefit 16/44 more than high-res files? According to Rob, more TAPS will benefit all resolutions equally. Rob was also quick to point out that it's not just about the number of TAPS but how those TAPS are used and he believes with his new filters, these TAPS are being used more effectively and to greater musicality than ever before.

As far as power consumption, yes, the M-scaler requires 10 amps but at 1 volt and so it only consumes 10 watts. Nonetheless, a 10A supply in the DAVE would be very polluting and so there was never a consideration to incorporate the M-scaler and DAVE in the same chassis.

Are there plans to incorporate M-scaler + built-in streamer? Not at this time. 

Can the new Poly be used on the DAVE? Rob had nothing to do with the design of Poly but he looked at this possibility for the first time yesterday and it would appear that the Poly can be accommodated for the DAVE very easily.

Could Poly be looked at as being similar to a battery operated microRendu? Yes. The functionality and feature set will be similar. Poly also has the advantage of incorporating wifi. Poly is expected to receive Roon certification shortly.

As for SQ improvements, I will preface my initial comments by saying that when Hugo first came out, I was impressed by it but not overly enamored by it. When DAVE came out, I thought the SQ difference was enormous. The ratio of TAPS from Hugo to DAVE is about the same as DAVE to the M-scaler which is about 6:1 and so I was expecting roughly the same jump in SQ. Rob allowed me the privilege of directly comparing CD playback without the M-scaler vs CD playback at 500 million TAPS and finally at 1 million TAPS. I will provide more in-depth comments at a later time but the SQ difference is instantly evident from the standpoint of depth and clarity using both headphones (LCD-4) and speakers. While 500 million TAPS sounded very very good, 1 million TAPS was just simply that much more amazing. There was not this sense of diminishing return and the leap from DAVE to a full million TAPS is more impressive to my ears than the leap I recall hearing from Hugo to DAVE. I have never before found the DAVE to sound "pedestrian" when compared against any DAC but compared to DAVE + M-scaler, it does. I have placed my order for a Blu 2.


----------



## miketlse (Aug 28, 2020)

[Deleted]


----------



## Music Alchemist

miketlse said:


> Look at the picture in post #6558 (the last line especially).
> Presumably this confirms that the davina project will come to fruition in the coming months, and allow non-CD sources to be used as well. Maybe this will be a CES 2018 launch.
> Answered better by @Romaz


 
  
 Yeah, and according to him, you can still use digital files with the Blu Mk. 2, and if you don't need an ADC, the Davina may not be preferable if they cost the same.


----------



## miketlse

music alchemist said:


> Yeah, and according to him, you can still use digital files with the Blu Mk. 2, and if you don't need an ADC, the Davina may not be preferable if they cost the same.


 
  
 I think that there will be many owners of rare records that were never released on CD, who will be interested in the concept of the Davina.


----------



## Crgreen

When you say 500 million taps, do you half a million?


----------



## analogmusic

Hi Romaz
  
 what is the sound of a million taps into Dave??
  
 Also wanted to ask if other Dave owners felt that Dave improved over time? Any run in?
  
 I know Chord say every Dave is identical, but mine sounds more musical today, after a month....
  
 Maybe my imagination?
  
 Could also be my Dynaudio speakers as I got them a few months ago, but they need hundreds of hours of running in time.


----------



## Kamil21

In case anybody here missed this, it's a comprehensive discussion of Blu Mk2 by Rob Watts.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/800264/watts-up/165#post_13150760


----------



## lovethatsound

romaz said:


> I spent a good part of yesterday in the Chord room at CES. It was a wonderful several hours spent with Rob and John with enlightening conversation and, of course, listening to DAVE with Blu Mk2. I will be back in the Chord room today to give Hugo 2 and Poly a listen. Obviously, these are exciting times for Chord and for many of us.
> 
> As I've already previously posted, the SPDIF/BNC input on Blu 2 is run through the M-scaler and so 1 million TAPS is not just limited to CD playback.
> 
> ...


Thanks romaz for keeping us all in the picture,it sounds like your having a great time there(I'm jealous lol)As for the original blu not being able to upgraded to the blu 2 will be a big disappointment for blu owners,who were told by their dealers when getting the Dave,that it would able to be upgraded.Very Naughty Chord.Anyway romaz,have a great time☺


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

crgreen said:


> I've no idea how many studios (if any) use a DAVE, but it strikes me that if they haven't talready invested in one, they're unlikely to do so because of the new CD transport. Of course, in the absence of any concrete evidence, all such matters are taking place in our imaginations.




You seem to have overlooked the fact that Recording Studios have been asking for Davina based upon their assessment of Dave tech. It was they who suggested A Chord ADC rather than Chord touting the idea


----------



## 7ryder

crgreen said:


> Is the Klimax a balanced preamp? I've found that as a general rule, balanced tends to work better into a balanced circuit, SE into a SE circuit, but not invariably so. Like everything, it depends on how it's implemented.


 
 I used to have one, in fact an entire Klimax system - DS/1 streamer, Klimax preamp and Klimax monoblocks - and all are balanced. 
  
 the question is whether or not he's using the balanced outputs into a balanced amp...if not, then there prolly isn't any benefit using the balanced in/out on the Klimax preamp with DAVE.


----------



## romaz

miketlse said:


> I think that there will be many owners of rare records that were never released on CD, who will be interested in the concept of the Davina.




I agree. It will be interesting to see how Davina compares against a top notch phono preamp.


----------



## romaz

crgreen said:


> When you say 500 million taps, do you half a million?




Sorry, yes, I meant 500,000.


----------



## 7ryder

daveredref-iii said:


> Abbey Road use Chord products btw


 
 Unless something has recently changed, Abbey Road uses Classe amps with B&W speakers


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

7ryder said:


> Unless something has recently changed, Abbey Road uses Classe amps with B&W speakers




I am pretty sure this was mentioned in an interview with Chord, 7ryder. If I have made a mistake I apologise but I am 90% sure I read it last year. May have been Air studios also.


----------



## 7ryder

romaz said:


> I spent a good part of yesterday in the Chord room at CES. It was a wonderful several hours spent with Rob and John with enlightening conversation and, of course, listening to DAVE with Blu Mk2. I will be back in the Chord room today to give Hugo 2 and Poly a listen. Obviously, these are exciting times for Chord and for many of us.
> 
> As I've already previously posted, the SPDIF/BNC input on Blu 2 is run through the M-scaler and so 1 million TAPS is not just limited to CD playback.
> 
> ...


 
 I'm assuming you have a typo here Roy...last I looked, 500 million is 500 times bigger than 1 million, so if mo' taps means betta sound, 500 would be better!


----------



## 7ryder

daveredref-iii said:


> I am pretty sure this was mentioned in an interview with Chord, 7ryder. If I have made a mistake I apologise but I am 90% sure I read it last year. May have been Air studios also.


 
 Not entirely sure myself, but as a Classe owner (SSP-800), I knew that to be true at one time.
  
 As for Chord, on their website it states that
  
"our first amplifiers were supplied to the BBC, followed by world-leading ​first amplifiers were supplied to the BBC, followed by world-leading studios including Abbey Road, Sony Music (New York) and later, The Royal Opera House.​ading studios including Abbey Road, Sony Music (New York) and later, The Royal Opera House".

 This implies past tense...and​ there are news releases that Abbey Road purchased 33 delta amps in the past 5 years or so to use with the B&W speakers. Which makes sense since they are both from the same company.​  
Chris​


----------



## Sonic77

lovethatsound said:


> Laptop,streaming,anything really,that has a digital output on it.Buy the way if you got a blu 2 transport I'm sure you can use any of the above through the blu 2☺


 

 Awsome, thank you for that info.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

7ryder said:


> Unless something has recently changed, Abbey Road uses Classe amps with B&W speakers




There is mention in the second paragraph here, though I think the article I read was more recent
http://www.stereolifemagazine.com/interviews/item/1165-john-franks-chord-electronics


----------



## Mython

Hands up who reckons *at least* 50% of Blu sales, during the first 3 months, will be from rival DAC companies desperate to know what difference the M scaler makes to the performance of their own DACs, and to the performance of DAVE vs their own DACs?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Chord amps used at Air Studios for near field monitoring

http://www.airstudios.com/the-studios/lyndhurst-hall/equipment-list/


----------



## Sonic77

mython said:


> Hands up who reckons *at least* 50% of Blu sales, during the first 3 months, will be from rival DAC companies desperate to know what difference the M scaler makes to the performance of their own DACs, and to the performance of DAVE vs their own DACs?


 

 ​I'm sure Chord won't complain, but I might if it delays me getting my hands on this Cd Player


----------



## romaz

sonic77 said:


> ​I'm sure Chord won't complain, but I might if it delays me getting my hands on this Cd Player :bigsmile_face:




Blu 2 is expected to begin shipping in February.


----------



## miketlse

mython said:


> Hands up who reckons *at least* 50% of Blu sales, during the first 3 months, will be from rival DAC companies desperate to know what difference the M scaler makes to the performance of their own DACs, and to the performance of DAVE vs their own DACs?


 
  
 At first I thought, that there are not enough DAC companies, but if Chord are still only shipping a few Blu2s each month, then your estimate may not be far off the mark.


----------



## Crgreen

daveredref-iii said:


> You seem to have overlooked the fact that Recording Studios have been asking for Davina based upon their assessment of Dave tech. It was they who suggested A Chord ADC rather than Chord touting the idea




As I said, I wasn't aware, but thanks to you, now I am. I'd no idea that Davina wasn't Rob's idea. That's one recording studio, which is a start I suppose. At the moment, we can't even get agreement on what kind of amplification Abbey Road uses, let alone whether they use a DAVE, but that would make two. Just how many recording studios are there?


----------



## pkcpga

Will chord add MQA soon since tidal is now streaming MQA and it has become more common. I listened to MQA through the meridian ultra dac and I have to admit I like the sound even better than dsd or cd. Can't imagine how great it would sound on the Dave.


----------



## ecwl

pkcpga said:


> Will chord add MQA soon since tidal is now streaming MQA and it has become more common. I listened to MQA through the meridian ultra dac and I have to admit I like the sound even better than dsd or cd. Can't imagine how great it would sound on the Dave.




Hmmm. I already listened to MQA from Tidal using my Tidal for Windows app into Chord DAVE. Tidal app decodes the MQA stream back into 24/88 or 24/96 and plays it through the DAVE. As Romaz and Watts wondered if there's going to be a huge difference between 16/44 vs 24/96 in Blu Mk II, I have to say at least with a few tracks I heard through MQA compared to my CDs, I'm not hearing much of a difference through DAVE or even through Mojo (maybe a subtle difference with Mojo, not sure). I've found in the past 24/96 files are only marginally better than 16/44 with DAVE and noticeably but not dramatically better with Mojo. I think MQA is great for DACs with not enough tap length to upsample so MQA can both compress a 24/96 sound file to 24/48 in a lossy manner and it can tell the DAC the optimum upsampling filter with limited tap length to use. But I think for Chord DACs with much longer tap length for upsampling, the 16/44 to 24/96 upsampling is so close to the original 24/96 recording already, the benefits of MQA or even hi-res become more marginal.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

crgreen said:


> As I said, I wasn't aware, but thanks to you, now I am. I'd no idea that Davina wasn't Rob's idea. That's one recording studio, which is a start I suppose. At the moment, we can't even get agreement on what kind of amplification Abbey Road uses, let alone whether they use a DAVE, but that would make two. Just how many recording studios are there?




I think Rob indicated that they are not expecting to make big bucks from Davina but then again they had the same view of Hugo until it took off. I think the main benefit though will be raising the profile of Chord. Which is a good reason in itself.

Given what Romaz said earlier that Davina will be ADC and DAC I guess any studio interested in this tech would be more likely to wait and buy the Davina, especially at the price. I wish Chord well in this venture. They clearly have great product and are on a roll.

EDIT: 'not' expecting to make big bucks on Davina


----------



## Crgreen

According to Romaz' report, Davina will be a ADC and a DDC (upscaler). Obviously, the latter feature was never even hinted at previously, and it turns what appeared to be only a professional or hobby device into a real consumer product. Sadly, I doubt I'll ever be able to afford it for my DAVE and to use with my phono amp, though I could always trade in my preamp, which would then become redundant.


----------



## miketlse

crgreen said:


> According to Romaz' report, Davina will be a ADC and a DDC (upscaler). Obviously, the latter feature was never even hinted at previously, and it turns what appeared to be only a professional or hobby device into a real consumer product. Sadly, I doubt I'll ever be able to afford it for my DAVE and to use with my phono amp, though I could always trade in my preamp, which would then become redundant.


 
  
 Rob has mentioned the ADC for many months, but a lot of readers failed to notice:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/5280#post_12948718
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/5160#post_12940973
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/4830#post_12874921
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/4785#post_12869814
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/4740#post_12861944
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3315#post_12646453
  
 I think that someone posted that there is also info on the Rob Watts thread.


----------



## pkcpga

ecwl said:


> Hmmm. I already listened to MQA from Tidal using my Tidal for Windows app into Chord DAVE. Tidal app decodes the MQA stream back into 24/88 or 24/96 and plays it through the DAVE. As Romaz and Watts wondered if there's going to be a huge difference between 16/44 vs 24/96 in Blu Mk II, I have to say at least with a few tracks I heard through MQA compared to my CDs, I'm not hearing much of a difference through DAVE or even through Mojo (maybe a subtle difference with Mojo, not sure). I've found in the past 24/96 files are only marginally better than 16/44 with DAVE and noticeably but not dramatically better with Mojo. I think MQA is great for DACs with not enough tap length to upsample so MQA can both compress a 24/96 sound file to 24/48 in a lossy manner and it can tell the DAC the optimum upsampling filter with limited tap length to use. But I think for Chord DACs with much longer tap length for upsampling, the 16/44 to 24/96 upsampling is so close to the original 24/96 recording already, the benefits of MQA or even hi-res become more marginal.




I have the luxury of having the Dave and now the ultra dac, with MQA the ultra dac seems to provide better separation and timing similar to dsd with much smaller and easily streamable sized files. So while I'm not ready to ditch the Dave for the ultra dac, I may wind up using the ultra dac for my home system instead. Even playing the tidal MQA through the cheap bluesound node 2 it definitely sounds much better than playing tidal hifi from it, since bluesound node 2 has an MQA dac. Cheap one but still sounds very nice for its price point. When I first heard MQA through a non mqa dac I didn't think all that much of it but with proper deciding I really like it and it's file size.


----------



## Sonic77

romaz said:


> Blu 2 is expected to begin shipping in February.


 

 Ok thanks that's good to know.


----------



## ecwl

pkcpga said:


> I have the luxury of having the Dave and now the ultra dac, with MQA the ultra dac seems to provide better separation and timing similar to dsd with much smaller and easily streamable sized files. So while I'm not ready to ditch the Dave for the ultra dac, I may wind up using the ultra dac for my home system instead. Even playing the tidal MQA through the cheap bluesound node 2 it definitely sounds much better than playing tidal hifi from it, since bluesound node 2 has an MQA dac. Cheap one but still sounds very nice for its price point. When I first heard MQA through a non mqa dac I didn't think all that much of it but with proper deciding I really like it and it's file size.


 
 I have to admit I am already changing my mind about my previous comments on MQA vs 16/44. I think it may depend on the source material. I wonder if some of those MQA files are just upsampled 24/44 to 24/88 like Bruno Mars. Probably some originally recorded MQA files do sound better than 16/44. But like I said, Meridian and other MQA DACs don't have long tap length filters like Chord DACs so using MQA to tell the DAC what digital upsampling filter to use once the file is decoded back to 24/88 or 24/96 probably make a bigger difference to sound quality.
  
 I think ultimately, it just comes down to whether you like Ultra or DAVE more and how you like to play your files. If you have no way to decode your MQA stream to 24/88 or 24/96 and feed it to the DAVE, and you don't mind the Meridian Ultra, then maybe Ultra is the way to go for you. But if you like DAVE better, I personally would go through the extra effort of setting up a way to decode MQA stream to 24/88 or 24/96 by software and feed it to DAVE instead.


----------



## Crgreen

miketlse said:


> Rob has mentioned the ADC for many months, but a lot of readers failed to notice:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/5280#post_12948718
> 
> ...




Agreed, but that isn't what I said. I referred to two things and commented on "the latter feature" which is the DDC. The ADC is the "former" feature and has been discussed many times. 

So far as I'm aware, for obvious reasons Rob has not mentioned the upscaler on this blog or anywhere else, but I stand to be corrected.


----------



## pkcpga

ecwl said:


> I have to admit I am already changing my mind about my previous comments on MQA vs 16/44. I think it may depend on the source material. I wonder if some of those MQA files are just upsampled 24/44 to 24/88 like Bruno Mars. Probably some originally recorded MQA files do sound better than 16/44. But like I said, Meridian and other MQA DACs don't have long tap length filters like Chord DACs so using MQA to tell the DAC what digital upsampling filter to use once the file is decoded back to 24/88 or 24/96 probably make a bigger difference to sound quality.
> 
> I think ultimately, it just comes down to whether you like Ultra or DAVE more and how you like to play your files. If you have no way to decode your MQA stream to 24/88 or 24/96 and feed it to the DAVE, and you don't mind the Meridian Ultra, then maybe Ultra is the way to go for you. But if you like DAVE better, I personally would go through the extra effort of setting up a way to decode MQA stream to 24/88 or 24/96 by software and feed it to DAVE instead.




So meridian rep explained there is a difference between computer deciding MQA files and dac decoding since dac decoding seem to play at 24/352.8 and not 24/88. I'm not super into the tech end of it but there is a noticeable sound difference playing through a MQA dac verse letting the app change it over for a non mqa dac. I've purchased a few album in mqa now as well and they really sound terrific for classical music verse standard cds and don't require the storage space of dsd. So I'm hoping the Dave will receive an update for mqa in the future even if I have to pay a fee to get the update.


----------



## miketlse

crgreen said:


> Agreed, but that isn't what I said. I referred to two things and commented on "the latter feature" which is the DDC. The ADC is the "former" feature and has been discussed many times.
> 
> So far as I'm aware, for obvious reasons Rob has not mentioned the upscaler on this blog or anywhere else, but I stand to be corrected.


 
 Sorry, I misread your post.


----------



## JaZZ

pkcpga said:


> So meridian rep explained there is a difference between computer deciding MQA files and dac decoding since dac decoding seem to play at 24/352.8 and not 24/88. I'm not super into the tech end of it but there is a noticeable sound difference playing through a MQA dac verse letting the app change it over for a non mqa dac. I've purchased a few album in mqa now as well and they really sound terrific for classical music verse standard cds and don't require the storage space of dsd. So I'm hoping the Dave will receive an update for mqa in the future even if I have to pay a fee to get the update.


 
  
 I strongly suspect that an MQA signal would require MQA capable (software) *equalizers* to pass the full content of the format to a hardware decoder/DAC. And I don't expect such equalizers to be available any time soon. So for people like me who are into equalizing MQA is most likely no option for now.


----------



## Hubert H

analogmusic said:


> Also wanted to ask if other Dave owners felt that Dave improved over time? Any run in?
> I know Chord say every Dave is identical, but mine sounds more musical today, after a month....
> 
> Maybe my imagination?
> ...


 
 This is interesting.
  
 I don't believe that there is any burn in with the Dave, I had a long term loan whilst I waited for my new Dave and they sounded the same or as near as possible.
  
 I have had some thoughts on this burn in business for a while and I think that it could be to do with the cable connections. I had my system running sweetly for a good year or two and never touched it, BLU, QBD76, CPA4000 Chord pre-amp and SPM1400E monos. I've always used contact enhancer to clean terminals (with a cotton bud using very little fluid) and good quality standard balanced cables that meet spec.
  
 When I decided to sort out my stand I took it all apart, clean the heatsinks of cobwebs and dust et cetera and re-connected the components. No cables were changed, power was the same, shelves etc. Switch on and the sound has changed, it's brighter and sharper. After a few weeks the sound suddenly popped into goodness again and stayed that way. I have heard this a few times now.
  
 So, what I am saying, is that if a system is resolving enough, low noise floor et cetera, even small 'issues' can impact the sound. I think that phono sockets, speaker binding posts et al are degrading regardless of supposed quality. My Dave sounds brilliant at the moment so I won't be touching anything for a while


----------



## Hubert H

crgreen said:


> Is the Klimax a balanced preamp? I've found that as a general rule, balanced tends to work better into a balanced circuit, SE into a SE circuit, but not invariably so. Like everything, it depends on how it's implemented.


 
  
 Exactly, it's not easy to compare as it depends on the amp's architecture.
  
 I have a balanced amp and assume that the circuitry in the Dave is more direct than that in the amp. Besides, if the ultimate destination is a balanced amp, it makes sense to use the advantage of balanced cables to connect - as long as they are in spec...
  
 H.


----------



## adyc

Romaz,

Can you check with chord whether Davina has USB output to DAVE? Two good quality BNC cable is more expensive than USB cable given the high bit rate demand good quality BNC cable.

DAVE specs it needs 4 BNC input to accept 704 KHz but it seems that they can now accept 704 KHz using dual BNC input. Is there a need to upgrade the firmware?


----------



## ecwl

pkcpga said:


> So meridian rep explained there is a difference between computer deciding MQA files and dac decoding since dac decoding seem to play at 24/352.8 and not 24/88. I'm not super into the tech end of it but there is a noticeable sound difference playing through a MQA dac verse letting the app change it over for a non mqa dac. I've purchased a few album in mqa now as well and they really sound terrific for classical music verse standard cds and don't require the storage space of dsd. So I'm hoping the Dave will receive an update for mqa in the future even if I have to pay a fee to get the update.




Right. While I'm sure some tracks are originally 24/192 or even 24/384, I think most tracks as Tidal pointed out were MQA 24/96 to begin with. So if you play it with Tidal app, it'll decode the track to 24/96 and feed it to DAVE which would then use its 164000 taps to decide it to 24/384 then 24/11.2MHz and then so on. Whereas if you feed it to a meridian DAC, the DAC would decide the MQA file to 24/96 and then based on the MQA coding, choose an appraising or non-appraising 1000 tap length say digital filter to take the 24/96 to 24/384. That's why I think MQA is great for non-Chord DACs that have short tap length filters because it's compensating for an inherent technical limitation for the DACs. Ultimately, you'll have to compare software decided MQA into Chord vs MQA into Meridian yourself and pick your preference. I just don't think MQA is as magical as you think it is and nor do I think Chord DACs would improve miraculously if they can decode MQA files via hardware.


----------



## ecwl

Decode not decide. Couldn't correct it as I'm typing on my iPhone with Safari


----------



## Jawed

I have a mechanical keyboard which I use for my computer at home, a classic IBM Model M from 1993 that makes quite a loud clicking sound as each key is pressed.

At different times I hear a huge variation in the quality of the sound of this keyboard. It varies from a dull-ish clack to a sharp, seemingly higher-pitched click. The keys do vary in their sound compared with each other, but the overall sound quality that I perceive varies quite a lot. Some days it sounds dull and other times it sounds much more precise, much sharper, much more "clicky".

All this variation happens to coincide with how "good" or "bad" my hi-fi sounds.

When the clicking noise is very sharp, fast and precise sounding this is also the time when the hi-fi sounds best: the bass sounds fast, powerful and deep, the midrange sounds more open and the treble sounds delicately refined and extended. There's a sense of great dynamics and an effortless flow in the music. The soundstage feels much easier to hear into and is much bigger. Music makes much more sense and is very satisfying to listen to 

So, from the variation in the sound of my keyboard I can tell that my hearing is changing over time: the quality varies up and down. It can change over a few hours. It can remain at a particular level for days or weeks at a time. I don't blame the hi-fi...

Now playing: Pink Floyd - Fat Old Sun


----------



## Crgreen

hubert h said:


> Exactly, it's not easy to compare as it depends on the amp's architecture.
> 
> I have a balanced amp and assume that the circuitry in the Dave is more direct than that in the amp. Besides, if the ultimate destination is a balanced amp, it makes sense to use the advantage of balanced cables to connect - as long as they are in spec...
> 
> H.




I agree, which is why I used balanced out from my DAVE. Both my preamp and power amp are balanced circuits.


----------



## esimms86

Simple question for those who have had a chance to listen at CES 2017. How does MQA with reported improved time domain accuracy compare with Chord Dave/Blu CD mkII with 1 million taps?


----------



## pkcpga

ecwl said:


> Right. While I'm sure some tracks are originally 24/192 or even 24/384, I think most tracks as Tidal pointed out were MQA 24/96 to begin with. So if you play it with Tidal app, it'll decode the track to 24/96 and feed it to DAVE which would then use its 164000 taps to decide it to 24/384 then 24/11.2MHz and then so on. Whereas if you feed it to a meridian DAC, the DAC would decide the MQA file to 24/96 and then based on the MQA coding, choose an appraising or non-appraising 1000 tap length say digital filter to take the 24/96 to 24/384. That's why I think MQA is great for non-Chord DACs that have short tap length filters because it's compensating for an inherent technical limitation for the DACs. Ultimately, you'll have to compare software decided MQA into Chord vs MQA into Meridian yourself and pick your preference. I just don't think MQA is as magical as you think it is and nor do I think Chord DACs would improve miraculously if they can decode MQA files via hardware.




Just an FYI, MQA native is 24/352.8 if you buy a MQA track or natively play one. Meridian told me you need a native mqa playing dac to play at that level, hence the difference of playing even Tidal direct mqa, needs to be selected in tidal verse tidal master which is not the same as direct mqa. This is also stated on Tidal site if you look how to play mqa direct verse master in settings.


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> I spent a good part of yesterday in the Chord room at CES. It was a wonderful several hours spent with Rob and John with enlightening conversation and, of course, listening to DAVE with Blu Mk2. I will be back in the Chord room today to give Hugo 2 and Poly a listen. Obviously, these are exciting times for Chord and for many of us.
> 
> As I've already previously posted, the SPDIF/BNC input on Blu 2 is run through the M-scaler and so 1 million TAPS is not just limited to CD playback.
> 
> ...




Great scoop Roy i think all of us in here highly regard this info from you. 

Neverteless i hope and pray for a stand alone M-Scaler with USB / S/Pdif as everyone would like to buy, even not Chord owners. 

Can you describe in short what you felt happened with the sound besides depht and clarity? Did it give you a more analog feeling with some wamth left or? 
From your description i read it like it is more of the same as if it is about to tip over against the slightly analythical side, or what is your honest golden ear opinion? 

Then it would have been great fun to hook it up to a diffrent DAC brand like a Nagra, Esoteric , Emmlabs , DCS or why not a Mojo and see what would happen! 

Have a great day on CES !


----------



## analogmusic

MQA with a meridian explorer Dac is relatively inexpensive way to enjoy music


----------



## romaz

adyc said:


> Romaz,
> 
> Can you check with chord whether Davina has USB output to DAVE? Two good quality BNC cable is more expensive than USB cable given the high bit rate demand good quality BNC cable.
> 
> DAVE specs it needs 4 BNC input to accept 704 KHz but it seems that they can now accept 704 KHz using dual BNC input. Is there a need to upgrade the firmware?




I have confirmed with Rob that neither Blu 2 nor Davina will have USB out. Davina, however, will have USB in and also SPDIF/BNC, AES/EBU, and Toslink. As before, Blu 2 will only have SPDIF/BNC in. As for requiring expensive BNC cables, this will not be necessary. Unlike DAVE, the SPDIF/BNC input and the BNC/DX outputs on Blu 2 and Davina will be galvanically isolated. Just make sure you have a true 75 ohm cable with good shielding.


----------



## Rob Watts

romaz said:


> adyc said:
> 
> 
> > Romaz,
> ...


 
 Just to clarify - Davina does have a dedicated USB out - the single USB is bi-directional, so it could input say 48 kHz on the single USB and at the same time output the M scaler output at 768 kHz back to the PC. So you could make a recording at 768 kHz and play back to Dave at a later date; or I guess you could route the USB output from Davina to Dave via the PC with an appropriate app.
  
 But the intention is that Dave would get the 768 kHz via the galvanically isolated BNC  exactly like I am doing now with the Blu mk 2.
  
 Rob


----------



## analogmusic

Hi Rob
  
 Ok Davina/Blu 2 is more for real time processing, but can we obtain this level of processing without having such an expensive FPGA and cost (including the metal work)
  
 I don't mind (and neither will many Dave owners) some latency, and it doesn't even have to be real time anyway - as you said to play back on Dave at a later date.


----------



## adyc

I hope one day Chord will combine Poly and M scalar technology to one product like dcs Vivialdi upsampler. If you look at price of dcs Vivialdi, Chord products are again a bargain, But dcs Vivialdi transport can play SACD. However, it is not important to me as I don't have any SACD.

I will wait for Davina to come out and decide to buy whether blu2 or Davina.


----------



## Crgreen

Yes, Davina seems the way to go, acting as a hub for all sources, digital and analog. I can can connect my CD transport, a Meridian 500, which might not be in the same category as the new Chord transport, but I wonder how much that will matter.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

So I guess those who stream their music would appreciate a single box from Chord with the new upsampler (from Blu II) plus a grown up Poly? This would then connect to their Dave?


----------



## bmichels

Sorry for the stupid question, but I want to be sure that I understand well: when using a music server, I will get better sound with music server > blu2>DAVE than just music server>DAVE ? Correct ? 

How the sound will be changed ? Even more details ( IMO DAVE already provides enough details) or better musicality and more "be there" ? What to expect from this 1 million taps ?


----------



## Crgreen

At the moment, the only people outside Chord who can comment on the improvement brought about by upscaling and a million taps are those attending the show. Hopefully, Roy will have some observations


----------



## lovethatsound

bmichels said:


> Sorry for the stupid question, but I want to be sure that I understand well: when using a music server, I will get better sound with music server > blu2>DAVE than just music server>DAVE ? Correct ?
> 
> How the sound will be changed ? Even more details ( IMO DAVE already provides enough details) or better musicality and more "be there" ? What to expect from this 1 million taps ?


Yes you will get better sound,you can plug anything in that's got a digital out.By the way it's a good job you didn't buy the original blu as it can not be upgraded,even know we were told it would be.Naughty dealers,Naughty Chord,not very good customer care is it?


----------



## jelt2359

beolab said:


> Great scoop Roy i think all of us in here highly regard this info from you.
> 
> *Neverteless i hope and pray for a stand alone M-Scaler with USB / S/Pdif as everyone would like to buy, even not Chord owners.*
> 
> ...


 
 I think so too. I have never bought a CD Player in my life, and don't even know what an ADC does.
  
 Nonetheless I really like the sonic improvements possible here.


----------



## miketlse

jelt2359 said:


> I think so too. I have never bought a CD Player in my life, and don't even know what an ADC does.
> 
> Nonetheless I really like the sonic improvements possible here.


 
  
 An ADC (Analogue to Digital Converter) is the opposite of a DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter).
  
 An ADC will be used:

by recording companies to convert the analogue signal from microphones, into a digital file for recording/editing purposes.
the Devialet digital amplifiers use an ADC to convert the analogue signal from turntables, into a digital format, which can then have digital RIAA de-equalisation performed, prior to digital amplification
some vinyl users, including those who own old rare records that were never released as CDs, like to use an ADC to capture a digital version (eg FLAC or similar) of their record. This helps avoid the wear and tear on the old record, but until now, not all ADCs managed to capture the full analogue experience. Hopefully the davina ADC will raise the bar somewhat.
owners of old analogue tapes, also like to create digital versions, before the tapes wear out.
  
 Hope this helps explain things at a top level.


----------



## Beolab

A fun combo would be the Blu MkII M-scaler connected to the DAVINA with the dual DX inputs and then down to your DAVE connected to the FPGA digital amps with the DX inputs =)
  
 2 m Taps in theory, but it would not work just for now, but in the future =)
  
 I think this is going to be like the Camera: Megapixel / TV: 4K , 8K or 100Hz / 200Hz / 600hz interpolation hysterical development thing.
  
 Next year we are up on 2 m , and the next 3 m Taps ( Moore's Law ). 
  
 So in a couple of years we can look back at this day and laph to this when the dac is equipped with a quant processor made of Grafen =)


----------



## JaZZ

beolab said:


> So in a couple of years we can look back at this day and laph to this when the dac is equipped with a quant processor made of *Grafen* =)


 
  
 ...and CDs consist of the same material (graphene)...


----------



## miketlse

How many DAVE owners, have placed their orders for these? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
http://www.whathifi.com/news/focal-utopia-tournaire-are-worlds-most-expensive-headphones


----------



## jelt2359

miketlse said:


> An ADC (Analogue to Digital Converter) is the opposite of a DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter).
> 
> An ADC will be used:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks. Explains why I had no idea. I do none of those things. 


beolab said:


> A fun combo would be the Blu MkII M-scaler connected to the DAVINA with the dual DX inputs and then down to your DAVE connected to the FPGA digital amps with the DX inputs =)
> 
> 2 m Taps in theory, but it would not work just for now, but in the future =)


 
 You're right! OMG!


----------



## Sonic77

bmichels said:


> Sorry for the stupid question, but I want to be sure that I understand well: when using a music server, I will get better sound with music server > blu2>DAVE than just music server>DAVE ? Correct ?
> 
> How the sound will be changed ? Even more details ( IMO DAVE already provides enough details) or better musicality and more "be there" ? What to expect from this 1 million taps ?


 

 ​+1
 Excellent question.


----------



## Rob Watts

beolab said:


> A fun combo would be the Blu MkII M-scaler connected to the DAVINA with the dual DX inputs and then down to your DAVE connected to the FPGA digital amps with the DX inputs =)
> 
> 2 m Taps in theory, but it would not work just for now, but in the future =)
> 
> ...


 
 I can see where you are coming here but it doesn't actually work that way - the taps are only used when it up scales, so a 768 khz signal would just get past through another M scaler unchanged.
  
 As too Moore's law - hmm it's running out of steam, so the rate of progress is  much slower now.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

sonic77 said:


> bmichels said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry for the stupid question, but I want to be sure that I understand well: when using a music server, I will get better sound with music server > blu2>DAVE than just music server>DAVE ? Correct ?
> ...


 
 We have run a few dems at CES here, and there have been a few choice words on the first 3 seconds of plugging the M scaler in. Very exciting!
  
 It is not small, and absolutely everything improves.
  
 Rob


----------



## Mython

rob watts said:


> As too Moore's law - hmm it's running out of steam, so the rate of progress is  much slower now.
> 
> Rob


 
  
  
 Running out of steam?
  
 Sounds more like Murphy's Law, to me!
  
  
 Oh well, I'll guess everyone will just have to make do with a mere 1million taps, for the timebeing.
  
 It's a hard life


----------



## Kamil21

rob watts said:


> We have run a few dems at CES here, and there have been a few choice words on the first 3 seconds of plugging the M scaler in. Very exciting!
> 
> It is not small, and absolutely everything improves.
> 
> Rob




I predict that from now on, Chord or Blu2 to Digital, would be what Linn or the Linn Sondek was to analogue ... extracting the most information out of an old or tired format and making the world of music all the better for it!

I may be jumping the gun here, but well done, Chord!


----------



## bmichels

rob watts said:


> We have run a few dems at CES here, and there have been a few choice words on the first 3 seconds of plugging the M scaler in. Very exciting!
> 
> It is not small, and absolutely everything improves.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 thanks Rob, but can you elaborate on "very exciting".   More details & precision ? more soul ? more musicality ? more intimate....
  
 May be I will be banned from this forum to say this, but as of today, I prefer NAGRA & VITUS sound to DAVE because, despite the fact that DAVE may offer more details & precision, I find NAGRA & VITUS sound to be TO MY EARs more enjoyable, bringing more soul and presence to my music, with a more intimate presentation.
  
 So... will Blu2 Mscaller move the DAVE sound more in the direction that I like (for me), which is definitively not a need for even more precision/details, but more...soul ?


----------



## nepherte

bmichels said:


> May be I will be banned from this forum to say this, but as of today, I prefer NAGRA & VITUS sound to DAVE because, despite the fact that DAVE may offer more details & precision, I find NAGRA & VITUS sound to be TO MY EARs more enjoyable, bringing more soul and presence to my music, with a more intimate presentation.


 

 Heresy. Light the torches XD


----------



## Crgreen

When Rob says that everything improves, I don't take him to mean that everything changes to the same degree. Obviously, these things are relative and recording dependent. I'm wondering how DAVE can be improved, but I'm prepared to take his word for it. In my (limited) experience, you don't know how things can be improved, until you hear them. Which is probably just as well, as otherwise you'd live in a permanent state of dissatisfaction and your audio system wouldn't be doing its job properly.


----------



## Sonic77

rob watts said:


> We have run a few dems at CES here, and there have been *a few choice words *on the first 3 seconds of plugging the M scaler in. Very exciting!
> 
> It is not small, and absolutely everything improves.
> 
> Rob


 

 ​Bravo! Smashing! Brilliant!
 Must be the tea I'm drinking.


----------



## JaZZ

Good news:
  


> *A separate WTA M scaler for DAVE is under development for other sources.*


 
  
 (see last line in last slide)
  
 But maybe my excitement was premature. Three lines later:
  


> *The USB M scaler is actually Davina.*


 
  
 So Rob, can you comment? No separate WTA M scaler apart from Davina?


----------



## Mython

jazz said:


> Good news:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  


rob watts said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Mython

hahaha - you updated moments before I posted, JaZZ!


----------



## Mython

rob watts said:


> kamil21 said:
> 
> 
> > andrewold said:
> ...


----------



## JaZZ

> > *I have already looked into that, and its possible that eliminating the ADC won't actually make a great deal of difference. The majority of the BOM cost is metalwork, FPGA, PCB and power supply. The ADC savings (analogue integrators and pulse array) is actually quite small and would probably be outweighed by the costs of producing two products.*


  
 Yeah, I've seen that, too.


----------



## esimms86

Looking for a little clarification here. Chord's product announcement for the Blu mkII says that it uses 1 million taps. It doesn't say 1 million in conjunction with Dave and 500,000 when connected to other DACs, nor does it say 500,000 when playing a red book CD without a standalone DAC. If Romaz's analysis is correct then the product announcement is confusing at best. All this leads me to wonder how the sound compares when a CD is played on the Blu mkII with and without Dave.

Also, if Davina will potentially be available by summer then the wait time between the Blu mkII and Davina may be as short as 5-6 months. As much as we all want to enjoy the sound of 1 million taps in our own homes, £7,995 product is not an impulse buy. And if you wait you can spend 150 USD on music instead of spending it on an Audiophileo device.

Davina promises to be the best ADC ever produced. It's then a little ironic for so many Davinas to end up in the systems of playback hobbyists who have no intention of every using it as an ADC.

The previous gold standard ADC was the Pacific Microsonics 2, now long out of production and commanding a price of 20,000 USD if you can even find one for sale. If Chord someday decides to get out of the ADC business it would leave Davina as a product made out of "unobtainium." I couldn't imagine that there would be many audiophiles willing to part with their Davina/Dave combo. 

Final question and then I'll give it a rest. I'm assuming that the Blu mkII and Davina will both come in choice of silver or black?

Esau


----------



## adyc

I want a streamer and Mscalar in one box. In my opinion, they rush Blu2. They should add the steaming option to Blu2. It will be ultimate source component . I don't accept the argument that there is BNC input. First, I don't want more boxes and cables unless it is necessary. I don't want DAVE to become ridiculous dcs Vivaldi mulitboxes. Second, the BNC input is limited to up to 192kHz.

Chord, please consider a Blu2 SE to add the steaming option.


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


> Great scoop Roy i think all of us in here highly regard this info from you.
> 
> Neverteless i hope and pray for a stand alone M-Scaler with USB / S/Pdif as everyone would like to buy, even not Chord owners.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, Fredrik. 
  
 I am home now (I arrived late last night and it's been tough to report back until now).  It was probably the best CES in recent memory with lots to see and hear.  The Chord room and the time spent with Rob and John were easily the highlight.  Thank you both!  Just the most gracious hosts!
  
 Both Blu 2 and Davina can indeed be used with any DAC including a Mojo, Nagra, etc.  Blu 2 will likely be the best CD transport in the universe regardless of what DAC it is connected to.  Davina could well compete with the very best phono preamp in the world even though you would be going from analog to digital and back to analog again.  As Rob has stated, it can also be used to digitally record analog media to a very high standard if a computer is connected to Davina via USB, perhaps the highest standard ever known.  Only when combined with DAVE can either of these devices truly equal analog because it is only with 1 million TAPS that you can faithfully recreate the original analog waveform.
  
 As for my honest first impressions, here they are.  To be fair, it will take me more listening time in my own system to really tell you what I think.  I don't think I have a golden ear any more than anyone else but I have a very good sense of what I like and what I'm looking for and because I have sought to hear and compare many things, what I do have in abundance is perspective.  I believe it is well known to most that I covet the experience of a live performance in an acoustical venue.  Large orchestral classical music is by far my favorite genre and probably the most challenging for a DAC to convincingly portray but I also love other types of music, especially live jazz and even rock and pop as long as the performance is soulful.  As I write this, I am listening to Pink Floyd.  I find it amazing what DAVE can do with any genre.
  
 What I will say is the combo of DAVE + Blu 2 just took a massive step forward in sounding like you are there and that is probably the finest compliment I can give any piece of equipment.  In a live situation, never have I wished that the sound was warmer, more organic, had fuller midrange, more extended highs or better bass but as you know, to achieve this type of balance requires more than just a good DAC although the DAC is obviously a foundational piece.  In some ways, compared to the Vienna Acoustic speakers and the Chord Mezzo 75 amp that were used in Chord's setup, I like my system at home better but this obviously took me much time and effort to achieve and I also believe this has a lot to do with my DAVE directly powering my speakers.  I cannot overstate just how HUGE I believe Chord's upcoming digital amp will be for a speaker setup or for headphones that require more power and how much better this type of setup will reveal the impact of 1 million TAPS.  Even compared against the million dollar setups I heard at CES over the weekend, I have yet to hear a setup that speaks to my heart and my overall sensibilities better than what I have at home.  Despite this, what I heard with DAVE + Blu 2 was very very special and I heard it immediately and I'm certain most will also.  In a simplistic sense, yes, there is better depth and clarity of detail but these things are huge because these are the things that all DACs strive for and yet so few truly achieve.  As DAVE owners, we are already spoiled by these qualities and yet the M-scaler gives you more of it, so much more that in comparison, the DAVE by itself sounded hazy and flat, descriptors that I have never before used with the DAVE.  I know what you're asking, however.  In the end, it really isn't just about depth and clarity of detail, it is a greater sense of musicality and engagement that we seek and so if this is your question, then let me provide you this perspective.
  
 As I do at all audio shows I attend, I listen to a lot of different setups and without fail, I am always impressed by a few.  This year, I really enjoyed hearing the new YG Audio Sonja XVS ($265,000) powered by a pair of wonderful Audionet amps.  Interestingly, as a prominent European journalist came into the room for a listen, they abruptly switched from digital playback to vinyl.  I have witnessed this a lot, however.  When it matters most, most rooms switch to vinyl.  Why?  Because their vinyl setups are more musically engaging.  Even in the Nagra room, which I always enjoy, René Laflamme seemed to play more analog than digital even with Nagra's newly updated HD DAC.  Of course, this is never the case in MSB's room where their statement Select II DAC takes center stage with no turntable or reel to reel in sight.  The MSB room is always well done and just like at RMAF, the Select II was showcasing its new MQA capabilities to very good effect.  I will discuss MQA in a later post as I have much to say about it having witnessed the mobs at the MQA booth but what I will say is that with the Select II, MQA resulted in a clear improvement in terms of you guessed it -- better clarity of detail and depth.  In a nutshell, MQA attempts to achieve exactly the same things as the M-scaler, to bring you closer to the performance.  Does it do it better than DAVE or the M-scaler?  I think you might already know the answer to that.
  
 Here are a few observations that are not new to me but have become glaringly more apparent with each show that I attend.  In just about every room that was playing digital, the music that was playing was your typical audiophile fare that always sounds good in any well-implemented system but also very easy for even a $100 AudioQuest Dragonfly DAC to portray.  In fact, I heard just such a presentation with a Dragonfly DAC in the AudioQuest room that sounded as good as many of these rooms.  That's right, soundtracks with lots of synthesized bass, solo studio vocals from the likes of Diana Krall, Rebecca Pidgeon or Steely Dan but rarely do I hear anyone playing unamplified orchestral music.  
  
 In the past year, I have sat in the MSB room at 4 different audio shows and have always enjoyed the selections that Vince Galbo has queued up.  He obviously chooses music that the Select II portrays well but I always found it curious that he never played classical music.  This year, as the room was nearly empty and he was open to suggestions, I asked him to play a classical piece and he admitted he had a very limited selection of classical music but agreed to play a piece he had on hand.  It wasn't really a classical piece but more of an orchestral soundtrack but it was very telling.  The presentation was explosively dynamic and the instruments had nice air around them typical of what I would expect from the wonderful dual power bases that power the Select II.  At the same time, while there was this nice air around the instruments, true depth was lacking, depth that I routinely hear with this type of music with my DAVE and heard in much greater abundance at the Chord room just minutes before.  Moreover, fine details seemed to be missing or else were blurred together.  Instead of an onion with numerous layers of detail that I had heard in the Chord room, it was like an apple with a thick peel and then the core of the fruit.  Plenty of meat but without the juicy succulent layers.  Lacking was the nuance and subtle articulation that I am used to with orchestral music.  The mass of violins had no variation and sounded homogenous.  Furthermore, the attack was more diffuse and the leading edge less incisive, as if a dull knife had been used to make the cut.  Others may disagree, but speed is not the strength of this DAC.
  
 As I reviewed my notes of how my DAVE directly compared against the newly revised Nagra HD and the dCS Vivaldi some months ago, I realized the differences were the same:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/5160#post_12940576
  
 However, having just experienced DAVE + Blu 2 prior to coming to the MSB room, it seemed the contrast with the Select II was considerably greater.  For someone who routinely finds great engagement with orchestral music with their DAVE, this was not engaging at all and so I can imagine this could be a reason why MSB (or anyone else) doesn't routinely play orchestral music -- it just doesn't sound convincing in their systems.  Of course, there's also the possibility these people don't enjoy classical music but not to have it on tap is unusual to me considering many audiophiles love classical music.
  
 Here is another perspective I would like to offer.  I have become very friendly with my local Audio Note UK dealer.  He is a true lover of music which I appreciate and so we have had many wonderful discussions about music and have spent hours in his shop listening to vinyl spinning in his system.  Before I bought my Omega Alnicos, I had strongly considered buying a pair of his wonderful Audio Note speakers although as the Audio Note Alnicos start at $30k, this was not a purchase decision one takes lightly.  I also looked at the Audio Note DAC that he had on hand (the 2.1 Signature).  This DAC sounded pleasant enough in his system comprised of a pair of Audio Note 300B tube amps although it paled in comparison to his vinyl setup.  In his opinion, "nothing compares to vinyl" although he has never heard my DAVE.  Nonetheless, he once tried to sell me an Audio Note DAC stating it was the best digital he had ever heard even though it couldn't compare to his vinyl setup but one thing in particular that he told me was very telling:  "Audio Note DACs never measure well but they sound great."  This told me all I needed to know, that he preferred the sound of distortion and I believe many people do, even if it is even-order distortion.  This suggests that the digital converter is so bad that it needs to be softened and sweetened somehow through the analog output stage.  It's why people with off the shelf silicon DACs oversample to DSD, because DSD sounds smoother and less edgy.  Even though DSD lacks detail, to lose this detail is better than to deal with the substrate noise that is inherent to chip DACS.  
  
 Having owned a very fine TotalDac d1- monobloc, I find NOS DACs like the Nagra and most resistance ladder DACs much more to my liking than any chip DACs I have thus far heard.  They are indeed smoother and less "digital" sounding than chip DACs but I admit now that it is a distortion that I favor with NOS DACs.  The problem with enjoying distortion is while pleasing on some level, there are limits to how real and engaging this can ever sound and you don't realize it until you hear something like the DAVE.  With NOS specifically, there is the other problem of low ambition.  The NOS concept aspires only to translate the original digital signal as best as it can.  Rob, as we know, aspires to a much higher goal as he has been very clear that his goal has always been to reproduce the original analog waveform and this is simply not possible without oversampling and so it is ironic that people equate NOS to analog when it has no real intentions of truly being analog.
  
 As far as the M-scaler impacting the DAVE's tonality, I didn't get that sense at all.  If you are looking for a true analog sound, then M-scaler + DAVE is as close as you will get with its million taps but if you are looking for a certain warmth or bloom that is missing from your system, I believe this balance is best achieved through your analog components and not your digital components (ie warmer headphones/speakers, warmer copper or gold-infused cables, a First Watt JFET amp or 2A3 tube amp, etc).  In truth, a DAC is also an analog component and you could pair the Blu 2 with something like the Nagra HD with its tube output stage to achieve a warmer signature but having compared this DAC directly against the DAVE, this warmer tonality comes at a significant price of resolution.


----------



## adyc

It is funny tho hear John saying that the current "Download" Generation missing the physical CDs. We should pass the physical CDs to these generations. I respect his opinion but I want to say

First, it is easier to pass a single 8TB hard disk than several thousands CDs.

Second, CDs are poor choice of physical medium storage. CDs do not last for a lifetime. My 20 years old CDs are full of holes. The weather and handling have started eating away the silver coating. As far as I know, no one will choose to store critical information on silver discs. LP and magnetic tapes are better storage medium than CDs. Luckily, I have completed the ripping of my cd collection long time ago.


----------



## x RELIC x

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






romaz said:


> Thanks, Fredrik.
> 
> I am home now (I arrived late last night and it's been tough to report back until now).  It was probably the best CES in recent memory with lots to see and hear.  The Chord room and the time spent with Rob and John were easily the highlight.  Thank you both!  Just the most gracious hosts!
> 
> ...






Downright dangerous post Roy. Thank you for your impressions.


----------



## romaz

esimms86 said:


> Looking for a little clarification here. Chord's product announcement for the Blu mkII says that it uses 1 million taps. It doesn't say 1 million in conjunction with Dave and 500,000 when connected to other DACs, nor does it say 500,000 when playing a red book CD without a standalone DAC. If Romaz's analysis is correct then the product announcement is confusing at best. All this leads me to wonder how the sound compares when a CD is played on the Blu mkII with and without Dave.
> 
> Also, if Davina will potentially be available by summer then the wait time between the Blu mkII and Davina may be as short as 5-6 months. As much as we all want to enjoy the sound of 1 million taps in our own homes, £7,995 product is not an impulse buy. And if you wait you can spend 150 USD on music instead of spending it on an Audiophileo device.
> 
> ...


 
 Esau, at 705/768 kHz, 1 million TAPS is possible but only connected to DAVE via the dual DX inputs can this bandwidth be achieved.  With any other DAC connected by conventional means, the best bandwidth you can get is 352/384 kHz which is only half as good.  This equates to about 500,000 TAPS and this information comes from Rob himself.
  
 As to when Davina will actually be ready, according to Rob, it would be anyone's guess and may not be ready by this time next year.  Davina was always more of a proof of concept and was designed to answer some important questions for Rob.  Its creation didn't stem from industry demand as has been suggested nor does he really care if it reaches critical mass but I know that it is important for him to get it right and as this is somewhat uncharted territory for him, there are some unknowns.
  
 I find Blu to be just as ironic a product as Davina as there are some who will buy the Blu with no real intention of spinning CDs.  While I could certainly benefit from the Davina's ADC, I find the option of being able to spin an occasional CD that a friend brings over to have a bit more appeal.
  
 Having actually placed my order for a Blu Mk 2 with the U.S. Chord distributor while at CES, I can tell you that both silver and black are options.


----------



## Rob Watts

adyc said:


> It is funny tho hear John saying that the current "Download" Generation missing the physical CDs. We should pass the physical CDs to these generations. I respect his opinion but I want to say
> 
> First, it is easier to pass a single 8TB hard disk than several thousands CDs.
> 
> Second, CDs are poor choice of physical medium storage. CDs do not last for a lifetime. My 20 years old CDs are full of holes. The weather and handling have started eating away the silver coating. As far as I know, no one will choose to store critical information on silver discs. LP and magnetic tapes are better storage medium than CDs. Luckily, I have completed the ripping of my cd collection long time ago.


 
 That's my view too - my music just went up from a 4TB to 5TB portable hard drive. I buy lots of CD's, but they all get ripped.
  
 So why was the Blu the first product to have an M scaler? It's because Chord still make the Blu (it's very popular in China) and it absolutely needed to be upgraded ASAP as Dave had a longer tap length than Blu 1. So although only a very limited number are currently sold, I felt obligated to do it -  and the design effort would be used with Davina, and I gave it a BNC input so I could actually use it myself. Indeed, I am listening at the moment in my hotel room with a blu PCB and my Dave. So now I have to drag two units around with me on my travels....
  
 Rob


----------



## jelt2359

> I have already looked into that, and its possible that eliminating the ADC won't actually make a great deal of difference. The majority of the BOM cost is metalwork, FPGA, PCB and power supply. The ADC savings (analogue integrators and pulse array) is actually quite small and would probably be outweighed by the costs of producing two products.


 
  
 Would this mean that the Davina would be cheaper than the Blu MK2? I can't imagine that it is cheap to make a good CD Player- vibration control and so on probably adds quite a bit to the cost.


----------



## romaz

jelt2359 said:


> Would this mean that the Davina would be cheaper than the Blu MK2? I can't imagine that it is cheap to make a good CD Player- vibration control and so on probably adds quite a bit to the cost.


 
 I believe Blu 2 and Davina are supposed to cost the same.


----------



## Sonic77

romaz said:


> I believe Blu 2 and Davina are supposed to cost the same.


 

 What does the Blu 2 cost? if I may ask.


----------



## romaz

sonic77 said:


> What does the Blu 2 cost? if I may ask.


 
 £7,995 GBP.  I can't tell you yet my U.S. price since I haven't received the bill.


----------



## Sonic77

romaz said:


> £7,995 GBP.  I can't tell you yet my U.S. price since I haven't received the bill.


 

 Ok thanks. I think I'm going to wait until they get an actual price in US dollars and hopefully they will have them in black, last time for the Dave, I had to wait a little for the black model . Plus my Chord dealer wants 50% down to order.


----------



## Christer

rob watts said:


> That's my view too - my music just went up from a 4TB to 5TB portable hard drive. I buy lots of CD's, but they all get ripped.
> 
> So why was the Blu the first product to have an M scaler? It's because Chord still make the Blu (it's very popular in China) and it absolutely needed to be upgraded ASAP as Dave had a longer tap length than Blu 1. So although only a very limited number are currently sold, I felt obligated to do it -  and the design effort would be used with Davina, and I gave it a BNC input so I could actually use it myself. Indeed, I am listening at the moment in my hotel room with a blu PCB and my Dave. So now I have to drag two units around with me on my travels....
> 
> Rob


 

 And what about HUGO 2?
 Don´t you carry one of those too on your travels?
 I for one most certainly will asap, if it really is so much better than HUGO as indicated by your presentation at HES.
 When will HUGO 2 be available for audition/sale in  South  East Asia?


----------



## Rob Watts

christer said:


> rob watts said:
> 
> 
> > That's my view too - my music just went up from a 4TB to 5TB portable hard drive. I buy lots of CD's, but they all get ripped.
> ...


 
 Absolutely - Hugo 2 on planes, Dave and M scaler in hotels.
  
 Chord should be shipping late Feb, early March. I will be at Singapore CanJam showing Hugo 2.
  
 Rob


----------



## WoSoLoo

Hi Rob Watts, 
 I have a question about connection of steamer-blu2-dave, It is Steamer - usb/bnc convertor - blu2 - dual bnc - dave ?
 Does blu2 accept both pcm and dsd signal from steamer?
 Danny


----------



## AndrewOld

romaz said:


> I believe Blu 2 and Davina are supposed to cost the same.


 

 Why should they cost the same? Rob has recently said that:
  


rob watts said:


> I have already looked into that, and its possible that eliminating the ADC won't actually make a great deal of difference. The majority of the BOM cost is metalwork, FPGA, PCB and power supply. The ADC savings (analogue integrators and pulse array) is actually quite small and would probably be outweighed by the costs of producing two products.
> 
> I want as many people as possible to enjoy the benefits of M scaler tech, so we are trying our best to reduce costs.
> 
> Rob


 
  
  
 in which case the Davina should be substantially less. It won't need the expensive casework of the Blu2 since there will be no fancy hinged lid or cd compartment, it won't have a cd mechanism and associated logic, which I reckon means that a stand-alone M Scaler should be a lot cheaper than the Blu 2. So if adding an ADC to the M Scaler "won't actually make a great deal of difference" then I would have thought that the Davina should cost significantly less than the Blu 2.


----------



## Hubert H

As to those that want the Dave/Davina combo to sound more like other DACs there is an easy solution, buy the Dave/Davina and add the pre-requisite distortion, timing errors et cetera. If one is starting with the complete reproduction of the original analogue waveform, it can be adjusted to fit whatever one's tastes are.
  
 I've always held the belief that there's only one correct interpretation of the original signal and now, thanks to Rob and Chord, we may have that interpretation.
  
 I suppose the test is, in a similar vein as Rob's Davina decimation test, can the D/D combo be made the sound like any other DAC and if so, can any other DAC be made to sound like the D/D? I think we know the answers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 H.


----------



## Christer

rob watts said:


> Absolutely - Hugo 2 on planes, Dave and M scaler in hotels.
> 
> Chord should be shipping late Feb, early March. I will be at Singapore CanJam showing Hugo 2.
> 
> Rob


 

 Interesting to hear but I will probably be on a  flight to Colombo Sri Lanka on the 4th of February.
 Hopefully there will be HUGO2s available for sale  in Singapore or KL before that date.
 Or if not, at least when I get back again from Colombo at the end of February.
 What about Bangkok? Are there any Chord reps there at all?


----------



## miketlse

christer said:


> Interesting to hear but I will probably be on a  flight to Colombo Sri Lanka on the 4th of February.
> Hopefully there will be HUGO2s available for sale  in Singapore or KL before that date.
> Or if not, at least when I get back again from Colombo at the end of February.
> What about Bangkok? Are there any Chord reps there at all?


 
  
 I think that the Chord statements, for the new products, have been small levels of production in Feb, ramping up to full production rates in March.
 This aligns with Robs statement - if the initial production starts during Feb, then they will have the first units available for shipping, at the end of Feb or start of March.
  
 Based on this, I think it will be unlikely that any dealers anywhere, will have units in their stores before the start of March. So if you want to demo the units, you probably only have the opportunity at trade shows or canjams. I am sure that many dealers will accept pre-orders, but you will be buying 'unheard'.


----------



## Christer

miketlse said:


> I think that the Chord statements, for the new products, have been small levels of production in Feb, ramping up to full production rates in March.
> This aligns with Robs statement - if the initial production starts during Feb, then they will have the first units available for shipping, at the end of Feb or start of March.
> 
> Based on this, I think it will be unlikely that any dealers anywhere, will have units in their stores before the start of March. So if you want to demo the units, you probably only have the opportunity at trade shows or canjams. I am sure that many dealers will accept pre-orders, but you will be buying 'unheard'.


 

 I would not buy "unheard ".
 I trust only my own ears/brain when it comes to how close any piece of equipment comes to the holy grail live acoustic music.Nor are trade shows/canjams  really any  good for anything more than meeting people and seeing new products imho.
 They are noisy and tend to play only crap music  anyway.
 Well, well something similar happened when HUGO was released. I was able to audition one in Singapore in March that year. But they had no units for sale until much later so I bought my HUGO back home in Sweden in May that year.
 But I must admit that I am very curious to hear how HUGO 2 performs with  my hi res classical reference files.
 If it delivers as promised I will sell both HUGO and my Benchmark DAC2 asap and possibly get a HUGO 2 without having to pay any cash at all. 
  Yours  sincerely Mr Cheap.
  PS. Who by the way would  never ever buy a cd only  capable disc  player ever again. CDs are distant  history as far as I am concerned.


----------



## Rob Watts

wosoloo said:


> Hi Rob Watts,
> I have a question about connection of steamer-blu2-dave, It is Steamer - usb/bnc convertor - blu2 - dual bnc - dave ?
> Does blu2 accept both pcm and dsd signal from steamer?
> Danny


 
 Yes it will accept DoP DSD64 and DSD128 but no more as the SPDIF is limited to 384 kHz.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

andrewold said:


> romaz said:
> 
> 
> > I believe Blu 2 and Davina are supposed to cost the same.
> ...


 
 We don't know for sure what Davina will cost at all at this stage, as no BOM costing has been done. I would not like to suggest a price and then see people disappointed, as it will be what it will be. Now I can't comment on Chord's behalf - they set the price - but I can say I will do everything I can to make M scaler technology available to as many people as possible, as I think the M scaler will prove to have immense importance.
  
 Rob


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Rob
  
 Many thanks and congratulations on the 1 million achievement! I really want an M scaler for my DAVE... but sadly the Blu 2 is no option, and the upcoming Davina won't be either most likely. The 10 ampère figure is insane. I know it was inevitable and it's not your fault, but I hope some future processor developments will enable 1.4 million taps with just 3.2 ampère current consumption. My ears will be quite a bit older then, so it's questionable if I will be able to benefit from the progress at all, unfortunately.
  
 There's one thing I wanted to ask you since quite a while: As I understand it, the high tap rate of the WTA filter primarily serves for low sampling rates like 44.1 and 48 kHz. Am I right? What is the benefit from the WTA filter at higher sampling rates, say 192 kHz? Is there any at all? I would think 192 kHz and 384 kHz at the latest could do very well without any low-pass filtering, at least in the sense of «signal reconstruction».


----------



## AndrewOld

rob watts said:


> We don't know for sure what Davina will cost at all at this stage, as no BOM costing has been done. I would not like to suggest a price and then see people disappointed, as it will be what it will be. Now I can't comment on Chord's behalf - they set the price - but I can say I will do everything I can to make M scaler technology available to as many people as possible, as I think the M scaler will prove to have immense importance.
> 
> Rob





Fantastic Rob, thank you very much.


----------



## Hubert H

jazz said:


> Hi Rob
> 
> The 10 ampère figure is insane


 
  
 That's at 1V not 230V, Think Rob said 30W for the unit.
  
 I think that's correct


----------



## JaZZ

hubert h said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Rob
> ...


 
  
 Really? That would be a great relief. I hope Rob will confirm it.


----------



## Hubert H

I don't if this has been seen before but I believe it is Rob's first FPGA DAC, the DPA SX512 (pic courtesy of http://www.acoustica.org.uk/DPA/deltec.html). There's a really good list of DPA products on that link as well as interviews with Rob and a technical paper for the SX512.


----------



## Hubert H

I'm the same, I hate using too much power and 2.5kW would be a step too far regardless of the improvement


----------



## Hubert H

jazz said:


> Really? That would be a great relief. I hope Rob will confirm it.


 

  Sorry JaZZ, it was from the @romaz post a couple of days ago, info from Rob - http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/6555#post_13150786
  
 I must have imagined 30W total...


----------



## JaZZ

Well, as long as the number is passably adequate... Thank you anyway!


----------



## izzard1982

It's 30W, you can see it on Chord website.


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes all file formats benefit from WTA filtering, and 44.1 to 384 kHz all have exactly the same amount of processing irrespective of sample rate. Of course, the filter is used differently with 48k and 96k - they run in different modes - but the coefficient bank is the same, and the DSP does exactly the same number of multiply and add, so the output resolution in terms of timing accuracy is identical. Later I will formally try to do some listening tests on different resolution sources and feedback on the results. My superficial impression is that older redbook recordings seem to benefit more - some of the problems from 1960's Decca for example are very much reduced.
  
 Yes the 10A peak is at 1V so we are looking at only 10W maximum. What I have always done is to have the core regulator as close as possible to the FPGA, so it is normally mounted directly underneath the FPGA. This means that the PSU inductor and ground loop is kept as small as possible. This means the conversion of noisy signal correlated 10A/1V to clean 2A/5V is constrained to as small an area as possible, so we have the least possible signal correlated noise on the ground plane, which would then upset the pulse array elements. When I used to use linear regulators, I had measured problems due to this, and each place and route on the FPGA would measure and sound different. But since using switchers, and controlling the current loops, I think I have pretty much solved this issue - at least with Mojo/Hugo/Dave as I now see no measurement problems or differences in sound quality with differing place and route. Here is one example of supposedly nasty switching regulators sounding and measuring very much better than linear regulators.
  
 The first version of Blu 2 had 6A regulators, and this was with the 512,000 taps. But using the first 1,000,000 taps design meant the regulator collapsed, so it would not work. Now I had expected this, and a 12A regulator version was already being built and arrived soon after the completion o the 1M design.
  
 Rob


----------



## romaz

Just to offer some perspective on the high perceived price of Blu Mk 2 and it's M-scaler, here are some competing prices from other products:
  
 Esoteric P-02X SACD/CD Transport (no DAC.  This is the latest model that was just released.  Yes, this also does SACD but it has no scaler) - $23,000  
  
 dCS Upsampler 2.0 (upsamples to 2x DSD or 24/352.8.  Also has ethernet input and can stream Tidal or Spotify.  Does not include a CD transport at this price) - $22,000
  
 Blu Mk 2 incorporates both with a scaler that performs well beyond the capability of the dCS scaler for under $10k USD.  I think Chord has produced a product that easily overachieves at its price point.  Considering MSB's DACs are at about 6,000 TAPS, I'm sure some MSB owners are looking at Blu Mk 2 as the steal of the century given that MSB charges $11,500 for their own Signature CD transport with power base which doesn't include a scaler.  Considering the step upgrade that I heard from DAVE to 1 million taps is greater than what I heard from Hugo to DAVE, I believe the price is very fair.


----------



## Mython

romaz said:


> Just to offer some perspective on the high perceived price of Blu Mk 2 and it's M-scaler, here are some competing prices from other products:
> 
> Esoteric P-02X SACD/CD Transport (no DAC.  This is the latest model that was just released.  Yes, this also does SACD but it has no scaler) - $23,000
> 
> ...


 
  
 Even though Blu & DAVE are currently way out of my price bracket, I am nonetheless inclined to agree with you, Romaz; _everything is, indeed, relative._


----------



## m0nster

@Jazz I remember that you live in Switzerland too. Do you know where I could get Chord stands for the Dave?
  
 Since there may be a 2nd Chord product on its way in the foreseeable future the stand would look pretty nice... Help would be appreciated


----------



## miko64

Try k55.ch they are extremely helpful
  
 Michael


----------



## m0nster

miko64 said:


> Try k55.ch they are extremely helpful
> 
> Michael


 
 Even more people from Switzerland - sweet! 
  
 Thank you for your help. I haven't found in on the homepage of k55.ch, but I could ask them by e-mail.
  
 Michael too


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## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> *Yes all file formats benefit from WTA filtering, and 44.1 to 384 kHz all have exactly the same amount of processing irrespective of sample rate. Of course, the filter is used differently with 48k and 96k - they run in different modes - but the coefficient bank is the same, and the DSP does exactly the same number of multiply and add, so the output resolution in terms of timing accuracy is identical.* Later I will formally try to do some listening tests on different resolution sources and feedback on the results. My superficial impression is that older redbook recordings seem to benefit more - some of the problems from 1960's Decca for example are very much reduced.
> 
> Yes the 10A peak is at 1V so we are looking at only 10W maximum. What I have always done is to have the core regulator as close as possible to the FPGA, so it is normally mounted directly underneath the FPGA. This means that the PSU inductor and ground loop is kept as small as possible. This means the conversion of noisy signal correlated 10A/1V to clean 2A/5V is constrained to as small an area as possible, so we have the least possible signal correlated noise on the ground plane, which would then upset the pulse array elements. When I used to use linear regulators, I had measured problems due to this, and each place and route on the FPGA would measure and sound different. But since using switchers, and controlling the current loops, I think I have pretty much solved this issue - at least with Mojo/Hugo/Dave as I now see no measurement problems or differences in sound quality with differing place and route. Here is one example of supposedly nasty switching regulators sounding and measuring very much better than linear regulators.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Now I am curious! In what way do 192 or 384 kHz recordings benefit from low-pass filtering with the sophisticated interpolation algorithm of the WTA filter? Or any low-pass filtering at all? I mean, the signal curve seems virtually perfect for the audio bandwidth even without it, apart from dispensable ultra-high-frequency noise from the sampling frequency which could be removed by simple analogue filters...


----------



## JaZZ

m0nster said:


> @Jazz I remember that you live in Switzerland too. Do you know where I could get Chord stands for the Dave?
> 
> Since there may be a 2nd Chord product on its way in the foreseeable future the stand would look pretty nice... Help would be appreciated


 
  
 Yes, as mentioned by Michael  *K55* (my preferred audio dealer) would be the place, or the Swiss distributor directly.


----------



## Rob Watts

jazz said:


> rob watts said:
> 
> 
> > *Yes all file formats benefit from WTA filtering, and 44.1 to 384 kHz all have exactly the same amount of processing irrespective of sample rate. Of course, the filter is used differently with 48k and 96k - they run in different modes - but the coefficient bank is the same, and the DSP does exactly the same number of multiply and add, so the output resolution in terms of timing accuracy is identical.* Later I will formally try to do some listening tests on different resolution sources and feedback on the results. My superficial impression is that older redbook recordings seem to benefit more - some of the problems from 1960's Decca for example are very much reduced.
> ...


 
  
 OK just to illustrate. Before Dave, I used to WTA filter to 16FS (768 kHz) and then use third order IIR filters to get me to 2048FS or 104 MHz. As part of the Dave program, I then partially replaced the the IIR filters with a 16FS to 256FS WTA FIR filter, and it sounded dramatically better - particularly in the ability to perceive the starting and stopping of notes. but if you look at the actual difference in timing accuracy between a 16>256FS WTA> 3rd order IIR>2048 FS path and a 16> 3rd order IIR>2048 FS path we are talking about very small differences indeed - but it is so very audible. I used to think 1uS errors would be inaudible, now I take the view that any timing error (where a transient is slightly earlier or later against the rest of the signal) of any size, no matter how small, is important. This sensitivity is very, very strange, but it clearly exists.
  
 Now when people get their hands on the Hugo 2, you can try for yourself. As the white to orange filter, or the green to red filter settings selects the 256FS filter (white is 256FS WTA, orange is 16FS WTA), so people will be able to hear for themselves. And for me it is not a small change in SQ.
  
 So in the case of 256FS we can say that to 88 nS resolution, we have close to ideal sinc recovery of the original timing. But a 384 kHz signal innately only has a poor 2.6 uS timing resolution, so you can see if 88 nS is important, then 2.6 us will be grossly audible. That's why 384 kHz recordings do indeed benefit from the WTA filters ability to reconstruct timing down to a resolution of 88 nS.
  
 Remember that to perfectly reconstruct the missing bits from one sample to the next sample one must use a infinite oversampling sinc function FIR filter. If you do not do this, the output timing of transients will be incorrect - what the surprise is is how sensitive the ear brain is to these errors. I wonder too how much further we need to go in timing resolution and accuracy before the brain can no longer perceive the difference.
  
 Hope this clarifies, but it is a complex subject.
  
 Rob


----------



## Crgreen

You should work as a salesman for Chord. I feel bound to point out that just because other, possibly lesser, products cost more does not necessarily mean that any of them respeesent value for money.


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks a lot, Rob! That explains it for me. But it's indeed incredible that even 384 kHz recordings benefit from a careful interpolation algorithm for filtering quantization noise and preserving timing (= transient) accuracy. However, I take it that low sampling rates will benefit clearly more – up to equal sound quality, if I interpret some of your previous statements correctly, at least with tap counts approaching infinite numbers enough for sensitive human ears. Do you think the million taps are already enough to make 44.1 kHz recordings virtually indistinguishable from 192 or 384 kHz recordings?


----------



## Rob Watts

No I don't think 384/24 is indistinguishable with 48/24 or  certainly not 44.1/16 - but my feeling is that the standard is much less important than the recording method, so in that sense M scaler is a great equalizer - although this was true with Dave too, certainly with the ability to enjoy older recordings. For example, Decca recordings from 1960 to pre dolby 1967 redbook recordings do things that modern 192/24 kHz recordings are incapable of doing - notably being able to record speed and impact of real instruments. Modern recordings are smooth and refined but seem incapable of reproducing timbre variations and raw impact like the classic 1960's recordings. So simple microphone and short signal paths with sound optimized custom built mixers and amps are more important than 44.1 or 192. That said, my older recosrdings benefit much more from M scaler - which is what one would expect.
  
 Future recordings with Davina will allow us to evaluate exactly what the losses are in sample rate and reconstruction. With the tremendous change M scaler offers clearly the next question is how much further can we take this, and Davina will tell us exactly how close 1M taps to ideal actually is.
  
 Rob


----------



## romaz

crgreen said:


> You should work as a salesman for Chord.



 
 The price is indeed high and so this is how I had to look at it to justify this purchase for myself. 





crgreen said:


> I feel bound to point out that just because other, possibly lesser, products cost more does not necessarily mean that any of them respeesent value for money.



 
 You are absolutely correct but imagine what would happen if Blu Mk 2 was half the price. A much cheaper non-Chord DAC could potentially reach or exceed DAVE's performance for half the price of DAVE which would be quite upsetting for DAVE owners who have no plans to upgrade. I believe there is a balance here that must be respected for Chord not to upset its customers. As all things go, eventually, with time and advancement of technology, 1 million taps will likely one day trickle down to a Mojo-type device at Mojo-type pricing and Hugo 2 is a good example of that progression and so for those that are willing to wait, I'm sure that Chord will one day deliver. What is exciting for me is to see how quickly technology is advancing, not just for Chord but for other brands as well and so it is the consumer that wins here. Rob had previously shared with me that when he first idealized the concept of 1 million TAPS while at university years ago, FPGAs didn't even exist and so 1 million TAPS had always been more of an idealized concept rather than a practical thought. To actually have achieved 1 million TAPS is not only a momentous occasion for Rob, I'm sure, but really a momentous occasion for all of us who have embraced digital as our preferred medium. As the old guard who will continue to cling to their turntables for sentimental reasons die off, I can't see analog media as having any real reason to exist in the future.


----------



## Silvertone4

Rob, (or anyone that attended the CES demos)

Are there improvements or differences in the bass region of Blu 2 vs Dave that can be attributed to the 1M taps?

Thanks in advance


----------



## Rob Watts

Actually my position in the early 1980's was that we needed 16 bit sinc accuracy, and hence a million taps before digital would sound perfect, or close to perfect. And that it would be completely and utterly impossible to ever get to a million taps. So I was very, very wrong about the latter - but - and here is the fun part - given how much better the M scaler sounds - my intuition that 1M taps was essential for good digital sound has turned out right.
  
 Rob


----------



## romaz

silvertone4 said:


> Rob, (or anyone that attended the CES demos)
> 
> Are there improvements or differences in the bass region of Blu 2 vs Dave that can be attributed to the 1M taps?
> 
> Thanks in advance


 
 Yes, it was quite evident.  Going from no M-scaler to 1 million TAPS, the bass was noticeably more thunderous.  This was one of the things that was immediately identifiable.


----------



## lovethatsound

I don't have a problem with how much the blu mk2 costs,I don't have a problem with Rob Watts,but at the moment i have got a problem with Chord.That problem being i was told the original blu would be able to be upgraded to the new spec . I've looked at the blu mk2 on the chord website,and basically it looks more or less the same,even at the back,and i can see No reason why the original blu can not be upgraded.I really think Chord should look at this issue again and make good on what they have said.☺


----------



## Silvertone4

romaz said:


> Yes, it was quite evident.  Going from no M-scaler to 1 million TAPS, the bass was noticeably more thunderous.  This was one of the things that was immediately identifiable.




Thanks, Romaz.

Does Blu 2 have analog outputs ? Or is it only a transport? Does it have an USB input?

I wonder if someone could post any videos of the demos... 

Oscar


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> No I don't think 384/24 is indistinguishable with 48/24 or  certainly not 44.1/16 - but my feeling is that the standard is much less important than the recording method, so in that sense M scaler is a great equalizer - although this was true with Dave too, certainly with the ability to enjoy older recordings. For example, Decca recordings from 1960 to pre dolby 1967 redbook recordings do things that modern 192/24 kHz recordings are incapable of doing - notably being able to record speed and impact of real instruments. Modern recordings are smooth and refined but seem incapable of reproducing timbre variations and raw impact like the classic 1960's recordings. So simple microphone and short signal paths with sound optimized custom built mixers and amps are more important than 44.1 or 192. That said, my older recosrdings benefit much more from M scaler - which is what one would expect.
> 
> Future recordings with Davina will allow us to evaluate exactly what the losses are in sample rate and reconstruction. With the tremendous change M scaler offers clearly the next question is how much further can we take this, and Davina will tell us exactly how close 1M taps to ideal actually is.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Given that the Nyquist Shannon theorem postulates a perfect resonstruction of a signal limited to a bandwidth of 22.05 kHz with a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz (with an infinitely sharp low-pass filter at half the sampling frequency), what exactly is it that makes hi-res recordings still sound more true to the live event? Under this premise I would expect a close enough approach to the infinite tap count to make 44.1 kHz equally good. Now the precondition of a bandwidth limitation before A/D conversion could be the remaining culprit – maybe a case for Davina. Or is there anything else that makes higher sampling rates sound better in any event?


----------



## PhiQuanTu

Hello - I finally got a Dave on its way to my home this week. One question I would like to ask regarding headphones output. Is it true that Chord/Rob recommend us to use the 1/4" output instead of the XLR outputs in the back?

Thanks


----------



## lovethatsound

phiquantu said:


> Hello - I finally got a Dave on its way to my home this week. One question I would like to ask regarding headphones output. Is it true that Chord/Rob recommend us to use the 1/4" output instead of the XLR outputs in the back?
> 
> Thanks


only use 1/4 output,enjoy your dave☺


----------



## PhiQuanTu

lovethatsound said:


> only use 1/4 output,enjoy your dave☺




Thank you!


----------



## Hubert H

Is it the case where the detail of the analogue waveform is limited by the sampling frequency?
  
 So the final product is a representation of the 44.1kHz sampling of the original signal, more details on higher sampling rates.
  
 I'm working this the other way, if one was to sample at 1Hz and decoded with infinte taps or whatever, it would also imply the generation of the same waveform which obviously it can't do.
  
 Could be wrong though...


----------



## JaZZ

The precondition is a bandwidth of the analogue signal of half the sampling rate at the utmost.


----------



## Jawed

rob watts said:


> OK just to illustrate. Before Dave, I used to WTA filter to 16FS (768 kHz) and then use third order IIR filters to get me to 2048FS or 104 MHz. As part of the Dave program, I then partially replaced the the IIR filters with a 16FS to 256FS WTA FIR filter, and it sounded dramatically better - particularly in the ability to perceive the starting and stopping of notes. but if you look at the actual difference in timing accuracy between a 16>256FS WTA> 3rd order IIR>2048 FS path and a 16> 3rd order IIR>2048 FS path we are talking about very small differences indeed - but it is so very audible. I used to think 1uS errors would be inaudible, now I take the view that any timing error (where a transient is slightly earlier or later against the rest of the signal) of any size, no matter how small, is important. This sensitivity is very, very strange, but it clearly exists.



So, with Blu 2, DAVE's FPGA DSP cores are mostly idle. 160 DSP cores are now doing nothing, which is pretty much all of them, with only a few cores for digital volume, crossfeed and 16x -> 256x WTA.

This seems pretty sad.

If DAVE were designed now, I wonder if more cores could be used in the second WTA stage to 256x FS? A mode for when Blu 2 was providing input? Or instead of WTA to 256x, a higher multiple such as 1024x or even 2048x?

Or, perhaps, DAVE's noise shaper would be able to switch into a different mode: with greater than 350dB resolution.

It seems a shame that DAVE is incapable of taking advantage of all the freed-up FPGA resource when fed by Blu 2.

Now playing: A.M.P. Studio - 32 Paths Virtually


----------



## oscarnr

Hello!
Will Davina have USB input to connect directly a server, computer, or it will be similar to Blu MKII (with only a BNC input)? I like the minimalist approach of my DAVE connected to power amp, and I would not like to add more boxes and cables (including the added price of all)
Oscar


----------



## Jawed

oscarnr said:


> Hello!
> Will Davina have USB input to connect directly a server, computer, or it will be similar to Blu MKII (with only a BNC input)? I like the minimalist approach of my DAVE connected to power amp, and I would not like to add more boxes and cables (including the added price of all)



Davina is planned to have a USB port that can act as an input in a streaming setup. But the output will be via BNC terminated coaxial cables into DAVE.

I think it's a real shame not to have a USB output too for this configuration. USB is supposed to have an advantage in controlling the clocking of data from the source component (streamer, computer). Arguably Davina should not need to be clocked by DAVE, though. So that "advantage" would be moot in this configuration.

So, it's a complete puzzle to me why Davina wouldn't deliver data to DAVE via USB. Perhaps Rob gets the best control over RFI when he's able to implement BNC interfaces at both ends of a connection? But, bear in mind, that the galvanic isolation in DAVE's USB was once thought to be so good that it wouldn't be possible to improve the quality of DAVE by using a high-quality USB configuration...

Now playing: Valerie Tryon - Ignaz Friedman, Vol. 1: Transcriptions & Original Compositions


----------



## oscarnr

jawed said:


> Davina is planned to have a USB port that can act as an input in a streaming setup. But the output will be via BNC terminated coaxial cables into DAVE.
> 
> I think it's a real shame not to have a USB output too for this configuration. USB is supposed to have an advantage in controlling the clocking of data from the source component (streamer, computer). Arguably Davina should not need to be clocked by DAVE, though. So that "advantage" would be moot in this configuration.
> 
> ...




Thank you! At least no USB to S/PDIF converter would be needed in the input. Less cables, less boxes, less problems


----------



## Rob Watts

The USB port is bi-directional, so it can input any sample rate/32 bits and at the same time output any sample rate/32 bits. USB is galvanically isolated. I suppose that via an appropriate app one could then transmit to Dave via USB. But the BNC outputs are galvanically isolated too so that won't represent a SQ degradation as its the galvanic isolation that makes by far the biggest difference.
  
 Rob


----------



## Crgreen

As a matter of interest, what USB to BNC converter is Rob using for the Blu?


----------



## kennyb123

romaz said:


> As the old guard who will continue to cling to their turntables for sentimental reasons die off, I can't see analog media as having any real reason to exist in the future.


 
  
 Many (all?) analog master tapes from the 60s have degraded over the years.  Vinyl that was pressed from the earliest masters/stampers represent a snapshot of the master tape prior to the degradation.  That can be a pretty good reason for one to want to cling on to their turntable.
  
 I'm too lazy to want to cling to my turntable for sentimental reasons, but unfortunately there are recordings that are better served by analog.  I imagine there would be far less of them were I to own both a DAVINA and DAVE - but at present that combo is priced out of my reach.  So I'm thankful I have a turntable to pick up the slack when digital doesn't quite cut it.
  
 I hope that it's not too long before a million taps trickles down to the Hugo TT's price range.  I would love to have to eat my words.


----------



## Mython

kennyb123 said:


> romaz said:
> 
> 
> > As the old guard who will continue to cling to their turntables for sentimental reasons die off, I can't see analog media as having any real reason to exist in the future.
> ...


 
  
 I don't suppose it would please Chord to hear of it, but it really wouldn't surprise me if a group of die-hard turntable nuts all chipped-in to buy a 'time-share' percentage of a Davina, to 'affordably'  archive their LPs into Hi-Res digital.
  
 I'm not kidding.


----------



## AndrewOld

rob watts said:


> No I don't think 384/24 is indistinguishable with 48/24 or  certainly not 44.1/16 - but my feeling is that the standard is much less important than the recording method, so in that sense M scaler is a great equalizer - although this was true with Dave too, certainly with the ability to enjoy older recordings. For example, Decca recordings from 1960 to pre dolby 1967 redbook recordings do things that modern 192/24 kHz recordings are incapable of doing - notably being able to record speed and impact of real instruments. Modern recordings are smooth and refined but seem incapable of reproducing timbre variations and raw impact like the classic 1960's recordings. So simple microphone and short signal paths with sound optimized custom built mixers and amps are more important than 44.1 or 192. That said, my older recosrdings benefit much more from M scaler - which is what one would expect.
> 
> Future recordings with Davina will allow us to evaluate exactly what the losses are in sample rate and reconstruction. With the tremendous change M scaler offers clearly the next question is how much further can we take this, and Davina will tell us exactly how close 1M taps to ideal actually is.
> 
> Rob




Decca were famous for using an arrangement of microphones which became known as the Decca tree for recordings of that time; the arrangement is still used. Three or sometimes five omni-directional microphones were used arranged in a tree roughly above the conductor.. (So you'll need more than two channels of Davina to record like that!).

Here's an interesting article about the Decca sound with pictures of some of those recording sessions, including Solti, 

http://www.polymathperspective.com/?p=2484

and here's the wiki

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decca_tree


----------



## Crgreen

Since acquiring a DAVE, I have found myself listening less to LPs. I have a decent deck - an SME 20/2A and SMEV arm - and a friend asked me to play Bowie's Blackstar on vinyl and as a 96/24 file through the DAVE. The latter did sound better, but there are probably no reliable general conclusions which can be drawn from this. I suspect the master is the digital file and the LP was taken from that. (By the way, the Bowie - Last Five Years documentary on the BBC broadcast last weekend was very good.)

As for archiving LPs, I've done that with some unavailable in any other format, but it's a slow, rather boring exercise, and to be frank, life's too short. 

The fact is, many will remain attracted to vinyl as its cool and different from what their friends have, quite aside from issues of sound quality. And in many respects, it still represents the benchmark in terms of musicality, it's just that the DAVE has in closed that gap and improved things in some areas. Still finding it difficult to believe that the M-Scaler will improve it even more, but it rather sounds as if provides a substantial improvement.


----------



## Crgreen

The BBC documentary about Solti's recording of Götterdämmerung, available on DVD, is fascinating, and gives you quite an insight into the Decca recording process in Vienna, where some of the best recordings were made, and John Culshaw's involvement. I also recommend his "Ring Respunding" about the recording of the whole Ring cycle, and his autobiography, "Putting the Record Straight".


----------



## miketlse

christer said:


> I would not buy "unheard ".


 
  
 I am not surprised. Your posts reveal that you are passionate about live music, and the quality of the music recording process, so i expected that you would be unlikely to gamble on buying a Hugo 2 unheard.


----------



## oscarnr

rob watts said:


> The USB port is bi-directional, so it can input any sample rate/32 bits and at the same time output any sample rate/32 bits. USB is galvanically isolated. I suppose that via an appropriate app one could then transmit to Dave via USB. But the BNC outputs are galvanically isolated too so that won't represent a SQ degradation as its the galvanic isolation that makes by far the biggest difference.
> 
> Rob




Thank you, Rob. 
So will Davina have 1 or 2 USB ports? If it has one I'll have to output the signal from BNC ports (given I'll use the USB port as input for the music). Anyway, I have no problem with that since it has galvanic isolation.


----------



## Sonic77

I'm going to buy the Blu unheard, I bought the Dave unheard, Rob and Chord make the very best audio equipment why would I doubt them now?


----------



## oscarnr

sonic77 said:


> I'm going to buy the Blu unheard, I bought the Dave unheard, Rob and Chord make the very best audio equipment why would I doubt them now?




I bought it unheard, too. I had previously a Chord Hugo and expected the best, as DAVE confirmed. And I believe that Blu MKII will be a priceless addition. But now I am reluctant to buy a new device (similar price as the Dave -not inexpensive-) that requires an intermediate converter (more money) to fit my use. The CD spinner could be a good addition (I buy a lot of CDs but I rip them all), but not a need. I would prefer the more elegant solution of an USB directly from my Mac to ¿Davina? and from that to DAVE. 
Perhaps I am trying to convince myself that I can wait


----------



## Sonic77

oscarnr said:


> I bought it unheard, too. I had previously a Chord Hugo and expected the best, as DAVE confirmed. And I believe that Blu MKII will be a priceless addition. But now I am reluctant to buy a new device (similar price as the Dave -not inexpensive-) that requires an intermediate converter (more money) to fit my use. The CD spinner could be a good addition (I buy a lot of CDs but I rip them all), but not a need. I would prefer the more elegant solution of an USB directly from my Mac to ¿Davina? and from that to DAVE.
> Perhaps I am trying to convince myself that I can wait



I'll be your guinea pig


----------



## Rob Watts

sonic77 said:


> I'm going to buy the Blu unheard, I bought the Dave unheard, Rob and Chord make the very best audio equipment why would I doubt them now?


 
 Thank-you for your vote of confidence. But you won't be disappointed - I am still getting to grips with how good the M scaler is - and too many people has said its a bigger difference in SQ than Dave. I am trying to understand and comprehend why it is doing what it does, and understanding this intellectually is proving challenging.
  
 Of course we are not listening to an M scaler; I am absolutely convinced that an M scaler on another DAC, would just sound like an ordinary improvement in tap length - not this radical change I and others are appreciating. After all Dave is the only DAC on the planet that can reconstruct timing and reproduce it in the analogue domain to 88 nS accuracy.
  
 The first two demos of M scaler (@romaz) and a respected Japanese reviewer and Dave owner - both ordered a Blu M scaler based on only 2 minutes of AB testing. Now of course both are Dave owners, and so are primed - they know how unusual Dave actually is. What I can't get my head around is why just a sixfold increase in tap length can transform the sound. After all, we are starting at such an elevated level with Dave.
  
 And you know I am listening today, and maybe I am just relaxing after the stress of the show - but today it is sounding just better and better. This version of code I am listening too is new - I fixed a audible bug on Christmas eve - and perhaps brain break-in is playing its role again.
  
 Rob


----------



## JaZZ

Rob, I'm sure it's FPGA code burn-in.


----------



## Mython

> Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
  
 I reckon the sheer speed of m scalers number-crunching has created a torsion field and sent Rob unwittingly through a stargate, into another dimension of perception.
  
There is no other rational explanation.


----------



## Rob Watts

andrewold said:


> rob watts said:
> 
> 
> > No I don't think 384/24 is indistinguishable with 48/24 or  certainly not 44.1/16 - but my feeling is that the standard is much less important than the recording method, so in that sense M scaler is a great equalizer - although this was true with Dave too, certainly with the ability to enjoy older recordings. For example, Decca recordings from 1960 to pre dolby 1967 redbook recordings do things that modern 192/24 kHz recordings are incapable of doing - notably being able to record speed and impact of real instruments. Modern recordings are smooth and refined but seem incapable of reproducing timbre variations and raw impact like the classic 1960's recordings. So simple microphone and short signal paths with sound optimized custom built mixers and amps are more important than 44.1 or 192. That said, my older recosrdings benefit much more from M scaler - which is what one would expect.
> ...


 
 I am sure there is more too it than mic layout. I bought myself a Christmas present of all three volumes of Mercury living presence CD's - about 160 CD's in all. Now some of the recordings sound a bit ropey, but again the 1960 plus ones are great. In particular, the recordings that absolutely stand out are the ones that are recorded using 35mm magnetic film tape - and these bring me out in goosebumps. Now all these recordings share a simple omni directional mic technique - but with the Mercury its the ones that use the 35mm tape that really is extraordinary. Additionally Decca modified their tape machines. Now I suspect it is Decca's tape recorder modifications, and Mercury using 35mm tape that is playing a key role here - its not just mic technique.
  
 One of the issues with analogue tape is bias - now this is a HF tone, normally 50 kHz or greater to linearize the hysteresis. Now bias could be looked at as a simple analogue sampling, and as such would have timing errors on transients too. But you can adjust the amplitude of bias and the frequency and so reduce these timing errors. I wonder if they went for higher frequency bias with different amplitude (tuned by listening tests of course) and unwittingly improved timing errors? Just a thought. 
  
 But for sure, in the 1960's recording engineers were proactive and practical people - they often built their own kit, modified things, and listened carefully. I remember going round Doug Sax Mastering Lab, and it was full of hand made one off kit...
  
 It's a shame that today we have lost that innovation, as pro gear is just too complex. How many people could design their own ADC's from scratch? How many ADC's are designed from the bottom up and actually listened too at every stage? None. People don't listen and experiment when designing silicon... and ADC design from scratch (not using a chip) is not a simple exercise.
  
 Rob


----------



## Sonic77

rob watts said:


> Thank-you for your vote of confidence. But you won't be disappointed - I am still getting to grips with how good the M scaler is - and too many people has said its a bigger difference in SQ than Dave. I am trying to understand and comprehend why it is doing what it does, and understanding this intellectually is proving challenging.
> 
> Of course we are not listening to an M scaler; I am absolutely convinced that an M scaler on another DAC, would just sound like an ordinary improvement in tap length - not this radical change I and others are appreciating. After all Dave is the only DAC on the planet that can reconstruct timing and reproduce it in the analogue domain to 88 nS accuracy.
> 
> ...


 

 ​I'm excited and really looking forward to listening.


----------



## ecwl

I presume Rob Watts hasn't tried Blu Mk II on his home video system. I wonder if it would introduce too much latency for video. DAVE was fine for video viewing for my system.


----------



## Rob Watts

Actually I have had the half M taps since September on my home theatre. With Blu there is a dither switch for CD - but when you are using the SPDIF this switch controls the delay, and there is a video mode which reduces the latency from 0.66 seconds to 100 mS which is fine for projectors and audio delay set to 0.
  
 But over Christmas I discovered a cool feature with JRiver. I play Blu ray discs with JRiver, and you can set the delay up to 2.5 seconds, so the audio is delayed by 2.5 seconds. Then I thought what if it accepted a negative delay? That is delaying the video not the audio? And it works - setting it to -0.56 gave me perfect lip sync! So I can play a blu ray disc with JRiver and the full 1M taps with the M scaler engaged.
  
 Rob


----------



## Jawed

rob watts said:


> Actually I have had the half M taps since September on my home theatre. With Blu there is a dither switch for CD - but when you are using the SPDIF this switch controls the delay, and there is a video mode which reduces the latency from 0.66 seconds to 100 mS which is fine for projectors and audio delay set to 0.
> 
> But over Christmas I discovered a cool feature with JRiver. I play Blu ray discs with JRiver, and you can set the delay up to 2.5 seconds, so the audio is delayed by 2.5 seconds. Then I thought what if it accepted a negative delay? That is delaying the video not the audio? And it works - setting it to -0.56 gave me perfect lip sync! So I can play a blu ray disc with JRiver and the full 1M taps with the M scaler engaged.



Media Player Classic also allows negatively delayed audio and I was planning to use this when my DAVE arrives.

I was thinking I could use a formula to work out the delay introduced by the taps. For example with 48kHz film audio, 16x upsampling to 768kHz with 164,000 taps implies a delay due to half the length of the filer: 82,000 taps. 82,000 divided by 768,000 is 107 milliseconds. What you've written with regard to Blu 2 upsampling confirms that (assuming 0.66 is the delay with 1 million taps).

Now playing: Low - If You Were Born Today (Song for Little Baby Jesus)


----------



## Rob Watts

Correct on M scaler and Dave delay


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> Thanks, Fredrik.
> 
> I am home now (I arrived late last night and it's been tough to report back until now).  It was probably the best CES in recent memory with lots to see and hear.  The Chord room and the time spent with Rob and John were easily the highlight.  Thank you both!  Just the most gracious hosts!
> 
> ...




A great and thoughtful post as always Roy! 

Interesting to read about the MSB Select II vs Blu 2 + DAVE combo. It is always hard to distinguish and compare setups in different rooms, with different speaker amps , interconnects and more factors...
 From my impression i got the same as you, the MSB got plenty of air around every note that is thrown at you with a great 3D feeling to it. 
The sound is detailed and a slightly thickened that can sound a bit slow. The soundstage is more massive than DAVE. 
So again i would say from my impression that the Select II got some greater qualities in some areas, but DAVE is more life like, and got other qualities that the MSB doesn't, so it is as always a matter of taste. 

I want to listen to the Blu 2 + DAVE and with other DACś as soon as i come over it! 

Did they use the Cord Company Array 75 Ohm BNC cables between the Blu 2 and DAVE or? 

And what model of USB - S/pdif converter were they using ? 

This may sound a little cheap: 

Then i am close to order a Blu 2 also but i am thinking on the aftermarket sale, that it is going to be easier to sell the DAVINA than the Blu 2 most probably because of more inputs (incl. USB input ? ) and the ADC for buyers with high recording demands in the wait for a more stand alone M-Scaler box coming out.


----------



## esimms86

romaz said:


> Esau, at 705/768 kHz, 1 million TAPS is possible but only connected to DAVE via the dual DX inputs can this bandwidth be achieved.  With any other DAC connected by conventional means, the best bandwidth you can get is 352/384 kHz which is only half as good.  This equates to about 500,000 TAPS and this information comes from Rob himself.
> 
> As to when Davina will actually be ready, according to Rob, it would be anyone's guess and may not be ready by this time next year.  Davina was always more of a proof of concept and was designed to answer some important questions for Rob.  Its creation didn't stem from industry demand as has been suggested nor does he really care if it reaches critical mass but I know that it is important for him to get it right and as this is somewhat uncharted territory for him, there are some unknowns.
> 
> ...


 

 Roy, thanks for your complete (as usual) clarifications. I fully believed you when you said 1 million taps only with Dave but I wanted to point out that the product announcement copy did not make this clear. Ah well.
  
 I also appreciate the fact that Davina will be ready when it's ready and, at the same time, it looks like Rob and Chord are moving at a rapid clip as evidenced by the code being essentially done and the PCB prototype arriving soon. Who knows, it could be 5-6 months, or not!
  
 Thanks for clarifying on the color options which were not addressed in the product announcement.
  
 I'm guessing that you'll be needing another HFC power cable for your Blu mkII! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Esau


----------



## jelt2359

beolab said:


> Then i am close to order a Blu 2 also but i am thinking on the aftermarket sale, that it is going to be easier to sell the DAVINA than the Blu 2 most probably because of more inputs (incl. USB input ? ) and the ADC for buyers with high recording demands in the wait for a more stand alone M-Scaler box coming out.


 
  
  
 Seems like you and I are thinking the same way. I could conceivably see a use for the ADC, going around and recording friends' vinyl records. Although that too is a stretch. But CDP is a 'never ever' type of proposition for me. Hmm...


----------



## esimms86

romaz said:


> The price is indeed high and so this is how I had to look at it to justify this purchase for myself.
> You are absolutely correct but imagine what would happen if Blu Mk 2 was half the price. A much cheaper non-Chord DAC could potentially reach or exceed DAVE's performance for half the price of DAVE which would be quite upsetting for DAVE owners who have no plans to upgrade. I believe there is a balance here that must be respected for Chord not to upset its customers. As all things go, eventually, with time and advancement of technology, 1 million taps will likely one day trickle down to a Mojo-type device at Mojo-type pricing and Hugo 2 is a good example of that progression and so for those that are willing to wait, I'm sure that Chord will one day deliver. What is exciting for me is to see how quickly technology is advancing, not just for Chord but for other brands as well and so it is the consumer that wins here. Rob had previously shared with me that when he first idealized the concept of 1 million TAPS while at university years ago, FPGAs didn't even exist and so 1 million TAPS had always been more of an idealized concept rather than a practical thought. To actually have achieved 1 million TAPS is not only a momentous occasion for Rob, I'm sure, but really a momentous occasion for all of us who have embraced digital as our preferred medium. As the old guard who will continue to cling to their turntables for sentimental reasons die off, I can't see analog media as having any real reason to exist in the future.


 

 The last decade or so has provided the world with younger and younger generations of vinyl lovers so the old guard is morphing into a new guard. There are also plenty of recordings that have never been released in digital formats, thus, giving people continued incentive to do needle drops.
  
 BTW there is an even older guard of reel to reel fanatics who believe that CDs recorded onto R2R tapes are the way to go. To my mind, they are trying to tap into R2R's euphonic distortion but then again I've never had a chance to listen such recordings, let alone AB them with the digital source material.


----------



## adyc

Rob,

I have hesitation to buy Blu 2 now. I am worried that if Davina comes out later the year, it will have improved version of M scalar. Furthermore, do you think you will incorporate Poly to Davina?


----------



## jelt2359

adyc said:


> Rob,
> 
> I have hesitation to buy Blu 2 now. I am worried that if Davina comes out later the year, it will have improved version of M scalar. Furthermore, do you think you will incorporate Poly to Davina?


 
 I don't think either of those will happen. Chord has been very clear that the Blu Mk2 has their best scalar to date, and tech doesn't change in a few months.
  
 Correct me if I'm wrong, Poly to Davina also doesn't make sense- how will an analog (non-digital) signal get passed via wi-fi to the Poly in this case? But if you're asking about an M-scalar device with Poly built in, then _that_ may be interesting...


----------



## romaz

beolab said:


>


 
 I hope my statements weren't taken too far out of context.  It's sometimes difficult to convey the degree of how much better something sounds in words and so sometimes, people will infer things that the writer wasn't intending.  I hold MSB and the Select II in very high regard.  The same thing goes for the Nagra HD.  Along with the TotalDac line and the dCS Vivaldi, these would round out my top 5.  If someone gave me either of these DACs, I know I would enjoy them but if I had to spend my money, I know which one I would buy and I wouldn't hesitate even 1 second even if all of these DACs cost the same.  As I stated, I don't profess to have any more of a golden ear than anyone else but I have a strong sense of what I like and what I'm looking for and because I have heard and have been able to compare many things, I have the advantage of perspective over some.  I know what's out there and I know how good things can get relative to the real thing and thus far, I have not come across anything that sounds as vividly real as my DAVE in my system.  If I were to stop now, I know I would be very happy, perhaps forever, because the balance that I have and the engagement that I feel for my music every time that I turn my system on is at "giddy" levels and has been this way for some time.
  
 Prior to arriving to CES, Rob had prepared me with the idea that I would be hearing something very special.  Given that I have been around the block a few times and knowing the high level that my system was already at, I came to CES with an open mind but also a fairly realistic expectation of just how much better something new can sound.  It is very rare these days that I hear something and am surprised because I have gotten pretty good at adjusting my expectations appropriately.  Nonetheless, given the more modest setup that the DAVE and Blu 2 were in relative to what I have at home, I found myself more than a little surprised and was actually quite shocked.  In any given room at any high-end audio show, when someone switches from digital to vinyl, you know it right away because it always sounds different, in most cases, it's better and I think we all know what that step change sounds like.  This step change was much more pronounced and what is most shocking is that we weren't comparing the M-scaler to Mojo, we were comparing it to DAVE!  Prior to coming to CES, I had expected that I would be waiting for Davina (if I even bought the M-scaler at all) but as Rob has said, after the first 2 minutes, all that I could think of was "where's my wallet, I'm ready to buy now."
  
 Yes, you are right, you cannot directly compare something like the Select II against the DAVE + Blu 2 when they are in different rooms and part of different systems and so you are wise to have picked up on that.  To be honest, MSB does such a wonderful job setting up their rooms that in past shows, I have always preferred what I have heard in the MSB room compared to what I have heard in the Chord room and if I were to make a purchase decision based on those experiences alone, I would opt for the Select II but on this occasion, even though the list price for the components in the MSB room well exceeded $250,000 and the list price for the components in the Chord room where Blu 2 was featured was probably less than $50,000, the Chord + Blu 2 presentation was that much more musical and engaging and performance differences between the two became much more apparent to me once that orchestral track was played.
  
 As for the cables that were used, I'm not exactly sure what they were.  I recall they were only using BNC cables as playback was directly from CD.  There was no USB to SPDIF converter in sight but I am earnestly evaluating the quality of these devices at this time.  Rob has suggested that because of how the signal is scaled before it is passed along to DAVE and because the BNC connection will be galvanically isolated, it really shouldn't matter what converter I use but I'm not taking chances, nonetheless, and so I'll be able to offer my comparisons when the time comes.


----------



## lovethatsound

Don't forget the BNC connections on Dave are not galvanically isolated☺


----------



## romaz

lovethatsound said:


> Don't forget the BNC connections on Dave are not galvanically isolated☺


 
 But they will be on Blu 2 and Davina.  You only need galvanic isolation on one end but this does mean you will need decent BNC cables with good RF rejection.


----------



## halloweenman

rob watts said:


> The USB port is bi-directional, so it can input any sample rate/32 bits and at the same time output any sample rate/32 bits. USB is galvanically isolated. I suppose that via an appropriate app one could then transmit to Dave via USB. But the BNC outputs are galvanically isolated too so that won't represent a SQ degradation as its the galvanic isolation that makes by far the biggest difference.
> 
> Rob




Rob are you able to reveal if Hugo 2 USB is galvanically isolated? Thanks.


----------



## analogmusic

Hi Romaz
  
 Very interesting points about Vinyl and how when a serious journalist enters the room, they switch to Vinyl.
  
 However on some recent Vinyl I am not sure I like them, the digital version from Mojo (let alone Dave) sounds more musical.
  
 And then outside the Chord Dac world, I have a friend who owns a Naim 272 Streamer/DAC/Preamp. with the massive regulated PS555 power supply, and he also says he can't hear the superiority of his Vinyl rig (which costs less than his digital one), and he isn't prepared to invest any further in analog playback (in his words "there isn't that big difference") The album in question was Bruce Springsteen "born to run" as a specific case. 
  
 I guess at these shows, they must be playing *analog recorded Vinyl* (and I hear the instant superiority and clarity of this, for instance the Metallic Load album on 45 RPM direct from the analog master tapes from Bernie Grundman).
  
  
 Regards


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I shall buy Blu2 without a demo, as I did with the Dave. I have been through Red Ref I, II and III. There is nothing to demo for me. When I bought the Chord amp I did demo that and also compare with competitor products and I will probably do so again for the new amps but only to make sure my speakers are driven properly. I believe in Robs judgement. It is proven. The Chord sound to me always seems to have a pristine quality that reflects the various gradients of their products. There is nothing flabby about Chord sound. It has a precision and maybe because I spent years listening through headphones trying to get the best recording I could of a particular instrument or vocal, Rob's products work for me.

Edit: just like to point out that my recording days were non commercial. I just have an obsession with music and sound which has gone to great lengths over the years.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Romaz
One thing that I am surprised you didn't focus on when describing the Blu2 improvements is timbre of instruments. Perhaps because there was just so much of everything else! The reason I say this is that I can tell quite a noticeable difference in this area through the Dave when I compare the Red Reference upscaling to 88.2 from 44.1. Particularly noticeable on electric guitar. Instruments that I know well like Fender Strat or Gibson LP. I would expect the same of any instruments you are particularly well acquainted with in an analogue environment. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on this aspect of the sound?

Edit: 'Acoustic Twelve String' is also very noticeable because of its complexity.


----------



## Hubert H

Dave, have you noticed and improvement in the 1200E since you got the DAVE?
  
 I thought it was as good as it was going to get with the BLU and Indigo(QBD76) direct to the amps. I have a small room and when the volume went up, quite high mind, the system could get a bit shouty. This I thought was associated with the amps and their class A/B operation. However, since I got the DAVE this shoutiness has gone for the same volume levels. I now have to be careful as the house foundations are very old…
  
 The Chord amps are better than I thought they were.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

hubert h said:


> Dave, have you noticed and improvement in the 1200E since you got the DAVE?
> 
> I thought it was as good as it was going to get with the BLU and Indigo(QBD76) direct to the amps. I have a small room and when the volume went up, quite high mind, the system could get a bit shouty. This I thought was associated with the amps and their class A/B operation. However, since I got the DAVE this shoutiness has gone for the same volume levels. I now have to be careful as the house foundations are very old…
> 
> The Chord amps are better than I thought they were.




When one considers the price of the SPM 1200 mk2 compared to some of its larger brothers I think this amp is very good value. Certainly it has no trouble showing off the attributes of Dave. The only limit I have found is in the A/B nature if I wind it up crazy loud. (Something I have only done once and only noticed once.) It can as you say lose some of its smoothness. I am looking forward to having the digital signal travel from Dave to the new amps but I have to say, after a year with Dave I am still rediscovering music I Loved but had stopped listening to that I now know still has something to offer. Dave still delivers the magic for me despite the passage of time and the new craving for Blu2. Lately I have even been buying old 70's compilation CD's of songs I loved back then but were not greatly recorded and yet even these have something to offer. I am hearing timbre I had never heard in 40 year old recordings. I also listened to Doris Day's 'When I fall in Love' from 1952 and the quality of the vocal recording is breathtaking. Without getting too deep, my day is enhanced by these new revelations and I feel privileged to be honest.


----------



## rkt31

rob watts said:


> Actually I have had the half M taps since September on my home theatre. With Blu there is a dither switch for CD - but when you are using the SPDIF this switch controls the delay, and there is a video mode which reduces the latency from 0.66 seconds to 100 mS which is fine for projectors and audio delay set to 0.
> 
> But over Christmas I discovered a cool feature with JRiver. I play Blu ray discs with JRiver, and you can set the delay up to 2.5 seconds, so the audio is delayed by 2.5 seconds. Then I thought what if it accepted a negative delay? That is delaying the video not the audio? And it works - setting it to -0.56 gave me perfect lip sync! So I can play a blu ray disc with JRiver and the full 1M taps with the M scaler engaged.
> 
> Rob


 
 and the beauty of j river, it allows the asio selection for audio output with movies which no other media software allows to my knowledge.


----------



## TheAttorney

rob watts said:


> I am still getting to grips with how good the M scaler is -


 
  
 Hi Rob, when you've fully worked it out ), can I suggest 2 things in the (hopefully not too distant) future:
  
 1. A standalone M-Scaler in a smaller, simpler box and a smaller price - for those who don't need the CD transport
  
 2. Even better, an upgrade to DAVE to include all the SQ benefits of the M-Scaler, but fitted within the existing DAVE box. I'm guessing this will need h/w as well as s/w changes. I'm sure many existing DAVE owners would be prepared to pay a fair price for such an upgrade.


----------



## jelt2359

theattorney said:


> Hi Rob, when you've fully worked it out ), can I suggest 2 things in the (hopefully not too distant) future:
> 
> 1. A standalone M-Scaler in a smaller, simpler box and a smaller price - for those who don't need the CD transport
> 
> 2. Even better, an upgrade to DAVE to include all the SQ benefits of the M-Scaler, but fitted within the existing DAVE box. I'm guessing this will need h/w as well as s/w changes. I'm sure many existing DAVE owners would be prepared to pay a fair price for such an upgrade.




I agree with you but I'm concerned about the power requirements of 2. This is the most power intensive, noisy part of the device and to increase the requirements so much... you're probably better off with a new device imho.


----------



## Rob Watts

halloweenman said:


> rob watts said:
> 
> 
> > The USB port is bi-directional, so it can input any sample rate/32 bits and at the same time output any sample rate/32 bits. USB is galvanically isolated. I suppose that via an appropriate app one could then transmit to Dave via USB. But the BNC outputs are galvanically isolated too so that won't represent a SQ degradation as its the galvanic isolation that makes by far the biggest difference.
> ...


 
 No it's not as Hugo 2's primary use is on trains, planes and automobiles and currently our USB decoding chip consumes too much power - which with galvanic isolation would mean the USB chip would flatten the source battery too rapidly. It's less of a problem with mobile sources; and I have much improved the RF filtering and isolation on the USB power and ground too, so RF noise can't get into Hugo's ground plane.
  
 Rob


----------



## halloweenman

Many thanks Rob.
  
 Just a thought, any plans to introduce USB galvanic isolation into a Poly-like module for Hugo 2?


----------



## romaz

daveredref-iii said:


> Romaz
> One thing that I am surprised you didn't focus on when describing the Blu2 improvements is timbre of instruments. Perhaps because there was just so much of everything else! The reason I say this is that I can tell quite a noticeable difference in this area through the Dave when I compare the Red Reference upscaling to 88.2 from 44.1. Particularly noticeable on electric guitar. Instruments that I know well like Fender Strat or Gibson LP. I would expect the same of any instruments you are particularly well acquainted with in an analogue environment. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on this aspect of the sound?
> 
> Edit: 'Acoustic Twelve String' is also very noticeable because of its complexity.


 
 The DAVE has always excelled when it comes to timbre accuracy and so the M-scaler did nothing to change that opinion.  One thing that perhaps was more prominent during my brief listen was timbre variation.  The timbre contrasts among similar instruments was much more evident.  This is what I meant by the violins sounding homogenous in the MSB room, this performance difference was very apparent.


----------



## Kamil21

In case anybody is wondering, I'm getting excellent results matching the Sony MDR-Z1R to my DAVE. Perfect for bringing out the bass lines, timbre and acoustics that both devices excel in.


----------



## Crgreen

Placing the DAVE on the carpet probably also helps


----------



## Jawed

rob watts said:


> What I can't get my head around is why just a sixfold increase in tap length can transform the sound.



Now that you've proven that there is a huge new vista of performance at 1 million taps and that DAVE reveals it so well, I thought I'd pose some questions:

Is DAVE fully revealing what these 1 million taps are doing? It seems unlikely, since you were still hearing large improvements when you got to 350dB noise shaping resolution.

Since DAVE can reveal the benefits of > 164,000 tap filtering, isn't is possible to write software for an ordinary computer that, for example reads a WAV encoded 44.1kHz 16-bit file and produces a 768kHz 24-bit WAV file that's used the WTA algorithm at an arbitrary tap length? Sure, this wouldn't be in real-time, but going to 2 million or 10 million taps to hear what happens when you play this file into DAVE has got to be tempting...

The WTA algorithm isn't using a pure sinc function (since sinc requires infinite taps) and additionally it seems to be "tuned for transients". I'm wondering if there comes a point at which a finite tap-length sinc function becomes identical in its result to a WTA function for the same number of taps? Does the difference between the two functions reduce with increasing tap-length? If so, is there a chance that would coincide with the tap-length that produces no additional gain in quality?

Now playing: Tindersticks - She's Gone


----------



## Deftone

rob watts said:


> Actually I have had the half M taps since September on my home theatre. With Blu there is a dither switch for CD - but when you are using the SPDIF this switch controls the delay, and there is a video mode which reduces the latency from 0.66 seconds to 100 mS which is fine for projectors and audio delay set to 0.
> 
> But over Christmas I discovered a cool feature with JRiver. I play Blu ray discs with JRiver, and you can set the delay up to 2.5 seconds, so the audio is delayed by 2.5 seconds. Then I thought what if it accepted a negative delay? That is delaying the video not the audio? And it works - setting it to -0.56 gave me perfect lip sync!* So I can play a blu ray disc with JRiver and the full 1M taps with the M scaler engaged.*
> 
> Rob


----------



## Deftone

kamil21 said:


> In case anybody is wondering, I'm getting excellent results matching the Sony MDR-Z1R to my DAVE. Perfect for bringing out the bass lines, timbre and acoustics that both devices excel in.


 
 wow what a beautiful looking combination


----------



## Beolab

jawed said:


> Now that you've proven that there is a huge new vista of performance at 1 million taps and that DAVE reveals it so well, I thought I'd pose some questions:
> 
> Is DAVE fully revealing what these 1 million taps are doing? It seems unlikely, since you were still hearing large improvements when you got to 350dB noise shaping resolution.
> 
> ...




Great point / question! 


PS 

Does anyone now if Jude have abandon Head-fi and moved to Tokyo for good??  

No Video coverage of all new products on CES ??


----------



## analogmusic

That was my thought too, as for me personally I would rather have a slower and less expensive FPGA, it does not need to be real time at all, or this processing done in software that runs on a windows even it if takes one hour per album. 
  
 Anyway necessity is the mother of invention. Hope this can be done off line without such an expensive FPGA.


----------



## ray-dude

analogmusic said:


> That was my thought too, as for me personally I would rather have a slower and less expensive FPGA, it does not need to be real time at all, or this processing done in software that runs on a windows even it if takes one hour per album.
> 
> Anyway necessity is the mother of invention. Hope this can be done off line without such an expensive FPGA.


 
  
 FPGA is expensive, but not in absolute terms (they run around $300 retail right?)  Lots more cost leverage by moving to more blue collar case work (which I prefer aesthetically, but I appreciate that others would feel otherwise)  
  
 Batch/offline processing would be awesome though.  Anyone want to buy a m scaler and set up M scaler conversion to DSD512 as a service?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Converting WTA into a computer friendly software package?I think Chord would risk pirating and because of the very existence of a cheap alternative, their business model would be compromised over time. That doesn't mean it couldn't be done but it would require a completely different business model for Chord with hugely greater volumes. 

The suggestion would seem to make sense though as an r&d process for Rob alone to use. It would not be unlike the early Digital Audio Workstations (DAWs) which rendered offline.


----------



## Kamil21

daveredref-iii said:


> Converting WTA into a computer friendly software package?I think Chord would risk pirating and because of the very existence of a cheap alternative, their business model would be compromised over time. That doesn't mean it couldn't be done but it would require a completely different business model for Chord with hugely greater volumes.
> 
> The suggestion would seem to make sense though as an r&d process for Rob alone to use. It would not be unlike the early Digital Audio Workstations (DAWs) which rendered offline.




I would think that there are existing software based upscalers in the market already. I would be interesting to do a comparison review of the leading ones which upscale cd to 705.6k like the Blu does and feed the input to Dave. Maybe the taps are different, but interesting all the same.


----------



## adyc

Actually, I hope Chord can offer software based M-scalar. Maybe PC is not powerful enough realtime crunching. But I can run offline to upsample existing library.


----------



## analogmusic

I think the MScaler does something very unique, and it isn't simple upscaling as it is based on WTA filter, which Rob Watts alone knows, and spent 20 years of his life refining.
  
 So I doubt, he is going to release this as a software package as the risk of piracy is too great.
  
 We can always hope, but somehow I think the price of Blu2 and Davina aren't going to change.
  
 Personally I was enjoying Dave quite a lot last night, so I'm not going to lose any sleep over the price of Davina as I am quite prepared to use Dave alone, and enjoy it. Before Blu 2 Mscaler, it was the best that Rob Watts could make. 
  
 Sometimes ignorance is bliss, until the price comes down in time eventually. And it if does not, that is ok. Dave plays music to a very satisfactory level as it is for me.


----------



## ubs28

I have one of the small remote controls that ships with the Chord Dave. However the Chord Dave used to ship with an other remote control that seems like it could control a CD player.

Can the older remote control work with the new CD player? If so, people who bought the Dave recently have a worse remote control?


----------



## lovethatsound

ubs28 said:


> I have one of the small remote controls that ships with the Chord Dave. However the Chord Dave used to ship with an other remote control that seems like it could control a CD player.
> 
> Can the older remote control work with the new CD player? If so, people who bought the Dave recently have a worse remote control?


The remote i got with my Dave is the same remote i got with the blu.The dave remote will control my blu apart from turning it on and off from standby.The blu remote will not control anything on the Dave.☺


----------



## bmichels

Sorry for stupid question, but:
  
 - if I want to also use the Blu2 as an up-sampler for my music server, then *do I need a music server with **BNC S/PDIF output* since Blu2 do not have USB input ?  So most Music server will not be usable with Blu2 without an adapter ? 
  
- If I want to use Blu2 as an up-sampler for another DAC than DAVE,* does my DAC need to have a Dual BNC S/PDIF input* to get maximum advantage of the M-scaller from Blu2 ?


----------



## romaz

bmichels said:


> Sorry for stupid question, but:
> 
> - if I want to also use the Blu2 as an up-sampler for my music server, then *do I need a music server with **BNC S/PDIF output* since Blu2 do not have USB input ?  So most Music server will not be usable with Blu2 without an adapter ?
> 
> - If I want to use Blu2 as an up-sampler for another DAC than DAVE,* does my DAC need to have a Dual BNC S/PDIF input* to get maximum advantage of the M-scaller from Blu2 ?


 
 Yes, yes, and yes.


----------



## Muataz

adyc said:


> Actually, I hope Chord can offer software based M-scalar. Maybe PC is not powerful enough realtime crunching. But I can run offline to upsample existing library.


  


 You may need 10 cpu i7 to run it real time.


----------



## JaZZ

adyc said:


> Actually, I hope Chord can offer software based M-scalar. Maybe PC is not powerful enough realtime crunching. *But I can run offline to upsample existing library.*


 
  
 Do you really want to convert your whole music collection to 768 kHz? Imagine the resulting file sizes!


----------



## Jawed

jawed said:


> [...]reads a WAV encoded 44.1kHz 16-bit file and produces a 768kHz 24-bit WAV file that's used the WTA algorithm at an arbitrary tap length?




Whoops that should be "produces a 705.6kHz 24-bit WAV file".

I wasn't trying to suggest that Chord makes the software for people to use, merely that Rob could do his own experiments this way. It must be tempting.

Now playing: Red House Painters - Michael


----------



## ubs28

lovethatsound said:


> The remote i got with my Dave is the same remote i got with the blu.The dave remote will control my blu apart from turning it on and off from standby.The blu remote will not control anything on the Dave.☺


 
  
 That's annoying. The remote I got has only 7 buttons including the power on / off button. It seems people who ordered the Chord Dave much earlier has the better remote it seems since it will work with the Blu.


----------



## Sonic77

I also only use the remote to turn the Dave on and off while on standby.
Now I can see a remote being more useful with a cd player to skip around tracks.


----------



## Christer

sonic77 said:


> I also only use the remote to turn the Dave on and off while on standby.
> Now I can see a remote being more useful with a cd player to skip around tracks.


 

 Sorry but I just could not resist quoting andyv´s view of CD over at Computer Audiophile.
 It pretty much sums up my view of that medium as well with or without remote control.
  
  
 "and as for

 " Chord's John Franks talked about how important physical CDs are to people and that the Blu mk II was really to bring out the best in CD playback. He went on to say people should have CDs, collect them, pass them down to children etc... And, that it's his belief that the "downloading generation" is missing the tangible quality and that people like cd collections. CD is important to John and he made if very clear. "

 he should really listen to his children! CD is a legacy medium. It is finished. Over. Done and dusted. History. The past. Gone. You can pass playlists down to your kids - or even better, ask your kids for their playlists! I hated my CD collection, stupid plastic cases, minuscule print in tiny booklets, impossible to browse. Good riddance! I'm as likely to buy this as I am to buy a wind up gramophone."
 Ps I hope andyv doesn´t mind my quoting him here. I could not have put it better myself.


----------



## lovethatsound

@ Christer
Theirs nothing wrong with cds at all,I've got loads of them,and their all in perfect condition,like new in fact.


----------



## romaz

christer said:


> Sorry but I just could not resist quoting andyv´s view of CD over at Computer Audiophile.
> It pretty much sums up my view of that medium as well with or without remote control.
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I read this also.  Chris Connaker pretty much is saying the same thing although these types of comments are expected from "computer audiophiles."  To be clear, I actually belong to this group of computer audiophiles.  I ripped my CD collection long ago and have moved on from physical media and it is unlikely I will go back to them except for the occasional rare or vintage CD that friends bring by.
  
 There is an etiquette here that needs to be respected, however.  Just because it's not for us doesn't give us an excuse to disparage it.  If you take that paragraph that andyv wrote and replaced "CD" with "classical music," I'm fairly certain you would feel differently and yet, in many ways, classical music is like the CD -- it is a dying art in most parts of the world.  Most young people aren't into it and I'm sure many would say "Good riddance!" if it went away just like andyv is saying.  
  
 The beauty of the free society we live in is that no one is forcing us to buy the Blu Mk 2.  It is for those who value what it offers and according to John, the demand for the Blu in some parts of the world including parts of Asia remains very high.  What is the real shame here is that with computer audiophiles like Chris Connaker and andyv, because of their negative feelings about CDs, somehow they have completely failed to grasp the significance of Rob's landmark achievement.  Andyv offers you one reason why he believes you should dismiss the Blu Mk 2 while I can offer you a "million" reasons why you shouldn't.  Blu Mk 2 + any DAC will probably provide you with a digital front end that will be superior to >99% of all other front ends.


----------



## Kamil21

@romaz , I couldn't agree more. The answer to all is that it depends.... I have ripped all my cd's to hard disk, many of which do not exist on Tidal. I still find that my CD transport sound quality betters my computer.. knowing one day it won't.. , and every once in a while I find a CD that is no longer available in print. I also enjoy browsing through the CD booklet for albums like Quadraphenia from The Who. 

Would I leave treasured books for my children or simply point them to the online version? Only time will tell..


----------



## rkt31

USB asynchronous transfer is already better than many expensive CD transport because asynchronous transfer maintains the data integrity and has better jitter rejection .but yes USB implementation has to be good for rfi , emi rejection but then the problem is same for CD transport too as it has to use a cable too.


----------



## SunWarrior

romaz said:


> I read this also.  Chris Connaker pretty much is saying the same thing although these types of comments are expected from "computer audiophiles."  To be clear, I actually belong to this group of computer audiophiles.  I ripped my CD collection long ago and have moved on from physical media and it is unlikely I will go back to them except for the occasional rare or vintage CD that friends bring by.


 
  
 My whole music collection is also on hard drives, with an Aurender as my primary source.
 But CDs are still part of the game, since I regularly find music that's not available for download but only, or sometimes far more cheaply, on CD.
 So I buy the CD, rip it, then put it in storage.
  
 This is why the Davina appeals to me, since I don't need a CD player.
  
*QUESTIONS* about how to connect the Davina to my DAVE.
  

Does that need two BNC-terminated SPDIF cables between one unit and the other?
Or will just one of those cables suffice between the Davina going to the DAVE?
And would those two cables need to connect to the existing DAVE inputs?
Or is this where those other four BNC connectors on the DAVE come into play?
  
 Dave, who has been experimenting with the various DAVE inputs from his Aurender N10's multiple outputs and increasingly finds the USB input to deliver the richest sound


----------



## darkless

sunwarrior said:


> [COLOR=0000CD]*QUESTIONS*[/COLOR] about how to connect the Davina to my DAVE.
> 
> 
> Does that need two BNC-terminated SPDIF cables between one unit and the other?
> ...


In short: Yes, no, no, yes.


----------



## Beolab

Look at this video: 

https://youtu.be/dcle_wKfw_E


----------



## jelt2359

sunwarrior said:


> My whole music collection is also on hard drives, with an Aurender as my primary source.
> But CDs are still part of the game, since I regularly find music that's not available for download but only, or sometimes far more cheaply, on CD.
> So I buy the CD, rip it, then put it in storage.
> 
> ...




Don't know anything about CD players; would the Blu work as an awesome cd ripper? How would this work?


----------



## Silvertone4

I ran into this tonight, great compliments at a CES listening session in the Chord room. John Atkinson in the same room as Rob Watts listening to the Dave, two legends in their own right.


http://www.stereophile.com/content/jake-shimabukuro-bluebird-music-suite-venetian#dHKAmspvrGAmbTAJ.97


----------



## romaz

jelt2359 said:


> Don't know anything about CD players; would the Blu work as an awesome cd ripper? How would this work?


 
 No, CD playback only.  I suppose you could divert the data stream to a digital recorder and record as a continuous .wav file but that would be one gigantic file.


----------



## romaz

silvertone4 said:


> I ran into this tonight, great compliments at a CES listening session in the Chord room. John Atkinson in the same room as Rob Watts listening to the Dave, two legends in their own right.
> 
> 
> http://www.stereophile.com/content/jake-shimabukuro-bluebird-music-suite-venetian#dHKAmspvrGAmbTAJ.97


 
 Chord must have changed the room after Thursday.  When I got there on Friday, there was no DAVE, only Red:


----------



## romaz

Here are a couple of shots I got of Blu Mk2:
  

  

  
 It looks as if Atlas Mavros Ultra BNC cables are being used.


----------



## Kamil21

romaz said:


> Chord must have changed the room after Thursday.  When I got there on Friday, there was no DAVE, only Red:




Ya. Oddly enough, the photos in the article show DAVE, but the equipment list at the end of the article only mention Red.


----------



## Rob Watts

The Jake visit was definitely one of the highlights of the show. And because the idea was to compare the sound of the ukulele recorded a couple of weeks ago against the sound of the system, we dropped a Dave into the system. Stereophile were going around the show, and trying to see which system sounded closest to the original which is a cool idea; but the flaw is that the microphone and ADC is also part of the chain.
  
 I have some personal interest, as my son had just started to play the ukulele, so I know the sound of his instrument quite well.
  
 Because I am interested in how it was miked, (hopefully having to do my own test recordings soon) I asked about the mic - it was a classic Neumann valve (tube) mic; I think the U47. I asked about placement, and it was 3 inches from the strings - so I was expecting a very bright incisive sound.
  
Firstly Jake played - and frankly his playing was exquisite; I have never ever heard a ukulele played with such expression - or with such speed and finesse - if you like the sound of the ukulele, check out Jake Shimabukuro, he has his own website - the album is the Nashville sessions. Next came the recorded version. For all those that have postulated that Dave's cavernous sound-stage is something I have added, I can confirm that the sound was completely and utterly flat, hovering immediately above the Dave in centre line from the speakers - exactly as one would expect from a close miked sound with no added reverb. But the live was clearly brighter with more transient impact - recorded being a bit softer and warmer - I guess the U47 is playing its part here, as it is chosen because it sounds warm.
  
So it proved very interesting, and gave me a tiny glimpse into the fun I should be having later this year in recording my own son's ukulele. 
  
Rob


----------



## Kamil21

Rob Watts

Indeed the Ukelele is becoming a fave as my daughter has also taken this up. I use an AKG 426B which is a single point stereo mic with adjustable polar patterns, including M/S. I would think that a good mic pre will also have a major role to play and wonder if there is a full mic pre as part of Davina or not. This is certainly a something to look forward to.


----------



## drbobbybones

rob watts said:


> The Jake visit was definitely one of the highlights of the show. And because the idea was to compare the sound of the ukulele recorded a couple of weeks ago against the sound of the system, we dropped a Dave into the system. Stereophile were going around the show, and trying to see which system sounded closest to the original which is a cool idea; but the flaw is that the microphone and ADC is also part of the chain.
> 
> I have some personal interest, as my son had just started to play the ukulele, so I know the sound of his instrument quite well.
> 
> ...


 

 +1 on Jake Shimabukuro.  His albums are incredible, and the DAVE truly allows the dynamic range of his performance and each brush of the strings to not only be heard, but to be felt.


----------



## Rob Watts

kamil21 said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> Indeed the Ukelele is becoming a fave as my daughter has also taken this up. I use an AKG 426B which is a single point stereo mic with adjustable polar patterns, including M/S. I would think that a good mic pre will also have a major role to play and wonder if there is a full mic pre as part of Davina or not. This is certainly a something to look forward to.


 
 Absolutely - I wanted to take control of much of the signal chain as possible, so Davina has an adjustable gain (via relays) mic input with switchable phantom power too.
  
 Rob


----------



## Kamil21

rob watts said:


> Absolutely - I wanted to take control of much of the signal chain as possible, so Davina has an adjustable gain (via relays) mic input with switchable phantom power too.
> 
> Rob



!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I took my Dave over to a friends place this week to see what it could do for his system. He uses Quad front end, Roksan amp and Avalon speakers. So an average cost system and quite a pleasant musical sound, though We both suspected the performance was perhaps marred by bad electrics. I was expecting the Dave to blow it away but the lack of any real game change is a lesson for us all. It doesn't matter how good your kit, if you don't a) Sort out your electrics and b) sufficiently isolate the chain from start to finish then there is only so much a DAC or any other component can deliver.

This got me looking at speaker isolation and I came across this video from Townshend Engineering. It's a real eye opener as I had never heard of it or thought about the issues raised in the Video. I understand a number of the leading HIFI reviewers (Stereophile and HIFI+ included) use this product. 
http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/hi-fi-home-cinema-vibration-isolation-speaker-podiums/

If any of you guys have tried it out I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Sorry O/T

PS: The video also made me wonder how much a problem some people must have if they live anywhere near a major road. The continuous rumble caused by lorries in particular must be a problem and may contribute to the reason everything in your system seems to sound better late at night? Food for thought at least.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

silvertone4 said:


> I ran into this tonight, great compliments at a CES listening session in the Chord room. John Atkinson in the same room as Rob Watts listening to the Dave, two legends in their own right.
> 
> http://www.stereophile.com/content/jake-shimabukuro-bluebird-music-suite-venetian#dHKAmspvrGAmbTAJ.97




I wonder if John Atkinson had a chance to listen to the Blu2 with Dave.


----------



## esimms86

kamil21 said:


> Ya. Oddly enough, the photos in the article show DAVE, but the equipment list at the end of the article only mention Red.




Kamil21, you're absolutely correct. It also was apparent that Dave was being fed from a laptop, perhaps Rob's laptop running Jriver.It would have been nice if the Blu mk2 was also in the system though, even without it, Jake felt the playback fidelity relative to his live performance was best in show(at least up to that point). An interesting experiment, however, it was also a referendum on the fidelity produced by the choices made when making the recording.

On an unrelated note, Stereophile should hire Jake to write a column from a musician's perspective. He definitely has the ears.


----------



## Crgreen

It would be nice if Sterophile would get round to reviewing the DAVE, which is advertised in its pages. Similarly, with TAS. So far as I can tell, it's been reviewed in all the leading European hi-fi mags, and won several annual awards, but seems to only have an underground existence in the US press. Odd.


----------



## SunWarrior

crgreen said:


> It would be nice if Sterophile would get round to reviewing the DAVE, which is advertised in its pages. Similarly, with TAS. So far as I can tell, it's been reviewed in all the leading European hi-fi mags, and won several annual awards, but seems to only have an underground existence in the US press. Odd.




Yes, odd. I've wondered too about the absence of DAVE reviews in those two publications and on the Computer Audiophile site.

When I chose to keep the DAVE over the Berkeley Reference DAC (more detail, deeper soundstage, more musical), several people questioned my decision - likely because they had read glowing reviews about the Berkeley and nothing much about the DAVE.

Dave, who spent a good amount of time in 2016 comparing both those two DACs along with the Bricasti M1 and the Schiit Yggy


----------



## chordguy

Dave   ......   I have a set of this, size 4, for my large Proac speakers.
 You need to speak to Townshend to get the right size of podium and then springs for each podium because the speaker weight, (load), for the springs has to be correct for them to work correctly.
 Can be difficult to set up correctly when working with large speakers but once done and happy with the sound they are really very good.
 Levelling the stands with the speakers on them I found to be difficult and with 4 controls on each stand, at each corner, getting it souding good can be tricky. Best to start with the controls at their lowest point and increase the height of each speaker at each corner gradually. Again with 4 controls for each speaker this can be a tricky process.
 If still not working to your satisfaction then reset to lowest value and try again until it sounds right.
 They replaced in my system Stillpoint Ultra 5's that I was then able to move to some of my equipment on my rack therefore also generating improvements.
 I found them very similar to the Stillpoint 5's in performance terms giving me a similar sound.
 They work by allowing the speaker to move in all three directions, back, front and up and down.
 Max Townshend has several videos on YouTube showing the benefits of these and I believe they have been well received by Hi Fi Plus.


----------



## Silvertone4

It's odd, Rob might be able to provide feedback as to why those reviews have not taken place.

In the past Stereophile has reviewed Chord products including the Mojo.

ST


----------



## maxh22

crgreen said:


> It would be nice if Sterophile would get round to reviewing the DAVE, which is advertised in its pages. Similarly, with TAS. So far as I can tell, it's been reviewed in all the leading European hi-fi mags, and won several annual awards, but seems to only have an underground existence in the US press. Odd.







silvertone4 said:


> It's odd, Rob might be able to provide feedback as to why those reviews have not taken place.
> 
> In the past Stereophile has reviewed Chord products including the Mojo.
> 
> ST




A few days ago I recieved the latest issue from Stereophile and found out that they just reviewed Yggdrasil. The reviewer was listening to it for over a year. So he took his time doing the review. I reckon the same thing is going on with Dave. They probably have it in Queue and or are working on the review right now.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

chordguy said:


> Dave   ......   I have a set of this, size 4, for my large Proac speakers.
> You need to speak to Townshend to get the right size of podium and then springs for each podium because the speaker weight, (load), for the springs has to be correct for them to work correctly.
> Can be difficult to set up correctly when working with large speakers but once done and happy with the sound they are really very good.
> Levelling the stands with the speakers on them I found to be difficult and with 4 controls on each stand, at each corner, getting it souding good can be tricky. Best to start with the controls at their lowest point and increase the height of each speaker at each corner gradually. Again with 4 controls for each speaker this can be a tricky process.
> ...




Chordguy
Thanks for taking the time to respond with your thoughts. Is there much allowance for leveling with those corner pieces? On one side of my room up to 1/4" (6mm) would be handy.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

silvertone4 said:


> It's odd, Rob might be able to provide feedback as to why those reviews have not taken place.
> 
> In the past Stereophile has reviewed Chord products including the Mojo.
> 
> ST




Yes I think the Hugo TT also. They have on balance been very positive about Chord products in the past.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Well Stereophile must be aware of the Blu2 at least. Not sure if that's Chords photo or someone at Stereophile took a pic whilst at the show
http://www.stereophile.com/content/chord-blu-mkii-cd-transport#b3z89hLckXh1xvAq.97


----------



## ismewor

daveredref-iii said:


> I took my Dave over to a friends place this week to see what it could do for his system. He uses Quad front end, Roksan amp and Avalon speakers. So an average cost system and quite a pleasant musical sound, though We both suspected the performance was perhaps marred by bad electrics. I was expecting the Dave to blow it away but the lack of any real game change is a lesson for us all. It doesn't matter how good your kit, if you don't a) Sort out your electrics and b) sufficiently isolate the chain from start to finish then there is only so much a DAC or any other component can deliver.
> 
> This got me looking at speaker isolation and I came across this video from Townshend Engineering. It's a real eye opener as I had never heard of it or thought about the issues raised in the Video. I understand a number of the leading HIFI reviewers (Stereophile and HIFI+ included) use this product.
> http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/hi-fi-home-cinema-vibration-isolation-speaker-podiums/
> ...




Totally agree, everything on the chain is need to be correct. DAC is not everything. Digital transport start all off the its path. I'm still don't know why people using a laptop and everyday computer .


----------



## chordguy

Yes, a good amount of play with the corner controls.
 The podiums are supplied with a spanner to allow levelling, perhaps the levelling should be done before the speakers are put on the plinths? I tried levelling after adding the speakers but it didn't really work for me. I got wooden 'rollers' to roll my speakers onto the plinths, with the help of a friend.
 I have two wooden suspended floors in my room, the one that came with the house and another I laid over the top of it. initially to get a good contact for my speakers I cut out two large sections out of the floor slightly larger than my speakers and went down to the concrete and then cut small holes in the cut outs to allow for the spikes to get down to the concrete. Consequently my cut outs weren't quite level with the main floor and a couple of the podiums corners straddled the main floor and the cut outs so I got some semi soft material to put on the cut outs, (the lower section), to bring it up to the main section to level the floor for the podium. Works pretty well and I didn't hear any problems once I got the podiums set up correctly.
 There are a couple of sets on eBay, size 2 and size 3 available, from the same company I got mine, so got them at a good discount. I can't remember what speakers you are using?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

chordguy said:


> Yes, a good amount of play with the corner controls.
> The podiums are supplied with a spanner to allow levelling, perhaps the levelling should be done before the speakers are put on the plinths? I tried levelling after adding the speakers but it didn't really work for me. I got wooden 'rollers' to roll my speakers onto the plinths, with the help of a friend.
> I have two wooden suspended floors in my room, the one that came with the house and another I laid over the top of it. initially to get a good contact for my speakers I cut out two large sections out of the floor slightly larger than my speakers and went down to the concrete and then cut small holes in the cut outs to allow for the spikes to get down to the concrete. Consequently my cut outs weren't quite level with the main floor and a couple of the podiums corners straddled the main floor and the cut outs so I got some semi soft material to put on the cut outs, (the lower section), to bring it up to the main section to level the floor for the podium. Works pretty well and I didn't hear any problems once I got the podiums set up correctly.
> There are a couple of sets on eBay, size 2 and size 3 available, from the same company I got mine, so got them at a good discount. I can't remember what speakers you are using?




Haha I like your diligence chordguy. The things we do for perfection!

I am using Piega Coax 90.2 so if I take off the bottom additional spike plate they have a fairly small footprint about 26cm x 30cm


----------



## chordguy

​You could probably get away with the size 2 podium then but I would go to Townshend to confirm the podium size requirements with regard to and speaker weight and dimensions and podium spring weight required.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Cheers chordguy. They are quite weighty and very strong each having been hewn from a single block of Aluminium


----------



## izzard1982

romaz said:


> Here are a couple of shots I got of Blu Mk2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Two BNC cable coming out of Blu, only one going into DAVE?


----------



## JaZZ

izzard1982 said:


> Two BNC cable coming out of Blu, only one going into DAVE?


 
  
 There's another pair of BNC inputs right beside the AES/EBU input (at the left of it in the picture); apparently that's where the Blu 2 is connected.


----------



## izzard1982

jazz said:


> There's another pair of BNC inputs right beside the AES/EBU input (at the left of it in the picture); apparently that's where the Blu 2 is connected.


 
 Thanks JaZZ, I was too lazy to check my DAVE which is sitting right by me


----------



## romaz

izzard1982 said:


> Two BNC cable coming out of Blu, only one going into DAVE?


 
 If you look carefully, there are 3 BNCs exiting Blu and all three are connected to DAVE.  What Rob has done is he's connected Blu Mk2's single SPDIF/BNC output to DAVE's SPDIF/BNC input to allow for A/B comparisons.  This allowed the opportunity to hear the difference between 500,000 vs 1 million TAPS.


----------



## JaZZ

Have you participated at such a comparison, Roy?


----------



## romaz

jazz said:


> Have you participated at such a comparison, Roy?


 
 Yes, Marcel.  I made it to CES last weekend and I got to hear it for myself.  No M-scaler vs 500k TAPS vs 1 million TAPS and the differences were easily heard.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/6555#post_13150786


----------



## Deftone

christer said:


> Sorry but I just could not resist quoting andyv´s view of CD over at Computer Audiophile.
> It pretty much sums up my view of that medium as well with or without remote control.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Each to their own, i find having a CD collection extremely satisfying, same with LPs. I also like framing artwork.
  
 The excitement of getting a new record in the mail, the physicality, reading the through the book as you listen. All of that gone when its a digital download. How mundane it must feel to be music lover that only "owns" digital downloads or uses online streaming.


----------



## EVOLVIST

So, how is the Blu 2 + M-Scaler going to benefit me with the DAVE if I do not spin CDs? Haha! Maybe I'm just not following well enough here.


----------



## rkt31

backing up of cds in FLAC is good idea even if someone still prefers loading and playing CDs through CD player or CD transport.


----------



## Christer

deftone said:


> Each to their own, i find having a CD collection extremely satisfying, same with LPs. I also like framing artwork.
> 
> The excitement of getting a new record in the mail, the physicality, reading the through the book as you listen. All of that gone when its a digital download. How mundane it must feel to be music lover that only "owns" digital downloads or uses online streaming.


 

 I do in fact have some ten shelf-metres of LPs in my listening room back home. And although I do have a couple of undred SACDs and DVDs too I much prefer the artwork size on an LP cover over both SACDs and DVDs.
 I fully understand your enjoying physical discs as such. Apart from the tiny size of CDs it is mainly their generally unsatisfactory SQ i don´t like about them.


----------



## Deftone

christer said:


> I do in fact have some ten shelf-metres of LPs in my listening room back home. And although I do have a couple of undred SACDs and DVDs too I much prefer the artwork size on an LP cover over both SACDs and DVDs.
> I fully understand your enjoying physical discs as such. Apart from the tiny size of CDs it is mainly their generally unsatisfactory SQ i don´t like about them.




I always used to think CD only sounds ok and vinyl was king but once you get a well mastered CD and a very, very good DAC digital is superior imo.


----------



## lovethatsound

deftone said:


> I always used to think CD only sounds ok and vinyl was king but once you get a well mastered CD and a very, very good DAC digital is superior imo.


your so RIGHT☺


----------



## Christer

rob watts said:


> The Jake visit was definitely one of the highlights of the show. And because the idea was to compare the sound of the ukulele recorded a couple of weeks ago against the sound of the system, we dropped a Dave into the system. Stereophile were going around the show, and trying to see which system sounded closest to the original which is a cool idea; but the flaw is that the microphone and ADC is also part of the chain.
> 
> I have some personal interest, as my son had just started to play the ukulele, so I know the sound of his instrument quite well.
> 
> ...


 
 Don't you think the speakers used  at this comparison could be part of what you heard as well?
 Which Vienna Acoustics model is it?
 Ok we are talking  human voice and ukulele only here. But they still look  like pretty small and  square  boxes, and seem to have quite a few speaker elements with  I assume all the distorting  crossovers needed in  a typical dynamic elements, conventional box speaker. I suspect the coloration from  crossover filters and dynamic elements used may play  a part here  too.
 Try playing music via  DAVE/BLU2  with electrostatic speakers  with neither cones nor crossover filters possibly  interfering in the important  mids to treble  frequency range of a ukulele.
 Electrostatic speakers  also do transients  faster and better than any other speaker I know of.
 The best recordings and DACs deserve the very best in speakers too.


----------



## WoSoLoo

rob watts said:


> Yes it will accept DoP DSD64 and DSD128 but no more as the SPDIF is limited to 384 kHz.
> 
> Rob


thanks for your reply, can you recommand a mirco usb to bnc cable suitable for my dave connection to steamer.


----------



## Crgreen

maxh22 said:


> A few days ago I recieved the latest issue from Stereophile and found out that they just reviewed Yggdrasil. The reviewer was listening to it for over a year. So he took his time doing the review. I reckon the same thing is going on with Dave. They probably have it in Queue and or are working on the review right now.




Quite possibly, though it won't appear in the next issue. I find it difficult to understand why it might take over twelve months to evaluate, measure and write a review of the DAVE, a major product using innovative technology produced by a well-established manufacturer. Generally, that's not how the hi-fi press works. And in TAS, Robert Hartley writes about Berkeley and Meridian products as soon as he can, keeping readers up to date with new technology and advances. Given how he's waxed lyrical over both those products, I'd be interested to read what he has to say about the DAVE.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

It will be interesting to see if Blu2 is even acknowledged by the leading Hifi reviewers, given that the industry seems to have moved wholesale to streaming. It would be an irony now CD has finally fulfillid its promise that the industry was looking the other way and following a new, as yet unfulfilled, dream. 

Is it all about the money? You bet


----------



## bmichels

daveredref-iii said:


> It will be interesting to see if Blu2 is even acknowledged by the leading Hifi reviewers, given that the industry seems to have moved wholesale to streaming. It would be an irony now CD has finally fulfillid its promise that the industry was looking the other way and following a new, as yet unfulfilled, dream.
> 
> Is it all about the money? You bet


 
  
 If I buy the Blu2 it will first be for it's M-Scale possibility so that I will pot Blu2 between my Music server and my DAC (which may not be DAVE), and the CDPlaying will be an added bonus for me.


----------



## Crgreen

I'm quite sure the Blu2 will receive extensive reviews as it can be partnered with the DAVE and is the first product to employ M-Scaler technology. It's a newsworthy item and you'd expect it to be covered in the press. They'll write about whatever will fill their pages, and although CD players have fallen off, they still get reviewed, usually opening with "There are still plenty of CDs out there, and if you're looking for your last player".


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Let's hope so but you'll notice it didn't figure in the lineup of possible award winners or even mentioned in the best audio products of CES despite its undoubted groundbreaking credentials. Not even mentioned under the Chord write up and though I have no real respect for the writeups of what hifi (even less so now) they were the official sponsors and announcers of the awards.

http://www.whathifi.com/news/stars-ces-2017-best-audio-products-ces


----------



## Crgreen

Agreed, a strange omission in the coverage On the other hand, the magazine tends to focus on the cheaper end of the market, and with only ten awards, having given one to the Hugo 2 it would be difficult to give another award to a Chord product. In the past, the magazine has always been enthusiastic about Chord's gear.


----------



## miketlse

crgreen said:


> Agreed, a strange omission in the coverage On the other hand, the magazine tends to focus on the cheaper end of the market, and with only ten awards, having given one to the Hugo 2 it would be difficult to give another award to a Chord product. In the past, the magazine has always been enthusiastic about Chord's gear.


 
  
 Yes,
  
 Even on the WHF forum, there are often posts suggesting that WHF has too much favouritism for Apple products, and during the past year there were a few posts complaining about too much favouritism for Chord products when giving awards.
  
 Maybe WHF are just being cautious regarding the Blu 2, until enough users have had a chance to listen to one.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Agree with both comments. Let's hope the serious Hifi writers acknowledge Blu2 for its true achievement


----------



## jelt2359

deftone said:


> Each to their own, i find having a CD collection extremely satisfying, same with LPs. I also like framing artwork.
> 
> The excitement of getting a new record in the mail, the physicality, reading the through the book as you listen. All of that gone when its a digital download. How mundane it must feel to be music lover that only "owns" digital downloads or uses online streaming.




I envy you- you're one of the target audiences for this device then. For me, I use Roon, and I'm a huge fan. It's all about user behaviour- I'm not going to give up Roon anytime soon, not for vinyl, not for cd, not for analog tape...


----------



## Kamil21

daveredref-iii said:


> Agree with both comments. Let's hope the serious Hifi writers acknowledge Blu2 for its true achievement







crgreen said:


> Quite possibly, though it won't appear in the next issue. I find it difficult to understand why it might take over twelve months to evaluate, measure and write a review of the DAVE, a major product using innovative technology produced by a well-established manufacturer. Generally, that's not how the hi-fi press works. And in TAS, Robert Hartley writes about Berkeley and Meridian products as soon as he can, keeping readers up to date with new technology and advances. Given how he's waxed lyrical over both those products, I'd be interested to read what he has to say about the DAVE.




Notwithstanding their commercial and editorial challenges, I have a great deal of respect for these magazines, in especially Stereophile, Hifi-News and Hifi Critic. In particular because they at least make some effort to have quantitative lab measurements as well as a ranking of some sort.

Sterephile just did an online rave on Chord at CES and have reviewed other Chord products like Mojo in the past do I don't think there is any bias here. Sometimes the challenge is in obtaining review products, especially expensive ones, and to circulate them in house amongst their writers over several months. Other times, it is because they have to rotate their publishing schedule.

In this era of fake news and dubious online reviews, the golden reference for me is still Hifi Critic who are purely subscription based, dare to have their own forum, and maintain their reviewing methodology for easy access on their website.

I am not a member of the industry, just a hobbyist who depends on reviews to help make good choices.


----------



## Crgreen

Just to be clear, I wasn't accusing Sterophile of bias, only that I found the omission odd. Nothing more. The explanation might lie in what you say - though it would be strange for Chord not to have let them have a review item for such a long period when so many other magazines have been able to obtain one - but I've really no idea.


----------



## Kamil21

crgreen said:


> Just to be clear, I wasn't accusing Sterophile of bias, only that I found the omission odd. Nothing more. The explanation might lie in what you say - though it would be strange for Chord not to have let them have a review item for such a long period when so many other magazines have been able to obtain one - but I've really no idea.




No worries. Just hope Stereophile sees this and get a full review and analysis on the WTA filter as they did with MQA


----------



## Crgreen

It seems the DAVE is reviewed in the latest edition of Hi-Fi Critic, and compRed with the Berkeley Does anyone know what they had to say? There doesn't appear to be a digital subscription for the magazine.


----------



## Kamil21

crgreen said:


> It seems the DAVE is reviewed in the latest edition of Hi-Fi Critic, and compRed with the Berkeley Does anyone know what they had to say? There doesn't appear to be a digital subscription for the magazine.




There is an English excerpt of the Review here from a French website

https://www.synthese-hifi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15598&start=135


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

It would be nice to get a deeper insight into the improvements brought about by Blu2 and Dave. Has Chord moved onto a new show does anyone know?


----------



## miketlse

daveredref-iii said:


> It would be nice to get a deeper insight into the improvements brought about by Blu2 and Dave. Has Chord moved onto a new show does anyone know?


 
  

Rob Watts will be demonstraating at the singapore canjam http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/6645#post_13156353
I expect Chord will be at the bristol show at the end of feb.
  
 Don't know about any other shows


----------



## SunWarrior

kamil21 said:


> There is an English excerpt of the Review here from a French website
> 
> https://www.synthese-hifi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15598&start=135


 
 Don't see the review, even an excerpt, on that page. Just the table of contents.


----------



## miketlse

kamil21 said:


> There is an English excerpt of the Review here from a French website
> 
> https://www.synthese-hifi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15598&start=135


 
 The TOC also indicates reviews of Roon, and HiFiberry.


----------



## Kamil21

miketlse said:


> The TOC also indicates reviews of Roon, and HiFiberry.







sunwarrior said:


> Don't see the review, even an excerpt, on that page. Just the table of contents.




It's 9 posts after the Hifi Critic table of contents. The reviewer says it is 'among the best Dac's I've heard'.


----------



## Sonic77

bmichels said:


> If I buy the Blu2 it will first be for it's M-Scale possibility so that I will pot Blu2 between my Music server and my DAC (which may not be DAVE), and the CDPlaying will be an added bonus for me.


 

 ​I think people are getting stuck on the cd part of the Blu mk II, and neglecting the fact that you can stream thru it, that's what I will mostly be using it for, although 1 million taps are going to be insane when playing cd's which I like a lot of people here own lots of. I think a lot of people here would have preferred to have a streamer only using the 1 million taps, instead of having a cd attached, but Chord have already hinted that a lot of Asian countries still use cd players and from what I understand there are a lot of music lovers in Asia, (Big market)


----------



## 7ryder

sonic77 said:


> ​I think people are getting stuck on the cd part of the Blu mk II, and neglecting the fact that you can stream thru it, that's what I will mostly using it for, although 1 million taps are going to be insane when playing cd's which I like a lot of people here own lots of. I think a lot of people here would have preferred to have a streamer only using the 1 million taps, instead of having a cd attached, but Chord have already hinted that a lot of Asian countries still use cd players and from what I understand there are a lot of music lovers in Asia, (Big market)


 
 Speaking only as someone that hasn't played CDs in years, paying for something that I won't use doesn't make sense. If that is "hung up", well, I guess I'm hung up!

 Sign me up for the streamer...and as far as that goes, the smaller and less audio jewelry the better. I'm perfectly happy tucking a little black box behind my DAVE.


----------



## Sonic77

7ryder said:


> Speaking only as someone that hasn't played CDs in years, paying for something that I won't use doesn't make sense. If that is "hung up", well, I guess I'm hung up!
> 
> Sign me up for the streamer...and as far as that goes, the smaller and less audio jewelry the better. I'm perfectly happy tucking a little black box behind my DAVE.


 

 ​That may still happen, I wasn't specifically talking about you by the way, so don't be so butt hurt. My guess is that it probably wont be cheap


----------



## Crgreen

kamil21 said:


> There is an English excerpt of the Review here from a French website
> 
> https://www.synthese-hifi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15598&start=135




Merci. Tres bon!


----------



## 7ryder

sonic77 said:


> ​That may still happen, I wasn't specifically talking about you by the way, so don't be so butt hurt. My guess is that it probably wont be cheap


 
 I didn't think you were referring to me specifically...so no butt hurtedness on my end! Just adding my 2 cents here like everyone else.
  
 As for the price, while Chord needs to make a return on their investment, simpler is better and will insure a higher adoption rate by folks that aren't necessarily owners of Chord DACs (assuming it will work with other brands).


----------



## boomtube

Does connecting a re-clocking device, like the W4S,  directly onto the DAVE (no cable) give a better signal?


----------



## kennyb123

What I would love to see Chord release is a Poly that includes a scaler that gets me as many taps that they can squeeze through USB. In other words, a Roon Ready endpoint with a built-in scaler. Even if it would only get my Hugo TT up to a tenth of the DAVINA + DAVE's million taps, I think it would still offer a nice improvement. 

I don't understand this enough though to know if this would even be technically possible. But a man can dream, can't he?


----------



## kennyb123

Further thought - if I was a DAVE owner in the market for a DAVINA simply to scale music I'm streaming over via Roon, I think I'd be lobbying Chord to add an Ethernet input to the DAVINA and make it Roon Ready. Imagine how good Ethernet could sound if Rob were to focus is brilliance on getting the best from it, just as he has done witn USB.


----------



## Sonic77

7ryder said:


> I didn't think you were referring to me specifically...so no butt hurtedness on my end! Just adding my 2 cents here like everyone else.
> 
> As for the price, while Chord needs to make a return on their investment, simpler is better and will insure a higher adoption rate by folks that aren't necessarily owners of Chord DACs (assuming it will work with other brands).



I wouldn't hold my breath for that.


----------



## Articnoise

sonic77 said:


> ​I think people are getting stuck on the cd part of the Blu mk II, and neglecting the fact that you can stream thru it, that's what I will mostly be using it for, although 1 million taps are going to be insane when playing cd's which I like a lot of people here own lots of. I think a lot of people here would have preferred to have a streamer only using the 1 million taps, instead of having a cd attached, but Chord have already hinted that a lot of Asian countries still use cd players and from what I understand there are a lot of music lovers in Asia, (Big market)


 
  

 So you want to go computer or streamer -> USB -> DDC -> SPDIF -> Blu2 -> SPDIF -> DAVE.

  

 All this for a DAC, DAVE, which is said and promoted to be practically immune to the source.


----------



## Rob Watts

daveredref-iii said:


> It would be nice to get a deeper insight into the improvements brought about by Blu2 and Dave. Has Chord moved onto a new show does anyone know?


 
 Now that the dust has settled and I have had some time to collect my thoughts on the M scaler, I thought I would post some impressions, based on what people heard at the show.
  
 Firstly, some background. I first heard the 512,000 tap WTA filter in late July - and was pretty much knocked out by the changes in performance, so then started work on the full M scaler, which I got to listen too in late November. The final version, once all the audibly changing bugs was fixed, was last Christmas eve. So we are talking about very recent developments.
  
 Now part of the difficulties about designing is appreciating the scale of what one achieves. Its easy to say this improvement has this effect in SQ and sometimes it easy to get tunnel vision and to exaggerate how significant a change actually represents, and I am very aware of these dangers; ones own natural enthusiasm can let one get carried away. But assessing scale of changes is vitally important - just to give you an example, it took 3 months to code verify and test the M scaler - and this is based upon merely modifying from 512,000 to the full 1M taps. So you are making decisions that will have important SQ consequences based upon previous listening tests, so balancing the importance of different tests is crucial. I always find it amusing when a audio companies blurb talks about no compromise this or that; design is always about balancing resources to get the best performance you can; compromise, fine tuning or balancing is essential part of the process. So getting a sense of scale based on listening tests is absolutely crucial, as I need to be able to accurately predict at the design stage what a decision will mean. But appreciating how much of a difference actually represents is difficult - for example, when listening to depth, it often just resolves down to A being deeper than B. But what of listening test conducted 2 years ago where C was deeper than D? How can you relate A improvement to the C improvement? This is where getting a perspective on the scale of a change is really important - and it becomes crucial when designing lower cost devices such as Mojo, where you are limited by cost and resources and important compromises have to be made.
  
 So whenever I get to do a listening test, appreciating the scale of the change is vital, as the results will get logged into my mind and used maybe in design decisions 5 years hence. Now with the M scaler I was already knocked out by the change - I knew that increasing tap length would sound better, but I had not expected it to be transformational - and my listening tests and actually using it to enjoy music was telling me this. Because it was so big, I doubted my own opinion, and wanted others to hear it and get their feedback, so I can get a more accurate measure on the scale of the changes. I had been talking to @romaz during the process, and I was deliberately being neutral about the change and my intense excitement, so that when he heard it at CES I would get a unbiased view.
  
 Now trying to asses scale is important, but you need to be aware that listening in strange surroundings, with unfamiliar gear reduces ones sensitivity, so listening at home will give a much more profound and accurate view. It's one reason why we tend not to do AB tests at trade only shows, as the dealers and press will get to grips with it in their own homes soon enough.
  
 So Romaz (Roy) was only the second audiophile to hear the M scaler properly - and you can read for yourselves his impressions. And doing the AB was amazing - you could immediately hear the effects of plugging the M scaler in - and absolutely everything improved. So much so that after 1 minute Roy declared "I gotta get one of those."
  
 Next came up was @jude and I used a 1972 Decca recording of Vaughn Williams Fantasia on a theme by Tomas Tallis. Now this is recorded in London's Kingsway Hall, which has the underground nearby, so you often get to hear the rumble of subway trains. Now when the M scaler was switched on, you could hear a collective gasp by all those present - the rumble sounded *completely* different - before it was this vague noise - now you actually perceive the pitch of the rumble. Frankly, it was really weird. Next we noticed small ticks and noises from the musicians, and these little disturbances were really clear and precisely located in space.
  
 So I was now getting pretty excited, and was demoing the differences whenever I could. The reaction was universal - everything changes, and it isn't small. Two people commented that the size (scale) of the change was bigger than Hugo to Dave (not sure about that but I can't disagree as it could be). One guy jokingly said I had distorted the direct feed - and I know what he meant by that, but the direct feed is bit perfect. So what changes? The first thing you notice is just clarity - everything is so much clearer and more transparent. Timbre variations are much better, together with pitch reproduction of bass notes. Rhythm's are much easier to follow, and instrument inner detail is easier to hear. Instrument separation and focus is much better, and its much easier to follow rapid variations. Now all of these are expected; they are the usual stuff from improving timing of transients accuracy. But what is also better is depth perception, which is usually nothing to do with timing but small signal amplitude linearity. Now this is better because I have done some more things than simply improve the tap length. One of the curious things was switching on the HF filter with Dave - with 44.1 it should not sound better - and this immediately told me that I needed to improve the WTA filter stop-band performance, and this was done by increasing the bit depth on the quantised coefficients. This worked; now M scaler sounds better with the HF filter off (exactly as it should do). But one unexpected benefit to this has been better depth perception.
  
 Regrets? Yes - I should have trusted my gut reaction, that the M scaler was a profound musical and SQ change, even though my intellect was telling me it's only two and a half bits more accurate. And when launching the M scaler we should have done an AB test to the press at the launch so they can actually appreciate how big the change is. Chord will be doing AB demos of it at the Bristol Hi-Fi show in the UK in February.
  
 Rob


----------



## TheAttorney

An excellent explanantion Rob. And good on you for coming up with another ground breaking product.
  
 And of course this is early days, so we can't expect all answers to all questions.
 However, I hope you can appreciate that this can leave a sizeable proportion of Dave owners somewhat apprehensive. Those that have moved away from CDs.
  
 We had a certain expectation that Dave was upgradeable if something new came along that justified the effort.
 So the first such thing that has come along in practice is another £8k box that is clearly not designed for those non-CD owners.
 And that has made some of Dave's commponents redundant.
 And that needs more stacking space for no visible functionality (if you don'r count all the CD functions).
  
 So, I repeat my suggestion to get those million taps into Dave as a chargeble upgrade.
 Someone replied that that would be impractical. But I'm just stating a customer requirement- I leave it to the clever boys to come up with a solution.
 And if that is truely impractical, then maybe a smaller box, with networking inputs, that can be tucked away round the back.
 EDIT: Or another option would be a flat topped base that Dave could sit on with minimal impact to rack space.
  
 As I said, I'm not expecting immediate answers, but I hope you'll be thinking about it.


----------



## JaZZ

I'm with you, _Attorney_. I'd like to have an affordable M-scaler in a compact size, now that Rob and Roy have made our mouths water.


----------



## bmichels

jazz said:


> I'm with you, _Attorney_. I'd like to have an affordable M-scaler in a compact size, now that Rob and Roy have made our mouths water.


 
  
 AGREE, and it should have also *USB input*, not just *BNC S/PDIF**,* so that it can be compatible with all Music servers


----------



## AndrewOld

> Originally Posted by *Rob Watts* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ..
> 
> ...


 
 It has always struck me as strange that the HF filter improves DAVE with 44.1. Now that you have found an explanation and a solution will it be possible to incorporate this change into the DAVE?


----------



## AndrewOld

jazz said:


> I'm with you, _Attorney_. I'd like to have an affordable M-scaler in a compact size, now that Rob and Roy have made our mouths water.


 

 I agree also. I've got a DAVE and it is a wonder. I would like the M-Scaler technology, but absolutely not interested in buying a redundant CD player or for that matter an ADC. Dropping the CD aspect of the BLU2 must surely reduce the cost substantially. Simple casework would be fine. Sufficient inputs to be viable domestically, including USB, with a remote control that actually lets you select them directly, and also bearing in mind interfacing optimally with whatever future Chord streamer evolves from the Poly.  And as a small extra, I would also hope that the USB input would not need third party add ons like the Jitterbug to improve performance.


----------



## TheAttorney

andrewold said:


> It has always struck me as strange that the HF filter improves DAVE with 44.1.


 
 I've never found the HF filter to improve DAVE wiith 44.1. At best, it merely changes the sound, which might suit some preferences or recording quality.


----------



## AndrewOld

theattorney said:


> I've never found the HF filter to improve DAVE wiith 44.1. At best, it merely changes the sound, which might suit some preferences or recording quality.


 

 Just quoting the man himself:

  
  


rob watts said:


> One of the curious things was switching on the HF filter with Dave - with 44.1 it should not sound better - and this immediately told me that I needed to improve the WTA filter stop-band performance, and this was done by increasing the bit depth on the quantised coefficients. This worked; now M scaler sounds better with the HF filter off (exactly as it should do).
> 
> Rob


 
  
  
  
 If the DAVE should sound better with the HF filter off, then it should do. Now that Rob has figured out why it didn't it seems reasonable to ask whether this new knowledge can be incorporated into the DAVE.


----------



## JaZZ

andrewold said:


> theattorney said:
> 
> 
> > I've never found the HF filter to improve DAVE wiith 44.1. At best, it merely changes the sound, which might suit some preferences or recording quality.
> ...


 
  
 I belong to those who prefer the HF filter to be off (at least most of the time) – call it preference or a matter of synergy with my system. However, the most simple solution would be to have it switched on instead of sending your DAVE in for an FPGA update.


----------



## Brushane

rob watts said:


> Next came up was @jude and I used a 1972 Decca recording of Vaughn Williams Fantasia on a theme by Tomas Tallis. Now this is recorded in London's Wigmore Hall, which has the underground nearby, so you often get to hear the rumble of subway trains.


 
  
 Thanks for the music tip. A quick search led to a purchasable 16/44 FLAC. A very nice piece of music indeed and a nice recording. Evident also on the Mojo.


----------



## miketlse

Just thinking out loud here.
  
 There is already a thread for music that sounds good with the Mojo http://www.head-fi.org/t/802832/mojos-greatest-hits
  
 Does anyone think it would be worth creating a similar thread for music that really reveals the abilities of the DAVE plus soon the Blu 2?
  
 It could prove a useful resource to capture tracks such as Vaughn Williams Fantasia, all in one common thread, making them easy to locate, especially for new DAVE owners.


----------



## Sonic77

I'm going to be spinning cd's like crazy! Yeah cd's! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Quote: 





rob watts said:


> Now that the dust has settled and I have had some time to collect my thoughts on the M scaler, I thought I would post some impressions, based on what people heard at the show.
> 
> Firstly, some background. I first heard the 512,000 tap WTA filter in late July - and was pretty much knocked out by the changes in performance, so then started work on the full M scaler, which I got to listen too in late November. The final version, once all the audibly changing bugs was fixed, was last Christmas eve. So we are talking about very recent developments.
> 
> ...


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I wouldn't hold your breath on much cheaper without the CD. The disc player is a tried and tested reliable and capable unit but it is also a defunct unit when I last looked (no longer in production), no related R&D to recover, whereas the M Scaler is superior in capability and significantly so in processor count than Dave which costs £8k on its own.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

It would seem to make sense for Chord to design an M Scaler with streaming capability included perhaps?


----------



## AndrewOld

daveredref-iii said:


> It would seem to make sense for Chord to design an M Scaler with streaming capability included perhaps?




Absolutely! Last time I looked it was 2017. Pretty much everything in your home can be connected to your network. Your PC, your printer, your tv, your phone, your lightbulbs, your watch, your cooker. Your music is on your network, or out there on the web. Your DAC should be on your network. USB is just a silly way to get data to a DAC. s/pdif is even sillier. And CD is ludicrous. Chord is very very late to the streaming party, Hope they get the Poly to deliver, and hope it evolves into a viable domestic streamer which of course could be build into the M Scaler. I am much more likely to buy an M Scaler that at least has provision for the addition of a streamer than an M Scaler with a CD player (which I haven't used for more than a decade) or an ADC which I will never use.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

andrewold said:


> Absolutely! Last time I looked it was 2017. Pretty much everything in your home can be connected to your network. Your PC, your printer, your tv, your phone, your lightbulbs, your watch, your cooker. Your music is on your network, or out there on the web. Your DAC should be on your network. USB is just a silly way to get data to a DAC. s/pdif is even sillier. Chord is very very late to the streaming party, Hope they get the Poly to deliver, and hope it evolves into a viable domestic streamer which of course could be build into the M Scaler. I am much more likely to buy an M Scaler that at least has provision for the addition of a streamer than an M Scaler with a CD player (which I haven't used for more than a decade) or an ADC which I will never use.




I am still wedded to Red Book, though I may stream it one day but I rather suspect right now Blu2 CD will give streaming front ends a run for their money at any resolution. That will be good enough for me at least until further streaming Protocols are agreed, streaming quality further refined, SSD prices are cheaper and greater availability of catalogues at higher resolutions than Red Book are established. With the superb work done by Rob Watts, Red Book is finally fulfilling its original promise it seems. I have waited a long time for this.


----------



## bmichels

daveredref-iii said:


> I am still wedded to Red Book, though I may stream it one day but I rather suspect right now Blu2 CD will give streaming front ends a run for their money at any resolution. That will be good enough for me at least until further streaming Protocols are agreed, streaming quality further refined, SSD prices are cheaper and greater availability of catalogues at higher resolutions than Red Book are established. With the superb work done by Rob Watts, Red Book is finally fulfilling its original promise it seems. I have waited a long time for this.


 
  
 Yes indeed, the Blu2 could be a very good front-ent between a music server and a DAC.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Only problem is that the Blu2 only accept BNC SBDIF, so many music server cannot easily be used with the Blu2...


----------



## AndrewOld

daveredref-iii said:


> I am still wedded to Red Book, though I may stream it one day but I rather suspect right now Blu2 CD will give streaming front ends a run for their money at any resolution. That will be good enough for me at least until further streaming Protocols are agreed, streaming quality further refined, SSD prices are cheaper and greater availability of catalogues at higher resolutions than Red Book are established. With the superb work done by Rob Watts, Red Book is finally fulfilling its original promise it seems. I have waited a long time for this.




So what are people who ripped all their CDs a decade or more ago, or who subscribe to a red book quality streaming service like Tidal or Qobuz, or who have bought red book or higher quality downloads going to do? Possibly down sample and then Burn their rips or downloads onto cd so they can play them on a Blu2? You must be joking! Or buy a USB to s/pdif converter? Yuk! It is 2017! You should get data to your DAC the same way you get data from anywhere on your network or the Internet to pretty much any device - Ethernet or wifi.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

andrewold said:


> So what are people who ripped all their CDs a decade or more ago, or who subscribe to a red book quality streaming service like Tidal or Qobuz, or who have bought red book or higher quality downloads going to do? Possibly down sample and then Burn their rips or downloads onto cd so they can play them on a Blu2? You must be joking! Or buy a USB to s/pdif converter? Yuk! It is 2017! You should get data to your DAC the same way you get data from anywhere on your network or the Internet to pretty much any device - Ethernet or wifi.




That's not my problem or anything I have responsibility for Andrew. I merely explained why I am sticking with Red Book for the time being and therefore welcome this product. I am not sure why you would aim your dissatisfaction at me.


----------



## EVOLVIST

bmichels said:


> If I buy the Blu2 it will first be for it's M-Scale possibility so that I will pot Blu2 between my Music server and my DAC (which may not be DAVE), and the CDPlaying will be an added bonus for me.




How will you do this?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

bmichels said:


> Yes indeed, the Blu2 could be a very good front-ent between a music server and a DAC.
> 
> Only problem is that the Blu2 only accept BNC SBDIF, so many music server cannot easily be used with the Blu2...




Clearly there is demand for further diversification of the offering and given Chords record I am sure they will fill that vacuum. Maybe they have something more grand in mind. I wouldn't put it past them.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

To be fair to Chord, they are bringing new products out at an impressive rate these days. He quality of which is almost universally heralded. The key people must be working crazy hours these days. I have nothing but admiration for their achievements.


----------



## AndrewOld

It's probably too much to expect Chord to deliver a world class streaming solution in the near future - judging from remarks on the Poly thread they have a way to go on the learning curve. Fair enough, a DAC that defines and progresses the state of the art is more than enough for one company. But just please please don't hobble the MScaler with a CD player that many people will not remember how to use, or an ADC which even more people will have no use for.


----------



## lovethatsound

andrewold said:


> It's probably too much to expect Chord to deliver a world class streaming solution in the near future - judging from remarks on the Poly thread they have a way to go on the learning curve. Fair enough, a DAC that defines and progresses the state of the art is more than enough for one company. But just please please don't hobble the MScaler with a CD player that many people will not remember how to use, or an ADC which even more people will have no use for.


lots of people still use cd players,why would anyone want to use a pc or laptop as a source.And don't forget at the moment the blu 2 is only thing with daul outputs on it,so really to get the best sound quality from the blu 2 and Dave,you need cd's.


----------



## Sonic77

> Originally Posted by *bmichels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Yes indeed, the Blu2 could be a very good front-ent between a music server and a DAC.
> 
> ...


 

 ​I am going to be using a Legato usb-spdif asynchronous  converter. It operates at 44.1 kHz only, but that's ok with me, cd's are 44.1 kHz too, it's bnc outputs at true 75 ohm impedance. I know there are other convertors out there.


----------



## AndrewOld

lovethatsound said:


> lots of people still use cd players,why would anyone want to use a pc or laptop as a source.And don't forget at the moment the blu 2 is only thing with daul outputs on it,so really to get the best sound quality from the blu 2 and Dave,you need cd's.




My music could be stored anywhere on my network; on a PC, a Mac or a NAS. It could come from many places on the Internet. It doesn't make any sense to me to have to connect a pc to a DAVE in order to get music to it. I don't have to connect a PC to a printer in order to get data to print. I'd like my DAVE on my network just like my printer is on my network. And I'd like to play music to my DAVE from anywhere on my network or the Internet just like I can print a pdf to my printer from anywhere on my network or the Internet. Many decent hifi companies are offering network streamers; a DAC that goes on your network just like your printer,

And it is not the case that to get the best sound quality from the Blu2 and DAVE you need CDs. Rob himself uses a USB to spdif converter to connect his laptop to the Blu2. Not exactly elegant. The Cd drive is redundant in this configuration. It doesn't matter to him, because I dare say he knows a bloke at the factory and can get his Blu2 at a good price. But the rest of us would need to find £8k and for some of us that is not so easy.

But a straight MScaler at a reasonable price would do me; I could continue to use my laptop or a third party streamer to drive it until such time as Chord had a decent streamer.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Is this the first Chord amp with built in Dac?
https://www.avforums.com/review/chord-electronics-cpm-2800-mkii-integrated-stereo-amplifier-review.13157


----------



## Sonic77

andrewold said:


> My music could be stored anywhere on my network; on a PC, a Mac or a NAS. It could come from many places on the Internet. It doesn't make any sense to me to have to connect a pc to a DAVE in order to get music to it. I don't have to connect a PC to a printer in order to get data to print. I'd like my DAVE on my network just like my printer is on my network. And I'd like to play music to my DAVE from anywhere on my network or the Internet just like I can print a pdf to my printer from anywhere on my network or the Internet. Many decent hifi companies are offering network streamers; a DAC that goes on your network just like your printer,
> 
> And it is not the case that to get the best sound quality from the Blu2 and DAVE you need CDs. Rob himself uses a USB to spdif converter to connect his laptop to the Blu2. Not exactly elegant. The Cd drive is redundant in this configuration. It doesn't matter to him, because I dare say he knows a bloke at the factory and can get his Blu2 at a good price. But the rest of us would need to find £8k and for some of us that is not so easy.
> 
> But a straight MScaler at a reasonable price would do me; I could continue to use my laptop or a third party streamer to drive it until such time as Chord had a decent streamer.



You know what i want? I want a Ferrari, that i can afford, but dang them they keep making those expensive cars aaahhhh!


----------



## AndrewOld

sonic77 said:


> ​I am going to be using a Legato usb-spdif asynchronous  converter. It operates at 44.1 kHz only, but that's ok with me, cd's are 44.1 kHz too, it's bnc outputs at true 75 ohm impedance. I know there are other convertors out there.




So if someone gives you a 24/192 studio master you can't play it? CDs are 16/44.1 because they have to be. Masters don't have to be, they are usually much higher resolution, and there are plenty available. Why wouldn't you want to be able to play them?


----------



## lovethatsound

andrewold said:


> My music could be stored anywhere on my network; on a PC, a Mac or a NAS. It could come from many places on the Internet. It doesn't make any sense to me to have to connect a pc to a DAVE in order to get music to it. I don't have to connect a PC to a printer in order to get data to print. I'd like my DAVE on my network just like my printer is in my network. And I'd like to play music to my DAVE from anywhere on my network or the Internet just like I can print a pdf to my printer from anywhere on my network or the Internet.
> 
> And it is not the case that to get the best sound quality from the Blu2 and DAVE you need CDs. Rob himself uses a USB to spdif converter to connect his laptop to the Blu2. Not exactly elegant. The Cd drive is redundant in this configuration. It doesn't matter to him, because I dare say he knows a bloke at the factory and can get his Blu2 at a good price. But the rest of us would need to find £8k and for some of us that is not so easy.
> 
> But a straight MScaler at a reasonable price would do me; I could continue to use my laptop or a third party streamer to drive it until such time as Chord had a decent streamer.


The blu 2 has daul output on it,which will give you the full bandwidth of sound.if you use any other device that dont have daul outputs on it,so say you only have one bnc or usb output on your device you would only get half the bandwidth.How many devices out their have daul outputs on them?i can only think of one company who does that,and it's called Chord electronics


----------



## Gerontius

rob watts said:


> ..........
> 
> Next came up was @jude and I used a 1972 Decca recording of Vaughn Williams Fantasia on a theme by Tomas Tallis. Now this is recorded in London's Wigmore Hall, which has the underground nearby, so you often get to hear the rumble of subway trains.
> 
> ...


 
 O.T. If it was the Neville Marriner recording you are referring to, I think you'll find it was the Kingsway Hall, not the Wigmore Hall. Kingsway Hall was a favourite venue for Decca recordings because of its fine acoustics for orchestral and choral music but it was unfortunately plagued by rumbling noise from two branches of the Piccadilly line that ran almost directly underneath. Sometimes recording sessions were interrupted to allow the trains to pass before continuing but this was not always practicable. Alas, Kingsway Hall no longer exists. The site is now home to a luxury hotel and only the name lingers on.


----------



## izzard1982

From Rob's post, it seems some of the knowledge gained from the Blu 2 and DAVINA projects is possible to apply to DAVE, I'm not sure whether Chord has done it before to other products, but as a current DAVE owner, it would be great if Chord would offer an upgrade program so we can taste the sound that Rob's latest code offers.


----------



## ThatPhil

Both of Chords previous TOTL desktop dacs the DAC64 & QBD76 had upgraded versions so DAVE probably will as well.


----------



## esimms86

Here are 2 computer audio options for Blu mk2:

1)audiphilleo 1 special edition with uptone Audio ultra cap lps-1 power supply for 1494 usd; lps-1 is more expensive than the audiophilleo pure power which is another power option; either combo gives you pcm to 384 and dsd128(Blu mk2 maxes out at dsd128); additional music player/streamer software required
2)auralic aries with coax out doesn't require usb-spdif conversion but maxes out at 192 for pcm and dsd64; Tidal ready music player/streamer software included; auralic aries with power supply upgrade costs 1599 usd

Either way you're looking at 1500 plus dollars (not counting BNC cables)to add to your £7,995 Blu mk2


----------



## bmichels

esimms86 said:


> Here are 2 computer audio options for Blu mk2:
> 
> 1)audiphilleo...
> 2)auralic aries with coax out doesn't require usb-spdif conversion ....


 
  
 Stupid question:
  
 Is the COAX SPDIF output (of the ARIES) the same thing than the BNC SPDIF required by the Blu2 ?   No adapter needed ?


----------



## 7ryder

andrewold said:


> Absolutely! Last time I looked it was 2017. Pretty much everything in your home can be connected to your network. Your PC, your printer, your tv, your phone, your lightbulbs, your watch, your cooker. Your music is on your network, or out there on the web. Your DAC should be on your network. USB is just a silly way to get data to a DAC. s/pdif is even sillier. And CD is ludicrous. Chord is very very late to the streaming party, Hope they get the Poly to deliver, and hope it evolves into a viable domestic streamer which of course could be build into the M Scaler. I am much more likely to buy an M Scaler that at least has provision for the addition of a streamer than an M Scaler with a CD player (which I haven't used for more than a decade) or an ADC which I will never use.




Late to the streaming party? Surely you jest, they've had a streamer since 2012 http://www.stereophile.com/content/chord-launches-dsx1000-network-player#d8SDkXIwGl1uGflP.97


----------



## Sonic77

esimms86 said:


> Here are 2 computer audio options for Blu mk2:
> 
> 1)audiphilleo 1 special edition with uptone Audio ultra cap lps-1 power supply for 1494 usd; lps-1 is more expensive than the audiophilleo pure power which is another power option; either combo gives you pcm to 384 and dsd128(Blu mk2 maxes out at dsd128); additional music player/streamer software required
> 2)auralic aries with coax out doesn't require usb-spdif conversion but maxes out at 192 for pcm and dsd64; Tidal ready music player/streamer software included; auralic aries with power supply upgrade costs 1599 usd
> ...


 

 The audiphilleo may be the way to go for me to play higher rez files.
 The aries looks to have a coax rca connection rather then a bnc connection.


----------



## esimms86

sonic77 said:


> The audiphilleo may be the way to go for me to play higher rez files.
> The aries looks to have a coax rca connection rather then a bnc connection.




Sonic77, you're right, it's coax rca.


----------



## Deftone

rob watts said:


> Now that the dust has settled and I have had some time to collect my thoughts on the M scaler, I thought I would post some impressions, based on what people heard at the show.
> 
> Firstly, some background. I first heard the 512,000 tap WTA filter in late July - and was pretty much knocked out by the changes in performance, so then started work on the full M scaler, which I got to listen too in late November. The final version, once all the audibly changing bugs was fixed, was last Christmas eve. So we are talking about very recent developments.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Incredible, at this point Rob (using 1million taps)  i assume you are easily hearing details and faults the mastering engineers would not even notice.


----------



## Deftone

daveredref-iii said:


> With the superb work done by Rob Watts, Red Book is finally fulfilling its original promise it seems. I have waited a long time for this.


 
  
 Yes the Dave + Blu could possibly mean "perfect sound forever".


----------



## romaz

articnoise said:


> So you want to go computer or streamer -> USB -> DDC -> SPDIF -> Blu2 -> SPDIF -> DAVE.
> 
> 
> 
> All this for a DAC, DAVE, which is said and promoted to be practically immune to the source.


 
  
 I have found the DAVE to be immune to bad sources but fully capable of revealing the finer qualities of exceptional sources, especially a low impedance source such as an sMS-200 or microRendu and especially when powered by a low impedance PSU such as my Paul Hynes SR7 or LPS-1.  Having listened and compared tvarious SPDIF sources such as the RedNet, my current USB setup is what sounds best in my system and the difference is notable enough that I am not looking to leave my current USB setup once my Blu Mk 2 arrives.  And so, yes, USB > DDC > SPDIF > Blu2 is the path I will choose to take unless something better comes along.
  
  Quote:


sonic77 said:


> The audiphilleo may be the way to go for me to play higher rez files.
> The aries looks to have a coax rca connection rather then a bnc connection.


 
  
 I have tried the Audiophilleo 1 and 2 with PP and it didn't sound that great with my DAVE (a step down compared to USB direct).
  
 Reliable sources who have heard both suggest the following less expensive converter, the Singxer SU-1 (made in China) sounds even better than either of the Audiophilleos, the Mutec MC-3+ USB or the Berkeley Alpha USB and for considerably less money ($400 USD).  It is easily modifiable to be powered by an even better 5V PSU such as an LPS-1 or Paul Hynes.  In fact, a mod that includes the LPS-1 is already in the works and should be available for sale shortly by a U.S. company.  Furthermore, it can handle up to 24/352 PCM and up to DSD256 and has both RCA and BNC out and so this is one converter I am expecting to try.
  
 https://kitsunehifi.com/product/singxersu1black/
  
 https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/singxer-su-1-usb-digital-interface-with-xmos-xu208-cpld-dsd256-dop.html


----------



## ThatPhil

daveredref-iii said:


> Red Book is finally fulfilling its original promise it seems. I have waited a long time for this.


 
 And it only took 35 years.


----------



## icebear

deftone said:


> Yes the Dave + Blu could possibly mean "perfect sound forever".


 





 Naturally there will be a QMx2 version in 2 years, i.e. 4 million taps per channel (what ever these taps are) and a new next generation What filter.
 There is no forever ...ever.


----------



## Sonic77

romaz said:


> I have found the DAVE to be immune to bad sources but fully capable of revealing the finer qualities of exceptional sources, especially a low impedance source such as an sMS-200 or microRendu and especially when powered by a low impedance PSU such as my Paul Hynes SR7 or LPS-1.  Having listened and compared tvarious SPDIF sources such as the RedNet, my current USB setup is what sounds best in my system and the difference is notable enough that I am not looking to leave my current USB setup once my Blu Mk 2 arrives.  And so, yes, USB > DDC > SPDIF > Blu2 is the path I will choose to take unless something better comes along.
> 
> 
> I have tried the Audiophilleo 1 and 2 with PP and it didn't sound that great with my DAVE (a step down compared to USB direct).
> ...


 

 ​That's good to know, I plugged in my Legato and found that your right, usb direct was better also with the Dave.
 I'll check out those links. Thanks!


----------



## drbobbybones

sonic77 said:


> ​That's good to know, I plugged in my Legato and found that your right, usb direct was better also with the Dave.
> I'll check out those links. Thanks!


 

 I have also recently found out that different USB cables seem to affect the sound quite a bit.  My 5 dollar Amazon basics USB cable that lights up on both ends seems to be MUCH better than the one that was provided with the DAVE unit.  It also seems to outperform a more expensive audiophile cable that I own as well (Wireworld).  Color me surprised, as I was very skeptical that these things matter at all.


----------



## Christer

deftone said:


> Incredible, at this point Rob (using 1million taps)  i assume you are easily hearing details and faults the mastering engineers would not even notice.


 

 Hmm, I think you are probably jumping  to some  not quite correct  conclusions?
 For those things to be heard they must  be on the mastertape in the first place! How else could they have been copied digitally?And I also suspect that if one would have played say a  NOT bandwidth limited 24/96 direct digital transfer/copy of that mastertape some of those things could  have been even more evident than from playing a 16/44.1 digital decimated bandwidth limited copy of the analogue master tape.
 The things mentioned here are also often evident on LPs  played via a good system,although in many cases underground rumble and such   was filtered away  for release on LP.
 But now when  digital transfers /copies are made  directly from analogue mastertapes consumers get to hear things before only heard by mastering engineers before "setting the record straight" to quote just  one legendary engineer from Decca. 
 One of the really good things with true hi res transfers from analogue is that they are closer to the mastertape than ANY rbcd ever was.
 Ok if you are willing to pay 8k for BLU 2 it may well deliver basically the same to most ears. But the fact remains that it is a bandwidth limited  version, not an  exact full frequency digital copy of the analogue master with any possible hf  energy harmonics and such abruptly cut off at 22khz.
 Mind you the early DECCA LPs boasted ffrr as 16-16khz if I remember correctly and yes some early 60s recordings still sound superb in many respects. But with a  not very impressive  dynamic range compared to modern digital.
 I still suspect that one of the reasons  both analogue direct cut LPs and hi res digital sometimes sound more  realistic than 16/44.1 is  partly hf content above 22khz.
 I also think Wigmore Hall was mainly used for chamber music not orchestral music recordings.But it is interesting  to read that they are falling back to classic 70s DECCA recordings as a kind of reference for realistic  sound.
 I have MANY of those both on LPs and a growing number also as 24/96 downloads and one good thing apart from more resolution  than the rbcd transfer of those classics, the 24/96 adds to the equation is often a wider  dynamic range than was originally squeezed onto LPs.
 In other words one step closer to the master.
 Few LPs apart from the famous direct cuts of Sheffield Labs and some other labels have a dynamic range above 55dB.
 Which was still a lot, compared to the 20/25dB range of most pop and rock.
 If it really sounds as good as hyped here I'd love to have a reasonably priced DAC that includes whatever the Mscaler does in BLu 2. But I have absolutely no need whatsoever, for a  rbcd  disc only player.


----------



## x RELIC x

drbobbybones said:


> I have also recently found out that different USB cables seem to affect the sound quite a bit.  My 5 dollar Amazon basics USB cable that lights up on both ends seems to be *MUCH better* than the one that was provided with the DAVE unit.  It also seems to *outperform *a more expensive audiophile cable that I own as well (Wireworld).  Color me surprised, as I was very skeptical that these things matter at all.




"Better" means absolutely nothing without a description. Better for you perhaps, but please expand on what "better" is for others to get an idea of what you hear if making such a statement.


----------



## drbobbybones

x relic x said:


> "Better" means *absolutely nothing* without a description. Better for you perhaps, but please expand on what "better" is for others to get an idea of what you hear if making such a statement.


 
 I disagree that it means *absolutely nothing*, but I see your point.
  
 For me, the Amazon USB cable has better bass impact and definition than the other two cables.  The Wireworld cable has the loudest treble response which was was detrimental for me as I am using a HD 800 through this setup.  The included cable is the reference.  Your mileage obviously will vary based on a lot of factors in your particular setup. 
  
 My point is that I was surprised that USB cables made a difference at all.  I've always been skeptical that anything transmitted over digital cable would change anything, especially something like a USB cable which has error checking on both ends.


----------



## Rob Watts

gerontius said:


> rob watts said:
> 
> 
> > ..........
> ...


 
 Thank-you for the correction, you are right.


----------



## x RELIC x

drbobbybones said:


> I disagree that it means *absolutely nothing*, but I see your point.
> 
> For me, the Amazon USB cable has better bass impact and definition than the other two cables.  The Wireworld cable has the loudest treble response which was was detrimental for me as I am using a HD 800 through this setup.  The included cable is the reference.  Your mileage obviously will vary based on a lot of factors in your particular setup.
> 
> My point is that, I was surprised that USB cables made a difference at all.  I've always been skeptical that anything transmitted over digital cable would change anything, especially something like a USB cable which has error checking on both ends.




Thanks for expanding.


----------



## izzard1982

thatphil said:


> Both of Chords previous TOTL desktop dacs the DAC64 & QBD76 had upgraded versions so DAVE probably will as well.


 
 Thanks for the info, looking forward to DAVE's


----------



## ThatPhil

Could be a while, the QBD76 and the QBD76HDSD were released 5 years apart.


----------



## rkt31

there are some not very expensive universal players and dap which read flac high resolution files  and red book content via usb or sd card and output via coaxial which imho can be fed to blu mk2.


----------



## jelt2359

esimms86 said:


> Here are 2 computer audio options for Blu mk2:
> 
> 1)audiphilleo 1 special edition with uptone Audio ultra cap lps-1 power supply for 1494 usd; lps-1 is more expensive than the audiophilleo pure power which is another power option; either combo gives you pcm to 384 and dsd128(Blu mk2 maxes out at dsd128); additional music player/streamer software required
> 2)auralic aries with coax out doesn't require usb-spdif conversion but maxes out at 192 for pcm and dsd64; Tidal ready music player/streamer software included; auralic aries with power supply upgrade costs 1599 usd
> ...


 
 Don't forget the Mutec 3+ USB.


----------



## analogmusic

christer said:


> Hmm, I think you are probably jumping  to some  not quite correct  conclusions?
> For those things to be heard they must  be on the mastertape in the first place! How else could they have been copied digtally?And I also suspect that if one would have played say a  NOT bandwidth limited 24/96 direct digital transfer/copy of that mastertape some of those things could  have been even more evident than from playing a 16/44.1 digital decimated bandwidth limited copy of the analogue master tape.
> The things mentioned here are also often evident on LPs  played via a good system,although in many cases underground rumble and such   was filtered away  for release on LP.
> But now when  digital transfers /copies are made  directly from analogue mastertapes consumers get to hear things before only heard by mastering engineers before "setting the record straight" to quote just  one legendary engineer from Decca.
> ...


 
  
 Me too, I have no use for a RBCD player.
  
 Also modern digital recordings are maybe mastered for Itunes/Iphones/Android phones anyway (we are talking about 2016 Pop/Rock) so I am not sure I would be needing Mscaler to play the latest Album from Bon Jovi. I have the Vinyl of his latest Album (this house is not for sale), and Dave is quite a bit better than the Vinyl already. There is no detail on the Vinyl that I cannot already hear on Dave and for that matter even on Mojo !
  
 For instance listen to "you know you like it" by DJ Snake and Aluna George, and this song plays with good clarity on almost all 2016 DAC's (of course MUCH better on Dave), but there is no background rumble of trains that I need an Mscaler for on this song. What Dave brings to the table is the musicality from timing of transients and of course the massive soundstage from the -350 DB noise shaper. So not having heard Mscaler, I am curious how it performs on this particular song.
  
 I am still very interested to hear Mscaler, and very happy that Rob has managed to achieve a million taps, but like others, I too wish for an Mscaler that costs much less than 8000 GBP.  I do not need any kind of expensive casework for the Mscaler, so if any money can be saved there, I hope Chord will consider this.
  
 In the meantime, Dave plays music very nice to my ears.
  
 Also the logic that some Rich audiophiles won't consider Dave because of the price is just Flawed.
  
 I remember the 100 Inch Panasonic Plasma at 100,000 dollars. It was completely over priced, and maybe some people bought a few of those (I do wonder what they think now in 2017 of that purchase), but nowadays a middle class family can afford a 85 inch LED TV. 
  
 I hope my post will be taken in a positive spirit by Chord, I have spent quite a bit of money with Chord (Mojo, Hugo and Dave), so it's just sincere customer feedback.
  
 regardless of the Mscaler (whether I will buy/afford or not), I am very happy with what I have purchased from Chord.


----------



## jelt2359

The ironic thing is that it was the Chord Dave purchase that first got me down the road fully exploring computer audio since its USB was its best input. Now I am fully hooked on the experience of Roon, have different upstream gear (Rednet3, Sms200), and even if I wanted to play the occasional CD now and then, I can't imagine stopping my Roon queue, playing CD, then getting back to my Roon queue. That's just not how I function any more. Another guy brought up the fact that not all music is online, which is true, and is why previously I asked if the Blu2 would be a better CD Ripper. Sadly no. So I can't think of a suitable way to integrate this into my workflow. 

Pre-Dave, that wouldn't have been the case. Now, I'm 100% down this road. 

Which is to say... I'll be patiently waiting for the standalone M scaler, like many others in this thread!  fingers crossed that when Rob says he'll do everything he can to get this into people's hands, that this would be on the cards!

PS. I like that most people giving feedback on this thread are actual Chord Dave owners, most of whom are giving feedback because they *want* to give Chord more money. Now that's a good problem to have, and is frequently not the case in other threads when new, expensive products are released.


----------



## AndrewOld

sonic77 said:


> You know what i want? I want a Ferrari, that i can afford, but dang them they keep making those expensive cars aaahhhh!


 

 Happy to buy a Ferrari. Just not buying one with a steam engine in the trunk!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

christer said:


> Hmm, I think you are probably jumping  to some  not quite correct  conclusions?
> For those things to be heard they must  be on the mastertape in the first place! How else could they have been copied digtally?And I also suspect that if one would have played say a  NOT bandwidth limited 24/96 direct digital transfer/copy of that mastertape some of those things could  have been even more evident than from playing a 16/44.1 digital decimated bandwidth limited copy of the analogue master tape.
> The things mentioned here are also often evident on LPs  played via a good system,although in many cases underground rumble and such   was filtered away  for release on LP.
> But now when  digital transfers /copies are made  directly from analogue mastertapes consumers get to hear things before only heard by mastering engineers before "setting the record straight" to quote just  one legendary engineer from Decca.
> ...




Many things have been missed by producers and engineers on very many recordings over the years regardless of the fact they were originally recorded to tape. Most of them in my opinion were probably obscured by a combination of noisy and slow amplifiers, noisy mixing desks and bad electrics. Plosives and distortion are the most common I have come across and they can be heard via an average CD setup. Will Blu2 uncover more such errors, I think it more likely that Blu2 will 'clarify' them more than uncover them. I suspect we will notice them more and if we went back to Dave we will realise they were present all along. Fwiw I have never had a problem with it. I quite like hearing the telephone ringing on the outro of Life on Mars, though less so the distortion on some vocals.


----------



## analogmusic

daveredref-iii said:


> Many things have been missed by producers and engineers on very many recordings over the years regardless of the fact they were originally recorded to tape. Most of them in my opinion were probably obscured by a combination of noisy and slow amplifiers, noisy mixing desks and bad electrics. Plosives and distortion are the most common I have come across and they can be heard via an average CD setup. Will Blu2 uncover more such errors, I think it more likely that Blu2 will 'clarify' them more than uncover them. I suspect we will notice them more and if we went back to Dave we will realise they were present all along. Fwiw I have never had a problem with it. I quite like hearing the telephone ringing on the outro of Life on Mars, though less so the distortion on some vocals.


 
  
 For me, as Rob Watts said himself, it is all about the musicality.
  
 Will Blu 2 make Dave more musical? I am quite sure, yes.....
  
 My only reservation is a request to Chord to making blu 2 as affordable as possible for Dave owners.


----------



## lovethatsound

analogmusic said:


> For me, as Rob Watts said himself, it is all about the musicality.
> 
> Will Blu 2 make Dave more musical? I am quite sure, yes.....
> 
> My only reservation is a request to Chord to making blu 2 as affordable as possible for Dave owners.


And to keep their word,and make it possible for the original blu to be upgraded to the new spec.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Of course, it's quite possible many of the things we notice as undesirable in a recording may not even be errors of the sort that were missed. It may be that that was the best take and recording time was very expensive in that era. They simply had to let it go.


----------



## Crgreen

The Wigmore Hall is used for chamber music and I've never been aware of any underground noise. The stage isn't large enough for an orchestra. It's a wonderful acoustic, and many fine recordings have been made there, including the hall's own label. BBC Radio 3 broadcasts lunchtime concerts on a regular basis.


----------



## analogmusic

Exactly so what I would be listening for during an audition of Blu2, does it give me more musical goosebumps than Dave does?


----------



## bmichels

analogmusic said:


> Exactly so what I would be listening for during an audition of Blu2, does it give me more musical c than Dave does?


 
  
 this is also exactly what I hope the Blu2 bring to the DAVE:  more musicality goosebumps, not more precision & details. The DAVE is already uber precise


----------



## Crgreen

analogmusic said:


> Exactly so what I would be listening for during an audition of Blu2, does it give me more musical goosebumps than Dave does?





Close to £8,000.00 worth of differences.


----------



## adyc

I say it again. Chord, please produce a Mscalar upsampler with USB input and network input. It should be quite easy to do it as Chord can reuse the USB input code from DAVE. 


I refuse to buy Blu2. It is not about price. I really do not want extra USB-SPDIF box and BNC cable.

Please please get the dedicated upsampler out as soon as possible.


----------



## analogmusic

crgreen said:


> Close to £8,000.00 worth of differences.


 
  
 Ok, did you hear it at CES 2017? More details please....


----------



## Christer

adyc said:


> I say it again. Chord, please produce a Mscalar upsampler with USB input and network input. It should be quite easy to do it as Chord can reuse the USB input code from DAVE.
> 
> 
> I refuse to buy Blu2. It is not about price. I really do not want extra USB-SPDIF box and BNC cable.
> ...


 

 It seems the discussion of BLU 2 is veering more and more into a question I asked about similar approaches done by for example Miska over at Computer Audiophile whose program also upsamples into mhz territory. But it upsamples  both pcm and native DSD 256 to  DSD 512 if I understand things correctly.
 And it seems one of the pioneers in DSD is launching a DAC that can play not only DSD 512 but also DSD 1024.
 I have  heard neither Miska's upsamling software nor the DSD 1024 DAC.   But I know Ted there who  like me personallly initially was quite enthusiastic about HUGO ,now claims that upsampling is both cheaper and better done in software than with non upgradeable expensive hardware.
 Chord seem to  be doing exactly the opposite by  launching the best they can do, locked up in a for many obsolete rbcd disc player.
  
 But obviously not for Chord with an eye on the the giant Chinese rbcd market.
  
 Everytime I am in Singapore I am surprised at the number of  superexpensive rbcd players  still on sale there.
 Not to mention  all the  badly recorded low res, POP/ ROCK rbcds demoed in the shops at the Adelphi.


----------



## tunes

Perhaps a bit off topic in a head phone site but have had my eyes on a Chord Dave for a while and was wondering since it can drive some very efficient speakers directly without an amp what have been the best sounding speakers anyone has heard to date direct RCA out from the Dave and can the sound fill a modest size room with enough dynamics and head room volume ~ 20 x 15 feet and 7 foot ceilings?


----------



## rkt31

christer said:


> It seems the discussion of BLU 2 is veering more and more into a question I asked about similar approaches done by for example Miska over at Computer Audiophile whose program also upsamples into mhz territory. But it upsamples  both pcm and native DSD 256 to  DSD 512 if I understand things correctly.
> And it seems one of the pioneers in DSD is launching a DAC that can play not only DSD 512 but also DSD 1024.
> I have  heard neither Miska's upsamling software nor the DSD 1024 DAC.   But I know Ted there who  like me personallly initially was quite enthusiastic about HUGO ,now claims that upsampling is both cheaper and better done in software than with non upgradeable expensive hardware.
> Chord seem to  be doing exactly the opposite by  launching the best they can do, locked up in a for many obsolete rbcd disc player.
> ...


 
 i have upsampled 48khz to maximum supported by mojo that is 768khz using hqplayer and sinc filter . sinc filter is the most data intensive in hq player and to my ears it sounds the best of all the options in hqplayer. i can confirm that upsampling to 768khz using hqplayer was no way better than bit perfect 48khz to mojo. now this blu mk2 upscaler uses much more processing power than mojo , so i think there is no way hq player or any other software solution can compete with the implementation of blu mk2. actually hq player is not used to pcm to pcm upsampling, it is mainly being used to pcm to dsd256 or above upsampling by those who use so called native dsd dacs. best way to try yourself between mojo and hq player.


----------



## Sonic77

andrewold said:


> Happy to buy a Ferrari. Just not buying one with a steam engine in the trunk!


 

 ​Don't buy it then, no one is forcing you, you sound like your throwing a fit when the Blu mkII is what it is.


----------



## Crgreen

analogmusic said:


> Ok, did you hear it at CES 2017? More details please....




It was a humerous remark, but to appreciate that you do actually need a sense of humour.


----------



## analogmusic

crgreen said:


> It was a humerous remark, but to appreciate that you do actually need a sense of humour.


 

 Oh I got the joke, but unfortunately you didn't get mine.
  
 Whatever. 8000 GBP worth of improvement, eh? and the 20 % UK VAT in that price....?


----------



## romaz

tunes said:


> Perhaps a bit off topic in a head phone site but have had my eyes on a Chord Dave for a while and was wondering since it can drive some very efficient speakers directly without an amp what have been the best sounding speakers anyone has heard to date direct RCA out from the Dave and can the sound fill a modest size room with enough dynamics and head room volume ~ 20 x 15 feet and 7 foot ceilings?


 
 My Omega Alnicos have a sensitivity of 95dB at 8 ohms and my DAVE's 2 watts can drive these speakers to satisfactorily moderate listening levels (peaks of 90dB).  The key to making this type of arrangement successful, however, is a good fast subwoofer to fill in the lower registers.
  
 Any speakers with greater sensitivity than this should work.  According to Rob, don't try this direct connection with 4-ohm speakers.  My dream setup would be the Voxativ 9.87 Alnicos paired with the Voxativ dipole subs that extend down to 20Hz.  The 9.87s have a sensitivity between 99 -105dB depending on which driver you go with and could easily be driven by DAVE directly, however, to reproduce an orchestral performance to full scale, I suspect you would want to drive them with Rob's upcoming 20-watt digital amp for your room size unless you will be listening near field (my room is actually a little bigger than yours).  Once you experience this setup with speakers, I believe you will find it will literally blow everything else out of the water with respect to transparency but of course, you will want the best interconnects/speaker cables you can afford.  As much as I was in awe of what I heard with M-scaler + DAVE during my brief experience with it, in some ways, I am in more awe with having my DAVE directly drive my speakers.  I am very much looking forward to what the combination of M-scaler and going "amp-less" will bring.


----------



## Jawed

romaz said:


> I am very much looking forward to what the combination of M-scaler and going "amp-less" will bring.



Eventually M-Scaler (Blu Mk 2) + Chord's 20W digital amplifier is all that you will need. DAVE is redundant in this setup...

Now playing: Bodies of Water - Doves Circled the Sky


----------



## romaz

christer said:


> It seems the discussion of BLU 2 is veering more and more into a question I asked about similar approaches done by for example Miska over at Computer Audiophile whose program also upsamples into mhz territory. But it upsamples  both pcm and native DSD 256 to  DSD 512 if I understand things correctly.
> And it seems one of the pioneers in DSD is launching a DAC that can play not only DSD 512 but also DSD 1024.
> I have  heard neither Miska's upsamling software nor the DSD 1024 DAC.   But I know Ted there who  like me personallly initially was quite enthusiastic about HUGO ,now claims that upsampling is both cheaper and better done in software than with non upgradeable expensive hardware.
> Chord seem to  be doing exactly the opposite by  launching the best they can do, locked up in a for many obsolete rbcd disc player.
> ...


 
  
 You seem to misunderstand much about what is happening here.  HQPlayer and Rob's DACs both seek to accomplish the same thing, to bring you closer to the music by lifting veils resulting in greater depth and providing greater clarity of detail through_ upsampling_.  HQPlayer's ambitions, however, are more modest and limited by the hardware platform they choose to use, meaning a PC or Mac.  To upsample to DSD512 (or DSD1024), you need an incredibly powerful and noisy machine and yet with the FPGA in DAVE, Rob can upsample much higher and with the M-scaler in Blu Mk2, even higher still.
  
 According to Miska, upsampling with HQP from 16/44 to 11.4MHz yields something like 4M taps but according to Rob, his method of calculating taps is incorrect and if he were to use this same formula, DAVE would have tens of millions of taps.
  
 Regardless, as I own 2 copies of HQPlayer (for Mac and Windows), a while back, I used my video editing PC which is an HP Z820 workstation with dual 8-core Xeons, 64GB of RAM and nVidia Quadro K5000 GPU with 1536 CUDA cores.  This machine was very capable of allowing me to smoothly upsample to DSD512 with HQP direct to DAVE but also using my microRendu as an HQPlayer NAA and yet DAVE sounded better without upsampling in _every_ instance.
  
 Here's another perspective for you to consider.  As someone who seems to really love HQPlayer and DSD, I'm assuming you've seen Michael Lavorgna's recent review of the T+A DAC 8 DSD:
  
 http://www.audiostream.com/content/ta-dac-8#bvfTd64tcbAuVrwb.97
  
  
 This DAC has obviously been very popular for many because of its more modest price and its ability to play DSD512.  In the review, he used a $16k SGM 2015 server to feed the T+A DAC 8 an upsampled DSD512 signal and claimed it was superior to most everything he had previously heard except his own TotalDac d1-Six and the dCS Rossini, which he felt were still better.  Well, if you recall, I used to own an even better TotalDac d1-monobloc and also directly compared DAVE to dCS' best Vivaldi DAC combined with dCS' Vivaldi Upsampler and very expensive dCS Master Clock and DAVE was better than both of these setups.  With the M-scaler, that gap grows even more.
  
 The point is that much of what is happening with HQPlayer doesn't apply to the DAVE.  The rest of the world is trying to play catch up.
  
 As to Ted, if you are referring to Ted Brady, yes, he's a good guy and a fan of Chord but to my knowledge, he has not heard/compared DAVE against what he has now.  As to his claim that upsampling through software is better?   Maybe better than their non-Chord DACs in stock form but as far as I have heard, it isn't better with the DAVE.  Is it cheaper?  Maybe if you have modest upsampling ambitions but if you have to buy a $16K SGR 2015 music server, then it's not.  In fact, once you hear Hugo 2 for yourself, you'll see because when I heard it for myself at CES, my first thoughts were "OMG, I'm listening to DAVE!" and it was only after a direct A/B at the Chord booth was I able to convince myself that DAVE was still noticeably better but this gap has definitely narrowed.  I would be willing to bet Hugo 2 by itself can outperform the combination of SGM 2015 and T+A 8.  At this point, I would consider Hugo 2 as the 2nd best DAC I've ever heard.
  
 With Blu Mk 2, you seem to be blinded by the "obsolete rbcd player" that it contains as you completely ignore the M-scaler that can be used with other sources including a cheap Mac Mini. Despite its high cost, it is still considerably less expensive than an SGM 2015 music server and even when combined with the Hugo you already own will likely blow away even the best system that Miska can put together.


----------



## kennyb123

crgreen said:


> The Wigmore Hall is used for chamber music and I've never been aware of any underground noise.


 

 It's the Kingsway Hall that had the problem with rumble from the London Underground.


----------



## bmichels

romaz said:


> With Blu Mk 2..... even when combined with the Hugo you already own will likely blow away even the best system ...


 
  
 Can Blu2 really be connected to HUGO ?
  
 Doesn't Blu2 needs a DAC with a Dual BNC S/PDIF input (that HUGO don't have) to get maximum advantage of the M-scaller  ?


----------



## romaz

bmichels said:


> Can Blu2 really be connected to HUGO ?
> 
> Doesn't Blu2 needs a DAC with a Dual BNC S/PDIF input (that HUGO don't have) to get maximum advantage of the M-scaller  ?


 
 To get 1 million TAPS, you need DAVE and its dual BNC DX inputs.  It will combine with other DACs and you get 500k TAPS.


----------



## lovethatsound

bmichels said:


> Can Blu2 really be connected to HUGO ?
> 
> Doesn't Blu2 needs a DAC with a Dual BNC S/PDIF input (that HUGO don't have) to get maximum advantage of the M-scaller  ?


yes the blu 2 needs a Dac with daul inputs to get the most out of it.


----------



## lovethatsound

jawed said:


> Eventually M-Scaler (Blu Mk 2) + Chord's 20W digital amplifier is all that you will need. DAVE is redundant in this setup...
> 
> Now playing: Bodies of Water - Doves Circled the Sky


Are you saying chords digital amp will have a dac in it as good as Dave?


----------



## adyc

rkt31 said:


> i have upsampled 48khz to maximum supported by mojo that is 768khz using hqplayer and sinc filter . sinc filter is the most data intensive in hq player and to my ears it sounds the best of all the options in hqplayer. i can confirm that upsampling to 768khz using hqplayer was no way better than bit perfect 48khz to mojo. now this blu mk2 upscaler uses much more processing power than mojo , so i think there is no way hq player or any other software solution can compete with the implementation of blu mk2. actually hq player is not used to pcm to pcm upsampling, it is mainly being used to pcm to dsd256 or above upsampling by those who use so called native dsd dacs. best way to try yourself between mojo and hq player.




I agree. I have tried HQPlayer for a long time. It is overrated. I found the sound is no better. Sometimes it is worse.


----------



## romaz

lovethatsound said:


> Are you saying chords digital amp will have a dac in it as good as Dave?


 
 It won't have a DAC.  It's an amp that will only have digital inputs (no analog inputs) and so it can only be used with the DAVE and will require connection to one of DAVE's DX/BNC connectors.  There is the option of connecting one amp per DX connector for monoblock operation.
  
 I have been told by Rob it will half the size of TT and will be class AH in topology.  It will have equivalent transparency as DAVE's headphone output.


----------



## SunWarrior

romaz said:


> To get 1 million TAPS, you need DAVE and its dual BNC DX inputs.  It will combine with other DACs and you get 500k TAPS.


 
  
 I'm wondering about something here. Just looked at the DAVE manual.
  
 And it calls those four, currently unused, BNC DX connectors "outputs" not inputs.
  
 Is that just a typo in the manual?
  
 I mean, since the signal is traveling from the M-Scaler to the DAVE, it would need to be some kind of inputs on the DAC.


----------



## romaz

sunwarrior said:


> I'm wondering about something here. Just looked at the DAVE manual.
> 
> And it calls those four, currently unused, BNC DX connectors "outputs" not inputs.
> 
> ...


 
 This is my understanding as well, that the DX connectors are potentially both inputs and outputs.  Two will be used by Blu 2 or Davina and there are two left over for the digital amps although if you won't be using the digital amps, I suppose you could use both Blu 2 and Davina together.


----------



## drbobbybones

romaz said:


> My Omega Alnicos have a sensitivity of 95dB at 8 ohms and my DAVE's 2 watts can drive these speakers to satisfactorily moderate listening levels (peaks of 90dB).  The key to making this type of arrangement successful, however, is a good fast subwoofer to fill in the lower registers.
> 
> Any speakers with greater sensitivity than this should work.  According to Rob, don't try this direct connection with 4-ohm speakers.  My dream setup would be the Voxativ 9.87 Alnicos paired with the Voxativ dipole subs that extend down to 20Hz.  The 9.87s have a sensitivity between 99 -105dB depending on which driver you go with and could easily be driven by DAVE directly, however, to reproduce an orchestral performance to full scale, I suspect you would want to drive them with Rob's upcoming 20-watt digital amp for your room size unless you will be listening near field (my room is actually a little bigger than yours).  Once you experience this setup with speakers, I believe you will find it will literally blow everything else out of the water with respect to transparency but of course, you will want the best interconnects/speaker cables you can afford.  As much as I was in awe of what I heard with M-scaler + DAVE during my brief experience with it, in some ways, I am in more awe with having my DAVE directly drive my speakers.  I am very much looking forward to what the combination of M-scaler and going "amp-less" will bring.


 
  
 So how are you connecting the DAVE to the speakers?  Currently, I have my DAVE feeding a Woo WA22 through the 2 3-pin XLR outputs on the back and the gain at 0 dB.  Am I doing something wrong here?  Am I sending too much current to my Woo?  Because 2 watts sounds like a whole lot going to an amplifier input.


----------



## Jawed

DAVE has 4 BNC inputs and 4 BNC outputs each of which is capable of 24-bit 384KHz stereo. Or two working together is 24-bit 768kHz stereo. DAVE has to be configured to join 2 inputs together to make this work.

So Blu Mk 2 connected to DAVE uses 2 BNC inputs.

Similarly, a single stereo Chord digital power amplifier connected to DAVE would require 2 BNC outputs to get 24-bit 768kHz stereo.

Now playing: BIMP Quartet - Beam Line


----------



## romaz

drbobbybones said:


> So how are you connecting the DAVE to the speakers?  Currently, I have my DAVE feeding a Woo WA22 through the 2 3-pin XLR outputs on the back and the gain at 0 dB.  Am I doing something wrong here?  Am I sending too much current to my Woo?  Because 2 watts sounds like a whole lot going to an amplifier input.


 
 No, you're fine.  Output is 2 watts at 8 ohms.  The input impedance of your Woo amps is likely in the thousands and so your amps are only receiving a small fraction of what my speakers are seeing.


----------



## JaZZ

> Originally Posted by *romaz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ...once you hear Hugo 2 for yourself, you'll see because when I heard it for myself at CES, my first thoughts were "OMG, I'm listening to DAVE!" and it was only after a direct A/B at the Chord booth was I able to convince myself that DAVE was still noticeably better but this gap has definitely narrowed.  I would be willing to bet Hugo 2 by itself can outperform the combination of SGM 2015 and T+A 8.  At this point, I would consider Hugo 2 as the 2nd best DAC I've ever heard.


 
  
 Wow, Roy, that's quite a statement! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 And one that makes me all the more look forward to the Hugo 2 – which I probably won't be able to omit, also because I like the look. Thus a portable version of the DAVE...


----------



## maxh22

jazz said:


> Wow, Roy, that's quite a statement! :tongue_smile: And one that makes me all the more look forward to the Hugo 2 – which I probably won't be able to omit, also because I like the look. Thus a portable version of the DAVE...




Dave JR aka Dogo


----------



## romaz

jazz said:


> Wow, Roy, that's quite a statement!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, it is a portable DAVE and one I could happily live with if something happened to my DAVE.  If the Mojo/Poly combo wasn't so darn convenient, I would feel compelled to sell my Mojo and get the Hugo 2.  DAVE is clearly better with not just more TAPS but also a better output stage and power supply but unless you compared the two directly, you wouldn't think you were missing out on anything.  It has 4 filter options (DAVE with HF filter, DAVE without HF filter, Mojo with HF filter and Mojo without HF filter) to give you different flavors.  I think DAVE will now be for those who want the best of the best and are looking to take full advantage of the M-scaler and possibly the digital amps.


----------



## Christer

romaz said:


> You seem to misunderstand much about what is happening here.  HQPlayer and Rob's DACs both seek to accomplish the same thing, to bring you closer to the music by lifting veils resulting in greater depth and providing greater clarity of detail through_ upsampling_.  HQPlayer's ambitions, however, are more modest and limited by the hardware platform they choose to use, meaning a PC or Mac.  To upsample to DSD512 (or DSD1024), you need an incredibly powerful and noisy machine and yet with the FPGA in DAVE, Rob can upsample much higher and with the M-scaler in Blu Mk2, even higher still.
> 
> According to Miska, upsampling with HQP from 16/44 to 11.4MHz yields something like 4M taps but according to Rob, his method of calculating taps is incorrect and if he were to use this same formula, DAVE would have tens of millions of taps.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks a lot for your initiated response to my questions romaz.
 I was merely wondering and asking some hopefully in this context, legitimate  questions .Not stating any facts at all. And your insightful response puts things in a  clearer perspective!
 Regarding HUGO 2 what kind of music and recordings/resolutions, where you listening to during that comparison with DAVE?
 The typical audio showroom stuff Nora Jones/ Diana Krall and such is imho simply NOT good enough material to really  sort "the wheat from the chaff".
 To come to any meaningful conclusions about actual SQ I absolutely need to hear some of my own  large scale symphonic reference material. The standard showfare  sounds similar enough on any decent DAC to me.
 I hope both your "bold statement" on HUGO 2  will be as accurate as your views on DAVE even for me and my needs and listening habits in the long run.
 But there seem to be some posts on the actual HUGO 2 thread that suggest that HUGO 2 might be just as sensitive to jitter /RF and such as HUGO without adding an external galvanic isolator to the equation. And considering all the problems I have had with HUGO in my home system particularly, that has  made me more than a bit worried that it won't do the job without some  imho unneccessary drawbacks.
 For me it needs to perform close to SOTA, BOTH as a portable DAC via highend headphones directly and equally importantly back home via my  very power-hungry large  electrostatic speakers.
 Priced around 2200 dollars, I actually very much expected HUGO 2 to include galvanic isolation which makes a huge difference in consistency between for example my admittedly  less resolving  Benchmark DAC 2 and  my very erratic/moody and unreliable HUGO in my home system.
 I even discussed the obvious shortcomings of HUGO with Rob in Singapore when I had become more  aware of HUGO's not quite" perfect sound forever" both regarding  it being too low-powered and very sensitive to jitter/RF groundloops  and such problems. I got the impression he was well aware of those problems and  very kindly explained the reasons behind what I was experiencing. I actually asumed that Mark 2 would solve them without one having to buy external "problem solvers" from Audioquest/ Intona or any other company that specializes in sorting out such  problems when the manufacturer has not done so.
 One of the most surprising posts I read here was when Rob recommended Jitterbug  even with DAVE under certain conditions.
 And I am not ignoring M-scaler , far from it. What bothers me is why they chose to hide it in a largely obsolete product like a rbcd player.
 As someone here said along the lines of:" I don´t mind buying an Ferrari, but I don´t want it with a steam engine."
 Anyway cheers and thanks again Chris


----------



## analogmusic

for upscaling there is the WTA filter that Rob Invented and then every other method out there....?  Otherwise anyone with programming & Maths skills would be able to build such an upscaler in a short while, but it took Rob Watts 20 years to refine his WTA filter.


----------



## romaz

christer said:


> Thanks a lot for your initiated response to my questions romaz.
> I was merely wondering and asking some hopefully in this context, legitimate  questions .Not stating any facts at all. And your insightful response puts things in a  clearer perspective!
> Regarding HUGO 2 what kind of music and recordings/resolutions, where you listening to during that comparison with DAVE?
> The typical audio showroom stuff Nora Jones/ Diana Krall and such is imho simply NOT good enough material to really  sort "the wheat from the chaff".
> ...


 
  
 The questions you ask are fair.  I believe we are all looking for value in our purchases and so it would seem foolish to have to buy the M-scaler bundled with another component we may never use but none of us have control over these marketing decisions.  I suppose if enough noise is made here on Head-Fi and other forums, John Franks could be persuaded to change his mind but as far as I recall being told, there are no plans to release a stand-alone M-scaler in the foreseeable future.  
  
 I will say, however, that once you hear how good a Redbook CD sounds on Blu 2, you may continue to question the inconvenience of spinning CDs but I assure you that you won't question how good it sounds.  It will probably sound better than your high-res version of the same tracks played without the M-scaler.
  
 As to the high price of the Blu 2, my gut tells me that even if Chord came out with a standalone M-scaler that it wouldn't be much cheaper and this may be for political reasons rather than because of high component costs.  Imagine what a cheap M-scaler would mean to the rest of the DAC world.  Remember, Chord DACs are unique and I believe this isn't because people don't believe the path Rob is on isn't the right path, it's because no one else knows how to do what Rob is doing.  Even Miska admitted he didn't know what a pulse array DAC is.  It seems everyone else's answer is to upsample to DSD, add more resistors, overbuild their PSUs or put tubes in the output stage to cover up for how compromised their digital conversion is and while there are other really good sounding DACs because of well-implemented analog stages, as far as fidelity to the recording, I have yet to hear anything as truthful to the recording as Rob's DACs.  I believe your ears told you the same thing when you heard the DAVE and so the broad availability of the M-scaler all of a sudden allows all DAC owners to benefit from Rob's decades of knowledge and experience.  But to give these folks access to 500k taps when a $13k Chord DAVE only has 164,000 taps, surely this cannot come cheaply without upsetting the many who own a DAVE.  
  
 As for my reference music when evaluating a DAC, if you have read my recent comparison posts, then you would know how critical I am of the types of music that most rooms play at audio shows.  Studio recordings of Nora Jones, Diana Krall, Rebecca Pidgeon, Steely Dan, Daft Punk, etc.  Great music which I enjoy but child's play for most DACs and so it's hard if not impossible to draw any conclusions about DAC performance in these rooms.  Not to say it's not playing at other times when I'm not in those rooms but it amazes me how rarely I hear it and so I will let people draw their own conclusions about this.
  
 As for Hugo 2, Rob has learned much since the original Hugo and I believe you will easily hear its merits once you get a chance to experience it for yourself regardless of what genre of music you throw at it.  I suspect it will hurt sales of the DAVE and if people can get over its small size and intended portable application, I am willing to bet it will cause people to question whether there's any reason at all to spend more for any DAC, even in a million dollar system.  I believe it is that good.


----------



## analogmusic

Hi Roy
  
 Very nice post. Thank you for your clarifications.


----------



## TokenGesture

romaz said:


> As for Hugo 2, Rob has learned much since the original Hugo and I believe you will easily hear its merits once you get a chance to experience it for yourself regardless of what genre of music you throw at it.  I suspect it will hurt sales of the DAVE and if people can get over its small size and intended portable application, I am willing to bet it will cause people to question whether there's any reason at all to spend more for any DAC, even in a million dollar system.  I believe it is that good.


 
  
 Wow!


----------



## analogmusic

Hi Roy
  
 About Mscaler with other non-chord Dac, I am not convinced they will benefit much, as 50 % of the magic of a Chord DAC is the Pulse Array which gives the resolution of the small signals.
  
 I think the only way to enjoy the benefits of the Mscaler million taps and what they can do for music is to first own DAVE and then use Mscaler. Why settle for 500,000 taps, when 1,000,000 was always the magic number mentioned by Rob to perfectly recreate the analog signal before the ADC.
  
 Even Hugo 2 won't be able to use million taps, and can only use 500,000 maximum


----------



## romaz

analogmusic said:


> Hi Roy
> 
> About Mscaler with other non-chord Dac, I am not convinced they will benefit much, as 50 % of the magic of a Chord DAC is the Pulse Array which gives the resolution of the small signals.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I am inclined to agree.  I don't think 500k taps absolves all sins but I believe it could have the potential to transform any DAC.  Imagine the $10k Blu Mk 2 with M-scaler that consumes no more than 30 watts and can upscale almost any DAC to 500k taps vs the $16k SGM 2015 that consumes hundreds of watts that upscales to DSD512 via HQPlayer.  I think the comparison is hilarious.
  
 I also agree that the difference from 500k to 1M taps was no trivial matter to my ears and this remains a very strong argument for the DAVE.  Don't get me wrong, the difference from Hugo 2 to DAVE (without M-scaler) was still significant and instantly apparent but I do believe that Hugo 2 has now crossed that threshold where it is now much closer to DAVE than to Mojo.


----------



## dmance

romaz said:


> ... Remember, Chord DACs are unique and I believe this isn't because people don't believe the path Rob is on isn't the right path, it's because no one else knows how to do what Rob is doing.


 
  
 Roy,
 I think you may have nailed it here...
  
 I can recite all RW's posts from memory and discuss his DAC technology at dinner parties.  But I don't have a clue as to what is really going on.  I  'know' how a top-tier dac is supposed to look like with the lid off the box.  But I am aghast when topless DAVE photos reveals only a simple switching PSU, no toroid coil, no rows of fat capacitors; just mostly a single elegant FPGA under a heatsink.  And I am used to complex gadget filled playback chains that make demands on my money and patience to achieve top sound.  Wait, what?  I just plug my playback device into a DAVE to beat the competition? And now the Hugo2 - world class sound that you say is the 2nd best DAC you've heard (after DAVE).
  
 These are devastating observations for Chord's competitors.  Regardless of price or market segment, it now seems to me that not choosing a RW dac is backing the wrong horse.  I've sold my other DACs and have a Hugo2 on order (for speaker playback in my main listening room).  If Chord's product onslaught continues to incorporate RW's designs then I can see more reasons to fully adopt a Chord stack - as expensive as that may be.
  
 Thanks for your continued access to Rob Watts and insight into Chord's products. 
  
 Dan


----------



## bmichels

romaz said:


> ... If the Mojo/Poly combo wasn't so darn convenient, I would feel compelled to sell my Mojo and get the Hugo 2....


 
  
 So let's hope a "Super Poly" designed for HUGO 2 will come around.


----------



## Mojo ideas

romaz said:


> The questions you ask are fair.  I believe we are all looking for value in our purchases and so it would seem foolish to have to buy the M-scaler bundled with another component we may never use but none of us have control over these marketing decisions.  I suppose if enough noise is made here on Head-Fi and other forums, John Franks could be persuaded to change his mind but as far as I recall being told, there are no plans to release a stand-alone M-scaler in the foreseeable future.
> 
> I will say, however, that once you hear how good a Redbook CD sounds on Blu 2, you may continue to question the inconvenience of spinning CDs but I assure you that you won't question how good it sounds.  It will probably sound better than your high-res version of the same tracks played without the M-scaler.
> 
> ...


 I must pick you up on one point sorry but Robs Dac design are not sensitive to jitter in fact they are intrinsically all highly insensitive to jittery signals by virtue of their design and all are far less sensitive than virtually all other Dacs


----------



## romaz

mojo ideas said:


> I must pick you up on one point sorry but Robs Dac design are not sensitive to jitter in fact they are intrinsically all highly insensitive to jittery signals by virtue of their design and all are far less sensitive than virtually all other Dacs


 
 I agree with you, John.  That comment came from somone else.


----------



## Mojo ideas

romaz said:


> I agree with you, John.  That comment came from somone else.


 I thought it must have


----------



## AndrewOld

romaz said:


> As to the high price of the Blu 2, my gut tells me that even if Chord came out with a standalone M-scaler that it wouldn't be much cheaper and this may be for political reasons rather than because of high component costs.


 

  
 Obviously you want to protect the investment you are making in your Blu2, so a significantly cheaper stand-alone M Scaler would not suit you, but very few DAVE owners will find it credible  that leaving the CD mechanism, associated electronics and casework out of the Blu2 would have no significant affect on the price. It would surely be regarded as cynical and exploitative to price such a product at the same price as the Blu 2 for "political" reasons, whatever they might be. Swapping a CD mechanism that most of us have no use for for an ADC that even more of us have no use for doesn't make sense either. So I certainly hope you aren't speaking for Chord, and I look forward to a stand-alone M Scaler at a fair price.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

andrewold said:


> I look forward to a stand-alone M Scaler at a fair price.


 
  
 Fair price?  We are on a Chord thread so let's be realistic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I kid of course.  
  
 EIther way, I appreciate exactly what Roy is saying regarding "other reasons".  After all, business is business and pricing is far more complex than Parts+Markup=MSRP.


----------



## miketlse

andrewold said:


> Obviously you want to protect the investment you are making in your Blu2, so a significantly cheaper stand-alone M Scaler would not suit you, but very few DAVE owners will find it credible  that leaving the CD mechanism, associated electronics and casework out of the Blu2 would have no significant affect on the price. It would surely be regarded as cynical and exploitative to price such a product at the same price as the Blu 2 for "political" reasons, whatever they might be. Swapping a CD mechanism that most of us have no use for for an ADC that even more of us have no use for doesn't make sense either. So I certainly hope you aren't speaking for Chord, and I look forward to a stand-alone M Scaler at a fair price.


 
 Enlighten us all - if the disc transport was removed from the Blu 2, to leave just the M Scalar functionality, how much would you expect the price to decrease?


----------



## pompom

Rather than removing the CD player, I will much prefer CHORD to add USB input to the BLU2....  
  
 My Music server has only USB output.


----------



## Sonic77

They could make it proprietary and that would make us all happy
!


----------



## adyc

dmance said:


> These are devastating observations for Chord's competitors.  Regardless of price or market segment, it now seems to me that not choosing a RW dac is backing the wrong horse.  I've sold my other DACs and have a Hugo2 on order (for speaker playback in my main listening room).  If Chord's product onslaught continues to incorporate RW's designs then I can see more reasons to fully adopt a Chord stack - as expensive as that may be.




No worries about the rest of competitors. There are enough snobbish audiophiles who are put off by the low price of Chord products will continue to buy much more expensive but inferior DACs.


----------



## pompom

bmichels said:


> So let's hope a "Super Poly" designed for HUGO 2 will come around.


 
  
 + 10000


----------



## adyc

pompom said:


> Rather than removing the CD player, I will much prefer CHORD to add USB input to the BLU2....
> 
> My Music server has only USB output.




++++1000000

I don't mind having a CD transport and the price of Blu2 but I'm pxxsed that they do not have USB input. Please consider replacing BNC by USB by having Blu2 USB edition.


----------



## miko64

Gents - if Blu 2 is the holy grail, aren't there reasonably priced usb --> bnc converters?


----------



## adyc

miko64 said:


> Gents - if Blu 2 is the holy grail, aren't there reasonably priced usb --> bnc converters?




Why add another box, power cable and BNC cable?


----------



## miko64

because desperate to use it.. I use meridian explorer as usb --> optical converter for my b&o beolab 20, power comes from NUC box via usb.
  
 just a thought


----------



## romaz

andrewold said:


> Obviously you want to protect the investment you are making in your Blu2, so a significantly cheaper stand-alone M Scaler would not suit you, but very few DAVE owners will find it credible  that leaving the CD mechanism, associated electronics and casework out of the Blu2 would have no significant affect on the price. It would surely be regarded as cynical and exploitative to price such a product at the same price as the Blu 2 for "political" reasons, whatever they might be. Swapping a CD mechanism that most of us have no use for for an ADC that even more of us have no use for doesn't make sense either. So I certainly hope you aren't speaking for Chord, and I look forward to a stand-alone M Scaler at a fair price.


 
  
 No, I speak for myself but I do try and look at things from the perspective of both the manufacturer and the consumer.  Production of the Blu 2 has not started and so I have no binding commitment to it at this stage.  If I had a choice, like most, I would opt for a standalone M-scaler for myself, especially one with multiple digital inputs and especially USB and who wouldn't want to pay less.  
  
 I am pragmatic enough, however, that if I have been told that a standalone M-scaler isn't in the works and that Davina is likely to cost the same, then I have to decide whether to move forward or to wait and I have chosen to move forward.  In my view, the price of the M-scaler by itself is worth the magnitude of the improvement that I have heard and so I consider the CD transport as a bonus.  While I could wait for Davina with its multiple inputs including USB, I have found an acceptable workaround (a very good USB to SPDIF converter)  that allows me to enjoy all that the M-scaler has to offer my DAVE without having to wait an uncertain period of time.
  
 With regards to saving a lot of money by leaving out the CD mechanism, this may be true and only Chord knows for sure but I'm sure there would be development costs that would not be insignificant for developing a completely new product from scratch that would require a different chassis, various inputs, etc.  I'm sure Chord was able to save money and bring the M-scaler to production much sooner by adding the M-scaler to a pre-existing product like the Blu and so hopefully, this is reflected in its price.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

andrewold said:


> Obviously you want to protect the investment you are making in your Blu2, so a significantly cheaper stand-alone M Scaler would not suit you, but very few DAVE owners will find it credible  that leaving the CD mechanism, associated electronics and casework out of the Blu2 would have no significant affect on the price. It would surely be regarded as cynical and exploitative to price such a product at the same price as the Blu 2 for "political" reasons, whatever they might be. Swapping a CD mechanism that most of us have no use for for an ADC that even more of us have no use for doesn't make sense either. So I certainly hope you aren't speaking for Chord, and I look forward to a stand-alone M Scaler at a fair price.




Andrew
Your seemingly continuous bleating about this product is becoming tedious and I believe plainly unwarranted.

In just 12 months Chord have delivered a new product with more than 700 processors compared to Dave's 166, 1,000,000 taps compared to Dave's 164,000, has superior code refinement and thrown in a CD player for good measure all at the same price as the Dave. You want them to take out the CD player and slash the price? I would suggest you avoid a career in manufacturing.


----------



## Kamil21

miko64 said:


> Gents - if Blu 2 is the holy grail, aren't there reasonably priced usb --> bnc converters?




I'm not making excuses for Chord here, but many manufacturers like DcS, Naim etc 'invent' multiple boxes and make us pay for it on sound quality upgrade terms. I too would love a £3000 one box all input scaler ( we are a demanding lot, aren't we ). But then again, I am thankful that Chord did not put out a 500k transport and expect us to wait yet another year for the 1M USB scaler.


----------



## jelt2359

bigfatpaulie said:


> Fair price?  We are on a Chord thread so let's be realistic
> 
> I kid of course.
> 
> EIther way, I appreciate exactly what Roy is saying regarding "other reasons".  After all, business is business and pricing is far more complex than Parts+Markup=MSRP.




I think the point of this thread is the right one. Owners like myself are giving feedback on what we'd like to see. With the release of the Mojo particularly I think Chord understands the market potential of going down, rather than upmarket in terms of price. This thread has also made me excited about what else could be in store. For example, why can't the "Mojo with and without HF on" also be updated to the Dave? I know plenty of people who attribute the Mojo's warmer tuning (vs the Hugo) to "lesser digital hash", and if that's their preference maybe this small tweak may end up helping Chord sell boatloads more Dave's. 

Another way forward- and sometimes it really is that simple- if the pricing of the Blu2 is not about cost and so has some wiggle room, then perhaps offer a loyalty discount for Dave owners only? This will allow us to experience what only we can exploit fully (million) while being a nod to the sentiment that most of us really do not want a CDP. This way, there's no political issue for DAVE owners; those who want a top notch CDP continue to buy that; and DAVE owners get their "standalone M scaler" that just happens to come with a CDP, but with the knowledge that the CDP has been "priced out of the cost" somewhat. 

Seems like a win, win, win. I'd even hazard to speculate that this may sell even more Dave's for Chord, as those who buy Blu2 may be upsold to the Dave to enjoy a discount on the bundle. Definitely it will sell more Blu2's, as the rest of us drop our objections (amazing how a lowered price can end arguments fairly quickly). 

Finally, it'd also be a nod to those of us who *need* a USB to AES or BNC converter now. This, after all, is a situation that exists partly because for a while now Rob and everyone else on this thread has told us that USB is the best input for our Dave so we've invested in USB sources. To use the Blu2 we now have to invest again, and we can use some of the money saved to get ourselves a new source- be it Rednet, Mutec, etc etc. 

Of course if it's the Blu2's price is primarily about its manufacturing cost then my argument goes out the window, in which case then us DAVE owners who don't want a CDP are probably going to be stuck waiting for the standalone M scaler for a while. (PS, I consider economies of scale a cost as well. It's cheaper to manufacturer 1,000 blu2's than 200 blu2's + 800 M-Dave's, so Chord should factor that in when thinking about whether this idea has legs. What if this approach helps them sell 1,000 blu2's? How much would their per unit cost drop?) 

Nonetheless that would be a shame as that means this tech will continue to sit on the proverbial shelves of Chord, rather than finding a much better use in our homes 

Just a thought!


----------



## Kamil21

As an aside, there is a comment from Martin Colloms of HiFi Critic in its forums where he says that Dave lacked image depth and liveliness in his system as compared to his reference., but then gave the excuse that it was fresh from the factory.

romaz, would you say that the 1m Blu Mk2 has made noticeable advancements in this characteristic?


----------



## Sonic77

romaz said:


> No, I speak for myself but I do try and look at things from the perspective of both the manufacturer and the consumer.  Production of the Blu 2 has not started and so I have no binding commitment to it at this stage.  If I had a choice, like most, I would opt for a standalone M-scaler for myself, especially one with multiple digital inputs and especially USB and who wouldn't want to pay less.
> 
> I am pragmatic enough, however, that if I have been told that a standalone M-scaler isn't in the works and that Davina is likely to cost the same, then I have to decide whether to move forward or to wait and I have chosen to move forward.  In my view, the price of the M-scaler by itself is worth the magnitude of the improvement that I have heard and so I consider the CD transport as a bonus.  While I could wait for Davina with its multiple inputs including USB, I have found an acceptable workaround (a very good USB to SPDIF converter)  that allows me to enjoy all that the M-scaler has to offer my DAVE without having to wait an uncertain period of time.
> 
> With regards to saving a lot of money by leaving out the CD mechanism, this may be true and only Chord knows for sure but I'm sure there would be development costs that would not be insignificant for developing a completely new product from scratch that would require a different chassis, various inputs, etc.  I'm sure Chord was able to save money and bring the M-scaler to production much sooner by adding the M-scaler to a pre-existing product like the Blu and so hopefully, this is reflected in its price.


 

 ​I feel the same as you, no commitment to the Blu mk II either and yes I would have preferred a stand alone M-scaler who wouldn't? On the other hand I could enjoy the cd player with 1 Million taps and use a usb-spdif converter for now. My dealer told me April is the shipping date although that may change he said, is that what you are hearing? I thought the Blu was shipping late Feb early March?


----------



## romaz

sonic77 said:


> I feel the same as you, no commitment to the Blu mk II either and yes I would have preferred a stand alone M-scaler who wouldn't? On the other hand I could enjoy the cd player with 1 Million taps and use a usb-spdif converter for now. My dealer told me April is the shipping date although that may change he said, is that what you are hearing? I thought the Blu was shipping late Feb early March?


 
 At CES, I was told production begins in February.  When the U.S. distributor actually gets stock on hand is not clear.


----------



## romaz

kamil21 said:


> As an aside, there is a comment from Martin Colloms of HiFi Critic in its forums where he says that Dave lacked image depth and liveliness in his system as compared to his reference., but then gave the excuse that it was fresh from the factory.
> 
> @romaz, would you say that the 1m Blu Mk2 has made noticeable advancements in this characteristic?


 
 I read that review.  I would love to hear the DAC that he believes has better depth than the DAVE, whether he used DAVE's SE outputs, had a preamp in the chain, etc.  For those who opt for Rob's upcoming digital amps for speakers, from my own experience, I believe it would be hard for anything else to touch DAVE if paired with this digital amp with regards to depth.  It is the holographic quality of both space and depth that stand out the most when I went from an amp to having DAVE driving my speakers directly.
  
 With my brief time with Blu Mk2 at 1M taps directly A/B'd against CD direct (no M-scaler), yes, absolutely, depth was improved in addition to tighter image focus and clarity.


----------



## adyc

sonic77 said:


> ​I feel the same as you, no commitment to the Blu mk II either and yes I would have preferred a stand alone M-scaler who wouldn't? On the other hand I could enjoy the cd player with 1 Million taps and use a usb-spdif converter for now. My dealer told me April is the shipping date although that may change he said, is that what you are hearing? I thought the Blu was shipping late Feb early March?




My dealer told me first shipment to China late February.


----------



## romaz

sonic77 said:


> They could make it proprietary and that would make us all happy
> !


 
 Selfishly speaking, I would much prefer that Chord did this and then cut the price in half.


----------



## ecwl

Quote:


romaz said:


> I read that review.  I would love to hear the DAC that he believes has better depth than the DAVE, whether he used DAVE's SE outputs, had a preamp in the chain, etc.  For those who opt for Rob's upcoming digital amps for speakers, from my own experience, I believe it would be hard for anything else to touch DAVE if paired with this digital amp with regards to depth.  It is the holographic quality of both space and depth that stand out the most when I went from an amp to having DAVE driving my speakers directly.


 
 I have the review in front of me. It was Rafael Todes who made the comment but I presume Martin Colloms would agree because Rafael Todes was comparing DAVE to Naim NDS with 555PS DR in Martin Colloms' system. The typical setup for Colloms is the Naim NDS with 555PS DR to Townshend Allegri passive preamplifier to Naim NAP500DR or NAP300DR amplifiers. In fact, Todes also commented that he found the Naim NDS rhythmically slightly tighter but also more mechanical compared to DAVE's fluency. They did not comment on how DAVE was fed.
  
 The issue I think is that as transparent as the Towshend Allegri is supposed to be, it is probably not as transparent as DAVE's digital volume control. It is also possible that there is a leakage current ground loop between the music source and DAVE, causing the sound quality to deteriorate, unfairly against the DAVE.
  
 Moreover, I found that the main Hi Fi Critic critics (Martin Colloms and Paul Messenger) are so enamored and used to R2R DACs sound that I suspect they may appreciate the distortions as more rhythmic and tight and the harmonic distortions as producing a wider soundstage. In the same issue, Bob Pyle expressed how he prefers Berkeley Alpha DAC Reference Series 2 over Audio Note (UK) DAC 5 Signature, Trinity DAC, dCS Vivaldi v2.0, CH Precision C-1. But once again, Martin Colloms still preferred the Naim NDS in his system, commenting that the Berkeley's presentation a touch measured and did not rock as powerfully as he would have liked.
  
 I guess one can argue I'm so used to Chord DAC sound that I'm biased and Martin Colloms is the objective one and R2R DACs are the best. Sure.
  
 This is the second time I was suckered by Hi Fi Critic where I paid to read a so-so review of a DAC I owned. I previously bought the article that reviewed the QBD76 and they spent most of the review describing the QBD76 without the full RAM buffer and saying that they felt the MSB Platinum DAC III sounded better. To be fair, Chris Bryant at the time felt the dCS Puccini/Paganini combo sounded even better and moreover, they raved about how perfect the measurements are for the QBD76.
  
 Because it's so expensive to get a hold of copies of HiFi Critic, it's hard to get a handle on their reviewers. I've learnt that there are critics/reviewers with whom I share a similar taste and there are ones where my opinion clearly diverges from theirs. I tend to just ignore their comments and focus on reading reviewers who share my taste.


----------



## Sonic77

Your from China? I'm gonna have to kung fu fight you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Oh and Happy New Year! Year of Rooster.
  
 Quote:


adyc said:


> My dealer told me first shipment to China late February.


 

 ​


----------



## analogmusic

adyc said:


> No worries about the rest of competitors. There are enough snobbish audiophiles who are put off by the low price of Chord products will continue to buy much more expensive but inferior DACs.


 
  
 Are these the same people who bought a 100 inch plasma 10 years ago that cost 100,000 dollars?
  
 Progress in technology will drive prices down, while giving much higher quality, but resulting in much higher volume of sales as the technology reaches more people and enhances more people quality of life
  
 The reason plasma was abandoned was because it cannot deliver 4K resolution, physically impossible to have such small plasma cells. 15 years ago plasma TV was a luxury for the rich people, nowadays 40 inch LED TV affordable.
  
 Compare a modern BMW from today to the M BMW cars of 20 years ago. Progress....
  
 If R2R could deliver analog like musicality then Rob Watts wouldn't have spent 30 years of his life resulting in Mscaler/Dave. 
  
 Having said all this, I was enjoying Mojo in my car, and was in musical heaven...... it is a dream come true to have Mojo, thank you Rob Watts and Chord.
  
 I don't know if anyone still makes r2R chips....?


----------



## iDesign

analogmusic said:


> Compare a modern BMW from today to the M BMW cars of 20 years ago.




The current M cars hardly represent progress from the legendary M cars Paul Rosche and Jochen Neerpasch developed. Rob Watts and John Franks have more in common with BMW Motorsports unmatched success in the 1980s than BMW M today. Your anology here isn't good but I understand the point.


----------



## analogmusic

ecwl said:


> I have the review in front of me. It was Rafael Todes who made the comment but I presume Martin Colloms would agree because Rafael Todes was comparing DAVE to Naim NDS with 555PS DR in Martin Colloms' system. The typical setup for Colloms is the Naim NDS with 555PS DR to Townshend Allegri passive preamplifier to Naim NAP500DR or NAP300DR amplifiers. In fact, Todes also commented that he found the Naim NDS rhythmically slightly tighter but also more mechanical compared to DAVE's fluency. They did not comment on how DAVE was fed.
> 
> The issue I think is that as transparent as the Towshend Allegri is supposed to be, it is probably not as transparent as DAVE's digital volume control. It is also possible that there is a leakage current ground loop between the music source and DAVE, causing the sound quality to deteriorate, unfairly against the DAVE.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
*I used to be* a real Naim fanboy myself..... nowadays I am happy listening to Mojo in my car, that is where I can listen to music for long periods of time. 
  
 You get all of the Rhythm and PRAT with Mojo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , and Mojo also is able to sound gentle and fluid with Ballads, really just plays any genre very well.


----------



## Ampus

jelt2359 said:


> I think the point of this thread is the right one. Owners like myself are giving feedback on what we'd like to see. With the release of the Mojo particularly I think Chord understands the market potential of going down, rather than upmarket in terms of price. This thread has also made me excited about what else could be in store. For example, why can't the "Mojo with and without HF on" also be updated to the Dave? I know plenty of people who attribute the Mojo's warmer tuning (vs the Hugo) to "lesser digital hash", and if that's their preference maybe this small tweak may end up helping Chord sell boatloads more Dave's.
> 
> Another way forward- and sometimes it really is that simple- if the pricing of the Blu2 is not about cost and so has some wiggle room, then perhaps offer a loyalty discount for Dave owners only? This will allow us to experience what only we can exploit fully (million) while being a nod to the sentiment that most of us really do not want a CDP. This way, there's no political issue for DAVE owners; those who want a top notch CDP continue to buy that; and DAVE owners get their "standalone M scaler" that just happens to come with a CDP, but with the knowledge that the CDP has been "priced out of the cost" somewhat.
> 
> ...




I completely agree with you that Chord Electronics should sell the Blu2 or a DAVE "companion" (i.e. M scaler) at a lower price point to current DAVE owners. With the Hugo 2 coming out, the SQ gap between Chord's lesser DAC and DAVE, according to Romaz, has narrowed significantly. DAVE owners now have to spend considerable more amount of money (after already paying an arm, a leg, and a testicle for DAVE) to get Blu MK2 or M scaler just to maintain the previous SQ gap. Raise your hands or voices if you think that this is fair for current DAVE owners, especially considering DAVE is a relatively new item. I think that current DAVE owners would be in for a rude awakening when Hugo TT2 comes out, same SQ as DAVE for a fraction of the price!!! The resale value of DAVE would plummet! This concern may be the reason why there are slowly more and more DAVE's for sale on the used market.


----------



## analogmusic

Now that was a very funny way to put it paying an arm leg and t....le
  
 Now we have to pay the other arm, leg and remaining t.....le for Blu2...
  





 
  
 Here's hoping to some discounts for Dave owners....


----------



## ubs28

I don't care if the Hugo 2 and Hugo TT 2 sound as good as the Chord Dave. I did my listening tests and the Chord Dave was the right buy for me at time with the options in the high-end segment available.

I am not going to upgrade my DAC for a very very long time. Even if the Dave + Blu MKII sounds 5 times better. 

The only upgrade I might do is if the Mojo 2 has much better battery life because I always have problems with the battery on the current Mojo.


----------



## analogmusic

There is a demand for MScaler and Poly in one box....
  
 but again, not at 8000 (choke) GBP
  
 Times are changing, at one time Panasonic was the largest manufacturers of Plasma in the world, but before that Pioneer made the finest Plasma with their Kuro, in 2008 they shut down manufacturing and got out of the plasma business.
  
 It was the right decision, just take a look at a LG OLED 4K TV today.
  
 I just can't understand companies selling 30 year R2R technology....


----------



## ubs28

Well, my Chord Dave is less than 1 year old and I have other way more expensive hobbies. So a DAC upgrade is not high on my list currently


----------



## tunes

1. Can the Hugo 2 directly drive the Hifiman HEK to its full potential with some volume headroom without clipping?

2. Is the Hugo 2 battery driven?

3. Is there a portable music server dap without amp that can store flac files and also receive streaming from TIDAL?


----------



## catalystcc

tunes said:


> 1. Can the Hugo 2 directly drive the Hifiman HEK to its full potential with some volume headroom without clipping?
> 
> 2. Is the Hugo 2 battery driven?
> 
> 3. Is there a portable music server dap without amp that can store flac files and also receive streaming from TIDAL?


 

 ​1. I don't think Hugo 2 can drive the Hifiman HEK to its full potential. It needs more output power like the Hifiman EF6 which has 5W at 50 Ohms.
 2. Yes
 3 Astell & Kern, Ibasso DX200, Onkyo DPX1 etc......


----------



## Mojo ideas

ecwl said:


> I have the review in front of me. It was Rafael Todes who made the comment but I presume Martin Colloms would agree because Rafael Todes was comparing DAVE to Naim NDS with 555PS DR in Martin Colloms' system. The typical setup for Colloms is the Naim NDS with 555PS DR to Townshend Allegri passive preamplifier to Naim NAP500DR or NAP300DR amplifiers. In fact, Todes also commented that he found the Naim NDS rhythmically slightly tighter but also more mechanical compared to DAVE's fluency. They did not comment on how DAVE was fed.
> 
> The issue I think is that as transparent as the Towshend Allegri is supposed to be, it is probably not as transparent as DAVE's digital volume control. It is also possible that there is a leakage current ground loop between the music source and DAVE, causing the sound quality to deteriorate, unfairly against the DAVE.
> 
> ...


 What can I saySome reviewers really favour competitors products for many, various and sometimes totally blindly mystifying and unjustifiable reasons. A reviewer often has no valid reason for doing so though often they have no real expertise or knollege either having drifted into the business so it's best to make your judgment through checking out as many reviews as is possible and then taking the consensus viewpoint.


----------



## x RELIC x

tunes said:


> 1. Can the Hugo 2 directly drive the Hifiman HEK to its full potential with some volume headroom without clipping?
> 
> 2. Is the Hugo 2 battery driven?
> 
> 3. Is there a portable music server dap without amp that can store flac files and also receive streaming from TIDAL?




Well, you may get more replies in the Hugo/Hugo2 threads, but since you asked.... :wink_face:

1. _Yes_. The HE-1000 has an impedance of 34 Ohms and requires 0.297Vrms to reach a SPL of 90dB. The Hugo2 will easily drive them loudly with room to spare without clipping. There are experienced owners using the Hugo1 to drive the HE-1000 and are quite happy with the pairing, and the Hugo2 is slightly more powerful than the Hugo1. 

For comparison, many users love the ALO CDM / HE-1000 pairing. The CDM outputs 125mW (balanced) in to 32 Ohms, while the Hugo outputs 600mW in to 32 Ohms. As for personal preference from different gear, well, that's where you read many differing opinions about 'full potential', but the math says no problem at all for the HE-1000 from the Hugo2.

2. Yes.

3. *No. There are no _portable_ transports _without_ an amp and Tidal streaming that I can think of that will feed the Hugo2 a digital signal. As previously mentioned you can use a less expensive DAP that has a digital output. Chord has announced the Poly for the Mojo and the Hugo2 is supposed to get it's own version of an add-on that will have a mSD card slot and you can use your smartphone to control it (and stream Tidal to it).

*Edit: You may want to look at the FiiO X7 ampless version. The firmware is buggy for some and stable for others, but you can get the device without an amp and stream Tidal with it.

Back to the DAVE...


----------



## TheAttorney

mojo ideas said:


> What can I saySome reviewers really favour competitors products for many, various and sometimes totally blindly mystifying and unjustifiable reasons. A reviewer often has no valid reason for doing so though often they have no real expertise or knollege either having drifted into the business so it's best to make your judgment through checking out as many reviews as is possible and then taking the consensus viewpoint.


 
 I agree.
  
 In this particular case in point, from a long way back, I have never found Martin Collom's conclusions to any hifi review to be of much value to me. His preferences and priorities just seem to be different to mine.


----------



## bmichels

May I ask again my question  : 
  
 Is the COAX SPDIF output (of the ARIES) the same thing than the BNC SPDIF input required by the Blu2 ?  
  
 Is an adapter needed between the ARIES and the Blu2 ?


----------



## JaZZ

It's not the same, but you don't need an adapter, just a cable with different plugs on both ends – coaxial S/PDIF and BNC.


----------



## GryphonGuy

Or one of these:


----------



## bmichels

gryphonguy said:


> Or one of these:


 
  
 thanks, this is good news that there is no need for an additional box.  And with this adapter, the cable just need to be a good 75 ohms COAX cable ?


----------



## JaZZ

bmichels said:


> And with this adapter, the cable just need to be a good 75 ohms COAX cable ?


 
  
 Yes, exactly.


----------



## Mojo ideas

jazz said:


> Yes, exactly.


 As cables at these ultra high frequencies tend to behave a bit like transmission lines. It's possible sometime using an adaptor on the end of what is really an audio cable rather than a high speed data cable problems in transmission can occur due to signals reflecting back from the cable/ adaptor interface


----------



## JaZZ

mojo ideas said:


> As cables at these ultra high frequencies tend to behave a bit like transmission lines. It's possible sometime using an adaptor on the end of what is really an audio cable rather than a high speed data cable problems in transmission can occur due to signals reflecting back from the cable/ adaptor interface


 
  
 Thanks, John!


----------



## romaz

tunes said:


> 1. Can the Hugo 2 directly drive the Hifiman HEK to its full potential with some volume headroom without clipping?
> 
> 2. Is the Hugo 2 battery driven?
> 
> 3. Is there a portable music server dap without amp that can store flac files and also receive streaming from TIDAL?


 
  
 Just to add to @x RELIC x's excellent response which I fully agree with, with regards to question #3, I believe Poly will fit the bill.  It can store and play back FLAC files on a microSD card and it can stream Tidal via wifi.  This feature was displayed to much success at CES.  I noticed no dropouts and SQ was excellent.  I know Chord is also exploring the incorporation of a hardware MQA decoder into Poly. While Poly will fit the Mojo like a glove, it can be used for Hugo 2.


----------



## JaZZ

tunes said:


> Can the Hugo 2 directly drive the Hifiman HEK to its full potential with some volume headroom without clipping?


 
  
 DAVE + HE1000 is my dream pairing. I also like the HE1000 with Hugo – a lot. Since the Hugo² is said to sound closer to the DAVE and have more power than the original Hugo, I don't doubt that it will be a dream pairing, too, for those who like this the sonic characteristic. As to the HE1000: To my ears it benefits a lot from a better cable (I use a Silver Dragon).


----------



## bmichels

mojo ideas said:


> As cables at these ultra high frequencies tend to behave a bit like transmission lines. It's possible sometime using an adaptor on the end of what is really an audio cable rather than a high speed data cable problems in transmission can occur due to signals reflecting back from the cable/ adaptor interface


 
  
 So, what is best ?  A cable with *coaxial on one end and BNC on the other end* ?  Does this cable exist in audiophile quality  ?


----------



## lovethatsound

bmichels said:


> So, what is best ?  A cable with *coaxial on one end and BNC on the other end* ?  Does this cable exist in audiophile quality  ?


Chord cables will be able to do one for you,just choose which one of their cables you want and let them know.


----------



## JaZZ

lovethatsound said:


> bmichels said:
> 
> 
> > So, what is best ?  A cable with *coaxial on one end and BNC on the other end* ?  Does this cable exist in audiophile quality  ?
> ...


 
  
 For the record: The Chord Company (cable manufacturer) is not identical with Chord Electronics.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I've been playing a CD of The Blind Boys of Alabama their Grammy award winning Soul Gospel album 'Spirit of the Century' recorded in March 2000. Cracking album. One of the best recordings of double bass I have ever heard. Well worth having in any audiophile collection I think. 

Some may know the Tom Waits penned signature tune 'Way Down in the Hole' used for the Series 'The Wire'? Well in the first series that song was performed by the Blind Boys of Alabama. Trust me, as soon as the double bass starts on the opening track you will realise this recording showcases Dave's strengths.


----------



## Kamil21

romaz said:


> You seem to misunderstand much about what is happening here.  HQPlayer and Rob's DACs both seek to accomplish the same thing, to bring you closer to the music by lifting veils resulting in greater depth and providing greater clarity of detail through_ upsampling_.  HQPlayer's ambitions, however, are more modest and limited by the hardware platform they choose to use, meaning a PC or Mac.  To upsample to DSD512 (or DSD1024), you need an incredibly powerful and noisy machine and yet with the FPGA in DAVE, Rob can upsample much higher and with the M-scaler in Blu Mk2, even higher still.
> 
> According to Miska, upsampling with HQP from 16/44 to 11.4MHz yields something like 4M taps but according to Rob, his method of calculating taps is incorrect and if he were to use this same formula, DAVE would have tens of millions of taps.
> 
> ...




I wanted to revive this discussion as I am lead to believe that Tidal does some MQA decoding on the computer. Apparently a high res MQA encoded file is folded into low res and decoded during playback. I am also lead to believe that the process also preserves the original timing and transient info of the original recording., but I do not really understand the science behind it.

I was wondering if you or anybody else has tried listening to MQA files which have been 'unfolded' via their computer and played back through Dave using Tidal as a player? 

Could this be Meridian's answer to the Chord scaler?


----------



## jelt2359

kamil21 said:


> I wanted to revive this discussion as I am lead to believe that Tidal does some MQA decoding on the computer. Apparently a high res MQA encoded file is folded into low res and decoded during playback. I am also lead to believe that the process also preserves the original timing and transient info of the original recording., but I do not really understand the science behind it.
> 
> I was wondering if you or anybody else has tried listening to MQA files which have been 'unfolded' via their computer and played back through Dave using Tidal as a player?
> 
> Could this be Meridian's answer to the Chord scaler?


 
 The problem with MQA today is two-fold:
  
 1) it is simply not clear if MQA tracks are mastered _different_, as opposed to just coded _better._
 2) availability. The day Meridian can get MQA applied to the vast majority of tracks that people listen to, the day that would be an 'answer to the Chord scaler'. The MQA technology is end to end- you need to master in MQA to begin with. With Chord, the technology applies to every single song. If you're the type who chooses tracks to listen to based on their technology, then sure that's the answer. I choose technology based on the tracks I listen to, which is the opposite. For example I never got into SACD, never went to DSD, and for MQA I'm not holding my breath either.
  
 In the meantime I continue to seek out good music regardless of format, and use it with my Dave. That's given me more bliss than any musical format.
  
 YMMV, of course!


----------



## jelt2359

jelt2359 said:


> I think the point of this thread is the right one. Owners like myself are giving feedback on what we'd like to see. With the release of the Mojo particularly I think Chord understands the market potential of going down, rather than upmarket in terms of price. This thread has also made me excited about what else could be in store. For example, why can't the "Mojo with and without HF on" also be updated to the Dave? I know plenty of people who attribute the Mojo's warmer tuning (vs the Hugo) to "lesser digital hash", and if that's their preference maybe this small tweak may end up helping Chord sell boatloads more Dave's.
> 
> Another way forward- and sometimes it really is that simple- if the pricing of the Blu2 is not about cost and so has some wiggle room, then perhaps offer a loyalty discount for Dave owners only? This will allow us to experience what only we can exploit fully (million) while being a nod to the sentiment that most of us really do not want a CDP. This way, there's no political issue for DAVE owners; those who want a top notch CDP continue to buy that; and DAVE owners get their "standalone M scaler" that just happens to come with a CDP, but with the knowledge that the CDP has been "priced out of the cost" somewhat.
> 
> ...


 
  


ampus said:


> I completely agree with you that Chord Electronics should sell the Blu2 or a DAVE "companion" (i.e. M scaler) at a lower price point to current DAVE owners. With the Hugo 2 coming out, the SQ gap between Chord's lesser DAC and DAVE, according to Romaz, has narrowed significantly. DAVE owners now have to spend considerable more amount of money (after already paying an arm, a leg, and a testicle for DAVE) to get Blu MK2 or M scaler just to maintain the previous SQ gap. Raise your hands or voices if you think that this is fair for current DAVE owners, especially considering DAVE is a relatively new item. I think that current DAVE owners would be in for a rude awakening when Hugo TT2 comes out, same SQ as DAVE for a fraction of the price!!! The resale value of DAVE would plummet! This concern may be the reason why there are slowly more and more DAVE's for sale on the used market.


 
  
 I don't think companies should be in the business of worrying about resale values. They should also certainly not hold products back just because they make previous products less desirable. Most companies see comments like that and say 'well, that's the way the industry works. Too bad.' And then they ignore the comments, as they should. But that would honestly be a shame- it's never a good idea to ignore customers. It's much, much cheaper and easier to retain customers who love your products already (and just need a little nudge to spend more with you), than to try and convert those who are currently fans of other brands. 
  
 In this context, that's why I wrote what I wrote. It wasn't in the vein of 'oh, I'm so upset', nor was it 'how could you make my Dave lose value', but rather my point was, 'Dear Chord, _*this *_is how you make more money'; '_*this *_is how you keep your loyal users'; and '_*this *_is how you get your unbelievable technology into the hands of more people, who will demo it to their friends, and help you earn more money'. Yes, two moneys, one stone! It was a win-win-win. I know Chord's reading this thread, so I hope they at least consider it. There is literally no downside to what I suggested.


----------



## EVOLVIST

daveredref-iii said:


> I've been playing a CD of The Blind Boys of Alabama their Grammy award winning Soul Gospel album 'Spirit of the Century' recorded in March 2000. Cracking album. One of the best recordings of double bass I have ever heard. Well worth having in any audiophile collection I think.
> 
> Some may know the Tom Waits penned signature tune 'Way Down in the Hole' used for the Series 'The Wire'? Well in the first series that song was performed by the Blind Boys of Alabama. Trust me, as soon as the double bass starts on the opening track you will realise this recording showcases Dave's strengths.




I'm going to have to check this out. Even better than the double bass on Elvis' recording of "Fever?" That has always been my go-to recording for a double bass. I'll have to compare with my FUs and DAVE. Boy, those Focal Utopias make the bass articulate without being flubby in the least. Very natural.


----------



## Kamil21

jelt2359 said:


> The problem with MQA today is two-fold:
> 
> 1) it is simply not clear if MQA tracks are mastered _different_, as opposed to just coded _better._
> 2) availability. The day Meridian can get MQA applied to the vast majority of tracks that people listen to, the day that would be an 'answer to the Chord scaler'. The MQA technology is end to end- you need to master in MQA to begin with. With Chord, the technology applies to every single song. If you're the type who chooses tracks to listen to based on their technology, then sure that's the answer. I choose technology based on the tracks I listen to, which is the opposite. For example I never got into SACD, never went to DSD, and for MQA I'm not holding my breath either.
> ...




I am not challenging the sound of Dave or content availability with Dave. Simply whether MQA from the computer would make an interim substitute to the Blu Mk2 Scaler as an input device into Dave.

Somebody has made comparisons between MQA and HQPlayer here and I now wonder how MQA stands with Blu. Also, while fully decoded MQA is end to end, interim decoding also works, and this is what I am talking about here on feeding the interim decoded output into my Dave.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/roon-and-mqa-software-decoding-coming-31155/index13.html

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/mqas-unexpected-twist/


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## jelt2359

kamil21 said:


> I am not challenging the sound of Dave or content availability with Dave. Simply whether MQA from the computer would make an interim substitute to the Blu Mk2 Scaler as an input device into Dave.
> 
> Somebody has made comparisons between MQA and HQPlayer here and I now wonder how MQA stands with Blu. Also, while fully decoded MQA is end to end, interim decoding also works, and this is what I am talking about here on feeding the interim decoded output into my Dave.
> 
> ...


 
 And I don't see them as substitutes at all. Whatever decoding you can get with MQA- you can _still_ upsample via the Blu Mk2 for even better quality. This can be done right now via Tidal Desktop -> USB to SPDIF converter -> Blu Mk2 -> Dave.
  
 The difference with HQP and Blu Mk2 is that HQP does not support MQA for now; whereas Blu Mk2 does not need to support MQA. But if and when HQP does support MQA, I assume you could still run MQA through the HQP algorithm: HQP (Mqa file) -> USB to SPDIF Converter -> Blu Mk2 -> Dave.
  
 Anyway, if you're asking specifically (as opposed to theoretically) about how Tidal Desktop (MQA) -> Dave sounds vs Non-MQA of any sort -> Blu Mk2 -> Dave, then it's probably best to check back in a few months. The Blu Mk2 is not in the hands of dealers yet.


----------



## jelt2359

evolvist said:


> I'm going to have to check this out. Even better than the double bass on Elvis' recording of "Fever?" That has always been my go-to recording for a double bass. I'll have to compare with my FUs and DAVE. Boy, those Focal Utopias make the bass articulate without being flubby in the least. Very natural.


 
 I read FUs and thought this was meant to be a satirical post for a moment. I too will have to check with my "FUs"!


----------



## romaz

kamil21 said:


> I wanted to revive this discussion as I am lead to believe that Tidal does some MQA decoding on the computer. Apparently a high res MQA encoded file is folded into low res and decoded during playback. I am also lead to believe that the process also preserves the original timing and transient info of the original recording., but I do not really understand the science behind it.
> 
> I was wondering if you or anybody else has tried listening to MQA files which have been 'unfolded' via their computer and played back through Dave using Tidal as a player?
> 
> Could this be Meridian's answer to the Chord scaler?


 
 At CES, I was told Rob and Chord are actively evaluating MQA.  They have been in possession of an MQA hardware decoder for some months but thus far, according to Rob and some within Chord, the impact of MQA with Chord DACs has been underwhelming (to be kind).  I believe Rob said it actually sounded worse and so I don't believe there are immediate plans to incorporate a hardware MQA decoder into any of Chord's DACs.  I was told Chord is exploring the idea of incorporating a hardware MQA decoder into Poly and so this could be used with any of Rob's DACs for those who desire it although if it clearly results in a step down in SQ, I have a hard time believing they will want to do it.
  
 Throughout the past year, I have sat through several MQA demos and I have found the impact of MQA to be variable.  What is odd is the hype with much of it seems unwarranted.  At the MQA booth at CES a couple of weeks ago and throughout the past year, there have been plenty of testimonials from musical artists, producers and other industry people claiming how MQA brought them to tears.  With the new MQA-enabled Aurender A10, I could barely tell the difference.  With the Mytek Brooklyn, there was a noticeable improvement but it wasn't night and day and Mytek + MQA certainly doesn't come close to what I have now.  With the MSB Select II, the improvement was significant and it was with the Select II that I first believed MQA could be legitimate.  If I owned the Select II, I would for sure pony up the $4k for their MQA decoder upgrade.  With MQA enabled on the Select II, the soundstage became more 3D especially with regards to depth.  Clarity also improved.  In many ways, it is indeed a similar improvement as HQPlayer with many chip DACs or the M-scaler with DAVE but in no way was the magnitude of improvement anywhere close to the same as M-scaler nor did I find myself reaching for my tissues.  I think with MQA, YMMV and with Rob's DACs, it will be similar to HQPlayer -- a step backward.  
  
 Nonetheless, for those insistent on hearing the impact of MQA with the DAVE, you can do so with Tidal and soon with Roon.  While software decoding won't be exactly the same as with a hardware decoder, it will get you halfway there and it should be enough to give you a taste.  The big concern is that if it ends up sounding worse on DAVE, hopefully, there will be a way to toggle it off.


----------



## halloweenman

I seem to remember reading rob himself takes a dedicated mscaler board (no cd) with him on his travels for his listening pleasure. If its true that Mr Franks is denying loyal hard cash paying Chord customers this same pleasure for commercial reasons, to protect Blu 2 sales or whatever, then I hope he sees the light and changes his mind. Can we please have a dedicated mscaler device?


----------



## analogmusic

John Franks and Rob Watts really are our friends.
  
 Why else would they release Hugo 2, which will give quite a big increase in sound quality compared to Mojo and Hugo, for people like me, who mostly can only enjoy hi-fi "on the go" - in my case in my car.
  
 I own Dave, but listen to Mojo a lot more than Dave during the day...
  
 The real charm for me still is Mojo and Hugo, "you go" allowing me to enjoy very high quality sound everywhere.
  
 I also read many of Rob Watts posts over the year, and the real game changer was the interpolation filters in Hugo, that was the musical breakthrough rather than an increase in taps
  
 In his own words : "The filtering was a three stage digital filter, and *means I can recreate the analogue waveform accurately to a 9.6 nS resolution*. All other DAC's work to a resolution of at most 16FS, which is only 1.4 uS. Moreover, getting to this resolution is not good either, as they have very limited tap lengths so it has gross timing errors too. The fact that I have very long tap length WTA filters, *plus the fact that filtering is at 9.6nS resolution*, gives Mojo this unique timing performance - *and its that, above all else, that gives it its musicality."*
  
 Of course I am very much interested in Mscaler, but not everyone has that kind of cash.
  
 Mscaler doesn't make Hugo, Mojo any less musical today, there is not OTA update that disabled their musicality, so sometimes ignorance is bliss.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

halloweenman said:


> I seem to remember reading rob himself takes a dedicated mscaler board (no cd) with him on his travels for his listening pleasure. If its true that Mr Franks is denying loyal hard cash paying Chord customers this same pleasure for commercial reasons, to protect Blu 2 sales or whatever, then I hope he sees the light and changes his mind. Can we please have a dedicated mscaler device?




Firstly, I am sure Chord are not 'denying' you or anybody else anything. All they have done is revamp an old product in a very new way. This backlash toward the Blu2 M Scaler product and its design is starting to go too far now I think. Blu and Red Ref III were a somewhat neglected part of the product range until this latest announcement. Remember the latter product is one of Chords most expensive at £16k. What of those customers? All Chord has done is reinvigorate a part of their product range and I am absolutely convinced (given their track record) that they will continue to invigorate and innovate other areas of their product range by leveraging their unique class leading tech. 

Top products take time to develop and ensure they are released with the minimum likelihood of failing. It is not realistic to expect Chord to announce M Scaler in 4 products at the same time. This is a great thread where both John and Rob provide valuable feedback and views. Providing your own feedback and wants is healthy. Unwarranted and ill informed repeated criticism is not and I have seen that creeping into some posts more recently. Please don't let it deteriorate into a 'kick Chord' thread simply because some people are frustrated at waiting for a product which more specifically reflects their preferred choice of listening. The Blu2 M Scaler and Dave Dac is a single £16k product to my mind. It just comes in 2 boxes. Most will not realise it (or care even) but imo this was an astute commercial decision by Chord. One that could have an important influence on Chords ability to develop some of the more coveted industry lines to market. John Franks doesn't need browbeating to see commercial opportunities. He knows an opportunity when he sees it and he deserves a little more respect imo.

Anyway, I'll get my soap box now.


----------



## AndrewOld

romaz said:


> No, I speak for myself but I do try and look at things from the perspective of both the manufacturer and the consumer.  Production of the Blu 2 has not started and so I have no binding commitment to it at this stage.  If I had a choice, like most, I would opt for a standalone M-scaler for myself, especially one with multiple digital inputs and especially USB and who wouldn't want to pay less.
> 
> I am pragmatic enough, however, that if I have been told that a standalone M-scaler isn't in the works and that Davina is likely to cost the same, then I have to decide whether to move forward or to wait and I have chosen to move forward.


 
  
 Romaz - Good to hear that, given the choice, you too would prefer a standalone M-Scaler and that you haven't yet made a binding commitment to a Blu2. Hi Fi shows are exciting places, it's a great thrill to hear a ground-breaking product and fun be an early adopter. But unless you have a huge CD collection which is unripped I think you might be wise to reflect a little before  finally committing yourself to a Blu2. If that's the way you go you will have to live with a USB to s/pdif converter. You have already found audible differences between them, so that's not likely to satifsfy you and certainly not optimum - a full Chord solution would be much better for sure. Nor will you have other inputs for other sources - perhaps an existing or future streamer, perhaps audio output from music Blu Rays, who knows. 
  
 So your pals come round and exclaim, "Hey Romaz, what's that!?!". "That's my new cd player" you say. "But you haven't got any cds" they say, puzzled. "Ah but it makes my DAC sound even better" you reply. "Uh Uh" they nod. "What's that  funny box hanging out of the back?" they ask. "Well, that is a Brand X  USB to s/pdif convertor" you tell them. "So, let us get the right ... you bought a cd player but you haven't got any cds and although you do have a pc, this new wonderful box can't actually be connected to it directly ... How much did it cost?" ....
  
 There's also the issue of the likely second-hand value of a Blu2. CD is a defunct medium, there is a tiny market for high end CD players, you would likely take a big hit on the second hand price of a BLU2. Even if all that comes out is the Davina with USB input, as soon as it does come out your Blu2 will have lost any appeal to the large number of DAVE owners who have no CDs.
  
 As far as the Davina being "likely to cost the same" I believe that Rob has said that the price hasn't been decided yet, or the configuration, so it is still quite reasonable to press for a stand alone M Scaler. I don't expect it it be many thousands cheaper than a Blu2, nor do I expect a discount for DAVE owners. But I do think the investment that DAVE owners have made in Chord should be respected. And I wouldn't complain if Chord took the opportunity to fix some of the small annoyances of the DAVE - the restricted functionality of the remote control, the need for the Jitterbug.
  
 I realise that for Rob the Davina is an exciting project in that it enables him to close the loop, but few hifi users will have any use for an ADC, and there are very few recordings that can be made with just a two channel ADC so it seems to me the Davina may be more a research project with very limited applicability, whereas a M Scaler will appeal to everyone with a DAVE, (including you!).
  
 John Franks says he comes from a background where "Electronics within aviation demanded perfection and superior attention to detail, and above all, designs had to be best they possibly could for the intended application."
  
 Neither a  BLU2 nor a Davina is the best it possibly could be for the application of playing back music from your pc or streaming.
  
 So, maybe if we all keep a little pressure on Chord they will re-evaluate what might have been a too hasty decision revealed to soon.


----------



## EVOLVIST

At this point in time I'm waiting to see how the Davina shakes out, as it is also reported to be a DDC and not just an ADC. 

This is good for me, because if I want to do some home recordings, or better yet, loan my Davina to my buddy's studio for a nominal fee, the Davina could pay for itself. 

Of course that's right now. I could totally change my mind. But maybe in another 6 months more data will sway me one way or the other... Or not at all.


----------



## TheAttorney

daveredref-iii said:


> This backlash toward the Blu2 M Scaler product and its design is starting to go too far now I think.


 
 I don't think this is a "backlash". In my case, all I asked Rob and John to do was to think about it. And that's more or less what others are asking for.
  
 It's perfectly ok to introduce a new CD player to bring an older model up to date.
 It's perfectly ok that the new CD player includes some new technology that improves upon the technology in their current line up.
 It's perfectly ok (rather brilliant actually) that the improvement exceeds all expectations, and so leapfrogs over the previous best.
 And it's perfectly ok that the new technology can't suddenly be retro-fitted into everything else. These things take time.   
  
 But it is also perfectly ok for users of the current line up to want to get hold of that new supa dupa technology - without feeling forced into a perceived inappropriately high cost or wasted functionality. When it is *so obvious* that the M-scaler bit could conceptually be easily separated out from the CD player bit. 
  
 The reason why the debate seems to be heating up is that Rob and John have not given a single response to the biggest swell of users requests since the thread launch. This may be for sound commercial reasons. Or maybe they're still waiting to see how this pans out more. And it just fans the flame when various people jump in on their behalf saying, in effect, stop complaining and pay up!  When it is *so obvious* that better solutions are possible. If it isn't so obvious, then maybe John or Rob could elaborate to cool things down?


----------



## STR-1

Well said, Attorney.


----------



## ecwl

Back to MQA, perhaps others who know more can correct me. I think of MQA as two things combined, a lossy compression scheme and a digital filter specifier. Even though MQA can compress 24/192 or 24/384 into 24/48, most MQA files are actually 24/88 to 24/44 or 24/96 to 24/48. This is why Tidal can do software decoding for the decompression. 

But most DACs would take the 24/96 file and use a digital filter to upsample to 24/384 or at least 24/192. So the hardware enabled MQA DACs will allow MQA to specify what digital filter to use to upsample that 24/96 file to 24/384. Keep in mind these are short tap length digital filters and they may be apodising or non-apodising. The assumption is that by choosing a specific filter, these short tap length filters can restore the original timing of the signal better. But in my mind, that's a bit of a cheat because you're always better off using longer tap length Chord WTA filters to do the upsampling from 24/96 to 24/768. 

I think that's why Romaz was generally unimpressed with MQA and still prefer Chord. Moreover, it also explains why MQA works better with MSB Select II because you're not feeding MSB a CD file and expecting it to use the short tap length filters to upsample to 24/384, you're now feeding MSB a 24/96 file and using an MQA specified presumably apodising filter to upsample the file to 24/384 for MSB to play it back.

Perhaps someone with more technical knowledge about MQA can correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Mojo ideas

romaz said:


> Just to add to @x RELIC x
> 's excellent response which I fully agree with, with regards to question #3, I believe Poly will fit the bill.  It can store and play back FLAC files on a microSD card and it can stream Tidal via wifi.  This feature was displayed to much success at CES.  I noticed no dropouts and SQ was excellent.  I know Chord is also exploring the incorporation of a hardware MQA decoder into Poly. While Poly will fit the Mojo like a glove, it can be used for Hugo 2.


 Hugo2 will have its own matching unit with additional desk top features of course.


----------



## bmichels

mojo ideas said:


> .....with additional desk top features of course.


 
  
 1 Tb internal SSD ?  or 2 full size SD slots ?  or MQA hardware decoding ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   or... all 3 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 ?


----------



## jelt2359

bmichels said:


> 1 Tb internal SSD ?  or 2 full size SD slots ?  or MQA hardware decoding ?     or... all 3 :atsmile:   ?




CD player!!!


----------



## analogmusic

So Hugo and Mojo get the Poly hi-tech streamer, and Dave owners get the BNC input Upsampling CD player?


----------



## Light - Man

jelt2359 said:


> CD player!!!


 
  
 I wonder why don't they have a gramophone player strapped on top instead of the CD spinner - seemingly they are back in fashion?


----------



## PANURUS

light - man said:


> I wonder why don't they have a gramophone player strapped on top instead of the CD spinner - seemingly they are back in fashion?


 
 If I understood the benefit of the lack of preamp thanks to the Dave,
 And that I therefore foresee the interest of acquiring a digital amp,
 And that I hope to still listen to my record heritage,
 Then a Davina, equipped with the RIAA equation, represents a relevant solution.
 Now that you have specified the operation of the Davina, recording and "M-scaler", I believe that the interest is further increased because although the functionality RIAA will not concern all the current users of the Dave,
 She should be challenged and at least attracted a new customer at Chord.
 The advantage of being able to digitize its discs and therefore to listen to them later, protected from the vibrations of the loudspeakers opens the door to the purchase of record player of less seismic quality. So a budget transfer in favor of Chord.
 The Davina with RIAA is, in my eyes, not a technological curiosity but a point of passage of our culture (stored on an old support that constitute the direct engravings).
 More Chord develops its products, the more we discover the qualities implemented during the old recordings.
 The Davina will turn, equipped so, the look of fans of analog to the amplifiers of the future.

 So several features grouped in a box or several boxes?
 A Davina soon and an M-scaler in how many months and to spare what?
 Let's be modern: How much of Dave's owner would be ready to pay for Chord to add an M-scaler and that while the Davina has not yet been presented?
 I think it is interesting to discuss the desire for a future product. I can not believe that the resources available for development are not related to the flow of much of what Chord already has in the making.
 To give us an serious answer,while there is still so much unknown on the return of some investments like " Poly family" seems me difficult.


----------



## analogmusic

Linn stopped making CD players back in 2009....


----------



## AndrewOld

light - man said:


> I wonder why don't they have a gramophone player strapped on top instead of the CD spinner - seemingly they are back in fashion? :blink:




Maybe they'll do that with the Davina and sell it as a way of digitising your vinyl!


----------



## EVOLVIST

andrewold said:


> Maybe they'll do that with the Davina and sell it as a way of digitising your vinyl!




I would think you would be able to digitize vinyl with Davina, or does that go without saying?


----------



## AndrewOld

evolvist said:


> I would think you would be able to digitize vinyl with Davina, or does that go without saying?




I would think that you would also be able to connect a stand-alone CD mechanism to a stand-alone M Scaler ... but ours is not to reason why, seemingly.


----------



## AndrewOld

analogmusic said:


> So Hugo and Mojo get the Poly hi-tech streamer, and Dave owners get the BNC input Upsampling CD player?


 

 Seems so. Smart, eh?  (Though we don't yet know how smart the Poly will be. Hardware looks good, but it will be a disaster if the software isn't up to it. Maybe they should include a portable cd mechanism so you can rip as you go.)


----------



## lovethatsound

andrewold said:


> I would think that you would also be able to connect a stand-alone CD mechanism to a stand-alone M Scaler ... but ours is not to reason why, seemingly.


That's a good point you could,but what alot of you guys are missing is this,the only peace of equipment that can take full advantage of the Dave is going to be the blu 2,because it has Daul outputs.Maybe chord should bring something out like naims hdx with Daul outputs on,then maybe everyone would be happy.☺


----------



## romaz

daveredref-iii said:


> Firstly, I am sure Chord are not 'denying' you or anybody else anything. All they have done is revamp an old product in a very new way. This backlash toward the Blu2 M Scaler product and its design is starting to go too far now I think. Blu and Red Ref III were a somewhat neglected part of the product range until this latest announcement. Remember the latter product is one of Chords most expensive at £16k. What of those customers? All Chord has done is reinvigorate a part of their product range and I am absolutely convinced (given their track record) that they will continue to invigorate and innovate other areas of their product range by leveraging their unique class leading tech.


  

  
 Quote:


theattorney said:


> I don't think this is a "backlash". In my case, all I asked Rob and John to do was to think about it. And that's more or less what others are asking for.
> 
> But it is also perfectly ok for users of the current line up to want to get hold of that new supa dupa technology - without feeling forced into a perceived inappropriately high cost or wasted functionality. When it is *so obvious* that the M-scaler bit could conceptually be easily separated out from the CD player bit.


 
  
 I agree with both sentiments expressed above.  Blu (and Red) have been overdue for upgrades for some time and so Blu 2 is a bone thrown for those who still value CDs and have been patiently waiting for this upgrade.  I believe we underestimate this market, that it is much larger than we think.  John has done very well with knowing what is been best for his company over the years and there is no debate that he and Rob are on a roll and so if Blu 2 is what he feels is best for Chord at this time, who are we to criticize?
  
 At the same time, I also feel that there's nothing wrong with voicing our preference for a standalone M-scaler and that we are fortunate to have a forum where we can do so and be heard.  While there may be no immediate plans to release such a product, if the demand is there (and it's clear that there is), I can't imagine that Chord won't deliver in due time.  Whether it will be much cheaper, I'm not convinced.


----------



## AndrewOld

lovethatsound said:


> That's a good point you could,but what alot of you guys are missing is this,the only peace of equipment that can take full advantage of the Dave is going to be the blu 2,because it has Daul outputs.Maybe chord should bring something out like naims hdx with Daul outputs on,then maybe everyone would be happy.☺


 

 A stand alone M Scaler would have dual outputs too. Since people will have to use a third party USB to s/pdif convertor to get their music into Blu2 and then out into their DAVE, it follows that they could just as easily use a third party cd mech, or a new stand-alone Chord CD mechanism if they want the matching casework. If the argument is that there are lots of people who still play CDs then many of those will have decent mechanisms with s/pdif outputs. They too would be potential customers for a stand alone M Scaler. Win Win.


----------



## AndrewOld

> Originally Posted by *romaz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Blu (and Red) have been overdue for upgrades for some time and so Blu 2 is a bone thrown for those who still value CDs and have been patiently waiting for this upgrade.


 
  
 How is the Blu2 an upgrade to the Blu?  Presumably the Blu2 gets exactly the same digits from the CD as the Blu, so offers no advantage in the digital domain. The Blu has an s/pdif output, so could easily be used to feed a stand-alone M Scaler, just as it is being proposed people use a USB to s/pdif convertor to feed a Blu2. This would assume these folk already have a DAVE. Some will. But the ones that don't have an outboard DAC won't be able to use the Blu2 unless they also buy a DAVE and take a big hit on the trade in. That's a big ask.


----------



## romaz

andrewold said:


> How is the Blu2 an upgrade to the Blu?  Presumably the Blu2 gets exactly the same digits from the CD as the Blu, so offers no advantage in the digital domain. The Blu has an s/pdif output, so could easily be used to feed a stand-alone M Scaler, just as it is being proposed people use a USB to s/pdif convertor to feed a Blu2. This would assume these folk already have a DAVE. Some will. But the ones that don't have an outboard DAC won't be able to use the Blu2 unless they also buy a DAVE and take a big hit on the trade in. That's a big ask.


 
 Blu2 is a big upgrade to Blu from the standpoint of the M-scaler.  This is what this is all about.
  
 There are those who value CDs who don't wish to own both a CD transport and a separate upscaler which would require more shelf space and another mains cable.  This integrated combo serves these folks very well.
  
 Should friends come over and see a tiny music server behind Blu 2 and realize that it is the music server that is delivering the music, it won't take them long to realize that it is the M-scaler in Blu 2 that is responsible for the magic and not the tiny music server.  The attached CD transport, even if it is superfluous, is not what is relevant here.  
  
 Blu2 will benefit DAVE owners the most but will still likely represent a HUGE upgrade for owners of other DACs.  As to taking a big hit in the 2nd hand market, I completely disagree.  Should I decide to move away from Blu2 in the next year or two, I know many well-heeled dCS and MSB owners who are used to spending much more for components such as Blu2 with much less return in SQ and I believe these folks would likely jump at it once they hear the massive improvement that it provides to their system whether they spin CDs or utilize an outboard music server.  I have had several friends buy DAVEs simply by coming over and hearing my system.  I'm pretty confident that Blu 2 will sell itself once people hear it.
  
 As for USB-to-SPDIF converters, I believe I may have found a converter that actually improves upon my USB solution and while not inexpensive, it clears the way for me to move forward with Blu2 without compromise.


----------



## adyc

Care to let us know what USB-SPDIF converter you are going to use?


----------



## bigfatpaulie

romaz said:


> As for USB-to-SPDIF converters, I believe I may have found a converter that actually improves upon my USB solution and while not inexpensive, it clears the way for me to move forward with Blu2 without compromise.


 
  
 Lest my wallet be still....  I wait with baited breath.


----------



## romaz

adyc said:


> Care to let us know what USB-SPDIF converter you are going to use?


 
  


bigfatpaulie said:


> Lest my wallet be still....  I wait with baited breath.


 
  
 This converter is a prototype that is being made for me (about $1,100) and will be powered by my Paul Hynes supply.  I don't want to discredit the company in the event it doesn't sound good and so I won't name the company or the product yet but I have very high expectations for it based on their pedigree and track record.  I hope to receive it within the next 2 weeks for testing.


----------



## Kamil21

romaz said:


> This converter is a prototype that is being made for me (about $1,100) and will be powered by my Paul Hynes supply.  I don't want to discredit the company in the event it doesn't sound good and so I won't name the company or the product yet but I have very high expectations for it based on their pedigree and track record.  I hope to receive it within the next 2 weeks for testing.




What would be really interesting to find out is if the converter improves the sound of converted USB->SPDIF into Dave as opposed to USB directly into Dave.


----------



## jelt2359

bigfatpaulie said:


> Lest my wallet be still....  I wait with baited breath.


 
 Good pilgrim, thou doth wrong thy wallet too much, which mannerly devotion shows in this, for saints have wallets that pilgrims hands do open, and money in hand is holy palmers' bliss.


----------



## EVOLVIST

I know my thoughts are born out of pure ignorance, simply because I know what I know, and also nobody has mentioned it; still, I would like to know, how is the DAVE - or any DAC for that matter - not a bottleneck when it comes to such a high-end source like the Blue2?

So the DAVE has 164K taps. The Blue2 has 1M. So, you're sending one millions taps into a device that can only process 164K taps, yes? Or probably no, but I'm trying to understand the science of it. 

The amount if bits doesn't change, and neither does the frequencies, but if the DAVE only has X amount of processing power, and it's receiving an even greater amount of X, how is that not a bottleneck?


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> I know my thoughts are born out of pure ignorance, simply because I know what I know, and also nobody has mentioned it; still, I would like to know, how is the DAVE - or any DAC for that matter - not a bottleneck when it comes to such a high-end source like the Blue2?
> 
> So the DAVE has 164K taps. The Blue2 has 1M. So, you're sending one millions taps into a device that can only process 164K taps, yes? Or probably no, but I'm trying to understand the science of it.
> 
> The amount if bits doesn't change, and neither does the frequencies, but if the DAVE only has X amount of processing power, and it's receiving an even greater amount of X, how is that not a bottleneck?


 
 With respect to upsampling, the M-scaler in Blu2 is now doing all the heavy lifting and the DSP cores in DAVE are now mostly laying dormant.  Basically, the 1M taps are coming from M-scaler's much more powerful FPGA.  As DAVE's FPGA is now less stressed due to fewer responsibilities, it is likely now injecting less noise into the ground plane and Rob has theorized that this could be one reason why the SQ improvement is beyond what he was expecting.
  
 This is why M-scaler will likely be transformational for any DAC, even non-Chord DACs, but because only DAVE has broad enough bandwidth through its dual DX connectors to fully harness the M-scaler's capabilities, then the money spent on Blu2 or Davina will go twice as far for owners of DAVE.


----------



## halloweenman

mojo ideas said:


> Hugo2 will have its own matching unit with additional desk top features of course.




John, will one of those desktop features be a usb input with galvanic isolation? If so then I'll definitely be auditioning it.


----------



## Mojo ideas

halloweenman said:


> John, will one of those desktop features be a usb input with galvanic isolation? If so then I'll definitely be auditioning it.


 Most galvanic isolation designs only works for lower sample rates like 44.1 48kHz however Robs implementation will work throughout the whole of the higher frequency sample rates too. He does this by electrically floating the USB chip. The chip then needs about 80milli Amperes or so of power to come from the hoste device. So for instance a phone would run down faster than it would normally. 
This is why we don't implement it on our mobile products and those we expect to be often connected to phones and mobile devices via USB. 
It should be realised that all mobile devices like phones really do not have any ground modulation to speak of! So it's not needed much these days as people have generally long since thrown away threir old large rickety personal computers that suffered from large amounts of ground modulation and earth loop problems modern laptops do not. Also our Dacs are highly Immuned to Jitter by virtue of Robs design so this is not a problem for us either. So we have galvanic isolation on our system Dacs snd not those we expect to be linked to phones.


----------



## AndrewOld

romaz said:


> Blu2 is a big upgrade to Blu from the standpoint of the M-scaler.  This is what this is all about.


 
  
 Blu2 is not an upgrade to Blu from the stand point of playing cds at all. If someone is using a Blu to play cds straight then a Blu2 is of absolutely no use to them as it does not have analogue outputs. If someone is using a Blu into a DAVE then a stand-alone M Scaler would be just as big an upgrade, at less cost and inconvenience. They would just connect into the M Scaler via s/pdif.
  


romaz said:


> As for USB-to-SPDIF converters, I believe I may have found a converter that actually improves upon my USB solution and while not inexpensive, it clears the way for me to move forward with Blu2 without compromise.


 
  
 So a grand or more for a converter, plus hundreds more for power supplies and cables and you still don't have an optimum solution. Just a mess. A USB input (or dare I dream a streamed input) would leave the M Scaler/DAVE in charge of the clock; with s/pdif you are still to an extent at the mercy of the clock in your convertor. To say nothing of having to disconnect it all if you want to use other sources.
  
 A stand-alone M Scaler is just much more sensible. 
  


romaz said:


> Should I decide to move away from Blu2 in the next year or two, I know many well-heeled dCS and MSB owners who are used to spending much more for components such as Blu2 with much less return in SQ and I believe these folks would likely jump at it once they hear the massive improvement that it provides to their system whether they spin CDs or utilize an outboard music server.  I have had several friends buy DAVEs simply by coming over and hearing my system.  I'm pretty confident that Blu 2 will sell itself once people hear it.


 
  
  
 Same folks, and more of them, would jump even higher at a stand alone M Scaler. And even if Chord stick to their half declared plans, the Davina will be around in the next year, so who will want a Blu2 with a spaghetti of USB to spdif converters and cables?


----------



## Mojo ideas

andrewold said:


> Blu2 is not an upgrade to Blu from the stand point of playing cds at all. If someone is using a Blu to play cds straight then a Blu2 is of absolutely no use to them as it does not have analogue outputs. If someone is using a Blu into a DAVE then a stand-alone M Scaler would be just as big an upgrade, at less cost and inconvenience. They would just connect into the M Scaler via s/pdif.
> 
> 
> So a grand or more for a converter, plus hundreds more for power supplies and cables and you still don't have an optimum solution. Just a mess. A USB input (or dare I dream a streamed input) would leave the M Scaler/DAVE in charge of the clock; with s/pdif you are still to an extent at the mercy of the clock in your convertor. To say nothing of having to disconnect it all if you want to use other sources.
> ...


 But the original Blu had no analogue outputs either so your premise that Blu2 is not an upgrade is not right. It's just that Rob took the upgrade and ran with it and has produced something that we at Chord thought would not have been achievable for many years yet. So we gave him the time to complete his masterpiece and we are thrilled with the results.


----------



## AndrewOld

mojo ideas said:


> But the original Blu had no analogue outputs either so your premise that Blu2 is not an upgrade is not right. It's just that Rob took the upgrade and ran with it and has produced something that we at Chord thought would not have been achievable for many years yet. So we gave him the time to complete his masterpiece and we are thrilled with the results.


 

 The current Blu surely does have analogue outputs, so my premise based on your current product, is correct.
  
 I am sure the M Scaler is a masterpiece. But the even the master himself, Rob, will not use it to listen to cds with - like many of us, his music is on his hard drive. Right now he has to suffer the embarrassment of using a third party USB to s/pdif convertor which can hardly be satisfying. Certainly not a solution that I would find acceptable. 
  
 There is no reason why adding a cd drive made the M Scaler technology available any quicker. Indeed, it must have added complexity. It certainly adds cost. 
  
 So a stand-alone M Scaler would be a much more sensible product for Rob, for me and for the many other DAVE owners who are excited by this new development and want to share in it. 
  
 You say on your website that  "Electronics within aviation demanded perfection and superior attention to detail, and above all, designs had to be best they possibly could for the intended application." and that these values inspire you at Chord.
  
There is absolutely no way that a Blu2 is a sensible design, or the best it possibly could be, for someone with a DAVE and who uses it for music from a hard drive or internet stream.
  
 I truly hope you listen to your customers, all of them, because right now more than a few DAVE owners are disappointed in the direction you seem to be taking.
  
 And while we are discussing this issue can I also say how disappointing it is to find out critical information about your products and plans from third party posters on internet forums rather than from you directly. This is not professional.


----------



## Crgreen

As a matter of interest, this month's Hi-Fi News has a favourable review of the Mutec MC-3+, essentially a reclocking device with multiple inputs and outputs which will provide USB to s/pdif conversion on BNC, priced at £800.00. On the face of it, this would provide an interface between any digital output and the Blu 2.


----------



## Hubert H

Andrew, I assume that you do not have a BLU? It is a transport, no analogue connections, the One is a player with analogue outputs.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Andrew
"The current Blu surely does have analogue outputs, so my premise based on your current product, is correct."
Do you realise you were disagreeing with the guy who produced the Blu? It is a transport with no analogue op. It was designed to connect digitally to the DAC.

Outputs:

1x Coaxial BNC Output
1x Dual Data 176.4kHz twin Coaxial BNC Output (ie. For use with Chord Electronics ‘Dave’)
1x Optical Touslink Output
2x AES/EBU XLR or 1x Dual Data AES twin XLR Output


----------



## Hubert H

andrewold said:


> The current Blu surely does have analogue outputs, so my premise based on your current product, is correct.
> 
> I am sure the M Scaler is a masterpiece. But the even the master himself, Rob, will not use it to listen to cds with - like many of us, his music is on his hard drive. Right now he has to suffer the embarrassment of using a third party USB to s/pdif convertor which can hardly be satisfying. Certainly not a solution that I would find acceptable.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Actually Andrew, I think you are getting a little hysterical and maybe a bit rude.


----------



## ubs28

The screen of the Chord Dave sometimes goes off and on quickly. Is there something wrong with my unit?


----------



## AndrewOld

hubert h said:


> Andrew, I assume that you do not have a BLU? It is a transport, no analogue connections, the One is a player with analogue outputs.


 

 No I don't have a BLU or a CD player - I abandoned such things a decade or so ago. I take your point, but I still disagree with it! The BLU has an s/pdif output. Were there to be an M Scaler, BLU owners could connect into it via s/pdif. The BLU will get just the same bits off the cd as the BLU2.  A straight M Scaler has to cost less than a Blu2. If I did have a BLU and a DAVE I'd much rather get a straight M Scaler, since it would cost less than the Blu2 and avoid me taking a trade in hit on the BLU. If I had a BLU and a non-DAVE DAC I guess I would be looking at the DAVE first.
  
 Stand alone M Scaler. Win win win. You know it makes sense!


----------



## Hubert H

ubs28 said:


> The screen of the Chord Dave sometimes goes off and on quickly. Is there something wrong with my unit?


 

 No, it's due to a change of state being written to the memory. So, change the volume, input etc and the Dave will write this to memory 20 seconds or so later. The screnn blanks while it does this.


----------



## ubs28

hubert h said:


> No, it's due to a change of state being written to the memory. So, change the volume, input etc and the Dave will write this to memory 20 seconds or so later. The screnn blanks while it does this.


 
  
 But I don't change anything when this happens. I suppose stuff is still written to memory and the screen will go blank?


----------



## Hubert H

andrewold said:


> No I don't have a BLU or a CD player - I abandoned such things a decade or so ago. I take your point, but I still disagree with it! The BLU has an s/pdif output. Were there to be an M Scaler, BLU owners could connect into it via s/pdif. The BLU will get just the same bits off the cd as the BLU2.  A straight M Scaler has to cost less than a Blu2. If I did have a BLU and a DAVE I'd much rather get a straight M Scaler, since it would cost less than the Blu2 and avoid me taking a trade in hit on the BLU. If I had a BLU and a non-DAVE DAC I guess I would be looking at the DAVE first.
> 
> Stand alone M Scaler. Win win win. You know it makes sense!


 

 That doesn't make sense, how can you disagree with a fact? The BLU is a transport with no analogue outputs, as everyone including the designer has told you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I have a BLU and kept it in the hope of an upgrade, a hope inferred by Chord, but I will sell it now, que sara. Things move on.


----------



## Hubert H

Be c


ubs28 said:


> But I don't change anything when this happens. I suppose stuff is still written to memory and the screen will go blank?


 

 Be careful as I think I haven't done anything and see the screen blank only to remember I changed the volume.
  
 You might have an issue but a blanking screen certainly happens ~20 seconds after a change of state and is normal.


----------



## Kamil21

crgreen said:


> As a matter of interest, this month's Hi-Fi News has a favourable review of the Mutec MC-3+, essentially a reclocking device with multiple inputs and outputs which will provide USB to s/pdif conversion on BNC, priced at £800.00. On the face of it, this would provide an interface between any digital output and the Blu 2.




It's also very interesting to hear the editor saying that "Most Hi-Fi News reviewers believe audio over S/PDIF sounds superior to USB."

So now I wonder if an integral CD transport on Blu Mk2 would sound better than S/PDIF! Hope we will be able to test this out once it is released.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Can't wait!


----------



## Hubert H

kamil21 said:


> It's also very interesting to hear the editor saying that "Most Hi-Fi News reviewers believe audio over S/PDIF sounds superior to USB."
> 
> So now I wonder if an integral CD transport on Blu Mk2 would sound better than S/PDIF! Hope we will be able to test this out once it is released.


 

 Yes, but that's testing against a variety of USB implementations, it's not the architecture that's being compared but the implementation.
  
 When I now read that 'A' was better than Dave because it had a wider soundstage despite not being as deep I know it's because they prefer that distortion, similar to a bright edge giving the idea of more resolution.
  
 Ultimately they should all sound exactly the same.


----------



## miketlse

andrewold said:


> The current Blu surely does have analogue outputs, so my premise based on your current product, is correct.
> 
> I am sure the M Scaler is a masterpiece. But the even the master himself, Rob, will not use it to listen to cds with - like many of us, his music is on his hard drive. Right now he has to suffer the embarrassment of using a third party USB to s/pdif convertor which can hardly be satisfying. Certainly not a solution that I would find acceptable.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sadly the world seems to be entering an era where facts are ignored, but opinions get repeated and shouted, until people believe them as the new 'facts'.


----------



## Crgreen

kamil21 said:


> It's also very interesting to hear the editor saying that "Most Hi-Fi News reviewers believe audio over S/PDIF sounds superior to USB."


 
 Over a broad range of DACs, I suspect this is true. The USB interface has proved tricky to implement satisfactorily for audio purposes and this was also my own experience until I got a Hugo 2 and then DAVE. Berkley clearly still believes that USB doesn't quite cut it, but as with so many things, it's about how you implement the technology. Obviously, the Mutec device has a number of possible uses. It's also probably cheaper than a custom-made solution!


----------



## Crgreen

Doh...I meant to say "Hugo" and not "Hugo 2". All these new models are confusing me!


----------



## AndrewOld

daveredref-iii said:


> Andrew
> "The current Blu surely does have analogue outputs, so my premise based on your current product, is correct."
> Do you realise you were disagreeing with the guy who produced the Blu? It is a transport with no analogue op. It was designed to connect digitally to the DAC.
> 
> ...


 

 Beg your pardon folks, I read the specs for the ONE and thought it was the Blu. 
  
 My argument still stands though. 
  
 A BLU2 offers nothing to an owner of a ONE unless he has a DAC. If he has a DAVE, a stand-alone M Scaler would most likely be a more attractive proposition than a BLU2. Less money, less trade in hassles. Less waste. If he doesn't have a DAVE, a DAVE is probably the way he should go.
  
 And the people who have  BLU must have a DAC. So a stand-alone M scaler or a DAVE would be an attractive proposition for them. Why change a decent cd transport uneccesarily?
  
 Indeed is there not a BLU owner on here that is disappointed is selling his?


----------



## halloweenman

mojo ideas said:


> Most galvanic isolation designs only works for lower sample rates like 44.1 48kHz however Robs implementation will work throughout the whole of the higher frequency sample rates too. He does this by electrically floating the USB chip. The chip then needs about 80milli Amperes or so of power to come from the hoste device. So for instance a phone would run down faster than it would normally.
> This is why we don't implement it on our mobile products and those we expect to be often connected to phones and mobile devices via USB.
> It should be realised that all mobile devices like phones really do not have any ground modulation to speak of! So it's not needed much these days as people have generally long since thrown away threir old large rickety personal computers that suffered from large amounts of ground modulation and earth loop problems modern laptops do not. Also our Dacs are highly Immuned to Jitter by virtue of Robs design so this is not a problem for us either. So we have galvanic isolation on our system Dacs snd not those we expect to be linked to phones.




Thanks John. Unfortunetely, I'm one of those people using a noisey laptop to play music into my DAC (Hugo TT). Will the Poly for Hugo 2 include a USB input that has galvanic isolation? If not is there any plan to realise a Hugo TT 2?


----------



## rkt31

imho USB input with some simple tweaks easily betters coaxial input in case of mojo and hugo. yesterday I tried oyaide neo d+ A class 1m pcocc USB cable to mojo . I added two ferrite chokes at each end of cable and added jitterbugs in the USB ports , this way mojo sounded more fluid and clearer than coaxial input. not just mojo it will work for any dac.


----------



## Kamil21

andrewold said:


> Beg your pardon folks, I read the specs for the ONE and thought it was the Blu.
> 
> My argument still stands though.
> 
> ...




I do agree that you have made a good point here. It does seem that when Chord realised that they had 1m taps on hand, they should have deferred Blu2 and simply gone ahead with a stand alone scaler. 

As with Poly and Hugo2, Chord may have some surprises not too far ahead as far as their product road map is concerned , but unless they do, I fear that they have made a logistical mistake in not introducing a stand alone scalar instead of Blu2. (The only consolation being that Blu2 can sound better with CD transport than digital inputs, but that remains to be seen).


----------



## PhiQuanTu

I think even a standalone M-scaler won't be much cheaper than the Blu 2. What a shame to spend $12,000-$13,000 on a Dave just so that a year later they release a product with ten-fold the tap count. Never been a high-end product depreciates this quick......


----------



## romaz

phiquantu said:


> I think even a standalone M-scaler won't be much cheaper than the Blu 2. What a shame to spend $12,000-$13,000 on a Dave just so that a year later they release a product with ten-fold the tap count. Never been a high-end product depreciates this quick......


 
  
 I think you are missing the big picture here.  With the M-scaler (and Rob's upcoming digital amp), it is DAVE that benefits the most.  It is with these items that DAVE's truer potential is realized and further distances itself from anything else.  If I was starting from scratch and was in the market for a new DAC, despite how good Hugo2 is, having heard how good 1M taps sounds (which is _only_ possible with the DAVE), I would be all the more inclined to buy the DAVE today.  Should Rob come out with M-scaler 2 with 15M taps (which is already possible to implement today according to Rob by using an array of FPGAs), once again, it is _only_ with DAVE and its dual DX inputs that such performance can be realized.


----------



## Jawed

romaz said:


> Should Rob come out with M-scaler 2 with 15M taps (which is already possible to implement today according to Rob by using an array of FPGAs)



Well I guess we now know what Rob's going to be doing this year...



Now playing : Domnérus et al, Jazz at the Pawnshop - How High the Moon


----------



## ecwl

I have to say another aspect of Blu 2 with DAVE vs Blu 2 with non-Chord DAC people haven't talked about is this. Chord DACs (Pulse Array DACs) are inherently jitter immune (or at least extremely insensitive) to the source. Other non-Chord DACs are not (although they're still pretty darn jitter insensitive). As a result, we see a lot of non-Chord DACs use special clocks to improve their jitter immunity. Moreover, they often have their own dedicated transports with word clock output to sync to their DAC to improve their jitter performance. I am certain Blu 2's 24/352 or 24/384 S/PDIF output already has very low jitter. However, I think Blu 2 paired with a non-Chord DAC may still underperform because those non-Chord DACs are not as jitter immune. That said, the primary advantage of that pairing would still be the 500,000 taps from the Blu 2 which I suspect would overwhelm the slight increase in jitter sensitivity of the high-end non-Chord DACs. Obviously, I think it's silly for people to think about pairing Blu 2 (or M-scaler) with a non-Chord DAC. But then I think it's silly for people to buy a non-Chord DAC so count me really biased.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

jelt2359 said:


> Good pilgrim, thou doth wrong thy wallet too much, which mannerly devotion shows in this, for saints have wallets that pilgrims hands do open, and money in hand is holy palmers' bliss.


 
  
 All that glisters is not gold; Often have you heard that told: Many a man his life hath sold But my outside to behold: Gilded tombs do worms enfold.


----------



## romaz

andrewold said:


> Blu2 is not an upgrade to Blu from the stand point of playing cds at all. If someone is using a Blu to play cds straight then a Blu2 is of absolutely no use to them as it does not have analogue outputs. If someone is using a Blu into a DAVE then a stand-alone M Scaler would be just as big an upgrade, at less cost and inconvenience. They would just connect into the M Scaler via s/pdif.
> 
> 
> So a grand or more for a converter, plus hundreds more for power supplies and cables and you still don't have an optimum solution. Just a mess. A USB input (or dare I dream a streamed input) would leave the M Scaler/DAVE in charge of the clock; with s/pdif you are still to an extent at the mercy of the clock in your convertor. To say nothing of having to disconnect it all if you want to use other sources.
> ...


 
  
 I see what you are doing here, Andrew, and I applaud it.  If your grandstanding is successful in getting John Franks to commit to a standalone M-scaler before Blu2 ships, then I would respectfully suggest that this standalone M-scaler be named the Andrew M-scaler in your honor and that you will find me 2nd in line for it (I doubt I would be fast enough beat you to the front of this line) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 In the event that such a product announcement doesn't occur before Blu2 reaches U.S. shores in the coming months, then I am committed to moving forward with Blu2 and I will have no intentions of ever selling it unless a significantly better M-scaler becomes available down the road.  I do not already own a Blu and so I don't have the problem of having to sell one although I do empathize with those in this predicament.  Perhaps Blu owners can privately approach Chord about some sort of a loyalty rebate (like a free Mojo or Poly).
  
 The way I see it, if I was Chord, I wouldn't price a standalone M-scaler much less than Blu2 or Davina and I wouldn't base the price purely on BOM but would also look at the intrinsic value of what 1M taps means, how this milestone represents decades of one person's work and how no one else is likely to achieve it and if I am deciding to relinquish my monopoly on Rob's work so that competing DACs can benefit from it, I certainly wouldn't want to just give it away.  This is my reasoning on why I don't think a standalone M-scaler would be that much cheaper although I would be happy to be proven wrong.
  
 As to the physicality of a standalone M-scaler, I would presume it would be placed in a Choral chassis just like DAVE, Blu2 and Davina and so whether this chassis also happens to house a CD-transport or analog inputs is immaterial to me.
  
 As to having to deal with a USB-to-SPDIF converter, yes, I would prefer not to have to deal with it but it is what it is.  If it becomes clear in the coming month that Davina will be released sooner rather than later, I may yet change my mind but having to contend with such a converter is not a deterrent for me.  In fact, having explored USB-to-SPDIF converters over the past couple of months has been very educational.  While the SPDIF or AES/EBU input on many DACs is superior to USB, that has not been my experience with DAVE and so this is indeed a challenge.  Having tried several already, I have found DAVE is sensitive to the quality of the converter and the PSU that powers it and so they definitely don't all sound the same.  What seems to matter most is the quality of the power supply (which is why I have ruled out the Mutec and Berkeley Alpha and their built-in PSUs) but the USB chip (usually some variant of XMOS) and the clock also matters.  This prototype I will be trying addresses all of these issues but the key ingredient that hopefully will set it apart is the clock.  This particular clock, based on reports from respected sources, is supposed to be superior with respect to phase noise and stability to TCXO, OCXO and any variant of oscillator made my Crystek or NDK.  I am told that only an atomic clock (which would cost a few thousand $) can beat it and yet it also has a master clock input should I decide to go in that direction.
  
 Could this USB-to-SPDIF converter improve upon my current USB setup with my DAVE?  I have yet to determine that but I am very open to this possibility for the very reason that with an Audiophilleo 1 customized to accept power from my LPS-1, while USB is still slightly superior, the two are very close and I know now that at the very least, I can live with this device as a last resort.  Should this prototype I am about to hear for myself actually outperform USB, then I would for sure move to it even if I didn't buy an M-scaler.


----------



## Mojo ideas

andrewold said:


> The current Blu surely does have analogue outputs, so my premise based on your current product, is correct.
> 
> I am sure the M Scaler is a masterpiece. But the even the master himself, Rob, will not use it to listen to cds with - like many of us, his music is on his hard drive. Right now he has to suffer the embarrassment of using a third party USB to s/pdif convertor which can hardly be satisfying. Certainly not a solution that I would find acceptable.
> 
> ...


 We are a small( tiny by comparison ) British company that has given you in the last three years Radically better Dacs than had every been seen especially in the mobile product sector we have given the Hugo, Mojo, Dave, the 2Qute the CPA 2800, the Hugo TT and the TToby we've newly styled Amplifiers overall winning more than seventy awards and now just launched three more! These are ultra advanced break through products only presented just 2weeks ago and your bleating that we haven't yet given you enough information yet the press releases are pretty detailed they went out to hundreds and we've said there's more information is coming.... please give us a break we don't have the resources of the giants we are competing against. Please consider just how much detailed company knollege has been honestly divulged we have given you all far more information about our designs than any other company and your clamouring for more on units that is not yet into production. Have some patience we will not hold back you'll have it all soon enough!


----------



## lovethatsound

mojo ideas said:


> We are a small( tiny by comparison ) British company that has given you in the last three years Radically better Dacs than had every been seen especially in the mobile product sector we have given the Hugo, Mojo, Dave, the 2Qute the CPA 2800, the Hugo TT and the TToby we've newly styled Amplifiers overall winning more than seventy awards and now just launched three more! These are ultra advanced break through products only presented just 2weeks ago and your bleating that we haven't yet given you enough information yet the press releases are pretty detailed they went out to hundreds and we've said there's more information is coming.... please give us a break we don't have the resources of the giants we are competing against. Please consider just how much detailed company knollege has been honestly divulged we have given you all far more information about our designs than any other company and your clamouring for more on units that is not yet into production. Have some patience we will not hold back you'll have it all soon enough!


All what you say hear is true John,and i like many others,love your products,especially your dacs.I have ask on here quite a few time's about being able to upgrade the original blu to the blu 2 spec,and might add even on this thread it was implied that this would be the case,so please help me out,and let the original blu owners know if this is going to happen or if theirs going to be some sort of way to trade in the original blu for the blu 2,thanks for your time.☺


----------



## Peter Hyatt

mojo ideas said:


> We are a small( tiny by comparison ) British company that has given you in the last three years Radically better Dacs than had every been seen especially in the mobile product sector we have given the Hugo, Mojo, Dave, the 2Qute the CPA 2800, the Hugo TT and the TToby we've newly styled Amplifiers overall winning more than seventy awards and now just launched three more! These are ultra advanced break through products only presented just 2weeks ago and your bleating that we haven't yet given you enough information yet the press releases are pretty detailed they went out to hundreds and we've said there's more information is coming.... please give us a break we don't have the resources of the giants we are competing against. Please consider just how much detailed company knollege has been honestly divulged we have given you all far more information about our designs than any other company and your clamouring for more on units that is not yet into production. Have some patience we will not hold back you'll have it all soon enough!


 

 How you have competed against the endless money supply of Sony and others is a testament to your focused work!


----------



## Mojo ideas

lovethatsound said:


> All what you say hear is true John,and i like many others,love your products,especially your dacs.I have ask on here quite a few time's about being able to upgrade the original blu to the blu 2 spec,and might add even on this thread it was implied that this would be the case,so please help me out,and let the original blu owners know if this is going to happen or if theirs going to be some sort of way to trade in the original blu for the blu 2,thanks for your time.☺


 I do understand your wishes however I'm going to explain why we don't plan to offer upgrade for the Blu. The problem is that the only two parts that can be salvaged and used are the lower metal chassis piece and the CD mechanism and the display PCB though this may need some seperate work also. With any major refurbishment of a CD player we would usually replace various parts like the laser within the mech to try to ensure several years more use. Bearing in mind that that little of the electronics can be used and possibly a new top plate would not be matching the lower case We feel it's not really practical to offer this upgrade. We will not make hybrid units a mix of old and new as these just confuse potential customers. This is why we feel it's best to sell on an older Blu that without disturbance can go on to give sterling service to a new customer hopefully for many more years.


----------



## lovethatsound

mojo ideas said:


> I do understand your wishes however I'm going to explain why we don't plan to offer upgrade for the Blu. The problem is that the only two parts that can be salvaged and used are the lower metal chassis piece and the CD mechanism and the display PCB though this may need some seperate work also. With any major refurbishment of a CD player we would usually replace various parts like the laser within the mech to try to ensure several years more use. Bearing in mind that that little of the electronics can be used and possibly a new top plate would not be matching the lower case We feel it's not really practical to offer this upgrade. We will not make hybrid units a mix of old and new as these just confuse potential customers. This is why we feel it's best to sell on an older Blu that without disturbance can go on to give sterling service to a new customer hopefully for many more years.


I'm not going to pretend I'm not disappointed,but thank you for letting us know. ☺


----------



## Crgreen

According to TAS, the five most significant introductions of digital products at CES under 15k:

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/robert-harley-on-digital-and-electronics-under-15k/

As far as I can see, no mention of any Chord products.


----------



## miketlse

crgreen said:


> According to TAS, the five most significant introductions of digital products at CES under 15k:
> 
> http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/robert-harley-on-digital-and-electronics-under-15k/
> 
> As far as I can see, no mention of any Chord products.


 
 I get the impression MQA compatability was a key criterion.
 MQA is the flavour of the month, just like 3D TVs were a few years ago, until manufacturers realised that few people were interested in 3D.
 Time will tell with MQA.


----------



## Mojo ideas

crgreen said:


> According to TAS, the five most significant introductions of digital products at CES under 15k:
> 
> You can't win them all,our distributor in the U S has an interesting history with many U S magazines
> 
> ...


----------



## Crgreen

Right, got you.


----------



## Crgreen

miketlse said:


> I get the impression MQA compatability was a key criterion.
> MQA is the flavour of the month, just like 3D TVs were a few years ago, until manufacturers realised that few people were interested in 3D.
> Time will tell with MQA.




A pity you can't have more than one flavour of the month. So much for balanced coverage.


----------



## Mojo ideas

peter hyatt said:


> How you have competed against the endless money supply of Sony and others is a testament to your focused work!


 And the obsession and never ending quest for Audio perfection of our house genius Rob Watts


----------



## EVOLVIST

kamil21 said:


> I do agree that you have made a good point here. It does seem that when Chord realised that they had 1m taps on hand, they should have deferred Blu2 and simply gone ahead with a stand alone scaler.
> 
> As with Poly and Hugo2, Chord may have some surprises not too far ahead as far as their product road map is concerned , but unless they do, I fear that they have made a logistical mistake in not introducing a stand alone scalar instead of Blu2. (The only consolation being that Blu2 can sound better with CD transport than digital inputs, but that remains to be seen).




Yeah, that's sort of my mindset, as well. However, what is going on with Chord right now, cannot be changed. It just is what it is. I won't disparage Chord as a company. They have a buck to make and we have a buck to spend if we want to. 

My whole thinking is, though, pretend that if Chord never had announced a Blu2. Instead Chord announces a standalone M-Scaler, with all of these inputs and outputs (BNC,USB,RCA,Optical,etc), and they price it at $9,500 USD, I don't think anybody bats an eye. All are thrilled and we go get our checkbooks. This means that original Red and Blu owners can hook up to it, as an upgrade, as we'll as DAVE owners who could care less about Cee-Dees, and I'm sure, quite a lot of other DAC owners who would love the benefit. 

It would seem to me that now there would be a lot more units sold at that hefty price, for more profit, because you've now tapped into all of your Chord owner's products, in addition to everybody else who owns a DAC and can afford it. 

I can say without much reservation that such a unit would sell more than the blu2 and the Davina combined.

I mean, why such a niche item in a world where CD players are leaving the planet. I applaud Mr. Frank's plea to hang on to physical media. I have never read a digital book, but how much weight does nostalgia have in the high-end market from a company that really pushes for the future? 

That's the only thing that leaves me scratching my head


----------



## Sonic77

evolvist said:


> Yeah, that's sort of my mindset, as well. However, what is going on with Chord right now, cannot be changed. It just is what it is. I won't disparage Chord as a company. They have a buck to make and we have a buck to spend if we want to.
> 
> My whole thinking is, though, pretend that if Chord never had announced a Blu2. Instead Chord announces a standalone M-Scaler, with all of these inputs and outputs (BNC,USB,RCA,Optical,etc), and they price it at $9,500 USD, I don't think anybody bats an eye. All are thrilled and we go get our checkbooks. This means that original Red and Blu owners can hook up to it, as an upgrade, as we'll as DAVE owners who could care less about Cee-Dees, and I'm sure, quite a lot of other DAC owners who would love the benefit.
> 
> ...


 

 ​I think this cd player was not totally meant for us,  I think it was aimed at the Asian market, that's why it doesn't make sense to you, it wasn't necessary meant for us file users. I may buy it and some others but it will probably sell  a lot more in China, Japan ect.


----------



## ToroFiestaSol

I think some of you guys fail to see the big picture
  
 High end Audio (+10k usd individual components) is less than the 1% of the global audio sales.
  
 Of that one porcent, like 99% are above 35 years old.
  
 Believe me, the majority of those guys have have vinyls, and if they have digital is CD.
 Very few people in HIGH END AUDIO have computers for their system
 Oh, and almost all of them live in Asia.
  
 Probably not a good product for head-fi, but a much wiser choice than the streamer or the M-scaler for the rest of their customers.


----------



## Kamil21

mojo ideas said:


> Have some patience we will not hold back you'll have it all soon enough!




All of us desperately addicted and loyal Chord users will await this with bated breath!


----------



## drbobbybones

ubs28 said:


> The screen of the Chord Dave sometimes goes off and on quickly. Is there something wrong with my unit?




Are you using Display Mode 4? It shuts itself off after a period of inactivity. Change the mode and see if it is still happening. My personal favorite is mode 3


----------



## Christer

phiquantu said:


> I think even a standalone M-scaler won't be much cheaper than the Blu 2. What a shame to spend $12,000-$13,000 on a Dave just so that a year later they release a product with ten-fold the tap count. Never been a high-end product depreciates this quick......


 

 If what Romaz said of HUGO 2 holds reasonaby true for me too, I am VERY HAPPY INDEED that  I did NOT spend that  ridiculous money on DAVE although I was tempted to.
 As far as BLU 2 is concerned I am pretty sure they made it because that's where they think they can make the most money in the short term. The Asian market in general and  the Chinese in particular is strangely enough still very much stuck with obsolete rbcd.
 One reason could be that very few of the super rich so called audiophiles there listen to western classical music one of the few genres where you can actually hear an advantage of  HI RES  over rbcd.
 Many audiophiles buy HI FI equipment the same way some people buy cars because they can spend a lot and  to impress others.
 At some highend demos I have had a hard time not laughing out loud at the low res  electronica crap they play via megabuck systems that would buy not only a very good car indeed but a brand new very big house as well.
 I am sure what people are asking for here will come as well later. But at a price ! And not before Chord has tapped the Asian market long enough to make a good profit first.


----------



## analogmusic

lovethatsound said:


> I'm not going to pretend I'm not disappointed,but thank you for letting us know. ☺


 

 The FPGA in Blu 2 is a different league to the one used in Blu 1.  Million taps vs 4000 taps.


----------



## Mojo ideas

drbobbybones said:


> Are you using Display Mode 4? It shuts itself off after a period of inactivity. Change the mode and see if it is still happening. My personal favorite is mode 3


 no your unit is fine. In order to clear Dave's inside spaces of any exterainrous noise sources Rob W decided that because of the vast scale of the FPGA chip that he could use the Chip to directly drive the display with out the need for an additional active processor chip running that potentially may cause noise. So it's all done with the Xilinx Chip and the flash is when it's refreshing it's self. Rob was proved right and Dave's noise performance is second to none!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Far from being obsolete, rbcd is the source of more than 90% of all hard disc music collections, provides the cheapest way by far to amass such a hard disc data base and also provides a bullet proof backup. Even if I were to change to hard disc any time in the future I would be ripping rbcd. After all why would anyone wish to pay download prices over CD prices for 44.1 recording. The rbcd comes with a real world pamphlet to read also. The download services would love to see the demise of rbcd. Long live rbcd I say, whether for ripping or playing.


----------



## oscarnr

I love CDs too. I have thousands. I rip them all and play them from my computer, but I like a lot to have, see, read and touch the covers and booklets. I'm really old school with that.Moreover, you have a physical backup. I would preorder the Blu 2 if it has an USB input, I don't want to deal with extra cables and another converter in between my mac/server and the Blu2. Chord, please consider include that USB input. It doesn't seem too complicated.


----------



## bmichels

oscarnr said:


> I love CDs too..... I like a lot to have, see, read and touch the covers and booklets. ....I don't want to deal with extra cables and another converter in between my mac/server and the Blu2. Chord, *please consider include that USB input*. ....


 
  
 Agree 100% on all what is said above...


----------



## 7ryder

oscarnr said:


> I love CDs too. I have thousands. I rip them all and play them from my computer, but I like a lot to have, see, read and touch the covers and booklets. I'm really old school with that.Moreover, you have a physical backup. I would preorder the Blu 2 if it has an USB input, I don't want to deal with extra cables and another converter in between my mac/server and the Blu2. Chord, please consider include that USB input. It doesn't seem too complicated.


 
  
 It's interesting that Robb says that the USB input is the best input on DAVE, yet Chord goes with BNC S/PDIF digital input on Blu2. Wonder why?


----------



## Egoquaero

Hi guys, I'm wondering... with a pair of Sennheiser HD800 what would be the sonic difference between Dave and Mojo?
 Is the Mojo able to dig out an 85% of sound quality in comparison with what Dave would be able to do? Or is it more like a 90%, 95% or 98%?
 I'm just trying to understand what I would miss in terms of sonic quality by getting a Mojo.


----------



## Kamil21

egoquaero said:


> Hi guys, I'm wondering... with a pair of Sennheiser HD800 what would be the sonic difference between Dave and Mojo?
> Is the Mojo able to dig out an 85% of sound quality in comparison with what Dave would be able to do? Or is it more like a 90%, 95% or 98%?
> I'm just trying to understand what I would miss in terms of sonic quality by getting a Mojo.




I own both, but use a Sony MDR-Z1R headphone instead. There is just no comparison. It's hard to talk about sound %. Just that for me, after listening to Dave, you would not want to settle for Mojo at any price. I guess that must mean.. err Mojo is less than 50% of Dave. 

However, if price or portability is an issue, why not have a look at Hugo2? .. read what Romaz has to say about it in previous threads.


----------



## AndrewOld

mojo ideas said:


> I do understand your wishes however I'm going to explain why we don't plan to offer upgrade for the Blu. The problem is that the only two parts that can be salvaged and used are the lower metal chassis piece and the CD mechanism and the display PCB though this may need some seperate work also. With any major refurbishment of a CD player we would usually replace various parts like the laser within the mech to try to ensure several years more use. Bearing in mind that that little of the electronics can be used and possibly a new top plate would not be matching the lower case We feel it's not really practical to offer this upgrade. We will not make hybrid units a mix of old and new as these just confuse potential customers. This is why we feel it's best to sell on an older Blu that without disturbance can go on to give sterling service to a new customer hopefully for many more years.


 

 Dare I point out that if there was a stand-alone M-Scaler you would be able to delight this long standing customer who wants to upgrade his Blu, rather than disappoint him by making his only option Blu2. The original Blu is, I would assume, well engineered, so there's just nothing wrong with it. Why make someone change the whole thing, when all would need to do is add a stand-alone M Scaler?


----------



## miketlse

daveredref-iii said:


> Far from being obsolete, rbcd is the source of more than 90% of all hard disc music collections, provides the cheapest way by far to amass such a hard disc data base and also provides a bullet proof backup. Even if I were to change to hard disc any time in the future I would be ripping rbcd. After all why would anyone wish to pay download prices over CD prices for 44.1 recording. The rbcd comes with a real world pamphlet to read also. The download services would love to see the demise of rbcd. Long live rbcd I say, whether for ripping or playing.


 
  
 Exactly.
 Unfortunately it does feel like some other posters, interpret the fact that CD sales are in decline, to mean that the billions of CDs that have already been sold, have also ceased to exist and can never need playing.


----------



## romaz

daveredref-iii said:


> Far from being obsolete, rbcd is the source of more than 90% of all hard disc music collections, provides the cheapest way by far to amass such a hard disc data base and also provides a bullet proof backup. Even if I were to change to hard disc any time in the future I would be ripping rbcd. After all why would anyone wish to pay download prices over CD prices for 44.1 recording. The rbcd comes with a real world pamphlet to read also. The download services would love to see the demise of rbcd. Long live rbcd I say, whether for ripping or playing.


 
 I fully agree with this.  While some of my best music is DXD or 24/192, DAVE does such a wonderful job with Redbook (M-scaler will do even better) that at no time while listening to Redbook am I wanting for more.  For sure, there is a convenience and cost savings with buying CDs and ripping them as opposed to downloads.  For one, there are many more options through CD.
  
 Regarding DSD, I have few native DSD recordings.  Most of the DSD I own were not recorded DSD and as I've compared these DSD tracks to their PCM equivalent on DAVE, I find PCM to sound better.  For example, I own Jazz at the Pawnshop in DSD128 and as I've done careful comparisons against the 16/44 stream from Tidal, the 16/44 stream sounds better on DAVE.  One thing for sure, if the recording wasn't made with a DSD recorder, I won't ever be seeking out DSD.
  
 Here's another interesting finding.  Because some USB-to-SPDIF converters I have been trying don't do DSD at all, I have been forcing Roon to transcode my DSD files to PCM and I actually find that Roon does a splendid job of transcoding and that this sounds better on my DAVE!  Moreover, when I play back DSD256, I am prone to intermittent annoying stuttering.  When you have Roon transcode DSD256 to PCM 705/768kHz, all stuttering ceases.  It will require more listening time but I may switch to this method of DSD playback permanently which brings the added convenience of not having to toggle from PCM Plus to DSD on DAVE.  
  
 Regarding USB input on M-scaler, I have to agree that this is my biggest personal disappointment with Blu 2.  I have fully embraced owning a CD transport that I may only use sparingly and am happy to pay Chord's asking price for it but not having USB has been a tough pill to swallow even if my USB-to-SPDIF experiments work out.


----------



## iDesign

andrewold said:


> Why make someone change the whole thing, when all would need to do is add a stand-alone M Scaler?




This is something I have said previously. I tend to not purchase products from companies that follow the iPhone 6, 6S, 7 etc. pattern of product releases. In high end audio I believe it is best for coampines to move towards selling devices that can be upgraded over time. This way, companies will retain their customers for a longer time period and the upgrades themselves will become a significant revenue stream since they are more affordable for the consumer. High end audio companies won't survive if they follow the iPhone 6, 6S, 7 path because too many new digital technologies being released each year that consumers want (MQA, Roon endpoints etc). I respect Chord, and hope they will become one of the few companies that will think of their DACs as a platform that someone makes an one time investment into and then upgrades each year with software and modules. Chord seems to be heading the way of modular upgrades with devices like the Poly.

As far as Blu 2 versus a stand alone M Scaler, I am somewhat of an outlier here because I have a massive collection of CDs and the Blu 2 fits the bill.


----------



## oscarnr

romaz said:


> Regarding USB input on M-scaler, I have to agree that this is my biggest personal disappointment with Blu 2.  I have fully embraced owning a CD transport that I may only use sparingly and am happy to pay Chord's asking price for it but not having USB has been a tough pill to swallow even if my USB-to-SPDIF experiments work out.



+1
For me to have a CD transport is a good add-on, as I said previously I've got a lot of CDs to play. But my listening habits are 90% speakers, 10% headphones, and I need to use DSP (Amarra IRC/ Dirac) in my listening room (with excellent results BTW) , so I woud use the CD only occasionally, and a mac/computer is my usual source for playing music (as a lot of people here I think). In this context it is really disappointing that the Blu2 will only have a SPDIF input given the universal expansion of USB in audio. I don't understand why, if only one input to the Blu2 have been considered, it is not an USB. Weird


----------



## maxh22

idesign said:


> This is something I have said previously. I tend to not purchase products from companies that follow the iPhone 6, 6S, 7 etc. pattern of product releases. In high end audio I believe it is best for coampines to move towards selling devices that can be upgraded over time. This way, companies will retain their customers for a longer time period and the upgrades themselves will become a significant revenue stream since they are more affordable for the consumer. High end audio companies won't survive if they follow the iPhone 6, 6S, 7 path because too many new digital technologies being released each year that consumers want (MQA, Roon endpoints etc). I respect Chord, and hope they will become one of the few companies that will think of their DACs as a platform that someone makes an one time investment into and then upgrades each year with software and modules. Chord seems to be heading the way of modular upgrades with devices like the Poly.


 
  
 When I read what you wrote I instantly thought of Schiit. They offer upgrades from their Bifrost line to the Yggdrasil.
  
 Upgrades are less expensive than a whole new box and stuff doesn't get thrown out.
  
 However, there is a problem....
  
 You are stuck with the same plain looking aluminum box. You essentially have to use the same design and work around the limitations of that design in order to please your customers.
  
 This means that the aesthetic and layout of the product would have to be the same. Look at what they did with the Hugo. They completely redesigned it.
  
 They Improved its aesthetic, sound quality, and functionality. It's a fresh new design that people will get excited about.


----------



## Sonic77

Well if they start production of Blu MkII in February, is it too late to add a usb connection? That would please the Asian cd market and the rest of the world market who prefer the file route of playback.


----------



## iDesign

maxh22 said:


> However, there is a problem...


 
  
 Staying with an elegant, well designed enclosure is OK. Can you image the disappointment if Chord where to release a Mojo 2 that did not work with Poly? These are all the reasons Chord needs to focus on developing platforms that can be upgraded via modules and software updates.


----------



## maxh22

idesign said:


> Staying with an elegant, well designed enclosure is OK. Can you image the disappointment if Chord where to release a Mojo 2 that did not work with Poly? These are all the reasons *Chord needs to focus on developing platforms that can be upgraded via modules and software updates.  *


 
  
 If they could do that while also allocating room for future flexability that would be great.


----------



## miketlse

sonic77 said:


> Well if they start production of Blu MkII in February, is it too late to add a usb connection? That would please the Asian cd market and the rest of the world market who prefer the file route of playback.


 
 Have you seriously thought through the implications for the production schedule, of adding a usb connection at this late stage?
  

the circuit board design would have to be updated, all the circuit boards already manufactured would have to be thrown away, and there would be a delay until the new circuit boards were designed/manufactured/tested, and then arrived at chord
all the existing cases would have to be scrapped, the case design updated, the cnc machining code updated, and production of the first batch of blu 2 delayed
all the product testing performed on the current design of blu 2, would have to be repeated, until Rob Watts was happy with the results
  
 Overall it would be impossible to start production in Feb, and i suspect that April would be a bit optimistic.


----------



## Sonic77

miketlse said:


> Have you seriously thought through the implications for the production schedule, of adding a usb connection at this late stage?
> 
> 
> the circuit board design would have to be updated, all the circuit boards already manufactured would have to be thrown away, and there would be a delay until the new circuit boards were designed/manufactured/tested, and then arrived at chord
> ...


 

 Sounds good, Do it!


----------



## miketlse

sonic77 said:


> Sounds good, Do it!


 
 Now you have slipped into Star Trek Commander speak 'make it so'


----------



## romaz

oscarnr said:


> +1
> For me to have a CD transport is a good add-on, as I said previously I've got a lot of CDs to play. But my listening habits are 90% speakers, 10% headphones, and I need to use DSP (Amarra IRC/ Dirac) in my listening room (with excellent results BTW) , so I woud use the CD only occasionally, and a mac/computer is my usual source for playing music (as a lot of people here I think). In this context it is really disappointing that the Blu2 will only have a SPDIF input given the universal expansion of USB in audio. I don't understand why, if only one input to the Blu2 have been considered, it is not an USB. Weird


 

 If I were to guess at the reason SPDIF/BNC was selected over a USB input, it's because Chord wanted to utilize the original Blu's chassis without having to modify it.  Obviously, there is a cost savings to be able to do this.  If you look at Blu's chassis, it has 2 balanced XLR outputs, 4 BNC (2 are DX, one is SPDIF output and the other is a word clock input) and 1 Toslink but no USB.  Well, with Blu Mk2, Chord chose to replace the word clock input with a SPDIF input which I am very thankful for because to have any digital input is better than none.  To incorporate USB would probably mean a reworking of the chassis but perhaps one of the XLR outputs could be replaced with USB?  Rob had suggested that incorporating USB into the PCB would amount to only a few days work.


----------



## oscarnr

romaz said:


> If I were to guess at the reason SPDIF/BNC was selected over a USB input, it's because Chord wanted to utilize the original Blu's chassis without having to modify it.  Obviously, there is a cost savings to be able to do this.  If you look at Blu's chassis, it has 2 balanced XLR outputs, 4 BNC (2 are DX, one is SPDIF output and the other is a word clock input) and 1 Toslink but no USB.  Well, with Blu Mk2, Chord chose to replace the word clock input with a SPDIF input which I am very thankful for because to have any digital input is better than none.  To incorporate USB would probably mean a reworking of the chassis but perhaps one of the XLR outputs could be replaced with USB?  Rob had suggested that incorporating USB into the PCB would amount to only a few days work.




That could be the reason. But if "Rob had suggested that incorporating USB into the PCB would amount to only a few days work" then we must claim for it


----------



## Sonic77

miketlse said:


> Now you have slipped into Star Trek Commander speak 'make it so'


----------



## Crgreen

But if a USB input were included on the Blu2, where would that leave Davina? Purely from a sales perspective, it makes more sense for Chord to leave things as they are.


----------



## bmichels

It is very strange that Rob, who usually is so open with us, stay now so quiet on this lack of USB input on the Blu2 !?


----------



## AndrewOld

The Blu 2 is an ill-conceived product. 

A sensibly less expensive stand-alone M Scaler with a USB input would be better fit to every single use case. If you have a BLU, a stand alone M Scaler would be a smarter, cheaper upgrade which would avoid junking a perfectly decent transport with years of life left. If you have a DAVE a stand alone M Scaler would be a no-brainer upgrade, whether your source is a laptop, a streamer or a CD transport such as a ONE, If you have non Chord transports or DACs you could just slot a stand alone M Scaler in and reap the benefits of this apparently huge step change in digital replay, 

Nobody wtih a DAVE who uses a PC or laptop wants to pay for a CD transport they have no need for, let alone a product with but one input that is useless unless they add an expensive converter which can never be optimum. 

So come on Chord, do the sums, run the bills of materials, listen to your customers! (And we don't want an ADC either!)


----------



## miketlse

andrewold said:


> The Blu 2 is an ill-conceived product.
> 
> A sensibly less expensive stand-alone M Scaler with a USB input would be better fit to every single use case. If you have a BLU, a stand alone M Scaler would be a smarter, cheaper upgrade which would avoid junking a perfectly decent transport with years of life left. If you have a DAVE a stand alone M Scaler would be a no-brainer upgrade, whether your source is a laptop, a streamer or a CD transport such as a ONE, If you have non Chord transports or DACs you could just slot a stand alone M Scaler in and reap the benefits of this apparently huge step change in digital replay,
> 
> ...


 
 I think that you have now reached the point where you are claiming that your views are shared by every prospective chord customer.
  
 I have no need to buy the Blu 2, but please stop trying to give the impression that you speak for me.


----------



## Crgreen

bmichels said:


> It is very strange that Rob, who usually is so open with us, stay now so quiet on this lack of USB input on the Blu2 !?




I think his position is such that it would probably be impolitic for him to comment on it, one way or another.


----------



## EVOLVIST

@AndrewOld, surely you must have read by now that the Davina is also a DDC with USB, so you can throw out the ADC argument. 

Oh, I get what you're saying. I want an Oompa Loompa now! I'm cool with that. In fact, I would plop down the coin right now if the Blu2 had USB, but I don't want to go through what Roy is doing, because I know the Davina would fit the bill. 

My argument, though (before someone schooled me on the Asian market), was that if Chord had come out with a standalone M-Scaler with all of the inputs and outputs, and slapped a $9,000 sticker on it, having never mentioned the Blu2, would you have kicked against Chord then, or placed an order for the standalone M-Scaler at the abovementioned price? 

I would have bought the M-Scaler, no questions asked. But now I wait to see how the Davina shakes out.


----------



## adyc

romaz said:


> Regarding USB input on M-scaler, I have to agree that this is my biggest personal disappointment with Blu 2.  I have fully embraced owning a CD transport that I may only use sparingly and am happy to pay Chord's asking price for it but not having USB has been a tough pill to swallow even if my USB-to-SPDIF experiments work out.




I am with you on this. Bring USB input to Blu2 and I will buy straight away.


----------



## adyc

sonic77 said:


> Well if they start production of Blu MkII in February, is it too late to add a usb connection? That would please the Asian cd market and the rest of the world market who prefer the file route of playback.




I am not so sure about CD player demands in China. But I can assure you that the rest of Asia have abandoned CD players long time ago.


----------



## oscarnr

adyc said:


> I am with you on this. Bring USB input to Blu2 and I will buy straight away.




Me too


----------



## Sonic77

We are asking a lot maybe, but if the usb add on cant be done for whatever reason, how about a compromise? Maybe Chord could make a low price usb to spdif bnc connector to go along with the Blu MkII? That way we will know for sure it is compatible and can pass a signal unmolested? Just an idea.


----------



## Peter Hyatt

kamil21 said:


> egoquaero said:
> 
> 
> > Hi guys, I'm wondering... with a pair of Sennheiser HD800 what would be the sonic difference between Dave and Mojo?
> ...





This makes so much sense! Until I can purchase Dave I'm gonna get Hugo 2.


----------



## GryphonGuy

adyc said:


> I am not so sure about CD player demands in China. But I can assure you that the rest of Asia have abandoned CD players long time ago.


 

 ​Well I am in Malaysia and in my local shopping mall we have 3 CD shops. 1 at a hi-fi shop that obviously goes for audiophile flavours, one at a stationery shop as a sideline and a dedicated music shop that sells all sorts of CD's DVDs LPs etc. Several thousand square feet of floor space dedicated to selling physical media for music. Roughly guessing I'd say that 80% of that space is for Chinese music CD's 10% for western CD's and 10% for DVDs LPs etc.
  
 So Malaysia is in Asia and the market for CD music sales is enough to support 3 shops in just one shopping mall. So I beg to differ that the rest of Asia has abandoned CD's (and hence players). This Malaysian market puts weight behind the reason why Chord has stated that there is a market for its latest Blu2 product outside the likes of the USA market (even though USA is a big market but not the world's only significant market).
  
 Cheers
 GG


----------



## jelt2359

gryphonguy said:


> ​Well I am in Malaysia and in my local shopping mall we have 3 CD shops. 1 at a hi-fi shop that obviously goes for audiophile flavours, one at a stationery shop as a sideline and a dedicated music shop that sells all sorts of CD's DVDs LPs etc. Several thousand square feet of floor space dedicated to selling physical media for music. Roughly guessing I'd say that 80% of that space is for Chinese music CD's 10% for western CD's and 10% for DVDs LPs etc.
> 
> So Malaysia is in Asia and the market for CD music sales is enough to support 3 shops in just one shopping mall. So I beg to differ that the rest of Asia has abandoned CD's (and hence players). This Malaysian market puts weight behind the reason why Chord has stated that there is a market for its latest Blu2 product outside the likes of the USA market (even though USA is a big market but not the world's only significant market).
> 
> ...




I know a Malaysian dealer and he tells me the situation there is the same as the rest of the world. A few use CDs, but the majority use media servers. Ymmv!


----------



## esimms86

romaz said:


> Here's another interesting finding.  Because some USB-to-SPDIF converters I have been trying don't do DSD at all, I have been forcing Roon to transcode my DSD files to PCM and I actually find that Roon does a splendid job of transcoding and that this sounds better on my DAVE!  Moreover, when I play back DSD256, I am prone to intermittent annoying stuttering.  When you have Roon transcode DSD256 to PCM 705/768kHz, all stuttering ceases.  It will require more listening time but I may switch to this method of DSD playback permanently which brings the added convenience of not having to toggle from PCM Plus to DSD on DAVE.
> 
> Regarding USB input on M-scaler, I have to agree that this is my biggest personal disappointment with Blu 2.  I have fully embraced owning a CD transport that I may only use sparingly and am happy to pay Chord's asking price for it but not having USB has been a tough pill to swallow even if my USB-to-SPDIF experiments work out.




So Roy, I'd be interested to know what's wrong with the Singxer usb-to-spdif converter. It does BNC/coax and it accepts PCM 384 and DSD256(although the M scalar only accepts DSD64 and 128). At 399 USD it looks like it just might be the cheapest and best option to pair with the Blu2. And one could always upgrade it with the PS of your choice if you so desire and after your wallet recovers.

The Blu2 is shaking out to be the product of choice for those 
1)who've had a chance to hear it with Dave and, therefore, want one now
2)who have the funds to pay for one now and aren't worried about resale value or being early adopters 
3)who are uncomfortable with the uncertainty as to when Davina will finally be available for purchase 
4)who are okay with having a superfluous CD transport 
5)who want to have CD transport6) who can live with the idea and the expense of a usb-to-spdif converter +/- an additional PS

Davina, on the other hand, is for those
1)who are patient enough to wait for a product that has a USB port
2)who, on principle, see no way that they're ever going to spend money on a USB-to-spdif converter
3)who, on principle, see no way that they're ever going to spend money on a CD transport 
4)who don't have the funds (at least at this time or for several months going forward) to spring for Blu2 but are already actively saving up for an M scalar
5) who want an ADC and DDC
6) who agree with the notion that conversion of usb to spdif is most effectively done within a single all in one Chord designed device

A standalone M scalar I'd for those
1)who have faith that such a product will eventually see the light of day
2)who have faith that such a product will be less expensive than Blu2 and Davina
3)who see no way that they'll ever be able to afford Blu2 or Davina at £7,995
4)who refuse to pay for a CD transport, ADC/DDC, or a USB-to-spdif converter
5)I refer you to #6 above

All 3 of the above listed products BTW are perfectly suitable for people without Dave who will still benefit from adding 500,000 taps to their own DAC(be it a Hugo2, Schiit Yggy or almost any other DAC)


----------



## esimms86

jelt2359 said:


> I know a Malaysian dealer and he tells me the situation there is the same as the rest of the world. A few use CDs, but the majority use media servers. Ymmv!




Agreed. I have two words for you: (1)iTunes (2)Sonos


----------



## GryphonGuy

For the last couple of days I have removed HQPlayer from my scope of music production because I detected that the noise shaping profiles of NS5 and NS9 were destroying guitar string decay on upsampled Jesse Cook CD’s. lowering the noise shaping to NS4 seemed to fix the decaying strings effect but introduced a muddiness that was unacceptable. So my music was being produced by Roon only through USB into the DAVE using the Chord ASIO driver.
  
 After reading about BNC connections on DAVE and Blu2 etc, last night I decided to dust off (literally) my Mark Levinson CD transport just to see how things were going now that DAVE has settled into my stereo (run-in, burned-in or whatever the latest terms are).
  
 I retrieved from its storage bin, Adele’s “25” CD that I had purchased here in Malaysia and already ripped. I plugged in the AES/EBU cable (transparent reference cable) because it is considered historically to be the better interface in my system and then played the tracks. There was a difference between the USB input from my laptop running Roon and Chord ASIO driver but not significant until track 3. The AES/EBU connection had those drum beats on that track but were slightly less defined and not in exactly the same place as the USB presentation and the backing vocals disappeared into the music and were obscured by it (on both AES and USB). So I went to my box of cables and pulled out an older timing coaxial cable with BNC connectors. Then I played the CD through DAVE on the BNC 4 input. Well blow me down with a feather. The presentation was way better than AES/EBU and way better than the Roon/Chord ASIO over USB. I thought that this was impossible. But what was happening in the music was that those drum beats over BNC COAX were very precisely laid out in the soundstage and later on in the track those backing vocals were quite distinct and never disappeared into the music. So I thought what HQPlayer would do if not used to upsample. So I started HQPlayer and set the dithering to none and noise shaping to none. VOILA!, not only were the drums in track 3 now in very precise places in the soundstage exactly the same as the BNC COAX, but via Roon/HQPlayer/USB the backing vocals on track 3 seemed to be a little more elevated and much further back from the music and seemed to stand out more than the BNC/COAX connection.
  
 So it seems that on some tracks HQPlayer is the killer software and on others it detracts from subtleties like decaying guitar string sounds.
  
 If only there were a one-stop solution to playing music through DAVE.
  
 Cheers
 GG


----------



## 7ryder

sonic77 said:


> We are asking a lot maybe, but if the usb add on cant be done for whatever reason, how about a compromise? Maybe Chord could make a low price usb to spdif bnc connector to go along with the Blu MkII? That way we will know for sure it is compatible and can pass a signal unmolested? Just an idea.


 
 Well, it did cross my mind that Chord's decision to not include USB on Blu2 was driven by the fact that they wanted to build a converter, put it in a CNC machined aluminum case and charge accordingly, but I'm trying not to be cynical about this. 
  
 Frankly, converters from Berkeley, Mutec and others will do nicely if you need to go that route.


----------



## Kamil21

grandfathertime said:


> This makes so much sense! Until I can purchase Dave I'm gonna get Hugo 2.




Yup, in case you missed his post:




romaz said:


> Yes, it is a portable DAVE and one I could happily live with if something happened to my DAVE.  If the Mojo/Poly combo wasn't so darn convenient, I would feel compelled to sell my Mojo and get the Hugo 2.  DAVE is clearly better with not just more TAPS but also a better output stage and power supply but unless you compared the two directly, you wouldn't think you were missing out on anything.  It has 4 filter options (DAVE with HF filter, DAVE without HF filter, Mojo with HF filter and Mojo without HF filter) to give you different flavors.  I think DAVE will now be for those who want the best of the best and are looking to take full advantage of the M-scaler and possibly the digital amps.


----------



## iDesign

romaz said:


> Yes, it is a portable DAVE and one I could happily live with if something happened to my DAVE.  If the Mojo/Poly combo wasn't so darn convenient, I would feel compelled to sell my Mojo and get the Hugo 2.  DAVE is clearly better with not just more TAPS but also a better output stage and power supply but unless you compared the two directly, you wouldn't think you were missing out on anything.  It has 4 filter options (DAVE with HF filter, DAVE without HF filter, Mojo with HF filter and Mojo without HF filter) to give you different flavors.  I think DAVE will now be for those who want the best of the best and are looking to take full advantage of the M-scaler and possibly the digital amps.


 
 

It seems Chord is using "Mojo" and "Hugo" rather than DAVE to describe the four filters in Hugo 2. I'm sure that was a conscious marketing decision. This is taken from Chord's Hugo 2 product page: 

 

_*Filters (Digital):*_


_Hugo (Ultimate Reference) (White)_
_Hugo HF+ (High Frequency roll off) (Green)_
_Mojo (‘Smooth’) (Orange)_
_Mojo HF+ (High Frequency roll off) (Red)_


----------



## x RELIC x

Personally, one of the last albums I would use as a reference, or testing gear, is Adele 25, especially the CD version. Terrible dynamic compression and artifacts, unless the Malaysian CD is much different.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Adele&album=25




gryphonguy said:


> ...
> 
> I retrieved from its storage bin, Adele’s “25” CD that I had purchased here in Malaysia and already ripped.
> 
> ...


----------



## dmance

I assume that DAVE will get a firmware update upon BLU2 launch. Presumably to accomodate the dual-coax inputs, etc. With BLU2 input, DAVE is not doing any upsampling and theres been no clarification on what all those freed FPGA resources on DAVE will be put toward. Lower noise floor? Better noise shaping??
And what happens when the new digital amp is attached to DAVE's digital outputs...With the amp now doing all the pulse array processing.
DAVE then sits in the middle doing what??
...I'm sure RW has great plans. Sure makes the full Chord stack quite interesting...


----------



## Toolman

gryphonguy said:


> adyc said:
> 
> 
> > I am not so sure about CD player demands in China. But I can assure you that the rest of Asia have abandoned CD players long time ago.
> ...


 
  
 In Singapore, the demise of several large CD chains and warehouses over the past 4~6 years testify to dwindling popularity of CD as the go-to medium for consuming music.

 Can't comment on Penang's market but I can hardly find any CD shops in KL nowadays. The only time I purchased CDs over the past 5 years are when I'm visiting Korea & Japan (for Korean & Japanese titles of course), or for the rare titles that are unavailable as digital download.


----------



## x RELIC x

It's clear why there is Blu mk2 discussion in the DAVE thread, but should the debate about the popularity of CDs be taken to the Blu mk2 thread....

http://www.head-fi.org/t/831343/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread


----------



## PhiQuanTu

I can't see why they wouldn't incorporate the 1M tap to the Dave 2 and make the whole world happy  (except the current Dave owners of course).


----------



## analogmusic

dmance said:


> And what happens when the new digital amp is attached to DAVE's digital outputs...With the amp now doing all the pulse array processing.
> DAVE then sits in the middle doing what??


 
  
 I hope John Franks will come out with some clarification about this, soon.


----------



## Christer

gryphonguy said:


> ​Well I am in Malaysia and in my local shopping mall we have 3 CD shops. 1 at a hi-fi shop that obviously goes for audiophile flavours, one at a stationery shop as a sideline and a dedicated music shop that sells all sorts of CD's DVDs LPs etc. Several thousand square feet of floor space dedicated to selling physical media for music. Roughly guessing I'd say that 80% of that space is for Chinese music CD's 10% for western CD's and 10% for DVDs LPs etc.
> 
> So Malaysia is in Asia and the market for CD music sales is enough to support 3 shops in just one shopping mall. So I beg to differ that the rest of Asia has abandoned CD's (and hence players). This Malaysian market puts weight behind the reason why Chord has stated that there is a market for its latest Blu2 product outside the likes of the USA market (even though USA is a big market but not the world's only significant market).
> 
> ...


 

 Ok we are geting a bit OT from DAVE here, and I don´t buy any cds since many years.Nor would I ever dream of buying a cd only  player ever again. During the whole period of rbcd players I only owned ONE and it sucked compared to  my Linn Sondek LP player. But I do have two  discplayers one universal that also plays DVDs and an SACD player that   also plays rbcds.  But I am a bit curious as to which mall in KL you are referring to?
 What HI FI shop? And who  is  still selling  LPs in KL? I still buy the occasional LP mainly from thrift shops though.
 Cheers Chris


----------



## Sonic77

phiquantu said:


> I can't see why they wouldn't incorporate the 1M tap to the Dave 2 and make the whole world happy  (except the current Dave owners of course).


 

 Blu MkII with DAVE: the world’s most advanced CD playback system

The Xilinx XC7A200T consumes an enormous 10 amps of current, so it couldn’t be implemented in DAVE as the sheer amount of current could upset DAVE’s comprehensive signal-processing. The engineering solution was to isolate this new FPGA and employ an external scaler — Blu MkII has (RF-isolated) 705.6kHz outputs to feed DAVE directly.The combination has created the world’s most advanced CD playback system.
 ​  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/new-chord-blu-mk-2-announced-31169/has created the world’s most advanced CD playback system.


----------



## rkt31

@GryphonGuy, even if you don't upsample in hq player , adding even dither/noise shaping ( ns9 or ns5 ) would only take you away from Dave's natural presentation. I don't have Dave but tried HQ player with mojo and hugo and in every configuration foobar bit perfect via chord asio driver beat all playing software I tried . imho j river too is not that clean. simply install free asio input plugin in foobar, select chord asio driver as output , disable all replay gain and you are ready to use the most hassle free and cleanest player . earlier DSD playback used to be a bit tricky in foobar but now after installing sacd plugin , a separate DSD asio driver appears as output in drop down list.


----------



## 514077

rkt31 said:


> @GryphonGuy, even if you don't upsample in hq player , adding even dither/noise shaping ( ns9 or ns5 ) would only take you away from Dave's natural presentation. I don't have Dave but tried HQ player with mojo and hugo and in every configuration foobar bit perfect via chord asio driver beat all playing software I tried . imho j river too is not that clean. simply install free asio input plugin in foobar, select chord asio driver as output , disable all replay gain and you are ready to use the most hassle free and cleanest player . earlier DSD playback used to be a bit tricky in foobar but now after installing sacd plugin , a separate DSD asio driver appears as output in drop down list.


 
 The new foo_input_sacd v1.0.5 series has really simplified DSD as well.  Thanks for your comments on JRiver as compared to FB.  Guess I can lay off Jim at JR for inaccessibility issues.
 Getting sort-of  back on track: I'm not familiar with this M Scalar.  What exactly is it?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I don't think a stand alone M Scaler is a sensible solution at all. At these levels of quality you want to reduce the chain, not increase it, where possible. The Blu2 unifies the source and the M Scaler. I would think it is far more sensible for Chord to unify streaming with an M Scaler in order to provide a top end solution for HD music. Otherwise some of the benefit will be lost on an unnecessary cable.


----------



## romaz

esimms86 said:


> So Roy, I'd be interested to know what's wrong with the Singxer usb-to-spdif converter. It does BNC/coax and it accepts PCM 384 and DSD256(although the M scalar only accepts DSD64 and 128). At 399 USD it looks like it just might be the cheapest and best option to pair with the Blu2. And one could always upgrade it with the PS of your choice if you so desire and after your wallet recovers.


 
  
 For sure, having to utilize a USB-to-SPDIF converter is an exercise in compromise which is why it would be great if Chord could somehow also sneak in a USB input to Blu2.  It would make life easier and with fewer regrets.  As USB is DAVE's best input, many of us have gone to great lengths to improve our USB setups and now that we have, we are being forced to consider a move to SPDIF with Blu2.
  
 I believe the Singxer converters, both the F-1 and SU-1 to be excellent based on reports from trusted sources.  Many have found the $200 F-1 to be preferable to the Mutec or the Berkeley Alpha that they used to own.  They use a very good Crystek oscillator and the SU-1, in particular, is easily modifiable and well suited to be powered by either an LPS-1 or my Paul Hynes.  At $399, the SU-1 is a very good value and as you've stated, it can pass through DXD and DSD256.  Singxer will be upgrading this model soon (possibly to the latest XMOS XU216 which has double the processing power) and so I will wait for that model to come out before giving it a try.
  
 Someone I trust who has experience with the Crystek oscillator that the Singxer uses as well as the new clock that will be in the prototype I will be receiving soon has suggested that this new clock makes the Crystek like a "child's toy" and so I will see what I get with this prototype in my system.  The problem with this prototype is that even if it sounds better, it only handles up to 24/192 PCM and cannot handle DSD and so I would be forced to have Roon transcode all my DSD files to PCM (which may turn out not to be a bad thing) and downsample the DXD files I own to 24/192 (which I have found to still sound very acceptable with my DAVE).  This is what I mean about converters being an exercise in compromise.  Even if this converter sounds better than USB, I would love to also have USB.


esimms86 said:


> The Blu2 is shaking out to be the product of choice for those
> 1)who've had a chance to hear it with Dave and, therefore, want one now
> 2)who have the funds to pay for one now and aren't worried about resale value or being early adopters
> 3)who are uncomfortable with the uncertainty as to when Davina will finally be available for purchase
> ...


 
  
 Yes, you've pretty much nailed it.  A lot can happen in the next few weeks and so no decision has been set in stone for me.


----------



## romaz

gryphonguy said:


> For the last couple of days I have removed HQPlayer from my scope of music production because I detected that the noise shaping profiles of NS5 and NS9 were destroying guitar string decay on upsampled Jesse Cook CD’s. lowering the noise shaping to NS4 seemed to fix the decaying strings effect but introduced a muddiness that was unacceptable. So my music was being produced by Roon only through USB into the DAVE using the Chord ASIO driver.
> 
> After reading about BNC connections on DAVE and Blu2 etc, last night I decided to dust off (literally) my Mark Levinson CD transport just to see how things were going now that DAVE has settled into my stereo (run-in, burned-in or whatever the latest terms are).
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have gone down this pathway as well.  Without exception, I have found DAVE to upsample to greater benefit than HQPlayer, regardless of sample rate.  For a while, I had been using HQPlayer in addition to Roon without upsampling as I had found the combination added a touch of clarity compared to Roon by itself.  More recently, as I switched from the microRendu to the sMS-200, further comparative listening revealed that a change had occured and the soundstage to sound more compressed with HQPlayer compared to Roon by itself and so I have now largely abandoned HQPlayer except during the times when I wish to use my Acourate DSP filters.  Whether this is due to a recent improvement in Roon or the way my sMS-200 handles HQPlayer is not clear but with the imminent release of Roon 1.3 which will have convolving capabilities, I will likely find no further use for HQPlayer at all.  Unless they botch something up, I fully expect Roon 1.3 to be my one-stop solution for music playback.


----------



## romaz

idesign said:


> It seems Chord is using "Mojo" and "Hugo" rather than DAVE to describe the four filters in Hugo 2. I'm sure that was a conscious marketing decision. This is taken from Chord's Hugo 2 product page:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Having spoken with Tom Vaughan, one of Chord's engineers who walked me through Hugo 2's feature set at CES, he described the "Hugo" and "Hugo HF+" filters as being roughly equivalent to "DAVE without HF" and "DAVE with HF", respectively.  Having spoken to Rob about this, the Hugo and Hugo HF+ filters are a further optimized version of DAVE's filters meaning that they are actually better than DAVE's filters.  If I recall correctly, should someone buy an M-scaler for their DAVE, Rob's improved filtering will already be incorporated into M-scaler and is a key reason why the M-scaler sounds better than one would expect from just a 6x increase in TAPS.  In Rob's words, "it's not just the number of TAPS, it's how you use those TAPS."  With M-scaler, there will be no toggle between "HF on" and "HF off" because M-scaler will only sound best one way -- with HF off.


----------



## Kamil21

romaz said:


> I have gone down this pathway as well.  Without exception, I have found DAVE to upsample to greater benefit than HQPlayer, regardless of sample rate.  For a while, I had been using HQPlayer in addition to Roon without upsampling as I had found the combination added a touch of clarity compared to Roon by itself.  More recently, as I switched from the microRendu to the sMS-200, further comparative listening revealed that a change had occured and the soundstage to sound more compressed with HQPlayer compared to Roon by itself and so I have now largely abandoned HQPlayer except during the times when I wish to use my Acourate DSP filters.  Whether this is due to a recent improvement in Roon or the way my sMS-200 handles HQPlayer is not clear but with the imminent release of Roon 1.3 which will have convolving capabilities, I will likely find no further use for HQPlayer at all.  Unless they botch something up, I fully expect Roon 1.3 to be my one-stop solution for music playback.




It is for reasons like this, and 3 years of constant tweaking of devices and software through my various computers, that I have finally gotten back to serious listening through a direct connect to my old cd transport. At least with Dave, I can sit through an entire album like I do with my vinyl turntable.

Yes' I'll be one of those seriously considering the Blu 2 cd transport, start enjoying the performance, and scouring the stores for 'vintage' CDs.


----------



## gryphonos

romaz said:


> I fully agree with this.  While some of my best music is DXD or 24/192, DAVE does such a wonderful job with Redbook (M-scaler will do even better) that at no time while listening to Redbook am I wanting for more.  For sure, there is a convenience and cost savings with buying CDs and ripping them as opposed to downloads.  For one, there are many more options through CD.
> 
> Regarding DSD, I have few native DSD recordings.  Most of the DSD I own were not recorded DSD and as I've compared these DSD tracks to their PCM equivalent on DAVE, I find PCM to sound better.  For example, I own Jazz at the Pawnshop in DSD128 and as I've done careful comparisons against the 16/44 stream from Tidal, the 16/44 stream sounds better on DAVE.  One thing for sure, if the recording wasn't made with a DSD recorder, I won't ever be seeking out DSD.
> 
> ...





Hello Roy, 
With regard to your post I want to ask the following.
In the chapter about your interesting findings you wrote, because of the usb-spsif converters you are forced to transcode your DSD files to PCM. 
I remember our discussion when you have been helping me with my problem not to be able to play DSD256 files from Roon via microRendu to my Dave. Did I understand you correctly that DSD can be played as native DSD or as DSD transcoded to PCM, which is called DoP? Right?
You have told me that via microRendu ( I guess with SoTM sms200 the situation would be similar?) DSD playback is only accessible in the transcoded way as DoP. Therefore I assumed DSD playback using microRendu (or SoTM sms 200?) and Dave in general could only be realized by trancoding to PCM (DoP). My DSD256 playback issue is related to another USB problem.
I have asked this just in order to understand your post.

Joerg-M.


----------



## x RELIC x

Another silly myth on Head Fi. 

DoP is DSD _over_ PCM, not transcoded to PCM. When using a DoP capable DAC the original DSD is decoded as DSD completely unchanged from the original DSD file. _Transcoding_ to PCM from DSD actually changes a DSD file to a PCM file.

Basically, DoP fools the USB interface to see a DSD stream as a PCM stream therefore bypassing the need for DSD drivers. Audibly the end result at the DAC is the exact same as DSD native.

http://www.northstar.it/dsd-native-vs-dop/


----------



## Peter Hyatt

kamil21 said:


> grandfathertime said:
> 
> 
> > This makes so much sense! Until I can purchase Dave I'm gonna get Hugo 2.
> ...


 

 With Dave's cost, this may be a tremendous boost for those who can't quite reach Dave but want excellence.  The question may become:
  
 Once you've grown used to Hugo 2, will Mojo sound less than inviting?   
  
 Which leads to one last question:
  
 Now that I've come to love Hugo 2, do I sell him and one of my spare kidneys to land Dave?  
  
 This really is fun.


----------



## iDesign

romaz said:


> Having spoken with Tom Vaughan, one of Chord's engineers who walked me through Hugo 2's feature set at CES, he described the "Hugo" and "Hugo HF+" filters as being roughly equivalent to "DAVE without HF" and "DAVE with HF", respectively.  Having spoken to Rob about this, the Hugo and Hugo HF+ filters are a further optimized version of DAVE's filters meaning that they are actually better than DAVE's filters.  If I recall correctly, should someone buy an M-scaler for their DAVE, Rob's improved filtering will already be incorporated into M-scaler and is a key reason why the M-scaler sounds better than one would expect from just a 6x increase in TAPS.  In Rob's words, "it's not just the number of TAPS, it's how you use those TAPS."  With M-scaler, there will be no toggle between "HF on" and "HF off" because M-scaler will only sound best one way -- with HF off.




Very interesting. I wished Rob Watts was more active on HeadFi to talk about his achievements with Hugo2's filters in relation to DAVE's. Does anyone have a video of Rob's presentation at the Venetian? Although I need another proper desktop DAC (without a battery and USB micro etc), the Hugo2 narrowly missed my mark and I'm not sure I want to replace my smaller Mojo with the larger Hugo 2.


----------



## Ampus

andrewold said:


> The Blu 2 is an ill-conceived product.
> 
> A sensibly less expensive stand-alone M Scaler with a USB input would be better fit to every single use case. If you have a BLU, a stand alone M Scaler would be a smarter, cheaper upgrade which would avoid junking a perfectly decent transport with years of life left. If you have a DAVE a stand alone M Scaler would be a no-brainer upgrade, whether your source is a laptop, a streamer or a CD transport such as a ONE, If you have non Chord transports or DACs you could just slot a stand alone M Scaler in and reap the benefits of this apparently huge step change in digital replay,
> 
> ...





I like Chord products and I do spin CD's; however, it would be awhile before I buy the Blu2 or M Scaler. My DAVE is only a few months old and already "obsolete"!!! I now find myself having to spend more of my hard-earned money just to keep my DAVE performing well above Chord's lesser DAC's. 

I would be even more unhappy if I get Blu2 (hopefully with USB input) or M Scaler (hopefully with USB as well as optical / BNC inputs for my non-Chord transport) now and a year (or may even be less) or so from now have to replace it when Chord comes out with Blu3 or M Scaler 2 because my Blu2 / M Scaler cannot be upgraded to the new technology in Blu3 / M Scaler 2 due to higher power consumption, noise generation, etc. That would be a hard pill to take, either orally or rectally!

I applaud the hard-core Chord fans on this forum who are willing to shell out money to get Chord's latest and greatest but at this point I think that it may be prudent for me to wait for the technology to mature and not jumping onto the bandwagon.


----------



## miketlse

idesign said:


> Very interesting. I wished Rob Watts was more active on HeadFi to talk about his achievements with Hugo2's filters in relation to DAVE's. Does anyone have a video of Rob's presentation at the Venetian? Although I need another proper desktop DAC (without a battery and USB micro etc), the Hugo2 narrowly missed my mark and I'm not sure I want to replace my smaller Mojo with the larger Hugo 2.


 
  
 Are you really surprised after some of the anger filled posts in the past two weeks?
  
 Rob has not posted for 6 days, Mython has not posted for 9 days, and it seems like John Franks is the only person left posting.


----------



## gryphonos

gryphonos said:


> Hello Roy,
> With regard to your post I want to ask the following.
> In the chapter about your interesting findings you wrote, because of the usb-spsif converters you are forced to transcode your DSD files to PCM.
> I remember our discussion when you have been helping me with my problem not to be able to play DSD256 files from Roon via microRendu to my Dave. Did I understand you correctly that DSD can be played as native DSD or as DSD transcoded to PCM, which is called DoP? Right?
> ...






Hello Roy,

in the meanwhile I have learned that transcoding is different from DoP.
Due to your success with transcoding DSD to PCM files this way sounds interesting for me.
How can I force Roon to apply the transcoding to PCM, which you have already implemented?

I would appreciate your support.


----------



## lovethatsound

miketlse said:


> Are you really surprised after some of the anger filled posts in the past two weeks?
> 
> Rob has not posted for 6 days, Mython has not posted for 9 days, and it seems like John Franks is the only person left posting.


Can you really blame people for be angry at chord,at this moment in time,probably not I'd say.☺


----------



## miketlse

lovethatsound said:


> Can you really blame people for be angry at chord,at this moment in time,probably not I'd say.☺


 
 If people are angry, why don't they direct the anger at the manufacturers of $100 DACs, and tell them to improve their performance to the same level as Mojo, but without raising their prices.
  
 Seriously though, the obsessive, anger filled posts that have been directed at Chord, say more about the posters than Chord.


----------



## JaZZ

lovethatsound said:


> miketlse said:
> 
> 
> > Are you really surprised after some of the anger filled posts in the past two weeks?
> ...


 
  
 I could imagine some other, more important cause for being angry (think January 20) than an audio device with the wrong features.


----------



## Jawed

idesign said:


> Does anyone have a video of Rob's presentation at the Venetian?



Some slides and audio of Rob's presentation available on this page:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/739-ces-2017-nice-surprises/

Now playing: Fleckfumie - Stille Nacht


----------



## astrostar59

miketlse said:


> lovethatsound said:
> 
> 
> > Can you really blame people for be angry at chord,at this moment in time,probably not I'd say.☺
> ...


 

 I think the dev speed in DACs has hotted up somewhat. If we slow it down we see other manufacturers catching up / leaving Chord behind. If we speed it up there are those who don't like the idea they bought a DAC that has become bettered by a new version / model 3 months later.
  
 The best way to possibly avoid this is:
 1. Stick with what you have and enjoy it.
 2. Buy a DAC with slot in boards like the C1 or MSB models.
 3. Buy and sell on an ongoing basis.
  
 Totally empathise with points made here mind.


----------



## lovethatsound

miketlse said:


> If people are angry, why don't they direct the anger at the manufacturers of $100 DACs, and tell them to improve their performance to the same level as Mojo, but without raising their prices.
> 
> Seriously though, the obsessive, anger filled posts that have been directed at Chord, say more about the posters than Chord.


when you spend £8500 on a dac,when you spend £5000 on the blu transport,and are told it will be upgradable,then to find out it's not,you're not going to be happy are you.Now don't get me wrong,i still love my Dave,and the Dave is still one of the best Dacs their is,even better with the blu 2.But i have to say,I'd really have to think long and hard about buying anything else from Chord at the moment.☺


----------



## miketlse

lovethatsound said:


> when you spend £8500 on a dac,when you spend £5000 on the blu transport,and are told it will be upgradable,then to find out it's not,you're not going to be happy are you.Now don't get me wrong,i still love my Dave,and the Dave is still one of the best Dacs their is,even better with the blu 2.But i have to say,I'd really have to think long and hard about buying anything else from Chord at the moment.☺


 
 One of the important factors in communication, is that people have to remember that there are two elements:
  

the message that people want to communicate
plus how they communicate that message (this includes the style/pleasant/anger filled/rational/persuasive/factual/etc)
  
 In the past two weeks, the part that lingers in my mind is all the anger, and not the messages that people wanted to communicate.
 Ultimately such communication is self defeating, because readers stop reading the posts.
  
 Do you have any documentary evidence that Chord stated that the Blu would be upgradeable?


----------



## iDesign

miketlse said:


> Are you really surprised after some of the anger filled posts in the past two weeks?
> 
> Rob has not posted for 6 days, Mython has not posted for 9 days, and it seems like John Franks is the only person left posting.


 

 I hope you are not including me in this comment. I have nothing but praise for Rob Watt's efforts that have allowed me to completely rediscover the tens of thousands recordings in my library that I've spent 25+ years collecting.


----------



## miketlse

idesign said:


> I hope you are not including me in this comment. I have nothing but praise for Rob Watt's efforts that have allowed me to completely rediscover the tens of thousands recordings in my library that I've spent 25+ years collecting.


 
 the only link, is that you mentioned that you wished Rob was more active in posting.
 i am not accusing you of anger filled posts - i am just suggesting that posters in general should not be surprised that two out of the three most active sources of helpful information from chord (during the last 18 months that i have followed this forum), have now fallen silent.


----------



## romaz

gryphonos said:


> Hello Roy,
> With regard to your post I want to ask the following.
> In the chapter about your interesting findings you wrote, because of the usb-spsif converters you are forced to transcode your DSD files to PCM.
> I remember our discussion when you have been helping me with my problem not to be able to play DSD256 files from Roon via microRendu to my Dave. Did I understand you correctly that DSD can be played as native DSD or as DSD transcoded to PCM, which is called DoP? Right?
> ...


 
 Hi Jörg,  
  
 As @x RELIC x has stated, DoP and native DSD are sonically equivalent although native DSD playback does have its advantages as it is less resource hungry and can lead to a smoother, more glitch-free listening experience.  As Rob has previously stated, with Chord's ASIO driver for windows, native DSD playback is possible and even with DSD512, playback occurs without any dropouts and this has been my experience as well.  
  
 The problem occurs when you introduce a Linux-based NAA like the microRendu or the sMS-200 into the chain.  These devices are capable of native DSD playback with certain DACs but because of the specific USB chipset firmware that is used in Chord's DACs, native DSD playback is not an option with these NAAs without somehow upgrading the firmware.  As you know, during our e-mail exchange with Jesus Rodriguez of Sonore and Matt Bartlett of Chord, it was decided that the solution to this is for Chord to write Linux drivers that enable this functionality and while Matt stated he would try to get to it at some point, because of more pressing priorities, this would take time.  As far as I am aware, these drivers have not yet been written.  
  
 What I am talking about with having Roon transcode DSD to PCM is to completely convert DSD to PCM before it reaches DAVE.  DSD256, for example, converts to PCM 705.6 and playback is extremely smooth.  Upon further listening, I am finding imaging focus to actually improve compared to the more diffuse and less distinct presentation of DSD.  There seems to be some compromise, however, with respect to depth.  Which is the better compromise seems to depend on the recording.


----------



## lovethatsound

miketlse said:


> One of the important factors in communication, is that people have to remember that there are two elements:
> 
> 
> the message that people want to communicate
> ...


it was mentioned earlier on in this thread somewhere,plus my dealer told me.☺


----------



## romaz

gryphonos said:


> Hello Roy,
> 
> in the meanwhile I have learned that transcoding is different from DoP.
> Due to your success with transcoding DSD to PCM files this way sounds interesting for me.
> ...


 
 Within Roon, go to Audio Setup and select "Settings" and then "Playback" under MicroRendu.  Under "DSD Playback Strategy", select "Convert to PCM."  Listen for yourself and decide which you prefer.  The advantage of converting DSD to PCM is that you no longer have to toggle between PCM Plus and DSD Plus, which was always a pain to do.  Of course, all stuttering goes away as well.
  
 As another experiment, with your regular PCM files, go ahead and switch DAVE from PCM Plus to DSD Plus and you will once again notice that imaging focus degrades but you also get this artificial increased perception of depth and space.  While it is not to my preference, some may find this alternate presentation appealing for certain flat recordings.


----------



## romaz

astrostar59 said:


> I think the dev speed in DACs has hotted up somewhat. If we slow it down we see other manufacturers catching up / leaving Chord behind. If we speed it up there are those who don't like the idea they bought a DAC that has become bettered by a new version / model 3 months later.
> 
> The best way to possibly avoid this is:
> 1. Stick with what you have and enjoy it.
> ...


 
 This is well stated.
  
 It is the nature of technology to not stand still and sometimes this advancement can occur at a dizzying pace, faster than some of us are comfortable with.  It is already well chronicled that Rob first conceptualized the significance of 1M taps while at university in the early 80s and he never believed at that time that 1M taps would ever be possible.  During DAVE's development, the Spartan 6 was the best there was and so 164,000 taps, while extraordinary at the time, still fell short.  Whether it caught Rob by surprise or not, I'm not sure, but with the advent of the Xilinx XC7A200T FPGA and its 740 DSP cores, all of a sudden 1M taps became possible and so here we are.  
  
As Rob has stated, going from 500k taps to 1M taps seemed to result in no diminishing return and so obviously, he is curious what pushing further to more taps might result in.  With an array of these FPGAs, he can theoretically push to infinity and beyond.  While 1M taps in theory achieves 16-bit accuracy, because Davina will be capable of 24-bits accuracy, I asked Rob what it would take to achieve this level of accuracy and he told me it would take 250 million taps!  While you could string together an array of 250 FPGAs to achieve this, of course, it would take a massive 2500A PSU and the processing time required would result in a 3.5 minute delay!  I am confident, however, that one day we will see that level of performance but whether it would markedly sound better than 1M taps is anyone's guess.
  
As far as DAVE being obsolete, this proclamation surprises me.  DAVE sounds as stellar today as when I bought it a year ago and even if I had no intentions of ever upgrading to M-scaler, there is still nothing else available at this time that can match its performance.  It remains the truest fidelity DAC that you can buy today bar none and regardless of price and its only true competition are Rob's other DACs.  For people to claim DAVE is obsolete because Hugo2 has closed the gap makes no sense.  While the value proposition of Hugo2 will be unbeatable upon its release, DAVE will still be better and will still have far greater potential.  People have to remember that M-scaler cannot produce sound on its own, it requires a DAC and only DAVE has the capability of fully interfacing with it.
  
I think it's fair that people be able to voice what they would like Chord to come out with and I'm confident they are listening.  I know of no other individual or company that interfaces with their customer base like Rob and Chord have and I believe if there was a genuine ground swell from this community of passionate DAVE owners for Chord to develop something as silly as an M-scaler with a built-in toaster oven so that we could each enjoy freshly baked goods as we listen to music, I have a feeling Chord would do it.  If John felt he could sell M-scalers this way, why not?  As John Franks has stated, Chord is a small company and can only do so much at one time.  If you recall John's concluding sentence from his post 2 days ago, "Have some patience we will not hold back you'll have it all soon enough!"


----------



## PhiQuanTu

Romaz, are you Rob or John in a different nick?  You seem to be very knowledgeable about them (even Rob's college dream). A lot of the concerns & questions asked are pretty good points. I wish we could get some answers from the horse's mouth.


----------



## Beolab

@Rob Watts

Just a thaught : 

Who will win a "SQ Death-match" between: 

1. Hugo 2 or Mojo + M-Scaler ( Davina / Blu 2 )

Vs 

DAVE alone in your oppion if you have had time to tested this combination yet? 

If you haven't, i am looking forward to your honest answer 

The Hugo 2 or Mojo + M-Scaler ( Davina / Blu 2 ) should win if we only are looking on the taprate, but the combo are not toe and toe on the rest specs , so i find this question very interesting. 

/ 

Fredrik


----------



## EVOLVIST

romaz said:


> As Rob has stated, going from 500k taps to 1M taps seemed to result in no diminishing return and so obviously, he is curious what pushing further to more taps might result in.  With an array of these FPGAs, he can theoretically push to infinity and beyond.  While 1M taps in theory achieves 16-bit accuracy,* because Davina will be capable of 24-bits accuracy*, I asked Rob what it would take to achieve this level of accuracy and he told me it would take *250 million taps!*  While you could string together an array of 250 FPGAs to achieve this, of course, it would take a massive 2500A PSU and the processing time required would result in a 3.5 minute delay!  I am confident, however, that one day we will see that level of performance but whether it would markedly sound better than 1M taps is anyone's guess.


 
  
 Will Davina be capable of 24-bit accuracy, though? I know you don't speak for Chord, but on one hand it sounds like you are saying that Davina will be capable of 24-bit accuracy, but only the other, to achieve 250 million taps, it won't be in the Davina chassis.
  
 I thought I would ask for you to clarify what you're saying.
  
 It doesn't seem like Davina can be too far off. I mean, three-weeks ago Rob said, "Incidentally, I am currently finishing off the first PCB layout for *Davina*...."
  
 What, early 2018 at the latest?
  
 With all of the back and forth of the Blu2, I'm reminded of the dream I had in October, of which I wrote:

  


> Originally Posted by *EVOLVIST* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> I had this dream. No joke, I actually dreamt this, that I went to the Chord factory, and I was hanging out with John Franks and Rob, along with some smoking hot employee of theirs, and for some reason (although this wouldn't happen in real life), Rob let me listen to a "DAVE" that was already at a little over 1million taps, but he explained that he couldn't put it out yet because they need to make money on the 500k, 750k tap models, first, otherwise they would kill their own market. I knew this made business sense - even if it was screwed up - but man, it left me feeling pretty hollow. Rob said, "I mean, why wouldn't I have already reached 1million taps, when all it is is a matter of programing."


 
  
 Interesting. Maybe I've tapped into their taps.


----------



## romaz

phiquantu said:


> Romaz, are you Rob or John in a different nick?  You seem to be very knowledgeable about them (even Rob's college dream). A lot of the concerns & questions asked are pretty good points. I wish we could get some answers from the horse's mouth.


 
 Much of what I have posted including the now famous 1M taps threshold that he first conceptualized while at university are based on his public posts.  You just have to read through his posts to verify this.  We have communicated often via PM over the months but I have the same access to Rob as anyone else.  He told me he answers every PM he receives (in due time) which is extraordinary if you think about how busy he is.  Rob was gracious enough to spend several hours with me over CES weekend.  Obviously, I had many questions and he was very kind to answer them.  I can say the same applies to John.  These two are true gentlemen.
  
 As for Rob's silence, I'm sure he has his reasons.  Give him his space and I'm sure he will respond in due time.  The last time I communicated with him, he was on his way to Japan.


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> Will Davina be capable of 24-bit accuracy, though? I know you don't speak for Chord, but only one hand it sounds like you are saying that Davina will be capable of 24-bit accuracy, but only the other, to achieve 250 million taps, it won't be in the Davina chassis.
> 
> I thought I would ask for you to clarify what you're saying.
> 
> ...


 
 There are 24-bit ADCs in existence now (144 dB of dynamic range) and so this is not new although most ADCs have an effective DR of only about 21 bits (or 126dB of DR).  Rob has previously posted Davina will be 24-bits but whether this will be an effective 24-bits, I don't know.  
  
 Regardless, most agree that the human ear can only resolve about 23 bits (or 140dB of DR). This is why it is somewhat of a joke for any DAC to boast of extreme dynamic range.  There is a DAC that is famous for claiming a DR of 28.5 effective bits (173dBFS) which is an irrelevant spec even if this measurement is accurate. 
  
 On a more practical level, Rob has used "hiss level" to describe the significance of DR and he has documented this several times in the past here on Head-Fi.  The goal is to push your DR to a level that you are no longer able to hear any amount of hiss with even the most sensitive transducer (usually a super-sensitive IEM) and so that is what he did with the DAVE, which has a measured DR of 127dB (A-weighted) or about 21 bits of DR.  He said he could have pushed for a higher number just to pad the spec sheet but there was no point in doing so.  He said that with only the most sensitive set of IEMs can you hear hiss with the DAVE and so with just about any headphone or speaker that most people would use, the hiss level of the DAVE would be at an inaudible level.  Of course, with this DAC that claims a DR of 173dB, since this DAC is _incapable _of driving headphones or speakers directly and _must_ rely on an outboard amplifier, this wonderful spec becomes completely buried by the DR of the amp, which often is no better than about 100dB (or about 16 bits of resolution).
  
 Of course, true analog sound (before it was finitely sampled by the ADC) is of infinite DR but since humans can only hear 23-bits of resolution (or 140dB of DR), then ideally, that should be the theoretical target of any audio system.  Since the dynamic range of most concert halls has been estimated to be between 80-100dB and since the dynamic range of most amplifiers is generally about 100dB, this could serve as a more practical target which equates to about 17 bits (essentially, the DR of a CD).  This is all well and good provided that you can accurately recreate the analog waveform at that resolution to begin with and this is where all DACs fall short but also where only Rob's DACs truly excel.  
  
 Where every other DAC strives to translate the compromised digital waveform created by today's compromised ADCs, Rob's DACs, through their very long tap length filters, attempt to recreate the original analog signal before it was compromised by the ADC.  This is where the number of taps matter.  For a 16-bit analog waveform, Rob has calculated you need about 1M taps to recreate this waveform.  If you're going to go for broke and shoot for 24-bits, then you will need 250 million taps.  At what point does the number of taps no longer matter?  That is what Rob hopes to find out and he realizes that it's not just about the number of taps but how they are utilized if musicality is the ultimate goal.  His sole purpose for Davina was never to make a commercial product out of it but to answer some of these questions.  
  
 This is from Rob himself and is taken from an interview Rob did for www.the-ear.net.
  
"OK, the interpolation filter’s job in a DAC is to re- create the missing parts of the original analogue signal - the signal in between one sample and the next. This is done with an FIR filter. In a simple way, a FIR filter consists of a data memory (this stores previous data samples) and a coefficient memory (this is a fixed memory with all of the coefficients that the filter algorithm has created). To create an intermediate data, you simply multiply and add all of the stored data samples with a particular coefficient, and once you have added all of the values you end up with the intermediate value you need. Now in the early days, you used a delay line to store the previous data samples, and you tapped into this delay line in order to access the stored data. Hence the word taps.

So why is it only me that goes on about taps and stuff? The problem is about understanding - when I was at university, I studied electronics. But I was passionate about audio, and was interested in the physiology of hearing. I thought if I understood that, I could make better audio electronics. One of the things I was very interested in was how the brain processed the output from the ears. Now we take our hearing for granted, but the brain does some amazing things to give us auditory perception - separating individual sounds into separate entities with placement data (where are sounds located) is an amazing feat, requiring considerable processing. And we know very little as to how the brain does this. Anyway, what I did learn was that transients were a very important perceptual cue, and that the timing of transients was crucial. From transients the ear brain locates sounds in space, it is also used to compute pitch (particularly for bass) and it’s used for getting the timbre of an instrument. I spent a lot of time researching this in the psychology library, which was close to my hall of residence. Anyway, one of the courses in electronics was Whittaker Shannon sampling theory. And this is the basis of digital audio. From this it is a fact that if you had an infinite tap length FIR filter you would perfectly reconstruct the original bandwidth limited analogue signal in the ADC. It would make no difference if it was sampled at 22uS or 22pS you would have the same digital signal. But it was very clear to me that having a limited tap length would create timing errors. And I know from my studies and from my own listening tests that that would be a major subjective problem.

Now, unfortunately, nobody else has recognised this problem for two reasons. One is electronic engineers do not study hearing, and the second problem is that they are stuck on the idea that filters are a frequency domain problem and not a time domain problem. So if you design a filter where your only concern is frequency, then a 100 taps or so is enough. But if you think from the timing perspective, it categorically is not enough. What I have done is to make no assumptions about whether something makes a difference to the sound unless I actually do a listening test. And listening to increasing tap lengths always improves the sound quality. With Dave, I am at 164,000 taps, and I know that that is not the end of it and that further improvements are possible."


----------



## analogmusic

Roy, could you clarify, that 1 million taps is what is needed for 16 bit i.e. CD quality
  
 While more taps are needed for 24 bit files, the file size puts me off, and frankly, never heard a huge increase in SQ to justify any spend on 24 bit music files or hardware, once I heard what Hugo was capable of with 16 bit.
  
 CD is very good when decoded properly. I expect that Davina encoding 16 bit will be all that is required to enjoy music.
  
 yesterday night : listening to "New Jersey" Bon Jovi, the entire album, on Mojo. Really enjoyed this old recording brought to life by Mojo in my car. Wasn't really thinking, "now how would it sound on Dave" as I was simply enjoying the energy of the band and how much fun they had when recording the album, as Rob said, forgetting about the sound, and enjoying the music.


----------



## romaz

Regarding the premature proclamation of DAVE's obsolescence, there is one thing I am hoping will happen with DAVE in the not so distant future that will further enhance its value and appeal for those those of us who own a DAVE but also for those who are looking for a DAC and are wondering if Hugo2 is good enough or whether they should spend more for DAVE.  Rob has stated in the past that DAVE is capable of being upgraded via a code update but that he would never do it unless it resulted in a significant improvement to DAVE.  Perhaps, that time is now for the following reasons:
  
 1)  When paired with M-scaler, many of DAVE's DSP cores will now sit idle and I have wondered if these cores can be re-purposed for greater things?  Certainly, it would be ideal for DAVE users who don't plan to upgrade to M-scaler to have Hugo2's improved filters.  Some (Beolab, BMichels, and Jelt2359) have proposed filter options to tailor DAVE"s sound signature (warmer, cooler, neutral, etc) to help balance the tonal deficiencies in one's system.  dCS has such options.  
  
 2)  Improving the SPDIF input.  As Rob has stated, SPDIF is not synchronous to DAVE's clock (only USB is) and must go through DPLL first.  Since M-scaler must use the SPDIF inputs, it would probably make some difference in SQ to make the SPDIF inputs as good as USB.
  
 3)  Code for better remote functionality.  Rob stated that he ran out of time to properly code for DAVE's remote and so only a few of the remote's buttons actually function.  It would be great if DAVE had a fully functioning remote.
  
 I'm sure there would be some nominal cost for such an upgrade which most of us will probably be happy to pay for.


----------



## romaz

analogmusic said:


> Roy, could you clarify, that 1 million taps is what is needed for 16 bit i.e. CD quality
> 
> While more taps are needed for 24 bit files, the file size puts me off, and frankly, never heard a huge increase in SQ to justify any spend on 24 bit music files or hardware, once I heard what Hugo was capable of with 16 bit.
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, this is what Rob has said all along.  Ideally, you need an infinite tap length filter but for 16-bits of resolution, he has said 1M taps should get you to a point where you ears can no longer tell that information is missing compared against the original 16-bit waveform.  As I stated, our ears can hear better than 16-bits which is why Rob is pushing to explore what more taps will bring and why Davina will be invaluable for him.  Will 24-bits be necessary?  Here is what he told me some time ago:
  
"Ok it's the coefficient accuracy that we are looking at. This does not mean that the overall accuracy is the same; it may be better depending upon the test signal I guess. Anyway since function halves for doubling the length so 24 bit would be a quarter of a giga tap! But I guess law of diminishing returns will step in. Again that's the benefits of davina; I will have a 768 file properly decimated to 48 then wta scaler back to 768 and I will get an idea of how much losses actually are.
  
Rob"


----------



## EVOLVIST

Yeah, really, the only way I'm digging on a 24/96 file or 24/192, or DSD in its various permutations is because it's a new remaster in that format that you can't get via RBCD. Otherwise, right, for the most part, the differences in sound quality are lost to me. And really, 9 times out of 10 that's what you're getting with 24-bit recordings, from HDTracks, Pono, or whatever, is a new remaster. I'm convinced that most people are going ga-ga over the nice dynamic HDTracks remaster instead of the difference between 16/44.1 and 24/192.

There are really very few of us that have heard what a full 16-bits can give (what Chord is trying to change), so it often makes me think why bother with 24-bit music anyway, unless it's for the aforementioned reasons. 

As Roy pointed out, what can the ear hear, and what can it not? Even beyond what the ear takes in, and what the brain encodes, I have doubts that these higher frequencies and extra bits make much of a difference at all. 

That's just my take on it. I could be wrong. Just as, when I first got my DAVE I thought crap in/crap out. But then there are some muddy recordings that I have that the DAVE combo of HD800s/Focal Utopia unmuddied some recordings to where they actually did sound better even in just 16/44.

There are many variables as to why that is for some recordings and not for others, including, but not limited to, compressors used in the actual tracking/mixing, the condition of the analogue tape, the amount of digital processing pre and post mix, the EQ of the mastering process, etc. 

Is 16-bit enough for playback? I'm pretty sure it is. Does it take an infinite amount of taps or just 1 million? I haven't a clue yet. I haven't hear either at the moment.


----------



## Rob Watts

idesign said:


> romaz said:
> 
> 
> > Having spoken with Tom Vaughan, one of Chord's engineers who walked me through Hugo 2's feature set at CES, he described the "Hugo" and "Hugo HF+" filters as being roughly equivalent to "DAVE without HF" and "DAVE with HF", respectively.  Having spoken to Rob about this, the Hugo and Hugo HF+ filters are a further optimized version of DAVE's filters meaning that they are actually better than DAVE's filters.  If I recall correctly, should someone buy an M-scaler for their DAVE, Rob's improved filtering will already be incorporated into M-scaler and is a key reason why the M-scaler sounds better than one would expect from just a 6x increase in TAPS.  In Rob's words, "it's not just the number of TAPS, it's how you use those TAPS."  With M-scaler, there will be no toggle between "HF on" and "HF off" because M-scaler will only sound best one way -- with HF off.
> ...


 
 Yes life has been extremely busy - last week was finishing production code for Blu 2 (tested and delivered to Chord) and finishing Davina PCB (just front panel left to do).
  
 I have just arrived in Japan with John, picking up another award for Dave and next week I plan to do a full posting about Hugo 2 on my blog showing all the slides in full plus adding some more comments.
  
 But just to clarify - the Hugo 256 FS filter is identical to Dave's - and with the M scaler and Dave the HF filter option is best off as I have innately improved the stop-band rejection - so noise isn't needed to be filtered away because it's already gone. That was why it was odd that 44.1 sounded better overall with the filter on, as my expectation was for no change as rejection of out of band noise was already 130 dB, and in the critical areas (around multiples of the sample rate) with the most noise present, was about 150 dB rejection.
  
 Rob


----------



## EVOLVIST

romaz said:


> Yes, this is what Rob has said all along.  Ideally, you need an infinite tap length filter but for 16-bits of resolution, he has said 1M taps should get you to a point where you ears can no longer tell that information is missing compared against the original 16-bit waveform.  As I stated, our ears can hear better than 16-bits which is why Rob is pushing to explore what more taps will bring and why Davina will be invaluable for him.  Will 24-bits be necessary?  Here is what he told me some time ago:
> 
> [COLOR=0000CD]"Ok it's the coefficient accuracy that we are looking at. This does not mean that the overall accuracy is the same; it may be better depending upon the test signal I guess. Anyway since function halves for doubling the length so 24 bit would be a quarter of a giga tap! But I guess law of diminishing returns will step in. Again that's the benefits of davina; I will have a 768 file properly decimated to 48 then wta scaler back to 768 and I will get an idea of how much losses actually are.[/COLOR]
> 
> [COLOR=0000CD]Rob"[/COLOR]




It's a fantastic excerise, and I would love to be proven wrong, but I guess that's the game, right, to see if pushing 24-bits is audible? I would be taking a lot if faith to say that it is. I have read no sound proof that 24-bits gives an audible difference at all. Not even based upon DBs.


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> Yeah, really, the only way I'm digging on a 24/96 file or 24/192, or DSD in its various permutations is because it's a new remaster in that format that you can't get via RBCD. Otherwise, right, for the most part, the differences in sound quality are lost to me. And really, 9 times out of 10 that's what you're getting with 24-bit recordings, from HDTracks, Pono, or whatever, is a new remaster. I'm convinced that most people are going ga-ga over the nice dynamic HDTracks remaster instead of the difference between 16/44.1 and 24/192.
> 
> There are really very few of us that have heard what a full 16-bits can give (what Chord is trying to change), so it often makes me think why bother with 24-bit music anyway, unless it's for the aforementioned reasons.
> 
> ...


 
 You're right.  It is only now with 1M taps that we can hear just how good 16-bits is supposed to sound.  When you get to hear M-scaler, you will hear for yourself just how much is missing with DAVE and how much more is missing with other DACs.  I also agree that the quality of the performance, the recording and the mastering technique are much more important than whether it was recorded in DSD, DXD or 16/44.  I also think that those who go to great lengths to properly record and master a performance today are much more likely to go for higher bit-rate and sampling and so often, people will assume that something sounds great because it was recorded in DSD or DXD.


----------



## iDesign

rob watts said:


> "...the Hugo 256 FS filter is identical to Dave's..."
> Rob


 

 My jaw just dropped. I will be replacing my Mojo and placing an order for a Hugo 2 straight away.


----------



## ubs28

idesign said:


> My jaw just dropped. I will be replacing my Mojo and placing an order for a Hugo 2 straight away.




The Mojo has 2048 FS which is higher than both the Dave and the Hugo 2?


----------



## EVOLVIST

Allow me to add the caveat regarding 16-bit vs. 24-bit, that at the moment a great deal of the recordings in 24-bit, through HDTracks, Pono, etc. are upscaled anyway, thus with identical masters I/you don't hear the difference. 

If a difference does exist, it will be because we are hearing a recording that was natively recorded in whatever sample rate, or DXD, DSD, etc.

For me, I listen to way far more music recorded before 1990, than anything else. I would say then that I'm safe with 16-bit for the most part; however, I do get a thrill out of hearing familiar classical pieces recorded in various bits and frequencies as well as some great ones in native DXD. 

But this also has its rub in that most clasical music has a totally different mastering process, often no mastering to speak of at all. I wonder then, on such raw recordings, with properly placed microphones, super skilled engineers, and the like, if I really would hear the same SQ in 16/44. I think so. 

After all, I do own some classical, jazz and blues recordings that blows away anything I've ever heard with higher samples rates, or DSD/DXD. Some of these are stereo and even some mono that date from the late '50s to early 1960s. They we're just properly set up and recorded to begin with. That's all there is to it.


----------



## romaz

ubs28 said:


> The Mojo has 2048 FS which is higher than both the Dave and the Hugo 2?


 
 No, DAVE upsamples to 2048FS also.  Here is what Rob has said regarding DAVE:
  
"No I over sample to 2048 FS, or a new filtered sample every 9.6 nS.
  
The first WTA stage is 16FS. Then the next WTA stage is at 256 FS. Then a three stage filter then takes it to 2048 FS.
  
Its done for a number of reasons - to reduce the timing of transients uncertainty problem, to enable the noise shapers to work at 104 MHz so that the noise shapers can reproduce depth correctly, and finally to allow no measurable noise floor modulation."


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> Allow me to add the caveat regarding 16-bit vs. 24-bit, that at moment a great deal of the recordings in 24-bit, through HDTracks, Pono, etc. are upscaled anyway, thus with identical masters I/you don't hear the difference.
> 
> If a difference does exist, it will be because we are hearing a recording that was natively recorded in whatever sample rate, or DXD, DSD, etc.


 
 Yes, I have found this to be very true.  I often now don't go to the expense of buying high-res unless I know it was recorded that way.  Modern classical recordings are often this way.  Other genres, not so much.


----------



## ray-dude

romaz said:


> Yes, this is what Rob has said all along.  Ideally, you need an infinite tap length filter but for 16-bits of resolution, he has said 1M taps should get you to a point where you ears can no longer tell that information is missing compared against the original 16-bit waveform.  As I stated, our ears can hear better than 16-bits which is why Rob is pushing to explore what more taps will bring and why Davina will be invaluable for him.  Will 24-bits be necessary?  Here is what he told me some time ago:
> 
> "Ok it's the coefficient accuracy that we are looking at. This does not mean that the overall accuracy is the same; it may be better depending upon the test signal I guess. Anyway since function halves for doubling the length so 24 bit would be a quarter of a giga tap! But I guess law of diminishing returns will step in. Again that's the benefits of davina; I will have a 768 file properly decimated to 48 then wta scaler back to 768 and I will get an idea of how much losses actually are.
> 
> Rob"


 
  
 The pace of innovation will grow exponentially once Rob is able to close the loop between true analog capture to 768K with the Davina ADC, down sample to various bit depths and sampling frequencies, then run through the scaling pipeline, and compare.  The speed and efficiency of tuning should grow exponentially.  
  
 I don't know the nature of Rob's algorithms, but if we're lucky, they'll lend themselves to some sort of machine learning/deep learning so the coefficients can be trained to an optimum point themselves.  The scope and potential of the end to end control from A to D to d to D to A is breathtaking, and to have it all ride on hardware that is growing in price performance at faster than Moore's law makes me very very happy indeed
  
 Can't wait for the future to get here Rob!


----------



## Rob Watts

evolvist said:


> romaz said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, this is what Rob has said all along.  Ideally, you need an infinite tap length filter but for 16-bits of resolution, he has said 1M taps should get you to a point where you ears can no longer tell that information is missing compared against the original 16-bit waveform.  As I stated, our ears can hear better than 16-bits which is why Rob is pushing to explore what more taps will bring and why Davina will be invaluable for him.  Will 24-bits be necessary?  Here is what he told me some time ago:
> ...


 
 256 million taps would take me years to code! And I am sure it won't be necessary, but I have been wrong before about expectations.
  
 Now with all this fuss about M scaler and (at the moment) limited to BNC and CD on the Blu 2 we need to take a step backwards in time. When half a M taps became possible in spring of 2016, my expectation was that it would NOT make a great deal of difference - and this was based on previous experience. When I went from 26,000 to 164,000 in Dave the improvement was there but I was disappointed; it had taken me 9 months to design, with a lot of problems on the way, and it just sounded better. So in my mind I had expectations that more taps would give better sound, but it would be a small but still worthwhile improvement. Now this was before I re-worked the WTA algorithm, and moved from 8FS to 16FS - both of which was much more important in SQ terms than the tap length. So in my mind I had expectations that going to more taps (0.5M initially) would give a worthwhile improvement for sure - but only worthwhile.
  
 Now when I first heard the 0.5M taps I was questioning my own hearing as it was transformational in SQ - certainly not a mere improvement. It was because it was so good I pushed the boat out and squeezed 1M taps out of a reluctant FPGA. Had I known in advance that 1M taps was hugely important, then there is no way we would have launched M scaler technology as a CD player. But what people fail to realise is that developing a product for manufacture is not a simple process, and that things take considerable time and a lot of boring background work goes on, together with detailed planning and scheduling. Parts need to be ordered, and sometimes delivery schedules can be a year in advance - Mojo production was planned a whole year in advance, and that was just from obtaining the parts POV.
  
 Getting back to expectations - the way I work is to identify an error, then work on reducing that error until you can no longer hear a change. Imagine a biscuit (cookies) barrel, and you just keep picking out biscuits, getting better and better SQ, until no more biscuits come out. The problem with audio is you can't see the barrel, because it is buried in the earth, and you can't see inside the barrel. The only way of finding out how deep the barrel is is to keep taking biscuits out. But that's cool if the biscuits are a foot deep. But how do you pull out biscuits that are a mile deep? It gets harder to do it, and there may only be biscuits just 13 inches deep or it may be over a mile deep - you don't know for sure. So you often don't know how small the error needs to be before it becomes inaudible - and experience has taught me not to make assumptions as to whether something is audible or not. You can only find out after doing rigorous and careful listening tests - and it may have taken many months to design the new module.
  
 Now we know that 1M taps is much better than 0.5M taps - so how far away can we go, how deep is the barrel? What excites me about Davina is I shall know for *sure* how many biscuits are left, as I will be able to listen to 768k, then hear what the decimation does, then hear how good the 1M tap interpolation actually is. So I will be able to measure how deep the barrel actually is; hopefully the 1M taps is very close to the original, as I really really do not want to spend years coding for ultra long tap lengths.
  
 Rob


----------



## analogmusic

Thank you for posting, Rob. much appreciated, given how busy you must be.
  
 What is the significance of the 256 FS filter in Hugo 2 compared to 16 HS in Hugo 1?
  
 Also can you please elaborate on "Now this was before I re-worked the WTA algorithm, and moved from 8FS to 16FS - both of which was much more important in SQ terms than the tap length"
  
 Does Dave has the 16 FS filters?
  
 About Hugo 2, what makes Dave special is the -350 DB noise shaper, which gives (I think) the small signal performance of Dave, and indeed the noise shaper code is so huge, it won't fit on the 16 core Hugo 1 FPGA. So Dave will still sound better than Hugo 2, even if Hugo 2 got the 256 FS WTA filters


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## Sonic77

Looks like no M scaler with usb connection for a couple of years, that should help people decide, I'm still on the fence. I want to be able to stream with the Blu MK II which would add a lot to this purchase.


----------



## jelt2359

rob watts said:


> Now when I first heard the 0.5M taps I was questioning my own hearing as it was transformational in SQ - certainly not a mere improvement. It was because it was so good I pushed the boat out and squeezed 1M taps out of a reluctant FPGA. *Had I known in advance that 1M taps was hugely important, then there is no way we would have launched M scaler technology as a CD player.* But what people fail to realise is that developing a product for manufacture is not a simple process, and that things take considerable time and a lot of boring background work goes on, together with detailed planning and scheduling. Parts need to be ordered, and sometimes delivery schedules can be a year in advance - Mojo production was planned a whole year in advance, and that was just from obtaining the parts POV.


 
 Thanks for this. Very refreshing to hear the truth, rather than 'hey it can't be done any other way', etc etc. Always appreciated that about you, Rob 
  
 I will be waiting eagerly to see what the results of Davina yield. I'm guessing at that time Davina will be built to get as close to a _biscuit-less _situation as possible.


----------



## Rob Watts

analogmusic said:


> Thank you for posting, Rob. much appreciated, given how busy you must be.
> 
> What is the significance of the 256 FS filter in Hugo 2 compared to 16 HS in Hugo 1?
> 
> ...


 
 The 256FS filter is a massive change - in the way you can hear the starting and stopping of notes. So a click would sound soft with 16FS as you can't perceive the transients properly - but via a 256 FS WTA filter the timing resolution improves - and this makes fast sharp transients sound fast and sharp. It also gives the impression of better instrument power too.
  
 So with Hugo 1 I had two WTA filters - one going to 8FS, then another from 8FS to 16FS. With Dave, it sounded better if I used a single WTA filter going from 1FS to 16FS - it's difficult to explain why but cascading filters does not give the same time domain accuracy as a single longer tap length filter - they do sound different.
  
 Yes Dave is still a very big change up from Hugo 2 - its less to do with code, and more to do with the analogue complexity and parts used. After all, Dave still measures a lot better than Hugo 2. Hugo 2 is much closer to Dave than the original Hugo, as it shares so much from Dave. Trickle down at work!
  
 Rob


----------



## rkt31

m scaler to Dave must be a big step for how digital should sound, natural just like analog sound. may be in future people use the combo to record the albums on wide analog tapes and share to those who can't afford dave+m scaler combo. for many it may be the only way to experience this technical marvel.


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## analogmusic

Well I think Mojo is a great way to experience the magic of Rob Watts technology.... of course very interesting to hear Mscaler and Dave together, but I expect it will be the sound of natural music, as it is live and unamplified, just a return back to how music is supposed to sound....


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Evolving
"Is 16-bit enough for playback? I'm pretty sure it is. Does it take an infinite amount of taps or just 1 million? I haven't a clue yet. I haven't hear either at the moment."

Like you I doubt 24 bit playback is necessary but 18bit and possibly 20bit may be but only with the absolute best recordings (perhaps as small as 2%) of all recordings.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

romaz said:


> You're right.  It is only now with 1M taps that we can hear just how good 16-bits is supposed to sound.  When you get to hear M-scaler, you will hear for yourself just how much is missing with DAVE and how much more is missing with other DACs.  I also agree that the quality of the performance, the recording and the mastering technique are much more important than whether it was recorded in DSD, DXD or 16/44.  I also think that those who go to great lengths to properly record and master a performance today are much more likely to go for higher bit-rate and sampling and so often, people will assume that something sounds great because it was recorded in DSD or DXD.




I agree Romaz, most of the perceived benefit of hi definition recordings is more likely to be merely a compensation for the original limited conversion quality. The reason I say this is that technically Red Book should be the equal of Vinyl In most areas and better in some areas but most respected audiophiles still claim Vinyl is superior. That says to me red Book is compromised by conversion and therefore has more to offer than even the best hi def through Dave. I am not surprised by the revelations over the M Scaler. I will buy it as soon as available.


----------



## analogmusic

from what I can hear the solution to the digital problem is what Rob talked about, his WTA filters and pulse array DAC - 16 bit is a good place to stop.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

analogmusic said:


> from what I can hear the solution to the digital problem is what Rob talked about, his WTA filters and pulse array DAC - 16 bit is a good place to stop.




I think you could be right, for those of us that didn't jump to hi definition recordings but it won't stop me checking out further work done by Rob just in case. I guess I am just a hifi junkie.


----------



## Rob Watts

I think we are in danger of misunderstanding bit depth here. When I talk about 16 bits on the coefficients on the ideal sinc function interpolation filter, this has no bearing on the actual bit depth from the recording.
  
 Let me explain. A 16 bit 44.1 kHz recording has no timing errors innately (if it's been properly decimated which none do but that's another story). Likewise, a 24 bit 44.1 kHz has no timing errors innately. It's only when you convert from a sampled waveform (the original data) to a continuous signal via the interpolator (the filter or in my case the WTA filter) when you get the timing errors - and if you use ideal sinc function filter with 16 bit values (this is only with > 1M taps) then you know for sure all errors against ideal is less than 16 bits. It makes no difference whether the original data is 16 bit or 24 bit - you will get the same timing errors because that is down to the coefficient accuracy against ideal not the bit depth to start with.
  
 In practice the classical recordings that give the most improvements to me seem to be 16 bit 44.1 from the 1960's - and I am sure this is down to the recording techniques and optimised equipment that Decca and Mercury used at the time, rather than the file format. Modern recordings don't have the timbre variations or the ability to portray the speed and power and sheer impact of the best of the 1960's recordings.
  
 Rob


----------



## Hubert H

And don't forget the trade offs, more taps mean a longer delay, more processing is also more power.
  
 The ~4 second delay with the max buffer setting on the DAC64 and QBD was just about bearable.
  
 Maybe Rob's later iterations will have a user selectable tap length...


----------



## analogmusic

Dear Rob
  
 Sorry to ask really obvious questions, but we are not engineers.
  
 What does properly decimated mean?


----------



## Beolab

sonic77 said:


> Looks like no M scaler with usb connection for a couple of years, that should help people decide, I'm still on the fence. I want to be able to stream with the Blu MK II which would add a lot to this purchase.


 
 M-Scaler with USB input = DAVINA ( And about the price, Chord Coral  / Reference series will not be for everyone)
 You do not need to use the ADC function just =)


----------



## ToroFiestaSol

beolab said:


> M-Scaler with USB input = DAVINA ( And about the price, Chord Coral  / Reference series will not be for everyone)
> You do not need to use the ADC function just =)


 
  
 Bingo!
 No one will buy an ADC, so Davina will be the M-Scaler.
  
 I'm glad to see someone with common sense here


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I must admit if I wasn't so keen to get my hands on the Blu2 M Scaler I would be quite happy with Davina and would enjoy recording music again.


----------



## Mojo ideas

rob watts said:


> 256 million taps would take me years to code! And I am sure it won't be necessary, but I have been wrong before about expectations.
> 
> Now with all this fuss about M scaler and (at the moment) limited to BNC and CD on the Blu 2 we need to take a step backwards in time. When half a M taps became possible in spring of 2016, my expectation was that it would NOT make a great deal of difference - and this was based on previous experience. When I went from 26,000 to 164,000 in Dave the improvement was there but I was disappointed; it had taken me 9 months to design, with a lot of problems on the way, and it just sounded better. So in my mind I had expectations that more taps would give better sound, but it would be a small but still worthwhile improvement. Now this was before I re-worked the WTA algorithm, and moved from 8FS to 16FS - both of which was much more important in SQ terms than the tap length. So in my mind I had expectations that going to more taps (0.5M initially) would give a worthwhile improvement for sure - but only worthwhile.
> 
> ...


 Crumbs! He's not crackers honestly


----------



## darkless

So, after Blu 2 has been released, what's next in the pipeline? The Davina or the digital amp? (and does it have a name?)


----------



## miketlse

mojo ideas said:


> Crumbs! He's not crackers honestly


 
 Far from it. Rob follows the scientific method, by proposing hypotheses (1 million taps will be enough (or not enough), 16 bits is sufficient (or not sufficient)), and then developing the equipment to test those hypotheses.
  
 I presume part of his mind is already thinking of the next incremental steps, 2 million taps/17 bits etc, just in order to explore if he has reached the 'good enough' stage.
  
 Somehow I think that Rob will never reach the ultimate 'good enough' - maybe 'good enough' for a commercial product, but creative minds will always identify interesting avenues to explore, in the search for scientifically 'good enough and understood'.


----------



## miketlse

darkless said:


> So, after Blu 2 has been released, what's next in the pipeline? The Davina or the digital amp? (and does it have a name?)


 
 The Davina receives the most mentions, so I presume that it is the next in the pipeline.
  
 The digital amp receives occasional mentions, but maybe that is because Rob has less involvement in the development (I think that @Mojo ideas was the key actor in previous amps, so maybe he has the greater input into the digital amp - sorry if my memory has been fallible on this topic).


----------



## AndrewOld

beolab said:


> M-Scaler with USB input = DAVINA ( And about the price, Chord Coral  / Reference series will not be for everyone)
> You do not need to use the ADC function just =)


 

 Sure "You do not need to use the ADC function" of the proposed Davina. But you do need to pay for it. 
  
 Unless most of your customers are professional users, nearly every Davina you might sell will have a completely wasted ADC section. Do you think that is sensible? Elegant? Respectful of resources?


----------



## AndrewOld

romaz said:


> Regarding the premature proclamation of DAVE's obsolescence, there is one thing I am hoping will happen with DAVE in the not so distant future that will further enhance its value and appeal for those those of us who own a DAVE but also for those who are looking for a DAC and are wondering if Hugo2 is good enough or whether they should spend more for DAVE.  Rob has stated in the past that DAVE is capable of being upgraded via a code update but that he would never do it unless it resulted in a significant improvement to DAVE.  Perhaps, that time is now for the following reasons:
> 
> 1)  When paired with M-scaler, many of DAVE's DSP cores will now sit idle and I have wondered if these cores can be re-purposed for greater things?  Certainly, it would be ideal for DAVE users who don't plan to upgrade to M-scaler to have Hugo2's improved filters.  Some (Beolab, BMichels, and Jelt2359) have proposed filter options to tailor DAVE"s sound signature (warmer, cooler, neutral, etc) to help balance the tonal deficiencies in one's system.  dCS has such options.
> 
> ...


 

 These are good points. I also notice that Rob has said
  
 "One of the curious things was switching on the HF filter with Dave - with 44.1 it should not sound better - and this immediately told me that I needed to improve the WTA filter stop-band performance, and this was done by increasing the bit depth on the quantised coefficients. This worked; now M scaler sounds better with the HF filter off (exactly as it should do)."
  
 ​which makes me wonder whether this improvement in the WTA stop-band performance could also be incorporated in the DAVE code.
  
 (Not sure that I want different filters though. There should only be one setting. Right.)


----------



## Jawed

rob watts said:


> Now this was before I re-worked the WTA algorithm, and moved from 8FS to 16FS - both of which was much more important in SQ terms than the tap length.



This seems to be a strong indication that the first stage WTA filter would benefit from being at a higher rate than 16FS. e.g. 64FS.

Which then leads into a question of whether the compute capability of the M scaler FPGA would be better used at, say 64FS? Or even 256FS? Where's the knee of this curve?

At some point WTA and sinc() should produce the same coefficients within the constraints of your processing precision, shouldn't they?

When talking about the accuracy of coefficients, there's a severe problem with the count of coefficients involved, since addition is not generally commutative in computing without coding a huge number of sacrificial bits. An irony here is that the higher the upsampling factor used, the more accurately is each sample computed from the same count of coefficients - since each sample is the result of less multiply-adds, the loss of accuracy due to the lack of commutativity is lower 

Which makes me wonder whether this accuracy improvement is a factor in the better sound of 16FS versus 8FS that you discovered in DAVE development.

Performing the multiply-adds in ascending order of coefficient magnitude should improve accuracy. Or, this is a slower algorithm with built-in correction tracking at each addition:

http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html#1262

Now playing: Leslie Winer - 5


----------



## GryphonGuy

*The Apparent Chord Electronics Big Picture From A Humble Consumer*
  
 Guys, before I summarise my perspective of what Chord appears to be offering us, there is a bit of theory (yawn!) to be said and I think Rob has already stated something similar. But basically, the human hearing resolution is somewhere around 384kHz and is thought to be outstripped by 768kHz samples. So any analogue audio being digitised accurately at 768kHz should be able to be decoded back to analogue with no theoretical differences that we can detect with our hearing system.
  
 First up, Chord has made us a DAC and pre-amp in one box called the DAVE. Arguably a state-of-the-art DAC that certainly rocks my world with whatever genre of music I ask it to decode into analogue music.
  
 Chord has announced a digital audio box (in the traditional digital audio sense meaning no new USB stuff) that will add CD playback and other traditional digital audio sources to be up-sampled into the super-duper digital signal ready for a DAC. There is a designed synergy between the new digital audio box and DAVE in that together, when using the S/PDIF protocol over the BNC terminated Coax cables they will perform better than if just used singularly (blu2 without DAVE or DAVE without blu2).
  
 So the traditional digital audio signals are catered for and according to reports of the Blu2 + DAVE synergy, sound stupendously realistic and are awe inspiring. We even have the designer on record saying that the increase in SQ by this synergy was just not expected.
  
 We are also promised Davina, a 768kHz ADC box with USB capabilities and the M-Scaler technology that is in Blu2. Given that no affordable or mass-market software exists to record an ADC signal from Davina at 768kHz, the purpose of Davina MUST be to plug in analogue devices (like a Phono pre-amp, for example) that will digitise the analogue signal in real-time beyond the resolution of human hearing so that when the combo of Davina and DAVE are used, the sound SHOULD theoretically be identical to the sound that the phono pre-amp would have made in an all analogue audio system.
  
 So analogue audio signals (and USB audio) seem to be catered for.
  
 Then in the future as well there is mention of a digital amp after DAVE that will drive the speakers of an audio system.
  
 So it appears to me from the snippets of information emanating from Chord, that it is inventing an end-to-end digital stereo system that should, in theory, sound like no other digital audio system and cater for pure analogue audio as well.
  
*A marvellous adventure and venture for the boys at Chord and one which I hope they will be very successful and suck some more money out of my thinning wallet.*
  
 Just my thoughts on why Chord is doing what it is doing and why we as consumers should probably sit back and wait for the resources of Chord to deliver on what appears to be a grand vision of a totally digital audio system that behaves like a purist analogue audio system.
  
 Cheers
 GG


----------



## icebear

rob watts said:


> .... *In practice the classical recordings that give the most improvements to me seem to be 16 bit 44.1 from the 1960's* - and I am sure this is down to the recording techniques and optimised equipment that Decca and Mercury used at the time, rather than the file format. Modern recordings don't have the timbre variations or the ability to portray the speed and power and sheer impact of the best of the 1960's recordings.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 I totally agree that these "golden era" Mercury and Decca recordings sound fantastic, they have been able to capture the sound of the concert hall not just the individual instruments. You get the impression of the true Klangkörper, the orchestra as a unified body to produce the sound, yet still you can hear a tiny triangle way back in the last row. I totally enjoy a lot of these recordings with my current equipment.
  
 I just can't make any sense of the first part of the paragraph
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 If a remastering has been done using 16/44 and put on to a CD, can this possibly sound better with Blu2/Dave up scaling/filtering than a new remaster using better technique going back at the original master tapes- if at all still possible. How can recalculating the 0s and 1s make it sound better?


----------



## icebear

gryphonguy said:


> ....
> We are also promised Davina, a 768kHz ADC box with USB capabilities and the M-Scaler technology that is in Blu2. Given that no affordable or mass-market software exists to record an ADC signal from Davina at 768kHz, the purpose of Davina MUST be to plug in analogue devices (like a Phono pre-amp, for example) that will digitise the analogue signal in real-time beyond the resolution of human hearing so that when the combo of Davina and DAVE are used, *the sound SHOULD theoretically be identical to the sound that the phono pre-amp would have made in an all analogue audio system.*
> ..... Cheers
> GG


 
  
 ?? So why not just plug the phono preamp into the power amp directly


----------



## EVOLVIST

andrewold said:


> Sure "You do not need to use the ADC function" of the proposed Davina. But you do need to pay for it.
> 
> Unless most of your customers are professional users, nearly every Davina you might sell will have a completely wasted ADC section. Do you think that is sensible? Elegant? Respectful of resources?


 
  
 Andrew, I dig your arguments, because it's always good to see more than one side. However, enlighten me. I don't think you answered, and if you did, I apologize. So if Chord had released a standalone M-Scaler with all of the fancy IOs, with a $9500 USD price tag - never marketing the Blu2 - wpuld you have balked at the price for 1 million taps?
  
 Personally, for the life of me I can't figure out why USB wasn't included in the Blu2, especially since it is the industry standard these days. But hey, that's just me...and at the moment, that's why I'm not even close to buying a Blu2. It's not the principle. I don't want a converter in the way, no matter how good it is, or how much it costs.


----------



## Hermitsden

Mojo ideas:
 "Hugo2 will have its own matching unit with additional desk top features of course."
  
 Since it's a desktop add-on, is it possible to include a mini-Mscaler to super-charge the sound quality of Hugo2?


----------



## maxh22

hermitsden said:


> Mojo ideas:
> "Hugo2 will have its own matching unit with additional desk top features of course."
> 
> *Since it's a desktop add-on, is it possible to include a mini-Mscaler to super-charge the sound quality of Hugo2?*


 
  
 HAHA!!!


----------



## kennyb123

gryphonguy said:


> We are also promised Davina, a 768kHz ADC box with USB capabilities and the M-Scaler technology that is in Blu2.




Has it been confirmed that the DAVINA will have a USB input?


----------



## x RELIC x

icebear said:


> I totally agree that these "golden era" Mercury and Decca recordings sound fantastic, they have been able to capture the sound of the concert hall not just the individual instruments. You get the impression of the true Klangkörper, the orchestra as a unified body to produce the sound, yet still you can hear a tiny triangle way back in the last row. I totally enjoy a lot of these recordings with my current equipment.
> 
> I just can't make any sense of the first part of the paragraph
> If a remastering has been done using 16/44 and put on to a CD, can this possibly sound better with Blu2/Dave up scaling/filtering than a new remaster using better technique going back at the original master tapes- if at all still possible. *How can recalculating the 0s and 1s make it sound better?*




Fundamentally the 0's and 1's simply represent a _sample_ of the original continuous data (analogue). Digital (sampled data) is a small portion of the original and the goal of the DAC is to recalculate the missing information, not really recalculate the original samples, to get back to the continuous analogue data. Filling the gaps so to speak. So, when there is less of the original samples, with more 'gaps', those digital files will benefit the most with the better scaler/DAC filling the gaps. 

This may be especially true for well recorded older music, which may have better preserved cues from the venue/instruments, where the few samples are less altered compared to the modern production/mastering process.


----------



## EVOLVIST

x relic x said:


> This may be especially true for well recorded older music, which may have better preserved cues from the venue/instruments, where the few samples are less altered compared to the modern production/mastering process.


 
 Define "modern," though. It's really the heavy-handed mastering that we've used since the mid-60s that has taken away from recorded music. Now, when I say "taken away," it's a double edged sword, really. Today's modern mastering really came out of EMI with the Beatles, and without those sounds music would not have moved forward like it has. Put on any Beatles' recording and compare that with what Deram (Decca) was doing in that same time, like The Moody Blues _Days of Future Passed_ and David Bowie's first self titled album. There was a crossroads, and studio became the playground, as opposed to the simple canvass.
  
 Classical? It's never really suffered from heavy mastering - and I'm not talking about this super-compressed dynamically compromised mastering, which started in the early 90s - some of my favorite music to test new gear on is tracks like Prince's "Controversy" because of it's mix of analog and digital instruments, or Metallica's "Battery," in that it's distorted but very articulate, but all very well-recorded music. I think with any genre it comes down to how well it was mastered, or the lack thereof. God, there's so many factors.
  
 I'll give a perfect example. I probably own 8 versions of each of The Doors studio albums, maybe more in some cases. Just recently, in 2013, Analog Productions "re-mastered" the whole catalog. Okay, what have we got here? Vocals, drums, guitar, bass and keyboards, mostly with minimal overdubs, so really, there was no reason for any of the previous masterings to sound muddy or wonky, unless it was recorded that way. Lo and behold, Analog Productions put out what was essentially flat transfers, with only minimal balancing to make sure one track was not louder than the other. It was a revelation! The albums sound exactly like the sparse instruments would dictate they should sound. Unbelievable. No overtly conflicting frequencies. All instruments in their own space. It almost made me want to cry when hearing these through my DAVE and Focal Utopias.
  
 I feel as though I'm babbling, but really, I think it boils down to 16-bits is way enough to capture pretty much anything, no matter the genre, style, as long as the recording is handled as well as it possibly can be. I cite rock examples, because those are the most difficult to record right due to amplified instruments. It can either be sublime or crap. There is of course, a middle ground, see...most of the rest, pre-1992 or so.
  
 Yeah, 1 million taps and a little of Rob's magick? I don't know how much closer we're going to get to the original analog sound of most of the music I listen to from let's say, 1952 to 1992.


----------



## Mojo ideas

miketlse said:


> The Davina receives the most mentions, so I presume that it is the next in the pipeline.
> 
> The digital amp receives occasional mentions, but maybe that is because Rob has less involvement in the development (I think that @Mojo ideas
> was the key actor in previous amps, so maybe he has the greater input into the digital amp - sorry if my memory has been fallible on this topic).


 No that's not the case at all Rob is the prime mover in the digital amp Design I'm strictly an analogue and power supply designer. I'll lay claim to the new TToby Amp that's designed to go with the Hugo TT but not the other stuff that's Robs domain


----------



## x RELIC x

EVOLVIST, clearly I just mentioned it _may_ be affected by modern mastering techniques, being it seems a lot of the current popular music is more concerned with levelling every instrument to the max and adding effects to alter the sound rather than taking care to preserve the musical performance, if it even exists in the first place.

You've brought some great examples to the table that I would agree with. My whole point is that there is a large segment of music today, more than historically, that I see really no benefit of using the DAVE, or any DAC combined with the Mscaler, regardless of the bit depth or sampling rate, so for that segment of music it's a moot conversation.


----------



## Rob Watts

kennyb123 said:


> gryphonguy said:
> 
> 
> > We are also promised Davina, a 768kHz ADC box with USB capabilities and the M-Scaler technology that is in Blu2.
> ...


 
 Absolutely. And optical TX/RX, dual BNC inputs, dual BNC outputs. The USB can simultaneously receive and transmit with different sample rates.


----------



## EVOLVIST

x relic x said:


> EVOLVIST, clearly I just mentioned it _may_ be affected by modern mastering techniques, being it seems a lot of the current popular music is more concerned with levelling every instrument to the max and adding effects to alter the sound rather than taking care to preserve the musical performance, if it even exists in the first place.
> 
> You've brought some great examples to the table that I would agree with. My whole point is that there is a large segment of music today, more than historically, that I see really no benefit of using the DAVE, or any DAC combined with the Mscaler, regardless of the bit depth or sampling rate, so for that segment of music it's a moot conversation.




Yeah, yeah, I wasn't being contentious; I simply wanted to add or jot down some of my thoughts and experiences with DAVE and without. 

In a recent post I had subscribed to the belief that crap in/crap out with the DAVE or any DAC for that matter, but only a recent case of a highly fuxed-with studio album did the DAVE actually de-muddy the recording. Not entirely, but some sort of combination of magic happened that has not been the norm by any means. It is The Kinks "Something Else" album. Anything that came out of Pye studios from that time sounded gross. 

Anyway, it sort of flies in the face of everything else I wrote in the quoted post. I guess there is just some hidden "air" in the recording. Or, is it really contrary given that the closer we get to 1 million taps that hidden music is revealed? It's been hinted at by more than one poster, and I believe where Rob said they heard the underground train more pronounced with 1 million. 

What it doesn't fly in the face of, however, is that this music I speak of is still 16-bit. If there's all of this hidden information there, then wow! Yeah, it was still highly jacked with in the studio, but maybe now the thrill is hearing more clearly the jacked up bits. *shrug*


----------



## analogmusic

Will Davina use the same FGPA as Blu 2?


----------



## Mavwong

To Dear John and Rob,
  
 All I ask is add the great great USB input you had done in Dave, to Blue 2, it will make us who stream or connect to server owner a better options than spend yet another thousands to get a USB to spdif converter.
  
 Of course, stand alone M scaller with USB input is way to go and I hope one day it still would be a reality.


----------



## analogmusic

mavwong said:


> To Dear John and Rob,
> 
> All I ask is add the great great USB input you had done in Dave, to Blue 2, it will make us who stream or connect to server owner a better options than spend yet another thousands to get a USB to spdif converter.
> 
> Of course, stand alone M scaller with USB input is way to go and I hope one day it still would be a reality.


 
  
 Why thousands?
  
 There is a great one from http://www.audiophilleo.com/Home/Buy
  
 579 dollars.


----------



## Clive101

M scaller with USB input and output to Dave would be my ideal preference.
  
 No converter, less interconnects and hopefully better transparency...?


----------



## miketlse

mojo ideas said:


> No that's not the case at all Rob is the prime mover in the digital amp Design I'm strictly an analogue and power supply designer. I'll lay claim to the new TToby Amp that's designed to go with the Hugo TT but not the other stuff that's Robs domain


 
  
 Sorry my memory was playing tricks after all - my subconcious must have interpreted your responsibility for the TToby, to apply to the previous amps as well.


----------



## Rob Watts

analogmusic said:


> Will Davina use the same FGPA as Blu 2?


 
 Actually Blu 2 design came from Davina, as this was started before Blu 2. That's why it was an easy project (ignoring the code) as it was just a modified Davina. And the code is being used with Davina in M scaler mode. I needed an ultra powerful FPGA to do sample rate conversion properly; and the M scaler mode was always a feature of Davina.
  
 Rob


----------



## AndrewOld

evolvist said:


> Andrew, I dig your arguments, because it's always good to see more than one side. However, enlighten me. I don't think you answered, and if you did, I apologize. So if Chord had released a standalone M-Scaler with all of the fancy IOs, with a $9500 USD price tag - never marketing the Blu2 - wpuld you have balked at the price for 1 million taps?
> 
> Personally, for the life of me I can't figure out why USB wasn't included in the Blu2, especially since it is the industry standard these days. But hey, that's just me...and at the moment, that's why I'm not even close to buying a Blu2. It's not the principle. I don't want a converter in the way, no matter how good it is, or how much it costs.


 

 Good question. I'd've had to think about it for sure, because it is a lot of money, as was my DAVE. But I paid for my DAVE gladly (and the Hugo and the TT before it.) so it certainly isn't unthinkable that, subject to audition, I would have bought it. But given the Blu2 doesn't make sense to me, nor does the ADC in the mooted Davina, and given that Rob himself has said that " Had I known in advance that 1M taps was hugely important, then there is no way we would have launched M scaler technology as a CD player." then I am going to hold out and hope and argue for a stand alone M Scaler and would reasonably expect that it would be somewhat less than £8k. DAVE customers have helped build this business, have helped finance the journey, and have a right to expect well engineered solutions. A CD player that you don't use is unacceptably wasteful, and unnecessarily costly. As is an ADC. Fair enough there are commercial and historic reasons for the current offerings, but I am just not going to be the last person on the planet to buy a high-end CD player! I will possibly consider a Davina though. But I would much prefer a straight M Scaler, because there is no good engineering reason why it should not exist. And, rather than looking backward at the legacy medium of CD, hopefully Chord will look to the future and ensure that it is consistent with their future plans for streaming  It might even be that the M Scaler will inspire Rob to revisit the DAVE, maybe there is more work to do there also. Don't know. Time will tell. I appreciate everyone's frankness on the forum. If enough people express their clear preferences then maybe we'll get the solutions we want.


----------



## Mojo ideas

miketlse said:


> Sorry my memory was playing tricks after all - my subconcious must have interpreted your responsibility for the TToby, to apply to the previous amps as well.


 Yes I've designed all our amps but none are digital yet,


----------



## Kamil21

andrewold said:


> I appreciate everyone's frankness on the forum. If enough people express their clear preferences then maybe we'll get the solutions we want.




So here's my wish list.. I've just purchased a Dave after figuring out it was a true upgrade to my 8yr old Uber dac, .. the rest is preamp and active speakers. That's usually how long I keep a piece of equipment, and how long I save up for a new one.

Now that I understand Dave, and Chord's philosophy, I'm smitten. I want close to live music in my room and am OCD about it. Dave and Davina give me the upgrade path I hope for and I just hope it is not obsolete before another 7years. So Davina gives me a chance to hopefully also have an analog preamplifier through it's A/D -D/A function that I hope will beat all other analog preamplifier. 

I see Blu2 as a cd transport attached to just a demonstrator of the MScaler , so I'll wait for Davina, but I sure hope the wait is short and worthy of my expectation!


----------



## adyc

rob watts said:


> Actually Blu 2 design came from Davina, as this was started before Blu 2. That's why it was an easy project (ignoring the code) as it was just a modified Davina. And the code is being used with Davina in M scaler mode. I needed an ultra powerful FPGA to do sample rate conversion properly; and the M scaler mode was always a feature of Davina.
> 
> Rob




For the life of me, I really don't understand why USB is omitted in Blu2 if Blu2 is derived from Davina. This also gives me hope that it should be easy to produce Blu2 with USB Input.


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> Actually Blu 2 design came from Davina, as this was started before Blu 2. That's why it was an easy project (ignoring the code) as it was just a modified Davina. And the code is being used with Davina in M scaler mode. I needed an ultra powerful FPGA to do sample rate conversion properly; and the M scaler mode was always a feature of Davina.
> 
> Rob


 

 What do you think of the SQ of Davina / Blu 2 through Hugo 2 instead of using DAVE, is it a waist of money if you only want to use the M-Scaler 500 taps with Hugo 2 for example?
 Got a few customers who have ask me this question during the week.
  
  
 Have an great evening
  
 / Fredrik


----------



## Weatherlight

New HF vid about CES 2017


[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/hLFJBuX1zj0[/VIDEO]


----------



## PhiQuanTu

Hugo two.....I'm ready for you


----------



## romaz

From HiFi+
  
 http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/chris-martens-best-of-ces-2017-traditional-two-channel-audio/?utm_source=Default+Hi-Fi%2B+List&utm_campaign=85a7ae8e05-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_01_24&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ff6dfd0295-85a7ae8e05-161902949


----------



## miketlse

mojo ideas said:


> Yes I've designed all our amps but none are digital yet,


 
 Aha, that explains things - I was accidently lumping the Chord analogue and digital amps together.


----------



## jlbrach

andrewold said:


> Good question. I'd've had to think about it for sure, because it is a lot of money, as was my DAVE. But I paid for my DAVE gladly (and the Hugo and the TT before it.) so it certainly isn't unthinkable that, subject to audition, I would have bought it. But given the Blu2 doesn't make sense to me, nor does the ADC in the mooted Davina, and given that Rob himself has said that " Had I known in advance that 1M taps was hugely important, then there is no way we would have launched M scaler technology as a CD player." then I am going to hold out and hope and argue for a stand alone M Scaler and would reasonably expect that it would be somewhat less than £8k. DAVE customers have helped build this business, have helped finance the journey, and have a right to expect well engineered solutions. A CD player that you don't use is unacceptably wasteful, and unnecessarily costly. As is an ADC. Fair enough there are commercial and historic reasons for the current offerings, but I am just not going to be the last person on the planet to buy a high-end CD player! I will possibly consider a Davina though. But I would much prefer a straight M Scaler, because there is no good engineering reason why it should not exist. And, rather than looking backward at the legacy medium of CD, hopefully Chord will look to the future and ensure that it is consistent with their future plans for streaming  It might even be that the M Scaler will inspire Rob to revisit the DAVE, maybe there is more work to do there also. Don't know. Time will tell. I appreciate everyone's frankness on the forum. If enough people express their clear preferences then maybe we'll get the solutions we want.


 
 I currently have over 5K of CD's and also a hard drive of about 800GB's of FLAC that I use to listen to my Dave for the most part......I do believe there are quite a few people with rather large CD collections out there who might well spring for a CD solution that enhances their collection dramatically......


----------



## mslatr

A couple of questions for Mojo Ideas:
  
 1) I am interested in the Blu II, but want eventually to go the full route and have the digital amp as well. Would that require a Davina in the chain or will the Dave and Blu II be compatible and will end result be as satisfactory?
  
 2) My BDP2 has a 75 Ohm BNC  SPDIF output, would this allow me to connect into the Blu II without the need for a convertor?
  
 3) From Romaz's prior posts it sounds like the FPGAs in the DAVe are not really doing anything when connected to the Blu II, do you get the benefit of the 1 MM taps if I just had the Blu II and is the Dave essentially just a pre-amp in that setup or does the DAVE contribute some resources/processing? I know Blu II is just a transport, but I don't understand the comment that FPGAs aren't really doing anything.
  
 4) Will the Davina have two USB ports - I know the one it will have is bidirectional, but if I had one connected to a streamer and another to connect to a computer or other peripheral to capture the stream to record that might be handy.
  
 I have a few more, but don't want to ask too much at once.
  
 Thanks,
  
 PS. I have read the other Chord threads and am shocked at some comments the team have received on other products on recent announcements. I appreciate the time and effort you guys go through just to satisfy this tiny niche market of highly demanding OCD types!


----------



## Mavwong

drop the options box, with purepower is thousand, convert to SGD plus taxes, ard 1.7k.
  
  
  
 Quote:


analogmusic said:


> Why thousands?
> 
> There is a great one from http://www.audiophilleo.com/Home/Buy
> 
> 579 dollars.


----------



## analogmusic

just trying to help, of course you can search the market for other USB SPDIF or just wait for DAVINA....
  
 or just use Dave and enjoy music today, which is what I am doing..... music first...? What did you listen to before Dave was invented?


----------



## highfell

andrewold said:


> Good question. I'd've had to think about it for sure, because it is a lot of money, as was my DAVE. But I paid for my DAVE gladly (and the Hugo and the TT before it.) so it certainly isn't unthinkable that, subject to audition, I would have bought it. But given the Blu2 doesn't make sense to me, nor does the ADC in the mooted Davina, and given that Rob himself has said that " Had I known in advance that 1M taps was hugely important, then there is no way we would have launched M scaler technology as a CD player." then I am going to hold out and hope and argue for a stand alone M Scaler and would reasonably expect that it would be somewhat less than £8k. *DAVE customers have helped build this business, have helped finance the journey, and have a right to expect well engineered solutions. A CD player that you don't use is unacceptably wasteful, and unnecessarily costly. As is an ADC. Fair enough there are commercial and historic reasons for the current offerings, but I am just not going to be the last person on the planet to buy a high-end CD player! I will possibly consider a Davina though. But I would much prefer a straight M Scaler, because there is no good engineering reason why it should not exist. And, rather than looking backward at the legacy medium of CD, hopefully Chord will look to the future and ensure that it is consistent with their future plans for streaming  It might even be that the M Scaler will inspire Rob to revisit the DAVE, maybe there is more work to do there also. Don't know. Time will tell. I appreciate everyone's frankness on the forum. If enough people express their clear preferences then maybe we'll get the solutions we want.
> *


*


I disagree wholeheartedly. I don't think you have any such rights, but the nature of your recent posts clearly show you do believe that.

Chord continue to evolve and improve their products in an fabulous way. And in doing so they have found a way not to disadvantage existing Dave owners

But it is up to them how they develop their new product designs and we can choose to buy them or not!

Too many people in this world believe they must be entitled to "things" and too many people on this thread having been behaving like spoiled children.*


----------



## JaZZ

Well said, _highfell!_
  
 I'm thankful for Chord's product strategy and Rob's invaluable contribution. I don't expect any manufacturer to build music reproduction gear out of pure philanthropy. It's a lucky coincidence that Chord's strategy for making money matches so well with the sonic ideals of many of us audiophiles. Not least because the main protagonists are audiophiles themselves. But there's no obligation from their part towards the customers except for fairness and good business practice. They will know themselves what there is to do to keep their customers satisfied. That doesn't exclude an open ear for wishes and suggestions.
  
 Yeah, DAVE itself is actually good enough – for me. I don't think I need more realism and tonal fidelity than now, particularly from the pairing with my modified and equalized HE1000.
  
 Of course, if the future brings an affordable upgrade... But I'm not in a hurry.


----------



## EVOLVIST

You know, as goofy as these may sound, I had the thought today that I could just go back to burning a lot of CDs like I did back in the day. Blanks are cheap af. And how long does it take to burn one? Just a few minutes. 

I bet one would really be able to tell the difference then between using an adapter and spinning a disc. It's a curious thought.


----------



## astrostar59

jazz said:


> I don't think I need more realism and tonal fidelity than now, particularly from the pairing with my modified and equalized HE1000.


 
 Interesting. Can I ask how you are equalising the HP Is it with a software plugin or something else?


----------



## Mojo ideas

highfell said:


> I disagree wholeheartedly. I don't think you have any such rights, but the nature of your recent posts clearly show you do believe that.
> 
> Chord continue to evolve and improve their products in an fabulous way. And in doing so they have found a way not to disadvantage existing Dave owners
> 
> ...


 Sometimes for us at Chord we decide that we want to have a new core technology like many of Robs developments that go unseen and not talked too much about and lie buried within his latest FPGA. However some are viewed by us to be statigically important and will be used over coming years across several new products. Therefore to us it doesn't really matter in which design they are first developed as we now have that core tech working and available to spin in which ever way Rob and we please. Such was the case with Robs new Million Tap M Scaler. This was for Rob about a solid year of Programming About half a million lines of code. You might ask why was he prepared to do this? He did it , simply because it gives him the possibility of putting his , at the time , un feasible college dream filter into a number of new designs to be used along side Our Dave Dac. You might ask why didn't we wait and put it in to Dave. We couldn't then and still can't because of the huge number of active gates, This means there are huge switching currents that are fine to have running around solely in the digital domain but not amoungst Dave sensitive mixed digital and analogue signals. The same phylosopyhy can be said for the technologies within Poly. Once fully proven these technologies will most likely be used across quite a few products in the next few years,


----------



## JaZZ

astrostar59 said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think I need more realism and tonal fidelity than now, particularly from the pairing with my modified and equalized HE1000.
> ...


 
  
 I use the equalizer of my FiiO X5 II (my main source):         Its reproduction in foobar2000 (xnor graphic equalizer) looks like this (not sure about the degree of conformance, though, as I haven't rigorously tested it):
  
               
  
 (Link: HE1000 modification)


----------



## astrostar59

jazz said:


> astrostar59 said:
> 
> 
> > jazz said:
> ...


 
 Interesting settings. It looks like a major adjustment, with a big sloping off for the bass and a big dip in the mid treble. If it works that is good. I haver so found I need a 2dB change max on my 009s. It doesn't sound like a big amount 2dB but makes the 009 sound right to my taste. It rids it of the slight lower treble emphasis that hits you on female vocals and electric guitars for example.


----------



## JaZZ

Interestingly the bass has much more punch that way, extension seems even more pronounced, and the whole headphone sounds much faster and more energetic. Resolution has made a big jump as well, primarily due to the smoothed-out and extended high-frequency response. The foam modification also plays its part.
  
 And synergy with the DAVE is excellent.
  
 I almost forgot to the mention the Silver Dragon cable, which is essential (not exactly the Siver Dragon, but the cable upgrade).


----------



## Hubert H

John, will there be any code changes to Dave following on from Robs recent developments?
  
 Also, can we expect to see Davina by the year end? I'd rather wait if she's not too far away.


----------



## EVOLVIST

mojo ideas said:


> Sometimes for us at Chord we decide that we want to have a new core technology like many of Robs developments that go unseen and not talked too much about and lie buried within his latest FPGA. However some are viewed by us to be statigically important and will be used over coming years across several new products. Therefore to us it doesn't really matter in which design they are first developed as we now have that core tech working and available to spin in which ever way Rob and we please. Such was the case with Robs new Million Tap M Scaler. This was for Rob about a solid year of Programming About half a million lines of code. You might ask why was he prepared to do this? He did it , simply because it gives him the possibility of putting his , at the time , un feasible college dream filter into a number of new designs to be used along side Our Dave Dac. You might ask why didn't we wait and put it in to Dave. We couldn't then and still can't because of the huge number of active gates, This means there are huge switching currents that are fine to have running around solely in the digital domain but not amoungst Dave sensitive mixed digital and analogue signals. The same phylosopyhy can be said for the technologies within Poly. Once fully proven these technologies will most likely be used across quite a few products in the next few years,




Thank you, John. As always a pleasure and brilliant insight into my favorite company. I do think that the burning question above all else, however, is why no USB with the Blu2, given that USB has become the standard, and even something that Rob has said many times that he thinks quite highly of? 

I mean, the USB implementation with the DAVE is second to none. 

Just a question.


----------



## analogmusic

Really now curious about the Mscaler and Dave how does it sound with Rock music....
  
 I must say though, that I still love listening to music with Mojo in my car.
  
 I suppose I can now see the attraction of Poly...


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Me too. I would be interested too as to whether Rob could improve Dave with a software/firmware update Using what he has learnt from the Blu2 M Scaler. The more I think about it the more I am not surprised that the latter product has a significant improvement on the overall SQ. we are talking about fine resolution here, marrying AD back to DA and the resulting focus. Think about a manual lens in photography and then think of how much focus comes from the last 1/8th inch twist of the lens. It's profound.


----------



## jelt2359

daveredref-iii said:


> Me too. I would be interested too as to whether Rob could improve Dave with a software/firmware update Using what he has learnt from the Blu2 M Scaler. The more I think about it the more I am not surprised that the latter product has a significant improvement on the overall SQ. we are talking about fine resolution here, marrying AD back to DA and the resulting focus. Think about a manual lens in photography and then think of how much focus comes from the last 1/8th inch twist of the lens. It's profound.




I'm guessing that this is coming. Surprised that no one else has caught onto this yet, but we know that USB is the dave's best input because it's galvanically isolated and reclocked. Optical is second. In last place is BNC and aes depending on cables. 

The only way to get data from the blu2 or davina to the dave is via BNC, the dave's worst input. Which doesn't make sense. So I'm guessing that the dave will have a firmware update coming to put the BNC on par with the USB input. 

Also having a choice of Hugo/dave/mojo filters will be nice. 

Finally, the update may make it such that hf filter on and off has no difference for redbook.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I think you will find that the only superiority USB and Optical have is in regard to being galvanic isolation. The Coax does not have the benefit of it on the Dave and optical has no issue anyway. Take a top quality Coax and it is easily a match for the other two in fact I prefer Coax to optical still. The Blu2 solves this issue anyway as it need only be isolated at one end.


----------



## jelt2359

rob watts said:


> *Absolutely not when using USB, as the system clock is the source of all data timing - the USB is locked to the FPGA.*
> 
> *For asynchronous inputs (all of the others) the digital phase lock loop (DPLL) steps in, and together with a small buffer, re-locks and re-times the data to the FPGA clock. This is how incoming jitter is removed from an asynchronous source.*


 
  
  


rob watts said:


> Using another galvanic isolator won't help and will probably make things worse. No doubt other companies will offer "no compromise" USB solutions, but don't believe it.
> 
> Frankly I think you are worrying too much; 99% of the RF noise problem is removed currently by Dave; it is just the last 1% where one would want to remove the power to the source. And a single jitter-bug gets you too 99.75%. *If you go with optical, you for sure will eliminate all RF; but its not quite as good as the USB, as this has zero jitter/timing issues as the clock comes from Dave.* Before galvanic isolation, optical was so much better than USB. Detail resolution and flow is slightly better than optical.


 
  
 Can't say I totally understand, but it seems to me that the advantage of the USB input on Dave goes beyond galvanic isolation.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Perhaps you are right jelt. It's not something I was aware of. My RR3 reclocks and regimes the data anyway, though I thought Dave did this to every feed.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jelt2359 said:


> Can't say I totally understand, but it seems to me that the advantage of the USB input on Dave goes beyond galvanic isolation.




And the above quotes are the reasons why I can't fathom the notion of the Blu2 not having USB considering Rob's fantastic work with USB. 

What would be the best connection from Blu2 to DAVE? USB, right?

Well, I suppose I'm beating dead horse, though. No matter in the end. I would have bought a Blu2 had it had a simple USB IOs.


----------



## lovethatsound

daveredref-iii said:


> I think you will find that the only superiority USB and Optical have is in regard to being galvanic isolation. The Coax does not have the benefit of it on the Dave and optical has no issue anyway. Take a top quality Coax and it is easily a match for the other two in fact I prefer Coax to optical still. The Blu2 solves this issue anyway as it need only be isolated at one end.


Being galvanic isolated is a big advantage,and also being galvanic isolated both ends is better than just one end,its a pity that optical hasn't been developed more in my opinion.☺


----------



## jelt2359

evolvist said:


> And the above quotes are the reasons why I can't fathom the notion of the Blu2 not having USB considering Rob's fantastic work with USB.
> 
> What would be the best connection from Blu2 to DAVE? USB, right?
> 
> Well, I suppose I'm beating dead horse, though. No matter in the end. I would have bought a Blu2 had it had a simple USB IOs.


 
 There are two different types of USB requests here (as you put it, IO).
 1) USB *Input* to the M Scaler (which could be Blu2, Davina, or another thing altogether) is useful because plenty of us have already invested in great USB sources as a result of these posts about the Dave.
 2) USB *Output* from the M Scaler to the Dave because the Dave's USB input is its best one. However, if the data *must *be transferred by dual BNC because there's just not enough bandwidth on USB or some other reason, then.... Time for a firmware update. Maybe it's finally possible for the BNC's clock to also be taken from the FGPA- just like it does today with USB inputs


----------



## EVOLVIST

jelt2359 said:


> There are two different types of USB requests here (as you put it, IO).
> 1) USB *Input* to the M Scaler (which could be Blu2, Davina, or another thing altogether) is useful because plenty of us have already invested in great USB sources as a result of these posts about the Dave.
> 2) USB *Output* from the M Scaler to the Dave because the Dave's USB input is its best one. However, if the data *must* be transferred by dual BNC because there's just not enough bandwidth on USB or some other reason, then.... Time for a firmware update. Maybe it's finally possible for the BNC's clock to also be taken from the FGPA- just like it does today with USB inputs




Precisely. The absence of all USB is perplexing. But, I mean, maybe there are good reasons. *shrug* 

I guess I shouldn't worry about it.


----------



## Sonic77

evolvist said:


> Precisely. The absence of all USB is perplexing. But, I mean, maybe there are good reasons. *shrug*
> 
> I guess I shouldn't worry about it.




Davina was designed first with a usb connection then taken out for the Blu Mk II, don't know why? Oh wait i think John said that they wanted to utilize the old case, i think? Maybe someone from Chord could clear that up.
Using a usb to bnc converter leads to a step down in sound quality with Dave.


----------



## romaz

daveredref-iii said:


> I think you will find that the only superiority USB and Optical have is in regard to being galvanic isolation. The Coax does not have the benefit of it on the Dave and optical has no issue anyway. Take a top quality Coax and it is easily a match for the other two in fact I prefer Coax to optical still. The Blu2 solves this issue anyway as it need only be isolated at one end.


 
  
 Both USB and Toslink are galvanically isolated.  USB is superior to _all_ other inputs because it is the only input that is synchronously tied to DAVE's clock.  The other inputs have to go through DPLL first which according to Rob results in a small but noticeable degradation in sound quality.  Having personally tested all of DAVE's inputs, none of them sound horrible but USB does sound best.  Toslink is 2nd best because of its RF isolation.  With AES and SPDIF, the quality of the cables used and its ability to reject RF becomes especially important.  Despite my best efforts, I have not succeeded in getting BNC/SPDIF to sound as good as USB or Toslink but I am still waiting for my prototype USB-to-SPDIF converter to arrive.  I also have a High Fidelity Cables SPDIF cable coming in.  
  
 Rob has suggested in prior posts that he could synchronously tie the other inputs to DAVE's clock to make them equivalent to USB but this would require a code update.  Hopefully, this will one day happen.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks Romaz I think you may have posted that info earlier. If so thanks for repeating.

I cannot comment on USB but having tried Coaxial, AES and Optical fairly extensively I found Coaxial BNC via Chord Super Aray to be the best. I have tried a number of optical cables and BNC too but I am still not impressed by optical. At first it can sound fine but with the wrong recordings it always falls down with a glassy overlay particularly around 2-6 kHz. I suspect it is when playing masters that were created using optical cables and the duplication of optical in the chain highlights a weakness in the protocol. It disappears when I change back to BNC. That's how I hear it anyways. Trust me when I say I wanted to go the optical route. It's a lot cheaper than a £2k BNC cable.


----------



## romaz

daveredref-iii said:


> Thanks Romaz I think you may have posted that info earlier. If so thanks for repeating.
> 
> I cannot comment on USB but having tried Coaxial, AES and Optical fairly extensively I found Coaxial BNC via Chord Super Aray to be the best. I have tried a number of optical cables and BNC too but I am still not impressed by optical. At first it can sound fine but with the wrong recordings it always falls down with a glassy overlay particularly around 2-6 kHz. I suspect it is when playing masters that were created using optical cables and the duplication of optical in the chain highlights a weakness in the protocol. It disappears when I change back to BNC. That's how I hear it anyways. Trust me when I say I wanted to go the optical route. It's a lot cheaper than a £2k BNC cable.


 
 I think it's clear you have an exceptional BNC cable.  I am hoping I can somehow get BNC to sound better than USB (not sure if it's possible) but it would make the decision to go with Blu 2 easier.


----------



## Sonic77

romaz said:


> I think it's clear you have an exceptional BNC cable.  I am hoping I can somehow get BNC to sound better than USB (not sure if it's possible) but it would make the decision to go with Blu 2 easier.


 
 I hope you are successful, if not I will just wait until a proper solution (1 million taps) for streaming is made by Chord. I can wait, Dave is awesome.


----------



## Hubert H

I used the BLU to Dave prior to getting a laptop for playback and I thought optical was the best sounding too, the metal connections seemed to add glare but I suspect that's due to the BLU being quite leaky as far as electrical noise is concerned.
  
 I was tesing an external DAB aerial next to the hifi a couple of years ago and the Blu killed the signal, easy to prove, switched it off and got a signal. I also had a portable DAB radio connected a few months prior and thought that the reception was bad due my location. Checked again and it was the BLU swamping the signal.


----------



## esimms86

romaz said:


> I think it's clear you have an exceptional BNC cable.  I am hoping I can somehow get BNC to sound better than USB (not sure if it's possible) but it would make the decision to go with Blu 2 easier.




I have to admit that my resolve to wait is weakening here and will probably weaken further if I can find my way to Can Jam NYC to experience Blu2 with Dave in person.

I also wonder if Rob's current demonstration setup is "good enough " such that the delta between usb and BNC might actually be negligible with the pairing of Blu2 and Dave. Roy, I know how tenacious you are but your experimentation with various BNC solutions has the obvious limitation of being carried out sans an M scalar. The ultimate test, of course, would be Blu2 with BNC vs. Davina with USB. But then, once Davina arrives the point of such an experiment might be essentially moot.

From Chord's standpoint, while they are happy to sell Blu2 to Dave owners, their real intent is to (1)get the M scalar out on the market as soon as possible given their excitement about the sonic improvements(logistically this of course means the Blu2), (2)sell the Blu2 largely to the same market for the original Blu, i.e., CD enthusiasts, and (3)take the long view such that Davina is in the pipeline(after all, a front panel design away from being geared up for manufacturing per Rob) for ADC/DDC fans AND Dave owners. A standalone M scalar has not been confirmed and also remember that Davina started out as Rob's demonstration product (which it still is).

P.S.
- It strikes me that Rob could do the Blu2/Dave vs. Davina/Dave comparison "today" using a Davina prototype.


----------



## a1uc

Anyone use the Sonore Sonicorbiter SE with Dave ? I'm only looking for using Roon .
I was using a Antipodes DX with the Dave but moved that to my 
2 ch system so now I need a Roon device for the Dave .

Choices : 

Aries
Rendu 
Sonore Sonicorbiter SE


----------



## yellowblue

a1uc said:


> Anyone use the Sonore Sonicorbiter SE with Dave ? I'm only looking for using Roon .
> I was using a Antipodes DX with the Dave but moved that to my
> 2 ch system so now I need a Roon device for the Dave .
> 
> ...


 
 MicroRendu or SOtM smS-200 are the most favorable choices just now (there are also rumours about a MicroRendu 2). But you get a lot of benefit from using them with a good PSU like the LPS-1 or a Paul Hynes.
 And then you even should look here:
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/novel-way-massively-improve-sq-sms-200-and-microrendu-31110/
 It´s a long journey but it´s worth it.


----------



## esimms86

I have used both the Sonic Orbiter SE and microRendu with Dave. The sound using the microRendu is substantially better. It honestly would be unfortunate to spend money on Dave and then limit your listening experience with a lesser product such as the SOSE. When I say this I imply no disrespect as Sonore sells both items, with the microRendu as clearly the higher end device.


----------



## a1uc

MicroRendu
 SOtM smS-200
 Aries
  
 I had a MicroRendu awhile back when they first came out but sold it , I also had the Aries a couple of times . Im just trying to pick one which would give me the best performance wit the Dave . All I want to do is use Roon  and stream from my Antipodes , I was not sure if this is all Im looking for which would be the best product .
  
 I have a couple SR5 PSU that I could use also


----------



## a1uc

yellowblue said:


> MicroRendu or SOtM smS-200 are the most favorable choices just now (there are also rumours about a MicroRendu 2). But you get a lot of benefit from using them with a good PSU like the LPS-1 or a Paul Hynes.
> And then you even should look here:
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/novel-way-massively-improve-sq-sms-200-and-microrendu-31110/
> It´s a long journey but it´s worth it.


 

 Thanks


----------



## EVOLVIST

a1uc said:


> Thanks




I use the SonicTransport i5 -> mRendu (powered by LPS-1)-> Curious Cable link -> DAVE. I'm very happy with the results. 

I just ordered a couple of Jitterbugs for schitz & giggles. We'll see how that pans out.


----------



## romaz

esimms86 said:


> I have to admit that my resolve to wait is weakening here and will probably weaken further if I can find my way to Can Jam NYC to experience Blu2 with Dave in person.


 
  
 This is my problem.  Having already heard it, even briefly, it is difficult to ignore what I heard and so it's best sometimes to stay away unless you're prepared for the consequences.  In comparison, DAVE by itself sounded flat, dull and hazy.  I have heard many DACs and have directly compared DAVE against many DACs and never have I heard DAVE brought to its knees like this.  Rob had told me he did some of his testing using his cheap office speakers but he knew that if he could hear large differences with his cheap office speakers, then the difference should be easily greater in a much more resolving setup.  What is exciting for me is that I consider my setup at home with my DAVE directly driving my speakers to be even more resolving than Chord's setup at CES.
   
 Quote:


esimms86 said:


> I also wonder if Rob's current demonstration setup is "good enough " such that the delta between usb and BNC might actually be negligible with the pairing of Blu2 and Dave.


 
  
 This is my thinking, that any delta between USB and BNC will be easily compensated for by the massive change brought about by M-scaler.  Obviously, it would be great to have it all which is why I am exploring the best possible SPDIF sources possible, even if it means using a USB-to-SPDIF converter.  I am still hoping that John will surprise us all and sneak into Blu 2 a USB input at the 11th hour before its release but I have heard nothing to suggest this will happen.
  


esimms86 said:


> Roy, I know how tenacious you are but your experimentation with various BNC solutions has the obvious limitation of being carried out sans an M scalar.


 
  
 You're right.  What I am hearing now with my BNC solutions will almost certainly sound better with the M-scaler because Rob told me Blu2's (and Davina's) DX outputs will be galvanically isolated.  Nonetheless, if I can find a BNC solution that sounds better than USB on my DAVE, then if I move forward with Blu2, I would know it will probably sound even better.
  


esimms86 said:


> The ultimate test, of course, would be Blu2 with BNC vs. Davina with USB. But then, once Davina arrives the point of such an experiment might be essentially moot.


 
  
 If a code update one day happens with DAVE and BNC is equalized to USB, then there should be zero difference with regards to SQ but Rob has stated this difference right now is quite a small difference.  The only advantage USB will still have will be that of higher potential bandwidth (DSD512 or 768kHz PCM).
  
 I'm not sure exactly how Davina will look once it ships except that Rob has indicated it will be in a Choral chassis.  In Blu's favor is how it looks on Chord's stand.  I find it to be quite striking:


----------



## Beolab

romaz said:


> This is my problem.  Having already heard it, even briefly, it is difficult to ignore what I heard and so it's best sometimes to stay away unless you're prepared for the consequences.  In comparison, DAVE by itself sounded flat, dull and hazy.  I have heard many DACs and have directly compared DAVE against many DACs and never have I heard DAVE brought to its knees like this.  Rob had told me he did some of his testing using his cheap office speakers but he knew that if he could hear large differences with his cheap office speakers, then the difference should be easily greater in a much more resolving setup.  What is exciting for me is that I consider my setup at home with my DAVE directly driving my speakers to be even more resolving than Chord's setup at CES.
> 
> This is my thinking, that any delta between USB and BNC will be easily compensated for by the massive change brought about by M-scaler.  Obviously, it would be great to have it all which is why I am exploring the best possible SPDIF sources possible, even if it means using a USB-to-SPDIF converter.  I am still hoping that John will surprise us all and sneak into Blu 2 a USB input at the 11th hour before its release but I have heard nothing to suggest this will happen.
> 
> ...




The DAVINA will to 98% look like the DAVE is my best qualified guessing, with some minor differences.


----------



## icebear

Since this picture (Blu2 in stand) is showing up also here ...
 I posed this question over in the Blu2 thread and that seemed to have killed it (the thread)
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 http://www.head-fi.org/t/831343/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread/15#post_13183214
  
 Anyone ...?


----------



## romaz

icebear said:


> Since this picture (Blu2 in stand) is showing up also here ...
> I posed this question over in the Blu2 thread and that seemed to have killed it (the thread)
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I've never owned the Blu or this stand before and so I can't really comment but the top convertible hatch that closes down on top of the CD does so pretty securely.  I don't think Chord would have brought it to market if their testing revealed that it impacted performance in any way.  During my listening tests at CES where this stand was used, I never questioned the quality of what I was hearing.


----------



## 7ryder

a1uc said:


> MicroRendu
> SOtM smS-200
> Aries
> 
> ...


 
 Aren't Antipodes servers Roon Ready? Assuming the server and your DAVE are within USB cable distance, why would you need a bridge?


----------



## a1uc

7ryder said:


> Aren't Antipodes servers Roon Ready? Assuming the server and your DAVE are within USB cable distance, why would you need a bridge?


 

They are in different rooms and the Antipodes is on my Totaldac setup


----------



## Christer

romaz said:


> Both USB and Toslink are galvanically isolated.  USB is superior to _all_ other inputs because it is the only input that is synchronously tied to DAVE's clock.  The other inputs have to go through DPLL first which according to Rob results in a small but noticeable degradation in sound quality.  Having personally tested all of DAVE's inputs, none of them sound horrible but USB does sound best.  Toslink is 2nd best because of its RF isolation.  With AES and SPDIF, the quality of the cables used and its ability to reject RF becomes especially important.  Despite my best efforts, I have not succeeded in getting BNC/SPDIF to sound as good as USB or Toslink but I am still waiting for my prototype USB-to-SPDIF converter to arrive.  I also have a High Fidelity Cables SPDIF cable coming in.
> 
> Rob has suggested in prior posts that he could synchronously tie the other inputs to DAVE's clock to make them equivalent to USB but this would require a code update.  Hopefully, this will one day happen.


 

 Hi romaz, I saw  you mentioning ethernet  connections as well in one post here. Ethernet seems to be the favoured pro connection used at classical recording sessions judging from what I have seen,both with DSD and DXD pcm ADCs.
 It seems USB2 is only used  in consumer audio products these days.
 Even my first Weiss DAC had faster better Firewire connections  free of the usual USB problems,and now few  if any computers ,have even got USB2 ports any longer.
 Except for  DACs are there really any  new products with USB 2 ports these days?
 I sometimes wonder why the audio industry is stuck with USB 2 when  both the computer and recording  industry has  basically abandoned  USB 2 and even  faster better than USB2  Firewire for  much faster connections?
 What is the logic behind it?
 To me is seems a bit  similar to buying an rbcd downsampled version of an original analogue or hi res digital recording, only to upsample it  in the DAC once again?
 Thus trying to put back as much as possible of the  missing information.
 Why not buy the 24/96 digital transfer of the analogue or the orginal master hi res digital  recording instead and start with fewer gaps to fill  in and repair instead of going back to the obsolete rbcd compromised  format?
 Why buy a Ferrari with a  steam engine?


----------



## lovethatsound

icebear said:


> Since this picture (Blu2 in stand) is showing up also here ...
> I posed this question over in the Blu2 thread and that seemed to have killed it (the thread)
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/831343/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread/15#post_13183214
> 
> Anyone ...?







romaz said:


> I've never owned the Blu or this stand before and so I can't really comment but the top convertible hatch that closes down on top of the CD does so pretty securely.  I don't think Chord would have brought it to market if their testing revealed that it impacted performance in any way.  During my listening tests at CES where this stand was used, I never questioned the quality of what I was hearing.


As a blu owner i can tell you the convertible hatch on the blu is brilliant and their's no need to worry about it at all.


----------



## jelt2359

highfell said:


> I disagree wholeheartedly. I don't think you have any such rights, but the nature of your recent posts clearly show you do believe that.
> 
> Chord continue to evolve and improve their products in an fabulous way. And in doing so they have found a way not to disadvantage existing Dave owners
> 
> ...


 
  
 As I have said many times, the nature of this thread is unique. Most Head-Fi threads are not like this. Those of us making requests here are really telling Chord "we want to give you more money". I don't know about you, but in my line of work when customers tell me they want to pay me money, I listen. We're not acting spoilt. I understand how you could be confused, though. I have been in plenty of other Head-Fi threads filled with non-owners, and worse, internet warriors who have no intention of being owners, who end up burying all the feedback from users who _actually want to buy. _If it suits Chord better, I suppose the rest of us who are not keen on the current announcements could just keep quiet, but at least for me, that isn't going to lead to a purchase. I don't think that suits Chord better.
  
 As a very crude generalisation, btw, a company who decides it is entirely up to them how they develop their new product designs with total disregard for users is one in trouble imho. That's not Chord. They did an M-Scaler because they know we like em' taps. So I have confidence in them to take all this feedback the right way.
  
 Quote:


mojo ideas said:


> Sometimes for us at Chord we decide that we want to have a new core technology like many of Robs developments that go unseen and not talked too much about and lie buried within his latest FPGA. However some are viewed by us to be statigically important and will be used over coming years across several new products. Therefore to us it doesn't really matter in which design they are first developed as we now have that core tech working and available to spin in which ever way Rob and we please. Such was the case with Robs new Million Tap M Scaler. This was for Rob about a solid year of Programming About half a million lines of code. You might ask why was he prepared to do this? He did it , simply because it gives him the possibility of putting his , at the time , un feasible college dream filter into a number of new designs to be used along side Our Dave Dac. You might ask why didn't we wait and put it in to Dave. We couldn't then and still can't because of the huge number of active gates, This means there are huge switching currents that are fine to have running around solely in the digital domain but not amoungst Dave sensitive mixed digital and analogue signals. The same phylosopyhy can be said for the technologies within Poly. Once fully proven these technologies will most likely be used across quite a few products in the next few years,


 
  
 Thank you. That is very reassuring, and is what I suspected. I can be patient for new products using the M-scaler.


----------



## romaz

christer said:


> Hi romaz, I saw  you mentioning ethernet  connections as well in one post here. Ethernet seems to be the favoured pro connection used at classical recording sessions judging from what I have seen,both with DSD and DXD pcm ADCs.
> It seems USB2 is only used  in consumer audio products these days.
> Even my first Weiss DAC had faster better Firewire connections  free of the usual USB problems,and now few  if any computers ,have even got USB2 ports any longer.
> Except for  DACs are there really any  new products with USB 2 ports these days?
> ...


 
 Chris,
  
 As you know, USB, like Redbook CD, is a touchy and controversial subject for many.  There are many threads here on Head-Fi, CA, and other sites that suggest USB is horrible and obsolete and that SPDIF, AES/EBU, Firewire, I2S or ethernet/AOIP is where it's at and for some DACs and some music servers, this might be the case.  If you are committed to a certain DAC or a certain music server, then go with what sounds best with that piece of equipment.  Often times, it's very clear because the manufacturer will tell you which connection is best.
  
 When you suggest Firewire is better because it's faster this is the wrong way to look at it.  Quality audio streaming has less to do with speed.  Sometimes too much speed is a bad thing because it can lead to greater noise and more errors.  You can stream 24/768kHz PCM or DSD512 at speeds of 100Mbits/sec or less, you don't need gigabit ethernet, Firewire or Thunderbolt type speeds to achieve this and so the bandwidth that USB 2.0 provides is more than fast enough.  In fact, it is with SPDIF and AES that you have a chokehold as these standards generally allow for no more than 24/192 PCM transfers (Chord is unique in its ability to pass 24/352 PCM).  
  
 For even greater bandwidth, you can go with USB 3.0 but this is generally considered to be a much noisier interface and so very few DACs or servers incorporate USB 3.0.  While there is little hard data to support it, there are many anecdotal reports here on Head-Fi and CA that suggest that the slower 100Mbit ethernet switches sound better than 1000Mbit switches for the same reason.  The sMS-200 ethernet endpoint that I use, as another example, incorporates only a 100Mbit PHY because SOtM believes this slower speed sounds better.  As for Firewire (or Thunderbolt), how many sources or DACs are incorporating these interfaces as preferred interfaces today?  Zero.
  
 Ethernet has some inherent advantages over other modes of transfer and so there are reasons to believe it can be superior over the others and could be the connection of the future.  In addition to superior bandwidth, because it is transformer-coupled, it is inherently galvanically isolated while USB, coax, Firewire, and Thunderbolt are not.  Because it incorporates an error-correcting packet protocol, you are assured a bit-perfect stream even over miles of ethernet cabling which is not the case with USB or any other protocol.   I believe this is the reason ethernet endpoints such as the microRendu, sMS-200 and RedNET sound so good and have become so popular and don't necessarily cost that much because you don't have to go to great lengths to make ethernet transfers sound good. 
  
 While there are more and more ethernet sources being developed, as you know, there are very few ethernet DACs (DACs with ethernet inputs).  MSB is one company (with their network renderer module).  dCS is another company as their Vivaldi upsampler incorporates an ethernet input.  Because there are so few ethernet DACs, then most ethernet sources are only ethernet in but not ethernet out.  The microRendu and sMS-200, for example, are ethernet in and USB out.  The RedNET is ethernet in and SPDIF/AES out.  Most of these devices, including the Pro devices that you allude to that claim to be AOIP are actually hybrid devices and not purely ethernet devices.
  
 To say that USB is inferior or outdated, however, is just plain wrong.  Each transfer protocol has its advantages and disadvantages and the while USB's failings have been well chronicled, they have also been overblown mainly because USB is so ubiquitous.  Because USB is an available port in every modern computer you buy today and because the "average" computer that you would use for word processing or photo editing generally don't make good music servers, people assume USB is _always_ horrible.  When implemented properly, I think it can sound as good as anything else.
  
 If you have ever hopped onto my music server thread here on Head-Fi, then you know I have listened to and compared many sources.  I am open to anything that sounds good regardless of whether it uses USB or not but thus far, the best sources I have heard are USB sources.  I believe the best "all in one" music server you can buy today is the Antipodes DX Gen 2 (made in New Zealand) but at close to $10k, it is expensive.  It is better than the best that Aurender, Lumin, Baetis, or CAT has to offer, in my opinion.  It's Achilles heel, like with most servers I've heard, is its power supply but Mark Jenkins, who builds the Antipodes will tell you that his USB output sounds best even though a fully loaded DX also has AES/EBU and SPDIF outputs.  While I have not heard the SGM 2015, I suspect that this $16k server will be as good as it gets for the DACs that benefit from DSD upsampling with HQPlayer and with this server, you _must_ use USB.
  
 When I first got my DAVE, it was my belief that all sources sounded the same but with more experience, it's clear they don't and I believe there are many DAVE users that believe as I do.  Because of how well USB is implemented in the DAVE, no source sounds bad but there are some sources that easily outpace a basic laptop and with proper care and attention, there are some sources that can take DAVE to a whole new level of performance.  Piecing together a highly modified Mac Mini, directly coupling it with an sMS-200 without an intermediary router, powering both with a Paul Hynes SR7 PSU and connecting directly to DAVE with USB, I have not heard anything better and combined with DAVE and M-scaler, I would pit it against anything.
  
 My suggestion to you is to ignore what the masses say because there is no one connection interface that is perfect for all situations.  If you decide for yourself that you want to buy a T+A DAC 8 DSD and that you will feed it an upsampled DSD512 signal from any music server, then you _must _use USB.  If you decide to buy a Schiit Yggdrasil, by most accounts, you will want to go AES/EBU, even if you have to use a USB-to-SPDIF converter.  If you buy an MSB DAC, you should spend the extra money for their network renderer with MQA decoder.  If you buy a Hugo2, just like Mojo, optical may be what sounds best.  If you buy a DAVE, you will want to go USB (unless you buy the Blu2, then you'll have no choice but to go BNC/SPDIF).  
  
 When the best DAC I have ever heard sounds best through its USB input and the best digital source I have ever heard has only a USB output, then you can understand why I would feel that USB is far from obsolete.  
  
 As for RBCD being outdated, I think this is also a premature statement.  We prefer the same genre and fortunately, classical music is often better recorded than other genres and so we have the option of many more hi-res masters than other genres.  Given that opportunity, I believe this is always the best way to go but once you hear for yourself how well Hugo2 handles RBCD, you may decide that it's not absolutely necessary to throw out all your RBCD files and replace them with hi-res masters.  I think you'll find that the difference won't be night and day and I would be willing to bet that many RBCDs played through Blu Mk2 + DAVE will _easily_ provide more information than their respective DXD masters played through most DACs.


----------



## Hubert H

jelt2359 said:


> As I have said many times, the nature of this thread is unique. Most Head-Fi threads are not like this. Those of us making requests here are really telling Chord "we want to give you more money"...


 
  
 Jelt, it's not the feedback that's an issue it's the way it is done, hysteria and Victorian type feints are not productive.


----------



## jelt2359

hubert h said:


> Jelt, it's not the feedback that's an issue it's the way it is done, hysteria and Victorian type feints are not productive.


 
 When points are made without being responded to, again and again, people tend to get frustrated. I think what you saw earlier was the online version of _'Why are you not responding? Let me talk LOUDER'_.
  
 Now the points are starting to be responded to, so you see people quieting down, and waiting. For example, John's previous reply that the M Scaler is likely the first of many products with this tech (and Rob's frank posts that getting to a million was a bonus, not the goal) have started to clarify our thoughts. Many of us thought that we were going to be forced to buy a CDP to get an M Scaler, and that's now clear that's not the case. Rather, if you need a CDP then go buy a CDP, the M Scaler just gives you a good reason to buy a Chord product. If you don't need a CDP, then the M Scaling technology is likely coming soon, in other products down the line- just likely not in a Dave 2. Which suits us current owners fine 
  
 Now all this is perfectly reasonable, so at this point the thread has calmed down and moved on to what else should be in those products (USB), as well as implications for Dave owners- the talk of a potential firmware upgrade (for different filters; for better code rendering HF Fil moot for Redbook; and for getting the dual BNC inputs to USB quality), for example, is exactly at home in this thread. The more us customers show that we would appreciate a firmware upgrade, the more likely Chord would be to see it as a necessity- so right now we're articulating our reasons why we think it's a 'must', not a 'wish'.
  
 Now lastly, a huge digression. Personally, as a guy who launches new products, I've always felt that it was critical to have responses ready, to monitor all discourse, and to react to them instantly and immediately when new products are launched. You get invaluable feedback about the pulse of the market; and you get the chance to nip all potential issues in the bud before they become crises. Now, not every company has the resources to do this at scale- but for example when a company tests their products pre-launch with users, they could also gather some potential feedback/ issues in advance, and simply release an FAQ to get ahead of any potential misunderstandings. I've always thought that this would be simple, effective, scaleable, and much appreciated! But that's just my way of doing things.


----------



## Jawed

romaz said:


> [...] I would be willing to bet that many RBCDs played through Blu Mk2 + DAVE will _easily_ provide more information than their respective DXD masters played through most DACs.



What "concerns" me is the implication that Blu 2 + DAVE appears to render RBCD at far better sound quality than DXD. 

There is a clear implication that M Scaler transforms RBCD to such a huge extent that it's an unignorable difference for everyone present.

Yet, I've never seen anyone talk in these terms when comparing RBCD and DXD versions of the same piece of music through DAVE. "Subtle", "better air", "slightly better reverb and decay". These are typical descriptions. Nothing like the black and white versus technicolor comparisons that we've seen for RBCD versus M Scaler.

So, something doesn't add up.

I'm not criticising your comparison, just using it as a leaping-off point to a question that I've been mulling since M Scaler technology was announced.

Now playing: Jonatha Brooke - Where Were You?


----------



## Christer

romaz said:


> Chris,
> 
> As you know, USB, like Redbook CD, is a touchy and controversial subject for many.  There are many threads here on Head-Fi, CA, and other sites that suggest USB is horrible and obsolete and that SPDIF, AES/EBU, Firewire, I2S or ethernet/AOIP is where it's at and for some DACs and some music servers, this might be the case.  If you are committed to a certain DAC or a certain music server, then go with what sounds best with that piece of equipment.  Often times, it's very clear because the manufacturer will tell you which connection is best.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for your in depth response to my questions "all over the place" in not always a very  logical order.
 I was just wondering a bit about these things and I appreciate your kind response.
 Knowing how happy some of my friends who actually  record classical music on a regular basis seem to be with their Merging equipment, I am still a bit tempted to go the HORUS /HAPI/ ETHERNET way for home use and  the new HUGO 2 for travel  use.
 I don't have more than maybe a handful of RBCDs that have mainly come bundled with music magazines. I have  virtually no  RBCD files at all to throw out or keep, since I  always go for the masterfiles both with new  digital recordings and the growing number of  24/96 transfers of  analogue recordings as downloads.
 My collection of analogue recorded music covers some ten shelf meters of LPs.
 I might want to make hi res  digital copies of some of those LPs that will most probably never be released as hi res downloads.
 But no matter what Rob manages to recover of missing information from RBCD I would not back up my LPs in that format.
 I am fully aware that even with my HUGO the difference is not  always night and day between RBCD and hi res. And that the recording quality and balance itself matters most of all. But everything else equal and given the choice I prefer the hi res version if there is one available.
 I also still harbour the suspicion that  the theoretically inaudible hf range above  the RBCD brickwall 22khz cutoff, produced by  some instruments of the symphony orchestra actually matters not only to dogs and bats, but to us humans too.
 Neither live acoustic music nor analogue or  hi res are bandwidth limited,but 16/44.1 RBCD is.
 Cheers Chris


----------



## Hubert H

I mostly agree and that’s sensible discussion but some of the ‘louder’ has been infantile. Besides, we are not the complete Chord customer base and may not be Chord’s typical user base either for their high end stuff. Not only that, but there has been ‘louder’ mired in complete ignorance of BLU, BLU2 and the M Scaler. No stress in being wrong but best not to poke someone in the chest whilst being so.
  
 I’ve had Chord products for nigh on 20 years and the sense I get regarding John’s physical designs are that they are engineering led, no bad thing, but appear to not have had user input consequently leading to odd design quirks here and there – Hugo connections, DSX1000 streamer without BLU digital inputs (there's history here...), some amplifier's C16 connectors. Most of which have been resolved in later iterations.
  
 A good number of us would have ordered a BLU2 immediately if it had an input range similar to Dave and I think it’s a shame it doesn’t but Chord know that now. We just need to give clear feedback in a positive manner, this should be a forum for growth.
  
 Another point though, Chord have something big on their hands and it’s a relatively small company, the Hugo and then Mojo must have radically altered their landscape and I don’t believe that they had any idea ~2 years ago that Rob’s creations would place them in the current position.
  
 All of this would be moot is the stuff didn’t sound so good though, maybe it’s because we love it that passions run a bit high


----------



## Sonic77

jelt2359 said:


> When points are made without being responded to, again and again, people tend to get frustrated. I think what you saw earlier was the online version of _'Why are you not responding? Let me talk LOUDER'_.
> 
> Now the points are starting to be responded to, so you see people quieting down, and waiting. For example, John's previous reply that the M Scaler is likely the first of many products with this tech (and Rob's frank posts that getting to a million was a bonus, not the goal) have started to clarify our thoughts. Many of us thought that we were going to be forced to buy a CDP to get an M Scaler, and that's now clear that's not the case. Rather, if you need a CDP then go buy a CDP, the M Scaler just gives you a good reason to buy a Chord product. If you don't need a CDP, then the M Scaling technology is likely coming soon, in other products down the line- just likely not in a Dave 2. Which suits us current owners fine
> 
> ...


 

 ​I agree, I don't care how good this cd player is, if it doesn't fit what I want I am not going to buy it, I'll just wait till they put it (M scaler) into a streamer, that's all some posters are saying, it may sound critical but it's not. It doesn't matter if it, "brings Dave to it's knees" or not, I am not interested in a cd player, don't get butt hurt because I said that. (That's directed at romaz, Not you jelt2359)


----------



## romaz

jawed said:


> What "concerns" me is the implication that Blu 2 + DAVE appears to render RBCD at far better sound quality than DXD.
> 
> There is a clear implication that M Scaler transforms RBCD to such a huge extent that it's an unignorable difference for everyone present.
> 
> ...


 
 I never talked about how one sounds better than another, that's for the individual listener to decide.  Read my post again and you'll see that I mentioned only that M-scaler with DAVE can extract more information from a Redbook file than most DACs can from a DXD file and I stand by this statement.  In fact, I stand by this statement with DAVE by itself against other DACs.  I'm not sure if you have your DAVE yet but feel free to do the comparison for yourself against a non-Chord DAC.   The 2L website has many files you can hear at varying levels of resolution.
  
 There is inherently more information present in a DXD file (24-bit. 352.8kHz sampling), there's no question, but most DACs and our ears aren't good enough to appreciate it.  DXD has 2.25x the dynamic range of Redbook and 8x the time resolution and so you would think that DXD should be vastly superior.  While the best ADCs can resolve to 21 effective bits of DR, since just about any other DAC except a Chord DAC must use an outboard amp and as most amps are often limited to about 17-bits of DR, then most DACs become handcuffed by the amp whereas DAVE direct to headphones or speakers is not.  With respect to time resolution, human ears typically can't resolve beyond 192kHz of sampling so for most of our ears, sampling beyond 192kHz adds nothing that our ears can discern.  In other words, 21/192 PCM is all that a master needs to achieve for most human ears and so the difference one might hear between 16/44 and 24/352.8 will never be as great as one would expect.
  
 I have stated before that I believe the quality of the performance and the recording and mastering technique are much more important than whether it is 16/44 or DXD and I continue to believe this.


----------



## Clive101

I think the BNC connectors were always built into DAVE for the M Scaler and DAVE adds the extra taps without firmware, serious pre-planning. Thank You Chord. At least my new DAVE is not redundant.
 
“Look carefully and you’ll find a quartet of BNC connectors that Chord calls DX inputs. These are for as yet unannounced Chord source products. We’re intrigued.
 Read more at http://www.whathifi.com/chord/dave/review#HipRj854pIXKeSi1.99 “
The newer manual has changed.
It would seem the BNC connections from M Scaler to DAVE are going to stay for us DAVE owners whether we like it or not.
If the Blu 2 had a USB input would make more sense and when and if the M Scaler was released with USB, you would have the choice of either, the CD being more expensive.  
Looking at the cost of the Blu2 and Blu the cost uplift is £1500.00 a bargain since an interconnect costs more.
Adding a box and power supply to the £1500.00 and overheads etc I see no reason why an affordable M Scaler cannot be produced to get the extra SQ – Taps. Guess you own price but it would be a big revenue generator for Chord I hope it is and hope they make one.
I have decided not to purchase the Blu 2 as no USB input, sorry Chord, but I am waiting should the M Scaler should one ever get made with USB input, I do not want to record either.
Anyone, what interconnect would you use for the BNC connections I have a Chord Sarum so that’s £3,800.00 !...????


----------



## JaZZ

clive101 said:


> “Look carefully and you’ll find a quartet of BNC connectors that Chord calls DX inputs. These are for as yet unannounced Chord source products. We’re intrigued.
> Read more at http://www.whathifi.com/chord/dave/review#HipRj854pIXKeSi1.99 “


 
  
 The reviewer may have got it wrong. Originally there was a mention of «2x ultra-high-speed coax 768 kHz dual-data mode (for use with future-unannounced Chord Electronics products)» – now known to be meant for the upcoming digital amp –, no words about coax_ inputs_ with special functionality apart from dual-data mode.


----------



## romaz

christer said:


> Thanks for your in depth response to my questions "all over the place" in not always a very  logical order.
> I was just wondering a bit about these things and I appreciate your kind response.
> Knowing how happy some of my friends who actually  record classical music on a regular basis seem to be with their Merging equipment, I am still a bit tempted to go the HORUS /HAPI/ ETHERNET way for home use and  the new HUGO 2 for travel  use.
> I don't have more than maybe a handful of RBCDs that have mainly come bundled with music magazines. I have  virtually no  RBCD files at all to throw out or keep, since I  always go for the masterfiles both with new  digital recordings and the growing number of  24/96 transfers of  analogue recordings as downloads.
> ...


 
 Chris, you're someone who I believe would truly appreciate all that the DAVE has to offer.  In my own experience, it is especially with classical music that DAVE distances itself from other DACs.  It goes without saying that given the choice, I think we would all prefer original masters in their native resolution, whatever that may be.  My collection of music, however, would be considerably smaller if I limited myself only to these types of recordings.  In the end, it is about engagement to a recording that we seek and I am finding very high engagement to even Tidal streaming at 16/44 with my DAVE.  I expect this will only improve further with the M-scaler.


----------



## Clive101

jazz said:


> The reviewer may have got it wrong. Originally there was a mention of «2x ultra-high-speed coax 768 kHz dual-data mode (for use with future-unannounced Chord Electronics products)» – now known to be meant for the upcoming digital amp –, no words about coax_ inputs_ with special functionality apart from dual-data mode.


 

 Thanks for the clarification, any idea how Dave adds more Taps if that makes sense ...?


----------



## esimms86

clive101 said:


> Anyone, what interconnect would you use for the BNC connections I have a Chord Sarum so that’s £3,800.00 !...????


 

 FWIW Chord used an Atlas Mavros 75 ohm BNC cable in their demo at CES 2017. I can't tell which model it was from the picture Roy posted but Atlas' TOTL Ultra 75 ohm BNC cable sells for 207 GBP. Based on that, it is _possible_ that the Chord Sarum may be overkill for this particular application.


----------



## Clive101

esimms86 said:


> FWIW Chord used an Atlas Mavros 75 ohm BNC cable in their demo at CES 2017. I can't tell which model it was from the picture Roy posted but Atlas' TOTL Ultra 75 ohm BNC cable sells for 207 GBP. Based on that, it is _possible_ that the Chord Sarum may be overkill for this particular application.


 

 Thanks for the update. I like the cheaper price.


----------



## Mojo ideas

evolvist said:


> And the above quotes are the reasons why I can't fathom the notion of the Blu2 not having USB considering Rob's fantastic work with USB.
> 
> What would be the best connection from Blu2 to DAVE? USB, right?
> 
> Well, I suppose I'm beating dead horse, though. No matter in the end. I would have bought a Blu2 had it had a simple USB IOs.


 Well my dear chap Rob and I have had a few chats about this issue since The Ces Launch and together with Matt back at Chord we think we have a good solution we are scrapping the current boards still in manufacture and Rob has been designing a new main circuit board that will be going for express manufacture in the U.K. So we won't loose any time. The new board has the additional High Speed USB input circuitry you are all wanting. Yes we admit we got it wrong to omit the USB on the design as was. However we are pleased that we can announce that all production units will now come with USB input too.


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## adyc

mojo ideas said:


> Well my dear chap Rob and I have had a few chats about this issue since The Ces Launch and together with Matt back at Chord we think we have a good solution we are scrapping the current boards still in manufacture and Rob has been designing a new main circuit board that will be going for express manufacture in the U.K. So we won't loose any time. The new board has the additional High Speed USB input circuitry you are all wanting. Yes we admit we got it wrong to omit the USB on the design as was. However we are pleased that we can announce that all production units will now come with USB input too.




Bravo!!! I will put my order to my dealer. 

Well done!!


----------



## izzard1982

mojo ideas said:


> Well my dear chap Rob and I have had a few chats about this issue since The Ces Launch and together with Matt back at Chord we think we have a good solution we are scrapping the current boards still in manufacture and Rob has been designing a new main circuit board that will be going for express manufacture in the U.K. So we won't loose any time. The new board has the additional High Speed USB input circuitry you are all wanting. Yes we admit we got it wrong to omit the USB on the design as was. However we are pleased that we can announce that all production units will now come with USB input too.


 
 Truly amazing, Wow!!!


----------



## esimms86

mojo ideas said:


> Well my dear chap Rob and I have had a few chats about this issue since The Ces Launch and together with Matt back at Chord we think we have a good solution we are scrapping the current boards still in manufacture and Rob has been designing a new main circuit board that will be going for express manufacture in the U.K. So we won't loose any time. The new board has the additional High Speed USB input circuitry you are all wanting. Yes we admit we got it wrong to omit the USB on the design as was. However we are pleased that we can announce that all production units will now come with USB input too.


----------



## miketlse

mojo ideas said:


> Well my dear chap Rob and I have had a few chats about this issue since The Ces Launch and together with Matt back at Chord we think we have a good solution we are scrapping the current boards still in manufacture and Rob has been designing a new main circuit board that will be going for express manufacture in the U.K. So we won't loose any time. The new board has the additional High Speed USB input circuitry you are all wanting. Yes we admit we got it wrong to omit the USB on the design as was. However we are pleased that we can announce that all production units will now come with USB input too.


 
  
 That is an amazing response. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The only downside is that everyone who made rude, anger filled posts after CES, will now claim that 'the end fully justified the means'.


----------



## lovethatsound

mojo ideas said:


> Well my dear chap Rob and I have had a few chats about this issue since The Ces Launch and together with Matt back at Chord we think we have a good solution we are scrapping the current boards still in manufacture and Rob has been designing a new main circuit board that will be going for express manufacture in the U.K. So we won't loose any time. The new board has the additional High Speed USB input circuitry you are all wanting. Yes we admit we got it wrong to omit the USB on the design as was. However we are pleased that we can announce that all production units will now come with USB input too.


Well done Chord,you've just made alot of people very happy,10 out of 10☺


----------



## lovethatsound

PS How about putting some of them boards in my original blu?just an idea☺beats scraping them,i hate waste don't you?☺


----------



## AndrewOld

mojo ideas said:


> Well my dear chap Rob and I have had a few chats about this issue since The Ces Launch and together with Matt back at Chord we think we have a good solution we are scrapping the current boards still in manufacture and Rob has been designing a new main circuit board that will be going for express manufacture in the U.K. So we won't loose any time. The new board has the additional High Speed USB input circuitry you are all wanting. Yes we admit we got it wrong to omit the USB on the design as was. However we are pleased that we can announce that all production units will now come with USB input too.


 

 Splendid!. The penny is dropping! Any chance of dropping the CD mechanism and associated electronics, simplifying the casework and giving us DAVE owners the benefits of the M Scaler without the redundancy and expense of CD replay that many of us don't use? You know it makes sense! The Blu2 is a great solution for people with CDs and a DAVE. People with a DAVE whose music is on a hard drive or streamed want a great solution too. 
  
 ps also a stand alone M Scaler would give CD users who are perfectly happy with their existing mechanism a way of upgrading too.


----------



## Clive101

andrewold said:


> Splendid!. The penny is dropping! Any chance of dropping the CD mechanism and associated electronics, simplifying the casework and giving us DAVE owners the benefits of the M Scaler without the redundancy and expense of CD replay that many of us don't use? You know it makes sense! The Blu2 is a great solution for people with CDs and a DAVE. People with a DAVE whose music is on a hard drive or streamed want a great solution too.


 
  Absolutely Agree.


----------



## romaz

mojo ideas said:


> Well my dear chap Rob and I have had a few chats about this issue since The Ces Launch and together with Matt back at Chord we think we have a good solution we are scrapping the current boards still in manufacture and Rob has been designing a new main circuit board that will be going for express manufacture in the U.K. So we won't loose any time. The new board has the additional High Speed USB input circuitry you are all wanting. Yes we admit we got it wrong to omit the USB on the design as was. However we are pleased that we can announce that all production units will now come with USB input too.


 
 Wowza!  Life all of a sudden got a lot happier, thank you!  I'm definitely moving forward with my order!


----------



## bmichels

Does CHORD supply (or can recommend) some specific cables set between the Blu2 and the DAVE ?


----------



## miketlse

bmichels said:


> Does CHORD supply (or can recommend) some specific cables set between the Blu2 and the DAVE ?


 
  
 Don't forget that Chord Electronics and Chord Cables are two different companies.


----------



## ecwl

mojo ideas said:


> Well my dear chap Rob and I have had a few chats about this issue since The Ces Launch and together with Matt back at Chord we think we have a good solution we are scrapping the current boards still in manufacture and Rob has been designing a new main circuit board that will be going for express manufacture in the U.K. So we won't loose any time. The new board has the additional High Speed USB input circuitry you are all wanting. Yes we admit we got it wrong to omit the USB on the design as was. However we are pleased that we can announce that all production units will now come with USB input too.


 

 This is not good for my wallet. But I guess I probably won't have to wait for the DAVINA and can just order/pre-order Blu 2. Hmmm... Very tempting. It's going to be a weekend of deep contemplation. Maybe listening to DAVE would inspire me to the right decision.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Clive
I use Chord Sarum Super Aray BNC but I have used their Indigo BNC for a while and I was very impressed with its performance for half the price.


----------



## gearspro

hello, I'm new in this forum. great place to speak for audio.
 I have AKG k702 headphones and since now I hear music from a Technics amp , not good I know, and I have some money to spent. Do you believe is a good fit my headphones with Chord Dave or it is better to buy better headphones and a cheaper headphone amp? HugoTT for example.


----------



## PhiQuanTu

Well now the Blu2 customers gonna have to share the cost for scraping all those old pcb . Like the old saying, be careful for what you're asking for.

Joking aside, I'm glad that Chord does listen to our requests & needs.


----------



## ecwl

gearspro said:


> hello, I'm new in this forum. great place to speak for audio.
> I have AKG k702 headphones and since now I hear music from a Technics amp , not good I know, and I have some money to spent. Do you believe is a good fit my headphones with Chord Dave or it is better to buy better headphones and a cheaper headphone amp? HugoTT for example.




I'm actually surprised this and other forums aren't excited about Hugo 2. To me, Hugo 2 is less an upgrade of Hugo but more a miniaturization of DAVE as it incorporates a lot of the new developments from DAVE. I'd strongly suspect with a limited budget, Hugo 2 plus more expensive headphones will give you more bang for the buck than DAVE and AKG702.
Heck, I was tempted to get a Hugo 2 for fun until I realize I need to save up for the Blu 2...


----------



## romaz

gearspro said:


> hello, I'm new in this forum. great place to speak for audio.
> I have AKG k702 headphones and since now I hear music from a Technics amp , not good I know, and I have some money to spent. Do you believe is a good fit my headphones with Chord Dave or it is better to buy better headphones and a cheaper headphone amp? HugoTT for example.


 
 It depends on what your budget is and what functionality you're looking for.  If you are looking for a desktop setup and want the absolute best resolution DAC/amp that can drive most headphones extremely well, it's hard to do better than DAVE. 
  
 If you don't mind a bit of compromise in performance but in return, you get portability while also saving enough money to buy a few more headphones, like ECWL has said, it would be very hard to beat Hugo2.  Personally, I would choose Hugo2 over TT today.


----------



## Peter Hyatt

ecwl said:


> gearspro said:
> 
> 
> > hello, I'm new in this forum. great place to speak for audio.
> ...





Lots of us see Hugo 2 as mini DAVE and are counting the days until it's released!!


----------



## EVOLVIST

mojo ideas said:


> Well my dear chap Rob and I have had a few chats about this issue since The Ces Launch and together with Matt back at Chord we think we have a good solution we are scrapping the current boards still in manufacture and Rob has been designing a new main circuit board that will be going for express manufacture in the U.K. So we won't loose any time. The new board has the additional High Speed USB input circuitry you are all wanting. Yes we admit we got it wrong to omit the USB on the design as was. However we are pleased that we can announce that all production units will now come with USB input too.


 
  
 John, I'm nearly speechless at the graciousness and consideration that you've taken in your thought process concerning the Blu2 with USB. Let it never be said that Chord doesn't have a keen ear to the wants of their fans (and I'm not talking about consumer outcry here). Chord has pushed the boundaries in a lot of innovations, but pushing in the realm of thoughtfulness is something that won't be forgotten, especially in an audio world that is fraught with gimmicks. To see a company of such prestige, like Chord, come through, well, it's not really so much of a matter of getting what we want, as consumers, it's more about the symbiotic relationship that we have forged as partners who share a high passion for high-end.
  
 This is for Rob, too! It's really fine stuff that I will not only be able to spin those discs of mine, but also stream into my DAVE. Now the only question is, black or silver?


----------



## Christer

romaz said:


> Chris, you're someone who I believe would truly appreciate all that the DAVE has to offer.  In my own experience, it is especially with classical music that DAVE distances itself from other DACs.  It goes without saying that given the choice, I think we would all prefer original masters in their native resolution, whatever that may be.  My collection of music, however, would be considerably smaller if I limited myself only to these types of recordings.  In the end, it is about engagement to a recording that we seek and I am finding very high engagement to even Tidal streaming at 16/44 with my DAVE.  I expect this will only improve further with the M-scaler.


 

 Hello again romaz, of course I am not only limiting myself to analogue or hi res.
 A few days ago I watched  Toscanini's Beethoven 9 concert from 1948 on youtube. Hardly hi res. But very interesting both to watch and hear. Even with  the very limited SQ and black and white images, still a moving  musical experience.
 And I also very much enjoyed Celibidache's"masterclass" rehearsing Bruckner 9 without a score to mention only 2 very  recent low res sessions via HUGO.
 Cheers Chris


----------



## EVOLVIST

esimms86 said:


> FWIW Chord used an Atlas Mavros 75 ohm BNC cable in their demo at CES 2017. I can't tell which model it was from the picture Roy posted but Atlas' TOTL Ultra 75 ohm BNC cable sells for 207 GBP. Based on that, it is _possible_ that the Chord Sarum may be overkill for this particular application.




Yeah, but aren't these BNC cables just RCA cables with 75ohm termination?

Edit: or coax cable, yeah?


----------



## Kamil21

mojo ideas said:


> Well my dear chap Rob and I have had a few chats about this issue since The Ces Launch and together with Matt back at Chord we think we have a good solution we are scrapping the current boards still in manufacture and Rob has been designing a new main circuit board that will be going for express manufacture in the U.K. So we won't loose any time. The new board has the additional High Speed USB input circuitry you are all wanting. Yes we admit we got it wrong to omit the USB on the design as was. However we are pleased that we can announce that all production units will now come with USB input too.




Wow!

1) I promise I won't be rude here to Rob, John and Matt again.

2) I promise I will continue to give Chord good and fair feedback on this forum.

My next major upgrade is still going to be Davina as I can only afford one, and I would treasure its role as an analog preamplifier for Dave.

But now I can sleep well with my investments, knowing that Chord is a company that listens to its customers and will be a leader in their field for a very long time.

Well done my friends!


----------



## KMann

mojo ideas said:


> Well my dear chap Rob and I have had a few chats about this issue since The Ces Launch and together with Matt back at Chord we think we have a good solution we are scrapping the current boards still in manufacture and Rob has been designing a new main circuit board that will be going for express manufacture in the U.K. So we won't loose any time. The new board has the additional High Speed USB input circuitry you are all wanting. Yes we admit we got it wrong to omit the USB on the design as was. However we are pleased that we can announce that all production units will now come with USB input too.


 
  
 Wow.You guys have set the bar pretty high on lisening to feedback from your customers! Thanks for being so transparent about your design process. I very much enjoy reading the informtion Rob shares here and on other threads.


----------



## analogmusic

I am very impressed, WOW !!!!


----------



## jelt2359

Well done Chord. Kudos for listening to your customers. That's the defining mark of a fine company that's built to last.


----------



## Kamil21

kamil21 said:


> Wow!
> 
> 1) I promise I won't be rude here to Rob, John and Matt again.
> 
> ...




Mojo ideas Oh, and since we are all in the mood for asking and listening..

How about multiple (2 or3) switchable inputs for Davina? That way I can run RiAA phono as well as reel to reel! You know you can sell more of these positioned as a state of the art preamp as well!


----------



## oscarnr

mojo ideas said:


> Well my dear chap Rob and I have had a few chats about this issue since The Ces Launch and together with Matt back at Chord we think we have a good solution we are scrapping the current boards still in manufacture and Rob has been designing a new main circuit board that will be going for express manufacture in the U.K. So we won't loose any time. The new board has the additional High Speed USB input circuitry you are all wanting. Yes we admit we got it wrong to omit the USB on the design as was. However we are pleased that we can announce that all production units will now come with USB input too.




WOW. This is an impressive feedback!This is what I was expecting. John, which is the expected delivery time for the Blu2? Can I place a pre-order now from my dealer?
Thank you!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

You know, after more than a year of ownership I am still blown away by how good the Dave is. Admittedly I have improved a number of areas in the chain in order to extract the most from Dave. Some measures have been simple improved isolation from front to end but also moving to a ribbon 'tweeter and mid' has helped too. Looking to add the finishing touch to the front end with Blu2 M Scaler. Acoustic room treatment is in the pipeline too (well overdue). I ordered a new car last week but I am more excited about owning the M Scaler tbh.


----------



## Clive101

evolvist said:


> Yeah, but aren't these BNC cables just RCA cables with 75ohm termination?
> 
> Edit: or coax cable, yeah?


 

 Yes I thought so as well, looking at the chord  cables website you can order RCA interconnects with BNC connecters..?


----------



## Clive101

QuoOriginally Posted by *DaveRedRef-III* /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 Clive
 I use Chord Sarum Super Aray BNC but I have used their Indigo BNC for a while and I was very impressed with its performance for half the price.te: 





>


 

 Thank you, I will try, if I end up with a Blu2, but prefer just the "M Scaler" option if it was available.
  
 Looking at my HiFi Stand I will need another level or two chord stands for the Dave and Blu 2 along with the interconnects approx. 17 k extra to get the million taps hard on the wallet!


----------



## Mojo ideas

andrewold said:


> Splendid!. The penny is dropping! Any chance of dropping the CD mechanism and associated electronics, simplifying the casework and giving us DAVE owners the benefits of the M Scaler without the redundancy and expense of CD replay that many of us don't use? You know it makes sense! The Blu2 is a great solution for people with CDs and a DAVE. People with a DAVE whose music is on a hard drive or streamed want a great solution too.
> 
> ps also a stand alone M Scaler would give CD users who are perfectly happy with their existing mechanism a way of upgrading too.



We are planning to use this new piece of Digital art from Rob Watt across a number of platforms in future just not immediately. Also we are hoping that the people won't be too happy with their existing mechanism once they hear the Blu 2 after all that is what we'd want to achieve.


----------



## Mojo ideas

evolvist said:


> John, I'm nearly speechless at the graciousness and consideration that you've taken in your thought process concerning the Blu2 with USB. Let it never be said that Chord doesn't have a keen ear to the wants of their fans (and I'm not talking about consumer outcry here). Chord has pushed the boundaries in a lot of innovations, but pushing in the realm of thoughtfulness is something that won't be forgotten, especially in an audio world that is fraught with gimmicks. To see a company of such prestige, like Chord, come through, well, it's not really so much of a matter of getting what we want, as consumers, it's more about the symbiotic relationship that we have forged as partners who share a high passion for high-end.
> 
> This is for Rob, too! It's really fine stuff that I will not only be able to spin those discs of mine, but also stream into my DAVE. Now the only question is, black or silver?


 I would like to say a sincere thank you to all of you that write in such an errodite and incisive fashion providing such excellent and fast feed back to allow for those of us that listen to rethink and improve our designs even between launch and production. It's amazing what can be done really thanks to you .... and Rob slogging away all week.


----------



## Mojo ideas

kamil21 said:


> Mojo ideas Oh, and since we are all in the mood for asking and listening..
> 
> How about multiple (2 or3) switchable inputs for Davina? That way I can run RiAA phono as well as reel to reel! You know you can sell more of these positioned as a state of the art preamp as well!


:thumbsup_tone1:Good ideas


----------



## Clive101

mojo ideas said:


> We are planning to use this new piece of Digital art from Rob Watt across a number of platforms in future just not immediately. Also we are hoping that the people won't be too happy with their existing mechanism once they hear the Blu 2 after all that is what we'd want to achieve.


 

 ​Firstly thank you John, Rob and Chord for Dave and for the time and effort in re-designing the new Blu2.
  
 I look forward to your new products, my cheque book awaits..!
  
 In theory is it possible to have the M Scaler with USB output, any differences with SQ over the Blu2 output..?


----------



## AndrewOld

mojo ideas said:


> We are planning to use this new piece of Digital art from Rob Watt across a number of platforms in future just not immediately. Also we are hoping that the people won't be too happy with their existing mechanism once they hear the Blu 2 after all that is what we'd want to achieve.




Great, thank you. Put me down for a stand alone M Scaler. One with an inbuilt streamer is probably too much to hope for! (Might not even make sense to stick noisy processors in the same box.) But a straight M scaler would be very attractive because I could upgrade my wonderful DAVE in a coherent way.


----------



## JaZZ

mojo ideas said:


> kamil21 said:
> 
> 
> > @Mojo ideas Oh, and since we are all in the mood for asking and listening..
> ...


 
  
 My respect for you, John, Rob & Chord Electronics, for such an open mind! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 That's real audiophile spirit.
  
 I will add my request for a separate M-scaler at an affordable price, if possible in a compact format. I wish Rob could simply upsample the FPGA code by a factor of 2 to get us 2 million taps for the separate 2M-scaler. (I would still be happy with the now 1M, though.)


----------



## dmance

​@Mojo ideas
 ​When the BLU2 is combined with DAVE, then presumably all WTA up-sampling is performed by BLU2 hence freeing up FPGA resources on DAVE.  Does this allow expanded processing by DAVE on other aspects of the D/A process?
 ​Thanks and very appreciative of your participation here...
 Dan


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

John and Rob
I would love to see a 6 band mastering parametric EQ built into Dave down the line. It could be adjusted via an iPad app with Bluetooth connection. 

 I think this will be something every system will have in 5 yrs time because every hifi room compromises flat response and very few loudspeakers are truly flat response anyway.


----------



## Paul Bjernklo

mojo ideas said:


> :thumbsup_tone1:Good ideas




As a very happy Hugo owner (that I use at home only), I would still love to have galvanically isolated USB for the Hugo 2 as requested by so many.

Also does anyone know if the future Chord digital amp will only work with Dave, and if so what function will Dave perform in that set-up, if the user also has a Blu2? I guess no one knows yet just trying to understand if there is any point to wait for the Digital amp if i go for Hugo 2. Thank you 






jazz said:


> My respect for you, John, Rob & Chord Electronics, for such an open mind!  That's real audiophile spirit.
> 
> I will add my request for a separate M-scaler at an affordable price, if possible in a compact format. I wish Rob could simply upsample the FPGA code by a factor of 2 to get us 2 million taps for the separate 2M-scaler. (I would still be happy with the now 1M, though.)


----------



## EVOLVIST

clive101 said:


> Yes I thought so as well, looking at the chord  cables website you can order RCA interconnects with BNC connecters..?




Yeah, take a look at these, advertized for world clock purposes. 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/WDCS3


----------



## esimms86

evolvist said:


> Yeah, take a look at these, advertized for world clock purposes.
> 
> https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/WDCS3




I'm not sure if these will serve the purpose with Blu2. Download the manual for the original Blu. It has word clock input and output for pro applications and dual BNC outputs for use with DACs. Blu also does not come with 75 ohm cables so I assume that you will have to have a pair on hand on when setting up the Blu2.

I agree, however, that you will not need to have the most expensive BNC cables to get Blu2 to work with Dave. This does not discount the possibility that higher end cables may potentially give you a detectable performance boost. I suspect that Rob may eventually weigh in on this question and that Roy will eventually post on his adventures with different BNC cables. Speaking for myself, unless HFC comes out with a Reveal BNC to BNC cable, I will probably get a pair of Atlas Mavros Ultra cables and call it a day.


----------



## Arpiben

evolvist said:


> Yeah, take a look at these, advertized for world clock purposes.
> 
> https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/WDCS3


 
  
 Well since we are dealing with digital transmission the important parameters are:
 - 75 Ohms cable impedance,
 - 75 Ohms terminations.
  
 Usually RCA is not a suitable 75 Ohms termination. Do prefer BNC 75 Ohms connectotrs and avoid RCA to BNC adapters.
 In terms of transmission rate involved in SPDIF or even if considering 32 bits / 768kHz ( max 50 Mbps) a simple RG59 BNC should be more than enough.


----------



## Sonic77

Thank you Chord! You just made a lot of people, including me, very happy. My order is a guarantee.


----------



## miketlse

paul bjernklo said:


> As a very happy Hugo owner (that I use at home only), I would still love to have galvanically isolated USB for the Hugo 2 as requested by so many.
> 
> Also does anyone know if the future Chord digital amp will only work with Dave, and if so what function will Dave perform in that set-up, if the user also has a Blu2? I guess no one knows yet just trying to understand if there is any point to wait for the Digital amp if i go for Hugo 2. Thank you


 
 If you opt for the Hugo 2, you could also consider the TToby amp. It has received a good review in the latest edition of HiFi News.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jazz said:


> My respect for you, John, Rob & Chord Electronics, for such an open mind!  That's real audiophile spirit.
> 
> I will add my request for a separate M-scaler at an affordable price, if possible in a compact format. I wish Rob could simply upsample the FPGA code by a factor of 2 to get us 2 million taps for the separate 2M-scaler. (I would still be happy with the now 1M, though.)




Yeah, but, Marcel, if I'm not mistaken what is 2mil taps going to do as far as audible SQ? From my understanding, and I could be completely wrong, that once you've reached 1mil taps to totally piece back together 16-bit, anything less than 250mil taps for 24-bit audio, is merely a waystation in between, and doubtful whether 250mil taps is that much of an increase in SQ over 16-bit audio. 

Obviously, I'm spitballing here because much of this is in theory. We are now saying that 1mil taps, along with WTA implementation, achieves a full 16-bits. Is this as close to fact as we are going to get? If so, how could anything less than the theoretical 250mil taps do any good, because at 2mil, or 5mil,or 100mil,we are not changing the bits or frequency of a 16/44.1 file, if 1mil is considered perfect reproduction of RBCD. 

Conversely, I have wondered what benefit the Blu2 will actually give me 24-bit audio. After all, there are new re-masters that I own that I can only find in 24/96 or 24/192. I'm not talking about upsampled remasters, but these are how the albums were re-mastered. Is M-Scaler going to give me any sonic benefit? I'm 98% certain that it's the actual re-master that I'm enjoying and not the bits and frequencies.

I plan on taking a swing at the Blu2. RBCD still rules the roost in my collection. To that end, I bought Kevin Gray's vinyl re-master of Prince's "Sign 'o' the Times" album, but I don't have a legit turntable, so the plan all along was to have a buddy of mine, who has a kick ass turntable rig to needledrop this album to 24/192 for me. Now I'm thinking he might as well do it 16/44.1 because what's the other bits going to do? Hell, vinyl only contains about 12-bits, anyway.


----------



## miketlse

evolvist said:


> Yeah, but, Marcel, if I'm not mistaken what is 2mil taps going to do as far as audible SQ? From my understanding, and I could be completely wrong, that once you've reached 1mil taps to totally piece back together 16-bit, anything less than 250mil taps for 24-bit audio, is merely a waystation in between, and doubtful whether 250mil taps is that much of an increase in SQ over 16-bit audio.
> 
> Obviously, I'm spitballing here because much of this is in theory. We are now saying that 1mil taps, along with WTA implementation, achieves a full 16-bits. Is this as close to fact as we are going to get? If so, how could anything less than the theoretical 250mil taps do any good, because at 2mil, or 5mil,or 100mil,we are not changing the bits or frequency of a 16/44.1 file, if 1mil is considered perfect reproduction of RBCD.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I suggest looking at 2 mill taps, in terms of the application of the scientific method.
  

During his university days, Rob Watts developed his hypothesis that a 16 bit data input, would need 1 mill taps to convert this back into an analogue waveform, that the human ear/brain could not distinguish from the original.
He has finally been able develop the M Scaler and DAVE technology, which together achieve that 1 mill taps.
The next logical research step is to extend the M Scaler and DAVE technology, to achieve more than 1 mill taps (lets use 2 mill as an example), in order to prove/disprove his original hypothesis that only 1 mill is needed. 
if this research proved that the original hypothesis was valid, then there is no need to then produce the 2 mill equipment for sale to the public
in reality there will always be customers who want bigger/faster, etc equipment/cars etc, and manufacturers will usually oblige them


----------



## JaZZ

I know nothing. I'm still extrapolating from the 1 million taps experience, which was a surprise after all. So I wouldn't be surprised if doubling the tap count would surprise us again.


----------



## miketlse

jazz said:


> I know nothing. I'm still extrapolating from the 1 million taps experience, which was a surprise after all. So I wouldn't be surprised if doubling the tap count would surprise us again.


 
  
 That would certainly surprise Rob, and probably trigger the next wave of his research.


----------



## Jawed

miketlse said:


> During his university days, Rob Watts developed his hypothesis that a 16 bit data input, would need 1 mill taps to convert this back into an analogue waveform, that the human ear/brain could not distinguish from the original.



A low-pass "perfect sinc" filter with 1 million taps will produce a different result depending upon whether you feed it 2x, 4x, 8x or 16x (etc.) sample rate data. The frequency response will vary, as will the rejection of frequencies above Nyquist. The coefficients have to vary depending upon the ratio of cut-off frequency to the upsample rate and the count of original samples that are used to compute each new sample varies with the upsampling rate, for a given tap length. 

I'm unclear on what sample rate Rob was thinking of when he did his calculation, originally.

My understanding is that for a given tap length, e.g. the 164,000 taps in DAVE, Rob heard differences depending upon the upsample rate. Eventually he rejected 8x upsampling for the first stage WTA filter in DAVE (it sounded too soft) and chose 16x instead.

Also, M Scaler uses the WTA algorithm, which, as far as I can tell, means it is not the pure sinc function running with such high precision due to sufficient taps, that there is no residual error in the resulting analogue waveform, which is what Rob apparently hypothesised originally (he hadn't developed WTA back then, of course). In this case I think it's reasonable to assume that the WTA coefficients are not the same as the coefficients produced by sinc. That appears to imply that the sound of M Scaler is not the same as it would be if sinc coefficients were used instead.

The reason to use WTA is "transient accuracy", implying high-frequency, high amplitude signals are not softened by the low-pass filter (DAVE's transient speed is amazing, after all!). In theory M Scaler with WTA coefficients was chosen because it sounds better than the coefficients derived purely from sinc. If that's the case, then it would seem it already contradicts the idea that 1 million taps is enough, since the original idea was 1 million taps based solely upon sinc.

So, these two reasons combined are why I doubt a million taps at 16x upsampling is the limit for audible improvements.

Now playing: Shelly Manne [At the Blackhawk] - Poinciana


----------



## romaz

paul bjernklo said:


> Also does anyone know if the future Chord digital amp will only work with Dave, and if so what function will Dave perform in that set-up, if the user also has a Blu2? I guess no one knows yet just trying to understand if there is any point to wait for the Digital amp if i go for Hugo 2. Thank you


 
 Rob's digital amp will have only a DX digital input and so you will need a device with DX digital output to use it.  As of right now, this means only DAVE.


----------



## romaz

jazz said:


> I know nothing. I'm still extrapolating from the 1 million taps experience, which was a surprise after all. So I wouldn't be surprised if doubling the tap count would surprise us again.


 
 Rob had stated that the purpose of Davina is to find out how many biscuits are left in the barrel, meaning how many more taps are necessary before you can no longer hear any differences.  Depending on what he learns with Davina, he told me he is prepared to push to 16M taps if necessary.


----------



## romaz

esimms86 said:


> I'm not sure if these will serve the purpose with Blu2. Download the manual for the original Blu. It has word clock input and output for pro applications and dual BNC outputs for use with DACs. Blu also does not come with 75 ohm cables so I assume that you will have to have a pair on hand on when setting up the Blu2.
> 
> I agree, however, that you will not need to have the most expensive BNC cables to get Blu2 to work with Dave. This does not discount the possibility that higher end cables may potentially give you a detectable performance boost. I suspect that Rob may eventually weigh in on this question and that Roy will eventually post on his adventures with different BNC cables. Speaking for myself, unless HFC comes out with a Reveal BNC to BNC cable, I will probably get a pair of Atlas Mavros Ultra cables and call it a day.


 
 HFC Reveal Digital RCAs will soon be available with BNC terminations available upon request.  The Reveal will have a performance level that is better than HFC's CT-1 and just below CT-1E (but closer to CT-1E than CT-1) and will cost less than CT-1.  The CT-1s and CT-1Es will be phased out in favor of the Reveal and will be priced less than the CT-1.  Anticipated price will be $700 USD for 1m ($1,400 for a set of 2).  In HFC's internal testing, their new entry level Reveal line is outperforming Nordost Odins and HFC is willing to guarantee it or your money back.  I would expect that they will easily outperform the Atlas Mavros Ultra.  
  
 As with all digital coax cables, to avoid the negative impact of reflections, the ideal length of these cables will be 1.25m to 1.5m.  This is one of those situations where shorter does not mean better.


----------



## romaz

paul bjernklo said:


> As a very happy Hugo owner (that I use at home only), I would still love to have galvanically isolated USB for the Hugo 2 as requested by so many.


 
 This probably will never happen since Hugo2 is meant to be portable and galvanic isolation would eat up battery life.


----------



## romaz

Here's more information regarding Blu Mk2 that may be helpful for some to know.  
  
 Blu Mk2 will have _both_ a USB and BNC/SPDIF input.  I was afraid USB would be replacing BNC/SPDIF and this will not be the case.  While I'm not sure I would use the BNC/SPDIF input, I believe it's good to have options and the more digital inputs, the better.
  
 Neither the USB nor the BNC/SPDIF input will be galvanically isolated.  Rob has stated that this is because the DX outputs will already be galvanically isolated and there's no need to have them at the inputs also.  What this means is that only when paired with DAVE will Blu Mk2 (or M-scaler) offer galvanic isolation since only DAVE has DX connections.  Perhaps, another reason to buy the DAVE instead of Hugo2 (or any other DAC) for those interested in an M-scaler.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jawed said:


> A low-pass "perfect sinc" filter with 1 million taps will produce a different result depending upon whether you feed it 2x, 4x, 8x or 16x (etc.) sample rate data. The frequency response will vary, as will the rejection of frequencies above Nyquist. The coefficients have to vary depending upon the ratio of cut-off frequency to the upsample rate and the count of original samples that are used to compute each new sample varies with the upsampling rate, for a given tap length.
> 
> I'm unclear on what sample rate Rob was thinking of when he did his calculation, originally.
> 
> ...




Man, that is a really great post! Only, I think that all I understood was A, E, I, O, U and sometimes Y. 

Could you dumb that down a little bit for this dummy?


----------



## Jawed

When you design a low pass filter, the upsampling rate (8x or 16x, say) affects the design, and the sound of the filter. 8x upsampling wasn't high enough for 164,000 taps in DAVE. Perhaps 16x isn't enough for 1 million?

When you've chosen the upsampling rate and the number of taps, the choice of algorithm (e.g. WTA or sinc) affects the sound. The original theory is that sinc sounds best when you have enough taps. If you have less than enough taps, then you use WTA (and there are other choices, which Rob has rejected as inferior) to apply a correction for the error. M Scaler uses WTA, implying that it sounds different from sinc. This might imply that sinc is not accurate at 1 million taps.

So, both of those ideas make me suspect Rob's going to be busy exploring more than 1 million taps.

Now playing: Calvin Party - Repetition No. 2


----------



## esimms86

romaz said:


> HFC Reveal Digital RCAs will soon be available with BNC terminations available upon request.  The Reveal will have a performance level that is better than HFC's CT-1 and just below CT-1E (but closer to CT-1E than CT-1) and will cost less than CT-1.  The CT-1s and CT-1Es will be phased out in favor of the Reveal and will be priced less than the CT-1.  Anticipated price will be $700 USD for 1m ($1,400 for a set of 2).  In HFC's internal testing, their new entry level Reveal line is outperforming Nordost Odins and HFC is willing to guarantee it or your money back.  I would expect that they will easily outperform the Atlas Mavros Ultra.
> 
> As with all digital coax cables, to avoid the negative impact of reflections, the ideal length of these cables will be 1.25m to 1.5m.  This is one of those situations where shorter does not mean better.




Thanks Roy. I guess now I know which cables I'm going to buy. Will probably get a Reveal power cable to go with it. The Atlas Mavros at approximately 520 USD per pair are roughly a third the price of the Reveal BNCs. Of course, when you figure in the fact that my entire system is connected with HFC cables there's system synergy that makes for an even larger improvement.


----------



## romaz

esimms86 said:


> Thanks Roy. I guess now I know which cables I'm going to buy. Will probably get a Reveal power cable to go with it. The Atlas Mavros at approximately 520 USD per pair are roughly a third the price of the Reveal BNCs. Of course, when you figure in the fact that my entire system is connected with HFC cables there's system synergy that makes for an even larger improvement.


 
 You and me both!


----------



## EVOLVIST

I wish Wireworld made BNC cables. I'm so stuck on their PCs, having a Silver 7 BNC would be choice.


----------



## iDesign

rob watts said:


> Yes life has been extremely busy - last week was finishing production code for Blu 2 (tested and delivered to Chord) and finishing Davina PCB (just front panel left to do).
> 
> I have just arrived in Japan with John, picking up another award for Dave and next week I plan to do a full posting about Hugo 2 on my blog showing all the slides in full plus adding some more comments.
> 
> ...


 

 I'm looking forward to reading your full posting about Hugo 2. In your post I'm wondering if you can please share details about the Hugo 2's charging design as it relates to lithium ion battery longevity for owners who wish to keep the Hugo 2 continuously charged in a 2-channel or desktop application? I realize Hugo 2 is now charged via USB micro but I hope Chord still includes a USA wall charger so owners don't need source their own.
  
 On a DAVE related note, it took me several hours tonight to find the Vaughan Williams, Academy of St Martin-in-the-Fields, Neville Marriner, Agro (1986), CD in my library because it wasn't in the right spot. After listening to the album, I am continually amazed by how your DAC designs seem to excite the _entire_ surface of the headphone's driver, giving the impression of music filling the x, y, and z axes. And because DAVE is so musical, the listening experience is spectacularly immersive-- few other pieces of audio kit I have ever purchased can do this. Fantastic stuff, Rob.


----------



## Rob Watts

jawed said:


> When you design a low pass filter, the upsampling rate (8x or 16x, say) affects the design, and the sound of the filter. 8x upsampling wasn't high enough for 164,000 taps in DAVE. Perhaps 16x isn't enough for 1 million?
> 
> When you've chosen the upsampling rate and the number of taps, the choice of algorithm (e.g. WTA or sinc) affects the sound. The original theory is that sinc sounds best when you have enough taps. If you have less than enough taps, then you use WTA (and there are other choices, which Rob has rejected as inferior) to apply a correction for the error. M Scaler uses WTA, implying that it sounds different from sinc. This might imply that sinc is not accurate at 1 million taps.
> 
> ...


 
 Absolutely - when we talk about a finite tap length we are already well away from theory, as that implies an infinite number of taps, infinitely over-sampled - and infinite squared is a big number!
  
 And the decision to split the job over two WTA filters (WTA 1 getting you to 16FS, WTA 2 getting you to 256FS) plus a non WTA digital filter (3rd order getting you to 2048FS) was based upon listening tests to see which arrangement sounds the best. And you are trying to reduce the peak error (or the peak difference from the original un-sampled signal in the ADC at any one moment in time). So peak error is what I talk about when I say that the M scaler, guarantees that the peak error at 16FS is better than 16 bits accuracy as the coefficients are identical to an ideal sinc function to the 16 bit level.
  
 Now this does not mean that if one uses a 16 bit source, it is good enough - and that was never my original idea - it just occurred to me that if you wanted 16 bit accuracy at all times from one sample to the next then you needed something like a million taps. Now to give you an example - the peak error is an instantaneous distortion or difference from the original un-sampled continuous waveform in the ADC. So nobody would say if I have a 16 bit source than I need an amp that is 16 bit accurate in distortion (0.0015% THD) and so if I used an amp that had ten times lower distortion than the ideal 16 bits I would not be able to hear the difference; that suggestion would be absurd, as the distortion would be audible whatever the source (assuming reasonable recording quality). But I am not about to disappear for a year and design a 16M tap filter and then find out that 1M is enough - Davina will tell me exactly how much loss in sound quality we get in going from 768>48>768 using an M scaler; and I will publish these test recordings, so all can hear the losses that the decimation interpolation actually gives us.
  
 Another point - people have posted about HD recordings, and why they don't make a huge difference to SQ, when WTA filter clearly does. It's possible to explain that. Now a conventional interpolation filter (and MQA) is about 6 to 8 bits accurate for the interpolated samples with transients; now when you use a 44.1k and replace that with a 88.2k recording then the delta from one sample to the next is halved as you now have twice the samples; this in turn, for a given conventional interpolation filter will halve the peak error. So instead of being 6-8 bits it will now be 7-9 bit accurate; doubling the sample rate is only halving the peak error; so a 192k recording will only be 8-10 bits accurate with conventional filters. But with the WTA M scaler we are guaranteed better than 16 bit accuracy for all signals for every 768 kHz sample; this is why HD recordings do not guarantee great sound, as they are all a long way away from 16 bit performance.
  
 One other point - this is a very complex subject - the number of samples the filter process's is important, and there are factors I do not talk about as it is way too complex. Now it's good to talk about tap length, and for sure increasing the tap length gives you better sound - but this is not the whole story - the oversampling rate, the algorithm used, the coefficient quantization, and other factors are also very important. And there have been some odd things about the M scaler that I still have not fully digested yet - why does depth get so much better with it - this is something I have not experienced before with increasing tap length. Why is the M scaler so much better and much bigger than I expected? One poster (@DaveRedRef-III) PM me about this and said its like a camera getting into focus - and that last adjustment finally everything snaps into place, and the small changes to focus has a much bigger impact than before. I like that analogy. It also implies that 16 bit at 768k is close to ideal - and that is where Davina will tell me for sure.
  
 Rob


----------



## jelt2359

romaz said:


> Here's more information regarding Blu Mk2 that may be helpful for some to know.
> 
> Blu Mk2 will have _both_ a USB and BNC/SPDIF input.  I was afraid USB would be replacing BNC/SPDIF and this will not be the case.  While I'm not sure I would use the BNC/SPDIF input, I believe it's good to have options and the more digital inputs, the better.
> 
> Neither the USB nor the BNC/SPDIF input will be galvanically isolated.  Rob has stated that this is because the DX outputs will already be galvanically isolated and there's no need to have them at the inputs also.  What this means is that only when paired with DAVE will Blu Mk2 (or M-scaler) offer galvanic isolation since only DAVE has DX connections.  Perhaps, another reason to buy the DAVE instead of Hugo2 (or any other DAC) for those interested in an M-scaler.




Thanks. Will the aes in still be available? And does this mean the blu2 will use the dx outputs as inputs?


----------



## romaz

jelt2359 said:


> Thanks. Will the aes in still be available? And does this mean the blu2 will use the dx outputs as inputs?


 
 As an input, AES was never available.  As far as I'm aware, DX in Blu2 are outputs only.  In addition to the dual DX outputs, I believe AES, BNC/SPDIF and Toslink are all still available as outputs.


----------



## romaz

rob watts said:


> Now a conventional interpolation filter (and MQA) is about 6 to 8 bits accurate for the interpolated samples with transients...But with the WTA M scaler we are guaranteed better than 16 bit accuracy for all signals...


 
  
 This is helpful to know that MQA is only this good as there are many who continue to wonder why Chord DACs don't incorporate MQA decoders.  It's also telling that the DACs that benefit greatly from MQA are not even this good to begin with.
  


rob watts said:


> ...this is why HD recordings do not guarantee great sound, as they are all a long way away from 16 bit performance.


 
  
 Rob, can we expect that HD recordings will sound even better compared to 16/44 with M-scaler vs DAVE by itself?
  
  


rob watts said:


> But I am not about to disappear for a year and design a 16M tap filter and then find out that 1M is enough - Davina will tell me exactly how much loss in sound quality we get in going from 768>48>768 using an M scaler; and I will publish these test recordings, so all can hear the losses that the decimation interpolation actually gives us.


 
  
 This journey that you're on is quite exciting but to be honest, I hope Davina tells you that 1M is enough because I don't relish the idea of having to one day upgrade again to a 16M tap M-scaler housed in a giant Red Ref III chassis with a 160A PSU.


----------



## jelt2359

romaz said:


> As an input, AES was never available.  As far as I'm aware, DX in Blu2 are outputs only.  In addition to the dual DX outputs, I believe AES, BNC/SPDIF and Toslink are all still available as outputs.




Gotcha. Sorry I meant dual dx outputs on dave- these are still output only? So the blu2 will connect to the dave via dual regular BNC?

I still don't get how you can have a digital output to an amp, though..


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes HD recordings benefit too; I am listening to Hildegard Von Bingen: Vox Cosmica (96 24b) at the moment - and I have never heard it sound so good. But what it does do is act as a giant leveler; the format is not important as the original recording is way more important; and I get a bigger improvement from RBCD with 1960's recordings, where the simple mic techniques, custom and simple optimized mixing really shines through.
  
 Me too on 1M, I don't relish the design challenges of cascading multiple FPGA's together in an array. The power is less of a problem - each FPGA would have it's own regulator, so we are not talking about multiplying 10A@1V but 2A@5V. Even so a 16M scaler would be 32A at 5V!
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

jelt2359 said:


> romaz said:
> 
> 
> > As an input, AES was never available.  As far as I'm aware, DX in Blu2 are outputs only.  In addition to the dual DX outputs, I believe AES, BNC/SPDIF and Toslink are all still available as outputs.
> ...


 
 The DX outputs will go to my DX input power amps - so these are specially designed digital input power amps that will decode the DX outputs from Dave.
  
 I have started work on the next issue of PCB's for the first power amp.
  
 The benefits of the power amp technology are that they are like Dave's output stage - one single feedback path from digital data to analogue outputs that will drive loudspeakers. The first model will be 20W, then multiple output powers to suit. The key to a single analogue stage is transparency - we only have 4 passive components in the direct signal path, one global feedback loop, and exceptionally low distortion, as the amp structure is a third order analogue noise shaper. The output stage is non-switching so timing recovery is set by the DAC. The early prototypes gave extraordinary depth and detail resolution, due to the simple analogue section.
  
 Rob


----------



## KMann

rob watts said:


> But I am not about to disappear for a year and design a 16M tap filter and then find out that 1M is enough - Davina will tell me exactly how much loss in sound quality we get in going from 768>48>768 using an M scaler; and I will publish these test recordings, so all can hear the losses that the decimation interpolation actually gives us..


 
 Purely for the purpose of evalutaing how much difference  2M or 16M or even more taps would make, will it not be simpler  to compute the coeffecients using the WTA algorithm, and do the 16FS upsampling off-line on a computer using programming tools such as Matlab or Python, store the upsampled files and feed DAVE with 768Khz WTA upsampled version and listen for the difference?
  
 Is the main challenge here is implementing the huge filter on FPGA, or  is it churning out optimal coeffecients for a given tap lenght that gives the most satisfying results?


----------



## analogmusic

I tried MQA software decoded from Tidal from my laptop into DAVE.
  
 Initally was quite impressed, but then I realized (especially on Led Zeppelin's stairway to heaven, and how the levee breaks) something sounded off.
  
 Then it hit me, the transients are too soft, as if the impact of the snare drum and guitar was diminished
  
 I was not impressed with MQA...
  
 How could Bob have unleashed MQA with Tidal, when it needed full hardware decoding to work properly?
  
 Ho Hum
  
 Maybe WTA filter doesn't work 100 % well when some other software has already changed the transients?
  
 Maybe he was worried about Davina and needed to make a move fast?


----------



## Kamil21

rob watts said:


> The DX outputs will go to my DX input power amps - so these are specially designed digital input power amps that will decode the DX outputs from Dave.
> 
> I have started work on the next issue of PCB's for the first power amp.
> 
> ...




Can't wait


----------



## EVOLVIST

@Rob Watts 

Two questions:

1.) If you had a family member on the Watts side (let's say his name is David), who was waffling back and forth on whether to buy the Blu2 in March or wait for the Davina later on, what would you tell David would be the benefit of owning one or the other if he was streaming music into his DAVE? Any bells and whistles, besides the ADC in the Davina that would benefit his listening experience? 

2.) Do, or did, you ever have a family member named David Watts?


----------



## hibo2

I've been reading the Dave posts prior to and after deciding to purchase a Dave.  They have been very informative and helped with the decision. I particularly appreciate the input from the Chord team giving an insight into the technicalities of Dave and the future improvements with new Chord products.  I took a look at their website to better understand  the benefits of the M scaler, part of the upcoming Blue2.  Among the photos displayed, one shows a stack with Blue2 above Dave in the fancy cradles.  Although sonically, Dave has been very satisfying, I have been critical of the aesthetics.  I have over time, come to overlook its eccentricities.  However,
 the photo of Blue2 combined with Dave shows to me an almost complete lack of consistency of design among the various products.  Beyond the sharing of the basic case design; controls, display and decoration are all over the place and look a mess.  Possibly Chord originally intended Dave to be a stand alone product for headfi use.  Now that there is a clear intention that Dave will have dedicated amps and ways to integrate the M scaler tech, I really hope Chord take some time to design boxes that complement each other in a consistent, coherent and practical way so that owners will be proud to have them on display.


----------



## analogmusic

For me Davina is more interesting, as it allows recording of my Vinyl collection, just more features....
  
 Who knows though, maybe Blu2 will finally allow me to pack up the Vinyl's and leave them to my Daughter for her to discover.
  
 I am a fan of rock music and Bon Jovi is releasing his entire back catalogue on Vinyl set ,cost around 500 dollars.
  
 Now I hope some of these are remastered from the original analog tapes, which analog masters used all the way to Vinyl.
  
 if some of this has been recorded to a hi-def master, not sure it is worth it.
  
 When comparing the Vinyl of the latest album, I wasn't that impressed, that is what Rob Watts said about hi-def recording, not really that much of an improvement compared to 44.1/16....


----------



## Rob Watts

evolvist said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> ...


 
 The only thing that Davina will do (in digital mode) that Blu can't is sample rate convert from 768k to 44.1k (say).
  
 Yes my Dad is David - my second name is David - John Franks brother is David...


----------



## Mojo ideas

romaz said:


> This probably will never happen since Hugo2 is meant to be portable and galvanic isolation would eat up battery life.


 
Yes you are correct in that, but it's the supplied power over the USB coming from the source that would be the issue especially from phone's. It's their battery playing time that would suffer
Galvanic isolation is only really necessary with very old, electrically noisy PC's and laptops. This was because they had relatively primitive switching power supplies. These were Operating at relatively low frequencies This area of technology has been going through a revolution over the last six or seven years with vast improvements occurring. There were many more old source products around a few years ago. Modern laptop, pads and PCs just don't have the levels of ground modulation that would cause problems these days and phone's have virtually none at all so because Robs DAC technology is immuned also to Incoming jitter we felt it was not necessary to include galvanic isolation into Hugo2


----------



## lovethatsound

hibo2 said:


> I've been reading the Dave posts prior to and after deciding to purchase a Dave.  They have been very informative and helped with the decision. I particularly appreciate the input from the Chord team giving an insight into the technicalities of Dave and the future improvements with new Chord products.  I took a look at their website to better understand  the benefits of the M scaler, part of the upcoming Blue2.  Among the photos displayed, one shows a stack with Blue2 above Dave in the fancy cradles.  Although sonically, Dave has been very satisfying, I have been critical of the aesthetics.  I have over time, come to overlook its eccentricities.  However,
> the photo of Blue2 combined with Dave shows to me an almost complete lack of consistency of design among the various products.  Beyond the sharing of the basic case design; controls, display and decoration are all over the place and look a mess.  Possibly Chord originally intended Dave to be a stand alone product for headfi use.  Now that there is a clear intention that Dave will have dedicated amps and ways to integrate the M scaler tech, I really hope Chord take some time to design boxes that complement each other in a consistent, coherent and practical way so that owners will be proud to have them on display.


As far as aesthetics are concerned,i think that's down to the individual who's looking.I personal like the way dave and the blu look,most hifi equipment just look like boxes to me,so for me it,makes a refreshing change to see something look a little different.As they say Beauty is in the EYE of the Beholder☺


----------



## AndrewOld

mojo ideas said:


> Yes you are correct in that, but it's the supplied power over the USB coming from the source that would be the issue especially from phone's. It's their battery playing time that would suffer
> Galvanic isolation is only really necessary with very old, electrically noisy PC's and laptops. This was because they had relatively primitive switching power supplies. These were Operating at relatively low frequencies This area of technology has been going through a revolution over the last six or seven years with vast improvements occurring. There were many more old source products around a few years ago. Modern laptop, pads and PCs just don't have the levels of ground modulation that would cause problems these days and phone's have virtually none at all so because Robs DAC technology is immuned also to Incoming jitter we felt it was not necessary to include galvanic isolation into Hugo2




If that is the case, why does Rob himself use his DAVE with either an Audioquest Jitterbug or from batteries? Does he not have a modern laptop?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I think Chord has a very bold and distinct design identity. As said before beauty is in the eyes of the beholder but two things you cannot argue with is that it gives a "built to last" impression and secondly that impression turns out to be well justified.

I'd also add that their product design is distinctively Chord. It shows imagination and that goes hand in hand with the work Rob does. Chord doesn't follow the field.


----------



## gearspro

grandfathertime said:


> Lots of us see Hugo 2 as mini DAVE and are counting the days until it's released!!



Thans for the advice.


----------



## gearspro

romaz said:


> It depends on what your budget is and what functionality you're looking for.  If you are looking for a desktop setup and want the absolute best resolution DAC/amp that can drive most headphones extremely well, it's hard to do better than DAVE.
> 
> If you don't mind a bit of compromise in performance but in return, you get portability while also saving enough money to buy a few more headphones, like ECWL has said, it would be very hard to beat Hugo2.  Personally, I would choose Hugo2 over TT today.



I believe that I should buy a cheaper dac and better headphones. The thing is tha dave looks so awesome and so good reviews.


----------



## gearspro

romaz said:


> It depends on what your budget is and what functionality you're looking for.  If you are looking for a desktop setup and want the absolute best resolution DAC/amp that can drive most headphones extremely well, it's hard to do better than DAVE.
> 
> If you don't mind a bit of compromise in performance but in return, you get portability while also saving enough money to buy a few more headphones, like ECWL has said, it would be very hard to beat Hugo2.  Personally, I would choose Hugo2 over TT today.



Or I should buy dave and save money for better headphones. ,,Z. I prefer desktop installation. I believe dave is better than hugo2, that's why and the price is different.


----------



## JaZZ

gearspro said:


> romaz said:
> 
> 
> > It depends on what your budget is and what functionality you're looking for.  If you are looking for a desktop setup and want the absolute best resolution DAC/amp that can drive most headphones extremely well, it's hard to do better than DAVE.
> ...


 
  
 I would also have recommended to go with the Hugo² and a TOTL headphone, but if you insist in the DAVE: The HD 800 (modified and/or equalized) would make an excellent combo and wouldn't add much to the expense.


----------



## jelt2359

jazz said:


> I would also have recommended to go with the Hugo² and a TOTL headphone, but if you insist in the DAVE: The HD 800 (modified and/or equalized) would make an excellent combo and wouldn't add much to the expense.


 
 Personally, Hugo2 + Utopia or Dave + HD800/S (just to give an example), I'd go for the latter. This is not an indictment of any of the items in the chain (heck, I have not even heard the Hugo2), but the HD800/S and the Dave is an incredible combi that is really really end-game. The HD800/S remains one of my favourite headphones, especially modded.


----------



## ubs28

I would personally go for the Focal Utopia first and then later upgrade to the Chord Dave if you got the money. Then you can use the Hugo 2 as your portable DAC while the Chord Dave will be your home based DAC.


----------



## EVOLVIST

rob watts said:


> The only thing that Davina will do (in digital mode) that Blu can't is sample rate convert from 768k to 44.1k (say).
> 
> Yes my Dad is David - my second name is David - John Franks brother is David...




I know this is incredibly juvenile of me, but I just couldn't help myself, since I've been listening to a lot of this with my DAVE... 

[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/NFo7khMeUAw[/VIDEO]

So, are we saying that fed a 24/192 file in digital mode, that Davina can downsample the file to 16/44.1 without decrementing the sound?


----------



## Rob Watts

No - but hopefully the reduction in SQ will be small - that's the intent. Its very much easier to decimate to 48k from 192k, and this should be relatively transparent; but going to 44.1 from 192 means M scaling it to 104.25 MHz then decimating back to 44.1 kHz. Non integer SRC is very tough to do transparently, and conventionally they make a poor job of it with large amounts of distortion and noise and timing errors.


----------



## gearspro

romaz said:


> It depends on what your budget is and what functionality you're looking for.  If you are looking for a desktop setup and want the absolute best resolution DAC/amp that can drive most headphones extremely well, it's hard to do better than DAVE.
> 
> If you don't mind a bit of compromise in performance but in return, you get portability while also saving enough money to buy a few more headphones, like ECWL has said, it would be very hard to beat Hugo2.  Personally, I would choose Hugo2 over TT today.



Thank you for your advice. I make my research and with the same amount of money I can buy hugo2 , I found it with 2.1K here https://www.hiendplay.com/product/chord-hugo-2/, and any pair of headphones I want. And save money. I am not sure adout the headphones yet. Maybe Audeze, maybe grado, I don't know. Any advice? I listen rock music and sometimes jazz.


----------



## analogmusic

one of the recent Daft Punk album was recorded on analog tape and digital, and it was mastered on 88.2 (as probably decimation back to 44.1 sounds better)


----------



## Deftone

hibo2 said:


> I've been reading the Dave posts prior to and after deciding to purchase a Dave.  They have been very informative and helped with the decision. I particularly appreciate the input from the Chord team giving an insight into the technicalities of Dave and the future improvements with new Chord products.  I took a look at their website to better understand  the benefits of the M scaler, part of the upcoming Blue2.  Among the photos displayed, one shows a stack with Blue2 above Dave in the fancy cradles.  Although sonically, Dave has been very satisfying, I have been critical of the aesthetics.  I have over time, come to overlook its eccentricities.  However,
> the photo of Blue2 combined with Dave shows to me an almost complete lack of consistency of design among the various products.  Beyond the sharing of the basic case design; controls, display and decoration are all over the place and look a mess.  Possibly Chord originally intended Dave to be a stand alone product for headfi use.  Now that there is a clear intention that Dave will have dedicated amps and ways to integrate the M scaler tech, I really hope Chord take some time to design boxes that complement each other in a consistent, coherent and practical way so that owners will be proud to have them on display.




Each to their own dude, I think the blu2 Dave combo in black on the choral stand looks stunning !


----------



## rkt31

rob watts said:


> Yes HD recordings benefit too; I am listening to Hildegard Von Bingen: Vox Cosmica (96 24b) at the moment - and I have never heard it sound so good. But what it does do is act as a giant leveler; the format is not important as the original recording is way more important; and I get a bigger improvement from RBCD with 1960's recordings, where the simple mic techniques, custom and simple optimized mixing really shines through.
> 
> Me too on 1M, I don't relish the design challenges of cascading multiple FPGA's together in an array. The power is less of a problem - each FPGA would have it's own regulator, so we are not talking about multiplying 10A@1V but 2A@5V. Even so a 16M scaler would be 32A at 5V!
> 
> Rob


 
 you are right. the original recording quality is way too more important. i also listened to vox cosmica album in 24 96 ( i liked track 2 very much ) through mojo. i never listened such a transparent recording before. ( i have so many audiophile high res recordings of a number of audiophile labels ) the sound of bells is just like listening the real bells in front of you. one could imagine how this recording would sound with dave and M scaler .


----------



## EVOLVIST

rkt31 said:


> you are right. the original recording quality is way too more important. i also listened to vox cosmica album in 24 96 ( i liked track 2 very much ) through mojo. i never listened such a transparent recording before. ( i have so many audiophile high res recordings of a number of audiophile labels ) the sound of bells is just like listening the real bells in front of you. one could imagine how this recording would sound with dave and M scaler .


 

 Are we talking about this recording?
  
http://www.carpediem-records.de/en/vox-cosmica


----------



## hibo2

Maybe I'm too old to be a dude, too set in my ideas to appreciate Chord's design efforts that puts me in a minority of one.  It seems Chord has hit their target market by design rather than despite it.  Viva la difference.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I think Chord amps look fantastic looking from above in a darkened room.

It's a great design in the cold light of day but magical in a low light room.


----------



## Rob Watts

evolvist said:


> rkt31 said:
> 
> 
> > you are right. the original recording quality is way too more important. i also listened to vox cosmica album in 24 96 ( i liked track 2 very much ) through mojo. i never listened such a transparent recording before. ( i have so many audiophile high res recordings of a number of audiophile labels ) the sound of bells is just like listening the real bells in front of you. one could imagine how this recording would sound with dave and M scaler .
> ...


 
 Yes - its my best find from 2016.


----------



## EVOLVIST

rob watts said:


> Yes - its my best find from 2016.




Very good. I love ancient instruments.


----------



## halloweenman

mojo ideas said:


> Yes you are correct in that, but it's the supplied power over the USB coming from the source that would be the issue especially from phone's. It's their battery playing time that would suffer
> Galvanic isolation is only really necessary with very old, electrically noisy PC's and laptops. This was because they had relatively primitive switching power supplies. These were Operating at relatively low frequencies This area of technology has been going through a revolution over the last six or seven years with vast improvements occurring. There were many more old source products around a few years ago. Modern laptop, pads and PCs just don't have the levels of ground modulation that would cause problems these days and phone's have virtually none at all so because Robs DAC technology is immuned also to Incoming jitter we felt it was not necessary to include galvanic isolation into Hugo2




This seems to be the case. My new long life battery powered Apple Macbook I use as a source is completely silent, passively cooled, no fans or spinning drives etc, and is very energy efficient. I would be interested in any measurements between this laptop and say an iPhone and an older bettery powered laptop to see what the different noise levels out of the USB are to prove galvanic isolation is not required.


----------



## gnomen

rob watts said:


> Yes - its my best find from 2016.


 

 Wonderful performances.  Thank you!
  
 If you like that, you may like Arnessen's _Magnificat_  http://www.2l.no/pages/album/106.html
  
 The people at 2L have been doing amazing recordings for several years now.
  
 And for jazz, the dutch site _Sound Liaison_ does some excellent boutique recordings to the highest possible standards http://www.soundliaison.com/
  
 Would be very interesting to see what both producers could do on equipment with the potential of Davina.
  
 Cheers


----------



## a1uc

Looking to use my dave with some Omega desktop speakers , whats the best cable configuration and place to purchase ? Im looking at the 3's or 3i Im guessing the 3's would be best for desk use


----------



## gearspro

a1uc said:


> Looking to use my dave with some Omega desktop speakers
> What's the best hook up and a good place to purchase these cables


 
 When I was searching for Dave I found a website hiendplay.com and they have cables also. Crystal Cable and some others. Ask for better price. They made for me.


----------



## sdwong

gearspro said:


> When I was searching for Dave I found a website hiendplay.com and they have cables also. Crystal Cable and some others. Ask for better price. They made for me.




How is the reputation of this store? I am thinking of ordering!


----------



## gearspro

sdwong said:


> How is the reputation of this store? I am thinking of ordering!



Looks fine.


----------



## hibo2

Hiend play sell Chord but don't appear to be Chord dealer or distributor.


----------



## Mojo ideas

hibo2 said:


> Hiend play sell Chord but don't appear to be Chord dealer or distributor.


 The Name is a front for a company in Limassol Cypress. We have no distributor there or in Greece it seems to be a rather strange set up that says it has product but we doubt it has. It seems to be something of an attack on us as other products on their site are not heavily discounted. So please do not deal with them they don't appear to be honestly trading.


----------



## hiendplay

Hello,
Hiendplay speaking.
A friend told me about this conversation.
I am really sorry for that.
First of all no one says that we are distributors or dealers in Greece or in Cyprus. We are brokers. We are recieving products from all over the world, and our first priority is to keep our customers satisfied.
Thank you


----------



## hiendplay

mojo ideas said:


> The Name is a front for a company in Limassol Cypress. We have no distributor there or in Greece it seems to be a rather strange set up that says it has product but we doubt it has. It seems to be something of an attack on us as other products on their site are not heavily discounted. So please do not deal with them they don't appear to be honestly trading.



Hello,
Hiendplay speaking.
A friend told me about this conversation.
I am really sorry for that.
First of all no one says that we are distributors or dealers in Greece or in Cyprus. We are brokers. We are recieving products from all over the world, and our first priority is to keep our customers satisfied.
Thank you


----------



## EVOLVIST

evolvist said:


> I use the SonicTransport i5 -> mRendu (powered by LPS-1)-> Curious Cable link -> DAVE. I'm very happy with the results.
> 
> I just ordered a couple of Jitterbugs for schitz & giggles. We'll see how that pans out.




An update. I know it's been said that the Jitterbug works with DAVE, but that's plugged right into a laptop, right? Plugged between my Curious Cable and my mRendu, though, it sounded a little muffled. That sucked. 

Now, way on the other end, between my NAS drive and the SonicTransport i5,the Jitterbug actually increased the overall SQ by maybe 1%. It was nice. Go figure. 

I have an extra Jitterbug now. They say I can run two in a sequence. I'll try that next.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

evolvist said:


> An update. I know it's been said that the Jitterbug works with DAVE, but that's plugged right into a laptop, right? Plugged between my Curious Cable and my mRendu, though, it sounded a little muffled. That sucked.
> 
> Now, way on the other end, between my NAS drive and the SonicTransport i5,the Jitterbug actually increased the overall SQ *by maybe 1%*. It was nice. Go figure.
> 
> I have an extra Jitterbug now. They say I can run two in a sequence. I'll try that next.


 
  
 1%!!
  





  




  
 I'm kidding of course.  At this level every iota of performance is important and I really do appreciate you sharing your findings.  I honestly mean no disrespect.  Your post made me chuckle because I so understand where you are coming from.


----------



## Mojo ideas

hiendplay said:


> Hello,
> Hiendplay speaking.
> A friend told me about this conversation.
> I am really sorry for that.
> ...


 Well perhaps you'd kindly like to broker some information about where you obtained your units out of region then, I'd happily pay you for that information.


----------



## Sonic77

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73tGe3JE5IU​
  
 He's online right now and waiting for his answer.
  
  
 Quote:


mojo ideas said:


> Well perhaps you'd kindly like to broker some information about where you obtained your units out of region then, I'd happily pay you for that information.


 

 ​


----------



## EVOLVIST

bigfatpaulie said:


> 1%!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Haha! Yeah, I don't know. It's difficult to quantify these things. 0.5%? 0.75%? It made an audible difference for the positive.
  
 What I really need to do is run shorter cable into my study, but I don't know if that's happening anytime soon.


----------



## Sonic77

Hey guys and gals, check this out. Dates and prices U.S. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 http://www.bluebirdmusic.com/news/chord-announces-poly-blu-mkii-and-hugo2.html


----------



## Mavwong

That's the Chord I know, I will be ordering too. Don't mind the extra options to spin CD occasionally but my main play will still be streaming.
  
  
  
 Quote:


mojo ideas said:


> Well my dear chap Rob and I have had a few chats about this issue since The Ces Launch and together with Matt back at Chord we think we have a good solution we are scrapping the current boards still in manufacture and Rob has been designing a new main circuit board that will be going for express manufacture in the U.K. So we won't loose any time. The new board has the additional High Speed USB input circuitry you are all wanting. Yes we admit we got it wrong to omit the USB on the design as was. However we are pleased that we can announce that all production units will now come with USB input too.


----------



## EVOLVIST

sonic77 said:


> Hey guys and gals, check this out. Dates and prices U.S. :bigsmile_face:
> 
> 
> http://www.bluebirdmusic.com/news/chord-announces-poly-blu-mkii-and-hugo2.html




Very good. No mention of USB yet, but that's to be expected. Big yay!


----------



## romaz

mojo ideas said:


> Well perhaps you'd kindly like to broker some information about where you obtained your units out of region then, I'd happily pay you for that information.


 
 John, here's an interesting ad by this broker on Audiogon here in the U.S. for Hugo2.  If you read through the ad, the potential buyer is made to believe Hugo2 is already shipping:
  
 https://www.audiogon.com/listings/da-converters-chord-electronics-ltd-hugo-2-new-the-brand-new-dac-headphone-amp-from-chord-2017-01-29-digital-54351-marbache
  
 What is interesting is they seem to have a good transaction rating with their customers but of the 12 positive feedback they have received in the past 12 months, 6 of them come from one customer who appears to be a friend of the merchant.  Red flags, for sure.


----------



## romaz

a1uc said:


> Looking to use my dave with some Omega desktop speakers , whats the best cable configuration and place to purchase ? Im looking at the 3's or 3i Im guessing the 3's would be best for desk use


 
  
 Rodney, I would say bypass the 3 series and go for the Compact Alnico Monitor which can be custom made by Louis Chochos to fit your desk.  It is a considerable upgrade to the Super 3 or 3i.  It can be driven directly by DAVE and the pairing is a match made in heaven although you will want to find a good fast subwoofer to add to the mix.
  
 As for cables, you will want to get some adapter to allow you to directly connect a pair of RCA interconnects to a pair of speaker cables.  There are many who can make you such an adapter.  There are a wealth of great cables to choose from that will sound good but it shouldn't come as any surprise if I suggest that you audition the High Fidelity Cables.  In this application, they really really shine (even their entry-level Reveal line) and HFC can also make you the adapters that you need.  Everything can be auditioned with a money back guarantee.


----------



## Mavwong

I still think galvanic iso from the very beginning will benefit most. In fact when I test the Dave, I was so impress with the sound quality I got from just using Iphone direct to DAVE, it tells us the USB input on the DAVE is really something very advance compare to other's brand DAC. And USB input quality is something I always test when I consider a DAC to purchase.
  
 Please go back a year ago, understand why Dave success, other than the 160k+ tab, it is the USB input that set Dave apart from other DAC in the market.
  
 As with my own experiment, pc source RF is really something need to avoid, thus galvanic iso on the USB input for the Blu2 would be as important as with be on the Dave.
  
 Mav
  
  
 Quote:


romaz said:


> Here's more information regarding Blu Mk2 that may be helpful for some to know.
> 
> Blu Mk2 will have _both_ a USB and BNC/SPDIF input.  I was afraid USB would be replacing BNC/SPDIF and this will not be the case.  While I'm not sure I would use the BNC/SPDIF input, I believe it's good to have options and the more digital inputs, the better.
> 
> Neither the USB nor the BNC/SPDIF input will be galvanically isolated.  Rob has stated that this is because the DX outputs will already be galvanically isolated and there's no need to have them at the inputs also.  What this means is that only when paired with DAVE will Blu Mk2 (or M-scaler) offer galvanic isolation since only DAVE has DX connections.  Perhaps, another reason to buy the DAVE instead of Hugo2 (or any other DAC) for those interested in an M-scaler.


----------



## romaz

mavwong said:


> I still think galvanic iso from the very beginning will benefit most. In fact when I test the Dave, I was so impress with the sound quality I got from just using Iphone direct to DAVE, it tells us the USB input on the DAVE is really something very advance compare to other's brand DAC. And USB input quality is something I always test when I consider a DAC to purchase.
> 
> As with my own experiment, pc source RF is really something need to avoid, thus galvanic iso on the USB input for the Blu2 would be as important as with be on the Dave.
> 
> Mav


 
  
 I'm sure people who buy a Blu2 and who own a DAVE will test your theory out by applying their favorite isolation techniques and draw their conclusions.  I have thought about this also which is why I posed the question to Rob.
  
 Rob's response was that as long as you have galvanic isolation before you hit the analog stage, you will be fine and as I look back at my own experiences, I would have to agree.
  
 People on other forums talk about the significant impact of network isolation transformers, optical FMCs, leakage current produced by the PSUs that power the music server, Intona, etc., and I have to say that I have gone through all of these things and they have had a minimal impact at best, certainly nothing so great where I have felt them to be necessary or of high value and so I have removed all such devices from my setup.  I believe that is how good DAVE's galvanic isolation is on USB.
  
 With Blu Mk2, galvanic isolation will still occur before the signal hits DAVE in the same way as DAVE's USB input.   The benefit of having galvanic isolation at the DX outputs is that it benefits all the inputs including CD playback.  It further strips away RF introduced by M-scaler's 10A switching PSU.  And so with Blu Mk2, as I have thought about it, the only benefit USB will probably have over the SPDIF input will be convenience and a more simplified chain for those of us who don't want to be bothered by a USB-to-SPDIF converter as well as bandwidth since Blu Mk2's USB input will be capable of DXD and DSD512 playback.  
  
 Obviously, this galvanic isolation applies only when connected to DAVE.


----------



## jelt2359

romaz said:


> I'm sure people who buy a Blu2 and who own a DAVE will test your theory out by applying their favorite isolation techniques and draw their conclusions.  I have thought about this also which is why I posed the question to Rob.
> 
> Rob's response was that as long as you have galvanic isolation before you hit the analog stage, you will be fine and as I look back at my own experiences, I would have to agree.
> 
> ...


 
  
 BTW I'm a bit confused, does this mean the Dave must use DX inputs to make full use of the Blu2? Not a problem, but I was under the impression the Dave only had DX Outputs. Which of the inputs is this DX Input, if we cycle through the Dave's input menu?
  
 Edit: Yes I just checked the manual (http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Dave-User-Manual.pdf) page 2, and it definitely says 4x DX Digital Outputs. I don't see any DX Digital Inputs...


----------



## romaz

jelt2359 said:


> BTW I'm a bit confused, does this mean the Dave must use DX inputs to make full use of the Blu2? Not a problem, but I was under the impression the Dave only had DX Outputs. Which of the inputs is this DX Input, if we cycle through the Dave's input menu?


 
 Yes, DAVE _must_ use M-scaler's dual DX connectors to achieve 1M taps and only DAVE has such connectors which is why I find it curious that people are writing off the DAVE as a "has been" or as "obsolete" with the arrival of M-scaler when only DAVE can fully harness M-scaler's power.  DAVE's 4 DX connectors can be used as inputs or outputs.  One scenario would be two for M-scaler and two for monoblock digital amps.  I suppose you could use two for Blu2 and two for Davina.  At least, this has been my understanding.


----------



## jelt2359

mavwong said:


> I still think galvanic iso from the very beginning will benefit most. In fact when I test the Dave, I was so impress with the sound quality I got from just using Iphone direct to DAVE, it tells us the USB input on the DAVE is really something very advance compare to other's brand DAC. And USB input quality is something I always test when I consider a DAC to purchase.
> 
> As with my own experiment, pc source RF is really something need to avoid, thus galvanic iso on the USB input for the Blu2 would be as important as with be on the Dave.
> 
> Mav


 
 I also echo this. Just need to replicate the USB port design from the Dave.


----------



## romaz

jelt2359 said:


> I also echo this. Just need to replicate the USB port design from the Dave.


 
  
 I believe you missed what I said about Rob's reasoning on why he didn't include galvanic isolation at this input on Blu2.  It's probably a bit premature to be thinking we know more than Rob about where galvanic isolation should be placed on Blu2.


----------



## Mavwong

I no means disrespect Rob design philosophy. In fact, like many of us, we still think Rob gave us the best DAC money can buy for many of us. And I still stand by my option, Rob knows what he is doing to gives the best sound down to silicon level.
  
 Please go back a year ago, understand why Dave success, other than the 160k+ tab, it is the USB input that set Dave apart from other DAC in the market.
  
 As with Dave, when Rob mention Dave sound exactly the same regardless what usb cable or upper chain source used. We all heard it, it does makes a diff what source you use and what USB cable we place in between our source and DAVE, even with the almighty USB input on the DAVE. So every stange of isolation counts.
  
  
  
 Quote:


romaz said:


> I believe you missed what I said about Rob's reasoning on why he didn't include galvanic isolation at this input on Blu2.  It's probably a bit premature to be thinking we know more than Rob about where galvanic isolation should be placed on Blu2.


----------



## romaz

> As with Dave, when Rob mention Dave sound exactly the same regardless what usb cable or upper chain source used. We all heard it, it does makes a diff what source you use and what USB cable we place in between our source and DAVE, even with the almighty USB input on the DAVE. So every stange of isolation counts.


 
  
 This is true but I am convinced these differences have less to do with DC isolation (which is what galvanic isolation accomplishes).  As you stated, even with DAVE's excellent galvanic isolation at its USB input, sources still can sound different and so why would adding the same galvanic isolation at Blu Mk2's USB input be any different?  I think that sources sounding different (better) has more to do with other issues like device impedance leading to better responsiveness.  If you look at the microRendu or sMS-200, they offer no galvanic isolation and yet they make a very significant difference.  The Uptone Audio LPS-1 is suppose to offer galvanic isolation against ground and against leakage current and yet my Paul Hynes SR7, which is connected to ground, sounds better than the LPS-1.  I believe one of the best 3rd party USB galvanic isolators you can buy is the Intona Industrial and having tried this with the DAVE, it resulted in no improvement.  In my own experience with the various isolation techniques I mentioned above, they made none to minimal difference and sometimes, they led to worse SQ.


----------



## romaz

jelt2359 said:


> Edit: Yes I just checked the manual (http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Dave-User-Manual.pdf) page 2, and it definitely says 4x DX Digital Outputs. I don't see any DX Digital Inputs...


 
  
 This is a typo and the manual has a few (including DAVE's output impedance).  My guess is that when DAVE was designed, the concept of an M-scaler _possibly_ was not in Rob's consciousness whereas his digital amps were.


----------



## Hubert H

romaz said:


> John, here's an interesting ad by this broker on Audiogon here in the U.S. for Hugo2.  If you read through the ad, the potential buyer is made to believe Hugo2 is already shipping:
> 
> https://www.audiogon.com/listings/da-converters-chord-electronics-ltd-hugo-2-new-the-brand-new-dac-headphone-amp-from-chord-2017-01-29-digital-54351-marbache
> 
> What is interesting is they seem to have a good transaction rating with their customers but of the 12 positive feedback they have received in the past 12 months, 6 of them come from one customer who appears to be a friend of the merchant.  Red flags, for sure.



 


I assume that the photos are copyright as well...


----------



## Hubert H

romaz said:


> Rodney, I would say bypass the 3 series and go for the Compact Alnico Monitor which can be custom made by Louis Chochos to fit your desk.  It is a considerable upgrade to the Super 3 or 3i.  It can be driven directly by DAVE and the pairing is a match made in heaven although you will want to find a good fast subwoofer to add to the mix.
> 
> As for cables, you will want to get some adapter to allow you to directly connect a pair of RCA interconnects to a pair of speaker cables.  There are many who can make you such an adapter.  There are a wealth of great cables to choose from that will sound good but it shouldn't come as any surprise if I suggest that you audition the High Fidelity Cables.  In this application, they really really shine (even their entry-level Reveal line) and HFC can also make you the adapters that you need.  Everything can be auditioned with a money back guarantee.



 


Just a question, if the speakers can be custom made why bother with speaker terminals at all, why not run direct from speaker terminals to an RCA connector using one's favourite speaker cable?

Convenience will take a knock and it certainly wouldn't degrade the sound but would be as pure a connection as can be - unless the Dave end is soldered to Dave's board


----------



## Mavwong

I am not sure about sms-200, the urendu does have galvanic isolation. but at the network input point.
  
  
  
 Quote:


romaz said:


> This is true but I am convinced these differences have less to do with DC isolation (which is what galvanic isolation accomplishes).  As you stated, even with DAVE's excellent galvanic isolation at its USB input, sources still can sound different and so why would adding the same galvanic isolation at Blu Mk2's USB input be any different?  I think that sources sounding different (better) has more to do with other issues like device impedance leading to better responsiveness.  If you look at the microRendu or sMS-200, they offer no galvanic isolation and yet they make a very significant difference.  The Uptone Audio LPS-1 is suppose to offer galvanic isolation against ground and against leakage current and yet my Paul Hynes SR7, which is connected to ground, sounds better than the LPS-1.  I believe one of the best 3rd party USB galvanic isolators you can buy is the Intona Industrial and having tried this with the DAVE, it resulted in no improvement.  In my own experience with the various isolation techniques I mentioned above, they made none to minimal difference and sometimes, they led to worse SQ.


----------



## ecwl

romaz said:


> This is a typo and the manual has a few (including DAVE's output impedance).  My guess is that when DAVE was designed, the concept of an M-scaler _possibly_ was not in Rob's consciousness whereas his digital amps were.




Actually Romaz, if you look at your own photo of the Blu 2 and DAVE connection, it seems that Blu 2 is connected to DAVE via BNC3 (& presumably BNC4 for 1 million taps) input. I believe the DX inputs is just using two BNC inputs. The DX outputs are still the DX outputs. I think Chord has always designed their DACs this way (as this was the case with my old QBD76 too) where you can use two adjacent BNC inputs as DX inputs.


----------



## Rob Watts

Just to clarify - the M scaler connects to the dual BNC inputs (BNC 1 and 2 or BNC 3 and 4). The DX outputs are always dual BNC 705/768 kHz, SPDIF but with one important difference - the volume control data is in the user data of the SPDIF, together with a preamble in the user data identifying the data as DX. 
  
 Rob


----------



## Hubert H

Rob, does that mean 2 DX connections per channel/mono digital amp and does that also mean that a stereo amp isn't going to happen but if it did it would be 4 connections?


----------



## Rob Watts

No only one cable per ch. I put two identical outputs in case one wanted to bi-amp. The first amp is stereo, but can be run as a mono-bloc too.


----------



## romaz

ecwl said:


> Actually Romaz, if you look at your own photo of the Blu 2 and DAVE connection, it seems that Blu 2 is connected to DAVE via BNC3 (& presumably BNC4 for 1 million taps) input. I believe the DX inputs is just using two BNC inputs. The DX outputs are still the DX outputs. I think Chord has always designed their DACs this way (as this was the case with my old QBD76 too) where you can use two adjacent BNC inputs as DX inputs.


 
  


rob watts said:


> Just to clarify - the M scaler connects to the dual BNC inputs (BNC 1 and 2 or BNC 3 and 4). The DX outputs are always dual BNC 705/768 kHz, SPDIF but with one important difference - the volume control data is in the user data of the SPDIF, together with a preamble in the user data identifying the data as DX.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Thanks for clarifying.  It appears I have misunderstood this!  The thought then crossed my mind that another DAC with dual SPDIF inputs could potentially tap into M-scaler's full potential but then for this to work, they would have to be usable simultaneously and in aggregate and I know of no DAC that has this capability.


----------



## romaz

mavwong said:


> I am not sure about sms-200, the urendu does have galvanic isolation. but at the network input point.


 
  
 Yes, the microRendu is galvanically isolated at its ethernet input and so is the sMS-200 but this also applies to my Mac Mini, Intel NUC, Mac Pro, my laptops and all things that have a hardwired network connection.  As far as I know, John Swenson didn't go to any extraordinary lengths to incorporate an special galvanic isolation in the microRendu beyond what the ethernet protocol calls for which is why he also added "ethernet filtering" but this is nothing unique as even my Mac Mini offers this.
  
 I am not a networking expert but it has been my understanding that the ethernet protocol has called for transformer coupling dating back to 10base-T and so by definition, all modern ethernet connections are galvanically isolated (usually to several hundred volts) and so this is a key advantage that audio over ethernet has over other transmission protocols.  This transformer-coupling spec was introduced not for the benefit of audio but because ethernet can support fairly long runs such that equipment on different ends can be powered by different power distribution networks within a building or even different buildings which could then lead to a significant ground offset between ethernet nodes.  As we know, however, this transformer coupling does nothing for RF created by the device itself which can be significant and why DAVE's galvanic isolation at the USB input is still very important.
  
 As we also both know, a microRendu is superior to a basic PC even though both have galvanic isolation at the ethernet input and despite DAVE's galvanic isolation at USB and so this is what I meant about the differences being due to more than just galvanic isolation.  There are many on other threads and other forums who talk of even more robust network galvanic isolation devices (to the degree of many kV of isolation) leading to even more SQ improvements.  These devices would include the GISO by Acousense, the Acoustic Revive RL-1 or the SOtM iSO-CAT6 and I happen to own the SOtM iSO-CAT6.  When used with my other DACs including a Oppo BDP-105, there is a small but noticeable improvement, worthwhile enough that I bought it last year.  When used with my DAVE, it offers no perceptible improvement and I have documented this several times in the past.
  
 I guess what you are trying to say is that it doesn't hurt to have multiple points of galvanic isolation but does it make a difference?  Rob suggests that it won't with his design and my experience tends to support his claim but I suppose we will be able to answer that question for ourselves with the Blu Mk2 soon enough.


----------



## lovethatsound

romaz said:


> Thanks for clarifying.  It appears I have misunderstood this!  The thought then crossed my mind that another DAC with dual SPDIF inputs could potentially tap into M-scaler's full potential but then for this to work, they would have to be usable simultaneously and in aggregate and I know of no DAC that has this capability.


QBD76


----------



## Articnoise

Okay with a single BNC S/PDIF it’s possible to transfer 88.2 kHz, 176 kHz, and 352.8 kHz to any DAC. With a dual BNC S/PDIF it’s possible to transfer 176.4 kHz, 352.8 kHz, and 705.6 kHz to the DAVE. But how is the audio signal divided between the two BNC S/PDIF? Left – right, FR or some other way?


----------



## jelt2359

articnoise said:


> Okay with a single BNC S/PDIF it’s possible to transfer 88.2 kHz, 176 kHz, and 352.8 kHz to any DAC. With a dual BNC S/PDIF it’s possible to transfer 176.4 kHz, 352.8 kHz, and 705.6 kHz to the DAVE. But how is the audio signal divided between the two BNC S/PDIF? Left – right, FR or some other way?


 
 i'm not sure that's how it works. The Dave is still the DAC. There is no audio signal being passed, only digital data, between the Blu2 and the Dave.


----------



## Articnoise

jelt2359 said:


> i'm not sure that's how it works. The Dave is still the DAC. There is no audio signal being passed, only digital data, between the Blu2 and the Dave.


 
  

 Okay, how is the digital data divided between the two BNC S/PDIF?


----------



## romaz

romaz said:


>


 
  


hubert h said:


> romaz said:
> 
> 
> > Rodney, I would say bypass the 3 series and go for the Compact Alnico Monitor which can be custom made by Louis Chochos to fit your desk.  It is a considerable upgrade to the Super 3 or 3i.  It can be driven directly by DAVE and the pairing is a match made in heaven although you will want to find a good fast subwoofer to add to the mix.
> ...


 
  
 I had not thought of this before but this is an excellent suggestion to have custom speakers built with RCA inputs instead of speaker binding posts!


----------



## Hubert H

romaz said:


> I had not thought of this before but this is an excellent suggestion to have custom speakers built with RCA inputs instead of speaker binding posts!



 


I was thinking beyond that 

The speaker cable connected to the driver and then run through the cabinet and terminated on the RCAs that are plugged into the Dave. This will have a cable tail from the speaker but if they were ever moved then you could a get male to female RCA connecting cable.

But your idea is good too, I didn't think of putting RCAs as the speaker termination.

It would be interesting to run a couple of metres of pure silver cable from driver to Dave using something like this - http://www.tempoelectric.com/cables.htm#foot

Maybe you can test and let us know


----------



## romaz

hubert h said:


> romaz said:
> 
> 
> > I had not thought of this before but this is an excellent suggestion to have custom speakers built with RCA inputs instead of speaker binding posts!
> ...


 
 Very forward thinking!


----------



## romaz

Roon 1.3 officially releases today and this is what I am most excited about:
  
 "We've added a whole family of audio and DSP features with a 64-bit audio pipeline, including dynamic range analysis, EQ, upsampling, crossfeed for headphones, and adjustments for headroom as well as corrections for speaker phase and delay."
  
 Now, finally I'll get to try out @JaZZ's EQ settings on my HE-1000.


----------



## maxh22

romaz said:


> Roon 1.3 officially releases today and this is what I am most excited about:
> 
> "We've added a whole family of audio and DSP features with a 64-bit audio pipeline, including dynamic range analysis, EQ, upsampling, crossfeed for headphones, and adjustments for headroom as well as corrections for speaker phase and delay."
> 
> Now, finally I'll get to try out @JaZZ's EQ settings on my HE-1000.


 
 OMG this is amazing! Thanks for sharing this romaz. I was literally googling when Roon was going to add EQ this morning and now they finally have. Impeccable timing! The extra features look interesting too!


----------



## EVOLVIST

romaz said:


> Roon 1.3 officially releases today and this is what I am most excited about:
> 
> "We've added a whole family of audio and DSP features with a 64-bit audio pipeline, including dynamic range analysis, EQ, upsampling, crossfeed for headphones, and adjustments for headroom as well as corrections for speaker phase and delay."
> 
> Now, finally I'll get to try out @JaZZ's EQ settings on my HE-1000.


 
  
 Yeah, Roon 1.3 is a slam dunk. This sounds like the best audio player ever, without upsampling anything. I mean, they really hit this one out of the ballpark!
  
 The part that I dig the most is taking 5.1 and remixing to 2.0. It always adds a new mix flavor or a different texture to previous mixes...OR...often there are very dynamic 5.1 mixes, where they don't exist in 2.0, and now you get the full dynamic range. I loved that feature in JRiver.
  
 Next up? I would love a lossless (bit-perfect) room correction like JRiver had. I'm not sure if JRiver's was bit-perfect, but for listening with headphones I could take mono mixes and add a different balance, basically creating a fake stereo mix that really brought out the mono elements but without the hole-in-the-middle effect with cans. I'm just saying, that Roon is dedicated to bit-perfect playback no matter the DSP settings, so if anyone could do it, they could.


----------



## Muataz

A question about the DAC performance in chord products, I read online about how group delay frequency affect the DAC performance. so is there any measurement to evaluate this and how chord DAC do in this area ?


----------



## Sonic77

I'm listening to i tunes and forgot how good 44.1 can sound, I can only imagine how good the M-Scaler  will sound.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

There's a brief Japanese assessment of Blu2 M Scaler over on the Blu 2 thread posted by maxh22. I think the writer was rather taken by what CD could produce too

".....The writer also experienced that sound, but also the depth of carving of three-dimensional sounds and the sense of air in the place where the sound source was recorded are conveyed vividly. This is a incredibly incredible performance of CDs."

I can't wait to hear this product.


----------



## EVOLVIST

sonic77 said:


> I'm listening to i tunes and forgot how good 44.1 can sound, I can only imagine how good the M-Scaler  will sound.




Have you ever studied the invention of the CD? It's not just a question for you, but for everybody in here. It's actually really amazing. I'm not talking about what's on Wikipedia, but some in depth stuff that's out there, especially Peek's book. All about how Sony and Philips really got it right with 16/44.1. It's really neat how forward thinking the whole process was. 

Think about this: it was 106 years from when Thomas Edison patented his wax cylinder to the marketing of the compact disc. It's only been 34 years since the first CDs hit the market to now.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

O/T I heard a pair of Kef Blade 2's on demo recently I have to say those things go deep! The room wasn't small but the depth of bass was prodigious. Honestly sounded like a huge subwoofer was being used on one recording. Would have loved to hear them with a Dave front end.

If Kef's figure of 32 hz is correct then all other speaker specs are wrong imo.


----------



## a1uc

Got my SMS200 from the little time I spent with it 
this little unit is a real bargain .


----------



## icebear

daveredref-iii said:


> There's a brief Japanese assessment of Blu2 M Scaler over on the Blu 2 thread posted by maxh22. I think the writer was rather taken by what CD could produce too
> 
> ".....The writer also experienced that sound, but* also the depth of carving of three-dimensional sounds and the sense of air in the place where the sound source was recorded *are conveyed vividly. This is a incredibly incredible performance of CDs."
> 
> I can't wait to hear this product.


 
  
 ... eh, is* this *something special? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Maybe in just lucked out with my set up and taking this for granted at a much lower cost than Blu2/Dave.
 If the recording has been made in a real acoustic space with live musicians/orchestra playing, then I have this is realistically transported via my speakers. I get a sense of the position of the musicians in the room and size of the room itself. I have no problem to virtually locate a triangle in the far back of the orchestras percussion section or a violin soloist up front. Or I can perceive a violinist moving in front of the microphone one or two feet back and forth or to the sides. And yes, this is just CD sources, the ol' red book.
  
 Don't you get a similar sound reproduction with the equipment listed in your profile?
 It looks you have the Dave already. What do you feed it with? What do you expect the improvement to be with Blu2?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Icebear
I use Red Reference III as my transport for Dave. I still have great belief in the potential of Red Book.

To answer your other question this is what I anticipate hearing when I team the Blu2 M Scaler with my Dave Dac:

Chords own description:

"it becomes simpler to perceive the leading edge of transient notes, creating a life-like sound-field. Bass definition is massively improved, with greater ability to follow the tune. Sound-staging, instrument separation and focus are also noticeably better, along with vastly improved variation in instrument timbre."


----------



## icebear

OK, you are a Chord fan, just enjoy.


----------



## a1uc

.


----------



## EVOLVIST

daveredref-iii said:


> There's a brief Japanese assessment of Blu2 M Scaler over on the Blu 2 thread posted by maxh22. I think the writer was rather taken by what CD could produce too
> 
> ".....The writer also experienced that sound, but also the depth of carving of three-dimensional sounds and the sense of air in the place where the sound source was recorded are conveyed vividly. This is a incredibly incredible performance of CDs."
> 
> I can't wait to hear this product.


 
  
 Yeah, but see, I'm in no way being disparaging of Asians, as they are really cool and Hi-Fi is their game, but I don't trust any reviews that come out of native Asian lands, simply because nothing seems to satisfy them with Hi-Fi. I have literally seen some Japanese tourists at a Hi-Fi shop, with cans on, listening and smiling, bowing and genuflecting in front of the salesman, only to walk away with grimaces on their faces as soon as they turned their backs. It was the damndest thing!
  
 I mean, it seems like a nice review - very polite - I just wonder if he popped a blood vessel in an eye as he was writing it, ya know?


----------



## Christer

romaz said:


> Yes, the microRendu is galvanically isolated at its ethernet input and so is the sMS-200 but this also applies to my Mac Mini, Intel NUC, Mac Pro, my laptops and all things that have a hardwired network connection.  As far as I know, John Swenson didn't go to any extraordinary lengths to incorporate an special galvanic isolation in the microRendu beyond what the ethernet protocol calls for which is why he also added "ethernet filtering" but this is nothing unique as even my Mac Mini offers this.
> 
> I am not a networking expert but it has been my understanding that the ethernet protocol has called for transformer coupling dating back to 10base-T and so by definition, all modern ethernet connections are galvanically isolated (usually to several hundred volts) and so this is a key advantage that audio over ethernet has over other transmission protocols.  This transformer-coupling spec was introduced not for the benefit of audio but because ethernet can support fairly long runs such that equipment on different ends can be powered by different power distribution networks within a building or even different buildings which could then lead to a significant ground offset between ethernet nodes.  As we know, however, this transformer coupling does nothing for RF created by the device itself which can be significant and why DAVE's galvanic isolation at the USB input is still very important.
> 
> ...


 

 Hello again romaz, I see that you mention  the GISO by Acousense, it is one of the units I have been considering using with HUGO to make it work properly  and long term listenable in my home system.
 Do you have any personal experience with that unit /isolator?
 Or do  you have  links to more  information  about it apart from their own homesite?
 I know they are using it at all their classical recording sessions and imho their 24/192 masterfiles are some of the most realistic hi res pcm recordings I know of.
 Their Shostakovich 15th symphony coupled with Mozart's Haffner symphony is very good indeed.
 And so are most other recordings I have from Acousense.
 It seems they might  know a thing or two both about proper isolation and recording.
 But they are if I understand it correctly, firmly in the camp of NON bandwidth limiting.
 Their philosophy apart from sensible miking seems to be to capture and include hf enegry well into  the"inaudible" territory in their 24/192 recordings.
 There is some interesting reading and  spectral screenshots at the  Acousense site that argues that rbcd is NOT enough for realism with dynamic large scale symphonic music. And I for one think that their recordings are  "proof of the pudding" in some respects.
 Very spacious ,very airy  and tonally and timbrally  believable SQ .And with no sense of  the sound  having  been  closed in, or  squeezed in , in a too small box with a too low ceiling, which is a feeling I almost always get listening to rbcd more than a short while. 
 As you know I have little interest in what can be squeezed out of the rbcd standard, which was not even state of the art when it was introduced. Several classical companies where recording at higher rates than 16/44.1 even before rbcd discs were introduced.
 To me rbcd was an unfortunate compromise made for practial reasons NOT "perfect sound forever".
 But as you said in an earlier post one needs demanding material  and a trained ear to hear the subtle differences I am striving for, but which could almost  be taken for granted with the best examples with  the medium the mass market abandoned for many years.
 What I want from the best  digital is at least the level of direct cut LPs but without their limitations.


----------



## EVOLVIST

christer said:


> .
> As you know I have little interest in what can be squeezed out of the rbcd standard, which was not even state of the art when it was introduced. Several classical companies where recording at higher rates than 16/44.1 even beefore rbcd discs were introduced.
> To me rbcd was an unfortunate compromise made for practial reasons NOT "perfect sound forever".
> 
> ...


 
 Wow. You just said the total opposite of what I just posted earlier. I like it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Have you gotten your DAVE yet?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Evolvist
In no way being disparaging of Asians?


----------



## EVOLVIST

daveredref-iii said:


> Evolvist
> In no way being disparaging of Asians?


 
  
 Ha! Nah, I mean, okay, I made a blanket statement, but no, not disparaging.
  
 I have this Vietnamese buddy - in fact, I'm going to listen to his new speakers this Saturday - and I'm always busting his chops, you know, that my DAVE is not good enough for him, or whatever, just being goofy. Then he'll put on some esoteric Vietnamese artist with all of this clicks-'n'-clacks going on, pings and plucks and whatnot, so I tell him, "Hey man, can we hear that one album." He asks me which one, so I tell him, "You know, the one with all of the cats with their tails tied together." It's all in good fun.
  
 Actually, he's one amazing dude at ripping vinyl, while I'm only amazing at listening.


----------



## EVOLVIST

In fact, my Asian pal, he busts my balls that I spend half of my time tracking down and cherry picking the best performance of this classical piece or that one, only to spend the other half of my time listening to something like the Neil Young or Earth, Wind and Fire. Heh.


----------



## Christer

evolvist said:


> Wow. You just said the total opposite of what I just posted earlier. I like it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hello EVOLVIST,
  No offence intended if your post was the one that praised  the 16/44.1 standard. Maybe we listen to very different  musical genres you and I? To really hear the lacking resolution of 16/44.1 it takes demanding large scale classical or contempory acoustic music material imho.  I have to confess that I have yet to hear 16/44.1 via DAVE. I just don't have any music recorded in that in that format any longer and I don't miss those that I had very much. Until convinced by my own ears and standards and with  large scale classical reference material of the opposite  I still regard rbcd as simply NOT enough for me .Especially knowing that my direct cut LPs in some respects still give even the very best of digital like DAVE with hi res material a very good run for its money.I was very tempted  to buy a DAVE.But I found the price outrageous. Hence  I am biding my time  knowing well that the trickle down effect both will deliver what I need and  might already have provided a close enough competitor to DAVE that I can hopefully use both as a DAC in my highend  mainly LP based  stereo home system and as now on my travels  with HUGO. Its name is possibly and again hopefully  HUGO 2.
 I also think that before long  and with the introduction of the Mscaler in combination with even HUGO 2 or similar any audible differences will be so small that the deficiences of most recordings will be much more important  limiting factors than my choice of DAC.
 Cheers Cris


----------



## erik701

http://hifipig.com/chord-electronics-adds-usb-input-to-blu-mkii-cd/
  
 I just read that Chord added USB type B input to Blu Mk. 2. Does it mean that Blu Mk. 2 will work as USB DAC as well?


----------



## onlychild

erik701 said:


> http://hifipig.com/chord-electronics-adds-usb-input-to-blu-mkii-cd/
> 
> I just read that Chord added USB type B input Blu Mk. 2. Does it mean that Blu Mk. 2 will work as USB DAC as well?




I have the same question after I saw the post on Chords FB page


----------



## theveterans

erik701 said:


> http://hifipig.com/chord-electronics-adds-usb-input-to-blu-mkii-cd/
> 
> I just read that Chord added USB type B input to Blu Mk. 2. Does it mean that Blu Mk. 2 will work as USB DAC as well?


 
  
 It does not have a FPGA for conversion. It'll just function as a transport with the upsampling I believe.


----------



## erik701

theveterans said:


> It does not have a FPGA for conversion. It'll just function as a transport with the upsampling I believe.


 

 This is from Blu Mk. 2 product page on http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk
  
_Put simply, the Blu MkII upscaling CD transport sets new standards for CD sound quality by using the very latest FPGA technology to implement advanced proprietary filtering and upscaling techniques. Our next-generation CD transport incorporates a powerful new FPGA core with extraordinary capability._


----------



## onlychild

Since getting the Utopias, I've been eyeing the DAVE as my next purchase so I'm not that familiar with how the whole "taps" thing works.

If the Blu MK2 has 1M taps but then that signal is fed to the Dave with 164k taps, are you not downgrading the 1M taps of the blu by feeding it to the DAVE? Sorry for the newbi question


----------



## theveterans

erik701 said:


> This is from Blu Mk. 2 product page on http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk
> 
> _Put simply, the Blu MkII upscaling CD transport sets new standards for CD sound quality by using the very latest FPGA technology to implement advanced proprietary filtering and upscaling techniques. Our next-generation CD transport incorporates a powerful new FPGA core with extraordinary capability._


 
  
 Edit: Blu does not have a pulse array DAC. The quote refers to the advanced WTA filtering techniques (pulse array modulation) to upsample the digital input before feeding to the DAC in the DAVE, essentially bypassing DAVE's internal pulse array modulation.


----------



## Jawed

DAVE has 3 upsamplers that run one after the other: 

from input to 16x, 
from 16x to 256x
from 256x to 2048x

The first of these, 16x, is also present in Blu 2. So DAVE doesn't need to perform the first stage of upsampling. So DAVE's 164,000 taps don't interfere with the million taps in Blu 2.

The pulse array has nothing to do with upsampling. The pulse array is actually the digital to analogue converter, the final digital step.



Now playing: Slowdive - Waves


----------



## miketlse

onlychild said:


> Since getting the Utopias, I've been eyeing the DAVE as my next purchase so I'm not that familiar with how the whole "taps" thing works.
> 
> If the Blu MK2 has 1M taps but then that signal is fed to the Dave with 164k taps, are you not downgrading the 1M taps of the blu by feeding it to the DAVE? Sorry for the newbi question


 
 To add to the @theveterans reply, the Blu2 will replace some of the processing that was previously performed by the DAVE.


----------



## Sonic77




----------



## ecwl

erik701 said:


> http://hifipig.com/chord-electronics-adds-usb-input-to-blu-mkii-cd/
> 
> I just read that Chord added USB type B input to Blu Mk. 2. Does it mean that Blu Mk. 2 will work as USB DAC as well?


 

 ​No. If you don't have a Chord DAVE, you would take your USB streamer/computer music source and connect it via USB to the Blu Mk 2 which would upsample your music to 384kHz or 352kHz 24-bit and then send the digital music data to your USB DAC via BNC / coaxial S/PDIF, assuming your DAC has BNC or coaxial S/PDIF input.
  
 Oops. I just realized I misread the question. But it's too late to erase my old answer.
 But I think others have answered that Chord DAVE and other Chord DACs are actual USB DACs. Blu Mk 2 even with its USB input, is "just" an upsampler. It can upsample to 704kHz or 768kHz into the Chord DAVE or at lower sample rates into other DACs. But it is likely the best upsampler in the world because of the computational power and algorithm used. We are hoping that it is the superior upsampling capabilities of the Blu Mk 2 that would make CDs "even more analog" (whatever more analog means to you).
  
 That said, even though I've sort of pre-ordered Blu Mk 2 through my local dealer, whenever I listen to Chord DAVE, I sometimes wonder what I'm getting myself into, given DAVE already sounds absolutely amazing...


----------



## Kamil21

ecwl said:


> ​No. If you don't have a Chord DAVE, you would take your USB streamer/computer music source and connect it via USB to the Blu Mk 2 which would upsample your music to 384kHz or 352kHz 24-bit and then send the digital music data to your USB DAC via BNC / coaxial S/PDIF, assuming your DAC has BNC or coaxial S/PDIF input.
> 
> Oops. I just realized I misread the question. But it's too late to erase my old answer.
> But I think others have answered that Chord DAVE and other Chord DACs are actual USB DACs. Blu Mk 2 even with its USB input, is "just" an upsampler. It can upsample to 704kHz or 768kHz into the Chord DAVE or at lower sample rates into other DACs. But it is likely the best upsampler in the world because of the computational power and algorithm used. We are hoping that it is the superior upsampling capabilities of the Blu Mk 2 that would make CDs "even more analog" (whatever more analog means to you).
> ...




My take on this is that we must understand that Blu2 transport is only an interim demonstration of the MScaler in a cd transport. The real product is going to be Davina as it will have both USB in and out functions, and that is what we should all be waiting for if we want the bells and whistles. Of course, for those who can't wait, get the Blu2 first!


----------



## Clive101

gearspro said:


> hello, I'm new in this forum. great place to speak for audio.
> I have AKG k702 headphones and since now I hear music from a Technics amp , not good I know, and I have some money to spent. Do you believe is a good fit my headphones with Chord Dave or it is better to buy better headphones and a cheaper headphone amp? HugoTT for example.


 

 Sorry for the delay in my reply but I wanted to do a side by side test of my Dave and Hugo TT.
 There is a difference but the Hugo TT does give a very good performance and the enjoyment value is outstanding.
 All I would say if your a photographer and a pixel peeper and do the same with your music then there is more of a difference.
 Personally I would purchase a *second hand* Hugo TT and purchase a high end headphone of your choice.
 The guarantee on the Hugo TT is 5 years so you should be able to resell your purchased second hand one without as much loss such you decide to upgrade to the Dave at a later date.
 I use LCD4 but may try the Focal Utopia.
 Oh the thing I have noticed on this forum that no one mentions the USB cable and the sound difference with Dave which is as important....?


----------



## Rob Watts

I have tried 4 different USB cables from 3 USD to 300 USD, and could not reliably tell any difference in SQ with Dave.
  
 Rob


----------



## Clive101

rob watts said:


> I have tried 4 different USB cables from 3 USD to 300 USD, and could not reliably tell any difference in SQ with Dave.
> 
> Rob


 

 Thank you for your reply, which I respect, and always wanted to ask you this question.
  
 Your experience and expertise overshadows me without any doubts. 
  
 I have tried some expensive cables circa £1000.00 along with some less expensive have untrained ears as just taking my first steps into HiFi.
  
 For me there was a difference, more so with speakers than headphones and more so with Hugo TT than Dave.
  
 I am off to get a volunteer to change the cables for me for a blind test, will come back if I may.
  
 Regards


----------



## Triode User

rob watts said:


> I have tried 4 different USB cables from 3 USD to 300 USD, and could not reliably tell any difference in SQ with Dave.
> 
> Rob


 

 That's good to know and will help me afford the Dave I have just ordered after trialing it against my Bricasti M1. I have always taken the view that a USB cable either works or it doesn't.
  
 By the way, the Dave seemed to me to portray more realistic music that sounded less 'recorded'. I also compared the HugoTT and found a big step up with the Dave. This was all with a table top system and speakers though.


----------



## Rob Watts

My tests were with headphones only - and that was done simply to see if Dave - on it's own - was sensitive. With loudspeakers, you have a pre-amp (preferably not!) and a power amp. These devices are sensitive to RF noise, and its conceivable that RF noise from the USB cable would change the SQ of these. But in these cases you are not hearing the USB with Dave. Moreover, it's possible that different sources may react differently to the RF character of the USB cable. Note also that initially I did hear a difference with USB cables - but it was not consistent - but then I noticed that the cable was close to the headphone cable. When I separated the headphone cable from the USB cable, then the differences disappeared.   
  
 So YMWV on this; but I maintain that the USB cable is not something to worry about with Dave.
  
 Rob


----------



## Mojo ideas

onlychild said:


> I have the same question after I saw the post on Chords FB page


 No it only outputs digital information it has no analogue outputs.


----------



## Triode User

rob watts said:


> ....... With loudspeakers, you have a pre-amp (preferably not!) and a power amp. ..........
> Rob


 
  
 Rob, I have valve power amps and I have consistently found that the sound is seriously degraded by trying to take the output from a Hugo, HugoTT or Dave direct into the power amp. As a result I use a Music First TVC preamp between your DACs and the valve power amps. Maybe its an impedance thing with the valve amps as opposed to a solid state amp. I know that you have always been consistent in your view that you prefer those DACs going direct into the power amp but I wondered if you have ever tried a valve power amp with them? I use the Icon Audio MB845Mk2 monos.
  
 (By the way I have just ordered a Dave after trialing it against my current DAC).


----------



## Jawed

Rob uses a modern laptop running on battery power generally - which appears to result in very low RFI injection into the USB cable. With his laptop connected to mains power he reported what is likely to be mains-originated RFI noise:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/3435#post_12681548



> So what does this tell us? Basically the most significant path of RF is residual coupling via the USB, not via the mains supply as the jitterbug alone gets you most of the way.
> 
> Use the jitter bug for mains powered USB sources - it is worth the small cost.
> 
> The best sound is still with a Win 10 lap-top on battery and for critical listening that is what I do. Battery operation and Dave's galvanic isolation means effectively perfect RF noise isolation from the source.



In my view a computer is a source of RFI in its own right, independent of what's in the mains. I'm dubious that any computer will inject no noise into a USB cable. On the other hand, Chord's USB implementation has high quality galvanic isolation, which probably puts a threshold on how much inherent PC noise is required to cause a problem. But it's not perfect, hence people generally always prefer some kind of USB optimisation for their Chord DAC.

My PC is a few years old and mains powered. I use two Jitterbugs for my PC. One is between my PC and DAVE, the other is in another socket on the back of the PC. I also use this short USB cable:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B008VOPCGY/

I tried the cable fist, which I preferred over the USB cable that came with my TT. All 3 tweaks were improvements with my TT. Since I got DAVE I haven't re-evaluated.

Also, perhaps DAVE's power supply might be better than TT's at killing RF noise that gets in through USB.

Now playing: Sergej Bezrodny; Vladimir Spivakov - Spiegel Im Spiegel


----------



## erik701

kamil21 said:


> My take on this is that we must understand that Blu2 transport is only an interim demonstration of the MScaler in a cd transport. The real product is going to be Davina as it will have both USB in and out functions, and that is what we should all be waiting for if we want the bells and whistles. Of course, for those who can't wait, get the Blu2 first!


 

 So Kamil, Chord DAVINA will work as A/D, also as D/A converter and theoretically will replace whole DAVE functionality?


----------



## jozefs

I see you already decided.....


----------



## Kamil21

erik701 said:


> So Kamil, Chord DAVINA will work as A/D, also as D/A converter and theoretically will replace whole DAVE functionality?




My understanding is only from what I have read in these forums and that Davina is fundamentally an A/D converter. 
It is also my understanding that the USB port will handle both receiving and transmission of digital music with a computer.

This does not necessarily mean that Davina has a D/A function, but certainly it should have a D to D function. Unless Chord decides to include some D/A function into Davina as an afterthought (for headphone or other monitoring, say), I would think that this would still be handled and done best by Dave.. After all, one is male, and the other female


----------



## miketlse

kamil21 said:


> My understanding is only from what I have read in these forums and that Davina is fundamentally an A/D converter.
> It is also my understanding that the USB port will handle both receiving and transmission of digital music with a computer.
> 
> This does not necessarily mean that Davina has a D/A function, but certainly it should have a D to D function. Unless Chord decides to include some D/A function into Davina as an afterthought (for headphone or other monitoring, say), I would think that this would still be handled and done best by Dave.. After all, one is male, and the other female


 
  
 There are several posts that explain the chord proposed product strategy:
  
 Use the start point of the M-Scalar technology which chord have recently announced
  

the initial implementation of M-Scalar is within the Blu 2, to enhance the RBCD output using 500k taps, which is then fed to the DAVE to complete the overall 1M taps processing
the next implementation will be the Davina, which will include M-Scalar, plus ADC, plus maybe other functionality which DAVE owners have recently requested. Again the 500k taps output will be fed to the DAVE to achieve 1M taps overall
There have been a lot of requests for a third implementation of M-Scalar, but without the ADC (effectively a Davina-lite). I think this product is still at a concept design stage, with many requests for functionality from DAVE owners, so it is too early to state what the final product will look like.   
  
 Overall the next 18 months promise some exciting new products.
 Much of this M-Scalar and Davina technology was at the pure R&D stage just a few months ago, and is being rushed into physical products as fast as possible.


----------



## Weatherlight

What I would like is a new and updated choral line streamer, perhaps a CodeX 2, with a diagonal-rectangular screen á la DAVE... or just a dedicated streamer. 

and a server with user upgradable storage (SSD or M.2 NVMe), SD card slot at the front.

 Stacks, uh boy... drool worthy


----------



## Clive101

rob watts said:


> My tests were with headphones only - and that was done simply to see if Dave - on it's own - was sensitive. With loudspeakers, you have a pre-amp (preferably not!) and a power amp. These devices are sensitive to RF noise, and its conceivable that RF noise from the USB cable would change the SQ of these. But in these cases you are not hearing the USB with Dave. Moreover, it's possible that different sources may react differently to the RF character of the USB cable. Note also that initially I did hear a difference with USB cables - but it was not consistent - but then I noticed that the cable was close to the headphone cable. When I separated the headphone cable from the USB cable, then the differences disappeared.
> 
> So YMWV on this; but I maintain that the USB cable is not something to worry about with Dave.
> 
> Rob


 

 Thank for the advice re the RF, I will test with headphones making sure of the headphone cable is away from the USB cable.


----------



## Rob Watts

triode user said:


> rob watts said:
> 
> 
> > ....... With loudspeakers, you have a pre-amp (preferably not!) and a power amp. ..........
> ...


 
 Yes I have heard this opinion expressed once or twice before and I suspect it may be some kind of euphonic distortion. But every time I have heard Dave drive valve power-amps direct, it has sounded superb - smooth and refined, with cavernous sound-stage. I guess I have done this about half a dozen times with differing valve power amps. 
  
 Whenever I have tried pre-amp in or out, it has always been much more transparent, with the sound being brighter due to the better transparency - and no hint of hardness or aggression. But again YMWV... And I can't comment on all the power amps out there. I know it is technically _possible_ for power amps that have poor stability margins to go unstable with a low source impedance - and if you find it does not work for you then try the balanced outputs, as these are 33 ohm outputs. That said, I think it is very unlikely - and normally it is a high output impedance from the pre-amp or DAC that creates stability problems.
  
 Rob


----------



## Triode User

rob watts said:


> Yes I have heard this opinion expressed once or twice before and I suspect it may be some kind of euphonic distortion. But every time I have heard Dave drive valve power-amps direct, it has sounded superb - smooth and refined, with cavernous sound-stage. I guess I have done this about half a dozen times with differing valve power amps.
> 
> Whenever I have tried pre-amp in or out, it has always been much more transparent, with the sound being brighter due to the better transparency - and no hint of hardness or aggression. But again YMWV... And I can't comment on all the power amps out there. I know it is technically _possible_ for power amps that have poor stability margins to go unstable with a low source impedance - and if you find it does not work for you then try the balanced outputs, as these are 33 ohm outputs. That said, I think it is very unlikely - and normally it is a high output impedance from the pre-amp or DAC that creates stability problems.
> 
> Rob


 

 Rob
  
 Thanks for the time replying. My two amps I have tried are Icon Audio 845 amps that I mentioned earlier and some vintage Audio Innovations Second Audio (2A3) monobloc valve amps. Both sounded pretty good fed direct by the Dave but become jaw droppingly good when the transformer based Music First pre amp is used between the Dave and the power amps. I am no techie so I have no idea what causes it but I have a solution and already have the pre amp so everyone is happy, no not happy - that is the wrong expression, over awed with the sound would better describe it.
  
 I thought it would be a good idea just to mention it in case someone tries the Dave direct into their valve amp and isn't totally impressed and perhaps they can try a preamp and see if that reveals all the Dave's strengths.
  
 Nick


----------



## krumley7882

Wow---"Hugo 2 is the closest thing to a mini DAVE"~J


----------



## Mojo ideas

erik701 said:


> So Kamil, Chord DAVINA will work as A/D, also as D/A converter and theoretically will replace whole DAVE functionality?


 The Davina is only one development program that Rob is working on. It may not become a product for a year or even far more. It really should not have been so loudly trumpeted. Because really when talked about it was mostly theory and speculation that still had to be designed built, tested and thoroughly proved. We at Chord would prefer that only products that are fully developed are discussed but we do understand that having a good sounding board like HeadFi is a very valuable asset that informs our design process


----------



## iDesign

mojo ideas said:


> ...It really should not have been so loudly trumpeted. Because really when talked about it was mostly theory and speculation that still had to be designed built, tested and thoroughly proved. We at Chord would prefer that only products that are fully developed are discussed...




Coincidentally Rob's posts about forthcoming products like the Davina influenced my decision to purchase products from Chord far more than any traditional marketing efforts or ads.


----------



## miketlse

mojo ideas said:


> The Davina is only one development program that Rob is working on. It may not become a product for a year or even far more. It really should not have been so loudly trumpeted. Because really when talked about it was mostly theory and speculation that still had to be designed built, tested and thoroughly proved. We at Chord would prefer that only products that are fully developed are discussed but we do understand that having a good sounding board like HeadFi is a very valuable asset that informs our design process


 
 This encapsulates the conflict between two approaches to product design:

pure technology led, where you design around new technology, then only let the potential customers view the pre-production prototype results at CES - unfortunately this leaves you wide open to discovering that your customers wanted a different product (eg the SD card reader, and usb inputs), leading to much rework of the design
the 'systems engineering' led approach, where you involve customers in 'focus groups' during the initial concept design stages, and ensure that the prototypes shown at CES include customer needs. This helps to avoid late rework to product designs.
  
 I think chord are falling a bit in the middle of those approaches at the moment. I would happily be part of a 'focus group', and i suspect that there would be many other volunteers on HeadFi.


----------



## Mojo ideas

miketlse said:


> This encapsulates the conflict between two approaches to product design:
> 
> pure technology led, where you design around new technology, then only let the potential customers view the pre-production prototype results at CES - unfortunately this leaves you wide open to discovering that your customers wanted a different product (eg the SD card reader, and usb inputs), leading to much rework of the design
> the 'systems engineering' led approach, where you involve customers in 'focus groups' during the initial concept design stages, and ensure that the prototypes shown at CES include customer needs. This helps to avoid late rework to product designs.
> ...


 Its not a perfect process, I agree however we have moved on the state of the art especially in the mobile products. A more stayed and controlled marketing led approach may have led us to develop products that were only the equal of what was already being sold. So I'm satisfied our design led appoach is the right one for us. Noting that each product we develop illuminates and leads us on to the next one


----------



## jelt2359

kamil21 said:


> My take on this is that we must understand that Blu2 transport is only an interim demonstration of the MScaler in a cd transport. The real product is going to be Davina as it will have both USB in and out functions, and that is what we should all be waiting for if we want the bells and whistles. Of course, for those who can't wait, get the Blu2 first!




I disagree. The davina is an ADC primarily, meant for Rob and Chord to test just how good music can get when they control the entire chain; whereas the Blu2 is a CDP primarily- meant for use as a digital transport. Both are "real products". For an audiophile primarily interested in playing music, the Blu2 is more useful, although many of us on this thread have spent months looking at the microRendu, sms-200, rednet etc and at this point are 100% in on network audio. This is why most of us only need the M scaling component of either product. 

However you have a point about USB out. It has been stated here multiple times that the only way for a Chord Dave owner to get maximum mileage out of the Blu2 would be to use the dual BNC DX inputs. I'm not sure if that's a technical limitation on the USB input of the Dave (or at least the way it was designed) or because it just so happens that the Blu2 does not have USB outputs. Would be interesting for Rob to clarify. 

Personally I'm really psyched for the upcoming firmware update. Would be curious to hear if running the Mojo filter on my Dave means that I no longer have to use an external amp for a warmer tone that suits my preferences.  Also wondering how good my Rednet with BNC output can get now that with the Blu2 the BNC inputs on the Dave will probably be upgraded to be just as good as USB. Finally I personally prefer the HF Fil mode ON even with redbook, and I've read that it actually should not sound different with these types of source files, with a newer algorithm in the Hugo2 having fixed this. 

Given all this, I'm probably just as- if not more so- excited about the firmware improvements. We all know a lot of the magic here is in Rob's code, and if he's found a way to make that even better then wow.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Has this firmware update been verified to happen or are we just wishful thinking?


----------



## x RELIC x

Yeah, I've never heard mention of any firmware updates. Rob has repeatedly said that there are no user firmware updates and that only if there is a significant audible improvement that there will be an option to have the unit updated by an authorized Chord dealer. So far I've read nothing about this for the DAVE in any of the Chord threads, unless I've grossly overlooked some posts, or there is some insider / undisclosed / outside information here. 

What's the Mojo filter on the DAVE, never heard that one either? References?


----------



## GryphonGuy

It is rather sad that some people believe a claim from hearsay overpowers factual observations.
  
 It would seem that wild speculation and hearsay evidence is the only way some people feel they can contribute. If I have nothing I can factually contribute then I stay quiet which is why my post count is so low. I do enjoy the writings of the forum members who clearly have greater experience and knowledge than I do.
  
 Cheers
 GG


----------



## jelt2359

romaz said:


> Both USB and Toslink are galvanically isolated.  USB is superior to _all_ other inputs because it is the only input that is synchronously tied to DAVE's clock.  The other inputs have to go through DPLL first which according to Rob results in a small but noticeable degradation in sound quality.  Having personally tested all of DAVE's inputs, none of them sound horrible but USB does sound best.  Toslink is 2nd best because of its RF isolation.  With AES and SPDIF, the quality of the cables used and its ability to reject RF becomes especially important.  Despite my best efforts, I have not succeeded in getting BNC/SPDIF to sound as good as USB or Toslink but I am still waiting for my prototype USB-to-SPDIF converter to arrive.  I also have a High Fidelity Cables SPDIF cable coming in.
> 
> Rob has suggested in prior posts that he could synchronously tie the other inputs to DAVE's clock to make them equivalent to USB but this would require a code update.  Hopefully, this will one day happen.




Bnc update for Dave would be useful given that's how the blu2 needs to be used. 



romaz said:


> Having spoken with Tom Vaughan, one of Chord's engineers who walked me through Hugo 2's feature set at CES, he described the "Hugo" and "Hugo HF+" filters as being roughly equivalent to "DAVE without HF" and "DAVE with HF", respectively.  Having spoken to Rob about this, the Hugo and Hugo HF+ filters are a further optimized version of DAVE's filters meaning that they are actually better than DAVE's filters.  If I recall correctly, should someone buy an M-scaler for their DAVE, Rob's improved filtering will already be incorporated into M-scaler and is a key reason why the M-scaler sounds better than one would expect from just a 6x increase in TAPS.  In Rob's words, "it's not just the number of TAPS, it's how you use those TAPS."  With M-scaler, there will be no toggle between "HF on" and "HF off" because M-scaler will only sound best one way -- with HF off.




Filters in Hugo2 now better than Dave. 



idesign said:


> It seems Chord is using "Mojo" and "Hugo" rather than DAVE to describe the four filters in Hugo 2. I'm sure that was a conscious marketing decision. This is taken from Chord's Hugo 2 product page:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Choice of filters "Mojo" and "Hugo" in Hugo2, but not in Dave. 

---

The combination of these three things occurring now makes me think a firmware update is likely. Better to send our units in to upgrade a few things at once! 

Also these upgrades tend to follow cycles. We just entered a new cycle with the release of Hugo2 so it is probably the right time. Another possible time could be after Davina, depending on what Rob learns has been done to the signal by other ADCs, there could be code improvements to further improve the Dave performance. But I doubt this- I don't think it's a secret how other ADCs work.


----------



## x RELIC x

jelt2359 said:


> Bnc update for Dave would be useful given that's how the blu2 needs to be used.
> Filters in Hugo2 now better than Dave.
> Choice of filters "Mojo" and "Hugo" in Hugo2, but not in Dave.
> 
> ...




Ah, so you're making assumptions. :rolleyes:

We can hope (if there's an improvement with the DAVE), right! :wink_face:


----------



## Triode User

evolvist said:


> Has this firmware update been verified to happen or are we just wishful thinking?


 
  
 I thought I saw one of the Chord guys on here stating that they didn't do firmware upgrades and that they were always working on new stuff that sounded better but as and when it was finalised it became a new model rather than a software/firmware upgrade to am existing model. I'm happy to be put right though.


----------



## jelt2359

rob watts said:


> Hugo and 2 Qute won't have any upgrades. The knowledge gained from Dave means it will only work with more gates, so Hugo platform is pretty much optimum given the size of the FPGA.
> 
> Dave is possible to have an upgrade, but this would be back to distributor or Chord. I will only do an upgrade if we can make an improvement that is substantial though. Since my FPGA technology is maturing, its less likely to have one though. The DAC 64 had a lot of changes, QBD less, Qute even less, Hugo none...
> 
> Rob




I believe this is the post being referred to with respect to upgrades. I personally feel that what we see in the Hugo2, and in terms of the bnc linking to the clock, counts as "substantial" improvements


----------



## Triode User

jelt2359 said:


> I believe this is the post being referred to with respect to upgrades. I personally feel that what we see in the Hugo2, and in terms of the bnc linking to the clock, counts as "substantial" improvements


 

 OK, I've been put right! Thanks.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Interesting to hear Chord projecting a more cautious expectation for Davina release (or not). Implies to me at least that Rob will be suitably stretched in other directions this year. This would be understandable as like any company, Chord must focus on the projects they feel have the most potential in terms of sales. When you have something special, monetise it! The amps we already know about. High-end streaming product perhaps? 

I'll just be happy with Blu2 for 2017 (plus some much needed acoustic treatment in my room. So as to appreciate fully what it has to offer) 

Then perhaps the more powerful amps will be on offer in 2018? That would suit me fine.


----------



## Kamil21

daveredref-iii said:


> Interesting to hear Chord projecting a more cautious expectation for Davina release (or not). Implies to me at least that Rob will be suitably stretched in other directions this year. This would be understandable as like any company, Chord must focus on the projects they feel have the most potential in terms of sales. When you have something special, monetise it! The amps we already know about. High-end streaming product perhaps?
> 
> I'll just be happy with Blu2 for 2017 (plus some much needed acoustic treatment in my room. So as to appreciate fully what it has to offer)
> 
> Then perhaps the more powerful amps will be on offer in 2018? That would suit me fine.




I'm trying to understand. Where have Chord said that they are placing a lesser priority i.e. " projecting a more cautious expectation" on Davina?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Kamil21
I said that was the implication I took from it. So in no way stated as a fact. These are very busy times for Chord and I would expect they need to balance their time. Davina was always stated by Rob as being a low volume product. Just my interpretation Kamil.

From Mojo ideas
"The Davina is only one development program that Rob is working on. It may not become a product for a year or even far more. It really should not have been so loudly trumpeted. Because really when talked about it was mostly theory and speculation that still had to be designed built, tested and thoroughly proved. We at Chord would prefer that only products that are fully developed are discussed but we do understand that having a good sounding board like HeadFi is a very valuable asset that informs our design process"


----------



## Kamil21

daveredref-iii said:


> Kamil21
> I said that was the implication I took from it. So in no way stated as a fact. These are very busy times for Chord and I would expect they need to balance their time. Davina was always stated by Rob as being a low volume product. Just my interpretation Kamil.
> 
> From Mojo ideas
> "The Davina is only one development program that Rob is working on. It may not become a product for a year or even far more. It really should not have been so loudly trumpeted. Because really when talked about it was mostly theory and speculation that still had to be designed built, tested and thoroughly proved. We at Chord would prefer that only products that are fully developed are discussed but we do understand that having a good sounding board like HeadFi is a very valuable asset that informs our design process"




Ah yes! I missed that post


----------



## EVOLVIST

I would guess that the new digital amp coming from Chord would be a class D amp?

And didn't Rob say, when running to an external amp that he prefers going RCA over XLR from the DAVE?


----------



## Rob Watts

evolvist said:


> I would guess that the new digital amp coming from Chord would be a class D amp?
> 
> And didn't Rob say, when running to an external amp that he prefers going RCA over XLR from the DAVE?


 
 No way is it Class D!
  
 The biggest lesson I learnt from Dave was the importance of very tiny timing errors over small periods - we need timing to be close to perfect at tens of nS level. You simply can't get this from a switching amp as the fastest Class D I have done is at 1.6 MHz - and even at that ultra fast rate would still give significant timing errors even after the reconstruction filters on the PWM output stage.
  
 So no it's linear Class A, with no output reconstruction filters. But there are some interesting things happening on the power supply.... And like all my DAC's, is a single amp with one global feedback path.
  
 As to balanced or RCA - it depends on the power amp, but mostly RCA is best.
  
 Rob


----------



## EVOLVIST

rob watts said:


> No way is it Class D!
> 
> The biggest lesson I learnt from Dave was the importance of very tiny timing errors over small periods - we need timing to be close to perfect at tens of nS level. You simply can't get this from a switching amp as the fastest Class D I have done is at 1.6 MHz - and even at that ultra fast rate would still give significant timing errors even after the reconstruction filters on the PWM output stage.
> 
> ...




Hey, Rob, thanks. I'm just kind of wondering if I go the speakers route why not pick up on the used market a SPM 1200 mk II to use with the DAVE, or do you think that the new amp will make THAT much of a difference? I mean, every review of that model has been stellar. I just wonder how holographic and fast an amp can actually get, you know? 

Granted, I'm just getting into the topic of speakers, having always been a headphone guy. This past Saturday I heard a Mytek Brooklyn DAC going into a D-sonic amp, which fed into some Eggleston Works Andra II loudspeakers, and for the first time in my 43 years, after hearing hundreds of speaker setups I was so moved that I didn't want to listen through cans again. It sounded so natural and so fast. There wasn't even any room correction. 

I love Chord and want to check out Chord options, but I reckon these had a lot to do with the 17 year old Egglestons, which were tops! 

Next weekend I'm taking my DAVE over and replacing the Mytek to hear the difference.


----------



## ecwl

> This past Saturday I heard a Mytek Brooklyn DAC going into a D-sonic amp, which fed into some Eggleston Works Andra II loudspeakers, and for the first time in my 43 years, after hearing hundreds of speaker setups I was so moved that I didn't want to listen through cans again. It sounded so natural and so fast. There wasn't even any room correction.


 
 I'd be careful about what made this speaker setup better sounding than others. I've listened to other Eggleston Works speakers. They are very nice but I'm not sure if they're far superior to other brands. The Andra II does reach lower into the bass region which may be the reason why it sounds better. But more likely, you're appreciating the superior physical setup and room acoustics. That means if you don't put the same effort at home, the Andra II or any other speakers would not sound as good once moved to your own home.
  
 I believe D-sonic amps are class D amplifiers. While I have heard class D amplifiers sound good with Chord DACs, as Rob Watts said, the timing is lost. The problem is, until you actually compare it to class A or class AB amplifiers, you may not know what you're missing. A friend got a 2Qute and paired it with an older pair of Wyred4Sound class D amplifiers. He recently upgraded to the new Bryston 4B3 and he said it was night and day.


----------



## Mojo ideas

evolvist said:


> Has this firmware update been verified to happen or are we just wishful thinking?


 There is no need for any up dates to the Dave software.


----------



## Triode User

mojo ideas said:


> There is no need for any up dates to the Dave software.


 

 That's what I call a definitive end of discussion answer from the horse's mouth!!


----------



## Kamil21

rob watts said:


> No way is it Class D!
> 
> The biggest lesson I learnt from Dave was the importance of very tiny timing errors over small periods - we need timing to be close to perfect at tens of nS level. You simply can't get this from a switching amp as the fastest Class D I have done is at 1.6 MHz - and even at that ultra fast rate would still give significant timing errors even after the reconstruction filters on the PWM output stage.
> 
> ...




This is very heartening to hear. I'd hate to have all that hard work done with Dave , only to be demolished by the philosophically wrong power amplifier.


----------



## miko64

buy Pass Xa nn.8 (with nn= 30, 60, 100, etc). Fits the bill perfectly (big class A)


----------



## rkt31

check benchmark ahb2 power amp. it has proprietary forward feedback tech to give the advantage of class A with class AB. the amp was amongst the finalists of stereophile 2016 best products . it was pipped by first watt power amp which is more expensive . this amp may not better the price tag of expensive power amps  but betters the specs by a large margin.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ecwl said:


> I'd be careful about what made this speaker setup better sounding than others. I've listened to other Eggleston Works speakers. They are very nice but I'm not sure if they're far superior to other brands. The Andra II does reach lower into the bass region which may be the reason why it sounds better. But more likely, you're appreciating the superior physical setup and room acoustics. That means if you don't put the same effort at home, the Andra II or any other speakers would not sound as good once moved to your own home.
> 
> I believe D-sonic amps are class D amplifiers. While I have heard class D amplifiers sound good with Chord DACs, as Rob Watts said, the timing is lost. The problem is, until you actually compare it to class A or class AB amplifiers, you may not know what you're missing. A friend got a 2Qute and paired it with an older pair of Wyred4Sound class D amplifiers. He recently upgraded to the new Bryston 4B3 and he said it was night and day.




Yeah, you know, I don't really know squat about speakers, only that this was my first visceral response to a speaker rig in I don't know how long, if ever. 

I was thinking about his rig, and yeah, what you said about the room, etc. and not getting the same effect. The thing is, really, standard ceiling height, plaster walls; he had notebook paper under the footers of at least one speaker leg, per speaker, to balance the cabs. The room was a little long, but I was sitting in a chair about 8ft in the center between the speakers with a large entryway behind me. I asked him if the chair was his sweet spot, and he said no, he hadn't messed with that yet. I would lean my head a little to the left and the balance was more achieved, but I really didn't even have to do that. 

Anyway, as far as the amp, I wouldn't want to run anything with the DAVE that would kill it, though I still plan on putting the DAVE in line with his rig. 

All of my previous headphones amps were Class A, but none were chosen because of the science behind it; it was just that they all sounded better. With DAVE I just plug my cans right in. 

It still leaves me to wonder if certain speakers just have a certain synergy with the listener. I mean, regardless of the DAC and the amp, the presentation was more more natural than I've ever heard. The speed was incredible! There was no smearing that I could detect, even with very complex passages. So, I mean, really, I don't know, but I'm considering things.

EDIT: I will add that with going through this divorce (and there is hope that we can work things out), it's a moot point anyway, because my funds are pretty much locked at the moment, to where I cannot buy anything. Haha! I have no idea how long this will last, but I suppose it gives me the time to do my due diligence.


----------



## ecwl

evolvist said:


> Yeah, you know, I don't really know squat about speakers, only that this was my first visceral response to a speaker rig in I don't know how long, if ever.
> 
> It still leaves me to wonder if certain speakers just have a certain synergy with the listener. I mean, regardless of the DAC and the amp, the presentation was more more natural than I've ever heard. The speed was incredible! There was no smearing that I could detect, even with very complex passages. So, I mean, really, I don't know, but I'm considering things.


 
 Since there is no rush to get back into speakers, I would suggest getting the book Get Better Sound which you can order online for like $30 at the website from Jim Smith directly. I can't stand the DVD personally. The book makes for a good and interesting read.
  
 The bottomline is that because of physics/room acoustics, the most important part is getting your seat right followed by placing the speakers right. And then if you can get the low-end right, you should get pretty amazing sound. From what you describe, I suspect the reason why things sound nice is because there are no major bass peaks and troughs because the listening room is connected to a large entryway so the bass is not trapped in the listening room. Looking at the Stereophile measurements of the speakers, there is a large wide peak around 60Hz. It is also possible that the speakers and seating position are such that there are bass peaks in the 10-30Hz and a trough around 60Hz so the effect is that you get a very smooth bass frequency response. Sometimes, people hit upon a reasonably ideal setup by chance.
  
 That said, I completely agree with speaker preferences, just as people have headphone preferences. I'm not surprised the Eggleston Works speakers connected with you well. They are great speakers but then there are many others. I'm personally fond of Magico speakers but have no room or money for them.
  
 Regardless, you should still enjoy DAVE with the Andra II rig tremendously. Have fun!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Evolvist
Speaker choice:
One key aspect of cabinet design that l would avoid is wood and MDF. These materials simply cannot cope with vibrations sufficiently to do justice to something as detailed as a Dave Dac. No level of bracing will stop this form of speaker from producing a fairly noticeable 'cabinet sound' as part of the overall sound rendering and this will hide detail. The test for this which I use is to place any demo speaker just 18 inches from a wall. If it cannot work at that distance the unit is simply a radiator for bass, as in the bass is radiating in all directions. I didn't learn this until I tried a speaker whose box was hewn from a solid block of Aluminium. Then I started to hear deep detail from the Dave Dac because it wasn't hidden by cabinet radiation. At its worst I have heard monitor speakers which radiate more bass than towers, such is their lack of cabinet control. 

From here on, as Hifi gets more detailed and refined I think brands like Vivid, Kef (muon & blade), Piega, Wilson Bensch etc are going to prove the benefits of superior vibrational characteristics as they use structures and materials with significantly greater strength in order to avoid cabinet resonance. Vivid bang on about their superior cabinet strength and lack of a self signature all the time. I can now see why. 

The side benefit is that you can place such speakers almost anywhere in the room without serious compromise.


----------



## EVOLVIST

daveredref-iii said:


> Evolvist
> Speaker choice:
> One key aspect of cabinet design that l would avoid is wood and MDF. These materials simply cannot cope with vibrations sufficiently to do justice to something as detailed as a Dave Dac. No level of bracing will stop this form of speaker from producing a fairly noticeable 'cabinet sound' as part of the overall sound rendering and this will hide detail. The test for this which I use is to place any demo speaker just 18 inches from a wall. If it cannot work at that distance the unit is simply a radiator for bass, as in the bass is radiating in all directions. I didn't learn this until I tried a speaker whose box was hewn from a solid block of Aluminium. Then I started to hear deep detail from the Dave Dac because it wasn't hidden by cabinet radiation. At its worst I have heard monitor speakers which radiate more bass than towers, such is their lack of cabinet control.
> 
> ...




Okay, right on! So, the Eggleston Works Andra II, being made of granite, and like 250lbs a piece should do the trick like you're talking about, yes? I would imagine that good footers might come into play, or maybe not. Like I said, my Asian buddy (remember that conversation?) who not happy with almost any sound, is the one who has this setup, and he's very happy, even with notebook paper under the footers. 

What I can't figure is why he's keen on the D-Sonic amp, but then again, coming out of the Mytek DAC perhaps it doesn't matter. The whole presentation was still amazing... And his interconnects weren't all that great. This is why I'm curious how my DAVE would sound in his rig.


----------



## 7ryder

I can personally vouch for the superior vibrational characteristics of my Vivid Audio B-1s which is due to their cabinets being made from fiberglass.
  
 That said, I wouldn't say that you can place them "almost anywhere in the room without serious compromise" because they are a ported design (front & rear) w/ both a rear and front firing woofer, but they do happen to be about 18" from the acoustically treated wall behind them. If I didn't have that treatment, they'd need to be further out into my room. Still, since they aren't full-range speakers, there is more flexibility in where they can be placed.

 For those of you thinking about getting into a speaker system (non-desktop), you'll have better luck with speaker placement if you don't get full-range speakers (especially if you have a smaller room) and, instead, fill out the low frequencies with 2+ subs because you can move them around to work around room modes that create standing waves. http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/listening-room-acoustics-1


----------



## 7ryder

evolvist said:


> Okay, right on! So, the Eggleston Works Andra II, being made of granite, and like 250lbs a piece should do the trick like you're talking about, yes? I would imagine that good footers might come into play, or maybe not. Like I said, my Asian buddy (remember that conversation?) who not happy with almost any sound, is the one who has this setup, and he's very happy, even with notebook paper under the footers.
> 
> What I can't figure is why he's keen on the D-Sonic amp, but then again, coming out of the Mytek DAC perhaps it doesn't matter. The whole presentation was still amazing... And his interconnects weren't all that great. This is why I'm curious how my DAVE would sound in his rig.


 
 Regarding footers, it is speaker dependent. For example, at one time I was thinking about getting Stillpoints for my Vivids and was told by the dealer (who sold both) that they wouldn't make a positive change in the speaker's sound because of the design.


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## DaveRedRef-III

Not heard it but is it really made of granite?!!


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## JaZZ

daveredref-iii said:


> Not heard it but is it really made of granite?!!


 
  
Apparently it is made of «very thick (1.53-1.79") walls of layers of *MDF* laminated together with vibration-damping adhesives».


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## EVOLVIST

jazz said:


> Apparently it is made of «very thick (1.53-1.79") walls of layers of *MDF* laminated together with vibration-damping adhesives».




The tops with the mids and tweets are solid granite.


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## EVOLVIST

What would you guys suggest for speakers and an amp out of the DAVE?


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## flummoxed

Hi Rob,

A little off topic but a quick question for you.

Due to the way Chord DAC's work (I have a TT) is there any benefit in using the upsampling feature in Roon or HQPlayer? i.e up to the max rate the DAC will accept in PCM or PCM to DSD? If so what are the best settings/implementation? 

Thanks in advance


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## Rob Watts

No the tap lengths using a PC are limited; moreover they employ conventional algorithms, which are not nearly as effective at recovering timing information as the WTA algorithm. Don't convert to DSD too, you will degrade depth and detail resolution as well as give poor timing resolution too. 
  
 So keep the data to Mojo/Hugo/Dave bit perfect.
  
 Rob


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## EVOLVIST

romaz said:


> Rodney, I would say bypass the 3 series and go for the Compact Alnico Monitor which can be custom made by Louis Chochos to fit your desk.  It is a considerable upgrade to the Super 3 or 3i.  It can be driven directly by DAVE and the pairing is a match made in heaven although you will want to find a good fast subwoofer to add to the mix.




Since I'm someone who is contemplating speakers for the first time how is the DAVE able to drive these? And would that go for the Super Alnico monitors or even the Super Alnico High Output monitors? 

Plus, since these aren't active monitors, how do you hook up a sub? Some type of pigtailed RCA cables?


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## rkt31

I have not much experience of single driver speakers directly driven by chord dacs but I have tried some diy single driver speakers directly driven by mojo . though i get more than enough volume and did not need to go beyond purple upto light purple but imho single driver has its own limitations particularly for music involving complex pieces like in large orchestral western classical music. in that respect my speaker setup having kefr300 bookshelf speakers, benchmark ahb2 power amp fed directly by hugo at low gain setting performs much better in separating individual instruments with more punch and dynamism. off course I use monitor audio rsw12 active sub also fed by same RCA out of hugo which adds more depth to image.


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## DaveRedRef-III

evolvist said:


> What would you guys suggest for speakers and an amp out of the DAVE?




I think it depends on size of room and what type of music you mainly listen to Evolvist.

If for instance you want really big orchestral picture in a large room then the Kef Blade or Blade 2 would probably do a good job imo. Their brief is to create a picture as though from a single source point and they do this admirably. Bass is fast because the woofers fire against each other and cancel each other out internally. Vivid s do the same and this results in almost zero resonance in the cabinet.

I would expect the Vivid speaker cabinets to be deadest of all though. There is an almost Unanimous view from reviewers this side of the pond that Vivid speakers are right at the top of the pile.

Piega top lines with their best ribbon tweeter and mid solution are amongst the most detailed I know of. Very good for small room as speakers can be placed fairly close to walls.

In a large room perhaps Martin Logan should also be considered. The reason I say large is because Electrostatics fire backwards as well as forwards. No shortage of detail though either

Hope this helps a little


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## flummoxed

rob watts said:


> No the tap lengths using a PC are limited; moreover they employ conventional algorithms, which are not nearly as effective at recovering timing information as the WTA algorithm. Don't convert to DSD too, you will degrade depth and detail resolution as well as give poor timing resolution too.
> 
> So keep the data to Mojo/Hugo/Dave bit perfect.
> 
> Rob


 

 Thanks for the clarification Rob


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## PANURUS

evolvist said:


> What would you guys suggest for speakers and an amp out of the DAVE?


 

 With my Dave, I use 2 Pass labs monoblocks that I had plan to use soon with B&W 800D3.
 But since thursday, I use a CPM 2650 in a second setup with Mojo.
 From that , I want to say : Take time to discover the qualities of the Chord's amplifiers.
  
 edit: CPM 2650 not SPM 2650.


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## DaveRedRef-III

I use the Chord SPM 1200 Mk II btw


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## EVOLVIST

daveredref-iii said:


> I use the Chord SPM 1200 Mk II btw




Yeah, I was thinking of this route since I've seen some good prices on used ones, as well as the Benchmark that rkt31 mentioned. 

These Piega speakers, are you talking the Master series? 

I'm still very intrigued about driving speakers straight from the DAVE, though. Some people are doing it. I just wonder what their exact setup is. That would seem about as transparent as one could get. Romaz seems to think so, for what it's worth.


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## DaveRedRef-III

I would think you would need a monitor with a very light load to drive something direct from Dave. Regarding Piega I have the Coax series but I am sure the Master series will improve on that. Both use the 'tweeter and mid' single ribbon unit that goes down to 400hz before the woofers take over.


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## DaveRedRef-III

Funny story about the Piega's is that when I bought them I was in contact with the head office. I told the guy which speaker interested me and I was asking advice on the size I should be going for in the range. He told me a larger size than I would have expected (I wondered if it was just a sales pitch). I was a little worried a little because I didn't want it to swamp the room with bass. Anyway it turned out he was right but the really impressive feat was that I told him I would be setting them up on the long wall across the room and I needed to know that the optimum position would not be too far out in the room. Anyway he took my data on the dimensions of my listening room and came back with a measurement of front baffle should be approx. 60cm from the wall behind it. Do you know after months of adjustment I have found that he was almost bang on. I have settled at 61cm. That's an impressive understanding of their product I think. No wonder the Germans revere Swiss engineering at the same level us Brits revere German engineering.


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## miko64

panurus said:


> With my Dave, I use 2 Pass labs monoblocks that I had plan to use soon with B&W 800D3.
> But since thursday, I use a CPM 2650 in a second setup with Mojo.
> From that , I want to say : Take time to discover the qualities of the Chord's amplifiers.
> 
> edit: CPM 2650 not SPM 2650.




panurus

How do passlab amps (which) compare to chord amps. I have the former ones and was always wondering how the latter ones perform. What is the main difference?

Thanks

Michael


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## EVOLVIST

Okay, so tell me if I'm right or wrong, or somewhere in between:

DAVE: preamp mode

Speakers: 95db - 8ohms - 2 watts

So... -3db is 3vRMS DAVE output via RCA which equals roughly 2.8 Watts. Therefore, now we are powering the speakers with DAVE in preamp mode, yes? 

Now... +4db is 6.7vRMS DAVE output via RCA, which gives wiggle room in selecting your volume of 8db to play with in volume, being the difference between -3db and +4db without clipping, yes? 

If I'm correct about the above, what I do not know, however, is at +4db it's not hitting the 95db speaker threshold is it? I mean, that's pretty loud... Or is it? I know this might seem elementary to some, but I'm stuck at this point. I wonder how loud I would actually be pushing the speakers. 

Thanks!

Edit: Or did I just hit upon it here? 

Every doubling of power is another +3dB of loudness. So:

2 w = 89 dB

4 w = 92 dB

8 w = 95 dB

Therefore, at 6.7vRMS you are hitting at around 95db, and in a small room that's going to be pretty loud.


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## yellowblue

Romaz seems to be busy at computeraudiophile just now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 so maybe I can answer some questions about a high efficency-speaker setup with the Dave.
  
 The Omega Compact Alnico Monitors can play pretty loud directly connected to the Dave´s RCA. Good enough for a small room. But with some music you should not press them too much. They can sound a little shouty then (especially with not enough burn in time). Much better even after connecting a subwoofer (I use a Klipsch 10´ subwoofer with a XLR-RCA adaptercable with good results).
  
 This will be an incredible setup if you are in search after a very revealing, transparent sound with fantastic soundstage. And it has a really good value. But I am not sure if that kind of tonality will work for all.


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## bmichels

yellowblue said:


> Romaz seems to be busy at computeraudiophile just now
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Omega Compact Alnico Monitors are 95 db/w.
  
 There are some much higher efficiency speakers like the  Klipsch LaScala II which are 105 db/w, the Teresonic Ingenium at 103 db/w, some Voxatic which also are at 105 db/w, or even..the mighty Tune Audio ANIMA at... 109 db/w.
  
 I am considering them to use with my EC445 which also has a Speaker output rated at 3 watts.


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## lovethatsound

For those of you that are interested,their's an interview with John Franks in February's edition of Hi-Fi Choice called John,Hugo and Dave☺


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## tunes

Does anyone know of a portable DAP that has two SD micro card slots that can be used to stack with the Chord Hugo as a transport for flac file library that has USB out? It seems that most of the players currently only have Toslink digital out and this gives inferior SQ as bit perfect input to the Chord Hugo. Ideally, a DAP that also has Wifi to stream TIDAL etc. This would be an ideal transportable setup. If the DAVE was transportable I would buy it now. The HUGO 2 to my ears sounded great at the NYC CAMJAM and more than enough power to drive the HEK V2 to loud levels with plenty of headroom. I thought this pairing was great but the DAVE is really amazing and should be for the cost.


----------



## Kamil21

tunes said:


> Does anyone know of a portable DAP that has two SD micro card slots that can be used to stack with the Chord Hugo as a transport for flac file library that has USB out? It seems that most of the players currently only have Toslink digital out and this gives inferior SQ as bit perfect input to the Chord Hugo. Ideally, a DAP that also has Wifi to stream TIDAL etc. This would be an ideal transportable setup. If the DAVE was transportable I would buy it now. The HUGO 2 to my ears sounded great at the NYC CAMJAM and more than enough power to drive the HEK V2 to loud levels with plenty of headroom. I thought this pairing was great but the DAVE is really amazing and should be for the cost.




I use an Apple iPod with Onkyo player from the App Store. With a USB adapter, it plugs straight into my Dave as a dedicated player. I would think that you can find an equivalent Android device like a cheap Sony phone that has SDcard slots. Some may have 2. All should be able to handle Tidal.


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## PANURUS

miko64 said:


> panurus
> 
> How do passlab amps (which) compare to chord amps. I have the former ones and was always wondering how the latter ones perform. What is the main difference?
> 
> ...


 

 I will send you a private mail.


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## Deftone

tunes said:


> Does anyone know of a portable DAP that has two SD micro card slots that can be used to stack with the Chord Hugo as a transport for flac file library that has USB out? It seems that most of the players currently only have Toslink digital out and this gives inferior SQ as bit perfect input to the Chord Hugo. Ideally, a DAP that also has Wifi to stream TIDAL etc. This would be an ideal transportable setup. If the DAVE was transportable I would buy it now. The HUGO 2 to my ears sounded great at the NYC CAMJAM and more than enough power to drive the HEK V2 to loud levels with plenty of headroom. I thought this pairing was great but the DAVE is really amazing and should be for the cost.




Fiio x5 version 3 is perfect for you


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## EVOLVIST

rob watts said:


> As to balanced or RCA - it depends on the power amp, but mostly RCA is best.
> 
> Rob




Rob, why is RCA the best? 

Let's say if I were running XLRs in preamp mode from the DAVE, straight to speakers, am I going to get a considerable degredation in sound by going the XLR route?

I'm not saying that I want to do this; I'm saying that what would make the XLR different for this, or any application?


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> Since I'm someone who is contemplating speakers for the first time how is the DAVE able to drive these? And would that go for the Super Alnico monitors or even the Super Alnico High Output monitors?
> 
> Plus, since these aren't active monitors, how do you hook up a sub? Some type of pigtailed RCA cables?


 
  


yellowblue said:


> Romaz seems to be busy at computeraudiophile just now
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  


bmichels said:


> Omega Compact Alnico Monitors are 95 db/w.
> 
> There are some much higher efficiency speakers like the  Klipsch LaScala II which are 105 db/w, the Teresonic Ingenium at 103 db/w, some Voxatic which also are at 105 db/w, or even..the mighty Tune Audio ANIMA at... 109 db/w.
> 
> I am considering them to use with my EC445 which also has a Speaker output rated at 3 watts.


 
  
 Sorry for the delay in responding, I've had some distractions.
  
 Speakers (and headphones) are a very personal thing, more personal than DACs, amps, cables, etc. and so I would never suggest one is better than another.  At audio shows, I find myself drawn to many things if the setup is good but all speaker designs have compromise and so it becomes a matter of personal circumstances (ie listening space, preferred genre, listening levels, budget) and priorities.
  
 As YellowBlue has pointed out, single-driver full range speakers are not for everyone and so you will definitely want to try before you commit.  I do agree that it is difficult for a single driver to convincingly reproduce the entire audible frequency spectrum and with complex music, they can get tripped up.  If you are looking to reproduce a heavy metal concert at 120dB or Mahler's 8th to full scale, look elsewhere.  If you are into solo vocals or acoustical music, it's hard to do better but with any genre at _reasonable_ listening levels, they can be a very satisfying choice.
  
 Speakers with multiple drivers provide more even frequency response, can play louder and offer better range but the listening sweet spot can also be narrower in some designs.  My own experience is that single driver designs are less ideal in a far-field setup and they can be hit and miss in a mid-field setup but in my near-field setup, they really come into their own.
  
 As far as advantages, as a single point source and without the drawbacks of a crossover, you have complete phase and time coherence and as a result, the speaker enclosures completely disappear leaving nothing but you and your music.  I don't believe there to be a speaker design that is more transparent than this type of design (even more than electrostatics) and if you wonder what this might sound like, just put on a pair of dynamic headphones like an HD800 or Focal Utopia because it's the same concept except without the depth suppression that comes with headphone listening.  If timbre, timing and inner detail are what you are after, I don't know if you can do better.
  
 There are many examples of highly regarded single driver full range speakers to choose from including those brought up by bmichels and by and large, it is in the midrange where these speakers excel.  Driven by an Alnico magnet, I have not heard a driver with a more magical midrange.  Cost no object and given the choice, I would go with the Voxativ 9.87 Alnicos with dipole bass modules for $45k and call it a day but starting at just under $2k, the Omega Alnicos are extremely tough to beat.
  
 Since full-range drivers are responsible for reproducing a wider frequency spectrum, out of necessity, they have to be faster and easier to drive and that would be the hallmark of any Omega speaker.  The drivers are so fast that even though they have a rear port and even when placed close to a back wall or against a bookshelf, there is no boom or bloat, just very tight, articulate and musical bass although granted, they don't extend very low which is why you need a subwoofer.  Because single-driver designs are generally always high-efficiency, you have a greater selection of musical amps to choose from.  When you need 1000 watts to drive something, you take what you can get (usually class D) but amplifiers at this level of power are seldom known for their musicality.  When all you need are a few watts, then you have many more high-quality options to choose from including SET, transistors and of course, it becomes possible to drive direct with DAVE.  If you subscribe to the "first watt" theory that suggests the most important watt is the first watt, then the prospect of having DAVE directly driving your speakers should be all the more salivating as there are no 2 watts that will be cleaner, truer and more chock full of musical detail. 
  
 As far as pairing the DAVE with the Omega Alnicos, this one is a marriage made in heaven.  The Omega Alnicos have a natural warmth and bloom to them already as if they are always being driven by a tube amp and yet because of their speed, they are capable of revealing every bit of DAVE's delicacy and nuance.  Its 95dB sensitivity could be better but DAVE drives it to very satisfying levels in a near field setup and paired with a good fast subwoofer, I have at no time found myself wanting for more with respect to dynamics.  In fact, I have yet to hear anything at any show or dealership at any price that I have found to be more musically satisfying than what I have at home and I am prepared for the possibility that the improvement I am hearing with DAVE directly driving my Alnicos will be greater than what M-scaler by itself will bring.  This is why I have said for some time now that I believe Rob's digital amps will be _very_ special and could possibly change the face of 2-channel more than the M-scaler.
  
 Should you decide to venture in this direction, you will want to avoid the Omega Super Alnico High Output monitors as their impedance may be too low at 6 ohms.  Stick with Omega's 8-ohm designs.  Because they can be custom built, you could elect to have Louis Chochos (the owner) install female RCA connectors instead of speaker binding posts and that way, you could directly plug in your RCA interconnects although this would make it difficult to use them with Rob's digital amps when they come out.  Note that this can only work with RCAs as DAVE's XLRs have too high an output impedance.  You asked the question of why DAVE's RCAs sound better then XLRs -- it's because they have one less op-amp in the chain to degrade transparency.  As for having DAVE drive your subwoofer, you could drive them via RCA using a Y-adapter or drive them via DAVE's XLRs.  DAVE will have no trouble with the load.


----------



## EVOLVIST

@romaz Again a very thoughtful and illuminating post.
  
 Just a couple of more question, as I think I'm about to take the leap. It's not much of a leap because I've spoken with Louis at Omega, and he says that if I do not like them I can simply return them. Moreover, if I do like them in my study, yet I want more "umph," I could move up to the Super Alnico XRS for my parlor, returning the Compact Alnicos and only paying the difference. How's that for customer service?!
  
 So, the questions, and I know this is only a matter of personal opinions (but I trust yours, except when it comes to HFC 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




):
  
 My study is rather small. The max I could get the monitors away from one another would be able 7ft on stands, the closest would be about 4ft on a table. My listening distance would be about 6 1/2 feet away between the two monitors. Does anything strike you as being off kilter with this setup? I know it doesn't leave much wiggle room.
  
 Secondly, what sort of sub to you have?
  
 As far as music, I listen to a lot of classic rock (Tom Petty, Beatles, Neil Young, David Bowie), small jazz groups (Dave Brubeck, Cannonball Adderley), R&B/Funk (Prince, Stevie Wonder) and classical. The heaviest rock would be older Metallica, or Porcupine Tree, so I wonder if these monitors could handle that. It doesn't have to be super loud, just articulate. In other words, even the metal I listen to is well-recorded.
  
 Now, when I say "classical," I'm speaking of the actual classical period, e.g. Mozart, Hayden, et al, or older classical, going back to the baroque or renaissance. Even Mozart's symphonies are not so huge, but wind ensembles, chamber music, piano sonatas, probably fill up most of my classical love. None of this Romanic period stuff for me, thank you (although if one is rocking the Bach, there can be a ton going on in his organ music).
  
 Anyway, the point is, I don't see that I'm asking a lot from monitors, but do you see it differently? *shrug*


----------



## tunes

Does anyone know of a portable DAP that has two SD micro card slots that can be used to stack with the Chord Hugo as a transport for flac file library that has USB out? It seems that most of the players currently only have Toslink digital out and this gives inferior SQ as bit perfect input to the Chord Hugo. Ideally, a DAP that also has Wifi to stream TIDAL etc. This would be an ideal transportable setup. If the DAVE was transportable I would buy it now. The HUGO 2 to my ears sounded great at the NYC CAMJAM and more than enough power to drive the HEK V2 to loud levels with plenty of headroom. I thought this pairing was great but the DAVE is really amazing and should be for the cost.

Fiio x5 version 3 is perfect for you

It does not have line put with USB to the Chord only digital via Toslink. Correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding was that the SQ with DAVE or HIGO was better if input was USB not digital. Also will the Fio x5 have Wifi to stream TIDAL???


----------



## x RELIC x

tunes said:


> It does not have line put with USB to the Chord only digital via Toslink. Correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding was that the SQ with DAVE or HIGO was better if input was USB not digital. Also will the Fio x5 have Wifi to stream TIDAL???




Pardon me for sounding a bit brash, but USB, coaxial, and optical connections are all digital. There is no line-out through USB. That's why they all need to be fed in to a Digital to Analogue Converter.

The USB connection is only better on the HugoTT/2Qute/DAVE because they have galvanic isolation and can use higher sampling rates than coaxial and optical. If using a portable source like the FiiO X5-3 to a Hugo2 then the noise from the portable source really isn't much of an issue. It can be a big issue from noisy computers (electrical noise pollution, not fan noise) but this is largely mitigated using a portable battery powered source like the FiiO X5-3. If you want to use the Hugo2 in a desktop setup then there are third party galvanic isolation devices that you can add to your chain if you have a noisy computer. 

The X5-3 has WiFi and you can use Tidal with it. Also, according to the features on the FiiO website, you can output through the USB to an external DAC (perhaps in a future firmware update if not implemented yet - not 100% sure). You should go to the respective threads to find out more information about each device. There will be much more information for you to gather there with more people who are actually using the device (both of which are not actually released internationally yet):

FiiO X5-3 thread:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/828402/fiio-x5-3rd-gen-2x-akm-4490-balanced-out-dsd-dxd-dts-android-dual-card-slot

FiiO X5-3 webpage:

http://www.fiio.net/en/products/65

Hugo2 thread:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/831345/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread


----------



## jelt2359

rob watts said:


> Absolutely not when using USB, as the system clock is the source of all data timing - the USB is locked to the FPGA.
> 
> For asynchronous inputs (all of the others) the digital phase lock loop (DPLL) steps in, and together with a small buffer, re-locks and re-times the data to the FPGA clock. This is how incoming jitter is removed from an asynchronous source.
> 
> Rob


 
 Actually, no. The USB is also better because the system clock is the source of all data timing, and it is the only input on the Dave with this.


----------



## tunes

Thanks RELIC

Very helpful.


----------



## romaz

evolvist said:


> @romaz Again a very thoughtful and illuminating post.
> 
> Just a couple of more question, as I think I'm about to take the leap. It's not much of a leap because I've spoken with Louis at Omega, and he says that if I do not like them I can simply return them. Moreover, if I do like them in my study, yet I want more "umph," I could move up to the Super Alnico XRS for my parlor, returning the Compact Alnicos and only paying the difference. How's that for customer service?!
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 In a small study, either the CAM (Compact Alnico Monitors) or the Super Alnico Monitors would work well.  In a near field setup, ideally, the speakers and the listener should make an equilateral triangle with the drivers positioned at ear level and toed in just enough where you have a center-focused image.  If your listening distance is 6 1/2 feet, positioning your speakers 6 1/2 feet apart would be a good rule of thumb.  With near field listening, you still have to contend with room effects but much less so than with mid field or far field listening.
  
 As for subwoofers, I tried many (Sunfire, Martin Logan, REL, SVS, B&W, PSB, Definitive Technology, JL Audio) and it turns out perfectly blending a subwoofer with these very fast Omegas isn't so easy.  Louis can build you a subwoofer to your specifications and I did buy one of these and it played fast and tight but it didn't go low enough or hit me in the chest powerfully enough to do my organ tracks justice.  It came down to between the REL G2 and the JL Audio Fathom F110V2 and I ultimately went with the JL Audio because I found its controls to allow it to blend just a bit better.  
  
 As for your choice of music, I'm pretty sure you'll find the Omegas will handle them well but I can't stress enough the importance of a good fast subwoofer.  As you crank up the music, midrange and treble will keep up but the bass will not.
  
 Here's another perspective from John Darko on the Omega Alnicos.  John didn't use a sub in his setup and Louis has since improved the design of his Alnico driver (higher sensitivity) but I think you'll get the idea.  John likes to rock out pretty hard.
  
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2010/09/omega-super-6-alnico-xrs-extended-room-speakers/
  
 As you've already experienced, Louis is extremely easy to work with.  If you go for a custom build, you'll have the choice of speaker wire if you want to go that far.  If you ask for his very best, he will tell you it will be ZenWave Audio's SMSG wire (a proprietary blend of OCC silver and gold) that is extremely resolving but with wonderful body and a richer (more accurate) tone.  Should you go with the ZenWave wire, you can ask Dave (owner of ZenWave) to also build you the necessary RCA to speaker cable adapters to allow you to have DAVE drive your speakers directly.
  
 As wonderful as these speakers are, ultimately, it is the pairing with DAVE that makes this whole thing utterly mesmerizing.


----------



## Clive101

tunes said:


> Does anyone know of a portable DAP that has two SD micro card slots that can be used to stack with the Chord Hugo as a transport for flac file library that has USB out? It seems that most of the players currently only have Toslink digital out and this gives inferior SQ as bit perfect input to the Chord Hugo. Ideally, a DAP that also has Wifi to stream TIDAL etc. This would be an ideal transportable setup. If the DAVE was transportable I would buy it now. The HUGO 2 to my ears sounded great at the NYC CAMJAM and more than enough power to drive the HEK V2 to loud levels with plenty of headroom. I thought this pairing was great but the DAVE is really amazing and should be for the cost.


 
 I have had two the Questyle QP1 and the Onkyo both have 2 micro sd cards.
  
 Questyle is more of a dedicated music player and the Onkyo does a lot more Bluetooth wifi, but both high end and perhaps you do not need the Hugo, played them both into DAVE and Hugo TT.
  
http://www.uk.onkyo.com/en/products/dp-x1-130623.html
  
http://www.questyleaudio.com/product-qp1
  
 Hope the info helps


----------



## jlbrach

the ak100 is a steal used with 2 card slots...i have bought one as low as 230 bucks recently and that for me is the perfect transport for portable listening


----------



## Hubert H

If you need a bigger sound it might be worth listening to the Wilson Benesch Geometry series although they will obviously need an amp. WB are similar to Chord in that they are engineering led and don't voice their products so they tend not to jump out and grab the ears, they just get on with the job of being transparent to the source.

I listened to quite a few speakers but where the WB's do it for me;

I can't hear the cabinet, the bass is fast and controlled and the soundstage is expansive.

The mid-range driver is directly connected to the amp with minimal crossover components for the other drivers.

Soft dome tweeters, I find that other types tend to etch or not to integrate as well.

The ACT One Evolutions seem to be a sweet spot of the range.

As for a sub, the WB Torus and amp is also well regarded.


----------



## rgs9200m

If you are looking for speakers, it would be best to spend a good deal of time reading the speaker forums on audiogon and audio asylum.
 Don't short change the research and listening, since buying/selling speakers is a lot more difficult and expensive than headphones or other components.
 On the plus side, there are a lot of great pre-owned deals available.
 You kind of "marry" a speaker, since once you get one (especially a floorstander), you are kind of stuck with it, and you can't usually own a bunch of them and use what suits your taste (like headphones).
 Speakers are not one-night-stands.
 This may seem obvious, but a lot of people get struck by the gravity of a 200 pound monster (2 of them) sitting in their room that just doesn't sound right to them.
 And then reality bites.


----------



## jelt2359

hubert h said:


> If you need a bigger sound it might be worth listening to the Wilson Benesch Geometry series although they will obviously need an amp. WB are similar to Chord in that they are engineering led and don't voice their products so they tend not to jump out and grab the ears, they just get on with the job of being transparent to the source.
> 
> I listened to quite a few speakers but where the WB's do it for me;
> 
> ...


 
 Have you heard the WB Vertex?


----------



## lovemov

I have received the Dave today, it's loaner from my dealer, I will have several days to decide if I shall replace my current setup.
  
 I only had it 2 hours now, so I need more time to listen to it. This will be amp direct to Sony Z1R compares to ZH1ES.
  
 So far 2 things may become deal breaker, one is it does not play DSD256 by Audirvana or Jriver (my other DACs played ok under same environment); I read people said foobar player was fine? but I am a Mac guy...
  
 But secondly, this is a major one, I have music mixed on my server PCM or DSD, but I have to manually switch on Dave between DSD and PCM mode? This is going to be very painful, especially considering the wife sometimes will listen to it as well and she will have no idea to switch.
  
  
 Edited:
 One small thing, when playing, the screen is on and then go dark for like half a second then on again, this was playing 44.1/16 rebook, music has no drop out...what does this mean?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

"Speakers are not one-night-stands.
This may seem obvious, but a lot of people get struck by the gravity of a 200 pound monster (2 of them) sitting in their room that just doesn't sound right to them.
And then reality bites."

This is a point well made imo. 

I would add that speaker 'setup' is critical. An average pair of speakers, setup well, will normally sound better than a good pair of speakers badly setup or mismatched with room size. Even a single driver speaker (of the sort mentioned earlier in this thread) can be badly setup, though it has to be said such a beast does simplify matters hugely. If the triangle of sound isn't Isosceles or the firing angles are not identical though then the reproduction will be compromised regardless of speaker type. Two way and three way speakers are harder to get right and the difference at say 10 feet distance with even a 64th inch error of plane alignment can be quite noticeable. 3 ways have a critical need to be balanced in parallel with each other also. One may lean left or right slightly but the other will need to mirror it exactly otherwise voices and instruments will sound unbalanced (unnaturally thin or bloated). This will also affect the dynamics. Loudspeakers are not built to the tolerances of the Egyptian Pyramids. So spirit levels provide merely a starting point. For this reason I would eschew any speaker which does not have adjustable feet. You will need them to 'dial in' your sound by ear. I tend to judge by listening to the bass because that is the most critical aspect of this particular exercise. 

It is the 'plane of the speaker Aray' which you need to focus on for alignment btw, not the bottom plinth or the top of the speaker. This sounds obvious but some manufacturers will put level bubbles in places that cannot possibly tell you any meaningful information. I have even seen some £20k speakers which were completely unable to be aligned because the tweeter module was simply not built in parralel with the other drivers on one of the speaker pair. 

Setup takes trial and error tests until you are happy and add to that 'your happy' may be different to mine depending how much bass you want etc. The positive here is that you can affect the sound substantially with your speakers and that is a good thing because we all have our preferences. Imo It pays to experiment. When it's right the musicality and clarity can be magical for most speakers with say a Dave front end. As with a recording studio mic though, it's not the mic so much as the efforts of person setting it up.


----------



## rkt31

@lovemov, foobar easily plays dsd256. I have checked with mojo. for such great piece of gear you can have a separate windows based transport or even an Android phone/tab with Uapp app. these are extremely minor issues considering the sq of Dave.


----------



## JaZZ

lovemov said:


> I have received the Dave today, it's loaner from my dealer, I will have several days to decide if I shall replace my current setup.
> 
> I only had it 2 hours now, so I need more time to listen to it. This will be amp direct to Sony Z1R compares to ZH1ES.
> 
> ...


 
  
 You don't need to do the switching between DSD and PCM – you can just leave it in either position, the sonic difference is barely noticeable, at least to my ears. That said, I don't play DSD recordings on a regular basis, just tested it briefly, so your mileage may vary.
  
 The display goes off for a second after each manipulation (for storing the new settings), that's normal.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

lovemov said:


> I have received the Dave today, it's loaner from my dealer, I will have several days to decide if I shall replace my current setup.
> 
> I only had it 2 hours now, so I need more time to listen to it. This will be amp direct to Sony Z1R compares to ZH1ES.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 1) DAVE plays DSD256 just fine.  Your players would be causing the issue (which I would imagine is fixable).  Perhaps your dealer (or Chord) can help you resolve that.
  
 2) No switching required.  DAVE will adapt.


----------



## Christer

daveredref-iii said:


> "Speakers are not one-night-stands.
> This may seem obvious, but a lot of people get struck by the gravity of a 200 pound monster (2 of them) sitting in their room that just doesn't sound right to them.
> And then reality bites."
> 
> ...


 

 One very  good way to check if your speakers are both phase coherent and properly set up is to try, first the test samples, and then if you like them  two albums from the mainly classical music and Grammy Award winning label Yarlung Records. On their homesite with the same name you can find some  testfiles in a newish recording  format called SONORUS which via a capable Stereo  system can deliver a more three -dimensional sound  than plain stereo from a two speaker system.
 If your speakers can reproduce the testfiles correctly as with the circling tones where a a beeping tone actually circles between the speakers and back around you  in a circular way behind you, or blackbirds singing behind you, you have both  good speakers and a phase coherent system.
 As you say there are many super expensive multi module speakers that are NOT phase coherent and will  not reproduce this effect.
 Luckily my MF KW 550 amp and my ML electrostatic speakers can.
 Unfortunately there are so far only two full albums recorded with this technique which aims to  approach the effect of real  five speaker ITU setups ie real surround as with many SACDs and other mch recordings.
 The effect of hearing the circling  tone behind you from only two speakers is also a bit like listening to a binaural recording via headphones.
 In fact quite amazing the first times you hear it. 
 But the SONORUS effect will not work via headphones.
 With music you are rewarded with a three dimensional soundstage that expands deeper both forward and back ,than plain stereo can reproduce.
 The two recordings are  the contemporary composer  James Mathesson's violin concerto played by the LAPO conducted by Esa pekka Salonen recorded at a live concert  in LA.
 A superb example of very listenable modern music coupled with  some of the same composer's songs for soprano accompanied by a grand piano.
 Especially the songs are some of the most realistic and lifelike DXD recordings I have heard via my  stereo system.
 The other just released  title, features violin sonatas by the young Sibelius.
 One of those tracks is also among the test tracks.
 Both titles can be downloaded as DSD downloads DSD 64, DSD 128 and DSD 256 or  in  DXD format from the download site
 Native DSD.com
 And if your system fails to do the job required they are also available in plain stereo and simply mic'd 5 mic setup ITU   REAL MCH.
 For those striving to set up an imaging-wise  and soundstage-wise optimised two  speaker based stereo system  not to be missed imho.
 Cheers Chris


----------



## jelt2359

romaz said:


> Regarding the premature proclamation of DAVE's obsolescence, there is one thing I am hoping will happen with DAVE in the not so distant future that will further enhance its value and appeal for those those of us who own a DAVE but also for those who are looking for a DAC and are wondering if Hugo2 is good enough or whether they should spend more for DAVE.  Rob has stated in the past that DAVE is capable of being upgraded via a code update but that he would never do it unless it resulted in a significant improvement to DAVE.  Perhaps, that time is now for the following reasons:
> 
> 1)  When paired with M-scaler, many of DAVE's DSP cores will now sit idle and I have wondered if these cores can be re-purposed for greater things?  Certainly, it would be ideal for DAVE users who don't plan to upgrade to M-scaler to have Hugo2's improved filters.  Some (Beolab, BMichels, and Jelt2359) have proposed filter options to tailor DAVE"s sound signature (warmer, cooler, neutral, etc) to help balance the tonal deficiencies in one's system.  dCS has such options.
> 
> ...




Great points! I missed this. I agree 100%. We can't be the only ones who think so!


----------



## Modwright01

I know my question is bit crazy but do you know if the dave works in OTG plugged into an Android phone ? Just wanted to use my phone as a source ...

Second question : better to read dsd natively or in dop mode ?

Thanks.


----------



## Clive101

modwright01 said:


> I know my question is bit crazy but do you know if the dave works in OTG plugged into an Android phone ? Just wanted to use my phone as a source ...
> 
> Second question : better to read dsd natively or in dop mode ?
> 
> Thanks.


 

 I have just tested my Onkyo DPX1 runs on Android and it works however my Samsung s3 also running Android does not work with Dave with OTG cable.
  
 In theory it should work maybe a driver issue...?
  
 Hope that helps


----------



## Modwright01

Ok, thanks.
  
 I found a OTG cable.
  
 Just check with the Samsung S7 and it works.

 But, something really weird :
  
 I use the Dave plugged into my computer (USB) with JRIVER in bit perfect 
  
 and play the same file with usb audio player pro in bitperfect with the S7 (dave connected with OTG) 
  
 and the sound  from the computer is  BETTER.
  
 While it is bit perfect, it could be EXACTLY the same, but it is not...Which means usb audio player is crap ?
  
 Really strange.


----------



## theveterans

modwright01 said:


> Ok, thanks.
> 
> I found a OTG cable.
> 
> ...


 
  
 No. It's the minute amounts of USB noise from the 4G/LTE antennas (even with Airplane mode). Also, USB power is not consistent due to "power states" with the chip which affects all of the motherboard's USB power output.


----------



## x RELIC x

modwright01 said:


> Ok, thanks.
> 
> I found a OTG cable.
> 
> ...




What does better mean to you? Rob has maintained the smoother sound is the more accurate. Is the computer brighter? Seems to have more perceived soundstage?


----------



## Modwright01

Better means better resolution, better details, smoother.


----------



## EVOLVIST

modwright01 said:


> Better means better resolution, better details, smoother.




Like drinking a banana smoothie with chalk in it. All of that detail.


----------



## x RELIC x

modwright01 said:


> Better means better resolution, better details, smoother.




Thanks, just curious what you hear is all. Some would say an overall brighter tonality is better, for them. Some might prefer a darker/smoother sound. Some don't focus on resolution or timing. It helps get an idea of the improvements if knowing what the improvements are.


----------



## Modwright01

Yes but Not sure for the chalk. I vote for chocolate chips.


----------



## Deftone

modwright01 said:


> Ok, thanks.
> 
> I found a OTG cable.
> 
> ...


 

 ​i get the same thing with my mojo running from jriver bit perfect from pc, it sounds better than my phone with UAPP on OTG.
  
 more detailed, better attacks but still just as smooth.


----------



## lovemov

After several days with loaner Dave, the DAC and headphone Amp combo is quite nice. I like the sound.
 However, I have pretty much decided that I will return it soon. Due to the following reason, ok, maybe only one, the 1st one is really important.
  
 1. DSD file sounded wonderful in DSD+ mode, much better than in PCM+ mode; PCM file under PCM+ is slightly better than in DSD+ mode. At least my eyes told me this. So, auto switching between PCM and DSD is really a must in this DAC. I am sure this can be done via firmware update? I understand the switching will take 10 seconds or more due to programming/rebooting etc, but this is ok. I just can't accept the fact now I have to push 2 button several times to manually switch it. It's very painful.
  
  
 2. DSD256 playback under Mac. I have tried DSD256 under windows with jriver, and it plays fine. So this isn't a deal breaker at least for now. But I am sure this is also can be easily fixed for MacOS by a simple firmware update?
  
  
 So my conclusion is like, I do like Dave (this is the first Chord DAC I have heard in home audition.) And if there is no other better options in the near future, Dave(or maybe Dave 2?) will be my 1st upgrading target, if the 1st issue got resolved.


----------



## EVOLVIST

lovemov said:


> I understand the switching will take 10 seconds or more due to programming/rebooting etc, but this is ok. I just can't accept the fact now I have to push 2 button several times to manually switch it. It's very painful.




Can you describe this pain? Is it more of a burning sensation, or a dull ache, or a stabbing pain perhaps? On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the greatest pain you've ever felt, what number would you assign your pain on this scale? Does it last for the entire 10 seconds, or more than that, or less than that?


----------



## lovemov

evolvist said:


> Can you describe this pain? Is it more of a burning sensation, or a dull ache, or a stabbing pain perhaps? On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the greatest pain you've ever felt, what number would you assign your pain on this scale? Does it last for the entire 10 seconds, or more than that, or less than that?


 

 I am old and lazy guy, so I can scale it at 3, mostly inconvenient. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Well, for spending almost like $7K more than my currently DAC, I buy into improved SQ and no major feature shortage.
  
 I like my system to be setup once and then forget it, just throw music into it, hit the play and enjoy, occasionally volume adjusting of course...
  
 OK, I'd say, if this switching thing can be made of 1 button click, that will reduce the pain level to 1, which I will accept. Dave is a great DAC to my ears and is an innovative idea after reading some posts here, I don't expect it's flawless, but this PCM/DSD setting thingy should be fairly easy to associated with incoming signal format. right?


----------



## Modwright01

Same here so i think i gonnz decide to play dsd in dop mode which means dsd will be transcode into pcm and stop switching between pcm to dsd+ mode. Plus, sometimes i just do not know if i play pcm or dsd because i do not look at the screen... i think dop is the solution.


----------



## PhilW

modwright01 said:


> Ok, thanks.
> 
> I found a OTG cable.
> 
> ...


 it's not crap.... but the UAC2 implementation isnt as good as the pc driver.


----------



## x RELIC x

modwright01 said:


> Same here so i think i gonnz decide to play *dsd in dop mode which means dsd will be transcode into pcm *and stop switching between pcm to dsd+ mode. Plus, sometimes i just do not know if i play pcm or dsd because i do not look at the screen... i think dop is the solution.




DSD over PCM does not in any way *transcode* DSD to PCM. *This is a complete myth*. DoP was developed because there really is no standard for transferring DSD over USB so DoP fools the USB in thinking it's a PCM signal for stability. The DAC still plays the DSD file unchanged from the original.

http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/support/what-is-dop-dsd-over-pcm/




> _The original idea for DoP was invented by dCS in 2011. It involves taking groups of 16 adjacent 1-bit samples from a DSD stream and packing them into the lower 16 bits of a 24/176.4 data stream. Data from the other channel of the stereo pair is packed the same way. A specific marker code in the top 8 bits identifies the data stream as DoP, rather than PCM. The resulting DoP stream can be transmitted through existing 24/192-capable USB, AES, Dual AES or SPDIF interfaces to a DoP-compatible DAC, which *reassembles the original stereo DSD data stream COMPLETELY UNCHANGED*.
> 
> If something goes wrong and the data stream is decoded as PCM, the output will be low-level noise with faint music in the back ground, so it fails safely. This can happen if the computer erases the marker code by applying a volume adjustment._




More information:

http://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard#.WKF8G5H9efA

http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/dop-isnt-pcm/


----------



## Modwright01

Thanks I didn't know that.
  
 So same problem...and...
  
 I'm gonna transcode my dsd file into PCM so to solve the problem


----------



## jlbrach

evolvist said:


> Can you describe this pain? Is it more of a burning sensation, or a dull ache, or a stabbing pain perhaps? On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the greatest pain you've ever felt, what number would you assign your pain on this scale? Does it last for the entire 10 seconds, or more than that, or less than that?


 
 yes,brutal pain...quite an incredible ordeal


----------



## EVOLVIST

evolvist said:


> Okay, so tell me if I'm right or wrong, or somewhere in between:
> 
> DAVE: preamp mode
> 
> ...




Okay, I'm still trying to figure this out about the DAVE. I haven't thought about it in a few days, but now that I am it's bugging me. 

The unknown variable here is that there are no shown specs for the amps that DAVE generates with the 3vRMS to 6.7RMS before the DAVE starts to clip above +4db out of the RCA outputs. 

I found a chart on this e-cig site, but I don't trust the data. It's not audio. 

http://vapeordie.com/vape/voltage-wattage-chart/ 

So, does anybody know how to gauge what wattage comes out of the DAVE pre-amp based upon any of the above? I don't even know if the above data is at all applicable. What am I missing here besides knowing the amp (if even that's the case)?


----------



## PANURUS

I will send you a private mail


----------



## Hubert H

Hi Jelt,

No I haven't although I did own a pair - I was going to replace the ACTs with Vertex and a Torus or two but didn't want to get into more amps, floor space, cables etc so stuck with the ACTs.

I'm currently waiting for a loan pair of Vectors but a while ago had new mid drivers in the ACTs and they so much better - I damaged the old ones when I auditioned Dave and didn't switch to pre-amp mode and as the mids are directly connected... 

Anyway, the drivers in the Geometry series are 2 generations on plus they have the new WB developed tweeter.

If you have the money and want smaller speakers the Discovery II may be an option.


----------



## analogmusic

Hello Rob
  
 what does the phase setting on the Dave do?

 What is the default setting for this (negative of positive?)
  
 Thanks


----------



## EVOLVIST

This thread has been dead.


----------



## Modwright01

Hahahaha


----------



## miketlse (Aug 29, 2020)

analogmusic said:


> Hello Rob
> 
> what does the phase setting on the Dave do?
> 
> ...




just search this thread using a the keyword phase.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/6180#post_13095674

Some users recommend leaving it switched off all the time, others prefer some cds with it switched positive, and others negative.

There is no 'correct' answer, but a lot of personal preference. Experiment if you wish, but beware of the risk of OCD and audiophilia nervosa


----------



## Modwright01

Seriously all those options make no audible differences (only hp out tested) except crossfeed and dsd or pcm mode. If you can here a difference you are a bat.


----------



## Kamil21

analogmusic said:


> Hello Rob
> 
> what does the phase setting on the Dave do?
> 
> ...




I'm not Rob, but the answer is rather straightforward:

Some recordings are recorded with the the phase inverted due to wiring, equipment etc. Hence positive phase cones out as negative.

Some loudspeakers and playback equipment can also be wired with an inverted phase.

Generally if everything is recorded in positive phase, all is good, the phase switch is there to correct (or invert the phase). I.e. Negative on negative makes positive.

The default setting is positive.


----------



## Crgreen

But as someone once pointed out to me: how many times is phase inverted between the microphones and the final master? I may however, have missed the point.


----------



## rgs9200m

I have a phase switch on my EMM, but I found that I never want to invert the phase.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Today I used my DAVE to drive some rather inefficient speakers, rated at 86db - 8ohm - 15watts, as I'm waiting for my Compact Omega Alnico monitors to come in. So, it was just a test. 

Even with these crap speakers, let me tell you at 0db the DAVE drove them to a good listening volume. Indeed, I couldn't quite believe the realism this combo produced, and the owner of the speakers remarked that he had never heard these little speakers sound that good. 

The DAVE wins again! even in an off-the-cuff test that gave me only a slight indication of what might be in store for me. 

Ugghhh... My speakers are about a month out. Dammit! I want an Oompa Loompa now!! Heh.


----------



## Modwright01

Whaaat ? Dave can drive speakers ? This is a preamp not an amp !


----------



## JaZZ

modwright01 said:


> Whaaat ? Dave can drive speakers ? This is a preamp not an amp !


 
  
 Until two years ago my TV's headphone output has driven a pair of (homemade) fullrange speakers.


----------



## EVOLVIST

modwright01 said:


> Whaaat ? Dave can drive speakers ? This is a preamp not an amp !




Yes, DAVE can drive some speakers. Only 8ohm speakers, the higher the efficiency the better, like 93db and higher, and something like the single driver variety, Omega Alnico speaker range. A couple of forum member have already done it to good results with these speakers only requiring 2Watts.


----------



## SunWarrior

What sort of cable(s) would you use from the Dave to the speakers?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## EVOLVIST

sunwarrior said:


> What sort of cable(s) would you use from the Dave to the speakers?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




I just had a guy in town make me some test cables, Mogami, RCA on one end and pos/neg bananas on the other end of each. Worked like a charm for starters.


----------



## adyc

My dealer told me first batch of blu2 will arrive end of March.


----------



## rgs9200m

I can actually recommend the Mogami cables (as Evolvist did just above). They are full sounding and refined and kind of amazing for the price (not much more expensive than lamp cord from and audiophile perspective). I have them on my Piega speakers.
 (This is not with a Dave, just a regular amp.)


----------



## Zoom25

Grimm TPR should also get a strong consideration. It's slightly more expensive than Mogami but easily worth the difference. The TPR is based on the reference TPM which goes for $500. I use Mogami 2549, 3173, and 2964 as a reference. Other mastering guys will back me up on this. Cheers.


----------



## Christer

jazz said:


> Until two years ago my TV's headphone output has driven a pair of (homemade) fullrange speakers.


 

 And where are you located in the room listening to those speakers?
 Levitating somewhere in mid-air ?
 From what I can see those speaker cones are firing  into your ceiling or somewhere up the opposite wall.
 For accurate soundstage and pinpoint location of instruments over the entire audible range one needs speakers aligned  properly  if one wants as close as possible a replica of how things sounded  in the hall live with simple miking.
 There are in my experience no better speakers for this than well made electrostatic or planar full range speakers.
 And Neither DAVE nor any other DAC from Chord are  capable of  driving  such speakers on their own.
 Real Highend full range speakers capable of reproducing a symphony orchestra  reasonably believably  are power hungry, often very power hungry.
 With the almost only exception being Horn speakers.
 I use a  Highend 900 watts per channel  MF amp combo with a separate heavy duty/weight power supply to drive my speakers.
 In the 70s and into the 80s there were quite a few speakers delivering a hazy non localized sound everywhere. And they where popular with people listening to music as a background, but avoided by listeners to classical music who took soundstage and realism seriously.
 Omnidirectional speakers  are imho unsuitable for what Robs dacs are aiming to deliver, a realistic soundstage with both depth and resolution.


----------



## rkt31

imho planar and electrostatic speakers fail to comply the point source requirement of stereo imaging. single driver full range driver speakers comply to that. but full range drivers at high volume may struggle to reproduce the dynamics of full scale orchestra. in that respect concentric driver arrangement used by kef is extremely good for stereo imaging.


----------



## Christer

rkt31 said:


> imho planar and electrostatic speakers fail to comply the point source requirement of stereo imaging. single driver full range driver speakers comply to that. but full range drivers at high volume may struggle to reproduce the dynamics of full scale orchestra. in that respect concentric driver arrangement used by kef is extremely good for stereo imaging.


 

 Each to his or her own.
  
 But to my ears the following quote applies very much with my ,taller than me, electrostatic speakers in my home  system.
  
 "In a typical home environment, a true line source must be on the order of five to six feet tall, (or more.)
 While this setup isn't for everyone, the result is a level of realism that few people have experienced. It is genuinely like "being there,"
  
  
 I also think the recent raving reviews of ML's latest flagship electrostatic speakers like Neolith and Renaissance 15A from every reviewer so far  in the  international audio press of Highend speakers  also  supports my view of what sounds truly  realistic.
 If you have  large scale acoustic music as your reference there are few other speakers that come close to the realism both BIG electrostatic and planar  line source speakers can  deliver imho.
 Not for everone. But nevertheless about as close to the real thing as present technology allows if you have both  the space and money to indulge.


----------



## JaZZ

christer said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Until two years ago my TV's headphone output has driven a pair of (homemade) fullrange speakers.
> ...


 
  
 We're going off topic, but I have to respond to your criticism. Yes, those speakers fire somewhat to the ceiling – just 20° or so – to get some reflections from there. More precisely: to slightly minimize the inhomogeneity of their frequency content – sadly an inevitable byproduct of conventional fullrange speakers. I've experimented with those, but finally cancelled their use for music reproduction and my demands (primarily due to their radiation), but still acknowledge their capabilities apart from their «unnatural» radiation pattern and can certainly reproduce others' preference for them. However, aggravating the radiation issue by letting their high frequencies fire straight into your ears is a crude idea. It has its origin in the fact that otherwise the direct sound would lack the necessary high-frequency extension. With above speakers that's avoided in that they're elaborately equalized by passive «crossover» components within them (with the complexity of a three-way system) and additionally actively.
  
 I have already stated my sound philosophy – which is quite a bit different from yours – in an earlier post. BTW, with respect to the power-hungriness: Romaz uses a subwoofer for supporting the directly driven Omegas.


----------



## ubs28

Since people are talking about speakers in this thread, has anyone tried to using the Chord Dave + Chord Amps + B&W 802 D3 speakers?
  
 I have been quite impressed by these B&W 802 D3 given their "modest" price in comparison to super expensive speakers. But I have only heard the B&W 802 D3 on ultra high-end setups.


----------



## miketlse

ubs28 said:


> Since people are talking about speakers in this thread, has anyone tried to using the Chord Dave + Chord Amps + B&W 802 D3 speakers?
> 
> I have been quite impressed by these B&W 802 D3 given their "modest" price in comparison to super expensive speakers. But I have only heard the B&W 802 D3 on ultra high-end setups.


 
  
 I had a quick search, and the nearest that I found is this post and the following couple of posts.
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/7515#post_13244625


----------



## Christer

ubs28 said:


> Since people are talking about speakers in this thread, has anyone tried to using the Chord Dave + Chord Amps + B&W 802 D3 speakers?
> 
> I have been quite impressed by these B&W 802 D3 given their "modest" price in comparison to super expensive speakers. But I have only heard the B&W 802 D3 on ultra high-end setups.


 

 B&W speakers are used by some,mainly classical music labels, in their mastering rooms and are imho some of the best  conventional box speakers with  several  cones and  several points of crossover filter  needed for conventional speakers on the market.
 There is a  "sound reason" why they are used in such situations. But again imho, large tall, line source speakers like electrostatic speakers from ML and some others are even better than B&W.
 Once again, one of the things Rob is aiming for with his dacs is  ultra fast transient speed.No speaker I know of beats electrostatic speakers in that respect.
 And with the tallest of those you don't have to sit down to listen to music.
 I am pretty sure they will sound very impressive via DAVE and suitable amplification in a largish room.


----------



## JaZZ

christer said:


> Once again, one of the things Rob is aiming for with his dacs is ultra fast transient speed.No speaker I know of beats electrostatic speakers in that respect.
> ...
> I am pretty sure they will sound very impressive via DAVE and suitable amplification in a largish room.


 
  
 Ultra-fast attack may be true for electrostatic speakers, but the downside is ultra-slow decay. Have a look at corresponding waterfall diagrams (e.g. for Stax headphones)! Moreover, their stators represent ultra-large reflective sufaces making for near-field reflections of a specific characteristic which is mainly responsible for their ethereality. Also, their unique radiation pattern makes for a unique indirect sound characteristc in a listening room, which isn't to everyone's taste and can't be called «natural» (dipole characteristic, rear reflections...).
  
 To your second point: I'm pretty sure there are some DAVE owners who enjoy its sound according to their own sonic ideals and preferences, even without electrostats...


----------



## rkt31

it may not very pertinent to mention here about kef ls50, amongst the discussion of b&ws and electrostatics, purely because ls50 are far cheaper than these. these speakers have the ability to throw an extremely precise image . though these can't match the scale of line speakers etc but due to their small front baffle and small dual concentric drivers, these behave as a very small point sound source thus projecting a very precise image. imho if the 'toe in' angle is correct , there is no need to sit or stand specially for nearly point source speakers. in other words there is no need of sweet spot .where ever you stand you get the imaging as if you are changing your location in a real live performance.


----------



## rkt31

in a live performance if you move closer, you don't just hear the performers louder but also the sounds start coming from far left and right and vice versa when you move farther from the performers. similarly correctly placed stereo speakers should give the same effect/imaging when you move closer or farther, in a way the limitations of sweet spot should not be there. this correct placement requires a bit of trial for correctly setting the toe in angle. this is not the angle of triangle made by joining the speakers and listening position, this is few degrees inward from straight firing position and depends on many factors including room condition, distance between the speakers, distance from the wall etc.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I think Ribbon speakers have a number of desirable characteristics that are important to good speaker design. Specifically Ultra light weight, and therefore significant speed and lack of distortion. Electrostatics will go down fairly low as a single driver solution but at least Piega found a solution in designing a ribbon tweeter and mid in one unit on a single plane. This doesn't crossover till 400hz which is reasonably low. The overall mating to Dave seems to have a wow factor for friends and relatives that was not so evident with the Dave and a silk dome or metal tweeter. Speed definitely counts.

Overall though, we all have preferences in how our music is delivered and my take on electrostatics is their obvious speed and clean delivery is hard to argue against. My personal preference is for all instruments to have weight in their image reincarnation and for me ELS speakers sometimes lack that palpability which can leave the music sounding like hifi to me rather than the presence of a performance. Equally at the other end of the spectrum I have listened to many a speaker that can get palpability with their weight but aren't fast enough to deliver a balanced, true rendition of the instruments signature. Every speaker has compromises. One has only to see the frequency tests on Stereophile to understand that. 

I am still in awe of what Dave delivers though. No such worries. Rob have you thought about puting your mind to speaker design?


----------



## JaZZ

Yeah, ribbon speakers are maybe the fastest sound transducers available (considering both attack and delay plus the lack of reflecting components in front and at the back of the membrane), apart from plasma flames. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Not to be mixed up with planar magnetic drivers (e.g. Piega sqawker). If they only weren't so long/high! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
*Breaking News:*
  
Hugo² enables dual-data mode, which means it is fully M-Scaler compatible!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

It'll be interesting to read the first serious review of the Blu 2 M Scaler. I can't help but expect it to be one of those game changer products. More so than Dave was.


----------



## miketlse

jazz said:


> Yeah, ribbon speakers are maybe the fastest sound transducers available (considering both attack and delay plus the lack of reflecting components in front and at the back of the membrane), apart from plasma flames.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hugo 2 gets more interesting, the more that we find out about it.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jazz said:


> [COLOR=FF0000]*Breaking News:*[/COLOR]
> 
> Hugo² enables dual-data mode, which means it is fully M-Scaler compatible!




Wait, isn't Rob saying that there is NOT dual BNC inputs in the Hugo2? That's how I read it.


----------



## x RELIC x

evolvist said:


> Wait, isn't Rob saying that there is NOT dual BNC inputs in the Hugo2? That's how I read it.




The dual coaxial is in a 3.5mm coaxial input jack for space considerations.


----------



## GryphonGuy

ubs28 said:


> Since people are talking about speakers in this thread, has anyone tried to using the Chord Dave + Chord Amps + B&W 802 D3 speakers?
> 
> I have been quite impressed by these B&W 802 D3 given their "modest" price in comparison to super expensive speakers. But I have only heard the B&W 802 D3 on ultra high-end setups.


 

 ​I run 802D's from Krell 400wpc amplifier and the DAVE feeds directly into the Krell using balanced cables. This clearly provides the best sound from my system to date (better than krell's CAST connection which I used to use through KCT preamp).
  
 Cheers
 GG


----------



## esimms86

daveredref-iii said:


> It'll be interesting to read the first serious review of the Blu 2 M Scaler. I can't help but expect it to be one of those game changer products. More so than Dave was.


 

 My guess is that the first review of the Blu 2 will be one where it's used as a CD transport, i.e., not focused on it's use as an M scalar specifically in conjunction with Dave. That is, unless Chord sends Dave and the Blu 2 as a pair to reviewers(not saying that isn't possible...). As I write this I still wait in Samuel Beckett fashion for Stereophile and The Absolute Sound to print a review of Dave.


----------



## Kamil21

Rob Watts
I would welcome an answer to this from you or anyone else as there is no description in the Chord Dave manual. Apologies if this is already documented elsewhere and I would appreciate the link.

On the DX output of Dave..

What is the format of this? Is it based on any industry standard I can reference or is this Chord proprietary?

1) I know that is reserved for the Chord amplifiers but I am wondering if it will work with other digital active speakers whick can take 768k input. 

2) Is the Chord volume control effecting this?

3) I am assuming with 4 outputs, thus is for left/right channel but is there a way to reconfigure this from the menu.

Thanks!


----------



## analogmusic

evolvist said:


> Wait, isn't Rob saying that there is NOT dual BNC inputs in the Hugo2? That's how I read it.


 
  
 I'm a bit confused. Even Mojo can accept 768 KHZ signal through its coax input?


----------



## Rob Watts

kamil21 said:


> @Rob Watts
> I would welcome an answer to this from you or anyone else as there is no description in the Chord Dave manual. Apologies if this is already documented elsewhere and I would appreciate the link.
> 
> On the DX output of Dave..
> ...


 
 DX is a regular SPDIF in AES dual data format - but with a special user data that has the required volume control data. So the data sent is not attenuated, I just send the required volume control data.
  
 Its two parallel data, left and right with no configuration settings.  


analogmusic said:


> evolvist said:
> 
> 
> > Wait, isn't Rob saying that there is NOT dual BNC inputs in the Hugo2? That's how I read it.
> ...


 
 Mojo is 768 via USB only. Coax is 384 kHz max.
  
 Hugo 2 is dual data on its two coaxial inputs - its a feature I have just added to the Hugo 2 production code.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

ubs28 said:


> Since people are talking about speakers in this thread, has anyone tried to using the Chord Dave + Chord Amps + B&W 802 D3 speakers?
> 
> I have been quite impressed by these B&W 802 D3 given their "modest" price in comparison to super expensive speakers. But I have only heard the B&W 802 D3 on ultra high-end setups.


 
 I think the best sound I have ever heard away from my living room was precisely this set-up. It was at the Tokyo audio fair last year, and half a dozen Dave owners - who were Japanese reviewers - were doing presentations using this system and using their music. It sounded glorious, and was goose-bump emotionally involving music all the time.
  
 Sometimes it can be frustrating attending shows with a distributor set-up - poor acoustics, or a not too good set-up, can leave one feeling disappointed. But this system was in the zone; and I thought I do not care what anybody else in the room thought as for me this was making music - this is what audio is all about.
  
 Rob


----------



## analogmusic

So Hugo 2 can now accept million taps of M scaler ? Wow !


----------



## Beolab

analogmusic said:


> So Hugo 2 can now accept million taps of M scaler ? Wow !




It seems like it, yes!


----------



## PhiQuanTu

I assume the Hugo 2 and Dave's gap would be even narrower when both serve as secondary device after pairing up with the M-scaler?


----------



## onlychild

phiquantu said:


> I assume the Hugo 2 and Dave's gap would be even narrower when both serve as secondary device after pairing up with the M-scaler?




I was thinking the same thing. Now considering purchasing a blu2+hugo2 vs just the DAVE.


----------



## JaZZ

It's very much possible that a Hugo² with M-Scaler sounds better than a DAVE alone (that also depends on the headphone output for those with this priority). The price would be similar, but you also gain portablity. On the other hand you lose some desktop ergonomy.
  
 Somehow the combo Hugo² + M-Scaler seems a bit odd in terms of price discrepancy. So why not phantasize about a matching, affordable stand-alone M-Scaler, despite Chord's denial?!


----------



## maxh22

jazz said:


> It's very much possible that a Hugo² with M-Scaler sounds better than a DAVE alone (that also depends on the headphone output for those with this priority). The price would be similar, but you also gain portablity. On the other hand you lose some desktop ergonomy.
> 
> Somehow the combo Hugo² + M-Scaler seems a bit odd in terms of price discrepancy. So why not phantasize about a matching, affordable stand-alone M-Scaler, despite Chord's denial?!


 

Taps 2Go


----------



## ray-dude

rob watts said:


> I think the best sound I have ever heard away from my living room was precisely this set-up. It was at the Tokyo audio fair last year, and half a dozen Dave owners - who were Japanese reviewers - were doing presentations using this system and using their music. It sounded glorious, and was goose-bump emotionally involving music all the time.
> 
> Sometimes it can be frustrating attending shows with a distributor set-up - poor acoustics, or a not too good set-up, can leave one feeling disappointed. But this system was in the zone; and I thought I do not care what anybody else in the room thought as for me this was making music - this is what audio is all about.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 As a B&W 802d3 owner, that is (literally) music to my ears Rob!  I have not spent any time researching the Chord amp line.  Do you recall which amps were paired with the DAVE and 802d3's?  I've found the speakers to be generally forgiving, but they really get that something special when paired with the right amps.


----------



## ubs28

rob watts said:


> I think the best sound I have ever heard away from my living room was precisely this set-up. It was at the Tokyo audio fair last year, and half a dozen Dave owners - who were Japanese reviewers - were doing presentations using this system and using their music. It sounded glorious, and was goose-bump emotionally involving music all the time.
> 
> Sometimes it can be frustrating attending shows with a distributor set-up - poor acoustics, or a not too good set-up, can leave one feeling disappointed. But this system was in the zone; and I thought I do not care what anybody else in the room thought as for me this was making music - this is what audio is all about.
> 
> Rob




Good to hear. Maybe I'll go for the Chord amplifiers.


----------



## JaZZ

ubs28 said:


> rob watts said:
> 
> 
> > I think the best sound I have ever heard away from my living room was precisely this set-up. It was at the Tokyo audio fair last year, and half a dozen Dave owners - who were Japanese reviewers - were doing presentations using this system and using their music. It sounded glorious, and was goose-bump emotionally involving music all the time.
> ...


 
  
 Better wait for Rob's «digital» class A amplifier for the DAVE! Possibly another breakthrough product.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jazz said:


> Better wait for Rob's «digital» class A amplifier for the DAVE! Possibly another breakthrough product.




Yeah, here's the rub on that amp. Nobody knows how much it'll cost. That's what's kinda bugging me right now. I friggin' hate the march of technology sometimes.


----------



## rgs9200m

Class A amps run extremely hot. My Pass could heat up a whole room. Sure sounded nice though.


----------



## Christer

rgs9200m said:


> Class A amps run extremely hot. My Pass could heat up a whole room. Sure sounded nice though.


 

 They do indeed. My MF amp also  often serves as the only heating needed in my listening room during sometimes a bit chilly Swedish summer nights. 
 And although design comes very far back on my list of preferences regarding HI FI products I have to admit that both its visually  very impressive  heavy-weight  and size and those orange feet shining faintly under the poweramp section  when it is  properly warmed up provides enough light to navigate around an otherwise darkened room at night.


----------



## Christer

jazz said:


> It's very much possible that a Hugo² with M-Scaler sounds better than a DAVE alone (that also depends on the headphone output for those with this priority). The price would be similar, but you also gain portablity. On the other hand you lose some desktop ergonomy.
> 
> Somehow the combo Hugo² + M-Scaler seems a bit odd in terms of price discrepancy. So why not phantasize about a matching, affordable stand-alone M-Scaler, despite Chord's denial?!


 

 Hello JaZZ, I am certainly with you all the way in this "phantasy." One of the main reasons apart from its ridiculous price I did NOT buy a DAVE,was advice given  from among others Ted over at Computer Audiophile.
 With recent developments I am very happy that I resisted.
 With a bit of luck things may  now have  matured to a level where I might both "have the cake and eat it". 
 The possiblility of a non compromise home DAC that can also serve as a near SOTA DAC on my travels sounds very tempting indeed to me..


----------



## AndrewOld

jazz said:


> It's very much possible that a Hugo² with M-Scaler sounds better than a DAVE alone (that also depends on the headphone output for those with this priority). The price would be similar, but you also gain portablity. On the other hand you lose some desktop ergonomy.
> 
> Somehow the combo Hugo² + M-Scaler seems a bit odd in terms of price discrepancy. So why not phantasize about a matching, affordable stand-alone M-Scaler, despite Chord's denial?!


 

 The stand alone M Scaler has to happen. Rob has already said he would never have put the M Scaler in with the Blu2 had he known how good the M Scaler was. He also said how quick it was to add a USB input to the Blu2. How can it not be simple to just drop the mechanism from the Blu2 and produce what so many of us want - a stand alone M Scaler. A 7kg CD mechanism as a front end to a portable DAC makes even less sense than it does to DAVE owners who have no CDs.  But maybe the dual inputs on the Hugo 2 can be read the other way ... that Chord are considering bringing the M Scaler technology into the price range of the Hugo 2, perhaps as a stand alone box or perhaps with a streamer. I hope they are thinking carefully about the future.


----------



## Kamil21

andrewold said:


> The stand alone M Scaler has to happen. Rob has already said he would never have put the M Scaler in with the Blu2 had he known how good the M Scaler was. He also said how quick it was to add a USB input to the Blu2. How can it not be simple to just drop the mechanism from the Blu2 and produce what so many of us want - a stand alone M Scaler. A 7kg CD mechanism as a front end to a portable DAC makes even less sense than it does to DAVE owners who have no CDs.  But maybe the dual inputs on the Hugo 2 can be read the other way ... that Chord are considering bringing the M Scaler technology into the price range of the Hugo 2, perhaps as a stand alone box or perhaps with a streamer. I hope they are thinking carefully about the future.




I would guess that a cheaper, Hugo like M Scaler would be dependent on the availability of a low power, lower cost processor. At the moment the Blu2 M Scaler is running on a top end processor with power requirements that are challenging for a portable device... so maybe a 0.5M Scaler built into a Poly like device?


----------



## JaZZ

I don't think a _portable_, battery-driven M-Scaler is an option, not for the near future anyway. Personally I would consider it overkill, also in that it perverts the portability aspect. Most of the time I enjoy the music more just with the burden of a small DAP in my pocket or on my arm despite the sonic compromize. After all (real) mobility represents half of the ingredients of mobile music listening. A triple stack in the kilograms range brings the system closer to a transportable than a portable system.


----------



## AndrewOld

kamil21 said:


> I would guess that a cheaper, Hugo like M Scaler would be dependent on the availability of a low power, lower cost processor. At the moment the Blu2 M Scaler is running on a top end processor with power requirements that are challenging for a portable device... so maybe a 0.5M Scaler built into a Poly like device?




Who knows? I'm just confused. What are Chord imagining will be used with the dual inputs of the Hugo2?


----------



## TheAttorney

christer said:


> One of the main reasons apart from its ridiculous price I did NOT buy a DAVE,was advice given  from among others Ted over at Computer Audiophile.
> With recent developments I am very happy that I resisted.
> With a bit of luck things may  now have  matured to a level where I might both "have the cake and eat it".
> The possiblility of a non compromise home DAC that can also serve as a near SOTA DAC on my travels sounds very tempting indeed to me..


 
 Do you mind summarising Ted's and others advice about DAVE?
  
 Regarding waiting for the next model, the obvious downside of that strategy is that there is _always_ a next model. And in the meantime, you're making do with something less than you could have. We've all been there. What happens when Chord announces in 2018 the incredible 1 tera tap "TT-Scaler" that is not quite compatible with whatever model combination you bought in 2017?  
  
 Having said that, I agree that it's still a rather confusing limbo time for existing and budding DAVE owners. We could do with a more helpful statement of intent from the Chord team. Along the lines of the USB input added to the Blue-2 that made everyone happier. Remember Chord, this is not a "problem", it's an "opportunity"!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Just thought I would mention, that I just purchased a blues album on Prestige Profiles by 'Lightnin' Hopkins'. Bearing in mind most authentic blues albums were recorded on a shoestring, I was pleasantly surprised by the quality. 

If you like your blues predominantly played on acoustic and with a consistently good groove then this is worth checking out. He really did have a nice group of musicians working with him. Nicely understated but accomplished. The feel throughout the album is excellent. 

Also it is pleasing to find an acoustic guitar recorded well from this era. Often the singer would get the best mic and the acoustic would get little to no real attention in regard to natural mic placing and fidelity. Not bad for a group of essentially low bubdget 55 year old blues recordings.


----------



## AndrewOld

theattorney said:


> ..
> 
> Having said that, I agree that it's still a rather confusing limbo time for existing and budding DAVE owners. We could do with a more helpful statement of intent from the Chord team. Along the lines of the USB input added to the Blue-2 that made everyone happier. Remember Chord, this is not a "problem", it's an "opportunity"!



The USB input didn't make me happy at all I'm afraid. I thought it was just a bodge. Doesn't do anything for the DAVE owners who don't have any CDs. Unless you think we are stupid enough to buy a very expensive and utterly redundant transport for a medium we abandoned (in my case) over a decade ago.


----------



## Beolab

But who said that the M-Scaler should be transportable, i have not seen anyone say that. What everyone wants is just the M-Scaler in a separate alu case with optical , usb and coax input and for me it can draw continuously 20A if it would 


I think this will happen, but more likely during 2018, so just have a little patience, because we discuss things here that are not even released yet.


----------



## rkt31

this thread either talks about using Dave directly with single driver speakers ( few watts ) or 1000+ watts mono blocks driving big line speakers and similar. there is no problem in that as it depends on one's choice and cash to spare. but the problem with 1000+ watts mono blocks is that they don't offer higher input sensitivity to fully utilize the dave's high output, means they depend upon large gain . say an 8 ohm speakers will require about 90v output to reach 1000 watts, at 2v input sensitivity ( this is norm even with most expensive amps ) which is huge gain factor around 33db . this much gain ultimately reduces the transparency and amplifies the flaws of associated equipments, RMI and emi interference etc. imho until unless someone requires to fill a huge hall, these big speakers ( and thus 1000+ watt mono blocks amp) are not required. due to their big size they can lack in imaging specially in medium to small rooms. imho better solution is to use a pair of good quality bookshelf having around 40 to 45 Hz lower frequency response and if required a powered sub with variable cross over can be used to fill in for lower frequencies.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I would like to see an 'optional' firmware upgrade for Dave users wishing to link with the Blu2 M Scaler. (In order to make the most of any redundant Dave processing power.) I wouldn't criticise Chord for not doing this but I see it as an opportunity to further set the brand apart from their competitors. Fuji have taken such a tac in the Digital photography arena over the last 5-6 years issuing free firmware upgrades to address customer suggestions where they can be accommodated and it has been very well received. It has set them apart from the other majors and reportedly played a strong part in Pro photographers making the jump away from Canon and Nikon formats. Fuji is now known as the photography company that listens to their customers needs. Sometimes doing 'the thing that consumers know you needn't have done' is a very potent marketing strategy. Richard Branson has made a career of it. 

As I say there should be no criticism of Chord for doing nothing, as would be the case with the sector as a whole but I think a unique commercial opportunity appears to have come about with the advent of the Blu2 M Scaler. Food for thought perhaps.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

....I would add that I would be prepared to pay for such a firmware upgrade, should it be possible to do. Of course I may be wrong...?


----------



## AndrewOld

beolab said:


> But who said that the M-Scaler should be transportable, i have not seen anyone say that. What everyone wants is just the M-Scaler in a separate alu box with optical , usb and coax input and for me it can draw continuously 20A if it would
> 
> 
> I think this will happen, but more likely during 2018, so just have a little patience, because we discuss things here that are not even released yet.



 
Completely agree with you about "just the M Scaler in a separate alu box ..".  Box doesn't need to be over-engineered either.
 
But what do you imagine Chord have in mind to connect to the dual inputs of the Hugo2?


----------



## JaZZ

andrewold said:


> Completely agree with you about "just the M Scaler in a separate blu box ..".  Box doesn't need to be over-engineered either.
> 
> *But what do you imagine Chord have in mind to connect to the dual inputs of the Hugo2?*


 
  
 Exactly!                  (




 )


----------



## PhiQuanTu

It is more profitable for Chord to come out with a Dave2 than to "upgrade" the Dave 1 for everybody.


----------



## Clive101

andrewold said:


> Completely agree with you about "just the M Scaler in a separate blu box ..".  Box doesn't need to be over-engineered either.
> 
> But what do you imagine Chord have in mind to connect to the dual inputs of the Hugo2?I


 
 I also agree M Scaler in a box.


----------



## EVOLVIST

phiquantu said:


> It is more profitable for Chord to come out with a Dave2 than to "upgrade" the Dave 1 for everybody.




I don't think there's going to be anything like a DAVE2 for quite some time - several years, I'm sure. Rob has even said as much. 

I'm pretty sure the reason being is because DAVE is the hub by which everything revolves around. A lot of forethought went into it where it could be used as a standalone DAC, or connected to the M-Scaler, the new Digital amp, Davina or what-have-you. It's the same principle that Chord has been using for years. 

On a sort of related note, I found this oldish interview with Rob Watts where he talks about future plans of driving speakers straight from a DAC. I thought that was very interesting in light of what several people are now doing. 

Forethought. 

http://theproaudiowebblog.com/rob-watts-interview.html


----------



## Beolab

rkt31 said:


> this thread either talks about using Dave directly with single driver speakers ( few watts ) or 1000+ watts mono blocks driving big line speakers and similar. there is no problem in that as it depends on one's choice and cash to spare. but the problem with 1000+ watts mono blocks is that they don't offer higher input sensitivity to fully utilize the dave's high output, means they depend upon large gain . say an 8 ohm speakers will require about 90v output to reach 1000 watts, at 2v input sensitivity ( this is norm even with most expensive amps ) which is huge gain factor around 33db . this much gain ultimately reduces the transparency and amplifies the flaws of associated equipments, RMI and emi interference etc. imho until unless someone requires to fill a huge hall, these big speakers ( and thus 1000+ watt mono blocks amp) are not required. due to their big size they can lack in imaging specially in medium to small rooms. imho better solution is to use a pair of good quality bookshelf having around 40 to 45 Hz lower frequency response and if required a powered sub with variable cross over can be used to fill in for lower frequencies.




So with a 6 v input sensitivity amp it would be theoretically higher transparency because you need less gain vs a 2v amp make sense.


----------



## Triode User

evolvist said:


> I don't think there's going to be anything like a DAVE2 for quite some time - several years, I'm sure. Rob has even said as much.
> l




Exactly, just think about how long the Hugo 1 lasted before there was a Hugo 2. The Dave is still quite new and I also expect it to last for quite a while before being replaced. If nothing else, the company needs to recoup its investment in that model before replacing it.


----------



## Beolab

andrewold said:


> beolab said:
> 
> 
> > But who said that the M-Scaler should be transportable, i have not seen anyone say that. What everyone wants is just the M-Scaler in a separate alu box with optical , usb and coax input and for me it can draw continuously 20A if it would
> ...




According to Rob the intention is to connect the Blu2 M-Scaler to the Dual Coax input in the first place to get benefit to 1m Taps, if you follow the Hugo2 thread 

Then most probably Chord will pack the M-Scaler in a separate casing, but the Blu2 are not even released yet, so please be patient


----------



## JaZZ

beolab said:


> Then most probably Chord will pack the M-Scaler in a separate casing...


 
  
 Yeah – that of Davina. As far as we know.


----------



## EVOLVIST

triode user said:


> Exactly, just think about how long the Hugo 1 lasted before there was a Hugo 2. The Dave is still quite new and I also expect it to last for quite a while before being replaced. If nothing else, the company needs to recoup its investment in that model before replacing it.




Right. The QBD76 came out in 2012, didn't it? I think so.


----------



## ecwl

QBD76 came out in 2008. I think the QBD76HDSD upgrade came out in 2012/3


----------



## EVOLVIST

ecwl said:


> QBD76 came out in 2008. I think the QBD76HDSD upgrade came out in 2012/3




Thank you. A long time in Hifi years.


----------



## Christer

jazz said:


> I don't think a _portable_, battery-driven M-Scaler is an option, not for the near future anyway. Personally I would consider it overkill, also in that it perverts the portability aspect. Most of the time I enjoy the music more just with the burden of a small DAP in my pocket or on my arm despite the sonic compromize. After all (real) mobility represents half of the ingredients of mobile music listening. A triple stack in the kilograms range brings the system closer to a transportable than a portable system.


 

 Hmm, it would be interesting to know how many there are  here  and elsewhere that  are like me much more interested in ultimate SQ than  ultimate portability.
 For me lightweight enough to be easily transportable  is far preferable over compromised ergonomy and compromised SQ.
 As I have repatedly said, I never listen to music while actually on the go ie  neither on trains, planes nor automobiles.
 I take music far more seriously than putting it in second place.
 Before Hugo I was travelling two winters in Asia with a Benchmark DAC2 HGC as my transportable travel DAC .


----------



## Christer

theattorney said:


> Do you mind summarising Ted's and others advice about DAVE?
> 
> Regarding waiting for the next model, the obvious downside of that strategy is that there is _always_ a next model. And in the meantime, you're making do with something less than you could have. We've all been there. What happens when Chord announces in 2018 the incredible 1 tera tap "TT-Scaler" that is not quite compatible with whatever model combination you bought in 2017?
> 
> Having said that, I agree that it's still a rather confusing limbo time for existing and budding DAVE owners. We could do with a more helpful statement of intent from the Chord team. Along the lines of the USB input added to the Blue-2 that made everyone happier. Remember Chord, this is not a "problem", it's an "opportunity"!


 

 Well,it is quite a while ago. But I think you are summing it up quite well in your own post.
 I think Ted was of the opinion that staying on top was much too costly and any real  audible  benefits of doing so  were not really that big anyway.
 He also mentioned that not even cars depreciate in value as much as second hand DACs. 
 He also opined that upsampling might possibly be both  better and more cheaply done in software than in überexpensive DACs if I remember correctly.


----------



## jelt2359

christer said:


> Well,it is quite a while ago. But I think you are summing it up quite well in your own post.
> I think Ted was of the opinion that staying on top was much too costly and any real  audible  benefits of doing so  were not really that big anyway.
> He also mentioned that not even cars depreciate in value as much as second hand DACs.
> *He also opined that upsampling might possibly be both  better and more cheaply done in software than in überexpensive DACs if I remember correctly.*


 
 Rob has written about this and stated that the regular computers we have at home are really not suited to the type of upsampling that he's doing.
  
 Anyway, about upgraditis, this reminds me of the camera hobby, which I was once into. I was always waiting for the best camera to come around, but then I read a piece of advice-
  
_The best camera is the one you have in your hand._
  
 This is true of any technology, btw. Phones, cameras, computers... You can end up waiting forever. Cars are a different case, where the market is more mature, and most people 'upgrade' not to stay ahead, but just to replace an older car that has higher cost of maintenance and maybe poorer fuel economy.
  
 Once I embraced the logic in that quote, I bought a camera I liked and now a few years later I don't think any less of it than when I first got it. If you are the type who has this need to stay on top, unplugging from dangerous threads is also helpful  I haven't focused on the camera gear chase for a while, deciding instead to focus on photography. Been super easy to stay out of the upgrade game.
  
 As Rob himself has been candid about, the difference in approaches in his DACs have been getting smaller and smaller. From Hugo to Dave to Mojo to Hugo 2, the way he has used the taps has become more and more similar. This to me is a good sign.


----------



## ray-dude

jelt2359 said:


> Rob has written about this and stated that the regular computers we have at home are really not suited to the type of upsampling that he's doing.
> 
> Anyway, about upgraditis, this reminds me of the camera hobby, which I was once into. I was always waiting for the best camera to come around, but then I read a piece of advice-
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm at an age where I realize there is a VERY narrow window where I have both the disposable income and the detailed hearing to really relish and cherish what these amazing innovations are able to do.  When it comes to the joy and wonder from amazing music reproduction, carpe diem, and share the love by passing a good deal on used equipment to the next guy when you move forward.  Enjoy the journey, share the joy, and no regrets


----------



## EVOLVIST

ray-dude said:


> ...no regrets




I once told a woman, "No regrets." Boy, did I regret that. 

On another note, how many DAVE owners use tube/valve gear somewhere in your audio chain?


----------



## Triode User

evolvist said:


> I once told a woman, "No regrets." Boy, did I regret that.
> 
> On another note, how many DAVE owners use tube/valve gear somewhere in your audio chain?




My power amps are a pair of push/pull 845 monoblocs. 110w / channel.
Dave > Music First passive transformer preamp > 845 monoblocs > speakers


----------



## lovethatsound

ray-dude said:


> I'm at an age where I realize there is a VERY narrow window where I have both the disposable income and the detailed hearing to really relish and cherish what these amazing innovations are able to do.  When it comes to the joy and wonder from amazing music reproduction, carpe diem, and share the love by passing a good deal on used equipment to the next guy when you move forward.  Enjoy the journey, share the joy, and no regrets


That's all very well saying something like that,but the reality is,when your spending large amounts of money on equipment you expect it to have a certain amount of time before it gets replace by something new;especially from the same company,at least 4 or 5 year's.☺


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I don't think Chord can be criticised in this respect. Most of their products have stood that period before upgrading. Some for longer. It is quite common though in 'new' sectors for there to be faster upgrades in the early years. I see Hugo and Mojo as new sectors because Chord created a market for sota portable dacs. I don't blame Chord for making the most of their groundbreaking tech. The demand has been insatiable.


----------



## Triode User

daveredref-iii said:


> I don't think Chord can be criticised in this respect. Most of their products have stood that period before upgrading. Some for longer. It is quite common though in 'new' sectors for there to be faster upgrades in the early years. I see Hugo and Mojo as new sectors because Chord created a market for sota portable dacs. I don't blame Chord for making the most of their groundbreaking tech. The demand has been insatiable.


 

 The  Hugo was introduced 3 years ago in 2014. Just because a Hugo 2 is being released doesn't mean that all original Hugos don't work anymore. They are still fine DACs and their second hand value will probably hold up well especially in the early phase of Hugo 2 simply because there will be no second user Hugo 2 DACs on the market.
  
 Look at the Dave. Second user units are rarer than hen's teeth. I am interested in a second Dave because I think they are the best and I have two high end systems. Do I wait a couple of years with a view to get a Dave 2? Or even one year?
  
 No, if you have the money then spend it on what you want. There are no points for being the richest body in the graveyard.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

triode user said:


> The  Hugo was introduced 3 years ago in 2014. Just because a Hugo 2 is being released doesn't mean that all original Hugos don't work anymore. They are still fine DACs and their second hand value will probably hold up well especially in the early phase of Hugo 2 simply because there will be no second user Hugo 2 DACs on the market.
> 
> Look at the Dave. Second user units are rarer than hen's teeth. I am interested in a second Dave because I think they are the best and I have two high end systems. Do I wait a couple of years with a view to get a Dave 2? Or even one year?
> 
> No, if you have the money then spend it on what you want. There are no points for being the richest body in the graveyard.




I agree with that sentiment and that of ray-dude post 7653


----------



## Mojo ideas

theattorney said:


> Do you mind summarising Ted's and others advice about DAVE?
> 
> Regarding waiting for the next model, the obvious downside of that strategy is that there is _always_ a next model. And in the meantime, you're making do with something less than you could have. We've all been there. What happens when Chord announces in 2018 the incredible 1 tera tap "TT-Scaler" that is not quite compatible with whatever model combination you bought in 2017?
> 
> Having said that, I agree that it's still a rather confusing limbo time for existing and budding DAVE owners. We could do with a more helpful statement of intent from the Chord team. Along the lines of the USB input added to the Blue-2 that made everyone happier. Remember Chord, this is not a "problem", it's an "opportunity"!


A ten Ampere power requirement for a 1,000,000 taps or even 5 Ampere for half a million is out of the question for a mobile product. The price of the mega scaler reflects the both the cost of the chipset and the cost of the extensive programming that went into it.


----------



## AndrewOld

mojo ideas said:


> A ten Ampere power requirement for a 1,000,000 taps or even 5 Ampere for half a million is out of the question for a mobile product. The price of the mega scaler reflects the both the cost of the chipset and the cost of the extensive programming that went into it.


 

 What is the price of the mega-scaler? It doesn't exist! You have chosen to package it with a cd mechanism in an elaborate case, which must put it's price up substantially and has clearly reduced it's appeal, so meaning each unit has to bear a bigger proportion of the development costs, putting the price up even more. There is a huge demand from DAVE owners for a stand alone M Scaler. Such a product would benefit not only DAVE owners who play back music from their hard drives or streamers, but people who already have a perfectly decent CD mechanism - they could just slot it between their CD mech and their DAVE. Indeed it would help this latter group to cleanly transition to computer based playback if they wished, leaving them their old mechanism to sell when and if they make the move. Win Win for your customers. And Sell Sell for Chord.


----------



## jelt2359

andrewold said:


> What is the price of the mega-scaler? It doesn't exist! You have chosen to package it with a cd mechanism in an elaborate case, which must put it's price up substantially and has clearly reduced it's appeal, so meaning each unit has to bear a bigger proportion of the development costs, putting the price up even more. There is a huge demand from DAVE owners for a stand alone M Scaler. Such a product would benefit not only DAVE owners who play back music from their hard drives or streamers, but people who already have a perfectly decent CD mechanism - they could just slot it between their CD mech and their DAVE. Indeed it would help this latter group to cleanly transition to computer based playback if they wished, leaving them their old mechanism to sell when and if they make the move. Win Win for your customers. And Sell Sell for Chord.




I used to think like that. My chief concern was cost. But here's the thing- everything from Chord was saying that even if they had a cd-less m scaler, it'd go for similar price. So say they remove the cdplayer (not too pricy, since it's from the Blu, and the material cost is not really sky high even for the arm). Then they add coaxial and aes and Toslink, but they charge you the same. Or let's say they even throw a streamer into that and charge you the same. What would you get?

I decided I'd rather get the CDP + stick to my SMS-200, than the separate chord product. But then again, I don't already have another CDP. 

At the end of the day Chord has clearly decided to position this as a premium product and priced it accordingly. From another point of view that's great. Means there's unlikely to be a dave 2 out anytime soon, and also that the dave resale value is likely to stay high. 

Now that's probably bad news for a Hugo2 owner, though.


----------



## AndrewOld

jelt2359 said:


> But here's the thing- everything from Chord was saying that even if they had a cd-less m scaler, it'd go for similar price.


 
  
 Where did Chord themselves (as distinct from a visitor to a show) say that?
  


jelt2359 said:


> So say they remove the cdplayer (not too pricy, since it's from the Blu, and the material cost is not really sky high even for the arm).


 
   
 The previous CD player sold for thousands. The casework necessary for the CD player - fancy lid, hinges etc.. is not cheap. There will be associated electronics etc.. As Rob has said several times, Chord just take the bits cost and multiply them up by their multiplier. I can't believe that the CD mech and associated casework don't represent a non-trivial proportion of the cost. Surely Chord can't argue that the CD part of the Blu2 is valueless! If it is, then why don't they release a standalone CD transport and sell it for £500?
  
 Quote:


jelt2359 said:


> Then they add coaxial and aes and Toslink, but they charge you the same.


 
  
 There is already one spdif input on BNC. Adding a USB input didn't change the price of the Blu2. So, dropping the CD stuff should knock thousands off the price, adding some inputs might add hundreds. Net result should still be significantly cheaper than the Blu2.
   
 Quote:


jelt2359 said:


> Or let's say they even throw a streamer into that and charge you the same. What would you get?


 
  
 That would arguably be a good product. Probably still smartest to keep the streamer separate though. 
  


jelt2359 said:


> Now that's probably bad news for a Hugo2 owner, though.


 
  
 But why have they made Hugo2 M scaler compatible? Will an M Scaler/Blu2 plus Hugo2 sound better than a DAVE? That might be bad news for DAVE owners..
  
 But in any case I dread to think what the second hand value of a Blu2 will be .. I can't see the sales being that high because it is such an inelegant product, and a few years from now, who will want a CD transport? 
  
 So, am not convinced by your arguments, although I can see why you made them! And I will keep my money in my pocket until a stand alone M Scaler appears  at a fair price. 
  
 Out of interest, what do you think a fair price would be? £4k?  £5k? ... more ... less  ..?


----------



## Clive101

Price for the M Scaler ?
  
 The  price of Blu CD 2 player minus cost of Chord Blu CD player is approx. £1500.00
  
 Add loss of profit for not selling the CD player plus a nice box plus a bit extra as we all want one is the cost..?
  
 Chord are enthusiasts who run a business for profit and I wish them all the best, IMO a nice balance.
  
 I look forward to a Mscaler stand alone product an hope the price is reasonable.
  
 I am pretty sure the cost will reflect a balanced approach.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

£7.250


----------



## jelt2359

mojo ideas said:


> A ten Ampere power requirement for a 1,000,000 taps or even 5 Ampere for half a million is out of the question for a mobile product. The price of the mega scaler reflects the both the cost of the chipset and the cost of the extensive programming that went into it.


 
  
  


andrewold said:


> Where did Chord themselves (as distinct from a visitor to a show) say that?
> 
> 
> There is already one spdif input on BNC. Adding a USB input didn't change the price of the Blu2. So, dropping the CD stuff should knock thousands off the price, adding some inputs might add hundreds. Net result should still be significantly cheaper than the Blu2.
> ...


 
  
 The quote from John Frank is literally above yours. I suspect Chord thinks most are buying the Blu2 for the M Scaler these days, and they've priced the Blu2+ M Scaler accordingly.
  
 At the end of the day, of course you can (and should, if you feel strongly about it!) keep your money, but I think it's much more likely that Chord ends up building, for example, a Holly that includes a scaler to get the Hugo2 to 100k taps, which would probably cost around the same as the Hugo, and then keeping the Blu2 to be paired with the Dave. It's not difficult to guess. Blu2 is around the price of the Dave. Poly is around the price of the Mojo. What do you think Holly would cost, and what kind of tech would it have at that price?
  
 This looks very much like a product business strategy, with three tiers of products aimed at three different groups of consumers. But what do I know


----------



## JaZZ

jelt2359 said:


> The quote from John Frank is literally above yours. I suspect Chord thinks most are buying the Blu2 for the M Scaler these days, and they've priced the Blu2+ M Scaler accordingly.
> 
> At the end of the day, of course you can (and should, if you feel strongly about it!) keep your money, but I think it's much more likely that Chord ends up building, for example, *a Holly that includes a scaler to get the Hugo2 to 100k taps*, which would probably cost around the same as the Hugo, and then keeping the Blu2 to be paired with the Dave. It's not difficult to guess. Blu2 is around the price of the Dave. Poly is around the price of the Mojo. What do you think Holly would cost, and what kind of tech would it have at that price?
> 
> This looks very much like a product business strategy, with three tiers of products aimed at three different groups of consumers. But what do I know


 
  
 That doesn't make sense. The Hugo² already has ~50,000 taps, so doubling the tap count wouldn't justify an extra device for the price of the Hugo² inself. Also, 100,000 taps wouldn't make use of the dual-data mode, it takes the full million for that.


----------



## AndrewOld

daveredref-iii said:


> £7.250




So you think the cd transport in the Blu2 is nearly worthless?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

andrewold said:


> So you think the cd transport in the Blu2 is nearly worthless?




Frankly yes. The Phillips Pro2 unit was discontinued more almost 2 years ago. Unless it's a Teac Transport, CD mechanisms are very cheap. There is zero r&d expenditure. Add to that they will still have to design and tool a new box For the M Scaler so there's more expense and tooling.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

....add to that the M Scaler is truly sota. Why would any commercial establishment effectively give it away when an inferior solution by a competitor well known to audiophiles costs 10x the cost of the Blu2 M Scaler?

Still it proves one thing, you can't please all of the people all of the time.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I would like to know the release date for Blu2. Can Chord comment on this?


----------



## JaZZ

Let's not forget the R&D costs, particularly Rob's countless sleepless nights for programming the FPGA code! You can't just take hardware costs into account. Still I think a passably affordable M-Scaler this side of Blu 2 and Davina should be possible. I really hope John will have mercy on us.


----------



## Sonic77

> Chord Announces Poly, Blu MkII and Hugo2 Mon, 30 Jan 2017
> Chord Electronics today announced three new products expected to ship in April 2017. Please check back with this page as any updated information regarding pricing and availability will be posted here as soon as it becomes available.
> 
> Hugo 2
> ...


----------



## lovethatsound

daveredref-iii said:


> Frankly yes. The Phillips Pro2 unit was discontinued more almost 2 years ago. Unless it's a Teac Transport, CD mechanisms are very cheap. There is zero r&d expenditure. Add to that they will still have to design and tool a new box For the M Scaler so there's more expense and tooling.


come on dave now your just sounding like a chord fanboy.chord have let people down with the blu 2.Here are my reasons.1 as mentioned before on this thread,the original blu was supposed to be upgradable to the blu 2,indeed if you look at the blu 2 apart from the top plate it is the original blu,even on the back all the inputs and outputs are the same,the only reason chord are not letting original blu user's upgrade is that chord don't want to be bothered to do it.2 Even know now chord are putting a usb input on the blu 2 now,really it should have had a usb output as well.So to sum it up,the blu 2 is really the original blu with a different top plate on it and now a usb input☺


----------



## Sonic77

daveredref-iii said:


> Frankly yes. The Phillips Pro2 unit was discontinued more almost 2 years ago. Unless it's a Teac Transport, CD mechanisms are very cheap. There is zero r&d expenditure. Add to that they will still have to design and tool a new box For the M Scaler so there's more expense and tooling.


 

 ​Have you had any problems with your Chord cd player?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

sonic77 said:


> ​Have you had any problems with your Chord cd player?




No I haven't


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

"So to sum it up,the blu 2 is really the original blu with a different top plate on it and now a usb input☺"

You prove my point Lovethatsound. 

A person doesn't become a fanboy just because some people don't like what they hear. I have been in business investment for more than 20 years and the funding of businesses for 30 years. You could say that I have empathy with how hard it is for business' to turn a profit and appreciate too what a unique commercial position Chord have carved out for themselves. That won't last forever. This is a very hard business to turn a profit. Many fall by the wayside over time. The economics are punitive for most. It's a sector I would not invest in no matter how strong the company because the economics will get you in the end. They deserve their profit and from where I am sitting John Franks is as good a businessman in his sector as Rob Watts is a designer. I admire that ability and I feel it is easily overlooked by consumers.


----------



## lovethatsound

Thats right dave,that's all the blu 2 is with different broads inside,would be so 
easy to upgrade the original blu☺


----------



## miketlse

lovethatsound said:


> come on dave now your just sounding like a chord *fanboy*.chord have let people down with the blu 2.Here are my reasons.1 as mentioned before on this thread,the original blu was supposed to be upgradable to the blu 2,indeed if you look at the blu 2 apart from the top plate it is the original blu,even on the back all the inputs and outputs are the same,the only reason chord are not letting original blu user's upgrade is that chord don't want to be bothered to do it.2 Even know now chord are putting a usb input on the blu 2 now,really it should have had a usb output as well.So to sum it up,the blu 2 is really the original blu with a different top plate on it and now a usb input☺


 
  
 There is no need to insult other posters, just because they have a different viewpoint to your own.


----------



## lovethatsound

miketlse said:


> There is no need to insult other posters, just because they have a different viewpoint to your own.


I've not insulted anyone,maybe your trying to insult me because you don't like my viewpoint☺


----------



## EVOLVIST

miketlse said:


> There is no need to insult other posters, just because they have a different viewpoint to your own.




Is it really insulting to be called a "fanboy?" I'm insulted by this notion. Jk. 

I mean, over on the Super Audio Friends forum I was extolling the virtues of the Chord DAVE and many disagreed. So under my name on the forum it now reads "Rob Watt's Fluffer." HA! Some mod did that. 

I admit that at first I was taken aback, but then I was like, screw it, these guys are mostly ass holes, anyway. Heh.


----------



## miketlse

evolvist said:


> Is it really insulting to be called a "fanboy?" I'm insulted by this notion. Jk.
> 
> I mean, over on the Super Audio Friends forum I was extolling the virtues of the Chord DAVE and many disagreed. So under my name on the forum it now reads "Rob Watt's Fluffer." HA! Some mod did that.
> 
> I admit that at first I was taken aback, but then I was like, screw it, these guys are mostly ass holes, anyway. Heh.


 
  
 The definition of fanboy is:
  
1. A person who is completely loyal to a game or company reguardless of if they suck or not. 
2. A pathetic insult often used by fanboys themselves to try and put down people who don't like whatever it is they like. 
  
 I have merely tried to stop the thread being a place to trade insults, but it seems some of you find my action insulting.
 Your logic is very confusing to me, but enjoy your evenings.


----------



## EVOLVIST

miketlse said:


> The definition of fanboy is:
> 
> 1. A person who is completely loyal to a game or company reguardless of if they suck or not.
> 2. A pathetic insult often used by fanboys themselves to try and put down people who don't like whatever it is they like.
> ...


 

 I was just kidding. I like France.


----------



## Sonic77

Super Audio Friends=Loserville
 ​Some people here seem lost, isn't this section called summit-fi, not crybaby-fi. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 Quote:


evolvist said:


> Is it really insulting to be called a "fanboy?" I'm insulted by this notion. Jk.
> 
> I mean, over on the Super Audio Friends forum I was extolling the virtues of the Chord DAVE and many disagreed. So under my name on the forum it now reads "Rob Watt's Fluffer." HA! Some mod did that.
> 
> I admit that at first I was taken aback, but then I was like, screw it, these guys are mostly ass holes, anyway. Heh.


----------



## EVOLVIST

On a more serious topic, I asked how many DAVE owners use tube gear after the DAVE to their speakers. I'm curious because, at least on the surface, it would seem that one is adding distortions to the end signal via tubes? The DAVE is highly valued for many reasons, and now we have tight quarters on the stopping and starting of notes, greater timbre accuracy, etc., but now by adding tubes, even and odd order harmonics, it's not quite the same effect, is it? Your THD has certainly increased. 

I mean, you guys tell me.

EDIT: I would never suggest that personal taste is a bad thing. I'm merely asking because I'm just getting into speakers, but also playing on the concept that some float around that, "I am a purist; therefore, tubes are no good." Juxtapose that with what somebody recently wrote, and the picture becomes blurry:

"The main problem is that during the recording process itself, even order harmonics are stripped out. Unless the recording was done using tube equipment. Which is why even ‘great’ recordings are more edgy and less emotionally engaging than attending the performance in real life. So, if even order harmonics are stripped out, how do we fix that? Easy, use tube equipment. And the closer you can use tube equipment to your source, the more impact it has."


----------



## AndrewOld

jelt2359 said:


> The quote from John Frank is literally above yours. I suspect Chord thinks most are buying the Blu2 for the M Scaler these days, and they've priced the Blu2+ M Scaler accordingly.
> 
> At the end of the day, of course you can (and should, if you feel strongly about it!) keep your money, but I think it's much more likely that Chord ends up building, for example, a Holly that includes a scaler to get the Hugo2 to 100k taps, which would probably cost around the same as the Hugo, and then keeping the Blu2 to be paired with the Dave. It's not difficult to guess. Blu2 is around the price of the Dave. Poly is around the price of the Mojo. What do you think Holly would cost, and what kind of tech would it have at that price?
> 
> This looks very much like a product business strategy, with three tiers of products aimed at three different groups of consumers. But what do I know


 
 If it is a strategy, rather than an ill thought-through accident, then it is a poor strategy. My money is on an ill-thought through accident - remember the original Blu2 had no USB input so was not aimed at people who playback from computers at all. Even putting the M Scaler into the Blu2 in the first place might have been a bit impulsive. Rob had developed it in the context of the Davina. The Blu was long due an upgrade, but how could you upgrade a perfectly decent cd mechanism? Ah, thought John Franks, if I pinched the M Scaler from the Davina and stuck it in a cd transport then I would indeed have an upgrade with a twist.  And thus a product was born. At least doing that offered the possibility of recouping some of the development costs of  the Davina - after all Chord have never sold a AtoD so the demand for the Davina must be difficult to gauge. My guess is pretty small. Franks seems to have some irrational quasi-romantic attachment to cds, maybe he just isn't up to speed with computer based playback. But the issue here is the unexpected benefit from the M Scaler. I do think they should have paused for thought, rather than bodged it all together with a cd transport and a USB input. If you read earlier comments it is not only computer playback based DAVE owners that are less than happy with the Blu2, Blu owners are also discontent because their (expensive) transports aren't upgradeable as promised and will not get much on the second hand market. Disappointing customers is not a smart product business strategy imo. 
  
 As to the Holly, if it ever exists, not a clue. By analogy with the Blu2 of course, it should have a cd transport built in, or something else people don't use! But the Hugo2 has M Scaler ready inputs so, they must be for something.


----------



## jelt2359

On another note, I really emphasise with those who were misinformed by their dealers about the upgradability of the Blu. That's the kind of thing that would send me away from a brand forever, just because of the greed of the dealer in doing anything to close a deal. Perhaps it's best for those to talk directly to John and see if he can do them a solid?


----------



## Kamil21

clive101 said:


> Price for the M Scaler ?
> 
> The  price of Blu CD 2 player minus cost of Chord Blu CD player is approx. £1500.00
> 
> ...




Hear, hear. Running a business for profit and managing customer expectations is no easy matter.

If they had not launched Blu2 integrated with M-Scaler and made us wait another year for the standalone scaler, some of us would be much happier.

As they say, ignorance is bliss.


----------



## drbobbybones

evolvist said:


> On a more serious topic, I asked how many DAVE owners use tube gear after the DAVE to their speakers. I'm curious because, at least on the surface, it would seem that one is adding distortions to the end signal via tubes? The DAVE is highly valued for many reasons, and now we have tight quarters on the stopping and starting of notes, greater timbre accuracy, etc., but now by adding tubes, even and odd order harmonics, it's not quite the same effect, is it? Your THD has certainly increased.
> 
> I mean, you guys tell me.
> 
> ...


 

 I use a WA22 after my DAVE to my headphones.  I think it makes every headphone I have sound better than the DAVE alone, but I think the WA22 is a special beast.  Haven't used it with speakers though.


----------



## Triode User

evolvist said:


> On a more serious topic, I asked how many DAVE owners use tube gear after the DAVE to their speakers. I'm curious because, at least on the surface, it would seem that one is adding distortions to the end signal via tubes? The DAVE is highly valued for many reasons, and now we have tight quarters on the stopping and starting of notes, greater timbre accuracy, etc., but now by adding tubes, even and odd order harmonics, it's not quite the same effect, is it? Your THD has certainly increased.


 
 I previously replied to your request about using tube amplifiers. I have heard many solid state amplifiers (many very high end) but none of comes close to my valve amps for giving a sense of space and clarity to the music. All the ones I have heard somehow seem to muddy the music ever so very slightly. I was demonstrating my system to a friend last night, playing music he was familiar with and he was just amazed at being able to hear individual instruments on complex orchestral music that he had never heard before on those recordings.
  
 Not all of us have tubes for the so called 'warmth' or 'the tube sound'. Some of us have them because we think they are the best and most accurate reproducers of music.


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## DaveRedRef-III

I like the use of tubes for helping create a great vocal performance. It fortifies the vocal which gives the vocalist greater confidence on a take. The distortions are pleasant too. They are great for recording lead guitar too as they produce more weight along with pleasing distortion but to my mind that is art. Tubes are very fast which is desirable for hifi and they are musical too. The latter attribute though partly as a result of something only tubes do but is equally it's weakness. Tubes vibrate and no trickery yet invented can suppress it to a point where it is not meaningfully laying its own trace on the original recording. If we were talking of a fine art sketch what tubes do is overlay a thick crayon outline round the subject. The is the result of shimmering tubes. All tubes shimmer, less so when fully boxed but they still shimmer and it affects the sound. In the past that was a desirable trait because it made music smooth when it was far from smooth. Now though this trait is a negative because it hides detail when compared to the best solid state can offer. I no longer use tubes for this reason, though I will admit that tube sound can be both pleasing and addictive. For that reason it comes down to personal taste I think.


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## PANURUS

jelt2359 said:


> The quote from John Frank is literally above yours. I suspect Chord thinks most are buying the Blu2 for the M Scaler these days, and they've priced the Blu2+ M Scaler accordingly.
> 
> At the end of the day, of course you can (and should, if you feel strongly about it!) keep your money, but I think it's much more likely that Chord ends up building, for example, a Holly that includes a scaler to get the Hugo2 to 100k taps, which would probably cost around the same as the Hugo, and then keeping the Blu2 to be paired with the Dave. It's not difficult to guess. Blu2 is around the price of the Dave. Poly is around the price of the Mojo. What do you think Holly would cost, and what kind of tech would it have at that price?
> 
> This looks very much like a product business strategy, with three tiers of products aimed at three different groups of consumers. But what do I know


 
  
 Chord seems to me to have a much more open mind than: "three different groups of consumers".
  
 1. It could be that if Chord was so quick to add the USB in the Blu2, it is because this solution allows to offer more time necessary for the development of the Davina.
 And that in the meantime will come out a M-scaler in Chordette format ( if big enough) for use with 2Qute mk2.

 2. The fact that the Hugo2 was made M-scaler compatible.
  
 3. Currently I can not predict whether the Poly used with the Dave will do worse than the streamer developed for the 2Qute Mk2, the DX1000 and CODE X.
  
 4.In addition the design also must met a fourth customer group, that of the HugoTT 
  
 Thus the needs of wealthy monks are met with Poly,  Chordette Scaler with usb and Dave.
 This first step will already be extraordinary.


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## ismewor

triode user said:


> I previously replied to your request about using tube amplifiers. I have heard many solid state amplifiers (many very high end) but none of comes close to my valve amps for giving a sense of space and clarity to the music. All the ones I have heard somehow seem to muddy the music ever so very slightly. I was demonstrating my system to a friend last night, playing music he was familiar with and he was just amazed at being able to hear individual instruments on complex orchestral music that he had never heard before on those recordings.
> 
> Not all of us have tubes for the so called 'warmth' or 'the tube sound'. Some of us have them because we think they are the best and most accurate reproducers of music.




I use tube too. Just not all tube are equal. So if is a well build and correct tube it will sound amaze and should bring more enjoyment on the table.


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## Deftone

jazz said:


> Let's not forget the R&D costs, particularly Rob's countless sleepless nights for programming the FPGA code! You can't just take hardware costs into account. Still I think a passably affordable M-Scaler this side of Blu 2 and Davina should be possible. I really hope John will have mercy on us.


 
  
 i agree and i also believe a high percentage of the cost of Blu2 comes from robs uniques hard work from programming and code, just like with headphones and iems the materials cost alone wouldn't justify the higher prices but its the tuning of the drivers is what we really pay for.


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## Deftone

evolvist said:


> Is it really insulting to be called a "fanboy?" I'm insulted by this notion. Jk.
> 
> *I mean, over on the Super Audio Friends forum I was extolling the virtues of the Chord DAVE and many disagreed. So under my name on the forum it now reads "Rob Watt's Fluffer." HA! Some mod did that.*
> 
> I admit that at first I was taken aback, but then I was like, screw it, these guys are mostly ass holes, anyway. Heh.


 

 ​Does not surprise me, SBAF is a Schiit shrine and 90% of other brands get trashed.


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## EVOLVIST

triode user said:


> I previously replied to your request about using tube amplifiers. I have heard many solid state amplifiers (many very high end) but none of comes close to my valve amps for giving a sense of space and clarity to the music. All the ones I have heard somehow seem to muddy the music ever so very slightly. I was demonstrating my system to a friend last night, playing music he was familiar with and he was just amazed at being able to hear individual instruments on complex orchestral music that he had never heard before on those recordings.
> 
> Not all of us have tubes for the so called 'warmth' or 'the tube sound'. Some of us have them because we think they are the best and most accurate reproducers of music.




I don't doubt you at all; I'm simply wondering if the added distortion to DAVE defeats the purpose, even just a little bit. In the end it don't matter because you like what your ears hear. It's the synergy with the listener that tells you. 

So, I lent my DAVE to a friend for a few days. This guy has been into hifi for decades, one of the main guys who did the guidence system on the Polaris missile back in the 80s and 90s. 

Anyway, tubes galore... These massive monoblocks, nice speakers, and a cozy listening room. The DAVE is playing through all of these tubes, and yes the depth is very noticeable, yet there's this overt roundness to the sound. Linda Ronstadt doesn't sound quite real. 

We then switch over to his DAC, some Lynx thingy, and not even tubes could save the day. It literally gave me an ill feeling inside, as it was strident and abrasive. 

Man, setups are a funny thing. He loved the DAVE but claimed the difference in SQ wasn't worth the money. It was night and day folks.

I don't know how it could be more plain.


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## rkt31

exactly . people use 1000+ watts ss monoblocks and 100+ watts tube amps which does not do justice to the transparency of Dave. imho with Dave if possible don't use any amp ( use it with top headphones or directly feed to single driver high efficiency speakers ) or use an amp with high input sensitivity and low gain to fully utilize the high output of Dave.


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## TheAttorney

Regarding Dave's direct headphone connection versus TOTL external headphone amps:
  
 I was initially sceptical of claims that DAVE's direct output, by definition,  simply _must_ be more transparent than even the best add-on headphone amps. And my scepticism remained high when, awhile back, my BHSE/009 absolutely slaughtered a directly connected HD800S (stock, on loan), or my HD600.
  
 More recently, I've been warming towards the direct connection, since using my new HEK V2's for a few weeks. Even here, the HEK's started life somewhat lower than my 009's. But a number of steps since then seem to back up the theory that DAVE's direct output is extremely transparent - which means it will not mask any defect anywhere else in the system. The plus side of this  is that it will immediately reward you as you address each of those defects.
  
 Firstly, I had to tweak the HEK's a bit. Two seemingly small tweaks had a combined dramatic effect: Using Roon 1.3's new EQ feature, I added a single modest dip in the 7-10khz region. Then I made use of Dave's cross-feed (more of that later). Doesn't seem like much, but the HEK's scaled incredibly well to being a real contender. This basically sorted a slight "sheen" in the lower treble, plus a slight hole-in-the-middle result of a large soundstage.
  
 Alongside sprucing up the HEK V2, I was also improving my source with a variety of tweaks. Whilst my BHSE/009's benefitted from each improvement, the HEK's benefitted greater - to the point of being a real contender for Top Dog in the headphone world.
  
 The thing is, with all these improvements, Dave wasn't changed at all. The point of all this is that if you hear Dave in any particular setting and you don't like what you hear, then look to blame something else in your system before blaming Dave. Because I could make the end result as bright/dark/flat/holographic/etc as I wanted simply by changing something else in my system. Any good DAC should be able to do this to some extent, but Dave seems to do it more readily than others I've tried.


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## EVOLVIST

rkt31 said:


> exactly . people use 1000+ watts ss monoblocks and 100+ watts tube amps which does not do justice to the transparency of Dave. imho with Dave if possible don't use any amp ( use it with top headphones or directly feed to single driver high efficiency speakers ) or use an amp with high input sensitivity and low gain to fully utilize the high output of Dave.


 
  
 Or, in theory, use the new digital amp that Chord is creating.
  
 Yes, I am going to trying this high efficiency speaker system driven by DAVE, alone. My speakers on order from Omega.
  
 HOWEVER (and this is no devil's advocate), most of the people who post in this DAVE thread, I read their posts, they describe their gear, they are seeking the same thing that we're all after, and 99% of us our thrilled with DAVE. I have no reason to doubt anybody's tastes, nor their setups. Indeed, it's the opposite. I feel that most of us in here are happy with our setups with the DAVE in charge, and are looking to see how much further Chord can advance our listening experiences.
  
 BUT! I posted in here before, and I'll say it again, the absolute best speaker system I've heard in my life (and I've heard three high-end systems after this) was Mytek Brooklyn DAC - > D-Sonic amp - > Eggleston Andra II speakers. Period. Even after dropping my DAVE into the above mentioned system the other night. Tomorrow morning I will replace the Mytek with the DAVE in my buddy's system and see what the difference is.
  
 I won't lie; the thought has crossed my mind that I could sell my DAVE and with the proceeds replicate his entire system, almost down to the room, because I have a parlor that's just about as long, only his speakers are firing down a long room into an empty hallway, while mine would be firing about 20ft from the speakers into wall with a fireplace.
  
 Now, chances are I won't be selling my DAVE. It's too, too good. Moreover, trying to replicate another person's speaker system might be a fool's errand. Also, with the Omega CAMs, I might find myself just as much in heaven, or more so; I don't know.
  
 The point is, the waters are murky out there, but the sound is clear. There was a post where I even read Rob Watts extoll the virtues of hearing the DAVE in a tube-driven speaker setup. Of course this is the same Rob Watts who listens through the hideous Nighthawk headphones, but it's the same Mr. Watts who gave us the miracle of DAVE, and on and on... So, who knows what sounds good unless you've experienced it for yourself.
  
 I wish you guys could hear this Mytek/D-Sonic/Eggleston setup. I've never heard something sound more real...ever!


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## jlbrach

evolvist said:


> Or, in theory, use the new digital amp that Chord is creating.
> 
> Yes, I am going to trying this high efficiency speaker system driven by DAVE, alone. My speakers on order from Omega.
> 
> ...


 
 I think we can drive ourselves insane chasing that last 2% for sure


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## rkt31

@EVOLVIST, thanks for the reply and sharing your experience about the set up you liked. I currently don't have Dave but I tried driving 4 inch single driver 8ohm diy speakers directly through hugo and mojo. I would say that I heard the most realistic vocals ever through this set up. of course the full scale was not there due to small drivers. Dave being more powerful can drive even bigger drivers easily. regarding future chord digital amp , I have few questions to rob . will the amp have analog inputs ? will it have both power and pre functionality ie will it take dave's full scale digital output or volume controlled digital output ? if it allows analog inputs , what will be the limitations for input sensitivity ?


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## Triode User

rkt31 said:


> ..... I have few questions to rob . .......will it have both power and pre functionality ie will it take dave's full scale digital output or volume controlled digital output ? ........


 
  
 Why have a DAC (ie Dave) and then use a digital output from it rather than the analogue output?


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## DaveRedRef-III

Evolvist
The room in which you heard your friends great setup, did it have much acoustic treatment?


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## rkt31

@Triode User, as far as I know the upcoming chord digital amp will directly take 'processed' digital output from dave or m scaler . there is no point of using Dave's analog output and then converting it again to digital in the amp and then amplify that digital data and again convert it back to analog. there may be analog input too in the amp so that it can be used with other sources .


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## Triode User

I bow to your superior knowledge. I know nothing about digital amps but in my simple way I assume that a digital signal needs converting to analogue at some point and surely it is a DAC function to do that. If the Dave is relegated to merely processing the digital signal rather than full DAC function then one is paying for a bit of kit in the DAVE that is redundant and the digital amp presumably carries out the DAC function after it has been amplified. And what digital processing can the Dave do before outputting to a digital amp?
  
 I am only asking these things because I don't know, not to challenge anything.


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## x RELIC x

I think Rob is the only one who knows anything about digital amps...


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## rkt31

if I remember correctly Dave has a digital out which is specifically for feeding for future chord digital amps. Dave after all processing of oversampling and filtering generates a high speed digital data stream which when fed to chord digital amp is amplified digitally converted to low impedance analog output.


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## miketlse

triode user said:


> I bow to your superior knowledge. I know nothing about digital amps but in my simple way I assume that a digital signal needs converting to analogue at some point and surely it is a DAC function to do that. If the Dave is relegated to merely processing the digital signal rather than full DAC function then one is paying for a bit of kit in the DAVE that is redundant and the digital amp presumably carries out the DAC function after it has been amplified. And what digital processing can the Dave do before outputting to a digital amp?
> 
> I am only asking these things because I don't know, not to challenge anything.


 
  
 The internal workings of Chord DACs (in terms of functional activity blocks) have been well explained by Rob Watts in several posts in the Mojo, DAVE, and possibly the Blu2 threads.
 These posts will be interesting reading for you - sadly I do not have the links to hand.
  
 However in *very simple* terms, the black box that everyone buys as a DAC:

starts by taking the input signal (usb, optical, coax etc) and ensures that the jitter and other 'noise' is removed
upscales the input signal using several stages (to achieve the 164,000 taps in the DAVE)
performs the conversion of the upscaled digital signal to analogue
outputs the analogue signal to the headphone or amplifier ports
  
 DAVE normally performs all this single handedly.
 The picture changes slightly now that the M Scalar is available. In the Blu2, the M Scalar takes the standard RBCD signal, and upscales it to a far greater amount (500,000 taps). This signal can then be fed to the DAVE (and soon the Hugo 2), where it is used to bypass the initial DAVE upscaling stages, and the DAVE just performs the last stage of upscaling (to achieve 1,000,000 taps), followed by the conversion to analogue as before. This means that the initial upscaling stages in DAVE are redundant if you also have a Blu2 or MScaler, but at present only Rob Watts or Chord possess any of those.
  
 Overall this does mean that future DACs could be split into two discrete modules - the plug-in upscalar, plus the final DAC unit.
 In principle you could keep the final DAC unit for many years, but periodically upgrade the upscalar unit.


----------



## Triode User

miketlse said:


> The internal workings of Chord DACs (in terms of functional activity blocks) have been well explained by Rob Watts in several posts in the Mojo, DAVE, and possibly the Blu2 threads.
> These posts will be interesting reading for you - sadly I do not have the links to hand.
> 
> However in *very simple* terms, the black box that everyone buys as a DAC:
> ...


 

 Thanks for taking the time to reply with that info. I still don't understand where a digital amp fits in that scheme of things. I guess I ought to stop being lazy and just go and look!!


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## miketlse

triode user said:


> Thanks for taking the time to reply with that info. I still don't understand where a digital amp fits in that scheme of things. I guess I ought to stop being lazy and just go and look!!


 
  
 It probably means that you could feed the upscaled digital output from Blu2/M Scalar or DAVE to the Digital amp, which can then amplify the signal (in the digital realm). 
 The digital amps from Devialet, also have the functionality to perform some Digital Signal Processing, in order to remove speaker resonances etc. I don't know if Chord plan to include this type of functionality into their amp.
  
 Anyway, once the digital amp has performed its amplification function, you still need a DAC stage, to convert the digital signal to analogue, for analogue speakers.
  
 If instead users are interested more in active speakers, then you would locate the digital amp/DSP/DAC actually inside the speaker cabinet. 
 However Chord never mention active speakers, so don't hold your breath.


----------



## mtoc

Not much people have seen this level of going-naked


----------



## miketlse

mtoc said:


> Not much people have seen this level of going-naked


 
 The 4 fasteners at the corners of the lid, do not align with any fastener holes in the base. Are they used to attach the display board or something similar?


----------



## EVOLVIST

daveredref-iii said:


> Evolvist
> The room in which you heard your friends great setup, did it have much acoustic treatment?




Zero. None. Plaster walls and a plaster ceiling. Indeed, I've just arrived here and we're going to crudely A/B the Mytek vs. DAVE. What kills me isn't the DAC, though; it's how he's getting away with a D-Sonic amp that sounds as transparent as any high-end SS amp I've ever heard.

EDIT: From my understanding, though, there's no way that the switching mechanism in a class D is going to keep up with the DAVE. Therefore, what might be a pleasing sound, nevertheless, kills the some of DAVE's benefit? I think perhaps so, with my limited knowledge of how thingys operate.


----------



## ecwl

mtoc said:


> Not much people have seen this level of going-naked



When I upgraded from QBD76 to QBD76HDSD, my local dealer opened the unit up and did the upgrade in front of me so I did have the pleasure of seeing it up close. It was fascinating. Especially since my dealer has opened up other DACs for inspection/repair/upgrade. Doubt I'd do that with our DAVEs for quite some time.


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## analogmusic

Hello all,
  
 what interconnects are you using with your Dave's and what is their cost?


----------



## raypin

Mm..for optical, I borrowed my Aurender Flow's optical cable (so it is free) . For USB, Audioquest Diamond (retail 550 usd) . For balanced, I use Atlas Asimi Silver XLR 1.0 m (retail Gbp 3,200.00).


----------



## highfell

miketlse said:


> The internal workings of Chord DACs (in terms of functional activity blocks) have been well explained by Rob Watts in several posts in the Mojo, DAVE, and possibly the Blu2 threads.
> These posts will be interesting reading for you - sadly I do not have the links to hand.
> 
> However in *very simple* terms, the black box that everyone buys as a DAC:
> ...





At the Bristol show yesterday, a Chord employee said that the M Scaler in the Blu2 upscales using 1M taps (not 500K) and then passes that digital signal to Dave and Dave's 164K taps


----------



## Triode User

RCA and XLR audio outputs I make up my own solid silver. By that I mean I literally make them with silversmith wire, not just terminating shop bought cut lengths of cable.
  
 USB in I can't remember, nothing special, certainly not over 30 UKP. 
  
 .


----------



## Mojo ideas

andrewold said:


> What is the price of the mega-scaler? It doesn't exist! You have chosen to package it with a cd mechanism in an elaborate case, which must put it's price up substantially and has clearly reduced it's appeal, so meaning each unit has to bear a bigger proportion of the development costs, putting the price up even more. There is a huge demand from DAVE owners for a stand alone M Scaler. Such a product would benefit not only DAVE owners who play back music from their hard drives or streamers, but people who already have a perfectly decent CD mechanism - they could just slot it between their CD mech and their DAVE. Indeed it would help this latter group to cleanly transition to computer based playback if they wished, leaving them their old mechanism to sell when and if they make the move. Win Win for your customers. And Sell Sell for Chord.


 please try to understand our pricing policy is always fair. When We at Chord and Rob decide to make a product that has never existed before and often involves years of design and programming. We are often unsure if a design will be a sortafter success or not. This is purely because we have nothing to measure it against as the new design has no piers or competitors. So to take something like the mega scaler and to try to recover the costs by gearing up to produce very large numbers at a marginal cost would just be foolish as there would be too much risk. It's far more advisable to recover the developement cost over a limited but higher valuable number of premium products and then perhaps at a later time carry out a marketing exercise to see if a cost reduced design is possible and is worth doing.


----------



## EVOLVIST

evolvist said:


> Zero. None. Plaster walls and a plaster ceiling. Indeed, I've just arrived here and we're going to crudely A/B the Mytek vs. DAVE. What kills me isn't the DAC, though; it's how he's getting away with a D-Sonic amp that sounds as transparent as any high-end SS amp I've ever heard.
> 
> EDIT: From my understanding, though, there's no way that the switching mechanism in a class D is going to keep up with the DAVE. Therefore, what might be a pleasing sound, nevertheless, kills the some of DAVE's benefit? I think perhaps so, with my limited knowledge of how thingys operate.




Okay, so after this deep dive listening session, yes, the Eggleston speakers are, indeed, special. The D-Sonic amp mated much better with the Mytek, to where I would say it was a very musical combination. However, enter DAVE. 

We all agreed that the ability to sperate more complex passages was the DAVE's forte, as well as giving more of a sense of depth. The Mytek Brooklyn had this "analog sheen," but in the end its realism was largely based upon just a few instruments playing at one time. Any polyphony was muddied and smeared. It sounded good, but not near as clear as DAVE. And yes, I got the feeling that the D-Sonic amp was holding it back, or perhaps "keeping up" is the right phrase. 

In short, if I had never heard the DAVE this would be the most beautiful rig I had ever heard. Putting the DAVE in the chain amplified the rig's shortcomings (and this is not the first time I've heard DAVE do this). 

If we had had an amp worthy of DAVE's powers I have a feeling it would have been a near orgasmic experience. 

Now I continue to wait for my Omega CAMs.


----------



## maxh22

evolvist said:


> Okay, so after this deep dive listening session, yes, the Eggleston speakers are, indeed, special. The D-Sonic amp mated much better with the Mytek, to where I would say it was a very musical combination. However, enter DAVE.
> 
> We all agreed that the ability to sperate more complex passages was the DAVE's forte, as well as giving more of a sense of depth. The Mytek Brooklyn had this "analog sheen," but in the end its realism was largely based upon just a few instruments playing at one time. Any polyphony was muddied and smeared. It sounded good, but not near as clear as DAVE. And yes, I got the feeling that the D-Sonic amp was holding it back, or perhaps "keeping up" is the right phrase.
> 
> ...




So given what you heard would you prefer the Dave or Mytek in that system?


----------



## EVOLVIST

maxh22 said:


> So given what you heard would you prefer the Dave or Mytek in that system?




The DAVE. By far the DAVE. Even being held back/colored by what I perceive to be the amp, the DAVE was still able to provide more depth and instrument seperation. The DAVE simply provides all of those missing percentages of sound that once heard, no matter how fun the other DAC is, like the Mytek, you can't unhear the DAVE, and neither would you want to. 

Like I said, the Mytek when fed just a few instruments and voice sounds just about as good as anything, which to me means that it fights above it's class. Yet, as soon as you add a little more to the mix (and it doesn't take much) the Mytek, compared to the DAVE, begins to smear, and the DAVE doesn't.


----------



## adyc

evolvist said:


> The DAVE. By far the DAVE. Even being held back/colored by what I perceive to be the amp, the DAVE was still able to provide more depth and instrument seperation. The DAVE simply provides all of those missing percentages of sound that once heard, no matter how fun the other DAC is, like the Mytek, you can't unhear the DAVE, and neither would you want to.
> 
> Like I said, the Mytek when fed just a few instruments and voice sounds just about as good as anything, which to me means that it fights above it's class. Yet, as soon as you add a little more to the mix (and it doesn't take much) the Mytek, compared to the DAVE, begins to smear, and the DAVE doesn't.




This is usually the case. Complex music is what separates men from boys.

Like video, 480 and 4K are not much different for simple picture. Once one go to complex details pictures, 4K is much superior.


----------



## Christer

adyc said:


> This is usually the case. Complex music is what separates men from boys.
> 
> Like video, 480 and 4K are not much different for simple picture. Once one go to complex details pictures, 4K is much superior.


 

 And still, most reviewers use simple electronica or pop rock  material when reviewing  anything from DACs to highend speakers and amps.
 A sad state of affairs imho.
 Crap in= crap out.


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## lovethatsound

christer said:


> And still, most reviewers use simple electronica or pop rock  material when reviewing  anything from DACs to highend speakers and amps.
> A sad state of affairs imho.
> Crap in= crap out.


What's crap to you,might not be crap to someone else . I'm lucky i like lots of different types of music.christer I'm sure you love the type of music you listen to,BUT remember people love their type of music,just as much as you love yours☺


----------



## rkt31

a real test for any dac is a complex orchestral piece which may or may not be for everyone's taste. however there is some good orchestral work related to popular music by " Cincinnati Pops Orchestra " .  telarc has released some good work of theirs.


----------



## Brushane

Let any DAC try to reproduce a metronome click with big bandwidth and it is not so terribly hard to hear differences in how they handle such a pulse. To think that big orchestras would be harder to reproduce than a metronome click is… a very simplified view of things actual complexity.


----------



## rkt31

a doorbell or telephone even on TV sounds so much real that sometimes you may think that your own doorbell or telephone has rung. this is because a single frequency or less number of frequencies ( read it less complex music ) are easier to reproduce by a sound system. imho crash of cymbals is also a very difficult to reproduce instrument because of its extreme dynamics.


----------



## dmance

Given all the talk about driving high efficiency (95dB+) speakers directly from DAVE's line outputs...I found these from Uxcell in China. I will couple them with ordinary BNC to RCA adapters for my tests. 


https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Banana-Coaxial-Binding-Adapter/dp/B00TGODT18


----------



## dguitarnut

Hook up this Tekton 1812 speaker to your Dave

H 71" x W 23" x D 26" 300lbs 
Sensitivity 104dB 1W @ 1m
140dB maximum output each
4 Ohm Impedance
Frequency response 20Hz - 30kHz
Power handling - 2500 Watts


----------



## rkt31

4 ohm is not advisable for directly driving from Dave. Dave may go into short circuit protection mode as minimum impedance recommend is 8 ohm.


----------



## rgs9200m

I am wondering why many are trying to power speakers directly. There are tons of nice used amps on audiogon for very low prices.
 (Such as Pass, Boulder, Emotiva, Levinson, Linn, Mcintosh, Classe, Conrad-Johnson, Krell, Plinius, Luxman, Parasound, Bel Canto, Bryston, Audio Research and on and on.)


----------



## bigfatpaulie

rgs9200m said:


> I am wondering why many are trying to power speakers directly. There are tons of nice used amps on audiogon for very low prices.
> (Such as Pass, Boulder, Emotiva, Levinson, Linn, Mcintosh, Classe, Conrad-Johnson, Krell, Plinius, Luxman, Parasound, Bel Canto, Bryston, Audio Research and on and on.)


 
  
 The simple answer is to preserve as much resolution and keep the system as transparent as possible.  Something else in the chain will only reduce those things, never increase them.


----------



## JaZZ

bigfatpaulie said:


> rgs9200m said:
> 
> 
> > I am wondering why many are trying to power speakers directly. There are tons of nice used amps on audiogon for very low prices.
> ...


 
  
 That's the new Head-Fi spirit – at least I hope so. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Amps are overrated.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I think the best way to test any Dac is to listen to a familiar recording of instruments you know intimately from a live environment. If those familiar instruments are orchestral then great. For me it's stringed instruments like acoustic guitar and piano but I find that instruments with high frequency closely twinned strings like twelve string acoustic or mandolin are very hard to reproduce correctly. Dave is the only Dac I have heard which can pull this off ......but as I say, you need to be intimately familiar with the analogue sound to really know what's right.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

....to continue, it's not surprising this is a tough test for a Dac because the sound of each instrument is both transient and very fast in their release (because the strings are so close together.) The slower, blurred, transient responses of competitor Dacs are laid bare by these instruments imo. I use the 12 string solo part of Chicago's 'If you leave me now' and the mandolin from McGuiness Flint 'When I'm dead and gone' for this test.


----------



## miketlse

daveredref-iii said:


> I think the best way to test any Dac is to listen to a familiar recording of instruments you know intimately from a live environment. If those familiar instruments are orchestral then great. For me it's stringed instruments like acoustic guitar and piano but I find that instruments with high frequency closely twinned strings like twelve string acoustic or mandolin are very hard to reproduce correctly. Dave is the only Dac I have heard which can pull this off ......but as I say, you need to be intimately familiar with the analogue sound to really know what's right.


 
  
 I only have a Mojo, but have recently started exploring recordings of English medieval music, useing lutes and I have posted that I think that DAVE and M-Scalar will have fun with similar recordings, especially with church acoustics.


----------



## EVOLVIST

christer said:


> And still, most reviewers use simple electronica or pop rock  material when reviewing  anything from DACs to highend speakers and amps.
> A sad state of affairs imho.
> Crap in= crap out.




Right, but from what I gather you are a classical only person, which is fine, but that's a limitation, too, when it comes to hearing what the DAVE can do. 

I'm not so sure about "crap in = crap out," either. There are several recordings that I could name to where I thought that I was going to get crap out, but the DAVE was able to peal away layers in the music that were there, but without a quality mechanism for reproduction like the DAVE I never knew the layers had a chance of standing out. 

I've heard it said that the DAVE will not produce miracles with your music, yet I've heard it at least to perform minor miracles, which are still miracles by definition. On the flip side, one could say that if you put in crap, but it only comes out a little less crappy, then it's still crap, if you go by my previous logic... And that would be true, too. On the other hand, being "less crappy" might have just taken the recording from unlistenable to quite listenable by a few key percentages, in a game of percentages. 

Of course with the best recordings out there, and if you only feed the DAVE the best-of-the-best, sure, you don't have to worry about crap at all. You've started with a great source. But as for me, I really enjoy hearing DAVE bring out perfection as much as I love DAVE to bring out flaws. I think it's really cool to hear DAVE reveal a dodgy tape splice, or a squeaky kick drum pedal. You won't find much of that in classical music, which is why I reach for a variety, including much classical. 

All of this really makes me wonder what 1 million taps can do, which should make you wonder what getting your brain burned into 164,000 taps can do. I think - no, I know - that you're missing out. I mean, if the DAVE can take a crappy Pye era Kinks' album and make it sound "better," how much more can it do for your best Wagner?


----------



## jelt2359

evolvist said:


> Right, but from what I gather you are a classical only person, which is fine, but that's a limitation, too, when it comes to hearing what the DAVE can do.
> 
> I'm not so sure about "crap in = crap out," either. There are several recordings that I could name to where I thought that I was going to get crap out, but the DAVE was able to peal away layers in the music that were there, but without a quality mechanism for reproduction like the DAVE I never knew the layers had a chance of standing out.
> 
> ...


 
 Actually sometimes I find that testing gear with 'crappy' compressed pop music can really show through. Some gear just sounds absolutely unlistenable; but the best gear tends to take the edge off, add separation, and all along make it enjoyable anyway.
  
 EDM doesn't have to be compressed either- but it is frequently very complex and layered. Works well for testing too.
  
 Ultimately the best tracks are the ones you know well.


----------



## 7ryder

jelt2359 said:


> *Ultimately the best tracks are the ones you know well.*


 
  
 EXACTLY and 'nuff said.


----------



## EVOLVIST

rob watts said:


> The DX outputs will go to my DX input power amps - so these are specially designed digital input power amps that will decode the DX outputs from Dave.
> 
> I have started work on the next issue of PCB's for the first power amp.
> 
> ...




This was the post I was looking for. 

So, Rob, with the new 20w digital amp, if I'm reading you right, "multiple output powers to suit" means that the amp can drive 4ohm, 6ohm, 8ohm, 16ohm, speakers etc.? 

Also, any more bones that you can throw out about the digital amp? It seems about a month ago I read that you had recieved the PCB boards, but I could be mistaken.


----------



## Rob Watts

No I meant that there will be a range of different products with different powers - but Hugo amp will run with 2 ohms and above, and can even be configured as a 70W mono-block.


----------



## EVOLVIST

rob watts said:


> No I meant that there will be a range of different products with different powers - but Hugo amp will run with 2 ohms and above, and can even be configured as a 70W mono-block.




Thank you, Rob. As you can tell I know nothing about amplification, as I've never purchased an amp in my life. I should probably do some reading before I post more ignorant questions. 

Still, it seems you posted an interesting tidbit. Thank you. Do you think we'll see the first of this amp series this year?


----------



## Rob Watts

Since there are aspects about this that have never been done before by anybody, I can't give a firm date - it will be finished when its finished - but the prototype design is nearly done now.


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> No I meant that there will be a range of different products with different powers - but Hugo amp will run with 2 ohms and above, and can even be configured as a 70W mono-block.


 

 Hugo Amp ? So it is made with intention for Hugo, that is cool news if so


----------



## dmance

beolab said:


> Hugo Amp ? So it is made with intention for Hugo, that is cool news if so


 

 ​I presume, without DX outputs, the Hugo2 will leverage the USB port to output its up-sampled digital audio to the AMP.  I speculate that the Hugo2 'stack' for desktop use will be three products conjoined by screwthreads and the two USB ports.  [AMP][JOLY][HUGO2].  its unclear if the reported MSCALER for Hugo2 (using the dual COAX inputs via the 3.5mm jack) will be outboard or become part of the stack, somehow.  BTW - I have zero knowledge of any of this ... just trying to read into JF/RW's minds.


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> No I meant that there will be a range of different products with different powers - but Hugo amp will run with 2 ohms and above, and can even be configured as a 70W mono-block.


 
  
 Why do you call it «Hugo amp»? It was announced to be used with the DAVE exclusively from the start (via the two DX outputs «for a future product»), so what does the Hugo (2) have to do with it? Can the Hugo² feed it as well, exploiting its full potential?
  
 And how about the Hugo²'s dual-data mode? What is it intended for?


----------



## Rob Watts

Its the initial code word for the first product - and Hugo because its the smallest one. There will be much more than one.
  
 I have said too much already, so I will talk about the amps when I have something more tangible to say!
  
 Rob


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> Its the initial code word for the first product - and Hugo because its the smallest one. There will be much more than one.
> 
> I have said too much already, so I will talk about the amps when I have something more tangible to say!
> 
> Rob


 
  
 Thanks, Rob. So I'll better leave it at that!


----------



## Modwright01

Something strange happened today.

 When I usually listen at -13 to -10 with my LCD 4, today I feel like the chord Dave hp out has less power, which means, I can reach -3 to 0 without problem... What...
  
 I use the dave with J river. Tried to switch from USB to optical with the same result... And I plugged it into my HP4 EAR in DAC mode (RCA), and again, I have to turn the tubes amp's knob  more than usual...
  
 The Dave seems to have less power than usually... 
  
 Anyone experienced the same strange problem ?


----------



## EVOLVIST

modwright01 said:


> Something strange happened today.
> 
> 
> When I usually listen at -13 to -10 with my LCD 4, today I feel like the chord Dave hp out has less power, which means, I can reach -3 to 0 without problem... What...
> ...




Yes, I've been bleating about that since I got my DAVE. For some reason I have to turn up the DAVE's volume to use to what you describe for HP listening. I never came to any sort of conclusion on why that would be unless I'm going deaf all of a sudden, in which case I will sell all of my gear and move into an old folks home. 

Connected to speakers, though, in some rigs that I've dropped my DAVE into, the DAVE hangs around the -30db to -20db, depending on amp output. 

Go figure.


----------



## Mojo ideas

rob watts said:


> Its the initial code word for the first product - and Hugo because its the smallest one. There will be much more than one.
> 
> I have said too much already, so I will talk about the amps when I have something more tangible to say!
> 
> Rob


 Or possibly after we launch it!


----------



## Modwright01

evolvist said:


> Yes, I've been bleating about that since I got my DAVE. For some reason I have to turn up the DAVE's volume to use to what you describe for HP listening. I never came to any sort of conclusion on why that would be unless I'm going deaf all of a sudden, in which case I will sell all of my gear and move into an old folks home.
> 
> Connected to speakers, though, in some rigs that I've dropped my DAVE into, the DAVE hangs around the -30db to -20db, depending on amp output.
> 
> Go figure.


 
  
 Man, i think I'm gonna send my unit to be checked/repaired, I think something is going seriously wrong with this power issue. Now i just think about the fact that I smelt a strange hot or burning odor exactly when I was listening my HP, I was looking for the origin of that smell, I didn't think about the dave...but I think maybe it is the dave ? a part inside simply burned without any logical reason ? Hard to believe but freaking crazy coincidence.
  
 And I noticed that : when the Dave is usually to be kind of hot when I use it, today the temperature stays tepid...
  
 Except that loss of power, the dave seems to work perfectly...

 Someone has a miracle way to maybe "reset" the unit ?


----------



## EVOLVIST

modwright01 said:


> Man, i think I'm gonna send my unit to be checked/repaired, I think something is going seriously wrong with this power issue. Now i just think about the fact that I smelt a strange hot or burning odor exactly when I was listening my HP, I was looking for the origin of that smell, I didn't think about the dave...but I think maybe a part inside simply burned without any logical reason.
> 
> And I noticed that : when the Dave is usually to be kind of hot when I use it, today the temperature stays tepid...
> 
> Except if someone has a miracle way to maybe "reset" the unit ?


 
  
 Yeah, my DAVE has never run hot before, even if I keep it on 24/7 for weeks. But now the temperature is tepid, so maybe now your DAVE is finally "burned in."


----------



## Modwright01

Evolvist, me it is the opposite, my dave used to run HOT when I was using it but now it is and stay tepid, since I had this power loss today.


----------



## EVOLVIST

mojo ideas said:


> Or possibly after we launch it!


 
  
 I love the Yin & Yang between Franks and Watts.
  
 Hey John, why don't you send me a Scamp to audition?


----------



## draytonklammer

I am now officially considering getting the DAVE. Better strap in and read through this thread...


----------



## EVOLVIST

draytonklammer said:


> I am now officially considering getting the DAVE. Better strap in and read through this thread...




Yeah, if you have Focal Utopias or LCD 4 you had better really strap yourself in, because nothing will do your cans justice like the headphone section of the DAVE. Hell, even the HD800s! When you've reached the pinnacle you'll know it. DAVE has the greatest headphone out in the business. No amp can compete (and believe me, I've tried tons).


----------



## draytonklammer

evolvist said:


> Yeah, if you have Focal Utopias or LCD 4 you had better really strap yourself in, because nothing will do your cans justice like the headphone section of the DAVE. Hell, even the HD800s! When you've reached the pinnacle you'll know it. DAVE has the greatest headphone out in the business. No amp can compete (and believe me, I've tried tons).


 
 Good to know. I used to own an LCD-4/HEK v1 and v2, but now I own the Abyss + Utopia.
  
 I have heard I could technically sell my Moon Neo 430HAD to get the DAVE, but I wonder if I should keep it separate, especially with all of my cables being balanced...


----------



## Modwright01

Just shot a message to chord to ask what it happening with this power loss.

 I'll let the group in touch.
  
 I comfirm it is an amazing HP amp


----------



## ray-dude

rob watts said:


> Its the initial code word for the first product - and Hugo because its the smallest one. There will be much more than one.
> 
> I have said too much already, so I will talk about the amps when I have something more tangible to say!
> 
> Rob


 
  

 Quote: 





mojo ideas said:


> Or possibly after we launch it!


 
  
  
 This is the funniest thing I've read in a while (love it


----------



## jlbrach

draytonklammer said:


> I am now officially considering getting the DAVE. Better strap in and read through this thread...


 
 It is entertaining to watch your trials and tribulations as you go from one to another!


----------



## draytonklammer

jlbrach said:


> It is entertaining to watch your trials and tribulations as you go from one to another!


 
 It's honestly crazy.
  
 Just a year and a half ago I tried the Sennheiser HD 800 for the first time (at the time my cans had gone from the Beyer DT 990 to the Final Audio Design Pandora Hope VI both out of an Asus Xonar Essence STX)
  
 Man, my poor wallet, but hey at least my ears are happy.
  
 It has been worth the journey so far. I wonder where the DAVE will take me if I can find one for a good price, or if I will regret it. Hm...


----------



## EVOLVIST

draytonklammer said:


> It's honestly crazy.
> 
> Just a year and a half ago I tried the Sennheiser HD 800 for the first time (at the time my cans had gone from the Beyer DT 990 to the Final Audio Design Pandora Hope VI both out of an Asus Xonar Essence STX)
> 
> ...


 
  
 The truth is, and no joke, with advances that Chord has been making (and I know I'm not alone), people have been wondering if they should go the route of getting a Hugo2 + M-Scaler and perhaps saving a little money for the time being. But the thing is, I can't shake myself away from the DAVE, and it's not because of the cost.
  
 I'm not sure how DAVE sounds with the M-Scaler, or even the Hugo2 for that matter, but it's DAVE that I feel will carry the day, because Chord isn't going to just let their flagship flounder. It's galvanically isolated; it has the noise shapers and filters like no other, so, in short, I just can't see myself parting with the DAVE. It's not even a status thing. Not even close. However, I've got to say, when I bring my DAVE over for listening parties and put it in other people's systems, it never fails that the crowd goes wild for it.
  
 I'm not trying to sell you on the thing; I just don't think you would regret it. "Regret" would be me going for a lesser product, even if it's still in the Chord line.


----------



## Deftone

In regard to Dave with crap in = crap out, I agree that it would not be the case. With the mojo one of the first things that I did notice was how the mojo was able to make my poor quality compressed albums sound good and what I mean by good is the mojo made it much more enjoyable than ever before so the quality of the album would be pushed to the back of my mind and not continuously noticeable.


----------



## jelt2359

draytonklammer said:


> It's honestly crazy.
> 
> Just a year and a half ago I tried the Sennheiser HD 800 for the first time (at the time my cans had gone from the Beyer DT 990 to the Final Audio Design Pandora Hope VI both out of an Asus Xonar Essence STX)
> 
> ...


 
 You won't regret it, I was wondering when you and your wallet would make it over here.  Welcome to the club!


----------



## draytonklammer

jelt2359 said:


> You won't regret it, I was wondering when you and your wallet would make it over here.  Welcome to the club!


 
 Me thinks my wallet is going to kill me in my sleep.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

draytonklammer said:


> Me thinks my wallet is going to kill me in my sleep.


 
  
 Hey, this could be a speaker forum!  This stuff all is all cheap by contrast 
  
 But, yeah, sleep with one eye open...


----------



## draytonklammer

bigfatpaulie said:


> Hey, this could be a speaker forum!  This stuff all is all cheap by contrast
> 
> But, yeah, sleep with one eye open...


 
 True, true.
  
 I will haha, I think it's already giving me a dirty look. My fiance will probably kill me, too.


----------



## jelt2359

draytonklammer said:


> Me thinks my wallet is going to kill me in my sleep.


 
 No wonder you've been making extra sure that it'll a lightweight when it makes that attempt!


----------



## lovemov

I have to report this good news here. I've tried an ifi USB3.0 between mac and Dave and wanted to see if it improves any SQ.
  
 It did improved slightly to my ear.
  
 And a great side-product, DSD2566 now works beautifully with the the ifi in between...guess I will be more likely keep the Dave.
  
 Now the last thing is PCM+/DSD+ mode switching, I hope Chord will improve this in the future firmware update? For now maybe I will live like one full night plays PCM only and DSD the other day....


----------



## jelt2359

evolvist said:


> The truth is, and no joke, with advances that Chord has been making (and I know I'm not alone), people have been wondering if they should go the route of getting a Hugo2 + M-Scaler and perhaps saving a little money for the time being. But the thing is, I can't shake myself away from the DAVE, and it's not because of the cost.
> 
> I'm not sure how DAVE sounds with the M-Scaler, or even the Hugo2 for that matter, but it's DAVE that I feel will carry the day, because Chord isn't going to just let their flagship flounder. It's galvanically isolated; it has the noise shapers and filters like no other, so, in short, I just can't see myself parting with the DAVE. It's not even a status thing. Not even close. However, I've got to say, when I bring my DAVE over for listening parties and put it in other people's systems, it never fails that the crowd goes wild for it.
> 
> I'm not trying to sell you on the thing; I just don't think you would regret it. "Regret" would be me going for a lesser product, even if it's still in the Chord line.


 
 I know of someone who has compared the two directly, H+M and D, and the results were mixed. In some cases the H+M sounded better, and in others the D sounded better. The former has more taps, but the Dave has more processing power, a better power supply, and a better analog output stage.
  
 H+M and D are rather close in price, too.


----------



## JaZZ

jelt2359 said:


> I know of someone who has compared the two directly, H+M and D, and the results were mixed. In some cases the H+M sounded better, and in others the D sounded better. The former has more taps, but the Dave has more processing power, a better power supply, and a better analog output stage.
> 
> H+M and D are rather close in price, too.


 
  
 Couldn't he or she post the comparison in detail here?


----------



## analogmusic

did anyone get to hear the Mscaler at Bristol 2017? Not a single report on this..... why?


----------



## Triode User

analogmusic said:


> did anyone get to hear the Mscaler at Bristol 2017? Not a single report on this..... why?




I'm sure I saw a post from someone saying it was a disaster . . . . . . . . . . for his wallet. (Paraphrasing)


----------



## maxh22

analogmusic said:


> did anyone get to hear the Mscaler at Bristol 2017? Not a single report on this..... why?


 
 This was posted on the Blu mkII  thread but here you go:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/838305/chord-electronics-blu-mkii-cd-transport-upscaler-review#post_13296842


----------



## EVOLVIST

maxh22 said:


> This was posted on the Blu mkII  thread but here you go:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/838305/chord-electronics-blu-mkii-cd-transport-upscaler-review#post_13296842




Interesting that they used the Mezzo 75 in the rig. Given the description of the 75's power supply, I wonder if that's what the new Chord amps are going to be based upon.


----------



## AndrewOld

analogmusic said:


> did anyone get to hear the Mscaler at Bristol 2017? Not a single report on this..... why?




Maybe not many people in the UK are interested in a cd transport? Because it's 2017 and they play their music from one of those computer thingies? Now if it actually was an MScaler, rather than a cd transport, I'd have travelled to Bristol myself...


----------



## highfell

andrewold said:


> Maybe not many people in the UK are interested in a cd transport? Because it's 2017 and they play their music from one of those computer thingies? Now if it actually was an MScaler, rather than a cd transport, I'd have travelled to Bristol myself...




You are sounding like a broken record on this matter. We all know your views on the matter so perhaps you can give it a break.

BTW - I was at the show to listen to Hugo2.

However, I enjoyed listening to the Blu2 into Dave into large PMC speakers in Chord's listening room - boy does that system sound good. There was no chance to compare Dave alone versus it being fed by Blu2.


----------



## EVOLVIST

highfell said:


> At the Bristol show yesterday, a Chord employee said that the M Scaler in the Blu2 upscales using 1M taps (not 500K) and then passes that digital signal to Dave and Dave's 164K taps




What is the truth then? It's been said before that much of the DAVE is now dormant with the Blu2 in the chain. I, for one, don't want to believe this, but what does Chord say? 

(Note my wishful thinking.)


----------



## miketlse

evolvist said:


> What is the truth then? It's been said before that much of the DAVE is now dormant with the Blu2 in the chain. I, for one, don't want to believe this, but what does Chord say?
> 
> (Note my wishful thinking.)


 
  
 I have tried to find the post explaining it. It is 1 million taps in total, but I am sure that this is split between the Blu2 and DAVE. Blu2 does substitute for the initial upscaling stages in DAVE, leaving these redundant, but the final upscaling is performed by the DAVE. However this seems to contradict what @highfell heard
  
 Here is that post which I kept visualising. http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/7455#post_13234615
 So it seems like the Blu2 does 1M taps of upscaling, then feeds the signal into the DAVE after the initial 16 ufs stage of upscaling, and the rest of the DAVE upscaling is still used. So a portion of DAVE will be dormant, but I think it relates to only a small portion of DAVE, rather than the majority.
  
 That also helps explain why the Blu2 + hugo 2 will achieve less overall taps than the Blu2 + DAVE.


----------



## AndrewOld

evolvist said:


> What is the truth then? It's been said before that much of the DAVE is now dormant with the Blu2 in the chain. I, for one, don't want to believe this, but what does Chord say?
> 
> (Note my wishful thinking.)




It seems utterly crazy. 

A Blu2 and a DAVE would mean (for many people) an unused cd transport in the Blu2 that you have to pay a lot of money for and 164k unused taps in the DAVE that you paid a lot of money for.

Somehow I don't feel this is the right way to treat customers, or to get them.


----------



## Modwright01

Mysteriously, the level of my dave is back to normal power tonight ... What...


----------



## miketlse

modwright01 said:


> Mysteriously, the level of my dave is back to normal power tonight ... What...


 
  
 You could have had a buyer for your DAVE (see post #7763) for the right price, but I presume you will be keeping it now.


----------



## Modwright01

Yes.

 It is not for sale and under warranty for 5 years, so...anyway 
  
  
 But I think there is one for sale on HF ... I think I saw one.


----------



## EVOLVIST

modwright01 said:


> Mysteriously, the level of my dave is back to normal power tonight ... What...


 
  
 Maybe the wife was running the vacuum at the time? Maybe there's no DAC in the world that can separate the instruments from the muddy mono mix of _Pet Sounds_? (God bless that beautiful album.)


----------



## Modwright01

And I finally discovered from where the hot ordor came...Not the dave, it was an insect on a bulb... lol.
  
 Anyway, I suppose this is something to do with the usb connection...It seems to be really sensitive, i just noticed i plugged into a different computer usb out... Freaking strange.
  
 Anyway, you are right for Pet Sounds. I saw it played in live by the Beach Boys , and I have to say Dave does an amazing job. Even I prefer the stereo mix, it is even better.


----------



## JaZZ

miketlse said:


> evolvist said:
> 
> 
> > What is the truth then? It's been said before that much of the DAVE is now dormant with the Blu2 in the chain. I, for one, don't want to believe this, but what does Chord say?
> ...


 
  
 I think that's based on a misunderstanding. The WTA filtering is fully done on the M-Scaler, so the DAVE's WTA filter is inactive – thus has the same million taps as with the Hugo². However, from what I get and recall, there's some further upsampling done in the DAVE (and in the Hugo[2] as well) for noise-shaping and whatever purposes (remember the DAVE's superb modulation-noise suppression!).


----------



## JaZZ

evolvist said:


> Maybe there's no DAC in the world that can separate the instruments from the muddy mono mix of _Pet Sounds_? (God bless that beautiful album.)


 
  


modwright01 said:


> Anyway, you are right for Pet Sounds. I saw it played in live by the Beach Boys , and I have to say Dave does an amazing job. Even I prefer the stereo mix, it is even better.


 
  
 Interested in a stereo* version of the remaining mono tracks? PM me! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
* read: stereophonized


----------



## miketlse

jazz said:


> I think that's based on a misunderstanding. The WTA filtering is fully done on the M-Scaler, so the DAVE's WTA filter is inactive – thus has the same million taps as with the Hugo². However, from what I get and recall, there's some further upsampling done in the DAVE (and in the Hugo[2] as well) for noise-shaping and whatever purposes (remember the DAVE's superb modulation-noise suppression!).


 
  
 Damn! Just when i thought I was starting to understand things, you have bowled a googly.


----------



## JaZZ

miketlse said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > I think that's based on a misunderstanding. The WTA filtering is fully done on the M-Scaler, so the DAVE's WTA filter is inactive – thus has the same million taps as with the Hugo². However, from what I get and recall, there's some further upsampling done in the DAVE (and in the Hugo[2] as well) for noise-shaping and whatever purposes (remember the DAVE's superb modulation-noise suppression!).
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, sorry, Mike! But better late than never. I've had a hard time understanding the stuff as well, it's very complex. Just not as complex as I intermediately thought; my initial idea was much closer: The number of «taps» indicates the sharpness of the low-pass filter – called WTA filter in Rob's sophisticated implementation –, performed by the upsampling algorithm. Other than commonly interpreted the main function of upsampling is always low-pass filtering.


----------



## Jawed

Apparently I have to link this block diagram on every page of this thread:



The 16FS primary WTA stage uses most of the FPGA (well, most of the DSP cores, there's programmable cells that are separate). The second WTA stage, to 256FS, is tiny by comparison. The final linear interpolation stage to 2048FS can't be large (not big enough to be given a size on the diagram). But the Noise Shaper that comes afterwards is so big that it couldn't fit, all on its own, into Hugo's FPGA.

The 16FS primary WTA stage is completely redundant when the M-Scaler feeds 16FS music into DAVE.

Now playing: Bettie Serveert - Balentine


----------



## ray-dude

jazz said:


> I think that's based on a misunderstanding. The WTA filtering is fully done on the M-Scaler, so the DAVE's WTA filter is inactive – thus has the same million taps as with the Hugo². However, from what I get and recall, there's some further upsampling done in the DAVE (and in the Hugo[2] as well) for noise-shaping and whatever purposes (remember the DAVE's superb modulation-noise suppression!).


 
  
 This is why I'm hopeful that Hugo2 + Mscaler will be roughly equivalent to Dave + Mscaler.  My pro forma "What Would Watts Do" acquisition roadmap is
  
 Mojo for mobile/office use (done)
 Hugo 2 for my 2 channel system (preordered)
 Add an Mscaler for my 2 channel system (take my money, please!)
 Add digital amps to mscaler in my 2 channel system
 "promote" my Hugo 2 to office use, with Mojo for mobile use.


----------



## EVOLVIST

miketlse said:


> I have tried to find the post explaining it. It is 1 million taps in total, but I am sure that this is split between the Blu2 and DAVE. Blu2 does substitute for the initial upscaling stages in DAVE, leaving these redundant, but the final upscaling is performed by the DAVE. However this seems to contradict what @highfell
> heard
> 
> Here is that post which I kept visualising. http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/7455#post_13234615
> ...




That wasn't quite the post I was thinking of, but almost. At any rate, hmmmm... But dual data mode with the Hugo2 DOES give you 1m taps. But you're not getting 2048x upsampling with the Hugo2. DAVE is also a 20 element pulse array design compared to the Hugo2 at 10e. From my understanding, this makes up a large part of DAVE's small signal integrity and lack of distortion. 

All of this (and more, I'm sure) makes the DAVE far from obsolete. Indeed, the DAVE is needed to take full advantage of Blu2's 1mil taps. 

So, really, if we think there is a possibility to go well below DAVE's 0.000015% THD, and zero noise floor modulation, and to be able to actually HEAR a difference, I would think that the DAVE will remain the go-to DAC, where all one could hope to do is increase the taps to 250 million to fully render 24-bit audio. 

I'm thinking that's not the whole story, though, since it's logical that there would be noise problems inherent in reaching such a lofty peak.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Two things that are immediately noticeable about escalated upsampling even from my Red Ref III is 1) Tighter bass and 2) Greater accuracy of instrument timbre, though I can't say I understand why.

I am still absolutely smitten by the Dave Dac after 15 months. It's quite hard to imagine the level of performance Blu2 M Scaler can brink to the party but I am looking forward to hearing it.


----------



## JaZZ

ray-dude said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > I think that's based on a misunderstanding. The WTA filtering is fully done on the M-Scaler, so the DAVE's WTA filter is inactive – thus has the same million taps as with the Hugo². However, from what I get and recall, there's some further upsampling done in the DAVE (and in the Hugo[2] as well) for noise-shaping and whatever purposes (remember the DAVE's superb modulation-noise suppression!).
> ...


 
  
 Are you sure the M-Scaler can drive the digital amp? I don't recall such a statement from Rob (don't exclude it, though).


----------



## Jawed

evolvist said:


> [...]But dual data mode with the Hugo2 DOES give you 1m taps. But you're not getting 2048x upsampling with the Hugo2.



All of Chord's current DACs upsample to 2048FS. They all have a noise shaper and pulse array running at the same speed.

A key difference between them is the initial WTA filter stage (which is the most important, it determines the overall performance level). That's why it's apparently so obvious when M Scaler is connected to DAVE.



> DAVE is also a 20 element pulse array design compared to the Hugo2 at 10e. From my understanding, this makes up a large part of DAVE's small signal integrity and lack of distortion.




So both of these stages in DAVE (noise shaper and pulse array) are far ahead of any other DAC. But Hugo 2, with 10 elements is a big improvement over the 4 elements seen in Hugo (TT and 2Qute) and Mojo.



> All of this (and more, I'm sure) makes the DAVE far from obsolete. Indeed, the DAVE is needed to take full advantage of Blu2's 1mil taps.
> 
> So, really, if we think there is a possibility to go well below DAVE's 0.000015% THD, and zero noise floor modulation, and to be able to actually HEAR a difference, I would think that the DAVE will remain the go-to DAC, where all one could hope to do is increase the taps to 250 million to fully render 24-bit audio.



Arguably there should be a single stage WTA filter that goes directly to 2048FS.

I'm not convinced that noise floor modulation in DAVE is zero. It's very clear in TT once you compare it with DAVE and I think I hear a residual of the same with DAVE. But the only proof is when you hear a better DAC...

Now playing: This Mortal Coil - Dreams Made Flesh


----------



## Jawed

jazz said:


> Are you sure the M-Scaler can drive the digital amp? I don't recall such a statement from Rob (don't exclude it, though).



The Power DAC (I think that's a better name) has a volume control. So when driven by Blu 2 via the DX connection you will have no need for DAVE. All the functionality in DAVE after the first stage 16FS WTA filter is functionality that the Power DAC will need to implement itself. See the diagram I posted earlier. Notice the block called DX Digital Output.

There is a complication with DSD though. I wonder if Rob is going to ignore it completely in Blu 2.

Now playing: Pink Floyd - Vera


----------



## Modwright01

I noticed that the tech specs of hugo 2 and Dave are absolutely not presented the same way...Why ?
  
 Left Hugo 2 / Right Dave
  

  
 Less informations for the dave...


----------



## EVOLVIST

jawed said:


> The Power DAC (I think that's a better name) has a volume control. So when driven by Blu 2 via the DX connection you will have no need for DAVE. All the functionality in DAVE after the first stage 16FS WTA filter is functionality that the Power DAC will need to implement itself. See the diagram I posted earlier. Notice the block called DX Digital Output.
> 
> There is a complication with DSD though. I wonder if Rob is going to ignore it completely in Blu 2.
> 
> Now playing: Pink Floyd - Vera




What are you talking about?

I have no idea what he's talking about.

Did you just invent something for Chord?


----------



## JaZZ

Do we have to engage the poor Rob again for clarifying the issue? I have a hard time deducing something from DAVE's above block diagram.


----------



## jelt2359

ray-dude said:


> This is why I'm hopeful that Hugo2 + Mscaler will be roughly equivalent to Dave + Mscaler.  My pro forma "What Would Watts Do" acquisition roadmap is
> 
> Mojo for mobile/office use (done)
> Hugo 2 for my 2 channel system (preordered)
> ...


 
 What I've heard from those who have compared the two is that it is no contest.
  
 Dave vs Hugo2 + Mscaler, however, is mixed. In some respects the Dave is better, in others, the H2+M is better.
  
 Anyway, what you're doing is probably not wrong, you could even sell the Mojo later, use the H2 for mobile/office use, and then if you want step up to a DAVE.


----------



## rkt31

@Modwright01, are you sure you were feeding bit perfect to Dave all the time ? may be some settings changed accidentally in j river. for music I always use foobar . it is much more fool proof as it has bare minimum features and what it does best is to just send the bit perfect stream to your dac and nothing else until unless you install and activate some plugin for SRC etc.


----------



## PANURUS

rkt31 said:


> @Modwright01, are you sure you were feeding bit perfect to Dave all the time ? may be some settings changed accidentally in j river. for music I always use foobar . it is much more fool proof as it has bare minimum features and what it does best is to just send the bit perfect stream to your dac and nothing else until unless you install and activate some plugin for SRC etc.


 
 In foobar : Do you use Asio or Asio2?
 https://sourceforge.net/projects/foobar2000-wasap2-output/
 have you find informations about the differences?
 Wich one do you prefer?


----------



## highfell

jawed said:


> Apparently I have to link this block diagram on every page of this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My take is that in simple terms, if you look at the diagram above , the MScaler would theoretically have a feed input into the DX digital OP box, thus bypassing the 160 parallel DSP cores.

Dave has a 17th order noise shaper versus Hugo2's 10th and Dave has a 20 element pulse array modulator versus Hugo2's 10, so there is seemingly still a big difference between the two. For example, in the past, Rob has posted how important the increase in the noise shaper "order" between the original Hugo (5th order - I think) and Dave was in improving the sound.


----------



## Modwright01

rkt31 said:


> @Modwright01, are you sure you were feeding bit perfect to Dave all the time ? may be some settings changed accidentally in j river. for music I always use foobar . it is much more fool proof as it has bare minimum features and what it does best is to just send the bit perfect stream to your dac and nothing else until unless you install and activate some plugin for SRC etc.




I suppose it is a software issue yes. Even i checked jriver was in bitperfect but sometimes jriver seems unstable...

I do not like foobar. I will try another software soon do not know whay playet yet.

EDIT : I just noticed now it is Jriver switching from Direct sound to ASIO sometimes when I use the Chord for window sounds... Pfffff...

So the this is not the dave's fault ! People if you have strange power variation on you dac out, please check if the player doesn't switch into a non bitperfect mode :rolleyes:


----------



## Mojo ideas

evolvist said:


> I love the Yin & Yang between Franks and Watts.
> 
> Hey John, why don't you send me a Scamp to audition?


 The scamp is now a Ten year old product that we rarely build these days but the TToby is in full production though and was very well reviewed by Paul Miller in HFN recently PM me and I'll see if I can get one to you


----------



## jelt2359

highfell said:


> My take is that in simple terms, if you look at the diagram above , the MScaler would theoretically have a feed input into the DX digital OP box, thus bypassing the 160 parallel DSP cores.
> 
> Dave has a 17th order noise shaper versus Hugo2's 10th and Dave has a 20 element pulse array modulator versus Hugo2's 10, so there is seemingly still a big difference between the two. For example, in the past, Rob has posted how important the increase in the noise shaper "order" between the original Hugo (5th order - I think) and Dave was in improving the sound.


 
 For those with Blu2, maybe we can now have a 34th order noise shaper in the Dave, lol.


----------



## rkt31

@PANURUS, I see only chord asio 1.05 in drop down menu which I use as output.


----------



## tunes

"Dave vs Hugo2 + Mscaler, however, is mixed. In some respects the Dave is better, in others, the H2+M is better."

Can someone explain or point me to the thread about what an M-scaler is, how it can improve the SQ of the Hugo2 and bring it even closer to the DAVE and what it costs?


----------



## Modwright01

tunes said:


> "Dave vs Hugo2 + Mscaler, however, is mixed. In some respects the Dave is better, in others, the H2+M is better."
> 
> Can someone explain or point me to the thread about what an M-scaler is, how it can improve the SQ of the Hugo2 and bring it even closer to the DAVE and what it costs?


 
 Man, 
  
 the M-Scaler costs £7995... Wich means, Hugo 2 + M scaler will cost the Dave price


----------



## ray-dude

jazz said:


> Are you sure the M-Scaler can drive the digital amp? I don't recall such a statement from Rob (don't exclude it, though).


 

 100% speculation (the first rule of digital amp is you don't talk about digital amp  
  
 It is likely confirmation bias on my part, but my inference/wish for the digital amp has always been a DAVE with 100W output (200W mono block).  That is, a beefy amp fully integrated with an awesome DAC.  If one has a Mscaler and digital amp (with the express goal of minimizing the path between digital signal and analog output), it isn't clear to me what role a DAVE (or any other DAC) would play in that chain.  Since the Mscaler is basically upstream of the DAC, my assumption is that it could be used to feed a digital amp directly
  
 Again, 100% speculation.  After John let's Rob out of solitary confinement, I'm looking forward to another "3 in the morning, haven't slept in a couple day" slip of the tongue


----------



## jelt2359

modwright01 said:


> Man,
> 
> the M-Scaler costs £7995... Wich means, Hugo 2 + M scaler will cost the Dave price


 
 It'll be like the Nintendo Switch, though- you can take part of it on the road.
  
 The Dave will be more like a PS4!


----------



## lovethatsound

jelt2359 said:


> It'll be like the Nintendo Switch, though- you can take part of it on the road.
> 
> The Dave will be more like a PS4!


The Nintendo Switch is not getting a very good review,check out IGN for more information☺


----------



## 514077

I assume the M-Scaler is part of the Blue II.  Is there going to eventually be an M-Scaler on its own without the CD player?


----------



## jelt2359

uelong said:


> I assume the M-Scaler is part of the Blue II.  Is there going to eventually be an M-Scaler on its own without the CD player?


 
 Yes, it is part of the Blu2. There may be an M-Scaler later, but expect it to be neither portable, nor in a significantly different price bracket:
  
  
  
 Quote:


mojo ideas said:


> please try to understand our pricing policy is always fair. When We at Chord and Rob decide to make a product that has never existed before and often involves years of design and programming. We are often unsure if a design will be a sortafter success or not. This is purely because we have nothing to measure it against as the new design has no piers or competitors. So to take something like the mega scaler and to try to recover the costs by gearing up to produce very large numbers at a marginal cost would just be foolish as there would be too much risk. It's far more advisable to recover the developement cost over a limited but higher valuable number of premium products and then perhaps at a later time carry out a marketing exercise to see if a cost reduced design is possible and is worth doing.


 
  
  


mojo ideas said:


> A ten Ampere power requirement for a 1,000,000 taps or even 5 Ampere for half a million is out of the question for a mobile product. The price of the mega scaler reflects the both the cost of the chipset and the cost of the extensive programming that went into it.


----------



## draytonklammer

Does anyone have the ability to compare the built-in 430HA dac versus the DAVE?
  
 I realize they're in very different price categories, but I don't expect the Moon is lacking THAT much.
 Just curious to know what I could expect if I decide to make this leap.


----------



## EVOLVIST

draytonklammer said:


> Does anyone have the ability to compare the built-in 430HA dac versus the DAVE?
> 
> I realize they're in very different price categories, but I don't expect the Moon is lacking THAT much.
> Just curious to know what I could expect if I decide to make this leap.


 
  
 Have you plugged your cans into a DAVE yet?


----------



## draytonklammer

evolvist said:


> Have you plugged your cans into a DAVE yet?


 
 I've never used a DAVE, I would be buying blindly as I have no way to audition them.
  
 To be honest though, I buy all of my gear blindly.


----------



## EVOLVIST

draytonklammer said:


> I've never used a DAVE, I would be buying blindly as I have no way to audition them.
> 
> To be honest though, I buy all of my gear blindly.


 


rob watts said:


> Dave does indeed have a unique amplifier section - it is actually a 2nd order analogue noise shaper (a conventional amp is a first order noise shaper).
> 
> The reason I do this is two fold - firstly, whenever you load a headphone amp you get more distortion, and its audible and all amplifiers suffer from this. By using a 2nd order noise shaper approach allows me to eliminate this problem - when I load the outputs there is zero change in distortion (apart from a small increase in 2nd harmonic). This means when you load the OP, there is no change in sound quality (all other amps harden up and to mask this they add a lot of 2nd harmonic to fatten the sound up).
> 
> ...


----------



## jelt2359

draytonklammer said:


> Does anyone have the ability to compare the built-in 430HA dac versus the DAVE?
> 
> I realize they're in very different price categories, but I don't expect the Moon is lacking THAT much.
> Just curious to know what I could expect if I decide to make this leap.


 
 I sold my 430 HAD a while ago now, but yes, the 430's dac seems like a bit of a throw-in, does the job in a pinch but really not in the same league.


----------



## iDesign

draytonklammer said:


> Does anyone have the ability to compare the built-in 430HA dac versus the DAVE?
> 
> I realize they're in very different price categories, but I don't expect the Moon is lacking THAT much.
> Just curious to know what I could expect if I decide to make this leap.



The DAC in the 430HAD was added for utility and not with performance in mind. The DAVE is significantly better and the margin couldn't be any wider. However, the 430HA is an exceptionally transparent amp and thats why it is highly acclaimed.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jelt2359 said:


> I sold my 430 HAD a while ago now, but yes, the 430's dac seems like a bit of a throw-in, does the job in a pinch but really not in the same league.




Sounds like the McIntosh MHA-100. I went and auditioned one of those and I couldn't even tell how good the headphone amp was because the DAC was so poor.


----------



## iDesign

evolvist said:


> Sounds like the McIntosh MHA-100. I went and auditioned one of those and I couldn't even tell how good the headphone amp was because the DAC was so poor.



Not quite. The 430HA is a very neutral, transparent, and powerful amp. For users with hard to drive headphones or have uses for the amp's other features, the 430HA would be top the choice for any Chord DAC. When I used the 430HAD with the DAVE and Mojo, the coloration and loss of transparency was minimal.


----------



## jlbrach

question about the Blu 2 for those in the know...if i was to buy one and connect it to my Dave how exactly would I then listen to headphones?...would I be plugging my HP's into the Dave or the Blu 2?Would there be a difference in amplification?.......I am trying to figure out how one would buy a Blu 2 and take advantage of the increase in taps and performance using HP's....any help would be appreciated!


----------



## lovethatsound

jlbrach said:


> question about the Blu 2 for those in the know...if i was to buy one and connect it to my Dave how exactly would I then listen to headphones?...would I be plugging my HP's into the Dave or the Blu 2?Would there be a difference in amplification?.......I am trying to figure out how one would buy a Blu 2 and take advantage of the increase in taps and performance using HP's....any help would be appreciated!


You would be plugging your headphones into your Dave


----------



## JaZZ

jlbrach said:


> question about the Blu 2 for those in the know...if i was to buy one and connect it to my Dave how exactly would I then listen to headphones?...would I be plugging my HP's into the Dave or the Blu 2?Would there be a difference in amplification?.......I am trying to figure out how one would buy a Blu 2 and take advantage of the increase in taps and performance using HP's....any help would be appreciated!


 
  
  


lovethatsound said:


> jlbrach said:
> 
> 
> > question about the Blu 2 for those in the know...if i was to buy one and connect it to my Dave how exactly would I then listen to headphones?...would I be plugging my HP's into the Dave or the Blu 2?Would there be a difference in amplification?.......I am trying to figure out how one would buy a Blu 2 and take advantage of the increase in taps and performance using HP's....any help would be appreciated!
> ...


 
  
 Yes, _lovethatsound_ is right. The M-Scaler (Blu²) is just switched between your traditional source and the DAVE.


----------



## x RELIC x

For those that want to review the Hugo2 the Canadian Tour thread is now accepting American applicants.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/837542/official-chord-hugo2-canadian-u-s-a-tour-thread#post_13277995


----------



## onsionsi

I have a curiosity to know the brand name of BNC that is using to connect BLU mkII and DAVE in JAPAN releasthe and Power Cable that is using in DAVE and BLUE mkII.
 
http://www.stereosound.co.jp/review/article/2017/01/27/53335.html


----------



## 514077

draytonklammer said:


> evolvist said:
> 
> 
> > Have you plugged your cans into a DAVE yet?
> ...


 
 So do I.  Oops!  Couldn't resist.


----------



## jarnopp

draytonklammer said:


> I've never used a DAVE, I would be buying blindly as I have no way to audition them.
> 
> To be honest though, I buy all of my gear blindly.




Blindly is ok, as long as you listen first.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

What does the looks have to do with it?  Shouldn't the sound matter more 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Buying blind wouldn't bother me.  Buying deaf on the other hand...


----------



## tunes

Sounds like the McIntosh MHA-100. I went and auditioned one of those and I couldn't even tell how good the headphone amp was because the DAC was so poor.
Not quite. The 430HA is a very neutral, transparent, and powerful amp. For users with hard to drive headphones or have uses for the amp's other features, the 430HA would be top the choice for any Chord DAC. When I used the 430HAD with the DAVE and Mojo, the coloration and loss of transparency was minimal.


I heard the DAVE driving the HEKv2 without an amp at then NYC Canjam and it seemed to be more than powerful enough to give a dynamic performance with headroom to spare at even high listening levels. However, I did not listen with another amp using the Chord output to compare. The McIntosh MHA-100 is also reviewed as an excellent pairing with the HEKv2 and also can drive efficient loudspeakers as an advantage. Is there a huge difference in SQ between these two pairings (Dave alone vs McIntosh and built in DAC) to justify a cost about 3 x as much? And if you do need a dedicated high end headphone amp with the Dave to power an inefficient headphone like HEK planars, then it could cost even more for the best high end digitally playback system for headphones.


----------



## jlbrach

tunes said:


> Sounds like the McIntosh MHA-100. I went and auditioned one of those and I couldn't even tell how good the headphone amp was because the DAC was so poor.
> Not quite. The 430HA is a very neutral, transparent, and powerful amp. For users with hard to drive headphones or have uses for the amp's other features, the 430HA would be top the choice for any Chord DAC. When I used the 430HAD with the DAVE and Mojo, the coloration and loss of transparency was minimal.
> 
> 
> I heard the DAVE driving the HEKv2 without an amp at then NYC Canjam and it seemed to be more than powerful enough to give a dynamic performance with headroom to spare at even high listening levels. However, I did not listen with another amp using the Chord output to compare. The McIntosh MHA-100 is also reviewed as an excellent pairing with the HEKv2 and also can drive efficient loudspeakers as an advantage. Is there a huge difference in SQ between these two pairings (Dave alone vs McIntosh and built in DAC) to justify a cost about 3 x as much? And if you do need a dedicated high end headphone amp with the Dave to power an inefficient headphone like HEK planars, then it could cost even more for the best high end digitally playback system for headphones.


 
 MHA-100 and dave are worlds apart....no comparison...the dave alone easily drives the HE1000 v2


----------



## jlbrach

jazz said:


> Yes, _lovethatsound_ is right. The M-Scaler (Blu²) is just switched between your traditional source and the DAVE.


 
 right now I use an ak100 and connect it optically to my dave...if i was to get a blu-2 would i still be able to connect the ak100 to the dave or do i have to connect to the blu-2 and thus only a usb connection?


----------



## JaZZ

jlbrach said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, _lovethatsound_ is right. The M-Scaler (Blu²) is just switched between your traditional source and the DAVE.
> ...


 
  
 I'm not familiar with the AK100. If it doesn't have a USB output beside Toslink (and it seems there's none), you would have to look for a Toslink-to-S/PDIF (BNC) converter.


----------



## lovethatsound

jlbrach said:


> right now I use an ak100 and connect it optically to my dave...if i was to get a blu-2 would i still be able to connect the ak100 to the dave or do i have to connect to the blu-2 and thus only a usb connection?


If you get the blu 2 you would connect the blu 2,to the Dave by 2 bnc coaxial cables for the best sound quality.If you wanted to get the best sound quality from your ak100,you would need to connect it to the blu 2 usb inputIf for some reason you don't,or can't find a way to connect your ak100 to the blu 2,just connect it to your Dave as your doing now.I hope this helps you out


----------



## jlbrach

lovethatsound said:


> If you get the blu 2 you would connect the blu 2,to the Dave by 2 bnc coaxial cables for the best sound quality.If you wanted to get the best sound quality from your ak100,you would need to connect it to the blu 2 usb inputIf for some reason you don't,or can't find a way to connect your ak100 to the blu 2,just connect it to your Dave as your doing now.I hope this helps you out


 
 I am already connecting my ak100 to my dave right now.....if i understand correctly if i was to add the blu 2 i would no longer be able to connect to the Dave and would have to use converters to connect to the blu 2 which is connected to the dave?is that correct?...thanks


----------



## draytonklammer

So, I finally determined how I could come up with the money to fund the DAVE.
  
 I am just trying to decide without hearing it if it's truly worth it -- and if I can include my Moon in the sale for example and just get a 4-pin to SE adapter for all of my custom cables.
  
 Tough decision considering the price of this is worth more or less both of my TOTL headphones.


----------



## miketlse

jlbrach said:


> I am already connecting my ak100 to my dave right now.....if i understand correctly if i was to add the blu 2 i would no longer be able to connect to the Dave and would have to use converters to connect to the blu 2 which is connected to the dave?is that correct?...thanks




It simplifies things if you think in terms of the M - Scalar (which is the key future technology).

So Blu 2 is the M - Scalar with a CD transport added. You would connect your AK 100 to the M - Scalar, and the output of the M - Scalar to the DAVE.

Posters have been asking for a lower cost unit, which is just the M - Scaler, but the system AK 100 > M - Scaler > DAVE would be the same.

Rob Watts has been working on the Davina, which is the M - Scaler plus an ADC, but again the AK 100 > M - Scalar > DAVE routing would be the same.

The issue for you becomes does the M - Scalar element, have the correct input ports for you.


----------



## jlbrach

apparently the m-scaler blu 2 does not have an optical connection which would as i understand it make connecting the ak100 or anything that only has an optical out impossible...is this correct?...i very much appreciate the help


----------



## EVOLVIST

jlbrach said:


> apparently the m-scaler blu 2 does not have an optical connection which would as i understand it make connecting the ak100 or anything that only has an optical out impossible...is this correct?...i very much appreciate the help




You would have to have an optical to USB converter inputting to the USB input of the Blu2


----------



## HeeBroG

Hi Romaz. 
I know this is an old post but I'm playing catchup after reading this entire thread before recently getting a DAVE/ Utopia. 
I particularly enjoy your informative posts. 
We have similar tastes in music. 
I'm new to headfi. 
May I send you a personal message regarding the HFC products as they are intriguing but I don't want to interfere in a Chord Dave thread. 

Cheers


----------



## JaZZ

evolvist said:


> jlbrach said:
> 
> 
> > apparently the m-scaler blu 2 does not have an optical connection which would as i understand it make connecting the ak100 or anything that only has an optical out impossible...is this correct?...i very much appreciate the help
> ...


 
  
 Or – maybe more logical and less expensive – an optical-to-coaxial converter.


----------



## lovethatsound

jlbrach said:


> I am already connecting my ak100 to my dave right now.....if i understand correctly if i was to add the blu 2 i would no longer be able to connect to the Dave and would have to use converters to connect to the blu 2 which is connected to the dave?is that correct?...thanks


Yes that is correct


----------



## rkt31

buy a decent universal/Blu ray player of Sony or pioneer. these have coaxial out and read all formats via usb stick or hdd.


----------



## dguitarnut

Well........my Dave is arriving next week ...in Silver as my amp and streamer are in silver.
USA folks can get a brand new one now for about the same price as a used one because of manufacturer Price decrease and exchange rate. Pm me if you want specifics.
Fully stoked......but right now missing my Yggdrasil which departed too hastily which is such a great DAC and bargain.
Larry


----------



## tunes

Can you PM me with where you purchased the DAVE and what you paid in USD??


----------



## dmance

I live in Canada am saving up for a DAVE and hoping the declining USD retail price and group buys will drive the price down to near affordable levels soon. In Canada the selling price is full MSRP, non negotiable and there is nothing available used.


----------



## micesol@yahoo.co

Hello,
  
 Interested in knowing the new U.S. retail. 
 Thanks,
  
 Michael


----------



## 514077

dmance said:


> I live in Canada am saving up for a DAVE and hoping the declining USD retail price and group buys will drive the price down to near affordable levels soon. In Canada the selling price is full MSRP, non negotiable and there is nothing available used.


 
 Yes, With the high price of goods, such as the Hugo2 is going to be; and with so many restrictions on the free market (purchasing downloads), I'm positively sick of being Canadian.


----------



## Beolab

Have someone heard the very special SPL Phonitor 2 AMP combined with the DAVE yet, and how good is the magnifing and crossfeed / Delay functions ? 

http://spl.info/fileadmin/user_upload/anleitungen/english/Phonitor2_BA_E.pdf


----------



## EVOLVIST

beolab said:


> Have someone heard the very special SPL Phonitor 2 AMP combined with the DAVE yet, and how good is the magnifing and crossfeed / Delay functions ?
> 
> http://spl.info/fileadmin/user_upload/anleitungen/english/Phonitor2_BA_E.pdf




The original SPL Auditor was my headphone amp of choice for years. I would put it up against and SS amp I've ever heard, and without the bells and whistles of the crossfeed and meters on the front, the specs for the original Auditor is better than that of the Phonitor and Phonitor2. We're talking 150db of headroom. 

But, no, I haven't tried the Phonitor2 with the DAVE, but I have heard the Auditor, and no... Just no. For the first time ever something beat out the Auditor's purity, and that was the DAVE's headphone input. Truthfully, I was shocked. The Auditor + DAVE combo sounded cloudy. 

That's just one person's experience, though. With the Metrum Pavane the SPL Auditor was dreamy. Not with the DAVE. It just got in the way.


----------



## Ruben D

Does anyone know if this DAC gets used in vinyl pressing plants to render digital files to records? I also wonder if any concert venues employ it for electronic music performances.


----------



## EVOLVIST

rob watts said:


> No and no.
> 
> And Dave 2 hasn't even been dreamed about - unless major essential parts become unavailable Dave 2 is many years away.
> 
> Rob




Now that you've reached 1mil taps what other major essential parts might you be referring to? As far as your PSU for DAVE I wouldn't think there would be any major technological advances in the parts, themselves, since the magic is in your implementation. Would it be going beyond a 20e pulse array? I mean, globally, what's better than zero measurable noise floor modulation and THD of 0.000015 or 0.000007? Moreover, your WTA filters are your own controllable filters. 

I guess I'm just wondering what more can the ear/brain hear. If we're now saying that we are shooting for a level to the point where we can no longer tell the difference between the instrument and the recording of the instrument we have now conquered beyond what a DAC can do, instead making sweeping changes in the world of microphonics. Since no microphone is an ear nor a brain, the true test doesn't seem attainable. Even if we could turn a mic into an ear, what does that say for the millions of recordings we currently have, which are mixes of different mics, effects, masters, remasters, et al? 

Again, I'm just wondering what the human can perceive in sound, as well as what phsycial technology would be needed now that 1mil taps has been achieved.


----------



## Rob Watts

evolvist said:


> rob watts said:
> 
> 
> > No and no.
> ...


 
 I would have never have predicted how much benefit that I would get from the M scaler, so it's impossible to say what other improvements are waiting to be discovered. But for sure the two huge elephants in the room are power amps and ADC converters that are used to make our recordings, and my focus is to drag these items up to Dave standards, as I am convinced huge benefits are to be had here.


----------



## Triode User

rob watts said:


> No and no.
> And Dave 2 hasn't even been dreamed about - unless major essential parts become unavailable Dave 2 is many years away.
> 
> Rob


 
  
  


evolvist said:


> Now that you've reached 1mil taps what other major essential parts might you be referring to? .................


 
  
 EVOLVIST, I think it is a 'watch his lips' moment. Rob is saying that Dave 2 is many years away UNLESS major essential parts become unavailable and so they will not be able to build Dave 1. I guess this eventuality is unlikely.
  
 His later reply to you reinforces this by saying they have got other more important fish to fry (Davina and amplifiers) other than thinking about a Dave 2.


----------



## EVOLVIST

triode user said:


> EVOLVIST, I think it is a 'watch his lips' moment. Rob is saying that Dave 2 is many years away UNLESS major essential parts become unavailable and so they will not be able to build Dave 1. I guess this eventuality is unlikely.
> 
> His later reply to you reinforces this by saying they have got other more important fish to fry (Davina and amplifiers) other than thinking about a Dave 2.


 
  
 Right, I get that. Only I'm thinking a.) major essential parts becoming unavailable implies, to me, that essential parts for future technology are already in hand, otherwise we wouldn't have the Blu2, and b.) again, how much can the ear hear within the confines of the millions of recordings that we have right now?
  
 I've said it myself, that the DAVE is the hub by which a lot of Chord's newest technology is based around. So, the conversation isn't really about a DAVE 2. I could care less about DAVE 2.
  
 See, when the DAVE was released, it was already said by Chord that the BNC inputs, as well as the DX outputs were for future Chord products. This tells me that Chord, like any other product-based company, has a roadmap. With a roadmap, more often than not (for instance, I've seen many roadmaps from IT and software companies), it's not based upon wishful thinking; it is based upon technology that has already reached some stage of development, and it's only a matter of time (roadmap) before the product hits the streets.
  
 Now, that doesn't mean that a roadmap isn't flexible, and that pleasant surprises can't happen a long the way (or even disasters); still, these IOs for the DAVE were planned for the Blu2 (and maybe to some degree the Davina) and a line of Class A "digital amps," depending on how many watts you need to drive your speakers. This is good forethought by a group of savvy businessmen.
  
 To that end, though, it would take a lot to convince me that 1m taps was a happy accident. Yeah, sure I buy that Chord developers are often surprised by how good their product actually is. I mean, you can't hear the sonic benefits, or a lack thereof, until you actually build it. Nevertheless, again, like savvy businessmen, there's no way that Chord is going to show all of their cards on a message board. 1million taps was a reality in November 2016.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Addendum: I do want to say how much I am pleased with Chord, and I have never felt that they have been pushy toward their client-base. In fact, John and Rob have consistently gone out of their way to explain things, above and beyond what most providers do. So, I'm not in any way insinuating that the folks at Chord are pulling the wool. I merely think that they are letting us know what is in their best interest, as a business, to let us know.


----------



## jlbrach

evolvist said:


> Right, I get that. Only I'm thinking a.) major essential parts becoming unavailable implies, to me, that essential parts for future technology are already in hand, otherwise we wouldn't have the Blu2, and b.) again, how much can the ear hear within the confines of the millions of recordings that we have right now?
> 
> I've said it myself, that the DAVE is the hub by which a lot of Chord's newest technology is based around. So, the conversation isn't really about a DAVE 2. I could care less about DAVE 2.
> 
> ...


 
 Here is my question going forward.I own a Dave and absolutely love it...best investment I have made in this crazy obsessive hobby we all share.I am however in my 50's and recognize that hearing like everything else degrades over time...faster for those who abused it over the years but degrade it does for everyone....Lets assume that Blu 2 improves the performance of the dave by a couple of %.....actual real improvement to be sure but will I be able to perceive it and future marginal improvements as i age?....I ask this question in a generic way because we all face the same issues.Also,when comparing components that are all top of the line how much does the hearing prowess of individuals reviewing the products as well as consumers listening to them enter into the debate?...just food for thought..we can design cars that drive 250 MPH but what is the point if the speed limit is 65?


----------



## TheAttorney

Hi jibrach, I think you are over-worrying this getting old thing. Apart from anything else, there's not a huge amount you can do about it, so enjoy what you have.
  
 The last time I checked, my hearing tailed off beyond 12Khz, but quite recently I'm pretty sure I could tell which direction my ethernet cable was connected. And could tell the difference between my KE washing machine pads under my DAVE and my recently acquired Black Ravioli pads (as recommended by romaz, and more about that in due course). And whether my laptop source was running on battery or mains. Etc, etc.
  
 So I'm pretty sure you or I will be able to very obviously notice the difference a Blu 2 will make.
 Now, if you went to too many loud concerts and now you're as deaf as post, then maybe nothing can help you. But if you can still appreciate Dave at this point, then I'm pretty sure there is still some way to go yet.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jlbrach said:


> Also,when comparing components that are all top of the line how much does the hearing prowess of individuals reviewing the products as well as consumers listening to them enter into the debate?...just food for thought..we can design cars that drive 250 MPH but what is the point if the speed limit is 65?




Heh. We're hard-hitters today. I've asked myself the same question, because what's more, how old is Rob? How's your hearing, Rob Watts ?It must be pretty good to come out with the DAVE. On the other hand, is peer review conducted within the Chord house on all products? 

Hey, I'm 43, I'm not as old as you, Jon, but I have a touch of the tinnitus. It's not much. I don't even hear it most of the time, but it's ever so slightly there. I even read an article recently that gave a list of famous musicians from all genres who have tinnitus and/or hearing loss to some degree, and some of these cats are young! Like in their 20s young.

These days I protect my ears, and honestly this is one of the reasons I'm no longer listening to cans. There. I said it. 

So, yeah, I wonder about many of the same things that you do; I'm sure many of us in here do. I know there are some golden ears in here, but I'm not one of them. I'm lucky to hear up to 16kHz. With bass I can hear much, much lower, though, even beyond the point where my 13-year old son can't hear it. 

I guess the only way to really know is by auditioning the product to see if you can hear the difference. If you can't, well, enjoy what you have, right?


----------



## jlbrach

theattorney said:


> Hi jibrach, I think you are over-worrying this getting old thing. Apart from anything else, there's not a huge amount you can do about it, so enjoy what you have.
> 
> The last time I checked, my hearing tailed off beyond 12Khz, but quite recently I'm pretty sure I could tell which direction my ethernet cable was connected. And could tell the difference between my KE washing machine pads under my DAVE and my recently acquired Black Ravioli pads (as recommended by romaz, and more about that in due course). And whether my laptop source was running on battery or mains. Etc, etc.
> 
> ...


 
 I am not over worrying at all just posing a question and facing up to the inevitable.I do have a touch of tinnitus in my left ear and i have been wearing hearing protection for the last 15 years when I go to concerts.I do not listen at very loud levels when I listen to my HP's and i am pretty much the opposite of my friend Evolvist in that I have been listening to my home stereo pretty much exclusively until the past couple of years when I got into HP's and now I find the convenience of the HP's to be addicting as well as the fact that living in an apartment building doesnt allow me to use my Loudspeakers to their potential all that often.My point is essentially this in a nutshell.....if we are all chasing the last 2% with different cables and power chords etc. ,wouldnt it be a kick in the head if in fact our hearing doesnt really allow us to hear anything more than we already do no matter the new advances in equipment......that doesnt mean that different HP's or equipment will not have different sound signatures...an LCD-4 sounds very different than a Utopia...that said it is a subjective difference not an objective one


----------



## Deftone

jlbrach said:


> Here is my question going forward.I own a Dave and absolutely love it...best investment I have made in this crazy obsessive hobby we all share.I am however in my 50's and recognize that hearing like everything else degrades over time...faster for those who abused it over the years but degrade it does for everyone....Lets assume that Blu 2 improves the performance of the dave by a couple of %.....actual real improvement to be sure but will I be able to perceive it and future marginal improvements as i age?....I ask this question in a generic way because we all face the same issues.Also,when comparing components that are all top of the line how much does the hearing prowess of individuals reviewing the products as well as consumers listening to them enter into the debate?...just food for thought..we can design cars that drive 250 MPH but what is the point if the speed limit is 65?


 
  
 Good question, as 26 year old that goes to live metal gigs occasionally i have started to think about using some sort of hearing protection for live events and protecting my ears for future listening. i did a test and i can hear up to 17.5Khz so that seems good for my age and i want to keep it that way. It is interesting in what age do these differences with gear start to become unoticable.


----------



## x RELIC x

Well, primary frequency response isn't the only measure of audio. What about timing/transients/timbre/depth etc.. These are areas that are most prevelant from the DAC and very important under ~11kHz as well as above. So, if worrying about high frequency loss consider that above ~11kHz represents only one octave of the 22Hz-22kHz audio spectrum. That leaves 9/10 octaves within 22Hz-22kHz that is still heard.... not bad. 

Don't worry about it.


----------



## EVOLVIST

x relic x said:


> Well, primary frequency response isn't the only measure of audio. What about timing/transients/timbre/depth etc...




This is why I would like to be a Chord lab rat for a day. I would like to hear all of screwed up stuff in a controlled setting as it's adjusted to sound good, and then better, and better... 

That's why I wonder if anyone else at Chord backs up Rob's findings. Like, "No, I don't hear what you're hearing, Rob." or "Man, this sounds too good to be true!"

Of course a magician never gives away the secrets to all of his tricks. With all of explaining that John and Rob have done, I'm sure they aren't giving out all of the secret sauce. Eye of newt. A dead cat's paw. Some hair from an insane woman (THAT should be easy to come by). You know, the usual.


----------



## 514077

x relic x said:


> Well, primary frequency response isn't the only measure of audio. What about timing/transients/timbre/depth etc.. These are areas that are most prevelant from the DAC and very important under ~11kHz as well as above. So, if worrying about high frequency loss consider that above ~11kHz represents only one octave of the 22Hz-22kHz audio spectrum. That leaves 9/10 octaves within 22Hz-22kHz that is still heard.... not bad.
> 
> Don't worry about it.


 
 I got the same idea about hearing from the Hans Beekhuisen video about MQA.  All those high freqs don't matter as much timing and sample rate.  So I'm going to indulge my audio habbit till I'm ancient.


----------



## romaz

jlbrach said:


> Here is my question going forward.I own a Dave and absolutely love it...best investment I have made in this crazy obsessive hobby we all share.I am however in my 50's and recognize that hearing like everything else degrades over time...faster for those who abused it over the years but degrade it does for everyone....Lets assume that Blu 2 improves the performance of the dave by a couple of %.....actual real improvement to be sure but will I be able to perceive it and future marginal improvements as i age?....I ask this question in a generic way because we all face the same issues.Also,when comparing components that are all top of the line how much does the hearing prowess of individuals reviewing the products as well as consumers listening to them enter into the debate?...just food for thought..we can design cars that drive 250 MPH but what is the point if the speed limit is 65?




Here's another way to look at it. If your ears can appreciate the magnitude of difference between the original Hugo and DAVE and you find the magnitude of difference to be worth the price that you paid for your DAVE vs Hugo, then I believe you will have no trouble appreciating what Blu2 will add to your DAVE.


----------



## archeryc

Thinking of upgrade my power cable of Dave, any recommendation?


----------



## rgs9200m

After lots of experiments, I used Shunyata power cables on every CD player or DAC I ever owned and found they were the best.
 Clear without shrillness or hardness. I am very fond of the old Anaconda series, especially the Anaconda VX (but the Anaconda Alpha is also really good).
 The VX was meant just for digital and it works. You can get them used (audoigon, etc.).
 I can't speak for the Dave though, and my TT has no power cord, just the wall wart.


----------



## rkt31

@archeryc, check furutech website. look for bulk power cable and it's tech on the website. the technology used in furutech bulk power cable is far far advance than any readymade branded cable. there must be dealers who would make a power cord for you with high quality furutech connectors as per your order. Dave will not require very thick gauge cable due to it's less power demand . so a 1.5m furutech cord made from bulk cable , costing around $400 or so may beat even the most expensive power cords. there is no hidden fact that in any cable the most important factor is the purity of metal and geometry of crystals for which furutech is the leader. in fact many high end brands use furutech bulk cable.


----------



## Triode User

archeryc said:


> Thinking of upgrade my power cable of Dave, any recommendation?


 

 Work out how much money you can afford, add 50% to the amount and then go and buy a power cable for that much. Make sure it has a big and unwieldy plug on the Dave end and make sure the cable incorporates exotic technology and materials. It also helps if the cable is covered in a sheath that makes it ridiculously stiff and almost unusable.
  
 All of that is essential to increase the expectation bias sufficiently and to allow the power cable to extract the maximum amount of musicality from the untainted electricity that streams from the magic socket on the wall.
  
 Either that or get real and realise that the last 1m of power cable plugged into the Dave will not make a blind bit of difference bearing in mind that the electricity has already come several hundred yards on the street through perfectly standard copper cable and then through very cheap copper cable buried in the walls of your house.
  
 Oh and no need to respond. We don't want a cable discussion to start in the Dave thread. I'm just having fun at your expense.


----------



## GryphonGuy

"...the last 1m of power cable plugged into the Dave will not make a blind bit of difference..."

Oh how I wish that were true. It would be a much cheaper hobby that way.

Regards
GG


----------



## m0nster

gryphonguy said:


> "...the last 1m of power cable plugged into the Dave will not make a blind bit of difference..."
> 
> Oh how I wish that were true. It would be a much cheaper hobby that way.
> 
> ...




Isn't a hobby as expensive as you wish it to be? As I see it you get a lot of musical enjoyment with the DAVE, great headphones and regular cables (power and USB). That's the point where I chose to stop spending for the moment. And I am happy with it.

Now waiting to see what Rob is cooking up. But even if the difference is bigger than anyone expected, it's still a hobby. And if you enjoy the music today, you shouldn't enjoy it less tomorrow just because there are ways to make it even better.

Btw, trying to persuade myself too here


----------



## jelt2359

archeryc said:


> Thinking of upgrade my power cable of Dave, any recommendation?


 
 I really like Grover's Empress power cords if you like a smooth balanced sound with good separation at not too much coin. Just went to a friend where he put his on his amp, I put mine on the Dave, and it sounded so incredible we're both thinking of getting more now. Ha.


----------



## hafaxx

Hi, I’ve got another question about the DAVE.
 As music server and streamer I use an Aurender W20, which as a special feature has a dualwiring output over AES / EBU. Since the DAVE operates in dual data mode via its BNC inputs, my question is whether it is possible to connect these two devices via a corresponding cable/adapter in dualwiring or are there problems due to the different wave impedance of AES / EBU (110 Ohm) and SPDIF (75 Ohm). In addition, would it be interesting to see whether this type of cabling is associated with a quality gain compared to singlewiring variants?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

archeryc said:


> Thinking of upgrade my power cable of Dave, any recommendation?




I am a fan of Audience Au24 series cables for their musicality but not the lesser models which deliver lower power for disc players and Dacs. Something is lost there and so I think full blown cable is the only one To go for. 'musicality' is what I am looking for from a power cable. If it doesnt excel in musicality then I don't care what else it does. 

A significantly cheaper alternative worth auditioning imo is the Isotek Evo3 Optimum cable. I think it represents good value considering the cost of some cables.


----------



## esimms86

High Fidelity Cables are pricey but excellent. They can be picked up for less money at Audiogon and their lower priced Reveal line of cables can be purchased new from HFC.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

archeryc said:


> Thinking of upgrade my power cable of Dave, any recommendation?


 
  
 I would agree with High Fidelity Cables.  Of the limited selection I've tried they are the only ones that I could hear an appreciable difference with.


----------



## Crgreen

Just downloaded the latest TAS which contains a show report from CES. So far as I can tell, not a single mention of any Chord product. It's difficult to resist the inference that hi-fi politics is at play here. A great pity.


----------



## romaz

crgreen said:


> Just downloaded the latest TAS which contains a show report from CES. So far as I can tell, not a single mention of any Chord product. It's difficult to resist the inference that hi-fi politics is at play here. A great pity.


 
  
 From what I recall Rob saying, none of the journalists at CES got to _actually_ hear Blu Mk 2 + DAVE, which is a shame.  Since Hugo 2 was featured only with headphones in the Chord suite, it probably flew under TAS' radar.  Same thing with Poly.
  
 Nonetheless, I agree with you.  Robert Harley's penchant towards Berkeley DACs has been evident for some time.  It's unclear to me if he's actually heard the Chord DAVE and I think that may be more the issue, I don't think many American journalists have spent quality time with the DAVE.  In Stereophile's Recommended DACs for 2016 (the 2017 list has not been published yet), for example, the Hugo TT made the list but DAVE did not.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

It has to be politics because they only have to look at the specs of Dave over Hugo TT to know the outcome. They loved the TT as I recall.


----------



## Crgreen

romaz said:


> From what I recall Rob saying, none of the journalists at CES got to _actually_ hear Blu Mk 2 + DAVE, which is a shame.


 
  
 Really? Don't they have a pre-show period for journalists, or don't journalists listen with the rest of the public during the show? You'd have thought at least one journalist would want to listen to Chord's flagship product. Sounds might odd to me, especially at something like CES.


----------



## 7ryder

crgreen said:


> Really? Don't they have a pre-show period for journalists, or don't journalists listen with the rest of the public during the show? You'd have thought at least one journalist would want to listen to Chord's flagship product. Sounds might odd to me, especially at something like CES.


 
 CES isn't really considered much of an "audio" show anymore. From what I've been reading, audio journalists are more focused on the Berlin show as the BIG show.


----------



## Crgreen

But enough of an audio show for Chord and many others to turn up and for TAS to give it several pages of coverage.


----------



## yamuling

Kubala Sosna is very suitable for DAVE.


----------



## rgs9200m

Kubala Sosna is very very good for interconnects; I owned them (about 10 years back though, top of the line). But Stealth Indra was clearly the best (and Sakra even a little better, but Indra provides the Stealth magic).
 The Stealth just gets to the heart of the sound, with astonishing speed and precision with something just eerily real about them.
  
 For Power cables, I have always liked Shunyatas as the best (for 17 years now).
  
 I did a lot of A/B testing, and the Stealth/Shunyata cable combination seemed to create the best synergy.


----------



## jlbrach

sipping some woodford reserve my favorite bourbon and listening to U2 on my Utopia's and my Dave...I was supposed to go out tonight to a jazz club with my girlfriend but it is freezing here in NYC so my girlfriend persuaded me to stay in.....not a bad way to make up for missing the jazz


----------



## lovethatsound

jlbrach said:


> sipping some woodford reserve my favorite bourbon and listening to U2 on my Utopia's and my Dave...I was supposed to go out tonight to a jazz club with my girlfriend but it is freezing here in NYC so my girlfriend persuaded me to stay in.....not a bad way to make up for missing the jazz


So what are your impressions of the utopia with the Dave?


----------



## Crgreen

And what are your girlfriend's impressions of you spending Saturday night listening to music on headphones?


----------



## EVOLVIST

That's weird, because everything I've read about the Blu2 has come out of CES or that show in Japan. There's really not much out there to begin with.


----------



## miketlse

jlbrach said:


> sipping some woodford reserve my favorite bourbon and listening to U2 on my Utopia's and my Dave...I was supposed to go out tonight to a jazz club with my girlfriend but it is freezing here in NYC so my girlfriend persuaded me to stay in.....not a bad way to make up for missing the jazz


 
 Risky leaving your headphones on, whilst she is talking.


----------



## jlbrach

crgreen said:


> And what are your girlfriend's impressions of you spending Saturday night listening to music on headphones?


 
 the utopia with dave is wonderful and my girlfriend was to blame for our staying in given that she decided it was too cold to venture out to the jazzclub!......


----------



## Crgreen

jlbrach said:


> the utopia with dave is wonderful and my girlfriend was to blame for our staying in given that she decided it was too cold to venture out to the jazzclub!......




I don't think you realise: your girlfriend can never be to in the wrong...ever. It's always your fault. Grasp that and life will be easier


----------



## miketlse

jlbrach said:


> the utopia with dave is wonderful and my girlfriend was to blame for our staying in given that she decided it was too cold to venture out to the jazzclub!......


 
  
 Your girlfriend, and your headphones, sound like keepers.


----------



## romaz

crgreen said:


> Really? Don't they have a pre-show period for journalists, or don't journalists listen with the rest of the public during the show? You'd have thought at least one journalist would want to listen to Chord's flagship product. Sounds might odd to me, especially at something like CES.


 
  
 Yes, the pre-show for journalists occurs on Thursday, the first day of CES.  I arrived on Friday, the day after, and yet Rob had indicated on his post that I was the first one to get to hear Blu2 (along with a Japanese gentleman who was also there with me).  Having read several journalists' impressions of their time in the Chord room, they all heard Rob's lecture on Thursday but none commented on hearing Blu2.  Furthermore, Blu2 was inconspicuously tucked away in a side room for the entire show and not featured in the main room of the suite.


----------



## romaz

yamuling said:


> Kubala Sosna is very suitable for DAVE.


 
  
 I am a big fan as well.  While DAVE is largely immune to the USB cable that connects to it (even cheap $5 USB cables sound excellent), you can discern some differences among a few that really stand out but unfortunately, you have to spend a lot of money to achieve it.  For example, my current reference, the Clarity Cables Natural USB is a definite step up from my previous reference, the Curious USB with respect to a bigger and more airy soundstage but the Kubala Sosna USB is even better.  The problem is the Kubala Sosna Realization USB cable is $3,500 USD and I didn't find the slight improvement over the Clarity Cables to be worth the extra money.


----------



## jlbrach

crgreen said:


> I don't think you realise: your girlfriend can never be to in the wrong...ever. It's always your fault. Grasp that and life will be easier


 
 as a divorced guy I have decided to proceed assuming she is always right and i am always wrong..it is much easier that way to be sure!


----------



## yamuling

Thx. But the Kubala Sosna I mentioned was the power cable   For USB I chose the Entreq Apollo.


----------



## Crgreen

romaz said:


> Blu2 was inconspicuously tucked away in a side room for the entire show and not featured in the main room of the suite.




I suppose that would make it easy to miss.


----------



## Light - Man

crgreen said:


> I suppose that would make it easy to miss.


 
  
 Maybe it is really really ugly or is so expensive that they are afraid to mention the price if anyone asked?


----------



## yellowblue

Exciting times - which will be the best device to feed the Dave?
  
SOtM smS-200 Ultra or MicroRendu with Iso Regen?
  
You can read some fresh information about the upcoming Iso Regen here:
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/iso-regen-31769/ (after post #24)


----------



## EVOLVIST

yellowblue said:


> Exciting times - which will be the best device to feed the Dave?
> 
> [COLOR=3E3E3E]SOtM smS-200 Ultra or MicroRendu with Iso Regen?[/COLOR]
> 
> ...




Leaving no pocket unturned, I see. That the DAVE is already galvanically isolated, I'm not sure of the benefits of the Iso Regen, but I will read on since I love my mRendu so much.


----------



## yellowblue

Alex from Uptone audio got the same question about the benefits of the Iso Regen beyond the galvanic isolation and he answered:
  
_The enhancements to the REGEN (which sonically are more significant than the galvanic isolation which took a frustratingly long time to make work right) are what benefit the microRendu--and every other device.

I've been listening to my microRendu feeding the ISO REGEN (version of the board with and without the Silanna isolator chip) for a while now, and it sounds fantastic. 

The combination of the great signal integrity USB 3.0 hub chip we chose (which lmitche and Jud separately picked blind from very early beta units last summer), the ultra-low-phase noise Crystek 575 clock, the e beefing up and separating of the power networks, and the 5(!) separate ultra-ultra-low-noise LT3042 regulators--those are the things that really contribute to the leap ahead of the ISO REGEN.

And some of the above--especially the clock--are why ISO REGEN is of benefit to even the hub-chipped "regen" output of the microRendu._
  
  
 That sounds promising to me, even if the smS-200 Ultra has the better clock.


----------



## Silvertone4

Audio Sync Problems with DAVE.

I've been auditioning the DAVE at home this weekend in my two channel rig, I'm pretty happy with the DACs sound, one of the best DACs I've heard on my rig at any price.

However, I can't get over the sync problems when I switch over to my TV input. The audio sync delay is pretty bad when using PCM+ , when switching to DSD+ the delay is much better, not completely solved but at least video is watchable.

Questions/Suggestions for a DAVE software update:

Can each input preserve its individual settings when it comes to HF Filter On/Off, DSD+, PCM+, etc?
Having to 'reboot' the DAVE and wait 20 seconds every time I want to switch between music listening and tv watching is deal breaker for me. To make things worst this task cannot be done from the remote control either.

As I mentioned above, DSD+ processing aliviates the problem for the most part but it doesn't fix it 100%. Can there be a third option which minimizes processing further for video watching? You can call it Video+. 

And lastly, can the inputs that are not in use be disabled invidually? This way you don't have to scroll through all the options until you reach the input you need.

Most competitors at this price range have each of these requests implemented in some form. For example, the Ayre QX5 DAC has a 'Video' mode on their dac that minimizes processing in their fpga to prevent audio delays. You can also disable digital inputs on that DAC so you don't have to scroll through all input options when in use.

On a different note, I'm finding that the HF Filter ON/OFF setting makes a clear audible difference even with 44khz material. When I turn on the filter the sound is smoother, midrange has better presence, and to my ears the noise floor is lower. I have thrown all sorts of material at the DAVE over the weekend and every time I preferred the less fatiguing sound with the HF filter ON. 

ST


----------



## Crgreen

Interesting:

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/highresaudio-to-stop-offering-mqa/?utm_source=Default+Hi-Fi%2B+List&utm_campaign=4dc42b8f8f-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_03_14&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ff6dfd0295-4dc42b8f8f-162412873


----------



## Triode User

crgreen said:


> Interesting:
> 
> http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/highresaudio-to-stop-offering-mqa/?utm_source=Default+Hi-Fi%2B+List&utm_campaign=4dc42b8f8f-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_03_14&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ff6dfd0295-4dc42b8f8f-162412873


 

 old news


----------



## SeaWo|f

Yea, shocking content providers and hardware vendors are starting to drop the latest in a long line of expensive proprietary standard.


----------



## Crgreen

Apologies. I've only just read it but didn't realise I was in a minority of one.


----------



## esimms86

See post#103 from jelt2359 re: Blu2:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/839662/canjam-singapore-2017-march-11-12-2017-impressions-thread/90
  
  
  
 pic posted by @tassardar in the same thread


----------



## Jawed

silvertone4 said:


> Audio Sync Problems with DAVE.
> 
> I've been auditioning the DAVE at home this weekend in my two channel rig, I'm pretty happy with the DACs sound, one of the best DACs I've heard on my rig at any price.
> 
> However, I can't get over the sync problems when I switch over to my TV input. The audio sync delay is pretty bad when using PCM+ , when switching to DSD+ the delay is much better, not completely solved but at least video is watchable.



If you are playing video from a computer you can either give your media player a negative time offset of 106 milliseconds (i.e. audio is ahead of video) in PCM+ mode; 53ms in DSD+ mode.

Or, you can set your operating system or media player to upsample to 768Khz. DAVE won't then have much, if any, delay. Even upsampling to 384Khz will substantially reduce the delay.

I don't know of any options when not using a computer for video playback.

Now playing: Jack - Dress You in Mourning


----------



## Silvertone4

jawed said:


> If you are playing video from a computer you can either give your media player a negative time offset of 106 milliseconds (i.e. audio is ahead of video) in PCM+ mode; 53ms in DSD+ mode.
> 
> Or, you can set your operating system or media player to upsample to 768Khz. DAVE won't then have much, if any, delay. Even upsampling to 384Khz will substantially reduce the delay.
> 
> ...






Thanks for the pointers, this is for the input from my Sony Bravia.

Not sure if Rob Watts still checks in with this thread, I'd think this can easily be addressed through a software update. Otherwise the only solution would be to purchase a separate DAC dedicated for video playback and run it through my preamp, definitely a deal breaker for me. I'm surprised that not a lot of people are complaining about this.

By the way I see the DAVE is listed in the 'K' category on the latest issue of Stereophile, usually that indicates a formal review is in the works.



ST


----------



## icebear

silvertone4 said:


> Thanks for the pointers, this is for the input from my *Sony Bravia.*
> ... I'm surprised that not a lot of people are complaining about this.
> ...
> ST


 
 Maybe in this section of the forum not a lot of people use a TV as source ... just a thought


----------



## 514077

crgreen said:


> Apologies. I've only just read it but didn't realise I was in a minority of one.


 
 You're not.  Thanks for the article.  I hadn't read it, before.  Just seems to prove what others have been saying.


----------



## ecwl

silvertone4 said:


> Thanks for the pointers, this is for the input from my *Sony Bravia.*
> ... I'm surprised that not a lot of people are complaining about this.
> ...
> ST


 
 I do watch TV with my Chord DAVE. Always. But all my video signals route through my Oppo BDP-103 Blu-ray player. Because my cable signal from the PVR box is 1080i/720p and I felt the Oppo upsampling is better so I let it do the upsampling to 1080p first before sending the signal to my Panasonic plasma TV. The point is that Oppo has an audio delay option so with a proper calibration Blu-ray, I just change the audio delay so that DAVE syncs well with the video signal.


----------



## GryphonGuy

ecwl said:


> I do watch TV with my Chord DAVE. Always. But all my video signals route through my Oppo BDP-103 Blu-ray player. Because my cable signal from the PVR box is 1080i/720p and I felt the Oppo upsampling is better so I let it do the upsampling to 1080p first before sending the signal to my Panasonic plasma TV. The point is that Oppo has an audio delay option so with a proper calibration Blu-ray, I just change the audio delay so that DAVE syncs well with the video signal.


 

 ​At CanJam Rob Watts asked me if I used my DAVE to listen to the TV. I said "No". He urged me to at least try it as he was of the opinion that it would change my listening habits for TV. Since my Astro satellite TV box has an optical out port I might try it one night when I am not listening to music. It might help me to reconnect with Astro even with all the repeat programs and self-advertising they do ever so relentlessly.
  
 GG


----------



## ecwl

gryphonguy said:


> ​At CanJam Rob Watts asked me if I used my DAVE to listen to the TV. I said "No". He urged me to at least try it as he was of the opinion that it would change my listening habits for TV. Since my Astro satellite TV box has an optical out port I might try it one night when I am not listening to music. It might help me to reconnect with Astro even with all the repeat programs and self-advertising they do ever so relentlessly.
> 
> GG




Great idea. But you need to watch out as some of these TV boxes only put out Dolby Digital 5.1 audio through their Toslink connection and you can't force them to put out 2-channel PCM for Chord DAVE. This is why I use the Oppo too because my TV box would send the 5.1 Dolby Digital audio to the Oppo player via HDMI and the Oppo would downconvert it to 2-channel PCM to be fed Toslink into DAVE. I guess worse case scenario, you won't get sound with the 5.1 Dolby Toslink signal. Just make sure you turned the volume down first before trying it out.


----------



## Silvertone4

Did you mean video delay? the audio stream is the one lagging behind because of all the processing


----------



## Silvertone4

ecwl said:


> I do watch TV with my Chord DAVE. Always. But all my video signals route through my Oppo BDP-103 Blu-ray player. Because my cable signal from the PVR box is 1080i/720p and I felt the Oppo upsampling is better so I let it do the upsampling to 1080p first before sending the signal to my Panasonic plasma TV. The point is that Oppo has an audio delay option so with a proper calibration Blu-ray, I just change the audio delay so that DAVE syncs well with the video signal.





Did you mean video delay option? the audio stream is the one lagging behind because of all the processing


----------



## ecwl

silvertone4 said:


> Did you mean video delay option? the audio stream is the one lagging behind because of all the processing


 
 On the Oppo BDP-103, the function is called A/V Sync. You can set by 10ms steps within a range of -100ms to +200ms. The manual says because of the additional video processing from the Oppo, there is already an automatic audio delay applied to optimize A/V sync. So if you set the system to a negative value, it would reduce the automatic audio delay. Whereas if you set the audio to a positive value, I presume it'll be the video that's delayed. If the HDMI IN option is used (which is what I use for my cable TV box), only positive adjustments are useable meaning that only video is delayed which is what you said.


----------



## gnomen

gryphonguy said:


> ​At CanJam Rob Watts asked me if I used my DAVE to listen to the TV. I said "No". He urged me to at least try it as he was of the opinion that it would change my listening habits for TV. Since my Astro satellite TV box has an optical out port I might try it one night when I am not listening to music. It might help me to reconnect with Astro even with all the repeat programs and self-advertising they do ever so relentlessly.
> 
> GG


 

 I listent to TV via my Hugo TT and would strongly recommend it to anyone who owns a Chord DAC.  The beauty of Chord DACs is they do a great job with modest sources: TV programs, films, musical programs, bargain CDs, they all come out sounding better than anyone has a right to expect.  The BBC had a wonderful series of programs on Leonard Cohen last year and, of course, regular broadcasts from the Prom concerts.  Right now they have the excellent Opera North performances of Wagner's Ring available on catch-up.  All of this comes through with very listenable and enjoyable quality -- nothing to make you cringe.  The improvement in voices, frequency range, depth, is quite amazing all considered, and makes the viewing experience much more immersive - even for programs like Poldark, The Halcyon or SS-GB.
  
 Regarding lip syc:  In my case I connect the BT Youview box directly to the DAC via optical (and likewise my Sony BDP via BNC coax) so the audio and video arrive via different routes.  The advantage is anyone can just watch TV without the hi-fi  e.g. for quick viewing, and there is one less set of connections and cables in the signal path. At first I needed some sync adjustment for speech.  Both my TV (a Philips large screen LCD) and the BT box (a Humax) have an adjustment buried in the settings which work like the Oppo one described by ecwl.   I used the one on the BT box so as not to upset the Sony BDP, which fortunately has always been fine.  With the latest BT box however I find no adjustment is necessary either.  Most like the video processing and the audio processing times are near enough coincident.  I do hope the OP finds a sync adjustment buried in one of his menus and gets to enjoy the experience.


----------



## dguitarnut

I just got my Dave!
The manual says to turn on amp/preamp first. I would like to leave Dave on all the time and turn off amp/preamp when I'm not listening. Anyone have problems happen?
I did search and could not find an answer.


----------



## Triode User

dguitarnut said:


> I just got my Dave!
> The manual says to turn on amp/preamp first. I would like to leave Dave on all the time and turn off amp/preamp when I'm not listening. Anyone have problems happen?
> I did search and could not find an answer.


 

 I leave my Dave on 24/7 and only turn on the amps when I listen to music. No issues encountered at all.


----------



## x RELIC x

dguitarnut said:


> I just got my Dave!
> The manual says to turn on amp/preamp first. I would like to leave Dave on all the time and turn off amp/preamp when I'm not listening. Anyone have problems happen?
> I did search and could not find an answer.




Dear lord, read the manual again. It says you _must_ turn on *DAVE first* before you turn on your amp/preamp.



> *WARNING*​
> _YOU MUST SWTICH DAVE ON FIRST BEFORE ANY PREAMPLIFIER OR POWER AMPLIFIER. FAILURE TO DO THIS COULD RESULT IN YOUR EQUIPMENT ENTERING PROTECTION MODE OR DAMAGE._





Congrats on the new DAVE!


----------



## dguitarnut

Dear lord read my post before being offensive. I said what the manual said...
But I wanted opinions of folks who didn't follow the manual recommendations.


----------



## dguitarnut

triode user said:


> I leave my Dave on 24/7 and only turn on the amps when I listen to music. No issues encountered at all.




Thanks for the reply I wanted.
Larry


----------



## x RELIC x

dguitarnut said:


> Dear lord read my post before being offensive. I said what the manual said...
> But I wanted opinions of folks who didn't follow the manual recommendations.




Offensive? Really? Just want to make sure you get the right order. I did read your post and you've got it backward based on what you wrote, and what I quoted.



dguitarnut said:


> ... The manual says to turn on amp/preamp first...




I copied the text in my previous post straight from the manual, and have also read my DAVE manual. Unfortunately you did not say what the manual says

Dave first, then amp/preamp is what you want. What you want to do by leaving the DAVE on is fine.

No need to be _defensive_. Good luck.


----------



## jelt2359

dguitarnut said:


> I just got my Dave!
> The manual says to turn on amp/preamp first. I would like to leave Dave on all the time and turn off amp/preamp when I'm not listening. Anyone have problems happen?
> I did search and could not find an answer.


 
 In general, you want to turn the items further back in the chain on first. So source first, then dac, then preamp, then power amp, and when it's all on then you connect to your speakers or in my case headphones.
  
 When you turn them off, do the opposite. So power amp goes off first, then preamp, then dac, and finally source.


----------



## dguitarnut

This is why I don't post much in this forum. I can't even ask a simple question without some obnoxious old relic insulting you.
I upgraded from the Yggdrasil which I left on for 2 years without regards to the order of turning on or off the amp/preamp therefore the question. Odd that all other responders understood the question and gave me a civil answer


----------



## JaZZ

dguitarnut said:


> This is why I don't post much in this forum. I can't even ask a simple question without some obnoxious old relic insulting you.
> I upgraded from the Yggdrasil which I left on for 2 years without regards to the order of turning on or off the amp/preamp therefore the question. Odd that all other responders understood the question and gave me a civil answer


 
  
 Where's his insult? You must be really thin-skinned. This after your catastrophically wrong advice which he thankfully corrected immediately.


----------



## dguitarnut

I was about to post my impressions on my new Dave. My previous Dac was a Schitt Yggdrasil which kept me happy for the last 2 or 3 years having replaced my Ps Audio PWD2.
I was having the upgrade itch and really didn't know what to expect in my testing as I had been satisfied with my Yggdrasil. First I tried out the Lampizator Atlantic and couldn't discern a clear victor. Then I tried the Dave and it was quite different in my system bringing out and separating instruments and vocals. Being a Beatle and Stones lover their recordings just never sounded as good as today's offerings so I didn't listen to them very often. Enter the Dave and wow all the stuff I love sounded a level or 2 better. I resisted till I listened to the new Ayre Qx5 Twenty and although its resolution was better than my Yggdrasil it couldn't erase my memory of the Daves 3D presentation and when the price dropped I snapped one up.
In my hours of A/B the impressions what I conclude is that maybe midrange is pulled back a hair allowing vocals or lead instruments to shine a bit more. A little more contrast or dynamic range in performances. But I can't sense anything lacking in that midrange.....maybe just not as intrusive.
The Dave and the Yggdrasil are the two most lusted after Dacs around And for good reasons on this forum.
I should have had Relic proofread this post first....


----------



## dguitarnut

jazz said:


> Where's his insult? You must be really thin-skinned. This after your catastrophically wrong advice which he thankfully corrected immediately. :rolleyes:




I gave advice? When? Bless your heart.


----------



## dguitarnut

Oops! I quoted Chord Dave's instructions wrong. Pie in the face for me.
My sincere apologies to all and specially to Relic.


----------



## TheAttorney

Whilst on the subject of turning Dave on/off, I heard an unpleasant spike when turning off Dave whilst still wearing the headphones - not so loud as to damage headphone or ears, but gave me a jolt the first time it happened. This when Dave's volume was set to around -30db. When I retried with volume muted it didn't help. 
  
 This only happens at power switch off. No problems at all with power on (which has a soft start) or standby on or off.
 Not a big deal really, but I'd rather it didn't happen at all.
 I usually lave Dave on 24/7 or sometimes go into Standby, but I do like to switch it off if I'm away for several days.


----------



## astrostar59

theattorney said:


> Whilst on the subject of turning Dave on/off, I heard an unpleasant spike when turning off Dave whilst still wearing the headphones - not so loud as to damage headphone or ears, but gave me a jolt the first time it happened. This when Dave's volume was set to around -30db. When I retried with volume muted it didn't help.
> 
> This only happens at power switch off. No problems at all with power on (which has a soft start) or standby on or off.
> Not a big deal really, but I'd rather it didn't happen at all.
> I usually lave Dave on 24/7 or sometimes go into Standby, but I do like to switch it off if I'm away for several days.


 

 My DAC manual says switch on the source first, then amplifier last, and in reverse at switch off.


----------



## TheAttorney

You are right astrostar59, but I think you missed my point - this has nothing to do with sequencing of source and amp.
 This solely relates to Dave and its directly connected headphones. Nothing else is involved. 
  
 I guess what I'm suggesting is a minor mod for the next Dave version to reduce the switch-off spike at the headphone output (without impacting SQ).
 Not a big deal, and not an issue at all for those who leave Dave on 24/7. It's just a suggestion.


----------



## watermad

Most definitely follow the instruction manual of turning on DAVE 1st, as I did not follow this once and thought I may have damaged my speakers as the VERY, VERY large and abrupt power spike coming through my speakers had my startled, like a gun shot.
  
 I guess it depends on your set-up, but with mine the recommended turn on sequence is not an option, it is mandatory.
  
 As for leaving the DAVE on 24/7, why, even though it is relatively low voltage, it isn't like it's valves that need to warm up, it's all integrated circuits and a few discrete components, even at low standby voltage and current I would not want to prematurely age the components?


----------



## astrostar59

watermad said:


> Most definitely follow the instruction manual of turning on DAVE 1st, as I did not follow this once and thought I may have damaged my speakers as the VERY, VERY large and abrupt power spike coming through my speakers had my startled, like a gun shot.
> 
> I guess it depends on your set-up, but with mine the recommended turn on sequence is not an option, it is mandatory.
> 
> As for leaving the DAVE on 24/7, why, even though it is relatively low voltage, it isn't like it's valves that need to warm up, it's all integrated circuits and a few discrete components, even at low standby voltage and current I would not want to prematurely age the components?


 

 This is a big subject, and some manufactures actually recommend leaving on 24/7. My Plinius power amplifier for example, which sit on class A/B when not in use, so consumes less than a light bulb. And my PS Audio P10. The actual switch on and subsequent heating up of PS and caps ect can age a component. Wether that is worse than leaving on all the time? So both switching off, and leaving on has strong following.
  
 I would never leave on tube power amps though as tubes do fail, and can cause damage.


----------



## Triode User

astrostar59 said:


> This is a big subject, and some manufactures actually recommend leaving on 24/7. My Plinius power amplifier for example, which sit on class A/B when not in use, so consumes less than a light bulb. And my PS Audio P10. The actual switch on and subsequent heating up of PS and caps ect can age a component. Wether that is worse than leaving on all the time? So both switching off, and leaving on has strong following.
> 
> I would never leave on tube power amps though as tubes do fail, and can cause damage.


 
  Agree about tubes. They have a much shorter life than ss circuits.
  
 As has been said, there are pros and cons of leaving kit on when not in use. I always leave my DACs and ss amps switched on 24/7. I have done this for 30 years with no mishaps. For me I take my lead by observing that light bulbs always seem to blow at switch on rather than any other time. That's enough evidence for me as to what does the most damage, switching on and off or leaving on.
  
 No need to start a debate though. Do as you feel you want to or what the manufacturer recommends.


----------



## dguitarnut

theattorney said:


> Whilst on the subject of turning Dave on/off, I heard an unpleasant spike when turning off Dave whilst still wearing the headphones - not so loud as to damage headphone or ears, but gave me a jolt the first time it happened. This when Dave's volume was set to around -30db. When I retried with volume muted it didn't help.
> 
> This only happens at power switch off. No problems at all with power on (which has a soft start) or standby on or off.
> Not a big deal really, but I'd rather it didn't happen at all.
> I usually lave Dave on 24/7 or sometimes go into Standby, but I do like to switch it off if I'm away for several days.




By standby do you mean on mode 4 when the display turns off? Is the whole unit on standby or is it just the display?


----------



## TheAttorney

dguitarnut said:


> By standby do you mean on mode 4 when the display turns off? Is the whole unit on standby or is it just the display?


 
 I meant the whole unit going on standby (to save some electricty (and possibly slightly reduced wear on the components)). This can only be activated via the remote control.


----------



## dguitarnut

theattorney said:


> I meant the whole unit going on standby (to save some electricty (and possibly slightly reduced wear on the components)). This can only be activated via the remote control.



Thanks....something else I misread! Lol.


----------



## JaZZ

theattorney said:


> Whilst on the subject of turning Dave on/off, I heard an unpleasant spike when turning off Dave whilst still wearing the headphones - not so loud as to damage headphone or ears, but gave me a jolt the first time it happened. This when Dave's volume was set to around -30db. When I retried with volume muted it didn't help.
> 
> This only happens at power switch off. No problems at all with power on (which has a soft start) or standby on or off.
> Not a big deal really, but I'd rather it didn't happen at all.
> I usually lave Dave on 24/7 or sometimes go into Standby, but I do like to switch it off if I'm away for several days.


 
  
 You should once try to switch the DAVE off while music is playing! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Quite an experience!


----------



## ecwl

I am fortunate not to have any loud noise spikes when I switch Chord DAVE on and off (or just standby mode). I do follow the rule of turning my sources and then preamp and then amp on in general in case of these spikes. However, I have to say it seems that these issues are more system-dependent, rather than Chord DAVE dependent. I remember when I had my Chord QBD76HDSD and Sanders preamp and amplifier. If I forgot and switched the QBD76HDSD off or sometimes even if I turn my Blu-ray player off (connected via coaxial back then), I can get a loud spike through my speakers that freak me out. But then I switched over to digital volume control into the QBD76HDSD and took out the preamp (even more dangerous I guess), the problem went away. I did also change a few other things around where all my audio components are plugged into the same power bar to reduce the possibility of ground loops and leakage currents. So for those who are hearing noise spikes when they turn on and off their DAVE (or just putting DAVE in standby), it is possible that tweaking how everything else is connected might help. I'm just not an expert on these things so perhaps people who understand these issues can comment further. The point is that the issue may not even be related to DAVE.


----------



## mslatr

I have a Blu II on order and can't wait for delivery. Just wondering if anyone has recommendation for the cables to connect to the DAVE? Looks like I need 2 BNC SPDIF cables to connect to DX inputs, does anyone know if someone sells a dual cable or do I need 2 cables? Will any cable work or do I need a higher bandwidth cable? I have tried googling the answer but can't find a definite answer on operating at +700 khz. Any thoughts would be appreciated


----------



## GryphonGuy

My understanding is that the two cables each run at max 384kHz one cable being the left channel signal and the other being the right channel signal. As long as you purchase a digital cable with a certified 75Ω BNC connection you should be good. Cable makers seem to be offering more BNC terminations as more DAC manufacturers turn to BNC for the more definite 75Ω those connections offer as opposed to the approximate values that RCA terminations offer.
  
 ​Kimber Kable, for example, offer BNC terminations on their Select range of digital interconnects. Chord cables in the UK and so forth. If you have a preferred cable maker, I'm sure an e-mail to them to ask about 75Ω BNC termination on their digital cables will set you in the right direction.
  
 Regards
 ​GG
  
 ​Edit: Of course I meant two BNC cables to link Blu2 and Dave.


----------



## Crgreen

I was rather hoping that, given the price, Chord would include two 1 metre BNC terminated cables with the Blu 2. They've tended to include suitable cables with their other digital products. 

As to whether different brands of cable will make a difference and if so, what, is a debate I'm happy to see played out on this forum.


----------



## onsionsi

I'm curious to know if @Rob Watts discovered a new improvement in his upcoming Davina project with 16 million taps


----------



## mslatr

GG
  
 Thanks, that's what I thought. Always best to be sure! Enjoy the rest of the weekend!


----------



## miketlse

onsionsi said:


> I'm curious to know if @Rob Watts discovered a new improvement in his upcoming Davina project with 16 million taps




I think Davina has always been targeted at 1 million taps.

Writing the code to achieve more taps would be time consuming, so I think RW posted that he cannot envisage finding the time to exceed 16 million taps.


----------



## tunes

I am searching for a final solution for best DAC/amp for my HEK 1000 V2. After reading many posts it seems as if directly driving these particular headphones with the old HUGO 1 or Mojo just doesn't give enough dynamic punch to get the largest sound stage or deepest base possible. How does the power output from the Dave compare to the new Hugo 2 since I recall reading somewhere that it was more powerful than the Hugo 1. I am looking for the best synergy with these headphones but not yet ready to buy a Dave (looking to the future) and still want some transportability as well. 

It's been said that adding an external headphone amp to any of the Chord DACs is illadvised and defeats the design strategy for the purest sound possible from the source. Seems like a major compromise to have to add another amp in the chain with Cord DACs for these particular headphones to be driven to their fullest potential. Would like to hear what Dave owners feel about this who own the HEKV2 and if they ever tried amping any of the Chord DACs and impressions. Why couldn't a really clean high quality headphone amp maintain most of what the Chord DACs offer, take little away and add greater dynamics to offset the shortcomings of some tonal coloration/ distortion? A few amps that seem really good for this are the Trilogy 931, Violectric HPA V281 and MicroZOTL 2 tube amp. 

Thanks


----------



## rgs9200m

I use a Hugo TT --> Rudistor RP010B amp with good cables at every junction and the sound with my HEKv2 is outstanding. The HE1000v2 produces the best synergy in this system, so good I am resisting the feeling to upgrade to a Dave since I don't want to upset the apple cart (but I do use a Windows computer as a source).
 So don't take as Gospel that using an external amp "defeats the design strategy" as there are strong proponents on both sides of this subject.
 And some Chord-ites use a Stax headphone and swear by it, where of course a headphone amp is mandatory. They are not defeating anything.
  
 Just to re-emphasize, there is some special goodness in the Chord / HEKv2 combination as I hear it after using several different flagship headphones here.
 Good luck.
 Edit: to be clear, I use the stock cable on the HEKv2, but balanced.


----------



## SunWarrior

tunes said:


> It's been said that adding an external headphone amp to any of the Chord DACs is illadvised and defeats the design strategy for the purest sound possible from the source. Seems like a major compromise to have to add another amp in the chain with Chord DACs for these particular headphones to be driven to their fullest potential. Would like to hear what Dave owners feel about this who own the HEKV2 and if they ever tried amping any of the Chord DACs and impressions.


 
  
 That doesn't make sense to me. I bought the Chord DAVE originally just for its superior DAC capabilities, running in between my Aurender music server and my Luxman integrated amp, and on to the speakers. The sound is great that way.
  
 Similarly, there are numbers of excellent headphone amps that do not have DACs. Two that come to mind are the Cavalli Liquid Gold and the Pass Labs HPA-1. Either one of those headphone amps needs to be fed by some source, and if you have an all-digital system - as I do - that means the amp needs to be fed by a DAC's analog outputs.
  
 So, why wouldn't I use the great-sounding DAVE to feed the amp? You think a lesser or even similar-level DAC, such as a Berkeley Reference, would sound better with either headphone amp? Or do you think the DAVE's sound quality gets diminished by running into any amp, whether for headphones or speakers?
  
 That's not been my experience.
  
 Dave, who finds the Cavalli Liquid Gold and the Chord DAVE have two distinctly different but rich sounds with the Focal Utopia headphones and so they complement each other for my listening


----------



## JaZZ

rgs9200m said:


> I use a Hugo TT --> Rudistor RP010B amp with good cables at every junction and the sound with my HEKv2 is outstanding. The HE1000v2 produces the best synergy in this system, so good I am resisting the feeling to upgrade to a Dave since I don't want to upset the apple cart (but I do use a Windows computer as a source).
> So don't take as Gospel that using an external amp "defeats the design strategy" as there are strong proponents on both sides of this subject.
> And some Chord-ites use a Stax headphone and swear by it, where of course a headphone amp is mandatory. *They are not defeating anything.*


 
  
 Yes, of course they do. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Every amp degrades the signal. That's why electrostatic headphones will always have a handicap compared to dynamic headphones with a DAVE or any other Chord DAC/amp. That doesn't mean electrostatic systems with a Chord DAC have a handicap compared to other DACs, though.
  
 I understand that you like the synergy between the HE1000 and your Rudistor RP010B amp; I've heard the RP5cav which also follows Rudi's sonic ideal, and it's really something special – but also a sound far beyond neutrality, it's much too euphonic and forgiving for my taste.
  
 Of course you can add an amp to the DAVE, but it won't improve the sound objectively.


----------



## JaZZ

sunwarrior said:


> tunes said:
> 
> 
> > It's been said that adding an external headphone amp to any of the Chord DACs is illadvised and defeats the design strategy for the purest sound possible from the source. Seems like a major compromise to have to add another amp in the chain with Chord DACs for these particular headphones to be driven to their fullest potential. Would like to hear what Dave owners feel about this who own the HEKV2 and if they ever tried amping any of the Chord DACs and impressions.
> ...


 
  
 You don't seem to realize that you can't bypass the DAVE's integrated «headphone amp», since it's identical with its line-out stage, thus line out and headphone out carry the same signal. So the usual scenario of replacing an integrated amp by an external amp doesn't apply: instead you re-amplify an already amplified signal meant to drive headphones – there's nothing to gain in terms of objective sound quality by doing so.


----------



## ecwl

Quote:


tunes said:


> I am searching for a final solution for best DAC/amp for my HEK 1000 V2. After reading many posts it seems as if directly driving these particular headphones with the old HUGO 1 or Mojo just doesn't give enough dynamic punch to get the largest sound stage or deepest base possible.


 
   
I have heard the HEK 1000 V2 driven by the Mojo. I thought it sounded great.

  
 This is what the real issue is IMHO. Different music is recorded at different volume levels and different people listen to music at different volumes. I know for a fact that I generally listen to music at 10-15dB softer than most people and often up to 25dB softer than some people who just love playing loud (or louder). That's why I had no problems driviing HEK 1000 V2 with Mojo for the music I listen to and the volume I listen at.
  
 The real challenge for Tunes is to find out whether say Hugo 2 or Chord DAVE can drive the HEK 1000 V2 to a volume that Tunes would want to listen to music at. I think most people in the Chord DAVE forum says yes but there are a few that say no.
  
 If I were Tunes, I would buy the best DAC I can afford (Hugo 2 vs DAVE) with some spare change and then if they can't drive HEK 1000 v2 to satisfactory volume with punch, I would buy an amp to go with the Hugo 2/DAVE. If the issue is that Tunes can only afford Hugo 2 + headphone amp or DAVE but not DAVE + headphone amp, I would say Tunes should just buy Hugo 2 first. Because I don't believe anyone should stretch their budget to a degree where if you can't afford DAVE + headphone amp, you probably shouldn't get DAVE. But that's a personal opinion on personal finance that may not be applicable to everyone.


----------



## SunWarrior

jazz said:


> You don't seem to realize that you can't bypass the DAVE's integrated «headphone amp», since it's identical with its line-out stage, thus line out and headphone out carry the same signal. So the usual scenario of replacing an integrated amp by an external amp doesn't apply: instead you re-amplify an already amplified signal meant to drive headphones – there's nothing to gain in terms of objective sound quality by doing so.


 
  
 So are you saying that using the DAVE as a standalone DAC, with its analog outputs feeding an amplifier to drive speakers, is a poor idea?
  
 Similarly, are you saying that if you have a headphone amp, like the Cavalli or Pass, that require a signal input, that the DAVE is a poor choice?


----------



## bigfatpaulie

sunwarrior said:


> So are you saying that using the DAVE as a standalone DAC, with its analog outputs feeding an amplifier to drive speakers, is a poor idea?
> 
> Similarly, are you saying that if you have a headphone amp, like the Cavalli or Pass, that require a signal input, that the DAVE is a poor choice?


 
  
 I can't speak for JaZZ but in my experience an external amp will result in a loss of resolution from DAVE.  And, frankly, I don't care what amp you are using, you are going to lose something.  
  
 With speakers, for the most part, you are stuck using an amp.  With headphones, we aren't forced to use one.
  
 That said, the loss of transparency CAN be worth it - sometimes.  Rarely.  For example, a big speaker amp driving (a Moon 600i, for example) the Abyss adds presence and weight so that may be worth it to a listener.  An amp form Cavalli or Pass' headphone amp won't do that.  They also won't offer anything (in my experience) that would be worth the trade off with DAVE.
  
 But to each their own.


----------



## SunWarrior

bigfatpaulie said:


> I can't speak for JaZZ but in my experience an external amp will result in a loss of resolution from DAVE.  And, frankly, I don't care what amp you are using, you are going to lose something.
> 
> With speakers, for the most part, you are stuck using an amp.  With headphones, we aren't forced to use one.
> 
> ...


 
  
 So, if you had either the Cavalli or Pass headphone amps, in an all-digital system, what do you think the best DAC in the $10K price range to feed them might be?
  
 You see, for me, the DAVE is still the best DAC - even if it had no headphone output - in that price range.
  
 So...just curious your take...


----------



## bigfatpaulie

sunwarrior said:


> So, if you had either the Cavalli or Pass headphone amps, in an all-digital system, what do you think the best DAC in the $10K price range to feed them might be?
> 
> You see, for me, the DAVE is still the best DAC - even if it had no headphone output - in that price range.
> 
> So...just curious your take...


 
  
 Still DAVE, but I would ditch the amps.  What do you feel that you are gaining by keeping them in the system?  Particularly with the Utopia's?


----------



## JaZZ

sunwarrior said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > You don't seem to realize that you can't bypass the DAVE's integrated «headphone amp», since it's identical with its line-out stage, thus line out and headphone out carry the same signal. So the usual scenario of replacing an integrated amp by an external amp doesn't apply: instead you re-amplify an already amplified signal meant to drive headphones – there's nothing to gain in terms of objective sound quality by doing so.
> ...


 
  
 Yes to your first point. No to the second: The DAVE is probably the best DAC to feed the Cavalli or Pass. But even better would be to sell those two – they're simply obsolete, unless you have a really demanding headphone, something like the HE-6 maybe. Why would you add an amplifier to a headphone output? What are you hoping to improve on the signal?


----------



## SunWarrior

bigfatpaulie said:


> Still DAVE, but I would ditch the amps.  What do you feel that you are gaining by keeping them in the system?  Particularly with the Utopia's?


 
 Well, I need one amp, the Luxman, for my speakers.
  
 And the Cavalli has such a different sound signature than the DAVE that they offer two various kinds of pleasures.


----------



## Crgreen

onsionsi said:


> I'm curious to know if @Rob Watts discovered a new improvement in his upcoming Davina project with 16 million taps




16 million taps? I've obviously not been paying attention. I thought we'd only just hit the one million mark with the m-scaler plus DAVE. Or is this a custom configuration designed for research purposes?


----------



## rgs9200m

Well, to be honest, all my headphones sound a little bit sterile right out of my Chord Hugo and Hugo TT. They need some coloration and oomph to my ears.
 We'll see what happens if there is ever a Hugo TT2. My mind (and hopefully my ears) is still open...
 But the Hugo TT DAC RULES! So thanks Chord.
 (Off topic: the Head-fi editor just autocorrected a spelling error. Is this new? The wow-factor lives.)


----------



## Rob Watts

crgreen said:


> I was rather hoping that, given the price, Chord would include two 1 metre BNC terminated cables with the Blu 2. They've tended to include suitable cables with their other digital products.
> 
> As to whether different brands of cable will make a difference and if so, what, is a debate I'm happy to see played out on this forum.


 
 There will be "get up and going" BNC to BNC cables - for two reasons. Running at 768 kHz SPDIF is a first; I was worried that somebody would use a flaky BNC cable that was not true 75 ohm coaxial cable. So supplying a set that is guaranteed to work will prove that a potential problem was the cables. The second reason is just to make sure you are up and running immediately.
  
 I have tested it with a range of expensive BNC and it worked perfectly so perhaps my worries are not really a problem. Will be doing some proper listening tests when I get back from Asia.
  
 Rob


----------



## bigfatpaulie

sunwarrior said:


> Well, I need one amp, the Luxman, for my speakers.
> 
> And the Cavalli has such a different sound signature than the DAVE that they offer two various kinds of pleasures.


 
  
 Then there is your answer - You feel the Cavalli offers something that makes the loss of resolution worth it.


----------



## Rob Watts

miketlse said:


> onsionsi said:
> 
> 
> > I'm curious to know if @Rob Watts discovered a new improvement in his upcoming Davina project with 16 million taps
> ...


 
 Blu 2 took the design from Davina to make the M scaler - so 1M taps is the limit with Davina. What Davina will tell me is how much SQ loss the M scaler actually introduces with complete certainty - and that will be very valuable information.
  
 Rob


----------



## jlbrach

ecwl said:


> I have heard the HEK 1000 V2 driven by the Mojo. I thought it sounded great.
> 
> This is what the real issue is IMHO. Different music is recorded at different volume levels and different people listen to music at different volumes. I know for a fact that I generally listen to music at 10-15dB softer than most people and often up to 25dB softer than some people who just love playing loud (or louder). That's why I had no problems driviing HEK 1000 V2 with Mojo for the music I listen to and the volume I listen at.
> 
> ...


 
 the dave drives the HE1000 v2 without issue unless you are deaf....


----------



## jlbrach

rgs9200m said:


> Well, to be honest, all my headphones sound a little bit sterile right out of my Chord Hugo and Hugo TT. They need some coloration and oomph to my ears.
> We'll see what happens if there is ever a Hugo TT2. My mind (and hopefully my ears) is still open...
> But the Hugo TT DAC RULES! So thanks Chord.
> (Off topic: the Head-fi editor just autocorrected a spelling error. Is this new? The wow-factor lives.)


 
 sterile?you mean accurate...if what you are after is colored sound why bother with the Dave at all?....personally I own a Moon 430 amp which i have used on the rare occasion that my HP is too difficult to drive but for the most part i listen straight out of the Dave


----------



## JaZZ

rgs9200m said:


> Well, to be honest, all my headphones sound a little bit sterile right out of my Chord Hugo and Hugo TT. They need some coloration and oomph to my ears.
> We'll see what happens if there is ever a Hugo TT2. My mind (and hopefully my ears) is still open...
> But the Hugo TT DAC RULES! So thanks Chord.
> (Off topic: the Head-fi editor just autocorrected a spelling error. Is this new? The wow-factor lives.)


 
  
 I understand. That «sterility» is in fact the true sound of your chain without any varnishing colorations from the electronics. (The Rudistor amp I had with me for two weeks effectively made the music sound like varnished with a glossy lacquer. I liked it, but couldn't live with it in the long run.) The actual cause is the imperfection within the chain, with the headphones as the main responsibles. I guess the DAVE is a bit more forgiving than the Hugo TT anyway (extrapolating from my experience with the Hugo), or maybe it's in fact the objectively better signal that it outputs leading to reduced over-all imperfection.
  
 My cure for all this is equalizing, since an uneven frequency response is the main problem in every chain. Better cables can also help – some cables introduce some graininess.


----------



## JaZZ

jlbrach said:


> the dave drives the HE1000 v2 without issue unless you are deaf....


 
  
 I agree completely. Glad to hear this from you!


----------



## onsionsi

Deleted


----------



## EVOLVIST

rob watts said:


> There will be "get up and going" BNC to BNC cables - for two reasons. Running at 768 kHz SPDIF is a first; I was worried that somebody would use a flaky BNC cable that was not true 75 ohm coaxial cable. So supplying a set that is guaranteed to work will prove that a potential problem was the cables. The second reason is just to make sure you are up and running immediately.
> 
> I have tested it with a range of expensive BNC and it worked perfectly so perhaps my worries are not really a problem. Will be doing some proper listening tests when I get back from Asia.
> 
> Rob




Thanks, Rob. Yes, please report back to us with your findings on the BNC cables. 

I mean, in theory, if the remit is met with true 75ohm impedance, from my understanding, there should not be much of a difference, if any at all, between cables. I'm sure a lot of us would be interested in your findings. After all, I only found a marginal difference between some high-end USB cables and the one that came in the box with the DAVE. On the other hand, I used a $20 USB cable that had chokes on it, and it sounded like crap with the DAVE.


----------



## miketlse

onsionsi said:


> Did you mean RW cannot envisage finding the time to exceed 1 million taps or did he reached to 16 million taps


 
 RW had proposed that his design philosophy for dacs, would need 1 million taps to reproduce the redbook CD music signals, to such a high level of accuracy that the human brain would not be able to detect any improvement with a larger number of taps.
*He has reached 1 million taps with the Blu 2/M-scalar/Davina development projects*.
  
 From a scientific viewpoint, the original hypothesis is still unproven, until RW develops a dac using more than 1 million taps, and can then test the hypothesis.
 In one of his posts, he stated that 16 million taps would be the maximum number of taps he would be able to find the time to code -* so the 16 million taps is aspirational at the present time*.
 I wouldn't bet against him managing it sometime.


----------



## EVOLVIST

miketlse said:


> RW had proposed that his design philosophy for dacs, would need 1 million taps to reproduce the redbook CD music signals, to such a high level of accuracy that the human brain would not be able to detect any improvement with a larger number of taps.
> *He has reached 1 million taps with the Blu 2/M-scalar/Davina development projects*.
> In one of his posts, he stated that 16 million taps would be the maximum number of taps he would be able to find the time to code - *so the 16 million taps is aspirational at the present time*.
> I wouldn't bet against him managing it sometime.




Yet, in another post it was stated that to fully render 24-bits the theory is that it would take 250 million taps. 

That doesn't concern me, though. I wonder how much further the pulse array technology can be taken beyond 20 elements, and if one could be able to tell the difference. I suspect that anything beyond 1 million taps is academic, anyway, IF one buys into the original hypothesis. 

But here's the deal, as I've stated before, it would surprise me if Chord didn't have a rather elaborate, yet flexible, roadmap for their products. You never want to run out of **** to sell. Would it be smart business to say, "Okay guys, we've hit a brick wall; you'll never get better than 1 million taps." But let say that's actually the truth (and it very well might be). Now it becomes, "Connect your Blu2 to our DAVE2 in 2020, with an even better internal PSU, 40e pulse array technology, and new improved WTA filters."

Now that we've invented ice cream, or we only dealing with future flavors, or can we make it colder, longer, never-melting, that changes flavors in your mouth. That's some Willy Wonka stuff right there. 

All that to say, man, I really hope this is the end. Even outside of amps that might change to face of amplification, I hope I've almost reached the end of what my ear/brain can hear. I don't know, though. I haven't got a crystal ball. 

Over at the Schiit Shack of Super Best Audio Nuggets,they believe the claim that the Yggy is the best that there is, or ever will be. But is Schiit going to sit back and tell the masses that they'll never have a better product to sell? That's suicide. 

I know, I'm rambling; yet who am I fooling? I caved into the Blu2, knowing good and well that Chord will "improve" their product at some future time. I just hope that I won't be able to hear the difference.


----------



## miketlse

evolvist said:


> Yet, in another post it was stated that to fully render 24-bits the theory is that it would take 250 million taps.
> 
> That doesn't concern me, though. I wonder how much further the pulse array technology can be taken beyond 20 elements, and if one could be able to tell the difference. I suspect that anything beyond 1 million taps is academic, anyway, IF one buys into the original hypothesis.
> 
> ...


 
 Yes RW did post that to fully render the 24 bits, then 256 million taps would be necessary.
  
 I agree that it will probably be unnecessary to develop a device using 256 million taps.
 But that still leaves RW in the position of wanting to devote time, to coding/testing a device to test his original hypothesis that only 1 million taps is required.
 But how many taps does he need to try? Going from 16 bit to 17 bit requires 2 million taps, to 18 bit requires 4 million taps, to 19 bit requires 8 million taps, and 20 bit requires 16 million taps. The normal engineering approach would be to estimate the incremental effort to achieve each of these additional bits, and compare to the maximum amount of resources available.
 Presumably RW has done this, and decided that 20 bits is the maximum that he would have the resources available to code - but I bet he hopes that just 17 bit would be enough to prove/disprove his hypothesis.


----------



## Crgreen

miketlse said:


> RW had proposed that his design philosophy for dacs, would need 1 million taps to reproduce the redbook CD music signals, to such a high level of accuracy that the human brain would not be able to detect any improvement with a larger number of taps.
> *He has reached 1 million taps with the Blu 2/M-scalar/Davina development projects*.
> 
> From a scientific viewpoint, the original hypothesis is still unproven, until RW develops a dac using more than 1 million taps, and can then test the hypothesis.
> ...




I'm afraid this is one of things that troubles me in deciding whether to plump my dosh on a Blu 2. Rob is quite candid how things have gone. At one point one million taps was just a hypothesis. Unexpexcedly (for the rest of us) it has become a reality, and he, and others, say it does make a big difference. So, with improvements in chip design, who's to say that there might not be significant improvements in the future. We don't know, but it concerns me that in 12 months or so, we might see an m-scaler with significant advances over the present design. I bought a DAVE a year ago, and am still mesmerised by its performance, but I can't afford to spend that kind of money every year. 

And it's not like my DAVE is starting to sound crap. It's important to try and retain a sense of perspective.


----------



## x RELIC x

Back to the previous page's topic of the Liquid Gold and/or DAVE here's my $0.02 having both sitting right beside me. For 99% of the time I listen straight out of the DAVE and the Liquid Gold sits unused. This isn't a knock against the Liquid Gold(LAu) but when I plug in to the LAu I do notice a loss in transparency vs the DAVE alone. The reasons I would hook up to the LAu are that it has a sweetness to the tone that I enjoy from time to time but I do lose out on some nuance if listening through the Cavalli 'filter'.

As far as volume I never listen to the DAVE louder than -25 with my LCD-2.2 pre-fazor (the hardest to drive headphone I have), and I barely use 1/4 of the volume on the LAu, low gain, SE, 1/8th volume balanced (the rest of the volume unused is a waste). I imagine the DAVE has plenty of volume with room to spare, mathematically, for the HE1000 to reach an average listening SPL of 90dB, but I haven't personally tried it. 

The hard question is, where does one's preferences sit? Transparency or sweetness/euphoria? The question isn't meant to imply the DAVE is cold or sterile, far from it. I find the DAVE to have plenty of euphoria and for my tastes it has a fantastic balance of analogue like qualities and incisive precision. Just that the LAu adds more of a sweetness / phat quality on top.


----------



## JaZZ

crgreen said:


> I'm afraid this is one of things that troubles me in deciding whether to plump my dosh on a Blu 2. Rob is quite candid how things have gone. At one point one million taps was just a hypothesis. Unexpexcedly (for the rest of us) it has become a reality, and he, and others, say it does make a big difference. So, with improvements in chip design, who's to say that there might not be significant improvements in the future. We don't know, but it concerns me that in 12 months or so, we might see an m-scaler with significant advances over the present design. I bought a DAVE a year ago, and am still mesmerised by its performance, but I can't afford to spend that kind of money every year.
> 
> And it's not like my DAVE is starting to sound crap. It's important to try and retain a sense of perspective.


 
  
 It's very unlikely that Rob will manage to develop a WTA filter with more than 1 million taps in the next three or four years. From his own statements I take it that he's much too occupied with other concerns, among others Davina, which will have 1 million taps and most likely be marketed in this configuration. And then there are the digital amps for the DAVE. Maybe there will be a 3Cute and/or a Hugo² TT in the nearer future... All of them are more important projects from a business perspective, as I see it.
  
 However, I have found a trick to emulate the M-Scaler with my DAVE, and I will generously reveal it to all who are interested. The precondition is that you now have the HF filter engaged by default. That's how I've listened to music the past few weeks, too, against my initial preference for the filterless operation. Yesterday I have turned it off after quite a while, and suddenly the soundstage opened up, there was much more detail, and everything sounded more lively and dynamic – a real revelation. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That's how I expect the M-Scaler to improve the sound, just to an even higher level.


----------



## Jawed

It's worth noting that a significant aspect in the improvement of DAVE over Hugo is that the first WTA filter is applied for 16x upsampling, instead of 8x in Hugo.

Since DAVE's DAC runs at 2048x, the ideal filter would be a single-stage to 2048x, without the intermediate steps seen in DAVE of 16x and 256x.

So, ahem, plenty of room for improvement in future products.

I don't think Rob has ever said why the pulse array runs at 2048x (approximately 100MHz). Why not 200MHz?

Now playing: Pink Floyd - Paranoid Eyes


----------



## JaZZ

I can imagine that programming the WTA filter code at 256FS would be even much more laborious, let alone 2048FS – but what do I know.


----------



## Rob Watts

jawed said:


> It's worth noting that a significant aspect in the improvement of DAVE over Hugo is that the first WTA filter is applied for 16x upsampling, instead of 8x in Hugo.
> 
> Since DAVE's DAC runs at 2048x, the ideal filter would be a single-stage to 2048x, without the intermediate steps seen in DAVE of 16x and 256x.
> 
> ...


 
 Good question. Its actually about timing closure and getting the discrete flip-flops (FF) to time correctly with the OP delay of the FPGA. Oddly, over the past 15 years, discrete FF have not improved at all in terms of speed; even more oddly, the FPGA OP delay has not changed either over that period.
  
 Internally to the FPGA, clocks run at around 800 MHz or so; the WTA filters and other modules run at 208 MHz. 
  
 There are some more issues too, but its way too complex to talk about.
  
 Rob


----------



## Triode User

rob watts said:


> There are some more issues too, but its way too complex to talk about.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 I like the 'don't bother your pretty little heads with this complicated stuff' comment!!
  
 It suits me Rob. You create the stuff and I'll just listen to it. (All in the vein of 'why have a dog and bark yourself' although no suggestion of Rob being a dog but you get the gist.)


----------



## Knipester

Could anybody point me to where the chord dave db readings on the variable preamp have been matched to vrms? I have an option of 2 or 4vrms on my amplifier and at present I'm using -7db? A comparison table would be excellent


----------



## Kakki

Rob, I read your technical presentation on Hugo2 with very much interests.
  
 It seems that Hugo2 achieves most of the technologies that were unique for Dave before.
 I know that Dave is still special as it has more taps in WTA, more advanced digital filters, and more elements in the Pulse Array.
  
 Is there any other key differences that make Dave so special over Hugo2?
 Would really appreciate your comments.


----------



## EVOLVIST

knipester said:


> Could anybody point me to where the chord dave db readings on the variable preamp have been matched to vrms? I have an option of 2 or 4vrms on my amplifier and at present I'm using -7db? A comparison table would be excellent




See if this calculator does you any good. It does more than most. 

http://www.random-science-tools.com/electronics/dBm-Watts-volts.htm


----------



## Knipester

evolvist said:


> See if this calculator does you any good. It does more than most.
> 
> Thanks but having taken a quick look at this I wouldn't know where to start!
> 
> http://www.random-science-tools.com/electronics/dBm-Watts-volts.htm


----------



## ecwl

knipester said:


> Could anybody point me to where the chord dave db readings on the variable preamp have been matched to vrms? I have an option of 2 or 4vrms on my amplifier and at present I'm using -7db? A comparison table would be excellent


 

 I might have done the math wrong but this is what I calculated for Chord DAVE. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
  
 Chord DAVE output voltages
 -3dB = 3V rms
 -7dB = 2V rms
 -13dB = 1V rms


----------



## Knipester

Thanks I can now stop wondering and enjoy this fabulous device


----------



## EVOLVIST

ecwl said:


> I might have done the math wrong but this is what I calculated for Chord DAVE. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Chord DAVE output voltages
> -3dB = 3V rms
> ...




But the DAVE Maxes out at 6.7vRMS before clipping via RCA. Yes? Yes, I believe so. But I guess that's not what he/she was asking.


----------



## Knipester

My amp can take 2v rms or 4v rms, so some reduction from the standard 3v rms (single ended) had to be made to stop the amplifier clipping, not the dave.


----------



## tunes

evolvist said:


> But the DAVE Maxes out at 6.7vRMS before clipping via RCA. Yes? Yes, I believe so. But I guess that's not what he/she was asking.


How much more powerful is the DAVE compared to the new HUGO2?


----------



## EVOLVIST

tunes said:


> How much more powerful is the DAVE compared to the new HUGO2?


 
  
 Well, if my calculations are correct, the Hugo2 is 1050mW in 8ohms which equals 2.8vRMS max, before clipping. That all equals to 1W per channel.
  
 With the DAVE the specs state that 6.7vRMS max, before clipping into 33ohms is going to give 1.4W per channel. But, going into 8ohms (which, by the way, Rob has said not to feed the DAVE into a 6 or 4ohm load), gives the DAVE 5.6W per channel.
  
 So, that would be about 5xs the amount of watts between Hugo2 and DAVE.
  
 Maybe somebody can come along and correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## JaZZ

The official specs:
  
*Hugo¹**                                              Hugo²                                              DAVE*
0070 mW  at 300 Ω                    0094 mW  at 300 Ω                    0154 mW  at 300 Ω
0580 mW  at 033 Ω                    0740 mW  at 033 Ω                    1400 mW  at 033 Ω
0720 mW  at 008 Ω                    1050 mW  at 008 Ω                    2900 mW  at 008 Ω  (estimated)


----------



## 514077

jazz said:


> The official specs:
> 
> *Hugo²                                              DAVE*
> 0094 mW  at 300 Ω                    0154 mW  at 300 Ω
> ...


 
 Would you happen to know the Hugo vs Hugo2 power specs?


----------



## EVOLVIST

jazz said:


> The official specs:
> 
> *Hugo²                                              DAVE*
> 0094 mW  at 300 Ω                    0154 mW  at 300 Ω
> ...


 
  
 Where are you getting 1990 mW at 8 ohms for the DAVE? I don't see that on their site. Because at 1990 mW at 8ohm that only equates to 3.99vRMS and it's been stated that the DAVE can output 6.7vRMS (and according to their site) at 8ohms before clipping.
  
 But, something might be screwy with my calculations, because really they aren't mine, I get them from here:
  
http://www.random-science-tools.com/electronics/dBm-Watts-volts.htm
  
 My calculations were matching up, until...NOW! Haha.


----------



## JaZZ

uelong said:


> Would you happen to know the Hugo vs Hugo2 power specs?


 
  
 I just added the Hugo¹ specs in front of the others.


----------



## JaZZ

evolvist said:


> Where are you getting 1990 mW at 8 ohms for the DAVE? I don't see that on their site. Because at 1990 mW at 8ohm that only equates to 3.99vRMS and it's been stated that the DAVE can output 6.7vRMS (and according to their site) at 8ohms before clipping.
> 
> But, something might be screwy with my calculations, because really they aren't mine, I get them from here:
> 
> ...


 
  
 I just took the factor 1.42 between 740 and 1050 watts from the Hugo², but now have slightly modified it, since the DAVE seems to provide slightly higher currents at lower impedances. It's estimated anyway, so don't take it too seriously. Maybe your calculations are in fact (more) correct.


----------



## 514077

jazz said:


> The official specs:
> 
> *Hugo¹**                                              Hugo²                                              DAVE*
> 0070 mW  at 300 Ω                    0094 mW  at 300 Ω                    0154 mW  at 300 Ω
> ...


 
 Thanks.  I would have asked on the H2 thread, but it seems to be inaccessable at this time.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jazz said:


> I just took the factor 1.42 between 740 and 1050 watts from the Hugo², but now have slightly modified it, since the DAVE seems to provide slightly higher currents at lower impedances. It's estimated anyway, so don't take it too seriously. Maybe your calculations are in fact (more) correct.




Well, with the calculator it seems that if I enter the ohms and then the mW it gives a totally different vRMS. On the other hand, if I enter the ohms and the vRMS, first, it gives me a total different output for mW and Watts. 

I don't know which is correct! Haha


----------



## JaZZ

After all you may be right that the output current is considerably higher than my first estimation. I took the risk and inserted you value in hindsight.


----------



## EVOLVIST

@Rob Watts I know you have a number of people clamoring for your attention, but perhaps you can put this one to rest? If I use this calculator and enter in the DAVE specs from the Chord site, I get the figures exactly as specified on the site:
  
*1% THD 6.8v RMS with 33Ω (1.4w)* - Here, we're clipping via the headphone output and the RCA output in preamp mode. However, if we turn the volume pot down to +4db now we are at 6.7vRMS and now clipping. Nevertheless, there are the specs from the Chord website, which match up to the calculator only by changing the ohms and the vRMS.
  

  
  
 Now, adjusting, again, only the ohms and the vRMS, to 6.7vRMS where we're not clipping and going into 8ohms:
  

  
*Now, is the above correct?* That's a big leap in wattage going into 8ohms!
  
 For *Hugo2* I checked the Chord site, and after pouring over it, the same method that I used in the calculator did not match the DAVE data, because it was only that when I looked closer, I found this little nugget: *THD and noise at 3v RMS: 120dB at 1kHz 300ohms ‘A’ wighted (reference 5.3v)* I don't understand this, but I got the following, which matches what's on the Chord website:
  

  
 Not so fast, however, when I change to 33ohm & 8ohms. It no longer matches the Chord site specs:


  
 So, yeah, this is where I'm getting screwed up. If I'm calculating your product wrong, I would like to know where I'm running into issues. This seems a little strange, but then again, I'm learning. Heh.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## JaZZ

Nick, now I see the error in your reasoning. If you look at the Hugo¹ and Hugo² specs, there's no logarithmic increase of output power with a logarithmic decrease of impedance. Because the current flow in common amps is limited. The DAVE comes closer to it, even achieves a perfect congruence between 300 and 33 Ω: ¹/909 of the impedance leads to the 9,09-fold power. However, with even lower impedances it certainly won't behave like that anymore.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jazz said:


> The DAVE comes closer to it, even achieves a perfect congruence between 300 and 33 Ω: ¹/909 of the impedance leads to the 9,09-fold power. However, with even lower impedances it certainly won't behave like that anymore.


 
  
 And that's what I'm trying to get at, i.e. exactly how many watts will one draw from the DAVE at 6.7 vRMS?
  
 I guess I don't really have to know why the lower impedance doesn't behave that way, given that the impedance _does _behave the same, even with a much larger leap between 300ohms and 33ohms, compared to the gap between 33ohms and 8ohms. Still, yeah, I'd like to know.  Hmmmmmm....


----------



## Rob Watts

The only way we can find out is by measuring it into 8 ohms - the current available from the PSU will be the limiting factor.
  
 I will do a measurement next week when I get home, as I don't have the figures to hand.


----------



## Deftone

Anyone use the Dave for movies and TV shows ?
I use Mojo with JriverMC and it sounds great with soundtracks, voice and ambient music of course so I can't imagine what Dave must do for films.


----------



## Arpiben

evolvist said:


> And that's what I'm trying to get at, i.e. exactly how many watts will one draw from the DAVE at 6.7 vRMS?
> 
> I guess I don't really have to know why the lower impedance doesn't behave that way, given that the impedance _does_ behave the same, even with a much larger leap between 300ohms and 33ohms, compared to the gap between 33ohms and 8ohms. Still, yeah, I'd like to know.  Hmmmmmm....



Calculations work in the *linear* part(s) of your Power vs Impedance curve.
At low impedance the output power is limited by current.
At high impedance the output power is limited by Voltage.


----------



## EVOLVIST

arpiben said:


> Calculations work in the *linear* part(s) of your Power vs Impedance curve.
> At low impedance the output power is limited by current.
> At high impedance the output power is limited by Voltage.




I can follow that. I am still very much interested in what Rob finds as the wattage from the DAVE at 8ohms.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I have just listened to a 15 minute radio 4 program under the Heading Uncommon Senses. This short episode focuses on the predictive abilities of our Brain. It touched on the same lines of previous comments by Rob on this subject. Where sometimes we have to let our brains interpret the sound to fully appreciate it. Whilst the program didn't cover sound specifically, it gave interesting sensory examples such as looking at a vista (let's say with trees in it). Look strait ahead. Then be aware of where things are whilst you move your eyes around the vista whilst keeping your head still. You will notice for instance that the trees are perfectly stable whilst you move your eyes around. This is not what you are actually seeing. It is impossible because the very act of moving your retina puts the focal angle on a different plane with the trees (albeit slightly) and there should be a shaking of the picture just by moving your eyeball but your brain computes the data received and stableises it. 

They also played some unintelligible electronically affected speech. Then they advised us what it was saying and played it to us again. You then hear it differently and understand it.

Interestingly our brain also makes adjustment to our sensory touch on occasions. A person can be very ticklish in a certain place but when they tickle themselves there they are unaffected by it. Only a third party can tickle us it seems because when we do it to ourselves the brain deadens the sense. There is one exception to this. Evidently a schizophrenic can tickle themselves! Haha 

Anyway a fascinating subject which brings home just how much our brain interprets raw data in order to comprehend what we see, hear and feel.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08k5zp0#play

Sorry O/T btw.


----------



## Triode User

daveredref-iii said:


> I have just listened to a 15 minute radio 4 program under the Heading Uncommon Senses. This short episode focuses on the predictive abilities of our Brain. It touched on the same lines of previous comments by Rob on this subject. Where sometimes we have to let our brains interpret the sound to fully appreciate it. Whilst the program didn't cover sound specifically, it gave interesting sensory examples such as looking at a vista (let's say with trees in it). Look strait ahead. Then be aware of where things are whilst you move your eyes around the vista whilst keeping your head still. You will notice for instance that the trees are perfectly stable whilst you move your eyes around. This is not what you are actually seeing. It is impossible because the very act of moving your retina puts the focal angle on a different plane with the trees (albeit slightly) and there should be a shaking of the picture just by moving your eyeball but your brain computes the data received and stableises it.
> 
> They also played some unintelligible electronically affected speech. Then they advised us what it was saying and played it to us again. You then hear it differently and understand it.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes, I heard a snippet the other day on R4 on a similar theme (or even the same programme). What we hear can alter the taste of food etc etc.
  
 The brain is basically just too clever with the way it takes information and interprets it or even fills in gaps where necessary. What chance against that have we got of knowing what we are actually hearing and whether the processing of the brain has altered it. In other words the sound we 'hear' is not the bare sound but a processed version of it.
  
 Also sorry about being O/T but just too interesting to ignore.


----------



## Silvertone4

Does anyone know if Davina will include wireless network streaming functionality?

Thanks!


----------



## jelt2359

silvertone4 said:


> Does anyone know if Davina will include wireless network streaming functionality?
> 
> Thanks!


 
 I don't think so. That's not the goal of Davina. Davina is really meant as an ADC- for Rob's uses, specifically, it allows him to test:
  
 Native 768k file vs
 768k file downsampled to 44.1k and then upsampled to 768k via Davina or Blu2
 Native 44.1k file upsampled to 768k
  
 ... All using the same analog source (so no difference in mastering or any other source differences), and all using the same Chord technology from the start of the digitalisation process so differences will not be due to different ADC formats reacting differently to the Million taps.
  
 This will probably set Rob's research direction on how else to improve his Dave, if at all. He's already gone on record saying he was surprised at the improvement the Blu2 added, so who knows what else is in store!
  
 In short, this is not a wireless streaming product meant for the masses. It's something else entirely.


----------



## ray-dude

jelt2359 said:


> I don't think so. That's not the goal of Davina. Davina is really meant as an ADC- for Rob's uses, specifically, it allows him to test:
> 
> Native 768k file vs
> 768k file downsampled to 44.1k and then upsampled to 768k via Davina or Blu2
> ...


 
  
 Agreed.  You'll be able to pick up a MicroRendu and Roon license for ~ the cost of sales tax on the Davina.  No need to overload the feature list at the high end.  I suspect people will want to mix and match on the desktop active elements.  For the portable line (Mojo/Chord/etc), lots of value to a portable integrated streaming solution though (Poly and H-Poly will be very interesting)


----------



## Silvertone4

jelt2359 said:


> I don't think so. That's not the goal of Davina. Davina is really meant as an ADC- for Rob's uses, specifically, it allows him to test:
> 
> Native 768k file vs
> 768k file downsampled to 44.1k and then upsampled to 768k via Davina or Blu2
> ...





Thanks. Yes, I'm familiar with what Davina is. Actually, I thought its primary function was to introduced the M-scaler as a standalone product and the ADC was an added bonus, given the fact than I don't see a huge market for it.

Anyway, I just didn't know if Chord had opted to throw in wireless functionality to support streaming services since this feature is missing altogether from the their current product portfolio.

I have no use for the Blu MkII CD transport, even with the USB input, so I was hoping to just add the Davina/M-scaler as my last 'box' to my two channel rig.


ST


----------



## adyc

silvertone4 said:


> Thanks. Yes, I'm familiar with what Davina is. Actually, I thought its primary function was to introduced the M-scaler as a standalone product and the ADC was an added bonus, given the fact than I don't see a huge market for it.
> 
> Anyway, I just didn't know if Chord had opted to throw in wireless functionality to support streaming services since this feature is missing altogether from the their current product portfolio.
> 
> ...




Hopefully, next year there will be a Blu3 that includes USB and Poly. This will be perfect compliment to DAVE. It is superb value compared to dCS four boxes. Unfortunately, I can't wait for Poly addition. I will get a Blu2 first.


----------



## tunes

Forgot to ask, will this Toslink to MiniPlug have any advantage over a cheap $6 cable to connect my QP1R optical line out to the Hugo2?? If it just a digital signal, my understanding is that it either works and is decided or not. Some claim glass fibers are better than plastic or the opposite. Snake oil or fact?? See below site.

http://www.sysconcept.ca/product_info.php?products_id=365&osCsid=oq9tp7e2dcgtm73rjg0u2c8jq0


----------



## raypin

Mm..go for it. I've used the Sysconcept toslink. Reliable, durable and can be customized to the length you need. Or you can stick with the stock optical cables of the Hugo 2. Optical is optical and for as long as the tip is not damaged and it is properly cared for, there shouldn't be an issue with performance. You are invested already so why not invest in quality interconnects for a couple of dollars more?


----------



## x RELIC x

tunes said:


> Forgot to ask, will this Toslink to MiniPlug have any advantage over a cheap $6 cable to connect my QP1R optical line out to the Hugo2?? If it just a digital signal, my understanding is that it either works and is decided or not. Some claim glass fibers are better than plastic or the opposite. Snake oil or fact?? See below site.
> 
> http://www.sysconcept.ca/product_info.php?products_id=365&osCsid=oq9tp7e2dcgtm73rjg0u2c8jq0




No audible difference between glass or plastic. There is also different implementations of plastic so you can't lump plastic in to one category.

Basically the diffraction/dispersion of light within the optical cable will either transmit the full data for 24/192 (maximum for PCM over optical), or the cable will only transmit up to a certain amount of data due to reflections. The cable should not, in any way, affect the sound quality with optical transmission. You'll find some cable manufacturers claim a maximum data transmition of 24/96 through the cable, but a good cable can transmit 24/192 if the optical output is capable of 24/192, plastic or glass. 

Optical is unique because it's pulses of light instead of an electrical transmition (Voltage/Current) so it is, by nature, galvanically isolated and immune to RF and EMI finding their way through the cable and making their way to the audio components.

Sysconcept is a great optical cable manufacturer as their solution doesn't degrade the signal (regarding data transmission capability) when they're bent and they can make cables with a very tight radius. Be aware that the lens (the ends of the cable) can also be of poor quality and limit the data rate with optical cables. Typically, optical adaptors from most cheap manufacturers have poor lenses, but I trust Sysconcept's quality.


----------



## tunes

If Hugo2 is meant to be a portable DAC then why wasn't solid state storage or SD Cards integrated to allow it to be a DAP. For me I plan to use my QP1R as a storage device via optical line out to the HUGO2 for my HEK and use the QP1R alone as a DAP for my IEMs and WIFI to use TIDAL with my iPhone?? But why didn't Chord not integrate all of this into the Hugo??


----------



## miketlse

tunes said:


> If Hugo2 is meant to be a portable DAC then why wasn't solid state storage or SD Cards integrated to allow it to be a DAP. For me I plan to use my QP1R as a storage device via optical line out to the HUGO2 for my HEK and use the QP1R alone as a DAP for my IEMs and WIFI to use TIDAL with my iPhone?? But why didn't Chord not integrate all of this into the Hugo??


 

 Presumably because Chord plan to release the 2Go module, which will do for the Hugo 2, what the Poly will do for the Mojo.
  
 There have already been posts requesting that the 2Go includes, SD cards, and SSD memory, so you might as well request any functionality that you want included, whilst the 2Go is still on the drawing board.
 Chord listened to the feedback after CES, and do regard these headfi threads as a valuable source of feedback, that benefits their product designs.


----------



## Crashem

tunes said:


> If Hugo2 is meant to be a portable DAC then why wasn't solid state storage or SD Cards integrated to allow it to be a DAP. For me I plan to use my QP1R as a storage device via optical line out to the HUGO2 for my HEK and use the QP1R alone as a DAP for my IEMs and WIFI to use TIDAL with my iPhone?? But why didn't Chord not integrate all of this into the Hugo??




I wouldn't expect that anytime soon. While it is relatively simple to add storage capacity (seems to be enough empty space in Hugo to fit it), that isn't the show stopper. The issue is as soon as you add storage/playback ability, you now need to add functionality to control playback, add songs, manage music etc. Pretty playback interface for the device isn't that easy to do right. Hmm, how do I put it, the Chord devices aren't know for their pretty elegant displays. So once that is done, how do you add music, manage libraries, etc? Making anything approaching even all the functionality of iTunes would be highly challenging. Look at the auralic Aries, they had the device ready we'll before release as the app is what took forever to make,


----------



## kennyb123

Quote:


x relic x said:


> No audible difference between glass or plastic. There is also different implementations of plastic so you can't lump plastic in to one category.
> 
> Basically the diffraction/dispersion of light within the optical cable will either transmit the full data for 24/192 (maximum for PCM over optical), or the cable will only transmit up to a certain amount of data due to reflections. The cable should not, in any way, affect the sound quality with optical transmission. You'll find some cable manufacturers claim a maximum data transmition of 24/96 through the cable, but a good cable can transmit 24/192 if the optical output is capable of 24/192, plastic or glass.
> 
> Optical is unique because it's pulses of light instead of an electrical transmition (Voltage/Current) so it is, by nature, galvanically isolated and immune to RF and EMI finding their way through the cable and making their way to the audio components.


 
  
  Many years ago I was using a Kimber optical cable featuring plastic fibers.  Wireworld 6 Supernova, which features glass fibers, was being closed out, so I scooped up a cable just to satisfy my own curiosity.  The improvement over the Kimber optical was startling to me.  To date it remains one of the largest improvements I've heard from swapping a digital cable.
  
 I also tossed in a Radio Shack optical cable as well just to see if maybe there was something wrong with the Kimber.  It was indistinguishable from the Kimber, and just as easily beat by the Supernova.  In addition, a friend borrowed my Supernova and heard the same kinds of improvements in his system, so he ended up buying one himself.
   

 Not sure why there was such a difference as given the above there really shouldn't have been.  Maybe it had nothing to do with glass vs plastic and was more of a refection of something else WW was doing with their cable.  YMMV


----------



## music1st

Hi Guys
  
 Just received my copy of the HIFI Critic which had a one page review of the Dave. 
 The review said the Dave "certainly held its head high' against the £18,000 Naim NDS with 555PS DR power supply.
  
The conclusion was that the Chord Dave is certainly among the best he's heard...
"It is fluent, sounds sweet and has very good (but not class leading timing). It does everything one can ask of a DAC,
and has the mysterious possibility of delving into the future for the things one can't yet ask for!  Highly recommended!
  
The one thing that surprises me is the Dave was bested in terms of timing.  I know that timing is the badge of most all 
Naim products, but still it was the design focal point of Rob Watts when designing the DAVE.
  
Kerry


----------



## ecwl

I've been underwhelmed by a few issues of HiFi Critic but realized over time I just have different sonic preferences than them. They tend to favour R2R DACs and amplifiers that have quite a bit of 2nd order harmonic distortions which are not my cup of tea. R2R DACs I guess can create distortions that sound like great timing. Whatever people like. I think that's also why in their latest issue with their annual awards, Chord DAVE was only a recommended DAC but did not make it into their Audio excellence category.


----------



## Crgreen

I think these might be two slightly different senses of "timing". In respect of Naim gear, it's an emphasis on rhythm and phrasing, in the past possibly at the expense of other hi-fi factors like timbre and depth. I get the impression that Rob's talking about something rather more technical, although it does have an affect on such features, but also timbral accuracy and layering. Timing is something for which Martin Colloms has provided a sepertate rating for some years now. It's also possible that prolonged exposure to Naim kit will mean that most other brands don't quite match in that respect. As to which is more "accurate", that's another issue.


----------



## Triode User

You guys are correct is saying that at this level it is really down to personal preference. I have not heard the Naim but I have heard a lot of top end gear and I own a Dave. For me the Dave is the best I have heard and I am not particularly bothered if others do not score it more highly. Accuracy is a difficult thing to pin down but I have long ago learned to trust my own ears and to go with what seems best to me. It is my money after all. Maybe I just prefer the Dave sound rather than it being better. Who knows.


----------



## organicmac

As a recent subscriber to HiFi Critic and a very happy DAVE owner, I find much of what appears in HiFi Critic to be entertaining but highly idiosyncratic and with a very strong NAIM preference. I did not feel their 'review' of DAVE was careful or showed much serious attempt to analyse its capabilities fairly so I won't take it too seriously.


----------



## Crgreen

It's also very expensive. It's USP appears to be that there's no advertising, which is reflected in the price. I imagine most people would be happy paying less and skimming over the advertising pages.


----------



## JaZZ

crgreen said:


> I think these might be two slightly different senses of "timing". In respect of Naim gear, it's an emphasis on rhythm and phrasing, in the past possibly at the expense of other hi-fi factors like timbre and depth. I get the impression that Rob's talking about something rather more technical, although it does have an effect on such features, but also timbral accuracy and layering. Timing is something for which Martin Colloms has provided a sepertate rating for some years now. It's also possible that prolonged exposure to Naim kit will mean that most other brands don't quite match in that respect. As to which is more "accurate", that's another issue.


 
  
 I think your description is spot on. Rob's timing refers to instant starts and stops of transients thanks to the multi-tap WTA filter with greatly reduced smearing effects in the audio band, whereas the accentuated timing attributed to Naim DACs has more to do with the classic «pace, rhythm and timing» (PRAT).


----------



## music1st

jazz said:


> I think your description is spot on. Rob's timing refers to instant starts and stops of transients thanks to the multi-tap WTA filter with greatly reduced smearing effects in the audio band, whereas the accentuated timing attributed to Naim DACs has more to do with the classic «pace, rhythm and timing» (PRAT).


 
  
 OK What is the technical difference between the WTA implementation and the "exaqgerated" PRAT that seem ubiquitous in all Naim Gear.
  
 By the way, it would not surprise me if the Naim gear does ultimately exaggerate pace rhythm and timing. although I have never heard their gear in anything but show conditions.
  
 One would think that by now, it would have occurred to those that review audio, that the famous Naim P.R.A.T which is virtually unique to the brand yet shared by almost none of their competitors, might be artificial in nature.
  
 What's in a Naim indeed.


----------



## Mojo ideas

music1st said:


> OK What is the technical difference between the WTA implementation and the "exaqgerated" PRAT that seem ubiquitous in all Naim Gear.
> 
> By the way, it would not surprise me if the Naim gear does ultimately exaggerate pace rhythm and timing. although I have never heard their gear in anything but show conditions.
> 
> ...


 Indeed what is in a Naim I've been in this business a long time and I have a long memory,I can recall many years ago a particular well respected but rather pompous and enfactic reviewer. I won't name, giving a simply glorious review to a particular rather nondescript black box power amplifier. there was some talk at the time as to his involvement in the project . I had a chance to ask him directly. He denied any involment at all. However years passed and one day years later he offered for me to buy from him secondhand an Audio precision test system along with a rather old computer to control it. However on that computer lay some long forgotten files in them was the complete design for that same amplifier, he'd praised and reviewed so lavishly. I'm not saying he was totally corrupt and should never be trusted but it did make me think at that time to be wary of that particular reviewer all reviewers are not the same some work to the highest standards of integrity others unfortunately do not.


----------



## 514077

Just wondering:  PRAT?


----------



## Mediahound

uelong said:


> Just wondering:  PRAT?


 

 See:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/371771/what-is-prat


----------



## JaZZ

music1st said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > I think your description is spot on. Rob's timing refers to instant starts and stops of transients thanks to the multi-tap WTA filter with greatly reduced smearing effects in the audio band, whereas the accentuated timing attributed to Naim DACs has more to do with the classic «pace, rhythm and timing» (PRAT).
> ...


 
  
 To be honest, I don't think I've ever heard Naim gear. And if I had, I'd still have no idea what the cause of the specific Naim PRAT is. I don't even know if it's indeed an exaggeration.


----------



## 514077

mediahound said:


> uelong said:
> 
> 
> > Just wondering:  PRAT?
> ...


 
 Thanks for that.  Think I'll stick with Chord.  From what I got from that thread, it seems like a slippery term.


----------



## Christer

jazz said:


> To be honest, I don't think I've ever heard Naim gear. And if I had, I'd still have no idea what the cause of the specific Naim PRAT is. I don't even know if it's indeed an exaggeration.


 

 Imho what really matters is RESOLUTION, at all levels, and in all aspects of the term, ie how well a product resolves all the information captured at the recording sessions.
 PRAT is simply yet another "hyped term" invented by reviewers who are mainly listening to pop /rock music and bears little reference to real acoustic music and the most accurate reproduction of complex symphonic and full scale operatic music which again imho is still the ONLY material that will REALLY be able to  sort "the wheat from the chaff".
 In NAIM's defence I have to say that although mainly focussed on pop/rock they have also made some pretty good recordings of acoustic music, at least in the days of  analogue recordings.
 Like for example MF and Gryphon ,they have also grasped the importance of all the  power needed to accurately reproduce large scale acoustic music and make some of the most powerful amps in the business.
 But Dave is one of  few consumer DACs I have auditioned that comes very close to mic feed via headphones directly connected to it.


----------



## 7ryder

mojo ideas said:


> Indeed what is in a Naim I've been in this business a long time and I have a long memory,I can recall many years ago a particular well respected but rather pompous and enfactic reviewer. I won't name, giving a simply glorious review to a particular rather nondescript black box power amplifier. there was some talk at the time as to his involvement in the project . I had a chance to ask him directly. He denied any involment at all. However years passed and one day years later he offered for me to buy from him secondhand an Audio precision test system along with a rather old computer to control it. However on that computer lay some long forgotten files in them was the complete design for that same amplifier, he'd praised and reviewed so lavishly. I'm not saying he was totally corrupt and should never be trusted but it did make me think at that time to be wary of that particular reviewer all reviewers are not the same some work to the highest standards of integrity others unfortunately do not.


 
 While I'm not sure what this has to do with Naim and PRAT, given that reviewers and manufacturers know each other so well and there is the old boys network in your industry, I'm not surprised


----------



## rkt31

prat is mainly related with signature of sound and it has nothing to do with correct starting and stopping of notes. chord dacs have that correct timing of notes courtesy WTA ( watts time aligned algorithm) using large number of taps . take an example of mojo which has that correct timing of notes which you can instantly feel through a well recorded piano piece of music , still the overall sound signature of mojo is on warmish side. so prat in a way a sound signature which may or may not have correct timing of notes but has a bit specific sound signature which mimics a slight smily EQ sound, slightly less mid bass and slightly accentuated high frequencies.


----------



## x RELIC x

WTA= Watts *Transient* Aligned


----------



## tunes

miketlse said:


> Presumably because Chord plan to release the 2Go module, which will do for the Hugo 2, what the Poly will do for the Hugo 2. Would have to have at least 400GB of storage and ideally run from SD cards and not a hard drive.
> 
> There have already been posts requesting that the 2Go includes, SD cards, and SSD memory, so you might as well request any functionality that you want included, whilst the 2Go is still on the drawing board.
> Chord listened to the feedback after CES, and do regard these headfi threads as a valuable source of feedback, that benefits their product designs.




Until the Hugo poly comes out, what is the best portable solution to send FLAC files from a DAP type device with at least 400 GB of storage preferably on solid state microSD cards and optical out to the Huho2. It would have to have a user friendly interface like iTunes and be rechargable. If the HUGO 2 sounds much better than my QP1R then no point keeping it just as a storage device. Anyone have any ideas. If it could have Wifi for streaming TIDAL to the HUGO2, even better.


----------



## miketlse

tunes said:


> Until the Hugo poly comes out, what is the best portable solution to send FLAC files


 
  
 Around CES time I suggested that the Mojo Poly could also be used with a USB cable as an input to the Hugo 2.
 John Franks agreed - so this is one solution.
  
 The cheapest alternative short term solution is the Shanling M1.
  
 Otherwise you can use other daps as a transport, but they will cost more.


----------



## 514077

tunes said:


> miketlse said:
> 
> 
> > Presumably because Chord plan to release the 2Go module, which will do for the Hugo 2, what the Poly will do for the Hugo 2. Would have to have at least 400GB of storage and ideally run from SD cards and not a hard drive.
> ...


 
 If they keep accessability in mind, such as arrow keys for function, that'd be great.  I have a couple of 256G SD cards I wouldn't mind having a place  to stick them.  And if they need to put a touchscreen on it, no big deal as long as there's other ways to operate it.  Then H2 might end up being the portable of choice.


----------



## esimms86

Still no word yet on shipping timetable for the Blu2 but my dealer now tells me that Dave is available in the US for $10,600.


----------



## Toolman

esimms86 said:


> Still no word yet on shipping timetable for the Blu2 but my dealer now tells me that Dave is available in the US for $10,600.




Indeed prices for DAVE have gone down in recent weeks which makes them a much sweeter deal now


----------



## Triode User

toolman said:


> Indeed prices for DAVE have gone down in recent weeks which makes them a much sweeter deal now


 

 If that's really true then I suggest you buy now. There has been hype that Hugo2 has a 'Dave' filter and is 'almost as good as Dave' but I expect that to subside once the Hugo2 starts shipping. I think potential buyers for Dave might be holding back until they can suss out Hugo2 but I suspect they will return to Dave once they have been able to compare it side to side with a Hugo2.


----------



## analogmusic

About PRAT Naim and Chord, this is a public comparison 
  
  
 Specifically 
  
 "The QBD76 doesn't always sound easy on the ear like Unison Research's Unico CDE does; neither does it produce rich-sounding or warm results. No, it's all about fluidity, naturalness and the kind of cohesion that only the very best turntables can manage.

_*Most digital players, even great ones such as the Naim CDS3/555PS we use as reference, sound slightly stilted in comparison.*_


 Read more at http://www.whathifi.com/chord-electronics/qbd76/review#ujwy1yFmXTxJRjQJ.99


----------



## Kamil21

organicmac said:


> As a recent subscriber to HiFi Critic and a very happy DAVE owner, I find much of what appears in HiFi Critic to be entertaining but highly idiosyncratic and with a very strong NAIM preference. I did not feel their 'review' of DAVE was careful or showed much serious attempt to analyse its capabilities fairly so I won't take it too seriously.





FWIW, I also follow HiFi Critic and am a Dave owner. I've also owned Naim and other top end Dacs in my lifetime. The Dave review seemed somehow rushed compared to some other favorite brands reviewed by the magazine. Also, some of the newer reviewers do not seem as meticulous in their review as say Martin Colloms, the editor.

Where I would not argue with the magazine is the not so glowing comment on Dave's soundstage, which if one were to put into the absolute context of the M Scalar, is quite correct.

Every reviewer, manufacturer or owner will fool themselves into thinking that no other product out there can better their best product in hand (and others are crap) but inevitably a new model (like M Scaler ) comes along that betters that. 

After all, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.


----------



## x RELIC x

triode user said:


> If that's really true then I suggest you buy now. There has been hype that Hugo2 has a 'Dave' filter and is 'almost as good as Dave' but I expect that to subside once the Hugo2 starts shipping. I think potential buyers for Dave might be holding back until they can suss out Hugo2 but I suspect they will return to Dave once they have been able to compare it side to side with a Hugo2.




The Hugo2 doesn't have a 'DAVE' filter, it's currently a Hugo filter (meaning Hugo2) and the name will change, likely to incisive filter as it uses the full WTA vs the 'Mojo' filter using only WTA-1 and 16FS (the 'Mojo' filter is still a step up over Hugo1). I only mention this so other readers don't look for a 'DAVE' filter on the Hugo2 and get disappointed.

The Hugo2 is _closer_ to the DAVE vs the Hugo1 technically and tonally according to Rob, but still not in the same category. I agree with you..... Hugo2 will not be a DAVE.


----------



## Triode User

x relic x said:


> The Hugo2 doesn't have a 'DAVE' filter, it's currently a Hugo filter (meaning Hugo2) and the name will change, likely to incisive filter as it uses the full WTA vs the 'Mojo' filter using only WTA-1 and 16FS (the 'Mojo' filter is still a step up over Hugo1). *I only mention this so other readers don't look for a 'DAVE' filter on the Hugo2 and get disappointed.*
> 
> The Hugo2 is _closer_ to the DAVE vs the Hugo1 technically and tonally according to Rob, but still not in the same category. I agree with you..... Hugo2 will not be a DAVE.


 
 Yep, I know all that and was just reiterating the mixture of hype and wishful thinking that is going on with Hugo2.
  
 Its not just about the taps and filters. It is also about the whole Dave package inside, including power supply etc, that gives it the performance advantage.


----------



## analogmusic

I do remember reading Rob Watts saying that in the digital world, more complexity is needed to make digital sound more musical.
  
 I do admire Rob Watts single minded determination to make his musical dream come true, the Hugo was the first digital source which worked for him, and indeed to my ears, it does for me too.
  
 Other companies using off the shelf DAC chips, like R2R, or indeed other delta-sigma chips, sorry, but I'm not going to pay that kind of money for those machines, as fine as they are.
  
 I found something interesting, in that many people who bought very expensive streamers, still end up using a turntable like LP 12.
  
 The custom FGPA, and Pulse Array DAC designed by Rob, that approach works for me musically, to the point where I don't particularly care about Vinyl anymore
  
 Indeed there is an album by Billy Idol (BFI Live) which is only available on Vinyl or Tidal (No CD), and for the first time in my life, I was sad to see I can't buy it on CD.
  
 I haven't made any effort to buy it on Vinyl..... because Mojo and Dave play the Tidal version with all the emotion, grace, and fluidity intact, why would I need the Vinyl...?
  
 I do understand where the hi-fi critic review is coming from, but PRAT is not the gold standard that I would measure a digital source by.  Yes some machines can play rock music very well, and are rhythmically magnificent, but there is more to music than Rhythm and Timing. I don't have the cash to buy multiple sources (including an expensive Vinyl rig) like for example one for rock music, another for Jazz music.
  
 I wanted one machine only that does everything. And that is Mojo/Hugo (and Dave) for me.
  
 For me the gold standard is real live music. It isn't all about the rhythm only. There is more to music than that - like emotional aspect of the note, tone, timbre and whether the music can hold your attention or not. And Rob Watts approach with multiple taps, and also pulse array custom DAC with resolution down to nano seconds in terms of timing, that is what it took to really bring the gap between live music and recorded music much smaller. 
  
 As he said, live music has immense variations in terms of timing, pitch, timbre, and it really takes immense processing power to even attempt to reproduce the huge complexity of real musical instruments.


----------



## esimms86

Taj Mahal also has a well received new album out in vinyl only. And then there's all those recordings that never made it to CD(or digital download, for that matter).

I wonder if Rob has ever paired the Dave/Blu2 combo with a beamforming system. I haven't had the good fortune to hear a beamforming system but, if advance reports are even close to true, bf plus Dave/Blu2 could be the holy grail for listening to recorded music.


----------



## JaZZ

esimms86 said:


> Taj Mahal also has a well received new album out in vinyl only. And then there's all those recordings that never made it to CD(or digital download, for that matter).
> 
> I wonder if Rob has ever paired the Dave/Blu2 combo with a beamforming system. I haven't had the good fortune to hear a *beamforming system* but, if advance reports are even close to true, bf plus Dave/Blu2 could be the holy grail for listening to recorded music.


 
  
 Care to explain what exactly you have in mind?


----------



## jelt2359

analogmusic said:


> I do remember reading Rob Watts saying that in the digital world, more complexity is needed to make digital sound more musical.
> 
> I do admire Rob Watts single minded determination to make his musical dream come true, the Hugo was the first digital source which worked for him, and indeed to my ears, it does for me too.
> 
> ...


 
 Coming from a guy whose nick is analogmusic, that says a LOT!
  
 You should rename yourself to digitalmusic


----------



## esimms86

.





jazz said:


> Care to explain what exactly you have in mind?




Google "Holoplot gmbh" for a primer on beamforming audio. Then imagine using Dave/Blu2 as the source for such a system. While Holoplot promises to be beamforming on steroids, the yarra 3dx crowd sourcing campaign due in May promises to be beamforming audio for the "average" home system.


----------



## esimms86

Art Dudley just today posted a few paragraphs on the Montreal Audio Fest 2017. For a quick read go to www.stereophile.com. He very briefly waxes poetic on the joys of listening to Dave/Blu2 in the Bluebird Music suite. He also informs us that John Atkinson's review of Dave will be appearing in the June edition of Stereophile.


----------



## EVOLVIST

DAVE and tubes/valves? 

So, I’ve been trying to wrap my head around the combo of DAVE and tube/valve amps and headphone amps. There is no doubt that many people find tubes to be pleasing to the ear. Moreover, I understand that 2nd order harmonics – what instruments naturally produce, among other harmonics – are not always captured in recordings, especially (or more like, predominantly) in the digital age. Indeed, many have said that instead of instrument’s natural harmonics being present in a recording, with digital, transistor-based recordings, odd-order harmonics has been added by the recording process, itself, making more of a strident and/or thin sound. 

Right. At least to my understanding, this is what I’ve come to believe.

Now, with a product like DAVE one of the major draws is that we are now working with vanishingly low distortion, to the point of nearly un-measurable noise floor levels. One of the primary principles, therein, is that if we are rid of all distortions, and the original wav is reconstructed in a way where timing, transients, timbre, small signals, depth, etc. are now restored to what was originally captured on tape, even on DAT and DAWs, the summit of audio nirvana is more clearly in sight. However, some would argue not against the principle, but if you take a recording – let’s say Bruce Springsteen’s "Born in the USA" album – which is a poster child of highly digital audio – and even if DAVE + M-Scaler now fully renders the 16-bits, what you’ve now done is to render all of the flaws, as well as some of the good bits, to a heightened state. The flaws might outweigh the good, but no matter; the tech has set out to do what it’s supposed to do, just as the DAVE would re-render the most sublime analogue recording of Mozart’s "Cosi Fan Tutti."

These are the givens about the principles and tech behind DAVE, yes? Even if you’re someone like me, who often enjoys hearing flaws in a recording, it’s still examining an atrocity, as people who will watch the aftermath of a traffic accident even though we know we should look away.

So, Chord operates entirely in the transistor domain. Chord is currently working on a “digital amp” that even goes one better, to only amplify the signal coming from their product, with nominal distortion. Chord wouldn’t, and couldn’t, operate with tubes, as they never have and never will, because it cuts their foundation. With tubes, then, gone are the small signals, the more accurate timbre, the precise timing, et all? Or, are these distortions produced by tubes/valves merely a more musical sheath by which these attributes can live within?
I suppose that’s what I’m getting at. We have a primary signal coming out of DAVE, low in distortion, but what distortions are the DAVE supposed to kill here? If tube “distortion” is only a distortion because there’s no other name to call them, is it now a mask that covers the signal, or, does it get in the way of all that’s sacred to the Chord tech?

Somewhere hereabouts I recall Rob talking about how pleasing he has heard DAVE with a quality set of tubes feeding speakers. That is to say, is the praise merely because it’s a pleasing sound, or is it optimal if one can find some tubes that actually compliment the DAVE?

In the past my experience with tubes have been a mixed bag. Mostly, through headphones, I’ve cringed at the tube sound, as sounding “flubby” or “bloated.” That’s with cans, though. The path from the tubes to my ears might have been too short, feeding my ears a “warmth” that was too close for comfort. Recently, I also placed my DAVE in a friend’s system, with these very expensive (and rare) restored mono blocks from the ‘60s. I can’t remember what the brand was, but they sounded fairly okay. Really, the system sounded diffuse, as if it was slightly veiled and spread wide. On the other hand, once upon a time I owned a cheap Aune T1 with one Russian made 6922 in it. It was a little DAC and headphone amp, with a tube sound that didn’t sound flubby at all. I bought a fairly expensive vintage tube to put in it, and then the tubey sound came out. I regretted that purchase.

So, yeah, personal preference and subjectivity aside, what do tubes/valves do to the DAVE’s signal? Do tubes defeat the effect that the DAVE was made for, or can the tubes add to the DAVE’s magic without compromising the tech?


----------



## Triode User

I use tubes for my speaker amps, not for any warmth or traditional 'old style' tube sound. I use them because I haven't heard anything better.
  
 I first got into this hifi game in the late '80s and have been playing around with it since then with ever more expensive kit. I have tried many well respected (in fact revered) power amps but was never really satisfied with the mid range or high frequencies. It seemed closed in and generally slow. I suspected my speakers, wires, wife, dog, in fact everything got the blame. After all, it couldn't be the amps could it because their spec was so fantastic and all the press said how wonderful they were!
  
 But then I tried my current 845 push pull monobloc tube amps and it was if a veil had been lifted from the music. It became sweet, transparent, musical and just a joy to listen to. Many times I would start listening to a classical concert on the radio and find myself drawn in to the music and stay up way later than intended just to hear it to the end.
  
 I work from home and listen to my speaker system maybe 8 to 10 hrs per day. Each of those hours is a joy. Every day. Every week. Every year.
  
 Friends hear that I have tubes and they are interested because it's sort of outside their experience and also they have spent many thousands of pounds on solid state amps so they think they must have good sounding systems. But I have lost count of the number of times I have watched their looks of disbelief when they hear the first few minutes through my tube system. And then the many hours of them wanting to hear all their favourite music through my system because they were hearing detail and sheer musicality that they hadn't heard before on their CDs. The clarity and realism of instruments is often comment on. They all go away vowing to try valves.
  
 That's my story of Dave and tubes. The next chapter will be Blu2 + Dave + tubes and I expect it to continue in the same vein.
  
 Don't just look at specifications, use your ears.


----------



## bmichels

triode user said:


> I use tubes for my speaker amps, not for any warmth or traditional 'old style' tube sound. I use them because I haven't heard anything better.
> 
> Don't just look at specifications, use your ears.


 
  
 Please can you provide more infos and comments about those wonderful tube monoblocks as well as infos about the speakers you use with those amps ?   Do you use a separate Pre-amp or do you use DAVE as a pre ? 
  
 did you also considered the "big" MB81 mono instead of the MB845 ? their "big" tubes look awesome !


----------



## jelt2359

Those 845 look incredible. Also keen to hear 45 tubes if I ever get the chance!

I like tubes for their soundstage and microdetail, which seems to benefit from the simplicity of most tube circuits. They also tend to have a more even treble. Some tube amps have a warm and lush presentation but not all. 

This reminds me of the "external pre or not" debate- fact is volume has to be attenuated somehow, sometimes digital is better and sometimes analog is better!


----------



## Triode User

bmichels said:


> Please can you provide more infos and comments about those wonderful tube monoblocks as well as infos about the speakers you use with those amps ?   Do you use a separate Pre-amp or do you use DAVE as a pre ?
> 
> did you also considered the "big" MB81 mono instead of the MB845 ? their "big" tubes look awesome !


 

 In answering your request I will have to crave the mods indulgence in letting me digress slightly from the DAVE theme but as can be seen, the whole system is arranged around a Dave being the central star of the show (and most photos do have a Dave in them!)
  
 I feed the Dave into a Music First Classic V2 Silver passive pre-amp which utilises silver wired transformers. I have tried the Dave straight into the tube power amps and it loses a lot of the wonderful Dave sound. This is not a marginal thing. I know the specs say this should not be the case but my ears say different (by a big margin). The Dave is sat on the Music First Pre-Amp in the photos. The pre amp also comes in a version using copper wire in the transformers but it it loses a lot of openness and transparency compared to the version with silver wire in the transformers.
  
 The power amps are Icon Audio MB845Mk2M monos with 6SL7 and 6SN7 signal tubes and 845 power tubes. I have installed WE845 replica 845 tubes, Shuguang Treasure 6SL7 and Psvane CV181T series Mk2 (6SN7). The output transformers are VERY big (and heavy) in order to cope with the low frequency power output from the tubes.
  
 I have seen the MB81 monos (I live only 1/2 hr from the factory and they are very friendly) but those are ridiculous!!!! The push pull version outputs 250w into 8 ohms.
  
 My main speakers are Spendor S100 3 way speakers made circa 1992. I have owned them from new and all I have done is replace the tweeters last year on a like for like basis. My secondary speakers in my study are Living Voice OBX RW3 speakers. In the background can be seen some Odeon Rigoletto horn loaded speakers from Germany that I am trying out.
  
 I am sat here listening to the Dave through the tube amps and it is wonderful with a lovely open sound but with a weighty authority to the lower register. It is just glorious. I wouldn't change anything except for adding the ordered Blu2 when it arrives!!
  
 Digital cables are nothing special but have good quality plugs, speaker cables and interconnects are Missing Link Cryo ref silver. Power cables are the stock cheap type as supplied by the manufacturers.
  
 All items are made by small UK companies apart from the Odeon speakers which are a small German company.
  
 I hope you find that interesting.


----------



## jelt2359

Spendor! A friend of mine has the D7 with dave, marvellous sounding. I like the air. He likes it a lot with sablon power cords, says it makes a huge difference.


----------



## dmance

@Triode User
I notice you set your 845 Monoblocks right on the carpet. I was just at the Montreal audio show where we had a similar setup..and we were trying things to improve the sound. The Nordost rep gave us a box of their Sort Kone products to try. I can't explain it..But the system came to life when we put them under the amps. Dramatically so.
Just FYI.


----------



## bmichels

triode user said:


> In answering your request I will have to crave the mods indulgence in letting me digress slightly from the DAVE theme but as can be seen, the whole system is arranged around a Dave being the central star of the show (and most photos do have a Dave in them!)
> 
> I feed the Dave into a Music First Classic V2 Silver passive pre-amp which utilises silver wired transformers. I have tried the Dave straight into the tube power amps and it loses a lot of the wonderful Dave sound. This is not a marginal thing. I know the specs say this should not be the case but my ears say different (by a big margin). The Dave is sat on the Music First Pre-Amp in the photos. The pre amp also comes in a version using copper wire in the transformers but it it loses a lot of openness and transparency compared to the version with silver wire in the transformers.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks a lot for all those informations.  Very interesting ! a marvelous system you have ! 
  
 I just wonder if the Icon Audio integrated Stereo 845PP sound as good as your MB845 MK2 monos blocks while also providing an integrated pré-amp ?


----------



## 7ryder

I use tubes with my DAVE too...but the tubes are in the preamp - VTL TL7.5 Series III - and I use a solid state amp (Hegel H30). Speakers are Vivid Audio B-1 supplemented with a pair of JLAudio f112 subs (I use an analog parametric EQ to blend). Room is treated, I use Stillpoints, HRS, etc. for vibration etc. Shunyata power conditioning, power cables, blah, blah blah and it sounds very good.
  
 Regarding tubes - some manufacturers make gear that has a "tubey" sound, others don't. VTL gear doesn't sound "tubey"...well, at least their preamps, I haven't heard their amps.

 I know this is sacrilege around here, but I don't own headphones anymore, so I have never used DAVE with headphones and can't comment how it sounds when used that way.
  
 Even so, I don't think anyone can make blanket statements that DAVE can only be used one way in a system, especially a speaker system. Ultimately how it sounds to the owner is what counts.


----------



## bmichels

jelt2359 said:


> Spendor! A friend of mine has the D7 with dave, marvellous sounding. I like the air. He likes it a lot with sablon power cords, says it makes a huge difference.


 
  
 What is "the D7" ?


----------



## Triode User

bmichels said:


> What is "the D7" ?


 

 Spendor D7 speaker.


----------



## rgs9200m

Theory is theory as they say. But the Apex Pinnacle and RSA B52 amps sound so glorious, tube distortion and all, intellectual arguments for me just go out the window. Just my 2 cents, and I'm not dismissing anyone's preferences or fine discussions here one bit.
 [Edit: this is using a Hugo TT and an EMM cdp as my sources.]


----------



## JaZZ

Theory can only explain so much. If a sound pleases your ears is out of reach for any theory. But a pleasing sound is not the equalivalent of high fidelity.
  
 My own theory, based on theory, practical experiences and experiments, sais that any detour in the signal path can only make the sound more forgiving (to existing imperfections in the chain) and euphonic, but not more accurate. It would take serious (read: qualifiable) extra circumstances to justify the notion of an objective improvement by the detour. Possible synergetic effects also belong to the mentioned «forgivingness».
  
 Moreover, tube amps aren't necessarily less accurate than solid-state amps – it really depends on the implementation. On the other hand, solid-state technology offers the better precondition for neutrality and accuracy in my book.


----------



## EVOLVIST

But we really aren't answering the question are we, concerning the DAVE's remit, and how said remit might or might not be sqaushed by the "distortions" inherent in tubes, yeah?

I'm not talking specs here, nor am I talking the subjective love of tubes or not. The claims are simple that DAVE is said to do X & X. Most of us here these things. The DAVE is amazing! But, again, by introducing tubes into the equation does the tube "distortion" merely shellac the phenomenal signal that DAVE produces, sounding appealing as tubes do to many, or does this added distortion screw with all of the small signals, timbres, timing, etc. that we purchased a DAVE for? 

Really, I'm not sure that the question is easily answered, nor am I sure that Chord would even comment.

I think these are very valid questions, though. I have heard many DACs that are very musical and pleasing, but not all together accurate. Chord comes the closest to my ears.

Maybe somebody says, "To hell with accuracy. I want what sounds pleasing above all else," and that's an extremely valid sentiment (as valid as anything else). But then I think, if tubes somehow defeats one or more of DAVE's remits (which I'm not saying they do), then why doesn't one spend their money on great "musical" DAC and put your money elsewhere? Hmmmm... 

I mean, doesn't Chord as a company shun tubes for a reason? Yet for all I know John Franks could be sitting up in his house, smoking jacket on, drink in hand, with Icon tube mono blocks being fed by a iFi DAC into some bookshelf speakers. Who knows, eh?


----------



## Triode User

evolvist said:


> But we really aren't answering the question are we, ....................


 
 Maybe not but you ARE missing the point. Chord sell an amazing DAC and once it leaves the dealer we can do with it as we please. I happen to get most enjoyment from using it in my system. Others will mate it with different kit. As long as Chord continue to develop their DACs I will keep buying them just as I have ordered a Blu2. Who knows, if I like one of their amps one day I might buy that.
  
 But really, it is not any deeper than that and is a bit of a pointless discussion as far as I'm concerned. Sorry and all that but at the end of the day it's HiFi. It's a hobby. Nothing more. If you lived here you could come and listen to my system and hopefully you would say it sounds luddy fantastic. That's really all I'm bothered about. I have already said I listen to it for at least 8 hours a day. When I try new kit in it that doesn't sound good then I don't bother turning on the system. Then I know not to buy that piece of kit. It could be more accurate for all I care but I won't buy it.


----------



## EVOLVIST

triode user said:


> Maybe not but you ARE missing the point. Chord sell an amazing DAC and once it leaves the dealer we can do with it as we please. I happen to get most enjoyment from using it in my system. Others will mate it with different kit. As long as Chord continue to develop their DACs I will keep buying them just as I have ordered a Blu2. Who knows, if I like one of their amps one day I might buy that.
> 
> But really, it is not any deeper than that and is a bit of a pointless discussion as far as I'm concerned. Sorry and all that but at the end of the day it's HiFi. It's a hobby. Nothing more. If you lived here you could come and listen to my system and hopefully you would say it sounds luddy fantastic. That's really all I'm bothered about. I have already said I listen to it for at least 8 hours a day. When I try new kit in it that doesn't sound good then I don't bother turning on the system. Then I know not to buy that piece of kit. It could be more accurate for all I care but I won't buy it.



 


Well, I don't think I'm missing the point, but I see your point as clear as day. I mean, in here, the regulars who post here, and in other Chord threads - those with the experiential knowledge - I trust these opinions, and for the most part your ears. So much, in fact, that about an hour ago I ordered this little box.

http://www.iconaudio.com/main-products/stereo-60-mk-iiim-2/ 

I wanted to order the 845 PP, but I couldn't find one in the States to audition. I think this should give me at least an idea. It checks all of the boxes, at least on paper, and the reviews are good (what little there are).

There's also this little guy, which, again, reads well on paper:

http://www.decware.com/newsite/TORIIJR.html 

I might as well do some experimenting now, as I'm moving to speakers with my DAVE, yeah?


----------



## 514077

Has there ever been a comparison between PSAudio FPGA DACs and Chord's?


----------



## JaZZ

evolvist said:


> But we really aren't answering the question are we, concerning the DAVE's remit, and how said remit might or might not be sqaushed by the "distortions" inherent in tubes, yeah?
> 
> I'm not talking specs here, nor am I talking the subjective love of tubes or not. The claims are simple that DAVE is said to do X & X. Most of us here these things. The DAVE is amazing! But, again, by introducing tubes into the equation does the tube "distortion" merely shellac the phenomenal signal that DAVE produces, sounding appealing as tubes do to many, or does this added distortion screw with all of the small signals, timbres, timing, etc. that we purchased a DAVE for?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Unfortunately my experience with tube amps is limited. Currently I have a (modified) Mapletree Ear++ and a (modified) Stax SRM-T1 at my disposal. Both fall short compared to my best solid-state amps (Meier Audio Corda Symphony, Opera, Stax SRM-727II) to my ears, and clearly so. They provide 40% of DAVE's goodness at best. With the solid-state amps it may be 65% (hard to tell for the electrostatic amp, though). However, that's not a representative comparison, although it's certainly not overly distorted by the price levels.


----------



## rgs9200m

I seem to remember a set of 3 alternative possible legitimate criteria The Absolute Sound (Harry Pearson maybe?) came up with to rate an audio system (or maybe it was just a component or a speaker, I forgot) but it was either
 1. It should faithfully recreate the live musical event; or
 2. It should faithfully render the signal it is fed; or
 3. It should sound pleasing.


----------



## Sonic77

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Home
›News
› Chord Announces Poly, Blu MkII and Hugo2
 


Chord Announces Poly, Blu MkII and Hugo2 Tue, 28 Mar 2017
 Bluebird Music today announced updated delivery expectations and US and Canadian retail prices. 
 Customers can now pre-order these products from their authorized Chord Electronics dealers. Please note shipping dates are estimated based on our best information at the time. Please check back with this page as delivery estimates will be updated here as soon as any further information becomes available.
  
Hugo 2




 Hugo 2 is a powerful DAC and headphone amp that builds on the ground-breaking original Hugo. 
  
 Advances in digital technology, including the latest FPGAs and WTA (Watts Transient Aligned) filters, have enabled the next-generation version, Hugo 2 which features substantially improved sonic performance and other new features.
 Hugo 2 offers improved ease of use for both at home and on-the-go applications and its improved line-level operation and full-function remote control adds real flexibility in full-size and desktop systems.
 Four digital inputs (optical, coaxial and HD USB) plus new extended-range Bluetooth are offered. Hugo 2 offers high-resolution file playback up to 768kHz and up to DSD512 (Octa DSD), via its HD USB input. Analogue outputs include 2x RCA, plus 3.5mm and 6.35mm headphone outputs.
 A new four-function switch filter offers a useful degree of user-selectable frequency-shaping, bringing warm and soft or transparent and incisive presentations, giving additional flexibility and user control. For headphone-listening, Hugo 2 retains the popular digital crossfeed function of the original.
 Hugo 2 features Chord’s custom coded FPGA, 49,152 Taps, 7 hour battery life, 768kHz Micro USB input, 384kHz Coax Input, Native DSD support, DSD512 Native and supports headphones up to 800 Ohms.
 Hugo 2 is expected to ship in May 2017. Hugo 2 will retail for $2,195 US and $2,895 Canadian.
  
Blu MkII




 The Blu MkII is a compact, FPGA-based upsampling CD transport which offers the world’s most advanced filter technology. Used with DAVE, the combination delivers class-leading CD sound quality and technical performance. 
 The Blu MkII upscaling CD transport sets new standards for CD sound quality by using the very latest FPGA technology to implement advanced proprietary filtering and upscaling techniques. This next-generation CD transport incorporates a powerful new FPGA core with extraordinary capability. 
 Blu MkII’s sophisticated WTA (Watts Transient Alignment) filtering and upscaling algorithms can output digital data at 705.6kHz (16 x CD’s 44.1kHz native resolution). When partnered with the DAVE DAC/preamp, with its 705.6kHz-capable digital inputs, the Blu MkII sets a new technical benchmark for CD performance, while redefining sound quality from the medium.
 At the heart of the Blu MkII lies an enormously powerful Xilinx FPGA. Rob Watts’ (Chord’s Digital Design Consultant) has used this to create his exclusive WTA M-Scaler technology, which incorporates the most advanced filter of its kind in the world. The Xilinx FPGA has also enabled a key breakthrough in tap-length (the technical indicator of how complex the interpolation filter is) taking Blu MkII to an unprecedented 1,015,808 taps.
 A comprehensive suite of high-performance connectivity is offered and the Blu MkII also features a BNC S/PDIF digital input, meaning that it can also be used a standalone high-performance upsampler, for use with other digital sources.
 Further features include Chord Electronics’ legendary proprietary high-frequency switching power supply and a dedicated CD-only laser mechanism for an uncompromising performance.
 Blu 2 is expected in ship in May 2017. US retail price will be $9,988, and Canadian price will be $12,995.
  
Poly




 Poly enables the Mojo headphone amp/DAC to function as a fully-fledged high-resolution wireless network music player, streamer and SD card playback device, with wireless playback and control from smartphones.
 Poly is a revolutionary streaming module for Mojo and is based on a condensed high-level PC, with data server, DLNA receiver, Wi-Fi hub, Bluetooth module and SD card reader/player functionality, plus highly sophisticated software. Poly enables wireless audio playback from smartphones and for the first time, negates the need for a cable between the two devices.
 Poly acts as a Wi-Fi and Bluetooth hub and can access music in a number of ways including streaming over Wi-Fi, network storage devices (NAS) and collections stored on SD cards (using MPD). Bluetooth connectivity and AirPlay functionality provide real flexibility with smartphones and enable multiple Mojo/Poly combinations to be used throughout the home, providing a high-quality multi-room streaming playback solution.
 Poly removes the original need for a wired link between the smartphone and Mojo, and is controlled wirelessly from Android and iOS apps on your phone. When connected to Mojo, Poly conveniently slips into pockets, bags and handbags — it doesn’t need to be hand-carried or regularly checked like other players.
 Poly is compatible with the latest high-resolution-audio file types and supports PCM files up to 768kHz resolution and DSD64 to DSD512 (Octa-DSD). Poly’s high-quality SD card reader/player frees up smartphone memory and storage, so vast libraries no longer need be kept locally on phones.
 Poly integrates with advanced music players such as Roon (excluding SD access) and supported file types (at the time of writing) include: ACC, WAV, FLAC, AIFF, OGG VORBIS, ALAC, WMA and MP3. The device includes a rechargeable LiPo battery giving around nine hours playback from a sub-four-hour charge using the device’s fast-charging circuit; both Mojo and Poly can be simultaneously charged.
 Poly 2 is expected in ship Summer 2017. Poly will retail for $629 US and $799 Canadian.
  
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  Shipping Update.


----------



## JaZZ

rgs9200m said:


> I seem to remember a set of 3 alternative possible legitimate criteria The Absolute Sound (Harry Pearson maybe?) came up with to rate an audio system (or maybe it was just a component or a speaker, I forgot) but it was either
> 1. It should faithfully recreate the live musical event; or
> 2. It should faithfully render the signal it is fed; or
> 3. It should sound pleasing.


 
  
 Thanks for that. It's a good basis for arguments.
  
 Point 3 is an important point. For my sonic and musical preferences it should be called: «It should sound good.» I want the music to sound touching, honest instead of superficial and euphonic. In this interpretation, point three («good sound») is probably the most important one for me. That doesn't mean I don't value my own interpretation higher than others (which may find «pleasing» a matching characterization), it's just important that euphony isn't the only possible form of pleasing sound.
  
 Point 1 is probably an indispensable precondition for «good sound» in my understanding. Although I actually don't look for a concert-hall-like experience through my headphones (and speakers – a thing of the past, though), but everything else than natural instrument timbres and vocals has turned out to come with some irritating sonic components. Moreover a spatially flat presentation represents an irritation itself, too, and an unwanted limitation of the musical and sonic expression. On the other hand, I gladly renounce the aural perspective of a spectator at the venue in favor of the optimal transprency from well mixed (multi-mic?) recordings with nevertheless present spatial cues in the form of runtime stereophony. Who wants to follow a TV broadcast of a motorcycle race from the perspective of a spectator at a fixed position at the race track when he or she can have the overview over the whole race!
  
 Point 2 is looked at rather critically by some posters, as it seems. Why, since it is the best imaginable precondition for the other two points? Imagine a perfect music reproduction system: perfect source, perfect electronics, perfect speakers. Why would you want to introduce some colorations, add some small doses of harmonic distortion, then? It's as if you would want to «improve» the sound in an acoustically perfect concert hall by some added tube colorations to make it more «real». That would be absurd, wouldn't it? The reason why this strategy works to some degree in real-world music-reproduction systems is that there are too many flaws that could indeed benefit from some masking effects. Especially sound transducers are far from perfect.
  
 I'm speaking from own experience from my speaker-builder era. I was quite happy with the sound of my then prototypes which I had perfected in endless weeks by fine-tuning its crossover network. Then came the day when I realized an idea I had carried with me since quite a while: replacing my preamp (Conrad Johnson PV6, BTW a valve amp) with a stepped attenuator, populated with carefully measured metal-film resistors. Wow! What a disappointment! The sound had become brittle and dry, no trace of the former coherence left. It took me further weeks of even finer and more careful crossover-network tuning (especially considering the fourth-order filters calling for extreme precision) to get a satisfying result again. And it was on an even higher level than it ever was before.
  
 A Theta Pro basic II DAC with its 5 ohm line output served as an ideal source for some experiments with the goal of revealing the mystery of amplifier sound. As I was always curious in what way amps alter the sound. The monitor headphone at that time was the HD 650 – a good choice due to its high impedance in view of the DAC's line output. I nevertheless took care of possible effects of the low load impedance (for a line output) also while listening through the examined amps. There was one clear result: All tested headphone amps altered the sound considerably. The direct connection offered by far the most clear and transparent sound, the best transient attacks and the best bass control. But one thing was obvious as well: All amps made the sound more forgiving, even more musical, despite the loss of transparency and detail. So I ended up with using my preferred headphone amp instead of the direct connection as my standard configuration for listening to music. Two important things have to be noted, though: The Theta amp itself later needed a repair on one of its line outputs (!). Unfortunately it got lost during its travel over the Atlantic, and my then dealer didn't seem to remember me (well, I waited many months for it to be sent back, but it never happened). I soon had bought myself a new, better DAC anyway: a Bel Canto DAC2 (recommended by Jude at that time). It clearly showed how dry and digital the Theta's sound effectively was. No wonder that I preferred the forgiving electronics in the signal path. That wasn't the case with the Bel Canto anymore, at least not to the same degree. Which leads us to the second important thing: I wasn't into equalizing then; I was used to live with the factory setting of my headphones. That has changed in the meantime. A few days ago I have tried the direct connection of the HD 800 and the HE1000 to the Bel Canto again, this time with my carefully elaborated EQ curves. Now there was no question anymore: The direct connection sounded significantly better than the detour via any of my headphone amps.
  
 The DAVE is even a downright godsend for purists. Its output signal is so perfect (by today's measures) that it doesn't need any masking by itself. So you only have to take for good cables (often an underestimated factor; synergetic effects are inevitable there) and perfect sound transducers... Alternatively – since the latter don't exist – shape them as perfect as it gets (speak: equalize them), to make masking effects obsolete. Once you've reached that point, you'll notice that it gets even better than by adding artificial euphonic distortion.


----------



## Triode User

Wow, well that was not the response I was expecting. Good on you. The Stereo 60 mk2 M is a well thought of amp but I have to admit I have not heard it.
  
 From my side, I am guessing that Rob's ears are in tune with mine from how much his design of DACs hit my sweet spot. I am therefore hoping that the new range of amps he is designing will also hit my sweet spot. Don't worry, if they do I will be happy to swop out my tube amps. Interesting times.
  
  
 Quote:


evolvist said:


> triode user said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe not but you ARE missing the point. Chord sell an amazing DAC and once it leaves the dealer we can do with it as we please. I happen to get most enjoyment from using it in my system. Others will mate it with different kit. As long as Chord continue to develop their DACs I will keep buying them just as I have ordered a Blu2. Who knows, if I like one of their amps one day I might buy that.
> ...


----------



## EVOLVIST

Triode User Well, I've got 60 days to try the amp on for size to see if I like it, so why not. I like the fact that you can switch between linear and triode. It sounds fun. If I like it, I keep it, or maybe go a step up. If I don't like it, I just pay the shipping back. Win-Win. 

Hopefully during this time I also get to play with the TToby and write a review on it. So, it should be a good time. I should have the blu2 somewhere in the middle of all that. 

The heart, of course, is the DAVE. I just want to do the gear and my ears a good service by exploring different avenues.


----------



## Triode User

evolvist said:


> @Triode User Well, I've got 60 days to try the amp on for size to see if I like it, so why not. I like the fact that you can switch between linear and triode. It sounds fun. If I like it, I keep it, or maybe go a step up. If I don't like it, I just pay the shipping back. Win-Win.
> 
> Hopefully during this time I also get to play with the TToby and write a review on it. So, it should be a good time. I should have the blu2 somewhere in the middle of all that.
> 
> The heart, of course, is the DAVE. I just want to do the gear and my ears a good service by exploring different avenues.


 

 Let me know in due course which speakers you will be using as I am interested.


----------



## miketlse

evolvist said:


> @Triode User Well, I've got 60 days to try the amp on for size to see if I like it, so why not. I like the fact that you can switch between linear and triode. It sounds fun. If I like it, I keep it, or maybe go a step up. If I don't like it, I just pay the shipping back. Win-Win.
> 
> Hopefully during this time I also get to play with the TToby and write a review on it. So, it should be a good time. I should have the blu2 somewhere in the middle of all that.
> 
> The heart, of course, is the DAVE. I just want to do the gear and my ears a good service by exploring different avenues.


 

 I shall look out for your TToby review.


----------



## EVOLVIST

triode user said:


> Let me know in due course which speakers you will be using as I am interested.




Oh, that's easy. I'm currently breaking in a pair of Omega Compact Alnico Monitors. I'll have a JL F110 sub to go with it this Saturday.


----------



## Triode User

evolvist said:


> Oh, that's easy. I'm currently breaking in a pair of Omega Compact Alnico Monitors. I'll have a JL F110 sub to go with it this Saturday.


 

 Hmnnn. Interesting. The single driver is a challange, I can see how you got there because of wanting to use it direct from the Dave. You might not have arrived at the same conclusion to be driven by an amp such as the Stereo 60. In any case, it will be fun. Looking forward to your thoughts.


----------



## EVOLVIST

triode user said:


> Hmnnn. Interesting. The single driver is a challange, I can see how you got there because of wanting to use it direct from the Dave. You might not have arrived at the same conclusion to be driven by an amp such as the Stereo 60. In any case, it will be fun. Looking forward to your thoughts.




With the DAVE, at least what I've heard so far, these speakers are purity incarnate. They definitely need a sub, though, otherwise they are incomplete: all highs, mids and low mids. For a 12x12 listening room, I'm not sure I need anymore. 

That said, I'm already thinking about upgrading to these, because I feel that even with the DAVE and/or a new Chord digital amp, there will be plenty of SPLs, but I'm worried about some of my music choices that are more complex:

http://omegaloudspeakers.com/superalnicohigh1.html 

By the way, it's spooky the way these image. Everything is just right there in front of me, at 6ft.


----------



## Triode User

evolvist said:


> With the DAVE, at least what I've heard so far, these speakers are purity incarnate. They definitely need a sub, though, otherwise they are incomplete: all highs, mids and low mids. For a 12x12 listening room, I'm not sure I need anymore.
> 
> That said, I'm already thinking about upgrading to these, because I feel that even with the DAVE and/or a new Chord digital amp, there will be plenty of SPLs, but I'm worried about some of my music choices that are more complex:
> 
> ...


 

 It's a fair bargain. You ordered a tube amp to try. So the least I could do is use a bit of silver solder and rig up an RCA to banana plug conversion to try out the Dave driving some pairs of speakers direct
  
 On trial were a pair of horn loaded Odeon Rigoletto speakers (95dB) and a pair of top of the range Living Voice OBX RW3 speakers (94dB) - 2 way ported.
  
 The Dave direct to both sets of speakers sounded OK.
  
 Not bad.
  
 In fact sort of OK.
  
 In fact it was  . . . .
  
 And then my wife walked in and asked what I was doing because she could smell the solder.
  
 She said, "It doesn't sound as good." And then she walked out of the room.
  
 I connected the tube amps and had just started playing the  same tracks - Laura Marling, 'Breath' ('Once I was an Eagle) & Shelby Lynne, 'Just A Little Lovin' (Just A Little Lovin').
  
 Then my wife walked back in.
  
 "Oh, yes, now that  sounds better. I can hear the instruments. Why did you do that thing you did before without the amplifier?"
  
 My missus and me agreed the Dave direct to the speakers was cr4p compared to my tube amp.
  
 Now your turn. It will be interesting.
  
 (Oh, and I didn't need a sub)
  
  
 edit. 30 March 2017. I repeated the experiment just now to get some perspective on what I was hearing. I think it is fair to say that if one had only heard the Dave direct into the speakers without the amplifier comparison then the impression would be that it sounded very good. Certainly good enough to live with. It is only a comparison with using an amplifier which shows up the shortcomings. This is hardly unexpected bearing in mind the low power output of the Dave and in many ways it is a surprise that it sounds so good direct into speakers. In my experience using single driver high efficiency speakers to compensate for the low power is likely to introduce other shortcomings which outweigh the advantages.


----------



## JaZZ

evolvist said:


> triode user said:
> 
> 
> > Hmnnn. Interesting. The single driver is a challange, I can see how you got there because of wanting to use it direct from the Dave. You might not have arrived at the same conclusion to be driven by an amp such as the Stereo 60. In any case, it will be fun. Looking forward to your thoughts.
> ...


 
  
 Who would have thought that! – They're speakers, not headphones. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Or are you saying the sound seems to come from behind them?
  
 Nick, forget the Superalnicos if you want to have the DAVE drive your speakers – they're rated at 4-6 Ω, so should under no circumstances be paired with the DAVE, which needs loads of 8 Ω and higher.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jazz said:


> Who would have thought that! – They're speakers, not headphones.  Or are you saying the sound seems to come from behind them?
> 
> Nick, forget the Superalnicos if you want to have the DAVE drive your speakers – they're rated at 4-6 Ω, so should under no circumstances be paired with the DAVE, which needs loads of 8 Ω and higher.




Right, but either I keep the tube amp because I'm in love with it (and I would really have to be IN LOVE), or, I use another amp an as interim solution until the Chord digital amps come out. 

As far as the imaging, I've just never heard speakers image like these. It might be the lack of a crossover, because I've never heard crossover-less speakers before. The image is in both speakers, but right in front of me at the same time. The only downside I've noticed so far is hard panning effects are now not as pronounced, like some of those 3D images that Hendrix was doing on Electric Ladyland. The plus side, of course, is this very real feeling that vocals are right in front of my face. This is something I've never experienced with these mammoth multi-point speakers, even in small rooms or spaced close together. 

The DAVE plays it's part as the clarity is insane. I suppose I'm just thinking of the SAMs as I wouldn't want to be limited to what I throw at the speakers, within reason, for I wouldn't at large scale symphonic works, anyway.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Triode User what is the impedance on the speakers you mentioned above?


----------



## Triode User

evolvist said:


> @Triode User what is the impedance on the speakers you mentioned above?


 

 8 ohms and 6 ohms. The 6 ohm ones sounded best.


----------



## tunes

any chance the DAVE will come down
In price in USD after Brexit settles down?


----------



## Crgreen

My understanding is that the DAVE has just gone up in price in the U.K. As to what happens post-Brexit, I doubt anyone knows.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

One of the early comments I remember Rob saying about Dave was that it 'presented the music in a way that you understood why the artist recorded it.'

I have mentioned before that Dave has expanded my regular listening base significantly. For those that own a Dave it's not really about the 'clarity of sound' though. That's a given. No, it's the musical performance. As many have commented, it's the connection. The emotion. Often for me it's the older parts of my collection, those that are less 'deep' in their composition that have found new favour. The stuff that I liked when I was a kid, mostly predating when I first learned to play an instrument and also before I started recording music. Before I became a little pretentious about listening to a certain quality of composition.  

Depth has more meaning when musicality is depleted in the way we have experienced with bad digital conversion. 

I find myself playing more of that old simple music that had exceptional feel and performance. Since Dave I have gained a new respect for a few performers like the Eagles, the Hollies and Neil Diamond's early work such as Moods. This music can make the hairs on my neck stand up like the feeling I had when I was a kid and first fell in love with music. A time when everything was analogue. 

As audiophiles we live in good times it seems. If only the prices were still the same.


----------



## audiobill

tunes said:


> any chance the DAVE will come down
> In price in USD after Brexit settles down?


 
 I believe it already has - it was initially $13,300 US if I recall without the stand, and I read it's now under $11K.


----------



## esimms86

$10,600


----------



## jlbrach

tunes said:


> any chance the DAVE will come down
> In price in USD after Brexit settles down?


 
 dave has already come down in price rather significantly in the US after Brexit due to currency fluctuations


----------



## rgs9200m

Used ones are $8-9K.


----------



## Sonic77

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/hi-fi-awards-2016-digital-audio/
  
 Hey the Dave dac received an award.


----------



## Silvertone4

Some good first impressions from Stereophile's Art Dudley on the DAVE/Blu2 combo and a confirmation that a DAVE review will be in Stereophile's June issue:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/arts-saturday-morning-show#Iw7TruIgmHT4GoIb.97


----------



## AndrewOld

jlbrach said:


> dave has already come down in price rather significantly in the US after Brexit due to currency fluctuations


 

 Lucky you! It's gone up from £8k to £8.5k in the UK.


----------



## SunWarrior

Questions about the DAVE's output, DAC mode vs. preamp mode.
  
 When in DAC mode, the volume shows as *-3 dB*.
 If when in preamp mode, you set the volume to the same *-3 dB*, is the sound quality of the outputs the exact same as in DAC mode?
  
 Or, by being in preamp mode, even if the volume shows as the same as in DAC mode, is the sound quality somehow changed simply by being in preamp mode?
  
 Dave, who would set the DAVE in preamp mode to *-3 dB* only when going into another preamp such as into a headphone amp such as the Cavalli Liquid Gold


----------



## Triode User

sunwarrior said:


> Questions about the DAVE's output, DAC mode vs. preamp mode.
> 
> When in DAC mode, the volume shows as *-3 dB*.
> If when in preamp mode, you set the volume to the same *-3 dB*, is the sound quality of the outputs the exact same as in DAC mode?
> ...


 

 As far as I understand it, the headphone and RCA outputs are electrically one and the same thing.


----------



## SunWarrior

triode user said:


> As far as I understand it, the headphone and RCA outputs are electrically one and the same thing.


 
  I probably could have been clearer: I'm not asking about the DAVE's headphone output, but the single-ended and balanced outputs out the back.


----------



## Triode User

sunwarrior said:


> I probably could have been clearer: I'm not asking about the DAVE's headphone output, but the single-ended and balanced outputs out the back.


 

 Putting the DAVE in DAC mode does nothing more than set the output to 3v, -3dB. So having the DAVE in non DAC mode and manually setting the output to -3dB achieves exactly the same output. Sound 'quality' and the other DAVE settings are unaffected.
  
 I think that answers the question you were asking.


----------



## SunWarrior

triode user said:


> Putting the DAVE in DAC mode does nothing more than set the output to 3v, -3dB. So having the DAVE in non DAC mode and manually setting the output to -3dB achieves exactly the same output. Sound 'quality' and the other DAVE settings are unaffected.
> 
> I think that answers the question you were asking.


 
  
 It does answer my question.
  
 That's kind of like with Berkeley Audio DACs, where they say to set the output volume to "54" when using it in DAC mode, but set the output volume lower when using it in preamp mode.
 It's just that the DAVE gives you a switch for that DAC/preamp setting, and the Berkeley has you do it by hand.
 But in both cases, the only difference between DAC and preamp modes is simply the output volume setting.
  
 Thanks!
  
 Dave, who both thanks Triode User and yet still wonders if anyone else here has a counter-understanding
  
 P.S. One reason I asked this question is that when the DAVE feeds my Cavalli Liquid Gold in DAC mode, the Cavalli's volume barely needs to hit the 8 o'clock position with my Focal Utopia headphones. So therefore, if I set the DAVE's output lower than the DAC mode's -3 dB, I can use more of the Cavalli's gain. I don't know if that's better...just experimenting...but want to experiment only without the chance of damaging expensive equipment.


----------



## rkt31

@SunWarrior, using higher output of Dave will cause more analog attenuation in your amp that's why you barely need to go beyond 8' O clock in your amp. using lesser output of Dave causes digital attenuation in Dave and less analog attenuation in your amp. both extremes may deteriorate the sound so try which level of output of Dave works best for you. since almost all amps have large fixed gain so large attenuation either in dac ( like Dave with digital attenuation) or in amp is unavoidable for normal day to day listening levels. therefore amps with variable gain may be better , avoiding large attenuation. I know two such amps one is schiit Ragnarok which is more of a headphone amp but can be used as speaker amp also. other is benchmark ahb2 which is a speaker power amp but can also be used with demanding headphones in low gain mode in conjunction with digital volume control of Dave.


----------



## dmance

Rob Watts has been pretty clear that Dave's digital volume setting works in a way that does not degrade or deteriorate the output.


----------



## SunWarrior

dmance said:


> Rob Watts has been pretty clear that Dave's digital volume setting works in a way that does not degrade or deteriorate the output.


 
  
 So, yes, then having the DAVE's volume setting, in preamp mode, set to less than -3 dB, should give me the same sound quality from the outputs.
  
 And then, when I feed that output into the Cavalli headphone amp's inputs, I can set the DAVE lower in order to set the Cavalli higher.
  
 Yes, the specific settings on both units is one to experiment with...


----------



## x RELIC x

I set the DAVE to -7 and have it connected to the Liquid Gold with the XLR balanced out. The RCA out on the DAVE is better according to Rob because there are less components in the audio path vs the balanced, but because the LAu is a balanced amp I connect the balanced inputs.

The default -3 on the volume is 3Vrms through the RCA and 6Vrms through the XLR. Lowering it to -7 outputs around 2Vrms through the RCA and around 4Vrms through the XLR which is much closer to the typical output of a DAC and you'll get a little more wiggle room with the LAu's volume. Lower the DAVE's volume further if you want more play in the LA's volume knob. As was mentioned, Rob says there is no degradation of sound when adjusting the output of the DAVE so I don't sweat it.

Personally, I vastly prefer the Utopia from the DAVE's headphone out as I find I lose a noticeable amount of nuance from the LAu _in direct comparison_. I mostly use the LAu when I want some sweetening of the sound, but some fidelity is lost to my ear by going through the amp.


----------



## rkt31

I am not expert but like any dac or any audio equipment Dave too has limitations on the extremes . while Dave volume control is extremely accurate but see the dave's inherent noise floor is constant with any volume setting . so while going from 3v to 1 v will not effect the s/n ratio significantly (log scale) but at very low outputs say few mv the s/n ratio will drop. don't get me wrong , I am taking about extremes. similarly using Dave's high output ( more than input sensitivity of amp) will cause clipping in the amp and even at 2v ( most common input sensitivity for amps ) there will be high analog attenuation in the amp for normal listening levels ( this is other extreme ), causing phase distortion and thus sounding slow at lower volumes ( typical loss of bass and punch at low volumes ). so imho best setting of Dave's volume will be somewhere in between the two extremes.


----------



## x RELIC x

rkt31 said:


> I am not expert but like any dac or any audio equipment Dave too has limitations on the extremes . while Dave volume control is extremely accurate but see the dave's inherent noise floor is constant with any volume setting . so while going from 3v to 1 v will not effect the s/n ratio significantly (log scale) but at very low outputs say few mv the s/n ratio will drop. don't get me wrong , I am taking about extremes. similarly using Dave's high output ( more than input sensitivity of amp) will cause clipping in the amp and even at 2v ( most common input sensitivity for amps ) there will be high analog attenuation in the amp for normal listening levels ( this is other extreme ), causing phase distortion and thus sounding slow at lower volumes ( typical loss of bass and punch at low volumes ). so imho best setting of Dave's volume will be somewhere in between the two extremes.




True.


----------



## erik701

Hello guys,
  
 new happy DAVE owner here. I have maybe fundamental or for somebody it will be just stupid question, but is there any way how to put DAVE into the Stand-by mode without remote control? Is this possible with combination of some buttons for input select or changes in the menu, or only way how to turn off DAVE is to do it via power switch on the back of chassis? 
  
 By the way, I cannot believe how big difference there is in every single song from my collection!!! Before as a DAC I used ES9018 in my OPPO HA-1. Just WOW. I almost cry...


----------



## EVOLVIST

rkt31 said:


> @SunWarrior, using higher output of Dave will cause more analog attenuation in your amp that's why you barely need to go beyond 8' O clock in your amp. using lesser output of Dave causes digital attenuation in Dave and less analog attenuation in your amp. both extremes may deteriorate the sound so try which level of output of Dave works best for you. since almost all amps have large fixed gain so large attenuation either in dac ( like Dave with digital attenuation) or in amp is unavoidable for normal day to day listening levels. therefore amps with variable gain may be better , avoiding large attenuation. I know two such amps one is schiit Ragnarok which is more of a headphone amp but can be used as speaker amp also. other is benchmark ahb2 which is a speaker power amp but can also be used with demanding headphones in low gain mode in conjunction with digital volume control of Dave.




You don't find any quality drop off with your Benchmark amp with the DAVE's XLRs?


----------



## Triode User

erik701 said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> new happy DAVE owner here. I have maybe fundamental or for somebody it will be just stupid question, but is there any way how to put DAVE into the Stand-by mode without remote control? Is this possible with combination of some buttons for input select or changes in the menu, or only way how to turn off DAVE is to do it via power switch on the back of chassis?
> 
> By the way, I cannot believe how big difference there is in every single song from my collection!!! Before as a DAC I used ES9018 in my OPPO HA-1. Just WOW. I almost cry...


 

 I am sorry but I can't help except to say that I always leave my Dave switched on and not in standby mode so it is not an issue.
  
 agreed that the Dave is Amazing.


----------



## x RELIC x

erik701 said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> new happy DAVE owner here. I have maybe fundamental or for somebody it will be just stupid question, but is there any way how to put DAVE into the Stand-by mode without remote control? Is this possible with combination of some buttons for input select or changes in the menu, or only way how to turn off DAVE is to do it via power switch on the back of chassis?
> 
> By the way, I cannot believe how big difference there is in every single song from my collection!!! Before as a DAC I used ES9018 in my OPPO HA-1. Just WOW. I almost cry... :basshead:




The only way to go in to Standby is by using the supplied remote. 

I used to own the HA-1 and yes the DAVE is a _significant_ step up! Real detail, low level detail (not exaggerated brightness posing as detail), timbre, timing, fidelity... huge difference. 

Congratulations!!


----------



## Imusicman

x relic x said:


> The only way to go in to Standby is by using the supplied remote.
> 
> I used to own the HA-1 and yes the DAVE is a _significant_ step up! Real detail, low level detail (not exaggerated brightness posing as detail), timbre, timing, fidelity... huge difference.
> 
> Congratulations!!



I can't wait to receive my Dave in a few weeks time. I also have come from the HA-1 albeit the Audiocom SE upgraded version. To me that sounded great so I'm literally bursting at the seems to hear what this bad boy will do


----------



## Imusicman

I'm new to the thread so apologies if this has been covered off before. I'm planning on hooking up my unit via USB connection to my computer. Is this the best way to go to get the best out of the Dave or have any of you switched from this type of set up to an alternative set up that producers superior SQ?


----------



## x RELIC x

imusicman said:


> I can't wait to receive my Dave in a few weeks time. I also have come from the HA-1 albeit the Audiocom SE upgraded version. To me that sounded great so I'm literally bursting at the seems to hear what this bad boy will do




Don't get me wrong about the HA-1... For the price and using 'off the shelf' chips it's a good unit. I found the DAVE's capabilities revealed themselves more and more the longer I listened and with a wide variety of tracks. The immediate tonal differences from the HA-1 were more bottom end from the DAVE yet still more controlled bass and a much larger sense of space. The DAVE is much more organic and natural sounding while at the same time more detailed vs the HA-1.


----------



## Jawed

imusicman said:


> I'm new to the thread so apologies if this has been covered off before. I'm planning on hooking up my unit via USB connection to my computer. Is this the best way to go to get the best out of the Dave or have any of you switched from this type of set up to an alternative set up that producers superior SQ?



http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/7455#post_13236293

DAVE's USB input is about as good as it gets on DACs, meaning that it's pretty hard to make it sound bad - but there is room for refinement.

Each of us has our own limit on the tweaking and experimentation and cost. I'm sticking with the two Jitterbugs and just listening to music.

Now playing: Throwing Muses - Lizzie Sage


----------



## EVOLVIST

imusicman said:


> I'm new to the thread so apologies if this has been covered off before. I'm planning on hooking up my unit via USB connection to my computer. Is this the best way to go to get the best out of the Dave or have any of you switched from this type of set up to an alternative set up that producers superior SQ?




DAVE is pretty much immune to the source, but not totally. You'll get good sound from your computer, guaranteed, more so than with any other DAC and any other computer. However, many of us have felt the need to go incrementally up in SQ via the mRendu or the sMS-200, which both take all of the extra junk from a computer and only leaves those components that allows the audio to flow more freely. And yes, these can be big jumps in SQ. When you hear it, you know it. 

Others here use different streamers, media servers and transports; it all depends on who you ask. It also depends on how much money you want to spend, because there are different functions with each device. 

Something like the mRendu is pretty inexpensive. 

The DAVE, of course, is the first step, and Chord have really done a good job making sure that the source won't get in the way too much.


----------



## rkt31

@EVOLVIST, I don't have Dave yet. I use hugo . since hugo has only RCA out so I have to use RCA to XLR custom interconnect.


----------



## EVOLVIST

rkt31 said:


> @EVOLVIST, I don't have Dave yet. I use hugo . since hugo has only RCA out so I have to use RCA to XLR custom interconnect.




Ah, well, I have RCA to XLR cables around here somewhere, with an adapter. Good cables. I used to use them with an iFi rig I had. 

So, yeah, I'm really trying to get an impression on that amp. I mean, gut feeling, what goes in is what comes out, to your ears? -135db is nothing to sneeze at, but usually when folks advertise low distortion products like that the sound comes out etched. I know the Benchmark DACs sound etched to my ears - artificial - but things I've read really claim this amp is a little miracle without the switching problems of a Class D.


----------



## rkt31

@EVOLVIST, benchmark ahb2 amp was released in 2013 or so. It did not get that much attention because of many factors like small size, relatively inexpensive for the specs, plain looks etc etc. not many people know that this was stereophile finalist along with chord mojo . incidentally I have both and hugo.this amp besides being extremely transparent, the best part of it I think is the variable gain. 100 RMS is reached at 2v input in high gain mode( approx 23db gain in high gain mode as against the norm of 31db fixed gain in most of the amps) . that means if the preamp is not capable of feeding upto 2v , the amp may not reach to it's rated 100 w output and people may claim it to be underpowered. so the amp is clearly meant for source having high output of 2v and above, like chord dacs with digital pre amp functionality and benchmark's own dac2 and dac3. adding a separate preamp in between the source and the power amp will only defeat the purpose of transparency.


----------



## EVOLVIST

rkt31 said:


> @EVOLVIST, benchmark ahb2 amp was released in 2013 or so. It did not get that much attention because of many factors like small size, relatively inexpensive for the specs, plain looks etc etc. not many people know that this was stereophile finalist along with chord mojo . incidentally I have both and hugo.this amp besides being extremely transparent, the best part of it I think is the variable gain. 100 RMS is reached at 2v input in high gain mode( approx 23db gain in high gain mode as against the norm of 31db fixed gain in most of the amps) . that means if the preamp is not capable of feeding upto 2v , the amp may not reach to it's rated 100 w output and people may claim it to be underpowered. so the amp is clearly meant for source having high output of 2v and above, like chord dacs with digital pre amp functionality and benchmark's own dac2 and dac3. adding a separate preamp in between the source and the power amp will only defeat the purpose of transparency.


 
  
 Yeah, if I decide to audition one of these, I would only have the DAVE in as the pre-amp. It sucks that they only have XLR inputs. What were they thinking? Ugghh!


----------



## Sunya

You can try the Benchmark AHB2 with their 30 days return policy; DAVE directly into AHB2 in low gain mode (9.2 dB with 9.8V needed from the source for full power) would be one of the most transparent combos possible.

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/reviews/ahb2-review-aleksander-radisavljevic-raal-advanced-loudspeakers


[VIDEO]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jv21io69Cvc[/VIDEO]


----------



## bigfatpaulie

Hi All,
  
 I am hoping to get a little clarity here...  From what I can tell there are three major products - DAVE, Blu2 and Davina (I think...)  DAVE is a DAC, Blu2 is essentially a 'upgrade' for the DAVE (and I guess other DAC's), so additional taps, with a CD transport and the Davina is an amp also with additional taps.  
  
 I'm I correct or am I out to lunch?  
  
 If so is DAVE + Davina going to be similar to DAVE + Blu2, if you were using both via USB and for headphones or...
  
 I guess I've missed much.


----------



## x RELIC x

bigfatpaulie said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am hoping to get a little clarity here...  From what I can tell there are three major products - DAVE, Blu2 and Davina (I think...)  DAVE is a DAC, Blu2 is essentially a 'upgrade' for the DAVE (and I guess other DAC's), so additional taps, with a CD transport and the Davina is an amp also with additional taps.
> 
> ...




Davina is an ADC, front of the chain, not an amp. The Davina project is Rob's way of finding out what issues are actually created from sampling the incoming analogue signal vs what issues are elsewhere. The Davina will include the same Mscalar tech in the Blu mk2 I believe. Rob and Chord are working on a new digital amp (not classD - entirely new topology AFAIK).


----------



## Imusicman

x relic x said:


> Davina is an ADC, front of the chain, not an amp. The Davina project is Rob's way of finding out what issues are actually created from sampling the incoming analogue signal vs what issues are elsewhere. The Davina will include the same Mscalar tech in the Blu mk2 I believe. Rob and Chord are working on a new digital amp (not classD - entirely new topology AFAIK).



Davins is a adc. What' is a adc please? How will link up with the Dave and how would this be better than a stand alone Dave? Thanks


----------



## icebear

a = analog
 d = digital
 c = converter


----------



## miketlse

imusicman said:


> Davins is a adc. What' is a adc please? How will link up with the Dave and how would this be better than a stand alone Dave? Thanks


 
 ADC is *A*nalogue to *D*igital *C*onverter so it is the opposite of a DAC (eg DAVE, Hugo, Mojo etc).
  
 When recording acoustic music, the signal from the mike, is fed to an ADC, to generate the digital stream which is captured as the music file.
  
 So RW has been performing the R&D on the Davina project, which was planned to include a ADC plus the M Scalar module (which upscales the initial digital file).
  
 The Blu 2 is the original Blu CD transport, with the addition of a USB input, plus the M Scalar module.
  
 The combination of the Blu 2, feeding the M Scalar output to the DAVE, achieves the 1 Million taps, which RW has predicted is the required number of taps needed, so that the brain cannot distinguish between the original music, and the music output from the DAVE.


----------



## Imusicman

icebear said:


> a = analog
> d = digital
> c = converter



Thanks that's what I would of had an educated guess at. Any thoughts on the rest of my question. Cheers


----------



## x RELIC x

imusicman said:


> Davins is a adc. What' is a adc please? How will link up with the Dave and how would this be better than a stand alone Dave? Thanks




ADC=Analogue to Digital Converter... the opposite of DAC=Digital to Analogue Converter. It's used to digitize the recordings at various sampling rates. Remember, digital simply means sampled data and analogue simply means continuous data. If we didn't digitize the audio we would not have enough storage and processing power to manipulate and store the analogue data.

You would use the Davina to record music to a digital format, and hook it up to the DAVE to use the built-in Mscalar to to acheive 1 million TAPs while the DAVE will use the Pulse Array elements to convert back to an analogue signal. At least that's the basics as I understand it, I'm sure it's more complex than that between the two. You could also use the Blu mk2 for the Mscalar to achieve 1 million TAPs with the DAVE but the Blu mk2 obviously does not record to digital.

Edit: Yeah, as the others have said.


----------



## Imusicman

miketlse said:


> ADC is *A*nalogue to *D*igital *C*onverter so it is the opposite of a DAC (eg DAVE, Hugo, Mojo etc).
> 
> When recording acoustic music, the signal from the mike, is fed to an ADC, to generate the digital stream which is captured as the music file.
> 
> ...



Wow that could potentially be awesome if it is achieved. Do you have to use Cd's for this to happen or could it be done with music on a pc?


----------



## x RELIC x

imusicman said:


> Wow that could potentially be awesome if it is achieved. Do you have to use Cd's for this to happen or could it be done with music on a pc?




As mentioned Blu mk2 has USB input as well so you can use any source that outputs audio through USB.


----------



## Imusicman

x relic x said:


> ADC=Analogue to Digital Converter... the opposite of DAC=Digital to Analogue Converter. It's used to digitize the recordings at various sampling rates. Remember, digital simply means sampled data and analogue simply means continuous data. If we didn't digitize the audio we would not have enough storage and processing power to manipulate and store the analogue data.
> 
> You would use the Davina to record music to a digital format, and hook it up to the DAVE to use the built-in Mscalar to to acheive 1 million TAPs while the DAVE will use the Pulse Array elements to convert back to an analogue signal. At least that's the basics as I understand it, I'm sure it's more complex than that between the two. You could also use the Blu mk2 for the Mscalar to achieve 1 million TAPs with the DAVE but the Blu mk2 obviously does not record to digital.
> 
> Edit: Yeah, as the others have said.



Thanks for that. I think I understand it now


----------



## Imusicman

x relic x said:


> As mentioned Blu mk2 has USB input as well so you can use any source that outputs audio through USB.



Brilliant for SQ and possibly dangerous all at the same time( for my bank account that it


----------



## miketlse

imusicman said:


> Wow that could potentially be awesome if it is achieved. Do you have to use Cd's for this to happen or could it be done with music on a pc?


 
 When the Blu 2 was revealed at the CES 2017, it could only feed the CD output to the M Scalar, and then to the DAVE.
  
 There were lots of requests on the chord threads, to add a USB input, so Chord redesigned the Blu 2 to also include such a usb input.
  
 So now, in theory you can feed the usb output from a laptop, into the Blu 2/M Scalar, and then through the DAVE.
 The few reports from CES, and canjams etc, are that the Blu 2 plus DAVE, is a step up from DAVE alone (this was using pre-production versions of Blu 2).
  
 Awesome is probably the correct word.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

x relic x said:


> Davina is an ADC, front of the chain, not an amp. The Davina project is Rob's way of finding out what issues are actually created from sampling the incoming analogue signal vs what issues are elsewhere. The Davina will include the same Mscalar tech in the Blu mk2 I believe. Rob and Chord are working on a new digital amp (not classD - entirely new topology AFAIK).


 
  
 Thanks.  So the "m scaler" is the thing that I really care about in the Blu2.  This talk about a new amp, will that include a m scaler, or does one still need a blu2 as well?


----------



## miketlse

bigfatpaulie said:


> Thanks.  So the "m scaler" is the thing that I really care about in the Blu2.  This talk about a new amp, will that include a m scaler, or does one still need a blu2 as well?


 
 Rob gave a few details about the amps, but is not surposed to talk about them in detail yet.
  
 Read this post, and then gradually work backwards through the short thread of posts http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/7740#post_13301677
  
 Those few posts contain the sum of the knowledge about the amp(s), outside of Chord.


----------



## x RELIC x

bigfatpaulie said:


> Thanks.  So the "m scaler" is the thing that I really care about in the Blu2.  This talk about a new amp, will that include a m scaler, or does one still need a blu2 as well?




Yes, unless you also love CD's. :wink_face:

The Mscalar is pre-DAVE. The amp is post-DAVE and would not have an Mscalar (I presume). Actually, thinking about it, with the amp in the digital realm what would the DAVE be used for with the Blu mk2 then (more noise shaping, etc.)? Hmmmmmm.....


----------



## bigfatpaulie

miketlse said:


> Rob gave a few details about the amps, but is not surposed to talk about them in detail yet.
> 
> Read this post, and then gradually work backwards through the short thread of posts http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/7740#post_13301677
> 
> Those few posts contain the sum of the knowledge about the amp(s), outside of Chord.


 
  
 Thank you!
  
  


x relic x said:


> Yes, unless you also love CD's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 This is what I am thinking...  It seems like something isn't adding up fully and one customer (either the DAVE or Blu2 customer) may be up a creek once everything is released.  Unless there is more to all this.


----------



## miketlse

x relic x said:


> Yes, unless you also love CD's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Surely:

Step 1 is to use M Scalar to upscale the input
The digital amp then multiplies the digital signal values
You then need a DAC to convert the digital output, to an analogue signal.
  
 DAVE could arguably be step 3 - or the digital amp could contain all 3 stages
 Something does not quite add up.


----------



## x RELIC x

bigfatpaulie said:


> This is what I am thinking...  It seems like something isn't adding up fully and one customer (either the DAVE or Blu2 customer) may be up a creek once everything is released.  Unless there is more to all this.




Well, it's clear from Rob's posts that there's a lot more than just TAPs in his DAC's filters, so perhaps the upsampling and noise shapers in the DAVE are still required. A simple breakdown would be great but I doubt at this stage in the digital amp development he would share much information.


----------



## EVOLVIST

miketlse said:


> Surely:
> 
> Step 1 is to use M Scalar to upscale the input
> The digital amp then multiplies the digital signal values
> ...




Nah, it all adds up perfectly:

1.) Blue2 w/ M-Scaler adds 1m taps to:
2.) DAVE, which is a 20 element pulse array DAC, still the gold standard, with near zero noise floor modulation and a nearly pure output to:
3.) "Digital Amp," which takes all of the signals put together and outputs a close to unvarnished signal, as you would get from the headphone and RCA outputs. This signal is then amplified, with very little added distortion, to the speakers of your choice.

The amp is then the last gear in the chain, taking the sum of the Blu2 and DAVE to a purer amplified source than almost anything on the market, because with such a great output from the DAVE, it was realized that even Chord amps are a bit of a bottleneck as they don't match what the DAVE is giving out. 

As easy as 1,2,3.


----------



## x RELIC x

evolvist said:


> Nah, it all adds up perfectly:
> 
> 1.) Blue2 w/ M-Scaler adds 1m taps to:
> 2.) DAVE, *which is a 20 element pulse array DAC*, still the gold standard, with near zero noise floor modulation and a nearly pure output to:
> ...




A digital amp wouldn't require the Pulse Array to convert to analogue is what I'm stuck on.


----------



## miketlse

evolvist said:


> Nah, it all adds up perfectly:
> 
> 1.) Blue2 w/ M-Scaler adds 1m taps to:
> 2.) DAVE, which is a 20 element pulse array DAC, still the gold standard, with near zero noise floor modulation and a nearly pure output to:
> ...




No.

DAVE outputs an analogue signal. What is the point of feeding an analogue signal into a digital amp?

Devialet approach the problem by using an ADC convert the analogue input > the digital signal processing > then the DAC to convert the modified digital signal back to analogue > the headphones or speakers.


----------



## Jawed

Blu 2 + the amplifier is all that's required for listening to digital on speakers.

Now playing: Tanya Donelly - Breathe Around You


----------



## dmance

jawed said:


> Blu 2 + the amplifier is all that's required for listening to digital on speakers.




If this is so...Then the digital amp does the final scale up from 16fs to 2048fs (the 16fs comes from BLU2 to the amp across the dual SPDIF). Wow. RW said the step from 16fs to 256 and then to 2048 was far less FPGA intensive than the first Mscaler step to 16fs. So the amp will have that PLUS the noise shaper and pulse array direct conversion to amplified analog?? And with a volume control!
Is this conjecture or reality? It makes great sense!


----------



## x RELIC x

Well, the full duties of the digital amp aren't confirmed by Rob and there are a lot of questions about its function which is the whole reason the Mscalar/DAVE/digital amp stack is confusing. For example, which device handles the jitter timing? Does the Blu mk2 and digital amp leave the DAVE out of the mix, or is the DAVE still required? Too many unknowns to confirm anything at this point.


----------



## EVOLVIST

miketlse said:


> No.
> 
> DAVE outputs an analogue signal. What is the point of feeding an analogue signal into a digital amp?
> 
> Devialet approach the problem by using an ADC convert the analogue input > the digital signal processing > then the DAC to convert the modified digital signal back to analogue > the headphones or speakers.




Because amplifying what was once an analog signal has to happen in the digital domain to be processed again without added distortion (though according to somebody else - me getting second-hand information - that Rob claims that distortion will be in the amp, but nominal and cannot be heard). 

But maybe I'm wrong. Who knows; I probably am. 

Jawed,though, DSD is handled by the Blu2. Indeed, Rob has said he prefers the DSD filter in the Blu2 than that of the DAVE, though he was quick to point out that it is personal preference. 

The "Super DAC" thing is pure conjecture, as well. I see where you're headed, but for all we know from what Rob has also said, the "digital amps" could be rolled out in increments, starting with the 20w model, which simply won't cut it for more demanding speakers - meaning 80% or more of what's out there.


----------



## EVOLVIST

rob watts said:


> The DX outputs will go to my DX input power amps - so these are specially designed digital input power amps that will decode the DX outputs from Dave.
> 
> I have started work on the next issue of PCB's for the first power amp.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


rob watts said:


> The power amp prototype has been stuck on my desk waiting for me to test it for a year now. So my priorities this year is the amp and Davina.
> 
> Combining Dave with the amp using the digital outputs, I am eagerly anticipating, as I expect a huge increase in transparency - in short, it will eliminate the sound of a power amp, you will be left with the equivalence of just the sound of Dave driving loudspeakers directly.
> 
> Rob


 
  
  


rob watts said:


> Dave has 705/768 kHz DX digital outputs to go with my digital power amps. These are non-switching, but still retain the analogue simplicity of two resistors and 2 capacitors plus a single global feedback path. But power output will be from 20W to at least 200W. I just finished testing the DX outputs today.
> 
> The first DX power amp will be available next year and will initially be 20W RMS with a 70W mono-block option.
> 
> Rob


 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/4800#post_12871615


----------



## Jawed

Blu 2 has 705/768 kHz DX digital outputs. The digital amplifier is designed with a volume control.

Now playing: The Jesus and Mary Chain - Never Understand


----------



## Triode User

jawed said:


> Blu 2 has 705/768 kHz DX digital outputs. The digital amplifier is designed with a volume control.
> 
> Now playing: The Jesus and Mary Chain - Never Understand


 

 Are you implying that you think / know that the Dave may not be needed? ie Upscaler direct to new digital amp?
  
 Of course the problem with trying to double guess what will be released is that it depends on what other kit Chord release in the meantime and whether Blu2 and Dave are still their flagship digital processors at the time.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

triode user said:


> Are you implying that you think / know that the Dave may not be needed? ie Upscaler direct to new digital amp?
> 
> Of course the problem with trying to double guess what will be released is that it depends on what other kit Chord release in the meantime and whether Blu2 and Dave are still their flagship digital processors at the time.


 
  
 This is my question too.  It would be nice if RW could throw us a bone here.  DAVE owners are heavily invested in Chord...


----------



## miketlse

bigfatpaulie said:


> This is my question too.  It would be nice if RW could throw us a bone here.  DAVE owners are heavily invested in Chord...


 
  
 Whatever the overall system, you need a DAC (plus mosfets?) as the final stage, to ensure that you are feeding an analogue signal to the speakers.
 You cannot have the existing DAVE as that DAC, because it will only provide an output power of 2 W (enough for some high efficiency speakers, but not the majority of speakers).
  
 If the DAVE was the final stage, then why bother developing a digital amplifier with a power of 20W?
 Maybe DAVE is the interim stage, utilising its upscaling, but you will still need something else to provide the 20W.
  
 I don't think RW can throw any bones for a long while yet.
  
  
 My wish list for the long term vision is for Chord to be developing a single box device like Devialet power amps, but that will not help existing DAVE owners.
 analogue or digital inputs > digital amp > DAC to speakers.
  
 RW will have all the individual elements designed in maybe a couple of years (Davina, DAVE, digital amps, etc), but I suspect that Chord are developing the many boxes solution for the next few years.


----------



## EVOLVIST

All I know a right now is that I need an interim solution for amplification. If all goes well, I pay for my dream speakers tomorrow, so I need an amp that isn't too much of a bottleneck with the DAVE. 

That Benchmark AHB2, at least on paper, sounds like to a winner. So does the TToby (or a larger Chord amp with more wattage). Even the SPL Performer s800. But really, I want to be done. If the future new Chord line of amps doesn't suit my needs then I have to think permenant solution, too. 

Really, I'm sure that the M-Scaler + DAVE can keep me going for a good long while.


----------



## Triode User

evolvist said:


> All I know a right now is that I need an interim solution for amplification. If all goes well, I pay for my dream speakers tomorrow, so I need an amp that isn't too much of a bottleneck with the DAVE.
> 
> That Benchmark AHB2, at least on paper, sounds like to a winner. So does the TToby (or a larger Chord amp with more wattage). Even the SPL Performer s800. But really, I want to be done. If the future new Chord line of amps doesn't suit my needs then I have to think permenant solution, too.
> 
> Really, I'm sure that the M-Scaler + DAVE can keep me going for a good long while.


 

 Just a word of caution, how do you know they are your dream speakers? Have you auditioned them? Or are you relying on a trial period after purchase?
  
 Also, if they are the 99db speakers that you have gone in the direction of in order to drive direct from Dave then they might not be your dream speakers when you connect the to an amp with a bit of poke. Indeed, if you get an amp capable of driving some less efficient speakers then your options are somewhat wider and not just restricted to high efficiency speakers (which may or may not be a compromised design to achieve the high efficiency).


----------



## JaZZ

triode user said:


> evolvist said:
> 
> 
> > All I know a right now is that I need an interim solution for amplification. If all goes well, I pay for my dream speakers tomorrow, so I need an amp that isn't too much of a bottleneck with the DAVE.
> ...


 
  
 Good arguments – which I absolutely share. I haven't met high-efficiency speakers passably matching my sonic ideals, let alone fullrange speakers. On the other hand, to others their undisputable merits may be what they're looking for essentially.


----------



## EVOLVIST

triode user said:


> Just a word of caution, how do you know they are your dream speakers? Have you auditioned them? Or are you relying on a trial period after purchase?
> 
> Also, if they are the 99db speakers that you have gone in the direction of in order to drive direct from Dave then they might not be your dream speakers when you connect the to an amp with a bit of poke. Indeed, if you get an amp capable of driving some less efficient speakers then your options are somewhat wider and not just restricted to high efficiency speakers (which may or may not be a compromised design to achieve the high efficiency).




No, they are Eggleston Works Andra II and I'm very familiar with them, as a friend owns a pair. I found a mint pair still in the crates for well below the $20k MSRP.


----------



## JaZZ

evolvist said:


> triode user said:
> 
> 
> > Just a word of caution, how do you know they are your dream speakers? Have you auditioned them? Or are you relying on a trial period after purchase?
> ...


 
  
 So you have changed your mind completely!? Didn't you like the Omegas?


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## EVOLVIST

jazz said:


> So you have changed your mind completely!? Didn't you like the Omegas?




Oh, I like the Omega speakers, but in the end I realized that anything I was reaching out for other than the speakers that made me eschew headphones, was just a half-measure. That's not why I bought DAVE and it's not why I'm buying the Blu2 so that I can compromise in audio. 

So, I'll chalk it up to the growing pains of moving from headphones to speakers. 

That my wife and I have been able to work things out, and now that I'm back home, I can now turn my parlour into a nice listening room that's befitting these behometh speakers. I've now dropped my DAVE into my friend's rig three times, most recently with the Icon tube amp I've been auditioning, and though the amp doesn't suit my taste, it's the speakers that really synergies with me. You just can't compromise on that. 

The Omega CAMs are, indeed, brilliant, only they are limited to nearfield and I want room-filling audio. So does my family. If I'm putting all of this cash into my hobby, I might as well share it with the rest of the gang. I can only imagine what the Blu2 will do to speakers that are already amazing in their presentation, depth and accuracy. 

I don't know if I'll have to get into much room treatment, but that's not a bad price considering I'm getting these speakers for a song. 

The only question mark is what amp I end up using.


----------



## Triode User

evolvist said:


> No, they are Eggleston Works Andra II and I'm very familiar with them, as a friend owns a pair. I found a mint pair still in the crates for well below the $20k MSRP.


 

 Haha, you are ridiculous!!
  
 I guess that the Icon Audio amp didn't sound toooo bad though? Maybe you should see if you have a hear to an 845 tube amp but I suspect your heart isn't in it?


----------



## EVOLVIST

triode user said:


> Haha, you are ridiculous!!
> 
> I guess that the Icon Audio amp didn't sound toooo bad though? Maybe you should see if you have a hear to an 845 tube amp but I suspect your heart isn't in it?




What's so ridiculous? 

The Icon amp sounded very shouty with the Omega speakers, but pretty damn good with the Andra IIs, only there wasn't enough power with this model Icon to drive them with authority. 

I would be gear to try the mono blocks, only there's nobody in the States that have them in stock for an audition, or I would have tried those, first (even though they would have been overkill for the Omega speakers). 

Though, if you're going to come off pretentious, don't bother, as most of us should know, and I've never argued, that synergy and subjectivity drives a lot of our listening preferences.


----------



## Weatherlight

evolvist said:


> The only question mark is what amp I end up using.




How about Chord's TOTL integrated, CPM 3350? And pair it with Magnepan 20.7. I think that's well within your budget since you're considering the Andra II. The Maggies doesn't require much room treatment, also.


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## EVOLVIST

weatherlight said:


> How about Chord's TOTL integrated, CPM 3350? And pair it with Magnepan 20.7. I think that's well within your budget since you're considering the Andra II. The Maggies doesn't require much room treatment, also.




That's a good suggestion, and something I'm considering, but I don't want to flip-flop on speakers anymore. Ha! But yeah, I'm looking into various Chord amps, only not integrated...and not closing my mind to tube/valve gear, either. 

After all, I have to do something to occupy my hobby while awaiting the Blu2.


----------



## ray-dude

For those using the Dave in a home theatre setup, what have you settled on to mix dedicated 2 channel audio through the Dave + 2 channel amp, with a multi-channel setup through an AV receiver?  (Dave does not seem to have a home theatre bypass mode)
  
 My Dave should be arriving soon for my 2 channel set up, and at the same time I'm researching components for a multi-channel set up


----------



## Triode User

evolvist said:


> What's so ridiculous?
> 
> The Icon amp sounded very shouty with the Omega speakers, but pretty damn good with the Andra IIs, only there wasn't enough power with this model Icon to drive them with authority.
> 
> ...


 

 The ridiculous comment was only an attempt at humour having one minute said you were going after some 99dB speakers and the next you have bought the Andra IIs!
  
 I am not surprised that the valve amp didn't suit the Omega speakers. I suspect it was emphasising their shortcomings.
  
 The Andra II speakers look totally awesome! I am glad your domestics are sorted out so you can give some Andra IIs a home!


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## rgs9200m

The Andras were designed by Albert Von Schweikert, a legendary speaker designer.


----------



## EVOLVIST

triode user said:


> The ridiculous comment was only an attempt at humour having one minute said you were going after some 99dB speakers and the next you have bought the Andra IIs!
> 
> I am not surprised that the valve amp didn't suit the Omega speakers. I suspect it was emphasising their shortcomings.
> 
> The Andra II speakers look totally awesome! I am glad your domestics are sorted out so you can give some Andra IIs a home!




Thank you! 

Even though my heels are a bit cooled because of the delay in the Blu2, I got word today that I have that TToby coming in for review. It will be great to plug it into DAVE and feed those speakers. It hasn't gotten a lot of press, but this amp is John Franks putting quite a bit of power into a wee box. 

In other new, DAVE is still the best DAC on the planet. I like that.


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## EVOLVIST

rgs9200m said:


> The Andras were designed by Albert Von Schweikert, a legendary speaker designer.




'Tis true. I've never heard a better set of speakers, and I've tried for years to find some that fit my taste enough to abandon headphones. 

I'm not saying they are the best in the world. I'm only saying they are the best that I've personally heard, out of maybe at least 50 rigs. Some of those rigs being worth as much as a few small countries.


----------



## Crgreen

evolvist said:


> That's a good suggestion, and something I'm considering, but I don't want to flip-flop on speakers anymore. Ha! But yeah, I'm looking into various Chord amps, only not integrated...and not closing my mind to tube/valve gear, either.
> 
> After all, I have to do something to occupy my hobby while awaiting the Blu2.




There's always the option of last resort - listening to some music, for pleasure


----------



## TheAttorney

Since getting my HEK V2s a few months ago, I've very much warmed to Dave's cross-feed feature.
 Amongst other things, it reduces the perceived soundstage's width and slightly increases depth, resulting in more solid holographic images.
 I imagine other headphones with large (and particularly wide) sound stages would also benefit considerably.
 I could do with even more depth, but hey, one step at a time.
  
 But there's a downside in that the sound gets smoother/duller, with an apparent loss of air, sparkle and fine detail.
 The greater the cross-feed the greater this smoothing effect.
  
 Option 1 has the lowest cross-feed and the least loss of air/sparkle/detail. I like this best for some tracks. .
 Option 2 has more cross-feed and more air/sparkle/detail loss, but I use it most because it gives the most holographic result.
 Option 3 I can't work this one out. It doesn't seem to follow the same change progression as the first two, and is just too smooth for me. It's got something going for it, but I can't put my finger on what that is. 
  
 When I tried Roon's new cross-feed function. this is fully configurable, but the provided defaults gave an even greater smoothing/dulling effect, so I prefer Dave's versions as a start point..
  
 I can think of at least 3 possible explanations about the loss of air/sparkle/detail:
  
 1. There is no loss in detail, it's just our brains not used to the sound entering our ears in a more natural way - so it's a reduction of a certain kind of distortion that previously gave the false illusion of detail.
  
 2. The cross-feed algorithm directly reduces Higher Frequency content as part of its design, so I'm hearing a direct drop in HF content..
  
 3. It's a form of DSP, and all DSP will lose transparency to some extent.
  
 Or could be any combination of all three.
  
 Maybe Rob or someone could shed some light on this? 
  
 Overall, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages - to the point I can barely listen to my HEK's on Option 0 anymore on some tracks


----------



## Rob Watts

The cross-feed function includes EQ to compensate for the head shadowing effect; this means that LF's are boosted by 1.5dB and this would account for the warmer balance.
  
 Since I have been using Hugo 2 a lot on my travels, I find the cross-feed is absolutely essential to get good depth. I was listening music that had some bells, and it spookily sounded like the bells were in the aircraft; I was so stunned by it I took the headphones off, and realized it was on the recording! But with cross-feed off that "out of your head" illusion completely collapsed.
  
 Rob


----------



## JaZZ

theattorney said:


> Since getting my HEK V2s a few months ago, I've very much warmed to Dave's cross-feed feature.
> Amongst other things, it reduces the perceived soundstage's width and slightly increases depth, resulting in more solid holographic images.
> I imagine other headphones with large (and particularly wide) sound stages would also benefit considerably.
> I could do with even more depth, but hey, one step at a time.
> ...


 
  


rob watts said:


> *The cross-feed function includes EQ to compensate for the head shadowing effect; this means that LF's are boosted by 1.5dB and this would account for the warmer balance.*
> 
> Since I have been using Hugo 2 a lot on my travels, I find the cross-feed is absolutely essential to get good depth. I was listening music that had some bells, and it spookily sounded like the bells were in the aircraft; I was so stunned by it I took the headphones off, and realized it was on the recording! But with cross-feed off that "out of your head" illusion completely collapsed.


 
  
 Yes, indeed the Hugo's and the DAVE's crossfeed add a slight bit too much bass for my liking, although I would still have it activated (I equalize anyway) if I weren't using my own crossfeed, comprising five intensities. It doesn't – perceivedly – add any bass at all. I need crossfeed with my DAPs, too, which I often use on their own, e.g. for jogging, therefore I have to crossfeed my music collection manually.
  
@TheAttorney: A solution for you may be attenuating the 60 Hz band by ~1 dB with a Q of 1 (or lower).


----------



## TheAttorney

Hmm, I'm a bit skeptical that a slight bass boost would fully explain the effects I'm hearing.  It seems to me to be more of a transparency thing.
 Still, I never dismiss ideas until I try them, so I'll see if an EQ change to the bass counters the effect I'm noticing.
  
 I may have missed something here, but if the bass boost is put into cross-feed in order to counter a tonal anomaly fundamentally caused by headphone listening, then I wonder why headphone designers don't incorporate that into their own designs at the start?


----------



## JaZZ

theattorney said:


> *Hmm, I'm a bit skeptical that a slight bass boost would fully explain the effects I'm hearing.  It seems to me to be more of a transparency thing.*
> Still, I never dismiss ideas until I try them, so I'll see if an EQ change to the bass counters the effect I'm noticing.
> 
> I may have missed something here, but if the bass boost is put into cross-feed in order to counter a tonal anomaly fundamentally caused by headphone listening, then I wonder why headphone designers don't incorporate that into their own designs at the start?


 
  
 To my ears the amount of bass with the HE1000 has an enormous effect on the perception of transparency – the frequency response generally. That's why I swear by equalizing.


----------



## TheAttorney

> To my ears the amount of bass with the HE1000 has an enormous effect on the perception of transparency – the frequency response generally. That's why I swear by equalizing.


 
  
 I'll give it a try when I get back home at the weekend.
  
 @Rob, is the amount of bass boost the same for all three cross-feed options?


----------



## Rob Watts

Setting 1 is about 1 dB boost from DC to 1 kHz; 2 is 1.5 dB, 3 is about 1.9 dB. The LF change is a requirement in order to give the correct time delays for each ear.
  
 I am confident that the change you are hearing is down to the EQ and not a reduction in transparency because the depth perception improves; with DSP if there is a problem in transparency you hear it with depth getting worse as DSP's problem is small signal non-linearity. But with cross-feed on, depth gets much better.
  
 Rob


----------



## ray-dude

Just received my Chord Dave this morning (thank you @Modwright01!)
  
 Going through my audition playlist, enjoying the heck out of this thing.  The layers of detail are pretty breathtaking.  So immersive and engaging (this is a horrible DAC to have in the office   It will take a little while to stop running around the candy store and really settle in on this one.
  
 Can't wait to wire it into my 2 channel setup tonight and really take it for a spin.
  
 (as an aside, if this is baseline, I literally can't imagine what the mscaler will do to get it to that next level, but can't wait to hear it!)


----------



## Peter Hyatt

ray-dude said:


> Just received my Chord Dave this morning (thank you @Modwright01!)
> 
> Going through my audition playlist, enjoying the heck out of this thing.  The layers of detail are pretty breathtaking.  Some immersive and engaging (this is a horrible DAC to have in the office   It will take a little while to stop running around the candy store and really settle in on this one.
> 
> ...


 

 Congratulations!  this is fun to read.


----------



## miketlse

ray-dude said:


> Just received my Chord Dave this morning (thank you @Modwright01!)
> 
> Going through my audition playlist, enjoying the heck out of this thing.  The layers of detail are pretty breathtaking.  So immersive and engaging (this is a horrible DAC to have in the office   It will take a little while to stop running around the candy store and really settle in on this one.
> 
> ...


 
 Enjoy DAVE for a few months, and then Rob will announce the Ultra HD version of Mscalar, giving you 4 million taps - here's hoping anyway.


----------



## ray-dude

miketlse said:


> Enjoy DAVE for a few months, and then Rob will announce the Ultra HD version of Mscalar, giving you 4 million taps - here's hoping anyway.


 
  
 My hope is that Rob can get to 4M then 8M taps in time for my vintage hearing to still hear the difference!
 As a freshly minted DAVE owner, it's the digital amp I both can't wait for and am nervous about (the mscaler is nothing but goodness in all scenarios!)


----------



## miketlse

ray-dude said:


> My hope is that Rob can get to 4M then 8M taps in time for my vintage hearing to still hear the difference!
> As a freshly minted DAVE owner, it's the digital amp I both can't wait for and am nervous about (the mscaler is nothing but goodness in all scenarios!)


 
  
 I hope that your hearing stays sharp.
 At the current rate of change, all predictions about how fast Rob will push the hifi boundaries, seem to be too pessimistic.


----------



## ray-dude

miketlse said:


> I hope that your hearing stays sharp.
> At the current rate of change, all predictions about how fast Rob will push the hifi boundaries, seem to be too pessimistic.


 

 I was actually talking to a friend this morning about how the pace of FPGA innovation (better than Moore's law) is 2-3x faster than high end DAC life cycles.  Hugo2 level performance should be pretty phenomenal, and it will be interesting to see how H2+mscaler compares to DAVE+mscaler.  With Davina to drive closed loop development/optimization, the pace of innovation will be amazing.


----------



## jlbrach

ray-dude said:


> My hope is that Rob can get to 4M then 8M taps in time for my vintage hearing to still hear the difference!
> As a freshly minted DAVE owner, it's the digital amp I both can't wait for and am nervous about (the mscaler is nothing but goodness in all scenarios!)


 
 the question is when do we reach the point of diminishing returns....I can buy a car that can go 220 mph but cant use it anywhere....if human hearing cannot truly appreciate the improvements then what?....


----------



## miketlse

jlbrach said:


> the question is when do we reach the point of diminishing returns....I can buy a car that can go 220 mph but cant use it anywhere....if human hearing cannot truly appreciate the improvements then what?....


 
 You can create mathematical models based on theory, that predict that the point of diminishing returns starts at x.
 All models are an abstraction of reality, but they are not reality itself.
 The only way to prove/disprove if the model is realistic, is to build the physical device, and test it.


----------



## esimms86

ray-dude said:


> My hope is that Rob can get to 4M then 8M taps in time for my vintage hearing to still hear the difference!
> 
> As a freshly minted DAVE owner, it's the digital amp I both can't wait for and am nervous about (the mscaler is nothing but goodness in all scenarios!)




With Davina Rob plans to test the limits to see whether or not it will prove to be beneficial to go beyond 1M taps. Who knows, maybe he'll find out that you need to 10M taps or 100M taps to make a significant enough audible difference. In the meantime, we lose high frequency hearing as we get older(and if we're not careful) but we shouldn't lose the ability to hear improvements timing or soundstage.


----------



## Beolab

rob watts said:


> The cross-feed function includes EQ to compensate for the head shadowing effect; this means that LF's are boosted by 1.5dB and this would account for the warmer balance.
> 
> Since I have been using Hugo 2 a lot on my travels, I find the cross-feed is absolutely essential to get good depth. I was listening music that had some bells, and it spookily sounded like the bells were in the aircraft; I was so stunned by it I took the headphones off, and realized it was on the recording! But with cross-feed off that "out of your head" illusion completely collapsed.
> 
> Rob




Its funny you mention this, because in my setup with my open planar Abyss headphones with DHC cables connected to DAVE, i get much more "out of the head experience" with it set to OFF, than with the cross feed ON. The resolution and micro timing gets affected, and a slight more lush bass. 
It feels a little dull in my favorite setup, but with other headphones i got like HD650 / HD800 and Ultrasone Ed 12 , Stax SR-009 ( with sep. Amp )i feel the cross feed function do a little better work, but my liking is to have it set to off most of the time, for the best spacious and out of the head feeling.


----------



## dguitarnut

I don't wanna get flamed but you haven't heard what Dave can do until you listen to it on a high quality speaker system. 
There, i said it.


----------



## Beolab

If you where directing that to me i have one DAVE installed in our store to our 67.000 € high end speakers, and its sounds very nice, as good as my headphones i would say, but diffrent vs headspeakers ( Abyss Phi ) .


----------



## ray-dude

dguitarnut said:


> I don't wanna get flamed but you haven't heard what Dave can do until you listen to it on a high quality speaker system.
> There, i said it.


 

 First impressions:
  
 With headphones, I was astonished at the musicality and magic that the DAVE brought to the table.  It was a continuous smile as I jumped around favorite tracks.  Every thing was just better and more engaging/pleasing/emotional
  
 I dropped it into my 2 channel system last night, and did not have the "wow" that I had with headphones.  The marginal lift was there, but not the leap I had heard with headphones.
  
 That being said, I hear gaps with the 2 channel system better.  There is a lot of room for tuning (and I knew I had a lot of room tuning to do), but the tuning opportunities are more vivid now.  Looking forward to squeezing the 2 channel set up and seeing how far DAVE helps me push it


----------



## theveterans

> First impressions:
> 
> With headphones, I was astonished at the musicality and magic that the DAVE brought to the table.  It was a continuous smile as I jumped around favorite tracks.  Every thing was just better and more engaging/pleasing/emotional
> 
> ...


 
  
 You just need the room treatment then DAVE should give the same magic that you get with headphones


----------



## KMann

beolab said:


> It feels a little dull in my favorite setup, but with other headphones i got like HD650 / HD800 and Ultrasone Ed 12 , Stax SR-009 ( with sep. Amp )i feel the cross feed function do a little better work, but my liking is to have it set to off most of the time, for the best spacious and out of the head feeling.


 
  
 How do you use cross-feed through an external amp for SR-009? I thought cross-feed is available only through headphone out.


----------



## dguitarnut

My listening room/office is sort of sound isolated small 11x14. My speakers are set up in nearfied fashion 3ft from side walls 5ft apart and 5ft from back wall with slight adjustments to these numbers as I dialed in the sound with movement of speakers and listening chair.. I probably have $30K in my system but who is counting. It is anchored by Magico S1mk2 speakers.
 When I a/b speaker system versus headphones, speakers win out every time. Now I must admit that headphones held the upper edge until I reached this plateau including speaker cable and interconnect upgrades. My setup is really just considered an entry system to but it's a very transparent crisp and accurate sound. Yes you can spend obscene money on speaker systems but I'm already beyond my paygrade and with the addition of the Dave it was the icing on the cake which crossed that line into sublime sound for me. 
 But you can't beat a good set of headphones when you don't have sound isolation from outside world or to the outside world. 
I sold my master-9, ecc445, lcdxc, He-6,and Hd-800 once I figured out I was damaging my ears and developing tinnitus lol.
All I have left is my trusty Fostex Th-900 which I can plug into my Dave and give me wife isolation.


----------



## JaZZ

kmann said:


> beolab said:
> 
> 
> > It feels a little dull in my favorite setup, but with other headphones i got like HD650 / HD800 and Ultrasone Ed 12 , Stax SR-009 ( with sep. Amp )i feel the cross feed function do a little better work, but my liking is to have it set to off most of the time, for the best spacious and out of the head feeling.
> ...


 
  
 Yes, that's true. In this case the best solution would be to feed the electrostatic amp via DAVE's headphone output, which shouldn't cause any loss of sound quality.


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## Automata

New to this forum. Just ordered a black Dave from my dealer, I can't wait to try it out with my Utopia and TH900 headphone.


----------



## JaZZ

Welcome to Head-Fi and congrats on your decision! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 You won't regret it – I also bought my black DAVE blind and am more than satisfied.


----------



## ray-dude

automata said:


> New to this forum. Just ordered a black Dave from my dealer, I can't wait to try it out with my Utopia and TH900 headphone.


 

 DAVE+Utopia should be a stellar match.  I may have to ask @darinf to borrow his Utopias again!
  
 With my new DAVE, I've fallen in love with my Audio Zenith PMx2's all over again (they've gone from incredible to extraordinary)


----------



## Beolab

kmann said:


> How do you use cross-feed through an external amp for SR-009? I thought cross-feed is available only through headphone out.




I am using a Atlas Hyper Metic 1/4" - RCA phono adapter cable occasionally


----------



## KMann

jazz said:


> Yes, that's true. In this case the best solution would be to feed the electrostatic amp via DAVE's headphone output, which shouldn't cause any loss of sound quality.


 


beolab said:


> I am using a Atlas Hyper Metic 1/4" - RCA phono adapter cable occasionally


 
 Thank you. Never thought of doing that. Though the only time I use cross-feed is if the bass is hard panned.


----------



## x RELIC x

kmann said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, that's true. In this case the best solution would be to feed the electrostatic amp via DAVE's headphone output, which shouldn't cause any loss of sound quality.
> ...




Typically, cross-feed is implemented to bring the hard panning closer together in a mix. On the DAVE I find the cross-feed to closer represent a binaraul recording where instruments are further separated and more like speakers. YMMV.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ray-dude said:


> First impressions:
> 
> With headphones, I was astonished at the musicality and magic that the DAVE brought to the table.  It was a continuous smile as I jumped around favorite tracks.  Every thing was just better and more engaging/pleasing/emotional
> 
> ...




What's your amp?


----------



## ray-dude

evolvist said:


> What's your amp?




Classe 2300 feeding B&w 802d3's

Actually ordered a Benchmark amp this week to trial and compare with the Classe. Should be here in a week


----------



## EVOLVIST

ray-dude said:


> Classe 2300 feeding B&w 802d3's
> 
> Actually ordered a Benchmark amp this week to trial and compare with the Classe. Should be here in a week




It's interesting. I've dropped my DAVE into 3 different systems and bam! - immediate improvement. 

The Benchmark AHB2. I will be auditioning that amp, as well. It's also pretty cool how one can run these as two mono amps,which isn't an uncommon thing to do; nevertheless, it makes me wonder if they are what they say they are. I can't seem to get it through my head how every amp on the planet won't have its shortingcomings with the DAVE. Oh well. I'll at least upon an interim solution until Chord comes out with their new digital amps.


----------



## Articnoise

jazz said:


> To my ears the amount of bass with the HE1000 has an enormous effect on the perception of transparency – the frequency response generally. That's why I swear by equalizing.


 
 Yes transparency can get reduced by subbases. Two reasons:

  

*1. *  1. The bass wave mask other frequencies: The bass mask other lower signals so you can’t hear those frequencies as clearly (this happens also in non-recorded live events, so it’s natural). 
  
 2.   2. The transducer mask other frequencies: If only using one transducer like in most headphones. The membrane has to move simultaneously to create all frequency. The more the membrane has to move in and out to produce low bass the harder it is to also simultaneously make the small moves to create other higher frequencies so they doesn’t gets infected or smeared. It’s vital to understand that a membrane has to move longer distance in and out the lower the frequency, but the rate of the membrane move is higher the higher the frequency. In other words: To produce waves in all audio frequencies is pretty hard with only one transducer because the transducer has to move to make sound waves that are very different in wave size.


----------



## onsionsi

articnoise said:


> Yes transparency can get reduced by subbases. Two reasons:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm totally concur with you but the membrane movements in Electrostatic headphone differ than in Planar and Magnetic headphone to produce the frequencies.


----------



## ray-dude

evolvist said:


> It's interesting. I've dropped my DAVE into 3 different systems and bam! - immediate improvement.
> 
> The Benchmark AHB2. I will be auditioning that amp, as well. It's also pretty cool how one can run these as two mono amps,which isn't an uncommon thing to do; nevertheless, it makes me wonder if they are what they say they are. I can't seem to get it through my head how every amp on the planet won't have its shortingcomings with the DAVE. Oh well. I'll at least upon an interim solution until Chord comes out with their new digital amps.


 
  
 Yup, we're thinking similarly.  
  
 I should say that I did hear a difference, just not the jaw dropping difference I heard with headphones.  I know its there to be found though!
  
 My plan is to use the DAVE to tune up the speaker placement, compare the Classe to the Benchmark and see what the speed and ultra low noise/distortion buys me, then compare the various gain modes of the Benchmark to see what transparency lift there's to be had.  If the low gain mode of the benchmark wins, then I'll switch it to mono and see if a single Benchmark in low gain mode can effectively drive a single speaker.  
  
 At the end of all this, I'll know what my bridge strategy is until the Chord digital amp comes out (or at least until I have a Blu/Davina to distract me 
  
  
 Good news is that the Benchmark amp is a VERY polite 15 pounds, so very easy to swap in and out, ship around, etc.  I appreciate the very generous 30 day return policy from Benchmark that will let me do the in depth eval in my setup.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ray-dude said:


> At the end of all this, I'll know what my bridge strategy is until the Chord digital amp comes out (or at least until I have a Blu/Davina to distract me




Yeah, the only thing is, I feel it's going to be a good while until the Chord digital amps come out with enough wattage for big speakers. The first one will be only 20w, and it sounds like it will be an incremental rollout. Oh well, it will allow me to save my pennies, because I have the Blu2 on pre-order, so I had better stop for awhile. Heh. Also, I'm on a mini vacation and I'll be back at the house on Monday, where I have a brand spanking new TToby waiting for me to eval and review. I might just end up going with that one in the meantime. 

One thing about the Benchmark, though; I've read at least 20 reviews and a number of people swear by the Benchmark cables, too, as an all-in-one package. People have sat aside their $1k cables for Benchmark quad-star cables with speakON connectors. I'm going to try those, as well, along with their RCA to XLR cables, because I still want the better single-ended advantage of the DAVE's single OP, being more pure than the DAVE's XLR outs.


----------



## SunWarrior

Been reading about high-end fuses and how they (can) improve sound.

But does the DAVE take fuses? Can't see that in the unit.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## EVOLVIST

sunwarrior said:


> Been reading about high-end fuses and how they (can) improve sound.
> 
> But does the DAVE take fuses? Can't see that in the unit.
> 
> ...




No. No fuses.


----------



## Triode User

sunwarrior said:


> Been reading about high-end fuses and how they (can) improve sound.
> 
> But does the DAVE take fuses? Can't see that in the unit.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Quote:


evolvist said:


> No. No fuses.


 

 You were forgetting the obvious fuse hidden in plain sight.
  
 From the Chord tech support web page,
  
 "If DAVE is no longer functioning, please first try replacing *the 3amp fuse contained within the supplied mains IEC cable* and perform a full power cycle. If no signs of life are detected please contact your original retailer to arrange repair at an authorised service centre."
  
 Now SunWarrier can go searching for a $5,000 foo cable, plug and 3 amp foose. And not forgetting a foo IEC plug into the Dave.


----------



## EVOLVIST

!!!!


----------



## smial1966

The `problem' with this theory is that American mains plugs aren't fused and instead rely on trip switches (within the household fusebox or consumer unit) to cut electrical power to a circuit.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Quote:


triode user said:


> You were forgetting the obvious fuse hidden in plain sight.
> 
> From the Chord tech support web page,
> 
> ...


----------



## Triode User

smial1966 said:


> The `problem' with this theory is that American mains plugs aren't fused and instead rely on trip switches (within the household fusebox or consumer unit) to cut electrical power to a circuit.


 
 I hadn't realised that about American plugs. Do they normally have a mains fuse within the chassis of the HiFi component?
  
 Some of my UK manufactured kit has an IEC input socket incorporating a fuse as well as the one in the UK plug.
  
 My HiFi kit has been saved on at least two occasions by blowing the low amp mains fuse.
  
 Still, at least our American friends are saved from spending on $$$$$ foo fuses.


----------



## Articnoise

onsionsi said:


> I'm totally concur with you but the membrane movements in Electrostatic headphone differ than in Planar and Magnetic headphone to produce the frequencies.


 
  

 The driver and principle for electrostatic headphone differ from planar and dynamic con woofers. The membrane/diaphragm on the other hand is very similar between planar and electrostatic headphones. Planar and electrostatic transducers use a very thin, flat film as diaphragm which moves to make sound waves the same way. Dynamic woofers are more different and have a con shaped woofer as diaphragm that is thicker and moves a bit different to make sound waves.


----------



## ray-dude

evolvist said:


> Yeah, the only thing is, I feel it's going to be a good while until the Chord digital amps come out with enough wattage for big speakers. The first one will be only 20w, and it sounds like it will be an incremental rollout. Oh well, it will allow me to save my pennies, because I have the Blu2 on pre-order, so I had better stop for awhile. Heh. Also, I'm on a mini vacation and I'll be back at the house on Monday, where I have a brand spanking new TToby waiting for me to eval and review. I might just end up going with that one in the meantime.
> 
> One thing about the Benchmark, though; I've read at least 20 reviews and a number of people swear by the Benchmark cables, too, as an all-in-one package. People have sat aside their $1k cables for Benchmark quad-star cables with speakON connectors. I'm going to try those, as well, along with their RCA to XLR cables, because I still want the better single-ended advantage of the DAVE's single OP, being more pure than the DAVE's XLR outs.


 
  
 I fear the same about the Chord digital amp, which is why I'm playing with the Benchmark as a bridge solution.  I am pretending the Blu2 doesn't exist, thank you very much!
  
 I do have a couple of the benchmark cables on order as well, but only the NL2 to banana speaker cables.  I'm not a cable guy, but I'm happy to give them a go and see if anything stands out.
  
 Interesting that singled ended out of the DAVE is superior to the balanced outputs?  I'm about 80 pages into this thread (only 450+ pages to go!  and haven't seen that discussion yet.  Is SE >> Balanced on the DAVE?


----------



## astrostar59

rob watts said:


> Having emphasised the problems with delta-sigma or noise shaping you may think its better to use R2R DAC's instead. But they too have considerable timing errors too; making the timing of signals code independent is impossible. Also they have considerable low level non linearity problems too as its impossible to match the resistor values - much worse than DSD even - so again we are stuck with poor depth, perception of timing and timbre. Not only that they suffer from substantial noise floor modulation, giving a forced hard aggressive edge to them. Some listeners prefer that, and I won't argue with somebody else's taste - whatever works for you. But its not real and it not the sound I hear with live un-amplified instruments.
> 
> Rob


 
 Do the above issues you are quoting occur in an R-2R chip implementation to such an extent?
  
 Also what is your view (guess you have heard one) on an R-2R DAC with the filtering removed and playing at resident Redbook (no oversampling)? I know said designs can look poor in the lab, but I find they can sound fantastic regardless.
  
 Audio Note, Zanden and Areas Cerat Kassandre come to mind (all using R-2R chips).


----------



## EVOLVIST

ray-dude said:


> Interesting that singled ended out of the DAVE is superior to the balanced outputs?  I'm about 80 pages into this thread (only 450+ pages to go!  and haven't seen that discussion yet.  Is SE >> Balanced on the DAVE?




Yes, the single-ended RCAs on the DAVE are superior to the XLR OPs, because the RCAs share the same path as the headphone OP. The sound is identical. The XLRs, on the other hand, have an additional OP amp, thus the 12vRMS they produce. 

Whether you can hear the difference, I don't know. I would rather err on the safe side to get the best out of the DAVE, especially after putting money into the 2ulB (whatever that is).


----------



## x RELIC x

evolvist said:


> Yes, the single-ended RCAs on the DAVE are superior to the XLR OPs, because the RCAs share the same path as the headphone OP. The sound is identical. The XLRs, on the other hand, have an additional OP amp, thus the 12vRMS they produce.
> 
> Whether you can hear the difference, I don't know. I would rather err on the safe side to get the best out of the DAVE, especially after putting money into the 2ulB (whatever that is).




Exactly! The more components in the audio path the less transparency, no matter what the gear is. However, there is also the consideration from the amp side of things. If the amp just sounds that much better using the balanced inputs it will likely supersede any small degradation in transparency from the XLR out vs RCA.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

evolvist said:


> Yes, the single-ended RCAs on the DAVE are superior to the XLR OPs, because the RCAs share the same path as the headphone OP. The sound is identical. The XLRs, on the other hand, have an additional OP amp, thus the 12vRMS they produce.
> 
> Whether you can hear the difference, I don't know. I would rather err on the safe side to get the best out of the DAVE, especially after putting money into the 2ulB (whatever that is).




I compared a pair of Chord Sarum Super Aray RCAs on the Dave against the Chord Sarum Tuned Aray XLRs so a slight advantage to the RCA cables but found I preferred the XLR connection which produced a more dynamic performance. My speakers are fairly large and take a bit of driving. Maybe that is the reason but there was a clear difference in dynamics on my system at least.


----------



## EVOLVIST

daveredref-iii said:


> I compared a pair of Chord Sarum Super Aray RCAs on the Dave against the Chord Sarum Tuned Aray XLRs so a slight advantage to the RCA cables but found I preferred the XLR connection which produced a more dynamic performance. My speakers are fairly large and take a bit of driving. Maybe that is the reason but there was a clear difference in dynamics on my system at least.




What are your speakers rated?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

evolvist said:


> What are your speakers rated?




Piega Coax 90.2 
http://www.piega.ch/e/produkte/coax902.htm


----------



## Triode User

A simple question and hopefully with a simple answer for a simple person like me please.
  
 I normally use an Auralic streamer to output to my Dave but BBC R3 has a trial service for 6 months outputting FLAC and this is only available via the Firefox browser and not via the Auralic.
  
 From the Beeb website.
_"For the duration of the pilot we are providing a simulcast of Radio 3’s live output compressed using FLAC, so it sounds every bit (no pun intended!) as good as when it left us.
*How does it work?*
 We’re using FLAC and MPEG-DASH to deliver losslessly-compressed audio to your browser._
_Because the specification for how to do this is so new, only Firefox (51 or greater) on desktop is able to play our stream, but in time we hope other browsers, mobile devices and internet radio manufacturers will follow suit, and we are actively engaging with vendors to make this happen._
_*Any challenges and what were the solutions?*_
_The main challenge was finding a standards-based approach to delivering lossless audio to the browser. Following discussions with technology partners such as internet radio vendors, it was clear that FLAC would be the preferred compression method, but, at the time, there was no specification describing carriage of FLAC in MP4 for MPEG-DASH._
_During discussions around other technologies, Mozilla and the Xiph.org Foundation offered to standardise encapsulation in MP4, and this was published on 1st January 2017. Firefox support was implemented ahead of this date, and R&D have built a prototype production workflow based on this specification."_
  
 So, for the first time I have therefore been using my iMac's digital output to the Dave.
  
 And here's the simple question. In Audio MIDI Setup, which output frequency should I select to go to the Dave? 44 kHz through to 768 kHz all work, are recognised by the Dave and show up on the Dave display with the correct frequency (32 kHz doesn't, or at least it is broken up and distorted).
  
 I have had a play, as you do, and to my ears and with speech the higher output frequencies sound slightly 'overbright' or even slightly sibilant. Maybe due to the mac being unsuccessful in it's attempt to upsample?
  
 So, what is the answer to life, the universe, everything and also what is the correct output frequency to the Dave? 
  
 42?


----------



## Rob Watts

I was pretty stunned to learn that Radio 3 actually goes through 3 sample rate converters (SRC) - of course not lossless at every SRC. Hopefully with this experiment they have stopped this.
  
 Video sources are 48 kHz; but most music is of course 44.1 kHz; so I would set it at 44.1 kHz for Radio 3.


----------



## Triode User

rob watts said:


> I was pretty stunned to learn that Radio 3 actually goes through 3 sample rate converters (SRC) - of course not lossless at every SRC. Hopefully with this experiment they have stopped this.
> 
> Video sources are 48 kHz; but most music is of course 44.1 kHz; so I would set it at 44.1 kHz for Radio 3.


 

  Many thanks.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Show of hands. Anyone using a pre-amp behind the DAVE, using the DAVE as DAC only?


----------



## jelt2359

evolvist said:


> Show of hands. Anyone using a pre-amp behind the DAVE, using the DAVE as DAC only?


 
 I've tried. The problem is the DAVE smokes every preamp I've used it with, including a $14,495 flagship BAT-VK53SE. At that point I gave up, and now my DAVE is my DAC+Pre. I also tend to now put my external integrated/headamps at the high end of their volume range (or even max) and use the volume control of the Dave.


----------



## ray-dude

jelt2359 said:


> I've tried. The problem is the DAVE smokes every preamp I've used it with, including a $14,495 flagship BAT-VK53SE. At that point I gave up, and now my DAVE is my DAC+Pre. I also tend to now put my external integrated/headamps at the high end of their volume range (or even max) and use the volume control of the Dave.


 
  
 I'm still trying to wrap my head around how to integrate a DAVE 2 channel setup into a home theatre in a way that is family proof (alas, the lack of HT bypass makes things challenging)
  
 What strategies are people doing to fully leverage DAVE in a surround setup?  I only have a 2 channel setup right now (with DAVE as the pre), but am planning out a surround setup


----------



## drbobbybones

evolvist said:


> Show of hands. Anyone using a pre-amp behind the DAVE, using the DAVE as DAC only?




I use the DAVE as a DAC only into my WA22 when I run my HD800's. Sounds better to my ears than through the headphone out on the DAVE. But I run most of my other cans straight out of the DAVE.


----------



## jelt2359

drbobbybones said:


> I use the DAVE as a DAC only into my WA22 when I run my HD800's. Sounds better to my ears than through the headphone out on the DAVE. But I run most of my other cans straight out of the DAVE.


 
 Have you tried WA22 at max volume and controlling the volume via DAVE? Very likely to sound better.


----------



## drbobbybones

jelt2359 said:


> Have you tried WA22 at max volume and controlling the volume via DAVE? Very likely to sound better.




I do something like that. I find the sonic sweet spot for the WA22 is between 12 and 3 o'clock on the volume knob. And I use the volume control on the DAVE to get fine adjustment.


----------



## strangecargo

evolvist said:


> Show of hands. Anyone using a pre-amp behind the DAVE, using the DAVE as DAC only?


 
 I will be using the DAVE with a Spectral DMC-30SV, whenever it arrives. I didn't have the DAVE on hand when I did a take-home demo of the Spectral, but I'm hoping for good things. The DAVE is much better at driving the 6m of cable between my source rack and power amp than my PS Audio DirectStream, but I can't listen to my turntable without a preamp in place.


----------



## EVOLVIST

strangecargo said:


> I will be using the DAVE with a Spectral DMC-30SV, whenever it arrives. I didn't have the DAVE on hand when I did a take-home demo of the Spectral, but I'm hoping for good things. The DAVE is much better at driving the 6m of cable between my source rack and power amp than my PS Audio DirectStream, but I can't listen to my turntable without a preamp in place.


 
  
 Oh, those are beautiful. At first I didn't place the name, but man what an old school look with a modern sound. I love the look of these things. If every audio component looked like you could insert an 8-inch floppy disk, oh what a better world it would be.


----------



## strangecargo

evolvist said:


> Oh, those are beautiful. At first I didn't place the name, but man what an old school look with a modern sound. I love the look of these things. If every audio component looked like you could insert an 8-inch floppy disk, oh what a better world it would be.


 
  
 Haha. Yeah, my initial reaction to the aesthetic was that it looked like a Delorean. I actually wonder if that's what the "DMC" in the product name stands for... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 While I'm here, can somebody help me out with making the best of the USB connection on the DAVE? I know the DAVE employs galvanic isolation on the USB side, but I've picked up through some searching that it's still somewhat affected by the traditional issues that people have with USB. I've been doing some experimentation with some of the USB decrapifiers I have on hand, and this is what I've noticed:
  

iFi iPurifier - small improvement in SQ over nothing
iFi micro iUSB3.0 - serious improvement in noise floor and dynamics, enough that DAVE sounds louder
iFi iPurifier + micro iUSB3.0 combined - hard to tell from #1
  
 I think I've read that the DAVE galvanic isolation is powered by the USB host. Could it be that the USB input responds primarily to clean USB power for the isolation, and that the presence of the iPurifier right at the type B connector of the DAVE is actually reintroducing noise into the system? In all these situations, I'm using a 2m Nordost Blue Heaven USB cable and the USB host is a microRendu running as a Roon endpoint.


----------



## Imusicman

strangecargo said:


> Haha. Yeah, my initial reaction to the aesthetic was that it looked like a Delorean. I actually wonder if that's what the "DMC" in the product name stands for...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I am using the iFi nano iUSB 3.0 in my chain and experienced similar fantastic results. Best upgrade I ever made to my system. Awesome bit of kit. My Dave arrives in two weeks. Can't wait!


----------



## Triode User

evolvist said:


> Show of hands. Anyone using a pre-amp behind the DAVE, using the DAVE as DAC only?


 

 I tried Dave direct to my valve power amps and the sound lost much of it's precision and musicality. I now use a Music First passive transformer pre amp (with silver wound transformers).
  
 It was the same story with the Hugo1 and HugoTT. I tried with a variety of valve amps as well, same difference.


----------



## 7ryder

ray-dude said:


> I'm still trying to wrap my head around how to integrate a DAVE 2 channel setup into a home theatre in a way that is family proof (alas, the lack of HT bypass makes things challenging)
> 
> What strategies are people doing to fully leverage DAVE in a surround setup?  I only have a 2 channel setup right now (with DAVE as the pre), but am planning out a surround setup


 
 my system is a combined HT/2-channel system, so I use a dedicated 2-channel preamp for music and then the HT bypass kicks in and I use a surround processor for TV, movies, etc. See my profile for gear details.


----------



## Jawed

I'll never trust anyone who reports that an additional component between DAVE and power amplification in their system sounds better. It means the entire system is sub-optimal.

Some manufacturers of hi-fi deliberately engineer faults into their power amplifiers so that their pre-amps improve the perceived performance.

If on the other hand, you just like colouration, then I dunno, why buy DAVE? 

I can only guess these people who like polluting DAVE's output would hate listening to the master tape because it's lacking colouration.

Now playing: The Silver Mt. Zion Memorial Orchestra & Tra-La-La Band - Could've Moved Mountains


----------



## Mediahound

jawed said:


> I'll never trust anyone who reports that an additional component between DAVE and power amplification in their system sounds better. It means the entire system is sub-optimal.


 
  
 Their system could be totally optimal. It could  just mean they prefer a less detailed sound.


----------



## Jawed

mediahound said:


> It could  just mean they prefer a less detailed sound.



Which is an automatic disqualification on trustworthiness, in my opinion.

Now playing: Sigur Rós - Svefn-G-Englar


----------



## JaZZ

mediahound said:


> jawed said:
> 
> 
> > I'll never trust anyone who reports that an additional component between DAVE and power amplification in their system sounds better. It means the entire system is sub-optimal.
> ...


 
  
 Possible, but unlikely. Why would anyone at a live concert want the sound to be less detailed? I really suspect the introduced colorations (not necessarily noticed as such) serve for masking imperfections in the chain (speaking from own experience, BTW).


----------



## EVOLVIST

But what is "coloration?" Even at the amp we have coloration. The speaker cables or the headphone cables, the same thing. Neutrality is a skyhook. It doesn't exist. It is something that can be strived for, but even if reached we wouldn't know it. 

Other components in the signal path after the DAVE? I think about it. If it's doubtful that we can hear 1% distortion, what does that say for 0.000007% THD+N from the DAVE going into a preamp that has 0.0007% distortion? Is it really a bottleneck that much below what we cannot hear? Even going by the specs, most Chord amps align with what's pretty much become a standard at 0.05%. 

But, distortion isn't the whole of it, and I get stuck on those numbers, even though low distortion might have gobs of 3rd order harmonics. The numbers are only a partial path. 

What I grapple with is that short of the DAVE's headphone output, there's nothing out there that seems it won't muddy the waters a bit, if it's an amp, a cable, or whatever. 

What then does that say for running a Blu2 into DAVE then into several different paths that effect the small signals we so desire? Nothing? Everything? I mean, I really don't know.


----------



## drbobbybones

evolvist said:


> But what is "coloration?" Even at the amp we have coloration. The speaker cables or the headphone cables, the same thing. Neutrality is a skyhook. It doesn't exist. It is something that can be strived for, but even if reached we wouldn't know it.
> 
> Other components in the signal path after the DAVE? I think about it. If it's doubtful that we can hear 1% distortion, what does that say for 0.000007% THD+N from the DAVE going into a preamp that has 0.0007% distortion? Is it really a bottleneck that much below what we cannot hear? Even going by the specs, most Chord amps align with what's pretty much become a standard at 0.05%.
> 
> ...




I couldn't agree more with this. Neutral is a myth. Go to a paint store sometime and see how many shades of white there are. Same with amplifiers, DACs, headphones, cables... etc. 

And sometimes I just like the warm sound of tubes. Something about the process of warming them up and seeing them flow is part of the fun as well. I guess that makes me "untrustworthy"


----------



## JaZZ

drbobbybones said:


> evolvist said:
> 
> 
> > But what is "coloration?" Even at the amp we have coloration. The speaker cables or the headphone cables, the same thing. Neutrality is a skyhook. It doesn't exist. It is something that can be strived for, but even if reached we wouldn't know it.
> ...


 
  
 «Neutral is a myth»: If you mean that absolute neutrality in music reproduction is unachievable, then you're right. If you mean it isn't a worthwile ideal, you're wrong IMO. Even if the colorations may not be in the way of subjectively perceived musicality, they always come at the price of reduced transparency, particularly in the case of electronics components (you don't have to care for the ridiculously small distortion numbers, it suffices that every amp has its tonal fingerprint, hence the audibility is out of question). And «tube sound» is just another means for masking tonal flaws in the playback chain – I guess you'd never have the wish to make a live event sound tubey. So the really appropriate approach is to care for the flaws instead of masking them. And to take note of them in the first place.
  
 That said, if you like tube sound, more power to you. It's just that you don't know what you miss until you go the puristic route systematically.


----------



## Triode User

jazz said:


> «Neutral is a myth»: If you mean that absolute neutrality in music reproduction is unachievable, then you're right. If you mean it isn't a worthwile ideal, you're wrong IMO. Even if the colorations may not be in the way of subjectively perceived musicality, they always come at the price of reduced transparency, particularly in the case of electronics components (you don't have to care for the ridiculously small distortion numbers, it suffices that every amp has its tonal fingerprint, hence the audibility is out of question). And «tube sound» is just another means for masking tonal flaws in the playback chain – I guess you'd never have the wish to make a live event sound tubey. So the really appropriate approach is to care for the flaws instead of masking them. And to take note of them in the first place.
> 
> That said, if you like tube sound, more power to you. It's just that you don't know what you miss until you go the puristic route systematically.


 
 The tube sound is a myth.
  
 «I guess you'd never have the wish to make a live event sound tubey»  - Well actually many amplified live events are 'tubey' because tube amps continue to be the preferred method of amplification for many musicians. But they don't sound 'tubey' to you because your idea of tubey (ie soft, 'warm' and less incisive) is a myth. Tube amps are not soft etc unless they have been 'voiced' to sound that way. Modern good tube amps are fast, high on detail and very realistic. They absolutely thrash many ss amps in that respect.


----------



## JaZZ

triode user said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > «Neutral is a myth»: If you mean that absolute neutrality in music reproduction is unachievable, then you're right. If you mean it isn't a worthwile ideal, you're wrong IMO. Even if the colorations may not be in the way of subjectively perceived musicality, they always come at the price of reduced transparency, particularly in the case of electronics components (you don't have to care for the ridiculously small distortion numbers, it suffices that every amp has its tonal fingerprint, hence the audibility is out of question). And «tube sound» is just another means for masking tonal flaws in the playback chain – I guess you'd never have the wish to make a live event sound tubey. So the really appropriate approach is to care for the flaws instead of masking them. And to take note of them in the first place.
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, I was just referring to _drbobbyjones' _statement that he likes «tube sound». It's not that all tube amps sound the same, but there's certainly a characteristic difference to solid-state gear, although not uniformly pronounced. BTW, I don't belong to those who think tube amps are generally less honest than solid-state amps. And BTW (2), I had acoustic musical instruments in mind when I was talking of a live event.


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## astrostar59

jazz said:


> The tube sound is a myth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Totally agree. I think it a hang over from the parents / grandparents 1950's gramophone which had a very rolled off treble response and a single driver more suited to midrange and bass response. The design of those old tube radios and amplifiers was typically way under spec power supplies, muddy and slow coupling capacitors and poor current delivery and control. Basically warm as hell.
  
 It is a fact a decent tube ran to spec can have a fantastically wide frequency response, well beyond the 20K limit of human hearing and into 100k in some cases. And with transformers on the output a tube based design can have superb control and drive. And IMO can also have fantastic transparency AND smooth delivery. Remember solid state amplification are switching devices, and that can generate noise. That is generally why running them in high bias as Class A makes them sound better, and more 'tube like'. For example I used to run 300B SET mono blocks, but now use a solid state Plinius SA-103 which runs Class A and sounds 'ruby' But in that case I read tuby as transparent AND super smooth treble response.
  
 So yeah, the idea tubes are buzzy and noisy, rolled off devices is actually a relic from audio history. Well that is as long as the amp is well design, as in anything.


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## dguitarnut

jawed said:


> I'll never trust anyone who reports that an additional component between DAVE and power amplification in their system sounds better. It means the entire system is sub-optimal.
> 
> Some manufacturers of hi-fi deliberately engineer faults into their power amplifiers so that their pre-amps improve the perceived performance.
> 
> ...




Put me in the untrustworthy category, and throw in my dealer. We both have not heard any Dac with volume control built in sound better without a Preamp in between at least with speaker systems.
Larry


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## astrostar59

> Put me in the untrustworthy category, and throw in my dealer. We both have not heard any Dac with volume control built in sound better without a Preamp in between at least with speaker systems.
> Larry


 
 It can work, in some cases extremely well.. Example Lampizator Golden Gate running DHTs and with high output and analogue volume pot. Ask on the Lampi WBF threads.
  
 Also it works on my Audio Note DAC 5 with a passive then to my power amplifier. My DAC has the same line stage and the Audio Note M6 pre-amplifier, just has a digital board added basically.
 It is about the integrity of the line stage in the DAC, the amount of current and how low the output impedance is at the DAC. It really needs to be 500K ohms or less. Im my case it is 10 ohms as it has output transformers. Also you need a good passive, shortish interconnects, and NOT use volume at the server as digital volume is notoriously poor.
  
 So, never say never......
  
 I used to use an Audio Note M3 pre-amplifier (5K) but I get better SQ direct, more speed and transparency, deep bass, soundstage width and depth. A pre-amplifier is generally 'fixing' the impedance mismatch and creating more gain, everything else it is doing is worse than direct. If you have no impedance mismatch and enough gain / current, it can sound better direct IMO.
  
 But 90% of DAC won't work for those very reasons.


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## kennyb123

jawed said:


> I'll never trust anyone who reports that an additional component between DAVE and power amplification in their system sounds better. It means the entire system is sub-optimal.
> 
> Some manufacturers of hi-fi deliberately engineer faults into their power amplifiers so that their pre-amps improve the perceived performance.
> 
> ...




[sarcasm mode on]

And, my gosh, can you believe there are people who go one step further and have the temerity to actually use the DAVE to drive transducers! The most colored components in our systems are our speakers and headphones - and yet there are people who buy a DAVE just to have a suboptimal experience of listening through these things? I can only guess these people who pollute the DAVE this way would hate listening to live performances too.

[/sarcasm mode off]

Measurements of the HD 800S here: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800S.pdf

I think it would be really hard to find a modern preamp that does this much harm to the signal.


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## jlbrach

evolvist said:


> But what is "coloration?" Even at the amp we have coloration. The speaker cables or the headphone cables, the same thing. Neutrality is a skyhook. It doesn't exist. It is something that can be strived for, but even if reached we wouldn't know it.
> 
> Other components in the signal path after the DAVE? I think about it. If it's doubtful that we can hear 1% distortion, what does that say for 0.000007% THD+N from the DAVE going into a preamp that has 0.0007% distortion? Is it really a bottleneck that much below what we cannot hear? Even going by the specs, most Chord amps align with what's pretty much become a standard at 0.05%.
> 
> ...


 
 I think in general the fewer interconnects the better....I use my Dave straight out of the headphone jack for this very reason.....I will do the same when I receive my Blu 2 to go along with it...the fewer compromises the better IMHO...an amp is necessary when using loudspeakers,at least power hungry loudspeakers....the path straight out of the Dave into my HP seems to me to be the purest......is that necessarily best for everyone?of course not but for me if i am going spend all this money on a Dave and a Blu 2 i want to hear it as transparently as possible....thats just me though!


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## Articnoise

kennyb123 said:


> [sarcasm mode on]
> 
> And, my gosh, can you believe there are people who go one step further and have the temerity to actually use the DAVE to drive transducers! The most colored components in our systems are our speakers and headphones - and yet there are people who buy a DAVE just to have a suboptimal experience of listening through these things? I can only guess these people who pollute the DAVE this way would hate listening to live performances too.
> 
> ...


 
  

 A headphone and a DAC/amp have different kinds of distortion and colorations. With that said yes a SOTA preamp will probably contribute the least of all gear in most setups.


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## JaZZ

articnoise said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Exactly! The HD 800's curved frequency curve can easily be equalized – many users do, and even Sennheiser themselves approach doing so with the «S» variant –, but the colorations of electronics components consisting of harmonic distortion and other components can't be removed from the signal. Having the DAVE drive high-efficiency speakers is a splendid idea in my book, ideally combined with an active subwoofer – for people who can live without excessive loudness levels. At least until Chord's digital class A amp is available, which promises to sound like a wire with gain according to Rob.


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## kennyb123

articnoise said:


> With that said yes a SOTA preamp will probably contribute the least of all gear in most setups.


 
  
 No, the preamp need not be SOTA to contribute the less coloration than the transducers in our systems.  
  
 I just think folks should be mindful of the plank in their own eye (use of headphones or speakers that are far more colored than just about every high-end preamp) than with the speck that may be in someone else's eye (their use of a high-end preamp or amp after the DAVE).


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## drbobbybones

jazz said:


> Yeah, I was just referring to _drbobbyjones' _statement that he likes «tube sound». It's not that all tube amps sound the same, but there's certainly a characteristic difference to solid-state gear, although not uniformly pronounced. BTW, I don't belong to those who think tube amps are generally less honest than solid-state amps. And BTW (2), I had acoustic musical instruments in mind when I was talking of a live event.


 


jazz said:


> That said, if you like tube sound, more power to you. It's just that you don't know what you miss until you go the puristic route systematically.


 
  
 It's drbobbyBONES, thank you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 My chain is as "pure" or as "impure" as I choose it to be.  I sometimes run the HD800 or the Eikons straight out of the DAVE, but I prefer the HD800 out of the WA22, fed from the DAVE.  I just think it sounds better TO ME, especially with my current tube setup in the WA22.  I also sometimes EQ my HD800s to make them more "neutral", sometimes through the DAVE, and sometimes through the WA22.  My point is, I have heard what you call "pure" and it doesn't sound as good to me as when I add a little "salt" to the dish.  But, let's agree to agree that we hear and enjoy audio differently


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## JaZZ

drbobbybones said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I was just referring to _drbobbyjones' _statement that he likes «tube sound». It's not that all tube amps sound the same, but there's certainly a characteristic difference to solid-state gear, although not uniformly pronounced. BTW, I don't belong to those who think tube amps are generally less honest than solid-state amps. And BTW (2), I had acoustic musical instruments in mind when I was talking of a live event.
> ...


 
  
 Sorry for the misspelling you! And I hope you haven't interpreted my previous post as a criticism on your listening habits. I can live with them. I'm just curious why some people need a sound (colorations) from their setup and others don't. And particularly about one point: If your sound transducers and your source electronics were 100% perfect, would you still feel the need to switch a tube amp into the chain? And if you attend a classical concert, do you ever feel the need to make the sound somewhat «tubier»?


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## kennyb123

jazz said:


> Exactly! The HD 800's curved frequency curve can easily be equalized – many users do, and even Sennheiser themselves approach doing so with the «S» variant –, but the colorations of electronics components consisting of harmonic distortion and other components can't be removed from the signal.


 

 Equalizing a signal is the path of purity while passing the signal through a high-end preamp or amp is the pursuit of coloration?  Makes perfect sense.
  
 How does equalization correct colorations caused by phase issues?  I would think there might be the potential to make things worse in that area by applying EQ.  I could be wrong.
  
 I can see issues introduced in both cases (EQ vs adding a preamp).  Neither side should be mocking the other by saying that "it seems you like the sound of coloration".  None of us are hearing uncolored sound through our gear.   Most of us are just trying our best just to arrive at something we enjoy within the practical constraints we are under.


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## drbobbybones

jazz said:


> Sorry for the misspelling you! And I hope you haven't interpreted my previous post as a criticism on your listening habits. I can live with them. I'm just curious why some people need a sound (colorations) from their setup and others don't. And particularly about one point: If your sound transducers and your source electronics were 100% perfect, would you still feel the need to switch a tube amp into the chain? And if you attend a classical concert, do you ever feel the need to make the sound somewhat «tubier»?




I'm not necessarily looking for colorations per se. I actually think sometimes tubes make music seem more lifelike. 

With your classical concert analogy--I can tell you that seeing a classical performance in the Philadelphia Academy of Music sounds entirely different than seeing the same concert at the Hollywood Bowl. And both are lifelike and real, so to speak. 

The same with tubes. My perception of reality depends on a host of factors, with tube amplification being only one part of that. As mentioned before, I hear far more difference by changing my end transducer (speaker, headphone) than I do by choosing a tube amp or not. I'm shooting for transparency as well, tubes or not. To me, it's just a different flavor of transparent.


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## JaZZ

kennyb123 said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  


> Equalizing a signal is the path of purity while passing the signal through a high-end preamp or amp is the pursuit of coloration?


 
  
 Exactly, yes. Although Rob has his reservations in view of small-signal integrity (based on his experience with ultra-low-level noise modulation), he absolutely advocates equalizing, too, instead of electronics colorations. Equalizing doesn't introduce any sort of harmonic or intermodulation distortion (save for cases of clipping, which should be taken care of).
  


> How does equalization correct colorations caused by phase issues? I would think there might be the potential to make things worse in that area by applying EQ.


 
  
 Equalizing causes phase distortion – that's a fact. If you have a linear signal and distort its amplitude response, the phase response gets distorted accordingly. But there's something only few people are aware of: The same applies to sound transducers. A distorted amplitude response goes hand in hand with a distorted phase response. Hence equalizing a nonlinear amplitude response to flat means linearizing the phase response as well. So equalizing has a double merit which is largely underestimated around here. Of course equalizing carelessly makes things worse in both repects. That's why you can't say: «I've tried equalizing and still clearly prefer the HD 800 with a beefy tube amp.» It takes a lot of time and patience to do it right. And most notably: perfectly linearizing a sound transducer is an unrealistic dream. However, you can get quite far.
  


> I can see issues introduced in both cases (EQ vs adding a preamp). Neither side should be mocking the other by saying that "it seems you like the sound of coloration". None of us are hearing uncolored sound through our gear. Most of us are just trying our best just to arrive at something we enjoy within the practical constraints we are under.


 
  
 Of course so far all of us have to content ourself with a colored sound. But there are solid argument against certain configurations if you want as little coloration as possible, and a preamp (instead of a wire without gain) is definitely a relic of the vinyl era and a guarantee to not reach this goal. The sound may be pleasing to the ears of its owner nonetheless, but it's not as accurate and neutral as it gets. Maybe it corrects for some tonal-balance issues within the chain or manages to make the sound more forgiving to other issues (e.g. within the recordings), but that's it.


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## EVOLVIST

jazz said:


> Exactly, yes. Although Rob has its reservations in view of small-signal integrity (based on his experience with ultra-low-level noise modulation), he absolutely advocates equalizing, too, instead of electronics colorations. Equalizing doesn't introduce any sort of harmonic or intermodulation distortion (save for cases of clipping, which should be taken care of).
> 
> 
> Equalizing causes phase distortion – that's a fact. If you have a linear signal and distort its amplitude response, the phase response gets distorted accordingly. But there's something only few people are aware of: The same applies to sound transducers. A distorted amplitude response goes hand in hand with a distorted phase response. Hence equalizing a nonlinear amplitude response to flat means linearizing the phase response as well. So equalizing has a double merit which is largely underestimated around here. Of course equalizing carelessly makes things worse in both repects. That's why you can't say: «I've tried equalizing and still clearly prefer the HD 800 with a beefy tube amp.» It takes a lot of time and patience to do it right. And most notably: perfectly linearizing a sound transducer is an unrealistic dream. However, you can get quite far.


 
  
 Sooooooo....How about digital room correction, with products like the Lyngdorf RP-1, the McIntosh MEN220, or some of the older Accuphase products? We're talking about EQ, but also correcting phase problems, reflections, and sundry other issues that jack with room problems that effect loudspeaker listening. The Lyngdorf/McIntosh solution is actually based upon your own speakers, so it's pretty exact from my understanding.
  
 However, just like your own EQ (which I presume happens in the digital domain) how would a room correction module effect the signal coming from the DAVE? I mean, what's your best guess, given that I'm only regurgitating what I've read and know little about EQ.


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## JaZZ

evolvist said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly, yes. Although Rob has its reservations in view of small-signal integrity (based on his experience with ultra-low-level noise modulation), he absolutely advocates equalizing, too, instead of electronics colorations. Equalizing doesn't introduce any sort of harmonic or intermodulation distortion (save for cases of clipping, which should be taken care of).
> ...


 
  
 Hi Nick. I must confess that I have no experience with digital room correction at all. The closest thing to it was helping my son calibrating his multichannel speaker setup, which was actually done automatically by the receiver.
  
 Certainly the phase-autocorrection scenario doesn't apply in a multi-source system like above. With multi-source I'm also addressing the reflecting walls. The problem with digital room correction is that it inevitably corrupts the frequency response of the direct sound from the speakers. It's as if you would alter the timbre of a violin playing in your reflective room just to get a flatter over-all response (thus including reflected sound). So I'm really helpless with respect to digital room correction and highly skeptical in terms of its functionality, but it nevertheless seems indispenible for a decent speaker sound – if you haven't built your house around your music reproduction system. So all I can say is that I'm glad I'm exclusively into headphones these days (not entirely voluntarily, though) – and this from a former fanatic speaker builder!


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## 7ryder

evolvist said:


> Sooooooo....How about digital room correction, with products like the Lyngdorf RP-1, the McIntosh MEN220, or some of the older Accuphase products? We're talking about EQ, but also correcting phase problems, reflections, and sundry other issues that jack with room problems that effect loudspeaker listening. The Lyngdorf/McIntosh solution is actually based upon your own speakers, so it's pretty exact from my understanding.
> 
> However, just like your own EQ (which I presume happens in the digital domain) how would a room correction module effect the signal coming from the DAVE? I mean, what's your best guess, given that I'm only regurgitating what I've read and know little about EQ.


 
 If anyone is concerned about putting something between their DAVE and amp and reducing transparency/neutrality/etc., the last thing you want to do is insert any products like the ones mentioned above which do DSP.

 All of these have their own A/D/A conversion in them and, regardless on your view of preamps, etc., I think we can all agree that we don't want more analog-digital-analog conversion after DAVE sends its analog signal to an amp or preamp.
  
 The solution to digital room correction now is doing it in your computer before it goes to DAVE. Software from DIRAC, for example, can do what you're looking to do as can Roon, to a lesser extent.


----------



## kennyb123

jazz said:


> Of course so far all of us have to content ourself with a colored sound. But there are solid argument against certain configurations if you want as little coloration as possible, and a preamp (instead of a wire without gain) is definitely a relic of the vinyl era and a guarantee to not reach this goal. The sound may be pleasing to the ears of its owner nonetheless, but it's not as accurate and neutral as it gets. Maybe it corrects for some tonal-balance issues within the chain or manages to make the sound more forgiving to other issues (e.g. within the recordings), but that's it.




Fair point. My objection is simply with how the argument is often made. I find the insinuation that a person must "prefer their sound colored" to be insulting. That is one possible reason but there are certainly others. Maybe the preamp or amp make up for a deficiency elsewhere and is serving the same end as your application of EQ. Like you, their goal may be a flatter frequency curve - but unlike you, they've chosen a different path to get there. There are some here who are too quick to pounce and play the "you must prefer coloration" card and I don't see how that futhers the investigation into the reason why the listener feels that way. We should start by assuming the best motives in others - especially given how badly these colored these transducers can be. Maybe the person who truly aims to flatten out the frequency curve would appreciate being guided to a better solution and it's just that they don't yet understand that there are better ways to get there than placing other components after the DAVE. But to lead off with "you like what that amp does because you prefer coloration" won't be very helpful. Instead maybe lead off with "by proper application of EQ you can make up for the recessed mids you hear with your headphones and EQ could likely achieve better transparency than you are getting with that tube amp. You should give it a try and report back."

There are certainly many listeners who aren't in pursuit of transparency. They usually know this about themselves and will freely admit that they are simply out to achieve a sound of their liking. Those who aren't as self-aware should be allowed to arrive at that conclusion on their own. 

I use a preamp as I have two sources and am willing to accept a loss in transparency for that convenience. When the digital I'm able to afford gets me to the point where I'm able to dump that other source, I will likely dump the preamp.


----------



## Jawed

kennyb123 said:


> [sarcasm mode on][/sarcasm mode off]



In your rush to be sarcastic, you entirely missed the point.

As an example, I've spent a few hours listening to a couple of Cavalli headphone amps (one solid state, one tube) running off a Hugo. The experience was marred by an excess of lushness, which totally gets in the way of the music. This is an example of supposedly good gear that is anything but transparent. You don't need the world's best headphones to be able to hear that the amp's character is getting in the way.

When a component hides the differences amongst pieces of music because of its overt character, that's when I would trash it. So when I read people choosing gear that is overtly characterful, it indicates their choices won't be sympathetic to mine and so they can be safely ignored.

For me, changing from TT to DAVE is a great demonstration that transparency, and nothing but transparency, is the right upgrade to make.

Back to what I was saying originally: It's impossible to connect a hi-fi component between two other components transparently. Merely adding a pair of RCA connectors and a very short interconnect made from unobtanium will sound worse. So a power amp that needs a pre-amp to "sound right" tells you that the design of both is a fail: it's forcing you to insert an RCA interconnect and the unobtanium interconnect isn't even available to buy, so solely on that basis it's a fail, let alone all the shenanigans that the pre-amp is performing in its own right. Lotsa profit though... 

People with analogue sources generally don't have the freedom to explore pre-amp-less systems. So their perspective is going to be skewed.

Now playing: Bernstein - NYPO - Mahler 2nd Symphony


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## EVOLVIST

7ryder said:


> The solution to digital room correction now is doing it in your computer before it goes to DAVE. Software from DIRAC, for example, can do what you're looking to do as can Roon, to a lesser extent.




Wait. Hold up. Did I say I was going after such a thing? I posted an extreme case of EQ in some of those devices. That is all.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Well, I guess that settles it. Not everybody is after as much transparency as they can get. I find that fan-*******-tastic! 

Every since I got into the whole transparency/neutral trip, it's been blowing my friggin' mind. Before, I used to just enjoy the music, but now I ask questions I never thought of asking and my obsessiveness for knowledge has sucked the joy from it. Yeah, that's my fault. 

I go to other audiophile's cribs and listen to their systems, and yes, some of them sound like turds, but then there are a few, which cost a fraction of mine, where I'm like, "Man, that just sounds musical!" Implementation, implementation, implementation. 

I should make that my new mantra. 

The thing is, in this quest for transparency, I get the DAVE and it's out of sight! But then like any drug, you want to get higher. Only "higher" with the DAVE is that whatever you do, don't futz too much with the sound or you'll ruin the tech. I get that. Still, it's a bit like saying, "Here, I'll give you 250 million dollars; I'll make you a millionaire right now, but if I give this to you, you can never leave your house, get on the internet, or have contact with anybody, save for those who bring you food and clothing." So sure, you eat like a king, and your clothes are swank, yet your stuck right there. 

Not only that, but I'm still waiting on the god damn jetpack they promised me when I was a kid.


----------



## EVOLVIST

/kill thread


----------



## drbobbybones

evolvist said:


> /kill thread


 





  
 I agree with your points.  We may all be after different things, or we may all be after the same thing (transparency), but we all define that thing differently, and some of us are more open minded than others on how to get there.  I don't mind adding things to the chain to see if it sounds better or more transparent for me.  Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't.  As a physician and scientist, that's part of the fun for me--the experimentation.  And if you all think my opinion isn't worth listening to about this because of that, I can live with that--hope you guys can too!


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## rkt31

there is coloration added in the chain in every step like mic, preamp, recorder , player ( dac ) , preamp, amp and speakers. but for an audiophile and in Hi Fi fidelity terms the most important stage is the player ( dac) it should be as transparent as possible that's what hi fidelity all about. rest may be one's choice , adding tube warmth to the transparent source or adding high power solid state amp to drive big speakers etc etc. that's where Dave fits so well as most transparent source ever. the more transparent is source , more headroom it has to reproduce every scenario. like in movies there are varying scenarios , conversation in a closed room, car chases and blasts in open , ''compressed bass heavy music playing in a club'' it should be able reproduce all like it was intended .


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## Christer

drbobbybones said:


> I'm not necessarily looking for colorations per se. I actually think sometimes tubes make music seem more lifelike.
> 
> With your classical concert analogy--I can tell you that seeing a classical performance in the Philadelphia Academy of Music sounds entirely different than seeing the same concert at the Hollywood Bowl. And both are lifelike and real, so to speak.
> 
> The same with tubes. My perception of reality depends on a host of factors, with tube amplification being only one part of that. As mentioned before, I hear far more difference by changing my end transducer (speaker, headphone) than I do by choosing a tube amp or not. I'm shooting for transparency as well, tubes or not. To me, it's just a different flavor of transparent.


 

  Imho you are making some interesting points compared to those  here who ,almost religiously, argue either for or against tubes here.
 I also think that the end result is what really counts.
 With some recordings the "possibly re-instated" second and third harmonics with tubes into the equation, can  deliver a sound that actually comes closer to how things sounded live, where one has the opportunity to compare how different systems deliver something you can reference to first hand. 
 We are as you say  really dealing with "a host of factors" here.
 I have to say that to me via headphones directly, DAVE so far comes the closest to how  some of my reference recordings sounded live and at sessions.
 But I have quite a few other  recordings in my collection where tubes are actually needed to make them more enjoyable.
 But I doubt that I would want tonight's performance of Richard Strauss's Ein Heldenleben  here in KL coloured  any other way than the conductor /orchestra deliver it in the  acoustically excellent concert hall here.
 LIVE is for me the one and only real reference, of course accounting for differences in the  acoustics of different halls. And even where you sit, or in my case as a photographer sometimes,where I stand in the hall.
 The sound on stage is always very different from what you will hear midstalls or  from the balcony for example.
 As you say "a host of factors"  to take into account.
 By the way,most well made recordings of classical music at least, tend to deliver a final listener balance close to what the conductor would hear or a slightly higher than front  stalls to sometimes a mid-stalls balance.
 The main pair of  mics are often hung above the conductor and spot mics out among the players as needed.
 And the not so well done ones will take you on a tour of the orchestra with almost a mic "up the nose" of very player and mixed down at the mixing desk for final production.
 With such recordings one minute you are in the woodwind section while they carry the tune and the next minute you are thrown back among the basses.
 To me simply mic'd Blumlein or DECCA tree above the conductor generally yields the most pleasing and realistic results for standard stereo listening via speakers and binaural in basically  the same positions for ultimate headphone enjoyment.
 And since like me Rob himself  sometimes hails  many of  the old magic classic 60's DECCA recordings one might add that they were ALL made with tube equipment.
 Food for thought indeed.
 Cheers Christer


----------



## drbobbybones

christer said:


> Imho you are making some interesting points compared to those  here who ,almost religiously, argue either for or against tubes here.
> I also think that the end result is what really counts.
> With some recordings the "possibly re-instated" second and third harmonics with tubes into the equation, can  deliver a sound that actually comes closer to how things sounded live, where one has the opportunity to compare how different systems deliver something you can reference to first hand.
> We are as you say  really dealing with "a host of factors" here.
> ...


 

 YES!  You totally get what I'm trying to say.  For me, tubes are not an either or phenomenon--they are sometimes better for what I'm listening to or my mood.  In certain cases, like with the HD800's, I can get more transparency by going through a tube amplifier fed from the DAVE than going straight through the DAVE using an EQ to flatten out the wonky midrange dip and the treble spike.


----------



## rkt31

0 ( perfect mean position) exist in theory only. similarly there can't be perfect neutral sound . it will either be slightly warm or slightly cold even if it is on extremely lower side. warmer ( less bright ) sound is the preferred choice over the colder . that's why recording engineer tend to color the sound on warmer side by using tube preamps etc. err too much on warm side in recording chain , you lose details and thus transparency and vice versa. so the role of extremely transparent source ( dac ) becomes much important. the source should not further add color to the sound.


----------



## dmance

I am pretty close (perhaps days) from ditching my loudspeakers and adopting headphones in my pursuit of the transparency you all are talking about. I agree with various posters..nothing beats DAC direct to phones. My jaw drops at the dynamics, I smile regularly when I pick up undiscovered details and though I cant share the amazing fidelity with others...Who cares..I have the sweet spot anyhow.


----------



## EVOLVIST

dmance said:


> I am pretty close (perhaps days) from ditching my loudspeakers and adopting headphones in my pursuit of the transparency you all are talking about. I agree with various posters..nothing beats DAC direct to phones. My jaw drops at the dynamics, I smile regularly when I pick up undiscovered details and though I cant share the amazing fidelity with others...Who cares..I have the sweet spot anyhow.




You'll probably want some Focal Utopias with that. Let me know. I have a dealer who will do you know wrong with pretty much any cans you want. He's amazing, actually.


----------



## 7ryder

evolvist said:


> Wait. Hold up. Did I say I was going after such a thing? I posted an extreme case of EQ in some of those devices. That is all.


 
 My apologies, I didn't mean to imply that you were going to do this.
  
 Since I explored this several years ago, I just wanted to call this out for everyone that is considering EQ/room correction options.
  
 For those of us with speaker systems, the room is probably the most critical thing in the mix and usually the most overlooked by hobbyists. Everyone is looking to change out speakers, DAC, amp, cables, etc. to try to improve the sound instead of investing money where it could potentially make the biggest difference - the room. 
  
 Granted, that $10K DAVE in the rack is a lot sexier than $10K spent on room treatments, but without addressing the room, you won't hear your system's full potential. 
  
 Which is why when we moved into our house 10+ years ago, I retrofitted and had an existing room fixed first - terrible slap echo, bad peaks and nulls, etc. And even though the room is still open to a hallway, you can hear the noise level drop when you walk into the space - it is much improved.
  
 And if you find a firm that knows what they are doing, you can have built-in treatments made that largely meet WAF criteria -- there are no standing bass traps, etc in my room, everything is behind acoustically transparent cloth.  

 And now that Dirac Live and Roon can do room correction in the PC before it sends the music file to my DAVE, I'm excited to explore my options and fine tune things further.
  
 If you can't do acoustical treatments in your room (regardless of reasons), room correction software that works on your computer prior to sending the file to the DAC can clean up a lot of the issues and allow you to hear more of what your system can do. But room correction software alone isn't going to help bring down the ambient noise level in your room nor can it correct, for example, bass nulls. Still, it is better than nothing.


----------



## EVOLVIST

7ryder said:


> And now that Dirac Live and Roon can do room correction in the PC before it sends the music file to my DAVE, I'm excited to explore my options and fine tune things further.
> 
> If you can't do acoustical treatments in your room (regardless of reasons), room correction software that works on your computer prior to sending the file to the DAC can clean up a lot of the issues and allow you to hear more of what your system can do. But room correction software alone isn't going to help bring down the ambient noise level in your room nor can it correct, for example, bass nulls. Still, it is better than nothing.




Hey, no worries. I think I came off as being a little too gruff, anyway. My bad. 

Yeah, I've got my speakers set about 8ft apart and my sitting position is 8ft from there, in a triangle. But I've got a wall right behind me. The wife will let me treat the wall, but it will have to be something, I don't know, aesthetically pleasing for her. I don't know if I can possibly fit in bass traps, though. 

I've been checking out some of the options and solutions presented on the Roon forums. It's seems that the best solution is Accourate with Roon. Without actually doing it, however, it seems like quite a task. No pain/no gain, as they say, right? 

I knew going into speakers I would run across such problems. Now it's just a matter of working them out. I've heard from people who describe their room as much worse than mine, so I hope for good results.


----------



## 7ryder

evolvist said:


> Hey, no worries. I think I came off as being a little too gruff, anyway. My bad.
> 
> Yeah, I've got my speakers set about 8ft apart and my sitting position is 8ft from there, in a triangle. But I've got a wall right behind me. The wife will let me treat the wall, but it will have to be something, I don't know, aesthetically pleasing for her. I don't know if I can possibly fit in bass traps, though.
> 
> ...


 
 No worries, we're good.
  
 Sounds like your set-up is about like mine - listening position at least - your triangle and mine are exactly the same and our sitting position (small couch) is about 4" from the wall.
  
 In our case it isn't even a full wall because the room is kind of L shape on one side (behind and to my left as I'm facing the speakers) which leads to French doors to another room AND on the right hand side there are stairs going up to the next floor so partially open stairwell - the definitely a room with problems...for the audiophile anyway! Behind that wall is storage under the stairs and a closet where most of my audio equipment is (amp is in the listening room w/ the speakers).
  
 We solved for that part of the room by building a bass trap into the wall and then covering the wall with sound absorbing materials and then fabric. we also had to cover the wall at the end of the L (around the French doors) with the same materials. And get this, the treatments work so well, we don't have to use floor coverings on the slate floor that the previous owner put in...good thing, because it is radiant heat. 
  
 As I said earlier, it a science, but it is also an art knowing exactly how much insulation to use, etc., but the results are worth it. Frankly, the way the room was before, it would have been unlistenable.


----------



## BunnyNamedCraig

evolvist said:


> You'll probably want some Focal Utopias with that. Let me know. I have a dealer who will do you know wrong with pretty much any cans you want. He's amazing, actually.


 
 Awe Evolvist you shouldn't have! JK were not the dealer in question here ha. BUT it is nice to hear that you have someone that you like to go to and have that relationship with  ect... That's part of the process of buying that some customers have not experienced yet. Enjoy your DAVE and the tunes!
  
 Also, yes- the Utopias are very transparent and dynamic... Good recommendation.


----------



## EVOLVIST

mtmecraig said:


> Awe Evolvist you shouldn't have! JK were not the dealer in question here ha. BUT it is nice to hear that you have someone that you like to go to and have that relationship with  ect... That's part of the process of buying that some customers have not experienced yet. Enjoy your DAVE and the tunes!
> 
> Also, yes- the Utopias are very transparent and dynamic... Good recommendation.




We're all loyal to somebody or some thing. I say Star Wars. You say Star Trek. 

I say that the quest for transparency is a mug's game.


----------



## JaZZ

evolvist said:


> mtmecraig said:
> 
> 
> > Awe Evolvist you shouldn't have! JK were not the dealer in question here ha. BUT it is nice to hear that you have someone that you like to go to and have that relationship with  ect... That's part of the process of buying that some customers have not experienced yet. Enjoy your DAVE and the tunes!
> ...


 
  
 That really does transparency wrong. If anything, it's the quest for constant improvements which is to blame. Transparency is a source of joy, thanks to the effortlessness it provides to listening to music.
  
 Neither Star Wars (fairy tails on children's level in a hi-tech package) nor Star Trek (repeated superficial stereotypes) can seduce me to become a fan. But I'm a big fan of sci-fi books. Coke or Pepsi? I ended up with a fair caffein-free mixture.


----------



## EVOLVIST

jazz said:


> That really does transparency wrong. If anything, it's the quest for constant improvements which is to blame. Transparency is a source of joy, thanks to the effortlessness it provides to listening to music.
> 
> Neither Star Wars (fairy tails on children's level in a hi-tech package) nor Star Trek (repeated superficial stereotypes) can seduce me to become a fan. But I'm a big fan of sci-fi books. Coke or Pepsi? I ended up with a fair caffein-free mixture.




Heh. Well, I'm not going to shortchange "transparency" as a concept. In practice, though, what is transparent to one person might not be the same to another, as we are all on our own quests to reach audio Nirvana. 

I've switched my focus to more Resolving & Musical, as opposed to Transparent and Neutral. It's not that you can't have both, but the former, I believe, are less of concepts than the latter. 

A few days ago, my buddy - the same guy I replicated his speaker choice, in the Andra IIs (his room has been treated; mine has not) - dropped a fully loaded Lampizator Golden Gate into his system. Instead of his wonky Class D amp, I brought over the TToby as the amp of choice. 

Well, versus the DAVE, which I also had on hand, we were very hard pressed to declare a winner with timbre accuracy, timing, instrument separation and speed. However, the Golden Gate was simply more holographic. So much so, that I'm sitting 10ft away from the speakers, and certain passages shocked me when it felt that I could reach out and touch the sound of an instrument. It was like turning on a light bulb in the room. 

I then swapped out his $600 speaker cables for my $100 pair of Blue Jean cables. No difference. None that anybody could detect. 

Yes, with the DAVE in-line it was extraordinary, too, only the massive amount of depth that was there seemed like 2D depth, as if the deep sound was a photo of the instrument, recessed in the sound field, opposed to the actual instrument. 

I'm not saying that the DAVE sounded dead, only that the Golden Gate sounded more musical, for better or for worse, in the grand scheme of things. 

Later we put his Class D amp back in, and it imparted a veil over the Lampi just as it did the DAVE. 

I don't know. This is merely an anecdote. I know that the Chord DAVE is the best DAC on the planet for listening to headphones. Otherwise, now that I've changed focus, I'm not sure what else the DAVE is when it comes to speaker reproduction.

EDIT: to change screw-ups from typing on my phone.


----------



## JaZZ

I did some search for the Lampizator Golden Gate, and although I know nothing about it apart from some component listing and review excerpts, I'm sure that it sounds great. I just had to see the tubes and the fine (silver-centric) components to think: Yes, that has to sound exceptional.
  
 Actually I was going to reply it may have been a case of synergy, with the DAVE as just second best in this configuration, but now I think I understand even your differentiation between «resolving» and «transparent».
  
 I think I would nevertheless prefer the DAVE for my sonic ideals, since I'm more or less done with tubes, as much as I like their characteristic. To my ears the DAVE's most striking strength is its imaging of spatial depth – thanks to the fantastic small-signal resolution. The Golden Gate with its even more pronounced depth (as you say) and an (assumed) liquid-smoothness making it more «musical» and ear-friendlier than even a DAVE would most likely be too much ear-friendliness and spectacularity to my taste. I simply cannot imagine that the DAVE's simplicistic output stage, its groundbreakingly low harmonic distortion and noise modulation figures can be beaten when it comes to accuracy and transparency. So it seems the DAVE is not the best DAC for everyone, although better than most nonetheless.
  
 However, I don't think transparency is the culprit, rather the way to get there: Combined with ultimate accuracy it may (still) be too much unforgivingness to some ears, although to my pair it is absolutely very, very friendly.
  
 (A lot of speculation involved, but I hope you get what I mean.)


----------



## EVOLVIST

Marcel, 

I think you could, and should, prefer the DAVE for headphone listening, because I doubt there is anything that can touch it, or ever will. That ultra-microscopic window into the music that the DAVE provides, even with a few flavors of TOTL cans makes it the best in the business. In fact, I'm not dogging the DAVE at all. 

However, yeah, becoming disillusioned by the concept of transparent/neutral has made me rethink what I want as a listener, sure. Where once I was getting goodebumps by listening to the DAVE with cans, I don't get the same feeling having dropped it into several speaker setups (not including my own, which is a work in progress). 

Granted, every system that I've dropped my DAVE into made the system better. It really did, but not necessarily more musical or engaging, just more... Yeah, transparent. 

I'm also not saying that I'm getting rid of my DAVE, either. At this moment I'm saying that my priorities have changed, some having to do with moving to speakers, some not.


----------



## ray-dude

evolvist said:


> Marcel,
> 
> I think you could, and should, prefer the DAVE for headphone listening, because I doubt there is anything that can touch it, or ever will. That ultra-microscopic window into the music that the DAVE provides, even with a few flavors of TOTL cans makes it the best in the business. In fact, I'm not dogging the DAVE at all.
> 
> ...


 

 DAVE with headphones and CIEMs has been absolutely intoxicating (like a drug).  After a weekend of fiddling, DAVE in my 2 channel setup has taken a step up, but the goosebumps per minute is WAY behind the experience of DAVE + cans.  
  
 Lot more fiddling to do, but I'm grateful to have the reference of my headphones to know what I need to aspire to with my 2 channel setup.  Alas, a LOT easier to optimize headphones than it is to optimize a room/speaker layout
  
 If my theory about being room limited holds true, when I get my Hugo2, the answer may be to take the DAVE to the office (where I'm headphones all the time) and leave the H2 at home in my 2 channel setup (95% 2 channel)
  
 As they say, 1st world problems


----------



## Triode User

evolvist said:


> However, the Golden Gate was simply *more holographic*. So much so, that I'm sitting 10ft away from the speakers, and certain passages shocked me when it *felt that I could reach out and touch the sound of an instrument*.


 
 Is this the effect of the tubes or the DAC implementation though?


----------



## astrostar59

jazz said:


> I did some search for the Lampizator Golden Gate, and although I know nothing about it apart from some component listing and review excerpts, I'm sure that it sounds great. I just had to see the tubes and the fine (silver-centric) components to think: Yes, that has to sound exceptional.
> 
> Actually I was going to reply it may have been a case of synergy, with the DAVE as just second best in this configuration, but now I think I understand even your differentiation between «resolving» and «transparent».
> 
> ...


 

 Good point. IMO once you get to this level of gear and other components in the system, it becomes how they work together. The endless buying and selling of gear by many in this hobby is for this reason I believe. It is not that various DACs or Amps or Speakers are not any good, it is more about how they work *together. *I have had all solid state, then part solid state, then all tubes, then again part solid state. And after 20 years of searching around with some mistakes along the way I am convinced I need one component in the chain with tubes. It may be timbre or warmth, or it may be realism, but it seems to work best that way for me.
  
 The Golden Gate is a chameleon as it can run very different tube types, not just makes. So the character can be changes quite a bit. Also as it runs DHT is can be connected to a power amplifier direct and miss out the pre-amplifier, and with that more transparency and speed, less loss basically. Also it can sound different on PCM or DSD (upsampled PCM to DSD).
  
 I have not heard the DAVE but respect it must be a superb DAC. If I had the DAVE I would run a tube power amp for sure. It would then give me the ability to tweak the signature to fit the rest of my system. I am not talking transparency alone, more timbre. For example, I have heard top Esoteric and dCS DACs in an all solid state system at dealers, and it was very transparent, but sounded awful IMO, way to cold and 'hifi'. This sort of sound impresses me for 15 minutes, but rapidly hits the buffers. I like to test systems by playing it loud, to realistic levels, and often these system fall apart at that point. And in my mind, a top HP system also highlights quite quickly such failings as (for example) the Stax 009s are so transparent and sensitive, it is all there to hear.
  
 So IMO the GG and DAVE are probably equals of different flavours. It is how they fit in the system that makes them either great or truly special.


----------



## JaZZ

Nevertheless, I stick to the notion that a perfect source combined with a perfect amp and perfect speakers (...in perfect acoustics and with perfect recordings...) don't need any artificial euphonization (which not just tube gear is capable of). As little as a live concert (...with acoustic instruments!).


----------



## Crgreen

Frankly, you're better off learning to live with imperfection, Much less disappointing.


----------



## JaZZ

I have certainly learned to live with sonic imperfections during my more than 40 years of dealing with them. The above «analysis» just serves for putting the «need» for tube flavor and the like into perspective. Moreover, once you've learned that there are imperfections that you don't necessarily have to accept, you may gain a new level of sound quality. Since the most striking imperfections reside in the sound transducers, you may have an idea what I'm aiming at.


----------



## astrostar59

jazz said:


> Nevertheless, I stick to the notion that a perfect source combined with a perfect amp and perfect speakers (...in perfect acoustics and with perfect recordings...) don't need any artificial euphonization (which not just tube gear is capable of). As little as a live concert (...with acoustic instruments!).


 

 I get your point. But in real life that never happens. And it is not just about transparency as I tried to say. It is about timbre. I am not convinced a full SS system can cut it with digital front end. Risking a huge angry mob here, but we are supposed to air our opinions for discussion right?
  
 Remember fets are switching devices, so unlike tubes, create their own noise and sound signature. And tubes do some things so well, but not all things. This has an effect, and in a DAC + Amp and all the gain stage in those devices, has more and more effect on the signature of the sound if we use SS or tubes right through. My holy grail is balance the best of both. It for example in a speaker setup, opens up possibilities of more speaker designs for SS as opposed to high efficiency 1 or 2 drive unit designs (huge simplification). 
  
 And I see the ability to tweak, modify or affect the sound, however we shall call that, as a good thing to have. When I didn't have that ability, I used to spent a lot of time and money (and loss of money) on Audiogon.


----------



## JaZZ

astrostar59 said:


> jazz said:
> 
> 
> > Nevertheless, I stick to the notion that a perfect source combined with a perfect amp and perfect speakers (...in perfect acoustics and with perfect recordings...) don't need any artificial euphonization (which not just tube gear is capable of). As little as a live concert (...with acoustic instruments!).
> ...


 
  
 I agree with you, and I'm not saying transistors sound better than tubes. Indeed they have their own way of corrupting the signal. It's just that my now solid-state headphone amps, as imperfect as they are (very clear when I attach them to the DAVE), leave my tube amp in the dust when it comes to accuracy and naturalness – not necessarily in terms of ear-friendliness, though. And this although the Mapletree EAR++ III (with Black Gates) is the best sounding tube amp I've owned (maybe together with the Earmax Pro). Subjectively, from its fun factor, it is absolutely competitive, though. So you see, my experience with tube amps is limited, that's why I won't draw definitive conclusions anyway. I was mainly responding to your statement that you need some tube gear anywhere within the chain, which strongly hints to «tube flavor».


----------



## Crgreen

Since life is imperfect, a bit of colour can make it more bearable - mankind cannot stand too much reality.And I've been to some amplified gigs where a bit of tube warmth would have been welcome. 

The debate between theoretical accuracy and musical engagement has gone on since hi-fi was invented. Ultimately, it's a matter of taste and preferences, so there's can't be a winner.

I'm waiting to hear reports of what the m-scaler does with DAVE before deciding whether to take the plunge.


----------



## EVOLVIST

triode user said:


> Is this the effect of the tubes or the DAC implementation though?




It's difficult to say. My gut tells me a bit if both leads to a whole lot of results. This model had the 101d tube, which I'm not familiar with, and the 300B tubes which I'm a little familiar with. No HP output of course.


----------



## JaZZ

crgreen said:


> Since life is imperfect, a bit of colour can make it more bearable - mankind cannot stand too much reality.And I've been to some amplified gigs where a bit of tube warmth would have been welcome.
> 
> The debate between theoretical accuracy and musical engagement has gone on since hi-fi was invented. Ultimately, it's a matter of taste and preferences, so there's can't be a winner.
> 
> I'm waiting to hear reports of what the m-scaler does with DAVE before deciding whether to take the plunge.


 
  
 I'm not against shaping the sound to one's own liking at all – even do it myself in the form of my personal crossfeed and some other manipulations if need be. However, sacrificing transparency and accuracy by doing so is a sacrilege in my personal book, as it reduces listening pleasure and musicality. So if there are ways to overcome the need for euphonic colorations, I'm all for them. At the same time I wonder why others cheerfully ignore them, without knowing what they miss.


----------



## Crgreen

Sacrilege? Some things in life are sacred, but I'm not sure hi-fi is amongst them.


----------



## adyc

evolvist said:


> Heh. Well, I'm not going to shortchange "transparency" as a concept. In practice, though, what is transparent to one person might not be the same to another, as we are all on our own quests to reach audio Nirvana.
> 
> I've switched my focus to more Resolving & Musical, as opposed to Transparent and Neutral. It's not that you can't have both, but the former, I believe, are less of concepts than the latter.
> 
> ...





Here is my experience. I only listen to speakers and no headphone. I had Lampi GG for a long time. I found the sound is colour and not involving. So I bought DAVE. I had both DACs in my system and compare them in depth. There is simply no competition. DAVE completely KO GG in terms of everything: depth, accuracy, dynamics and most importantly to me musical. DAVE always draws me to the music. GG sound is uninteresting.

I want to stress that this is my experience and maybe it is system synergy. I had many expensive DACs in my system before. These DACs come and go until I found DAVE. My DAC search has stopped. To me, DAVE is the best DAC on the planet. There is nothing come close.

I found that I need long time listening before I can make any judgements. I would say that your favourable experiences on GG maybe due to their colouring. You may draw different conclusions if you listen to GG for a few weeks or more.


----------



## JaZZ

crgreen said:


> Sacrilege? Some things in life are sacred, but I'm not sure hi-fi is amongst them.


 
  
 I added «in my personal book» – for clarification: when it comes to my own music-listening practice. Of course the term is a hyperbole meant to make the statement more striking.
  
 You're being quite a bit nitpicking and lack a sense of humour...


----------



## Crgreen

Of course, I should have realised you were being humererous, It's either that or "I was being ironic". From now on, when you talk about the importance of transparency, I'll know you're not entirely serious and overstate things a bit, but in a funny kind of way.


----------



## JaZZ

crgreen said:


> Of course, I should have realised you were being humererous, It's either that or "I was being ironic". From now on, when you talk about the importance of transparency, I'll know you're not entirely serious and overstate things a bit, but in a funny kind of way.


 
  
 Something's wrong in our communication. You're twisting my words. And I'm sure you know it. So what's it that you actually want to say?


----------



## AnakChan

There seems to be quite a bit of tension going on here that's best taken offine in PM?


----------



## EVOLVIST

anakchan said:


> There seems to be quite a bit of tension going on here that's best taken offine in PM?




Nah, they're only going to fight there, too. 

Jk.


----------



## Silvertone4

evolvist said:


> Nah, they're only going to fight there, too.
> 
> Jk.




Over transparency of all things :rolleyes:

Changing the subject now, am I the only one excited about the upcoming DAVE review in Stereophile? Should be out next month, can't hardly wait


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

The owner of one of the UK's larger Hifi emporiums once said to me "speakers always sound like the room they are in". 

I think transparency is coloured and hidden by room acoustics even more than they are affected by the non linear nature of speaker eq. Using acoustic panels, bass traps etc improves both transparency and imaging and also makes it easier to align and place your speakers correctly because you are not fooled by reflections and corrupted room eq response and bass frequency boom and delay. 

I feel sure that a high proportion of high quality speakers out there will also be firing 'out of phase' or non aligned, simply because most peoples floors are not level and many people can't be bothered to experiment or perhaps they can't tell the difference. There is a myriad of change in the sound that can come from leaning speakers inwards, outward, backwards forwards toed in toed straight etc and if one doesn't mirror the other then the sound is compromised. An easy way of checking phase setup btw is to walk across the front of your speakers about 3-4 feet away and notice the sound as you reach the middle of the two speakers, when left and right stereo sounds join. It helps if it's a more complicated broad spectrum piece of music. If your phase setup is out you will notice a phase distortion more easily this way. It is easy to fall into the trap of actually setting up your speakers 'out of phase' where bass problems are evident in your room because the less bass warmth allows for greater transparency. It's a bad fix. What you really need is warmth, punch and control and that bass and reflection problem can only be fixed with acoustic treatment in the room.

Top quality speaker companies rarely issue a product which isn't musical but it is very easy to set them up in a non optimum, non musical way. The sweet spot with some 2 way and particularly 3 way speakers is incredibly finely Tuned. In some cases we are talking just a 90 degree turn adjustment on a 64th inch threaded spike for absolute optimum firing. Over the last 30 months I have been adjusting, moving, realigning 3 sets of 3 way speakers on a daily basis just to understand the phenomenon of musicality in relation to placement and alignment further. On one set I wore the threads of the spikes so much, I needed to replace them! 

I am still learning.......but the musical benefits of persevering with speaker alignment and placement are hugely rewarding musically and emotionally. A common theme is people saying "it makes me feel like crying" That's good!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

The other thing to bear in mind with speaker setup in relation to your preference of sound is that you can set them up to roll off a perception of bass weight, (I say perception because the bass is there all along) for instance leaning the speakers inward will hide bass but whilst this may deliver more detail the leaner bass will distort the natural 'true' sounds of instruments. Acoustic guitar for instance has a level of bass that on balance will tell you the instrument was played with new smooth strings. The extra bass is not hiding anything more than a live instrument would. It's more like matching two pieces of a jigsaw. It completes the picture. You can roll off bass to a point that acoustic guitar sounds like it is strung with old strings. They are nolonger smooth at all and sound more like a Dobra Guitar which is made with a metal sound box and has a dry clangy string sound. It'll give you more detail this way but it is far from natural. It's one of my tests of hifi setups. - 'New strings or old?'


----------



## rkt31

speakers are never designed for straight firing even if they are , they will never sound balanced straight firing due to the interaction with walls. slight toe in reduces the interaction with walls. toe in too much, the sound becomes less separated and depth perception reduces. so there is always a best toe in between these two extremes. that best toe in is independent of sweet spot ie theoretically sweet spot become infinite just like in a live event, where ever you sit , you get the depth and distance information as per your position. best toe in can't avoid room interactions all together but room interactions and sound interaction between the two speakers are least with the best toe in.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

rkt31 said:


> speakers are never designed for straight firing even if they are , they will never sound balanced straight firing due to the interaction with walls. slight toe in reduces the interaction with walls. toe in too much, the sound becomes less separated and depth perception reduces. so there is always a best toe in between these two extremes. that best toe in is independent of sweet spot ie theoretically sweet spot become infinite just like in a live event, where ever you sit , you get the depth and distance information as per your position. best toe in can't avoid room interactions all together but room interactions and sound interaction between the two speakers are least with the best toe in.




Kef speakers are designed for straight ahead firing and for the most part they work well that way provided the room is suitably free from wall and ceiling reflections but I understand your point rkt31. I have a pair of Kef Reference 205/2 speakers and they are very musical and very flat eq. Sonus Faber on the other hand are designed to fire straight at the listener because Fabers are never flat on the eq and therefore the eq imbalance is best minimised by firing at the listener or close to them. I have had 4 different models of SF and all were very musical indeed. On balance I think the design preference of the actual designer for toeing in or not can be trusted in my experience, provided the room is suitably controlled of course. Kef and SF usually have test charts to prove their point in this respect.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Btw guys I do not listen via cans but I am intrigued by the new Focal Utopia headphones.

Do they produce a frequency chart for these headphones do you know?


----------



## JaZZ

Inner Fidelity has measured it.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

jazz said:


> Inner Fidelity has measured it.




Thanks Jazz. Wow that top end fall off is startling. Is that normal for top line over ear hifi cans? Perhaps something to do with the close proximity?


----------



## bigfatpaulie

daveredref-iii said:


> Thanks Jazz. Wow that top end fall off is startling. Is that normal for top line over ear hifi cans? Perhaps something to do with the close proximity?


 
  
 It is, yes.
  
 Headphones are very different to speakers so the response curves are very difference because (at least my understanding) the sound is coming at your ear in a very different manner than with speakers.  IEMS are different still as they completely circumvent the outer ear.


----------



## drbobbybones

daveredref-iii said:


> Thanks Jazz. Wow that top end fall off is startling. Is that normal for top line over ear hifi cans? Perhaps something to do with the close proximity?


 

 I think that has to do more with measuring artifact.  In practice, the treble on the Utopia is more than adequate.  In fact, some think the Utopia is a bit treble heavy.  I don't, but others have commented that way.
  
 I think the Utopia is the king of resolution though.  I've never heard a head phone resolve the way this one does--super detailed but very natural as well.


----------



## JaZZ

If you look at other headphones at Inner Fidelity, you'll notice that the treble roll-off is «normal», so to speak. Effectively it's the result of a crude «compensation» function, which actually should lead to a flatter response if designed more realistically.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I guessed it would be something like that. Thanks for the feedback guys. When I used to record I used the industry standard Beyer DT100 for desk monitoring and musician monitoring. They sounded sh#t (very dead) but they had industry leading isolation properties. If you could get a captivating mix out of them it would pretty much fly well on most systems.


----------



## GryphonGuy

drbobbybones said:


> I think that has to do more with measuring artifact.  In practice, the treble on the Utopia is more than adequate.  In fact, some think the Utopia is a bit treble heavy.  I don't, but others have commented that way.
> 
> I think the Utopia is the king of resolution though.  I've never heard a head phone resolve the way this one does--super detailed but very natural as well.


 

 ​I played the Yim Hok-Man album "Master of Chinese Percussion" last night. The first track of the many drums is totally awesome. Love it. The 2nd track is called "Duck's Quarrel" and is largely Chinese cymbals and other metallic percussive instruments. It was so real (and irritating just like in real life) that instead of walking away like I do at Chinese New Year parades, I changed tracks after about 1 minute. I marvelled at the DAVE+Utopia accuracy but cringed at the sound those instruments truly make. Track 3 was wooden percussion instruments and the closely microphoned recording sounded like the guy (presumably) was banging the wooden stick about 150mm (6 inches) from my ear and I suitably winced at that too just like I would in real life. So DAVE+Utopia is reality and for this ripped CD album, just a little too life-like for my comfortable and relaxing listening. But love the apparent accuracy of DAVE+Utopia.


----------



## ecwl

Great. The album is available on Tidal. Will have a listen when I get home!


----------



## ecwl

Wow, if there ever is an audiophile album. Had to turn down the volume to not annoy my neighbor. Also not sure where the line between music and cacophony instrumental sound blurs. But growing up in Hong Kong, the instruments were darn realistic coming off the DAVE. But being Chinese did not prevent me from finding the album a little too cacophonic for me. It's very interesting but not my kind of music.


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## BunnyNamedCraig

I'm excited to hear this album now after what guys are saying abojt it. Might be able to pull some test tracks off it for when I A/B headphones. Not to mention I love drums!


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## strangecargo

Hahaha. "Listen to this! It's sounds awful!"


----------



## BunnyNamedCraig

I got to listening to the "Master of Chinese percussion" and i like it! ha BUT some of the stick thwacks are pretty sharp on the Utopia. Listen with caution gang. It does seem to be excellently recorded, and may I say it around this group..... Transparent? lol


----------



## lovethatsound

Just got my focal utopia,I've been looking forward to these headphones for a while,will they be better than my hd800?only time will tell.


----------



## ubs28

daveredref-iii said:


> Thanks Jazz. Wow that top end fall off is startling. Is that normal for top line over ear hifi cans? Perhaps something to do with the close proximity?




The Focal Utopia has better treble extension than the HD 800 if that says something.

For me the treble is extremely good. Especially with classical music.


----------



## rkt31

somewhere in this thread I remember someone planning to use Dave with benchmark ahb2 . any impressions ?


----------



## ray-dude

rkt31 said:


> somewhere in this thread I remember someone planning to use Dave with benchmark ahb2 . any impressions ?


 

 I'm about 6 hours into auditioning an AHB2 with DAVE and B&W 802d3's (vs Classe CT-2300 amp + Oppo HA-1)
  
 I'm still jumping back and forth between various configs, but obviously A/B testing is challenging when you have to swap cables around between takes.  I have only recently swapped out my Oppo HA-1 for a DAVE, so there is that untangling I'm doing at the same time.
  
 Initial impressions.  AHB2 has no issues driving the 802's either 2 channel or bridged (I had to cover my ears in both modes to get to clipping).  Initially, something sounded "off", but slowly started to sound right after a couple hours (similar to the experience I had when I first got my Mojo).
  
 Music was sounding a bit more capped out than I was expecting (dynamics didn't have the punch I was hoping for).  Based on some posts in this thread re the current the DAVE can drive single ended vs balanced, I switched from balanced out on the DAVE to single ended out, and seemed to recover some of what seemed to be missing.
  
 The current hypothesis I'm testing is that the strict 100W regulation of the AHB2 may be capping out some of the more aggressive transients (vs the Classe).  Switching back and forth between running the AHB2 in stereo (single speaker only) and bridged mono (SPL matched, etc), on some tracks I'm hearing a clear difference, but I haven't been able to isolate what may be causing it.  I suspect it may be related to the output regulation combined with the particular load dynamics of my 802d3's.  As always, it is about amp/speaker synergy with the specific music you're playing, so your mileage will vary.
  
 Switching back to the Classe, the level of additional detail and speed and noise floor of the AHB2 were all apparent with the DAVE, but not as much with the Oppo HA-1 (if I hadn't heard them with the DAVE, I wouldn't have noticed them with the Oppo).  The Classe seems to have a more musical flavor to it, but the AHB2 seems more neutral and transparent.
  
 Lot more listening and auditioning to do to sharpen up my impressions and make a decision.  As of now, my bias is leaning towards running the DAVE single ended directly into a pair of bridged AHB2s
  
 Benchmark has a very generous 30 day trial program, and shipping of the beast is only $20-30 (shockingly small and light amp).  If you have any curiousity about the amp, I highly recommend giving it an extensive audition yourself and sharing what you hear in your system.


----------



## rkt31

I already own it and feed it by hugo in low gain mode . I run kef r300 with foam bungs and a sub .


----------



## rkt31

@ray-dude, thanks for the detailed reply.


----------



## EVOLVIST

I have an AHB2, as well. At first I thought I wasn't getting enough headroom out of the amp, but then I compared it to a 400 wpc amp, and yeah, plenty of headroom. This is going single-ended out of the DAVE. 

It really is quite "transparent," as far as I can tell. Granted, I'm still working on room treatment with my speakers, yet I don't think that's holding me back from gauging the response I'm getting from them. In fact, I think I would redline the DAVE's preamp before I would get anywhere close to clipping the AHB2.

There's still one amp I want to pit it against before I'm done, but as of right now the AHB2 seems to be a keeper, unless the end results of my room treatment reveals something I don't like. The idea is to let the DAC sing. Okay, it seems to do that quite well.


----------



## ecwl

My dealer recently brought in a Krell Duo 300 to pair with his Chord DAVE and Wilson Sasha 2 speakers for demo. We also A/B'd the Krell amp against the Sanders Magtech Amp. That said, it's possible the Krell is still burning in. I'm not hearing any significant difference in transparency between the two amplifiers. The Magtech sometimes sound a little more (artificially?) detailed, but also drier and harsher, so I wonder if that's subtle noise floor modulation from the amp or just some low level high frequency/RF noise. But Krell sometimes creates an artificially wider or warmer soundstage which I was able to verify by listening to the same pieces of music back home using Focal Utopia headphones. This maybe due to Krell's 3rd harmonic distortion? Not sure. With complex symphonic works, I do feel like I'm hearing a little less through the Krell. It was hard to compare my dealer's system with mine, other than different setup and speakers, my dealer used some extra power conditioning products, like Nordost Qv2 and Qx4 which I didn't find great synergy with my computer system/Magtech amp.
  
 A friend recently bought a Bryston 4B3 and he has a Chord 2Qute and Marantz AV8801 processor that he is using as a preamp with the 2Qute. I was quite shocked by the transparency of the Bryston 4B3. I presume Bryston is not relying on harmonic distortions to sweeten up or to warm up the sound as their previous amplifiers never did that. 
  
 If I have the time, and Rob Watts weren't designing a digital amplifier, and I didn't commit my money to Blu Mk 2 already, I probably would look into Bryston 4B3 and Benchmark AHB2 amplifiers as an amplifier upgrade. But one only has so many resources... Like I was listening to DAVE playing Janacek's From the House of the Dead conducted by Sir Charles Mackerras while typing this.


----------



## ray-dude

ecwl said:


> If I have the time, and Rob Watts weren't designing a digital amplifier, and I didn't commit my money to Blu Mk 2 already, I probably would look into Bryston 4B3 and Benchmark AHB2 amplifiers as an amplifier upgrade. But one only has so many resources... Like I was listening to DAVE playing Janacek's From the House of the Dead conducted by Sir Charles Mackerras while typing this.


 
  
 100% conjecture, but the only reason I'm looking at the AHB2 is I'm assuming Chord digital amps beefy enough for my setup (100W+) are at least 3-4 years away.  I would love to get a hint that I'm wrong (hint hint  so the amp upgrade money could get flipped into a Blu2 or Davina


----------



## EVOLVIST

Here is another amp that I would give strong consideration to pairing with the DAVE. SPL makes the best headphone amp I have ever tried, out of many, many. The same 120v technology is in this baby. The numbers don't look quite as pretty as some of the other mentioned here, but the technology is what makes it so hot. I have no idea how I would audition one of these, though. If it's anything like the headphone amp, the soundstage and headroom on this thing should go on for days. $3,499 I think.
  
https://spl.info/en/products/professional-fidelity-pro-fi/performer-s800/overview.html


----------



## Edric Li

evolvist said:


> Here is another amp that I would give strong consideration to pairing with the DAVE. SPL makes the best headphone amp I have ever tried, out of many, many. The same 120v technology is in this baby. The numbers don't look quite as pretty as some of the other mentioned here, but the technology is what makes it so hot. I have no idea how I would audition one of these, though. If it's anything like the headphone amp, the soundstage and headroom on this thing should go on for days. $3,499 I think.
> 
> https://spl.info/en/products/professional-fidelity-pro-fi/performer-s800/overview.html


 
  
 Can you comment on the headphone amp quality in the Dave, compared to SPL's headphone amps you have come across?


----------



## EVOLVIST

edric li said:


> Can you comment on the headphone amp quality in the Dave, compared to SPL's headphone amps you have come across?


 
  
 Yes, the DAVE's headphone output blows everything else away. Period.
  
 The SPL Auditor, on the other hand, when used in conjunction with any other DAC elevated the sound considerably. I found it to be the definition of "neutral" and "transparent" while really letting the music breath in an effortless way. The Auditor never sounded squeezed or boxed in as many headphones amps sound. It came from the pro-audio world, and is used for microscopic views in the mastering stage when a different vantage from speakers is needed. Bernie Grundman uses one. Zero fatigue.
  
 In sum, the DAVE's headphone output is very musical. The SPL Auditor is very analytical, yet spacious, but don't confuse that with being etched. It's will only sound etched if your digital source is etched.
  
 I don't know why the DAVE and the Auditor were not simpatico, though. Then again I've heard two other headphones amps with the DAVE that I didn't think sounded very good either. Go figure.


----------



## jelt2359

evolvist said:


> Yes, the DAVE's headphone output blows everything else away. Period.
> 
> The SPL Auditor, on the other hand, when used in conjunction with any other DAC elevated the sound considerably. I found it to be the definition of "neutral" and "transparent" while really letting the music breath in an effortless way. The Auditor never sounded squeezed or boxed in as many headphones amps sound. It came from the pro-audio world, and is used for microscopic views in the mastering stage when a different vantage from speakers is needed. Bernie Grundman uses one. Zero fatigue.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Meanwhile, here in Singapore, four First Watt F7's are on their way over, in addition to the one I already have. Another guy just contacted me with interest to get one and pair it with his DAVE to drive his HE1000.
  
 Here's what a guy from Pass Labs said, when I asked him to compare it with their other amps:
  
*This is only my take, The F7 is a carnival joy ride, spatially it images like nothing I've heard. The imaging abilites of the F7 are a double edged sword. With honest acoustic recordings it's charming. With recordings that have been manipulated in studio for exaggerated sound-stage it can be too much of a good thing. *


----------



## astrostar59

evolvist said:


> I have an AHB2, as well. At first I thought I wasn't getting enough headroom out of the amp, but then I compared it to a 400 wpc amp, and yeah, plenty of headroom. This is going single-ended out of the DAVE.
> 
> It really is quite "transparent," as far as I can tell. Granted, I'm still working on room treatment with my speakers, yet I don't think that's holding me back from gauging the response I'm getting from them. In fact, I think I would redline the DAVE's preamp before I would get anywhere close to clipping the AHB2.
> 
> There's still one amp I want to pit it against before I'm done, but as of right now the AHB2 seems to be a keeper, unless the end results of my room treatment reveals something I don't like. The idea is to let the DAC sing. Okay, it seems to do that quite well.


 

 Perceived loudness and drive, dynamic range etc can be hugely influenced by the efficiency of the speakers and the size of room there are in. I would guess the Benchmark could sound very different with horn speakers v panels v 86db v 93db speakers. An example of dynamics v power output, we can look at a typical tube amplifier with 20-30 watt output, yet it can sound very loud and dynamic, partly as it pure class A. Then we can have (in some cases) a 4300 watt solid state that can sound thin and flat, a bit lifeless regardless of specified power. This is a huge generalisation and not as applicable as much with (the best) modern solid state designs, but you get my drift.
  
 Also with solid state amplifiers I find the amount of bias into Class A affects the sound v dynamics as well. Most modern amplifiers run AB and some into Class A up to 10% of their output, then switching into AB. Class A is superb for it's sound but generates huge amounts of excess heat and is fairly impractical in many room settings, not to mention wasted energy!
  
 So, in my view is the efficiency of the speaker is probably as or more important than power output at the speaker taps. And the ease of drive of a speaker comes in as well, 2 or 3 way designs generally being easier to drive as regards impedance curve and current demands.
  
 I went through quite a few tube power amplifiers, SETs, PP, 300B and EL34s, and had some success but also some problems. I now run a solids state power amplifier and feel I am within 90% of the best I got from tube amplifiers but without the problems (and cost of expensive power tubes).
  
 Sorry, if this has gone a bit off topic, but a subject I am passionate about.


----------



## seeteeyou

Now Blu Mk. 2 should be shipping and owners of DAVE will receive their orders in the near future, I'd like to ask a mighty interesting question.
  
 Let's say we're connecting a quality recorder to DAVE's line output, are we still able to "capture and retain the magic" of M-Scaler (at least partially?) when we're playing those recorded *.WAV files with Hugo 2 etc. later by any chance?
  
 Alternatively, it would be still pretty cool to get half of 1,000,000 taps by recording one coaxial output of Blu Mk. 2 and then play those recorded files with 100% digital systems such as connecting Audio-Technica ATH-DSR9BT to a smartphone.


----------



## Crgreen

As to your first point, obviously what comes out of DAVE's line outputs into a recording device is the same as goes to a preamp or power amp: so the sound quality will be a reflection of the m-scaler and DAVE, and the full benefit of a million taps.


----------



## seeteeyou

Thank you very much, now the $64,000 question should be how much would other non-Chord DACs (i.e. based on DAC-chips from AKM or ESS etc.) benefit from playing those recorded files.
  
 If there were a significant jump in the SQ department, stuff like MQA might become even less appealing when we could count on some kinda "Redbook upsamling service" after a few audiophile buddies have chipped in to share the costs of Blu Mk. 2 + DAVE + recorder combo.
  
 Granted each recording must be done in real time and upsampled files will be huge, thankfully hard drives are getting so cheap these days while a decent NAS wouldn't cost that much anyways. It's REALLY nice to be able to keep a copy of Redbook that's actually superior to the ripped version. Rare music in Redbook format might never get a remaster but at least there's a viable alternative to obtain the DIY version of a much better flavor.
  
 Am I totally crazy to think about stuff like this or what?


----------



## Rob Watts

seeteeyou said:


> Thank you very much, now the $64,000 question should be how much would other non-Chord DACs (i.e. based on DAC-chips from AKM or ESS etc.) benefit from playing those recorded files.
> 
> If there were a significant jump in the SQ department, stuff like MQA might become even less appealing when we could count on some kinda "Redbook upsamling service" after a few audiophile buddies have chipped in to share the costs of Blu Mk. 2 + DAVE + recorder combo.
> 
> ...


 
 Commercial ADC's are not very good or transparent; hence why Davina's ADC.
  
 Davina will also allow redbook conversion to M scaled files; I plan to M scale some of my music to play back on planes with Hugo 2. Of course, its pure digital to digital transfer, so in effect I will be listening to M scaled music without carrying around an M scaler. Perhaps we may see music being re-released as 705/768 kHz M scaled...


----------



## dmance

rob watts said:


> ... Perhaps we may see music being re-released as 705/768 kHz M scaled...


 
 Rob,
 So the standard FLAC (...etc) file formats will properly contain those high res files?  And Hugo2 will play them back directly?   
 Dan


----------



## Crgreen

seeteeyou said:


> Thank you very much, now the $64,000 question should be how much would other non-Chord DACs (i.e. based on DAC-chips from AKM or ESS etc.) benefit from playing those recorded files.
> 
> If there were a significant jump in the SQ department, stuff like MQA might become even less appealing when we could count on some kinda "Redbook upsamling service" after a few audiophile buddies have chipped in to share the costs of Blu Mk. 2 + DAVE + recorder combo.
> 
> ...




I think the "problem" point in the chain would be the recording device, specifically: the ability of the analogue to digital converter to retain the benefits of what's coming out of DAVE's analogue outputs. You'd be going from a digital file to analogue and then back to a dgital file. There's plenty of potential to lose any benefits. The resulting file might conceivably be worse than the original. Frankly, I'm not sure it's a very practical idea.


----------



## Rob Watts

dmance said:


> rob watts said:
> 
> 
> > ... Perhaps we may see music being re-released as 705/768 kHz M scaled...
> ...


 
 FLAC does not support 705/768 kHz so it would have to be a WAV file. Zipping should give good compression though on a 768 kHz WAV.


----------



## seeteeyou

rob watts said:


> Davina will also allow redbook conversion to M scaled files; I plan to M scale some of my music to play back on planes with Hugo 2. Of course, its pure digital to digital transfer, so in effect I will be listening to M scaled music without carrying around an M scaler. Perhaps we may see music being re-released as 705/768 kHz M scaled...


 
  
 Thanks Rob for the prompt reply.
  
 Is it feasible to design a product in the future with *both* USB input(s) and outputs since we could feed M scaler as well as record that M scaled goodness with the same computer?
  
 Supposedly jitters still matter even though we're going digital, maybe we could find a decent motherboard and then replace the clocks with something like this?
  
 https://www.highend-audiopc.com/shop/en/accessories/sotm-sclk-ex
  
 It's gotta be exciting time once we realize the quality of 705/768 kHz M scaled music. They're already selling tons and tons of "Hi-Res" downloads in Japan after they've upscaled Redbook with K2HD Mastering
  
 http://www.jvcmusic.co.jp/k2technology/e/k2hd/
 http://victorstudio.jp/flair/e/k2hd/k2hd.html
  
 Apparently we could use Google Translate to learn more about quite a few complaints
  
 http://infernoayase.net/archives/650
 http://www.phileweb.com/interview/article/201401/24/218.html
  
 Of course the "holy grail" would be recording master tapes with Davina and that's pretty much the best bet if those tapes were still available.


----------



## Rob Watts

Davina is bi-directional on the USB; it can receive and transmit data at the same time.


----------



## icebear

> ...Perhaps we may see music being re-released as 705/768 kHz M scaled...


 
  
 ...yeah great, yet another new music format
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  


seeteeyou said:


> ....
> It's gotta be exciting time once we realize the quality of 705/768 kHz M scaled music. They're already selling tons and tons of "Hi-Res" downloads in Japan after they've upscaled Redbook with* K2HD Mastering*


 
  
 There you go: it involves a different *MASTERING*.
  
 And the yes, the few K2HD CD's (indeed red book format !) that I own, do sound fantastic. But the K2HD editions generally start with excellent quality recordings to begin with. What has not been captured in the recording can not be interpolated with what ever magic scaler, no matter how many values are being fed through a custom FPGA. If it hasn't been captured during the recording session, it can not be calculated "out of thin air" eh ... silicone, of course. K2HD just shows how good the red book format can sound if all boundaries are pushed.
  
 Why is it that classic recordings from the early 60's still sound impressive today and give you the impression that the orchestra is actually moving the air in that hall? Not because they had some kind of magic scaler but because the sound engineer worked with conductor and orchestra and had an idea how to capture their sound in a live session w/o too much interference afterwards. And it was done into 2 or 3 track machines not spliced together or nowadays calculated from 48 tracks of close miked intruments.
  
 The basis for a captivating sound reproduction is 95% at the recording and not in a chip or rezz'd up format.


----------



## Crgreen

[quote name="icebear" url="/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/8340#post_.

Why is it that classic recordings from the early 60's still sound impressive today and give you the impression that the orchestra is actually moving the air in that hall? Not because they had some kind of magic scaler but because the sound engineer worked with conductor and orchestra and had an idea how to capture their sound in a live session w/o too much interference afterwards. And it was done into 2 or 3 track machines not spliced together or nowadays calculated from 48 tracks of close miked intruments.

The basis for a captivating sound reproduction is 95% at the recording and not in a chip or rezz'd up format.
[/quote]

I'm not sure I'd put the percentage that high but by and large, I agree. What the DAVE has shown me is how much better so many recordings are than I'd ever realised. Although the 60s was something of a golden age for classical recordings, many fine recordings were made in the digital age. Try the Decca set of the Montreal Symphony Orchestra under Dutoit recorded in the sympathetic acoustic of St Eustache. The balance was achieved by the conductor and orchestra rather than the engineers, but they caught the sound beautifully.


----------



## rkt31

@icebear, almost all DACs employ upsampling and filtering . not all upsampling algorithm are same. some do it better and hence those DACs sound better. Davina/ m scalar will do it still better and other dacs won't require their own upsampling inside. so the idea is not exactly to create any missing information by interpolation ( upsampling) but to allow better filtering within the original available frequency band like all DACs do inside but davina/m scalar will do it with much better accuracy .


----------



## icebear

The particular recording that gave me the impressions that they literally move the air, not just that the air transport the music was this one:




 And the format is the lowly red book CD.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 People complain about digital music being harsh. How does a piano sound if your are right next to it bending over to be about 8 to 10 inches above the strings and the artist is playing forte? At that distance it will sound harsh but often that's where the mics are positioned.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 So does it matter in this case how much the resolution is? No, not really, the mistake was the position of the microphone inside the piano. Once the harm is done, it can't sound beautiful just because of some up-rez. DAC or different playback format.


----------



## rkt31

no dac can correct the recording inaccuracies as it is not supposed to do that. DAC ( source ) is supposed to reproduce the original recording as faithfully as possible. accurate upsampling here plays a big role. there is a website which displays the plots of various upsampling algorithm . there are some extremely poor plots with lot of aliases and some are extremely clean with pitch black background indicating no aliases. so a good upscalar like Davina will not introduce the information which was not already there but get you lot closer to the original performance.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

What is currently the best solution to play Internet-streamed music on Dave? The app that I use (Moov) has lossless only on either iOS or Android, not on computer. In this case, is AK380 the best solution for a transport that runs the streaming app? Other than that, I find that most flagship Android phones are now USB-C, and I am now aware of any high end USB-C to USB-A on the market. iPhone is out of the question (although I have the latest red iPhone 7+) because the Camera Kit will become the very obvious weakest link.
  
 Cheers,
 Louis Armstrong


----------



## LouisArmstrong

-double post-


----------



## ecwl

I brought my iPad Air 2, my Apple camera connection kit, the cheapest USB cable I could find and connected to my Chord DAVE at the last local Head-Fi meet. Worked like a charm. I let people stream off my Tidal account with the iOS Tidal app.


----------



## Rob Watts

icebear said:


> > ...Perhaps we may see music being re-released as 705/768 kHz M scaled...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I was thinking of replying to this explaining why I think technically you are wrong.
  
 But here is an easier reply: Have you actually heard what an M scaler does to the sound?


----------



## theveterans

>


 
  
 Fundamentally, digital audio is quantized so whatever mastering has been done (K2HD or low-fi) is still stored as digital audio. With my limited knowledge in electronics, the M scaler should be closer to the correct representation of the analog signal (from the source) therefore sounding better. If a DAC chip has fewer computations in processing (e.g oversampling, filtering, noise shaping, etc) the original samples, it wouldn't sound truer to the source. So if you play the K2HD disc from an iPod, it wouldn't sound as good as it does with the DAVE. Thus, M scaler should represent the sound closer to the source and is beneficial to all audio formats.


----------



## seeteeyou

louisarmstrong said:


> What is currently the best solution to play Internet-streamed music on Dave? The app that I use (Moov) has lossless only on either iOS or Android, not on computer.


 
  
 That depends on the definition of "best" since we've got limited options for getting MOOV Hi-Fi on Android devices.
  
 Sony NW-ZX2 runs on Android 4.1.2 while MOOV Hi-Fi should require 4.1 or above. Add that BCR-NWH10 dock and you could connect that to DAVE with Skogrand Beethoven if you want
  
 https://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?id=521546984012
 https://www.amazon.co.jp/ソニー-SONY-BCR-NWH10-ウォークマン純正クレードル/dp/B00S94R5RK
  

  
 Finally add tX-USBultra between DAVE and BCR-NWH10 for a much better SQ
  
 https://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/portfolio-item/tx-usbultra/
 https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31470-sotm-tx-usbultra-impressions/
  
  
 If you weren't satisfied with that, maybe talk to May Park and find out if they're able to replace the clocks on any audiophile Android devices
  
 https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/27617-sotm-sms-200-unveiled-at-munich-hi-end/?page=28#comment-649011
  
 There's a thread started by romaz and he already tried TONS of megabuck music servers and endpoints, so far he's a big fan of sCLK-EX
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/787020/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box
  
 FYI - here are some links to sCLK-EX
  
 http://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/portfolio-item/sclk-ex/
 http://www.review33.com/news/news.php?news_id=20170104214918
 https://www.highend-audiopc.com/shop/en/accessories/sotm-sclk-ex
  
  
 If they weren't able to replace the clocks on any audiophile Android devices, maybe simply ask them to replace the clocks on a Micro-ATX motherboard and then you could turn Windows 10 / optimized Server 2016 into Chromecast receiver with Google Cast for Education
  
 https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/google-cast-for-education/bnmgbcehmiinmmlmepibeeflglhbhlea
 http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/how-to-turn-your-pc-into-a-chromecast-receiver/
  
 Get MOOV Hi-Fi up and running on a flagship Android phone and then stream that to Windows 10 / optimized Server 2016 via Chromecast.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

Looks like using the Dave is a little bit more complicated than I thought... This whole USB chain isolation / dejitter thing is totally another world that I haven't explored. Was I naive to think that using the Dave is just to hook up my Macbook Pro with a Wireworld Starlight Platinum USB cable and then play songs with Amarra?


----------



## seeteeyou

Given how revealing DAVE really is, it should be well worth the investment to investigate the improvements when a better source component is introduced.
  
 Basically the best clocks out there are DuCULoN and sCLK-EX
  
 https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31572-superclocks/#comment-654721
  
  
 And then we've gotta power that with a clean source and the output impedance should be very low, Paul Hynes Design should be one of the best and then we've got some options with ultracapacitor banks
  
 http://www.vinnierossi.com/mini/
 https://uptoneaudio.com/products/ultracap-lps-1
  
  
 If you're just looking for a plain and simple audiophile OTG cable since that might be good enough for a flagship Android phone, maybe you could talk to PhilW and find out if Vertere Acoustics were able to do something
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/u/145703/philw
  
 This is the flagship USB cable called Pulse-HB with an optional micro USB config, sometimes they could be willing to make something different such as OTG cables
  
 https://www.audiosanctuary.co.uk/vertere-pulse-hb-double-usb-cable.html
 https://vertereacoustics.com/product/digital-cable/pulse-hb-usb-digital-cable/
  
 You could read some impressions of Pulse-HB below
  
 http://www.hiendy.com/hififorum/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=92003
 http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?16660-Vertere-HB-Series-usb-cable
 http://audioexotics.vanillaforums.com/discussion/12150/vertere-the-best-turntable-tonearm-cable-maker-of-uk/p6
 http://audioexotics.vanillaforums.com/discussion/13004/skogrand-and-usb-cables
  
 Simply ask PhilW about the possibilities of making an OTG version that's looking just like this one here
  
 https://www.startech.com/eu/Cables/usb-c/usb-2-0-c-b-cable~USB2CB1M


----------



## AndrewOld

rob watts said:


> Commercial ADC's are not very good or transparent; hence why Davina's ADC.
> 
> Davina will also allow redbook conversion to M scaled files; I plan to M scale some of my music to play back on planes with Hugo 2. Of course, its pure digital to digital transfer, so in effect I will be listening to M scaled music without carrying around an M scaler. Perhaps we may see music being re-released as 705/768 kHz M scaled...


 

 Would it be possible to make some M scaled material available as WAV files so that DAVE/Hugo owners can make useful comparisons?


----------



## Rob Watts

andrewold said:


> rob watts said:
> 
> 
> > Commercial ADC's are not very good or transparent; hence why Davina's ADC.
> ...


 
 It will be technically possible to do - and I would love to do it. But I don't know what the legal situation regarding clips and copyright. I guess I would need permission from the copyright owner.


----------



## JaZZ

rob watts said:


> andrewold said:
> 
> 
> > rob watts said:
> ...


 
  
 It would also be interesting for the copyright owner if you just make excerpts available – sort of promotion. So I really think it is doable, and I would like to get an idea of the M-Scaler.


----------



## AndrewOld

rob watts said:


> It will be technically possible to do - and I would love to do it. But I don't know what the legal situation regarding clips and copyright. I guess I would need permission from the copyright owner.




Perhaps if you asked someone who makes high quality recordings and has a download store - Hyperion records would be my choice. Then folk could buy the redbook from them, thus satisfying copyright issues, and get the MScaled version either from Chord or again from the same place. I think most of us would be happy to pay. Hyperion make some absolutely outstanding orchestral, choral, and chamber music recordings which they sell as CDs, or redbook downloads or hires downloads for very reasonable prices.

It would be the ultimate comparison! CD vs MScaled CD vs redbook download vs MScaled redbook vs Hires Studio Master vs MScaled Studio master.


----------



## twsmith

evolvist said:


> Yes, the DAVE's headphone output blows everything else away. Period.


 
  
 Does it really?  So, just out of curiosity, which is better  -- a TOTL headphone (e.g. HD800/S, Focal Utopia, etc) driven unbalanced direct from the Chord DAVE headphone amp, or DAVE xlr output to Headamp GS-X Mk2 driving the same headphones in balanced configuration?    Or does it matter?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

rob watts said:


> It will be technically possible to do - and I would love to do it. But I don't know what the legal situation regarding clips and copyright. I guess I would need permission from the copyright owner.




I feel sure Rob that Chord Electronics' friends at Metropolis Mastering would both have the authority and ability to produce such a comparison disc/file in under an hour, if they had a mind to.


----------



## ray-dude

twsmith said:


> Does it really?  So, just out of curiosity, which is better  -- a TOTL headphone (e.g. HD800/S, Focal Utopia, etc) driven unbalanced direct from the Chord DAVE headphone amp, or DAVE xlr output to Headamp GS-X Mk2 driving the same headphones in balanced configuration?    Or does it matter?


 

 The headphones you listed would both be fine with single ended output of DAVE: more than sufficient power to drive them single ended, with fewer components between the analog output and your headphones.   Based on previous posts in this thread, my understanding is that the balanced output has an additional amplification stage, and is capable of driving 10x less current than the single ended output.
  
 I haven't directly A/B tested my HD800 with single ended vs balanced output to an amp (I no longer have a headphone amp), but I have heard an improvement driving a 2 channel amp single ended vs balanced.  For the DAVE, since it is (essentially) natively single ended, if you can get away with it, best to stick with that.


----------



## lovemov

Is 400HZ power OK with Dave?

I recently received a power regenerator, which outputs 110V 60HZ regular, as well as 120HZ and 400HZ @ 110V.
The 110V60HZ works surprisingly well, the improvement is huge. I'd like to try 120HZ and 400HZ but wondering if this is OK with Dave? I have tried CD player, which power supply is transformer, works great. But for switching power like Dave is using, I have no idea and dare not to try until if someone tells me this is OK @400HZ...
Thanks a lot.


----------



## Triode User (Apr 28, 2017)

seeteeyou said:


> Given how revealing DAVE really is, it should be well worth the investment to investigate the improvements when a better source component is introduced.
> 
> Basically the best clocks out there are DuCULoN and sCLK-EX
> 
> ...



Robb Watts has said that he has found that different sources make little difference to Dave and with the implication that it is not necessary to spend money on the array of gear mention above with the Dave. Likewise I have noticed that he eschews exotic USB cables etc. This is exactly my experience with Dave. Obviously if it makes you feel better then by all means have a go with an exotic cable but the chances are that a well made $20 cable will do the job just as well with the Dave, if not better. I also suggest that people take a big reality check and closely assess the foo content for a USB cable where a 100 hour burn in is suggested.


----------



## raypin

Mm...subscrib8ng again bec of forum update.


----------



## BunnyNamedCraig

raypin said:


> Mm...subscrib8ng again bec of forum update.


Are you using your phone to get on headfi or using desktop? Either way your subscribed threads are still there. It was just more difficult for me to get to them over mobile.....


----------



## jlbrach

it is a major problem to access things with this new upgrade....i used to be able to easily find offerings i had for sale which now is a major inconvenience as is most everything else...i wish they could give us the option to go back


----------



## Deftone

I hate how it does not show you how many posts have been added to your subbed threads since not looking at them, like it used to.


----------



## jlbrach

also on items you have listed for sale why does it no longer give you the option to bump it etc...also the picture i had in an ad no longer shows up..all in all IMHO an awful upgrade


----------



## Imusicman

Agreed. Using the site for the 1st time since the so called "upgrade"

What an awful user experience


----------



## flyte3333

Hi all, a question for any microRendu + LPS-1 owners feeding their Dave. Or SMS-200 + LPS-1

Have any of you tested the mRendu + LPS-1 combination vs a direct PC USB connection?

What were the differences you heard? And yes I know Rob said it shouldn't matter what USB source etc etc, but just a question for those that have the microRendu or SMS-200 + LPS-1 .

Cheers fellas !


----------



## jelt2359 (Apr 28, 2017)

I recalled that someone here mentioned that he used the headphone out to feed his Stax amp in order to make use of crossfeed.

I got curious and asked Rob. Apparently, when the crossfeed is set, it is set forever, for all outputs (regardless of whether headphones are plugged out, the DAVE is put on standby, or even turned off). In effect this means that crossfeed is a setting like any other, just that you must plug in headphones to set it.

Plug in headphones -> Set Crossfeed -> Unplug the headphones and enjoy the crossfeed settings through the external amp of your choice.

So now I'm using Crossfeed with my external amp, via the RCA inputs!

My friend with speakers apparently has also been using Crossfeed 1 with his speakers


----------



## Triode User

jelt2359 said:


> So I recalled that someone here mentioned that he used the headphone out to feed his Stax amp in order to make use of crossfeed.
> 
> I got curious and asked Rob. *Apparently, when the crossfeed is set, it is set forever, for all outputs (regardless of whether headphones are plugged out, the DAVE is put on standby, or even turned off). In effect this means that crossfeed is a setting like any other, just that you must plug in headphones to set it.*
> 
> ...



Really? Are you really really sure about that? I was pretty certain the crossfeed was only active when the headphones were plugged in, ie when Dave is in Headphone mode.


----------



## jelt2359

My info came from Rob.

Anyway it's easy to test, the effect is obvious.


----------



## ecwl

Rob Watts said:


> The RCA output is connected to the headphone - but via different relays. When Dave sees the headphone socket being used, it goes into headphone mode - shuts down the RCA and XLR, and restores the original volume setting when headphones were used last. Also cross-feed is enabled. The headphone sockets we use are as good as the RCA.
> 
> Rob



I found this from page 59 of this forum. It's possible I and other users misinterpreted what Rob Watts was saying. I got the impression that when the headphone socket is not in use, cross-feed is disabled. I also thought this design went back to the original Hugo. So if my interpretation is wrong about this, what is said would be true for Hugo, Hugo TT and Hugo 2?

As a total aside, it's bloody annoying to page back to page 59 of the forum with the new format of the website. We used to be able to click on Go To and type in the page.


----------



## Mediahound

ecwl said:


> I found this from page 59 of this forum. It's possible I and other users misinterpreted what Rob Watts was saying. I got the impression that when the headphone socket is not in use, cross-feed is disabled. I also thought this design went back to the original Hugo. So if my interpretation is wrong about this, what is said would be true for Hugo, Hugo TT and Hugo 2?
> 
> As a total aside, it's bloody annoying to page back to page 59 of the forum with the new format of the website. We used to be able to click on Go To and type in the page.



Crossfeed stays on (on all outputs) until/unless you turn it off with on the HugoTT.


----------



## JaZZ

jelt2359 said:


> I recalled that someone here mentioned that he used the headphone out to feed his Stax amp in order to make use of crossfeed.
> 
> I got curious and asked Rob. Apparently, when the crossfeed is set, it is set forever, for all outputs (regardless of whether headphones are plugged out, the DAVE is put on standby, or even turned off). In effect this means that crossfeed is a setting like any other, just that you must plug in headphones to set it.
> 
> ...



Interesting, didn't know that. Thanks for the tip!



ecwl said:


> As a total aside, it's bloody annoying to page back to page 59 of the forum with the new format of the website. We used to be able to click on Go To and type in the page.


As a workaround you could replace the current page number _(now «...page-559»)_ in the web address above with the number of the page you want to go to.


----------



## jelt2359

I think we all misintepreted. I messaged Rob to ask if there were any downsides to connect to my Stax amp via the headphone out, and got the surprising answer that it was not necessary to do so.

Psyched! I too am a triode user and it's great to be able to use crossfeed with my tube amps


----------



## ecwl

Oh my god! One whole year of listening through my speakers with crossfeed set at 3. One whole year.
I've always wondered why I don't get the soundstage or soundstage depth that everyone talks about with the DAVE when I listen through my speakers. Yeah. It's because I'm crossfeeding my bass. And I also wondered why sometimes when I listen to string quartets, the instruments feel more centred. Freaking crossfeed.

And yes, all day at work, this is what I've been thinking about. Was jelt2359 right? So the moment I got home after dinner, I ran JRiver, muted one channel in JRiver and then ran the Stereophile Test CD 3 with its channel identification track where they play pink noise on each channel and yeah, I can hear the bass playing on the muted speaker. The moment I switched Crossfeed back from 3 to 0, I got no sound from the muted speaker.

I am very happy though that I'm getting so much more from the music. I don't deserve my stereo since I'm obviously deaf and stupid. I should have heard this a long time ago.


----------



## x RELIC x

jelt2359 said:


> I recalled that someone here mentioned that he used the headphone out to feed his Stax amp in order to make use of crossfeed.
> 
> I got curious and asked Rob. Apparently, when the crossfeed is set, it is set forever, for all outputs (regardless of whether headphones are plugged out, the DAVE is put on standby, or even turned off). In effect this means that crossfeed is a setting like any other, just that you must plug in headphones to set it.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much for posting this!!


----------



## ecwl

I'm now wondering how many subpar reviews of Chord DAVE are out there because the Crossfeed is set incorrectly when demoing/reviewing with speakers. I think back to the Hi-Fi Critic review. We know the reviewer Rafael Todes loved Chord Mojo and Hugo for his headphones. Did he set his Chord DAVE to Crossfeed 3 when listening to his headphones and never changed it back? Is that why he found Naim NDS + 555PS DR to create a bigger soundstage and rhythmically tighter but a trifle more mechanical compared to DAVE's fluency when listening to speakers?


----------



## jelt2359

On the flipside I'm hearing my external headamps with crossfeed for the first time and it is quite the treat!!!

Fwiw those using speakers can try crossfeed 1 (the minimum setting). Heard there are good results for some.


----------



## AndrewOld

I have also just confirmed this behaviour using the pink noise test at wooferbasstest.com - with crossfeed set at anything else but 0 the right hand channel will play some noise when only the left hand channel is fed with signal, and vice versa.

This is a dreadful behaviour!

The manual says "In headphone mode you can select from 4 crossfeed settings to suit your listening experience and headphones. Use the up/down buttons or remote control to select the crossfeed option then use the left/right button to change the setting from crossfeed 1 to 4. "

This clearly implies that crossfeed only applies to headphone listening. The fact that the setting isn't even visible in normal listening mode, and that a different volume setting is retained, implies that the two modes are distinct.

Luckily I rarely listen to headphones, and rarely use crossfeed, but strangely enough last night I had been playing with some newish SE535s on my DAVE and then switched back to speakers and didn't engage as much as I usually do. I have now discovered why - the crossfeed was left on 1.

This is not a sensible behaviour, and I don't think it is acceptable.

If the crossfeed applies to headphones (for which it is designed) and speakers (for which it is not designed) then the setting should always be visible on the display, and should always be modifiable. As it is you have no idea what setting is set when you are listening to speakers, and you have to go away and find a pair of headphones to plug in to show a setting that should have no relevance to speaker listening.

I would prefer it if there was no crossfeed ever on speakers - it is a feature designed for headphones. If it is going to be applicable to speakers, then it must be shown on the display, and the user must be able to change it without plugging in headphones.

Anyhow, thanks to whoever it was that raised this issue - you have saved me from screwing up my hifi. Pity Chord couldn't have done the same.


----------



## bmichels (Apr 29, 2017)

Speaking about Crossfeed, I wonder if the magical *"Binaural mode"* that the $10.000 GOLDMUND THA2 headphone DAC/AMP pretend to recreate out of standard recording isn't just a Crossfeed ? This will be a great example of marketing bullsh.. !
--> Has anyone listened to the THA2's Binaural mode ?







*Extract from Goldmund's web page *:
_"....And it now comes with a new feature that will ravish headphone aficionados: The Binaural encoding.
This encoding is made thanks to algorithms that transform standard recordings into binaural. Any normal track can benefit from this feature thanks to a simple switch on the front panel of the amplifier. For recordings that are already in binaural, the switch should simply be on the STD position. In addition to a clear sense of depth, this feature greatly improves the natural balance between the instruments and provides a completely clear picture of the layout of the orchestra or band."_


----------



## AndrewOld

At least with the Goldmund you can see you've set the mode, marketing b* or not. With the DAVE you just get an invisible setting that introduces a massive amount of distorted crosstalk.


----------



## Crgreen

Stupid question but how do you know if crossfeed is turned on. I've used the up down arrows but these just cycle through the visible options. How do I view the invisible?


----------



## x RELIC x

Crgreen said:


> Stupid question but how do you know if crossfeed is turned on. I've used the up down arrows but these just cycle through the visible options. How do I view the invisible?



To see the crossfeed option you need headphone's plugged in. From there select left/right to engage the crossfeed when on the crossfeed option.


----------



## Crgreen

Thanks. I never did that so there's nothing further I need to do.


----------



## Kakki

Today, I had an opportunities to listen to Dave + Blu2 in Tokyo.

I own Dave but the sound came out from the Dave linked with Blu2 was pretty much different from the original sound I am familiar with... I have no appropriate words to explain the sound but what I heard reminded me of a very famous picture so I simply paste it here. 

The space is not totally black...


----------



## AndrewOld

Crgreen said:


> Thanks. I never did that so there's nothing further I need to do.



Still worth checking, you can't be sure how it left the factory or your dealer,  or whether anyone else has been messing with it.


----------



## rkt31

is there any video of blu 2 playing ?


----------



## onsionsi

@Kakki did you got your observation based on A\B test, one a listen to Blu2 with Dave and other is Dave only or did you get that based a listen to tracks that you are familiar with or is it vastly obvious because the enhancements was so big.


----------



## onsionsi

I'm trying to figure out the gallery of this forum and other forums but without success 
Any idea


----------



## JaZZ

onsionsi said:


> I'm trying to figure out the gallery of this forum and other forums but without success
> Any idea


When you go to the Gallery, below the «Head-Fi Gallery Menu» line there are a couple of links, unfortunately with white characters on a white background. The admin has promised that they will take for it, but currently they have other priorities. When you draw an imaginary vertical line from the right half of «Head Gear» downward, the topmost link will be «My Albums» if I recall correctly.


----------



## Rob Watts

I was with @Kakki at the time he heard the M scaler in Tokyo. It was a fairly brief listen, as although the stand had two Blu 2's it was very busy. And we spent quite a bit of time chatting too!

I can sympathize about his inability to give the appropriate words to describe the experience - it's possible to characterize the changes in the usual Hi-Fi terms - but there is something else going on, and its difficult to put your finger on it - all you know is that you are experiencing something very different.

Later on @jude dropped by, and we spent a lot of time talking. Anyway, I mentioned some extremely unusual headphones that I had seen at the show, and were basically open drivers - which have no right to reproduce any levels of bass. I managed to get hold of a pair, and then queued up to plug them into a Dave/Blu 2. Jude made the comment that even though he was hearing headphones that were clearly extremely unusual, and had never heard them before, he could still tell that he was hearing an M scaler - even though he had had only a relatively brief listen at CES some 4 months before.

Another example of this is that you can hear the effect of the M scaler even on recordings you have never heard before. So how can one summarize this? I guess if I had to put it in a simple sentence it would be it just simply sounds real - and everything else sounds wrong. Perhaps I am simply being a fanboy and caught up in my own enthusiasm for this - after all this last 9 months has been an extremely exciting period - but now that Blu 2's are now getting shipped, I am very curious to see other people's reaction to it after they have spent time actually living with it.

Rob


----------



## onsionsi

Thanks Rob for your reply and I'm eager to see other audiophiles opinion. 

Eventually, I liked your design and approach @Rob Watts and I'm looking forward to see your enhancements in this hoppy


----------



## tunes

This may be a bit off topic but wanted to hear from DAVE owners what music rips they listen to through through the DAVE.  There appears to be much controversy over something rates in bed death all over the place with many believing that there are no perceptible differences. Having said that, 
I rip all of my CDs to FLAC files and according to the dbpoweramp forums the sample rate is only 16kHz/44.1 but bit perfect.  Is there a way to rip a CD using dbpoweramp at a higher resolution or is this the best you can get from any CD?

I can spend more money and download my favorite FLAC albums ripped at 96kHz/24bit from places like HDtracks but even on the most expensive DAP available or playing FLAC files through a CHORD DAC like Hugo2 or DAVE would there be any advantage in perceived sound quality with TOTL headphones like Utopias??


----------



## miketlse

tunes said:


> This may be a bit off topic but wanted to hear from DAVE owners what music rips they listen to through through the DAVE.  There appears to be much controversy over something rates in bed death all over the place with many believing that there are no perceptible differences. Having said that,
> I rip all of my CDs to FLAC files and according to the dbpoweramp forums the sample rate is only 16kHz/44.1 but bit perfect.  Is there a way to rip a CD using dbpoweramp at a higher resolution or is this the best you can get from any CD?
> 
> I can spend more money and download my favorite FLAC albums ripped at 96kHz/24bit from places like HDtracks but even on the most expensive DAP available or playing FLAC files through a CHORD DAC like Hugo2 or DAVE would there be any advantage in perceived sound quality with TOTL headphones like Utopias??



@Rob Watts DACs internally upsample the input music files, and so there is little point in spending a lot of money buying/streaming HiRes tracks.


----------



## Kakki

Rob Watts said:


> I was with @Kakki at the time he heard the M scaler in Tokyo. It was a fairly brief listen, as although the stand had two Blu 2's it was very busy. And we spent quite a bit of time chatting too!
> 
> I can sympathize about his inability to give the appropriate words to describe the experience - it's possible to characterize the changes in the usual Hi-Fi terms - but there is something else going on, and its difficult to put your finger on it - all you know is that you are experiencing something very different.



Yes, I was with Rob in the event. I tried M-Scaler on / off with my own music / headphone that I knew very well.

Still... it is pretty difficult to explain the sound I heard because it was very different from usual sound I have heard.

It was very rich in details and gradation... and very very smooth that reminded me of the photo "Pillars of  Creation" that shows infinity space fulfilled with very beautiful gradation of star light particles.


----------



## lovethatsound

I believe  alot of people say WAV is better than FLAC.☺


----------



## lovethatsound

tunes said:


> This may be a bit off topic but wanted to hear from DAVE owners what music rips they listen to through through the DAVE.  There appears to be much controversy over something rates in bed death all over the place with many believing that there are no perceptible differences. Having said that,
> I rip all of my CDs to FLAC files and according to the dbpoweramp forums the sample rate is only 16kHz/44.1 but bit perfect.  Is there a way to rip a CD using dbpoweramp at a higher resolution or is this the best you can get from any CD?
> 
> I can spend more money and download my favorite FLAC albums ripped at 96kHz/24bit from places like HDtracks but even on the most expensive DAP available or playing FLAC files through a CHORD DAC like Hugo2 or DAVE would there be any advantage in perceived sound quality with TOTL headphones like Utopias??


----------



## pjk1

Just received my Chord Dave. Wow I am completely blown away at the sound. I was skeptical at the high price tag but it's completely justified.


----------



## JaZZ

pjk1 said:


> Just received my Chord Dave. Wow I am completely blown away at the sound. I was skeptical at the high price tag but it's completely justified.


Congrats,_ pjk1!_


----------



## Deftone (May 1, 2017)

lovethatsound said:


> I believe alot of people say WAV is better than FLAC☺



WAV and Flac are identical in quality, both lossless formats.

Choose whichever you like, i just went for WAV on all my CD rips, a bonus for Flac is it can be compressed without loosing any quality. People say WAV isnt good for holding tags but in my experience it can hold a lot of tags and artwork just a much as Flac.


----------



## lovethatsound (May 1, 2017)

Deftone said:


> WAV and Flac are identical in quality, both lossless formats.
> 
> Choose whichever you like, i just went for WAV on all my CD rips, a bonus for Flac is it can be compressed without loosing any quality. People say WAV isnt good for holding tags but in my experience it can hold a lot of tags and artwork just a much as Flac.


Because Flac is compressed,that's why some people say WAV is better,their's a ongoing argument about it,just saying that's all.


----------



## bmichels

lovethatsound said:


> Because Flac is compressed,that's why some people say WAV is better,their's a ongoing argument about it,just saying that's all.



May be in the past, with little processing power, the DAC were strugeling to decompress + play the file, but now... with such powerful processor, I guess it is not a problem anymore to execute those 2 tasks at the same time.  So, WAV better than FLAC was may be true in the past...


----------



## lovethatsound

bmichels said:


> May be in the past, with little processing power, the DAC were strugeling to decompress + play the file, but now... with such powerful processor, I guess it is not a problem anymore to execute those 2 tasks at the same time.  So, WAV better than FLAC was may be true in the past...


I fully understand what your saying,but still if something is compressed, it's more work for the processor to do.Their was a big debate about this on the naim forum's a while ago . who's right?who's wrong? I don't know.


----------



## ThatPhil

DBPoweramp can rip CDs to FLAC with zero compression so you can have the best of both.


----------



## x RELIC x (May 1, 2017)

CD rips are fine, great quality from CD can be had at 16/44.1. Personally, I would not look at lossless format debates like WAV vs compressed formats FLAC/ALAC when considering quality. Also, the DAC has nothing to to do with the processing of the format as it recieves a PCM bitstream from the source and pretty much any source is capable of decompressing lossless compressions seamlessly now.

More importantly is the quality of the Master. This is a great article with some fantastic examples for audible differences heard between poor and great mastered music regarding dynamic compression, all the more perceptible by the DAVE.

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/ca/ca-academy/dynamic-range-no-quiet-no-loud-r643/


Here's a clip referenced in the article that demonstrates how bad sound can be because of poor mastering dynamic compression, which sadly has become the norm:



Funny how computer processing has become so powerful today and yet many of our albums suffer at the hands of poor decisions.


----------



## Deftone

I can understand why compression is used in the likes of metal music for example it can make it sound aggressive with more bite, when it is done tastefully. But most of the time its not done like that and its starved for air and very distorted. I have a few low DR5/6 albums that sound incredibly clean and dynamic (i dont know how) which im happy with. Imo though HDR should always be a priority but sadly most artist think "loud is cool".


----------



## Christer

U


miketlse said:


> @Rob Watts DACs internally upsample the input music files, and so there is little point in spending a lot of money buying/streaming HiRes tracks.


Please clarify, 
Until I get to hear the downsampled to 16/44.1 original master hi res file  sounding as good as the master  I very much doubt this with large scale acoustic music.
The lowest res I played via DAVE was 24/48 and it was  audibly, less resolved and  less realistic than 24/96 and higher rates  to me.  
Nothing is  natively recorded recorded at 16/44.1 in the classical genre since MANY YEARS, and I don't see any logical reason to buy a downsampled  16/44.1version of a  hi res recording, only to have it "upressed" again  by a modern DAC, when you can get the original in the first place?
Why first involve downsampling of an original file and then upsampling in later steps?
What  possible benefits would one get from going through those steps?


----------



## Triode User

Christer said:


> U
> 
> Please clarify,
> Until I get to hear the downsampled to 16/44.1 original master hi res file  sounding as good as the master  I very much doubt this with large scale acoustic music.
> ...



The trouble is knowing whether you are buying an original hi res master to download or merely an upsampled 16/44.1 file.


----------



## gnomen (May 2, 2017)

tunes said:


> This may be a bit off topic but wanted to hear from DAVE owners what music rips they listen to through through the DAVE.  There appears to be much controversy over something rates in bed death all over the place with many believing that there are no perceptible differences. Having said that,
> I rip all of my CDs to FLAC files and according to the dbpoweramp forums the sample rate is only 16kHz/44.1 but bit perfect.  Is there a way to rip a CD using dbpoweramp at a higher resolution or is this the best you can get from any CD?
> 
> I can spend more money and download my favorite FLAC albums ripped at 96kHz/24bit from places like HDtracks but even on the most expensive DAP available or playing FLAC files through a CHORD DAC like Hugo2 or DAVE would there be any advantage in perceived sound quality with TOTL headphones like Utopias??



AFAIK 16/44 is all there is on the CD file because that is the Red Book standard.  Getting more than that from a CD is just going to be upsampling and, as someone has said, Rob's DACs already upsample more effectively than any software you can use.  

In my experience it is worth purchasing genuine 24/96 when it is available, but no higher than that, and only if the source material warrants it  --   i.e. the content, the performance, the recording and engineering mix and so on are all of a really high standard.  So I have only downloaded hi-res replacements for a handful of my ripped CDs. 

Many 70s and 80s CDs were multi-tracked and manipulated at the recording stage so higher res does not give you any further clarity.  OTOH I have Linda Ronstadt both from CDs and from HDTracks and the latter is definitely better.  Some cynics say sites like HDTracks just upsample and charge you more, which I have not found to be the case, but I guess _caveat emptor_ applies as usual!


----------



## Christer

Triode User said:


> The trouble is knowing whether you are buying an original hi res master to download or merely an upsampled 16/44.1 file.


Not a problem at all, with the reliable  sites like Challenge Classics, eClassical, Highresaudio,and Qobuz, and several others I use.
For those who listen with their eyes instead of ears and need other proof than the  audible one, of the authenticity their files there are even some that provide a frequency content screenshot of the files they sell.
And since almost everything in classical is recorded at 24/96 or higher pcm rates these days I see little reason to buy downsampled to rbcd standard versions of originally hi res recorded music.
I don't have the foggiest what goes on in the pop rock and electronic genres though with those I would probably agree with Rob's statement   and even add that you don't need more than MP3 anyway with most of it, because the  low level  fine inner detail instrumental timbre and acoustic information  and dynamic range so important with classical and acoustic music isn't there in the source material anyway.


----------



## gintamafans

Just realized hugo2 launched, so will dave2 be soon?


----------



## Rob Watts

Absolutely not!

Dave took over 2 man years, I am certainly not about to start doing that again! Got Davina and the Power Pulse Array amps to do and that will keep me busy for the next few years. Yes that's what the new power amp tech will be called - Power Pulse Array...


----------



## lovethatsound

gintamafans said:


> Just realized hugo2 launched, so will dave2 be soon?


IF you add a blu mk 2 wouldn't you class that has a Dave 2?


----------



## Triode User

lovethatsound said:


> IF you add a blu mk 2 wouldn't you class that has a Dave 2?


That would be adding 2 plus 2 and getting 5!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (May 2, 2017)

Someone mentioned recently that there was an imminent review of Dave by Stereophile. Does anyone have an approx. Time-line on that review?


----------



## maxh22

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Someone mentioned recently that here was an imminent review of Dave by Stereophile. Does anyone have an approx. Time-line on that review?



June Issue.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Thanks I shall look forward to that maxh22


----------



## onsionsi

@Rob Watts, does the headphone system can benefit from power pulse array amp or is this amp is forward to speaker system?


----------



## EVOLVIST

I've traded my DAVE for some other products at the moment. I could always get a new DAVE if I wanted to go back. 

I suppose it's all from a philosophical perspective of not getting hung up on just one thing. 

It had been a while since I had tried other DACs, so since I'm rebuilding with a speaker system I figured no time like the present to experiment with others. 

It feels kind of liberating, actually. All of this is so subjective anyway. Fun!


----------



## jlbrach (May 2, 2017)

EVOLVIST said:


> I've traded my DAVE for some other products at the moment. I could always get a new DAVE if I wanted to go back.
> 
> I suppose it's all from a philosophical perspective of not getting hung up on just one thing.
> 
> ...




wow,I am shocked to hear you traded your Dave...i thought you had ordered a Blu 2?What Dac will you be replacing it with?


----------



## EVOLVIST

Man, this new forum does not like my mobile phone! 

Umm... I've got a few boutique R2R DACs in. I'm just playing around, while keeping within budget. I'm not saying there is a replacement for the DAVE; I just don't have one right now. 

I'm on a quest for musicality, not just transparency. Obviously those two can go hand-in-hand, but right now, in my mind, the former overshadows the latter. 

Chord will always be here. In fact, I have an excellent review coming for the TToby amp. It's just changing my perspective a bit to see if it matches up with the reality that I hear.


----------



## Sonic77

Rob Watts said:


> Absolutely not!
> 
> Dave took over 2 man years, I am certainly not about to start doing that again! Got Davina and the Power Pulse Array amps to do and that will keep me busy for the next few years. Yes that's what the new power amp tech will be called - Power Pulse Array...


Power pulse array with warp drive, I'll take two.


----------



## Rob Watts

onsionsi said:


> @Rob Watts, does the headphone system can benefit from power pulse array amp or is this amp is forward to speaker system?



It is mostly intended for speaker drive, using the DX digital outputs from Dave. There are one or two headphones that would appreciate the extra power though.


----------



## Deftone

I like that change, It could increase Evolvists appreciation for the Dave it or might show him that's it's not what he thought it was. It could go either way but it is interesting.

I remember a post from a headfier quite a few years back, he said he was tired of chasing expensive end game gear with crazy specs and  forgot to enjoy the music, then in the end he left headfi. Happy with just an old iPod and some cheap sennheiser px100 headphone.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Deftone said:


> I like that change, It could increase Evolvists appreciation for the Dave it or might show him that's it's not what he thought it was. It could go either way but it is interesting.
> 
> I remember a post from a headfier quite a few years back, he said he was tired of chasing expensive end game gear with crazy specs and  forgot to enjoy the music, then in the end he left headfi. Happy with just an old iPod and some cheap sennheiser px100 headphone.



Yeah, you know, and it's not just the specs, but it's also Ad-Fi, as opposed to Hi-Fi that will get ya.

That said, had I stuck with headphones, there would be no way that I would contemplate a change from the DAVE. No way! I can't imagine anything better for cans. But right, I just want to enjoy the music instead of chasing unicorns and three-breasted women.

Similar to your story, there was a guy who had a Metrum Pavane. He loved it! Then he heard a Emotiva XMC-1. Yeah, he said that the Pavane beat it, but to his ears, not close enough to keep the Pavane. So he invested in some quality tube monoblocks for his Emotiva and rolled with it. That might sound crazy, but to each their own.

So, if it's DAVE again, cool. If it's not, cool. I'm just digging on the moment right now.


----------



## Kakki

Actually, I'm here waiting for the power amp for about 2 years now ... so very excited to hear that Rob will have time to focus on the power amp project this year!

I'm sure that Chord is coming up with a nice brand name for the amp.

Pulse Array Power Amp... Papa?
Pulse Array Main Amp... Parma?

Anyway, I will be very much interested to hear the next update for the power amp!


----------



## stvc

Just wonder how much power for these new amp.


----------



## tunes

pjk1 said:


> Just received my Chord Dave. Wow I am completely blown away at the sound. I was skeptical at the high price tag but it's completely justified.


What is the M-scaler and what can it do to improve the sound of the DAVE??


----------



## x RELIC x

tunes said:


> What is the M-scaler and what can it do to improve the sound of the DAVE??



The M-Scalar (currently only available with the Blu mk2) plugs in to the DAVE for the capability of 1 million TAPs. I'd say search this thread and the Blu mk2 thread, but that isn't a possibility on Head Fi right now.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Evolvist
I am with you on the quest for musicality over other considerations. There is a lot of kit out there which can deliver good musicality, I think though what Dave delivers above that is deep emotion. For me, that's its trump card and I hope Blu2 M Scaler will add further to this key attribute. Have fun considering alternatives. As long as the music moves you the quest is always worthwhile.


----------



## tunes (May 4, 2017)

x RELIC x said:


> The M-Scalar (currently only available with the Blu mk2) plugs in to the DAVE for the capability of 1 million TAPs. I'd say search this thread and the Blu mk2 thread, but that isn't a possibility on Head Fi right now.



I really do not understand why someone would want a CD transport to spin an optical disc in this era when most of us are storing away CDs after creating FLAC files on solid state storage media to play through the DAVE or HUGO2. As far as the M-scaler and million TAPs, why not just create the DAVE2 upgrade and incorporate the M-scaler technology?  What am I missing in this discussion?


----------



## Sonic77

tunes said:


> I really do not understand why someone would want a CD transport to spin an optical disc in this era when most of us are storing away CDs after creating FLAC files on solid state storage media to play through the DAVE or HUGO2. As far as the M-scaler and million TAPs, why not just create the DAVE2 upgrade and incorporate the M-scaler technology?  What am I missing in this discussion?


The reason they cannot incorporate the M Scaler into a Dave 2 is because it requires 10 amps to run and that would cause too much interference into Dave delicate circuitry. The reason it was incorporated in the cd player was because that was what Rob was working on at the time, (correct me if I'm wrong).


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Blu Mk II M Scaler is so powerful using so much power that it needs to be separated from Dave to keep noise floor down I believe. Also the Blu Mk II upscales at 16x Red Book 44.1 kHz something your streamer won't do from the hard drive unless it goes through the BLu Mk II M Scaler first. Still a major proportion of audiophiles still prefer to spin discs. Especially so in Asia I believe. Each to their own.

What does it do? Well this is what Chord has to say ".........This remarkable capability takes transient accuracy to a completely unprecedented level: it becomes simpler to perceive the leading edge of transient notes, creating a life-like sound-field. Bass definition is massively improved, with greater ability to follow the tune. Sound-staging, instrument separation and focus are also noticeably better, along with vastly improved variation in instrument timbre."


----------



## x RELIC x

tunes said:


> I really do not understand why someone would want a CD transport to spin an optical disc in this era when most of us are storing away CDs after creating FLAC files on solid state storage media to play through the DAVE or HUGO2. As far as the M-scaler and million TAPs, why not just create the DAVE2 upgrade and incorporate the M-scaler technology?  What am I missing in this discussion?



Then use the USB input in the Blu mk2 to play FLAC. It's just the product the M-Scalar is in _currently_. Perhaps in the future it will be in others. 

As was mentioned, there are power limitations and obstacles to overcome which is why the M-Scalar can't run in the same chassis. The M-Scalar draws a lot of power for the ridiculous amount of calculation it is doing.


----------



## shuttlepod

I've been quiet on this forum for probably six months, just reading posts and enjoying my DAVE as I make progress refining my digital signal path (I'm now using the bridged ethernet "direct" connection advocated by Roy (Romaz) on computeraudiophile.com with an SoTM SMS-200). 

Anyway, just today I came across the various posts expressing surprise that DAVE's crossfeed setting remains active when using speakers. I was also surprised at this, to put it mildly, and I too tested it out with the Stereophile channel identification track. Sure enough, with crossfeed activated, the speaker channels were not separated at all. 

Does this make an audible sonic difference?

Yes, and the difference is VERY significant -- on speakers, the signal is cleaner, the soundstage much better sorted, and the perception of depth greater when crossfeed is set to zero. Unfortunately, I listen to headphones as well as speakers and my crossfeed had been set at 1 or 2 for most of the time I've had my DAVE. 

Although I have unending respect for the brilliance of Rob's and Chord's design for the DAVE, Chord's failure to make it clear to users that the crossfeed setting remains active at all times (not just with headphone listening) is a serious issue that should be addressed. At the very LEAST, the manual should be rewritten to reflect the actual operation of the machine. And, in my opinion, the DAVE suffers a design defect because the crossfeed setting is not visible when using speakers (only when a headphone is actually plugged in). This is simply misleading -- how many other users have unknowingly had crossfeed activated while listening to speakers because they (reasonably) assumed the setting only applied to headphones? The result, unfortunately, is compromised sound.

Chord, do you plan to do something about this? It will lead to enhanced appreciation of music and correct usage of DAVE.


----------



## ray-dude

shuttlepod said:


> Yes, and the difference is VERY significant -- on speakers, the signal is cleaner, the soundstage much better sorted, and the perception of depth greater when crossfeed is set to zero. Unfortunately, I listen to headphones as well as speakers and my crossfeed had been set at 1 or 2 for most of the time I've had my DAVE.
> 
> (snip)
> 
> Chord, do you plan to do something about this? It will lead to enhanced appreciation of music and correct usage of DAVE.



+100  

I'm embarrassed to say I too was surprised by this.  As awesome as the DAVE headphone is (honestly, it is transformative), I've been struggling to get my speaker performance to even close to the same level.  Switching off cross talk made a HUGE difference. (and yes, I felt more than a little embarrassed that the degradation tail I was chasing was my own)

That being said, the improvements I've been making in my 2 channel setup are still there, so there is a silver lining to have had the motivation to find and make those improvements.

The current crossfeed setup is certainly non-intuitive at a should be well documented (alas, the firmware behavior is what it is)  I appreciate the folks on the forum that chased this down and shared their experiences.


----------



## jelt2359

ray-dude said:


> +100
> 
> I'm embarrassed to say I too was surprised by this.  As awesome as the DAVE headphone is (honestly, it is transformative), I've been struggling to get my speaker performance to even close to the same level.  Switching off cross talk made a HUGE difference. (and yes, I felt more than a little embarrassed that the degradation tail I was chasing was my own)
> 
> ...



What's most ironic is that ultimately I chased it down because I had always purposely set crossfeed at 0 and now wanted to try it at non-0 with my other external headamps. LOL.


----------



## GreenLeo

shuttlepod said:


> I've been quiet on this forum for probably six months, just reading posts and enjoying my DAVE as I make progress refining my digital signal path (I'm now using the bridged ethernet "direct" connection advocated by Roy (Romaz) on computeraudiophile.com with an SoTM SMS-200).
> 
> Anyway, just today I came across the various posts expressing surprise that DAVE's crossfeed setting remains active when using speakers. I was also surprised at this, to put it mildly, and I too tested it out with the Stereophile channel identification track. Sure enough, with crossfeed activated, the speaker channels were not separated at all.
> 
> ...



Hi,

There are users who use external amp to drive the HP.  Hence RCA/XLR out with crossfed is important for them.


----------



## Christer (May 7, 2017)

shuttlepod said:


> I've been quiet on this forum for probably six months, just reading posts and enjoying my DAVE as I make progress refining my digital signal path (I'm now using the bridged ethernet "direct" connection advocated by Roy (Romaz) on computeraudiophile.com with an SoTM SMS-200).
> 
> Anyway, just today I came across the various posts expressing surprise that DAVE's crossfeed setting remains active when using speakers. I was also surprised at this, to put it mildly, and I too tested it out with the Stereophile channel identification track. Sure enough, with crossfeed activated, the speaker channels were not separated at all.
> 
> ...


Hmm, what surprises me about this finding is that many don't seem to hear the same differences via headphones?
I initially tried the crossfeed settings with my HUGO but quickly realized that it messed up the intended soundstage balance with  realistic simply mic'd  recordings of acoustic music.
With  classical music the recording engineer generally monitors via headphones at sessions and balances accordingly.
Only rarely do the recording balances exaggerate or isolate  and ping pong effect, the left right channels via headphones.
If anything I would say that headphone listening without crossfeed is sometimes the best way to  actually hear the enormous width of an orchestra that most stereo systems with speakers fail to  reveal except in very large rooms with speakers far apart. 
From the front stalls in many concert halls the distance between the first violins on the left and the basses on the right of the podium is often 30 metres or more.
Soundstage width is about as important as depth to me.
To my ears crossfeed creates an artificial width loss effect I don't like via headphones too.
The closer you know how a recording was balanced,the more obvious the artificiality of crossfeed.
Once again with pop and rock and such genres there is often no actual soundstage to be recreated anyway.


----------



## jelt2359

Christer said:


> Hmm, what surprises me about this finding is that many don't seem to hear the same differences via headphones?
> I initially tried the crossfeed settings with my HUGO but quickly realized that it messed up the intended soundstage balance with  realistic simply mic'd  recordings of acoustic music.
> With  classical music the recording engineer generally monitors via headphones at sessions and balances accordingly.
> Only rarely do the recording balances exaggerate or isolate  and ping pong effect, the left right channels via headphones.
> ...



I have been living without crossfeed for many years. When I recently tried the crossfeed feature to my external amps, I was surprised. The center imaging became much more coherent and precise. It sounded way more like speakers that disappear, rather than having two obvious drivers on each side of your head. I often have that illusion with speakers, where you seriously can't tell where the sound is coming from. This is seldom the case with headphones. Crossfeed is not a free lunch, you gain some you lose some, you definitely lose width but the drivers also 'disappear' more- whether that's worthwhile to you is a choice you make.

Anyway settings 0, 1, 2 and 3 are there for you to tune to however much crossfeed you like.


----------



## AndrewC88

Sonic77 said:


> The reason they cannot incorporate the M Scaler into a Dave 2 is because it requires 10 amps to run and that would cause too much interference into Dave delicate circuitry. ...



Does it really though?

The Xilinx Artix XC7A200T FPGA draws less than 400mA of current at peak with a 1.8V supply … Are there more than one of those chips in Blu Mk2? Or is it a typo in their published specs?

http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/product/blu-mk-2/#techspec


> FPGA current draw: 10amps


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I didn't know about the cross feed working when speakers are used with Dave but as I do not use phones it was set at zero. What is perplexing is that it seems to work on settings of 0-3 not 1-4 as the manual says.


----------



## Malcyg (May 5, 2017)

shuttlepod said:


> Anyway, just today I came across the various posts expressing surprise that DAVE's crossfeed setting remains active when using speakers. I was also surprised at this, to put it mildly, and I too tested it out with the Stereophile channel identification track. Sure enough, with crossfeed activated, the speaker channels were not separated at all. /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Malcyg

Hi, I am a new member and I'm not sure why my first post above has been joined in with the post I was quoting. My post was:

Thanks for this info. I use my Dave 95% of the time through speakers and only a small amount through headphones. I have crossfeed set to 3 and had assumed that this had no impact on the settings through speakers. I will check this out later on but, if it is true what you have said, then this really should be made clear in the manual.

On a separate point, are there any conclusive findings on whether, and by how much, the Dave is improved by using the Blu II M Scaler? I'm not sure that I understand what it is doing - is it not just similar to software upscaling?


----------



## Triode User

AndrewC88 said:


> Does it really though?
> 
> The Xilinx Artix XC7A200T FPGA draws less than 400mA of current at peak with a 1.8V supply … Are there more than one of those chips in Blu Mk2? Or is it a typo in their published specs?
> 
> http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/product/blu-mk-2/#techspec



The published power consumption of Blu2 is 30w which is probably more relevant to what is going on internally. On the basis that the CD mechanism is drawing a very small current then most of the power consumption is due to the electronics. 
30w of heat being generated in the enclosed Blu2 box is going to get pretty hot!
By contrast, the power consumption of the Dave isn't even mentioned.


----------



## AndrewC88

Triode User said:


> The published power consumption of Blu2 is 30w which is probably more relevant to what is going on internally.
> ...



That would imply only slightly over 0.16Amps of current draw in a 230V AC setup (assuming a power factor of 0.8). No way the FPGA could be drawing "10Amps" of current, unless there’s a whole bank of them.

Clearly there’re some typos going on that published specs on that Blu Mk 2 web page; notice “Power Supply: 90v AC - *24v* AC Auto-Switching” (there's a missing “0” for 240V).


----------



## x RELIC x (May 5, 2017)

Malcyg said:


> On a separate point, are there any conclusive findings on whether, and by how much, the Dave is improved by using the Blu II M Scaler? I'm not sure that I understand what it is doing - is it not just similar to software upscaling?



Basically it adds to the DAVE's filter and achieves 1 million TAPs with the DAVE. It's a much more complex algorithm than just up-sampling. Since the thread search function is not available with the new site format I'll copy this from Rob.

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-457#post-13175616



Spoiler: Rob on reactions to the M-Scalar






Rob Watts said:


> Now that the dust has settled and I have had some time to collect my thoughts on the M scaler, I thought I would post some impressions, based on what people heard at the show.
> 
> Firstly, some background. I first heard the 512,000 tap WTA filter in late July - and was pretty much knocked out by the changes in performance, so then started work on the full M scaler, which I got to listen too in late November. The final version, once all the audibly changing bugs was fixed, was last Christmas eve. So we are talking about very recent developments.
> 
> ...


[/spoiler[




For specific details on the M-Scalar you may want to look through Rob's posts for information.

https://www.head-fi.org/f/members/rob-watts.394072/#postings


----------



## TheAttorney

Triode User said:


> The published power consumption of Blu2 is 30w
> By contrast, the power consumption of the Dave isn't even mentioned.



That doesn't explain the comment about BLU 2 getting much hotter than DAVE, which is also around 30w. And it doesn't correlate to the comments that it's not possible to fit M-Scaler into DAVE's enclosure because of excessive current impacting the DAC's delicate circuits.


----------



## TheAttorney

Back to the cross-feed revelation – this now explains why I had earlier felt that my Stax 009’s (via external amp) didn’t seem to benefit from cross-feed as much as my directly connected HEK V2’s. The 009’s were getting CF all along! Even after this revelation, I still feel the 009’s can be happy enough without CF, but for my HEK’s CF is essential to remove a  slight “hole in the middle” effect that the HEK’s extra wide soundstage can give (recording-dependant).    

I agree with recent posts about poor documentation on this point, but now that we know how it works, it’s generally a good thing for those that use external headphone amps. But it is also a reminder that DAVE’s UI is rather clunky in some respects. Rob has earlier admitted that he ran out of time and inspiration on the UI part, preferring to expend his energies on getting the best SQ.

I don’t want to complain_ too_ much about this, as I still find the rather unique “cyclops” display one of DAVE’s more attractive features. But the UI needs to be improved whenever a firmware update is done (I’m not holding my breath on this one): Top of the list is to remove that irritating 8 second selection timeout, and now to keep the cross-feed function visible at all times.


----------



## TheAttorney (May 8, 2017)

Earlier, we also became aware that DAVE’s CF adds bass boost as part of its processing. And I commented that CF seems to reduce transparency – giving a “thicker”, duller sound. JaZZ replied that HEK’s transparency is very sensitive to bass changes. So I tried it and I agree with him. For my preferred CF2 setting for my HEK V2’s, I settled on -1.7db at 60hz, and Q=0.2 which gives a very broad shallow dip in the bass response, that returns to 0db roughly by 900hz. That probably doesn’t exactly match the CF’s bass change that Rob described, but I’m going by what sounds best to me. I’m not saying this is the perfect adjustment, but it’s where I stopped before getting bored with tweaking.

I was surprised by 2 things:

Firstly, that I didn’t notice much difference to level of bass when changing the bass response – the perceived changes had greater effect on the overall transparency of the sound. After trying various settings, the perceived FR still wasn’t exactly the same as CF0 with no EQ, and maybe I shouldn’t expect it to be so - considering CF by definition is altering the presentation of the soundstage.

Secondly, I was surprised that I could hear (or thought I could hear) even tiny adjustments. E.g. going from -1.5db to -1.7db, or from 0.3Q to 0.2Q. This was with the HEK’s. Each change may have been subtle, but it all added up to a more satisfying musical experience. My 009’s seemed to be much less fussy on such matters, so as always YMMV.

 This experience has re-enforced my view that the HEK V2’s scale really well with the transparency of the rest of the system, and that therefore they and DAVE are a match made in heaven. But if the upstream components have a problem, than that problem will be faithfully reproduced by this pairing.


----------



## miketlse

AndrewC88 said:


> That would imply only slightly over 0.16Amps of current draw in a 230V AC setup (assuming a power factor of 0.8). No way the FPGA could be drawing "10Amps" of current, unless there’s a whole bank of them.
> 
> Clearly there’re some typos going on that published specs on that Blu Mk 2 web page; notice “Power Supply: 90v AC - *24v* AC Auto-Switching” (there's a missing “0” for 240V).



There is a post by Rob Watts explaining the figures (unfortunately the search this thread functionality is no longer available, so try Google).
I think that you are going wrong by assuming 240V - the voltage used in Robs calculations is much lower.


----------



## AndrewOld

Malcyg said:


> Hi, I am a new member and I'm not sure why my first post above has been joined in with the post I was quoting. My post was:
> 
> Thanks for this info. I use my Dave 95% of the time through speakers and only a small amount through headphones. I have crossfeed set to 3 and had assumed that this had no impact on the settings through speakers. I will check this out later on but, if it is true what you have said, then this really should be made clear in the manual.



If you have your crossfeed set to 3 then the 95% of the time that you are listening to your DAVE through speakers it will be giving you substantial crosstalk and distortion, albeit signal related.

Not good.

imo this should not be made clear in the manual, it should just not happen. Or at the very least it should be visible on the display and adjustable when you are listening to speakers. Who knows how many people - customers, dealers and reviewers - have been caught out by this, and still are being. Not every DAVE owner ploughs their way through this forum.


----------



## WoSoLoo (May 5, 2017)

Malcyg said:


> Hi, I am a new member and I'm not sure why my first post above has been joined in with the post I was quoting. My post was:
> 
> Thanks for this info. I use my Dave 95% of the time through speakers and only a small amount through headphones. I have crossfeed set to 3 and had assumed that this had no impact on the settings through speakers. I will check this out later on but, if it is true what you have said, then this really should be made clear in the manual.
> 
> On a separate point, are there any conclusive findings on whether, and by how much, the Dave is improved by using the Blu II M Scaler? I'm not sure that I understand what it is doing - is it not just similar to software upscaling?


the crossfeed feature will keep running, you should change to crossfeed 0 before unplug the headphone.
very lucky, I like crossfeed 0 in headphone mode


----------



## JaZZ

AndrewOld said:


> If you have your *crossfeed* set to 3 then the 95% of the time that you are listening to your DAVE through speakers it will be giving you* substantial crosstalk and distortion*, albeit signal related.


Crosstalk happens exclusively at low frequencies, and there's no harmonic distortion added – to be clear! –, just a moderate amplitude-response distortion in favor of the bass. Nevertheless, I agree that crossfeed with speakers may be detrimental to sound quality. On the other hand, during my speaker phase I had the wish that there was something like this to spread the ultra-low-frequency range (subwoofer frequencies) to both channels for increasing the effective membrane surface of the woofers. I don't listen to speakers anymore, but I can imagine that Crossfeed 1 would come close to this.


----------



## shuttlepod

JaZZ, I can assure you that crossfeed IS detrimental to sound quality when listening to speakers. Maybe there is a rare recording that would benefit but you are losing transparency and soundstage focus to a very significant degree. It pains me to think how many hours I've listened to DAVE with compromised sound (conversely, I'm thrilled to get better sound, but then I keep thinking:  I should have had this all along and I can't really blame myself for this one . . .) Chord should address this!


----------



## JaZZ

shuttlepod said:


> JaZZ, I can assure you that crossfeed IS detrimental to sound quality when listening to speakers. Maybe there is a rare recording that would benefit but you are losing transparency and soundstage focus to a very significant degree. It pains me to think how many hours I've listened to DAVE with compromised sound (conversely, I'm thrilled to get better sound, but then I keep thinking:  I should have had this all along and I can't really blame myself for this one . . .) Chord should address this!


That's not hard to believe. But how about Crossfeed 1 specifically?


----------



## miketlse

AndrewC88 said:


> That would imply only slightly over 0.16Amps of current draw in a 230V AC setup (assuming a power factor of 0.8). No way the FPGA could be drawing "10Amps" of current, unless there’s a whole bank of them.
> 
> Clearly there’re some typos going on that published specs on that Blu Mk 2 web page; notice “Power Supply: 90v AC - *24v* AC Auto-Switching” (there's a missing “0” for 240V).



10A at 1V
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-438#post-13150786


----------



## AndrewC88

miketlse said:


> 10A at 1V
> https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-438#post-13150786



Thanks for the link! 

I also found Rob’s absolutely brilliant Blu mk 2 technology presentation post #172 as well, that says the XC7A200T consumes “enormous peak 10A current”.

Re-looking at the Xilinx data sheet and summing the "absolute maximum current" draws of the FPGA logic blocks/DSP cores/IO/Memory, I think I can see how 10Amp peaks could happen!


----------



## Rob Watts

AndrewC88 said:


> Does it really though?
> 
> The Xilinx Artix XC7A200T FPGA draws less than 400mA of current at peak with a 1.8V supply … Are there more than one of those chips in Blu Mk2? Or is it a typo in their published specs?
> 
> http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/product/blu-mk-2/#techspec



You have quoted the quiescent or the leakage current of the FPGA - that is it is just powered up, with no clocks running at all! Normally leakage current is a few uA, and here it is 0.4 A!

I have put a low power mode into Blu 2 - so when there is digital silence, the DSP cores are switched off. In this mode, the FPGA still consumes 2A, and in usual operation it measures out at 10A - 528 DSP cores running is a lot of power even for an incredibly efficient FPGA.

Rob


----------



## AndrewC88

Rob Watts said:


> You have quoted the quiescent or the leakage current of the FPGA - that is it is just powered up, with no clocks running at all! Normally leakage current is a few uA, and here it is 0.4 A!
> ...
> Rob



Thanks for the clarification Rob, I realised that after taking a 2nd look at the numbers!


----------



## tunes

Linn Klimax DS Digital Streamer costs about $23,000 and the DAC incorporated also up samples the digital data for better sound.    How does this differ from what is done in the Dave and is it that much better?  Can the DAVE serve as a DAC for streaming from TIDAL??


----------



## shuttlepod

JaZZ said:


> That's not hard to believe. But how about Crossfeed 1 specifically?


Hi JaZZ--

Yes, I can hear some degradation of the sound with Crossfeed set at 1 (when using speakers), though not as much as 2 or 3. When testing channel separation with the Stereophile test CD, it is actually surprising how much sound is produced in the channel that is not supposed to have any sound when Crossfeed is set at 1. It is not something you have to strain to hear.


----------



## ecwl

I think the Hugo manual was pretty clear on the crossfeed 
Crossfeed 1 - 9dB 700Hz
Crossfeed 2 - 6dB 700Hz
Crossfeed 3 - 4.5dB 700Hz

I don't fully understand what that means. But I think when I google Bauer crossfeed, the first thing that comes up seems to explain what a similar crossfeed would do. But then I don't fully understand that article either.


----------



## hieukm

Here is 2 clips of Dave vs Dave + Blue. Enjoy.


----------



## tunes

What is the CD that is being played??
What are the speakers? 
What amp?


----------



## theveterans

^ The microphone and video camera that they use are terrible. Room acoustics are all over the place too where the mic is positioned.


----------



## miketlse

theveterans said:


> ^ The microphone and video camera that they use are terrible. Room acoustics are all over the place too where the mic is positioned.



Also the audio can only be as good as the dac that people use when they watch the video, so you will never hear the same sound quality as the people in the room listening to the DAVE + Blu (2?).


----------



## Sonic77

With the Blu MkII the bass seemed to go lower.


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## hieukm

Anyone who cant hear that the M-Scaler gave at least 2 notch up on resolution needs to have their ears checked. We are not looking at absolute performance hence discussing room acoustic speaker system is pointless. It is the same phone recording 2 version: one wtih M-Scaler and one without. Listen for incremental differences and you will see how amazing M-Scaler is. 

Btw, listen through your phone speaker will be easier to detect the difference than listen through headphone.


----------



## Light - Man

tunes said:


> *What is the CD that is being played??*
> What are the speakers?
> What amp?



Salena Jones - You Don't Bring Me Flowers


----------



## rkt31

wow, I had some audiophile voices CD which had a salena Jones song. with the first song itself I knew that she has one of the cleanest and powerful voice the other one I liked of Eva Cassidy's . great song selection indeed for Dave +Blu 2


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## rkt31

the difference is of expression . with m scaler the voice has more expression .


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## adyc (May 7, 2017)

Yes. I need to have my ears checked. I cannot consistently hear difference between the two clips. These two clips are both very enjoyable and emotional. Isn't better to showcase the difference using orchestral music given the claim that Bu2 improves on Dave alone over depth?

I don't understand how one can make the claim that Blu2 has more resolutions using these 2 clips. The music is simple acoustic and not a lot of instruments are simultaneously playing.


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## esimms86 (May 7, 2017)

hieukm said:


> Here is 2 clips of Dave vs Dave + Blue. Enjoy.



Hieukm, thanks for that amazing demo and thanks also for introducing me to Salena Jones' otherworldly vocal talents. The differences between the two demos played back through my iPad Air (not iPad Pro) speakers were not to my ears subtle in the least. The more expressive, highly nuanced and clear vocals and piano with Blu2 made the demos sound like two different recordings. It was as if one was a hi res audiophile recording and the other a much lower quality bootleg or MP3. I can't wait to receive word when Blu2 finally starts shipping in the US.


----------



## GryphonGuy

Bear in mind I am commenting from my cheap and non-hi-fi computer speakers.

In the first video, it sounded like a great depth difference between the voice and the piano with the piano being obviously behind the voice with some piano notes being muddied by a suspected automatic and varying microphone recording level.

The second video had much greater clarity with the piano notes NOT being muddied by anything and the voice seemingly being more textured (emotional is also another word that springs to mind). However the depth seemed to have collapsed with both the piano and voice being at the same depth BUT quite noticeably distinct from each other.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers
GG.


----------



## Deftone

Guys I think your getting a little too excited, yes it's the first comparison but step back a bit it was recorded on a smartphone... Do you really think the mic in it is good enough to properly record a Dave Vs Dave M Scalar comparison?


----------



## esimms86

Deftone said:


> Guys I think your getting a little too excited, yes it's the first comparison but step back a bit it was recorded on a smartphone... Do you really think the mic in it is good enough to properly record a Dave Vs Dave M Scalar comparison?


From a usefulness standpoint where the bar is, admittedly, set lower, yes. Optimally, no.


----------



## hieukm

It should be you are hearing the big differences despite it is recorded by the phone rather than the phone is not good enough to record and judge. 

The only variable here is M-Scaler, in and out of the recordings. The smartphone is not good enough to record then why are you hearing the differences.


----------



## jlbrach

adyc said:


> Yes. I need to have my ears checked. I cannot consistently hear difference between the two clips. These two clips are both very enjoyable and emotional. Isn't better to showcase the difference using orchestral music given the claim that Bu2 improves on Dave alone over depth?
> 
> I don't understand how one can make the claim that Blu2 has more resolutions using these 2 clips. The music is simple acoustic and not a lot of instruments are simultaneously playing.



I am shocked anyone could possibly use a clip played back on computer speakers for the most part and assume a person could make a judgment regarding the Dave vs Dave and Blu 2.....have we all lost our minds?


----------



## Rob Watts

Not only is it a low quality mic, but a simple ADC, then you have internet AAC compression too. Actually if somebody said a year ago that it would be possible to hear any differences at all via a mobile recording from a 164,000 tap WTA to a 1,000,000 tap WTA I would have said it would be absolutely impossible to hear anything at all.

Given that I know how big the M scaler effect is, I am amazed that one can hear it via a mobile phone recording.


----------



## Mediahound

Rob Watts said:


> Not only is it a low quality mic, but a simple ADC, then you have internet AAC compression too. Actually if somebody said a year ago that it would be possible to hear any differences at all via a mobile recording from a 164,000 tap WTA to a 1,000,000 tap WTA I would have said it would be absolutely impossible to hear anything at all.
> 
> Given that I know how big the M scaler effect is, I am amazed that one can hear it via a mobile phone recording.



These kinds of videos seem popular on YouTube, especially in Asia for some reason. Example, this person's channel is ONLY videos like this:



I don't see how anyone can tell much of the sound this way, but these videos seem popular.


----------



## EVOLVIST (May 7, 2017)

adyc said:


> Yes. I need to have my ears checked. I cannot consistently hear difference between the two clips. These two clips are both very enjoyable and emotional. Isn't better to showcase the difference using orchestral music given the claim that Bu2 improves on Dave alone over depth?
> 
> I don't understand how one can make the claim that Blu2 has more resolutions using these 2 clips. The music is simple acoustic and not a lot of instruments are simultaneously playing.



I'm sure the Blu2 has more resolution, but you're right, when they trot out these old chestnuts, with very sparase arrangements, it doesn't show much more than we already know, the less instruments the better it sounds, unless you have a super resolving DAC.

I would rather a lot of instruments getting down.  Let's see what its got!


----------



## Christer (May 8, 2017)

adyc said:


> Yes. I need to have my ears checked. I cannot consistently hear difference between the two clips. These two clips are both very enjoyable and emotional. Isn't better to showcase the difference using orchestral music given the claim that Bu2 improves on Dave alone over depth?
> 
> I don't understand how one can make the claim that Blu2 has more resolutions using these 2 clips. The music is simple acoustic and not a lot of instruments are simultaneously playing.


Once again a bit of education is needed I think.
I know there are quite a few here who don't like to be educated judging from some reactions posted when I tried to re-establish  the ultimate reference regarding HI FI.
I wonder how many  there are among those raving about these clips and differences between them actually realize that with both they are in fact listening to  recordings made with a completely different system than the ones portrayed in the clips.
Guys wake up! you are  listening to NEITHER DAVE NOR DAVE+Mscaler! But  recordings made of the two.
And played back via  yet another system.
The lack of references and sense of logic among some people here is sometimes absolutely appalling.


----------



## Christer

Mediahound said:


> These kinds of videos seem popular on YouTube, especially in Asia for some reason. Example, this person's channel is ONLY videos like this:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see how anyone can tell much of the sound this way, but these videos seem popular.




Of course you can't  but there seem to be  lots of fools who believe they can.
I don't often use the term LOL, but this time I just  can't resist.


----------



## hieukm

It is too amazed for me that some of you, include Rob, cant hear the difference between the 2 clips. As said above, i am not judging how good Dave or Dave + M-Scaler is. What i am judging is the difference between Dave vs Dave + M-Scaler through these clips. 

All of you can go on about all the technical details explaining that you cant hear difference through phone because phone mic is bad/internet compression/blah blah. But let me ask you if you have to choose between the 2 systems in 2 clips then which one would you choose?


----------



## Rob Watts

I can hear the difference between the two clips; what amazes me is that the M scaler difference is possible to hear via a mobile phone recording thru the internet! What I could hear was the change in the bass via the opening double bass; the improvement in refinement and warmth; and the sound-stage is a little better. Of course, in real life it was very much more pronounced.

Once the digital parts (notably the bi-directional USB) are working on Davina, I will be able to post clips, and this will give a much better rendition of the M scaler.


----------



## hieukm

Rob Watts said:


> I can hear the difference between the two clips; what amazes me is that the M scaler difference is possible to hear via a mobile phone recording thru the internet! What I could hear was the change in the bass via the opening double bass; the improvement in refinement and warmth; and the sound-stage is a little better. Of course, in real life it was very much more pronounced.
> 
> Once the digital parts (notably the bi-directional USB) are working on Davina, I will be able to post clips, and this will give a much better rendition of the M scaler.



Dear Rob,

Sorry for misunderstanding your message. I thought the bass and the voice was another league. The difference was so easy to detect.


----------



## adyc

hieukm said:


> It is too amazed for me that some of you, include Rob, cant hear the difference between the 2 clips. As said above, i am not judging how good Dave or Dave + M-Scaler is. What i am judging is the difference between Dave vs Dave + M-Scaler through these clips.
> 
> All of you can go on about all the technical details explaining that you cant hear difference through phone because phone mic is bad/internet compression/blah blah. But let me ask you if you have to choose between the 2 systems in 2 clips then which one would you choose?



I swear by the name of God. I can't choose which clip is better. I have listened in iPad Air and iMac. I simply can't. 

I want to make it clear I have Blu2 preorder. I am sure Blu2 is an improvement. Maybe you have golden ears. My ears are not sharp enough to say one is better than the other with these two clips.


----------



## rkt31

I have been recording hugo and mojo clips lately though mobile as well as Olympus ls100 hand held high resolution recorder . the clips have much better and expressive vocals than laptop or TV as source . it's like converting already recorded analog tape into digital by a high end ADC or by laptop adc.


----------



## Jawed

The comparison videos of DAVE versus M Scaler + DAVE are fascinating.

First, it's worth pointing out that the peak level in the first video, DAVE only, is 0.4dB louder than in the second video. I don't know how that difference has arisen - could M Scaler be quieter? Or is this just a side effect of room resonances being set off differently by the two configurations - M Scaler has a purer sound, less resonant? 

(When I compared TT versus DAVE, I found there's a sense that DAVE's sound is "less resonant" and relative amplitudes within a piece of music are more faithful to what's in the recording. TT sounds "random" especially as macro dynamics change - some of that is noise modulation I think, but sometimes the effect is disturbingly loud.)

Ignoring the 0.4dB difference, though, the piano sounds surprisingly different. It sounds a bit like it's a synthesiser in the DAVE video. For me, the difference in piano between the two videos is the hardest to ignore. DAVE alone is annoying in the way the piano sounds.

Just before she starts singing you can hear a creaking sound. I think it's the bass player's shoes. This is clearer in the DAVE video. It's really obvious in the "pure" version of this track that Light Man linked in post 8472.

Then as she sings the first line, "You don't bring me flowers" there's 3 clicking sounds. These sounds are in the "pure" video. These clicking sounds are heard again throughout the next few lines she sings, but start to get harder to hear.

On M Scaler these clicking sounds are really loud. On DAVE alone, they're much harder to hear. When I first heard this difference comparing the two videos, I thought it was someone in the room making sounds - e.g. tapping something. Then I heard them on the DAVE video as I listened more carefully. Then I checked the "pure" version, and there they are - it's not someone in the room making these sounds.

So, it's curious how the "bass player's shoes" are clearer on DAVE but the clicking sounds are clearer on M Scaler.

Overall there is definitely a sense of DAVE alone being clumsy and less real. It seems ridiculous, but M Scaler in this quick comparison reminds me of why DAVE is better than TT. It's exactly the same kind of improvement. It's oddly compelling. Or, put another way, DAVE alone sounds annoyingly broken compared with M Scaler. I've only had DAVE a few months but the deep satisfaction it brings in the way it plays music (compared with what I had living with TT) is exactly the kind of difference I'm feeling comparing these two videos.

It makes me contemplate this thing. But I did promise myself to wait until M Scaler + DAVE is integrated into a single box, a few years down the road (at a much lower price than these two boxes are right now). Hmm, maybe this video comparison is more dangerous than I was expecting...


----------



## icebear

Discussing sound differences based on a you tube video recorded with a cell phone ??
<facepalm>


----------



## Rob Watts

Jawed said:


> The comparison videos of DAVE versus M Scaler + DAVE are fascinating.
> 
> First, it's worth pointing out that the peak level in the first video, DAVE only, is 0.4dB louder than in the second video. I don't know how that difference has arisen - could M Scaler be quieter? Or is this just a side effect of room resonances being set off differently by the two configurations - M Scaler has a purer sound, less resonant?
> 
> ...



Actually the M scaler is 0.234 dB louder - as the WTA filter insertion loss is -2.766 dB, and Dave is manually increased on the volume by +3 dB.

As to waiting till M scaler is integrated into a DAC - well there are serious problems I need to solve to be able to do this; the ground current from the FPGA on the M scaler is too signal dependent and large at 10 A; previous experience has taught me that signal related ground currents do degrade THD and noise and upsets depth perception; so this is a massive problem to solve. Maybe I can think up a power balancing architecture on the DSP's; maybe I can filter the ground currents and isolate the analogue ground and digital grounds (this did not work in the past); maybe I could run split domains within the DAC and have galvanic isolation. I don't know how to solve these problems and guarantee complete isolation except for putting the M scaler in a separate unit. Galvanic isolation is (relatively) easy with a 16 FS signal - I just have two data lines to isolate. And it works; the first prototype M scaler did not have isolation, just RF filtering and the second unit did and that made quite a difference to the sound quality. The third or production unit was better again, with improved RF filtering on the isolation power supply and this too was very audible.

Of course, as FPGA's get better, the power loss gets less. So maybe in ten years time we can have an M scaler with a tenth of the core current from today. Fingers crossed... But can you wait ten years? I can't...


----------



## hieukm

Rob Watts said:


> Actually the M scaler is 0.234 dB louder - as the WTA filter insertion loss is -2.766 dB, and Dave is manually increased on the volume by +3 dB.
> 
> As to waiting till M scaler is integrated into a DAC - well there are serious problems I need to solve to be able to do this; the ground current from the FPGA on the M scaler is too signal dependent and large at 10 A; previous experience has taught me that signal related ground currents do degrade THD and noise and upsets depth perception; so this is a massive problem to solve. Maybe I can think up a power balancing architecture on the DSP's; maybe I can filter the ground currents and isolate the analogue ground and digital grounds (this did not work in the past); maybe I could run split domains within the DAC and have galvanic isolation. I don't know how to solve these problems and guarantee complete isolation except for putting the M scaler in a separate unit. Galvanic isolation is (relatively) easy with a 16 FS signal - I just have two data lines to isolate. And it works; the first prototype M scaler did not have isolation, just RF filtering and the second unit did and that made quite a difference to the sound quality. The third or production unit was better again, with improved RF filtering on the isolation power supply and this too was very audible.
> 
> Of course, as FPGA's get better, the power loss gets less. So maybe in ten years time we can have an M scaler with a tenth of the core current from today. Fingers crossed... But can you wait ten years? I can't...



Does this mean there will be continual revision to the M-Scaler?


----------



## hieukm

icebear said:


> Discussing sound differences based on a you tube video recorded with a cell phone ??
> <facepalm>



So you prefer meaningful descriptive discussion about sound?


----------



## jlbrach

Christer said:


> Once again a bit of education is needed I think.
> I know there are quite a few here who don't like to be educated judging from some reactions posted when I tried to re-establish  the ultimate reference regarding HI FI.
> I wonder how many  there are among those raving about these clips and differences between them actually realize that with both they are in fact listening to  recordings made with a completely different system than the ones portrayed in the clips.
> Guys wake up! you are  listening to NEITHER DAVE NOR DAVE+Mscaler! But  recordings made of the two.
> ...



Bingo


----------



## Triode User

hieukm said:


> Does this mean there will be continual revision to the M-Scaler?



No, read his words. He says there are issues to solved before an integrated Dave / M Scaler can be considered and that he doesn't have solutions to these issues at the moment nor is he on the brink of having solutions. Therefore he suggests not hanging back hoping that there will be a new M Scaler iteration soon because it is many years away.

Also, don't forget that Rob Watts has said several times that now that they have an M Scaler in production his attention is diverted to other projects such as the new digital amp and he does not envisage any work on any different M Scaler projects any time soon (apart from Davina).

Rob then goes on to say that developments in components will mean that the M Scaler can be changed / improved but that will be years away (he mentions 10 years).

That's my take on it.


----------



## raypin (May 9, 2017)

Mm...accept no substitute. Audition the equipment. I've heard the Blu 2 during CanJam Singapore. The LCD XC was breath-taking.

I wonder what I'll hear: Blu 2 + Dave + HE 1.


----------



## raypin (May 9, 2017)

Mm..what audio streamer are you guys using with your Dave? Preparng to dump my Surface Book and iPad Pro 12.9. Part of my prep work for the arrival of the one. Also in the process of upgrading my electrical equipment (power cables (nrg 10), line conditioner (monitor acoustics) , electrical outlet etc.). I'm good and ready with my interconnects (atlas asimi xlr and audioquest diamond usb).  Been thinking of the Aurender A10 since it MQA ready, Tidal ready etc. Any suggestions? TIA.


----------



## stvc (May 9, 2017)

raypin said:


> Mm..what audio streamer are you guys using with your Dave? Preparng to dump my Surface Book and iPad Pro 12.9. Part of my prep work for the arrival of the one. Also in the process of upgrading my electrical equipment (power cables (nrg 10), line conditioner (monitor acoustics) , electrical outlet etc.). I'm good and ready with my interconnects (atlas asimi xlr).  Been thinking of the Aurender A10 since it MQA ready, Tidal ready etc. Any suggestions? TIA.



https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/r...phile-vortex-box.787020/page-56#post-13449131

Get the sotm, we can compare it with micro rendu. From Singapore too


----------



## Triode User

raypin said:


> Mm..what audio streamer are you guys using with your Dave? Preparng to dump my Surface Book and iPad Pro 12.9. Part of my prep work for the arrival of the one. Also in the process of upgrading my electrical equipment (power cables (nrg 10), line conditioner (monitor acoustics) , electrical outlet etc.). I'm good and ready with my interconnects (atlas asimi xlr).  Been thinking of the Aurender A10 since it MQA ready, Tidal ready etc. Any suggestions? TIA.



I use an Auralic Aries with Tidal. I am currently testing a beta version of the firmware that has MQA unfolding. It seems to work well so I assume it will be released as a general firmware upgrade. I also like the Lightning DS app that also seems to work well.

I also use the Aries to listen to quite a bit of internet radio, mostly BBC Radio 3.


----------



## raypin (May 9, 2017)

Mm...I read somewhere that Auralic dumped MQA?? True or false. My requirements are simple. Tidal, full MQA, excellent digital output to my Dave (No damn treble glare), excellent iOS app to control everything and have wifi.


----------



## Triode User

raypin said:


> Mm...I read somewhere that Auralic dumped MQA?? True or false. My requirements are simple. Tidal, full MQA, excellent digital output to my Dave (No damn treble glare), excellent iOS app to control everything and have wifi.



That is (I am pretty sure) old news. 

The beta version of the Aries firmware was released in April this year has full MQA support.


----------



## JaZZ (May 9, 2017)

Rob Watts said:


> Of course, as FPGA's get better, the power loss gets less. So maybe in ten years time we can have an M scaler with a tenth of the core current from today. Fingers crossed... But can you wait ten years? I can't...


Ten years would indeed be too long. But remember that maybe next year or so Davina with integrated M-Scaler will hit the market, and it won't be long that there will be a stand-alone M-Scaler.


----------



## raypin (May 9, 2017)

Triode User said:


> That is (I am pretty sure) old news.
> 
> The beta version of the Aries firmware was released in April this year has full MQA support.



Mm..how is the pairing of your Aries with your DAVE? Much better than plain laptop? No issues? How is the SQ? As a standalone, how is the DAC/MQA output to your headphones? Sorry, I am not familiar with Auralic products.


----------



## Triode User

JaZZ said:


> Ten years would indeed be too long. But remember that maybe next year or so Davina with integrated M-Scaler will hit the market, and it won't be long that there will be a stand-alone M-Scaler.



I would have thought that a Davina would have less mass appeal than Blu2. After all, apart from recording studios, who really wants an analogue to digital convertor? The purchase price for a Davina might therefore have to be aimed quite high to recoup the development costs.

But then that's just me guessing.


----------



## theveterans

Triode User said:


> I would have thought that a Davina would have less mass appeal than Blu2. After all, apart from recording studios, who really wants an analogue to digital convertor? The purchase price for a Davina might therefore have to be aimed quite high to recoup the development costs.
> 
> But then that's just me guessing.



One who wants a glorified home studio that will get distributed on YouTube of course


----------



## ThatPhil

I believe Rob said davina will have the same inputs as dave and I wouldn't buy one if I couldn't use all my stuff with it.
also the ADC can be used to rip vinyl to digital.


----------



## 7ryder

raypin said:


> Mm..what audio streamer are you guys using with your Dave? Preparng to dump my Surface Book and iPad Pro 12.9. Part of my prep work for the arrival of the one. Also in the process of upgrading my electrical equipment (power cables (nrg 10), line conditioner (monitor acoustics) , electrical outlet etc.). I'm good and ready with my interconnects (atlas asimi xlr and audioquest diamond usb).  Been thinking of the Aurender A10 since it MQA ready, Tidal ready etc. Any suggestions? TIA.



I use the SOtM sMS-200 w/ the new tx-USBUltra between it and DAVE. the USBUltra made a big difference in lower end impact and improved clarity w/ my speaker system. Others have found the same...there is a thread about it over at CA. 

As for the Aurender A10, that is a streamer w/ a built in DAC. If you have DAVE already, you don't need it.


----------



## raypin (May 9, 2017)

Mm..except if it is an MQA-capable DAC (Dave is not), so I  can use it as standalone mqa dac. Two-birds with one stone. Streamer to dave to HP or  mqa dac streamer to HP. I need the flexibility.


----------



## Triode User

raypin said:


> Mm..except if it is an MQA-capable DAC (Dave is not), so I  can use it as standalone mqa dac. Two-birds with one stone. Streamer to dave to HP or  mqa dac streamer to HP. I need the flexibility.


 
Not quite sure why you are so entranced with MQA but if you want it then use the Aries.


----------



## Triode User

raypin said:


> Mm..how is the pairing of your Aries with your DAVE? Much better than plain laptop? No issues? How is the SQ? As a standalone, how is the DAC/MQA output to your headphones? Sorry, I am not familiar with Auralic products.



I dont have a laptop but I do have an imac which is within usb cable length of the Dave. However, I prefer to keep the steaming separate to the iMac. I have no issues at all with the Aries. I cant say it is much better but then I need a whole dose of convincing that there isnt a load of expectation bias when trying different streaming methods. I just find the Aries very very convenient.


----------



## Triode User

ThatPhil said:


> I believe Rob said davina will have the same inputs as dave and I wouldn't buy one if I couldn't use all my stuff with it.
> also the ADC can be used to rip vinyl to digital.



I cant recollect a full description of what the Davina function will be. I know it will be an analogue to digital and will also have MScaler but will it need to output to a Dave or similar to complete the dac function?

Have you seen a full list of what Davina will do?

If Rob Watts says he has problems putting an M Scaler in the same box as Dave then presumably the same applies with Davina and therefore the Dave function has to be in a separate box?


----------



## raypin

Triode User said:


> Not quite sure why you are so entranced with MQA but if you want it then use the Aries.



mm..not exactly entranced but I love to cover all my bases. Measure twice, cut once. Have not really made up my mind. I was watching this lecture (on youtube) about the Blu II. I could conceivably go back to the CD - upscale it via Blu 2 - Dave - special HP or laptop - Blu 2 (does it upscale as well????) - Dave - special HP. I'm not too thrilled about going back to CD. It is a physical nuisance (search for the right CD, open CD case, put CD, play CD, play the whole damn CD,  then repeat it a thousand times. Arrrghhh!). It is the reason why I never went vinyl (which is a thousand times worse).


----------



## onsionsi

raypin said:


> mm..not exactly entranced but I love to cover all my bases. Measure twice, cut once. Have not really made up my mind. I was watching this lecture (on youtube) about the Blu II. I could conceivably go back to the CD - upscale it via Blu 2 - Dave - special HP or laptop - Blu 2 (does it upscale as well????) - Dave - special HP. I'm not too thrilled about going back to CD. It is a physical nuisance (search for the right CD, open CD case, put CD, play CD, play the whole damn CD,  then repeat it a thousand times. Arrrghhh!). It is the reason why I never went vinyl (which is a thousand times worse).



Can you post the link for lecture of Blu2  in YouTube


----------



## raypin

mm...sure, no prob. It is a short lecture in Taiwan sponsored by Join Audio:


----------



## Jawed (May 9, 2017)

Rob Watts said:


> Actually the M scaler is 0.234 dB louder - as the WTA filter insertion loss is -2.766 dB, and Dave is manually increased on the volume by +3 dB.


Hmm, interesting. I'm going to assume that it's just "resonances and randomness". A glance at the waveform in Audacity appeared to indicate that relative peaks in different parts of the two videos (for the same parts of the music) are different. Another variable I can think of is automatic gain control in the camera/phone that was used to make the videos ...



> As to waiting till M scaler is integrated into a DAC - well there are serious problems I need to solve to be able to do this; the ground current from the FPGA on the M scaler is too signal dependent and large at 10 A; previous experience has taught me that signal related ground currents do degrade THD and noise and upsets depth perception; so this is a massive problem to solve. Maybe I can think up a power balancing architecture on the DSP's; maybe I can filter the ground currents and isolate the analogue ground and digital grounds (this did not work in the past); maybe I could run split domains within the DAC and have galvanic isolation. I don't know how to solve these problems and guarantee complete isolation except for putting the M scaler in a separate unit. Galvanic isolation is (relatively) easy with a 16 FS signal - I just have two data lines to isolate. And it works; the first prototype M scaler did not have isolation, just RF filtering and the second unit did and that made quite a difference to the sound quality. The third or production unit was better again, with improved RF filtering on the isolation power supply and this too was very audible.


How about a dual-FPGA configuration: M Scaler running on a huge, noisy FPGA galvanically isolated from 256FS WTA and 2048FS linear interpolation feeding 350dB-resolution noise shaper running on the FPGA from Hugo 2? Perhaps use two switched mode power supplies, one for the digital and one for the "analogue" side.

Hugo 2 is probably a lot better after a mere 3 years than I think many people could have expected in their wildest dreams. I say this without having heard it, but Hugo 2 is no mere incremental upgrade over Hugo judging by its constituent parts. I think Chord is about to drop another bomb on the hi-fi industry, like Hugo did originally. Bonkers value for money 



> Of course, as FPGA's get better, the power loss gets less. So maybe in ten years time we can have an M scaler with a tenth of the core current from today. Fingers crossed... But can you wait ten years? I can't...


Well, I bought DAVE because I decided not to wait for DAVE performance to come down to Mojo price. TT was wildly better than I thought it could be, it was where I started with Chord's modern DACs. I owned TT for just over a year and I bought it originally thinking it would be enough for a decade. But it was a new kind of musical world, which became more and more evident as I lived with it and so I decided DAVE was worth investigating.

Now playing: Supersilent - 1.2


----------



## thisisvv

First time owner of DAVE. Took some time to get the funds together and today first time i understood  what people mean when they say, i am finding new stuff on songs i used to listen. Some of the songs i felt just totally are changed. 

BTW i am coming from Yggdrasil which was fed by Rednet3 with Mutech usb -3. Dave is just connected directly through my laptop and to my ears there is no comparison. Again  YMMV


----------



## Crgreen

I've had my DAVE for about a year now, and I continue to be surprised about the quality of audio information revealed and how coherently it's presented, with recordings old and new, including some going back to the 1930s. With some it's like having a layer of yellowing varnish removed.


----------



## Triode User

Crgreen said:


> I've had my DAVE for about a year now, and I continue to be surprised about the quality of audio information revealed and how coherently it's presented, with recordings old and new, including some going back to the 1930s. With some it's like having a layer of yellowing varnish removed.





thisisvv said:


> First time owner of DAVE. Took some time to get the funds together and today first time i understood  what people mean when they say, i am finding new stuff on songs i used to listen. Some of the songs i felt just totally are changed.
> BTW i am coming from Yggdrasil which was fed by Rednet3 with Mutech usb -3. Dave is just connected directly through my laptop and to my ears there is no comparison. Again  YMMV



I have really bad news for you guys.

The Blu2 with MScaler adds the same amount of sound improvement to the Dave as the Dave does itself.

Start saving again!!

And in the meantime enjoy the Dave.


----------



## Crgreen

I've just ordered and paid for a Blu II, so I hope you're right. Good news, not bad.


----------



## Triode User

Crgreen said:


> I've just ordered and paid for a Blu II, so I hope you're right. Good news, not bad.



Don't worry you will be very very pleased,

Out of interest, which country are you in and what delivery timescale were you quoted?


----------



## Crgreen

U.K., like you. Delivery expected in three to four weeks. I've also ordered the BNC cables you're using on the footing that I know they'll work.


----------



## thisisvv

curios how people connect to dave, i am using an old laptop. People have NUC , fanless or what config you use.

Also did anyone find any benefits to use hqplyaer and pass each file as dsd512, did some one find any improvements.


----------



## x RELIC x

thisisvv said:


> curios how people connect to dave, i am using an old laptop. People have NUC , fanless or what config you use.
> 
> Also did anyone find any benefits to use hqplyaer and pass each file as dsd512, did some one find any improvements.



Do not convert PCM to DSD and it's not recommended to upsample PCM before sending the data to the DAVE. Just send the data bit-perfect, as it is, and let the DAVE do its job without the inferior upsampling or conversion by other software.


----------



## thisisvv

So any special pc recomenddd , I need rooon and tidal to be played ataleast


----------



## Sunya

Rob, could you say what is the cause of the high frequency noise that JA measured on top of the signal in the Stereophile review? Puzzling that it didn't dissapear even with the HF filter turned on.


----------



## Crgreen

Interesting review of the DAVE in Stereophile, though I'm still not quite sure what to make of it. It would seem that JA listened to it in digital preamp mode throughout.


----------



## rkt31

any link of Dave's review by stereophile ?


----------



## ecwl

Hmmmm... I'm guessing Sunya is referring to ringing which is a consequence of a long tap length filter fed an "illegal" signal. Not sure.

anyway, I was wondering why John Atkinson wasn't raving about DAVE's superior timing/transients. And then re-reading the review, I realized he paired it with the MBL C15 class D amplifier, which probably switches at 500kHz or less, negating some of DAVE advantages. At least JA loves DAVE and thought it measures phenomenally well.


----------



## Rob Watts

Sunya said:


> Rob, could you say what is the cause of the high frequency noise that JA measured on top of the signal in the Stereophile review? Puzzling that it didn't dissapear even with the HF filter turned on.



Yes that had JA and myself very puzzled. Just to make 100% sure it was not the unit, I got the unit back, and using the APx555 I got exactly this measurement:



 

Which of course is the usual perfect response.
JA put forward the view that it might be EMC within his lab being aliased down with the AP that he is using. He said that he had had some EMC issues in the past. Certainly the noise you can see is not HF, it is within the audio bandwidth. My thinking is that it is aliasing on the ADC's used within his AP; older AP's were very sensitive to this. You have no chance of measuring Dave's performance unless you use an APx555; even then, you are partially limited by the ADC's employed within the APx555.

One of the benefits of the Davina project is that we will be able to resolve these measuring issues, as my ADC topology has zero noise floor modulation, and around 15 dB lower noise than conventional high performance ADC's.

Rob


----------



## Jawed

Does Stereophile publish a manufacturer's comments on a review in the printed magazine? Or do this feedback only appear on the website?

Now playing: Sex Mob - Sign 'o' the Times


----------



## Deftone

Rob Watts said:


> Yes that had JA and myself very puzzled. Just to make 100% sure it was not the unit, I got the unit back, and using the APx555 I got exactly this measurement:
> 
> 
> Which of course is the usual perfect response.
> ...



Rob are your custom fpga dac designs advancing faster than the ADC techology in the AP machines and does this mean although you may make much better dacs in the future you may not be able to measure the perfomance? 

Hope this makes sense, im not smart engineer type guy like some others on the thread im just a music lover.


----------



## Rob Watts

An ADC actually contains a DAC. Indeed, a delta sigma noise shaper can be set up as a DAC (digital integrators) or an ADC (analogue integrators) but they both have an identical DAC section. It's the poor quality of the DAC within the ADC that principally limits ADC performance.

Sure more accurate measurements will help future DAC designs, and I will have more certainty - which is always a good thing.


----------



## AndrewC88

Jawed said:


> Does Stereophile publish a manufacturer's comments on a review in the printed magazine? Or do this feedback only appear on the website?



Yes they do, a "Manufacturer's Comments" section. In some instances, they even have a "Follow-Up" review.

That said, in the case of the DAVE review, I didn't think the issue was serious enough to warrant either. In fact, the high-frequency interference in the low-level undithered signal reproduction graphs cannot be seen clearly in the published review (not to mention the 24bit signal graph was not even included in the published measurements).


----------



## Sunya

ray-dude said:


> I'm about 6 hours into auditioning an AHB2 with DAVE and B&W 802d3's (vs Classe CT-2300 amp + Oppo HA-1).



Any update on the DAVE-AHB2 matchup?


----------



## paulchiu

I was pleasantly surprised to receive the June Stereophile today with Chord DAVE on the cover.  I have been using the DAVE for 15 months.  While John Atkinson (Editor of Stereophile) gave DAVE a fair report, I sensed he had difficulty praising the uber Chord DAC even more, especially those more than twice the current price of the DAVE.  ( I noticed the magazine posted the DAVE at $10,588 USD.  That's a lot less than what we paid last year.  Thank you Brexit.)
Atkinson did not write about how great the DAVE is as a headphone amp, that was disappointing.
Very likely, DAVE will be included in the prestigious Stereophile A rated components in October, maybe even A+.


----------



## maxh22

If anybody wants to read the review I found it online. Enjoyed the read for sure.

https://psv4.userapi.com/c812527/u4...hTau7rax1zktF93oLLmC3N76whHf0Pnan7gCUBLGv4NbE


----------



## x RELIC x

Page not found....


----------



## Crgreen

And of course, there's the MQA "issue". I'm unsure - is it the next big thing, or are we still being told that it's going to be?


----------



## maxh22 (May 13, 2017)

x RELIC x said:


> Page not found....



Page 51. The webpage might take some time to load the whole pdf.


----------



## x RELIC x

maxh22 said:


> Page 51. The webpage might take some time to load the whole pdf.



This is where it takes me, but I'm on my iPad right now.


----------



## maxh22

That's weird, loads for me.

I uploaded the file to mediafire which will work 100%.

https://www.mediafire.com/?qg4lc9j5q3ge9ew


----------



## Malcyg

x RELIC x said:


> This is where it takes me, but I'm on my iPad right now.



Same here, I'm on iPad also.


----------



## Malcyg

Crgreen said:


> And of course, there's the MQA "issue". I'm unsure - is it the next big thing, or are we still being told that it's going to be?



I'm taking the view that MQA is irrelevant with Dave and, especially, with Blu II. In any event, it isn't something that I am going to change course over.


----------



## maxh22

@x RELIC x @Malcyg does the Mediafire link work?


----------



## onsionsi (May 13, 2017)

maxh22 said:


> @x RELIC x @Malcyg does the Mediafire link work?


Yes the Mediafire line work, thanks.
I'm on my iPad also.


----------



## x RELIC x

maxh22 said:


> @x RELIC x @Malcyg does the Mediafire link work?



Much appreciated.


----------



## raypin (May 13, 2017)

Mm..bottom-line conclusion is his recommendation to just audition it????? That's it? Interesting to note that the differences between the Chord Dave and the much more expensive Meridian are nuanced, except for Meridian support for MQA (which may or may not be widely adopted).

Given that, what is interesting to note is what was left unsaid (or unwritten): that the DAVE can perform as good or nearly as good as a DAC that cost twice as much,  making it the better value proposition (if you are looking for an end-game DAC).


----------



## ray-dude

Sunya said:


> Any update on the DAVE-AHB2 matchup?



I found it to be an outstanding match to the DAVE. Like others, it took some listening to adjust to the amp (similar experience to what I had when I first got my Mojo). After a couple days, going back to my classe 2300 felt off. 

With my B&w 802d3's it felt like some particular transients were getting capped off. I switched to bridges mode (300w vs 100w) and spent several hours doing A/B testing between 100W into a single speaker vs 300W into a single speaker (SPL matched of course). When running bridged mode, any capping disappeared and the amp felt remarkably neutral and transparent

My hypothesis is that my speakers required more umph for particular sequences in particular frequency ranges where they are more challenging (the amp is strictly limited to 100W in stereo config)

I would be delighted with two mono amps in my setup. I have not yet decided whether to make the jump, but may hold off and wait for the chord digital amps. It was very very hard to return the unit I had for eval, and I may not be patient to wait   That long. 

I highly recommend giving it an audition in your setup. Well worth the effort.


----------



## Malcyg (May 14, 2017)

maxh22 said:


> @x RELIC x @Malcyg does the Mediafire link work?




Yes, that works, thank you.

Interesting review. Given the price of the Meridien, it would interesting to review a Blu II and Dave combination which still comes in at $3,000 less than the Meridien. It seems the two were so close that the Chord combi should surely be clearly ahead one would expect/hope.

I had a Chord DSX1000 prior to Dave which had Ethernet in and I would ideally have liked Dave to have had an Ethernet input but it is relatively trivial to add a mRendu or similar, so it's certainly not a potential deal breaker as the reviewer suggests.

It seems that MQA may be going the software decoding route after all, presumably given the relative resistance by hardware manufacturers and consumers alike so far. I admit that I haven't heard MQA, but I'm really not that bothered and I'm certainly not going to swap my DAC because of it. After 20 years of chasing the promises made by digital, I am finally very content with my system with Dave at the heart and I am greatly looking forward to what Blu II might add.


----------



## esimms86 (May 14, 2017)

raypin said:


> Mm..bottom-line conclusion is his recommendation to just audition it????? That's it? Interesting to note that the differences between the Chord Dave and the much more expensive Meridian are nuanced, except for Meridian support for MQA (which may or may not be widely adopted).
> 
> Given that, what is interesting to note is what was left unsaid (or unwritten): that the DAVE can perform as good or nearly as good as a DAC that cost twice as much,  making it the better value proposition (if you are looking for an end-game DAC).


I found the review to be intriguing and, ultimately, disappointing. JA is obviously a big fan of MQA. He has never made an attempt to hide this fact. OK, well enough. However, why compare a non-MQA DAC with an MQA one? Does he plan to do this with every DAC for the foreseeable future? Given that most DACs don't support MQA, this is, in my view, a ridiculous approach to take. I would have been much happier to see Dave compared to the best non-MQA DAC that JA knows of, even allowing for the obvious complaint about comparing a $10,000 DAC with an X thousand dollar one. For example, having read JA's glowing review of the Berkeley Audio Design Reference, I would be interested in reading a comparison between the Reference and Dave. 

Otherwise, the simple fact is, for the majority of Dave owners MQA isn't even on their radar. I look forward to the day that Dave/Blu2 reviews start appearing in the audiophile press. Even more so, I look forward to the day, hopefully coming very, very soon, when Blu2 arrives on my doorstep.


----------



## Silvertone4

Rob Watts said:


> Yes that had JA and myself very puzzled. Just to make 100% sure it was not the unit, I got the unit back, and using the APx555 I got exactly this measurement:
> 
> 
> Which of course is the usual perfect response.
> ...




Thanks, Rob.

Did you also get a chance to look into the noisy sine wave he mentioned with 24-bit undithered data?


----------



## Silvertone4 (May 14, 2017)

esimms86 said:


> I found the review to be intriguing and, ultimately, disappointing. JA is obviously a big fan of MQA. He has never made an attempt to hide this fact. OK, well enough. However, why compare a non-MQA DAC with an MQA one? Does he plan to do this with every DAC for the foreseeable future? Given that most DACs don't support MQA, this is, in my view, a ridiculous approach to take. I would have been much happier to see Dave compared to the best non-MQA DAC that JA knows of, even allowing for the obvious complaint about comparing a $10,000 DAC with an X thousand dollar one. For example, having read JA's glowing review of the Berkeley Audio Design Reference, I would be interested in reading a comparison between the Reference and Dave.
> 
> Otherwise, the simple fact is, for the majority of Dave owners MQA isn't even on their radar. I look forward to the day that Dave/Blu2 reviews start appearing in the audiophile press. Even more so, I look forward to the day, hopefully coming very, very soon, when Blu2 arrives on my doorstep.




This was one of the most head-scratching reviews I have seen from JA.


It was as if the underlying focus of the review was to somehow justify that the dCS and Meridian DACs were better because of MQA support.  I've heard the Meridian dacs before, they sound mechanical and they lack fluidity, the DAVE smokes it hands down.  And I do have a reference system to make that statement.

Then he throws the statement that since those are 5 figure DACs then obviously they have to be better, he didn't put it exactly this way but this is what he was conveying.

Very mediocre and questionable  review in opinion, he was definitely impressed with the DAVE sound, but since he had to justify the other expensive DACs, he started mentioning the lack of Ethernet port and MQA support and made that a focal point of the review.


----------



## raypin (May 14, 2017)

Mm...had me scratching my noggin' a little bit. Ethernet? Is that mandatory to build a reference system?


----------



## Imusicman

I'd like to hear more from owners how they are feeding music to the Dave to get the best SQ. Im using USB from my iMac and to me it sounds great but I often here reference to NAS or Steamers in the chain. Is this considered to be better? if so, why?


----------



## Crgreen

There are hundreds of ways to slice that particular cake, each with their respective advocates. USB is generally regarded as the best input to DAVE (apart from the new Blu 2 dual BNC connections). My advice is that if a connection from your iMac sounds great, stick with that, sit back and enjoy the music, and don't worry about the miriad ways you can store, transmit and control music files. You might want to add an Audioquest Jitterbug however, as they're cheap and can help reduce or eliminate RF being passed from your computer to the DAVE.


----------



## EVOLVIST

ray-dude said:


> I found it to be an outstanding match to the DAVE. Like others, it took some listening to adjust to the amp (similar experience to what I had when I first got my Mojo). After a couple days, going back to my classe 2300 felt off.
> 
> With my B&w 802d3's it felt like some particular transients were getting capped off. I switched to bridges mode (300w vs 100w) and spent several hours doing A/B testing between 100W into a single speaker vs 300W into a single speaker (SPL matched of course). When running bridged mode, any capping disappeared and the amp felt remarkably neutral and transparent
> 
> ...



How big is you room, though? I felt for my 12x12x8 room that 100w was way enough to handle anything I thew at it. 

That said, I haven't tried it with my new DAC yet.


----------



## tunes (May 14, 2017)

tunes said:


> Linn Klimax DS Digital Streamer costs about $23,000 and the DAC incorporated also up samples the digital data for better sound.    How does this differ from what is done in the Dave and is it that much better?  Can the DAVE serve as a DAC for streaming from TIDAL??



Trying to understand "the Blu MkII’s sophisticated WTA (Watts Transient Alignment) filtering and upscaling algorithms can output digital data at 705.6kHz (16 x CD’s 44.1kHz native resolution). When partnered with the critically acclaimed DAVE DAC/preamp, with its 705.6kHz-capable digital inputs, the Blu MkII sets a new technical benchmark for CD performance, while redefining sound quality from the medium."  So still don't understand why the CD spinner exists.   Why not just apply the filtering/up scaling to FLAC files and get away from CDs.  Why couldn't this just become the DAVE2? Would probably be better than the Linn Klimax DS Digital Streamer and a few thousand dollars less expensive with an all on one solution. The convenience of digital files and streaming makes the CD transport an anachronism in my opinion.


----------



## ray-dude

EVOLVIST said:


> How big is you room, though? I felt for my 12x12x8 room that 100w was way enough to handle anything I thew at it.
> 
> That said, I haven't tried it with my new DAC yet.



My room is 24x20 with a vaulted ceiling, but my experience is similar to yours.  I was easily able to drive my B&W 802d3's to extremely loud levels when in 2 channel mode with the amp (100W/channel).  You had to really push it to get the clipping lights to kick in.  At 300W into a single speaker, I was able to push to clipping but had to cover my ears to do so.  Plenty of juice at 100W to drive the 802D3's (on average)

My hypothesis (unproven) is that my speakers have a couple key frequency ranges where they are quite challenging to drive.  While 100W was more than adequate across the range, my hypothesis is that the tracks that had passages that felt topped off or limited were tickling these more challenging bands at 100W.  At 300W, there was plenty of headroom to deal with the transients.

The AHB2 is a remarkable amp though.  I hadn't realized what quiet noise floor is until I heard this amp.  Absolutely clean and FAST, and I love the size and how cool it runs.  It is highly regulated to 100W though (to avoid distortion), so huge transients could get clipped. In my setup, it really was only particular passages in particular songs where I heard the (seeming) compression.  The rest of the experience was so delightful that it did make me sit up and take notice though.  I suspect this is one of those situations where the amp/speaker synergy is key.  

To get back on topic though, the pairing with the DAVE was outstanding, esp. with the RCA outputs on the DAVE (better than the XLR),  I am seriously considering getting a pair of AHB2s as bridge amps until Rob's amps are on the scene (ideally 100-150W range).  I'm weighing that vs sinking the same $$ into a Blu2 or Davina, and being happy with my Classe 2300 for the next couple years.

As alway, rarified 1st world problems to have...


----------



## Rob Watts

Silvertone4 said:


> Thanks, Rob.
> 
> Did you also get a chance to look into the noisy sine wave he mentioned with 24-bit undithered data?


Yes it was normal - no significant noise present.


----------



## Deftone

tunes said:


> Trying to understand "the Blu MkII’s sophisticated WTA (Watts Transient Alignment) filtering and upscaling algorithms can output digital data at 705.6kHz (16 x CD’s 44.1kHz native resolution). When partnered with the critically acclaimed DAVE DAC/preamp, with its 705.6kHz-capable digital inputs, the Blu MkII sets a new technical benchmark for CD performance, while redefining sound quality from the medium."  So still don't understand why the CD spinner exists.   Why not just apply the filtering/up scaling to FLAC files and get away from CDs.  Why couldn't this just become the DAVE2? Would probably be better than the Linn Klimax DS Digital Streamer and a few thousand dollars less expensive with an all on one solution. The convenience of digital files and streaming makes the CD transport an anachronism in my opinion.



Blu2 and Dave cant be combined in to one unit.


----------



## raypin (May 14, 2017)

Mm...so, if you use the Blu II's USB input, will the unit upscale FLACs as well as when using CD tracks??? Or does it only work with CDs? Same question for Tidal and other digital source offering CD-quality audio tracks. Tia.


----------



## Malcyg

raypin said:


> Mm...so, if you use the Blu II's USB input, will the unit upscale FLACs as well as when using CD tracks??? Or does it only work with CDs? Same question for Tidal and other digital source offering CD-quality audio tracks. Tia.




Yes, it will upscale whatever you feed into the USB and BNC inputs as well as the CD - so effectively it is a 3 source scaler. That is plenty enough for me with the bonus of allowing me to remove the CD transport that I have, so I don't need an extra shelf on the rack. In that respect, the CD player is actually a bonus.


----------



## raypin

Mm...thanks for confirming.  I'd like to stay away from CDs as much as possible.


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> Trying to understand "the Blu MkII’s sophisticated WTA (Watts Transient Alignment) filtering and upscaling algorithms can output digital data at 705.6kHz (16 x CD’s 44.1kHz native resolution). When partnered with the critically acclaimed DAVE DAC/preamp, with its 705.6kHz-capable digital inputs, the Blu MkII sets a new technical benchmark for CD performance, while redefining sound quality from the medium."  So still don't understand why the CD spinner exists.   Why not just apply the filtering/up scaling to FLAC files and get away from CDs.  Why couldn't this just become the DAVE2? Would probably be better than the Linn Klimax DS Digital Streamer and a few thousand dollars less expensive with an all on one solution. The convenience of digital files and streaming makes the CD transport an anachronism in my opinion.



Rob Watts has been very clear in his explanations that with components currently available the Dave cannot be incorporated in the same case as the MScaler. So for a few years at least it is always going to be a two case set up. 

Blu2 was always going to be a CD transport and the MScaler was an added bonus. Also, don't forget that there is a sizable number of us that DO use CDs as well as streamed music.


----------



## Malcyg

Triode User said:


> Rob Watts has been very clear in his explanations that with components currently available the Dave cannot be incorporated in the same case as the MScaler. So for a few years at least it is always going to be a two case set up.
> 
> Blu2 was always going to be a CD transport and the MScaler was an added bonus. Also, don't forget that there is a sizable number of us that DO use CDs as well as streamed music.



Yes, and it was originally planned without a USB input. That was changed, I believe, after feedback from forum users. Without USB in, it would be far less desirable and I probably would have passed and waited it out.

I understand why some (maybe many) would prefer a stand alone M Scaler, that was my first reaction as well, and I'm sure that a standalone, multi input M Scaler will come along at some point, but I don't believe it will be much different in price to the Blu II. As it stands now with USB, BNC and CD sources, it is quite flexible already and for some, like me, the CD is a bonus as it enables case count to be maintained rather than increased. I reckon CD probably accounts for less than 5% of my total music playing time, but it's a nice option to retain and one I want to keep.


----------



## rkt31

read the review of Dave in stereophile. JA preferring minimum phase and short reconstruction filter over the years  is totally opposite to the philosophy of accurate reconstruction of transients by rob watts. short filter length though gives less ringing but the signal itself for testing is not legal signal. glad that JA recognized the importance of long tap lengths through Dave. now question is, what would be the impression of JA for m scalar of blu mk2 which uses 1m taps.


----------



## strangecargo

ray-dude said:


> I found it to be an outstanding match to the DAVE. Like others, it took some listening to adjust to the amp (similar experience to what I had when I first got my Mojo). After a couple days, going back to my classe 2300 felt off.
> 
> With my B&w 802d3's it felt like some particular transients were getting capped off. I switched to bridges mode (300w vs 100w) and spent several hours doing A/B testing between 100W into a single speaker vs 300W into a single speaker (SPL matched of course). When running bridged mode, any capping disappeared and the amp felt remarkably neutral and transparent
> 
> ...



I'm currently demoing an AHB2 and I agree that it's definitely worth an audition for DAVE owners. In my own experience, it's a very good match for Dynaudio Contour 30s, but seems to be a little polite sounding and light on dynamics when driving Sonus Faber Amati Futuras. I haven't tried bridged mode because the AHB2 is only rated down to 6Ω when bridged, and both pairs of speakers are rated at 4Ω.


----------



## Crgreen

rkt31 said:


> read the review of Dave in stereophile. JA preferring minimum phase and short reconstruction filter over the years  is totally opposite to the philosophy of accurate reconstruction of transients by rob watts. short filter length though gives less ringing but the signal itself for testing is not legal signal. glad that JA recognized the importance of long tap lengths through Dave. now question is, what would be the impression of JA for m scalar of blu mk2 which uses 1m taps.



Given how long it took Stereophile to review the DAVE, we might be waiting a while for a review of that combo. But who knows, JA might have been sufficiently intrigued to request a Blu 2 asap, though he makes no mention of such matters in his review.


----------



## Light - Man

Who gives a flying fluff what JA from StereoSchitt or any others think, all that really matters is whether the individual owner likes it.

I have given up on taking any review too seriously as a reviewer can always find something to nitpick about and on the other hand they also seem to conveniently fail to mention obvious flaws in a product - if they so wish!

p.s. I have never heard the Dave and may likely never do so, living on a small Island off the coast of Brexit.


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## rkt31 (May 15, 2017)

.


----------



## rkt31

no magazine would dare to say that a DAC at a fraction of cost is better than some $25 k or more expensive DAC due to obvious reasons.


----------



## Crgreen

rkt31 said:


> no magazine would dare to say that a DAC at a fraction of cost is better than some $25 k or more expensive DAC due to obvious reasons.



Hi Fi Plus did when reviewing the DAVE.


----------



## Hummer25

I have been listening to DAVE  for about 3-4 months having previously been accustomed to listening to Hugo. I have not read every post on this thread but I am sure there are many reviews of DAVE and its capabilities so i wont say too much.

I believe DAVE  delivers a massive leap of SQ  beyond what I have previously heard from any DAC. My initial reaction was how smooth DAVE sounded with a much greater depth to the soundstage with instruments  much better placed with sonic dimentionality I had only heard on vinyl. Bass was  much better resolved and  transient information exceptionally good. Recordings of all resolutions and bit rate were laid bare and well mastered material sounded stunning. I dont believe high resolution material has any advantage unless it was mastered well. Many 16 bit rips from well mastered material could sound stunning and in some cases were better than some 24bit recordings. I gave up on the whole DSD / 24 bit / 16 bit stuff and simply evaluated material that was just mastered well. 

Last week I was fortunate enough to hear Blu 2 with the M scaler hooked up to DAVE and I though I would share my thoughts. Personally i think  a CD based system is going slightly sideways or backwards but hey folk have loads of CD's.
First of all I listened to a CD straight without going the the M scaler and it sounded OK but once it had been upscaled the difference was astonishing. The step up BLu 2 and M scaler brings to digital is not as great as when I first heard DAVE but none the less it is a big leap forward.

 The main aspects I noticed through this system hooked to DAVE were an even smoother performance with a massive soundstage both width and depth, far greater than DAVE alone.. Bass was more articulate and deeper. The whole sonic experience for me now sounds like analogue on mastertape. That is how it came across to me. No digital artifacts at all. It was not like listening to a digital system, more analogue in its smoothness and delivery.One aspect I noted, I could listen at very high volume levels for long periods without any fatigue at all. Audio recordings through this system are remarkable and move the digital experience to another level.


----------



## Malcyg

Hummer25 said:


> Last week I was fortunate enough to hear Blu 2 with the M scaler hooked up to DAVE and I though I would share my thoughts. Personally i think  a CD based system is going slightly sideways or backwards but hey folk have loads of CD's.
> First of all I listened to a CD straight without going the the M scaler and it sounded OK but once it had been upscaled the difference was astonishing. The step up BLu 2 and M scaler brings to digital is not as great as when I first heard DAVE but none the less it is a big leap forward.
> 
> The main aspects I noticed through this system hooked to DAVE were an even smoother performance with a massive soundstage both width and depth, far greater than DAVE alone.. Bass was more articulate and deeper. The whole sonic experience for me now sounds like analogue on mastertape. That is how it came across to me. No digital artifacts at all. It was not like listening to a digital system, more analogue in its smoothness and delivery.One aspect I noted, I could listen at very high volume levels for long periods without any fatigue at all. Audio recordings through this system are remarkable and move the digital experience to another level.



Great to hear. I believe that first units should ship in UK this week. I look forward to getting mine given your reaction. Your description is exactly what I was hoping for and expecting given Rob's comments anyway. I'm still slightly apprehensive as I have not heard the Blu/Dave combination, but he was right about Dave so I trust him on this one.


----------



## Triode User

Malcyg said:


> Great to hear. I believe that first units should ship in UK this week. I look forward to getting mine given your reaction. Your description is exactly what I was hoping for and expecting given Rob's comments anyway. I'm still slightly apprehensive as I have not heard the Blu/Dave combination, but he was right about Dave so I trust him on this one.



I have had my Blu2 for two weeks now. I suspect mine was one of the first batch of units in the UK. My experience is the same as Hummer25 except that I think that the Blu2 possibly adds as much again to the sound as when I upgraded from the HugoTT to the Dave.

A friend is coming over tomorrow morning with a clutch of CDs that he knows and loves under his arm to listen to the Blu2 / Dave combination. It will be very interesting to see what he thinks . . . . . .


----------



## Hummer25

Malcyg said:


> Great to hear. I believe that first units should ship in UK this week. I look forward to getting mine given your reaction. Your description is exactly what I was hoping for and expecting given Rob's comments anyway. I'm still slightly apprehensive as I have not heard the Blu/Dave combination, but he was right about Dave so I trust him on this one.




You won't be disappointed, the differences are noticeable immediately. I was listening with a friend and we were gobsmacked by the soundstage. It was so wide and deep. The sense ease and smooth presentation is beguiling. I believe Chords approach is unraveling the material that is captured in digital recording in a way we all hoped for when digital audio was launched many years ago.

When you think how vinyl/ analogue evolved over a very long period from the 78 to where we are now it is understandable how new technologies take time to fully develop. I would imagine in 5-10 years time we will have resolved every aspect of digital recording releasing its full potential.

I once heard one of the worlds best producers at a seminar say that digital recording was absolutely the best way to capture audio but transferring that audio to our ears was the difficulty. What was recorded was not faithfully being delivered by the electronics and techniques we had at our disposal. This was from an analogue fanatic. 

One last point. When I listened to the Blu2 m-scaler via DAVE I thought how similar digital was now sounding to the best analogue on tape. Maybe digital audio technology will come full circle and we will end up with a similar sound without all the inherent problems of tape or vinyl but with all the advantages digital audio has?


----------



## Crgreen

Triode User said:


> I have had my Blu2 for two weeks now. I suspect mine was one of the first batch of units in the UK. My experience is the same as Hummer25 except that I think that the Blu2 possibly adds as much again to the sound as when I upgraded from the HugoTT to the Dave.
> 
> A friend is coming over tomorrow morning with a clutch of CDs that he knows and loves under his arm to listen to the Blu2 / Dave combination. It will be very interesting to see what he thinks . . . . . .



In order to avoid any damage, LPs go under the arm, CDs go in a bag

Interested to hear how it goes.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Is the Blu2 the first to upsample to 768kHz? Not a device that will play that sample rate, but just the upscaling part?


----------



## maxh22

EVOLVIST said:


> Is the Blu2 the first to upsample to 768kHz? Not a device that will play that sample rate, but just the upscaling part?



I'm pretty sure Mojo, Hugo 2, and Dave already upsample to 768khz.


----------



## EVOLVIST

maxh22 said:


> I'm pretty sure Mojo, Hugo 2, and Dave already upsample to 768khz.



2048x, right.


----------



## GreenLeo

Hummer25 said:


> ...
> The whole sonic experience for me now sounds like analogue on mastertape. That is how it came across to me. No digital artifacts at all. It was not like listening to a digital system, more analogue in its smoothness and delivery.One aspect I noted, I could listen at very high volume levels for long periods without any fatigue at all. Audio recordings through this system are remarkable and move the digital experience to another level.



May I infer that the SQ already surpassed that of an LP system?  Given that not many headfier has the gears to play master tape(this is the holy grail, I suppose), it seems that Blu2 + DAVE must be one of the very best system to play back music.


----------



## Triode User

maxh22 said:


> I'm pretty sure Mojo, Hugo 2, and Dave already upsample to 768khz.



Au contraire mon frère, they don't upsample at all.


----------



## Hummer25

GreenLeo said:


> May I infer that the SQ already surpassed that of an LP system?  Given that not many headfier has the gears to play master tape(this is the holy grail, I suppose), it seems that Blu2 + DAVE must be one of the very best system to play back music.



I used master tape as a reference as I used to work in a recording studio and heard analogue recordings on tape frequently. What impressed me so much about blu 2 and DAVE was the smoothness of the sound, sorry this is the only way I could describe it. If you turn back the clock and go back to early digital with all the harshness and bright digital nasties it had and then listen to how it has evolved, for me it has become so much more ear friendly especially the Chord system we have today. This reminds me of analogue sound. 

I would agree that SQ has probably surpassed LP system in many respects as digital can do so much more than LP in many areas. It would be very difficult for LP to play bass anywhere near as deep and controlled as DAVE does. This was one of the remarkable aspects of Blu2 and DAVE, it played bass with a depth and tunefulness I have never heard before. The very low noise floor is also very apparent  when listening with recordings coming from a very dark background. 

It will be interesting to hear what other folk make of the m-scaler technology as for me the stunning soundstage was simple awesome. One curious aspect was that I could also turn the volume up higher on material I had previously just listened too via DAVE and it didn't affect my hearing which is particularly sensitive? Blu2 and m-scaler technology allowed you to crank things up without you feeling your having your ears blown off.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Triode User said:


> Au contraire mon frère, they don't upsample at all.


----------



## Rob Watts

Hummer25 said:


> I used master tape as a reference as I used to work in a recording studio and heard analogue recordings on tape frequently. What impressed me so much about blu 2 and DAVE was the smoothness of the sound, sorry this is the only way I could describe it. If you turn back the clock and go back to early digital with all the harshness and bright digital nasties it had and then listen to how it has evolved, for me it has become so much more ear friendly especially the Chord system we have today. This reminds me of analogue sound.
> 
> I would agree that SQ has probably surpassed LP system in many respects as digital can do so much more than LP in many areas. It would be very difficult for LP to play bass anywhere near as deep and controlled as DAVE does. This was one of the remarkable aspects of Blu2 and DAVE, it played bass with a depth and tunefulness I have never heard before. The very low noise floor is also very apparent  when listening with recordings coming from a very dark background.
> 
> It will be interesting to hear what other folk make of the m-scaler technology as for me the stunning soundstage was simple awesome. One curious aspect was that I could also turn the volume up higher on material I had previously just listened too via DAVE and it didn't affect my hearing which is particularly sensitive? Blu2 and m-scaler technology allowed you to crank things up without you feeling your having your ears blown off.



Note the m scaler has a 2.76 dB insertion loss, so you need to increase the volume by 3 dB to volume match. But sure, it does sound much warmer and more refined - particularly on older recordings.

The sound-stage opening out is massive; and it represents a puzzle for me. I thought initially it was down to topology improvements; but when you throw the video mode, (so its 2/3 M taps) or when I compared the initial 0.5 M taps to the 1 M taps (both with same topology) again you hear big changes in depth.

And I do not know why for sure; WTA filters have never done this before. Perhaps it is simply the action of truncation of the filter coefficients against the ideal which is now happening over time periods that are natural echo or reverb time periods and this is the reason; it's currently my only hypothesis. And it makes sense as this is the first time an interpolation filter is working well over a second of data and not the conventional milli-second time period.

Anyway, exciting times, as the magnitude of the improvement has been completely unexpected. And I love it when unexpected things happen.

Rob


----------



## onsionsi

For Dave plus Blu2 owners, I would like to know how much the Dave+Blu2 effects (enhancing) in the new records and other records like youtube etc.

As @Rob Watts mentioned that the biggest enhancement goes particularly to older records.


----------



## Crgreen

onsionsi said:


> For Dave plus Blu2 owners, I would like to know how much the Dave+Blu2 effects (enhancing) in the new records and other records like youtube etc.
> 
> As @Rob Watts mentioned that the biggest enhancement goes particularly to older records.



I think by "older recordings" I think Rob might mean well-recorded analogue. There are of course, plently of well recorded digital albums too and it will be interesting to see how they compare in terms of improvements rendered by the m-scaler. In principle, I'm not sure why there would be a difference, since in digital form, both have been subject to analogue to digital conversion at some point. Is where that takes place significant?


----------



## EVOLVIST

Crgreen said:


> I think by "older recordings" I think Rob might mean well-recorded analogue. There are of course, plently of well recorded digital albums too and it will be interesting to see how they compare in terms of improvements rendered by the m-scaler. In principle, I'm not sure why there would be a difference, since in digital form, both have been subject to analogue to digital conversion at some point. Is where that takes place significant?



We're likely talking about older recordings of certain genres where mic placement during the recording lent itself more to a greater sense of depth, which translates to a more 3D image today.


----------



## Crgreen

EVOLVIST said:


> We're likely talking about older recordings of certain genres where mic placement during the recording lent itself more to a greater sense of depth, which translates to a more 3D image today.



True, but such mic placement didn't end with older recordings. For example: try the digital recordings of Dutoit/Montreal from St Eustache or Pinnock/English Concert from the Henry Wood Hall, though those might be regarded as "older" now. If what's being said is that we'll-recorded albums with a proper sense of dynamics and acoustic will sound much better, irrespective of when they were recorded, I can understand that. By the same token, I can see that heavily compressed, acoustically "flat" recordings might not have much more to offer, other than that they might not sound so edgy and are more tolerable. Can't wait to put it to the test.


----------



## rkt31

digital whether recorded from analog or directly from mic , involves adc . adcs already suffer from issues which are being addressed in Davina project. then SRC algorithms which convert the high resolution to 44.1khz which deteriorate the transients further . so if m scalar is so good with 44.1khz , then imagine how good it will be with native dxd files converted to 44.1khz using Davina or even a directly recorded file through Davina ! imho Rob is also waiting for this test. right now I am waiting for some upscaled clip of m scalar / Davina .


----------



## GreenLeo

Hummer25 said:


> I used master tape as a reference as I used to work in a recording studio and heard analogue recordings on tape frequently. What impressed me so much about blu 2 and DAVE was the smoothness of the sound, sorry this is the only way I could describe it. If you turn back the clock and go back to early digital with all the harshness and bright digital nasties it had and then listen to how it has evolved, for me it has become so much more ear friendly especially the Chord system we have today. This reminds me of analogue sound.
> 
> I would agree that SQ has probably surpassed LP system in many respects as digital can do so much more than LP in many areas. It would be very difficult for LP to play bass anywhere near as deep and controlled as DAVE does. This was one of the remarkable aspects of Blu2 and DAVE, it played bass with a depth and tunefulness I have never heard before. The very low noise floor is also very apparent  when listening with recordings coming from a very dark background.
> 
> It will be interesting to hear what other folk make of the m-scaler technology as for me the stunning soundstage was simple awesome. One curious aspect was that I could also turn the volume up higher on material I had previously just listened too via DAVE and it didn't affect my hearing which is particularly sensitive? Blu2 and m-scaler technology allowed you to crank things up without you feeling your having your ears blown off.



Thank you, Hummer.

You've shown a very strong reference and I truly believe that the era of digital has come.  

Now I wonder the effect of Blu 2 + DAVE for high red music.  The higher the sampling rate, the higher the accuracy in the time domain of the sample.  Has any Headfier check if Blue 2 + DAVE is also magical for say 24/192 m7sic files?


----------



## EVOLVIST

So really, all joking aside (unlike before), I've looked, but I can see only one "DAC" that had upsampled 16x RBCD before the DAVE+ Blu2 combo.

Anybody know of any others? It's one thing to play a large sample rate; it's quite another to upsample in a box like Blu2 does.


----------



## EVOLVIST

Cary DAC-200TS? 

Antelope Zodiac Platinum? Not really, huh? 

NuPrime DAC-9? A strange beast. 

Of course massive upsampling doesn't tell the whole story by far. It's all in the implementation.


----------



## jelt2359

Rob Watts said:


> Note the m scaler has a 2.76 dB insertion loss, so you need to increase the volume by 3 dB to volume match. But sure, it does sound much warmer and more refined - particularly on older recordings.
> 
> The sound-stage opening out is massive; and it represents a puzzle for me. I thought initially it was down to topology improvements; but when you throw the video mode, (so its 2/3 M taps) or when I compared the initial 0.5 M taps to the 1 M taps (both with same topology) again you hear big changes in depth.
> 
> ...



Does this mean that with the blu2 attached, I need to put the volume at 3db higher to get the same volume?


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes.


----------



## tunes

Crgreen said:


> In order to avoid any damage, LPs go under the arm, CDs go in a bag
> 
> Interested to hear how it goes.



Will there be an inexpensive external add on solution to permit MQA files to be played on the Hugo2 or DAVE?  For many, streaming high res digital will allow more music to be sampled and avoid the waste of buying entire CDs or vinyl for one good track.  How can MQA files to be played through DAVE using TIDAL ??


----------



## Crgreen

If my understanding is correct, they can through software but not by the appropriate hardware, see: JA's review of the DAVE in Stereophile.


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> Will there be an inexpensive external add on solution to permit MQA files to be played on the Hugo2 or DAVE?  For many, streaming high res digital will allow more music to be sampled and avoid the waste of buying entire CDs or vinyl for one good track.  How can MQA files to be played through DAVE using TIDAL ??



Rob Watts has said that he would only pursue technologies such as MQA when he could perceive an advantage to the sound quality. He avoided saying it but the clear implication was that he could not hear any improvement to the sound at the moment and it was therefore not on his agenda.

MQA files can be streamed from Tidal and played direct into the Dave without any unfolding. 

I am streaming Tidal via an Aries and am getting software unfolding to 96kHz in the Aries (with the Aries beta firmware upgrade) which is then fed direct into the Dave via the USB connection from the Aries. See the Dave display below when it is receiving this software unfolded MQA file from the Aries.

I personally think the quality of the DAC is much more important than MQA.


----------



## tunes (May 18, 2017)

Triode User said:


> Rob Watts has said that he would only pursue technologies such as MQA when he could perceive an advantage to the sound quality. He avoided saying it but the clear implication was that he could not hear any improvement to the sound at the moment and it was therefore not on his agenda.
> 
> MQA files can be streamed from Tidal and played direct into the Dave without any unfolding.
> 
> ...




Can you tell me more about the Aries?

What does it do?  Is it Wifi streamer? What does it cost?  How is it similar or different from what I now use as a server Aurender N100H?  Can I do the same with the Aurender and the DAVE?


----------



## raypin

Triode User said:


> Rob Watts has said that he would only pursue technologies such as MQA when he could perceive an advantage to the sound quality. He avoided saying it but the clear implication was that he could not hear any improvement to the sound at the moment and it was therefore not on his agenda.
> 
> MQA files can be streamed from Tidal and played direct into the Dave without any unfolding.
> 
> ...



Mm..nice! Can you detect any improvements using partial unfolded MQA feeding the DAVE vs. Laptop feeding your DAVE?


----------



## tunes

jelt2359 said:


> Does this mean that with the blu2 attached, I need to put the volume at 3db higher to get the same volume?


Do regular FLAC files sent to m scaler blue2 via USB or optical sound as good as the same played via a CD?  If there is no difference then why not offer an upscaler at a lower cost without the transport for those of us who are moving away from physical CDs??


----------



## Clive101 (May 18, 2017)

A few of us have asked for the mScaler as a standalone product. In the meantime I guess we all have to wait, I would like it now as I have no intreast in CD ( only to purchase and rip ).
As sales tail off of Blu Mk 2 I hope it will be released.
The up lift in cost from the standard CD player to the CD player with the mScaler is not much extra so I presume Chord will be using the mScaler to promote other platforms so it may be unlikely to be released as a separate product which would be a shame.
Chord may wish to have the mScaler only with other products...?
If it could be clipped into Dave Mk 2 it would save the cable issue and extra stand but unlikely.


----------



## raypin

Mm..let me add to the chorus: standalone M scaler next. Please.


----------



## BunnyNamedCraig (May 18, 2017)

The dave is visiting the store for the next three weeks. Come by and experience it!


----------



## Triode User

Clive101 said:


> *A few of us have asked for the mScaler as a standalone product.* In the meantime I guess we all have to wait, I would like it now as I have no intreast in CD ( only to purchase and rip ).
> *As sales tail off of Blu Mk 2 I hope it will be released*.
> The up lift in cost from the standard CD player to the CD player with the mScaler is not much extra so I presume Chord will be using the mScaler to promote other platforms so it may be unlikely to be released as a separate product which would be a shame.
> Chord may wish to have the mScaler only with other products...?
> If it could be clipped into Dave Mk 2 it would save the cable issue and extra stand but unlikely.



That's what I call forward thinking (hoping) with the Blu2 only having started shipping production units about two weeks ago!! I suspect you realise that the Blu2 MScaler has a product life of several years and that a stand alone MScaler is quite a few (many?) years away. Rob has already said that a combined Dave / MScaler might be 10 years away as it will rely on components that don't currently exist.

Personally I will certainly have a CD player for at least the next 5 years and maybe longer so having the Blu2 means I can dispense with another box for the CD function.

From what I have seen of pictures of peoples systems, many could afford a Blu2 MScaler now if they got rid of their super expensive power leads!!


----------



## Rob Watts

Triode User said:


> Rob Watts has said that he would only pursue technologies such as MQA when he could perceive an advantage to the sound quality. He avoided saying it but the clear implication was that he could not hear any improvement to the sound at the moment and it was therefore not on his agenda.
> 
> MQA files can be streamed from Tidal and played direct into the Dave without any unfolding.
> 
> ...



I was actually being polite; the MQA interpolation filters against a standard WTA interpolation filter (I compared it using a Mojo) sounds dreadful. MQA is technically flawed, with huge and completely unacceptable levels of aliasing. And it's those two reasons why I refuse to implement it in my designs.


----------



## Triode User

raypin said:


> Mm..nice! Can you detect any improvements using partial unfolded MQA feeding the DAVE vs. Laptop feeding your DAVE?



NO.


----------



## tunes

Clive101 said:


> A few of us have asked for the mScaler as a standalone product. In the meantime I guess we all have to wait, I would like it now as I have no intreast in CD ( only to purchase and rip ).
> As sales tail off of Blu Mk 2 I hope it will be released.
> The up lift in cost from the standard CD player to the CD player with the mScaler is not much extra so I presume Chord will be using the mScaler to promote other platforms so it may be unlikely to be released as a separate product which would be a shame.
> Chord may wish to have the mScaler only with other products...?
> If it could be clipped into Dave Mk 2 it would save the cable issue and extra stand but unlikely.



Can regular FLAC files be fed to the mScaler via USB or optical to avoid having to spin CDs on the transport??


----------



## Rob Watts

Sure Blu 2 has a USB input and a BNC coax input too.


----------



## Crgreen

It's a bit like the original Hugo which appears to have been designed as a portable headphone DAC, with a line out, but many, including mine, ended up as system DAC which never moved nor had headphones plugged into it.

Similarly, with the BLU 2 I, and I suspect many others, view it as a USB/BNC m-scaler to feed the DAVE, with a CD transport built in. In other words, an m-scaler which can handle any digital source.


----------



## raypin

Mm...yes but the point is a standalone M scaler will cost less (substantial?) and that is always a good thing for the end-user.


----------



## Crgreen

raypin said:


> Mm...yes but the point is a standalone M scaler will cost less (substantial?) and that is always a good thing for the end-user.



In principle, one would think it would cost less, but it's unclear at present how substantial that would be, when it would become available and whether the money in your account will be of equivalent value at that point. Wait and see I suppose. Personally, I'm so impressed with Rob's digital advances and have enjoyed listening to music so much using them, I'd rather just get on with it. Of course, there are other equally legitimate views.


----------



## Malcyg (May 19, 2017)

Crgreen said:


> In principle, one would think it would cost less, but it's unclear at present how substantial that would be, when it would become available and whether the money in your account will be of equivalent value at that point. Wait and see I suppose. Personally, I'm so impressed with Rob's digital advances and have enjoyed listening to music so much using them, I'd rather just get on with it. Of course, there are other equally legitimate views.



I also doubt that a standalone unit would be significantly cheaper than Blu II. Sure, you'd lose the CD transport, but they'd surely need to add various other inputs as per Dave, maybe Ethernet as well, maybe even a built in streamer like the DSX1000 that I had prior to Dave.

I wonder whether people may be over estimating the cost of the CD drive and assume that if you strip it out, you get an M Scaler at half the price. I don't think that is how it would pan out myself.


----------



## ecwl

Stereophile review is now online.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-dave-da-processor


----------



## Triode User

raypin said:


> Mm...yes but the point is a standalone M scaler will cost less (substantial?) and that is always a good thing for the end-user.



Rob has already poured cold water on the hope of substantial savings by having a stand alone MScaler without the CD drive. 

And just imagine it taking 2 years before a stand alone MScaler comes on the horizon and that there might have been several price rises that ultimately means that a stand alone MScaler ends up costing more than the current price of the Blu2.

Buy the Blu2 now. You know it makes sense!


----------



## Sunya

I must say I got sick of all this MQA shoveling on our throat.


----------



## tunes (May 19, 2017)

What is the best speakers anyone has heard paired with the DAVE with or without the M scaler powered or unpowered??

Is an amp needed to drive speakers with enough bass slam direct from the DAVE?


----------



## Imusicman

tunes said:


> What is the best speakers anyone has heard paired with the DAVE with or without the M scaler powered or unpowered??
> 
> Is an amp needed to drive speakers with enough bass slam direct from the DAVE?



I'm also interested to know the answer


----------



## Clive101

Triode User said:


> That's what I call forward thinking (hoping) with the Blu2 only having started shipping production units about two weeks ago!! I suspect you realise that the Blu2 MScaler has a product life of several years and that a stand alone MScaler is quite a few (many?) years away. Rob has already said that a combined Dave / MScaler might be 10 years away as it will rely on components that don't currently exist.
> 
> Personally I will certainly have a CD player for at least the next 5 years and maybe longer so having the Blu2 means I can dispense with another box for the CD function.
> 
> From what I have seen of pictures of peoples systems, many could afford a Blu2 MScaler now if they got rid of their super expensive power leads!!



Yes,  stand alone mScaler could be a few years away and wishfull thinking but as we all want a mScaler we maybe have to purchase another platform which makes a good business sense, more profit for Chord ( no criticism they need it to R&D etc ).

I just wish Chord not make a stand alone mScaler with a little more profit added in, rather than paying for a cd transport.

The cost difference blu mk 1 and 2 is approx. £1500.00 so if you want a CD transport extremely good value but perhaps not if you do not need the CD transport.

When I referred to an add on box I was thinking of a poly type solution which would perhaps saved cable issues..? ( I had read the earlier comments of R Watts )

You make a very interesting point on the power cables, got me thinking would it be better to purchase a Blu mk2 or power conditioner first of equal value ...? Perhaps I should post that over in the Blu Mk2 thread...?


----------



## AndrewOld (May 20, 2017)

Malcyg said:


> I also doubt that a standalone unit would be significantly cheaper than Blu II. Sure, you'd lose the CD transport, but they'd surely need to add various other inputs as per Dave, maybe Ethernet as well, maybe even a built in streamer like the DSX1000 that I had prior to Dave.
> 
> I wonder whether people may be over estimating the cost of the CD drive and assume that if you strip it out, you get an M Scaler at half the price. I don't think that is how it would pan out myself.



Of course a stand-alone M Scaler would cost less. Maybe not half,  but substantially less. The casework for the CD player is expensive, the mechanism and electronics also costs money, you simply cannot argue that the CD playing component of the Blu2 costs nothing, that is devaluing the Blu2, and look how much the stand alone Chord CD mechanisms used to cost. It is also reasonable to suppose that a stand-alone M Scaler might  sound a little  better because there would be less noise associated with the CD electronics, power supplies etc - it would be a cleaner device.

Plus one might hope that a stand alone M Scaler would possibly have a few more inputs, and they would directly selectable from the remote control - it is annoying that the DAVE does not. A built in streamer might be a good move for the many of us who don't use CDs, but perhaps that would be best left as a separate Poly like unit.

I can't see any reason at all why a stand-alone M DAC cannot be offered soon, pretty much all the work has been done. Leaving a cd mechanism out and designing a simple case can't be difficult. We know that the MScaler was already lifted out of the Davina. Then those of us committed, enthusiastic DAVE owners who aren't interested in cds, or redundant mechanisms that add cost, complexity, noise but no value would be delighted to give Chord lots more of our money as long we get a product that makes sense.

Alternatively I'll just wait for a Poly with a built in LW tuner, a Mojo3 with a cassette mechanism, a Blu3 with a turntable ... how about a DAVE2 with a wind-up handle and horn?


----------



## Clive101

Malcyg said:


> I also doubt that a standalone unit would be significantly cheaper than Blu II. Sure, you'd lose the CD transport, but they'd surely need to add various other inputs as per Dave, maybe Ethernet as well, maybe even a built in streamer like the DSX1000 that I had prior to Dave.
> 
> I wonder whether people may be over estimating the cost of the CD drive and assume that if you strip it out, you get an M Scaler at half the price. I don't think that is how it would pan out myself.




The difference is £1500.00 approx. plus box, power supply, and profit. give or take..?
Note Chord Blu Mk2 had a new box redesigned.


----------



## AndrewOld

Clive101 said:


> The difference is £1500.00 approx. plus box, power supply, and profit. give or take..?
> Note Chord Blu Mk2 had a new box redesigned.



That's a good point. It kind of implies that the marginal cost of the M Scaler is £1500. So, as you say, add a (simpler) box ... (simpler) power supply ...

Might it not be really sensible for Chord to consider the stand alone M Scaler soon, given the way Brexit is pushing prices up and other factors seem to be pushing component deliveries out.

At the end of the day if someone could give me a single good engineering reason why an M Scaler should be bundled with a cd mechanism I will buy a Blu2.

Until then, I live in hope. Surely good sense will prevail.


----------



## hibo2

I agree with your comments.  I justified the purchase of Dave because of its sound and that it was both Dac and Pre.  Would I pay twice as much for a Dave with incrementally improved sound?  No.  It may be convenient for Chord to bung an M scaler into CD transports sitting on the shelf, the kill two birds with one stone philosophy, but not what most customers want.  They would sell many more M scalers if the price was more realistic.  Sure this is cutting edge tech now but for how long.  I've been wondering how this tech relates to Hq player.  Does anyone have experience of how redbook sounds upsampled through HQ player to a T+A Dac compared to upsampling through M scaler to Dave?

Martin.


----------



## miketlse

AndrewOld said:


> That's a good point. It kind of implies that the marginal cost of the M Scaler is £1500. So, as you say, add a (simpler) box ... (simpler) power supply ...
> 
> Might it not be really sensible for Chord to consider the stand alone M Scaler soon, given the way Brexit is pushing prices up and other factors seem to be pushing component deliveries out.
> 
> ...



Have you ever paused to think that it could well have been cheaper to introduce the M Scaler as part of the Blu2 (taking advantage of the already designed casework and power supply, etc) product, rather than design a separate M Scaler case? That would seem to be a single good engineering reason to me.

I am sure that if you keep protesting for a few more years, then John Franks will eventually offer to provide you with the M Scaler kit of parts. You can then drill a few holes in an old tobacco tin, and assemble everything together, and proudly show the resulting photos on Head-Fi.
I confidently predict that the overall cost will exceed £1500.

Now keep your promise and buy a Blu2.


----------



## rkt31 (May 20, 2017)

HQ player not even close to mojo or hugo. I have tested HQ player with best setting ie sinc setting and upsampled to maximum rate 768 khz feeding to mojo. a redbook file straight to mojo sounded lot smoother and clearer. HQ player is no match to m scalar


----------



## Clive101

miketlse said:


> Have you ever paused to think that it could well have been cheaper to introduce the M Scaler as part of the Blu2 (taking advantage of the already designed casework and power supply, etc) product, rather than design a separate M Scaler case? That would seem to be a single good engineering reason to me.
> 
> I am sure that if you keep protesting for a few more years, then John Franks will eventually offer to provide you with the M Scaler kit of parts. You can then drill a few holes in an old tobacco tin, and assemble everything together, and proudly show the resulting photos on Head-Fi.
> I confidently predict that the overall cost will exceed £1500.
> ...



The Blu Mk2 does have a different box that is why the Blu mk 1 cannot be upgraded see the earlier posts so it seems Andrew still can sit on the fence. The £1500 includes this modification..!

£1500.00 plus box plus profit etc yes more but how much if its ever produced..?

I am still on the fence enjoying Dave and found other improvements for Dave. Will I purchase a new Blu MK2 ..?


----------



## Malcyg

AndrewOld said:


> That's a good point. It kind of implies that the marginal cost of the M Scaler is £1500. So, as you say, add a (simpler) box ... (simpler) power supply ...
> .



Hmmm, I'm guessing that you have no experience of running a business?

I don't deny the attraction of a standalone M Scaler, and that would have been my preference. In fact, when Blu II was first announced with BNC input only, I had no interest in it at all. Once USB was added, it became viable for me and, presumably, several others, but I totally understand those who have no interest in CD. It is probably 5% or less of my playing time.

But a standalone M Scaler will need more inputs and a more mature operating system than Blu II to accommodate that. It will likely come in a case like the Dave and also, possibly have a screen similar to Dave in order to give clear information as to which inputs are playing at what resolution etc. Given that it uses a chipset which is more advanced than Dave and the fact that Chord have to recover their development costs, why do you believe that a standalone unit will cost any less than Dave? And how much is Dave? About the same as Blu II. I think a cut price M Scaler is just wishful thinking, especially given the narrow range of its target market.

By the way, you can easily switch input sources on the Dave with the remote control, so I don't understand your point on that. I find it to be the perfect way to make A/B comparisons because you can switch sources seamlessly whilst playing the same music on different sources.


----------



## Triode User (May 20, 2017)

Malcyg said:


> Hmmm, I'm guessing that you have no experience of running a business?
> 
> I don't deny the attraction of a standalone M Scaler, and that would have been my preference. In fact, when Blu II was first announced with BNC input only, I had no interest in it at all. Once USB was added, it became viable for me and, presumably, several others, but I totally understand those who have no interest in CD. It is probably 5% or less of my playing time.
> 
> ...



I agree with everything that MalcyG has said (sorry Malc for attributing your post to someone else).

I would expect a stand alone MScaler with more inputs etc to be at or near Dave price.

Having had my Blu2 for about 3 weeks now I would say that price would also equate to the improvement in sound.

Guys, dream on if you think Chord will do a cheap MScaler.


----------



## AndrewOld (May 20, 2017)

Malcyg said:


> Hmmm, I'm guessing that you have no experience of running a business?



Not running one, but I do have over 25 years experience working for a high-end consumer electronics company for whom a DAVE level price would represent a mid-priced product,
so I do have some non-trivial knowledge and insight into how electronics pricing and manufacture work. What is your experience  of high-end consumer electronics manufacture?



Malcyg said:


> But a standalone M Scaler will need more inputs and a more mature operating system than Blu II to accommodate that. It will likely come in a case like the Dave and also, possibly have a screen similar to Dave in order to give clear information as to which inputs are playing at what resolution etc. Given that it uses a chipset which is more advanced than Dave and the fact that Chord have to recover their development costs, why do you believe that a standalone unit will cost any less than Dave? And how much is Dave? About the same as Blu II. I think a cut price M Scaler is just wishful thinking, especially given the narrow range of its target market.



The Blu2 already has displays and controls for the CD mech, as well as a complex hinged lid and case. Dropping all this must, imo, make a substantial saving on the BOM cost. Adding another input or two should make very little difference. The price of the Blu2 did not go up when a USB input was added late in the day. And without a CD mech and all the associated electronics, power supplies, and clocking complexity there is surely a reasonable expectation of squeezing a little more performance from the M Scaler in a stand-alone configuration.

And as for recovering development costs, a stand alone M Scaler would enable the development costs of the M Scaler to be spread over more units, since there are many people who would buy it but won't buy a Blu2.




Malcyg said:


> By the way, you can easily switch input sources on the Dave with the remote control



No you can't. There is no button on the remote that will immediately select, say, the USB input, or Opt1. You have to know what state the DAVE is in - which is not at all obvious if you use Display Mode 4 - and then you need to arrow through the inputs which depends on knowing what order they are in and possibly getting annoyed by sound coming from an unwanted intervening input.  The Blu2 doesn't seem to have directly selectable inputs either - in fact, can you even scroll through them, or are you just dependant on some priority strategy? How acceptable is that for the money being asked?


----------



## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> Guys, dream on if you think Chord will do a cheap MScaler.



So the M Scaler inputs on the Hugo2 are for what? An £8.5k CD player? Dream on yourself!


----------



## Malcyg

AndrewOld said:


> Not running one,



That does show to be honest. 

Just a suggestion, but why not start a fresh thread headed 'Standalone M Scaler - we want it now and we want it cheap' and expound your views on that? Anyone else who is interested in comments about either Dave or Blu II can continue here without being interrupted by your whinging and cristiscism of Chord and their development strategy - which I'm sure I can't be alone in finding unnecessary and slightly offensive.

I think that it is refreshing and a privilege that Rob and John give us the benefit of their wisdom and insight on this forum and they must have much cooler heads than me the way that they let some of the constant sniping pass and continue to contribute.


----------



## Crgreen (May 20, 2017)

These issues have been debated on previous occasions, with no consensus having been reached. I think it likely that if Chord was starting from a clean slate, a stand-alone M-scaler would have been the logical choice. But as we know, that isn't how the product development happened, and the real issues are, given that, whether an m-scaler will be made available as a seperate product, and how long are you prepared to wait? It probably will happen at some point, but the waiting involves weighing financial and other considerations, and issues currently unknowable, to which each individual can only provide an answer. Some can't wait, others can. The rest is silence.


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> So the M Scaler inputs on the Hugo2 are for what? An £8.5k CD player? Dream on yourself!



Well initially a Blu2 can be connected to the Hugo2. No doubt in due course a version of the MScaler or something similar might be available in the Hugo2 lineup but a best guess will be that that this will not be in the same league as the Blu2 MScaler just in the same way that Hugo2 is not in the same league as a Dave.


----------



## Malcyg

Crgreen and Triode are both probably quite close to the truth.


----------



## jlbrach

the blu 2 is what is being brought to market and that is taking long enough.....for the time being it is silly to continue to discuss something that isn't even on the horizon...lets wait to receive the blu 2 before we speak of its successor


----------



## Triode User

jlbrach said:


> the blu 2 is what is being brought to market and that is taking long enough.....for the time being it is silly to continue to discuss something that isn't even on the horizon..*.lets wait to receive the blu 2* before we speak of its successor



But but but I HAVE it!!!!!


----------



## Hummer25

Having listened to the Blu2 m-scaler with DAVE I would not say the improvement is subtle. It is almost as big a jump as DAVE was when it was first launched.

The soundstage is massive and the depth with instrument,vocal placement is enhanced considerably.  Overall there is a super smooth, fatigue free analog feel to the sound.

Very impressive.


----------



## raypin

Triode User said:


> But but but I HAVE it!!!!!


Mm..lol!


----------



## miketlse

Triode User said:


> But but but I HAVE it!!!!!


Yes, and your posts regarding Blu2 are a high point on the Chord threads at the moment.


----------



## Triode User

Hummer25 said:


> Having listened to the Blu2 m-scaler with DAVE I would not say the improvement is subtle. It is almost as big a jump as DAVE was when it was first launched.
> 
> The soundstage is massive and the depth with instrument,vocal placement is enhanced considerably.  Overall there is a super smooth, fatigue free analog feel to the sound.
> 
> Very impressive.



Exactly, yes, just what I have been saying. Yes folks, Blu2 + Dave is Dave x 2 in terms of sound quality.


----------



## Hummer25

It would be nice if the m-scaler technology could be incorporated into DAVE even if it meant a bigger unit.

Nice your using Spendor SP100,s Triode User. I use SP2,s myself as I only have a small room but they still sound superb.


----------



## Triode User

Hummer25 said:


> It would be nice if the m-scaler technology could be incorporated into DAVE even if it meant a bigger unit.
> 
> *Nice your using Spendor SP100*,s Triode User. I use SP2,s myself as I only have a small room but they still sound superb.



Nice to hear of a fellow Spendor user. In my own little way using 25 year old speakers is flying in the face of a throw away society. Oh, and they still sound amazing.


----------



## raypin

Triode User said:


> Exactly, yes, just what I have been saying. Yes folks, Blu2 + Dave is Dave x 2 in terms of sound quality.



Mm...I briefly auditoned the Chord Dave + Blu II during CanJam Singapore 2017.......connected to the Audeze LCD XC. Spectacular. I was totally surprised at how good it sounded considering that it was a closed-back. It was unlike any closed-backed headphone I've ever heard.


----------



## Hummer25

Triode User said:


> Nice to hear of a fellow Spendor user. In my own little way using 25 year old speakers is flying in the face of a throw away society. Oh, and they still sound amazing.



If you throw them away let me know. Nice to see a system with cutting edge digital playing through old school speakers. I. Bet it sounds sublime!


----------



## Triode User

raypin said:


> Mm...I briefly auditoned the Chord Dave + Blu II during CanJam Singapore 2017.......connected to the Audeze LCD XC. Spectacular. I was totally surprised at how good it sounded considering that it was a closed-back. It was unlike any closed-backed headphone I've ever heard.



 Yes, but was it the headphones or the Blu2 that you were really hearing? . . . . . . . . . .


----------



## miketlse

Hummer25 said:


> It would be nice if the m-scaler technology could be incorporated into DAVE even if it meant a bigger unit.



Nice, but impossible with the current technology. https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-438#post-13150786
@Rob Watts has also posted about the issues caused by co-locating the M Scaler in the DAVE case, but I cannot find the post.


----------



## flummoxed

Hi Rob,

I would appreciate your thoughts on feeding a Dave or Hugo TT with something like a MUTEC MC-3+USB plus possibly their new REF 10 Master-clock?

There is a lot of discussion on the various forums on the use of so called re-clockers like the Upton ISO REGEN etc. 

Thanks in advance


----------



## Rob Watts

Short answer is don't bother...


----------



## rkt31

a query for rob . m scalar does a great job of upsampling red book to 16x but almost all the red book files have already gone through downsampling . does that mean downsampling algorithm currently being used are not so bad as upsampling algorithm ( other than in m scalar )?


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes the down-sampling creates transient timing errors through aliasing; but the up-sampling process creates many times more errors - it's much more serious. Reconstruction is much more difficult than decimation.


----------



## tunes

tunes said:


> What is the best speakers anyone has heard paired with the DAVE with or without the M scaler powered or unpowered??
> 
> Is an amp needed to drive speakers with enough bass slam direct from the DAVE?


Has anyone heard the Omega 7XRS speakers driven directly from a DAVE?  Looking for the purest full range speaker output without an intervening amplifier.


----------



## twsmith

This may be a little "off-topic" for the more recent posts on this thread, but I'm curious to know where in the US have people been purchasing their DAVEs.   I have the impression that the DAVE is not widely available (or not at all) through on-line retailers.    Although I'm sure there are some local Chord dealers in the US around that have DAVEs in stock, they seem to be difficult to locate (at least through web searches) and even then, these shops may be very difficult for people to visit who live at some distance from them.


----------



## ecwl

twsmith said:


> This may be a little "off-topic" for the more recent posts on this thread, but I'm curious to know where in the US have people been purchasing their DAVEs.   I have the impression that the DAVE is not widely available (or not at all) through on-line retailers.    Although I'm sure there are some local Chord dealers in the US around that have DAVEs in stock, they seem to be difficult to locate (at least through web searches) and even then, these shops may be very difficult for people to visit who live at some distance from them.


In theory, you can go to Bluebird Music website (US distributor) and ask for your nearby dealers. In practice, even though I know where most Canadian Chord dealers are, most of them are not stocking demo units of Chord DAVE or the demo unit gets sold so quickly that it takes a long time for them to re-stock. I think unfortunately, with higher priced products and dwindling number of brick and mortar dealers, it becomes harder and harder to find these products for a proper audition.


----------



## ray-dude

ecwl said:


> In theory, you can go to Bluebird Music website (US distributor) and ask for your nearby dealers. In practice, even though I know where most Canadian Chord dealers are, most of them are not stocking demo units of Chord DAVE or the demo unit gets sold so quickly that it takes a long time for them to re-stock. I think unfortunately, with higher priced products and dwindling number of brick and mortar dealers, it becomes harder and harder to find these products for a proper audition.



Alas, Bluebird is less than useless for US info: no meaningful information available online, completely non-responsive to inquiries on where dealers are, etc.   Every indication is that Chord is a stellar company that is stuck with a useless distributor in the US (hopefully that contract expires soon)

Your best bet is is to google Chord and your zip code and look for a dealer site that is near you.  Alternatively, poke around here and find a member that lives near you.


----------



## twsmith

ray-dude said:


> Your best bet is is to google Chord and your zip code and look for a dealer site that is near you.  Alternatively, poke around here and find a member that lives near you.



Yup -- I've done that and the closest dealer is in NYC which is 4 hours away -- go figure!!    It seems like the lower priced Chord gear (Hugo, etc) is much easier to come by.   I can hardly wait for a new US distributor.


----------



## ecwl (May 22, 2017)

twsmith said:


> Yup -- I've done that and the closest dealer is in NYC which is 4 hours away -- go figure!!    It seems like the lower priced Chord gear (Hugo, etc) is much easier to come by.   I can hardly wait for a new US distributor.


I don't understand how this is a distributor problem. I may not be the biggest fan of Bluebird but the issue of not having a Chord DAVE nearby for auditioning is purely based on cost. It is my understanding that most brick and mortar stores have to pay say 60-70% of the full price of the product to order most audio components. There may be special demo pricing for some products (but not all) where the demo price is say 50% of the full price. So for a product like Chord DAVE, unless you're willing to buy the product regardless, you're asking a dealer to commit to $5000-$7000 to purchasing a unit from the distributor and then hoping that some local customer would buy it. If after letting the unit sit in the store for a couple of years, nobody wants to buy it, the dealer will have to sell it at a discount and hope that he can recover the cost he paid.
Obviously, cheaper units like Hugo and Mojo are easier to come by because the amount a dealer has to commit to stock the product is lower and the likelihood of a random customer being able to afford a Hugo and Mojo is much greater than a random customer walking into the store and being able to afford the Chord DAVE.


----------



## miketlse

ecwl said:


> I don't understand how this is a distributor problem. I may not be the biggest fan of Bluebird but the issue of not having a Chord DAVE nearby for auditioning is purely based on cost. It is my understanding that most brick and mortar stores have to pay say 60-70% of the full price of the product to order most audio components. There may be special demo pricing for some products (but not all) where the demo price is say 50% of the full price. So for a product like Chord DAVE, unless you're willing to buy the product regardless, you're asking a dealer to commit to $5000-$7000 to purchasing a unit from the distributor and then hoping that some local customer would buy it. If after letting the unit sit in the store for a couple of years, nobody wants to buy it, the dealer will have to sell it at a discount and hope that he can recover the cost he paid.
> Obviously, cheaper units like Hugo and Mojo are easier to come by because the amount a dealer has to commit to stock the product is lower and the likelihood of a random customer being able to afford a Hugo and Mojo is much greater than a random customer walking into the store and being able to afford the Chord DAVE.



The Mojo had sold close to 50,000 units, the last time John Franks mentioned a figure (the current serial numbers also seem to start 5xxxx, which supports what JF quoted), so any dealer knows that if he stocks the Mojo, he has a good chance of selling them quickly.

The more expensive Chord products, like DAVE and Blu2 are built to order - this does reduce the business risk for Chord, of having unsold equipment in stock. There do seem to be quite a lot of posters on Head-Fi, mentioning that they have recently bought a DAVE, so my instinct is that sales of DAVE are still healthy, and I believe that any dealer who ordered a DAVE would sell it reasonably quickly.
In the early days of the Mojo, there were plenty of posts, from owners who said that they went to their dealers intending to buy a much cheaper DAC, but as soon as they heard the Mojo they got their credit card out straight away. Quite a few of the DAVE posts, currently give me the same impression - people have heard the DAVE at a show, and instantly ordered one on the spot (and sometimes a Blu2 to partner with it), because the DAVE made such an impression on them.
Ultimately it is a chicken and egg situation - I think dealers would easily sell any DAVES in stock, as soon as they were demoed, but the dealers will not get a DAVE in stock in case it is not ordered.


----------



## twsmith

miketlse said:


> The Mojo had sold close to 50,000 units, the last time John Franks mentioned a figure (the current serial numbers also seem to start 5xxxx, which supports what JF quoted), so any dealer knows that if he stocks the Mojo, he has a good chance of selling them quickly.
> 
> The more expensive Chord products, like DAVE and Blu2 are built to order - this does reduce the business risk for Chord, of having unsold equipment in stock. There do seem to be quite a lot of posters on Head-Fi, mentioning that they have recently bought a DAVE, so my instinct is that sales of DAVE are still healthy, and I believe that any dealer who ordered a DAVE would sell it reasonably quickly.
> In the early days of the Mojo, there were plenty of posts, from owners who said that they went to their dealers intending to buy a much cheaper DAC, but as soon as they heard the Mojo they got their credit card out straight away. Quite a few of the DAVE posts, currently give me the same impression - people have heard the DAVE at a show, and instantly ordered one on the spot (and sometimes a Blu2 to partner with it), because the DAVE made such an impression on them.
> Ultimately it is a chicken and egg situation - I think dealers would easily sell any DAVES in stock, as soon as they were demoed, but the dealers will not get a DAVE in stock in case it is not ordered.



I think my original question was not so much whether an audio dealer stocks (or doesn't) a DAVE and how many are sold, but rather where to find these dealers, and more importantly whether they can sell "remotely" without one having to physically come to the store.   If a manufacturer or distributor actually says that you must walk into a retail store and have a live interaction/demo from a salesperson before allowing a sale, then that is a clear "no-go" on my list.  I don't think I'm the only person who has ever purchased high-end audio equipment based mainly on user comments, reviews or just "word of mouth".   Virtually all of the audio equipment I have was purchased on line.   These products were available either by direct sale from the manufacturer's website or from a retailer that does a lot of business via the internet.     By analogy, how much business do photographic retailers such as Adorama, B&H, etc. do on their website vs in the store itself?   These stores go out of their way to welcome online sales (which can include some very expensive items).   How many brick-and-mortar camera stores do you see these days (and that applies to audio shops too)?    I see no reason why Chord or any other "high-end" audio manufacturer for that matter cannot do the same -- unless of course they purposely intend to restrict or control the sale of these products to the people who want to buy them.   That fine with me, but just count me out as a possible purchaser of a Chord DAVE.


----------



## miketlse

I was not arguing against you, merely trying to point out my belief that dealers will sell more units if they get them in stock.
I did read a Facebook post during the last few days, that showed a map of the US, and explained that 50% of the population lived in maybe a couple of hundred counties. 
This info was quite a surprise to me, but maybe it is a factor in the small number of dealers of chord equipment in the US - if you are a dealer near one of these centres of population, then you have a good chance of selling any gear that you demo, but if you are located 5 hours drive from a centre of population, then you may be very reticent to order in any chord gear, with the consequence that you sell little chord gear, and then believe that it is unpopular.


----------



## Crgreen

You can always order and pay over the 'phone, which is what I did. But you will have to speak to someone.


----------



## miketlse

Crgreen said:


> You can always order and pay over the 'phone, which is what I did. But you will have to speak to someone.


Yes, but doesn't solve the problem for anyone who wants to hear the gear before deciding to buy.


----------



## Crgreen (May 22, 2017)

miketlse said:


> Yes, but doesn't solve the problem for anyone who wants to hear the gear before deciding to buy.



My point was directed to twsmith, who wants to order without visiting the store and speaking to sales guys and is aggrieved that he can't order online. I think it follows as night follows day that in those circumstances, you don't actually hear the gear. Of course, if you don't even want to speak to someone on the 'phone, you could do the whole thing by email


----------



## ray-dude

miketlse said:


> Yes, but doesn't solve the problem for anyone who wants to hear the gear before deciding to buy.



One thing to consider (and what I did).  I purchased my DAVE used, unheard.  My rationale was that I appreciated the Chord sound (I own a Mojo), and that I was looking for a significant upgrade.  

Based on my Mojo experience, I also was pretty sure that a quick demo wouldn't be enough to really appreciate what the DAVE could do (took a couple weeks for me to really hear what my Mojo could do).  I figured if I bought used at market price, I could I always resell at market price and eat the PayPal fees + shipping.  That $250ish risk (roughly) was tolerable for me for a purchase at this level.

Needless to say, I was (and continue) to be shocked by what the DAVE is able to do with some of my recordings, and I'm over the moon delighted with the purchase.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

miketlse said:


> Yes, but doesn't solve the problem for anyone who wants to hear the gear before deciding to buy.



Honestly, in store auditions are not a good way to evaluate; it's ripe with variables.  Sometimes you have to inhale and leap...  Best of luck.


----------



## strangecargo

twsmith said:


> This may be a little "off-topic" for the more recent posts on this thread, but I'm curious to know where in the US have people been purchasing their DAVEs.   I have the impression that the DAVE is not widely available (or not at all) through on-line retailers.    Although I'm sure there are some local Chord dealers in the US around that have DAVEs in stock, they seem to be difficult to locate (at least through web searches) and even then, these shops may be very difficult for people to visit who live at some distance from them.


I bought mine in person from a local Chord dealer here in San Francisco, Audio Vision SF. It took about a week after purchase for my unit to arrive.


----------



## strangecargo

bigfatpaulie said:


> Honestly, in store auditions are not a good way to evaluate; it's ripe with variables. Sometimes you have to inhale and leap... Best of luck.



I brought my own headphone amp, headphones, music, and interconnects in to demo the DAVE and Hugo TT. The dealer gave me a few hours to just sit in a room and listen. I think the impression of the DAVE I got was pretty close to what I got once I took it home.


----------



## Malcyg (May 22, 2017)

Can you not purchase, try it at home and return for a refund if not delighted? That's what I always do, but I am in UK and we have 14 days to return items, you my not be so lucky.

I rarely return items since I do a lot of reasearch first, but there has been the odd item that hasn't impressed me as much as I'd expected.


----------



## SomeGuyDude

I'll say this.

Listening to Tidal -> Macbook Pro -> DAVE -> Focal Utopia felt like the first time in my life I've heard "the best you can get." 

Personally I'd like to get my hands on an LCD-4 with it, but I now know what my "if I won the lottery" setup will include.


----------



## astrostar59

SomeGuyDude said:


> I'll say this.
> 
> Listening to Tidal -> Macbook Pro -> DAVE -> Focal Utopia felt like the first time in my life I've heard "the best you can get."
> 
> Personally I'd like to get my hands on an LCD-4 with it, but I now know what my "if I won the lottery" setup will include.



Knowing how much noise is transferred via USB from a MacBook Pro I would say look to that next. Lots more to be had yet!


----------



## EVOLVIST

tunes said:


> Has anyone heard the Omega 7XRS speakers driven directly from a DAVE?  Looking for the purest full range speaker output without an intervening amplifier.



I haven't heard the 7XRS, but I have heard the Omega CAMs with the DAVE driven directly. I got a really, really pure sound out of the combo; however, they were very limited in choice of music. Only have the DAVE drive 8ohm speakers, though. Anything lower is verboten.


----------



## ray-dude

Have folks found a good substitute for the Chord stands for the DAVE and Blu?  I'm sure they're awesome, but I prefer to save that $$ as downpayment for a car


----------



## bigfatpaulie

ray-dude said:


> Have folks found a good substitute for the Chord stands for the DAVE and Blu?  I'm sure they're awesome, but I prefer to save that $$ as downpayment for a car



Sure.  I heard the MSB Select about 2 months ago.  It was about as good as the DAVE.

Edit- Sorry I didn't read the "stands" parts   My comment still 'stands'! Har har!


----------



## stvc

ray-dude said:


> Have folks found a good substitute for the Chord stands for the DAVE and Blu?  I'm sure they're awesome, but I prefer to save that $$ as downpayment for a car



Plan to DIY my own choral stand.


----------



## x RELIC x

ray-dude said:


> Have folks found a good substitute for the Chord stands for the DAVE and Blu?  I'm sure they're awesome, but I prefer to save that $$ as downpayment for a car



This may be of interest to you, side by side if you have the space:

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-301#post-12837752


----------



## esimms86

I use a quartet of Stillpoints Ultra SS footers sitting on top of an incredibly inexpensive bamboo cutting board from IKEA.


----------



## stvc

esimms86 said:


> I use a quartet of Stillpoints Ultra SS footers sitting on top of an incredibly inexpensive bamboo cutting board from IKEA.



I like that idea but it won't be able to stack with blue like it original choral stand which is very cool looking.


----------



## ray-dude

x RELIC x said:


> This may be of interest to you, side by side if you have the space:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-301#post-12837752



I'm normally delighted to follow the trail that Roy has blazed, but with my space, alas I need to stack them.  I'm looking at various desk risers, but it may be time to Macgyver something to tide me over until (if?) I get serious with mechanical isolation.


----------



## x RELIC x

ray-dude said:


> I'm normally delighted to follow the trail that Roy has blazed, but with my space, alas I need to stack them.  I'm looking at various desk risers, but it may be time to Macgyver something to tide me over until (if?) I get serious with mechanical isolation.



I see.

Please let us know what you come up with as I've wanted to do some audio stacking myself to save space but haven't put too much thought in to it beyond a simple IKEA desk shelf.


----------



## Triode User

*UNABLE TO DISENGAGE MUTE ON DAVE*

Today I went to my Dave and the display was showing 'mute' so I just assumed that was how I had left it (I generally do not put the Dave in standby or switch off when I leave it).

I tried to disengage the mute using the remote but it wouldn't do it. I tried turning the Dave off and then on. No difference.

Just to try everything I pressed, and kept pressing, the volume up button on the remote. Nothing changed for a few seconds then the 'mute' on the display disappeared and the volume started to climb up from -75dB.

I seem to remember a telephone call had come in and I turned the volume down with the remote but it was still annoying so I must have just held my finger on the remote long after the volume was inaudible. 

So remember folks that 'mute' will display if the volume is turned below -75dB and will only cease displaying by increasing the volume above -75dB.

@Rob Watts  it might be worth putting in the next revision of the Dave Manual.


----------



## astrostar59

romaz said:


> You have a nice setup.  I have the same Mac Mini with Uptone MMK.  Mine is powered by a Paul Hynes SR7.  OSX is run off SD card and music drive is streamed from a Thunderbolt drive.
> 
> I have compared microRendu powered by the Paul Hynes SR7 against a recently purchased SOtM sMS-200 which is also powered by the SR7.  Compared against the LPS-1, I have found the SR7 to be superior.  USB cable used is a Clarity Cables Natural USB which is one of few USB cables that has been actually measured to meet true USB 2.0 spec (90 ohms differential impedance).  This cable outperformed and replaced my Curious USB which outperformed and replaced my TotalDac USB.  I have recently compared it against the RedNet 3 via SPDIF:
> 
> ...



Romaz, sorry I just read your post so way out of date here, but I have the Rednet 3 and liked the sound quality boost getting off USB in my system However I followed JohnJen's thread on DIY Cookbook on head-fi and fitted an internal LPS to my Rednet. Wow, it makes the thing, seriously better. Everything get bigger, faster and even smoother and layered. There are about 6 of us on here who did the same mod, one an external feed, the rest internal and all say the same thing.

Here is my mod:


----------



## Crgreen

I don't think you're going to find Romaz on here anytime soon.


----------



## mslatr

Wondering if anyone else has had this happen. After reading the Stereophile review of the Dave I thought I would give Tidal a try and see for myself how high res files compare to normal streaming. For this I am running a Mac Mini into the Dave over an optical cable.

When I play a Masters file on the DAVE the song plays a double speed. I thought it might be the song i picked so i tried a number of artists and songs but none worked. I then opened Audirvana and played high res files without issue. It's strange...when I swap my benchmark hgc2 into the mix it plays at normal speed. 

A few days ago the same setup played masters files no problem...any thoughts if this is a Dave problem or a Tidal problem??


----------



## maxh22

mslatr said:


> Wondering if anyone else has had this happen. After reading the Stereophile review of the Dave I thought I would give Tidal a try and see for myself how high res files compare to normal streaming. For this I am running a Mac Mini into the Dave over an optical cable.
> 
> When I play a Masters file on the DAVE the song plays a double speed. I thought it might be the song i picked so i tried a number of artists and songs but none worked. I then opened Audirvana and played high res files without issue. It's strange...when I swap my benchmark hgc2 into the mix it plays at normal speed.
> 
> A few days ago the same setup played masters files no problem...any thoughts if this is a Dave problem or a Tidal problem??



I had a similar experience with another dac, the music was playing at twice the speed. The issue was resolved by restarting the dac and re-installing the drivers.


----------



## jude

mslatr said:


> Wondering if anyone else has had this happen. After reading the Stereophile review of the Dave I thought I would give Tidal a try and see for myself how high res files compare to normal streaming. For this I am running a Mac Mini into the Dave over an optical cable.
> 
> When I play a Masters file on the DAVE the song plays a double speed. I thought it might be the song i picked so i tried a number of artists and songs but none worked. I then opened Audirvana and played high res files without issue. It's strange...when I swap my benchmark hgc2 into the mix it plays at normal speed.
> 
> A few days ago the same setup played masters files no problem...any thoughts if this is a Dave problem or a Tidal problem??




Try restarting your computer and/or your DAVE. I use TIDAL (with MQA) with DAVE a lot, and haven't had any problems. I just did some tests with MQA tracks ≥ 88.2kHz with _Passthrough MQA _unchecked (the correct setting for DAVE) and checked, and MQA tracks played fine (with fs changing from ≥ 88.2kHz to ≥44.1kHz, respectively).


----------



## Crgreen (May 29, 2017)

There's no problem. MQA = Mighty Quick Audio.


----------



## GryphonGuy (May 29, 2017)

mslatr said:


> Wondering if anyone else has had this happen. After reading the Stereophile review of the Dave I thought I would give Tidal a try and see for myself how high res files compare to normal streaming. For this I am running a Mac Mini into the Dave over an optical cable.
> 
> When I play a Masters file on the DAVE the song plays a double speed. I thought it might be the song i picked so i tried a number of artists and songs but none worked. I then opened Audirvana and played high res files without issue. It's strange...when I swap my benchmark hgc2 into the mix it plays at normal speed.
> 
> A few days ago the same setup played masters files no problem...any thoughts if this is a Dave problem or a Tidal problem??



Yes I have had this before on TIDAL. I just restarted DAVE and TIDAL and the problem disappears.

BTW has anybody else noticed that TIDAL is streaming Sgt Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band @ 192kHz. I thought software decompression was going to be limited to 96kHz?

Cheers
GG


----------



## Triode User

GryphonGuy said:


> Yes I have had this before on TIDAL. I just restarted DAVE and TIDAL and the problem disappears.
> 
> BTW has anybody else noticed that TIDAL is streaming Sgt Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band @ 192kHz. I thought software decompression was going to be limited to 96kHz?
> 
> ...


Just tried it on Tidal. I get 44.1 for the 50th anniversary edition.


----------



## Jawed

jude said:


> I just did some tests with MQA tracks ≥ 88.2kHz with _Passthrough MQA _unchecked (the correct setting for DAVE)


Does this setting do upsampling in software? Or is it decompression without upsampling?

Now playing: Robyn Schulkowsky and Nils Petter Molvaer - Hastening Westward


----------



## mslatr

Thanks all for the thoughts. I tried shutting down the mac mini no luck. I tried shutting down mac mini then dave and no luck. I tried shutting down dave and uninstalling Tidal on the Mac then re-installing and no luck. Next step will be to transfer my Audirvana license to this mac to see if that will work (I have an older Audirvana + without tidal there now).

I'm sure Tidal is great, and I have lots of other ways to enjoy music but something about this won't let me move on...part of me wants to confirm this is a Tidal issue and not with the DAVE.

Is there something about how the MQA files are viewed by the DAC that transmits the sample rate that may be getting confused with the playback rate? Reason I ask is 88khz files seem to be played back slower than a 96khz file though don't have a file that is in both resolutions to test that theory on - just what it seems like to me.

Can anyone confirm whether playing files from a browser like chrome will be just lossless or if there is an MQA stream at the higher resolution?

Many thanks in advance!


----------



## jlbrach

as far as i understand,If you use Tidal with your chrome browser you will not be able to access the MQA files...if you download the Tidal browser you can


----------



## astrostar59

I would try using A+ or other players. I found the Tidal app doesn't sound as good as some others.


----------



## ecwl (Jun 1, 2017)

astrostar59 said:


> I would try using A+ or other players. I found the Tidal app doesn't sound as good as some others.


I think that's true for a lot of DACs. But since I got Chord DAVE, I have not noticed software making much of a difference or if at all to the sound via USB.


----------



## 7ryder

Malcyg said:


> That does show to be honest.
> 
> Just a suggestion, but why not start a fresh thread headed 'Standalone M Scaler - we want it now and we want it cheap' and expound your views on that? Anyone else who is interested in comments about either Dave or Blu II can continue here without being interrupted by your whinging and cristiscism of Chord and their development strategy - which I'm sure I can't be alone in finding unnecessary and slightly offensive.
> 
> I think that it is refreshing and a privilege that Rob and John give us the benefit of their wisdom and insight on this forum and they must have much cooler heads than me the way that they let some of the constant sniping pass and continue to contribute.



Now now, telling someone to go somewhere else because you don't like what they are saying isn't a very mature way to act is it? And if Rob or John are bothered by comments by any of us, I don't think they need protection from people on this thread to make it stop. 

Frankly, I think @AndrewOld is spot on about the pricing issue and his comments are a refreshing counterpoint to the usual fanboy stuff we get around here from DAVE owners. 

Since you seem to like to offer suggestions, I'll return the favor with one - if you don't like what anyone says, then either skip the post(s) or click on the user's name and you can click on "ignore" and you won't see posts from that user going forward.

FWIW, I have not chosen to ignore you because I believe that you have a right to express your opinion here...even if I disagree with it...and I'm not threatened or offended if your beliefs or opinions differ from mine...in fact, by continuing to read your posts I may learn something someday.


----------



## tunes

Sennheiser’s new $55,000 Orpheus headphone system

Has anyone had a listening session with this incredible system and compared it to the likes of HEK V2 and Utopia using the DAVE and compared it with MSB Systems DAC?


----------



## AndrewOld (Jun 5, 2017)

7ryder said:


> Now now, telling someone to go somewhere else because you don't like what they are saying isn't a very mature way to act is it? And if Rob or John are bothered by comments by any of us, I don't think they need protection from people on this thread to make it stop.
> 
> Frankly, I think @AndrewOld is spot on about the pricing issue and his comments are a refreshing counterpoint to the usual fanboy stuff we get around here from DAVE owners.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the support 7ryder. And, for the record Malcyg, I've never said I want a cheap standalone MScaler now. I would be perfectly happy to pay a decent price, commensurate with the intellectual property and manufacturing involved. And who wouldn't want such a thing sooner, rather than later. As for not being a fanboy, well actually in a sense I am. I think it is an extraordinarily wonderful DAC, so my desire for  a standalone M Scaler is driven by my admiration for my DAVE and the pleasure it gives. Guess I'll have to wait.  Am I happy that Chord have taken the design of the DAVE further, yet packaged it in a way that makes no sense to me and many other DAVE owners? Nope. If people claim that leaving the CD mechanism and electronics out of the Blu2 will not make it any cheaper, will I challenge that claim? Yep.


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> Thank you for the support 7ryder. And, for the record Malcyg, I've never said I want a cheap standalone MScaler now. I would be perfectly happy to pay a decent price, commensurate with the intellectual property and manufacturing involved. And who wouldn't want such a thing sooner, rather than later. As for not being a fanboy, well actually in a sense I am. I think it is an extraordinarily wonderful DAC, so my desire for  a standalone M Scaler is driven by my admiration for my DAVE and the pleasure it gives. Guess I'll have to wait.  Am I happy that Chord have taken the design of the DAVE further, yet packaged it in a way that makes no sense to me and many other DAVE owners? Nope.



You catch me prevaricating rather than getting on with a client's project and your post popped up on the screen so it is a perfect excuse to prevaricate a bit more. 

I am sure that some sort of stand alone MScaler will emerge later on and it will also probably be even more improved from the current one in the Blu2. I do understand that for you the CD part is not necessary (or indeed wanted at all) but equally for many of us we are still happy users of CDs and so to have the CD player in the Dave effectively means that I have one less box to contend with and so the Blu2 MScaler is perfect.

Here's to hoping that the wait isn't too long for you.


----------



## Malcyg

AndrewOld said:


> Thank you for the support 7ryder. And, for the record Malcyg, I've never said I want a cheap standalone MScaler now. I would be perfectly happy to pay a decent price, commensurate with the intellectual property and manufacturing involved. And who wouldn't want such a thing sooner, rather than later. As for not being a fanboy, well actually in a sense I am. I think it is an extraordinarily wonderful DAC, so my desire for  a standalone M Scaler is driven by my admiration for my DAVE and the pleasure it gives. Guess I'll have to wait.  Am I happy that Chord have taken the design of the DAVE further, yet packaged it in a way that makes no sense to me and many other DAVE owners? Nope. If people claim that leaving the CD mechanism and electronics out of the Blu2 will not make it any cheaper, will I challenge that claim? Yep.



Andrew, I was being sarcastic but sometimes these things don't travel on forums well as I am beginning to learn. I didn't disagree with your original premise and, indeed, I did say that my first reaction was that I wasn't interested in Blu II and would wait for a standalone M Scaler and that only changed when they added the USB input. I also understand your point on CD - I'd say that it is probably much less than 5% of my playback time.

I could sense that your frustration stemmed from being very impressed with Dave, as am I, and you wanted the improvements on offer through Blu II, but on your terms rather than the current offering. I understand that as well, but my point was that you had made your case very clearly and there was no need to keep on restating it several times over, hence the suggestion of an M Scaler thread. The title was sarcastic, but had you started a thread for M Scaler, I would have followed it out of interest.

I don't consider myself a fanboy, but it is hard not to be impressed with where Chord are taking things though some do seem to resent that. My comments were certainly not intended to cause you offence and, given that you liked my comments on the BluDave combination, it didn't occur to me that they may have. I hope not anyway.


----------



## Deftone

tunes said:


> Sennheiser’s new $55,000 Orpheus headphone system
> 
> Has anyone had a listening session with this incredible system and compared it to the likes of HEK V2 and Utopia using the DAVE and compared it with MSB Systems DAC?



Holy.. you just made me think of this as a possible combo!


  

Better get those lottery tickets in guys!


----------



## Beolab

Quest: 



Have potential Dave or a Hugo TT customer that really likes the Dave, but he got a DCS Debussy today, and he want me to find a review DCS Debussy vs Chord DAVE / TT he can read before he place an order. 


I have tried to search the net but can only find an old test on Debussy vs QBD76 :/ 


So if someone got a review or who own them both can wright a small one, and PM me or publish in here would be grateful!


----------



## Crgreen

I think some people have made comparisons in posts on this forum but I've never seen one in a hi-fi mag, possibly because they don't want to offend either manufacturer and risk not being able to review their products in the future.


----------



## Triode User

Beolab said:


> Quest:
> Have potential Dave or a Hugo TT customer that really likes the Dave, but he got a DCS Debussy today, and he want me to find a review DCS Debussy vs Chord DAVE / TT he can read before he place an order.
> I have tried to search the net but can only find an old test on Debussy vs QBD76 :/
> So if someone got a review or who own them both can wright a small one, and PM me or publish in here would be grateful!



Can the customer not have a home demo and compare that way? That would be the only real way to assess. We all look for something slightly different out of what we want to achieve.

I have not heard a DCS Debussy but I have directly compared a Dave to a Bricasti M1 SE and to my ears I much preferred the Dave.


----------



## Beolab

My customer borrowed the DAVE home for 8 days, and he liked it alot, but he still want to read on what other think how it stands against the DCS in different setups


----------



## ecwl

Beolab said:


> My customer borrowed the DAVE home for 8 days, and he liked it alot, but he still want to read on what other think how it stands against the DCS in different setups


I think that would be hard because I doubt most people would have had dCS Debussy and Chord DAVE in a direct A/B comparison.
However, maybe this can convince your customer. There are online PDF versions of the Hi-Fi News and Record Reviews of dCS Vivaldi and Chord DAVE. Both reviews have measurements of the DACs and you can actually see Chord DAVE measures better than dCS Vivaldi. And technically, Chord DAVE got 91% and dCS Vivaldi got 90% although I think the magazine's review scoring is slightly price-based, which means a 91% score $1000 DAC may not outperform a 90% score $10000 DAC. But then your customer may not need to know that. Anyway, that's why I think the measurements might be more convincing to your customer.
Ultimately, I think your customer should buy what he likes. We all know people who buy gear with tons of sonic distortions but they just love the sound. Who are we to judge? It's their money.


----------



## Matez

ecwl said:


> Ultimately, I think your customer should buy what he likes. We all know people who buy gear with tons of sonic distortions but they just love the sound. Who are we to judge? It's their money.



I can't express enough how spot-on you are with this. There's a ton of gear out there that measures bad indeed, yet sounds awesome. I tend to think that measurements are important, but have complementary value. I've heard many devices that measured very well (sources mainly), yet didn't impress me at all. There were some which sounded very good and had their numbers in check. But the most pleasant one probably is nowhere near i.e. DAVE in terms of its measured performance. 

As far as DAVE vs dCS matter goes, that's merely a subjective hunch, but something tells me that if I had to pick one, I'd go after DAVE.


----------



## Triode User

Matez said:


> I can't express enough how spot-on you are with this. There's a ton of gear out there that measures bad indeed, yet sounds awesome. I tend to think that measurements are important, but have complementary value. I've heard many devices that measured very well (sources mainly), yet didn't impress me at all. There were some which sounded very good and had their numbers in check. But the most pleasant one probably is nowhere near i.e. DAVE in terms of its measured performance.
> 
> As far as DAVE vs dCS matter goes, that's merely a subjective hunch, but something tells me that if I had to pick one, I'd go after DAVE.



Also of course, the Dave is not the end of the story. The customer could ultimately add a Blu2 and take it to another level of sound and performance.


----------



## tunes

So far the best price performance device I have seen to be used as a transport on the go with the HUGO2 is the Pioneer XDP-100R. It can steam TIDAL to the HUGO2 with built in Wifi, has 2 200GB microSD card slots, decent battery life, touch screen, Bluetooth and USB output. I don't think it has optical out and not really sure if optical or USB is best option for a transport. Can anyone chime in regarding this option for a portable transport for the HUGO2???


----------



## britneedadvice

Rob Watts said:


> I was actually being polite; the MQA interpolation filters against a standard WTA interpolation filter (I compared it using a Mojo) sounds dreadful. MQA is technically flawed, with huge and completely unacceptable levels of aliasing. And it's those two reasons why I refuse to implement it in my designs.



I understood criticism of another Manufacturer's products was not allowed on Head-fi ( or does that only apply when the other manufacturer happens to be a Head-fi sponsor?)


----------



## miketlse

britneedadvice said:


> I understood criticism of another Manufacturer's products was not allowed on Head-fi ( or does that only apply when the other manufacturer happens to be a Head-fi sponsor?)


MQA is not a product. It is an audio codec using lossy compression. It is owned by MQA Ltd, and not Meridian Audio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_Quality_Authenticated
Rob Watts is merely discussing the technical merits of an audio codec.


----------



## ecwl

I was thinking about how I listen to MQA tracks off Tidal. This is what I've observed off the DAVE +/- Blu2. If I go on HDtracks and the original source is >44/48kHz, I use my software MQA decoding in the Tidal app to feed Chord DAVE 88kHz/96kHz MQA decoded stream. Because that generally sounds better. But if I go on HD tracks and I can't find the tracks or I find out that the original source is 44kHz/24-bit or 48kHz/24-bit, I actually find that it's better not to listen to the MQA stream on Tidal. I found that the original non-MQA CD 44/16 track on Tidal off the DAVE sounds better than the 88kHz MQA decoded stream off the DAVE. To me, MQA seems to be a good high-res lossy compression scheme so if the original tracks were recorded at 88kHz or above, having the MQA decoding back to 88kHz/96kHz to feed DAVE sounds better. But MQA seems to be a crappy digital filter so if the original track is just 44/16, it seems that the MQA track that upsampled it to whatever resolution (say 88kHz or even 352kHz) just doesn't sound as good as if you just feed the 44/16 track to DAVE to upsample. That's my speculation and my sonic preferences while listening to DAVE. Obviously your mileage and preferences may vary.


----------



## Jiffi32

Currently have a Dave on home loan while my Hugo is having new batteries fitted. There is just Soo much more emotion coming through. Digging out lots of live albums as they sound more 'there' than with Hugo.


----------



## astrostar59

Deftone said:


> Holy.. you just made me think of this as a possible combo!
> 
> 
> 
> Better get those lottery tickets in guys!



No, but* isquirrel* has the *MSB Select DAC* and the *DAVE* with Stax 009s and a Woo Audio amplifier, inc the MSB electrostatic amp. I would ask him.


----------



## astrostar59

ecwl said:


> I was thinking about how I listen to MQA tracks off Tidal. This is what I've observed off the DAVE +/- Blu2. If I go on HDtracks and the original source is >44/48kHz, I use my software MQA decoding in the Tidal app to feed Chord DAVE 88kHz/96kHz MQA decoded stream. Because that generally sounds better. But if I go on HD tracks and I can't find the tracks or I find out that the original source is 44kHz/24-bit or 48kHz/24-bit, I actually find that it's better not to listen to the MQA stream on Tidal. I found that the original non-MQA CD 44/16 track on Tidal off the DAVE sounds better than the 88kHz MQA decoded stream off the DAVE. To me, MQA seems to be a good high-res lossy compression scheme so if the original tracks were recorded at 88kHz or above, having the MQA decoding back to 88kHz/96kHz to feed DAVE sounds better. But MQA seems to be a crappy digital filter so if the original track is just 44/16, it seems that the MQA track that upsampled it to whatever resolution (say 88kHz or even 352kHz) just doesn't sound as good as if you just feed the 44/16 track to DAVE to upsample. That's my speculation and my sonic preferences while listening to DAVE. Obviously your mileage and preferences may vary.



I found the Tidal app sounds so so. Audirvana+ V3 inc Tidal sounds much better. You may get better results...


----------



## ecwl

astrostar59 said:


> I found the Tidal app sounds so so. Audirvana+ V3 inc Tidal sounds much better. You may get better results...


I have never been able to detect any definitively audible difference between playing Tidal off my Oppo via Toslink to DAVE, my laptop via USB (not plugged in for charging) and my dedicated music mini-PC: CAPSv3 Carbon which has a SoTM USB card powered with the HDPlex linear power supply. I have also not noticed a change of software makes a difference to DAVE. I am not even sure whether I powered the SoTM USB card with the HDPlex linear power supply or not makes a difference. I definitely did hear sonic differences with different software with other DACs, including Chord QBD76HDSD.


----------



## 514077

ecwl said:


> I was thinking about how I listen to MQA tracks off Tidal. This is what I've observed off the DAVE +/- Blu2. If I go on HDtracks and the original source is >44/48kHz, I use my software MQA decoding in the Tidal app to feed Chord DAVE 88kHz/96kHz MQA decoded stream. Because that generally sounds better. But if I go on HD tracks and I can't find the tracks or I find out that the original source is 44kHz/24-bit or 48kHz/24-bit, I actually find that it's better not to listen to the MQA stream on Tidal. I found that the original non-MQA CD 44/16 track on Tidal off the DAVE sounds better than the 88kHz MQA decoded stream off the DAVE. To me, MQA seems to be a good high-res lossy compression scheme so if the original tracks were recorded at 88kHz or above, having the MQA decoding back to 88kHz/96kHz to feed DAVE sounds better. But MQA seems to be a crappy digital filter so if the original track is just 44/16, it seems that the MQA track that upsampled it to whatever resolution (say 88kHz or even 352kHz) just doesn't sound as good as if you just feed the 44/16 track to DAVE to upsample. That's my speculation and my sonic preferences while listening to DAVE. Obviously your mileage and preferences may vary.


It's great you can buy from HDTracks.  I was told that as a Canadian, my business is no longer wanted.  I'm not amused.  How do you do it?


----------



## x RELIC x

UELong said:


> It's great you can buy from HDTracks.  I was told that as a Canadian, my business is no longer wanted.  I'm not amused.  How do you do it?



Acoustic Sounds has a pretty good selection of Canadian 'eligible' downloads.

http://store.acousticsounds.com/ind...nedbinmodified2_dt desc &CanadaDownloads=true


----------



## 514077

x RELIC x said:


> Acoustic Sounds has a pretty good selection of Canadian 'eligible' downloads.
> 
> http://store.acousticsounds.com/index.cfm?get=results&start=1 &orderby=preownedbinmodified2_dt desc &CanadaDownloads=true


That's true; and they even have a rep for Canadians to call.  The crux of the matter is why Canadians are barred from so much music.  I think if I were an artist, I'd find it annoying that fans cannot purchase my music based on nationality.


----------



## x RELIC x

UELong said:


> That's true; and they even have a rep for Canadians to call.  The crux of the matter is why Canadians are barred from so much music.  I think if I were an artist, I'd find it annoying that fans cannot purchase my music based on nationality.



Agreed. I also find it incredibly annoying.


----------



## ecwl

UELong said:


> It's great you can buy from HDTracks.  I was told that as a Canadian, my business is no longer wanted.  I'm not amused.  How do you do it?


I only use HDTracks to check the sample rate of the original music. I usually buy from ProStudioMasters. I started my HDTracks account when I worked and lived in the US for a few years. When I moved back to Canada, HDTracks used to work with my US Visa card but over time, I would also need to VPN into the States in order to be able to purchase songs from HDTracks so I just stopped purchasing from them. Not sure how it works now. But international music rights management is complicated so I'm not sure if we can really blame HDTracks.


----------



## Whazzzup

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/best-desktop-player-server-for-your-dac-not-a-computer.851997/

Sorry for budding in and not trying to derail Dave thread, but maybe this is of interest or target market of this chord products users. I'm looking into desktop player servers other than your computer for quality file transfer to your dac, the quieter the better it seems. Any rate realize chord has a new cd ripper for Dave but my research has taken me to antipodes audio ds GT. Any rate any feedback of the concept or alternatives is greatly appreciated.


----------



## 514077

ecwl said:


> I only use HDTracks to check the sample rate of the original music. I usually buy from ProStudioMasters. I started my HDTracks account when I worked and lived in the US for a few years. When I moved back to Canada, HDTracks used to work with my US Visa card but over time, I would also need to VPN into the States in order to be able to purchase songs from HDTracks so I just stopped purchasing from them. Not sure how it works now. But international music rights management is complicated so I'm not sure if we can really blame HDTracks.


I was buying what little I could from them for years.  They now refuse my credit card because it's Canadian.  I do blame them for profiting from selling downloads and not even trying to overcome this ridiculous discriminatory policy.  I have a mind to start a thread about international discriminatory licensing if I thought it'd do any good.  Especially since my rants are way O.T., here.


----------



## ubs28 (Jun 13, 2017)

Do you guys travel with the Chord Dave to other countries frequently or do you use something else like the Hugo or Mojo for that purpose?

Currently I leave the Dave at home usually. But thinking of taking it with me because it is a shame not listening to it for so long. But I am afraid that it might get stolen or damaged if I travel with it everywhere.

It is the same reason why I leave the Focal Utopia at home and only take the HD 800 S and HD 650 with me.


----------



## miketlse

ubs28 said:


> Do you guys travel with the Chord Dave to other countries frequently or do you use something else like the Hugo or Mojo for that purpose?
> 
> Currently I leave the Dave at home usually. But thinking of taking it with me because it is a shame not listening to it for so long. But I am afraid that it might get stolen or damaged if I travel with it everywhere.
> 
> It is the same reason why I leave the Focal Utopia at home and only take the HD 800 S and HD 650 with me.


Rob Watts has posted that he takes the DAVE with him on his overseas trips. 
He may be the exception rather than the rule : I think he partly uses the 'spare' hotel time, to test how DAVE integrates with other source/cable/headphone/music file type configurations.
He probably would also find it relatively easy to get the DAVE repaired, if any damage did occur.


----------



## Triode User

miketlse said:


> Rob Watts has posted that he takes the DAVE with him on his overseas trips.
> He may be the exception rather than the rule : I think he partly uses the 'spare' hotel time, to test how DAVE integrates with other source/cable/headphone/music file type configurations.
> He probably would also find it relatively easy to get the DAVE repaired, if any damage did occur.



I thought Rob took Dave and Blu2 with him to show to customers and for shows. But I might be wrong.


----------



## esimms86

Whazzzup said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/best-desktop-player-server-for-your-dac-not-a-computer.851997/
> 
> Sorry for budding in and not trying to derail Dave thread, but maybe this is of interest or target market of this chord products users. I'm looking into desktop player servers other than your computer for quality file transfer to your dac, the quieter the better it seems. Any rate realize chord has a new cd ripper for Dave but my research has taken me to antipodes audio ds GT. Any rate any feedback of the concept or alternatives is greatly appreciated.


The concept is perfectly reasonable depending on the needs/desires of the end user. Face it, not everyone wants to spend their time tweaking computer systems or otherwise have a Mac or PC in their music space. Having said that, desktop music servers can get quite expensive.

I would suggest, in addition to Antipodes, also taking  a look at offerings by Innuos, Nimitra and Aurender. Wyred 4 Sound also has a new server in the works with price to be determined. I've only spent any appreciable time researching the Innuos products. They appear to be well regarded by reviewers. I like their CD ripping capabilities(which some other competitors do as well), option for separate power supplies within a given unit(read that as meaning cleaner sound production), homegrown and highly flexible software, and the fact that you can set their flagship model up to run Roon Core. I'm currently using a microRendu/ISO Regen combo but, if I were to invest in a server, the Innuos flagship would be my pick for the above listed reasons. Still, I'm certain that you couldn't go wrong with Antipodes or any of the other companies I mentioned.


----------



## Whazzzup

Thx I will look into innous...


----------



## Rob Watts

Triode User said:


> I thought Rob took Dave and Blu2 with him to show to customers and for shows. But I might be wrong.


Absolutely, but I take it even when I am not doing shows. The risk is actually more scratches rather than failure. My Dave has clocked up 1/4 M miles now...


----------



## Jiffi32

Hi Rob,
Have you had chance to listen to the 'hifi' BNC cables yet?


----------



## esimms86

Rob Watts said:


> Absolutely, but I take it even when I am not doing shows. The risk is actually more scratches rather than failure. My Dave has clocked up 1/4 M miles now...


Surely by now your Dave should be able to cash in frequent flyer miles for a free Caribbean vacation totally off the grid. 1/4 million miles, 1 million taps...


----------



## onsionsi

I would like to ask who's did this before specially @Rob Watts, can i take my Dave in an Aeroplane using a backpack or this is not allowed in Flight regulation.


----------



## hmartin

Actually have a similar question for @Rob Watts. I typically travel only over the day and thus tries to travel very light. Hence I find the Mojo perfect in terms of form factor, I have contemplated getting the Hugo 2 but find it too big.

Thus I cannot help wondering if you reused the form-factor and mayor components (e.g. case, code and battery) from Mojo and improved the components quality and PCB how much better in sound quality could you get out of this form factor without a strict budget on the components i.e. a premium version of Mojo?


----------



## Rob Watts

hmartin said:


> Actually have a similar question for @Rob Watts. I typically travel only over the day and thus tries to travel very light. Hence I find the Mojo perfect in terms of form factor, I have contemplated getting the Hugo 2 but find it too big.
> 
> Thus I cannot help wondering if you reused the form-factor and mayor components (e.g. case, code and battery) from Mojo and improved the components quality and PCB how much better in sound quality could you get out of this form factor without a strict budget on the components i.e. a premium version of Mojo?



The problem is power - Mojo is so small, any more power dissipation would cause problems.


----------



## JaZZ

Rob Watts said:


> The problem is power - Mojo is so small, any more power dissipation would cause problems.


Even the Hugo² is driven at its limits in this respect, as it gets quite warm, even hot when playing and charging at the same time. It shut itself down several times by doing so, obviously a protective function known from the Mojo (not to be found in the manual).


----------



## Whazzzup

JaZZ said:


> Even the Hugo² is driven at its limits in this respect, as it gets quite warm, even hot when playing and charging at the same time. It shut itself down several times by doing so, obviously a protective function known from the Mojo (not to be found in the manual).


Well that seems weird, Hugo doesn't seem to get hot and shut down while charging.


----------



## hmartin

Thanks Rob! 

Mojo sounds pretty amazing as long as you don't compare directly to Dave so not a big problem living with that sound quality when traveling. Will see if I change my mind about the size issue when I had a chance to listen to Hugo2.


----------



## Paul Bjernklo

JaZZ said:


> Even the Hugo² is driven at its limits in this respect, as it gets quite warm, even hot when playing and charging at the same time. It shut itself down several times by doing so, obviously a protective function known from the Mojo (not to be found in the manual).



Hi, Yes it is warm even if not used, and same temperature if playing or not playing in desktop mode in my home rig, but mine has never shut down though... My power button light is in desktop mode though more pink than red compared to the colour i see in the manual and hope that is the intended colour... Any comments on colour in this state please...


----------



## Jawed

My DAVE is very hot (in the region of 50C I'd guess, with room temperature in the region of 30C) sat on my desk playing music into headphones. It doesn't run cooler when music is not playing, nor when the display is turned off. Thankfully, it hasn't stopped playing music just because it's hot.

Now playing: Derek Bailey - Play 4


----------



## JaZZ (Jun 18, 2017)

Now that my Hugo² is fully charged, the temperature is significantly reduced, even if it's connected to the charger during playback and temporarily showing the white charging light. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the extended charging phase from maybe 30% to 100%.

DAVE is constantly warm (hot?), but not on an allarming level (the Hugo² was hotter).


----------



## Deftone

hmartin said:


> Actually have a similar question for @Rob Watts. I typically travel only over the day and thus tries to travel very light. Hence I find the Mojo perfect in terms of form factor, I have contemplated getting the Hugo 2 but find it too big.
> 
> Thus I cannot help wondering if you reused the form-factor and mayor components (e.g. case, code and battery) from Mojo and improved the components quality and PCB how much better in sound quality could you get out of this form factor without a strict budget on the components i.e. a premium version of Mojo?



 I think this day will come just not for a while yet.


----------



## gnomen

I am contemplating a BD/4K player with optical audio out to the TT. It will be the second optical connection to the TT. Does anyone use a good switch which will allow two optical audio cables to feed into the TT, with no loss of signal quality, and maybe auto switching between active inputs? Thanks.

(Posted this on the TT thread since I am a TT owner, but all quiet over there so thought I would ask here as well.  Thanks for any suggestions.)


----------



## BunnyNamedCraig

ubs28 said:


> Do you guys travel with the Chord Dave to other countries frequently or do you use something else like the Hugo or Mojo for that purpose?
> 
> Currently I leave the Dave at home usually. But thinking of taking it with me because it is a shame not listening to it for so long. But I am afraid that it might get stolen or damaged if I travel with it everywhere.
> 
> It is the same reason why I leave the Focal Utopia at home and only take the HD 800 S and HD 650 with me.


could you imagine trying to explain to a TSA worker what a DAC is in general if questioned with the Dave? lol Obviously Rob does it and it doesn't seem to be an issue... Just funny imagery to me, that you made me think of.


----------



## AndrewOld

New Windows 10 Driver for DAVE.

Chord have just announced on Facebook:

Windows 10 users planning to install the latest 'Creator' update issued are advised to install the latest Chord drivers to ensure consistent operation with digitally connected Chord Electronics devices. The new drivers can be downloaded from the product page for each relevant product. Click to find and update yours:

I've checked my Windows 10 and it seems to have been updated to Creator, but I haven't changed my DAVE drivers and it seems to work OK.

There is a comment on Chords Facebook page that the new driver doesn't work with Mojo, which doesn't bode well for DAVE.

https://www.facebook.com/chordelectronics/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE&fref=nf

Anyone know anything? Anyone tried the new driver with DAVE?

You can find out whether your Windows 10 has been updated to Creator by going Settings > System > About.  If it says Version 1703, OS Build 15063.xxx you have Creator.


----------



## onsionsi

I know this is off topic but because i can't reach to the gallery for this thread, can someone advice me how to find the gallery here


----------



## SomeGuyDude

So I've heard the DAVE once or twice, but only with dynamics. My question is, how does she pair up with planars? I'm looking specifically at TOTL stuff like the LCD-4 and Susvara. 

This wouldn't be a "now" purchase, more like after tax season next year.


----------



## TheAttorney

Regarding planars, I've said before, and I still maintain, that DAVE + HEK V2 is a match made in heaven. Better to my ears than LCD-4, or any other dynamics/planar. I haven't heard the Susvara.

I feel that DAVE's cross-feed function is particularly effective with HEK's wider than average sound stage. Also important for me is to tame HEK's mild-ish 8khz peak with a touch of EQ. And a cable upgrade to remove any lingering doubt. And don't get me started on how important it is to get the source right to fully show off that DAVE/HEK transparency.


----------



## jlbrach

Dave sounds wonderful with my LCD-4....best HP I have heard with the Dave and I have heard them all


----------



## ecwl

SomeGuyDude said:


> So I've heard the DAVE once or twice, but only with dynamics. My question is, how does she pair up with planars? I'm looking specifically at TOTL stuff like the LCD-4 and Susvara.


I too have listened to DAVE + HEK v2 & LCD-4 albeit at our local head-fi meet. Unlike the Attorney, I like LCD-4 better than HEK v2 and probably better than my Focal Utopia. Unfortunately, my head is too small for HEK v2 & LCD-4 for long-term comfortable listening. Your mileage and preference would obviously vary. I tend to listen at lower SPL than others, often 10-20dB less. So I had no problems driving LCD-4 or HEK v2 with DAVE. I think we had one person in our head-fi group finding that DAVE does not play loud enough off the HEK v2 for him. A few people were unhappy that DAVE cannot play the LCD-4 louder. Since it's impossible to know what your listening preference is in terms of SPL, if you have a chance to audition DAVE with LCD-4 or Susvara, it'll be best to make sure you feel DAVE can play music loud enough for you. I have to say though, I don't understand how people listen to such loud music. OMG, I just said it. I'm getting old.


----------



## Deftone

MTMECraig said:


> could you imagine trying to explain to a TSA worker what a DAC is in general if questioned with the Dave? lol Obviously Rob does it and it doesn't seem to be an issue... Just funny imagery to me, that you made me think of.



Haha I would love to see their faces if Rob went on an all out, no holds barred explanation of his dac technology to TSA guys.


----------



## Rob Watts

MTMECraig said:


> could you imagine trying to explain to a TSA worker what a DAC is in general if questioned with the Dave? lol Obviously Rob does it and it doesn't seem to be an issue... Just funny imagery to me, that you made me think of.


Most airports my Dave and Blu 2 on the carry on gets through x ray without hold-up. Which is clearly a failure, as a solid block of aluminium is just a black hole; and my carry-on of Dave, Blu 2 and two lap-tops is about 20 kg; but occasionally it gets flagged. Then - what's that? It's a DAC I say. Hint of a frown, and puzzled look follows. What's that? It's a high end CD player. Faint smile of recognition, then a nod and OK then...
Actually the only airport where I get stopped absolutely every time, and chemical swabs are taken is London Heathrow, when it is done carefully and thoroughly.


----------



## TheAttorney

ecwl said:


> I tend to listen at lower SPL than others, often 10-20dB less. So I had no problems driving LCD-4 or HEK v2 with DAVE. I think we had one person in our head-fi group finding that DAVE does not play loud enough off the HEK v2 for him. A few people were unhappy that DAVE cannot play the LCD-4 louder...I have to say though, I don't understand how people listen to such loud music. OMG, I just said it. I'm getting old.



It sometimes makes me cringe to see other headfiers slowly destroying their ears in front of me. And many are old enough to know better. I don't think it's an age thing, maybe a macho thing?
I can only hope for their long term hearing sake that they listen at much lower volumes in their normal environments, when not compensating for the typical noisy meet. conditions. 

My normal listening volume with DAVE/HEK V2 is -25 to -33db for non-classical music, depending on the "loudness" of album mastering. For the less efficient LCD-4, I'd have to turn the volume up a few db, but still way below 0db.


----------



## Pappadave

TheAttorney said:


> It sometimes makes me cringe to see other headfiers slowly destroying their ears in front of me. And many are old enough to know better. I don't think it's an age thing, maybe a macho thing?
> I can only hope for their long term hearing sake that they listen at much lower volumes in their normal environments, when not compensating for the typical noisy meet. conditions.
> 
> My normal listening volume with DAVE/HEK V2 is -25 to -33db for non-classical music, depending on the "loudness" of album mastering. For the less efficient LCD-4, I'd have to turn the volume up a few db, but still way below 0db.


Totally agree. What wouldn't you hear at -20db with Utopia or -10db with LCD-4 from Dave?


----------



## x RELIC x

Pappadave said:


> Totally agree. What wouldn't you hear at -20db with Utopia or -10db with LCD-4 from Dave?



I listen to the Utopia at -33 to -44 on the DAVE, depending on the track/album from Classical to Pink Floyd and many other genres. Tidal is typically the loudest (requiring the lowest volume) compared to my collection of digital files which I try to find the best master. I've roughly measured (with a smartphone app) the SPL at the sealed earcup to average between 80-85dB SPL at these settings, with peaks that can go as high as 95dB SPL.


----------



## Imusicman

I listen to Utopia -30dB - 35dB depending on the tracks.
I can't imagine going any louder.


----------



## Matez

Deftone said:


> Haha I would love to see their faces if Rob went on an all out, no holds barred explanation of his dac technology to TSA guys.



He's such a nice man that I'm sure he can handle people no matter a situation


----------



## esimms86

Matez said:


> He's such a nice man that I'm sure he can handle people no matter a situation


These days flying with a laptop might be the biggest issue for TSA. Also, a person with ill intentions would not want to call attention to his or herself by presenting an aluminum encased DAC to a TSA agent.


----------



## GreenLeo

TheAttorney said:


> Regarding planars, I've said before, and I still maintain, that DAVE + HEK V2 is a match made in heaven. Better to my ears than LCD-4, or any other dynamics/planar. I haven't heard the Susvara.
> 
> I feel that DAVE's cross-feed function is particularly effective with HEK's wider than average sound stage. Also important for me is to tame HEK's mild-ish 8khz peak with a touch of EQ. And a cable upgrade to remove any lingering doubt. And don't get me started on how important it is to get the source right to fully show off that DAVE/HEK transparency.


Is the HEKV2 better than than 009?


----------



## lovethatsound

GreenLeo said:


> Is the HEKV2 better than than 009?


Only your ears can answer that question.


----------



## jlbrach

I tend to listen to my Utopia with Dave and Tidal anywhere between -35 and 27........with my LCD-4 i tend to listen most often between -20 to -10 with a few outliers in either direction

Funny story,I had an LCD-4 and sold it some time ago....It was much more difficult to drive than the current LCD-4 I own....for whatever reason this new LCD-4 which i got a couple of months ago seems far more efficient than my prior LCD-4..I actually called Audeze to ask about it and inquire if by accident I ended up with a 100 Ohm model by mistake...they checked the serial # etc and swore up and down that it is a 200Ohm model and couldnt account for the difference...personally I love it and would never sell this particular unit but am still a bit confused by it


----------



## GreenLeo

lovethatsound said:


> Only your ears can answer that question.


I don't understand the reply.  I believe Attorney has heard both.  Hence ask the question.  If I can access both, I surely will have my verdict.


----------



## seeteeyou

Maybe that reply was more or less like "ear of the beholder" since individual preferences do play a role?

DAVE could drive HE1000 V2 directly and that's an advantage for those of us who don't own any (preferably ToTL) electrostatic amps.

However, the performance of SR-009 would largely depend on what electrostatic amp we're putting right behind DAVE. If that amp were SRM-T8000 or anything from Stax, the performance of SR-009 should largely depend on the quality of preamp as well.

And then we might wanna think about whether it's a better choice to invest in M-Scaler and stick with HE1000 V2, or go for the SR-009 + SRM-T8000 combo instead.


----------



## TheAttorney (Jun 25, 2017)

GreenLeo said:


> I don't understand the reply.  I believe Attorney has heard both [009 and HEK V2].  Hence ask the question..



The short answer is that I'm not going to tell you .

The longer answer is that I've deliberately not listened to my BHSE/009s for a few months now, as part of my downsizing experiment to see if I can live with DAVE-direct-to-dynamics as a simpler  long term replacement. On the brief occasions when I did compare a while back, I felt that there were some things the electrostatics did that the HEK V2 (or any other dynamics) couldn't quite match. OTOH, much of the time I felt I was listening to the negative effects of inserting  any external amp vs DAVE's direct connection, rather than to the headphone differences. So, swings and roundabouts (as it is with any of these TOTL headhones).

What I have already confirmed to myself is that I can indeed live indefinitely with DAVE + HEK V2 if that was the only option.  What I have yet to decide  is if I should sell my full electrostatics setup (and therefore complete my downsizing goal), or keep them for SQ, or nostalgia, or seller's remorse reasons. I'll report on that in a few weeks once my HEK new audiophile cables have fully settled in and I thereby give the HEK's as good a fighting chance as they're ever likely to get in this showdown.


----------



## Whazzzup

Downsizing? Whazzat?


----------



## lovethatsound (Jun 25, 2017)

GreenLeo said:


> I don't understand the reply.  I believe Attorney has heard both.  Hence ask the question.  If I can access both, I surely will have my verdict.


Hi,what i mean is,that surely when your spending this  sort of money on headphones,you really do need to hear them yourself,of course people can guide you on here,but a guide is all that it is.I mean i would tell you that the focal utopia is better than them all,which to me it is.Now other  people on here would say something else is better,do you see where I'm coming from.I know sometimes its hard to get to demo all these great headphones,and very time consuming,but at the end of the day only your ears will tell you which one YOU like the best,before you part with all that money.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

seeteeyou said:


> Maybe that reply was more or less like "ear of the beholder" since individual preferences do play a role?



I also can't/won't answer your question directly, but your question is correct.  

I recently had the opportunity to spend some time with a DIY T2+009 at home with my DAVE.  It's an amazing setup: fast, resolving, detailed up to wazoo.  It is a truly world class rig by anyone's standards.  That said, when I gave it back I walked away knowing, finally, that I am just not a 009 guy.  Some are, and that's great: it is a marvelous headphone.  

You really have a hear for yourself.


----------



## paradoxper

Yup.


----------



## Whazzzup

OK dowwwn size ing, I think i get it now...?


----------



## rkt31

chord hugo feeding directly to power amp. audio recorded through olympus ls100, video through phone. power amp benchmark ahb2, speakers kef r300, source fiio x3 2k, plenty of ferrite cores on power and digital cables.


----------



## TheAttorney (Jun 25, 2017)

In the UK at least, "downsizing" usually refers to older parents, whose children have all now left home, replacing their family-sized homes with something smaller and easier to maintain.

In headfi context, I've enjoyed the fun of big shiny equipment, tube rolling, careful setting up, long warm-up times etc - because the end result was a fantastic sound.
But I sometimes wish I could get the same fantastic sound just by switching on a simple piece of equipment that is compact enough pick up and transport around with ease.
Rather like having a portable rig, but with TOTL main rig SQ.

Prior to DAVE, there was no advantage to switching from my long term electrostatics to dynamics headphones because the latter also (usually) needed a big heavyweight amp to sound fantastic - some users even have monoblock power amps to drive their more inefficient headphones.

But DAVE's direct headphone output gives the promise of downsizing with absolutely no compromise to SQ (not everyone agrees on this, but then you'll never get full consensus on any topic).
Edit: Blu-2 has now complicated DAVE's original promise for me - but I wasn't to know that at the time.


----------



## Whazzzup

TheAttorney said:


> In the UK at least, "downsizing" usually refers to older parents, whose children have all now left home, replacing their family-sized homes with something smaller and easier to maintain.
> 
> In headfi context, I've enjoyed the fun of big shiny equipment, tube rolling, careful setting up, long warm-up times etc - because the end result was a fantastic sound.
> But I sometimes wish I could get the same fantastic sound just by switching on a simple piece of equipment that is compact enough pick up and transport around with ease.
> ...


Ahh so this downsizing thing, a foreign concept and rarely discussed at head fi, is further exasperated at the higher the price point by electronic companies continuously releasing technical add ons. inexplicably  it seems to occur at all price points, funny that..... don't worry robb at chord is working frantically on more high tech gizmos to add on to dave, and of course, these promises of sound improvement will tempt the most stall worth of individuals I'm sure.
however i applaud the ability to make room for more advanced stuff, down the road.


----------



## ecwl

TheAttorney said:


> I
> Edit: Blu-2 has now complicated DAVE's original promise for me - but I wasn't to know that at the time.


I think in the past, I would argue that if people need to stretch their budget but they can potentially afford Chord DAVE, I would probably recommend them to really think about getting DAVE instead because I do think it is a significant level of performance above other DACs. On the other hand, while I would say that Blu2 is also a significant level of performance above other state of the art digital sound, I have to admit, I'm not sure if I would recommend anyone to stretch their budget to get Blu2. I think Blu2 is one of those luxuries that if you can afford it and you want to pay for it, you should go for it and you'll enjoy it tremendously. But I don't think people should make any financial sacrifices to get Blu2 because of its price.
To me, the more interesting question is with the Hugo2 out, would I still make the same advice to people about DAVE. Or would I say if you can stretch your budget to get Hugo2, go for it but otherwise, unless you can afford DAVE, just go with the Hugo2 because Hugo2 may be at such a high level of performance that as great as DAVE is, it's probably not worth it for most people to stretch their budget for DAVE. Hard to know since I haven't listened to Hugo2 yet. I'd be super curious to find out.


----------



## Whazzzup

Until TT 2 then get that, then there is Dave 2, just in time to start the merry go round again. I am actually having fun with this but I can see why cynicism has been poking its head as folks balk at the everescallating prices and endless upgrades and extensions...
But then again if Hugo 2 is levelling the field and making it unnecessary to buy Dave et all...? Somehow I don't think that is the marketing end game. But back to Dave...


----------



## ecwl

Whazzzup said:


> But then again if Hugo 2 is levelling the field and making it unnecessary to buy Dave et all...? Somehow I don't think that is the marketing end game. But back to Dave...


I highly doubt Hugo 2 would level the playing field to make it unnecessary to buy DAVE. Otherwise, Rob Watts would not be lugging around DAVE around the world on airplanes. He could have easily carry a Hugo 2 instead.
I think recommending people the "best" product in their preferred price range is always challenging. For most people, should we recommend DAVE or Hugo 2? Not sure.
I think before Hugo 2 came out, I would probably tell people to go with Hugo if they can afford it. If they can't, I'd say go with Mojo. If they can stretch their budget, go with DAVE. If they can't but they can easily afford Hugo TT, I would say Hugo TT is a more than worthwhile upgrade over Hugo that people should go for Hugo TT. However, if people need to stretch their budget to pay for Hugo TT, I'd probably suggest Hugo instead. I think this represents a personal value judgement on prices of DACs and how I value the differences in sonic quality. I don't think there is a right or wrong but it's my personal opinion.
Not having heard Hugo 2 yet, I'm not sure what my perspective now would be. But even if my perspective were to change, it'll just be one man's opinion.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

I don't know the Hugo (TT or 2) but many people who I trust and have heard them, along with DAVE, all seem to feel that DAVE is well worth the additional cost versus the Hugo's.


----------



## Whazzzup

bigfatpaulie said:


> I don't know the Hugo (TT or 2) but many people who I trust and have heard them, along with DAVE, all seem to feel that DAVE is well worth the additional cost versus the Hugo's.


Im sure it is, if you want to afford the cost


ecwl said:


> I highly doubt Hugo 2 would level the playing field to make it unnecessary to buy DAVE. Otherwise, Rob Watts would not be lugging around DAVE around the world on airplanes. He could have easily carry a Hugo 2 instead.
> I think recommending people the "best" product in their preferred price range is always challenging. For most people, should we recommend DAVE or Hugo 2? Not sure.
> I think before Hugo 2 came out, I would probably tell people to go with Hugo if they can afford it. If they can't, I'd say go with Mojo. If they can stretch their budget, go with DAVE. If they can't but they can easily afford Hugo TT, I would say Hugo TT is a more than worthwhile upgrade over Hugo that people should go for Hugo TT. However, if people need to stretch their budget to pay for Hugo TT, I'd probably suggest Hugo instead. I think this represents a personal value judgement on prices of DACs and how I value the differences in sonic quality. I don't think there is a right or wrong but it's my personal opinion.
> Not having heard Hugo 2 yet, I'm not sure what my perspective now would be. But even if my perspective were to change, it'll just be one man's opinion.



completely agree


----------



## jlbrach

dave is in a league all its own...i am waiting for blu 2 to hopefully make it even better


----------



## x RELIC x

I've got the Hugo2 tour unit right here. DAVE isn't threatened by it, but the Hugo2 does bring some qualities of the DAVE to the table.


----------



## GreenLeo

seeteeyou said:


> Maybe that reply was more or less like "ear of the beholder" since individual preferences do play a role?
> 
> DAVE could drive HE1000 V2 directly and that's an advantage for those of us who don't own any (preferably ToTL) electrostatic amps.
> 
> ...


I know Attorney has been using BHSE from the other threads.


----------



## GreenLeo

TheAttorney said:


> The short answer is that I'm not going to tell you .
> 
> The longer answer is that I've deliberately not listened to my BHSE/009s for a few months now, as part of my downsizing experiment to see if I can live with DAVE-direct-to-dynamics as a simpler  long term replacement. On the brief occasions when I did compare a while back, I felt that there were some things the electrostatics did that the HEK V2 (or any other dynamics) couldn't quite match. OTOH, much of the time I felt I was listening to the negative effects of inserting  any external amp vs DAVE's direct connection, rather than to the headphone differences. So, swings and roundabouts (as it is with any of these TOTL headhones).
> 
> What I have already confirmed to myself is that I can indeed live indefinitely with DAVE + HEK V2 if that was the only option.  What I have yet to decide  is if I should sell my full electrostatics setup (and therefore complete my downsizing goal), or keep them for SQ, or nostalgia, or seller's remorse reasons. I'll report on that in a few weeks once my HEK new audiophile cables have fully settled in and I thereby give the HEK's as good a fighting chance as they're ever likely to get in this showdown.


I'm certainly looking forward to your report.


----------



## tunes (Jun 26, 2017)

GreenLeo said:


> I know Attorney has been using BHSE from the other threads.





bigfatpaulie said:


> I don't know the Hugo (TT or 2) but many people who I trust and have heard them, along with DAVE, all seem to feel that DAVE is well worth the additional cost versus the Hugo's.



Let's not forget the fact that HUGO2 is transportable relative to DAVE.  If I could move DAVE all over my home and take it with me on long vacations it would be my first choice.  Some folks like the freedom of changing their listing environments especially at home with open back TOTL phones.  Even if DAVE is in a different league than HUGO2, there is the convenience of portability with achieving the best possible SQ of anything out there you could possibly move around easily.  My ultimately plan is to get the HUGO2 for the above reasons and move up to DAVE.  Then again I wonder if HUGO2 plus Blu2 upscaler would best the DAVE alone as another option for home listening.  Now a comparison between DAVE alone and HUGO2 plus Blu2 would be an interesting comparison. Let us know if anyone gets a chance to audition that combination.


----------



## AndrewOld (Jun 26, 2017)

Its an interesting journey .. I went Hugo, Hugo TT, Hugo DAVE and was pleased, amazed and then knocked out by each step. I would hope that as Rob iterates round the loop he learns stuff, not to mention fixes those little details that get left out in the push to meet launch deadlines. So the Davina might be expected to bring something to the table, the M Scaler aspect might have more to go - there are certainly some curious phenomena to explain, for example why is 1m taps so much better than the other options.  And of course there is all the streamer stuff to look forward to, if Chord can get a solid result with the software. Good times.

At least one can hope Chord will never make another CD player! (btw, have you seen that Linn Products, who stopped making CD players years ago, are offering an unconditional discount of €2400  if you swap your old CD mech or preamp for one of their top end streamers. Way to go imo. )


----------



## lovethatsound

AndrewOld said:


> Its an interesting journey .. I went Hugo, Hugo TT, Hugo DAVE and was pleased, amazed and then knocked out by each step. I would hope that as Rob iterates round the loop he learns stuff, not to mention fixes those little details that get left out in the push to meet launch deadlines. So the Davina might be expected to bring something to the table, the M Scaler aspect might have more to go - there are certainly some curious phenomena to explain, for example why is 1m taps so much better than the other options.  And of course there is all the streamer stuff to look forward to, if Chord can get a solid result with the software. Good times.
> 
> At least one can hope Chord will never make another CD player! (btw, have you seen that Linn Products, who stopped making CD players years ago, are offering an unconditional discount of €2400  if you swap your old CD mech or preamp for one of their top end streamers. Way to go imo. )


I don't think chord will give you that sort of a deal,after all the original blu was supposed to be upgradable to blu 2 ,but chord went back on their word with that.


----------



## BunnyNamedCraig

We became official Chord Dave Dealers a couple days ago. Now taking auditions for time with the the beast.

 I tried capturing the natural aura that the Dave exudes....


----------



## Triode User

MTMECraig said:


> We became official Chord Dave Dealers a couple days ago. Now taking auditions for time with the the beast.
> 
> I tried capturing the natural aura that the Dave exudes....



Congratulations. It looks good with the matching stand.


----------



## BunnyNamedCraig

Triode User said:


> Congratulations. It looks good with the matching stand.


Thank you! Mark told me that the Dave with matching stand looks like "pure sex". (excuse me if that offends anyone here). I have to agree with him. Good job Chord on aesthetics as well as sound.


----------



## GreenLeo (Jun 27, 2017)

bigfatpaulie said:


> I also can't/won't answer your question directly, but your question is correct.
> 
> I recently had the opportunity to spend some time with a DIY T2+009 at home with my DAVE.  It's an amazing setup: fast, resolving, detailed up to wazoo.  It is a truly world class rig by anyone's standards.  That said, when I gave it back I walked away knowing, finally, that I am just not a 009 guy.  Some are, and th





AndrewOld said:


> Its an interesting journey .. I went Hugo, Hugo TT, Hugo DAVE and was pleased, amazed and then knocked out by each step. I would hope that as Rob iterates round the loop he learns stuff, not to mention fixes those little details that get left out in the push to meet launch deadlines. So the Davina might be expected to bring something to the table, the M Scaler aspect might have more to go - there are certainly some curious phenomena to explain, for example why is 1m taps so much better than the other options.  And of course there is all the streamer stuff to look forward to, if Chord can get a solid result with the software. Good times.
> 
> At least one can hope Chord will never make another CD player! (btw, have you seen that Linn Products, who stopped making CD players years ago, are offering an unconditional discount of €2400  if you swap your old CD mech or preamp for one of their top end streamers. Way to go imo. )



I guess that the RCA output of Hugo2 may be the weak link.  I like the DAC of HUGO and tried using it as a desktop DAC when it just came out.  Eventually, HUGO remains in the mobile department.


----------



## tunes

GreenLeo said:


> I know Attorney has been using BHSE from the other threads.



Are you implying that the HE1000 V2 cannot be driven sufficiently by the HUGO2 for away from home use?  My understanding was that the HUGO2 was more powerful than the HUGO1 and could drive HEK2??


----------



## Matez

GreenLeo said:


> Is the HEKV2 better than than 009?



It surely is different. And the outcome depends on amplification used.


----------



## Matez

bigfatpaulie said:


> I don't know the Hugo (TT or 2) but many people who I trust and have heard them, along with DAVE, all seem to feel that DAVE is well worth the additional cost versus the Hugo's.



I've heard something along those lines recently as well. Some people who'd heard many TOTL DACs say that DAVE surely is up there with the very best sources available today.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

Whazzzup said:


> Im sure it is, if you want to afford the cost



More than that, what I am meaning to say is that the Hugo2 is not a 'mini DAVE' by any measure.


----------



## GreenLeo

tunes said:


> Are you implying that the HE1000 V2 cannot be driven sufficiently by the HUGO2 for away from home use?  My understanding was that the HUGO2 was more powerful than the HUGO1 and could drive HEK2??



No and I don't care.  What I care is the SQ of HEk V2 vs BHSE+009 when both are driven by DAVE.


----------



## Matez

GreenLeo said:


> No and I don't care.  What I care is the SQ of HEk V2 vs BHSE+009 when both are driven by DAVE.



This seems to be a very reasonable approach


----------



## tunes

bigfatpaulie said:


> More than that, what I am meaning to say is that the Hugo2 is not a 'mini DAVE' by any measure.



So once you have the HUGO2 for portable use would it make sense to move up to the DAVE alone or add the Blu2 Mscaler to the HUGO2? Wouldn't then you have 1 million more taps than the DAVE?


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> So once you have the HUGO2 for portable use would it make sense to move up to the DAVE alone or add the Blu2 Mscaler to the HUGO2? Wouldn't then you have 1 million more taps than the DAVE?



I would have thought that could only be decided upon by listening. There are more influences on the sound that just tap length. eg power supply etc. Hence why HugoTT sounds better than Hugo.


----------



## Beolab (Jun 30, 2017)

Maybe DAVE would sound even better with the SuperCaps from the TT who knows, even thoug i know Rob have said the DAVE are not in need of SuperCaps, but it would be interesting to test out.


----------



## hmartin

Hi @Rob Watts, 

Another question that has been swimming in my head for some time if you don't mind.

So this is about the DX0 inputs on Dave and Hugo2 and home theater (HT) (and possibly implementing digital crossovers) and the volume control commands on the dx0-inputs.

For example, for HT a nice product would be a 5.1 digital pre-amp with 6 channel USB and HDMI inputs and DX0 outputs with volume control so that you could connect 1 Dave and 1 Hugo2 to create a 4.0 HT pre-amp or 1 Dave + 2 Hugo2s for a 5.1 HT pre-amp.

Is this possible i.e. controlling the volume control of a set of Dave/Hugo2s in this way using the DX0 inputs?

Thanks
//Martin


----------



## Rob Watts

hmartin said:


> Hi @Rob Watts,
> 
> Another question that has been swimming in my head for some time if you don't mind.
> 
> ...



Yes it's technically possible, in the future, to add more data to the DX protocol to suit different products. There are plenty of spare bits.


----------



## hmartin

Thanks, so for current Dave it is not supported but it could be added to the dx-protocol in the future.


----------



## paulchiu

Trying to use optical cable from current iMac to DAVE.
can play up to 96 khz but cannot get it to play higher.
can someone show me how to get to higher res?
thanks!


----------



## Triode User (Jul 7, 2017)

paulchiu said:


> Trying to use optical cable from current iMac to DAVE.
> can play up to 96 khz but cannot get it to play higher.
> can someone show me how to get to higher res?
> thanks!



Are the option settings the same for optical and usb? You appear to be on the settings for the built in output ie the internal speakers. My screen shot shows what I get on USB..


----------



## bigfatpaulie

I think the difference here is @paulchiu is using optical and @Triode User is using USB.  I don't if the iMac can output higher than 96khz.  I believe you are seeing a limitation of your Mac, not DAVE, here.


----------



## miketlse

Some optical cables are only capable of 96, and you have to use a better (that could mean shorter, or using glass fibres instead of plastic, or better end caps to the fibres) cable to manage 192.


----------



## Sonic77

Triode User said:


> Are the option settings the same for optical and usb? You appear to be on the settings for the built in output ie the internal speakers. My screen shot shows what I get on USB..


I thought we were talking about optical?


----------



## paulchiu

OK.  good point.  I am using a rather cheap Mapleshade Optical cable 
that could be the reason for the 96khz limit
I will try finding a higher grade and/or shorter optical cable.
in the meantime, does anyone here use the Mapleshade and finding 192khz as an option?





miketlse said:


> Some optical cables are only capable of 96, and you have to use a better (that could mean shorter, or using glass fibres instead of plastic, or better end caps to the fibres) cable to manage 192.


----------



## 514077

paulchiu said:


> OK.  good point.  I am using a rather cheap Mapleshade Optical cable
> that could be the reason for the 96khz limit
> I will try finding a higher grade and/or shorter optical cable.
> in the meantime, does anyone here use the Mapleshade and finding 192khz as an option?


I'm not a DAVE user, but it seems to me that 96,00 is usually the best one can get out of optical.  Rare that one can get higher.


----------



## ecwl

I think it depends on the vintage of the iMac whether 192kHz optical is supported

https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT202730

More importantly, if you're setting output this way, every time you change your music sample rate, you'd have to change your Mac setting. Otherwise you can play 44kHz music and iMac would upsample to 96kHz and feed that the DAVE instead of letting DAVE's superior upsampling kick in at 44kHz


----------



## Triode User

ecwl said:


> I think it depends on the vintage of the iMac whether 192kHz optical is supported
> 
> https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT202730
> 
> More importantly, if you're setting output this way, every time you change your music sample rate, you'd have to change your Mac setting. Otherwise you can play 44kHz music and iMac would upsample to 96kHz and feed that the DAVE instead of letting DAVE's superior upsampling kick in at 44kHz



@paulchiu  My question is what files do you have that require these higher settings?


----------



## paulchiu

I have 24/192 files from HDTracks.  They sound great using USB but I am moving the DAVE farther away from my iMac and servers so needed a really long cord.  I had this 16 feet Mapleshade optical cord that was collecting dust, so i tried it.
The DAVE does make higher rate tracks, as high as DSD512 sound really great down to 44.1 using the optical cord.  Setting it to 96.0 made the sound even clearer so I wonder if 192 would be better still.





Triode User said:


> @paulchiu  My question is what files do you have that require these higher settings?


----------



## Jawed

You could try one of those USB over ethernet contraptions. Though the subject is likely to try your patience and/or wallet.

USB supports 5m cable length:

https://superuser.com/questions/64744/maximum-length-of-a-usb-cable

Now playing: Lisa Cerbone - Manic-Depressive Jubilation


----------



## Triode User

Jawed said:


> You could try one of those USB over ethernet contraptions. Though the subject is likely to try your patience and/or wallet.
> 
> USB supports 5m cable length:
> 
> ...



And of course 5m is just over 16ft so maybe USB would work for what is needed?


----------



## paulchiu

I tried many of those contraptions to the point of exhaustion since I bought the DAVE in early 2016.  Where my other DACs worked fine with a simple USB cord, the Chord DACs like Hugo and DAVE did sound better with a few of these devices.  Still, the differences are minor and the added stuff just getting out of hand.

I ordered a 4M all silver USB cable from Konstantin from Lavricables,  will see how it sounds with the DAVE shortly




Jawed said:


> You could try one of those USB over ethernet contraptions. Though the subject is likely to try your patience and/or wallet.
> 
> USB supports 5m cable length:
> 
> ...


----------



## AndrewC88

paulchiu said:


> I tried many of those contraptions to the point of exhaustion ...




Try the Corning USB Optical cable. It works very well. Doesn't provide completely galvanic isolation, but DAVE's USB's pretty good anyway.

https://www.amazon.com/Optical-Cabl...499482703&sr=8-1&keywords=corning+usb+optical


----------



## Paul Bjernklo (Jul 8, 2017)

AndrewC88 said:


> Try the Corning USB Optical cable. It works very well. Doesn't provide completely galvanic isolation, but DAVE's USB's pretty good anyway.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Optical-Cabl...499482703&sr=8-1&keywords=corning+usb+optical



I would recommend Sysconcept optical cables from Canada which are great value and do 24/192 with the Hugo... 3 m cable i am using so should work with Dave as well.  I am based in UK and got the cable quite quickly.


----------



## paulchiu

Paul Bjernklo said:


> I would recommend Sysconcept optical cables from Canada which are great value and do 24/192 with the Hugo... 3 m cable i am using so should work with Dave as well.  I am based in UK and got the cable quite quickly.



Is this the one?
http://www.sysconcept.ca/product_info.php?products_id=366&osCsid=nmmekug7i9r0bpnc7k2fptriq0


----------



## Paul Bjernklo (Jul 8, 2017)

paulchiu said:


> Is this the one?
> http://www.sysconcept.ca/product_info.php?products_id=366&osCsid=nmmekug7i9r0bpnc7k2fptriq0



Hi: I used normal Toslink connectors (CD player to Hugo) and not the mini one as per your link so depends what you need. This is what I ordered: http://www.sysconcept.ca/product_info.php?products_id=364

This is the name:

1 x 1300-strands 24/192, Toslink Prem. Optical Cable 0.05 to 15m
_ - Connector Color: Silver_
_ - Length: 3m_

They also have all other kind of connectors which will take time to find what you want...

Edit: To be honest looking at your link (the picture) it seems that it is the same product as per my link. I am not sure what connectors there are in your link, but my link has the normal Toslink connectors (not the Mini that DAPs often have) so depends what you need.

Paul


----------



## tunes

paulchiu said:


> Is this the one?
> http://www.sysconcept.ca/product_info.php?products_id=366&osCsid=nmmekug7i9r0bpnc7k2fptriq0





Paul Bjernklo said:


> I would recommend Sysconcept optical cables from Canada which are great value and do 24/192 with the Hugo... 3 m cable i am using so should work with Dave as well.  I am based in UK and got the cable quite quickly.



But isn't the Sysconcept plastic and not glass fibers?  There seems to be some controversies with regard glass fibers and their superior transmisssion versus plastic. Does anyone have a definitive answer about utilizing glass or plastic fibers and durability for portable use like with the HUGO2?


----------



## x RELIC x

tunes said:


> But isn't the Sysconcept plastic and not glass fibers?  There seems to be some controversies with regard glass fibers and their superior transmisssion versus plastic. Does anyone have a definitive answer about utilizing glass or plastic fibers and durability for portable use like with the HUGO2?



The Sysconcept optical cables are very well built. They can have bends of 90° (which you can't do with glass) and still transmit 24/192kHz music. They use many micro strands of high quality and polished lenses that don't interfere with the transmition and practically eliminate modal dispersion. I've used one for the Mojo for the past year and a half and I used it with the Hugo2 on tour. No issues whatsoever.

Absolutely no worries with the Sysconcept cable IMO.


----------



## tunes

x RELIC x said:


> The Sysconcept optical cables are very well built. They can have bends of 90° (which you can't do with glass) and still transmit 24/192kHz music. They use many micro strands of high quality and polished lenses that don't interfere with the transmition and practically eliminate modal dispersion. I've used one for the Mojo for the past year and a half and I used it with the Hugo2 on tour. No issues whatsoever.
> 
> Absolutely no worries with the Sysconcept cable IMO.


Excellent.  What length would I need to go from HUGO2 to source strapped to the HUGO??


----------



## paulchiu

Does anyone here have the DAVE stand with the shiny nickel chrome legs?
What do you use to remove the haze besides the tiny cloth included?

Thanks!


----------



## zimzim2001

I'm thinking of joining the Dave club.  From what I can gather, USB is the preferred input.
I'm currently using Woo WA5 LE (old version) which is single ended.  Is single ended out from the Dave equal to XLR balanced out?  I'm wondering if I might have to get a balanced amp to get the full benefits from Dave.


----------



## maxh22

zimzim2001 said:


> I'm thinking of joining the Dave club.  From what I can gather, USB is the preferred input.
> I'm currently using Woo WA5 LE (old version) which is single ended.  Is single ended out from the Dave equal to XLR balanced out?  I'm wondering if I might have to get a balanced amp to get the full benefits from Dave.



Single ended mode is actually more transparent than the balanced mode.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

zimzim2001 said:


> I'm wondering if I might have to get a balanced amp to get the full benefits from Dave.



Why would you think that?  DAVE is a single ended DAC.


----------



## zimzim2001

bigfatpaulie said:


> Why would you think that?  DAVE is a single ended DAC.


Thank you Paulie, I didn't even know that.  Well I guess there's nothing to hold me back now, LOL.


----------



## zimzim2001

maxh22 said:


> Single ended mode is actually more transparent than the balanced mode.


Good to know, thanks.


----------



## Triode User

zimzim2001 said:


> I'm thinking of joining the Dave club.  From what I can gather, USB is the preferred input.
> I'm currently using Woo WA5 LE (old version) which is single ended.  Is single ended out from the Dave equal to XLR balanced out?  I'm wondering if I might have to get a balanced amp to get the full benefits from Dave.



Rob Watts has always said that the sound from the RCA output of the Dave is superior to the balanced output. I think it is marginal though and I use the balanced output to my pre amp because I happen to have balanced cables of the right length.


----------



## paulchiu

zimzim2001 said:


> I'm thinking of joining the Dave club.  From what I can gather, USB is the preferred input.
> I'm currently using Woo WA5 LE (old version) which is single ended.  Is single ended out from the Dave equal to XLR balanced out?  I'm wondering if I might have to get a balanced amp to get the full benefits from Dave.



Tried feeding the DAVE via XLR outputs to a few balanced amps including the Moon 430 and HeadAmp GS-X mk2 and noticed some minor differences when using Abyss and Utopia but pretty much nothing with other cans.  Whatever more power was gained using DAVE this way was not worth the slight decrease in clarity.  Cleanness of the DAVE sound.  So in short, I do not recommend connecting your DAVE to another amp.

paul


----------



## x RELIC x

Yeah, all Chord DACs are single ended and the XLR is there for convenience. Rob's goal is transparency and even adding the components for the XLR out reduces transparency according to what he's posted on the matter (he's posted solid reasons why SE is better than balanced with his DACs). That said, if the XLR input on the amp side of things (if you must use an amp) is much better than the SE input then that may be the better option.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

paulchiu said:


> Tried feeding the DAVE via XLR outputs to a few balanced amps including the Moon 430 and HeadAmp GS-X mk2 and noticed some minor differences when using Abyss and Utopia but pretty much nothing with other cans.  Whatever more power was gained using DAVE this way was not worth the slight decrease in clarity.  Cleanness of the DAVE sound.  So in short, I do not recommend connecting your DAVE to another amp.
> 
> paul




I absolutely 100% second that - especially with something like a GSX MKII (I tried exactly that).  

The exception, however, is sometimes I crave that lovely sound that only valves can provide.  I know there is a loss of transparency, blah blah blah, but I am too in love with tubey goodness so it is well worth it on special occasions for me.


----------



## tunes

bigfatpaulie said:


> I absolutely 100% second that - especially with something like a GSX MKII (I tried exactly that).
> 
> The exception, however, is sometimes I crave that lovely sound that only valves can provide.  I know there is a loss of transparency, blah blah blah, but I am too in love with tubey goodness so it is well worth it on special occasions for me.



Here are some nice valves
*Sennheiser HE 1*
*Is the DAC or DACs as good or better than the DAVE??*


----------



## thunder 99

Hello everyone

I have recently acquired a set of Wilson Audio's; Just wondering what your suggestion would be for an amp sounding good with the Wilsons as well as the DAVE. The DAVE works wonders with headphones via the headphones out but I am having trouble finding a matching amp for it which also provides good synergy with the Wilson Audios. From my experience, I feel DAVE lacks synergy with tube amps (at least 300B SET amps such as the WA5LE mentioned earlier) which make the final timbre of sound a bit nasal and artificial sounding as well as accentuating the treble to harshness whereas I guess I would prefer a more midrange focused sound (sounding a bit more analogue). So I was thinking solid state amps but unsure of which one to trial. Dont have that much in the form of budget and was thinking either Passlabs / Gryphon or Chord. But am open to other suggestions.

What do you guys feel works best, with both Wilsons, as well as THE DAVE to contribute to that overall magical synergy that my system clearly lacks.

Thanks
thunder


----------



## Triode User

thunder 99 said:


> Hello everyone
> 
> I have recently acquired a set of Wilson Audio's; Just wondering what your suggestion would be for an amp sounding good with the Wilsons as well as the DAVE. The DAVE works wonders with headphones via the headphones out but I am having trouble finding a matching amp for it which also provides good synergy with the Wilson Audios. From my experience, I feel DAVE lacks synergy with tube amps (at least 300B SET amps such as the WA5LE mentioned earlier) which make the final timbre of sound a bit nasal and artificial sounding as well as accentuating the treble to harshness whereas I guess I would prefer a more midrange focused sound (sounding a bit more analogue). So I was thinking solid state amps but unsure of which one to trial. Dont have that much in the form of budget and was thinking either Passlabs / Gryphon or Chord. But am open to other suggestions.
> 
> ...



Well done on getting the Wilson Audios. It might help to get advice if you can say what model they are.


----------



## thunder 99

Thanks. Its a used WP6. Im new to speakers so figured to go used to begin with and work out what are the components needed to make good sound from a speaker.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I use XLR with Dave connected to Chord SPM 1200 MkII. I use Chord Sarum Tuned Aray XLR connectors about £2k a pair. I tried the upgraded Chord Super Aray Single ended connectors not so long ago in order to see how single ended faired with the Dave. This was a slightly better cable than the Tuned Aray but the very slight improvement in presentation paled into insignificance compared to the drop in dynamics i experienced with the single ended solution. 

Now as with all things HIFI there is never a definitive answer to this question because someone with easily driven monitor speakers may well be better off using single ended connectors. However if you have bigger speakers to drive then I would always go for XLR. The Chord design in Dave feeds more power to the XLR connection.


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I use XLR with Dave connected to Chord SPM 1200 MkII. I use Chord Sarum Tuned Aray XLR connectors about £2k a pair. I tried the upgraded Chord Super Aray Single ended connectors not so long ago in order to see how single ended faired with the Dave. This was a slightly better cable than the Tuned Aray but the very slight improvement in presentation paled into insignificance compared to the drop in dynamics i experienced with the single ended solution.
> 
> Now as with all things HIFI there is never a definitive answer to this question because someone with easily driven monitor speakers may well be better off using single ended connectors. However if you have bigger speakers to drive then I would always go for XLR. The Chord design in Dave feeds more power to the XLR connection.



It may be me that is being confused but surely the voltage/power output from the Dave has got nothing whatsoever to do with how easily the speakers are to drive (ie how efficient they are) unless you are attempting to drive the speakers direct from Dave. Of course if you are using a Chord SPM 1200 Mk2 then you are using this to drive the speakers and surely as long as the Dave gives enough voltage output to then that is all that matters. The efficiency of the speakers really only affects the power/integrated amplifier selection and not the Dac or which output to use from the Dac. 

You say _"However if you have bigger speakers to drive then I would always go for XLR."_  but in reality it is usually smaller speakers that are less efficient and often it is the bigger speakers that are easier to drive. In any case, as I said, what sort of speakers are being used has nothing at all to do (as far as I know) with whether to use the RCA or balanced output from the Dave.

Just as an aside and I am sure most people know but the Chord cable company has nothing at all to do with the Chord electronics company.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Triode User said:


> It may be me that is being confused but surely the voltage/power output from the Dave has got nothing whatsoever to do with how easily the speakers are to drive (ie how efficient they are) unless you are attempting to drive the speakers direct from Dave. Of course if you are using a Chord SPM 1200 Mk2 then you are using this to drive the speakers and surely as long as the Dave gives enough voltage output to then that is all that matters. The efficiency of the speakers really only affects the power/integrated amplifier selection and not the Dac or which output to use from the Dac.
> 
> You say _"However if you have bigger speakers to drive then I would always go for XLR."_  but in reality it is usually smaller speakers that are less efficient and often it is the bigger speakers that are easier to drive. In any case, as I said, what sort of speakers are being used has nothing at all to do (as far as I know) with whether to use the RCA or balanced output from the Dave.
> 
> Just as an aside and I am sure most people know but the Chord cable company has nothing at all to do with the Chord electronics company.




You may well be right about it having no affect on the amp output to speakers. I jumped to that conclusion as there is a clear difference in dynamic rendition. If not that I do not know why. Regarding your second point, I disagree in that the recommended power rating for larger speakers is higher than monitors. I wasn't talking about efficiency.


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> You may well be right about it having no affect on the amp output to speakers. I jumped to that conclusion as there is a clear difference in dynamic rendition. If not that I do not know why. Regarding your second point, I disagree in that the recommended power rating for larger speakers is higher than monitors. I wasn't talking about efficiency.



Do not confuse power rating of speakers with the realistic power requirement to drive those speakers. You may not have been talking about efficiency with regard to speakers but it is important. I see that your large speakers are in fact quite efficient (or at least they are not inefficient!) and I have driven similar efficiency speakers quite easily with 15w valve amps.

I hope you do not mind but I looked at your profile page to see what speakers you have. I see that you have a Music First pre amp so you are obviously a man of taste even though I happen to think that the Classic Silver wound V2 is better than the Baby Reference mk II.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I recently sold it, in favour of Dave's pre


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I recently sold it, in favour of Dave's pre



I wanted to sell mine but I found that the Dave direct to the power amps was inferior to going through the Music First. The music lost quite a bit of resolution, scale and sound stage when going direct from the Dave to my power amps. The bass was particularly affected and became muddy without the Music First.

It would be expected though that Dave has been designed to go direct into a Chord power amp and that would give the best for that combination.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

To be honest I found almost the exact opposite with Dave's pre being cleaner, more detailed. It made the MF pre sound a little flabby, as good as the MF pre is the Dave pre was definitely a better fit for my system. I am still a fan of Music First though. I think they make some of the best analogue pre's out there.


----------



## Triode User

Yep, exact opposites. I keep the Dave (with Blu2) at around +3dB or even +5dB and then use the preamp to adjust the volume. Anyway, glad we are both happy.


----------



## tunes

thunder 99 said:


> Hello everyone
> 
> I have recently acquired a set of Wilson Audio's; Just wondering what your suggestion would be for an amp sounding good with the Wilsons as well as the DAVE. The DAVE works wonders with headphones via the headphones out but I am having trouble finding a matching amp for it which also provides good synergy with the Wilson Audios. From my experience, I feel DAVE lacks synergy with tube amps (at least 300B SET amps such as the WA5LE mentioned earlier) which make the final timbre of sound a bit nasal and artificial sounding as well as accentuating the treble to harshness whereas I guess I would prefer a more midrange focused sound (sounding a bit more analogue). So I was thinking solid state amps but unsure of which one to trial. Dont have that much in the form of budget and was thinking either Passlabs / Gryphon or Chord. But am open to other suggestions.
> 
> ...



Which Wilson speakers?


----------



## tunes

Triode User said:


> Yep, exact opposites. I keep the Dave (with Blu2) at around +3dB or even +5dB and then use the preamp to adjust the volume. Anyway, glad we are both happy.


What about using a set of powered speakers with DAVE?  Focal SM9?  Near field speakers that allow you to take off the cans for in room music to share. 

What about the Wilson Sophias?  But they would need an amplifier and preamplifier adding noise to the system.


----------



## zimzim2001

Has anyone heard MSB Analog?  I have one here on loan for a week.  This one has the Power Base.  I listened just briefly and my initial impression is it's smoother than my Vega, which is to be expected.  How does it compare to Dave?


----------



## Deftone

tunes said:


> Here are some nice valves
> *Sennheiser HE 1
> Is the DAC or DACs as good or better than the DAVE??*



I think it's @raypin that has a Dave with his HE1, iirc (odly) he can barely tell a difference between the built in sabre 9018 and Chord Dave.


----------



## Triode User (Jul 12, 2017)

tunes said:


> What about using a set of powered speakers with DAVE?  Focal SM9?  Near field speakers that allow you to take off the cans for in room music to share.
> 
> What about the Wilson Sophias?  But they would need an amplifier and preamplifier adding noise to the system.



I'm not swopping my glorious Spendor SP200 speakers for anything else. In fact I'm not swopping my amps either because they sound amazing. A little bit of noise from the amp is not a problem and in any case is a lot less than the background noise (often tape hiss or similar) on many tracks including recently recorded stuff.

In fact I am so happy with my system that I will not be tinkering for a long time. (Perhaps 2 weeks or even longer!  )

Blu2 > Dave > Music First Pre > Icon Audio MB845Mk2M monos > Spendor SP200 speakers.

Perfection.


----------



## Triode User

zimzim2001 said:


> Has anyone heard MSB Analog?  I have one here on loan for a week.  This one has the Power Base.  I listened just briefly and my initial impression is it's smoother than my Vega, which is to be expected.  How does it compare to Dave?



The MSB Analog is well reviewed. I have not heard it so cannot compare to Dave but I have not heard anything that can rival Dave for the amount of resolution and detail without being harsh.


----------



## GreenLeo

Triode User said:


> The MSB Analog is well reviewed. I have not heard it so cannot compare to Dave but I have not heard anything that can rival Dave for the amount of resolution and detail without being harsh.



I believe in this thread the MSB Analog has been mentioned somewhere and DAVE is clearly in a different league.


----------



## Triode User

GreenLeo said:


> I believe in this thread the MSB Analog has been mentioned somewhere and DAVE is clearly in a different league.



@zimzim2001 
I have now found a few posts on Head-Fi where people have listened to the Dave and the MSB Analog. The Dave comes out on top.


----------



## paradoxper

The MSB Analog has been nothing to write home about. Specifically in comparison to a plethora of other DACs rather than just DAVE.


----------



## zimzim2001

Triode User said:


> @zimzim2001
> I have now found a few posts on Head-Fi where people have listened to the Dave and the MSB Analog. The Dave comes out on top.


I assumed as much, as I listen to the Analog it is clearly in another league from my Vega, if the Dave beats this I'm going to be a very happy camper once I finally do pull the trigger.


----------



## zimzim2001

paradoxper said:


> The MSB Analog has been nothing to write home about. Specifically in comparison to a plethora of other DACs rather than just DAVE.


Other than Dave, what beats the Analog in that price range or less?


----------



## paradoxper

From what I've brought in or heard: Yggdrasil, Ares, Directstream, Pavane and M1. I'd wager the likes of Spring DAC or Soekris could give the Analog a real run for its money.


----------



## zimzim2001

paradoxper said:


> From what I've brought in or heard: Yggdrasil, Ares, Directstream, Pavane and M1. I'd wager the likes of Spring DAC or Soekris could give the Analog a real run for its money.


I see you have a Yggy and previously owned Dave.  Does the Yggy compete with Dave in any way?


----------



## paradoxper

zimzim2001 said:


> I see you have a Yggy and previously owned Dave.  Does the Yggy compete with Dave in any way?



Absolutely. They're both equals IMO. I would definitely recommend you demo them in your system and come to your own conclusions, however.


----------



## jlbrach

not even close,i owned the yiggy and sold it for a dave and have never looked back...to me the hugo was better than the yiggy but thats me


----------



## zimzim2001

paradoxper said:


> Absolutely. They're both equals IMO. I would definitely recommend you demo them in your system and come to your own conclusions, however.


I would love to demo the both of them, but it's very difficult.  Have to go to NYC (I'm near Boston) to actually hear a Dave, and as far as I know there are no Schiit storefront dealers.  That's high praise for the Yggy.


----------



## zimzim2001

jlbrach said:


> not even close,i owned the yiggy and sold it for a dave and have never looked back...to me the hugo was better than the yiggy but thats me


Most people say it's not very close, and you wouldn't expect it to be.  But YMMV, like everything else in this hobby.


----------



## tunes (Jul 13, 2017)

zimzim2001 said:


> Most people say it's not very close, and you wouldn't expect it to be.  But YMMV, like everything else in this hobby.


Does the DAVE need to be on 24/7 to sound its best like the Schiits miltibit DACS!!


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> Does the DAVE need to be on 24/7 to sound its best like the Schiits miltibit DACS!!



I don't know because I always leave my Dave on 24/7 just the same way I do with my ss amp. In my experience most kit goes 'phut' on switch on or switch off so that's why I leave ss kit on.


----------



## rgs9200m

Just curious if the Dave generates more heat than the TT. I keep my TT under my desk so I don't like to heat up that space. The TT is nice and cool. Thanks.


----------



## Triode User

rgs9200m said:


> Just curious if the Dave generates more heat than the TT. I keep my TT under my desk so I don't like to heat up that space. The TT is nice and cool. Thanks.



The Dave can run quite warm.


----------



## paradoxper

zimzim2001 said:


> I would love to demo the both of them, but it's very difficult.  Have to go to NYC (I'm near Boston) to actually hear a Dave, and as far as I know there are no Schiit storefront dealers.  That's high praise for the Yggy.



I'd say well worth the trip. Both surpassed the Analog. Both play with the Signature. 

The DAVE is 1. too ugly to be my choice of gear and 2. easily surpassed by the BADA Ref 2. The Yggdrasil is just my reserve.


----------



## jlbrach

I have not heard the BADA Ref 2 but isnt it twice as expensive as the Dave?....my guess is the dave holds it own and with the Blu 2 which I eagerly await it probably does more than that


----------



## paradoxper

Why is price the number 1 factor? The Dave isn't quadruple better than X.

The Ref 2 is the best I've heard by a wide margin; one that is appreciable to my ears, hence why DAVE is gone.

Enjoy your Blu 2.


----------



## lovethatsound

tunes said:


> Does the DAVE need to be on 24/7 to sound its best like the Schiits miltibit DACS!!


Dave does not need to be on 24/7 to sound it's best,it takes about 10 mins from a cold start.also you can put Dave in standby if you wish.


----------



## Whazzzup

jlbrach said:


> I have not heard the BADA Ref 2 but isnt it twice as expensive as the Dave?....my guess is the dave holds it own and with the Blu 2 which I eagerly await it probably does more than that


Im sure you will like blu, antipodes dsgt transformed my TT, the single biggest impact on sound in my chain.


----------



## Triode User

paradoxper said:


> Why is price the number 1 factor? The Dave isn't quadruple better than X.
> 
> The Ref 2 is the best I've heard by a wide margin; one that is appreciable to my ears, hence why DAVE is gone.
> 
> Enjoy your Blu 2.



The thing is that we all look for different things in the music we play and how it sounds through the kit we use.  People have told me before that x or y is better than z but there is only one way to find out and that is to listen ones self. 

Enjoy the Ref2. I *do* enjoy my Blu2.


----------



## Whazzzup

lovethatsound said:


> Dave does not need to be on 24/7 to sound it's best,it takes about 10 mins from a cold start.also you can put Dave in standby if you wish.


the schiits need lots of warm up burn in. I accidentally stepped in a thread and mentioned it must be a pain to know when or not your sound is optimal. Well found out soon that it was a schiit thread under a different name and got a quick solid jab to the nose. Took the high road tho, walked away.


----------



## paradoxper

Triode User said:


> The thing is that we all look for different things in the music we play and how it sounds through the kit we use.  People have told me before that x or y is better than z but there is only one way to find out and that is to listen ones self.
> 
> Enjoy the Ref2. I *do* enjoy my Blu2.



Yes, however, price is no correlation to performance, so why even bring it up to begin with. Logical fallacy.

Everyone should find their own truths, indeed.


----------



## zimzim2001

paradoxper said:


> I'd say well worth the trip. Both surpassed the Analog. Both play with the Signature.
> 
> The DAVE is 1. too ugly to be my choice of gear and 2. easily surpassed by the BADA Ref 2. The Yggdrasil is just my reserve.


At this point I'm thinking why not just buy Dave blind, what are the odds I'm not going to love it.  Possible but not very likely.  It might also enable me to sell my WA5 LE if I conclude straight out of Dave is superior.  I might not need the amp anymore with my HD800, LCD-3 and PS1000.  Also thinking of getting a Utopia, straight out of Dave is supposed to be most excellent.


----------



## paradoxper

zimzim2001 said:


> At this point I'm thinking why not just buy Dave blind, what are the odds I'm not going to love it.  Possible but not very likely.  It might also enable me to sell my WA5 LE if I conclude straight out of Dave is superior.  I might not need the amp anymore with my HD800, LCD-3 and PS1000.  Also thinking of getting a Utopia, straight out of Dave is supposed to be most excellent.



The DAVE is world-class amongst many others. Most of the time, at a certain level, you are splitting hairs, at least IME.


----------



## zimzim2001

paradoxper said:


> The DAVE is world-class amongst many others. Most of the time, at a certain level, you are splitting hairs, at least IME.


If I did a lot of auditioning, I guess I could slightly prefer one DAC over another in that price range.  But the thing that makes Dave possibly more attractive than the others is that with a lot of headphones that aren't power hungry, many people like to go straight out of Dave for more transparency, the amp is not preferred.


----------



## Triode User

paradoxper said:


> Yes, however, price is no correlation to performance, so why even bring it up to begin with. Logical fallacy.
> 
> Everyone should find their own truths, indeed.



Err, I didn't mention price.


----------



## paradoxper

Triode User said:


> Err, I didn't mention price.



Ha. No, you did not. Curse you jibrach!


----------



## jlbrach

price does matter because people have to make decisions regarding finances...a 10K product is easier to purchase than a 20K one.....I cannot dispute your subjective opinion...that said a car costing 40K would be expected to be better than one costing 20K...all that said I cannot imagine MUCH better than Dave


----------



## paradoxper

jlbrach said:


> price does matter because people have to make decisions regarding finances...a 10K product is easier to purchase than a 20K one.....I cannot dispute your subjective opinion...that said a car costing 40K would be expected to be better than one costing 20K...all that said I cannot imagine MUCH better than Dave



That context is very much living within your means rather than the implication of more expensive is better. The issue simply is generalizing as there will always be examples of
less expensive gear sounding great, etc and more expensive gear sounding like ass, etc.


----------



## GreenLeo

paradoxper said:


> Absolutely. They're both equals IMO. I would definitely recommend you demo them in your system and come to your own conclusions, however.


I own both and prefer DAVE definitely.  I use USB as the input for the two DACs.


----------



## GreenLeo

Triode User said:


> The Dave can run quite warm.


I concur but never too hot to touch.


----------



## paradoxper

GreenLeo said:


> I own both and prefer DAVE definitely.  I use USB as the input for the two DACs.



Perhaps that's a contributing factor. With all the converter craze, etc it muddies the playing field. I am exclusively using AES.


----------



## GreenLeo

zimzim2001 said:


> At this point I'm thinking why not just buy Dave blind, what are the odds I'm not going to love it.  Possible but not very likely.  It might also enable me to sell my WA5 LE if I conclude straight out of Dave is superior.  I might not need the amp anymore with my HD800, LCD-3 and PS1000.  Also thinking of getting a Utopia, straight out of Dave is supposed to be most excellent.



If possible, try audition first.  

I bought my DAVE blind because there was no local Chord dealer at vicinity that will carry DAVE.  I learnt, from the impressions of other users, that DAVE excels at live concerts which is my genre and made the leap.  It's been with me for a few months now and every time I switch it on I smile.  However, for albums that each of the parts was recorded in a studio and then mixed, I guess a lesser DAC can do the job equally well.


----------



## astrostar59

I found the type of output to the DAC affects things a LOT. Especially from a PC or music server. I have grown to hate USB. I currently output Ethernet - Rednet - SPDIF or AES - DAC. The upgrade dong that was more mares than any DACs I demoed over the last year. That and ridding everything of any SMPS in Rednet, Mac MIni and ext Drive. I output from my DAC direct to Carbon amp or my speaker power amps via a passive pre-amplifier. 
I have read the SPDIF on the Yggy is better than USB input, and on the C1 better on Ethernet, on Audio Note DACs better on SPDIF. If Mike at Chord is saying not too upsample before the DAVE, SPDIf limited to 192k is not an issue.


----------



## Whazzzup

antipodes audio usb from external server running roon core is something i think folks need to listen too and evaluate, but I'm sure there are many other brands and methods.


----------



## ecwl

astrostar59 said:


> I found the type of output to the DAC affects things a LOT.


I think since DAVE's BNC & AES? inputs are not galvanically isolated, I find them to sound worse than USB and Toslink, unless your source absolutely has extremely low noise. I generally unplug my Blu-ray BNC source to DAVE when listening to music from USB PC to improve sound quality.


----------



## lovethatsound (Jul 15, 2017)

For those of you that can get the bbc i player,their's a great treat for you and your headphones.You want doctor who,and the episode called Knock knock,this
 episode was recorded for headphone users and sounds great with the dave,and in fact sounds good just using your tv headphone out,ENJOY


----------



## Beolab (Jul 16, 2017)

I am a reseller of MSB, Chord , DCS , PS Audio , T+A, AMR and a few more brands.

The MSB Analog with the upgraded power supply got a great very fluid sound, but not the same impact dynamic resolution as DAVE or the bottom end is very weak against DAVE, it is not in the same league. You have to compare the DAVE with the more expensive MSB line. 
The DCS Rossini DAC (25.000 dollar) got some greatness when it comes to precision, timing, correctness with great dynamics and detail that i haven't heard elsewhere, but it is maybe to neutral bright for some, but a great DAC overall.
DAVE its the best sound-technically, but it is as always a matter of taste in the end, and it is the king up to 20.000 dollars from what i have heard and compared to.


----------



## rkt31

@Beolab, have you compared Dave + Blu 2 combo with these expensive DACs ?


----------



## Beolab

rkt31 said:


> @Beolab, have you compared Dave + Blu 2 combo with these expensive DACs ?



Unfortunately not yet, but as soon as i get my hands on one i will do.


----------



## emrelights1973

ıs any one using Dave with a Naim power amp? using is as a pre as well? can a dave/blu2 combo replace my nac272 and be an addition to NAP300?


----------



## zimzim2001

Beolab said:


> I am a reseller of MSB, Chord , DCS , PS Audio , T+A, AMR and a few more brands.
> 
> The MSB Analog with the upgraded power supply got a great very fluid sound, but not the same impact dynamic resolution as DAVE or the bottom end is very weak against DAVE, it is not in the same league. You have to compare the DAVE with the more expensive MSB line.
> The DCS Rossini DAC (25.000 dollar) got some greatness when it comes to precision, timing, correctness with great dynamics and detail that i haven't heard elsewhere, but it is maybe to neutral bright for some, but a great DAC overall.
> DAVE its the best sound-technically, but it is as always a matter of taste in the end, and it is the king up to 20.000 dollars from what i have heard and compared to.


My Dave wiill be on the way soon, order will be placed tomorrow.  I still have the Analog here (with Power Base) and it's obviously a huge upgrade from my Vega, as you say it's very smooth and liquid.  I'm quite confident Dave will beat it though.  Any suggestions for a good power cord for Dave?  I currently have a Shunyata Venom 3, which is an upgrade over stock, but I think Dave might need better.


----------



## ecwl

emrelights1973 said:


> ıs any one using Dave with a Naim power amp? using is as a pre as well? can a dave/blu2 combo replace my nac272 and be an addition to NAP300?


Hmmm... depends on how you use nac n272. My guess is actually no.
You can hook DAVE directly into NAP300 with a special cable to convert DAVE RCA to Naim XLR which is some weird Naim specific XLR input. That would give you the best sound but DAVE is not an analog preamp. So if you still have cassettes or vinyl connected to your NAC N272, you're out of luck.
And then there's the streamer part of NAC N272. DAVE and Blu2 are not streamers. So I presume you're not playing a CD into NAC N272 via Toslink or coaxial. So you would still need N272 as a streamer and then use its S/PDIF output to feed Blu2 or DAVE. Or you can sell the N272 and buy a cheaper streamer to connect to Blu2/DAVE via USB instead. But then different streamer will also probably mean a different user interface.
Naim is very smart at locking you into Naim. Maybe even better than Apple...


----------



## Triode User

zimzim2001 said:


> My Dave wiill be on the way soon, order will be placed tomorrow.  I still have the Analog here (with Power Base) and it's obviously a huge upgrade from my Vega, as you say it's very smooth and liquid.  I'm quite confident Dave will beat it though.  Any suggestions for a good power cord for Dave?  I currently have a Shunyata Venom 3, which is an upgrade over stock, but I think Dave might need better.



The power chord that comes with Dave is fine. Save your money towards  Blu2.


----------



## Jawed

I'm pretty sure the consensus on the Naim forum is that Naim power amps require the pre-amp to sound best. I don't think anyone has reported preferring direct into a Naim power amp from DAVE.

This isn't something unique to Naim power amps. It's pretty hard to find someone who prefers DAVE into a power amp direct, to be honest, no matter what make of power amp.

I think it's a pretty serious design flaw with any power amp that it requires a pre-amp. There's clearly something funky going on, but I have no idea what. 

Now playing: Josh T Pearson - Sorry with a Song


----------



## GryphonGuy

zimzim2001 said:


> My Dave wiill be on the way soon, order will be placed tomorrow.  I still have the Analog here (with Power Base) and it's obviously a huge upgrade from my Vega, as you say it's very smooth and liquid.  I'm quite confident Dave will beat it though.  Any suggestions for a good power cord for Dave?  I currently have a Shunyata Venom 3, which is an upgrade over stock, but I think Dave might need better.



You don't NEED better but when you hear Shunyata Alpha Digital and even Shunyata Sigma HC (with VooDoo silver adapter) the DAVE is SUBLIME. I hated myself for trying the Sigma HC on the DAVE. My wallet did too.

I currently run DAVE using Shunyata Denali with the Sigma HC feeding the Denali and the Alpha Digital feeding DAVE. I have the microrendu on the network with a Kimber KS-2436 USB into the DAVE and the Utopias direct into the DAVE. This is quite good for convenience. ROON Software drives this setup.

If I want to work on the computer and listen or even listen absolutely critically, then I use direct USB from workstation to DAVE and I plug the Sigma HC and VooDoo silver adapter into the Double-online Eaton UPS and receive sublime sound unequalled by anything in my 30 odd years in this hobby. Oh and the direct USB software is HQPlayer but without any up-sampling or noise shaping. I find any tampering by HQPlayer kills the atmosphere of the recording (truncates note decays, timbre is less real).

The differences between the network and direct USB setups is small but very noticeable in the microdetails, small signal reproduction and particularly timbre of instruments.

I hope this helps. Of course YMMV.

Cheers
GG


----------



## GryphonGuy

I should have added that let DAVE run-in (or burn-in) for a couple of weeks of normal listening before you start to play with power cables etc. My setup preferences changed as DAVE changed (or my interpretation of DAVE changed).

Cheers
GG


----------



## Beolab

zimzim2001 said:


> My Dave wiill be on the way soon, order will be placed tomorrow.  I still have the Analog here (with Power Base) and it's obviously a huge upgrade from my Vega, as you say it's very smooth and liquid.  I'm quite confident Dave will beat it though.  Any suggestions for a good power cord for Dave?  I currently have a Shunyata Venom 3, which is an upgrade over stock, but I think Dave might need better.



Save your money

A regenerator like PS Audio PowerPlant , Taurus , Isotek could be a step up from my testings, it become more calm, but you loose slightly in the ultra high resolution from my testings. But it is very subtle. 

So keep your cable and save for the Blu instead, because the power supply is a switched version and not as sensitive at all, it can instead pollute your other sensitive source products downstream, and here it can be a good choice to use a power regenerator to shield them from the switching power supply in DAVE and Blu.


----------



## rkt31

I would suggest a custom made power cord from furutech bulk cable. a such cord costing about $750 will easily compete with even the most expensive power cord on earth, reason is simple the technology used in their bulk power cable is far far superior than branded cables. furutech is supplier to many expensive cable brands. these brands simply put a jacket on the cable to hide furutech label on cable outer sheath. oyaide is other such brand supplying bulk cables


----------



## rkt31

I am using all furutech bulk cable interconnect and power cord with my Hugo and benchmark ahb2 combo . I have put few ferrite cores on power cable and digital cable . each and every added ferrite core seem to make the background blacker which initially gives the impression of added softness and loss of dynamics but in reality there is in increase in dynamics because you now can listen at slightly higher volumes. can't explain the exact science behind the effect but the cheap trick of using ferrite cores on power and digital cables is proving to be extremely effective.


----------



## Triode User (Jul 17, 2017)

rkt31 said:


> I am using all furutech bulk cable interconnect and power cord with my Hugo and benchmark ahb2 combo . I have put few ferrite cores on power cable and digital cable . each and every added ferrite core seem to make the background blacker which initially gives the impression of added softness and loss of dynamics but in reality there is in increase in dynamics because you now can listen at slightly higher volumes. can't explain the exact science behind the effect but the cheap trick of using ferrite cores on power and digital cables is proving to be extremely effective.


 
The use of ferrite cores is as old as the hills and is proven to filter RF and other noise depending on how the ferrite core is designed. My AVO valve tester from the 1950s is full of them.
It is no use just putting random ferrite cores on cables though. There are plenty of guides available to help select the correct ferrite for the task in hand. Amateur radio enthusiasts often have to use them to filter RF from other cables in their houses!


----------



## Triode User

rkt31 said:


> I would suggest a custom made power cord from furutech bulk cable. a such cord costing about $750 will easily compete with even the most expensive power cord on earth, reason is simple the technology used in their bulk power cable is far far superior than branded cables. furutech is supplier to many expensive cable brands. these brands simply put a jacket on the cable to hide furutech label on cable outer sheath. oyaide is other such brand supplying bulk cables



I have come close to being banned before now for questioning the sanity of people who pay $750 for a power cord let alone those who view $750 as being a cheap alternative to 'expensive' cable brands.

So I have learned my lesson and I will not comment.


----------



## SuperBurrito

Triode User said:


> I have come close to being banned before now for questioning the sanity of people who pay $750 for a power cord let alone those who view $750 as being a cheap alternative to 'expensive' cable brands.
> 
> So I have learned my lesson and I will not comment.


Borrow some cables from your dealer.  There's no risk.  I was a total disbeliever but even my wife (who is not an audiophile in any way) can easily hear differences under blind testing.  The differences were not subtle - the results were quite obvious.

The caveat is that every/room system is different, and it depends how worth it to you it is to get an increase in sound quality,


----------



## zimzim2001

Does anyone know if the Chord warranty is fully transferable to a second owner?  TYIA


----------



## Triode User

SuperBurrito said:


> Borrow some cables from your dealer.  There's no risk.  I was a total disbeliever but even my wife (who is not an audiophile in any way) can easily hear differences under blind testing.  The differences were not subtle - the results were quite obvious.
> 
> The caveat is that every/room system is different, and it depends how worth it to you it is to get an increase in sound quality,



Have you any ideas as to why? Assuming it is nothing to do with the power delivery then maybe it is to do with RF filtering or rejection? That is the oft quoted conclusion. In which case there are easy and cheap ways to achieve the same. Also, some systems might have better RF filtering within their own built in power supplies to the amps and other kit. If it is a true improvement and as big as you say then it should not be room dependent.


----------



## SuperDuke

zimzim2001 said:


> Does anyone know if the Chord warranty is fully transferable to a second owner?  TYIA



According to a dealer here in the US it is not transferable.


----------



## Whazzzup

SuperDuke said:


> According to a dealer here in the US it is not transferable.



Rarely are they ever transferable.


----------



## rkt31

here is the link for furutech bulk power cables. http://www.furutech.com/products/bulk-cables/


----------



## jlbrach

i was told some time ago when i spoke to chord about an issue i had with my hugo that there was no problem with transferring warranty....i wouldnt think there would be


----------



## SuperBurrito

Triode User said:


> Have you any ideas as to why? Assuming it is nothing to do with the power delivery then maybe it is to do with RF filtering or rejection? That is the oft quoted conclusion. In which case there are easy and cheap ways to achieve the same. Also, some systems might have better RF filtering within their own built in power supplies to the amps and other kit. If it is a true improvement and as big as you say then it should not be room dependent.



It's a great question, and I think what you suggest may be a substantial part of the answer.  All I can say is, it's great to play around and see what produces meaningful results and what doesn't, especially if you can borrow items from a dealer at no cost.  For my system, strangely, a cheap ~$100 power cord made a very audible improvement, but high-res files did not consistently sound better/different than redbook. 

Anyway, I have a Dave incoming (hopefully this week), so I'm curious to see which tweeks have a benefit and which don't.  I'm guessing the Regen will be up for sale soon.


----------



## Clive101

I recently asked the same question I was told by dealer Warranty is transferable.

Power cables £200 vs £2000 the £200 was well made but could not hear any SQ improvement.

The £2000.00 power cable night and day in SQ but used with a mains block so all system was connected to the same power cable.

Then tried the Torus Power Transformer even better SQ.

Strange thing is I get better results with a pre amp and Dave ( which is not the case with the rest of the users ) which makes me think the preamp *MAY* have worked like some sort of filter prior to me connecting the Torus.

I have not tested the Dave straight to the amps using the Torus. Perhaps worth a trying ...?


----------



## jlbrach

not allowing warranty to be transferrable is a big negative for a product...it kills the resale value and makes me less likely to buy it the product


----------



## Triode User

jlbrach said:


> not allowing warranty to be transferrable is a big negative for a product...it kills the resale value and makes me less likely to buy it the product



Ah, so you are actually saying, "Allowing the warranty to be transferable is a big positive for the product. It enhances resale value and makes you more likely to buy the product."

Its a sort of glass half full/ half empty thing.


----------



## SuperDuke

Sounds like we are hearing different info from different dealers- maybe best to contact Chord.


----------



## zimzim2001 (Jul 19, 2017)

jlbrach said:


> i was told some time ago when i spoke to chord about an issue i had with my hugo that there was no problem with transferring warranty....i wouldnt think there would be


I'm getting conflicting answers about this.  I spoke to an authorized dealer tod


SuperDuke said:


> Sounds like we are hearing different info from different dealers- maybe best to contact Chord.


I'm hearing all kinds of different answers too, but a dealer who I trust very much told me the warranty is not transferable.  But then there are reports of 2nd owners having no problems, so who knows what the real official policy is.


----------



## Clive101 (Jul 20, 2017)

zimzim2001 said:


> I'm getting conflicting answers about this.  I spoke to an authorized dealer tod
> 
> I'm hearing all kinds of different answers too, but a dealer who I trust very much told me the warranty is not transferable.  But then there are reports of 2nd owners having no problems, so who knows what the real official policy is.



This was posted by which gives a definitive answer..?

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...ronics-warranty-claims/?page=2#comment-370059


----------



## Triode User

Clive101 said:


> This was posted by which gives a definitive answer..?
> 
> https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...ronics-warranty-claims/?page=2#comment-370059



Identical words on this Head-Fi post also from 2014.
www.head-fi.org/f/threads/chord-hugo.702787/page-602#post-11111630


----------



## Clive101

Yes I check a few months ago with chord and dealer both confirmed the same.
Phil is a dealer so trust the input from 2014.
It would be unlikely that Chord would change policy...?


----------



## Beolab

*OT: 

If anyone is searching for a more exclusive Chord DAVE / Coral series Stand i got a never used Chord Modular stand for sale, bought together with the DAVE + Blu CD player. *



 
1000 Euro

The listing: 
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/new-chord-dave-electronics-choral-modular-stand-system.855958/

Just PM me if you are interested.


----------



## Jiffi32

SuperBurrito said:


> It's a great question, and I think what you suggest may be a substantial part of the answer.  All I can say is, it's great to play around and see what produces meaningful results and what doesn't, especially if you can borrow items from a dealer at no cost.  For my system, strangely, a cheap ~$100 power cord made a very audible improvement, but high-res files did not consistently sound better/different than redbook.
> 
> Anyway, I have a Dave incoming (hopefully this week), so I'm curious to see which tweeks have a benefit and which don't.  I'm guessing the Regen will be up for sale soon.


Which regen do you have? The isoregen makes a noticeable improvement on my Dave!


----------



## Mediahound

FWIW, Rob Watts has stated things like the Regen actually hurt the performance of the DAVE and the only thing that can help a bit is the Audioquest Jitterbug. I assume he knows what he's talking about.


----------



## rgs9200m (Jul 23, 2017)

This is for thunder99 above:
I had the Watt Puppy 6's back in 2001. I loved the transparent bass but had trouble with the vocals that sounded too hard and mechanical. But it may have been that the Wilsons were so revealing that they simply relayed the digital signature at the time.
I had an Accuphase DP75V cd player. I think the Focal titanium tweeter that Wilson used all the time was too fast for its own good. The Watt Puppy was always a very controversial speaker, even though Dave sold a lot of them.
They always demo'ed them in my experience with VTL tube amps, and often with turntables. If you look in the audiogon archives back around the turn of the century, you will find lots of chatter about the WP6.
The best I heard them was with Transparent speaker cables, which really made a difference. Try and get your hands on the Transparents if you can.
Imaging and depth is first rate and to die for.

I also found that the WP6s really did best with classical music and jazz. Less so with vocals.
I always felt they were mainly a classical music speaker.
Don't forget to toe them in almost 45 degrees; aim them right at you. They have a small but precious sweet spot.
It's a hard speaker to get right and takes a lot of work and component matching. But I have heard them perform well like I said. The main problem I found was getting those highs and vocals to sound liquid and organic.
Good luck.


----------



## Malcyg

Mediahound said:


> FWIW, Rob Watts has stated things like the Regen actually hurt the performance of the DAVE and the only thing that can help a bit is the Audioquest Jitterbug. I assume he knows what he's talking about.



I have a W4S RUR and found that Dave, and now Blu II into Dave, are best just served direct without that particular enhancer. I use it now on the end of a mRendu into a Chord Mojo.

Nice work on the videos btw!


----------



## SuperBurrito

Jiffi32 said:


> Which regen do you have? The isoregen makes a noticeable improvement on my Dave!


I have the USB regen.  Guess I might as well give it a listen w/ the Dave before selling it.


----------



## Beolab

SuperBurrito said:


> I have the USB regen.  Guess I might as well give it a listen w/ the Dave before selling it.



You do not even need to try it, because the result is not anything to wright home about. 

With The W4s Remedy Opt/BNC/ Coax clock can give you a slight deeper depht / timing using coax or toslink signal i have found. 

But the USB connection is the best and focus on a Auralic Aries or a Super mRendu insted of the regen.


----------



## Whazzzup

Or antipodes usb instead of region or itona.


----------



## SuperBurrito

Great, thanks for your suggestions!


----------



## Malcyg (Jul 26, 2017)

Wrong post.


----------



## Jiffi32

I also found that the amber regen didn't do much into the  Dave. Isoregen however is a big step. 
I've just received an ultraRendu 2 days ago and it is a big improvement over microRendu


----------



## GreenLeo

Beolab said:


> You do not even need to try it, because the result is not anything to wright home about.
> 
> With The W4s Remedy Opt/BNC/ Coax clock can give you a slight deeper depht / timing using coax or toslink signal i have found.
> 
> But the USB connection is the best and focus on a Auralic Aries or a Super mRendu insted of the regen.


Super mRendu is mR with h/w V1.4?


----------



## GreenLeo

Jiffi32 said:


> I also found that the amber regen didn't do much into the  Dave. Isoregen however is a big step.
> I've just received an ultraRendu 2 days ago and it is a big improvement over microRendu


So the chain is Server >UR >IR >DAVE?


----------



## Whazzzup

That seems like a lot of filtering (use this term loosely) before the dac. I'm server into dac. There is a lot of tech in the server why add something more?


----------



## Triode User

Whazzzup said:


> That seems like a lot of filtering (use this term loosely) before the dac. I'm server into dac. There is a lot of tech in the server why add something more?



+1. Yes, exactly. Especially against the background of Rob Watts' comments that the Dave is particularly insensitive to / tollerant of upstream gear.


----------



## Malcyg

Whazzzup said:


> That seems like a lot of filtering (use this term loosely) before the dac. I'm server into dac. There is a lot of tech in the server why add something more?



I went a little way down that road of LPS-1, mRendu plus W4S RUR - although I found that Dave didn't really benefit from the latter. Then with Blu II into Dave and comparing file playback vs CD, I realised that my file delivery strategy was flawed. I use Roon and logic suggested that I needed to remove the network from my playback system and, once I did, the sound quality of file playback and streaming was improved substantially. Good files are now the equal of Blu II CD replay and even better with good hires files.


----------



## SuperBurrito

Malcyg said:


> I use Roon and logic suggested that I needed to remove the network from my playback system and, once I did, the sound quality of file playback and streaming was improved substantially.



So what is your file playback system now that the network has been removed?  Thanks


----------



## Malcyg

SuperBurrito said:


> So what is your file playback system now that the network has been removed?  Thanks



I have been trialling an Innuos Zenith MkII server which runs Roon core and outputs direct to DAC via USB. Usefully, it also has an Ethernet output which means that you can also pursue the end point path if you prefer or if future developments make that a positive gain. That was a key point which led me to the Zenith since most servers only output via one or the other, not both. For now, direct USB sounds best for me.

I was very impressed with the Zenith and am now waiting for a Zenith SE which is a souped up version aimed at removing even more from the the noise areas like power supply, wiring, chassis etc.


----------



## SuperBurrito

Malcyg said:


> I was very impressed with the Zenith and am now waiting for a Zenith SE which is a souped up version aimed at removing even more from the the noise areas like power supply, wiring, chassis etc.



Cool, thanks for sharing.


----------



## STR-1

Jiffi32 said:


> I also found that the amber regen didn't do much into the  Dave. Isoregen however is a big step.
> I've just received an ultraRendu 2 days ago and it is a big improvement over microRendu


Hi, did you find the ISO Regen still added some improvement after the uRendu, or is it now redundant?


----------



## onsionsi

STR-1 said:


> Hi, did you find the ISO Regen still added some improvement after the uRendu, or is it now redundant?



Also did you find microRendu still added some improvements before ISOREGEN, or is it now redundant?
And I don't know if you upgraded your microRendu to HW1.4 or not yet?


----------



## Whazzzup (Jul 28, 2017)

Malcyg said:


> I have been trialling an Innuos Zenith MkII server which runs Roon core and outputs direct to DAC via USB. Usefully, it also has an Ethernet output which means that you can also pursue the end point path if you prefer or if future developments make that a positive gain. That was a key point which led me to the Zenith since most servers only output via one or the other, not both. For now, direct USB sounds best for me.
> 
> I was very impressed with the Zenith and am now waiting for a Zenith SE which is a souped up version aimed at removing even more from the the noise areas like power supply, wiring, chassis etc.


Antipodes audio ds GT USB sounds best as well. Dx even better. No need for any box in between, roon core operates very well.


----------



## Malcyg (Jul 28, 2017)

Whazzzup said:


> Antipodes audio ds GT USB sounds best as well. Ds even better. No need for any box in between, roon core operates very well.



I did look at Antipodes. They looked very good and the DX in particular had very positive feedback but, from memory, I think I didn't pursue them because they didn't have Ethernet output, they only had USB, and I wanted to have both bases covered - just in case!


----------



## Jiffi32

GreenLeo said:


> So the chain is Server >UR >IR >DAVE?



Not at moment, chain is Server>UR>Dave. Isoregen has gone back to its owner


----------



## Jiffi32

Triode User said:


> +1. Yes, exactly. Especially against the background of Rob Watts' comments that the Dave is particularly insensitive to / tollerant of upstream gear.


 
Dave May be tolerant of upstream components but it isn't insensitive, going from rendu to UltraRendu was a big improvement in sound quality


----------



## Jiffi32

STR-1 said:


> Hi, did you find the ISO Regen still added some improvement after the uRendu, or is it now redundant?


I'm waiting for my isoregen at moment won't be here till late August. Then I can find out. It's intended for my Hugo setup which is driven by  my microRendu now.


----------



## Clive101

[QUOTE="Malcyg, logic suggested that I needed to remove the network from my playback system and, once I did, the sound quality of file playback and streaming was improved substantially. Good files are now the equal of Blu II CD replay and even better with good hires files.[/QUOTE]

Yes, found the same problem with the network injecting noise into the system ( by accident ). Now all isolated and plugged into Torus power.

Perhaps other people should try...? The improvement in my system is clear.


----------



## Triode User (Aug 15, 2017)

Clive101 said:


> Yes, found the same problem with the network injecting noise into the system ( by accident ). Now all isolated and plugged into Torus power.
> 
> Perhaps other people should try...? *The improvement in my system is clear*.



I am interested in this. Please can you elaborate ? In what way was your system improved? Presumably you couldn't hear the noise directly and it was affecting the quality of the music? If so in what way?

I am not trying to trip you up. I genuinely want to find out so I can look to my system to see if I can improve it.


----------



## Clive101

Ok I am new to this HiFi hobby so I will give a brief history ( less than one year ) so my terms are simple.

Melco direct to Dave with USB. 

I tried various cables and it was clear to me that the more expensive cables gave better results, vocal passion, tighter bass, and harshness in the treble reduced. ( I assume they helped with RF and other interference )

With the expensive cables the system just sings, and the emotion of the music comes through.

I tried a Tours Power Supply ( do not, you're end up making a purchase more money spent..! ) every thing improved, I did not know when people talked about noise level but now I sort of get it, the music went quite, just got the music if that sort of makes sense.

So that was it, a perfect system or so I thought !

I disconnected my Meclo ( N1ZH version 1 ) from the network and used the front panel to control the music ( not using the APP on the Tablet to control the Melco hence the network connection ), the sound changed...!

A quick A - B test with and without network connection showed a difference in Bass and Trebile, again less boom and less harsh treble, to be fair it was outstanding before it, just went up a few notches but the change was very noticeable on tracks that would show up that kind of detail. High notes in vocals for example.

I hope that explains..?


----------



## Triode User

Clive101 said:


> Ok I am new to this HiFi hobby so I will give a brief history ( less than one year ) so my terms are simple.
> 
> Melco direct to Dave with USB.
> 
> ...



Many thanks for taking the time to explain. All of those comments seem consistent with what Rob Watts attributes to RF and other noise affecting the sound. 

The trouble I guess is that we all have different systems and different other electrical kit in our houses and nearby not to mention different electrical mains supplies. 

I still don't see why making a digital cable with decent screening or RF rejection / filtering should cost much money but that's just me being cynical.


----------



## Clive101

Yes I agree with what you say. There are too many variables in systems but I am sure we all suffer from noise to a greater or lesser degree so posting along with your results may help someone else.

The cost of the cables, well I am still smarting at the cost...!

I might re-test my cheap cables £200.00 - £300.00 all in, which I purchased before trying expensive cables as I was cynical and possibly in the snake oil camp ( USB, XLR x 2 speaker cable 5 mts ) and plug the system into Tours just to see what the Torus does. Perhaps all I needed in the first place was the Torus and the cheap cables ....?

Do you want me to try ( I dare not for obvious reason ) ..?


----------



## Triode User

Clive101 said:


> Yes I agree with what you say. There are too many variables in systems but I am sure we all suffer from noise to a greater or lesser degree so posting along with your results may help someone else.
> 
> The cost of the cables, well I am still smarting at the cost...!
> 
> ...



In truth I am unlikely to go down the route of expensive cables. My speaker cables cost £7 per m, my data cables cost £20 and my interconnects are home made using Van Damme cables at a cost of £1.70 per m. 

Just seeing that you have 5m speaker cables, I have done quite a bit of experimenting and I found that there was a dramatic improvement by putting my monobloc amplifiers right next to the speakers. My favoured sound was with 0.5m speaker cables but having double thickness (12 sq mm) at 1m length was about the same so I have opted for that for ease of arranging the kit. This is now many times better than a £3000 speaker cable from a well known speaker manufacturer whose name is similar to the Dave manufacturer. Cost is not always a good indicator of performance.


----------



## Clive101

Thank you for the information re distance from mono blocks, I am unable to change the placement of the speakers owing to room restrictions.

Yes cables always a debate, I have Van Damme as well..!

Ok will retest mine this weekend and post later. Let me see what effect Torus has with Dave, with and without.


----------



## Triode User

Have fun. I have a favoured track for comparisons. It is short and is repetitive so it lets one get a good handle on the sound. Agnes Obel, Red Virgin Soil from Citizen Of Glass album. My dealer heard it about twenty times when he brought kit to me recently and now he uses it at HiFi shows!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

O/T I just thought my experience in the area of room acoustics may be of interest. 

When one considers how much is spent on something like cables and electrical purification, let alone primary hifi components, it is surprising that so many of us (with speaker setups) spend so little money on room acoustic treatment. For years I have 'made do' with simple diy solutions but nothing of any professional nature in my hifi room. Well I finally bit the bullet this year and sought professional advice on the subject and have now installed a full solution. Basically for £1600 I couldn't have transformed my sound to this extent any other way. What's more it's a permanent solution for the given room. It won't be upgraded or fall foul of changing hifi protocols. TBH I feel like a bit of a chump to have avoided this step for so long given my obsession for sound quality and the level of investment (and thought) I have made to date into every other aspect of the system.

*The Room*
My speakers fire across a room with a depth of 14' into alcoves. The room is 16' wide. The floor is an old floating wooden floor with carpet wall to wall and the ceilings 8' 6". Fortunately I do have a recess behind the listening sofa for French doors, which provides a little extra space. My speakers have a bass spec of 24 hz so there is a reasonable level of bass to tame in a room of this size. Though I suspected my biggest problem was more due to reflections than the bass boom lag.

I sought the advice of two specialist companies in the UK, in order to avoid any contradictions that may occur in their personal strategy. I was pleasantly surprised to find their professional advice was 'free' and at a level that was pretty scientific also. I was impressed to be honest. Free advice these days is almost always a term for 'sales pitch'. This was not the case. I felt these companies cared about acoustic discipline and the science thereof. The required information about my room was very specific indeed so that the room and its reflections and bass weights could be 'modelled' correctly. This covered not just dimensions but materials. I didn't rush my decision and the process happened over a few months. I wanted to get this exactly right for my needs and not cut corners. 

Well the decision was made and the goods ordered. When they arrived on a pallet (this was huge!) I got to grips with unpacking them and finding some room for the pieces so as to install the items in phases. I wanted to experience changes in a way that I could identify each and gain valuable Insight into the various solution for later reference.

*Phase 1 - Square Corner Bass Traps*
This did improve bass control and boom lag but I was perhaps expecting a little more from this solution. I guess my expectations had grown so high over the months that I maybe had unreasonable expectations. This measure certainly tamed the corners though I suspected my biggest problem was down to firing the speakers 'across' the room and was not going to be solved by this one measure. 

Btw I opted for square traps here because space was of the essence and by going for square I lost less of the wall and so could still find space for furniture. Square traps double the volume of tri traps for the same wall space.

*Phase 2 - Bass Traps behind the sofa and behind the speakers *
I installed two 125mm thick bass traps each 1800mm tall and 600mm wide behind the sofa first and this did settle things down (I guess this was more critical because the speakers fire across the room). Space is tight but this allowed for me to even move the sofa back a few inches whilst still enjoying the more controlled bass. I then put two bass traps behind the speakers and this was a revelation! 'Much' tighter bass. The sound difference was chalk and cheese. I already knew I had a problem from behind the speakers because I could feel the boom coming at me and over the last year I had experimented with various ways of mitigating this acoustic problem. I must say I am surprised that the solution was so simple.

At this point I started to get rather excited and decided to forego Phase 3 for a few days whilst I experimented with my music collection. For anyone firing their speakers 'across' a room, this solution should imo not be ignored even if you eschew the other solutions explained here. The biggest improvement for me though was not resigned to the new bass. It was the focus and palpability of voices. Wow.

*Phase 3 - Ceiling cloud *
I would like to note here that because of the design of my hifi room I already had solutions for sidewall reflections. Had I not, then this would have been included in Phase 3 along with the ceiling cloud. 

The cloud measures 1700mm x 1200mm x 60mm in total. Once installed this again was a revelation in both clarity of image and to a slightly lesser extent bass control too. I had contemplated having diffuser panels on the face of my ceiling cloud in order to not darken the higher frequencies to much. I decided against this measure a) because I perceived my room was reasonably bright anyway and that bass was a problem also and b) because the supplier said I could add them after the event should I deem them necessary. This seemed like a good solution and as it turned out the room is not too dark at all. In fact in some respects high frequencies are now clearer due the the reduced in-room reflections. 

I am having a very enjoyable time now revisiting my music collection, gaining further appreciation of the production and performances and waiting for the delivery of my Blu II player.


----------



## kennyb123

DaveRedRef-III said:


> When one considers how much is spent on something like cables and electrical purification, let alone primary hifi components, it is surprising that so many of us (with speaker setups) spend so little money on room acoustic treatment.



Great post! 

Placing a pair of GIK 244 bass traps in the corners behind my speakers delivered some important and surprising improvements.  I had expected to hear primarily improvements in the bass, but what surprised me was to find that my speakers became much better at being able to disappear.  I consider that first pair of traps to be one the biggest-bang-for-the-buck upgrades I've done to date.

My room could still use more work though, so thanks for sharing your thoughts.


----------



## rkt31

@DaveRedRef-III, I am not expert but with my experience I can say that there two extremes of everything. you can make the room completely dead by using heavy acoustic wall panelling and roof treatment . the other one is an empty room with nice shiny paint on the walls and roof. real life situations will always be somewhere in between. ie you can't practically make a room dead. the key is to place the speakers at some toe in . that exact toe in is really elusive but once set it avoids any bass boom even in the most difficult acoustic conditions. it is because this balances the bass and treble response for the given conditions and hence accurate imaging. toe in more you get sharp focused  treble . toe in less you get more bass interaction with walls . so the correct balance is somewhere in between. at that point speakers behave like true stereo pair in unison projecting the sound image which is like live performance ie if you go closer to speakers you feel like you listening the live performance from a closer distance or vice versa , that's how a correct stereo imaging should be there, is it should be free from sweet spot limitations. even room acoustics should not matter more or less because that 'live' performance should sound like actual live performance in that room. I currently reside in a old bungalow like accommodation having rooms size more than 20'x20' still my set up of kef r300 and monitor audio RS w12 sub sounds like anyone speaking or performing in in that room


----------



## rkt31

sorry for few typing mistakes, night time typing from mobile phone.


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## DaveRedRef-III (Aug 1, 2017)

Rkt31
I don't think there is a need for either extreme you mention. Perhaps you didn't man that. Of course a room shouldn't be totally dead. We want some reflection but we don't want that reflection to be noticeably close to the original. We want the brightness that it brings but without the recognition. I was lucky enough to experience a totally dead room recently (as in all six sides including ceiling and floor absorb all frequencies to a significant degree) this was Kef's 'dead' test room. It was quite a weird experience. 

Things like studded walls or solid walls have as much affect on bass as the dimensions as far as I understand.

Regarding speaker toe in, I have always started with the designers recommendations and then tweaked from there to allow for room influence. Sonus Faber for instance design for an equilateral triangle with speakers shooting directly at the listener in order to get the most balanced frequency chart and best imaging. Kef shoot straight ahead by design. They have ultra wide dispersion tweeters with the latest ranges again, so as to maintain the most balanced frequency chart. Piega do the same with an Isosceles triangle with the listener sitting approx 1.5x the width of speaker placement. My experience has been they are all pretty much spot on regardless of room imperfections.....but we can't help experimenting!


----------



## Clive101

Triode User said:


> Have fun. I have a favoured track for comparisons. It is short and is repetitive so it lets one get a good handle on the sound. Agnes Obel, Red Virgin Soil from Citizen Of Glass album. My dealer heard it about twenty times when he brought kit to me recently and now he uses it at HiFi shows!



As promised I did a fairly quick A - B test with Dave in my system. With and without the Torus Power supply and with and without expensive cables ( £15,000 or less depending on length of speaker cable RRP) vs cheap cables ( £200.00 ).

Results were quite astonishing cheap cables and expensive cables without the Torus Power supply were about the same ( well the expensive were slightly better but not much ) but the music IMO was not worth the listen although sounded better than some other systems I have had the pleasure off.

With the Torus Power supply with the cheap cables Oh My Gosh I went though most of the test tracks ( less than 20 tracks ) and forgot what I was meant to be doing which was doing an A - B test..!

With The Torus and the expensive cables well again a further uplift in SQ just more of every thing they just seemed to lift the SQ, high end consumer to pro level if that makes sense...?

Conclusion

In my system the benefit of the Torus was not up for debate SQ lifted by 65%. Adding the expensive cables added I would say another 10% - 20% ( % increase guess from the original sound and not scientific at all but gives you an idea what the differences were..? )

The cables could be up for debate and I would suggest to anyone purchasing expensive cables to try a power supply that can handle 8 - 16 amps for the WHOLE system ( note using standard power cables throughout  except the Torus which has a Chord Power cable £200.00 ).

Sorry for the short review but the result was very clear to my ears.


----------



## Triode User

Clive101 said:


> As promised I did a fairly quick A - B test with Dave in my system. With and without the Torus Power supply and with and without expensive cables ( £15,000 or less depending on length of speaker cable RRP) vs cheap cables ( £200.00 ).
> 
> Results were quite astonishing cheap cables and expensive cables without the Torus Power supply were about the same ( well the expensive were slightly better but not much ) but the music IMO was not worth the listen although sounded better than some other systems I have had the pleasure off.
> 
> ...



Many thanks for that report. In know myself that it is slightly tedious to do the testing and even more tedious to write it up. So well done.

Just a question. Why do you suggest a power supply that can handle 8 to 16 amps? That seems quite high.

Also, I very much support the view that speaker cables are important and make a large difference to the sound. I have been experimenting with various types of cable and also lengths in my Blu2/Dave system. I think though that it is a myth that very good or even excellent cables have to be expensive. I would put my current cables in the 'best I have ever heard' category but the plugs used are far more expensive that the actual cables.


----------



## Clive101

Yes 8 - 16 amp is quite a lot but when you see the benefits you will add you TV and other similar equipment. ( you get better picture on tv ) 
Remember your need some headroom I am not that technical but now and again your need a rush of power for say a bass drum.
When I added the total amps along with the preamp etc as per the manufacturer it added to 10 amps ...? So purchased the 16 amp unit.
Had the 8 amp on demo and my system only uses 1.8 amps on warm up then say 1.6 amps but for the small amount extra cash I purchased the 16 amp.
I have requested from the dealer why the equipment needs 10 amp while the Tours shows such a low amp rate  ( no reply ) ...? Which would suggest your correct it is a lot...?

Yes cables,  tried a few and have a preferred choice, I went for transparent cables. I did notice one brand inparticular did add colour.

I never realised what rubbish electric I have. I even have the network infecting my system, even with Dave's special USB output it still gets though from the Melco. Now all system protected, I guess people network streaming may have the same problems..?


----------



## Articnoise

Clive101 said:


> As promised I did a fairly quick A - B test with Dave in my system. With and without the Torus Power supply and with and without expensive cables ( £15,000 or less depending on length of speaker cable RRP) vs cheap cables ( £200.00 ).
> 
> Results were quite astonishing cheap cables and expensive cables without the Torus Power supply were about the same ( well the expensive were slightly better but not much ) but the music IMO was not worth the listen although sounded better than some other systems I have had the pleasure off.
> 
> ...



Yep Torus Power Isolation Transformer are great.

I don’t have one, but if I was in search for a mains power cleaner I would have one of their Isolation transformer highest on my list.


----------



## Triode User (Aug 5, 2017)

Clive101 said:


> Yes 8 - 16 amp is quite a lot but when you see the benefits you will add you TV and other similar equipment. ( you get better picture on tv )
> Remember your need some headroom I am not that technical but now and again your need a rush of power for say a bass drum.
> When I added the total amps along with the preamp etc as per the manufacturer it added to 10 amps ...? So purchased the 16 amp unit.
> Had the 8 amp on demo and my system only uses 1.8 amps on warm up then say 1.6 amps but for the small amount extra cash I purchased the 16 amp.
> ...



I only asked about the amps because in the UK a 1kw electric fire would draw about 4amps. Even a 2kw fire would only draw 8amps. My power amps draw 290w each at full power output (sign wave). That's about 1 amp each at UK voltages. The other kit such as Dave, Blu2, preamp, tv etc have hardly have any current draw at all. So with everything on and at full blast I will be drawing far less than 3amps.


----------



## Clive101 (Aug 5, 2017)

Yes your correct. I have had a look at my amps and the manufacturer states 1000 wts so 4 amps each ( full power ) hence 8 amps for the power supply  but realistically they do not run on full power so the 8 amp was enough.

My amps and system only draw roughly 2 amps with low - medium volume so again this would seem 16 amp is overkill. I think the manufacturer has given the wrong information and is why I asked the question but yet still now answer.

Anyhow wanted to add another room powered by the Torus and to me was worth the extra to go from 8 amp to 16 amp, but I do see your point. Perhaps one should get a definitive answer before purchase...?


----------



## ecwl

Assuming that we are not of the subjective "whatever power conditioner sounds best" in my system school (which is totally legitimate), I have read that there are two schools of thought on what influences sound the most with power products. One school is that incoming power is noisy so you need a power conditioner (like Torus) to clean up the power (and maybe give it a voltage boost). The downside is to make sure your conditioner has enough power to drive all your products. Another school (with John Swenson, designer of microRendu & LPS-1) says the more important factor is actually leakage currents from ground loops. This is low level high frequency noise that gets from one component to another. Proper galvanic isolation can help reduce this kind of noise but is never perfect. The solution is to make sure your power cables are of the lowest possible impedance and to have all your connected equipments connected to the same power bar so that the impedance between components' power supplies are of the lowest impedance. By keeping the impedance low, the voltage of this leakage current from ground loops would remain as low as possible so you get less noise moving from component to component. Any power conditioner that accepts multiple inputs would generally increase the impedance. Swenson's ideal solution would be to have a humongous torroid transformer like Torus as the power source and then you plug in a simpler power bar to this Torus and all your components are plugged into this same power bar to keep the impedance low. But if we can't all do that so his argument is that for high-end products like DAVE, the power supply noise filtering is already excellent so leakage currents from ground loops plays a much more important role than AC power noise.

I personally owned a 5A Torus and everything is plugged into it except my amplifier and subwoofers. After trying out Swenson's LPS-1, I had a change of heart. I removed the Torus, and got a Nordost QB8 (which is basically a ridiculously overpriced power bar) and simply plug everything including my amplifier and subwoofers into it. And in my mind, I think the sound is better through a simple power bar. Obviously, I would love to be able to install a 20-40A Torus unit so that I can plug the power bar into that unit to get the cleanest possible power. But I personally think getting everything into the same power bar and using lowest impedance power cable we can afford is the better way to go for better sound. I also think it's the reason why I don't hear much difference between USB tweaks.

Obviously, your mileage may vary. And ultimately, you should buy what sounds best to you.


----------



## winders

John Swenson recommends using an isolation transform with extremely low inter-winding capacitance. A good example are the Topaz Ultra Isolation Transformers with either .005pF or .0005pF interwinding capacitance. The "extremely low capacitance the Topaz doesn't pass the high frequency crud on the AV main" which means only nice clean power is passed on through the transformer. He also suggests using a quality yet basic power strip (e.g., TrippLite PS series) with all the audio components plugged into it.  This "dramatically cuts down on the impedance between boxes, significantly lowering noise generated by leakage loops".

I have a Topaz 2.5 kVa unit with .0005pf inter-winding capacitance that is wired for balanced power. I have a TrippLite PS power strip plugged into the Topaz transformer. All my audio components are plugged in the TrippLite power strip. Compared to anything else I have done, this setup has made the most significant improvement in sound quality my system has experienced.

Considering the Topaz unit cost me something like $300 with shipping, it has to be the biggest sound quality bargain I have seen.


----------



## Whazzzup (Aug 5, 2017)

_I also use 
Furman PST-8D SMP EVS LiFT 15-Amp Aluminum Chassis 8-Outlet Isolated Outlet Banks Advanced Level Power Conditioning_


----------



## ecwl

winders said:


> I have a TrippLite PS power strip plugged into the Topaz transformer.


Thanks. That's a much better explanation than I can muster.

My issue is that I can't do this because I don't think the Topaz can power the subwoofers and amplifiers. I guess I'll just have to come up with a lower powered system in the long run.


----------



## winders

ecwl said:


> Thanks. That's a much better explanation than I can muster.
> 
> My issue is that I can't do this because I don't think the Topaz can power the subwoofers and amplifiers. I guess I'll just have to come up with a lower powered system in the long run.



How much power are you drawing? If you don't know, I bet it is less than you think. Get a "KILL A WATT" and find out.....


----------



## marcmccalmont

I'm expecting a BLU2/Dave in a few weeks!!!! Wondering if anyone has determined the optimum length for the bnc to bnc cables connecting the Blu2 to Dave?
Thanks in advance
Marc


----------



## Triode User

ecwl said:


> One school is that incoming power is noisy so you need a power conditioner (like Torus) to clean up the power *(and maybe give it a voltage boost)*.



No voltage boost need here, quite the opposite. My UK supply is often at 253v which is somewhat higher than the UK 240v norm and bang on the maximum set by the EU compromise permissible voltage of 230v -6% +10%.


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> I'm expecting a BLU2/Dave in a few weeks!!!! Wondering if anyone has determined the optimum length for the bnc to bnc cables connecting the Blu2 to Dave?
> Thanks in advance
> Marc


I have 1m and 1.5m versions of the same cable and have meant to try to see if there is a difference. I just haven't got around to it and so use the 1.5m versions as there is a school of thought that longer is better to get more RF filtering. I would say get 1.5m and you can't be far wrong. And don't bother spending silly money. There is no need to spend over £50 for the pair.


----------



## marcmccalmont

I build my own semi rigid bnc cables, proper shielding, accurate impedance used in military applications
Would you do me a favor and try your 1 meter length see if there is a difference and report back? I,m limited to 5' lengths but don't want a long length unless there is a sonic advantage 
Best
Marc


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> I build my own semi rigid bnc cables, proper shielding, accurate impedance used in military applications
> Would you do me a favor and try your 1 meter length see if there is a difference and report back? I,m limited to 5' lengths but don't want a long length unless there is a sonic advantage
> Best
> Marc



Ummn, I haven't had time for the last couple of months and I suspect it might need a few hours of listening. Don't expect a report soon. There is also no pressing need as I am very happy with the sound. Higher up on my 'to do' list was to design and make a set of speaker cables that I was happy with. That has been making much biggger sound gains. 

If you build your own bnc how about you build two pairs and report back?


----------



## marcmccalmont

Triode User said:


> Ummn, I haven't had time for the last couple of months and I suspect it might need a few hours of listening. Don't expect a report soon. There is also no pressing need as I am very happy with the sound. Higher up on my 'to do' list was to design and make a set of speaker cables that I was happy with. That has been making much biggger sound gains.
> 
> If you build your own bnc how about you build two pairs and report back?


I could do that but was hoping for someone who had done the experiment 
BTW I'm using Spectral amps they respond well to Kimber 8tc speaker cable


----------



## Clive101

ecwl said:


> Assuming that we are not of the subjective "whatever power conditioner sounds best" in my system school (which is totally legitimate), I have read that there are two schools of thought on what influences sound the most with power products. One school is that incoming power is noisy so you need a power conditioner (like Torus) to clean up the power (and maybe give it a voltage boost). The downside is to make sure your conditioner has enough power to drive all your products. Another school (with John Swenson, designer of microRendu & LPS-1) says the more important factor is actually leakage currents from ground loops. This is low level high frequency noise that gets from one component to another. Proper galvanic isolation can help reduce this kind of noise but is never perfect. The solution is to make sure your power cables are of the lowest possible impedance and to have all your connected equipments connected to the same power bar so that the impedance between components' power supplies are of the lowest impedance. By keeping the impedance low, the voltage of this leakage current from ground loops would remain as low as possible so you get less noise moving from component to component. Any power conditioner that accepts multiple inputs would generally increase the impedance. Swenson's ideal solution would be to have a humongous torroid transformer like Torus as the power source and then you plug in a simpler power bar to this Torus and all your components are plugged into this same power bar to keep the impedance low. But if we can't all do that so his argument is that for high-end products like DAVE, the power supply noise filtering is already excellent so leakage currents from ground loops plays a much more important role than AC power noise.
> 
> I personally owned a 5A Torus and everything is plugged into it except my amplifier and subwoofers. After trying out Swenson's LPS-1, I had a change of heart. I removed the Torus, and got a Nordost QB8 (which is basically a ridiculously overpriced power bar) and simply plug everything including my amplifier and subwoofers into it. And in my mind, I think the sound is better through a simple power bar. Obviously, I would love to be able to install a 20-40A Torus unit so that I can plug the power bar into that unit to get the cleanest possible power. But I personally think getting everything into the same power bar and using lowest impedance power cable we can afford is the better way to go for better sound. I also think it's the reason why I don't hear much difference between USB tweaks.
> 
> Obviously, your mileage may vary. And ultimately, you should buy what sounds best to you.



Thank you for the information.
One thing I did try was a power bar with a very expensive power cable the Dave system being plugged into the power bar and I had a very good result.
I ended up with the using a power conditioner as the SQ was better and I had the option of AVR ( automatic voltage control ).
I will try as you suggest a power bar with the Torus and see what happens it will be a while but will report back.
"Torus Power attenuates both Differential Mode (L-N) and Common Mode (G-N) noise" quoted from Torus, does this do the same as you suggest in the QB8 ...?


----------



## Crgreen

Triode User said:


> I have 1m and 1.5m versions of the same cable and have meant to try to see if there is a difference. I just haven't got around to it and so use the 1.5m versions as there is a school of thought that longer is better to get more RF filtering. I would say get 1.5m and you can't be far wrong. And don't bother spending silly money. There is no need to spend over £50 for the pair.



What have you compared them with?


----------



## Articnoise

QB8 is just Nordost AC distribution list. Nordost has a whole product line that are designed to alleviate the impact of poor quality AC.

http://www.nordost.com/qrt-power-products.php

With Torus Power Isolation Transformer you do not need more boxes. All in one.


----------



## Clive101

Thanks for the info. I thought it was a one box fix as well.


----------



## bryanjh25

Just wondering if PAD Aquila is suitable for Dave?  Or other alternative option, less than $1500?
Thanks.


----------



## Triode User

bryanjh25 said:


> Just wondering if PAD Aquila is suitable for Dave?  Or other alternative option, less than $1500?
> Thanks.



That is 10% to 20% of the cost of a Blu2 that you are talking about for one power cable. Count up the $$ / ££ in the rest of your power cables and ask whether a Blu2 would improve the sound more. Then you can answer your own question.


----------



## bryanjh25

Triode User said:


> That is 10% to 20% of the cost of a Blu2 that you are talking about for one power cable. Count up the $$ / ££ in the rest of your power cables and ask whether a Blu2 would improve the sound more. Then you can answer your own question.


Indeed. LoL


----------



## Triode User

bryanjh25 said:


> Indeed. LoL



Yep, and that is why I bought the Blu2 and use cheap kettle leads throughout. If I find myself looking at power leads or power conditioners or expensive USB leads etc etc I just remind myself of how far their purchase cost would go instead towards a new amplifier or whatever.

You have to keep your eye on the bigger picture instead of being attracted by glittery bling.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Triode User said:


> Yep, and that is why I bought the Blu2 and use cheap kettle leads throughout. If I find myself looking at power leads or power conditioners or expensive USB leads etc etc I just remind myself of how far their purchase cost would go instead towards a new amplifier or whatever.
> 
> You have to keep your eye on the bigger picture instead of being attracted by glittery bling.


True but an investment in a used ps audio powerplant and some Pangea ac14 se II's pay dividends for years with changing equipment


----------



## Malcyg (Aug 15, 2017)

Triode User said:


> Yes, found the same problem with the network injecting noise into the system ( by accident ).



I am interested in this. Please can you elaborate ? In what way was your system improved? Presumably you couldn't hear the noise directly and it was affecting the quality of the music? If so in what way?

I am not trying to trip you up. I genuinely want to find out so I can look to my system to see if I can improve it.[/QUOTE]

I haven't looked this thread for a while so am a bit late on this point but, from my own experience, you can't hear noise or interference and you don't know that you have got it until you hear something better. When I got Blu II, I found that CD playback sounded better than files which suggested some issues around file playback that were not immediately apparent until compared directly to the Blu II CD. It wasn't the source as I was comparing ripped files vs the original CD from which the file was ripped, so the logical conclusion was that it was my Roon setup which was taking the data on a round trip though my network as well as using a PC which is hardly audio optimised. The effect of this wasn't clear though until I got the Blu II which highlighted the point. Cutting out the network and playing files directly into the DAC made a positive improvement and brought files up to the level of CD and even better with some.

For your own system, if your files sound as good as Blu II CD playback, then you're in good shape.

Edit: I'm not sure why the quote from Triode doesn't look right, probably because I shortened it a bit.


----------



## Triode User

Malcyg said:


> Edit: I'm not sure why the quote from Triode doesn't look right, probably because I shortened it a bit.



I think there was a problem with the quoting in my post which I have corrected.

Thanks for your explanation of noise and what it meant to your system. I also had been wondering how to tell if I have a problem or not. Also of course, ignorance is bliss. My system sounds great so at one level why would I go searching for a problem that I may or may not have?


----------



## Malcyg

Triode User said:


> My system sounds great so at one level why would I go searching for a problem that I may or may not have?



Can't disagree with that and I was tempted to say don't bother looking at all if you're happy with it.


----------



## onsionsi

Malcyg said:


> I am interested in this. Please can you elaborate ? In what way was your system improved? Presumably you couldn't hear the noise directly and it was affecting the quality of the music? If so in what way?
> 
> I am not trying to trip you up. I genuinely want to find out so I can look to my system to see if I can improve it.



I haven't looked this thread for a while so am a bit late on this point but, from my own experience, you can't hear noise or interference and you don't know that you have got it until you hear something better. When I got Blu II, I found that CD playback sounded better than files which suggested some issues around file playback that were not immediately apparent until compared directly to the Blu II CD. It wasn't the source as I was comparing ripped files vs the original CD from which the file was ripped, so the logical conclusion was that it was my Roon setup which was taking the data on a round trip though my network as well as using a PC which is hardly audio optimised. The effect of this wasn't clear though until I got the Blu II which highlighted the point. Cutting out the network and playing files directly into the DAC made a positive improvement and brought files up to the level of CD and even better with some.

For your own system, if your files sound as good as Blu II CD playback, then you're in good shape.

Edit: I'm not sure why the quote from Triode doesn't look right, probably because I shortened it a bit.[/QUOTE]

@Malcyg may i know what is the network do you have


----------



## Malcyg (Aug 15, 2017)

@onsionsi

I'm not sure if this answers your question, but I had a Melco NAS in my main rack and I ran Roon on a PC elsewhere in the house for multi room distribution. Router is Netgear R7000. This meant that the files travelled from Melco through router to PC for Roon playback which sent the files back through the router to the endpoint which was LPS-1/mRendu and into the DAC.

Now I have an Innuos Zenith SE acting as a Roon core server which sits in the rack where the Melco was and outputs directly into the DAC via USB, so there is no network roundtrip involved and the Zenith will also be a better environment than the PC was. The Zenith also has Ethernet output so you can use a Roon endpoint like mRendu, but my initial reaction is that direct USB output sounds better as well as removing two boxes from the rack. I trialled a Zenith Mk II which proved the point about the network and improved sound quality and the SE is yet another step up in sound quality. I'm very impressed with it.

It's a very neat and tidy rack as well with only four units - Zenith/Blu/Dave/SPM1200 Mk II. Important for the wife that it is neat and tidy.


----------



## Triode User

Malcyg said:


> @onsionsi
> 
> I'm not sure if this answers your question, but I had a Melco NAS in my main rack and I ran Roon on a PC elsewhere in the house for multi room distribution. Router is Netgear R7000. This meant that the files travelled from Melco through router to PC for Roon playback which sent the files back through the router to the endpoint which was LPS-1/mRendu and into the DAC.
> 
> ...



My dealer who sold me the Dave and Blu2 is also singing the praises of the Innuos Zenith. 

He has promised to bring me one to demo but he probably realises that my wallet is slightly empty at the moment.


----------



## Malcyg

Triode User said:


> My dealer who sold me the Dave and Blu2 is also singing the praises of the Innuos Zenith.
> 
> He has promised to bring me one to demo but he probably realises that my wallet is slightly empty at the moment.



My advice - don't do it Nick!! You probably know the likely outcome.


----------



## Triode User

Malcyg said:


> My advice - don't do it Nick!! You probably know the likely outcome.



Ha, you know me too well.

Hence why I have not chased him for the demo (although he does need to come because he still has the boxes for my Spendor SP200 speakers).


----------



## Clive101 (Aug 15, 2017)

Malcyg said:


> @onsionsi
> 
> I'm not sure if this answers your question, but I had a Melco NAS in my main rack and I ran Roon on a PC elsewhere in the house for multi room distribution. Router is Netgear R7000. This meant that the files travelled from Melco through router to PC for Roon playback which sent the files back through the router to the endpoint which was LPS-1/mRendu and into the DAC.
> 
> ...



Did you test Melco direct USB to DAVE not connected to your network for a like for like comparison with Zenith...?


----------



## Malcyg

Clive101 said:


> Did you test Melco direct USB to DAVE not connected to your network for a like for like comparison with Zenith...?



Yes, I did. I was a very early adopter of the Melco and have found it to be a very good and reliable device, but the lack of an app and, more pertinent for me, the lack of integration with Roon meant that I could not use it the way that it sounded best in my system - which was direct out of USB into the DAC. 

By straight comparison, I found the Zenith MkII to sound notably better - more musical and relaxed - and the SE is another league entirely. Mind you, I have the N1-A, so comparing with the SE is not really a fair comparison. Nonetheless, several dealers have been raving about the SE, and rightly so in my opinion.


----------



## Clive101 (Aug 15, 2017)

Malcyg said:


> Yes, I did. I was a very early adopter of the Melco and have found it to be a very good and reliable device, but the lack of an app and, more pertinent for me, the lack of integration with Roon meant that I could not use it the way that it sounded best in my system - which was direct out of USB into the DAC.
> 
> By straight comparison, I found the Zenith MkII to sound notably better - more musical and relaxed - and the SE is another league entirely. Mind you, I have the N1-A, so comparing with the SE is not really a fair comparison. Nonetheless, several Zenith there are different models



Thanks for the information I see like the Zenith, Melco has different models and different price points so not fair comparison as you suggest. I am in the market for one and will now try both.

I agree on the lack of Melco App but finding bubbleupnp works fine and Melco have one in Beta at the moment so things are changing. I have experienced noise from my larger network and more of a purist so keep my hifi off the network SQ is better but each to there own ( never tried Roon ).


----------



## Malcyg

Clive101 said:


> Thanks for the information I see like the Zenith, Melco has different models and different price points so not fair comparison as you suggest. I am in the market for one and will now try both.
> 
> I agree on the lack of Melco App but finding bubbleupnp works fine and Melco have one in Beta at the moment so things are changing. I have experienced noise from my larger network and more of a purist so keep my hifi off the network SQ is better but each to there own ( never tried Roon ).



I liked LUMIN app with Melco - worth a try if you haven't already done so. Best not to try Roon as there is no going back once you have, and then you need to restructure the system around it like I have. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss as Triode said.


----------



## Clive101

Malcyg said:


> I liked LUMIN app with Melco - worth a try if you haven't already done so. Best not to try Roon as there is no going back once you have, and then you need to restructure the system around it like I have. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss as Triode said.


Thanks I will try both, but I don't hold much hope for Roon ( cost issue ) but keep an open mind.


----------



## Kakki

Rob, some people are saying that isolation transformer / AC regenerater enhance Dave's sound so much.
I assume that Dave alone would not be affected from those things but they are using Dave with power amp.

Is there any technical possibility that Dave would benefit from isolation transformer / AC regenerater?


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## thunder 99 (Aug 19, 2017)

In regards to pre-amps and DAVE I had an interesting little scenario I was  hoping to get some advice on:

I have the Chord DAVE and Vitus Amp (RI300). I find the sound via my Wilson Audio WP6 to be clean & sharp with good attack. Transparency and resolution are to die for. Incredible dynamics and rich detail. Not analytical but it clearly lacks the analogue sounding darker “punch/impact” which I sometimes find a bit too much. However my main issue with this combination is that I feel the soundstage really expands vertically to the point where music seems to be too distant sometimes and can get lost. <Compared to Metrum Pavane as DAC which offers more density due to a more analogue sounding tone as well as reducing soundstage/ dynamics to a large extent>.

I am hoping to marry the DAVE to a tube pre-amp. I like the characteristics of a SS so want to stick with the Vitus. *What would you guys recommend in terms of preamp between DAVE and Vitus?*

In terms of my tube preferences, I really enjoy the 300B sound – Mainly because of the magical mids and the general body and weight added to each note.  Now I have heard the DAVE plugged straight into tube power amps loses a lot of its signature sound – soundstage and the wonderful DAVE sound in general so I am not sure I want to head down that path especially considering Vitus is the amp for me. I have also heard DAVE plugged into a high end 300B Tube amp (WA5LE with Takatsuki 300B and 274 tubes) but the main issue here has been the treble spikes which makes it unlistenable to me. I don’t think DAVE likes 300B – but I really don’t know whether this is the case or not.


*Given these experiences I was hoping maybe a tube preamplifier will be the perfect union allowing me to keep the best of the 300B experience and the DAVE experience without producing the treble side effects that a 300B power amp and DAVE have produced for me in the past. What do you guys think? Would you have any suggestions about which tube preamplifier to trial?* One idea I had was to just get the WA5LE modded so that it can act as a pre amp as well. OR just to get a Manley Neoclassical 300B> Since I know the WA5LE works with my current tubes without blowing them (Takatsukis are pretty dear) I would prefer to keep that amp, but not sure whether that is a valid reason and not sure how to confirm whether Takatsukis would work without issue in the Manley amp. The other reason why WA5 mod is better for me is because less equipment can do more (as the rectifier tubes are pretty dear too and it’s just more economical to keep just the one amp and one set of tubes).

Thanks


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## miketlse

thunder 99 said:


> In regards to pre-amps and DAVE I had an interesting little scenario I was  hoping to get some advice on:
> 
> I have the Chord DAVE and Vitus Amp (RI300). I find the sound via my Wilson Audio WP6 to be clean & sharp with good attack. Transparency and resolution are to die for. Incredible dynamics and rich detail. Not analytical but it clearly lacks the analogue sounding darker “punch/impact” which I sometimes find a bit too much. However my main issue with this combination is that I feel the soundstage really expands vertically to the point where music seems to be too distant sometimes and can get lost. <Compared to Metrum Pavane as DAC which offers more density due to a more analogue sounding tone as well as reducing soundstage/ dynamics to a large extent>.
> 
> ...


Just thinking laterally for a second:

If the DAVE would be the only input to the preamp, have you considered trying using active speakers instead? There are a few posts in this thread detailing which active speakers seem to have excellent synergy with the DAVE.
Alternatively there are also quite a few posts relating to people connecting the DAVE directly to higher efficiency speakers, to discover the purest DAVE sound possible (some just for desktop use, but others for use in smaller rooms, providing that you do not need ear-shattering levels of sound)
Those posts may interest you, before you make any decision.


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## Triode User (Aug 19, 2017)

thunder 99 said:


> In regards to pre-amps and DAVE I had an interesting little scenario I was  hoping to get some advice on:
> 
> I have the Chord DAVE and Vitus Amp (RI300). I find the sound via my Wilson Audio WP6 to be clean & sharp with good attack. Transparency and resolution are to die for. Incredible dynamics and rich detail. Not analytical but it clearly lacks the analogue sounding darker “punch/impact” which I sometimes find a bit too much. However my main issue with this combination is that I feel the soundstage really expands vertically to the point where music seems to be too distant sometimes and can get lost. <Compared to Metrum Pavane as DAC which offers more density due to a more analogue sounding tone as well as reducing soundstage/ dynamics to a large extent>.
> 
> ...



I'm just trying to get my head around what you are trying to achieve here.

Are you saying that the Metrum Pavane has a reduced sound stage and dynamics compared to Dave but you prefer that?? REALLY?

So, anyway, about your desire to try tubes. I am not quite sure what you think tubes are going to bring to your party. You heard the WA5LE 300B amp with Dave and did not like what you call treble spikes. Maybe the issue isn't the 300B as such but might be the implementation in that amp?

Unfortunately I think the only way you are going to be able to make some decisions is to have a beauty parade of some amps in your home with your speakers and your room.

My experience has been with 2A3 and 845 tube monobloc power amps. The 2A3 is similar in many ways to a 300B and my amps were push-pull configuration producing 15w per channel. Even though I have quite efficient speakers I eventually ditched the 2A3 amps to get some more power and so went for 845 push-pull amps to get that lovely mix of sweet treble and mid range but also low down grunt as well.

Yes, I do find that tube power amps are better with a pre amp in between them and Dave but this is not because I am trying to flavour the sound or manipulate it. I just find that Dave direct into tube power amps gives a flat and flabby sound. A pre amp for me brings it back to what Dave is capable of. I use a Music First passive transformer pre amp (I prefer the silver wound transformer version - the copper one sounds 'closed in' to me).

Your ss amp at the moment is pretty impressive. I can only advise you to get hold of some of your alternatives and listen to them and compare to your current ss amp but do try with and without a pre amp with the tube amps so you can evaluate what that does.

Sorry not to be able to give more specific advice.

PS. I did try Dave direct into some very efficient speakers but I cannot say it did it for me at all.

Edited to say that of course tubes do look cool as well as sounding great. So here are some pics of mine.


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## Jawed

thunder 99 said:


> I have the Chord DAVE and Vitus Amp (RI300). I find the sound via my Wilson Audio WP6 to be clean & sharp with good attack. Transparency and resolution are to die for. Incredible dynamics and rich detail. Not analytical but it clearly lacks the analogue sounding darker “punch/impact” which I sometimes find a bit too much. However my main issue with this combination is that I feel the soundstage really expands vertically to the point where music seems to be too distant sometimes and can get lost. <Compared to Metrum Pavane as DAC which offers more density due to a more analogue sounding tone as well as reducing soundstage/ dynamics to a large extent>


Maybe you need to change the speaker positioning.

Your old DAC and speakers are tuned for each other. DAVE sounds different from your old DAC, so it might require you to change your speaker setup.

So, for example, your speakers might be better if they are moved slightly closer together. This will make the sound from the speakers more important and the reflections of sound from the side walls of your room less important. This will increase the focus, making it easier to hear the imagery that the speakers are trying to give you, with less blur (or fake airiness) caused by the sound bouncing around in the room.

Now playing: Tori Amos - Hey Jupiter


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## thunder 99

Would like to stay away from Active speakers for the time just because non active speakers are more common and in Australia it would be a task to find them anyway, more time I can afford right now. Yes I was considering the Alnicos that romaz likes. Again demo-ing is the issue.

Re: triode user
In regards to Metrum, sometimes a simple voice is more engaging but yes I do find it boring after a while, a short while, whereas with the DAVE, you can hear all the nuances. Also the R2R design of the metrum plays very well with a WA5LE Tube sound so with headphones at least, the sound is more real and much more engaging than with the DAVE so that (at least in headphones) the resolution advantage of the DAVE sometimes matters less for my listening experience. I think you are right, I need to listen to a few amps. I feel why I am harking on 300B is Im in total love with them – 300B coupled with Takatsuki tubes as well as the right VT231. And I want to transfer some of that raw thickness and coloration to the relatively clinical DAVE but not fully overwhelm it either (which is why at the moment I just want to stick with solid state), so a preamp sounded like the best compromise to me.
I have heard the DAVE with other implementations of 300B with the same result – Mids are to absolutely die for but the treble is where the issues are at.

Re: Jawed
I will try speaker positioning. From what I’ve read Wilsons can be picky regarding that. And I guess fake airiness is what one of my issues is - the soundstage is so damn vertically wide that instruments get lost and there’s an artificial amount of vertical separation between them.


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## ecwl

I agree with Jawed on the speaker positioning. Sometimes, this "vertically wide" soundstage which I suspect means too much depth? Is actually the instruments sounding thin because the speakers are spaced too far apart or the speakers are not toed-in enough. If the bass sounds pretty good already, instead of moving your speakers, you may just want to toe them in slightly more. A few degrees maybe enough.

The bigger issue I think it's just one of personal preference. I think the sound you described you liked from tube amplifiers + Metrum Pavane is partly coming from 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortions. It can create an artificially warmer sound where the instruments artificially feel more 3-dimensional but you lose details in the sound. You like what you like so pairing tube amplifiers with DAVE instead of Vitus with DAVE can probably solve the problem. Moreover, I have seen and heard systems with tubes and R2R DACs where because the sound is so much artificially warmer that they purposefully set the speakers further apart to thin out the effects.


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## thunder 99

Positioning actually has made a LOT of difference!!! Absolutely stunned, recordings sound a lot more natural in terms of their placement etc. Thanks!


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## thunder 99

That was very helpful Jawed / ECWL. Yup to my ears warmer (without being darker/loss of detail) = more engaging, and my headphone preference is LCD4s for that reason too.
Look the positioning has made so much of a difference that I don't even think I need any pre-amp now - this is unbelievable - Sound is exactly where I want to be. I ended up moving the speakers closer to the wall as well as toed them in a bit (not much). Instruments don't sound thin at all and the texture of individual instruments is immediately obvious (was lacking previously) make them sound deeper than what my recollection of the piece was.

I guess the 2nd question I now have is - Is their anyway to limit the dynamic swing, its a small room 3 x 3m and the highs say on the LOTR OST is very high (but cymbals are not harsh so system is again where I would like it to be). Usually this would be a good thing but because of this I have to turn the volume down and thus loose out where 80% of the soundtrack lies & I guess room dynamics now come into play a bit, a larger room wouldve been a bit more forgiving of the dynamic high. 

I guess I could try an alternate speaker cable. But in non acoustically treated rooms, what do you guys feel about room correction hardware like the DEQX systems. Thanks


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## ecwl

I just put on LOTR OST to have a listen. At times, the music is a bit bright in the highs so maybe it's really just the recording. Like that music they played in the Hobbiton scenes sound kind of bright in the highs. And I'm quite certain I have my speakers setup where nothing else sounds bright. So I'd say before making further changes, listen to many other albums first. unless LOTR OST is the only music you listen to then by all means, tune your whole system to that album.

That said, if you listen to other albums and you still find there's too much highs, there are two tricks. One possibility is that you've over-corrected in the toe-in so you're getting too much high frequency from the tweeter. You can toe out a little but you'll lose that warmth. So you would need to move the speakers just slightly closer together to get the warmth back. The more the tweeter is firing directly at your ears, the more high frequency you get in general.

Another possibility is that the tweeter position is fine, but you're getting high frequency reflections from the back or the sides of the room. My couch is to the wall so I put two plush pillows behind my ears to absorb the high frequency sounds that comes from the speakers. If your couch is in front of a wall, you may want to hang a softly mounted painting or photo that dips behind your ears where the speakers tweeters fire towards or some cloths or tapestries to help absorb the high frequency reflections. Similar if you get side wall reflections, you should do that too.

The best book about room acoustics that's actually practical to implement is Jim Smith's Get Better Sound. Best money you'll ever spend. He has a DVD set too but I don't like it as much although most reviewers prefer the DVD.

I wouldn't tune sound with speaker cables. DEQX I think converts the sample rate so it would destroy all the goodness of DAVE. If you absolutely must DSP, like I do in my system, figuring out how to implement some simple parametric EQs by measurements and implementing them in software like JRiver and then outputting the EQ's digital sound to DAVE is probably the better way to go. But 100% read Jim Smith's Get better Sound at least 3 times and do the best you can with your system physically first before using DSPs.

Time to switch out LOTR OST on Tidal...


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## thunder 99

This is great!. I didn't realize speaker placement correction by even a few degrees would make a component level difference, but to my ears the DAVE (most important part of my system) sounds totally different in slightly different speaker placements. I am going to buy this book today, dont think amazon ships it to Australia but will get a local to send it.
What do you feel about Roon and the EQ they have over PC/JRiver? Advantage being that I can install Roon onto my Antipodes DX which is the much more Audiophile way to go for me.


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## ecwl

My take on EQ/DSP, which is not covered in Jim Smith's Get Better Sound book is that without something measure, it's impossible to "tune" the sound by ear. In fact, for some of the more advanced stuff Jim Smith suggested, I found there's no way with my lack of audio experience to be able to tune by ear. I usually recommend people to review JIm Smith's Get Better Sound first. And when they think they've run out of things to do based on the book, to then go out and buy a real-time analyzer. The cheapest ones are available from miniDSP. Some work with iOS devices, while others with PCs. I personally own XTZ Room Analyzer but if I were to buy something today, I'd go with miniDSP microphones and REW (the freeware RoomEQ Wizard). The learning curve for REW is a little steep. But the whole point is that you need the computer to figure out how to EQ. But as Jim Smith likes to say, physical EQ first (which means moving your seat, speakers and some simple room treatments).

Also, I think you can buy the book +/- the DVD set directly from Jim SMith's GetBetterSound.com website.


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## thunder 99

And what do you feel about Roon, I think they have a EQ as well? 
Thanks


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## ecwl

Roon EQ should work just fine. But you still need to know what to set the EQ parameters to. That's where a microphone and REW helps


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## thunder 99

Understood, thats great thanks!


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## TheAttorney

thunder 99 said:


> .
> What do you feel about Roon and the EQ they have over PC/JRiver? Advantage being that I can install Roon onto my Antipodes DX which is the much more Audiophile way to go for me.



I think Roon parametric EQ is great: Easy to use and doesn't seem to negatively impact SQ.
JRiver's standard EQ isn't flexible enough. It also has parametric EQ that looks as if could be very flexible, but after about a minute of trying (without reading any instructions) I decided I would not get along with its UI (I'm an impatient man).

I'm sure ecwl is right about loudspeakers and room EQ, but I think it's much simpler for headphones: Just google a FR measurements chart of your model headphones to get a start point, then fine tune by ear.


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## Jawed (Aug 20, 2017)

Glad to hear that speaker positioning has made a worthwhile improvement!

I have to admit the idea of your speakers in a 3m x 3m listening room is astonishing. I think of those speakers in rooms of about 5m x 7m or larger!

This probably means that your head is very close to the wall behind you. I'm afraid to say that the reflections off this wall are going to be a serious problem, creating a lot of confusion in the sound (the reason is a room acoustic effect called comb filtering). In this situation you might like to try to move your speakers close to the wall behind them and to move your seat as close to the centre of the room as you can comfortably get.

Normally when you move speakers close to a wall, this increases the perceived bass. To counteract this, move your head away from a wall which lowers the perceived bass.

Additionally, normally when you move speakers close to the wall behind them, this affects the treble quality, because it increases the proportion of high frequency sound that is reflecting from the near wall. And this reflected sound will suffer from the comb filter problem.

So, which problem is worse: comb filtering due to the wall near your head or comb filtering due to the speakers being near the wall? In general, the former is worse: your ears are designed to hear sound from behind you. But speakers are designed so that most high frequency sound doesn't bounce off the wall behind them (the shape of the speaker cabinet hinders the treble sound firing backwards). So, the comb filtering problem in a small room is improved by moving your head away from the wall.

But when you move your seat away from the wall behind you, you will lose bass power. So move the speakers closer to the wall to bring back some bass power.

It's a balancing act. Hours of experimentation beckon...

Now playing: Dub Trio - Illegal Dub


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## Triode User (Aug 20, 2017)

ecwl said:


> The bigger issue I think it's just one of personal preference. I think the sound you described you liked from tube amplifiers + Metrum Pavane is partly coming from 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortions. It can create an artificially warmer sound where the instruments artificially feel more 3-dimensional but you lose details in the sound. You like what you like so pairing tube amplifiers with DAVE instead of Vitus with DAVE can probably solve the problem. Moreover, I have seen and heard systems with tubes and R2R DACs where because the sound is so much artificially warmer that they purposefully set the speakers further apart to thin out the effects.



Here we go again with tubes being described as having a warmer sound or at least appearing to have a warmer sound.

Sorry but my experience of modern tube amps is that this isn't the case at all.

Edit to say not meaning to be antagonistic.


----------



## nicoludio

thunder 99 said:


> I guess the 2nd question I now have is - Is their anyway to limit the dynamic swing, its a small room 3 x 3m and the highs say on the LOTR OST is very high (but cymbals are not harsh so system is again where I would like it to be). Usually this would be a good thing but because of this I have to turn the volume down and thus loose out where 80% of the soundtrack lies & I guess room dynamics now come into play a bit, a larger room wouldve been a bit more forgiving of the dynamic high.
> 
> I guess I could try an alternate speaker cable. But in non acoustically treated rooms, what do you guys feel about room correction hardware like the DEQX systems. Thanks



Quite amazed (in a good way) that you managed to fit the Puppies into that room size. I would have thought that the bass would have been overblown and the early reflections would mess up the sound a bit, especially on the orchestral peaks. 

If you are considering digital room correction, you might want to take a look at Accourate (http://www.audiovero.de/en/index.php) and this article (https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...-Loudspeaker-Correction-Software-Walkthrough/).  Requires a PC, amongst others, though and I am not sure how it would integrate with your Antipodes server but short of getting a bigger room ...


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## Malcyg

Some really useful info in here, thanks.


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## nicoludio (Aug 21, 2017)

Malcyg said:


> Yes, I did. I was a very early adopter of the Melco and have found it to be a very good and reliable device, but the lack of an app and, more pertinent for me, the lack of integration with Roon meant that I could not use it the way that it sounded best in my system - which was direct out of USB into the DAC.
> 
> By straight comparison, I found the Zenith MkII to sound notably better - more musical and relaxed - and the SE is another league entirely. Mind you, I have the N1-A, so comparing with the SE is not really a fair comparison. Nonetheless, several dealers have been raving about the SE, and rightly so in my opinion.



Interesting observations. Its been a while since I read this entire thread from the beginning but I was under the impression that the DAVE is relatively source insensitive when using its USB input.  I use the Melco N1A  but have been exploring alternatives, mainly to try Acourate and, possibly, ROON.

In view of ecwl's experience of ROON vs JRiver on the Blu 2 thread (see quote below), I am wondering if the improvements you noticed could have been due to ROON on the Innuos being better than Twonky (or MinimServer) running on the Melco?  Or even the fact that the Innous USB outputs directly to the DAVE whereas the Netgear router is in the signal pathway for the Melco USB output?

I could have possibly misunderstood your system configuration when comparing the Melco USB output vs the Innuous SE USB output.  No criticism intended here; I am just trying to understand how the various variables matter.  Thanks.



ecwl said:


> I have finally changed my mind about how source-dependent Blu2 is. I think I and many others have said before, compared to other DACs (including the old Chord QBD76HDSD), Chord DAVE is less source-dependent as I can barely hear any difference when I change my computer settings, whereas I have found with my current computer setup, I cannot hear a difference when going through Blu2. I presumed that's because Blu2 has even better galvanic isolation than Chord DAVE. Keep in mind I run a low-powered PC with an SoTM USB card with linear power supply called CAPSv3 Carbon that was designed by Computer Audiophile website. Because I need a bit of parametric EQ for my speakers (since I can't physically remove the bass peaks without turning my living room into an old-school hi-fi shop), I was running JRiver on the headless PC and when listening to Tidal, I run the Tidal app and let JRiver capture the Tidal audio stream to DSP it before sending it to Blu2. So I acknowledge there probably is some degree of noise going from the PC into the Blu2.
> 
> For totally unrelated reasons (I got tired of remote desktop into the PC to access Tidal), I decided to try Roon out. Roon is run from my desktop. So I only installed Roon Bridge on the CAPSv3 Carbon for music playback. I shut down JRiver and Tidal. And I was shocked by the sonic improvement in terms of transparency, detail and dynamics. And I don't think it's because the parametric EQ implemented by Roon is significantly different than JRiver. I would say the improvements were much more dramatic than when I switched out my Shunyata Venom power cable and stock BNC cables for Nordost Heimdall 2 cables. So clearly, Blu2 can still improve with better USB sources. And I would concur with what others have said here that if you have the money, you should consider upgrading your USB source first before upgrading power/digital interconnect cables. That said, I was perfectly happy and amazed with Blu2 sound even prior to this recent change. So I wouldn't rush to switch USB sources if that's not in your upgrade pipeline.


----------



## Malcyg

nicoludio said:


> Interesting observations. Its been a while since I read this entire thread from the beginning but I was under the impression that the DAVE is relatively source insensitive when using its USB input.  I use the Melco N1A  but have been exploring alternatives, mainly to try Acourate and, possibly, ROON.
> 
> In view of ecwl's experience of ROON vs JRiver on the Blu 2 thread (see quote below), I am wondering if the improvements you noticed could have been due to ROON on the Innuos being better than Twonky (or MinimServer) running on the Melco?  Or even the fact that the Innous USB outputs directly to the DAVE whereas the Netgear router is in the signal pathway for the Melco USB output?
> 
> I could have possibly misunderstood your system configuration when comparing the Melco USB output vs the Innuous SE USB output.  No criticism intended here; I am just trying to understand how the various variables matter.  Thanks.



I think you understand it almost right. I previously had a PC as Roon core which dragged files from Melco, through the router and output them again, via router, to a mRendu. For Melco output by USB direct to DAC without going through the router does not involve Roon at all as Melco cannot interact with Roon in anyway other than just being a designated file server, so not comparing exactly like with like. I don't believe that the degree of difference can be down to Roon vs Twonky to be honest but the Zenith SE is not a fair comparison with a Melco N1-A and a higher model Melco like the N1-Z would be a fairer test.


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## rkt31

furutech is OEM supplier to many big brands including nordost. http://www.furutech.com/oem/  . so getting a cable made through furutech top of the line bulk cables and plugs is still cheaper yet better than even the most expensive readymade branded cables .


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## Triode User

rkt31 said:


> furutech is OEM supplier to many big brands including nordost. http://www.furutech.com/oem/  . so getting a cable made through furutech top of the line bulk cables and plugs is still cheaper yet better than even the most expensive readymade branded cables .



I am sorry but you have lost me here. Was this in relation to something that has been raised?


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## DaveRedRef-III

I am considering testing easy to drive monitors from Dave Dacs RCA outlets. Can anyone tell me how many watts these RCAs provide?


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## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I am considering testing easy to drive monitors from Dave Dacs RCA outlets. Can anyone tell me how many watts these RCAs provide?



I am sure I recollect this having been asked before on the forum and answered. Have you tried a search of the forum?

Of course watts depend on the impedance of speakers you are anticipating trying.


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## DaveRedRef-III

Well the Omega CAM is 8ohm but I think they offer to set up a connection in series for 16 ohm TU. 

Btw I didn't search 'Watts' because I can guess there will be a huge number of posts turn up with Robs name.


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## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Well the Omega CAM is 8ohm but I think they offer to set up a connection in series for 16 ohm TU.
> 
> Btw I didn't search 'Watts' because I can guess there will be a huge number of posts turn up with Robs name.



Ah, I see your point. Maybe he will consider changing his name . . . . . .


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## Muataz (Aug 22, 2017)

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I am considering testing easy to drive monitors from Dave Dacs RCA outlets. Can anyone tell me how many watts these RCAs provide?


I believe they will not drive them as per the design ( as stated before for XLR output)
You can only by the headphone amp only which I think may have 1.5 watt at 8Ohm ( I could not find the number anymore but from my memory )

If you will do it be careful with low impedance & don't exceed the rated sensitivity of the speaker and use db meter better and if you go -6db below rated sensitivity that will give better headroom and safer operation


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## DaveRedRef-III (Aug 22, 2017)

This is why I have asked so thanks for the reply. I had seen people such as Romaz comment on running Omega speakers from the Dave Dac. Omega speakers can be run with as low as 2 watts. This is again is why I want to check the output of the Dac. I can see now that the headphone socket would be the logical outlet for such an arrangement.


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## miketlse (Aug 22, 2017)

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I am considering testing easy to drive monitors from Dave Dacs RCA outlets. Can anyone tell me how many watts these RCAs provide?


I seem to remember a number of thr order of 2 watts. Post #6930


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## Jawed

The RCA sockets have the same power output as the headphone socket.

Which reminds me I was tempted, for a while, to run Stax headphones off Woo Wee:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/wee-new-product-from-woo-audio.504471/

connected to DAVE. DAVE would have about the minimum voltage swing to make this practical, as far as I can tell. But I decided I couldn't be bothered. Wee is huge, not wee, which is a big problem for me too.

Obviously voltage swing and power are not the same things, but to drive speakers off DAVE you need volts and amps - which both the RCA and headphone sockets provide.

Now playing: Rin Oikawa - She Said


----------



## Triode User

miketlse said:


> I seem to remember a number of thr order of 2 watts. Post #6930



This review also mentions the 2W into 8ohms.

https://audiobacon.net/2017/08/22/c...d-transport-review-digital-dressed-in-analog/


----------



## darkless (Aug 23, 2017)

I've been driving my Tannoy Canterbury GR speakers directly from the DAVE RCA outs for some time now. They are 8 Ohm nominal 5 Ohm minimal impedance. As long as you don't listen very loudly and/or do a lot of digital EQ (thus eating up the headroom), you'll be fine. I'm expecting a Benchmark AHB2 within a few weeks, so hopefully I won't lose much in terms of transparency while gaining more headroom.


----------



## rkt31

Triode User said:


> I am sorry but you have lost me here. Was this in relation to something that has been raised?



actually i was posting in the context of nordost power cable in some previous post.


----------



## Triode User

rkt31 said:


> actually i was posting in the context of nordost power cable in some previous post.



Without the quoting the post you were commenting on and with other intervening posts on it was difficult to know.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Well, I'll be joining the club...ETA for my DAVE is later this week! Can't wait to give it a thorough listen. I loved what I heard at RMAF last year!


----------



## Tom Blake

Me too! Ordered yesterday but it will be a few weeks yet until it arrives. So excited!


----------



## MacedonianHero

Tom Blake said:


> Me too! Ordered yesterday but it will be a few weeks yet until it arrives. So excited!



Mine is showing this Thursday...fingers crossed!

Gonna be selling off some superfluous gear to help pay for it. If anyone is interested in a fantastic Benchmark DAC3 HGC please let me know. Later this week, I'll have my KTE Level 3 DAC / KTE SU-1 and HeadAmp GS-X Mk2 up.


----------



## jlbrach

great thing about the dave is with most headphones it does not need an external amp....thus saving money on the amp and the dave amp is actually very good......i have a moon 430 but i do not use it because i think the dave sounds best straight from the source


----------



## Clive101 (Aug 28, 2017)

MacedonianHero said:


> Mine is showing this Thursday...fingers crossed!
> 
> Gonna be selling off some superfluous gear to help pay for it. If anyone is interested in a fantastic Benchmark DAC3 HGC please let me know. Later this week, I'll have my KTE Level 3 DAC / KTE SU-1 and HeadAmp GS-X Mk2 up.



Welcome to the club. I have tried a number of headphone amps and also agree the Dave pre straight into headphones is very difficult to beat.

Please may I know if you try Dave with your GS-X which you prefer ...?

Recently I have a brief time with the Questyle Gold Stack and compared to Dave. The result dare I say on this forum but I found the Questyle IMO very musical. At this level and cost both perform  well but I did prefer the Questyle ( only tested with LCD4 ) i could live with both and perhaps i found the change refreshing.

I am not an expert or have trained ears but if i were on headphones only would have picked Questyle, I did not test in my Hifi system but would expect Dave to perform better as I tested the Questyle in a number of ways, it seemed the synergy of the system complimented the Questyle DAC.

So I am more than pleased with Dave and if the Mscaler ever comes look forward that as well.

Look forward to your comments with Dave direct to headphones


----------



## Tom Blake

MacedonianHero said:


> Mine is showing this Thursday...fingers crossed!
> 
> Gonna be selling off some superfluous gear to help pay for it. If anyone is interested in a fantastic Benchmark DAC3 HGC please let me know. Later this week, I'll have my KTE Level 3 DAC / KTE SU-1 and HeadAmp GS-X Mk2 up.


+1. I'm going to be selling a LOT of gear to fund the DAVE. I'll be simplifying my system quite a bit and using the DAVE as amp for my Utopias and pre for my speaker rig. I went for black finish with the black/nickel stand.


----------



## Tom Blake

I'm starting to wade through this very long thread. I am curious though what people have found to be good AC cables to pair with the DAVE at an under $1K price point for 2M. I'll have to start with the stock cable due to the very large expenditure I have just made but would be looking to upgrade when I can.


----------



## Clive101

Tom Blake said:


> I'm starting to wade through this very long thread. I am curious though what people have found to be good AC cables to pair with the DAVE at an under $1K price point for 2M. I'll have to start with the stock cable due to the very large expenditure I have just made but would be looking to upgrade when I can.



Your get more value  if you were to connect a single power chord to a mains block to condition all your system.
I found the SUB 1 k cost power cable were not as good as for example a Chord Sarum T ( other cables available )

If you purchase a mains block you may be able to use a 1mt length but other people I have spoken with seem to indicate a longer power cable ( sarum t or similar ) make more of a difference.

I purchased a Torus never looked back, as soon as you try one the money is spent.

The most important issue is test before you purchase power treatment is very important and the difference it brings.

Many ways of doing the same job.

Trying a Chord Sarum T or Torus changed my view on Power Treatment.


----------



## SuperBurrito

MacedonianHero said:


> Mine is showing this Thursday...fingers crossed!



Mine is incoming too.  Ordered nearly 7 weeks ago, seems like forever. Finally it shipped from England to the N. America distributor last week.


----------



## Malcyg

Congratulations chaps - happy listening. Let us all know how you get on.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Tom Blake said:


> I'm starting to wade through this very long thread. I am curious though what people have found to be good AC cables to pair with the DAVE at an under $1K price point for 2M. I'll have to start with the stock cable due to the very large expenditure I have just made but would be looking to upgrade when I can.


I'm very happy with the latest Pangea AC14SEII  better than any of the really expensive ones and around $60 US AC9SEII for power amps and power conditioners about $200 US


----------



## paulchiu

wow.  so many new DAVE owners.  Welcome to you all...


----------



## Tom Blake

SuperBurrito said:


> Mine is incoming too.  Ordered nearly 7 weeks ago, seems like forever. Finally it shipped from England to the N. America distributor last week.


I hope mine doesn't take 7 weeks! Dealer told me 2-3 weeks. Apparently they are made to order? Makes sense considering the dollar value. I am sure Chord does not want to inventory many DAVEs. I'll be fine with my Gumby until then.


----------



## Tom Blake (Aug 29, 2017)

Question for the DAVE experts here... Is the USB input the best sounding? Nearly 100% of my listening source is a dedicated Roon Server running Windows Server 2016 and Audiophile Optimizer 2.2b5. I come out of the server via a SOtM Cat 8 ethernet cable and into a Sonore ultraRendu, In my present system I feed USB from the ultraRendu into a Mutec MC-3+ USB. From the Mutec I go into a Schiit Gumby via BNC. I have the Mutec because the Gen 3 USB input does not sound as good on the Schiit as BNC. With the DAVE I am assuming my best bet is to ditch the Mutec and come straight out of the ultraRendu into the DAVE via USB. I am assuming DAVE needs no USB decrappifiers due to the galvanic isolation on its USB input? Additionally the Mutec will limit my sample rates to 192 kHz and it does not pass a native DSD signal like the ultraRendu can. The ultraRendu can match the DAVE with up to 768K PCM and DSD512. Thanks!


----------



## Malcyg

Tom Blake said:


> Question for the DAVE experts here... Is the USB input the best sounding? Nearly 100% of my listening source is a dedicated Roon Server running Windows Server 2016 and Audiophile Optimizer 2.2b5. I come out of the server via a SOtM Cat 8 ethernet cable and into a Sonore ultraRendu, In my present system I feed USB from the ultraRendu into a Mutec MC-3+ USB. From the Mutec I go into a Schiit Gumby via BNC, I have the Mutec because the Gen 3 USB input does not sound as good on the Schiit as BNC. With the DAVE I am assuming my best bet is to ditch the Mutec and come straight out of the ultraRendu into the DAVE via USB. I am assuming DAVE needs no USB decrappifiers due to the galvanic isolation on its USB input? Additionally the Mutec will limit my sample rates to 192 kHz and it does not pass a native DSD signal like the ultraRendu can. The ultraRendu can match the DAVE with up to 768K PCM and DSD512. Thanks!



Personally, I'd go straight in via USB. I found USB to be best and BNC to be the least preferred input on Dave with my other gear.


----------



## SuperBurrito

Tom Blake said:


> I hope mine doesn't take 7 weeks! Dealer told me 2-3 weeks. Apparently they are made to order? Makes sense considering the dollar value. I am sure Chord does not want to inventory many DAVEs. I'll be fine with my Gumby until then.



From what I gather, the North American distributor was totally out of stock and they just received a fresh shimpent from Chord.  My dealer said there has been super strong demand in the US, England and Japan for the Dave.  Combine that with limited parts supply and probably limited manufacturing capacity, and I'd bet that production is in pretty low volumes.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Clive101 said:


> Welcome to the club. I have tried a number of headphone amps and also agree the Dave pre straight into headphones is very difficult to beat.
> 
> Please may I know if you try Dave with your GS-X which you prefer ...?
> 
> ...



I will definitely try my dynamic headphones straight from my DAVE and with the DAVE coupled with my GS-X Mk2 before I list the GS-X Mk2 for sale.


----------



## GryphonGuy

MacedonianHero said:


> I will definitely try my dynamic headphones straight from my DAVE and with the DAVE coupled with my GS-X Mk2 before I list the GS-X Mk2 for sale.



I auditioned a GS-X Mk2 with Utopia and DAVE. Stunning stuff and made standing difficult as my knees became weak at the sounds and music that combo produced. You could never justify the expense of the GS-X Mk2 if you have a DAVE but didn't already have a GS-X Mk2. The DAVE is that good IMHO. If you already have the GS-X Mk2 then the keep/sell decision will be a highly personal one. I wouldn't let go of a superb piece of kit like the GS-X Mk2 if I already owned it. Might be useful from time-to-time.

Regards
GG


----------



## MacedonianHero

GryphonGuy said:


> I auditioned a GS-X Mk2 with Utopia and DAVE. Stunning stuff and made standing difficult as my knees became weak at the sounds and music that combo produced. You could never justify the expense of the GS-X Mk2 if you have a DAVE but didn't already have a GS-X Mk2. The DAVE is that good IMHO. If you already have the GS-X Mk2 then the keep/sell decision will be a highly personal one. I wouldn't let go of a superb piece of kit like the GS-X Mk2 if I already owned it. Might be useful from time-to-time.
> 
> Regards
> GG



We shall see..


----------



## jlbrach

what i find so extraordinary is the fact that a 2 year old product as expensive as the Dave is should be so difficult to come by.....says a hell of a lot about the quality of the product


----------



## thunder 99

Hi guys,
Just wondering if anyone has paired a Chord DAVE with a 300B amplifier?.
I am currently looking at using a WA234 with the DAVE. But my impression is that Woo Audio amps don't pair well with the output of DAVE as DAC or Preamp. Wondering if anyone else has had issues especially the treble becoming very harsh and artificial. And wondering if that has something to do with the 6V output of the DAVE?
Thanks


----------



## ray-dude

jlbrach said:


> what i find so extraordinary is the fact that a 2 year old product as expensive as the Dave is should be so difficult to come by.....says a hell of a lot about the quality of the product



I think it may be an indication of how extraordinarily messed up their supply chain is right now (whether because of Brexit or whatever).  The Blu2 saga continues, and I wonder if they're having supply chain issues with the FPGA in the DAVE as well?  For the Blu2, it is shocking that they weren't able to secure any reasonable quantities of the literal (sole sourced) heart of their new product well ahead of time.   That's the kind of thing you lock down commitments for a year before your ramp.

I have tremendous empathy for what the Chord team is going through...stumbling on sole source supplier dependencies is an absolute nightmare.  I


----------



## paulchiu

thunder 99 said:


> Hi guys,
> Just wondering if anyone has paired a Chord DAVE with a 300B amplifier?.
> I am currently looking at using a WA234 with the DAVE. But my impression is that Woo Audio amps don't pair well with the output of DAVE as DAC or Preamp. Wondering if anyone else has had issues especially the treble becoming very harsh and artificial. And wondering if that has something to do with the 6V output of the DAVE?
> Thanks



I use DAVE with Thöress 300B and Cary 300B amps using tubes from the 1950s to current stock from Russia to Japan.  
The imaging is fuller with sweet vocals together with the DAVE.
So, in short it depends on the amp and the 300B.  Results will vary.  I never heard the WA234.


----------



## SuperDuke

thunder 99 said:


> Hi guys,
> Just wondering if anyone has paired a Chord DAVE with a 300B amplifier?.
> I am currently looking at using a WA234 with the DAVE. But my impression is that Woo Audio amps don't pair well with the output of DAVE as DAC or Preamp. Wondering if anyone else has had issues especially the treble becoming very harsh and artificial. And wondering if that has something to do with the 6V output of the DAVE?
> Thanks



DAVE is great w. the EC Balancing act.  Lots of detail and body.  I had no problem w/ the 6V output of DAVE.  (the BA is designed rather conservatively though so it's less than typical 300b output)


----------



## Triode User

thunder 99 said:


> Hi guys,
> Just wondering if anyone has paired a Chord DAVE with a 300B amplifier?.
> I am currently looking at using a WA234 with the DAVE. But my impression is that Woo Audio amps don't pair well with the output of DAVE as DAC or Preamp. Wondering if anyone else has had issues especially the treble becoming very harsh and artificial. And wondering if that has something to do with the 6V output of the DAVE?
> Thanks



I havent used dave with a 300B but I have used it with 2A3 monos and 845 monos. My experience is that dave does not do well going straight into the tube monos and it is better with  preamp. Without a pre amp I find the sound to lack focus and bass goes all flabby. I set the dave to about 0db then use the pre amp for volume control. If you set the dave to 6v output then also you might overload the power amp which will give distortion.


----------



## thunder 99

Triode User said:


> I havent used dave with a 300B but I have used it with 2A3 monos and 845 monos. My experience is that dave does not do well going straight into the tube monos and it is better with  preamp. Without a pre amp I find the sound to lack focus and bass goes all flabby. I set the dave to about 0db then use the pre amp for volume control. If you set the dave to 6v output then also you might overload the power amp which will give distortion.


Which preamp were you using? I am having similar issues re:lack of focus though someone using a Thorens 300B have said the treble is not an issue for them, it is mellow and detail elsewhere is preserved. So seriously confused about whether this combination works and has synergy or not. Currently using DAVE with Vitus and they sound awesome.
The other part of the issue which I guess isnt strictly part of this thread but useful in the current contex - I am looking at a pair of WA234's to be able to be used with the DAVE. Saying that DAVE can work well with a dedicated tube preamp, what do you feel a WA234 modded to be a preamp will sound like intrinsically - I guess its not just simply adding a couple of outputs but redesigning the output stage completely which may not be optimally accomplished just by modding a head amp?
Thanks


----------



## Triode User

thunder 99 said:


> Which preamp were you using? I am having similar issues re:lack of focus though someone using a Thorens 300B have said the treble is not an issue for them, it is mellow and detail elsewhere is preserved. So seriously confused about whether this combination works and has synergy or not. Currently using DAVE with Vitus and they sound awesome.
> The other part of the issue which I guess isnt strictly part of this thread but useful in the current contex - I am looking at a pair of WA234's to be able to be used with the DAVE. Saying that DAVE can work well with a dedicated tube preamp, what do you feel a WA234 modded to be a preamp will sound like intrinsically - I guess its not just simply adding a couple of outputs but redesigning the output stage completely which may not be optimally accomplished just by modding a head amp?
> Thanks



I was using an Icon Audio LA5 TX pre amp but now use a Music First transformer volume control passive pre. Both made the Dave and tube poweramp combination sound amazing. Dave used as a pre straight into the tube monos was not happy.

Sorry but I can't comment about other amps.


----------



## dmance (Aug 30, 2017)

Triode User said:


> I was using an Icon Audio LA5 TX pre amp but now use a Music First transformer volume control passive pre. Both made the Dave and tube poweramp combination sound amazing. Dave used as a pre straight into the tube monos was not happy.
> 
> Sorry but I can't comment about other amps.



Those chiming in...please quote amplifier input impedance and input voltage gain ...and then similar for the pre-amp .to see what Dave is sensitive to.  Re: Music First, why a passive device in the chain matters I have no idea.


----------



## Triode User (Aug 31, 2017)

dmance said:


> Those chiming in...please quote amplifier input impedance and input voltage gain ...and then similar for the pre-amp .to see what Dave is sensitive to.  Re: Music First, why a passive device in the chain matters I have no idea.



The Music First is a TVC, ie a Transformer Volume Control. If you are not familiar with this type pf passive then there is plenty of info on the web. Basically it gives 0dB to -52dB reduction in signal level (it can give +6dB but I do not use that switch position). The point is that it doesn't just stick a resistor in to reduce the volume. By using a transformer, when the voltage is reduced the available power of the signal is not reduced. Hence why this type of pre amp is very good at driving longer than normal cables.

I have found the best sound is with Dave set at 0dB and then using the Music First Pre Amp at about -34dB to get a decent volume. The same volume can be achieved with Dave at -34dB and the pre amp at 0dB but the quality of the sound is affected (in fact it doesn't sound very good at all). Taking the Pre Amp out of the system and driving the tube power amps direct from Dave set at -34dB sounds exactly the same, same volume, same poor sound.


----------



## miketlse

@Peter Hyatt did you manage to audition that DAVE at the dealers in Zurich?


----------



## Christer

miketlse said:


> @Peter Hyatt did you manage to audition that DAVE at the dealers in Zurich?


Maybe he made it to  CGJ's Küssnacht instead?
Or maybe he went there for counselling after having auditioned DAVE and realized that HUGO 2 is not quite  the Holy Grail he had previously thought?


----------



## Peter Hyatt (Aug 31, 2017)

miketlse said:


> @Peter Hyatt did you manage to audition that DAVE at the dealers in Zurich?



I did not.  He did not have it (Geneva). 

Perhaps it was for the best.  I used the therapy money for 

Gelato 
Swiss chocolate 
Some Geneva delicacies 
Coffee and...

a dry aged steak that will be forever in my memory.


----------



## Christer (Aug 31, 2017)

Peter Hyatt said:


> I did not.  He did not have it (Geneva).
> 
> Perhaps it was for the best.  I used the therapy money for
> 
> ...


----------



## MacedonianHero (Aug 31, 2017)

Well finally settling in tonight with my new buddy: DAVE.  

Busy afternoon with son's hockey practice (yes, hockey season is now just underway here in Canada), BBQing for the in-laws and family, some yard/pool work. Well, as amazed I was with my Hugo 2 + K812 combination, things have got to a whole new level with the DAVE. Imaging is that much more expansive and real, and transparency is like nothing I've experienced with a DAC/Amp since I heard the DAVE at RMAF last fall. More to come....


----------



## JaZZ

Welcome to the club, Peter!  Glad you got it!


----------



## MacedonianHero

JaZZ said:


> Welcome to the club, Peter!  Glad you got it!



I was so thoroughly impressed after 1 evening with my K812Pro and SR-007 Mk1 headphones. It'll be fun "re-discovering" all of my headphones all over again!


----------



## Mediahound

Where are you all suddenly buying your DAVE's? Did they get marked down recently or something?


----------



## SuperBurrito

Mediahound said:


> Where are you all suddenly buying your DAVE's? Did they get marked down recently or something?



I've been reading about Dave for a long time (thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread!).  The expense is no joke to me so it took a while to be able to swing it - especially since I just upgrade my amp and speakers as well.


----------



## SuperBurrito

MacedonianHero said:


> Well finally settling in tonight with my new buddy: DAVE.
> 
> .



Congrats!  I think yours and mine must have come from England to the distributor on the same shipment, and you got yours first since the distributor is in Canada.  
Mine should arrive within the next few business days...


----------



## Tom Blake

An absolutely gorgeous stand awaiting his partner...


----------



## paulchiu

After a year plus with those gorgeous nickel chrome legs, the main issue is keeping them spotless.
good luck!


----------



## Tom Blake

I will lovingly clean it  Holy crap what power cord are you running on the DAVE?


----------



## micesol@yahoo.co

paulchiu said:


> After a year plus with those gorgeous nickel chrome legs, the main issue is keeping them spotless.
> good luck!


May I inquire as to the power cord your usei ng with your Dave?


----------



## Mediahound

micesol@yahoo.co said:


> May I inquire as to the power cord your usei ng with your Dave?



  Whatever it is, it's completely ridiculous.


----------



## paulchiu

Shunyata Sigma NR Power Cable.


----------



## jlbrach

Mediahound said:


> Whatever it is, it's completely ridiculous.



why????


----------



## ray-dude

At the other extreme, while I'm waiting (and waiting and waiting and waiting) for my Blu2 I grabbed one of these to stack on top of my DAVE:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G5ZJIRY

Basically perfect fit and worth every penny of the $17.99 I had to scrape together to get it 

Of course, if someone were to gift me the official Chord stands and a new media console to that they fit in, I would gladly trade with them


----------



## CorvetteGarage

Mediahound said:


> Whatever it is, it's completely ridiculous.



Ultra hi end power cord for ultra hi end dac. Makes perfect sense to me!


----------



## bigfatpaulie (Sep 1, 2017)

MacedonianHero said:


> Well finally settling in tonight with my new buddy: DAVE.



Hell, it's about time!

Congrats, Peter!  Just think: now you can sell your GSX


----------



## MacedonianHero

bigfatpaulie said:


> Hell, it's about time!
> 
> Congrats, Peter!  Just think: now you can sell your GSX



Thanks Paul. That's the one unit I'm still thinking about. Want to try the DAVE with all of the headphones here first (especially the power hungry LCD-4s. We shall see in a week or so.


----------



## Triode User

paulchiu said:


> Shunyata Sigma NR Power Cable.



I suspect that this sort of cable is superfluous bearing in mind the filtering already incorporated in the Dave mains input circuitry (Rob Watts says Dave mains input has "_an initial input filter, filters in the SMPS, incoming PSU input filter (ferrite beads and big inductors), then distributed RF filters throughout the circuitry, plus extensive and multiple regulation_").


----------



## GryphonGuy

Triode User said:


> I suspect that this sort of cable is superfluous bearing in mind the filtering already incorporated in the Dave mains input circuitry (Rob Watts says Dave mains input has "_an initial input filter, filters in the SMPS, incoming PSU input filter (ferrite beads and big inductors), then distributed RF filters throughout the circuitry, plus extensive and multiple regulation_").



Nope, your suspicion is baseless or unfounded, according to my situation. The changes in black background and dynamics, to name just two attributes, presented by Shunyata Sigma cables are way better audibly than even their next product down called the Alpha range. Not by much but still audible. The Chord Electronics view that the DAVE is immune from external influences is not evident in my domestic situation.

As always YMMV and clearly Triode's does.

Regards
GG


----------



## Clive101

GryphonGuy said:


> Nope, your suspicion is baseless or unfounded, according to my situation. The changes in black background and dynamics, to name just two attributes, presented by Shunyata Sigma cables are way better audibly than even their next product down called the Alpha range. Not by much but still audible. The Chord Electronics view that the DAVE is immune from external influences is not evident in my domestic situation.
> 
> As always YMMV and clearly Triode's does.
> 
> ...


I found a similar result.
If you try the cable though a mains block to condition the all the power going to your system most likely improve the SQ ..? Have you tried this and I would be interested if this does as it did for me..?


----------



## bigfatpaulie (Sep 2, 2017)

Triode User said:


> I suspect that this sort of cable is superfluous bearing in mind the filtering already incorporated in the Dave mains input circuitry (Rob Watts says Dave mains input has "_an initial input filter, filters in the SMPS, incoming PSU input filter (ferrite beads and big inductors), then distributed RF filters throughout the circuitry, plus extensive and multiple regulation_").



Hogwash.  Dave is absolutely suitable to power differences.  It is also susceptible to differences in USB sources.

EDIT: Err, rather, YMMV, IHMO blah blah for all the sensitive people.


----------



## MacedonianHero (Sep 2, 2017)

bigfatpaulie said:


> EDIT: Err, rather, YMMV, IHMO blah blah for all the sensitive people.



 Too funny Paul!

In other news, finally got around to plugging in the LCD-4s into my DAVE and it's ability to drive them is better from what I remember. Great firm grasp of both drivers...playing at -10dB ish. My (now sold) Hugo TT couldn't drive them like this...not by any means.


----------



## jlbrach

i told you the dave could drive the LCD-4...i listen from -20 to about -5 at the extreme but more often -10...great combo...the HE-1000v2 is also great and a bit more efficient


----------



## GryphonGuy

Clive101 said:


> I found a similar result.
> If you try the cable though a mains block to condition the all the power going to your system most likely improve the SQ ..? Have you tried this and I would be interested if this does as it did for me..?



I am sorry but I do not understand what your term "mains block" refers to exactly. Assuming it is a block of outlets then the equivalent I use is the Shunyata Denali filter/conditioner to great effect after my Aussie Power Station transformer and filter was shown to be chopping out the top end by a considerable amount.

I have used the Shunyata Sigma HC cable (with silver wired adapter) directly connecting a double-online UPS to DAVE and that was slightly better than the Denali system as I have it cabled. I can only afford an Alpha Digital power chord feeding DAVE with the Sigma HC feeding the Denali.

If I haven't interpreted your question correctly, I apologise, and ask that you rephrase it.

Regards
GG


----------



## MacedonianHero

jlbrach said:


> i told you the dave could drive the LCD-4...i listen from -20 to about -5 at the extreme but more often -10...great combo...the HE-1000v2 is also great and a bit more efficient



You certainly did.   That's the range I was in last night.

I still need to throw some of my more demanding DSD recordings at it and A-B with it alone and coupled with my GS-X Mk2. I'm not sure why this combo at RMAF was so darn quiet? I realize that it was a meet setting, but I got in there early with my Press Pass (for Headphone.Guru) and it was fairly calm before the big rush later in the morning? Not sure?


----------



## Clive101 (Sep 3, 2017)

@GryphonGuy
Yes correct a block of mains outlets.
The expensive mains cable is connected between the electric mains and the block of outlets whicn in turn feeds the hifi system with standard cables.
 It is very effective of using one expensive cable for the whole system IMO.


----------



## jlbrach

i had the same experience at Canjam....the amps were not up to driving HP's given the noise,even when it was relatively quiet...i only listen to FLAC recordings for the most part so I defer to the discussion about DSD recordings


----------



## bigfatpaulie

MacedonianHero said:


> You certainly did.   That's the range I was in last night.
> 
> I still need to throw some of my more demanding DSD recordings at it and A-B with it alone and coupled with my GS-X Mk2. I'm not sure why this combo at RMAF was so darn quiet? I realize that it was a meet setting, but I got in there early with my Press Pass (for Headphone.Guru) and it was fairly calm before the big rush later in the morning? Not sure?




In my experience shows are a disaster for things being set up.  Bad power.  Bad rooms.  Ambient noise.  Bad DSP.  Not educated exhibitors.  Often things just are set up incorrectly.  For all we know the person working the booth had the Windows volume control set to low - which would speak volumes as to why you weren't taken with at first listen.  (I crack myself up)


----------



## MacedonianHero

bigfatpaulie said:


> In my experience shows are a disaster for things being set up.  Bad power.  Bad rooms.  Ambient noise.  Bad DSP.  Not educated exhibitors.  Often things just are set up incorrectly.  For all we know the person working the booth had the Windows volume control set to low - which would speak volumes as to why you weren't taken with at first listen.  (I crack myself up)



Normally I agree.The exhibitors where great guys I've dealt with at Chord in the past and the room was fairly quiet when we got in there as there were only a handful of us before the big crush hit. But you're right....could be that the Windows volume control was turned down or something else was at play? But last night the DAVE was driving the LCD-4s very well!


----------



## MacedonianHero

Finally getting around to listening to the DAVE with my SR-009/LL2 setup and as much as a microscope this setup was into the recording, wow...things have improved that much more! The DAVE is like the Hubble telescope into a recording pulling out every detail that you can focus on...I can't count how many times I've had to stop reading/typing tonight and just be amazing with what I'm hearing!


----------



## GryphonGuy

MacedonianHero said:


> Finally getting around to listening to the DAVE with my SR-009/LL2 setup and as much as a microscope this setup was into the recording, wow...things have improved that much more! The DAVE is like the Hubble telescope into a recording pulling out every detail that you can focus on...I can't count how many times I've had to stop reading/typing tonight and just be amazing with what I'm hearing!



Hehe! Yes. That is what my DAVE does to me every time I play a track I haven't heard for a while. Glad you are being amazed like most DAVE owners are. It never ends!

Regards
GG


----------



## MacedonianHero

GryphonGuy said:


> Hehe! Yes. That is what my DAVE does to me every time I play a track I haven't heard for a while. Glad you are being amazed like most DAVE owners are. It never ends!
> 
> Regards
> GG



It really is quite impressive rediscovering my favourite tracks...right now I'm listening to Rush's "Moving Pictures" and I am smiling from ear to ear!


----------



## x RELIC x

MacedonianHero said:


> Finally getting around to listening to the DAVE with my SR-009/LL2 setup and as much as a microscope this setup was into the recording, wow...things have improved that much more! The DAVE is like the Hubble telescope into a recording pulling out every detail that you can focus on...I can't count how many times I've had to stop reading/typing tonight and just be amazing with what I'm hearing!



I literally can't focus on work while I listen to the DAVE...


----------



## Christer

x RELIC x said:


> I literally can't focus on work while I listen to the DAVE...


IMHO the only time work and listening to music belong together is if you are a performing musician!


----------



## x RELIC x

Christer said:


> IMHO the only time work and listening to music belong together is if you are a performing musician!



Lol! Well, I'm an artist who works from home so listening to music helps pass the time... until I realize I've done nothing but listen to music!


----------



## Christer

x RELIC x said:


> Lol! Well, I'm an artist who works from home so listening to music helps pass the time... until I realize I've done nothing but listen to music!



I am in a similar situation as photographer and have stopped editing photos i PS and listening to music at the same time.
Multi-tasking is never  a good idea!
Cheers Christer


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Sep 5, 2017)

Relic
That's exactly the same as I experienced with Dave. I would start work in my study with music coming from the hifi room as I have always done but I just kept stopping and going to my hifi room to catch the performance. I am a semi-retired equities investor and since Blu II turned up about 6 weeks ago I have been lucky to average 1hr per week doing research! This is probably costing me a fortune but boy is it rewarding to the soul.


----------



## rkt31

purer the copper better are the results for any audiophile cable applications. purity of copper is expressed in N scale. higher the N number purer the copper. 4N is very good 7N is the best available in market. but only few manufacturers have it. imho purity of copper is more important than even the thickness ( specially for low power demanding applications ) and shielding .


----------



## rkt31

the copper better are the results for any audiophile cable applications. purity of copper is expressed in N scale. higher the N number purer the copper. 4N is very good 7N is the best available in market. but only few manufacturers have it. imho purity of copper is more important than even the thickness ( specially for low power demanding applications ) and shielding


----------



## Triode User

rkt31 said:


> purer the copper better are the results for any audiophile cable applications. purity of copper is expressed in N scale. higher the N number purer the copper. 4N is very good 7N is the best available in market. but only few manufacturers have it. imho purity of copper is more important than even the thickness ( specially for low power demanding applications ) and shielding .



Well the purity and levels and OFC levels marginally affect the resistance. In that sense it matters but in reality does it really? I say not just in the same way that silver is only 5% or 7% better conductor than copper.

I have just made some 5m speaker cables for a friend out of 16mm2 car battery cable. Goodness knows what copper they use but certainly nothing expensive as it is only a couple of £ per m. They out perform his exotic cables costing many many thousands of pounds.

But anyway, this is not a cable thread so I guess we will just have to agree to differ rather than get chucked out of here for taking the thread off subject.


----------



## rkt31

chord Hugo playing aaj ibadat a hindi song through benchmark ahb2. pls listen through headphones for best effect . audio and video recorded seperately.


----------



## Tom Blake

Looks like I will have my DAVE within 2 weeks. I ordered black but silver is shipping now so I made the switch. I liked them both about the same.  Can't wait!

I would love to hear some more real world experience of running high efficiency speakers direct from the DAVE. My current listening is about 50:50 headphones (Focal Utopia) vs speakers. My current speaker rig is KEF LS50/Wyred 4 Sound mAMP monoblocks/REL T/7i sub. This is a desktop setup with the LS50's in a nearfield arrangement. I am quite happy with the LS50's but if they can be improved (and simplified) for similar money that I could net from selling my current speaker rig I am definitely interested. Would love to discuss the following questions:

1. What speaker brands and models have been successfully used direct from the DAVE that are suitable for a desktop setting?
2. How are they wired? It looks like a BNC adapter to speaker binding posts adapter is needed. i see cheap ones available on Amazon. Does anyone have a source for higher quality adapters?
3. I also have a Decware Taboo Mk. III that can deliver about 2 wpc into 8 ohms from its speaker taps. I could use that also to power high efficiency speakers but I imagine better results are achieved going direct from the DAVE. Keeping the Decware in my system would also provide the advantage of continuing to have access to a high quality tube headphone amp as a counterpoint to the DAVE headphone amp.

Any other experience or tips on running speakers directly from the DAVE would be appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## dmance

Tom Blake said:


> Looks like I will have my DAVE within 2 weeks. I ordered black butsilver is shipping now so I made the switch. I liked them both about the same.  Can't wait!
> 
> I would love to hear some more real world experience of running high efficiency speakers direct from the DAVE.
> ...
> Any other experience or tips on running speakers directly from the DAVE would be appreciated. Thanks!


My Hugo2 can drive my 99dB Voxativ DIY speakers just fine.  Full transparency ...although l tell you that after 15minutes you will notice a thinness in the lows and overall weakness.  Im sure Dave alone will sound great ...but you will want a external amp to gain the benefit of more power and a PSU that can drive current.  Or wait until CES when the Chord Boys may announce their digital amp.


----------



## dguitarnut

Tom Blake said:


> Looks like I will have my DAVE within 2 weeks. I ordered black but silver is shipping now so I made the switch. I liked them both about the same.  Can't wait!
> 
> I would love to hear some more real world experience of running high efficiency speakers direct from the DAVE. My current listening is about 50:50 headphones (Focal Utopia) vs speakers. My current speaker rig is KEF LS50/Wyred 4 Sound mAMP monoblocks/REL T/7i sub. This is a desktop setup with the LS50's in a nearfield arrangement. I am quite happy with the LS50's but if they can be improved (and simplified) for similar money that I could net from selling my current speaker rig I am definitely interested. Would love to discuss the following questions:
> 
> ...



I prefer silver all the way! Matches my Pass Labs Int-60 amp and LUMIN U-1 streamer.  Sounds superb thru my Magico S1MK2 speakers.
Larry


----------



## Jawed

If the power pulse array (digital amp) is likely to be released within a year and you want to drive high-efficiency speakers, then honestly you should seriously consider Blu 2 + digital amp instead of DAVE + digital amp. Both combinations will end up costing about the same as each other and the former will sound way better and will drive headphones.

Of course, you will likely get a good deal trading a DAVE for a Blu 2 when you buy the digital amp. So money lost on owning DAVE short-term shouldn't be hideous.

Operative word: If

Normal speakers might require two of the digital amp as it was originally described as about 20W per channel stereo (or 70W mono). It's been so long since Rob said much about it, that it's fair to assume plans are quite different now from the outline ideas given before.

Now playing: Sketch Show - Chronograph


----------



## ray-dude

Jawed said:


> If the power pulse array (digital amp) is likely to be released within a year and you want to drive high-efficiency speakers, then honestly you should seriously consider Blu 2 + digital amp instead of DAVE + digital amp. Both combinations will end up costing about the same as each other and the former will sound way better and will drive headphones.
> 
> Of course, you will likely get a good deal trading a DAVE for a Blu 2 when you buy the digital amp. So money lost on owning DAVE short-term shouldn't be hideous.
> 
> ...



I still am confused about the preferred topology with the digital amps.  DAVE is effectively the pre amp in the stack.  Doesn't make sense to push the preamp portion of the stack or the mScaler portion to the digital amp, since it would be replicated in any sort of multi-amp scenario.  If you have the Blu2/Davina upstream for the mScaler and the digital amp downstream for the final D to A stage and amp stage, then DAVE is relegated to being a preamp/input selector and offering a taps boost to the pipeline (and support for all the inputs it already supports)

My best guess is that the full stack will be a combination of Blu2/Davina + DAVE + Digital Amp(s), at least until a Blu3/Davina2 comes along that collapses the DAVE into one box.


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## Jozurr

Does everyone keep their Dave on all the time? What output is better, se or balanced?


----------



## dguitarnut

I use balanced cause my balanced cables are better than my SE cables and actually sound better.
My Iggy i left on all the time but since I got the Dave I turn off my whole system because I can and want to lol


----------



## Mediahound (Sep 14, 2017)

Jozurr said:


> Does everyone keep their Dave on all the time? What output is better, se or balanced?





dguitarnut said:


> I use balanced cause my balanced cables are better than my SE cables and actually sound better.
> My Iggy i left on all the time but since I got the Dave I turn off my whole system because I can and want to lol




The DAVE is a single-ended DAC so that should technically sound a bit better because you're closer to the DAC and the output stage is not having to go through additional circuitry converting to balanced output.

If however you're connecting to a balanced amp, you should probably used balanced since most balanced amps that also have single-ended sound better running balanced in mode.


----------



## SuperDuke

Jozurr said:


> Does everyone keep their Dave on all the time? What output is better, se or balanced?


I don't keep DAVE on all the time just b/c of occasional PM thunderstorms.  I used Balanced outputs with the Eddie Current BA - the 6V output was nice when driving hard to drive HPs -more headroom.  I am using the SE output w/ the Ayon HA3 45 based amp and it sounds excellent.


----------



## paulchiu

Jozurr said:


> Does everyone keep their Dave on all the time? What output is better, se or balanced?



On 24/7
Use Chord remote to turn on
Use SE


----------



## jlbrach

mine is on standby all the time as is my blu 2


----------



## Mediahound

FWIW- Rob Watts has stated the Chord DACs are impervious to jitter caused in other DACs by not being warmed up. I see no reason to leave it on all the time other than for convenience. I'll usually turn mine off unless I know I will use it again within 12 hours.


----------



## Jawed

ray-dude said:


> I still am confused about the preferred topology with the digital amps.  DAVE is effectively the pre amp in the stack.  Doesn't make sense to push the preamp portion of the stack or the mScaler portion to the digital amp, since it would be replicated in any sort of multi-amp scenario.  If you have the Blu2/Davina upstream for the mScaler and the digital amp downstream for the final D to A stage and amp stage, then DAVE is relegated to being a preamp/input selector and offering a taps boost to the pipeline (and support for all the inputs it already supports)
> 
> My best guess is that the full stack will be a combination of Blu2/Davina + DAVE + Digital Amp(s), at least until a Blu3/Davina2 comes along that collapses the DAVE into one box.


The original description of the power pulse array was that it would take 16FS inputs (705,600Hz or 768,000Hz) and have a headphone output.

With Blu2 (or Davina) you get 16FS outputs that are directly compatible with the power pulse array. DAVE can't "add taps".

Volume control is undoubtedly a question mark if there's a pair of power pulse arrays in mono mode. Before Blu2 came along, DAVE would have controlled volume. DAVE does have two pairs of BNC outpus that were originally planned to drive a pair of mono amps.

With Blu2 feeding DAVE and then feeding the amp, all DAVE can do is control the volume. With two amps, simultaneous control of volume should be a simple communication problem, e.g. one amp gets the dual-BNC input from Blu2, then outputs a dual-BNC signal to the other amp.

Now playing: Arne Domnérus and Gustaf Sjökvist - Almighty God


----------



## ray-dude

Forgive the short hand.  I was alluding to the 2nd stage WTA filter: 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-204#post-12596126

Agreed that there are very few DSP cores post 16FS stage, which could all end up in the digital amp.

In noodling some more, another scenario is that the the digital amp is packaged as the DAVE2, an all in one devices (multi inputs, volume control, display panel, etc) with 20/70W output, with a separate digital amp that is a slave device to the original DAVE (single device for stereo or 2 for bridged mode) or slave to DAVE2 for people running in bridge mode.   

I am signed up for the Huge2 demo tour.  I'm looking forward to doing some critical evaluation of the BluDave vs BluHugo2 vs LonelyDave vs LonelyHugo2.  Based on that, I'll sort out what I should do with my DAVE: swap it out for an H2 now then retire the H2 to my work office (headphones only) when the digital amp ships, or hold onto the DAVE, and retire it to my work office when the time comes.  Either way, seriously first world problems to be working through


----------



## Triode User

ray-dude said:


> Forgive the short hand.  I was alluding to the 2nd stage WTA filter:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-204#post-12596126
> 
> ...



In your wish list you forget that there are those of us who prefer monobloc amps so that we can get the amps as close as possible to the speakers. 

It will be interesting to see what you think of bluhugo compared to bludave. I am guessing the difference will be similar to the difference between dave and hugo2, in other words quite a lot.


----------



## ray-dude

I have relatively demanding speakers (B&W 802d3's) so I'll definitely be running monoblocks, at least until the Goliath version of the digital amp is ready (I have no idea how Rob's amp topology scales with power, or how easy/hard/practical a 300W variant will be).

Thankfully, I know a guy that will have *really* early access to the digital amp, and he has B&W 803d3's (basically same load on the amps), so I'm eager to get his reports on how they do with the digital amp running in bridged 70W mode  

My current hypothesis, based on nothing except the DAVE block diagram and Rob's explanation of the similarity of the output stage of the Hugo2 to the DAVE, is that BluDave and BluHugo2 will be very close.  Damn excited to have all the kit in the same room with the same music with the same speakers and headphones with me sipping the same bourbon.  For those around San Diego, drop a line and we'll arrange a listening party (date TBD...patiently waiting for the loaner Hugo2 and my Blu2)


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## miketlse (Sep 6, 2020)

ray-dude said:


> Forgive the short hand.  I was alluding to the 2nd stage WTA filter:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-204#post-12596126
> 
> ...


I have not had the opportunity to hear the DAVE.
For me I now reserve the Hugo 2 for home use, and the Mojo for use in the office at work.
Maybe sometime in the future, I will change to Hugo TT2 for home use, and Hugo 2 at work, but that may be one or two years down the line for Chord.


----------



## ray-dude

I have a Mojo at the office, but the DAVE has completely spoiled me for headphones.  I am very hopeful that the Hugo2 gives that DAVE "holy crap!" experience, but I'm not sure I can afford that kind of distraction at work (it is almost impossible for me to work at home when I have the DAVE cranking...absolutely intoxicating)


----------



## zimzim2001 (Sep 16, 2017)

I joined the Dave club last month.  What can I say that hasn't already been said, it's met or exceeded my expectations in every way, spectacular.  It bested the MSB Analog I had auditioned previously by a good margin to my ears.  At first I was anxious to pick up another headphone, maybe Utopia, Abyss or LCD-4, but then I decided to upgrade from my Vega instead and I"m really happy I went that route.  My HD800 are now even more magnificent using Audirvana Plus with Sonarworks into an Aries then to Dave headphone out.

I see different opinions on whether Dave benefits from a good power cable.  My suspicion is that it will, but I haven't tried any yet.  My budget is up to $3K, I"m considering High Fidelity CT-1, or Shunyata Sigma NR or Alpha NR.  Any thoughts on these cables or any others?  I'm open to other suggestions.  I'm using Shunyata Venom 3 at the moment.  Thanks.


----------



## Triode User

zimzim2001 said:


> I joined the Dave club last month.  What can I say that hasn't already been said, it's met or exceeded my expectations in every way, spectacular.  It bested the MSB Analog I had auditioned previously by a good margin to my ears.  At first I was anxious to pick up another headphone, maybe Utopia, Abyss or LCD-4, but then I decided to upgrade from my Vega instead and I"m really happy I went that route.  My HD800 are now even more magnificent using Audirvana Plus with Sonarworks into an Aries then to Dave headphone out.
> 
> I see different opinions on whether Dave benefits from a good power cable.  My suspicion is that it will, but I haven't tried any yet.  My budget is up to $3K, I"m considering High Fidelity CT-1, or Shunyata Sigma NR or Alpha NR.  Any thoughts on these cables or any others?  I'm open to other suggestions.  I'm using Shunyata Venom 3 at the moment.  Thanks.



Save your money. 

$3k on a power cable for the Dave when I am pretty sure that Rob has said that the power stage for the Dave is well filtered? And after all, exotic power cables can only act as filters. They are not somehow doing anything to the amount of power available.

Think about it. Buy three  power cables at that price or buy a Blu2 for the same amount. So I say keep the money in your pocket and put it towards a Blu2.

The Blu2 thread has been quite active with how 5 split core ferrites (as tried and recommended by Rob Watts) at less than $5 each do just about or even the same job as exotic BNC cables at many thousands of dollars for getting rid of RF and EMF. If you want to play then maybe try some ferrites to filter the mains.

Others will advise differently and after all it is your money so do whatever makes you happy.


----------



## hieukm

i would say go for Blu2. It would bring real music to you. Blu2 upgrade was like upgrading to Dave from your PC sound card.


----------



## dmance

I just posted a review of Hugo2 as a Desktop DAC replacement.  Some interesting comments regarding comparisons with DAVE and my tests running Hugo2 direct-to-loudspeakers.  Enjoy.
https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-hugo-2.22209/reviews#review-19198


----------



## TheAttorney

DAVE Windows driver question: 

I'm currently on V1.05 driver and I think (but can't remeber for sure) that is the original DAVE driver for any Windows.
My laptop is runnig Windows 10 Creators edition, which seems to work fine with that driver. 

I now see on the Chord website that there are 3 Windows driver options for DAVE: W7, W10, W10 Creators edition
Are there any advantages to upgrading my driver to W10 Creator? Or is that only necessary if V1.05 is havng problems?


----------



## GryphonGuy

TheAttorney said:


> DAVE Windows driver question:
> 
> I'm currently on V1.05 driver and I think (but can't remeber for sure) that is the original DAVE driver for any Windows.
> My laptop is runnig Windows 10 Creators edition, which seems to work fine with that driver.
> ...



Yes its simple. If you want Dave to work as intended with Windows 10 Creators edition, use the creators edition driver. Creators edition is picky about drivers.

Regards
GG


----------



## rgs9200m

1.Does the Chord DAVE handle DSD natively?
2. Regardless, how does it sound with DSD vs. other native-DSD processors that you may have heard?
3. Stereophile divides DACS into those that handle DSD natively and those that just handle PCM. The DAVE is listed in the native-DSD category. Is this true?
 (The Hugo TT is not listed as DSD-native. I have the TT and while it is great overall and I love it, only my EMM SACD player has the DSD magic I crave.)
4. Since I plan to embark on an effort to convert my SACD discs to DSD files, is the DAVE appropriate to get SACD-quality sound (which is awesome to my ears)?
5. Would I need to get a second DSD-native DAC in addition to a DAVE (a painful last resort I really want to avoid)?
Thank you.


----------



## paulchiu (Sep 20, 2017)

https://www.head-fi.org/members/rgs9200m.39040/

1. Yes
2. This is subjective but I listen to the DAVE more than I listen to my Nagra HD DAC
3. True
4. No sure
5. Nagra HD DAC is the best for classical and jazz, in my opinion.


----------



## dmance

I don't have a DAVE but I spent two weeks with a Hugo2.  DSD sounds fantastic on Hugo2 too ...but as Rob Watts says ...DSD does not have the 3D depth that PCM has.  It was quite obvious to me  - both are crystal clear and equally enjoyable but for whatever reason, the recording venue ambiance is not captured as well with DSD.  For people who joined me in a listening session, this additional 3D resolution, though incredible, sounded too 'hollow' - basically the walls of my room went away the eerie sense of 'you are there' was unwelcome as it is such a departure from their ordinary experience with music.  But if you are spending this kind of money on a DAC you want it all ...


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## ray-dude (Sep 20, 2017)

DAVE has a native DSD mode and a native PCM mode.  Each mode can play the other format, but is optimized for one path or the other.  Switching between them is a menu option, and takes a couple seconds for the processor to reboot with the new pipeline. 

As a practical matter, I leave mine in native PCM mode almost all the time, even though I have a significant collection of SACDs and native DSD content, mainly for convenience (the delta isn't material enough to switch things up, at least for me).  If I'm in hypercritical listening mode, I will switch to whatever is the mode that suits the album I'm listening to, but that is rare.

In general, I've found the PCM vs DSD debate to be more a question of synergy between the content and the DAC, vs an absolutist position.  When I had my Oppo HA-1, I thought DSD was fantastic and far superior to PCM playback.  With the DAVE, both DSD and PCM blow away the Oppo, but I give a slight edge to PCM.  In general, I've found delta sigma amps seem to align better to DSD (when they have a native DSD pipe), while multi-bit align better to PCM, and the Chord DACs superior to both delta sigma and multi-bit dacs, with a very slight edge to PCM playback for the reasons @dmance cited above.

That being said, I've not had an opportunity to audition a delta-sigma DAC that is in the same class as the DAVE, so I can't speak to tradeoffs once you get to those rarified heights.  I will say that with the DAVE, I get that same SACD viceral thrill even with 16 bit lossless redbook content (and I'm looking forward to getting my Blu2, to take that to even the next level)


----------



## tkcha (Sep 20, 2017)

For Dave owner or lover one real problem is DSD sound inferier to PCM sound because simply Rob is non DSD beliver so result prove that, I compare Bricasti M1se, Holo Spring 3 KTE side by side using Antipode Server, Zesto Audio Tube Pre,Power Amp drive Martin Logan Renaissance ESL 15A. All three DACs sound fantastic in this level,  differences are small but PCM sound Dave was better than both Holo, Bricasti But on DSD Holo comes out little better than Dave either Bricasti .  So now Holo DSD VS Dave PCM .  Very very close but as usual Dynamic and 3D effects go for Dave but Roundness and sound stage width for Holo little better.  For Bricasti M1SE . It is All rounder good with PCM or either DSD if I choose between 2 dac I like Dave better But I AM still disappointed from DSD sounds from Dave . If I upgrade my DAC later Dave or Bricasti not my lists. . Maybe GG from Lampizator or MSB stack,Total TOL DAC or not change Digital at all go for Hi-end TT analoge set up.


----------



## tkcha

I have 5 pair Speakers and 2 Headphones with I7 based custom made PC, Aurender N100h, Intona industrial, Allnic T-2000 25TH Anniversary Tube Intergrated amplifier. All my PC are Audio Sensibility Statement occ coper, IC SC from Allnic Audio TOL cables. Speakers I have KEF LS50, Blade 2, HIM Sound A33, Impress, 10 year old DIY speaker with Moreal tweeter, Focal 5 inch Midrange, 2 Focal 8 inch Wooper, HMDF Cabinet with Mundorf caps, high Q internal wires rear ported design.  My headphons are Audio sensibility Modded HE6 with OCC coper cable, Focal Utopia Audio Sensibility Statement OCC silver cale to WOO Audio WA6 SE with Westinghouse 6FD7 fat bottle, Marconi U52 Rectifiers with A S Stetement occ coper cable PC, IC.  LAST Power Conditioner is Blue Circle Audio, Rack I use Solid Tech 4 shelf with some mid level no name rack for headphone amp. I am very happy right now but never ending try  New FOM also New Turntable is tempting but always the moolah is matter.


----------



## rgs9200m (Sep 21, 2017)

Thanks everyone for the perspectives on my DSD questions.

I especially appreciate (and find very useful) the opinions from those who are aficionados of SACD/DSD like I am.
I guess that, even if I get the DAVE, I will still hold on to my EMM xds1 and my discs.

I do note that the Oppo (my 105D) is just fair sounding on PCM or SACD and is really just good for DVDs and video.

EMM and Playback Designs to me are extraordinary with SACD in terms of texture, overall realism,  and unbelievable transparency in areas like bass and lower midrange. My ears tell me that SACD is still the ultimate in sound when done right.
And the lack of fatigue in highs and upper mids and vocals is something puts SACD/DSD in another league from PCM (while it still preserves all the insight). There is always just more there there with SACD, even lesser quality SACDs.

17 years of listening to SACD has given me this impression. I feel SACD beats analog/vinyl by a mile. (Just my opinion; I respect the opinion of others completely, and I have great respect for vinyl.)

Of course, SACD has only about 35% of the music I like, so I still need to concentrate on PCM.
For the record, I mainly use headphones for listening.
My 2 cents. Thanks.


----------



## tkcha

I totaly agree with you EMM and Playback Designs for DSD or SACD sound for me better than Dave if you like DSD,sacd also look at Esoteric K-1X. Very good sounding player DAC.


----------



## rgs9200m

Thanks tkcha. Yep, Esoteric is really nice on SACD (and PCM) from my listening in shows.


----------



## tkcha

Hi Rgs9200m  You know what  I heard your Lahave Mela speaker  and SHL5+ with Air Tight gear, I like Mela so much almost buy pair  how is Mela in these days and what pre, power amp drive your speaker system?


----------



## rgs9200m

Wow, you have heard of the Mela. Amazing. (Sorry to go off track for the thread, but just for a second here...) Melas are currently combined into my main headphone system.
Preamp= Apex Pinnacle headphone amp/preamp.
Amp = Luxman L507U used in power amp mode.
CDP/DAC = EMM XDS1v2.
Power conditioner = Shunyata Triton.
Cables = Shunyata and Stealth Indra.


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## tkcha

I heard even their floorstander with Ayon Audio Triton amp very good speaker for sure.


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## tkcha

So Apex doing good preamp job ? Did you ever try dedicate preamp ? if so would give little bit of impression.  Please


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## marcmccalmont

While I wait for a replacement BLU2 I'm sorting out DAVE
At first it didn't sound smooth and sweet in my system driving Spectral amplifiers (very wide  bandwidth and susceptible to RF)
Once I placed ferrite filters on the balanced output cables things smoothed out and got a lot better, I've also got ferrite's on the coax input cables
I guess Dave passes ultrasonics/rf on to the power amps?
If you have wide bandwidth amps and or have got better sound with a preamp in between give the ferrite's a try a world of difference in my system
I'm also happy with my upgrade to the latest Pangea AC14SE mkII power cords reasonably priced
Marc


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## adyc

What cable do you use? Spectral recommends to use MIT cable as these cables filter out all ultrasonics. I don’t think it is DAVE fault.


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## marcmccalmont

Custom cables that have worked flawlessly between several Spectral Preamps and Power amps and extremely well shielded
And Kimber 8tc speaker cables that have the correct bandwidth to keep the amps stable 
Marc


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## rgs9200m (Sep 22, 2017)

The Apex Pinnacle is an astounding preamp. Be aware that the standard volume control is stepped though. I like the Apex as a preamp better than the Levinson No. 38 I once had and sold.
The Apex was actually built with the preamp capability as a high priority, and it shows.
It's really amazing.


----------



## Tom Blake

The eagle has landed. It is going to be a VERY good weekend


----------



## GryphonGuy

Congratulations on your DAVE. Hopefully you'll love it.

But PLEASE un-coil that headphone cable (looks identical to the standard utopia cable). Cable coils change electrical properties of transmission. I think increases inductance?

Regards
GG


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## Tom Blake

@ GG - done  I am waiting on a shorter replacement cable for the Utopia and was coiling it in the interim to manage the weight.


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## bigfatpaulie

Silver DAVE, black stand?  That's unusual.  Is it playing into a larger aesthetic with your system?


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## MacedonianHero

bigfatpaulie said:


> Silver DAVE, black stand?  That's unusual.  Is it playing into a larger aesthetic with your system?



^ Thanks Paul...I was thinking the same thing? If he gets a silver one, I'll happily take the black stand for my black DAVE.


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## Tom Blake

Got a great deal on the stand from my dealer. It is black/polished nickel so really goes with either finish. Black DAVE was my first choice for more of a stealth look. However, silver is what Chord is shipping now and I didn't want to wait. However, after getting the DAVE installed in my system it really works best without the stand for my setup. If anyone is interested in the stand PM me and I will let it go for what I paid for it. That's a big chunk of the cost of a Blu Mk. II


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## ubs28

Is there a nice traveling case that also protects the Chord Dave. The case shouldn’t not be big as I want to travel with it.


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## Clive101

ubs28 said:


> Is there a nice traveling case that also protects the Chord Dave. The case shouldn’t not be big as I want to travel with it.



Try https://peliproducts.co.uk/cases/im2600-storm-case.html

I will post a photo later today of my case with Dave.


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## Kamil21

Clive101 said:


> Try https://peliproducts.co.uk/cases/im2600-storm-case.html
> 
> I will post a photo later today of my case with Dave.



Interesting.. Will there be enough room to add a Blu2 in the same Peli case as Dave?


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## Clive101

Kamil21 said:


> Interesting.. Will there be enough room to add a Blu2 in the same Peli case as Dave?





ubs28 said:


> Is there a nice traveling case that also protects the Chord Dave. The case shouldn’t not be big as I want to travel with it.



Please find some photographs that may help you decide.
The case can be carried on all airlines as carry on for size (please check with the airline the size and weight before making a purchase) so some what limited on internal size.
There is enough room but the edges or the equipment are quite close to the case edge so you may need to add some felt near the plastic side walls.
The foam has memory so retains its original shape which helps to keep Dave nice and secure if you need to compress the foam or stretch for a firm fit. 
You can purchase replacement foam inserts should you wish to use with other products.
I have shown some examples how and space of Dave plus a second Dave to represent a Blu Mk2 but still waiting for the stand alone M-Scaler  ( sorry could not resist the reference to M-Scaler some may find that amusing! )  
Hope that helps.


 

 

 


https://peliproducts.co.uk/cases/im2600-storm-case.html


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## MacedonianHero

I'm happy to report that High Sierra + Chord DAVE (using Audirvana and the Tidal App) are A-Ok!


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## jlbrach

yes i too loaded the new high sierra and seem to be having no issues with the same combo


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## TheAttorney (Sep 27, 2017)

DAVE (and HEK) followers may find my Downsizing post in the Stax thread interesting. Here


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## ubs28

Clive101 said:


> Please find some photographs that may help you decide.
> The case can be carried on all airlines as carry on for size (please check with the airline the size and weight before making a purchase) so some what limited on internal size.
> There is enough room but the edges or the equipment are quite close to the case edge so you may need to add some felt near the plastic side walls.
> The foam has memory so retains its original shape which helps to keep Dave nice and secure if you need to compress the foam or stretch for a firm fit.
> ...



Many thanks. This looks pretty cool.


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## crrrddddeeeee

Hi guys, I have been thinking of getting a Schiit Eitr and I'm curious to know if the Eitr would even benefit the Chord DAVE? I'd certainly be interested in getting the Eitr if it can.
The main problem I see with it might be the USB input on the DAVE is it's best input, so would using a RCA-to-BNC cable do more harm than good seeing that the DAVE doesn't have an coax (RCA) input? I'd of course need to use the RCA-to-BNC cable instead. I've never seen a high quality RCA-to-BNC cable so if need be, I could just make my own later on if it would make a difference.
Thanks for any help!


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## Triode User

crrrddddeeeee said:


> Hi guys, I have been thinking of getting a Schiit Eitr and I'm curious to know if the Eitr would even benefit the Chord DAVE? I'd certainly be interested in getting the Eitr if it can.
> The main problem I see with it might be the USB input on the DAVE is it's best input, so would using a RCA-to-BNC cable do more harm than good seeing that the DAVE doesn't have an coax (RCA) input? I'd of course need to use the RCA-to-BNC cable instead. I've never seen a high quality RCA-to-BNC cable so if need be, I could just make my own later on if it would make a difference.
> Thanks for any help!



This device is intended (I think) for devices that don't have a USB input. My first thought is that it is a pointless exercise to put it in the chain connected to a Dave. Why not just plug the USB output straight into the Dave?

Although I fully admit that I have never fully understood the obsession with plugging random extra boxes in the digital feed.


----------



## Jawed

crrrddddeeeee said:


> The main problem I see with it might be the USB input on the DAVE is it's best input


I honestly think that this is likely not to be true, unless you have a "perfect" USB source and "perfect" USB cable configuration. RFI is a severe problem as DAVE shows a fair amount of susceptibility to the quality of USB configuration.

Connection via electrical S/PDIF (BNC input) is even worse it seems. The Blu 2 thread has a discussion regarding using ferrite cores attached to BNC cables between Blu 2 and DAVE:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...-official-thread.831343/page-98#post-13706538

Optical may actually be the easiest way to get the best out of DAVE. But it prevents you from using high sampling rates over 192KHz and I'm not sure which DSD rates work. I haven't tried optical in my system, so I don't know how it compares to my USB connection (with lots of passive RFI filtering using a Jitterbug and a jumble of 9, so far, ferrite cores).

So, sure, yes, USB on DAVE works well, but there's a lot of performance lost in a basic USB setup if your USB music source is problematic. How good is your USB music source and connection? I don't think anyone knows, because it seems every 6 months there's a new way to make USB sound better and this applies to DAVE, even if DAVE doesn't suffer as much as some other DACs.

Now playing: Natalie Merchant - Saint Judas


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## ubs28

Jawed said:


> I honestly think that this is likely not to be true, unless you have a "perfect" USB source and "perfect" USB cable configuration. RFI is a severe problem as DAVE shows a fair amount of susceptibility to the quality of USB configuration.
> 
> Connection via electrical S/PDIF (BNC input) is even worse it seems. The Blu 2 thread has a discussion regarding using ferrite cores attached to BNC cables between Blu 2 and DAVE:
> 
> ...



Would this problem be solved if you would use an iOS device like an iPad Pro instead of a laptop or a desktop?


----------



## paulchiu

Who also use Roon with DAVE here?


----------



## ray-dude

I have Roon and DAVE in my home setup

Roon Core on Mac Mini and Macbook Pro laptop (I switch authorization back and forth)
TIDAL and my own lossless redbook rips, high res files (Flac and DSD)
Ethernet to Roon Bridge on a Microorbiter SE
USB to DAVE
DAVE to Classe 2300 to B&W 802d3

Hope to soon add Blu2 to the mix (waiting waiting waiting waiting)

Anything specific you wanted to know about Roon + DAVE?


----------



## paulchiu

Is there a way to use an iPad pro as Roon Controller and speaker while using DAVE as DAC?



ray-dude said:


> I have Roon and DAVE in my home setup
> 
> Anything specific you wanted to know about Roon + DAVE?


----------



## Tom Blake

I use Roon with my BluDAVE. I connect to the Blu2 via USB from an ultraRendu & LPS-1 which is in turn connected via ethernet to a dedicated Roon Core server. Works beautifully and sounds nearly as good as CDs played directly on the Blu2.


----------



## Mediahound

paulchiu said:


> Is there a way to use an iPad pro as Roon Controller and speaker while using DAVE as DAC?



Yes, there is a Roon iOS remote app that works very well. It connects to your Roon player such as a server or computer. Note, the app does not play off the iOS device, it just controls the Roon application running on your computer or server.


----------



## Jawed

ubs28 said:


> Would this problem be solved if you would use an iOS device like an iPad Pro instead of a laptop or a desktop?


I doubt it would be solved. RFI doesn't just magically disappear because the device is battery powered. The device is just a computer after all. Newer computers (PCs or iOS) seem to be better in terms of RFI pollution, judging loosely based on who complains the most...

An iPad Pro might be better than any other USB setup that you own. But it's unlikely to be optimal.

I'm not asserting that optical is optimal, I'm merely suggesting that it solves the RFI problem (and the ground loop problem for people who feed DAVE's output into an amplifier) and whatever demerits it has (inability to support re-transmission for error correction, what else?) it is likely to be much closer to optimal for DAVE than USB.

It's really really hard to get DAVE's USB input to work well. Right now, while I'm in the middle of my experiments with ferrite cores on my USB cable (16 = 2 already on the cable + 14 added) I would say that using my Hugo TT as a baseline, DAVE as an upgrade with nothing but the USB cable that comes in the box is about 2/3 of what DAVE is actually capable of. That assumes that I'm close to getting the most out of my PC-USB-DAVE system - which seems unlikely  USB is, I'm now discovering, a miserable ball-and-chain for streaming music systems. And that's mostly because it's an electrical connection.

My PC might be the worst possible USB source amongst the hundreds of DAVE owners out there, so I might be painting the most pessimistic picture. But the hi-fi internet is full of people discovering a new trick to make USB streamed music sound better on a practically daily basis.

It's ironic: my high-end CD player from the mid 1990s uses an AT&T glass optical interface to transmit digital audio from the CD transport to the DAC. A 50MHz capable connection. Modern DACs don't have this capability. If we weren't stuck on TOSLink for optical connections then this interface on PCs would solve the bandwidth constraints that make TOSLink impractical for all the music formats... Back then it was a costly interface, so it was doomed I suppose.

My CD player: Audio Synthesis Transcend transport + DAX-2 DAC reformatted S/PDIF into a proprietary format to reduce music-correlated noise (see N-Code section):

http://www.audiosynthesis.co.uk/transcend.htm

(That transport is a later version of the Transcend I own.)

Now playing: Nirvana - Polly


----------



## MacedonianHero

Jawed said:


> I doubt it would be solved. RFI doesn't just magically disappear because the device is battery powered. The device is just a computer after all. Newer computers (PCs or iOS) seem to be better in terms of RFI pollution, judging loosely based on who complains the most...
> 
> An iPad Pro might be better than any other USB setup that you own. But it's unlikely to be optimal.
> 
> ...



I'm running an iMac and using the Audioquest Coffee USB cable and I've never heard music played via USB sound as good as with the DAVE.


----------



## Rob Watts

Jawed said:


> I doubt it would be solved. RFI doesn't just magically disappear because the device is battery powered. The device is just a computer after all. Newer computers (PCs or iOS) seem to be better in terms of RFI pollution, judging loosely based on who complains the most...
> 
> An iPad Pro might be better than any other USB setup that you own. But it's unlikely to be optimal.
> 
> ...



This categorically has not been my experience - I have listened to many USB cables on Dave many times, and have never been able to hear any difference in USB cables whatsoever. Moreover, the difference between optical and USB is minute, and only apparent with careful AB listening, and in practice inconsequential.

Moreover, your assertion that a battery powered source does not solve RFI is just plain wrong. Battery powered sources, that have no ground connected, coupled via Dave's galvanically isolated USB, has effectively perfect isolation from the source ground to Dave's internal ground. It's isolation is actually more effective than optical via a mains powered source, as the ground coupling loop is via the source to general ground - and that capacitance is measured in fempto Farads or fF, and this coupling capacitance is insignificant compared to the low impedance path of a mains powered optical connection. Just because a source uses optical does not guarantee perfect isolation, as the mains provides a RF connection path into Dave - but a battery powered source via USB does provide effectively perfect isolation.


----------



## ubs28

I suppose I will use the iPad Pro as source then. It has 512 gb of storage which should be enough space.


----------



## statfi

Rob Watts said:


> Setting 1 is about 1 dB boost from DC to 1 kHz; 2 is 1.5 dB, 3 is about 1.9 dB. The LF change is a requirement in order to give the correct time delays for each ear.
> 
> I am confident that the change you are hearing is down to the EQ and not a reduction in transparency because the depth perception improves; with DSP if there is a problem in transparency you hear it with depth getting worse as DSP's problem is small signal non-linearity. But with cross-feed on, depth gets much better.
> 
> Rob


(I am a lurker from Stax Thread III drawn over by TheAttorney.)
1) I would like to hear an answer to TheAttorney's original question: why boost the bass as that should be handled by the design of the headphones?
2) Could you give more detail on getting "the correct time delays"?  Is there a white paper or something on this?


----------



## ray-dude

Rob Watts said:


> The cross-feed function includes EQ to compensate for the head shadowing effect; this means that LF's are boosted by 1.5dB and this would account for the warmer balance.
> 
> Since I have been using Hugo 2 a lot on my travels, I find the cross-feed is absolutely essential to get good depth. I was listening music that had some bells, and it spookily sounded like the bells were in the aircraft; I was so stunned by it I took the headphones off, and realized it was on the recording! But with cross-feed off that "out of your head" illusion completely collapsed.



From Rob's earlier post.  I've found the cross feed to be essential when listening with headphones.  Where I got in trouble was not realizing that cross feed was also on for the RCA outs (2 channel).  It really messed up the soundstage on 2 channel.  If you flip back and forth between headphones and 2 channel, remember to check your cross feed settings if something is off


----------



## JaZZ (Oct 3, 2017)

statfi said:


> (I am a lurker from Stax Thread III drawn over by TheAttorney.)
> 1) I would like to hear an answer to TheAttorney's original question: why boost the bass as that should be handled by the design of the headphones?
> 2) Could you give more detail on getting "the correct time delays"?  Is there a white paper or something on this?


1) Actually I agree with _TheAttorney's_ POV.**
2) Increasing the bass has a similar effect as a low-pass filter, since it causes a phase delay with the respective frequencies. In theory this mimics the phase/time delay between the ear closer to the sound source and the ear farther from the sound source.*

Now the question is if this phase delay does have a sonic benefit and if it's worth the coloration and reduction of transparency it causes to some ears (mine included). According to my own attempts with my own crossfeed implementation my answer is a clear no. A plausible justification is that the ears don't use low-frequency phase information for localizing sound sources – maybe they can't detect them at all at such large wavelengths, with delays mostly below one half-wave and signals lacking a clear leading edge. Moreover I get better spatial depth from my own crossfeed than from Chord's, not to speak of the perceived impulse response as well as general transparency and neutrality.

_* [Edit:]_ My above reasoning may indeed reflect the intention behind the bass increase, but after a closer look the general low-frequency boost actually isn't justified. Crossfeed consists of mixing the low-frequency content of one channel to the other one, progressively monophonizing low frequencies from a defined «corner frequency» somewhere in the (lower) midrange. That means decreasing the bass in the original stereo channels (by ~6 dB) and mixing the low-passed crosstalk with reversed channels to them (reduced by again ~6 dB). This process already creates a distinct phase delay in the desired direction. No need for a general bass boost then... 

** _[Edit:]_ I share _TheAttorney's_ view on the matter in that a perceivedly «neutral» sounding headphone already compensates for the lacking «shadowing effect» in speaker-based recordings, no matter if used with crossfeed or not. So crossfeed on or off shouldn't cause a difference in the tonal balance.


----------



## TheAttorney

My simple view of any DSP is that it must be a trade-off between the good objective versus the bad loss of transparency inevitable to some extent every time you muck about with the signal. So I always do the minimum DSP necessary to get only the most essential jobs done. The Roon EQ example below is for my HEK V2's on DAVE's Cross-Feed 2 setting.

The HF dip is to correct a subjective thinness of the HEK's. Required irrespective of any CF settings.

The broad LF dip is purely to correct a perceived loss of transparency when using CF. As JaZZ had pointed out a while back, the HEK's are very sensitive to the impact of bass boost, that may not necessarily apply to other headphones.


 

Rob's much earlier response indicated that DAVE's CF bass boost goes up to 1khz (without specifying at the time what the curve looked like).
My bass compensation doesn't do that, it tails off by about 500hz. My compensation setting is based purely on what sounds good to me, rather than trying to directly inverse the CF bass boost.

Now, I don't know what phase effects are caused by DAVE's CF, and I don't know what further phase effects are caused by Roon's EQ. I don't know if Roon's EQ is exacerbating phasing issues or accidently correcting an issue caused by the CF. All I know is that if I employ CF for the HEK's, I must also employ some bass cut in order to regain transparency. And I can hear, or think I can hear, tiny differences in these adjustments. 

When I tried similar tests with my Stax SR-009's, they were nowhere near as sensitive to either CF or EQ adjustments. But the directly driven HEK's appear to be so.


----------



## Jawed

Rob Watts said:


> This categorically has not been my experience - I have listened to many USB cables on Dave many times, and have never been able to hear any difference in USB cables whatsoever.


Previously you reported worthwhile results with Jitterbug:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-230#post-12681548

After you posted that, I started to take the subject of RF filtering seriously. The first thing I tried was this cable for my Hugo TT:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B008VOPCGY

which has two built-in ferrite cores, one at each end. I heard a small improvement with that. That lead me to experiment with Jitterbugs, and I ended-up with the recommended configuration of two of them, which I did one at a time over a period of some months. Each step was an improvement.

Recently I've been experimenting with substantial amounts of RF filtering on the USB cable, having discovered that filtering with ferrite cores is additive. I have used the double-length version of the cable I linked above, with three different kinds of ferrite bought from Maplin. I've now got 14 of these three designs added on to the USB cable and to be quite frank, it's shocking how much difference it has made.

In my opinion one or two is simply not enough. As I wrote in the Blu 2 thread, when summarising a paper on ferrite experiments, there's a threshold effect. If you don't use enough ferrites then you will hear no change. It could be argued the only limit is the length of the cable. 

I will be buying more ferrites. My local Maplin only has two of each design in stock at any one time. I might buy some bulk packs from Amazon...



> Moreover, the difference between optical and USB is minute, and only apparent with careful AB listening, and in practice inconsequential.


I plan to try an optical cable in my system, as that should be close to optimal and at the very least provide another perspective.



> Moreover, your assertion that a battery powered source does not solve RFI is just plain wrong. Battery powered sources, that have no ground connected, coupled via Dave's galvanically isolated USB, has effectively perfect isolation from the source ground to Dave's internal ground. It's isolation is actually more effective than optical via a mains powered source, as the ground coupling loop is via the source to general ground - and that capacitance is measured in fempto Farads or fF, and this coupling capacitance is insignificant compared to the low impedance path of a mains powered optical connection. Just because a source uses optical does not guarantee perfect isolation, as the mains provides a RF connection path into Dave - but a battery powered source via USB does provide effectively perfect isolation.


You have reported that you have detected no sensitivity to mains cable borne RFI with DAVE when trying ferrites, so in a system with optical connection to a mains powered source there shouldn't be RF injected into DAVE.

Anyway, my assertion that battery powered sources are not a solution is based on them being computers, which are strong sources of RF noise.

I don't have a battery powered source to try with my DAVE. I could try borrowing a tablet from a friend.

Roy, in the next post after you, describes how he found that a battery-powered laptop was significantly worse than microRendu:



romaz said:


> What is interesting, however, is that unlike my comparison of different USB cables where the best cables were only subtlely better than a $10 printer USB cable, the microRendu was clearly superior to the Windows laptop, even to my wife who doesn't have a well-trained ear, because the differences are not so subtle.


Did you ever try a microRendu?

Apparently we're ultra sensitive to noise modulation and transient timing, and I'm now wondering if we're detecting RFI at hundreds of dB down where it still can cause noise modulation and/or spoil transient timing. Hence I'm going to continue to add ferrites to my USB cable and play with an optical cable...

Now playing: Holger Czukay - Boat Woman Song


----------



## Jawed

So, I started rummaging to work out what optical cable to buy and found a post by TheAttorney, where he mentioned that DAVE comes with an optical cable.

So with some desk rearrangement fuss, because the optical cable is so short, I've been comparing optical and USB.

Good news: USB is close to optical, same beautiful character, which I've been falling in love with these last few days, since the most recent addition of ferrites.

Bad news: optical is better.

On Mazzy Star's Still Cold there are three basic rhythms going on, from the start with acoustic guitar strumming, then tambourine, then drums. On USB these three different rhythms are in an unresolved, quiet, argument with each other. With optical they mingle and intertwine and flow beautifully together through the long crescendo of the track.

On Joy Division's Transmission (BBC Session) the introductory drumming is more clearly differentiated across the drums and strumming on the electric guitar comes through just a little bit clearer. The rapid bass guitar plucking in the intro pulls me in more insistently with optical.

Overall, optical is just a little faster and tighter. The slight sloppiness of USB, with a small amount of bass emphasis, seems initially attractive but after a while I started to notice little rhythmic glitches and masking of the very fastest transients.

So, erm, I guess I should try some more ferrites. And perhaps see about getting a longer optical cable.

Now playing: The Auters - Idiot Brother


----------



## GraveNoX (Oct 3, 2017)

If you have EMI or RFI problems, I highly recommend something like https://www.amazon.co.uk/APC-Surge-Arrest-Essential-Protection/dp/B01566MGLI/ which i use to connected PC, monitor, speakers, Mojo etc.
It's night and day difference on my Chord Mojo, basically everything sound better when connected to that cable, even $10 speakers sound better if connected TO THE monitor's jack (WITHOUT MOJO).
Nano IDSD also got a big improvement.
Vocals are way more intelligible and minuscule sounds are obvious to hear. Now bass is extremely clean and extremely tight. AQ Jitterbug is absolutely useless now.

It filters from 30 to 50dB from 150khz to 10Mhz.
If you want something more hardcore, you can buy a cable and add something from here http://www.mouser.com/Power/Power-Condition/Power-Line-Filters/_/N-axgnp/
For example this brand: http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/418/NG_CS_1654001_CORCOM_PRODUCT_GUIDE_0611-727381.pdf
The numbers in the list are the minimums you can achieve in the noisiest environment. If the location of your house is not so noisy because of RFI, you get more noise attenuation than the numbers in the list.
I recommend http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity-Corcom/16FC10B/ check page 34 from manual
or http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/6EQ3/
or VAQ series = insane specs (100 dB attenuation from 100Khz to 1Ghz!!) - I guess is discontinued - $300 for only 6 Amps
or FCD series for 3-phase
or ADT series for 3-phase
Some of them can be used at the electric panel of your house and everything from there is filtered because such filters are *symmetrical* They filter noise that comes from your energy supplier and noise that comes from things connected to the outlets.
Google for "Common Mode vs Differential Mode" -> common mode means everything you connect in the house, you get interference on your AUDIO SYSTEM
Differential mode means you get noise in your system through earth line



I also did some research on Schaffner filters, they are a little disappointed by the measurements
Chosen by measurements:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Schaffner/FN352Z-6-06/ 6 amps
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Schaffner/FN2070M-6-06/ 6 amps
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Schaffner/FN2090NN-4-06/ only 4 amp version
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Schaffner/FN9244ER-3-06/ only 3 amp version
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Schaffner/FN9290-2-06/ only 2 amp version
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Schaffner/FN2090NN-6-06/ all good from 1 to 12 amps
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Schaffner/FN700Z-6-06/ hardcore specs

Some needs http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Bulgin/PX0588/
C14 = female, C13 = Male, PSU from a PC has C14


Other solutions
http://www.mouser.com/Power/Power-Condition/Power-Outlet-Strips/_/N-axgo4/
http://www.mouser.com/Passive-Compo...ression/Common-Mode-Filters-Chokes/_/N-bl20q/
http://www.mouser.com/Passive-Components/EMI-Filters-EMI-Suppression/Ferrites/_/N-bw7t4/
http://www.mouser.com/Passive-Compo...ssion/EMI-Gaskets-Sheets-Absorbers/_/N-bkrm8/

There are buildings in the world that tests such devices and they attenuate the whole EMI/RFI spectrum to 80dB and 80dB is considered the top of the line and everything above is useless to attenuate.


----------



## Triode User

GraveNoX said:


> If you have EMI or RFI problems, I highly recommend something like https://www.amazon.co.uk/APC-Surge-Arrest-Essential-Protection/dp/B01566MGLI/ which i use to connected PC, monitor, speakers, Mojo etc.
> It's night and day difference on my Chord Mojo, basically everything sound better when connected to that cable, even $10 speakers sound better if connected TO THE monitor's jack (WITHOUT MOJO).
> Nano IDSD also got a big improvement.
> Vocals are way more intelligible and minuscule sounds are obvious to hear. Now bass is extremely clean and extremely tight. AQ Jitterbug is absolutely useless now.
> ...




For me the really interesting thing about this post was the first video which clearly shows that different coax cables have very different shielding. By the way here, I doubt very much that the best shielded scope cable discussed costs much more than peanuts per m compared to the worst cable. Also that the noise does not always originate in the source device.


----------



## GraveNoX (Oct 4, 2017)

A laptop is so good as a source
NOT



A plasma TV radiate RFI that can be detected from 1 MILE from the TV, it's insane.

Such things should be already known when talking about a such expensive DAC and when I see people talking about Audioquest Jitterbug that helps, it makes me sick.

Interference is everywhere, in very inch of your house or your body.

Chord DACs are very susceptible to RFI that can change 90% of the final sound and you get only 10% of what the DAC can actually do (which is still enough to beat the other ASIC DACs)

That's why rich people FIRST build the audio system and then they build the house around it.


----------



## Ra97oR

I have done listening inside a Fully Anechoic RF chamber at work with my Mojo portable setup. I didn't hear any difference.


----------



## Triode User

Ra97oR said:


> I have done listening inside a Fully Anechoic RF chamber at work with my Mojo portable setup. I didn't hear any difference.



Er, so what?


----------



## Ra97oR

Triode User said:


> Er, so what?


Exactly, my response to this whole page of RFI/EMI posts unrelated to the DAVE directly. Even after Rob's reply already.

I sincerely hope that @GraveNoX have all intentional radiators (phones, WiFi routers, Bluetooth devices) turned off at home before worrying about emissions from other stuff.

Note, I do perfer my non-galvanic isolated USB Mojo with Optical for my PC connection and to bypass the Mojo device driver.


----------



## onsionsi

Does anyone attend the “Beyond Off-The-Shelf DAC Chips” seminar by Rob Watts in RMAF occasion?


----------



## jarnopp

onsionsi said:


> Does anyone attend the “Beyond Off-The-Shelf DAC Chips” seminar by Rob Watts in RMAF occasion?



Didn't attend, but if you are interested, presentation here and subsequent post:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-23#post-13772429


----------



## Malcyg (Oct 12, 2017)

romaz said:


> If you guys are interested in a really good read, just check out all of Rob's posts -- you'll come out feeling a lot smarter. I've compiled some of Rob's comments that are among my favorites (if you are not able to locate certain comments I have attributed to Rob as comments he has publicly made on Head-Fi, it is because some of the comments were made privately to me). Some comments were made with respect to the Mojo but should apply equally to the DAVE. Consider some of his answers as best practices with the DAVE.
> 
> What is most important with the DAVE?
> 
> ...




This goes back quite a while (Jan 2016) and it may have been missed or overlooked by some, but there is lots of useful info in here if you have not already seen it. I kept this link and have referred to it several times since it was posted and it has certainly helped me optimise my own setup along with other pearls of wisdom from various forum members here.


----------



## musickid

when using dave with roon does dave automatically appear either as a networked device or as a usb dac which is on roon's database? for eg with my mojo it comes up as chord mojo chord electronics. if someone could do a quick screenshot that would be great. i'm looking into the possibility of a dave next year. thanks to all.


----------



## Whazzzup

I get Hugo TT since that’s what I’m using with antipodes roon core server. You’d think you would get Dave


----------



## musickid (Oct 12, 2017)

so you don't manually enter the name it automatically appears with chord electronics written next to it? thanks mk

also does anyone have experience of oppo pm1 with dave?


----------



## x RELIC x

Thanks to @miceblue here is Rob's talk at RMAF this year.


----------



## TheAttorney

musickid said:


> when using dave with roon does dave automatically appear either as a networked device or as a usb dac which is on roon's database? for eg with my mojo it comes up as chord mojo chord electronics. if someone could do a quick screenshot that would be great. i'm looking into the possibility of a dave next year. thanks to all.



On my W10 laptop, DAVE appears as "Chord ASIO Driver v1.05" when connected direct via USB, and as microRendu when connected via mR network, as in screenshot below.

Incidentally, when I installed the latest Chord driver for W10, the above v1.05 information didn't change. So I don't know if the new driver has been picked up or not.


----------



## musickid

Do you find any real need to replace the laptop with a dedicated server capable of streaming roon? are sonic improvements noticeable here? thanks for the screen shot btw. MK.


----------



## TheAttorney (Oct 15, 2017)

I'm finding that _everything_ upstream of DAVE makes a difference. The more I look into it, the more differences I notice.

For example, running off the laptop's internal battery instead of mains connection; putting laptop into airplane mode to disable its wifi (subtle this one); swtiching round the power supplies to the microRendu and ISORegen; upgrading mR to v1.4 (basically a clock upgrade).

More recently I've noticed I can tailor the sound to a certain extent by different settings of Fidelizer Pro running on my laptop. Smoother sound in "streamer mode", more dynamic sound in "audio player mode" but with some digital glare. Even more dynamic sound in "audio player minus networking mode" and with a reduction of that digital glare, but this best of both worlds mode is extremely restrictive when networking with mR.

So yes, I expect a high quality dedicated server to give yet further improvements over my laptop - even though the mR+IR have already transformed what I had previously achieved from my laptop.


----------



## TheAttorney (Oct 16, 2017)

My most recent upstream change was last night to add 4 ferrite cores to my Supra CAT8 cable between laptop and mR - the same ones referenced by Rob in the Blu2 thread.
(Edit: these 4 were added to 1 larger core (of unkown spec) that I had previously added from my spares box - at the time I hadn't noticed this single core make any difference, but I hadn't tried very hard. For practical reasons, all these cores were in the centre of the 2M cable).

This further reduced glare and also seemed to more overtly reduce HF sound (e.g. cymbals), rather like a tone control. I liked the change on first pass, but it's too soon to be a conclusive recommendation, as I'm still getting used to the mRv1.4 clock upgrade, which also is giving a more natural presentation, but without such an obvious HF tone control effect.

Also, my ferrite core delivery from CPC didn't include an unlock key, so it's not so easy to take these cores off the cable for a/b comparisons (still possible though by using 2 thin pointy things, like a micro-sized screwdriver). So this observation falls into my "worthy of further investigation" pile.


----------



## Jawed

You should apply the ferrites to the digital signal cable that connects to DAVE, placing them on the cable close to DAVE. DAVE contains the analogue circuit that is affected by RF noise, so the filtering should be as close to DAVE as possible.

A clear indication it's better is that you'll hear metal, percussive, sounds such as cymbals, tambourines and bells sound faster and clearer. The reduction in distortion on those sounds will also make them less "spiky" sounding, which initially appears as if the treble has been rolled off. But it hasn't, it's simply a faster, cleaner sound. You'll hear the individual metallic sounds much more easily.

This is also the reason you'll hear less errant sibilance: speed and refinement in treble turns a "messy sibilant" into a cleaner sound that is more natural.

In general everything sounds faster and extra detail is revealed instead of being covered up by a smeary/spiky mess. You'll also notice an increase in bass power and groove in the music will be more obvious. etc. The effect is top-to-bottom sonically and musically.

The right place for ferrites is close to DAVE. Everything else you do to optimise noise within the digital components is irrelevant if you filter the input to DAVE correctly with ferrites. If you can hear changes because of tweaks to your digital components, you need to use more ferrites on the cable that connects to DAVE.

Now playing: Hazel O'Connor - Will You?


----------



## Whazzzup

More cowbell


----------



## TheAttorney

Jawed said:


> The right place for ferrites is close to DAVE.



Unfortunately, those 7.5mm ferrite cores are too small for fit around my fat-ish audiophile USB cable that goes into DAVE - otherwise I would have tried that.
What I can try though is to replace my audiophile USB cable with a stock (thin) cable with the ferrites. That will be an interesting test.

I bought my Tellurium Q Black Diamond USB cable ages ago, well before DAVE. At the time, the TQ absolutely trounced a stock cable on a previous DAC. That was the first time that I realized that cables still matter in the digital world. And as I already own the TQ, I've not seen any point in doing any further comparisons against stock.... until now!


----------



## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> Unfortunately, those 7.5mm ferrite cores are too small for fit around my fat-ish audiophile USB cable that goes into DAVE - otherwise I would have tried that.
> What I can try though is to replace my audiophile USB cable with a stock (thin) cable with the ferrites. That will be an interesting test.
> 
> I bought my Tellurium Q Black Diamond USB cable ages ago, well before DAVE. At the time, the TQ absolutely trounced a stock cable on a previous DAC. That was the first time that I realized that cables still matter in the digital world. And as I already own the TQ, I've not seen any point in doing any further comparisons against stock.... until now!


 
Get your knife out then and sort the fatty cables out. Make them thin. Make them ferrite compatible. 

It's only a plastic casing. Some duct tape will soon repair the cable if you decide to take the ferrites off!


----------



## TheAttorney (Oct 16, 2017)

Triode User said:


> Get your knife out then and sort the fatty cables out. Make them thin. Make them ferrite compatible.
> 
> It's only a plastic casing. Some duct tape will soon repair the cable if you decide to take the ferrites off!



Yeah, right, I'll just take a knife to that £650 cable - what harm could that possibly do to it's resale value? .
Actually, for the cable fatties, is bigger better in the ferrite core world? Does size matter? Could I just order a bigger ferrite, or do I have to be more scientific than that?

Anyway, I've had some spare time this afternoon, so I've done a really fast shootout to try to get a handle on the impact of the ferrites.
Firstly, none of the following is conclusive, parlly because my brain gets easily confused with too many variables changing too quickly, but nevertheless I did end up with a pecking order that will point me to further investigation.
This shootout was complicated by the fact that I have an ISORegen (with its short, hard USB connector) immediately before DAVE's USB input. Now, the IR's designer would claim that the IR is filtering USB noise in a far more sophisticated way than a lump of ferrite (mR's designer would say the same for his product), so I initially took the IR out of the equation.

So, start point = W10 laptop USB socket -> USB>ethernet dongle thingey -> Supra CAT8 cable -> mR v1.4 -> TQ USB cable -> IR -> hard connector -> DAVE USB socket.

No ferrites involved anywhere at this point. I then made changes as follows:

1. Replaced the IR & TQ with a stock cable with 4 ferrites at the DAVE end. So the last part of  my chain was: mR v1.4 -> stock USB cable with 4Fs -> DAVE USB socket.
2. Replaced "stock USB cable with 4Fs" with TQ USB cable with no ferrites.
3. Put the IR back into the chain, so now we're back at the start point above.
4. Added the 4 ferrites to the middle of the Supra CAT8 ethernet cable.

The above order was also the order of SQ, i.e. (1) was worst sounding because of a slight edge/glare to the sound, with the next ones being progressively more natural sounding.
I repeat that this is not conclusive, and I'm not able to quantify the (objectively quite small) differences at each point - to get the full impact I'd need to test over a much longer period.

However, based on the results so far, I'm glad I didn't cut up my £650 cable . and will next investigate further whether change (4) is real or imaginary.


----------



## statfi

TheAttorney said:


> Unfortunately, those 7.5mm ferrite cores are too small for fit around my fat-ish audiophile USB cable that goes into DAVE - otherwise I would have tried that...





Triode User said:


> Get your knife out then and sort the fatty cables out. Make them thin. Make them ferrite compatible.
> 
> It's only a plastic casing. Some duct tape will soon repair the cable if you decide to take the ferrites off!



Tape and/or tie wraps work, or you can get pretty much anything you need from 

http://www.fair-rite.com/product-category/suppression-components/round-cable-snap-its/

If you are using any mains power, I suggest you try applying ferrite to any power cables.  Efficacy will vary depending on the quality of the house wiring, time of day, power company, etc.


----------



## Triode User (Oct 16, 2017)

TheAttorney said:


> Actually, for the cable fatties, is bigger better in the ferrite core world? Does size matter? Could I just order a bigger ferrite, or do I have to be more scientific than that?



Yes it does matter, yes they are all different, yes you do need to be more scientific than just getting a bigger diameter one.

But all is not lost, just select one that is the same spec (impedance, min freq, max freq) as the ones we are using.

This is what we are using
http://uk.farnell.com/wurth-elektronik/74271131s/ferrite-core-split-7-5mm-246ohm/dp/2082472

This is the choice;
http://uk.farnell.com/c/passive-com...rites-ferrite-assortments/split-core-ferrites

Actually I have just edited my post as I notice you are talking about usb and these ferrite things started being used on the bnc from Blu2 to Dave and the usb might or might not have the same issues.


----------



## musickid

will davina be a better alternative to blu2 as a ddc into dave or is it still early days to know. also with a laptop feeding roon into dave have any tests been done which indicate wifi is superior to wired or vice versa. i would assume with a battery powered laptop the leaning would be towards wifi and no extra ethernet cable to keep things as pure as possible. what do most members do here on that one? cheers mk


----------



## Whazzzup

Wired over wifi. Especially if coming from a music server.


----------



## Triode User

Whazzzup said:


> Wired over wifi. Especially if coming from a music server.



Yes, there is a theory that using WiFi merely generates more emi / rf because the laptop generates a signal as well as receiving. I have heard several people say they prefer wired from the router to the streamer/laptop.


----------



## Jawed

TheAttorney said:


> 1. Replaced the IR & TQ with a stock cable with 4 ferrites at the DAVE end. So the last part of  my chain was: mR v1.4 -> stock USB cable with 4Fs -> DAVE USB socket.


It might have been interesting for you to try 0: with no ferrites applied to the stock USB cable, so that you could witness the difference at this step.

In my setup the biggest change came with adding six ferrites to go from 10 to 16 on the USB cable. I expect four isn't enough, but no-one knows what's enough and less noisy systems could get away with less. I know I need more, I just have to get round to ordering them...

Now playing: Arab Strap - Trippy


----------



## paulchiu

Getting rid of a computer is best.  Besides WiFi, there are just too many processes that may affect the music.




Triode User said:


> Yes, there is a theory that using WiFi merely generates more emi / rf because the laptop generates a signal as well as receiving. I have heard several people say they prefer wired from the router to the streamer/laptop.


----------



## musickid

incredible website billy. i'm moved truly.


----------



## TheAttorney

Jawed said:


> It might have been interesting for you to try 0: with no ferrites applied to the stock USB cable, so that you could witness the difference at this step.
> 
> In my setup the biggest change came with adding six ferrites to go from 10 to 16 on the USB cable.



Yes, swapping ferrites on the stock USB cable would have given further info, but impatience and lack of unlock key made me stick to combinations that _improved_ the sound. Nevertheless, I've now ordered some 7.5mm and 10.5mm ferrites and unlock key, so will report back with an update in a week or two. 

I find the idea of 16 ferrites per cable rather disturbing - there really has to be a more elegant solution out there, speaking of which it's quite likely that IR's and mR's own filtering functions will skew the outcome of any such comparisons.


----------



## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> Yes, swapping ferrites on the stock USB cable would have given further info, but impatience and lack of unlock key made me stick to combinations that _improved_ the sound. Nevertheless, I've now ordered some 7.5mm and 10.5mm ferrites and unlock key, so will report back with an update in a week or two.
> 
> I find the idea of 16 ferrites per cable rather disturbing - there really has to be a more elegant solution out there, speaking of which it's quite likely that IR's and mR's own filtering functions will skew the outcome of any such comparisons.



There was a video of the RF measuring lab posted here or one of the other threads that had a 4 or 5m cable with a split core ferrite every 100mm or so. 

Bulk buy is the answer.


----------



## JaZZ

Another, very wallet-friendly solution is optical connection. It also saves you a lot of time (in the quest for further minute improvements) that you can invest in listening to music. That's my current solution with a desktop computer as source. I can easily renounce DSD. I could also live with a USB cable full of ferrite cores if it would offer a sonic advantage (my cables usually aren't visible from my listening place anyway).


----------



## musickid

don't you negate the superior asynchrous master clock inside dave by going optical? for a cheap dac maybe but for a 8k dac?


----------



## Whazzzup

Go USB to HD port


----------



## JaZZ (Oct 17, 2017)

musickid said:


> don't you negate the superior asynchrous master clock inside dave by going optical? for a cheap dac maybe but for a 8k dac?



Well, Rob himself recommends optical, saying the audible difference to an optimal USB connection be negligible to nonexistent, only noticeable in direct comparison if at all. In any event it's simple, cheap and relaxing.


----------



## Whazzzup

From my server usb is preferred I don't use ferrits i equate that to using more cow bell.


----------



## musickid

i understand rob as saying a variety of different usb cables all sounded identical to him. also the difference between optical/usb was minute as to be inconsequential. he also stated a battery powered laptop offered a higher degree of isolation than using a desktop optical out mains powered. if i can afford a dave next year i want to satisfy the designers tested outcomes whilst spending my money on the real hardware and the minimal amount on tweaks.


----------



## Kamil21

Apologies if this has been posted before, but this reviewer thinks that the dCS Network Bridge is a good match for Dave. Best money spent on that than exotic cables!

https://www.dcsltd.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/HiFiPlus_Network_Bridge_review_Oct17.pdf


----------



## musickid (Oct 17, 2017)

why not just use a battery powered laptop with ssd drive. rob has clearly stated this in conjunction with dave's galv.isol. usb offers total isolation better than optical. the money saved could go towards 4K abyss headphones where a massive night/day improvement is instantly noticed?


----------



## statfi

TheAttorney said:


> I find the idea of 16 ferrites per cable rather disturbing - there really has to be a more elegant solution out there, speaking of which it's quite likely that IR's and mR's own filtering functions will skew the outcome of any such comparisons.



CAUTION: what follows is a long plea of ignorance and request for more knowledge

I had to deal with magnetic interference at 9kHz for scanning electron microscopes in semiconductor wafer fabs, and looked into generic shielding enough to have a glimmer of *how much I did not know or understand*.  This was a "nice battle" to fight because the magnetic field caused the electron beam to wiggle to give wavy images: you could see, measure and document the bottom-line problem.  Parameters of interest are frequency of interference, electric vs. magnetic fields, etc.  In some cases a "faraday cage" will be an effective shield, i.e., a conductive surface completely surrounding the shielded area.  I *think* this is what Enklein does for http://www.enklein.com/usb.htm.  I would love for the TheAttorney to purchase one and report back  !-)  *I think* that Faraday cages are good for really high frequency electric fields.  For my 9kHz magnetic interference, a Faraday shield would not work, so, in addition to making the cover of high permeability metal, we used active cancellation: a Spicer system with a triaxial magnetometer, three huge coils surrounding the ~8'x8'x12' SEM, and a powerful feedback system.  Talk about not so "elegant"!

I have found empirically that on the order of 10 ferrite cores on power cables are efficacious.  Different ferrites are most effective at different frequencies.  However, I do not know what frequency we are fighting, so I used 2 "flavors" of ferrites in some cases: shots in the dark.

(I am an analog guy, and have not cared enough about USB to play in that sand box, yet  !-)

So, if someone out there knows either what we are fighting or the best way of doing it, please let us know.  References to publications would be nice.  Maybe Chord knows?


----------



## musickid (Oct 17, 2017)

maybe trusting the designer who clearly states he heard no difference with different usb cables is enough? it is akin to trying to contain an epidemic that appears to be out of control with no boundaries? rfi/emi can never be totally eliminated only minimised to a level by which its impact on the sound quality of a high performance dac goes unnoticed to the ear. the analogy here being that emi/rfi is the virus causing epidemic. by introducing concepts concerning solid state physics this seems totally absurd to me when the final goal is musical enjoyment. with regards to ferrite cores if they help then good. i for one will not be troubling myself with such approaches. what about custom faraday cages designed for dave which decode mqa at the same time?


----------



## Whazzzup

musickid said:


> why not just use a battery powered laptop with ssd drive. rob has clearly stated this in conjunction with dave's galv.isol. usb offers total isolation better than optical. the money saved could go towards 4K abyss headphones where a massive night/day improvement is instantly noticed?


because its better sq through an external server, for a variety of reasons although listening will confirm that.


----------



## Whazzzup

musickid said:


> maybe trusting the designer who clearly states he heard no difference with different usb cables is enough? it is akin to trying to contain an epidemic that appears to be out of control with no boundaries? rfi/emi can never be totally eliminated only minimised to a level by which its impact on the sound quality of a high performance dac goes unnoticed to the ear. the analogy here being that emi/rfi is the virus causing epidemic. by introducing concepts concerning solid state physics this seems totally absurd to me when the final goal is musical enjoyment. with regards to ferrite cores if they help then good. i for one will not be troubling myself with such approaches. what about custom faraday cages designed for dave which decode mqa at the same time?


Im unsure of sonic differences but i use top quality usb for insurance purposes although some posters swear by them, i swear by my server tho.


----------



## Jawed

TheAttorney said:


> I find the idea of 16 ferrites per cable rather disturbing - there really has to be a more elegant solution out there,


It appears you mean that 16 ferrites are "ugly and cumbersome looking" 

Well think of it like this: ferrite cores are a filter for the problems caused by all the equipment that processes the digital signal, transmitted along the cable that plugs into DAVE and for the tendency of the cable, itself, to act as an antenna.

We already know that each piece of equipment that processes the digital signal is failing to do so cleanly, otherwise you wouldn't hear improvements from filtering closer to DAVE. Ferrites are actually the strongest filter you can use (if you use enough).

They are also extremely easy to buy, easy to use and cheap. So the best filtering is the simplest and cheapest. That sounds like the elegant solution to me... 

I suppose you could find a cloth braid type cover to wrap the entire cable if you thought it would look better as an "audiophile hose"! And it would be heavy, too.



> speaking of which it's quite likely that IR's and mR's own filtering functions will skew the outcome of any such comparisons.


At worst, it just means you'll need to use more ferrites than expected to hear any change. When you hear a change, it is by definition an improvement and proof that the other equipment has failed at being "clean".

Now playing: Anouar Brahem - Uns


----------



## Jawed

statfi said:


> So, if someone out there knows either what we are fighting or the best way of doing it, please let us know.



http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

http://www.bennettprescott.com/downloads/grounding_tutorial.pdf


----------



## statfi

Jawed,  Nice references!  Thx.


----------



## SuperBurrito

Does anyone here use their Dave with JRiver and Windows 10?  If so could you please share any preferred setup configuration with both JRiver and Win 10.  I'd just like to confirm that my settings will produce maximum sound quality.  Thanks!


----------



## TheAttorney (Oct 18, 2017)

Jawed said:


> It appears you mean that 16 ferrites are "ugly and cumbersome looking"
> 
> Well think of it like this: ferrite cores are a filter for the problems caused by all the equipment that processes the digital signal, transmitted along the cable that plugs into DAVE and for the tendency of the cable, itself, to act as an antenna.
> 
> ...



An example of a more elegant solution is the Habst BNC cable that romaz reported on in the Blu2 thread.
He acknowledged that ferrites did improve the stock BNC cables, but that the Habst was noticeably better still, although I don't think he clarified whether the Habst could be further improved by ferrites. Therefore, there may be something about the Habst construction that reduces RFI more effectively than ferrites. Or maybe there is something else going on with these cables that is separate to RFI?

Another example is the SOtM CAT7 cable with its built-in small filter box, that romaz and audiobacon have raved over before. And the Wireworld platinum also mentioned recently.

The trouble with all of these alternatives is that they're expensive, and I fully take your points about the ferrites being low cost and scientifically justified, which is why I have more on order to try out. I can't resist a bargain.

In the meantime, after viewing that video about laptop RFI, i've made a couple of free tweaks:

1.   Moved my laptop from 40cm (and 2 wooden shelves) directly above DAVE to an adjacent desk about 1m diaginally across, which is as far as my 2m Supra will allow.
2. Fully switched off my other computer equipment in the room at the mains socket. These were a 2nd laptop, monitor and wifi printer all on a different distribution block to my main rig. These were all off anyway when Iistening, but as the video showed, a laptop can still emit RFI radiation when seemingly off - because of trickle charging, standby activity or whatever.

Anyway, I can't reliably say if these latest tweaks made a difference or not, but with all recent changes in place, including 4 ferrites on the Supra CAT8, further burn-in of mR v1.4 and Fidlizer Pro at its extreme setting, I heard incrementally the best sound yet from my system. So I'll keep that constant now for a few days in order to have a clear reference point for when the new ferrites arrive.


----------



## Jawed

TheAttorney said:


> The trouble with all of these alternatives is that they're expensive, and I fully take your points about the ferrites being low cost and scientifically justified, which is why I have more on order to try out. I can't resist a bargain.


I suppose a way to "measure" the effectiveness of the ferrites you're using is to listen for changes caused by removing other devices that have also been used to improve performance. In theory, when there's enough ferrites, that change elsewhere in the system should make no difference.

I have the optical connection to use as my reference, but I suppose it's more difficult for other people who have nothing in their system that will output optical to DAVE.

Now playing: Nitin Sawnhey - Moonrise


----------



## hmartin

Kamil21 said:


> Apologies if this has been posted before, but this reviewer thinks that the dCS Network Bridge is a good match for Dave. Best money spent on that than exotic cables!
> 
> https://www.dcsltd.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/HiFiPlus_Network_Bridge_review_Oct17.pdf


Thanks!

The DCS Network bridge is nice, but it seems that the only way to get 384 kHz is using the dual XLR solution!? Anyone know if this is compatible with dual XLR on the Dave? And even if that is compatible you would still need a dual XLR on the yet to be announced separate M-Scalar and/or Davina to be able to use of the DCS with a M-Scalar and high-res DXD files.

Maybe better to get an Aries G2 instead, or wait and hope Chord releases a Dave compatible streamer ... hopefully with 802.11ac.


----------



## Beolab (Oct 20, 2017)

hmartin said:


> Thanks!
> 
> The DCS Network bridge is nice, but it seems that the only way to get 384 kHz is using the dual XLR solution!? Anyone know if this is compatible with dual XLR on the Dave? And even if that is compatible you would still need a dual XLR on the yet to be announced separate M-Scalar and/or Davina to be able to use of the DCS with a M-Scalar and high-res DXD files.
> 
> Maybe better to get an Aries G2 instead, or wait and hope Chord releases a Dave compatible streamer ... hopefully with 802.11ac.




There is an FW upgrade for the dCS NB during the following weeks where it will enable the USB input, to be a 384 Khz USB output for the DAVE and other USB DAC's that can handle 384 Khz .
Yes it is the best sounding ( highest precision )  streamer i have personally yet heard period.  ( Better than Aurrender W20 , Auralic , Burmester , MSB Network Streamer , Sonorus Ultra Rendu , SoMtm 200 )


----------



## hmartin

Beolab said:


> There is an FW upgrade for the dCS NB during the following weeks where it will enable the USB input, to be a 384 Khz USB output for the DAVE and other USB DAC's that can handle 384 Khz .
> Yes it is the best sounding ( highest precision )  streamer i have personally yet heard period.  ( Better than Aurrender W20 , Auralic , Burmester , MSB Network Streamer , Sonorus Ultra Rendu , SoMtm 200 )


Thanks Beolab, that is great news indeed. 

Cannot wait for impressions of the USB out to Dave.


----------



## Beolab

Here you can read more about the implementation of MQA and the dCS NB and releas date in Nov. 

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/10/mqa-dcs/


----------



## nicoludio

Hello Rob and all, I am considering using the DAVE connected directly to ADAM active speakers which have XLR inputs only.  I understand that the speakers are fully balanced internally, with single ended input signals converted - using op amps - into a balanced signal prior to amplification.  

Since the DAVE is inherently single ended, with the single ended output converted into balanced form using op amps, which would be the preferred connection configuration:

1. balanced from DAVE to speaker, using the DAVE's op amps; or

2. single ended from DAVE to speaker, using the speaker's op amps?

I suppose the other way to put the question would be whether the op amps in the DAVE would be of better quality than the op amps in the ADAM speakers for converting the single ended output from the DAVE into balanced form.  

The other concern is that the balanced output of the DAVE is rather high - this was measured by Stereophile to be 8.75V from the balanced output jacks vs 4.375V from the single ended outputs - with the possibility of overloading the speaker inputs, although the speakers have an input gain adjustment of + / - 10 dB,  

Any suggestions / advice would be appreciated.


----------



## dmance

Does anyone have any indication that DAVE may be firmware upgraded soon?  I've picked up hints from posts that the WTA filters in Blu2 and Hugo2 are more optimal than in DAVE.  And maybe knowledge from the upcoming DAVINA would further that.  I know Rob Watts said he would only do so if he could enable a substantial improvement in SQ ...but here's hoping that happens soon.  DAVE is approaching 2-years in the field and a mid-life update of some sort is always welcome.


----------



## Triode User

nicoludio said:


> Hello Rob and all, I am considering using the DAVE connected directly to ADAM active speakers which have XLR inputs only.  I understand that the speakers are fully balanced internally, with single ended input signals converted - using op amps - into a balanced signal prior to amplification.
> 
> Since the DAVE is inherently single ended, with the single ended output converted into balanced form using op amps, which would be the preferred connection configuration:
> 
> ...



I am not familiar with those active speakers but you say they only have XLR input so aren’t you fixed with having to use the Dave XLR ie balanced outputs? If you feel the Dave output is too high you could just turn the Dave output down.


----------



## Triode User

dmance said:


> Does anyone have any indication that DAVE may be firmware upgraded soon?  I've picked up hints from posts that the WTA filters in Blu2 and Hugo2 are more optimal than in DAVE.  And maybe knowledge from the upcoming DAVINA would further that.  I know Rob Watts said he would only do so if he could enable a substantial improvement in SQ ...but here's hoping that happens soon.  DAVE is approaching 2-years in the field and a mid-life update of some sort is always welcome.



Well, as you say, the party line from Chord has always been no firmware updates for Dave, ever. 

Out of interest, where did you pick up on thoughts that the Hugo2 filters are more optimal than Dave. I have never heard any such talk and rather doubt it. What issues do you have with Dave that I have not noticed?


----------



## Rob Watts

nicoludio said:


> Hello Rob and all, I am considering using the DAVE connected directly to ADAM active speakers which have XLR inputs only.  I understand that the speakers are fully balanced internally, with single ended input signals converted - using op amps - into a balanced signal prior to amplification.
> 
> Since the DAVE is inherently single ended, with the single ended output converted into balanced form using op amps, which would be the preferred connection configuration:
> 
> ...



My guess would be balanced from Dave.

And use Dave's volume control, that will solve the potential for too high a voltage driving the ADAM.


----------



## nicoludio

Triode User said:


> I am not familiar with those active speakers but you say they only have XLR input so aren’t you fixed with having to use the Dave XLR ie balanced outputs? If you feel the Dave output is too high you could just turn the Dave output down.





Rob Watts said:


> My guess would be balanced from Dave.
> 
> And use Dave's volume control, that will solve the potential for too high a voltage driving the ADAM.



Thanks.  I could have the interconnects terminated with RCA plugs at the DAVE end and XLR plugs at the speaker end, so taking advantage of the DAVE's better quality and lower level single ended outputs. Having said that, I guess the op amps in the DAVE should be of a better quality than that in the ADAM, and that balanced would be the way to go.

Can I also assume that using the DAVE's volume control at the lower half (ie, below 50%) would not cause any loss in sound quality, since no bit decimation is utilised to control the volume?


----------



## Rob Watts

nicoludio said:


> Thanks.  I could have the interconnects terminated with RCA plugs at the DAVE end and XLR plugs at the speaker end, so taking advantage of the DAVE's better quality and lower level single ended outputs. Having said that, I guess the op amps in the DAVE should be of a better quality than that in the ADAM, and that balanced would be the way to go.
> 
> Can I also assume that using the DAVE's volume control at the lower half (ie, below 50%) would not cause any loss in sound quality, since no bit decimation is utilised to control the volume?



Yes - as the digital data-path (from input right through to the pulse array outputs) is better than 350 dB, so all truncation errors are eliminated - thus a major change in volume will have no effect on detail resolution and (more critically) depth perception.


----------



## marcmccalmont

I have replaced my DAC and Preamp in 2 systems now with great results
Primary system (balanced) DAVE replaced both an Anedio D2 (ESS Sabre) and a Parasound 2000 (ultra analog) and a Spectral DMC 30 SSII preamp
Secondary system (single ended) HUGO2 replaced an Anedio D2 and a Threshold Fet 10 
Both Dave and Hugo2 are in preamp mode Dave is driving a pair of Spectral amps balanced and Hugo2 is driving a pair of Emotiva powered speakers directly
Dave required ferrites on the inputs and outputs, Hugo2 did not. I also used shorting caps on Dave's unused digital inputs, bnc&aes with positive results
Both systems never sounded better!   Marc


----------



## nicoludio

Thanks, Rob and Marc.


----------



## rrolls (Oct 25, 2017)

nicoludio said:


> Thanks.  I could have the interconnects terminated with RCA plugs at the DAVE end and XLR plugs at the speaker end, so taking advantage of the DAVE's better quality and lower level single ended outputs. Having said that, I guess the op amps in the DAVE should be of a better quality than that in the ADAM, and that balanced would be the way to go.
> 
> Can I also assume that using the DAVE's volume control at the lower half (ie, below 50%) would not cause any loss in sound quality, since no bit decimation is utilised to control the volume?



Your Adam speakers are DSP controlled, so you have this situation:
- DAVE is one of the if not the best in analog conversion, especially when fed with Blu2.
- In the speakers the analog signal will be digitized again, DSP starts with a AD conversion.
- DSP is used to control the speakers in their time and frequency domain.
- Seperate DAC's for each chassis convert the signal to analog again, what a pity for DAVE!
- At the end there is a Class D amp for the woofer and an AB one for the main chassis

So there are 2 AD conversions (one AD in the recording studio or remastering process), 2 DAC's and amp's involved.
If you think about, you have a choice:
If you believe in DSP controlled speakers, you can feed them directly from a digital source, no need for DAVE.
When you think, like me, that a DAVE is more important and a much better DAC than the DSP engine, then you look for other and simpler speakers,
there is even a possibility to run efficient speakers directly from DAVE, an overwhelming experience.


----------



## Kamil21

nicoludio said:


> Hello Rob and all, I am considering using the DAVE connected directly to ADAM active speakers which have XLR inputs only.  I understand that the speakers are fully balanced internally, with single ended input signals converted - using op amps - into a balanced signal prior to amplification.
> 
> Since the DAVE is inherently single ended, with the single ended output converted into balanced form using op amps, which would be the preferred connection configuration:
> 
> ...


I have my Dave driving Adam S1A monitors directly using XLR. Works perfectly.


----------



## Kamil21

hmartin said:


> Thanks!
> 
> The DCS Network bridge is nice, but it seems that the only way to get 384 kHz is using the dual XLR solution!? Anyone know if this is compatible with dual XLR on the Dave? And even if that is compatible you would still need a dual XLR on the yet to be announced separate M-Scalar and/or Davina to be able to use of the DCS with a M-Scalar and high-res DXD files.
> 
> Maybe better to get an Aries G2 instead, or wait and hope Chord releases a Dave compatible streamer ... hopefully with 802.11ac.



The Chord Poly is now out! 

I wonder if anybody has tried running it into Dave... If so, your comments would be appreciated. Hope it turns out to be the giant killer  to the dCS, running off its battery and disconnected from the mains.


----------



## nicoludio

rrolls said:


> Your Adam speakers are DSP controlled, so you have this situation:
> - DAVE is one of the if not the best in analog conversion, especially when fed with Blu2.
> - In the speakers the analog signal will be digitized again, DSP starts with a AD conversion.
> - DSP is used to control the speakers in their time and frequency domain.
> ...



Thanks and I understand the concern with the latest ADAM pro speakers with their built-in ADCs / DACs.  One would not be making full use of the DAVE with such a pairing. 

Fortunately, I will be using the Classic Column Mk3, mainly because of the superb X-ART (AMT based) tweeters and mids. These utilise analog crossovers only, without any DSP in sight. 



Kamil21 said:


> I have my Dave driving Adam S1A monitors directly using XLR. Works perfectly.



Great, thanks.


----------



## hmartin

Kamil21 said:


> The Chord Poly is now out!
> 
> I wonder if anybody has tried running it into Dave... If so, your comments would be appreciated. Hope it turns out to be the giant killer  to the dCS, running off its battery and disconnected from the mains.


Yes I was also thinking about the Poly, I am hopping Chord could basically put the Poly into a "normal chassis" add a good PSU; good antennas and 802.11ac and have the a stationary  "2Connect" (or whatever they want to name it) i.e. like they did with the 2Qute. The poly seems ridiculously over specified for a mobile streamer to the Mojo. 

Overengineering at its finest, that is why we love Chord, Frank and Rob.


----------



## Mojo ideas

hmartin said:


> Yes I was also thinking about the Poly, I am hopping Chord could basically put the Poly into a "normal chassis" add a good PSU; good antennas and 802.11ac and have the a stationary  "2Connect" (or whatever they want to name it) i.e. like they did with the 2Qute. The poly seems ridiculously over specified for a mobile streamer to the Mojo.
> 
> Overengineering at its finest, that is why we love Chord, Frank and Rob.


Sorry guys it won’t be possible to use poly with anything other than a Mojo. As Poly reads usb  back data from Mojo in order to enable itself. We will be bringing out  a comparable unit for Dave and Hugo2  and even  the TT  too in due course.


----------



## Jawed

Mojo ideas said:


> We will be bringing out  a comparable unit for Dave and Hugo2  and even  the TT  too in due course.


Yay, streamer with built-in M-scaler confirmed!



Now playing: Sasaki San - Spinach


----------



## Triode User

Jawed said:


> Yay, streamer with built-in M-scaler confirmed!
> 
> 
> 
> Now playing: Sasaki San - Spinach



Err, where did John Franks say anything about an MScaler in the projected streamer for the Dave?


----------



## Whazzzup

TT just doesn't get the love


----------



## Sonic77

Whazzzup said:


> TT just doesn't get the love



Err yes it does.



Mojo ideas said:


> Sorry guys it won’t be possible to use poly with anything other than a Mojo. As Poly reads usb  back data from Mojo in order to enable itself. We will be bringing out  a comparable unit for Dave and Hugo2  and even  *the* *TT  too in due course*.



Err.


----------



## musickid

where's the m scaler in the streamer coming from javed?


----------



## Christer (Oct 26, 2017)

Triode User said:


> Err, where did John Franks say anything about an MScaler in the projected streamer for the Dave?



Hmm, as far as I can see  absolutely nowhere?
That would of course be the ideal thing for many,and possibly even including me. But will it happen?
Meanwhile for a  seasoned traveller like me with a very surprising new interest in rbcd discs having heard rbcd via BLU2/DAVE , DGG are about to release the perfect rbcd collection for people like me who  really love travelling light.
The biggest ever rbcd boxed set containing everything Karajan recorded for both DGG and DECCA will soon be released by Universal containing 405 hours of music in a neat little box weighing in at 15kg!
When I think of that little cd-box set  it kind of re-awakens my somewhat rusty love of HUGO and  all my hi res music on neat little  portable harddrives that easily fit in a pocket.
It is in Chord's power to make us happy. But will they? And if so, at what cost?
Cheers Christer


----------



## Malcyg

Christer said:


> Hmm, as far as I can see  absolutely nowhere?
> That would of course be the ideal thing for many,and possibly even including me. But will it happen?
> Meanwhile for a  seasoned traveller like me with a very surprising new interest in rbcd discs having heard rbcd via BLU2/DAVE , DGG are about to release the perfect rbcd collection for people like me who  really love travelling light.
> The biggest ever rbcd boxed set containing everything Karajan recorded for both DGG and DECCA will soon be released by Universal containing 405 hours of music in a neat little box weighing in at 15kg!
> ...



Wait a minute - if that is you admitting your conversion, then it is frankly not sufficiently clear!


----------



## Christer

Malcyg said:


> Wait a minute - if that is you admitting your conversion, then it is frankly not sufficiently clear!


Sorry not done with that yet.I still need to listen under much better conditions than here in Singapore to become a convert if at all.A noisy coffeshop is "not really  my cup of tea" for a valid evaluation. 
Cheers Christer


----------



## analogmusic (Oct 28, 2017)

just a question : which interconnects are you all using with the analog RCA outputs of Dave?

I had an interesting few weeks listening around with ones from Vertere and Naim - they all make Dave sound quite different which makes me think - we all hear Dave slightly different, the interconnects do make a difference.


----------



## Triode User

analogmusic said:


> just a question : which interconnects are you all using with the analog RCA outputs of Dave?
> 
> I had an interesting few weeks playing around with ones from Chord (Sarum) and Naim (Superlumina) - they all make Dave sound quite different which makes me think - we all hear Dave slightly different, the interconnects do make a difference.



I currently use Chord Sarum Super Aray. 

I say 'currently' because I am convinced I will find something in the not silly money price range that will sound as good. I did it with speaker cables and it can only be a matter of time with the RCA / Balanced cables . . . . . . . . . .  . 

Of course I might spend that much trying other cables and then where does that get me?!?


----------



## analogmusic (Oct 28, 2017)

well that's a 2100/meter interconnect with a 8000 GBP DAC !

I think some of the Chord's more modestly prices cables might possibly do the job. Like Signature (800 GBP/meter). The Shawline is 200 GBP/meter, and seems to have a lot of the Sarum benefits.

I also found Vertere's Pulse B interconnect to be somewhat less unreasonably priced, but a very strong performer (or well, less harmful to the signal, since that is what the best cables are supposed to do)

It still is very crazy money to me though.

What I found through it that a lot of signal loss/degradation happens on this source to amplifier interconnect - RCA plugs do not seem ideal for transmission of an audio signal.

Keen to know what Rob Watts thinks or suggests?


----------



## Triode User

analogmusic said:


> well that's a 2100/meter interconnect with a 8000 GBP DAC !
> 
> I think some of the Chord's more modestly prices cables might possibly do the job. Like Signature (800 GBP/meter). The Shawline is 200 GBP/meter, and seems to have a lot of the Sarum benefits.
> 
> ...



I did not buy mine new. They were less than half the price you mention although still in crazy territory. As soon as I find a cheaper cable that does the same I will sell the Sarums but so far I am still looking.

When you say the Shawline seems to have a lot of the Sarum benefits, is that from experience of listening or is that what you surmise from what Chord say?


----------



## analogmusic

from listening.... but you would need to try at home yourself. 

as you know Dave is a very high performance DAC, and the higher end cables allow more of the signal from Dave to reach the preamp.


----------



## Triode User

So interested to hear which have you settled on so far?


----------



## analogmusic (Oct 28, 2017)

since I have a Naim preamp, the Naim cables with a DIN connecter seem to work best with their own amplifiers.

The main difference is the bass - I don't know how Naim do it, but on their own cables the bass sounds best in quantity and also the articulation.

I also find vertere cables really good, that would be what I settled on if I had a non Naim amplifier.


----------



## Triode User

analogmusic said:


> since I have a Naim preamp, the Naim cables with a DIN connecter seem to work best with their own amplifiers.
> 
> The main difference is the bass - I don't know how Naim do it, but on their own cables the bass sounds best in quantity and also the articulation.
> 
> I also find vertere cables really good, that would be what I settled on if I had a non Naim amplifier.



Thanks. It's always interesting to know what people use.


----------



## analogmusic (Oct 28, 2017)

I would love to be able to audition the Chord Music - apparently those who heard it say it's the best cable ever, but then 3800 GBP/meter?

it is worth considering that a cable can never make a signal better, the best ones do the least possible damage. So personally i would rather spend the money on a Blu2


----------



## Triode User

analogmusic said:


> I would love to be able to audition the Chord Music - apparently those who heard it say it's the best cable ever, but then 3800 GBP/meter?
> 
> it is worth considering that a cable can never make a signal better, the best ones do the least possible damage. *So personally i would rather spend the money on a Blu2*



Yes, precisely the point I try to make time and time again when people start talking about buying audiophile power supply cables etc. One person had clearly spent more on these than the cost of a Blu2 and yet he couldn't afford a Blu2. (Oh, and throughout my system I just use the kettle type power leads that come with the kit.)


----------



## analogmusic

In my view a quite inexpensive cable is the DFI Vertere range. Won't break the bank, won't sound good as the top Chord 2100 GBP cables or Vertere own top end cables (Pulse R is 2700 GBP/-), but still gives a somewhat good taste of what a hi-end cable sounds like.

I'd much rather have a blu2 with that cable, than a top cable with cost 4000 GBP and no blu.


----------



## walakalulu

I would recommend these cables for UK users http://www.referencefidelitycomponents.co.uk/product/reference-digital/


----------



## walakalulu

I’m seriously considering the Dave/Blu combo at the moment but reading the hassle some are having with glare or dropouts and the need for ferrites on the bnc’s makes me wonder if it’s worth the bother.


----------



## Triode User (Oct 28, 2017)

walakalulu said:


> I’m seriously considering the Dave/Blu combo at the moment but reading the hassle some are having with glare or dropouts and the need for ferrites on the bnc’s makes me wonder if it’s worth the bother.



My advice is to completely ignore the glare issue. Only one person has mentioned it. No one else that has Blu2 and Dave has a clue what he is talking about with his reports of glare due to Blu2. None of the rest of us can hear it.

Regarding the ferrites, Blu2 and Dave sound amazing straight out of the box with no fiddling or messing. I listed to Blu2Dave for weeks before ferrites were even mentioned and the sound was stunning. It is slightly more stunning now with the ferrites but that is fine tuning and is not needed if the owner doesn't want to fiddle.

Some people have had issues with drop outs but this is simply cured by using the other pair of BNC inputs on the Dave so to my mind it is a non issue.

Is Blu2Dave worth the bother? There is no bother to contend with but only buy it you want the best possible available sound from digital sources and CDs.

If not then don't bother.


----------



## walakalulu

Sure - will have another listen to the pair next week and will pull my finger out.


----------



## dmance

Triode User said:


> Well, as you say, the party line from Chord has always been no firmware updates for Dave, ever.
> 
> Out of interest, where did you pick up on thoughts that the Hugo2 filters are more optimal than Dave. I have never heard any such talk and rather doubt it. What issues do you have with Dave that I have not noticed?


I have looked at the history of Hugo2, DAVE and Blu2 threads and, frustratingly,  I cant find the smoking gun post.   I am sure there was something from somebody that indicated, while in dialog with R.Watts - that the WTA filters were tweaked/improved with Blu2 and Hugo2. Was it for SQ or better FPGA utilization - not sure.  Could have been on HeadFi or another forum.  I'll keep on the lookout and let you know.


----------



## audio_1

I received my Dave yesterday and am running it direct into a darTZeel NHB-108 amplifier using 50 ohm Zeel connections. I am waiting on the Blu 2 so am using an Oppo BDP-105 as a CD transport. (Optical cable) It is by far the best sound that I have ever heard. I think that the darTZeel's single transistor pair output stage lets the Dave magic through unhindered. The resolution in the bass, the sound stage, the prat, dynamics, basically everything it is undoubtedly the best DAC that I have heard. The digital volume control is fully transparent. Music is still dynamic at -40 or -50 dB. This is unprecedented in my experience. I heard the Blu 2 at the High end show in May. The main thing I noticed with it was the foot tapping timing. This I believe is one on the hardest things to achieve in a hi-fi system. Even compressed poorly recorded CDs sounded musical.


----------



## GryphonGuy

dmance said:


> I have looked at the history of Hugo2, DAVE and Blu2 threads and, frustratingly,  I cant find the smoking gun post.   I am sure there was something from somebody that indicated, while in dialog with R.Watts - that the WTA filters were tweaked/improved with Blu2 and Hugo2. Was it for SQ or better FPGA utilization - not sure.  Could have been on HeadFi or another forum.  I'll keep on the lookout and let you know.



From what Rob has written on his blog, here on head-fi, he found that tweaking or redesigning (in Blu2 case) the WTA filter code produced better results than with the number of taps alone. So in effect, now, there is a Hugo2 WTA filter, DAVE WTA filter and Blu2 WTA filter. All optimised for the number of taps available in each device and memory available to the FPGA in each device. So there is no need to tweak the DAVE WTA filter as it is already optimised for the hardware and software in use.

Apologies to Rob if I have misunderstood his writings or over-simplified in this precis.

Regards
GG


----------



## Jozurr

Triode User said:


> My advice is to completely ignore the glare issue. Only one person has mentioned it. No one else that has Blu2 and Dave has a clue what he is talking about with his reports of glare due to Blu2. None of the rest of us can hear it.
> 
> Regarding the ferrites, Blu2 and Dave sound amazing straight out of the box with no fiddling or messing. I listed to Blu2Dave for weeks before ferrites were even mentioned and the sound was stunning. It is slightly more stunning now with the ferrites but that is fine tuning and is not needed if the owner doesn't want to fiddle.
> 
> ...



Would you be able to kindly summarize what ferrites you bought, how many do you use, on what cables etc? I've been trying to gather as much info as I can on them via this thread, but the opinions seem to vary too much.


----------



## thunder 99

Sorry to butt in guys but I seem to be having a lot of issue with clipping from the DAVE
DAVE is currently outputting into LCD4s via WA234s + Takatsukis. No issue with direct DAVE out but upon increasing volume on Antipodes DX Gen3 I can hear a lot of distortion in my LCD4s. Have checked everything/cables etc and the headphones themselves are fine because output from DAVE seems fine.
I was in touch with Woo audio who mentioned this
"The reason you are getting some distortion could be that the DAVE is clipping the Input. CHORD chose to use "DAC mode fixes the output level to 3dB (3V
unbalanced, 6V balanced line level output)". The industry standard for unbalanced is 2V and 4V for balanced. We think the high output is to accommodate its preamplifier feature. When using as a DAC, we recommend setting the DAVE to 75% output so it doesn't clip the input of the amplifier. Use the volume control on WA234 to set the listening levels."

Now I was wondering how to set the DAVE to 75% output to follow the above recommendation?

And secondly, I am having to listen to the DAVE in preamp mode at around -10dB to avoid any noticeable clipping (it is always in the high bass sort of region like drums) - so not sure if the numbers add up to what Woo is suggesting in the first place as the DAVE is definitely nowhere near 3dB.

Thanks

Addit: As I was writing this post I realized that there is an option on the Antipodes music server to change volume. Maybe that is somehow also related to this clipping issue.


----------



## Rob Watts

-3dB is 3V RMS, so -10dB would be 1.34V RMS with 0dBFS on the digital input. 75% level from 3v is -5.5 so use -6 on the display - that will set the level to 2.1v max.


----------



## thunder 99

Playing around with the above variables - At the same volume (in my ears) - A fixed setting of 40% or less at Antipodes allows the DAVE between +3db-+7db in Preamp mode to prevent any clipping.
This makes no sense to me but just for reference, these are the numbers I get - Going up on the Antipodes seems to produce a lot more clipping for some reason.


----------



## thunder 99

Oh thanks Rob! just want to say - unbelievable DAC, I am really looking forward to combining it with the M scaler tech, and am eagerly awaiting the Davina as I really dont have any use for CDs but may have some use for the ADC function!


----------



## thisisvv (Nov 6, 2017)

Hi,

I have a question. I got chord dave on April-2107. Suddenly it stopped working. It is giving high pitch noise from output. Needless to say something going bad in 6 months makes me upset.  Now i think i am in warranty, i am talking to dealer he says send me $$$  and i will send you label. Is the warranty says that customer will send himself the unit?



V


----------



## rayl

thisisvv said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a question. I got chord dave on April-2107. Suddenly it stopped working. It is giving high pitch noise from output. Needless to say something going bad in 6 months makes me upset.  Now i think i am in warranty, i am talking to dealer he says send me $$$  and i will send you label. Is the warranty says that customer will send himself the unit?
> 
> ...




I just ordered one and asked what if I need service. Here in the U.S., dealer obtains an RMA and the customer ships unit to North American service address (not to UK).

$100 doesn’t sound expensive given the cost of insurance, but the label or offering to ship it from the store is probably a dealer specific thing.


----------



## lennon909uk

Hello Everyone
Just found this forum and am currently only on P129.  Have had DAVE now for 3 weeks and am still blown away each day by it.  Just wanted some advice re cabling for best results.  I think I've worked out that input should be USB but what is the best output.  My current setup is USB from Mac Mini running audirvana + with chord anthem RCA's into my Mcintosh MA5200 from DAVE.  I found one really useful post that stated don't spend much at all on what goes in but invest in cables that come out.  Would welcome any feedback about any regards to my current setup.  Also does anyone know why some DAVE's came with a small remote and some the larger full system remote?
Kind regards
Richard


----------



## JaZZ (Nov 7, 2017)

lennon909uk said:


> Hello Everyone
> Just found this forum and am currently only on P129.  Have had DAVE now for 3 weeks and am still blown away each day by it.  Just wanted some advice re cabling for best results.  I think I've worked out that input should be USB but what is the best output.  My current setup is USB from Mac Mini running audirvana + with chord anthem RCA's into my Mcintosh MA5200 from DAVE.  I found one really useful post that stated don't spend much at all on what goes in but invest in cables that come out.  Would welcome any feedback about any regards to my current setup.  Also does anyone know why some DAVE's came with a small remote and some the larger full system remote?
> Kind regards
> Richard


Hi Richard

With cables it's hard to tell which is more neutral and which is more colored, as the sonic result is highly dependent on the tonal synergy within the system. I listen via headphones most of the time (where cables play an important part, too), so my use of interconnects is reserved to my electrostats, driven by an SRM-727II. In the past I've favored a short pair of Silver Dragons, until I found out that the smoother, less treble-friendly Zu Gede makes the better pairing without sacrificing detail. It isn't produced anymore, but you may find a used pair on the net. Well, that's all I can tell in terms of interconnects, since I haven't tried many (save for a lot of homegrown ones).

Apart from the cable choice, the best you can do when it comes to connect the DAVE with your MA5200 is to use the latter's power-amp input and DAVE's digital volume control – saves you one needless amplification stage and one analogue potentiometer.


----------



## Clive101

lennon909uk said:


> Hello Everyone
> Just found this forum and am currently only on P129.  Have had DAVE now for 3 weeks and am still blown away each day by it.  Just wanted some advice re cabling for best results.  I think I've worked out that input should be USB but what is the best output.  My current setup is USB from Mac Mini running audirvana + with chord anthem RCA's into my Mcintosh MA5200 from DAVE.  I found one really useful post that stated don't spend much at all on what goes in but invest in cables that come out.  Would welcome any feedback about any regards to my current setup.  Also does anyone know why some DAVE's came with a small remote and some the larger full system remote?
> Kind regards
> Richard



Welcome to Dave ownership.
And a very difficult question to answer,
Everybody will have a different opinion depending on individual circumstances.
If it were me I would investigate the source, Melco N1Z (  version 1 are a bargain if there are any left for sale ), Innuos SE or perhaps antipodes DX. Power source for the whole system, Torus.
USB cables I have tried a few, I found the Curious Cable very good for SQ and value, Chord Sarum T outstanding and still good value and Chord Music edged out over the Sarum T ( but perhaps a little over priced ) I would recommend the Sarum T for a try along with the Curious Cable. I have tried other but these were my preferred cables.
BUT you must test and see what suits your system.
I also found I could get away with cheaper cables when I used a Torus.
Interconnects Sarum T. Speaker cable Sarum T.
Are you looking for headphones ...? Dave is very good as a headphone Amp - DAC. With a good server and power supply you're in for a treat if you go down that route.
The above is only a suggestion.
Let us know how you get on.


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## onlychild

Anyone have a chance to compare how the Dave sounds using optical input from one of the Astell & Kern players like SP1000 or AK380cu vs something like USB from a microRendu or UltraRendu?


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## lennon909uk

Thanks for the early responses. Much appreciated.  I should have said already whilst I do listen on my HD800's it is only a very small amount of the time.(& I use a Grado extension cable  - is this blowing a lot of the quality?  Majority of listening is through my Facts 12s.  Did I misunderstand something as I thought I'd picked up a few times that source was really not at all important once you have DAVE?  Is there any point on spending money on something like a Melco?  What I've picked up from P1 - P135 is that there is no point upgrading my Signature USB but perhaps I should look at changing my chord anthem RCA & Speaker cables?  Is there a big jump from Signature speaker cable to Sarum?  There seems to be a lot pointing to BNC cables rather than RCA if I'm correct?


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## Triode User

lennon909uk said:


> Thanks for the early responses. Much appreciated.  I should have said already whilst I do listen on my HD800's it is only a very small amount of the time.(& I use a Grado extension cable  - is this blowing a lot of the quality?  Majority of listening is through my Facts 12s.  Did I misunderstand something as I thought I'd picked up a few times that source was really not at all important once you have DAVE?  Is there any point on spending money on something like a Melco?  What I've picked up from P1 - P135 is that there is no point upgrading my Signature USB but perhaps I should look at changing my chord anthem RCA & Speaker cables?  Is there a big jump from Signature speaker cable to Sarum?  There seems to be a lot pointing to BNC cables rather than RCA if I'm correct?



Unfortunately this is one where only you can listen and evaluate what you think makes an appreciable difference. I do think that different sources can be heard through Dave despite Rob saying it is less important. For instance I had a demo with the Innuos Zenith SE and it was leagues ahead of anything else I have heard for streamed music. Was it worth the price? Well that depends on how deep your pockets are and how sensitive your ears are.

Is it worth upgrading the RCA interconnects? It's the same issues to decide upon really. I use Chord Sarum RCA but there is no way I would pay new price and I use two year old ones that I bought second hand. But that was only after I had the opportunity to demo them in my home.

Speaker cables, well you know what I am going to say (see above) but I have paid great attention to my speaker cables and they have made a big difference and which is all the more noticeable due to Dave. However in this case I made them myself. What are they? Sorry but they are so good I am probably going to start selling them so my lips are sealed!


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## DaveRedRef-III (Nov 8, 2017)

I have to say TU that I am a convert on how important the length and thickness of our speaker cables are in relation to SQ. I expected that shortening my cables would make a difference to clarity and presence but I was shocked by the level of change. I lopped 2m off my cables and this resulted in possibly the biggest single improvement in sound quality that I have experienced. Clarity and presence improved of course but the quality and separation it delivered in the bass was major. My problem (which has bugged me for years) of a dip in the upper mids simply disappeared perhaps because the speakers were now being driven properly. I run single amped cables to the speakers bass connectors and then use quality links to the mids and tweeter connectors. Shortening my speaker cables probably compensated a less than ideal arrangement. There is no question in my mind now that speaker cables are the most important connection in our systems and I can now see why so many exhibitors go bi-amped and shorten the speaker cables down to the shortest possible length. It’s a no brainer.


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## lennon909uk

I have a feeling I can make a huge gain from simply rectifying an earlier error of purchase.  I bought some signature cable that was 1 x 4m and the other 1.5.  I assume from the above post this is a huger error on my part?


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## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I have to say TU that I am a convert on how important the length and thickness of our speaker cables are to SQ. I expected that shortening my cables would make a difference to clarity and presence but I was shocked by the level of change. I lopped 2m off my cables and this resulted in possibly the biggest single improvement in sound quality that I have experienced. Clarity and presence improved of course but the quality and separation it delivered in the bass was major. My problem (which has bugged me for years) of a dip in the upper mids simply disappeared perhaps because the speakers were now being driven properly. I run single amped cables to the speakers bass connectors and then use quality links to the mids and tweeter connectors. Shortening my speaker cables probably compensated a less than ideal arrangement. There is no question in my mind now that speaker cables are the most important connection in our systems and I can now see why so many exhibitors go bi-amped and shorten the speaker cables down to the shortest possible length. It’s a no brainer.




Hey, you’ve seen the light! I agree 100%.


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## TheAttorney (Nov 12, 2017)

After being somewhat deflated recently by not loving the Blu2 enough to spend £8k on it, and still waiting forever for my Paul Hynes SR7 p/s to arrive, I needed a low cost distraction to cheer up my existing system in the meantime, so I bought some more ferrite cores for my USB cable.

From previous tests,  I've ended up with 8 x 7.5mm ferrites on my Supra ethernet cable, and 4 x 10.5mm ferrites on my fatter TQ Black Diamond USB cable. I've stuck with the pricier locking Wurth ferrites because their clearly stated impedance/frequency measurements are typically higher than others, and presumably _much_ higher than the cheapo Amazon/Ebay ones that don't state any measurements at all.

With each incremental addition, I thought there was a slight improvement to SQ, but nothing earth shattering and, with other variables involved, not completely conclusive for me. So far, so rather underwhelming.
Now I added a further 4 ferrites to the USB cable (not more because CPC had run out of stock). This time I was surprised at two levels:

Firstly, the SQ improvement was immediate and obvious.
Secondly, the improvements I particularly noticed were in the areas of clarity, focus and dynamics, rather than the "blacker blacks" type of change that I was expecting from noise reduction.

The extra clarity meant that I could now more easily notice differences when adjusting Fidelizer Pro and Process Lasso parameters on my W10 laptop. Which in turn meant I could now more easily dial in the sound characteristics I want from my source.

So I'm warming more to these ferrite little blighters. Although I still don't like the clunky aspect of heavy, ferrite-laden cables, the VFM aspect is now undeniable for me. So I'm aiming to get another 8 ferrites for the USB cable when they're back in stock. If that will double up the recent SQ improvement then I'll be well pleased.


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## Whazzzup

so many different ferrites each one blocking this and that fr, all at different price levels. maybe its a different forum question but does one get an assortment, particular fr...


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## marcmccalmont

Whazzzup said:


> so many different ferrites each one blocking this and that fr, all at different price levels. maybe its a different forum question but does one get an assortment, particular fr...


I have had very good luck with Topnisus clip on ferrites from Amazon you can order the diameter that fits your cable. They can be removed with your finger nail no key required and they are reasonably priced. Some argue that without published specifications beware Ferrites are cintered ferric oxide (rust) my guess is given a physical size and shape they filter about the same. I also recommend Clearer Audio digital cables their top of the line is the best I’ve heard


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## marcmccalmont

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I have to say TU that I am a convert on how important the length and thickness of our speaker cables are in relation to SQ. I expected that shortening my cables would make a difference to clarity and presence but I was shocked by the level of change. I lopped 2m off my cables and this resulted in possibly the biggest single improvement in sound quality that I have experienced. Clarity and presence improved of course but the quality and separation it delivered in the bass was major. My problem (which has bugged me for years) of a dip in the upper mids simply disappeared perhaps because the speakers were now being driven properly. I run single amped cables to the speakers bass connectors and then use quality links to the mids and tweeter connectors. Shortening my speaker cables probably compensated a less than ideal arrangement. There is no question in my mind now that speaker cables are the most important connection in our systems and I can now see why so many exhibitors go bi-amped and shorten the speaker cables down to the shortest possible length. It’s a no brainer.


There is a lot to properly engineering a speaker cable. DC resistance, AC impedance (usually overlooked but affects damping factor), dielectric, audible impurities and length. Shorter than 4 ft is important so they don’t become A.M. antennas So mono blocks are better way to go.


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## miketlse

TheAttorney said:


> After being somewhat deflated recently by not loving the Blu2 enough to spend £8k on it, and still waiting forever for my Paul Hynes SR7 p/s to arrive, I needed a low cost distraction to cheer up my existing system in the meantime, so I bought some more ferrite cores for my USB cable.
> 
> From previous tests,  I've ended up with 8 x 7.5mm ferrites on my Supra ethernet cable, and 4 x 10.5mm ferrites on my fatter TQ Black Diamond USB cable. I've stuck with the pricier locking Wurth ferrites because their clearly stated impedance/frequency measurements are typically higher than others, and presumably _much_ higher than the cheapo Amazon/Ebay ones that don't state any measurements at all.
> 
> ...


Interesting feedback.

Whenever i try and provide advice on this forum regarding RFI, my first question is usually 'have you tried adding a simple ferrite choke to your USB cable?'.
As you have discovered, it is cheap and easy to do, easy to remove if one discovers no benefit, and importantly much better value for money, than following some hifi assistants advice along the lines of 'sir now needs to add this top of the range usb interconnect from supplier X - it is only $800, and very good value for money'.
I have never experimented with using multiple ferrite chokes, each tuned to a different frequency, so I will remain a healthy sceptic, but always able to be persuaded by evidence.


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## rgs9200m

I've had very good results with Synergistic Research cables, especially the upper-level ones. 
For super-cheap speaker cables, Mogamis sound to me like they punch way above their bargain price range.


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## Jawed

TheAttorney said:


> Firstly, the SQ improvement was immediate and obvious.


Yes this was, for me, the big surprise: crossing a threshold, a WOW moment for me - going from 10 to 16 ferrites.



> Secondly, the improvements I particularly noticed were in the areas of clarity, focus and dynamics, rather than the "blacker blacks" type of change that I was expecting from noise reduction.


In my experience, you hear all of the noise that's in the recording more clearly with better hi-fi. But at the same time, there's a kind of "fuzz" that can be cleaned-up - there's increased purity in the sounds of instruments and voices, a loss of graininess and dynamics sound coherent over time instead of there being a-musical dynamic effects that, on reflection, seem to be literally random.

As the system gets better, the tiniest, most-nuanced aspects of performance, of musicianship, expression, interplay and harmony flow more easily into comprehension, emotional engagement and stimulation. This is the aspect that it can take hours or days to recognise, as the music has undergone a kind of heartfelt re-mastering, not just the technically better sound that one first notices with the upgrade.



> So I'm warming more to these ferrite little blighters. Although I still don't like the clunky aspect of heavy, ferrite-laden cables, the VFM aspect is now undeniable for me. So I'm aiming to get another 8 ferrites for the USB cable when they're back in stock. If that will double up the recent SQ improvement then I'll be well pleased.


If you've crossed the threshold (it seems like you have) then I'd expect the remaining changes to become subtle: musical changes and a quiet, tension-less, comprehension of the music. It'll be about a sense of ease, of effortlessness, and occasional little puzzles in your music collection will suddenly be resolved and you won't have had to have made any special effort.


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## Deftone

QED make the reference usb cable that has a ferrite jacket throughout the entire cable, might be something worth trying.


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## TheAttorney

Jawed said:


> Yes this was, for me, the big surprise: crossing a threshold, a WOW moment for me - going from 10 to 16 ferrites.
> If you've crossed the threshold (it seems like you have) then I'd expect the remaining changes to become subtle: musical changes and a quiet, tension-less, comprehension of the music. It'll be about a sense of ease, of effortlessness, and occasional little puzzles in your music collection will suddenly be resolved and you won't have had to have made any special effort.



My USB cable is between a microRendu 1.4 and an ISO Regen (which is directly conncted to DAVE via its short PCUSB hard connector). And also has a ethernet in the chain. All of these components, and DAVE's own galvanic isolation, claim to clean up noise. In IR's case, that is it's whole purpose of existance!. So it's not surprising that the threshold may be different in different circumstances. What _is_ surprising is that despite all these units in place, more improvement is still possible. As was noted a while back, these isolation devices aren't necessarily perfect. I recall Rob saying that DAVE's galvanic isolation does not extend as far as1Ghz (something like that). Whether that's important or not may depend on the exact circumstance, but PCs can push out an awful lot of noise, as demonstrated by that youtube video.



marcmccalmont said:


> I have had very good luck with Topnisus clip on ferrites from Amazon you can order the diameter that fits your cable. They can be removed with your finger nail no key required and they are reasonably priced. Some argue that without published specifications beware Ferrites are cintered ferric oxide (rust) my guess is given a physical size and shape they filter about the same.



I wouldn't be so sure that they're all much the same spec. Of the ones with published measurements, only a subset (including Wurth) claim to extend to 1Ghz. However, if you've got good results with these Topnisis ones, and one can get 10 for less than the price of 2 Wurths (comparing the bigger sizes), then I'm inclined to give these cheaper ones a go. Unfortunately, Topnisis don't do a size between 9mm and 13mm (10.5 mm is s perfect tight fit for my USB cable), but if I go for the 13mm ones they can also potentially be used for most mains cables.


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## marcmccalmont

TheAttorney said:


> My USB cable is between a microRendu 1.4 and an ISO Regen (which is directly conncted to DAVE via its short PCUSB hard connector). And also has a ethernet in the chain. All of these components, and DAVE's own galvanic isolation, claim to clean up noise. In IR's case, that is it's whole purpose of existance!. So it's not surprising that the threshold may be different in different circumstances. What _is_ surprising is that despite all these units in place, more improvement is still possible. As was noted a while back, these isolation devices aren't necessarily perfect. I recall Rob saying that DAVE's galvanic isolation does not extend as far as1Ghz (something like that). Whether that's important or not may depend on the exact circumstance, but PCs can push out an awful lot of noise, as demonstrated by that youtube video.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't be so sure that they're all much the same spec. Of the ones with published measurements, only a subset (including Wurth) claim to extend to 1Ghz. However, if you've got good results with these Topnisis ones, and one can get 10 for less than the price of 2 Wurths (comparing the bigger sizes), then I'm inclined to give these cheaper ones a go. Unfortunately, Topnisis don't do a size between 9mm and 13mm (10.5 mm is s perfect tight fit for my USB cable), but if I go for the 13mm ones they can also potentially be used for most mains cables.


I  had equally good luck with Yamay’s but of a different size, so cheap give them a try they have 9mm


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## Jawed

TheAttorney said:


> My USB cable is between a microRendu 1.4 and an ISO Regen (which is directly conncted to DAVE via its short PCUSB hard connector). And also has a ethernet in the chain. All of these components, and DAVE's own galvanic isolation, claim to clean up noise. In IR's case, that is it's whole purpose of existance!. So it's not surprising that the threshold may be different in different circumstances. What _is_ surprising is that despite all these units in place, more improvement is still possible.


If you don't get bored with adding ferrites, then it would be interesting to find out if the ISO Regen becomes redundant. I dare say we could start to talk about these devices as being equivalent to "4 ferrites" or whatever.

It's occurred to me that I could find out if the two Audioquest Jitterbugs I'm using are redundant. All of my tests have been with them present and in theory they should now be redundant...

Now playing: The Streets - Blinded by the Light


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## VisceriousZERO (Nov 15, 2017)

I just bought a Dave... Man this thing sings...

EDIT:
Few points:
The default installation of the chord drivers suck! I had to install the drivers from the main site to get it running smoothly. Also for those running Jriver, don't forget to activate Bitstreaming... Listening to DSD64 of Earth Wind and Fire on the Sennheiser Orpheus HEV-90! Fantastic!


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## Tiddlesworth

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-xilinx-epyc-server-fpga,35933.html

With this Rob can finally fulfill his life long dream of listening to a bajillion taps.


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## miketlse (Sep 6, 2020)

deleted


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## Deftone

Tiddlesworth said:


> http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-xilinx-epyc-server-fpga,35933.html
> 
> With this Rob can finally fulfill his life long dream of listening to a bajillion taps.



I thought the life long dream was 1 million taps. 

I don’t think 50 million taps is the way forward, would be interesting to see what other uses the power could be put to.


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## Rob Watts

Yes it was a million taps as I knew back in the 80's that we would need that to recover the transients to a guaranteed 16 bit accuracy. And of course, a million taps (back then) was completely impossible, and completely inconceivable that it would ever be possible; fortunately I was wrong about that prediction!


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## marcmccalmont

Rob Watts said:


> Yes it was a million taps as I knew back in the 80's that we would need that to recover the transients to a guaranteed 16 bit accuracy. And of course, a million taps (back then) was completely impossible, and completely inconceivable that it would ever be possible; fortunately I was wrong about that prediction!


Is there an optimum length hardware not being a limitation?


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## Rob Watts

I don't know - you could make a convincing argument that it's good enough for CD; but audio is strange - unless you do rigorous, controlled listening tests you really know nothing.

But Davina will tell us all - at least the scale of the problem, as I will publish tracks that are original, and then decimated and M scaled. So comparing the two files will tell me the size of the loss involved. I hope it's small...


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## musickid (Nov 16, 2017)

i am considering a dave in 2018. this is a big investment for me so is there any reason why someone in my position should wait to see the results of davina or am i getting my wires crossed here? thanks to all mk.

 the chord sound has really moved me emotionally closer to the music. i recently listened to dave/blu2 at sonority design in the midlands and was really astounded by what i heard through headphones and 80K American imported speakers the name brand i forget. the design of dave/blu2 deserves a commendation too in the cradle. what started out as a 1 hour visit ended up with me staying longer, listening to music and chatting to the owner for the best part of 5 hours. in addition i also learnt alot!! i will be returning to sonority design at some point on the invitation of the owner who is kindly going to guide me as i build my system.


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## Matez

musickid said:


> the chord sound has really moved me emotionally closer to the music.



That's what this hobby is all about


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## JaZZ

Rob Watts said:


> But Davina will tell us all - at least the scale of the problem, as I will publish tracks that are original, and then decimated and M scaled. So comparing the two files will tell me the size of the loss involved. I hope it's small...


Can't wait for your sample tracks, Rob!


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## tunes

Thinking about getting monitors to pair with Hugo 2 so wife can enjoy music without head phones. Eventually I'll get a DAVE + upscaler. Right now don't want to go the whole amp routine and stay under $3-4K. Don't know if 3 way powered speakers like Focal Shape 65 vs unpowered efficient monitors like the Omega Super Alnico Monitors makes better SQ. Anyone have a system they really like? Don't need to blast volume but don't want clipping at moderate levels. Room isopen and 18 x 15 feet. Plan to sitabout 5-6 feet away from monitors. 

Also need to know what cables to get from H2 to speakers.

Thanks for any help.


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## miketlse

tunes said:


> Thinking about getting monitors to pair with Hugo 2 so wife can enjoy music without head phones. Eventually I'll get a DAVE + upscaler. Right now don't want to go the whole amp routine and stay under $3-4K. Don't know if 3 way powered speakers like Focal Shape 65 vs unpowered efficient monitors like the Omega Super Alnico Monitors makes better SQ. Anyone have a system they really like? Don't need to blast volume but don't want clipping at moderate levels. Room isopen and 18 x 15 feet. Plan to sitabout 5-6 feet away from monitors.
> 
> Also need to know what cables to get from H2 to speakers.
> 
> Thanks for any help.


The Omega monitors get a great write-up in this review by @ray-dude , especially in direct driven mode. https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-hugo-2.22209/reviews#review-19435
An alternative is the KEF LS50 wireless.  @Peter Hyatt has just added a pair to his Hugo 2, and he describes the sound as "something special".


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## rayl

tunes said:


> Thinking about getting monitors to pair with Hugo 2 so wife can enjoy music without head phones. Eventually I'll get a DAVE + upscaler. Right now don't want to go the whole amp routine and stay under $3-4K. Don't know if 3 way powered speakers like Focal Shape 65 vs unpowered efficient monitors like the Omega Super Alnico Monitors makes better SQ. Anyone have a system they really like? Don't need to blast volume but don't want clipping at moderate levels. Room isopen and 18 x 15 feet. Plan to sitabout 5-6 feet away from monitors.
> 
> Also need to know what cables to get from H2 to speakers.
> 
> Thanks for any help.



For my nearfield set up (i.e. about 1 to 2 meters), I use Focal SM-9s.  Of the generally well regarded as high end nearfields, only the Focals and ATCs use an all analog signal path to my knowledge (I am guessing you don't want to have DSP in the chain given that's what you want Chord to be handling!). I love both brands for nearfield setups and took a long time to pick. I must've listened to Adele's Hello 100s of times (it was mastered on ATC SCM-50As, so I used the track as a reference of sorts).

While the Focal SM-9s (and the comparable ATC SCM-25As) are above that price range, the Focal Twin6 Be's are 3.8k/pair as I recall. I sold my Twins for the SM-9s not too long ago. I believe ATCs start in the 5-6k range for a pair. Focals generally have more extended low end, faster high end -- compared to more detailed mid-range for the ATCs -- at least that was my impression.

I can't yet speak from experience pairing with the DAVE as I'm still waiting for mine to arrive.... Reminds me, need to check status on the order as its ETA is in about 2 wks....

Hope this helps.


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## Muataz

tunes said:


> Thinking about getting monitors to pair with Hugo 2 so wife can enjoy music without head phones. Eventually I'll get a DAVE + upscaler. Right now don't want to go the whole amp routine and stay under $3-4K. Don't know if 3 way powered speakers like Focal Shape 65 vs unpowered efficient monitors like the Omega Super Alnico Monitors makes better SQ. Anyone have a system they really like? Don't need to blast volume but don't want clipping at moderate levels. Room isopen and 18 x 15 feet. Plan to sitabout 5-6 feet away from monitors.
> 
> Also need to know what cables to get from H2 to speakers.
> 
> Thanks for any help.



Benchmark AHB2 amplifier is the lowest distortion in the world like the Boulder 100k$ amp.


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## ray-dude

The Benchmark and the Omegas (with DAVE) are lovely, but a very small fraction of going direct from the DAVE to the Omegas.  It is absolutely stunning to me how even an amp as robust as the Benchmark can kill the Chord magic.  It makes me all the more excited for how transformational Rob's digital amp will be.


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## marcmccalmont

tunes said:


> Thinking about getting monitors to pair with Hugo 2 so wife can enjoy music without head phones. Eventually I'll get a DAVE + upscaler. Right now don't want to go the whole amp routine and stay under $3-4K. Don't know if 3 way powered speakers like Focal Shape 65 vs unpowered efficient monitors like the Omega Super Alnico Monitors makes better SQ. Anyone have a system they really like? Don't need to blast volume but don't want clipping at moderate levels. Room isopen and 18 x 15 feet. Plan to sitabout 5-6 feet away from monitors.
> 
> Also need to know what cables to get from H2 to speakers.
> 
> Thanks for any help.


Adam A7x great sound for the money works well with Hugo2!


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## rrolls

tunes said:


> Thinking about getting monitors to pair with Hugo 2 so wife can enjoy music without head phones. Eventually I'll get a DAVE + upscaler. Right now don't want to go the whole amp routine and stay under $3-4K. Don't know if 3 way powered speakers like Focal Shape 65 vs unpowered efficient monitors like the Omega Super Alnico Monitors makes better SQ. Anyone have a system they really like? Don't need to blast volume but don't want clipping at moderate levels. Room isopen and 18 x 15 feet. Plan to sitabout 5-6 feet away from monitors.
> 
> Also need to know what cables to get from H2 to speakers.
> 
> Thanks for any help.



My good friend and I have bought Omega Alnicos, he drives them successfully with Hugo2, and I drive them with Bludave as the second system. The purity of the sound and the huge stage are impressive, it is difficult and nearly impossible to return to a power amp. Because speaker cables are not more than 2m at the moment, I made up 2 sets with 0.5mm silver wire, 2 wires twisted with a drill. Then I soldered low mass rca plugs on the dac side and hollow bananas on the other. Our Omegas are bipolar, a second driver and 4 binding posts are on the back, so we can switch between 4 Ohm and 16Ohm.


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## tunes

Very cool.  How is the sub bass.  Do you think a sub is needed?

How do they compare to various powered monitors like the Focals?


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## tunes

When your DAVE arrives, let me know how it pairs with the Focal SM-9s.  What cables are you using from DAC to speakers?   Also, is a sub needed or is the bass extension adequate for most music??


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## rayl (Nov 19, 2017)

tunes said:


> When your DAVE arrives, let me know how it pairs with the Focal SM-9s.  What cables are you using from DAC to speakers?   Also, is a sub needed or is the bass extension adequate for most music??



I am deferring the serious cable experimentation until the DAVE arrives.

On sub -- the SM-9s are rated to 30Hz +/- 3dB, however, in both practice and measurement, I find it's really more like 40Hz.

In practice, while you can hear low notes (e.g. a good test is Boz Scagg's Thanks to You at around 26.5 seconds -- the final synthesizer note which is around 35Hz), you don't feel the rumble in your stomach. For this reason, I am not of the -- go unamped/no sub route.  I need the rumble.

As to measurement, I am providing an overlay of 2 SPL sine sweeps of 15Hz to 200Hz -- the red is with sub, the green w/o.  The absolute levels are a bit mismatched betw the 2 curves due to moving the mic while positioning the sub, but you can easily see the picture.  Again, this is pre-DAVE, but simple sine sweeps should not make a difference.

P.S. In interpreting these sweeps, I do have room modes at 47Hz and 120Hz that've been mitigated, but not eliminated, with about 90 Sabins of absorption.


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## rrolls

tunes said:


> Very cool.  How is the sub bass.  Do you think a sub is needed?
> How do they compare to various powered monitors like the Focals?



Powered monitors and subs have built in amps, you will destroy the purity a bit.
The Omega Alnico's resolution power is really amazing, even compared to my hornspeakers.


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## musicday

When used straight from Dave or even Hugo 2 you want very high efficiency speakers, 94 dB and above. With tower models been told that you don't really need a subwoofer as there is more bass in a larger cabinet.Even top range Omegas won't go down below 35 Hz, but is more down to listening setup, and speaker build, rather then numbers.
Is always worth listening first if possible, to know if the sound suits your needs


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## ecwl

I think to get the most out of Chord DACs with active speakers, the active speaker should not do DSP or digital crossover because that inevitably means the speakers use their own internal ADC and DACs. Moreover, I don’t think pairing Chord DACs with class D amplifiers are ideal. As Rob Watts has said in the past, class D amplifiers switch at most at 4-500kHz whereas Chord DACs switch at 104MHz and first stage upsampling goes to 768kHz. Using class D amplifiers loses some of the benefits of improved transient timing from the Chord DACs. I actually think that’s why even though Chord DAVE measured great by John Atkinson at Stereophile, he didn’t go wild about the DAC because he paired it with class D amplifiers. That’s why he thought DAVE sounded similar to other high-end DACs.


----------



## ray-dude

tunes said:


> Very cool.  How is the sub bass.  Do you think a sub is needed?
> 
> How do they compare to various powered monitors like the Focals?



With the Omega SAMs I found the low end surprisingly good (rated low 40s but placement matters)  we found listening to them by themselves completely acceptable. However, when we kicked in my JL Audio f112v2 (low pass at ~45Hz, level set to match the omegas, driven straight from DAVE xlr outputs), it added the something extra that made it a no compromise setup

When our Omega Compact Audio Monitors get here, I’m looking forward to offloading the bass from the Omegas even more, and seeing how that mix impacts the sound. My hypothesis is that more focus for the Omegas on the mids and highs will improve sound more than any loss of the Chord magic below 50Hz with the sub, but we’ll see

This driving high efficiency speakers direct from DAVE is a new world for me. Any other high efficiency speakers out there that take what the Omegas can do and elevates even higher?


----------



## tunes

rrolls said:


> Our Omegas are bipolar, a second driver and 4 binding posts are on the back, so we can switch between 4 Ohm and 16Ohm.


What does the above mean and are there commercially made speaker cables terminated as you describe for those of us not able to make our own.   Which Omega towers have best synergy with Chord DACs?


----------



## musicday

ray-dude said:


> With the Omega SAMs I found the low end surprisingly good (rated low 40s but placement matters)  we found listening to them by themselves completely acceptable. However, when we kicked in my JL Audio f112v2 (low pass at ~45Hz, level set to match the omegas, driven straight from DAVE xlr outputs), it added the something extra that made it a no compromise setup
> 
> When our Omega Compact Audio Monitors get here, I’m looking forward to offloading the bass from the Omegas even more, and seeing how that mix impacts the sound. My hypothesis is that more focus for the Omegas on the mids and highs will improve sound more than any loss of the Chord magic below 50Hz with the sub, but we’ll see
> 
> This driving high efficiency speakers direct from DAVE is a new world for me. Any other high efficiency speakers out there that take what the Omegas can do and elevates even higher?


Is good to check them out as better or not alternative to Omegas :
http://www.decware.com/newsite/HDT.html


----------



## musicday

tunes said:


> What does the above mean and are there commercially made speaker cables terminated as you describe for those of us not able to make our own.   Which Omega towers have best synergy with Chord DACs?


According to Louis X8RS towers.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Nov 20, 2017)

musicday said:


> Is good to check them out as better or not alternative to Omegas :
> http://www.decware.com/newsite/HDT.html



I would be very suspicious of that ‘ruler’ flat frequency graph tbh. In the history of speaker design no speaker designer has ever been remotely close to that graph. When people say a speaker is flat in the response it is relative. Then you have to consider the off axis 15/30/45 degree measurements because unless you have exceptional room acoustic treatment, what you will hear is a median of all those responses. Tests by Revel have shown that just 14% of the ‘on-axis’ firing makes up our brains understanding of a speakers sound characteristic. The remainder is significantly influenced by short and long reflections. This is how our brains recreate the space. If you think about it firing sound directly at you for acoustic instruments is not natural. Only absolute SotA speakers have designs which come relatively close to linear in that on-axis, off-axis test. Having said that, one exception I have come across which approaches the problem from a different design strategy is MBL’s 360-degree-radiating omnidirectional spheres. This is an interesting concept because it fires in ‘all’ directions just as an acoustic instrument does. It has the unique benefit of providing a frequency signature which is consistent on all axis’. So as long as the frequency signature is relatively flat, that is what your brain will tell you. It has the added benefit that it performs better and is more believable as a performance ‘without’ room acoustic treatment (apart from maybe a little bass control if needed). I have yet to have a home demo but I have read it is very like listening to live music.

To return to that flat line frequency signature above, it highlights to me that the comments attributed to the speaker should equally be read with a large dose of cynicism.


----------



## rrolls

tunes said:


> What does the above mean and are there commercially made speaker cables terminated as you describe for those of us not able to make our own.   Which Omega towers have best synergy with Chord DACs?


We ordered Super Alnico tower's first, then I noticed that their impedance is too low for Hugo2/Dave. Louis recommended a solution with one driver on the back, and both chassis have their own binding posts. Finally we decided to have the chassis on the wide panels, similar to the Junior's. Regarding the cables I would look for someone with soldering skills. Start with a thin enamelled copper wire (low mass!!).


----------



## Triode User

If the new Chord digital amps turn out just to be a more powerful version of the Dave amps then driving speakers direct from Dave may be a temporary distraction.


rrolls said:


> We ordered Super Alnico tower's first, then I noticed that their impedance is too low for Hugo2/Dave. Louis recommended a solution with one driver on the back, and both chassis have their own binding posts. Finally we decided to have the chassis on the wide panels, similar to the Junior's. Regarding the cables I would look for someone with soldering skills. Start with a thin enamelled copper wire (low mass!!).



What do you mean by "_Start with a thin enamelled copper wire (low mass!!)_." ?
and why are you suggesting a low mass wire?


----------



## musicday

rrolls said:


> We ordered Super Alnico tower's first, then I noticed that their impedance is too low for Hugo2/Dave. Louis recommended a solution with one driver on the back, and both chassis have their own binding posts. Finally we decided to have the chassis on the wide panels, similar to the Junior's. Regarding the cables I would look for someone with soldering skills. Start with a thin enamelled copper wire (low mass!!).


What impedance was too low for Hugo2/Dave? You mean 6 ohm? Best results should be with 8 ohm. Please add some photos of your setup, i would like to see Omega speakers driven by Dave.


----------



## rrolls (Nov 20, 2017)

musicday said:


> What impedance was too low for Hugo2/Dave? You mean 6 ohm? Best results should be with 8 ohm. Please add some photos of your setup, i would like to see Omega speakers driven by Dave.


I remember Robert Watts saying that we should not go below 8 Ohms, so the drivers are series connected. You see 2 different setups, one with Hugo2, the other with DAVE. It is a test set up, you still see the horns in the back, but when the Omegas play, the soundstage is huge, as far as the window, and you think the horns are playing. It is a joy to use the Blu2, because it is possible to connect the 25 years old Teac P2s, and I have not found a clear difference yet. The other drive is a Lampizator modified Denon DVD drive with a SPdif tube output, still no difference.


----------



## christianicon

I have tried the Dave with the Utopia, and it really sound amazing! I’ve never thought that dac/amp could make sound really different! 
But stax 009 with the newest stax t8000 , sound a little bit better i think


----------



## musicday

christianicon said:


> I have tried the Dave with the Utopia, and it really sound amazing! I’ve never thought that dac/amp could make sound really different!
> But stax 009 with the newest stax t8000 , sound a little bit better i think


They both really good in my opinion, but Chord Dave is something special with Focal Utopia.


----------



## aldavey

christianicon said:


> I have tried the Dave with the Utopia, and it really sound amazing! I’ve never thought that dac/amp could make sound really different!
> But stax 009 with the newest stax t8000 , sound a little bit better i think


Suggest you try the 009s with a KG amp. The t8000 does not do justice to the 009s. A KGSShv Carbon with 009s and Dave must be near perfection.


----------



## christianicon

aldavey said:


> Suggest you try the 009s with a KG amp. The t8000 does not do justice to the 009s. A KGSShv Carbon with 009s and Dave must be near perfection.



Have you tried the newest amp from Stax, the T8000? 
It cost $7000 i think, and Stax made it special for the 009


----------



## aldavey

Yes, I'm aware of the 8000, but it has been a disappointment when compared to KG designs. I suggest you search the Stax thread here and at the other place for more confirmation of this. You might also like to check out this site: http://www.mjolnir-audio.com He builds some of the best Stax amps available and I believe reviewed the t8000 and has one for sale.


----------



## MacedonianHero (Nov 21, 2017)

aldavey said:


> Yes, I'm aware of the 8000, but it has been a disappointment when compared to KG designs. I suggest you search the Stax thread here and at the other place for more confirmation of this. You might also like to check out this site: http://www.mjolnir-audio.com He builds some of the best Stax amps available and I believe reviewed the t8000 and has one for sale.



Sorry, but he asked if you tried it? Curious if you have?


----------



## aldavey

Yes, I have. I live in Tokyo so was able to hear locally with my 009s.


----------



## MacedonianHero

aldavey said:


> Yes, I have. I live in Tokyo so was able to hear locally with my 009s.



Cool...thanks


----------



## Christer

rrolls said:


> I remember Robert Watts saying that we should not go below 8 Ohms, so the drivers are series connected. You see 2 different setups, one with Hugo2, the other with DAVE. It is a test set up, you still see the horns in the back, but when the Omegas play, the soundstage is huge, as far as the window, and you think the horns are playing. It is a joy to use the Blu2, because it is possible to connect the 25 years old Teac P2s, and I have not found a clear difference yet. The other drive is a Lampizator modified Denon DVD drive with a SPdif tube output, still no difference.



The BLU2/HUGO " is a combo I would also like to hear. But why are you keeping your HUGO 2 on top of your speakers????


----------



## tunes

So is there a consensus, Rob included, for the best overall speakers to pair with the DAVE and/or HIUGO 2 for direct pure SQ at moderate listening levels near field???


----------



## musicday

tunes said:


> So is there a consensus, Rob included, for the best overall speakers to pair with the DAVE and/or HIUGO 2 for direct pure SQ at moderate listening levels near field???


From my understanding and own experience if you have high sensitivity speakers like Decware, Omega or other similar one in the region of 94+ dB @ 8 ohm Hugo 2 drive them okay, not very loud but enough for moderate listening levels, where Dave will do so much better because of the higher 2 watts output.
Always is best to try before buy, but sometimes if you read good reviews is more then enough for the above mentioned products.
So moderate listening levels near field both Hugo 2 and Dave paired directly with speakers will give you fantastic sound, that cannot be reproduced by any headphones in my opinion.


----------



## aldavey

musicday said:


> From my understanding and own experience if you have high sensitivity speakers like Decware, Omega or other similar one in the region of 94+ dB @ 8 ohm Hugo 2 drive them okay, not very loud but enough for moderate listening levels, where Dave will do so much better because of the higher 2 watts output.
> Always is best to try before buy, but sometimes if you read good reviews is more then enough for the above mentioned products.
> So moderate listening levels near field both Hugo 2 and Dave paired directly with speakers will give you fantastic sound, that cannot be reproduced by any headphones in my opinion.


Each to his own. Pairing Stax 009s, KGSShv Carbon and H2 will be pretty, pretty difficult to beat with speakers, and the X-PHD with H2 is the reason IMHO.


----------



## tunes

Does Decware make a full size speaker??  Floor standing?  Is Omega better??


----------



## musicday (Nov 22, 2017)

tunes said:


> Does Decware make a full size speaker??  Floor standing?  Is Omega better??


From my research, keep in mind that I have never heard neither, Omega seem superior, and Louis the CEO is a great guy to discuss with. And yes Decware does make full size tower speakers.
http://www.decware.com/newsite/speakers.html


----------



## rrolls (Nov 22, 2017)

musicday said:


> From my understanding and own experience if you have high sensitivity speakers like Decware, Omega or other similar one in the region of 94+ dB @ 8 ohm Hugo 2 drive them okay, not very loud but enough for moderate listening levels, where Dave will do so much better because of the higher 2 watts output.
> Always is best to try before buy, but sometimes if you read good reviews is more then enough for the above mentioned products.
> So moderate listening levels near field both Hugo 2 and Dave paired directly with speakers will give you fantastic sound, that cannot be reproduced by any headphones in my opinion.


Our daily experience with Hugo2 or DAVE is different, I would like to clarfiy this, otherwise people may think that it is sounds like you have put the handbrake.
No, both Hugo and DAVE can go very loud with our Omegas (97db), we tried it the first evening, when 
my good friend had just bought Hugo2 (look above for the walnut Omegas test setup), and after a couple of minutes we had to lower the volume, the room is about 50m2. And there is more:
The sound does not get congested at higher volumes, I have not heard them running out of steam yet. Of course it is not a party combo. As soon as there are more than a few people talking in the same room, they will not suffice. And by the way, the sound is so rich with timbre, you do not have to turn up the volume to compensate for the missing quality.  Using the word "nearfield" does not say anything here. You can see that the speaker setup is nearfield in the photo (maple Omegas), because distance to the speakers is less than a couple of meters, but the soundfield expands to the window in the back, I have yet to compare this with the horns (105db).
I strongly hope that more people have a chance to listen to it. And last my personal opinion: The wizard is the Blu2 with its double coax, I could not live just with DAVE any more.


----------



## miketlse

I get the impression that What HiFi like the Blu 2.


----------



## musicday

miketlse said:


> I get the impression that What HiFi like the Blu 2.


Nice, thanks for the link and quite fresh also 22.11


----------



## Deftone

miketlse said:


> I get the impression that What HiFi like the Blu 2.



They sure do love to use the word sense.


----------



## tunes

I have heard amazing things about Omega speakers but concerned that my love of headphones will spoil a less detailed high frequency response with a single driver speaker without a tweeter.  Is there enough upper range clarity, sparkle and shimmer to compete with speakers using ribbon or dome tweeters??



Our daily experience with Hugo2 or DAVE is different, I would like to clarfiy this, otherwise people may think that it is sounds like you have put the handbrake.
No, both Hugo and DAVE can go very loud with our Omegas (97db), we tried it the first evening, when
my good friend had just bought Hugo2 (look above for the walnut Omegas test setup), and after a couple of minutes we had to lower the volume, the room is about 50m2. And there is more:
The sound does not get congested at higher volumes, I have not heard them running out of steam yet. Of course it is not a party combo. As soon as there are more than a few people talking in the same room, they will not suffice. And by the way, the sound is so rich with timbre, you do not have to turn up the volume to compensate for the missing quality.  Using the word "nearfield" does not say anything here. You can see that the speaker setup is nearfield in the photo (maple Omegas), because distance to the speakers is less than a couple of meters, but the soundfield expands to the window in the back, I have yet to compare this with the horns (105db).
I strongly hope that more people have a chance to listen to it. And last my personal opinion: The wizard is the Blu2 with its double coax, I could not live just with DAVE any more.[/QUOTE]


----------



## GryphonGuy

Deftone said:


> They sure do love to use the word sense.



3 times. Based on usage, they love DAVE more (7 times on page) and blu even more (11 times on page).

Regards
GG


----------



## musicday

GryphonGuy said:


> 3 times. Based on usage, they love DAVE more (7 times on page) and blu even more (11 times on page).
> 
> Regards
> GG


I will love Dave more when I will own it


----------



## Matez

miketlse said:


> The Omega monitors get a great write-up in this review by @ray-dude , especially in direct driven mode. https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-hugo-2.22209/reviews#review-19435
> An alternative is the KEF LS50 wireless.  @Peter Hyatt has just added a pair to his Hugo 2, and he describes the sound as "something special".



In their price range, LS50 does sound awesome indeed.


----------



## aldavey (Nov 26, 2017)

Matez said:


> In their price range, LS50 does sound awesome indeed.


My understanding is that connecting an external DAC - H2, Dave - will provide no benefit as the LS50 wireless internal DACs will be the final link in the digital chain.
This also applies to the aux input as anything connected to this input also goes through the LS50's digital conversion.


----------



## musicday

aldavey said:


> My understanding is that connecting an external DAC - H2, Dave - will provide no benefit as the LS50 wireless internal DACs will be the final link in the digital chain.
> This also applies to the aux input as anything connected to this input also goes through the LS50's digital conversion.


I think that you are right. To benefit from the high quality sound output of Hugo 2/Dave you need to connect high sensitivity speakers direct, so you get best possible sound, without any alterations.


----------



## Christer

GryphonGuy said:


> 3 times. Based on usage, they love DAVE more (7 times on page) and blu even more (11 times on page).
> 
> Regards
> GG


But they also briefly mentioned the weird loading mechanism of BLU 2 which reminds me personally of my mum's  waffle iron lid from the fifties and is about as sophisticated to use as one of those.


----------



## Christer

Matez said:


> In their price range, LS50 does sound awesome indeed.


 I am  pretty sure it does, without having heard it yet. The  passive predecessor is one of the best bookshelf speakers on the market.Nevertheless quite interesting to read about people who used to rave about the SQ of HUGO 2  and very  aggressively defend its against any criticism,now raving about the inbuilt DAC in their active speakers.
Possibly without even knowing they are doing so before it's been pointed out to them.


----------



## Triode User

aldavey said:


> My understanding is that connecting an external DAC - H2, Dave - will provide no benefit as the LS50 wireless internal DACs will be the final link in the digital chain.
> This also applies to the aux input as anything connected to this input also goes through the LS50's digital conversion.



I have not listened to the LS50 apart from briefly at a Hi Fi  show but I don't think your statement is entirely correct. Others have said that the essential character of the Chord DACs still comes through despite the LS50 ADC / DAC processes.


----------



## Triode User

musicday said:


> I think that you are right. To benefit from the high quality sound output of Hugo 2/Dave you need to connect high sensitivity speakers direct, so you get best possible sound, without any alterations.



Well high sensitivity speakers direct may be one option but it is not the only one and some will say that in many ways it is easily bettered by having a high quality external amp and speakers that can then be driven by that amp. 

Then you can hear REAL music, not that flimsy stuff that you direct guys like!


----------



## aldavey

Triode User said:


> I have not listened to the LS50 apart from briefly at a Hi Fi  show but I don't think your statement is entirely correct. Others have said that the essential character of the Chord DACs still comes through despite the LS50 ADC / DAC processes.


Well as always your YMMV, here is a link to where I'm coming from http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/01/between-ad-and-da-the-power-of-pragmatism
I have both H2 and LS50Ws. For me the H2 makes no difference to the already wonderful LS50's. However my Stax 009s / KGSShv Carbon H2 is for me SOTA.


----------



## Malcyg

aldavey said:


> Well as always your YMMV, here is a link to where I'm coming from http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/01/between-ad-and-da-the-power-of-pragmatism
> I have both H2 and LS50Ws. For me the H2 makes no difference to the already wonderful LS50's. However my Stax 009s / KGSShv Carbon H2 is for me SOTA.



I agree with the general thrust of the article, but isn’t the article saying that the Hugo character should be maintained?

‘In real-world listening tests, the Mojo’s clean-and-lean personality is maintained by the KEF LS50 Wireless’ signal path’.


----------



## ecwl

I don’t have KEF LS50 Wireless. But I do have a pair of Paradigm Shift speakers which work on similar principals of ADC, DSP, DAC, class D amp. I can directly hook up my Airport Express DAC/headphone jack to the Paradigm Shift or I can hook it up to the Mojo via Toslink and hook up Mojo to the Shift. It is true that the sound is better with Mojo. However, if I were to directly plug my headphones into the Airport Express Vs Mojo, I hear a significantly improved performance compared to the difference I hear through the speakers. 
I’ve also compared Oppo BDP105 player DAC vs Mojo into a Class D amp at a friend’s place and once again Mojo sounded better but when my friend upgraded to a class A/B amp, the Mojo sounded significantly better compared to the BDP105.


----------



## Malcyg

I bought a pair of AKG N90 Q headphones some while ago to use with my Mojo and in anticipation of the Poly which was some way down the road at that point. They fitted the bill and reviews were very good and, since they were available at half price, I decided to get a pair. They have a built in DAC as well which I thought could be quite useful for using with just my phone. When they arrived, I connected my phone by USB and was a bit disappointed as I didn’t much like the sound signature which seemed a bit thin and sharp to me. Fortunately, when I plugged the analogue cable into the Mojo, I much preferred the sound which was very different to the inbuilt DAC in isolation.

The phones have EQ and surround sound type options, so the Mojo must presumably be going through the inbuilt DAC which worried me, but it still sounds very much like being plugged directly into Mojo, which pleasantly surprised me. This seems consistent with Darko’s findings in the article posted above. Whilst they cannot compare to HE-1000 V2 plugged into BluDave, that’s not why I got them and they are actually pretty decent phones for a knockabout portable pair and very good value if you can get them at half price.


----------



## ecwl

Malcyg said:


> The phones have EQ and surround sound type options, so the Mojo must presumably be going through the inbuilt DAC which worried me, but it still sounds very much like being plugged directly into Mojo, which pleasantly surprised me.


There’s no doubt ADC’s can take advantage of Mojo because you’re still getting the better upsampling from Mojo and all the systems we’ve talked about (Paradigm, KEF, AKG) run their ADC at 96kHz. I would never discourage anyone to buy a Chord DAC if they use ADCs or Class D amplifiers down their audio chain, as long as they’re happy with the audio upgrade.


----------



## tunes

I am not sure what the significance is for the comment " The wizard is the Blu2 with its double coax, I could not live just with DAVE any more."

Many of us are waiting for an upscaler without a CD transport or a DAVE with the additional taps since hard drive storage of ripped CDs has become so convenient along with Hi Res download availability. 



rrolls said:


> Our daily experience with Hugo2 or DAVE is different, I would like to clarfiy this, otherwise people may think that it is sounds like you have put the handbrake.
> No, both Hugo and DAVE can go very loud with our Omegas (97db), we tried it the first evening, when
> my good friend had just bought Hugo2 (look above for the walnut Omegas test setup), and after a couple of minutes we had to lower the volume, the room is about 50m2. And there is more:
> The sound does not get congested at higher volumes, I have not heard them running out of steam yet. Of course it is not a party combo. As soon as there are more than a few people talking in the same room, they will not suffice. And by the way, the sound is so rich with timbre, you do not have to turn up the volume to compensate for the missing quality.  Using the word "nearfield" does not say anything here. You can see that the speaker setup is nearfield in the photo (maple Omegas), because distance to the speakers is less than a couple of meters, but the soundfield expands to the window in the back, I have yet to compare this with the horns (105db).
> I strongly hope that more people have a chance to listen to it. And last my personal opinion: The wizard is the Blu2 with its double coax, I could not live just with DAVE any more.


----------



## musicday

Did anyone tried Dave with Blu2 with headphones? How much improvement is over just Dave.Thanks.


----------



## Malcyg (Nov 26, 2017)

musicday said:


> Did anyone tried Dave with Blu2 with headphones? How much improvement is over just Dave.Thanks.



BluDave with HE-1000 V2 sounds incredible. I prefer speakers generally, but that combination blew me away and is the best I have ever heard headphones sound. Compared with Dave - not a fair comparison really. There has been a lot of feedback of that type on the Blu II thread. Also, Blu II trade reviews generally review Blu II with Dave and make reference to the Dave alone. That sort of feedback may be better than biased feedback from BluDave owners!


----------



## jlbrach

musicday said:


> Did anyone tried Dave with Blu2 with headphones? How much improvement is over just Dave.Thanks.



i use my dave/blu2 with my Abyss Phi and LCD-4 and it is glorious...simple as that


----------



## TheAttorney (Nov 27, 2017)

marcmccalmont said:


> I have had very good luck with Topnisus clip on ferrites from Amazon you can order the diameter that fits your cable. They can be removed with your finger nail no key required and they are reasonably priced. Some argue that without published specifications beware Ferrites are cintered ferric oxide (rust) my guess is given a physical size and shape they filter about the same. I also recommend Clearer Audio digital cables their top of the line is the best I’ve heard



An update on my ferrite-fi journey:
A couple of weeks ago, I ordered 13 x 8mm ferrites to fit my USB cable from Amazon uk for under £7 including delivery (high end pricing gone mad!). But I hadn't anticipated that the delivery was to be via a slow boat from China,so whilst still waiting for that, I ordered various size Topnisus ferrites, which cost a a bit more, but were delivered from UK within 2 days. These to be added to my ethernet and power cables (no Topnisus sizes were ideal for my USB cable thickness). There seems to be all sorts of brand names for these cheaper ferrites - my guess is that they all come from much the same mass production lines in China.

So, to my existing setup of 8 Wurth ferrites on each of my USB and ethernet cables, I added a further 8 Topnisus ferrites on my ethernet cable (total now 16), plus 4 ferrites to DAVE's power cord (in addition to the 2 ferrites built-in to this Clearer Audio power cord). I wasn't sure if further ferrite improvements were possible after my last Wow moment, but I was pleasantly surprised to find that the improvements were immediately apparent: yet more focus and detail whilst at the same time more natural and effortless. Apart from the extra weight and clunkiness on my cables, there is no downside to this SQ improvement. I'm now a full ferrite convert and declare these little blighters to be the best VFM upgrades of all time. Ever. Previous title holders were audiphile fuses and later my Supra CAT 8. But pound for pound, the ferrites easily take over that title. Can't wait for the slow boat from China to arrive.

As my system has improved recently (including the ISORegen still in place and mR v1.4 clock upgrade), my reaction to some DAVE functions has shifted:

1. I'm a big fan of the cross-feed function, particularly for HEK V2's, my preferred setting being CF=2, and I never quite undesrtood why some eminent headfiers liked CF=3. Well now I prefer CF=3 as well, although any CF value is miles better than none at all for the HEK V2's

2. I've always fussed over the Phase switch. Now I don't worry about it so much. I can still tell which phase is which, but the wrong phase doesn't now bother me as much, because both ways sound better than they used to. BTW, my albums are now tagged at over 10:1 in favour of Positive phase.

3. I've always preferred HF Filter Off, and I still do, but now I'm less bothered by the slight dulling effect of Filter On, and might even prefer that on my brightest recordings.


----------



## STR-1

TheAttorney said:


> So, to my existing setup of 8 Wurth ferrites on each of my USB and ethernet cables, I added a further 8 Topnisus ferrites on my ethernet cable (total now 16), plus 4 ferrites to DAVE's power cord (in addition to the 2 ferrites built-in to this Clearer Audio power cord). I wasn't sure if further ferrite improvements were possible after my last Wow moment, but I was pleasantly surprised to find that the improvements were immediately apparent: yet more focus and detail whilst at the same time more natural and effortless.


Hi Attorney.  How long are the usb and ethernet cables that each have sixteen ferrites?  Do you fit the ferrites equal distances apart along the length of the cable, or focus mostly on the downstream end of each cable?  

I’ve got several Wirth ferrites on three Supra Cat8 cables - four on a 1m cable between  NAS and switch, six on a 1m cable between switch and upstream fmc, and four on a 0.5 cable between downstrean fmc and mRendu 1.4.  I might try a few more.


----------



## Sonic77

I recommend you also wear them around your neck as they will make you more attractive.


----------



## Jawed

STR-1 said:


> Hi Attorney.  How long are the usb and ethernet cables that each have sixteen ferrites?  Do you fit the ferrites equal distances apart along the length of the cable, or focus mostly on the downstream end of each cable?
> 
> I’ve got several Wirth ferrites on three Supra Cat8 cables - four on a 1m cable between  NAS and switch, six on a 1m cable between switch and upstream fmc, and four on a 0.5 cable between downstrean fmc and mRendu 1.4.  I might try a few more.


I suggest you put all 14 of your ferrites on the USB cable that's plugged into DAVE. Place them so that they are all close together at the end which plugs into DAVE.

If your USB cable isn't long enough to fit all of them, you might like to conduct an experiment to compare:

your short USB cable with as many ferrites as will fit

the USB cable that came with DAVE, with all 14 ferrites
Now playing: The Fall - Cruisers Creek


----------



## TheAttorney

My 1M USB cable has only 8 ferrites (slow boat remember). For practical reasons they're roughly in the middle (so they don't pull apart the tiny and lightweight ISORegen.
My 2M Supra has 16 ferrites roughly in the middle (so they don't pull apart the tiny and lightweight  microRendu). 

Also have 2 ferrites on my Anker USB3->Ethernet dongle. I've just realised this is Gigabit spec, so wonder if this in itself could be causing RFI in the GHz range? (i.e. where DAVE's galvanic isolation does not reach).

When my system is settled and I stop mucking around with cables, I'll try placing the ferrites as close as possible to the desintaion ends.


----------



## STR-1

Jawed said:


> I suggest you put all 14 of your ferrites on the USB cable that's plugged into DAVE. Place them so that they are all close together at the end which plugs into DAVE.
> 
> If your USB cable isn't long enough to fit all of them, you might like to conduct an experiment to compare:
> 
> ...


I would put some on the USB cable if I was using one, but I’m using two USPCBS - between mRendu/ISO Regen and between IR/DAVE


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## Jawed

STR-1 said:


> I would put some on the USB cable if I was using one, but I’m using two USPCBS - between mRendu/ISO Regen and between IR/DAVE


Aha, not come across those things before, I thought it was just a fancy cable. Well, I suppose this is going to be a tough sell: try a USB cable instead with all 14 ferrites, between IR and DAVE.

Now playing: Throwing Muses - Ellen West


----------



## GryphonGuy

TheAttorney said:


> 1. I'm a big fan of the cross-feed function, particularly for HEK V2's, my preferred setting being CF=2, and I never quite undesrtood why some eminent headfiers liked CF=3. Well now I prefer CF=3 as well, although any CF value is miles better than none at all for the HEK V2's



I never used to be a fan of Cross-feed on the DAVE whilst everything was running in. Now that Uptopia, MicroRendu, DAVE, power and cables have all been bedded down, I really appreciate the soundstage depth that cross-feed on DAVE gives me. I still maintain that the sounds are not as pure with crossfeed on but after just a minute or two of brain processing, the complete depth of the soundstage, the rock-solid and pin-point stability of instruments and voices in the soundstage are so much better with cross-feed on.

My perception CF2 is that the soundstage is a narrow "V" meaning that the centre stage is pushed to the front and the rest is way back and nothing much in between. The sounds on the side are very much lost in the stage with little placement information. CF3 seems to map the entire width of the soundstage with a more natural sounding depth and every sound maps into the depth perception and is placed with pin-point stability and very little brain power required to interpret.

Going back to no cross-feed, I can immediately feel my brain processing requirements going up and the presentation is relatively flat.

Studio albums that have been piecemeal recorded with one or more tracks recorded at different time or even places, stand out in cross-feed mode as the sounds, whilst rock-solid in space and time, can be very different to the rest of the session recording.

CF3 seems to rock my world now. I only use CF2 when a really compressed and flat pop-song album is played where it is nice to have the lead singer (like Adele) stand slightly in front of the music. CF1 does nothing for me in my set-up.

How things change or is it how I've changed?

Regards
GG


----------



## musicday

Anyone using Oppo UPD205 with Dave? Any benefits over other CD transports?


----------



## Matez

aldavey said:


> My understanding is that connecting an external DAC - H2, Dave - will provide no benefit as the LS50 wireless internal DACs will be the final link in the digital chain.
> This also applies to the aux input as anything connected to this input also goes through the LS50's digital conversion.



On a side note, if I had money to spend on DAVE, I'd get myself something even nicer than LS50. Just saying. With all due respect to these speakers, they don't scale this well.


----------



## Muataz

Matez said:


> On a side note, if I had money to spend on DAVE, I'd get myself something even nicer than LS50. Just saying. With all due respect to these speakers, they don't scale this well.



With Dave these speaker LS50 is not what Dave deserve, If someone want something cheap a Tekton impacts monitor could be a good start and very sensitive.


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## marcmccalmont (Nov 28, 2017)

musicday said:


> Anyone using Oppo UPD205 with Dave? Any benefits over other CD transports?


The ProJect CD Box RS and Pro-ject power box RS Uni 1-Way is much better! Even better than my MSB CDIV it’s probably the best transport out there


----------



## musicday

marcmccalmont said:


> The ProJect CD Box RS and Pro-ject power box RS Uni 1-Way is much better! Even better than my MSB CDIV it’s probably the best transport out there


Why exactly, explain please. Also the playback format is quite limited.


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## marcmccalmont (Nov 29, 2017)

musicday said:


> Why exactly, explain please. Also the playback format is quite limited.


2 ps jitter! Phase noise -170 db!!!!
Which makes it the best transport to date! Stunning with Hugo2 or Dave.


----------



## Christer

marcmccalmont said:


> 2 ps jitter! Phase noise -170 db!!!!
> Which makes it the best transport to date! Stunning with Hugo2 or Dave.


Interesting to hear.
And in comparison to BLU2?
Will the Project also make rbcd  musically enjoyable to a similar or even higher degree than BLU2?
I have only seen pics of the Project combo  online, but it seems they have gone for a somewhat smarter disc  loading solution than a clunky waffle iron lid anyway.
But as always the proof of the pudding is in the eating. And I have to admit that so far, BLU2/DAVE is the only combo that has made rbcd  quite enjoyable for me.
Not as good as hi res files IMO. But better than any other rbcd playing system I have auditioned.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Christer said:


> Interesting to hear.
> And in comparison to BLU2?
> Will the Project also make rbcd  musically enjoyable to a similar or even higher degree than BLU2?
> I have only seen pics of the Project combo  online, but it seems they have gone for a somewhat smarter disc  loading solution than a clunky waffle iron lid anyway.
> ...


A friend of mine preferred the ProJect Hugo2 to a Blu2/Dave in his system I will have my ProJect next month and will do some comparisons. My friend did not add ferrites to the clearer audio cables between Blu2 and Dave which is it’s Achilles heal because it was a dealer demo, so the Blu2/Dave was not optimized. I will try all combinations and report back but one thing is for sure if you are on a budget a ProJect/Clearer Audio/Hugo2 is the best for your money and nipping at the heels of Blu2/Dave so yes redbooks are stunning


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> *A friend of mine preferred the ProJect Hugo2 to a Blu2/Dave in his system* I will have my ProJect next month and will do some comparisons. My friend did not add ferrites to the clearer audio cables between Blu2 and Dave which is it’s Achilles heal because it was a dealer demo, so the Blu2/Dave was not optimized. I will try all combinations and report back but one thing is for sure if you are on a budget a ProJect/Clearer Audio/Hugo2 is the best for your money and *nipping at the heels of Blu2/Dave *so yes redbooks are stunning



Well, that would indeed be interesting because I have not come across anything that is even in the same ball park, never mind _'nipping at the heels of Blu2/Dave'. _

Especially as a Project RS CD and RS power supply is about a fifth of the cost of Blu2. Is it really really that good? Who else on here has heard it?


----------



## Jozurr

What USB cable have you guys felt a definite improvement on the Dave with? or does adding ferrites to the standard USB cable help achieve similar results?


----------



## marcmccalmont

Triode User said:


> Well, that would indeed be interesting because I have not come across anything that is even in the same ball park, never mind _'nipping at the heels of Blu2/Dave'. _
> 
> Especially as a Project RS CD and RS power supply is about a fifth of the cost of Blu2. Is it really really that good? Who else on here has heard it?


The combination ProJect\Clearer Audio/Hugo2 is so good it will embarrass most high end DACs MSB DCS Berkeley etc


----------



## musicday

marcmccalmont said:


> The combination ProJect\Clearer Audio/Hugo2 is so good it will embarrass most high end DACs MSB DCS Berkeley etc


What speakers are you using or just headphones?


----------



## marcmccalmont

musicday said:


> What speakers are you using or just headphones?


My system Spectral amps and MACH 1Acoustics DM 10 signatures
Sennheiser HD 800’s
My friends system Spectral amps MBL speakers and Focal Utopias


----------



## Rob Watts

Jozurr said:


> What USB cable have you guys felt a definite improvement on the Dave with? or does adding ferrites to the standard USB cable help achieve similar results?



I have listened to a number of USB cables, and they either:
1. Sound identical to a quality but inexpensive USB cable.
OR in the case of some "audiophile" USB cables:
2. Significantly deteriorate the SQ as the RF characteristics of the USB cable are poor. So the effect is too add more RF, giving a brighter SQ, which can easily fool the listener that it is more transparent. But it simply is increasing the RF noise levels, and hence increasing noise floor modulation.

I have heard no benefit on using ferrites on USB too. YMWV of course... 

On the subject of ferrites, I have found that these sound marginally better for the Blu Dave:

http://uk.farnell.com/wurth-elektro...ey=http:en-GB/Element14_United_Kingdom/search

These ferrites have higher impedance at 2.5 GHz than the other ferrites, and it's actually this frequency range that seems to be the key problem area. If you buy from Farnell, the keys to remove them are sold separately.


----------



## Triode User

Rob Watts said:


> I have listened to a number of USB cables, and they either:
> 1. Sound identical to a quality but inexpensive USB cable.
> OR in the case of some "audiophile" USB cables:
> 2. Significantly deteriorate the SQ as the RF characteristics of the USB cable are poor. So the effect is too add more RF, giving a brighter SQ, which can easily fool the listener that it is more transparent. But it simply is increasing the RF noise levels, and hence increasing noise floor modulation.
> ...



Thanks for the thoughts on different ferrites for the Blu2 Dave bnc cable. I am inclined to try some having previously tried the other Wurth ferrites (I have found a supplier somewhat cheaper than Farnell).
How many of the revised suggested ferrites were you using?


----------



## marcmccalmont

I wish they published impedance curves out to 2 or 3 GHz it is hard to tell which would be better at 2GHz the Wurth’s or the Fair Rite 61’s? Both seem to have an impedance over 400 ohms at 1GHz. I talked to a Fair Rite application engineer and (of course) he felt the Fair Rite split cores have less permeability and would be superior at 2GHz at any rate I ordered a bunch of the Fair Rites at $3 each and no key is required so let’s see


----------



## ray-dude

Rob Watts said:


> These ferrites have higher impedance at 2.5 GHz than the other ferrites, and it's actually this frequency range that seems to be the key problem area. If you buy from Farnell, the keys to remove them are sold separately.



Rob, did you find you needed fewer ferrites with these higher impedance ferrites?  What's the point of diminishing returns for the necklace?


----------



## Jawed

Rob Watts said:


> On the subject of ferrites, I have found that these sound marginally better for the Blu Dave:
> 
> http://uk.farnell.com/wurth-elektronik/74271633s/ferrite-core-split-8mm-100-ohm/dp/1635622?ost=74271633&iscrfnonsku=false&ddkey=http:en-GB/Element14_United_Kingdom/search
> 
> These ferrites have higher impedance at 2.5 GHz than the other ferrites, and it's actually this frequency range that seems to be the key problem area. If you buy from Farnell, the keys to remove them are sold separately.


It's interesting that you've come up with such a specific frequency! Have you been using your test equipment to characterise the effect of the design of each ferrite on a broad spectrum of noise?

Isn't that frequency typically associated with Wi-fi?

This document:

https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Wurth Electronics PDFs/STAR-GAP.pdf

seems to imply that the "defined air gap" is a key aspect to achieve high-frequency filtering. Does the air gap mean that the two halves of ferrite material don't actually touch? I can't understand why the air gap is relevant here...

Now playing: Chris Anderson - Too Late Now


----------



## Rob Watts

It's based upon listening tests, and a thorough re-think as to what is going on. 

We have two SQ differences - improved warmth, and improved soundstage depth. The high frequency ferrites don't improve warmth so much (it's pretty much the same), but they improve depth much more. And there are reasons for this. Depth changes are due to signal correlated RF noise which gets into Dave's ground plane, then is demodulated by the analogue electronics. One thing I know from the Dave development is that the perception of depth has no limit to how small these effects may be; in other words, small signal amplitude accuracy has to be perfect. Any change in small signal accuracy *no matter how small is audible* - and frankly that's really weird and very strange when you think about it. Warmth on the other hand is just any random RF noise, creating intermodulation (with the wanted audio signal) products in the analogue electronics, these intermod products are random noise, and hence we get noise floor modulation, and that's the source of the brightness.

Now with digital electronics we have something called ground bounce. This is current from switching activity within the FPGA or chip that goes into ground, and this current causes the ground wires (and ground plane as a ground plane has inductance too) to bounce up and down due to the ground inductance. We have two forms of noise - clock noise, which for the M scaler is 208 MHz; and noise due to logic level transitions as the internal data signal propagates through the FPGA gates. These delays are from 100pS to 500pS, so are in the 1 to 5GHz region - centred around 2 GHz. This noise (unlike clock noise) is signal correlated, and this would explain why use of 2GHz ferrites improves depth perception. Also, the galvanic isolation is effective at 208 MHz, but is ten times less effective at 2 GHz.

As to the air gap - perhaps this improves the ferrites parasitic capacitance; it's the parasitic capacitance that reduces the effectiveness of the ferrite at higher frequencies - if there was no parasitic capacitance on ferrites or on the galvanic isolation, we would not be having this sensitivity in the first place.

Rob


----------



## marcmccalmont

Rob Watts said:


> It's based upon listening tests, and a thorough re-think as to what is going on.
> 
> We have two SQ differences - improved warmth, and improved soundstage depth. The high frequency ferrites don't improve warmth so much (it's pretty much the same), but they improve depth much more. And there are reasons for this. Depth changes are due to signal correlated RF noise which gets into Dave's ground plane, then is demodulated by the analogue electronics. One thing I know from the Dave development is that the perception of depth has no limit to how small these effects may be; in other words, small signal amplitude accuracy has to be perfect. Any change in small signal accuracy *no matter how small is audible* - and frankly that's really weird and very strange when you think about it. Warmth on the other hand is just any random RF noise, creating intermodulation (with the wanted audio signal) products in the analogue electronics, these intermod products are random noise, and hence we get noise floor modulation, and that's the source of the brightness.
> 
> ...


According to an applications engineer at Fair Rite the split in a split core vs a solid cylinder decreases permeability decreasing the filters Q and increasing its HF impedance. So for this application the split core is the better choice


----------



## TheAttorney (Dec 1, 2017)

Rob Watts said:


> On the subject of ferrites, I have found that these sound marginally better for the Blu Dave:
> http://uk.farnell.com/wurth-elektronik/74271633s/ferrite-core-split-8mm-100-ohm/dp/1635622?ost=74271633&iscrfnonsku=false&ddkey=http:en-GB/Element14_United_Kingdom/search
> These ferrites have higher impedance at 2.5 GHz than the other ferrites, and it's actually this frequency range that seems to be the key problem area. If you buy from Farnell, the keys to remove them are sold separately.



I  was intrigued by the 2.5Ghz spec, so I ordered 5 from Farnell UK yesterday afternoon and they arrived today! Amazing considering it was "free" delivery.

Unfortunately I had a doh! moment and ordered the wrong size (8mm) which was too small for my 10mm-ish USB cable, so instead I added the new ferrites onto my Supra CAT8.
This already had 8 x Wurth 1Ghz plus 8 x el-cheapo ferrites (which presumably cover a lower frequency range). I didn't really want to add yet more ferrites to this cable, so I simply replaced 5 el-cheapos with 5 Wurth 2.5Ghz. All at the destination end of the cable (microRendu). And wonder of wonders, I immediately heard improvements of the same type as before - the very first thing I noticed was an increase in depth and image 3D-ness, which is always welcome with my headphones. Caveat: I've only listened to a few tracks for a few minutes before writing this, so this isn't conclusive, but I felt the improvement was obvious enough that I didn't need to go through those tedious A/B swap comparisons.

That quick test also told me that the spec of the ferrite really does matter, with the potential of being able to reduce the total number of ferrites (I'll start trying that in the future, but for now now I'll just enjoy the music).
I've now ordered 5 x 12.5mm size (the only other size listed) that will fit my USB cable.

I would class the improvement of this change as somewhat above "marginally better", but then my source components are very different to Rob's (and I don't have a Blu2), so as always YMMV.

*EDIT:* When I had written the above, I had not seen Rob's last post explaining why the Ghz range matters. So I'm pleased that my comments about depth improvement coincides with a scientific explanantion. Althought this is without a BLU2 in the chain. What I don't know is if this ferrite improvement is affecting DAVE's performance or microRendu's?


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## rgs9200m (Dec 1, 2017)

Oh well, I finally gave in and after I sold enough stuff to fully finance a move up from my trusty (beloved actually) Hugo TT to a good minty pre-owned DAVE from the for sale-forum here on head-fi.
So could I ask a favor of answers to some questions? Thanks in advance.
1. If I ever need service, can I get it?
2. Is the Dave as rock solid reliable as my Hugo and Hugo TT have been for years?
3. Can I just use the same Windows 10 driver software I use for my TT? I am using USB input.
4. If I ever want to get a stand, how should I go about this (and do people here use the stand)?
5. The manual warns that you should always power up a Dave before powering up a connected amp (headphone amp in my case). True?
6. Any important operational tips I should know about? My Hugo and Hugo TT just seemed to be plug and play pretty much, so is the DAVE more temperamental?
  (I am planning on using my external headphone amp to compare it with direct headphone use. I always liked the sound better this way with my Hugo and Hugo TT. But I have an open mind on this.)


----------



## Jawed (Dec 1, 2017)

> 3. Can I just use the same Windows 10 driver software I use for my TT? I am using USB input.


You should install the Mojo/DAVE driver. The TT driver doesn't need to be uninstalled.

If you want to change the display mode of the display, the option for this only appears if headphones are not plugged in. If you want to set crossfeed, you must have headphones plugged in. If you want to turn off crossfeed you must have headphones plugged in. 

Crossfeed, affects the RCA and balanced outputs on the back of DAVE. This makes it possible to play DAVE into a speaker system and accidentally have crossfeed switched on. The display will not show you that you are making this error... This does mean that crossfeed will work with your headphone amplifier.

Have fun, it'll blow you away. For maximum sound quality I hope you will spend the small amount of money and time finding out whether ferrites work for you. They're too cheap to ignore.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/does-chord-dave-system-need-a-dcc.809287/#post-13799263

Now playing: Sun Kil Moon - Lucky Man


----------



## JaZZ

rgs9200m said:


> 1. If I ever need service, can I get it?


Yes, of course. In your case it's probably best to contact Chord Electronics for that.



> 2. Is the Dave as rock solid reliable as my Hugo and Hugo TT have been for years?


I would think so. I have mine two years now and never had a problem. Save for some (very rare) unidentified unheralded phenomena in the form of self-acting volume regulations (mostly down, fortunately).



> 5. The manual warns that you should always power up a Dave before powering up a connected amp (headphone amp in my case). True?


Yes, that's an important rule, particularly with power amps. Less obligatory with headphone amps whose volume is attenuated. Also, never shut the DAVE down while music is still playing! It's best to power your power amp down before the DAVE.


----------



## Triode User

rgs9200m said:


> Oh well, I finally gave in and after I sold enough stuff to fully finance a move up from my trusty (beloved actually) Hugo TT to a good minty pre-owned DAVE from the for sale-forum here on head-fi.
> So could I ask a favor of answers to some questions? Thanks in advance.
> 1. If I ever need service, can I get it?
> 2. Is the Dave as rock solid reliable as my Hugo and Hugo TT have been for years?
> ...



1. It depends on which country you are in and what might go wrong. I am sure Chord will repair if necessary but most kit such as Dave is pretty reliable.
2. No reason for it not to be.
3. Sorry cant help as I am a Mac chap.
4. I saw the stand as a glorious waste of money. Mine just sits on a table.
5. I leave my Dave powered up 24/7 and switch on my amps as and when I want to listen to music (the amps are valve / tubes). 
6. Not really. Experiment with some of the settings but unless you have a pressing reason I should stick with PCM Plus. I do not regard Dave as temperamental at all.

7. Enjoy it.


----------



## rgs9200m

Thanks for all the tips! I need to read them over. You guys are great.


----------



## musicday

rgs9200m said:


> Thanks for all the tips! I need to read them over. You guys are great.


That's why i love this community. Everyone is willing to help with precious information as much as they can.
What speakers, headphones are you going to use the Dave?
And... congratulations... congratulations...for getting the best Dac at the moment


----------



## rgs9200m (Dec 1, 2017)

Thanks Musicday. No speaker setup, but using Aud. LCD4; ZMF Atticus,Eikon; Grado GS1000e, PS1000e; Hifiman HE1000-V2; Sony Z1R.


----------



## MacedonianHero

rgs9200m said:


> Oh well, I finally gave in and after I sold enough stuff to fully finance a move up from my trusty (beloved actually) Hugo TT to a good minty pre-owned DAVE from the for sale-forum here on head-fi.
> So could I ask a favor of answers to some questions? Thanks in advance.
> 1. If I ever need service, can I get it?
> 2. Is the Dave as rock solid reliable as my Hugo and Hugo TT have been for years?
> ...



Congrats! The TT is one impressive unit, but the DAVE is on a whole new plain of existence!  Simply the best DAC I've heard...period!


----------



## Christer (Dec 2, 2017)

rgs9200m said:


> Thanks Musicday. No speaker setup, but using Aud. LCD4; ZMF Atticus,Eikon; Grado GS1000e, PS1000e; Hifiman HE1000-V2; Sony Z1R.


Wow,that looks like quite a headphone selection you've got there. Any absolute favourite among them with DAVE? Or do you select your headphone also based on the recording you happen to be playing?
I haven't auditioned the Grados with DAVE,but I would suspect that the "hot" midrange /treble range of those might not be ideal with a DAC as transparent as DAVE is?
The Grados good as they are in some  respects sounded "too treble hot" playing back DXD masterfiles at some sessions I covered.
The HD 800 came closer to the live  string sound in the hall at playback than the Grados both to me and the recording engineer.
To my ears HEKV2 is a good match with  many recordings and DAVE on its own. But I fear that the twice as expensive Susvara is an even better headphone than the HEKV2.
Unfortunately it is a very tough load for DAVE on is own and with BLU2.
But with a more powerful headphone amp in the chain it delivered some the best SQ I have ever heard from rbcd.
Clearly a notch above my HEKV2.
In photographer terms I would put what I heard as, even "less grain".
Enjoy your DAVE.
Cheers Christer


----------



## tunes

I currently have a HUGO2 and have been really enjoying it with both Focal Utopias and HEKv2.  Two amazing headphones with very different flavors.  To share with friends and spouse for occasional near-field social listening, based on this review (https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-hugo-2.22209/reviews),  I just placed an order for a pair of Super 6 Alnico XRS to use with my H2.  My ultimate plan is to eventually get a DAVE with or without an upscaler and possibly in the future Rob's digital amplifier to add to the mix.  Just curious if anyone else has heard the magic of near-field single driver speakers direct from HUGO2 to yet?


----------



## marcmccalmont

tunes said:


> I currently have a HUGO2 and have been really enjoying it with both Focal Utopias and HEKv2.  Two amazing headphones with very different flavors.  To share with friends and spouse for occasional near-field social listening, based on this review (https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-hugo-2.22209/reviews),  I just placed an order for a pair of Super 6 Alnico XRS to use with my H2.  My ultimate plan is to eventually get a DAVE with or without an upscaler and possibly in the future Rob's digital amplifier to add to the mix.  Just curious if anyone else has heard the magic of near-field single driver speakers direct from HUGO2 to yet?





tunes said:


> I currently have a HUGO2 and have been really enjoying it with both Focal Utopias and HEKv2.  Two amazing headphones with very different flavors.  To share with friends and spouse for occasional near-field social listening, based on this review (https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-hugo-2.22209/reviews),  I just placed an order for a pair of Super 6 Alnico XRS to use with my H2.  My ultimate plan is to eventually get a DAVE with or without an upscaler and possibly in the future Rob's digital amplifier to add to the mix.  Just curious if anyone else has heard the magic of near-field single driver speakers direct from HUGO2 to yet?


Just be careful and audition first, the history of Hi End audio is full of less is better. Sometimes it is and other times it is not. A good passive preamp might be better than a fair active preamp but an excellent active preamp is usually better than a passive, A moving coil transformer might be better than a fair head amp but not better than a world class head amp etc etc. The Chord DAC's are unique in that 1. volume does not effect signal to noise ratio and 2. the output op amps are world class so I no longer need my Threshold FET 10E in my secondary system (HUGO2) or my Spectral DMC 30 SS II in my primary system (Blu2/Dave). But this is unique to the Chord DACs. Loudspeakers evolved into 2 and 3 way design's with power amps because of improved sound quality: First order effect's; wider band width,  better impulse response (damping factor), improved on axis frequency response, better room (power) response. Second order effects; reduced harmonic distortion, reduced inter-modulation distortion, plus improved 3rd and 4th order effects. So audition a single driver speaker, basically a large coned midrange driver with a whizzer cone ala car speakers of the 60's and 70's and audition a powered monitor like a Adam A7x and audition a good power amp (used Spectral DMA 80 or 90) with a pair of Scansonic monitors before you spend your money on a final decision. The Focal Utopias and HUG2 is world class (you should try them with the ProJect CD Box RS!) I'd hate to see you with world class headphones and speakers that are lacking.  Marc


----------



## Articnoise

I been thinking, if putting lots of ferrites all with an impedance much higher than the digital cable are made to have, won’t it also increase impedance of the BNC 75 Ohms by some means?


----------



## Rob Watts

No.
It does not affect the impedance inside the cable - the path from signal, through 75 ohm load, and back through the ground. The reason being is this is a closed magnetic loop, so no net external magnetic field. It only affects common mode currents, that is current that travels down the ground connection that is not balanced by signal current. So it increases the ground common mode impedance, which stops current flow into Dave's ground plane. In effect, you are improving the GHz galvanic isolation, but not affecting the signal speed or bandwidth at all.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Articnoise said:


> I been thinking, if putting lots of ferrites all with an impedance much higher than the digital cable are made to have, won’t it also increase impedance of the BNC 75 Ohms by some means?


The ferrites are increasing high frequency noise attenuation on the outer shield not changing the cable’s characteristic impedance (75 ohms)


----------



## rgs9200m (Dec 2, 2017)

Thanks Christer. Yep, the HEKv2 takes a big twist of my amp's volume control to get it to sing, but it does manage to deliver the goods eventually, with great resolution. (I don't have plans for the Susvara for now.)
But the HEK is nothing like the power hog my old HE6 used to be (and I like the more mellow sound of the HEK much better anyway).

Bottom line is that I still think I need my amp to use the HEKv2 and the LCD4.

But I actually find myself spending the majority of my time with my ZMF headphones. There is something special about them I can't quite describe. They hit my musical happiness zone 100% for some reason. They have a nice organic flow.
I sold my HD800 (2 pairs) and TH900 along with the HE6. I sold my Abyss too. They all had some peakiness that just didn't please me. The Abyss was OK but somehow didn't bring me close enough to the music.
The Grados, now in the e version, are nothing like the shocking-treble Grados of the past. The bass too is much more controlled. I still like the Grado PS and GS a lot for their big sound from time to time.
It'll be fun to see how the Dave works with these.

I'll still be using my AQ diamond USB cable. After lots of experiments with various USB cable (on the Hugo and Hugo TT), I found the Diamond to be a surprisingly huge step up in sound. I was shocked how much the USB cable could make a difference, but I was turned into a believer with this one.

I have no idea why a USB cable could make such a difference.


----------



## Articnoise

Okay, so have anyone actually measured that it is still 75 Ohms with all this ferrites and not only theoretical. Many things gets better with them, but I lose some dynamics and bite.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Articnoise said:


> Okay, so have anyone actually measured that it is still 75 Ohms with all this ferrites and not only theoretical. Many things gets better with them, but I lose some dynamics and bite.


Strange because I get better dynamics and leading edges (bite) with the ferrites


----------



## Triode User

Articnoise said:


> Okay, so have anyone actually measured that it is still 75 Ohms with all this ferrites and not only theoretical. Many things gets better with them, but I lose some dynamics and bite.



Is it possible that what you perceive as 'dynamics' and 'bite' might actually be noise?


----------



## Articnoise

marcmccalmont said:


> Strange because I get better dynamics and leading edges (bite) with the ferrites



Yes it’s strange, but OTOH I don’t have Chord DAC so maybe lower sample rates or frequencies are transmitted in my setup than yours.


----------



## Articnoise

Triode User said:


> Is it possible that what you perceive as 'dynamics' and 'bite' might actually be noise?



No I don’t believe that’s the case.


----------



## Triode User (Dec 2, 2017)

Articnoise said:


> No I don’t believe that’s the case.



I thought I recollected that Rob had mentioned the reduction in faux dynamics as being an indicator for RF noise being reduced. Certainly what I heard pre and post ferrite could be confused for a reduction in dynamics.

Edit to say I have just seen that you do not have Blu2 / Dave. My comments are specifically related to the BNC cables between Blu2 and Dave.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Articnoise said:


> Yes it’s strange, but OTOH I don’t have Chord DAC so maybe lower sample rates or frequencies are transmitted in my setup than yours.


The ferrites are specifically for the coax cables between a Chord Blu2 and Chord Dave due to ground noise generated by Blu2 and passed to Dave by the coax outer shield. I don't think this was a general "lets improve all cables with all dacs"


----------



## TheAttorney

My final ferrite-fi update for a while:

Farnell UK again proved themeselves as the fastest supplier - by delivering my 5 x 12mm 2.5Ghz ferrites the very next day after me ordering around 5pm. .
So at the Destination end (ISORegen) of my USB cable, I replaced 4 x 1Ghz with 4 x 2.5Ghz, and my immediate impression was that the sound was yet clearer and more impactful. But this time there was a downside: it also seemed _too_ clear, i.e. a touch of brightness had crept back in, and that I didn't welcome. 

Putting back some 1Ghz ferrites seemed to tame that brightness, bringing it back to a more balanced, natural sound. 
The moral of this story is that the 2.5Ghz ferrites are not _necessarily_ a panacea for all RFI ills. As a start point, it's probably worth havinging at least 3 bands (with the el-cheapo ferrites for the lower frequencies - a guess in the absence of any concrete data). 

These changes have been happening too fast for me to be confident in these findings - I prefer to take my time to get used to a change before making another one. So treat this as food for thought, and I won't post any more impressions {hurrah! some shout] until it's all settled down and I can be more certain of the results.


----------



## dmance (Dec 2, 2017)

rgs9200m said:


> ... I have no idea why a USB cable could make such a difference.



Hello?  Read the myriad posts on this topic.  Different USB cables have different RFI attenuation characteristics.  Different metallurgy and construction makes the cable act like a long clamp-on ferrite to varying degrees.  All USB cables deliver the bits intact.  How they differ is in how much analog noise they allow to pass to the DAC.
YMMV, but I've had spectacular success just piling on inexpensive ferrites.  Lots of posts about which ones to get.


----------



## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> My final ferrite-fi update for a while:
> 
> Farnell UK again proved themeselves as the fastest supplier - by delivering my 5 x 12mm 2.5Ghz ferrites the very next day after me ordering around 5pm. .
> So at the Destination end (ISORegen) of my USB cable, I replaced 4 x 1Ghz with 4 x 2.5Ghz, and my immediate impression was that the sound was yet clearer and more impactful. But this time there was a downside: it also seemed _too_ clear, i.e. a touch of brightness had crept back in, and that I didn't welcome.
> ...



But I thought idea of the the 2.5GHz ferrites was introduced by Rob Watts specifically for the BNC cable between Blu2 and Dave and because they are specifically targeted at the frequency of the noise produced by the Blu2. There was no suggestion of them being appropriate for general USB use, indeed I thought Rob had said he did not think there was any benefit to ferrites on USB cables feeding Dave (or Blu2).

Perfectly happy to be corrected if I am wrong here.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Dec 2, 2017)

Triode User said:


> But I thought idea of the the 2.5GHz ferrites was introduced by Rob Watts specifically for the BNC cable between Blu2 and Dave and because they are specifically targeted at the frequency of the noise produced by the Blu2. There was no suggestion of them being appropriate for general USB use, indeed I thought Rob had said he did not think there was any benefit to ferrites on USB cables feeding Dave (or Blu2).
> 
> Perfectly happy to be corrected if I am wrong here.


I think you are correct but ferrites are used for general purpose rfi/emi reduction. The Clearer Audio coax that I'm enjoying have 2 ferrite rings (lower frequency) designed into them and the Tripp Lite USB cables are both well shielded and have ferrites on both ends. My HDMI cables connecting my computer to my monitor have ferrites. So I'm thinking the 2.5 ghz ferrites, as many as you can fit on the cable, for the 2 BLU2/Dave coaxes and some lower frequency ferrites on the other digital cables coming from your sources might be appropriate, season to taste on these.


----------



## Deftone

Jozurr said:


> What USB cable have you guys felt a definite improvement on the Dave with? or does adding ferrites to the standard USB cable help achieve similar results?



I’ve mentioned this before but I don’t think anyone tried, this seems like it much nicer looking and tidier solution. QED reference usb with what they call
*FLOATING INTERNAL FERRITE JACKET*
*
 *


----------



## TheAttorney

Triode User said:


> But I thought idea of the the 2.5GHz ferrites was introduced by Rob Watts specifically for the BNC cable between Blu2 and Dave and because they are specifically targeted at the frequency of the noise produced by the Blu2. There was no suggestion of them being appropriate for general USB use, indeed I thought Rob had said he did not think there was any benefit to ferrites on USB cables feeding Dave (or Blu2).
> .



Yes that's correct as to what Rob has said. And I've made it clear in earlier posts that I don't have a Blu2.
But _my_ experience in _my _system is that ferrites do matter for DAVE-without-Blu2. And I'm not the only one saying this. E.g, Jawed.

In particular, they've benefitted my ethernet cable, as previously reported.

When I had Blu2 on loan, I also tried 4 x 1Ghz ferrites on each stock BNC cable. And the ferrite difference on the BNC cables I noted at the time was not as significant as I'm now getting with the larger number of ferrites on my USB and ethernet cables.
I can't explain all this - I'm just reporting back what I hear. I earlier referenced Rob's post becuase I specifically heard a depth improvement when adding 2.5Ghz ferrites to my ethernet cable - before I had seen him state that 2.5Ghz is likely to improve depth. His theory was based on BluDAVE. My observations have shown (to me at least) that in my circumstance the impact of RFI goes well beyond what Blu2 may be doing.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Dec 2, 2017)

TheAttorney said:


> Yes that's correct as to what Rob has said. And I've made it clear in earlier posts that I don't have a Blu2.
> But _my_ experience in _my _system is that ferrites do matter for DAVE-without-Blu2. And I'm not the only one saying this. E.g, Jawed.
> 
> In particular, they've benefitted my ethernet cable, as previously reported.
> ...


Who knows whats being radiated out of my Plasma TV and all the wall wart power supplies around the house! I'm sure it all helps


----------



## dmance

@TheAttorney 
I am with you on all you are doing and hearing wrt USB ferrites.  I now have 24 on my DAC end ...a combination of Wurth MHz and GHz ferrites.  Can't believe it but for me this has cured all my laptop source ills.  
Regarding brightness you hear with GHz ferrites ...id say the you've exposed another issue to waste time over.
(No, I don't own a DAVE but have access to a Hugo2, 2Qute, antelope zodiac and PSaudio DSJ  DACs.  Nothing conclusive but in comparison I'd say chord products are less affected by RFI.  I hope to have an extended listening test over the holidays)


----------



## rgs9200m

Thanks Dmance, I am aware of the USB cable discussions. I just wanted to head off all the expected comments or flames I thought would be posted saying it was the placebo effect or that I was imagining things and just impressed at the fancy jacket on the cable.


----------



## musicday

TheAttorney said:


> My final ferrite-fi update for a while:
> 
> Farnell UK again proved themeselves as the fastest supplier - by delivering my 5 x 12mm 2.5Ghz ferrites the very next day after me ordering around 5pm. .
> So at the Destination end (ISORegen) of my USB cable, I replaced 4 x 1Ghz with 4 x 2.5Ghz, and my immediate impression was that the sound was yet clearer and more impactful. But this time there was a downside: it also seemed _too_ clear, i.e. a touch of brightness had crept back in, and that I didn't welcome.
> ...


Man, i have a feeling that you won't stop any time soon with your experiments
Relax and start enjoying music more and that Dave too.


----------



## musicday (Dec 2, 2017)

Have anyone tried Pioneer Master 1 headphones with Chord Dave? Apparently this headphone take a very long time to burn in and i want to know how it sounds and how does compare to Utopia, if anyone tried/owns both.Thank you in advance.


----------



## Rob Watts

TheAttorney said:


> My final ferrite-fi update for a while:
> 
> Farnell UK again proved themeselves as the fastest supplier - by delivering my 5 x 12mm 2.5Ghz ferrites the very next day after me ordering around 5pm. .
> So at the Destination end (ISORegen) of my USB cable, I replaced 4 x 1Ghz with 4 x 2.5Ghz, and my immediate impression was that the sound was yet clearer and more impactful. But this time there was a downside: it also seemed _too_ clear, i.e. a touch of brightness had crept back in, and that I didn't welcome.
> ...





Triode User said:


> But I thought idea of the the 2.5GHz ferrites was introduced by Rob Watts specifically for the BNC cable between Blu2 and Dave and because they are specifically targeted at the frequency of the noise produced by the Blu2. There was no suggestion of them being appropriate for general USB use, indeed I thought Rob had said he did not think there was any benefit to ferrites on USB cables feeding Dave (or Blu2).
> 
> Perfectly happy to be corrected if I am wrong here.



Yes my experiments with ferrites are only on Blu 2 to Dave. I have not had any success with ferrites on the USB - they made no difference with my laptop and Blu Dave; but I suspect that different sources, with more noise, would have an effect. Also, I suspect that 300MHz to 1GHz would be more appropriate for USB.

As too which ferrite is best, then for sure the warmer, smoother or softer sounding is the more transparent, as the mechanism for changing the sound is RF noise creating noise floor modulation - and more noise modulation always sounds brighter. Moreover, it's very easy to confuse a bright sound with more transparency.

An additional mechanism for changing the sound is signal correlated RF noise being demodulated and then very subtly changing small signal amplitudes; this will then degrade depth. So for source components, look for the richer smoother sound (even if it's too warm - then adjust your system in other ways to restore tonal balance) and also go for the better perception of depth. And you may mix and match too - I use HF ferrites at Dave end, and the lower frequency ferrites towards Blu 2.


----------



## TheAttorney

musicday said:


> Man, i have a feeling that you won't stop any time soon with your experiments
> Relax and start enjoying music more and that Dave too.



As it happens, the several minutes I've spent faffing around with ferrites has been interspersed with several hours of just enjoying music . 
But yes, just like any addict, it doesn't take long for an audiophile to be looking for his next "hit". 

The reason I've been pursuing this topic over the last few weeks is due to the size of that "hit". Perspective time: I've occasionally come across a wonderful tweak for which I've said something like: "it's as big a difference as some DAC changes I've made". But when I "crossed the ferrite Rubicon" for about £35, I got a notably _bigger _hit than when I replaced my Yggy DAC with DAVE. And in the same ballpark as when I had the Blu2 on loan. Yes, really.

That doesn't mean that a bunch of ferrites is the equal of these great components - because that would be silly. But it does indicate that sometimes a weak link can severely mask the true potential of those great components. And in the digital world, I've been often surprised by what is the weakest link and by the cost of its solution. So, should I criticize DAVE for seemingly not being as isolated from upstream flaws as Rob suggests? Or should I praise DAVE for being so transparent that it readily scales up with every upstream improvement? As a glass-half-full kinda guy, I'm inclined towards the latter sentiment. It's all good.

This "hit" perspective also indicates that I'm much, much harder to please when the component is very expensive, compared to when the cost is the equivalent of loose change. Which I think is at it should be.


----------



## TheAttorney

Rob Watts said:


> I have not had any success with ferrites on the USB - they made no difference with my laptop and Blu Dave; but I suspect that different sources, with more noise, would have an effect..



I've often been puzzled how you can get away with a laptop directly connected to a DAC, when so many enthusiasts would consider an un-modified PC to be just about the worst possible start to getting a decent source.
Now, it could well be that me adding magic boxes like the mR, whilst undeniably improving my own laptop, have added other complications that affect the impact of ferrites etc.

One thing I do agree with though on your previous comments: running the laptop on battery is better than running off its switched p/s.


----------



## Natronious

marcmccalmont said:


> The ProJect CD Box RS and Pro-ject power box RS Uni 1-Way is much better! Even better than my MSB CDIV it’s probably the best transport out there


I'm seriously considering this transport to pair with DAVE. This here is pretty high praise, though I had never heard of this transport (+ power supply), and have not previously owned any Pro-ject gear. There is not very much information out there on it, I wish I could read more impressions. Ultimately, I'd like a Blu, but that will take a while.

I currently have a Cyrus transport, but not the newer one. It's the CDT SE+, but it suffers from readability issues, in that many discs won't properly load, etc. They had a software update some months after I purchased the  unit, which I believe addressed this, but I waited too long to act, and now they will no longer perform this update, which is terrible really. The upside to this frustration, is that they offered me a special price (dealer price) on their newest transport, which would actually put it below the cost of this Pro-Ject unit (with external power supply). I wonder if anyone has any idea which of these would do a better job? Cyrus CDT signature, vs. Pro-Ject CD box RS. 

Anyone have any idea on this? 

The Cambridge Audio CXC would seem to be the 'best' transport out there for cheap, but hopefully another $1000 to $1,500 would offer a considerable step up...


----------



## musicday

nbarnard36 said:


> I'm seriously considering this transport to pair with DAVE. This here is pretty high praise, though I had never heard of this transport (+ power supply), and have not previously owned any Pro-ject gear. There is not very much information out there on it, I wish I could read more impressions. Ultimately, I'd like a Blu, but that will take a while.
> 
> I currently have a Cyrus transport, but not the newer one. It's the CDT SE+, but it suffers from readability issues, in that many discs won't properly load, etc. They had a software update some months after I purchased the  unit, which I believe addressed this, but I waited too long to act, and now they will no longer perform this update, which is terrible really. The upside to this frustration, is that they offered me a special price (dealer price) on their newest transport, which would actually put it below the cost of this Pro-Ject unit (with external power supply). I wonder if anyone has any idea which of these would do a better job? Cyrus CDT signature, vs. Pro-Ject CD box RS.
> 
> ...


Why not consider Oppo Blu-ray player, especially latest ones they are very reliable and will spinn anything, including SACD. Best of both worlds


----------



## rgs9200m

I have a Cambridge 752BD and really like it for DVDs and BluRays. It also does not get as warm as the Oppo. I A/B'd with the Oppo and I also liked the sound better for DVDs on the Cambridge.
The Cambridge is nicer to me aesthetically because it's a sealed black box with no vents on the top. the Oppo is more industrial-style.


----------



## marcmccalmont

nbarnard36 said:


> I'm seriously considering this transport to pair with DAVE. This here is pretty high praise, though I had never heard of this transport (+ power supply), and have not previously owned any Pro-ject gear. There is not very much information out there on it, I wish I could read more impressions. Ultimately, I'd like a Blu, but that will take a while.
> 
> I currently have a Cyrus transport, but not the newer one. It's the CDT SE+, but it suffers from readability issues, in that many discs won't properly load, etc. They had a software update some months after I purchased the  unit, which I believe addressed this, but I waited too long to act, and now they will no longer perform this update, which is terrible really. The upside to this frustration, is that they offered me a special price (dealer price) on their newest transport, which would actually put it below the cost of this Pro-Ject unit (with external power supply). I wonder if anyone has any idea which of these would do a better job? Cyrus CDT signature, vs. Pro-Ject CD box RS.
> 
> ...


If you want the best sound quality go for the ProJect it beats my MSB CDIV which is quite a feat


----------



## musicday

rgs9200m said:


> I have a Cambridge 752BD and really like it for DVDs and BluRays. It also does not get as warm as the Oppo. I A/B'd with the Oppo and I also liked the sound better for DVDs on the Cambridge.
> The Cambridge is nicer to me aesthetically because it's a sealed black box with no vents on the top. the Oppo is more industrial-style.


What Oppo model are you talking here? UDP205 is better vented and has the audio circuit completely separated, to minimise noise and I think the air flow is better due to the superior chassis construction.


----------



## Natronious (Dec 4, 2017)

Thank you for the reply's. It makes sense to use a universal disc spinner, such as the Oppo 205 and the Cambridge. Aren't the 103/203's considered to offer the same quality as their 105/205 counterparts if using the digital out?

There is no doubt that most any quality transport will sound very good through DAVE, and I do actually plan on using it for watching films as well...

Ultimately, a Blu II may one day happen. Perhaps after several years, and like DAVE, occasional units will appear in the For Sale section. I could see using what I have (I do currently have an Oppo 103, and the aforementioned Cyrus) and waiting.

 I do like the idea of a component optimized for a specific function. In this way, the Blu II is a disc transport optimized for operation as a disc (cd) transport. A Pro-Ject CD Box is similarly optimized, though not to the same extent (lofty standard/capability). But nonetheless intriguing. Marc is offering some pretty high praise here for it, I wish there was more said about it.

Marcmccalmont, please do report on this pairing when you eventually get your unit. When did you say you were getting your own?


----------



## marcmccalmont

nbarnard36 said:


> Thank you for the reply's. It makes sense to use a universal disc spinner, such as the Oppo 205 and the Cambridge. Aren't the 103/105's considered to offer the same quality as their 203/205 counterparts if using the digital out?
> 
> There is no doubt that most any quality transport will sound very good through DAVE, and I do actually plan on using it for watching films as well...
> 
> ...


I work overseas and will return for Christmas. It will be January before it’s in my primary system I’ll report back then


----------



## rgs9200m (Dec 4, 2017)

I have the Oppo 105D too. That's the one I was talking about where I said I like the Cambridge 752bd better. Both have been superseded by new models but are around used usually with a little searching.

I recently watched the Beatles Anthology and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame collection on DVD on my Cambridge 752bd and listened through my headphone amps on my Grado GS and PS1000e and it looked and sounded mighty good to me.

(These are awesome DVDs by the way, just IMHO, and I recommend them to anyone interested. There are lots of good extras too.)

So I'm guessing the Cambridge has a pretty good transport.


----------



## Jozurr

Im going to try and add ferrites to the USB cable and see if I notice any changes. What ferrites size would fit the USB cable that comes with the Dave? I'd prefer something off amazon but not closed to buying elsewhere if there's something definitely better


----------



## Triode User

Rob Watts posted this below. Also, the problem with the Amazon type is (as far as I have seen) they have no spec associated with them so you are really going into this rather blind if you choose to try them.



Rob Watts said:


> Yes my experiments with ferrites are only on Blu 2 to Dave. I have not had any success with ferrites on the USB - they made no difference with my laptop and Blu Dave; but I suspect that different sources, with more noise, would have an effect. Also, I suspect that 300MHz to 1GHz would be more appropriate for USB.
> 
> As to which ferrite is best, then for sure the warmer, smoother or softer sounding is the more transparent, as the mechanism for changing the sound is RF noise creating noise floor modulation - and more noise modulation always sounds brighter. Moreover, it's very easy to confuse a bright sound with more transparency.
> 
> An additional mechanism for changing the sound is signal correlated RF noise being demodulated and then very subtly changing small signal amplitudes; this will then degrade depth. So for source components, look for the richer smoother sound (even if it's too warm - then adjust your system in other ways to restore tonal balance) and also go for the better perception of depth. And you may mix and match too - I use HF ferrites at Dave end, and the lower frequency ferrites towards Blu 2.


----------



## Jawed (Dec 5, 2017)

Jozurr said:


> Im going to try and add ferrites to the USB cable and see if I notice any changes. What ferrites size would fit the USB cable that comes with the Dave? I'd prefer something off amazon but not closed to buying elsewhere if there's something definitely better


I recommend 20 of these [fixed link]:

https://www.amazon.co.uk//dp/B01N4U91RS 

There are other brands of ferrites that are exactly the same. So whatever country you are in, I'm sure you'll find something that's similar.

No one has done a comparison of various ferrites when used on a USB cable, so there's no specific recommendation. It's simplest to buy some and see if you like the result. 20 is a good number. 10 is likely to make only a minor difference, while 20 is likely to make a major difference. 20 cost £14, which in hi-fi is silly cheap... If you hunt around on Amazon and are willing to wait for a month or so while they ship from China, you can buy 20 for about half that price.

Now playing: Oliver Nelson - Stolen Moments


----------



## musicday

The above link doesn't work, mind checking it? Thanks.


----------



## Triode User (Dec 5, 2017)

musicday said:


> The above link doesn't work, mind checking it? Thanks.



Try this. I have bought some but have not yet had time to play with them. There are options to select the internal dia.

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01N4U91RS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Jozurr

Triode User said:


> Try this. I have bought some but have not yet had time to play with them. There are options to select the internal dia.
> 
> www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01N4U91RS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1



These do not seem specced so no idea if they are the 1ghz ones being talked about. Been trying to find specced ones on amazon with no luck


----------



## Triode User

Jozurr said:


> These do not seem specced so no idea if they are the 1ghz ones being talked about. Been trying to find specced ones on amazon with no luck



Yes, this is exactly what I have been saying about the Amazon ones. ie no spec so it is really a leap in the dark using them.


----------



## 474194 (Dec 5, 2017)

Triode User said:


> Yes, this is exactly what I have been saying about the Amazon ones. ie no spec so it is really a leap in the dark using them.



On AMZN US, there's a reply by the seller on the Q&A:


> What frequencies will these suppress?
> Answer:
> Hi friend, these could suppress a wide range of frequencies:1-1000MHZ(the effect of high frequency will be better).
> Like EMI, RIF, Noise Interference.
> ...



I believe it's the same company, same product...

https://www.amazon.com/Topnisus-Ant...&qid=1512535142&sr=8-10&keywords=ferrite&th=1


----------



## Triode User

AC-12 said:


> On AMZN US, there's a reply by the seller on the Q&A:
> 
> 
> I believe it's the same company, same product...
> ...



But that is more or less meaningless and the way the response is worded I doubt if the seller actually knows what the spec really is. If he had been asked if they work up to 2.5GHz he would have probably said, “sure my friend”.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Triode User said:


> But that is more or less meaningless and the way the response is worded I doubt if the seller actually knows what the spec really is. If he had been asked if they work up to 2.5GHz he would have probably said, “sure my friend”.


I had a good discussion with Rob Watts and with an applications engineer at Fair Rite. Here is the summary for those that are interested.
The issue between Blu2 and Dave is an approximately 2 GHz noise issue on the ground plane of Dave generated by Blu2. 
This is best solved by either the Fare Rite material 61 or the Wurth 2.5 GHz Ferittes. 
Any general purpose rfi issues ie USB/coax inputs to Blu2 are best solved with lower frequency ferittes like the Topnisus ferrites.
Rob uses mostly the Wurths on the Dave end of his coax and lower frequency ferrites on the Blu2 end of the coax
I have had good luck with the Topnisus ferrites between Blu2 and Dave, I however have ordered some Wurths and some Fair Rite's and will report back which I found optimum (most effective) 
I can assure you the Topnisus are not ineffective they work quite well infact.


----------



## TheAttorney

marcmccalmont said:


> I have had good luck with the Topnisus ferrites between Blu2 and Dave, I however have ordered some Wurths and some Fair Rite's and will report back which I found optimum (most effective)
> I can assure you the Topnisus are not ineffective they work quite well infact.



Your experience with the (presumably lower frequency) Topnisus somewhat contradicts Rob's comment about the importance of 2.5Ghz between Blu2 and DAVE. Which doesn't mean that Rob is wrong, but rather suggests that other things are going on that are impacting the end result. Which reminds me to repeat one of my favourite hifi quips:

"All hifi must conform to the laws of physics... but the most important law in high end audio is the Law of Unintended Consequences".

Based on my own informal subjective observations for DAVE-without-Blu2, my inclination would be to cover all bases - by having say 4 x 2.5Ghz, plus 4 x 1Ghz plus loads of Amazon ones. There will be an overlap of frequency bands, but my understanding is that, on digital cables at least, the impedance at RFI frequencies can never get too high. The only limit that comes in will be when you can no longer hear any further improvement.

As well as the stated max frequency, the better ferrites may have higher impedances over a range of frequencies. For example, the 1Ghz Wurth has typically at least double the impedance at 100Mhz as cheaper ferrites (of the ones I've seen that also publish specs). Does that mean that you'd only need half as many Wurths to achieve the end result? Dunno. I get the feeling that we've only touched the tip of the iceburg on this whole RFI/EMI/ferrite topic.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Dec 7, 2017)

TheAttorney said:


> Your experience with the (presumably lower frequency) Topnisus somewhat contradicts Rob's comment about the importance of 2.5Ghz between Blu2 and DAVE. Which doesn't mean that Rob is wrong, but rather suggests that other things are going on that are impacting the end result. Which reminds me to repeat one of my favourite hifi quips:


This does not contradict Rob at all until I try the hf fair rites and wurths I don’t know how much more improvement I’ll get. I’m willing to spend the money and do the experiment! I’m hoping for improvements. Remember ferries are broadband filters so the lower frequencies ones help with the hf noise and vice versa I’ll let you know the results in January when I return with a bag of known ferries inhand


----------



## Imusicman

Hi Guys, I apologise if this has been covered in the thread before or if it seems like a stupid set of questions but I am in need to some real basic advice please. Currently I only use my Dave for listening to headphones which I really enjoy, however I would also like to add some speakers to my set up. Unfortunately I have absolutely no experience with a speaker set up. My Dave is connected via USB to my iMac and nothing else. My questions are;

Do I need anything else in the chain to enable me to play music through the speakers?

What connection would be best to use from the Dave to the speakers?

Does it matter which speakers I buy? I am thinking of buying the Ref LS50's

Many thanks in anticipation of your replies


----------



## musicday

Imusicman said:


> Hi Guys, I apologise if this has been covered in the thread before or if it seems like a stupid set of questions but I am in need to some real basic advice please. Currently I only use my Dave for listening to headphones which I really enjoy, however I would also like to add some speakers to my set up. Unfortunately I have absolutely no experience with a speaker set up. My Dave is connected via USB to my iMac and nothing else. My questions are;
> 
> Do I need anything else in the chain to enable me to play music through the speakers?
> 
> ...


Is more down to the way you want to listen to speakers, that suits you. As for me I will go as plain as possible, to not have any coloration in the sound.
So : Laptop USB-  Dave - RCA cable directly to high efficiency speakers such as Omega that are very good based on the online reviews, but there are other brands if you do a research.
This setup is more then enough, i am talking about volume/sound pressure in near field listening.
Note that the above setup is what I would like, but you are free to experience with active speakers, and such.
Musicday


----------



## Imusicman

musicday said:


> Is more down to the way you want to listen to speakers, that suits you. As for me I will go as plain as possible, to not have any coloration in the sound.
> So : Laptop USB-  Dave - RCA cable directly to high efficiency speakers such as Omega that are very good based on the online reviews, but there are other brands if you do a research.
> This setup is more then enough, i am talking about volume/sound pressure in near field listening.
> Note that the above setup is what I would like, but you are free to experience with active speakers, and such.
> Musicday



 So RCA cables and I would be in business.

Great thanks


----------



## rayl

Imusicman said:


> So RCA cables and I would be in business.
> 
> Great thanks



If your speakers are active (powered) or are of sufficiently high efficiency, then yes.

Else you will need amplification.

However, if using active spkrs or separate amplification, there is no harm and  only upside (extra noise immunity) to using balanced connections -- so why not go balanced...


----------



## esimms86

An interesting article on phase polarity and "absolute phase" by John Atkinson in Stereophile magazine. It appears that people with perfect pitch are the ones likely to be absolute phase detectors as well. 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-tests-and-absolute-phase


----------



## Jozurr

I'm going to order 20 topnisus ferrites to test on my USB cable for the fun of it. Do you guys know if 3mm or 5mm fit better on the stock USB cable that comes with the Dave?


----------



## Jawed

Jozurr said:


> I'm going to order 20 topnisus ferrites to test on my USB cable for the fun of it. Do you guys know if 3mm or 5mm fit better on the stock USB cable that comes with the Dave?


5mm will be a tight fit. 7mm will be an easy fit. I recommend 7mm.


----------



## rgs9200m (Dec 8, 2017)

Quick summary of my question: Can I just plug DAVE into the wall with the stock power cord and be OK?

How do DAVE owners handle power to their DAVE? Do they use power conditioners or high-end power cables?
Does anyone use the stock cable?
Does anyone just plug it right into the wall?
Is it OK to take this minimalist approach (stock cable directly into the wall)?
Does anyone use  so-called "audiophile" power strips ? (I have not tried them.)
Thanks.

(Over the years with other digital components and amps, I've had mixed results with various power conditioners/power cables/regenerators, many of them harming the sound, notably making the bass opaque. And with regenerators, I heard sizzling highs. Some silver-based power cables also over-emphasized the highs. I've had some good results with Shunyata cords, but I have no room for these firehose-like power snakes or their Hydra boxes in my desktop setup.)


----------



## Triode User

rgs9200m said:


> Quick summary of my question: Can I just plug DAVE into the wall with the stock power cord and be OK?
> 
> How do DAVE owners handle power to their DAVE? Do they use power conditioners or high-end power cables?
> Does anyone use the stock cable?
> ...



*Can I just plug DAVE into the wall with the stock power cord and be OK? *
YES!!!!! That is all I use, I would not dream of using anything else.

*How do DAVE owners handle power to their DAVE? Do they use power conditioners or high-end power cables?*
See above. Also, has anyone ever seen Chord themselves use power conditioners or high- end power cables at a show? If they were needed or were effective then surely Chord would use them to be able to show off the best sound at the show? (Especially at a show in a hotel with likely 'dirty' mains due to lifts etc)

*Does anyone use the stock cable?*
YES, me.

*Does anyone just plug it right into the wall?*
At the risk of repeating myself, yes, plug it right into the wall.

_*Is it OK to take this minimalist approach (stock cable directly into the wall)?*_
I really am going to repeat myself now. YES, stock cable directly into the wall.

Really, my advice is to think very carefully about how much you are considering spending on power conditioners or high end power cables and evaluate whether the money wouldn't be better set aside to go towards the cost of a Blu2.


----------



## rayl

rgs9200m said:


> Quick summary of my question: Can I just plug DAVE into the wall with the stock power cord and be OK?
> 
> How do DAVE owners handle power to their DAVE? Do they use power conditioners or high-end power cables?
> Does anyone use the stock cable?
> ...



I recall reading a comment by Rob to the effect that power is pretty damn good in DAVE and my own listening concurs. As a matter of fact, when I first plugged my DAVE this past Monday, the biggest difference I noticed was background noise reduction during silent passages.  Prior to deciding on the DAVE, I had traced much of that to my power source. I noticed this improvement much more than any differences in sound stage, etc.

So I agree with just plugging the stock cable into the wall (or into a plain old surge protector to protect against lightning strikes).... If not 100%, it is 99.99%.

Though I am curious to know if folks had thoughts on good power filtering (not regeneration -- I am just too conscious about wasting energy to go the regen route) for amps as I believe the remaining noise I hear is from my amps (bec I don't hear it with headphones)....


----------



## bigfatpaulie

rgs9200m said:


> Quick summary of my question: Can I just plug DAVE into the wall with the stock power cord and be OK?
> 
> How do DAVE owners handle power to their DAVE? Do they use power conditioners or high-end power cables?
> Does anyone use the stock cable?
> ...



I think you will get a whole range of answers.  DAVE isn't 100% immune to bad power.  I personally have just terrible power in my home and I use a HFC power cable as well as a PS Audio P5.

In my case, it makes a night and day difference.  But YMMV...


----------



## dmance

Regarding AC Mains conditioning for DAVE.  I do remember the AudioBacon review mentioning that it had an impact....  https://audiobacon.net/2016/04/15/chord-dave-review-project-evad-evaluation-dave/


----------



## rgs9200m (Dec 8, 2017)

OK, thanks for the honest direct answers and the link.
I'm hesitant about the PS Audio regenerators. Years ago, I tried one in my Stax system (an old P3 and it hyped up the sound and made the amp run hot). I returned the thing.

I did like my old old Shunyata Hydra box + Anaconda cord setup on my EMM player, but this is not a rack system with tons of room, so I can't go that route.


----------



## SuperDuke

I have to agree w/ Triode User.  I've tried a nice conditioner and somewhat nice power cord (Pangea) w/ no noticeable differences.  One thing to be careful of is some of the Python sized power cords are so heavy and inflexible they can put a lot of stress on the IEC connector in the DAVE.


----------



## Triode User

dmance said:


> Regarding AC Mains conditioning for DAVE.  I do remember the AudioBacon review mentioning that it had an impact....  https://audiobacon.net/2016/04/15/chord-dave-review-project-evad-evaluation-dave/



Yeah but they also rave about some crazy foo stuff so I take all of their reviews with a huge pinch of salt.


----------



## xxx1313 (Dec 8, 2017)

bigfatpaulie said:


> I think you will get a whole range of answers.  DAVE isn't 100% immune to bad power.  I personally have just terrible power in my home and I use a HFC power cable as well as a PS Audio P5.
> 
> In my case, it makes a night and day difference.  But YMMV...



New happy Dave owner here. 

I also just bought a used PS Audio P5 for my new Dave. The Dave sounds good when directly plugged to the wall socket, but it definitely sounds even better with the PS Audio P5. I will not buy a power cable for a few thousand Euros, but I will use a better shielded cable than the stock cable.

@bigfatpaulie and other PS Audio Power Plant users: Which cable do you use between P3/5/10 and Dave?


----------



## marcmccalmont

xxx1313 said:


> New happy Dave owner here.
> 
> I also just bought a used PS Audio P5 for my new Dave. The Dave sounds good when directly plugged to the wall socket, but it definitely sounds even better with the PS Audio P5. I will not buy a power cable for a few thousand Euros, but I will use a better shielded cable than the stock cable.
> 
> @bigfatpaulie and other PS Audio Power Plant users: Which cable do you use between P3/5/10 and Dave?


Pangea AC14 se II


----------



## xxx1313

marcmccalmont said:


> Pangea AC14 se II



Thanks! This looks like a very reasonably priced alternative to the stock cable.


----------



## marcmccalmont

xxx1313 said:


> Thanks! This looks like a very reasonably priced alternative to the stock cable.


Actually sounds and works better than the mega buck cords it’s a sleeper and a bargain


----------



## xxx1313

marcmccalmont said:


> Actually sounds and works better than the mega buck cords it’s a sleeper and a bargain


Just ordered one.


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> Actually sounds and works better than the mega buck cords it’s a sleeper and a bargain



Look guys, for the power consumption of the Dave or indeed Blu2 one could use bell wire or lighting flex to power them from the mains and yet the special cables stress OFC credentials for improved current handling capabilities, gold plated connections etc etc. And I f they have any shielding capabilities then remember that is only the last 3 feet after the electricity leaves the wall. What about the tens of feet of cable in the wall? Don’t forget that noise, if any, can be filtered out of a mains cable by some cheap ferrites if needed (although I think Rob W has always said they are not needed on mains cables so I think that tells us something).

The brain is always going to make the ears believe that the fat brightly coloured cable sounds better no doubt helped by the fat price tag. Sorry but I can’t believe otherwise intelligent people buy these cables.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

xxx1313 said:


> New happy Dave owner here.
> 
> I also just bought a used PS Audio P5 for my new Dave. The Dave sounds good when directly plugged to the wall socket, but it definitely sounds even better with the PS Audio P5. I will not buy a power cable for a few thousand Euros, but I will use a better shielded cable than the stock cable.
> 
> @bigfatpaulie and other PS Audio Power Plant users: Which cable do you use between P3/5/10 and Dave?




Some feel cables are a total waste of money - and to each their own.  I bought a lower end High Fidelity Cable (CT-1) on @romaz advice.  I later upgraded to CT-1 Ultimate because, despite me being sceptical and not wanting to part with the money, it did, to me, make a notable difference.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Dec 8, 2017)

Years ago I wired 4 dedicated circuits to my breaker box all in metal conduit, metal boxes and hospital grade plugs with ground and shield. It was a subtle but noticeable improvement.
Now PS Audio has regenerators that take the house wiring out of the picture. Using well engineered shielded cords from the regenerator to 10s of thousands of dollars of kit seems logical to me and it seems foolish to me to spend 10s of thousands of dollars on excellent equipment and not feed it the cleanest AC you can?? I think people with high distortion speakers and electronics are not hearing the nuances in these upgrades because the improvements are hidden by the high distortion and high noise floor.
PS you might be blessed with a low rfi environment and clean AC in your wall but I'm not!


----------



## Hifi Boy

bigfatpaulie said:


> I think you will get a whole range of answers.  DAVE isn't 100% immune to bad power.  I personally have just terrible power in my home and I use a HFC power cable as well as a PS Audio P5.
> 
> In my case, it makes a night and day difference.  But YMMV...


I have a P5 as well, but still all my cables are stock ones. Do you know if it makes any sense to use a conditioning cable between P5 and the wall socket?


----------



## esimms86 (Dec 8, 2017)

marcmccalmont said:


> Years ago I wired 4 dedicated circuits to my breaker box all in metal conduit, metal boxes and hospital grade plugs with ground and shield. It was a subtle but noticeable improvement.
> Now PS Audio has regenerators that take the house wiring out of the picture. Using well engineered shielded cords from the regenerator to 10s of thousands of dollars of kit seems logical to me and it seems foolish to me to spend 10s of thousands of dollars on excellent equipment and not feed it the cleanest AC you can?? I think people with high distortion speakers and electronics are not hearing the nuances in these upgrades because the improvements are hidden by the high distortion and high noise floor.
> PS you might be blessed with a low rfi environment and clean AC in your wall but I'm not!


This discussion reminds me of the Japanese audiophile who paid his local power company to put in his own dedicated power line for music only, of course. How many of us essentially own the wooden pole that stands at the edge of our property? I assume that when he or his heirs eventually sell his home there will be a bidding war amongst audiophiles!


----------



## esimms86

Reminds me of the old audiophile joke;

“Did you hear that Joe died?”

“No, that’s terribly sad news. What did he have?”

“He had a BluDave, Magico speakers, a dCS streamer...”


----------



## HoloSpice

esimms86 said:


> This discussion reminds me of the Japanese audiophile who paid his local power company to put in his own dedicated power line for music only, of course. How many of us essentially own the wooden pole that stands at the edge of our property? I assume that when he or his heirs eventually sell his home there will be a bidding war amongst audiophiles!


This?


----------



## bigfatpaulie

Hifi Boy said:


> I have a P5 as well, but still all my cables are stock ones. Do you know if it makes any sense to use a conditioning cable between P5 and the wall socket?



I I use a "cheapie" PS Audio AC5 between the P5 and the wall.  I find it makes little difference going from that the CT-1 but there was a difference between that a $2 stock cable.  So, in my experience, using something of reasonable gauge but don't worry too much about filtering, etc.  After the P5 is where to spend the money.


----------



## esimms86 (Dec 8, 2017)

HoloSpice said:


> This?



Yes, that’s it! Imagine being the guy who for decades spends all of his money in pursuit of perfect sound, and then he has an electrically and audibly noisy refrigerator in his listening room! I hope he doesn’t have an ice maker!


----------



## Deftone

esimms86 said:


> Yes, that’s it! Imagine being the guy who for decades spends all of his money in pursuit of perfect sound, and then he has an electrically and audibly noisy refrigerator in his listening room! I hope he doesn’t have an ice maker!



Probably turns off the fridge for an hour while he plays night at the opera.


----------



## Christer

esimms86 said:


> Yes, that’s it! Imagine being the guy who for decades spends all of his money in pursuit of perfect sound, and then he has an electrically and audibly noisy refrigerator in his listening room! I hope he doesn’t have an ice maker!


Don't forget that he seems to listen to at best mediocre rock pop recordings as well!


----------



## hattrick15

bigfatpaulie said:


> I think you will get a whole range of answers.  DAVE isn't 100% immune to bad power.  I personally have just terrible power in my home and I use a HFC power cable as well as a PS Audio P5.
> 
> In my case, it makes a night and day difference.  But YMMV...



I just got a PS Audio P5.   I need to listen some more to determine how much of a difference it makes on my Dave/Blu2.  

Curious what you mean by "terribel power in my home".  What is your THD IN?  Mine is 3.2% and I have no reference to know if that is bad or not.


----------



## Deftone

Christer said:


> Don't forget that he seems to listen to at best mediocre rock pop recordings as well!



Yeah well spotted, why listen to music you love when you can just pick out all the extremely well recorded and mixed audiophile approved releases. It annoys me that some people in this hobby would have the nerve to listen to lesser quality records that get their foot tapping.


----------



## hattrick15

xxx1313 said:


> Just ordered one.



As did I!


----------



## bigfatpaulie

hattrick15 said:


> I just got a PS Audio P5.   I need to listen some more to determine how much of a difference it makes on my Dave/Blu2.
> 
> Curious what you mean by "terribel power in my home".  What is your THD IN?  Mine is 3.2% and I have no reference to know if that is bad or not.



I think that is relatively bad.  Mine is atrocious: according to the P5 it ranges from 4.4% to as high as 11.2%.


----------



## Hifi Boy

bigfatpaulie said:


> I I use a "cheapie" PS Audio AC5 between the P5 and the wall.  I find it makes little difference going from that the CT-1 but there was a difference between that a $2 stock cable.  So, in my experience, using something of reasonable gauge but don't worry too much about filtering, etc.  After the P5 is where to spend the money.


Got it! Thanks for letting me know.


----------



## marcmccalmont

bigfatpaulie said:


> I think that is relatively bad.  Mine is atrocious: according to the P5 it ranges from 4.4% to as high as 11.2%.


Mine’s been running around .6%


Hifi Boy said:


> Got it! Thanks for letting me know.


FYI An older document on the PS audio powerplant premier I had to convert it to a txt file not sure how the conversion went?


----------



## tkcha

Hi  Christer,Deftone   Dont Be A Genre or only Audiophile grade sound quality kind of Snobby Remark.  It is sad  there are so much good music not so good quality and if you dont like low band like Queen than keep yourself. Some might like them old bum like me  listen Heavy Metal and Old classic rock on over 200K worth system but also love classical,jazz and blues. Its not fun to read like Genre or Music Snobby Attitude.  


Christer said:


> Don't forget that he seems to listen to at best mediocre rock pop recordings as well!





Deftone said:


> Yeah well spotted, why listen to music you love when you can just pick out all the extremely well recorded and mixed audiophile approved releases. It annoys me that some people in this hobby would have the nerve to listen to lesser quality records that get their foot tapping.


----------



## rayl

tkcha said:


> Hi  Christer,Deftone   Dont Be A Genre or only Audiophile grade sound quality kind of Snobby Remark.  It is sad  there are so much good music not so good quality and if you dont like low band like Queen than keep yourself. Some might like them old bum like me  listen Heavy Metal and Old classic rock on over 200K worth system but also love classical,jazz and blues. Its not fun to read like Genre or Music Snobby Attitude.



The reason I ended up with DAVE is bec it does such a good job with plain old 44.1k red book material... like you, I am more of a make the music I like sound better person.... yes, my music tends to be highly processed... but lust like I lprefer to look at Warhols over photographs or 3D holograms... no one can reasonably say a Warhol looks real... it is about enjoying the art for me. I guess that makes me a happy DAVE owner, but disqualifies me as an audiophile!


----------



## xxx1313

bigfatpaulie said:


> I think that is relatively bad.  Mine is atrocious: according to the P5 it ranges from 4.4% to as high as 11.2%.



Wow, you really need the P5! I have THD IN of only 1.4 % (THD OUT is stable 0.1%).


----------



## musicday

Is good to see the demand for Dave still very high at least in UK, with at least few weeks waiting order. How many of you own the black model? Does it scratch easily and does it show dust, fingerprints?
Also anyone tried Marantz SA-10 with Dave? Interesting to read about the ferrites and that people are having good sounding results using them.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I use Isotek Evo3 Sigmas for my electrics. I think it provides very clean power. I am impressed by Isotek tbh. I recommend people borrow an Isotek Evo3 Syncro cord and stick it into their power amplifier straight out of the wall and hear what it does for your dynamics.

I have two Syncro’s. One for my power amp and one into the Sigmas. I was sold on them within 5 seconds
http://www.isoteksystems.com/products/performance/evo3-syncro/


----------



## Jawed

musicday said:


> How many of you own the black model? Does it scratch easily and does it show dust, fingerprints?


I own black. Yes it shows dust very well. It hardly shows fingerprints. I reckon it's hard to scratch, but I'm not trying to scratch it. The window is glass so that won't scratch easily either.

I'm completely happy with black and wouldn't contemplate owning a silver version. When I bought my black one I waited 12 weeks a year ago instead of taking delivery of a silver one that was in stock. I listened to a silver one before I ordered, so I know what the two finishes are like.

Dust will get inside, since the holes in the top are for ventilation.

Now playing: Heather Nova - Light Years


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I use Isotek Evo3 Sigmas for my electrics. I think it provides very clean power. I am impressed by Isotek tbh. I recommend people borrow an Isotek Evo3 Syncro cord and stick it into their power amplifier straight out of the wall and hear what it does for your dynamics.
> 
> I have two Syncro’s. One for my power amp and one into the Sigmas. I was sold on them within 5 seconds
> http://www.isoteksystems.com/products/performance/evo3-syncro/



Actually when I say to you guys that I do not own any power conditioning equipment or fancy mains cables I am being slightly economical with the truth. 

No, I do not own any of that stuff.  

But the power company does.

And they have a lovely big transformer dedicated for me and just two other houses just outside my house. 

I know for a fact that my neighbours are away for much of the time so effectively I have the same power supply as that Japanese guy who got his own pole and transformer installed.

And this is it this morning.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Curious about the creator of the Chord Electronics Dave, Hugo and Mojo? Our Rob Watts interview is now online for your reading pleasure.
An interesting read, perfect for when you're bored of X-mas shopping 
https://www.headfonia.com/q-n-a-saturday-rob-watts/


----------



## dmance

I will report that Ted Smith of PSAudio has taken a few pages from Rob Watts playbook as he continues to  improve his DAC implementation: less noise, more SNR, better timing.   The just-announced Directstream firmware update (RedCloud) appears to be more than incremental.  The previous Directstream version's (Huron) sound quality was basically a tie with Hugo2 ...in a review I did for the head-fi H2 tour.
If any DAVE owners can perform an A/B with the lastest Directstream, I'm sure the results could be interesting.


----------



## ecwl

What I found amusing from the Headfonia interview is that Rob Watts went with the DSD/PWM/PS audio approach with the DPA PDM 1024 DAC back in 1994 (not to mention the initial 1989 DSD256 implementation) and then decided to go with Pulse Array DACs instead. It’s nice Ted Smith is trying something 23 years later. That said, Emm Labs also stuck with the DSD/PWM approach.


----------



## Deftone (Dec 9, 2017)

tkcha said:


> Hi  Christer,Deftone   Dont Be A Genre or only Audiophile grade sound quality kind of Snobby Remark.  It is sad  there are so much good music not so good quality and if you dont like low band like Queen than keep yourself. Some might like them old bum like me  listen Heavy Metal and Old classic rock on over 200K worth system but also love classical,jazz and blues. Its not fun to read like Genre or Music Snobby Attitude.



I think you missed from my comment I was not being serious. I am one of the people where music comes first then if it happens to excellent quality it’s a bonus.

I will not listen to music I don’t like just because it’s well recorded. I have been in to rock and metal  since a teenager and still listen to only rock and metal now, most highly compressed and still wouldn’t choose better sounding jazz or classical over it as it’s what I love. Megadeth, Slayer, Metallica etc


----------



## tkcha (Dec 9, 2017)

Hi Deftone!     That was What I am thinking,  you correct my misunderstood so thank you and Respect,  Rock and Roll Rule !


Deftone said:


> I think you missed from my comment I was not being serious. I am one of the people where music comes first then if it happens to excellent quality it’s a bonus.
> 
> I will not listen to music I don’t like just because it’s well recorded. I have been in to rock and metal  since a teenager and still listen to only rock and metal now, most highly compressed and still wouldn’t choose better sounding jazz or classical over it as it’s what I love. Megadeth, Slayer, Metallica etc


----------



## musicday

Ultrainferno said:


> Curious about the creator of the Chord Electronics Dave, Hugo and Mojo? Our Rob Watts interview is now online for your reading pleasure.
> An interesting read, perfect for when you're bored of X-mas shopping
> https://www.headfonia.com/q-n-a-saturday-rob-watts/


Thank you for the interview write-up. I guess the headphones mentioned are MrSpeakers Aeon closed back version right? How do they sound when paired with Dave?


----------



## ray-dude

musicday said:


> Thank you for the interview write-up. I guess the headphones mentioned are MrSpeakers Aeon closed back version right? How do they sound when paired with Dave?



My closed Aeon's are surprisingly nice with the DAVE.  The only cans I have that scale better with the DAVE (Mojo to Hugo2 to DAVE) are my Sennheisder HD800's, but the Aeons are very close.  I haven't heard other TOTL cans with the DAVE though so I can't compare (HEKs, Utopias, etc).  

Aeon's are the best closed cans I've heard, and perfect for the office.  I recommend giving them a listen.


----------



## GryphonGuy

rgs9200m said:


> Quick summary of my question: Can I just plug DAVE into the wall with the stock power cord and be OK?
> 
> How do DAVE owners handle power to their DAVE? Do they use power conditioners or high-end power cables?
> Does anyone use the stock cable?
> ...



In this 21st century of our calendar, if you are in a situation where you have an essentially private electricity supply because you have no electrically noisy neighbours or you’ve paid a power company lots of money to have a private and relatively noiseless electricity supply, you are in a very rare and/or extremely privileged situation. Enjoy it!

In my situation I am in a city where every house has more than one air-conditioner and usually has at least one air-conditioner running during the day and maybe one in the bedroom for sleeping at night. So the electrical supply is extremely noisy and here, voltages have ranged from 208 to 257 volts in a nominal 230v supply. However, the voltage is usually in the low 240’s.

So the above range of voltage, let alone noisy circuits, makes hi-fi audio pretty variable in listening terms. So I needed to do something. For my current speakerless DAVE headphone system I use a double on-line UPS that almost disconnects me from the noisy mains and delivers a constant 240v supply. To filter out the remaining noise from both the outside world and my own noisy circuits with air-conditioners refrigerators etc, I have installed a Shunyata Research Denali system with their Sigma and Alpha range power cables.

The sound quality was OK with the double-online UPS but adding the Shunyata Denali system took the sound quality to a night-and-day variance for me. So much so that my audition of a BluDave combo just didn’t do anything for me in my reference CD set I took with me. Mind you, it was an audibly noisy show floor so I might have been missing out.

So to answer your question about using DAVE directly plugged into the wall, Yes you can and depending on your existing gear, you may find it a step up in audio quality that is anywhere from nicely different to awesomely good (if awesomely is not a new word).

But for me, the laboratory grade power and electrical supply “cleaning” and management devices I installed is a no brainer and provides musical enjoyment far exceeding the standard wall outlet only approach.

It all depends on your current situation as to whether spending on electrical supply management and “cleaning” equipment is worth your hard-earned cash splash.

I hope this gives another perspective with respect to the normal population’s electrical issues for hi-fi listening pleasure.

Regards
GG


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## Christer (Dec 10, 2017)

FYI if the source is of inferior SQ ,it stays inferior no matter how much money ill-informed audiophiles spend on cables, power or any  snake oil treatments that  can not in any way improve matters. " crap in crap out".
 If synthetic  multi-micked electronica studio stuff is the kind of music one mainly or in  really serious cases,  only listens to, there is NO reason whatsoever to spend more than a few hundred dollars or € or Pounds on a complete Audio system  IMO.
If your source material already has severe distortions included in the recording as most electronica has, any 1970s amp or early rbcd player is good enough.
For those with space enough  who want "bang for the buck" there are really  cheap big PA system speakers that will deliver all the  big boomy   distorted bass  you would ever  need.
 Almost every time I get to audition sometimes extremely expensive system in audiophile shops without bringing my own music that I love, I walk away with the feeling Oh my...  what an incredible  waste of money if one only plays crap music that would sound basically the same on any boombox system at Walmart.


----------



## Jawed

So this is a new video:



I won't spoil the video by describing it here. But I will say that I think Hans is on the right path here, he has realised that devices such as those sold by SoTM are not the final solution.

The most important thing about this video, the factor that gives it credibility to me, is how he uses sibilance as a "comparison tool". He talks about improvements that come from various changes to his system, but he finds many of these changes make no meaningful difference to sibilance.

In my opinion, a key indicator that you are solving problems in system setup is how it handles "difficult" sibilance. In my experience RF causes a lot of sibilance problems and I've had absolutely fantastic success on that front. So when he finds a way to improve his system which appears to be due to RF filtering, it provides an independent opinion which I hope helps other people to get their DAVE working the best it can.

Now, someone needs to persuade him to try lots of ferrites on the final USB cable...


----------



## jarnopp

Christer said:


> FYI if the source is of inferior SQ ,it stays inferior no matter how much money ill-informed audiophiles spend on cables, power or any  snake oil treatments that  can not in any way improve matters. " **** in **** out".
> If synthetic  multi-micked electronica studio stuff is the kind of music one mainly or in  really serious cases,  only listens to, there is NO reason whatsoever to spend more than a few hundred dollars or € or Pounds on a complete Audio system  IMO.
> If your source material already has severe distortions included in the recording as most electronica has, any 1970s amp or early rbcd player is good enough.
> For those with space enough  who want "bang for the buck" there are really  cheap big PA system speakers that will deliver all the  big boomy   distorted bass  you would ever  need.
> Almost every time I get to audition sometimes extremely expensive system in audiophile shops without bringing my own music that I love, I walk away with the feeling Oh my...  what an incredible  waste of money if one only plays crap music that would sound basically the same on any boombox system at Walmart.



Dude, the goal is to reproduce what was made as best as possible. Whatever that is. Doesn’t matter if it was recorded in a way you don’t like. If people like it, there is more enjoyment from better reproduction. Period. Ray-dude posted his experience of listening to Nusrat Fateh Ali Kahn after getting his Blu MkII and being blown away. I listened to some. Not my cup of tea, but I totally appreciate his pleasure from it.


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## ray-dude (Dec 10, 2017)

jarnopp said:


> Dude, the goal is to reproduce what was made as best as possible. Whatever that is. Doesn’t matter if it was recorded in a way you don’t like. If people like it, there is more enjoyment from better reproduction. Period. Ray-dude posted his experience of listening to Nusrat Fateh Ali Kahn after getting his Blu MkII and being blown away. I listened to some. Not my cup of tea, but I totally appreciate his pleasure from it.



I believe that every performance has artistic merit (art being defined as the capture and conveyance of some sort of emotional truth or idea).  The performer is working to convey something, the audience is working to receive it, and the engineer is working to capture it.

If a reproduction chain is able to reproduce that, even if poorly captured, it is akin to a time machine and transporter rolled into one.  It is very rare that I don't enjoy listening to some new piece of music and finding that artistic intent.  It may not be for me (so I may not go back to it if I don't care for it), but I appreciate and celebrate what is there, and that it has meaning for other people.  I learn as much about myself from things I find resonances with as from things where I don't (and often more from what I don't care for).  I also learn more about what matters to other people who resonate more with that sort of thing.

In the case of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, listening to that performance with the Blu2 was the first time I was able to completely feel like I was in the room with those musicians and that audience (vs getting afterimages and hints) and got completely swept away.  Incredible experience (and thank you for giving it a listen @jarnopp...not my usual cup of tea either...see the back story here: http://thingssoimpossible.blogspot.com/2012/12/2012-albums-of-year.html along with the absolutely incredible Jeff Buckley/Nusrat coda: )


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## TheAttorney (Dec 11, 2017)

Jawed said:


> So this is a new video:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes, useful video, and I like Hans' down to earth and seemingly unbiased approach.

Shame he hasn't received the Ferrite Core memo yet - and nor has Jay at audiobacon, who's just raved over the Gutwire grounding cables as a low-ish cost way of reducing RFI/EMI, in this case by connecting any -ve signal connection back to the earth in your wallsocket. One interesting note was that the Gutwire didn't help DAVE in this instance (connected to DAVE's RCA/BNC input). Whereas he had previously reported good results with the Synergistic Research passive grounding block connected to DAVE's XLR socket. It's not clear if the particular sockect type is important or not.

There's a lot of discussions on other forums about the benefits of additional grounding. Seems to be an alternative solution to the ferrites or to the SOtM/Pink Faun type isolators. I wonder if these are all complementary to each other or replacements?
Personally, I'm not rushing to jump into Grounding rabbit hole, as this has the potential to go very deep and very expensive (some of these Entreq-style grounding products cost thousands of bucks).


----------



## Whazzzup

Well just listening to lance skiiwalker and I’m thoroughly impressed by pomposity on this thread towards hip hop, rap etc...and what good music is...


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## Light - Man

Whazzzup said:


> Well just listening to lance skiiwalker and I’m thoroughly impressed by pomposity on this thread towards hip hop, rap etc...and what good music is...



Indeed!

 A rather pompous looking "Sponge-Bob-Square-Pants" springs to mind, for some reason?


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## rgs9200m (Dec 11, 2017)

I think I read somewhere that Rob Watts loves the Beatles.


----------



## rayl

Back to an actual DAVE post...  I've had my unit for a week now, feeding it USB from a Win PC. When using actual music software with WASAPI exclusive control, everything works better than great.

But subscribing to the school of -- if you have a great piece of kit, use it as much as possible -- I also view movies, etc. through it -- these are typically direct from a browser (usually Chrome, but the symptom I am about to describe happens with IE and FF as well) -- and uses the standard Windows mixer.  I usu use DSD mode to reduce latency, but again, the symptoms happen in PCM mode as well.

Here's what I am struggling with: I get occasional soft clicks -- at least they aren't loud pops. I am guessing this is the dreaded USB issue, though in the identical configuration except for DAC, I've had no issues with 2 previous DACs.  Here's the even stranger thing -- if I tell Windows to upsample more, the clicks become less prevalent. As a matter of fact, I've been running in 384kHz (most movies are 48kHz) without issue for several days.

I can replicate the same symptoms, and the same workaround, with wav/flac music played through Windows mixer -- e.g. with Windows Media Player.  The lower the sampling rate, the more prevalent the issue. Made it through Mahler #3 1st through 3rd movements twice with zero issues if I set Windows mixer to upsample to 352.8 kHz... Thus I am convinced it's the combination of not using exclusive WASAPI control and the Windows mixer.

I am using the latest Win 10 Creators Edition CHORD driver.

Any suggestions?  I guess USB decrappifiers is my next move, but thought I would ask.  (I guess since it isn't problematic for true music, rationally, one should be OK with just leaving it at 384 for movie watching, but having a glitch irritates me and makes me want to fix it.)


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## rgs9200m (Dec 11, 2017)

I put a Tel-Wire HC power cord on my DAVE and I like the sound better than the stock cord. Just reporting my findings here; (you decide). It's a nice flexible cable too, which is something I needed in my desktop setup. (No power conditioner used.)  Link:
http://www.telwire.net/hc-cord/


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## Triode User

rgs9200m said:


> I put a Tel-Wire HC power cord on my DAVE and I like the sound better than the stock cord. Just reporting my findings here; (you decide). It's a nice flexible cable too, which is something I needed in my desktop setup. (No power conditioner used.)  Link:
> http://www.telwire.net/hc-cord/



I can think of no reason why that power cord can make a blind bit of difference to Dave. Are you really really sure it is not just a fat helping of expectation bias? Unfortunately it is more powerful than you might expect.


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## musicday

rayl said:


> Back to an actual DAVE post...  I've had my unit for a week now, feeding it USB from a Win PC. When using actual music software with WASAPI exclusive control, everything works better than great.
> 
> But subscribing to the school of -- if you have a great piece of kit, use it as much as possible -- I also view movies, etc. through it -- these are typically direct from a browser (usually Chrome, but the symptom I am about to describe happens with IE and FF as well) -- and uses the standard Windows mixer.  I usu use DSD mode to reduce latency, but again, the symptoms happen in PCM mode as well.
> 
> ...


Not sure if will help with your problem, but why not add 40 core ferrites to the stock USB cable that came with it? 7 mm ones should be fine, and they are very cheap not to try them out.


----------



## dmance

@rayl 
Congrats on the DAVE,
Regarding latency ....as you progress up the Chord chain you add taps and taps=latency.  With a BluDAVE you have about 0.72seconds of group delay and this is waaay too much lip sync error to be acceptable.  No browser playback will let you align the output USB audio with the screen or HDMI output ...so you have to resort to a dedicated playback mechanism (like JRiver allows browsers within its shell).  

Regarding the clicks - this must be a WinPC+USB issue.  Clicks are a definite digital artifact of bits being dropped.  Just try the usual suspects in your chain - even testing our other computers in the house as temporary sources to see if its a system quirk.  Good luck.


----------



## xxx1313

rayl said:


> Back to an actual DAVE post...  I've had my unit for a week now, feeding it USB from a Win PC. When using actual music software with WASAPI exclusive control, everything works better than great.
> 
> But subscribing to the school of -- if you have a great piece of kit, use it as much as possible -- I also view movies, etc. through it -- these are typically direct from a browser (usually Chrome, but the symptom I am about to describe happens with IE and FF as well) -- and uses the standard Windows mixer.  I usu use DSD mode to reduce latency, but again, the symptoms happen in PCM mode as well.
> 
> ...



I also had to make the experience, that Windows is a bitch with audio and with many DACs.  This is why I went away from computer audio.

Try the Audioquest Jitterbug and a few ferrites (I do not expect that you will need 40 of them, though). Even though I am using an A&K SP1000 as transport (a good source/transport), the Jitterbug improves the sound quite considerably (deeper soundstage, less "digital" brightness).


----------



## rayl

xxx1313 said:


> I also had to make the experience, that Windows is a bitch with audio and with many DACs.  This is why I went away from computer audio.
> 
> Try the Audioquest Jitterbug and a few ferrites (I do not expect that you will need 40 of them, though). Even though I am using an A&K SP1000 as transport (a good source/transport), the Jitterbug improves the sound quite considerably (deeper soundstage, less "digital" brightness).



Thanks to several folks for the suggestions.  I've experimented with a different PC (a laptop) -- and there is a difference.  It takes a lower upsampling rate for the problem to effectively disappear on the laptop than my desktop.  It does feel like lost (or perhaps just late) audio data as opposed to noise/data corruption.

At this point, my theory is a Windows delay issue. When using WASAPI exclusive mode, the thread gets higher priority so there's less delay and zero issues.

W/o exclusive mode, the upsampling causes the thread to hog more CPU cycles and not get swapped out. At least that's my theory.

I am also guessing that the DAVE has less USB buffering than various USB chips used by other DACS (e.g. others I've used had an option to set the buffer size between super low latency, safe, and extra buffering) but the Chord driver does not -- further guessing that to reduce noise, USB decoding is done by the FPGA instead of a USB chip on the DAVE.

As a first attempt, I've ordered 2 USB reclocking solutions to try (Uptone Regen and Schiit Wyrd). They should be here by the wkend.  Also, I am starting with a super short 1.5 ft cable for the regen tests.... I will also order a Jitterbug when I get home tonight.


----------



## Jawed

I've had similar problems with my Hugo TT and DAVE over the years. Jitterbug and ferrites make no difference. I found the same as you, that by increasing the sample rate in the Windows audio properties (i.e. because I'm using Windows mixer), the soft clicks would stop.

WASAPI from Foobar is a complete solution.

Optical is also a solution in my system, working at any sample rate (upto 192KHz) with Windows mixer.

On my TT with the SD input, which does not use the Chord driver, there was no problem. The SD input also has no galvanic isolation and only supports 44.1KHz/48KHz sample rates, so it's really there for direct connection of phones/tablets.

With my DAVE, if I change track sometimes I get a few clicks within the first few seconds. On YouTube videos this is very common. It seems to me that DAVE (and TT before it, which did the same) is trying to get the PC to do something shortly after the music starts and this interferes with the transmission of music.

So, I have to conclude that the fault lies entirely with Chord. My old PC might be relevant, but this is a common complaint with Chord's USB.

I very much doubt a USB device between PC and DAVE will solve this problem, as the PC itself is being "interrupted" as it tries to send the music.


----------



## Whazzzup

I use TT via antipodes roon core server using HD port no such problems. I have used TT via iMac as well no problems. This ferrite craze I really just ran into perusing the dave thread, Then in combo with bu 2 struck me as an expensive sunk cost to get into ferrits. just kidding around. I have herd the odd tick on hugo 1 via cck...Hpa8 operates well via iMac..  wonder if its windows..


----------



## GryphonGuy

Triode User said:


> I can think of no reason why that power cord can make a blind bit of difference to Dave. Are you really really sure it is not just a fat helping of expectation bias? Unfortunately it is more powerful than you might expect.



No. people do hear differences that pleases them.

GG


----------



## jscmd2000

I didn't believe it until I plugged the Audioquest NRG4 to my Rag. Music sounded clearer, louder, and effortless like a totally different amp.  The difference was more than upgrading to a custom headphone cable worth 5 times more.  I have an extra one prepared for my Dave arriving next week.


----------



## marcmccalmont

GryphonGuy said:


> No. people do hear differences that pleases them.
> 
> GG


First of all Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays "Tis the season to be Jolly"!
Second this is a fun hobby and everyone has the right to enjoy the music they like and the equipment they like, Vanilla, Chocolate or Strawberry enjoy!
Internet forums are a place for people to learn and ask for advice, accept what they like reject what they don't
I suspect many people have a piece of equipment in their system that is relatively high distortion and is masking the small improvements in CREDIBLE tweeks like power cables, power regeneration, interconnect cables, vibration isolation etc. Computers as a source, tube amps, and single driver speakers (as pleasant as they sound) are very high distortion compared to other options and the small improvements above are probably masked by distortion and noise. But all can sound very pleasant and your preference is fine for you I respect that, but in pursuit  of accurate reproduced music trying to recreate live music or what the studio engineer was able to record I'd suggest lower distortion/noise equipment from one end of your sytem to the other including proper room treatments.
Merry Christmas I Hope Audio Santa is good to you!


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## Christer (Dec 12, 2017)

Jawed said:


> I've had similar problems with my Hugo TT and DAVE over the years. Jitterbug and ferrites make no difference. I found the same as you, that by increasing the sample rate in the Windows audio properties (i.e. because I'm using Windows mixer), the soft clicks would stop.
> 
> WASAPI from Foobar is a complete solution.
> 
> ...



The lipsync problem is already there with HUGO to some degree. And one of the reasons I prefer my DAC 2 when watching  Concert Broadcasts online is that with HUGO I can see that the conductor's beat is  sometimes slightly behind instead of spot on, or actually a wee bit ahead as he or she is actually giving a a sign for something that is about to happen.
It can be very disturbing.
It is much less of a problem with my DAC 2.
I have never watched any videos via DAVE. But if the problem is worse than with  HUGO I  also don't think you can fix it with such add ons. The problems lies in  Delay /latency. Jitterbugs  obviously add distortions and are not a solution for this type of problem if I understand things correctly?


----------



## tunes

Jawed said:


> I've had similar problems with my Hugo TT and DAVE over the years. Jitterbug and ferrites make no difference. I found the same as you, that by increasing the sample rate in the Windows audio properties (i.e. because I'm using Windows mixer), the soft clicks would stop.
> 
> WASAPI from Foobar is a complete solution.
> 
> ...



This comment was made by someone on Amazon attempting to discredit those who can tell the difference between a $500 USB cable and a $10 USB cable. “My best friend and I have invested a small fortune in audiofile equipment. My friend Roger called to tell me about the new great USB cable he bought and how it had improved his system. I thought he was kidding at first but then realized he was sincere. Told him I would be right over. Sure enough he had the cable plugged between his Mac Pro and his Esoteric DAC. I quietly listened to a few songs and then asked if he minded if we compared it with a few cable I had brought along. He was thrilled for the opportunity and wanted to see my cables. I suggested that I keep the cables hidden and see if he could tell when his Coffee USB cable was playing. He said sure. Over the next three hours, I swapped cables and played the same songs over and over again with his cable and the four cables I brought over. No volume level changes were made. He rated his coffee cable number 4. The cables I brought over were out of my junk cable bin. Cables 1 & 2 were basic free USB cables that come with components. Cable 3 was an Audioquest FOREST cable that was in my junk drawer because one of the connectors had been stepped on but still fit. Cable 5 was a $10 Monster cable.”

Now I understand how ferrite cores around a cable can help eliminate RF noise but do not understand how a cable carrying a digital signal can really make a SQ difference. From an engineering perspective I understand how cables can alter sound in the analogue domain but in the digital domain it either works or it doesn’t.

Can Rob chime in here. Does the DAVE really benefit from a $500 + USB cable the likes of Audioquest


----------



## Triode User

Jawed said:


> I've had similar problems with my Hugo TT and DAVE over the years. Jitterbug and ferrites make no difference. I found the same as you, that by increasing the sample rate in the Windows audio properties (i.e. because I'm using Windows mixer), the soft clicks would stop.
> 
> WASAPI from Foobar is a complete solution.
> 
> ...



I am not quite sure how you conclude that the problems you have are entirely to do with Chord. The other common element is your PC. Maybe that is the problem. I have never had any issues like that playing Youtube, iTunes from my iMac via a crappy cheap usb cable or from Auralic Aries also with a crappy cheap cable.


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> This comment was made by someone on Amazon attempting to discredit those who can tell the difference between a $500 USB cable and a $10 USB cable. “My best friend and I have invested a small fortune in audiofile equipment. My friend Roger called to tell me about the new great USB cable he bought and how it had improved his system. I thought he was kidding at first but then realized he was sincere. Told him I would be right over. Sure enough he had the cable plugged between his Mac Pro and his Esoteric DAC. I quietly listened to a few songs and then asked if he minded if we compared it with a few cable I had brought along. He was thrilled for the opportunity and wanted to see my cables. I suggested that I keep the cables hidden and see if he could tell when his Coffee USB cable was playing. He said sure. Over the next three hours, I swapped cables and played the same songs over and over again with his cable and the four cables I brought over. No volume level changes were made. He rated his coffee cable number 4. The cables I brought over were out of my junk cable bin. Cables 1 & 2 were basic free USB cables that come with components. Cable 3 was an Audioquest FOREST cable that was in my junk drawer because one of the connectors had been stepped on but still fit. Cable 5 was a $10 Monster cable.”
> 
> Now I understand how ferrite cores around a cable can help eliminate RF noise but do not understand how a cable carrying a digital signal can really make a SQ difference. From an engineering perspective I understand how cables can alter sound in the analogue domain but in the digital domain it either works or it doesn’t.
> 
> Can Rob chime in here. Does the DAVE really benefit from a $500 + USB cable the likes of Audioquest



Rob may comment but he has consistently said that Dave is not very critical of the USB source / cable. For instance Rob says that he has not noticed any benefit from ferrites on the USB input cable into Dave (but I think he does admit this might be due to low background RF in his environment and / or pc).

_*"Now I understand how ferrite cores around a cable can help eliminate RF noise but do not understand how a cable carrying a digital signal can really make a SQ difference"*_. And that is where I am as well. If there is any difference between USB cables then it is more than likely to be a noise issue and the cable cannot be altering the basic digital signal. Noise can be attacked with cheap ferrites. Any remaining sound difference between digital cables is, in my humble opinion, more likely to be a severe attack of expectation bias. This is much more powerful than most people realise.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Dec 13, 2017)

Triode User said:


> Rob may comment but he has consistently said that Dave is not very critical of the USB source / cable. For instance Rob says that he has not noticed any benefit from ferrites on the USB input cable into Dave (but I think he does admit this might be due to low background RF in his environment and / or pc).
> 
> _*"Now I understand how ferrite cores around a cable can help eliminate RF noise but do not understand how a cable carrying a digital signal can really make a SQ difference"*_. And that is where I am as well. If there is any difference between USB cables then it is more than likely to be a noise issue and the cable cannot be altering the basic digital signal. Noise can be attacked with cheap ferrites. Any remaining sound difference between digital cables is, in my humble opinion, more likely to be a severe attack of expectation bias. This is much more powerful than most people realise.


USB cables are unique in that they carry signal and power unlike most digital cables that are signal only. Ferrites filter noise on the outer shield but the better usb cables shield the inner signal wires from the power. So the quality of the dc on your source can have an effect too. I’ve found both the Pangea and the Tripp lite usb cables to address these issues at a fair price. With a lot of listening from my N10 I still prefer the coax connection to the usb (the N10 is a very low jitter phase noise source)


----------



## Triode User

Triode User said: ↑
I can think of no reason why that power cord can make a blind bit of difference to Dave. Are you really really sure it is not just a fat helping of expectation bias? Unfortunately it is more powerful than you might expect.



GryphonGuy said:


> No. people do hear differences that pleases them.
> 
> GG



I am sorry to labour the point but that very same 'difference' that pleases people might still just be expectation bias. This is not Sound Science in here but is there one jot of reason why a different power cord to the Dave might make any difference?


----------



## marcmccalmont (Dec 13, 2017)

Triode User said:


> Triode User said: ↑
> I can think of no reason why that power cord can make a blind bit of difference to Dave. Are you really really sure it is not just a fat helping of expectation bias? Unfortunately it is more powerful than you might expect.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes shielding from external emi and rfi which is real science
Also be careful of your bias the reverse placebo effect is just as strong as the placebo effect, you don't want the medicine to work so it doesn't


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> Yes shielding from external emi and rfi which is real science
> Also be careful of your bias the reverse placebo effect is just as strong as the placebo effect, you don't want the medicine to work so it doesn't



OK, possibly, but that is only the last few feet. What about the rest of the cabling in the wall? But I realise this is a well worn path and I have no desire to side track the Dave thread down that path.

I will put my reverse placebo effect pills back in my pocket but I am sure you know where I am coming from with the need to have the snake oil detectors set to high in this game.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Dec 13, 2017)

Triode User said:


> OK, possibly, but that is only the last few feet. What about the rest of the cabling in the wall? But I realise this is a well worn path and I have no desire to side track the Dave thread down that path.
> 
> I will put my reverse placebo effect pills back in my pocket but I am sure you know where I am coming from with the need to have the snake oil detectors set to high in this game.


Yes I agree 100% we are all trying to weed out the snake oil! but lets not throw  out the baby with the bath water either. As I posted earlier to eliminate noise from the house wiring I used to wire dedicated lines in conduit from my breaker box but since the PS Audio power plants have evolved I use one to regenerate clean ac at my stereo and use well shielded Pangea power cords that are reasonably priced between the power plant and my equipment. You can spend a lot of money on hi end audio and not get good results but to get good results you usually do need to spend good money. This year I found the following products that are world class and are expensive; Blu2/Dave, Clearer Audio digital cables and Focal Utopia headphones. I also found the following equipment that is reasonably priced and is world class (breaking the above rule) Hugo2, Pro-ject CD box RS and Power box RS, Beyer DT 880 pro 250 ohm V4, and Trip Lite USB cables! Again all of our snake oil detectors should be on high but there are well engineered products out there! We should all keep an open mind (and open ears) so our biases for and against don't impede our pursuit of getting closer to live sound. Heck I'm biased against Focal speakers and Focal drivers but I put that bias aside and bought a pair of Focal Utopia headphones Focal has designed one of the best headphones out there!


----------



## TheAttorney (Dec 13, 2017)

rayl said:


> Here's what I am struggling with: I get occasional soft clicks -- at least they aren't loud pops. I am guessing this is the dreaded USB issue, though in the identical configuration except for DAC, I've had no issues with 2 previous DACs.  Here's the even stranger thing -- if I tell Windows to upsample more, the clicks become less prevalent. As a matter of fact, I've been running in 384kHz (most movies are 48kHz) without issue for several days.



If the various suggested external gadgets don't help with your clicking problem, then my suggestion is the free-to-try Process Lasso app. This is designed to improve PC efficiency and reduce latency (Gamers in particular use it to get the fastest possible response out of their processor-intensive games). You can start with its default "probalance" mode (no adjustments required at all). If that doesn't help, then you can tell it that your music app is a game, which automatically puts the PC into maximum possible responsiveness, with no down side that I can find.

In the past, I came across the occasional clicking issue with my W10 laptop. I can't remember exactly what cured it, but it didn't involve any changes to DAVE or DAVE driver. This was all before I started using Process Lasso.
I use PL to improve the sound quality of my Windows laptop, which it does with so little effort on my part. There are many manual changes that can be further made with PL, like allocating a higher processing  priority to your audio app (which I think further slightly improves SQ), but the PL designer cautions that unconsidered manual changes can do more harm than good. Start by sticking to the above defaults.


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> Yes I agree 100% we are all trying to weed out the snake oil! but lets not throw  out the baby with the bath water either. As I posted earlier to eliminate noise from the house wiring I used to wire dedicated lines in conduit from my breaker box but since the PS Audio power plants have evolved I use one to regenerate clean ac at my stereo and use well shielded Pangea power cords that are reasonably priced between the power plant and my equipment. You can spend a lot of money on hi end audio and not get good results but to get good results you usually do need to spend good money. This year I found the following products that are world class and are expensive; Blu2/Dave, Clearer Audio digital cables and Focal Utopia headphones. I also found the following equipment that is reasonably priced and is world class (breaking the above rule) Hugo2, Pro-ject CD box RS and Power box RS, Beyer DT 880 pro 250 ohm V4, and Trip Lite USB cables! Again all of our snake oil detectors should be on high but there are well engineered products out there! We should all keep an open mind (and open ears) so our biases for and against don't impede our pursuit of getting closer to live sound. Heck I'm biased against Focal speakers and Focal drivers but I put that bias aside and bought a pair of Focal Utopia headphones Focal has designed one of the best headphones out there!



Actually, just to admit that I am open to try things I had already put in place to try a PS Audio P10 powerplant. One attraction for me is that it can output correct voltage. My mains is pretty stable at 253v and so all my valve equipment is working at higher than design heater voltages and plate voltages which is not good especially as I have them on about 8 hours every day. That might be one reason why I get through valves! The P10 could save its own cost.


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> USB cables are unique in that they carry signal and power unlike most digital cables that are signal only. Ferrites filter noise on the outer shield but the better usb cables shield the inner signal wires from the power. So the quality of the dc on your source can have an effect too. I’ve found both the Pangea and the Tripp lite usb cables to address these issues at a fair price. With a lot of listening from my N10 I still prefer the coax connection to the usb (the N10 is a very low jitter phase noise source)



If anyone has a few hours they want to fill then try perusing this thread in Sound Science. It did my head in, as they say.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/why-do-usb-cables-make-such-a-difference.855479/


----------



## rayl

TheAttorney said:


> If the various suggested external gadgets don't help with your clicking problem, then my suggestion is the free-to-try Process Lasso app. This is designed to improve PC efficiency and reduce latency (Gamers in particular use it to get the fastest possible response out of their processor-intensive games). You can start with its default "probalance" mode (no adjustments required at all). If that doesn't help, then you can tell it that your music app is a game, which automatically puts the PC into maximum possible responsiveness, with no down side that I can find.
> 
> In the past, I came across the occasional clicking issue with my W10 laptop. I can't remember exactly what cured it, but it didn't involve any changes to DAVE or DAVE driver. This was all before I started using Process Lasso.
> I use PL to improve the sound quality of my Windows laptop, which it does with so little effort on my part. There are many manual changes that can be further made with PL, like allocating a higher processing  priority to your audio app (which I think further slightly improves SQ), but the PL designer cautions that unconsidered manual changes can do more harm than good. Start by sticking to the above defaults.



I am pretty sure it is priority as well as exclusive mode works. But neither mytek or psaudio had these issue. A really old musical Fidelity I had did. I think there is insufficient buffering at the DAC end to compensate for fluctuations. 

As I said other drivers have tweakablr buffers. This one doesn’t. 


I am hoping a reclocker will add buffering. I will know in a few days. 

I do agree the jitterbug won’t help as it is only a filter. I was in a rush and just grabbed it knowing it can be returned


----------



## TheAttorney

I recommend you try PL anyway. It's free-to-try and easy and it should make your PC sound a bit better whether or not it gets rid of your clicks (and my guess is that it has a fair chance of removing the clicks anyway. These types of issues are often borderline, so improving the PC's responsiveness can just tip it in the riight direction).

The other popular apps in this category are Fidelizer Pro (which may help, but requires a bit more effort) and Audio Optimizer (which I haven't tried becuase it requires considerable effort to set up).

Whether or not your incoming ISORegen fixes your clicks, it too should incrementally improve sound quality, but if you do like it, then it becomes obligatory to fret about upgrading its stock power supply for an even better sound


----------



## Jawed

Christer said:


> The lipsync problem is already there with HUGO to some degree. And one of the reasons I prefer my DAC 2 when watching  Concert Broadcasts online is that with HUGO I can see that the conductor's beat is  sometimes slightly behind instead of spot on, or actually a wee bit ahead as he or she is actually giving a a sign for something that is about to happen.
> It can be very disturbing.
> It is much less of a problem with my DAC 2.


Hugo introduces a delay of 34 milliseconds. The interval between frames of video is 40 (25fps European TV) or 33 milliseconds (30fps most of the rest of the world and YouTube).



> I have never watched any videos via DAVE. But if the problem is worse than with  HUGO I  also don't think you can fix it with such add ons. The problems lies in  Delay /latency.


I have no idea why you quote me and bring up the latency topic. The quiet clicks that people report are due to very short interruptions in digital data.



> Jitterbugs  obviously add distortions


That's actually nonsense.


> and are not a solution for this type of problem if I understand things correctly?


For the problem of clicks, ferrites and/or Jitterbug make no difference in my experience.

Now playing: Charlie Parker - Crazeology


----------



## Jawed

tunes said:


> Now I understand how ferrite cores around a cable can help eliminate RF noise but do not understand how a cable carrying a digital signal can really make a SQ difference. From an engineering perspective I understand how cables can alter sound in the analogue domain but in the digital domain it either works or it doesn’t.


It's really simple: there is noise on a digital cable that's called "common mode noise". This noise appears equally on all of the wires in the cable. 2, 3, 4 it doesn't matter. Whether it's a simple SPDIF cable (BNC or RCA terminated) or AES or USB. This noise isn't part of the digital data.

That noise gets into the DAC and causes the "0V" reference voltage inside to wobble, so that it's no longer 0V. When it stops being 0V the analogue circuitry has distortion because the analogue circuitry was designed with the assumption that 0V is always 0V.

So RF noise (which is an analogue signal) gets into the DAC along the digital cable and then that analogue signal interferes with the 0V reference and that makes your music sound bad: you get a general brightness to the sound, you will hear sibilance problems, bass loses its depth, the soundstage collapses and the music seems clumsy.

Now playing: Victoria Williams - Frying Pan


----------



## dmance (Dec 13, 2017)

Thanks @Jawed
At the risk of being flamed by the ignoble masses ...I will make it more plain.  NONE of the digital solutions for Async USB do anything to improve the bits.  Yes, that means all the USB cables, streamers, reclockers, isolators, quiet servers, PC fidelizers, etc. etc.  All these do is change the character of the analog noise getting to the DAC.  Yes, they can 'improve' the sound - but the bits are always the same. What they do is just decrease/alter the analog noise on the ground plane - and as @Jawed says - the DAC's analog modulation circuits alter the sound.

  So ...you thought you were spending money on making sure the bits got to your DAC?  No, the bits got there 100% perfect  all along.  The only thing you changed was alter the analog noise.  Any solution that respects the electrical aspect of the problem and reduces the analog noise is going in the right direction. 

The biggest problem is that test equipment that peeks at the analog output of the DAC is not at a high enough AD resolution to note the changes.  Our ear/brain, however, is.


----------



## Jawed

marcmccalmont said:


> USB cables are unique in that they carry signal and power unlike most digital cables that are signal only. Ferrites filter noise on the outer shield but the better usb cables shield the inner signal wires from the power. So the quality of the dc on your source can have an effect too. I’ve found both the Pangea and the Tripp lite usb cables to address these issues at a fair price. With a lot of listening from my N10 I still prefer the coax connection to the usb (the N10 is a very low jitter phase noise source)


The shield on a cable is a misnomer: it should act like a faraday cage protecting the inner conductors from environmental noise, but it's hard to find any cable where the shield does so particularly effectively. If the shield worked, then the ferrites wouldn't make any difference!

The shield makes absolutely no difference to any common mode noise that's put into the cable by the component that's sending the digital data.

This is why ferrites are the simplest solution for digital interconnects: the quality of the cable becomes irrelevant.

Now playing: Sodastream - Trouble on the Railway


----------



## SuperBurrito

[QUOTE="tunes, post: 13910842, member: 67991"
Now I understand how ferrite cores around a cable can help eliminate RF noise but do not understand how a cable carrying a digital signal can really make a SQ difference. From an engineering perspective I understand how cables can alter sound in the analogue domain but in the digital domain it either works or it doesn’t.

[/QUOTE]

I think many people here would benefit from watching Hans Beekhuzen's video on digital signal transmission called "How digital can go wrong".  Digital signal transmission on a non-optical cable is not sending ones and zeros...it's an analog wave that can be really messed up for many different reasons.


----------



## Jawed

Triode User said:


> I am not quite sure how you conclude that the problems you have are entirely to do with Chord. The other common element is your PC. Maybe that is the problem. I have never had any issues like that playing Youtube, iTunes from my iMac via a crappy cheap usb cable or from Auralic Aries also with a crappy cheap cable.


The problem disappears entirely on Hugo TT when using the SD input. This is known in science as a control: change one variable and see if there's a difference. The HD input requires the Chord driver. The SD input doesn't use the Chord driver.

Apart from that, there have been loads of reports over the years about dropouts/clicks with Chord DACs which are not experienced when swapping to another DAC.

Now playing: Kristin Hersh - Counting Backwards/Handsome Woman


----------



## Whazzzup

I useTT HD port no dropouts, I think the problems with Dave are elsewhere, windows etc...


----------



## tunes

SuperBurrito said:


> [QUOTE="tunes, post: 13910842, member: 67991"
> Now I understand how ferrite cores around a cable can help eliminate RF noise but do not understand how a cable carrying a digital signal can really make a SQ difference. From an engineering perspective I understand how cables can alter sound in the analogue domain but in the digital domain it either works or it doesn’t.



I think many people here would benefit from watching Hans Beekhuzen's video on digital signal transmission called "How digital can go wrong".  Digital signal transmission on a non-optical cable is not sending ones and zeros...it's an analog wave that can be really messed up for many different reasons.

[/QUOTE]
So why does anyone use USB at all.   If optical were the only standard for digital transmission it would eliminate many sources of signal perterbation and EMI issues. What am I missing??


----------



## Whazzzup

well if you use servers like antipodes the preferred transmission is usb, its outstanding


----------



## x RELIC x

tunes said:


> So why does anyone use USB at all. If optical were the only standard for digital transmission it would eliminate many sources of signal perterbation and EMI issues. What am I missing??



Data throughput.


----------



## xxx1313

marcmccalmont said:


> You can spend a lot of money on hi end audio and not get good results but to get good results you usually do need to spend good money. This year I found the following products that are world class and are expensive; Blu2/Dave, Clearer Audio digital cables and Focal Utopia headphones.



Do you mean this USB cable (which is not expensive)?
https://www.cleareraudio.com/products/silver-line-usb-interconnect

If yes, with how many "super suppressors"?


----------



## marcmccalmont

xxx1313 said:


> Do you mean this USB cable (which is not expensive)?
> https://www.cleareraudio.com/products/silver-line-usb-interconnect
> 
> If yes, with how many "super suppressors"?


I’m using their co


xxx1313 said:


> Do you mean this USB cable (which is not expensive)?
> https://www.cleareraudio.com/products/silver-line-usb-interconnect
> 
> If yes, with how many "super suppressors"?


I'm using their Optimus reference coax cable with 2 super suppressors not the USB cable


----------



## rayl

Jawed said:


> I've had similar problems with my Hugo TT and DAVE over the years. Jitterbug and ferrites make no difference. I found the same as you, that by increasing the sample rate in the Windows audio properties (i.e. because I'm using Windows mixer), the soft clicks would stop.
> 
> WASAPI from Foobar is a complete solution.
> 
> ...



Jawed, it appears you are 99% correct. Thanks for your insights and in confirming that my issue is reproducible on other (your) units.  Here's what I discovered:

My 2 USB regen devices came in today and I tested them. No difference.  What is even more enlightening is something else I thought of trying -- it *DID* correct the problem, but has some tradeoffs.

On a whim, I uninstalled the Chord drivers and used the Windows 10 Creators edition built-in class 2 driver (derived from Thesycon code base, which almost every other non-Chord DAC seems to use)...

No more soft clicks when using Windows mixer in 44.1kHz!!!  I played though 2 hrs of Mahler 3... which was more than enough to present clicks in the past.  (Usually within about 10 minutes, I would hear at least one click).

The trade-off is -- for some reason, the DAVE is recognized as a 32 bit only device. If one uses Foobar or the like, no problem -- set the WASAPI output bit depth to 32 and it will pad the data.

But the trade-off lies with Tidal... Tidal refuses to enter WASAPI mode.  I suspect it gets an error (bec if I set Foobar to 24 bit, it reports an unsupported error) and falls back to non-WASAPI.

My current theory is that it is not a "sample too late" due to timing problem (which USB regen should correct unless there's a big gap).... I am a bit baffled by why the upsampling with Windows mixer works around the clicks.  (Maybe it's a missing sample issue and missing 1 sample out of 352k instead of 1 out of 44k becomes masked?)

I am less baffled by why WASAPI mode works -- I am guessing that's the focus of Chord testing and driver development as that's the main mode used for audiophile playback.  This is definitely a bug in the Chord drivers.  (Which I suppose is a good thing, bec it isn't a bug in inadequate buffering int he DAVE itself... Drivers are upgradable.... DAVE firmware [today] is not.)

Undecided whether to use the Windows included Class 2 driver or go back to the Chord driver.  I am leaning towards Windows included driver bec the mixer upsampling is known to have some bad characteristics.... and de facto, most Tidal content is in 44.1kHz, so if I keep Force Volume on, even if it goes through mixer, it will be close to original PCM bits (if not in fact bit perfect).

I don't play DSD content and have not tested DSD with Windows included driver.


----------



## Jawed

Ironically, I had to install the Windows 10 Creators Edition driver last night, because I'd just installed Tidal. This was because in exclusive mode from Tidal I got a blue screen crash in the Chord driver cdh76864.sys. Twice.

It's too soon for me to report if, on my system, Windows mixer USB output with this version of the Chord driver behaves better or worse.

Now playing - Julien Baker - Appointments


----------



## GryphonGuy

marcmccalmont said:


> First of all Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays "Tis the season to be Jolly"!
> Second this is a fun hobby and everyone has the right to enjoy the music they like and the equipment they like, Vanilla, Chocolate or Strawberry enjoy!
> Internet forums are a place for people to learn and ask for advice, accept what they like reject what they don't
> I suspect many people have a piece of equipment in their system that is relatively high distortion and is masking the small improvements in CREDIBLE tweeks like power cables, power regeneration, interconnect cables, vibration isolation etc. Computers as a source, tube amps, and single driver speakers (as pleasant as they sound) are very high distortion compared to other options and the small improvements above are probably masked by distortion and noise. But all can sound very pleasant and your preference is fine for you I respect that, but in pursuit  of accurate reproduced music trying to recreate live music or what the studio engineer was able to record I'd suggest lower distortion/noise equipment from one end of your sytem to the other including proper room treatments.
> Merry Christmas I Hope Audio Santa is good to you!



And there is me thinking that enjoyment is what should be gained from the hobby.

Don't get me wrong. DAVE for me DOES provide highly realistic timbres of instruments in my situation. So I guess pleasing for me is also because the sound reproduction is perceived to be accurate because of the realistic timbres reproduced with my treated system.

Now has anybody got some cotton wool to treat the empty "room" between my ears so my headphone system doesn't echo so much. 

Regards and compliments of the season
GG


----------



## GryphonGuy

Triode User said:


> Triode User said: ↑
> I can think of no reason why that power cord can make a blind bit of difference to Dave. Are you really really sure it is not just a fat helping of expectation bias? Unfortunately it is more powerful than you might expect.
> 
> 
> ...



But power chords do make a difference to me. Whether they are better or worse, more realistic sounds or more pleasing distortion etc my point is that they do make a difference wherever I have been in the world and auditioned systems.

*I am not saying anything other than they make a difference to my ears and not always pleasing.* Of course people have to consider their respective budgets and goals in this hobby. Accurately reproduced sounds from observations is what DAVE seems to do extremely well with 16bit 44.1kHz source material. I think I have even said before "magical" or words to the effect before about my DAVE in its current electrically changed environment. If that means it is still inaccurate, then so be it but I enjoy it very well and when those timbres of acoustic guitars ring true to my ear then I at least THINK that it is accurate and very pleasing indeed.

Regards and compliments of the season to you
GG


----------



## GryphonGuy (Dec 14, 2017)

Triode User said:


> Triode User said: ↑
> I can think of no reason why that power cord can make a blind bit of difference to Dave. Are you really really sure it is not just a fat helping of expectation bias? Unfortunately it is more powerful than you might expect.
> 
> 
> ...



In my previous posts I didn't really address the expectation bias notion. But my statement about power cables being "not always pleasing" would tend to suggest that the expectation bias was NOT in effect. So yes I concede that expectation bias exists and that would surface when your guard was dropped for whatever reason and your system sounded different to you when supposedly no changes were made.

However, I expect I don't have enough brain power to make sounds more pleasing in my head. Having measured my blood pressure before and after music, the overwhelming majority of readings is that my blood pressure is less than when I started listening (the exceptions being Tchaikovsky and his renowned big finishes and other big finish type music sonatas). So I am fairly sure that in my circumstance there is no expectation bias because to have it would mean large amounts of brain processing power to make it sound the way I want it to (more brain processing means more blood and hence likely higher pressure in my body) and this would also suggest fatigue would set in which it doesn't with my DAVE system.

So I concede there is such a thing a expectation bias, just not in my back yard at this time about this power cable subject.

Regards
GG


----------



## Triode User

GryphonGuy said:


> In my previous posts I didn't really address the expectation bias notion. But my statement about power cables being "not always pleasing" would tend to suggest that the expectation bias was NOT in effect. So yes I concede that expectation bias exists and that would surface when your guard was dropped for whatever reason and your system sounded different to you when supposedly no changes were made.
> 
> However, I expect I don't have enough brain power to make sounds more pleasing in my head. Having measured my blood pressure before and after music, the overwhelming majority of readings is that my blood pressure is less than when I started listening (the exceptions being Tchaikovsky and his renowned big finishes and other big finish type music sonatas). So I am fairly sure that in my circumstance there is no expectation bias because to have it would mean large amounts of brain processing power to make it sound the way I want it to (more brain processing means more blood and hence likely higher pressure in my body) and this would also suggest fatigue would set in which it doesn't with my DAVE system.
> 
> ...



In your heart of hearts you must know deep down that non of that excludes expectation bias from the equation and from what YOU are hearing.


----------



## rgs9200m (Dec 15, 2017)

Unexpectedly, after moving from the TT to DAVE (and fearing that DAVE would be more unforgiving in the highs or shriller with vocals or ruthlessly revealing or fatiguing with popular music), I find the DAVE to be  LESS peaky and more relaxing (and at the same time more detailed).
The DAVE is the best of both worlds. It's a nice smooth ride with great impact, speed, and has a great exciting swing factor.

I sometimes resorted to EQ to tame notorious digital highs with the TT (and other DACS before this), but now I don't need any EQ at all.

So far, my favorite headphone with DAVE is my ZMF Eikon (Padauk wood) with a Draug Silver cable.
The Atticus is also fine, but the Eikon's extra definition to my ears takes the cake here. The more forgiving Atticus was my favorite with the Hugo TT.


----------



## Jozurr

Using the DAVE with crossfeed level 3 into my Liquid Glass is so blissful


----------



## GryphonGuy (Dec 15, 2017)

Triode User said:


> In your heart of hearts you must know deep down that non of that excludes expectation bias from the equation and from what YOU are hearing.



In my heart of hearts, it cannot be expectation bias if i don't like the sound a power chord produces even though I am auditioning them to purchase.

Regards
GG


----------



## GryphonGuy

rgs9200m said:


> Unexpectedly, after moving from the TT to DAVE (and fearing that DAVE would be more unforgiving in the highs or shriller with vocals or ruthlessly revealing or fatiguing with popular music), I find the DAVE to be  LESS peaky and more relaxing (and at the same time more detailed).
> The DAVE is the best of both worlds. It's a nice smooth ride with great impact, speed, and has a great exciting swing factor.
> 
> I sometimes resorted to EQ to tame notorious digital highs with the TT (and other DACS before this), but now I don't need any EQ at all.
> ...



The purity and timbre "correctness" DAVE produces continues to astound, amaze and leave me in awe of its capabilities in music reproduction. No EQ. Just the Utopia's and DAVE for me.

Regards
GG


----------



## xxx1313

GryphonGuy said:


> The purity and timbre "correctness" DAVE produces continues to astound, amaze and leave me in awe of its capabilities in music reproduction. No EQ. Just the Utopia's and DAVE for me.
> 
> Regards
> GG



The same feeling here. Utopia and Dave are just perfect together.


----------



## Jozurr

Ive been using the Liquid Glass in between my Dave and Utopias and I feel it adds some weight to the sound while taking off the edge.


----------



## Beolab

TheAttorney said:


> I  was intrigued by the 2.5Ghz spec, so I ordered 5 from Farnell UK yesterday afternoon and they arrived today! Amazing considering it was "free" delivery.
> 
> Unfortunately I had a doh! moment and ordered the wrong size (8mm) which was too small for my 10mm-ish USB cable, so instead I added the new ferrites onto my Supra CAT8.
> This already had 8 x Wurth 1Ghz plus 8 x el-cheapo ferrites (which presumably cover a lower frequency range). I didn't really want to add yet more ferrites to this cable, so I simply replaced 5 el-cheapos with 5 Wurth 2.5Ghz. All at the destination end of the cable (microRendu). And wonder of wonders, I immediately heard improvements of the same type as before - the very first thing I noticed was an increase in depth and image 3D-ness, which is always welcome with my headphones. Caveat: I've only listened to a few tracks for a few minutes before writing this, so this isn't conclusive, but I felt the improvement was obvious enough that I didn't need to go through those tedious A/B swap comparisons.
> ...




you mention the Supra CAT 8 , and i was just woundering if you have unwraped the “gold plated” shielding on one of the RJ45 ends yet, so you get a floating ground? I did this, and it did a pretty big improvment


----------



## MacedonianHero

xxx1313 said:


> The same feeling here. Utopia and Dave are just perfect together.



That's my preferred way to listen to the Utopias. Pure and as little colouration or distortion as possible.


----------



## Christer

xxx1313 said:


> The same feeling here. Utopia and Dave are just perfect together.


IMHO "Perfect" or rather close to as good as digital gets,until you hear either the same combo with BLU2 added into the equation or Susvara.
But the probem with Susvara  and DAVE/BLU2 is that  you need to add a good headphone amp with large dynamic range material.


----------



## lojay

My Utopias have responded very well to upstream improvements for the DAVE.

Let me preface this by saying that I haven't been using the Utopias for a long time. Until my most recent listen, I felt that Utopias had a bit of bloated mids, a severely constricted sound-stage and a cavernous presentation that did not sound as airy, natural and open as say the Sennheiser HE90s or Stax SR-Omega to my ears. A comparatively minor complaint is that the Utopias' treble, on certain tracks, sounded slightly metallic and artificial.

For the past few months, I have moved on to speakers while my headphones have been gathering dust. I have been driving efficient Omega speakers off the Chord DAVE and Blu II (Wireworld Platinum Starlight BNC cables plus ferrites), connected via High Fidelity Cables Pro and Ultimate Reference power and interconnects, with USB input from a highly modified SOtM sMS1000SQ server through the tX-USB ultra re-clocker, all upgraded with sCLK-EX clock mods and powered by Uptone LPS-1 / sPS-500 PSUs. This is a very blissful combination, and is made much better with the JL Audio F112 v2 subwoofer that I recently acquired.

Recently, out of sheer curiosity I brought my Utopias home and drove them directly through the DAVE in the above setup. The cavernous presentation is by far ameliorated and is much airier than before, and the mids sound more natural. I think this is entirely explicable - the main reason for this improvement is the addition of the Blu II, which I know from experience with speakers solidifies image cues and reduces the bloat in the mids that the DAVE, standing alone, suffers. Some might prefer the DAVE alone in fact because the mids sound lusher and I can imagine this will sound great with some modern recordings. But realism and naturalness is sacrificed, and my experience with the Utopias amply demonstrate this.


----------



## rgs9200m (Dec 16, 2017)

I'd be curious to know what the favorite headphones are that people use with the DAVE. (I can see that the Utopia is, but what about beyond these? Thanks. So far I'm liking my ZMF Eikon and Hifiman HE1000v2 the best.)


----------



## hattrick15

rgs9200m said:


> I'd be curious to know what the favorite headphones are that people use with the DAVE. (I can see that the Utopia is, but what about beyond these? Thanks. So far I'm liking my ZMF Eikon and Hifiman HE1000v2 the best.)



I have both the Utopia and LCD-4 that I use with my Dave/Blu2.  I prefer the LCD-4 over the Utopia (as I did when I just had the DAVE alone). The LCD-4 have a great warmth that is missing from the Utopia.


----------



## jlbrach

the 3 best IMHO in order of preference would be Abyss Phi/LCD-4/Utopia with honorable mention to the HE1000v2.....I only briefly heard the Susvara at canjam and have never heard the stax


----------



## rgs9200m

Thanks for that. It sounds like you use the Moon 430 amp with the DAVE (correct me if I'm wrong; I was actually thinking of going that route in the future). Happy xmas.


----------



## jlbrach

I tend to use the Dave/blu combo without the 430 more often than not.....very different sound with the 430 which is a superb amp


----------



## TheAttorney

Beolab said:


> you mention the Supra CAT 8 , and i was just woundering if you have unwraped the “gold plated” shielding on one of the RJ45 ends yet, so you get a floating ground? I did this, and it did a pretty big improvment



Well.I do enjoy free tweaks so thank you for the idea, but in this case I'm hesitant because...

I can't see how I could do this without damaging the cable.

I already have 20+ ferrites on my cable which make it awkward to manoeuvre now, and I'd expect the ferrites to give much the same improvements as a floating ground - maybe more as they affect all the wires.
Have you compared floating ground with ferrites? Do they comlement or replace each other?


----------



## rgs9200m (Dec 17, 2017)

Do those ferrites put any pressure on a good USB cable like an audioquest diamond? I wouldn't want to make any physical mark on it or squeeze it.

 And how many are needed per meter of cable length and where should they be placed on the cable?

And could someone please point me to any impressions on the sonics here on headfi or elsewhere? I didn't see much in a quick google search. I see lots of theoretical technical reasons, but I have not seen much in the way of listening impressions.

Thanks for any comments on all my questions here.


----------



## Jawed

You don't need to use a good USB cable with your ferrites. The white USB cable that comes with DAVE is all you need. Put 20 of these on the cable nearest to DAVE:

https://www.amazon.co.uk//dp/B01N4U91RS

that's two packs. They should all be next to each other and it doesn't matter if they touch each other. Just make sure they're all close to DAVE. You don't need to cover the entire cable. You should not space them along the entire length of the cable.

For me the sound quality improvement was huge, thousands of pounds worth. I've written lots about it on this and the Blu 2 thread. So have a few others.

Now playing : Cinematic Orchestra - Man With A Movie Camera soundtrack


----------



## tunes

So would you say that a $25 investment in 20 ferrite cores on the stock USB cable would render as much SQ enhancement as an over $400 investment in an Audioqest Diamond USB cable?

As far as power conditioners, isn’t there a device that can measure how clean or dirty the mains power is coming out of each home?  It would be a waste to spend $3500 on a PS 5 if there wasn’t a real audible difference.  Also, doesn’t it depend on time of day you listen and what other appliances share the load??


Triode User said:


> Look guys, for the power consumption of the Dave or indeed Blu2 one could use bell wire or lighting flex to power them from the mains and yet the special cables stress OFC credentials for improved current handling capabilities, gold plated connections etc etc. And I f they have any shielding capabilities then remember that is only the last 3 feet after the electricity leaves the wall. What about the tens of feet of cable in the wall? Don’t forget that noise, if any, can be filtered out of a mains cable by some cheap ferrites if needed (although I think Rob W has always said they are not needed on mains cables so I think that tells us something).
> 
> The brain is always going to make the ears believe that the fat brightly coloured cable sounds better no doubt helped by the fat price tag. Sorry but I can’t believe otherwise intelligent people buy these cables.


----------



## rayl

tunes said:


> So would you say that a $25 investment in 20 ferrite cores on the stock USB cable would render as much SQ enhancement as an over $400 investment in an Audioqest Diamond USB cable?
> 
> As far as power conditioners, isn’t there a device that can measure how clean or dirty the mains power is coming out of each home?  It would be a waste to spend $3500 on a PS 5 if there wasn’t a real audible difference.  Also, doesn’t it depend on time of day you listen and what other appliances share the load??



FWIW Amazon stocks the AudioQuest Diamond usb with amazon fulfillment... so one can always try it and return if no go.

(I am not an AQ owner nor hater, so no agenda here...just info that may be helpful...)


----------



## Jawed

tunes said:


> So would you say that a $25 investment in 20 ferrite cores on the stock USB cable would render as much SQ enhancement as an over $400 investment in an Audioqest Diamond USB cable?


Far, far more.

Now playing: Wolf Larsen - Kitchen Door


----------



## TheAttorney

rgs9200m said:


> Do those ferrites put any pressure on a good USB cable like an audioquest diamond? I wouldn't want to make any physical mark on it or squeeze it.
> .



Yes they can mark the cable, depending on how the cable grip at each end of the ferrite is designed - bearing in mind that a tight fit is recommended for best performance Some ferrites have no grips, some like Topnisus have substantial, stiff grips.
The Wurth grips are less stiff than Topnisus, but are thinner - they did slightly mark the mesh finish of my pricey TQ Black Diamond USB. This didn't bother me much as I have no intention of selling it on, but be warned.

I've not compared whether my TQ USB cable with about 20 ferrites is any better than the stock USB with same number of ferrites. But my inclination to to follow romaz's comment a while back that there must be more to a digital cable then just RFI rejection.


----------



## tunes

TheAttorney said:


> Yes they can mark the cable, depending on how the cable grip at each end of the ferrite is designed - bearing in mind that a tight fit is recommended for best performance Some ferrites have no grips, some like Topnisus have substantial, stiff grips.
> The Wurth grips are less stiff than Topnisus, but are thinner - they did slightly mark the mesh finish of my pricey TQ Black Diamond USB. This didn't bother me much as I have no intention of selling it on, but be warned.
> 
> I've not compared whether my TQ USB cable with about 20 ferrites is any better than the stock USB with same number of ferrites. But my inclination to to follow romaz's comment a while back that there must be more to a digital cable then just RFI rejection.


So I suppose the best compromise between price/performance with the additional inexpensive 20 ferrite upgrade and a slightly better USB cable than stock would make sense. Any recommendations for a reasonably priced higher quality USB cable over stock?


----------



## rgs9200m (Dec 18, 2017)

I also have the Wireworld Starlight 7 which performs well to my ears and is very well constructed. $120 for 2 meters.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004M66QTW/ref=asc_df_B004M66QTW5306343/?tag=


----------



## TheAttorney

If I was starting from scratch, I'd first get a reference point with stock cable with lots of ferrites. Then bring in a more expensive cable as try-before-you-buy, then only buy it if you hear an worthwhile improvement. 
I've not compared USB cables for 2 or 3 years since I bought my TQ. But the current flavour of month USB cable at a not insane price is the Phasure Lush at about $270, particularly if you're after a warmer/richer presentation.


----------



## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> If I was starting from scratch, I'd first get a reference point with stock cable with lots of ferrites. Then bring in a more expensive cable as try-before-you-buy, then only buy it if you hear an worthwhile improvement.
> I've not compared USB cables for 2 or 3 years since I bought my TQ. But the current flavour of month USB cable at a not insane price is the Phasure Lush at about $270, particularly if you're after a warmer/richer presentation.



I agree with what you in the first part of that. It is sensible advice.

But how can a USB cable give a "warmer/richer presentation"? I am assuming by filtering out RF or EMI in which case it might be that it still might be cheaper to look at ferrites first.


----------



## rgs9200m

OK, now my LCD4 may have taken the top spot after fooling around with cables to find the best match (the winner was my Norne Draug 2). So sweet. No glare. No EQ needed.


----------



## Jawed

TheAttorney said:


> But my inclination to to follow romaz's comment a while back that there must be more to a digital cable then just RFI rejection.


If you're using enough ferrites then they make the quality of the digital cable entirely irrelevant. Jitter in the digital signal has no effect on Chord DACs, so there's no other problem left to solve.

I'm lucky because I can compare USB and optical connections from my computer direct into DAVE, so I can "measure" whether I have enough ferrites by listening. Also, since I am using headphones direct from DAVE, there's no mains-powered power amp to introduce RF problems.

Most people posting about things like SoTM gear or ISO Regen or clocking or grounding SMPSs have not compared their "ultimate" setup with one that is purely optical on headphones direct from their DAC. Remembering to disconnect the electrical connection from their DAC while listening to optical, since RF on the electrical connection will degrade the sound quality of the optical connection (since the RF noise still gets into the DAC via the electrical cable).

Now playing: London Grammar - Metal & Dust


----------



## rayl

Jawed said:


> If you're using enough ferrites then they make the quality of the digital cable entirely irrelevant. Jitter in the digital signal has no effect on Chord DACs, so there's no other problem left to solve.
> 
> I'm lucky because I can compare USB and optical connections from my computer direct into DAVE, so I can "measure" whether I have enough ferrites by listening. Also, since I am using headphones direct from DAVE, there's no mains-powered power amp to introduce RF problems.
> 
> ...



I’ve never tried it, but if jitter is not an issue, why not just use toslink from a sound card instead of usb? (If there are cards with wasapi)

I’ve avoided toslink for jitter concerns, but if truly not an issue...


----------



## Jawed

rayl said:


> I’ve never tried it, but if jitter is not an issue, why not just use toslink from a sound card instead of usb?


Optical doesn't support all the sample rates. So on my computer there's no support for 88.2KHz or 176.4KHz (this is a fault of the Realtek audio hardware/driver) or any sample rate higher than 192KHz. 192KHz is the normal limit. I own almost no music at sample rates that optical doesn't work with, so it isn't a big problem. But I use USB just because I have no limits on what music I can play. 

Looking forward to Rob's Davina test music...

(Though Chord DACs won't play my mono and 32KHz music files, which is a bit annoying - so they have to go through Windows Mixer).



> (If there are cards with wasapi)


I personally wouldn't use a lack of WASAPI support as a reason not to use optical.



> I’ve avoided toslink for jitter concerns, but if truly not an issue...


It seems you have the option. DAVE comes with a 1m optical cable in the box. Just try it.

London Grammar - Wild Eyed


----------



## dmance

rayl said:


> I’ve never tried it, but if jitter is not an issue, why not just use toslink from a sound card instead of usb? (If there are cards with wasapi)
> 
> I’ve avoided toslink for jitter concerns, but if truly not an issue...



I believe accurate clocking is an issue - related to jitter.  With TOSLINK the source device (CD player, PC, etc.) clocks the data ...whereas with USB, its asynchronous so the DAC's much more accurate clock requests the samples.  Perhaps now all this is moot since most DACs have excellent jitter reduction regardless of SPDIF source.  So, for me, the real basis for using USB is that its ubiquitous across all PC devices (obviously).


----------



## ecwl

dmance said:


> I believe accurate clocking is an issue - related to jitter.  With TOSLINK the source device (CD player, PC, etc.) clocks the data ...whereas with USB, its asynchronous so the DAC's much more accurate clock requests the samples.  Perhaps now all this is moot since most DACs have excellent jitter reduction regardless of SPDIF source.  So, for me, the real basis for using USB is that its ubiquitous across all PC devices (obviously).


My understanding is that even though most DACs have excellent jitter rejection/reduction from Toslink, inevitably, the de-jitter mechanism would still create noise internally in the DAC that'll mess with the final output. I think this is one of the reasons why Chord DACs use Pulse Array DACs so that these phenomenon would not increase jitter, as opposed to DSD/PWM DACs or chip-based DACs.


----------



## TheAttorney (Dec 19, 2017)

Triode User said:


> But how can a USB cable give a "warmer/richer presentation"? I am assuming by filtering out RF or EMI in which case it might be that it still might be cheaper to look at ferrites first.



Personally, I prefer not to attribute tonal characteristics to cables (analogue or digital). I typically hear differences in the handling of detail, dynamics, transients etc, which may sometimes appear to affect tone (e.g.what I consider to be HFsmearing may give the impression of a brighter tone, but the tonal aspect I feel is a secondary side effect, not the true difference).

But many, many enthusiasts do like to attribute tonal qualities to cables, possibly because that might be the first thing that strikes them. So I'm relaying the comments of many enthusiasts that have commented that the Lush USB cable is particularly warm sounding. A good example, and also a good summary of one person's view on a multi USB cable shoot out, is Jay's review at audiobacon of the Curious USB cable compared to several others, including Lush, at widely different price points.

However, Jay is another one who has not yet received the Ferrites memo, so unfortunately we don't know how his opinion would have altered if all the cables had had lots of ferrites


----------



## rgs9200m (Dec 19, 2017)

I would say the going price for a used DAVE in very good condition is about $7000 to $7500 (for silver at least). Maybe black is a bit more ($100-$200?) since the wait for new one is a little longer I've heard.

Actually, the silver model in the flesh is very nice IMHO since it's not at all distracting/ brightish/aluminumy, but a nice deep darkish metallic (that looks thick and solid and a bit 3D) that I find nice to look at (all subjective here). The silver doesn't look cheap at all.

And the black still has lots of silver buttons that stand out more. I prefer the of-a-piece look of the silver now since it looks like it was milled from a solid block of silver.

I actually care more about how my electronics look more than my headphones since when I'm listening to music I can see the equipment, but I can't see the headphones.

Anyway, everyone should really hear how great the DAVE/LCD4 combo is. I can even listen to all my Beatles stuff (including lots of rare stuff / alternative unreleased versions/recording sessions that are now available) with great depth and reach with no annoying digital glare or brashness). It's the next best thing to DSD.

I use NO EQ AT ALL with any of my headphones with any of my music with the DAVE.

Essentially miraculous.

OK, blogging finished here...


----------



## bigfatpaulie

That's likely fair.


----------



## Triode User

rgs9200m said:


> I would say the going price for a used DAVE in very good condition is about $7000 to $7500 (for silver at least). Maybe black is a bit more ($100-$200?) since the wait for new one is a little longer I've heard.



The used price in the UK if and when they come up is about £6,000 in perfect condition.


----------



## rgs9200m

Interesting that it is more costly in Britain than in the US. Maybe it's a currency thing.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

Canadian list is well over $14k as well.


----------



## xxx1313

rgs9200m said:


> Interesting that it is more costly in Britain than in the US. Maybe it's a currency thing.


It is more a VAT thing probably. Europeans pay much tax.


----------



## rgs9200m

Sympathies on the VAT to all Eurofriends here. Time to listen to Taxman on Revolver.


----------



## rayl

Jawed said:


> Ironically, I had to install the Windows 10 Creators Edition driver last night, because I'd just installed Tidal. This was because in exclusive mode from Tidal I got a blue screen crash in the Chord driver cdh76864.sys. Twice.
> 
> It's too soon for me to report if, on my system, Windows mixer USB output with this version of the Chord driver behaves better or worse.
> 
> Now playing - Julien Baker - Appointments



To close out my soft clicks with Chord Windows 10 Creators drivers exploration...  I ended up putting Windows mixer through an S/PDIF converter, which while limited to 192kHz is fine as I only intend to have Windows mixer for 44.1kHz setting.

I can either go direct USB for Tidal or through S/PDIF as well (as I don't have > 192 content). With my very short cable w/2 ferrites, I don't notice negative impacts with BNC input, but I've never had a noisy RF environment here.

To conclude, my findings are:

1. There is indeed a bug with Chord Win drivers that causes soft clicks when playing through Windows mixer at lower sampling rates (essentially anything < 352.8kHz)
2. WASAPI mode with Chord drivers is fine even at 44.1kHz. And WASAPI mode works correctly with Tidal, reporting 16, 24 and 32 bit word size support (see #4 below)
3. Win 10 Creators stock drivers work fine with Windows mixer and DAVE, even at 44.1kHz
4. But DAVE does not work 100% correctly with Windows 10 Creators stock drivers in WASAPI mode. The issue seems to be that DAVE reports itself as supporting 32 bit *only* at various sampling rates when using Win 10 Creators stock driver.  For something like foobar2000, that's fine -- foobar will just pad to 32 bits. But Tidal insists on matching the word size, else it falls back to Windows mixer mode. By comparison, stock Win 10 Creators driver with S/PDIF converter reports both 16 and 24 bits support and works correctly with Tidal.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions. I am at peace. Though I really wish Chord would fix the Win drivers in Win mixer mode.  It's incredible that we put up with these glitches when we like the underlying product (as it sounds like this has been a driver bug for several generations of Chord DACs), but would immediately chuck a lesser product out of irritation....


----------



## Triode User

rayl said:


> To close out my soft clicks with Chord Windows 10 Creators drivers exploration...  I ended up putting Windows mixer through an S/PDIF converter, which while limited to 192kHz is fine as I only intend to have Windows mixer for 44.1kHz setting.
> 
> I can either go direct USB for Tidal or through S/PDIF as well (as I don't have > 192 content). With my very short cable w/2 ferrites, I don't notice negative impacts with BNC input, but I've never had a noisy RF environment here.
> 
> ...



Have you tried contacting Chord direct or through your dealer with problem you appear to be having? Or even message Rob Watts diredt on here?


----------



## rayl

Triode User said:


> Have you tried contacting Chord direct or through your dealer with problem you appear to be having? Or even message Rob Watts diredt on here?


I was headed down that path until jawed mentioned same issues with all generations of chord DACs in his hands. It clearly, in my opinion, is a driver bug as using Microsoft driver had no clicks. If it has existed for years, I don’t expect a quick fix. 

Similarly getting the hardware to report 16 and 24 bit support won’t happen as the firmware is non upgradable.


----------



## tkcha (Dec 23, 2017)

Hi  All the Dave owners or lovers.  I have one genuine question Dave have inferior dsd sound quality compared to same price range DAC, or lower for me It is real concern.  Because PCM sound is great but DSD is so so at best. I compared to Holo spring KTE level 3 overall Dave is better DAC for sure but DSD play back Holo had better texture,tone,which it brings out more  Analog sound like but here head-fi nobody say or write about it.  So every owner here totally happy with Dave DSD play back?


----------



## Natronious

@tkcha, you are likely aware, but just to be safe, are you selecting the DSD+ setting on the DAVE? DSD playback is possible in PCM+ mode, but is not optimized. The manual points out that the signal is 'decimated', when feeding DSD signals to DAVE in PCM+ mode.

Interesting too to read that for streaming video, it is recommended to use DSD+ mode, as there is a 'lower delay'.


----------



## MacedonianHero

tkcha said:


> Hi  All the Dave owners or lovers.  I have one genuine question Dave have inferior dsd sound quality compared to same price range DAC, or lower for me It is real concern.  Because PCM sound is great but DSD is so so at best. I compared to Holo spring KTE level 3 overall Dave is better DAC for sure but DSD play back Holo had better texture,tone,which it brings out more  Analog sound like but here head-fi nobody say or write about it.  So every owner here totally happy with Dave DSD play back?



I absolutely love the L3 Holo Spring KTE DAC and under $5k its hard to beat! But after having both there is a clear advantage for both PCM and DSD for the DAVE. Remember you have to set the DAVE to DSD playback? The differences were quite profound with all of my headphones on hand, from the Abyss-Phi, to the LCD-4, HD800S and Utopia (among others).


----------



## rgs9200m (Dec 24, 2017)

I asked this question a few months ago (about DSD and DAVE) since I have lots of SACDs and an EMM xds1 cdp. Yep, the EMM is amazingly real on DSD/SACD, but the DAVE is wonderful and handy and fits nicely on a desk. So for now, I kind of need both, even though it's inconvenient.
But I still maintain that DSD done right lifts another layer from the sound that is significantly closer to real life. There is nothing like it as I hear things.

[And of course, only a fraction of the (mostly popular) music I listen to is in SACD, so PCM still take precedence. If you like classical or jazz, you are in luck because of the wealth of DSD in these genres.]

I'd love to dispense with my discs and just go fully PCM, but I just can't give up the truth in sound that I only hear in SACD. Even hi-res PCM doesn't come close.
(Someday I may rip my SACDs, but it's a painful process and I'm too lazy for the moment.)

EMM, Playback Designs, and Esoteric sound the most brilliant on SACD to me. I have not heard the Holo or the other ones, so I can't comment. DAVE is very good, but it does not match EMM in DSD for me.


----------



## tkcha (Dec 24, 2017)

And also rob watt said he doesnt think DSD is that important and just for convenient . So my gut feeling Dave is not design aim for good DSD play back but more PCM. That is too bad I like  PCM sound Dave but not DSD.
Because I have over 3000 DSD Album and love the sound of them so much. So I think might be look at Lampi GG is other candidates and anybody can recommend other than Dave, Lampi GG on same price range. Thank you for advance! I almost forgot already listened Bricasti M1se, MSB analog,DCS rosoini DAC with clock but no Total DAC,Esoteric D-02X but I like K-01X sound but I dont need cd/sacd player so not my option.


----------



## Rob Watts

tkcha said:


> And also rob watt said he doesnt think DSD is that important and just for convenient . So my gut feeling Dave is not design aim for good DSD play back but more PCM. That is too bad I like  PCM sound Dave but not DSD.
> Because I have over 3000 DSD Album and love the sound of them so much. So I think might be look at Lampi GG is other candidates and anybody can recommend other than Dave, Lampi GG on same price range. Thank you for advance! I almost forgot already listened Bricasti M1se, MSB analog,DCS rosoini DAC with clock but no Total DAC,Esoteric D-02X but I like K-01X sound but I dont need cd/sacd player so not my option.



I have to disagree with you here; DSD playback on Dave in measurement terms is identical to the digital domain performance of the DSD 64 signal - and no other DAC can do this. The downside to DSD is that it is innately flawed compared to PCM; but to do PCM properly requires considerable effort. So DSD sounds as good as you will ever get via Dave (IMHO); but because PCM is so much better handled with Dave the innate limitations of DSD becomes much more obvious.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Rob Watts said:


> I have to disagree with you here; DSD playback on Dave in measurement terms is identical to the digital domain performance of the DSD 64 signal - and no other DAC can do this. The downside to DSD is that it is innately flawed compared to PCM; but to do PCM properly requires considerable effort. So DSD sounds as good as you will ever get via Dave (IMHO); but because PCM is so much better handled with Dave the innate limitations of DSD becomes much more obvious.



FWIW, DSD on the DAVE is the best I've heard DSD as well.


----------



## marcmccalmont

To my ear it is not dsd that is special I prefer pcm wav files but there are lots of beautiful recordings that were encoded in dsd not pcm, a shame since the pcm recording would have been better. Marketing hype in hi end Audio!


----------



## audio_1

rgs9200m said:


> I asked this question a few months ago (about DSD and DAVE) since I have lots of SACDs and an EMM xds1 cdp. Yep, the EMM is amazingly real on DSD/SACD, but the DAVE is wonderful and handy and fits nicely on a desk. So for now, I kind of need both, even though it's inconvenient.
> But I still maintain that DSD done right lifts another layer from the sound that is significantly closer to real life. There is nothing like it as I hear things.
> 
> [And of course, only a fraction of the (mostly popular) music I listen to is in SACD, so PCM still take precedence. If you like classical or jazz, you are in luck because of the wealth of DSD in these genres.]
> ...


I had an EMM Labs XDS1. It sounds great and is musical compared to other CD / SACD players but there is no comparison between the XDS1 and the Dave / Blu 2 imho. Try to listen to a Blu 2 with your Dave. You will be surprised. You could also dispense with your pre-amp if you have no other analog sources. DSD is soft, diffuse, lacks dynamics and doesn't time.


----------



## rgs9200m (Dec 25, 2017)

Yep, I did want to mention that I really should hear the Blu2, as the EMM transport (from Esoteric/Toshiba) is said to be a major factor in its performance.

I just thought I would mention that I am very grateful for the astounding work of both Ed Meitner and Rob Watts who have both brought me great audio/musical happiness over the years. I respect them both and marvel at their genius.

They are both great people who have made great contributions to the intersection of art/science/engineering in this untidy world and I'm in awe of both of them.


----------



## tkcha

Everybody Please wake up. I am not going to diplomatic way to say things this time.   Rob again said that Pcm is his preferred format  than DSD  again. He claimed DSD is freud format so his whatever done to his Dave DSD format is no better than his Pcm but still claim that It  better than other DACs because measured better?  I Do not agreed with  that. From  my last experience say no already . Only I trust my ear and my listening enjoyment.   You still can  denied what you hear and It was best DSD sound ever heard but what you hear, what you believe not always agreed and true.  Why Dave is so big here head-fi but not other higher end forum.U guys just not exposed enough out there.  Not get real great sound quality is all about. Specially DSD play back.  Too bed I still not got answered. Still too little or no love for  DSD  and make believe for certain not real. And  know what really all about ? And last  Analog sound still better if done right even  lower coast.  But good DSD recordings are very closed to analog sound now and Dont tell me MQA sound better than DSD.


----------



## Muataz

tkcha said:


> Everybody Please wake up. I am not going to diplomatic way to say things this time.   Rob again said that Pcm is his preferred format  than DSD  again. He claimed DSD is freud format so his whatever done to his Dave DSD format is no better than his Pcm but still claim that It  better than other DACs because measured better?  I Do not agreed with  that. From  my last experience say no already . Only I trust my ear and my listening enjoyment.   You still can  denied what you hear and It was best DSD sound ever heard but what you hear, what you believe not always agreed and true.  Why Dave is so big here head-fi but not other higher end forum.U guys just not exposed enough out there.  Not get real great sound quality is all about. Specially DSD play back.  Too bed I still not got answered. Still too little or no love for  DSD  and make believe for certain not real. And  know what really all about ? And last  Analog sound still better if done right even  lower coast.  But good DSD recordings are very closed to analog sound now and Dont tell me MQA sound better than DSD.



Your ears is connected to your heart, and If you like the DSD that is fine but does not mean it is technically sound better.


----------



## Rob Watts

The intent is not to re-create analog sound; as vinyl sounds nothing like real unamplified music. The intent is to re-create the sound of unamplified music, and DSD singularly fails and will always fail to do this, as the format is not transparent.


----------



## tkcha

So now case closed DSD for Dave is freud so no love for DSD .  That is it I move on.


----------



## jlbrach

freud???


----------



## Sonic77

jlbrach said:


> freud???



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud


----------



## jlbrach

I certainly know who that is lol I just didn’t see the relevance


----------



## Triode User

I assumed he meant fraud.


----------



## miketlse (Sep 9, 2020)

deleted


----------



## SuperBurrito

I'm really enjoying my Dave.  My current digital source is my PC (USB and JRiver).  

I'm thinking my source may be a weak link.  Any thoughts on what the ideal source would be, e.g. Roon with a NAS and a renderer, Roon with a standalone music server, or something else?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## ray-dude

SuperBurrito said:


> I'm really enjoying my Dave.  My current digital source is my PC (USB and JRiver).
> 
> I'm thinking my source may be a weak link.  Any thoughts on what the ideal source would be, e.g. Roon with a NAS and a renderer, Roon with a standalone music server, or something else?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Congratulations!

When I first got my DAVE, first thing I did was implement Roon, and I absolutely love it (I have a hybrid of local content and TIDAL).  Before the DAVE, I had my Mac Mini home server directly connected to my Oppo HA1 DAC in my living room.

What I did is install Roon server on my Mac Mini home server, physically move the Mac Mini to my closet (where my cable modem comes into the house...I connected the Mac Mini via ethernet), and purchased a Sonicorbiter SE as a Roon Bridge that I connected to the DAVE via USB.

Separately, I bought a RasberryPi for my office and installed DietPi and RoonBridge on that, and another RaspberryPi with an amp from HiFiberry that I connected to my patio speakers.

I now run Roon local on my laptop and on my Mac Mini server at home, and have Roon Endpoints on all my audio systems.  Fantastically convenient.

As to quality, I have seen significant issues with different USB cables connecting the Sonicorbiter SE to my BluDAVE (now tracked down and mostly addressed), but I haven't noticed any notable variance when connected directly to the DAVE.


----------



## Jawed

SuperBurrito said:


> I'm really enjoying my Dave.  My current digital source is my PC (USB and JRiver).
> 
> I'm thinking my source may be a weak link.


Does your PC have an optical output? If so, use the optical cable that came in DAVE's box. Make sure that you disconnect all other source inputs from the back of DAVE, so that optical is the only cable connected. See if you like it more than USB...


----------



## SuperBurrito

Jawed said:


> Does your PC have an optical output?  ..... See if you like it more than USB...



Thank you for the suggestion.  I really never even considered trying to use the PC's optical output since I thought that USB was considered far superior.  Guess i'll have to find a Toslink cable and try it out.


----------



## Jawed

SuperBurrito said:


> Thank you for the suggestion.  I really never even considered trying to use the PC's optical output since I thought that USB was considered far superior.  Guess i'll have to find a Toslink cable and try it out.


DAVE's box includes cables, amongst them is an optical cable.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Jawed said:


> DAVE's box includes cables, amongst them is an optical cable.



Lifatec tos cable is the best I’ve heard and reasonably priced


----------



## Paul Bjernklo

I use canadian Sysconcept which I think is really good and ship to uk with reasonable costs. I have not compared to Lifatec but seem to understand that these 2 are among the best. QED also make a glass one that has great reviews. Have you or anyone else compared any of these as I have not?


----------



## Mediahound

SuperBurrito said:


> Thank you for the suggestion.  I really never even considered trying to use the PC's optical output since I thought that USB was considered far superior.  Guess i'll have to find a Toslink cable and try it out.



According to Gordan Rankin (actual inventor of asynchronous USB audio):

_"No matter what asynchronous USB is going to be better than most any SPDIF system, especially Toslink." _

from: _      http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/05/gordon-rankin-on-why-usb-audio-quality-varies/#comment-133007_

I also think (but am not certain) that USB audio is capable of higher res files than optical, at least on Macs.


----------



## rayl

Mediahound said:


> According to Gordan Rankin (actual inventor of asynchronous USB audio):
> 
> _"No matter what asynchronous USB is going to be better than most any SPDIF system, especially Toslink." _
> 
> ...



It is absolutely true about resolution... that's why BluDAVE requires 2 x SPDIF whereas USB AC 2 can handle 768kHz.

This becomes more of a factor with DSD than PCM....

And on the jitter (optical) vs electrical noise (electrical, be it SPDIF or USB), I guess it depends on quality of your optical output on PC, environment, length, etc -- horses for courses....


----------



## Jawed

Jitter on SPDIF makes no difference to DAVE. So that's not a reason not to use optical.

The sample rate limit of 192KHz is a reason, so if you own music with higher sample rates then you should be using USB (you literally have no choice!).

On the other hand, USB cannot offer perfect galvanic isolation like optical.


----------



## GryphonGuy

Paul Bjernklo said:


> I use canadian Sysconcept which I think is really good and ship to uk with reasonable costs. I have not compared to Lifatec but seem to understand that these 2 are among the best. QED also make a glass one that has great reviews. Have you or anyone else compared any of these as I have not?



I have the QED glass toslink cable and it is a class above the other toslink cables I have used. I apparently I only have plastic toslnk cables until I purchased the QED. So at the risk of being flamed, I guess glass cables transmit light pulses generally better than plastics.

Having said that, the Kimber USB cable I have (KS-2436) is a step above the QED again in terms of DAVE making great music in my system.

Regards
GG


----------



## Jawed

Make sure you disconnect the USB cable when you want to listen to optical. If you don't disconnect the USB cable, you have lost all of the galvanic isolation that the optical cable provides.


----------



## rgs9200m

So far, DAVE is awesome with USB. But I have not tried any other connection. I just decided to quit while I was ahead and go the plug and play route.

About burn in:
My DAVE seemed to take a few days of use and being powered up to reach what sounds like full potential to me (especially transparency in the bass), but now all is well.
I guess this is the same phenomenon as with the Yggy (to some degree; just guessing here).
But now I see what all the fuss was about with the DAVE.
Thanks Rob.


----------



## theveterans

rgs9200m said:


> So far, DAVE is awesome with USB. But I have not tried any other connection. I just decided to quit while I was ahead and go the plug and play route.
> 
> About burn in:
> My DAVE seemed to take a few days of use and being powered up to reach what sounds like full potential to me (especially transparency in the bass), but now all is well.
> ...



The Xilinx FPGA chip is not made from microscopic resistor that needs to be in thermal equilibrium like the ones from Yggy. You probably get a brain burn-in in this case.


----------



## rgs9200m

OK, maybe brain burn in it is. Thanks for the info on  the Dave vs. Yggy innards.  I'm not sure about this. I didn't see much about it on the Dave thread, but if anyone else has comments on this, I'd be curious.


----------



## STR-1 (Dec 31, 2017)

With so much discussion about recreating live acoustic performances on home audio gear on this and other Chord threads, some might find this Hans Beekhuyzen video of interest -


----------



## onlychild

rgs9200m said:


> OK, maybe brain burn in it is. Thanks for the info on  the Dave vs. Yggy innards.  I'm not sure about this. I didn't see much about it on the Dave thread, but if anyone else has comments on this, I'd be curious.



I’ve noticed mine opens up more after about 30mins, but I don’t keep it on standby.  It’s powerd off completely after each session.


----------



## rayl

onlychild said:


> I’ve noticed mine opens up more after about 30mins, but I don’t keep it on standby.  It’s powerd off completely after each session.



Rob Watts has cited 10 minutes in https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-204#post-12596126

Though I leave mine on all the time.


----------



## onlychild

rayl said:


> Rob Watts has cited 10 minutes in https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-204#post-12596126
> 
> Though I leave mine on all the time.



That’s burn-in he’s referring to.  I was talking about warming up the unit for 30mins each session before critical listening.


----------



## rayl

onlychild said:


> That’s burn-in he’s referring to.  I was talking about warming up the unit for 30mins each session before critical listening.



Fair enough if one interprets only literally, though I would propose the inference that burn in time is >= warm up time.... i.e. if you receive DAVE in a box brand new via FedEx and it is ready in 10 minutes, I would imagine that retrieving it from your drawer or even just flipping the power switch should not take more time unless something has since degraded (which is possible as all things age, but hopefully not for a few years!)


----------



## GryphonGuy

onlychild said:


> That’s burn-in he’s referring to.  I was talking about warming up the unit for 30mins each session before critical listening.



My experience is somewhere inbetween. After 20 mins of warming up from cold start there are no discernible changes for me but definitely in the first 10-15 mins DAVE can sound "odd" on some familiar tracks. So I usually just play a warm-up album at lower volumes for 20 mins and then DAVE is ready to deliver its sublime musical entertainment.

Regards
GG


----------



## Jawed

I was looking at this page:

https://knowledge.ni.com/KnowledgeArticleDetails?id=kA00Z000000PA1ASAW

which mentions "BNC 50 ohm terminator", along with these worrying words:



> Terminate every single BNC input/output that you are not using, with BNC 50 Ohm terminators*. Switch these unused terminals to 'Floating Reference'. This will eliminate the cross talk and reduce the noise. Unconnected BNC connectors tend to act like antennae, thus picking up noise.



A 50 ohm terminator is, as far as I can tell, different from a BNC shorting cap. The 50 ohm terminator is presumably safe to use on both input and output BNC connectors on the back of DAVE, whereas I presume a shorting cap is not safe to use on the outputs.

Something like this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BNC-Term...486944&hash=item1c3cb23bd2:g:GzwAAOSwY3RXJMlQ

So with luck these are completely safe to use on all the unused BNC sockets on the back of DAVE and would be preferable to using just shorting plugs on the BNC inputs. What do you guys think?

Now playing: Ian William Craig - On the Reach of Explanations


----------



## rayl

Jawed said:


> I was looking at this page:
> 
> https://knowledge.ni.com/KnowledgeArticleDetails?id=kA00Z000000PA1ASAW
> 
> ...



Wouldn't one at least choose 75 ohms over 50?


----------



## Triode User

Jawed said:


> I was looking at this page:
> 
> https://knowledge.ni.com/KnowledgeArticleDetails?id=kA00Z000000PA1ASAW
> 
> ...



I haven't a clue. Why not address a question to the designer of Dave? ie @Rob Watts  rather than leaping to conclusions?


----------



## Jawed

I don't know! Look ma and take your pick!:

https://www.canford.co.uk/TELEGARTNER-BNC-RESISTIVE-TERMINATORS-50-ohms-RF-and-75-ohms-SD-HD-3G-SDI

I think Rob's talked about using RG59 cables, which are 50 ohm, which would imply you're correct.

Now playing: Heather Nova - Heal


----------



## rayl

Jawed said:


> I don't know! Look ma and take your pick!:
> 
> https://www.canford.co.uk/TELEGARTNER-BNC-RESISTIVE-TERMINATORS-50-ohms-RF-and-75-ohms-SD-HD-3G-SDI
> 
> ...



Pretty sure RG59 is 75 ohms.

RG6, the other 75 ohm cable sometimes used for S/PDIF, is a thicker version with greater bandwidth.  Usually used for SDI video at higher resolutions (like 12G) or over longer distances.... tends to be less used for audio as it's a lot stiffer, but I know that BlueJeans, for example, defaults to an RG6 cable unless you request otherwise.


----------



## Jawed

RG59 is 75 ohm. Sorry, I was trying to agree with you and wrote the wrong thing.


----------



## Rob Watts

Unused BNC inputs are perfectly fine; left floating the OP from the SPDIF interface receiver is fixed at zero, so noise on the unused BNC inputs will not affect Dave.


----------



## ZappaMan

Hi, would there be anyone in Belfast or even Ireland with a DAVE, Hugo2 or Blu2, that would be as kind as to let to have a listen at your home?

I’m really excited about the prospect of owning a Dave, but trying to ground myself by thinking I should hear it first!


----------



## etnt

ZappaMan said:


> Hi, would there be anyone in Belfast or even Ireland with a DAVE, Hugo2 or Blu2, that would be as kind as to let to have a listen at your home?
> 
> I’m really excited about the prospect of owning a Dave, but trying to ground myself by thinking I should hear it first!



If you can own a Dave, just go ahead and get it. Then plan for the Blu Mk2 after.


----------



## ZappaMan

That’s likely the way this will roll! I’ve had a mojo for a month and it’s quite the gateway drug.


----------



## seeteeyou

Now I wonder if that were any good for the standalone M-Scaler in the future?

Audinate releases Dante IP Core for Xilinx FPGAs
https://audinate.com/about/news-activity/press/audinate-releases-dante-ip-core-xilinx-fpgas


> Dante IP Core is available for the Xilinx Spartan 6 family of FPGAs. Support for the Artix 7 FPGA is expected Q1 2018.


----------



## chordguy

Zappaman    ........    Jim Moore of Moore's Hi Fi, Newtownards will be very happy to help you.
He's the only Chord electronics dealer in the whole of Ireland, been a Chord dealer for many years and a top guy.
He has both the Chord Dave and Blu II transport in stock and he has a pair of Chord Sarum T bnc cables too so you should be able to hear the combination at it's best.
Give him a ring and arrange an appointment and he'll have everything set up and warmed up, ready for you to listen to.

Oh, and by the way bring your cheque book


----------



## ZappaMan

You just made my day!


----------



## ray-dude

After a bit of a delay due to the holidays, I finally (cross) posted my Blu2 review: 

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-blu-mk-ii-digital-cd-transport.22848/reviews

Thanks to everyone that shared their experiences and gave guidance as I was coming up to speed on this piece of kit!


----------



## jacc

Great review Ray. Very useful for those who want to drive to the max level of bludave


----------



## zimzim2001

ray-dude said:


> After a bit of a delay due to the holidays, I finally (cross) posted my Blu2 review:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-blu-mk-ii-digital-cd-transport.22848/reviews
> 
> Thanks to everyone that shared their experiences and gave guidance as I was coming up to speed on this piece of kit!



One of the best reviews I have ever seen anywhere.  Thanks.


----------



## onlychild

zimzim2001 said:


> One of the best reviews I have ever seen anywhere.  Thanks.



+1


----------



## penguin69

Hi all

New Dave owner here, in black (that's the Dave, not me - I have no reason to mourn its arrival!). I'm about 20 hours in on it, I was just wondering whether Rob/Chord have specified a specific number of burn-in hours for the Dave?

Also, if anyone is running the Dave with unbalanced cables into valve monos then I would appreciate any cable recommendations. I've just acquired a second hand pair of Quad II 80's and there is no balanced input, and the only good quality RCA's I own are Audioquest Victorias, which are like conjoined twins and thus not so useful with separate monobloc amps! I currently don't have the opportunity to demo cables, which is why I am asking. Thanks in advance.

As a side note, I am getting excellent results from an iPhone Tidal wifi stream into a Neet Airstream device, connected to the Dave by toslink. At 24 quid, this device is I imagine among the cheaper front ends that get used with a Dave!

Cheers
penguin140369


----------



## winders

ray-dude said:


> After a bit of a delay due to the holidays, I finally (cross) posted my Blu2 review:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-blu-mk-ii-digital-cd-transport.22848/reviews
> 
> Thanks to everyone that shared their experiences and gave guidance as I was coming up to speed on this piece of kit!



The ferrite core stuff is perplexing. This article sums up why I say that:

http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/technical-papers/myths-and-snake-oil


----------



## GryphonGuy

penguin140369 said:


> Hi all
> 
> New Dave owner here, in black (that's the Dave, not me - I have no reason to mourn its arrival!). I'm about 20 hours in on it, I was just wondering whether Rob/Chord have specified a specific number of burn-in hours for the Dave?
> 
> ...



Others have mentioned hearing changes up to 300 hours. For my own break-in log I heard major changes up to 50 hours over several days then it was little changes up to about 150 hours. I chose to listen instead of these 24x7 type set and forget break-in sessions people do. My reasoning is that, like children, I want to experience the growing up phase with all the great moments, fun and disappointments along the way and see them develop into great adults. I am not the parent who only wants to meet my kids when they are adults.

Regards
GG


----------



## rayl

winders said:


> The ferrite core stuff is perplexing. This article sums up why I say that:
> 
> http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/technical-papers/myths-and-snake-oil



Not to be skeptical of the article, but ferrites only act as a low pass filter for common mode signals...  So the claim that it can roll off high audio frequencies (under the subheading Ferrites on Interconnects) is very very suspect....  (i.e. reduces my trust in the rest of the article greatly if not completely)

In any case, as folks have corrected my misconception, the noise comes from within the Blu2 itself (though not conducted onto the actual wires), so no amount of shielding can help and in fact, a longer more lossy cable might actually help.   I missed that detail the first time around....


----------



## jonstatt

I received my DAVE on Thursday and blown away by how much difference there is vs Hugo 2 even with easier to drive headphones like the Z1R. More impressions to follow.

One thing I am a little surprised about is that there is no dust protection internally for the screen. Already two rather large dust particles have gone into the ventilation holes and managed to settle on the screen.


----------



## penguin69

rayl said:


> Not to be skeptical of the article, but ferrites only act as a low pass filter for common mode signals...  So the claim that it can roll off high audio frequencies (under the subheading Ferrites on Interconnects) is very very suspect....  (i.e. reduces my trust in the rest of the article greatly if not completely)
> 
> In any case, as folks have corrected my misconception, the noise comes from within the Blu2 itself (though not conducted onto the actual wires), so no amount of shielding can help and in fact, a longer more lossy cable might actually help.   I missed that detail the first time around....



Thanks, I'm taking the same approach - just running the Dave when listening.

I seemed to hear more depth last night, though I had just removed my power regenerators (2 x Power Inspired AG1500 units) from powering the monoblocks. 

My hearing ability seems to vary a little day to day so it's always difficult for me to tell what is a 'real' change or what is me just having better ears on a particular day. If that makes sense.


----------



## Triode User

GryphonGuy said:


> Others have mentioned hearing changes up to 300 hours. For my own break-in log I heard major changes up to 50 hours over several days then it was little changes up to about 150 hours. I chose to listen instead of these 24x7 type set and forget break-in sessions people do. My reasoning is that, like children, I want to experience the growing up phase with all the great moments, fun and disappointments along the way and see them develop into great adults. I am not the parent who only wants to meet my kids when they are adults.
> 
> Regards
> GG



Everyone has their own view about break in or burn in. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind but it is my opinion that any burn in is more likely to be the human brain resetting its own calibration rather than any change to the Dave. 

But like I say, I am not expecting to change anyone’s mind on this. Likewise do not expect to change my mind!


----------



## marcmccalmont

Triode User said:


> Everyone has their own view about break in or burn in. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind but it is my opinion that any burn in is more likely to be the human brain resetting its own calibration rather than any change to the Dave.
> 
> But like I say, I am not expecting to change anyone’s mind on this. Likewise do not expect to change my mind!


Probably a bit of both, a friend once said “shoes don’t break in your feet do” The truth is both do the leather loosens up the sole becomes more flexible your feet form new calluses
I’m sure break in of electronics is the same the equipment burning in and your mind acclimating to the new equipment


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> Probably a bit of both, a friend once said “shoes don’t break in your feet do” The truth is both do the leather loosens up the sole becomes more flexible your feet form new calluses
> I’m sure break in of electronics is the same the equipment burning in and your mind acclimating to the new equipment



 . . .  and if Dave was made from leather I would be with you on that.


----------



## jlbrach

penguin140369 said:


> Thanks, I'm taking the same approach - just running the Dave when listening.
> 
> I seemed to hear more depth last night, though I had just removed my power regenerators (2 x Power Inspired AG1500 units) from powering the monoblocks.
> 
> My hearing ability seems to vary a little day to day so it's always difficult for me to tell what is a 'real' change or what is me just having better ears on a particular day. If that makes sense.



I actually agree with this 100%...there are times when i am just more receptive to hearing and listening than others...at night i just seem to hear nuance better...fewer distractions  and more silence seem to aid  the process...there are times i turn on my music and find myself turning it off because i can just tell I am not receptive....people seem not to realize this as i had a debate with somebody who claimed to dispute this..I know it is true,at least for me and i suspect many others


----------



## GryphonGuy

penguin140369 said:


> Thanks, I'm taking the same approach - just running the Dave when listening.
> 
> I seemed to hear more depth last night, though I had just removed my power regenerators (2 x Power Inspired AG1500 units) from powering the monoblocks.
> 
> My hearing ability seems to vary a little day to day so it's always difficult for me to tell what is a 'real' change or what is me just having better ears on a particular day. If that makes sense.



Agreed. Your mood, or emotional state, contributes greatly to how you perceive the world around you. Audio is part of that world.

FWIW, I use music to reflect my mood whilst others can use music to change their mood. Sometimes I stop listening because the system doesn't sound great or have its usual wow-factor. And I am convinced it is nearly always me.

Regards
GG


----------



## dmance

winders said:


> The ferrite core stuff is perplexing. This article sums up why I say that:
> 
> http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/technical-papers/myths-and-snake-oil


with Dave and blu2, the recommendations were to use ferrites on digital (usb and spdif coax) cables. in this case, there is no degradation of the digital signal - that is, the data stream is preserved.  the article you referred commented on analog cables. i would not put ferrites on analog signals - any attenuation directly affects what you hear.


----------



## rgs9200m

I highly recommend Stealth Indra (or even Sakra) unbalanced cables. They sound amazing on the Dave at all frequencies. The bass is really tight and transparent and the highs have a natural liquidity and fullness to them that removes any brittleness at all that you don't notice until it's gone. These are remarkable cables in my book. If the price is too high, the next best thing is Kubala-Sosna cables, also sweet and controlled.

Check out other sites for used ones.


----------



## EndGameSearch

ray-dude said:


> After a bit of a delay due to the holidays, I finally (cross) posted my Blu2 review:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-blu-mk-ii-digital-cd-transport.22848/reviews
> 
> Thanks to everyone that shared their experiences and gave guidance as I was coming up to speed on this piece of kit!


This really was a great review.  Thank you and well done.  

Although not the intent of the review, this is the final push I needed to list my three month old Dave for sale on head fi.  It is absolutely amazing and truly stunning on it's own as a combo dac/amp for headphones.  However, in my rig (dedicated mac running Roon core bridged to ultrRendu > Dave > WA22 > LCD-4 or i4) I have a hard time justifying the cost over the Hugo 2 I already own.  The DAVE is clearly the hands down winner over the Hugo 2 on it's own, but through the NOS tubes I'm running in the WA22 the H2 is really not that far off.  It's not that the tubes take away from Dave's amazingly transparent signature, because I think it's a winning combination, but they do smooth out the digital glare you can get from the H2 while providing loads of power for the LCD-4's.  To say it in a different way, my tubes add value to the equation for both the Dave and H2, but they add more to the H2 which levels the playing field.  From a cost equation standpoint with my rig, I think I'll get more from Blu mk 2 (or a future m-scaler).  

Feel free to PM me if anyone has questions.  I priced it to move and it's completely mint at only 3 months old.


----------



## penguin69

rgs9200m said:


> I highly recommend Stealth Indra (or even Sakra) unbalanced cables. They sound amazing on the Dave at all frequencies. The bass is really tight and transparent and the highs have a natural liquidity and fullness to them that removes any brittleness at all that you don't notice until it's gone. These are remarkable cables in my book. If the price is too high, the next best thing is Kubala-Sosna cables, also sweet and controlled.
> 
> Check out other sites for used ones.



Thanks for the tip, I shall investigate.


----------



## Jozurr

rgs9200m said:


> I highly recommend Stealth Indra (or even Sakra) unbalanced cables. They sound amazing on the Dave at all frequencies. The bass is really tight and transparent and the highs have a natural liquidity and fullness to them that removes any brittleness at all that you don't notice until it's gone. These are remarkable cables in my book. If the price is too high, the next best thing is Kubala-Sosna cables, also sweet and controlled.
> 
> Check out other sites for used ones.



Stealth Indra? Are you suggesting a cable pair that costs $7000 for a meter for the Dave? or am I looking at something completely different? 

http://www.stealthaudiocables.com/products/indra/indra.html


----------



## miketlse

Jozurr said:


> Stealth Indra? Are you suggesting a cable pair that costs $7000 for a meter for the Dave? or am I looking at something completely different?
> 
> http://www.stealthaudiocables.com/products/indra/indra.html


First thing I spotted was 'grain-less conductor', which would suggest that they are claiming that the strands of wire are single crystals.
Rolls Royce patented single crystal technology for the rotor blades in jet engines, and those blades are mega expensive to manufacture.
I get the bad feeling that Stealth are possibly using some 'innappropriate' wording, so I won't bother reading further.


----------



## Triode User

miketlse said:


> First thing I spotted was 'grain-less conductor', which would suggest that they are claiming that the strands of wire are single crystals.
> Rolls Royce patented single crystal technology for the rotor blades in jet engines, and those blades are mega expensive to manufacture.
> I get the bad feeling that Stealth are possibly using some 'innappropriate' wording, so I won't bother reading further.



More than that, it looks like their copy writing team had a competition to see who could come up with the most ludicrous pseudo scientific jargon, oops sorry, didn't mean to say that, I really meant 'innappropriate' wording. I wouldn't want it to be thought that I was criticising a manufacturer.

Well it made me smile so at least it served a purpose.


----------



## miketlse

Triode User said:


> More than that, it looks like their copy writing team had a competition to see who could come up with the most ludicrous pseudo scientific jargon, oops sorry, didn't mean to say that, I really meant 'innappropriate' wording. I wouldn't want it to be thought that I was criticising a manufacturer.
> 
> Well it made me smile so at least it served a purpose.


If RGS9200m bought some of those cables, I hope that he is happy with them.


----------



## Sonic77

Oh wow! I got to check out those cables.........hahahahahaha sorry couldn't hold it any longer.


----------



## jscmd2000

Only 5k for additional meter!
If you have the money, why not??  I can think of many other less ideal ways.


----------



## rgs9200m (Jan 10, 2018)

The Indras show up in the used market for about $1600 - $2000. (The Sakras for quite a bit more unfortunately.) Many of those available are about 10 to 14 years old, but to my ears the old ones don't degrade at all.
Cables depreciate like crazy, so if you know a particular cable you want, you can get a real bargain, especially with old ones.
I even tried some more expensive interconnect cables like the Nordost Valhalla and didn't like them at all, just too fatiguing.

If you buy a used high-priced cable at a good price, you can usually sell it pretty quick for what you paid for it (or even more sometimes).

Cable discussions for interconnects and power cords are relatively rare on headfi and other headphone sites, but on sites like Audiogon and Audio Asylum (in the Cable Asylum), cables have been discussed intensely for as long as these sites have been around (about 20 years).

If you have a Chord Dave, a couple of thousand on a cable that you can keep for life and never wears out is a cost that can be put in perspective. Many here have several headphones that each cost about this. So instead of one more headphone, try a really good cable that can improve all the others.
That's how I look at it.

And these cables are not the flavor of the month, they have been around and have been popular for almost 15 years now. But like I said, the old used ones are fine. You don't need the new shiny versions (the V10 currently for the Indras). The old ones are classics. If you find a used Sakra, that's even better. But these both sound really special.

Here's short excerpt from a 2004 6moons review of the Indra, of course for what it's worth and YMMV, but all I can say is that in lots of back-and-forth testing with other well known cables, the Stealths just did some things none of the others could, especially in the liquidity of the highs and the clarity of the bass. (To my ears, it's mainly a tonality and texture thing that the Stealths do right, rather than the soundstage thing mentioned here, but I do get that tension-easing thing he talks about.)

From 6moons back in May, 2004...

Inserting one lone 1m pair between my Zanden DAC and Orthospectrum buffer, the Indra differences were neither subtle, tonal balance-oriented or merely different-but-so-bloody-what. In one fell swoop, the Indra changed the entire _gestalt_ of the presentation in such a way as to be patently audible even to my wife in the upstairs area. Forget bass, midrange, treble. The instant change was two-fold. For one, three-dimensional space exploded, particularly in the depth domain. With the Gallo Reference III space meisters sans pareil, this was so obvious as to be silly: _Huge_ space, cubits of air. Far more importantly though, insertion of the cable also removed electronic tension and effort. When you make a fist and press hard, the musculature constricts. Though your hand doesn't look edgier, it feels that way even to an onlooker. I'm using the word 'edgy' not in the tonal domain of treble forwardness. I'm not using it in the domain of image outlines either. I'm using it to describe a very tangible feel in which the music now propagated unfettered, through the air and into the listening room. It no longer felt as though being pressed through electronic piping in little bits and pieces of data.

[ link: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/stealth/indra.html ]

This is a page from the Stealth site with beta testers impressions, again FWIW.
http://www.stealthaudiocables.com/products/indra/beta.htm

This is from someone on Audio Asylum back in 2005 that jives with what I hear:

Hello,
I have a 2ch system which include EMM digital, Audionote preamp, actively biamped with45 SETs. I have had the NBS Black label speaker cables and ics for two years. Over the last 6-9 months they have been slowly replaced with *Stealth* *Indra* ics and Prana Cosmos ics. I first tried the *Indra* after hearinag a demo. IMS, the *Indra*s are extremely detailed and relaxed at the same time giving an effortless air to my system.

https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=cables&n=111043&highlight=stealth+indra&r=&search_url=/cgi/search.mpl?author=Scott%20L&forum=ALL&sortRank=None

I have no relationship with any of this, I'm not selling anything, I'm just a fan of the cables.


----------



## tkcha

Hi rgs9200m. I Agree with you 100 times and 1 more but  headf-fi, regular users. They  really dont invest on IC or PC or even care about it.  Myself I have top of line from Allnic Audio IC and SC and Audio sensibility Signature PC and You can here the difference good to great cable. And I didnt paid full retail price either.


rgs9200m said:


> The Indras show up in the used market for about $1600 - $2000. The Sakras for several hundred more. Many of those available are about 10 to 14 years old, but to my ears the old ones don't degrade at all.
> Cables depreciate like crazy, so if you know a particular cable you want, you can get a real bargain, especially with old ones.
> I even tried some more expensive interconnect cables like the Nordost Valhalla and didn't like them at all, just too fatiguing.
> 
> ...


----------



## thunder 99 (Jan 10, 2018)

Hi guys I am having issues with my DAVE I think. So Sad.
It is giving white noise in the form of a constant volume hiss which does not change with source. A volume change does not produce any change in volume of hiss. And its present in both the headphone out and the speaker taps. Any ideas what it may be?
Its connected to  a PS P10 which I had turned off temporarily because of a thunderstorm. Have changed cables as well.
Any ideas what it may be due to?
Thanks


----------



## Triode User

Have you tried disconnecting all digital inputs so that it has no input and then try listening again?  

What changed between no noise and then noise? Anything or did you just turn it off because of the thunderstorm and then turn it on again after? 

Did you pull all your kit power plugs from the wall as well as turning off with the thunderstorm?


----------



## thunder 99 (Jan 10, 2018)

The hiss is within one channel only (closer to the USB on both XLR as well as RCA). It is also there in the headphone output.
I just turned the PS P10 off from the remote. Did not disconnect it. The thunderstorm was minimal, (more a storm). I did not do anything additional whilst turning it on. No other electronics in the house have been affected.
It is connected to an antipodes DX Gen3 via Lightspeed 10G as well as audeophilleo1 (from PC).
Yes the hiss is still present when the USB cable / audeophilleo is not connected and the only cables connected are the XLR speaker taps which feed into a Vitus amp.


----------



## Triode User

thunder 99 said:


> The hiss is within one channel only (closer to the USB on both XLR as well as RCA). It is also there in the headphone output.
> I just turned the PS P10 off from the remote. Did not disconnect it. The thunderstorm was minimal, (more a storm). I did not do anything additional whilst turning it on. No other electronics in the house have been affected.
> It is connected to an antipodes DX Gen3 via Lightspeed 10G as well as audeophilleo1 (from PC).
> Yes the hiss is still present when the USB cable / audeophilleo is not connected and the only cables connected are the XLR speaker taps which feed into a Vitus amp.



I have a P10. For future reference, using the remote to turn it off only puts it into standby mode. It is still switched on and the full mains voltage is connected to it's input transformer and circuits. There is therefore no isolation in the case of lightning strike. Anyway, I'm guessing you have tried plugging the Dave direct into the wall to bypass the P10?

On the face of it there does seem to be an issue with your Dave. Time now to telephone your dealer?


----------



## thunder 99

Oh really, I turn it off using the Power button on the remote - everything connected turns off.
Yes I have bypassed P10 as well with same hiss in the channel.
Yea I think there may be an issue as well. So sad.


----------



## Triode User

thunder 99 said:


> Oh really, I turn it off using the Power button on the remote - everything connected turns off.
> Yes I have bypassed P10 as well with same hiss in the channel.
> Yea I think there may be an issue as well. So sad.



Regarding the P10, using the P10 remote will only turn power off to each of the P10 sockets by using internal relays in the P10. The P10 itself is still powered up and can be damaged by a power spike on the incoming mains. You can tell the P10 is still powered up because there is still a slight hum from the P10 internal transformer. The only way to fully power down the P10 is to use the switch at the back and even that might not prevent damage due to lightning and you would need to pull the P10 mains plug from the wall to be fully safe.


----------



## thunder 99

Triode User said:


> Regarding the P10, using the P10 remote will only turn power off to each of the P10 sockets by using internal relays in the P10. The P10 itself is still powered up and can be damaged by a power spike on the incoming mains. You can tell the P10 is still powered up because there is still a slight hum from the P10 internal transformer. The only way to fully power down the P10 is to use the switch at the back and even that might not prevent damage due to lightning and you would need to pull the P10 mains plug from the wall to be fully safe.



Thanks for the info! I did not realize.


----------



## Jozurr

What mode is recommended for the Dave on foobar? Between Asio, Wasapi event and Wasapi push?


----------



## audionewbi

I was watching the nvidia CES presentation and saw their VOLTA and I was wondering has chord predicted when do they think they can get the required technology to reach their ideal 1 million TAP limit?


----------



## rayl

audionewbi said:


> I was watching the nvidia CES presentation and saw their VOLTA and I was wondering has chord predicted when do they think they can get the required technology to reach their ideal 1 million TAP limit?



Maybe I am misreading the comment but if it is can you do 1 MM tap filter on an nVidia chip...  no doubt. For pure DSP work, a current gen nVidia will eclipse what you can do on a Xilinx. But an FPGA can do more than DSP. It can even implement your usb interface, etc.... anything pretty much, with the limitation of chip level voltages. 

And GPUs only come on PCI cards. Probably not changing for the high end discrete DAC market— the whole market would be a rounding error for nVidia.


----------



## Jawed

thunder 99 said:


> Oh really, I turn it off using the Power button on the remote - everything connected turns off.
> Yes I have bypassed P10 as well with same hiss in the channel.
> Yea I think there may be an issue as well. So sad.


The first Hugo 2 I bought last year had constant hiss on the right channel. It was replaced. Your report appears to be the first of a DAVE failing the same way.



Triode User said:


> Regarding the P10, using the P10 remote will only turn power off to each of the P10 sockets by using internal relays in the P10. The P10 itself is still powered up and can be damaged by a power spike on the incoming mains. You can tell the P10 is still powered up because there is still a slight hum from the P10 internal transformer. The only way to fully power down the P10 is to use the switch at the back and even that might not prevent damage due to lightning and you would need to pull the P10 mains plug from the wall to be fully safe.


The idea that a power conditioner is vulnerable to surges on the mains and other ills caused by storms is a very strong recommendation never to use such junk. If that's really true for the P10, then well...



audionewbi said:


> I was watching the nvidia CES presentation and saw their VOLTA and I was wondering has chord predicted when do they think they can get the required technology to reach their ideal 1 million TAP limit?


Rob is already doing 1 million taps at about 10W consumption. A GPU will never do that. It consumes 10W just being switched on.



rayl said:


> For pure DSP work, a current gen nVidia will eclipse what you can do on a Xilinx.


No, not even close. But NVidia's marketing is amazing at making ordinary people believe this nonsense.

Now playing: Fionn Regan - Cormorant Bird


----------



## audionewbi (Jan 10, 2018)

Nvidia new dsp chips can run at 30 watts compared to the last year Model 300 watt


----------



## Triode User

Jawed said:


> The idea that a power conditioner is vulnerable to surges on the mains and other ills caused by storms is a very strong recommendation never to use such junk. If that's really true for the P10, then well...



ALL electrical equipment is vulnerable to damage caused by lightning strikes and it is foolish to pretend otherwise. The P10 is no more vulnerable than anything else. Chord Dave, Blu2 and even the Hugo2 when connected to the charger are all equally vulnerable to lightning strike. I presume you would therefore also classify them as 'junk'. I would always unplug all electronic equipment if there was the risk of lightning strike.


----------



## Jawed

PS Audio doesn't claim surge protection. Isotek does. I suppose that's the difference between the two.


----------



## Triode User

Jawed said:


> PS Audio doesn't claim surge protection. Isotek does. I suppose that's the difference between the two.



There are many differences but that is a debate for elsewhere outside the Dave thread.


----------



## rayl

Jawed said:


> ... portions deleted ...
> 
> No, not even close. But NVidia's marketing is amazing at making ordinary people believe this nonsense.
> 
> Now playing: Fionn Regan - Cormorant Bird



Jawed, where do you think the bottleneck is?

You got me curious to find out exactly how expensive 1MM taps is. It certainly isn't the bottleneck.

I don't have a CUDA dev kit to run tests on, but testing with a standard CPU that's 5 yrs old (my PC is an i7-4770K @ 3.5GHz), I can get:

138 xRT on 1 million taps at 1Fs (48kHz) and 24 bit PCM resolution.
62 xRT at 2Fs
28 xRT at 4Fs

I used an off-the-shelf free package (http://convolver.sourceforge.net/)  that seems to crash at 6Fs.  Output below.

The sublinear performance is due to memory access overhead bec I'm simulating 2Fs with 4 tracks (whereas in reality, it's just 2 tracks with higher sampling rate so memory will not need to thrash). I did hte extra tests to insure that the trend is stable.

This is on a basic 4 core CPU.  To make numbers round, let's call it 128 xRT at 1Fs, which would require 64 cores to get 2048Fs at 1xRT.
I can imagine that a CUDA core is typically at half the clock speed, so say we double it to require 128 cores....

Or we can build in a lot of margin and say it requires.... 1024 cores...  I'm being very generous today.

A consumer grade gaming GeForce GTX 1080 has 2560 cores.  I still have 1500+ cores to spare for the oversampling processing, noise-shaper, etc.

I can imagine that loading data at 2048Fs might be the bottleneck, but you're never really loading at greater than 8Fs and you're oversampling on the board to get to 2048Fs.


Backup data below.  Both the 30sec wav and the FIR represented as a wav were randomly generated to be of the right length.

----
C:\Program Files (x86)\Convolver\Convolver>convolverCMD.exe 0 1 0 c:\temp\convolver\1fs.wav c:\temp\convolver\1fs30secs.wav c:\temp\convolver\out.wav
Using overlap-save convolution
Input file format: Stereo WAV (Microsoft) 48kHz 1440000 frames
Filter format: 2 Paths (Stereo to Stereo direct) 48kHz 2000000 taps Lag: 1000000 taps 21s Estimated gain: 35dB Peak gain: 94dB
Optimum attenuation: -45dB calculated in 3.77s
Using attenuation of 0dB (ie, scaling factor of 1)
Convolved and wrote 4000000 frames to c:\temp\convolver\out.wav in 0.665s (ie, at 1.3e+002 times real time)


C:\Program Files (x86)\Convolver\Convolver>convolverCMD.exe 0 1 0 c:\temp\convolver\2fs.wav c:\temp\convolver\2fs30secs.wav c:\temp\convolver\out.wav
Using overlap-save convolution
Input file format: 4-channel WAV (Microsoft) 48kHz 1440000 frames
Filter format: 4 Paths (4 channels to 4-channel direct) 48kHz 2000000 taps Lag: 1000000 taps 21s Estimated gain: 35dB Peak gain: 94dB
Optimum attenuation: -46dB calculated in 7.38s
Using attenuation of 0dB (ie, scaling factor of 1)
Convolved and wrote 4000000 frames to c:\temp\convolver\out.wav in 1.35s (ie, at 62 times real time)


C:\Program Files (x86)\Convolver\Convolver>convolverCMD.exe 0 1 0 c:\temp\convolver\4fs.wav c:\temp\convolver\4fs30secs.wav c:\temp\convolver\out.wav
Using overlap-save convolution
Input file format: 8-channel WAV (Microsoft) 48kHz 1440000 frames
Filter format: 8 Paths (8 channels to 8-channel direct) 48kHz 2000000 taps Lag: 1000000 taps 21s Estimated gain: 35dB Peak gain: 94dB
Optimum attenuation: -46dB calculated in 14.9s
Using attenuation of 0dB (ie, scaling factor of 1)
Convolved and wrote 4000000 frames to c:\temp\convolver\out.wav in 2.94s (ie, at 28 times real time)

C:\Program Files (x86)\Convolver\Convolver>convolverCMD.exe 0 1 0 c:\temp\convolver\8fs.wav c:\temp\convolver\8fs30secs.wav c:\temp\convolver\out.wav
Using overlap-save convolution
Input file format: 16-channel WAV (Microsoft) 48kHz 1440000 frames
Filter format: 16 Paths (16 channels to 16-channel direct) 48kHz 2000000 taps Lag: 1000000 taps 21s Estimated gain: 35dB Peak gain: 94dB
Standard exception: bad allocation


----------



## flyte3333

Rob Watts said:


> your assertion that a battery powered source does not solve RFI is just plain wrong. Battery powered sources, that have no ground connected, coupled via Dave's galvanically isolated USB, has effectively perfect isolation from the source ground to Dave's internal ground. It's isolation is actually more effective than optical via a mains powered source, as the ground coupling loop is via the source to general ground - and that capacitance is measured in fempto Farads or fF, and this coupling capacitance is insignificant compared to the low impedance path of a mains powered optical connection. Just because a source uses optical does not guarantee perfect isolation, as the mains provides a RF connection path into Dave - but a battery powered source via USB does provide effectively perfect isolation.



Hi Rob, regarding this old quote of yours - would you still recommend a USB cable with ferites, even if the USB source is battery based (like a mobile phone) running entirely off batteries?

Or is the USB cable with ferrites recommendation, more for mains power connected USB sources?

Cheers!


----------



## analogmusic (Jan 11, 2018)

erm - what's the best way to feed data to Dave?
I heard an auralic streamer with some posh Chord Ethernet cables, and the Ethernet cable made a difference which is quite annoying to me.
But my preferred way is the way Rob does I.e. laptop through USB into DAVE (running on battery)
However the laptop is connected through Wi-Fi to my home network and NAS.
am I missing a trick?

There are expensive streamers like DCS network bridge, Naim NDX, Aurender, Auralic,  Melco, Innuous, Microrendu, but not sure why I need any of this when a simple laptop through battery is good? or is it not?


----------



## Triode User

analogmusic said:


> erm - what's the best way to feed data to Dave?
> I heard an auralic streamer with some posh Chord Ethernet cables, and the Ethernet cable made a difference which is quite annoying to me.
> But my preferred way is the way Rob does I.e. laptop through USB into DAVE (running on battery)
> However the laptop is connected through Wi-Fi to my home network and NAS.
> ...



I'm not sure where you used the posh ethernet cables. Was that between the Auralic and the router?

I dont have a battery laptop so can only compare a mains powered iMac streaming Tidal (using WiFi). I have also used an Auralic Aries streamer (hard wired to my router). In both cases I used USB cable and also tried adding ferrites.

Then I had a home demo of an Innuos Zenith SE using it hard wired to the router with cheap (£5) ethernet cables. I wanted it to not sound any better. I wanted that very badly. It didn't happen and I have a Zenith SE on order.


----------



## Pappadave

Triode User said:


> I'm not sure where you used the posh ethernet cables. Was that between the Auralic and the router?
> 
> I dont have a battery laptop so can only compare a mains powered iMac streaming Tidal (using WiFi). I have also used an Auralic Aries streamer (hard wired to my router). In both cases I used USB cable and also tried adding ferrites.
> 
> Then I had a home demo of an Innuos Zenith SE using it hard wired to the router with cheap (£5) ethernet cables. I wanted it to not sound any better. I wanted that very badly. It didn't happen and I have a Zenith SE on order.


TU, but you feed Blu2 from Zenith via USB, right?


----------



## Crgreen (Jan 11, 2018)

I feed my Dave from a laptop (mains) via a PS Audio LANRover and Iso Regen, both powered by their own Ultracap LPS-1 battery power supplies. I found that feeding the USB signal to the Dave through a battery power supply made a significant difference.


----------



## Triode User

Pappadave said:


> TU, but you feed Blu2 from Zenith via USB, right?



I have two systems. I keep the Blu2 in the main system and bring the Dave through to the second system when I listen to that system. As the question concerned feeding the Dave I kept my answer based on my experiences in this Dave system without Blu2.

But yes, in the main system I feed Blu2 via USB and when the Zenith arrives I will feed it to Blu2 via USB.


----------



## Rob Watts

Em2016 said:


> Hi Rob, regarding this old quote of yours - would you still recommend a USB cable with ferites, even if the USB source is battery based (like a mobile phone) running entirely off batteries?
> 
> Or is the USB cable with ferrites recommendation, more for mains power connected USB sources?
> 
> Cheers!



My listening tests revealed no change with ferrites on USB cables at all. But differing sources may give different results. I know some posters have reported improvements. Also, battery mode operation should mean no ground loops, so no current flow into the ground planes, then no RF noise pick-up in the DAC and so no problem... This has been validated by listening tests.


----------



## flyte3333

Rob Watts said:


> My listening tests revealed no change with ferrites on USB cables at all. But differing sources may give different results. I know some posters have reported improvements. Also, battery mode operation should mean no ground loops, so no current flow into the ground planes, then no RF noise pick-up in the DAC and so no problem... This has been validated by listening tests.



Fantastic.

Can RF emitted by a mobile (battery powered) source be picked up by the USB audio cabe? Or is this also no problem for the DAC?

Or is it a good idea to use a ferrite core USB cable, in this example?


----------



## Rob Watts

I had listened to a USB cable that had ferrites installed - and no change. Again YMWV.... 

As to external RF, it only matters if there is a ground loop, so battery operation should mean no currents flowing into the DAC ground plane....


----------



## SuperDuke

Can Both the RCA and XLR outputs from DAVE be used at the same time w/o causing a problem?


----------



## flyte3333

Rob Watts said:


> I had listened to a USB cable that had ferrites installed - and no change. Again YMWV....
> 
> As to external RF, it only matters if there is a ground loop, so battery operation should mean no currents flowing into the DAC ground plane....



Brilliant, cheers Rob


----------



## Rob Watts

SuperDuke said:


> Can Both the RCA and XLR outputs from DAVE be used at the same time w/o causing a problem?


Sure


----------



## Triode User

Rob Watts said:


> I had listened to a USB cable that had ferrites installed - and no change. Again YMWV....
> 
> As to external RF, it only matters if there is a ground loop, so battery operation should mean no currents flowing into the DAC ground plane....



I on the other hand have noticed changes when trying ferrites on USB cables. This was on a USB cable between a streamer (with a mains power supply) and plugged into Dave USB input.


----------



## Rob Watts

Triode User said:


> I on the other hand have noticed changes when trying ferrites on USB cables. This was on a USB cable between a streamer (with a mains power supply) and plugged into Dave USB input.


Yes I was thinking of you when I posted that some had experienced benefits!
I guess it depends upon how noisy the source is - I get the very strong feeling that my MSI lap-top creates a lot less noise than my old Dell PC. And that would make sense, as it is newer, and much more power efficient, so less noisy to start off with.


----------



## flyte3333 (Jan 11, 2018)

Rob Watts said:


> As to external RF, it only matters if there is a ground loop, so battery operation should mean no currents flowing into the DAC ground plane....



Just on this Rob, for my learning purposes, so I understand the mechanisms behind what you’re saying.

If using a battery based USB, is airborne RF of zero concern , even if there’s no currents circulating through the ground plane?

Even if the mobile source is close to the DAC with it’s wifi, bluetooth and cellular radios active (assume all radios are going at full blast)?

Just talking technical mechanisms for sound quality being affected, not necessarily listening tests.

How does no ground currents relate to the DAC sensitivy to airborne RF?

Airborne RF specifically 

Cheers!


----------



## Rob Watts

It's difficult to imagine how airborne RF is going to induce currents in Dave's ground plane, considering how well screened Dave is in its thick solid aluminium chassis. 

We need current through the ground plane to set up voltages - and it is these voltages that the analogue electronics pick up. So no current, no voltage on the ground plane, no pick-up... The common mode noise, won't affect the analogue electronics at all.


----------



## xxx1313

I can also report that I hear a difference, using ferrites on the (silver) USB cable between SP1000 and Dave. However, I have an Iso Regen in between, powered by an Sbooster BOTW. This could be responsible for some RF pickup (even though I have ferrites on the power cable as well), but it still sounds better than straight from SP1000. The Wurth ferrites mentioned by Rob and others are better than the cheap Topnisus ferrites, imho. Less brightness, deeper soundstage. Dave is already great without ferrites etc., but one wants to hear the Dave at its best.


----------



## jonstatt

I am using a Bluesound Node 2 with optical to the Dave. The Node is connected via WiFi.  I like the Node because it is compatible with Roon. I don’t have files greater than 192kHz. But what magical optimisations am I missing out on by not spending more on a streamer or posh Ethernet cable?


----------



## penguin69

Rob Watts said:


> My listening tests revealed no change with ferrites on USB cables at all. But differing sources may give different results. I know some posters have reported improvements. Also, battery mode operation should mean no ground loops, so no current flow into the ground planes, then no RF noise pick-up in the DAC and so no problem... This has been validated by listening tests.



Rob,

You mentioned way back in the early pages of this thread that you considered the USB input preferable (slightly) to the Toslink input.

This was obviously based on listening tests; however, were you able to establish the technical reason(s) for this? Toslink receivers have traditionally been criticised for jitter, but I am pretty certain that your design eliminates that jitter.

Regards
penguin140369


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes I vaguely recalled that - it does indeed sound slightly brighter and I put that down then to the benefit of USB in that it gets the clock from the FPGA. But I have changed my mind on this now, as Hugo 2 USB sounds the same as optical when using headphones (it's like Dave when driving a power amp). So actually that indicates that the timing issue is not actually a benefit, as the DPLL eliminates the source jitter. So on Dave, because of ground loops, and the fact that the galvanic isolation lets a small amount of RF into the ground plane via the isolators 2pF of capacitance, now my explanation is down to increase in noise floor modulation from the RF, making it sound a tiny bit brighter.


----------



## penguin69

Rob Watts said:


> Yes I vaguely recalled that - it does indeed sound slightly brighter and I put that down then to the benefit of USB in that it gets the clock from the FPGA. But I have changed my mind on this now, as Hugo 2 USB sounds the same as optical when using headphones (it's like Dave when driving a power amp). So actually that indicates that the timing issue is not actually a benefit, as the DPLL eliminates the source jitter. So on Dave, because of ground loops, and the fact that the galvanic isolation lets a small amount of RF into the ground plane via the isolators 2pF of capacitance, now my explanation is down to increase in noise floor modulation from the RF, making it sound a tiny bit brighter.



Thanks Rob for the reply.

If source jitter is eliminated by the phase locked loop, then - all things being equal - shouldn't the optical connection be as good as if not better than the USB connection for 16/44.1? Or is that simplistic?

I note that the ES9038 Pro has a pin to change the DPLL settings (I think there are 15 or 16 available settings), which hints that there could be some compromising of quality in order to reduce chances of dropout. I'm guessing a little bit here as this capability of the Sabre chip isn't well described.

Thanks again.


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes optical is the best input - its really a question of getting the other inputs to match optical.


----------



## flyte3333 (Jan 12, 2018)

Rob Watts said:


> It's difficult to imagine how airborne RF is going to induce currents in Dave's ground plane, considering how well screened Dave is in its thick solid aluminium chassis.
> 
> We need current through the ground plane to set up voltages - and it is these voltages that the analogue electronics pick up. So no current, no voltage on the ground plane, no pick-up... The common mode noise, won't affect the analogue electronics at all.



Thanks Rob!

Based on this, then if Dave were directly powering PASSIVE speakers, i.e. only Dave's power supply involved therefore there's no ground or power supply 'loop' , then could Dave's housing THEORETICALLY be made of plastic and still suffer zero effects from airborne RFI, even if a mobile USB source was used with all it's wireless radios active on full blast??

And the same for someone using Dave purely with headphones with a mobile USB source?

Before anyone falls off their chair reading this, I'm not suggesting Dave should be made of plastic . I'm just trying to use this example to close the loop (pun intended) on my understanding of when airborne RFI is of concern, and when it's not.

Cheers in advance.


----------



## GraveNoX

I tested optical vs USB on 3 different days on Hugo 2, optical sound better, smoother, less grainier, cleaner and clearer than USB. Easily noticeable. My USB's power are way cleaner than before, but still not enough to catch the optical. Measurements may show same results, but listening is all that matters in audio world.


----------



## yaccobo

I am ready to purchase a DAVE, the only thing holding me back is the fact that the DAVE was lauched already 2.5 years ago, and that in the meantime there were other developments improving on the sound quality (like the M Scaler in the Blu2 CD-transport). I do not want to invest in Blu2 as i don't own any CDs anymore.

I know that this is a contentious question and that the company cannot divulge their 2018 launch plans, but can the users here who follow the discussions about Chord technologies more closely than I offer any thoughts whether purchasing a DAVE at this point would be a risk.

I am just afraid that perhaps a successor to DAVE, with better sound quality, will be announced later in 2018. Are there any hints that perhaps a dedicated M Scaler may be released that could be used in conjuction with DAVE to increase the sound quality?

I know that there is always an intrinsic risk in purchasing gadgets in a rapidly developing technology area since nobody has a crystal ball, but the investment in DAVE is quite substantial, therefore my reservation in investing into a 2.5 years old technology.


----------



## Triode User

yaccobo said:


> I am ready to purchase a DAVE, the only thing holding me back is the fact that the DAVE was lauched already 2.5 years ago, and that in the meantime there were other developments improving on the sound quality (like the M Scaler in the Blu2 CD-transport). I do not want to invest in Blu2 as i don't own any CDs anymore.
> 
> I know that this is a contentious question and that the company cannot divulge their 2018 launch plans, but can the users here who follow the discussions about Chord technologies more closely than I offer any thoughts whether purchasing a DAVE at this point would be a risk.
> 
> ...



Only Chord can answer and they will play their cards tight to their chests for obvious reasons.

My impression is that they have got other launches to occupy them for at the rest of 2018 and that whilst Dave is still at the top of it's game it is unlikely to be succeeded. All the signs are that any standalone MScaler is also way off. 

Every now and then a second hand Dave pops up so that would minimise any financial risk.


----------



## rayl

FWIW I had similar qualms about Blu2 vs maybe a forthcoming Mscaler stand-alone but took the plunge... just ahead of the NAmerican price increases.

Main thinking is that the combo is quite advance... I haven’t heard of any breakthroughs in the works... the only potential flaw is the RF from Blu2 entering via S/PDIF and reports here are that ferrite chokes work to an extent. So I felt that the better is the enemy of the good and placed my order. Life is always short.

The wait here was 5 wks DAVE (actual, as it arrived, the estimate was 4), 14 estimated for Blu2. I am guessing until the Blu2 backlog numbers come down, nothing new will be offered... and the intros at CES are now done so you have more info than I did. 

And if it goes past Brexit, is that a win (lower price) if there is a major GBP depreciation or a loss if no deal with whomever and WTO terms come into effect .... so many unknowns.


----------



## ZappaMan

I’m in a similar position.


----------



## Rob Watts

Em2016 said:


> Thanks Rob!
> 
> Based on this, then if Dave were directly powering PASSIVE speakers, i.e. only Dave's power supply involved therefore there's no ground or power supply 'loop' , then could Dave's housing THEORETICALLY be made of plastic and still suffer zero effects from airborne RFI, even if a mobile USB source was used with all it's wireless radios active on full blast??
> 
> ...



No then external RFI would create currents on Dave's ground plane - it is the solid block of aluminum that screens the PCB ground plane from external RF.


----------



## Rob Watts

yaccobo said:


> I am ready to purchase a DAVE, the only thing holding me back is the fact that the DAVE was lauched already 2.5 years ago, and that in the meantime there were other developments improving on the sound quality (like the M Scaler in the Blu2 CD-transport). I do not want to invest in Blu2 as i don't own any CDs anymore.
> 
> I know that this is a contentious question and that the company cannot divulge their 2018 launch plans, but can the users here who follow the discussions about Chord technologies more closely than I offer any thoughts whether purchasing a DAVE at this point would be a risk.
> 
> ...



I have many very interesting projects that I am currently working on - none of them include Dave 2. So assuming that the FPGA is not suddenly discontinued (extremely unlikely, Xilinx has kept production running for many years for old families - and the FPGA in Dave is still listed as current family), you are safe in that a replacement is not on my current horizon.


----------



## yaccobo

Rob Watts said:


> I have many very interesting projects that I am currently working on - none of them include Dave 2. So assuming that the FPGA is not suddenly discontinued (extremely unlikely, Xilinx has kept production running for many years for old families - and the FPGA in Dave is still listed as current family), you are safe in that a replacement is not on my current horizon.



thank you Rob, this reassurance is music to my ears, but my wallet is already in a panic mode as my last reservation to investing into a DAVE is now obsolete


----------



## Mojo ideas

Rob Watts said:


> I have many very interesting projects that I am currently working on - none of them include Dave 2. So assuming that the FPGA is not suddenly discontinued (extremely unlikely, Xilinx has kept production running for many years for old families - and the FPGA in Dave is still listed as current family), you are safe in that a replacement is not on my current horizon.


Also I can catagorically state Dave,  as is


Rob Watts said:


> I have many very interesting projects that I am currently working on - none of them include Dave 2. So assuming that the FPGA is not suddenly discontinued (extremely unlikely, Xilinx has kept production running for many years for old families - and the FPGA in Dave is still listed as current family), you are safe in that a replacement is not on my current horizon.


 Dave is and will remain technically the best Dac on


Triode User said:


> Only Chord can answer and they will play their cards tight to their chests for obvious reasons.
> 
> My impression is that they have got other launches to occupy them for at the rest of 2018 and that whilst Dave is still at the top of it's game it is unlikely to be succeeded. All the signs are that any standalone MScaler is also way off.
> 
> Every now and then a second hand Dave pops up so that would minimise any financial risk.


Dave will remain technically the finest Dac on the planet for many more years to come and as long as we can keep up production we will.  Though Rob is sometimes musing on an Ultra Ultra high end  Dac with a stupid amount of digital stuff inside and of three things I’m sure,  it’s likely to be done one day. Boy is going to be costly, it would have to be. Finally it would  take many years to develop and code. Besides all that Rob is very busy with other exciting stuff just now that far more people will get enjoy. So Dave will remain preeminent for a very long time.


----------



## onlychild

Rob Watts said:


> Yes optical is the best input - its really a question of getting the other inputs to match optical.



Not sure if I'm understanding this correctly, but is the consensus now that optical is the best input for DAVE vs USB?

I remember reading many posts from Rob stating USB was a better input for DAVE than optical.


----------



## Crgreen

With certain hi-res files, optical isn’t an option, and where you have to use some kind of USB to optical conversion, is there any real benefit? Other than with a CD transport, is optical really practicable or worthwhile?


----------



## Rob Watts

onlychild said:


> Not sure if I'm understanding this correctly, but is the consensus now that optical is the best input for DAVE vs USB?
> 
> I remember reading many posts from Rob stating USB was a better input for DAVE than optical.



Actually we are talking tiny differences - a battery powered lap-top via USB sonically is as good as optical, plus USB handles everything. When I do critical listening I pull out the power on my lap-top - but the difference is so small it's something I do not bother with when actually listening to music.

And yes I used to think that USB had the edge on optical - it's slightly brighter - but I was wrong about that, the brightness is not better timing as the clock comes from Dave, but worse RF noise pick-up. This gets eliminated when the lap-top is not connected to the mains or not grounded.

I will be visiting @romaz soon, so I can test out whether something else is going on with the work he has put into sources. It's always possible that other things are happening....


----------



## onlychild

Rob Watts said:


> Actually we are talking tiny differences - a battery powered lap-top via USB sonically is as good as optical, plus USB handles everything. When I do critical listening I pull out the power on my lap-top - but the difference is so small it's something I do not bother with when actually listening to music.
> 
> And yes I used to think that USB had the edge on optical - it's slightly brighter - but I was wrong about that, the brightness is not better timing as the clock comes from Dave, but worse RF noise pick-up. This gets eliminated when the lap-top is not connected to the mains or not grounded.
> 
> I will be visiting @romaz soon, so I can test out whether something else is going on with the work he has put into sources. It's always possible that other things are happening....




Thanks for the quick response Rob!! 

I've got an Innuos Zenith SE arriving next week and its USB only, but I'm not concerned with tiny differences if it means a cleaner and simpler setup like the Innuos direct to Dave provides.


----------



## Jawed

Very interesting results, it's good you have spent the time gathering data.


rayl said:


> Jawed, where do you think the bottleneck is?
> 
> You got me curious to find out exactly how expensive 1MM taps is. It certainly isn't the bottleneck.


The bottleneck is that it's not commercially realisable as a stand-alone DAC. The next step from Blu 2 is a million taps in a device of the size, portability and power consumption of Hugo or Mojo. Nothing else is worth doing. At least not for Chord. Some other competitor? Sure, they can try. If it sounds better than DAVE or Hugo 2, then yay.

The power consumption of a general purpose processor to run FFT based convolution is the plainest bottleneck. There's also the matter of latency. Latency can be reduced by running a partitioned convolution algorithm, but then power consumption goes up. This page is very interesting (I got there via your link to Convolver):

https://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/brutefir.html#whatis

on the subject of performance, latency and practicality. As you can see from that page, long FIR has been practical in real time for 15+ years on an ordinary consumer PC.

When running a million taps you need to use 64-bit (double precision) arithmetic. If you want to introduce GPUs as a solution, you have to bear in mind there's about 5 chips out there that aren't absurdly slow when running double-precision. Most of the GPUs are 1/16 or 1/32 rate on DP, entirely nullifying any theoretical benefits they might have over an ordinary CPU. Also, the fast double-precision GPUs are silly expensive, etc.

If your test processor was a phone - which could represent a device that replaces Hugo or Mojo with built in 1 million taps processing - then whatever numbers you produced would be more interesting! See if it could run for 5 hours, say, off battery...

As it happens, back in 2016 we had a discussion about FFT-based algorithms:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-273#post-12778587
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-275#post-12782076

That discussion obviously pre-dated Blu 2, which moved the goalposts rather dramatically.

When you have a specific algorithm to run, a general purpose processor (CPU or GPU) is going to be worse than an FPGA and utterly comical in the face of an ASIC. That's why so much AI research is focussing on FPGA and ASIC. It's why investment banks use FPGAs not GPUs for their high performance, low latency, workloads.

GPUs are great for proof of concept, because of their programmability and dense compute capability. Programmability could be attractive to Rob (it's likely easier to make C work than an FPGA when building a million taps) but that doesn't get you a device with a million taps in a portable replacment for Hugo.

It's worth noting that GPUs have hardly progressed in compute capability in the last 9 years. Factor of approximately 5x is not very impressive, compared to the previous 9 years:

https://techreport.com/review/17618/amd-radeon-hd-5870-graphics-processor/5
https://techreport.com/review/17618/amd-radeon-hd-5870-graphics-processor/5
And that chip has very high double-precision capability (1/4 rate) and to get 11x today requires Volta V100

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1136...v100-gpu-and-tesla-v100-accelerator-announced

which took 8 years with a chip that's 2.4x bigger. So in effect it took 8 years to get 4.5x higher capability in the same chip area (cost) though it is probably half the power.  Though this GPU (in a consumer card that's just been released) is about 4x the cost of the card from 2009, adjusted for inflation.

So if you have a DSP algorithm you want to deploy to 10s of thousands of customers, an FGPA (or a grid of them, they're usually small and low power) is going to be preferable to a GPU. If you have a one-off application installation or you're changing the application all the time, then sure, use a GPU. Or a supercomputer full of them.

---

You can find some of my GPU related coding here:

https://github.com/JawedAshraf

though it's for noise reduction in video, not audio processing.


----------



## Jawed

Rob Watts said:


> Yes optical is the best input - its really a question of getting the other inputs to match optical.


Glad we agree on this!

Now playing: Leif Ove Andsnes - Sibelius - 6 Bagatelles for Piano, Op. 97: Lied, No. 2


----------



## rayl

@Jawed I don't disagree with you that dollar for performance dollar, GPUs will lose out to FPGAs will lose out to ASICs...That's just the tradeoff between general purpose vs special purpose.... nor do I disagree that the current market does not support nVidia making GPUs viable for DACs (bec nVidia won't make them available in a package suitable for a DAC as the DAC market is too small for them to even care to pursue -- I think that was my initial comment).

But... if someone would to strip apart a DAC and just put the pulse array and other analog portions into a "bare bones" DAC, provide an USB driver with SDK to access it, and maybe an open source project reference implementation for the entire DSP portion -- with all that, I would maintain that there's more than enough power in a $800 nVidia card today to handle the DSP pieces to match the capabilities of BluDAVE. (* perhaps the footnote is, I have not verified the floating point precision needs, but CUDA does do 64 bit floating point.)

Admittedly, this is only of interest to folks using a PC as a source, another reason why an nVidia-based approach is not on the commercial horizon. This type of solution would appeal more to someone wanting to make exploring audio DSP an easy-to-access proposition in the hopes of fostering some general breakthrough (as opposed to for commercial gain).

Of course, this isn't something I foresee Chord doing, or any other existing audio vendor. Maybe if some enthusiast is willing to finance it personally (get Jeff Bezos interested in audio instead of building the world's baddest clock?).... 

I was only reacting to your strong pushback that it's just nVidia marketing hype -- Not that we shouldn't expect a near term commercial utilization, a position with which I agree.

I didn't know whether it was really just hype or not, hence I wanted to run some basic benchmarks and seek clarification.


----------



## jscmd2000

Tried optical input to the Dave for the first time last night and was surprised and impressed.
Thanks for that info!!


----------



## Jawed

jonstatt said:


> I am using a Bluesound Node 2 with optical to the Dave. The Node is connected via WiFi.  I like the Node because it is compatible with Roon. I don’t have files greater than 192kHz. But what magical optimisations am I missing out on by not spending more on a streamer or posh Ethernet cable?


None. 

Next step is Blu 2.



yaccobo said:


> I am ready to purchase a DAVE, the only thing holding me back is the fact that the DAVE was lauched already 2.5 years ago, and that in the meantime there were other developments improving on the sound quality (like the M Scaler in the Blu2 CD-transport). I do not want to invest in Blu2 as i don't own any CDs anymore.
> [...]
> but the investment in DAVE is quite substantial, therefore my reservation in investing into a 2.5 years old technology.


Blu 2 + Hugo 2 costs slightly more than DAVE. It will be more musical, but perhaps not as transparent and 3-dimensional? The fact that it has a CD spinner, which you can leave turned off, is pretty much irrelevant.

It's quite clear that Chord has many higher priorities than replacing DAVE. For all we know, Blu 2 isn't good enough to extract the maximum performance from DAVE.

Now playing: The National - Guilty Party


----------



## flyte3333

Rob Watts said:


> No then external RFI would create currents on Dave's ground plane - it is the solid block of aluminum that screens the PCB ground plane from external RF.



Noted, got it now. So the housing is still critcal for screening airborne RF, even if only using headphones and if the USB source is battery based. 

So when will we see an optical interface , standardised and commonly used, that supports up to PCM768kHz ?

Anything < 3 years coming that you can see or is that a crystal ball question?


----------



## Jawed

rayl said:


> I don't disagree with you that dollar for performance dollar, GPUs will lose out to FPGAs will lose out to ASICs...


It's worse than that. Watt for watt a GPU is no good either. The power consumption just to turn it on is at least an order of magnitude too much.



> I was only reacting to your strong pushback that it's just nVidia marketing hype


You asserted that for DSP (which is normally single algorithm), NVidia is an easy win. It's not even close as I think you now realise. Double precision, especially, is a no-go.

Sure if you're a hobbyist you can build your own upsampler with 1 million taps. I suggest if you want to try this that you use the BruteFIR source code as it appears this is actually the best-optimised FIR code anywhere. Don't bother buying a GPU: double precision is too slow compared to what you'll get on an ordinary CPU.

You still won't have Rob's windowing algorithm for your million coefficients... But it's a good learning exercise.



Em2016 said:


> So when will we see an optical interface , standardised and commonly used, that supports up to PCM768kHz ?


Never, sadly.

AT&T ST connector, 50MHz optical connections were commonly used in high-end hi-fi back in the 1990s to connect transports and DACs (like my Audio Synthesis Transcend/DAX-2 - rotting in the attic). Now extinct, sadly. It's a real pity. How many devices (PCs, Macs) even have an optical output these days? The trend is towards a single connection type that does everything.

Now playing: The War on Drugs - Strangest Thing


----------



## flyte3333 (Jan 12, 2018)

Jawed said:


> Never, sadly.
> 
> AT&T ST connector, 50MHz optical connections were commonly used in high-end hi-fi back in the 1990s



Hehe noted, but I said an optical interface , not the old standard TOSLink interface...

An interesting post from John Swenson a while ago:

_*“OR come up with a whole new "standard" using existing optical interfaces and cabling that specifically supports source syncing to the receiver. The interesting part about this is that everything exists today to do this, very well and inexpensively. But if anybody tried to implement this what would happen is there would be huge requests to add this, add that, support this, that and the other thing, that soon it would be so complicated that we would be back to complex electronics generating noise in the DACs. If "we" the audiophile world are willing to put together a simple optical interface that just has the music without all the other stuff, it's easy to do and would work VERY well.”*_

The full post is here:
*https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/26139-why-not-toslink/?do=findComment&comment=486215*

Would love to know if Rob sees any “standard” and common optical interface coming < 3 years from now that supports up to PCM768kHz or if it’s still a crystal ball question at this stage.


----------



## rayl

Jawed said:


> You asserted that for DSP (which is normally single algorithm), NVidia is an easy win. It's not even close as I think you now realise. Double precision, especially, is a no-go.



I admit that's fine print I did not read earlier.  I didn't realize that that's how nVidia differentiates the consumer grade boards (< $1200) from the professional boards.  I've only ever tinkered with a rather fancy professional board (that costs ~$4000 at the time) back in the days when I was working with speech recognition. On those, double precision was 1/2 single precision performance (limited primarily by memory bandwidth).  I didn't realize that on consumer board, it is more like 1/8th (or even less)... something I just looked up now.

Yah, I guess I grew up as a software guy so would love a platform that permits experimentation for each of my hobbies, of which audio is a big one. But it's kinda purely theoretical if there isn't a good option for the final analog output piece...


----------



## miketlse

Em2016 said:


> Would love to know if Rob sees any “standard” and common optical interface coming < 3 years from now that supports up to PCM768kHz or if it’s still a crystal ball question at this stage.



The creation of any 'standard' requires a cross-industry consensus  (component manufacturers, software developers, consumer equipment manufacturers, etc) that there is driver for that standard.
Given that optical outputs are rapidly disappearing from phones and computers, suggests that the consensus is that there is no need for consumer optical connections any longer, because USB interfaces can be used instead.
There will be little or no commercial incentive to develop a new standard - audiophiles interested in high speed optical, probably account for 0.0001% of the consumer electronics market, so will be ignored.


----------



## rayl

miketlse said:


> The creation of any 'standard' requires a cross-industry consensus  (component manufacturers, software developers, consumer equipment manufacturers, etc) that there is driver for that standard.
> Given that optical outputs are rapidly disappearing from phones and computers, suggests that the consensus is that there is no need for consumer optical connections any longer, because USB interfaces can be used instead.
> There will be little or no commercial incentive to develop a new standard - audiophiles interested in high speed optical, probably account for 0.0001% of the consumer electronics market, so will be ignored.



Unless one goes network based. You can run fiber instead of twisted pair to get the isolation.


----------



## miketlse

rayl said:


> Unless one goes network based. You can run fiber instead of twisted pair to get the isolation.


???
You are now mentioning the 'physical components' of a solution - this is completely different to a 'standard' agreed by multiple actors in one or more industries.


----------



## flyte3333

miketlse said:


> Given that optical outputs are rapidly disappearing from phones and computers, suggests that the consensus is that there is no need for consumer optical connections any longer, because USB interfaces can be used instead.



In this sense, even USB will very soon be a legacy interface, if not already for new devices.

Networked interfaces seem to be the future - wireless for the mass market and maybe ethernet for audiophile gear (and hopefully maybe networked fiber?)


----------



## rayl

miketlse said:


> ???
> You are now mentioning the 'physical components' of a solution - this is completely different to a 'standard' agreed by multiple actors in one or more industries.



Other DACs already support network streaming... roon... etc.


----------



## miketlse

You are both completely missing the point that I was making - however it is nearly midnight here, and I can't be bothered to have a long winded debate, so goodnight to you both.


----------



## Jawed

Em2016 said:


> Hehe noted, but I said an optical interface , not the TOSLink interface...


I just described an optical interface that does what you want. It's old and no longer viable!



rayl said:


> Yah, I guess I grew up as a software guy so would love a platform that permits experimentation for each of my hobbies, of which audio is a big one. But it's kinda purely theoretical if there isn't a good option for the final analog output piece...


The project I linked will compile on Linux. That means it'll run on a Raspberry Pi. I think there's a decent chance you could get 1 million taps running in real time for 705600Hz upsampling.

You could then send the audio to Mojo, Hugo 2 or DAVE to get the pulse array goodness! But depending on your window function for the coefficients, you might only have the equivalent of 100,000 WTA taps.

It would certainly be a fun hobbyist project.

Now playing: Arca - Piel


----------



## jlbrach

the ps audio dac with bridge 2 does a wonderful job with roon and ethernet connection to your router etc....very well done and convenient and works very well....


----------



## rgs9200m (Jan 12, 2018)

Since I still have my physical CDs, would I get better sound quality playing them through a Blu Mk 2 and DAVE rather than just my ripped digital files directly through my DAVE?

In other words, is it worth saving up for a Blu Mk 2 just on the basis of sound quality alone?
Thank you.
[I'm asking the others here on this thread, and I'd be very grateful for any comment from Rob or Chord also. Thank you.]


----------



## etnt

your ripped digital files through bludave would be (significantly) better than just through dave alone.


----------



## Triode User

rgs9200m said:


> Since I still have my physical CDs, would I get better sound quality playing them through a Blu Mk 2 and DAVE rather than just my ripped digital files directly through my DAVE?
> 
> In other words, is it worth saving up for a Blu Mk 2 just on the basis of sound quality alone?
> Thank you.
> [I'm asking the others here on this thread, and I'd be very grateful for any comment from Rob or Chord also. Thank you.]



Oh my goodness yes. That’s the whole point of Blu2. 

I’m not sure about your question about Blu2 on sound quality alone. That, ie Sound quality, is the whole point of Blu2.


----------



## penguin69

Em2016 said:


> In this sense, even USB will very soon be a legacy interface, if not already for new devices.
> 
> Networked interfaces seem to be the future - wireless for the mass market and maybe ethernet for audiophile gear (and hopefully maybe networked fiber?)



Perhaps a bit left-field, but I wonder if the distant future for high-end DAC's like DAVE is to ship with a built in media player. You could engineer in a GigE optical input connection (SFP/XFP) for L2 Ethernet, affording complete galavanic isolation to the DAC from the network. The data transmission restrictions associated with Toslink would become incidental because you would buffer the incoming file data and have no synchronous reliance on the source player.

The blocker for this at the moment, and perhaps for the next few years, is the fact that all home routers (as far as I can tell) exclusively use RJ45 connections for Ethernet data transmission around the network. Optical cabling remains largely the preserve of business-level switches.

Just a thought. </ducks>


----------



## flyte3333 (Jan 13, 2018)

penguin140369 said:


> Perhaps a bit left-field, but I wonder if the distant future for high-end DAC's like DAVE is to ship with a built in media player. You could engineer in a GigE optical input connection (SFP/XFP) for L2 Ethernet, affording complete galavanic isolation to the DAC from the network. The data transmission restrictions associated with Toslink would become incidental because you would buffer the incoming file data and have no synchronous reliance on the source player.
> 
> The blocker for this at the moment, and perhaps for the next few years, is the fact that all home routers (as far as I can tell) exclusively use RJ45 connections for Ethernet data transmission around the network. Optical cabling remains largely the preserve of business-level switches.
> 
> Just a thought. </ducks>



Now we're talkin ! This is what I was asking Rob about...

The current Playback Designs DACs (e.g. Merlot DAC) come with a fiber input. At the moment, only compatible with their music server and a USB-to-fiber converter they've made. It's capable of DSD256 rates...

Since we're on a Chord Dave thread, we don't need to worry about what is mainstream TOO much and I'm happy to consider a 'custom' solution like Playback Designs have done.

I was wondering if @Rob Watts  has something like this in his plans or just his overall thoughts on the future of optical supporting PCM768kHz sample rates in his DACs


----------



## rayl

Triode User said:


> Oh my goodness yes. That’s the whole point of Blu2.
> 
> I’m not sure about your question about Blu2 on sound quality alone. That, ie Sound quality, is the whole point of Blu2.



The marketing doesn’t make it clear that the mscaler in blu2 can be used with usb and spdif. I don’t think my dealer realized this at first either until  I made my objective clear. And he moves a lot of DAVEs.


----------



## ZappaMan (Jan 13, 2018)

rgs9200m said:


> Since I still have my physical CDs, would I get better sound quality playing them through a Blu Mk 2 and DAVE rather than just my ripped digital files directly through my DAVE?
> 
> In other words, is it worth saving up for a Blu Mk 2 just on the basis of sound quality alone?
> Thank you.
> [I'm asking the others here on this thread, and I'd be very grateful for any comment from Rob or Chord also. Thank you.]



I listened to the blu-Dave, using my iPhone as an input with tidal and Onkyo hf player, and it sounded a lot like the mojo to me.  However playing a cd that I knew well, I got the goosebumps and could hear the audio uplift clearly.

I’m willing to accept my ears and the situation around me we’re also factors, but that was my impression, the cds sounded much better.

I was listening with Hd650 headphones and wasn’t sure whether I needed something ‘better’ or not.


----------



## GryphonGuy

rayl said:


> The marketing doesn’t make it clear that the mscaler in blu2 can be used with usb and spdif. I don’t think my dealer realized this at first either until  I made my objective clear. And he moves a lot of DAVEs.



Sounds like your dealer is not interested in the products he sells. Just a box-pusher from your description. Look for a dealer interested in Hi-Fi!

Regards
GG


----------



## rayl

GryphonGuy said:


> Sounds like your dealer is not interested in the products he sells. Just a box-pusher from your description. Look for a dealer interested in Hi-Fi!
> 
> Regards
> GG



Nak. He has done right by me, so I have no complaints!  I find him quite pleasant actually. I chalk it up to covering quite an assortment of product lines, but that what makes one stop shopping easier.

The reality is, I know there's a reference that it has a USB port and can be used as an upsampler for other digital sources, but there is no marketing material that says BluDAVE is the reference DAC offering. I am not quite sure why this isn't touted more explicitly.


----------



## rgs9200m (Jan 13, 2018)

OK then, it looks like Blu2 + Dave may be the next step up for DAVE owners with the space and budget.
I'm still wondering somewhat if the actual physical CD playback is any better in this (ultimate?) setup...
I guess we'll wait and see until these components get into the hands of more users.

(LOL, that would sure be a throwback if real compact discs were an advantage.)


----------



## Triode User

rgs9200m said:


> OK then, it looks like Blu2 + Dave may be the next step up for DAVE owners with the space and budget.
> I'm still wondering somewhat if the actual physical CD playback is any better in this (ultimate?) setup...
> I guess we'll wait and see until these components get into the hands of more users.
> 
> (LOL, that would sure be a throwback if real compact discs were an advantage.)



There has been some discussion about CD playback in the Blu2 being the reference standard to judge the streamed options. In other words, yes the cd on Blu2 will probably beat streamed inputs but with diligence it is possible to get the streamed input to Blu2 to more or less equal the cd quality. For me the the only easy way to achieve this was with a Zenith SE but there are other cheaper options if you persevere. It is really good though to have the CD player in the Blu2 because this makes it easier to judge what is being achieved with the streamed route.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Jan 14, 2018)

Triode User said:


> There has been some discussion about CD playback in the Blu2 being the reference standard to judge the streamed options. In other words, yes the cd on Blu2 will probably beat streamed inputs but with diligence it is possible to get the streamed input to Blu2 to more or less equal the cd quality. For me the the only easy way to achieve this was with a Zenith SE but there are other cheaper options if you persevere. It is really good though to have the CD player in the Blu2 because this makes it easier to judge what is being achieved with the streamed route.


I have found Blu2/Dave has very good Jitter/Phase noise immunity so pretty much any quality source can  sound the same as the built in drive. My MSB CDIV, Aurender N10 and the Blu2 drive all sound alike. I'm waiting on a shielded dc cable for the Project CD box RS before I draw any conclusions on that and I have a terrible sounding TEAC drive that I will also try. It did take an excellent coax cable (Clearer Audio)  to get the other sources to equal the internal drive. Any way you cut it the combination is really enjoyable and the sound is lifelike and sweet no regrets!


----------



## statfi

Triode User said:


> There has been some discussion about CD playback in the Blu2 being the reference standard to judge the streamed options. In other words, yes the cd on Blu2 will probably beat streamed inputs


Could some Blu2/DAVE owners comment on the pro's and con's of the sound quality from playing physical Redbook CDs vs. hi-res (e.g., 24 bit 192kHz) digital files?  It seems to me like Triode User is saying Red Book is best but you can get hi-res to be almost as good.  What am I missing?


----------



## Crgreen

statfi said:


> Could some Blu2/DAVE owners comment on the pro's and con's of the sound quality from playing physical Redbook CDs vs. hi-res (e.g., 24 bit 192kHz) digital files?  It seems to me like Triode User is saying Red Book is best but you can get hi-res to be almost as good.  What am I missing?



I don’t think the issue is with the BluDave but with the quality of the USB feed. CD provides the benchmark for red book, which can be equalled, possibly exceeded, by USB, depending on the upstream configuration. On that issue, you have about a million possibilities.


----------



## Triode User

statfi said:


> Could some Blu2/DAVE owners comment on the pro's and con's of the sound quality from playing physical Redbook CDs vs. hi-res (e.g., 24 bit 192kHz) digital files?  It seems to me like Triode User is saying Red Book is best but you can get hi-res to be almost as good.  What am I missing?



To be clear I meant on a like for like basis. ie comparing a cd played on Blu2 with the same redbook file streamed to Blu2. 

It is not always easy to be sure that CDs and high res versions of the same recording have come from the same master. This makes it difficult to compare redbook and hi res files on a like for like basis.


----------



## Jawed

DAVE is sensitive to RF noise, wherever it comes from. 

Blu 2 generates some RF noise itself and streaming sources that you connect to Blu 2 will also generate some RF noise, which Blu 2 passes on to DAVE. The RF "adds up" when it gets to DAVE, so both the noise from the streaming source and Blu 2's own noise affect DAVE.

You can use strong filtering on the cables that connect Blu 2 to DAVE to prevent any audible problem in DAVE caused by the RF noise. If the filtering is strong enough, then you won't hear a difference between CD replay (RF noise solely from Blu 2) and streaming source (both RF noise sources "adding up").

Opinions vary on the best way to filter the connection between Blu 2 and DAVE. Inevitably it requires lots (tens) of ferrites on each cable. There's no point in using just one or two ferrites.

A useful technique to minimise the noise that Blu 2, alone, can inject into DAVE (i.e. without a streaming source connected to Blu 2) is to use a single electrical plug for the mains cables that go into Blu 2 and DAVE. This minimises the voltage differential that can exist between Blu 2 and DAVE. A voltage differential is what helps the RF noise travel into DAVE.

In general when building a hi-fi, all the components should have their power cables going into a single plug. And all the cables should be the same length and manufacture, so that their electrical measurements are effectively identical. But it's quite difficult to fit more than 2 cables into a single plug!

Additionally, since DAVE will detect RF noise on all of its inputs simultaneously, there should only be a single device connected to DAVE. If you have a USB or an AES connected device plugged into DAVE as well as Blu 2, then you will suffer RF noise from that other device while you are listening to Blu 2. Disconnect it from DAVE to find out if you can hear a problem. A device connected with optical cable can't cause an RF problem so it's safe to leave it connected.

Now playing: Wolf Alice - Giant Peach


----------



## Triode User (Jan 14, 2018)

Jawed said:


> DAVE is sensitive to RF noise, wherever it comes from.
> 
> Blu 2 generates some RF noise itself and streaming sources that you connect to Blu 2 will also generate some RF noise, which Blu 2 passes on to DAVE. The RF "adds up" when it gets to DAVE, so both the noise from the streaming source and Blu 2's own noise affect DAVE.
> 
> ...



Your post states these things as fact. Can I play devils advocate for a little while?

I thought I had seen a post from Rob stating that unused inputs on the Dave are disconnected internally and that there was no need to disconnect cables in order to isolate Dave from other sources.

You state that ideally all devices should be connected with same length power cables and into the same socket outlet to minimise voltage drops between devices. I have never heard of this before and wonder where that nugget of wisdom comes from. And what tolerances are you talking about for cable lengths? Plus or minus say one inch? Less? More? What about the length of power cabling within the device? Should that be taken into account? I have my skeptics hat on here.

@Rob Watts  any pearls of wisdom on this?


----------



## JaZZ

As I see it, the ground of unused (but connected) inputs isn't disconnected, and since RF noise is transported via ground connections, it's recommended to unplug the corresponding cables.

I leave the rest to Jawed and Rob.


----------



## Jawed (Jan 14, 2018)

Triode User said:


> Your post states these things as fact.


They're things you can try.

Admittedly you'll need to buy a plug that you can wire yourself to find out if wiring two components into one plug sounds better. If you have lots of ferrites between Blu 2 and DAVE you might have effectively solved the problem (filtering common mode noise) so then try a different pair of components, e.g. DAVE and power amp.

When I had a big system I ran the CD player, pre-amp and six power amps from a single plug. This required soldering and so most people with lots of components are going to struggle to do the same. But in a small system it should be possible without soldering.

This is a modern approach:

http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/AUDIO-FRIENDLY-SILVER-Hydra-mains-power-cable-Naim-3m-/310106268737

Disconnecting other inputs from DAVE is pretty easy, if you have any...

Now playing: Black Honey - Dig


----------



## musickid (Jan 16, 2018)

if optical is best on dave how can this be if dave's clock is slave to the sources clock even though rf is not an issue here? if you connected optical from a mains powered computer to dave even though we have electrical isolation is there any chance for negative artefacts to enter dave as say if connected to a non mains powered optical source if such a thing exists? finally how is dave technically handling sensitive headphones like oppo pm1 which are easily driven by most sources. i have listened to dave/pm1 and with excellent results. how can chord dacs adapt effortlessly to the whole spectrum of headphone impedences 8-800?

listening to gregory porter take me to the alley via roon mojo/pm1. sounds like gregory is singing in my room!


----------



## jonstatt

Just a side note for those thinking of using optical and considering expensive glass cables.....one of the most expensive, the WireWorld Supernova 7 is not compatible with DAVE. Due to the recessed connections on DAVE, the cable doesn't lock in all the way and it will not hold a 24/192 connection.


----------



## Triode User

jonstatt said:


> Just a side note for those thinking of using optical and considering expensive glass cables.....one of the most expensive, the WireWorld Supernova 7 is not compatible with DAVE. Due to the recessed connections on DAVE, the cable doesn't lock in all the way and it will not hold a 24/192 connection.



This is not just with expensive optical cables. I have taken a knife to my optical cable plugs to get them to fit within the recess. Fine if they are cheap but it will spoil any resale value for expensive cables.


----------



## penguin69

musickid said:


> if optical is best on dave how can this be if dave's clock is slave to the sources clock even though rf is not an issue here? if you connected optical from a mains powered computer to dave even though we have electrical isolation is there any chance for negative artefacts to enter dave as say if connected to a non mains powered optical source if such a thing exists? finally how is dave technically handling sensitive headphones like oppo pm1 which are easily driven by most sources. i have listened to dave/pm1 and with excellent results. how can chord dacs adapt effortlessly to the whole spectrum of headphone impedences 8-800?
> 
> listening to gregory porter take me to the alley via roon mojo/pm1. sounds like gregory is singing in my room!



The Chord Dave will not be using the S/PDIF clock information. I'm not a world expert here, but most modern DAC designs (and chips) will buffer and re-clock source data, supported by a digital phased locked loop.

Regarding the optical connection, there should be no negative (electrical) artefacts entering by this means. All you really have is timed pulses of light entering the DAC. My recent experience with optical is that you get 'all or nothing' failures, namely drop-outs if things aren't quite right. I wouldn't expect anything else, since the job of the optical connection is simply to transfer all the bits and interpolated clock data. As I've mentioned before, Toslink receivers are supposed to be a source of jitter, but I believe this is corrected by internal reclocking architectures. I think the supplied source clock data could also be a source of jitter, but as stated this is remediated by re-clocking. 

Hope this helps. I'm sure someone more expert can chime in if I have made any mistakes.


----------



## jonstatt

lovethatsound said:


> the super nova 7 plug has a different diameter to the super nova 6.The super nova 7 fit's Dave perfect,and is also 1 of the best optical cables I've ever heard.



It certainly does not fit in my Dave. It does connect enough to work at lower sample rates but not 24/192. You mentioned you actually use yours with Blu 2 so I wonder if its TOSLINK input is slightly different (not as recessed). I know the cable is fine as it works perfectly from the same source to a Hugo2.


----------



## Triode User

jonstatt said:


> It certainly does not fit in my Dave. It does connect enough to work at lower sample rates but not 24/192. You mentioned you actually use yours with Blu 2 so I wonder if its TOSLINK input is slightly different (not as recessed). I know the cable is fine as it works perfectly from the same source to a Hugo2.



Blu2 doesn't have an optical input.


----------



## jonstatt

Triode User said:


> Blu2 doesn't have an optical input.



Oops of course it doesn't! I am trying to ignore the existence of Blu2 for now as I only got my order in a week and a half ago for a unit and I am expecting a long wait!


----------



## jscmd2000 (Jan 17, 2018)

Could this be true?  At first, I was impressed with the optical input to my Dave, so I ordered a better quality toslink cable and did some testing.

I hear absolutely no audible difference in a/b testing between the following  setup using my Mac powerbook (2014 model).  None!

1. USB(AudioQuest Carbon) -> UpTone Audio USB Regen -> USB(AudioQuest Carbon) ->Dave
2. AK380cu -> Toslink ($7 from amazon) -> Dave
3. AK380cu -> Wireworld Supernova 7 Toslink -> Dave

The $7 Toslink is this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00T8HWUVS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The Supernova 7 does work with my Dave but not for higher sample rate tracks, same as the cheaper Toslink cable.
Maybe there is a difference that I am just not hearing?  Maybe I am a cheap date for this stuff?? lol


----------



## penguin69

jscmd2000 said:


> Could this be true?  At first I was impressed with optical input to my Dave, so I ordered a better quality toslink cable and did some testing.
> 
> I hear absolutely no audible difference in a/b testing between the following  setup using my Mac powerbook (2014 model).  None!
> 
> ...



Likewise, I have various source systems and different quality optical cables - but I hear no difference between my optical set-ups, other than that one configuration drops out occasionally whilst the others do not. (Almost certainly a local wifi issue.)

This is what I would expect.

Of course, YMMV, etc.


----------



## lovethatsound

jonstatt said:


> It certainly does not fit in my Dave. It does connect enough to work at lower sample rates but not 24/192. You mentioned you actually use yours with Blu 2 so I wonder if its TOSLINK input is slightly different (not as recessed). I know the cable is fine as it works perfectly from the same source to a Hugo2.


I used the super nova 7 with the original blu to the Dave.The super nova 7 i have fit's my Dave perfectly.ive had no problems with the super nova 7 and the Dave at all.It could be that chord have changed the design of the Dave abit.If so,Chord should know better, and indeed should have learned from the original hugo,not to recess cable ports on there equipment,especially on a full size dac,theirs no excuse for it.Maybe you could get in touch with chord and they might correct there mistake.


----------



## rayl

lovethatsound said:


> I used the super nova 7 with the original blu to the Dave.The super nova 7 i have fit's my Dave perfectly.ive had no problems with the super nova 7 and the Dave at all.It could be that chord have changed the design of the Dave abit.If so,Chord should know better, and indeed should have learned from the original hugo,not to recess cable ports on there equipment,especially on a full size dac,theirs no excuse for it.Maybe you could get in touch with chord and they might correct there mistake.



I actually had this problem with some XLR connectors too.... the recess was preventing engagement of the locking tab...  but I just swapped connectors (and cables attached to them).


----------



## jscmd2000

lovethatsound said:


> I used the super nova 7 with the original blu to the Dave.The super nova 7 i have fit's my Dave perfectly.ive had no problems with the super nova 7 and the Dave at all.It could be that chord have changed the design of the Dave abit.If so,Chord should know better, and indeed should have learned from the original hugo,not to recess cable ports on there equipment,especially on a full size dac,theirs no excuse for it.Maybe you could get in touch with chord and they might correct there mistake.



Someone mentioned that optical cables are not compatible with higher sample rates, I thought.  Or is it because of faulty design?  (I noticed that Supernova 7 doesn't lock in to the Dave.)
What would be the sample rate, or equivalent, of the blue output?
Lastly, can you objectively confirm that the Supernova improves the sq over other cheaper optical cables?


----------



## lovethatsound

jscmd2000 said:


> Someone mentioned that optical cables are not compatible with higher sample rates, I thought.  Or is it because of faulty design?  (I noticed that Supernova 7 doesn't lock in to the Dave.)
> What would be the sample rate, or equivalent, of the blue output?
> Lastly, can you objectively confirm that the Supernova improves the sq over other cheaper optical cables?


As far i am aware it's 24/192
My super nova 7 does lock into my Dave
I can only confrim that my ears can hear a difference.
IF your super nova 7 does not lock into the Dave,it's because the optical input on your Dave is slightly recessed,this is chords fault,and you should take it up with chord.


----------



## jscmd2000

Thank you for that info. I will take a closer look at the optical input on my Dave tonight and try different cables.
In the meanwhile, if there are other Dave users able to play 24/192 files on anything other than blu via optical cable, I would appreciate confirmation.


----------



## miketlse

jscmd2000 said:


> Thank you for that info. I will take a closer look at the optical input on my Dave tonight and try different cables.
> In the meanwhile, if there are other Dave users able to play 24/192 files on anything other than blu via optical cable, I would appreciate confirmation.


You may find this post from the Mojo FAQ to be interesting.


----------



## jonstatt

jscmd2000 said:


> Thank you for that info. I will take a closer look at the optical input on my Dave tonight and try different cables.
> In the meanwhile, if there are other Dave users able to play 24/192 files on anything other than blu via optical cable, I would appreciate confirmation.



Surprisingly the bundled optical cable works with the Bluesound Node 2 at 24/192 to DAVE


----------



## Jawed (Jan 17, 2018)

jscmd2000 said:


> Could this be true?  At first, I was impressed with the optical input to my Dave, so I ordered a better quality toslink cable and did some testing.
> 
> I hear absolutely no audible difference in a/b testing between the following  setup using my Mac powerbook (2014 model).  None!
> 
> ...


The only thing we don't know with your two systems (laptop and AK380cu) is whether either system is connected to a pre-amp or power amp. This is relevant because, if so, there's potentially RF noise between DAVE and that following component which could be hampering your ability to hear the difference between these 3 setups. The RF noise isn't something you would hear directly, but it muddles the way hi-fi sounds, making it harder to hear the differences in a system when you change something. RF spoils transparency, basically.

Also you must disconnect the USB cable from DAVE when listening to optical, otherwise you've spoilt the purity that optical provides.

In the end, optical can be used as a reference for sound quality. If you can't distinguish 2 from 1 then 1 is good enough for you!! Presumably you've been listening to optical for a few weeks already. So if you switch back to 1 and don't find yourself missing anything you're good to go!

With 1 you won't have to think about whether the music you want to listen to is compatible with the limited bandwidth of optical, which won't support higher than 24-bit/192KHz. So 1 is really the best choice for you and no need to tweak it any more.

The optical cable that came in the box with my DAVE supports 24-bit/192KHz from my computer. I bought a cheap 2m optical cable and that doesn't work at higher than 96KHz. I use USB only now, having satisfied myself that I've fully optimised it.

Now playing: Brand New - Waste


----------



## xxx1313

jscmd2000 said:


> Could this be true?  At first, I was impressed with the optical input to my Dave, so I ordered a better quality toslink cable and did some testing.
> 
> I hear absolutely no audible difference in a/b testing between the following  setup using my Mac powerbook (2014 model).  None!
> 
> ...



This is interesting. In my setup I made a different experience regarding USB vs. Toslink. Out of the SP1000, Toslink was o.k., but I did not bother much with comparing Toslink cables (I have an good QED glass Toslink cable). With Uptone Iso Regen, the DAVE just sounded slightly better via USB  compared to Toslink. Adding an AQ Jitterbug and many Würth ferrites for my Solidcore silver USB cable and the connection between sBooster BOTW and Iso Regen made the USB input sound considerably better than Toslink. So thumbs up for the Würth ferrites! They are so much better than cheap ones (Topnisus for example). I have replaced all Topnisus ferrites with Wurth ferrites. The cheap ferrites just add warmth to the sound, without really improving the sound quality.


----------



## Jawed

If some ferrites are adding more warmth that's actually the desired result, so it's interesting how you dislike that. 

The warmth is because there's less brightness. The brightness is a side-effect of RF noise, which is heard as artificial brightness. We know it's RF noise, because the ferrites can only have an effect on RF noise. So the cheap ferrites appear to be doing a better job in your system ... but you don't like it!

Is optical the warmest?

Now playing: Low - The Little Drummer Boy


----------



## xxx1313 (Jan 17, 2018)

Jawed said:


> If some ferrites are adding more warmth that's actually the desired result, so it's interesting how you dislike that.
> 
> The warmth is because there's less brightness. The brightness is a side-effect of RF noise, which is heard as artificial brightness. We know it's RF noise, because the ferrites can only have an effect on RF noise. So the cheap ferrites appear to be doing a better job in your system ... but you don't like it!
> 
> ...



No, optical is not warmer than USB now (it is without any ferrites on USB, however). The Würth ferrites reduce brightness too, but do increase soundstage depth. The cheap ferrites also reduce brightness, but do not increase the soundstage depth much. It seems to me that the cheap ferrites reduce the highs too much. Highs really sound rolled-off and the sound of the setup becomes a bit mid-centric and too warm overall. I have 18 Würth ferrites on the USB cable and also 18 between sBooster BOTW and Iso Regen (this connection was responsible for some RF noise pickup, quite obviously). So this is the perfect setup for me now. Dave + Utopia is sooo good!


----------



## maxh22

Jawed said:


> Also you must disconnect the USB cable from DAVE when listening to optical, otherwise you've spoilt the purity that optical provides.
> 
> 
> 
> Now playing: Brand New - Waste



Interesting you mentioned this, a few days I was A/B Optical and USB into Hugo TT and when both were plugged in the sound was considerably harder and brighter, the usb cable was plugged into the USB H so I didn't think it was a problem.

Do you think having RCA's plugged into a powered down source also has a negative effect on SQ? My Hugo TT is setup so the RCA's send a signal to active monitors and headphone jacks are free.


----------



## maxh22

Also, are you still using the jitterbugs in your setup? I currently have two and both of them improve the sound even though I'm using optical.


----------



## Jawed

maxh22 said:


> Do you think having RCA's plugged into a powered down source also has a negative effect on SQ?.


"Powered down" might mean the source is in stand-by, and so still able to send RF noise into your TT. I think it's simpler to just compare with the powered-down source disconnected to find out if it's bothersome when powered down.



maxh22 said:


> Also, are you still using the jitterbugs in your setup? I currently have two and both of them improve the sound even though I'm using optical.


I am still using both of them, with one of them being the "socket" for my mega ferrite USB cable. Perhaps I should make my signature more explicit (and update the ferrite count to 66 which fill the USB cable end to end - don't think that made a difference which is why I haven't bothered talking about it).

The Jitterbugs change the sound quality of your purely optical connection in your system? Well, that's interesting! (Or worrying. Sigh.)

I also have 40 ferrites on my mains cable (IEC 3-pin that came with DAVE) and I'm still trying to decide if the ferrites make any difference. Each time I try comparing I get bored as nothing leaps out at me. I'm unlikely to try comparing again.

I do wish I'd learnt what I now know about RF, and filtering it, while I had my TT...

Now playing: Carlos Barretto - Variçoes Em La


----------



## maxh22 (Jan 17, 2018)

Jawed said:


> "Powered down" might mean the source is in stand-by, and so still able to send RF noise into your TT. I think it's simpler to just compare with the powered-down source disconnected to find out if it's bothersome when powered down.
> 
> 
> I am still using both of them, with one of them being the "socket" for my mega ferrite USB cable. Perhaps I should make my signature more explicit (and update the ferrite count to 66 which fill the USB cable end to end - don't think that made a difference which is why I haven't bothered talking about it).
> ...



When I said powered down I meant they are completely off using the power switch, but still plugged into the outlet and into the RCA's of TT. I'm not hearing any difference myself when they are powered off but I still wanted to know your input.

Regarding the jitterbugs, I was quite shocked when I heard what just one jitterbug did to the sound. I thought my ears were playing tricks on me so I took it out and was A/Bing the sound with and without it. The Jitterbug lowered the brightness and the sound was warmer and smoother each and every time. On top of that, the sound felt like it had more weight to it and depth was also slightly improved.

The second jitterbug made a much smaller difference and basically made the sound a tad smoother and more transparent but still worth the investment.


----------



## maxh22 (Jan 17, 2018)

Interesting.. I just checked the AQ site and found this:

*Q: Will JitterBug improve the sound of my computer audio even when I’m not using a USB DAC?*

*A:* Yes. For instance, if your computer is connected to your A/V system via Toslink or HDMI, and your music is stored on an external USB 2.0 or 3.0 hard drive, adding a JitterBug in between the external hard drive and computer will yield an overall improvement in sound.


----------



## jscmd2000

Thank you so much for all of your input!

I thought you don't have to worry about RF noise if your source is battery powered, like laptop or mojo/hugo, hence no need for ferrites?
My Supernova 7 does lock in to the Dave but I can only play upto 24/96 out of my ak380.  If I try to play 24/192, I get "no data" on the Dave and hear some clicking sound.  Are you able to play any 24/192 files out of your sp1000 via optical cable to the Dave?

The USB cable was plugged in along with the optical, so I disconnected it.  Will try some testing with only the optical cable and report back.


----------



## Triode User

maxh22 said:


> Interesting.. I just checked the AQ site and found this:
> 
> *Q: Will JitterBug improve the sound of my computer audio even when I’m not using a USB DAC?*
> 
> *A:* Yes. For instance, if your computer is connected to your A/V system via Toslink or HDMI, and your music is stored on an external USB 2.0 or 3.0 hard drive, adding a JitterBug in between the external hard drive and computer will yield an overall improvement in sound.



And of course it’s on a manufacturers web site so it must be true!?


----------



## maxh22

Triode User said:


> And of course it’s on a manufacturers web site so it must be true!?



My ears agree with their claim in this case. 

The first time I plugged it in I didn't expect to hear any difference, my thought process was "I hear a little bit of glare, eh I'll plug this little critter in since I already have it but I doubt it will have any effect at all"


----------



## penguin69

All fascinating stuff.

One thing I find with my Dave is that I seem to measure or associate sound 'quality' far more now with image _depth_ than I ever did before.

With other DACs previously, it has centred more on brightness/brittleness, the clarity of instruments, etc. I've changed out XO's and op amps and soldered in improved components to try and rectify these things. With the Dave, it looks like my soldering iron will be consigned to the loft! Also, I wouldn't even know where to start within the Dave as the architecture is very different to your standard single or twin DAC chip topology.

Anyway, hats off to Mr Watts and Chord for having the energy and the balls to build completely from the ground up, without reliance on ESS, Wolfson, etc.


----------



## Tom Blake (Jan 18, 2018)

I have been running my BluDAVE with Wyred4Sound mAMP monoblocks. They are perfect for a desktop near field application as they are so small and pack a punch at 250 WPC. They are Class D amps using the ICEpower module. However, I have always found them to sound flat and lifeless with my BluDAVE and KEF LS50's. AudioAdvisor is blowing out the NuForce STA200 amp for $499 (originally $1299). It is a smallish AB amp based on the Goldmund Job 225. Thought I'd give it a try as a cheap placeholder until Rob's digital amp comes out. I am shocked at how much better it sounds than the Class D amps, and its not even broken in yet. It provides significantly more air around the instruments, wider soundstage, and more precise imaging. I had read on this thread earlier that DAVE does not play well with Class D amps and my experience would bear that out. Does anyone know why? In any event I can highly recommend the STA200 as a cheap placeholder until Rob's digital amp comes out. It even looks nice with my silver DAVE!


----------



## ray-dude

Interesting!  Amazon has the same unit for $499 (prime eligible) if someone wants to try it out with easy returns


----------



## Tom Blake (Jan 18, 2018)

i can highly recommend this amp for a cheap solution with DAVE. It has pretty high gain (approximately 34.4 dB) but I hear no hiss at all from the LS50 with the DAVE on mute and my ear right next to tweeter. Can't get much higher than -25 dB on the DAVE volume scale without it being too loud for me. It looks like AA may be out of them but as ray-dude indicates Amazon has some at the same price. I would be happy with this amp even at its original price of $1299. It also runs extremely cool, although the rear heatsink gets a little warm. I am set until the Chord digital amp comes out! I can post some interior shots if anyone is interested. It is very well built and supposedly comes from the same Swiss factory that Goldmund uses, as does the Job 225. Looks good with silver Chord gear and is only available in silver at this time AFAIK. This amp gets my speaker rig sounding much closer to my headphone listening experience with the Utopia amplified by DAVE. Here is a good TAS review:

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/optoma-nuforce-sta200-power-amplifier/


----------



## rgs9200m

Can anyone report on a Blu Mk2 with/DAVE with a physical SACD disc? (Or a DSD file?) Thank you.


----------



## miketlse

rgs9200m said:


> Can anyone report on a Blu Mk2 with/DAVE with a physical SACD disc? (Or a DSD file?) Thank you.


The CD drive cannot play a SACD.


----------



## rayl

miketlse said:


> The CD drive cannot play a SACD.



And even if it could, it would be illegal to support spdif out in most countries -- at least standard spdif.  SACD is a copy protected format.  The DAC interface would need to implement something to convey the copy protection bit...  (I know that my former PS Audio stuff did just that betw its transport and DAC.)


----------



## Tom Blake

Blu2 plays the CD layer of SACDs (that have one) just fine. I have done it multiple times.


----------



## GryphonGuy

miketlse said:


> The CD drive cannot play a SACD.



If the SACD disc has a 16bit 44.1kHz PCM CD layer it can.

Regards
GG


----------



## ecwl

Tom Blake said:


> I had read on this thread earlier that DAVE does not play well with Class D amps and my experience would bear that out. Does anyone know why?



The simple answer is that DAVE/Blu2 first upsamples to 768kHz with its 1 million taps and then to 12.3MHz then to 104MHz. Class D amplifiers are usually switching at up to 400-500kHz. So you’re going to lose timing accuracy and transients will sound off. I also think the ICEpower module is not load invariant which can cause a slightly off frequency response from the KEFs. I think Rob Watts actually described the class D amplifier issue in more detail somewhere in Head-Fi. Maybe somebody can find it and provide a link. I seem to recall him saying there’s frequently a lot more noise floor modulation in most class D amplifiers that can make music sound too bright. And then the switching is like DSD which makes the soundstage flatter but I don’t really understand why since class D amps are not DSD DACs amplified. It might have something to do with low-level linearity which maybe crucial in capturing depth of soundstage.


----------



## ecwl

Tom Blake said:


> I had read on this thread earlier that DAVE does not play well with Class D amps and my experience would bear that out. Does anyone know why?



Found the links from Rob Watts:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-6#post-12471208
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-6#post-12473731


----------



## Tom Blake

ecwl said:


> Found the links from Rob Watts:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-6#post-12471208
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-6#post-12473731


Thanks so much!!


----------



## rgs9200m (Jan 18, 2018)

Interesting. I didn't know that. (Re: the Blu2 drive not handling SACDs.) I assumed it would since DAVE supports native DSD. I still don't exactly follow why, but I'll read up this about on the Blu2 thread if there is any info there. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## rayl

rgs9200m said:


> Interesting. I didn't know that. (Re: the Blu2 drive not handling SACDs.) I assumed it would since DAVE supports native DSD. I still don't exactly follow why, but I'll read up this about on the Blu2 thread if there is any info there. Thanks for the heads up.



DSD is an audio encoding format.  SACD is more than just DSD64.  It is a disc container format that actually has the DSD64 encrypted (much like a DVD).  Actually there is also a compression layer after the DSD64 and before the encryption.

If you license the key, you are required to never retransmit the DSD unprotected.  You can output as analog.... or, in rare cases (I can only think of one standalone transport actually), you can retransmit as digital with another protection scheme. There is no protected digital transport out of Blu2,

In many countries, bypassing this protection is prohibited by law, even aside from the contractual requirements with the key.  Sony Playstation was "cracked", so in theory you can rip an SACD off of it... though, this is not legal in most developed countries, so by "can," I mean "technically able to", not "legally able to."  That's why there are no SACD rippers unlike for redbook CDs.

Yes, the normal RedBook can be played off a hybrid SACD... the idea behind the marketing of SACD is to more a higher resolution version into the DSD64 layer and keep that protected.


----------



## rgs9200m (Jan 19, 2018)

Thanks for that. But why can't the Blu2 act like any other SACD-capable transport out there into the DAVE, like Accuphase, EMM and Playback Designs, which use proprietary optical cables (as in the PD MPT-8)? These of course are meant to only work with the companion DACs from each maker.

Couldn't there be a proprietary interface between the Blu2 and the DAVE? Is it because the DAVE wasn't designed to accept this?


----------



## Triode User

rayl said:


> DSD is an audio encoding format.  SACD is more than just DSD64.  It is a disc container format that actually has the DSD64 encrypted (much like a DVD).  Actually there is also a compression layer after the DSD64 and before the encryption.
> 
> If you license the key, you are required to never retransmit the DSD unprotected.  You can output as analog.... or, in rare cases (I can only think of one standalone transport actually), you can retransmit as digital with another protection scheme. There is no protected digital transport out of Blu2,
> 
> ...



Ah, very interesting. And although I obviously trusted what you were saying I went off to look at the spec of a disk transport that plays SACD for output to a DAC. Their product description says,
"_DMP opens the long restricted DSD layer of SACD to PS Audio DACs. Through a unique code-handshake, DMP will deliver the raw DSD layer of copyright protected SACD directly into your PS Audio DAC._"

So their 'unique handshake' means that the DSD is not retransmitted unprotected.

You learn something everyday.

As an aside, I came across a DVD A disk that had some high resolution music on it that sounded very good played through another player but which of course would not play on Blu2. I simply copied the Hi Res files over to my hard drive using a DVD input connected to the iMac and streamed them to the Blu2. The Blu2Dave made the music even more magical than through the player + DAC  that could handle DVD A disks direct. I can count the number of DVA A disks that I have come across on the fingers of one hand so this is no big deal with Blu2.


----------



## tunes

rayl said:


> FWIW Amazon stocks the AudioQuest Diamond usb with amazon fulfillment... so one can always try it and return if no go.
> 
> (I am not an AQ owner nor hater, so no agenda here...just info that may be helpful...)




Has anyone tried the grounding system called Entreq??


http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/entreq.htm


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> Has anyone tried the grounding system called Entreq??
> 
> 
> http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/entreq.htm



Haha, NO.

And as Rob Watts might say, do not get me started about that!


----------



## rayl

rgs9200m said:


> Thanks for that. But why can't the Blu2 act like any other SACD-capable transport out there into the DAVE, like Accuphase, EMM and Playback Designs, which use proprietary optical cables (as in the PD MPT-8)? These of course are meant to only work with the companion DACs from each maker.
> 
> Couldn't there be a proprietary interface between the Blu2 and the DAVE? Is it because the DAVE wasn't designed to accept this?




Ah I stand corrected on this. It seems like others now also use the model of a proprietary digital interface.. many yrs ago, in my quest, I found that only PS did it. I’ve lost interest in SACDs since then and haven’t been following the market.

But Blu2, DAVE does not today.


----------



## rgs9200m (Jan 19, 2018)

By the way, it is now possible to rip SACD discs to DSD files using recent generation Oppo 103/105 or Cambridge 752 or some Pioneer BluRay players. CA has a huge thread about this. The Sony playstation is no longer needed. These players are available with a little searching on the used market.

It's a bit intricate, but it seems fairly straightforward once you get the hang of it. At least that's what the thread says.

Thanks again Rayl for your insight.


----------



## ray-dude

But with a PS3 you can play Little Big Planet! (even if you have 250+ SACDs to rip, eventually you catch up)

Kidding aside, easy as can be to rip with the PS3 (if you have the right one at the right firmware level), as well as with the supported BluRay players.  Takes about 20 minutes per SACD to rip.  I'm hopeful Roon eventually will support SACD ISO's, but Audirvana handles them just fine


----------



## rgs9200m

Ray-dude, LOL!  Not to belabor this, is just seems odd that the DAVE can play DSD natively but not accept DSD-disc (SACD) input from any source, even the Blu2.

 I used to have the EMM DCC2 dac back in 2004 that could handle SACD discs from the modified Phillips SACD 1000 (an early SACD player) or the EMM CDSD transport. You had the choice of the EMM Optical Fiber cables or even Coax.


----------



## rgs9200m (Jan 19, 2018)

I guess I should modify my original question to ask how a Blu2 + DAVE combo sounds with DSD files.
Does the native DSD processing on the DAVE still function?
And does playback in this mode (if possible) sound better than direct playback of DSD files through DAVE in DSD mode?

[I'm only asking this because I have a DAVE along with an SACD collection, so it matters to me.]


----------



## ray-dude

Any time you're dealing with licensing, esp. for a format that realistically has run its course, there's motivation to not deal with it.  The DSD spec is open, but the SACD implementation is most definitely not.

On my infinite to do list is to come up with a Roon endpoint config that can output HDMI multi-channel audio to my AVR for the surround layer in my SACD ISOs (and BluRay ISOs and DVD-A ISOs).  Until then, I just play my multi channel SACDs on my PS3.

For the 2 channel stuff, DAVE (and especially BluDAVE) do wonderfully well with the ripped redbook layer from my SACDs, so I haven't been motivated to access the DSD64 2 channel SACD layer in my SACD ISOs.  Ripped redbook SACD layer vs DSD64 2 channel SACD layer hasn't been enough of a delta to matter (at least for me).


----------



## rgs9200m

Well, it seems regardless, it's worth getting a Blu2 for your DAVE if you have any decent disc collection of any type (or even just ripped files).
True or not?
Thanks again.


----------



## ray-dude

rgs9200m said:


> I guess I should modify my original question to ask how a Blu2 + DAVE combo sounds with DSD files.
> Does the native DSD processing on the DAVE still function?
> And does playback in this mode (if possible) sound better than direct playback of DSD files through DAVE in DSD mode?
> 
> [I'm only asking this because I have a DAVE along with an SACD collection, so it matters to me.]



I believe with Blu2, the input to DAVE is 24/768kHz PCM, not any sort of DSD on PCM.  You would keep the DAVE in PCM Plus mode with HF filter off.  Based on my naive read of the DAVE block diagrams, DAVE would only be applying crossfeed (if any) and volume control to the signal from the Blu2.

With the Blu2, I believe it is converting to PCM as a first step, but that is from a vague memory (unfortunately, I did not save a link to that discussion).  I'm sure others can answer your question more definitively.

I have not done a rigorous DSD64 (from SACD rip) vs Redbook (from hybrid SACD rip) comparison, but in the past that has been challenging for me since the redbook layer and SACD layers may be mastered differently.  If you have a reference SACD, let me know and I can see if I have it. I can give DSD vs redbook PCM a quick audition for you.


----------



## ray-dude

rgs9200m said:


> Well, it seems regardless, it's worth getting a Blu2 for your DAVE if you have any decent disc collection of any type (or even just ripped files).
> True or not?
> Thanks again.



Oh hell yeah!  I put out a 10k word opus detailing why (link in my .sig)  Revelatory.


----------



## rgs9200m (Jan 19, 2018)

Yep, I read your awesome epic on the Blu2. That's what has the Blu in my sights. Thanks again.
I would hope that Chord can confirm that with the Blu that DAVE must be in PCM+ mode (or not).

And I'm assuming that you can still keep your USB input to DAVE active as an alternate source vs. the Blu (so you can use DAVE in DSD mode for DSD files).


----------



## dmance

New Stereophile Article!
https://www.stereophile.com/content/chords-million-tap-digital-filter


----------



## maxh22

@Rob Watts Can you mention the exact model number of the MSI laptop you are using?


----------



## Ross

I'm starting to get a bit concerned with Chord's quality control.

First, the cd transport in my Blu 2 does not work. Now I have just discovered that the headphone output has the channels reversed. I'm not sure how that is even possible, since the headphone socket appears to be soldered directly to the pcb, so there does not seem to be any way that the incorrect wires could be connected. I have checked the cabling and tested with three different sets of headphones. At first I thought it might be a problem with Roon, but I get the same result with JRiver. The RCA and XLR outputs are fine. Very strange. I have contacted my dealer, who I'm sure will address the issue quickly. 

On the plus side, the DAVE/Blu 2 does sound amazing. I have just posted the following comments on a different forum:

_I recently bought a Chord DAVE and swiftly followed it with the Blu2. This was far more than I ever imagined I would spend on any source, let alone a digital one.


 Around the same time I spent a week with the Ayre QX5 Twenty. I have previously owned a range of DACs, including the Metrum Pavane, Meitner MA1, Resonessence Invicta Mirus, Auralic Vega, Calyx Femto, as well as the Chord Hugo and QBD76 and a few others.  


 The DAVE/Blu2 is on a different planet to every other DAC I have heard. It took me a while to get a handle on what it is doing. Doing an A/B comparison with another DAC will not really demonstrate its strengths. The difference is not detail, or soundstage, or dynamics, or timbre, or any of the other usual audiophile standards, although it is as good as anything else at those. It is the sense of presence and naturalness, the "realness" of the sound that subtly creeps up on you. The ability to relax and forget about the medium. 


 I have always been an analog guy and have always regarded digital as a secondary source to vinyl. No matter how good the digital source,  there was always something fundamentally artificial and unsatisfying about it. And despite vinyl's obvious limitations, there was always something fundamentally "right" about its sound which, on a good turntable, was very satisfying, and which digital had never achieved. 


 That was until the DAVE/Blu2. Finally, digital has gotten in the same ballpark as vinyl in terms of realism, presence and the ability to be musically satisfying at a deep level. This is not to say that the DAVE sounds "analog" or like vinyl (as most reviews say about most DACs). It clearly sounds digital (in a good way), with all the benefits of digital - silent backgrounds, incredible detail, perfect tonality, lack of distortion. But it is equally as satisfying and engaging as vinyl, without trying to replicate the sound of a turntable or adding artificial warmth or smoothness. I have no doubt this because of Rob Watts' unique design and the proprietary filters his FPGA uses. 



 And I think these qualities only become apparent over time. You need to listen to a well run-in unit for weeks, not hours. And as I said earlier, an A/B comparison with another DAC is not the way to experience what DAVE offers. I can easily imagine that other DACs may sound more impressive at a superficial level in that type of comparison. While DAVE's strengths may be subtle, they are profound. _​


----------



## Jozurr

This isn't the first time I've heard the CD player on the BLU2 failing. A friend had received a demo unit where the CD would skip and stutter many times. Surprising some considering CD players from decades ago work just fine.


----------



## Ross

Ross said:


> ... Now I have just discovered that the headphone output has the channels reversed. I'm not sure how that is even possible, since the headphone socket appears to be soldered directly to the pcb, so there does not seem to be any way that the incorrect wires could be connected. I have checked the cabling and tested with three different sets of headphones. At first I thought it might be a problem with Roon, but I get the same result with JRiver. The RCA and XLR outputs are fine. Very strange. I have contacted my dealer, who I'm sure will address the issue quickly.



Okay, ignore this. I've figured out the problem. I had connected the two BNC cables in reverse. I thought these were just data cables and not stereo channels. All is now fixed.


----------



## rayl

Ross said:


> Okay, ignore this. I've figured out the problem. I had connected the two BNC cables in reverse. I thought these were just data cables and not stereo channels. All is now fixed.



I had that thought but why would xlr/rca be reversed from headphone?


----------



## Ross

rayl said:


> I had that thought but why would xlr/rca be reversed from headphone?



They weren't - I had in fact reversed the RCA cables, although the XLR cables were correct.


----------



## Rob Watts

maxh22 said:


> @Rob Watts Can you mention the exact model number of the MSI laptop you are using?


It's an MSI 17.3" GT72S 6QF, UHD panel, Core i7 6820HK 2.7 GHz, 32GB RAM...


----------



## jscmd2000

Is it normal for the round display on the Dave to go off and on once in a while in the middle of playing a track?  It seems kind of random.


----------



## miketlse (Jan 20, 2018)

jscmd2000 said:


> Is it normal for the round display on the Dave to go off and on once in a while in the middle of playing a track?  It seems kind of random.


I seem to remember something like this being explained by Rob Watts.
This sequence of posts talks about the display blinking.
Hope they answer your question..


----------



## jscmd2000

Found it, thanks!


----------



## Jawed

It's DAVE saving settings. If you don't change anything (volume, crossfeed etc.) it won't blink. 

As far as I can tell, it waits 33 seconds maximum before saving. When you make an adjustment it will countdown 33 seconds. If you make another adjustment just before 33 seconds have passed, that adjustment will also be saved.


----------



## jscmd2000

Thanks!  Good to know it isn't broken.  I only saw it in my peripheral vision at first so wasn't sure but caught it couple of time.


----------



## jlbrach

yes mine does it as well


----------



## jonstatt

jscmd2000 said:


> Thanks!  Good to know it isn't broken.  I only saw it in my peripheral vision at first so wasn't sure but caught it couple of time.



Actually it is mentioned in the manual. I found mine blanks after a new track is playing as well. Must be the way the streamer drops and restarts the signal between tracks.


----------



## spotforscott

Relatively new to this board. Been lurking for a bit because of my interest in purchasing a DAVE and ultimately a Blu2.

Just received my DAVE yesterday! With some guidance from @romaz through email (thanks very much Roy) and others who have posted here, I have successfully hooked up the DAVE directly to my Rethm Maarga speakers. They are very efficient (97 db/w/m sensitivity), impedance is 8 ohms nominal, no crossovers and have powered bass drivers built in. I was previously driving them with an Allnic T1500 300b integrated amp.

I wanted to make sure that this combo could work before ordering custom speaker cables to connect RCA output from DAVE to the speakers via banana connector. To do this test, I used a couple of old RCA IC's, opening up the positive and negative on one side to connect to the speakers.

Happy to report that the test was very successful! The DAVE definitely has enough power to drive my Maarga's. I was sitting about 9' away from them in a relatively large room. Amazed out the volume I could get to with this combo. Even with the crappy, hacked together RCA cable, it sounds very good, considering. Can't wait to get new cables in place. I also have some work to do on the media server side.

This is a great forum


----------



## Clive101

thunder 99 said:


> Oh really, I turn it off using the Power button on the remote - everything connected turns off.
> Yes I have bypassed P10 as well with same hiss in the channel.
> Yea I think there may be an issue as well. So sad.


May I enquire did you get the hiss problem resolved..?
Thank you


----------



## Tom Blake

I am possibly interested on the new Focal Kanta No. 2 loudspeakers. They are 91dB efficient at 8 ohms. I imagine they are not quite efficient enough to be driven directly by DAVE? If so, they are probably a very good candidate to use with the digital amp which I believe is targeted at around 20 WPC?


----------



## ray-dude

2W would be light I think. You should also look to audition to see what transparency loss you get from the crossovers. In my dabbling, crossovers have been brutal On the Chord magic...you really need to haul your Chord kit with you to auditions (says the guy that is taking a 3000 mile day trip today with 40-50 pounds of BluDAVE and Hugo2 to audition some speakers


----------



## musickid

good luck with the trip


----------



## Triode User

Its not tidy but this is my home office where I listen to Dave for up to 10 hours per day.

110W per channel, not 2W. Transparent, delightful, organic, moving, wonderful.



Currently streaming Radio 3.


----------



## Rob Watts

I used to love listening to Radio 3 - particularly Through the night on iplayer - but two stages of SRC (44.1>48>44.1) and AAC 320 just is not HD. It's painfully obvious that it just does not compare to anything like 44.1/16 bit. Frankly the BBC should be sued for false advertising for claiming this is HD sound.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Triode User said:


> Its not tidy but this is my home office where I listen to Dave for up to 10 hours per day.
> 
> 110W per channel, not 2W. Transparent, delightful, organic, moving, wonderful.
> 
> ...


Any sonic improvement with the P10? Have you tried quality shielded cords from the P10 to your equipment?


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> Any sonic improvement with the P10? Have you tried quality shielded cords from the P10 to your equipment?



No improvement noticed but then none was sought nor anticipated.

The P10 is really there to provide a stable mains voltage which in turn provides stable voltages within the valves. If the 845 valves are meant to be 1000V they get a bit hot and bothered if they actually end up with 1100V or even more plate voltages.

I make all my own mains cables from Belden 2.5mm2 CY cable which comes screened anyway so it seems silly not to earth the screen although again, no improvement noticed, sought nor anticipated! I would like to think that my home grown main cables come with your category of "quality shielded cords"!


----------



## rkt31

Chord mojo playing diy 5 inch sealed box speakers directly.


----------



## onsionsi

rkt31 said:


> Chord mojo playing diy 5 inch sealed box speakers directly.




Awesome 

May i know what is the drivers of this Speakers and did make a DIY for the body of this speakers?

Also, does the Mojo is more efficient to power this speaker?

and what is the type of cable did you use, i would prefer to post the link from where did you buy these cables.


----------



## rgs9200m

That's a gorgeous system you have there Triode User. I'm definitely envious. Best to you and thanks for posting the photo.


----------



## tunes (Feb 2, 2018)

Do you think the HUGO 2 direct to Omega ALNICO XRS speakers in near field can be adequate without a sub as an intermediate bridge to CHORD Dave direct until I can afford to buy a DAVE? I am also waiting to see a cheaper upscaler with a CD transport for either HUGO 2 or DAVE.


----------



## rrolls

tunes said:


> Do you think the HUGO 2 direct to Omega ALNICO XRS speakers in near field can be adequate without a sub as an intermediate bridge to CHORD Dave direct until I can afford to buy a DAVE? I am also waiting to see a cheaper upscaler with a CD transport for either HUGO 2 or DAVE.



Below post is from last year.
Since then nothing have changed, bass is very good, no sub, please. There is not much of a difference to Dave, just 3dB, 2Watts vs 1Watt.
There are more happy Chord/Omega users around, so there is really no risk to buy. And by the way, the CD transport is an invariable tool to evaluate streaming devices/servers, and it has been said that it is not so easy to reach the same or even better quality than CD. 

quote 2017:
Our daily experience with Hugo2 or DAVE is different, I would like to clarfiy this, otherwise people may think that it is sounds like you have put the handbrake.
No, both Hugo and DAVE can go very loud with our Omegas (97db), we tried it the first evening, when
my good friend had just bought Hugo2 (look above for the walnut Omegas test setup), and after a couple of minutes we had to lower the volume, the room is about 50m2. And there is more:
The sound does not get congested at higher volumes, I have not heard them running out of steam yet.


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> Do you think the HUGO 2 direct to Omega ALNICO XRS speakers in near field can be adequate without a sub as an intermediate bridge to CHORD Dave direct until I can afford to buy a DAVE? I am also waiting to see a cheaper upscaler with a CD transport for either HUGO 2 or DAVE.



Only you can decide on the definition of 'adequate'. 

Personally I do not find any single driver speakers to be adequate and find much sympathy for those who liken them to be only suitable for 'girl-with-banjo' type of music. This is nothing to do with the power available from Hugo2 or Dave or the efficiency of the speakers but merely a reflection on the inability of any single driver to deliver distortion free music over a wide frequency range.


----------



## spotforscott

Guess it comes down to personal preferences. I have had many multi-driver speakers and none have engaged me in the way that my widebander Rethm Maargas do especially when driven by a quality 300B amp or by the DAVE (current set up). But hey, there is no right or wrong, just what "floats your boat".


----------



## Triode User

spotforscott said:


> Guess it comes down to personal preferences. I have had many multi-driver speakers and none have engaged me in the way that my widebander Rethm Maargas do especially when driven by a quality 300B amp or by the DAVE (current set up). But hey, there is no right or wrong, just what "floats your boat".



Yep. +1


----------



## ray-dude

spotforscott said:


> Guess it comes down to personal preferences. I have had many multi-driver speakers and none have engaged me in the way that my widebander Rethm Maargas do especially when driven by a quality 300B amp or by the DAVE (current set up). But hey, there is no right or wrong, just what "floats your boat".



A wide bander supplemented at the bass and sub-bass is pretty incredible.  I was blown away by what I heard with the Voxativ 9.87's.  The bipole bass units were pretty amazingly blended with the main single drivers (I've never heard a separate bass unit be so clean), with a natural acoustic crossover around 100Hz.  I was concerned that it would be too high, but with BluDAVE, it was so far beyond what the Omegas could do (which is already phenomenal) that I wasn't going to be able to discern anything during a 6 hour audition.  

I have not yet been able to hear the 9.87's side by side with my B&W 802d3's, but the presence and impact on large scale pieces and big "wall of sound" type pieces (areas the Omegas tend not to shine as bright) was pretty damn impressive.  Even with 2W from the BluDAVE in a pretty well treated room, the room and house were shaking.  

As background, the Voxativ 4D drivers that I was listening to have 103dB sensitivity, and the bass units in the 9.87s each have their own 250W class A/B amp driving 2x 98dB sensitivity drivers = 99dB (!) in a bipole configuration to keep bass tight and controlled.  I have not had a chance to hear them yet, but the Voxativ 4F driver has 106dB efficiency(!).  You're getting into a range where the speed and dynamics of a widebander are able to deliver a level of control sufficient to easily overcome a lot of the traditional challenges with single driver designs, esp. if you're able to off load the bass and sub bass

Hopefully I'll be able to report on BluDAVE -> Benchmark -> B&Ws vs BluDAVE -> Voxativ's within the next month or so.


----------



## spotforscott

I have not heard the Voxativ 9.87's but they sound awesome. My Rethm Maargas have a 97db efficiency and two built-in self-powered bass drivers, housed in the cabinet through a sealed Isobaric chamber. I can dial in volume and crossover point through built-in PEQ. The bass drivers blend seamlessly with the single driver. Works really well with only 2 watts.


----------



## ray-dude

tunes said:


> Do you think the HUGO 2 direct to Omega ALNICO XRS speakers in near field can be adequate without a sub as an intermediate bridge to CHORD Dave direct until I can afford to buy a DAVE? I am also waiting to see a cheaper upscaler with a CD transport for either HUGO 2 or DAVE.



I have a couple friends that are very happy with Omega Compact Alnico Monitors + Hugo2 in a near field or near near field configuration, and they are currently running without a sub.  They're both looking at getting something modest like the Monoprice THX select subs ($500) as a bridge to wherever they go next, but the CAMs will definitely have a more limited low end than the XRS's.

I found the CAMs + Hugo2 to be extremely satisfying at reasonable volume levels, with occasional sound stage blurring with the BluHugo2 during more complex and aggressive passages (large scale orchestral works, etc).  The blurring was more prominent with BluHugo2 (very difficult to pick out with Hugo2 alone), mainly because the details and holographic qualities of the soundstage with BluHugo2 are so striking; it is easier to hear limits when your starting point is at that level.  My hypothesis (e.g., wild ass guess) is that this is due more to the differences in the power supplies between the Hugo2 (battery) and DAVE (table top) than the 1W vs 2W output power, but that is a theory that will require a Qutest or (in the future) Hugo2TT to test.

I have not yet had a chance to hear the Omega XRS's (just the Super Alnico Moniors and the Compact Alnico Monitors), so I can't comment on how the Hugo2 will drive them direct.  From the sensitivity spec that Louis has published, it seems like it would be in the same ballpark as the CAMs and SAMs.


----------



## mozes

I enjoyed the H2 powering my Omega Super 8XRS directly for more than a week. It is very capable and it sounded great with decent bottom end.  Overall it was good especially with vocals and micro details. If you have listened to Dave driving the Omegas, then you realize the limitations of H2. Sound is thinner and lighter bass, but if you have no Dave, then enjoy it by all means!


----------



## musicday

Very interested reading about Dave/Hugo 2 driving Omega speakers directly. Sounds like a good all-around solution for the ones with limited budget. Watching Netflix with Hugo 2 and Omega speakers will sound good? Large soundstage? Anyone experienced?


----------



## jayz (Feb 2, 2018)

tunes said:


> I am also waiting to see a cheaper upscaler with a CD transport for either HUGO 2 or DAVE.



I am also waiting for a cheaper upscaler but cannot see the logic in bundling an MScaler with a CD transport. Anything mechanical adds $$$ both upfront costs plus maintenance overhead. My prediction is in the coming years there will be an MScaler and a 2go derived source priced for the Qutest demography. Rob has clearly stated that with current silicon tech, the MScaler requires at least 10A of current so assuming a nominal voltage,  that means portable on-the-go solutions are some way out which leaves desktop only solutions.

Regarding the single-driver, multi-driver argument, IMO both have limitations. I've never yet come across a single driver speaker capable of both energy and articulation (together) at the extremes. This means (as others have pointed out) you are limited in the genres you can listen to and will certainly be below live performance levels. Current material tech means we hit limits of physics very quickly. At the other end, there are so called full-range multi driver speakers with multiple crossover points but what most people don't realise is that at each of these crossover points, even with steep order curves, there are shared regions of the audible spectrum where separate drivers with cones having very different properties are expected to react identically to the incoming signal and that is an almost impossible thing to achieve from the point of view of basic physics. Never seen a speaker manufacturer bold enough to publish actual/verified phase distortion characteristics across the audible spectrum. The result is either they image poorly, sound too bright/harsh or too warm altogether and what do we do - desperately go in search of cables and components to balance it out and our dear old hifi dealer friends have found a way to make a living out of this.


----------



## draytonklammer

Anyone have Yggy gen 5 vs Dave thoughts?
Also, if you do (even without the gen 5 part) any thoughts on it with the Abyss Phi?


----------



## jscmd2000

I decided to go the Eitr route for my Yggy.  It was definitely a noticeable upgrade as I am sure the gen 5 usb upgrade would be.  
My Phi connected to Rag/Yggy does sound fantastic with plenty of power.  Phi connected to the Dave certainly has the edge on detail and resolution which I prefer.  It doesn't sound under driven to me probably because I haven't tried Dave/Rag combo (as the Rag/Yggy are in my office downstairs and the Dave in the bedroom upstairs).


----------



## draytonklammer

jscmd2000 said:


> I decided to go the Eitr route for my Yggy.  It was definitely a noticeable upgrade as I am sure the gen 5 usb upgrade would be.
> My Phi connected to Rag/Yggy does sound fantastic with plenty of power.  Phi connected to the Dave certainly has the edge on detail and resolution which I prefer.  It doesn't sound under driven to me probably because I haven't tried Dave/Rag combo (as the Rag/Yggy are in my office downstairs and the Dave in the bedroom upstairs).



I'm considering getting a Dave to pair with my Moon Neo. 

It's a hard decision though. 

I either get a Dave or a Shangri La Jr.


----------



## dmance (Feb 2, 2018)

Darko Audio has a shootout (sort of...) of DAVE-vs-Directstream when married to Genelec 8341 monitors. 
https://darko.audio/2018/02/genelecs-the-ones-8341-think-inside-the-box/


----------



## jscmd2000

draytonklammer said:


> I'm considering getting a Dave to pair with my Moon Neo.
> 
> It's a hard decision though.
> 
> I either get a Dave or a Shangri La Jr.



I think the general consensus is that since all amps add some color, some more than others, you end up losing detail and resolution of the Dave.  I know some people who own the Moon Neo and are extremely happy, sounds like you might be one of them, but not one Dave/Abyss owner who likes the Moon Neo.  I think their complaint is mainly with the treble.  I've heard several Dave/Abyss owners talk very highly of one of Simaudio's speaker amps, don't remember which model, but I remember thinking I will probably electrocute myself. I know one Dave/Abyss owner who swears by the GSX, but I find the Phi already bordering sibilant.  

I am quite happy driving my Phi directly out of the Dave so far with plenty of low end and depth. But then, I only know what I know, so...


----------



## draytonklammer

jscmd2000 said:


> I think the general consensus is that since all amps add some color, some more than others, you end up losing detail and resolution of the Dave.  I know some people who own the Moon Neo and are extremely happy, sounds like you might be one of them, but not one Dave/Abyss owner who likes the Moon Neo.  I think their complaint is mainly with the treble.  I've heard several Dave/Abyss owners talk very highly of one of Simaudio's speaker amps, don't remember which model, but I remember thinking I will probably electrocute myself. I know one Dave/Abyss owner who swears by the GSX, but I find the Phi already bordering sibilant.
> 
> I am quite happy driving my Phi directly out of the Dave so far with plenty of low end and depth. But then, I only know what I know, so...



Thanks for the reply!

I've been heavily considering just driving it purely through the DAVE.


----------



## Hifi Boy

dmance said:


> Darko Audio has a shootout (sort of...) of DAVE-vs-Directstream when married to Genelec 8341 monitors.
> https://darko.audio/2018/02/genelecs-the-ones-8341-think-inside-the-box/


Dave seems to be better than even the newest RedCloud updated DirectStream DAC.

I guess none of us saw that coming!


----------



## musicday

Always wanted a Dave so anyone  in  UK considering trading his Dave, PM i have some nice audio items.
Thanks.


----------



## Sonic77

draytonklammer said:


> Anyone have Yggy gen 5 vs Dave thoughts?
> Also, if you do (even without the gen 5 part) any thoughts on it with the Abyss Phi?


I haven't heard the Yggy gen 5, but I listen to my Abyss Phi connected to WA33 tube amp, the dac I'm using is the PS Audio Directstream with Redcloud operating system. Even tho I own the Blu Dave, I prefer the PS Audio dac, it just sounds better to my ears.


----------



## simorag (Feb 5, 2018)

jscmd2000 said:


> Phi connected to the Dave certainly has the edge on detail and resolution which I prefer.  It doesn't sound under driven to me probably because I haven't tried Dave/Rag combo (as the Rag/Yggy are in my office downstairs and the Dave in the bedroom upstairs).



Enjoying the DAVE / Abyss Phi combo since a few weeks, and I am not feeling that the DAVE holds back the Phi even with challenging tracks for dynamics like large orchestra, drum solos, organ etc..

I was used to drive the Phi with an Audio GD NOS 11 DAC / amp with plenty of juice (8W class A at 40Ohm, balanced) and I am not missing its raw power so far.

Maximum listening level I reached with the DAVE / Phi is -2dB with some low level classical recordings. According to Rob Watts, the DAVE should not add noticeable distortion or clipping until pushed over +4dB (its maximum is +19dB) so I believe the available headroom, at least for my tastes / habits / music preferences, is reasonably high.

The transparency and resolution of the DAVE with the Phi is astonishing, I often forget I am listening via headphones.

Another definite plus is the crossfeed functionality that, with some recordings where the soundstage lateralization is too apparent, brings back a more realistic imaging. I tried various crossfeed software in the past but did not like them, it seems that the DAVE implementation has some "magic" that preserves tonal integrity and transparency.


----------



## jlbrach (Feb 3, 2018)

I have the Dave/Blu2 combo with the Phi and I find i listen between -20 and -5 for the most part...I understand the Blu 2 reduces volume by 3 DB so with Dave only that would translate to -23 to -8.....I listen mostly to rock,blues and jazz so maybe that accounts for the difference...on some older jazz  recordings that are mono or just mastered at low volume I go to -5  or perhaps a bit beyond...with some newly mastered rock i end up around -20 or even a tick behind that......I do not have any issues with the ability of the combo to drive the Phi for the most part....perhaps if i listened to a lot of classical I would think differently


Sonic77 said:


> I haven't heard the Yggy gen 5, but I listen to my Abyss Phi connected to WA33 tube amp, the dac I'm using is the PS Audio Directstream with Redcloud operating system. Even tho I own the Blu Dave, I prefer the PS Audio dac, it just sounds better to my ears.



I happen to also have Dave/Blu 2 and the ps audio dac...i use the ps audio with my speaker system because of the bridge 2 which allows me to integrate with roon....i am a fan of the ps audio and think it is outstanding for the price and love the upgrades but it is  not in the league of the Dave/blu and that is not a negative comment because the dave/blu is several times more expensive and IMHO perhaps as good as any digital option no matter price.....just one mans opinion


----------



## draytonklammer

Thanks for all the thoughts everyone!

Really starting to think I might take the dive.


----------



## Sonic77

jlbrach said:


> I have the Dave/Blu2 combo with the Phi and I find i listen between -20 and -5 for the most part...I understand the Blu 2 reduces volume by 3 DB so with Dave only that would translate to -23 to -8.....I listen mostly to rock,blues and jazz so maybe that accounts for the difference...on some older jazz  recordings that are mono or just mastered at low volume I go to -5  or perhaps a bit beyond...with some newly mastered rock i end up around -20 or even a tick behind that......I do not have any issues with the ability of the combo to drive the Phi for the most part....perhaps if i listened to a lot of classical I would think differently
> 
> 
> I happen to also have Dave/Blu 2 and the ps audio dac...i use the ps audio with my speaker system because of the bridge 2 which allows me to integrate with roon....i am a fan of the ps audio and think it is outstanding for the price and love the upgrades but it is  not in the league of the Dave/blu and that is not a negative comment because the dave/blu is several times more expensive and IMHO perhaps as good as any digital option no matter price.....just one mans opinion



Yup we all have our own opinions and preferences, for example I'm not impressed with the headphone out of the Dave, (sucks) but that's my opinion.


----------



## jlbrach

It sure is and a minority opinion


----------



## astrostar59

rgs9200m said:


> Anyway, everyone should really hear how great the DAVE/LCD4 combo is. I can even listen to all my Beatles stuff (including lots of rare stuff / alternative unreleased versions/recording sessions that are now available) with great depth and reach with no annoying digital glare or brashness). It's the next best thing to DSD.
> 
> I use NO EQ AT ALL with any of my headphones with any of my music with the DAVE.
> 
> Essentially miraculous.



Interesting subject here. I am playing around with my system at the moment, and just sold out my 009s and 007As plus Carbon amp, for a simpler system. I heard the LCD4 out of the DAVE at Can-Jam in London last year as was surpassed how good it sounded and how well the DAVE was driving it. It got me thinking. Could I too drive direct somehow from my DAC?

At the moment I have a stand-in AMR DP-777 NOS DAC with tubed gain stage. I am using this to feed my really simply Metrum Aurix (on low gain setting) to drive the LCD2 Classic 2018 model. Plenty of gain here. I have the LCD4 arriving next week. I believe the LCD4 is 12dB less efficient more or less using the data off Audeze into a watts calculator. In low gain the Aurix is basically a constant impedance potentiometer, no gets or anything messing with the signal going through it.

The DAVE puts out 6.6v I think. I have a different DAC incoming in a few eels which has powerful tube gain stage in it, basically a full pre-amplifier based on the Aries Cerat Incito. The output is 10v at a low impedance of 50ohms. Thus it has 5 times more voltage and probably a lot more current. 

My current idea is if the DAC used has enough gain, volts and current, and can handle driving a HP at 200 ohms, then I may experience exactly what you guys are enjoying driving your HPs directly from the DAVE. I would not recommend connecting any line out to your HPs, even it the DAC has volume control built in, as a line out is expecting to see a 10K load at least at the pre-amp or power amp next stage. A 200 ohms load is way too low and the DAC gain stage will probably run out of juice very quickly, resulting in odd FR and maybe even phase shifts?

The Aurix has a 25K input then the Alpha pot. The other cool thing (if this works out) is I use the protection circuitry in the little Aurix, and can defeat the sound if I want to use my speakers.
*
Any thoughts guys on the subject of the DAVE direct to your cans v DAVE and a HP amplifier. *


----------



## Jawed

astrostar59 said:


> The output is 10v at a low impedance of 50ohms.


50 Ohms is not low impedance - it's disastrously high and will substantially change the frequency response of most headphones you connect.



> I would not recommend connecting any line out to your HPs, even it the DAC has volume control built in, as a line out is expecting to see a 10K load at least at the pre-amp or power amp next stage. A 200 ohms load is way too low and the DAC gain stage will probably run out of juice very quickly, resulting in odd FR and maybe even phase shifts?


Hugo, Hugo TT, Hugo 2 and DAVE all have RCA outputs that are full power into headphones - exactly the same as the headphone socket.

Now playing: Dave Brubeck Quartet - Three to get Ready


----------



## draytonklammer

So you guys are saying it's safe to plug in my Abyss to the balanced output on the back?

I'd be tempted to try it when I get a Dave.


----------



## Jawed

No the XLRs on the back of DAVE are low power and will not drive headphones happily.


----------



## astrostar59

I think you will find met DACs have an output impedance around this figure. For example the benchmark:
https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-dac3-hgc-digital-to-analog-audio-converter

which is 60 ohms. Genrally they say you need a factor of 10, so 50 ohms out, 500 ohms input impedance minimum.

Also you will find (for example) most of the Lampizator DACs output at 3-10Kohms spending which model.
As I stated, my method is to use the Aurix as pass through which has an input impedance of 25K ohms. Works perfect on 2v and feeding my LCD2s. Just now need to see how it works on my next DAC.

Interesting looking at the Hugo2, it's HP outputs 94mW into 300 ohms, so maybe 150mW into 200 ohms, and Audeze give it the thumbs up for the LCD4. Maybe we don't need 1-4 Watts after all?


----------



## astrostar59

Thanks for the info.

Looking at Ohms law tables just now, and the 94mW at 1% distortion at 300 ohms on the *Hugo2* 
(looks like there max output) we have:
Resistance (_R_): 300
Current (_I_): 0.0177
Voltage (_V_): 5.13
Power (_P_): 94mW

*which would be roughly (for the CD4):*
Resistance (_R_): 200
Current (_I_): 0,0216794834
Voltage (_V_): 4,33589668
Power (_P_): 125mW

*The DAVE is 6.8v quoted at 1% distortion, so again, assume that is the max output.

so we have:*
Resistance (_R_): 200
Current (_I_): 0,034
Voltage (_V_): 6.8
Power (_P_): 231.2mW

So we can see the DAVE has almost double the Watts available at the HP output.

Thus I am thinking 10v on my incoming DAC is 1.47 times that figure, so may get away with it on the LCD4 (I hope).

So I am thinking the DAVE can technically play louder than the Hugo2, and has more current so better for dynamics and bass (for example).

Thanks for the input guys.


----------



## jlbrach

astrostar59 said:


> Interesting subject here. I am playing around with my system at the moment, and just sold out my 009s and 007As plus Carbon amp, for a simpler system. I heard the LCD4 out of the DAVE at Can-Jam in London last year as was surpassed how good it sounded and how well the DAVE was driving it. It got me thinking. Could I too drive direct somehow from my DAC?
> 
> At the moment I have a stand-in AMR DP-777 NOS DAC with tubed gain stage. I am using this to feed my really simply Metrum Aurix (on low gain setting) to drive the LCD2 Classic 2018 model. Plenty of gain here. I have the LCD4 arriving next week. I believe the LCD4 is 12dB less efficient more or less using the data off Audeze into a watts calculator. In low gain the Aurix is basically a constant impedance potentiometer, no gets or anything messing with the signal going through it.
> 
> ...



I have gone back and forth between LCD-4 straight out of Dave...in my case Dave/Blu2 and adding my Moon 430.....In the end i usually opt for straight out of the Dave  due to the transparency which is wonderful plus the Dave does a fine job driving the LCD-4 IMHO


----------



## astrostar59

Interesting indeed. So the Moon is rated at 20v and 3 times the DAVE output. How is the volume on the Moon v the DAVE?


----------



## ecwl

I normally listen to my DAVE with the Focal Utopia at volume settings between -20dB to -35dB depending on the music material. I had the pleasure of listening to the LCD4 with my DAVE at one of my local Head-Fi meets and I found myself setting the DAVE at -10dB to -20dB. However, I've found at these meets (and at my local stereo dealer) that I generally listen to music at 5-15dB quieter than most people. In fact, I think I met somebody at the local Head-Fi meet who clearly listens to music at 20dB louder than I do. Since DAVE clips at a volume setting of +4dB, I guess whether DAVE is loud enough for LCD4 would depend on your listening level. Everything was plugged into the headphone jack.

That said, at the Head-Fi meets, even with more efficient headphones, it was clear that some people just prefer having a headphone amp instead of direct out through DAVE. I never notice the issue being DAVE can't drive those headphones. I think different people just prefer different sound signatures (or distortions if I were less polite or more controversial). Prior to DAVE, I had the Benchmark DAC1 amp/DAC so I'd say the headphone amplification signatures are very similar and very neutral even though obviously the DAC in DAVE is in a completely different league.


----------



## Jawed

astrostar59 said:


> I think you will find met DACs have an output impedance around this figure. For example the benchmark:
> https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-dac3-hgc-digital-to-analog-audio-converter
> 
> which is 60 ohms. Genrally they say you need a factor of 10, so 50 ohms out, 500 ohms input impedance minimum.


"<0.11 ohms" is the quoted output impedance for the headphone socket.


----------



## rgs9200m (Feb 4, 2018)

If I listen to 10 different amps, they will all sound different and I will like some (much) better than others. The internal amp of my DAVE is one amp, so there is no reason to believe that I will always prefer that particular one.
And that has proven true for me.

I do get the feeling that some amps veer to the "straight wire with gain" camp, such as the Headamp GSX2. I feel the DAVE internal amp is in that camp.
For whatever reason, I had the GSX2 but moved on from it. I wanted a thicker atmosphere, if that makes sense to anyone out there.

 And yes, it (wire with gain) is a very transparent sound. But I like things such as the Apex Pinnacle, Ray Samuels B52, and the Rudistor RP010B. I chose these amps after 20 years of experimentation (and tube rolling and cable swapping).

It's a cliche, but the music with these amps just seems to fall out of the headphones and the images are plump and juicy and bloomy.
I don't know exactly why I like it but I do and wouldn't have it any other way. It seems more relaxing with no glare, but somehow I feel there is nothing lacking in the highs or in definition.
Subjective, sure, but I can't accept the idea of objectivity here. That just seems too dogmatic for me.

And this is no slight on Chord or the DAVE, which is a 100% awesome DAC to me. Pure magic.
It achieves the holy grail of being liquid/defined/unfatiguing all at once. It combines the best of analog and digital in one remarkable synthesis.

(I will also put in a good word for the Hugo TT which preceded my DAVE and gave me many happy hours of listening.)


----------



## draytonklammer

Well, RIP wallet.
Officially bought a Chord DAVE with the cradle.


----------



## JaZZ

You could have bought a second car instead.  But congratulations nonetheless!


----------



## x RELIC x

draytonklammer said:


> Well, RIP wallet.
> Officially bought a Chord DAVE with the cradle.



Congrats!

Silver or black?


----------



## draytonklammer

x RELIC x said:


> Congrats!
> 
> Silver or black?



It had to be black!


----------



## etnt

draytonklammer said:


> Well, RIP wallet.
> Officially bought a Chord DAVE with the cradle.


Enjoy your Dave while you revive the wallet to prep for the purchase of Blu


----------



## tunes (Feb 5, 2018)

ray-dude said:


> I have a couple friends that are very happy with Omega Compact Alnico Monitors + Hugo2 in a near field or near near field configuration, and they are currently running without a sub.  They're both looking at getting something modest like the Monoprice THX select subs ($500) as a bridge to wherever they go next, but the CAMs will definitely have a more limited low end than the XRS's.
> 
> I found the CAMs + Hugo2 to be extremely satisfying at reasonable volume levels, with occasional sound stage blurring with the BluHugo2 during more complex and aggressive passages (large scale orchestral works, etc).  The blurring was more prominent with BluHugo2 (very difficult to pick out with Hugo2 alone), mainly because the details and holographic qualities of the soundstage with BluHugo2 are so striking; it is easier to hear limits when your starting point is at that level.  My hypothesis (e.g., wild ass guess) is that this is due more to the differences in the power supplies between the Hugo2 (battery) and DAVE (table top) than the 1W vs 2W output power, but that is a theory that will require a Qutest or (in the future) Hugo2TT to test.
> 
> I have not yet had a chance to hear the Omega XRS's (just the Super Alnico Moniors and the Compact Alnico Monitors), so I can't comment on how the Hugo2 will drive them direct.  From the sensitivity spec that Louis has published, it seems like it would be in the same ballpark as the CAMs and SAMs.


How can a sub be used with the HUGO2 and Omega Alnico XRS??

I know the DAVE has an output for the sub but the HUGO 2 only has RCA out.


----------



## draytonklammer

etnt said:


> Enjoy your Dave while you revive the wallet to prep for the purchase of Blu



Thanks, haha.

Hoping it'll be a nice step up from my Yggy.


----------



## Triode User

draytonklammer said:


> Thanks, haha.
> 
> Hoping it'll be a nice step up from my Yggy.



Of course by getting the stand you have depleted the 'cash for blu2' fund! And also made the Blu2 more expensive because you will want a stand for that as well.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Triode User said:


> Of course by getting the stand you have depleted the 'cash for blu2' fund! And also made the Blu2 more expensive because you will want a stand for that as well.



But at least he will hear Dave as it was designed to be heard; without the haze of cabinet vibration. Though horses for courses,
it would not be as noticeably beneficial for those using tubes...the ultimate vibration machines.


----------



## draytonklammer

DaveRedRef-III said:


> But at least he will hear Dave as it was designed to be heard; without the haze of cabinet vibration. Though horses for courses,
> it would not be as noticeably beneficial for those using tubes...the ultimate vibration machines.



I'm thinking about using my headphones directly from the Dave.


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> But at least he will hear Dave as it was designed to be heard; without the haze of cabinet vibration. Though horses for courses,
> it would not be as noticeably beneficial for those using tubes...the ultimate vibration machines.



I take that in the spirit of fun which I think was intended!

Just on a serious note though, I don't think the stand for Dave or Blu2 has ever been flouted as a vibration reducing device. I can see no mention of anything like that on the Chord specification for the stand. It is pure bling.

Indeed, to quote Chord themselves, _"Precision machined from a solid block of aircraft grade aluminium, a work of art on its own, the Ensemble Stand is irrefutably the most satisfying way to display your Choral system components or stack."_


----------



## draytonklammer

Triode User said:


> I take that in the spirit of fun which I think was intended!
> 
> Just on a serious note though, I don't think the stand for Dave or Blu2 has ever been flouted as a vibration reducing device. I can see no mention of anything like that on the Chord specification for the stand. It is pure bling.
> 
> Indeed, to quote Chord themselves, _"Precision machined from a solid block of aircraft grade aluminium, a work of art on its own, the Ensemble Stand is irrefutably the most satisfying way to display your Choral system components or stack."_



I couldn't tell if he was poking fun either, but I've heard more than a few times that the cradle was meant to reduce vibrations to the Dave.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Triode User said:


> I take that in the spirit of fun which I think was intended!
> 
> Just on a serious note though, I don't think the stand for Dave or Blu2 has ever been flouted as a vibration reducing device. I can see no mention of anything like that on the Chord specification for the stand. It is pure bling.
> 
> Indeed, to quote Chord themselves, _"Precision machined from a solid block of aircraft grade aluminium, a work of art on its own, the Ensemble Stand is irrefutably the most satisfying way to display your Choral system components or stack."_




Hi TU
Chord affix quite sizeable vibration control pucks under each column. This is of a material commonly used for the purpose of vibration suppression. I believe Rob commented on that design intention shortly after release. The Red Ref iii integral stand and amp stands have the same principle.


----------



## etnt

and as you correctly mentioned, once u got the stand for dave, the blu just became that more costly with needing a matching stand.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Btw TU my tube comments were not meant other than friendly banter. I was a tubes fan for a number of years and recognise they do have things going for them but I recognised that vibration was their achilles heel. i am fastidious about vibration which was why I dropped tubes eventually despite having a soft spot for what they do well.


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Hi TU
> Chord affix quite sizeable vibration control pucks under each column. This is of a material commonly used for the purpose of vibration suppression. I believe Rob commented on that design intention shortly after release. The Red Ref iii integral stand and amp stands have the same principle.



Why then is there no mention at all of vibration control in the stand description in the Chord blurb? Surely they would emphasise that rather than just describing the bling factor?

BTW, I did pick up the friendly fun factor in your response and it made me smile. I used to have valves in both my systems and now have swopped to solid state for one system but I cannot give up valves completely as they also make me smile on a regular basis when listening to music through them.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Triode User said:


> Why then is there no mention at all of vibration control in the stand description in the Chord blurb? Surely they would emphasise that rather than just describing the bling factor?
> 
> BTW, I did pick up the friendly fun factor in your response and it made me smile. I used to have valves in both my systems and now have swopped to solid state for one system but I cannot give up valves completely as they also make me smile on a regular basis when listening to music through them.



Really not sure why they don’t shout about it because it is the best in-built manufacturers solution for vibration I have come across. It’s not just the pucks either. In my experience all the best vibration solutions work on a principle to get the weight transferred horizontally first before coming down vertically to the ground. I believe even Still Points work on that principle at a micro level.


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Really not sure why they don’t shout about it because it is the best in-built manufacturers solution for vibration I have come across. It’s not just the pucks either. In my experience all the best vibration solutions work on a principle to get the weight transferred horizontally first before coming down vertically to the ground. I believe even Still Points work on that principle at a micro level.



I am confused by your reference to vibration controlling pucks. As far as I can see the stand feet merely have the same small rubber 'feet' that are on the Dave itself and the same as are on the bottom of other Chord stands such as those for the amplifiers.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Feb 5, 2018)

Triode User said:


> I am confused by your reference to vibration controlling pucks. As far as I can see the stand feet merely have the same small rubber 'feet' that are on the Dave itself and the same as are on the bottom of other Chord stands such as those for the amplifiers.



Though miniature pucks, you have 12 instead of 4 and an aluminium frame which takes the weight out from under the Dave Dac before transferring to the ground. That second principle imo should not be underestimated TU imo as it gets the cabinet vibration out from under the Dac.

It also adds weight which reduces micro vibration further


----------



## miketlse

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Hi TU
> Chord affix quite sizeable vibration control pucks under each column. This is of a material commonly used for the purpose of vibration suppression. I believe Rob commented on that design intention shortly after release. The Red Ref iii integral stand and amp stands have the same principle.


I also remember rob posting once or twice, that all his dacs benefit from being placed on vibration reducing supports.


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Though miniature pucks, you have 12 instead of 4 and an aluminium frame which takes the weight out from under the Dave Dac before transferring to the ground. That second principle imo should not be underestimated TU imo as it gets the cabinet vibration out from under the Dac.
> 
> It also adds weight which reduces micro vibration further



Dave has 8 of the little rubber feet already instead of the 12 for the stand so I am really not that convinced about all of this. And to call them vibration reducing pucks is a stretch of the imagination anyway because they are relatively dense rubber (or whatever material) and are therefore not very compliant. I have similar much larger rubber door stops that I put under the outer feet of the Dave but that is only to raise Dave off the table to give more air movement. My rubber door stops cost £1.50 each and they will also take cabinet vibration (if any) out from under the DAC because they bring the support to the four extreme corners of the Dave.


----------



## JaZZ

tunes said:


> ...I know the DAVE has an output for the sub but the HUGO 2 only has RCA out...


...but also two headphone outputs switched in parallel to the RCA outputs.


----------



## tunes

JaZZ said:


> ...but also two headphone outputs switched in parallel to the RCA outputs.


So how does one add a sub to the RCA speaker output and select the frequency for it to kick in??  I assume Inwould need a powered sub to be used with Omega Alnico speakers. Which powered sub is best to keep up with the speed of the single driver???


----------



## ray-dude

tunes said:


> So how does one add a sub to the RCA speaker output and select the frequency for it to kick in??  I assume Inwould need a powered sub to be used with Omega Alnico speakers. Which powered sub is best to keep up with the speed of the single driver???



I use a sub that has a configurable low pass filter, master level, low pass filter slope, and polarity.  I drive my Omega Super Alnico Monitors direct (from DAVE and Hugo2) with nothing in the chain (to keep transparency at the max).  Using a sweep, I then position the sub to keep room boom to a manageable level, and (in the case of my sub) run the room correction routine built into the sub.  I then put the Omegas in and adjust the master level on the sub to match, rough in the LP filter and slope to blend, then fine tune polarity (basically maximize the overlap region), then come back to fine tune the LP and slope to finalize the blend.

I use a JL Audio F112v2, and the speed and low(er) distortion has been very impressive.  Nicely keeps up with the Omegas.  Friends have been considering the Monoprice THX select and Emotiva subs as a lower cost option for their CAMs, but no one has pulled a trigger yet.  From the spec, the Monoprice THX select subs look respectable, but I haven't heard them.

In my audition of the Voxativ speakers, the bass units with the 9.87s (which you can purchase separately) were off the charts in terms of speed, resolution, distortion, and manageability (not even in the same timezone...unbelievably good). Basically like having the ultimate full range speaker bass box more than having a sub.  The RiPole configuration with the custom Voxativ drivers (99dB sensitivity in a sub, with 250W class A/B amp!!) really is something special and worth seeking out at a show to hear for yourself.  $10k a pop though,


----------



## tunes (Feb 5, 2018)

ray-dude said:


> I use a sub that has a configurable low pass filter, master level, low pass filter slope, and polarity.  I drive my Omega Super Alnico Monitors direct (from DAVE and Hugo2) with nothing in the chain (to keep transparency at the max).  Using a sweep, I then position the sub to keep room boom to a manageable level, and (in the case of my sub) run the room correction routine built into the sub.  I then put the Omegas in and adjust the master level on the sub to match, rough in the LP filter and slope to blend, then fine tune polarity (basically maximize the overlap region), then come back to fine tune the LP and slope to finalize the blend.
> 
> I use a JL Audio F112v2, and the speed and low(er) distortion has been very impressive.  Nicely keeps up with the Omegas.  Friends have been considering the Monoprice THX select and Emotiva subs as a lower cost option for their CAMs, but no one has pulled a trigger yet.  From the spec, the Monoprice THX select subs look respectable, but I haven't heard them.
> 
> In my audition of the Voxativ speakers, the bass units with the 9.87s (which you can purchase separately) were off the charts in terms of speed, resolution, distortion, and manageability (not even in the same timezone...unbelievably good). Basically like having the ultimate full range speaker bass box more than having a sub.  The RiPole configuration with the custom Voxativ drivers (99dB sensitivity in a sub, with 250W class A/B amp!!) really is something special and worth seeking out at a show to hear for yourself.  $10k a pop though,


Did you hear the Pi speaker sitting on top of that sub?  The piano black stack?  Could a DAVE drive that without a tube amp???  So you mean the Voxativ 9.87 is the powered sub that the Pi sits on top of and they are $10 k each, and how much is the Pi single driver PI speaker each? It looks like that goes down to 20Hz so why even need a sub??

Anyway you lost me with the word sweep.  I like the idea of adding a powered sub to my Omega Alnico XRS floor standers driven by my HUGO2.  How do you wire it to the HUGO2?  Is a powered sub a stand alone speaker that picks up sound from the single driver with a microphone? Sorry I am so ignorant about this stuff as a newby.


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## esimms86 (Feb 5, 2018)

tunes said:


> Did you hear the Pi speaker sitting on top of that sub?  The piano black stack?  Could a DAVE drive that without a tube amp???  So you mean the Voxativ 9.87 is the powered sub that the Pi sits on top of and they are $10 k each, and how much is the Pi single driver PI speaker each? It looks like that goes down to 20Hz so why even need a sub??
> 
> Anyway you lost me with the word sweep.  I like the idea of adding a powered sub to my Omega Alnico XRS floor standers driven by my HUGO2.  How do you wire it to the HUGO2?  Is a powered sub a stand alone speaker that picks up sound from the single driver with a microphone? Sorry I am so ignorant about this stuff as a newby.


I’ve never heard the Voxativ 9.87 system but I have two pieces of information to offer. One, it comes in black or white(if that matters to your decor). Two, its sensitivity is rated at 99 to 105 dB/1 watt/1 meter (depending on configuration/options?) so it should be easily driven by DAVE. Depending on configuration options, the list price is $30, $40 or $50k for the pair. Obviously, not something you’d purchase without first doing extensive research and auditioning other excellent speakers in the same price class.

The Voxativ Pi is rated at 98 dB sensitivity/1 watt/1 meter.


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## musickid

for exclusive headphone listening is the best route h2 then add blu2 or go with the one box attractive dave option and worry about mscaler later. i would use h2 as a financial stepping stone towards dave. trying to forge a 2018 master plan with little luck so far. either way 5 months or so for major purchase. as a postgrad money is tight and dave would be most realistic as the h2 price could be deducted from dave via nintronics. advice appreciated. trying to get diverse points of view.


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## ray-dude (Feb 6, 2018)

tunes said:


> Did you hear the Pi speaker sitting on top of that sub?  The piano black stack?  Could a DAVE drive that without a tube amp???  So you mean the Voxativ 9.87 is the powered sub that the Pi sits on top of and they are $10 k each, and how much is the Pi single driver PI speaker each? It looks like that goes down to 20Hz so why even need a sub??
> 
> Anyway you lost me with the word sweep.  I like the idea of adding a powered sub to my Omega Alnico XRS floor standers driven by my HUGO2.  How do you wire it to the HUGO2?  Is a powered sub a stand alone speaker that picks up sound from the single driver with a microphone? Sorry I am so ignorant about this stuff as a newby.



Yes, the 9.87's (Pi*Pi) is the combination that has a Pi cabinet sitting on top of a bass unit (in my case, it was the piano black version).  The unit I auditioned had the Voxativ AC-4D driver, which is the upgraded driver (basically same specs as the AC-4X driver, but with an extra 1dB of sensitivity).  My BluDAVE drover it to room shaking levels with no problem at all.  I suspect Hugo2 could driver it to comfortable levels no problem.

In this configuration, the Pi box on top has some dampers in it to cause it to naturally roll off around 100Hz.  The bass unit is an active unit (it has a 250W class A/B amplifier built in), and has an equalizer built in.  You tune the cross over and bass boost to what works best in your room.  In the case of the audition room I was in, the bass unit was set to ~100Hz.  Is this this bass unit that takes the response down to a VERY clean 20Hz.

It is possible to buy the bass unit separately (retail ~$10k) and use with any speaker you like.  There is also a single driver of the bass unit for less money called the Voxativ Z (usually bundled with the Voxativ Zeth bundle, a more entry level line), but that is still retail $4k.  The Voxativ Z has a single 96dB sensitivity driver (vs 2 96dB drivers in the Voxativ PI Dipole Woofer System, which is the bass unit in the 9.87's)

By "sweep" I meant getting a music file that is a frequency sweep from 200Hz down to 20Hz (these are all over the internet, I happen to use one from one of the Chesky discs).  As the tone sweeps through the frequency range, I listen and adjust levels and cross over points and phase by ear until that it is as smooth as practical in your room (alas, at the low frequencies, nothing is ever ideal).  You can also go the extra mile and get a calibrated microphone and some software that does the sweep and measurements for you, then make adjustments until it is mostly flat.  This part of the process that I described would be the same with any subwoofer you're adding to the system.  There are different ways to set up a subwoofer and blend with your speakers.  I was describing the method I use, but at the end of the day you want have a smooth blend between your sub and your speaker.

If you want to learn more about this, there are lots of resources on the internet.  I just saw that 2xHD released a "Audiophile Speaker Setup" disc: https://2xhd.nativedsd.com/albums/2XHDFT1095-audiophile-speaker-setup

If you page through the booklet PDF, there is a section about how your adjust a subwoofer to match your speakers, with some nice figures that highlight what you're trying to do.  See:

https://dsd-files.s3.amazonaws.com/2xHD/2XHDFT1095/2XHDFT1095/2XHDFT1095.pdf

To answer your other question, a powered sub is basically a speaker with an amplifier built in.  If you connect it to your source (in your case Hugo2 or DAVE), it takes the normal output of the source them amplifies it so the sub can get all the power that it needs.  The trick is to set the "volume" level on the sub so that it matches the volume level on your regular speakers (this is the master level of the sub I was mentioned).  The next trick is to adjust the sub so it it falls off as the speaker begins to ramp up.  The sub can handle all the low frequencies then, and your speakers the other frequencies.  The low pass filter helps set where that hand off will be, and the other adjustments let you fine tune it so it is smooth.

Both DAVE and Hugo2 are able to drive your Omega speakers and a sub at the same time (using 2 of the outputs)


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## tunes (Feb 6, 2018)

ray-dude said:


> Yes, the 9.87's (Pi*Pi) is the combination that has a Pi cabinet sitting on top of a bass unit (in my case, it was the piano black person).  The unit I auditioned had the Voxativ AC-4D driver, which is the upgraded driver (basically same specs as the AC-4X driver, but with an extra 1dB of sensitivity).  My BluDAVE drover it to room shaking levels with no problem at all.  I suspect Hugo2 could driver it to comfortable levels no problem.
> 
> In this configuration, the Pi box on top has some dampers in it to cause it to naturally roll off around 100Hz.  The bass unit is an active unit (it has a 250W class A/B amplifier built in), and has an equalizer built in.  You tune the cross over and bass boost to what works best in your room.  In the case of the audition room I was in, the bass unit was set to ~100Hz.  Is this this bass unit that takes the response down to a VERY clean 20Hz.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for that detailed explanation but still confused about which output on the CHORD HUGO2 is used for the sub.  Right now I use the RCA out direct to the Omega.  Would I use one of the headphone out jacks for the sub?  Does it matter which channel goes to the sub, left or right?  What cable adapter is needed to go from HUGO2 to the SUB??

BTW I am saving up for a DAVE/FUTURE UPSCALER STAND-ALONE AND the 9.87's (Pi*Pi) after child support is over in my retirement.


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## tunes

Also, I couldn’t find the audiophile speaker set-up CD you referenced for sale anywhere. Where did you get it??

Thanks


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## esimms86 (Feb 6, 2018)

ray-dude said:


> Yes, the 9.87's (Pi*Pi) is the combination that has a Pi cabinet sitting on top of a bass unit (in my case, it was the piano black person).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ray-dude

Ha!  Corrected, and poster and autocorrect have been appropriately chastised


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## ray-dude

tunes said:


> Thanks so much for that detailed explanation but still confused about which output on the CHORD HUGO2 is used for the sub.  Right now I use the RCA out direct to the Omega.  Would I use one of the headphone out jacks for the sub?  Does it matter which channel goes to the sub, left or right?  What cable adapter is needed to go from HUGO2 to the SUB??
> 
> BTW I am saving up for a DAVE/FUTURE UPSCALER STAND-ALONE AND the 9.87's (Pi*Pi) after child support is over in my retirement.



Yes, for Hugo2 one headphone jack for speakers, one for sub (on the Hugo2 I believe you can use RCA jack and a headphone jack at the same time, but I haven't personally verified that).  On DAVE, plugging into the headphone out disables the RCA and XLR outs, so I use the RCA and XLR outs on the DAVE.

I feel your pain on support and retirement, but decided not to wait (I'm nervous my hearing will be shot by then


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## simorag (Feb 6, 2018)

After about three weeks enjoying the DAVE in combination with the Abyss Phi (for most of the time) and HD800S, I wanted to share my experience so far.

 

*Premise*

After lurking (or, better, drooling ) on the DAVE thread for one year, and reading the professional reviews, of course my expectations were huge. Coming from an Audio GD NOS 11 DAC / amp, the price tag ratio of 5x was reinforcing my confidence in a significant improvement of my listening experience, even after discounting the diminishing returns law effects.

At the same time, I was a bit concerned about the capability of the DAVE to drive the Abyss Phi at (or close to) their full potential (it seems there is no consensus about this in the head-fi community), and about the few negatives I read, like for instance some uber-analytical and unforgiving characteristics.

*First Impressions*

Well, since the very first seconds of listening, I was both relieved and disconcerted. The relief was due to the ease of drive that the DAVE exhibited with the Phi, while I was put out of balance from how different the sound presentation was, compared to what I had experienced before.

It was like an additional light source was added to a scene, thus making the three-dimensional volumes contours, the surface details and color qualities of the objects within that scene much more obvious.

The other immediate effect I got from the DAVE was its astonishing transparency (that old and worn-out visual cliché of the veil removal ...), providing a direct physical connection between me and the musicians or singers.

The combination of the holographic imaging and transparency increase, provided an added sense of realism to all elements of the music, which greatly enhanced my listening involvement since the beginning.

Where before the music was portrayed in a canvas, now it floated free, alive and real in the room 

And yes, I mean “room” and not “head”, because with many fortunate recordings, the Phi/DAVE presentation seemed to transcend the physical limitations of a headphone system.

*Highlights and Further Impressions*

Since that very first impression, I had voraciously rediscovered my music collection, taking some notes of the differences I was hearing, or of the feelings I had on some tracks, passages etc.

Summing up those notes, the best qualities (for my tastes) of the DAVE combined with the Phi and HD800S emerged quickly.

The most striking characteristic of the DAVE to me (after its 3D imaging and transparency) is how it handles transients. Guitar plucks, drums, trumpet attacks are startling.

This exceptional, effortless reproduction of dynamic changes, combined with a glorious presentation of the harmonics and decay following the transient itself makes listening to classical guitar or harpsichord pieces immensely enjoyable, especially with the DAVE/ Phi.

Another highlight is with baroque music, or jazz bands, due to excellent imaging and separation.

The vocals are rich, full of nuances, and the rock-solid focus provided by the DAVE lets you “see” the singer and his / her features (how open is the mouth, how he/she breathes, how the head is turned, how their fingers are placed when they snap them) in your imagination with no effort.

I had noticed some slightly recessed vocals positioning with the Phi + NOS 11, which is not the case anymore with the DAVE.

Also, some sub-optimal detail resolution of which I was blaming the Phi is not there anymore: the noise floor reduction and the ability of the DAVE to capture low level signals is fully delivered to my ears by the Phi (and by the HD800S as well, but with less delicacy and additional background noise).

Another notable difference with respect to my NOS 11 is with the Abyss Phi bass. While the extension seems as deep, the definition is improved significantly. Bass and even sub-bass lines within even complex tracks are much more articulated and defined.

I do not find that the DAVE is unforgiving, actually whatever I have played through the DAVE / Phi combo sounded at least “very good” to my ears, including lossy mp3 files that were barely listenable with the NOS 11 / HD800S rig.

By the way, I am impressed about how much easier is to pick differences between the HD800S and the Abyss Phi with the DAVE.

Finally, I’d like to mention the Crossfeed (CF) function. I have tried CF via software in the past (Foobar2000 VST plugins, JRiver MC), but was always disappointed. The loss of transparency, soundstage shrinkage and the slight tonal alteration I was hearing were just not acceptable for me. With the DAVE, I am using (moderately) the CF function with tracks where the recording / mastering technique, typically aimed to a speaker presentation, produces and excessive lateralization of the soundstage via headphones. What I am getting is a more realistic headstage and more focused imaging, without the drawbacks I got from my past attempts.

*Improvement Areas (?)*

So, is the DAVE / Abyss Phi perfect?

Honestly, after the two major upgrades I did to my system over the last three months (Abyss Phi, and now the DAVE), it is hard (or too early) for me to detect obvious deficiencies on my present setup.

This is also because of my limited experience with TOTL equipment, and at this level the limitations of a system become apparent mostly by comparison with better / different configurations, rather than as actual de-facto flaws.

I can say I am still struggling a bit with sibilance, an aspect where the introduction of the DAVE has not helped much, thus indicating that (a) it is in the recordings, (b) it is due to the source, i.e. my PC, or (c) is a characteristic of both HD800S and Abyss Phi.

By recalling my (relatively brief) experience with the LCD-4, where the sibilants were not an issue at all, but the speed and transparency were not to my liking, I would be curious about re-listening again the Audeze with the DAVE: I suspect that for certain tracks (especially vocals) it would be a magical pairing.

Occasionally I am feeling that the bass / sub-bass cleanliness provided by the DAVE has taken away some of the subwoofer-like rumble that I was getting from the Phi with the NOS 11. But in some cases, the bass was a bit overwhelming and out of control with the NOS 11, so the trade-off is more than acceptable.

*Next Steps*

In the short term, I consider my present source (a Surface 3 Pro laptop with several software tweaks, running on batteries) the most promising area of my system for further improvements. I will be auditioning some good music servers in the next weeks, so I think I’ll have a better idea soon.

Next, even if I haven’t found the DAVE under-driving the Phi, I plan to audition some powerful amps (starting from my NOS 11, ranging to speaker amps) to challenge my current feeling, or to try whether a high-end amp can provide some coloration I may like or other sonic benefits.

I want to close this post with a sincere THANK YOU to the head-fi community. You guys have been extremely helpful in my quest for a headphone-based system that lets me enjoy my music like I thought it was possible only with a high-end loudspeaker-based set-up!


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## draytonklammer (Feb 6, 2018)

Reading stuff like that makes me very excited to see my DAVE arrive.

EDIT: or shall I say, hear it arrive.


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## xxx1313 (Feb 6, 2018)

simorag said:


> I can say I am still struggling a bit with sibilance, an aspect where the introduction of the DAVE has not helped much, thus indicating that (a) it is in the recordings, (b) it is due to the source, i.e. my PC, or (c) is a characteristic of both HD800S and Abyss Phi.
> 
> By recalling my (relatively brief) experience with the LCD-4, where the sibilants were not an issue at all, but the speed and transparency were not to my liking, I would be curious about re-listening again the Audeze with the DAVE: I suspect that for certain tracks (especially vocals) it would be a magical pairing.



Congratulations on your setup! 

HD800(S) and Abyss (Phi) tend to be sibilant, imho. If you can live with a smaller soundstage, you might also try the Utopia. Regarding your source, try to eliminate HF noise. AQ Jitterbug and Würth ferrites (2,5 GHz) do really help in this regard and are much cheaper than buying a new source/transport.


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## Jawed

It's so easy to take DAVE for granted, it's a pleasure reading a description of why this thing is so awesome.


simorag said:


> Well, since the very first seconds of listening, I was both relieved and disconcerted. The relief was due to the ease of drive that the DAVE exhibited with the Phi, while I was put out of balance from how different the sound presentation was, compared to what I had experienced before.


Phi is, perhaps, the headphone I most want to try these days ... so it's encouraging that it works so well.



> Also, some sub-optimal detail resolution of which I was blaming the Phi is not there anymore: the noise floor reduction and the ability of the DAVE to capture low level signals is fully delivered to my ears by the Phi (and by the HD800S as well, but with less delicacy and additional background noise).


I'm puzzled by "additional background noise".

DAVE's sound is extraordinarily pure. DACs usually make their own kind of "noise" that goes along with the music, e.g. sometimes this is graininess in a singer's voice. But you should also be hearing more clearly the noise that's in the recording as well as the "atmosphere" of the space where the music was recorded.



> I can say I am still struggling a bit with sibilance, an aspect where the introduction of the DAVE has not helped much, thus indicating that (a) it is in the recordings, (b) it is due to the source, i.e. my PC, or (c) is a characteristic of both HD800S and Abyss Phi.


Sibilance should be a problem in 1 out of 1000 pieces of music and then it'll be the recording.

I recommend you try ferrites if you are using USB:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/does-chord-dave-system-need-a-dcc.809287/#post-13799263

as problematic sibilance is caused by RF noise, which ferrites are very good at solving. DAVE's galvanic isolation isn't strong enough, sadly. You'll probably also notice the bass becomes more powerful sounding and lots of other good things.

If you can try an optical cable from your computer to DAVE, then I strongly recommend you try this cable instead of USB. DAVE comes with an optical cable and you should make sure to disconnect the USB cable from DAVE when you try optical, otherwise the optical cable won't be able to give you the full galvanic isolation.

Now playing: Culture - Jah Pretty Face


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## simorag (Feb 7, 2018)

xxx1313 said:


> HD800(S) and Abyss (Phi) tend to be sibilant, imho. If you can live with a smaller soundstage, you might also try the Utopia.



I had a (brief) listening session with the Utopia and I liked them very much. As you noted, the show-stopper for me was the soundstage size. I listen to a lot of classical orchestral music and the HD800S (and even more so the Abyss Phi I purchased later on) do a better job, IMHO, at building an expansive and immersive presentation of that type of music.



xxx1313 said:


> AQ Jitterbug and Würth ferrites (2,5 GHz) do really help in this regard and are much cheaper than buying a new source/transport.






Jawed said:


> I recommend you try ferrites if you are using USB:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/does-chord-dave-system-need-a-dcc.809287/#post-13799263



As for HF / RF noise, I am using my laptop on battery, and with the Uptone ISORegen (with the galvanic isolation switch set to on) in between the PC and the USB cable.​
I also tried 20x Topsinius ferrite cores with my previous USB cable (Forza Audio Works) and NOS 11, and did not notice a significant effect on sibilants.
I will try again the ferrites with my new USB cable (Phasure Lush), which by itself did a good job in smoothing out sibilance, and report back if I hear some clear benefits this time!

I have come to believe that I am overly sensitive to sibilants, and what is annoying for me may be totally OK for someone else.
For reference, when I listen to Spanish Harlem by Rebecca Pidgeon (which overall is extremely enjoyable and which the DAVE has made even more real than before ) I tend to cringe with some of the S'es .. "There iS a roSe in SpaniSh Harlem ....".



Jawed said:


> 'm puzzled by "additional background noise".
> 
> DAVE's sound is extraordinarily pure. DACs usually make their own kind of "noise" that goes along with the music, e.g. sometimes this is graininess in a singer's voice. But you should also be hearing more clearly the noise that's in the recording as well as the "atmosphere" of the space where the music was recorded.



What I wanted to say is that the DAVE has noticeably increased the overall blackness of the background (and this perhaps plays a role at why we find it so transparent), thus making very small details and contrast in the music much more apparent with respect to my previous DAC. I find this feature even more striking via the Abyss Phi compared to the HD800S, which has also benefited by the DAVE a lot in terms of transparency and purity, but with some tracks it shows a spurious background noise (like the old hiss on cassette tapes) which is not audible to me via Phi.

I have noticed this when I compared the HD800S and the LCD-4 as well, and I thought at the time that the HD800S were showing this noise just because of better resolution and transparency, and the LCD-4, which I actually found veiled and overly thick with some recordings, were filtering out these "signals" due to some inferior technicality with this specific sonic performance.

Now, I am puzzled as well, because the Abyss Phi are by no means less resolving, detailed and transparent than the HD800S to my ears, and able to faithfully render the "atmosphere" with those recordings where ambience is well captured, but still they seem to "mask" these actually undesired noise effectively without making me loosing anything in the music.

This happens with very few recordings, and I need to go back and find a specific track or two to share with you so to be more specific.



Jawed said:


> If you can try an optical cable from your computer to DAVE, then I strongly recommend you try this cable instead of USB. DAVE comes with an optical cable and you should make sure to disconnect the USB cable from DAVE when you try optical, otherwise the optical cable won't be able to give you the full galvanic isolation.



Unfortunately my laptop does not seem to have an optical output. Furthermore, my DSD music collection is quickly growing, and I cannot play those dsf files via optical


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## Triode User

simorag said:


> Furthermore, my DSD music collection is quickly growing,



Have a search for Maestro Rob Watts view on DSD . . . . . .


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## simorag

Haha, yes I have read numerous Rob Watts posts on this matter, and I realize he is firmly on the PCM camp.

However, that same person must have designed the DSD+ mode for the DAVE for a reason , and I find some of the dsf files of my collection are extremely enjoyable (even if a bit on the soft side, which on the other hand is a good balsam for my sibilant sensitivity).

By downloading all the available tracks from here:
http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html

I compared PCM (DAVE in PCM+) and DSD (DAVE in DSD+) versions and in the majority of cases (but not all) I liked the DSD128 or DSD256 more.


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## Clive101 (Feb 7, 2018)

simorag said:


> I can say I am still struggling a bit with sibilance, an aspect where the introduction of the DAVE has not helped much, thus indicating that (a) it is in the recordings, (b) it is due to the source, i.e. my PC, or (c) is a characteristic of both HD800S and Abyss Phi.





simorag said:


> I have come to believe that I am overly sensitive to sibilants, and what is annoying for me may be totally OK for someone else.



Sibilance well I had the same problem, I have a speaker and headphone system, firstly I changed from a PC to a mid level HiFi server and then a cleaner power supply all helped with noise but I was still having what you described, cables helped further, finally I put it down to some recordings...?

I still think Dave can be a little bright (sometimes) but I put that down to the way I my ears work ..! Moving forwards, when the M-Scaler (finally gets released) I hope it will soften Dave, looking at the posts it seems to be a big improvement over Dave.

I may try the DaveBlu2 prior to release or dare I say it jump ship to the PS Direct Steam which looking at the feed back seems to compare (close 2nd, equal or preferred by some people on this forum) with DaveBlu2, so my thinking is Dave vs PS DS may possibly be even closer..? I have yet to try..?



simorag said:


> I have noticed this when I compared the HD800S and the LCD-4 as well, and I thought at the time that the HD800S were showing this noise just because of better resolution and transparency, and the LCD-4, which I actually found veiled and overly thick with some recordings, were filtering out these "signals" due to some inferior technicality with this specific sonic performance.



HD800s and the LCD-4, I found the LCD4 (with my ears) perfect with Dave, yes they are dark but seem to tone down Dave.

The LCD-4 ( 200 ohm ) needed weeks of burn in almost sent mine back but now would not sell them even at full retail. Initially, I had no detail ( magic ) in the low volumes and had to listen at higher volume to get them to work.

I found the HD800s too bright for me, but we all differ no right or wrong answer.

I wonder if the LCD-4 you had were fully burnt in..?


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## simorag

Yes, the LCD-4 I had on loan for a week were, according to the dealer, fully broken in (a demo unit they had since a year or so).
But as you said, the pairing with the DAVE could change a lot my overall impressions of the LCD-4, and this is why I am indeed curious about re-listening to them. Vocals should be wonderfully seductive!

However, when I tried the LCD-4, I found my toes tapping a lot less than with my HD800S. Some drums solo, or fast paced jazz or big-band pieces sounded almost boring in comparison.

With DAVE and Abyss Phi this is not the case at all. Drums for example have a visceral impact that is almost shocking at times. The speed of the DAVE and the slam of the Phi are spectacular with this kind of tracks!

Actually, I am still trying to resist to the idea of having to use multiple headphones depending on music, mood etc..

With the HD800S (which I will put on sale soon) I was fidgeting with EQ for adjusting their sound signature to my liking based on the type of music and / or the recording quality, and still was annoyed by the treble at times, and lacking sub-bass (20-40Hz) oomph.

The Phi have fixed most issues, going very close to reaching a mix of the best qualities of HD800S, LCD4 and Utopia IMHO, with no need for EQ or other tweaks. I can listen at full enjoyment to basically everything, from baroque to heavy metal, with no sense of something lacking, and much more so as the DAVE entered the rig.

Yet, there is this nasty residual sibilance, and before I give up to blaming the Phi or HD800S, I will rather prefer to try some other routes ... starting at the "source" of the problem


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## Triode User

Clive101 said:


> I may try the DaveBlu2 prior to release or dare I say it jump ship to the PS Direct Steam which looking at the feed back seems to compare (close 2nd, equal or preferred by some people on this forum) with DaveBlu2, so my thinking is Dave vs PS DS may possibly be even closer..? I have yet to try..?



I have compared Blu2Dave to PS DirectStream with the latest Redcloud firmware and with both of them in the same system (ie a like for like comparison).

Blu2Dave was miles ahead to my ears. The DirectStream dac was not capable of resolving complex orchestral tracks during crescendos such as in Holst Planets Mars and sounded closed in compared to Blu2Dave. So in my books it was not even a close 2nd never mind equal.


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## Clive101

simorag said:


> Yes, the LCD-4 I had on loan for a week were, according to the dealer, fully broken in (a demo unit they had since a year or so).
> But as you said, the pairing with the DAVE could change a lot my overall impressions of the LCD-4, and this is why I am indeed curious about re-listening to them. Vocals should be wonderfully seductive!



I must admit I love vocals.
Or maybe I should try the Phi as you have the advantage over me...?



Triode User said:


> I have compared Blu2Dave to PS DirectStream with the latest Redcloud firmware and with both of them in the same system (ie a like for like comparison).
> 
> Blu2Dave was miles ahead to my ears. The DirectStream dac was not capable of resolving complex orchestral tracks during crescendos such as in Holst Planets Mars and sounded closed in compared to Blu2Dave. So in my books it was not even a close 2nd never mind equal.



Thank you for the input, I always wondered as Blu2Dave (16.5k plus two bnc cables) vs PS DS (5.5k) does cost three times as much, there must be some added value, did you manage to compare Dave vs PS DS...?


----------



## flyte3333

I've been so happy with my Hugo2 I've decided to proceed with the Dave purchase (and yes I have demo'ed Dave), pending a couple of things lining up this month. 

If not this month, it's still only a question of when, not if - definitely by the end of this year. 

It was nice to read that Dave will remain Rob's flagship DAC for a couple years (at least).


----------



## Triode User

Clive101 said:


> Thank you for the input, I always wondered as Blu2Dave (16.5k plus two bnc cables) vs PS DS (5.5k) does cost three times as much, there must be some added value, did you manage to compare Dave vs PS DS...?



Yes. The same basic criticism was there for me against the DirectStream compared to Dave in that Dave resolved the complex orchestral passages where the DirectStream seemed to amalgamate into a single 'wall of sound'. My personal view as ever of course and others may hear different.


----------



## Clive101

Triode User said:


> Yes. The same basic criticism was there for me against the DirectStream compared to Dave in that Dave resolved the complex orchestral passages where the DirectStream seemed to amalgamate into a single 'wall of sound'. My personal view as ever of course and others may hear different.


Thank you, your view is appreciated and of value.


----------



## jscmd2000

I have come to believe that I am overly sensitive to sibilants, and what is annoying for me may be totally OK for someone else.
For reference, when I listen to Spanish Harlem by Rebecca Pidgeon (which overall is extremely enjoyable and which the DAVE has made even more real than before ) I tend to cringe with some of the S'es .. "There iS a roSe in SpaniSh Harlem ....".


Sibilance was an issue with my Phi as well, with the Dave and also with my Yggy/Rag.  It is noticeably better now at >150 hrs, so have faith and keep listening.  I still hear it but instead of being bothersome, sounds more like it is there to sharpen the edges for better imaging.

I also found the mids to be mildly recessed initially, thought it was purposeful to create more expansive stage.  This is also better but still there.


----------



## Jawed

simorag said:


> I had a (brief) listening session with the Utopia and I liked them very much. As you noted, the show-stopper for me was the soundstage size. I listen to a lot of classical orchestral music and the HD800S (and even more so the Abyss Phi I purchased later on) do a better job, IMHO, at building an expansive and immersive presentation of that type of music.


I've not even listened to Utopia, but the strong consensus on the presentation puts me off - I love the immersion in the atmosphere of recordings that DAVE + HD 800 S brings. When I upgraded from Hugo TT, DAVE made the soundstage size larger. Utopia would make the soundstage smaller again, undoing the improvement brought by DAVE, so that is a very unappealing prospect.



> As for HF / RF noise, I am using my laptop on battery, and with the Uptone ISORegen (with the galvanic isolation switch set to on) in between the PC and the USB cable.


I suspect the ISO Regen only works properly if "battery powered" by the LPS-1 (or 1.2 as it is now).​


> I also tried 20x Topsinius ferrite cores with my previous USB cable (Forza Audio Works) and NOS 11, and did not notice a significant effect on sibilants.
> I will try again the ferrites with my new USB cable (Phasure Lush), which by itself did a good job in smoothing out sibilance, and report back if I hear some clear benefits this time!


It's very interesting that the Lush makes a difference, as that would imply that RF noise is a problem. Very interested in your continued experiments.



> I have come to believe that I am overly sensitive to sibilants, and what is annoying for me may be totally OK for someone else.
> For reference, when I listen to Spanish Harlem by Rebecca Pidgeon (which overall is extremely enjoyable and which the DAVE has made even more real than before ) I tend to cringe with some of the S'es .. "There iS a roSe in SpaniSh Harlem ....".


Here that recording comes across as very sibilant but it doesn't make me cringe. 

RF noise seems to "smear" the sibiliants and exaggerate them at the same time. DAVE, in general, improves sibilants because it is very fast with transients and when the RF is reduced the speed increases again and this cuts out the smearing and exaggeration on sibilance.



> What I wanted to say is that the DAVE has noticeably increased the overall blackness of the background (and this perhaps plays a role at why we find it so transparent), thus making very small details and contrast in the music much more apparent with respect to my previous DAC. I find this feature even more striking via the Abyss Phi compared to the HD800S, which has also benefited by the DAVE a lot in terms of transparency and purity, but with some tracks it shows a spurious background noise (like the old hiss on cassette tapes) which is not audible to me via Phi.


I doubt that any sounds in the recording can ever be called spurious. But we don't want them to be unnecessarily exaggerated, and that can be part of the mystery of system setup.



> I have noticed this when I compared the HD800S and the LCD-4 as well, and I thought at the time that the HD800S were showing this noise just because of better resolution and transparency, and the LCD-4, which I actually found veiled and overly thick with some recordings, were filtering out these "signals" due to some inferior technicality with this specific sonic performance.
> 
> Now, I am puzzled as well, because the Abyss Phi are by no means less resolving, detailed and transparent than the HD800S to my ears, and able to faithfully render the "atmosphere" with those recordings where ambience is well captured, but still they seem to "mask" these actually undesired noise effectively without making me loosing anything in the music.
> 
> This happens with very few recordings, and I need to go back and find a specific track or two to share with you so to be more specific.


The Stax guys have a good word for this concept, "plankton". In Spanish Harlem at around 1m30s you can hear the rest of the band getting ready to start playing, that's "good" plankton 

Now playing: Kelly Lee Owens - Lucid


----------



## simorag

jscmd2000 said:


> Sibilance was an issue with my Phi as well, with the Dave and also with my Yggy/Rag. It is noticeably better now at >150 hrs, so have faith and keep listening. I still hear it but instead of being bothersome, sounds more like it is there to sharpen the edges for better imaging.


I agree with you, also in my case the sibilance is now much less annoying that in the first 20hrs. I think I should be around 120hrs at this point, if in the next weeks I'll hear some further improvement I'll report back.



jscmd2000 said:


> I also found the mids to be mildly recessed initially, thought it was purposeful to create more expansive stage. This is also better but still there.


Compared with the NOS 11, the DAVE has improved the presence of the vocals. Also, the break in of the Abyss have improved this. At this point, Phi + DAVE and HD800S + DAVE are both nicely presenting a focused and well placed picture of (for example) a singer in a group, or a solo violin in front of a piano. The HD800S are, to my ears, slightly more in-your-face than the Phi, and depending on the recording this is something I like or not.



Jawed said:


> I suspect the ISO Regen only works properly if "battery powered" by the LPS-1 (or 1.2 as it is now).


You are right, in fact I use the ISO Regen powered by the LPS-1 power supply.


----------



## statfi

Jawed said:


> The Stax guys have a good word for this concept, "plankton".


(I'm a Stax user.)  I had not heard of "plankton" before.  Do you have one or two links to its usage/description?


----------



## Jawed

Plankton is the micro-detail stuff in the recording that's not merely reverb and usually not musical - just sounds from the performance and objects in the space.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-stax-thread-iii.677809/page-724#post-13127806
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/off...mpressions-thread.767883/page-8#post-11633299

Plenty more results with a search...

Now playing: Imrat Khan - Rag Darbari


----------



## xxx1313

simorag said:


> As for HF / RF noise, I am using my laptop on battery, and with the Uptone ISORegen (with the galvanic isolation switch set to on) in between the PC and the USB cable.
> I also tried 20x Topsinius ferrite cores with my previous USB cable (Forza Audio Works) and NOS 11, and did not notice a significant effect on sibilants.
> I will try again the ferrites with my new USB cable (Phasure Lush), which by itself did a good job in smoothing out sibilance, and report back if I hear some clear benefits this time!



Try your ferrites also on the cable between Iso Regen and its power supply. This was the main entry point for HF/RF noise in my case. Even the cheap ferrites made a significant difference there.


----------



## draytonklammer

Why did I wait a year to pull the trigger on a DAVE?


----------



## flyte3333

simorag said:


> As for HF / RF noise, I am using my laptop on battery, and with the Uptone ISORegen (with the galvanic isolation switch set to on) in between the PC and the USB cable.



Are you using the Mean Well to power the LPS-1? If so, have you grounded the Mean Well's DC plug?

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/37034-smps-and-grounding/?page=1


----------



## simorag

xxx1313 said:


> Try your ferrites also on the cable between Iso Regen and its power supply. This was the main entry point for HF/RF noise in my case. Even the cheap ferrites made a significant difference there.


Interesting, thank you for the suggestion!



Em2016 said:


> Are you using the Mean Well to power the LPS-1? If so, have you grounded the Mean Well's DC plug?
> https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/37034-smps-and-grounding/?page=1


The LPS-1 is plugged in a power distributor: 
http://www.systemsandmagic.com/index_file/eight.htm
thank you for the link, I'll study it and check whether it is applicable to my situation!


----------



## flyte3333

simorag said:


> The LPS-1 is plugged in a power distributor:
> http://www.systemsandmagic.com/index_file/eight.htm
> thank you for the link, I'll study it and check whether it is applicable to my situation!



No problem! But is it the 7.5Vdc Mean Well SMPS (that comes with the LPS-1) that is "energizing" your LPS-1? Or are you using a linear PSU to power/energize your LPS-1?

If it's the former, you will want to follow that thread for best performance with your LPS-1 (Uptone's recommendation, not mine).

If you are using a linear PSU to power your LPS-1, no need to do anything.


----------



## simorag

Oh I see now what you mean! Yes, I am using the SMPS that comes with the LPS-1. For sure will check the thread, then. Thank you for the heads up!


----------



## draytonklammer

Rob Watts, all I can say is thank you for this beautiful DAC.
I have spent tonight experiencing a lot of library for what feels like the first time.

This thing also has more than enough juice for my Abyss Phi, so looks like I will likely be selling my Moon Neo + Yggy!

When I started with the HD 800 and Valhalla 2 2-3 years ago I didn't expect to ever get to this point, but here I am.


----------



## x RELIC x

draytonklammer said:


> Rob Watts, all I can say is thank you for this beautiful DAC.
> I have spent tonight experiencing a lot of library for what feels like the first time.
> 
> This thing also has more than enough juice for my Abyss Phi, so looks like I will likely be selling my Moon Neo + Yggy!
> ...



Nice, isn’t it?! Enjoy!


----------



## draytonklammer

I honestly didn't expect this level of performance.
It took me off guard.

It wasn't something I could barely tell was there, or a feeling.

I put my headphones on after plugging everything in and pressed play.
Just like that, it started. Hearing things I haven't before, instruments are more realistic, sounds more open/realistic in general.

Damn.


----------



## etnt

Hate to sound like a broken record, but you'll be thanking Rob again with the blu.

But in the meantime, enjoy the Dave.


----------



## musickid

for Em did you consider adding a blu2 to h2 instead of a dave? reports seem to indicate superior results.

also does anyone have solid experience of oppo's totl pm1 with dave?


----------



## mtoc

Rob, we want the Dave 2 carries 4,096fs or even bigger (just like Blu mk2), imagine a 8,192fs new Dave


----------



## GryphonGuy

draytonklammer said:


> I honestly didn't expect this level of performance.
> It took me off guard.
> 
> It wasn't something I could barely tell was there, or a feeling.
> ...



One of my initial responses was about the realistic timbre of instruments that DAVE brings to the party. I am 18 months into my DAVE journey and it continually provides an awesome musical experience, particularly with the Utopia plugged in. I think your USA expression is end-game equipment? If so DAVE is my end-game. I have no need to experience anything better than the awesomeness I hear now.

Enjoy!
Regards
GG


----------



## flyte3333 (Feb 8, 2018)

musickid said:


> for Em did you consider adding a blu2 to h2 instead of a dave? reports seem to indicate superior results.
> 
> also does anyone have solid experience of oppo's totl pm1 with dave?



I must have missed these posts/user reports.

Hugo2 + Blu2 outperforms Dave without Blu2?

Blu2 and Dave are roughly the same price here in Australia.

If only one of those is allowed my budget, should I add a Blu2 to my Hugo2, or get a Dave without Blu2? What would you do @Rob Watts


----------



## Rob Watts

Em2016 said:


> I must have missed these posts/user reports.
> 
> Hugo2 + Blu2 outperforms Dave without Blu2?
> 
> ...



It depends upon what on balance is the most important to you; Dave is completely unbeatable in terms of transparency, particularly in soundstage depth. And it is not small going from a Hugo2 to a Dave. But a Blu2 Hugo2 wins in musical performance - the range of timbre, rhythm, bass, and raw instrument power - this performance only occurs with an M scaler in the system...


----------



## flyte3333

Rob Watts said:


> It depends upon what on balance is the most important to you; Dave is completely unbeatable in terms of transparency, particularly in soundstage depth. And it is not small going from a Hugo2 to a Dave. But a Blu2 Hugo2 wins in musical performance - the range of timbre, rhythm, bass, and raw instrument power - this performance only occurs with an M scaler in the system...



Cheers Rob !


----------



## flyte3333 (Feb 9, 2018)

Rob Watts said:


> It depends upon what on balance is the most important to you; Dave is completely unbeatable in terms of transparency, particularly in soundstage depth. And it is not small going from a Hugo2 to a Dave. But a Blu2 Hugo2 wins in musical performance - the range of timbre, rhythm, bass, and raw instrument power - this performance only occurs with an M scaler in the system...



The other question I had - you can only get 1 million taps with a USB source feeding Blu2, right?

There's no way to get 1 million taps with a TOSlink source? With either Dave or Hugo2?


----------



## x RELIC x (Feb 9, 2018)

Em2016 said:


> The other question I had - you can only get 1 million taps with a USB source feeding Blu2, right?
> 
> There's no way to get 1 million taps with a TOSlink source? With either Dave or Hugo2?



AFAIK you need a minimum 16/44.1 source which the optical can handle just fine. The Blu mk2’s CD player certainly uses the 1 million TAPs.

Oops! I completely blanked that the Blu mk2 doesn’t have an optical input. No, you can not get 1 million TAPs by just going in to the DAVE or Hugo2 with optical. You can use a coaxial (BNC) source and USB in to Blu mk2.


----------



## flyte3333

x RELIC x said:


> AFAIK you need a minimum 16/44.1 source which the optical can handle just fine. The Blu mk2’s CD player certainly uses the 1 million TAPs.
> 
> Oops! I completely blanked that the Blu mk2 doesn’t have an optical input. No, you can not get 1 million TAPs by just going in to the DAVE or Hugo2 with optical. You can use a coaxial (BNC) source and USB in to Blu mk2.



Cheers, makes sense.

Hmmm for purely headphones listening, I like the idea of the 1 box solution Dave only - compared to the 2 box solution when adding Blu2.

Less desk space, one less SMPS in the chain and the option of using TOSlink for music up to 24b/192k.

I will demo Hugo2 with Blu2 shortly though.


----------



## flyte3333

There are quite a few ISO REGEN and Intona (and other similar USB isolators) users here and on the Hugo2 thread.

For those not already following this below linked thread of John Swenson, I wanted to share it - in particular the last page is of interest (to me).

The high level summary of John's findings is that most digital isolators do well to block what he calls 'low impedance leakage current' but he's found high impedance leakage current sails right through ethernet transformers and the digital isolators many of us use.

If your USB source is SMPS powered, on the last page John recommends grounding the output of this SMPS, to "shunt" the high impedance leakage current to ground - then the digital isolator will do the rest with the low impedance leakage. This even applies to the ISO REGEN and the Intona.

If your USB source is linear PSU powered, John's found that linear PSU's  don't have any high impedance leakage so you're fine with NOT having to do anything - again the digital isolator will do the rest with the low impedance leakage.

If your USB source is completely battery powered, then none of the above applies and you'll have no leakage currents coming via the USB input - as Rob's always said too.

I've tried it with my Intona Industrial and heard a little more bass and smoother sound. I ground the DC plug of the 12Vdc Mean Well that's powering my 7-port USB 3.0 hub, which feeds my Intona and other USB devices at my desk. So the theory is the ground shunts the high impedance leakage from my mains connected Mac and NAS and other USB devices, then the Intona blocks the remaining 'low impedance' leakage current.

Of course if you don't care about any of this, feel free to ignore this post of course. But even if you're not using any USB isolators with your Dave's USB input, I wonder if this would benefit Dave's USB input's internal isolation.

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/37034-smps-and-grounding/?page=1


----------



## musicday

I am thinking of selling my band new high efficient 98 dB Omega speakers that can be powered by Dave or Hugo 2 directly to get myself a Dave.
Decisions, decisions


----------



## statfi

Triode User said:


> To be clear I meant on a like for like basis. ie comparing a cd played on Blu2 with the same redbook file streamed to Blu2.
> 
> It is not always easy to be sure that CDs and high res versions of the same recording have come from the same master. This makes it difficult to compare redbook and hi res files on a like for like basis.



I'll re-ask the question to the whole thread.  The original answer missed my original intent: I had not turned my intent adequately into words.  I am asking a somewhat theoretical question: does the 44/16 standard limit sound quality in a way that can be alleviated by higher sample rate and/or more bits of resolution.  Turning the question around, it could be asked, is high-res snake oil in the sense that, with the proper handling, 44/16 is as "good" as it gets.  For "good" I like the listening criteria that Rob has been using, as published here.  

Dave/Blu2 (which I do not have) is SOTA for digital playback: it is better than many competing alternatives.  Another serious attempt to address some of the shortcomings of digital reproduction has been the release of high-res digital files.  Listening through the "microscope" of Dave/Blu2, is there an advantage to using hi-res digital.  I totally accept Triode Users observation the it is "difficult to compare rebook and hi res files on a like for like basis".  However, is it not *possible* to do at least for isolated cases.  Are there any cases where it is known that 44/16 and high-res versions are from the same master?  If so, is high-res fundamentally better, or not?

A somewhat narrowed question is, are there 44/16 files and hi-res files from the same master that are simply indistinguishable through Dave/Blu2?

Yet another angle would be to ask, do Dave/Blu2 owners seek the highest res files available for any particular recording, or, is more than 44/16 a waste of money?


----------



## SuperBurrito

draytonklammer said:


> This thing also has more than enough juice for my Abyss Phi, so looks like I will likely be selling my Moon Neo + Yggy!



Good idea.  I sold my Yggy and Moon 430HA and haven't looked back.  Big thanks to Chord for including a top-notch headphone amp in the DAC.  Anytime we can simplify our system is a big win.


----------



## x RELIC x

SuperBurrito said:


> Good idea.  I sold my Yggy and Moon 430HA and haven't looked back.  Big thanks to Chord for including a top-notch headphone amp in the DAC.  Anytime we can simplify our system is a big win.



Yes, but from reading the ‘inside information’ from Rob’s posts, the output stage is very much tied to the DAC making it much more than just an added amp like in most conventional setups. This is precisely why I love the designs from Rob.


----------



## rgs9200m

SuperBurrito, did you try the DAVE + the 430 before you sold the amp?


----------



## draytonklammer

rgs9200m said:


> SuperBurrito, did you try the DAVE + the 430 before you sold the amp?



Although I am not him, I thought the Dave by itself performs better for my taste.


----------



## draytonklammer

Question to DAVE owners.

Would either or both of these help me?

iFi iUSB Power - extremely low noise USB power supply that replaces the noisy power coming from most USB sources.
iFi iPurifier 2 - data re-clocking and conditioning from source to DAC. USB 3.0 Female B in, USB 2.0 Male B out. Please note that USB 3.0 B socket is backwards compatible with USB 2.0 B so you don't need a USB 3.0 cable.
I have heard I might not need anything because the DAVE does such an incredible job with USB, but figured it couldn't hurt much to ask.


----------



## GryphonGuy

draytonklammer said:


> Question to DAVE owners.
> 
> Would either or both of these help me?
> 
> ...



I went to the iFi stand at a canjam, told them I had a DAVE and asked them which of their products could help me achieve a better level of performance in my chain. The diplomatic answer was quite long as to the capabilities of the DAVE vs iFi products but my take-away from the diplomacy was that iFi products could not help me where a DAVE was involved.

Regards
GG


----------



## draytonklammer

GryphonGuy said:


> I went to the iFi stand at a canjam, told them I had a DAVE and asked them which of their products could help me achieve a better level of performance in my chain. The diplomatic answer was quite long as to the capabilities of the DAVE vs iFi products but my take-away from the diplomacy was that iFi products could not help me where a DAVE was involved.
> 
> Regards
> GG



This is what I figured, just thought I might as well make sure I am doing a lot of good for it.

I have never heard a blacker background than with the DAVE.

I can't stop gushing about it. Sure, it is a new device, but I have owned A LOT of new devices, and this is one of very few I have gushed over to this extent.


----------



## Jawed

draytonklammer said:


> I have heard I might not need anything because the DAVE does such an incredible job with USB, but figured it couldn't hurt much to ask.


If you can try an optical cable from your digital source into DAVE, then try that. Make sure to disconnect the USB cable while you listen to optical. 

If you hear an improvement, then you should consider putting lots (20+) of ferrites on your USB cable. 

The aim is that the USB cable sounds the same as the optical, as the optical input on DAVE is the reference for sound quality.


----------



## draytonklammer

Jawed said:


> If you can try an optical cable from your digital source into DAVE, then try that. Make sure to disconnect the USB cable while you listen to optical.
> 
> If you hear an improvement, then you should consider putting lots (20+) of ferrites on your USB cable.
> 
> The aim is that the USB cable sounds the same as the optical, as the optical input on DAVE is the reference for sound quality.



Wait, hold on.

So if my PC has toslink out you're saying I should use that with Dave instead of USB?


----------



## Jawed

draytonklammer said:


> Wait, hold on.
> 
> So if my PC has toslink out you're saying I should use that with Dave instead of USB?


I suggest you try it. 

The sound quality of the optical input on DAVE is the best because of the perfect galvanic isolation (as long as the optical connection is the only digital input connected to DAVE). So any problem that exists with your USB source or cable will be revealed by comparison with the optical connection. You may not hear a problem with the USB connection though.

If you prefer the sound of optical then you can continue to use it, but bear in mind it won't support all the digital formats that USB supports. So music at sample rates above 192KHz is an example of music that doesn't work through optical. In my system the optical connection also won't support 88.2KHz. But that's a problem caused by the computer, not by DAVE or the cable.

If you want to maximise the performance of USB you should try ferrites. The result should equal optical.

Now playing: Piano Magic - The Canadian Brought Us Snow


----------



## draytonklammer

Jawed said:


> I suggest you try it.
> 
> The sound quality of the optical input on DAVE is the best because of the perfect galvanic isolation (as long as the optical connection is the only digital input connected to DAVE). So any problem that exists with your USB source or cable will be revealed by comparison with the optical connection. You may not hear a problem with the USB connection though.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I will go ahead and give toslink a go now.


----------



## rgs9200m

Thanks for the impression Draytonklammer. 'appreciate it.


----------



## draytonklammer

rgs9200m said:


> Thanks for the impression Draytonklammer. 'appreciate it.



If I can give you anymore detailed thoughts on anything, let me know!
I am considering a full review of the Chord DAVE driving the Abyss Phi (along with my Phi review finally)

It's the BEST I have heard in a headphone to date. It bests many loudspeaker setups I have heard as well (to my ears -- I love microdetails)
YES, I have tried the Orpheus, Stax 009 (not the 007 mk1 sadly), Susvara, LCD-4, HD800S, etc. -- no flagship has crossed the line like the Abyss Phi for me.

Now with the Chord, it's even better.


----------



## jlbrach

I use the Ifi usb 3.0 with my dave when i use it plugged in and find it a very solid choice


----------



## draytonklammer

Just trying to see what sorts of things I could change/add to my system to benefit more.

That being said, this is my end game in terms of equipment until a DAVE 2 drops.

Wish I would have bought this a year ago when I started considering it.


----------



## Natronious

draytonklammer, this is very strong praise for the Abyss Phi. I have read some pretty strong praise for the HE-1000 v2 out of DAVE, to the point that I was thinking to pick up a pair at some point. When you mention the Susvara, I'm guessing that those clearly better the HE-1000's, but I haven't really looked into them (I wonder if you've heard the HE1000 v2, and how you'd rank them). To some extent, it may be hard to definitively rank those you mentioned if you haven't heard them out of DAVE (as they may all sound better, more or less), but you've got my attention. I haven't really seen the Abyss headphones discussed in the Chord threads that much, but a quick look at the Phi's and they seem pretty great.


----------



## draytonklammer

nbarnard36 said:


> draytonklammer, this is very strong praise for the Abyss Phi. I have read some pretty strong praise for the HE-1000 v2 out of DAVE, to the point that I was thinking to pick up a pair at some point. When you mention the Susvara, I'm guessing that those clearly better the HE-1000's, but I haven't really looked into them (I wonder if you've heard the HE1000 v2, and how you'd rank them). To some extent, it may be hard to definitively rank those you mentioned if you haven't heard them out of DAVE (as they may all sound better, more or less), but you've got my attention. I haven't really seen the Abyss headphones discussed in the Chord threads that much, but a quick look at the Phi's and they seem pretty great.



For me, the Susvara was like a better version of the HE-1000. Still hate the build quality though. LOVE the comfort/weight. That being said, the Phi is comfortable once you get a good fit/proper fitting headband in my case.

My list currently: Abyss Phi > Susvara > Utopia/LCD-4 (they both have their strengths that I admire a lot) > SR-009 > HEK v2 > HEK v1 > LCD-X > LCD-3 > HD 800S > HD 800 > Sonoma Model One > Ether > LCD-XC > Ether C > Aeon > LCD-2 > Beyer T1 > HD 600 > Beyer T90 > HD 650/6XX > Audeze SINE > Beyer DT 990


----------



## Deftone

I have a question for those using ferrites with their DACs, what frequency cores would I need for usb cable going to Dave or Hugo 2 (no blu2 involved) 2.5ghz or 1ghz? 

Product links would be even better. Thanks


----------



## x RELIC x

@draytonklammer, if wanting to improve the input from USB you can try ferrite cores or one of your mentioned iFi products, or others. However, Rob’s detailed posts have been quite clear that Jitter won’t really be improved so look more for what may cleanup the noise from USB as a priority, again, if looking in that direction. Ferrites have been shown to be effective and inexpensive for many but YMMV.


----------



## simorag

One thing that strikes me about the DAVE (especially in comparison with my previous, much less expensive, NOS11) is how coherent and three-dimensional the soundstage is.

Both HD800S and Abyss Phi were already capable to display a very wide, out-of-the-head soundstage in my previous setup. 

In some (several) cases, though, the soundstage had the typical headphone three-lobed presentation, where you could hear three distinct areas of sound, i.e. from (the left of) the left ear, from the (right of the) right ear, and center. The three sound volumes were quite separated, in that there were odd empty areas of the sonic front in between each, and the central "lobe" was typically on top or your head, or even behind your head sometimes.

With the DAVE, especially with some crossfeed (1 is already OK for me in most cases), the soundstage becomes much more cohesive, while remaining as wide (even wider sometimes), thus providing a much more realistic and equally immersive experience. Also, the central part of the stage, say a singer or a solo instrument, appears to be more "in front" of you and less "on top" of your head.

All this combined with an increase focus and instrument localization / separation, wow!

Even more impressive is the depth that is added to the cohesive left to right scene. You can easily detect the configuration of the soundstage with respect to the absolute distance and relative front-to-back position. This is something new for me, in my (admittedly limited) experience with TOTL headphones.

This morning I was listening to a choral track (regular 44.1/16 CD-quality ripped wav, by the way), and it was like the perfect display of this holographic character of the DAVE.

I could "see" without effort the various rows of the chorus, and also their height was obvious, and so it was obvious where the soloists and the orchestra were placed in three dimensions, and how all these musicians were interacting with the venue where the music was played.

The imaging was in 2-channel speaker setup territory, although of course not quite as realistic.

Must add that, all the above was transcendentally satisfying with the Abyss Phi and less true to my ears with the HD800S, as good as they are.


----------



## draytonklammer

Anyone have any experience with DAVE, their computer as a source and a power conditioner?

Would it be worth buying one?

If so, which? (Without killing the bank too much)


----------



## Triode User

draytonklammer said:


> Anyone have any experience with DAVE, their computer as a source and a power conditioner?
> 
> Would it be worth buying one?
> 
> If so, which? (Without killing the bank too much)



I have used a power conditioner (PS Audio P10) on my system with my valves so that I can control the voltage. I have not noticed any difference to Dave whether it was plugged into the conditioner or the socket on the wall.


----------



## musicday

draytonklammer said:


> If I can give you anymore detailed thoughts on anything, let me know!
> I am considering a full review of the Chord DAVE driving the Abyss Phi (along with my Phi review finally)
> 
> It's the BEST I have heard in a headphone to date. It bests many loudspeaker setups I have heard as well (to my ears -- I love microdetails)
> ...


A review of Dave and Abyss Phi will be much appreciated by the community.
A YouTube video will be even better


----------



## flyte3333

I went to spend an hour in store with a Dave today - my first time listening in a quiet room in store, with no pressure to hurry up.

They even had the same HD800-S cans that I have (and love) and I got to stream most of my own fav music, the same way I listen.

Of course I expected an improvement on my Hugo2 but I wasn't prepared for this much of a difference.... wow.

I got to listen with Blu2 added too... holy moly....

But I need to start with Dave first.


----------



## draytonklammer

musicday said:


> A review of Dave and Abyss Phi will be much appreciated by the community.
> A YouTube video will be even better



Currently building my website to release the review on it!
Considering a Youtube video, but I am a little bit nervous about that part.


----------



## ZappaMan

draytonklammer said:


> Currently building my website to release the review on it!
> Considering a Youtube video, but I am a little bit nervous about that part.


I suppose - just be yourself. I had to do a promotional video once, and it wasn’t easy to look natural, but with practice, you get there.
Having your script, easy to read, like a teleprompter in front of you on laptop can help.


----------



## draytonklammer

ZappaMan said:


> I suppose - just be yourself. I had to do a promotional video once, and it wasn’t easy to look natural, but with practice, you get there.
> Having your script, easy to read, like a teleprompter in front of you on laptop can help.



Thanks for the thoughts!

I will likely be writing a few text reviews first to get in the swing of things.
Afterwards I will eventually focus on some video reviews of gear I currently have in my possession.


----------



## draytonklammer

So, would anyone even be up for reading 4,000 words?


----------



## musicday

draytonklammer said:


> So, would anyone even be up for reading 4,000 words?


I would certainly.


----------



## jonstatt

x RELIC x said:


> @draytonklammer, if wanting to improve the input from USB you can try ferrite cores or one of your mentioned iFi products, or others. However, Rob’s detailed posts have been quite clear that Jitter won’t really be improved so look more for what may cleanup the noise from USB as a priority, again, if looking in that direction. Ferrites have been shown to be effective and inexpensive for many but YMMV.



I have an Auralic Aries and did a comparison between USB and TOSLINK. With the Aries, unlike my Bluesound Node 2, I have not managed to get 192/24 working with DAVE. 96/24 is fine. The Aries has too much slop with in the optical socket with the cable bundled with Dave, and the expensive TOSLINK cables that I have that work fine with Hugo2, won't go up to 192/24 with DAVE as they won't insert fully into the recessed optical sockets on DAVE. So the max I can get with the Aries is 96/24. A real design issue there @Rob Watts !

Anyway, I was listening for brightness. harshness differences and that wasn't what I heard. Instead what I found with a cheap USB cable direct from Aries to DAVE, is that via USB things sounded muddy compared to TOSLINK. It was very obvious and repeatable. I clearly preferred the TOSLINK connection. I then tried a Vertere USB DD D-FI cable, which is their budget line and the difference reduced. I then put an AQ Jitterbug in-line and then TOSLINK and USB sounded the same, which was the goal I was aiming for. 

The Vertere cable separates and shields the power lines from the data lines and the Jitterbug probably clears whatever else was affecting the analogue circuitry downstream. There are probably cheaper USB cables that would achieve the same thing. 

But my goal to have TOSLINK and USB sound the same is achieved!


----------



## SuperBurrito (Feb 12, 2018)

I tested the toslink cable that came in the box vs. my USB setup and marginally preferred the USB.  My USB setup is nothing too fancy, a Paul Peng Audio USB card in my PC, an Audioquest jitterbug and a Cardas Clear USB cable.

Also, for the last month I've been testing Roon vs. Jriver (which I've used for years), and I'll be sticking with Jriver.  Sound quality is identical.  The DSP and interface of Roon are great but I would lose the ratings of many of thousands of songs that I've rated.  Shame that ratings can't be imported to Roon.


----------



## Clive101 (Feb 12, 2018)

draytonklammer said:


> Anyone have any experience with DAVE, their computer as a source and a power conditioner?
> 
> Would it be worth buying one?
> 
> If so, which? (Without killing the bank too much)



Good Question and one that I may be able to add some information.

I was doing some testing this evening with a SOtM tX-USBUltra with two different power supplies a Paul Hynes and  SOtM sPS-500 and thought of your post.
So ran a few tracks with and without Dave connected to a Torus TOT AVR. Without the SOtM.

There was a difference for me (YMMV), bass more controlled, vocals more natural, this was on a headphone system ( LCD-4 ) direct to Dave with the Torus. I seem to suffer from noise, so for me the difference was worth the purchase of a Torus.

So it may be worth while trying one...?  Let us all know how you get on if you do.


----------



## draytonklammer

4,646 words.


----------



## draytonklammer

My take on the Chord Dave:

https://tascware.com/thesummit/dave

Phi, Utopia, and LCD-4 coming soon, in that order.


----------



## rgs9200m

Great writing job. 'really enjoyed reading that. Thanks.


----------



## AudioThief

draytonklammer said:


> My take on the Chord Dave:
> 
> https://tascware.com/thesummit/dave
> 
> Phi, Utopia, and LCD-4 coming soon, in that order.



Did you post on reddit the other day? Just curious.


----------



## draytonklammer

rgs9200m said:


> Great writing job. 'really enjoyed reading that. Thanks.



Thank you for reading! Hoping to add more pictures soon.



AudioThief said:


> Did you post on reddit the other day? Just curious.



I did!


----------



## AudioThief

draytonklammer said:


> Thank you for reading! Hoping to add more pictures soon.
> 
> 
> 
> I did!



I saw your post! I appreciate the review, I am halfway through right now (taking a break lol). Big, comprehensive pieces like this are invaluable for the community for high end products that doesn't get reviewed a million times like for instance hd650 or schiit magni.


----------



## draytonklammer

AudioThief said:


> I saw your post! I appreciate the review, I am halfway through right now (taking a break lol). Big, comprehensive pieces like this are invaluable for the community for high end products that doesn't get reviewed a million times like for instance hd650 or schiit magni.



I would've written more, but I figured it was comprehensive enough.

I'd be happy to write mote or take aan pictures if anyone would like!

My Phi review will be fairly similar in structure. Hoping to get that done this week. 

LCD-4 and Utopia will come in a couple weeks or less but be a bit less featured as there is more of a following that has already covered them a lot.


----------



## ZappaMan

draytonklammer said:


> My take on the Chord Dave:
> 
> https://tascware.com/thesummit/dave
> 
> Phi, Utopia, and LCD-4 coming soon, in that order.


A very unique review that allowed me to see what your hear and feel how you felt !


----------



## musicday

draytonklammer said:


> My take on the Chord Dave:
> 
> https://tascware.com/thesummit/dave
> 
> Phi, Utopia, and LCD-4 coming soon, in that order.


I liked reading your review very much.
I found it original, like a review should be written.
Well done sir.
Looking forward to your impressions between Abyss Phi Vs Utopia. Thank you for the effort you made while writing the review.


----------



## draytonklammer

Thanks for the thoughts!
I will be adding those headphone versus headphone comparisons to the Abyss Phi full review. The individual reviews for anything outside of my current end game will be shorter but still hopefully relevant.


----------



## jscmd2000

Your avatar has evolved... Nice~


----------



## draytonklammer

jscmd2000 said:


> Your avatar has evolved... Nice~



I decided that it would look a bit more professional than Harambe.


----------



## SuperBurrito

draytonklammer said:


> My take on the Chord Dave:
> 
> https://tascware.com/thesummit/dave
> 
> Phi, Utopia, and LCD-4 coming soon, in that order.



Awesome,  Looking forward to it.  I have the Utopias which are amazing and very comfortable but sometimes I find them lacking the fun factor that something like the LCD-X provided.


----------



## musickid

very nice heartfelt impressions. i need to save more forcefully now


----------



## jelt2359

draytonklammer said:


> If I can give you anymore detailed thoughts on anything, let me know!
> I am considering a full review of the Chord DAVE driving the Abyss Phi (along with my Phi review finally)
> 
> It's the BEST I have heard in a headphone to date. It bests many loudspeaker setups I have heard as well (to my ears -- I love microdetails)
> ...



What amp are you using with the 009? For me the 009 and the 800 do certain things my Phi doesn't.


----------



## ZappaMan

A silly question, is it a waste to audition the Dave with hd-650 headphones?

Would I expect to be underwhelmed. I did have an audition, but I’d been rushing around a lot and perhaps I just wasn’t settled enough to hear it properly.


----------



## ZappaMan

Another silly question, but why do people spend so much on a DAC, why not use analogue tech? Is it because of the expense of collecting records?


----------



## jelt2359

Expense is one thing, another is convenience. Lots of stuff available on streaming and digital downloads these days. I’m also not a fan of physically changin media.

Besides, who says that good analog setups are cheap?


----------



## rayl

ZappaMan said:


> Another silly question, but why do people spend so much on a DAC, why not use analogue tech? Is it because of the expense of collecting records?



At risk of reopening an old flame... there is much music (by my definition) not available in vinyl.

Actually this even applies to classical.  The San Francisco Symphony Mahler cycle is one of my fav romantic period productions. Vinyl was a limited run before my time.... today the cd or hdtracks are still avail..


----------



## tunes

tunes said:


> Also, I couldn’t find the audiophile speaker set-up CD you referenced for sale anywhere. Where did you get it??
> 
> Thanks


Has anyone heard the
STAX SRL 700 wirh DAVE?   Was wondering if the mandatory driver amps needed for electrostatic headphones interferes with the purity of the DAVE’S output?? If you have heard these with DAVE how do they compare with HEKV2 and Utopias??

Thanks


----------



## miketlse

ZappaMan said:


> Another silly question, but why do people spend so much on a DAC, why not use analogue tech? Is it because of the expense of collecting records?


Convenience expense, and no availability of some music are probably the main things in peoples minds.
There is also the fact that every time that a record is played, the record experiences some wear and degredation (even if only small with a very good turntable). This is one driver for the Davina project, to enable very old and rare records to be accurately digitised, and then put in permanent storage.


----------



## Triode User

ZappaMan said:


> Another silly question, but why do people spend so much on a DAC, why not use analogue tech? Is it because of the expense of collecting records?



Maybe because a system with Blu2 and Dave connected to something such as Innuos Zenith SE sounds so darned good (possibly better than many or most analogue systems) and is also convenient.


----------



## rgs9200m (Feb 14, 2018)

Yep, I would look forward to more impressions. Nice detailed insight of how different types of music sound. Ha-ha, I like Abba too. Again, thanks for all the work you did on this. A real fine contribution here.


----------



## Natronious

ZappaMan said:


> Another silly question, but why do people spend so much on a DAC, why not use analogue tech? Is it because of the expense of collecting records?



One obvious answer, is that, fortunately, we don't necessarily have to choose one _over_ another. I enjoy having options, and as others have mentioned, sometimes convenience is the deciding factor. Personally, in our household, we enjoy BOTH, analogue_ and_ digital.


----------



## GryphonGuy

ZappaMan said:


> A silly question, is it a waste to audition the Dave with hd-650 headphones?
> 
> Would I expect to be underwhelmed. I did have an audition, but I’d been rushing around a lot and perhaps I just wasn’t settled enough to hear it properly.



The HD-650 was what I used on my DAVE for 3 or so months before I had a chance to listen to and purchase the Utopia. DAVE made the HD-650's sound the best they'd sounded in their long life but are no match for Utopia and DAVE does deserve high-end headphones. However, if you've spent your life savings on a DAVE and can only afford an HD-650 then they will sound very good on DAVE. But save up to give DAVE what it was designed for and deserves. 

Regards
GG


----------



## draytonklammer

Is anyone ever concerned about the eventual build up of dust and other particles inside of their Dave?

I was looking at the holes on top this morning and thinking that to myself.

I know a majority of high-end equipment have more holes for ventilation, but just a curious thought I had to myself as this is my most expensive equipment piece right now.


----------



## jscmd2000

I was wondering about the same thing, actually... started placing the user manual on top after turning it off so dust cannot get in.
After seeing how much dust can get inside the tube compartment of the WA8 through those tiny holes in just a year, I wouldn't be surprised.
At least you can see and clean the WA8, you can't see what is building up inside the Dave.  It can't be good.


----------



## rayl

draytonklammer said:


> Is anyone ever concerned about the eventual build up of dust and other particles inside of their Dave?
> 
> I was looking at the holes on top this morning and thinking that to myself.
> 
> I know a majority of high-end equipment have more holes for ventilation, but just a curious thought I had to myself as this is my most expensive equipment piece right now.



Hmm.... I never thought much of it as I thought most of the actual heat dissipation was from the heavy case doubling as a heat sink.... I actually thought the holes were decorative -- I don't see any intake holes to promote convection cooling, for example.

Also I've not yet had a piece of electronic gear fail from dust -- this applies even to 7-8 yr old PCs with forced air fans in a data closet of a dusty office space.

But it does bring up a related question -- tech obsolescence / better mouse trap aside, what is a reasonable life expectancy for a DAVE? a Blu2?

I know that with analog components, 10 years is easy in my experience. 15 yrs is not that hard, depending on capacitors and operating temperatures.


----------



## Deftone (Feb 14, 2018)

musickid said:


> very nice heartfelt impressions. i need to save more forcefully now



Going be a big day when you pick it up, have you thought about getting balloons and a welcome home Dave banner?


----------



## Deftone

ZappaMan said:


> Another silly question, but why do people spend so much on a DAC, why not use analogue tech? Is it because of the expense of collecting records?



(Previous post)I wouldn’t say so, not if you love the 650 headphones. I’ve heard chord magic come through even on £40 iems.

I actually prefer the the “sound of digital” coming from a mojo or Hugo 2 than records on a good turntable, but I’m probably younger than most people on here and I didn’t grow up on vinyl.


----------



## minibox

ZappaMan said:


> Another silly question, but why do people spend so much on a DAC, why not use analogue tech? Is it because of the expense of collecting records?


I love my analog rig but what is your experience with digital gear? The good stuff is incredibly enjoyable and convenient. The exposure to  music is almost endless from my listening chair.


----------



## draytonklammer

My Phi review (using the Dave, with MANY Dave references) is now live.

https://tascware.com/thesummit/phi


----------



## minibox

I received and hooked my Dave up yesterday afternoon. I’m coming from a Berkeley alpha dac series 2, so no slouch of a dac either. The most immediate difference was the increase in body, depth and, although it seems to go against the gains in these areas, detail. Bass is weightier but faster and precise. I consider the Berkeley to be a very musical and smooth dac that’s easy to listen to but the Dave bested it in these areas, all the while being more detailed, extended and transparent. Amazing piece of kit. More on it later but I’m very impressed.


----------



## draytonklammer

minibox said:


> I received and hooked my Dave up yesterday afternoon. I’m coming from a Berkeley alpha dac series 2, so no slouch of a dac either. The most immediate difference was the increase in body, depth and, although it seems to go against the gains in these areas, detail. Bass is weightier but faster and precise. I consider the Berkeley to be a very musical and smooth dac that’s easy to listen to but the Dave bested it in these areas, all the while being more detailed, extended and transparent. Amazing piece of kit. More on it later but I’m very impressed.



It's an amazing DAC, enjoy it!


----------



## minibox

draytonklammer said:


> It's an amazing DAC, enjoy it!


I am. Woke up in my listening chair this morning at 5 am.....


----------



## draytonklammer

Questions to everyone...

Anyone use HF filter?

Anyone use crossfeed?


----------



## minibox

draytonklammer said:


> Questions to everyone...
> 
> Anyone use HF filter?
> 
> Anyone use crossfeed?


I haven’t listened yet without the HF filter as my experience using it with my Hugo 2 has been extremely positive. I’m looking forward to experimenting with cross feed on the Dave. I use the highest cx feed setting on my Hugo 2.


----------



## ray-dude

My general rul


draytonklammer said:


> Questions to everyone...
> 
> Anyone use HF filter?
> 
> Anyone use crossfeed?



My general rule is HF filter on unless using a Blu2, and crossfeed on for headphones (level depends on recording) and cross feed off for two channel

Caution: if you turn on CF for headphones, it stays on for two channel. Turn off CF before unplugging headphones.


----------



## jonstatt

Was there a design revision of the casing at some point? Early photos showed the inputs and outputs at the back devoid of any labelling. There were similar comments on the forum about having to refer to the manual to figure out what was what.  The back of mine is engraved with the names of the inputs and outputs. So was just curious if/when that changed?


----------



## jonstatt

draytonklammer said:


> Is anyone ever concerned about the eventual build up of dust and other particles inside of their Dave?
> 
> I was looking at the holes on top this morning and thinking that to myself.
> 
> I know a majority of high-end equipment have more holes for ventilation, but just a curious thought I had to myself as this is my most expensive equipment piece right now.



I mentioned this a few weeks ago as a couple of large dust particles found their way onto the screen. I spoke to Mitch at Chord who confirmed there was no grommet or similar to prevent dust reaching the screen and he said it was okay to undo the screws around the porthole to blow away dust. To avoid this though I now cover Dave after use.


----------



## draytonklammer

jonstatt said:


> I mentioned this a few weeks ago as a couple of large dust particles found their way onto the screen. I spoke to Mitch at Chord who confirmed there was no grommet or similar to prevent dust reaching the screen and he said it was okay to undo the screws around the porthole to blow away dust. To avoid this though I now cover Dave after use.



I'm getting fairly tempted to start covering mine as well.


----------



## tunes

GryphonGuy said:


> The HD-650 was what I used on my DAVE for 3 or so months before I had a chance to listen to and purchase the Utopia. DAVE made the HD-650's sound the best they'd sounded in their long life but are no match for Utopia and DAVE does deserve high-end headphones. However, if you've spent your life savings on a DAVE and can only afford an HD-650 then they will sound very good on DAVE. But save up to give DAVE what it was designed for and deserves.
> 
> Regards
> GG


Has anyone had a chance to compare the STAX SR-L700 vs Abyss Phi Paired with DAVE??


----------



## draytonklammer

tunes said:


> Has anyone had a chance to compare the STAX SR-L700 vs Abyss Phi Paired with DAVE??



Once more, sorry I couldn't help you!

Unfortunately one of the headphones I haven't heard yet.


----------



## GryphonGuy

draytonklammer said:


> Questions to everyone...
> 
> Anyone use HF filter?
> 
> Anyone use crossfeed?



PCM plus  Phase Pos
HF Fil ON Crossfeed 3


----------



## miketlse

tunes said:


> Has anyone had a chance to compare the STAX SR-L700 vs Abyss Phi Paired with DAVE??


I get the impression that Stax is a minority (ie belox 50% popular) solution reported on Chord threads. I suspect this is partly cost/experience based, but some chord owners, eg @Music Alchemist have experience with Stax equipment, so maybe it is best to target your questions in that direction.
There is always the possibility that your question is so cutting edge, that you are the cutting edge explorer.


----------



## Natronious

ray-dude said:


> My general rul
> 
> 
> My general rule is HF filter on unless using a Blu2, and crossfeed on for headphones (level depends on recording) and cross feed off for two channel
> ...



Ray dude, can you provide any source for this information? Is that stated in the manual? I wonder how you figured that out, as the setting disappears when headphones are disconnected...


----------



## rayl

nbarnard36 said:


> Ray dude, can you provide any source for this information? Is that stated in the manual? I wonder how you figured that out, as the setting disappears when headphones are disconnected...



This was stated by another user citing an exchange with Rob at:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-558#post-13457744


----------



## ray-dude

nbarnard36 said:


> Ray dude, can you provide any source for this information? Is that stated in the manual? I wonder how you figured that out, as the setting disappears when headphones are disconnected...



You can easily confirm CF once you know that’s the behavior (it was quite embarrassing when I found out about this behavior....needless to say, two channel with cross feed muddies the waters quite a bit)

The HF filter suggestions were from Rob IIRC (sorry don’t have links handy) but give them a try and see what works best for you (this level of performance shines a wonderfully bright and direct light on what works and what doesn’t work in your system and content for you...you learn a lot by breaking it down!)


----------



## Triode User

nbarnard36 said:


> Ray dude, can you provide any source for this information? Is that stated in the manual? I wonder how you figured that out, as the setting disappears when headphones are disconnected...



It was Rob Watts who confirmed that the Crossfeed is still active even when the headphones are taken out and "Crossfeed" disappears from the display. 

So if you use crossfeed with headphones and then wish to use the Dave with an amplifier and speakers without crossfeed make sure you disable it before disconnecting the headphones.

Of course, it may be that you wish to use an external headphone amp and do want the crossfeed and in that case it makes sense for the crossfeed to continue after the headphones are taken out from the Dave.


----------



## Hifi Boy

I thought that crossfeed was a gimmick, but here I am listening my Hugo2 with max crossfeed on ever since I  bought it. I don't see how I could go back to regular settings anymore.

Actually, I  was never bothered by the in-your-head sound presentation that headphones give you. It actually helps with feeling the immediacy of the music you're listening to and makes you feel like you're actually inside the music itself rather than music being projected towards you. More immersive in my opinion.

But once I tried the crossfeed setting, I  found it to be more life-like in so far as I could point to the performers infront of me. So now I have best of both worlds, the feeling of being inside the music that headphones give you plus the realistic presentation that speakers give you. 

So, since we can pretty much all agree that crossfeed is a good idea, why was it removed from Qutest? I mean, maybe it wasn't, but I  don't see the buttons for it.


----------



## Triode User (Feb 17, 2018)

Hifi Boy said:


> So, since we can pretty much all agree that crossfeed is a good idea, why was it removed from Qutest? I mean, maybe it wasn't, but I don't see the buttons for it.



Isn't it that Qutest is intended as a DAC to be used in a speaker system?

Granted that you can connect it to a headphone amp or even connect heaphones direct but I don't think that was it's intended function.


----------



## draytonklammer

I'm somewhat surprised how many people are using maximum crossfeed.

I've been fighting with it back and forth.


----------



## AndrewOld

nbarnard36 said:


> Ray dude, can you provide any source for this information? Is that stated in the manual? I wonder how you figured that out, as the setting disappears when headphones are disconnected...



I have confirmed the behaviour using the pink noise test at wooferbasstest.com:

http://wooferbasstest.com/pink-noise-20-hz-to-20-khz-left-right-channel/subwoofer-test.html

Play the right hand only pink noise and you’ll get sound from the left hand channel with cross-feed on, and vice versa.

Any left / right channel only test signal will do. It’s bad design.


----------



## tunes

Triode User said:


> Maybe because a system with Blu2 and Dave connected to something such as Innuos Zenith SE sounds so darned good (possibly better than many or most analogue systems) and is also convenient.


Has anyone A-B compared the FAVE


musicday said:


> A review of Dave and Abyss Phi will be much appreciated by the community.
> A YouTube video will be even better


Anyone compared the DAVE to the MSB Technology Analog DAC D/A converter and Analog Power Supply
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content...g-power-base-power-supply#kwI8uEiqIRfkTdAE.99


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes mia culpa; I had intended that crossfeed control would get disabled when not in headphone mode; but lots of people prefer the option to be there (I have once or twice found it useful myself with some speaker set-ups), so I decided to keep the mistake in place. But you need to remember to unset it though when going back to speakers.


----------



## AndrewOld (Feb 17, 2018)

Rob Watts said:


> Yes mia culpa; I had intended that crossfeed control would get disabled when not in headphone mode; but lots of people prefer the option to be there (I have once or twice found it useful myself with some speaker set-ups), so I decided to keep the mistake in place. But you need to remember to unset it though when going back to speakers.



It would be fine having it for both modes, but if so it should be switchable in both modes and visible on the display. It’s not a big deal for me as I hardly listen to headphones but I did once mistakenly leave crossfeed set. The issue could be quite relevant in a shop or show setting where folk might frequently switch betweeen phones and speakers and not be aware how that last user left the system. If you don’t use headphones you might also buy one ex-dem from a dealer or second-hand and never realise that crossfeed is set.


----------



## Hifi Boy

Triode User said:


> Isn't it that Qutest is intended as a DAC to be used in a speaker system?
> 
> Granted that you can connect it to a headphone amp or even connect heaphones direct but I don't think that was it's intended function.


 I don't see how a DAC is specifically intended for a speaker system. I bet most of the people who'll buy Qutest will be headfiers, thus, will connect it to a headphone amp.


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## Triode User

Hifi Boy said:


> I don't see how a DAC is specifically intended for a speaker system. I bet most of the people who'll buy Qutest will be headfiers, thus, will connect it to a headphone amp.



That’s because your view of the world is skewed by being a headphone user. I never use headphones so naturally my view of the Hi-Fi world accepts that most users of Qutest might be using speakers. If I was Chord I might feel that headphone users already have Hugo2 which is targeted at them. Only feedback from dealers or Chord might give an insight into who uses 2Qute or Qutest and for what. For you and me to guess is nothing more than wild speculation.


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## Hifi Boy

Ok, but that wasn't my point.

It doesn't really matter whether more headfiers will buy Qutest or not. I just said it based on what I perceived from reading multiple forums. For example, WhatsBestForum is heavily geared towards the speaker crowd and they are not so much into Chord gear as we are here.

Just to make it clear, I respect and participate in both communities.

But to get back to my point, I've never heard anyone say that a DAC is specifically to be used with either headphones or a speaker system, I don't know how you make the DAC stop operating if the user plugs in the "wrong" equipment. I hope they don't send Rob personally to punish you if you dare to use a headphone amp with Qutest.

Also, I don't see what Hugo 2 has to do with either buying or not the new Qutest. Sure, the people who already bought Hugo 2 might not opt for it, but if you didn't buy it yet and you just want a DAC, and you want to use it with a headphone amp, what's to stop you from getting one?


----------



## minibox

Rob Watts said:


> Yes mia culpa; I had intended that crossfeed control would get disabled when not in headphone mode; but lots of people prefer the option to be there (I have once or twice found it useful myself with some speaker set-ups), so I decided to keep the mistake in place. But you need to remember to unset it though when going back to speakers.


I've only had my Dave for a few days and, although I love the sound signature of the Dave, I was wondering why my 2 channel soundstage had diminished or seemed a bit congested. I turned crossfeed off and voila! Thank you for making this information available.


----------



## Triode User

Hifi Boy said:


> Ok, but that wasn't my point.
> 
> It doesn't really matter whether more headfiers will buy Qutest or not. I just said it based on what I perceived from reading multiple forums. For example, WhatsBestForum is heavily geared towards the speaker crowd and they are not so much into Chord gear as we are here.
> 
> ...



A DAC is a DAC. I will grant you that. 

But my take on the Chord view of the world is that their headphone amp DACs are better than using external headphone amps and that is perhaps why maybe they don't perceive the Qutest as being targeted at headphone users. Sure though, it is a free world and people can buy kit and use it with what ever they feel like.


----------



## Hifi Boy (Feb 17, 2018)

Triode User said:


> A DAC is a DAC. I will grant you that.
> 
> But my take on the Chord view of the world is that their headphone amp DACs are better than using external headphone amps and that is perhaps why maybe they don't perceive the Qutest as being targeted at headphone users. Sure though, it is a free world and people can buy kit and use it with what ever they feel like.


Exactly, we should all buy what we like. Chord certainly provides great amps in their DACs, but top tier amps are still in league of their own, even if you lose a bit of transparency with them. If you're ever at the Fujiya Avic show, do have a listen to Mass Kobo 406. Dave does not offer that kind of amplification, I can guarantee you that. But Dave + 406 would probably be as close to perfection as it can be.

I mean, you use Dave, which has a headphone out in a speaker system and not as a headphone amp. Which then brings us to why they didn't include a crossfeed setting with Qutest. Many people here would have bought Dave without a headphone out and connected it to their own tube headphone amp, had such a thing been on offer, just to color the sound to the warm side a bit.  I mean look at how many people said they want a stand alone M-Scaler.

Anyways, while we're in the imagination land, I wonder how reasonable is it for us to expect the following product.

Dave + M Scaler + Rob's new digital amp.

As I see it, a perfect headphone system could be achieved in the following way. You take everything Dave has which you need to make the DAC. You then take the M Scaler from Blu 2 to get the 1M taps. You then package it into a one box solution (much like Goldmund Telos HDA or Simaudio 430 HAD). This would of course also include the new digital amp that Rob's working on. Granted it would have to be reworked into a headphone amp as opposed to a power amp which I assume it's going to be.

For the finishing touch, you make the thing upgradable for free, just like PS Audio does with their DirectStream DAC. Obsolescence is dealt with, at least with the digital part of the system for many years to come.

And just to go completely crazy, you could have an upgraded version which would have the Davina built in as well. This would allow us to play vinyl straight into the system which would get digitized and processed by the rest of the system.

I thought of this few days ago and just wanted to throw it out there for people to ponder on.


----------



## Jawed

Hifi Boy said:


> I thought of this few days ago and just wanted to throw it out there for people to ponder on.


Oh boy, if only you'd read the Chord threads, you'd have realised we've pondered all this stuff plenty of times 

Now playing: This Mortal Coil - 'Til I Gain Control Again


----------



## miketlse

Hifi Boy said:


> Exactly, we should all buy what we like. Chord certainly provides great amps in their DACs, but top tier amps are still in league of their own, even if you lose a bit of transparency with them. If you're ever at the Fujiya Avic show, do have a listen to Mass Kobo 406. Dave does not offer that kind of amplification, I can guarantee you that. But Dave + 406 would probably be as close to perfection as it can be.
> 
> I mean, you use Dave, which has a headphone out in a speaker system and not as a headphone amp. Which then brings us to why they didn't include a crossfeed setting with Qutest. Many people here would have bought Dave without a headphone out and connected it to their own tube headphone amp, had such a thing been on offer, just to color the sound to the warm side a bit.  I mean look at how many people said they want a stand alone M-Scaler.
> 
> ...


Once you have Davina functionality built in, it is only a small extension of that functionality to include RIIA equalisation in the digital realm, and you then have phono preamp functionality.
Add in the Poly or 2Go functionality, and 'kerpow' what do you have:
A direct competitor for the Devialet one box solutions such as this - but I anticipate that the Chord equivalent would have much better sound quality,
Chord are gradually perfecting each piece of the digital jigsaw, and I hope will eventually produce a device like i described, but some of those jigsaw pieces still seem to be two or three years away from maturity, so there is plenty of time available to daydream/ponder etc.


----------



## Triode User

miketlse said:


> Once you have Davina functionality built in, it is only a small extension of that functionality to include RIIA equalisation in the digital realm, and you then have phono preamp functionality.
> Add in the Poly or 2Go functionality, and 'kerpow' what do you have:
> A direct competitor for the Devialet one box solutions such as this - but I anticipate that the Chord equivalent would have much better sound quality,
> Chord are gradually perfecting each piece of the digital jigsaw, and I hope will eventually produce a device like i described, but some of those jigsaw pieces still seem to be two or three years away from maturity, so there is plenty of time available to daydream/ponder etc.



No doubt this is all expected for 500 dollars and not the likely price tag of 20,000 dollars for all those things together. 

Don’t forget that MScaler in the same box as Dave in the near future has specifically been ruled out by RW due to noise generation.


----------



## miketlse

Triode User said:


> No doubt this is all expected for 500 dollars and not the likely price tag of 20,000 dollars for all those things together.
> 
> Don’t forget that MScaler in the same box as Dave in the near future has specifically been ruled out by RW due to noise generation.


I interpret 'near future' as the next 1 to 3 years - so i don't expect any Chord 'one box solution', to be any closer than 'mid-term, 5 years, or even 'long-term' 10 years.
Given that sort of timescale, RW has a breathing space to try and solve 'today's' technical issues such as noise generation.


----------



## Hifi Boy

miketlse said:


> Once you have Davina functionality built in, it is only a small extension of that functionality to include RIIA equalisation in the digital realm, and you then have phono preamp functionality.
> Add in the Poly or 2Go functionality, and 'kerpow' what do you have:
> A direct competitor for the Devialet one box solutions such as this - but I anticipate that the Chord equivalent would have much better sound quality,
> Chord are gradually perfecting each piece of the digital jigsaw, and I hope will eventually produce a device like i described, but some of those jigsaw pieces still seem to be two or three years away from maturity, so there is plenty of time available to daydream/ponder etc.


 I like where this is going. Sounds like the ultimate system to me. They would just need to make sure the streamer has Tidal + Roon support. The only thing then left for you to buy is the headphone of your choice and maybe a good power supply.


----------



## Hifi Boy

Triode User said:


> No doubt this is all expected for 500 dollars and not the likely price tag of 20,000 dollars for all those things together.
> 
> Don’t forget that MScaler in the same box as Dave in the near future has specifically been ruled out by RW due to noise generation.


Here's the thing. I think I read that it had something to do with the power consumption which the MScaler requires. In any case, you could always add some shielding to fix the noise issue. Aurender A10 has a very compartmentalized design. Inside its case, it houses an SDD, streamer and a DAC. Let's face it, they first want to sell the Blu 2 for as long as they can, and only after a while will we get a standalone MScaler and if we're lucky the system we described above.

Not expecting it sooner than in 5 years time.


----------



## miketlse

Hifi Boy said:


> I like where this is going. Sounds like the ultimate system to me. They would just need to make sure the streamer has Tidal + Roon support. The only thing then left for you to buy is the headphone of your choice and maybe a good power supply.


Certainly a very appealing system, but it could easily be 5 years away.


----------



## Hifi Boy

miketlse said:


> Certainly a very appealing system, but it could easily be 5 years away.


5 years, if we're lucky that is.

In any case, does anyone have any news on this special digital amp that Rob is working on? When is that supposed to see the light of day, at least as a preview or something?


----------



## miketlse

Hifi Boy said:


> 5 years, if we're lucky that is.
> 
> In any case, does anyone have any news on this special digital amp that Rob is working on? When is that supposed to see the light of day, at least as a preview or something?


Only Chord know for sure, but @Mython is usually well informed https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831345/page-668#post-13964611

The digital amps will be a new high-end product line, so I would expect their release to be announced at a high-end focused show.
If (and it is a very speculative if) the digital amps are targeted for 2018 release:

The Bristol Show next weekend seems much too soon, and the visitor focus will probably be on Poly and 2Go instead
Munich High End Show in May would be a candidate
Indulgance Show in September would be another candidate
If there is no news by October, then it is probably too late for 2018.


----------



## Mython

miketlse said:


> Only Chord know for sure, but @Mython is usually well informed https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831345/page-668#post-13964611
> 
> The digital amps will be a new high-end product line, so I would expect their release to be announced at a high-end focused show.
> If (and it is a very speculative if) the digital amps are targeted for 2018 release:
> ...



Before anyone runs too far with my earlier statement in the other thread, I wasn't implying any _particula_r product, but more that we all know Rob and the Chord team are relentlessly busy, rather than resting on their laurels, and the natural outcome is that there are fruits to those labours. It is no secret that Poly has been a challenging product, and it wouldn't surprise me if that may have slightly slowed the progress of 2Go, but we all know that 2Go is, by JF's own admission, in the pipeline for release (hopefully for 2018), and Rob has been chatting about Davina and digital amplification for well over a year, so, eventually, we will hopefully see something appear (although Davina is currently a long way off, as Rob has recently mentioned).

On the plus-side (for those able to afford it), 1milion taps happened sooner than many of us had anticipated (at one point, it was looking like it'd be lucky if we saw it this decade).


----------



## Hifi Boy

I see, thanks for the info guys. Let's keep hoping for the best!


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## miketlse

Mython said:


> Before anyone runs too far with my earlier statement in the other thread, I wasn't implying any _particula_r product, but more that we all know Rob and the Chord team are relentlessly busy, rather than resting on their laurels, and the natural outcome is that there are fruits to those labours. It is no secret that Poly has been a challenging product, and it wouldn't surprise me if that may have slightly slowed the progress of 2Go, but we all know that 2Go is, by JF's own admission, in the pipeline for release (hopefully for 2018), and Rob has been chatting about Davina and digital amplification for well over a year, so, eventually, we will hopefully see something appear (although Davina is currently a long way off, as Rob has recently mentioned).
> 
> On the plus-side (for those able to afford it), 1milion taps happened sooner than many of us had anticipated (at one point, it was looking like it'd be lucky if we saw it this decade).


Don't worry I wasn't trying to claim that you had special info about the digital amps.
Chord have already publically announced the poly, plus a low-key set of pictures of 2Go. JF has posted that 2Go is paused whilst the Poly issues are understood and sorted out, so us head-fiers hope there will be an announcement later this year. Presumably there will also be announcements about the Android app for Poly (and presumably for 2Go apps).
So there are already several plausible announcements to wait for in 2018 - but Chord do have a several product families (eg analogue amps, plus some members of CD players/transports, streamers) that rarely get mentioned on Head-Fi, but are prime candidates for announcements at High End audio shows.
There are only a limited number of High End shows each year, and their dates are known well in advance. 
I was merely trying to point out, that if there are going to be any high end equipment announcements, the dates of those shows are the most likely to be interesting.


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## miketlse

Hifi Boy said:


> I see, thanks for the info guys. Let's keep hoping for the best!


I am optimistic that the best will happen, It is just a matter of when.


----------



## Deftone

Quite hard to believe that one day (if rob wants to) there could be the combined sound quality of blu2 and Dave in something the size of mojo.


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## miketlse

Deftone said:


> Quite hard to believe that one day (if rob wants to) there could be the combined sound quality of blu2 and Dave in something the size of mojo.


Oh ye of little faith. 
Blu2 is essentially Blu1 + MScaler, in the same sized case.
Minituarization continues relentlessly, even if at a slower rate than before.


----------



## GryphonGuy

nbarnard36 said:


> Ray dude, can you provide any source for this information? Is that stated in the manual? I wonder how you figured that out, as the setting disappears when headphones are disconnected...



It is true! The source is any DAVE owner who has simply unplugged the headphones and played the crossfeed signal through the back outputs. The soundstage produced by your speakers is not "right" or even a little confused if you leave the crossfeed on. It is a bug, for sure or an undocumented "feature" at best.

Regards
GG


----------



## Deftone

miketlse said:


> Oh ye of little faith.
> Blu2 is essentially Blu1 + MScaler, in the same sized case.
> Minituarization continues relentlessly, even if at a slower rate than before.



Yes I know but I’m always amazed by tech and that means I’ll always appreciate it just that bit more.


----------



## Natronious

GryphonGuy said:


> It is true! The source is any DAVE owner who has simply unplugged the headphones and played the crossfeed signal through the back outputs. The soundstage produced by your speakers is not "right" or even a little confused if you leave the crossfeed on. It is a bug, for sure or an undocumented "feature" at best.
> 
> Regards
> GG





I think that the main thing, is that with the cross feed setting being implemented the way that it is, it is best to make it very clear. Another user commented that they were experiencing that their '2 channel soundstage had diminished or seemed a bit congested', and that they *didn't know why*. So thanks to RayDude for highlighting this issue again, as it is best to spell this out clearly. 

The best situation would be to have the ability to make adjustments to the cross feed when headphones are not plugged in, as has been covered. Additionally, it is a good point that in some situations, such as using the rca outputs for a separate headphone amp, the crossfeed function is useful beyond the headphone out. Rob himself even commented that some speaker setups benefited from the application of the cross feed function...


----------



## musickid

an all inclusive one box solution minimises future upgradability from a modular perspective which would seriously affect profit margins if implemented. what would a customer need after such an acquisition unless the system upgrades themselves cost dollar$$. i foresee a continuation in different boxes for different functions and the slow integration of such high end devices. its the only model which makes good business for the medium to long term. unless............??


----------



## Hifi Boy

musickid said:


> an all inclusive one box solution minimises future upgradability from a modular perspective which would seriously affect profit margins if implemented. what would a customer need after such an acquisition unless the system upgrades themselves cost dollar$$. i foresee a continuation in different boxes for different functions and the slow integration of such high end devices. its the only model which makes good business for the medium to long term. unless............??


 it's really not that hard to do a modular design. Look at MSB, their products are modular and you can pick and choose components you want.

This one-box solution would simply consist of an interface box. Much like a PC tower with a motherboard. Then you simply plug in the components you want when they become available, or when you feel like upgrading. The design could look something like this.

http://www.theluxechronicles.com/the_luxe_chronicles/2008/01/steinway-lyngdo.html

Now, just remove the speakers, and take that control thing in the middle. It's big enough to store all the future upgrades you could want. DAC, MScaler, Davina, streamer and possibly some kind of hypothetical digital preamp. Now, I'm not saying anything like that will ever get built, but it's fun to imagine.

This could actually be a solution for both headphone users and speaker users since the thing would be large enough to store the digital amp Rob's working on. Also, a lot of people use speaker taps with their HE-1000 for example. So it's  a win-win situation.


----------



## bigfatpaulie

Hifi Boy said:


> it's really not that hard to do a modular design. Look at MSB, their products are modular and you can pick and choose components you want.



I think you just disproved your own point.  Yes, let's look at MSB.  The Analog DAC, with the power base and volume control was about the same price as DAVE but leagues behind on sound.  The current base model from MSB is the Reference DAC which is $39,500 for the BASE model.  For similar sound from MSB, you have to spend a great deal more than on DAVE.  A modular unit is far, far more costly to build and produce than an integrated system like DAVE.


----------



## Hifi Boy

bigfatpaulie said:


> I think you just disproved your own point.  Yes, let's look at MSB.  The Analog DAC, with the power base and volume control was about the same price as DAVE but leagues behind on sound.  The current base model from MSB is the Reference DAC which is $39,500 for the BASE model.  For similar sound from MSB, you have to spend a great deal more than on DAVE.  A modular unit is far, far more costly to build and produce than an integrated system like DAVE.


No, not necessarily. The pricing has little to nothing to do with cost of production. The final price depends on the profit margins. Think of HE-1000 and Susvara. That's the difference between $3000 vs $6000 for what exactly? Is Susvara modular in nature? No, they just decided they wanted a higher profit margin, that's all.

Same goes for PC vs Macs. Take an iMac which is not modular and you'll pay quote a bit more for it than the same speced PC, which is modular and you can upgrade along the way. So, the moral of the story is, profit margins outweigh production costs almost all the time, especially in niches like HiFi audio.

Anyway, weren't you supposed to be dead?


----------



## bigfatpaulie (Feb 18, 2018)

So give an an example of a modular DAC that sounds as good as a non-modular option that is the same price.  Go ahead, I'll wait.

Being modular is a selling feature and if, according to you, it is the same cost to design and produce, AND it is a market advantage, what is it so rare?  Surely everyone would do it.  If I had a DAC company, as a capitalist, I know I would.  It seems like a easy future income: an endless release of necessary modules.  An up-scaling module.  An input buffer module.  A power filtering module.  An MQA module.  $$$  Cha-ching $$$!  I can see my beach house now!

Sure, profit margin has nothing to do with with production cost: if it did, we would have more modular designed products.

Dead?  Yeah, but sometimes I rise from the grave to give other members a hard time


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## jscmd2000

I know one very stinky company that does exactly that. Make a killing?  Not sure but likely not a lot.


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## Hifi Boy (Feb 18, 2018)

bigfatpaulie said:


> So give an an example of a modular DAC that sounds as good as a non-modular option that is the same price.  Go ahead, I'll wait.


Well I don't necessarily need to know that much about DACs to make that argument. I'm not a reviewer and don't have an exhaustive array of DACs at home to be able to give you that info. Besides, a PC vs Mac was a fair comparison which proves my point about modularity.



> Being modular is a selling feature and if, according to you, it is the same cost to design and produce, AND it is a market advantage, what is it so rare?  Surely everyone would do it.  If I had a DAC company, as a capitalist, I know I would.  It seems like a easy future income: an endless release of necessary modules.  An up-scaling module.  An input buffer module.  A power filtering module.  An MQA module.  $$$  Cha-ching $$$!  I can see my beach house now!


 Well many things are rare. There are less FPGA DACs than regular ones, right? Why isn't everyone making those and doing a good job of it like Chord is? And no, the production price is not the answer, Hugo 2 is probably better than most non-Chord DACs ever released for fraction of the prrice.



> Sure, profit margin has nothing to do with with production cost: if it did, we would have more modular designed products.


Not necessarily, tube DACs and amps are great as well but you don't see every company implementing a tube path in their design. Upgradable firmware is great as well, I don't know many  people who would contest that, but Chord is a case in point which doesn't provide this feature for their products. Pricing here is not the issue, I think we can both agree on that. Engineering skills are not the issue as well, I mean, for God's sake, it's Rob Watts were taking about.

So what is?

I don't know, since I can't read minds. But I assume it's the proprietary code for the WTA filter. Chord doesn't want anyone to get their greedy hands on it and reverse-engineer it and implement something similar in their products. This filter technology is basically Chord's DAC division's bread and butter.

In short, price of development does not always dictate design decisions.



> Dead?  Yeah, but sometimes I rise from the grave to give other members a hard time


 Yes, I saw you get killed!


----------



## MacedonianHero

bigfatpaulie said:


> So give an an example of a modular DAC that sounds as good as a non-modular option that is the same price.  Go ahead, I'll wait.
> 
> Being modular is a selling feature and if, according to you, it is the same cost to design and produce, AND it is a market advantage, what is it so rare?  Surely everyone would do it.  If I had a DAC company, as a capitalist, I know I would.  It seems like a easy future income: an endless release of necessary modules.  An up-scaling module.  An input buffer module.  A power filtering module.  An MQA module.  $$$  Cha-ching $$$!  I can see my beach house now!
> 
> ...



Hey Paul, not sure I kinda still consider the DAVE a modular DAC as there isn't a separate headphone amplifier...the brilliance of Chord's designers were to use the purity of the DAC section to drive headphones without the added distortion/colouration of a separate amplifier. A brilliant solution methinks! Hope you're doing well!


----------



## Triode User

MacedonianHero said:


> Hey Paul, not sure I kinda still consider the DAVE a modular DAC as there isn't a separate headphone amplifier...the brilliance of Chord's designers were to use the purity of the DAC section to drive headphones without the added distortion/colouration of a separate amplifier. A brilliant solution methinks! Hope you're doing well!



I’m pretty sure Dave does have an amplifier section ie it is not just the dac section driving headphones. In fact that is why Rob Watts suggests the RCA output is best because the XLR output has an extra amplifier stage.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Triode User said:


> I’m pretty sure Dave does have an amplifier section ie it is not just the dac section driving headphones. In fact that is why Rob Watts suggests the RCA output is best because the XLR output has an extra amplifier stage.



No it doesn't...same for all Chord DACs. Rob recommends the RCA outputs because its a single ended DAC and not dual L and R DAC chipsets.


----------



## Triode User

MacedonianHero said:


> No it doesn't...same for all Chord DACs. Rob recommends the RCA outputs because its a single ended DAC and not dual L and R DAC chipsets.



I’m not sure I can be bothered to find the post but I’m 100% sure @Rob Watts   said that the balanced output on the Dave has additional op amps. Rob, if you are passing through perhaps you might clarify?


----------



## Rob Watts

Triode User said:


> I’m pretty sure Dave does have an amplifier section ie it is not just the dac section driving headphones. In fact that is why Rob Watts suggests the RCA output is best because the XLR output has an extra amplifier stage.





MacedonianHero said:


> No it doesn't...same for all Chord DACs. Rob recommends the RCA outputs because its a single ended DAC and not dual L and R DAC chipsets.



You are both in a way correct.

Yes my DAC architecture is very simple, and this accounts (in part) for it's transparency. In a conventional DAC you have, by necessity,  a very complex analogue section - a differential architecture, with two current to voltage converters (I to V), differential to single ended converter plus filter, and finally headphone amplifier.

Because my DAC's are discrete components, I can make a single ended DAC; also, the filtering is very simple, as the OP of the DAC is at 104MHz and fully digitally filtered, so out of band noise is several orders of magnitude smaller than usual, so I can have very simple analogue filtering. What I do is combine the I to V, filtering and headphone drive into one single amp section; and in terms of actual components in the direct signal path we end up with only two resistors and two capacitors with one amplifier. This makes the conversion path from analogue to digital extremely short and simple, and this in part accounts for my DAC's sounding so very transparent. This is why when you use Mojo/Hugo/Dave driving efficient loudspeakers directly you get such extraordinary transparency, with depth perception that is actually stunning - and why the power pulse array will be so exciting, as this technology also has very simple and direct path from digital to analogue.

But of course for Dave's balanced outputs you need a negative signal as well as a positive one; and the negative signal comes from an additional inverting amplifier.


----------



## Triode User

Rob Watts said:


> You are both in a way correct.
> 
> Yes my DAC architecture is very simple, and this accounts (in part) for it's transparency. In a conventional DAC you have, by necessity,  a very complex analogue section - a differential architecture, with two current to voltage converters (I to V), differential to single ended converter plus filter, and finally headphone amplifier.
> 
> ...



Rob, Thanks as usual. 
I think you are being kind to me, I would have put me as being half right.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Rob Watts said:


> You are both in a way correct.
> 
> Yes my DAC architecture is very simple, and this accounts (in part) for it's transparency. In a conventional DAC you have, by necessity,  a very complex analogue section - a differential architecture, with two current to voltage converters (I to V), differential to single ended converter plus filter, and finally headphone amplifier.
> 
> ...



Thanks Rob for a very thorough explanation!


----------



## xiaobao0707

So my Dave is arriving today finally to HK. I do have one question for veteran Dave lovers here about streaming. I use Tidal a lot but from what i read Rob doesn't really buy in the concept of MQS. 

I can live with that for now with the Hugo 2, but with Dave I would love to have absolutely the best. Will Qobuz be a better streaming choice? Thanks guys.


----------



## Triode User

xiaobao0707 said:


> So my Dave is arriving today finally to HK. I do have one question for veteran Dave lovers here about streaming. I use Tidal a lot but from what i read Rob doesn't really buy in the concept of MQS.
> 
> I can live with that for now with the Hugo 2, but with Dave I would love to have absolutely the best. Will Qobuz be a better streaming choice? Thanks guys.



I use Tidal HiFi which sounds great and don’t even think about MQA.


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## rgs9200m (Feb 20, 2018)

OK, I finally got around to trying my DAVE with my DSD files from several of my discs and I really like the results.
I notice the great hallmarks of SACD that I am familiar with: no more glare with any headphone or music, more solid/detailed bass, and images and vocals really stand out more and are better defined, but not aggressively, just naturally.
The DSD mode of DAVE is quite good. There is just more there there and is a step up resolution and and with less digital fatigue than the standard versions in my experiments so far.

I need to do some more testing with more discs to get a better feel for this, but so far, so good.
I have not seen much reporting on DAVE in DSD mode, so I thought I would report my impressions here. (And this Legends/Get It On classic rock collection disc from Audio Fidelity; they have a few of these in a series.They're really nice.)

I've started with things like Carole King, the Doors, the Moody Blues, Grand Funk, and the Guess Who.

As far as I know, you can't do this via streaming (or even downloading). So this is a real treat for me.

The saturation and deep texture is pretty amazing. I'm listening to Tapestry by Carole King as I write here, and the reverb and saturation of the piano and other instruments and the flow of the vocals just stands out as so full of life with real touchable shape, size, and depth of field. And there is sweetness and impact and gobs of little details I do not hear in the regular redbook version. There is ambiance galore.

Bass is especially great, much cleaner, with any muddiness or boom or opaqueness or overhang basically gone.

It's all basically more clarity without fatigue.

I was listening to Manfred Mann's Blinded By The Light, and suddenly a piano starts clanging and I just say, Jeez, what is that? It's startling and real, like I haven't heard a piano note like that in long time, just in an ordinary pop song. 

Well, I shouldn't say there is no glare ever, but vs. the glare in the same recording in non-DSD, it's just not nearly as painful or making me want to reach for the JRiver equalizer screen. So far, I've done no EQ at all with my DSD files with DAVE. (I usually use EQ for one thing only, reducing digital glare.)

I know Rob is not a big fan of SACD, but he sure has done a nice job of interpreting and presenting it.
I've been listening with my ZMF Eikon and Auteur.

So if you haven't tried out your DAVE in DSD mode, I think you should give it a try to see what DAVE can do.


----------



## xiaobao0707

Triode User said:


> I use Tidal HiFi which sounds great and don’t even think about MQA.


Thanks Triode!


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## AndrewOld (Feb 20, 2018)

xiaobao0707 said:


> So my Dave is arriving today finally to HK. I do have one question for veteran Dave lovers here about streaming. I use Tidal a lot but from what i read Rob doesn't really buy in the concept of MQS.
> 
> I can live with that for now with the Hugo 2, but with Dave I would love to have absolutely the best. Will Qobuz be a better streaming choice? Thanks guys.



I have been using Qobuz (with a DAVE) for quite a long time. I started off with a monthly cd quality subscription to see how well i got on with it, and then upgraded to Sublime+ a while back so I can now stream in hi res. The choice is fantastic, especially if you are into classical and jazz, you aren’t even dependent on your internet speed because you can download and listen offline (without buying) if you want, access to sleeve notes is excellent. Browsing and searching and discovery is quite good too. I wish there was more flexibility in organising favourites and playlists, but I am sure it will come. The hires you get with Qobuz is genuine hires, unlike MQA which I think is mumbojumbo. If you can stream a 24/96 master directly what possible advantage can MQA give you, since it is lossy?  I have also tried Tidal but couldn’t get on with the interface at all. The lack of clarity, or should I say honesty, over MQA really puts me off. ymmv.


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> I have been using Qobuz (with a DAVE) for quite a long time. I started off with a monthly cd quality subscription to see how well i got on with it, and then upgraded to Sublime+ a while back so I can now stream in hi res. The choice is fantastic, especially if you are into classical and jazz, you aren’t even dependent on your internet speed because you can download and listen offline (without buying) if you want, access to sleeve notes is excellent. Browsing and searching and discovery is quite good too. I wish there was more flexibility in organising favourites and playlists, but I am sure it will come. The hires you get with Qobuz is genuine hires, unlike MQA which I think is mumbojumbo. If you can stream a 24/96 master directly what possible advantage can MQA give you, since it is lossy?  I have also tried Tidal but couldn’t get on with the interface at all. The lack of clarity, or should I say honesty, over MQA really puts me off. ymmv.



Thanks for those comments, I might have a look at Qobuz myself.


----------



## astrostar59

AndrewOld said:


> I have been using Qobuz (with a DAVE) for quite a long time. I started off with a monthly cd quality subscription to see how well i got on with it, and then upgraded to Sublime+ a while back so I can now stream in hi res. The choice is fantastic, especially if you are into classical and jazz, you aren’t even dependent on your internet speed because you can download and listen offline (without buying) if you want, access to sleeve notes is excellent. Browsing and searching and discovery is quite good too. I wish there was more flexibility in organising favourites and playlists, but I am sure it will come. The hires you get with Qobuz is genuine hires, unlike MQA which I think is mumbojumbo. If you can stream a 24/96 master directly what possible advantage can MQA give you, since it is lossy?  I have also tried Tidal but couldn’t get on with the interface at all. The lack of clarity, or should I say honesty, over MQA really puts me off. ymmv.



On Tidal, if you use the Tidal app is it poor, bad sound quality and fiddly interface. I access it inside Audirvana+ 3 and it sounds much better, as good as Redbook on y hard drive. Some high res is better as well. Classic on Tidal is not so hot, poor library so far and annoying way to search titles. I just hope Tidal keeps afloat as rumours they are in difficulties. We need more competition to drive the subscription prices down IMO.


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## Triode User

astrostar59 said:


> On Tidal, if you use the Tidal app is it poor, bad sound quality and fiddly interface. I access it inside Audirvana+ 3 and it sounds much better, as good as Redbook on y hard drive. Some high res is better as well. Classic on Tidal is not so hot, poor library so far and annoying way to search titles. I just hope Tidal keeps afloat as rumours they are in difficulties. We need more competition to drive the subscription prices down IMO.



I use a Auralic Aries to access Tidal and that works pretty well. Auralic have updated the Lighting app to the point where it is pretty good at custom settings for the Aries. Also I access Tidal through an Innuos Zenith also with good results.


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## draytonklammer (Feb 21, 2018)

Very glad I purchased the Dave weeks back.
It was that extra percentage to bring my setup to the next level.

Feels like end game for my DAC.
Honestly this thing is great as an amp, too, so I might have found both of those for now, unless I go electrostatic in the future.


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## GryphonGuy

draytonklammer said:


> Very glad I purchased the Dave weeks back.
> It was that extra percentage to bring my setup to the next level.
> 
> Feels like end game.



Unless some breakthrough technology is brought to market, my DAVE is my endgame as far as a DAC is concerned.

Regards
GG


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## etnt

You know how it goes when you first listen to the Dave
"Wow!!! This is magical!! That's it, this is the end of the road, I'm gonna get the Dave and re-listen to the entire music library"

And the cycle will repeat when you listen to the BluDave combo.


----------



## theveterans

I wonder how the Dave compares to the Linn Klimax DSM 3


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## rgs9200m (Feb 22, 2018)

What is the reason for fixing the volume at -3dB in DAC-ONLY mode rather than flat (-0dB)?
(I notice that in regular mode (non-DAC-ONLY), the volume control can be set to -0dB.)
Is there anything different about what is sent through the analog outputs in DAC-ONLY mode other than the fixed attenuation?
Thank you.


----------



## MacedonianHero

draytonklammer said:


> Very glad I purchased the Dave weeks back.
> It was that extra percentage to bring my setup to the next level.
> 
> Feels like end game for my DAC.
> Honestly this thing is great as an amp, too, so I might have found both of those for now, unless I go electrostatic in the future.



Actually, after having the Phi/DAVE/GS-X MK2 setup for a month, my stat setup (SR-009/SR-007Mk1/LL2) was quickly sold off.


----------



## draytonklammer

MacedonianHero said:


> Actually, after having the Phi/DAVE/GS-X MK2 setup for a month, my stat setup (SR-009/SR-007Mk1/LL2) was quickly sold off.



I can honestly see why. This setup is insane.


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## MacedonianHero

draytonklammer said:


> I can honestly see why. This setup is insane.



Agreed!


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## Hifi Boy

theveterans said:


> I wonder how the Dave compares to the Linn Klimax DSM 3


That's actually what I asked a long time ago. On several other forums as well.


----------



## hieukm

Hifi Boy said:


> That's actually what I asked a long time ago. On several other forums as well.



You think Blu2 + Dave is nothing special while Dave is a reference DAC then you need to get your ear check


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## Rob Watts (Feb 22, 2018)

rgs9200m said:


> What is the reason for fixing the volume at -3dB in DAC-ONLY mode rather than flat (-0dB)?
> (I notice that in regular mode (non-DAC-ONLY), the volume control can be set to -0dB.)
> Is there anything different about what is send through the analog outputs in DAC-ONLY mode other that the fixed attenuation?
> Thank you.



-3dB on Dave gives exactly 3v RMS with 0dBFS (max digital input possible). And 3v RMS was historically Chord's reference output level for DAC's. And 0dB is set to be the same level as Hugo which is 4.24V RMS.


----------



## rgs9200m (Feb 22, 2018)

OK, thanks Rob. I have experimented with using DAC-only mode and regular mode with the volume level at -0dB, and sometimes I like it one way, sometimes the other.

I guess it's some sort of interaction with my amp or the particular piece of music.


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## rgs9200m (Feb 22, 2018)

Is anyone using Grados with their DAVE? I finally did a long session with my PS1000e with my DAVE (mostly with my DSD files) and I was mightily impressed. The bass was pretty darn nice and tight and fast with the DAVE, something the PS1Ke needs.


----------



## etnt

rgs9200m said:


> Is anyone using Grados with their DAVE? I finally did a long session with my PS1000e with my DAVE (mostly with my DSD files) and I was mightily impressed. The bass was pretty darn nice and tight and fast with the DAVE, something the PS1Ke needs.


I used to use the ps1k and ps1ke on the Dave and they really sing.


----------



## tunes

rgs9200m said:


> OK, I finally got around to trying my DAVE with my DSD files from several of my discs and I really like the results.
> I notice the great hallmarks of SACD that I am familiar with: no more glare with any headphone or music, more solid/detailed bass, and images and vocals really stand out more and are better defined, but not aggressively, just naturally.
> The DSD mode of DAVE is quite good. There is just more there there and is a step up resolution and and with less digital fatigue than the standard versions in my experiments so far.
> 
> ...


----------



## tunes

rgs9200m said:


> OK, I finally got around to trying my DAVE with my DSD files from several of my discs and I really like the results.
> I notice the great hallmarks of SACD that I am familiar with: no more glare with any headphone or music, more solid/detailed bass, and images and vocals really stand out more and are better defined, but not aggressively, just naturally.
> The DSD mode of DAVE is quite good. There is just more there there and is a step up resolution and and with less digital fatigue than the standard versions in my experiments so far.
> 
> ...


What files are DSD?  Aren’t FLAC files from ripped CDs considered digital files?  Where do you get DSD files and are they more or less expensive than CDs?


----------



## xiaobao0707

AndrewOld said:


> I have been using Qobuz (with a DAVE) for quite a long time. I started off with a monthly cd quality subscription to see how well i got on with it, and then upgraded to Sublime+ a while back so I can now stream in hi res. The choice is fantastic, especially if you are into classical and jazz, you aren’t even dependent on your internet speed because you can download and listen offline (without buying) if you want, access to sleeve notes is excellent. Browsing and searching and discovery is quite good too. I wish there was more flexibility in organising favourites and playlists, but I am sure it will come. The hires you get with Qobuz is genuine hires, unlike MQA which I think is mumbojumbo. If you can stream a 24/96 master directly what possible advantage can MQA give you, since it is lossy?  I have also tried Tidal but couldn’t get on with the interface at all. The lack of clarity, or should I say honesty, over MQA really puts me off. ymmv.


Thanks AndrewOld for this encouraging information. I think I should definitely try sublime+. I’m on Tidal Hifi now.


----------



## xiaobao0707

After only three days with Dave, I encountered a huge problem today. Like most of you might have done when you get Dave, I’m rediscovering old collections which I stop listen to for years, in this case Michael Jackson’s History. Today in the office while listening Billie Jean thru Hugo 2, I suddenly dislikes the sound out of Hugo2. It’s supposed to be of similar signature as Dave but I suddenly found it flat, plastic, liveless. On my way back home the impression only got deeper. Just as I’m typing this, Black or White from the same album start to play and the sound of the kid taking out his guitar from the luggage sounds so real that I thought it is from my bedroom... am I smoking dope? It’s unbelievable thinking about how I loved my Hugo2 and proud to be among the first to get them in HK only months ago.


----------



## statfi

With Blu2/DAVE is it worth paying ANY premium for higher res, PCM versions than redbook of the same recording (i.e.. same recording, mix and production: only final res is different)?


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## Mython (Feb 23, 2018)

tunes said:


> What files are DSD?



DSD is an acronym for 'Direct Stream Digital', which is Sony's proprietary method for digitally encoding music. It is a source of endless debate and controversy as to whether or not Sony's method is superior or inferior to open-standard PCM (Rob Watts, the designer of DAVE, puts forward quite a convincing technical case for DSD being inferior).



Spoiler: some DSD shortcomings






Rob Watts said:


> DSD is a special class of delta sigma; it is of course delta sigma but set to 1 bit output. There are particular problems with 1 bit:
> 
> 1. They are obviously lower resolution than say a typical 5 bit delta sigma (sixteen times less open loop resolution)
> 
> ...








Spoiler: ...but also see






jamato8 said:


> So do I take from this that you are hearing that PCM is more transparent than DSD on quality recordings?
> 
> Part of the danger, IMO, of purchasing DSD is that a number of them have been created from PCM recordings, and this is true of a well respected firm that released a number of DSD recordings, so to know the true source is often the question. I have some true DSD recordings arriving in a few days. Here in the bush I can't download as I don't have the bandwidth to do this but can purchase them and get them sent to me.






Rob Watts said:


> Yes. But.. I have heard awful DSD's compared to regular PCM, and awful PCM compared to DSD. So if the recording started as DSD, stick to DSD and vice versa.
> 
> The 2L website does allow us to hear DXD (352.8 kHz PCM the DSD master tape if you like) against DSD, and you can hear the losses that DSD gives. And if I were not using a DAC with a WTA filter, I guess I would prefer DSD every time. So like most things in life, it all depends!








In any case, each person can easily try it and draw their own conclusions.




tunes said:


> Aren’t FLAC files from ripped CDs considered digital files?



Correct.

.Flac is a lossless compression format aimed at making digital PCM files smaller.  Note that a DAC doesn't know that a file is in .Flac format, because the file is decompressed to PCM before being fed to the DAC.



tunes said:


> Where do you get DSD files and are they more or less expensive than CDs?



DSD files have become increasingly widely available for purchase, as digital downloads, from online retailers of Hi-Res music, such as *Acoustic Sounds* and *Blue Coast Records*

Frankly, it annoys me how much of a premium customers are charged for Hi-Res music, but, again, each person can draw their own conclusions.

Personally, since hearing Chord's Hugo 1, three years ago, I have arrived at the conclusion that standard CD-resolution (either played from the disc, or from equivalent resolution .flac files) is hard to beat by a _substantial_ margin, unless (perhaps) one has an exceptionally revealing system (DAVE being but one link in such a system). Rob's DAC methodology reconstructs the analogue signal so accurately from humble vanilla CD-res material that it sounds bloody marvellous.

As I, and quite a few other Head-Fiers, have said many times, it's arguably more important how competently the original performance was recorded, how competently it may have been mixed, and how competently it was mastered (including the critical factor of the _accuracy_ of the chosen ADC, at whatever point it is used during the studio process), than it is what resolution the end product is purchased in (within reason!).


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## rgs9200m (Feb 22, 2018)

On the CA site (computer audiophile), there is a very active and popular thread about how to now (much more easily) rip your SACDs. No need for an ancient PS3 any longer.

Many people seem to have found SACD/DSD religion and refuse to let the format retire.

DAVE has a fine native DSD processor; it's a shame not to use it if some of your favorite music is available on SACD I believe. SACDs are still widely available on sites like MusicDirect and ElusiveDisc.
There is a slow but steady trickle of releases of older/newer/and classical albums(like Linda Ronstadt's Heart Like a Wheel that just came out, along with Buddy Holly and Grand Funk). Audio Fidelity periodically issues things.
I think the Rolling Stones, Doors, the Who, and Bob Dylan SACD recordings are spectacular. (Along with Fleetwood Mac/Carole King/Carly Simon.) Certainly enough to keep you busy.

It does sound quite different from any other digital recording system, high-res or otherwise. Whether you like it or not may be a matter of preference. And some SACDs sound better than others to different degrees.
I personally like it a lot. But that's just my ears.

Now that ripping is easier, you don't have to spin discs, which really hurt DSD.

For some reason, SACD/DSD is much more popular and appreciated on Audiogon and CA and Audio Asylum. And Rob did include the native DSD processing in DAVE (and a fine implementation of it), so there must be a reason for that.

When I mainly listened to my EMM cdp, SACD was always a revelation in sound, so that's how I got hooked on it.


----------



## Hifi Boy

hieukm said:


> You think Blu2 + Dave is nothing special while Dave is a reference DAC then you need to get your ear check


Let's either continue this discussion here or on whatsbestforum, no point in discussing it in both places.


----------



## GryphonGuy

statfi said:


> With Blu2/DAVE is it worth paying ANY premium for higher res, PCM versions than redbook of the same recording (i.e.. same recording, mix and production: only final res is different)?



Well Rob is hoping that the processing that BluDave does and the sound achieved is pretty close to what was acoustically recorded. His Davina project (ADC) will attempt to show the differences between hi-rez acoustic recordings with identical but low-rez recordings processed by BluDave.

So your question is in the process of being answered and if the BluDave combination is as good as we all think it is (including Rob) then the differences should be so small as to make low-rez music purchases sustainable and pleasurable with a BluDave combination in your system.

Regards
GG


----------



## statfi

GryphonGuy said:


> pretty close to what was acoustically recorded


Thanks for the cogent answer!  However, it seems to me that it would be possible and interesting to answer the question for the current status, pre Davina.  So, from a practical, empirical point of view, is there any deterministic advantage from higher sampling rates when using essentially perfect reconstruction (BluDave).  *I'd* like to see what various people are finding.  Please correct me if I am wrong, but the introduction of Davina will not *instantly* fix anything about available digital music.  I *think* that Davina's benefits will only be available on new digital recordings, either from microphones or analog masters.

Let's take an example:

Title: Beethoven: Piano Concertos 
Artist: Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Georg Solti, Vladimir Ashkenazy
http://www.hdtracks.com/beethoven-piano-concertos-ashkenazy $34.98 96/24
https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Concertos-Ludwig-von/dp/B0000041K9 Audio CD, Box set, $19.26
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/beethoven-piano-concertos/1090331201 $16.99

Should I expect a worthwhile improvement in sound quality from the hdtracks' file at ~2x the price?


----------



## Triode User

statfi said:


> Thanks for the cogent answer!  However, it seems to me that it would be possible and interesting to answer the question for the current status, pre Davina.  So, from a practical, empirical point of view, is there any deterministic advantage from higher sampling rates when using essentially perfect reconstruction (BluDave).  *I'd* like to see what various people are finding.  Please correct me if I am wrong, but the introduction of Davina will not *instantly* fix anything about available digital music.  I *think* that Davina's benefits will only be available on new digital recordings, either from microphones or analog masters.
> 
> Let's take an example:
> 
> ...



The first thing to establish is that each of those is taken off the same master tape. 

I have a DVD A with each track at three different resolutions (24bit192kHz, 24bit96kHz, 16bit44.1kHz). I know that they were taken off the same master tape and that is a more worthwhile exercise in comparing them so I will do it through Bul2Dave and report back.


----------



## jscmd2000 (Feb 23, 2018)

This is also available on Tidal, master version... not sure about sample size. If it counts, might be the most affordable option depending on how much you get out of your subscription.


----------



## Triode User

jscmd2000 said:


> This is also available on Tidal, master version... not sure about sample size. If it counts, might be the most affordable option depending on how much you get out of your subscription.



Yes, but still my point is that you have no idea whether these various versions are from the same master tape.


----------



## Triode User

Triode User said:


> The first thing to establish is that each of those is taken off the same master tape.
> 
> I have a DVD A with each track at three different resolutions (24bit192kHz, 24bit96kHz, 16bit44.1kHz). I know that they were taken off the same master tape and that is a more worthwhile exercise in comparing them so I will do it through Bul2Dave and report back.



Ok, I have been listening to the 44.1kHz files compared to the 192kHz files of the same tracks on the below DVDA played through Blu2Dave. I am struggling to find any difference. However through Dave alone I do prefer the 192kHz files.


----------



## jscmd2000

Sorry to butt in... got your point!

+1  don't remember appreciating high res files as much before I got the Dave.  Fantastic.


----------



## Hifi Boy

Triode User said:


> Ok, I have been listening to the 44.1kHz files compared to the 192kHz files of the same tracks on the below DVDA played through Blu2Dave. I am struggling to find any difference. However through Dave alone I do prefer the 192kHz files.


 That would imply that we're reaching the limit of reconstructability. Also, it would imply that the 44.1kHz files have all the necessary information for "perfect" reconstruction of sound. At some point, with a high enough taps count, you won't be able to tell any difference at all, once the sound has been reconstructed, regardless of how high the initial recording sample rate was.


----------



## Rob Watts

There is one very important issue in the mix - non integer sample rate conversion (SRC), going from say 96k to 44.1. SRCs are impossible to make without measurable THD and noise issues, and on their own create timing issues too; so whenever I see the original recording is 96k, I will buy that over the 44.1.

Moreover, existing decimation filters (for going from 96k to 48k say) are also pretty poor, as the use of cheap half band filters are today universal; these create aliasing in the 20-24kHz band, and this damages timing too (by timing I mean transient timing error, the errors that the WTA filter is trying to reduce).

Another issue - going from 24 bit to 16 bit using regular triangular dither degrades depth perception and the only way that I have managed to do this completely transparently (so far) is with extremely aggressive noise shaping at 705/768 kHz - and aggressive noise shaping is categorically not something one can do at 44.1k.

Now with Davina I have designed decimation filters that guarantee aliasing being below -240 dB or so (against today's universal -6dB from half band), so we ought to solve that issue. But two questions remain:

1. For completely transparent decimation and reconstruction "all" we need to do is decimate without any aliasing, and reconstruct with a sinc function filter of sufficient tap length; but the signal must be bandwidth limited to 22 kHz for CD; will the action of bandwidth limiting itself create other sound quality issues? I suspect it won't, and that this issue will be a red herring - but nobody knows for sure. The Davina project will answer this question.

2. Can a method be produced that allows bit reduction without upsetting perception of depth? I have had much better performance in SQ using pseudo Gaussian dither over the usual triangular dither. Would dither that gets closer to ideal Gaussian give better sound quality re depth? Again, another question that Davina will answer.

Given the above issues, I still buy the original master recording over a integer decimated or SRC version.


----------



## Jawed

A lot of this discussion is with the assumption that DAVE's upsampling to 2048FS, the "native speed" of the pulse array, isn't itself introducing problems.

One thing we've learnt since Blu 2 arrived is that the pulse array is very greedy. It has so much quality that it's difficult for anything before it to sound good enough. Remember that Rob was surprised by the large increase in performance that 1 million taps produced. Between the 16FS that Blu 2 outputs and 2048FS that the pulse array uses, there is still another factor of 128x upsampling. 

Blu 2 "fixes" the gross error to achieve "16-bit resolution" with 1 million taps at 16FS, but the pulse array appears to be so greedy that it wants "20-bit resolution" or perhaps "24-bit resolution".

Put another way: potentially we can't hear what the pulse array really sounds like because we don't have 2048FS 24-bit recordings. The 24-bit 16FS input on DAVE is a very tight constraint compared with the pulse array's capability.

Now playing: Tindersticks - Vertrauen II


----------



## simorag

simorag said:


> The Phi have fixed most issues, going very close to reaching a mix of the best qualities of HD800S, LCD4 and Utopia IMHO, with no need for EQ or other tweaks. I can listen at full enjoyment to basically everything, from baroque to heavy metal, with no sense of something lacking, and much more so as the DAVE entered the rig.
> 
> Yet, there is this nasty residual sibilance, and before I give up to blaming the Phi or HD800S, I will rather prefer to try some other routes ... starting at the "source" of the problem



Further to my previous posts on this thread, and based on the kind suggestions and recommendations from other posters, I did some tests on my system, and I am glad to report back here (sorry for the OT ), hoping this is useful to anyone.

In short, the background is that I am greatly enjoying my Abyss Phi and DAVE combo, being a slight occasional sibilance (especially on female voices) the only complaint I have.

My issue with sibilance was there even on my previous rig (Audio GD NOS 11 V2 + HD800S), therefore is not produced by the DAVE or Phi themselves.

The components upstream the DAC are: a Surface Pro 3 Laptop running off batteries > USPCB > ISO Regen + LPS-1 combo > Phasure Lush USB Cable.

Since sibilance is reportedly associated to noise pollution, as confirmed by all the ferrite-fi posts here and SMPS grounding posts on CA, I purchased some ferrites (Topsinius) and the ifi Groundhog for grounding my LPS-1, and I compared the following chains:

1.      Laptop > Lush > DAVE
2.      Laptop > Lush + 10 ferrites > DAVE
3.      Laptop > Lush +20 ferrites (i.e. cable covered from end-to-end) > DAVE
4.      Laptop > ISO Regen + LPS-1 (grounded by Groundhog) > Lush + 20 ferrites > DAVE

The test tracks I used for benchmarking purposes were:

·        Spanish Harlem by Rebecca Pidgeon (Chesky, 176/24)
·        Texas Rangers (idem)
·        Berlin (Stockfish Art of Recording 3, 192/24)
·        Secret Love by Claire Martin (Linn Records, 96/24)
·        Wind Song by Patricia Barber (HD Tracks download, 96/24)

All the tracks above exhibit some passages with annoying sibilance to my ears.

The results are easy to report as long as sibilance alone is concerned: I could not hear any improvement among the 4 configurations reported above.
This was further confirmed afterwards, when I compared my laptop to a dedicated streamer (Innuos Zen MkII) at a shop, and verified that the sibilance was there as well.
Based on this test, I have come to the conclusion that these tracks are inherently sibilant to my ears (which I tend to believe are overly sensitive to sibilance).

Coming to other aspects of the sound presentation, I did notice a slight improvement passing from (1) to (3), i.e. fully ferrited cable with no ISO Regen, in form of a more relaxed sound, blacker background.
I must say that I have no golden ears and these improvements were subtle if any, and could likely be the result of self-bias.

Adding the ISO Regen (powered by the Groundhog-grounded LPS-1) to the chain was more noticeable. The bass was deeper while staying well controlled, the perceived increase of transparency and background blackness were more apparent. Harmonics were also a bit richer.
Again, I would not call it a huge difference and I am no 100% sure I would pick it up immediately in a blind test.

I must say that the benefits of the ISO Regen were much more apparent with my NOS 11, which seem to confirm that the DAVE is more immune to the upstream components than other DACs out there.

The improvement over my laptop source produced by the Innuos Zen MkII streamer was easier to detect.
While the sibilance issues remained there, the overall increase of richness and weight of the music was quite obvious. When coming back to the laptop after listening to the Zen, the music seemed flatter and less alive.

Considering that the Zen MkII should be clearly outperformed by the Zenith MkII or other high end streamers like the Antipodes DX, Auralic Aries G2, etc., I have had the confirmation of what I already knew, i.e. that my laptop, while optimized via various software tweaks, is the weakest link of my present setup.

Unfortunately, my expectations of sibilance reduction coming from source components are now much lower than before, and I believe that once I have completed my chain with a good server, and possibly a Blu 2 (my current priority upgrade), I will need a very smooth headphone like the LCD-4 or HE1000 V2 to complement the Abyss Phi for sibilant-free vocals.


----------



## yakaway

Is there any discussion of the dave being replaced  by a new flagship chord product


----------



## Mython

yakaway said:


> Is there any discussion of the dave being replaced  by a new flagship chord product



Absolutely not.


----------



## Jawed

simorag said:


> Based on this test, I have come to the conclusion that these tracks are inherently sibilant to my ears (which I tend to believe are overly sensitive to sibilance).


Yeah, I would say this is a fact of life, occasionally recordings are just spiky like that.



> The improvement over my laptop source produced by the Innuos Zen MkII streamer was easier to detect.
> While the sibilance issues remained there, the overall increase of richness and weight of the music was quite obvious. When coming back to the laptop after listening to the Zen, the music seemed flatter and less alive.


This seems like useful evidence that a battery-powered laptop is producing some kind of noise that's affecting DAVE.

Normally the theory is that a battery powered source for DAVE cannot cause a mains ground loop, and so there cannot be a current flowing from the source into DAVE that allows common-mode noise (RF noise) to cause a problem.

So either the cabling between your laptop and DAVE is somehow causing common-mode noise to get into DAVE. Or there is ordinary (differential-mode) noise. This is effectively jitter, which DAVE is supposed to have no problem with.

Could it be that the Zen MkII, which is mains powered (is that correct?), introduces a "friendly" mains loop?

It's really confusing, overall.



> Unfortunately, my expectations of sibilance reduction coming from source components are now much lower than before, and I believe that once I have completed my chain with a good server, and possibly a Blu 2 (my current priority upgrade), I will need a very smooth headphone like the LCD-4 or HE1000 V2 to complement the Abyss Phi for sibilant-free vocals.


Is the Phi smoother than HD 800 S for sibilance?

Now playing: Paul Giger - Trogener Chilbilabe


----------



## Triode User (Feb 24, 2018)

yakaway said:


> Is there any discussion of the dave being replaced  by a new flagship chord product



Categorically "NO" and "Years away" paraphrasing earlier posts from the horses mouth.


----------



## yakaway (Feb 24, 2018)

Does anyone know if the older ps audio perfectwave transport  would be any good with the dave or even hugo 2.  I'd love the blu,  I just don't know if my cd collection is that relevant to spend that kind of money.


----------



## yakaway (Feb 24, 2018)

And thank you for clarifying that there is no new product about to supplant the dave. I'm just astounded at the cost of these things, but I guess you get for what ou pay for if you do the research.


----------



## Triode User

yakaway said:


> And thank you for clarifying that there is new product about to supplant the dave. I'm just astounded at the cost of these things, but I guess you get for what ou pay for if you do the research.



Presumably you meant ‘no new product’.


----------



## Jawed

yakaway said:


> Does anyone know if the older ps audio perfectwave transport  would be any good with the dave or even hugo 2.  I'd love the blu,  I just don't know if my cd collection is that relevant to spend that kind of money.


Before I bought DAVE, I expected my mostly "low brow" music to not benefit from a top DAC. It turns out that it makes everything much better. Even stuff recorded badly on cassette tape originally still comes through with a new kind of vigour, honesty, insight and passion. The magic is recorded into the CD, but getting it out of the CD is extremely difficult...

Many would argue that for not much more than the cost of DAVE you can get something a lot better in the shape of Blu 2 + Hugo 2.

It's a risk: you could buy Hugo 2 now, get to know the way Chord DACs make music (it might take a while, they really are that different) and then upgrade by adding the Blu 2.

Or you could go for DAVE then add Blu 2 later.



yakaway said:


> I'm just astounded at the cost of these things, but I guess you get for what ou pay for if you do the research.


See if you can ask a dealer to let you use it at home for a week or two, if you have any doubts about it.

In the end you have to decide what you can stomach. This is stuff that should last 20-30 years. Eventually Chord will release new products that make this sound quality cheaper to buy, but all the signs are that it will be years away.

You could buy Hugo 2 now, while you wait until that miraculous future arrives (who knows when). But then you might accidentally buy a Blu 2. And then sell the Hugo 2 to buy a DAVE. And then think to yourself, "why did I wait so long?"

Now playing: My Morning Jacket - Honest Man


----------



## yakaway (Feb 24, 2018)

I actually own the Hugo 2.
Bought it for its great quality, versatility and also for its relative portability (and I do mean relative). 
I understand the mojo has more coloration and is a good all arounder,  but the price was right so I opted for the Hugo 2. I'm glad I did

I got into this hobby about a month ago and went from HE 560s, to tesla t1 gen 2's. When my Focal Utopias came, I knew the others have to go back! There was just no comparison.

Its been a busy month. Added the stax 009s with the SRM-7tII (which I am not happy with, but that'll have to be discussed elsewhere I suppose), and Abyss 1266's are on their way from Europe (on the list for Phi upgrade).

To keep this short, the Hugo 2 and Utopias are wonderful. I actually thought I was craazy for not being satisifed with the way I was hearing music... Until now.

But to go back to this idea that Blu 2 and Hugo 2 have a better sound than Blu 2 and Dave is just mind blowing. And, yes I will likely be purchasing a Blu 2 at some point soon.

Just bought a PS audio transport (price was right) and so I want to spend a minute with that configuration.

Can anyone offer an explanation to this notion?  Are there multiple articles describing this. Any mention or input from Chord directly? Is this one person's impression or does this have merit? 

If I were a DAVE owner, I'm not quite sure how I'd feel about this. Better performance for less money is great, unless you are the guy who spent more for a dave.

I suppose it will be better from every other source, so it's probably unjustifiable for the cost.


----------



## Hifi Boy

With all that talk about ferrites, made me wonder, is it possible to somehow add them to the next product? Let's say there is a standalone MScaler. Would it be possible to have a built in batch of ferrites, or whatever would offer good isolation right in the product itself?

Then we wouldn't have to make our cables look weird by putting them on the cables.


----------



## zimzim2001 (Feb 24, 2018)

yakaway said:


> I actually own the Hugo 2.
> Bought it for its great quality, versatility and also for its relative portability (and I do mean relative).
> I understand the mojo has more coloration and is a good all arounder,  but the price was right so I opted for the Hugo 2. I'm glad I did
> 
> ...



The point was that Hugo2 + Blu2 is better than Dave alone, not that Hugo2 + Blu2 is better than Dave + Blu2.
Hugo2<Dave<Hugo2+Blu2<Dave+Blu2


----------



## yakaway

I think I acknowledged that we are talking about hugo 2 plus blu 2 giving a better result than blue plus dave,  but only in that instance.


----------



## zimzim2001

yakaway said:


> I think I acknowledged that we are talking about hugo 2 plus blu 2 giving a better result than blue plus dave,  but only in that instance.



Ah, OK.  The key component is the Blu2.


----------



## draytonklammer

yakaway said:


> Is there any discussion of the dave being replaced  by a new flagship chord product



I was worried about the same thing, especially spending this much money.
That being said, the Dave is one of the best purchases I have made in my lifetime thus far.


----------



## etnt

yakaway said:


> But to go back to this idea that Blu 2 and Hugo 2 have a better sound than Blu 2 and Dave is just mind blowing. And, yes I will likely be purchasing a Blu 2 at some point soon.





yakaway said:


> I think I acknowledged that we are talking about hugo 2 plus blu 2 giving a better result than blue plus dave,  but only in that instance.



I'm confused, are you talking about blu2+dave or blu1+dave? And if it's the former, I don't know where you got the above conclusion.


----------



## yakaway

Correct  me if im wrong but I've been clear that we are talking about blu 2 with dave and hugo 2


----------



## etnt

yakaway said:


> Correct  me if im wrong but I've been clear that we are talking about blu 2 with dave and hugo 2


Then nope, bluh2 does not sound better than bludave


----------



## x RELIC x

yakaway said:


> Correct  me if im wrong but I've been clear that we are talking about blu 2 with dave and hugo 2



Could you please point to where you’ve read the Blu mk2+Hugo2 is superior to Blu mk2+DAVE please. I’ve never read this... what I have read are impressions that put Blu mk2+Hugo2 ahead of DAVE alone, but the Blu mk2+DAVE is superior to Blu mk2+Hugo2.


----------



## Triode User

yakaway said:


> I actually own the Hugo 2.
> Bought it for its great quality, versatility and also for its relative portability (and I do mean relative).
> I understand the mojo has more coloration and is a good all arounder,  but the price was right so I opted for the Hugo 2. I'm glad I did
> 
> ...



Where did you get the crazy and incorrect idea that Blu2 and Hugo2 sound better than Blu2 and Dave?


----------



## simorag

Jawed said:


> Is the Phi smoother than HD 800 S for sibilance?



Phi has a more extended and grain free treble compared to HD800S. That said, it is not smoother as long as sibilance is concerned IMO.

Yesterday I made another test.
I put the DAVE in DSD+ mode and played the playlist above with HQPlayer converting the PCM files to DSD256 (unfortunately my laptop can't handle DSD512). I am not sure whether PCM or DSD version sound better (need to spend more time on that, and don't want to re-open this old debate here), but for sure the sibilants were smoother with DSD.


----------



## draytonklammer

What's the difference between using PCM or DSD mode on this DAC with FLAC files? (if there's a difference)


----------



## yakaway (Feb 25, 2018)

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-blu-mk-ii-digital-cd-transport.22848/reviews#review-19675

Except;
I will not be replacing my BluDAVE with a BluHugo2 (I am addicted to the BluDAVE sound), but the BluHugo2 is (remarkably) a huge step above the DAVE.


----------



## etnt

yakaway said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-blu-mk-ii-digital-cd-transport.22848/reviews#review-19675


Which correspond to what the rest of us here are saying


----------



## yakaway

Really,  you were saying that... interesting


----------



## etnt

As zimzim2001 summarized
Hugo2<Dave<Hugo2+Blu2<Dave+Blu2


----------



## Jawed

Hifi Boy said:


> With all that talk about ferrites, made me wonder, is it possible to somehow add them to the next product? Let's say there is a standalone MScaler. Would it be possible to have a built in batch of ferrites, or whatever would offer good isolation right in the product itself?


DAVE is where the problem is, since RF noise affects the analogue circuitry (pulse array and output amplifier) causing sound quality problems.

Blu 2 has some filtering on its BNC outputs. It's just not enough at very high frequencies (10s of MHz to a few GHz seems to be the problem range).

The Canare 12G BNC cables (made for 4K video, which is why they're cheap!) appear to be the best naked BNC cables as people are finding it hard (impossible?) to improve the sound quality with yet more ferrites put on them.

Ferrites definitely make a difference on most BNC cables connecting Blu 2 and DAVE (according to reports on HeadFi) but I don't know of an explanation as to why the naked Canare cable is working so well, since in theory Blu 2 is putting common-mode noise into the cable, but apparently that noise isn't getting into DAVE.

There's still a sense that the Canare cables aren't able to remove all of the problems caused by a USB source feeding Blu 2. It may be that some of these problems aren't due to common-mode RF noise and so ferrites (or a good cable) cannot solve the problem. 



> Then we wouldn't have to make our cables look weird by putting them on the cables.


I don't know why people think the look of a cable is a problem: I have 66 covering the full length of my USB cable and 40 on the mains cable... If it was actually upsetting then you could put a jacket on the cable:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B073RHL84X

Now playing: Ted Sirota's Rebel Souls - Propaganda


----------



## Crgreen

I’m no technical expert, but I’m minded to agree with you. Preventing, or limiting RF into the DAVE does improve sound quality by, for example, using a battery supply. I note that Rob considers that optical provides the best sound quality, where RF isn’t an issue.

Ditto with the Blu 2, though I found the issue wasn’t just with USB into the the Blu 2 but with CD also. Ferrites mitigate the problem, but do not eradicate it. Indeed, I wonder why no-one seems concerned that with a product at this price-point, the need for ferrites suggests things are not as they should be. I accept however, that I’m in a minority of one.


----------



## rayl

I raised this question once before but did not see any thoughts posted.

We theorize that it is RF noise from the inherent activity of blu2’s fgpa. 

Yet we say 12G cable is better naked than RG59 cable naked. Yet 12G is lower loss and should pass more RF.

A few months back, I thought someone observed that longer basic cable, which I read to be lower quality/higher loss, was better. That at least matches the theorized source of RF being in the Blu2 whereas the 12G superiority seems to contradict the basic hypothesis as to the source of RF. 

Any insights as to this seeming contradiction?


----------



## Jawed

Crgreen said:


> Indeed, I wonder why no-one seems concerned that with a product at this price-point, the need for ferrites suggests things are not as they should be. I accept however, that I’m in a minority of one.


I agree, but I think the problem is with DAVE. Other (all?) DACs throughout the history of hi-fi also have this problem as far as I can tell.

I think the absolute quality of the 20 element pulse array in DAVE is so high that it makes it really obvious when there is a problem. Maybe Rob will tackle this problem more directly with the power pulse array amplifiers.

Given that the Canare 12G cable is so cheap and seemingly so good, it would appear to be the top choice for people who dislike ferrites when connecting Blu 2.



rayl said:


> Any insights as to this seeming contradiction?


I'm not aware of any. It's all just guesses. All that people can do is experiment. 

The BluDAVE system doesn't have a known good baseline, unlike with DAVE where just an optical connection and headphones cannot cause electrical RF noise to be injected by the digital source/cable feeding DAVE.

I think there are people who report that an optical connection into DAVE can still show differences amongst the digital sources. It's quite rare that anyone uses optical into DAVE, and so I don't think there's meaningful consensus on this.

Now playing: Movietone - Songs


----------



## Hifi Boy

Rob Watts said:


> There is one very important issue in the mix - non integer sample rate conversion (SRC), going from say 96k to 44.1. SRCs are impossible to make without measurable THD and noise issues, and on their own create timing issues too; so whenever I see the original recording is 96k, I will buy that over the 44.1.
> 
> Moreover, existing decimation filters (for going from 96k to 48k say) are also pretty poor, as the use of cheap half band filters are today universal; these create aliasing in the 20-24kHz band, and this damages timing too (by timing I mean transient timing error, the errors that the WTA filter is trying to reduce).
> 
> ...


 The big question that I have regarding this issue then is the following one. Do you think that, in your opinion of course, it will be possible at some point, with appropriate technology, to extract the same level of musical reproduction from 44.1kHz recordings, as from hirez recordings?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Hifi Boy said:


> The big question that I have regarding this issue then is the following one. Do you think that, in your opinion of course, it will be possible at some point, with appropriate technology, to extract the same level of musical reproduction from 44.1kHz recordings, as from hirez recordings?



Blu MKII comes mightily close given the feedback of a number of contributors here.


----------



## seeteeyou

Hifi Boy said:


> With all that talk about ferrites, made me wonder, is it possible to somehow add them to the next product? Let's say there is a standalone MScaler. Would it be possible to have a built in batch of ferrites, or whatever would offer good isolation right in the product itself?


Standalone M-Scaler might (or might not?) have USB output so that even non-Chord DACs with 768kHz USB inputs could take advantage of the power of 1,015,808 taps.

In other words, it could potentially act as both USB Host and USB Slave simultaneously since both input and output are present.

And then the question remains, would Chord allow the USB output of that future standalone M-Scaler to be recorded by a computer or could that particular feature be reserved for (more expensive) DAVINA? We still wanna enjoy the power of 1,015,808 taps while we're traveling with Hugo 2, and that could only be done if we're able to record those 705.6kHz / 768kHz *.wav files via USB.


BTW, right now there's only one solution out there (other than products from Chord) that's capable of accepting 768kHz via coaxial inputs

http://www.comtrue-inc.com/index.php/products


> 2 playback port, and 1 record port





> RECORD: 8-channel I2S, 6-channel DSD, 2-channel SPDIF





> PCM support up to 768K/32bit through USB, I2S, SPDIF ports.


So far I could only find one commercial product from Micromega that's including ComTrue CT7301-P

http://www.comtrue-inc.com/images/eichhornia_7301_C.pdf#page=2
http://www.micromega.com/downloads/white-paper-UK-v2.pdf#page=6


> A SPDIF 32 bit/768KHz coaxial input which is insulated with a transformer.





> A SPDIF gateway receiver with SRC ComTrue CT7301 converts all the signals from different sources, SPDIF, DSA and I2S in I2S sent via the CPLD to the Analog Devices SHARC processor of which controls the digital volume on 32bits/word and also MARS (Room and speaker frequency response correction).


----------



## Crgreen (Feb 25, 2018)

But assuming the output of the m-scaler could be sent via USB, would that work on the DAVE’s USB input — can the DAVE only make use of the m-scaler output via BNC?


----------



## Hifi Boy

seeteeyou said:


> And then the question remains, would Chord allow the USB output of that future standalone M-Scaler to be recorded by a computer or could that particular feature be reserved for (more expensive) DAVINA? We still wanna enjoy the power of 1,015,808 taps while we're traveling with Hugo 2, and that could only be done if we're able to record those 705.6kHz / 768kHz *.wav files via USB.


 This sounds quite interesting, but I'm not sure whether it would work. Not saying that it wouldn't, just saying that it sounds incredible. To good to be true even!

That would mean that it would be possible to run any song through Blu2, record it and then either sell it on hirez websites or stream it on Tidal. That would mean that pretty much nobody would need to buy a Blu2 to enjoy the highest possible sound reproduction that Chord has to offer. Just buy a Hugo 2 and you're golden.

Let's see what Rob has to say about it.


----------



## rayl

Hifi Boy said:


> This sounds quite interesting, but I'm not sure whether it would work. Not saying that it wouldn't, just saying that it sounds incredible. To good to be true even!
> 
> That would mean that it would be possible to run any song through Blu2, record it and then either sell it on hirez websites or stream it on Tidal. That would mean that pretty much nobody would need to buy a Blu2 to enjoy the highest possible sound reproduction that Chord has to offer. Just buy a Hugo 2 and you're golden.
> 
> Let's see what Rob has to say about it.



Bits are bits. You can even solve for the Mscaler coeffs via linear algebra (modulo dithering, though whether that results in a hard lattice problem or not depends on the dithering). 

But the value is to have something that runs real time so it can work with all kinds of content like streamed content, which is hard to precompute. And our purchases find future R&D!


----------



## Jawed

Crgreen said:


> But assuming the output of the m-scaler could be sent via USB, would that work on the DAVE’s USB input — can the DAVE only make use of the m-scaler output via BNC?


DAVE's USB input supports 705.6KHz and 768KHz, both at 24-bit and 32-bit, so M scaler could have a USB output to feed DAVE. Mojo and Hugo 2 also support these formats.

It's a shame that Blu 2 doesn't have a streaming USB output, that was a missed opportunity. But it's worth remembering that Blu 2 didn't have a USB input originally, that was a late design change.

Now playing: Madder Rose - Beautiful John


----------



## Crgreen

I suppose my point was that as I understand it — and I may not — the Blu 2 replicates a significant part of the initial processing of the DAVE, and its current output goes into the DAVE at a later stage of DAVE’s processing. Therefore, would putting that output into DAVE via USB at the earlier stage actually work? I’ve no idea.

I’m not sure that the late addition of a USB input to Blu 2 is of much value to those who already have a Blu 2. It’s hardly likely that Chord will change the unit to incorporate a USB output, and make it retrofittable.


----------



## Jawed

Crgreen said:


> I suppose my point was that as I understand it — and I may not — the Blu 2 replicates a significant part of the initial processing of the DAVE, and its current output goes into the DAVE at a later stage of DAVE’s processing. Therefore, would putting that output into DAVE via USB at the earlier stage actually work? I’ve no idea.


The BNC and USB inputs both follow the same path (also followed by AES and optical).

The first step of the path is the WTA stage 1 filter, which accepts 1FS, 2FS, 4FS, 8FS and 16FS sample rates (FS is either 44.1KHz or 48KHz) and outputs at 16FS. When the WTA stage 1 filter sees that the music is already at 16FS, there is no upsampling to do. So it acts as a pass through.

So it wouldn't matter whether the source is USB or BNC, DAVE treats 16FS digital data the same.

Now playing: His Name is Alive - The Well


----------



## seeteeyou (Feb 25, 2018)

Hifi Boy said:


> This sounds quite interesting, but I'm not sure whether it would work. Not saying that it wouldn't, just saying that it sounds incredible. To good to be true even!


Rob already stated that's gonna be part of DAVINA for sure, though we'll have to wait and see how that would work for future standalone M-Scaler

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-556#post-13450235


Rob Watts said:


> Davina is bi-directional on the USB; it can receive and transmit data at the same time.





Hifi Boy said:


> That would mean that it would be possible to run any song through Blu2, record it and then either sell it on hirez websites or stream it on Tidal. That would mean that pretty much nobody would need to buy a Blu2 to enjoy the highest possible sound reproduction that Chord has to offer. Just buy a Hugo 2 and you're golden.
> 
> Let's see what Rob has to say about it.


Rob did mention that DAVINA should be aimed for something like a mastering studio, therefore the price tag could be adjusted accordingly.


Ideally we could convince Rob and/or John to release a "truly" standalone M-Scaler in a sense that's only coming with USB port(s) for connecting hard drives or SSDs etc. We just copy some files to those drives first, then we'll plug them into that standalone M-Scaler and wait until they're processed with 1,015,808 taps. Finally those 705.6kHz / 768kHz *.wav files could be played anywhere we want, we just need USB DACs that are capable of accepting 768kHz while both ES9038PRO and AK4497EQ etc. (in addition to DAVE / Mojo / Hugo 2 / Quetest) are good to go. Hard drives are so affordable these days, even 6TB ones would cost less than $200. About $250 for 8TB and $350 for 10TB respectively.

Maybe not everyone could afford that future standalone M-Scaler, but that wouldn't prevent us to share the costs with a few buddies. In other words, M-Scaler could potentially be such a versatile product that wouldn't be limited to only sit between a source component and a DAC. Chord could also put M-Scaler inside music servers with x86 processors while acting as Roon server, or maybe they could also make something else like Roon Ready endpoints with ARM processors. Since they've got M-Scaler built right in already, the performance will surely smoke anything we could get from Antipodes / Auralic / Aurender / Bricasti / dCS / Fidata / Innuos / Lumin / Melco / Naim / Rockna / Sonore / SOtM etc. Not to mention that we don't even need to pay for those expensive clock upgrades at all, SOtM sCLK-OCX10 and Mutec REF 10 would cost $3,500 and $3,595 respectively.

It's really up to Chord to decide how that would be implemented since there are plenty of choices IMHO.


----------



## Crgreen

seeteeyou said:


> Rob already stated that's gonna be part of DAVINA for sure, though we'll have to wait and see how that would work for future standalone M-Scaler
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-556#post-13450235
> Rob did mention that DAVINA should be aimed for something like a mastering studio, therefore the price tag could be adjusted accordingly.
> ...



I’ve no idea if the Davina “project” (as Rob calls it) will ever see the light of day as a commercial product as distinct from a useful area of research, how much it would cost, and how exactly I would share it with my buddies.( unless they lived with me).


----------



## draytonklammer (Feb 25, 2018)

For FLAC files is there any difference between PCM and DSD mode on the Dave?

I know they're different formats, I am just curious if it only applies to it's respective file type or if it's global for all files somehow.


----------



## ray-dude

draytonklammer said:


> For FLAC files is there any difference between PCM and DSD mode on the Dave?
> 
> I know they're different formats, I am just curious if it only applies to it's respective file type or if it's global for all files somehow.



On the DAVE, PCM+ mode is distinct from DSD+ mode.  Both will play PCM (and FLAC as compressed PCM) and DSD, but each is optimized for one or the other.   I recall Rob mentioning that he put a lot of effort into getting an auto switch between the paths, but couldn't make it all fit.

I can hear a difference between the two, but it is the difference between awesome and just a hair awesomer.  I used to occasionally switch back and forth when doing critical listening with my DSD content, but now I just leave it on PCM+ and enjoy the music.


----------



## rayl

ray-dude said:


> On the DAVE, PCM+ mode is distinct from DSD+ mode.  Both will play PCM (and FLAC as compressed PCM) and DSD, but each is optimized for one or the other.   I recall Rob mentioning that he put a lot of effort into getting an auto switch between the paths, but couldn't make it all fit.
> 
> I can hear a difference between the two, but it is the difference between awesome and just a hair awesomer.  I used to occasionally switch back and forth when doing critical listening with my DSD content, but now I just leave it on PCM+ and enjoy the music.



If you watch movies through the DAVE as well, you will find that DSD mode has lower latency so virtually unnoticeable lip sync issues.  It's a good workaround when music quality isn't as important but you still want to use your audio rig.


----------



## draytonklammer

Thanks for the thoughts you guys.
For general music files would you guys prefer PCM+ or DSD mode? From what I am gathering it seems that PCM+ mode should be my pick.


----------



## MacedonianHero

draytonklammer said:


> Thanks for the thoughts you guys.
> For general music files would you guys prefer PCM+ or DSD mode? From what I am gathering it seems that PCM+ mode should be my pick.



Unless you're playing DSD files.


----------



## draytonklammer

MacedonianHero said:


> Unless you're playing DSD files.



Cool, thanks. Going to be trying DSD tonight if I get the time.


----------



## draytonklammer

MacedonianHero said:


> Unless you're playing DSD files.



Sorry to double post so quickly.
Do you by chance know how to play dsf files on a PC?


----------



## MacedonianHero

draytonklammer said:


> Sorry to double post so quickly.
> Do you by chance know how to play dsf files on a PC?



I'm using Audirvana 3 and my iMac via USB (Audioquest Coffee cable). You need a player like Audirvana that can play dsf files.


----------



## etnt

draytonklammer said:


> Sorry to double post so quickly.
> Do you by chance know how to play dsf files on a PC?


foobar2000 with plugins (https://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/files/foo_input_sacd/) (http://www.audinst.com/en/faqs/2431);
or JRiver


----------



## Rob Watts

Hifi Boy said:


> The big question that I have regarding this issue then is the following one. Do you think that, in your opinion of course, it will be possible at some point, with appropriate technology, to extract the same level of musical reproduction from 44.1kHz recordings, as from hirez recordings?


My guess at this stage is yes - in terms of musical reproduction - in this I mean their will always be SQ differences based on AB tests - but I think the musicality consequences will be small. But we will know for sure with the Davina project!


----------



## 474194 (Feb 26, 2018)

ignore..


----------



## rgs9200m

Just my 2 cents, but many of the so-called hi-rez PCM files sound more shrill and fatiguing than the regular old redbook CDs I rip.

 This is true on my DAVE, but also on my Hugo TT and classic Hugo that preceded it. It's always been a mystery to me why this is, but that's what I hear. 

The hi-rez files are almost too clean and shiny sounding. DAVE does a remarkable job with my files ripped from decades-old CDs. It's a miracle in my book. (DAVE weaves straw into gold.)


----------



## etnt

rgs9200m said:


> (DAVE weaves straw into gold.)


Rob is Rumpelstiltskin?


----------



## draytonklammer

etnt said:


> Rob is Rumpelstiltskin?



He might as well be.


----------



## Hifi Boy

Rob Watts said:


> My guess at this stage is yes - in terms of musical reproduction - in this I mean their will always be SQ differences based on AB tests - but I think the musicality consequences will be small. But we will know for sure with the Davina project!


Great, thanks for letting us know. We're all interested in music anyway. Whether there are any differences which won't change our perception of the music, is less important to audiophile community.

In other words, guys, enjoy your hirez music for now, because at a certain point of time, it won't matter anymore. Whatever you put through this future product will sound "perfect".

Get your MP3s ready!


----------



## britneedadvice (Feb 26, 2018)

Now and again I get 'motivated' to revisit old sites/threads just to 'catch-up'
this review interested me for several reasons:-
https://audiobacon.net/2018/02/15/w...headphone-amplifier-15000-musical-indulgence/
I couldn't believe there were no comments,so I posted one!(unusual for me!)
I then went back to the 15th Feb(date of review) on this thread to note if there had been any response to this review!
Interestingly not! However,there has been several comments since that date which make this review relevant.
One question concerning the use of the Abyss Phi(with the DAVE) and another questioning the need for an external Amp instead of the DAVE!
So, perhaps the review may provoke some response here which I would be interested to note??


----------



## Hifi Boy

I've read it several times before actually and its once of the nicest reviews out there in my opinion.


----------



## statfi

Rob Watts said:


> their will always be SQ differences based on AB tests


Could you give a quick technical explanation as to why.  E.g., due to "the difference of leakage of the appropriate antialiasing filters into the audible band", or whatever the real reason is.


----------



## Rob Watts

I am less worried about the decimation aliasing issue - that I can and already have eliminated that. I am more concerned about the interpolation issue, which in principle can be fixed by getting closer to an ideal sinc function; I suspect the bandwidth limitation needed for sampling theory will prove to be a red herring; I guess I am most worried about the bit reduction to 16 bits for CD upsetting depth perception.


----------



## hmartin (Feb 26, 2018)

Rob Watts said:


> I am less worried about the decimation aliasing issue - that I can and already have eliminated that. I am more concerned about the interpolation issue, which in principle can be fixed by getting closer to an ideal sinc function; I suspect the bandwidth limitation needed for sampling theory will prove to be a red herring; I guess I am most worried about the bit reduction to 16 bits for CD upsetting depth perception.


What you would expect is that the bandwidth limiting filter needs to be quite a bit simpler than the interpolation filter. This due to that the high frequency content is much lower level hence the aliasing when bandwidth limiting is smaller for a given filter kernel. What I think will be interesting is how much better performance you get using a bandwidth limiting filter close to a SINC function rather than, for example, an IIR filter.


----------



## Jawed

britneedadvice said:


> Now and again I get 'motivated' to revisit old sites/threads just to 'catch-up'
> this review interested me for several reasons:-
> https://audiobacon.net/2018/02/15/w...headphone-amplifier-15000-musical-indulgence/
> I couldn't believe there were no comments,so I posted one!(unusual for me!)
> ...


Rob has suggested that his (still being designed) power pulse array amplifier(s) will be a worthwhile improvement over DAVE for difficult to drive headphones. 20W per channel into 8 ohms is about the minimum power level (the amps are primarily for speakers), so it's a question of patience...

Now playing: The Durutti Column - The First Aspect of the Same Thing


----------



## Hifi Boy

Jawed said:


> Rob has suggested that his (still being designed) power pulse array amplifier(s) will be a worthwhile improvement over DAVE for difficult to drive headphones. 20W per channel into 8 ohms is about the minimum power level (the amps are primarily for speakers), so it's a question of patience...
> 
> Now playing: The Durutti Column - The First Aspect of the Same Thing


Difficult to drive headphones? So, this amplifier will indeed be both a speaker and a proper headphone amp as well?


----------



## jarnopp

Hifi Boy said:


> Difficult to drive headphones? So, this amplifier will indeed be both a speaker and a proper headphone amp as well?



It may or may not be, but you can drive headphones off the speaker taps of an amplifier, usually with an adapter of some sorts (like HiFiMan made for the HE-6) or directly from solid state amps, if you have very insensitive headphones and are careful with the volume.


----------



## Hifi Boy

jarnopp said:


> It may or may not be, but you can drive headphones off the speaker taps of an amplifier, usually with an adapter of some sorts (like HiFiMan made for the HE-6) or directly from solid state amps, if you have very insensitive headphones and are careful with the volume.


Yup, makes sense, I'm still hoping its gonna be a headphone amp as well.


----------



## astrostar59

jarnopp said:


> It may or may not be, but you can drive headphones off the speaker taps of an amplifier, usually with an adapter of some sorts (like HiFiMan made for the HE-6) or directly from solid state amps, if you have very insensitive headphones and are careful with the volume.



I would not attempt that. You have little protection for the HPs, so could blow them. The residual noise off a power amp may be enough to ruin the S/N ratio. You need as little as .5 watts of power to drive most HPs to ear splitting levels. Then the power amp is expecting a load of 8 ohms, maybe 16 max. Your HPs could be 300 or more, so you may get shifts in the FR. Plus many other reasons. Short answer - bad idea IMO.


----------



## minibox

My previous Dac was a Berkeley Alpha Dac Series 2 using the Alpha USB. I lived happily with this combination for quite a long time but recently purchased a dave, which does many things better than the Berkeley. Needless to say, I'm happy with my purchase. My question for the community is whether there are advantages to using the Alpha USB with the Dave for anything 192 kHz 24 bit and below? I'm not familiar with the different types of clocks and line drivers used in the Dave vs. the Alpha USB. Source is an Aurender n100h. I would be using the AES output of the Alpha USB.


----------



## Jawed

The AES input on DAVE doesn't have any galvanic isolation. So if your AES cable is properly constructed with the shield connected to pin 1 at only one end, and you plug that end into your Alpha USB, then you should get good sound quality with DAVE, even though the AES input on DAVE is generally regarded as the worst input. Common mode RF noise cannot get into DAVE with this configuration, since the differential (balanced) AES signalling cancels that noise.

If you have an optical output on a streamer or computer, you should try connecting that to DAVE using the optical cable that came with DAVE. Make sure it's the only connection to DAVE when you're listening, to ensure perfect galvanic isolation. If you can do this, then this is the "benchmark" sound quality that you can use to compare with the AES feed from the Alpha USB or with the USB input on DAVE itself.

DAVE's USB input has good galvanic isolation, but it's not perfect. In theory the Alpha USB with a correctly configured AES cable will be better. Unfortunately it seems AES cables are often constructed with pin 1 connected to the shield at both ends of the cable, which then causes RF problems in the DAC (whether it's DAVE or any other DAC).

Now playing: Suzanne Vega - Tom's Diner


----------



## minibox

Jawed said:


> The AES input on DAVE doesn't have any galvanic isolation. So if your AES cable is properly constructed with the shield connected to pin 1 at only one end, and you plug that end into your Alpha USB, then you should get good sound quality with DAVE, even though the AES input on DAVE is generally regarded as the worst input. Common mode RF noise cannot get into DAVE with this configuration, since the differential (balanced) AES signalling cancels that noise.
> 
> If you have an optical output on a streamer or computer, you should try connecting that to DAVE using the optical cable that came with DAVE. Make sure it's the only connection to DAVE when you're listening, to ensure perfect galvanic isolation. If you can do this, then this is the "benchmark" sound quality that you can use to compare with the AES feed from the Alpha USB or with the USB input on DAVE itself.
> 
> ...


I could do optical out of my oppo-105 with files from an Lacie external drive.


----------



## Jawed

minibox said:


> I could do optical out of my oppo-105 with files from an Lacie external drive.


Sweet, sounds like you have everything you need to work out what's best.

If you're running speakers you might want to spend time tweaking your system setup with just the optical configuration. That's really down to whether optical/DAVE is a lot different from your Berkeley setup. If the difference is large, then it's worth spending a week or two getting used to it, tweaking the setup and continuing to listen to make sure you're happy.

Then see if you can get USB or AES to sound as good. Who knows, maybe the optical sounds barely different...

Given that it seems your previous setup was limited to 192KHz/24-bit by the Alpha USB, being limited the same way by the optical input is probably no big deal to you. So, you might be tempted to switch to optical and forget about USB and AES!

(I wish someone had persuaded me to start using my Chord DACs via optical back at the end of 2015, it would have brought me more magic much sooner!)

Now playing: Manuel Galbán/Ry Cooder - Bolero sonambulo


----------



## WilliamWykeham

Just got my hands on a DAVE and it's the clear winner vs. Yggy for classical - I'm listening to a HIP recording of Haydn, Festetics Quartet's Complete String Quartets, which never sounded quite right on the Yggy, but with DAVE it's perfect. I could listen to this all night. Pop/Rock/Indie/Rap though, think I'm liking the Yggy more.  Father John Misty through the DAVE seems a little boring, something I never feel with the Yggy. Same listening to Charles Bradley. And I can only keep one.. this is going to be a really tough decision. Wonder if my ears will get used to DAVE for pop.


----------



## draytonklammer (Mar 1, 2018)

WilliamWykeham said:


> Just got my hands on a DAVE and it's the clear winner vs. Yggy for classical - I'm listening to a HIP recording of Haydn, Festetics Quartet's Complete String Quartets, which never sounded quite right on the Yggy, but with DAVE it's perfect. I could listen to this all night. Pop/Rock/Indie/Rap though, think I'm liking the Yggy more.  Father John Misty through the DAVE seems a little boring, something I never feel with the Yggy. Same listening to Charles Bradley. And I can only keep one.. this is going to be a really tough decision. Wonder if my ears will get used to DAVE for pop.



Interesting view from another Yggdrasil owner.
I am currently selling mine and did not have the same choice as you. For me the Dave bested the Yggy in everything, along with 5-6 friends I had A/B with me.


----------



## SCBob

WilliamWykeham said:


> Just got my hands on a DAVE and it's the clear winner vs. Yggy for classical - I'm listening to a HIP recording of Haydn, Festetics Quartet's Complete String Quartets, which never sounded quite right on the Yggy, but with DAVE it's perfect. I could listen to this all night. Pop/Rock/Indie/Rap though, think I'm liking the Yggy more.  Father John Misty through the DAVE seems a little boring, something I never feel with the Yggy. Same listening to Charles Bradley. And I can only keep one.. this is going to be a really tough decision. Wonder if my ears will get used to DAVE for pop.


First world problem!


----------



## MacedonianHero

draytonklammer said:


> Interesting view from another Yggdrasil owner.
> I am currently selling myself and did not have the same choice as you. For me the Dave bested the Yggy in everything, along with 5-6 friends I had A/B with me.



It's not even close to my ears in favour of the DAVE. That said, the Yggy offers good value considering the price point.


----------



## WilliamWykeham (Mar 1, 2018)

draytonklammer said:


> Interesting view from another Yggdrasil owner.
> I am currently selling mine and did not have the same choice as you. For me the Dave bested the Yggy in everything, along with 5-6 friends I had A/B with me.



Written after only an hour of first hearing it, so very first impressions. On further listening I'm finding non-classical music to be highly variable based on the recording. Frank Ocean's Blond sounded fantastic, as did a Fiery Furnaces album and especially Elvis Costello's My Aim is True.  Starting to feel like the answer is forming to keep DAVE (and hope my girlfriend never finds out how much I paid for it)


----------



## draytonklammer

Hey, does anyone know if the Dave has a line out?

For example, I want to be able to have my fiance listen to music via another amp (different headphones/different volume) but I want to use my Abyss with the headphone out on the Dave with Dave's volume.


----------



## Triode User (Mar 2, 2018)

draytonklammer said:


> Hey, does anyone know if the Dave has a line out?
> 
> For example, I want to be able to have my fiance listen to music via another amp (different headphones/different volume) but I want to use my Abyss with the headphone out on the Dave with Dave's volume.



No it doesn’t have any fixed line out.  All outputs, RCA, XLR and the headphone jack, are controlled by the volume control. Dave can be set to DAC mode but all this does is to set all the outlets to -3dB.


----------



## etnt

draytonklammer said:


> Hey, does anyone know if the Dave has a line out?
> 
> For example, I want to be able to have my fiance listen to music via another amp (different headphones/different volume) but I want to use my Abyss with the headphone out on the Dave with Dave's volume.



Refer to the manual. balanced xlr, unbalanced rca but


> DAC Mode
> Dave can be used with the inbuilt volume control to drive an amplifier directly but should you wish to use it with a preamplifier or AV amplifier it can be switched to DAC Mode.
> 
> Simultaneously pressing both left and right buttons on the top panel will activate DAC mode and this will be indicated on the bottom right of the display. DAC mode fixes the output level to 3dB (3V unbalanced, 6V balanced line level output) and deactivates the volume control along with some remote control functions. This mode is remembered even when the power is turned off.
> ...


----------



## TheAttorney

Triode User said:


> No it doesn’t have any fixed line out.  All outputs, RCA, XLR and the headphone jack, are controlled by the volume control. Dave can be started up in DAC mode but all this does is to set (all) the outlets to a particular level. The setting is overridden if the volume control is subsequently adjusted and that adjustment applies to all outputs simultaneously.



Well.my DAVE in DAC mode stays at a fixed -3db irrespective of its volume control. So, unless I've missed something, DAVE definitely does have a fixed line output. 
It's probabbly a moot point anyway, as DAVE's volume control is very transparent, so you could consider even the pre-amp mode to be a fixed line output that is infinitely adjustable to perfectly match the input sensitivity of your amp.


----------



## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> Well.my DAVE in DAC mode stays at a fixed -3db irrespective of its volume control. So, unless I've missed something, DAVE definitely does have a fixed line output.
> It's probabbly a moot point anyway, as DAVE's volume control is very transparent, so you could consider even the pre-amp mode to be a fixed line output that is infinitely adjustable to perfectly match the input sensitivity of your amp.



I was trying to do three things at once and clearly I cannot multitask. I have corrected my post!!

Agreed about your comment though with regard to just selecting the volume to give whatever output level suits the amplifier. That's all the DAC setting does anyway but to a set output.


----------



## Jawed

WilliamWykeham said:


> Written after only an hour of first hearing it, so very first impressions. On further listening I'm finding non-classical music to be highly variable based on the recording. Frank Ocean's Blond sounded fantastic, as did a Fiery Furnaces album and especially Elvis Costello's My Aim is True.  Starting to feel like the answer is forming to keep DAVE (and hope my girlfriend never finds out how much I paid for it)


DAVE remasters your entire record collection: everything should sound different. Sometimes shockingly so...

Now playing: Piano Magic - I am the Sub-librarian


----------



## rgs9200m

DAVE boring? Blasphemy. That's the last thing I would say about the DAVE. I've run out of good adjectives to say about DAVE. I need a new Thesaurus.
It may need a little break-in. Just keep listening.


----------



## tunes

draytonklammer said:


> I was worried about the same thing, especially spending this much money.
> That being said, the Dave is one of the best purchases I have made in my lifetime thus far.


Just ordered a DAVE (so excited) and wondering if the stock DAVE power cord should be replaced for the claimed improvement with the likes of Shunyata power cables??  If the difference is marginal would rather save my money.


----------



## Beolab (Mar 3, 2018)

*Group Buy 

Clearer Audio Silver Reference Coax digital 

( Oppertunity for DAVE + Blu II owners ) *

If we order 5-10 pairs 2x BNC from Clearer Audio ,then Darren will give us 20% in discount at checkout.

( If we buy more than 10 pairs then he can stretch it slightly more, but he said that the margin is not that high because of the already fairly low price, and because of the expensive 6N silver he is using. )

When we have reached 5 or more members who are willing to go ahead and purchase
2x CA Silver Reference BNC - BNC, then i will contact Darren at Clearer Audio and then afterwords each of you can
e-mail Darren enquiries@cleareraudio.com with the lenght you need and your other details to complete the purchase with 20% in discount.

Im hoping to e-mail Darren later next week if there is a intrest in a group buy.

Please PM If you are interested.

I have set the deadline until next
Friday 9/3-2018

Members that has shown intrest for a group buy is:

@Beolab
@Clive101
@adyc
@nbarnard36


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> Just ordered a DAVE (so excited) and wondering if the stock DAVE power cord should be replaced for the claimed improvement with the likes of Shunyata power cables??  If the difference is marginal would rather save my money.



Well my response is so predictable it is boring. Save your money and put it in a Blu2 fund. 

Sure, if you want a "100% shielded low-resistance power cord system" (to quote from Shunyata) then buy some Belden shielded 2.5mm2 cable and put your own plugs on which is what I have done where some longer cable runs were needed.

But then I am a killjoy.


----------



## AndrewOld (Mar 3, 2018)

tunes said:


> Just ordered a DAVE (so excited) and wondering if the stock DAVE power cord should be replaced for the claimed improvement with the likes of Shunyata power cables??  If the difference is marginal would rather save my money.



Just get your DAVE and be happy, listen to it, enjoy your music. Although some of its quality is evident the moment you first hear it, other aspects of the improvement it makes take a while for you to become aware of. Among these is that you become aware after a while that you are much less aware of your hi-fi.


----------



## erik701

tunes said:


> Just ordered a DAVE (so excited) and wondering if the stock DAVE power cord should be replaced for the claimed improvement with the likes of Shunyata power cables??  If the difference is marginal would rather save my money.



I've got Shunyata Sigma Digital cable connected to the DAVE and Shunyata Sigma Analog to my Moon 430HA. These cables are great. I was able to hear improvement immediately at first listening session with these power cables. You can PM me, if you have more questions. I'm also considering sale of both cables, because I'm thinking about some better power conditioning solution for my whole rig, but for sure I will come back to Shunyata again in the future.


----------



## tunes

erik701 said:


> I've got Shunyata Sigma Digital cable connected to the DAVE and Shunyata Sigma Analog to my Moon 430HA. These cables are great. I was able to hear improvement immediately at first listening session with these power cables. You can PM me, if you have more questions. I'm also considering sale of both cables, because I'm thinking about some better power conditioning solution for my whole rig, but for sure I will come back to Shunyata again in the future.


What were the immediate changes in sound that you could perceive?  With the noise floor so low already with the DAVE, it is surprising that there was a big difference with just a cleaner mains supply.


----------



## Triode User (Mar 4, 2018)

erik701 said:


> I've got Shunyata Sigma Digital cable connected to the DAVE and Shunyata Sigma Analog to my Moon 430HA. These cables are great. I was able to hear improvement immediately at first listening session with these power cables. You can PM me, if you have more questions. I'm also considering sale of both cables, because I'm thinking about some better power conditioning solution for my whole rig, but for sure I will come back to Shunyata again in the future.



I have got a bone to pick with you guys who mention Shunyata Sigma digital power cables.

The pictures intrigued me so I looked up the technical stuff on their website.

Now my wife has told me in no uncertain terms that if I don’t clean up all the coffee from the table where I spluttered and spat it out whilst reading that stuff then there is going to be no funny stuff going on in the bedroom for several days.

See what you have done?

For heavens sake, please think of others when you do those posts.


----------



## erik701

Triode User said:


> I have got a bone to pick with you guys who mention Shunyata Sigma digital power cables.
> 
> The pictures intrigued me so I looked up the technical stuff on their website.
> 
> ...



Haha, I will keep that in my mind for the future


----------



## erik701

tunes said:


> What were the immediate changes in sound that you could perceive?  With the noise floor so low already with the DAVE, it is surprising that there was a big difference with just a cleaner mains supply.



I think it depends on many factors, how big improvement it will be with better power cables and cleaner power source in your case. I live in small flat, next to the my rig I have big TV and all my Home entertainment equipment, so maybe that was the reason, why Shunyata cables made so big difference in my rig. Before I used WireWorld power cables, the cheapest ones with not very good shielding. I like WireWorld original approach to design of their power cables, but Shunyata Sigma series is different league. 

If you are asking what exactly changes, in terms of sound quality... I immediately noticed that lows are tighter and instrument separation is better. I'm not used to make A/B comparison. If I have some better component, I'm starting to use immediately and benefit from it asap. I don't wanna waste my time (which some weeks I have problem to find for sufficient listening session) to spend with worse cable (like in this case) if I already have better one at home.


----------



## WilliamWykeham (Mar 4, 2018)

Off-topic from cables, a few more impressions from a new DAVE owner -- I realized in my prior post comparing the Yggy to DAVE that it wasn't really fair to either because I was using a V281 with the Yggy and plugging in direct to the Dave, when I should have been comparing both plugged into the V281. So I did that, over several hours of A/B testing using an HE-1000 and Sliver Dragon cable. As mentioned earlier it was immediately clear to me that for any acoustic or classical music the Dave was my preference (improved details, smooth neutral sound, sense of presence and air, and on), so I restricted my comparisons to pop music, listening to Rhye, The Beatles, Big Star, Okkervil River, Why?, Jens Lekman, Ariel Pink, The Pixies, Fiery Furnaces, D'Angelo, and Joni Mitchell. For most albums my preference was the DAVE, but for a few (Jens Lekman, Why?, D'Angelo), I actually preferred the Yggy, A/Bing each DAC up to 10 times to make sure, with the Yggy really getting my foot tapping for these. What I think might have been going on with these few albums is that the DAVE was just so revealing it was almost difficult to sense a cohesive sound, like all the various parts couldn't quite sum up. However I can also point to an album like Rhye's first where the DAVE really excelled in bringing out a much more fleshed out, natural sound. After all this I concluded that despite the few cases in pop music where I had a preference for the Yggy I could be comfortable in my decision to sell it.

Secondly on the topic of plugging in direct to the DAVE vs using another amp, I've read a lot of really spirited posts here, and after extensive A/B testing I have a strong preference for going direct with classical and acoustic, whereas for heavily mastered pop albums I really need the added punch and authoritative sound that a separate amp provides and am willing to trade some transparency to get that. For instance I tried Kelela's "Take Me Apart" and had an instant preference for the boosted bass, and greater slam provided by the V281.

Now I can finally stop testing and sit back and enjoy!

... Two other observations: I strongly prefer the Utopia over the HE-1000 with DAVE, and in my one test I was not really able to tell a difference in the same recording as a hi-resolution PCM vs 16/44.1 on DAVE (whereas I could with the Yggy).


----------



## statfi

erik701 said:


> better power conditioning solution


Sorry to sound like a broken record, but I am an analogphile.  For power I suggest you consider 3 things.
1) power your rig off a dedicated line from your circuit breaker box.  I put this off for years because its such a pain, and regret that I did so.  Its a nuisance, but for me it is *the most cost effective tweak* I have done for power.
2) Use lotsa ferrites on all your power chords.
3) I have been impressed by Anticables power cables.  I have not commercial or financial connection to Anticables.  They are reasonably priced.  They are NOT so flexible.  In my system with my power they beat out a handful of alternatives in ABAB... testing.  https://www.head-fi.org/threads/headamp-blue-hawaii-special-edition.439657/page-597#post-13552445


----------



## Cobold

Would you please give some details about the ferrites behind the link.


----------



## tunes (Mar 4, 2018)

So hopefully I can come to some reasonable combination of USB cable, power cord replacement and power regenerator versus conditioner without costing me half of what I paid for the DAVE.....

I got vertigo reading this review:

https://audiobacon.net/2016/04/15/chord-dave-review-project-evad-evaluation-dave/

Has anyone found a reasonable synergistic combination that they are very satisfied without constant A-B listening?

*PerfectWave P3 Power Plant ?
vs AC Conditioner *

*vs stock power cord replacement like a Shunyta Sigma **Digital Cable?  Anticables??
*

*Vs Wireworld Platinum 7  USB cable ?*

*Vs 199 clamp on ferrite cores alternating every frequency type and brand ?*

*Is there no end to this $$$$ sucking Hobby?*

*Thanks *


----------



## statfi

tunes said:


> Is there no end to this $$$$ sucking Hobby?


No.  Duh.


----------



## Hifi Boy

Hey, it just dawned on me to ask this question!

I know I've read alot here about directly connecting Dave to speakers. But has anyone tried using RCA outputs to directly connect Dave to your headphones?


----------



## seeteeyou

@Beolab already did that with 2Qute so obviously it's gonna work with DAVE as well

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-2qute-dac-announced.749582/page-59#post-13080667


Beolab said:


> A late night recommendation:
> 
> Connected different sensitive headphones direct to the RCA outlets on the 2Qute, and used my streamer with bit perfect digital vol, and it sounds very good!


However, both 6.3-mm and RCA outputs are essentially coming from the same output stage anyways. I wonder if single-ended dual-mono (i.e. RCA) were sounding any better than single-ended stereo (i.e. 6.3-mm) by any chance?

For instance, someone actually did something like this with Fostex HP-A8 and it turned out to be an improvement

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/acl...without-a-battery.745081/page-2#post-11850822


----------



## Hifi Boy

Thanks, looks goods. I'm assuming that connecting something like HEK will work as well. I'm just afraid of something going wrong i.e. exploding in my face!


----------



## tunes (Mar 5, 2018)

I know this has been discussed before but don’t remember Rob ever commenting on the ultimate sound quality improvement with an expensive power cord replacement, AC regenerators, power conditioners, dedicated mains AC lines, more expensive Wall AC receptacles and expensive USB cables with or without snap on ferrite cores.  I am using an Aurender 100N  dedicated server that claims to have low noise USB.   I don’t have the time or patience to buy expensive options for comparison and shipping back what doesn’t change anything. Does it make sense to hire an electrician for a dedicated 20 amp line, buy a Shunyata power cord, PS3 or AC regenerator, and a Wireworld platinum USB cable with 20+ ferrite cores versus stock cords?  I suppose one could spend as much on peripherals as the DAC itself!  I doubt I have the hearing sensitivity to really notice dramatic changes in SQ. Sorry to repeat this inquiry again but hope to hear from Rob who does have sensitive hearing.


----------



## minibox

tunes said:


> So hopefully I can come to some reasonable combination of USB cable, power cord replacement and power regenerator versus conditioner without costing me half of what I paid for the DAVE.....
> 
> I got vertigo reading this review:
> 
> ...


I have used an audioquest Carbon usb, transparent usb and a wireworld platinum 7 usb. All three sounded different with the wireworld being more open, detailed and airy. I don’t know why usb cables sound different but it is clear that they do. I consider the wireworld to be one of my best non component investments.


----------



## miketlse

minibox said:


> I have used an audioquest Carbon usb, transparent usb and a wireworld platinum 7 usb. All three sounded different with the wireworld being more open, detailed and airy. I don’t know why usb cables sound different but it is clear that they do. I consider the wireworld to be one of my best non component investments.


 I would hope that the wireworld sounded great at that price. https://www.son-video.com/article/cables-usb/wireworld/platinium-starlight-7-usb-2-0-a-b-0-5-m


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## musickid (Mar 6, 2018)

Some people search for the holy grail run round in circles and chase their own tails. So Rob clearly stated not to worry about mains _too much_ as dave/blu2 are so well shielded. My own feelings lean towards experimenting with usb cables but i wouldn't risk tampering with power cables. Chord supply a specific power cable tested repeatedly with their products. No matter how well spec'd a 3rd party power cable is i feel you could be potentially tampering with a power supply that is _not_ what dave/blu2 were designed for. Maybe some of these improvements are added brightness with usb cables however real sonic benefits _could_ be had but again this is not set in stone? Just my two cents.


----------



## tunes

So I guess a dedicated AC line from the breaker box and a high quality AC outlet replacement like the PS audio makes more sense than an expensive aftermarket power cord.

I also bought an inexpensive Furman power conditioner for spikes and circuit protection. 
Furman M-8X2 Merit Series 8 Outlet Power Conditioner and Surge Protector  is this enough??

What are your thoughts about power regeneration like PS Audio P5???


----------



## musickid (Mar 6, 2018)

I will be trading my mojo for a hugo2 soon. I hope finances allowing to add blu2 to hugo2 in September. I will be using this tacima mains conditioner/surge protector. It won awards on what hifi and is generally highly regarded. I have enough faith in the integrity of dave/blu2. Cost £45. I'll use anything left over maybe for some modded hd800s. Remember some audiophiles do not like mains conditioning but prefer power regeneration/recycling as i understand and place no value on surge protection devices.

https://www.richersounds.com/tacima-cs947-6way-mains-socket.html


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## musickid (Mar 6, 2018)

Use the tacima for now and start saving for blu2. Top down strategy. Its healthy to have differing POV's but i don't know why this seems to regularly disintegrate into a brawling match on headfi. Its really beyond me. Also i think the more extravagent tweaks are suited better for speaker systems with headphone use being less demanding in this area.


----------



## Hifi Boy

tunes said:


> What are your thoughts about power regeneration like PS Audio P5???


 Search for one of my last year's posts where I describe what I heard when I first got a P5. Amazing to say the least. But you will find some people here say it does nothing for Chord gear, while others say it does. As I already stated, on my Hugo2 it made no difference, but earlier, it made a lot of difference on non-Chord gear.


----------



## statfi

Cobold said:


> Would you please give some details about the ferrites behind the link.


http://www.kregercomponents.com/fair-rite-products/0444177081
http://www.kregercomponents.com/fair-rite-products/0431177081
I did comparisons with different numbers of the two types on my AntiCable Level 3 Reference driving my BHSE headphone amplifier playing LPs.  From best to worst I found:
a) 2x 444177081 4x 0431177081
b) 5x 444177081 
c) 5x 431177081 
d) no ferrite

I did not particularly notice changes in spectral balance.  I heard changes in terms of what I like to call "focus", in space and timbre.  Better focus in space allows me to differentiate more clearly direct and reflected sound and thereby yields a tighter image based more on he direct sound.  Better focus in timbre allows me, e.g., to continuously recognize and separate from each other a violin and an oboe playing the same musical line, or, e.g., to continuously pick out secondary lines being played "under" the main line of a piece.  I say "continuously", because, when doing ABAB... testing, after you hear something on A you *can* also pick it out, at least occasionally on B.  So the advantage of the better configuration is the continuity or ease with which you hear the full complexity of the music.  Also, I associate poor focus in timbre with cases when the harmonics of a particular instrument do not integrate well with one another, e.g., you can hear some of the upper harmonics as a "tizziness" "floating above" the  sound of treble instruments, or, e.g., you can more clearly hear the pitches of bass instruments.

Even after TAS's HP, I, and we, wrestle with adequate descriptions of sound.  And there are gaps in our understanding of the physical root causes, on the one hand, and perceived audible differences on the other.  Above I have attempted to described perceived audible differences without reference to attributed root causes.  I *suspect* that poor "focus" is caused by "correlated noise", i.e., the noise is not random uncorrelated noise which we often call "hiss", but rather the magnitude of the noise "tracks" the magnitude of the signal.  

I have (seriously) played with a couple of power conditioners, and have decided not to have one at the current time.  In my suburban area, I do notice diurnal variations of the sound quality from my system which I *attribute* to changes in the quality of the power I am getting.  (I have not done a quantitative study.  T'would be fun...)  Power conditioners absolutely did reduce the magnitude of these diurnal variations.  However, I have observed at least once, that while the conditioner made the worst sound better, it also made the best sound (e.g., at night) worse.  I have never noticed that direct lines to the breaker box, "better" chords, or more ferrite made the sound worse under any conditions.  Lately, as my whole system has gotten better, I am more bothered the diurnal degradations, and may, again, end up looking for a power conditioner, one that never degrades the situation.  As stated previously, in terms of bang for the buck, direct lines, and ferrites are real bargains, and some power chords are not bad.


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> So I guess a dedicated AC line from the breaker box and a high quality AC outlet replacement like the PS audio makes more sense than an expensive aftermarket power cord.
> I also bought an inexpensive Furman power conditioner for spikes and circuit protection.
> Furman M-8X2 Merit Series 8 Outlet Power Conditioner and Surge Protector  is this enough??
> What are your thoughts about power regeneration like PS Audio P5???



I have recently had a 'robust discussion' on Head-Fi about power cables and regeneration in relation to that review and Dave and other Chord digital products. It is no secret that I am a skeptic when it comes to power cables and yet I must accept that there are those who do say that they get benefits from them even though I have never had any benefit at all.

However, I think the fundamental and first thing to ask oneself is, "Do I actually have a problem with my mains?" It would be very easy to buy $10,000 USD worth of cables and conditioners etc (the new PS Audio P20 is $10,000 I think) and then only to find that there is no improvement because you never had a problem with your mains in the first place. 

I have a PS Audio P10 which I use on my tube system mainly to control the voltage of the mains. I have tried it on my solid state system (Innuos Zenith SE, Chord Blu2 & Dave, Pass Labs XA60.8 amps) and hear no difference whatsoever. It has been mooted that is because my system is not revealing enough but personally I think it is because my mains is pretty clean anyway - we are out in the country, there are only 3 houses served off the power company high voltage transformer. 

Even if there is electrical kit in your own house that might spew dirt back in the mains do not assume that a new AC line off the breaker box will do anything. All the other AC lines are after all connected in the breaker box. I did an experiment where I put a powerline network adapter in one part of the house and then put one on separate AC line from the breaker box like the one you mention. The result was there was no separation at all to the 'dedicated' AC line and the little boxes talked to each other quite happily. If they can do that then RF or EMI will also pass quite happily onto the dedicated AC line. (The P10 did stop the powerline network adapters from talking to each other though which does prove it's effectiveness).

So, all I am saying is to keep an open mind about whether you actually have dirty mains at all. If you live in an apartment block in a city or near industry then you are much more likely to have a problem than if you live in the countryside. Be aware as well that Rob Watts has always maintained that Dave is relatively immune from mains effects.  Relatively immune does not not mean the same as 100% immune but there may be other areas to attack first rather than leap to the conclusion that mains treatment is cost effective. 

Also, be aware that whilst there are many good products out there which are well designed, well made and actually do something, there are also plenty that are pure snake oil and are trading on peoples willingness to be deceived. Please also be wary of accepting reports of power cables improving the sound by 20% or 30% at face value. At the risk of opening my big mouth again, that just isn't possible from a power cable.  

In summary, I would say just plug your Dave in using the supplied cable. You will get great music. If you want to play and if you have optimised everything else then by all means have a play with some mains cables or conditioning but make sure you buy it on sale or return an use your own ears rather than rely on a review because they might have dirty mains and you might not.


----------



## statfi

Triode User said:


> make sure you buy it on sale or return an[d] use your own ears


Amen.


----------



## Triode User

statfi said:


> Amen.



 thanks for the spelling correction.


----------



## Cobold

statfi said:


> http://www.kregercomponents.com/fair-rite-products/0444177081
> http://www.kregercomponents.com/fair-rite-products/0431177081
> I did comparisons with different numbers of the two types on my AntiCable Level 3 Reference driving my BHSE headphone amplifier playing LPs.  From best to worst I found:
> a) 2x 444177081 4x 0431177081
> ...



Thank you.
Unbelievable how many different types there are.
I think I want to try some which go down to 1Mhz and some just to 10Mhz.

Cobold


----------



## ray-dude

Off the wall question for folks (that a thread search didn't help with), since I'm restless not being at the hacking session with Rob/Jay/Roy 

In looking at the publicity shots of the DAVE PCB, it looks like there are some dip switches next to the FPGA (see https://positive-feedback.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/2016-01-15_Chord-Dave_008.jpg )

Does anyone know what these switches do?  Curious


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## flyte3333 (Mar 7, 2018)

Hi @Rob Watts and everyone,

Have you heard of this high speed USB 2.0 OPTICALLY ISOLATED (apparently) USB gadget:

https://www.djmelectronics.com/usb-emi-rfi-filter.html

I can't find a single review anywhere and the price but that could be because they appear to supply industrial and military industries, not audiophile specifically.

I've never seen high speed USB 2.0 optically isolated USB isolators before so this raised my eyebrows... I'm sure some people have used opto-couplers with DIY solutions but never seen something that people that lack these DIY skills (like me) can buy.


----------



## tunes

Triode User said:


> I have recently had a 'robust discussion' on Head-Fi about power cables and regeneration in relation to that review and Dave and other Chord digital products. It is no secret that I am a skeptic when it comes to power cables and yet I must accept that there are those who do say that they get benefits from them even though I have never had any benefit at all.
> 
> However, I think the fundamental and first thing to ask oneself is, "Do I actually have a problem with my mains?" It would be very easy to buy $10,000 USD worth of cables and conditioners etc (the new PS Audio P20 is $10,000 I think) and then only to find that there is no improvement because you never had a problem with your mains in the first place.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for that very astute response.  It all makes sense.  I wish there was an objective way to measure my mains quality in terms of noise.  On another note, what is your opinion regarding USB cables for DAVE.  My feed is from an Aurender N100H music server.  Do expensive cables make a difference compared to cheap ones and those snap on ferrite cores? One poster used 20 of them on a standard cable and it sounded better than a $500 dedicated USB Wireworld cable.


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> Thanks so much for that very astute response.  It all makes sense.  I wish there was an objective way to measure my mains quality in terms of noise.  On another note, what is your opinion regarding USB cables for DAVE.  My feed is from an Aurender N100H music server.  Do expensive cables make a difference compared to cheap ones and those snap on ferrite cores? One poster used 20 of them on a standard cable and it sounded better than a $500 dedicated USB Wireworld cable.



Ah, USB cables. 

I use quite cheap but well made Supra USB cables. I 'think' I hear a benefit when I put ferrite cores on them but equally I am suspicious that it might be my own expectation bias. The ferrite cores cannot do any harm so I have left them on. 

My advice would be to start simple and not to get distracted by bling. Remember always that expensive cables are not always better. The cable sellers are well aware that sometimes the more expensive they make something then the more people want it. A $30 dollar cable might not sell to audiophiles but put the same cable in a presentation box and charge $3,000 and watch it fly off the shelves and get rave reviews.

I would say to listen to your system initially for a few weeks (or even months) before trying anything more than a good basic cable. In any case it might take that length of time to become attuned to the new sound. Then maybe try listening to some alternative USB cables but use your ears to judge them and not the cost or talk of exotic materials.


----------



## TheAttorney

tunes said:


> What size, slow or fast blow and voltage is best for the SR Blue fuse replacement on DAVE??  Who sells this fuse?



DAVE does not appear to have a fuse, so one less audio tweak to worry about .

Regarding Triode's comments on mains and usb products, if you've made an attempt to read through this thread (and if not then why not?!), you will find all sorts of recommendations, some agreeing with him and some not. You won't really know whose advice works best for you until you try it for yourself - and here I fully agree with Triode's last recommendation:
_
I would say to listen to your system initially for a few weeks (or even months) before trying anything more than a good basic cable. In any case it might take that length of time to become attuned to the new sound. Then maybe try listening to some alternative USB cables but use your ears to judge them and not the cost or talk of exotic materials._


----------



## tunes

TheAttorney said:


> DAVE does not appear to have a fuse, so one less audio tweak to worry about .
> 
> Regarding Triode's comments on mains and usb products, if you've made an attempt to read through this thread (and if not then why not?!), you will find all sorts of recommendations, some agreeing with him and some not. You won't really know whose advice works best for you until you try it for yourself - and here I fully agree with Triode's last recommendation:
> _
> I would say to listen to your system initially for a few weeks (or even months) before trying anything more than a good basic cable. In any case it might take that length of time to become attuned to the new sound. Then maybe try listening to some alternative USB cables but use your ears to judge them and not the cost or talk of exotic materials._


Excellent advise. 

Thanks


----------



## astrostar59

The DAVE has a SMPS which is interesting to me, as most manufacturers shun such device for their inherent noise issues. Hat's off to Rob for getting his to work. His power amps use them as well to great effect I am told, though not heard those yet. My question is, how does he avoid dumping noise down the main and polluting the rest of the system which can happen to a typical SMPS design?


----------



## Triode User

astrostar59 said:


> The DAVE has a SMPS which is interesting to me, as most manufacturers shun such device for their inherent noise issues. Hat's off to Rob for getting his to work. His power amps use them as well to great effect I am told, though not heard those yet. My question is, how does he avoid dumping noise down the main and polluting the rest of the system which can happen to a typical SMPS design?



The myth about switched power supplies being noisy is just that, a myth. 

Sure, cheap badly designed wallwart ones can give out noise but they are a world away from the supplies in Dave and Blu2. 

Search on google for 'switched power supplies myth' and you come up with statements such as, "_About 5 years ago, Benchmark stopped putting linear power supplies into our new products, and we replaced them with switching power supplies. We did this because linear supplies are too noisy. Yes, you read that correctly, linear supplies are noisy! A well-designed switching power supply can be much quieter than a linear supply_."


----------



## tunes

Have you heard the Supra USB 2 cables.  These are very reasonable. A good starter cable to compare others to??

https://www.whathifi.com/supra/usb-20/review


----------



## jonstatt

So both the Blu2 and DAVE forum threads are dominated by discussion on cables.

Considering that Dave re-clocks whatever it receives, we can pretty much remove the concern on jitter whether that be via TOSLINK or USB. Instead the focus for a digital cable should be to limit the transference of RF, EMI etc to Dave (or Blu2). In the case of digital interconnects if the resulting sound is brighter then it isn't a good cable. There is no way in the case of digital transfer to selectively affect treble vs bass from the perspective of the music encoding itself. However, the effects of RF and EMI are generally heard as bright or harsh as they influence the analogue circuitry downstream. Earlier in this thread a USB cable was described as expensive and good because it was brighter. This may be a perfect example of a cable manufacturer charging a lot of money for snake oil and getting away with it.

In my case I tried to get the interlink between an Auralic Aries and Dave to sound the same whether using TOSLINK or USB. Initially with a cheap printer USB cable, it sounded fatiguing and muddy compared to TOSLINK. I don't know why my brain was perceiving the sound as muddy. Using an exotic but cheaper end of exotic USB cables, a Vertere DD one, and a jitterbug, the two sounded pretty much identical (within the realm of confusing myself whether there was still a difference or not). The Vertere DD separates power lines and data lines with individual shielding, so perhaps that's why there is a positive difference vs the printer cable.

There is too much snake oil in this aspect of Audiophilia and I am sorry but there is absolutely no way that a well constructed cable with optimal attributes such as capacitance and impedance should cost thousands. I am happy to support the notion that cables can make a difference for the reasons mentioned but this a problem that can be reasonably solved for a reasonable price.


----------



## rayl

Triode User said:


> The myth about switched power supplies being noisy is just that, a myth.
> 
> Sure, cheap badly designed wallwart ones can give out noise but they are a world away from the supplies in Dave and Blu2.
> 
> Search on google for 'switched power supplies myth' and you come up with statements such as, "_About 5 years ago, Benchmark stopped putting linear power supplies into our new products, and we replaced them with switching power supplies. We did this because linear supplies are too noisy. Yes, you read that correctly, linear supplies are noisy! A well-designed switching power supply can be much quieter than a linear supply_."



Just wanted to throw in thought on linear vs switching --

I personally feel the bigger issue with the performance of switching is when you have a low pf loads, like amplifiers -- and some preamps.  Much more so than noise.  Switching power supplies are not good at insuring high current availability at AC cycle peaks.  I feel the same way about AC regen and where they make the greatest impact.


----------



## statfi

rayl said:


> low pf loads, like amplifiers -- and some preamps. Much more so than noise. Switching power supplies are not good at insuring high current availability at AC cycle peaks


I'm lost in space, again...
Does "pf" mean "pico farads"?  If so, could explain why they are an issue for switching supplies?  If not, what?
"AC cycle peaks" of the music or the mains?  Again, I do not understand.


----------



## rayl

statfi said:


> I'm lost in space, again...
> Does "pf" mean "pico farads"?  If so, could explain why they are an issue for switching supplies?  If not, what?
> "AC cycle peaks" of the music or the mains?  Again, I do not understand.



Power factor.... and AC cycle peaks.  It has to do with the fact that certain loads, like amplifiers, suck in more amperage at the peaks of the AC cycles as opposed to linearly as the case with a purely resistive load.  This puts stress on the power supply and starves the load.

PSAudio actually has a decent tutorial on it on YouTube as it relates to their regen products if you're interested. Search for "psaudio class d power plant".  I agree with their thinking on this for the most part.


----------



## yakaway

What are some alternatives that you considered before buying your chord dave and possibly blu MKII?

My consideration is ps audio's directsteam dac and memory player. It has a bridge for roon and tidal. It's upgradeable and they are creating a new bridge, due out next year.  Anyone else consider this combo?

I'd be interested to hear yours and why you chose one over the other.


----------



## rayl

yakaway said:


> What are some alternatives that you considered before buying your chord dave and possibly blu MKII?
> 
> My consideration is ps audio's directsteam dac and memory player. It has a bridge for roon and tidal. It's upgradeable and they are creating a new bridge, due out next year.  Anyone else consider this combo?
> 
> I'd be interested to hear yours and why you chose one over the other.



I came from a DSJ Huron and before that a Brooklyn to the DAVE.  I haven't tried RedCloud on the DSJ -- it came out just as I received my DAVE.  I was so impressed by the "3D"-ness of DAVE (I know it isn't truly 3D, but an illusion of perception due to better reproduction) that I decided to just offload the DSJ and placed an order for a Blu2.  And I know that DSJ is not the same as DSSr, but that's my history.


----------



## statfi

rayl said:


> Power factor.... and AC cycle peaks. It has to do with the fact that certain loads, like amplifiers, suck in more amperage at the peaks of the AC cycles as opposed to linearly as the case with a purely resistive load.


Ah!  Thanks, and complete, independent agreement on that.


----------



## jlbrach

the DS sr  is a hell of a DAC for the price......dave/blu2 is better but should be for 4 times the cost


----------



## flyte3333 (Mar 7, 2018)

Triode User said:


> The myth about switched power supplies being noisy is just that, a myth.
> 
> Sure, cheap badly designed wallwart ones can give out noise but they are a world away from the supplies in Dave and Blu2.
> 
> Search on google for 'switched power supplies myth' and you come up with statements such as, "_About 5 years ago, Benchmark stopped putting linear power supplies into our new products, and we replaced them with switching power supplies. We did this because linear supplies are too noisy. Yes, you read that correctly, linear supplies are noisy! A well-designed switching power supply can be much quieter than a linear supply_."



According to John Swenson who has just made up his own customer testing gear, leakage currents of SMPS's he's tested are typically higher than linear PSU's.

Apparently it has something to do with the "Y" capacitors of SMPS's...

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/xmo...gen-has-arrived.803111/page-239#post-12883888

In terms of noisier and quieter between linear PSU's and SMPS's, it seems leakage currents seems to be a bigger issue affecting SQ according to some like John S.

I'm not bothered even when I upgrade my Hugo2 to a Dave - because I use it with headphones and Dave's TOSLink input, so the 'loop' is broken.

But one MAY get leakage current 'loops' through the DAC if you connect an SMPS powered amp to it (or via upstream connections).


----------



## Christer (Mar 7, 2018)

toetapaudio said:


> I’m sure you are right. The other makes of USB cables that I mentioned are more expensive but then if you are spending £8k or so on a dac then £500 on a USB cable to obtain better performance doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. It’s also not unreasonable imo for a dedicated artisan producer like Sablon who is striving for perfection with low sales numbers, to charge appropriately for their work. SOTA doesn’t come cheap but I believe Sablon represents good value for money. AQ Diamond and Light Harmonics cost a lot more than Sablon but not better.



Hmm, I fail to see the logic in this type of reasoning.
If I have paid the kind of money you suggest for a product I am of the strong opinion that it should come with suitably high quality cabling in the box.
You don't buy say a high quality mountain bike with sub standard wheels do you?


----------



## Triode User

Em2016 said:


> According to John Swenson who has just made up his own customer testing gear, leakage currents of SMPS's he's tested are typically higher than linear PSU's.
> 
> Apparently it has something to do with the "Y" capacitors of SMPS's...
> 
> ...



Well the simple answer is that I don’t know how that relates to Dave’s power supply and really only Rob Watts is in a position to properly comment.


----------



## flyte3333 (Mar 8, 2018)

Triode User said:


> Well the simple answer is that I don’t know how that relates to Dave’s power supply



Yes noted, I wasn't asking you any questions directly 

Your post and Benchmark quote may imply no issues with SMPS's but my Uptone Audio quote and John Swenson's posts all over CA Forum seem to indicate they MAY be problematic (or not, depending on implementation and rest of the system) for different reasons than your post tackles/addresses, i.e. not related to 'noise' but actually leakage currents.

Of course I wasn't referring to Rob's use of SMPS's (I'm as clueless as you there) and as I mentioned, I'm not bothered when I upgrade my Hugo2 to Dave because it will only be driving my headphones directly.

But yes it would be cool if Rob can shed some light on how any potential issues for leakage currents would would minimised with Dave connected to his future amps or if they're a non issue at all.


----------



## ecwl

Em2016 said:


> Your post and Benchmark quote may imply no issues with SMPS's but my Uptone Audio quote and John Swenson's posts all over CA Forum seem to indicate they MAY be problematic



I think of note, John Swenson also mentioned that SMPS leakage currents can be fixed/significantly improved by galvanic isolation for low impedance leakage currents and by grounding of the SMPS for high impedance leakage currents. Of course, DAVE’s USB input is galvanically isolated and my dealer and I did verify the SMPS of DAVE is  grounded. Of course that doesn’t address the issues of upstream devices like music streamers/servers powered by SMPS getting leakage current noise into DAVE.


----------



## flyte3333 (Mar 8, 2018)

ecwl said:


> ohn Swenson also mentioned that SMPS leakage currents can be fixed/significantly improved by galvanic isolation for low impedance leakage currents and by grounding of the SMPS for high impedance leakage currents.



Yup I see we follow the same threads. Grounding the output of the SMPS lowers the high impedance leakage but doesn't affect the low impedance leakage.

The reason he suggested this trick with Netgear switches is that he says ethernet transformers are great at filtering the low impedance leakage but not the high impedance stuff.

So with ethernet transformer isolation in combination with his SMPS grounding trick with his tested and recommended switches, you get a nice reduction in leakage to your ethernet audio endpoint, for relatively little money which is always nice.

But a linear PSU typically still has lower leakage than even a grounded SMPS, apparently.


----------



## Rob Watts (Mar 8, 2018)

Em2016 said:


> Yes noted, I wasn't asking you any questions directly
> 
> Your post and Benchmark quote may imply no issues with SMPS's but my Uptone Audio quote and John Swenson's posts all over CA Forum seem to indicate they MAY be problematic (or not, depending on implementation and rest of the system) for different reasons than your post tackles/addresses, i.e. not related to 'noise' but actually leakage currents.
> 
> ...



If you design a proper RF mains filter you must use Y capacitors; this results in more leakage currents, but much better sound quality and RF filtering performance. SQ wise it gives a warmer softer performance; and of course some do not like that presentation, particularly if the system is already too dark, or lacks fundamental transparency. But by far the best approach is to use Y caps, then focus on improving your system's fundamental transparency.

As far as Dave is concerned, don't worry; it's relatively immune to the quality of the mains - my experience suggests that any SQ change is down to Dave interacting with other components not Dave being innately sensitive.

Edit: use of Class Y caps is essential even with linear products; my mains RF filter was designed before digital.


----------



## flyte3333

Rob Watts said:


> As far as Dave is concerned, don't worry; it's relatively immune to the quality of the mains - my experience suggests that any SQ change is down to Dave interacting with other components not Dave being innately sensitive.



The Guru has spoken ! Thanks Rob.

Speaking about Dave interacting with other components, what about Dave interactions with your future amps ! 

I'm sure you're ahead of the game there and have it all figured.


----------



## Rob Watts

It's not an issue so long as the PSU has extensive and effective RF filtering, and the galvanic isolation is effective at the GHz area! The problem is the term effective, as these issues are amazingly sensitive, so you need to go to extreme lengths to address the issue.


----------



## flyte3333

Rob Watts said:


> It's not an issue so long as the PSU has extensive and effective RF filtering, and the galvanic isolation is effective at the GHz area! The problem is the term effective, as these issues are amazingly sensitive, so you need to go to extreme lengths to address the issue.



Hehe nice. No doubt you're going to extreme lengths to address this and other potential issues.

Thanks again Rob.


----------



## rgs9200m (Mar 8, 2018)

After some experimenting, I use my TelWire HC power cord with DAVE and it sounds great. It has nice bloom and balance. I don't use power conditioning. The TelWire is also nice and flexible. I am a fan of Shunyata but they are very thick and don't sit well on my desk. I find that some high-end cords tend to add too much brightness to the sound. The TelWire does not. But it is fuller sounding than the stock cord.
http://www.telwire.net/cord/

If you want something cheaper, try the TG audio cords. They are very nice sounding, much better than typical stock cords. Both the TG 688 and Silver cords work well and I have used them in the past. TG has been around a long time. The original founder of 
TG (Bob Crump) passed away a few years ago but the company lives on. His cables are very popular.
http://www.tgaudio.com/page_1.html


----------



## marcmccalmont




----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


>




An interesting and fun experiment.

My home assembled Belden cables with an earthed shield do exactly the same. I must admit it hadn't occured to me to do that test but having now done it they pass with flying colours and no leakage.


----------



## ZappaMan

It’s a good debate. I think it’s good to challenge everything. It makes both sides raise their game and challenge their assumptions.

I think, money, is the resource we can least afford to waste, so it’s good to be better informed.

I know nothing on this topic btw.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Mar 8, 2018)

Triode User said:


> An interesting and fun experiment.
> 
> My home assembled Belden cables with an earthed shield do exactly the same. I must admit it hadn't occured to me to do that test but having now done it they pass with flying colours and no leakage.


Can you post a picture of your cables and leakage tester results you know lots of people say they do tests on the internet but they don’t it’s always good to challenge those  making claims
BTW pre made Belden  shielded cords were the ones I used until a friend turned me on to the Pangea’s reasonably priced too by the time you buy quality cable and connectors you’ve paid for s Pangea!


----------



## tunes

shuttlepod said:


> I just spent two weeks listening to the DAVE in a generous in-home audition here in Seattle. When the local rep dropped it off, the DAVE was still in the box, fresh from the factory. This was apparently the first DAVE to make it to the American Pacific Northwest. I mostly ran it 24/7 so that by the end of the audition, it had about 300 hours.
> 
> *How I Got to this Point*
> 
> ...


Great review !!   I was wondering how much difference your very expensive power cord to the DAVE made compared to the included power cord and also the very expensive power conditioner, together they cost more than the DAVE?  Your thoughts on just using a Furman conditioner and a dedicated AC mains line from the breaker box??  Also did you ever compare the DAVE to the Yaggy?


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> Can you post a picture of your cables and leakage tester results you know lots of people say they do tests on the internet but they don’t it’s always good to challenge those  making claims
> BTW pre made Belden  shielded cords were the ones I used until a friend turned me on to the Pangea’s reasonably priced too by the time you buy quality cable and connectors you’ve paid for s Pangea!



No problem. I was using an Extech multimeter that has an electrical field sensor. This is a similar sensor to the sort in the video posted by you. I compared a normal unscreened power cord and a Belden screened 3 core power cable that I assembled with the screen earthed at one end. I use this cable for all my power cords simply because it reduces the electrical field leakage around the cable. This can be helpful when running other cables nearby. The cable costs me £2.65 inc VAT per m.

Here is a link to a short YouTube video taken today. The red light at the top of the meter shows the presence of an electrical field.


----------



## doraymon

Checking in as the journey to acquire (...one day...) a Dave just commenced.

Phase 1: Sell all the unused gear (started yesterday with the sale of my Hugo2) 
Phase 2: Find a seller/retailer and bargain to death
Phase 3: Purchase the Dave and convince the wife that it's the same black box I had before just with more lights

I feel like Frodo leaving the Shire...


----------



## Whazzzup

doraymon said:


> Checking in as the journey to acquire (...one day...) a Dave just commenced.
> 
> Phase 1: Sell all the unused gear (started yesterday with the sale of my Hugo2)
> Phase 2: Find a seller/retailer and bargain to death
> ...


I had to buy a car so....


----------



## ZappaMan

doraymon said:


> Checking in as the journey to acquire (...one day...) a Dave just commenced.
> 
> Phase 1: Sell all the unused gear (started yesterday with the sale of my Hugo2)
> Phase 2: Find a seller/retailer and bargain to death
> ...



I discussed it with the wife yesterday, but she was more interested in how our retirement pot looked .... I'm so sad right now ....


----------



## Triode User

ZappaMan said:


> I discussed it with the wife yesterday, but she was more interested in how our retirement pot looked .... I'm so sad right now ....



Just keep working. You know it makes sense. Retirement is much over rated.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Whazzzup said:


> I had to buy a car so....



No oil changes or tire rotations needed with the DAVE.  There's always Uber.


----------



## draytonklammer

Small update to my DAVE review:
https://tascware.com/blogs/showthread.php?tid=2

Thanks for the interest. I've had a lot of messages so far related.
Hoping to get my hands on new stuff to review soon.


----------



## Sonic77

ZappaMan said:


> I discussed it with the wife yesterday, but she was more interested in how our retirement pot looked .... I'm so sad right now ....


Your wife is smart, why build someone else's retirement when you could be building yours first. I suggest looking at the used market and sampling other dacs, for example, I love the PS Audio Direct Stream Dac, it sounds great and it's a fraction of the cost of a Dave.


----------



## Triode User (Mar 10, 2018)

Sonic77 said:


> Your wife is smart, why build someone else's retirement when you could be building yours first. I suggest looking at the used market and sampling other dacs, for example, I love the PS Audio Direct Stream Dac, it sounds great and it's a fraction of the cost of a Dave.



Which side are you on?  I have compared the Direct Stream dac (with the lastest firmware) to Dave and think it sounds moderate compared to Dave! Retirement may never happen because you might get run over tomorrow. Anyway having seen seen so many friends that have died within a year of retiring I would say buy the Dave.


----------



## ecwl

I haven’t listened to PS Directstream DAC yet. But my take is that if you need to worry about retirement when purchasing DAVE, you should probably be buying Hugo 2 or Qutest. That’s why I don’t own a Tesla S.


----------



## ZappaMan

I suppose, I believe in living in the moment, i recently lost my brother, it does focus the mind a bit, we won’t be here forever, but also need to make preparations for the future....

But yes, I need to get better educated around other options,then see if I can even hear a difference between them.

But after market sounds like a good strategy too,just need to make up a fake receipt with a much reduced price


----------



## doraymon

ZappaMan said:


> I discussed it with the wife yesterday, but she was more interested in how our retirement pot looked .... I'm so sad right now ....


Oh no, don't let me think at that, otherwise I'll drop the idea right away!
Please guys, if you think it's a silly idea just keep it for you ok? 
LOL


----------



## doraymon

Triode User said:


> Which side are you on?  I have compared the Direct Stream dac (with the lastest firmware) to Dave and think it sounds moderate compared to Dave! Retirement may never happen because you might get run over tomorrow. Anyway having seen seen so many friends that have died within a year of retiring I would say buy the Dave.


Yeah! That's the spirit!


----------



## doraymon

ZappaMan said:


> I suppose, I believe in living in the moment, i recently lost my brother, it does focus the mind a bit, we won’t be here forever, but also need to make preparations for the future....
> 
> But yes, I need to get better educated around other options,then see if I can even hear a difference between them.
> 
> But after market sounds like a good strategy too,just need to make up a fake receipt with a much reduced price


I'm sorry for your loss man and yes we are not here forever!
My only concern when I plan this kind of purchases is my 2 young kids, I always feel guilty!
I try to balance the expenses on the "safety margin" I can guarantee them when I'll go...


----------



## Whazzzup

The problem for me is audio is not my only vice, if we call these things problems, and with retiring in my early 40’s it’s a marathon not a race. I’m lucky, I still think of myself as a newbie in this hobby, but at the same time shot high enough with my buys,  I have little desire to churn.
My first piece of kit was Hugo and Dave was just a bit to aspirational. TT sawed it off And stopped the churn before it started.
But still have Dave thread on subscribed.


----------



## Jiffi32 (Mar 10, 2018)

Whazzzup said:


> The problem for me is audio is not my only vice, if we call these things problems, and with retiring in my early 40’s it’s a marathon not a race. I’m lucky, I still think of myself as a newbie in this hobby, but at the same time shot high enough with my buys,  I have little desire to churn.
> My first piece of kit was Hugo and Dave was just a bit to aspirational. TT sawed it off And stopped the churn before it started.
> But still have Dave thread on subscribed.



I followed similar path, started with a hugo then TT, now have a Dave. It was the forum's fault!


----------



## doraymon

Whazzzup said:


> My first piece of kit was Hugo and Dave was just a bit to aspirational. TT sawed it off And stopped the churn before it started.
> But still have Dave thread on subscribed.


I was so happy with my Hugo 1 but than heard the Hugo 2 but then heard the Holo KTE Spring L3 and then...


----------



## Whitigir (Mar 10, 2018)

What makes the Dave sound good ? The switching power supply unit ?


----------



## Whazzzup

Whitigir said:


> What makes the Dave sound good ? The switching power supply unit ?


The price  or is it that it sounds good thus the price


----------



## EndGameSearch

Whazzzup said:


> The price  or is it that it sounds good thus the price


Dave cost what it cost due to the intellectual property that's inside of it.  Obviously the quality of the components is second to none but the secret sauce simply can not be recreated by someone else.  With two young children myself I think seriously about the large purchases I make but in this case I feel it's a fair exchange of my cash for something that truly is one of a kind.  My Blu2 is on order and I can hardly fathom what that secret sauce will taste like.  I have no regrets on the spend even though it really hurt pulling my wallet out.  My point, it's tough to put a "fair" price on intellectual property that took a lifetime to develop.


----------



## Whazzzup

This was a fang joke, kinda inside joke with Whitgir. I’m not inferring anything bad with chord or hifi man


----------



## Sonic77

Triode User said:


> Which side are you on?  I have compared the Direct Stream dac (with the lastest firmware) to Dave and think it sounds moderate compared to Dave! Retirement may never happen because you might get run over tomorrow. Anyway having seen seen so many friends that have died within a year of retiring I would say buy the Dave.


I'm on the wife's side


----------



## doraymon

I don't want to unleash the wrath of anyone here but is anyone using the Dave together with a headphone amp?
I know what Rob Watts (and many other fellow forumers for that matter) think about adding an amp to his DACs but I am interested to hear first hand comments of someone who does with satisfying results.


----------



## Whazzzup

one in particular a friend of mine, an idyllic lawyer with a fascination for greek mythology suggests that pandoras box isn't a box at all, but a vase. Just saying....


----------



## marcmccalmont

doraymon said:


> I don't want to unleash the wrath of anyone here but is anyone using the Dave together with a headphone amp?
> I know what Rob Watts (and many other fellow forumers for that matter) think about adding an amp to his DACs but I am interested to hear first hand comments of someone who does with satisfying results.


Yes I am not 100% happy with the Focal Utopias bass directly from Dave. I love the transparency though. Dave’s damping factor is very high so that’s not it, perhaps the large impedance rise at resonance is causing problems (thanks Jawed). I first tried my Spectral DMC 20 with 1 ohm output resistors. The bass was very tight and to my liking but the lack of transparency I couldn’t  live with. The next step was to pull out my Bryston bha1 modified with much larger coupling caps to improve the bass. Much better and we are getting closer. When I return home at the end of the month I have Questyle cma800r to try,  good reviews and very low distortion. I’ll report back on how that works out. Impedance compensation works well for speakers and low power amplifiers so I’ve ordered the parts for a bass RLC network again I’ll get the parts at the end of the month. The problem (a good one) is Dave’s output is an order of magnitude cleaner than the best preamps and headphone amps so I’m hoping  the impedance compensation will tighten up the bass to my liking driven directly from Dave. I’ll update you later next month.


----------



## SunWarrior

doraymon said:


> I don't want to unleash the wrath of anyone here but is anyone using the Dave together with a headphone amp?
> I know what Rob Watts (and many other fellow forumers for that matter) think about adding an amp to his DACs but I am interested to hear first hand comments of someone who does with satisfying results.



Yes, that's me. I've had my Dave for nearly two years now, after it bested other DACs like the top-end one from Berkeley...and my all-digital system with the Aurender N10 server is better than ever with the Dave.

And while I'm nearly always very happy with the Dave as headphone amp, I love variety. So the Dave also feeds its signal into my Cavalli Liquid Gold headphone amp, bought last year.

Richer, warmer sound from the Cavalli; more detail direct from the Dave. Both bring great pleasure, highlighted by those different qualities. This with (mainly) Focal Utopia cans.

Dave, the man not the DAC who asks why does he need to choose between Italian and Mexican food and in fact he does not need to choose the food since over time his stomach can accommodate both which is not dissimilar from wanting enjoying exploring owning two excellent headphone amps because like many good things in life the best answer is not either/or but instead all-of-the-above


----------



## tunes

New firmware for DAVE?  How do you know if you have the latest firmware????!


----------



## jonstatt

tunes said:


> New firmware for DAVE?  How do you know if you have the latest firmware????!



I believe it is not updatable. And I also believe there has only been one version.


----------



## doraymon

It has certainly been discussed already but may I ask a summary of which is considered the best input for the Dave. (If it makes any difference)?
I am late to the party and would need to read hundred of posts to get a fair idea...


----------



## pjk1

Whazzzup said:


> The price  or is it that it sounds good thus the price


Completely worth the price as crazy as it sounds though. I thought everyone on here was exaggerating with how amazing the Dave sounds stand alone. Once I took the plunge I have not regretted it one bit! Driving Focal Utopia headphones.


----------



## SCBob

pjk1 said:


> Completely worth the price as crazy as it sounds though. I thought everyone on here was exaggerating with how amazing the Dave sounds stand alone. Once I took the plunge I have not regretted it one bit! Driving Focal Utopia headphones.


I'm new to this thread and am intrigued by the DAVE. I am using the Hugo TT with Focal Utopia and Danacable Lazuli Reference cable. The thought of the sound getting even better is appealing. I've read about the Blu 2 and how advanced it is. Is there a DAVE 2 in the pipeline? DAVE has been around for a few years and things are obviously advancing. Hate to be one of the final DAVE full price payers. On the other hand would welcome more second hand DAVE "1" offerings.


----------



## x RELIC x

SCBob said:


> I'm new to this thread and am intrigued by the DAVE. I am using the Hugo TT with Focal Utopia and Danacable Lazuli Reference cable. The thought of the sound getting even better is appealing. I've read about the Blu 2 and how advanced it is. Is there a DAVE 2 in the pipeline? DAVE has been around for a few years and things are obviously advancing. Hate to be one of the final DAVE full price payers. On the other hand would welcome more second hand DAVE "1" offerings.



No plans for DAVE2 on the horizon.


----------



## x RELIC x

doraymon said:


> It has certainly been discussed already but may I ask a summary of which is considered the best input for the Dave. (If it makes any difference)?
> I am late to the party and would need to read hundred of posts to get a fair idea...



This post will cover a lot of your questions:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-94#post-12262339


----------



## Jawed

doraymon said:


> It has certainly been discussed already but may I ask a summary of which is considered the best input for the Dave. (If it makes any difference)?
> I am late to the party and would need to read hundred of posts to get a fair idea...


Optical. 

Now search the thread for "optical" to find out why. Hint: get the search results sorted with newest first and put Rob Watts as the poster.

These are the two posts you want to pay attention to:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-648#post-13969760

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-649#post-13970809

Rob hasn't said if he learnt anything on this subject from the visit he mentions.

Now playing: Gabrielle Aplin - Alive


----------



## doraymon

Thanks guys, I have a lot of reading for the evening...


----------



## tunes (Mar 11, 2018)

I know I am beating a dead horse on this one but if DAVE is galvanically isolated and the USB issues in terms of better or worse SQ stem from RF noise either from the USB signal coming in via the USB cable or from the AC power cord, is there a way to measure this RF interference with some external device? 

As Rob points out when asked: So what are the best USB cables?

“Firstly, be careful. A lot of audiophile USB cables actually increase RF noise and make it sound brighter, and superficially impressive - but this is just distortion brightening things up. Go for USB cables that have ferrites in the cable is a good idea.”

So for those who claim that putting 20 + clamp on ferrite cores on the USB cable can reduce RF to the extent that a cheap USB cable can sound as good as a $700 cable, why not just measure this RF and reduce with adding the ferrites if there is a way to measure this beyond simply listening subjectively?

Rob was also asked if better AC cables make a difference?

“In the 1980's, people started talking about mains cables making a difference to the sound quality - and I didn't believe it either - particularly as my pre-amp had 300 dB of PSU rejection in the power supply. But I did a listening test, and yes I could hear a difference. Frankly I still could not believe the evidence of my own ears, so did a blind listening test with my girl friend. She reported exactly the same observation - mains cables did make a difference to SQ.

To cut a long story short, I proved the problem was down to RF noise. RF noise inter-modulates with the wanted audio signal within the analogue electronics, and if the RF noise is random, then the distortion is random too and you get a increase in noise floor with signal. This increase in noise floor is noise floor modulation, and the brain is very sensitive to it...”

So once again why not just add enough ferrite cores on the power cable to get rid of all measurable RF noise??  How can this be measured objectively??

Finally when asked if
DAVE benefits from mechanical isolation (Stillpoints, etc)? The answer was “Yes all products do”

So what relatively inexpensive options are there for DAVE for mechanical isolation?  I assume this isn’t required for just headphone use but when DAVE output is to efficient speakers like Alnicos or an amp?


----------



## Jawed

tunes said:


> So for those who claim that putting 20 + clamp on ferrite cores on the USB cable can reduce RF to the extent that a cheap USB cable can sound as good as a $700 cable, why not just measure this RF and reduce with adding the ferrites if there is a way to measure this beyond simply listening subjectively?


I think you probably need some expensive lab equipment to measure this.

It's easier to just put the ferrites on the cable. If you dislike the effect or there is no effect, then you've wasted less than £20...



> So once again why not just add enough ferrite cores on the power cable to get rid of all measurable RF noise??  How can this be measured objectively??


I have 40 ferrites on my mains cable. I suppose they cost about £30. I got bored trying to detect a benefit a few months ago as I couldn't find a difference. Maybe I'll have another go. I don't have a way to measure this, except by listening.

Now playing: Hal Hartley - Amateur soundtrack


----------



## DMck2000

Jawed said:


> I think you probably need some expensive lab equipment to measure this.
> 
> It's easier to just put the ferrites on the cable. If you dislike the effect or there is no effect, then you've wasted less than £20...
> 
> ...


I've been hearing a lot about these ferrites, especially on Chord DAC threads. What do these "ferrites" look like. I haven't found a definite example of them on Google. All I know is that they are a Iron (III) Oxide compound mixed with Ceramic.


----------



## rayl

DMck2000 said:


> I've been hearing a lot about these ferrites, especially on Chord DAC threads. What do these "ferrites" look like. I haven't found a definite example of them on Google. All I know is that they are a Iron (III) Oxide compound mixed with Ceramic.



A non-controversial question for a change!  Here's the Wurth 2.5GHz that's one of the ones mentioned about (well, one of the 2... Worth comes in 2 sizes depending on cable diameter).

Cable goes through the middle and you close it. If you do buy Wurth and want to be able to remove it, don't forget to buy the removal "key" (2nd image)


----------



## doraymon

I found some degree of benefit using the QED Reference USB 0.3m from the Network Player t9 the DAC (not a Dave though!).
It has a ferrite jacket wrapping the whole length, a bit stiff but seems effective at list in my setup.


----------



## draytonklammer

Jawed said:


> Optical.
> 
> Now search the thread for "optical" to find out why. Hint: get the search results sorted with newest first and put Rob Watts as the poster.
> 
> ...



Maybe we should @ Rob and ask him if he still gives the edge to optical?


----------



## Jawed

DMck2000 said:


> I've been hearing a lot about these ferrites, especially on Chord DAC threads. What do these "ferrites" look like. I haven't found a definite example of them on Google. All I know is that they are a Iron (III) Oxide compound mixed with Ceramic.


This should help:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/does-chord-dave-system-need-a-dcc.809287/#post-13799263
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/does-chord-dave-system-need-a-dcc.809287/#post-13799263
Now playing: Koda - Staying


----------



## spotforscott

Recently purchased a DAVE with the hopes of getting a Blu2 at some point in the future. I also changed out my source completely in prep for DAVE arriving. I am running an uptone modded mac mini, synology NAS and full SoTM trifecta with clocking mod. However, in trying to set all of this up after the DAVE arrived, I have had some real technical snags getting the roon server (running on mini mac) to see my NAS. I am also have trouble getting sms200 to work with mini mac. Mini mac is brand new and I am ready to throw it out the window <lol>. Anyways, if anyone who is far more technical than I and has a similar setup, I would really appreciate your help and would be happy to pay for your time. I am in Toronto BTW in case there is someone local. Please PM me... thx


----------



## DMck2000

Thanks @rayl and @Jawed ! Sadly Jawed the link to the 10 ferrite core packs do not ship to the U.S. Though the USB Cable does. Will definitely look more into this. Seems like a good way to get rid of RF noise and other interferences at a cheap cost.


----------



## rayl

DMck2000 said:


> Thanks @rayl and @Jawed ! Sadly Jawed the link to the 10 ferrite core packs do not ship to the U.S. Though the USB Cable does. Will definitely look more into this. Seems like a good way to get rid of RF noise and other interferences at a cheap cost.



If you're interested in to-specification ones with data sheets (like the Wurths), you can get them from DigiKey or other electronic parts distributors in the U.S.  If you want to try a grab bag for a cheaper price, you can order from various sellers on Amazon.


----------



## DMck2000

rayl said:


> If you're interested in to-specification ones with data sheets (like the Wurths), you can get them from DigiKey or other electronic parts distributors in the U.S.  If you want to try a grab bag for a cheaper price, you can order from various sellers on Amazon.


Thanks for the help! Will definitely look into those options...


----------



## dmance

I live in Canada and there are multiple options for Wurth ferrites.

As per recommendation from R.Watts, I used Wurth 74271633 (100Mhz-2.5Ghz) and Wurth 74271131 (1Mhz-1Ghz), both sized to fit well around my USB cable. Dont forget to order the key so you can remove and mix and match for best effect.


----------



## doraymon

dmance said:


> I live in Canada and there are multiple options for Wurth ferrites.
> 
> As per recommendation from R.Watts, I used Wurth 74271633 (100Mhz-2.5Ghz) and Wurth 74271131 (1Mhz-1Ghz), both sized to fit well around my USB cable. Dont forget to order the key so you can remove and mix and match for best effect.


Thanks! Would you mind sharing a picture of the final result on the cable?


----------



## Savage4

After owning a black dave for 5 months I discovered a possibility major design flaw (also could just be my unit). Basically if you use Dave in Dac mode and in pre-amp mode with -3db gain there is a strong distortion in just one particular frequency. I don’t have enough training to tell what frequency but I tried multiple sound tracks and I’m sure it is there. The solution I find is that you need to decrease the gain to smaller than -13db and increase the gain of your separate amp. In this way that distortion disappears. 
My setup: Aurender N100– usb — Dave — multiple amps — multiple headphones.
Also I guess it could be the output from Aurender has too large a value or has that particular distortion at that frequency.


----------



## Triode User

Savage4 said:


> After owning a black dave for 5 months I discovered a possibility major design flaw (also could just be my unit). Basically if you use Dave in Dac mode and in pre-amp mode with -3db gain there is a strong distortion in just one particular frequency. I don’t have enough training to tell what frequency but I tried multiple sound tracks and I’m sure it is there. The solution I find is that you need to decrease the gain to smaller than -13db and increase the gain of your separate amp. In this way that distortion disappears.
> My setup: Aurender N100– usb — Dave — multiple amps — multiple headphones.
> Also I guess it could be the output from Aurender has too large a value or has that particular distortion at that frequency.



I would have a strong suspicion that -3db Dave output is simply too high for your amp and you are getting clipping distortion in the amp. In this case it is not a Dave design flaw but merely that your amp has a lower input requirement than normal. Because the issue is solved by turning Dave down to -13dB it sort of confirms the suspicion although that does seem quite low. Leave Dave at -13dB and move on?


----------



## Savage4

Triode User said:


> I would have a strong suspicion that -3db Dave output is simply too high for your amp and you are getting clipping distortion in the amp. In this case it is not a Dave design flaw but merely that your amp has a lower input requirement than normal. Because the issue is solved by turning Dave down to -13dB it sort of confirms the suspicion although that does seem quite low. Leave Dave at -13dB and move on?


 

I tried one speaker build-in amp with adjustable input impedance and one headphone amp so I don’t think it’s my amps.


----------



## Triode User

Savage4 said:


> I tried one speaker build-in amp with adjustable input impedance and one headphone amp so I don’t think it’s my amps.



I assume you mean that the speaker with the built in amp has adjustable input sensitivity and not adjustable input impedance.

Your experiment might just mean that the speaker with the built in amp and your headphone amp both have relatively low maximum input voltages and that both are being driven into clipping and are distorting which is what you hear on some notes. Some amplifiers state what their maximum input levels are.

I am afraid I cannot remember what the Dave output voltage is at -3dB but I still suspect it is simply too high for both your headphone amp and the speaker with the built in amp.


----------



## lojay

Savage4 said:


> After owning a black dave for 5 months I discovered a possibility major design flaw (also could just be my unit). Basically if you use Dave in Dac mode and in pre-amp mode with -3db gain there is a strong distortion in just one particular frequency. I don’t have enough training to tell what frequency but I tried multiple sound tracks and I’m sure it is there. The solution I find is that you need to decrease the gain to smaller than -13db and increase the gain of your separate amp. In this way that distortion disappears.
> My setup: Aurender N100– usb — Dave — multiple amps — multiple headphones.
> Also I guess it could be the output from Aurender has too large a value or has that particular distortion at that frequency.



It is likely to be your particular unit. When I received my first Dave, I used the Hifiman HE1000 and HE6 with the headphone output. After a while, serious distortion on loud passages manifested itself in the right channel. The distortion sounded like clipping. I emailed Chord's customer support who noted that the Hifiman headphones are very power hungry and are probably tripping the current protection on one side sooner than the other. The problem was fixed ultimately and my current unit (a replacement) has no discernable distortion even when driving loudspeakers through the RCA outputs. You may wish to contact Chord to inspect your unit.


----------



## x RELIC x

@Savage4, -3dB is 3Vrms which is very ‘hot’ for most amps. I wouldn’t say it’s a design flaw in the DAVE other than the default fixed output on all Chord DACs is high. Most amps expect around 2Vrms or lower.

Do you have any information/documentation stating the max Vrms Input your amps can handle? Conversely you can contact Chord to rule out / problem solve any fault with the DAVE.


----------



## jonstatt

Why is there a visible PCM plus and DSD mode that is even a user option? Why isn't it just an automatically selected DSD optimal mode and PCM optimal mode? Then that would free up a menu option meaning the crossfeed menu wouldn't be hidden  when headphones were not connected.


----------



## rayl

jonstatt said:


> Why is there a visible PCM plus and DSD mode that is even a user option? Why isn't it just an automatically selected DSD optimal mode and PCM optimal mode? Then that would free up a menu option meaning the crossfeed menu wouldn't be hidden  when headphones were not connected.



Different code gets loaded onto fpga. Both cannot fit simultaneously.


----------



## jonstatt

rayl said:


> Different code gets loaded onto fpga. Both cannot fit simultaneously.



I understand but it could still auto switch couldn't it?


----------



## rayl

jonstatt said:


> I understand but it could still auto switch couldn't it?



It would take 10s of seconds to reboot. Not the best user experience if it were automatic.


----------



## Rob Watts

And that was the reason why I rejected auto switchover - losing nearly 20 seconds of music whilst it switches over was unacceptable.

My initial plan was to do it in 100 mS - but I could not get the DC servo to re-lock - so the delay is down to allowing the DC servo to reset the DC to zero - otherwise one would get loud bangs. And I tried lots of ways around this issue, but none was satisfactory.


----------



## hmartin

Rob Watts said:


> And that was the reason why I rejected auto switchover - losing nearly 20 seconds of music whilst it switches over was unacceptable.
> 
> My initial plan was to do it in 100 mS - but I could not get the DC servo to re-lock - so the delay is down to allowing the DC servo to reset the DC to zero - otherwise one would get loud bangs. And I tried lots of ways around this issue, but none was satisfactory.


Does this mean that it would be quick to change code in a separate M-Scaler.

It would for example be very nice to automatically pick reconstruction for different inputs, i.e. pick full 1 M taps for the USB and then have a BNC/optical for TV-decoder and Blu-ray and automatically pick minimum phase low latency for those inputs?


----------



## jonstatt

Rob Watts said:


> And that was the reason why I rejected auto switchover - losing nearly 20 seconds of music whilst it switches over was unacceptable.
> 
> My initial plan was to do it in 100 mS - but I could not get the DC servo to re-lock - so the delay is down to allowing the DC servo to reset the DC to zero - otherwise one would get loud bangs. And I tried lots of ways around this issue, but none was satisfactory.



Thanks for clarifying Rob. Incidentally talking of loud bangs, I have noticed that if I switch off the power at the back of DAVE while music is still playing I get loud static out of the headphone socket. It isn't loud enough to damage anything but it gave me a fright when I still had the cans on my head. Now I always make sure I stop the music first.


----------



## Triode User

jonstatt said:


> Thanks for clarifying Rob. Incidentally talking of loud bangs, I have noticed that if I switch off the power at the back of DAVE while music is still playing I get loud static out of the headphone socket. It isn't loud enough to damage anything but it gave me a fright when I still had the cans on my head. Now I always make sure I stop the music first.



Yeah, I did that once with my power amps still turned on. I thought the speaker cones were going to hit me in the face!! That will teach me to ignore the golden rule of switching off amps BEFORE switching off any source devices (and I didn't have music playing). No harm done though.


----------



## rayl

Triode User said:


> Yeah, I did that once with my power amps still turned on. I thought the speaker cones were going to hit me in the face!! That will teach me to ignore the golden rule of switching off amps BEFORE switching off any source devices (and I didn't have music playing). No harm done though.



This fact pattern seems to be the classic DC pop when something is first connected to an already powered amp (or pre-amp).

But if playing music vs not matters -- that sounds like something different.

Isn't there an old saying in the recording world that says every time you make a DC pop, a sound engineer somewhere dies....?


----------



## STR-1

Rob, while I would be interested to know your views on what the main challenges are for you to overcome to take your dacs on to the next level, I realise that would be asking you to show your hand far more than you would want to.  Instead, can I ask what developments you would like to see from component/cable manufacturers etc that would make your life easier as a dac designer.


----------



## Rob Watts

hmartin said:


> Does this mean that it would be quick to change code in a separate M-Scaler.
> 
> It would for example be very nice to automatically pick reconstruction for different inputs, i.e. pick full 1 M taps for the USB and then have a BNC/optical for TV-decoder and Blu-ray and automatically pick minimum phase low latency for those inputs?



Different latency for video is already on the Blu 2, so it's easy to do.



STR-1 said:


> Rob, while I would be interested to know your views on what the main challenges are for you to overcome to take your dacs on to the next level, I realise that would be asking you to show your hand far more than you would want to.  Instead, can I ask what developments you would like to see from component/cable manufacturers etc that would make your life easier as a dac designer.



Yes - hopefully see my posts in a few years time about new DAC developements!

As for digital and mains cables - my job is to try to eliminate sensitivities, so that any old cable will work. As far as analogue cables goes, then there are things that can be done to reduce sensitivity, but only to a limited extent.

Rob


----------



## supabayes

lojay said:


> It is likely to be your particular unit. When I received my first Dave, I used the Hifiman HE1000 and HE6 with the headphone output. After a while, serious distortion on loud passages manifested itself in the right channel. The distortion sounded like clipping. I emailed Chord's customer support who noted that the Hifiman headphones are very power hungry and are probably tripping the current protection on one side sooner than the other. The problem was fixed ultimately and my current unit (a replacement) has no discernable distortion even when driving loudspeakers through the RCA outputs. You may wish to contact Chord to inspect your unit.


Thanks for sharing this. I have the same distortion/clipping using the Dave headphone out with HE1000 and HE6. Mine is for the left channel. The problem does not happen with Senn HD650. I am going to check with Chord customer support.


----------



## rgs9200m

So, I have a big library with both regular 16/44 redbook files and (many) dsf files (which I listen to with my DAVE in DSD mode, where they sound best to me).
So I switch between PCM+ and DSD mode frequently.
How would I integrate a Blu2 into this setup?


----------



## miketlse

rgs9200m said:


> So, I have a big library with both regular 16/44 redbook files and (many) dsf files (which I listen to with my DAVE in DSD mode, where they sound best to me).
> So I switch between PCM+ and DSD mode frequently.
> How would I integrate a Blu2 into this setup?


Here are nearly 200 pages of users talking about the Blu2 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/


----------



## Jawed

DMck2000 said:


> Thanks @rayl and @Jawed ! Sadly Jawed the link to the 10 ferrite core packs do not ship to the U.S. Though the USB Cable does. Will definitely look more into this. Seems like a good way to get rid of RF noise and other interferences at a cheap cost.


The USB cable is by an American company so you'll find that on Amazon.com. The ferrites are also on Amazon.com:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01E6PLXXC

The 5mm ferrites (which I use) do fit on the TrippLite cable but it's a very tight fit (causes sore fingers). So that's why I recommend 7mm inner diameter.

If you find there's an improvement with this setup, then buy another 20 ferrites and then just forget about any more tweaking. The key here is that lots of them work better than just a few.

I also use the twin Jitterbug setup that Audioquest recommends. Lots of ferrites were a vastly greater improvement than the Jitterbugs.

If you can connect just an optical cable to your DAVE (unplug all other digital sources you might have) this will give you the reference sound quality for your USB tweaking. 

When you buy ferrites from Amazon it's a lucky dip, because the filtering characteristics are unknown. But no one has identified the best filtering characteristics for ferrites that go on a USB cable, so what can you do? Worse, when you do find the characteristics the data presented cuts off usually at very low frequencies like 100MHz. 

Theoretically a mixture of ferrites is best to attack various frequency ranges, e.g. 100MHz and 1GHz. The 1GHz ferrites should be placed closer to DAVE than the 100MHz ones. Alternatively, just put a ridiculous number of them on your cable. It's not as if you'll be wearing the cable like a necklace, so it really doesn't matter if it looks strange. A longer USB cable is actually an advantage, since it will allow you to put a ridiculous number of ferrites on the cable. (I actually have 66 on the Tripp Lite cable, including the 2 that are built in, covering the entire length, just because I can.)

Fair-Rite is the most famous company that makes ferrites as far as I can tell and the range of products is huge. You can buy these on Amazon, e.g. here's one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005S45EWC

Very expensive, but in theory you know the characteristics. If you're feeling adventurous you can buy a large variety and then do listening tests to work out which ferrite characteristics are the best. I suspect 1GHz+ is preferable and there's not much choice of those, so it's up to you how tweaky you want to be. Specialist electronics suppliers should be a lot cheaper for Fair-Rite. Würth is another company that you could investigate.

I went for the brute force solution instead, which happens to sound the same as optical, i.e. it does exactly what I want.

Now playing: Dire Straits - Why Worry


----------



## ray-dude

Jawed said:


> I went for the brute force solution instead, which happens to sound the same as optical, i.e. it does exactly what I want.



+10 (or in my case, +40 Topnisus ferrites on my 2m TrippLite USB cable)  Gets me VERY close to what I hear from the CD on my Blu2

That being said, everyone's system is different, and will have different RF challenges and strengths.  What works for @Jawed and me may not work for someone else.  Good news is that these are so cheap, that it is quick and easy to try and see what works for you.


----------



## Jawed

ray-dude said:


> +10 (or in my case, +40 Topnisus ferrites on my 2m TrippLite USB cable)  Gets me VERY close to what I hear from the CD on my Blu2


I think Rob said that he had to compromise on the strength of the filtering on the BNC outputs of Blu 2, otherwise the connection became unreliable.

So I suppose that means that the USB input on Blu 2 has less effective filtering as far as DAVE is concerned than DAVE has on its own USB input. If true, then that might be why it requires so much filtering on the USB into Blu 2.

Well it seems likely you have space on your USB cable for more ferrites...

Now playing: Till Brönner and Dieter Ilg - Eleanor Rigby


----------



## Triode User

Jawed said:


> Now playing: Till Brönner and Dieter Ilg - Eleanor Rigby



Did you pick up that from my post? Hope you like it. Did you see the first track is a Leonard Cohen one?


----------



## ray-dude

Jawed said:


> So I suppose that means that the USB input on Blu 2 has less effective filtering as far as DAVE is concerned than DAVE has on its own USB input. If true, then that might be why it requires so much filtering on the USB into Blu 2.



I found the USB input on the DAVE (no Blu2) to be VERY robust.  Still could hear fine differences, but there was a much bigger lift in performance to be had through the Blu2 USB.  Whether this is due to filtering in the Blu2 vs things being easier to hear because of the increased resolution of the Blu2 vs both vs neither, I can't say.  I can say that with BluDAVE, good hygiene on the USB paid big dividends with my digital source.

(and yes, I have room for 20 more ferrites, but my ferrite shame overcame my ferrite lust when I couldn't hear any changes past ~30 ferrites


----------



## Jawed

Triode User said:


> Did you pick up that from my post? Hope you like it. Did you see the first track is a Leonard Cohen one?


Yes, I thought I'd cue it up on Spotify. Just finished listening to it for the second time. Favourite so far is Scream & Shout.

I've never been interested by Leonard Cohen, so, erm ...

Now playing: Niklaus Paschburg - Spark


----------



## Beolab (Mar 14, 2018)

*Last call for the Group Buy on the
Clearer Audio Silver Reference Coax digital

( Oppertunity for DAVE + Blu II owners ) 

New Deadline for the group buy is 20/3-2018 and it will not be post phoned. *

If we order 5-10 pairs 2x BNC from Clearer Audio ,then Darren will give us *20% in discount* at checkout.

( If we buy more than 10 pairs then he can stretch it slightly more, but he said that the margin is not that high because of the already fairly low price, and because of the expensive 6N silver he is using. )

When we have reached 5 or more members who are willing to goahead and purchase
2x CA Silver Reference BNC - BNC, then i will contact Darren at Clearer Audio, and then afterwords each of you can e-mail Darren at enquiries@cleareraudio.com with the lenght you need and your other details to complete the purchase with 20%  discount.

Please PM If you are interested!

More info in the Blu II thread: 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-195


----------



## draytonklammer

Anyone have thought regarding Dave + Stax 007 mk1?

Considering picking one up .


----------



## tunes

I have these 

https://darko.audio/2010/09/omega-super-6-alnico-xrs-extended-room-speakers/

and thinking about adding a pair of

These http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F8.html

Each sub runs off XLR left and right outputs on the DAVE.  

Will adding two subs to the DAVE affect in any way the RCA output quality to the main speakers run direct??


----------



## ZappaMan

Triode User said:


> Did you pick up that from my post? Hope you like it. Did you see the first track is a Leonard Cohen one?


I listened to nightfall, it’s a keeper, nice and relaxing, interesting to hear the way they recorded the trumpet, the microphone must have been very close.


----------



## Triode User

ZappaMan said:


> I listened to nightfall, it’s a keeper, nice and relaxing, interesting to hear the way they recorded the trumpet, the microphone must have been very close.



Ah, a happy customer.


----------



## STR-1

Rob Watts said:


> Yes - hopefully see my posts in a few years time about new DAC developements!
> 
> As for digital and mains cables - my job is to try to eliminate sensitivities, so that any old cable will work. As far as analogue cables goes, then there are things that can be done to reduce sensitivity, but only to a limited extent.
> 
> Rob



Thanks, Rob.  No doubt you would be delighted to see more powerful and more energy-efficient FPGAs that cost rather less than today’s models, but I’m also wondering what benefits some of the more exotic materials like graphine might bring to audio equipment design in the near future.


----------



## tunes

lojay said:


> It is likely to be your particular unit. When I received my first Dave, I used the Hifiman HE1000 and HE6 with the headphone output. After a while, serious distortion on loud passages manifested itself in the right channel. The distortion sounded like clipping. I emailed Chord's customer support who noted that the Hifiman headphones are very power hungry and are probably tripping the current protection on one side sooner than the other. The problem was fixed ultimately and my current unit (a replacement) has no discernable distortion even when driving loudspeakers through the RCA outputs. You may wish to contact Chord to inspect your unit.


I have one on order.  Have HEKV2. 

How should I test my new unit to see if mine is defective?!   What track, song, volume setting would bring this problem out??  


Hope it has been addressed with QC Department!!


----------



## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> Did you pick up that from my post? Hope you like it. Did you see the first track is a Leonard Cohen one?



That’s a lovely album, beautiful horn playing and utterly rock solid visceral bass. Been listening to it quite a bit. Pure music making. (And, just in case you’re interested, available in hires on Qobuz).


----------



## ray-dude

tunes said:


> I have these
> 
> https://darko.audio/2010/09/omega-super-6-alnico-xrs-extended-room-speakers/
> 
> ...



I am running the Voxativ 9.87's with my BluDAVE direct.  RCA outs on DAVE are driving the high efficiency single driver Pi units, and DAVE XLR outputs on DAVE are driving the two powered bass units.  I have not heard any change in sound quality when the bass units are connected or not connected


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> That’s a lovely album, beautiful horn playing and utterly rock solid visceral bass. Been listening to it quite a bit. Pure music making. (And, just in case you’re interested, available in hires on Qobuz).



Yes, I have taken out the year subscription to Qobuz that gives hires streaming and a discount on hires downloads so I have bought the hires download. I got fed up with Tidal and the MQA on its Masters but that’s a discussion for another time and another place.


----------



## tunes

ray-dude said:


> I am running the Voxativ 9.87's with my BluDAVE direct.  RCA outs on DAVE are driving the high efficiency single driver Pi units, and DAVE XLR outputs on DAVE are driving the two powered bass units.  I have not heard any change in sound quality when the bass units are connected or not connected


Wow—

That set up with Voxativ 9.87 DAVE/BLUE direct must sound amazing.  For over $35K for the speakers alone, are you convinced it is better than any power amp with high end conventional 3 way speakers like Wilson’s or B & W etc?
How does your system sound with full scale symphonies, dynamic rock etc.  is there anything you don’t like about the Pi?


----------



## doraymon

doraymon said:


> Checking in as the journey to acquire (...one day...) a Dave just commenced.
> 
> Phase 1: Sell all the unused gear (started yesterday with the sale of my Hugo2)
> Phase 2: Find a seller/retailer and bargain to death
> ...


Apologies for quoting my own post but I wanted to share with you my achievements on this project.
I “Fast & Furious-ed” my way to the target and 4 days after the start I have already sold 5 pieces of my gear and reached the target quota to finance the purchase.
The rest is cash.
Unfortunately I’ll have to wait 2 weeks before putting my hands on the black beauty.
sorry again for this useless post, but you are the only ones that can understand my excitement!


----------



## Sleepow

doraymon said:


> Apologies for quoting my own post but I wanted to share with you my achievements on this project.
> I “Fast & Furious-ed” my way to the target and 4 days after the start I have already sold 5 pieces of my gear and reached the target quota to finance the purchase.
> The rest is cash.
> Unfortunately I’ll have to wait 2 weeks before putting my hands on the black beauty.
> sorry again for this useless post, but you are the only ones that can understand my excitement!



I hear you: my journey will be:
Phase 1: sell my wife's unused gear: Hermes and Dior bags
Phase 2: find a dealer in France to get a better price than in Japan and pick it on my next trip home
Phase 3: pray for my wife to never open her bag boxes....
Phase 4: pretend I need to re-arrange the living room so that the appearance of a new grey box is less obvious


----------



## doraymon

Sleepow said:


> I hear you: my journey will be:
> Phase 1: sell my wife's unused gear: Hermes and Dior bags
> Phase 2: find a dealer in France to get a better price than in Japan and pick it on my next trip home
> Phase 3: pray for my wife to never open her bag boxes....
> Phase 4: pretend I need to re-arrange the living room so that the appearance of a new grey box is less obvious


LOL!
Phase 4 killed me, I hear you!


----------



## spotforscott

Sleepow said:


> I hear you: my journey will be:
> Phase 1: sell my wife's unused gear: Hermes and Dior bags
> Phase 2: find a dealer in France to get a better price than in Japan and pick it on my next trip home
> Phase 3: pray for my wife to never open her bag boxes....
> Phase 4: pretend I need to re-arrange the living room so that the appearance of a new grey box is less obvious


LOL, OMG, too funny. Thanks for the laugh. I can totally relate


----------



## ray-dude

tunes said:


> Wow—
> 
> That set up with Voxativ 9.87 DAVE/BLUE direct must sound amazing.  For over $35K for the speakers alone, are you convinced it is better than any power amp with high end conventional 3 way speakers like Wilson’s or B & W etc?
> How does your system sound with full scale symphonies, dynamic rock etc.  is there anything you don’t like about the Pi?



My beloved B&W 802d3's are sitting to the side of the room and posted for sale (*sniff*), and my Classe and Benchmark amps are sold already...hopefully that answers your question 

Still tweaking/tuning everything, starting speaker cables this week, still more positioning experiments to do, power tweaks in the queue.  Delighted so far, not missing the B&Ws in the slightest, huge step up from the Omegas.  I only have these things partially dialed in right now, so there is more to squeeze out of them.  Taking notes and keeping a journal of the process and impressions, so I'll be sure to write up when I get to a stable point.


----------



## draytonklammer

Hey guys, so I'm considering grabbing some Totem loudspeakers so I won't just be running my Abyss Phi anymore.

Can the Dave potentially drive them itself, or would it be better to use it as both the DAC and preamp stage before a power amp?

Can the Dave be both the DAC and preamp stage or will I need to go grab a preamp?

Thanks! These speakers would be replacing my Martin Logan's.


----------



## x RELIC x

draytonklammer said:


> Hey guys, so I'm considering grabbing some Totem loudspeakers so I won't just be running my Abyss Phi anymore.
> 
> Can the Dave potentially drive them itself, or would it be better to use it as both the DAC and preamp stage before a power amp?
> 
> ...



Depends on the efficiency of the Totems, room size, preferred listening level, etc.. any more info to help with recommendations?

The DAVE can be both DAC and pre-amp.


----------



## tunes

ray-dude said:


> My beloved B&W 802d3's are sitting to the side of the room and posted for sale (*sniff*), and my Classe and Benchmark amps are sold already...hopefully that answers your question
> 
> Still tweaking/tuning everything, starting speaker cables this week, still more positioning experiments to do, power tweaks in the queue.  Delighted so far, not missing the B&Ws in the slightest, huge step up from the Omegas.  I only have these things partially dialed in right now, so there is more to squeeze out of them.  Taking notes and keeping a journal of the process and impressions, so I'll be sure to write up when I get to a stable point.


Please keep us posted and let everyone know what tweaks brought you to Nirvana. Also, tell where you purchased the speakers system and what you paid. Will be saving up for it.  “huge step up from the Omegas” ... they better be at 55 x the price!  Also, could you easily hear a major difference between DAVE alone and DAVE + Blu with your Alnico’s versus the Pi?


----------



## marcmccalmont

AndrewOld said:


> That’s a lovely album, beautiful horn playing and utterly rock solid visceral bass. Been listening to it quite a bit. Pure music making. (And, just in case you’re interested, available in hires on Qobuz).


What’s the name of the album?


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> What’s the name of the album?



The album is called Nightfall by Till Bronner and Diete Ilg. It is very high on the Qobuz download and streaming chart, maybe because of Head-Fi purchases?


----------



## marcmccalmont

Triode User said:


> The album is called Nightfall by Till Bronner and Diete Ilg. It is very high on the Qobuz download and streaming chart, maybe because of Head-Fi purchases?


Thanks got it on tidal!


----------



## doraymon

Does anyone know what is Dave’s XLR output voltage?


----------



## Rob Watts

Set to -3dB its 6V RMS + and -. Clipping is at 13.6V RMS. OP impedance is 33 ohms...


----------



## x RELIC x (Mar 16, 2018)

doraymon said:


> Does anyone know what is Dave’s XLR output voltage?



Maximum, or in line level mode? For line level mode (DACmode) it’s 6Vrms, double the SE output. You can always use Pre-amp mode which is the same circuit but with volume control to decrease it if you want to. I decrease mine to -6dB on the volume to feed my Liquid Gold XLR input to be safe regarding overloading the amp.

Also be aware that XLR is really intended to feed an amp as it can only output 50mA of Current.

The max for the XLR is 12Vrms, which is double the SE 6Vrms.



Rob Watts said:


> Yes Dave has same headphone OP as line level like Hugo. XLR is up to 12v RMS but is not intended to drive headphones. RCA is up to 6v RMS.
> 
> Rob



Edit: aaaaand Rob beat me to it, lol.


----------



## AndrewOld (Mar 16, 2018)

marcmccalmont said:


> What’s the name of the album?



Nightfall by Tyll Brönner

And if you like musicianship like that, and you don’t have it already, have a listen to Beyond the Missouri Sky by Pat Metheny and Charlie Haden.


----------



## doraymon

Rob Watts said:


> Set to -3dB its 6V RMS + and -. Clipping is at 13.6V RMS. OP impedance is 33 ohms...





x RELIC x said:


> Maximum, or in line level mode? For line level mode (DACmode) it’s 6Vrms, double the SE output. You can always use Pre-amp mode which is the same circuit but with volume control to decrease it if you want to. I decrease mine to -6dB on the volume to feed my Liquid Gold XLR input to be safe regarding overloading the amp.
> 
> Also be aware that XLR is really intended to feed an amp as it can only output 50mA of Current.
> 
> ...


Thanks both!
Yes the intention would be to feed an amp.
My amp can take max 3.2Vrms or 6.4Vrms with attenuator on.
So I could run the Dave at line level only switching the attenuator on or alternatively in pre amp mode at lower volume levels.


----------



## rkt31

chord mojo directly playing my diy 5 inch single full range driver sealed box speakers. drivers are without whizzer cones. audio and video recorded through seperate devices. ignore clipping at few places.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Mar 16, 2018)

AndrewOld said:


> Nightfall by Tyll Brönner
> 
> And if you like musicianship like that, and you don’t have it already, have a listen to Beyond the Missouri Sky by Pat Metheny


----------



## AndrewOld

marcmccalmont said:


> Easier with tidal to find an album name?



“Beyond the Missouri Sky” is the album name! (Or “Nightfall”for the one we were originally talking about)


----------



## marcmccalmont (Mar 16, 2018)

marcmccalmont said:


> Easier with tidal to find an album name?





AndrewOld said:


> “Beyond the Missouri Sky” is the album name! (Or “Nightfall”for the one we were originally talking about)


Thanks found it! Since you like double bass I really like Rob Wasserman. Try his album Trios, Dustin off the Bass if your into Chicago Blues


----------



## ecwl

doraymon said:


> Thanks both!
> Yes the intention would be to feed an amp.
> My amp can take max 3.2Vrms or 6.4Vrms with attenuator on.
> So I could run the Dave at line level only switching the attenuator on or alternatively in pre amp mode at lower volume levels.


Actually, if you have no other source, the best theoretical performance you can get is to run RCA in from DAVE without the attenuators on. And you should try to find the optimal level for your preamp analog volume control which is usually midway. Optimal means at that setting, there is the least distortion, perfect channel balance (volume-wise) although without actual measurements, it’s actually close to impossible to do by ear. And then you would use DAVE’s digital volume control to maximize transparency of your system, assuming that even at maximum -3dB, DAVE is loud enough for your setup. Of course bypassing external headphone amps and using DAVE would even be more transparent but that’s a different issue.


----------



## iDesign (Mar 16, 2018)

Rob Watts said:


> Yes - hopefully see my posts in a few years time about new DAC developements
> Rob


How much more time does the DAVE have? The QBD76, Hugo, and 2Qute were replaced by a newer model in an average of approximately 1,500 days. The DAVE has been available for over 1,000 days and I’m wondering how much more life it has before we will see a new version? I imagine most DAVE owners would prefer to see a firmware update than the sting of an all new version.


----------



## doraymon

ecwl said:


> Actually, if you have no other source, the best theoretical performance you can get is to run RCA in from DAVE without the attenuators on. And you should try to find the optimal level for your preamp analog volume control which is usually midway. Optimal means at that setting, there is the least distortion, perfect channel balance (volume-wise) although without actual measurements, it’s actually close to impossible to do by ear. And then you would use DAVE’s digital volume control to maximize transparency of your system, assuming that even at maximum -3dB, DAVE is loud enough for your setup. Of course bypassing external headphone amps and using DAVE would even be more transparent but that’s a different issue.


Thanks!
The idea is to use Dave both as DAC only and DAC/headphone amp as well. I like to experiment and I learned that my preference changes with the kind of music I am playing. Of course I expect the straight out of the Dave solution to deliver the best transparency but I want to use the external amp as well.
So if I use the external amp it’s better to use it without attenuators? Just to see if I understand what you are suggesting, using the RCA out (SE) the Dave in line out mode should output 3Vrms which is within the maximum accepted by the amp, right?


----------



## ecwl

doraymon said:


> Just to see if I understand what you are suggesting, using the RCA out (SE) the Dave in line out mode should output 3Vrms which is within the maximum accepted by the amp, right?


No. The low level linearity, transparency, channel matching would all be inferior with your amp’s analog volume control. That’s why I don’t think you should feed DAVE at 3V to your amp and then the volume control knob on your amp. I think you should guess where your amp’s analog volume control is the most linear with the least distortion and best channel balance which is usually around the middle (aka. 12 o’clock) and then just fix the analog volume control there. You then control your volume with DAVE’s digital volume control which may actually feed 2V or 1V or even significantly less into your amp because that’s your volume control. Hope that makes sense


----------



## doraymon

ecwl said:


> No. The low level linearity, transparency, channel matching would all be inferior with your amp’s analog volume control. That’s why I don’t think you should feed DAVE at 3V to your amp and then the volume control knob on your amp. I think you should guess where your amp’s analog volume control is the most linear with the least distortion and best channel balance which is usually around the middle (aka. 12 o’clock) and then just fix the analog volume control there. You then control your volume with DAVE’s digital volume control which may actually feed 2V or 1V or even significantly less into your amp because that’s your volume control. Hope that makes sense


Ok clear now, yes it makes sense.
Thanks, the coming two weeks waiting for the Dave to arrive are going to be endless...
My cabinet looks so lonely waiting for Dave...


----------



## flyte3333 (Mar 17, 2018)

Hi @Rob Watts

When adding a Blu2 to Dave (using Blu2's USB input), is a lot of the SQ improvement due to moving WTA filter #1 out of Dave's housing? And therefore reducing the DSP cores activities inside Dave, near the analogue stage inside Dave?

A little like how a lot of HQPlayer and Roon users have founds improvements with up-sampling before their non-Chord DACs? i.e. the DAC is having to do less 'work' internally with up-sampling.

Obviously the 1million taps is also a difference & factor for the SQ improvement when adding Blu2  to Dave. But when the taps were the same as Dave and the only difference was moving WTA filter #1 before the Dave input, did you find SQ improvements during development?

I'm also guessing you did as much as possible to shield Dave's FPGA and DSP cores from the analogue stage, to reduce potential for RF interference inside Dave itself?

Cheers


----------



## Rob Watts

Em2016 said:


> Hi @Rob Watts
> 
> When adding a Blu2 to Dave (using Blu2's USB input), is a lot of the SQ improvement due to moving WTA filter #1 out of Dave's housing? And therefore reducing the DSP cores activities inside Dave, near the analogue stage inside Dave?
> 
> ...



Short answer: no. Never use up-sampling from your source into one of my DAC's, even a Mojo; up-samplers do not have the processing power, nor do they have the WTA algorithm. 

Longer answer: there is a small SQ improvement in using two Dave's cascaded together from the DX output of Dave; but compared to the huge change an M scaler makes, this is tiny. And yes a huge amount of work went into isolating the noise from the FPGA - I would not have achieved Dave's measurements without it.


----------



## flyte3333

Rob Watts said:


> Short answer: no. Never use up-sampling from your source into one of my DAC's, even a Mojo; up-samplers do not have the processing power, nor do they have the WTA algorithm.



Noted Rob - I definitely didn't mean up-sampling before Chord DACs. I meant the mechanisms for improved SQ when up-sampling before some other DACs, i.e. less 'work' done internally with some of these DACs resulting in improved SQ. I've played with up-sampling before Hugo2 , up to 768kHz, therefore bypassing WTA filter #1 but obviously without WTA's goodness. I didn't really like the result, using either HQ Player and Roon so I much prefer bit perfect playback with your Mojo and Hugo2 (same with my PS Audio DirectStream).



Rob Watts said:


> Longer answer: there is a small SQ improvement in using two Dave's cascaded together from the DX output of Dave; but compared to the huge change an M scaler makes, this is tiny. And yes a huge amount of work went into isolating the noise from the FPGA - I would not have achieved Dave's measurements without it.



Very nice indeed. For nerds like myself that enjoy learning about this stuff, can you share some of the stuff (at a high level) you had to do to shield the huge horsepower of the big FPGA and whopping 166 DSP Cores, from the analogue stage. Just at a high level, if possible, to get a peep at what's required. 

And yep, the 'second to none' measurements really do speak for themselves and not up for debate obviously.


----------



## Rob Watts

I think the benefits of less "work" with the DAC are small compared to the changes that the filter itself makes. Of course, it varies much on circumstances!

It was more about extreme care in making sure each part of the digital domain of Dave was individually RF filtered, plus worrying about the return currents through the ground plane, and how that would upset the analogue domain, and at the layout stage being hyper careful. Plus the usual stuff - 2 dedicated ground planes, and I went thru huge efforts on the analogue input, in how that was decoupled but without introducing other problems. With Dave I had the luxury of plenty of time, plus the huge desire of making it the best DAC I could possibly design. And Chord were very patient about time and the number of prototypes needed to get it perfect.


----------



## flyte3333

Rob Watts said:


> I think the benefits of less "work" with the DAC are small compared to the changes that the filter itself makes. Of course, it varies much on circumstances!
> 
> It was more about extreme care in making sure each part of the digital domain of Dave was individually RF filtered, plus worrying about the return currents through the ground plane, and how that would upset the analogue domain, and at the layout stage being hyper careful. Plus the usual stuff - 2 dedicated ground planes, and I went thru huge efforts on the analogue input, in how that was decoupled but without introducing other problems. With Dave I had the luxury of plenty of time, plus the huge desire of making it the best DAC I could possibly design. And Chord were very patient about time and the number of prototypes needed to get it perfect.



Thanks Rob ! Some would be bored with these questions but for the nerds like me, it's fun reading!

Without giving any timeline, is there a plan for a future *Dave compatible* M-Scaler that doesn't have a CD transport, for those that don't need it?

Cheers!


----------



## doraymon

Sorry for the ignorance but how can the M Scaler improve Dave’s performance?
Provided that the digital source remains the same even up sampling will not increase the level of information contained in the signal.
How does the better filter come into play?
Again, apologies if my questions are naive but as an engineer myself I struggle to accep not understanding the logic behind...


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes the Davina project will be a Choral metalwork product - if that's what you mean by compatible... All new DAC's will accept an M scaler dual data output, as this for sure is the future - that's why Qutest and Hugo 2 both had the M scaler input capability.


----------



## flyte3333

Rob Watts said:


> if that's what you mean by compatible...



Sorry Rob - by compatible I thought that the future Qutest/Hugo2 specific M-Scaler would only work with those 2 products and wouldn't work with Dave i.e. a Hugo2 M-Scaler wouldn't be compatible with Dave.

If I have that wrong, it's happy days indeed for those like me that don't need the CD transport feature of Blu2.


----------



## Rob Watts

doraymon said:


> Sorry for the ignorance but how can the M Scaler improve Dave’s performance?
> Provided that the digital source remains the same even up sampling will not increase the level of information contained in the signal.
> How does the better filter come into play?
> Again, apologies if my questions are naive but as an engineer myself I struggle to accep not understanding the logic behind...



The non-technical (and actually the most important) is that it sounds hugely better - it's the change you can hear in 3 seconds, and the level of SQ change caught me completely by surprise - I knew more WTA taps would give a better sound quality, by I had no idea it would be so big.

The technical short answer is that the interpolation filter inside all DAC's is trying to reconstruct the bandwidth limited signal before it was sampled. To do this perfectly, you need a sinc function, but this needs an infinite number of taps. But the key to the WTA filter is that it is very close to an ideal sinc function - in the case of Dave, it is identical to ideal to an accuracy of 13.9 bits - what this means is that transients (and transients are a vital psychoacoustic cue) are reconstructed to an accuracy that is at least as good as this in all situations. With the M scaler, we get 16.6 bits accurate. My surprise was going from 13.9 to 16.6 would be so audible....


----------



## simorag (Mar 17, 2018)

Em2016 said:


> Without giving any timeline, is there a plan for a future *Dave compatible* M-Scaler that doesn't have a CD transport, for those that don't need it?



+1 here. I can see the compelling value proposition of the Blu2 as a transport + M-Scaler. However, I feel the 10kEuro pill hard to swallow when I think of it as a DAVE enhancement "only", as it would be in my case, having moved out of CDs many years ago.


----------



## doraymon

Rob Watts said:


> With the M scaler, we get 16.6 bits accurate. My surprise was going from 13.9 to 16.6 would be so audible....


So this will certainly be the future improvement integrated in the next generation of Dave.
If that happens before 12-18 months from now, please, please think of a way to make the pill easier to swallow for people like me buying the Dave today...
Not your job of course, maybe you can talk to John about it... 
Thanks for the explanation!


----------



## flyte3333 (Mar 17, 2018)

doraymon said:


> So this will certainly be the future improvement integrated in the next generation of Dave.



The M-Scaler is something external to Dave. So you should have no reservations buying a Dave today and then adding a future M-Scaler.


----------



## doraymon

Em2016 said:


> The M-Scaler is something external to Dave. So you should have no reservations buying a Dave today and then adding a future M-Scaler.


Yes, today it is external but tomorrow Chord might want to integrate the new design directly into a super-Dave.


----------



## flyte3333

doraymon said:


> Yes, today it is external but tomorrow Chord might want to integrate the new design directly into a super-Dave.



No question, but it depends on what "tomorrow" is. I think an M-Scaler and DAC, both inside one metal box, is a looong way away.

I am only guessing  (we won't get any confirmation from Chord and that's understandable) but I think it's reasonable to guess the 2-box solution will be the only M-Scaler solution, for at least a couple years.


----------



## doraymon

ecwl said:


> No. The low level linearity, transparency, channel matching would all be inferior with your amp’s analog volume control. That’s why I don’t think you should feed DAVE at 3V to your amp and then the volume control knob on your amp. I think you should guess where your amp’s analog volume control is the most linear with the least distortion and best channel balance which is usually around the middle (aka. 12 o’clock) and then just fix the analog volume control there. You then control your volume with DAVE’s digital volume control which may actually feed 2V or 1V or even significantly less into your amp because that’s your volume control. Hope that makes sense


One more doubt.
Is the suggestion of using RCA because for some reason she it’s a better output compared to XLR on Dave or its only to avoid using the amp’s attenuator?


----------



## Triode User

doraymon said:


> Yes, today it is external but tomorrow Chord might want to integrate the new design directly into a super-Dave.



_"Yes, today it is external but *tomorrow* Chord might want to integrate the new design directly into a super-Dave"_

Tomorrow? What do you know that we don't? That is how rumours start. On the other hand most new Dave owners seemed sufficiently reassured by the responses from a 'man that knows' that nothing was going to happen with Dave for quite a while.


----------



## Whazzzup

Hey TT first


----------



## doraymon

Triode User said:


> _"Yes, today it is external but *tomorrow* Chord might want to integrate the new design directly into a super-Dave"_
> 
> Tomorrow? What do you know that we don't? That is how rumours start. On the other hand most new Dave owners seemed sufficiently reassured by the responses from a 'man that knows' that nothing was going to happen with Dave for quite a while.


Lol no, I’m just guessing!
I wouldn’t buy a Dave today if I had that kind of information!


----------



## Triode User

doraymon said:


> One more doubt.
> Is the suggestion of using RCA because for some reason she it’s a better output compared to XLR on Dave or its only to avoid using the amp’s attenuator?



This is a simple one. The XLR output uses an additional amp stage to create the balanced output and that is why the simpler RCA output is agreed to be better quality. They both use the digital volume control so there is no difference there (or indeed any issues or concerns with that).

Hope that helps.


----------



## jonstatt

doraymon said:


> Yes, today it is external but tomorrow Chord might want to integrate the new design directly into a super-Dave.



@Rob Watts has suggested several times that the nearer future has other m-scaler products being launched but as separate devices (such as to why all new DAC products have dual coax inputs). Of course it is highly likely that as time passes it will be possible to get closer to BluDave performance for less money whether it be one box or two. But to exceed the performance of BluDave is likely a long time ahead.


----------



## doraymon

Whazzzup said:


> Hey TT first


I’ve been waiting for T4 so long that I decided to move to Dave...


----------



## Whitigir (Mar 17, 2018)

Triode User said:


> _"Yes, today it is external but *tomorrow* Chord might want to integrate the new design directly into a super-Dave"_
> 
> Tomorrow? What do you know that we don't? That is how rumours start. On the other hand most new Dave owners seemed sufficiently reassured by the responses from a 'man that knows' that nothing was going to happen with Dave for quite a while.



Won’t happen to the Dave, but is such man bound and limited to the ability to stop at Dave and strive for nothing better ? Who knows ? It could be TICDA (Top In Chord Digital-Analog) and priced at 25k as msrp


----------



## AndrewOld

iDesign said:


> How much more time does the DAVE have? The QBD76, Hugo, and 2Qute were replaced by a newer model in an average of approximately 1,500 days. The DAVE has been available for over 1,000 days and I’m wondering how much more life it has before we will see a new version? I imagine most DAVE owners would prefer to see a firmware update than the sting of an all new version.



Well, I would be delighted if there was a new version (though somehow I doubt it), but I would expect a fair upgrade price. Linn do this with their top end streamers - you can upgrade to the latest model and get the option of having the board from your earlier product recased in a simple case. A very decent solution, and environmentally responsible. Have to say I am not as impressed with Chord; iirc they promised their cd mech would be upgradeable, and it wasn’t.

But as everyone on here has got fed up with me saying, the best (and I hope the most imminent) upgrade for the DAVE will be an m-scaler without a cd mech. All those DAVE and Hugo2 and Qutest owners out there have products ready and waiting for it.


----------



## Whazzzup

doraymon said:


> I’ve been waiting for T4 so long that I decided to move to Dave...


I know we have little patience and high expectations in these matters. Personally I don’t care when tt2 is launched cause I love my system anyways but since tt launch that is only 2.5 years ago chord has developed. Mojo, Dave,ch2,poly, blumk2, qutest, with things like davina, 2go, M scaler on the books. 
Us tt mid price desktop users are a little neglected.  There is a massive mid market desktop base with all kinds of alternatives in the 3000-6000 price point.  They might want to shore up that market at some point.


----------



## Jawed

The power pulse array amplifier should be seen as the next high-end DAC after DAVE. It is intended to drive speakers. And should have a headphone output. It won't have the WTA stage 1 upsampler, so it must be fed by DAVE or Blu 2. There will be no USB input. Well that is how it was originally described - perhaps this has changed over the last couple of years - seems unlikely.

DAVE's pulse array is so good that WTA stage 1 needed to be improved, which is where M scaler comes in.

There is no sign of an FPGA being manufactured that costs the same as the FPGA in Hugo 2 that is powerful enough to use as an M scaler. When that FPGA arrives (years from now) it might also be the basis of a DAVE 2 to enable it to have built-in M scaler capability. Might.

So anyone hoping for either a replacement DAVE (e.g. with built-in M scaler) or an M scaler that costs about the same as Hugo 2 is going to be waiting years. Also, Davina and the range of power pulse array amplifiers are a higher priority.

You guys need to remember that all of these Chord DACs, since Hugo, exist solely because FPGA technology had pushed forward, bringing cheap, high performance and very high volume chips to companies like Chord (FPGAs are generally low volume). M scaler in Blu 2 exists because FPGAs had pushed forwards some more, and this particular FPGA is still pretty niche. It's reasonable to expect it'll be 2020 before an FPGA that can run the M scaler will be available for products costing about $2000. The AI revolution is likely to accelerate the use of FPGAs, hence lowering cost:

https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/03/13/growth-in-ai-driven-cloud-computing-can-supercharg.aspx

But it's still early days - those FPGAs cost $5000+.

If you want a better DAVE, buy Blu 2 to feed DAVE.

Now playing: Pink Floyd - If


----------



## statfi

dmance said:


> Rob Watts has been pretty clear that Dave's digital volume setting works in a way that does not degrade or deteriorate the output.


Could someone remind me of how that is implemented?


----------



## statfi

ecwl said:


> Optimal means at that setting, there is the least distortion, perfect channel balance (volume-wise)


Why "least distortion"?


----------



## marcmccalmont

AndrewOld said:


> “Beyond the Missouri Sky” is the album name! (Or “Nightfall”for the one we were originally talking about)


Wonderful!


----------



## marcmccalmont

Rob Watts said:


> The non-technical (and actually the most important) is that it sounds hugely better - it's the change you can hear in 3 seconds, and the level of SQ change caught me completely by surprise - I knew more WTA taps would give a better sound quality, by I had no idea it would be so big.
> 
> The technical short answer is that the interpolation filter inside all DAC's is trying to reconstruct the bandwidth limited signal before it was sampled. To do this perfectly, you need a sinc function, but this needs an infinite number of taps. But the key to the WTA filter is that it is very close to an ideal sinc function - in the case of Dave, it is identical to ideal to an accuracy of 13.9 bits - what this means is that transients (and transients are a vital psychoacoustic cue) are reconstructed to an accuracy that is at least as good as this in all situations. With the M scaler, we get 16.6 bits accurate. My surprise was going from 13.9 to 16.6 would be so audible....


 every so often I bypass Blu2 and go directly from my N10 into Dave just to remind myself!


----------



## dmance

@Jawed 
Despite rob watts claims that only fpga's can do M-Scaling, my guess is that super resolution audio courtesy of deep learning+AI will give us access to as high resolution audio as we want. The cloud has access to compute resources of a million fpga's to give us a computed WTA-like filter that matches the original analog ...with five hundred thousand songs for training.  So much is happening in the AI domain ...and so fast that I expect this capability in a streaming service anytime.
...Just my opinion.


----------



## jarnopp

Jawed said:


> The power pulse array amplifier should be seen as the next high-end DAC after DAVE. It is intended to drive speakers. And should have a headphone output. It won't have the WTA stage 1 upsampler, so it must be fed by DAVE or Blu 2. There will be no USB input. Well that is how it was originally described - perhaps this has changed over the last couple of years - seems unlikely.
> 
> DAVE's pulse array is so good that WTA stage 1 needed to be improved, which is where M scaler comes in.
> 
> ...



So, power pulse array fed by an m-scaler (maybe connected by optical HDMI) would be the next state of the art dac/amp?  Just needs a streamer to feed it, so I hope Chord is working on a home version of the Poly/2Go as well. 

“If” is a great song, BTW.


----------



## Mython (Mar 17, 2018)

dmance said:


> @Jawed
> Despite rob watts claims that only fpga's can do M-Scaling, my guess is that super resolution audio courtesy of deep learning+AI will give us access to as high resolution audio as we want. The cloud has access to compute resources of a million fpga's to give us a computed WTA-like filter that matches the original analog ...with five hundred thousand songs for training.  So much is happening in the AI domain ...and so fast that I expect this capability in a streaming service anytime.
> ...Just my opinion.



As ever, it's all about context. Without presuming to speak for him, I rather suspect Rob's remarks were within the context of _'FPGAs vs single personal computers running the likes of HQ Player software.'_


Context notwithstanding, you may be right about A.I.being used for audiophile purposes, at some point in the not-too-distant future, but I wouldn't bank on it becoming widely available within the next 10yrs, because, as one example, the big labels are (allegedly) already contemplating withdrawing their 24/192 catalogues from retail channels (because they allegedly want to retain a more pristine catalogue than they are making available to customers), and may resist the kind of scenario you describe from becoming commonplace. Then again... it may be out of their control...

Interesting times.


In any case, I'm curious: since the internet, and the cloud, are fundamentally in the digital domain, how do you propose that they can provide a more accurate analogue signal to the home audiophile/computer nerd than Rob's FPGA-based DAC methodology?


----------



## dmance

Mython said:


> ...
> In any case, I'm curious: since the internet, and the cloud, are fundamentally in the digital domain, how do you propose that they can provide a more accurate analogue signal to the home audiophile/computer nerd than Rob's FPGA-based DAC methodology?


Well this is well OT, but what I'm talking about is purely digital streams from services.
The bits-to-volts part of the DAC will always remain (obviously) but I would argue that what rob watts is doing with M-scaler in real time might be better implemented by moving the heavy lifting to the cloud.

Just wait until rob posts his (promised) davina/M-scaler upsampled songs to WAV files for all owners of pcm768 compatible DACs to enjoy. I think you'll have 10M people willing to pay for a service ...not fork out $8000 for a piece of hardware.

Again, just my opinion.


----------



## JaZZ (Mar 17, 2018)

dmance said:


> Despite rob watts claims that only fpga's can do M-Scaling, my guess is that super resolution audio courtesy of deep learning+AI will give us access to as high resolution audio as we want. The cloud has access to compute resources of a million fpga's to give us a computed WTA-like filter that matches the original analog ...with five hundred thousand songs for training. So much is happening in the AI domain ...and so fast that I expect this capability in a streaming service anytime.
> ...Just my opinion.





dmance said:


> Well this is well OT, but what I'm talking about is purely digital streams from services.
> The bits-to-volts part of the DAC will always remain (obviously) but I would argue that what rob watts is doing with M-scaler in real time might be better implemented by moving the heavy lifting to the cloud.


That's an implausible and illogical scenario – comparable to decoding Flac and MP3 files prior to streaming.

Remember that we're dealing with sampling frequencies of 705.6 and 768 kHz and corresponding data volumes – and this «just» for M-Scaler quality in the optimistic case that someone can replicate Rob's sophisticated algorithms, which don't exactly follow a sinc function, but are modified to get closer to the theoretical ideal of infinite taps. Hence absolutely impracticable from today's point of view.

If the experience with Davina shows that 44.1 and 48 kHz are enough for a perfect reproduction of the original signal, it would be absurd to send excessive data volumes through the internet instead.


----------



## rayl

JaZZ said:


> That's an implausible and illogical scenario – comparable to decoding Flac and MP3 files prior to streaming.
> 
> Remember that we're dealing with sampling frequencies of 705.6 and 768 kHz and corresponding data volumes – and this «just» for M-Scaler quality in the optimistic case that someone can replicate Rob's sophisticated algorithms, which don't exactly follow a sinc function, but are modified to get closer to the theoretical ideal of infinite taps. Hence absolutely impracticable from today's point of view.
> 
> If the experience with Davina shows that 44.1 and 48 kHz are enough for a perfect reproduction of the original signal, it would be absurd to send excessive data volumes through the internet instead.



But perhaps another way to look at it if Davina shows that result is, lower sampling rates are a lossless form of compression.  You need a bigger reconstruction filter.

Though, if bandwidth becomes cheaper than compute -- say fiber or 5G service comes prevalent -- how many months of higher speed Internet access can you get for the cost of an M-scaler?

My own hypothesis: I fully expect we will see that Shannon's source coding theorem will rule the day after all is said and done. Why shouldn't it? But we don't know if 44.1 is enough or if it needs to be 88.2 to avoid aliasing (despite very steep digital filters during ADC). I can't see that we will need 705.6 for a ~20 kHz bandwidth limited signal.... 

But if bandwidth and storage are cheap, at 705.6 for example, you get the same result as an MScaler w/o needing one to get an MScaler (or an even longer filter).... So that's the tradeoff.

The better your source model, which a better reconstruction filter gives you, the lower the entropy of the information relative to the model prior, therefore the lower the required transmission bitrate. It's no different than compressing English text by knowing that "the" is the most frequent word allows you to give it fewer bits -- but better yet, say you know word pairs.... and even better with word triplets... and then common phrases....  Like, I can transmit "Watts" with very few bits to the audience here by typing Rob _ of Chord bec our forum reconstruction filter easily fills in the information.


----------



## JaZZ

It's impossible that Davina will show a need for 705.6 kHz files, because such files don't exist (at least not in a form usable for comparative tests), and the superior quality level we get from BluDAVE in its current form is based on sampling rates of 44.1 and 48 kHz, or 96 kHz if we want to be generous. I don't think that higher sampling rates will ever be necessary in combination with an upsampler that's capable enough. If 1 million taps aren't enough, Rob will go up to 2 million FPGA taps, and I'm sure he will always be ahead of possible comparable cloud software solutions. Also, data volume isn't just a matter of price, but also transmission capacity. Why overload the internet with 705.6 kHz recordings when 96 kHz recordings plus an RW upsampler do it at least as good!

Of course even Rob won't live forever, so everything is possible in 15 or 35 years, but I doubt that music files with built-in reconstruction filters (or without the need for it, resp.) will ever establish. Just as nature – which always cares for economic solutions – the industry will choose a passably plausible route.


----------



## doraymon

dmance said:


> I used Wurth 74271633 (100Mhz-2.5Ghz)


From Wurth site I read the following specs for the 74271633: "Especially helpful for EMI problems in frequency range of 100 MHz up to 1.0 GHz".
So apparently 2.5GHz is not covered but I have no idea if it makes any difference...


----------



## doraymon

On a more general note, I have an Audioquest Cinnamon USB cable that I am planning to fit with Wurth 74271633S (100 MHz-1.0 GHz) and 74271131S (1 MHz -1 GHz) as suggested by @dmance (who was quoting a suggestion from Rob Watts).
The available space on the cable to fit the cores is 74cm which means I am going to be able to fit 18 cores, 9 of each type (alternated?).
Total cost of the cores around $120.

A simple question: isn't it better to invest the same money in an Audioquest Diamond USB cable?


----------



## miketlse

doraymon said:


> So this will certainly be the future improvement integrated in the next generation of Dave.


An integrated one box DAVE/M Scaler is out of the question, until RW manages to solve the technical issues that he mentions in this post. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-567#post-13478258
RW does state in other posts that DAVE V2 is many years away, so I doubt that a one box DAVE/M Scaler, would be available any sooner.


----------



## tunes

ecwl said:


> No. The low level linearity, transparency, channel matching would all be inferior with your amp’s analog volume control. That’s why I don’t think you should feed DAVE at 3V to your amp and then the volume control knob on your amp. I think you should guess where your amp’s analog volume control is the most linear with the least distortion and best channel balance which is usually around the middle (aka. 12 o’clock) and then just fix the analog volume control there. You then control your volume with DAVE’s digital volume control which may actually feed 2V or 1V or even significantly less into your amp because that’s your volume control. Hope that makes sense



Can the left and right XLR outputs be used to drive left and right powered subs?  The RCA would be used to drive high efficiency Alnico’s direct without an amp. 

This is the sub pair I am planning to purchase. 

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html


----------



## dac64 (Mar 19, 2018)

tunes said:


> Can the left and right XLR outputs be used to drive left and right powered subs?  The RCA would be used to drive high efficiency Alnico’s direct without an amp.
> 
> This is the sub pair I am planning to purchase.
> 
> http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html



Yes! How you have to find a mean to balance the outputs of both speakers and subs.

Edit : without a power amp  then not too sure.


----------



## flyte3333 (Mar 19, 2018)

Posted in wrong thread. Moved to Blu2 thread.


----------



## spotforscott (Mar 19, 2018)

tunes said:


> Can the left and right XLR outputs be used to drive left and right powered subs?  The RCA would be used to drive high efficiency Alnico’s direct without an amp.
> 
> This is the sub pair I am planning to purchase.
> 
> http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html



Yes, you can. I am running that set up with the same sub and Rethm Maarga speakers.


----------



## ecwl (Mar 22, 2018)

tunes said:


> Can the left and right XLR outputs be used to drive left and right powered subs?  The RCA would be used to drive high efficiency Alnico’s direct without an amp.


As DAC64 says, for sure. The real challenge is volume matching because XLR outputs already has higher gain than RCA so your subwoofers would need to be able to attenuate sufficiently to ensure it matches your speakers. The good news is that real-time analyzers with microphones nowadays are super cheap so integrating the subwoofers properly with speakers are much easier. Moreover, worst case scenario, you can probably buy XLR audio attenuators if the XLR outputs are too loud for the subwoofer to handle.


----------



## Jawed

So, I'm now going to recommend these:

10x Topnisus 9mm Ferrites

for the power cable on DAVE. I am using 40 ferrites.

I've spent an hour or so comparing two mains cables of the same basic design (that comes with DAVE) and find that the cable with ferrites has a richer tonality and in musical terms makes it easier to follow individual instruments and comprehend lyrics. Some examples:

In Little Plastic Castle by Ani DiFranco the guitar at the start chimes more than it twangs and her voice has a slight guttural quality instead of being airy. Without the ferrites the guitar tends to sound more like a banjo and overall there's a feeling that lower harmonics in instruments and voices are victims of asceticism.

In Rag Sindhu Bhairavi by Ali Akbar Khan the physicality of both sarod and tabla is much more apparent. Comparatively the drum has mass and the strings have resistance, bringing out the expressiveness of the playing in a way that's hard to ignore. There's more grace and more deliberation in the playing, the dynamics and rhythms flowing back and forth sing and dance more freely.

I've had DAVE configured this way for over three months now and while I initially found no value in the addition of the ferrites, over the last 2 months or so I've been feeling that the nature of my system has changed, mostly a sense that there is more gravitas and physicality. So tonight I decided to find out.

Overall there is a sense of richness in the sound of instruments - it's not that the balance of the sound has become darker, more that lower harmonics are more present. This also seems to give more shape to notes, with a stronger sense from transients such as plucks or beats. But this goes both ways, so that notes that are lightly or softly played are more different from notes that are heavily or firmly played.

The 9mm inner diameter ferrites fit tightly on the mains cable that comes with DAVE, without being difficult to "click" them shut, though a kink in the cable will give a bit of trouble. All the ferrites should be close to DAVE.


----------



## Emerald Core (Mar 20, 2018)

Gents, I am sorry if this is irrelevant, but i know most of you know about the Hugo TT.
I am getting an offer of a demo HugoTT for 2000 GBP from an authorized dealer with warranty. 
1- Should I get Hugo TT for 2k pounds?
2- Or Should i go with Qutest+ quality headamp ?
3- Suck it with a mojo and save up for the Dave?


----------



## jcn3

Emerald Core said:


> Gents, I am sorry if this is irrelevant, but i know most of you know about the Hugo TT.
> I am getting an offer of a demo HugoTT for 2000 GBP from an authorized dealer with warranty.
> 1- Should I get Hugo TT for 2k pounds?
> 2- Or Should i go with Qutest+ quality headamp ?
> 3- Suck it with a mojo and save up for the Dave?



i don't own a dave, but have heard them.  if it's possible, i'd save for the dave.


----------



## miketlse

Emerald Core said:


> Gents, I am sorry if this is irrelevant, but i know most of you know about the Hugo TT.
> I am getting an offer of a demo HugoTT for 2000 GBP from an authorized dealer with warranty.
> 1- Should I get Hugo TT for 2k pounds?
> 2- Or Should i go with Qutest+ quality headamp ?
> 3- Suck it with a mojo and save up for the Dave?


Nobody can definitively answer you, because you have not told us your needs/requirements:

if you only want a mobile solution, then the TT, DAVE or Qutest would be the wrong choice
if you are only interested in a desktop solution, then the TT, DAVE, Qutest or Mojo could be right for you, but there are some things to bear in mind:
that is a cracking price for a demo TT, and many regular posters would be tempted.
there is a caveat, that the TT was announced one year after the original Hugo, so some posters are hoping that the TT2 with extra taps, will be announced this autumn, or next spring. There has been no hint from Chord about a TT2, so buying a new *full price* TT now could represent a bit of a gamble. Against that there are many fans of the TT, and at a *demo price*, the risk is much reduced because you could probably sell it later, for virtually the same price that you bought it.
don't get blinded by the DAVE. On its own the DAVE will beat virtually everything, and when combined with Blu2/MScaler will beat everything. But bear in mind that all the recent chord desktop dacs (dave, hugo 2, qutest, will work with Blu2/MScaler) and so i assume the TT2 will also. There are posts on the DAVE/Blu2 threads about trials using the Hugo 2/Blu2/MScaler proving more enjoyable than DAVE on its own. 

Don't think that i am trying to be negative. You could be spending a lot of money, so my aim is just to help you make an informed decision, and a demo is essential. Firstly that is a great price for the demo TT, so demo it plus a Mojo and a qutest, and then think about a timeline (short term and long term). Decide which would keep you happiest in the short term for the next say two years, and you can always worry about the long term in two years.


----------



## mozes

Emerald Core said:


> Gents, I am sorry if this is irrelevant, but i know most of you know about the Hugo TT.
> I am getting an offer of a demo HugoTT for 2000 GBP from an authorized dealer with warranty.
> 1- Should I get Hugo TT for 2k pounds?
> 2- Or Should i go with Qutest+ quality headamp ?
> 3- Suck it with a mojo and save up for the Dave?


My best advice is:
Mojo now and Dave later. Used Daves always pop up here and then.
If you want the best performance for the $, then get a H2.
Just my $0.02


----------



## Accoustic

Emerald Core said:


> Gents, I am sorry if this is irrelevant, but i know most of you know about the Hugo TT.
> I am getting an offer of a demo HugoTT for 2000 GBP from an authorized dealer with warranty.
> 1- Should I get Hugo TT for 2k pounds?
> 2- Or Should i go with Qutest+ quality headamp ?
> 3- Suck it with a mojo and save up for the Dave?



I own the TT, Hugo2, Dave. 
Dave is a much better one. Also if you want dsd.


----------



## etnt

Emerald Core said:


> Gents, I am sorry if this is irrelevant, but i know most of you know about the Hugo TT.
> I am getting an offer of a demo HugoTT for 2000 GBP from an authorized dealer with warranty.
> 1- Should I get Hugo TT for 2k pounds?
> 2- Or Should i go with Qutest+ quality headamp ?
> 3- Suck it with a mojo and save up for the Dave?


Think about where you want to be eventually. 

If you are susceptible to upgraditis, then eventually you'll end up with the bludave and anything in between is going to be a waste of money.

The demo price for the TT will reduce this wastage, but still, it'll only be temporary.


----------



## maxh22 (Mar 20, 2018)

miketlse said:


> Nobody can definitively answer you, because you have not told us your needs/requirements:
> 
> if you only want a mobile solution, then the TT, DAVE or Qutest would be the wrong choice
> if you are only interested in a desktop solution, then the TT, DAVE, Qutest or Mojo could be right for you, but there are some things to bear in mind:
> ...





Emerald Core said:


> Gents, I am sorry if this is irrelevant, but i know most of you know about the Hugo TT.
> I am getting an offer of a demo HugoTT for 2000 GBP from an authorized dealer with warranty.
> 1- Should I get Hugo TT for 2k pounds?
> 2- Or Should i go with Qutest+ quality headamp ?
> 3- Suck it with a mojo and save up for the Dave?



FYI, there is a Hugo TT going for $2,300 on the FS forum right now.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-chord-hugo-tt.874577/


----------



## draytonklammer

Just started using the Dave with the Focal Aria 936 loudspeakers.
****ing stunning, as if it weren't amazing enough with my Abyss.


----------



## DMck2000

draytonklammer said:


> Just started using the Dave with the Focal Aria 936 loudspeakers.
> ****ing stunning, as if it weren't amazing enough with my Abyss.


I'm actually looking into getting Dave later in the year and some new loudspeakers. How is the Aria 936 and how do they compare to the other Focal Loudspeakers (if you've heard the other Focals of course)?


----------



## marcmccalmont

Emerald Core said:


> Gents, I am sorry if this is irrelevant, but i know most of you know about the Hugo TT.
> I am getting an offer of a demo HugoTT for 2000 GBP from an authorized dealer with warranty.
> 1- Should I get Hugo TT for 2k pounds?
> 2- Or Should i go with Qutest+ quality headamp ?
> 3- Suck it with a mojo and save up for the Dave?


Hugo2!


----------



## draytonklammer

DMck2000 said:


> I'm actually looking into getting Dave later in the year and some new loudspeakers. How is the Aria 936 and how do they compare to the other Focal Loudspeakers (if you've heard the other Focals of course)?



I personally preferred them to the 948 and every Totem in existence (yes, including their 14,000 dollar Element loudspeakers)
Also preferred them to a couple Martin Logans and B&W's I tried.

Fantastic, well balanced speakers. They feel like reference and if I close my eyes with the right recordings it's like I am there.


----------



## doraymon

draytonklammer said:


> Just started using the Dave with the Focal Aria 936 loudspeakers.
> ****ing stunning, as if it weren't amazing enough with my Abyss.


Pictures, pictures!


----------



## draytonklammer

doraymon said:


> Pictures, pictures!



My excuse is we're currently working on doing a little more decorating of the room they're in (along with placement and considering acoustic dampening materials)

I am HOPING maybe in the next week I can post some pictures. Considering a review, too.

Thanks for your interest!


----------



## heyyeh

Gents, would appreciate your feedback.
I have had my Dave for almost 2 years with no problems.
A couple of days ago, for some reason the display suddenly turns yellow color.  I turned off the unit and on again, but now the display flashes once and goes dark.  The red LEDs inside the unit turns on (as if in standby mode) but the unit does not turn on with the remote as usual.  Just stays dead!
Any of you have such an experience with your unit?  Any known fix?
Thanks for any advice you can give.


----------



## doraymon

heyyeh said:


> Gents, would appreciate your feedback.
> I have had my Dave for almost 2 years with no problems.
> A couple of days ago, for some reason the display suddenly turns yellow color.  I turned off the unit and on again, but now the display flashes once and goes dark.  The red LEDs inside the unit turns on (as if in standby mode) but the unit does not turn on with the remote as usual.  Just stays dead!
> Any of you have such an experience with your unit?  Any known fix?
> Thanks for any advice you can give.


I would drop an email to Chord customer service or PM Rob Watts to know if there is an easy fix.


----------



## Jawed

marcmccalmont said:


> Hugo2!


Yeah, if you think you might buy a DAVE, then it really makes sense to buy Hugo 2 now and add Blu 2 (or a future M Scaler) when you have saved. You'll save for longer, because the total cost is higher, but you'll have something that's a lot better than DAVE.

Weird isn't it? Now the DAVE thread should be all about recommending people buy Hugo 2, to then add Blu 2. The rule of thumb is really: don't buy DAVE unless you're also buying Blu 2.

Weird.

Now playing: Chris Anderson - Too Late Now


----------



## marcmccalmont

Jawed said:


> Yeah, if you think you might buy a DAVE, then it really makes sense to buy Hugo 2 now and add Blu 2 (or a future M Scaler) when you have saved. You'll save for longer, because the total cost is higher, but you'll have something that's a lot better than DAVE.
> 
> Weird isn't it? Now the DAVE thread should be all about recommending people buy Hugo 2, to then add Blu 2. The rule of thumb is really: don't buy DAVE unless you're also buying Blu 2.
> 
> ...


Just had a friend buy a Qutest against my recommendation for a Hugo2. Now he’s trying to lower the gain of his preamp and looking for a headphone amp! Nobody listens!


----------



## etnt

But a bluh2 is still not a bludave, and the difference between the h2 and dave is significant.

I'd say if the usage is portable, get a h2. If deskbound, stick to Dave.


----------



## Jawed

marcmccalmont said:


> Just had a friend buy a Qutest against my recommendation for a Hugo2. Now he’s trying to lower the gain of his preamp and looking for a headphone amp! Nobody listens!


Qutest has 3 different output levels, so he shouldn't have a problem with his pre-amp.

Now playing: Red House Painters - Mistress


----------



## Sleepow

Seeing the latest posts, I am wondering:
People seem to be saying BluH2 is better than Dave; but is it closer to Dave or to BluDave?

I am seriously considering the Dave, but not sure I can justify the BluDave anytime soon.
So am I better off getting the H2 with the plan of getting a Mscaler in the future (blue or a version without CD playback), or just the Dave and stick with it.


----------



## JaZZ

One can be very satisfied with the DAVE (and still dream of a future affordable M-Scaler).


----------



## ray-dude (Mar 22, 2018)

Sleepow said:


> Seeing the latest posts, I am wondering:
> People seem to be saying BluH2 is better than Dave; but is it closer to Dave or to BluDave?
> 
> I am seriously considering the Dave, but not sure I can justify the BluDave anytime soon.
> So am I better off getting the H2 with the plan of getting a Mscaler in the future (blue or a version without CD playback), or just the Dave and stick with it.



I actually spent quite a bit of time on this question, trying to decide whether to keep my DAVE after getting my Blu2, or to swap it out for an H2.  The benefit of the BluDAVE over the BluHugo2 is different than DAVE vs BluDAVE or Hugo2 vs BluHugo2, and I'm still trying to figure out how to articulate it.  The Blu actually has a setting that switches it between 1M taps, 500k taps, and 250k taps, so that's what I used to try to characterize BluDAVE vs BluHugo2.

To net net for me (VERY subjective):

* If I had to choose between exclusively listening to music with a BluDAVE at 1M tap setting on Blu2 (high) and BluHugo2 at 1M tap setting, I'd definitely go BluDAVE (clearly better)

* If I had to choose between a BluDAVE at 500k tap setting (medium) and a Blu Hugo2 at high setting, I'd barely lean slightly toward the BluDAVE (better in some areas, worse in others, but on balance, I prefer the BluDAVE at medium setting)

* If I had to choose between a BluDAVE at 250k tap setting (low) and a BluHugo2 at high setting, I'd go BluHugo2 (I'd miss some of the DAVE special sauce, but the added magic from the extra taps makes up for it)

* If I had to choose between a stand alone DAVE (no Blu2) or a BluHugo2, I would easily opt for the BluHugo2.  The benefit I hear from the mScaler well exceeds the benefit of the DAVE over the Hugo2.

As to what the DAVE brings over the Hugo2 (when you take taps out of the equation with the Blu2), best I can articulate it is that DAVE has a more holographic presentation (esp. in depth), where the soundstage feels more tangible and real.  This is more than detail, but a sense of natural physicality.  DAVE also brings more dynamics and velocity.  For example, with my ultra sensitivity Voxativ drivers (incredibly fast drivers), with BluDAVE I actually get a startle response sometimes from cymbals.  I do not get that from BluHugo2.

All that being said, a stand alone Hugo2 is already a true world class listening experience (revelatory actually).  Don't let any of the above take away from what is amazing kit, no matter what path  you go.


----------



## AndrewOld (Mar 22, 2018)

A stand alone, less expensive, M Scaler is on the way. Rob Watt referred to it explicitly in a video awhile back. If you have no use for cds, surely it makes sense to wait for it. If you impatiently buy a Blu2 now you will be lumbered with an expensive cd transport that will lose a lot of value when the M scaler arrives, because of its inherent redundancy. And if you bought a Hugo2, you’ll always want a DAVE anyway. So get a DAVE now, enjoy it - for it is hugely enjoyable - and wave whatever you have left of your money at Chord and nag them to hurry up and bring out the less expensive M Scaler. You know it makes sense!


----------



## simorag (Mar 22, 2018)

I am thinking to create a poll thread about what actual and potential DAVE owners (and other Chord DAC users, or anybody else for that matters) think about a standalone M-Scaler.

I mean, for instance, how many of us would be interested in it and at which price point...

Do you guys think is a good idea?

If yes, what relevant questions could we add to the poll to make it relevant to us and to Chord (so to make them prioritise the release of such a product)?


----------



## AndrewOld

simorag said:


> I am thinking to create a poll thread about what actual and potential DAVE owners (and other Chord DAC users, or anybody else for that matters) think about a standalone M-Scaler.
> 
> I mean, for instance, how many of us would be interested in it and at which price point...
> 
> ...



Go for it.


----------



## ZappaMan

simorag said:


> I am thinking to create a poll thread about what actual and potential DAVE owners (and other Chord DAC users, or anybody else for that matters) think about a standalone M-Scaler.
> 
> I mean, for instance, how many of us would be interested in it and at which price point...
> 
> ...



What inputs/outputs would you want to see?
Do you want eq tweaks?
Would use of cheap connecting cables be preferred?
Are you willing to be patient to get the ideal?
Can the firmware be updated?
Would you be willing to participate in the alpha/beta?
Is streaming a necessity?
Would control via phone be preferred to dials and switches?


----------



## doraymon

simorag said:


> I am thinking to create a poll thread about what actual and potential DAVE owners (and other Chord DAC users, or anybody else for that matters) think about a standalone M-Scaler.
> 
> I mean, for instance, how many of us would be interested in it and at which price point...
> 
> ...


What kind of enclosure would you prefer in order to disguise another several k$ box in your rack and avoid being dumped by your wife?
Would like to get an offer from the same financing company you are using for your house’s loan?


----------



## musickid (Mar 22, 2018)

Stay quiet don't tell your wives and they won't find out!!! If tomorrow you end up lonely you'll be okay. Mscaler will save the day. Check my avatar for sure.


Listening to god's project Aventura//roon


----------



## tunes (Mar 23, 2018)

spotforscott said:


> Yes, you can. I am running that set up with the same sub and Rethm Maarga speakers.


How does your system sound with and without the Blu2 Mscaler?  Have you compared your set up to the Voxativ 9.87 System??


----------



## AndrewOld (Mar 23, 2018)

What inputs/outputs would you want to see? USB and s/pdif.

Do you want eq tweaks? NO

Would use of cheap connecting cables be preferred? The MScaler to DAVE cabling should be defined and supplied by Chord. They make both products, they should define the ideal interface and not leave it to customers to mess around.

Are you willing to be patient to get the ideal? Yes, but I don’t see why I have to be patient. The M Scaler has been designed. Just release it.

Can the firmware be updated? Don’t know. Would prefer it to be right in the first place.

Would you be willing to participate in the alpha/beta? Sure.

Is streaming a necessity? Absolutely not. Chord have demonstrated with the Poly that they are unable to deliver robust, competent streaming software/hardware in a timely fashion.

Would control via phone be preferred to dials and switches? No, but a proper remote that allows you to select inputs should be provided. And the controls on the product should be identified, as should the connections. How on earth do Chord expect a casual user - my wife for example - to walk up to a DAVE and use it when there is no indication of what any of the buttons or dials do?  Very poor ergonomics.


----------



## TheAttorney (Mar 23, 2018)

simorag said:


> I am thinking to create a poll thread about what actual and potential DAVE owners (and other Chord DAC users, or anybody else for that matters) think about a standalone M-Scaler.



My preference is for the simplest, smallest M scaler, with minimal buttons and options, with at least a USB and toslink input, maybe some other digital inputs (RCA/XLR/BNC) to mimic what DAVE provides.
It would be a low height, flat topped base for DAVE to sit elegantly on top of. If that's too hard, then my second preference would be a small footprint black cube that can be hidden round the back. At this is level, why would anyone use anything other than the full 1M taps? Other than to maybe tinker around for the first couple of hours. A single button to toggle inputs, and optionally another button to toggle taps. Maybe some LEDs to show status.

A networking option would be interesting, but ONLY if that includes Roon Ready and has a SQ at least as good as current rendering champs, such as SoTM 200 Ultra or UltraRendu. If the networking function can't handle both these points, then stop wasting our time and money and leave it out (or have it as a chargeable option).

Edit: If M-Scaler had auto input selection, it wouldn't need any buttons at all


----------



## musickid

A modular upgrade path whereby if new technological advances occur the m-scaler can just be sent to chord for the replacement slot in module. This ensures the initial investment remains valid and is future proofed. Not everyone has the money to swap and change large components at the drop of a hat. A reasonable fee for any upgrade would be ok. The future of audio is approaching.


----------



## ZappaMan

musickid said:


> A modular upgrade path whereby if new technological advances occur the m-scaler can just be sent to chord for the replacement slot in module. This ensures the initial investment remains valid and is future proofed. Not everyone has the money to swap and change large components at the drop of a hat. A reasonable fee for any upgrade would be ok. The future of audio is approaching.



following on from that, those who take part in the beta could use a basic unfashionable black box, then get it reboxed after the casing is ready.  Remove the barriers for early release, involve the community, get feedback, then replace the alpha\beta customers casings\v1 electronics as they become production ready.


----------



## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> My preference is for the simplest, smallest M scaler, with minimal buttons and options, with at least a USB and toslink input, maybe some other digital inputs (RCA/XLR/BNC) to mimic what DAVE provides.
> It would be a low height, flat topped base for DAVE to sit elegantly on top of. If that's too hard, then my second preference would be a small footprint black cube that can be hidden round the back. At this is level, why would anyone use anything other than the full 1M taps? Other than to maybe tinker around for the first couple of hours. A single button to toggle inputs, and optionally another button to toggle taps. Maybe some LEDs to show status.
> 
> A networking option would be interesting, but ONLY if that includes Roon Ready and has a SQ at least as good as current rendering champs, such as SoTM 200 Ultra or UltraRendu. If the networking function can't handle both these points, then stop wasting our time and money and leave it out (or have it as a chargeable option).



Certainly Sir. 

And the price is . . . . . . Oh, dear. It is nearly the same as Blu2 with the extra bits you have added to a stand alone MScaler.

Just think this through. When Hugo 2 was near to being launched everyone thought they were going to be getting a Dave on the cheap but of course we know that Dave is not threatened by H2 and still retains it's premier slot in the Chord line up. Chord would have been signing Dave's death warrant if H2 had been as good for only a quarter of the price.

At the moment Blu2 is selling very nicely at a premium price. We know that there is an MScaler in the pipeline that will be suitable for H2 and Qutest but I think Chord will be very careful not let this new MScaler kill the goose that is laying the golden eggs ie Blu2. I therefore anticipate a cut down MScaler of some form that does not threaten Blu2 and is somewhat cheaper or a stand alone MScaler that has the same performance as Blu2 but maybe with extra inputs and functionality in which case it's price may end up closer to Blu2.


----------



## musickid (Mar 23, 2018)

Here here Zappa, and as long as it enhances one's musical enjoyment with the benefits that 1M taps bring with respect to timing, pace, rhythm etc Chord can dress it up in a little black dress and ship it to me quite happily.


----------



## musickid (Mar 23, 2018)

The golden egg would be compromised but the sheer demand for an mscaler and the volume with which any new product could be sold, would very quickly break even the books and soon become not just a golden egg but a large indian diamond imho. Following this prediction the reduced unit's lower saleable cost as compared to blu2 is a non issue taking into account _partially_ lower manufacturing costs of course. Simple economies of scale and the fact that demand rules above all else.


----------



## TheAttorney (Mar 23, 2018)

Triode User said:


> Certainly Sir.
> 
> And the price is . . . . . . Oh, dear. It is nearly the same as Blu2 with the extra bits you have added to a stand alone MScaler.
> 
> ..... but I think Chord will be very careful not let this new MScaler kill the goose that is laying the golden eggs ie Blu2. I therefore anticipate a cut down MScaler of some form that does not threaten Blu2 and is somewhat cheaper or a stand alone MScaler that has the same performance as Blu2 but maybe with extra inputs and functionality in which case it's price may end up closer to Blu2.



No, my 1st preference is for the simplest version (i.e. one that could partner H2/Qutest). If it's got auto standby, then it can even drop the on/off switch.
If a full networking version ends up much the same price as the Blu2, then it's possibly justified - but only if that networking includes the two key points I mentioned.

The goose with the golden eggs is ultimately the loyal-ish customer base. And customers stay loyal when they get what they want at a fair price.
Blu2 customers knew what was possible in the future when they made their decision, whereas DAVE customers didn't.
It may seem a problem to please all the people all of the time, but what a high class problem to have in this case!


----------



## simorag

AndrewOld said:


> Are you willing to be patient to get the ideal? Yes, but I don’t see why I have to be patient. The M Scaler has been designed. Just release it.



I totally agree. The whole point of my post is to encourage Chord to give high priority to releasing ASAP a device which incorporates the M-Scaler of the Blu2 without the CD transport. Simplistically speaking, that would mean a repackaging / simplification of the current design of the Blu2. Perhaps also a good business for Chord since it would provide some scale economy to their already developed cutting edge technology and design.



AndrewOld said:


> Would use of cheap connecting cables be preferred? The MScaler to DAVE cabling should be defined and supplied by Chord. They make both products, they should define the ideal interface and not leave it to customers to mess around.



+1. Honestly the fact that >50% of the recent posts on the DAVE and Blu2 threads ere related to ferrites on USB and BNC cables is a bit odd. Of course, our audiophiles community is full of obsessive perfectionists, but hopefully Chord can leverage on all the experiments that have been done and further increase FPGA noise isolation in the next M-scaler iteration, or provide guidance about BNC + ferrites.



TheAttorney said:


> My preference is for the simplest, smallest M scaler, with minimal buttons and options, with at least a USB and toslink input, maybe some other digital inputs (RCA/XLR/BNC) to mimic what DAVE provides.



+1. This is exactly what I would be looking for, because I would expect this as the fastest development and the minimum cost one. What about half of the Blu2? Seems fair?


----------



## AndrewOld

musickid said:


> A modular upgrade path whereby if new technological advances occur the m-scaler can just be sent to chord for the replacement slot in module. This ensures the initial investment remains valid and is future proofed. Not everyone has the money to swap and change large components at the drop of a hat. A reasonable fee for any upgrade would be ok. The future of audio is approaching.



Linn Products have been doing this very successfully for years. They even give you the option of your old board back in a simple folded metal case. No waste. Very decent.


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> Linn Products have been doing this very successfully for years. They even give you the option of your old board back in a simple folded metal case. No waste. Very decent.



Few would be able to argue against what is being said about upgrades however I used to have a Bricasti M1 DAC. That received various upgrades throughout its life which could be retro fitted to the existing model including firmware upgrades. On the other hand, even with the upgrades it still never sounded as good as Dave!

You had better buy a Linn then.


----------



## AndrewOld (Mar 23, 2018)

Triode User said:


> Few would be able to argue against what is being said about upgrades however I used to have a Bricasti M1 DAC. That received various upgrades throughout its life which could be retro fitted to the existing model including firmware upgrades. On the other hand, even with the upgrades it still never sounded as good as Dave!
> 
> You had better buy a Linn then.



I don’t want to buy a Linn, as I am more than happy with my DAVE. I was just using their products to illustrate what is possible for a company who wants to look after its customers and behave in an environmentally responsible manner. Linns high end products are big thousands, just like the DAVE, and come in fancy machined boxes, just like the DAVE. But they have been upgradeable for many years, which makes buying in very attractive - you know you are not going to lose out when a product inevitably gets improved on. Otoh, Chord promised Blu owners their product would be upgradeable then didn’t deliver. Certainly if Chord ever get round to something as simple as sorting out the UI of the DAVE I would expect a fairly priced upgrade option for that too.


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> I don’t want to buy a Linn, as I am more than happy with my DAVE. I was just using their products to illustrate what is possible for a company who wants to look after its customers and behave in an environmentally responsible manner. Linns high end products are big thousands, just like the DAVE, and come in fancy machined boxes, just like the DAVE. But they have been upgradeable for many years, which makes buying in very attractive - you know you are not going to lose out when a product inevitably gets improved on. Otoh, Chord promised Blu owners their product would be upgradeable then didn’t deliver. Certainly if Chord ever get round to something as simple as sorting out the UI of the DAVE I would expect a fairly priced upgrade option for that too.



Yeah, that was a bit shabby about the promised upgrade path on the Blu but I admit I haven’t seen any first hand info about what was actually promised.


----------



## Emerald Core

What you guys said probably is going to happen. I am already imagining a 500k M Scaler on the way for half the price of blu2. And then followed by a TT 2 then a 2nd M Scaler of 800k. 

Just guessing


----------



## AndrewOld

1m taps is the magic number, Rob has spoken. 1m taps it has to be.


----------



## doraymon

Rob Watts said:


> Yes my experiments with ferrites are only on Blu 2 to Dave. I have not had any success with ferrites on the USB


Damn' I spotted this 2 seconds before clicking "buy" on a $120+ bunch of Wurth ferrite clamps.
So basically there is no experience from Rob that even lower frequencies targeted ferrite cores on a USB cable to Dave would actually bring any benefit.
In a way this is good news, it means my cable (like any other cable for that matter) is going to be perfect for DAVE.
I am still tempted to try and hear by myself but it's a $120+ exercise...


----------



## marcmccalmont

doraymon said:


> Damn' I spotted this 2 seconds before clicking "buy" on a $120+ bunch of Wurth ferrite clamps.
> So basically there is no experience from Rob that even lower frequencies targeted ferrite cores on a USB cable to Dave would actually bring any benefit.
> In a way this is good news, it means my cable (like any other cable for that matter) is going to be perfect for DAVE.
> I am still tempted to try and hear by myself but it's a $120+ exercise...


----------



## marcmccalmont

I just replaced the stock usb cable between an Aurender N100h and Hugo2 with a $100 wireworld starlight 7 (the red one) very happy with the improvements and reasonably priced


----------



## jayz

AndrewOld said:


> 1m taps is the magic number, Rob has spoken. 1m taps it has to be.



In theory at least, a 10M scaler is possible and I think that is where Chord might head with their top end range although I am aware there have been doubts expressed as to the benefit of going beyond 1M. In any case I think Chord will also be looking to advance state of the art as it is today - those aspects holding back further improvement. For example, preventing/reducing external interference getting to digital circuitry. Who knows,  Dave2 might even come with a Scaler built in.

Regarding a lower cost scaler - we know it's coming but hard guess when. I'd say we might have to wait till Xilinx come up with a 20nm  Artix family device which should happen soon. The higher end 20nm Xilinx chips available today seem to show roughly half power consumption which would equate to approx 5w for an MScaler which brings it roughly in the ballpark of Quest power requirements. Of course these are all rough estimates.

Then we have those who want an MScaler for the H2 and Quest audience as things stand today but it is hard to see that happen TBH as some of you have already pointed out.


----------



## simorag (Mar 24, 2018)

Hello guys, which power cable are you using with the DAVE?

I am currently using a fair budget cable (http://www.ricable.com/hi-end-power.html), combined with this power distributor http://www.systemsandmagic.com/index_file/eight.htm, and I am wondering about the potential sound quality improvements from stepping up to a higher end power cable in the 400-600Euro price range (I am open to 2nd hand ones, too).

I have no plans for a power regenerator at the moment, as the very good ones are much above my budget right now, and my current priority is keep saving for a Blu2 or a standalone M-Scaler if and when it will come out. Also, my mains line seems not too bad, at least by judging from sound quality variations from busy daily hours to deep night performance.​Still, I am interested in other's experiences about feeding the DAVE with a high-end power cord.

I would prefer a slightly warm-ish signature (if that applies to power cables), as I occasionally suffer from vocals sibilance with my Abyss Phi headphones driven straight out of the DAVE.

Finally, would you recommend a power cable designed specifically for digital sources for the DAVE used as DAC + amp?


----------



## Emerald Core

Ok guys so I am getting close to decide to buy Dave over HugoTT/2 since people tried and I wouldn't want to regret making a Midway decison. Also, Rob Watts mentioned that there is no Dave2 coming for the next two years. 

The wait time is 6 weeks and costs $8200 with vat. What do you guys think?


----------



## ZappaMan

Emerald Core said:


> Ok guys so I am getting close to decide to buy Dave over HugoTT/2 since people tried and I wouldn't want to regret making a Midway decison. Also, Rob Watts mentioned that there is no Dave2 coming for the next two years.
> 
> The wait time is 6 weeks and costs $8200 with vat. What do you guys think?


Let’s say you smoked (I don’t anymore), you’d save that amount on cigarettes in 3 years, so I’d say, do it, fill thy ears rather then thy lungs!


----------



## hattrick15

marcmccalmont said:


> I just replaced the stock usb cable between an Aurender N100h and Hugo2 with a $100 wireworld starlight 7 (the red one) very happy with the improvements and reasonably priced



Can you describe the improvements you are hearing?


----------



## marcmccalmont

hattrick15 said:


> Can you describe the improvements you are hearing?


More transparent, more detail, leading edges better defined, sounds like a tweeter upgrade! A bit more 3 dimensional and life like,  voices have improved clarity


----------



## marcmccalmont

Emerald Core said:


> Ok guys so I am getting close to decide to buy Dave over HugoTT/2 since people tried and I wouldn't want to regret making a Midway decison. Also, Rob Watts mentioned that there is no Dave2 coming for the next two years.
> 
> The wait time is 6 weeks and costs $8200 with vat. What do you guys think?


1. Blu2 Dave
2. Blu2 Hugo2 
3. Dave 
4. Hugo2


----------



## marcmccalmont

simorag said:


> Hello guys, which power cable are you using with the DAVE?
> 
> I am currently using a fair budget cable (http://www.ricable.com/hi-end-power.html), combined with this power distributor http://www.systemsandmagic.com/index_file/eight.htm, and I am wondering about the potential sound quality improvements from stepping up to a higher end power cable in the 400-600Euro price range (I am open to 2nd hand ones, too).
> 
> ...


Try Pangea AC 14se II ‘s better than expensive power cords reasonably priced. also look into  a regenerator for all your equipment except your power amps PS audio p5 or a used powerplant premiere (about $1000 used)


----------



## Emerald Core

marcmccalmont said:


> 1. Blu2 Dave
> 2. Blu2 Hugo2
> 3. Dave
> 4. Hugo2



The difference between Dave and H2 is as good as the price difference too? Could you elaborate between 3 and 4?
I am not buying the blu2. But I will be willing to spare for an upcoming separate Mscaler if it ever comes to life.

thanks buddy


----------



## marcmccalmont

Emerald Core said:


> The difference between Dave and H2 is as good as the price difference too? Could you elaborate between 3 and 4?
> I am not buying the blu2. But I will be willing to spare for an upcoming separate Mscaler if it ever comes to life.
> 
> thanks buddy


On a scale of 0-100
Live music     100
1. Blu2 Dave.    95
2. Blu2 Hugo2.  93
3. Dave.             87
4. Hugo2            86 

Hugo2 is by far the best value then the Blu2/Hugo2 but if you are eventually going to buy an Mscaler and pair it with Dave and don’t need a Hugo2 in a secondary system buy a Dave


----------



## xxx1313

marcmccalmont said:


> 3. Dave.             87
> 4. Hugo2            86



You must be kidding! I have both Dave and Hugo 2 and even though both are great on their own, I know how much better Dave sounds.


----------



## draytonklammer

xxx1313 said:


> You must be kidding! I have both Dave and Hugo 2 and even though both are great on their own, I know how much better Dave sounds.



^ gonna have to agree with this.


----------



## doraymon

marcmccalmont said:


> also look into a regenerator for all your equipment except your power amps


OT: Do you consider a headphone amp (relatively low current draw, say 3A) in the amps category, hence would you plug it in an “unfiltered” plug?
Or together with the DAC and other sources in a filtered one?


----------



## GryphonGuy

simorag said:


> Hello guys, which power cable are you using with the DAVE?
> 
> I am currently using a fair budget cable (http://www.ricable.com/hi-end-power.html), combined with this power distributor http://www.systemsandmagic.com/index_file/eight.htm, and I am wondering about the potential sound quality improvements from stepping up to a higher end power cable in the 400-600Euro price range (I am open to 2nd hand ones, too).
> 
> ...



Shunyata Denali and Sigma Power cables. Simply sublime.

From your comments, I'd say this level of natural sound, impactful transients and low level signal perception is out of reach at the moment.

Regards
GG


----------



## GryphonGuy

Emerald Core said:


> Ok guys so I am getting close to decide to buy Dave over HugoTT/2 since people tried and I wouldn't want to regret making a Midway decison. Also, Rob Watts mentioned that there is no Dave2 coming for the next two years.
> 
> The wait time is 6 weeks and costs $8200 with vat. What do you guys think?



DAVE DAVE DAVE. Hugo2 would be useful in my world only if I was to be a massive travel-listener needing a mobile solution. Otherwise DAVE is hands-down superior in every way other than mobile of course.

Regards
GG


----------



## x RELIC x

xxx1313 said:


> You must be kidding! I have both Dave and Hugo 2 and even though both are great on their own, I know how much better Dave sounds.



Also agree with this.


----------



## flyte3333

xxx1313 said:


> You must be kidding! I have both Dave and Hugo 2 and even though both are great on their own, I know how much better Dave sounds.



I agree, without question.

What has been achieved with Hugo2 in such a small housing and for it's price is quite extraordinary. The value per $ ratio is astronomically high.

But for outright SQ performance, the difference between my Hugo2 and Dave is significant. Probably something to do with Dave's bigger and better power supply and analogue sections - more taps too.

I just got Dave on Friday last week and am having some issues with my unit which will hopefully be resolved with my dealer on Monday with a replacement unit, so I can get back to being amazed with Dave. 

Looking forward to adding the next M-Scaler to Dave, as soon as it's released too.


----------



## hattrick15

marcmccalmont said:


> Try Pangea AC 14se II ‘s better than expensive power cords reasonably priced. also look into  a regenerator for all your equipment except your power amps PS audio p5 or a used powerplant premiere (about $1000 used)



Not sure what qualifies as a power amp.  Would my Mjolnir Audio Pure BiPolar headphone amp be considered a power amp?  If so, why do you say not to plug a power amp into the P5 Power Plant?


----------



## Triode User

simorag said:


> Hello guys, which power cable are you using with the DAVE?
> 
> I am currently using a fair budget cable (http://www.ricable.com/hi-end-power.html), combined with this power distributor http://www.systemsandmagic.com/index_file/eight.htm, and I am wondering about the potential sound quality improvements from stepping up to a higher end power cable in the 400-600Euro price range (I am open to 2nd hand ones, too).
> 
> ...



Your decision to ignore power cords and regenerator at the moment and instead to put the money towards a Blu2 is exactly what I would do. Blu2 will be of far more benefit than anything to do with power. Sure, if when you have Blu2 and you feel like experimenting then you can try some power cords or a regenerator. So that Blu2 can come as quickly as possible why not just  use your current power cables or even the supplied stock ones. Just to say on the regenerator front I had a P10 and have sold it. I have not noticed any difference in the sound of my system without it. But then anything to do with power must vary depending on the quality or problems with power you have at home. I suspect there is a large variation and some lucky people really don’t have any issues to solve. I do use quality Belden high current shielded power cables but that is mostly because inevitably they run close to interconnects, digital cables and also speaker cables. 

Remember, Blu2 is the objective!


----------



## marcmccalmont

doraymon said:


> OT: Do you consider a headphone amp (relatively low current draw, say 3A) in the amps category, hence would you plug it in an “unfiltered” plug?
> Or together with the DAC and other sources in a filtered one?


On a PS audio powerplant all outlets are isolated and regenerated  there are enough outlets for each piece of equipment


----------



## marcmccalmont

hattrick15 said:


> Not sure what qualifies as a power amp.  Would my Mjolnir Audio Pure BiPolar headphone amp be considered a power amp?  If so, why do you say not to plug a power amp into the P5 Power Plant?


Nope a headphone amp is fine for any of the small regenerators


----------



## marcmccalmont (Mar 25, 2018)

xxx1313 said:


> You must be kidding! I have both Dave and Hugo 2 and even though both are great on their own, I know how much better Dave sounds.


So help the guy out and post your numbers! Same scale 0-100 100 being live music. Easy to trash some ones post but you guys don’t take the time to help the poster?


----------



## marcmccalmont

This is a very strange forum 
People often post asking for help 
What DAC to buy should I buy a Blu2 what cables what power cords 
Very few helpful people posting to help the original poster but lots of posts to disagree Strange


----------



## marcmccalmont (Mar 25, 2018)

Let’s see if we can help!
Everyone post your opinion
Would you recommend a Dave or a Blu2/Hugo2 if either one was in your budget? Does it depend on your end game? Blu2/Dave or Blu2/Dave and Hugo2 in a secondary system or Blu2/Hugo2?


----------



## Clive101

simorag said:


> I would prefer a slightly warm-ish signature (if that applies to power cables), as I occasionally suffer from vocals sibilance with my Abyss Phi headphones driven straight out of the DAVE.



Have you auditioned the LCD-4, perhaps worth a try..? If your looking for warm-ish sound, they work very well with Dave.

As regard to power conditioning, I found greater difference with a speaker set up, in fact when I removed my power conditioning it was so bad I gave up...!
With a headphone setup direct from Dave, try some Supra mains shielded mains cable. *Always try before you buy* and make your own decision.

I do not have the demo Blu2 yet so unable advise on power supply, but for me speaker System (power first) as the result with Dave (alone) was conclusive IMO, headphone not so sure..?


----------



## dac64 (Mar 25, 2018)

marcmccalmont said:


> Let’s see if we can help!
> Everyone post your opinion
> Would you recommend a Dave or a Blu2/Hugo2 if either one was in your budget? Does it depend on your end game? Blu2/Dave or Blu2/Dave and Hugo2 in a secondary system or Blu2/Hugo2?



I'll buy Blu2/Hugo2.

Edit: Actually, it doesn't make sense to buy the Hugo 2 since Blu2 isn't portable therefore I'll buy Blu2/Qutest.

Yeah and correction: Blu2/Hugo2, if one listen to headphone too!


----------



## marcmccalmont

dac64 said:


> I'll buy Blu2/Hugo2.
> 
> Edit: Actually, it doesn't make sense to buy the Hugo 2 since Blu2 isn't portable therefore I'll buy Blu2/Qutest.


I’d go for the Blu2/Hugo2 also 
I’d take the Hugo2 over the Qutest for the headphone amp


----------



## simorag

marcmccalmont said:


> Try Pangea AC 14se II ‘s better than expensive power cords reasonably priced. also look into a regenerator for all your equipment except your power amps PS audio p5 or a used powerplant premiere (about $1000 used)



Yes, the Pangea AC14SEmk2 seem like a price / performance champion. They are cheap enough to take the risk to try one and see the results, thank you for you recommendation!

Also, PS Audio would be my go-to for power regeneration, also because there is a shop nearby that allows loans. Only drawback would be that I would need to buy their new unit, which is currently out of my budget.




GryphonGuy said:


> Shunyata Denali and Sigma Power cables. Simply sublime.



Sure, TOTL Shunyata gear would be like shooting for the top, and in a few years from now, when my system will be more complete (i.e. after the purchase of Blu2 or MScaler, a music server and a tube amp like the WA33), I believe I will invest big in accessories as well.

At the moment I need to be more frugal about power, but at the same time I don't want to overlook this part of my rig, thus bottle-necking the performance of the whole system.
With an investment around 1500Euro I could buy something like the Equi=Core 150 plus an used Cardas Clear Power (Cardas is known for a relatively warm signature) and be content for a while.



Triode User said:


> Your decision to ignore power cords and regenerator at the moment and instead to put the money towards a Blu2 is exactly what I would do. ... Just to say on the regenerator front I had a P10 and have sold it. I have not noticed any difference in the sound of my system without it.
> ...
> Remember, Blu2 is the objective!



When I replaced my stock cable, plugged in a 10Euro plug multiplier with my current components listed in my previous post, I indeed heard a definite improvement in background blackness, noise, bass depth and control. This is where I got the impression that I should not overlook this issue.
On the other hand, I was demoed at a shop a 2000Euro cable vs. a 500Euro cable and I could not hear the difference between them. 
So I am trying to find the sweet spot of the price / performance ratio in this area (easy, no?).

As for the Blu2, my mantra in the last weeks has been Blu2Blu2Blu2Blu2... I am resisting to spend elsewhere (this hobby exposes you to any sort of temptations) and trying to sell all my unused gear to get there as soon as possible!
Thank your for strengthening my will power and focus 

Anyway, just when I am writing this I am listening to the Mozart Jupiter symphony (Hogwood) with the DAVE / Abyss Phi combo and it is pure bliss ... great instrument timbre, crazy transparency, air and holographic presentation almost at speaker-like levels ... sometimes I ask myself if I really need to spend another ridiculous amount of money to further improve (don't worry, the response is YES, I want more!).


----------



## marcmccalmont

simorag said:


> Yes, the Pangea AC14SEmk2 seem like a price / performance champion. They are cheap enough to take the risk to try one and see the results, thank you for you recommendation!
> 
> Also, PS Audio would be my go-to for power regeneration, also because there is a shop nearby that allows loans. Only drawback would be that I would need to buy their new unit, which is currently out of my budget.
> 
> ...


Perhaps you can try a powerplant to see what improvement you get then target the used market


----------



## simorag (Mar 25, 2018)

Clive101 said:


> Have you auditioned the LCD-4, perhaps worth a try..? If your looking for warm-ish sound, they work very well with Dave.



I had the LCD-4 on loan for a week and while I fell in love with their vocals, midrange sweetness and general fatigue-free smoothness, I could not live with their sub-optimal transparency and transient attack presentation even compared to the HD800S I had at the time (of which in turn I felt the Abyss Phi were a MAJOR upgrade).

But, that was before getting the DAVE, and sooner or later I will audition the LCD-4 again with the DAVE (after I have completed the building of my system, of course), because I agree that they could make a great synergy, and complement my Abyss Phi very nicely for certain genres or depending on my mood.

Please note that, apart for this sibilance glitch, I believe that the Abyss Phi is a fantastic headphone, and can do things that no other headphone I tried (I am not that huge expert, though) could do. It is the first headphone I tried that can combine speed, transparency, detail, subwoofer-like bass, imaging with no apparent compromises. I especially like the air the Phi can create around and within the musical scene, which gives me sometimes an eerie illusion of not wearing headphones and being at the venue instead.

When I got the DAVE (which I bought after the Abyss), all these capabilities have been further enhanced significantly.



marcmccalmont said:


> Perhaps you can try a powerplant to see what improvement you get then target the used market



I just researched in the used market and noticed that an used PS Audio Premier Power Plant costs about the same of the Equi=Core I am considering, so thank you for the heads up!


----------



## Triode User

simorag said:


> I just researched in the used market and noticed that an used PS Audio Premier Power Plant costs about the same of the Equi=Core I am considering, so thank you for the heads up!



PS Audio are in the process of rolling out a new range of P5, P10 and a new P20. If you must buy one then bide your time and wait for bargains as people sell their old versions to get the new.


----------



## simorag

Thank you! No hurry because Blu2 will have to come first


----------



## xxx1313 (Mar 25, 2018)

marcmccalmont said:


> So help the guy out and post your numbers! Same scale 0-100 100 being live music. Easy to trash some ones post but you guys don’t take the time to help the poster?



No personal experience with Blu2 here, so I cannot comment on this. But if Hugo 2 has 86 Points, Dave is above 90 for sure.

By the way, if somebody in Europe is looking for a Hugo 2, mine is offered for sale in the classifieds. Hugo 2 sounds better than every portable and non-portable DAC/headamp in its price class, imho.


----------



## Emerald Core

Which headphones do you guys recommend that pairs well with the DAVE ?


----------



## ZappaMan

marcmccalmont said:


> On a scale of 0-100
> Live music     100
> 1. Blu2 Dave.    95
> 2. Blu2 Hugo2.  93
> ...


I’d be interested to add no 5 and 6, 5 is mojo and 6 is mojo/poly!

Though not sure who would ever have experienced all these devices to enable comparison.


----------



## Emerald Core

ZappaMan said:


> I’d be interested to add no 5 and 6, 5 is mojo and 6 is mojo/poly!
> 
> Though not sure who would ever have experienced all these devices to enable comparison.



Probably Rob would.


----------



## SCBob

ZappaMan said:


> I’d be interested to add no 5 and 6, 5 is mojo and 6 is mojo/poly!
> 
> Though not sure who would ever have experienced all these devices to enable comparison.


Where does Hugo TT fit on the list, especially in comparision to Hugo 2, and why? Thanks.


----------



## ray-dude

ZappaMan said:


> I’d be interested to add no 5 and 6, 5 is mojo and 6 is mojo/poly!
> 
> Though not sure who would ever have experienced all these devices to enable comparison.



See links below 

I thought the mojo-poly was a hair better than my Mojo via usb, but I haven’t done anything to optimize mojo. Haven’t heard the HugoTt or Qutest yet.


----------



## simorag (Mar 25, 2018)

Emerald Core said:


> Which headphones do you guys recommend that pairs well with the DAVE ?



Well, I am under the impression that it is quite hard to find a headphone to NOT recommend with the DAVE. It just seems to bring out the true soul of any headphone, due to its extreme transparency and "rightness".

Therefore, if you are already very fond of a specific headphone model because you like its character so much, most likely DAVE will only elevate it further.

Only limitation could be the driving capability of the DAVE headphone out, which while being very competent, cannot cope with power hogs like the HE6 or Susvara, at least according to reviews and user's feedback (I cannot provide first hand experience here).

My personal experience is with the HD800S and Abyss Phi, and I much prefer the Phi. The HD800S did not scale equally well when passing from my previous Audio GD NOS11 to the DAVE to my ears, and I would have not justified the investment on the DAVE if I had not upgraded the HD800S as well.

By following this thread on head-fi I have read many raving opinions of the HE1000 / DAVE pairing (which I never heard), perhaps some actual owners could chime in.
Also, LCD4 and Utopia seem a quite common choice among DAVE users.


----------



## Sonic77

simorag said:


> Yes, the Pangea AC14SEmk2 seem like a price / performance champion. They are cheap enough to take the risk to try one and see the results, thank you for you recommendation!
> 
> Also, PS Audio would be my go-to for power regeneration, also because there is a shop nearby that allows loans. Only drawback would be that I would need to buy their new unit, which is currently out of my budget.
> 
> ...





simorag said:


> Yes, the Pangea AC14SEmk2 seem like a price / performance champion. They are cheap enough to take the risk to try one and see the results, thank you for you recommendation!
> 
> Also, PS Audio would be my go-to for power regeneration, also because there is a shop nearby that allows loans. Only drawback would be that I would need to buy their new unit, which is currently out of my budget.
> 
> ...


I just purchased a Pangea AC-14SE MKII, I bought it for my WA 33 tube amp, and man what a difference it made compared to the skinny stock cable. I have been listening for just a short period and there is absolutely a difference. Cables can be snake oily so be careful of ridiculously over priced cables. The WA33 tube amp is worth every penny, make sure to demo before buying, my headphones are the Abyss Phi and Sennheiser hd 800 s.


----------



## ZappaMan

ray-dude said:


> See links below
> 
> I thought the mojo-poly was a hair better than my Mojo via usb, but I haven’t done anything to optimize mojo. Haven’t heard the HugoTt or Qutest yet.


Thank you, I read your review before, I really wanted the Dave afterwards. After re-reading - I really want the Dave! It would be good for you to update your sing score spreadsheet impressions with Dave / blu2.

Thanks


----------



## ray-dude

ZappaMan said:


> Thank you, I read your review before, I really wanted the Dave afterwards. After re-reading - I really want the Dave! It would be good for you to update your sing score spreadsheet impressions with Dave / blu2.
> 
> Thanks



I thought about going through and reevaluating all the tracks in the spreadsheet when I got my Blu2, but I didn't think I could stomach the 15+ hours of additional critical listening (I would have done BluDAVE and BluHugo2 columns, but I would have had to repeat the Mojo/Hugo2/DAVE evals to reset my baseline)

Instead, when I got my Blu2, I did a spot check of Mojo/Hugo2/DAVE/BluHugo2/BluDAVE across 5-10 representative tracks and summarized it in my Blu2 review:

Using the Omega SAMs connected direct (at a reduced volume so as to not push Hugo2 past its limits), qualitatively, I would say if Mojo is an overall 4 and Hugo2 is an overall 6 and DAVE is an overall 10 (using the scale from my Mojo vs Hugo2 vs DAVE review), then BluDAVE is 40, and BluHugo2 is maybe ~25.​
The mScaler really is a milestone achievement.  Given the number of people who after hearing mine, have bought one or have started to price out what they can get for a kidney on the black market, I recommend caution before auditioning one


----------



## Thenewguy007

Sonic77 said:


> I just purchased a Pangea AC-14SE MKII, I bought it for my WA 33 tube amp, and man what a difference it made compared to the skinny stock cable. I have been listening for just a short period and there is absolutely a difference. Cables can be snake oily so be careful of ridiculously over priced cables. The WA33 tube amp is worth every penny, make sure to demo before buying, my headphones are the Abyss Phi and Sennheiser hd 800 s.



$8,000 amp, $6,000 headphone, $10,000 DAC & a $60 power cable.

Something isn't adding up.


----------



## rayl

Thenewguy007 said:


> $8,000 amp, $6,000 headphone, $10,000 DAC & a $60 power cable.
> 
> Something isn't adding up.


Who’s offering such a good deal on the DAC after the jan price increase? Oh you meant something else doesn’t add up,..


----------



## Sonic77

Thenewguy007 said:


> $8,000 amp, $6,000 headphone, $10,000 DAC & a $60 power cable.
> 
> Something isn't adding up.


Right, what isn't adding up? Also I'm using my PS Audio Direct Stream dac with my headphone set up, not my Blu Dave set up, I use the Blu Dave set up with my speakers.


----------



## Accoustic

rayl said:


> Who’s offering such a good deal on the DAC after the jan price increase? Oh you meant something else doesn’t add up,..



He mean reference gears with entry lvl PC that doesn’t add up.


----------



## Hifi Boy

ray-dude said:


> Using the Omega SAMs connected direct (at a reduced volume so as to not push Hugo2 past its limits), qualitatively, I would say if Mojo is an overall 4 and Hugo2 is an overall 6 and DAVE is an overall 10 (using the scale from my Mojo vs Hugo2 vs DAVE review), then BluDAVE is 40, and BluHugo2 is maybe ~25.​


LOL! 40vs10, now that's some improvement! It really sucks that I didn't hear anything when listening to Blu2 last time. Next time, I'll make sure the upsamplig is turned on, because I honestly heard no difference between Dave and Blu2 when I heard it at the show.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Thenewguy007 said:


> $8,000 amp, $6,000 headphone, $10,000 DAC & a $60 power cable.
> 
> Something isn't adding up.


Sometimes very good doesn’t cost a lot of money! Would you argue a Hugo2 isn’t good because it’s $2300 and a DCS or MSB DAC is great because it costs so much? Of course not the Pangea power cords are one of hi end audio bargains they outperform or equal the performance of expensive cords at a reasonable cost!


----------



## ray-dude

Hifi Boy said:


> LOL! 40vs10, now that's some improvement! It really sucks that I didn't hear anything when listening to Blu2 last time. Next time, I'll make sure the upsamplig is turned on, because I honestly heard no difference between Dave and Blu2 when I heard it at the show.



FWIW, with some of my headphones, I heard only a slight improvement, with others only a modest improvement. It was only with the Omegas that I heard that spectacular lift. Humbling to have kit that so clearly and mercilessly shines this bright a light on the weak links in your reproduction chain.


----------



## spotforscott

ray-dude said:


> FWIW, with some of my headphones, I heard only a slight improvement, with others only a modest improvement. It was only with the Omegas that I heard that spectacular lift. Humbling to have kit that so clearly and mercilessly shines this bright a light on the weak links in your reproduction chain.



That raises an interesting question about the value of the relative value of the m-scaler to headphone users. From your description, it sounds like very poor value if you are not also using the m-scaler for a 2 channel rig.


----------



## ray-dude

spotforscott said:


> That raises an interesting question about the value of the relative value of the m-scaler to headphone users. From your description, it sounds like very poor value if you are not also using the m-scaler for a 2 channel rig.



I think it all depends on your equipment (alas, everything matters at this level of performance).  I saw a similar effect going from Hugo2 to DAVE: some headphones hit a scaling limit.  As is our curse in this hobby, when you have any significant equipment upgrade, it starts an upgrade wave that goes through your whole chain.  The Blu2 is particularly striking (at least for me) in the clarity it presents for where you need to focus your energies.  Between Blu2 and DAVE, I am ~80% through replacing everything else in my system to take advantage of that magic.

In general, if your headphones are able to really take advantage of DAVE, you'll hear significant lift when you add a mScaler (you'll be amazed).  In my case, that includes Focal Utopias, Sennheiser HD-800's, MrSpeakers Closed Aeon Flows, etc. (the later two especially are my go to cans with BluDAVE). 

I heard significantly more lift with the Omegas (and I've heard even more lift with my Voxativs), but that just highlighted for me what is possible with the source equipment.  I'm VERY eager to audition HEKv2s/Abyss Phi's/LCD-4's and some of the other headphones that others have recommended (I have a standing open invitation to owners of same in SoCal to drop by for an evening of nice wine, great music, and mScaler


----------



## Sonic77

marcmccalmont said:


> Sometimes very good doesn’t cost a lot of money! Would you argue a Hugo2 isn’t good because it’s $2300 and a DCS or MSB DAC is great because it costs so much? Of course not the Pangea power cords are one of hi end audio bargains they outperform or equal the performance of expensive cords at a reasonable cost!


Thank you marcmccalmont. If you have been in this hobby for any length of time, you find out higher price doesn't always automatically mean better, lots of overpriced mediocre stuff out there.


----------



## Accoustic

Sonic77 said:


> Thank you marcmccalmont. If you have been in this hobby for any length of time, you find out higher price doesn't always automatically mean better, lots of overpriced mediocre stuff out there.


True, too many of those, we just need to look harder.


----------



## spotforscott

ray-dude said:


> I think it all depends on your equipment (alas, everything matters at this level of performance).  I saw a similar effect going from Hugo2 to DAVE: some headphones hit a scaling limit.  As is our curse in this hobby, when you have any significant equipment upgrade, it starts an upgrade wave that goes through your whole chain.  The Blu2 is particularly striking (at least for me) in the clarity it presents for where you need to focus your energies.  Between Blu2 and DAVE, I am ~80% through replacing everything else in my system to take advantage of that magic.
> 
> In general, if your headphones are able to really take advantage of DAVE, you'll hear significant lift when you add a mScaler (you'll be amazed).  In my case, that includes Focal Utopias, Sennheiser HD-800's, MrSpeakers Closed Aeon Flows, etc. (the later two especially are my go to cans with BluDAVE).
> 
> I heard significantly more lift with the Omegas (and I've heard even more lift with my Voxativs), but that just highlighted for me what is possible with the source equipment.  I'm VERY eager to audition HEKv2s/Abyss Phi's/LCD-4's and some of the other headphones that others have recommended (I have a standing open invitation to owners of same in SoCal to drop by for an evening of nice wine, great music, and mScaler



Thanks, Ray. I was under the assumption that a TOTL headphone could not produce the depth that a 2 channel system could but could exceed 2 channel in terms of added inner detail. But that net-net, both would significantly benefit from Blu2, just in different ways. Your comments above had me wondering whether I was totally off the mark on that front. At any rate, I will be getting my first TOTL headphones this week (Abys Phi) so I will be able to judge for myself. I will be comparing to the Abyss Phi vs DAVE directly driving my 2 channel HE speakers.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Mar 26, 2018)

Sonic77 said:


> Thank you marcmccalmont. If you have been in this hobby for any length of time, you find out higher price doesn't always automatically mean better, lots of overpriced mediocre stuff out there.


I’ll repeat it again for others in the last year or so several products stood out as way better than their price point:
Chord Hugo2
ProJect CD Box rs
Lifatec toslink cable
Pangea AC 14 and AC 9 power cords
Wireworld Starlight 7 USB cable
Questyle CMA 800 R headphone amp
Beyer DT 880 Pro 250 ohm
And a few products are state of the art but expensive:
Blu2/Dave
Spectral amps
Clearer Audio coax
Marc

If you really want to piss off your brother in law that has the mediocre $100,000 system spin a disk on a ProJect cd box rs lifatec tos Hugo2 Beyer dt880 Pro’s then tell him you have less than $4500 into it!


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> brother in law that has the mediocre $100,000 system



Boasting again!


----------



## marcmccalmont

Triode User said:


> Boasting again!





Triode User said:


> Boasting again!


i think we all have one!


----------



## simorag

ray-dude said:


> I'm VERY eager to audition HEKv2s/Abyss Phi's/LCD-4's and some of the other headphones that others have recommended (I have a standing open invitation to owners of same in SoCal to drop by for an evening of nice wine, great music, and mScaler



I wish I lived in SoCal to accept your invitation, I would be more than happy to bring my Abyss Phi and one of my best wine collection bottles (what about a 1990 Amarone dal Forno?) to your place and have great time together, and become a beholder of the mScaler miracles


----------



## ray-dude

simorag said:


> I wish I lived in SoCal to accept your invitation, I would be more than happy to bring my Abyss Phi and one of my best wine collection bottles (what about a 1990 Amarone dal Forno?) to your place and have great time together, and become a beholder of the mScaler miracles



For that we’d fire up Enzo Pietropaoli’s “La Notte” album, which is particularly amazing with mScaler and wine


----------



## Hifi Boy

ray-dude said:


> FWIW, with some of my headphones, I heard only a slight improvement, with others only a modest improvement. It was only with the Omegas that I heard that spectacular lift. Humbling to have kit that so clearly and mercilessly shines this bright a light on the weak links in your reproduction chain.


Ok, got it. But wouldn't you say that with the HEK I should have heard a lot more than I did, which is nothing?

Furthermore, I'm assuming that, even though Dave's headphone output is great, connecting BluDave to a high-end amp would bring about even more difference.


----------



## rgs9200m

The Grado PS2000e is very musical and profound with my DAVE. (So is the PS1000e if you can find one; a bit warmer and a bit less detailed, but still extremely musical and sort of on a par with the PS2000e if you like the more easygoing sound.)


----------



## SCBob

rgs9200m said:


> The Grado PS2000e is very musical and profound with my DAVE. (So is the PS1000e if you can find one; a bit warmer and a bit less detailed, but still extremely musical and sort of on a par with the PS2000e if you like the more easygoing sound.)


Are you able to compare the PS2000e to the Utopia? I have the Utopia and have been very interested in the Grado after reading reviews.


----------



## Hifi Boy

rgs9200m said:


> The Grado PS2000e is very musical and profound with my DAVE. (So is the PS1000e if you can find one; a bit warmer and a bit less detailed, but still extremely musical and sort of on a par with the PS2000e if you like the more easygoing sound.)


HEK is also very musical and profound with Dave. 

I'm just sharing my experience of being underwhelmed when listening to BluDave. Later on I realized that there is an off switch on Blu2 so that must have been the train why it skinned just like Dave.

That or it was faulty, I see no other reasonable explanation.


----------



## rolandpsp

This question is mainly for Rob Watts but also for anyone else who might know the intricacies :

I am looking at dave + dave + hugo 2 as a potential solution for active 3 way dsp speakers and am wondering how the clock sync would work between the 3 dacs considering they would all be fed from the same DSP board.


----------



## miketlse

rolandpsp said:


> This question is mainly for Rob Watts but also for anyone else who might know the intricacies :
> 
> I am looking at dave + dave + hugo 2 as a potential solution for active 3 way dsp speakers and am wondering how the clock sync would work between the 3 dacs considering they would all be fed from the same DSP board.


There is no clock sync.
I was wondering about using 3 Mojos, plus a computer as input, as the source for a 5.1 AV setup, as a means to listen to surround sound music files. I concluded that without any ability to sync the Mojos, there was always a risk that I would be throwing my money away. You have the same issue, but using much more expensive dacs.
I am sure that there would be a market, if Chord packaged 3 Mojos in a AV unit - I think it would wipe the floor with 99% of AV setups.


----------



## rolandpsp

miketlse said:


> There is no clock sync.
> I was wondering about using 3 Mojos, plus a computer as input, as the source for a 5.1 AV setup, as a means to listen to surround sound music files. I concluded that without any ability to sync the Mojos, there was always a risk that I would be throwing my money away. You have the same issue, but using much more expensive dacs.
> I am sure that there would be a market, if Chord packaged 3 Mojos in a AV unit - I think it would wipe the floor with 99% of AV setups.




Thank you, i thought that might be the case.

Regarding the Mojo, i have a mojo, when i bought it i thought it's good/ok definetely destroyed my pc integrated sound card but one month later i got a Soekris Dac1541 and i have to say the difference is very very large in favour of the soekris. Yes it is twice the price but the soekris also has models in it's price range and from what i've read, the differences are not extreme. In my experience, differences between mojo and dac1541 ARE extreme. 

Yes, it is portable, but it loses badly on resolution, soundstaging, transparency and pretty much everything while punching an unnatural low bass. That is on he560 and LSR305 speakers, as dac/pre and dac/amp.

Never heard the hugo and am keeping the dave in mind as a viable solution for a future stereo system where i want the best transparency attainable. 

If chord was smart and customer loving they would have packaged hugo with poly and be done with it. That was the path of common sense.

I'm not a chord hater but imho mojo is overpriced....by a good margin, and poly.....

I'm not afilliated with soekris but i was definetely impressed by the quality for price.


----------



## Triode User

Hifi Boy said:


> HEK is also very musical and profound with Dave.
> 
> I'm just sharing my experience of being underwhelmed when listening to BluDave. Later on I realized that there is an off switch on Blu2 so that must have been the train why it skinned just like Dave.
> 
> That or it was faulty, I see no other reasonable explanation.



The on/off switch on the rear of Blu2 is a mains switch which stops all power to all Blu2 circuits. If it was in the off position then no sound would be heard at all through the system.


----------



## doraymon

3 Mojos, 2 Daves 1 Hugo... 
I felt terrible ordering a Dave after having sold half of my gear!
I guess it’s all relative...


----------



## TheAttorney

Hifi Boy said:


> HEK is also very musical and profound with Dave.
> I'm just sharing my experience of being underwhelmed when listening to BluDave. Later on I realized that there is an off switch on Blu2 so that must have been the train why it skinned just like Dave.
> That or it was faulty, I see no other reasonable explanation.



There are a small number of us who have previously reported that we were underwhelmed by the Blu2 addition. In my case, I heard a good improvement, but didn't consider it worth the £8k cost. So I'm prepared to wait for the standalone m-scaler (I didn't care much for Blu2's aesthetics and lid operation either). In the meantime, my HEK V2's continue to be a fantastic match with solo DAVE and continue to show their transparency and scalability with the tiniest upstream improvements. I don't know why I didn't hear the amazing thinngs that other Blu2 owners have reported, but life's too short to agonise over it .


----------



## AndrewOld

miketlse said:


> There is no clock sync.
> I was wondering about using 3 Mojos, plus a computer as input, as the source for a 5.1 AV setup, as a means to listen to surround sound music files. I concluded that without any ability to sync the Mojos, there was always a risk that I would be throwing my money away. You have the same issue, but using much more expensive dacs.
> I am sure that there would be a market, if Chord packaged 3 Mojos in a AV unit - I think it would wipe the floor with 99% of AV setups.



I’ve used active speakers for many years, and I think that is a very interesting idea. Although you couldn’t sync the mojos, I am sure the effects of any minute lack of sync would be as nothing compared to the gross timing errors introduced by passive crossovers. But you would need a very good digital crossover before the mojos. Who knows, maybe one day in the future there will be multi-channel Chord DACS/amps with configurable crossovers that you connect straight to your drive units for a fully active system.


----------



## tunes

Clive101 said:


> Have you auditioned the LCD-4, perhaps worth a try..? If your looking for warm-ish sound, they work very well with Dave.
> 
> As regard to power conditioning, I found greater difference with a speaker set up, in fact when I removed my power conditioning it was so bad I gave up...!
> With a headphone setup direct from Dave, try some Supra mains shielded mains cable. *Always try before you buy* and make your own decision.
> ...



Can anyone advise about interference between DAVE and wi ROUTER/cable modem/WiFi transmitter?  How far away should these kinds of gear be from DAVE?  I have an Aurender that will be my digital music server and it needs to be connected to a WiFi Apple Extreme.  Also have a large LED TV and FIOS modem near by.   I just put in a dedicated AC line and don’t want to worry about wireless interference with my DAVE. Any help here appreciated.


----------



## Clive101 (Mar 28, 2018)

tunes said:


> Can anyone advise about interference between DAVE and wi ROUTER/cable modem/WiFi transmitter?  How far away should these kinds of gear be from DAVE?  I have an Aurender that will be my digital music server and it needs to be connected to a WiFi Apple Extreme.  Also have a large LED TV and FIOS modem near by.I just put in a dedicated AC line and don’t want to worry about wireless interference with my DAVE. Any help here appreciated.



I found network noise an issue (I have a very large network) I have a Melco (USB direct to Dave) which allows playback (from the front panel) without connection to a network.

The SQ difference without the network attached is better buy a large margin, lower noise.

I now use a Draytek AP-902 to connect to the network when I need to control Melco by Tablet via an app.

( http://www.draytek.co.uk/products/business/vigorap-902 )

I had listen (quick test) with and without the AP-902, sounded similar in SQ, when I have time, I could do more of a detailed valuation on SQ.

I also wonder if the wireless signal affects the HiFi but I lowered the signal power output, again untested.


----------



## miketlse

AndrewOld said:


> I’ve used active speakers for many years, and I think that is a very interesting idea. Although you couldn’t sync the mojos, I am sure the effects of any minute lack of sync would be as nothing compared to the gross timing errors introduced by passive crossovers. But you would need a very good digital crossover before the mojos. Who knows, maybe one day in the future there will be multi-channel Chord DACS/amps with configurable crossovers that you connect straight to your drive units for a fully active system.


Thanks for your encouraging words. I came to the same conclusion that a good digital output board would be needed - there are plenty of 5.1 files available, and in theory it should be possible to write code to divide these into 3 * stereo usb streams, but then you would need to output all 3 streams in sync to the Mojos, and I was not convinced that a normal computer motherboard would be up to the job. So this thought experiment was placed on the back burner, and forgotten about.


----------



## tunes

Clive101 said:


> I found network noise an issue (I have a very large network) I have a Melco (USB direct to Dave) which allows playback (from the front panel) without connection to a network.
> 
> The SQ difference without the network attached is better buy a large margin, lower noise.
> 
> ...


----------



## tunes (Mar 28, 2018)

Not sure I can move my Fios modem and apple WiFi device out of the listening room as the TV is there and my music server needs to be directly connected to the network to allow use of iPad to control server.   If I move DAVE away from these sources what distance would be optimal?


----------



## AndrewOld (Mar 28, 2018)

miketlse said:


> Thanks for your encouraging words. I came to the same conclusion that a good digital output board would be needed - there are plenty of 5.1 files available, and in theory it should be possible to write code to divide these into 3 * stereo usb streams, but then you would need to output all 3 streams in sync to the Mojos, and I was not convinced that a normal computer motherboard would be up to the job. So this thought experiment was placed on the back burner, and forgotten about.



Well I guess the ideal for me  would be for Rob Watts code to do the crossover, with the requisite amount of taps, otherwise you run the risk of losing information. Not sure about 3 USB streams .. tricky to sync .. maybe spdif would be better .. I think there are people using J River to make active crossovers maybe check their forum out.. I am not smart enough to know how it should best be done, but since our man is working on digital power amplifiers there’s no reason you couldn’t have a set of them, bandwidth restricted with the appropriate crossover slopes, driving speakers actively. You’ll need a gold mine in your garden to affford it though. Active speakers seem to me to be inherently more sensible; it just has to be better to couple an amplifier directly to a drive unit rather than try and get power through a mass of inductors, capacitors and resistors. Companies like Linn, who make active loudspeakers, are digitally correcting for individual drive unit variations - makes sense to me.


----------



## dmance (Mar 28, 2018)

miketlse said:


> Thanks for your encouraging words. I came to the same conclusion that a good digital output board would be needed - there are plenty of 5.1 files available, and in theory it should be possible to write code to divide these into 3 * stereo usb streams, but then you would need to output all 3 streams in sync to the Mojos, and I was not convinced that a normal computer motherboard would be up to the job. So this thought experiment was placed on the back burner, and forgotten about.


_RME produces an affordable DIGIFACE USB product that splits a single USB into four TOSLINK outputs ...all in sync.  Link here. _EDIT:  DOES NOT SUPPORT USB OUTPUT - Only TOSLINK routing - (My Bad)


----------



## miketlse

dmance said:


> _RME produces an affordable DIGIFACE USB product that splits a single USB into four TOSLINK outputs ...all in sync.  Link here. _EDIT:  DOES NOT SUPPORT USB OUTPUT - Only TOSLINK routing - (My Bad)


Interesting. I wonder if anyone has tried connecting a raspberry pi, to an optical drive plus a ssd drive, and feeding the usb output to the digiface box, and outputting 3 optical streams to 3 dacs (eg mojos or daves)? Maybe this is already a secret project in Robs skunk works lab.


----------



## seaice

Hi all, I have Dave at home for several days and I would like to hear the best of it before my final buying decision. Which digital input is the best? I started my home session with AES/EBU.


----------



## doraymon (Mar 28, 2018)

OT: waiting for the Dave to arrive I purchased the Uptone MMK to transform my Mac Mini to DC and bought an HDPlex 200W power supply to feed Mac Mini and WiFi bridge so to eliminate any noisy SMPS.
Yesterday I installed the kit, expected time 45min, actual time 2.5h... plus I managed to:
1) destroy the 5 pins of the IR sensor / front panel led light plug on the motherboard
2) forget to reinstall the screw which was holding the original SMPS in the Mac Mini
Final result is I slept 3h and I will probably have to reopen the Mac Mini, even though everything is working properly at the moment.

Actually I was thinking that one led/sensor less will only help to avoid useless noise in the Mac. I never used the IR sensor anyway and the front panel light is not a must.
Just sharing the frustration.


----------



## Sonic77

doraymon said:


> OT: waiting for the Dave to arrive I purchased the Uptone MMK to transform my Mac Mini to DC and bought an HDPlex 200W power supply to feed Mac Mini and WiFi bridge so to eliminate any noisy SMPS.
> Yesterday I installed the kit, expected time 45min, actual time 2.5h... plus I managed to:
> 1) destroy the 5 pins of the IR sensor / front panel led light plug on the motherboard
> 2) forget to reinstall the screw which was holding the original SMPS in the Mac Mini
> ...


Did it make a difference sound wise?


----------



## doraymon (Mar 28, 2018)

Sonic77 said:


> Did it make a difference sound wise?


Hard to tell without a DAC! I’m still waiting for my Dave and have sold all previous DACs to finance it!
I won’t be able to do a real A/B but I do t mind, it’s a matter of “Audio Hygiene”, I’m trying to remove any noisy SMPS, the only one left is the one powering the AQVOX AQ-SWITCH-SE, but they claim it’s not noisy.
I upgraded all stock power cords to Audioquest NRG-X3 for the HDPLEX and the two sPS-500 power supplies powering the network player and the headphone amp.
For the Dave I will try to use the Ice Age Audio Copper/Copper or Silver/Silver I already have, I’m not sure it’s worth investing more money in crazy expensive power cables.
Everything is plugged in into two mains filters/conditioners from Consonance (Opera Audio).


----------



## Rob Watts (Mar 28, 2018)

rolandpsp said:


> This question is mainly for Rob Watts but also for anyone else who might know the intricacies :
> 
> I am looking at dave + dave + hugo 2 as a potential solution for active 3 way dsp speakers and am wondering how the clock sync would work between the 3 dacs considering they would all be fed from the same DSP board.



When I developed the DPLL I ensured that the buffer latency would amount to the same even when two units are asynchronous to one another. The absolute max possible drift is 5uS (then the DPLL is given a nudge to adjust the phase to 0 uS phase shift, then after that the phase is disconnected and only frequency locked, so source jitter has no bearing on the output), and that's about 1.8 mm shift with audio in air; in practice with a locked quality source clock they will all naturally line up to be about 1uS with one another - that's about one third of a millimetre. So I don't see it as an issue with what you propose. All current DAC's have the identical DPLL code.

Edit: this of course assumes the source is identical to all DAC's in terms of timing - which would happen if you paralleled up SPDIF connection


----------



## dac64 (Mar 29, 2018)

dmance said:


> _RME produces an affordable DIGIFACE USB product that splits a single USB into four TOSLINK outputs ...all in sync.  Link here. _EDIT:  DOES NOT SUPPORT USB OUTPUT - Only TOSLINK routing - (My Bad)



Have you receive the USB to TOSLINK converter? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/HIF...gital-interface-MuRata-Audio/32813688802.html.

If yes, does it works?


----------



## Sonic77

doraymon said:


> Hard to tell without a DAC! I’m still waiting for my Dave and have sold all previous DACs to finance it!
> I won’t be able to do a real A/B but I do t mind, it’s a matter of “Audio Hygiene”, I’m trying to remove any noisy SMPS, the only one left is the one powering the AQVOX AQ-SWITCH-SE, but they claim it’s not noisy.
> I upgraded all stock power cords to Audioquest NRG-X3 for the HDPLEX and the two sPS-500 power supplies powering the network player and the headphone amp.
> For the Dave I will try to use the Ice Age Audio Copper/Copper or Silver/Silver I already have, I’m not sure it’s worth investing more money in crazy expensive power cables.
> Everything is plugged in into two mains filters/conditioners from Consonance (Opera Audio).


Opps forgot that you said that you were waiting for your Dave. Keep us updated when you get it, some people believe power cords make a difference some don't, I think they do.


----------



## dmance

I think I've lost some respect for Darko.Audio ...who in this review, chose to test the Genelec 8341 active monitors with a Chord DAVE ...and went about to comment on the sound quality.  Well, Hello John!, the Genelec analog inputs are converted to digital (24/96), then DSP processed, then converted back to analog (24/96) for amplification.  So all DAVE's timing accuracy, up-sampling to 768khz and output stage transparency are mostly wasted..  Oh, well ...he still says the DAVE sounds great !


----------



## dmance

dac64 said:


> Have you receive the USB to TOSLINK converter? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/HIF...gital-interface-MuRata-Audio/32813688802.html.
> If yes, does it works?


Still waiting for shipping from China.  35 more days....!


----------



## dac64

dmance said:


> Still waiting for shipping from China.  35 more days....!


----------



## Hifi Boy

@Triode User 

I see, so it was on for a fact because I listened a CD, so that means I was either lestening to 500K or in the best case 1M taps

@TheAttorney 

This just goes to show that I wasn't crazy. But it doesn't explain why either you, me or anyone who says they were not impressed by Blu2 say so, when most people say its sublime. There has to be something missing in the equation. I will without a doubt admit that Dave is clearly better at 150K taps vs Hugo2's 50K taps. So 500K/1M should be clearly discernible over 150K, but to me, it wasn't. For the record I listened to Blu2 + Dave, through Dave's headphone out.

And yes, I share your view of HEK + solo Dave. Same opinion, sounds great, no fault to the sound presentation at all.


----------



## Hifi Boy

dmance said:


> I think I've lost some respect for Darko.Audio ...who in this review, chose to test the Genelec 8341 active monitors with a Chord DAVE ...and went about to comment on the sound quality.  Well, Hello John!, the Genelec analog inputs are converted to digital (24/96), then DSP processed, then converted back to analog (24/96) for amplification.  So all DAVE's timing accuracy, up-sampling to 768khz and output stage transparency are mostly wasted..  Oh, well ...he still says the DAVE sounds great !


He added Dave to his Dac index at the Premiere league level.

Well, that's all fine and good, but the problem is that Hugo2 is in that tier as well. We here know for a fact that Hugo2 is not in the same league as Dave, so this is certainly doing injustice to Dave. It would be better if he just made a new Ultra Premier League tier and placed Dave there, the index would make a lot more sense.

https://darko.audio/the-darko-dac-index/


----------



## Sonic77

Hifi Boy said:


> He added Dave to his Dac index at the Premiere league level.
> 
> Well, that's all fine and good, but the problem is that Hugo2 is in that tier as well. We here know for a fact that Hugo2 is not in the same league as Dave, so this is certainly doing injustice to Dave. It would be better if he just made a new Ultra Premier League tier and placed Dave there, the index would make a lot more sense.
> 
> https://darko.audio/the-darko-dac-index/


Or Hugo2 should be kicked down to Division 1, where it belongs. PSA DS is in his Premier league, where it belongs.


----------



## doraymon

Sonic77 said:


> Or Hugo2 should be kicked down to Division 1, where it belongs. PSA DS is in his Premier league, where it belongs.


Or maybe it’s a value for money league...


----------



## Hifi Boy

Sonic77 said:


> Or Hugo2 should be kicked down to Division 1, where it belongs. PSA DS is in his Premier league, where it belongs.


Hehe, careful now. There  are may Chord fans in this thread. 

Anyways, I've never had the opportunity to hear anything above Torreys on the DS, so I can't say. Your heard both Dave and RedCloud I presume, so you'd be in a better position to judge.


----------



## Hifi Boy

doraymon said:


> Or maybe it’s a value for money league...


H2 is an insane value for money, no doubt about that.


----------



## Mojo ideas

Sonic77 said:


> Or Hugo2 should be kicked down to Division 1, where it belongs. PSA DS is in his Premier league, where it belongs.


Unfair comment when technically few other DACs on the planet come anywhere near the true performance of Hugo 2. Of course you may say well he would say that wouldn’t he, but it’s verifiably an accurate statement.


----------



## Triode User

Hifi Boy said:


> Hehe, careful now. There  are may Chord fans in this thread.
> 
> Anyways, I've never had the opportunity to hear anything above Torreys on the DS, so I can't say. Your heard both Dave and RedCloud I presume, so you'd be in a better position to judge.



I have heard Dave compared to RedCloud on a DirectStream in the same system and listening to the same music. Back to back, direct comparison. Dave wins hands down for me but that is not to deride the PSA DirectStream DAC which is a class act. More it's just that Dave does everything for me in a way that I prefer. Then we tried Blu2 and that just hammered down the nails in the coffin.


----------



## Hifi Boy

Triode User said:


> I have heard Dave compared to RedCloud on a DirectStream in the same system and listening to the same music. Back to back, direct comparison. Dave wins hands down for me but that is not to deride the PSA DirectStream DAC which is a class act. More it's just that Dave does everything for me in a way that I prefer. Then we tried Blu2 and that just hammered down the nails in the coffin.


 I know what you mean. It would seem to me that maybe people who don't see Dave as being far ahead of DS, may not care all that much about certain aspects that Dave is good at. Namely, the spatial reproduction.

It could vey well be the case that DS and Dave are close in some other aspect that Sonic77 cares more about.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Hifi Boy said:


> I know what you mean. It would seem to me that maybe people who don't see Dave as being far ahead of DS, may not care all that much about certain aspects that Dave is good at. Namely, the spatial reproduction.
> 
> It could vey well be the case that DS and Dave are close in some other aspect that Sonic77 cares more about.



Well he did say the DS had a fuller sound & not as bright. That's definitely a sound preference.

I've seen a review of the Blu2/Dave combo that said it made the Dave sound thin in comparison when using it without the Blu2. Anyone else think maybe the Dave could benefit in having a more thicker meaty sound?


----------



## Sonic77

Ok so we all have difference of opinions, it's all good 


Hifi Boy said:


> Hehe, careful now. There  are may Chord fans in this thread.
> 
> Anyways, I've never had the opportunity to hear anything above Torreys on the DS, so I can't say. Your heard both Dave and RedCloud I presume, so you'd be in a better position to judge.


Oh yeah Red cloud is a whole different animal.


Mojo ideas said:


> Unfair comment when technically few other DACs on the planet come anywhere near the true performance of Hugo 2. Of course you may say well he would say that wouldn’t he, but it’s verifiably an accurate statement.


 Unfair your biased, lol.


Triode User said:


> I have heard Dave compared to RedCloud on a DirectStream in the same system and listening to the same music. Back to back, direct comparison. Dave wins hands down for me but that is not to deride the PSA DirectStream DAC which is a class act. More it's just that Dave does everything for me in a way that I prefer. Then we tried Blu2 and that just hammered down the nails in the coffin.


 I'm surprised you said that! Shocking! 


Thenewguy007 said:


> Well he did say the DS had a fuller sound & not as bright. That's definitely a sound preference.
> 
> I've seen a review of the Blu2/Dave combo that said it made the Dave sound thin in comparison when using it without the Blu2. Anyone else think maybe the Dave could benefit in having a more thicker meaty sound?


Yes 


Hifi Boy said:


> I know what you mean. It would seem to me that maybe people who don't see Dave as being far ahead of DS, may not care all that much about certain aspects that Dave is good at. Namely, the spatial reproduction.
> 
> It could vey well be the case that DS and Dave are close in some other aspect that Sonic77 cares more about.


 Exactly.


----------



## Deftone

Emerald Core said:


> Gents, I am sorry if this is irrelevant, but i know most of you know about the Hugo TT.
> I am getting an offer of a demo HugoTT for 2000 GBP from an authorized dealer with warranty.
> 1- Should I get Hugo TT for 2k pounds?
> 2- Or Should i go with Qutest+ quality headamp ?
> 3- Suck it with a mojo and save up for the Dave?



4- Get a Mojo and some decent IEMs, spend rest of the money on traveling/holidays and take Mojo with you.


----------



## jlbrach

Triode User said:


> I have heard Dave compared to RedCloud on a DirectStream in the same system and listening to the same music. Back to back, direct comparison. Dave wins hands down for me but that is not to deride the PSA DirectStream DAC which is a class act. More it's just that Dave does everything for me in a way that I prefer. Then we tried Blu2 and that just hammered down the nails in the coffin.



I own both the PS  Audio and the dave/blu2......the dave combo is definitely better but 5 times the cost......the PS Audi is a fine product and has terrific networking abilities


----------



## doraymon

I know I've been asking this before, but I'm not yet convinced...
Before I invest another salary or so on a new interconnect, can someone clarify why shall I chose the Dave's RCA over the XLR output to the headphone amp?
Is that a general golden rule or it depends?


----------



## marcmccalmont

doraymon said:


> I know I've been asking this before, but I'm not yet convinced...
> Before I invest another salary or so on a new interconnect, can someone clarify why shall I chose the Dave's RCA over the XLR output to the headphone amp?
> Is that a general golden rule or it depends?


For headphones you want to take advantage of the crossfeed function which I believe is only available through the 1/4” phono jack in the front. On both my Dave and Hugo2 I made a 1/4” phono to rca cable. The single ended output either on the front or the rear has one less gain stage than the balanced output.


----------



## Hifi Boy

doraymon said:


> I know I've been asking this before, but I'm not yet convinced...
> Before I invest another salary or so on a new interconnect, can someone clarify why shall I chose the Dave's RCA over the XLR output to the headphone amp?
> Is that a general golden rule or it depends?


 Someone said that transformers are in the XLR path so its less transparent. And something about Dave being a single ended and not a balanced DAC. Not sure whether that's true, you should wait for other people's answers and then make a decision.


----------



## doraymon

marcmccalmont said:


> The single ended output either on the front or the rear has one less gain stage than the balanced output.


So having one less gain stage is the advantage?
Excuse my ignorance but I am always looking for the technical explanation, when there is one.


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> For headphones you want to take advantage of the crossfeed function which I believe is only available through the 1/4” phono jack in the front. On both my Dave and Hugo2 I made a 1/4” phono to rca cable. The single ended output either on the front or the rear has one less gain stage than the balanced output.



I don't think you are right about the crossfeed on the Dave. Although Headphone Mode has to be engaged by inserting a jack in the front in order to be able to set  up crossfeed, the crossfeed continues in action through the RCA outputs and XLR outputs at the rear even when the jackplug is withdrawn and Headphone Mode is disengaged. In other words, once set up, crossfeed applies to all outputs including RCA and XLR.


----------



## TheAttorney (Apr 1, 2018)

Triode User said:


> I don't think you are right about the crossfeed on the Dave. Although Headphone Mode has to be engaged by inserting a jack in the front in order to be able to set  up crossfeed, the crossfeed continues in action through the RCA outputs and XLR outputs at the rear even when the jackplug is withdrawn and Headphone Mode is disengaged. In other words, once set up, crossfeed applies to all outputs including RCA and XLR.


Yes, I agree this is the case, and a useful feature to have for those using external amps - as long as you remember how to engage the mode. EDIT: It's useful, but not very user friendly, as per the subsequent posts.

@doraymon, regarding RCA vs XLR, the RCA has the advantage as already stated because there is one less stage that creates the balanced output.
However, it still depends on the amp you are connecting to. If the amp is a singled ended design, then no question that RCA is better. But if the amp is a fully balanced design, then it's possible that DAVE's XLR output would be the best match.
When I had my fully balanced BHSE electrostat amp, I easily preferred DAVE's XLR output. This wasn't an equal comparison because the cable manufacturers were different and had different sound signatures (although it was the RCA cable that was the more expensive).

So in conclusion, DAVE's RCA output does start with a slight advantage, but it still depends what you're connecting to.


----------



## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> @doraymon, regarding RCA vs XLR, the RCA has the advantage as already stated because there is one less stage that create thes balanced output.
> However, it still depends on the amp you are connecting to. If the amp is a singled ended design, then no question that RCA is better. But if the amp is a fully balanced design, then its possible that DAVE's XLR output would be the best match.
> When I had my fully balanced BHSE electrostat amp, I easily prefered DAVE's XLR output. This wasn't an equal comparison because the cable manufacturers were different and had different sound signatures (although it was the RCA cable that was the more expensive).
> 
> So in conclusion, DAVE's RCA output does start with a slight advantage, but it still depends what you're connecting to.



I agree with all of that. Having tried both RCA and XLR outputs I decided I preferred the XLR into my Pass Labs XA60.8. Another reason is that I am running long interconnect cables so that I can get the monobloc amps next to the speakers to get the speaker cables down to 60cm (2ft) length.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Triode User said:


> I don't think you are right about the crossfeed on the Dave. Although Headphone Mode has to be engaged by inserting a jack in the front in order to be able to set  up crossfeed, the crossfeed continues in action through the RCA outputs and XLR outputs at the rear even when the jackplug is withdrawn and Headphone Mode is disengaged. In other words, once set up, crossfeed applies to all outputs including RCA and XLR.


Are you sure when I disconnect the phono plug the crossfeed function disappears from Dave’s menu? How about Hugo2?


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> Are you sure when I disconnect the phono plug the crossfeed function disappears from Dave’s menu? How about Hugo2?



Yes, I’m sure. There has been some criticism that the display implies that Crossfeed is turned off but in fact carries on applied to all outputs even when the headphone mode is disabled by withdrawing the headphone jack. In fact there is no way of telling if Crossfeed is engaged without inserting a headphone jack apart from listening.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Mar 31, 2018)

Triode User said:


> Yes, I’m sure. There has been some criticism that the display implies that Crossfeed is turned off but in fact carries on applied to all outputs even when the headphone mode is disabled by withdrawing the headphone jack. In fact there is no way of telling if Crossfeed is engaged without inserting a headphone jack apart from listening.


I read the manual to say the crossfeed function is only available in “headphone mode” perhaps @Rob Watts  can clarify?


----------



## ray-dude

I don’t have the post handy, but Rob has previously verified that if you set crossfeed in headphone mode, it is still active when you unplug the headphones. 

I can 100% verify this from sad experience (the embarrassment of trying and failing to figure out why my two channel imaging was  off has been seared in my genetic memory)


----------



## rayl

ray-dude said:


> I don’t have the post handy, but Rob has previously verified that if you set crossfeed in headphone mode, it is still active when you unplug the headphones.
> 
> I can 100% verify this from sad experience (the embarrassment of trying and failing to figure out why my two channel imaging was  off has been seared in my genetic memory)



The post is at:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-670#post-14048894

"Yes mia culpa; I had intended that crossfeed control would get disabled when not in headphone mode; but lots of people prefer the option to be there (I have once or twice found it useful myself with some speaker set-ups), so I decided to keep the mistake in place. But you need to remember to unset it though when going back to speakers."


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> I read the manual to say the crossfeed function is only available in “headphone mode” perhaps @Rob Watts  can clarify?



Read it carefully. It says that in Headphone mode you can set the cross feed. You assumed that meant that the crossfeed only applied to headphone mode. An amendment to the user manual would seem overdue.


----------



## marcmccalmont

rayl said:


> The post is at:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-670#post-14048894
> 
> "Yes mia culpa; I had intended that crossfeed control would get disabled when not in headphone mode; but lots of people prefer the option to be there (I have once or twice found it useful myself with some speaker set-ups), so I decided to keep the mistake in place. But you need to remember to unset it though when going back to speakers."





Triode User said:


> Read it carefully. It says that in Headphone mode you can set the cross feed. You assumed that meant that the crossfeed only applied to headphone mode. An amendment to the user manual would seem overdue.


you know what they say about assuming!


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> you know what they say about assuming!



Yep, arse out of you and me.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Triode User said:


> Yep, arse out of you and me.


Hugo2 appears to behave opposite crossfeed for phono jack only


----------



## AndrewOld (Mar 31, 2018)

marcmccalmont said:


> I read the manual to say the crossfeed function is only available in “headphone mode” perhaps @Rob Watts  can clarify?



The crossfeed mode persists even when you remove the headphone jack from the DAVE. There is no visible indication of this. It is very easy to test that this is the case. I am not one of the supposedly “lots of people” who “prefer the option to be there”. It is just a mistake.  If you have been switching between a headphone setting with crossfeed and using speakers without setting the crossfeed to zero you have been listening to substantial crosstalk and distortion through your speakers. Rather than correct the manual, Chord should correct the product.


----------



## marcmccalmont

AndrewOld said:


> The crossfeed mode persists even when you remove the headphone jack from the DAVE. There is no visible indication of this. It is very easy to test that this is the case. I am not one of the supposedly “lots of people” who “prefer the option to be there”. It is just a mistake.  If you have been switching between a headphone setting with crossfeed and using speakers without setting the crossfeed to zero you have been listening to substantial crosstalk and distortion through your speakers. Rather than correct the manual, Chord should correct the product.


I agree it apears that Hugo2 acts correctly. At least make it optional on Dave!


----------



## Sonic77

AndrewOld said:


> The crossfeed mode persists even when you remove the headphone jack from the DAVE. There is no visible indication of this. It is very easy to test that this is the case. I am not one of the supposedly “lots of people” who “prefer the option to be there”. It is just a mistake.  If you have been switching between a headphone setting with crossfeed and using speakers without setting the crossfeed to zero you have been listening to substantial crosstalk and distortion through your speakers. Rather than correct the manual, Chord should correct the product.


Poor design maybe?


----------



## Mojo ideas (Mar 31, 2018)

Sonic77 said:


> Poor design maybe?


No we could have changed this but Rob and myself still have cd collections many of which have Music  with instruments panned hard left or right this was a mistake of earlier recording engineers who were perhaps too enamered with “stereo” at the time.  just listen to kinda blue (ignore the mic distortion on the beginning of most tracks Miles was just too close!)   and you’ll see what I mean about some instruments being out of place in spacial terms. Then try the same track with Robs cross feed on one of the cross feed setting to suit your speakers  .... The music is so much better that way. One demo from Rob proved the case to me and I stopped arguing with him ...... aquiecing I let him win on this one point .... yes we still argue.... it’s okay ....it’s creative.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Mojo ideas said:


> No we could have changed this but Rob and myself still have cd collections many of which have Music  with instruments panned hard left or right this was a mistake of earlier recording engineers who were perhaps too enamered with “stereo” at the time.  just listen to kinda blue (ignore the mic distortion on the beginning of most tracks Miles was just too close!)   and you’ll see what I mean about some instruments being out of place in spacial terms. Then try the same track with Robs cross feed on one of the cross feed setting to suit your speakers  .... The music is so much better that way. One demo from Rob proved the case to me and I stopped arguing with him ...... aquiecing I let him win on this one point .... yes we still argue.... it’s okay ....it’s creative.



Which is why I think the remastered Beatles stereo CDs are unlistenable unless I use my DAVE with crossfeed or I play them in mono.


----------



## Mojo ideas (Apr 1, 2018)

MacedonianHero said:


> Which is why I think the remastered Beatles stereo CDs are unlistenable unless I use my DAVE with crossfeed or I play them in mono.


Good case in point..... Rob told me he’ll be away from the thread said he was going to South America, Peru I believe he  said something about going to find peekachoo or something. I just hope that Marmalade’s family don’t find Rob a fair and similar replacement and take him hostage......


----------



## AndrewOld (Apr 1, 2018)

Mojo ideas said:


> No we could have changed this but Rob and myself still have cd collections many of which have Music  with instruments panned hard left or right this was a mistake of earlier recording engineers who were perhaps too enamered with “stereo” at the time.  just listen to kinda blue (ignore the mic distortion on the beginning of most tracks Miles was just too close!)   and you’ll see what I mean about some instruments being out of place in spacial terms. Then try the same track with Robs cross feed on one of the cross feed setting to suit your speakers  .... The music is so much better that way. One demo from Rob proved the case to me and I stopped arguing with him ...... aquiecing I let him win on this one point .... yes we still argue.... it’s okay ....it’s creative.



That’s utter nonsense. Your claim is absurd.  You made a mistake and you should just accept that. Recording engineers, most of whom were far more talented at making recordings than you, made recordings the way they made them, and that’s the way most people want to listen to them. If Trane was recorded hard left, I’ll listen to him like that thank you very much, not with a distorted crosstalk signal on the right hand channel. If your argument is that the crossfeed setting is worthwhile in speaker mode, why is there no visible indication that it is set in this mode? Why is there no ability to change it in this mode? If you believe a controlled crosstalk facility would benefit speaker listening, why don’t you engineer it correctly? The time constants and frequency dependant crosstalk that make sense for headphone listening, which should account for the delays and masking due to two transducers on your ears are completely different from those that might be necessary for  speakers that at a 60 degree angle to the listener, and which are already audible at both ears.

If I want “creative” effects then I can do them with DSP or whatever at source, and I can be in full control of them, with full knowledge that they are on. I wonder how many DAVEs out there are being listened to through speakers with gruesome crosstalk and distortion due to the inadvertent persistence of this headphone only mode? How many demos spoiled? Why haven’t you at least fixed the manual? How hard is that?

By the way, Kind of Blue was recorded to three track tape, famously running at the wrong speed such that most releases were off pitch. I still can’t believe that you are trying to justify a mistake as an attempt to improve Kind of Blue. Kind of BS imo.


----------



## TheAttorney

I agree it's a poor design - as result of leaving a mistake as is (and keeping quiet about it), instead of updating the design to correctly handle the newly discovered situation. And it's potentially irritating for users who frequently switch between headphones and loudspeakers, 

Enhancement request for a future firmware update:

The CF function should be visible at all times. 
DAVE remembers the last CF setting for each of the headphones and loudspeaker outputs, DAVE already does this for volume settings, so you've shown the concept is possible.


----------



## Mojo ideas (Apr 1, 2018)

AndrewOld said:


> That’s utter nonsense. Your claim is absurd.  You made a mistake and you should just accept that. Recording engineers, most of whom were far more talented at making recordings than you, made recordings the way they made them, and that’s the way most people want to listen to them. If Trane was recorded hard left, I’ll listen to him like that thank you very much, not with a distorted crosstalk signal on the right hand channel. If your argument is that the crossfeed setting is worthwhile in speaker mode, why is there no visible indication that it is set in this mode? Why is there no ability to change it in this mode? If you believe a controlled crosstalk facility would benefit speaker listening, why don’t you engineer it correctly? The time constants and frequency dependant crosstalk that make sense for headphone listening, which should account for the delays and masking due to two transducers on your ears are completely different from those that might be necessary for  speakers that at a 60 degree angle to the listener, and which are already audible at both ears.
> 
> If I want “creative” effects then I can do them with DSP or whatever at source, and I can be in full control of them, with full knowledge that they are on. I wonder how many DAVEs out there are being listened to through speakers with gruesome crosstalk and distortion due to the inadvertent persistence of this headphone only mode? How many demos spoiled? Why haven’t you at least fixed the manual? How hard is that?
> 
> By the way, Kind of Blue was recorded to three track tape, famously running at the wrong speed such that most releases were off pitch. I still can’t believe that you are trying to justify a mistake as an attempt to improve Kind of Blue. Kind of BS imo.


Andrew I’m not making any particular claim I just told you why Rob left it the way it was yes it was a mistake on Robs part however when he demonstrated why he’d like to leave it the way it was he justified his choice and I agreed. Wether you think it’s BS is neither here or there, I just advised you why it’s, the way it is. Also I never mentioned Pitch when writing about Kind Blue I mention  mic distortion at the beginning of certain tracks what you mentioned about pitch was completely irrelevant other than to justify your position with additional spurious info.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Apr 1, 2018)

Mojo ideas said:


> No we could have changed this but Rob and myself still have cd collections many of which have Music  with instruments panned hard left or right this was a mistake of earlier recording engineers who were perhaps too enamered with “stereo” at the time.  just listen to kinda blue (ignore the mic distortion on the beginning of most tracks Miles was just too close!)   and you’ll see what I mean about some instruments being out of place in spacial terms. Then try the same track with Robs cross feed on one of the cross feed setting to suit your speakers  .... The music is so much better that way. One demo from Rob proved the case to me and I stopped arguing with him ...... aquiecing I let him win on this one point .... yes we still argue.... it’s okay ....it’s creative.


How about making it a user selectable option? I switch between speakers and headphones a lot those poor recordings are only occasional! Are my ears correct Hugo2 does not behave this way? Would it be possible for you to modify it as above ie crossfeed behaves like volume when switched and crossfeed  always displays when selected????? Please!!!!!!

A more useful function might be a filter to warm up those old poor recordings like some of my old Elvis and Beatles recordings great music poor recording. I can make them more listenable on my Hugo2


----------



## AndrewOld

Mojo ideas said:


> Andrew I’m not making any particular claim I just told you why Rob left it the way it was yes it was a mistake on Robs part however when he demonstrated why he’d like to leave it the way it was he justified his choice and I agreed. Wether you think it’s BS is neither here or there, I just advised you why it’s, the way it is. Also I never mentioned Pitch when writing about Kind Blue I mention  mic distortion at the beginning of certain tracks what you mentioned about pitch was completely irrelevant other than to justify your position with additional spurious info.



John, you did indeed make a particular claim. You claimed that  listening to Kind of Blue through speakers with one of Robs crossfeed settings “The music is so much better that way”. I disagree with that. You attempted to justify leaving a mistake in your product by saying you left it in deliberately, because it improves the sound of Kind of Blue and is creative.   If that is the case, why is it not documented, and why is there no visibility of it on the display?  I mentioned “pitch” because there are many known issues with many releases of Kind of Blue, pitch being one of them. But of all the well-documented issues with KoB,  noone has ever claimed that it should be listened through loudspeakers with the same kind of crossfeed as you use for headphones.  That’s equivalent to saying you can improve a DAC by introducing massive crosstalk with a skewed frequency response. Kind of Blue has been mastered by many different people, in many different formats, with many different sound stages from mono through stereo to four channel. Leave it be. Read Ashley Kahn’s book for a great insight.  

The very least you could do is fix the manual.


----------



## doraymon

Although I agree with @AndrewOld that it should at least be mentioned in the manual to avoid confusion, I just want to say "chapeaux!" to John and Rob for being so active here.
It's really a honourable commitment they made!


----------



## HeeBroG

AndrewOld said:


> That’s utter nonsense. Your claim is absurd.  You made a mistake and you should just accept that. Recording engineers, most of whom were far more talented at making recordings than you, made recordings the way they made them, and that’s the way most people want to listen to them. If Trane was recorded hard left, I’ll listen to him like that thank you very much, not with a distorted crosstalk signal on the right hand channel. If your argument is that the crossfeed setting is worthwhile in speaker mode, why is there no visible indication that it is set in this mode? Why is there no ability to change it in this mode? If you believe a controlled crosstalk facility would benefit speaker listening, why don’t you engineer it correctly? The time constants and frequency dependant crosstalk that make sense for headphone listening, which should account for the delays and masking due to two transducers on your ears are completely different from those that might be necessary for  speakers that at a 60 degree angle to the listener, and which are already audible at both ears.
> 
> If I want “creative” effects then I can do them with DSP or whatever at source, and I can be in full control of them, with full knowledge that they are on. I wonder how many DAVEs out there are being listened to through speakers with gruesome crosstalk and distortion due to the inadvertent persistence of this headphone only mode? How many demos spoiled? Why haven’t you at least fixed the manual? How hard is that?
> 
> By the way, Kind of Blue was recorded to three track tape, famously running at the wrong speed such that most releases were off pitch. I still can’t believe that you are trying to justify a mistake as an attempt to improve Kind of Blue. Kind of BS imo.


----------



## Triode User

Mojo ideas said:


> Andrew I’m not making any particular claim I just told you why Rob left it the way it was yes it was a mistake on Robs part however when he demonstrated why he’d like to leave it the way it was he justified his choice and I agreed. Wether you think it’s BS is neither here or there, I just advised you why it’s, the way it is. Also I never mentioned Pitch when writing about Kind Blue I mention  mic distortion at the beginning of certain tracks what you mentioned about pitch was completely irrelevant other than to justify your position with additional spurious info.



John, I'm not getting into the back and forth on this one but I would say please update the Dave manual so that it explains that exiting Headphone Mode does not switch off Crossfeed despite the 'Crossfeed' disappearing from the display and that if one wishes to use speakers without crossfeed then it needs switching off before exiting Headphone Mode.

Then everyone would know exactly how to use Dave and this pointless discussion would not pop up every couple of months with someone asking if crossfeed is automatically cancelled when Headphone Mode is exited.

I say pointless discussion because I'm assuming there will not be a firmware update. You have explained how it came to be the way it is and as per usual if you ask 10 HifFi enthusiasts what they want you will get 12 different answers.


----------



## dmance

We've never seen a firmware update on chord product, right?
Even a fix for the crossfade would be a trivial few hours work for Rob...so why not do it?


----------



## rayl

dmance said:


> We've never seen a firmware update on chord product, right?
> Even a fix for the crossfade would be a trivial few hours work for Rob...so why not do it?


There is no mechanism to load an update.


----------



## miketlse

dmance said:


> We've never seen a firmware update on chord product, right?
> Even a fix for the crossfade would be a trivial few hours work for Rob...so why not do it?


The code in the chord dacs is Robs IPR, so downloads of firmware updates are not possible. The only way to perform updates would be for the dacs to be returned to chord, which would probably be deemed inconvenient, by many of those who are complaining.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Apr 1, 2018)

miketlse said:


> The code in the chord dacs is Robs IPR, so downloads of firmware updates are not possible. The only way to perform updates would be for the dacs to be returned to chord, which would probably be deemed inconvenient, by many of those who are complaining.


What’s their shipping address I’ll have mine in the mail tomorrow.
Please a sanitary fix to the function, display and add Hugo2’s filters! Let Dave evolve!!!!!!! Please please please!


----------



## AndrewOld

doraymon said:


> Although I agree with @AndrewOld that it should at least be mentioned in the manual to avoid confusion, I just want to say "chapeaux!" to John and Rob for being so active here.
> It's really a honourable commitment they made!



I agree certainly about Rob. His posts are way beyond the call of duty; open, honest, straightforward, his patience with answering queries from the far fringes of hi fi is saintly, the thoughtful, comprehensive answers that he gives are a model as to how to treat, keep and gain customers.


----------



## AndrewOld

miketlse said:


> The code in the chord dacs is Robs IPR, so downloads of firmware updates are not possible. The only way to perform updates would be for the dacs to be returned to chord, which would probably be deemed inconvenient, by many of those who are complaining.



Then fix the manual. Make it clear the risks you run when switching from headphones to speakers.


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## marcmccalmont (Apr 1, 2018)

Anyone who wants to see a firmware update to Dave addressing the crossfeed function and display of the crossfeed function when in use please LIKE  this post. Would you like to see filters like Hugo2? Are you willing to return your unit to Chord for the update? If so LIKE this post “this post is written in the most positive light” giving feedback in a positive manner to the manufacturer!!!!!!


----------



## rkt31

My question to rob, is there any sound clip available recorded by Davina yet ?


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> Anyone who wants to see a firmware update to Dave addressing the crossfeed function and display of the crossfeed function when in use please LIKE  this post. Would you like to see filters like Hugo2? Are you willing to return your unit to Chord for the update? If so LIKE this post



No, shall not be liking your post. 

Did you skip the lesson where they taught how to win friends and influence people?


----------



## Mython (Apr 1, 2018)

Since tensions are evidently running a little high, I'll retract my remark.


FWIW, I do agree that the manual could helpfully be updated, to minmise future confusion, at the very least.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Apr 1, 2018)

Triode User said:


> No, shall not be liking your post.
> 
> Did you skip the lesson where they taught how to win friends and influence people?


Don’t you think Chord would like to know what owners would like. This post is made in a positive sense don’t read negative into it.  You seem to take my posts out of context  and turn it around in a derogatory way. I guess you just don’t like me because I disagree with some of your statements or you get your kicks by bullying people on the internet? Marc. Happy Easter!


----------



## marcmccalmont (Apr 1, 2018)

Triode User said:


> No, shall not be liking your post.
> 
> Did you skip the lesson where they taught how to win friends and influence people?


So you don’t want to see an update improving this product? You have in previous posts stated you don’t have or are not interested in headphone listening so this subject doesn’t effect you so why are you getting involved?


----------



## Triode User (Apr 1, 2018)

marcmccalmont said:


> Don’t you think Chord would like to know what owners would like. This post is made in a positive sense don’t read negative into it.  You seem to take my posts out of context  and turn it around into a derogatory way. I guess you just don’t like me because I disagree with some of your statements or you get your kicks by bullying people on the internet? Marc. Happy Easter!


Rob Watts has stated very clearly and several times that Dave will not get any firmware updates and that the next revision to Dave, possibly in years, would be a new model.

Against that background and if you got your way for your requests then any upgrade would inevitably being a return to Chord matter for a significant upgrade and a £1000 minimum price pops into my mind. Count me out of that.

There's nothing personal here, I'm a pretty happy go lucky chap really and am happy to reciprocate the seasons greetings and wish you a happy Easter. Nick

PS, I do think it would be a good idea if the Dave User Manual is revised regarding the Crossfeed and Headphone Mode thing and I would be pretty sure John Watts will take that onboard.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Apr 1, 2018)

marcmccalmont said:


> So you don’t want to see an update improving this product?





Triode User said:


> Also, Rob Watts has stated very clearly and several times that Dave will not get any firmware updates and that the next revision to Dave, possibly in years, would be a new model.
> 
> Against that background and if you got your way for your requests then any upgrade would inevitably being a return to Chord matter for a significant upgrade and a £1000 minimum price pops into my mind. Count me out of that.
> 
> ...


i am not up on the history of Dave or Chord so I plead ignorance on that but how can you read negative into my post? I don’t get it? Now when I come home from work late at night and listen to headphones so as not to disturb neighbors now I have to remember to go into a menu to remove crossfeed before returning to speakers the next day? If I bought a 4 wheel drive vehicle I would expect it to go into 4 wheel drive and illuminate 4x4 when I put the lever in 4 wheel drive. I would also expect it to return to 2 wheel drive and the 4x4 indicator to extinguish when I put the lever in 2 wheel drive. I would not expect to be chastised for posting this on a 4 wheel drive forum! This is a $10k piece of kit not $250 I’ll state it again I would like to see a revision fixing this issue. Not an upgrade a fix and I’m willing to ship Dave back to Chord for the fix. This is not anything negative about Dave or Chord or John or Rob I love them all but please fix the problem it affects how I use the product almost every day!


----------



## jlbrach

MacedonianHero said:


> Which is why I think the remastered Beatles stereo CDs are unlistenable unless I use my DAVE with crossfeed or I play them in mono.



I listen to the early Beatles in Mono only .....


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## TheAttorney (Apr 2, 2018)

I voted yes, as I could see how that could be very irritating for anyone who regularly switches between headphones and loudspeakers. I currently only listen to headphones, so in practice I'd wait for other design fixes (I use the term deliberately) before going to the expense of returning my unit for a firmware update.

The main other usability fix would be to remove that irritating 8 second timout on function select. The number of times now where I've paused slightly too long on deciding whether a particular album was positive or negative phase,  or what CF setting to use - and suddenly the sound goes blank becuase the input has changed instead the function I'm changing. I then have to press several times to get back to where I was. Yes it's a first world kind of problem, but that doesn't stop it being irritating.

From memory, Rob didn't say that he would never do a DAVE firmware update. He said he would only do an update if there was a very strong reason, and that he didn't expect that to happen because he takes the time at the beginning to get things right first time. Something like that. Well, the above are two examples of not getting it right first time - from a usability point of view. We understand how these things have happened, What gets irritating is that the Chord team doesn't seem to think such things are a big deal - that simply by explaining the history, or the design constraints at the time, somehow lets them off the hook for ever fixing any issue.


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## iDesign (Apr 1, 2018)

I hope Chord explores the possibility of offering firmware updates when meaningful enhancements can be made rather than taking advantage of our consumerist culture and throw away mentality that is driven by the iPhone 3GS, 4, 4S... cycle. Offering updates reduces the secondhand market and will help Chord retain customers. Schiit has very clearly demonstrated this with the success of their $550 Yggdrasil Analog 2 upgrade. The DAVE reached a new audience for the first time largely because of its headphone capabilities and it arguably set a new benchmark for DACs in terms of both performance and cost within the hobbyist headphone community. I suspect those owners are far less likely to purchase a DAVE 2 or 3 and are far more likely to opt for a firmware upgrade as Rob Watts innovates his technologies.


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## Mython (Apr 1, 2018)

iDesign said:


> .... I suspect those owners are far less likely to purchase a DAVE 2 or 3 and are far more likely to opt for a firmware upgrade as Rob Watts innovates his technologies each year.





Hmmm... well... a few things to contemplate:

Rob has already made it clear that 'DAVE 2 or 3' are _not _planned for the reasonable forseeable future (especially since Blu2 already elevates DAVEs performance to unprecedented levels)

Without meaning to speak _for _him, I know that he writes code when he has a specific project goal (usually one quite ground-breaking, since that tends to be an interesting and exciting motivator), not because of any sense of obligation to appease the annual-update kind of mindset. DAVE is very much on the leading edge of the SOTA, at present, and is unlikely to be substantially eclipsed any time soon (especially at it's non-stratospheric price-point).

In light of the fact that Rob has also openly discussed that he is actively developing one or more digital amplification projects, and also a state-of-the-art ADC (AKA 'DAVINA'), it seems doubly unlikely that he will have the time to remove himself from those projects in order to dedicate valuable time to creating a DAVE 2.

Lastly, it's worth keeping in mind that Rob is an independent contractor working alongside Chord, but not under their juris diction. His code is his own intellectual property. The hardware is manufactured by Chord & their industrial subcontractor(s).


----------



## JaZZ

Of course it is necessary to fix the manual in terms of crossfeed, that's undisputed. And I agree the now solution isn't ideal for people who switch between headphones and speakers either way. On the other hand I really welcome the preserved crossfeed function through the line outputs – although I'm not affected myself –, since it can be disabled after all: Think of listening through electrostatic headphones (dependent on an external amp anyway), and those who believe to need an external amp for dynamic headphones, too.


----------



## miketlse

Mython said:


> Hmmm... well... a few things to contemplate:
> 
> Rob has already made it clear that 'DAVE 2 or 3' are _not _planned for the reasonable forseeable future.
> 
> ...


I agree with @Mython that we are unlikely to see an update to the DAVE code, for a few years yet.
A large part of my daily job is engineering communication, and I do wish that Chord would update the user manuals, to remove confusion. This is not a dig at Chord, and i realise that the physical version of the user guide may be printed in batches of X hundred, but I think it in the short-term it would be good practice to update the user guides on the Chord websites etc.


----------



## Mython

To lighten the tone, around here, for a moment, here's something beautiful (in more ways than one) to kick back and enjoy, this Sunday evening...

If any of you lucky DAVE owners have a flatscreen in your listening room, you can enjoy the _spectacular_ view, at the same time!


www.youtube.com/watch?v=53lhcN47_YY


----------



## Rob Watts

rkt31 said:


> My question to rob, is there any sound clip available recorded by Davina yet ?



Sadly no - I have been too busy on other projects. I am in Cusco, Peru today, ready to do the Machu Pichu 4 day trail, and when I get back from the family holiday, I will be actually coding for Davina, as other project pressures are diminishing. It will take some time before recordings are made...


----------



## miketlse

Rob Watts said:


> Sadly no - I have been too busy on other projects. I am in Cusco, Peru today, ready to do the Machu Pichu 4 day trail, and when I get back from the family holiday, I will be actually coding for Davina, as other project pressures are diminishing. It will take some time before recordings are made...


Enjoy your visit. I have long thought about how it would be good to visit Machu Pichu for nearly 20 years, but recognised that I needed to lose weight and get fitter, to allow my body to cope with the high altitude. Years of cycling give me hope.
In the meantime, it will be interesting to hear your feedback.


----------



## MacedonianHero

jlbrach said:


> I listen to the early Beatles in Mono only .....



Yep...me too. I only listen to them in stereo after The White Album. Thankfully the crossfeed on the DAVE makes everything from The White Album and before listenable. Sadly as stereo was just coming into vogue, they often created this "fake" hard pan left and right stereo to mimic a proper stereo recording.


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## doraymon (Apr 1, 2018)

Is it a dream to build and keep updated a matrix of the cables/accessories used with Dave, listing: user, power conditioner, power cable, digital interconnect, analogue interconnect?
It would be a good source of ideas for someone willing to upgrade their system.
I don't want to pester this thread so maybe it's a better idea to open a separate one only with this purpose? Maybe a poll?
Not sure this is something realistic or just a silly idea...


----------



## AndrewOld

JaZZ said:


> Of course it is necessary to fix the manual in terms of crossfeed, that's undisputed. And I agree the now solution isn't ideal for people who switch between headphones and speakers either way. On the other hand I really welcome the preserved crossfeed function through the line outputs – although I'm not affected myself –, since it can be disabled after all: Think of listening through electrostatic headphones (dependent on an external amp anyway), and those who believe to need an external amp for dynamic headphones, too.



Right enough, that’s a fair point about using electrostatic headphones or an external amp. But in which case why make it necessary to find a headphone jack, stick it in your DAVE, fiddle with crossfeed settings the effects of which you wouldn’t hear, remove the headphone jack and then have no visual indication of which mode you have set? Not smart imo.


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## musickid (Apr 3, 2018)

I'm hoping someone can help me understand a key point about dave's operation. Normally when you hear the expression garbage in garbage out it refers to bad quality recordings and the inability of a dac to do much with it. With dave however you often hear that it can even make a bad recording sound good. I understand of course there are limits to this. My two questions are 1) what are the top three or so negative qualities found in bit perfect streaming services such as roon/tidal lossless flac which make a recording sound bad. Finally what does or can dave do to compensate for this i.e. why do a lot of listeners say dave can even make a bad recording sound good? Many thanks to all MK. (I do understand that streaming services can be limited by the original master recording of an album and i also have a fairly good understanding of how chord dacs work. I'm really looking for a broader response here).


----------



## Rob Watts

musickid said:


> I'm hoping someone can help me understand a key point about dave's operation. Normally when you hear the expression garbage in garbage out it refers to bad quality recordings and the inability of a dac to do much with it. With dave however you often hear that it can even make a bad recording sound good. I understand of course there are limits to this. My two questions are 1) what are the top three or so negative qualities found in bit perfect streaming services such as roon/tidal lossless flac which make a recording sound bad. Finally what does or can dave do to compensate for this i.e. why do a lot of listeners say dave can even make a bad recording sound good? Many thanks to all MK. (I do understand that streaming services can be limited by the original master recording of an album and i also have a fairly good understanding of how chord dacs work. I'm really looking for a broader response here).



I first noticed this effect with the original Hugo; before Hugo, as I improved my designs, then things became more transparent - and a recordings' flaws were easier to hear - to the point where a lot of recordings were unlistenable. But all that changed with Hugo; I could play bad quality recordings, and still enjoy the music. And this progress has been maintained with Blu Dave for example. Actually with the addition of an M scaler, this is the aspect you will appreciate the most. Now clearly from a measurement POV, and from the POV of how accurately the original waveform is being reconstructed, a Blu Dave is very much more accurate than say a Mojo. And you can play a 1930's mono recording, and enjoy the music- even though you can hear huge levels of distortion and noise, and the EQ is all wrong.

So why is this the case? I puzzled about this for a long time,and my conclusions are that digital introduces profound distortions that the ear brain has not been programmed to deal with. So the brain is used to coping with noise; it's used to dealing with simple harmonic distortion (the ear is very non-linear as a transducer); it's used to dealing with different frequency responses (when you go into a bright room or a dull room your brain auto compensates). But it can't deal with the unnatural distortions that digital introduces; and my path has been to identify and reduce these problems in a very aggressive way, without making assumptions on the way.

So I think conventional digital just destroys the music, and that's why things have profoundly changed for the better; when you listen to a Blu Dave, then you are there, in touch with the original master recording.

A pro recording engineer put it to me rather well - your gear allows me to easily hear what is wrong with a recording; but I can also experience what is right about the music.

And getting the music right is all that really matters...


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## musickid (Apr 4, 2018)

Many thanks. Out of the darkness and into the light. The darkness being conventional digital the light being chord dacs and the way they deal with this. How close does H2 get you to the original master recording just to put this into some perspective. Or should one think 12 bit accuracy vs 16 bit and take that as a guide for the non technically educated amongst us. mk.


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## dmance (Apr 4, 2018)

Anyone have any tidbits about what Chord will announce at the Munich High End Show? (a month away now!).  I hear rumors of three new products ...and I strongly suspect the digital amp is one of them.


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## STR-1

I expect the 2Go module for Hugo 2 to be another.


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## ray-dude (Apr 4, 2018)

Rob Watts said:


> I first noticed this effect with the original Hugo; before Hugo, as I improved my designs, then things became more transparent - and a recordings' flaws were easier to hear - to the point where a lot of recordings were unlistenable. But all that changed with Hugo; I could play bad quality recordings, and still enjoy the music. And this progress has been maintained with Blu Dave for example. Actually with the addition of an M scaler, this is the aspect you will appreciate the most. Now clearly from a measurement POV, and from the POV of how accurately the original waveform is being reconstructed, a Blu Dave is very much more accurate than say a Mojo. And you can play a 1930's mono recording, and enjoy the music- even though you can hear huge levels of distortion and noise, and the EQ is all wrong.
> 
> So why is this the case? I puzzled about this for a long time,and my conclusions are that digital introduces profound distortions that the ear brain has not been programmed to deal with. So the brain is used to coping with noise; it's used to dealing with simple harmonic distortion (the ear is very non-linear as a transducer); it's used to dealing with different frequency responses (when you go into a bright room or a dull room your brain auto compensates). But it can't deal with the unnatural distortions that digital introduces; and my path has been to identify and reduce these problems in a very aggressive way, without making assumptions on the way.
> 
> ...



I have been reflecting on this quite a bit.  As I've gone  from Mojo to DAVE to BluDAVE (and now Hugo2), my expectations for what makes something "musical" has changed quite a bit. 

The analogy I use is that when I am walking by a coffee shop, I can tell if there is live music is being played inside, even with all the distortions of the music coming through the walls and glass, etc.  Another example, is when I was walking into the airport a couple months ago, my ears perked up because I was hearing live piano.  When I went in, I saw that another traveler was sitting at a piano and playing.  Even with all the traffic and airport noise, I could tell it was live music from outside the terminal, and I was attracted to it and wanted to listen.

As I've gone up the Chord stack, that same feeling/impact of something being "real" has become ever more present.  Even civilians in another room will pop their head around the corner and say things like "that sounds really good" or "that sounds like there is someone live in the room".  For my buddy John, when he setup his Hugo2 and Omega speakers, the neighbors the next day asked if he had had some musician friends over, and commented how nice things sounded. 

That has nothing to do with our normal measures of tonal balance and noise floor or sound stage or imaging clarity or being in the sweet spot.  I can guarantee it sounds like crap from a different room (by any normal audiophile measures), but it still sounds real, and even non-audiophiles perk up and notice real.  To Rob's point, our brains know how to deal with the natural distortion of real noises that are going through walls and barriers and overcome background noises, and to focus on the "real".

With DAVE and BluDAVE, I get that sense of real, even in bad recordings.  With great vintage recordings, it is a frickin' time machine, and I see John Coltrane standing in front of me.


----------



## minibox

I posted this in the blu mk2 thread but I wanted to post here as well. I’m going out on a limb to say that what the blu mk2 does is a game changer in digital audio. I only wish I didn’t have to spend as much to get my digital sources to sound as good as my analog.
“My goodness, I just hooked up my blu/dave for the first time this afternoon. I listen to a good bit of vinyl but this digital setup is the smoothest, most analog setup I’ve ever heard. Amazing. Going to be a long night. I wish I didn’t have to be functional tomorrow.”


----------



## rgs9200m

I used to get that uncanny sensation of live music years ago when I had Apogee Stage speakers.


----------



## jayz

@minibox those Magicos are looking great, bet they sound good as well? Considering the distance to rear wall, I imagine your listening position is quite further out in front of the speakers ?

>> I only wish I didn’t have to spend as much to get my digital sources to sound as good as my analog.

I know you describe the result as being "smooth" but just wanted to know with dave alone (without blu2), what other aspects of the sound did you find lacking (compared to your analog rig)? I am not a blu2 owner myself but have read extensively what others say about the mscaler, in this case just wanted to hear about your own experience.


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## minibox (Apr 5, 2018)

jayz said:


> @minibox those Magicos are looking great, bet they sound good as well? Considering the distance to rear wall, I imagine your listening position is quite further out in front of the speakers ?
> 
> >> I only wish I didn’t have to spend as much to get my digital sources to sound as good as my analog.
> 
> I know you describe the result as being "smooth" but just wanted to know with dave alone (without blu2), what other aspects of the sound did you find lacking (compared to your analog rig)? I am not a blu2 owner myself but have read extensively what others say about the mscaler, in this case just wanted to hear about your own experience.


They’re a transparent and revealing speaker. Very sensitive to upstream components. When I play a well recorded record, there’s layers of detail that’s not edgy or harsh and well defined in a specific space. It’s smooth, warm, has body and is lifelike. In the past, I couldn’t emotionally connect as well to digital music because it was cold and grainy. The Berkeley dac helped with this, because it has a characteristically warm, smooth sound but it lacked the detail and definition I was looking for. The Dave was even more of an improvement. Everything became more defined within the soundstage without losing any of the warmth. I was especially impressed by the increase in depth. The blu/dave simply magnified all of the great qualities of the Dave. It’s extremely lifelike and non fatiguing. It has the layers of detail of my analog rig and no cold digital hardness. I’m also enjoying playing cd’s again. I didn’t realize how much I missed the ritual of flipping through my cd book, changing a cd and sitting down to listen to the album.

My listening room is a bit oddly shaped with an alcove behind the listening position. After playing with various speaker placements I found that farther away from the front wall gave me more accurate bass and tamed a node in the front right corner.


----------



## Mython (Apr 5, 2018)

minibox said:


> The blu/dave simply magnified all of the great qualities of the Dave. It’s extremely lifelike and non fatiguing. It has the layers of detail of my analog rig and no cold digital hardness. I’m also enjoying playing cd’s again. I didn’t realize how much I missed the ritual of flipping through my cd book, changing a cd and sitting down to listen to the album.



Nice to see/hear a self-confessed vinyl fan, with a highly-revealing system, not just enjoying digital (substantially thanks to Rob's efforts), but enjoying humble *16/44.1*_!_


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## DMck2000 (Apr 6, 2018)

I have finally tried DAVE with my Focal Utopia at the nearest (about 4 hours away lol) audio store. I don't get to try out audio gear often, as I live far away from any audio stores that have audio geared toward headphone users. The experience was truly incredible. So much detail and everything just felt so organic and real and the dynamism of the Utopia really played well with the DAVE. I am definitely saving my pennies for this bad boy.


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## tunes (Apr 6, 2018)

DMck2000 said:


> I have finally tried DAVE with my Focal Utopia at the nearest (about 4 hours away lol) audio store. I don't get to try out audio gear often, as I live far away from any audio stores that have audio geared toward headphone users. The experience was truly incredible. So much detail and everything just felt so organic and real and the dynamism of the Utopia really played well with the DAVE. I am definitely saving my pennies for this bad boy.




Can anyone tell me if WIFI in the same room as DAVE is a problem?? 

At the moment my cable modem and apple AirPort Extreme are on one side of a 6 foot console unit and at the other end my Aurender N100 music server that connects directly to the apple AirPort Extreme to allow an iPad to control music selections over WiFi. DAVE will be next to the Aurender connected by USB on the other side of the console unit.  There is also a SONOS sound bar below a wall mounted LED Sony TV that has a SONOS router to allow control of the sound bar via an iPhone. All of this in a small entertainment room 12 x 14 feet.  Alnico floor standing speaker and two Subs flank the console unit on either side as well.  There is a lot of radio waves traveling through the room!!

So will all these WIFI SIGNALS in any way affect the noise floor of the DAVE??  If so what are my options??


----------



## rgs9200m

What Magico models are in the photo? Thanks.


----------



## theveterans

tunes said:


> Can anyone tell me if WIFI in the same room as DAVE is a problem??
> 
> At the moment my cable modem and apple AirPort Extreme are on one side of a 6 foot console unit and at the other end my Aurender N100 music server that connects directly to the apple AirPort Extreme to allow an iPad to control music selections over WiFi. DAVE will be next to the Aurender connected by USB on the other side of the console unit.  There is also a SONOS sound bar below a wall mounted LED Sony TV that has a SONOS router to allow control of the sound bar via an iPhone. All of this in a small entertainment room 12 x 14 feet.  Alnico floor standing speaker and two Subs flank the console unit on either side as well.  There is a lot of radio waves traveling through the room!!
> 
> So will all these WIFI SIGNALS in any way affect the noise floor of the DAVE??  If so what are my options??



The aluminum casing and galvanic isolation should minimize WiFi and not affect DAVE's analog noise output


----------



## minibox

rgs9200m said:


> What Magico models are in the photo? Thanks.


S3


----------



## GryphonGuy

tunes said:


> Can anyone tell me if WIFI in the same room as DAVE is a problem??
> 
> At the moment my cable modem and apple AirPort Extreme are on one side of a 6 foot console unit and at the other end my Aurender N100 music server that connects directly to the apple AirPort Extreme to allow an iPad to control music selections over WiFi. DAVE will be next to the Aurender connected by USB on the other side of the console unit.  There is also a SONOS sound bar below a wall mounted LED Sony TV that has a SONOS router to allow control of the sound bar via an iPhone. All of this in a small entertainment room 12 x 14 feet.  Alnico floor standing speaker and two Subs flank the console unit on either side as well.  There is a lot of radio waves traveling through the room!!
> 
> So will all these WIFI SIGNALS in any way affect the noise floor of the DAVE??  If so what are my options??



I have my main wifi router approx 1.5 metres (~5 feet) laterally away from DAVE but approx 1 metre (~3 feet) above DAVE. I have turned the wifi router off to test this exact scenario and have been comforted by no discernable difference to the analogue sound generated by DAVE through its headphone output port.

regards
GG


----------



## tunes

GryphonGuy said:


> I have my main wifi router approx 1.5 metres (~5 feet) laterally away from DAVE but approx 1 metre (~3 feet) above DAVE. I have turned the wifi router off to test this exact scenario and have been comforted by no discernable difference to the analogue sound generated by DAVE through its headphone output port.
> 
> regards
> GG


That’s reassuring.  Thanks


----------



## ubs28 (Apr 8, 2018)

I don't believe in the Chord Blu MKII technology which is why I will never buy it. A SD card can hold much more content than a CD at much higher quality also. 

I will only consider a Chord Blu MK3 if it has SD playback (hopefully multiple slots so the Blu MK3 can hold let's say 2 TB of high-quality audio for example) and streaming technology.

And since SD playback supports higher than 16-bit, why not add more than 1 million taps to take advantage of 24-bit audio?


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 8, 2018)

Rob Watts said:


> I have finally gotten round to listen to the AQ jitterbug, as a quest to understand where the RF noise problems from the source was coming from - via the mains or the USB.
> 
> Firstly - very much - YMWV as RF noise is a funny thing and source noise may affect other parts of the system, so the findings here may well be different in other circumstances.
> 
> ...



Hi Rob

I'm guessing your laptop , when plugged into mains power, is not grounded?

Have you heard a small improvement using Dave's USB input by grounding your laptop's PSU? Of course it won't better running off batteries but does grounding the PSU improve SQ when connected to mains power?

Does grounding a laptop defeat the USB galvanic isolation of Dave, since Dave's PCB is also grounded?

Cheers


----------



## Rob Watts

Actually the MSI laptop PSU is grounded, and my office system has lots of things attached to the laptop, so there are lots of ground loops. A Dave with battery powered laptop with everything disconnected does sound better; but it's the kind of change you hear only by careful AB listening; in practice it's too small a difference to worry about.


----------



## doraymon

@Rob Watts: I'm still considering which ferrite chokes are best to be put on the USB cable connected to DAVE to reduce RF noise.
Have you got any clue which frequency range is the most important?
I understand it depends on the surrounding environment and I'm ready to experiment but a solid starting point would help me make an "educated first attempt".
Thanks.


----------



## miketlse

doraymon said:


> @Rob Watts: I'm still considering which ferrite chokes are best to be put on the USB cable connected to DAVE to reduce RF noise.
> Have you got any clue which frequency range is the most important?
> I understand it depends on the surrounding environment and I'm ready to experiment but a solid starting point would help me make an "educated first attempt".
> Thanks.


The Blu2 thread has some posts for this topic as well.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831343/page-190#post-14095563
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831343/page-190#post-14095640
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...-official-thread.831343/page-98#post-13705284
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-627#post-13881243
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-629#post-13889772
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-627#post-13882837


----------



## doraymon

miketlse said:


> The Blu2 thread has some posts for this topic as well.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831343/page-190#post-14095563
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831343/page-190#post-14095640
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...-official-thread.831343/page-98#post-13705284
> ...


Thanks a lot for this!
Some of the posts I had already found, some not.
So a good guess would be 300MHz to 1GHz.
On the same point I still haven't understood well if the ferrite cores would filter the RF noise coming from the computer's power supply or that coming from the surrounding electromagnetic fields (antenna effect on the USB cable)? Or both?
I assume both provided the cores offer high impedance at the given RF frequency.

Apologies if this has been already discussed before, I'm just trying to have a structured approach to the issue so to avoid spending a fortune in random guessing...


----------



## Jawed

Ferrites are always going to be random guessing. There are no measurements to back up any reports of what works best with DAVE.

You should always use the optical input on DAVE as the reference for your experiments with other inputs, or with USB spaghetti or adding ferrites to electrical cables. Add ferrites until you can't hear any difference between this electrical configuration and optical.

If you think your non-optical setup sounds better than optical, then there's something else wrong in your system, as optical is the way DAVE is supposed to sound.

I also recommend lots of ferrites on DAVE's mains cable.

Now playing: Wolf Alice - Song to the Siren


----------



## Rob Watts

doraymon said:


> @Rob Watts: I'm still considering which ferrite chokes are best to be put on the USB cable connected to DAVE to reduce RF noise.
> Have you got any clue which frequency range is the most important?
> I understand it depends on the surrounding environment and I'm ready to experiment but a solid starting point would help me make an "educated first attempt".
> Thanks.


My tests with ferrites on usb had no change at all... But of course that does not mean your situation would be the same. The situation with blu2 is very different, and not applicable to usb; the chip ferrites that I use on the hugo 2 were 300 MHz types, and this for sure with headphones eliminated the issue, as optical sounded the same as usb. So give 300MHz types a try, but do not be surprised if it makes no difference at all.


----------



## ray-dude

Rob Watts said:


> My tests with ferrites on usb had no change at all... But of course that does not mean your situation would be the same. The situation with blu2 is very different, and not applicable to usb; the chip ferrites that I use on the hugo 2 were 300 MHz types, and this for sure with headphones eliminated the issue, as optical sounded the same as usb. So give 300MHz types a try, but do not be surprised if it makes no difference at all.



As one of the people that posted about ferrites making a huge difference on USB (to say the least), I want to emphasize that when I was connecting USB directly to DAVE, I heard essentially no difference with ferrites (in my narrow experience, DAVE USB is the Chuck Norris of inputs...ferrites wrap themselves in USB cables when they see it).  

In my setup with my digital source and the cables I was experimenting with, I heard a huge difference when connecting to the USB input of the Blu2 (and then to DAVE) vs the CD of the Blu2, which cleaned up quite nicely with Topnisus ferrites (impedance curves unknown) on my USB cable.

All that being said, to Rob's point, noise is a system issue, which makes every system (and room and neighborhood and building) different.  However, these are very inexpensive experiments to try, and see if there is a difference in your particular corner of audiodom (post what you find!)


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## doraymon

Rob Watts said:


> My tests with ferrites on usb had no change at all... But of course that does not mean your situation would be the same. The situation with blu2 is very different, and not applicable to usb; the chip ferrites that I use on the hugo 2 were 300 MHz types, and this for sure with headphones eliminated the issue, as optical sounded the same as usb. So give 300MHz types a try, but do not be surprised if it makes no difference at all.


Great thanks.
I will see if I find a proper one from Würth.


----------



## doraymon

ray-dude said:


> All that being said, to Rob's point, noise is a system issue, which makes every system (and room and neighborhood and building) different. However, these are very inexpensive experiments to try, and see if there is a difference in your particular corner of audiodom (post what you find!)


Yeah well, inexpensive relatively to the DAVE...
Sure I will report back.


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## dcguy73 (Apr 9, 2018)

I heard the Chord DAVE, the Blu MK2, and the HE1000v2 together at a local meet this weekend...and I am forever ruined for it. The sound was incredible, unbelievably palpable and life-like, the best I've ever heard with the HE1000v2. My much more modest gear now sounds like a low-end Bose system. Now all I have to do is win the lottery and I'll be set.  It's a good thing I don't have kids, because they would no longer have a college fund at this point.


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## Whitigir

dcguy73 said:


> I heard the Chord DAVE, the Blu MK2, and the HE1000v2 together at a local meet this weekend...and I am forever ruined for it. The sound was incredible, unbelievably palpable and life-like, the best I've ever heard with the HE1000v2. My much more modest gear now sounds like a low-end Bose system. Now all I have to do is win the lottery and I'll be set.  It's a good thing I don't have kids, because they would no longer have a college fund at this point.



I would think Susvara + MSB Select DAC and MSB amp would be your answer  when you win the lottery


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## Thenewguy007

Rob Watts said:


> Actually the MSI laptop PSU is grounded, and my office system has lots of things attached to the laptop, so there are lots of ground loops. A Dave with battery powered laptop with everything disconnected does sound better; but it's the kind of change you hear only by careful AB listening; in practice it's too small a difference to worry about.



Wouldn't a good UPS with the Dave do the same thing for people on PCs?


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## ruthieandjohn

Chord DAVE newbie question...

How does one actually purchase a Chord DAVE in the US?  Online (to Chord Electronics)?  From “local” Chord distributor (nearest shon on Chord site is 200 miles away and only gives voice mail on answer during business hours).

What is the current price?

Thanks!


----------



## maxh22

ruthieandjohn said:


> Chord DAVE newbie question...
> 
> How does one actually purchase a Chord DAVE in the US?  Online (to Chord Electronics)?  From “local” Chord distributor (nearest shon on Chord site is 200 miles away and only gives voice mail on answer during business hours).
> 
> ...



You can try Audiogon, they can sell you one for under $8,400 new. There is also a seller on here who is selling a used one for around $7,500 .


----------



## spotforscott

I have an issue with my DAVE. I have reached out top Chord but no reply as yet. 

When streaming music, DAVE stops and starts every few seconds. So i hear music for a few seconds and then silence for a few seconds - this cycle keeps repeating. When it stops streaming music, the green lights at the top of the unit go red and then goes back to green when it starts playing again. I also hear a mild pop noise everytime it stops and starts. Has anyone ever experienced this with their DAVE?


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## ruthieandjohn (Apr 9, 2018)

maxh22 said:


> You can try Audiogon, they can sell you one for under $8,400 new. There is also a seller on here who is selling a used one for around $7,500 .


Thanks, @maxh22 !  I tried calling the closest authorized Chord Electronics dealer that was shown on the Chord website to have the Chord DAVE.   It was Kyomi Electronics in Chicago, and... no one was there to answer during business hours, just an answering machine.

I did not leave a message, figuring I would ask here instead.  I later got a call from a person who did not identify his organization, but the caller ID indicated the call came from Chicago, so I asked him if he were representing Kyomi.  He assured that he was, and that they did stock the Chord DAVE, and had one there now.

However, he refused to give me a price, either retail or discounted, immediately accusing me of just wanting a price from him to price shop elsewhere.

Having NO desire to do further business with him, I told him that I preferred to deal with businesses that were actually in business during business hours and were more forthcoming with their information.  I said that I would look elsewhere and terminated my call.  I will try Audiogon if my local dealer (not a Chord dealer) cannot get the DAVE, and if Audio Advisors, a Chord dealer with whom I’ve already had great experiences, but not shown as having the DAVE, cannot get it.

Sheesh!


----------



## rgs9200m

Thanks minibox. Dream speakers.  Heard Magicos at the NYC show years ago and can't forget the sound.


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## Thenewguy007

ruthieandjohn said:


> Thanks, @maxh22
> 
> However, he refused to give me a price, either retail or discounted, immediately accusing me of just wanting a price from him to price shop elsewhere.



I know he gets commission from the sale & only would give a price if he knew you would buy it, but he should have more manners for being a salesman of high end products. If they treat you like you are ordering a hamburger & fries, then you should look elsewhere.


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## miketlse

Thenewguy007 said:


> I know he gets commission from the sale & only would give a price if he knew you would buy it, but he should have more manners for being a salesman of high end products. If they treat you like you are ordering a hamburger & fries, then you should look elsewhere.


He does fit the salesman stereotype, of wanting to see if you drive an expensive car and dress expensively, before deciding whether to quote you an expensive price.


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## rgs9200m

http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649414032-chord-dave-dac/
From February, but looks like it's still active. A black one.


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## ruthieandjohn

rgs9200m said:


> http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649414032-chord-dave-dac/
> From February, but looks like it's still active. A black one.


Thanks...but I am actually trying for a new one.  At least I learned that MSRP is $13,000 from the usaudiomart listing.


----------



## rayl

ruthieandjohn said:


> Thanks...but I am actually trying for a new one.  At least I learned that MSRP is $13,000 from the usaudiomart listing.



MSRP is USD $12488 in the U.S. as of the early Jan price adjustment.

This can be seen in the Stereophile 2018 recommended components list, which was pretty recent.  (They update it with the current MSRPs with each edition of the list.)


----------



## jscmd2000

I have a question for someone with expertise on this thread...
I am able to play 24/192 flac files on my AK380 connected to Hugo 2 via toslink optical cables (AQ vodka and supernova 7) but the Dave will not. 
I am wondering if there is a logical reason for this or if I am doing something wrong or faulty equipment.  Thanks in advance!


----------



## audio_1 (Apr 10, 2018)

jscmd2000 said:


> I have a question for someone with expertise on this thread...
> I am able to play 24/192 flac files on my AK380 connected to Hugo 2 via toslink optical cables (AQ vodka and supernova 7) but the Dave will not.
> I am wondering if there is a logical reason for this or if I am doing something wrong or faulty equipment.  Thanks in advance!



Is the toslink optical cable plugged fully into the Dave? The Dave casework only allows small toslink connectors like the ones on the cable supplied with the Dave to fully engage. It the cable is easier to remove from the Dave compared to the Hugo 2 it has not fully inserted. The cable should click into place when fully inserted. It will work on 16/44.1 flac files but may not work on 24/192.


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## SuperBurrito

DMck2000 said:


> I have finally tried DAVE with my Focal Utopia at the nearest (about 4 hours away lol) audio store. I don't get to try out audio gear often, as I live far away from any audio stores that have audio geared toward headphone users. The experience was truly incredible. So much detail and everything just felt so organic and real and the dynamism of the Utopia really played well with the DAVE. I am definitely saving my pennies for this bad boy.



I've been using the Dave/Utopia setup for some time now and it is fantastic.  At some point I would like to check out if there are other headphones (like Abyss Phi) that would be more suited to rock/pop music though.

Did you check out the Chord dealer in SF?  I've had good luck with them...and it may be closer to your home than 4 hours?


----------



## jscmd2000

audio_1 said:


> Is the toslink optical cable plugged fully into the Dave? The Dave casework only allows small toslink connectors like the ones on the cable supplied with the Dave to fully engage. It the cable is easier to remove from the Dave compared to the Hugo 2 it has not fully inserted. The cable should click into place when fully inserted. It will work on 16/44.1 flac files but may not work on 24/192.



Like you said, the supplied toslink optical cable does play 24/192 files but with lots of static... and the display also flickers erratically.  Then I realized I was not inserting the other upgrade toslink cables fully into the Dave (thank  you!).  The AQ vodka and supernova 7 toslink cables do seems to play 24/192 files but with the same static and flickering of display.  It seems like the static and flickering are coming from bad connection at the Dave optical input slot since manipulation at that connection can improve or worsen the static/flickering... just not reliably.  I cannot play to the listenable level.

I remember reading in this thread that there is a known problem with the optical input design on the Dave... seems absurd that the Hugo 2 that costs only a fraction of the Dave doesn't have this problem but the Dave does.  Is there any remedy for fixing this problem?  Do you think this is something I should ask Chord for help on?  I only purchased it 4-5 months ago.


----------



## flyte3333

jscmd2000 said:


> Like you said, the supplied toslink optical cable does play 24/192 files but with lots of static... and the display also flickers erratically.  Then I realized I was not inserting the other upgrade toslink cables fully into the Dave (thank  you!).  The AQ vodka and supernova 7 toslink cables do seems to play 24/192 files but with the same static and flickering of display.  It seems like the static and flickering are coming from bad connection at the Dave optical input slot since manipulation at that connection can improve or worsen the static/flickering... just not reliably.  I cannot play to the listenable level.
> 
> I remember reading in this thread that there is a known problem with the optical input design on the Dave... seems absurd that the Hugo 2 that costs only a fraction of the Dave doesn't have this problem but the Dave does.  Is there any remedy for fixing this problem?  Do you think this is something I should ask Chord for help on?  I only purchased it 4-5 months ago.



I posted the exact same thing a couple weeks ago, on the Hugo2 thread, about my new Dave.

My entire TOSlink chain plays 24/192kHz perfectly with Hugo2 and I had the same screen flickering and static sound with a new Dave, using the same TOSlink chain (same source, same glass fiber cable).

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831345/page-784#post-14123254


----------



## jscmd2000

Em2016 said:


> I posted the exact same thing a couple weeks ago, on the Hugo2 thread, about my new Dave.
> 
> My entire TOSlink chain plays 24/192kHz perfectly with Hugo2 and I had the same screen flickering and static sound with a new Dave, using the same TOSlink chain (same source, same glass fiber cable).
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831345/page-784#post-14123254



Wow, thanks for sharing!  Have you gotten any response back from Chord?


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## flyte3333

jscmd2000 said:


> Wow, thanks for sharing!  Have you gotten any response back from Chord?



Still in progress.


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## jscmd2000

Em2016 said:


> Still in progress.



That was more than 2 weeks ago... still no response or are they working on a solution?


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## flyte3333 (Apr 10, 2018)

jscmd2000 said:


> That was more than 2 weeks ago... still no response or are they working on a solution?



As things are still progress it's not fair for me to go into the details while things are still in progress at the moment.


----------



## audio_1

jscmd2000 said:


> Like you said, the supplied toslink optical cable does play 24/192 files but with lots of static... and the display also flickers erratically.  Then I realized I was not inserting the other upgrade toslink cables fully into the Dave (thank  you!).  The AQ vodka and supernova 7 toslink cables do seems to play 24/192 files but with the same static and flickering of display.  It seems like the static and flickering are coming from bad connection at the Dave optical input slot since manipulation at that connection can improve or worsen the static/flickering... just not reliably.  I cannot play to the listenable level.
> 
> I remember reading in this thread that there is a known problem with the optical input design on the Dave... seems absurd that the Hugo 2 that costs only a fraction of the Dave doesn't have this problem but the Dave does.  Is there any remedy for fixing this problem?  Do you think this is something I should ask Chord for help on?  I only purchased it 4-5 months ago.



The easiest solution is to get a toslink cable with a small connector, like the one supplied with the Dave. If the cable supplied with Dave is not long enough, I would ask Chord who manufactured it and is it guaranteed to 24/192. It is then just a matter of getting a longer cable from the same manufacturer.


----------



## Jawed

DAVE has two optical inputs. Presumably you guys having problems have tried both inputs?


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## jscmd2000

Yes, both inputs with identical problem.


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## flyte3333

Jawed said:


> DAVE has two optical inputs. Presumably you guys having problems have tried both inputs?



Yes both for me too.


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## Jawed

I borrowed a friend's Hugo 2 to see if my cheap 2m optical cable (which won't work with more than 96KHz audio) works better in Hugo 2. It was ever so slightly better: 

on DAVE with 192KHz sample rate music playing, there's about a second of clicks followed by silence

on DAVE with no music playing and 192KHz sample rate as the last attempted playback there's a fury of static (display rapidly flickering through various data rates and "no input"), which changed as I manipulated the cable. Unplugging the cable and then re-plugging it, stopped the fury of static.
on Hugo 2 there were no clicks or static, just silence. Music never played with the sample rate set to 192KHz.
It seems to me that DAVE is slightly less well behaved with a poor quality optical connection than Hugo 2: it attempts to lock, fails, and produces clicks and static for as long as it attempts to lock on.

I was wondering if Hugo 2 would play 192KHz music from this bad cable, showing significantly more tolerance, but no.

I don't have my Mojo at home to try as another data point.

Now playing: Haux - All We've Known


----------



## flyte3333

Jawed said:


> I borrowed a friend's Hugo 2 to see if my cheap 2m optical cable (which won't work with more than 96KHz audio) works better in Hugo 2. It was ever so slightly better:
> 
> on DAVE with 192KHz sample rate music playing, there's about a second of clicks followed by silence
> 
> ...



With my 2 ft glass fiber TOSlink cable I never had a click or pop or static or silence with Mojo for >12 months and Hugo2 for >6 months at 192kHz. 

Flawless the whole time with Mojo and Hugo2 at 192kHz.


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## Jawed

Yes, the 1m optical cable that came with my DAVE is also perfect at 192KHz. Though I hardly use it since I've optimised my USB connection and used optical as a reference for sound quality only.


----------



## tunes

Is there a way to play the same FLAC file via different sources one using USB input and the other optical and compare AB rapidly to assess differences e.g. with ferrites and different USB cables????


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 12, 2018)

An update. I had no issue reporting the issue I was having but there is a reason I didn't want to complain too much about background disciussions. Obviously it's always best to let 'the process' play out behind the scenes before jumping the gun and kicking up a fuss publicly.

Initially I saw some correspondence from Chord to the dealer about how I have things wrong about TOSlink sounding best and that USB is the best because it's galvanically isolated and allows for higher sample rates... I didn't say anything but sorry no, I'm not changing my personal input preference of TOSlink (which I've enjoyed with Mojo for 12 months and Hugo2 for 6 months) for all the reasons that many of us have discussed here with Rob...

Anyway I was more interested in having them reproduce the issue at their end than getting advice on which input I should listen to....

After some time they said they had 24/192 working and I got a photo showing 192kHz working. Naturally the next question I had is what source was used because my source (and entire chain from software to source to TOSlink cable) worked flawless at 192kHz with Mojo and Hugo2. They mentioned a Bluesound Node 2 and Oppo player was used and with the STOCK plastic cable that comes with Dave.

I'm a pretty fair and reasonable guy so the fair thing for me to do is get the unit back and obviously try different sources, especially the same sources they tested. I wouldn't have any issues buying a Bluesound Node 2 (used) if that solved the issue - since they are RoonReady endpoints.

In the mean time I started to think about why the source may work with multiple DACs at 192kHz but fail with Dave. I know there's been mentions of the TOSlink input connectors being a little more fussy than Mojo and Hugo2 and some people have had to modify their TOSlink cable connectors to work with Dave at 192kHz. I had tried that with a Lifatec cable to no available, which doesn't rule out the fussiness but there's only so much hacking/mods I can do with TOSlink cables. More importantly, the dealer had the stock TOSlink cable that came with Dave working at 192kHz with those sources.

So I thought maybe it's also signal integrity (SI) thing. Maybe the SI of my USB to TOSlink converter isn't strong/good enough for Dave (it also perhaps ties in with the connector fitting issues, perhaps?). So maybe with a better/strong optical source (better SI), as the dealer tested, things would work better.

I remembered I had a Pi2Design/Rasberry Pi Roon endpoint that features a pair of low jitter NDK oscillators, *TX179 TOSLINK Transmitter* and all powered by an ultra low noise LT3042.

http://www.pi2design.com/502dac.html

I hadn't tested this with Dave before because it's been hidden in a drawer for a long while but this should be a high quality optical source with great signal integrity.

So before getting a used Node 2 I thought why not setup this Pi3 Roon endpoint and try and see if a better quality TOSlink source works better with Dave.

The answer is yes!

So while a Hugo2 and Mojo work fine with the USB to TOSlink converter that I had at 192kHz, Dave's TOSlink input being more fussy needed an even better optical source.

Now using this source I tested the other TOSlink cables I had, just for some more personal information/datapoints. The glass fiber Lifatec still doesn't work at 192kHz and I think this is related to the connector not going deep enough into Dave. RIP to my Lifatec cable with Dave sadly.

My Analysis Plus $50 plastic fiber Toslink cable works at 192kHz with Dave. It has big metal protective shells on the ends but they un-screw (threaded connector) so I just un-screwed enough to get it the inside connector clicking into Dave. It's working nicely. It's apparently 'medical grade plastic fiber' whatever that means. Most importantly, it's not too expensive and works flawlessly at 192Hz with Dave.

I'll get a SysConcept higher strand plastic fiber which is also well regarded, soon. They're reasonably priced and look slim and thin. You can order without a shell too, which is probably smart for use with Dave.

I don't really want to spend money on more expensive USB to TOSlink converters because they're still a risk of not working, unless someone has one that they can confirm works, even with Dave's stock plastic TOSlink cable?

So I'm using both of Dave's TOSlink inputs - #1 for my Pi3 Roon endpoint and #2 is my existing USB-to-TOSlink converter which is fine up to 96kHz (#2 is just for directing Mac audio output to Dave, for watching movies on Netflix etc).

I'll probably still get a used Node 2, since that has some other cool features that I could play with. I'll report back if that works but the dealer had it working so it should work.

It will be nice for us here, to share which Toslink sources work with Dave at 192Khz, that works with the stock plastic cable that comes with Dave.  There would be many combinations of sources that work with some cables and not other cables, but keeping the stock plastic TOSlink cable that Dave comes with is probably a good reference/control.

I can confirm the Pi2Design/PI3 unit works as Roon and UPnP endpoints (running Moode OS) and I'll test a (used) Bluesound Node 2 and confirm later.

I don't know if any of my technical reasoning above has any validity but I can say with absolutely certainty that just having a TOSlink source (and complete chain) that works at 192kHz with Mojo and Hugo2 (and 3 other DACs I tested) isn't a guarantee to work with Dave.

Anyway after some stress and worry with my brand new expensive purchase I'm loving Dave again and very happy with TOSlink performance 

Hope this helps others out there.


----------



## ray-dude (Apr 12, 2018)

tunes said:


> Is there a way to play the same FLAC file via different sources one using USB input and the other optical and compare AB rapidly to assess differences e.g. with ferrites and different USB cables????



Yes. When I was doing my massive mojo vs Hugo2 vs Dave comparisons, I used Roon and set up a zone for different usb outputs to each device. I then could quickly swap headphones between them (remembering to set the volume the same on all)

If you’re testing multiple inputs you can do the same if your source supports it. For example, my older Mac laptops had optical out and multiple usb out. You could quickly switch between these as the same song is playing

A quick note: if you’re testing something that isolates noise, you need to make sure you do t have multiple things plugged in. That is, if you’re testing optical, don’t have usb plugged in as same time. Any noise from usb will still be there, even if you’re listening to optical input.


----------



## Rob Watts

Em2016 said:


> An update. I had no issue reporting the issue I was having but there is a reason I didn't want to complain too much about background disciussions. Obviously it's always best to let 'the process' play out behind the scenes before jumping the gun and kicking up a fuss publicly.
> 
> Initially I saw some correspondence from Chord to the dealer about how I have things wrong about TOSlink sounding best and that USB is the best because it's galvanically isolated and allows for higher sample rates... I didn't say anything but sorry no, I'm not changing my personal input preference of TOSlink (which I've enjoyed with Mojo for 12 months and Hugo2 for 6 months) for all the reasons that many of us have discussed here with Rob...
> 
> ...



The TX 179 from Toshiba were very good TX, and the matching RX were also v good - you could throw any cable on it, and it would work at 192k.

Unfortunately, around 3 or 4 years ago, Toshiba stopped making Toslink... The replacements RX and TX although rated at the same bit rate are not as good; this is the reason why most DAC companies (AP as well) has withdrawn support for 192k, as conventional SPDIF RX can't cope with the fact that the new parts have asymmetric rise and fall edges. My SPDIF rx, built into the FPGA, means that I can allow for this, as it auto compensates for this.

So we can get 192k to work, but everything has to be in good condition, particularly the optical TX, for which we have no control over.

Its a huge shame that Toshiba have stopped making these parts...


----------



## flyte3333

Rob Watts said:


> The TX 179 from Toshiba were very good TX, and the matching RX were also v good - you could throw any cable on it, and it would work at 192k.
> 
> Unfortunately, around 3 or 4 years ago, Toshiba stopped making Toslink... The replacements RX and TX although rated at the same bit rate are not as good; this is the reason why most DAC companies (AP as well) has withdrawn support for 192k, as conventional SPDIF RX can't cope with the fact that the new parts have asymmetric rise and fall edges. My SPDIF rx, built into the FPGA, means that I can allow for this, as it auto compensates for this.
> 
> ...



Cheers Rob and all is good now.

But what's the reason a few of us are reporting bit perfect 192kHz optical playback working fine with Mojo and Hugo2 but the exact same chain fails with Dave?

That's the only thing puzzling. 

What's with Dave's RX fussiness? Does Dave use a different RX to Mojo and Hugo2?


----------



## Rob Watts (Apr 12, 2018)

No its exactly the same code; and I haven't seen any problems myself (if it does not work with Dave it won't work with Hugo 2). Perhaps its simply because the path length to the FPGA is smaller with Hugo 2 than Dave... Because 192k is on the edge, v tiny differences can be tremendously different. But with a quality optical TX, good optical cables, it will work with Dave.

Edit - yes the OPT RX is the same manufacturer, same chip, but different outer packaging as Hugo 2 is shuttered.


----------



## jonstatt (Apr 12, 2018)

Rob Watts said:


> No its exactly the same code; and I haven't seen any problems myself (if it does not work with Dave it won't work with Hugo 2). Perhaps its simply because the path length to the FPGA is smaller with Hugo 2 than Dave... Because 192k is on the edge, v tiny differences can be tremendously different. But with a quality optical TX, good optical cables, it will work with Dave.
> 
> Edit - yes the OPT RX is the same manufacturer, same chip, but different outer packaging as Hugo 2 is shuttered.




Could you point to a good optical cable that works with Dave due to its recessed optical sockets? Wireworld Supernova 7 doesn't fit properly so maxes out at 96kHz. QED reference (glass) doesn't fit properly so maxes out at 96kHz. Van den Hull Optocoupler mk2 doesn't fit at all. Amazon basics cable fits but has too much wiggle and so 192 breaks up with microscopic movements of the cable. The bundled cable which is the cheapest can be positioned to work with a Node 2 at 192kHz as long as you don't breathe near it.....but with an Auralic Aries it just won't work at 192kHz at all. All the good cables work with an Aries and Hugo 2.


----------



## minibox

jonstatt said:


> Could you point to a good optical cable that works with Dave due to its recessed optical sockets? Wireworld Supernova 7 doesn't fit properly so maxes out at 96kHz. QED reference (glass) doesn't fit properly so maxes out at 96kHz. Van den Hull Optocoupler mk2 doesn't fit at all. Amazon basics cable fits but has too much wiggle and so 192 breaks up with microscopic movements of the cable. The bundled cable which is the cheapest can be positioned to work with a Node 2 at 192kHz as long as you don't breathe near it.....but with an Auralic Aries it just won't work at 192kHz at all. All the good cables work with an Aries and Hugo 2.


I've had no trouble with the transparent toslink. 
http://www.transparentcable.com/products/show_product.php?recID=70&catID=3&perfID=1&modCAT=1


----------



## flyte3333

Rob Watts said:


> No its exactly the same code; and I haven't seen any problems myself (if it does not work with Dave it won't work with Hugo 2). Perhaps its simply because the path length to the FPGA is smaller with Hugo 2 than Dave... Because 192k is on the edge, v tiny differences can be tremendously different. But with a quality optical TX, good optical cables, it will work with Dave.
> 
> Edit - yes the OPT RX is the same manufacturer, same chip, but different outer packaging as Hugo 2 is shuttered.



Cheers Rob. Thankfully I haven't had to resort hacking at an expensive Toslink cable's connector to get a cable further inside Dave, to get 192kHz working. 

Anyway after getting my Dave back today, I can't get the smile off my face.

This thing is dangerous. The temptation to play louder is high...


----------



## flyte3333

jonstatt said:


> Could you point to a good optical cable that works with Dave due to its recessed optical sockets? Wireworld Supernova 7 doesn't fit properly so maxes out at 96kHz. QED reference (glass) doesn't fit properly so maxes out at 96kHz. Van den Hull Optocoupler mk2 doesn't fit at all. Amazon basics cable fits but has too much wiggle and so 192 breaks up with microscopic movements of the cable. The bundled cable which is the cheapest can be positioned to work with a Node 2 at 192kHz as long as you don't breathe near it.....but with an Auralic Aries it just won't work at 192kHz at all. All the good cables work with an Aries and Hugo 2.



In my overly long post above, I mentioned my Analysis Plus 'medical grade plastic fiber' (whatever that means) is playing right now at 192kHz flawlessly with my 502DAC optical source (Roon endpoint).

The cables metal 'shells' can un-screw backwards, to allow the Toslink connectors to insert properly into Dave's RX.

I'll report back next week about how it performs with the used Bluesound Node 2 that's coming my way.


----------



## flyte3333

minibox said:


> I've had no trouble with the transparent toslink.
> http://www.transparentcable.com/products/show_product.php?recID=70&catID=3&perfID=1&modCAT=1



Which source? 

It would be nice for people that have Toslink cables working with Dave at 192kHz (working without hacking at the cable connector) to share their source also, since 'everything matters' seems to apply more to Dave than Hugo2 and Mojo.


----------



## doraymon

Kind of OT:
When I started clamping ferrite cores on the power cable of my 3YO son's CD player I understood something was wrong. 
To tame my RF shielding OCD I decided to approach the problem differently and instead of reading only good reasons why I want to buy an expensive cable I started looking for opposite opinions and try to prove them wrong.
That is when I stumbled into THIS. Enjoy the reading!


----------



## Triode User (Apr 12, 2018)

doraymon said:


> Kind of OT:
> When I started clamping ferrite cores on the power cable of my 3YO son's CD player I understood something was wrong.
> To tame my RF shielding OCD I decided to approach the problem differently and instead of reading only good reasons why I want to buy an expensive cable I started looking for opposite opinions and try to prove them wrong.
> That is when I stumbled into THIS. Enjoy the reading!



More than kind of OT but anyway . . . .

When anyone starts quoting science in a general way such as in that article, my first inclination is to check it out. The bit on shielded power cords caught my eye. I use 2.5mm2 shielded (with a ground) Belden cable so I wanted to check out the inductance claim. Using my calibrated LCR meter I can't find any measurement that backs up the claim that my home made shielded cables might have a high inductance compared to non shielded cables. And as per usual, if one finds a crack in accuracy or facts in one part of an article then the claims in other parts of the article tend to be viewed with suspicion. . . . . That's my 2p or 2c worth.

Now, back OT (on topic) as opposed to OT (off topic). . . . . .

By the way, I love the idea of ferrites on a sons CD player being an indicator of loss of a sense of reality.


----------



## minibox

Em2016 said:


> Which source?
> 
> It would be nice for people that have Toslink cables working with Dave at 192kHz (working without hacking at the cable connector) to share their source also, since 'everything matters' seems to apply more to Dave than Hugo2 and Mojo.


Oppo BDP-105d. I typically use my aurender>usb>blu mk2>dual BNC>Dave but I've experimented with the Oppo as well. Apologies for neglecting to mention the source.


----------



## maxh22 (Apr 12, 2018)

Em2016 said:


> Which source?
> 
> It would be nice for people that have Toslink cables working with Dave at 192kHz (working without hacking at the cable connector) to share their source also, since 'everything matters' seems to apply more to Dave than Hugo2 and Mojo.



Don't have Dave but just got a kabeldirekt optical cable and it plays up to 192khz no problem on Hugo TT which has the same toslink input as Dave.

The cable is easy to remove unlike the lifeatec which requires some heavy wiggling.


----------



## flyte3333

maxh22 said:


> Don't have Dave but just got a kabeldirekt optical cable and it plays up to 192khz no problem on Hugo TT which has the same toslink input as Dave.
> 
> The cable is easy to remove unlike the lifeatec which requires some heavy wiggling.



Thanks mate. Unfortunately “don’t have Dave but” can be a little problematic with this issue though... 

Toslink on Dave behaves a tad different to Mojo and Hugo2 and 3 other DACs I tested. Only at 192kHz and 176kHz. 

But with a realy good source Dave fine with 192kHz, even with the stock plastic cable.


----------



## flyte3333

minibox said:


> Oppo BDP-105d. I typically use my aurender>usb>blu mk2>dual BNC>Dave but I've experimented with the Oppo as well. Apologies for neglecting to mention the source.



No problem. Earlier in this thread there was a lot of chatter about cables but not enough mentions of the sources. My recent experience suggests the source is more critical with Dave than Hugo2 and Mojo, so everything matters just a little more.

So it can help if we all share sources that work, not only cables.

As I mentioned earlier my dealer said an Oppo tested fine at 192kHz, as well as a Bluesound Node 2 - both with the stock plastic Toslink cable. 

So it’s safe to assume these are quality sources (I’ll confirm the Node 2 myself next week).


----------



## SCBob

ray-dude said:


> Yes. When I was doing my massive mojo vs Hugo2 vs Dave comparisons, I used Roon and set up a zone for different usb outputs to each device. I then could quickly swap headphones between them (remembering to set the volume the same on all)
> 
> If you’re testing multiple inputs you can do the same if your source supports it. For example, my older Mac laptops had optical out and multiple usb out. You could quickly switch between these as the same song is playing
> 
> A quick note: if you’re testing something that isolates noise, you need to make sure you do t have multiple things plugged in. That is, if you’re testing optical, don’t have usb plugged in as same time. Any noise from usb will still be there, even if you’re listening to optical input.


Would you post a link to your Mojo vs Hugo2 vs DAVE comparison? Thanks.


----------



## maxh22

Em2016 said:


> Thanks mate. Unfortunately “don’t have Dave but” can be a little problematic with this issue though...
> 
> Toslink on Dave behaves a tad different to Mojo and Hugo2 and 3 other DACs I tested. Only at 192kHz and 176kHz.
> 
> But with a realy good source Dave fine with 192kHz, even with the stock plastic cable.



I hear you man, if you want to give it a try it's only $7 for six feet and a little less for three feet. Hugo,TT, and Dave seem to have exactly the same quirky toslink input so in terms of the kabeldirekt cable working, I woudln't bet against it.

What you could also do (easier if you have a prime account) is order several brands of toslink cables (AQ, etc, etc.) and just see how they play with Dave and how you like the sound. Then you could return the cables that don't sound good or Gel with Dave.


----------



## maxh22

Regarding the source, Rob recommends using an optical or USB source that runs off batteries. Out of curiosity I followed his advice and purchased an MSI laptop and now that is my main source. The SI is fantastic and out of all the sources I tried this has the richest, deepest, and widest sound. Some sources might come across as more detailed but the more I listen to those sources the more I tend to anayalze the sound, rather than listen to it.

I have no experience with the Node 2 but I do recall reading a post from over a year ago from @Beolab who was unhappy with the Node 2's toslink performance and decided it needed the W4S Remedy to sound good. But YMMV.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Em2016 said:


> An update. I had no issue reporting the issue I was having but there is a reason I didn't want to complain too much about background disciussions. Obviously it's always best to let 'the process' play out behind the scenes before jumping the gun and kicking up a fuss publicly.
> 
> Initially I saw some correspondence from Chord to the dealer about how I have things wrong about TOSlink sounding best and that USB is the best because it's galvanically isolated and allows for higher sample rates... I didn't say anything but sorry no, I'm not changing my personal input preference of TOSlink (which I've enjoyed with Mojo for 12 months and Hugo2 for 6 months) for all the reasons that many of us have discussed here with Rob...
> 
> ...


Do you have a recommendation for a usb to tos converter? I’d like to try connecting my Aurender N100h (usb only) to Hugo2’s optical input. Thanks


----------



## miketlse

Music Alchemist said:


> If you just want a bass boost, you can do that for free with a parametric equalizer. The easiest way is to literally boost the bass frequencies by the amount you want, but if you want the best sound quality along with that, you'd have to reduce other frequencies instead. Doing it yourself is the better way since you have much more control.
> 
> When I first read about Rob liking the NightHawk more than other headphones, I was surprised. It's a more impressive statement since it came from the person who _designed_ the DAVE. But come to think of it, I don't know what his impressions of ultra-high-end headphones like the Abyss and so on are.
> 
> ...


I see that the Nighthawks and Nightowls are currently on offer for €399 in france, is there a similar sale in the US as well.
At that price the Nighthawks are tempting.


----------



## ray-dude

miketlse said:


> I see that the Nighthawks and Nightowls are currently on offer for €399 in france, is there a similar sale in the US as well.
> At that price the Nighthawks are tempting.



The Nighthawks were actually the start of my priorities for headphones and speakers getting turned upside down.  There is a straight line from the Nighthawks to my Omega speakers, which is what ultimately broke the dam wide open and has caused me to basically replace everything in my reproduction chain.

I bought a used pair of Nighthawks to pair with my Mojo (in anticipation of my DAVE) for the reasons cited above, but I was shocked how tonally "opinionated" it was.  At the time, tonal balance and neutrality were the main things I looked for in transducers, followed by speed and dynamics.  I was listening to these things wondering "What the heck does Rob hear in these?  Does he really design and validate these miraculous DACs using these cans?"

I stuck with them, and learned to really listen for low distortion and transparency, and slowly over time, tonal balance has actually shifted to be among the least important part of a transducer for me.  Highest on the list now is ultra low distortion, speed, phase alignment/imaging, etc.  I've learned that my brain will adjust to tonal balance differences pretty quickly (over a period of days), but my brain will never adjust to these other things being missing or whacked.

Alas, that has made A/B testing of  headphones and speakers extremely challenging for me: the one things that is easiest for me to hear in A/B testing paradoxically is the thing that is easiest for my brain to adjust to over time, and the hardest things to hear are the things that really contribute to that sense of reality that I've come to cherish in music reproduction.  The flip side of this (for me) has been that an obsessive (and at times maddening) focus on distortion and speed and phase alignment/imaging and transparency during auditioning has resulted in incredibly emotionally connected music listening the other 99% of the time.

Net net: My advice is that if you go down the Nighthawks path, bring Beginner's Mind


----------



## elviscaprice

ray-dude said:


> The Nighthawks were actually the start of my priorities for headphones and speakers getting turned upside down.  There is a straight line from the Nighthawks to my Omega speakers, which is what ultimately broke the dam wide open and has caused me to basically replace everything in my reproduction chain.
> 
> I bought a used pair of Nighthawks to pair with my Mojo (in anticipation of my DAVE) for the reasons cited above, but I was shocked how tonally "opinionated" it was.  At the time, tonal balance and neutrality were the main things I looked for in transducers, followed by speed and dynamics.  I was listening to these things wondering "What the heck does Rob hear in these?  Does he really design and validate these miraculous DACs using these cans?"
> 
> ...



In relation to the Hugo 2 vs DAVE.  How would you characterize these two in comparison for distortion, *speed*, phase alignment/imaging.


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 12, 2018)

marcmccalmont said:


> Do you have a recommendation for a usb to tos converter? I’d like to try connecting my Aurender N100h (usb only) to Hugo2’s optical input. Thanks



Hi marc, yes I posted about one on the Hugo2 a few weeks ago:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831345/page-779#post-14117595

Not a single issue with that one at 192kHz and DSD64 (DoP) with my Hugo2, with my Lifatec glass fiber cable. It's obviously capable of 192kHz and DSD64 (DoP) otherwise Hugo2 would have had dropouts, silence, static etc etc but I had none of that, not once.

With the same cable and same converter, just changing Hugo2  for Dave, there were problems with Dave at both 176kHz and 192khz. I suspect that converter is part of the issue with my Dave troubles - the signal integrity was good enough for Hugo2 (and my Mojo and 3 other DACs) but seemingly not good enough with Dave's RX, as I mentioned in my long post above.

Is anyone using the Matrix Audio SPDIF 2 or Audiobyte Hydra Z converter, successfully with their Dave at 192kHz? Preferably with a TOSlink cable that doesn't need hacking at to work with Dave?

http://store.matrix-digi.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=65

http://audiobyte.net/products/hydra-z


----------



## flyte3333

maxh22 said:


> I hear you man, if you want to give it a try it's only $7 for six feet and a little less for three feet. Hugo,TT, and Dave seem to have exactly the same quirky toslink input so in terms of the kabeldirekt cable working, I woudln't bet against it.
> 
> What you could also do (easier if you have a prime account) is order several brands of toslink cables (AQ, etc, etc.) and just see how they play with Dave and how you like the sound. Then you could return the cables that don't sound good or Gel with Dave.



Hey maxh22. That's always the best advice, to try as many cables as you can, if the retailer has a fair returns and refunds policy. In my part of the world, these arrangements that are seen around the US (Amazon etc) aren't available here sadly.

I'm happy to have 192kHz working with my Analysis Plus plastic fiber cable, probably due to my TX179 source powered by the LT3042 ultra noise noise linear regalator... 

I do have the very high strand count Sys Concept plastic cable coming. It's not crazily prized and well regarded. As I mentioned in my overly long post above, they come with the option of having no shell, which is what I've ordered.

http://www.sysconcept.ca/product_info.php?products_id=364

I've also ordered the Kabel Direkt optical cable that Rob mentioned once. To my naked eye (from website photos only) it looks like the male metal plug looks a little 'longer' than the cables I've used, so maybe it gets in a couple of mm's deeper into Dave? It's cheap anyway, so I'll find out soon enough.

https://kabeldirekt-store.de/index....l-toslink-digital-audio-cable-pro-series.html

The more info we can share about sources and cables (cables that don't need to be hacked/modified) that work at 192kHz flawlessly with Dave, the better informed future buyers of Dave will be.


----------



## ray-dude

elviscaprice said:


> In relation to the Hugo 2 vs DAVE.  How would you characterize these two in comparison for distortion, *speed*, phase alignment/imaging.



I did detail out my impressions of Mojo vs Hugo2 vs DAVE (and later BluHugo2 vs BluDAVE) in the long reviews in my sig

At a high level, these are my new priorities for transducers (speakers and headphones), not necessarily for DACs.  Rob's DACs are so good at  highlighting these things, that finding transducers that can shine in these areas has been a top priority of mine for the last 5-6 months.  I'm approaching happy with optimizing for these factors with speaker transducers, but haven't started down that path with headphones yet (soon).

To your direct question, distortion is basically zero with these DACs, and I have no basis for hearing any differences between any of Rob's DACs.  

As the WTA filter tap count goes up and noise goes down, that amazing phase alignment/imaging goes through the roof for me, so DAVE > Hugo2 (by a good margin for me).  

That sense of speed is something I'm still trying to get my head around between the DAVE and Hugo2.  DAVE is definitely superior, but I don't have a handle how much of that is due to the DAVE PS vs the Hugo2 battery (ie, some sort of peak current capacity limit), and how much is due to the DAVE having more pulse element in its output stage (or something else with the output stage).  I haven't heard a HugoTT to compare to a Hugo, but reading other's experiences seems to indicate that the same electronics with a beefier power supply can make a material impact, so that has been my primary focus for my (soon to start) testing.

When comparing BluDAVE vs BluHugo2, the difference in speed was quite clear: both had the same WTA filter tap count (1M from the Blu), same crazy low distortion, so the difference was all in the power supplies and D to A and output stages.  I'm hoping to be able to compare a BluQutest vs BluHugo2 vs BluDAVE, since that would help disambiguate the benefit of direct power (DAVE + Qutest) vs battery power (Hugo2).

My hypothesis is that a beefier PS will be better able to drive the high current you need for the aggressive transients that hyper fast transducers can resolve, but I don't (yet) have anything to indicate whether that would make a difference one way or the other with DAVE.  Once I finish up my current wave of optimizing cables between my BluDAVE and Voxativ speakers, my next focus will be experimenting with power to see how that impact BluDAVE.


----------



## flyte3333

maxh22 said:


> Out of curiosity I followed his advice and purchased an MSI laptop and now that is my main source.



Nice. If any Chord DAC owners are looking for a new Windows machine and prefer optical, copying the DAC designer is always a safe bet.

For MacOS users like me there were models that officially support 192kHz out of their optical output:

https://support.apple.com/en-au/HT202730


----------



## elviscaprice (Apr 12, 2018)

ray-dude said:


> I did detail out my impressions of Mojo vs Hugo2 vs DAVE (and later BluHugo2 vs BluDAVE) in the long reviews in my sig
> 
> At a high level, these are my new priorities for transducers (speakers and headphones), not necessarily for DACs.  Rob's DACs are so good at  highlighting these things, that finding transducers that can shine in these areas has been a top priority of mine for the last 5-6 months.  I'm approaching happy with optimizing for these factors with speaker transducers, but haven't started down that path with headphones yet (soon).
> 
> ...



Very good, my impressions are similar.  Going from Hugo to 2Qute, I felt speed was a factor, which I suspect is the same in the case of Hugo 2 to Qutest.  I've not heard Blu yet, interesting, your observations makes sense, that the additional deeper resolution from Blu makes the power source ever more transparent in sound signature.


----------



## DMck2000

SuperBurrito said:


> I've been using the Dave/Utopia setup for some time now and it is fantastic.  At some point I would like to check out if there are other headphones (like Abyss Phi) that would be more suited to rock/pop music though.
> 
> Did you check out the Chord dealer in SF?  I've had good luck with them...and it may be closer to your home than 4 hours?


That is the one I went to lol. I was exaggerating a bit on how long it takes to get to SF, but sometimes it does really take that long, because of traffic and trying to navigate around the city is headache inducing at times haha. But it was worth it for DAVE. I also picked up some DVDs and BluRays at Amoeba so that was nice haha.


----------



## SuperBurrito

DMck2000 said:


> That is the one I went to lol. I was exaggerating a bit on how long it takes to get to SF, but sometimes it does really take that long, because of traffic and trying to navigate around the city is headache inducing at times haha. But it was worth it for DAVE. I also picked up some DVDs and BluRays at Amoeba so that was nice haha.



I hear you about the traffic!  But if you can find a good dealer and build a relationship it is worth it.  They can help with synergies and tailoring a system to your sound preferences, which is the most important aspect hi-fi, I think.  Plus give good advice on what's worthwhile to spend money on and what is not so important.  Blu II is probably #1 on my list right now.  I don't even want to listen to it yet because I know I'll place an order.  Enjoy!


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 17, 2018)

It's been discussed before of course but this was a reminder to myself about how jitter is a well and truely solved issue with Rob's DACs...

Comparing between Dave's optical input and a battery powered USB source (iPod Touch Roon Endpoint) - bit perfect playback for both of course.

I used a 2m Supra USB cable (90 ohm High Speed certified) to keep the iPod away from Dave and my headphones.

It's not a perfect apples to apples jitter-only comparison of course because at a guess, the USB interface may consume quite a bit more power (and generate a little more internal noise internally?) than the Toslink interface? And the DPLL may generate a little noise with Toslink?

But still, Toslink performs really well. If the sample rate limitations of PCM192kHz and DSD64 (DoP) aren't a problem for you, you really should try optical.

@Rob Watts  - please make sure the next M-Scaler includes at least one optical input !  Unless you can optically isolate the M-Scalers BNC outputs internally.... then I can truely let go of Toslink


----------



## Ike1985 (Apr 13, 2018)

Christer said:


> I haven't read the review.
> But yesterday I had my first three hours with the demo DAVE at AV ONE in Singapore via headphones direct,either my HD800 or HE1000.
> For about an hour before connecting DAVE  I was listening to HE1000 via either my own Hugo or Mojo and found both very good  indeed regarding size and cost . But after a couple of hours of listening to my hi res masterfiles  ranging from 24/48 to DXD pcm and both DSD 64 and DSD 128, via DAVE it was really  disappointing to go back to either of the two.
> Yes I said I was baffled at how good little Mojo sounded on the Mojo thread.
> ...



Get a smaller house.  DAVE will bring you more enjoyment than more square feet.

I love to hear impressions from anyone that has TOTL CIEMs like the A18t, Fourte, Zeus XR, VE8, UM Mason V3, SE 5 Way Ultimate, UE18+ etc and how they interacted with the Dave with regard to resolution, stage, layering, separation, all the basics.

Do they make audiophile usb-c to micro-b cables? I'm looking for a single cable to connect my S8+ to Hugo2, been using the cheap $7 amazon 1 piece cable, want to see if I can detect a sound quality improvement with a X < ~$200 cable.  Of course the phone is in airplane mode so there is no EMI/RF and I'm running UAPP in bitperfect mode.

I'm sorry fellas but I have to share this.  This is simply exceptional music, I don't know how to classify it.  I've seen others call it afrobeat/neo-psychedlia/funk/soul.  I'm a metal/synthwave guy as well so I typically avoid stuff like this.  It's VERY audiophile-ish, I will be purchasing the FLAC.  Very well recorded.

_
_
and here's one more 70's-ish sounding album that's along the same lines:



enjoy and happy Friday.


----------



## jonstatt

Em2016 said:


> I've also ordered the Kabel Direkt optical cable that Rob mentioned once. To my naked eye (from website photos only) it looks like the male metal plug looks a little 'longer' than the cables I've used, so maybe it gets in a couple of mm's deeper into Dave? It's cheap anyway, so I'll find out soon enough.
> 
> https://kabeldirekt-store.de/index....l-toslink-digital-audio-cable-pro-series.html
> 
> The more info we can share about sources and cables (cables that don't need to be hacked/modified) that work at 192kHz flawlessly with Dave, the better informed future buyers of Dave will be.



I can confirm the KabelDirekt works at 192kHz with an Aries!! Crazy....one of the cheapest and it works perfectly.


----------



## flyte3333

jonstatt said:


> I can confirm the KabelDirekt works at 192kHz with an Aries!! Crazy....one of the cheapest and it works perfectly.



Fantastic! Another combination of cable and source that’s confirmed to work at 192kHz with Dave, without hacking at the cable connector.

But your Aries output signal integrity must also be very good.

For sh!ts and giggles, did you try the stock optical cable that came with Dave, in between Aries and Dave? Was is ok at 192kHz also?

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## jonstatt

Em2016 said:


> Fantastic! Another combination of cable and source that’s confirmed to work at 192kHz with Dave, without hacking at the cable connector.
> 
> But your Aries output signal integrity must also be very good.
> 
> ...



I did try the stock cable and it didn’t work. The Aries end had too much movement with the connector and the 192kHz was flickering on and off the display. The Aries needs the more substantial connector to give a secure fit.


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 13, 2018)

jonstatt said:


> I did try the stock cable and it didn’t work. The Aries end had too much movement with the connector and the 192kHz was flickering on and off the display. The Aries needs the more substantial connector to give a secure fit.



More fantastic information. Sharing combinations of cable AND source that works with cables that don't need to be modified, will help a lot of people.

To be fair to Rob, he can't test every source on the planet during development. He just needs to prove that Dave does what it says on the tin with the supplied cable, so if it works with his MSI laptop's optical output at 192kHz, then it does what it says on the tin.

I don't want to flog a dead horse so it's the last time I'll mention it again - the only funny/strange thing about Dave's optical input here is that the same chain (source and cable) working with Mojo and Hugo2 at 192kHz flawlessly is not guaranteed to work with Dave. 

Anyway if more of us shared working combinations it means less new-user frustrations (if this thread is searched/read).

I've got a couple affordable cables coming next week and will test a Bluesound Node2 and a friend's better USB converter (better than I have anyway) and will share what does work at 192kHz.


----------



## DMck2000

SuperBurrito said:


> I hear you about the traffic!  But if you can find a good dealer and build a relationship it is worth it.  They can help with synergies and tailoring a system to your sound preferences, which is the most important aspect hi-fi, I think.  Plus give good advice on what's worthwhile to spend money on and what is not so important.  Blu II is probably #1 on my list right now.  I don't even want to listen to it yet because I know I'll place an order.  Enjoy!


Thanks lol. I am definitely looking into buying DAVE. The only problem is that it is really expensive new, so I'll probably get their demo model when I have the appropriate funds someday.


----------



## flyte3333

Em2016 said:


> It's been discussed before of course but this was a reminder to myself about how jitter is a well and truely solved issue with Rob's DACs...
> 
> I hear no difference between Dave's optical input and battery powered USB source (iPod Touch Roon Endpoint) - bit perfect playback for both of course.
> 
> ...



A self edit - a TOSlink input on a future M-Scaler won't block leakage currents between M-Scaler and Dave's PSU's. 

So internally optically isolated M-Scaler BNC outputs are top of my wish/dream list Rob !


----------



## Hifi Boy

Whatever it takes so that we don't have to buy a tonne of ferrites and uglify our cables with them.


----------



## Malcyg (Apr 14, 2018)

Ike1985 said:


> I love to hear impressions from anyone that has TOTL CIEMs like the A18t, Fourte, Zeus XR, VE8, UM Mason V3, SE 5 Way Ultimate, UE18+ etc and how they interacted with the Dave with regard to resolution, stage, layering, separation, all the basics.



I can’t comment on any of the models you have mentioned, but I do have JH Audio Layla which probably sit within that grouping. I had noticed some people claim that the Layla’s could compete with high end headphones and HD800’s were specifically being mentioned. I thought this was a slightly extravagant claim, so I decided to check it out. I tried Layla v HD800 through my MojoPoly (and AK380) and was surprised to find that I preferred Layla. I subsequently tried both through Hugo2 and it was quite a close call. I then tried both into my BluDave and the HD800 easily surpassed the Layla’s - it wasn’t even close, quite a big difference.

I would gather from that that both phones just suit their intended purpose with an appropriate source for that application. HD800, and especially my HE-1000 V2, scale dramatically with BluDave whereas the Layla’s simply don’t - in fact I found BluDave to highlight their deficiencies more than anything. I have found that BluDave can do this unfortunately because it is such a fantastic source. By contrast, the HD800 into Mojo or AK380 seem relatively flat and lifeless (compared to BluDave) whereas the Layla’s do very well. Hugo2 seems to cross the divide quite well with both HD800 and Layla sounding very good, but Layla is probably up at it’s peak with H2 whereas the HD800 is just starting to get going. For H2 and BluDave, the volume has to be set really way down low for Layla’s.

I’m quite happy about this because it suits how I use my phones which, depending upon circumstances, is:

Layla - MojoPoly, AK380, H2
HD800 - H2
HE-1000 V2 - BluDave

I don’t use them anymore since getting Layla, but results were similar with my SE846, although this may mean nothing depending upon which CIEM you use and impedance matching etc. If you only use IEM’s, then you’d be well advised to test them out with a Dave to see how well they match. I suspect that to do Dave justice, it may be a lot easier to achieve with headphones as opposed to IEM’s. Probably quite a bit cheaper as well. Layla’s are twice the price of HD800.


----------



## ray-dude

Malcyg said:


> I can’t comment on any of the models you have mentioned, but I do have JH Audio Layla which probably sit within that grouping. I had noticed some people claim that the Layla’s could compete with high end headphones and HD800’s were specifically being mentioned. I thought this was a slightly extravagant claim, so I decided to check it out. I tried Layla v HD800 through my MojoPoly (and AK380) and was surprised to find that I preferred Layla. I subsequently tried both through Hugo2 and it was quite a close call. I then tried both into my BluDave and the HD800 easily surpassed the Layla’s - it wasn’t even close, quite a big difference.
> 
> I would gather from that that both phones just suit their intended purpose with an appropriate source for that application. HD800, and especially my HE-1000 V2, scale dramatically with BluDave whereas the Layla’s simply don’t - in fact I found BluDave to highlight their deficiencies more than anything. I have found that BluDave can do this unfortunately because it is such a fantastic source. By contrast, the HD800 into Mojo or AK380 seem relatively flat and lifeless (compared to BluDave) whereas the Layla’s do very well. Hugo2 seems to cross the divide quite well with both HD800 and Layla sounding very good, but Layla is probably up at it’s peak with H2 whereas the HD800 is just starting to get going. For H2 and BluDave, the volume has to be set really way down low for Layla’s.
> 
> ...




My experience was similar when I did scaling tests for my various headphones/CIEMs against Mojo/Hugo2/DAVE

In my case, my Noble Katana CIEMs scaled very nicely from Mojo to Hugo2 to DAVE, but my Senn HD800's (SR modded) had a slight edge once I got to the DAVE.  The Katana's had good detail, but were slightly blurred when compared to the Senns.  I also found that they fell a little short of my MrSpeakers Closed Aeon Flows once I got up to the DAVE

Alas, all of my headphones/CIEMs seem to hit their scaling limits when I go to BluDAVE and BluHugo2.  Once I'm done with my current round of tweaking of speaker cables and power to BluDAVE, I hope to get a lot more serious about tracking down some HEKv2's and Abyss Phi's and LCD4's to put them through the paces with BluDAVE.  

BluDAVE is quite the merciless illuminator of truth.  Shockingly easy to hear the impact of nearly any piece of kit (as I'm learning for the 692nd time going through various speaker cables)

That being said, my Katana's are wonderful with my Hugo2 when I'm on the road or at the office.  On airplanes in particular, I love the 30dB+ isolation they provide.


----------



## yellowblue

The Audeze i4 scale fantastic with the DAVE. The only thing is that the midths are a bit too bright. Therefore I use them with the Audeze DSP plugin in Roon. Not as accurate as my Utopia, but more fun.


----------



## Tomas h

Finally I could afford a DAVE. My ears are happy, but a bit confused as I never heard anything like it.
 Listening using my hifiman he1000 is pure joy.

Listening using my final sound electrostatic speakers is really good to.
But I am not sure how to drive them.
Right now I’m trying out a chord mezzo 75 that seems to drives them well.
Any suggestions here what to try out?


----------



## GryphonGuy

DMck2000 said:


> Thanks lol. I am definitely looking into buying DAVE. The only problem is that it is really expensive new, so I'll probably get their demo model when I have the appropriate funds someday.



Save hard. Your sacrifices will be rewarded by the sound that DAVE produces!

Regards
GG


----------



## tunes

What is the length limit on the KabelDirekt Toslink for it to work. Would a 20 foot length cause any distortion or dropouts??  Can get one for $12 on eBay.


----------



## miketlse

tunes said:


> What is the length limit on the KabelDirekt Toslink for it to work. Would a 20 foot length cause any distortion or dropouts??  Can get one for $12 on eBay.


I use a 10m cable from my TV or bluray player, to my Mojo or Hugo2 without any problems.
Unfortunately I have no experience using it with a DAVE.


----------



## tunes (Apr 15, 2018)

My other questions (probably answered already, sorry)

1. making sure crossfeed is turned off on DAVE when switching from headphones to speakers.  How can I be sure it is off when listening to speakers.  If my speakers are always connected to the RCA out jacks on the DAVE can I just plug in my headphones and then turn off cross feed and unplug the headphones?  If so what is the big deal? 

2. What is phase (+) vs (-) and when is one or the other better?

3.  Why is there a -dB indicator for volume.   Is there a set starting volume that then adjusts from that mid volume level?  Confusing why it just doesn’t start at zero and go positive. 

4.  If switching between USB and Optical depending on source, is it ok to leave the Toslink cable connected all the time on the DAVE side and plug in the optical source when needed?

5.  Can the RCA out for speakers, and XLR out for left and right subs remain plugged in to the DAVE all the time and when head phones are used are both sets of rear outputs automatically switched off?  The reason I ask is that on the HUGO2, the RCA out and headphone out are active all the time simultaneously so when listening to headphones on the HUGO2, the speakers have to be disconnected. 

Thanks


----------



## penguin69

tunes said:


> My other questions (probably answered already, sorry)
> 
> 3.  Why is there a -dB indicator for volume.   Is there a set starting volume that then adjusts from that mid volume level?  Confusing why it just doesn’t start at zero and go positive.



0* db is the equivalent to your line out. The negative scale represents the logarithmic difference to your digital volume output selection and the fixed line out.


* actually your 'max volume' on the Dave's digital volume control is -3 db


----------



## penguin69

tunes said:


> 4.  If switching between USB and Optical depending on source, is it ok to leave the Toslink cable connected all the time on the DAVE side and plug in the optical source when needed?



I can't think of any way in which this would cause a problem.


----------



## jscmd2000

Ike1985 said:


> Get a smaller house.  DAVE will bring you more enjoyment than more square feet.
> 
> I love to hear impressions from anyone that has TOTL CIEMs like the A18t, Fourte, Zeus XR, VE8, UM Mason V3, SE 5 Way Ultimate, UE18+ etc and how they interacted with the Dave with regard to resolution, stage, layering, separation, all the basics.
> 
> ...




Hey mate, good to see you here!  Both A18s and Encores scale up very nicely with the Dave.  I do enjoy listening to these when I need isolation from noisy background, for instance when someone is drying hair or watching tv, etc.  It would be hard to find better sounding full sized cans than these at the similar price range.  Technology has caught up!  I don't know of any closed cans that sound better than these, although I am hoping the upcoming HD820 will be better than my last endeavor with the aeon flows and Z1Rs.  Similar to good pair of cans, the A18s and Encores both reveal especially the depth so much more and better than the H2.  When it is quiet, I do feel that cans like Utopia and Abyss Phi scale up even better than iems.


----------



## Deftone

tunes said:


> What is the length limit on the KabelDirekt Toslink for it to work. Would a 20 foot length cause any distortion or dropouts??  Can get one for $12 on eBay.



Using a 5 meter kabeldirekt Optical with no problems.


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 16, 2018)

Just an update on my recent posts.

I've had my Analysis Plus Toslink cable (not too expensive) working 100% reliably at 192kHz and DSD64 (DoP) with my Pi2Design 502 DAC optical source for days now.

Today a few things arrived. A Sys Concept 1300 plastic strand fiber cable and a KabelDirekt cable, both 1.0m. Also a used Peachtree Audio X1 USB to Toslink converter arrived.

This Peachtree converter is used by Lifatec themselves to test their glass fiber cables at 192kHz.... See link:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...ke-192khz/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-454297

Unfortunately my own Lifatec cabe (which I've had for 12months) fails with the Peachtree converter and Dave... No issues with Mojo but fails with Dave.

The Sys Concept 1300 strand cable fails at 192kHz even with my reliable Pi2Design source (TX179), so that cable is going back for a refund.

The KabelDirect works at 192kHz just as well as my Analysis Plus Toslink cable, with my Pi2Design source at 192kHz. With no hacking/mods required of the Toslink connector either.

So the Lifatec glass fiber and Sys Concept cables are of now of no use for me with Dave. These are two of the best regarded Toslink cables too, across forums at least, for a long while . And they work 100% fine with Mojo but not with Dave's fussiness.

And the Peachtree converter fails with all cables at 192kHz with Dave, even the Lifatec, even though Lifatec use that converter to test at 192kHz. This converter and cable is fine at 192kHz optical with Mojo.

If you're looking for a Roon/UPnP/DLNA networked Toslink 192kHz endpoint, this Pi2Design 502DAC is incredible value. And I can confirm it works at 192kHz with KabelDirect cable and the stock cable that came with Dave. You just need to be a little confident with ssh'ing into the Raspberry Pi3 to install Moode OS and Roon Bridge.

Unless someone can recommend that a Matrix Audio or Audiobyte USB-to-Toslink converter works at 192kHz with stock Toslink cable (with no modifications) I think I'm done with trying to get a USB converter to work with Dave. The converters I've tried so far are too fussy with Dave, compared with Mojo and Hugo2 working fine at 192kHz.

But I'm very happy with my Pi2Design and Analysis Plus and KabelDirekt parts all working at 192kHz flawlessly with Dave.


----------



## tunes

draytonklammer said:


> Maybe we should @ Rob and ask him if he still gives the edge to optical?


It seems like an inexpensive Toslink cable recommended by Rob works perfectly well with the DAVE. 

KabelDirekt (15 feet) Mini TOSLINK Optical Digital Audio Cable - PRO...
$9.99

SO why fuss with USB and EMI ferrites etc??  Take a relatively inexpensive battery driven portable DAC that has optical out and stores audio files on solid state memory cards and forget about any EMI distortion.


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 17, 2018)

tunes said:


> SO why fuss with USB and EMI ferrites etc??



With Toslink there can be some fuss with Dave, for high sample rates (176kHz and 192kHz), as per the last few of pages.

The KabelDirekt cable is great as long as you have a source that gives Dave's RX the signal integrity it needs for 192kHz.

I've only just got Dave (long time Mojo and Hugo2 user) and I've been learning about Dave's Toslink 192k fussiness (which has lead to people hacking at expensive cables) through trial and error.

I've really enjoyed Toslink with Hugo2 and Mojo. Now that I'm happy to have 192k working flawlessy with Dave, this weekend I will get to comparing against my pimped out microRendu (v1.4 upgrade) chain, i.e. battery powered microRendu and optically isolated ethernet with the FMC's also battery powered.

It will be interesting (for me) if Dave's significantly better transparency (compared with even Hugo2, to my ears) better reveals differences with Toslink or if they sound the same.

I'm only one data point of course. I'm no expert and I don't pretend to have Golden Ears hehe. I do like reading other people's observations though, especially in the context of their entire system chain. So I try to share my own observations also.

If I hear no difference I'll sell my microRendu, so my wallet is hoping to hear no difference !


----------



## jrfmd

Rob Watts said:


> No I don't think 384/24 is indistinguishable with 48/24 or  certainly not 44.1/16 - but my feeling is that the standard is much less important than the recording method, so in that sense M scaler is a great equalizer - although this was true with Dave too, certainly with the ability to enjoy older recordings. For example, Decca recordings from 1960 to pre dolby 1967 redbook recordings do things that modern 192/24 kHz recordings are incapable of doing - notably being able to record speed and impact of real instruments. Modern recordings are smooth and refined but seem incapable of reproducing timbre variations and raw impact like the classic 1960's recordings. So simple microphone and short signal paths with sound optimized custom built mixers and amps are more important than 44.1 or 192. That said, my older recosrdings benefit much more from M scaler - which is what one would expect.
> 
> Future recordings with Davina will allow us to evaluate exactly what the losses are in sample rate and reconstruction. With the tremendous change M scaler offers clearly the next question is how much further can we take this, and Davina will tell us exactly how close 1M taps to ideal actually is.
> 
> Rob


----------



## jrfmd (Apr 17, 2018)

slightly off topic but I find that playing a 16 bit /44.1 k cd file from with my macbook pro sending the dave a 32 bit/96 k signal via usb results in a noticeably better sound than when I send the dave a 16/44.1 signal from the same file(I guess from the up sampling being done in the macbooks midi setup). 

I don't notice any difference when i compare it to the same performance using a 24bit/96 k source file of the exact same performance from hdtracks.

1. I now play all my cd quality tracks sent at 96k/32 from the macbook pro via itunes to the dave. seems like a very good improvement just by using the audio midi setup program on the dave
2. I would like to know if anyone else has reported the same phenomenon or if you knew about it all the time or if you disagree 

thanks
Jeff


----------



## tunes

Em2016 said:


> With Toslink there can be some fuss with Dave, for high sample rates (176kHz and 192kHz), as per the last few of pages.
> 
> The KabelDirekt cable is great as long as you have a source that gives Dave's RX the signal integrity it needs for 192kHz.
> 
> ...


Please post your impressions when you have compared the two.


----------



## doraymon

RF noise will not have my Dave!
I'm preparing for war :
74271633 "STAR-GAP Snap Ferrite for RF applications" 
74271131 "STAR-TEC Snap Ferrite with safety key technology"
74271733 "STAR-FIX Snap Ferrite with flexible cable fixing"


----------



## Jiffi32

doraymon said:


> RF noise will not have my Dave!
> I'm preparing for war :
> 74271633 "STAR-GAP Snap Ferrite for RF applications"
> 74271131 "STAR-TEC Snap Ferrite with safety key technology"
> 74271733 "STAR-FIX Snap Ferrite with flexible cable fixing"



what store are the part no.s from?


----------



## doraymon

Jiffi32 said:


> what store are the part no.s from?


Würth Elektronik part no.s, but I purchased from Mouser Electronics.


----------



## astrostar59

jrfmd said:


> slightly off topic but I find that playing a 16 bit /44.1 k cd file from with my macbook pro sending the dave a 32 bit/96 k signal via usb results in a noticeably better sound than when I send the dave a 16/44.1 signal from the same file(I guess from the up sampling being done in the macbooks midi setup).
> 
> I don't notice any difference when i compare it to the same performance using a 24bit/96 k source file of the exact same performance from hdtracks.
> 
> ...



Interesting. You will find better quality still using HQ player inside Roon. iTunes is the bottom of the heap for sound quality output. Also the better player programs disable the system bits not required and further improve SQ.


----------



## miketlse

jrfmd said:


> slightly off topic but I find that playing a 16 bit /44.1 k cd file from with my macbook pro sending the dave a 32 bit/96 k signal via usb results in a noticeably better sound than when I send the dave a 16/44.1 signal from the same file(I guess from the up sampling being done in the macbooks midi setup).
> 
> I don't notice any difference when i compare it to the same performance using a 24bit/96 k source file of the exact same performance from hdtracks.
> 
> ...


It would be useful for you to define for everyone, what you mean by 'noticeably better' - for example, brighter, warmer, darker or whatever.
Rob Watts normal recommendation is to let the Chord dac do the upscaling, because it will do it to a far higher quality, than the software normally used on PCs.


----------



## hikaru12

rgs9200m said:


> Unexpectedly, after moving from the TT to DAVE (and fearing that DAVE would be more unforgiving in the highs or shriller with vocals or ruthlessly revealing or fatiguing with popular music), I find the DAVE to be  LESS peaky and more relaxing (and at the same time more detailed).
> The DAVE is the best of both worlds. It's a nice smooth ride with great impact, speed, and has a great exciting swing factor.
> 
> I sometimes resorted to EQ to tame notorious digital highs with the TT (and other DACS before this), but now I don't need any EQ at all.
> ...



Thanks for your impressions - I've been thinking of getting the Dave to pair with the Auteur which I think would take the great detail you're getting with the Eikon and pair it with the smoothness of the Atticus.


----------



## audio_1

jrfmd said:


> slightly off topic but I find that playing a 16 bit /44.1 k cd file from with my macbook pro sending the dave a 32 bit/96 k signal via usb results in a noticeably better sound than when I send the dave a 16/44.1 signal from the same file(I guess from the up sampling being done in the macbooks midi setup).
> 
> I don't notice any difference when i compare it to the same performance using a 24bit/96 k source file of the exact same performance from hdtracks.
> 
> ...



You should not up sample from 44.1 to 96 but to 88.2.
Rob Watts said in a post:
"Sample rate conversion (44.1 to 48) adds large amounts of THD and noise, and permanently damages transient timing accuracy. It's actually the reason why I buy the original 96k master and not the 44.1 version for modern classical recordings. I can't understand why they record at 96 (rather than 88.2) for music only releases..."


----------



## Triode User

audio_1 said:


> You should not up sample from 44.1 to 96 but to 88.2.
> Rob Watts said in a post:
> "Sample rate conversion (44.1 to 48) adds large amounts of THD and noise, and permanently damages transient timing accuracy. It's actually the reason why I buy the original 96k master and not the 44.1 version for modern classical recordings. I can't understand why they record at 96 (rather than 88.2) for music only releases..."



Isn’t it simply better not to upsample at all before Dave? (Honourable exception for Blu2 of course).


----------



## jrfmd

miketlse said:


> It would be useful for you to define for everyone, what you mean by 'noticeably better' - for example, brighter, warmer, darker or whatever.
> Rob Watts normal recommendation is to let the Chord dac do the upscaling, because it will do it to a far higher quality, than the software normally used on PCs.


I find the instruments keep their individual tones no matter how congested the music gets and the bass is better differentiated and there is better localization (lateral and front-to-back), more emotion but not warmer -- tonally similar but clearer


----------



## jrfmd

audio_1 said:


> You should not up sample from 44.1 to 96 but to 88.2.
> Rob Watts said in a post:
> "Sample rate conversion (44.1 to 48) adds large amounts of THD and noise, and permanently damages transient timing accuracy. It's actually the reason why I buy the original 96k master and not the 44.1 version for modern classical recordings. I can't understand why they record at 96 (rather than 88.2) for music only releases..."


I am trying the 88.2 and I believe you are right -- I expect I will have a better idea in a few weeks but for now: thanks for the hint
Jeff


----------



## Crgreen

Some audio engineers prefer recording at 88.2 for this reason. When MPS digitised their analogue masters, they did so at 88.2 to provide proper downsampling to 44.1 and CD releases. The 88.2 digital masters can now be downloaded, and sound very good.


----------



## SCBob

Crgreen said:


> Some audio engineers prefer recording at 88.2 for this reason. When MPS digitised their analogue masters, they did so at 88.2 to provide proper downsampling to 44.1 and CD releases. The 88.2 digital masters can now be downloaded, and sound very good.


I have a DAVE on order and currently use a Hugo2 with Utopia. I have been buying the 192/24 or 176/24 option on HDTrack.com when available. With DAVE will these have any advantage over 96 and 88.2? Any advantage over 44.1/16? I don't yet understand how the DAVE handles these different options and will I hear a difference in my headphones. Thanks.


----------



## doraymon

SCBob said:


> I have a DAVE on order


Same here, since over one month now...arr...
I'm full of ferries but no DAC!


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 18, 2018)

I had a few hours free last night for some naughty fun with my mate Dave.

I enjoyed the music very much the entire night, playing with different inputs, just in case anyone feels the need to remind me to 'just enjoy the music' hehe

Also these are just my impressions. I'm no expert and don't have Golden Ears sadly. And I've only just received Dave, so I'm trying to work out what's my favourite chain and then I'll eventually stopping fluffing around testing different things (that's the plan anyway hehe).

It's a pain in the bum setting up my super duper Frankenstein microRendu chain (battery powered microRendu and battery powered FMC's to optically isolate ethernet). So I tend to only set that up on the weekend, for only weekend listening.

But last night I did setup my microRendu v1.4 & Uptone LPS-1 with all of the John S tips and tricks to block most of the leakage currents coming into the microRendu (through the power supply AND the last Cisco switch before the Rendu). In summary these are tips and tricks, to shunt high impedance leakage to ground, while both the LPS-1 and ethernet port of the microRendu take care of most of the low impedance leakage. Most of the leakage is blocked according to John but not all but this is about as good as it gets, short of optically isolated and battery powered.

So I compared the mains powered microRendu vs Toslink vs battery powered iPhone Roon endpoint iso/asynchronous USB output - all bit perfect playback.

There's no question to me that the microRendu source is still slighter more 'detailed' sounding, even over the iPhone iso/asynchronous Roon endpoint USB output. I have no idea if it's the better USB signal integrity of the microRendu or the artificial brightness Rob mentions due to some leakage currents still being present. Both are iso/asynchronous USB sources so jitter is not a factor. This stuff is really complicated but my hunch is with Rob. But still to be fair to John he has said many times some leakage still gets through despite best efforts and that optical and battery are the only true ways to fully block leakage current loops. Both John and Rob have said leakage currents in cables (and associated RF pickup and radiation) may be a big reasons cables may sound different.

For longer duration listening, my brain favours the battery based USB source. It's not something I could pick by quick A/B'ing, but letting music play for extended time, the less fatiguing USB source was the battery based USB source. The 'more detailed' microRendu & LPS-1 seemed slighty more fatiguing after extended duration. I could listen to the battery based USB source for hours if I had the time without fatigue.

It will be interesting when I battery power both the microRendu and optical ethernet converters, completely blocking leakage through the microRendu and still have the superior signal integrity it claims to offer (and I believe). But still, that setup is a royal pain in the a$$ to setup and maintain (recharging batteries etc). So it will never be a permanent solution for me - only weekend critical listening.

I heard very little difference between the iPhone Roon endpoint and TOSlink...

So nothing conclusive but just some impressions from a long and all-round enjoyable listening last night.

By the way, this is all with Dave driving headphones directly. These leakage currents are supposed to only matter when Dave is connected to amps etc but I think blocking leakage currents getting into Dave can still help even with Dave driving headphones. Just don't ask me why!

The easiest way I can describe the differences (it's a difficult task as you all know) is with long term listening fatigue. The 'more detailed' sound is more fatiguing and makes me want to not listen long or makes me want to turn the volume down. With a Toslink and battery powered USB source, I want to listen longer and keep cranking the volume up !

I'm pretty sure TOSlink will remain my permanent setup because it sounds great and is non-fatiguing and low maintenance. And Sunday afternoon sessions will be my Frankenstein microRendu setup (if it's noticably better - I'll test on the weekend).

No ferrites were harmed during this experiment


----------



## audio_1

Triode User said:


> Isn’t it simply better not to upsample at all before Dave? (Honourable exception for Blu2 of course).


Yes definitely. That is why I have a Blu2!


----------



## jrfmd

Em2016 said:


> S tips





audio_1 said:


> Yes definitely. That is why I have a Blu2!


I apologize for asking such a basic question but what would a blu2 do for my system (96/24 or 44.1/16 bit perfect to dave then to shure 1500 or other earphones)
I really don't understand what it does if your not using cd's
thanks
jeff


----------



## miketlse

jrfmd said:


> I apologize for asking such a basic question but what would a blu2 do for my system (96/24 or 44.1/16 bit perfect to dave then to shure 1500 or other earphones)
> I really don't understand what it does if your not using cd's
> thanks
> jeff


There is a lot of explanation in the blu2 thread.


----------



## jrfmd

miketlse said:


> There is a lot of explanation in the blu2 thread.


if you could recommend a simple straightforward place to start, I'd appreciate it. 
tnx
Jeff


----------



## ray-dude

jrfmd said:


> if you could recommend a simple straightforward place to start, I'd appreciate it.
> tnx
> Jeff



Jeff, I did a pretty comprehensive review of the Blu2 and tried to explain what it was doing over and above what is already being done in DAVE and Hugo2.  See link below.  Please PM or post if you have questions and I'm happy to try and help.


----------



## music_man

Part of a $200K system in bedroom. Streaming 3mbps flac from foobar into microrendu with wyred4sound psu. the detail is unheard of for streaming. other dacs I have competing directstream qx-5 twenty. I like dave best. Go downstairs to the MSB select and it is better but I would hope so. I did not read this all but wondering if that many people have him or just discussing him. I know I am okay but it is still not cheap. I prefer a computer purpose built, fanless than like Aurender stuff because it can simply do much more sounds better and can have much more storage. besides streaming there are 26tb about 7tb used all wav files. it is a glorious time for this technology. think 10 years ago.

I think this is most peoples end game. getting the msb gives like 10% more. here is where diminishing returns kick in fast. if you are using headphones certainly get at least a $3K amp. Every single dac the headamp is just tacked on. into p750U, Utopia is great sound but mainly listen to loudspeakers. In this case Sonus Faber Extrema2. It is not just dave but I love the sound.


----------



## miketlse

ray-dude said:


> Jeff, I did a pretty comprehensive review of the Blu2 and tried to explain what it was doing over and above what is already being done in DAVE and Hugo2.  See link below.  Please PM or post if you have questions and I'm happy to try and help.


Thanks Ray,

I knew that I had seen a few descriptions of the scaling used for both CD and USB, but i have been struggling to find the posts for @jrfmd .


----------



## Jawed

Em2016 said:


> By the way, this is all with Dave driving headphones directly. These leakage currents are supposed to only matter when Dave is connected to amps etc


RF noise is a problem for me (solved with dozens of ferrites), due to my mains-powered PC as USB source and I only have headphones connected to DAVE.

I recommend ferrites on DAVE's mains cable as DAVE is definitely not immune to RF noise on the mains.

Now playing: Skott - Wolf


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 18, 2018)

Jawed said:


> I recommend ferrites on DAVE's mains cable as DAVE is definitely not immune to RF noise on the mains.



Agreed. Ferrites are a fantastic treatment but not the cure I found after experimenting a lot with Hugo2.

The ideal solution seems to be blocking these naughty leakage currents, but with a USB source that is PERMANENTLY mains powered, it’s easier said than done.

We just have to trust our ears. And for you the 40 ferrites does the job and for me Toslink does the same job (audibly). There’s no right or wrong. It just comes down to finding the best PRACTICAL solution for your own system. As an example , my Frankenstein microrendu chain (battery powered and battery powered optically isolated ethernet) - fully blocks leakage current but a pain in the a$$ to maintain, recharging batteries etc.

If you have a spare USD1200 there is a company that optically isolates high speed USB2.0 but it still needs 5Vdc external power...


----------



## marcmccalmont

Jawed said:


> RF noise is a problem for me (solved with dozens of ferrites), due to my mains-powered PC as USB source and I only have headphones connected to DAVE.
> 
> I recommend ferrites on DAVE's mains cable as DAVE is definitely not immune to RF noise on the mains.
> 
> Now playing: Skott - Wolf


I ended up with 18  topnisus ferrites on my power cord into Dave, smoother, sweeter and quieter


----------



## Jawed

Em2016 said:


> Agreed. Ferrites are a fantastic treatment but not the cure I found after experimenting a lot with Hugo2.
> 
> The ideal solution seems to be blocking these naughty leakage currents, but with a USB source that is PERMANENTLY mains powered, it’s easier said than done.
> 
> We just have to trust our ears. And for you the 40 ferrites does the job and for me Toslink does the same job (audibly). There’s no right or wrong.


I used optical to check that the filtering on USB works, so that I can't find a difference between them 



> It just comes down to finding the best PRACTICAL solution for your own system. As an example , my Frankenstein microrendu chain (battery powered and battery powered optically isolated ethernet) - fully blocks leakage current but a pain in the a$$ to maintain, recharging batteries etc.


There are reports that ferrites on the power cable plugged into LPS-1 make a difference to the sound.

Check to find out if you can hear a difference depending on whether you have power going into LPS-1 or not. Just pull the power cable out of the connection on LPS-1.



> If you have a spare USD1200 there is a company that optically isolates high speed USB2.0 and it needs only 5Vdc external power....


Lots of ferrites work. 

It's not the current that causes the problem, it's the fact that the current is the means for noise to travel through the cable and spoil DAVE's sound. If you filter the noise with the equivalent of thousands of ohms using lots of ferrites (4-5000 is a good target if you can find a specification for the ferrites), then the noise doesn't cause a problem inside DAVE, it's simply too weak. The current still flows, but there's not enough noise for the current to spoil the sound.

Now playing: JFDR - White Sun


----------



## flyte3333

Jawed said:


> There are reports that ferrites on the power cable plugged into LPS-1 make a difference to the sound.



When I say my Frankenstein microRendu is battery powered, I don’t mean Uptone LPS-1 powered (which tries to approximate a really low impedance output battery but some leakage currents still get through). I mean really battery powered 

Which power cable with the LPS-1? Do you mean the AC power cable or DC power cable?


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 18, 2018)

Jawed said:


> It's not the current that causes the problem, it's the fact that the current is the means for noise to travel through the cable and spoil DAVE's sound.



We are getting deep into the weeds of very complex stuff and unknowns but according to John S it’s both.

_“Yes, even with a headphone amp DAC you CAN have a leakage loops forming from the computer's and the DAC's power supplies. This can  affect the SQ of the DAC, it can affect the local clock in the DAC, the DAC chips and the analog stage of the DAC.”_

So it appears that things are more complex than just reducing the effects of leakage causing radiated RF in the USB cable. Ideally you still want to block these leakage currents getting inside the DAC. Ferrites very effectively help to filter RF outside the USB cable shield but the leakage can still get through inside the cable shield and affects things inside the DAC (per John S):

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...-and-grounding/?do=findComment&comment=799479

_“Another way leakage can get into systems is through a DAC, the leakage current can go through the ground plane of the DAC PCB, that current creates a small voltage which modulates the oscillators(s) producing the clocks in the DAC, adding jitter to those clocks. Even if the leakage doesn't get to a preamp or power amp it can add jitter to the clock in the DAC, thus subtly distorting audio output.”_

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...-and-grounding/?do=findComment&comment=735311


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 18, 2018)

Jawed said:


> I used optical to check that the filtering on USB works, so that I can't find a difference between them



Absolutely and this was my point earlier. Despite all the complexities involved, if we can't hear differences then just pick whatever is most convenient.

For me, I took Rob's advice that a battery powered USB source is best - no leakage currents (don't need any ferrites) and the DAC's master clock controlling things means no jitter (and no DPLL engaged of course).

So I compared Toslink with a battery powered USB source and heard no significant difference - both are fatigue-free listening and both tease me to turn up the volume louder and louder.

But my own Toslink chain is the most practical for a permanent solution (for me) - no recharging batteries etc. And there's the feel good factor of no leakage currents getting into the DAC.


----------



## elviscaprice (Apr 18, 2018)

I agree, getting a little too ferrite happy.  Okay, I get the BLU to DAVE, but other than this, my question would be what is wrong in my system design that I would need such a fix as ferrites, which obviously isn't the fix all.
For DAVE a new power chord with heavier gauge wire and coming from an isolation transformer would be a better solution, more encompassing.  USB cables eliminated for neutral adapter such as the USPCB.  Keep the system as short pathed and isolated as possible.  Every inch of extra chord and extra/oversized component create potential noise reintroduction and increased impedance.
I don't find batteries the solution either.  Not a fan of their influence on sound signature or as some here would say lack of influence.  Either way, I don't like them.


----------



## Jawed

Em2016 said:


> When I say my Frankenstein microRendu is battery powered, I don’t mean Uptone LPS-1 powered (which tries to approximate a really low impedance output battery but some leakage currents still get through). I mean really battery powered


Nice. Some people describe LPS-1 as a battery power supply, but it still has a connection to the mains which causes a problem 



> Which power cable with the LPS-1? Do you mean the AC power cable or DC power cable?


DC from what I remember.



Em2016 said:


> We are getting deep into the weeds of very complex stuff and unknowns but according to John S it’s both.


I think you might want to check with him. A current with no noise will have no effect.



> _“Yes, even with a headphone amp DAC you CAN have a leakage loops forming from the computer's and the DAC's power supplies. This can  affect the SQ of the DAC, it can affect the local clock in the DAC, the DAC chips and the analog stage of the DAC.”_



Also we're talking about DAVE and clocking/jitter simply isn't an issue. The RF that gets into DAVE is causing a problem in the analogue part of the DAC, the pulse array, due to noise in the ground plane.



> So it appear more than just the effects of leakage causing radiated RF in the USB cable.


Yes, all along we've been talking about common mode noise at the electrical sockets (USB, AES or BNC) that causes the problem. Not radiated RF.



> Ideally you still want to block these leakage currents getting inside the DAC.


They don't matter with DAVE as long as there's no RF noise in the current. Rob has already talked about how lower (audio) frequency noise is dealt with by DAVE so that only RF noise is a problem.



> Ferrites very effectively help to filter RF outside the USB cable shield but the leakage can still get through inside the cable shield and affects things inside the DAC (per John S):
> 
> https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...-and-grounding/?do=findComment&comment=799479
> 
> ...


I'm going to repeat myself: the current isn't a problem. It's the RF noise carried by the current that's the problem. Lots of ferrites filter this noise. The current, on its own, has no detrimental effect. Swenson has never tested 10s of ferrites as far as I can tell. He belongs to the "noise free clocks" school, which may well be relevant to other DACs (though the evidence points to simple noise modulation in analogue circuits, a side effect of RF noise in the ground plane). Jitter isn't relevant to Rob's pulse array.



> For me, I took Rob's advice that a battery powered USB source is best - no leakage currents (don't need any ferrites) and the DAC's master clock controlling things means no jitter (and no DPLL engaged of course).


Rob recommends optical. Battery powered USB is next best. The DPLL is irrelevant.

Now playing: Adrian Knight - What Light (Never Goes Dim)


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 18, 2018)

Jawed said:


> Rob recommends optical. Battery powered USB is next best. The DPLL is irrelevant.



https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-649#post-13970809

and

"While 100% of RF _is_ eliminated with optical, as Rob has indicated, because his SPDIF inputs have to go through a buffer and then a DPLL before it is synchronized to the FPGA clock, USB is DAVE's best input."

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-382#post-13007750

So combining the above, battery powered USB source should have a slight edge. Maybe. Again, no DPLL engaged since the master clock controls things and no leakage currents, therefore no RF worries.

*For anyone else reading this, this is just fun discussion. The music sounds phenomenal on all inputs *


----------



## Jawed

Nice! You upgraded to DAVE. I got the feeling you were going to stick to Hugo/Hugo 2.


elviscaprice said:


> I agree, getting a little too ferrite happy.


They work. The USPCB you're using perfectly transmits all the RF noise that your spaghetti generates and feeds it into DAVE, spoiling the sound. A USB cable with 20 ferrites will be better as it'll filter the noise made by your spaghetti.



> Okay, I get the BLU to DAVE, but other than this, my question would be what is wrong in my system design that I would need such a fix as ferrites, which obviously isn't the fix all.


Try an optical cable (and disconnect USB) into DAVE, if you have a source with optical output.


----------



## Jawed

Em2016 said:


> So combining the above, battery powered USB source should have a slight edge. Maybe. Again, no DPLL engaged since the master clock controls things and no leakage currents, therefore no RF worries.


No. I think you've forgotten this post:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-648#post-13969654



> Yes I vaguely recalled that - it does indeed sound slightly brighter and I put that down then to the benefit of USB in that it gets the clock from the FPGA. But I have changed my mind on this now, as Hugo 2 USB sounds the same as optical when using headphones (it's like Dave when driving a power amp). So actually that indicates that the timing issue is not actually a benefit, as the DPLL eliminates the source jitter.


DPLL is a red herring. There is no possible edge for USB versus optical.

In summary: Rob once thought USB had an edge (RF noise gave the impression of clearer detail), which lead to the "DPLL is inferior" theory. But he realised that RF noise had coloured his preference, invalidating the DPLL theory.

Now playing: Julien Baker - Distant Solar Systems


----------



## doraymon (Apr 18, 2018)

Jawed said:


> If you filter the noise with the equivalent of thousands of ohms using lots of ferrites (4-5000 is a good target if you can find a specification for the ferrites), then the noise doesn't cause a problem inside DAVE, it's simply too weak.


The problem is that ferries provide impedance which varies significantly with frequency so from what I understand getting 4-5k Ohms impedance on the frequency range say 100MHz - 1GHz would require tons of ferrite cores, the cable would bend under the weight of the clamps, the USB or power connector of the DAVE would be subject to extremely high bending stress and will eventually collapse in a catastrophic failure!

Now Jokes aside, the problem is that one never really know what is the frequency of the disturbing signal entering DAVE so it's like wearing an armour to block a sword and be hit by the needle between the junction of two plates.
You can't just be prepared for everything.
You need either an EMI lab or a lot, lot of experimentation!


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 18, 2018)

Jawed said:


> No. I think you've forgotten this post:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-648#post-13969654
> 
> ...



Noted but as Rob says in the link I provided, regarding these RF related issues with USB sources: "This gets eliminated when the lap-top is not connected to the mains"

Break the leakage current loop and the RF issues get eliminated and there's no need for ferrites on the USB cable. 

As I've said before, completely blocking leakage currents from a permanently mains connected USB source is not easy to do. In which case ferrites can definitely help. But ferrites aren't required for a battery powered USB source (disconnected from mains power).


----------



## Jawed

doraymon said:


> The problem is that ferries provide impedance which varies significantly with frequency so from what I understand getting 4-5k Ohms impedance on the frequency range say 100MHz - 1GHz would require tons of ferrite cores, the cable would bend under the weight of the clamps, the USB or power connector of the DAVE would be subject to extremely high bending stress and will eventually collapse in a catastrophic failure!
> [...]
> You need either an EMI lab or a lot, lot of experimentation!


The desk, here, where DAVE sits is taking all the weight of the ferrites.

And as I keep saying, I used the optical cable to check that I have enough ferrites  20 wasn't enough on the USB cable, for what it's worth, but 20 is a good starting point for experiments to find out if ferrites are worth using, if you don't have an optical source to use with DAVE.

Now playing: Billie Marten - Lionhearted


----------



## doraymon

On a different note, I just received a message that my DAVE should be with me the coming weekend...
No need to explain you guys how I feel right?


----------



## rayl

doraymon said:


> On a different note, I just received a message that my DAVE should be with me the coming weekend...
> No need to explain you guys how I feel right?



V. exciting I am sure....

Credit where credit is due -- for both my DAVE order last fall and my Blu2 order early this year, the units shipped out from Bluebird pretty much exactly 1.5 wks earlier than the initial estimates (in weeks) provided.  One reads about rumors of case work issues with black, etc., but my experience has been that such talk were rumors only and the lead times were accurately provided with a slight bit of slack.

The 12 wk wait (10.5 actually) for Blu2 was trying, but hey, I know someone who waited much longer for a Lampi Pacific -- and the wait meaningfully exceeded the initial estimate.... Though those have a ton of customization options so ea unit is made-to-order.


----------



## elviscaprice (Apr 18, 2018)

Jawed said:


> Nice! You upgraded to DAVE. I got the feeling you were going to stick to Hugo/Hugo 2.



Was there really any other choice?  I waited it out with a 2Qute looking for a cost effective upgrade.  Was never happy about Hugo 2 and it's batteries.  Waited for Quest to see if it received any further desired features, it did not.  So now what?  Remain with 2Qute deficiencies?  I don't think there is going to be another TT, and even if there is it's still going to be pricey, almost as much as a discounted DAVE.  So DAVE was it, only took me over 2 years to realize it was my ONLY Chord viable option.  The good thing is, my system doesn't require anything more powerful than what DAVE amp can provide.  So there won't be any further upgrade from DAVE.  Just an additional add on with m-scaler, which I said would be out by the end of the year.  Now, I'm thinking much sooner.  Smart move by Chord.



Jawed said:


> They work. The USPCB you're using perfectly transmits all the RF noise that your spaghetti generates and feeds it into DAVE, spoiling the sound. A USB cable with 20 ferrites will be better as it'll filter the noise made by your spaghetti.



You got that correct, the USPCB is perfectly neutral, no new outside RF being picked up.  The good thing is that the signal the USPCB is passing along has already been isolated and cleansed of RF with the sCLK-EX server.  Couldn't ask for a better connection instead of some voodoo approach with beads.  I sure hope Rob fixes this with the new m-scaler, knowing him here, I'm sure he is motivated to do just that.




Jawed said:


> Try an optical cable (and disconnect USB) into DAVE, if you have a source with optical output.



Optical has it's format limitations, not an option.  Plus it does require a good source still with good clocking/power, which optical still doesn't preclude from passing along and thus influencing SQ from the DAC.  Like the USPCB, optical is neutral.


----------



## Deftone

Just thinking that people are going to great lengths to get USB to sound like optical with ferrites etc then why not just use optical? Unless your listening to very high sample rate music which I didn’t know there was much of if any? and that’s true high res not upscaled by HDTracks.

As we all know as chord owners, chord DACs make the most of redbook CD and it sounds exceptional. I’m happy with 44.1khz so optical maxing out at 192khz is more than enough and we know the very cheap kabeldirek is reliable.


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 18, 2018)

Deftone said:


> Just thinking that people are going to great lengths to get USB to sound like optical with ferrites etc then why not just use optical? Unless your listening to very high sample rate music which I didn’t know there was much of if any? and that’s true high res not upscaled by HDTracks.



There may be a variety of reasons, on an individual basis. But as per the last few pages of this thread, getting >24/96 to work with Dave's Toslink input isn't as straight forward/fuss-free as with Mojo and Hugo2, and it's not just about the cable, the source is really important too.

There are also a limited number of TOSlink sources confirmed working at 192kHz with Dave available.  There are plenty more USB sources and people love to try different USB sources out there.

Assuming you can even get 24/192 working (I got there in the end), DXD (352kHz) and DSD128 (or higher) sample rates won't work over TOSlink.

But for me 192kHz covers me nicely for 99.9% of my music.

Plus I've paid good money for Rob's top class DPLL jitter eliminator, so why not make it sweat a little !


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 19, 2018)

My observations aren't too dissimilar to Roy's last month, except my TX179 source (Pi2Design 502DAC with NDK clocks powered by LT3042) is much cheaper than Roy's very nicely modified Oppo player:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/rev...phile-vortex-box.787020/page-79#post-14120423

I struggle with hearing differences in depth, using the same DAC's different inputs. I can hear it comparing different DACs and different headphones, but it's harder with my music and my ears to hear the differences between the inputs of the same DAC. With headphones that is.

But what is much easier for me to describe (with headphones) is the presence of any listening fatigue over 1 hour and more of listening, and even easier to describe, the desire to turn up the volume or wanting to turn down the volume for extended listening. TOSLink and a battery based USB source (disconnected from mains power) wins out for me in these 2 areas.

@romaz  isn't around these forums anymore it seems but based on his comments above there about his Oppo optical source, it would be interesting to know if he would describe his observations similarly.


----------



## tunes (Apr 19, 2018)

doraymon said:


> On a different note, I just received a message that my DAVE should be with me the coming weekend...
> No need to explain you guys how I feel right?


I bought an Aurender N100 as it seemed to be the ideal music server for the DAVE  in terms of wireless flexibility both to stream music and storage with solid state memory playback to eliminate any noise generated by a spinning hard drive. The wireless interface uses an iPad to select and search music library.  All seemed good but mains supplied and no optical out, only usb.  

So now I am looking for a battery transport and storage device to connect to DAVE via optical since can still get a 15 foot Toslink cable that will work across the room and eliminate all the fuss over EMI noise, ferrites and mains issues. 

I currently have a Questyle QP1R that doubles as a portable dap for use with IEMs on the go and has two slots for SD cards so plenty of storage and optical out!  It as several disadvantages as a transport:

1. No WiFi so cannot use a music streaming service.

2. Software is limited for searching music library and often very frustrating UI.

So does anyone know of a better solution for feeding DAVE with optical that solves the above limitations??!


----------



## maxh22

tunes said:


> I bought an Aurender N100 as it seemed to be the ideal music server for the DAVE  in terms of wireless flexibility both to stream music and storage with solid state memory playback to eliminate any noise generated by a spinning hard drive. The wireless interface uses an iPad to select and search music library.  All seemed good but mains supplied and no optical out, only usb.
> 
> So now I am looking for a battery transport and storage device to connect to DAVE via optical since can still get a 15 foot Toslink cable that will work across the room and eliminate all the fuss over EMI noise, ferrites and mains issues.
> 
> ...



Any modern MSI laptop (unplugged from mains with background processes disabled and peripherals unplugged will sound excellent via optical).


----------



## jrfmd

ray-dude said:


> Jeff, I did a pretty comprehensive review of the Blu2 and tried to explain what it was doing over and above what is already being done in DAVE and Hugo2.  See link below.  Please PM or post if you have questions and I'm happy to try and help.


thanks for the article
do I have it right?
they have developed a new algorithm for converting digital to analogue that encompasses more points of adjustment over a longer time domain and this transformation is added to the d/a chain to improve the sound over the source-->dave-->earphone chain.
thanks
Jeff


----------



## tunes

maxh22 said:


> Any modern MSI laptop (unplugged from mains with background processes disabled and peripherals unplugged will sound excellent via optical).


Understood but the whole purpose of getting a DAP to use as transport is to get away from needing a laptop just for this purpose.


----------



## ray-dude

jrfmd said:


> thanks for the article
> do I have it right?
> they have developed a new algorithm for converting digital to analogue that encompasses more points of adjustment over a longer time domain and this transformation is added to the d/a chain to improve the sound over the source-->dave-->earphone chain.
> thanks
> Jeff



In spirit yes.  A big part of the Chord "secret sauce" is their algorithm to reconstruct as closely as possible the original analog wave form from digital data.  As you go up the Chord product line from Mojo to Hugo to Hugo2 to DAVE, the sophistication of that filter goes up (as represented by "taps"...at a 100k' level more taps == better reconstruction)

The Blu2 takes the secret sauce algorithm which is built into the DAVE/Mojo/Hugo/etc. and executes it in a separate box.  It is many times more powerful than even what's in the DAVE natively (1 million taps vs 150k taps)  Chord has branded the 1M tap processing as "mScaler".  mScaler applies to both digital data from the Blu2 CD player, as well as the USB and other digital inputs to the Blu2. 

When connected to the DAVE, it essentially transforms the DAVE from a 150k tap device (which is already world class) to a 1M tap device (which at least to my ears, is completely transformational)


----------



## maxh22

tunes said:


> Understood but the whole purpose of getting a DAP to use as transport is to get away from needing a laptop just for this purpose.



Hmmm.. I thought you said you were looking for a new battery powered transport since your DAP cannot stream music?

"So now I am looking for a battery transport and storage device to connect to DAVE via optical since can still get a 15 foot Toslink cable that will work across the room and eliminate all the fuss over EMI noise, ferrites and mains issues."

The MSI laptop happens to fit the bill but I understand it's not for everyone.

For convienence purposes one would be able to install an application such as Team Viewer or similar and wirelessly change their tracks.


----------



## rayl

jrfmd said:


> thanks for the article
> do I have it right?
> they have developed a new algorithm for converting digital to analogue that encompasses more points of adjustment over a longer time domain and this transformation is added to the d/a chain to improve the sound over the source-->dave-->earphone chain.
> thanks
> Jeff



I would phrase it differently. See if this is helpful:

What does a digital PCM file give you?  Essentially amplitudes (heights of the waveform) at fixed intervals, say 44,100 times a second.
If you draw this out, you won't get the original waveform back.  You get a series of rectangles, 44,100 of them per second.

To render this into a waveform, you need filtering -- to smooth out the rectangles if you will.
This can be done entirely in analog (and NOS DACs do this), but getting high precision out of analog is hard.
So most designs upsample to a higher rate -- i.e. get more rectangles per second -- to make the final analog stage easier.

But how to do this upsampling?  From Whittaker-Shannon interpolation, we know that at any point in the timeline can be calculated, assuming the original waveform that was sampled was < 1/2 the sampling rate (known as the Nyquist rate). This calculation requires convolution with an infinite sinc function.  That's the challenge -- it is hard to do a calculation to infinity (except as a mathematical expression on paper)!

So inevitably, every actual realized upsampling process uses an approximation. And every approximation has some sort of error -- sometimes people trade off one type of filter for another bec they prefer the sound of one type of error over another.

The approach of DAVE, Blu2, etc. is to try to approximate the sinc function as closely as possible by using longer and longer filters. As the filter gets longer, it gets closer to the ideal infinite filter. The contribution of the Blu2 M-scaler is to add a really big 1 million tap length filter compared to the state-of-the-art before the M-scaler. The M-scaler outputs a 705.6/768kHz upsampled stream calculated with the 1MM tap filter.


----------



## Jiffi32

elviscaprice said:


> Just an additional add on with m-scaler, which I said would be out by the end of the year.  Now, I'm thinking much sooner.  Smart move by Chord.



What makes you say it will arrive much sooner? has there been some news somewhere?


----------



## Triode User

Jiffi32 said:


> What makes you say it will arrive much sooner? has there been some news somewhere?



I think he is just trying to wind me up. I have a large bet placed on there there not even being a named prototype by the end of the year.


----------



## Jawed

elviscaprice said:


> Was there really any other choice?  I waited it out with a 2Qute looking for a cost effective upgrade.  Was never happy about Hugo 2 and it's batteries.  Waited for Quest to see if it received any further desired features, it did not.  So now what?  Remain with 2Qute deficiencies?  I don't think there is going to be another TT, and even if there is it's still going to be pricey, almost as much as a discounted DAVE.  So DAVE was it, only took me over 2 years to realize it was my ONLY Chord viable option.  The good thing is, my system doesn't require anything more powerful than what DAVE amp can provide.  So there won't be any further upgrade from DAVE.  Just an additional add on with m-scaler, which I said would be out by the end of the year.  Now, I'm thinking much sooner.  Smart move by Chord.


I doubt there'll be another TT, too. DAVE should easily last you for decades. The LCD screen might be the first thing to go, but LCD screens seem to be able to run for decades too.

Eventually there'll be a $500 Chord DAC that sounds better than DAVE, but not so fast!



> You got that correct, the USPCB is perfectly neutral, no new outside RF being picked up.  The good thing is that the signal the USPCB is passing along has already been isolated and cleansed of RF with the sCLK-EX server.


Until the spaghetti companies come out with new stuff that "sounds even better"...



> Couldn't ask for a better connection instead of some voodoo approach with beads.


Ironic that you call this voodoo, since it's very simple electronics. It puzzles me immensely when people reject the best solution. RF filtering with ferrites isn't just a fad on a few Chord threads, it's a technique that's used widely in all sorts of industries and products where noise would otherwise cause problems. There are ferrites for RF filtering inside many hi-fi components, including Chord's. 

But the electrical inputs on DAVE need extra help with RF, sadly. Rob really needs to get a catastrophically noisy RF source to test with his future designs...

Now playing: Lucy Dacus - Dream State...


----------



## jrfmd

ray-dude said:


> In spirit yes.  A big part of the Chord "secret sauce" is their algorithm to reconstruct as closely as possible the original analog wave form from digital data.  As you go up the Chord product line from Mojo to Hugo to Hugo2 to DAVE, the sophistication of that filter goes up (as represented by "taps"...at a 100k' level more taps == better reconstruction)
> 
> The Blu2 takes the secret sauce algorithm which is built into the DAVE/Mojo/Hugo/etc. and executes it in a separate box.  It is many times more powerful than even what's in the DAVE natively (1 million taps vs 150k taps)  Chord has branded the 1M tap processing as "mScaler".  mScaler applies to both digital data from the Blu2 CD player, as well as the USB and other digital inputs to the Blu2.
> 
> When connected to the DAVE, it essentially transforms the DAVE from a 150k tap device (which is already world class) to a 1M tap device (which at least to my ears, is completely transformational)


thanks, I appreciate your time
jeff


----------



## jrfmd

rayl said:


> I would phrase it differently. See if this is helpful:
> 
> What does a digital PCM file give you?  Essentially amplitudes (heights of the waveform) at fixed intervals, say 44,100 times a second.
> If you draw this out, you won't get the original waveform back.  You get a series of rectangles, 44,100 of them per second.
> ...






So this is the problem preventing me from accepting this theoretical explanation of the blu m-scaler:

(BTW if they showed me a reconstructed sine wave with and without the m scaler I could see if there is any difference but on theoretical grounds the m-scaler doesn't make sense to me)

According to the nyquest theory, you cant "upscale" since you are not adding information when you double the rate of a sampled segment.  This you simply creates pairs of identical rectangles for each single rectangle you had when you sampled the analogue signa at the original sampled rate. this doesn't reveal anything about what was happening to the analogue signal between samples (which is the whole point of the Nyquist theory=you have to SAMPLE twice as fast as you wish to reproduce the analogue signal (simply duplicating each sample you've already sampled is a waste of time)

I appreciate your message since it made clear to me what the blu is supposed to be doing.  It may indeed sound much better than any other d/a converter but the explanation seems to be incorrect (at least to me) and I understand that a lot of smart people have found that it actually works  in their system. My only problem is it seems a black box to me.

Jeff


----------



## Crgreen

jrfmd said:


> My only problem is it seems a black box to me.
> 
> Jeff



It also comes in silver.


----------



## rayl

jrfmd said:


> So this is the problem preventing me from accepting this theoretical explanation of the blu m-scaler:
> 
> (BTW if they showed me a reconstructed sine wave with and without the m scaler I could see if there is any difference but on theoretical grounds the m-scaler doesn't make sense to me)
> 
> ...



This may help with your interpretation:

Upsampling should *not* be performed by replicating the same sample value 16 times to go from 44.1 to 705.6. That is the point of the interpolation filter.  (A very basic zero order hold filter would perform the replication, but outside of a class lab, such filters are not used in DACs...) The interpolation filter determines how to calculate the 16x value.

Actually one project I've always wanted to tackle is to create an illustration of going from 44.1 to 705.6 with each of the filters published for various DACs (though I don't know whether SABRE publishes their filter specs!) vs various lengths of sinc....  Alas, I no longer have access to MATLAB, etc. to whip this up easily.  Maybe someone else can carry the torch!

(There is another way to view upsampling, in the frequency domain where sinc maps to a perfect brickwall rectangle, but I find that discussing it that way confused the non-EE audience more, so I've stopped offering that explanation...)


----------



## Triode User

Crgreen said:


> It also comes in silver.



Also, it has rounded edges.


----------



## Mython

jrfmd said:


> So this is the problem preventing me from accepting this theoretical explanation of the blu m-scaler:
> 
> (BTW if they showed me a reconstructed sine wave with and without the m scaler I could see if there is any difference but on theoretical grounds the m-scaler doesn't make sense to me)
> 
> ...



The whole _universe_ is a 'black box', which we all go through life desperately kidding each other, and ourselves, we have a chance of understanding. LOL


----------



## rayl

Triode User said:


> Also, it has rounded edges.



And of course, "rounding" the rectangles from PCM is actually exactly what we are talking about!


----------



## Crgreen

Mython said:


> The whole _universe_ is a 'black box', which we all go through life desperately kidding each other, and ourselves, we have a chance of understanding. LOL



If that were true, how would you know?


----------



## AndrewOld

Jawed said:


> Ironic that you call this voodoo, since it's very simple electronics. It puzzles me immensely when people reject the best solution. RF filtering with ferrites isn't just a fad on a few Chord threads, it's a technique that's used widely in all sorts of industries and products where noise would otherwise cause problems. There are ferrites for RF filtering inside many hi-fi components, including Chord's.



It doesn’t seem to me simple electronics at all. Nearly every Blu2/Dave owner has a completely different set of ferrites and cable to deal with the same problem. If it is simple electronics then Chord should supply, or at least recommend, the correct cable with the correct number of correct ferrites. Or is that too simple? A Blu2/Dave costs  £17k. Is it too much to expect that the correct interface between them should be specified?


----------



## Crgreen

AndrewOld said:


> It doesn’t seem to me simple electronics at all. Nearly every Blu2/Dave owner has a completely different set of ferrites and cable to deal with the same problem. If it is simple electronics then Chord should supply, or at least recommend, the correct cable with the correct number of correct ferrites. Or is that too simple? A Blu2/Dave costs  £17k. Is it too much to expect that the correct interface between them should be specified?



That would be to admit there’s an issue, and Chord wouldn’t do that. Interesting that so far as I’m aware, there’s been no BluDave review yet, just some comments by a reviewer to whom it was demonstrated.


----------



## Mython

Crgreen said:


> If that were true, how would you know?



Obviously, I meant _metaphorically,_ in the sense of _the great unknown.



Triode User said:



			Also, it has rounded edges.
		
Click to expand...


Wait,_ are you saying _Blu2 _has rounded edges, or that _the universe_ has rounded edges? 



Seriously, though, back to Jeff, I'm sure Rob will weigh-in with a proper explanation soon.


----------



## flyte3333

Crgreen said:


> That would be to admit there’s an issue, and Chord wouldn’t do that.



Not correct, Rob’s explained before:

“issue we have here is signal correlated RF noise from the actual BNC data corrupting Dave's ground plane, not Blu side noise getting through.”

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...-official-thread.831343/page-87#post-13696701

And I don’t consider these issues - he’s just explaining the potential technical mechanisms that may explain the things we hear
. This can only lead to future improvements. 

He’s a very open and honest guy and I hope he remains that way. We all lose if he decides to stop posting his thoughts.


----------



## Crgreen

Em2016 said:


> Not correct, Rob’s explained before:
> 
> “issue we have here is signal correlated RF noise from the actual BNC data corrupting Dave's ground plane, not Blu side noise getting through.”
> 
> ...



I’m sure that’s right. Rob is a specialist engineer whose services are used by Chord. What he says on these forums is not the same as the company admitting there are interface issues. I really can’t see Chord recommending certain ferrites to combat this problem. 

I’m no expert, but it does seem to be an issue with Dave’s ground plane, possibly unforeseen at the time it was developed, prior to the m-scaler.


----------



## Triode User

Crgreen said:


> That would be to admit there’s an issue, and Chord wouldn’t do that. Interesting that so far as I’m aware, there’s been no BluDave review yet, just some comments by a reviewer to whom it was demonstrated.



What has been said several times by Rob is that the performance of Blu2 is extraordinary even without ferrites and that any discussion of ferrites is mere fine tuning and is not fundamental or essential.


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 19, 2018)

Crgreen said:


> I’m no expert, but it does seem to be an issue with Dave’s ground plane, possibly unforeseen at the time it was developed, prior to the m-scaler.



Another example is the USB galvanic isolation of Dave (and every other high end USB DAC on the planet seemingly)...

John Swenson has only recently shown (after developing his own custom test gear) that there are “high impedance leakage currents” that sail right through digital isolators and transformers.

According to John, digital isolators and transformers typically do a great job filtering low impedance leakge currents but high impedance stuff sails right through. I’ve posted the links a few times before.

Sure, it would have been great to have known about this 5 years ago but that’s just how it is.

Dave 2 and Blu3 will be better and so on...

Dave 2 may even have it’s M-Scaler built in... who knows.

I'm grateful guys like Rob share things openly as they go along and learn. Rob's already said Davina will be an important tool going forward too, so that will fuel more innovation and improvements.


----------



## Jawed

rayl said:


> Actually one project I've always wanted to tackle is to create an illustration of going from 44.1 to 705.6 with each of the filters published for various DACs (though I don't know whether SABRE publishes their filter specs!) vs various lengths of sinc....  Alas, I no longer have access to MATLAB, etc. to whip this up easily.  Maybe someone else can carry the torch!


I believe GnuOctave is popular:

https://www.gnu.org/software/octave/

Ear Level is a very informative site for digital audio:

http://www.earlevel.com/main/2010/12/05/building-a-windowed-sinc-filter/

Archimago has some nice stuff:

https://archimago.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/audiophile-myth-260-detestable-digital.html
http://archimago.blogspot.co.uk/2018/02/musingsmeasurements-on-blurring-and-why.html

Now playing: Fenne Lily - Three Oh Nine


----------



## Jawed

AndrewOld said:


> A Blu2/Dave costs  £17k. Is it too much to expect that the correct interface between them should be specified?


I tend to agree.

Rob's testing regime doesn't seem to be tough enough, which means digital connections introduce sound quality problems in others' system (but not his). Though there is a strong consensus that his galvanic isolation on USB is about the best found on any DAC.

I think Rob has been climbing a much tougher learning curve than we can really appreciate. Most of us know how tiring and frustrating audio evaluations can be. Well that's Rob's 9 to 5... at least some days. And the performance levels are entirely new in the industry. For example DAVE will show RF problems much more clearly than Mojo because it's more transparent.

Ideally, as Chord releases new digital components, they really are immune to the digital connection. But there are plenty of reports of people whose systems still show problems even when there's an optical input to DAVE alone. But if there's another mains-powered component in the system, then the problem is caused by an interaction of DAVE and that other component. Or two other components and not DAVE. And people will blame DAVE. So Chord can't win. (Not to mention there are people who have a strong dislike for the low distortion sound of the optical connection!)

Single powered-component systems, such as Devialet, do offer a great solution to all this digital cable nonsense. Wi-fi source!

I can imagine Chord producing a system-in-a-box like Devialet, eventually. Apart from anything else, they're really easy to sell!

Back in the 90s, my Audio Synthesis transport and DAC was sold with an option to buy from them their preferred optical cable to connect them and it worked really nicely. That whole lot was sold to me directly, not via a retailer.

Also Rob appears to think the improvement with ferrites on the BNC cables for BluDAVE is quite minor. Others think it's a big deal. I think there's a strong consensus that the sound of CD replay isn't much affected by ferrites on the BNC cables, though. The implication being that USB streaming is the real cause of, apparently, quite strong disagreement on the sound quality variations caused by connecting Blu2 to DAVE with BNC cables.

Now playing: Big Thief - Masterpiece


----------



## Jawed

Em2016 said:


> Not correct, Rob’s explained before:
> 
> “issue we have here is signal correlated RF noise from the actual BNC data corrupting Dave's ground plane, not Blu side noise getting through.”
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...-official-thread.831343/page-87#post-13696701


Rob later talked about how Blu 2's FPGA is a source of noise itself:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-627#post-13882837



> Now with digital electronics we have something called ground bounce. This is current from switching activity within the FPGA or chip that goes into ground, and this current causes the ground wires (and ground plane as a ground plane has inductance too) to bounce up and down due to the ground inductance. We have two forms of noise - clock noise, which for the M scaler is 208 MHz; and noise due to logic level transitions as the internal data signal propagates through the FPGA gates. These delays are from 100pS to 500pS, so are in the 1 to 5GHz region - centred around 2 GHz. This noise (unlike clock noise) is signal correlated, and this would explain why use of 2GHz ferrites improves depth perception. Also, the galvanic isolation is effective at 208 MHz, but is ten times less effective at 2 GHz.



Now playing: Siv Jakobsen - Dark


----------



## flyte3333

Jawed said:


> Rob later talked about how Blu 2's FPGA is a source of noise itself:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-627#post-13882837
> 
> ...



Yes indeed, especially regarding Blu2 galvanically isolated BNC outputs: “the galvanic isolation is effective at 208 MHz, but is ten times less effective at 2 GHz.”


----------



## flyte3333

Jawed said:


> Back in the 90s, my Audio Synthesis transport and DAC was sold with an option to buy from them their preferred optical cable to connect them and it worked really nicely. That whole lot was sold to me directly, not via a retailer.



Playback Designs have been doing this for a long while and still do (high speed fiber cable between transport and DAC)


----------



## rayl

Jawed said:


> I believe GnuOctave is popular:
> 
> https://www.gnu.org/software/octave/
> 
> ...



@Jawed, thanks for the pointer to Octave!!!  My MATLAB is super rusty after a few decades, but...  it works... except if you do too much calculation, the PC grinds forever w/o a way to stop Octave other than killing it....

@jrfmd, I generated 4 plots below which I hope will help.  They show:

1. a sine wave with the sampled data points... the sine wave is plotted at horizontal resolution of 64x the sampling rate
2. upsampling/interpolation using the ideal sinc (which is infinite) to 8x the sampling rate
3. upsampling to 8x using a zero-order hold (i.e. repeating the sample value 8 times)
4. upsampling to 8x using a simple connect-the-dots method (i.e. straight line betw data samples)

The plots are pulled from the middle of a 10 second period.... that's bec the edges are not bandwidth limited (values fall suddenly to zero) so the middle minimizes aliasing artifacts.

Imagine that filling in between the upsampled dots is now left to later processing (possibly all analog).  The point is, there's much less to fill in with the upsampled data than with the original data -- but that isn't super useful unless the upsampled data gets you closer to the original waveform.

I am lacking the time to discover what filters are used by real upsampling DAC chips like SABRE, etc.,to show those... but in case anyone wants to tweak, the MATLAB code (which runs in free Octave) is at: https://pastebin.com/YxDycsCB

I've also picked small #s to speed calculation and plotting -- and extreme examples for illustration purposes.  (If you are curious, you can intentionally introduce aliasing and see what it looks like!)

This illustration has been on my mind ever since getting a Blu2 and having friends ask "why would you buy an upsampler???"  I've had a hard time sketching on paper by hand, but now I have pseudo-real (except for the over-simplified filters apart from sinc) illustrations thanks to Octave.


----------



## jlbrach

I own the dave/blu2 combo and have experimented with and without ferrites and to be honest if nobody ever mentioned the subject i would have been just fine.....


----------



## Triode User

Jawed said:


> I think there's a strong consensus that the sound of CD replay isn't much affected by ferrites on the BNC cables, though. The implication being that USB streaming is the real cause of, apparently, quite strong disagreement on the sound quality variations caused by connecting Blu2 to DAVE with BNC cables.



I have never seen that suggested. On the contrary and as discussed Rob says the source of the RF is the MScaler circuit and this gets into the dual bnc. My personal listening tends to confirm that the faux brightness and detail associated with RF is there just the same whether from CD playback on the Blu2 or whether streamed to Blu2 via usb.


----------



## flyte3333

Triode User said:


> I have never seen that suggested. On the contrary and as discussed Rob says the source of the RF is the MScaler circuit and this gets into the dual bnc. My personal listening tends to confirm that the faux brightness and detail associated with RF is there just the same whether from CD playback on the Blu2 or whether streamed to Blu2 via usb.



This seems consistent with John Swenson's theory about leakage current loops between SMPS's. And these high impedance leakage currents sailing right through digital isolators and transformers.

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...grounding/?page=9&tab=comments#comment-735311

and

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...rounding/?page=10&tab=comments#comment-735903

and

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...rounding/?page=37&tab=comments#comment-799484


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 20, 2018)

Speaking of leakage loops.

Well I've setup my battery powered microRendu and battery powered optical ethernet converters for the weekend. Proper battery powered, no coupling to mains power at all. So the microRendu inputs are perfectly isolated from mains power.  Therefore Dave's USB input is perfectly isolated from mains power (ground / leakage loops). And that's using the impedance matched and properly shielded Uptone USPCB connector for the best USB signal integrity to feed into Dave's USB input.

I was comparing this to my Uptone LPS-1 powered microRendu and John Swenson recommended switch with grounding trick to block most leakage currents from 'sailing right through the transformers'... which is probably about as good as it gets for anything coupled to mains power. It's purpose is to approximate a battery but with very low output impedance. But it still has some coupling to mains power.

The difference between the above two microRendu setups is very noticeable. The battery powered microRendu is noticeably less fatiguing after >1 hour listening, than the LPS-1 powered microRendu - smooth and without listening fatigue much like the battery powered iPhone Roon endpoint I tested a page or two earlier in this thread. Again, there's that desire to want to crank the volume with the battery powered microRendu. The music flows, feet tapping, no fatigue after an hour of listening. Just like earlier observations.

What is NOT easily noticeable (I can't differentiate at all to be perfectly honest) - any difference with TOSlink !!! And the battery powered microRendu (v1.4 with Crystek clock upgrade for those of you playing at home) would be about as good as it get in terms of ultra low noise output and USB signal integrity feeding Dave etc etc...

I was actively listening for the differences Rob has mentioned that battery powered USB source edges optical in terms of flow and focus... I couldn't hear it ! I really wanted to hear those differences too to give me an excuse to keep the microRendu !!

I posted the same observations on the Hugo2 thread previously but I thought Daves transparency might reveal some differences between the highest quality USB source and Toslink...

Amazing.

What has it re-enforced to me?

1. Dave is incredible on all inputs (you all knew that already). I only heard these differences (especially the listening fatigue and desire to up or drop the volume)  reveal themselves over extended listening, while enjoying the music - not by quick and stressful A/B'ing.

2. Rob's DPLL is the real deal (as if I didn't know from Mojo and then Hugo2 already)

3. Leakage currents (and their effects and associated RF effects) getting into the Dave are bad. I think Rob has used the term fungus somewhere before. Somebody needs to make a digital isolator that doesn't let any leakage currents through - none, nada, like optical isolation. Easier said than done of course otherwise I'd do it myself and be a very rich man selling it to everyone.

4. Dave is incredible. The leap from Hugo2 is everything I wanted it to be.

Chain is just Dave driving headphones directly.


----------



## jrfmd

Mython said:


> The whole _universe_ is a 'black box', which we all go through life desperately kidding each other, and ourselves, we have a chance of understanding. LOL



I'll drink to that
jeff


----------



## jayz

Crgreen said:


> That would be to admit there’s an issue, and Chord wouldn’t do that.




I don't believe these sort of issues are clear cut as one would like. Just to give another example, a decade or so ago we started to see the very first EVs (Electric Vehicles) on the road. As you can imagine, these cars did not have combustion engines to drown out road and wind generated noise so people started noticing road noise. Manufacturers were aware of this and so they included extra noise dampening but if you know the principles behind acoustic noise isolation, there is always a compromise because if we engineer panels and body sections of cars to such an extent that it blocks all noticeable noise, it will end up weighing as much as a heavily armoured bullet proof car. 

Getting back to Dave, I presume what is happening here is that with astonishingly low distortion and noise specs, suddenly external factors considered  insignificant with other lesser dacs, have now become prominent and noticeable. One could argue then that it is the manufacturers responsibility to deal with some of this (and I am sure Chord Dave will have better noise immunity compared to others) but inevitably the designer has to stop somewhere commercially viable for a particular iteration of the design. 

Just take it easy, tell your friends that your DAC is so good that even quantum noise can be heard, and even better - try to see if you can tackle it in your system. Who knows maybe your solution might even have commercial potential i.e. you can sell to other owners.


----------



## Emerald Core

Question to @Rob Watts and Dave owners who own streamers with dedicated internal clocks.

I have ordered Dave along with an Aurender N10. 

The main point is, should I connect them with USB or AES (with oxco clock from N10)? 

Is the internal clock inside the Dave superior to OXCO inside N10? Has anyone compared Dave sound with or without using external clocked signal from a streamer ? 

This will help me decide investing on the cable while waiting for delivery of both. 

Thanks


----------



## Crgreen

Mython said:


> Obviously, I meant _metaphorically,_ in the sense of _the great unknown._



So what you are saying is that there are *known knowns*; there are things we know we know. We also know there are *known unknowns*; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know.

Which actually, is true


----------



## Crgreen

Triode User said:


> What has been said several times by Rob is that the performance of Blu2 is extraordinary even without ferrites and that any discussion of ferrites is mere fine tuning and is not fundamental or essential.



I prefer to use my own ears, and anyway, Rob’s aren’t available.


----------



## Mython

Crgreen said:


> So what you are saying is that there are *known knowns*; there are things we know we know. We also know there are *known unknowns*; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know.
> 
> Which actually, is true




Mmmm... yes and no.

I'm pointing to the _contradictory_ nature of human perception, in that we tell ourselves the things we perceive are 'real' and therefore amenable to understanding (known knowns, if you like), but they might very well not be real at all. That's the kind of thing scientists and DAC designers generally don't like to contemplate and/or dismiss as nonsense, but I am not one of them.

In this _experience_ of life that I am perceiving, there appears to be a superb DAC by the name of DAVE, and it's design appears to be based upon 'real' understandings by a 'real' person (and a very talented and experienced person, at that), but *maybe* these things that I'm perceiving are just figments of my imagination that I a may be mistakenly perceiving as 'real'.


....and now back to our scheduled programming (sorry for the OT)


----------



## Crgreen

Emerald Core said:


> Question to @Rob Watts and Dave owners who own streamers with dedicated internal clocks.
> 
> I have ordered Dave along with an Aurender N10.
> 
> ...



My advise is to use an Iso Regen powered by an LPS 1.2 battery power supply betwixt the two. As has been pointed out, the battery supply gives the best USB signal into Dave.


----------



## Emerald Core

Crgreen said:


> My advise is to use an Iso Regen powered by an LPS 1.2 battery power supply betwixt the two. As has been pointed out, the battery supply gives the best USB signal into Dave.



Thanks for the advice. I'll keep a budget for this usb setup. But I really want to know if AES has any benefits if used with OXCO enabled streamer. I will obviously use tidal HiFi and qobuz to listen to music.


----------



## doraymon

While waiting the D-Day (DAVE-Day, tomorrow!) I'm wondering if my SOtM sMS-200ultra and tX-USBultra upstream the DAVE would be better used in the "For Sale" section of this forum...
In my previous system they served well in cleaning the USB signal being input to the DAC, but from what I read with the DAVE they would just be another potential source of common mode noise!

Yes, I will do tests and decide with my ears but any "theoretical" comment would be much appreciated.

At least it will help me to kill time until tomorrow!


----------



## jonstatt

rayl said:


> V. exciting I am sure....
> 
> One reads about rumors of case work issues with black, etc., but my experience has been that such talk were rumors only and the lead times were accurately provided with a slight bit of slack.
> 
> The 12 wk wait (10.5 actually) for Blu2 was trying, but hey, I know someone who waited much longer for a Lampi Pacific -- and the wait meaningfully exceeded the initial estimate.... Though those have a ton of customization options so ea unit is made-to-order.



Case work issues were not a rumour for Blu 2. I have it in writing from Mitch at Chord. This resulted in a backlog. Mine took 14 weeks. They have a VERY strict first come first served policy but apparently some get fed up with the wait and cancel and this has effectively allowed some to queue jump. Good luck for them.....waiting 14 weeks was crazy.


----------



## Rob Watts

Emerald Core said:


> Question to @Rob Watts and Dave owners who own streamers with dedicated internal clocks.
> 
> I have ordered Dave along with an Aurender N10.
> 
> ...



USB is best; AES EBU is a joke standard, not intended for high data rates, and was simply because studios had XLR's and lots of cable around. Forget about external clocks, they will either make it sound worse (more electronics = more RF noise) or have no effect; the crucial clock is the one located within Dave a few mm away from the pulse array flip-flops.  



Crgreen said:


> I prefer to use my own ears, and anyway, Rob’s aren’t available.



I am kind of attached to my ears!


----------



## Thenewguy007

Rob Watts said:


> USB is best; AES EBU is a joke standard, not intended for high data rates, and was simply because studios had XLR's and lots of cable around. Forget about external clocks, they will either make it sound worse (more electronics = more RF noise) or have no effect; the crucial clock is the one located within Dave a few mm away from the pulse array flip-flops.
> 
> 
> 
> I am kind of attached to my ears!



Interesting.

I've never heard anyone prefer the USB (even with galvanic isolation) over a AES/EBU cable on any other DAC in all my time here.


----------



## jacc

Emerald Core said:


> Question to @Rob Watts and Dave owners who own streamers with dedicated internal clocks.
> 
> I have ordered Dave along with an Aurender N10.
> 
> ...



I vote for USB too. I think DAVE's best input should be USB or optical though N10 sounds better with bnc and/or AES. In my case USB has higher resolution and more depth than AES.


----------



## Thenewguy007

jacc said:


> I vote for USB too. I think DAVE's best input should be USB or optical though N10 sounds better with bnc and/or AES. In my case USB has higher resolution and more depth than AES.



Are your cables matched? Meaning same length, same conductors, same gauge, same plug materials?
If you have well shielded silver UPOCC large gauge AES cable with rhodium over silver connections vs. a standard USB cable, I would think the AES will easily win.


----------



## Triode User (Apr 20, 2018)

Thenewguy007 said:


> Are your cables matched? Meaning same length, same conductors, same gauge, same plug materials?
> If you have well shielded silver UPOCC large gauge AES cable with rhodium over silver connections vs. a standard USB cable, I would think the AES will easily win.



Well, you might know better than Rob Watts but even in a YMMV situation I think I would go for USB rather than AES into Dave. I doubt that the cables themselves would tilt the balance in favour of AES but it would be interesting to get your feedback.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Triode User said:


> Well, you might know better than Rob Watts but even in a YMMV situation I think I would go for USB rather than AES into Dave. I doubt that the cables themselves would tilt the balance in favour of AES but it would be interesting to get your feedback.



I never even implied that Rob was wrong, where did you even get that from?
I just said other people always rate the USB the worse, though that's always from different equipment.


----------



## Emerald Core

@Rob Watts interesting to know that usb is superior to AES from a one boxed streamer like the most praised N10. I read somewhere in forum that Chord Dacs are immune to jitter. Although it is reported that OXCO internal clock inside N10 that is linked to it's Coax and AES output proved to sound better than the (unclocked) USB out. 


Thanks and I will keep it in consideration.


----------



## elviscaprice (Apr 20, 2018)

Emerald Core said:


> @Rob Watts interesting to know that usb is superior to AES from a one boxed streamer like the most praised N10. I read somewhere in forum that Chord Dacs are immune to jitter. Although it is reported that OXCO internal clock inside N10 that is linked to it's Coax and AES output proved to sound better than the (unclocked) USB out.
> 
> 
> Thanks and I will keep it in consideration.



Best you test and listen yourself.  All that matters is how it sounds to you.  In my experience, upgraded clocks/power in the server equates to better SQ, regardless of DAC clocking (a different matter).  Adding extra fixers, like ISO Regen, can be hit or miss depending on the damage already done upstream from poor clocking/power.  Best to address the source instead of applying fixers.  Keep the path to the DAC as short as possible.  KISS


----------



## minibox

Just an update on my blu/dave combo. One of the stock bnc cords was faulty and the dual bnc connection dropped repeatedly. I tried 2 ferrites on each end of the bad cable but to no avail. In fact, the connection actually became worse. I ordered two of these guys from Amazon and they worked with no problem. 3 Foot HD-SDI 3G/6G RG6 BNC to BNC Video Coaxial Cable (75 Ohm) Purple 4.5Ghz Made in the USA by Custom Cable Connection https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074RK2RDD/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_Y8J2AbDFXPHVS
After listening with them in place for about a week I swapped out some power cords to see if I could achieve a different synergy. I was already very pleased with the sound but wanted to do some experimenting. Previously, I had both the dave and blu2 powered with Shunyata sidewinder vtx into a shunyata Denali pc. I thought I’d experiment with a much cheaper cable and hooked up 2 of the Pangea ac-14se’s. I was extremely surprised and pleased with the results. For the $, the new Pangea’s are phenomenal. Images became even more focused, while increasing in depth and width. It still doesn’t do what great vinyl can do but I am shocked by the layers of detail and realism. I never thought digital could sound this good. My current digital source is an aurender n100 but at some point I might strongly consider the sotm trifecta. Research leads me to believe it might clean up the signal a bit, but I think at this point the margins for improvement are minuscule. The blu/dave is one of (if not the most) significant upgrades I’ve ever made.


----------



## marcmccalmont

minibox said:


> Just an update on my blu/dave combo. One of the stock bnc cords was faulty and the dual bnc connection dropped repeatedly. I tried 2 ferrites on each end of the bad cable but to no avail. In fact, the connection actually became worse. I ordered two of these guys from Amazon and they worked with no problem. 3 Foot HD-SDI 3G/6G RG6 BNC to BNC Video Coaxial Cable (75 Ohm) Purple 4.5Ghz Made in the USA by Custom Cable Connection https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074RK2RDD/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_Y8J2AbDFXPHVS
> After listening with them in place for about a week I swapped out some power cords to see if I could achieve a different synergy. I was already very pleased with the sound but wanted to do some experimenting. Previously, I had both the dave and blu2 powered with Shunyata sidewinder vtx into a shunyata Denali pc. I thought I’d experiment with a much cheaper cable and hooked up 2 of the Pangea ac-14se’s. I was extremely surprised and pleased with the results. For the $, the new Pangea’s are phenomenal. Images became even more focused, while increasing in depth and width. It still doesn’t do what great vinyl can do but I am shocked by the layers of detail and realism. I never thought digital could sound this good. My current digital source is an aurender n100 but at some point I might strongly consider the sotm trifecta. Research leads me to believe it might clean up the signal a bit, but I think at this point the margins for improvement are minuscule. The blu/dave is one of (if not the most) significant upgrades I’ve ever made.


It’s nice to see people trying the Pangea’s and hearing positive results!


----------



## marcmccalmont (Apr 20, 2018)

Emerald Core said:


> @Rob Watts interesting to know that usb is superior to AES from a one boxed streamer like the most praised N10. I read somewhere in forum that Chord Dacs are immune to jitter. Although it is reported that OXCO internal clock inside N10 that is linked to it's Coax and AES output proved to sound better than the (unclocked) USB out.
> 
> 
> Thanks and I will keep it in consideration.


I found the N10’s coax (CA cable no ferrites) output to work best in my system  the usb was second I did not try the AES


----------



## marcmccalmont (Apr 20, 2018)

Earlier I said I would post results of my headphone amp search. The reason for the search is I’m not 100% happy with the Focal Utopias bass plunged directly into either Hugo2 or Dave. I was using a modified Spectral dmc20 as a headphone amp but Dave is a couple orders of magnitude cleaner and you can hear the veiling but the bass is tight and articulate. I pulled out my modified Bryson BHA1, much cleaner plus tight articulate base. I got my hands on a Questyle cma800r even cleaner but sounded a bit lean with the Utopias interestingly sounded excellent with my HD800’s So the BHA1/Utopias will remain in my primary system the CMA800r/HD800’s I’ll use in my secondary system both excellent solutions


----------



## minibox

marcmccalmont said:


> Earlier I said I would post results of my headphone amp search. The reason for the search is I’m not 100% happy with the Focal Utopias bass plunged directly into either Hugo2 or Dave. I was using a modified Spectral dmc20 as a headphone amp but Dave is a couple orders of magnitude cleaner and you can hear the veiling but the bass is tight and articulate. I pulled out my modified Bryson BHA1 and much cleaner plus tight articulate base. I got my hands on a Questyle cma800r even cleaner but sounded a bit lean with the Utopias interestingly sounded excellent with my HD800’s So the BHA1/Utopias will remain in my primary system the CMC800r/HD800’s I’ll use in my secondary system both excellent solutions


Have you heard your utopia’s with a Dave -> Eddie Current Zana Deux? At our last headphone mini meet I tried this combo and it was my favorite pairing.


----------



## marcmccalmont

minibox said:


> Have you heard your utopia’s with a Dave -> Eddie Current Zana Deux? At our last headphone mini meet I tried this combo and it was my favorite pairing.


No I’m not familiar with that amp? Which other amps did you audition?


----------



## Jawed

Triode User said:


> I have never seen that suggested. On the contrary and as discussed Rob says the source of the RF is the MScaler circuit and this gets into the dual bnc. My personal listening tends to confirm that the faux brightness and detail associated with RF is there just the same whether from CD playback on the Blu2 or whether streamed to Blu2 via usb.


More than one person has commented on the Blu 2 thread that they discovered that USB sounded bad by comparison with CD replay and then spent a lot of effort to get USB to sound as good as CD replay.

I'm not suggesting that CD replay doesn't need help from ferrites. Merely that RF problems encountered with CD replay are far less than those encountered with USB playback via Blu 2.



Em2016 said:


> I was actively listening for the differences Rob has mentioned that battery powered USB source edges optical in terms of flow and focus... I couldn't hear it ! I really wanted to hear those differences too to give me an excuse to keep the microRendu !!


I'm fairly sure you're wrong in attributing this to Rob and that it's not his current opinion. He is quite categorical now: optical is the reference and USB, at best, can merely equal it.



> 3. Leakage currents (and their effects and associated RF effects) getting into the Dave are bad. I think Rob has used the term fungus somewhere before.


No, Rob has said that RF is like fungus.



Triode User said:


> Well, you might know better than Rob Watts but even in a YMMV situation I think I would go for USB rather than AES into Dave. I doubt that the cables themselves would tilt the balance in favour of AES but it would be interesting to get your feedback.


AES and USB are both differential signal standards, though USB has more connections because of the requirement to provide power.

The problem with AES is that pin 1 is often connected to the cable's shield at both ends. This means that RF noise in the source is transmitted into the destination.

A correctly built AES cable has nothing connected to pin 1 at the destination end. I'm pretty sure that such an AES cable will sound vastly better into DAVE because many people have reported that a cable built this way sounds much better into other DACs. These reports go back about 20 years. I'm not aware of anyone having tried such a cable with DAVE, so it's only a supposition for the time being.



minibox said:


> It still doesn’t do what great vinyl can do but I am shocked by the layers of detail and realism.


Vinyl is awful. If BluDave isn't trampling all over it, you have something really wrong in your setup. You should probably sell BluDAVE and invest in a Nakamichi cassette deck as a second source to your vinyl.

Now playing: Phoebe Bridgers - Smoke Signals


----------



## minibox

Vinyl is awful. If BluDave isn't trampling all over it, you have something really wrong in your setup. You should probably sell BluDAVE and invest in a Nakamichi cassette deck as a second source to your vinyl.
I respect your opinion but I challenge you to get out and listen to quality vinyl. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## minibox

Jawed said:


> More than one person has commented on the Blu 2 thread that they discovered that USB sounded bad by comparison with CD replay and then spent a lot of effort to get USB to sound as good as CD replay.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that CD replay doesn't need help from ferrites. Merely that RF problems encountered with CD replay are far less than those encountered with USB playback via Blu 2.
> 
> ...


Btw- vinyl is the reference that the blu/dave is aspiring to.


----------



## minibox

Jawed said:


> More than one person has commented on the Blu 2 thread that they discovered that USB sounded bad by comparison with CD replay and then spent a lot of effort to get USB to sound as good as CD replay.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that CD replay doesn't need help from ferrites. Merely that RF problems encountered with CD replay are far less than those encountered with USB playback via Blu 2.
> 
> ...


I gather you value RW’s opinion so I’ll quote him. It seems he values good vinyl and that’s what got him into digital to analogue conversion. I’ve thanked him through hard earned cash. I know I wouldn’t be enjoying my digital source had it not been for his genius and effort.
“I could not believe how good direct cut LP’s sounded.” 
Perhaps Rob should abandon his Davina project since “vinyl (an analog source) is awful.”


----------



## tunes

minibox said:


> I gather you value RW’s opinion so I’ll quote him. It seems he values good vinyl and that’s what got him into digital to analogue conversion. I’ve thanked him through hard earned cash. I know I wouldn’t be enjoying my digital source had it not been for his genius and effort.
> “I could not believe how good direct cut LP’s sounded.”
> Perhaps Rob should abandon his Davina project since “vinyl (an analog source) is awful.”





What is the purpose of changing the phase to pos or neg.  Does it affect only speakers or also headphones?


----------



## Triode User

Jawed said:


> AES and USB are both differential signal standards, though USB has more connections because of the requirement to provide power.
> 
> The problem with AES is that pin 1 is often connected to the cable's shield at both ends. This means that RF noise in the source is transmitted into the destination.
> 
> A correctly built AES cable has nothing connected to pin 1 at the destination end. I'm pretty sure that such an AES cable will sound vastly better into DAVE because many people have reported that a cable built this way sounds much better into other DACs. These reports go back about 20 years. I'm not aware of anyone having tried such a cable with DAVE, so it's only a supposition for the time being.



What you say is interesting but can you have a go with this into Dave and then report back? I do have a source with aes output but I would have to get or make an aes cable.


----------



## doraymon

doraymon said:


> While waiting the D-Day (DAVE-Day, tomorrow!) I'm wondering if my SOtM sMS-200ultra and tX-USBultra upstream the DAVE would be better used in the "For Sale" section of this forum...
> In my previous system they served well in cleaning the USB signal being input to the DAC, but from what I read with the DAVE they would just be another potential source of common mode noise!
> 
> Yes, I will do tests and decide with my ears but any "theoretical" comment would be much appreciated.
> ...





Rob Watts said:


> USB is best; AES EBU is a joke standard, not intended for high data rates, and was simply because studios had XLR's and lots of cable around. Forget about external clocks, they will either make it sound worse (more electronics = more RF noise) or have no effect; the crucial clock is the one located within Dave a few mm away from the pulse array flip-flops.


I guess this answers my question...


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 21, 2018)

Jawed said:


> A correctly built AES cable has nothing connected to pin 1 at the destination end.



http://www.rane.com/note110.html

*The Absolute Best Right Way To Do It*
The method specified by AES48 is to use balanced lines and _tie the cable shield to the metal chassis (right where it enters the chassis) *at both ends of the cable*_*.*

I don't have access to AES docs and wouldn't even understand most of it anyway.

Cable shielding (done well) is a complex thing:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...c-power-cables/?do=findComment&comment=659092


----------



## Triode User

Em2016 said:


> http://www.rane.com/note110.html
> 
> *The Absolute Best Right Way To Do It*
> The method specified by AES48 is to use balanced lines and _tie the cable shield to the metal chassis (right where it enters the chassis) *at both ends of the cable*_*.*
> ...



I am sorry but my experiments with shielding power cables directly contradict the claim in that link that it has to be grounded at both ends in order to work as a shield. 

Whilst on the matter of shields though, some very well known cable manufacturers claim their cables are shielded even though the shield has no ground at all. That is similar to the chocolate teapot.


----------



## flyte3333

Triode User said:


> I am sorry but my experiments with shielding power cables directly contradict the claim in that link that it has to be grounded at both ends in order to work as a shield.
> 
> Whilst on the matter of shields though, some very well known cable manufacturers claim their cables are shielded even though the shield has no ground at all. That is similar to the chocolate teapot.



Yes as per the John Swenson post I also linked, he also shares how the shields don't need to be connected at each end, to be effective

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...er-cables/?page=9&tab=comments#comment-659092


----------



## Jawed

minibox said:


> I gather you value RW’s opinion


Yes. You should search for what he's written about what his goal is. It's certainly not the sound of vinyl.



Triode User said:


> What you say is interesting but can you have a go with this into Dave and then report back? I do have a source with aes output but I would have to get or make an aes cable.


I think my Audio Synthesis transport has an AES output. But it's in storage.



Em2016 said:


> http://www.rane.com/note110.html
> 
> *The Absolute Best Right Way To Do It*
> The method specified by AES48 is to use balanced lines and _tie the cable shield to the metal chassis (right where it enters the chassis) *at both ends of the cable*_*.*


It's an excellent page.



> The fact that many modern day installers still follow this one-end-only rule with consistent success indicates this and other acceptable solutions to RF issues exist, though the increasing use of digital and wireless technology greatly increases the possibility of future RF problems.


The problem is that modern XLRs in modern hi-fi connect pin 1 to signal 0V. This is why there's so much written about the "pin 1 problem":

http://pin1problem.com/

This page shows why and how this is all such a mess:

http://www.rane.com/note151.html

Now playing: Kiasmos - Lit


----------



## Triode User (Apr 21, 2018)

Em2016 said:


> Yes as per the John Swenson post I also linked, he also shares how the shields don't need to be connected at each end, to be effective
> 
> https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...er-cables/?page=9&tab=comments#comment-659092



This is OT but my reading of that post is that John Swenson is very clearly recommending that cable shields DO NEED to be connected to ground at both ends of the shield to be effective. That is exactly the opposite of my experience and measurements which is that for all practical purposes a ground at one end of the shield normally provides sufficient efficiency of the shielding. The creation of a ground loop by connecting the shield at both ends is in my view more of an issue and outweighs a possible advantage of the shield being connected to ground at both ends.


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 21, 2018)

Triode User said:


> my reading of that post is that John Swenson is very clearly recommending that cable shields DO NEED to be connected to ground at both ends of the shield to be effective.



In the post I linked:

_"So some ramifications of this: The traditional "connect the shield to one end and let the other end float" is not good, it does not allow a loop so shielding does not happen very well. If you add the external wire connected to the shield at both ends, then *you CAN connect one or both sides of the shield to the signal ground or some other ground, but you don't NEED to for effective shielding. You will find that in many cases leaving the shield completely disconnected from the rest of the circuit is the best way to go, you get the benefit of properly working shielding without any interaction of the shield with your system.* "_

It's one of those posts that I find needs to be read carefully and slowly a few times. Or maybe I'm just a little slow !


----------



## marcmccalmont (Apr 21, 2018)

minibox said:


> Btw- vinyl is the reference that the blu/dave is aspiring to.


A good friend of mine has a SME 30 setup very expensive and world class!
I think all sources analog and digital should aspire to recreate live unamplified music, live performances and recorded media as accurately as possible, pitch timbre prat 3D imaging etc


----------



## minibox

Jawed said:


> Yes. You should search for what he's written about what his goal is. It's certainly not the sound of vinyl.


You are correct. His goal is to recreate live music. If you love music and value its accurate reproduction then you are doing yourself a disservice by writing off good vinyl. I agree with you that some of it sounds bad, but a well recorded lp is my preference over digital and I am not in the minority. I hope you’ll give your ears a little more experience and listen to a good rig. 

“Well I hope that in your tests that the DAC to sound most like analog, that Hugo came last.

Analog (that is analog reel to reel recording) sounds soft, with muddled overblown bass, poor instrument separation, with audible noise and distortion. Now it is more pleasant than conventional digital, but it is still far removed from the real reference - not analog sound, not digital sound, but the sound one hears from live un-amplified acoustic instruments. I get the distinct impression that some designers are trying to re-create analog, not the sound of live music. Now if that is what you want, then that's fine by me. But don't tell me which is more accurate or realistic. Indeed, one of the DAC's you so enthuse over has been measured with very poor performance, exactly like a reel to reel.”
“The intent is not to re-create analog sound; as vinyl sounds nothing like real unamplified music. The intent is to re-create the sound of unamplified music, and DSD singularly fails and will always fail to do this, as the format is not transparent.”


----------



## doraymon

Finally...


----------



## STR-1

marcmccalmont said:


> It’s nice to see people trying the Pangea’s and hearing positive results!


I see this cable mentioned a lot but I don’t think there is an option for the UK.  Happy to learn differently.


----------



## marcmccalmont

STR-1 said:


> I see this cable mentioned a lot but I don’t think there is an option for the UK.  Happy to learn differently.


I’ve seen them with UK 220v plugs or at least the 3 prong European plugs


----------



## delirium

doraymon said:


> Finally...


How long did you wait for your dave?


----------



## doraymon

delirium said:


> How long did you wait for your dave?


A bit more than a month.
No stock available in any of the retailers around, including the importer itself.


----------



## delirium

doraymon said:


> A bit more than a month.
> No stock available in any of the retailers around, including the importer itself.


Where are you located? I am from Norway. And have bin waiting for 7 weaks now. Sorry my english


----------



## Phronesis

I splurged and bought the DF Red for $200, thinking it would be plenty good.  But I kept seeing the glowing reviews for Mojo, so I decided to spend another $500 to make sure I had something really good; it does sound better to me than the Red.  That got me thinking that Chord was onto something, so I tried the Hugo 2, and was surprised that it sounds noticeably "better" than the Mojo, so another $2700 was spent.  Now I'm wondering how far this Chord magic goes, so my question to you all is how much better is the Dave than Hugo 2, and in what ways is it better?  Spending over $10K on something like this seems a bit crazy, but those prior purchases seemed indulgent too ...


----------



## doraymon

Reporting back after the first 3 hours with my new DAVE.
I will skip the part you Dave owners already know about the jaw dropping effect of Dave's realism and unbelievable detail.
After a few hours Dave already owns me...

A few immediate impressions:
- The benefit of using Dave's headphone amp section instead of an external one is evident, at least in my setup. It was not so with Hugo and, even if to a lesser extent, Hugo2.
- A quick comparison between direct USB connection with the MacMini (UpTone modded) and the "streaming configuration" (sMS-200 network player + tXUSBultra USB decrapifier) did not show significant differences. These are minimal and require critical listening attention with A/B comparison to be spotted. In average I found myself liking more the direct connection.
- I am impressed with how the Dave is able to deliver this breathtaking level of detail without a hint of harshness in the highs. I am talking miracle here. Never heard before!

Questions:
- The units runs super hot already after a few hours of use. Is that normal?
- I noticed apparently random blackouts of the display, for say 1 second every few minutes. It seem to happen more often after I play with the Dave's settings. Is that a known issue?
- Switching between PCM and DSD is not as immediate as changing other options. It requires a longer press of the button. Anyone else has noticed this?

Thanks guys.


----------



## doraymon

Phronesis said:


> how much better is the Dave than Hugo 2


I owned both.
Dave is not in a different league, it's playing a different sport from a different planet...
Detail level is breathtaking, in live recordings you can hear things you did not know existed.
The overall realism and "immersion" effect is not comparable to Hugo2.


----------



## miketlse

doraymon said:


> - I noticed apparently random blackouts of the display, for say 1 second every few minutes. It seem to happen more often after I play with the Dave's settings. Is that a known issue?


I think it is normal, based on this post.


----------



## JaZZ

doraymon said:


> Questions:
> - The units runs super hot already after a few hours of use. Is that normal?
> - I noticed apparently random blackouts of the display, for say 1 second every few minutes. It seem to happen more often after I play with the Dave's settings. Is that a known issue?
> - Switching between PCM and DSD is not as immediate as changing other options. It requires a longer press of the button. Anyone else has noticed this?
> ...


Welcome to the club!

All is normal. I wouldn't call it hot, as you can still touch it. The display goes out a few seconds after changing the settings, even the volume. Yes, going from PCM to DSD and vice versa takes a longer pressing.


----------



## doraymon

JaZZ said:


> Welcome to the club!
> 
> All is normal. I wouldn't call it hot, as you can still touch it. The display goes out a few seconds after changing the settings, even the volume. Yes, going from PCM to DSD and vice versa takes a longer pressing.


That's why I love this community...
All points answered in less than 30 minutes!
Thanks for the welcome and I'm sure I will post a couple of more questions tomorrow.

Now playing: Tom Waits "Hoist That Rag"


----------



## delirium

Jawed said:


> More than one person has commented on the Blu 2 thread that they discovered that USB sounded bad by comparison with CD replay and then spent a lot of effort to get USB to sound as good as CD replay.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that CD replay doesn't need help from ferrites. Merely that RF problems encountered with CD replay are far less than those encountered with USB playback via Blu 2.
> 
> ...


----------



## delirium

Jawed said:


> More than one person has commented on the Blu 2 thread that they discovered that USB sounded bad by comparison with CD replay and then spent a lot of effort to get USB to sound as good as CD replay.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that CD replay doesn't need help from ferrites. Merely that RF problems encountered with CD replay are far less than those encountered with USB playback via Blu 2.
> 
> ...


So what you are saying is that i can sell my isoregen and lps-1 and hook up optical to my computer that run on batteries and thats better?


----------



## Jawed

delirium said:


> So what you are saying is that i can sell my isoregen and lps-1 and hook up optical to my computer that run on batteries and thats better?


DAVE comes with a 1m optical cable. Disconnect all other inputs from DAVE and just use the optical.

If it sounds better then, yeah, sell the spaghetti (Regen and LPS-1). Optical is best even if the computer is running from mains power.

If you plan to buy Blu 2 (to get the M scaler technology, 1 million taps!), you might want to keep the spaghetti, because Blu 2 doesn't have an an optical input, only USB and BNC SPDIF. 

Chord might release another product that has M scaler technology to feed into DAVE, and that might have an optical input. But who knows.

I think a USB cable with lots of ferrites is preferable to spaghetti. With enough ferrites it results in the same sound quality as optical, even if the computer is mains powered.  See my signature.

In theory a battery powered computer with a USB connection to DAVE doesn't need ferrites and will not benefit from the spaghetti that you have.

Some people like the sound quality of a spaghetti solution, preferring it to the sound of optical. With just a little RF noise getting into DAVE there can be a subtle kind of sharp, zingy quality in the sound, which can be attractive.

Now playing: Nil Ciuró - Doom


----------



## delirium

Thanks. I will try it the keep it simple stupid way..i will test optical and usb without the spagetti..thanks..now i wait for dave..over 7 weaks wait now...........


----------



## Emerald Core

delirium said:


> Thanks. I will try it the keep it simple stupid way..i will test optical and usb without the spagetti..thanks..now i wait for dave..over 7 weaks wait now...........


 
Welcome to the waiting bandwagon. I am on the 4th week of a 'Black' Chord Dave order. I have also ordered an Aurender N10 streamer. There goes $16,000 for a totl front-end.


----------



## Jawed

delirium said:


> Thanks. I will try it the keep it simple stupid way..i will test optical and usb without the spagetti..thanks..now i wait for dave..over 7 weaks wait now...........


I waited 12 weeks, 15 months ago, for my black DAVE. I could have walked out of the shop with a silver DAVE.


----------



## delirium

Emerald Core said:


> Welcome to the waiting bandwagon. I am on the 4th week of a 'Black' Chord Dave order. I have also ordered an Aurender N10 streamer. There goes $16,000 for a totl front-end.


Nice....impressions to come then...?


----------



## Emerald Core

That will depend on when they arrive. I've got to order AQ Thunder PCs for both and then fix them on stillpoints. Impressions better be "the girlfriend experience" level


----------



## delirium

Jawed said:


> I waited 12 weeks, 15 months ago, for my black DAVE. I could have walked out of the shop with a silver DAVE.


So it takes longer for a black dave?


----------



## delirium

Emerald Core said:


> That will depend on when they arrive. I've got to order AQ Thunder PCs for both and then fix them on stillpoints. Impressions better be "the girlfriend experience" level


----------



## rayl

delirium said:


> So it takes longer for a black dave?



Amazing new study reveals that Black Swans evolved into Black DAVEs and then into Black Blu2s....

Does make one wonder why production doesn't just shift to more black units. (or -- maybe I shouldn't mention it -- add an upcharge for black!)

Last Oct, in N. America, black DAVEs were quoted at 6 wks (came in 4.5 for me) and Silver within a week (i.e. in stock at distributor).

This past Jan, black Blu 2s were quoted at 12 wks (mine came in a bit over 10).  I didn't ask for about Silver as I already had a black DAVE, though I did see a report of someone in the U.S. finding a Silver at a dealer for walk-in pick-up.


----------



## miketlse

Jawed said:


> I waited 12 weeks, 15 months ago, for my black DAVE. I could have walked out of the shop with a silver DAVE.


Brought a smile to my face.
When I was ordering my Hugo2, I was planning to order a black one, but the silver version was offered at a good discount.
I reflected on the offer, and realised that my AV amp was silver, my Arcam amp was silver, my 40 year old amp was silver, and the only black equipment that I had was my Mojo.
So I ordered the silver Hugo2.
I don't regret my decision.
It is amazing how much the equipment colour can influence ones decisions.
I was getting interested in the launch of the Qutest, but then it was announced that it would be black only, when i was potentially interested in only silver.
So I passed on the Qutest, but nearly all the posts say that it has turned out to be a great dac.
I am not criticising anyone, the choice of equipment colour can be very personal, and impacted by the other AV equipment colour, the room colour, etc.


----------



## delirium

rayl said:


> Amazing new study reveals that Black Swans evolved into Black DAVEs and then into Black Blu2s....
> 
> Does make one wonder why production doesn't just shift to more black units. (or -- maybe I shouldn't mention it -- add an upcharge for black!)
> 
> ...


I orderd black!!! I guess i will get extra magic then...lol...and extra wait..........


----------



## tunes (Apr 21, 2018)

What is the purpose of changing the phase to pos or neg.  Does it affect only speakers or also head phones!
 Thanks


----------



## ecwl

I sometimes wonder if we need a separate thread on black vs silver DAVE/Blu2/Hugo2
I think given how much money is spent on these devices, it is reasonable for the consumer to get to choose the color they want to match the rest of their gear... As to why supply is not matching demand, that's always hard to know. Black or silver, they're all beautifully made.


----------



## Emerald Core

Quick question,

So I bought a 64audio U18T as a new collection to try on the Dave and a daily driver on the go. Has anyone experience pairing IEMs with Dave ?

I am curious how IEMs scale with top end electronics.


----------



## x RELIC x (Apr 22, 2018)

Emerald Core said:


> Quick question,
> 
> So I bought a 64audio U18T as a new collection to try on the Dave and a daily driver on the go. Has anyone experience pairing IEMs with Dave ?
> 
> I am curious how IEMs scale with top end electronics.



I’ve used the JH Angie, Noble K10 (custom), and LCD-i4 with the DAVE.

The way I see it is the more capable the IEM / headphone then the better it can reveal the source gear feeding them. I don’t see IEM’s / headphones as the things that scale in a system as their potential to be great (or not so great) is always there, but it’s the source gear that scales. The IEMs / headphones _reveal_. If the IEM / headphone isn’t that good it won’t matter as much what you feed them.

I’d place my IEMs in this order... LCD-i4 > K10 > JH Angie no matter what feeds them. By the way, the LCD-i4 reminds me of the Focal Utopia headphones for speed and dynamics with Chord gear.


----------



## nogi replicant (Apr 22, 2018)

As a Hugo 2 and LCDi4 and Utopia user I decided to demo the Dave on Friday as I am considering my next audio purchase. Was thinking maybe the Final D8000 or Abyss Phi. But for the latter (which I am yet to demo but it’s key strong points are up my alley) I would need a Ledgit amp. Was strongly considering the Moon 430 hoping it might open the soundstage of the Utopia (which is my only gripe with the Utopia) and set me up for a future Abyss purchase. But now that I have heard the Dave with my Utopia and Lazuli Ref cable I am afraid that I need to seriously start trying to scrape some coin together. Gorgeous sound.


----------



## jarnopp

tunes said:


> What is the purpose of changing the phase to pos or neg.  Does it affect only speakers or also head phones!
> Thanks



There is a discussion starting here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-413


----------



## doraymon

A few comments during my second session with DAVE.

*Ferrite*: during this second round I unleashed my "ferrite rage" over Dave's power cord (5 ferrite cores Würth 74271733S) and over the USB cable from the Macmini (15 cores, a mix of ten 74271633S and five 74271131S).
I also optimised the routing of the cables behind the cabinet and connected Dave's power cord alone to one of my two Mains Filters.

*Phase*: I can't hear any significant difference changing between positive and negative, although I admit I am enjoying the music so much that I'm not in a mood of too many A/B at the beginning of each song. The DAVE came in with Negative by default but I changed it to Positive only because in a few tracks I think I had a very slight impression of the sound being more consistent overall. But it may be Placebo kicking in...

*HF Filter*: I set it to off as it doesn't seem to have any significant effect on my tracks. I later found out that this has a more evident impact on hi sampling frequency tracks (above 192KHz) and considering that my music is mainly 44.1kHz or 96kHz my impressions kind of make sense.

*Detail*: an example of Dave's capabilities can be heard in the first couple of minutes of Amber Rubarth's "Full Moon In Paris" (Binaural+ recording, 24/96). At 0:04 there is a squeaking sound coming from the far background off stage, maybe an old wooden door opening? Later, at 1:41 I can clearly hear one of the artists (I believe Cellist Dave Eggar) softly inhaling and then releasing a whispering "Yeah..." while starting to play his first notes. From what I remember I had never heard any of this before... This song is spectacular with DAVE!

Now playing: Yo-Yo Ma playing Bach's Suite for cello No.1 in G Major, BWV 1007: Prelude


----------



## Triode User

doraymon said:


> *Ferrite*: during this second round I unleashed my "ferrite rage" over Dave's power cord (5 ferrite cores Würth 74271733S) and over the USB cable from the Macmini (15 cores, a mix of ten 74271633S and five 74271131S).



........and any thoughts?


----------



## TheAttorney

An update on my album phase tagging: the Positive phase albums now outnumber the Negative ones by over 10:1, so definitely Positive is the right default. 
I can also understand why some people may actually prefer the sound of the wrong phase, or not notice it at all.
I seem to hear the effects of absolute phase more than most, but as my source has gradually improved to give better overall sound with either phase, I now worry less about phase than I used to, which truely is a blessing .

I still feel the effect of the HF filter is marginal, and still feel that HF=OFF sounds fractionally more transparent for my solely redbook files.


----------



## doraymon (Apr 22, 2018)

Triode User said:


> ........and any thoughts?


Literally just installed them so it's too early to say but if there is any improvement it won't be night and day. So far a bit of a disappointment for the almost 100 bucks spent on the cores...
But as I wrote I am being absorbed in the music and I'm not in the mood for critical listening. Can you imagine an A/B having to remove 20 cores using a security key...?


----------



## doraymon

Is there any table with the output voltage of DAVE changing with the volume?
I'd like to check the listening levels with my Clear to avoid destroying my ears...


----------



## rayl

doraymon said:


> Is there any table with the output voltage of DAVE changing with the volume?
> I'd like to check the listening levels with my Clear to avoid destroying my ears...



My notes show that Rob had previously stated that -3dB setting is approx 6V RMS, with clipping at 13.6V RMS.  I have not measured to confirm. Also, I can't seem to find the original post, but I am assuming these were for balanced outputs.  (I forgot to write down explicitly balanced vs single-ended.)

So this means -3dB setting is approx 17.8 dBu (= 20 × log_10 (V_RMS / 0.775) ) in case your trusty RMS to dBu chart isn't handle....


----------



## Triode User

doraymon said:


> Literally just installed them so it's too early to say but if there is any improvement it won't be night and day. So far a bit of a disappointment for the almost 100 bucks spent on the cores...
> But as I wrote I am being absorbed in the music and I'm not in the mood for critical listening. Can you imagine an A/B having to remove 20 cores using a security key...?



I played with ferrites on power cords but took them all off. Admittedly they were the same as the ones targeting the rf on the Blu2 dual bnc so were unlikely to be targeting the correct frequency. Also, my power cords have earthed screens and I do not know if the ferrites work through that screen. 

I have an rf noise gadget to give an indication of rf mains noise. Neither did it show any improvement. Interestingly when I had a ps audio P10 that appeared to inject more RF noise into the mains that just using a wall socket.


----------



## Elecroestatico

x RELIC x said:


> I’ve used the JH Angie, Noble K10 (custom), and LCD-i4 with the DAVE.
> 
> The way I see it is the more capable the IEM / headphone then the better it can reveal the source gear feeding them. I don’t see IEM’s / headphones as the things that scale in a system as their potential to be great (or not so great) is always there, but it’s the source gear that scales. The IEMs / headphones _reveal_. If the IEM / headphone isn’t that good it won’t matter as much what you feed them.
> 
> I’d place my IEMs in this order... LCD-i4 > K10 > JH Angie no matter what feeds them. By the way, the LCD-i4 reminds me of the Focal Utopia headphones for speed and dynamics with Chord gear.


You are a writer! Thank you.


----------



## jrfmd

x RELIC x said:


> I’ve used the JH Angie, Noble K10 (custom), and LCD-i4 with the DAVE.
> 
> The way I see it is the more capable the IEM / headphone then the better it can reveal the source gear feeding them. I don’t see IEM’s / headphones as the things that scale in a system as their potential to be great (or not so great) is always there, but it’s the source gear that scales. The IEMs / headphones _reveal_. If the IEM / headphone isn’t that good it won’t matter as much what you feed them.
> 
> ...



fwiw:

with the dave I would rank my earphones (including my 1 iem) as
1.the shure 1500 s iem, 2.next the focal utopia, 3.next  the LCD-4 and 4 last.the sennhauser 800

Jeff


----------



## doraymon

Triode User said:


> I played with ferrites on power cords but took them all off. Admittedly they were the same as the ones targeting the rf on the Blu2 dual bnc so were unlikely to be targeting the correct frequency. Also, my power cords have earthed screens and I do not know if the ferrites work through that screen.
> 
> I have an rf noise gadget to give an indication of rf mains noise. Neither did it show any improvement. Interestingly when I had a ps audio P10 that appeared to inject more RF noise into the mains that just using a wall socket.


For the USB cable I chose ferrites targeting the 100MHz - 1GHz range having a peak around 300MHz which is the area Rob suggested to attack. But he also stated it might not make any difference which I'm afraid it's my case.
For the power cable as you did I used the same ferrites of the USB cable as the noise being targeted is the same.
I will follow up on this  in the coming sessions giving a bit more attention, let's see.

Regarding the P10 I am shocked! I always thought PS Audio had a good reputation but injecting even more noise Is not acceptable!
What is the gadget you are using to give an indication of RF noise carried by the cables?


----------



## doraymon

Brief OT, sorry...
I am trying to setup a basic A/B to compare the Dave connected to two different sources:
1) Mac Mini direct USB connection 
2) Mac Mini through ethernet feeding the network player SMS-200ULTRA

Do you think that something like THIS would work or would it completely mess up the sound quality?


----------



## elviscaprice

doraymon said:


> Brief OT, sorry...
> I am trying to setup a basic A/B to compare the Dave connected to two different sources:
> 1) Mac Mini direct USB connection
> 2) Mac Mini through ethernet feeding the network player SMS-200ULTRA
> ...



I wouldn't.  I think the difference in sound will be so great as to make it easy to distinguish the winner.


----------



## doraymon

elviscaprice said:


> I wouldn't.  I think the difference in sound will be so great as to make it easy to distinguish the winner.


You mean I shouldn't bother buying the thing and just do it manually?
If so, I'm surprised you say there will be a clear winner because from my very first tests I could not spot big differences...


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 23, 2018)

doraymon said:


> You mean I shouldn't bother buying the thing and just do it manually?
> If so, I'm surprised you say there will be a clear winner because from my very first tests I could not spot big differences...



Just to add a datapoint from my own personal and highly subjective experience. As I shared in my own observations the last few pages, I wasn’t able to hear any significant differences doing quick A/B’ing.

The listening fatigue aspects and desires to want to turn the volume up louder (or down) only revealed themselves after extended listening sessions, like an hour and more of relaxed listening, not quick A/B’ing.

But I didn’t test exactly the same setup you have and with the same music you have and it’s all subjective anyway, so it’s all very much YMMV


----------



## elviscaprice

doraymon said:


> You mean I shouldn't bother buying the thing and just do it manually?
> If so, I'm surprised you say there will be a clear winner because from my very first tests I could not spot big differences...



Shocking, I would have thought the sCLK-EX component a clear outright winner. Are you bridging to it?  Did you give it some break in time?  Are you using a good power supply?  If it's not determinable doing it manually, it isn't worth the upgrade.


----------



## TheAttorney

doraymon said:


> Is there any table with the output voltage of DAVE changing with the volume?
> I'd like to check the listening levels with my Clear to avoid destroying my ears...



Much better is to get a sound meter and measure the actual volume coming out of the headphones. Such devices start at around $15. The cheapest ones probably won't be the most accurate, but I don't think 1 or 2 dbs will make that much difference for the intended purpose of protecting your hearing. If you can afford a DAVE, you can afford a sound meter. Most have a fast/slow switch and max hold function, both very useful. This also removes the several db differences between recordings. Trying to use theory and a table is only valid if you know exactly how that relates to the loudness of the recording.


----------



## doraymon (Apr 23, 2018)

elviscaprice said:


> Are you bridging to it? Did you give it some break in time? Are you using a good power supply? If it's not determinable doing it manually, it isn't worth the upgrade.


Not sure what you mean by bridging?
Yes the sMS-200ultra and tX-USBultra chain has say around 200h on it, I was using them with my previous DAC (Holo Spring KTE L3).
The power supply used to feed bot of the above is the matching sPS-500 always from SOtM.

Edit: at the moment I don't have a real need for a networked solution to be honest, so if further tests will return the same results I will be happy to sell the whole trio.


----------



## doraymon

After a few more hours I can confirm my initial impressions of the direct USB connectIon Dave / Mac mini and the connection through SOtM network player / USB cleaner sounding extremely close.
If anything, the direct connection sounds slightly  silkier, smoother and definitely more enjoyable especially with tracks with high dynamic range.

Only for the records the USB cable used for the direct connection is an Audioquest cinnamon loaded with ferrites and the connection through network player  uses a plane set of QED Reference USB cables.
Next round I will play with the power cord as well,


----------



## yakaway (Apr 23, 2018)

I have an alienware m17r2 laptop that I run spotify and tidal to my new chord dave.  The usb cable is generic from amazon.com. I've tried other cables and encounter the same issue.

The dave runs xlr out in dac mode to my yamaha-rx-3070 pre-amp and then to my polk lsim speakers.  The left and right lsim 707s go through  a mcintosh 7300 amp. The rca's are kimber kables. The xlr's are zu mission cables.

Spotify works fantastically well, but tidal has a problem.  I get distortion in the mids. Almost like a crackle. Its subtle and not noticable all of the time.

Has anyone had such an issue?  I would of thought tidal would be better with Dave because of the HIFI source level, but I don't think the results show this.

Thoughts?


----------



## music4joy (Apr 23, 2018)

shuttlepod said:


> I have now had a Schiit Yggdrasil (Yggy) dac in-house for over ten days. During that time, I’ve listened to Yggy


Hi

I liked the review, however, it has been couple of years and things may have changed.

I am looking for a DAC and the two products I am interested is Yggy and Dave. I know its a big gap between the two in price but I have to limit the options otherwise the purchase will be on hold forever.

Has anyone compared Schiit Yggy on Analog2 with Dave given all other variables remain constant?

I read great things about Analog2 in general. So also I can easily acquire a Yggy whereas finding Dave for in-home demo is near to impossible, unless anyone here could send some pointers.  So banking on review to influence my decision.

Thx
P


----------



## yellowblue

https://www.whathifi.com/news/munich-high-end-show-2018-preview

_Chord plans to go big this Munich by unveiling a number of new products - with each one covering a distinct area of the brand’s portfolio, and one of which is (according to Chord) set to be a landmark product in the company's history._

Davina?


----------



## miketlse

yellowblue said:


> https://www.whathifi.com/news/munich-high-end-show-2018-preview
> 
> _Chord plans to go big this Munich by unveiling a number of new products - with each one covering a distinct area of the brand’s portfolio, and one of which is (according to Chord) set to be a landmark product in the company's history._
> 
> Davina?


I doubt it, but the digital amps and 2Go have been mentioned as in development for a long time, so they would be obvious candidates.
The High End show would be the right event to reveal the Hugo TT2, but there has been no hint from Chord about the TT2, so it would be wrong to regard it as more than an outside chance at present.
Chord have an extensive range of high end non-dac products, so any of these could be ripe for a revamp at the show.
So potentially several reasons to be interested, but we will only find out for sure, when the show opens.


----------



## Jawed

yakaway said:


> I have an alienware m17r2 laptop that I run spotify and tidal to my new chord dave.  The usb cable is generic from amazon.com. I've tried other cables and encounter the same issue.


Does your laptop have an optical output? If so, then DAVE comes with an optical cable and this will make a good comparison.


> Spotify works fantastically well, but tidal has a problem.  I get distortion in the mids. Almost like a crackle. Its subtle and not noticable all of the time.
> 
> Has anyone had such an issue?  I would of thought tidal would be better with Dave because of the HIFI source level, but I don't think the results show this.


Make sure you set Tidal to Exclusive mode as well as with HiFi sound quality. There is a cog next to the Digital Output (Chord Async ...) entry in the Settings for Streaming. Click on the cog and turn on all three settings (Exclusive, Force volume and Pass Through MQA). Tidal doesn't give me any hint of noises that shouldn't be there.

Also, make sure you have installed the Windows driver that matches your version of Windows from the Chord website.

The latest update of Windows 10 apparently is able to drive Chord DACs (newer than Hugo TT) even though the driver hasn't been installed. I don't think many people have tried this (I haven't).

Now playing: Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith - An Intention


----------



## Crgreen

Jawed said:


> Does your laptop have an optical output? If so, then DAVE comes with an optical cable and this will make a good comparison.
> 
> Make sure you set Tidal to Exclusive mode as well as with HiFi sound quality. There is a cog next to the Digital Output (Chord Async ...) entry in the Settings for Streaming. Click on the cog and turn on all three settings (Exclusive, Force volume and Pass Through MQA). Tidal doesn't give me any hint of noises that shouldn't be there.
> 
> ...



For what it’s worth, my experience of Tidal in Hi-Fi mode, using an Aires Mini into Dave via optical, is that MQA with software decoding only sounds rather papery and not quite right. The position using hardware decoding might very well be different, but Dave is not MQA enabled. I found the best results were using Red Book, which sounds excellent.


----------



## rayl

Jawed said:


> ...
> 
> The latest update of Windows 10 apparently is able to drive Chord DACs (newer than Hugo TT) even though the driver hasn't been installed. I don't think many people have tried this (I haven't).
> 
> Now playing: Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith - An Intention



This has been the case for some time.  I tested it back when trying to debug the soft drop-outs using Windows mixer.  Indeed, using the Windows driver, the problem did not occur.

The only issue was, as I recall, you were quite limited in what sampling rates and bit depths can be selected.


----------



## AndrewOld

yellowblue said:


> https://www.whathifi.com/news/munich-high-end-show-2018-preview
> 
> _Chord plans to go big this Munich by unveiling a number of new products - with each one covering a distinct area of the brand’s portfolio, and one of which is (according to Chord) set to be a landmark product in the company's history._
> 
> Davina?



M Scaler.


----------



## flyte3333

yellowblue said:


> _and one of which is (according to Chord) set to be a landmark product in the company's history._
> 
> Davina?



If it has an influence on the quality of recordings, Davina would indeed be their landmark product I reckon.

We’ve been told there are Chord DACs used in some studios but this would be a much bigger leap into the pro world, potentially. Guessing is fun


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> M Scaler.



I have my £5 ready but I think it’s safe.


----------



## miketlse

AndrewOld said:


> M Scaler.


Rob Watts was tight lipped just a few weeks ago. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...-official-thread.869417/page-73#post-14145021


----------



## hikaru12

So I got a DAVE for an in home trial from my local dealer and I can see why people love it with a Utopia pairing as the clarity and power/dynamism is really like being at the live event. I can picture in my mind clearly the emotion in the artist's voice. My question is for a budget option would you guys say the Hugo 2 is a worthy brother to the DAVE for almost 1/5 of the price? I plan on setting up a new two channel system w/ Omega Alnicio speakers w/ a Vidar monoblock.

I personally did not enjoy the DAVE w/ the Auteur - the Auteur gets too dynamic/bright and takes away the neutral laid back nature of it in favor of an aggressive sound albeit very realistic. I prefer this to be euphonic (Hugo 1/Hugo TT?)


----------



## Jozurr

Since I've sold my Chord DAVE DAC, I am also selling my DanaCable Source Clarifier power cable (specially made for sources) which is an excellent match for the DAVE, if anyone's interested:

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/danacable-source-clarifier-power-cable-2m.875110/


----------



## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> I have my £5 ready but I think it’s safe.



I reckon a power amp is most likely, and a Davina (though whether there is much of a pro market for a two channel ADC I don’t know..), hopefully nothing involving the software in the Poly because one train wreck is enough, some kind of M Scaler for all those eagerly waiting BNC sockets on the Qutest, Hugo2 and DAVE .. these would be landmark products. Nothing for £5 I bet.


----------



## elviscaprice (Apr 23, 2018)

hikaru12 said:


> So I got a DAVE for an in home trial from my local dealer and I can see why people love it with a Utopia pairing as the clarity and power/dynamism is really like being at the live event. I can picture in my mind clearly the emotion in the artist's voice. My question is for a budget option would you guys say the Hugo 2 is a worthy brother to the DAVE for almost 1/5 of the price? I plan on setting up a new two channel system w/ Omega Alnicio speakers w/ a Vidar monoblock.
> 
> I personally did not enjoy the DAVE w/ the Auteur - the Auteur gets too dynamic/bright and takes away the neutral laid back nature of it in favor of an aggressive sound albeit very realistic. I prefer this to be euphonic (Hugo 1/Hugo TT?)



If you going to use an external amp to drive the Omegas (which I would never do), then Hugo 2 or Quest (need preamp functions).  Drop the amp, directly drive the Omegas, will make a huge difference in resolution, add a REL for sub.  DAVE preferable but if you don't mind the sound signature of batteries then Hugo 2 is also an option.  Can always resell the Hugo 2 and upgrade if your not satisfied.


----------



## hikaru12

elviscaprice said:


> If you going to use an external amp to drive the Omegas (which I would never do), then Hugo 2 or Quest (need preamp functions).  Drop the amp, directly drive the Omegas, will make a huge difference in resolution, add a REL for sub.  DAVE preferable but if you don't mind the sound signature of batteries then Hugo 2 is also an option.  Can always resell the Hugo 2 and upgrade if your not satisfied.



That might work directly driving the Omegas as I'm also considering some Cornwalls or Heritage III's which are even more efficient.


----------



## ray-dude

hikaru12 said:


> So I got a DAVE for an in home trial from my local dealer and I can see why people love it with a Utopia pairing as the clarity and power/dynamism is really like being at the live event. I can picture in my mind clearly the emotion in the artist's voice. My question is for a budget option would you guys say the Hugo 2 is a worthy brother to the DAVE for almost 1/5 of the price? I plan on setting up a new two channel system w/ Omega Alnicio speakers w/ a Vidar monoblock.
> 
> I personally did not enjoy the DAVE w/ the Auteur - the Auteur gets too dynamic/bright and takes away the neutral laid back nature of it in favor of an aggressive sound albeit very realistic. I prefer this to be euphonic (Hugo 1/Hugo TT?)



Alas, if you have that sort of reaction to the DAVE, you'll be getting a Blu2 sooner than you suspect.  If you're considering a DAVE,. I would suggest getting a Hugo2 + Blu2 now and drive your Omega's direct with a level of magic that exceeds even the DAVE (see links below for ~20k words on why   Later, if you want more oomph to your speakers, upgrade to a DAVE and take the Hugo2 to the office or on the road with you (or wait for the future Chord digital amps to become available).

From a budget perspective, I suspect after you hear either the DAVE or Hugo2 direct to your Omegas, the Vidar will quickly go up for sale to help offset the costs (since moving to Chord DACs and my Voxativ and Omega speakers, I've sold both my Classe and Benchmark amps)  The downside is the rationalizations you'll be making to justify the $8-10k for the Blu2


----------



## xxx1313

AndrewOld said:


> M Scaler.



The digital amp is a much safer bet. Maybe even with a balanced headphone output? Personally, I have no use for this. I would much prefer a stand-alone M Scaler!


----------



## doraymon

music4joy said:


> Hi
> 
> I liked the review, however, it has been couple of years and things may have changed.
> 
> ...


Also consider a Holo Audio KTE Spring L3 sold by Kitsune Hifi (Holo Audio USA). It's in the league of Hugo2 and Yggy and it sounds fantastic.


----------



## music4joy

doraymon said:


> Also consider a Holo Audio KTE Spring L3 sold by Kitsune Hifi (Holo Audio USA). It's in the league of Hugo2 and Yggy and it sounds fantastic.


Thank you Ray for the recommendation. I have not put Hugo2 as I have not heard as many rave reviews as much Dave had. But sure will consider to include both on your list.


----------



## spotforscott

Triode User said:


> I have my £5 ready but I think it’s safe.


I have $50 cdn that says mscaler will be part of the announcement


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 23, 2018)

AndrewOld said:


> (though whether there is much of a pro market for a two channel ADC I don’t know..



True but even if Davina starts with 2-ch (we don’t know) it doesn’t need to end with 2-ch.

Plus if it’s the best performance ADC on the planet there may be opportunities in measurement tools - possibly?

Rob's future active speakers (with analogue inputs for those still need that)

Davina could open so many opportunities, landmark indeed.


----------



## doraymon

music4joy said:


> Thank you Ray for the recommendation. I have not put Hugo2 as I have not heard as many rave reviews as much Dave had. But sure will consider to include both on your list.


You haven't heard much on Hugo2 because it's predecessor Hugo (The Great) was the one initiating the revolution but Higo2 is in any way a better product.
I never heard Yggy so I can't tell, but I owe/owned Mojo, Hugo, Hugo 2, Spring KTE L3 and now Dave.
If you can afford the investment Dave is a stratosferic performer and worth the money for the emotional satisfaction its music will give you.
If you can't afford the Dave than the Spring KTE L3 would my next choice. It's extremely revealing and delivers a very realistic holographic sound for the money. A fantastic DAC, really.
Hugo2 and Yggy probably have a better residual value on the pre owned market, if that is of any importance to you.


----------



## yakaway (Apr 23, 2018)

So unfortunately, the alienware laptop does not have optical out. That would be a great option.  It is a windows 7 machine and as far as I can tell, there are no windows 7 drivers on the chord electronics site?

Windows 10 seems to be the only option I could find.

Has anyone else experienced issues specifically with tidal? I was reading that there is an issue with UMG watermark tracks on tidal? Not sure if this relates to the distortion I'm hearing when streaming music to my stereo via Dave in DAC mode.


Jawed said:


> Does your laptop have an optical output? If so, then DAVE comes with an optical cable and this will make a good comparison.
> 
> Make sure you set Tidal to Exclusive mode as well as with HiFi sound quality. There is a cog next to the Digital Output (Chord Async ...) entry in the Settings for Streaming. Click on the cog and turn on all three settings (Exclusive, Force volume and Pass Through MQA). Tidal doesn't give me any hint of noises that shouldn't be there.
> 
> ...



I'll try from a windows 10 enabled computer when time permits.
Any input is greatly appreciated.


----------



## flyte3333

Just to add to my TOSlink story (see previous few pages) - I can now personnaly confirm the Bluesound Node 2 works without drama at 24/192 (as a couple others have mentioned too).

The BluOS remote control app supports Tidal and Qobuz and Deezer and functions as a Roon Ready endpoint - a very versatile device indeed.

It looks like it may even get the Airplay 2 update when that's released later this year.

The Node 2's sound quality is really good with Dave...

So Oppo players and Bluesound Node 2 are two TOSlink 24/192kHz sources that work fine with Dave's stock TOSlink cable - no hacking at the optical cable's connector required.

My Pi2Design 502 works nicely too, if you're comfortable with DIY hardware and software.


----------



## music4joy

doraymon said:


> You haven't heard much on Hugo2 because it's predecessor Hugo (The Great) was the one initiating the revolution but Higo2 is in any way a better product.


That is precisely my point when we open the can there will be many, so I have limited my choices just to 2, what I heard the best so far based on most reviews. And this was the thread I have come across that talks about both in my consideration, of course a bit outdated 

If I have to choose a DAC from Chord obviously my first pick will be Dave so Hugo is not in the top list unless I am constrained. Regarding  Spring KTE L3 they are currently closed for new sales, also it will likely be next after the top 2.  This is not to offend anyone but like I said there are plenty and I have to first find the top 2 in my list not the options to open for the others.


----------



## minibox

hikaru12 said:


> So I got a DAVE for an in home trial from my local dealer and I can see why people love it with a Utopia pairing as the clarity and power/dynamism is really like being at the live event. I can picture in my mind clearly the emotion in the artist's voice. My question is for a budget option would you guys say the Hugo 2 is a worthy brother to the DAVE for almost 1/5 of the price? I plan on setting up a new two channel system w/ Omega Alnicio speakers w/ a Vidar monoblock.
> 
> I personally did not enjoy the DAVE w/ the Auteur - the Auteur gets too dynamic/bright and takes away the neutral laid back nature of it in favor of an aggressive sound albeit very realistic. I prefer this to be euphonic (Hugo 1/Hugo TT?)


I own a Hugo 2 and dave. I have my blu2 hooked up with the dave. Hugo 2 paired with blu2 is better than Dave alone imho. Chances are that chord will be releasing a standalone mscaler that will in all likelihood be cheaper than blu2. You could wait until the Munich announcement, then make a decision. Might save you some pennies.


----------



## hikaru12

minibox said:


> I own a Hugo 2 and dave. I have my blu2 hooked up with the dave. Hugo 2 paired with blu2 is better than Dave alone imho. Chances are that chord will be releasing a standalone mscaler that will in all likelihood be cheaper than blu2. You could wait until the Munich announcement, then make a decision. Might save you some pennies.



Thanks for your impressions, since there might be some new products being released I'll hold out for now.


----------



## elviscaprice (Apr 23, 2018)

The m scaler will be a far larger driver of sales for all Chord capable DAC's, if priced reasonable.  The potential of this upgrade will be huge.  Distancing Chord from the competition, like a gap in a canyon.

As far as Davina, an ADC.   Yeah, new nich market for chord, professional studios.  Why would you use an ADC in a speaker?  I get the DAC/amp being built into the speaker/digital only or bypass allowing analog thru? 
Fact is, most companies don't want to spend the money on building and development of ADC's because of it's small market size potential.


----------



## elviscaprice (Apr 23, 2018)

doraymon said:


> If you can't afford the Dave than the Spring KTE L3 would my next choice. It's extremely revealing and delivers a very realistic holographic sound for the money. A fantastic DAC, really.
> Hugo2 and Yggy probably have a better residual value on the pre owned market, if that is of any importance to you.



Your missing the main point here.  You can't directly drive efficient speakers with those other non Chord DAC's.  A huge disadvantage, in terms of resolution,  if you ask me and one of the main reasons I remain in the Chord family. 
Thus actually the price of the Hugo 2 or even DAVE is not so bad when you factor in your getting 3 or 4 in 1.  DAC/Pre-amp/Amp/headphone amp 
When all this is taken into consideration it's no contest, Chord all the way. 
Now throw in the m-scaler for upgrade, over the top, see ya.


----------



## doraymon

elviscaprice said:


> Your missing the main point here.  You can't directly drive efficient speakers with those other non Chord DAC's.  A huge disadvantage, in terms of resolution,  if you ask me and one of the main reasons I remain in the Chord family.
> Thus actually the price of the Hugo 2 or even DAVE is not so bad when you factor in your getting 3 or 4 in 1.  DAC/Pre-amp/Amp/headphone amp
> When all this is taken into consideration it's no contest, Chord all the way.
> Now throw in the m-scaler for upgrade, over the top, see ya.


I missed the point of the additional benefits of a headphone amp, preamp? Yes, I'll give you that.
Is that the main point? Not for me.
With Hugo and Hugo2 I did prefer the sound with the addition of a good headphone amp. I know many will disagree but that's my taste...
With Dave is a different story altogether, the drop of transparency using an amp is huge. It took me 24 hours after receiving Dave to pack my amp and put it for sale(you can check in the for sale section).
Driving speakers for me it's not a necessity.
I just gave the guy my own preference not the absolute truth.
Isn't it all we can do?


----------



## flyte3333

elviscaprice said:


> Why would you use an ADC in a speaker?



Just have a look at active speakers out there at the moment. Most have analogue inputs. 

It won't always be like this of course. At some point the analogue inputs will be dropped.


----------



## Jawed

yakaway said:


> It is a windows 7 machine and as far as I can tell, there are no windows 7 drivers on the chord electronics site?
> 
> Windows 10 seems to be the only option I could find.


Chord has tidied-up the DAVE page.

Luckily, the Mojo page has the Windows 7 driver still:

http://www.chordmojo.com/support/#driver

And this driver is compatible with DAVE, Mojo and later DACs. There are 3 links there, two of them imply they are for February 2018. It sort of implies that the Windows 10 driver (on the right) has also been updated recently. 

The link on the left is what you want!

Now playing: Niklas Paschburg - Ulenflucht


----------



## Emerald Core

Hello guys.

1- Has anyone tried Auralic Taurus MkII headamp with Dave? or is Dave good enough alone? 
2- Is Focal Clear/LCDX level headphones able to bring the best of Dave? or should i move to Utopia/LCD4 level?

I appreciate owner's opinions. 
thanks


----------



## x RELIC x

Emerald Core said:


> Hello guys.
> 
> 1- Has anyone tried Auralic Taurus MkII headamp with Dave? or is Dave good enough alone?
> 2- Is Focal Clear/LCDX level headphones able to bring the best of Dave? or should i move to Utopia/LCD4 level?
> ...



1. DAVE alone

2. The better the headphone then the more of DAVE’s capabilities you can appreciate. Get the best you can within your budget for the DAVE.


----------



## MacedonianHero

hikaru12 said:


> So I got a DAVE for an in home trial from my local dealer and I can see why people love it with a Utopia pairing as the clarity and power/dynamism is really like being at the live event. I can picture in my mind clearly the emotion in the artist's voice. My question is for a budget option would you guys say the Hugo 2 is a worthy brother to the DAVE for almost 1/5 of the price? I plan on setting up a new two channel system w/ Omega Alnicio speakers w/ a Vidar monoblock.
> 
> I personally did not enjoy the DAVE w/ the Auteur - the Auteur gets too dynamic/bright and takes away the neutral laid back nature of it in favor of an aggressive sound albeit very realistic. I prefer this to be euphonic (Hugo 1/Hugo TT?)



I'm lucky to own both and while the DAVE is the absolute best I've heard the Utopias sound, the Hugo 2 does a marvellous job with them as well!!!


----------



## marcmccalmont (Apr 25, 2018)

Emerald Core said:


> Hello guys.
> 
> 1- Has anyone tried Auralic Taurus MkII headamp with Dave? or is Dave good enough alone?
> 2- Is Focal Clear/LCDX level headphones able to bring the best of Dave? or should i move to Utopia/LCD4 level?
> ...


I’m really happy with my Utopias. I had to add my modified Bryston BHA1 to tighten up the bass to my liking
With the Utopias Dave driving them direct sounds like a ported speaker through the BHA1 like a critically damped sealed box speaker (my preference) the Utopias don’t take a lot of power to play loud because they are fairly efficient but they do need a lot of current to control the bass.


----------



## doraymon

5 days with my Dave and unless my brain/ears are fried completely the sound is changing slightly,
Also I have the impression that Dave likes to be heated up an hour or so to deliver its best.
I kept on comparing straight USB from Mac Mini with signal through SOtM network player and usb cleaner and the results seem to vary with the track...
Am I having burn in visions or is this possible?


----------



## Triode User

doraymon said:


> 5 days with my Dave and unless my brain/ears are fried completely the sound is changing slightly,
> Also I have the impression that Dave likes to be heated up an hour or so to deliver its best.
> I kept on comparing straight USB from Mac Mini with signal through SOtM network player and usb cleaner and the results seem to vary with the track...
> Am I having burn in visions or is this possible?



For me, the major element of burn in for a product like Dave is the brain recalibrating to the new sound. Others might have their own view. 

There is any easy way to cope with a one hour pre listen switch on and that is just to leave it on all the time.


----------



## minibox

doraymon said:


> 5 days with my Dave and unless my brain/ears are fried completely the sound is changing slightly,
> Also I have the impression that Dave likes to be heated up an hour or so to deliver its best.
> I kept on comparing straight USB from Mac Mini with signal through SOtM network player and usb cleaner and the results seem to vary with the track...
> Am I having burn in visions or is this possible?


I'm a believer in keeping Dave on, as a warmed up dac sounds better to my ears. Other companies, such as Berkeley, suggest this approach as well. Their Alpha dac series 2 doesn't even have an on/off switch. 
To my ears, the blu2 cd player is a far superior source than my Aurender n100. I've done an A/B many times and, in all cases, the cd is better. 
Although I'm a believer in the benefits of a good burn in, I believe RW mentioned that burn in includes our brains adjusting to the new sound.


----------



## miketlse

Triode User said:


> For me, the major element of burn in for a product like Dave is the brain recalibrating to the new sound. Others might have their own view.
> 
> There is any easy way to cope with a one hour pre listen switch on and that is just to leave it on all the time.


Maybe partially OT but I will try and provide an analogy.
This analogy can easily apply to new drivers, or drivers who switch countries.
As a car driver who switched from driving in UK, to driving in France:

Initially driving required a lot of conscious concentration, for instance approaching a roundabout, then apply brakes, select gear, apply brakes to slow down, signal direction, turn wheel, etc
after about 3000 km I realised that I was again doing this subsconciously. Ok I decide consciously that I want to turn, but the rest of the activity is dealt with subconsciously
To me this transfer of initially thinking consciously, thinking subconsciously is predicted in the book 'Thinking fast, Thinking slow'.
I read some of the posts on Head-Fi regarding 'burn in' and think that they demonstrate the switch from initially processing music consciously, to processing the music sub-consciously.

The 'downside' of this transfer of processing from conscious to subconscious, is that what sounded cutting-edge, becomes the new baseline.
The brain is then ready for the next piece of AV equipment that provides the next level of audio performance.


----------



## marcmccalmont

minibox said:


> I'm a believer in keeping Dave on, as a warmed up dac sounds better to my ears. Other companies, such as Berkeley, suggest this approach as well. Their Alpha dac series 2 doesn't even have an on/off switch.
> To my ears, the blu2 cd player is a far superior source than my Aurender n100. I've done an A/B many times and, in all cases, the cd is better.
> Although I'm a believer in the benefits of a good burn in, I believe RW mentioned that burn in includes our brains adjusting to the new sound.


My N10 spdif coax output with Clearer Audio coax sounds the same as the Blu2 drive. It’s usb output comes close but never quite gets there. My N100h is a good match for my Hugo2 I found the wireworld starlight 7 usb cable to work well in that application


----------



## minibox

marcmccalmont said:


> My N10 spdif coax output with Clearer Audio coax sounds the same as the Blu2 drive. It’s usb output comes close but never quite gets there. My N100h is a good match for my Hugo2 I found the wireworld starlight 7 usb cable to work well in that application


I've been considering the n10 and the sotm trifecta. The sotm gear would be considerably less. My two gripes with the n10 are the cost and the inability to upsample via blu2.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Apr 25, 2018)

minibox said:


> I've been considering the n10 and the sotm trifecta. The sotm gear would be considerably less. My two gripes with the n10 are the cost and the inability to upsample via blu2.


I don’t understand “the inability to upsample via Blu2”? My N10 is connected to Blu2 via spdif coax and Blu2 automatically upsamples via dual coax to Dave, sounds superb!   If you like your N100h you’ll love the N10 the coax output is superb!


----------



## minibox (Apr 25, 2018)

marcmccalmont said:


> I don’t understand “the inability to upsample via Blu2”? My N10 is connected to Blu2 via spdif coax and Blu2 automatically upsamples via dual coax to Dave, sounds superb!   If you like your N100h you’ll love the N10 the coax output is superb!


If I did aes or coax out of the n10 vs usb out. Sorry for neglecting to mention that. Am I right in assuming that I cannot get the full upsampling capability if I do anything other than usb out or am I wrong?


----------



## marcmccalmont (Apr 25, 2018)

minibox said:


> If I did aes or coax out of the n10 vs usb out. Sorry for neglecting to mention that. Am I right in assuming that I cannot get the full upsampling capability if I do anything other than usb out or am I wrong?


No all inputs to Blu2 do full upsampling!
It does take the dual coax to max the upsampling to Dave


----------



## minibox

marcmccalmont said:


> No all inputs to Blu2 do full upsampling!
> It does take the dual coax to max the upsampling to Dave


Thanks! That is huge for me. Do you consider the n10 a considerable upgrade from the n100 that only has usb out?


----------



## marcmccalmont

minibox said:


> Thanks! That is huge for me. Do you consider the n10 a considerable upgrade from the n100 that only has usb out?


It is a noticeable upgrade with Blu2/Dave not so much with Hugo2


----------



## Emerald Core (Apr 26, 2018)

You guys are getting me excited about my Dave + N10 order. I will go the AES route as it is preferred by some over Coax.

Cables ordered along:
- Two AQ Thunder Power Cords
- AQ Diamond Ethernet cable
- AQ Diamond AES cable

Still debating whether to get Focal Utopia, LCD4 or Senn HD800S. 

Total cost is reaching 20k. 

And the wait bandwagon goes on..

Still enjoying HD660s + Mojo for the moment. The soundstage is phenomenal.


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 26, 2018)

Emerald Core said:


> You guys are getting me excited about my Dave + N10 order. I will go the AES route as it is preferred by some over Coax.



Congrats on the purchases!

Always trust your ears of course but regarding AES3, from a technical standpoint, here was Rob's comment:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-723#post-14187276

and

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-175#post-12527111

Practically speaking though, it's impossible to NOT enjoy all of Dave's inputs.


----------



## Jawed

Emerald Core said:


> You guys are getting me excited about my Dave + N10 order. I will go the AES route as it is preferred by some over Coax.
> 
> Cables ordered along:
> - Two AQ Thunder Power Cords
> ...


Shame that you've placed your order. Blu2 + Hugo 2 and a simple streamer like a microrendu or something with built in storage would sound better and cost vastly less.

On top of that, with the Munich show coming very soon, right now is a really bad time to place an order for Chord gear. But if you're headphones-only, you can't really go wrong with DAVE. But the N10...


----------



## marcmccalmont

But the N10 is superb on all counts SQ, technical and enjoyment!!!


----------



## flyte3333

Hi @Rob Watts 

Does Dave's WTA filter #1 up-sample 44.1kHz family sample rates up to 705kHz, or all sample rates (both 44.1kHz and 48kHz) get up-sampled to 768kHz by WTA filter 1?

Cheers!


----------



## miketlse (Sep 15, 2020)

deleted


----------



## marcmccalmont

Em2016 said:


> Hi @Rob Watts
> 
> Does Dave's WTA filter #1 up-sample 44.1kHz family sample rates up to 705kHz, or all sample rates (both 44.1kHz and 48kHz) get up-sampled to 768kHz by WTA filter 1?
> 
> Cheers!


44 to 705 and 48 to 768


----------



## flyte3333

marcmccalmont said:


> 44 to 705 and 48 to 768



Thanks marc!


----------



## elviscaprice

I wouldn't go with any expensive servers/renderers/fixers, keep it cheap with a DIY server, the server market is going to change very fast for a premium price, lost value on older models, better to build your own for far cheaper.  Definitely DAVE, but I would hold out for M-Scaler.  The M-Scaler will give you far more bang in SQ than any premium server.  Same goes for speakers, high efficiency.


----------



## Emerald Core (Apr 26, 2018)

Some audiophiles are underestimating the difference between a good transport and a good digital source. Needless to say that there is less cables and a good quality power supply. On top of it, the OXCO clock inside it changes the whole package into an excellent streamer and possibly one of the most universally appraised in high end market.

Ymmv


----------



## flyte3333

I'm patiently waiting for the next M-Scaler to add to Dave, but in the mean time I thought I'd try HQPlayer...

(runs for cover.....)

Yes, I've seen all Rob's posts on up-sampling before his DACs... but again while I wait for M-Scaler.... thought I'd just try - I never tried the program before.

It sounds smoother and the depth improvement is very very noticeable...

Rob's said moving WTA filter #1 outside of the Dave does improve Dave's performance a little bit (e.g. cascading Dave's) but obviously right now I'm not using a WTA filter before Dave. So I'm up-sampling to 705k/768k to Dave at the moment (before looking to replace HQP's up-sampling with the M-Scaler !  )

Anyway, these are my HQP settings I'm using (while waiting for M-Scaler).


----------



## delirium

romaz said:


> It's quite a bit of fun watching how other people have set up their DAVE.  It really is a personal statement.  Mine has nearly 300 hours on it now and has settled in nicely into my system.  I thought I'd share a few things I've found.  Some of these things I discovered when I first had a DAVE in my home back in November but after more time with it, I have solidified certain opinions.
> 
> First, Rob pointed out that DAVE, like all things, benefits from good mechanical isolation.  My DAVE sits on my desk where its compact size and attractive aesthetics are very much a plus.  I have near-field Omega monitors also sitting on my desk along with a powered subwoofer on the floor and so when music is playing through these speakers, isolation does make a difference.  I have a quad of Black Raviolis that are low profile and do make a difference but I found a more elegant solution that looks like it is custom tailored for the DAVE.  It is the Acoustic Revive TB-38H and is designed to provide isolation for small pieces of equipment like power supplies and I will say that it not only looks good but is very effective.  It is also not very expensive and can be purchased directly from Japan via EBay.  Highly recommended.
> 
> ...


 Have people forgotten this?????


----------



## Emerald Core

With all due respect, there is no point in comparing servers vs a N10 which is not optimized for USB/Optical playback (they are expensive because of the Coax/AES OXCO clock). 
That defeats the purpose of comparing against an N10. 

If he wanted to run better USB comparisons he's better off with Ultrarendu or SoTM stacks that has further noise shielding/reduction.


----------



## elviscaprice

Emerald Core said:


> Some audiophiles are underestimating the difference between a good transport and a good digital source. Needless to say that there is less cables and a good quality power supply. On top of it, the OXCO clock inside it changes the whole package into an excellent streamer and possibly one of the most universally appraised in high end market.
> 
> Ymmv


Transport???  Welcome to the 21st century.  We don't need physical media, just one more piece of clutter.  I don't have a single piece of physical media at my main home.  It's a non factor going forward.  You nostalgic folks have the BLU 2 for that.  Myself, it's not an option, no thank you.


----------



## elviscaprice (Apr 26, 2018)

nevermind


----------



## Emerald Core

elviscaprice said:


> Transport???  Welcome to the 21st century.  We don't need physical media, just one more piece of clutter.  I don't have a single piece of physical media at my main home.  It's a non factor going forward.  You nostalgic folks have the BLU 2 for that.  Myself, it's not an option, no thank you.



 you do realize i wasn't praising Blu2 or any other transport?


----------



## elviscaprice (Apr 26, 2018)

Emerald Core said:


> you do realize i wasn't praising Blu2 or any other transport?


 Thanks for the clarification.  
Although I would add that I think all streamer comparisons to the DAVE are fair.  Keep it simple.  If your into hard media via CD, by all means Blu2.  The rest of us  can wait for m-scaler, a given addition/extension to the DAVE


----------



## Jawed

Emerald Core said:


> Some audiophiles are underestimating the difference between a good transport and a good digital source.


When you get DAVE spend some time with the optical input if you can, fed from whatever device you can find that has an optical output. This is how DAVE is supposed to sound with no noise modulation problems caused by RF noise getting through the electrical (USB, AES, BNC) inputs. 

Make sure  that no other digital input is connected to DAVE when you try optical - electrical inputs will pollute the sound quality, potentially quite badly.


----------



## dmance (Apr 26, 2018)

dac64 said:


>


I received the USB-to-TOSLINK converter you recommended.  Its the best $68 dollars I spent.  Worth the four weeks wait for it.  Its psychologically painful to limit myself to 24/96 TOSLINK but i think i can 'hear' the benefits of zero RF noise without USB interfacing to the DAC chassis ...that is I don't hear anything but the music through glorious optical. Thanks again.

For those who are wondering what the device is https://www.aliexpress.com/item/HIF...gital-interface-MuRata-Audio/32813688802.html


----------



## flyte3333

dmance said:


> I received the USB-to-TOSLINK converter you recommended.  Its the best $48 dollars I spent.  Worth the four weeks wait for it.  Its psychologically painful to limit myself to 24/96 TOSLINK but i think i can 'hear' the benefits of zero RF noise without USB interfacing to the DAC chassis ...that is I don't hear anything but the music through glorious optical. Thanks again.
> 
> For those who are wondering what the device is https://www.aliexpress.com/item/HIF...gital-interface-MuRata-Audio/32813688802.html



That's the one I recommended over in the Hugo2 thread and had working really nicely at 24/192kHz over Toslink, with both Mojo and Hugo2.

It won't work at 192kHz with Dave though. But if the 96kHz limit isn't an issue, it's a good buy.


----------



## dac64

dmance said:


> I received the USB-to-TOSLINK converter you recommended.  Its the best $68 dollars I spent.  Worth the four weeks wait for it.  Its psychologically painful to limit myself to 24/96 TOSLINK but i think i can 'hear' the benefits of zero RF noise without USB interfacing to the DAC chassis ...that is I don't hear anything but the music through glorious optical. Thanks again.
> 
> For those who are wondering what the device is https://www.aliexpress.com/item/HIF...gital-interface-MuRata-Audio/32813688802.html



Great to hear that!

I got mine a weeks ago too but my Qutest was lost in the shipping!


----------



## dac64

Em2016 said:


> That's the one I recommended over in the Hugo2 thread and had working really nicely at 24/192kHz over Toslink, with both Mojo and Hugo2.



Yeah! I bought the converter, to pair up with the Qutest, based on your recommendation.


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 26, 2018)

dac64 said:


> Yeah! I bought the converter, to pair up with the Qutest, based on your recommendation.



Given it worked flawless with Mojo and Hugo2 for me, you shouldn't have any issue at 192kHz with Qutest. DSD64 (via DoP) too.


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 26, 2018)

My HQP experimenting was short lived.

The different HQP filters do sound different and most do sound great but I can't be bothered with all the tweaking and experimenting, when I've loved Rob's filtering from Mojo, to Hugo2, to Dave.

That's not a knock on HQP either. I can imagine with a 'blank slate' type DAC where you can up-sample to it's max SR externally, it would be fun to experiment with different filters and settings, like the T + 8 DAC8 seems to be very popular with HQP.

But it's best I spend more time enjoying the music itself with Dave alone, while I wait for Rob's external up-sampling machine (M-Scaler).


----------



## Emerald Core

Jawed said:


> When you get DAVE spend some time with the optical input if you can, fed from whatever device you can find that has an optical output. This is how DAVE is supposed to sound with no noise modulation problems caused by RF noise getting through the electrical (USB, AES, BNC) inputs.
> 
> Make sure  that no other digital input is connected to DAVE when you try optical - electrical inputs will pollute the sound quality, potentially quite badly.



Thanks i'll definitely try all the inputs given. I've got a noisy gaming pc which could be a good starting point to test the optical/USB. My current temporary setup is optical out to Mojo from the noisy PC which sounds really good. I could imagine the Dave to be in a whole different level. 

But I will also test AES/Optical/USB out of Aurender N10 into Dave since it is supposed to be an audio optimized server/streamer. I can always trade-in or sell it because Aurender is on backorder and demand is high. 

Apologies for going off topic. Back to Dave .. the next flagship DAC should be named after a woman... please @Rob Watts !


----------



## Jawed

Emerald Core said:


> But I will also test AES/Optical/USB out of Aurender N10 into Dave since it is supposed to be an audio optimized server/streamer. I can always trade-in or sell it because Aurender is on backorder and demand is high.


Perhaps you might be able to change the N10 in your order to a Blu 2... The waiting time for Blu 2 is long, too, though. But there's still this question of what Chord will announce next month.

A properly ferrited USB cable into Blu 2 from your existing PC (or a simple, cheap, USB streamer) will be the equivalent of an optical connection, in terms of extremely low levels of RF noise. The connection from Blu 2 to DAVE will need strong filtering, which appears to require a pair of good BNC cables and lots of ferrites.

Now playing: Sarah Jaffe - Adeline


----------



## doraymon

Other than the Omega's mentioned more than once in the thread (I believe @romaz paired them with Dave) is there any other high efficiency speaker which has proven to work straight out of (Compton) Dave?
Klipsch?


----------



## ray-dude (Apr 27, 2018)

doraymon said:


> Other than the Omega's mentioned more than once in the thread (I believe @romaz paired them with Dave) is there any other high efficiency speaker which has proven to work straight out of (Compton) Dave?
> Klipsch?



I have both Omega Super Alnico Monitors and Voxativ 9.87's (with the 4D drivers).  A buddy has the Omega Compact Alnico Monitors, so we're comparing these all the time.  @romaz also has a custom Voxativ setup.  

Voxativ is completely next level vs the Omegas (speed, detail, imaging, sensitivity, etc) when driven by BluDAVE, but materially more expensive (Omega SAMs are one of the best deals in audio, when paired with Hugo2 or DAVE)


----------



## dmance (Apr 27, 2018)

Jawed said:


> ...A properly ferrited USB cable into Blu 2 from your existing PC (or a simple, cheap, USB streamer) will be the equivalent of an optical connection, in terms of extremely low levels of RF noise...



I wish I could agree.  I spend two nights, say 4-5 hours each night, listening to my new USB-to-TOSLINK converter.  And compared to my current USB with 15 ferrites (and tested with/without an Intona and Battery inserter on the +5V), its no comparison.  The TOSLINK converter with the new XMOS U8 is just remarkable ...kills the USB.  I hear things, beautiful things like subtle nuances in instrumentation and background vocals.   OK, this is to a PSAudio DirectStream while I wait for my Qutest to arrive ...but still.  Given that these DACs are supposed to be immune to SPDIF jitter ...is this the miracle of zero RF noise impacting the DAC?    I am a single sample, but now my Yoga laptop thru this $68 converter is the best I have heard.  I can live with a max of 24/96 to get this quality of sound for so little cost.


----------



## spotforscott

doraymon said:


> Other than the Omega's mentioned more than once in the thread (I believe @romaz paired them with Dave) is there any other high efficiency speaker which has proven to work straight out of (Compton) Dave?
> Klipsch?



My DAVE is directly powering Rethm Maarga speakers (97 db efficiency) with custom ZenWave Audio SMSG20 cable and it works very well. I have a relatively large room and sit 9' away from the speakers and it definitely plays loud enough. I also have a Rythmik sub.


----------



## Jawed

dmance said:


> I wish I could agree.  I spend two nights, say 4-5 hours each night, listening to my new USB-to-TOSLINK converter.  And compared to my current USB with 15 ferrites (and tested with/without an Intona and Battery inserter on the +5V), its no comparison.


I'm not surprised:

DAVE has fairly good USB isolation, apparently better than most DACs
With DAVE I found 20 ferrites (+ dual-Jitterbug) was not quite enough to match optical
As my signature says, I have 66 ferrites on my USB cable. You probably need 30+. The TrippLite USB cable, that I recommend (see my signature), is cheap, well made and helps against RF too.



> The TOSLINK converter with the new XMOS U8 is just remarkable ...kills the USB.  I hear things, beautiful things like subtle nuances in instrumentation and background vocals.   OK, this is to a PSAudio DirectStream while I wait for my Qutest to arrive ...but still.  Given that these DACs are supposed to be immune to SPDIF jitter ...is this the miracle of zero RF noise impacting the DAC?


In my opinion, totally! You're now hearing your DirectStream as it was supposed to sound, presuming that it is immune to jitter.

I think you're enjoying the same shock and awe that I had last September when I started using tens of ferrites. It was a huge upgrade for me and it seems it is for you!

Qutest will probably show less difference between optical and USB...



> I am a single sample, but now my Yoga laptop thru this $68 converter is the best I have heard.  I can live with a max of 24/96 to get this quality of sound for so little cost.


With cheap ferrites costing less than $1 each, you might like to indulge in adding another 20 to your USB connection to hear if it gets closer to optical.

I also recommend ferrites on DAVE's power cable, for what it's worth (in signature). I dare say there's a decent chance they'll work on your DirectStream's mains cable. That's about another $35. The Pangea cable is getting a good reputation with DAVE and costs about the same or a bit more I think. When you get the Qutest, if you decide to continue to use the optical, you can move the ferrites you own onto the USB cable that plugs in to Qutest to power it.

Now playing: Azura - Seasons


----------



## ray-dude

For those that haven't experienced it, it is stunning what volume and impact you can drive from DAVE or even Hugo2.  Even with Hugo2, my Voxativ's (104dB sensitivity) can drive my 20x25' room to "loudest I'm comfortable with" levels.  When you see a tiny box drive that much volume and presence directly (even on battery!), it is a head-shaking-in-disbelief experience.  There are definitely tradeoffs as you move from traditional two channel to these high efficiency speakers, and a new set of quirks to manage and tweak around, but the results can be stunning.


----------



## Cobold

ray-dude said:


> I have both Omega Super Alnico Monitors and Voxativ 9.87's (with the 4D drivers).  A buddy has the Omega Compact Alnico Monitors, so we're comparing these all the time.  @romaz also has a custom Voxativ setup.
> 
> Voxativ is completely next level vs the Omegas (speed, detail, imaging, sensitivity, etc) when driven by BluDAVE, but materially more expensive (Omega SAMs are one of the best deals in audio, when paired with Hugo2 or DAVE)



How can you connect a Speaker directly to Dave? What kind of cable would that be?
I think it is only a preamp.
What kind of speakers can be used that way?


----------



## ray-dude

Cobold said:


> How can you connect a Speaker directly to Dave? What kind of cable would that be?
> I think it is only a preamp.
> What kind of speakers can be used that way?



I'm currently using an RCA to female banana adapter to standard speaker cable.  Early on, I hacked a cheap RCA cable and connected it to speaker wire, and used some prebuilt cables from Amazon:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MQ1URD8

DAVE can be very comfortably used as a 2W amplifier.  Hugo2 as a 1W amp.  If you have speakers that are sufficient sensitivity, that is plenty of juice.  The high efficiency single driver speakers from folks like Voxativ and Omega Speakers certainly fit the bill.  An amazing side effect is that since they don't have any cross overs, the level of transparency and holographic imaging you get going direct to DAVE/Hugo2 is insane.  I wrote up my journey of discovery in my Chord DAC reviews (links in signature).  

Well worth seeking out this experience to see if it works for you.  For folks who respond very strongly to detail and phase information (and I think we're naturally attracted to Chord DACs) it a very special experience.


----------



## spotforscott

Cobold said:


> How can you connect a Speaker directly to Dave? What kind of cable would that be?
> I think it is only a preamp.
> What kind of speakers can be used that way?


I had Zenwave to a custom cable. They did it using the best IC cable and terminated one end for speakers


----------



## elviscaprice

Zenwave is good, but expensive.  If your a cheap DIY'er like myself, you can make your own.  My cost for materials was about $17 for a perfect length set from DAVE to my Omegas.  Look professionally made with Canare speaker cable star quad and separate added shielding.
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...r-cables/?page=24&tab=comments#comment-679186


----------



## Cobold (Apr 27, 2018)

ray-dude said:


> I'm currently using an RCA to female banana adapter to standard speaker cable.  Early on, I hacked a cheap RCA cable and connected it to speaker wire, and used some prebuilt cables from Amazon:
> 
> https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MQ1URD8
> 
> ...



Thank you for the information.
I would love to listen to your direct setup.
Never thought this could work because of impendances. But I am no technican.
Sadly I don't have any speakers with that efficiency available.


----------



## Paul Bjernklo

ray-dude said:


> I'm currently using an RCA to female banana adapter to standard speaker cable.  Early on, I hacked a cheap RCA cable and connected it to speaker wire, and used some prebuilt cables from Amazon:
> 
> https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MQ1URD8
> 
> ...



Hi, can you please give the name of the rca to female banana adapter, as I have searched the web numerous times without finding one... Thank you in advance.


----------



## ray-dude

Paul Bjernklo said:


> Hi, can you please give the name of the rca to female banana adapter, as I have searched the web numerous times without finding one... Thank you in advance.



Paul, that is a custom built adapter: take a trusted RCA cable, cut it, and solder in some female banana connectors.  I'm currently auditioning a pile of speaker cables with this setup, so very convenient


----------



## ray-dude

Cobold said:


> Thank you for the information.
> I would love to listen to your direct setup.
> Never thought this could work because of impendances. But I am no technican.
> Sadly I don't have any speakers with that efficiency available.



Drop a PM if you're in San Diego...we regularly get together for local folks to listen/critique audio kit and put a big hurt on my wine cellar


----------



## Paul Bjernklo

ray-dude said:


> Paul, that is a custom built adapter: take a trusted RCA cable, cut it, and solder in some female banana connectors.  I'm currently auditioning a pile of speaker cables with this setup, so very convenient



Aah, Not everyone has that expertise, will try to find one who does! Thank you.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Paul Bjernklo said:


> Aah, Not everyone has that expertise, will try to find one who does! Thank you.



Ted from headphonelounge can make a custom cable for you in a day's time.

https://headphonelounge.com/


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 27, 2018)

dmance said:


> I spend two nights, say 4-5 hours each night, listening to my new USB-to-TOSLINK converter. And compared to my current USB with 15 ferrites (and tested with/without an Intona and Battery inserter on the +5V), its no comparison. The TOSLINK converter with the new XMOS U8 is just remarkable ...kills the USB.



My ears totally agree.

Block the leakage current loop into the DAC 100% (like optical or a battery powered USB source totally disconnected from mains power) and you don’t need a single ferrite.

The Intona and battery inserted for 5V bus power still has connection to mains power (high impedance leakage currents sail through the Intona’s ground, according to John Swenson).

A laptop disconnected from everything except Dave’s USB input won’t need an Intona or single ferrite, since there is zero leakage currents going through the USB cable.

From Rob:

_1. battery mode operation should mean no ground loops, so no current flow into the ground planes, then no RF noise pick-up in the DAC and so no problem… This has been validated by listening tests._

_2. As to external RF, it only matters if there is a ground loop, so battery operation should mean no currents flowing into the DAC ground plane…_

_3. We need current through the ground plane to set up voltages - and it is these voltages that the analogue electronics pick up. So no current, no voltage on the ground plane, no pick-up… The common mode noise, won’t affect the analogue electronics at all.
_
Toslink blocks this leakage current loop completely too.


----------



## elviscaprice

Paul Bjernklo said:


> Hi, can you please give the name of the rca to female banana adapter, as I have searched the web numerous times without finding one... Thank you in advance.


These will work for a temporary and or testing.   Can just use a set of interconnects with them.
https://www.amazon.com/Stereo-Speak...59&sr=8-3&keywords=rca+to+banana+plug+adapter


----------



## HeeBroG (Apr 27, 2018)

dmance said:


> I wish I could agree.  I spend two nights, say 4-5 hours each night, listening to my new USB-to-TOSLINK converter.  And compared to my current USB with 15 ferrites (and tested with/without an Intona and Battery inserter on the +5V), its no comparison.  The TOSLINK converter with the new XMOS U8 is just remarkable ...kills the USB.  I hear things, beautiful things like subtle nuances in instrumentation and background vocals.   OK, this is to a PSAudio DirectStream while I wait for my Qutest to arrive ...but still.  Given that these DACs are supposed to be immune to SPDIF jitter ...is this the miracle of zero RF noise impacting the DAC?    I am a single sample, but now my Yoga laptop thru this $68 converter is the best I have heard.  I can live with a max of 24/96 to get this quality of sound for so little cost.



For those with BLU2 this might be a good option seeing as it upsamples everything to 705/768kHz anyway!

Oops! Just realised BLU2 doesn't have an optical input


----------



## HeeBroG

spotforscott said:


> I had Zenwave to a custom cable. They did it using the best IC cable and terminated one end for speakers



Interesting!
Any idea what the conductor type and gauge is?


----------



## spotforscott

HeeBroG said:


> Interesting!
> Any idea what the conductor type and gauge is?


Best for you to talk to Dave at Zenware. He is a great guy and has many options for how the cable can be configured, addressing different price points


----------



## spotforscott

HeeBroG said:


> For those with BLU2 this might be a good option seeing as it upsamples everything to 705/768kHz anyway!
> 
> Oops! Just realised BLU2 doesn't have an optical input


Wait for the m-scaler to be launched because by all indications, it will have an optical input. Speculation is that it will be launched as early as next month's show in Germany...


----------



## flyte3333

spotforscott said:


> Wait for the m-scaler to be launched because by all indications, it will have an optical input. Speculation is that it will be launched as early as next month's show in Germany...



Leakage current loops happen between PSU's (see all the links I posted a few pages age for explanations from John Swenson).

So an optical input on the next M-Scaler alone won't solve the issue (minor btw, in the big picture of things). It's the M-Scaler output that would need to block the leakage current loop, going into Dave's inputs.


----------



## Crgreen

I’ve added a Toslink output to my Blu 2 as follows: 

A male BNC to RCA male adaptor on the Blu 2’s digital out:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009OARV4K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The following SPDIF to Toslink convertor:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002WSAB8E/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have a spare LPS-1 (after upgrading to the LPS 1.2) which I use to power it - 5v/1A

The Toslink cable supplied with the Dave goes from the convertor to the Dave. All upsampling is turned off, so it’s just plain vanilla Red Book into the Dave. It sounds glorious and much better than BNC Blu 2 to Dave. I’m afraid the interface between the RFI generated by the BLU 2 and Dave’s ground plane is a major issue for me. 

I accept, this is a rather odd arrangement, and probabably not for anyone apart from an oddball like me. I now have two optical sources into the Dave — the above and and Aries Mini for Tidal, and battery USB, an IsoRegen with LPS-1.2 battery power supply. All sound good to me.


----------



## Triode User

spotforscott said:


> Wait for the m-scaler to be launched because by all indications, it will have an optical input. Speculation is that it will be launched as early as next month's show in Germany...



I think the speculation about a launch is just a vague hope at the moment. I will be watching closely though because the remainder of my years hi fi budget of £5 depends on the side bet I have with a fellow Head-Fi member.


----------



## Triode User

Crgreen said:


> I’ve added a Toslink output to my Blu 2 as follows:



Did you mean that? The rest of your post describes using the optical output from the convertor into Dave and saying you find that better than Blu2 into Dave (a real YMMV moment?).


----------



## Crgreen

Triode User said:


> Did you mean that? The rest of your post describes using the optical output from the convertor into Dave and saying you find that better than Blu2 into Dave (a real YMMV moment?).



Indeed I did, using the Blu 2 as a CD Transport only. All the convertor does it conver the signal from electrical to optical

I knew that would distress you.


----------



## Triode User

Crgreen said:


> Indeed I did, using the Blu 2 as a CD Transport only. All the convertor does it conver the signal from electrical to optical
> 
> I knew that would distress you.


----------



## TheAttorney

Crgreen said:


> Indeed I did, using the Blu 2 as a CD Transport only. All the convertor does it conver the signal from electrical to optical
> 
> I knew that would distress you.



Well it's certainly confusing me! 

It seems that you're saying that the el cheapo toslink converter (with no upscaling) into DAVE's optical input sounds better than the full M-scaler through BNC connections. Truely a cat amongst pidgeons moment, and also suggests that you've wasted a whole heap of money in getting the Blu2.

So have you tried bypassing the Blu2 altogether and adding this toslink converter between non-CD digital source and DAVE?


----------



## audio_1 (Apr 28, 2018)

Crgreen said:


> I’ve added a Toslink output to my Blu 2 as follows:
> 
> A male BNC to RCA male adaptor on the Blu 2’s digital out:
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009OARV4K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> ...



Could 4 of the Lindy SPDIF to Toslink converters be used to have dual optical connections between Blu2 and Dave? A good power 5 volt power supply would be required for the 2 converters plugged into the Dave dual BNC inputs. This would be a messy solution, also requiring 4 x digital (rca to bnc) and 2 x optical cables, but no ferrites. Full m-scaling on the BLU2 could then be used.


----------



## Crgreen

TheAttorney said:


> Well it's certainly confusing me!
> 
> It seems that you're saying that the el cheapo toslink converter (with no upscaling) into DAVE's optical input sounds better than the full M-scaler through BNC connections. Truely a cat amongst pidgeons moment, and also suggests that you've wasted a whole heap of money in getting the Blu2.
> 
> So have you tried bypassing the Blu2 altogether and adding this toslink converter between non-CD digital source and DAVE?



Let me clarify: it sounds better than the single BNC output from Blu 2 into Dave. As regards the dual BNC output into Dave, that gives greater detail, depth and soundstage. Unfortunately, it also adds a metallic sheen, like a false additive, which I find unacceptable. As I have said before, I consider this due to the interface, high RFI and interference with Dave’s ground plane, which can be reduced but not removed altogether with ferrites. So, tonally it sounds better, and of course, I get upsampling at the Dave end.

I probabaly have wasted my money, but since I can’t sell the Blu 2 for a decent price, I might as well retain it as a CD Transport — and it’s a superb transport — and avoid polluting the Dave by using an optical connection. 

I’ve not tried adding to the toslink convertor between a non-CD source and the Dave, and see no point. My battery-powered USB connection works fine.


----------



## Crgreen

audio_1 said:


> Could 4 of the Lindy SPDIF to Toslink converters be used to have dual optical connections between Blu2 and Dave? A good power 5 volt power supply would be required for the 2 converters plugged into the Dave dual BNC inputs. This would be a messy solution, also requiring 4 x digital (rca to bnc) and 2 x optical cables, but no ferrites.



The problem with that would be that I don’t think Dave Cana crept >96khz via optical.


----------



## Jawed

Crgreen said:


> I’ve added a Toslink output to my Blu 2 [...]
> 
> The Toslink cable supplied with the Dave goes from the convertor to the Dave. All upsampling is turned off, so it’s just plain vanilla Red Book into the Dave. It sounds glorious and much better than BNC Blu 2 to Dave. I’m afraid the interface between the RFI generated by the BLU 2 and Dave’s ground plane is a major issue for me.


Epic! Fascinating setup.

You say the upsampling is set to "low", which according to the manual is with the upsample switch in the "Up" position. Does it still work if you set this switch to the "Mid" position? That should be 176.4KHz, which should work over TOSLink.

Now playing: Mogwai - I Know You Are But What Am I?


----------



## Crgreen

Jawed said:


> Epic! Fascinating setup.
> 
> You say the upsampling is set to "low", which according to the manual is with the upsample switch in the "Up" position. Does it still work if you set this switch to the "Mid" position? That should be 176.4KHz, which should work over TOSLink.
> 
> Now playing: Mogwai - I Know You Are But What Am I?



I have set upsampling to low, which is in fact off altogether. Mid-position is double — 88.2 — and to my ear doesn’t sound as good as 44.1. The high setting - 176 - won’t work properly as Dave’s Toslink input doesn’t reach that high, though the convertor can apparently handle up to 192. As I’ve said, leaving all upsampling to the Dave seems to sound best for this configuration.


----------



## audio_1

Crgreen said:


> The problem with that would be that I don’t think Dave Cana crept >96khz via optical.





Crgreen said:


> The problem with that would be that I don’t think Dave Cana crept >96khz via optical.



2 of the Lindy converters would be connected to the dual bnc inputs on the Dave. Just realised it wouldn't work as toslink is restricted to 192 kHz, not 352.8 or 384 kHz.


----------



## Crgreen

audio_1 said:


> Could 4 of the Lindy SPDIF to Toslink converters be used to have dual optical connections between Blu2 and Dave? A good power 5 volt power supply would be required for the 2 converters plugged into the Dave dual BNC inputs. This would be a messy solution, also requiring 4 x digital (rca to bnc) and 2 x optical cables, but no ferrites. Full m-scaling on the BLU2 could then be used.



Actually, on reflection, that might work though as you say, something of a hammer to crack a nut. On the other hand, it’s a nut I’ve been unable to crack thus far.


----------



## Jawed

Crgreen said:


> I have set upsampling to low, which is in fact off altogether. Mid-position is double — 88.2 — and to my ear doesn’t sound as good as 44.1. The high setting - 176 - won’t work properly as Dave’s Toslink input doesn’t reach that high, though the convertor can apparently handle up to 192.


My DAVE works with 192KHz from my computer, using the 1m optical cable that came with DAVE. But we've recently had a discussion about some TOSLink sources not working with DAVE at rates > 96KHz and it seems the Lindy might be one of these sources. That's a bummer.



> As I’ve said, leaving all upsampling to the Dave seems to sound best for this configuration.


This sounds right (I forgot that "mid" is 1/4 of the full upsampling rate):

~1 million taps at 705.6KHz - UP - dual BNC

~500,000 taps at 352,8KHz - UP - single BNC
~250,000 taps at 176.4KHz - MID - dual BNC
~125,000 taps at 88.2KHz - MID - single BNC - which is less taps than DAVE alone
It's a real shame that Blu 2 doesn't have a USB output...

Now playing: Mogwai - You Don't Know Jesus


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 28, 2018)

Jawed said:


> It's a real shame that Blu 2 doesn't have a USB output...



This is what I've been dreaming for, for the next M-Scaler.

An optically isolated USB audio output... No leakage currents between PSU's, no RF worries, no ferrites needed, and since it's USB, Dave's nice expensive clock (mm from the FPGA) is controlling the timing.

But I don't know if this would mean the M-Scaler's USB audio output could be used with ANY DAC that accepts PCM768kHz ? Or if that signal would be locked somehow for use with Chord DACs only?

Does ANY *non-*Chord DAC right now with a single 353kHz BNC input benefit from Blu2's up-sampling (500k taps)?

I don't care if it's locked for use only with Chord DACs but not sure if you can lock the USB audio output of an M-Scaler (in my dreams) so that it only works with Chord DACs. If it can be done, fantastic, a USB audio output can work! 

The other tricky part of course is optically isolating the USB output.


----------



## Jawed

Em2016 said:


> But I don't know if this would mean the M-Scaler's USB audio output could be used with ANY DAC that accepts PCM768kHz ? Or if that signal would be locked somehow for use with Chord DACs only?


I doubt that locking to Chord DACs has been Chord's intention.

BNCs on Blu 2 are there for compatibility with the original Blu users' systems: Blu has BNC outputs too, so Blu 2 is a drop-in replacement.

In theory BNCs are also good for very long connections. So BNC looks like a reasonable solution.

DAVE is a microscope for RF though...

Now playing: Liza Anne - I am not in Love Anymore


----------



## flyte3333

Jawed said:


> I doubt that locking to Chord DACs has been Chord's intention.
> 
> BNCs on Blu 2 are there for compatibility with the original Blu users' systems: Blu has BNC outputs too, so Blu 2 is a drop-in replacement.
> 
> ...



Yes, not questioning the use of BNC at all. I'm thinking (dreaming) forwardly.


----------



## doraymon

I don't want to open a can of worms but can anyone comment by direct experience the difference between Clear and Utopia straight out of DAVE?


----------



## jaspal kallar (Apr 28, 2018)

ray-dude said:


> I have both Omega Super Alnico Monitors and Voxativ 9.87's (with the 4D drivers).  A buddy has the Omega Compact Alnico Monitors, so we're comparing these all the time.  @romaz also has a custom Voxativ setup.
> 
> Voxativ is completely next level vs the Omegas (speed, detail, imaging, sensitivity, etc) when driven by BluDAVE, but materially more expensive (Omega SAMs are one of the best deals in audio, when paired with Hugo2 or DAVE)



Do you or your buddy need to use a sub with either of your Omega speakers when used directly with Dave/Hugo 2 (eg nearfield; max 7 feet from listening position to the speakers) ?


----------



## ray-dude (Apr 28, 2018)

jaspal kallar said:


> Do you or your buddy need to use a sub with either of your Omega speakers when used directly with Dave/Hugo 2 (nearfield; max 7 feet from listening position to the speakers) ?



The Voxativ 9.87's come bundled with the Voxativ dipole bass units, which are absolutely remarkable: dual high efficiency 98dB sensitivity drivers facing each other, driven by a 250W class A/B amp.  By far the cleanest and fastest and most musical bass I've ever heard.  If you need a sub for any musical system (Voxativ or no), you must give these a listen.

When I was running my Omega Super Alnico Monitors, I experimented pairing with my JL Audio F112v2 sub, but I didn't find it strictly necessary.  The Omega SAMs very comfortably get to the mid 30's.  The sub was wonderful for filling out the resonances from various instruments (piano, strings, etc) and you definitely heard a richer, more full sound, but the SAMs by themselves were very satisfying for me.

The Omega Compact Alnico Monitors were a bit thinner, giving up maybe 5-7Hz on the low end.  I found that I really wanted some additional heft at the low end when listening to the CAMs.

As an interesting aside, my buddy recently snagged a First Watt F1J amp http://www.firstwatt.com/f1j.html  .  This is a 10WPC class A current amp, that in theory is more immune to variable impedance loads from the driver. In theory, it is very well matched to single driver units like the Omegas.

The combination of the F1J with the Omega SAMs blew us away.  To give you a sense  of the moment, within 5 seconds, people were exclaiming WOW! and my buddy had his arms in the air yelling "Yes!"

They sound like full range speakers now(!), with bass clearly audible into the mid 20s (although diminished) with even more incredible dynamics and rich full presence (usually a weakness of the Omegas).  Absolutely no sub required with the SAMs if you have this amp!  The F1J is powering through any load quirks from the Omega drivers and taking names!

As context, I have also driven the SAMs with a Classe CT-2300 amp (300WPC) and Benchmark AHB2 amp (100WPC) that were normally connected to my (dearly departed) B&W802d3 speakers.  Using those more traditional amps, Omega SAMs sounded like OK bookshelf speakers.  Absolutely nothing like revelation we heard with the F1J's!

He's loaning it to me for the weekend, so I'll be playing with it with my Omega SAMs and Voxativs and BluDAVE, to get a better sense of the tradeoffs between transparency and imaging (from having an amp in the chain) and dynamics and range (from having a kick ass current amp in the chain)

(edit: corrected First Watt F1 to First Watt F1J)


----------



## Mython

Crgreen said:


> I’ve added a Toslink output to my Blu 2 as follows:
> 
> A male BNC to RCA male adaptor on the Blu 2’s digital out:
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009OARV4K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> ...




Frankly, I'm very disappointed that some of you uber-geek audiophiles in this thread haven't bothered to build a Faraday cage around your listening room, and around each of your components.

Shame on you, for being so slack!


----------



## rayl

Mython said:


> Frankly, I'm very disappointed that some of you uber-geek audiophiles in this thread haven't bothered to build a Faraday cage around your listening room, and around each of your components.
> 
> Shame on you, for being so slack!



I suggested this several months back (or at least that someone may want to try an RF testing box), but it seems like the consensus is that noise is introduced by components within the system feeding into other components....  so no go!


----------



## Mython

rayl said:


> I suggested this several months back (or at least that someone may want to try an RF testing box), but it seems like the consensus is that noise is introduced by components within the system feeding into other components....  so no go!



That's a good point, but I still feel it demonstrates a lack of initiative!


----------



## jarnopp

ray-dude said:


> The Voxativ 9.87's come bundled with the Voxativ dipole bass units, which are absolutely remarkable: dual high efficiency 98dB sensitivity drivers facing each other, driven by a 250W class A/B amp.  By far the cleanest and fastest and most musical bass I've ever heard.  If you need a sub for any musical system (Voxativ or no), you must give these a listen.
> 
> When I was running my Omega Super Alnico Monitors, I experimented pairing with my JL Audio F112v2 sub, but I didn't find it strictly necessary.  The Omega SAMs very comfortably get to the mid 30's.  The sub was wonderful for filling out the resonances from various instruments (piano, strings, etc) and you definitely heard a richer, more full sound, but the SAMs by themselves were very satisfying for me.
> 
> ...



Looking forward to your impressions. I would consider for driving the HE-6s. Do you know if it’s the original F1 or the F1J?


----------



## ray-dude

jarnopp said:


> Looking forward to your impressions. I would consider for driving the HE-6s. Do you know if it’s the original F1 or the F1J?



Sorry, it is a F1J.  I'll edit my original post to correct (thank you)

Comparing the BluDAVE + F1J + Omega SAMs to BluDAVE + F1J + Voxativ 9.87's is quite interesting actually.  For folks that have been tracking some of my recent investigations, I've been quite keen on unwinding the output section of the DAVE and understanding what impact power can have on dynamics and imaging with same.  This test has been quite  informative in that quest.

With the SAMs + F1J, dynamics and speed and fullness are way beyond what I've heard going direct from BluDAVE to the SAMs.  This is a huge (but very pleasant) surprise.  There is a general loss of transparency and imaging (depth esp.) but a lot less than I've experienced with other amps.  The transparency and sound stage of the SAMs + F1J is still miles better than what I've heard with my B&W 802d3's, and the presence is within respectable (long) spitting distance (pretty incredible for a single driver speaker that costs 10x less).  This combination is a phenomenal "traditional" two channel setup.

With the BluDAVE + F1J + Voxativ, speed and dynamics actually seem to be going backwards from the baseline of BluDAVE direct to Voxativs (and detail/soundstage/imaging even more backwards).  This is all normal behavior that I would expect when putting an amp between BluDAVE and high efficiency speakers.  Huh.

So early hypothesis: is DAVE direct not able to keep up with the more demanding Omega SAMs (98dB sensitivity), but has no issue keeping up with the higher sensitivity Voxativ's (104dB sensitivity)?  That would point to the output stage of the DAVE being not being able to fully drive the current the Omega needs for dynamics, but having a lot easier time driving the Voxativ's.  How much is the DAVE switching supply supply being able to drive current to the op amps, and how much is the op amps themselves?  If someone has access to a prototype of Rob's digital amp, I'd be delighted to put this hypothesis to the test 

So based on my listening tests today, here are my take aways: 

* For those that appreciate Chord "realism" but still want that visceral impact from music (what I think of as "power" or presence centric listeners), the combination of DAVE + a high brow current amp + single driver speakers is incredible.  I would take BluDAVE + F1J + Omega SAMs over BluDAVE + big amp + B&W 802d3's any day of the week.

* For those of us that are more imaging/detail centric (what I think of "phase" or space centric listeners), the F1J  still takes away a lot of that wonderful magic going DAVE direct gives you.  Get more sensitive and faster transducers (like the Voxativ drivers) and enjoy.

Now where can I get my hands on that prototype Chord digital amp so I can see if one can get "power" and "phase" at the same time?


----------



## elviscaprice (Apr 28, 2018)

ray-dude said:


> * For those that appreciate Chord "realism" but still want that visceral impact from music (what I think of as "power" or presence centric listeners), the combination of DAVE + a high brow current amp + single driver speakers is incredible.  I would take BluDAVE + F1J + Omega SAMs over BluDAVE + big amp + B&W 802d3's any day of the week.
> 
> * For those of us that are more imaging/detail centric (what I think of "phase" or space centric listeners), the F1J  still takes away a lot of that wonderful magic going DAVE direct gives you.  Get more sensitive and faster transducers (like the Voxativ drivers) and enjoy.



I would think this is very dependent on room size and amount of needed volume/power being driven.  Glad to hear of an amp that doesn't diminish too significantly from DAVE resolution.  For us nearfield listeners, with the single non power hungry Alnicos (bass) Omegas, that don't reach as deep in the bass range, are probably better served with DAVE direct, just like you found with your Voxativ's.  I like the newer REL's (subs) for added power and matching in the lower range, without effecting the Omega's resolving mid to high range output.  Have great synergy.


----------



## ray-dude (Apr 28, 2018)

elviscaprice said:


> I would think this is very dependent on room size and amount of needed volume/power being driven.  Glad to hear of an amp that doesn't diminish too significantly from DAVE resolution.  For us nearfield listeners, with the single non power hungry Alnicos (bass) Omegas, that don't reach as deep in the bass range, are probably better served with DAVE direct, just like you found with your Voxativ's.  I like the newer REL's (subs) for added power and matching in the lower range, without effecting the Omega's resolving mid to high range output.  Have great synergy.



Nearfield Omegas being driven by (Blu)DAVE is something extra special!  I'd be loathe to diminish any of that remarkable holographic soundstage (phenomenal) with an amp, no matter what it added elsewhere.

I should clarify that while the First Watt F1J did significantly fill out the bass of the Omega Super Alnico Monitors, the biggest surprise for me was how significantly it lifted the dynamics and speed of the SAMs across the board.  You'd definitely hear that near field or far field, but as a "phase" guy, I'd never trade that holographic near field soundstage for that lift in dynamics with the amp.  My buddy who bought the F1J (who is a "power" guy) most definitely would.  The combo with the F1J is perfect for him (I'm very happy for him).

Which model RELs have you found a good match?  The JL Audio's are wonderful, but a bit impractical in a near field setup.  My "someday" plan for my Omega SAMs (once I have a real office again) is to have them near field at work, and would love to pair them with a practical sub.


----------



## doraymon (Apr 28, 2018)

doraymon said:


> After a few more hours I can confirm my initial impressions of the direct USB connectIon Dave / Mac mini and the connection through SOtM network player / USB cleaner sounding extremely close.





elviscaprice said:


> Shocking, I would have thought the sCLK-EX component a clear outright winner. Are you bridging to it?  Did you give it some break in time?  Are you using a good power supply?  If it's not determinable doing it manually, it isn't worth the upgrade.



For reasons to me unclear (hardware or brain brake-in?) after a few hours with the Dave I start hearing a difference between direct USB connection and networked solution although these differences are evident only by A/B-ing the two (OMG, what verb is this?) during a critical listening session.
I always try to remain open to what my ears tell me, no matter which is the common opinion on a setup or the other. In this case however I am struggling to form an opinion.
Eventually I decided to add a reference point: direct optical connection between my MacBook Pro and Dave.
So eventually I've been able to compare:
1) Mac mini running Roon Server > USB to Dave
2) Mac mini running Roon Server > AQ-SWITCH-SE > sMS-200ultra > tX-USBultra > USB to Dave
3) MacBook Pro (battery powered) running Audirvana Plus > optical to Dave

To cut the long story short these are my main findings:
1) Again the differences are not night and day but indeed solution 3 offered the most enjoyable, full and non-fatiguing sound. Unfortunately for several reasons this is not a sustainable solution (placement, storage capacity and use of the laptop for other purposes).
2) All three solutions displayed a similar level of detail retrieval (huge, as you know) with solution 2 and 3 sounding slightly more 3D
3) Probably the biggest difference among the three was the bass, with solution 3 delivering a much fuller, rich bass, followed closely by solution 2
4) I'm not sure weather the use of Audirvana instead of Roon with the optical connection introduces an additional source of inconsistency between setups but I couldn't get Roon on the MacBook Pro to control the Dave through optical yet.

In this comparison the networked solution appears to sound closest tot the optical despite having 3 additional "boxes".

I will keep on comparing in order to decide if I will keep the SOtM chain or sell it.


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 28, 2018)

doraymon said:


> For reasons to me unclear (hardware or brain brake-in?) after a few hours with the Dave I start hearing a difference between direct USB connection and networked solution although these differences are evident only by A/B-ing the two (OMG, what verb is this?) during a critical listening session.
> I always try to remain open to what my ears tell me, no matter which is the common opinion on a setup or the other. In this case however I am struggling to form an opinion.
> Eventually I decided to add a reference point: direct optical connection between my MacBook Pro and Dave.
> So eventually I've been able to compare:
> ...



Very very similar to my findings a page or three ago.

Since you have Roon, could you try comparing an iOS endpoint (iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch), running off battery (don't connect to a wall charger) feeding Dave?

You need this: https://www.apple.com/au/shop/product/MK0W2AM/A/lightning-to-usb-3-camera-adapter

It sounds the best of the bunch to me... Battery powered, low power consumption USB audio source. But not the most practical, needing battery re-charging, even if you bought a large powerbank for it. Hence I only use this for critical listening and my TOSlink source is enjoyable enough for long fatigue free listening most of the time.

But for me, this is the reference sound to beat. No leakage currents, no RF, no ferrite beads needed and the nice expensive clock right next to Dave's FPGA is controlling the timing (I'm just copying parts of what Rob has taught me).

You can even load the Neutron Music Player app on it to turn it to a UPnP endpoint (with Audirvana for example).


----------



## doraymon

Em2016 said:


> Very very similar to my findings a page or three ago.
> 
> Since you have Roon, could you try comparing an iOS endpoint (iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch), running off battery (don't connect to a wall charger) feeding Dave?
> 
> ...


Yes I have the camera adapter and will try with my iPad.
Not sure however how that will work as the music is stored on the Mac mini, so why connecting the iPad to Dave? Will that work only for streaming?
I’m confused


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 28, 2018)

doraymon said:


> Yes I have the camera adapter and will try with my iPad.
> Not sure however how that will work as the music is stored on the Mac mini, so why connecting the iPad to Dave? Will that work only for streaming?
> I’m confused



Your Mac Mini will remain your Roon Core.

Your iPad will then be seen on your Mac Mini as an endpoint, the same way your SMS-200 shows up as a RoonReady endpoint, wirelessly.

You use your existing USB 2.0 cable to connect the Apple adapter to Dave's USB input.

You just need to setup the iPad as an endpoint and in it's settings (in Roon device settings) disable 'private zone'.

Play around with it. It's not too difficult to setup fortunately. When you're playing music, just turn your iPad to 'Do No Disturb' mode

Why connect the iPad to Dave this way? It's now a low power consumption battery powered USB audio source that's disconnected from mains power. If you have all the bits already, it's free to try.


----------



## doraymon

Em2016 said:


> Your Mac Mini will remain your Roon Core.
> 
> Your iPad will then be seen on your Mac Mini as an endpoint, the same way your SMS-200 shows up as a RoonReady endpoint, wirelessly.
> 
> ...


Got it thanks!
Will try and report back!


----------



## jarnopp

ray-dude said:


> Sorry, it is a F1J.  I'll edit my original post to correct (thank you)
> 
> Comparing the BluDAVE + F1J + Omega SAMs to BluDAVE + F1J + Voxativ 9.87's is quite interesting actually.  For folks that have been tracking some of my recent investigations, I've been quite keen on unwinding the output section of the DAVE and understanding what impact power can have on dynamics and imaging with same.  This test has been quite  informative in that quest.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the impressions. I hope to get to SoCal to take you up on your offer. Not sure if I’m more excited about your kit or your wine cellar!


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 29, 2018)

doraymon said:


> 1) Again the differences are not night and day but indeed solution 3 offered the most enjoyable, full and non-fatiguing sound.



This is how I described Toslink a few pages ago - over a long listening session (over an hour) there's no listening fatigue and there's always the desire to turn up the volume.

With all the USB mains sources I've tried, they sound great but I don't have the same desire to crank the volume up and actually over a long listening session, I kind of want to drop the volume a few dB, probably a little more listening fatigue.

The battery powered USB source has the same characteristics I described above for Toslink - musical, no listening fatigue over long listening sessions and there's that desire to want to crank the volume. I would probably fail a blind test every time between these 2 but I still refer to the battery USB source as my reference in a technical sense for critical listening only, because it by-passes the re-clocking stage before the nice extensive master clock right next to the FPGA. With a quality Toslink source, the difference is difficult for me to pick.

Curious to see if you find similar.

For anyone else reading this and who may get the wrong idea - you can enjoy every single input with Dave.

We are down in the weeds discussing  technical differences and personal preferences here. Still fun to share though


----------



## Jawed

Em2016 said:


> I would probably fail a blind test every time between these 2 but I still refer to the battery USB source as my reference in a technical sense for critical listening only, because it by-passes the re-clocking stage before the nice extensive master clock right next to the FPGA. With a quality Toslink source, the difference is difficult for me to pick.


It seems you need to be told, yet again, that USB timing from the FPGA is a red herring. Optical is the reference. USB can never be better.



> For anyone else reading this and who may get the wrong idea - you can enjoy every single input with Dave.
> 
> We are down in the weeds discussing  technical differences and personal preferences here. Still fun to share though


I disagree strongly. There is a huge gulf between DAVE with a noisy USB source versus optical. Much larger than the difference between Hugo 2 and DAVE (both with optical).


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 29, 2018)

Jawed said:


> It seems you need to be told, yet again, that USB timing from the FPGA is a red herring. Optical is the reference. USB can never be better.



While I've said many times (to keep perspective) that the audible difference is almost non existent to my ears, from a technical sense this makes zero sense. Maybe the term 'red herring' is what's confusing me.

How can adding a stage (re-clocking) in the path be better or even equal?

Park RF aside for a second because that disappears with a battery powered USB source, and just look at timing:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-232#post-12688589

And:

_"There are two problems that USB has against toslink - and one benefit. The benefit is that timing comes from Mojo - *but with toslink the incoming data has to be re-timed via the digital phase lock loop (DPLL) and this is not quite as good *- but you will only hear the difference via a careful AB test, so it's in practice insignificant."_

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-mojo-dac-amp-☆★►faq-in-3rd-post-◄★☆.784602/page-1521#post-12869495

It's a longer path. As they say, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

And back to RF with USB. From Rob:

_1. battery mode operation should mean no ground loops, so no current flow into the ground planes, then no RF noise pick-up in the DAC and so no problem… This has been validated by listening tests._

_2. As to external RF, it only matters if there is a ground loop, so battery operation should mean no currents flowing into the DAC ground plane…_

_3. We need current through the ground plane to set up voltages - and it is these voltages that the analogue electronics pick up. So no current, no voltage on the ground plane, no pick-up… The common mode noise, won’t affect the analogue electronics at all._




Jawed said:


> I disagree strongly. There is a huge gulf between DAVE with a noisy USB source versus optical.



I wouldn't consider a battery powered (disconnected from mains power) and power frugal (by design) mobile USB source 'noisy'. But I'm no expert.

To my ears (and connecting all the dots above) a battery powered and power frugal mobile USB source is the best SQ.


----------



## HeeBroG

ray-dude said:


> Nearfield Omegas being driven by (Blu)DAVE is something extra special!  I'd be loathe to diminish any of that remarkable holographic soundstage (phenomenal) with an amp, no matter what it added elsewhere.
> 
> Which model RELs have you found a good match?  The JL Audio's are wonderful, but a bit impractical in a near field setup.  My "someday" plan for my Omega SAMs (once I have a real office again) is to have them near field at work, and would love to pair them with a practical sub.



Hi Ray,

Why are the JL audio subs impractical for a near field setup?

G


----------



## doraymon (Apr 29, 2018)

@Em2016 thanks for the tips on Roon!
I managed to setup my iPad mini as Roon End Point and I did the same with my MacBook Pro connected to the DAVE through Optical. So now all comparisons are consistent having Roon as a player.
This was indeed the ultimate test as it finally revealed the superiority of the Toslink input and of battery powered sources connected via USB.
MacBook on Optical: with a Sys.Concept cable I achieved a perfect connection up to 192KHz PCM and DSD64.
iPad on USB: the iPad connected to USB came second but very very close to the optical and completely smashed the USB out of the Mac Mini via SOtM chain!
That being said I agree with @Em2016, I would also probably fail a blind test between optical and iPad USB. They are very, very close and the only difference is difficult to put int words. It's a sense of relaxation probably linked to a total absence of "added" harshness or sibilance (added on top of whatever is already present on the recording obviously).

During the test the most immediate difference among the setups was the bass reproduction. I could clearly tell that optical and iPad USB had a fuller, punchier bass, simply fantastic.
Then the realism in terms of spacial positioning of the instruments was also a differentiating factor even though more difficult to spot.

Eventually I will probably use my iPad for every day listening and optical every time I want to touch base with the reference. I will buy a longer Sys.Concept cable to allow a more convenient placing of the laptop.

EDIT: now I can shift my  $100 worth of ferrite clamps to Dave's power cable and continue the journey...


----------



## marcmccalmont (Apr 29, 2018)

HeeBroG said:


> Hi Ray,
> 
> Why are the JL audio subs impractical for a near field setup?
> 
> G


They work fine in my set up. By definition subwoofers in a listening room are near field devices. 20hz = 55’ wavelength


----------



## ray-dude (Apr 29, 2018)

HeeBroG said:


> Hi Ray,
> 
> Why are the JL audio subs impractical for a near field setup?
> 
> G



Geoff, my F112 is a BEAST of a sub. While awesome to fill (and shake) a 20x25’ room when watching a movie, it would be overwhelming under a desk in an office at work.  I would personally lean toward a more modest 8” sub just to minimize the complaints    To Marc’s point, there is nothing special about near field vs far field that would impact this sub.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Apr 29, 2018)

ray-dude said:


> Geoff, my F112 is a BEAST of a sub. While awesome to fill (and shake) a 20x25’ room when watching a movie, it would be overwhelming under a desk in an office at work.  I would personally lean toward a more modest 8” sub just to minimize the complaints    To Marc’s point, there is nothing special about near field vs far field that would impact this sub.


I’ve got a pair of 10” JL’s e110 which integrate well for music in a medium- large room the 12” would be more appropriate for movies. All full range speakers are near field/far field devices depending on frequency!


----------



## elviscaprice

ray-dude said:


> Which model RELs have you found a good match?  The JL Audio's are wonderful, but a bit impractical in a near field setup.  My "someday" plan for my Omega SAMs (once I have a real office again) is to have them near field at work, and would love to pair them with a practical sub.


I'm using one REL t5i.  What I like about the REL's is the simplicity in which they receive the signal and match up to your given speakers.  The speaker level input is brilliant and doesn't hinder the low impedance from DAVE to the Omega's direct.  I don't know how they do it, but it works very well with the Omega's.  For my room size, the 125W (class AB) is plenty big on the t5i.  I don't even get to mid point.  This sub, only rated to 32hz, helps increase my low end and pick up the low/mids (level them out) without making it's presence known other than as an extension of the Omega's.. 
Obviously the bigger you go in sub, the lower you'll get in bass.  I'm not a bass head at all, the 8" REL is more than enough.


----------



## Jawed

Em2016 said:


> Maybe the term 'red herring' is what's confusing me.


Rob has said that optical is the reference. I have linked his posting for you in the past. 

He was quite clear: clocking for USB does not make it superior to optical. It was an opinion he used to hold, but he has changed his mind. The effect he was hearing was RF induced distortion, which at low levels can sound attractive: enhancing the sense of clarity and detail. 

This seems to be why a lot of people like a bit of RF in the mix.



> To my ears (and connecting all the dots above) a battery powered and power frugal mobile USB source is the best SQ.


A bad USB source without ferrites (such as my computer) is a long way from optical. A battery powered USB source (such as you've been testing with) can at best match optical. It's really that simple. 

There are no dots to connect. It should sound the same as optical 

Rob spent years thinking (and saying on forums) that USB sounded better before realising that optical was the reference (seemingly due to the work he was doing on Hugo 2). I expect it'll be years before Rob's change of opinion will become dominant across forums


----------



## elviscaprice (Apr 29, 2018)

Jawed said:


> Rob has said that optical is the reference. I have linked his posting for you in the past.
> 
> He was quite clear: clocking for USB does not make it superior to optical. It was an opinion he used to hold, but he has changed his mind. The effect he was hearing was RF induced distortion, which at low levels can sound attractive: enhancing the sense of clarity and detail.
> 
> ...



LOL, so true, but a bunch of B.S.  Far too many audiophiles disagree, from experience, and to say it is so, is an insult to their own ears.  But I digress, if you get USB correct, optical can't match it, unless you go down the same path.  A crappy clocked/powered labtop is going to give you just that, optical or USB.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Apr 29, 2018)

Lets all agree to disagree!
But since it is all just ones and zeroes once an interface is optimized they should all sound the same. The key is optimizing the interface.


----------



## Jawed

elviscaprice said:


> Far too many audiophiles disagree, from experience, and to say it is so, is an insult to their own ears.


With a DAC that isn't a Chord those audiophiles could easily be correct, because jitter is a problem for DACs, in general, it seems.

You should try optical with your DAVE sometime. Make sure to disconnect all other sources when you do.


----------



## elviscaprice (Apr 29, 2018)

Jawed said:


> With a DAC that isn't a Chord those audiophiles could easily be correct, because jitter is a problem for DACs, in general, it seems.


Not true, from our listening experiences, it would appear all DAC's, Chord included are effected by upstream clocking/power.



Jawed said:


> You should try optical with your DAVE sometime. Make sure to disconnect all other sources when you do.


Of course we have.  But obviously due to it's technical limitations we don't pursue any further in trying to optimize the source for optical.  Might as well go USB for greater format capability.


----------



## Jawed

elviscaprice said:


> Of course we have.


So you're in agreement with Romaz, I suppose, with a strong dislike for optical.



> But obviously due to it's technical limitations we don't pursue any further in trying to optimize the source for optical. Might as well go USB for greater format capability.


Yes the format restrictions caused by optical are a problem. I use USB so that playing hi-res is easy.


----------



## jaspal kallar (Apr 30, 2018)

ray-dude said:


> The Voxativ 9.87's come bundled with the Voxativ dipole bass units, which are absolutely remarkable: dual high efficiency 98dB sensitivity drivers facing each other, driven by a 250W class A/B amp.  By far the cleanest and fastest and most musical bass I've ever heard.  If you need a sub for any musical system (Voxativ or no), you must give these a listen.
> 
> When I was running my Omega Super Alnico Monitors, I experimented pairing with my JL Audio F112v2 sub, but I didn't find it strictly necessary.  The Omega SAMs very comfortably get to the mid 30's.  The sub was wonderful for filling out the resonances from various instruments (piano, strings, etc) and you definitely heard a richer, more full sound, but the SAMs by themselves were very satisfying for me.
> 
> ...





ray-dude said:


> The Voxativ 9.87's come bundled with the Voxativ dipole bass units, which are absolutely remarkable: dual high efficiency 98dB sensitivity drivers facing each other, driven by a 250W class A/B amp.  By far the cleanest and fastest and most musical bass I've ever heard.  If you need a sub for any musical system (Voxativ or no), you must give these a listen.
> 
> When I was running my Omega Super Alnico Monitors, I experimented pairing with my JL Audio F112v2 sub, but I didn't find it strictly necessary.  The Omega SAMs very comfortably get to the mid 30's.  The sub was wonderful for filling out the resonances from various instruments (piano, strings, etc) and you definitely heard a richer, more full sound, but the SAMs by themselves were very satisfying for me.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the informative reply @ray-dude, appreciate it


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 29, 2018)

doraymon said:


> iPad on USB: the iPad connected to USB came second but very very close to the optical and completely smashed the USB out of the Mac Mini via SOtM chain!



Thanks for sharing. All your observations pretty much reflect all of my own.

Especially how an optimised USB source like your SMS-200 Ultra and my microRendu v1.4 isn’t enough to beat a plain old mobile endpoint- in my case a cheap iPod Touch !

I think (at a guess) the difference we are hearing is a small amount of leakage currents and RF getting into Dave versus NO leakage currents and RF getting into Dave (battery powered solution).

The small difference between Toslink and the battery powered USB source is definitely not worth the time arguing about and as we both agree, we’d easily fail a blind test there.

And as we both agreed, better off picking the most practical one for most everyday listening and the best sounding one for critical listening. For me it happens to be the reverse, where Toslink is more practical for everyday use, only because of my setup.

The effect of completely 100% blocking the leakage currents and hence RF getting into Dave is the most significant finding for me and my ears, i.e both a mains disconnected USB source and Toslink source. That difference is not a small one.

And not a single ferrite needs to be harmed with either of these options


----------



## GryphonGuy

marcmccalmont said:


> ... since it is all just ones and zeroes ...



If only that were true, life would be easier. Digital music is transmitted on an analogue waveform.

Regards
GG


----------



## Crgreen

Jawed said:


> With a DAC that isn't a Chord those audiophiles could easily be correct, because jitter is a problem for DACs, in general, it seems.
> 
> You should try optical with your DAVE sometime. Make sure to disconnect all other sources when you do.



With the greatest respect, when I read your posts I’m put in mind of that Todd Rundgren song: “Bang the Drum All Day”. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but repeating points so often doesn’t make them true.


----------



## doraymon

@Rob Watts can you tell us if you are using the stock power cord or a different one with Dave and if you are using ferrites on it?
Thanks and apologies if you have already provided this information in the past.


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes I just use the stock mains cables. I tried adding ferrites on the mains input, and could not hear a difference with the 300MHz types.... but Dave has crazy levels of power supply RF filtering and internal regulation.


----------



## doraymon

Yeah, same here.
I placed 20 of them on the stock power cord but can't tell the difference.
I would need a second stock power cord to A/B but I'm tired of running  the same 10 songs over and over again.
My wife has already asked me if I'm going cucu... LOL


----------



## jayz

What I don't understand is, why do we bother connecting laptops / PCs to Dave and worry about interference when one could get a dedicated source like Auralic Aries? Normal logic would suggest that the extra cost should be insignificant if you own a Dave. Not saying Aries is completely noise free but it would definitely be cleaner than a laptop.

Also, why is the EMI RFI discussion based around Optical vs USB. Has someone done an exhaustive test and concluded that BNC coax is not even worth considering? I ask because with my dedicated network player source, coax sounds better than optical (better depth and imaging) - this is Qutest but thought I'd ask on the Dave thread anyway.


----------



## elviscaprice (Apr 30, 2018)

jayz said:


> What I don't understand is, why do we bother connecting laptops / PCs to Dave and worry about interference when one could get a dedicated source like Auralic Aries? Normal logic would suggest that the extra cost should be insignificant if you own a Dave. Not saying Aries is completely noise free but it would definitely be cleaner than a laptop.
> 
> Also, why is the EMI RFI discussion based around Optical vs USB. Has someone done an exhaustive test and concluded that BNC coax is not even worth considering? I ask because with my dedicated network player source, coax sounds better than optical (better depth and imaging) - this is Qutest but thought I'd ask on the Dave thread anyway.



What, you don't think that Aries doesn't have a mobo in it?  Would rather pay more for someone else's server design/limitations?
It's just like ethernet a few years back, everyone thought it was the savior to noise reduced streaming.  How views change once we get into it.  There is no magical interface.  In order to get the best signal to the DAC, for best SQ, careful thought on power/clocking/isolation needs to be put in place.  Thus I choose to work on the one that gives me the most versatility in acceptance and format/software features.


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 30, 2018)

jayz said:


> What I don't understand is, why do we bother connecting laptops / PCs to Dave and worry about interference when one could get a dedicated source like Auralic Aries? Normal logic would suggest that the extra cost should be insignificant if you own a Dave.



Hi mate,

I'm not Rob of course but I'll share 3 key points Rob has taught me (I shared this previously). I'm sure the Guru will step in if I've misunderstood anything he's taught me!

From Rob:

_1. battery mode operation should mean no ground loops, so no current flow into the ground planes, then no RF noise pick-up in the DAC and so no problem… This has been validated by listening tests._

_2. As to external RF, it only matters if there is a ground loop, so battery operation should mean no currents flowing into the DAC ground plane…_

_3. We need current through the ground plane to set up voltages - and it is these voltages that the analogue electronics pick up. So no current, no voltage on the ground plane, no pick-up… The common mode noise, won’t affect the analogue electronics at all._

An Aries plugged into mains power will still provide a path (loop) for leakage currents to go through Dave (except for the Aries optical output of course). Block the leakage currents and you have no RF getting into the DAC (see above points).

Regarding the cost of Aries relative to Dave, recent findings by myself and @doraymon here (observations are just a few posts above) are that throwing more money at the source doesn't necessarily automatically result in better SQ. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. doraymon has a superb SMS-200 Ultra chain that would be close to as good as it gets for a mains connected USB source and he found the same as me - a battery based USB source sounded noticeably better. These are just our observations - nothing conclusive. I'm certainly no expert but my ears agree with Rob's facts/teachings.



jayz said:


> Not saying Aries is completely noise free but it would definitely be cleaner than a laptop.



A laptop running on battery (disconnected from mains power) completely blocks leakage currents getting into the DAC. See above regarding leakage currents and RF.



jayz said:


> Also, why is the EMI RFI discussion based around Optical vs USB. Has someone done an exhaustive test and concluded that BNC coax is not even worth considering? I ask because with my dedicated network player source, coax sounds better than optical (better depth and imaging)



All of Dave's inputs sound fantastic, so it's no surprise you're loving coax. The discussion of optical vs USB (recent) is because these are the 2 easiest inputs to compare which can block ALL leakage currents getting into the DAC.

With USB, just run the USB source (laptop or mobile source) off battery and you've got a very cheap way to hear the best of Rob's DACs at the maximum sample rates the DAC supports. It's usually free (or little cost if you need to get an adapter or cable) and easy to try.

A BNC source can block leakage currents too, but it's tricky finding a battery powered BNC source. It's easier to try a battery powered USB source, since we all have one, whether laptop or tablet or phone.

That's if you can be bothered trying all this stuff. I've now found what I think is the best SQ from Dave with my iPod Touch Roon Endpoint USB output for critical listening (running off battery, not plugged into the wall charger of course) and I'm just about done with testing and tweaking any more because I'm just about over it.

Listening to music is much more fun ! But it's been a fascinating experience learning from Rob (for me anyway).

I'm sure Rob's already worked out how to block 100% all leakage currents and RF from all inputs for Dave 2 in a few years. I'm not aware of any mains connected DAC on the planet yet that can block all leakage currents and RF on SPDIF (BNC and RCA) and USB and I2S etc inputs (except MAYBE  the Vinnie Rossi LIO integrated with DAC, since it is plugged into mains power but supposed to be mains isolated via Ultra Capacitor power banks although I would GUESS there is still some tiny amount of capacitive coupling there). No doubt because it's very very complicated stuff. But an optical source and battery powered USB source isn't complicated to try and get the same result (no leakage currents and RF into Dave).


----------



## jonstatt

The Aries G2 is a bit different as it has galvanic isolation of it’s DAC usb output. I suspect this would further help a mains powered streamer get closer to a battery powered source with DAVE.  It also means you don’t need all those ifi bits or isoregen cluttering things up.


----------



## jonstatt

Em2016 said:


> That's the one I recommended over in the Hugo2 thread and had working really nicely at 24/192kHz over Toslink, with both Mojo and Hugo2.
> 
> It won't work at 192kHz with Dave though. But if the 96kHz limit isn't an issue, it's a good buy.



Why is DAVE limited to 96 but not Hugo or Mojo? Isn’t that just down to choosing the right optical cable?


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 30, 2018)

jonstatt said:


> Why is DAVE limited to 96 but not Hugo or Mojo? Isn’t that just down to choosing the right optical cable?



Rob answered one possibility:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-714#post-14168546

Dave's optical input is a tad fussier than Hugo2 and Mojo in this regard. I really wish it was just down to choosing the right cable. The source is just as critical.

Get a Bluesound Node 2 and you can use the stock optical cable that comes with Dave at 24/192k. Same with an Oppo player (get em quick while they're still around). I can confirm these sources can work with the stock optical cable (tested them).

Earlier in this thread people have got their own cables to work with their existing sources, by cutting at them, to get them in deeper into the RX port. That's not an option I was interested in but it's working for some people.


----------



## jrfmd (Apr 30, 2018)

jonstatt said:


> Why is DAVE limited to 96 but not Hugo or Mojo? Isn’t that just down to choosing the right optical cable?


I assume everyone knows the dave can accept 192 from a macbook pro optical out if you set the output to 192 in the midi set up
of course apple discontinued the optical output on their current macbook pros but it remains that if the dave can accept 192 from a macbook pro it could accept optical 192 from other sources as well:  using an audioquest (?) "forest" cable -- nothing fancy


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 30, 2018)

jonstatt said:


> The Aries G2 is a bit different as it has galvanic isolation of it’s DAC usb output. I suspect this would further help a mains powered streamer get closer to a battery powered source with DAVE.  It also means you don’t need all those ifi bits or isoregen cluttering things up.



Yep closer but still not blocking the leakage currents the way Toslink and a battery powered USB source block leakage currents and RF completely.

I remember Rob's mentioned somewhere before that adding additional galvanic isolation (digital isolators and transformer isolation) to Dave's isolated USB input will roughly halve the capacitance.

Comparing the difference should be relatively easy, with a laptop, tablet, phone running off battery and not connected to the charger - but still there's no guarantee everyone will like the resulting sound quality too, and that's obviously ok too. Easy and cheap to try though. It's possible blocking leakage currents into Dave makes absolutely no difference to SQ for your system.


----------



## flyte3333

jrfmd said:


> of course apple discontinued the optical output on their current macbook pros



Yep here's the list of Mac models that support 192kHz via optical:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202730


----------



## jayz

Has anyone tried using Chord Poly as a source to Dave? It can be run from pure battery power and even better, no disk drives generating noise. 

Anyway, I just cannot get my head around the notion that a laptop disconnected from mains is a good source just because there is no ground loop. What about the many switch mode buck boost regulators in a laptop not to mention the hdd, display processor screen refresh clocks running in audible frequencies, etc. ?  Even ssds are noise generators compared to an sdcard right?

Someone has to come up with a way to measure these external factors completely and accurately. Can't measure reliably means can't improve, it's the basics right.


----------



## miketlse

jayz said:


> Has anyone tried using Chord Poly as a source to Dave? It can be run from pure battery power and even better, no disk drives generating noise.
> 
> Anyway, I just cannot get my head around the notion that a laptop disconnected from mains is a good source just because there is no ground loop. What about the many switch mode buck boost regulators in a laptop not to mention the hdd, display processor screen refresh clocks running in audible frequencies, etc. ?  Even ssds are noise generators compared to an sdcard right?
> 
> Someone has to come up with a way to measure these external factors completely and accurately. Can't measure reliably means can't improve, it's the basics right.


I think the difficulty is that Poly needs the USB voltage signal from Mojo to wake up. A recent post implied that afterwards you could switch the Poly output to other devices, but no one seems to have picked up on that point.
Anyway JF or RW did post a while back that the plan was for most Chord dacs to have their corresponding streamer.
The Poly was the first, and presumably the 2Go will be the second announced at the Hi end show in Munich. Maybe the future will be a standalone streamer, that can feed either the Hugo TT or DAVE - that could be very interesting for DAVE owners.


----------



## elviscaprice (Apr 30, 2018)

jayz said:


> Anyway, I just cannot get my head around the notion that a laptop disconnected from mains is a good source just because there is no ground loop. What about the many switch mode buck boost regulators in a laptop not to mention the hdd, display processor screen refresh clocks running in audible frequencies, etc. ?  Even ssds are noise generators compared to an sdcard right?
> 
> Someone has to come up with a way to measure these external factors completely and accurately. Can't measure reliably means can't improve, it's the basics right.



In my opinion, labtops make poor servers.  Battery power has it's own sound characteristic that I don't like.  Your going to have to experiment with different sources/interfaces, to draw your own impressions.  There is no free lunch.


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 30, 2018)

jayz said:


> Anyway, I just cannot get my head around the notion that a laptop disconnected from mains is a good source just because there is no ground loop. What about the many switch mode buck boost regulators in a laptop not to mention the hdd, display processor screen refresh clocks running in audible frequencies, etc. ? Even ssds are noise generators compared to an sdcard right?



Yup this is exactly why I said just a few posts earlier that this solution (or any solution) isn’t guaranteed to automatically sound good or best in everyone’s system.

I tried a little iPod Touch - by design they are power frugal.

The beauty is it’s probably free for most of us to try - we all have a laptop or mobile or tablet.

Blocking leakage  currents may be the lesser of the evils and it may not be. As I’ve said many times and @elviscaprice  mentioned just above, there’s no free lunch with any solution.

Just give it a crack and decide with your ears.

Even if there were some measurements post of some sort, each persons system is so different, there are so many different combinations of gear and they all interact differently.


----------



## jayz

miketlse said:


> I think the difficulty is that Poly needs the USB voltage signal from Mojo to wake up. A recent post implied that afterwards you could switch the Poly output to other devices, but no one seems to have picked up on that point.
> Anyway JF or RW did post a while back that the plan was for most Chord dacs to have their corresponding streamer.
> The Poly was the first, and presumably the 2Go will be the second announced at the Hi end show in Munich. Maybe the future will be a standalone streamer, that can feed either the Hugo TT or DAVE - that could be very interesting for DAVE owners.



I like the sound of this, hope we get to see Chord's next generation sources out soon. I would have liked a Poly-like front end + Scaler integrated into one unit but who knows. 

Considering some of the high level design decisions behind Poly, my view is we have a good chance of ending up with an ideal source or as close to it as possible. And I like the fact that RW and JF have the expertise and willingness to do designs that measure well in addition to sounding great. Basic principles say measurements that are repeatable (in this case done either by listening or using instruments) have the greatest contribution towards improvement. 

Anyway sorry for the diversion.. back to Dave...


----------



## seeteeyou

Is this $99 cable as good as Toslink by any chance?

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=16377


> SlimRun™ USB 3.0 is an active optical cable system designed to connect two USB-enabled devices with high performance, low power consumption, and low cost. Using optical fiber to replace copper wire as the high-speed signal transmission medium, SlimRun can perfectly transmit USB 3.0 (5Gbps) and USB 2.0 (480Mbps) to distances up to 150 feet.


----------



## flyte3333 (May 1, 2018)

seeteeyou said:


> Is this $99 cable as good as Toslink by any chance?
> 
> https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=16377



Nope if only it were that easy, power and ground aren't isolated.

It's similar to the infamous Corning Optical USB cable:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...le-experiences/?do=findComment&comment=416520

and

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...le-experiences/?do=findComment&comment=416676

If you want to isolate USB optically properly from mains power, this is what you need to step up to:

http://www.icron.com/products/icron-brand/usb-extenders/fiber/usb-2-0-ranger-2344/

But it's only perfectly isolated from mains power if the DAC side (receiver) unit's power supply is also isolated (battery powered).

Here is another fiber option, which still needs the received unit's power supply (DAC side) to be isolated from mains power (like a battery):

http://www.adnaco.com/products/s3a/

It turns into a royal pain in the a$$ to optically isolate a USB source.

So much easier to use a laptop or mobile source running on battery. But not always practical obviously.


----------



## seeteeyou

Em2016 said:


> So much easier to use a laptop or mobile source running on battery. But not always practical obviously.


What about another "RF noise generator" from a mobile source called Wi-Fi? It's still there whether we're powering that with batteries or not.

If both laptop and DAC were fairly close to where we sit, we could still walk to and from the laptop whenever we need to change songs since the screen is relatively large. Though it kinda sucks if we're using a mobile source while both screen size and internal storage are so small.

Android devices could still be connected via Ethernet cables but the reviews seemed to be a mixed bag

https://www.amazon.com/Smays-Ethernet-compatible-Raspbian-Raspberry/dp/B00L32UUJK


----------



## flyte3333 (May 1, 2018)

seeteeyou said:


> What about another "RF noise generator" from a mobile source called Wi-Fi? It's still there whether we're powering that with batteries or not.



I've copied these points from Rob multiple times the last few pages, so I guess one more time won't hurt. I guess nobody reads them 

From Rob:

_1. battery mode operation should mean no ground loops, so no current flow into the ground planes, then no RF noise pick-up in the DAC and so no problem… This has been validated by listening tests._

_2. *As to external RF, it only matters if there is a ground loop, so battery operation should mean no currents flowing into the DAC ground plane…*_

_3. We need current through the ground plane to set up voltages - and it is these voltages that the analogue electronics pick up. So no current, no voltage on the ground plane, no pick-up… The common mode noise, won’t affect the analogue electronics at all._


----------



## marcmccalmont

seeteeyou said:


> What about another "RF noise generator" from a mobile source called Wi-Fi? It's still there whether we're powering that with batteries or not.
> 
> If both laptop and DAC were fairly close to where we sit, we could still walk to and from the laptop whenever we need to change songs since the screen is relatively large. Though it kinda sucks if we're using a mobile source while both screen size and internal storage are so small.
> 
> ...


That is one of the reasons I like a purpose built device like an Aurender they have thought trough the issues like an Ethernet connection for control, reading files from a ssd, very low jitter/phase noise outputs etc all in one box


----------



## seeteeyou

"Should" we take those words seriously when the word "should" appeared twice in a row?

If breaking a ground loop were actually all we need to do, maybe we "should" simply spend 50 bucks and call it a day?

https://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-idefender3-0/
https://www.amazon.com/iDefender3-0-USB-Ground-Loop-Eliminator/dp/B01N3XKOLG


----------



## marcmccalmont

seeteeyou said:


> "Should" we take those words seriously when the word "should" appeared twice in a row?
> 
> If breaking a ground loop were actually all we need to do, maybe we "should" simply spend 50 bucks and call it a day?
> 
> ...


Actually I am using one between my Aurender n100h and Hugo2 a small improvement to my ear. I will try a usb to toslink converter too see which works better


----------



## flyte3333 (May 1, 2018)

seeteeyou said:


> "Should" we take those words seriously when the word "should" appeared twice in a row?
> 
> If breaking a ground loop were actually all we need to do, maybe we "should" simply spend 50 bucks and call it a day?
> 
> ...



Ah, now we're getting deeper into the weeds.

This won't block all leakage currents (and their loops) the way optical and battery PSU's do. I've posted links to John Swenson posts on this a few pages ago too, explaining these leakage current loops and their link to RF. Do check them out if you're interested. It links directly to Rob's points above.

Battery PSU's blocks leakage current loops (there's zero connection to mains power) and so does optical.

Dave sounds fantastic on all inputs with no tinkering needed. But my own tinkering has found even better performance squeezed by blocking all leakage currents getting into/through Dave (or any DAC on the planet) - no need for ferrites either if you can block this leakage loop, for the reasons Rob mentions in the those 3 points I posted - no RF getting into Dave.

And as Rob himself has said, RF (linked closely with leakage currents) is like a fungus if it gets into the DAC.


----------



## Articnoise

Em2016 said:


> Yup this is exactly why I said just a few posts earlier that this solution (or any solution) isn’t guaranteed to automatically sound good or best in everyone’s system.
> 
> I tried a little iPod Touch - by design they are power frugal.
> 
> ...



Yep there’s no free lunch, but some meal can be culinary pleasures while others are just fast food that may cure your starvation then you are in a hurry. Therefore choose your lunch wisely – you only live once.


----------



## flyte3333

Articnoise said:


> Yep there’s no free lunch, but some meal can be culinary pleasures while others are just fast food that may cure your starvation then you are in a hurry. Therefore choose your lunch wisely – you only live once.



Absolutely and Dave is one pleasure (of many) that everyone has to enjoy at some point in their life


----------



## doraymon

What we have been discussing on this thread is very interesting but also very complex for non pros like me.
Hans Beekhuyzen has a nice channel on YouTube where he talks, among other things, of what he calls "Audio Hygiene".
The idea is that you don't need to graduate in medicine to be able to learn a number of "Hygiene Rules" to preserve your health.
It would be nice to for us to have a book with "Audio Hygiene" rules that cover the largest possible issues deteriorating the sound quality of our Dave.
Any volunteers? Rob?


----------



## Articnoise

Em2016 said:


> Absolutely and Dave is one pleasure (of many) that everyone has to enjoy at some point in their life



Great that you fund something that you truly enjoy and that put a smile on your face, even if it’s not exactly free but OTOH there’s no free lunch – so rock on .


----------



## yellowblue

What about balanced power conditioners to solve the problem of ground-loop current?
Like this 
https://www.plixirpower.com/products/elite-bac-400
_"It uses a custom single-winding balanced power transformer to reduce ground-loop current and noise to negligible levels, making the PLiXir Elite BAC the ideal pick for electrically sensitive equipment"_
I own it and I like what I hear.


----------



## Thenewguy007 (May 1, 2018)

yellowblue said:


> What about balanced power conditioners to solve the problem of ground-loop current?
> Like this
> https://www.plixirpower.com/products/elite-bac-400
> _"It uses a custom single-winding balanced power transformer to reduce ground-loop current and noise to negligible levels, making the PLiXir Elite BAC the ideal pick for electrically sensitive equipment"_
> I own it and I like what I hear.



I haven't used that, but have used isolators & power conditioners & they didn't really lower the noise floor or do any significant sound changes (other than maybe for the worse).

Anyone try Grounding blocks?
Entreq & a few sell criminally overpriced ones. There top range one is like 9 grand for what essentially is a plain wooden box with dirt inside it.


----------



## doraymon

Thenewguy007 said:


> I haven't used that, but have used isolators & power conditioners & they didn't really lower the noise floor or do any significant sound changes (other than maybe for the worse).


This is really interesting. I'm wondering if my Consonance PW-1 filters are doing a similar effect and I never realised it...
They've been a trusted part of my system for a long time and I never bothered removing them to check the effect.


----------



## flyte3333 (May 1, 2018)

For those not using Roon and looking to try streaming from computer to a mobile to Dave DAC over WiFi, I've tested the Neutron Music Player which is available for both iOS and Android...

And it turns your mobile device into a UPnP renderer/endpoint.

One thing I was concerned about is if it's capable as a bit perfect endpoint, because there's all sorts of DSP settings in the app and no simple 'DSP off' switch, the way Roon has.

While I'd personally prefer MQA go away, one very cool thing is you can use it as a bit perfect testing tool. I happened to have a used Explorer2 lying around and it finally came in useful 

So playing from Audirvana (a Tidal MQA 353kHz album), to the Neutron Music Player over WiFi, if the entire chain up to the Explorer2 input was not bit perfect, then the infamous blue light wouldn't turn on.

But yes, I get the blue light so can conclude Neutron is a great bit perfect UPnP endpoint. It takes a bit of tweaking in the settings though, to turn off all the DSP settings.

The Explorer2 can't be powered by an iPhone or Android phone alone since they only supply 100mA power, but with the iPhone being charged by a 2.1A powerbank, no problems connecting to the iPhone.

So there you go, one practical use of MQA is a bit perfect playback testing tool, if you find a used Explorer2 on eBay like I did !

A DSD256 album from NativeDSD.com is another good way to test for bit perfect playback also (and test your WiFi network) played to a mobile and via DoP to Dave. If the chain isn't capable of bit perfect playback, you'll get dropouts with Dave with DoP.


----------



## Gomiki

Rob Watts said:


> There are actually two independent issues going on with DSD that limits the musicality - and they are interlinked problems.
> 
> The first issue is down to the resolving power of DSD. Now a DSD works by using a noise shaper, and a noise shaper is a feedback system. Indeed, you can think of an analogue amplifier as a first order noise shaper - so you have a subtraction input stage that compares the input to the output, followed by a gain stage that integrates the error. With a delta sigma noise shaper its exactly the same, but where the output stage is truncated to reduce the noise shaper output resolution so it can drive the OP - in the case of DSD its one bit, +1 or -1 op stage. But you use multiple gain stages connected together so you have n integrators - typically 5 for DSD. Now the number of integrators, together with the time constants will determine how much error correction you have within the system - and the time constants are primarily set by the over-sample rate of the noise shaper. Double the oversampling frequency and with a 5th order ideal system (i.e. one that does not employ resonators or other tricks to improve HF noise) it converges on a 30 dB improvement in distortion and noise.
> 
> ...



Help me guys..

After listening  Rob about the inherent problems in DSD that limit his musicality and that makes him flawed from the beginning, I have a doubt, I understand that any PCM file obtained from a DSD source carries this same problem implicitly, ... right?  Then,  the difference between these files (DSD vs PCM from DSD source) would be only the resolution..? We must then get files recorded natively in PCM to get the best out of Dave ..?

Thanks for clarifying it...


----------



## SCBob

Gomiki said:


> Help me guys..
> 
> After listening  Rob about the inherent problems in DSD that limit his musicality and that makes him flawed from the beginning, I have a doubt, I understand that any PCM file obtained from a DSD source carries this same problem implicitly, ... right?  Then,  the difference between these files (DSD vs PCM from DSD source) would be only the resolution..? We must then get files recorded natively in PCM to get the best out of Dave ..?
> 
> Thanks for clarifying it...


Will a PCM recordings at red book 44/16 sound the same as the 176/24 and other hi-res versions when played through DAVE?


----------



## lovethatsound

SCBob said:


> Will a PCM recordings at red book 44/16 sound the same as the 176/24 and other hi-res versions when played through DAVE?


No,it will sound even better.


----------



## Jawed

So, if M scaler in a Hugo TT type chassis is likely to happen then it also seems like a power pulse array in a Hugo TT type chassis (like TToby) could make for a nice pairing: 2-box M scaler that drives speakers with upto 50W per channel...

It would be amazing if you could get this 2-box system for about the same cost as DAVE. With the option to "double" the power with a second power pulse array amplifier...

Now playing: RY X - Deliverance


----------



## ecwl

Thenewguy007 said:


> Anyone try Grounding blocks?
> Entreq & a few sell criminally overpriced ones. There top range one is like 9 grand for what essentially is a plain wooden box with dirt inside it.


My local dealer brought in the Nordost grounding system once and it improved his system which consisted of the Cocktail X50 streamer, Chord DAVE and an amplifier (I can’t remember whether it was Krell or Sanders or something else at the time). However, we found out later that the Cocktail X50 is not grounded so while he was making grounding cables for my router and NAS, he made a grounding wire for the X50 and the demo Nordost grounding set is long gone. But I can say the vast majority of improvements of the Nordost grounding system probably came from grounding the X50 to reduce the leakage current noise. btw, everything was plugged into the same Nordost power bar.


----------



## rayl

Gomiki said:


> Help me guys..
> 
> After listening  Rob about the inherent problems in DSD that limit his musicality and that makes him flawed from the beginning, I have a doubt, I understand that any PCM file obtained from a DSD source carries this same problem implicitly, ... right?  Then,  the difference between these files (DSD vs PCM from DSD source) would be only the resolution..? We must then get files recorded natively in PCM to get the best out of Dave ..?
> 
> Thanks for clarifying it...



I asked a similar question several months back when deciding whether to go all-in on Chord and add a Blu2 or not.  (I did.)

My question was, to paraphrase -- a pure DSD recording... with pure DSD processing... how can anyone argue that going to PCM and then to DAC will be better than a good DSD DAC based on the merits of PCM over DSD?

I believe there were some replies around the issue, but I would have to say the answer is -- if you are in pure DSD land, then that is a tough argument to make.

However, other than specialty productions targeted at the SACD market, most other commercial music has been processed in PCM on a DAW already, so going back to DSD would have the detriments you quoted.

In my research, I could only identify two DAWs that process in pure DSD -- Sony (father of DSD) Sonoma and Merging Pyramix. Every other DAW I research may have DSD capability but actually convert into PCM.

So I concluded that unless I go out of my way to find a demo SACD or demo DSD file, none of the music I actually listen to avoids an existence in the PCM world.... Thus, a system optimized for PCM works just fine for me!


----------



## ecwl

rayl said:


> My question was, to paraphrase -- a pure DSD recording... with pure DSD processing... how can anyone argue that going to PCM and then to DAC will be better than a good DSD DAC based on the merits of PCM over DSD? ...
> In my research, I could only identify two DAWs that process in pure DSD -- Sony (father of DSD) Sonoma and Merging Pyramix. Every other DAW I research may have DSD capability but actually convert into PCM...
> So I concluded that unless I go out of my way to find a demo SACD or demo DSD file, none of the music I actually listen to avoids an existence in the PCM world...


I think that's one way to look at it. But as I use my Chord DACs more and more, and re-read what Rob Watts said and thought about it, I would present a different argument.
If most music is recorded in PCM, then why don't we all play music using ladder DACs because those are the values that the PCM recordings got.
Except that is the wrong way to think about DSD or PCM... DSD or PCM in the recording space is supposed to sample the analog music. The role of the DAC is not to play the samples back but to re-construct the original analog waveform. That's why Rob Watts doesn't program his Chord DACs just to a non-oversampling filter and play the PCM samples back at 44kHz. He uses as many taps as possible to upsample the PCM signal into much higher frequencies to reconstruct the original analog waveform.
Similarly, although it always sounds like playing DSD signals natively using a DSD/PWM DAC would be the most natural thing to do, because you're avoiding additional noise that would be generated from additional electronics, it is also suboptimal in some ways. In an ideal world, we would want to be able to take the DSD sampling signals and be able to upsample them and reconstruct the original analog waveform at higher frequencies. It is also why many DSD DACs would actually upsample standard DSD64 signals to DSD128 or DSD256 for playback. So in my mind, DAVE DSD+ mode/Blu2/Hugo 2 are doing the same thing with DSD files using the Chord DAC technology.


----------



## Rob Watts

ecwl said:


> I think that's one way to look at it. But as I use my Chord DACs more and more, and re-read what Rob Watts said and thought about it, I would present a different argument.
> If most music is recorded in PCM, then why don't we all play music using ladder DACs because those are the values that the PCM recordings got.
> Except that is the wrong way to think about DSD or PCM... DSD or PCM in the recording space is supposed to sample the analog music. The role of the DAC is not to play the samples back but to re-construct the original analog waveform. That's why Rob Watts doesn't program his Chord DACs just to a non-oversampling filter and play the PCM samples back at 44kHz. He uses as many taps as possible to upsample the PCM signal into much higher frequencies to reconstruct the original analog waveform.
> Similarly, although it always sounds like playing DSD signals natively using a DSD/PWM DAC would be the most natural thing to do, because you're avoiding additional noise that would be generated from additional electronics, it is also suboptimal in some ways. In an ideal world, we would want to be able to take the DSD sampling signals and be able to upsample them and reconstruct the original analog waveform at higher frequencies. It is also why many DSD DACs would actually upsample standard DSD64 signals to DSD128 or DSD256 for playback. So in my mind, DAVE DSD+ mode/Blu2/Hugo 2 are doing the same thing with DSD files using the Chord DAC technology.



I like this post, as I hadn't thought of the DSD filtering that I do in the same way. Of course, the WTA filter is trying to reconstruct the original analogue signal, and the same is true with my DSD filters - trying to get back to the original analogue signal without the hideous out of band RF noise and nth order harmonics distortion (and anharmonic too) that DSD introduces. The benefit the PCM has though, if it is an ideal bandwidth limited signal, then an infinite amount of processing will perfectly recover the original analogue waveform in-between the samples. Not so with DSD - the timing errors with amplitude can never be repaired, as information is permanently lost by the DSD noise shaper(s).

A common strand with audio is to make things as simple as possible. And in analogue design, this almost always works - a simple number of components will sound more transparent than a larger number (assuming that everything else is equal, noise floor modulation and distortion of course). But the digital domain is different, in that vast amounts of processing can radically improve the sound quality (assuming of course that the data path is capable of perfectly reproducing -301dB or better than 64 bit in-band accuracy!)

In Hugo 1's time, I got a lot of flak for admitting that DSD was filtered. Now the original DSD filter was good, in that it gave better SQ - but with the DSD+ mode I realised the original filter was not good enough. Hence the Hugo 2 DSD filter, which is even better in it's performance; so much now that I am not so vigorously against DSD as before. But I still easily prefer redbook, and you can't get away from the fundamental and huge technical problems that DSD has - problems that can't ever be eliminated.


----------



## marcmccalmont

An interesting read
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital


----------



## doraymon

Fellas, a little help to properly set up my Roon connection with Dave.
Roon Core is running on a Mac mini connected via ethernet to the router.
Dave is connected to my MacBook Pro (Late 2013) through a Sys.Concept Toslink to Mini cable. The MacBook is running on battery and is connected to the network via WiFi.

I managed to "force" Roon to recognise the Dave in the Device Setup / Audio Device menu, so at list I got the right icon with Dave's silhouette!
Please have a look below and let me know if you have better suggestions.

Device Setup:
- Private Zone: NO
- Exclusive Mode: YES
- DSD Playback Strategy: DSD over PCM v1.0 (DoP)
- Volume Control: Fixed Volume
- Volume Limits: Volume is Fixed
- Resync Delay: 0ms

Advanced Device Setup:
Max Sample Rate (PCM): Up to 192kHz (this is the highest available on the menu, is that only because of the optical connection or I'm doing something wrong?)
Max Bits Per Sample (PCM): 32
Zone Grouping Delay (ms): 0.00
Clock Master Priority: Default (what is that???)
Enable MQA Core Decoder: YES
Enable Integer Mode: YES
Force Max Volume At Playback Start: YES
Use Maximum Buffer Size: NO
Use Power-of-2 Buffer Sizes: NO
Multichannel Mixing: Downmix As Needed


----------



## Jawed

ecwl said:


> If most music is recorded in PCM [...]


Isn't it decades since music ADCs changed to be based on delta-sigma (sigma-delta) or multi-bit delta-sigma?

DSD's sample rate, when it was introduced, seems to have been too low. If it had been 4x, would we be having this discussion?


----------



## marcmccalmont (May 5, 2018)

Jawed said:


> Isn't it decades since music ADCs changed to be based on delta-sigma (sigma-delta) or multi-bit delta-sigma?
> 
> DSD's sample rate, when it was introduced, seems to have been too low. If it had been 4x, would we be having this discussion?


I think the point is delta sigma (dsd) is flawed in its basic concept, not that it doesn’t sound good it does but it can never be as accurate as pcm. PCM is like building a car by taking every measurement from a reference line, if your precision is .001in every sample is accurate to .001 in so your car is built to a tolerance of .002 in, not bad! If every part is measured from the last part after 1000 measurements your car is accurate to about a foot! Hmm one car is 15’ long the next is 17’ long not so good. My understanding of the development of delta sigma DACs was driven by Japanese companies that did not want to pay royalties to Burr Brown who held the patents on PCM


----------



## rayl

Jawed said:


> Isn't it decades since music ADCs changed to be based on delta-sigma (sigma-delta) or multi-bit delta-sigma?
> 
> DSD's sample rate, when it was introduced, seems to have been too low. If it had been 4x, would we be having this discussion?



Yes to the ADC part.  Hence, my earlier reservation.  But the total number of pure DSD (through post-production, through the file/CD I have) songs I have based on information I can find on the jackets, etc... well, one demo SACD from PS Audio produced on Sonoma.

There were more when SACDs were more heavily marketed, but as I am one of those primarily "modern" music listeners (how many plugins are avail on Sonoma vs on more prevalent DAWs?), I can defer further exploration and be happy with the best PCM system there is!


----------



## Mython

rayl said:


> Yes to the ADC part.  Hence, my earlier reservation.  But the total number of pure DSD (through post-production, through the file/CD I have) songs I have based on information I can find on the jackets, etc... well, one demo SACD from PS Audio produced on Sonoma.
> 
> There were more when SACDs were more heavily marketed, but *as I am one of those primarily "modern" music listeners* (how many plugins are avail on Sonoma vs on more prevalent DAWs?),* I can defer further exploration and be happy with the best PCM system there is!*




Not being_ 100% _serious, here_, _your above comment reminded me of the so-called _'Serenity prayer' _popularly adopted by AA_:_



> "grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
> Courage to change the things I can,
> And wisdom to know the difference"




Then again, others contend:



> "Wisdom is recognising a mistake when you make it again"




Personally, I'm very content with Redbook recordings, and I hope when the day comes that I can afford one of Rob's TOTL DACs, I won't have a reason to change my mind about Redbook.


----------



## flyte3333

Having spent


doraymon said:


> Fellas, a little help to properly set up my Roon connection with Dave.
> Roon Core is running on a Mac mini connected via ethernet to the router.
> Dave is connected to my MacBook Pro (Late 2013) through a Sys.Concept Toslink to Mini cable. The MacBook is running on battery and is connected to the network via WiFi.
> 
> ...



Everything looks perfect. Those are the settings for bit perfect playback.


----------



## Jawed

marcmccalmont said:


> I think the point is delta sigma (dsd) is flawed in its basic concept [...]


For making a recording, at say 11.3MHz sampling rate (256x 44.1KHz)? I doubt that's true.

All modern recordings are derived from multi-bit delta-sigma ADCs as far as I can tell, though getting evidence for the actual functioning of the ADC (not the format that it outputs) seems to be quite hard.

Do you mean that single-bit delta-sigma is flawed? Regardless of sample rate?

Has Rob built a 24-bit 16FS PCM converter for Davina that doesn't start with delta-sigma conversion from analogue?


----------



## marcmccalmont

Jawed said:


> For making a recording, at say 11.3MHz sampling rate (256x 44.1KHz)? I doubt that's true.
> 
> All modern recordings are derived from multi-bit delta-sigma ADCs as far as I can tell, though getting evidence for the actual functioning of the ADC (not the format that it outputs) seems to be quite hard.
> 
> ...


I’m not a EE or a digital expert but in my way of thinking the most accurate systems reference a common point whether 0 voltage or a centerline in a drawing this is basic engineering that I was made aware or in my first year as a ME student. Any system that references a previous measurement or sample is inherently less accurate. How multibit delta sigma overcomes this basic premise is beyond my math but I assume it is a technique to push noise and distortion higher in frequency but does not solve this fundamental issue?


----------



## Rob Watts

Jawed said:


> For making a recording, at say 11.3MHz sampling rate (256x 44.1KHz)? I doubt that's true.
> 
> All modern recordings are derived from multi-bit delta-sigma ADCs as far as I can tell, though getting evidence for the actual functioning of the ADC (not the format that it outputs) seems to be quite hard.
> 
> ...



There is a fundamental difference between a 1 bit delta sigma and an N bit delta sigma. The problem is the noise shaper for DSD has levels of -1 and +1. Now when it's reproducing 0 it is fine - the output oscillates between +1 and -1. But the instance that it goes slightly positive, or slightly negative, then the natural sequence is for the noise shaper to occasionally request +2, which is not allowed. As the signal gets more positive, then the desire to go to +2 gets larger; eventually it goes unstable. So the noise shaper behaviour is constantly signal dependent. But an N bit noise shaper has no such limitation as the behaviour of the noise shaper is independent of input signal. The other issue is switching activity; a fundamental flaw of DSD is the switching activity is also signal dependent; with an N bit noise shaper, it's possible to design the activity rate to be signal independent. Again, this is a fundamental flaw, as noise in the DAC which is used in the ADC return path is signal dependent as switching activity modulates the OP - and this in turn creates noise floor modulation. Both these situations exist irrespective of OP frequency.

Another couple of issues - timing of transients is amplitude dependent (small step changes have different times to big step changes) and it's impossible to achieve the required 350db noise shaper performance that my listening tests have shown is needed for depth perception. Both of these issues are solved by an appropriate use of a noise shaper architecture and N bit depth and noise shaper output frequency.

Davina is a N bit delta sigma with a pulse array reference DAC for the ADC return path, and of course has none of the above issues - 400 db noise shaper performance, delay times independent of signal amplitude, and constant noise shaper activity rate, plus pulse array's signal independent switching activity. All these issues will ensure no noise floor modulation, and accurate depth reproduction... You can't do this with DSD at any OP rate.


----------



## Jawed

Rob Watts said:


> Davina is a N bit delta sigma with a pulse array reference DAC for the ADC return path, and of course has none of the above issues - 400 db noise shaper performance, delay times independent of signal amplitude, and constant noise shaper activity rate, plus pulse array's signal independent switching activity. All these issues will ensure no noise floor modulation, and accurate depth reproduction... You can't do this with DSD at any OP rate.


So the pulse array in Davina has better noise-shaping than seen in DAVE? More than 20 elements? It's running at 2048FS?

Presumably there is an opportunity with Davina to use a better WTA filter for upsampling 16FS to 256FS. But you then risk adding more latency in the return path, I suppose.

Alternatively, I suppose there's an opportunity to upsample from 16FS to 1024FS with a WTA filter, instead of only up to 256FS?

Now playing: King Creosote, John Hopkins - John Taylor's Month Away


----------



## flyte3333 (May 6, 2018)

I've whipped out my Frankenstein setup for the weekend - battery powered microRendu v1.4 and battery powered optical-to-ethernet converters feeding the microRendu.

Battery powered doesn't mean Uptone LPS-1. I mean proper battery powered.

Although it's a pain in the a$$ to setup, this is even better than my battery powered wireless USB source.

Dave is driving my AEON closed (thanks for the recommendation @Rob Watts ) directly, so there's no leakage loops involved.

Both are outputting bit perfect playback. Since both USB sources fully break leakage current loops, there's no RF to worry about.

But the battery powered microRendu still sounds smoother. It's only a difference I can pick after a couple hours of listening.

I can only imagine it's the superior signal integrity of the microRendu versus the iPod Touch.

I thought I knew this album back to front, inside out, but have never heard it like this:


----------



## jonstatt

Rob Watts said:


> In Hugo 1's time, I got a lot of flak for admitting that DSD was filtered. Now the original DSD filter was good, in that it gave better SQ - but with the DSD+ mode I realised the original filter was not good enough. Hence the Hugo 2 DSD filter, which is even better in it's performance; so much now that I am not so vigorously against DSD as before. But I still easily prefer redbook, and you can't get away from the fundamental and huge technical problems that DSD has - problems that can't ever be eliminated.



I am slightly confused by this paragraph @Rob Watts ! Do you mean the DSD filtering in DAVE is better than the original Hugo but Hugo 2 is even better? What about Blu2?


----------



## Crgreen

jonstatt said:


> I am slightly confused by this paragraph @Rob Watts ! Do you mean the DSD filtering in DAVE is better than the original Hugo but Hugo 2 is even better? What about Blu2?



Blu2 converts DSD to PCM.


----------



## delirium

Finaly got dave!! How long for playing it in? Thanks. Also got new utopia....


----------



## Triode User

delirium said:


> Finaly got dave!! How long for playing it in? Thanks. Also got new utopia....



Amazing. Well done. 

All have different views but I say switch it on and you are good to go and it’s sound will not change. 

Your ears and brains perception of the sound might change over time as you get used to it (and by quite a lot).

Have fun, your are in for some good listening!


----------



## JaZZ

delirium said:


> Finaly got dave!! How long for playing it in? Thanks. Also got new utopia....


Congrats, and welcome to the Club!

Mine sounded great from the start, but I found the treble to be slightly enhanced or rather separated from the rest during the first two days, an issue that's completely disappeared after that. Later I read Rob Watts' comparison between his used unit and a brand new one, which sounded exactly the same to his ears. So maybe I have to accept that it was all just in my mind. After all the phenomenon is real, as it doesn't just happen to me...


----------



## delirium

Thanks!! But utopia needs some break in i think.. does not sound like in shop? Playing time......


----------



## marcmccalmont

delirium said:


> Thanks!! But utopia needs some break in i think.. does not sound like in shop? Playing time......


My Utopias took over 2 weeks to break in


----------



## delirium

marcmccalmont said:


> My Utopias took over 2 weeks to break in


Thanks! Will report back!!!


----------



## delirium

delirium said:


> Thanks! Will report back!!!


What happend with the sound after 2 weaks bro???


----------



## marcmccalmont

delirium said:


> What happend with the sound after 2 weaks bro???


Tha bass filled in transients improved


----------



## delirium

marcmccalmont said:


> Tha bass filled in transients improved


Sounds gooooood to me.....


----------



## jonstatt

Crgreen said:


> Blu2 converts DSD to PCM.



I thought all Chord DACs convert DSD to PCM internally to apply the filtering...


----------



## lovethatsound

delirium said:


> Thanks!! But utopia needs some break in i think.. does not sound like in shop? Playing time......


You just have to give yourself some time to get used to them,stay with the cable that came with the utopia,it's a good one,and sounds fantastic with the DAVE.


----------



## GryphonGuy

jonstatt said:


> I thought all Chord DACs convert DSD to PCM internally to apply the filtering...



My understanding is that on my DAVE, at least, there are 2 filters; One for DSD and the WTA for PCM. Hence the filter switch for DSD+ and PCM and the delay in processing whilst each filter loads into the memory before execution can begin.

Of course I could have the wrong end of the stick but I hope not.

Regards
GG


----------



## rayl

jonstatt said:


> I thought all Chord DACs convert DSD to PCM internally to apply the filtering...



The DSD mode on DAVE is completely non-decimating for DSD inputs.  This has been stated on this thread somewhere but also in the manual itself:

"PCM+ - Use this for PCM playback up to 768KHz. DSD playback up to DSD256 is also supported but it is decimated and not optimised in this mode.

DSD+ - Use this for DSD64, 128, and 256 (single, dual and quad speed) playback. There is no decimation. PCM can still be played and this mode is ideal for streaming video with audio as it has a lower delay"


----------



## Rob Watts

jonstatt said:


> I am slightly confused by this paragraph @Rob Watts ! Do you mean the DSD filtering in DAVE is better than the original Hugo but Hugo 2 is even better? What about Blu2?



Yes technically it is better in that the filtering is greater than 200dB at 88.2kHz - so less out of band distortion and noise, and a warmer more natural SQ. But it still decimates. I prefer it to the DSD+ mode on Dave, which is why this new filter is used on Blu 2.



JaZZ said:


> Congrats, and welcome to the Club!
> 
> Mine sounded great from the start, but I found the treble to be slightly enhanced or rather separated from the rest during the first two days, an issue that's completely disappeared after that. Later I read Rob Watts' comparison between his used unit and a brand new one, which sounded exactly the same to his ears. So maybe I have to accept that it was all just in my mind. After all the phenomenon is real, as it doesn't just happen to me...



I have had about 8 units (different prototype PCB's) and couldn't say I ever heard changes that I could put down to hardware break-in. But many times I would hear a change one month in with new code on old units; this I put down to brain break-in - most common being he sense of the soundstage opening up with deeper depth. Having said all that, all brand new units had a lot of measurements done beforehand, so would have clocked up 8 hours or more before listening. 



jonstatt said:


> I thought all Chord DACs convert DSD to PCM internally to apply the filtering...



Yes they do. But this conversion in the M scaler is done by the new Hugo 2 DSD filter, so it always outputs 705.6 kHz PCM from DSD64-DSD512.


----------



## hattrick15

Rob Watts said:


> Yes they do. But this conversion in the M scaler is done by the new Hugo 2 DSD filter, so it always outputs 705.6 kHz PCM from DSD64-DSD512.



Does this mean that I should set the DAVE to PCM+ mode when using with the Blu2 when playing DSD files?


----------



## jonstatt

hattrick15 said:


> Does this mean that I should set the DAVE to PCM+ mode when using with the Blu2 when playing DSD files?


 I don’t think so because it is already PCM by the time it reaches DAVE and I believe no further filtering takes place. However Rob did mention that the HF filter on Dave is best set to Off when in use with Blu 2


----------



## tunes

jonstatt said:


> I don’t think so because it is already PCM by the time it reaches DAVE and I believe no further filtering takes place. However Rob did mention that the HF filter on Dave is best set to Off when in use with Blu 2


Why is the volume on DAVE in negative dB for lower output rather than just making no sound at zero??


----------



## tunes

maxh22 said:


> Hmmm.. I thought you said you were looking for a new battery powered transport since your DAP cannot stream music?
> 
> "So now I am looking for a battery transport and storage device to connect to DAVE via optical since can still get a 15 foot Toslink cable that will work across the room and eliminate all the fuss over EMI noise, ferrites and mains issues."
> 
> ...


Does the MSI LAPTOP play music files from solid state storage or an internal hard drive.   The spinning drive without a solid state buffer will introduce noise won’t it?


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> Does the MSI LAPTOP play music files from solid state storage or an internal hard drive.   The spinning drive without a solid state buffer will introduce noise won’t it?



I thought that SSD drives can also introduce electrical noise. Indeed a I have a vague recollection that good internal hard drives (ie spinning) can be better than SSD. 

Can anyone enlighten me?  Thanks.


----------



## maxh22 (May 8, 2018)

tunes said:


> Does the MSI LAPTOP play music files from solid state storage or an internal hard drive.   The spinning drive without a solid state buffer will introduce noise won’t it?





Triode User said:


> I thought that SSD drives can also introduce electrical noise. Indeed a I have a vague recollection that good internal hard drives (ie spinning) can be better than SSD.
> 
> Can anyone enlighten me?  Thanks.



I mostly stream files from Tidal but I did have about 100 songs stored on the built in NVME SSD, later I moved the songs to a 64 gb SD card which gave a slight improvement in sound quality. Most last gen MSI laptops come with an SD card reader which turned out to be very handy, but they recently removed it from the just released MSI laptops but thankfully kept the toslink output.

I use to read a lot of Romaz's posts so I do recall him saying on his blog at computer audiophile that he thought playing music from an SD card sounded the best.

His preference:
SD card> NVME SSD> first or second gen SSD> HDD>modern SSD.


----------



## TheAttorney

Triode User said:


> I thought that SSD drives can also introduce electrical noise. Indeed a I have a vague recollection that good internal hard drives (ie spinning) can be better than SSD.
> .


From memory of various romaz posts on his servers thread, both SSD and spinning drives introduce RFI/EMI/etc noise, and SSD can introduce more such noise than spinning drives, and the faster (more recent) SSDs introduce more such noise than the slower older SSDs.

Personally, I'll be sticking with SSDs for my next server, as I can't stand the physical noise of any moving parts. And hope that the designer applies the necessary SATA filters etc to minimise that RFI noise.


----------



## maxh22 (May 8, 2018)

TheAttorney said:


> From memory of various romaz posts on his servers thread, both SSD and spinning drives introduce RFI/EMI/etc noise, and SSD can introduce more such noise than spinning drives, and the faster (more recent) SSDs introduce more such noise than the slower older SSDs.
> 
> Personally, I'll be sticking with SSDs for my next server, as I can't stand the physical noise of any moving parts. And hope that the designer applies the necessary SATA filters etc to minimise that RFI noise.



Yes that's all true to varying degrees. After comparing files being played back on an NVME SSD and a Samsung 850 EVO I prefer the NVME SSD since it sounds more relaxed and open, the SD card is better but there is a larger delta between the NVME SSD and the 850 EVO then an SD card and NVME SSD. Since NVME SSD's have gone down in price over the years its more affordable than ever to build a sever around them.

SD cards are terrible as OS drives on Windows 10 since they are unoptimized and and will cause many slow downs even when doing simple stuff such as web browsing and excel spreed sheets.


----------



## Jawed

maxh22 said:


> After comparing files being played back on an NVME SSD and a Samsung 850 EVO I prefer the NVME SSD since it sounds more relaxed and open, the SD card is better but there is a larger delta between the NVME SSD and the 850 EVO then an SD card and NVME SSD.


What is the entire playback chain? I'm curious if this is a chain with maximum RF filtering/isolation into DAVE and headphones ... or something else...


----------



## maxh22

Jawed said:


> What is the entire playback chain? I'm curious if this is a chain with maximum RF filtering/isolation into DAVE and headphones ... or something else...



The playback chain is very simple:

MSI laptop with all peripherals unplugged>Jriver (Realtek ASIO)> Kabledirekt optical cable> Hugo TT


----------



## Jawed

maxh22 said:


> The playback chain is very simple:
> 
> MSI laptop with all peripherals unplugged>Jriver (Realtek ASIO)> Kabledirekt optical cable> Hugo TT


TT is driving headphones? Running on battery?


----------



## musickid

Many congratulations Delirium!


----------



## hattrick15

jonstatt said:


> I don’t think so because it is already PCM by the time it reaches DAVE and I believe no further filtering takes place. However Rob did mention that the HF filter on Dave is best set to Off when in use with Blu 2



My choices are either PCM+ or DSD+.  My thinking is that if Blu2 is converting a DSD file to PCM then I should set my DAVE to PCM+ mode (even if the original file was DSD).

@Rob Watts Hope you can clarify for me.


----------



## Rob Watts

hattrick15 said:


> My choices are either PCM+ or DSD+.  My thinking is that if Blu2 is converting a DSD file to PCM then I should set my DAVE to PCM+ mode (even if the original file was DSD).
> 
> @Rob Watts Hope you can clarify for me.



Actually I think it would be the same, but it's been a long time since I coded Dave - a 705/768 kHz file would be treated identically in DSD+ or PCM+ modes. Having said that, I keep my Daves' in PCM+ modes with M scalers.


----------



## musickid (May 8, 2018)

If a mains powered computer is connected to a dac by optical and _using a heavy graphics application _like roon would this connection also shield the dac from any noisy processing within the computer? So i'm trying to establish the level of isolation provided by optical.


----------



## delirium

musickid said:


> If a mains powered computer is connected to a dac by optical and _using a heavy graphics application _like roon would this connection also shield the dac from any noisy processing within the computer? So i'm trying to establish the level of isolation provided by optical.


Thanks! Jawed thinks so....read his posts☺


----------



## maxh22 (May 9, 2018)

Jawed said:


> TT is driving headphones? Running on battery?



In my testing TT always ran on batteries. I did the comparison using the Edition X as the primary headphone but also tested with Nighthawks, HD 800S, and IE 80S, each of them reacted exactly the same, sounding more relaxed yet no less detailed..


----------



## Jawed

maxh22 said:


> In my testing TT always ran on batteries. I did the comparison using the Edition X as the primary headphone but also tested with Nighthawks, HD 800S, and IE 80S, each of them reacted exactly the same, sounding more relaxed yet no less detailed..


Well that's interesting as it appears that this could only be jitter that is upsetting TT.



delirium said:


> Thanks! Jawed thinks so....read his posts☺


Well maxh22's test indicates that there is still a sound quality issue with optical, at least with Hugo TT.

Is it jitter? Is it a side-effect of jitter (what people call signal integrity, I think)?

Now playing: Footy - Helicopter Sunset


----------



## maxh22

Jawed said:


> Well that's interesting as it appears that this could only be jitter that is upsetting TT.
> 
> 
> Well maxh22's test indicates that there is still a sound quality issue with optical, at least with Hugo TT.
> ...



I want to mention another thing I found interesting. When I was streaming Tidal I noticed the sound is a little warmer than how I remember it prior to the SD card, so just for kicks I decided to pop the SD card out after pausing the track I was playing and immediately noticed how the the same track sounded slightly brighter, just like if I had my mouse and keyboard plugged in. Popping it in once again slightly calmed down the sound. My theory is that the SD card slot lets in some extra RF noise, thus spicing up the sound.

I also tested it with a dull placement SD card inserted and got the same results as my standard card. I have not tested this with local files yet so its possible that just having a card inserted played a part in the sound quality differences I posted before...


----------



## ChordElectronics (Sep 16, 2019)

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----------



## doraymon

A couple of weeks with my new Dave and I'd like to comment on the pairing with the Focal Clear.
Spectacular transparency and overall very realistic but somehow, sometimes it makes feel I'm missing a bit of bass presence.
I'd like to try the Utopia and Abyss 1266.


----------



## seaice

doraymon said:


> A couple of weeks with my new Dave and I'd like to comment on the pairing with the Focal Clear.
> Spectacular transparency and overall very realistic but somehow, sometimes it makes feel I'm missing a bit of bass presence.
> I'd like to try the Utopia and Abyss 1266.



Try Hifiman headphones as well. My Dave+Susvara is a great combination and I bet that the HE1000 v2 is a great pairing as well (I heard 1000 v2 briefly).


----------



## delirium

I will say this clearly...i dont no what jawed is about???? I tried the optical on my computer to dave...and scrathed my head...is this right..payed good money for this????then i hooked up iso regen and lps-1 and i go what the fu...???? Now i did understand why i payed so much for dave exelent sound!!!!! So i guess my computer is very noisy?????sorry my english


----------



## yakaway

I still feel that the utopias (with DAVE) lack in the bass presence.  They are very clear and articulate, but the 1266 just has more of the low end. 

It all depends on your personal preference.  The utopias are far more comfortable and just outstanding build quality.  

The 1266 don't fit as well, are heavier, and really should be considered ear speakers. The sound is remarkable. I'm on the list for the phi upgrade. Should make them more efficient and perhaps slight dynamics improvement.

I run DAVE through my wells audio headtrip amp ans it had been a true pleasure to listen to them. 

Can't comment on susvara 1000V2 but I'd imagine thats a great pairing as well.


----------



## delirium

seaice said:


> Try Hifiman headphones as well. My Dave+Susvara is a great combination and I bet that the HE1000 v2 is a great pairing as well (I heard 1000 v2 briefly).


Dave does not have the power for susvara!!!!


----------



## delirium

yakaway said:


> I still feel that the utopias (with DAVE) lack in the bass presence.  They are very clear and articulate, but the 1266 just has more of the low end.
> 
> It all depends on your personal preference.  The utopias are far more comfortable and just outstanding build quality.
> 
> ...


Utopias are exellent with dave!!!


----------



## yakaway

1266s benefit, like susvara,  from a bigger amp... hence headtrip


----------



## delirium

yakaway said:


> 1266s benefit, like susvara,  from a bigger amp... hence headtrip


You are correct sir!!


----------



## seaice

delirium said:


> Dave does not have the power for susvara!!!!



You are right but Dave+Susvara sounds really good anyway. I finally bought iFi Pro iCan for Susvara but the Dave+Susvara combo was pretty great as well! So it is worth to try HE1000 v2 and Susvara to get an idea and choose the best for your ears.


----------



## delirium

seaice said:


> You are right but Dave+Susvara sounds really good anyway. I finally bought iFi Pro iCan for Susvara but the Dave+Susvara combo was pretty great as well! So it is worth to try HE1000 v2 and Susvara to get an idea and choose the best for your ears.


Yes it sounds good with dave...but you are going to buy that extra amp in the end..but yes sounds good but.........


----------



## Jawed

Hugo TT 2 has the power. Pity the pulse array and all the rest are not like DAVE. So with power-hungry headphones you have the choice: 

DAVE + headphone amp that spoils the transparency and musicality but provides power and control (which will recover musicality that DAVE loses when feeding the headphones directly due to lack of power)

Hugo TT 2 alone, which doesn't have the transparency and musicality of DAVE
So when Chord makes a power pulse array amplifier with a quality that matches or exceed's DAVE's 20 element 350dB pulse array, and you feed this amp with DAVE, you'll finally have full DAVE quality for your power hungry headphones.

Now playing: Allman Brown - Sweetest Thing


----------



## JaZZ

doraymon said:


> A couple of weeks with my new Dave and I'd like to comment on the pairing with the Focal Clear.
> Spectacular transparency and overall very realistic but somehow, sometimes it makes feel I'm missing a bit of bass presence.
> I'd like to try the Utopia and Abyss 1266.





yakaway said:


> I still feel that the utopias (with DAVE) lack in the bass presence.  They are very clear and articulate, but the 1266 just has more of the low end.


There's an easy solution: Add some bass. I never rely on a headphone's factory setting.



delirium said:


> Dave does not have the power for susvara!!!!





yakaway said:


> 1266s benefit, like susvara,  from a bigger amp... hence headtrip


Personally I prefer the Susvara driven by the DAVE instead of the HiFiMan EF6 – by a clear margin. Much better definition and transparency. I haven't heard it with any other amp, but doubt any of them could change my mind. Reamplifying sacrifices so much accuracy and musicality in my experience (well: to my ears).

The HE1000 (with V2 pads in my case) and DAVE are an excellent pairing. The HD 800 (with damping mod and equalized) comes close.


----------



## delirium

JaZZ said:


> There's an easy solution: Add some bass. I never rely on a headphone's factory setting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dave+v2 are ok..but utopia are better.but you loose maybe soundstage...or are that soundstage incorperated in the heaphone itselves????,


----------



## dmance (May 11, 2018)

On a related side note, the people at Voxativ - who make great high efficiency loudspeakers - have always espoused how only 2-watts of amplifier can light them up.  Well, at Munich, they announced that they have now realized that more amplifier power helps the sound.  So even the driver design engineers can't deny the evidence of their ears and (grudgingly, being German...) admit that more accurate modulation of the cone is obtained when your have more oomph in the signal.   From Voxativ:  _"After much discovery and some disbelief – we have found that even more power can bring more emotion from our highly-sensitive full-range drivers"_


----------



## JaZZ

_dmance..._

That doesn't change the preference of Voxativ and Omega owners for the direct drive with DAVE, apparently. I'm a direct-drive proponent myself (although related to headphones in my case) – call it a sonic preference.


----------



## doraymon

JaZZ said:


> There's an easy solution: Add some bass.


Do you mean EQ?


----------



## JaZZ

doraymon said:


> Do you mean EQ?


Yes, exactly. – But you could also try to install some bass-reflex tunnels.


----------



## dmance

JaZZ said:


> _dmance..._
> 
> That doesn't change the preference of Voxativ and Omega owners for the direct drive with DAVE, apparently. I'm a direct-drive proponent myself (although related to headphones in my case) – call it a sonic preference.


I direct drove my Voxativ's with Hugo2's 2watts and, yes, they were spectacular ...but just lacking some of that fullness and low end energy.  And there was some scary nakedness from all the recording venue ambiance.  Maybe this is what transparency is all about ...but I much preferred the sound thru my 35watt ZOTL amp.  is this distortion?  Non-linearity?  Rounded-off transients?  I want the recreation of a live event in my living space but maybe i'm not ready to handle the truth...


----------



## JaZZ

dmance said:


> I direct drove my Voxativ's with Hugo2's 2watts and, yes, they were spectacular ...but just lacking some of that fullness and low end energy.  And there was some scary nakedness from all the recording venue ambiance.  Maybe this is what transparency is all about ...but I much preferred the sound thru my 35watt ZOTL amp.  is this distortion?  Non-linearity?  Rounded-off transients?  I want the recreation of a live event in my living space but maybe i'm not ready to handle the truth...


Don't worry, you're not alone! I think I know what you mean, and maybe it would irritate me as well. I don't blame the lack of power in the first place (if at all), but the effective low-frequency roll-off (apart from other tonal imperfections!) with said fullrange speakers which gets ruthlessly revealed by the direct-drive mode, whereas amplifier electronics add some forgiving warmth and roundness. This hypothesis is based on my own experience with signal paths as direct as possible.


----------



## delirium

I guess jawed is still playing? Becuose it went from bad..to real...???


----------



## seaice (May 11, 2018)

JaZZ said:


> Personally I prefer the Susvara driven by the DAVE instead of the HiFiMan EF6 – by a clear margin. Much better definition and transparency. I haven't heard it with any other amp, but doubt any of them could change my mind. Reamplifying sacrifices so much accuracy and musicality in my experience (well: to my ears).
> 
> The HE1000 (with V2 pads in my case) and DAVE are an excellent pairing. The HD 800 (with damping mod and equalized) comes close.



I have never heard HiFiMan EF6 with Susvara but I am now testing Dave>Susvara vs Dave>iFi Pro iCan>Susvara. The iFi Pro is very good and I am not sure what I prefer at the moment.... too soon for conclusions.


----------



## delirium

seaice said:


> I have never heard HiFiMan EF6 with Susvara but I am now testing Dave>Susvara vs Dave>iFi Pro iCan>Susvara. The iFi Pro is very good and I am not sure what I prefer at the moment.... too soon for conclusions.


 I have read that it needs 15 watts to make the best of it.......2×15


----------



## delirium

But that can be hifiman propaganda..to sell thier own stuff????


----------



## Jawed

So I think you're saying that you think the sound quality of optical is horrible, compared with ISO Regen and LPS-1.

When you listened to optical, did you make sure to unplug the USB cable from DAVE?


delirium said:


> I will say this clearly...i dont no what jawed is about???? I tried the optical on my computer to dave...and scrathed my head...is this right..payed good money for this????then i hooked up iso regen and lps-1 and i go what the fu...???? Now i did understand why i payed so much for dave exelent sound!!!!! So i guess my computer is very noisy?????sorry my english


Well it seems you are puzzled by Rob too:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831345/page-838#post-14219525



> But what this tells us is that the optical is the best sounding input, and should be used as the benchmark for your sources - the source that gets closer to the sound of optical is the best one. You perhaps may not actually prefer that source - as it will sound warmer than others - but this is the best way forward.


----------



## delirium

Jawed said:


> So I think you're saying that you think the sound quality of optical is horrible, compared with ISO Regen and LPS-1.
> 
> When you listened to optical, did you make sure to unplug the USB cable from DAVE?
> 
> ...


Yes i unplugged everything else? And the sound whas also warmer much more analog..big difference


----------



## Thenewguy007

Jawed said:


> So I think you're saying that you think the sound quality of optical is horrible, compared with ISO Regen and LPS-1.
> 
> When you listened to optical, did you make sure to unplug the USB cable from DAVE?
> 
> ...



Could be the quality of the cable.
In my DAC, the i2s, which is often the best connection type, sounded much worse than the AES. But I'm using a nice AES well made cable & the is2 cable I was using was a spare generic HDMI cable that I was using from one of my TVs.


----------



## Jawed

delirium said:


> Yes i unplugged everything else? And the sound whas also warmer much more analog..big difference


Optical was much warmer?


----------



## delirium

Jawed said:


> Optical was much warmer?


No! Usb...with iso.r and lps-1.but not perfect...but much better than optical?..maybe i have a noisy laptop?asuz 56j or something. From 2011?


----------



## Jawed

delirium said:


> No! Usb...with iso.r and lps-1.but not perfect...but much better than optical?..maybe i have a noisy laptop?asuz 56j or something. From 2011?


Thanks. That's bad luck. I wonder if that's jitter causing the problem? Even though DAVE is meant to have no problem with jitter. Or is it the signal integrity problem?

Do you have a phone or tablet that can output music over USB? That might be better. But you might have to buy a new USB cable or an adaptor to make that work.

Can your laptop play music while it is on battery power? If the laptop works on battery power, try a simple USB cable, but do not use ISO Regen and LPS-1. This might prove that jitter or something else is causing bad sound quality.

Are you listening to DAVE through headphones plugged into DAVE? 

Now playing: Lucy Rose - For You


----------



## doraymon

JaZZ said:


> Yes, exactly. – But you could also try to install some bass-reflex tunnels.


I’m not very much into EQ.
I always thought EQ=less transparency and I wouldn’t know how to approach it.
I will give the Utopia, HE1000 v2 and Abyss a try.


----------



## ecwl

delirium said:


> No! Usb...with iso.r and lps-1.but not perfect...but much better than optical?..maybe i have a noisy laptop?asuz 56j or something. From 2011?


I doubt it’s noise or jitter. But are you sure the Toslink is bit perfect? Should be easy to check on Chord DAVE but still, it’s very easy to accidentally have Windows accidentally change the sample rate, or just DSP the signal before sending it to the DAC.


----------



## doraymon

Interesting read HERE about Mains Quality.
As usual in the internet you will find everything and its opposite...


----------



## simorag

simorag said:


> Hello guys, which power cable are you using with the DAVE?
> 
> I am currently using a fair budget cable (http://www.ricable.com/hi-end-power.html), combined with this power distributor http://www.systemsandmagic.com/index_file/eight.htm, and I am wondering about the potential sound quality improvements from stepping up to a higher end power cable in the 400-600Euro price range (I am open to 2nd hand ones, too).
> 
> ...



As a follow up to my previous post, I am reporting very good results by using the Audioquest NRG-1000 power cable (which I found used within my price bracket above) with the DAVE, which I am now using since a month or so.

I am not a cables fanatic and don't want to overstate the impact of the NRG-1000 on my system with typical audiophile stereotypes and exaggerations, but indeed the improvements are well audible over my previous power cord.

There is a general added sense of blackness and calmness of the sound, and this has brought benefits across the board: fuller yet cleaner bass response, better focus and imaging, further reduced listening fatigue.

Happy to report that the slight sibilance quirk I am affected by is tamed by the NRG-1000 in an easily noticeable way. I have tried a few tracks I use for this (including the infamous - and beautiful - Spanish Harlem from Rebecca Pidgeon) and the highs in general, and sibilants in particular, are indeed smoother. Double checked by switching back to the previous PC.

All in all, I would say that the improvement is above my expectations.


----------



## draytonklammer

Not sure what all the trouble with toslink is.

I made the switch from USB to toslink with my DAVE recently and prefer it for multiple reasons.


----------



## jonstatt

I think it would be more beneficial to invest in a power strip that filters common mode noise such as products from IsoTek than a mains cable. I have tried a few mains cables with Dave and my ears may not be golden enough but couldn’t hear the difference.


----------



## Triode User

jonstatt said:


> I think it would be more beneficial to invest in a power strip that filters common mode noise such as products from IsoTek than a mains cable. I have tried a few mains cables with Dave and my ears may not be golden enough but couldn’t hear the difference.



Or just use the power cable Dave comes with. For instance I tried a ps audio regenerator and it produced more EMI noise than my normal mains.


----------



## Jawed

Ferrites definitely worked for me on the power cable. Initially, I thought they made no difference...


----------



## Triode User

Jawed said:


> Ferrites definitely worked for me on the power cable. Initially, I thought they made no difference...



Thanks. I will try. 

Can you tell me which frequency the ones you are using are targeting, broadband? low? middle? higher? 
I use fair-rite 61, ie higher, on my Blu2 bnc cables.


----------



## Jawed

Triode User said:


> Thanks. I will try.
> 
> Can you tell me which frequency the ones you are using are targeting, broadband? low? middle? higher?
> I use fair-rite 61, ie higher, on my Blu2 bnc cables.


I don't know. Perhaps this is the data sheet?:

http://www.meisongbei.com/res/meisongbei/pdres/201007/inductor-SF.pdf

"SF-90A" might be the one I'm using? The dimensions match up and other pictures of ferrites made by this company around the web look like what I have. The impedances of all the ferrites in that datasheet are quite low values, which may be why I end-up using so many. The "SF-50" might be the one I use on my USB cable.

I've linked the post about listening impressions in my signature. 40 cost about £30.


----------



## doraymon

OT: sorry but I can't find a Focal Utopia thread on HeadFi. Am I completely drunk? If someone could point me in the right direction...


----------



## miketlse

doraymon said:


> OT: sorry but I can't find a Focal Utopia thread on HeadFi. Am I completely drunk? If someone could point me in the right direction...


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/focal-utopia-general-discussion.811273/
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/foc...-preview-with-measurements-head-fi-tv.811270/


----------



## doraymon (May 13, 2018)

miketlse said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/focal-utopia-general-discussion.811273/
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/foc...-preview-with-measurements-head-fi-tv.811270/


Thanks, I saw that one but last post is dated June 2016 so I thought there must be another one.

EDIT: sorry, I am clearly not in a good shape. That's the one.


----------



## jonstatt (May 13, 2018)

The thing about power conditioners with Dave is not so much the effect on Dave itself, but Dave affecting upstream components like the streamer (still much debate about the influence of switch mode power supplies). I don't currently have one but was thinking it might improve the overall set-up rather than Dave specifically.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Leakage current stock pwr cord into mains .54 mA
Leakage current after ps audio power plant and Pangea pwr cord .16 mA 
Leakage current Pangea pwr cord and topnisus ferrites .05 mA 
For whatever it’s worth!


----------



## xxx1313

I was not happy at all with the Pangea power cord (full of ferrite beads), as well as with some more expensive power cords. I can only recommend Shunyata power cables. Even the rather cheap Shunyata Venom brought better results than much more expensive cables, so I upgraded to the Shunyata Alpha HC, with which I am very satisfied now. I also tried a Shunyata Alpha Digital before with very good results, but this cable is optimized for digital (only) gear and so it limited dynamics of the Dave. I use this cable now for the tx-USBultra, which is probably overkill, but it also improved its performance considerably. Thanks to @romaz for his comments on the Shunyata Alpha HC!


----------



## Triode User (May 13, 2018)

marcmccalmont said:


> Leakage current stock pwr cord into mains .54 mA
> Leakage current after ps audio power plant and Pangea pwr cord .16 mA
> Leakage current Pangea pwr cord and topnisus ferrites .05 mA
> For whatever it’s worth!



But I thought we were talking about EMI noise. That Reed tester is principally to detect mains frequency leakage although it can switch to a wide setting but that is only 40Hz - 1kHz. Did you flick between the two settings to see if there was a different reading at the different frequencies? As far as I am aware, the Pangea pwr cord is simply a screened cable similar to the Belden cable that I use.

Also, you omitted the screened cable straight out of the wall socket for comparison with the power plant.


----------



## elviscaprice (May 13, 2018)

Anyone here making their own AC chords, DIY?  I'm considering doing just that with the heaviest gauge wire I can find (8awg).


----------



## Triode User

elviscaprice said:


> Why would you use a AC chord for the tx-USBultra, which requires DC supply?  What AC chord do you find best with DAVE?  Anyone here making their own AC chords, DIY?  I'm considering doing just that with the heaviest gauge wire I can find.



Well, here in the uk the installation wire in the walls is normally only 2.5mm2 unless a bespoke installation is done. I use 2.5mm2 for that reason.


----------



## tunes

tunes said:


> Does the MSI LAPTOP play music files from solid state storage or an internal hard drive.   The spinning drive without a solid state buffer will introduce noise won’t it?


Need a portable transport with 2 SD cards, optical out, user friendly UI showing album covers and songs without scrolling, favorites list capability, WiFi for down load and streaming from TIDAL, battery operation to avoid mains RFI and cost under $2K for both HUGO 2 and DAVE.   Any suggestions??


----------



## Jawed

marcmccalmont said:


> Leakage current stock pwr cord into mains .54 mA
> Leakage current after ps audio power plant and Pangea pwr cord .16 mA
> Leakage current Pangea pwr cord and topnisus ferrites .05 mA
> For whatever it’s worth!


Fascinating! I don't understand what's going on here.

My concern is that the meter may be sensing AC, and in doing so might be looking for a current at a particular frequency. And the ferrites are filtering at that frequency and so the reading may be a "lie".

Also, I'm wondering if by placing the meter around the ferrite that the ferrite is affecting the reading. Is there a bit of bare cable after the final ferrite and before the plug to use instead?

Now playing: The Staves, yMusic - Hopeless


----------



## Triode User (May 13, 2018)

Jawed said:


> Fascinating! I don't understand what's going on here.
> 
> My concern is that the meter may be sensing AC, and in doing so might be looking for a current at a particular frequency. And the ferrites are filtering at that frequency and so the reading may be a "lie".
> 
> ...



That was my point. Essential it is an AC leakage sensing meter. So it is fundamentally sensing 50/60hz or harmonics of that if set to wide band but even then not above 1kHz.

I have used an RF sensing meter and there was definitely more RF coming out of a ps audio P10 powerplant that I used to own than there was plugged into my wall socket.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Jawed said:


> Fascinating! I don't understand what's going on here.
> 
> My concern is that the meter may be sensing AC, and in doing so might be looking for a current at a particular frequency. And the ferrites are filtering at that frequency and so the reading may be a "lie".
> 
> ...


I see a reduction in leakage current with the Pangea over the stock cable in all positions and a drastic reduction in leakage current when measuring over the ferrites. I read somewhere that the ferrites force the outer shield to be a more effective faraday shield? Since Dave is the critical component I ordered a shorter cord and more topnisus ferrites to cover the entire cord. I do hear a smoother quieter presentation with the ferrites I now have on Dave’s cord.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Triode User said:


> But I thought we were talking about EMI noise. That Reed tester is principally to detect mains frequency leakage although it can switch to a wide setting but that is only 40Hz - 1kHz. Did you flick between the two settings to see if there was a different reading at the different frequencies? As far as I am aware, the Pangea pwr cord is simply a screened cable similar to the Belden cable that I use.
> 
> Also, you omitted the screened cable straight out of the wall socket for comparison with the power plant.


No difference in performance before or after the powerplant What test/equipment did you use to confirm an increase in emi/rfi after the powerplant? How did your coax experiment workout?


----------



## SCBob

jonstatt said:


> The thing about power conditioners with Dave is not so much the effect on Dave itself, but Dave affecting upstream components like the streamer (still much debate about the influence of switch mode power supplies). I don't currently have one but was thinking it might improve the overall set-up rather than Dave specifically.


I have a DAVE on the way, with delivery scheduled for tomorrow. I will be using it with an iMac and USB connection, as the iMac does not have an optical out. I recently purchased an Audioquest Niagara 1000 Power Conditioner and Thunder Power Cord and have an ISO REGEN with UltraCap LPS-1.2 on order to use with a power isolated Curious Cable USB cable. I also have another power cable, the Danacable Source Clarifier for Source Components.
Since I will already be using the Niagara Power Conditioner with the Thunder Power Cord will using the Danacable Source Clarifier in place of either the standard DAVE power cable or the standard iMac power cable provide any additional sound quality? If so, with this setup which is the better place to use the Danacable, the DAVE or the iMac? Thank you.


----------



## rkt31

few days back I used my cheap Redmi S1 as transport to Hugo 2 with short silver usb cable from penon audio with three small ferrite besds (it could accommodate only three) i would say it bettered the optical input with clear margin. may be it was due to Hugo 2 clock coming in picture with usb input. sound with ferrite on usb cable was lot smoother and darker. then I tried same with cheap thin long data cable with lot of ferrites ( total six ) along with jitterbug . the sound degraded like anything, no bass, no depth and extremely congested. it was like something has been sucked out of the sound. it was strange experience. Theni tried my oyaide usb A class 1m cable with four ferrites and sound was again lot better . can't explain  is it due to thin data cable which was not able to transmit the data properly ?


----------



## Triode User (May 15, 2018)

marcmccalmont said:


> No difference in performance before or after the powerplant What test/equipment did you use to confirm an increase in emi/rfi after the powerplant? How did your coax experiment workout?



Hi, it was a meter very similar to this but sourced in the UK. It has an audible indicator but more important it has a measured output. That might not be accurate but the measurement is very useful for relative measurements, ie before and after filters etc. (Edit, The meter spec says "Measures line noise 0-1999 mV from 10 kHz to over 1 MHz with an accuracy of +/-10%")

http://greenwavefilters.com/product/emi-meter/

My Blu2 BNC cable is coming on just fine thanks. It has ended up as a mixture of high spec silver conductor and silver sheathed coax, high end BNC connectors and also with integral ferrites. The end result is something that is 'plug and go' with no need to add extra ferrites and which looks aesthetically good. The bonus is that it is relatively flexible. I probably can't talk too much on here because with the success of how it has turned out I have decided to sell them.


----------



## flyte3333

draytonklammer said:


> Not sure what all the trouble with toslink is.
> 
> I made the switch from USB to toslink with my DAVE recently and prefer it for multiple reasons.



Which source are you using?

And can you get 192kHz to work reliably without any dropout?


----------



## flyte3333

Hi @Rob Watts 

There's some interesting discussion on CA Forum about SPDIF sucking (I disagree obviously since TOSlink is my main input except when I want to pull out my Frankenstein 'off the grid' USB setup on weekends).

I've read a lot about your DPLL but how do you overcome the specific issues discussed here:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...basically-suck/?do=findComment&comment=822024

Cheers!


----------



## Rob Watts

No competently designed SPDIF rx circuit would ever do what that poster suggests, it would create too much THD and noise. The DPLL creates a brand new word clock that is exactly frequency locked to the source, but is on the local 104.25MHz clock domain - the DAC master clock. A data buffer is used, and data is sampled by the DPLL created word clock.

I know for sure that this system works as intended (it actually took 6 years to perfect the DPLL) as with Hugo 2 on headphones I got USB to sound indistinguishable to optical. With USB the clock for the data is a direct multiple of the DAC master clock so no new word clock needs to be generated.


----------



## jonstatt

SCBob said:


> I have a DAVE on the way, with delivery scheduled for tomorrow. I will be using it with an iMac and USB connection, as the iMac does not have an optical out. I recently purchased an Audioquest Niagara 1000 Power Conditioner and Thunder Power Cord and have an ISO REGEN with UltraCap LPS-1.2 on order to use with a power isolated Curious Cable USB cable. I also have another power cable, the Danacable Source Clarifier for Source Components.
> Since I will already be using the Niagara Power Conditioner with the Thunder Power Cord will using the Danacable Source Clarifier in place of either the standard DAVE power cable or the standard iMac power cable provide any additional sound quality? If so, with this setup which is the better place to use the Danacable, the DAVE or the iMac? Thank you.



Congratulations on the DAVE purchase. At least we can say for sure that component amongst the others you listed is not Snake Oil. Honestly I am a power cable sceptic. I have tried different ones costing up to £1000 and I honestly couldn't tell them apart with DAVE. Others swear by them. The only thing I do believe in is that noise such as RFI/EMI can degrade the sound quality at the DAC end. This is why things like galvanic isolation are vital. I can't for the life of me figure out what difference a mains cable can make, especially if it doesn't even have ferrites on it. A couple of years ago Audioquest actually removed the ferrites from some of their mains cables claiming they sounded better that way!

Dave's USB  isolation isn't perfect. So for that last % of improvement people look to try all sorts of things like ferrites on cables etc. Now mains conditioners can be scientifically tested and shown to reduce the noise on the mains. The question is, does it actually make a difference to the sound? DAVE has very good mains noise control already in place so the Niagara may not make any difference. Good conditioners also ensure that the components connected to the conditioner don't pass noise onto each other (i.e. separately filtered).This may help components that do not have the best mains filtering in their design, perhaps a streamer, from being influenced by DAVE, and that streamer passing the noise back to DAVE via USB. The thing I am getting at though is we have no way of knowing for your specific set-up whether a conditioner makes any difference at all, or the power cable. How noisy is your mains? 

At the very least for source and pre-amp devices a conditioner won't do any harm and may just improve things a little. And conditioners usually have surge protection which is vital to protect investments like DAVE. As for where to put the Danacable, I would say it doesn't matter, but if you were convinced that it does I think it has more chance of an improvement connected to DAVE than the iMac.


----------



## jonstatt

Rob Watts said:


> No competently designed SPDIF rx circuit would ever do what that poster suggests, it would create too much THD and noise. The DPLL creates a brand new word clock that is exactly frequency locked to the source, but is on the local 104.25MHz clock domain - the DAC master clock. A data buffer is used, and data is sampled by the DPLL created word clock.
> 
> I know for sure that this system works as intended (it actually took 6 years to perfect the DPLL) as with Hugo 2 on headphones I got USB to sound indistinguishable to optical. With USB the clock for the data is a direct multiple of the DAC master clock so no new word clock needs to be generated.



If it is exactly locked to the source how does it avoid jitter from a poor quality source clock?


----------



## draytonklammer

Rob Watts said:


> No competently designed SPDIF rx circuit would ever do what that poster suggests, it would create too much THD and noise. The DPLL creates a brand new word clock that is exactly frequency locked to the source, but is on the local 104.25MHz clock domain - the DAC master clock. A data buffer is used, and data is sampled by the DPLL created word clock.
> 
> I know for sure that this system works as intended (it actually took 6 years to perfect the DPLL) as with Hugo 2 on headphones I got USB to sound indistinguishable to optical. With USB the clock for the data is a direct multiple of the DAC master clock so no new word clock needs to be generated.



Rob, am I right to be using toslink from my computer, or should I be using USB?


----------



## Rob Watts

It's frequency locked, not phase locked. So over seconds, it will adjust the created word clock; but will completely ignore any jitter. We can see this on the jitter plots on the DAC; and if I add 2uS of source jitter, there is absolutely no change in measurements. 2uS is over a thousand times bigger than typical source jitter....


----------



## Rob Watts

draytonklammer said:


> Rob, am I right to be using toslink from my computer, or should I be using USB?



Yes. Toslink is the gold standard, and the target to hit with USB - assuming the toslink is bit perfect (and if it's not you will hear the drop-outs easily).


----------



## Beolab

ChordElectronics said:


> ​The multi-award winning Chord Electronics Choral family of products has never sounded so good. Welcome Étude to the table, a 150w Class A stereo power amplifier featuring the first fundamentally new typology since Chord Electronics' inception in 1989, using highly advanced technologies seen within the aerospace industry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thought this amp should be using the Pulse array digital interface, but maybe the ètude will be upgraded next year then ?


----------



## delirium

SCBob said:


> I have a DAVE on the way, with delivery scheduled for tomorrow. I will be using it with an iMac and USB connection, as the iMac does not have an optical out. I recently purchased an Audioquest Niagara 1000 Power Conditioner and Thunder Power Cord and have an ISO REGEN with UltraCap LPS-1.2 on order to use with a power isolated Curious Cable USB cable. I also have another power cable, the Danacable Source Clarifier for Source Components.
> Since I will already be using the Niagara Power Conditioner with the Thunder Power Cord will using the Danacable Source Clarifier in place of either the standard DAVE power cable or the standard iMac power cable provide any additional sound quality? If so, with this setup which is the better place to use the Danacable, the DAVE or the iMac? Thank you.


Hi! I also have iso.lps...it sounds better than optisk in my case? But that can be becouse optisk is going trew a soundcard on my laptop before dave? So i dont no if that sounds better..many here thinks so.but iso.lps sounds good..!!


----------



## delirium

Jawed said:


> Thanks. That's bad luck. I wonder if that's jitter causing the problem? Even though DAVE is meant to have no problem with jitter. Or is it the signal integrity problem?
> 
> Do you have a phone or tablet that can output music over USB? That might be better. But you might have to buy a new USB cable or an adaptor to make that work.
> 
> ...


I think it's going trew a bad soundcard in my laptop before dave? Only explenation? No? I will try with my phone..soon


----------



## delirium

Jawed said:


> Thanks. That's bad luck. I wonder if that's jitter causing the problem? Even though DAVE is meant to have no problem with jitter. Or is it the signal integrity problem?
> 
> Do you have a phone or tablet that can output music over USB? That might be better. But you might have to buy a new USB cable or an adaptor to make that work.
> 
> ...


And yes dave+utopia


----------



## delirium

ecwl said:


> I doubt it’s noise or jitter. But are you sure the Toslink is bit perfect? Should be easy to check on Chord DAVE but still, it’s very easy to accidentally have Windows accidentally change the sample rate, or just DSP the signal before sending it to the DAC.


Hi! What can a do about that! Thanks


----------



## delirium

Thenewguy007 said:


> Could be the quality of the cable.
> In my DAC, the i2s, which is often the best connection type, sounded much worse than the AES. But I'm using a nice AES well made cable & the is2 cable I was using was a spare generic HDMI cable that I was using from one of my TVs.


I am using the cable that came whith dave. Thanks. With adapter audioqest mini toslink


----------



## elviscaprice (May 15, 2018)

delirium said:


> Hi! What can a do about that! Thanks


Use a media player like JRiver to bypass the OS.  Use the ASIO Chord driver.

Regardless of others statements or denials, clocking and the power supply that powers it, makes a huge difference in any data SQ streaming to DAVE or for that matter all DAC's.  I and other audiophiles can hear it in no small manner in SQ quality, regardless of technological choice in data streaming means.  So I choose the most format capable, technologically accepted means, USB.  There I concentrate on getting that transmission as isolated, shortest path, filtered, properly clocked to DAVE.  
It's no small means to achieve optimum SQ streaming via USB but it trumps a non optimized toslink, and by no small gap.   
In the end, your going to have to test this all out yourself to determine what's best, try finding others that hear similarly to you and have a go at it.  This thread is probably not the best source for that, other than technological clarifications.
My 2 cents.


----------



## delirium

elviscaprice said:


> Use a media player like JRiver to bypass the OS.  Use the ASIO Chord driver.
> 
> Regardless of others statements or denials, clocking and the power supply that powers it, makes a huge difference in any data SQ streaming to DAVE or for that matter all DAC's.  I and other audiophiles can hear it in no small manner in SQ quality, regardless of technological choice in data streaming means.  So I choose the most format capable, technologically accepted means, USB.  There I concentrate on getting that transmission as isolated, shortest path, filtered, properly clocked to DAVE.
> It's no small means to achieve optimum SQ streaming via USB but it trumps a non optimized toslink, and by no small gap.
> ...


Thanks.....but use only tidal? Then what....


----------



## elviscaprice (May 15, 2018)

delirium said:


> Thanks.....but use only tidal? Then what....


Same, just that you start at a disadvantage without initializing the data stream under personal isolation control, so now you are trying to correct the sins from internet intialization of data.  You have a couple choices of component route.  Ethernet/USB via renderer or server direct utilizing a lan.  Both will require the same isolation, clocking, power care.  Personally I would prefer the optomized server route for combination of online streaming and personal data. Also, since your utilizing Tidal as your main source of audio data, your probably going to want to use Roon for media player, better integration with Tidal.  Roon gives you both options, server or renderer.

NOTE:  Really a renderer is a server in a skirt.  A full low power optimized server gives you better data/software control, in my humble opinion.  Both have to be optimized, but the renderer requires other components/optimized to full fill what the server can accomplish.  And it can be a technological software bottle neck that you have no control over.

I never stream from internet, so I use JRiver (JRiver gives me audiophile video capabilities) and disable any internet capabilities on my audio server for better isolation.


----------



## delirium

elviscaprice said:


> Same, just that you start at a disadvantage without initializing the data stream under personal isolation control, so now you are trying to correct the sins from internet intialization of data.  You have a couple choices of component route.  Ethernet/USB via renderer or server direct utilizing a lan.  Both will require the same isolation, clocking, power care.  Personally I would prefer the optomized server route for combination of online streaming and personal data. Also, since your utilizing Tidal as your main source of audio data, your probably going to want to use Roon for media player, better integration with Tidal.  Roon gives you both options, server or renderer.
> 
> NOTE:  Really a renderer is a server in a skirt.  A full low power optimized server gives you better data/software control, in my humble opinion.  Both have to be optimized, but the renderer requires other components/optimized to full fill what the server can accomplish.  And it can be a technological software bottle neck that you have no control over.
> 
> I never stream from internet, so I use JRiver (JRiver gives me audiophile video capabilities) and disable any internet capabilities on my audio server for better isolation.


Thanks


----------



## minibox

elviscaprice said:


> Use a media player like JRiver to bypass the OS.  Use the ASIO Chord driver.
> 
> Regardless of others statements or denials, clocking and the power supply that powers it, makes a huge difference in any data SQ streaming to DAVE or for that matter all DAC's.  I and other audiophiles can hear it in no small manner in SQ quality, regardless of technological choice in data streaming means.  So I choose the most format capable, technologically accepted means, USB.  There I concentrate on getting that transmission as isolated, shortest path, filtered, properly clocked to DAVE.
> It's no small means to achieve optimum SQ streaming via USB but it trumps a non optimized toslink, and by no small gap.
> ...


I am in agreement. I have found this to be true with other dacs but have not tried a clocking device yet with Dave. I have always found toslink thin and digital sounding. I’m going to try a audiophilleo to a blu2/dave combo. I could be wrong but it seems that those who prefer toslink have not yet experienced a truly well setup usb connection with a quality clock and separate power supply. To each his/her own though. In the end, we all have to trust our own ears.


----------



## rkt31

short length shielded usb cable with two jitterbugs (one extra in spare usb port ) along with 2 or three ferrite are all one need for best possible transmission to the dac. imho DACs clock pulls the data which is also verified during transfer. it ensures warmer , cleaner and smoother sound.


----------



## Jawed

minibox said:


> I am in agreement. I have found this to be true with other dacs but have not tried a clocking device yet with Dave. I have always found toslink thin and digital sounding. I’m going to try a audiophilleo to a blu2/dave combo. I could be wrong but it seems that those who prefer toslink have not yet experienced a truly well setup usb connection with a quality clock and separate power supply. To each his/her own though. In the end, we all have to trust our own ears.


While Rob didn't post his own opinions directly, his opinions of Romaz's setup for feeding/connecting BluDAVE, as reported by Romaz, were critical of your apparent preference:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831343/page-196#post-14103674

Rob has been quite clear recently that optical is the reference and he rejected Romaz's "truly well setup usb
connection with a quality clock".

Romaz said, "Another lesson that this exercise has reinforced for me is that don't assume that just because Rob likes something or that I like something or Jay likes something, that you'll like it, too." At the same time, you have to consider why the designer of the DAC you own and enjoy holds such a strongly different point of view.

Some people don't like the sound quality of optical, when optical is apparently working well. e.g. Romaz when Rob set up his personal Blu 2 with optical input, Though I get the sense from his final Head Fi posts that Romaz's dislike for the kind of sound quality that is Rob's preference, exemplified by optical, was fading. It's worth noting that Romaz didn't actually express a preference amongst the two optical sources for Blu 2 in the post I linked. Romaz appeared, back at the end of March, to have a slight preference for USB from his server setup instead of optical, so it could be said that Romaz isn't as critical of optical as others.

Other people appear to have optical setups that work badly, describing them as harsh and thin sounding versus USB. I think it's worth taking those reports seriously, as it appears to indicate that there's some system setup problem that optical worsens when compared with USB. It's a fascinating mystery.

At the very least all of Chord's DACs come with an optical cable, so it's an easy experiment if you have an optical source. Just remember to disconnect all other inputs from your Chord DAC,

Now playing: Odd Beholder - Landscape Escape


----------



## Crgreen

Jawed said:


> While Rob didn't post his own opinions directly, his opinions of Romaz's setup for feeding/connecting BluDAVE, as reported by Romaz, were critical of your apparent preference:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831343/page-196#post-14103674
> 
> ...



What I found interesting about Romaz’ post was that If I had posted saying that I’d heard his high-end server etc, and preferred the sound of a battery latop using JRiver, there would have been an uproar. “People like you just don’t know how to listen properly. Thank goodness there are those with a proper pair of ears” they would have said “like Rob Watts”.


----------



## Rob Watts

To be fair to Romaz, the high-end server had better tonal balance within the context of the system; the battery lap-top was a touch too dark. My view is that it would be better to brighten up the system in other ways... Also, I know what RF sounds like, and to me it sticks out like a sore thumb. That said, the depth improvement was very easy to hear - but both Romaz and Jay was struggling to hear it (eventually they got it) - I have spent way to many hours listening to subtle changes in depth, and am extremely well trained in it. I do not have magic ears, as some things they could hear, and I couldn't - but I am hypersensitive about depth, and can spot the effects of RF noise a mile off....


----------



## Crgreen

Rob Watts said:


> To be fair to Romaz, the high-end server had better tonal balance within the context of the system; the battery lap-top was a touch too dark. My view is that it would be better to brighten up the system in other ways... Also, I know what RF sounds like, and to me it sticks out like a sore thumb. That said, the depth improvement was very easy to hear - but both Romaz and Jay was struggling to hear it (eventually they got it) - I have spent way to many hours listening to subtle changes in depth, and am extremely well trained in it. I do not have magic ears, as some things they could hear, and I couldn't - but I am hypersensitive about depth, and can spot the effects of RF noise a mile off....



I’m sure you’re right, Rob. My point wasn’t about your hearing but how other people would respond. 

For what it’s worth, I also listen using a laptop running JRiver. I’ve kept away from expensive servers not because I don’t think they can make a difference but due to the pace of change in this area, and that within a year or so they might end up being rather expensive paperweights. From what I’ve heard, Romaz also believes things are changing very quickly, though in his system they usually do.


----------



## hieukm

And i listen to a Surface pro battery power and it sounds horrible. Hmm


----------



## yellowblue

I can´t follow you, Rob! I first had a laptop with the DAVE because I believed you that the source didn´t matter. But every step I took from that gave an audible improvement - beginning with the MicroRendu, adding LPS 1.2, then TX-USBultra and Cybershaft clock and finally an Innuos Zenith SE. Is it just RF noise I am hearing? I was first a bit angry about myself and about Chord in the beginning that I just couldn´t get peace of mind using a laptop and leaving things there. That was the reason why I decided to buy the Dave. Just care about music and don´t need to read in forums about server-upgrades. 
At the same time I think the DAVE is an incredible product and I can live with that. 
But I am really surprised reading your claim that a laptop should sound better or as good as a good server with the DAVE. That is not my experience, not at all!


----------



## delirium

yellowblue said:


> I can´t follow you, Rob! I first had a laptop with the DAVE because I believed you that the source didn´t matter. But every step I took from that gave an audible improvement - beginning with the MicroRendu, adding LPS 1.2, then TX-USBultra and Cybershaft clock and finally an Innuos Zenith SE. Is it just RF noise I am hearing? I was first a bit angry about myself and about Chord in the beginning that I just couldn´t get peace of mind using a laptop and leaving things there. That was the reason why I decided to buy the Dave. Just care about music and don´t need to read in forums about server-upgrades.
> At the same time I think the DAVE is an incredible product and I can live with that.
> But I am really surprised reading your claim that a laptop should sound better or as good as a good server with the DAVE. That is not my experience, not at all!


Well i dont supose that it is a good market stratege to sell dave and apply that you need extra gear with it?


----------



## hieukm

yellowblue said:


> I can´t follow you, Rob! I first had a laptop with the DAVE because I believed you that the source didn´t matter. But every step I took from that gave an audible improvement - beginning with the MicroRendu, adding LPS 1.2, then TX-USBultra and Cybershaft clock and finally an Innuos Zenith SE. Is it just RF noise I am hearing? I was first a bit angry about myself and about Chord in the beginning that I just couldn´t get peace of mind using a laptop and leaving things there. That was the reason why I decided to buy the Dave. Just care about music and don´t need to read in forums about server-upgrades.
> At the same time I think the DAVE is an incredible product and I can live with that.
> But I am really surprised reading your claim that a laptop should sound better or as good as a good server with the DAVE. That is not my experience, not at all!



Rob is very protective when it comes to his product.


----------



## flyte3333 (May 17, 2018)

hieukm said:


> And i listen to a Surface pro battery power and it sounds horrible. Hmm



How so?

Just for additional info, if anyone doesn't like the sound of a laptop running on battery (disconnected from mains power) compared with other USB sources, would be great if you could describe how.

If it sounds too warm and not detailed enough?

If there are warmer sounding USB sources than a battery powered laptop, that's just as interesting.  Maybe it's the USB signal integrity thing John Swenson has been harping on about for a few years now..

Personal preferences are a massive factor here but it's still interesting to read other people's observations.


----------



## Rob Watts

yellowblue said:


> I can´t follow you, Rob! I first had a laptop with the DAVE because I believed you that the source didn´t matter. But every step I took from that gave an audible improvement - beginning with the MicroRendu, adding LPS 1.2, then TX-USBultra and Cybershaft clock and finally an Innuos Zenith SE. Is it just RF noise I am hearing? I was first a bit angry about myself and about Chord in the beginning that I just couldn´t get peace of mind using a laptop and leaving things there. That was the reason why I decided to buy the Dave. Just care about music and don´t need to read in forums about server-upgrades.
> At the same time I think the DAVE is an incredible product and I can live with that.
> But I am really surprised reading your claim that a laptop should sound better or as good as a good server with the DAVE. That is not my experience, not at all!



I guess it depends what you mean by a server sounding better; my experience is that they sound brighter, with the illusion of better transparency; classic hallmarks of RF noise generation. And the problem isn't so much Dave, but the power amp Dave is connected too being sensitive to RF. But absolutely for sure, a lap-top connected to nothing but Dave's USB port will give the lowest possible RF noise into Dave - and will not affect power amps at all.



delirium said:


> Well i dont supose that it is a good market stratege to sell dave and apply that you need extra gear with it?



I don't care about marketing; indeed, one could argue that extra gear would create more business opportunities for Chord. I just want the best possible sound, and to do that requires understanding of the engineering issues involved. That's why the forums are so very valuable, as sensitivities and how the gear is used, gives me valuable insight - if I get to replicate the issue. Sometimes however, people just enjoy added distortion, particularly noise floor modulation....


----------



## jonstatt

Rob Watts said:


> I guess it depends what you mean by a server sounding better; my experience is that they sound brighter, with the illusion of better transparency; classic hallmarks of RF noise generation. And the problem isn't so much Dave, but the power amp Dave is connected too being sensitive to RF. But absolutely for sure, a lap-top connected to nothing but Dave's USB port will give the lowest possible RF noise into Dave - and will not affect power amps at all.



There has been a trend to state that the only negative influence RF or EMI can introduce is brightness. Thus the A/B comparison many of us are doing when changing cables or equipment is to find the "warmer" or "darker" version, and ruling that it must be the more correct. But I think there is another kind of "noise" that gives the impression of not just darker, but smeared, as if the low level dynamics are blurred together. This seems to be an effect others have reported too with certain USB links and influenced by a choice of USB cable even. How else can you explain the fact that the USB connected version vs TOSLINK of an identical bitstream would sound "darker"?

I feel we have over simplified the influence of noise to always be added brightness.


----------



## Crgreen

jonstatt said:


> There has been a trend to state that the only negative influence RF or EMI can introduce is brightness. Thus the A/B comparison many of us are doing when changing cables or equipment is to find the "warmer" or "darker" version, and ruling that it must be the more correct. But I think there is another kind of "noise" that gives the impression of not just darker, but smeared, as if the low level dynamics are blurred together. This seems to be an effect others have reported too with certain USB links and influenced by a choice of USB cable even. How else can you explain the fact that the USB connected version vs TOSLINK of an identical bitstream would sound "darker"?
> 
> I feel we have over simplified the influence of noise to always be added brightness.



I think that’s right. There are distortions, digital and otherwise, which can make music seem darker, or even duller. On occasions, this can be welcome given that a lot of recordings are over bright, but I speak as a music listener not as an audio engineer. I imagine Rob would agree, which is why he places emphasis on depth, which is probabaly a more neutral feature for assessing accuracy.


----------



## delirium

Rob Watts said:


> I guess it depends what you mean by a server sounding better; my experience is that they sound brighter, with the illusion of better transparency; classic hallmarks of RF noise generation. And the problem isn't so much Dave, but the power amp Dave is connected too being sensitive to RF. But absolutely for sure, a lap-top connected to nothing but Dave's USB port will give the lowest possible RF noise into Dave - and will not affect power amps at all.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care about marketing; indeed, one could argue that extra gear would create more business opportunities for Chord. I just want the best possible sound, and to do that requires understanding of the engineering issues involved. That's why the forums are so very valuable, as sensitivities and how the gear is used, gives me valuable insight - if I get to replicate the issue. Sometimes however, people just enjoy added distortion, particularly noise floor modulation....


Hi Rob! After fidelizer has calmed down my laptop a bit and utopia or the cable has settled? I tried  usb on battery only, and without isoregen and lps1. And you are right sir!!! Much better? But optical dident work for me for some reason? And i thank you for saving me the money for a streamer...bye the way...dave is great


----------



## flyte3333 (May 17, 2018)

delirium said:


> I tried usb on battery only, and without isoregen and lps1. And you are right sir!!!



Perfectly aligned with my own observations - as great as the Uptone LPS-1 and ISO REGEN are, there is still some coupling to mains power and I can hear that it's slightly brighter than TOSlink. When I take my microRendu (all these devices mentioned are designed by John Swenson) off the grid and power it by battery and optically isolate ethernet (battery power the FMC's also), it goes to another level in performance - as warm as TOSlink but with the feel good factor of having the master clock controlling the timing.

That's for weekend listening because it's a pain in the a$$ to setup.

My daily source is TOSlink and sound fantastic.


----------



## yakaway

Try this
https://www.psaudio.com/directstream-p20-power-plant/


----------



## Triode User

yakaway said:


> Try this
> https://www.psaudio.com/directstream-p20-power-plant/



Regarding that I have mentioned before that I used to own a PSAudio P10 but it injected more RF/EMI noise into the supply than came out of the wall socket (measured by a meter).

On the general issue I think part of the problem with this whole discussion regarding usb/optical/RF noise/ etc is that we are relying on peoples reported assessment of what they find ‘better’. I am sure that these are all reported with the best intentions but as we well know, one mans better can be another persons worse. Hence why I apply a certain amount of salt (or YMMV) to various pronouncements. 

For me, I find that long term listening fatigue is a good indication that all is not well. Certainly this often overturns my initial assessment of what I think is better or worse. After fiddling with and without ferrites on my usb from Zenith SE to Blu2 or to Dave direct I have reverted to ferrite free usb. The cable is Supra usb. Nothing special but not cheap and nasty. 

At the end I guess all each of us can do is fiddle until we get the sound we like.


----------



## yakaway

They are not the same


----------



## Triode User

yakaway said:


> They are not the same



Of course they are not but if the P10 had issues it means that we should not always believe what we are told. Big, shiny and expensive is not always better.


----------



## Rob Watts

jonstatt said:


> There has been a trend to state that the only negative influence RF or EMI can introduce is brightness. Thus the A/B comparison many of us are doing when changing cables or equipment is to find the "warmer" or "darker" version, and ruling that it must be the more correct. But I think there is another kind of "noise" that gives the impression of not just darker, but smeared, as if the low level dynamics are blurred together. This seems to be an effect others have reported too with certain USB links and influenced by a choice of USB cable even. How else can you explain the fact that the USB connected version vs TOSLINK of an identical bitstream would sound "darker"?
> 
> I feel we have over simplified the influence of noise to always be added brightness.



If you are talking about analogue cables or other analogue gear I would absolutely agree, as there are a myriad of other factors that can influence the sound. But what we are talking about here is the very specific instance of bit perfect data being delivered to one of my DAC's via USB - and here there is only one mechanism that can possibly alter the sound - and that is RF noise injected into Dave and the rest of one's system. Jitter has absolutely no measured or subjective influence on my DAC's; it's bit perfect data, so the data has no consequence; the only thing that can possibly modify SQ is RF noise, which for sure changes the SQ (I have measured it many times and correlated it to SQ) by generating noise floor modulation. And increased noise floor modulation sounds brighter, and can easily be confused with improved transparency.


----------



## delirium

Triode User said:


> Regarding that I have mentioned before that I used to own a PSAudio P10 but it injected more RF/EMI noise into the supply than came out of the wall socket (measured by a meter).
> 
> On the general issue I think part of the problem with this whole discussion regarding usb/optical/RF noise/ etc is that we are relying on peoples reported assessment of what they find ‘better’. I am sure that these are all reported with the best intentions but as we well know, one mans better can be another persons worse. Hence why I apply a certain amount of salt (or YMMV) to various pronouncements.
> 
> ...


You will come a long way with a dedicated mains powerline.....


----------



## elviscaprice

Besides RF noise, once that is eliminated, kept at bay, isolation, I think it's all about clocking.  I look forward to John Swenson building his own instruments to study this issue and measure why external clocking can effect a bit perfect data stream and is cumulative from one component to another, regardless of reclocking.  Very difficult to correct.  Is it phase noise?  This difference in external server/component clocking can be heard in DAVE's direct output to speakers/headphones and not attributed to RF noise differences.


----------



## Rob Watts

With USB the source clock is completely irrelevant - clocking comes from the FPGA only as it is isochronous asynchronous USB. And the data crossing the galvanic isolation interface is clocked only from the FPGA clock.


----------



## ray-dude

delirium said:


> You will come a long way with a dedicated mains powerline.....



+1 

A dedicated 30A line with 10-2 Romex really cleaned up a lot of variability and randomness  I was hearing (much more relaxed listening experience).  

Extremely cost effective and a fantastic baseline for anything else you're tweaking.


----------



## Crgreen

Rob Watts said:


> With USB the source clock is completely irrelevant - clocking comes from the FPGA only as it is isochronous asynchronous USB. And the data crossing the galvanic isolation interface is clocked only from the FPGA clock.



Just to clarify, Rob. Is that also the case with the Blu II?


----------



## delirium

Rob Watts said:


> With USB the source clock is completely irrelevant - clocking comes from the FPGA only as it is isochronous asynchronous USB. And the data crossing the galvanic isolation interface is clocked only from the FPGA clock.


But the clock must matter with optical? No?


----------



## jonstatt

Rob Watts said:


> If you are talking about analogue cables or other analogue gear I would absolutely agree, as there are a myriad of other factors that can influence the sound. But what we are talking about here is the very specific instance of bit perfect data being delivered to one of my DAC's via USB - and here there is only one mechanism that can possibly alter the sound - and that is RF noise injected into Dave and the rest of one's system. Jitter has absolutely no measured or subjective influence on my DAC's; it's bit perfect data, so the data has no consequence; the only thing that can possibly modify SQ is RF noise, which for sure changes the SQ (I have measured it many times and correlated it to SQ) by generating noise floor modulation. And increased noise floor modulation sounds brighter, and can easily be confused with improved transparency.



I understand and fundamentally agree with everything you are saying. RF is what we want to eliminate. But to be clear, the ONLY way RF can affect the audio output is a brighter sound? Brightness is the only way RF can manifest itself audibly with DAVE?


----------



## elviscaprice

Adding a master clock to my sCLK-EX clocking board makes a big difference in sound stage from DAVE.  Without the master clock, the sound stage collapses compared to with.  Width/separation is what is effected.  I'm not the only one hearing this, as confirmed by others.  How it is that DAVE can be effected by these external clocking changes is beyond my technical understandings.  I can only hear the results.  And they are pleasing to my experience with DAVE.


----------



## TheAttorney

This Rob vs Romaz/Jay perspecive on the source's impact to DAVE is one of the most perplexing disconnects I've come across in a long time.

FWIW, I'm in the Romaz/Jay/Yellowblue/etc camp. I would LOVE to just have a simple connection between my battery powered laptop and DAVE. And I've gone back to that simple link a number of times and it's just not as good as my renderer solution, And it's not even a case of dark vs bright. I think "smearing" would be a better differentiator, as someone recently mentioned. Plus other characteristics that are not directly tonal in nature.

Assuming for the momement thay my camp is closer to the truth, then the only explanation I can think of is that Rob has so successfully honed his ability to recognise RFI and certain other specific effects, that he's letting that cloud his ability to recognise other aspects of what makes a good sound, i.e. "cannot see the wood for the trees". 

And if my camp is not closer to the truth, then I can happily live in blissful ignorence. I mean why would I walk away from what I consider to be a more lifelike, natural, engaging sound and settle for what I consider to be a flatter, grainer, blander sound - just because someone else (however qualified and experienced) says so? In the meantime, I'll occasionally keep retrying just in case I really did miss something.


----------



## Jawed

jonstatt said:


> There has been a trend to state that the only negative influence RF or EMI can introduce is brightness. Thus the A/B comparison many of us are doing when changing cables or equipment is to find the "warmer" or "darker" version, and ruling that it must be the more correct. But I think there is another kind of "noise" that gives the impression of not just darker, but smeared, as if the low level dynamics are blurred together. This seems to be an effect others have reported too with certain USB links and influenced by a choice of USB cable even. How else can you explain the fact that the USB connected version vs TOSLINK of an identical bitstream would sound "darker"?
> 
> I feel we have over simplified the influence of noise to always be added brightness.


Perhaps the system setup is bad: the system has been set up to "calm" a "bright, uncouth" source. The rest of the system smooths-out and calms the old source component.

So, when the source component is changed for something that should not be smoothed-out and calmed, the rest of the system turns into a smeary, blurry, mess.

It's illogical to blame the new source for sounding blurry when the rest of the system has been put together to blur an inferior source that sounds bright and uncouth. The old system was tweaked to "cancel out" the faults in the source. When you drop in a new source that doesn't have those faults, you should expect to have to change the rest of the system.



elviscaprice said:


> Besides RF noise, once that is eliminated, kept at bay, isolation, I think it's all about clocking.


What have you done to make sure that there is no RF noise getting into your DAVE?

Now playimg: Levi Patel - And She Translated into the Sky


----------



## Rob Watts

Crgreen said:


> Just to clarify, Rob. Is that also the case with the Blu II?



Sure



delirium said:


> But the clock must matter with optical? No?



No as the DPLL recreates a brand new word clock that is from the FPGA clock; the data is buffered and extracted from the buffer via the generated clock; any source jitter is eliminated. I know the DPLL works perfectly, as the USB/OPT tests on Hugo 2 revealed no change in SQ at all from my MSI lap-top. 



jonstatt said:


> I understand and fundamentally agree with everything you are saying. RF is what we want to eliminate. But to be clear, the ONLY way RF can affect the audio output is a brighter sound? Brightness is the only way RF can manifest itself audibly with DAVE?



In my 33 years experience of listening to the effects of RF yes - assuming the RF noise is signal uncorrelated, that is has no relationship with the wanted signal. And it's no great leap intellectually; white noise (hiss) sounds bright; add some white noise proportional to the musical instrument (that's noise floor modulation); a dull sounding instrument will sound brighter. Note my measured use of the word dull!

The curious thing is even extremely low levels of noise floor modulation is audible - I have seen (measured by simulation) noise floor modulation at -200 dB being audible - a level which you can simulate for, but would never be able to actually measure.


----------



## Triode User

elviscaprice said:


> Adding a master clock to my sCLK-EX clocking board makes a big difference in sound stage from DAVE.  Without the master clock, the sound stage collapses compared to with.  Width/separation is what is effected.  I'm not the only one hearing this, as confirmed by others.  How it is that DAVE can be effected by these external clocking changes is beyond my technical understandings.  I can only hear the results.  And they are pleasing to my experience with DAVE.



Unless there are people sat listening in the same room at the same time it is very difficult to have these conversations. One person might decide that your sound stage is a false creation added by noise from the extra piece of kit. Or alternatively they might be convinced by your sound and set about trying to find out why it is better. It might not be the actual clocking that is altering the sound if Dave really is immune from reclocked sources. 

Until then I think your stance of keeping with what you have got because you prefer the end result is entirely legitimate and I would do the same.


----------



## flummoxed (May 18, 2018)

Hi Rob,

There is some heated debate on another forum in relation to preamps and if TT and DAVE have one? If so is it passive or active?

This is in connection to active speakers and if there is a need for another preamp in between TT/DAVE and active speakers. Is there advantages or disadvantages either way?

Some clarification would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance


----------



## Rob Watts

None of my DAC's have a pre-amp inside - they all have the common strategy of a single amplification stage that combines DAC I to V's, differential to SE conversion, filtering, and headphone amp into one single amplification stage - that reduces down to one amp, two resistors and two capacitors in the direct signal path. This simplicity dramatically improves transparency. With the digital volume control, you simply do not need a pre-amp - that said, every time I have plugged a pre-amp out, I get rewarded with a big boost to transparency - but pre-amps do add a softness and bloom to the bass (due to coupling capacitors) which some prefer. I don't - the best sounding pre-amp is no pre-amp....


----------



## ZappaMan

Hey @Rob Watts, i keeping hearing about this msi laptop of yours . Could you specify the model you have please?


----------



## maxh22

ZappaMan said:


> Hey @Rob Watts, i keeping hearing about this msi laptop of yours . Could you specify the model you have please?



“It's an MSI 17.3" GT72S 6QF, UHD panel, Core i7 6820HK 2.7 GHz, 32GB RAM...”


----------



## ZappaMan

maxh22 said:


> “It's an MSI 17.3" GT72S 6QF, UHD panel, Core i7 6820HK 2.7 GHz, 32GB RAM...”


It seems like a very expensive laptop with various unnecessary bits, as I already have a gaming pc....
Does anyone know a cheaper stripped down  laptop that would act as a good source for a Hugo tt2?
Or what is it about the above laptop that makes it a non-noisy source?
Or if the usb is galvanised, would it make any difference anyway?


----------



## maxh22

ZappaMan said:


> It seems like a very expensive laptop with various unnecessary bits, as I already have a gaming pc....
> Does anyone know a cheaper stripped down  laptop that would act as a good source for a Hugo tt2?
> Or what is it about the above laptop that makes it a non-noisy source?
> Or if the usb is galvanised, would it make any difference anyway?



This is the cheapest MSI laptop I could find: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...54734&cm_re=msi_laptop-_-34-154-734-_-Product

$669 after mail in rebate. My personal laptop is the same as this one only it comes with an i7 instead of an i5.

I did some long research and it appears MSI is the only company providing offering spidif outputs on its laptops. You might be able to find some older laptops with spidif outputs though, but there is no guarantee its going to sound as good as the MSI ones. The gold plated ring helps block some RF noise for sure.


----------



## ZappaMan

Thank you I shall dig deeper !


----------



## drew911d

You know that current clamp you're using is basically a large ferrite?  It converts magnetic field into current, which can be measured.  The ferrites you add suppresses the magnetic field, or rather creates opposite fields in a/c circuits that effectively neutralizes it (noise).  You can't stack ferrites on top of others to measure what is happening within the first ferrites without extreme electromagnetic induction compensation calculations...  Basically rocket science which the clamp isn't designed for.




marcmccalmont said:


> Leakage current stock pwr cord into mains .54 mA
> Leakage current after ps audio power plant and Pangea pwr cord .16 mA
> Leakage current Pangea pwr cord and topnisus ferrites .05 mA
> For whatever it’s worth!


----------



## drew911d

Well said, I'm just catching up so my posts are outdated...  Correct, the ferrites will make it impossible for the current clamp to measure true leakage current.  The other two measurements are good information though, and your idea to measure a part of the cable without ferrites is good.  This clamp will measure overall current, being that it covers all of the wires, line, neutral and ground.  Having a current registered means the line current is not equal to return or neutral and ground.  This is what leakage current is. The current going in is finding another path to return that is not on the same power cable or circuit.  It is going through another component in the system that means a big source of noise.  In a perfect world, every component would have the same return current as supply current on the same supply cable, PS, and not force current through another component (leakage current) to find a return path. 

I work in the avionics industry and leakage current can be a critical requirement from some customers and regulations.  30 micro Amps of leakage current when we're talking about supplying hundreds of amps in 3 phase is sometimes a task to keep under.  It really highlights power and return problems.



Jawed said:


> Fascinating! I don't understand what's going on here.
> 
> My concern is that the meter may be sensing AC, and in doing so might be looking for a current at a particular frequency. And the ferrites are filtering at that frequency and so the reading may be a "lie".
> 
> ...


----------



## marcmccalmont (May 19, 2018)

drew911d said:


> You know that current clamp you're using is basically a large ferrite?  It converts magnetic field into current, which can be measured.  The ferrites you add suppresses the magnetic field, or rather creates opposite fields in a/c circuits that effectively neutralizes it (noise).  You can't stack ferrites on top of others to measure what is happening within the first ferrites without extreme electromagnetic induction compensation calculations...  Basically rocket science which the clamp isn't designed for.


But it is verifying that little to no interference goes beyond the ferrite making it a more effective shield (atleast at the low frequencies it tests but one can extrapolate improved higher frequency effectiveness)? So I'm going to place a ferrite on any cable or power cord where they cross each other and on Daves power cord where I hear a difference. I did test the same cord over the ferrite and over the bare cord. Over the bare cord that had been ferrited same readings as a non ferrited cord.


----------



## drew911d

marcmccalmont said:


> But it is verifying that little to no interference goes beyond the ferrite making it a more effective shield (atleast at the low frequencies it tests but one can extrapolate improved higher frequency effectiveness)? So I'm going to place a ferrite on any cable or power cord where they cross each other and on Daves power cord where I hear a difference. I did test the same cord over the ferrite and over the bare cord. Over the bare cord that had been ferrited same readings as a non ferrited cord.



I don't doubt it's filtering the noise from the shield of the cable.  But the measurement can't be accurate unless you can measure a bare spot away from the ferrites.  Would be interesting to see that measurement.


----------



## marcmccalmont

marcmccalmont said:


> But it is verifying that little to no interference goes beyond the ferrite making it a more effective shield (atleast at the low frequencies it tests but one can extrapolate improved higher frequency effectiveness)? So I'm going to place a ferrite on any cable or power cord where they cross each other and on Daves power cord where I hear a difference.





drew911d said:


> I don't doubt it's filtering the noise from the shield of the cable.  But the measurement can't be accurate unless you can measure a bare spot away from the ferrites.  Would be interesting to see that measurement.


yes that is what I measured and was the same reading as a bare cord


----------



## doraymon (May 20, 2018)

Latest developments in my quest to enjoy the Dave at its best:
- I moved the Roon Server (Mac mini with UpTone mod) out of the hifi cabinet and plugged it in in a different place of the living room, leaving the Dave as the only piece of rig if I exclude the laptop.
- After experimenting with ferrite cores on the stock power cord I decided to use my Ice Age Audio Silver-Silver cord.
- Battery operated MacBook Pro connected to Dave via a rock solid Sys.Concept Toslink cable

Finally, I switched off the air conditioning and the damn' dimmable living room light and switched to a battery operated $25 lamp (the best $25 invested in the last decade).

I've never been immersed in the music as in this very moment!

Ah, did I mention I also bought a pair of Utopia...?


----------



## Hifi Boy

doraymon said:


> Latest developments in my quest to enjoy the Dave at its best:
> - I moved the Roon Server (Mac mini with UpTone mod) out of the hifi cabinet and plugged it in in a different place of the living room, leaving the Dave as the only piece of rig if I exclude the laptop.
> - After experimenting with ferrite cores on the stock power cord I decided to use my Ice Age Audio Silver-Silver cord.
> - Battery operated MacBook Pro connected to Dave via a rock solid Sys.Concept Toslink cable
> ...


 I approve of this post.


----------



## flyte3333

Interesting/different take on active speakers by Andrew Jones.

Feed these via Rob's DAC's analogue outputs and the analogue signal stays analogue.

I've loved all of the Andrew Jones speakers I've ever heard - could be a nice pairing with Rob's DAC's, until Rob of course makes his fully active speakers.




doraymon said:


> Latest developments in my quest to enjoy the Dave at its best:
> - I moved the Roon Server (Mac mini with UpTone mod) out of the hifi cabinet and plugged it in in a different place of the living room, leaving the Dave as the only piece of rig if I exclude the laptop.
> - After experimenting with ferrite cores on the stock power cord I decided to use my Ice Age Audio Silver-Silver cord.
> - Battery operated MacBook Pro connected to Dave via a rock solid Sys.Concept Toslink cable
> ...



Nice! As Rob says, no ground/ leakage current loops, no RF worries!

So not a single ferrite needed.

And by using a USB audio source, you have the nice expensive clock that sits right next to the FPGA controlling the timing.

No surprise it’s sounding better than ever for you.


----------



## doraymon

Hifi Boy said:


> I approve of this post.


I feel relieved, thanks!


----------



## doraymon

Em2016 said:


> And by using a USB audio source, you have the nice expensive clock that sits right next to the FPGA controlling the timing.


Actually, the source is optical. But I guess that the ruling clock is the same.


----------



## flyte3333

doraymon said:


> Actually, the source is optical. But I guess that the ruling clock is the same.



Ah yes, I missed the optical part the first time. 

And since making the other changes, you re-tried USB from the Macbook (running on battery) direct to Dave, and still prefer TOSlink?

Just out of interest.


----------



## doraymon

Em2016 said:


> Ah yes, I missed the optical part the first time.
> 
> And since making the other changes, you re-tried USB from the Macbook (running on battery) direct to Dave, and still prefer TOSlink?
> 
> Just out of interest.


I haven't tried, no.
I was just enjoying the music...
Besides, the optical connection works perfectly up to 192kHz PCM and DSD64. That's more than enough for me.


----------



## delirium (May 21, 2018)

Hi! I said before that i prefered usb on battery.but after again optimized the laptop. And power lps to one mains and dave to another. And some acustic feet under laptop and dave? I prefered iso.lps? Maybe i should just buy a streamer? But it sounds good now. But i wonder if the laptop makes some noise still.i am a little puzzled by Rob yes......?


----------



## doraymon

On a different note while rolling a few power cables on the Dave I noticed a strange effect.
With some of them when touching the metal chassis of the DAC I could feel like micro currents flowing through my hands.
It happened to me in the past when I was using a dimmable bedside table lamp.
I don't have this with the Ice Age Silver I am using but I have it with the Ice Age Copper and the stock cable.
Any ideas what it is?


----------



## delirium

Now i got pollen coming thru the window. That can't be good for my utopia??? Omg. This hobby


----------



## Momogi

Hello everyone, first time poster but long time reader here.

I'am also torn apart on Romaz vs Rob opinion about source.
So generally I trust user opinion more than any word from manufacturer, especially report from a respected member like Romaz.
On the other hand, my listening sessions over the years has revealed that my ear prefer the 'dull and flatter' sound rather than the more dynamic, detail, toe tapping one. Because those livelier sound, to my ear, usually come with a price, that is brightness, which lead to fatigue.
So I think I'm with Rob on this one. Also, this makes me so happy because 1) This turn out to be the correct path, at least according to Rob,  2) I can save money, as there is no need to add various component to make Dave better.

Now I don't dispute the improvement that many member reported by using various chains & gears. But as Romaz pointed out, people have different sensitivity and preference, and my ears probably more sensitive to this brightness and fatigue issue.


----------



## Triode User

doraymon said:


> On a different note while rolling a few power cables on the Dave I noticed a strange effect.
> With some of them when touching the metal chassis of the DAC I could feel like micro currents flowing through my hands.
> It happened to me in the past when I was using a dimmable bedside table lamp.
> I don't have this with the Ice Age Silver I am using but I have it with the Ice Age Copper and the stock cable.
> Any ideas what it is?



I'm slightly guessing but it might be the stray electro magnetic field from the power cord creating a small voltage through your hands which then goes to ground on the DAC chassis (which is grounded) and that is what you are feeling. A properly shielded power cord (with the shield connected to earth) should minimise or or avoid this.


----------



## delirium (May 21, 2018)

Triode User said:


> Unless there are people sat listening in the same room at the same time it is very difficult to have these conversations. One person might decide that your sound stage is a false creation added by noise from the extra piece of kit. Or alternatively they might be convinced by your sound and set about trying to find out why it is better. It might not be the actual clocking that is altering the sound if Dave really is immune from reclocked sources.
> 
> Until then I think your stance of keeping with what you have got because you prefer the end result is entirely legitimate and I would


----------



## delirium

elviscaprice said:


> Adding a master clock to my sCLK-EX clocking board makes a big difference in sound stage from DAVE.  Without the master clock, the sound stage collapses compared to with.  Width/separation is what is effected.  I'm not the only one hearing this, as confirmed by others.  How it is that DAVE can be effected by these external clocking changes is beyond my technical understandings.  I can only hear the results.  And they are pleasing to my experience with DAVE.


I am starting to belive you on this..


----------



## Hifi Boy

doraymon said:


> I feel relieved, thanks!


What can I say. While I was reading your post, I felt a genuine enjoyment radiating from it, just as I'd expect from someone who owns a Dave. 

Please keep enjoying it!


----------



## jayz (May 21, 2018)

Em2016 said:


> Interesting/different take on active speakers by Andrew Jones.
> 
> Feed these via Rob's DAC's analogue outputs and the analogue signal stays analogue.




I totally agree when Andrew says with active you can reach levels not possible easily with passive. Easily is the key word there meaning alternative solutions possible but at a significant cost or with  limitations e.g. crossover-less single driver solutions.

He is also right to offer a pure analog path into the speakers because most manufacturers make the mistake of cramming digital processing into actives which prevents owners benefiting from advances in digital processing technology. One thing to note however is Andrew/Elac is late to that market. My Qutest feeds actives and the result is nothing short of stunning.



Em2016 said:


> I've loved all of the Andrew Jones speakers I've ever heard



The more recent Elac ones are okay (for the asking price) but I have heard his TAD Compact reference 1s on several occasions and wasn't impressed. The TAD top-end drivers are dual co-centric designs and the crossover crosses right within the highest sensitivity region with low order crossovers slopes result being the breakup of drivers is readily audible as harshness. Of course if you place them in a large ballroom 15 feet away from walls and listen from another 20 feet away (which is how they are usually demoed) maybe that might not appear to be an issue but for the asking price - thanks but no thanks.


----------



## elviscaprice

Momogi said:


> Hello everyone, first time poster but long time reader here.
> 
> I'am also torn apart on Romaz vs Rob opinion about source.
> So generally I trust user opinion more than any word from manufacturer, especially report from a respected member like Romaz.
> ...



No fatigue here, can listen all day to my sCLK EX/master clocked server feeding DAVE via USB.  I am very sensitive to any digital noise.  Have spades of detail within a wide stage.  Can't wait to hear what a M-Scaler brings to the table, which will be my next big upgrade.  You can save money by building your own optimized server.


----------



## Momogi

elviscaprice said:


> No fatigue here, can listen all day to my sCLK EX/master clocked server feeding DAVE via USB.  I am very sensitive to any digital noise.  Have spades of detail within a wide stage.  Can't wait to hear what a M-Scaler brings to the table, which will be my next big upgrade.  You can save money by building your own optimized server.



I believe you, that is also why I'm confuse. I have been following you, austinpop, romaz over at CA forum, and the majority there seem to agree about the improvement. Only thing stopping me to try your approach is time and money.

I just want to share that there are peope like me who prefer 'duller & flatter' sound. I'am open to try things, like many in here i have upgraditis, if the server and clock combo turn out to be good, I'm willing to change stance, but until that happen I'll stay with Rob's opinion.

By the way, i also use something similar to your low power server, an sd card player actually (i am not technical enough to build custom server like yours), using it's optical out and powered by 9v battery, to my ears, it beats my Aurender N100h. More fatigue free than the aurender.

Agree on the M-Scaler. But it's expensive, and the lead time seems to be forever, my friend ordered it since November last year, still hasn't arrived now.


----------



## elviscaprice

Momogi said:


> By the way, i also use something similar to your low power server, an sd card player actually (i am not technical enough to build custom server like yours), using it's optical out and powered by 9v battery, to my ears, it beats my Aurender N100h. More fatigue free than the aurender.
> 
> Agree on the M-Scaler. But it's expensive, and the lead time seems to be forever, my friend ordered it since November last year, still hasn't arrived now.



That is a smart alternative, low cost approach with the optical/battery low power server.  To upgrade from there, even DIY, can get far more expensive, but not at the nose bleed levels of custom servers.     
I will wait for the non transport m-scaler, no rush, enjoying the sound as is.


----------



## flyte3333

jayz said:


> My Qutest feeds actives and the result is nothing short of stunning.



Nice. Which actives?

I assume you use the digital volume control of your playback software?


----------



## doraymon

Triode User said:


> I'm slightly guessing but it might be the stray electro magnetic field from the power cord creating a small voltage through your hands which then goes to ground on the DAC chassis (which is grounded) and that is what you are feeling. A properly shielded power cord (with the shield connected to earth) should minimise or or avoid this.


@Rob Watts Have you had any experience with this with your Daves? Slight "current flowing" feeling when touching Dave's chassis? Can the reason be the one mentioned by @Triode User above?


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes and I have posted on it before - it happens too with my lap-top, and it's because the gear is not earthed. Un-earthed equipment has a leakage current, and when you touch a anodized surface, much of the time it is isolated; but occasionally, the anodizing is not fully isolated, so the leakage current discharges through your finger giving you the tingle; if you touch a grounded contact it discharges the stray capacitance immediately and does not tingle. It's perfectly safe, as Dave's PSU is a medical grade PSU with low leakage.


----------



## doraymon

Rob Watts said:


> Yes and I have posted on it before - it happens too with my lap-top, and it's because the gear is not earthed. Un-earthed equipment has a leakage current, and when you touch a anodized surface, much of the time it is isolated; but occasionally, the anodizing is not fully isolated, so the leakage current discharges through your finger giving you the tingle; if you touch a grounded contact it discharges the stray capacitance immediately and does not tingle. It's perfectly safe, as Dave's PSU is a medical grade PSU with low leakage.


Thanks, but this doesn't explain why it happens with some power cords and not with others. 
Or maybe is a matter of where I touch the chassis?


----------



## Rob Watts

Maybe some power cords are grounded some not? It's only anodized surfaces that tingle, such as Dave's chassis. Fully conductive surfaces are fine. I only get the issue in some hotels in Japan or USA, when earthing is not available. And it's the leakage current from my whole mobile rig - chargers, M scalers, Dave, and lap-top PSU's.


----------



## AndrewOld

Rob Watts said:


> Maybe some power cords are grounded some not? It's only anodized surfaces that tingle, such as Dave's chassis. Fully conductive surfaces are fine. I only get the issue in some hotels in Japan or USA, when earthing is not available. And it's the leakage current from my whole mobile rig - chargers, M scalers, Dave, and lap-top PSU's.



M Scalers? In your mobile rig? There is hope!!


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> M Scalers? In your mobile rig? There is hope!!



Yeah but look at his definition of his mobile rig "_my whole mobile rig - chargers, M scalers, Dave, and lap-top PSU's._".
He missed only the kitchen sink from that list of kit.


----------



## doraymon

Rob Watts said:


> Maybe some power cords are grounded some not? It's only anodized surfaces that tingle, such as Dave's chassis. Fully conductive surfaces are fine. I only get the issue in some hotels in Japan or USA, when earthing is not available. And it's the leakage current from my whole mobile rig - chargers, M scalers, Dave, and lap-top PSU's.


I have checked the earthing with a tester and it’s ok, so the problem can’t be coming from unavailable earthing.
Considering your pay grade I think I’m better off consulting a simple electrician, I don’t want to receive a 6 figures bill for these advices! Lol


----------



## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> Yeah but look at his definition of his mobile rig "_my whole mobile rig - chargers, M scalers, Dave, and lap-top PSU's._".
> He missed only the kitchen sink from that list of kit.



Not only did he miss the kitchen sink, but he also missed the Blu2. Game over I’d say, M Scalers exist. Just a matter of time before they are street ready. Let’s hope for restrained casework.


----------



## jayz

Em2016 said:


> Nice. Which actives?
> 
> I assume you use the digital volume control of your playback software?



They are AVI speakers. AVI have been doing actives since 2007 but the DM10s I have were introduced a couple of years back. It comes with analog inputs + an inbuilt preamp with remote controlled volume. Anyone visiting Edinburgh welcome to audition.


----------



## Crgreen

Zenith Statement vs Zenith SE — night and day:

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/mu...st&utm_term=0_ff6dfd0295-65e9d7b6b3-162412873

Time to ditch your old server and get a new one, to be replaced in 1 to 2 years. There could be a lively second hand market.


----------



## Triode User

Crgreen said:


> Zenith Statement vs Zenith SE — night and day:
> 
> http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/munich-high-end-2018-part-one/?utm_campaign=65e9d7b6b3-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_09_19&utm_medium=email&page=2&utm_source=Default+Hi-Fi++List&utm_term=0_ff6dfd0295-65e9d7b6b3-162412873
> 
> Time to ditch your old server and get a new one, to be replaced in 1 to 2 years. There could be a lively second hand market.



It will be interesting to see how far the upgrade path for the SE will take it towards the Statement and at what cost. I think any of us who invest in digital equipment know the name of the game and how fast stuff gets superseded. At least Innuos are giving full upgrade paths for much of its other kit which I think is very laudable.


----------



## STR-1

For me, it will be interesting to hear whether the USB upgrade option for the SE can surpass what the SOtM tX-USBultra powered by a Paul Hynes SR4 is currently doing for my SE.


----------



## xxx1313 (May 23, 2018)

STR-1 said:


> For me, it will be interesting to hear whether the USB upgrade option for the SE can surpass what the SOtM tX-USBultra powered by a Paul Hynes SR4 is currently doing for my SE.



@STR-1: By the way, many thanks for your earlier positive comments on Paul Hynes' SR4, which I also use now to power my tX-USBultra. Great PSU for a great USB reclocker!


----------



## minibox

Anyone ever try or hear a dcs network bridge with a dave or blu2/dave? The external clocking option might not make that big a difference with a dave vs inferior dacs but it’d be a fun experiment


----------



## Thenewguy007

elviscaprice said:


> No fatigue here, can listen all day to my sCLK EX/master clocked server feeding DAVE via USB.  I am very sensitive to any digital noise.  Have spades of detail within a wide stage.  Can't wait to hear what a M-Scaler brings to the table, which will be my next big upgrade.  You can save money by building your own optimized server.




How would a master clock work with the DAC?
Like say I buy this
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-000M-Ul...Clock-Generator-HIFI-/281937108477?rmvSB=true

So I would just connect a BNC cable from it to the Dave & power it on? Or would I connect it to a DDC rather than the Dave if that's my source?
Would it be that simple as plug & play or would some other configuring be involved?

And this would give an (subjective) improvement in sound quality?


----------



## AndrewOld

Thenewguy007 said:


> How would a master clock work with the DAC?
> Like say I buy this
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-000M-Ul...Clock-Generator-HIFI-/281937108477?rmvSB=true
> 
> ...



If you bought that you would completely waste your money. There is no clock input on the DAVE. Rob Watts knows a thing or two about designing no compromise DACs and I think you need to trust him to have used the best clock possible. If you dig through his posts on here you will find his comments on clocks - those which might seem better to someone who hasn't actually got a clue aren't necessarily better. If your DDC has a clock input it is imaginable that an external clock might improve it under some circumstances, though again I believe Rob has gone to great trouble to make the DAVE insensitive to preposterous amounts of jitter.


----------



## elviscaprice (May 25, 2018)

Thenewguy007 said:


> How would a master clock work with the DAC?
> Like say I buy this
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-000M-Ul...Clock-Generator-HIFI-/281937108477?rmvSB=true
> 
> ...



Don't confuse a master clock with system clocking with internal DAC clocking.  In short, no, there is no master clock input on DAVE, nor is one necessary.  The clocking we are upgrading resides in the system outside DAVE.  In theory and from our listening, clocks have an accumulative effect on a data stream and can effect the output of a DAC regardless of reclocking further down the stream or even within DAVE.  In other words, every clock effecting the stream needs to be accounted for and perfected.  Do no harm.  Same can be said of power.


----------



## minibox

elviscaprice said:


> Don't confuse a master clock with system clocking with internal DAC clocking.  In short, no, there is no master clock input on DAVE, nor is one necessary.  The clocking we are upgrading resides in the system outside DAVE.  In theory and from our listening, clocks have an accumulative effect on a data stream and can effect the output of a DAC regardless of reclocking further down the stream or even within DAVE.  In other words, every clock effectiving the stream need to be accounted for and perfected.  Do no harm.  Same can be said of power.


Do you have any experience with using externally clocked sources with Dave?


----------



## analogmusic

there's no way to do this with Dave. Hope that is now clear?


----------



## elviscaprice

minibox said:


> Do you have any experience with using externally clocked sources with Dave?



Yes, see my signature below.


----------



## EndGameSearch (May 27, 2018)

deleted.. posted to wrong thread..


----------



## jscmd2000

Still confused here... some of you are saying external clocking is not beneficial and some are saying all clocking have a cumulative effect therefore beneficial.
Would using a device like Mutec 3+ usb or Singxer su-1 and using AES input on the Dave be beneficial or useless?  Not just in theory but based on experience?


----------



## xxx1313 (May 31, 2018)

jscmd2000 said:


> Still confused here... some of you are saying external clocking is not beneficial and some are saying all clocking have a cumulative effect therefore beneficial.
> Would using a device like Mutec 3+ usb or Singxer su-1 and using AES input on the Dave be beneficial or useless?  Not just in theory but based on experience?



I have no experience with the Singxer su-1 and was not completely convinced of the Mutec MC-3+ USB (I returned it, when I had the Auralic Vega DAC), but from my personal experience, external clocking can be really beneficial. I like a combination of a SOtM tX-USBultra and an Uptone ISO Regen very much with the DAVE. Imho, both have different effects, however. The tX-USBultra adds space to the soundstage and allows even better resolution (but can sound a bit thin and unengaged), whereas the ISO Regen leads to a fuller sound with better dynamics. I like the combination of these units very much. The PSU of the ISO Regen is quite ok (LPS-1.2 and Paul Hynes SR4 are better of course), but be sure to replace the PSU of the tX-USBultra, which is extremely noisy.


----------



## jscmd2000

xxx1313 said:


> I have no experience with the Singxer su-1 and was not completely convinced of the Mutec MC-3+ USB (I returned it, when I had the Auralic Vega DAC), but from my personal experience, external clocking can be really beneficial. I like a combination of a SOtM tX-USBultra and an Uptone ISO Regen very much with the DAVE. Imho, both have different effects, however. The tX-USBultra adds space to the soundstage and allows even better resolution (but can sound a bit thin and unengaged), whereas the ISO Regen leads to a fuller sound with better dynamics. I like the combination of these units very much. The PSU of the ISO Regen is quite ok (LPS-1.2 and Paul Hynes SR4 are better of course), but be sure to replace the PSU of the tX-USBultra, which is extremely noisy.



Thank you sir, experience is what I needed.


----------



## jayz

jscmd2000 said:


> Still confused here... some of you are saying external clocking is not beneficial and some are saying all clocking have a cumulative effect therefore beneficial.
> Would using a device like Mutec 3+ usb or Singxer su-1 and using AES input on the Dave be beneficial or useless?  Not just in theory but based on experience?



Not suggesting it is the case with this particular question but in general, there is a problem with this hobby of ours in that we sometimes seek only our favoured answers when we ask questions or read reviews regarding items we want to purchase and we ignore the bits that we disagree with - irrespective of what is actually right. A very good speaker designer once said when hifi audio enthusiasts visit audio shows to discover new upgrades, by the time they enter the show, they have already made up their mind on what to get and in that sense, even if they hear a component much better than the one they have in mind, most will still go ahead with the originally intended product. And I am guilty of this in the past as well.

Now to the point... Rob Watts who invents/designs these great DACs has explained why external clocks will not benefit his designs. He has also stated why it is sometime possible that the added brightness external clocking brings may be to the liking of some particularly if the rest of the system if very warm sounding. Here is one of his previous posts regarding external clocks. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-326#post-12890487


----------



## doraymon

jscmd2000 said:


> Still confused here... some of you are saying external clocking is not beneficial and some are saying all clocking have a cumulative effect therefore beneficial.
> Would using a device like Mutec 3+ usb or Singxer su-1 and using AES input on the Dave be beneficial or useless?  Not just in theory but based on experience?


I’m sorry to write differently from others on this, I’m sure it won’t help you forming an opinion.
When I bought the Dave I already had a very nice Ethernet / USB cleaning chain: AQ-SWITCH-SE, sMS-200Ultra, tX-USBultra.
When Dave arrived I did many tests with and without the chain and also with direct USB connection from computer to Dave.
I couldn’t hear any difference whatsoever by adding the expensive SOtM gear and the only improvements I could hear were streaming through my battery operated MacBook via optical connection (best sounding to my ears).
I will post a link to my original post if I find it.


----------



## jscmd2000

jayz said:


> Not suggesting it is the case with this particular question but in general, there is a problem with this hobby of ours in that we sometimes seek only our favoured answers when we ask questions or read reviews regarding items we want to purchase and we ignore the bits that we disagree with - irrespective of what is actually right. A very good speaker designer once said when hifi audio enthusiasts visit audio shows to discover new upgrades, by the time they enter the show, they have already made up their mind on what to get and in that sense, even if they hear a component much better than the one they have in mind, most will still go ahead with the originally intended product. And I am guilty of this in the past as well.
> 
> Now to the point... Rob Watts who invents/designs these great DACs has explained why external clocks will not benefit his designs. He has also stated why it is sometime possible that the added brightness external clocking brings may be to the liking of some particularly if the rest of the system if very warm sounding. Here is one of his previous posts regarding external clocks. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-326#post-12890487





doraymon said:


> I’m sorry to write differently from others on this, I’m sure it won’t help you forming an opinion.
> When I bought the Dave I already had a very nice Ethernet / USB cleaning chain: AQ-SWITCH-SE, sMS-200Ultra, tX-USBultra.
> When Dave arrived I did many tests with and without the chain and also with direct USB connection from computer to Dave.
> I couldn’t hear any difference whatsoever by adding the expensive SOtM gear and the only improvements I could hear were streaming through my battery operated MacBook via optical connection (best sounding to my ears).
> I will post a link to my original post if I find it.



Thank you for your input and sharing your experience.  Much appreciated!  
I would have never found that post... invaluable information indeed from the creator himself.


----------



## paulchiu

To anyone who enjoys the Chord Stand with Chrome legs for the DAVE.
I now know the safest way to remove the haze from the nickle chrome without damage. 
PM me for details.

paul


----------



## doraymon

paulchiu said:


> To anyone who enjoys the Chord Stand with Chrome legs for the DAVE.
> I now know the safest way to remove the haze from the nickle chrome without damage.
> PM me for details.
> 
> paul


That Shunyata Alpha power cord is huge man! A bloody python lol!
I see you have a Moon 430 amp, can you comment on the comparison between sound straight out of the Dave and with the addition of the Moon 430?
Any audible difference in detail or tonality?


----------



## doraymon (Jun 2, 2018)

Does anyone have experience with Dave powered by toroidal balanced isolation transformers?
I’ve been reading a lot and They seem to be the only power “conditioning” devices which really work in reducing RF noise significantly.
Something like the Furman IT-1230 for example, although this might be an overkill In terms of current draw.


----------



## paulchiu

doraymon said:


> That Shunyata Alpha power cord is huge man! A bloody python lol!
> I see you have a Moon 430 amp, can you comment on the comparison between sound straight out of the Dave and with the addition of the Moon 430?
> Any audible difference in detail or tonality?



Adding the 430 to the DAVE did not add but did sounded less than when using the DAVE straight to headphones.  Using a tube amp from the DAVE does add more imaging effects.


----------



## paulchiu

doraymon said:


> Does anyone have experience with Dave powered by toroidal balanced isolation transformers?
> I’ve been reading a lot and They seem to be the only power “conditioning” devices which really work in reducing RF noise significantly.
> Something like the Furman IT-1230 for example, although this might be an overkill In terms of current draw.



When you are using the Utopia or Clear direct from DAVE, I found adding a power conditioner of other noise cleaning devices did have small effects.  Not all were positive to my ears but the Shunyata cords and conditioners made the dark even wider with top cans like the Utopia.  Especially true when playing DSD256 tracks direct from DAVE.


----------



## Mojo ideas

paulchiu said:


> To anyone who enjoys the Chord Stand with Chrome legs for the DAVE.
> I now know the safest way to remove the haze from the nickle chrome without damage.
> PM me for details.
> 
> paul


Hi. Use a polishing cloth that’s impregnated with silver polish they are available in most good hardware stores an some supermarkets like Waitrose in the U.K.


----------



## tunes

Just noticed a red light projected from the top of the DAVE.  Does anyone know what this signifies?  I can only find time sadly to listen to music on weekends and have been turning DAVE off during the week and leaving in standby mode all weekend.  Would it hurt just to leave on 24-7 and is there any significant energy waste in doing so??  

Thanks


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> Just noticed a red light projected from the top of the DAVE.  Does anyone know what this signifies?  I can only find time sadly to listen to music on weekends and have been turning DAVE off during the week and leaving in standby mode all weekend.  Would it hurt just to leave on 24-7 and is there any significant energy waste in doing so??
> 
> Thanks



The red light to the top just means the Dave is in Stand By mode. When it is 'On' it shows the green light to the top.

If you can only listen at weekends then it seems sensible to turn fully off using the switch at the rear during the week. At the weekends you could either switch into stand by when not listening or just leave fully on which is what I do.


----------



## tunes

Thank you for that sound advice. No pun intended.


----------



## ubs28 (Jun 8, 2018)

Does something like a DC Purifer 2 improve the Chord Dave? Or is it not needed?


----------



## flyte3333 (Jun 8, 2018)

ubs28 said:


> Does something like a DC Purifer 2 improve the Chord Dave? Or is it not needed?



This?

https://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/dc-ipurifier2/

Dave is AC powered... so the iPurifier2 won't work with Dave. And it won't fit anywhere


----------



## thisisnotaboutagirl

magiccabbage said:


> Just wondering if anyone has any info on the specs of this DAC? Or. if there will be a DAC only version.


I wonder how this compares with the yggy


----------



## ubs28

Em2016 said:


> This?
> 
> https://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/dc-ipurifier2/
> 
> Dave is AC powered... so the iPurifier2 won't work with Dave. And it won't fit anywhere



Ok cool. Many thanks.


----------



## Amberlamps

Triode User said:


> Yeah but look at his definition of his mobile rig "_my whole mobile rig - chargers, M scalers, Dave, and lap-top PSU's._".
> He missed only the kitchen sink from that list of kit.



Lol, his “mobile rig” specs.

You gotta love Rob’s interpretation of “moblie”.


----------



## miketlse

Phuca said:


> Lol, his “mobile rig” specs.
> 
> You gotta love Rob’s interpretation of “moblie”.


Yes, for Rob mobile does not refer to travelling on the tube to the office, but rather travelling via plane, then listening/testing pre-production prototypes in airplanes/hotel rooms.
So much dac theory knowledge, trying to maximise the productive testing time he has physically available.


----------



## music_man

I do not mean to Troll. If looking at DAVE or QX-5 TWENTY ETC, in that price range. Give the PSA DS DSD a listen. Might like it might not. I prefer it but using DAVE on it's side due to no room. If you do get the DS, you do want the Network. At $6,500 with network a pretty good deal if you like it. Plus they take trade in's last I checked.

DAVE or anything at this price does not need AC filtering other than a proper AC unit if desired for the whole thing. They do not need USB or Ethernet filtering either. Use good cables of your choice and quite frankly Mogami gold is fine but not for me. You spent the money on good hardware so let else is necessary. The next step from these are going to be MSB,DCS ETC. These are a good value spot if you can say that regardless of which you choose out of the three I have mentioned. Although I will note the QX-5 is more of a music server. I prefer a separate one. DAVE is certainly a good choice. Heck, I am using it right now! Only thing I would be careful is it is not upgradeable, they will just introduce a new model. DS is the only one they offer upgrades and each has literally transformed it. I think with the current software many would be pretty impressed. Or not.


----------



## xxx1313 (Jun 9, 2018)

ubs28 said:


> Does something like a DC Purifer 2 improve the Chord Dave? Or is it not needed?



iPurifier2 and iSilencer3.0 do not help with Dave, imo. I tried them, and both seem to reduce dynamics. I you want to try one of those little helpers, get an Audioquest Jitterbug (in case that you use USB). I really like it with my Dave.


----------



## tunes

Which would be the better option, 20 ferrite snap on EMI suppressors vs the Jitterbug


----------



## ubs28

xxx1313 said:


> iPurifier2 and iSilencer3.0 do not help with Dave, imo. I tried them, and both seem to reduce dynamics. I you want to try one of those little helpers, get an Audioquest Jitterbug (in case that you use USB). I really like it with my Dave.



Ok thanks. I will try that one out.


----------



## ubs28

I am planning to buy a new Macbook Pro once the new 2018 models are released. Those Macbook Pro's only have UBS-C connectors. Will there be a degrade in sound quality if I use an adapter from USB 3.0 --> USB-C?


----------



## xxx1313 (Jun 9, 2018)

ubs28 said:


> I am planning to buy a new Macbook Pro once the new 2018 models are released. Those Macbook Pro's only have UBS-C connectors. Will there be a degrade in sound quality if I use an adapter from USB 3.0 --> USB-C?



The only good adapter which I tried (and use) is this one:
https://www.audioquest.com/accessories/splitters-connectors-adaptors/adaptors/usb-a-to-c-adaptor

Better stay away from all those 7$ USB-c adapter cables offered at Amazon or Ebay.

AQ will also come up with a Dragontail USB-c adapter cable this year, but it is not yet available (even though their ultra short adapter linked above should still be better, imo).

P.S. I am no AQ representative, although it could look like this.


----------



## Triode User (Jun 9, 2018)

xxx1313 said:


> iPurifier2 and iSilencer3.0 do not help with Dave, imo. I tried them, and both seem to reduce dynamics. I you want to try one of those little helpers, get an Audioquest Jitterbug (in case that you use USB). I really like it with my Dave.



What can be reducing the dynamics? The devices surely cannot be altering the analogue signal or reducing the actual dynamics of the music. The more I look at this business of digital inputs the more I wonder about our subjective assessment of what is better with or without these extra devices. False dynamics or detail or sound stage are all readily faked by injected noise.

I am not getting at you or your assessments but when we have to rely on reported subjective assessment it becomes difficult. One mans detail is another mans brightness. One only reliable way I can tell of assessing RF noise is to select the least bright system which is also usually the one that tempts you to turn up the volume.


----------



## maxh22

Triode User said:


> *False dynamics or detail or sound stage are all readily faked by injected noise.*
> 
> *One only reliable way I can tell of assessing RF noise is to select the least bright system which is also usually the one that tempts you to turn up the volume.*




+1


----------



## xxx1313

Triode User said:


> One only reliable way I can tell of assessing RF noise is to select the least bright system which is also usually the one that tempts you to turn up the volume.



I agree to this, but no to the rest of your assessment. My system had less slam and worse dynamics with these two small units from ifi, imo. Moreover, of course subjectively again, there was less brightness with the Jitterbug than with iSilencer3.0. So according to your criterium to detect RF noise (less brightness), the Jitterbug was better. I also tried JB and iSilener in series and did not like the result. You are free to try yourself and share your opinion. These things do not cost much.


----------



## Triode User

xxx1313 said:


> I agree to this, but no to the rest of your assessment. My system had less slam and worse dynamics with these two small units from ifi, imo. Moreover, of course subjectively again, there was less brightness with the Jitterbug than with iSilencer3.0. So according to your criterium to detect RF noise (less brightness), the Jitterbug was better. I also tried JB and iSilener in series and did not like the result. You are free to try yourself and share your opinion. These things do not cost much.



Thanks for the reply. Yes, it is difficult. To be honest everything is sounding so good now that I am not tempted to buy these sort of things just for the fun of playing with them. I would rather sit back and listen to music. I did wonder a couple of days ago if I had gone too far in using the lack of brightness as my guiding parameter but having changed a couple of things back to how I used to have them I could quickly tell that my decisions had been correct after all.


----------



## xxx1313

Triode User said:


> Thanks for the reply. Yes, it is difficult. To be honest everything is sounding so good now that I am not tempted to buy these sort of things just for the fun of playing with them. I would rather sit back and listen to music. I did wonder a couple of days ago if I had gone too far in using the lack of brightness as my guiding parameter but having changed a couple of things back to how I used to have them I could quickly tell that my decisions had been correct after all.



Lack of brightness is a good guiding parameter, especially in combination with a holographic soundstage, imo. And yes, I am also enjoying my Dave very much, even without Blu2. So let's keep listening.


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> Which would be the better option, 20 ferrite snap on EMI suppressors vs the Jitterbug



Only you can decide especially as all ferrites are not born equal. This evening I was comparing 20 snap on ferrites to the 20 that I use on my Blu2 BNC cables. It was not the same result. 20 does not equal 20. So you have to try with the ferrites you have available compared to whatever else you are using. Also, for me personally I don’t use anything on my usb cables.


----------



## xxx1313

tunes said:


> Which would be the better option, 20 ferrite snap on EMI suppressors vs the Jitterbug



I agree with@TriodeUser. Different ferrites have different effects, so you have to try. The more expensive Wurth ferrites normally do a better job, but I would start with cheaper ferrites first. I use different ferrites on my USB cable, as well as a Jitterbug. So the best result could also be to have both (at least it is for me).​


----------



## music_man

You do not stick a Band-Aid on DAC's of this quality because their sound is not hurting. At the least does nothing. DAVE deals with USB on it's own. It is part of what we paid for.


----------



## Thenewguy007

music_man said:


> You do not stick a Band-Aid on DAC's of this quality because their sound is not hurting. At the least does nothing. DAVE deals with USB on it's own. It is part of what we paid for.



Maybe, but the more resolving gear you go up, the more changes any outside factors cause.

Swapping differing quality power cables & USB cables might not do much for a lower tier DAC, but they can drastically change/tweak a high end DAC.


----------



## music_man

I feel cables is different than USB circuitry. I highly recommend great cables. USB purifiers tend to work backwards on DACS at this level and beyond. On the MSB select the IFI literally crippled it.


----------



## Crgreen

Just to provide a bit of balance, I’ve found that the Iso Regen with battery power supply works well with the Dave, though I cannot say how much of this is down to the battery feed. It results in a more defined but smoother sound - more body - and seems to contain no artificial additives. I know Rob has been dismissive of such devices, though I’m unsure if this is based on his own listening or just theory. As the saying has it: “It may be well and good in practice, but what about in theory?” That, of course, is in marked contrast to his own R&D.


----------



## simorag

Same experience here. 

By comparing the ZENith SE straight into DAVE with the path through the ISO REGEN + LPS-1 (grounded via iFi Groundhog), I get more natural bass control and fuller sound, slightly improved transparency, better resolution and separation, larger soundstage.

I was hoping to simplify my chain when I replaced my Surface Pro 3 as a source with the ZENith SE, but the improvement provided by the IR was very apparent (at least to me, in my system), so those little boxes have to stay!


----------



## Crgreen

simorag said:


> Same experience here.
> 
> By comparing the ZENith SE straight into DAVE with the path through the ISO REGEN + LPS-1 (grounded via iFi Groundhog), I get more natural bass control and fuller sound, slightly improved transparency, better resolution and separation, larger soundstage.
> 
> I was hoping to simplify my chain when I replaced my Surface Pro 3 as a source with the ZENith SE, but the improvement provided by the IR was very apparent (at least to me, in my system), so those little boxes have to stay!



I found the new LPS-1.2 power supply with the revised SMPS make a small but significant, improvement.


----------



## rkt31

hugo 2 directly playing into benchmark ahb2 in low gain mode. speakers are kef r300 aided by monitor audio rsw12 sub. hugo 2 has amazing dynamics and clarity. it really makes everything alive. my room need some sound absorbing material which i will do in next few days. video and audio recorded with separate devices. cabling is all furutech custom one.


----------



## Chartreuse

Anybody heard the LCD-4Z vs. the LCD-4 straight out of the DAVE? Just got my DAVE and step 2 is to upgrade from the 5 year old LCD-2s I'm running, but I'm getting mixed info on whether the built in amp can really drive the 4s to their full potential or whether I should go for the "easier to drive" version. I listen to a lot of rock, and not quietly, so I want to make sure I can preserve the SQ at high levels. Can't really demo either of them without actually buying them and returning them.


----------



## Whitigir

music_man said:


> I feel cables is different than USB circuitry. I highly recommend great cables. USB purifiers tend to work backwards on DACS at this level and beyond. On the MSB select the IFI literally crippled it.


USB needs too many conversion steps, and then filtering, powering....etc....and ofcourse after every each step, your music will be crippled in one way or another.  Why does Dave only offer USB and not I2S at this much money ?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Chartreuse said:


> Anybody heard the LCD-4Z vs. the LCD-4 straight out of the DAVE? Just got my DAVE and step 2 is to upgrade from the 5 year old LCD-2s I'm running, but I'm getting mixed info on whether the built in amp can really drive the 4s to their full potential or whether I should go for the "easier to drive" version. I listen to a lot of rock, and not quietly, so I want to make sure I can preserve the SQ at high levels. Can't really demo either of them without actually buying them and returning them.



I'm expecting the LCD-4Z shortly and will comment of both straight out of my DAVE in my review.


----------



## Chartreuse

MacedonianHero said:


> I'm expecting the LCD-4Z shortly and will comment of both straight out of my DAVE in my review.



Then I eagerly await your review!


----------



## jacc

Chartreuse said:


> Anybody heard the LCD-4Z vs. the LCD-4 straight out of the DAVE? Just got my DAVE and step 2 is to upgrade from the 5 year old LCD-2s I'm running, but I'm getting mixed info on whether the built in amp can really drive the 4s to their full potential or whether I should go for the "easier to drive" version. I listen to a lot of rock, and not quietly, so I want to make sure I can preserve the SQ at high levels. Can't really demo either of them without actually buying them and returning them.



I only have LCD-4 but I seldom turn the volume passing -20db for most of my collections meaning that there are plenty of headroom.


----------



## esimms86

Obviously, this is HeadFi, however, this thread is also all about DAVE. In that context, I wonder what the buzz is regarding the recently announced Chord Etude amplifier. Is a Chord digital amp, then, still on the drawing board?

The first link includes a picture of a Choral stack containing Etude with BluDAVE. The third link contains a video in which John Franks gives a little intro to the Etude. UK pricing is 3900 pounds, expected to begin shipping in Q3 2018.



https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/etude/

https://www.whathifi.com/news/chord-electronics-launches-new-choral-etude-power-amplifier

https://darko.audio/2018/05/john-franks-rob-watts-talk-chord-hugo-tt-2-etude/


----------



## Triode User

esimms86 said:


> Obviously, this is HeadFi, however, this thread is also all about DAVE. In that context, I wonder what the buzz is regarding the recently announced Chord Etude amplifier. Is a Chord digital amp, then, still on the drawing board?
> 
> The first link includes a picture of a Choral stack containing Etude with BluDAVE. The third link contains a video in which John Franks gives a little intro to the Etude. UK pricing is 3900 pounds, expected to begin shipping in Q3 2018.
> https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/etude/
> ...



The digital amps are on their way and will no doubt be very exciting when digitally linked up to an MScaler and Dave (I mention Dave because that is the only DAC that I recall Rob Watts discussing being used for volume control of the digital amps).

'On their way' though is the same as guessing the length of a piece of string. I have long ago given up that game with Chord.


----------



## Thenewguy007

esimms86 said:


> Obviously, this is HeadFi, however, this thread is also all about DAVE. In that context, I wonder what the buzz is regarding the recently announced Chord Etude amplifier. Is a Chord digital amp, then, still on the drawing board?
> 
> The first link includes a picture of a Choral stack containing Etude with BluDAVE. The third link contains a video in which John Franks gives a little intro to the Etude. UK pricing is 3900 pounds, expected to begin shipping in Q3 2018.
> 
> ...



What class will that amp be?

Looks pretty small to be outputting 150 watts.


----------



## jlbrach (Jun 12, 2018)

jacc said:


> I only have LCD-4 but I seldom turn the volume passing -20db for most of my collections meaning that there are plenty of headroom.



I have the blu2/dave  and tend to listen to my LCD-4 anywhere from -20 to -10 with the occasional recording taking me to -5

depends on your source....most of my recordings  are non remastered CD's ...when i  listen to the mastered  versions via Tidal which are all remastered  i tend to listen closer to -20 consistently


----------



## Chartreuse

jlbrach said:


> I have the blu2/dave  and tend to listen to my LCD-4 anywhere from -20 to -10 with the occasional recording taking me to -5



Getting a little close there... if you were making the choice today would you go with the LCD-4 or the 4Z? 

I know Rob used the LCD-4 when demonstrating the DAVE, which tells me that he saw it as the ideal lens from which to evaluate his product (among those available)... that's as good an endorsement as you're going to get, but the 4Z wasn't out then. The 4Z is also like 25% lighter. 

If it sounds like I'm leaning 4Z, it's because I am... but I don't want to lose detail from the 4 by going with a 15 ohm driver.


----------



## miketlse

Thenewguy007 said:


> What class will that amp be?
> 
> Looks pretty small to be outputting 150 watts.


The link says class AB.


----------



## AndrewOld

esimms86 said:


> Obviously, this is HeadFi, however, this thread is also all about DAVE. In that context, I wonder what the buzz is regarding the recently announced Chord Etude amplifier. Is a Chord digital amp, then, still on the drawing board?
> 
> The first link includes a picture of a Choral stack containing Etude with BluDAVE. The third link contains a video in which John Franks gives a little intro to the Etude. UK pricing is 3900 pounds, expected to begin shipping in Q3 2018.
> 
> ...




Is it possible that the imminent stand-alone M Scaler will be in a similar case to the etude? Or will it be in a Hugo TT like case? Patience, patience.


----------



## Jawed

AndrewOld said:


> Is it possible that the imminent stand-alone M Scaler will be in a similar case to the etude? Or will it be in a Hugo TT like case? Patience, patience.


It should fit in the same size case as Qutest, I would say.


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> Is it possible that the imminent stand-alone M Scaler will be in a similar case to the etude? Or will it be in a Hugo TT like case? Patience, patience.



or both eventually (possibly different variations on the theme and at different price levels)?


----------



## miketlse (Mar 6, 2019)

AndrewOld said:


> Is it possible that the imminent stand-alone M Scaler will be in a similar case to the etude? Or will it be in a Hugo TT like case? Patience, patience.


I suspect that it is viewed as a member of the Choral range, so would have an étude style case.
[edit] I was proved completely wrong, as it turned out


----------



## jacc

Chartreuse said:


> Getting a little close there... if you were making the choice today would you go with the LCD-4 or the 4Z?
> 
> I know Rob used the LCD-4 when demonstrating the DAVE, which tells me that he saw it as the ideal lens from which to evaluate his product (among those available)... that's as good an endorsement as you're going to get, but the 4Z wasn't out then. The 4Z is also like 25% lighter.
> 
> If it sounds like I'm leaning 4Z, it's because I am... but I don't want to lose detail from the 4 by going with a 15 ohm driver.



As far as I remember different ohm will definitely sound  differently in the case of those Beyer DT cans.. I believe it is down to personal taste. Perhaps worth to give a test to those low ohm LCD cans including XC and X etc


----------



## Chartreuse

jacc said:


> As far as I remember different ohm will definitely sound differently in the case of those Beyer DT cans.. I believe it is down to personal taste. Perhaps worth to give a test to those low ohm LCD cans including XC and X etc



Well, if I could audition them I'd probably just audition the 4 and the 4Z side by side. Ideally I'm hoping somebody can share some impressions of the two out of the DAVE. Only other option, I think, is to order them and return the one I don't like, but I don't really like doing that...


----------



## miketlse (Sep 18, 2020)

Chartreuse said:


> Well, if I could audition them I'd probably just audition the 4 and the 4Z side by side. Ideally I'm hoping somebody can share some impressions of the two out of the DAVE. Only other option, I think, is to order them and return the one I don't like, but I don't really like doing that...


Here are a few posts for you to search through:
https://www.head-fi.org/search/10447275/?q=LCD-4&t=post&o=relevance&c[thread]=766517
https://www.head-fi.org/search/10447391/?q=LCD-4z&t=post&o=relevance&c[thread]=831345

Quite a few people are interested in the 4z, but I could not find anyone who had tried them yet.
[edited]


----------



## paul2qute

miketlse said:


> Here are a few posts for you to search through:
> https://www.head-fi.org/search/10447275/?q=LCD-4&t=post&o=relevance&c[thread]=766517
> https://www.head-fi.org/search/10447391/?q=LCD-4z&t=post&o=relevance&c[thread]=831345
> 
> ...


I was joking in that post mate, not ordered any headphones yet, think I'm going i.e.m's route, Atlas probably


----------



## miketlse (Sep 18, 2020)

[deleted]


----------



## paul2qute

miketlse said:


> Sorry, my confusion.


It's OK mate don't worry about it, have to pop back to the Chord hugo TT 2 site now,Dave out of my league so don't belong here


----------



## Chartreuse

The screen on my DAVE blinks off intermittently. I've got it on screensaver mode, but it's separate from that -- happens on any mode. It's fairly frequent, like if I change the volume three times (which turns the screen on for 30 seconds), two of those times will see the screen go off for 1-2 seconds before the 30 seconds is up. On other modes, it mostly happens a few seconds after I hit a button / change the volume, and then it's fine for a while. Does that happen to anybody else? Normal? Should I worry about it?


----------



## rayl

Chartreuse said:


> The screen on my DAVE blinks off intermittently. I've got it on screensaver mode, but it's separate from that -- happens on any mode. It's fairly frequent, like if I change the volume three times (which turns the screen on for 30 seconds), two of those times will see the screen go off for 1-2 seconds before the 30 seconds is up. On other modes, it mostly happens a few seconds after I hit a button / change the volume, and then it's fine for a while. Does that happen to anybody else? Normal? Should I worry about it?



It does that when settings are saved. Normal. And one of the more common new owner questions! (search on this thread.)


----------



## miketlse

rayl said:


> It does that when settings are saved. Normal. And one of the more common new owner questions! (search on this thread.)


Yes.
The only thing I will add, is that when you search, include 'posted by Rob Watts' and you should find his post explaining the blinking.


----------



## doraymon

Any ideas for a good server with optical output to run Roon Server and connect to Dave?
I would like to have a dedicated computer to place in the HiFi cabinet permanently, instead of using a Mac mini connected to the network and my MacBook pro streaming music wifi and then optical to the Dave.


----------



## ubs28

What kind of voodoo is this? I got a cheapo AudioQuest JitterBug and the difference is incredible. 

With the Jitterbug, it is sounding even smoother and more analog (while the Chord Dave sounded very analog already). Also the soundstage is bigger and more 3D? 

I only used the Focal Clear for testing and this headphone usually isn't that good for detecting differences due to it's lack of transparency. Will try the Focal Utopia tonight which will probably show even bigger differences.


----------



## ubs28

So, what kind of other "cheap" tweaks can I do to the Chord Dave to make it sound even better (sorry, I am not interested in a $10.000+ CD-player since I do not own CD's)?


----------



## ubs28

I should actually start training now, but I cannot stop listening to the Chord Dave now with this tweak


----------



## rgs9200m

Yep, I recently got the Jitterbug for my DAVE too and I like it; it reduces glare. It's not life-changing, but I do think it has a definite positive affect. I notice on the box it suggest using 2 of them inline. I wonder about that (too much of a good thing?). Has anyone tried that?


----------



## maxh22

rgs9200m said:


> Yep, I recently got the Jitterbug for my DAVE too and I like it; it reduces glare. It's not life-changing, but I do think it has a definite positive affect. I notice on the box it suggest using 2 of them inline. I wonder about that (too much of a good thing?). Has anyone tried that?



Yeah two jitterbugs plugged into different USB ports do also make the sound slightly more relaxed, but the effect is less than half of what one does.


----------



## ubs28 (Jun 16, 2018)

I think my Macbook Pro is just crap which is why the Jitterbug makes a big improvement with the Dave I guess.

I like the Chord Hugo 2 much better with the iPad Pro than with my Macbook Pro. So I already had an indication that something was wrong with this Macbook Pro of mine. Good reason to buy a new one when Apple finally releases the 2018 version


----------



## ecwl

ubs28 said:


> I like the Chord Hugo 2 much better with the iPad Pro than with my Macbook Pro. So I already had an indication that something was wrong with this Macbook Pro of mine.


I think there are two issues and they are different for Hugo 2 vs DAVE because DAVE's USB input is galvanically isolated and Hugo 2 is not.
iPad Pro sounds better than MacBook Pro with the Hugo 2 because there's more noise coming into the USB input. Even though Hugo 2 has great noise filtering, there is always a limit so presumably some noise is leaking through. We are also assuming you're playing bit-perfect with the MacBook Pro (which is not automatic, as opposed to iPad Pro which is always bit-perfect)
But the issue with DAVE in theory is that if your iPad Pro and MacBook Pro are running off battery, the galvanic isolation should prevent noise so there should be sufficient filtering that you would hear no difference between the two. Maybe it is possible to have so much noise from the MacBook Pro that you can't filter everything. But more likely, you might have the MacBook Pro plugged to the wall for battery charging at the same time. By doing that, you've created a ground loop so leakage current RF noise can go from your laptop into the DAVE (which JitterBug can filter some of). If you have to keep the laptop plugged in, one solution is to ground the laptop with a gadget like iFi GroundHog where you would use the USB adaptor to plug into an unused USB port to ground the laptop.

You can always try playing music from your iPad Pro to DAVE to see how it sounds. That should give you an idea of what sonic targets you should aim for...


----------



## Jawed

If the Jitterbug is that obvious, well I would say 20+ ferrites like those in my signature will be a shocker (they shocked me and the Jitterbugs were a tame improvement when I added them). Luckily 20 of those ferrites including delivery are about half the cost of one Jitterbug. I kept the two Jitterbugs in my system since it seemed pointless to take them out. I'd have to find a place to put them where they wouldn't get lost...

Now playing: Isaac Gracie - Reverie


----------



## jscmd2000

Does anyone have any experience with Pass Labs HPA-1 as hp amp for the Dave?


----------



## minibox

jscmd2000 said:


> Does anyone have any experience with Pass Labs HPA-1 as hp amp for the Dave?


Yes, I spent some time with the Pass paired with the blu2/dave at our last mini meet. I used Utopia's, Clears, he1000's and abyss phi's. I did an a/b between the pass and the cavalli liguid gold and preferred the liquid gold. Wider soundstage, more air and separation. Both amps are impressive and showed control and extracted detail from all the phones I used, but to my ears the cavalli was the clear winner.


----------



## Chartreuse

minibox said:


> I spent some time with the Pass paired with the blu2/dave at our last mini meet. I used Utopia's, Clears, he1000's and abyss phi's. I did an a/b between the pass and the cavalli liguid gold and preferred the liquid gold. Wider soundstage, more air and separation. Both amps are impressive and showed control and extracted detail from all the phones I used, but to my ears the cavalli was the clear winner.



How additive was it over the amp built in to the DAVE?


----------



## minibox

Chartreuse said:


> How additive was it over the amp built in to the DAVE?


All of the phones were great directly out of the Dave, especially the Utopia. Using the he1000 v1 and abyss, I preferred the addition of the cavalli.


----------



## minibox

Chartreuse said:


> How additive was it over the amp built in to the DAVE?


Still, in my opinion the best sound was blu2/dave -> xlr -> Blue Hawaii SE -> Stax sr-009.


----------



## musickid (Jun 17, 2018)

Does the ipad pro upsample to 48kHz? If so is that an issue with tidal? i assume as an endpoint with roon it stays at 44.1khz?

Would optical imac to dave solve all the above mentioned issues?

Finally how does dave improve on TT if anyone has an idea?


----------



## ecwl

musickid said:


> Does the ipad pro upsample to 48kHz? If so is that an issue with tidal? i assume as an endpoint with roon it stays at 44.1khz?
> 
> Would optical imac to dave solve all the above mentioned issues?
> 
> Finally how does dave improve on TT if anyone has an idea?


IPad Pro is bit-perfect with Tidal app, or you can use the Onkyo HF Player to play hi-res content/DSD bit-perfectly. I have never tried using it as a Roon endpoint though but I’m sure it’ll be bitperfect if that works.

Optical iMac also works but you would have to make sure you’re playing bit-perfect off the iMac. You can manually program it in settings or run a software that’ll set it right, like Audirvana.

I presume TT not TT2 you’re asking. DAVE has 20 elements in the pulse array DAC and TT has 4 elements (TT2 has 10 elements). That’s going to give you better resolution/noise floor. DAVE also has a superior power supply (power filtering network) compared to TT2 and over TT so once again you’re going to get bettter resolution and noise floor. Similarly, DAVE has a better noise shaper than TT2 which is better than TT. DAVE has 164000 taps vs TT2’s 98304 taps vs TT’s 28000 taps. Moreover, DAVE & TT2 uses the WTA filter to upsample to 256fs whereas TT only upsamples to 16fs.  These improvements would give better transients and timing accuracy. The summary of these results means in addition to better transients, timing accuracy, lower noise floor and better resolution but I think sonically, more importantly, you’re actually going to hear more realistic instrumental and vocal timbre with better macro dynamics and micro dynamics. Smooth vocals would sound smoother while dynamic drum strikes or guitar string plucks would sound more dynamic. You would also get deeper soundstage if that was originally in the recording (but a more compressed soundstage if the recording never captured it becauase you’re getting more accurate reproduction of the original digital signal).


----------



## musickid

Many thanks ecwl. Doesn't dave have an inferior noise shaper to TT2 which has the a second order analogue noise shaper unless i'm mistaken? What is the real world listening sensation dave to TT ie what do you feel?


----------



## AFWannabe

musickid said:


> Does the ipad pro upsample to 48kHz? If so is that an issue with tidal? i assume as an endpoint with roon it stays at 44.1khz?
> 
> Would optical imac to dave solve all the above mentioned issues?
> 
> Finally how does dave improve on TT if anyone has an idea?



As a Roon endpoint it will keep the original format (PCM or DSD) and the original sample rate.


----------



## ecwl

musickid said:


> Many thanks ecwl. Doesn't dave have an inferior noise shaper to TT2 which has the a second order analogue noise shaper unless i'm mistaken? What is the real world listening sensation dave to TT ie what do you feel?


DAVE and TT2 (and I think TT) have the same second-order analog noise shaper. The difference is in the digital noise shaper.
So I have to admit I have never A/B'd TT & DAVE. I ordered a DAVE and then my dealer liked it so much he brought in a demo for himself at the store. (It actually helped him sell a lot of speakers and amplifiers although most people don't realize DAVE was doing most of the work). Before he got his demo DAVE, he ordered a Hugo TT for a client. We got to audition TT but not TT vs DAVE. There is simply no comparison between DAVE and the original TT. We listened to them in a Wilson speaker system with Krell amplifiers by the way. I don't even know if people can get TT2 yet. I doubt my dealer will bring one in.


----------



## etnt

I did audition the TT vs Dave, but on a headphone (Kennerton Odin). The difference was apparent enough that I bought the Dave.


----------



## GryphonGuy

jscmd2000 said:


> Does anyone have any experience with Pass Labs HPA-1 as hp amp for the Dave?



I have always liked the Utopias direct out of DAVE headphone socket. Having said that, the ONLY device that I like from the auditions of headphone amps is the HeadAmp GS-X Mk2.

Regards
GG


----------



## rgs9200m

So should I try optical on my DAVE? So far I have only used USB input from my Windows 10 box.
 I read this in the conversation with Rob Watts a few months ago (pasted below from this thread). That is why I just used USB so far.
If I decide to use optical, can someone recommend a good mid priced cable or point me to something about this in this thread? Thanks in advance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

USB is widely believed to be a noisy interface. Some music server companies (Baetis) suggest you should avoid USB at all costs and that SPDIF is superior. Does this apply to the Mojo or DAVE?

_Just to make it 100% clear - the USB input will measure absolutely identically to the coax or optical inputs if the USB data is bit perfect.

I have set up my APX555 so that it uses the USB via ASIO drivers, and I get exactly the same measurements on all inputs - 125 dB DR, THD and noise of 0.00017% 3v 1k 300 ohms. I have done careful jitter analysis, FFT analysis down to Mojo's -175dB noise floor, and can measure no difference whatsoever on all inputs (with the APX always grounded on the coax).

If somebody does measure a difference its down to mangled data on the USB interface (or perhaps poor measuring equipment...)_

Which input sounds the best on the DAVE?

_With Dave the best input (by a tiny margin) is USB, then optical is very close. The BNC/AES depends upon the source and cabling._


----------



## Jawed

That's not Rob's current opinion. Optical is the reference and a preference for USB amounts to being fooled. It's not difficult to search for Rob Watts and the word optical and order by most recent first.

DAVE comes with an optical cable, there's no reason to buy another unless you need a longer cable. In which case you will have to pay for a high quality cable because cheap cables of 2m or longer will probably not support sample rates higher than 96KHz. Note that TOSLink optical never supports higher than 192KHz sample rate.

You must disconnect all electrical digital cables from DAVE to hear the benefit of optical. 

It may turn out that your USB setup sounds the same as optical. I'd say that's extremely unlikely, but it can be done.

Now playing: Low - La La Song


----------



## rgs9200m

OK, thanks Jawed for all that good info.
OK, would a mid-grade Audioquest like a Carbon or Cinnamon Optilink 10-footer do (around $100 to $200)?


----------



## musickid

Try kabeldirekt.


----------



## rgs9200m

OK, thanks for that.


----------



## rgs9200m

So I listen to many .dsf files (5644 kbps) because I really like the sonics (using DAVE's DSD mode). So optical cables won't support this?


----------



## x RELIC x

rgs9200m said:


> So I listen to many .dsf files (5644 kbps) because I really like the sonics (using DAVE's DSD mode). So optical cables won't support this?



Optical standard maxes out at 24/192 and DSD64 (5644 kbps) so if the cable is made well it should be fine.


----------



## rgs9200m

OK, thanks again.


----------



## Raghu6446

Hi own the chord dave recently 
I have problem with dave as I connect my headphone to dave with the start up the headphone start making wiered noise and sample rate changes from 44.1 to 88 . I have to switch off the dave and then restart it to function normally.
When I touch the dave I feel the internals running and get a feeling of an electric shock.is that normal.
I use the basic power chord supplied by chord and basic usb cable for iMac .
Headphones used focal utopia he1000 lcd3 Sony z1r hd800 stax 009 with wes2generation.
Looking for help


Regards
Raghu


----------



## paulchiu

Raghu,

Are you using this in India?  What is the humidity in the room with your DAVE?
Static discharge to your touch should not occur unless you are in a very dry environment.  
No, the DAVE does not have a ground port for us to add a grounding cable.
You could try one of the many third party higher grade cable and then add a grounding AC conditioner.

The simplest way to rid your body static electricity in case that you are in a very dry room is using one of these:
https://goo.gl/jduq3H

Very inexpensive solution before touching your DAVE or other electronic devices.
If static discharge is not the issue here, you may want to talk to your Chord Dealer in your area.

Paul








Raghu6446 said:


> Hi own the chord dave recently
> I have problem with dave as I connect my headphone to dave with the start up the headphone start making wiered noise and sample rate changes from 44.1 to 88 . I have to switch off the dave and then restart it to function normally.
> When I touch the dave I feel the internals running and get a feeling of an electric shock.is that normal.
> I use the basic power chord supplied by chord and basic usb cable for iMac .
> ...


----------



## Triode User

Raghu6446 said:


> Hi own the chord dave recently
> I have problem with dave as I connect my headphone to dave with the start up the headphone start making wiered noise and sample rate changes from 44.1 to 88 . I have to switch off the dave and then restart it to function normally.
> When I touch the dave I feel the internals running and get a feeling of an electric shock.is that normal.
> I use the basic power chord supplied by chord and basic usb cable for iMac .
> ...



I think that Rob Watts has posted before about this effect (the slight tingling feeling when touching the case which feels like a very mild electric effect) and that is something he has noticed with anodised casings but not with bare metal (I hope I have remembered correctly). 

It is possible that it is your body which is picking up stray electric fields and then discharging through the earthed Dave casing. The Dave casing is connected to ground (assuming your electric supply is properly connected to ground through the earth pin) and so the Dave case is unlikely to have any charge on it. Hence my suggestion of the cause being a leakage current through you.

That's one idea anyway.


----------



## miketlse

Raghu6446 said:


> Hi own the chord dave recently
> I have problem with dave as I connect my headphone to dave with the start up the headphone start making wiered noise and sample rate changes from 44.1 to 88 . I have to switch off the dave and then restart it to function normally.
> When I touch the dave I feel the internals running and get a feeling of an electric shock.is that normal.
> I use the basic power chord supplied by chord and basic usb cable for iMac .
> ...


The post by Rob Watts.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831345/page-693#post-13997944


----------



## Raghu6446

Thanks paulchiu, triode, miketsle 
Yes Iam in India but my room is well ventilated and not dry. Will try out options suggested . 
Wat about the wired ringing on headphones and change in sample rate wen connected for first time .


----------



## Raghu6446

Does the Blumk ii with dave benefit for headphones listening or is it only for speakers.


----------



## TheAttorney

Raghu6446 said:


> Hi own the chord dave recently
> I have problem with dave as I connect my headphone to dave with the start up the headphone start making wiered noise and sample rate changes from 44.1 to 88 . I have to switch off the dave and then restart it to function normally.



On rare occasions, my DAVE gets the sample rate wrong and displays, typically, 88 instead of 44, in which case the sound is extremely distorted and unlistenable. 

This typically happens when the upstream components (microRendu and/or ISORegen) have just been powered up. Sometimes powering the upstream component off-and-on-again fixes this, but  the more consistent fix is to switch DAVE off-and-on-again. I prefer to do this by putting DAVE in and out of Standby, as the power off causes a big bang at the headphones if they are connected at the time (as has been noted before).

I don't know what causes this, but guess that it's a handshake error when the upstream component is in a transient state immediately after power up.
As I generally leave all these components on 24/7 (DAVE in standby when not in use), this is a rare issue in practice.


----------



## Crgreen

TheAttorney said:


> On rare occasions, my DAVE gets the sample rate wrong and displays, typically, 88 instead of 44, in which case the sound is extremely distorted and unlistenable.
> 
> This typically happens when the upstream components (microRendu and/or ISORegen) have just been powered up. Sometimes powering the upstream component off-and-on-again fixes this, but  the more consistent fix is to switch DAVE off-and-on-again. I prefer to do this by putting DAVE in and out of Standby, as the power off causes a big bang at the headphones if they are connected at the time (as has been noted before).
> 
> ...



When you reconnect such devices, it’s probably best to reboot your laptop or streamer so that it makes a fresh connection with Dave through those devices. Fiddling with the USB chain without then doing that often results in connection issues.


----------



## Raghu6446

Thanks theAttorney and crgreen

Does this not cause any damage to headphones


----------



## Raghu6446

I don’t get this mismatched sample rate wen connected to external amplifier. Can’t really understand y this happens. As might cause serious damage to headphones.


----------



## hmartin

TheAttorney said:


> On rare occasions, my DAVE gets the sample rate wrong and displays, typically, 88 instead of 44, in which case the sound is extremely distorted and unlistenable.
> 
> This typically happens when the upstream components (microRendu and/or ISORegen) have just been powered up. Sometimes powering the upstream component off-and-on-again fixes this, but  the more consistent fix is to switch DAVE off-and-on-again. I prefer to do this by putting DAVE in and out of Standby, as the power off causes a big bang at the headphones if they are connected at the time (as has been noted before).
> 
> ...


Yes agree, not a big problem only happen with a newly power on source.

I find the easiest fix is to press "STOP" and then play a song of "the different sampling rate" i.e. if you have e.g. 88 kHz or DSD play a song with e.g. 48 kHz and if you have 96 kHz play a song with 44.1 kHz. The "STOP" is to avoid a "bang" if Dave has e.g. identifed e.g. 44.1 kHz as DSD.


----------



## Crgreen

hmartin said:


> Yes agree, not a big problem only happen with a newly power on source.
> 
> I find the easiest fix is to press "STOP" and then play a song of "the different sampling rate" i.e. if you have e.g. 88 kHz or DSD play a song with e.g. 48 kHz and if you have 96 kHz play a song with 44.1 kHz. The "STOP" is to avoid a "bang" if Dave has e.g. identifed e.g. 44.1 kHz as DSD.



I thought Dave muted for a short period when making such changes. I have noticed that when switching from DSD to PCM a different data rate is displayed, but this is corrected when playing a new file. As to damage, I’d have thought that disconnecting headphones and muting the amplifier would be the best thing to do when disconnecting and reconnecting components.


----------



## hmartin

Crgreen said:


> I thought Dave muted for a short period when making such changes. I have noticed that when switching from DSD to PCM a different data rate is displayed, but this is corrected when playing a new file. As to damage, I’d have thought that disconnecting headphones and muting the amplifier would be the best thing to do when disconnecting and reconnecting components.



Yes it is very strange. Even if you manually mute Dave you sometimes get a "bang" so it must be some kind of bug in the Dave software.


----------



## Jawed

Raghu6446 said:


> I don’t get this mismatched sample rate wen connected to external amplifier. Can’t really understand y this happens. As might cause serious damage to headphones.


If connecting to an amplifier solves a problem, it might imply that there is something up with the earthing of your DAVE. I'm guessing that DAVE is not connected to earth, but when you connect your amplifier to DAVE, the connection to earth is being made, because the amplifier has a connection to earth.

You reported a tingling sensation with your DAVE. Does this occur when the amplifier is connected to DAVE or disconnected? Or, does that make no difference?

Another thing to check: when your amplifier is connected to DAVE, can you make sure the mains cable for the amplifier and the mains cable for DAVE are both going into a single wall plate (e.g. the plate has two sockets) or both are plugged into the same power block extension.

For what it's worth, my DAVE has never made a horrible noise through headphones when switching on or off using the rear switch. Admittedly my DAVE is on 24/7, so the only time I use the switch is when doing a mains cable experiment, which, thankfully, I won't be doing again.


----------



## Raghu6446

I think the dave is not earthed properly . I connect both the cables to the same socket. Wen connected to amp I don’t get that tingling sensation . I feel due to inadequate earthing to dave all these problems r occurring. I was worried about the headphones this might damage the diaphragm. Also worried as this may cause damage to dave as well . Thanks jawed


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## Raghu6446

I have an another question
Is daveblu2 best for speakers or headphones


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## Jawed

Raghu6446 said:


> I think the dave is not earthed properly . I connect both the cables to the same socket. Wen connected to amp I don’t get that tingling sensation . I feel due to inadequate earthing to dave all these problems r occurring. I was worried about the headphones this might damage the diaphragm. Also worried as this may cause damage to dave as well . Thanks jawed


Does your mains cable for your amplifier fit into DAVE's socket? If so, then use that mains cable for DAVE, and disconnect DAVE from the amplifier. Then see if DAVE still has the problems.

Another test you can try: feed DAVE with a USB source that is running off its battery with no connection to the mains. This could be a laptop, phone or tablet. Or, feed DAVE with only an optical cable from a digital source, disconnecting all the other digital cables from DAVE. This test is to eliminate a mains problem between your USB source and DAVE.

If DAVE fails these two tests then it might imply that DAVE's internal connection to earth is not present, which would be peculiar. I am running out of ideas...


----------



## Raghu6446

I changed the power cable it’s working fine now . Thanks jawed 
I have mojo Hugo tt and now dave can’t imagine how good dave sounds wat a piece of creation by mr watts it’s phenomenal soundstage depth and resolution. Iam planning to buy blu2 Iam only headphone listener your suggestions jawed


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## jlbrach

i  am using dave/blu2  with headphones ....quite  wonderful


----------



## Triode User

I am using Dave/Blu2 with speakers. Also wonderful. The bottom line is that is is amazing with both.


----------



## SCBob

Triode User said:


> I am using Dave/Blu2 with speakers. Also wonderful. The bottom line is that is is amazing with both.


Have you listened to Utopia with Dave compared to Utopia with Dave/Blu2? Would appreciate your thoughts if you have. I am trying to decide whether or not to add Blu2 for headphone use only. Thanks.


----------



## ecwl

SCBob said:


> Have you listened to Utopia with Dave compared to Utopia with Dave/Blu2? Would appreciate your thoughts if you have. I am trying to decide whether or not to add Blu2 for headphone use only. Thanks.


I would say if you can afford Blu2 and you are an audiophile, getting Blu2 for the Utopia is a no brainer. It simply provides a level of performance I didn’t even know existed for a DAC system. You can definitely hear the Blu2 upgrade with the Focal Utopia headphones with great clarity. That said, DAVE is already so good, I have trouble recommending Blu2 to audiophile friends who have to stretch their finances to afford it or to people who probably wouldn’t appreciate the sonic upgrade because they’re not that into audio. But that’s more about money and how I think we should spend it. It probably has absolutely nothing to do with how great Blu2 is.


----------



## Chartreuse

ecwl said:


> I would say if you can afford Blu2 and you are an audiophile, getting Blu2 for the Utopia is a no brainer. It simply provides a level of performance I didn’t even know existed for a DAC system. You can definitely hear the Blu2 upgrade with the Focal Utopia headphones with great clarity. That said, DAVE is already so good, I have trouble recommending Blu2 to audiophile friends who have to stretch their finances to afford it or to people who probably wouldn’t appreciate the sonic upgrade because they’re not that into audio. But that’s more about money and how I think we should spend it. It probably has absolutely nothing to do with how great Blu2 is.




The thing I have a hard time with is that you’re buying a cd transport for its upscaling feature; it’s like buying a $150 cable and landline package just because you want to watch Game of Thrones. I gotta believe there’s a stand-alone upscaler on the horizon so I’m not paying for so much that I don’t intend to use.


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## minibox

Raghu6446 said:


> I have an another question
> Is daveblu2 best for speakers or headphones


Both. Depending on how revealing your amplification components and speakers are, you can notice a profound difference. The tonality is very similar but there is much greater separation, depth and clarity.


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## ecwl

Chartreuse said:


> The thing I have a hard time with is that you’re buying a cd transport for its upscaling feature; it’s like buying a $150 cable and landline package just because you want to watch Game of Thrones. I gotta believe there’s a stand-alone upscaler on the horizon so I’m not paying for so much that I don’t intend to use.


At many levels I agree with you. In Canada, that’s exactly what I do to watch Game of Thrones. Once again, I wouldn’t recommend most of my friends to do that. But I do invite them over to watch. The question then is when is the M-Scaler coming out and how much would it cost when it does? Just like people can wait till Game of Thrones comes out on Blu-ray to watch that... some of my friends would call me stupid and would insist on waiting for the Blu-rays. Some would pirate. And some would just say watching Game of Thrones is stupid in the first place. Just as I said, this discussion as you can see have very little to do with how great (or not) Game of Thrones or Blu2 is. It’s more about how we want to spend our money on things that we are passionate about. And who’s to judge? It’s our own money and our own lives...


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## Raghu6446

For speakers the blu2 definitely is a must bcoz it adds to the performance of dave but for headphones How much can the blu2 add in performance is still debatable.
We don’t know wen the new standalone M scaler comes out and how it performs with headphones.
Any suggestions from owners of daveblu2


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## etnt

I'm using the bludave with headphones only and I do not need to debate about the performance or difference it brings over just dave alone.


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## musickid

Mscaler or blu2 with dave is optimised for speakers and headphones. There is no other way to understand this. Of course your headphones must be able to resolve blu2's qualities.


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## Raghu6446

Thanks etnt and music kid 
Nice to understand that daveblu2 scales up very well with headphones . 
The dave alone is so good that I don’t feel buying any more gear as it gets the best of my headphones (utopia he1000 lcd3 HD 800 z1r stax 009 with WES2 gen) was just imagining and reading from forums wat blu2 could do so the quest for the best is achieved in terms of quality of sound.
Will place an order for blu2 
Thanks everyone for help


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## musickid (Jun 21, 2018)

Blu2 only performs as strongly as your weakest link in the chain is. Make sure all cables and headphones allow blu2 to exhibit what it is truly capable of. i.e. the headphones are able to resolve to that level.


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## etnt

I used to think dave is the end of the road for me too, till I heard the demo of bludave with my headphones. Stock cables/interconnects/powercable used.

If you can, find a demo to listen to, but given stock availability, it might prove to be difficult.

Else if blu is not to your taste, give the demand, it should not be difficult for you to find a buyer.


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## Raghu6446

No way I can get a demo here in India as the dealer also does not have it. 
But have made up my mind I already placed the order. 
Yeah will make sure to use proper cables and interconnects. I have to use 75ohms BNC connectors between blu and dave.


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## JaZZ (Jun 21, 2018)

Raghu6446 said:


> No way I can get a demo here in India as the dealer also does not have it.
> But have made up my mind *I already placed the order.*


But what if the long-awaited separate M-Scaler will be presented at Canjam London next month – for half the price?


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## Jiffi32

JaZZ said:


> But what if the long-awaited separate M-Scaler will be presented at Canjam London next month – for half the price?



Then I would be very cross as I've just been notified that my BLU2 in black has just shipped from Chord


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## musickid

How does a blu2 get to India? Can you imagine a solitary blu2 deep in the cargo hold of a maersk ship or BA 747 cargo. Its a hard life for the blu indeed. lol


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## Raghu6446

Indeed it would be hard for blu2. But I would be happy with my blu2 unless there is a massive difference in new technology which differentiate from blu2.


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## OK-Guy (Jun 21, 2018)

*North West Audio Show 2018*


*Venue: De Vere Cranage Estate, Byley Lane, Holmes Chapel, Cheshire CW4 8EW*


*Date(s): Saturday 23rd & Sunday 24th June 2018*



*Chord Electronics and KEF Speakers will be exhibiting the following hi-fi equipment:- *


*Show-System 1:  KEF Ref.1 speakers with the Chord Choral hi-fi system (featuring the Blu, Dave and the new Etude power-amplifier) *


*Show-System 2: the new Hugo TT-2 with TToby power-amp featuring the much heralded KEF LS50 loudspeakers*


_*Come see and hear these wonderful hi-fi systems... free-entry, free-parking, 'live' music and plenty more.*_​


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## STR-1

JaZZ said:


> But what if the long-awaited separate M-Scaler will be presented at Canjam London next month – for half the price?


Yes, I believe we will see the M-scaler at Canjam.  Rob said he will be introducing one of his designs there and I can’t think of anything else it could be.  We might also see a prototype of the 2Go module, but I don’t think that is one of Rob’s designs, and a headphone show like Canjam is not the place to introduce a digital amp.


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## musickid

davina?


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## minibox

Raghu6446 said:


> Thanks etnt and music kid
> Nice to understand that daveblu2 scales up very well with headphones .
> The dave alone is so good that I don’t feel buying any more gear as it gets the best of my headphones (utopia he1000 lcd3 HD 800 z1r stax 009 with WES2 gen) was just imagining and reading from forums wat blu2 could do so the quest for the best is achieved in terms of quality of sound.
> Will place an order for blu2
> Thanks everyone for help


You won’t be disappointed. 4 of us at our last headphone meet did an a/b with standalone dave and blu2/dave. The headphones we used were Utopia, Elex, stax sr-009 (blue Hawaii amplification), abyss phi, HiFi man he-1000. The difference between the two was immediately clear and all of us heard it within seconds.


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## Raghu6446

Thanks minibox 
Does dave require burn in . As out of the box sounds fantastic .


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## musickid

No burn in.


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## SCBob

ecwl said:


> I would say if you can afford Blu2 and you are an audiophile, getting Blu2 for the Utopia is a no brainer. It simply provides a level of performance I didn’t even know existed for a DAC system. You can definitely hear the Blu2 upgrade with the Focal Utopia headphones with great clarity. That said, DAVE is already so good, I have trouble recommending Blu2 to audiophile friends who have to stretch their finances to afford it or to people who probably wouldn’t appreciate the sonic upgrade because they’re not that into audio. But that’s more about money and how I think we should spend it. It probably has absolutely nothing to do with how great Blu2 is.


Thanks to all who have commented on adding Blu2 to Dave with headphones. It should be a good move to make. I also went back to a post by ray-dude, a review of Blu2, in which he discusses the incredible quality of CD play via Blu2/Dave. Since I still have all the CDs I collected over the years the Blu2 will have an advantage over the upcoming(?) M-scaler.


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## commtrd

What are Blu2 and Mscaler?


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## miketlse

commtrd said:


> What are Blu2 and Mscaler?


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/


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## STR-1

musickid said:


> davina?


Not according to this post from Rob
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831343/page-236#post-14286035


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## Raghu6446

Which is the best mode wen connected to external amplifier ( dac or preamp). Will there be difference in quality of sound if choosing one over the other.


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## jonstatt

Jawed said:


> For what it's worth, my DAVE has never made a horrible noise through headphones when switching on or off using the rear switch. Admittedly my DAVE is on 24/7, so the only time I use the switch is when doing a mains cable experiment, which, thankfully, I won't be doing again.



I have found DAVE can make a bit of a bang if music is playing while you switch off at the rear. It’s quiet if no sound is output. However I found the streamer I was using had a bug where it was outputting “something” that I couldn’t hear under certain scenarios and that would also cause a pop if switching off at the rear.

Occasionally if I switch on blu 2 while Dave is on but muted , I hear some digital noise for a brief moment.

So I think there are some scenarios where things aren’t quite ideal.


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## ecwl

Raghu6446 said:


> Which is the best mode wen connected to external amplifier ( dac or preamp). Will there be difference in quality of sound if choosing one over the other.


DAC mode I think it's just the preamp mode with the volume set at either -3dB (I think but I can't remember for sure as it could be 3dB), providing 3V RMS unbalanced output. The best mode is to not have a preamplifier and directly connect Chord DAVE into a speaker amplifier via unbalanced output and then use the digital preamp of Chord DAVE to control volume. Because that way you have the best transparency. And you probably don't want to use a class D amplifier. If you have to use a preamplifier, the issue is whether your preamplifier would clip a 3V RMS unbalanced input. It turns out more preamplifiers than we think seems to do that. If they do, then obviously, you should attenuate DAVE to 1V or 2V RMS output by setting the volume of DAVE to maybe -13dB or -7dB respectively? Like I said, I can't remember the exact settings since I hook up my speaker amplifier to DAVE directly.

Another idiosyncracy you have to remember is that the crossfeed setting when you have the headphones plugged in stays even when you unplug the headphones and feed DAVE into speakers. So if you're listening to speakers, you'd want to plug in your headphones, set the crossfeed back to 0 before unplugging the headphones and listening to speakers. And then when you listen to headphones, you can set the crossfeed back to 3 if that's your preferred setting.


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## Raghu6446

I don’t use for speakers it’s for my stax 009 and WES 2 gen . In dac mode the output is -3db and can’t control the volume its fixed.
I tried out both preferred dac mode for headphones. 
Should I keep HF fill on or off for headphones


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## Raghu6446

It’s +3db


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## elviscaprice

As much as I enjoy headphones with the DAVE, it really shines with external speakers direct/ sub.  It's by far my preferred listening choice over my LCD-X's.  A whole different level of sound stage listening that no headphone could ever give.


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## jlbrach

etnt said:


> I'm using the bludave with headphones only and I do not need to debate about the performance or difference it brings over just dave alone.



I use  my dave/blu2 with either the abyss, utopia  or LCD-4...all  sound fabulous...i have also  used the HE-1000 v2 which is terrific as well...i originally thought I would be using it with my loudspeaker system but ultimately set it up with my  HPs


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## etnt

If only chord have something for in car use


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## ecwl

Raghu6446 said:


> I don’t use for speakers it’s for my stax 009 and WES 2 gen . In dac mode the output is -3db and can’t control the volume its fixed.
> I tried out both preferred dac mode for headphones.
> Should I keep HF fill on or off for headphones


HF On for DAVE. When you get your Blu2, you can turn HF Off


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## ecwl

etnt said:


> If only chord have something for in car use


I totally agree. I would totally upgrade my car audio system with a Chord DAC product. I do worry some car systems run on class D amps though.


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## GryphonGuy

musickid said:


> davina?



I think Davina, as a product, is a long way off if you see what Rob has been writing about lately. As late as 1 month ago he was talking in the future tense about how it should prove how good his What...oops, WTA filters are in recreating the original analogue waveform.

I say What (jokingly) above because that is one expression that springs to mind when I listen to the timbres of instruments and transients produced by DAVE in my system.

Regards
GG


----------



## Jawed

Is anyone running DAVE into Anthony Gallo Strada 2 with TR-3d? 

I'm thinking that RCA out on DAVE can go direct to Strada 2 and XLR out can go to the line-in inputs on the TR-3d. DAVE would be driving the Strada 2 "full range" in this setup with the crossover on the TR-3d only affecting the bass integration by manipulating the subwoofer's "crossover frequency" and level.

Page 10 of the TR-3d manual:

https://www.roundsound.com/manuals/TR3D Instruction Manual.pdf

seems to specify this as the "default" configuration for TR-3d + Strada 2. (The alternative is to feed amplifier output into the "HIGH LEVEL IN" inputs in parallel with the cables that are connected to Strada 2 - again, the music being fed to Strada 2 is full range.)

So then the question is whether 2W from DAVE into this system is enough for a "desktop" system? The TR-3d subwoofer has a power amp to drive the bass driver, so DAVE doesn't seem to have to supply much power in the bass, since Strada 2 rolls off at 68Hz.

I was deeply impressed by voices on TR-3d + Strada 2 in a shop demo and I'm wondering if I can set this up as a purist DAVE desktop system...

Now playing: Leif Vollebekk - Tallahassee


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## doraymon

Jawed said:


> I'm wondering if I can set this up as a purist DAVE desktop system...


I thought exactly the same but not sure the thing can run properly without an amp...
I was also thinking of KEF LS50 with one of the Chord amps...


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## minibox

ecwl said:


> I totally agree. I would totally upgrade my car audio system with a Chord DAC product. I do worry some car systems run on class D amps though.


I would as well but I would want dsp and time alignment capabilities for the inherently hostile acoustic environment in a car.


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## Raghu6446

Thanks ecwl  
Iam so happy with dave alone and with blu2 coming my quest for buying any headphones or audio gear is complete as to how can anything else add to satisfy quest for audio nirvana .


----------



## miketlse

etnt said:


> If only chord have something for in car use


I think there were a handful of posts in the Mojo thread, by owners who connected their Mojos into their car systems. Even phone>Mojo>cable into the line-in of the car stereo, was said to improve the sound, so just think what a proper chord car stereo could do.


----------



## rgs9200m

Any opinions on DAVE's HF Filter toggle? I went back and forth many times and find I like it off. The highs were vaguely more distorted and something just bothered me. 
It's kind of like the Utopia headphone, where the highs are extended but so natural and clean they are not fatiguing or shrill or painful.


----------



## OK-Guy

OK-Guy said:


> *North West Audio Show 2018*
> 
> 
> *Venue: De Vere Cranage Estate, Byley Lane, Holmes Chapel, Cheshire CW4 8EW*
> ...









*Chord Blu, Dave and the new Etude power-amplifier with KEF Ref.1 Loudspeakers*​


----------



## ubs28 (Jun 23, 2018)

I'm super new to Roon. But why has my Chord Dave been recognised by Roon as a Chord Qutest? xD


----------



## doraymon

Jawed said:


> Is anyone running DAVE into Anthony Gallo Strada 2 with TR-3d?
> 
> I'm thinking that RCA out on DAVE can go direct to Strada 2 and XLR out can go to the line-in inputs on the TR-3d. DAVE would be driving the Strada 2 "full range" in this setup with the crossover on the TR-3d only affecting the bass integration by manipulating the subwoofer's "crossover frequency" and level.
> 
> ...


None?
The more I read about these Strada 2the more they look like a very good match for Dave.
Despite their 90dB sensitivity it looks like the manufacturer suggests 10W amplification power, so a bit far from Dave.


----------



## Jawed

doraymon said:


> None?
> The more I read about these Strada 2the more they look like a very good match for Dave.
> Despite their 90dB sensitivity it looks like the manufacturer suggests 10W amplification power, so a bit far from Dave.


Sometime later this summer I plan to borrow them and the subwoofer for a week. I also plan to get a set of cables made specifically for DAVE. I will then compare with an integrated amp I still have from the 1980s (45W per channel) to see what extra power brings to the party.

90dB efficiency at 1W at a desk with 1m maximum listening distance should be quite loud - it's really a matter of control. If I decide I need more power maybe I'll be lucky and Chord will release a power pulse array amplifier soon that's beefier than TT2 with DAVE's noise shaper and 20 element array...


----------



## GryphonGuy

ubs28 said:


> I'm super new to Roon. But why has my Chord Dave been recognised by Roon as a Chord Qutest? xD



Same thing happened to me. I have an UltraRendu between the server and DAVE. And you have to "fix" it otherwise no DSD playback (or that is what my symptom was).

This is how I fixed it.

From the 3-bar menu on top left, Go to Settings:

Select Audio from the left hand panel

Scroll down to the Network subsection (on the right) to roon ready. Click the cogged gear wheels to the right of your device, in my case it was Sonore ultraRendu. Select Device Setup and under the Audio Device heading, where it has Chord Cutest, click on the "Not your device?" coloured wording and select the "Identify this device" wording. Now mine actually said it was a Chord Electronics Ltd Dave but I chose to re-identify it anyway and it worked.


----------



## zimou13 (Jun 25, 2018)

Aries has Auralic’s take on a full MQA renderer. It not licensed nor using anything MQA official. Probably pisses Bob off to no end. Plex Kodi Lucky Patcher


----------



## dakabali (Jun 24, 2018)

Dear all

as a "newcomer" (sorry for my bad English) I've been trying to read all the 765 pages of this forum  but I haven't found a configuration like mine here (yet) and I thought I share my experience with my signal chain (SOtM sMS-200ultra /masterclock from REF10/ --> SOtM tXUSBultra /masterclock from REF10/ --> 2x Mutec MC3+ USB /masterclock from REF10/ --> Dave --> microZOTL 2 preamp --> Focal Utopia)

I've read many reports regarding how much better Dave's USB input was comparing to the BNC/AES input. I can confirm that especially regarding the extreme wide bass stage provided by the USB input. Actually I was quiet supprised how well Dave does the job, even better than my "old" Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ with wordclock from one of the MC3's and both MC3's receiving masterclock from a REF10.

However with Dave, I really missed the sharp and precise sound produced by the Mutec reclockers - which happen to have no USB output.  So the question was how to get the best of both the USB and BNC input variants in order to achive the improved bass stage while keeping the chrystal clear edges of the sound?  And the answer is as always: ferrites. As soon as I put 8-10 ferrites on the short BNC cable between the 2nd MC3+ and the Dave (actually almost covering the whole cable with ferrites) some 80% of the bass advantage of Dave's USB input reappeared on the BNC cable while enjoying the benefits of the Mutec reclockers. "Funny" thing that you really need the two MC3+ with masterclock to get an audible positive difference: only one MC3+ or turning off the REF10 made the whole chain equal or even worse than Dave with USB input.

My Blu Mk2 is going to arrive hopefully in 2 weeks, so the test goes on!


----------



## Crgreen

zimou13 said:


> Aries has Auralic’s take on a full MQA renderer. It not licensed nor using anything MQA official. Probably pisses Bob off to no end.



 I Found Auralic’s MQA renderer rather unconvincing and preferred streaming files at Red Book into Dave. I suspect to get the best out of MQA, you need an MQA DAC.


----------



## rgs9200m

I tried some Tidal MQA stuff and didn't like it. Shades of "surround sound" artifice.


----------



## ecwl

dakabali said:


> However with Dave, I really missed the sharp and precise sound produced by the Mutec reclockers - which happen to have no USB output.


According to Rob Watts, and I would say I agree with him on this based on my personal experience, that “sharp and precise” sound that you’re used to is actually radio frequency noise being injected to DACs that you’re used to listening. The problem with other DACs is that their tap lengths are all very short so they cannot accurately compute and generate accurate transients. So yes, that extra RF noise would make the music sound more exciting, but that’s for every song and every note. Whereas with DAVE or live music, vocals that sounds smooth should sound smooth and not “sharp and precise” while exciting transients like guitar plucks or drum strikes should sound dynamic and sharp and precise, more so than what the RF noise can induce in the DACs. The challenge is that most of us are so used to short tap length DACs with DAC chips, we are naturally tuned to this type of distortion. And it takes a long time to rese the ears and mind (unless you go to a a lot of unamplified live concerts) to what’s more accurate and realistic. The good news for you is that when you get Blu2, you’re going to notice that you’re going to get that “sharp and precise” sound even much more than you do now with musical notes which are supposed to be dynamic with striking transients but smooth vocals would continue to sound smooth. It actually took me a long time, like owning DAVE for more than a year and comparing it to Mojo and reading what Rob Watts was saying to finally understood this. It came one day when I was on vacation and I finally went to a live Boston Symphony Orchestra performance and that’s when it finally clicked.


----------



## commtrd

minibox said:


> I would as well but I would want dsp and time alignment capabilities for the inherently hostile acoustic environment in a car.


How awesome would a Chord Audio system for a car be? I have spent 8k on sound and deadening in my truck. However the twin Garrett ball bearing turbos still scream building boost and not much will cover that up. So diesel trucks may not be the best platform for mobile audio anyway. Still an interesting proposition for cars that are near dead silent inside...


----------



## Triode User

ecwl said:


> According to Rob Watts, and I would say I agree with him on this based on my personal experience, that “sharp and precise” sound that you’re used to is actually radio frequency noise being injected to DACs that you’re used to listening. The problem with other DACs is that their tap lengths are all very short so they cannot accurately compute and generate accurate transients. So yes, that extra RF noise would make the music sound more exciting, but that’s for every song and every note. Whereas with DAVE or live music, vocals that sounds smooth should sound smooth and not “sharp and precise” while exciting transients like guitar plucks or drum strikes should sound dynamic and sharp and precise, more so than what the RF noise can induce in the DACs. The challenge is that most of us are so used to short tap length DACs with DAC chips, we are naturally tuned to this type of distortion. And it takes a long time to rese the ears and mind (unless you go to a a lot of unamplified live concerts) to what’s more accurate and realistic. The good news for you is that when you get Blu2, you’re going to notice that you’re going to get that “sharp and precise” sound even much more than you do now with musical notes which are supposed to be dynamic with striking transients but smooth vocals would continue to sound smooth. It actually took me a long time, like owning DAVE for more than a year and comparing it to Mojo and reading what Rob Watts was saying to finally understood this. It came one day when I was on vacation and I finally went to a live Boston Symphony Orchestra performance and that’s when it finally clicked.



Yes, I am with you on this and you have hit on one of the great difficulties of discussing the quality of playback on an internet forum. I have become convinced that many of the add on bits of kit, reclockers, etc etc that are being thought to enhance the sound might really just be adding in cr4p which give the illusion of detail and so on. Of course this has come to the fore in the Blu2 thread and where 'sharp and precise' is what you hear with the Blu2 with standard cables but when the RF is filtered out then one realises that the 'sharp and precise' is just false detail and is masking a whole host of real detail, dynamics, bass note shape etc. I am really not sure that Dave benefits from any of these extra things added in the digital chain (apart from Bu2 of course!).


----------



## paulchiu

rgs9200m said:


> I tried some Tidal MQA stuff and didn't like it. Shades of "surround sound" artifice.



junk, artifacts, garbage in - garbage out, MQA Inc. simply came up with another lossy scheme with a better recovery end.  Not sure what all the excitement is,  I heard and tried it.
Unless the likes of Apple and Spotify get on the MQA train and everything new are recorded/delivered with the format, no reason to upgrade any of my DACs or buy more gear.  The DAVE sounds perfect as is.

paul


----------



## GryphonGuy

dakabali said:


> Dear all
> 
> as a "newcomer" (sorry for my bad English) I've been trying to read all the 765 pages of this forum  but I haven't found a configuration like mine here (yet) and I thought I share my experience with my signal chain (SOtM sMS-200ultra /masterclock from REF10/ --> SOtM tXUSBultra /masterclock from REF10/ --> 2x Mutec MC3+ USB /masterclock from REF10/ --> Dave --> microZOTL 2 preamp --> Focal Utopia)
> 
> ...



As an experiment, run your Focal Utopia headphones direct from dave by disconnecting your microZOTL 2 preamp. You may be pleased with the result. Then again YMMV.

Regards
GG


----------



## rgs9200m

Thanks Paul.


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## dakabali

Triode User said:


> ...you have hit on one of the great difficulties of discussing the quality of playback on an internet forum



Dear @ecwl and @Triode User, thanks for your feedback. I absolutely agree on the difficulty of describing and discussing sound quality. It might also be true that all the hifi gadgets I try to improve the sound with - including reclockers, grounding boxes, LPSUs etc. - could be ignored in an "ideal world" where a single DAC is able to flawlessly reproduce all attributes of an analogue signal based on its digital representation. My statement is - sorry @Rob Watts - that Dave alone is not reaching this level of refinement and "preprocessing" with high quality reclockers and "postprocessing" with a high quality preamp may help. However, to be the honest Dave is very very close and all these possible refinements in my system are marginal. You both mention the Blu Mk2 which I don't have (yet) and I think it could be something which makes all these pre- and post-processing unnecessary and/or obsolete.


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## dakabali (Jun 25, 2018)

GryphonGuy said:


> As an experiment, run your Focal Utopia headphones direct from dave by disconnecting your microZOTL 2 preamp. You may be pleased with the result. Then again YMMV.
> 
> Regards
> GG


Excellent idea. I've been playing with Dave just for 2 weeks and have tried some tests including comparing the headphone output of Dave vs the microZOTL 2. And this was the very first time I haven't recognized any major difference between an integrated DAC/headphone amp - and my modded microZOTL 2 (improved capacitors, LPSU etc). If I had to choose I would still take the  microZOTL 2 but just because I feel (hear?) that it somehow helps smoothen the edges of the high tones. Or maybe just because I like tube preamps?  Anyway, all the small advantages might disappear with the Blu Mk2 and I can imagine that I would land at a pure BluDAVE setup at the end of the day..


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## Christer (Jun 25, 2018)

ecwl said:


> According to Rob Watts, and I would say I agree with him on this based on my personal experience, that “sharp and precise” sound that you’re used to is actually radio frequency noise being injected to DACs that you’re used to listening. The problem with other DACs is that their tap lengths are all very short so they cannot accurately compute and generate accurate transients. So yes, that extra RF noise would make the music sound more exciting, but that’s for every song and every note. Whereas with DAVE or live music, vocals that sounds smooth should sound smooth and not “sharp and precise” while exciting transients like guitar plucks or drum strikes should sound dynamic and sharp and precise, more so than what the RF noise can induce in the DACs. The challenge is that most of us are so used to short tap length DACs with DAC chips, we are naturally tuned to this type of distortion. And it takes a long time to rese the ears and mind (unless you go to a a lot of unamplified live concerts) to what’s more accurate and realistic. The good news for you is that when you get Blu2, you’re going to notice that you’re going to get that “sharp and precise” sound even much more than you do now with musical notes which are supposed to be dynamic with striking transients but smooth vocals would continue to sound smooth. It actually took me a long time, like owning DAVE for more than a year and comparing it to Mojo and reading what Rob Watts was saying to finally understood this. It came one day when I was on vacation and I finally went to a live Boston Symphony Orchestra performance and that’s when it finally clicked.



Good to hear that what made you realize things was listening to live acoustic music.
The one and ONLY real reference point  in HIFI.
You mention a common mistake made by many here, they are NOT TUNED TO THE REAL REFERENCE POINT!
DAVE was the first time I heard digital sound via headphones  reasonably convincingly close to how real acoustic instruments actually sound live.
DAVE /BLU2 may very well be the closest there is to live acoustic instruments so far in digital reproduction?

But what I still find most surprising every time I return home to my LP based home system is that at least in my system it can sometimes still beat the digital alternative I am willing to pay for which  currently is a Qutest.
My mid 70s LP system still reproduces  for example a solo violin more lifelike and  more realistically in the  absolutely vital aspects ,tonality and timbre   than my Qutest does.
At least with the digital recordings I have for comparison.
Good as it is at its price range, there is both via pcm and DSD a sense of colouration and something "synthetic" added even with my Qutest. Violins seem to be the most difficult to reproduce digitally of all acoustic instruments IMHO.
As an example,I have heard Sibelius' Violin Concerto live twice this winter /spring but the closest to how both Janine Jansen's and Baiba Skride's violins sounded from my premium stalls seats is neither via my DSD/SACD player nor with hi res pcm via  Qutest, but very surprisingly indeed, via a mid 70s DGG LP.
I am sorry to have to say so,but from DGG of all labels,I hear a timbrally and tonally sweet and very accurate  violin sound that in those vital aspects still beats my digital options,at least.
Of course the LP sounds more congested at climaxes than either of the digital versions.
But all the way up to forte I also hear a more coherent depth and sense of being recorded in a live hall  via  the LP.
And during the  many rather low level solo violin sections there is simply no contest. LP wins clearly.

Hi res PCM via a  Chandos download for all its first impression impressive detail, seems to skew the tone towards "electric violin" at times and DSD has a tendency to muffle it into  sounding softer than the real thing. Pleasing at times but not quite  the way it sounds live.
This should not be the case going by traditional measurements. Everybody knows LP measures much worse than  modern digital.
But it is what I hear through my maybe not in all respects absolutely SOTA speakers and I can't but wonder why?

I have only heard DAVE and BLU 2 via headphones so far but I am not going to risk 20k for that combo maybe only to find out that it still won't reproduce a violin as close to how I am used to hear one live as  my best LPs can?
Maybe it does win?
But with roughly ten shelf metres of often surprisingly well recorded LPs from the golden 60s and 70s, I am not willing to be in the super expensive  digital front line.
All this said while still hoping there will be an affordable little M'scaler soon which may close the elusive timbre gap I still hear .
Cheers and enjoy your DAVE Christer


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## delirium

Hi! So i have added sotm sms 200 ultra to my dave....and also added isotek genesis one!! Belive me it makes a difference..more calm sound..more analog..so this thing with a laptop? I dont understand...ps: pure power helps a lot to!!! It's also powered by an lps..waiting for y cable to hook up iso regen also..cheers..


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## Chartreuse

I've had my DAVE for a few weeks now and have a couple of new owner questions. Apologies if these have been covered -- with 800 pages I'm sure these have variously come up before, but I didn't have any luck in searching the thread. 

1. PCM Plus setting vs. DCM setting. What's the deal? 95% of my listening is through Spotify, with a splash of lossless through JRiver. A/Bing both modes sounds the same. Is there an accepted "optimal"? I've been on PCM for a while now and love it, but don't know / can't hear the difference.
2. I leave mine on 24/7. I use display mode 4 so the screen turns off. Display mode 3 is prettier. Is there a potential burn in issue if I use a mode without the screensaver? 
3. Given I'm using stock cables, Spotify HQ, and relatively older LCD-2 v2.2s, where would you go first on the upgrade path? I'd like to get a set of LCD-4z cans, so that's in the works, but what can I do on the software or additional hardware side of things to continue to see improvements? I put the stock cable directly into the wall, and then into an old surge protector and didn't notice an audible difference, so I'm assuming the power supply in the DAVE is good enough that improvements in the power cable aren't gonna do me much good, but I'm open to alternative arguments. I'm probably most interested in what software / source tweaks have been working; e.g., should I try Tidal? Should I try buying more of my music so I can run it through JRiver and get a bit perfect output (and where do you usually shop)?


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## delirium

1: get sorted on mains power. 2: a good streamer. 3: roon or tidal. 4: you are on your way.


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## AndrewOld (Jun 25, 2018)

1 Dump Spotify. Now. It is hoplessly low res.
2 Get a subscription to a minimum cd quality streaming service like Tidal or Qobuz. A years subscription to Qobuz will give you high res streaming of thousands of albums for about the same money as two inches of stupid audiophile mains cable.
3 If streaming isn’t your thing, then buy loads of cds and rip them losslessly. They are very cheap nowadays.
4 Forget cables and voodoo. Listen to music.  You have bought the best DAC in the world. Feed it with the highest quality music you can, and listen to it through the highest quality headphones and/or speakers you can.


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## delirium

AndrewOld said:


> 1 Dump Qobuz. Now. It is hoplessly low res.
> 2 Get a subscription to a minimum cd quality streaming service like Tidal or Qobuz. A years subscription to Qobuz will give you high res streaming of thousands of albums for about the same money as two inches of stupid audiophile mains cable.
> 3 If streaming isn’t your thing, then buy loads of cds and rip them losslessly. They are very cheap nowadays.
> 4 Forget cables and voodoo. Listen to music.  You have bought the best DAC in the world. Feed it with the highest quality music you can, and listen to it through the highest quality headphones and/or speakers you can.


Hey you!!!! To get ac 2 dc clean is'ent stupid. Stupid.


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## Triode User (Jun 25, 2018)

Text deleted to save confusion.


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## AndrewOld

delirium said:


> Hey you!!!! To get ac 2 dc clean is'ent stupid. Stupid.



You saying Rob Watts doesn’t know how to get a clean dc supply? 

No amount of fancy mains cable will make Spotify sound like Qobuz Sublime +, or any other cd quality or high res source.


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## AndrewOld (Jun 25, 2018)

deletd


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## delirium (Jun 25, 2018)

AndrewOld said:


> You saying Rob Watts doesn’t know how to get a clean dc supply?
> 
> No amount of fancy mains cable will make Spotify sound like Qobuz Sublime +, or any other cd quality or high res source.


I am not talking about mains cable? But the mains itself!!! Get a regenerator for your dave. If you are not living next to a powerplant and you are the only one to live there!!!


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## delirium

But i am living in norway and its pretty bad here so????


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## AndrewOld

delirium said:


> But i am living in norway and its pretty bad here so????



Rob Watts takes his DAVE all over the world, without a regenerator. If a regenerator typically made a DAVE sound better, Rob would tell you and then design one. Spotify is your weakest link by a long way. Fix that first.


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## delirium

AndrewOld said:


> Rob Watts takes his DAVE all over the world, without a regenerator. If a regenerator typically made a DAVE sound better, Rob would tell you and then design one. Spotify is your weakest link by a long way. Fix that first.


Maybe.....but mine sounds better!!! At least get a deticated powerline. And yes Drop Spotify.


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## onlychild

When I switched to a dedicated 20amp AC line (with 8 awg wire) for my DAVE directly feeding Utopia,I immediately heard more low level detail but the most noticeable difference was the removal of harshness in the highs. This makes me believe that noise was making it into the DAVE and causing harshness.  Harshness I didn’t really notice was there till it was gone.

I realized how noisy my AC lines were at my old place when I was listening to music and ran my paper shredder which was plugged into an adjacent wall from the DAVE, and I heard all this noise and static from the shredder bleed through to the headphones.

Now, if you have a fairly new home with good wiring, the jump to a dedicated AC line might not be as big as it was for me since I started with such crappy AC.


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## delirium

Rule nr: 1 in hi-fi     START ALWAYS WITH YOUR MAINS POWER


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## delirium

onlychild said:


> When I switched to a dedicated 20amp AC line (with 8 awg wire) for my DAVE directly feeding Utopia,I immediately heard more low level detail but the most noticeable difference was the removal of harshness in the highs. This makes me believe that noise was making it into the DAVE and causing harshness.  Harshness I didn’t really notice was there till it was gone.
> 
> I realized how noisy my AC lines were at my old place when I was listening to music and ran my paper shredder which was plugged into an adjacent wall from the DAVE, and I heard all this noise and static from the shredder bleed through to the headphones.
> 
> Now, if you have a fairly new home with good wiring, the jump to a dedicated AC line might not be as big as it was for me since I started with such crappy AC.


+1


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## delirium (Jun 25, 2018)

delirium said:


> +1


But you only need 10 amp for dave..


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## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> D*mn I meant Dump Spotify! I’ve fixed my original post, Thanks.
> 
> (If you want to make me feel less stupid, you could delete your post and I’ll delete this one.)



I've deleted my text.
N


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## delirium

Triode User said:


> I've deleted my text.
> N


There is no need to feel stupid here!!! Hehe.


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## Triode User

delirium said:


> But you only need 10 amp for dave..



Depending on your mains voltage you don't even need that as Dave probably draws less than half an amp at UK voltages. And dedicated mains wiring isn't really dedicated or separated because it is all linked together at the consumer unit.


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## delirium

Triode User said:


> Depending on your mains voltage you don't even need that as Dave probably draws less than half an amp at UK voltages. And dedicated mains wiring isn't really dedicated or separated because it is all linked together at the consumer unit.


Exactly...! Thats why regenerate is so important!


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## Chartreuse

Alright. I got a trial for Tidal HQ. Will probably keep spotify too though, because in 2 hours I've already tried to listen to several albums Tidal doesn't have available.

As far as AC goes -- I'm in a condo building. I replaced the receptacles, but that's about as good as it's gonna get. I generally agree that for $12k I better be getting a power supply that can convert AC to clean DC without loads of other equipment.

LCD-4Zs next!


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## delirium

Chartreuse said:


> Alright. I got a trial for Tidal HQ. Will probably keep spotify too though, because in 2 hours I've already tried to listen to several albums Tidal doesn't have available.
> 
> As far as AC goes -- I'm in a condo building. I replaced the receptacles, but that's about as good as it's gonna get. I generally agree that for $12k I better be getting a power supply that can convert AC to clean DC without loads of other equipment.
> 
> LCD-4Zs next!


Or focal utopia?


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## Chartreuse

delirium said:


> Or focal utopia?



Really wish I could audition one. I've been really happy with my LCDs so figured I'd just go with the best version of those. I just haven't read enough comparative notes between the LCD-4/LCD-4z/Utopia, particularly out of the DAVE, to come to a different conclusion.


----------



## jlbrach

Chartreuse said:


> I've had my DAVE for a few weeks now and have a couple of new owner questions. Apologies if these have been covered -- with 800 pages I'm sure these have variously come up before, but I didn't have any luck in searching the thread.
> 
> 1. PCM Plus setting vs. DCM setting. What's the deal? 95% of my listening is through Spotify, with a splash of lossless through JRiver. A/Bing both modes sounds the same. Is there an accepted "optimal"? I've been on PCM for a while now and love it, but don't know / can't hear the difference.
> 2. I leave mine on 24/7. I use display mode 4 so the screen turns off. Display mode 3 is prettier. Is there a potential burn in issue if I use a mode without the screensaver?
> 3. Given I'm using stock cables, Spotify HQ, and relatively older LCD-2 v2.2s, where would you go first on the upgrade path? I'd like to get a set of LCD-4z cans, so that's in the works, but what can I do on the software or additional hardware side of things to continue to see improvements? I put the stock cable directly into the wall, and then into an old surge protector and didn't notice an audible difference, so I'm assuming the power supply in the DAVE is good enough that improvements in the power cable aren't gonna do me much good, but I'm open to alternative arguments. I'm probably most interested in what software / source tweaks have been working; e.g., should I try Tidal? Should I try buying more of my music so I can run it through JRiver and get a bit perfect output (and where do you usually shop)?



obviously it is your choice but i must admit I find the thought of spending 20K plus on dave/blu2 and then listening to spotify MP3 through it....i am not trying to be judgmental but somehow it seems counter intuitive to spend so much money on hardware and then not pursue the best sounding sources....god bless and enjoy but i do not get it


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## delirium

Chartreuse said:


> Really wish I could audition one. I've been really happy with my LCDs so figured I'd just go with the best version of those. I just haven't read enough comparative notes between the LCD-4/LCD-4z/Utopia, particularly out of the DAVE, to come to a different conclusion.


You should try utopia on dave to.


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## Chartreuse

jlbrach said:


> obviously it is your choice but i must admit I find the thought of spending 20K plus on dave/blu2 and then listening to spotify MP3 through it....i am not trying to be judgmental but somehow it seems counter intuitive to spend so much money on hardware and then not pursue the best sounding sources....god bless and enjoy but i do not get it




Well, I don't have a Blu2 for one thing, just the DAVE. And yes, it outguns everything else I have, but I'm not going to buy a whole end-game rig at once... it's with the intent of following an upgrade path, which is what I'm after with my post. I've got Tidal Hifi running now (and as I mentioned I'm using JRiver with lossless too), but Spotify does have some features I'm not quite willing to give up (mostly around discovery) so it's still going to be in the stable. 

What other sources are you talking about specifically? I don't know much about getting the most out of my computer audio so I'm open to suggestions.


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## audio_1 (Jun 25, 2018)

The big problem with compressed audio formats is transient timing. Dave and especially Dave and Blu2 when partnered with fast amplification, loudspeakers with a good impulse response, fast phase coherent and low inductance cables and at least CD quality software can time correctly. This gets the foot tapping and one becomes emotionally involved with the music. Unfortunately if you have never heard this you will not realise what is missing or what is possible. I have only heard one other DAC that can do this but the Chord DACs are world class at this due to Rob's long reconstruction filters and transient timing. This was obviously a PCM DAC as DSD DACs can't do this in my experience. It was also no where near the Dave and Blu2 in overall performance. Note also that analog or pulse array! amplification is necessary. Conventional class D amplifiers don't switch fast enough.

In my opinion earth boxes and additional earth cables are not required if a well designed power distribution system is used. Power cords with 4 mm2 earth cables are required, connected in a star configuration.

I stream Qobuz Hi-Fi and listen to CDs on my Dave and Blu2 connected with Oyaide digital cables with Wurth ferrites as per Rob's recommendations.


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## Chartreuse

audio_1 said:


> The big problem with compressed audio formats is transient timing. Dave and especially Dave and Blu2 when partnered with fast amplification, loudspeakers with a good impulse response, fast phase coherent and low inductance cables and at least CD quality software can time correctly. This gets the foot tapping and one becomes emotionally involved with the music. Unfortunately if you have never heard this you will not realise what is missing or what is possible. I have only heard one other DAC that can do this but the Chord DACs are world class at this due to Rob's long reconstruction filters and transient timing. This was obviously a PCM DAC as DSD DACs can't do this in my experience. It was also no where near the Dave and Blu2 in overall performance. Note also that analog or pulse array! amplification is necessary. Conventional class D amplifiers don't switch fast enough.
> 
> In my opinion earth boxes and additional earth cables are not required if a well designed power distribution system is used. Power cords with 4 mm2 earth cables are required, connected in a star configuration.
> 
> I stream Qobuz Hi-Fi and listen to CDs on my Dave and Blu2 connected with Oyaide digital cables with Wurth ferrites as per Rob's recommendations.




So for dumb question 2, does it matter if I'm on the DSD plus or PCM setting on my DAVE? Qobuz Hifi isn't available in the US it looks like, so I'm using Tidal Hifi for now. May buy some tracks of HDTracks to see what I'm missing.


----------



## delirium

Chartreuse said:


> So for dumb question 2, does it matter if I'm on the DSD plus or PCM setting on my DAVE? Qobuz Hifi isn't available in the US it looks like, so I'm using Tidal Hifi for now. May buy some tracks of HDTracks to see what I'm missing.


Hey! Are you sure of that you have tidal lossless? If not?


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## Chartreuse

delirium said:


> Hey! Are you sure of that you have tidal lossless? If not?



Yep, says Lossless. And I've got it "exclusive" so it goes into the DAVE at 44.1.


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## audio_1

Chartreuse said:


> So for dumb question 2, does it matter if I'm on the DSD plus or PCM setting on my DAVE? Qobuz Hifi isn't available in the US it looks like, so I'm using Tidal Hifi for now. May buy some tracks of HDTracks to see what I'm missing.



I don't think you are missing much, 44.1 kHz flac on the Dave and the Dave & Blu 2 is brilliant if the rest of the system doesn't kill it.
If using Dave on its own, select the appropriate mode for the source PCM or DSD. When inputting DSD to Blu 2 use PCM mode on Dave. The most important thing is to do no sample rate conversion or MQA decoding. Try and play the recording in its originally recorded sample rate. I have no experience of Dave or Blu 2 with DSD as DSD is inherently flawed and doesn't time in my opinion. See Rob's posts about DSD.


----------



## Crgreen

audio_1 said:


> I don't think you are missing much, 44.1 kHz flac on the Dave and the Dave & Blu 2 is brilliant if the rest of the system doesn't kill it.
> If using Dave on its own, select the appropriate mode for the source PCM or DSD. When inputting DSD to Blu 2 use PCM mode on Dave. The most important thing is to do no sample rate conversion or MQA decoding. Try and play the recording in its originally recorded sample rate. I have no experience of Dave or Blu 2 with DSD as DSD is inherently flawed and doesn't time in my opinion. See Rob's posts about DSD.



As far as I’m aware, nobody streams DSD as the files would just be too large. And my experience with Tidal is that anything above 48/24 is likely to be MQA encoded, and unless you’ve got an MQA enabled DAC, which the Blu 2 and Dave are not, it’s probabably best to stick with 44/16 as the upper limit, even with music recorded natively in hi-res, and leave MQA alone. Accessing these settings differs between streamers and like devices and it can take some playing about to get the settings right.


----------



## Triode User

Crgreen said:


> As far as I’m aware, nobody streams DSD as the files would just be too large. And my experience with Tidal is that anything above 48/24 is likely to be MQA encoded, and unless you’ve got an MQA enabled DAC, which the Blu 2 and Dave are not, it’s probabably best to stick with 44/16 as the upper limit, even with music recorded natively in hi-res, and leave MQA alone. Accessing these settings differs between streamers and like devices and it can take some playing about to get the settings right.



Wise words here. 

Especially the  “leave MQA alone” part. Rob has explained very well that it is a flawed system and I must say I am far happier since I left Tidal with its MQA and went with Qobuz instead. 

I went to visit Crgreen recently and he has a very sensitive ear and takes his music and HiFi very seriously. I respect his opinion.


----------



## Crgreen

Triode User said:


> Wise words here.
> 
> Especially the  “leave MQA alone” part. Rob has explained very well that it is a flawed system and I must say I am far happier since I left Tidal with its MQA and went with Qobuz instead.
> 
> I went to visit Crgreen recently and he has a very sensitive ear and takes his music and HiFi very seriously. I respect his opinion.



Just to be clear, I'm only saying that MQA through software decoding alone has not impressed me, and doesn't sound quite right. I've not had a chance to evaluate it through an MQA enabled DAC where I imagine it would sound considerably better. How much better I'm unable to say. For the time being, MQA will remain an issue if you're after hi-res streaming over the Internet. There are other service providers who offer hi-res without MQA but I don't think their databases are as extensive as Tidal. How much that matters depends on what you listen to and how often you use the service. Then again, I keep hearing that Tidal is in financial difficulties and won't last, and that all we'll be left with is Spotify and iTunes. Maybe you shouldn't cancel that Spotify account just yet, particularly since I hear that Spotify will be moving to Red Book at some point, in which case it might be the preferred online streamer, with many more albums than Tidal.

Yes, Nick did visit me to try out his BNC cables between my Blu 2 and Dave. I was very impressed with what they did and would recommend them to anyone who feels they'd like to move beyond the stock BNC cables.


----------



## ecwl

Chartreuse said:


> So for dumb question 2, does it matter if I'm on the DSD plus or PCM setting on my DAVE? Qobuz Hifi isn't available in the US it looks like, so I'm using Tidal Hifi for now. May buy some tracks of HDTracks to see what I'm missing.


When playing PCM files, PCM+ mode in DAVE uses 164,000 taps while DSD mode uses 88,000 taps. The difference is audible but it depends on how sensitive/trained your ears are to the benefits of tap length since it's not like going from Mojo/Hugo of 28,000 & 16fs to DAVE 164,000 taps & 256fs. When playing DSD files, PCM+ mode decimates the signal back to ?354/705kHz 24-bit first whereas I think DSD+ mode keeps signal at 2.8MHz ?16-bit before applying filters. Of course, the newer Chord products (Hugo 2, Hugo 2 TT, Qutest and Blu2) all decimates DSD to 705kHz 24-bit with an improved filter now. I would say DSD files sounds better using the new (Blu2) decimation followed by the DSD+ mode followed by the PCM+ mode on DAVE. But I rarely listen to DSD files.


----------



## delirium

delirium said:


> Hi! So i have added sotm sms 200 ultra to my dave....and also added isotek genesis one!! Belive me it makes a difference..more calm sound..more analog..so this thing with a laptop? I dont understand...ps: pure power helps a lot to!!! It's also powered by an lps..waiting for y cable to hook up iso regen also..cheers..


Well...that was a bad move?? Lps-1 doesent have enuff power..better without iso regen at this point....?


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## delirium

Hi everybody!! 
to those who suggest that a laptop is 
enough??? Music is energy..so 
therefore....everything counts...the clock before the dac is 
completely necessary. And better 
quality....better sound..i dont care what Rob Watts says??? Sorry...........


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## musickid (Jul 1, 2018)

Now cable burn in machines are at work.


----------



## jonstatt

So I spent a second evening listening to my Blu2/DAVE/Utopia set-up with @Triode User 's WAVE cables and I have to say I am very impressed. If we roll back a few months I was a cable sceptic. In fact for some purposes I still am. When companies like Audioquest describe a digital interconnect as having a defined bass or open treble my blood boils. That being said, I learned something new when it came to Blu2 and DAVE, that there are challenges of RF/EMI between mains powered interconnecting devices, and that interference becomes audible in the downstream analogue electronics.

Now many of us with a Blu2 have a tendency to be perfectionist and want to get that last few percent of sound improvement. And a good fair number of us have played with different cables. I went from the stock cable to Alvin's cables (Canare cable with Neutrik connectors) to Audioquest Carbon and of course a play with ferrites. I refused to do a total cable ferrite solution due to the ugliness of it all but @Rob Watts had mentioned noticeable improvement with 1-2 at the DAVE end and my experience agrees. For whatever reason, the Audioquest Carbon cables were far better than the stock and Canare ones at reducing the brightness added by the RF/EMI from Blu2, particularly with the ferrites. But there was still what I call "fizz" audible particularly on vocals. I realize fizz is an odd choice of words, but it is describing something that sounds modulating and changing as the inflection of the voice changes as opposed to just an aggressive harshness in the treble.

I was tempted by the original Clearer Audio group buy deal but realized it would be an expensive spend that would probably result in an ugly ferrite solution still like @etnt showed (no offense etnt!). So when @Triode User showed his "integrated" ferrite cable solution I was quick to reach out to him to see if would be setting up shop to make these for others.

So as I showed a couple of days ago in this thread I went for the naked version of the cable where you can see the ferrite shape but because the are a part of the cable they are not bulky and ugly and simply look like an interesting and special cable design. As I mentioned then, I was surprised by how heavy and substantial they were, but then I had never applied 20 ferrites to a cable before. You have to be a bit careful not to over bend these but the have enough flexibility to be used in most situations. Nick recommends a 1m length so that there are enough ferrites integrated along the length of the cable.

To put it simply, I believe I am cured! By that I mean that I can no longer hear any fizziness to vocals and my need for cable tinkering is over. A fairly recent album I have been listening to is Hailey Tuck's jazz album Junk. The issue with vocals was very clear from track 1 with my previous cables but totally absent with the WAVE cable. For me this was a subtle but annoying issue that once I tuned into, couldn't tune it out. Its absence was a great relief. I then shifted to playing a CD of Melody Gardot's Live in Europe album and simulcasting a FLAC rip of it using my Aries G2 streamer. This album is a great way of showing off what Blu 2 can do as the depth of the stage dramatically increases with the M Scaler technology. I struggled to hear a difference between USB and CD. I would probably still give the slightest edge to the CD but I think this is due to an issue with Blu 2's USB handling vs CD and absolute parity may not be possible. But without A/B comparing it I don't believe anyone would ever notice. It is worth noting that the Aries G2 has galvanic isolation on its USB output.

I will do more USB vs CD tests, but overall the WAVE High Fidelity Storm cables have allowed me to get to a point where I stop analyzing the music and just focus on "listening" to it


----------



## TheAttorney (Jul 6, 2018)

For those turned off by the multi-ferrite idea, there's a new kid in town to delight and confuse you. In fact there's several variants being tried out by our friends at CA, but the one that currently has my attention is "JSSG 360", an extension of John Swenson's signal gounding idea, where both ends of the cable's ground sheaths/wires are connected to each other to form a loop - and not connected in any way to the end plugs.

What I like about a variant of the JSSG 360 variant is that it is fully reversible, and no specialist tools are required, and the original cable is left completely unharmed (unlike ferrites which can leave kinks/marks in the cable).
I've tried this myself on a Supra CAT8, with an incremental but worthwhile SQ improvement over my 20+ ferrites, and a huge increase in elegance and usability (those clunky ferrites are tolerable if you leave your cables alone, but are a right PITA if you want to move things around and get caught up in cable spaghetti at the back of the hifi rack).

One good result in one situation isn't conclusive, but my next step is to try this on my USB cable to DAVE, and also on my DAVE grounding cable.

You can get lots of details and tips at CA, but a summary of what I did:
1. Start with a fully terminated 1m CAT8.
2. Pull over some tinned copper braiding (slightly < 1m that stops just short of the plugs, use scissors or wire cutter to trim to size).
3. Wind some Gas PTFE tape to insulate above braiding, leaving about 1cm copper braiding exposed at both ends.
4. Pull over another length of copper braiding, so that the two sets of braiding are touching each other at both ends.
5. "Seal" both ends with a bit of electricians insulating tape. Job done.

All sorts of ways to make it more professional looking, but this way requires no specialist tools or skills.


----------



## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> For those turned off by the multi-ferrite idea, there's a new kid in town to delight and confuse you. In fact there's several variants being tried out by our friends at CA, but the one that currently has my attention is "JSSG 360", an extension of John Swenson's signal gounding idea, where both ends of the cable's ground sheaths/wires are connected to each other to form a loop - and not connected in any way to the end plugs.
> 
> What I like about a variant of the JSSG 360 variant is that it is fully reversible, and no specialist tools are required, and the original cable is left completely unharmed (unlike ferrites which can leave kinks/marks in the cable).
> I've tried this myself on a Supra CAT8, with an incremental but worthwhile SQ improvement over my 20+ ferrites, and a huge increase in elegance and usability (those clunky ferrites are tolerable if you leave your cables alone, but are a right PITA if you want to move things around and get caught up in cable spaghetti at the back of the hifi rack).
> ...



Just to be clear, am I right in thinking that this suggestion initially is for an ethernet / LAN streaming cable?


----------



## TheAttorney (Jul 6, 2018)

From memory, the original JSSG idea was for any digital cable or DC power cable.  Or really any cable that could benefit from improved screening/grounding. Usually, ready-made cables have the screening connected at both plugs or only on one plug. The JSSG idea was that the screening should be disconnected from both plugs, with an external loop wire connected to the cable's own screening wire, but this meant cutting into a ready-made cable, or a full DIY job. Later variants allowed for the addition of completely independant screening that didn't touch any part of the cable's internal screening.

I chose ethernet as my first test, partly becuase it was more convenient to do so, and partly because I had previously found that ferrites on ethernet made a bigger impact than ferrites on USB - in my particular circumstance.


----------



## Amberlamps (Jul 8, 2018)

musickid said:


> Now cable burn in machines are at work.



Do not.......with burn in machines.

This post was brought to you today by the words.

Myth, Useless and Haha

And the number 

8008135

< does not do myths, only fairytales.


----------



## Jozurr

Do you guys think there is an improvement on the DAVE with having a USB out from a microrendu or adding an ISO regen instead of a direct USB out from the imac?


----------



## zimzim2001

Jozurr said:


> Do you guys think there is an improvement on the DAVE with having a USB out from a microrendu or adding an ISO regen instead of a direct USB out from the imac?



Add the ISO Regen out from the Microrendu.  I have one with LPS 1.2 out from an Aries into Blu II and the results are spectacular.


----------



## simorag

Jozurr said:


> Do you guys think there is an improvement on the DAVE with having a USB out from a microrendu or adding an ISO regen instead of a direct USB out from the imac?



I have used the ISO REGEN + LPS-1 with my previous music server (a Windows PC) and now with the ZENith in combination with the DAVE. To me, it improves noticeably compared to direct USB connection in both cases, in terms of: better bass control, more stable and focused imaging, richer harmonics, better depth.

I tried several times, especially after upgrading to the ZENith, to simplify my chain by removing the ISO REGEN, but I miss it just few seconds after I unplug it.


----------



## TheAttorney

With my battery-powered W10 laptop as source, I've gained improvements with mR-only and with IR-only, and bigger improvements with both mR and IR together. And the improvements grow with better power supplies to these units.
If I had to choose only one, it would be the mR (or rather its successor the UltraRendu or the SOtM rival). This gave the biggest single SQ boost, at the expense of more complication with networking (e.g.. best to bypass the standard switch/router, or replace it with an audiophile tweaked version).  

When I eventually get to try the newest OCXO-clocked super servers (e.g. Innuous Statement or TLS), I'll know if I can drop these little boxes, as, like simorag, I'd rather have a simple one-box solution.

As as been stated before, all the above goes against DAVE's designer's view on this topic, but I and several others stand by what we hear.


----------



## delirium

Jozurr said:


> Do you guys think there is an improvement on the DAVE with having a USB out from a microrendu or adding an ISO regen instead of a direct USB out from the imac?


absolutely


----------



## delirium

TheAttorney said:


> With my battery-powered W10 laptop as source, I've gained improvements with mR-only and with IR-only, and bigger improvements with both mR and IR together. And the improvements grow with better power supplies to these units.
> If I had to choose only one, it would be the mR (or rather its successor the UltraRendu or the SOtM rival). This gave the biggest single SQ boost, at the expense of more complication with networking (e.g.. best to bypass the standard switch/router, or replace it with an audiophile tweaked version).
> 
> When I eventually get to try the newest OCXO-clocked super servers (e.g. Innuous Statement or TLS), I'll know if I can drop these little boxes, as, like simorag, I'd rather have a simple one-box solution.
> ...


+1


----------



## Jiffi32

Jozurr said:


> Do you guys think there is an improvement on the DAVE with having a USB out from a microrendu or adding an ISO regen instead of a direct USB out from the imac?


Big improvement over usb straight from mac/pc definitely, I've got a microrendu going spare if you wanted a used one, send me a pm if you're interested


----------



## elviscaprice (Jul 10, 2018)

I found the IR a detriment to SQ from my DIY sCLK-EX server.  You don't need fixers or endpoints if you get the server power/clocking correct to initiate the stream direct to DAVE.  Keep it simple.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Jozurr said:


> Do you guys think there is an improvement on the DAVE with having a USB out from a microrendu or adding an ISO regen instead of a direct USB out from the imac?



I think the USB implementation of the DAVE is simply out of this world. I've tried "other" options, but just keep coming back to my Audioquest Coffee USB cable straight from my iMac into my DAVE. The less in the single path = less colouration.


----------



## rgs9200m

After some experiments, I like an Audioquest Jitterbug + Audioquest Diamond USB cable for the best, most "grounded" sound without any other USB filters.


----------



## xxx1313

MacedonianHero said:


> I think the USB implementation of the DAVE is simply out of this world. I've tried "other" options, but just keep coming back to my Audioquest Coffee USB cable straight from my iMac into my DAVE. The less in the single path = less colouration.



I agree that the USB implementation is very good but there are other better USB cables, imo. I am astonished by the sound quality of Sablon Audio USB cables. Mark has a great return policy. I would not have bought it without that (you never know, how things sound in your audio chain before trying!). Longer signal paths can also be excellent, with the right elements in between.


----------



## elviscaprice

The best USB cable is no USB cable.  Try the USPCB adapter for best in neutral sounding and it's only $35.   Also now made with micro for the Hugo 2.
https://uptoneaudio.com/products/uspcb-a-b-adapter


----------



## ubs28 (Jul 12, 2018)

Jozurr said:


> Do you guys think there is an improvement on the DAVE with having a USB out from a microrendu or adding an ISO regen instead of a direct USB out from the imac?



I use a cheap ass audioquest device (forgot the name) and it makes the DAVE sound much better. USB connection is really crap.

Hence why something like DAVE + PolyForDave (with Mscaler) + Roon is something that I am very interested in.

I'm quite suprised Chord doesn't have this already for the Chord Dave considering how big streaming is in Hifi nowadays.


----------



## Triode User

ubs28 said:


> I use a cheap ass audioquest device (forgot the name) and it makes the DAVE sound much better. USB connection is really crap.
> 
> Hence why something like DAVE + PolyForDave (with Mscaler) + Roon is something that I am very interested in.
> 
> I'm quite suprised Chord doesn't have this already for the Chord Dave considering how big streaming is in Hifi nowadays.



Do you mean the jitterbug? I got one of these this week to see what the fuss is about. I only got it last night so have tried listening for an hour or two. So far my jury is out on this one. I was using it into the usb on Blu2 which obviously then feeds into Dave. The usb is supplied by a Zenith SE. I was really struggling to find any difference with the jitterbug but if anything I marginally prefered it without and so ended the evening taking it out. People swear by these so I am not going to give up and will do more extended listening over the next few days.


----------



## ecwl

Triode User said:


> I was really struggling to find any difference with the jitterbug but if anything I marginally prefered it without and so ended the evening taking it out.


If you can’t hear much difference with Jitterbug, it usually means your source setup (aka. zenith SE in this case) is excellent.


----------



## ubs28 (Jul 13, 2018)

Triode User said:


> Do you mean the jitterbug? I got one of these this week to see what the fuss is about. I only got it last night so have tried listening for an hour or two. So far my jury is out on this one. I was using it into the usb on Blu2 which obviously then feeds into Dave. The usb is supplied by a Zenith SE. I was really struggling to find any difference with the jitterbug but if anything I marginally prefered it without and so ended the evening taking it out. People swear by these so I am not going to give up and will do more extended listening over the next few days.



If you use it on my 5 year old Macbook Pro, you will hear a big difference. xD

But I always knew my Macbook Pro was bad considering how my iPad Pro sounds better with the Mojo, Hugo 1 and Hugo 2.

It looks like the 2018 Macbook Pro’s are out finally. So it will be interesting to see if Apple improved this part as I will be ordering the 6-core version soon.


----------



## Triode User

ecwl said:


> If you can’t hear much difference with Jitterbug, it usually means your source setup (aka. zenith SE in this case) is excellent.



Perhaps. And yet I have heard the very convincing demo of the clear improvement of the Innuos Statement over the SE into a Dave which tends to suggest that the SE is not yet perfect. On the other hand I was struggling to hear a difference between the SE and Statement when played through a Blu2 and my WAVE cables. So the other possibility that I wondered about was that perhaps the RF filtering cables between Blu2 and Dave are taking all the crap out anyway and could that be why I was struggling to hear a difference with/without the jitterbug and also between the SE and Statement. I know that sounds like a plug for my cables but you just have to accept it is not intended that way. 

I use Dave alone in another system and that is why I am still interested in getting a jitterbug to improve the usb into the Dave. I will therefore do more listening at the weekend with the jitterbug and I will use it straight into Dave without Blu2 (this is after all the Dave thread ). In the interests of taking the SE out of the equation I will also try different USB sources with the jitterbug. Everyone seems to recommend them so I am guessing it is just a matter of playing until I can get it to make a difference.


----------



## Clive101

Triode User said:


> So the other possibility that I wondered about was that perhaps the RF filtering cables between Blu2 and Dave are taking all the crap out



I have had the same experience, different cable manufacture, both with BNC connection with Daveblu2 and USB with stand alone Dave.

After mains treatment less effect so I tried mains treatment with standard cables still a difference but less which seems to imply the same result.

I also have a Jitterbug......


----------



## AndrewOld

ecwl said:


> If you can’t hear much difference with Jitterbug, it usually means your source setup (aka. zenith SE in this case) is excellent.



iirc, in Robs original post he said that the jitterbug + a pc running off its mains adaptor gave 75% of the performance of the pc running from batteries without the jitterbug. The issue the jitterbug attenuates is the fact that the galvanic isolation of the DAVE isn't absolutely perfect, there is some residual coupling. Running your pc from batteries removes the problem.


----------



## jonstatt

rgs9200m said:


> After some experiments, I like an Audioquest Jitterbug + Audioquest Diamond USB cable for the best, most "grounded" sound without any other USB filters.



Did you know that there is a new version of the AQ Diamond cable? It now incorporates a new DBS module. AQ found that the extra wire that runs down the cable for the DBS anode could itself be a way for RF to get to the signal wires. The new DBS module called DBS Carbon, has a, supposedly expensive capacitor in it that acts as an RF Trap. Make of that what you will! Did I give you upgraditis?


----------



## rgs9200m (Jul 13, 2018)

No, I haven't kept track of that, thanks. Oh no, definitely upgradeitis. I need some rehab.
Maybe this is like built-in ferrites.


----------



## rgs9200m (Jul 14, 2018)

And also, along with the Audioquest Diamond USB cable and Jitterbug,
DAVE gets a Telwire power cord:
http://www.telwire.net/cord/

After experimenting with some Shunyata Anacondas and a TG audio I had, the Telwire was the best, again sounding more mellow up top but preserving transparency and speed in the bass.

This cord is really nice with the DAVE driving an LCD4 and a HE1000v2.


----------



## doraymon

I'm using Roon from my laptop to DAVE via optical.
The cable supports smoothly PCM up to 24/192 and DSD 64 and I get Roon to run lossless at these frequencies.
Only when I play DSD files at 128 or 256 I don't get lossless reproduction as Roon downsamples the signal. 

Is there any way to setup the whole thing so that I get lossless also at higher DSD frequencies?


----------



## elviscaprice (Jul 15, 2018)

doraymon said:


> *DAVE via optical.*
> 
> 
> Is there any way to setup the whole thing so that I get *lossless *also at *higher DSD frequencies*?



No  (Via USB, yes)


----------



## doraymon

elviscaprice said:


> No


Fantastic, thanks.


----------



## delirium

doraymon said:


> I'm using Roon from my laptop to DAVE via optical.
> The cable supports smoothly PCM up to 24/192 and DSD 64 and I get Roon to run lossless at these frequencies.
> Only when I play DSD files at 128 or 256 I don't get lossless reproduction as Roon downsamples the signal.
> 
> Is there any way to setup the whole thing so that I get lossless also at higher DSD frequencies?


Enjoy the jitter


----------



## doraymon

delirium said:


> Enjoy the jitter


I don’t understand neither the technical point nor its irony.


----------



## delirium

doraymon said:


> I don’t understand neither the technical point nor its irony.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter


----------



## doraymon

delirium said:


> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter


Out of curiosity, do you really think this is funny or of any interest to the audience of this forum?


----------



## delirium

doraymon said:


> Out of curiosity, do you really think this is funny or of any interest to the audience of this forum?


I tried to help you


----------



## S Crowther

doraymon said:


> Out of curiosity, do you really think this is funny or of any interest to the audience of this forum?


Absolutely yes.


----------



## doraymon

delirium said:


> I tried to help you


The fact that optical connection is more subject to jitter is well known.
It is also well known that Dave is completely immune to jitter by design.
That is why your ironic comment was irrelevant in my opinion.
Anyhow if the intention was to help I might not share the tone but I do appreciate the intention!
Thanks


----------



## doraymon

S Crowther said:


> Absolutely yes.


Good for you man, so if you read my post above you will also find it interesting!


----------



## delirium

doraymon said:


> Good for you man, so if you read my post above you will also find it interesting!





doraymon said:


> The fact that optical connection is more subject to jitter is well known.
> It is also well known that Dave is completely immune to jitter by design.
> That is why your ironic comment was irrelevant in my opinion.
> Anyhow if the intention was to help I might not share the tone but I do appreciate the intention!
> Thanks


It is not immune to jitter?????


----------



## doraymon

delirium said:


> It is not immune to jitter?????


It is!!!!!!!!
So I won't enjoy the jitter as you said because Dave is going to get rid of it.


----------



## delirium

doraymon said:


> It is!!!!!!!!
> So I won't enjoy the jitter as you said because Dave is going to get rid of it.


So why does it get better..when i got away the laptop then?


----------



## delirium

doraymon said:


> It is!!!!!!!!
> So I won't enjoy the jitter as you said because Dave is going to get rid of it.


Is mac book pro 
special built to reduce jitter?


----------



## x RELIC x

delirium said:


> So why does it get better..when i got away the laptop then?



Describe ‘better’.

Measurements from Rob show that it is jitter immune from the DPLL and Pulse Array elements. The question really is two parts:

1) What improvements are heard?

2) Can you measureably and empirically point to jitter as the reason for a difference, or is there another mechanism changing the sound between sources?


----------



## doraymon

delirium said:


> Is mac book pro
> special built to reduce jitter?


I give up


----------



## delirium (Jul 16, 2018)

x RELIC x said:


> Describe ‘better’.
> 
> Measurements from Rob show that it is jitter immune from the DPLL and Pulse Array elements. The question really is two parts:
> 
> ...


More crisp tighter calm analog sound..more musical..and yes there could be other factors playing in also besides jitter?
for example: power supply. But bad power 
adds jitter also....so yeh...almost everything is jitter!


----------



## x RELIC x

delirium said:


> ...almost everything is jitter!



We’ll have to agree to disagree on this statement.


----------



## delirium

delirium said:


> More crisp tighter calm analog sound..more musical..and yes there could be other factors playing in also besides jitter?
> for example: power supply





x RELIC x said:


> We’ll have to agree to disagree on this statement.


----------



## delirium

Time-based damage (jitter) to this information within the data package makes the sound small and flat instead of 3D, harsh and foggy instead of smooth and clear.


----------



## draytonklammer (Jul 16, 2018)

delirium said:


> It is not immune to jitter?????



You're a hoot.
Consider finding another thread to troll though.

On another note, I am still using optical with my DAVE (over previous USB) and it has been great. I mainly use it as Rob has suggested it to be the best input in previous posts.


----------



## delirium

draytonklammer said:


> You're a hoot.
> Consider finding another thread to troll though.
> 
> On another note, I am still using optical with my DAVE (over previous USB) and it has been great. I mainly use it as Rob has suggested it to be the best input in previous posts.


I am not trolling!! Its my own 
experience


----------



## delirium

draytonklammer said:


> You're a hoot.
> Consider finding another thread to troll though.
> 
> On another note, I am still using optical with my DAVE (over previous USB) and it has been great. I mainly use it as Rob has suggested it to be the best input in previous posts.


What are you using it with?


----------



## delirium (Jul 16, 2018)

With his other DACs, optical sounds best.  With DAVE, USB sounds best and Rob has stated this many times.  With DAVE's floating USB design, it is galvanically isolated.  It is also the only input that is synchronously tied to DAVE's clock.  The other inputs go through DPLL.



The dX-USB HD Ultra is another story and was purchased in anticipation of Chord's new Blu Mk 2 which was originally only going to include a SPDIF input.  Amazingly, even though DAVE sounds best via USB, SOtM's clock is so good that I now have DAVE's SPDIF input sounding better than DAVE's USB input but a very good High Fidelity Cables SPDIF cable has something to do with that as well. Romaz said this


----------



## draytonklammer

delirium said:


> With his other DACs, optical sounds best.  With DAVE, USB sounds best and Rob has stated this many times.  With DAVE's floating USB design, it is galvanically isolated.  It is also the only input that is synchronously tied to DAVE's clock.  The other inputs go through DPLL.
> 
> 
> 
> The dX-USB HD Ultra is another story and was purchased in anticipation of Chord's new Blu Mk 2 which was originally only going to include a SPDIF input.  Amazingly, even though DAVE sounds best via USB, SOtM's clock is so good that I now have DAVE's SPDIF input sounding better than DAVE's USB input but a very good High Fidelity Cables SPDIF cable has something to do with that as well. Romaz said this



May want to run that by Rob. 

I've seen multiple posts in this thread of his that favored optical.


----------



## Triode User

draytonklammer said:


> May want to run that by Rob.
> 
> I've seen multiple posts in this thread of his that favored optical.



I thought that RW’s most recent thoughts were that he favoured optical into Dave but of course there are other designers who might have their own differing conclusions in the optical vs usb debate. Innuos for instance are firmly behind usb.


----------



## iDesign

Rob did in fact say this:



Rob Watts said:


> For both tt and Dave, usb is best, closely followed by optical, then last is coax.


----------



## delirium

draytonklammer said:


> May want to run that by Rob.
> 
> I've seen multiple posts in this thread of his that favored optical.


Optical may be fine...but not from a laptop


----------



## Triode User

iDesign said:


> Rob did in fact say this:



That was Feb 2016. Look at his more recent posts.


----------



## draytonklammer

Triode User said:


> That was Feb 2016. Look at his more recent posts.



This ^

The most recent posts I've seen favor optical.


----------



## delirium

Maybe i have a crappy laptop.....but i take my sotm sms 200 ultra over laptop!!!@!


----------



## iDesign

Rob did in fact say this more recently. 



Rob Watts said:


> This categorically has not been my experience - I have listened to many USB cables on Dave many times, and have never been able to hear any difference in USB cables whatsoever. Moreover, the difference between optical and USB is minute, and only apparent with careful AB listening, and in practice inconsequential.
> 
> Moreover, your assertion that a battery powered source does not solve RFI is just plain wrong. Battery powered sources, that have no ground connected, coupled via Dave's galvanically isolated USB, has effectively perfect isolation from the source ground to Dave's internal ground. It's isolation is actually more effective than optical via a mains powered source, as the ground coupling loop is via the source to general ground - and that capacitance is measured in fempto Farads or fF, and this coupling capacitance is insignificant compared to the low impedance path of a mains powered optical connection. Just because a source uses optical does not guarantee perfect isolation, as the mains provides a RF connection path into Dave - but a battery powered source via USB does provide effectively perfect isolation.


----------



## delirium

iDesign said:


> Rob did in fact say this more recently.


But the clock matters....i can hear it....that is before dave.


----------



## jonstatt

delirium said:


> But the clock matters....i can hear it....that is before dave.



rob watts said: ↑
Normally dacs are sensitive to source jitter, but my dacs are not, due to the DPLL which eliminates incoming jitter, buffers the data and creates a local clock sychronisation.
So you are just left with benefits of optical which is galvanic isolation, which reduces noise floor modulation thus making it sound smoother and darker. With usb we have galvanic isolation too, but the clock is allready local as timing for usb comes from the dac.


----------



## draytonklammer

Well if Rob/enough people keep saying USB I'll buy a cable today.

Be curious to see if that happens or not.

With that being said, optical seems to be the suggestion currently.


----------



## delirium (Jul 16, 2018)

Rob watts this Rob watts that.....he has gone back and forth himself.. i am getting tired off this!!! I know what i hear!!!


----------



## Crgreen (Jul 16, 2018)

delirium said:


> But the clock matters....i can hear it....that is before dave.



But Rob says that such devices can only make things worse. I’m not sure if he’s ever tried any, but that’s what Rob says.

Rob also says that optical is better, maybe. His views appear to have changed somewhat.

The problem with “Rob says” reasoning is that it’s you who listens, not him, so it might be best to just make up your own mind. Listening to some music and deciding whether it sounds good is probably the best course, as that’s what these devices are designed for. Controversial, but it’s always worked for me.


----------



## delirium

Crgreen said:


> But Rob says that such devices can only make things worse. I’m not sure if he’s ever tried any, but that’s what Rob says.
> 
> Rob also says that optical is better, maybe. His views appear to have changed somewhat.
> 
> The problem with “Rob says” reasoning is that it’s you who listens, not him, so it might be best to just make up your own mind. Listening to some music and deciding whether it sounds good is probably the best course, as that’s what these devices are designed for. Controversial, but it’s always worked for me.


+1


----------



## jlbrach

seems from all i have read here from rob that usb from a laptop source on battery power is best


----------



## delirium (Jul 16, 2018)

jlbrach said:


> seems from all i have read here from rob that usb from a laptop source on battery power is best


How can that be? Its a noisy crappy clock in a laptop? And its not all that matters? Everything matters....from your modem to router.....to......i give up. And a crappy battery in a laptop.


----------



## delirium (Jul 16, 2018)

One more thing! As good as dave is...and it is good....it is not magic....it can not recreate what is not there? Sayonarra.


----------



## Crgreen

jlbrach said:


> seems from all i have read here from rob that usb from a laptop source on battery power is best



In fairness, he appears to say it’s the best he’s heard but we don’t know what comparisons he’s made. Romaz reported that he’d spent some time with Rob and a high-end server (it might have been a Zenith SE) and Rob preferred his battery laptop, feeling that the server introduced artificial additives. 

I don’t want to put words into his mouth, but I think Rob believes that upstream of the Dave (or Blu2) bits is bits and RFI transmission is the only issue.


----------



## x RELIC x (Jul 16, 2018)

As of Jan 11/2018...



Rob Watts said:


> Yes optical is the best input - its really a question of getting the other inputs to match optical.






delirium said:


> Rob watts this Rob watts that.....he has gone back and forth himself.. i am getting tired off this!!! I know what i hear!!!


No one is arguing that you hear a difference. The only debatable point is your absolute conviction as to where the differences are coming from (jitter).

In the end you have to use what you enjoy the most.


----------



## delirium

One more thing: power supply!!! Don't 
underestimate this! I am out.....


----------



## doraymon (Jul 17, 2018)

x RELIC x said:


> The only debatable point is your absolute conviction as to where the differences are coming from (jitter).
> 
> In the end you have to use what you enjoy the most.


+100
I did many tests before choosing my preferred setup.
I have tried a $3k SOtM chain on USB, I removed it, I tried both with and without a ton of carefully selected ferrite chokes...
I added and removed a $750 audiophile network switch.
All of the above was (to my ears) inferior to a simple iPad streaming via USB to the Dave.
And again all the above sounded inferior to my MacBook Pro via optical to Dave, with the iPad being very very close to the optical solution.

That's how I got my answer.


----------



## doraymon (Jul 17, 2018)

Ah, I forgot the best part:
Dark in the room.
Dave, Utopias, Colleen's "Gemoetria Del Universo".
A glass of Lagavulin 16 with 1 single ice cube.

I feel as a king sitting on his throne...


----------



## delirium

doraymon said:


> Ah, I forgot the best part:
> Dark in the room.
> Dave, Utopias, Colleen's "Gemoetria Del Universo".
> A glass of Lagavulin 16 with 1 single ice cube.
> ...


I am happy for you


----------



## draytonklammer

So is the seeming conclusion (from a technical and creator point) optical > USB? Only ask because if it's the other way around I'm considering buying an Audioquest Coffee.


----------



## SuperBurrito

draytonklammer said:


> With that being said, optical seems to be the suggestion currently.



You just need to try both.  Plenty of online or brick-and-mortar shops will let you borrow a cable.

I compared USB to optical and slightly prefer USB.  It wasn't a huge difference for me.

But my USB path is fairly well sorted out.  Paul Peng audiophile USB card, Audioquest jitterbug, Cardas USB cable...all from a PC that I built from top of the line components.


----------



## draytonklammer

SuperBurrito said:


> You just need to try both.  Plenty of online or brick-and-mortar shops will let you borrow a cable.
> 
> I compared USB to optical and slightly prefer USB.  It wasn't a huge difference for me.
> 
> But my USB path is fairly well sorted out.  Paul Peng audiophile USB card, Audioquest jitterbug, Cardas USB cable...all from a PC that I built from top of the line components.



The last time I compared I didn't favor either in any way. 

That being said, optical seems to be claimed as the weapon of choice for Dave along with being a goof way to transfer as long as you don't need anything fancy like DSD.


----------



## darkless

Alright, since we're talking about comparing USB on the DAVE, I have experiences of my own to share:

Today, I connected my 10 year old "once-considered-gaming-enthusiast" PC with a 12,5m optical cable to my Chord DAVE, as I wanted to compare it to my existing USB chain with a 12m Supra USB cable. The cables are that long due to the PC sitting in an office adjacent to the listening room. The USB chain remained connected to the Chord DAVE during the optical listening test, as it would be a hassle to take it out for each comparison, so you may consider the optical chain slightly handicapped in that regard.

The optical chain is:
PC -> 12,5m optical cable -> Chord DAVE

The USB chain is:
PC -> 12m Supra USB cable -> ISO REGEN (powered by LPS-1.2 connected via a male/male DC adapter) -> USPCB -> Chord DAVE

As I previously had confirmed that the PC -> Chord DAVE setup was capable of handling 192 KHz content using a much shorter 2m optical cable, I started listening to the optical chain using a 192 KHz recording from 2L, and it sounded absolutely great! I closed my eyes and let the music take me. Afterwards, I switched to the USB chain and while the same track still sounded very good, the microdynamics had been smoothed out a bit, causing a small drop of perceived clarity and reducing my emotional engagement with the music. Switching back to the optical chain restored that. The slight smoothing was now gone, leading to the orchestra and in particular the soloist violin being more clear, more dynamic, more engaging. I could close my eyes again.

I know my PC is very noisy as it is a watercooled monster with dual graphics cards, tons of fans, water pumps, etc. and the main reason I invested in the ISO REGEN/LPS-1.2 combo in the first place. I would think the problem area is either the small DC adapter or the lack of ferrites on the very long Supra USB cable, which is probably an excellent RF "magnet" due to its length. Since I hardly have any recordings in higher resolution than 192 KHz, I could probably settle for the optical chain, but the perfectionist in me would hate to leave the job half done. not to mention having expensive USB gear sitting around unused.

Has anyone experienced or had any luck getting rid of a slight smoothing over of microdetails in their USB chain by either getting rid of RF using ferrites on the USB cable or improving the DC connection to their USB source, e.g. ISO REGEN, micro- or ultraRendu or similar?


----------



## doraymon

darkless said:


> Alright, since we're talking about comparing USB on the DAVE, I have experiences of my own to share:



Have you got an iPad with a short USB cable and adapter to stream music to the Dave?


----------



## Crgreen

darkless said:


> Alright, since we're talking about comparing USB on the DAVE, I have experiences of my own to share:
> 
> Today, I connected my 10 year old "once-considered-gaming-enthusiast" PC with a 12,5m optical cable to my Chord DAVE, as I wanted to compare it to my existing USB chain with a 12m Supra USB cable. The cables are that long due to the PC sitting in an office adjacent to the listening room. The USB chain remained connected to the Chord DAVE during the optical listening test, as it would be a hassle to take it out for each comparison, so you may consider the optical chain slightly handicapped in that regard.
> 
> ...



There are a number of possible explanations, including the length of USB cable — anything over 4 metres or so is not recommended — and the slight superiority of optical over USB with the Dave. In my experience, a slight smoothing over of sound is not an indication of RF, which tends to introduce edginess.


----------



## Triode User (Jul 18, 2018)

Crgreen said:


> There are a number of possible explanations, including the length of USB cable — anything over 4 metres or so is not recommended — and the slight superiority of optical over USB with the Dave. In my experience, a slight smoothing over of sound is not an indication of RF, which tends to introduce edginess.



I'm with Crgreen here, in my experience 'smoother' is not something which would be associated with RF or other crap overlaid on the signal. And this is where it is so difficult to discuss 'better' on in internet forum. For instance the RF that comes out of Blu2 could be mistaken for detail or life in the music or might even sound as if it is more 3D. Taking the crap out of the digital signal basically makes the music 'smoother' or at least less hard or with less digital glare. It takes a bit of listening and getting used to the new normal and then all the true detail comes through rather than the false detail due to RF.

I find that a sure test is to play the music as loud as you dare. With all the crap on the signal line you might find you very quickly want to turn the volume down. When it is gone the music no longer feels loud and in fact you may even turn it up higher.


----------



## delirium

draytonklammer said:


> So is the seeming conclusion (from a technical and creator point) optical > USB? Only ask because if it's the other way around I'm considering buying an Audioquest Coffee.


Go for diamond


----------



## delirium

Triode User said:


> I'm with Crgreen here, in my experience 'smoother' is not something which would be associated with RF or other crap overlaid on the signal. And this is where it is so difficult to discuss 'better' on in internet forum. For instance the RF that comes out of Blu2 could be mistaken for detail or life in the music or might even sound as if it is more 3D. Taking the crap out of the digital signal basically makes the music 'smoother' or at least less hard or with less digital glare. It takes a bit of listening and getting used to the new normal and then all the true detail comes through rather than the false detail due to RF.
> 
> I find that a sure test is to play the music as loud as you dare. With all the crap on the signal line you very quickly want to turn the volume down. When it is gone the music no longer feels loud and in fact you may even turn it up higher.


C


Triode User said:


> I'm with Crgreen here, in my experience 'smoother' is not something which would be associated with RF or other crap overlaid on the signal. And this is where it is so difficult to discuss 'better' on in internet forum. For instance the RF that comes out of Blu2 could be mistaken for detail or life in the music or might even sound as if it is more 3D. Taking the crap out of the digital signal basically makes the music 'smoother' or at least less hard or with less digital glare. It takes a bit of listening and getting used to the new normal and then all the true detail comes through rather than the false detail due to RF.
> 
> I find that a sure test is to play the music as loud as you dare. With all the crap on the signal line you might find you very quickly want to turn the volume down. When it is gone the music no longer feels loud and in fact you may even turn it up higher.


Hi! Can you explain to people why you dont use pc or laptop? Thanks...


----------



## rgs9200m (Jul 18, 2018)

I second the Diamond cable suggestion from Delirium. The Diamond was much better (yep surprisingly better) than the Carbon. I still have both.


----------



## delirium

rgs9200m said:


> I second the Diamond cable suggestion from Delirium.


Why? Thanks


----------



## rgs9200m (Jul 18, 2018)

I tried a few USB cables before I got the Diamond when I first got my Hugo, and the Diamond really stood out in all the well-known audiophile sonic attributes we generally look for. This quality has proven true in both the Hugo TT and DAVE as I moved up the Chord line.
The Diamond was really a revelation in giving the digital the best attributes of analog.

(Edit for spelling error only.)


----------



## delirium

rgs9200m said:


> I tried a few USB cables before I got the Diamond when I first got my Hugo, and the Diamond really stood out in all the well-known audiophile sonic attributes we generally look for. This quality has proven true in both the Hugo TT and DAVE as I moved up the Chord line.
> The Diamond war really a revelation in giving the digital the best attributes of analog.


I agree...thanks


----------



## elviscaprice (Jul 18, 2018)

I think we need to be careful on these assumptions about optical vs. USB.  I agree that digital glare is something we all strive to eliminate in playback and that a good test of that glare is listening fatigue.  One should never get fatigued by their listening sessions but I don't think high volume listening is a good example of testing.  High volume can be fatiguing in it's own right for many regardless of RF glare.  Better is an appropriate volume level over time.
Also, we must be careful about what we call coloring sound.  That is the reduction of detail or smoothing of the edges in order to gain a more pleasing sound, smoother.   
We can have precise detail and non fatiguing sound with DAVE.   I'm in the everything matters club, clocking and power especially, upstream or downstream of DAVE.  Optical is no less immune to this, than USB, just to a different degree from clocking.


----------



## delirium

elviscaprice said:


> I think we need to be careful on these assumptions about optical vs. USB.  I agree that digital glare is something we all strive to eliminate in playback and that a good test of that glare is listening fatigue.  One should never get fatigued by their listening sessions but I don't think high volume listening is a good example of testing.  High volume can be fatiguing in it's own right for many regardless of RF glare.  Better is an appropriate volume level over time.
> Also, we must be careful about what we call coloring sound.  That is the reduction of detail or smoothing of the edges in order to gain a more pleasing sound, smoother.
> We can have precise detail and non fatiguing sound with DAVE.   I'm in the everything matters club, clocking and power especially, upstream or downstream of DAVE.  Optical is no less immune to this, than USB, just to a different degree from clocking.


I love u


----------



## rgs9200m (Jul 18, 2018)

Well, actually, higher volume listening is a good test I believe. In Tyll's (epic?) test of amplifiers for the Stax SR009 a few years ago, he emphasized how this revealing headphone that can easily show digital glare was basically only really acceptable with the BHSE amp since, as he turned the volume up, the sound just got louder, not fatiguing in the highs. None of the many other amps passed this test.

And that rings true, since I have always noticed that a fatiguing headphone session will always have me turn down the volume lower than I want to have a nice sound that saturates my music senses.
-------------
tl/dr:
If I can't make it loud enough to enjoy without shout and glare, something is wrong with the system.


----------



## Triode User

rgs9200m said:


> Well, actually, higher volume listening is a good test I believe. In Tyll's (epic?) test of amplifiers for the Stax SR009 a few years ago, he emphasized how this revealing headphone that can easily show digital glare was basically only really acceptable with the BHSE amp since, as he turned the volume up, the sound just got louder, not fatiguing in the highs. None of the many other amps passed this test.
> 
> And that rings true, since I have always noticed that a fatiguing headphone session will always have me turn down the volume lower than I want to have a nice sound that saturates my music senses.
> -------------
> ...



Exactly and precisely. I find turning up the volume is a really good test. I use speakers and it is a joy now to be able turn up the volume high enough that a can feel the bass guitar and kick drum in my stomach (I don’t have a sub speaker so this is just my normal speakers). In an unsorted system I can’t get it loud enough before the harshness makes it unbearable and the fatigue makes me want to turn it off, never mind just down.


----------



## etnt

I used to listen to the Dave at -30db, but recently moved on to -28db. So either there's less digital glare or I'm just going deaf?


----------



## Triode User

With Blu2 connected to Dave and then Dave direct into my Pass Labs power amps I used to mostly have Dave at -24db but now without the RF noise I often listen at -20db and one evening I noticed I had it at -18db without it seeming ridiculous.

So, like @etnt , I also say either there's less digital glare or I'm also just going deaf.


----------



## rgs9200m

Nice system Triode. Back in my speaker-based days, I had a Pass X350 w/Aerial 10T speakers, and when initially got the Pass I was struck at how the Pass made vocals sound so riveting and pure I thought I got new speakers.
The previous amp (an Aragon) just couldn't even come halfway close to this.


----------



## delirium (Jul 20, 2018)

.


----------



## musickid

Enjoy


----------



## EndGameSearch

Question......

I have spent a substantial amount of money in the name of transparency.  From Blu2 to various HFC products, my HP rig is sounding amazing.  Adding a HP amp is somewhat counterproductive at this point, but I miss having the option for some tubey goodness at times and I'm back to researching amps.  I understand the XLR output on DAVE was included as a convenience, and if I'm remembering correctly, it actually adds a stage that in itself can degrade transparency to a degree.  So that leads to the question, all other variables being equal, is it "better" to use a single ended amp or a balanced amp off of DAVE if you aim to preserve as much transparency as possible?


----------



## Triode User

EndGameSearch said:


> Question......
> 
> I have spent a substantial amount of money in the name of transparency.  From Blu2 to various HFC products, my HP rig is sounding amazing.  Adding a HP amp is somewhat counterproductive at this point, but I miss having the option for some tubey goodness at times and I'm back to researching amps.  I understand the XLR output on DAVE was included as a convenience, and if I'm remembering correctly, it actually adds a stage that in itself can degrade transparency to a degree.  So that leads to the question, all other variables being equal, is it "better" to use a single ended amp or a balanced amp off of DAVE if you aim to preserve as much transparency as possible?



I suspect that the difference in amps that you are looking at would be bigger than the difference between the rca and xlr on Dave. But if you are looking at tube amps I thought that they are mostly not available in balanced format anyway. I use the balanced output from Dave to my Pass Labs monos because of the longish length so that I could take advantage of the inherent noise cancelling properties of balanced cables. It sounds great and in truth I can’t be bothered to make up some rca cables of that length to test.


----------



## EndGameSearch (Jul 20, 2018)

Triode User said:


> I suspect that the difference in amps that you are looking at would be bigger than the difference between the rca and xlr on Dave. But if you are looking at tube amps I thought that they are mostly not available in balanced format anyway. I use the balanced output from Dave to my Pass Labs monos because of the longish length so that I could take advantage of the inherent noise cancelling properties of balanced cables. It sounds great and in truth I can’t be bothered to make up some rca cables of that length to test.


I previously owned a Woo Audio WA22 which is a true fully balanced design but I was considering one of their single ended designs simply so I would not have to reterminate my Danacables. The WA33 (balanced) is very tempting. My only experience with tubes is with Woo but I’m open to suggestions. My rig is only used for HP’s.


----------



## GraveNoX

darkless said:


> Alright, since we're talking about comparing USB on the DAVE, I have experiences of my own to share:
> 
> Today, I connected my 10 year old "once-considered-gaming-enthusiast" PC with a 12,5m optical cable to my Chord DAVE, as I wanted to compare it to my existing USB chain with a 12m Supra USB cable. The cables are that long due to the PC sitting in an office adjacent to the listening room. The USB chain remained connected to the Chord DAVE during the optical listening test, as it would be a hassle to take it out for each comparison, so you may consider the optical chain slightly handicapped in that regard.
> 
> ...


Try something similar to Delock 63276 which is a HDMI extractor with toslink out, it offers way way better sound compared to included toslink out of my PC with $250 Asus motherboard. The toslink out from the motherboard sounded better than USB no matter what I did to filter it, but that HDMI extractor changed the way I hear the Hugo 2.


----------



## rgs9200m (Jul 20, 2018)

EndGame, if your budget is high and you want tubes along with transparency, I recommend the Apex Pinnacle.
(It's now in it's second generation that I have not heard, but I have the original so i can vouch for that version for it as a great match with my DAVE.)
You get a nice tube glow with clear bass and speed.
I have used it in SE and balanced mode (with SE and balanced headphones) over the several years I have owned it. It's fine with both kinds of input and output in all combinations.
You can tune it significantly with the (single) 6NS7 tube it uses.


----------



## EndGameSearch

rgs9200m said:


> EndGame, if your budget is high and you want tubes along with transparency, I recommend the Apex Pinnacle.
> (It's now in it's second generation that I have not heard, but I have the original so i can vouch for that version for it as a great match with my DAVE.)
> You get a nice tube glow with clear bass and speed.
> I have used it in SE and balanced mode (with SE and balanced headphones) over the several years I have owned it. It's fine with both kinds of input and output in all combinations.
> You can tune it significantly with the (single) 6NS7 tube it uses.


Thanks for the recommendation.  I'll look into it.  Right now I'm leaning towards Woo's WA5-LE but only because I'm familiar with Woo.


----------



## rgs9200m

One nice thing about the Pinnacle is that it runs cool for a tube amp. It does not generate a lot of ambient heat.


----------



## erik701

Chord Hugo M Scaler is here


----------



## spotforscott

No other info on it yet?


----------



## AndrewOld (Jul 21, 2018)

Fantastic! Thank you! Am trying to read/figure out the controls .. I can read Video and Input .. What are the others?


----------



## EndGameSearch

https://darko.audio/2018/07/chord-electronics-announce-hugo-m-scaler/


----------



## rayl

spotforscott said:


> No other info on it yet?



There was a prematurely released what hifi piece but they’ve since locked it down... it may unlock at the right time. I grabbed the url.

https://www.whathifi.com/news/chord-electronics-unveils-hugo-m-scaler-canjam-2018


----------



## AndrewOld

EndGameSearch said:


> https://darko.audio/2018/07/chord-electronics-announce-hugo-m-scaler/



Superb! Thank You! £3,500. Not bad at all.


----------



## spotforscott

It looks like it takes a 15v DC input. I wonder how many amps is required?


----------



## Crgreen

spotforscott said:


> It looks like it takes a 15v DC input. I wonder how many amps is required?



I wonder if it will need ferrites or if that issue has been solved. I suppose we won’t know until another 6 months or so.


----------



## Triode User (Jul 21, 2018)

AndrewOld said:


> Superb! Thank You! £3,500. Not bad at all.



Andrew, you win fair and square our bet about an MScaler being announced this year. PM me your favoured charity and I will make the donation.


----------



## miketlse

spotforscott said:


> It looks like it takes a 15v DC input. I wonder how many amps is required?


The MScaler core within the Blu2, was taking 10A @ 1V
So that is probably a good start point, for estimating how much the standalone version needs.


----------



## AndrewOld

Here’s a press release in Dutch ..

https://www.hifi.nl/artikel/26931/C...scaler-voorzien-van-geavanceerde-filters.html


----------



## spotforscott

miketlse said:


> The MScaler core within the Blu2, was taking 10A @ 1V
> So that is probably a good start point, for estimating how much the standalone version needs.



Thanks. Any idea how many watts?


----------



## audio_1

spotforscott said:


> Thanks. Any idea how many watts?


----------



## audio_1 (Jul 21, 2018)

Hugo M-scaler details are now on Chords web-site. It has "1 x galvanically isolated dual BNC (enables upscaling to the maximum resolution (768kHz from 96kHz data)" I wonder will this eliminate the need for ferrites? It even has DX volume controls so can be connected directly to the Pulse array amplifier.


----------



## Triode User

miketlse said:


> The MScaler core within the Blu2, was taking 10A @ 1V
> So that is probably a good start point, for estimating how much the standalone version needs.



My Blu2 MScaler (on a not very accurate meter) consumes 13w in idle mode and 23w when fed a USB signal ie when the MScaler is processing. So if the Hugo MScaler consumes about the same then 23W at 15V is 1.5amps which is a bit more than the just the 10amps at 1V for the FPGA.


----------



## AndrewOld (Jul 21, 2018)

audio_1 said:


> Hugo M-scaler details are now on Chords web-site. It has "1 x galvanically isolated dual BNC (enables upscaling to the maximum resolution (768kHz from 96kHz data)" I wonder will this eliminate the need for ferrites? It even has DX controls so can be connected directly to the Pulse array amplifier.



I notice it also says “Auto video and Source selection”. How does it know to auto select video?

And it also says “When partnered with either of Chord Electronics’ 768kHz-capable dual-BNC-input DACs, the Hugo M Scaler sets an astonishing technical benchmark”. Is that right? Aren’t there more than two dual BNC input Chord DACS?


----------



## miketlse

AndrewOld said:


> I notice it also says “Auto video and Source selection”. How does it know to auto select video?
> 
> And it also says “When partnered with either of Chord Electronics’ 768kHz-capable dual-BNC-input DACs, the Hugo M Scaler sets an astonishing technical benchmark”. Is that right? Aren’t there more than two dual BNC input Chord DACS?


No mention of the Hugo2, which seems strange.


----------



## ecwl

AndrewOld said:


> I notice it also says “Auto video and Source selection”. How does it know to auto select video?
> 
> And it also says “When partnered with either of Chord Electronics’ 768kHz-capable dual-BNC-input DACs, the Hugo M Scaler sets an astonishing technical benchmark”. Is that right? Aren’t there more than two dual BNC input Chord DACS?


I think once you have set each input as to whether you want 1M taps or 2/3M taps, you won’t have to switch it again, unlike me flipping the Blu2 back switch all the time
Qutest, Hugo 2, Hugo TT2 and DAVE accepts dual BNC


----------



## audio_1

AndrewOld said:


> I notice it also says “Auto video and Source selection”. How does it know to auto select video?
> 
> And it also says “When partnered with either of Chord Electronics’ 768kHz-capable dual-BNC-input DACs, the Hugo M Scaler sets an astonishing technical benchmark”. Is that right? Aren’t there more than two dual BNC input Chord DACS?


They mustn't be counting the 1x 3.5mm Jack Coaxial 768kHz/32-bit Capable Input on the Mojo and Hugo.


----------



## AndrewOld

ecwl said:


> I think once you have set each input as to whether you want 1M taps or 2/3M taps, you won’t have to switch it again, unlike me flipping the Blu2 back switch all the time
> Qutest, Hugo 2, Hugo TT2 and DAVE accepts dual BNC



OK. It’s a small point, but not so sure I would be entirely happy with auto input selection unless you can also force the input. You might say, be listening to some music but watching your tv waiting for a program to start. You’d want to control when you switched inputs.


----------



## miketlse

ecwl said:


> I think once you have set each input as to whether you want 1M taps or 2/3M taps, you won’t have to switch it again, unlike me flipping the Blu2 back switch all the time
> Qutest, Hugo 2, Hugo TT2 and DAVE accepts dual BNC


But the chord page https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/hugo-mscaler/ makes no mention of Hugo 2. Is Hugo 2 the poor relative that will only be able to reach 2/3M taps?


----------



## ecwl

AndrewOld said:


> OK. It’s a small point, but not so sure I would be entirely happy with auto input selection unless you can also force the input. You might say, be listening to some music but watching your tv waiting for a program to start. You’d want to control when you switched inputs.


Currently, I just stop playing the music from my USB device. Now, I’m cheap so I usually turn off the UltraRendu so it’ll switch to my video source automatically. Not sure how good the auto detection is since I just don’t push it that hard. Works for my listening habits every time.


----------



## coopdog

I was wondering what the benefit of the Dave over the Qutest would be if both are partnered with the new m-scaler?
Thanks in advance!


----------



## AndrewOld

I think I read when the Blu2 came out that as the Blu2 takes over the upsampling work from the DAVE a good portion of the DAVE is redundant once an M Scaler is added. If that is the case, is it imaginable that Chord could bring out a DAVE type DAC but minus the stuff that the M Scaler replaces, with no inputs other than the M Scaler, in an M Scaler type box, at a less high price point. Same argument applies to the HugoTT2 - the M Scaler takes over a good chunk of it's functionality so can does a variant which is DAC but no upsampler or inputs make sense?


----------



## simorag

Here is the first YouTube coverage:


Will order mine soon


----------



## Crgreen (Jul 21, 2018)

simorag said:


> Here is the first YouTube coverage:
> 
> 
> Will order mine soon




Always good to know wot this geezer finks, and that he poops himself.


----------



## AndrewOld

If you take upsampling and taps out of the equation with the M Scaler, what is the effective difference between a Hugo TT2 and a DAVE? ie what does the DAVE have that the TT2 doesn’t and/or vice versa. 

And is a DAC imaginable. say in a M Scaler case, that just does the DAC bit and leaves the unpsampling to the M Scaler? In other words no redundant cores doing upsampling, and no redundant inputs.


----------



## x RELIC x (Jul 21, 2018)

AndrewOld said:


> If you take upsampling and taps out of the equation with the M Scaler, what is the effective difference between a Hugo TT2 and a DAVE? ie what does the DAVE have that the TT2 doesn’t and/or vice versa.
> 
> And is a DAC imaginable. say in a M Scaler case, that just does the DAC bit and leaves the unpsampling to the M Scaler? In other words no redundant cores doing upsampling, and no redundant inputs.



TT2 has 98,304 TAPs, supercaps, _huge_ power output, and 10e Pulse Array DAC.

DAVE has 164,000 TAPs, 20e Pulse Array DAC.

Measurably the DAVE is still the best DAC but the TT2 has a lot going for it. Need more impressions and comparisons to get a big picture of subjective sound impressions.

The M scaler would level the playing field somewhat, but the 20 element Pulse Array in the DAVE is a key factor after the M scaler.


----------



## AndrewOld (Jul 21, 2018)

x RELIC x said:


> TT2 has 98,304 TAPs, supercaps, _huge_ power output, and 10e Pulse Array DAC.
> 
> DAVE has 164,000 TAPs, 20e Pulse Array DAC.
> 
> ...



Could you put the 20 element pulse array DAC of the DAVE in a box and feed it from an MScaler? If you have an M Scaler you don’t need any of the inputs of the DAVE, or the upscaler. The extra power output of the TT2 is of no interest to anyone with active speakers or a power amp - it will just overload a subsequent amplification stage.


----------



## ecwl

AndrewOld said:


> Could you put the 20 element pulse array DAC of the DAVE in a box and feed it from an MScaler? If you have an M Scaler you don’t need any of the inputs of the DAVE, or the upscaler.


No. But in many ways, the power pulse array amplifiers are probably going to be that box you speak of. After receiving signals from an M-Scaler, assuming it’s 768kHz or 705.4kHz, DAVE still uses another level of a WTA filtering to up sample to 256fs. And then, there’s standard filtering to upsample to 104MHz. And then there is noise shaping to the signal and then conversion to play the sound back using the 20-element pulse array. I see a lot of people just comparing Hugo 2 and DAVE in terms of number of elements but people are forgetting that the noise shapers in DAVE, Hugo TT 2 and Hugo 2 are different.


----------



## ecwl

ecwl said:


> I see a lot of people just comparing Hugo 2 and DAVE in terms of number of elements but people are forgetting that the noise shapers in DAVE, Hugo TT 2 and Hugo 2 are different.


I actually went back to Rob Watts Powerpoint presentations and comments. In terms of noise shaper orders:
Hugo: 5th order noise shaper
Hugo 2: 11th order noise shaper
Hugo TT 2: 12th order noise shaper
DAVE: 17th order noise shaper


----------



## wswbd

Perhaps Chord should make a Dave 2 with the new million taps and TT2 's output power (and yes in one chassis.


----------



## audio_1

wswbd said:


> Perhaps Chord should make a Dave 2 with the new million taps and TT2 's output power (and yes in one chassis.


This will be the Davina which also has an ADC until the Dave 2 is released.


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## AndrewOld

ecwl said:


> No. But in many ways, the power pulse array amplifiers are probably going to be that box you speak of. After receiving signals from an M-Scaler, assuming it’s 768kHz or 705.4kHz, DAVE still uses another level of a WTA filtering to up sample to 256fs. And then, there’s standard filtering to upsample to 104MHz. And then there is noise shaping to the signal and then conversion to play the sound back using the 20-element pulse array. I see a lot of people just comparing Hugo 2 and DAVE in terms of number of elements but people are forgetting that the noise shapers in DAVE, Hugo TT 2 and Hugo 2 are different.



Thanks. Looking ahead, can you see a way for this technology to support active speakers?


----------



## ecwl

AndrewOld said:


> Thanks. Looking ahead, can you see a way for this technology to support active speakers?


Not sure. Speakers as you know requires either passive or active crossovers. It is obviously possible to have an amplifier tech drive any passive crossover speakers but then why make the active speakers to begin with. But once one is committed to an active crossover, that means you’d either need an M-Scaler to get to 16fs and then use that signal to split into your 2-way or 3-way or 4-way signals to be sent to the 2-4 sets of power pulse array amplifiers. Alternatively, I guess you could run the active crossover at the original signal frequency say 44kHz first and then send the 2-4 way signals each into its own M-Scaler and then into its own power pulse array amplifier. That sounds more suboptimal. Either way sounds like a lot of complexity and could get pricey. But then maybe not. I guess once you’ve built a circuit and if it can handle the thermal aspects and noise isolation aspects, maybe it’s possible. Really not sure. But it’s not clear that’s the direction Chord wants to go in.


----------



## Rob Watts

spotforscott said:


> It looks like it takes a 15v DC input. I wonder how many amps is required?



It depends upon the music input and is typically 12W whilst playing.



AndrewOld said:


> I notice it also says “Auto video and Source selection”. How does it know to auto select video?
> 
> And it also says “When partnered with either of Chord Electronics’ 768kHz-capable dual-BNC-input DACs, the Hugo M Scaler sets an astonishing technical benchmark”. Is that right? Aren’t there more than two dual BNC input Chord DACS?



You can have manual video mode (off 1M taps 0.63 S delay, white 2/3M taps 0.1S delay) or auto (48kHz input - cyan - is assumed to be video and all other sample rates is assumed to be not video - yellow) 



Mediahound said:


> You're basing things on an *assumption* since the Blu2 CD player works? We're not talking about that product and Chord themselves (so far at least) has  in fact stated the Hugo M Scaler does not work to full potential with the Hugo 2. They may be wrong, but we should not assume so until we get the official word, or they update their specs for it.


 It does indeed work to full 1M taps 768k with Hugo 2.



Staxton said:


> I'm still confused about exactly what the M Scaler does in conjunction with the Hugo 2. I don't raise this as a criticism; I just want to know if the M Scaler brings the exact same benefits to the Hugo 2 as it does to the DAVE, Hugo TT and the Qutest. And if it does not, how does it differ?
> 
> The press release from Chord re: the M Scaler says:
> 
> ...



Yes Hugo 2 gets exactly the same benefits as Qutest, TT2, and Dave. Frankly it has transformed my usage of Hugo 2... I can't be without it.


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## Raghu6446

Hi rob watts
Does the new mscaller with dave have an advantage over blu dave?
Will there be problem pairing dave to Hugo mscaller as it is meant for Hugo series not the choral series.

Thanks


----------



## Rob Watts

No it's absolutely fine with Dave. The benefits over Blu2 is not having to worry about ferrites on the BNC cables - but remember the whole issue of ferrites was always the top layer of icing on the cake!


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## Raghu6446

Thanks rob 
When these shipping


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## Raghu6446

Rob
Does the new m scaller have the same fpga as the blu2 or is it more advanced?
Which filter has been used in new mscaller as blu2 has 16fs filter?
As dual bnc is galvanically isolated the BNC connectors does it matter to buy an expensive bnc cable?

Thanks


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## Arpiben

Rob Watts said:


> It depends upon the music input and is typically 12W whilst playing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I do really appreciate the DIY Digital BNC cable in the picture.
To some extent, it may show how well EMI is reduced in MSCaler.


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## Staxton

Rob Watts said:


> Yes Hugo 2 gets exactly the same benefits as Qutest, TT2, and Dave. Frankly it has transformed my usage of Hugo 2... I can't be without it.



Thanks very much, Rob for the clarification. I was hoping that was the case. It looks like I have an M Scaler in my future!


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## STR-1

Rob Watts said:


> It depends upon the music input and is typically 12W whilst playing.


I’m sure it will come with a very good smps that will probably be very hard to beat but for those with other power supplies lying around that they might like to try, would a 12V 2A (20A transient) supply by ok to drive the M scaler?


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## elviscaprice

It's not so much that the smps feeding the mscaler will not be good, but that a smps will kick back noise into the mains and degrade sound in components on the same circuit.  Solution, dedicate a circuit to mscaler or use a quality LPS on the same circuit with other components.


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## musickid

Just use a portable battery. I plan to buy 2 for the scaler. So i'm never out of juice.


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## Triode User (Jul 24, 2018)

Rob Watts said:


> You can have manual video mode (off 1M taps 0.63 S delay, white 2/3M taps 0.1S delay) or auto (48kHz input - cyan - is assumed to be video and all other sample rates is assumed to be not video - yellow



For me, the autosensing assumption of 48kHz being video is not helpful. I have a dab radio for when the broadband gets flakey (which it often does here in our remote village) and I will not be helped by autoswitching to 2/3M taps when 48kHz is detected. You might say that it can be manually switched to 1M taps but that is a pain. I suppose I will have to bow to the greater good if video is deemed to be an important feature for the market but I just wanted to put in my 2p worth if I have correctly understood the input and autosensing arrangement.


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## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> For me, the autosensing assumption of 48kHz being video is not helpful. I have a dab radio for when the broadband gets flakey (which it often does here in our remote village) and I will not be helped by autoswitching to 2/3M taps when 48kHz is detected. You might say that it can be manually switched to 1M taps but that is a pain. I suppose I will have to bow to the greater good if video is deemed to be an important feature for the market but I just wanted to put in my 2p worth if I have correctly understood the input and autosensing arrangement.



I think, but I am not sure, that I have also seen some Qobuz albums stream at 48kHz, Will keep my eyes open.


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## AndrewOld (Jul 24, 2018)

Yes, Qobuz has 48kHz albums, and Hyperion - a classical record label - has a fair few 48kHz albums too, typically older recordings. So you can’t assume 48kHz = video. But does the 48kHz = video autosensing only apply to toslink inputs? If so, it’s not an issue for those who use USB.


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## Triode User

I subscribe to the Qobus Sublime+ streaming in order to get up to 192kHz streaming so I may also fall foul of the Qobuz 48kHz albums. @Rob Watts  can the user disable the 48kHz input autoswitching to video 2/3M taps as opposed relying on having to manually switching to 1M taps if a 48kHz input is detected ? 

Also, if 1M taps is manually selected for 48mHz, does the manual selection apply until the user selects autosensing of 48kHz or does HMS ever revert of its own accord to autosensing of 48kHz?


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## AndrewOld (Jul 24, 2018)

Just checked my own rips, and I have but a single 48kHz cd - The Allegri Miserere/Palestrina Missa Papae Marcelli by the Tallis Scholars which I think I must have downloaded from GImell some years ago. It is 24bit/48kHz. A very fine, well known recording.

But Qobuz has plenty - a quick snoop just at Mozart Don Giovanni showed at least one 24bit/48kHz recording by Jeremie Rhorer. My hunch is that opera is more likely to be at 24bit/48kHz because the soundtrack originates from a video based recording.

So, I would most definitely want to be in absolute control over whether the M Scaler flips into video mode or not.

Oh just found another on Qobuz, without hardly trying, Mozart Flute and Harp Concerti/Hartung is 24bit/48kHZ.


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## Crgreen

AndrewOld said:


> Yes, Qobuz has 48kHz albums, and Hyperion - a classical record label - has a fair few 48kHz albums too, typically older recordings. So you can’t assume 48kHz = video. But does the 48kHz = video autosensing only apply to toslink inputs? If so, it’s not an issue for those who use USB.



48khz was the sampling frequency for DAT which is why some older recordings use it. There are however, many recent recordings which also use it, quite a few on ECM, and I think it might be the default for DVD as many DVDs I’ve ripped use it. For some engineers, bit depth is more important and some use 44.1 or 48 (the basic frequencies of which all others are multiples) with 24 bit depth. The Dave and Blu2 don’t have a problem with these, so presumably HMS won’t either.


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## AndrewOld

Crgreen said:


> 48khz was the sampling frequency for DAT which is why some older recordings use it. There are however, many recent recordings which also use it, quite a few on ECM, and I think it might be the default for DVD as many DVDs I’ve ripped use it. For some engineers, bit depth is more important and some use 44.1 or 48 (the basic frequencies of which all others are multiples) with 24 bit depth. The Dave and Blu2 don’t have a problem with these, so presumably HMS won’t either.



Sure, the issue was whether the auto sensing of the HMS will automatically lower the tap length because it thinks they are "Video".


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## AndrewOld

And does it make sense to label the button “VIDEO” when there isn’t a video input or output on the HMS? It is a lower latency setting, what would be the most succinct way of expressing that?


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## Crgreen

AndrewOld said:


> And does it make sense to label the button “VIDEO” when there isn’t a video input or output on the HMS? It is a lower latency setting, what would be the most succinct way of expressing that?



Perhaps to state the obvious, I assume that’s the button which makes the changes for video, and otherwise 48khz is treated the same way as all other sampling frequencies. I think one of the toggle switches on the Blu2 can perform a similar function although it wasn’t documented in the original manual.


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## AndrewOld

I don't think there's an issue with auto sensing, according to this post of Robs it sounds like you can have manual video mode or auto video mode:



Rob Watts said:


> You can have manual video mode (off 1M taps 0.63 S delay, white 2/3M taps 0.1S delay) or auto (48kHz input - cyan - is assumed to be video and all other sample rates is assumed to be not video - yellow)



So no worries.


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## Triode User

Crgreen said:


> Perhaps to state the obvious, I assume that’s the button which makes the changes for video, and otherwise 48khz is treated the same way as all other sampling frequencies. I think one of the toggle switches on the Blu2 can perform a similar function although it wasn’t documented in the original manual.



No, I think the point we are concerned about is that if HMS senses 48kHz it automatically changes to the 'Video' setting of 2/3M taps. If you you don't want the Video setting, the way I understand it you then have to manually set it to the full 1M taps. I am presuming that if the input then changes to say 44.1 then the next time 48 is sensed it will again set to 2/3M taps. This change might easily happen several times over a streaming session of different material. Hence the request for clarification of how the auto sensing can be controlled and how and when it resets when it has been manually overridden.


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## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> I don't think there's an issue with auto sensing, according to this post of Robs it sounds like you can have manual video mode or auto video mode:
> So no worries.



I thought I had seen something that said one couldn't turn off the autosensing /auto changing but that it could be manually set back to 1m taps setting. If HMS can effectively have the autosensing/auto change turned off  then all is well - is this the manual video mode in the Rob Watts quote?


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## AndrewOld (Jul 24, 2018)

Triode User said:


> I thought I had seen something that said one couldn't turn off the autosensing /auto changing but that it could be manually set back to 1m taps setting. If HMS can effectively have the autosensing/auto change turned off  then all is well - is this the manual video mode in the Rob Watts quote?



I think I didn’t read Robs quote carefully enough when he first made it.

I now understand it as

There are two modes, manual video mode and auto video mode.

In manual video mode you can choose between video off - 1m taps, .63sec delay, or video on, - 2/3m taps .1s delay.

In auto video mode a 48kHz inout will put video on ie low latency, and any other kHz i out will put video mode off, ie 1m taps.

So, if you have no video you would set manual video mode, and leave video off to always get the full monty taps. That way no issues with 48kHz rips or streams.
If you do have video you can decide. If you choose auto sensing you run the (small) risk of some 48kHz downloads/rips/streams not using the full 1m taps.

100 ms is still a large delay, it just might not be acceptable for some people to use an M Scaler even in video mode for video audio playback depending on how fussy you are about lip sync and what compensating delays you might have on the  video side.  And it would be pretty hopeless to play say a digital keyboard through such a long delay (unless you were an organist maybe). .1sec is about the time sound takes to travel 33 meters.

Since I only intend to play music through my HMS/DAVE I am not worried. My keyboard goes through a very low latency Focusrite Scarlett, and I have a separate AV system with a center channel and fine control over latency.


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## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> I think I didn’t read Robs quote carefully enough when he first made it.
> 
> I now understand it as
> 
> ...



Thanks for employing some brain cells. That all seems sensible and thought through to be user convenient.


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## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> Thanks for employing some brain cells. That all seems sensible and thought through to be user convenient.



Since 100ms is a long time, it might be smarter to use one of the other inputs on your DAVE/TT2 for video anyway.


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## seaice (Jul 24, 2018)

Is the delay always the same or variable?

There is as possible solution for a constant delay: You can set 1M taps and try to delay the picture part of the video in your video player by the delay caused by the 1M taps setting and have a perfect lipsync then... I am not sure how I will achieve this in my video players but it is definitely something to consider...


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## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> Since 100ms is a long time, it might be smarter to use one of the other inputs on your DAVE/TT2 for video anyway.



The whole point is that the room where I will use HMS is that it does not have video and never will have so I wanted an easy way of avoiding accidentally ending up with 2/3M taps every time a 48k stream was played.

I agree though about your suggestion though. In the other room with my telly I just have an optical lead into Dave which is fine for the amount of TV I watch. That also took away any issue of trying to get the telly audio into Blu2.


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## AndrewOld

seaice said:


> Is the delay always the same or variable?
> 
> There is as possible solution for a constant delay: You can set 1M taps and try to delay the picture part of the video in your video player by the delay caused by the 1M taps setting and have a perfect lipsync then... I am not sure how I will achieve this in my video players but it is definitely something to consider...



I think some DVD/Blu-Ray players have negative lip sync. JRiver Media Center does too. But that won’t help you with Netflix. To some extent the issue depends on your screen - some have a lot of video delay, which is why it is often necessary to delay audio be some tens of milliseconds. But the kazillion taps of the Chord DACs delay audio far too much. 

I suppose if you watch opera and imagine you were sitting well back in the stalls, the delay would be just about right!


----------



## Rob Watts

Triode User said:


> For me, the autosensing assumption of 48kHz being video is not helpful. I have a dab radio for when the broadband gets flakey (which it often does here in our remote village) and I will not be helped by autoswitching to 2/3M taps when 48kHz is detected. You might say that it can be manually switched to 1M taps but that is a pain. I suppose I will have to bow to the greater good if video is deemed to be an important feature for the market but I just wanted to put in my 2p worth if I have correctly understood the input and autosensing arrangement.



This issue was answered by:



AndrewOld said:


> I think I didn’t read Robs quote carefully enough when he first made it.
> 
> I now understand it as
> 
> ...



So you can have your cake and eat it. I have a few audio tracks that are 48k, but the sheer convenience of not having to press the button when I watch you tube wins it for me.



AndrewOld said:


> Since 100ms is a long time, it might be smarter to use one of the other inputs on your DAVE/TT2 for video anyway.


 
My experience is that projectors and quality TV's have enough delay (image processing for frame interpolation) so that 100mS is ok - but you need to set your audio delay to 0. The brain can cope with a tiny audio delay, but has problems when audio is before the video.


----------



## Triode User

Rob Watts said:


> This issue was answered by:
> So you can have your cake and eat it. I have a few audio tracks that are 48k, but the sheer convenience of not having to press the button when I watch you tube wins it for me.
> My experience is that projectors and quality TV's have enough delay (image processing for frame interpolation) so that 100mS is ok - but you need to set your audio delay to 0. The brain can cope with a tiny audio delay, but has problems when audio is before the video.



Yes, thanks, I was getting in a stew about nothing. Thank heavens that someone (AndrewOld) actually pays attention to what you say!


----------



## AndrewOld (Jul 24, 2018)

Here is a youtube video that helps you get the right delay



According to this report of some media standards committee, “the sound program should never lead the video program by more than 15ms and should never lag the video program by more than 45ms ±15ms“

https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1273833


----------



## AndrewOld

Talking of 48kHz, just happened to stream Laid Black by Marcus Miller from Qobuz. 24bit/48kHz it is, and virtuosically melodic intelligent bass playing too.


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> Talking of 48kHz, just happened to stream Laid Black by Marcus Miller from Qobuz. 24bit/48kHz it is, and virtuosically melodic intelligent bass playing too.



Well done for finding that. It’s a really good album. I bought the high res version off Qobuz a few weeks ago. Turn up the volume until you can feel the bass notes in the pit of your stomach! I looked at the volume on Dave one night after playing track one and I had it at -16dB into the Pass Labs monos.  It was lovely.


----------



## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> Well done for finding that. It’s a really good album. I bought the high res version off Qobuz a few weeks ago. Turn up the volume until you can feel the bass notes in the pit of your stomach! I looked at the volume on Dave one night after playing track one and I had it at -16dB into the Pass Labs monos.  It was lovely.



I’ve seen him a couple or three times live. When he played Tutu my brain fell out.  Wonderful musician, so creative and intelligent. I used to listen to M2 a lot,  and Tales.  And you’re right, good to listen to at visceral levels.


----------



## musickid

The Ozell Tapes live by Miller rock too.


----------



## WilliamWykeham

Well, wound up selling my DAVE and buying a Qutest to free up some funds for a vpi Classic turntable (and the Vessel cartridge).  With DAVE I was listening almost exclusively to classical music; I think this was because it revealed the problems with most modern pop masters, an assertion I didn't really buy into until owning a DAVE.  Many pop albums that sound decent enough through my iphone or in my car were pretty unpleasant through my BluDave.  I found using an external amp with these poor masters helped somewhat.

So I got my BluQutest set up last night and did some AB testing with a few records. Everything But The Girl's Idlewild, which I think has a decent digital master, sounded great both on vinyl and through the BluQutest, each format having its own strengths. Then I put on the White Stripe's Elephant and couldn't last 5 seconds listening to digital, it was so obviously an in-your-face master compared to the vinyl, which was far, far superior. 

Will come back to DAVE one day as I do notice a loss in transparency with classical when playing through an external amp, in my case ifi ican pro.


----------



## dakabali

Trying to understand the relationship between the Mscaler, DAVE and the (future) DX digital amplifer. I have browsed through some forums and managed to find the following post from Rob Watts in the Qutest Official Thread (page 9):


> I am somewhat surprised by the confusion on the DX amps.
> So if you want to connect to a conventional linear power amp, use Qutest.
> For power levels of 1W/8 use Hugo 2.
> 2W, use Dave.
> ...



As I understand now: one should buy a Hugo2 or DAVE for a headphone or near-field speaker setup where the excellent SQ provided by the Chord DACs could be achieved without the need for power amp. Others with H2/DAVE who would like to enjoy loud music have two options: either take any existing power amp of their choice and accept the "compromized" SQ or wait for the DX amplifier (Certainly there are very good power amps on the market to get excellent results with the DAVE but I'm talking about the special SQ which some of you enjoy using the headphone output of the DAVE or by utilizing sensitive and fast loudspeakers). 

Considering the Mscaler and the DX amplifier, the DAVE would remain only a rather expensive preamp in the chain. And that makes it not future prove at all for Blu2 owners, does it? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Cheers.


----------



## musickid

Not just a preamp but a digital preamp with the ability to feed a dx signal into the dx amp. A normal preamp would not have dx signal capability only volume and 1st stage amplification.


----------



## dakabali (Jul 29, 2018)

musickid said:


> Not just a preamp but a digital preamp with the ability to feed a dx signal into the dx amp. A normal preamp would not have dx signal capability only volume and 1st stage amplification.


Thanks @musickid. What is so special about the DX signal to keep DAVE just as a digital preamp? According to this statement it is actually an extended regular 705/768 kHz signal:


> The only difference between Dave's DX output (that is the digital OP to connect to a DX power pulse array amp) and a regular 705/768 kHz signal, is the DX has volume control information embedded in the user data. So when Dave is used with a DX power amp then Dave becomes a DX pre-amp, as it controls the volume.



If the volume control is no must have (e.g. it can be done with software) a direct connection between the blu2 and the DX amp would deliver the same quality, wouldn't it? Thanks.


----------



## Triode User

dakabali said:


> If the volume control is no must have (e.g. it can be done with software) a direct connection between the blu2 and the DX amp would deliver the same quality, wouldn't it? Thanks.



I don’t think that Blu2 can output DX volume control so with a Blu2 one would need a Dave or possibly instead a version of the DX amp that has volume control built in. However, the HMS can output DX volume control and so this can go direct to the DX amp without any intermediate device. 

Please note that this is only what I think and my work will need to be marked by the teacher (aka RW) before it has any validity.


----------



## dakabali (Jul 29, 2018)

Triode User said:


> I don’t think that Blu2 can output DX volume control so with a Blu2 one would need a Dave or possibly instead a version of the DX amp that has volume control built in. However, the HMS can output DX volume control and so this can go direct to the DX amp without any intermediate device.
> 
> Please note that this is only what I think and my work will need to be marked by the teacher (aka RW) before it has any validity.


I think you are right and it is a valid scenario that Blu2 sends "only" a regular 705/768 kHz signal without the necessary volume control info. Anyway, in this scenario DAVE would be the most expensive *volume control button* in the hifi history 

Based on all these assuptions I think that DAVE is an excellent future prove device for all who use it with headphones and/or near-field.


----------



## Triode User

dakabali said:


> I think you are right and it is a valid scenario that Blu2 sends "only" a regular 705/768 kHz signal without the necessary volume control info. Anyway, in this scenario DAVE would be the most expensive *volume control button* in the hifi history
> 
> Based on all these assuptions I think that DAVE is an excellent future prove device for all who use it with headphones and/or near-field.



Dave is also STUNNING with analogue power amplifiers. I think one would struggle to find better and I am very very happy with the sound that I get with my mono power amps fed direct from Dave. There is a role in this house for Dave to do that for many more years to come.


----------



## dakabali (Jul 29, 2018)

Triode User said:


> Dave is also STUNNING with analogue power amplifiers. I think one would struggle to find better and I am very very happy with the sound that I get with my mono power amps fed direct from Dave. There is a role in this house for Dave to do that for many more years to come.


I agree. As I mentioned in my original post it's all about how to reproduce the same magical SQ some of us experience near-field - in a poweramp environment with the future DX digital DAC/amp. With special focus on the role DAVE might play in this (future) environment.


----------



## musickid

I think regarding dave my instinct tells me there is more to it than merely imbedded volume adjustment with dx signal out.


----------



## dakabali (Jul 29, 2018)

musickid said:


> I think regarding dave my instinct tells me there is more to it than merely imbedded volume adjustment with dx signal out.


Well I know it's all about speculation but at least the quote from RW seems to clearly position the Chord DACs according to different amp user segments:

users of traditional power amps should take the Qutest in order to get a taste of the Chord magic
users of the Hugo2 should (but need not) use it as a 1W amp. For more power AND the full Chord magic these users must wait for the future DX digital *integrated amp*
users of the DAVE should (but need not) use it as a 2W amp. For more power AND the full Chord magic these users must wait for the future DX digital *power amp*
My instinct tells me to agree with @musickid 's instinct: I can imagine there will be a DX digital (power?) amp version which include a full DAVE (and maybe an Mscaler?!) and an other version that only implements the powered version of the last (DAC) stage of DAVE - and would be a significantly cheaper solution specifically for existing DAVE owners.


----------



## HeeBroG

dakabali said:


> Well I know it's all about speculation but at least the quote from RW seems to clearly position the Chord DACs according to different amp user segments:
> 
> users of traditional power amps should take the Qutest in order to get a taste of the Chord magic
> users of the Hugo2 should (but need not) use it as a 1W amp. For more power AND the full Chord magic these users must wait for the future DX digital *integrated amp*
> ...



As I understand it, the HTT2 has surpassed DAVE for near field use in some respects due to its 10W output. Coupled with HMS this would be a dream setup for HP/Nearfield without the need for the DX amps and additional cabling.


----------



## audio_1

I wonder will there be 10 element and 20 element pulse array amplifiers and also which will be released first? I have just got a pair of Shure SE846 headphones for my Mojo. I have tried them with the Dave and Blu2. It is amazing how transparent the Dave headphone output is. My current analog amplification and my loudspeakers come no where close. I am looking forward to the DX amplifier equivalent to the Dave.


----------



## elviscaprice

Or you could just get some efficient speakers, now, and be in heaven with DAVE driving them directly.


----------



## dakabali

elviscaprice said:


> Or you could just get some efficient speakers, now, and be in heaven with DAVE driving them directly.


I am in contact with Louis to order a custom Omega SAM 6 XRS. Do you thing the Omegas are first of all near-field or could deliver their excellent SQ also with a poweramp? I think a future 20W DX poweramp/DAC could even increase their performance (and make them sound louder, too) with DAVE.


----------



## AndrewOld

My DAVE is quite happy driving active speakers, and I am quite happy too.


----------



## elviscaprice (Jul 30, 2018)

dakabali said:


> I am in contact with Louis to order a custom Omega SAM 6 XRS. Do you thing the Omegas are first of all near-field or could deliver their excellent SQ also with a poweramp? I think a future 20W DX poweramp/DAC could even increase their performance (and make them sound louder, too) with DAVE.



Those Omegas can be driven best with DAVE alone, no power amp.  You will get the best resolution doing so.  Any other component added will be a compromise of that resolution, often in no small manner.  Future Chord DX amps will be the exception at no loss of resolution,.  I get all the volume I need with DAVE in nearfield or small to medium size room (need sub).
Regardless your going to eventually want a sub with any of those Omega speakers.  I think a REL goes very well with the Omegas.


----------



## tunes

tunes said:


> Just noticed a red light projected from the top of the DAVE.  Does anyone know what this signifies?  I can only find time sadly to listen to music on weekends and have been turning DAVE off during the week and leaving in standby mode all weekend.  Would it hurt just to leave on 24-7 and is there any significant energy waste in doing so??
> 
> Thanks


----------



## tunes

CHORD DAVE with KGSSHV Carbon and Stax SR009 vs direct driven Utopia/HEKV2

Has anyone Compared the Stax amplifier system above and Dave with direct DAVE  to the Planar magnetic earphones?


----------



## simorag

*Re: Using an external headphone amp with the DAVE and Abyss Phi*



_Background_

When I got the DAVE, I was a bit concerned about its capability to drive my Abyss Phi headphones. At the time, I had the Audio GD NOS11 DAC/amp, which has a very powerful amplifier section (about 8W at 50Ohm), so I thought that if I was not satisfied with the DAVE amp I still could use the NOS11.

I was very happy when I noticed that the DAVE direct could make the Abyss sing as easily as the NOS11 amp, with much better transparency and speed.

I tried some explosive tracks, such as the Tchaikovsky Ouverture 1812 (those cannons!) or the Grieg’s funeral march for Rikard Nordraak (very violent tympani attack at about 1:00 on the Reference Recordings version), and some organ music for the lowest registers, and the DAVE coped well to the much more powerful NOS11 amp in terms of impact and extension, while meeting my usual loudness demands.

Based on this, I decided do sell the NOS11 and go straight from DAVE to the Abyss for the next future.



_That audiophile itch ..._

I am enjoying the DAVE + Abyss combo very much since several months now, and I could very happily have lived with it as my endgame set-up.

But (of course, there was a “but” coming), occasionally I was feeling that I was not getting the very last drop of juice out of my music. I like to listen to classical – actually that’s most of my listening – and other acoustic music to realistic loudness levels (i.e. those I experience at the live event), and, especially when the recording level is low (which happens often on classical recordings to allow headroom for 20-25dB dynamic range) I was a bit let down by some lack of dynamics and a slight flatness of presentation.

It was not only a matter of SPL, but also / mostly about the visceral impact of abrupt dynamic changes.

Also, bass extension is extremely good with Abyss + DAVE, but the very last octave (40-20Hz) was a tiny bit rolled off in some cases and less physically involving compared to live feeling, while still being the best I heard from a headphone system.



_Scratching that itch is expensive ..._

I was not sure this was due to the amp, or to the Abyss or to my hearing sensitivity or tastes, but anyway I decided to try again an external amp with the DAVE, and this time I decided to go with the most synergistic approach I could figure out (and afford) by choosing the Eleven XI Audio Formula S amp + Powerman external power supply, i.e. a combo which was allegedly developed to fully exploit the AB 1266 headphone potential.

During my money-back return period, I half hoped that the XI Audio gear did not make a significant difference to save my pennies for something else (non-audio related), but ... well, if you’re a member of the (audiophile) “lunatic fringe” (cit.) you already know how this ended up 






_DAVE direct vs. Formula S + Powerman_

I started playing high-dynamics classical music, namely the tracks mentioned above, plus some symphonies from Beethoven and Mahler, and a few romantic piano sonatas with challenging dynamics transients.

Not only both visceral impact of extreme dynamics transient and sub-bass response improved, but the overall sound presentation acquired more breadth, spaciousness and soundstage size.

While no specific coloration has been added, the whole musical spectrum appears slightly warmer / darker and richer of harmonics (especially at medium-to-high volume), musically complex passages played at lifelike levels (think orchestral fortissimos) keep openness, composure, readability and texture, instead of becoming slightly congested / compressed.

Organ tracks become literally skull rattling, and I can feel the air displacement from the lower frequencies or from sharp transients (double bass attack) coming from the Abyss drivers at full.

Switching to more relaxed and quieter genres like baroque or small jazz combos, or acoustic / vocal tracks changes the scenario to a much more mixed feeling.

With the Formula S I get this slightly thicker and more open presentation, and the tonality of the woods is a bit sweeter (less strident) and more fleshed out, but the sheer transparency, depth of field and detail retrieval of the direct DAVE drive is unmatched.

Room reverberations, ambience effects, minute background noises, very delicate details like the breathing of a singer or even he/she moving or licking his/her lips are better captured by the DAVE and the shivers I get from these cues are just more intense.

The pristine transparency you get from DAVE directly is somewhat veiled with the Formula S, but to notice this I had to do repeated A/B tests on specific tracks, and I still would rate the DAVE + Formula S as utterly transparent as a combo.

Double bass attack, physical impact and decay, deeply descending scales of electric bass, drums solos are just amazing with the Formula S in the chain.

Classic rock (Dire Straits, Pink Floyd, Springsteen, Led Zeppelin, Police, ...) is also more satisfying via the amp thanks to its slightly more forgiving nature, and the additional fleshy tonality and bass oomph, and so are the occasional pop / EDM tracks I tried (U2, Depeche Mode, Daft Punk, ...) especially when played LOUD.



_So, was adding that amp to the Abyss worth?_

There is no 2-letter answer to answer to this question, I am afraid.

To me, adding an external amp to the DAVE when driving the Abyss Phi, is most certainly not “necessary” and I can see myself coming back to DAVE alone depending on mood, listening volume, music type.

That said, for some music genres like large symphonic works, tumultuous piano pieces and generally explosive dynamic compositions / passages, and in certain areas of the spectrum (e.g. the deepest bass frequency) the uplift of my music enjoyment from the Formula S is really significant.

Since I am intoxicated by the physical, emotional and intellectual (?) experience my Abyss headphones are able to provide, I have decided to do what I can in order to make them perform at best in every possible musical context, so I am happy to complement the DAVE with the XI Audio gear.

Of course, I feel I am well into the diminishing return here, and you may get much better value for (this kind of) money by upgrading other components of your rig - or spending in a nice vacation in Hawaii, or buying CDs or going to live concerts for the next few years, for that matter.

Just as a final word of caution, I have found that you may also make the DAVE sound definitely worse by adding an amp, so not any powerful and / or well-reviewed amp is going to be worth, and synergy and subjective taste are key factors, as usual.

Sorry for the lengthy post, hope it is helpful for somebody ... also, I would be very interested in others' experience when pairing the DAVE with an external amp to drive demanding HP’s!


----------



## EndGameSearch

simorag said:


> *Re: Using an external headphone amp with the DAVE and Abyss Phi*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great post!   This is the kind of post I enjoy the most.  I'm working my way through a similar process to find the right balance of benefit vs potential loss in transparency to power Susvara.  I'll receive a Wells Milo Reference amp tomorrow as a potential stepping stone to Wells Headtrip, but your amp is among the potential contenders I've been looking at.  There was a recent review on Audiobacon that lines up with your impressions.  As much as I love BluDave and all of the transparency it brings to the table, it is possible to add an amp that adds value to the overall equation.  I'm finding I enjoy other qualities as much as transparency in the end and do not need to stay so narrowly focused.

https://audiobacon.net/2018/07/04/eleven-xi-audio-formula-s-headphone-amplifier-and-powerman-review/


----------



## x RELIC x

simorag said:


> *Re: Using an external headphone amp with the DAVE and Abyss Phi*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fantastic post backed up with impressions and details. It’s refreshing to read a perspective in this manner and not just a one liner saying something is ‘better’. 

Well done!


----------



## elviscaprice (Jul 31, 2018)

True, BUT,
It could also be that the source initiated stream is the culprit and all that the op is doing is coloring the sound to make up for that deficiency.  Thus that long time committed thread is explained away with a one liner.  Which only begets the question, Why get caught up in creating a long exhausting post??

Prediction, Hugo m-scaler will make a far bigger difference.


----------



## jlbrach

concerning the susvara an amp is an absolute must...the abyss is a subjective thing.....personally i have gone back to using an amp more often than not...i have gone through several amps looking for the best relatively affordable amp alternative....the eleven is definitely one of them although I have not heard it i have read good things about it.....this argument has gone on back and forth for years and will until chord introduces the long awaited transparent digital amps


----------



## Jozurr

Do you guys think the Mscaler+hugo2 will end up sounding better than just the DAVE?


----------



## Hifi Boy

Jozurr said:


> Do you guys think the Mscaler+hugo2 will end up sounding better than just the DAVE?


Maybe I got something wrong, but isn't it now the case that even Mscaler+TT2 is better then Blu2+ Dave?

I mean, Rob said that Mscaler doesn't need ferrites so it sounds better by default, and TT2 is supposed to have a more powerful output than Dave. This in turn also implies that even Mscaler+TT2 is better than Mscaler+ Dave.

Now, does anyone care to point out what I forgot to include into this equation, because if this is true, I see no reason why anyone would buy Dave anymore?


----------



## AndrewOld

Hifi Boy said:


> Maybe I got something wrong, but isn't it now the case that even Mscaler+TT2 is better then Blu2+ Dave?
> 
> I mean, Rob said that Mscaler doesn't need ferrites so it sounds better by default, and TT2 is supposed to have a more powerful output than Dave. This in turn also implies that even Mscaler+TT2 is better than Mscaler+ Dave.
> 
> Now, does anyone care to point out what I forgot to include into this equation, because if this is true, I see no reason why anyone would buy Dave anymore?



DAVE has a better DAC section than the TT2. The higher output of the TT2 is irrelevant for anyone driving a power amp or active speakers as it is way more than required to drive amplifiers of normal sensitivity into clipping.


----------



## x RELIC x

Hifi Boy said:


> Maybe I got something wrong, but isn't it now the case that even Mscaler+TT2 is better then Blu2+ Dave?
> 
> I mean, Rob said that Mscaler doesn't need ferrites so it sounds better by default, and TT2 is supposed to have a more powerful output than Dave. This in turn also implies that even Mscaler+TT2 is better than Mscaler+ Dave.
> 
> Now, does anyone care to point out what I forgot to include into this equation, because if this is true, I see no reason why anyone would buy Dave anymore?



Well, the ferrites have been said to be a very small part of the icing on the cake and may have been overblown by quite a bit.

As for the power from the TT2, unless using efficient speakers or one of a few _very_ difficult to drive headphones then the extra power is not a concern. Rob has maintained that the DAVE is still the top of the pile when it comes to his DACs. I would surmise that for 99.99% of the time the Mscaler+DAVE would the ‘better’ choice.


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> DAVE has a better DAC section than the TT2. The higher output of the TT2 is irrelevant for anyone driving a power amp or active speakers as it is way more than required to drive amplifiers of normal sensitivity into clipping.



Seconded, Dave is still the best DAC. Full stop.

TT2 is only better for some if they are willing to forego Dave's better transparency in order to get the extra power.


----------



## Amberlamps

You people are putting me off my purchase of TT2 and MScaler.

Please stop, as I haven’t got another £1000 to buy Dave instead.


----------



## x RELIC x

Phuca said:


> You people are putting me off my purchase of TT2 and MScaler.
> 
> Please stop, as I haven’t got another £1000 to buy Dave instead.



If getting the combo of TT2+Mscaler I would think you wouldn’t be missing DAVE _alone_ too much at all.


----------



## Amberlamps (Aug 1, 2018)

x RELIC x said:


> If getting the combo of TT2+Mscaler I would think you wouldn’t be missing DAVE _alone_ too much at all.



I hope so, some threads/posts say Dave is still King, others that say TT2+MScaler will be the better setup.

I just hope I have made the correct buying decision.

When I see posts that say Dave is still the boss, I think I should of got that instead, ( If I am honest, my hearing would probably not hear the difference between both setups) But then I think, Dave is just 1k more, and have I made the right decision.

Ahwell, time will tell.


----------



## AndrewOld (Aug 1, 2018)

The issue the the M Scaler brings to the party, both for the TT2 and the DAVE, is that it renders a good part of both of them redundant and unused. All the upsampling FPGA magic, all the inputs except BNC, become effectively redundant.

Long term though, perhaps the M Scaler opens up the possibility of a better DAC than the DAVE without upsampling, that will only work with the M Scaler, in a TT2 box. Maybe.

And btw does anyone know how the remote control will work? Do you need one remote control to change inputs on the M Scaler and another to change volume on the DAVE or TT2?


----------



## x RELIC x

Phuca said:


> I hope so, some threads/posts say Dave is still King, others that say TT2+MScaler will be the better setup.
> 
> I just hope I have made the correct buying decision.
> 
> ...



The previous question was TT2+Mscaler vs DAVE+Mscaler. In that case the DAVE+Mscaler would still be boss. You asked DAVE alone vs TT2+Mscaler and for that comparison I would feel confident in your preorder.


----------



## Amberlamps

x RELIC x said:


> The previous question was TT2+Mscaler vs DAVE+Mscaler. In that case the DAVE+Mscaler would still be boss. You asked DAVE alone vs TT2+Mscaler and for that comparison I would feel confident in your preorder.



Yeah, no way could I afford dave and the mscaler.

I will no doubt love what I have ordered.


----------



## Amberlamps

AndrewOld said:


> The issue the the M Scaler brings to the party, both for the TT2 and the DAVE, is that it renders a good part of both of them redundant and unused. All the upsampling FPGA magic, all the inputs except BNC, become effectively redundant.
> 
> Long term though, perhaps the M Scaler opens up the possibility of a better DAC than the DAVE without upsampling, that will only work with the M Scaler, in a TT2 box. Maybe.
> 
> And btw does anyone know how the remote control will work? Do you need one remote control to change inputs on the M Scaler and another to change volume on the DAVE or TT2?



I think, the next dave/ina will have it inside, possibly 2 million taps ?

TT3 with mscaler inside ? Chord are savy, they will probably only put an mscaler in dave 2 or davina, big money and since they are a business and no doubt will act accordingly, tt3 probably wont have an mscaler inside.


----------



## dakabali

Phuca said:


> You people are putting me off my purchase of TT2 and MScaler.
> 
> Please stop, as I haven’t got another £1000 to buy Dave instead.


Just to make it more difficult for you: I LOVE my Blu2 as the CD playback combined with the mscaler function still produces the best SQ I have ever experienced.


----------



## EndGameSearch

Phuca said:


> You people are putting me off my purchase of TT2 and MScaler.
> 
> Please stop, as I haven’t got another £1000 to buy Dave instead.


This excellent review is still relevant in approach if you substitute TT2 for Hugo 2, and it could be helpful explaining the technology.

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-blu-mk-ii-digital-cd-transport.22848/reviews

To summarize, on it's own, DAVE is still the best Chord DAC.  Any Chord DAC + Blu2 or m-scaler will be superior to DAVE alone.  So TT2+m-scaler > Dave but BluDave or mScalerDave is still top dog.  The unproven result I'm anxious to see is DAVE + Blu2 vs DAVE + m-scaler.  The latter should be the new top dog by a hair.  If you have properly addressed RF/ground plane "issues" on BluDave it should be a level playing  field again.


----------



## Amberlamps

dakabali said:


> Just to make it more difficult for you: I LOVE my Blu2 as the CD playback combined with the mscaler function still produces the best SQ I have ever experienced.



I don’t have much CD’s now, most of my library is stored on Harddrives. It’s been years since I have had to use a CD, I think the last time was when I installed windows 7.  



EndGameSearch said:


> This excellent review is still relevant in approach if you substitute TT2 for Hugo 2, and it could be helpful explaining the technology.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-blu-mk-ii-digital-cd-transport.22848/reviews
> 
> To summarize, on it's own, DAVE is still the best Chord DAC.  Any Chord DAC + Blu2 or m-scaler will be superior to DAVE alone.  So TT2+m-scaler > Dave but BluDave or mScalerDave is still top dog.  The unproven result I'm anxious to see is DAVE + Blu2 vs DAVE + m-scaler.  The latter should be the new top dog by a hair.  If you have properly addressed RF/ground plane "issues" on BluDave it should be a level playing  field again.



I just read that link.

I have Hugo 2, when I bought it I was weighing up the pro’s and con’s of H2 or HTT as I was originally needing a desktop dac.

If Dave came with an Mscaler, I would of grabbed that instead of TT2 and MS. I would of found that extra £1000, had dave+ms been priced at £8500.

I will cherish my new toys and treat them like they were a faberge egg.


----------



## delirium

Where has the dave tred gone?


----------



## rgs9200m (Aug 1, 2018)

I bet if you go with TT2 + HMS, down the line you will be trading the TT for a DAVE and paying more overall in the long run. So cut your long term losses and just go for what goes for a permanent solution in this business.
Thrashing/trading is what really ends up costing a lot in audio. Nothing is cheaper than being settled and happy with what you started out with.

*tl/dr; *just get the DAVE and Mscaler and keep it for 20 years and you'll spend a lot less in the long run.

*moral of the story*: buy and hold. (Same goes for cars and maybe even stocks, but that's way off-topic, so please don't respond to this last comment.)


----------



## elviscaprice (Aug 1, 2018)

You are cruel playing into this persons audio nervosa. 

TT2/mscaler or DAVE/mscaler, either will be just fine.  If driving speakers or hard driven headphones direct you may consider more so the TT2/mscaler.  But the good thing about DAVE is that it is available now, whereas the TT2, who knows???


----------



## AndrewOld (Aug 1, 2018)

rgs9200m said:


> I bet if go with TT2 + HMS, down the line you will be trading the TT for a DAVE and paying more overall in the long run. So cut your long term losses and just go for what goes for a permanent solution in this business.
> Thrashing/trading is what really ends up costing a lot in audio. Nothing is cheaper than being settled and happy with what you started out with.
> 
> *tl/dr; *just get the DAVE and Mscaler and keep it for 20 years and you'll spend a lot less in the long run.
> ...



One possibility: Buy DAVE now and put down deposit for M Scaler. Gouge good price out of dealer for DAVE.  M Scaler will take longer than Chord say - new products always do - so you’ll have time to save up the cash for the M Scaler while you enjoy your DAVE. If you wait for TT2 and M Scaler you won’t have anything nice to listen to meantime, you’ll probably have to wait until Christmas at least, and when they finally appear you’ll want the DAVE anyway.


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> One possibility: Buy DAVE now and put down deposit for M Scaler. Gouge good price out of dealer for DAVE.  M Scaler will take longer than Chord say - new products always do - so you’ll have time to save up the cash for the M Scaler while you enjoy your DAVE. If you wait for TT2 and M Scaler you won’t have anything nice to listen to meantime, you’ll probably have to wait until Christmas at least, and when they finally appear you’ll want the DAVE anyway.



Option two. Buy a second hand but still perfect Dave and get an even better bargain.


----------



## musickid (Aug 2, 2018)

I have 4K saved i'm not collecting gold eggs. I'm at a crossroads so the future is looking bright but not financially secure yet. I would value a dave above all else because i know in this pursuit you will always trade up to achieve a dave/mscaler. If i buy a TT2 and say by christmas i could add a scaler i would then trade in both for a new dave it's inevitable. Ultimately i just want to enjoy and relax streaming from roon and other sources. So do i get a TT2 paired with my OPPO PM1 and chill and not worry too much about what if. Do i push a little now and get a used dave (my preferred solution but handing over 5k on ebay seems horrendous and i have no one to help me here) or what about H2/Scaler. Now this is the most easily attainable but it doesn't seem complete as a unit. Battery powering the H2 into a scaler and oogling over the TT2 with scaler with a little extra push seems an awesome combo. However this reverts back to the original dilemma above. I also believe that the scaler was tuned for TT2 just check the form factor.

Finally why not a H2 with a state of the art headphone like utopia (even though i find it exceedingly hard to find cans that offer me comfort akin to clouds at 36,000 feet) and say goodbye to the scaler/upgrades and everything else. My oppo pm1 offers supreme comfort for a planar but could i do better. I could just add a sony mdr z1r to my mojo which has been described as a little beauty the mojo that is. So do nothing and embark on a journey into Europe and put my audiophile cravings to one side for now (now that would be a shame after 2 years on headfi which helped propel me into academic success) or......it seems a used dave would really satisfy me and worry about the scaler later but then handing over 5K on ebay seems horrendous. Just some thoughts...not all of us have a stash of faberge eggs..can do TT2 on its own now...cost no object mindset..lol


----------



## Deftone

musickid said:


> I have 4k saved i'm not collecting gold eggs. I'm at a crossroads so the future is looking bright but not financially secure yet. I would value a dave above all else because i know in this pursuit you will always trade up to achieve a dave/mscaler. If i buy a TT2 and say by christmas i could add a scaler i would then trade in both for a new dave it's inevitable. Ultimately i just want to enjoy and relax streaming from roon and other sources. So do i get a TT2 paired with my OPPO PM1 and chill and not worry too much about what if. Do i push a little now and get a used dave (my preferred solution but handing over 5k on ebay seems horrendous and i have no one to help me here) or what about H2/Scaler. Now this is the most easily attainable but it doesn't seem complete as a unit. Battery powering the H2 into a scaler and oogling over the TT2 with scaler with a little extra push seems an awesome combo. However this reverts back to the original dilemma above. I also believe that the scaler was tuned for TT2 just check the form factor.
> 
> Finally why not a H2 with a state of the art headphone like utopia (even though i find it exceedingly hard to find cans that offer me comfort akin to clouds at 36,000 feet) and say goodbye to the scaler/upgrades and everything else. My oppo pm1 offers supreme comfort for a planar but could i do better. I could just add a sony mdr z1r to my mojo which has been described as a little beauty. So do nothing and embark on a journey into eastern Europe in search of pale faced rusky beauties putting my audiophile cravings to one side for now (now that would be a shame after 2 years on headfi which helped propel me into academic success) or......it seems a used dave would really satisfy me and worry about the scaler later but then handing over 5k on ebay horrendous. Just some thoughts...not all of us has a stash of faberge eggs..can do TT2 on its own now...no cost no object mindset..lol



If i was you man i would drop the 4K on a TT2 pre order now then save more money to get M-Scaler later in the year or next year. You may be convinced DAVE is your endgame now but in a few years when R.Watts drops the successor to DAVE, everyone in the Chord threads will be dripping wet.


----------



## AndrewOld

musickid said:


> I have 4K saved i'm not collecting gold eggs. I'm at a crossroads so the future is looking bright but not financially secure yet. I would value a dave above all else because i know in this pursuit you will always trade up to achieve a dave/mscaler. If i buy a TT2 and say by christmas i could add a scaler i would then trade in both for a new dave it's inevitable. Ultimately i just want to enjoy and relax streaming from roon and other sources. So do i get a TT2 paired with my OPPO PM1 and chill and not worry too much about what if. Do i push a little now and get a used dave (my preferred solution but handing over 5k on ebay seems horrendous and i have no one to help me here) or what about H2/Scaler. Now this is the most easily attainable but it doesn't seem complete as a unit. Battery powering the H2 into a scaler and oogling over the TT2 with scaler with a little extra push seems an awesome combo. However this reverts back to the original dilemma above. I also believe that the scaler was tuned for TT2 just check the form factor.
> 
> Finally why not a H2 with a state of the art headphone like utopia (even though i find it exceedingly hard to find cans that offer me comfort akin to clouds at 36,000 feet) and say goodbye to the scaler/upgrades and everything else. My oppo pm1 offers supreme comfort for a planar but could i do better. I could just add a sony mdr z1r to my mojo which has been described as a little beauty the mojo that is. So do nothing and embark on a journey into Europe and put my audiophile cravings to one side for now (now that would be a shame after 2 years on headfi which helped propel me into academic success) or......it seems a used dave would really satisfy me and worry about the scaler later but then handing over 5K on ebay seems horrendous. Just some thoughts...not all of us have a stash of faberge eggs..can do TT2 on its own now...cost no object mindset..lol



Come to Europe with your mojo.


----------



## tunes (Aug 2, 2018)

AndrewOld said:


> Come to Europe with your mojo.


Confused.

Has CHORD announced Blu2 without CD transport?  Is that what is referred to a M scaler?  What will be the cost diffference bet Blu2 and M scaler??  Projected time for availability?


----------



## AndrewOld

tunes said:


> Confused.
> 
> Has CHORD announced Blu2 without CD transport?  Is that what is referred to a M scaler?  What will be the cost diffference bet Blu2 and M scaler??  Projected time for availability?



Yes. Stand-alone M Scaler was announced recently. £3,500. Availability “Autumn”. 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hugo-m-scaler-by-chord-electronics-the-official-thread.885042/


----------



## Hifi Boy

@ everyone

I knew there was a catch somewhere! So the ultimate experience should now be Mscaler + Dave.


----------



## Triode User (Aug 2, 2018)

Hifi Boy said:


> @ everyone
> 
> I knew there was a catch somewhere! So the ultimate experience should now be Mscaler + Dave.



Well, actually, Rob Watts says that all the reports he has seen say that the CD player in the Blu Mk2 is superior to any dedicated server in terms of sound quality. 

So the ultimate experience is still Blu Mk2 MScaler + Dave.



Rob Watts said:


> The benefit that the Blu 2 has is being able to play CD's; and all the reports I have seen is that CD replay using the Blu 2 is better than a dedicated server; and the reason for this is the much lower power dissipation and overall lower RF noise as the internal clock speeds of a CD mech is very low, and it's low power too. Many use the CD as a way of calibrating their source.


----------



## Crgreen

Triode User said:


> Well, actually, Rob Watts says that all the reports he has seen say that the CD player in the Blu Mk2 is superior to any dedicated server in terms of sound quality.
> 
> So the ultimate experience is still Blu Mk2 MScaler + Dave.



Interesting. To my ear CD on the Blu2 remains the benchmark, and although I’m no expert I’ve a suspicion that low noise (RF and power supply) plays a big part. It seems that it is possible to address those issues in a server, but presently at very considerable expense, unless you have the know-how, time and patience to build one yourself. I don’t.


----------



## Hifi Boy

Triode User said:


> Well, actually, Rob Watts says that all the reports he has seen say that the CD player in the Blu Mk2 is superior to any dedicated server in terms of sound quality.
> 
> So the ultimate experience is still Blu Mk2 MScaler + Dave.


Yes, agree on that, except that I don't use CDs, so for me it's Mscaler+ Dave.


----------



## AndrewOld

Crgreen said:


> Interesting. To my ear CD on the Blu2 remains the benchmark, and although I’m no expert I’ve a suspicion that low noise (RF and power supply) plays a big part. It seems that it is possible to address those issues in a server, but presently at very considerable expense, unless you have the know-how, time and patience to build one yourself. I don’t.



How could a server connected with a decent optical output possibly transmit RF noise to a Blu2 or an M Scaler?


----------



## Crgreen

AndrewOld said:


> How could a server connected with a decent optical output possibly transmit RF noise to a Blu2 or an M Scaler?



I can’t speak on behalf of Rob, but such issues can affect the reading and processing of the data before it’s transmitted via USB, electrical or optical. If you’re of the view that upstream components and their configuration can have a bearing on sound quality, I think there are improvements that can be made.


----------



## AndrewOld

Crgreen said:


> I can’t speak on behalf of Rob, but such issues can affect the reading and processing of the data before it’s transmitted via USB, electrical or optical. If you’re of the view that upstream components and their configuration can have a bearing on sound quality, I think there are improvements that can be made.



I specifically mentioned optical. How can you transmit RF over optical? The only other issue over optical could be jitter. Rob says his jitter rejection is way beyond adequate.


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> I specifically mentioned optical. How can you transmit RF over optical? The only other issue over optical could be jitter. Rob says his jitter rejection is way beyond adequate.



And I cannot speak on behalf of Crgreen but what he said was, "I can’t speak on behalf of Rob, but *such issues can affect the reading and processing of the data before it’s transmitted via USB, electrical or optical.*"


----------



## Crgreen

AndrewOld said:


> I specifically mentioned optical. How can you transmit RF over optical? The only other issue over optical could be jitter. Rob says his jitter rejection is way beyond adequate.



I didn’t say you could, and you can’t.


----------



## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> And I cannot speak on behalf of Crgreen but what he said was, "I can’t speak on behalf of Rob, but *such issues can affect the reading and processing of the data before it’s transmitted via USB, electrical or optical.*"



If “*such issues can affect the reading and processing of the data before it’s transmitted via USB”  *then how could you copy a file via USB?


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> If “*such issues can affect the reading and processing of the data before it’s transmitted via USB”  *then how could you copy a file via USB?



Don't shoot me. I was just the messenger.


----------



## Crgreen

AndrewOld said:


> If “*such issues can affect the reading and processing of the data before it’s transmitted via USB”  *then how could you copy a file via USB?



Okay, let me put it another way. There is a long-standing debate as to whether what goes on upstream of a DAC can affect the sound. Some, including myself, believe that it can and that it’s not just limited to RFI issues. Others believe that bits are bits, and nothing else upstream in the digital domain can make a difference. I’m sure you must have come across such discussions. I think you might be talking about something else, but I honestly can’t be sure.  

I should also point out that as I understand it, the connection between the CD transport and the m-scaler in the Blu2 is electrical, so RFI could be an issue.


----------



## yakaway

This might be a dumb question but for those dave owners that have a blu mk2 in black, are the finishes different?

My blu 2 is a matte black and the dave is a shiny or glossy black???

Just received the blu 2 recently and the dave a few weeks ago.


----------



## rayl

My pair matches... and I would characterize both as matte if the choice is matte vs shiny.  More accurately, they both look like black anodized aluminum, same as anodized aluminum cookware with that finish (higher quality, of course).


----------



## Triode User

Crgreen said:


> I should also point out that as I understand it, the connection between the CD transport and the m-scaler in the Blu2 is electrical, so RFI could be an issue.



Yes, but that is explained by RW in his post where he said, _"The benefit that the Blu 2 has is being able to play CD's; and all the reports I have seen is that CD replay using the Blu 2 is better than a dedicated server; *and the reason for this is the much lower power dissipation and overall lower RF noise as the internal clock speeds of a CD mech is very low, and it's low power too.*"_


----------



## AndrewOld (Aug 2, 2018)

Triode User said:


> Yes, but that is explained by RW in his post where he said, _"The benefit that the Blu 2 has is being able to play CD's; and all the reports I have seen is that CD replay using the Blu 2 is better than a dedicated server; *and the reason for this is the much lower power dissipation and overall lower RF noise as the internal clock speeds of a CD mech is very low, and it's low power too.*"_



I’ve asked him a question about that statement, and I’m waiting on an answer. If he is saying that a cd played back on a Blu2 will sound better than a perfect rip of that cd played back on a Blu2 or M Scaler then I’d like to know. It implies you could burn a cd from a file on your laptop and that cd would sound better through the Blu2 than the rip would.


----------



## Crgreen

Triode User said:


> Yes, but that is explained by RW in his post where he said, _"The benefit that the Blu 2 has is being able to play CD's; and all the reports I have seen is that CD replay using the Blu 2 is better than a dedicated server; *and the reason for this is the much lower power dissipation and overall lower RF noise as the internal clock speeds of a CD mech is very low, and it's low power too.*"_



Exactly, no buts about it! RW's comment formed the basis of my original remarks. Since we now seem to be going round in circles, and I clearly lack the ability to express myself in terms that anyone else can understand, I'll depart .


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> I’ve asked him a question about that statement, and I’m waiting on an answer. If he is saying that a cd played back on a Blu2 will sound better than a perfect rip of that cd played back on a Blu2 or M Scaler then I’d like to know. It implies you could burn a cd from a file on your laptop and that cd would sound better through the Blu2 than the rip would.



Yes, and I have no issues with that logic because the burned CD would not encapsulate any of the server RF noise. Hence, when was played back on the Blu2 you would get better than the ripped file played from the server. That makes sense to me.


----------



## elviscaprice

Actually, it doesn't make sense.  Far more noise is generated reading off a CD via transport than a hard drive.  CD is an outdated data medium.  Many audiophiles are moving on to larger content mediums for less foot print and rightfully so.  
If the BLU MKII is better SQ for CD playback within than outside server driving data streamed, then the right question might be what is wrong with the design?  I thought Rob said his designs were immune to outside noise other than RF?

Answer, there is more to it, starting with external clocking, clean power.   And if your not able to stream data with better SQ than a CD transport, you should be asking What am I doing wrong?


----------



## Triode User

elviscaprice said:


> Actually, it doesn't make sense. * Far more noise is generated reading off a CD via transport than a hard drive.*  CD is an outdated data medium.  Many audiophiles are moving on to larger content mediums for less foot print and rightfully so.
> If the BLU MKII is better SQ for CD playback within than outside server driving data streamed, then the right question might be what is wrong with the design?  I thought Rob said his designs were immune to outside noise other than RF?
> 
> Answer, there is more to it, starting with external clocking, clean power.   And if your not able to stream data with better SQ than a CD transport, you should be asking What am I doing wrong?



Really? Why is RW’s explanation not valid? Hard drives can be noisy and their associated circuits can be noisy. You mention RF and I suspect that is exactly what is generated by your hard drive server. I am more inclined to accept RW’s description of the Blu2 cd drive because that makes sense.


----------



## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> Yes, and I have no issues with that logic because the burned CD would not encapsulate any of the server RF noise. Hence, when was played back on the Blu2 you would get better than the ripped file played from the server. That makes sense to me.



Makes no sense to me whatsoever. Scarily nonsensical. Why wouldn’t a burned cd “encapsulate any of the server RF noise” when an optical s/pdif stream would? Both are sourced from the same pc.  How do you encapsulate RF  noise (whatever that means) in an s/pdif stream? Either the bits are right or they are wrong. Either the embedded clock is within the scope  of the jitter rejection of the receiver or it is not.


----------



## miketlse

AndrewOld said:


> Makes no sense to me whatsoever. Scarily nonsensical. Why wouldn’t a burned cd “encapsulate any of the server RF noise” when an optical s/pdif stream would? Both are sourced from the same pc.  How do you encapsulate RF  noise (whatever that means) in an s/pdif stream? Either the bits are right or they are wrong. Either the embedded clock is within the scope  of the jitter rejection of the receiver or it is not.


But the bits are not numbers, they are transmitted via usb or coaxial as analogue voltage levels (0V and 5V), and electrical noise from the source, or its power supply, can play havoc with the 0V ground plane. Read some of Robs posts about how noise on the ground plane, impacts the ability of the analogue sections of the dac, to reproduce transients and timbre.


----------



## jlbrach

pretty simple,if you still listen to CD's then the blu2 is the way to go....if you have given up on CD's and only use tidal or music on your hard drive then the hugo scaler is the ticket....my guess is there are a lot of people round the world still listening to those good old discs


----------



## AndrewOld (Aug 2, 2018)

miketlse said:


> But the bits are not numbers, they are transmitted via usb or coaxial as analogue voltage levels (0V and 5V), and electrical noise from the source, or its power supply, can play havoc with the 0V ground plane. Read some of Robs posts about how noise on the ground plane, impacts the ability of the analogue sections of the dac, to reproduce transients and timbre.



I was specifically talking about optical. So there is no ground plane and no analogue voltage and no possibility of electrical noise, RF, bad karma or strange smells. I’ve read all of Rob’s posts.You tell me how electrical noise on the ground plane transmits itself via optical. Rob uses optical as the reference because there is no possibility of electrical noise transmitting itself via the ground plane. Optical does not have a ground plane.

People (like me) are buying an M Scaler because we expect at least as good a result from our file based sources as folks with a Blu2 get from their cds. If an M Scaler only gives second rate results compared to cd, then please can we be told. We can save our money until the issue is fixed.


----------



## dakabali

jlbrach said:


> pretty simple,if you still listen to CD's then the blu2 is the way to go....if you have given up on CD's and only use tidal or music on your hard drive then the hugo scaler is the ticket....my guess is there are a lot of people round the world still listening to those good old discs


We all want the best possible SQ, don't we?  Now I think it's quite funny that some (most) people with the Blu2 invest a LOT of $$$ into cables, high quality streaming services and network players etc. to improve the SQ instead of buying some CD-R for a fraction of this money or just getting the last forgotten CD collection from the basement. SQ provided by the Blu2 CD playback is the best a Chord system can do as of today, period.


----------



## dakabali (Aug 2, 2018)

AndrewOld said:


> ...It implies you could burn a cd from a file on your laptop and that cd would sound better through the Blu2 than the rip would.


Actually I've tried this and yes the same music file does sound better on CD through the Blu2.


----------



## ray-dude

dakabali said:


> Actually I've tried this and yes the same music file does sound better on CD through the Blu2.



Very clear for me as well (see my review below)  the difference is between un-frickin-believable and un-frickin-believable + a couple percent, but there is a clear benefit in not having a digital connection to the Blu2


----------



## auricgoldfinger

I received a lightly used, mint condition DAVE today.  I am having an issue using it with Roon.  My setup is modified switch => sMS-200ultra => tX-USBultra => DAC.  Previously, I used HQPlayer and Roon (NAA mode) with an Auralic Vega and never had an issue.  With DAVE, Roon (Roon Ready mode) only sees the sMS-200 endpoint on the network only when I remove the tX-USBultra from the system.  With the tX-USBultra in place, Roon does not see an audio device and will not play.

All I did was swap the Vega for the DAVE.  I am using the same power and USB cables.  Nothing else changed.   

Does anyone have any troubleshooting ideas?


----------



## elviscaprice (Aug 2, 2018)

auricgoldfinger said:


> I received a lightly used, mint condition DAVE today.  I am having an issue using it with Roon.  My setup is modified switch => sMS-200ultra => tX-USBultra => DAC.  Previously, I used HQPlayer and Roon (NAA mode) with an Auralic Vega and never had an issue.  With DAVE, Roon (Roon Ready mode) only sees the sMS-200 endpoint on the network only when I remove the tX-USBultra from the system.  With the tX-USBultra in place, Roon does not see an audio device and will not play.
> 
> All I did was swap the Vega for the DAVE.  I am using the same power and USB cables.  Nothing else changed.
> 
> Does anyone have any troubleshooting ideas?


Are you using Windows as OS?  If so, download the device driver for DAVE.  Power on all downstream components before booting.
https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/dave/

Not sure how Roon works, but I'm sure you'll have to choose the ASIO DAVE driver within the software.


----------



## auricgoldfinger

elviscaprice said:


> Are you using Windows as OS?  If so, download the device driver for DAVE.  Power on all downstream components before booting.
> https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/dave/



I'm using a Windows 7 PC.  I downloaded and installed the ASIO driver from the Chord site.  I think the driver works because I can use Roon when the sMS-200ultra feeds DAVE directly.

Are you saying that I should turn on the endpoints before DAVE?


----------



## elviscaprice (Aug 2, 2018)

auricgoldfinger said:


> I'm using a Windows 7 PC.  I downloaded and installed the ASIO driver from the Chord site.  I think the driver works because I can use Roon when the sMS-200ultra feeds DAVE directly.
> 
> Are you saying that I should turn on the endpoints before DAVE?


I see that this is a Windows 10 device driver on the Chord site.  Not sure if it's backward compatible with Windows 7?  Should be.
Sorry, I can't answer you on that renderer question, never has been in my system.  Not a fan of it's software inflexibility.   Nor a fan of Roon.  Your problem lies with Roon/sMS-200Ultra, not DAVE, as you so rightly describe.  
Hopefully someone here can help.


----------



## auricgoldfinger

elviscaprice said:


> I see that this is a Windows 10 device driver on the Chord site. Not sure if it's backward compatible with Windows 7? Should be.



I checked with Chord before installing the driver and was told that it is backward compatible.  I'll give your power sequencing suggestion a try when I put the DAVE back in my system.  I last reverted to the Vega setup to be sure the tX-USBultra was still functioning properly and don't want to start the process over again tonight.  I already pulled out a lot of hair today.  

Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## ecwl

auricgoldfinger said:


> I received a lightly used, mint condition DAVE today.  I am having an issue using it with Roon.  My setup is modified switch => sMS-200ultra => tX-USBultra => DAC.  Previously, I used HQPlayer and Roon (NAA mode) with an Auralic Vega and never had an issue.  With DAVE, Roon (Roon Ready mode) only sees the sMS-200 endpoint on the network only when I remove the tX-USBultra from the system.  With the tX-USBultra in place, Roon does not see an audio device and will not play.
> Does anyone have any troubleshooting ideas?


Sorry. I just wanted to clarify... When you have the sMS-200 connected to the DAVE, does it play? Does Roon recognize that the sMS-200 is connected to Chord DAVE?
One possibility is that sMS-200 is still thinking you're connected to the Vega which is probably why DAVE sort of works with the sMS-200 but not when the tx-USBultra is in place.

The other possibility is, did you turn off the power to the USB port on the tX-USBultra? DAVE needs the USB power to be turned on to work.


----------



## auricgoldfinger

ecwl said:


> Sorry. I just wanted to clarify... When you have the sMS-200 connected to the DAVE, does it play? Does Roon recognize that the sMS-200 is connected to Chord DAVE?
> One possibility is that sMS-200 is still thinking you're connected to the Vega which is probably why DAVE sort of works with the sMS-200 but not when the tx-USBultra is in place.
> 
> The other possibility is, did you turn off the power to the USB port on the tX-USBultra? DAVE needs the USB power to be turned on to work.




Yes, Roon plays when the sMS-200 is connected directly to DAVE.  I'll double check the USB port...that's a good idea...but I'm pretty sure it's on because the Vega needs the 5v bus power.  I'll let you know.  Thanks!


----------



## ecwl

auricgoldfinger said:


> Yes, Roon plays when the sMS-200 is connected directly to DAVE.  I'll double check the USB port...that's a good idea...but I'm pretty sure it's on because the Vega needs the 5v bus power.  I'll let you know.  Thanks!


I also just realized another possibility... what are you using to power the tx-USB ultra? If the Vega asynchronous USB draws less power than the DAVE’s, it’s possible that’s why DAVE is not connected to the tx-USB ultra when Vega can. I recall running into this problem when I first got DAVE.


----------



## auricgoldfinger

ecwl said:


> I also just realized another possibility... what are you using to power the tx-USB ultra? If the Vega asynchronous USB draws less power than the DAVE’s, it’s possible that’s why DAVE is not connected to the tx-USB ultra when Vega can. I recall running into this problem when I first got DAVE.



I'm using an LPS-1.2 set to 12vdc.  Are you suggesting that I need to try a bigger power supply on the tX-USB?


----------



## ecwl

auricgoldfinger said:


> I'm using an LPS-1.2 set to 12vdc.  Are you suggesting that I need to try a bigger power supply on the tX-USB?


Yes. Because I thought tx-USB needs 2A and LPS-1.2 can only do a maximum of 1.1A. When you look at the lights on the LPS-1.2 when the tx-USB is connected to DAVE, are you seeing green all the time or does it flash or cycle? I bought the LPS-1 and then realized it didn't have enough current to power the tx-USBexp card connected to DAVE. Even now when I power my ultraRendu with my LPS1, the LPS1 runs super hot, probably because DAVE/Blu2 USB draws more current? Not sure.


----------



## Hifi Boy

Can we all agree on this list from best to worst sounding?

Blu + Ferrites  + CD
Blu + Ferrites + Stream = Mscaler + Stream
Blu - Ferrites + CD 
Blu - Ferrites + Stream


----------



## ray-dude

I’d move Blu - ferrites + CD up one (at least in my set up....RF is very system dependent, so your mileage may vary)

For me, cd only was clearly better, even without ferrites. Ferrites are key for me to get streaming close to what cd alone can do


----------



## elviscaprice (Aug 3, 2018)

Hifi Boy said:


> Can we all agree on this list from best to worst sounding?
> 
> Blu + Ferrites  + CD
> Blu + Ferrites + Stream = Mscaler + Stream
> ...



You don't know that, because we haven't heard the final Hugo M-Scaler yet.  It just may be that it beats the BLU on sound, even when using the transport, which would be system dependent. 

The Hugo M-Scaler can be powered separately with a clean supply like a Paul Hynes SR7.  Which just may, with a clean clocked stream, put the Hugo M-Scaler (improved design) over the top of the BLU capabilities.
If I was a betting man, I would bet this will be the case.


----------



## dac64

Hifi Boy said:


> Can we all agree on this list from best to worst sounding?
> 
> Blu + Ferrites  + CD
> Blu + Ferrites + Stream = Mscaler + Stream
> ...



Blu + CD or Mscaler + Stream or CD + Mscaler
Blu - Ferrites + Stream


----------



## elviscaprice (Aug 3, 2018)

dac64 said:


> Blu + CD or Mscaler + Stream or CD + Mscaler
> Blu - Ferrites + Stream


Hugo M-Scaler won't have a cd transport.  Are you suggesting streaming one to it?  

Just Hugo M-Scaler + LPSU (good one) + clean clocked stream will be number one.


----------



## S Crowther

Hifi Boy said:


> Can we all agree on this list from best to worst sounding?
> 
> Blu + Ferrites  + CD
> Blu + Ferrites + Stream = Mscaler + Stream
> ...


What had this to do with the Dave?
There is an mscaler thread.


----------



## elviscaprice

S Crowther said:


> What had this to do with the Dave?
> There is an mscaler thread.


The fact that DAVE plus BLU or Hugo M-Scaler will have the superior SQ.


----------



## Triode User

Hifi Boy said:


> Can we all agree on this list from best to worst sounding?
> 
> Blu + Ferrites  + CD
> Blu + Ferrites + Stream = Mscaler + Stream
> ...



I have found in my sytsem that the ferrites on Blu2 seem to reduce the differences between steamers. It will be interesting to see whether the new isolation on the HugoMS dual outputs does the same. 
In all this, remember that all ferrites are not equal. You need the right sort and enough of them.


----------



## dac64 (Aug 3, 2018)

elviscaprice said:


> Hugo M-Scaler won't have a cd transport.  Are you suggesting streaming one to it?
> 
> Just Hugo M-Scaler + LPSU (good one) + clean clocked stream will be number one.


A external cd player, cd transport or even a external disk drive with play option.

Btw, rob said lpsu not good!

And we could battery powered external  disk drive/mscaler/TT2/hugo2/qutest, if one goes to the extend!


----------



## Cobold

" if a conventional digital signal is transmitted via toslink, then the clocking signal is embedded within it. The clocking information is at the same time the HF interference of the computer in the form of Jitter, and Jitter is very difficult to completely remove after the fact. Therefore, the optical audio connection does not eliminate the interference from the computer."

http://www.artistic-fidelity.de/index.php/en/modulare-serie/11-usb-audio-converter-module

This is what the german audio company artistic fidelity says about toslink transmission.
Sounds plausible for me.


----------



## elviscaprice

dac64 said:


> A external cd player, cd transport or even a external disk drive with play option.
> 
> Btw, rob said lpsu not good!



He said the same for 2Qute and I found that a good LPSU made a big difference.  Brilliant designs, but from my listening experience an external LPSU made a big difference.  Thus I imagine so for the Hugo M-Scaler.  Will find out soon enough.


----------



## elviscaprice

Triode User said:


> I have found in my sytsem that the ferrites on Blu2 seem to reduce the differences between steamers. It will be interesting to see whether the new isolation on the HugoMS dual outputs does the same.
> In all this, remember that all ferrites are not equal. You need the right sort and enough of them.



Now you don't believe Rob when he tells you that ferrites make the Hugo M-Scaler worse?  When you label his word as final on everything else.


----------



## Triode User

elviscaprice said:


> Now you don't believe Rob when he tells you that ferrites make the Hugo M-Scaler worse?  When you label his word as final on everything else.



Nowhere have I said that I don't believe Rob when he says that ferrites make the Hugo M-Scaler worse. Certainly I never intended to say that.

I think to be fair Rob hardly believes it himself or at least it surprised him. In fact he said as much. So I wouldn't be surprised if he sets about finding out what is going on there at some point.


----------



## Hifi Boy

elviscaprice said:


> You don't know that, because we haven't heard the final Hugo M-Scaler yet.  It just may be that it beats the BLU on sound, even when using the transport, which would be system dependent.
> 
> The Hugo M-Scaler can be powered separately with a clean supply like a Paul Hynes SR7.  Which just may, with a clean clocked stream, put the Hugo M-Scaler (improved design) over the top of the BLU capabilities.
> If I was a betting man, I would bet this will be the case.


 I know that I don't know that, but I'm just going by what I've read. We can only be certain after the release, but at least we can do some estimates based on what people report on hearing and especially what Rob says.


----------



## dakabali

auricgoldfinger said:


> I received a lightly used, mint condition DAVE today.  I am having an issue using it with Roon.  My setup is modified switch => sMS-200ultra => tX-USBultra => DAC...


I've got the same chain and it works flawlessly. Make sure you provide power for the USB input of the DAC (set the red switch on the back of the tX-USBultra)


----------



## Hifi Boy

Triode User said:


> I have found in my sytsem that the ferrites on Blu2 seem to reduce the differences between steamers. It will be interesting to see whether the new isolation on the HugoMS dual outputs does the same.
> In all this, remember that all ferrites are not equal. You need the right sort and enough of them.


Yeah, once both TT2 and the Mscaler get released, I'm sure there will be a detailed comparison.


----------



## AndrewOld

Hifi Boy said:


> Can we all agree on this list from best to worst sounding?
> 
> Blu + Ferrites  + CD
> Blu + Ferrites + Stream = Mscaler + Stream
> ...



No I don’t agree. And until people have actually heard these combinations then any agreement is a nonsense. If an M Scaler cannot play a ripped CD as well as a Blu2 can play the same CD (assuming a competent rip and source) then there is something profoundly wrong, imo.

(and If you believe CD has magical powers, what about CD Transport + M Scaler + DAVE? In other words, putting a separate CD transport in front of an M Scaler is better than a Blu2 because there is less chance of interaction, bad Karma, evil spirits power supply noise, encapsulated RF, cosmic rays.. sunspots..)


----------



## dakabali

AndrewOld said:


> No I don’t agree. And until people have actually heard these combinations then any agreement is a nonsense. If an M Scaler cannot play a ripped CD as well as a Blu2 can play the same CD (assuming a competent rip and source) then there is something profoundly wrong, imo.
> 
> (and If you believe CD has magical powers, what about CD Transport + M Scaler + DAVE? In other words, putting a separate CD transport in front of an M Scaler is better than a Blu2 because there is less chance of interaction, bad Karma, evil spirits power supply noise, encapsulated RF, cosmic rays.. sunspots..)


I fully agree with you. Streaming is on thing CD is an other. Exact comparisons will be 

1. (CD Transport + M Scaler + DAVE) vs BluDAVE
2. (streamer + M Scaler + DAVE) vs (streamer + BluDAVE) 

In both cases with or without ferrites.


----------



## Hifi Boy

AndrewOld said:


> No I don’t agree. And until people have actually heard these combinations then any agreement is a nonsense.


 Please read what I said 3 posts above. I'm only suggesting that this COULD be how they stack up, based on what other people have said. We will only know for sure once all the products are released and a detailed comparison is performed.


----------



## flyte3333

dac64 said:


> Btw, rob said lpsu not good!



Nope, just the one's he's had in his possession - and he's mentioned toroidal transformer ones as being an issue (RF).

I can't imagine he's tested all - especially something like the Uptone LPS-1.2 (which is actually powered by an SMPS..).


----------



## AndrewOld

Hifi Boy said:


> Please read what I said 3 posts above. I'm only suggesting that this COULD be how they stack up, based on what other people have said. We will only know for sure once all the products are released and a detailed comparison is performed.



I did read what you said. You asked “Can we all agree on this list from best to worst...”. I said no. I do not agree with the list.


----------



## Crgreen

Hifi Boy said:


> Can we all agree on this list from best to worst sounding?
> 
> Blu + Ferrites  + CD
> Blu + Ferrites + Stream = Mscaler + Stream
> ...



I think the answer to your question is “definitely not”. Inevitable really, since I can’t think of any issue on which there’s common agreement, just a lot of folk asserting their rightness. Much like the world outside this forum.


----------



## Hifi Boy

You are both welcome to modify the list based on information you have, that I might not have. And since you both should have understood that this is a temporary list, there is no reason to claim that it's incorrect, because I haven't yet heard the equipment. That goes without saying, of course I haven't heard it, that's why it's just based on what I've read.

Now, if you will, please post your version based on what you EXPECT the ranking  will be.


----------



## AndrewOld

Hifi Boy said:


> Now, if you will, please post your version based on what you EXPECT the ranking  will be.



No!


----------



## miketlse

Hifi Boy said:


> You are both welcome to modify the list based on information you have, that I might not have. And since you both should have understood that this is a temporary list, there is no reason to claim that it's incorrect, because I haven't yet heard the equipment. That goes without saying, of course I haven't heard it, that's why it's just based on what I've read.
> 
> Now, if you will, please post your version based on what you EXPECT the ranking  will be.


Just let it drop.
Many of us have learnt that trying to get @AndrewOld to change his mind on anything, is nigh impossible.


----------



## Crgreen

miketlse said:


> Just let it drop.
> Many of us have learnt that trying to get @AndrewOld to change his mind on anything, is nigh impossible.



And when stuck, he moves the goalposts. That way he can never be wrong, just right on something else.


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## Hifi Boy (Aug 3, 2018)

It's fine, we'll see how things turn out soon enough, just gotta be patient. I would certainly like to hear all the devices for myself to make the judgement on what's best.

If nothing else, we can at least agree that it's going to be good!

If you think about it, Mscaler + TT2 are now as close to the top gear as can be, without actually being the best, but for a fraction of the price!
That, I think nobody saw  that coming just 2 years ago. This kind of sound quality was outside of most of people's  price range, yet today, it's pretty much affordable.


----------



## AndrewOld

Crgreen said:


> And when stuck, he moves the goalposts. That way he can never be wrong, just right on something else.



Why on earth should I or anyone agree on your list without any substantive evidence - like actually listening to the products in it? Why do you want to jump to a pre-emptive ranking without any first-hand experience? My mind hasn’t been made up, so accusing me of changing it is silly. Please give me an example where I have moved the goalposts, or withdraw your personal and unfounded attack.


----------



## Crgreen

AndrewOld said:


> Why on earth should I or anyone agree on your list without any substantive evidence - like actually listening to the products in it? Why do you want to jump to a pre-emptive ranking without any first-hand experience? My mind hasn’t been made up, so accusing me of changing it is silly. Please give me an example where I have moved the goalposts, or withdraw your personal and unfounded attack.



No! 

I’ll let others decide.


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## AndrewOld (Aug 3, 2018)

miketlse said:


> Just let it drop.
> Many of us have learnt that trying to get @AndrewOld to change his mind on anything, is nigh impossible.



The only thing I have expressed a strong opinion on was that the M Scaler should be this year, and that it would cost substantially less than the Blu2 if priced fairly. Since I was absolutely right on both scores why would I change my mind? I held my ground because I believed I was right, and I was. Only one person who took a different position has had the grace to concede.


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## Imusicman

“enjoy the music people”


----------



## paul2qute

Phuca said:


> You people are putting me off my purchase of TT2 and MScaler.
> 
> Please stop, as I haven’t got another £1000 to buy Dave instead.


Just sell the house mate, buy a tent . Problem solved


----------



## paul2qute

Phuca said:


> I hope so, some threads/posts say Dave is still King, others that say TT2+MScaler will be the better setup.
> 
> I just hope I have made the correct buying decision.
> 
> ...


Pipe dream for me blu 2 and Dave, but with the hugo TT 2 with m scaler it's something I can get and I'm hoping not that far off performance of the former. Never thought I would reach this level in audio gear so quite excited


----------



## Imusicman

exciting times for audio for sure. I have listened to the Dave/Blu 2 combo and it was an awesome experience. In saying that I will be sticking with the Dave only for now. I might be swayed in the future if a M scaler -minus cd that fits aesthetically with the Dave is introduced sometime in the future.


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## paul2qute

Imusicman said:


> exciting times for audio for sure. I have listened to the Dave/Blu 2 combo and it was an awesome experience. In saying that I will be sticking with the Dave only for now. I might be swayed in the future if a M scaler -minus cd that fits aesthetically with the Dave is introduced sometime in the future.


I seen the chord blu 2 and Dave when they first came out, I tried to block it out my mind as I knew if I won the lottery that's the first thing I would buy oh  and a separate house for the Mrs, now the M scaler is coming out at a much cheaper price then I'm gonna get similar performance for halve the price, just can't believe it


----------



## paul2qute

GryphonGuy said:


> DAVE DAVE DAVE. Hugo2 would be useful in my world only if I was to be a massive travel-listener needing a mobile solution. Otherwise DAVE is hands-down superior in every way other than mobile of course.
> 
> Regards
> GG


Do you think the hugo TT 2 will be any where near the sound quality of the Dave


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## paul2qute

Well this is my new Chord M scaler!!! Mrs decided to buy two new couches instead, told her we have deck chairs in the shed


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## Crgreen

paul2qute said:


> Well this is my new Chord M scaler!!! Mrs decided to buy two new couches instead, told her we have deck chairs in the shed



Looks like you’ve taken the protective wrapping off your couches, but not your speakers!

I think you need to rethink. The HMS should be available in time for Christmas, so maybe Santa will have a surprise.


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## paul2qute

Crgreen said:


> Looks like you’ve taken the protective wrapping off your couches, but not your speakers!
> 
> I think you need to rethink. The HMS should be available in time for Christmas, so maybe Santa will have a surprise.


Lol that's my headphones mate, not a speck of dust on them, Mrs said 50 quid for Christmas


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## Crgreen

paul2qute said:


> Lol that's my headphones mate, not a speck of dust on them, Mrs said 50 quid for Christmas



Well, look at this way: the new couches will provide valuable acoustic damping, unless you only listen on dust free headphones.

50 quid? That’s why you need to speak to Santa. Get her to take you to see him at a department store nearer the date. It’s got to be worth a try.

Like the table by the way.


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## miketlse (Aug 4, 2018)

paul2qute said:


> Well this is my new Chord M scaler!!! Mrs decided to buy two new couches instead, told her we have deck chairs in the shed


Look on the bright side. When you have the head-fi meet at your home in october, at least everyone will have a seat, whilst they listen to your TT2.


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## paul2qute

Crgreen said:


> Well, look at this way: the new couches will provide valuable acoustic damping, unless you only listen on dust free headphones.
> 
> 50 quid? That’s why you need to speak to Santa. Get her to take you to see him at a department store nearer the date. It’s got to be worth a try.
> 
> Like the table by the way.


I love listening to speakers as well so yes acoustic damping lol


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## paul2qute (Aug 4, 2018)

miketlse said:


> Look on the bright side. When you have the head-fi meet at your home in october, at least everyone will have a seat, whilst they listen to your TT2.


Lol good idea, 5 quid a ticket, free drinks and I'll do a presentation of how the hugo TT 2 works, that will pay for my M scaler, mate your well smarter than you look great idea lol.I'll spend an hour talking about the noise shaper


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## auricgoldfinger

paul2qute said:


> Well this is my new Chord M scaler!!! Mrs decided to buy two new couches instead, told her we have deck chairs in the shed



At least she let you keep your gear in the room.


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## paul2qute

It's nice mixing with the elite in here


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## paul2qute

auricgoldfinger said:


> At least she let you keep your gear in the room.


She did want me to get rid of it and have a little portable hi-fi system so it looked neater, told her your the most important thing in my life.. .after my hi-fi


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## paul2qute (Aug 4, 2018)

If I use my chord hugo TT 2 with the M scaler and using the hugo TT 2 as dac only not as a pre amp and it went through my Arcam avr850 would I still hear  the benefits?


----------



## ecwl

paul2qute said:


> If I use my chord hugo TT 2 with the M scaler and using the hugo TT 2 as dac only not as a pre amp and it went through my Arcam avr850 would I still hear  the benefits?


Hmmm... I think you'd be better off getting Qutest. First, you'd have to not use Dirac from Arcam and Pure Direct stereo audio, or else, you're just using the Arcam DAC rather than the Chord DAC. Second, you're at the mercy of the Arcam preamp so the additional resolution or transparency from TT2 over Hugo 2/Qutest would probably (not definitely) lost. But yes, you'd hear an improvement of the Qutest through Arcam with and without M Scaler. I don't think it'll be subtle at all.


----------



## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> If I use my chord hugo TT 2 with the M scaler and using the hugo TT 2 as dac only not as a pre amp and it went through my Arcam avr850 would I still hear  the benefits?


I cannot be certain, what speakers do you use?

The reason that I ask is that I sometimes use the Mojo or Hugo 2 to drive an arcam solo neo amp, to drive my Focal Aria 936 speakers.
Arcam, along with Naim and Anthem, are reviewed as being good partners for Focal Speakers.
I find the neo, leaves something to be desired compared to headphones - some of the detail is missing. Partly this is not surprising, because speakers are widely regarded as being less revealing than headphones.
The interesting thing for me would be trying to drive the speakers direct from the TT2, because that would represent the most revealing sound that you could get.
Your AVR would then be performing the role of source to your MScaler or TT2.


----------



## paul2qute

ecwl said:


> Hmmm... I think you'd be better off getting Qutest. First, you'd have to not use Dirac from Arcam and Pure Direct stereo audio, or else, you're just using the Arcam DAC rather than the Chord DAC. Second, you're at the mercy of the Arcam preamp so the additional resolution or transparency from TT2 over Hugo 2/Qutest would probably (not definitely) lost. But yes, you'd hear an improvement of the Qutest through Arcam with and without M Scaler. I don't think it'll be subtle at all.


Your spot on, I've got my rca cables connected to the Arcam direct, by pass the dac in the Arcam and the Arcam is 4500 grand so I'm hoping it will show what the chord can do without to much sacrifice, I know it's not ideal.If I don't benefit then I've still got my headphones that is gonna give me pure bliss


----------



## paul2qute (Aug 4, 2018)

miketlse said:


> I cannot be certain, what speakers do you use?
> 
> The reason that I ask is that I sometimes use the Mojo or Hugo 2 to drive an arcam solo neo amp, to drive my Focal Aria 936 speakers.
> Arcam, along with Naim and Anthem, are reviewed as being good partners for Focal Speakers.
> ...


Sorry mate don't understand the last bit, if I used my hugo TT 2 direct to speakers that would be the best but I love my Rel sub that cost me 2 grand so couldn't handle not using that as well, Arcam as a source confused me.My laptop is my source


----------



## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> Sorry mate don't understand the last bit, if I used my hugo TT 2 direct to speakers that would be the best but I love my Rel sub that cost me 2 grand so couldn't handle not using that as well, Arcam as a source confused me


My confusion, I was thinking with all those inputs to the AVR, that you could use it as a network streamer, and feed a digital output to the MScaler, which would then feed the TT2 dac.
Could you use the RCA outputs from the TT2 to drive your stereo speakers, and the balanced outputs to drive your sub (or vice versa)?


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## paul2qute (Aug 4, 2018)

miketlse said:


> My confusion, I was thinking with all those inputs to the AVR, that you could use it as a network streamer, and feed a digital output to the MScaler, which would then feed the TT2 dac.
> Could you use the RCA outputs from the TT2 to drive your stereo speakers, and the balanced outputs to drive your sub (or vice versa)?


I couldn't mate,my Rel sub is connected to the stereo  outputs of the left and right speakers for purist sound,with that neutronc socket lol can't spell it.Mate it doesn't have balanced connections on the Arcam


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## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> I couldn't mate,my Rel sub is connected to the stereo  outputs of the left and right speakers for purist sound,with that neutronc socket lol can't spell it.Mate it doesn't have balanced connections on the Arcam


Ah well, it was worth a thought, but seemingly not possible.


----------



## paul2qute

miketlse said:


> Ah well, it was worth a thought, but seemingly not possible.


Could sell the Arcam as part ex and get the M scaler but I love films and the Arcam avr 850 is awesome


----------



## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> Could sell the Arcam as part ex and get the M scaler but I love films and the Arcam avr 850 is awesome


Don't jump to an impulse decision.
Five years ago, I bought a Yamaha AVR intending to explore 5.1 audio discs.
However I never added the speakers to achieve 5.1.
I still have the Yamaha, in case i need it, but rarely use it.
The focus nowadays is on 2 channel sound using chord dacs.
The moral of the story, don't rush, because you have a gamechanger arriving with the TT2,so allow some time to evaluate it, then consider MScaler or a different AVR.


----------



## paul2qute

I wanna tell my mates about my Chord hugo TT 2,work mates anyone that is interested, but apart from talking to you special ppl no-one I know is interested


----------



## paul2qute

miketlse said:


> Don't jump to an impulse decision.
> Five years ago, I bought a Yamaha AVR intending to explore 5.1 audio discs.
> However I never added the speakers to achieve 5.1.
> I still have the Yamaha, in case i need it, but rarely use it.
> ...


Mike the Arcam avr 850 is one of the best in the world by using direc don't want for anything else film wise it blows me away, but I want the m scaler, my life is perfect right now, I lost my dad but I'm making up for it by actually appreciating the life I've got, M scaler ain't the be all and end all,health more important but I'm still trying to find ways to get the M scaler


----------



## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> I wanna tell my mates about my Chord hugo TT 2,work mates anyone that is interested, but apart from talking to you special ppl no-one I know is interested


That is life, you are either an audiophile or not.
You have to consider a more subtle approach, such as wait till halloween or bonfire night, and invite pals over to try your wifes new sofas, then play some good music, and watch their response.


----------



## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> Mike the Arcam avr 850 is one of the best in the world by using direc don't want for anything else film wise it blows me away, but I want the m scaler, my life is perfect right now, I lost my dad but I'm making up for it by actually appreciating the life I've got, M scaler ain't the be all and end all,health more important but I'm still trying to find ways to get the M scaler


You will succeed with the M Scaler, but there is no need to get stressed about it. Maybe it will take until the new year or spring, but there is no need to rush.


----------



## paul2qute

miketlse said:


> That is life, you are either an audiophile or not.
> You have to consider a more subtle approach, such as wait till halloween or bonfire night, and invite pals over to try your wifes new sofas, then play some good music, and watch their response.


On a serious note I thought I was strange how no-one I knew got hi-fi or maybe I thought everyone else was strange and I was normal


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## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> On a serious note I thought I was strange how no-one I knew got hi-fi or maybe I thought everyone else was strange and I was normal


I think lots of people like the processed music played in nightclubs, but never think about other music or musicians.
I found that once i started talking about music, or composers, or music festivals, then more people revealed themselves as musicians or music fans.
The key is the music, the hifi is just a tool/enabler to listen to music, so most people are disinterested in it.


----------



## paul2qute

miketlse said:


> I think lots of people like the processed music played in nightclubs, but never think about other music or musicians.
> I found that once i started talking about music, or composers, or music festivals, then more people revealed themselves as musicians or music fans.
> The key is the music, the hifi is just a tool/enabler to listen to music, so most people are disinterested in it.


Mike your so right it's the music not the hi-fi but to me and others that don't go to festivals anymore its the next best thing, I want to feel like them artists are playing in my lounge, loved your last text that I'm replying to mate, your so switched on


----------



## GryphonGuy

paul2qute said:


> Do you think the hugo TT 2 will be any where near the sound quality of the Dave



I have heard the Hugo2 in a noisy audio show and could tell immediately that it had the Chord DAC sound signature (similar signature to my DAVE) but had a lot of things missing or not done as well. To quantify what was missing or not done as well is difficult and since this is not a review, I will not even try here and it was a long time ago now and we all know what audio memory is like.

The "rules" of product differentiation means that if you are being asked to pay more than double for one product over another then there will be a difference. What that difference is and whether it is valuable to you (meaning you are willing to pay the higher price) is really up to you and why you should audition hi-fi products if at all possible. From the Chord Electronics perspective it is about positioning your product in the market against perceived rivals and indeed your own line of products.

So I believe the Hugo TT2 will be different sounding to DAVE based on product differentiation reasons; just how close they are to each other and if one is preferred over the other, only you can decide by auditioning. Because there was not the array of Chord DAC's available on the market as there is today there was really only the one "high-end" DAC available. I already had funds available to purchase DAVE when my french Metronome DAC failed and was declared unrepairable so I purchased DAVE. I have not regretted that purchase one iota.

Regards
GG


----------



## Arcabonne

Dear all, do you suppose future Chord digital amp will have analog imput? I am inclined to wait for it, for best sinergy with BluDave set, but need ampli also for my classic pre, since half of the listening is from lp (other half is from cd).
Otherwise I should consider a good Class A amp (leaving the valves I have today).
Thanks in advice.
sp


----------



## ufospls2

Hi Guys,

I have an opportunity to give a DAVE a test listen for the first time very soon. I am using a Macbook Pro as my source, via the optical, and USB outputs. How do I know if these outputs are bit perfect? That has been mentioned as being important. Also, I will be using PCM files, what are the best settings for PCM? Sorry, I've never used the DAVE before, and don't know too much about its various settings. Thanks for the help


----------



## miketlse

Arcabonne said:


> Dear all, do you suppose future Chord digital amp will have analog imput? I am inclined to wait for it, for best sinergy with BluDave set, but need ampli also for my classic pre, since half of the listening is from lp (other half is from cd).
> Otherwise I should consider a good Class A amp (leaving the valves I have today).
> Thanks in advice.
> sp


Only @Rob Watts will know.


----------



## ecwl

Arcabonne said:


> Dear all, do you suppose future Chord digital amp will have analog imput? I am inclined to wait for it, for best sinergy with BluDave set, but need ampli also for my classic pre, since half of the listening is from lp (other half is from cd).
> Otherwise I should consider a good Class A amp (leaving the valves I have today).
> Thanks in advice.
> sp


Chord digital amp won’t have analog input for the simple reason that it’ll require a proper ADC which Rob Watts is developing. It is possible (and I think probable) that his ADC combined with the digital amp would have better transparency than vinyl through traditional preamp and amp. But I suspect it’ll be another couple of years before we’d find out. 

The bigger issue I think is that if you’re used to valve sound, you probably appreciate some second and third harmonic distortions from your amp and you’re not likely to get that from the digital amp so I’d say a class A amp is the way to go.


----------



## ecwl

ufospls2 said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I have an opportunity to give a DAVE a test listen for the first time very soon. I am using a Macbook Pro as my source, via the optical, and USB outputs. How do I know if these outputs are bit perfect? That has been mentioned as being important. Also, I will be using PCM files, what are the best settings for PCM? Sorry, I've never used the DAVE before, and don't know too much about its various settings. Thanks for the help


It would help to know what you normally do with your laptop and your current USB DAC. Most music players automatically play bit perfect unless you program them not to. If you’re using iTunes then you might have to change your MacBook settings.


----------



## thread

Hello, DAVErs! I'm considering a power cable upgrade.

I hear good things about thicker-gauged power cables (7-9 AWG) with the DAVE, but many people report great results with the Shunyata Venom 3 (10 AWG). Still others are perfectly happy with the 14-gauge Pangea AC 14SE -- and I would imagine the AC 14 XL MKII would perform even better.

I'm looking for a 2-meter length, and unless I can find a Venom 3 for sale, my current considerations are:

Pangea AC 14 XL MKII (14 gauge, $225)
Pangea AC 9SE MKII (7 gauge, $250)
You know, unless I really decide to consider the $1k+ fancy-pants cables from Shunyata et al... it's just hard for me to seriously consider that type of money here. The flip, I suppose, is that these cables stay relevant across equipment upgrades... Without an infinite budget, would anyone still suggest I consider these cables over the two I listed? Where can they be purchased, anyway?

I have a PS Audio DirectStream Power Plant 12 being delivered on Tuesday which I will be using with a 3 meter Pangea AC 9SE MKII. I'd like to compare the stock DAVE cable with a possible upgrade. Any suggestions of which to try?

I'd really appreciate any thoughts! Thank you!


----------



## Triode User

thread said:


> Hello, DAVErs! I'm considering a power cable upgrade.
> 
> I hear good things about thicker-gauged power cables (7-9 AWG) with the DAVE, but many people report great results with the Shunyata Venom 3 (10 AWG). Still others are perfectly happy with the 14-gauge Pangea AC 14SE -- and I would imagine the AC 14 XL MKII would perform even better.
> 
> ...



My first thought is have you got a Blu2 or a Hugo Mscaler on order? Either of these will do far more for your sound quality than the PSAudio powerplant 12 or any of the cables.


----------



## thread

Triode User said:


> My first thought is have you got a Blu2 or a Hugo Mscaler on order? Either of these will do far more for your sound quality than the PSAudio powerplant 12 or any of the cables.



Thank you, absolutely. Yes, Hugo M Scaler is on order.


----------



## rgs9200m (Aug 5, 2018)

Thread, I use this and like it. (I've had it for years and it works well on other digital pieces):
http://www.telwire.net/cord/

I have Shunyatas too and the TelWire is very competitive and is very non-fagtiguing.


----------



## xxx1313 (Aug 5, 2018)

thread said:


> Hello, DAVErs! I'm considering a power cable upgrade.
> 
> I hear good things about thicker-gauged power cables (7-9 AWG) with the DAVE, but many people report great results with the Shunyata Venom 3 (10 AWG). Still others are perfectly happy with the 14-gauge Pangea AC 14SE -- and I would imagine the AC 14 XL MKII would perform even better.



While I personally cannot recommend the Pangea AC 14SE, Venom 3 is a fine power cable, imo. If your budget is larger, go for a used Shunyata Alpha HC (7 AWG). I love the full and dynamic "sound" of this cable between Dave and PS Audio P5. Alpha Analog should be fine too. Also Alpha Digital sounds quite good, but it limits dynamics (it is designed for digital only gear). The new Alpha NR power cable sounds much leaner between Dave als PS Audio P5.

Btw, I have already ordered an M-Scaler.


----------



## x RELIC x

ufospls2 said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I have an opportunity to give a DAVE a test listen for the first time very soon. I am using a Macbook Pro as my source, via the optical, and USB outputs. How do I know if these outputs are bit perfect? That has been mentioned as being important. Also, I will be using PCM files, what are the best settings for PCM? Sorry, I've never used the DAVE before, and don't know too much about its various settings. Thanks for the help



Tell us what software you use to play music so we can better help with settings. 

Basically, let the DAVE do all the sampling and output the file to the DAVE at the native sample rate in the original format. In other words, don’t up-sample / down-sample / convert on the Mackbook Pro. Also, use the PCM+ mode on the DAVE.

You can read the manual if you want to help answer any questions about the operation:

https://chordelectronics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Dave-User-Manual.pdf


----------



## rgs9200m

Depending on the headphone and the recording, I sometimes use bit-perfect, sometimes not (using EQ to calm any glare or other highs).
This is in JRiver. There is no single answer.
For me, after lots of A/B testing, I leave the HF filter off.
For .dsf files, I like DSD+. Most of these are fine in bit perfect, but even a few of these like some EQ.
 (FWIW, these dsd recordings sound quite excellent to me. But I love my 16/44 material in PCM+ also. There is a difference though.)

Again, play around. I'm sure you'll be very happy with DAVE. It's a sonic marvel.


----------



## thread (Aug 5, 2018)

xxx1313 said:


> While I personally cannot recommend the Pangea AC 14SE, Venom 3 is a fine power cable, imo. If your budget is larger, go for a used Shunyata Alpha HC (7 AWG). I love the full and dynamic "sound" of this cable between Dave and PS Audio P5. Alpha Analog should be fine too. Also Alpha Digital sounds quite good, but it limits dynamics (it is designed for digital only gear). The new Alpha NR power cable sounds much leaner between Dave als PS Audio P5.
> 
> Btw, I have already ordered an M-Scaler.



Thank you, @rgs9200m & @xxx1313 for these thoughts. It has been the recommendation for the thick gauge, "high current" power cables that has me considering the Pangea AC 9SE MKII (7 AWG) over the Pangea AC 14 XL MKII (14 AWG). Is this sound logic, or is most of the superiority of a cable like the Alpha HC having to do with other factors beyond simply the thickness of the conductors? The thing is... this cable costs over 4x the Pangeas - this seems to be really pushing the whole diminishing returns thing. (Maybe being patient for a used offering is a good option here...)

I was about to pull the trigger on the AC 14 XL MKII, but the thicker gauge and thus "high current" suitability of the 9SE has me thinking about that option, given some of the comments I've read.

Any guesses as to which of the two would be better for the DAVE? I realize there may not be a simple answer here... But I'm looking for any help in my decision 

I appreciate the recommendations I've received so far, and I'd love to hear any others folks may have! I'm just looking specifically at Pangea because they seem to be a great value.


----------



## Arcabonne

ecwl said:


> Chord digital amp won’t have analog input for the simple reason that it’ll require a proper ADC which Rob Watts is developing. It is possible (and I think probable) that his ADC combined with the digital amp would have better transparency than vinyl through traditional preamp and amp. But I suspect it’ll be another couple of years before we’d find out.
> 
> The bigger issue I think is that if you’re used to valve sound, you probably appreciate some second and third harmonic distortions from your amp and you’re not likely to get that from the digital amp so I’d say a class A amp is the way to go.



Thanks. I am considering the little Pass 30 watt for my Harbeth S.HL 5.


----------



## xxx1313

thread said:


> I was about to pull the trigger on the AC 14 XL MKII, but the thicker gauge and thus "high current" suitability of the 9SE has me thinking about that option, given some of the comments I've read.



I would think that noise reduction is more important than thicker gauge. If you go with a Pangea cable, be sure to compare it with a Venom 3 power cable. They are quite cheap, especially used, and in case that it does not convice you, also easy to sell with little to no loss.


----------



## rgs9200m (Aug 5, 2018)

My experience has been that the Shunyata digital-specific power cables are excellent. I have some going back to the Anaconda VX from 12 years ago and love the sound.
The gauge of a power cable is not really a reliable indicator of how it sounds, especially considering the synergy with the type of equipment is much more important.
The Shunyatas are indeed heavy and thick (but flexible, so they can be dealt with moderately easily).
I mention these because I have been using Shunyatas for a long time and I kind of know their character.
I have not heard about the other recommendations here.

I use a Tel-Wire on my Dave (right into the wall) because I wanted something easy to deal with on my desk and, after trying a few, decided this was a very non-fatiguing cord that does well with digital pieces.
Another inexpensive one to try is a TG audio one. But the TelWire is much better to my ears. And it's a bargain in my book.

But if I was going to spend a lot, I would try the Shunyata.

Again, I am not criticizing any of the others mentioned here, I'm just not familiar with them.

(If you are looking used, search for a Shunyata Anaconda VX or Anaconda Alpha Helix. They were around 10+ years ago and I think they sound great and use them now.)

I just googled and found this one for sale for $880 on ebay. I have no relationship with this, I just searched for it; its a great-sounding cord for digital (not amps):
https://www.ebay.com/i/292652842978?chn=ps

Note how it has held it's price after all these years. I think it's a classic. I use one myself now.


----------



## tunes (Aug 6, 2018)

thread said:


> Hello, DAVErs! I'm considering a power cable upgrade.
> 
> I hear good things about thicker-gauged power cables (7-9 AWG) with the DAVE, but many people report great results with the Shunyata Venom 3 (10 AWG). Still others are perfectly happy with the 14-gauge Pangea AC 14SE -- and I would imagine the AC 14 XL MKII would perform even better.
> 
> ...


Shouldn’t we ask RW if any power cable or AC regeneration makes any perceptible improvement in SQ, especially with the addition of the M-scaler?


----------



## STR-1

tunes said:


> Shouldn’t we ask RW if any power cable or AC regeneration makes any perceptible improvement in SQ, especially with the addition of the M-scaler?


Rob will of course have a view on this.  But at the end of the day, we won’t be listening to music with Rob’s ears or listening to a music system connected to Rob’s mains supply.  Those wondering about this should first try out some of the cheaper cables recommended by others on this thread or by their dealer, and if they can’t hear any change for the better, leave there.

I tried three upmarket mains cables with my DAVE before I got the Blu2, and each made a noticeable difference - one for the better and two for the worse.  The one I kept was an ex-demo Shunyata Alpha HC, a cable that had met favour in @romaz system at that time.  The DAVE is the only item in my system with a non-stock mains cable.  I also had on loan for a week a PS Audio P3 regenerator, and struggled to hear any change in SQ.


----------



## paul2qute

miketlse said:


> Ah well, it was worth a thought, but seemingly not possible.


Mike the speakers I've got are monitor audio apex 40 speakers, they 500 quid each and my Rel sub is nearly 2 grand, not state of the art but get a lovely sound from them


----------



## paul2qute

I'm listening to chill out ambient music now, goose bumps just takes me to another place, at my age I should be listening to Neil diamond and country lol but must be life in the old dog yet


----------



## musickid

I use to dance for 12 hours at a time to ambient music back in the 1990's.


----------



## ufospls2

Well, "going to hear the DAVE tomorrow" has turned into "going to pick up the DAVE and bring it home tomorrow."

Can't wait. Perhaps a bit silly to say I'll take it without hearing it, but I can still back out if I don't like it when I hear it tomorrow. Something tells me I'll be bringing it home though.....Looking forward to joining the club!


----------



## rgs9200m

Paul, you need to spin Hot August Night again. (Never gets old.)


----------



## paul2qute

musickid said:


> I use to dance for 12 hours at a time to ambient music back in the 1990's.


I use to go cream mate, the music changed my life


----------



## paul2qute

ufospls2 said:


> Well, "going to hear the DAVE tomorrow" has turned into "going to pick up the DAVE and bring it home tomorrow."
> 
> Can't wait. Perhaps a bit silly to say I'll take it without hearing it, but I can still back out if I don't like it when I hear it tomorrow. Something tells me I'll be bringing it home though.....Looking forward to joining the club!


Congratulations mate I couldn't be happier for you, wish I was in that club but hey I appreciate anyone that works hard to get the best gear


----------



## paul2qute

rgs9200m said:


> Paul, you need to spin Hot August Night again. (Never gets old.)


I'll give it a spin on my technics decks,I've got the Mrs flicking the light on and off


----------



## musickid

C.R.E.A.M.

Choose. Right. Easy. And. Mellow.


----------



## paul2qute

Come. Rest. Eat. A*** marriage


----------



## musickid

Thats the real meaning of cream not my invention Paul.....


----------



## paul2qute

musickid said:


> Thats the real meaning of cream not my invention Paul.....


I never knew that mate


----------



## miketlse

musickid said:


> C.R.E.A.M.
> 
> Choose. Right. Easy. And. Mellow.


No
Chord Rob Excellence And MScaler


----------



## paul2qute

miketlse said:


> No
> Chord Rob Excellence And MScaler


Always one smart arse lol, well impressed


----------



## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> Always one smart arse lol, well impressed


Well chilled, enjoying the dusk with a glass of Glen Grant, and just watched the ISS pass overhead.


----------



## paul2qute

miketlse said:


> Well chilled, enjoying the dusk with a glass of Glen Grant, and just watched the ISS pass overhead.


How much is it to get this device when you know it's going over mate?


----------



## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> How much is it to get this device when you know it's going over mate?


Confused me.
Device dave, iss, Glen grant?


----------



## paul2qute

miketlse said:


> Confused me.
> Device dave, iss, Glen grant?


Lol now you are bragging.. How do you know the space station is flying over?


----------



## miketlse

That clarifies things.
When I lived in the UK, I used the NASA tracker, then typed in my location, and the tracker would list the days when the ISS would be visible to me, the time, and for how many minutes (usually about 6 mins max).
Recently I use the ESA tracker http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/H...tion/Where_is_the_International_Space_Station
Here in SW France, we have aircraft fly over every minute or so, so tonight when I saw a bright light, the first checks were no a/c noise and no navigation lights, which removed civil aircraft from the equation.
I made a mental note of the approximate trajectory, and checked the ESA tracker.
Yes the ISS had just passed over, on the similar trajectory, and was now over the Med, but still visible from my location. 

Just google ISS tracker, and there are many links.


----------



## iDesign (Aug 6, 2018)

Where has the decision landed about the necessity of using devices likes the Sonore ultraRendu, SOtM sMS-200ultra et. al. versus using a laptop's USB output with the DAVE? Many members of site have posted about using these devices with good results while even Rob Watts himself uses the DAVE directly from a laptop. Are these devices truly necessary?


----------



## auricgoldfinger

auricgoldfinger said:


> I received a lightly used, mint condition DAVE today.  I am having an issue using it with Roon.  My setup is modified switch => sMS-200ultra => tX-USBultra => DAC.  Previously, I used HQPlayer and Roon (NAA mode) with an Auralic Vega and never had an issue.  With DAVE, Roon (Roon Ready mode) only sees the sMS-200 endpoint on the network only when I remove the tX-USBultra from the system.  With the tX-USBultra in place, Roon does not see an audio device and will not play.
> 
> All I did was swap the Vega for the DAVE.  I am using the same power and USB cables.  Nothing else changed.
> 
> Does anyone have any troubleshooting ideas?



After much time and angst, I finally determined that the tX-USBultra was not providing USB power for the DAC.  Now that the power has been enabled, Roon sees the sMS-200ultra, and DAVE is able to play music.  I am greatly relieved to have this troubleshooting episode behind me so I can start listening to music again.

Thanks to @dakabali, @ecwl, and @elviscaprice for your assistance!  I am very grateful.


----------



## jrfmd

AndrewOld said:


> How could a server connected with a decent optical output possibly transmit RF noise to a Blu2 or an M Scaler?


I dont think the blu2 has an optical input
wish it did
JRF


----------



## jrfmd

iDesign said:


> Where has the decision landed about the necessity of using devices likes the Sonore ultraRendu, SOtM sMS-200ultra et. al. versus using a laptop's USB output with the DAVE? Many members of site have posted about using these devices with good results while even Rob Watts himself uses the DAVE directly from a laptop. Are these devices truly necessary?



since the error rate of a usb system is guaranteed to be is 1 bit in 10 to the 12th  bits, it seems to me that (aside from external electrical interference) you can expect to lose (or gain) a bit once every 10 days of constant use. this couldn't possibly be audible and doesnt require fixing.  I assume adding more hardware in the chain can only add to the error rate (but it probably still wont be near audible)
Jeff


----------



## GryphonGuy

iDesign said:


> Where has the decision landed about the necessity of using devices likes the Sonore ultraRendu, SOtM sMS-200ultra et. al. versus using a laptop's USB output with the DAVE? Many members of site have posted about using these devices with good results while even Rob Watts himself uses the DAVE directly from a laptop. *Are these devices truly necessary?*



The devices you mention (UltraRendu and SMS-200 ultra) are ethernet-to-USB converters. If you cannot put your computer on or near your hi-fi rack (this is my situation) or simply wish to use ethernet's signal integrity protocols, and you wish to use a USB input to your DAC, then you will *need *an ethernet to USB converter and the two devices you mention are amongst the best on the market if not the best at the time of writing.

Regards
GG


----------



## iDesign (Aug 6, 2018)

GryphonGuy said:


> The devices you mention (UltraRendu and SMS-200 ultra) are ethernet-to-USB converters. If you cannot put your computer on or near your hi-fi rack (this is my situation) or simply wish to use ethernet's signal integrity protocols, and you wish to use a USB input to your DAC, then you will *need *an ethernet to USB converter and the two devices you mention are amongst the best on the market if not the best at the time of writing.
> 
> Regards
> GG


Yes, but the question is what technical improvements do they offer, if any, versus directly connecting a 2015 MacBook Pro via USB with the MagSafe power cable disconnected? I have read conflicting reports about the necessity of these devices with the DAVE.


----------



## GryphonGuy

iDesign said:


> Yes, but the question is what technical improvements do they offer, if any, versus directly connecting a 2015 MacBook Pro via USB with the MagSafe power cable disconnected? I have read conflicting reports about the necessity of these devices with the DAVE.



I prefer the UltraRendu powered by Uptone LPS-1.2 and ghent audio Gotham DC cable over my PC's direct USB connection. I am not technically minded but I guess my PC's USB output is polluted by electrical noise whereas the sound from my DAVE is sublime with the UltraRendu solution over ethernet (and ultimately USB) in my installation.

Regards
GG


----------



## darkless

I'd be hard pressed to tell a difference between feeding my DAVE from optical vs feeding it from USB using an ISO REGEN powered by an LPS-1.2.

Using the robust stock DC cable for the LPS-1.2 rather than a small CCTV male/male DC adapter pretty much eliminated the differences between the optical and USB paths.


----------



## sasaki99

Is it worth to get the Dave in 2018? I have hugo2, idk if it a good go to upgrade to Dave at this time. Please share your opinion.


----------



## Triode User

sasaki99 said:


> Is it worth to get the Dave in 2018? I have hugo2, idk if it a good go to upgrade to Dave at this time. Please share your opinion.



I would say it depends on what you are going to use it for. If you will always use it with an external amplifier or if the power output of the Dave is more than enough for your headphones then the transparency of the Dave is unbeaten and Dave is still better than any other option in the Chord line up including the TT2. However if you want more power either for headphones or to use direct with efficient speakers then TT2 is better, not in terms of absolute sound but in terms of it's power output.

Rob Watts has previously said that he is not even contemplating a Dave 2 at the moment because it is supreme and will remain that way for some time to come.


----------



## simorag

sasaki99 said:


> Is it worth to get the Dave in 2018? I have hugo2, idk if it a good go to upgrade to Dave at this time. Please share your opinion.



In 2018, knowing how reportedly "transformative" is the M Scaler even when one starts from a DAVE, in my opinion it makes sense to buy a DAVE only if one is willing / has the budget to add the M Scaler (Hugo or Blu2 depending on budget and usage model).

So, we are talking about a 12.5kEuro budget at list price, and you are at the top of the Chord DAC ecosystem. You may consider if there are other options from other vendors at a 12.5k price point, especially if you don't need the 2W digital amplifier built-in the DAVE.

If you are on a fixed (DAVE) budget, some have offered that the upcoming Hugo TT2 + Hugo M Scaler combo is going to provide a better value in terms of sound quality and versatility, especially if you can exploit the higher output power of the TT2.

Of course, an advantage of buying a DAVE in 2018 is that you can find very good deals in the 2nd hand market if you are open to that and a bit patient, and build a DAVE + Hugo M Scaler or even (in a few months from now, when the used Blu2 prices will drop further) even a DAVE + Blu MkII combo for a price similar to a new DAVE alone.

Another upgrade path would be to add the M Scaler to your Hugo2, as many have reported an huge sound quality increase, and upgrade the Hugo2 to the TT2 or DAVE next.

Just my 2C...


----------



## audio_1 (Aug 7, 2018)

simorag said:


> So, we are talking about a 12.5kEuro budget at list price, and you are at the top of the Chord DAC ecosystem. You may consider if there are other options from other vendors at a 12.5k price point, especially if you don't need the 2W digital amplifier built-in the DAVE.



There are no other options from other manufacturers with similar sound quality to Dave and Blu 2 or the m-scaler at any price, let alone 12.5k euro. Rob Watts is the only person doing DA conversion correctly with long tap length reconstruction filters in my opinion. People don't appear to appreciate the technology and specifications of Chord DACs or realise the sound quality that Rob has achieved. If this is not immediately apparent there is something wrong with the system that Dave and Blu 2 are being played through.


----------



## sasaki99

Thanks for the inputs. My setup is 2CH, will mainly use the Dave as a dac only. Knowing that Dac technology changes really fast like 4-5 years cycle. The Dave is on the declining stage but still it's the price benefit for second hand market. You can find the Dave at $7000 these days, adding $3000 more you could get the TT2+M-scaler which is newer technology. but idk if the newer is better tho.


----------



## miketlse (Aug 7, 2018)

Triode User said:


> I would say it depends on what you are going to use it for. If you will always use it with an external amplifier or if the power output of the Dave is more than enough for your headphones then the transparency of the Dave is unbeaten and Dave is still better than any other option in the Chord line up including the TT2. However if you want more power either for headphones or to use direct with efficient speakers then TT2 is better, not in terms of absolute sound but in terms of it's power output.
> 
> Rob Watts has previously said that he is not even contemplating a Dave 2 at the moment because it is supreme and will remain that way for some time to come.



Just to extend this slightly for @sasaki99
Just suppose Rob was to start contemplating a Dave 2, how could he improve it?

upscaling? at the moment the improvements in upscaling are being made using the external Blu2 and the Hugo MScaler. Rob has posted that his experiments with combining Dave plus a MScaler in one case, generate too much electrical noise. A good indicator that Dave 2 would not feature an integral MScaler - so hard to visualize any modification to the Dave upscaling, unless Rob removed all the current upscaling (to free up FPGA cores) and declared that the Dave2 would be fed by the external MScaler.
noise shapers? Dave already has the most noise shapers in the Chord range, but it is plausible that he could add further noise shapers, just to enable Dave 2 to maintain a gap with the rest of the chord range
output power? Dave used to be the most powerful dac, enabling it to direct drive efficient speakers, with great transparency. The TT2 has now incorporated elements of the power pulse digital amplifiers, to enable it to direct drive more inefficient/larger speakers. It is plausible that Dave 2 could also incorporate the power pulse amplifier technology
nothing else jumps to mind
Rob has posted that even adding a usb output to the MScaler, would have added 6 months to the development/testing time.
Based on that the development/testing of Dave 2 would probably take over a year, and deliver only a small incremental improvement in functionality, mainly for owners who wanted to direct drive larger inefficient speakers.
I can understand why Rob/Chord may feel there is no great urgency to start thinking about Dave 2, when there are already enough other products/projects that need time spending on them, to produce step changes in performance/capability, eg digital amps, davina, 2go, and generate more sales.

You will be using the Dave to feed an amplifier anyway, so you would benefit little from the Dave 2 that I visualise
So no point delaying for a couple of years


----------



## Triode User (Aug 7, 2018)

@miketlse  Yes, thanks, good extra background thinking and explanation to help anyone considering buying a Dave.


----------



## maxh22

I find it interesting how even though Rob says Dave is the final word in transparency and depth resolution he is no longer bringing it along with him on trips. TT2 is now filling that role along with the new Hugo M Scaler. 

Since actions speak louder than words I’m getting the hunch that either TT2 is close enough to Dave for him or he just prefers the higher power output with his portable hotel room speakers?

Anyways, I’m looking forward to TT2 vs Dave comparisons in due time before I make my choice..


----------



## OK-Guy (Aug 7, 2018)

Max... it maybe the case that the TT2/Mscaler is more compact than Dave for Rob's travels, afterall he would have to take Blu-2 or Mscaler with him if he was taking Dave for the same sonic nirvana. It could also be the case that Rob just likes to listen to the products he's had a hand in designing... first time I heard Dave it was just a board with a load of electronics, it was awesome listening to the future in development.


----------



## elviscaprice

Also, DAVE runs off of AC.  Be kind of difficult on the airplane to use mobile.


----------



## Triode User

Also, Rob gets paid for each Chord unit that is sold. TT2 and Hugo MScaler are the new kids on the block so he is bound to push them. That's not a cynical view, it's just life.


----------



## ufospls2 (Aug 8, 2018)

Hey Guys,

I got a chance to hear a piece of gear I thought I would never get my ears on today. The Chord Electronics DAVE. I’ve had both good and bad experiences with Chord, but the DAVE always fascinated me with its out there looks and the reports of awesome sound quality. My Mojo experience was both positive and negative, I really liked its sound, but the battery died, and it took me forever to get it replaced.

I have always figured sort out the headphones first, then the amp, then the DAC. However, after having to sell all my gear recently, I have decided to go the opposite direction in terms of rebuilding a set up. I had a budget set, and had to work within it. I am in the UK currently, and figured I might as well try to find a dealer of the DAVE, so I could give it a listen. I found one an hour and a half away. I was completely honest with the shop that I wouldn’t be purchasing, I just wanted to listen. They were happy to let me listen, but tempted me with an offer of their demo model. They didn’t have a price set. I asked how much they wanted for it out of sheer curiosity, and got the reply “well how much are you willing to pay.” I threw out a nonsense number, and to my utter surprise, they said yes.

To cut a long story short, I went in with an open mind, and left with an empty wallet. It has eaten up far more of my budget than I thought would go to the DAC, but…damn. I _never_ thought I would spend this much on a DAC.

The DAVE has detail, clarity, and definition I haven’t heard before. It is actually _really_ impressive.

I don’t want to comment too much on sound as I haven’t spent a very long time with it yet, and don’t have my favourite headphones at the moment (Abyss Phi.)

So yeah, so far? DAVE gets two thumbs up


----------



## Rob Watts

maxh22 said:


> I find it interesting how even though Rob says Dave is the final word in transparency and depth resolution he is no longer bringing it along with him on trips. TT2 is now filling that role along with the new Hugo M Scaler.
> 
> Since actions speak louder than words I’m getting the hunch that either TT2 is close enough to Dave for him or he just prefers the higher power output with his portable hotel room speakers?
> 
> Anyways, I’m looking forward to TT2 vs Dave comparisons in due time before I make my choice..



There is a more pragmatic reason;  chord are still testing TT2 and I need to bring a unit with me, together with my programming tool in case of updates. It's looking less likely now, as no change had been requested for some weeks now. I can then get back to carrying a Dave and the Hugo M scaler, assuming that no demos of TT2 are needed on my travels....


----------



## Triode User

ufospls2 said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> I got a chance to hear a piece of gear I thought I would never get my ears on today. The Chord Electronics DAVE. I’ve had both good and bad experiences with Chord, but the DAVE always fascinated me with its out there looks and the reports of awesome sound quality. My Mojo experience was both positive and negative, I really liked its sound, but the battery died, and it took me forever to get it replaced.
> 
> ...



Nice!! Have fun.


----------



## maxh22

Rob Watts said:


> There is a more pragmatic reason;  chord are still testing TT2 and I need to bring a unit with me, together with my programming tool in case of updates. It's looking less likely now, as no change had been requested for some weeks now. I can then get back to carrying a Dave and the Hugo M scaler, assuming that no demos of TT2 are needed on my travels....



Ahhhhhh makes sense. I assumed you were finished with the TT2 project long ago and you just preferred it for whatever reason.


----------



## paul2qute

I don't know how a hi-fi show can work


miketlse said:


> Just to extend this slightly for @sasaki99
> Just suppose Rob was to start contemplating a Dave 2, how could he improve it?
> 
> upscaling? at the moment the improvements in upscaling are being made using the external Blu2 and the Hugo MScaler. Rob has posted that his experiments with combining Dave plus a MScaler in one case, generate too much electrical noise. A good indicator that Dave 2 would not feature an integral MScaler - so hard to visualize any modification to the Dave upscaling, unless Rob removed all the current upscaling (to free up FPGA cores) and declared that the Dave2 would be fed by the external MScaler.
> ...


Wasn't it the Chord M scaler not the Hugo TT 2 that would of added six months to production to have a USB connection


----------



## SearchOfSub

maxh22 said:


> I find it interesting how even though Rob says Dave is the final word in transparency and depth resolution he is no longer bringing it along with him on trips. TT2 is now filling that role along with the new Hugo M Scaler.
> 
> Since actions speak louder than words I’m getting the hunch that either TT2 is close enough to Dave for him or he just prefers the higher power output with his portable hotel room speakers?
> 
> Anyways, I’m looking forward to TT2 vs Dave comparisons in due time before I make my choice..




I hope this is the case as I will be picking up the TT2 soon!


----------



## SearchOfSub

Rob Watts said:


> There is a more pragmatic reason;  chord are still testing TT2 and I need to bring a unit with me, together with my programming tool in case of updates. It's looking less likely now, as no change had been requested for some weeks now. I can then get back to carrying a Dave and the Hugo M scaler, assuming that no demos of TT2 are needed on my travels....




Rob Ican you do all a favor and cut the price down on the TT2? I wonder why TT2 costs $1000 more retail than TT1 when it was retail new.


----------



## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> I don't know how a hi-fi show can work
> 
> Wasn't it the Chord M scaler not the Hugo TT 2 that would of added six months to production to have a USB connection


Thanks, you are probably right there, so I will update the original post.


----------



## paul2qute

miketlse said:


> Thanks, you are probably right there, so I will update the original post.


Now who's the smart arse


----------



## paul2qute

M scaler to Dave and Hugo TT 2 by coaxial only,twin bnc


----------



## ray-dude

miketlse said:


> Just to extend this slightly for @sasaki99
> Just suppose Rob was to start contemplating a Dave 2, how could he improve it?
> 
> upscaling? at the moment the improvements in upscaling are being made using the external Blu2 and the Hugo MScaler. Rob has posted that his experiments with combining Dave plus a MScaler in one case, generate too much electrical noise. A good indicator that Dave 2 would not feature an integral MScaler - so hard to visualize any modification to the Dave upscaling, unless Rob removed all the current upscaling (to free up FPGA cores) and declared that the Dave2 would be fed by the external MScaler.
> ...



Only other ones on my list would be going from 20 pulse element  arrays to something like 32  (like the Davina), and  the  power supply (higher current capacity, quieter, etc)  I  am very keen to hear the TT2  to get a better sense of what kind of impact the super caps will have on dynamics and transients (vs DAVE  and vs Hugo2).  

Also, potentially a proprietary  optical interconnect  scheme  that  can handle mScaler  data  rates with  perfect  electrical isolation.  

As a long shot, I'd love support for more than 2 channels (anticipating a future digital cross over, and for movies/tv)

All that being said, if one has mScalers and a full line of digital amps  (from 2W to 500W) with the above features, do we need a DAVE2?


----------



## Triode User (Aug 7, 2018)

SearchOfSub said:


> I hope this is the case as I will be picking up the TT2 soon!



1. RW has explained that he is carrying TT2 with him in case he is required to modify any thing. As soon as this is no longer required he will revert to taking Dave.

2. Calm down. TT2 is due ‘autumn’. In the uk we still have mid summer temperatures and with the heatwave forecast to continue until October. At this rate autumn might not come until February 2019.


----------



## paul2qute

Triode User said:


> 1. RW has explained that he is carrying TT2 with him in case he is required to modify any code. As soon as this is no longer required he will revert to taking Dave.
> 
> 2. Calm down. TT2 is due ‘autumn’. In the uk we still have mid summer temperatures and with the heatwave forecast to continue until October. At this rate autumn might not come until February 2019.


I'm glad about the weather in some ways but can't listen to my headphones as its too hot and I ain't sweating while using them


----------



## Triode User

paul2qute said:


> I'm glad about the weather in some ways but can't listen to my headphones as its too hot and I ain't sweating while using them



It is half past nine now and the temperature is only just bearable. I have a fellow HiFi nut coming to test systems at 12 noon tomorrow and with class A monoblocs it is going to be hot.


----------



## paul2qute (Aug 7, 2018)

Triode User said:


> It is half past nine now and the temperature is only just bearable. I have a fellow HiFi nut coming to test systems at 12 noon tomorrow and with class A monoblocs it is going to be hot.


Big Krell Monoblocs ?remember them, never heard them but they were huge.I can imagine ppl flicking the power switch with a very long stick in case it blew up, American made ya never know lol joke


----------



## miketlse

Triode User said:


> It is half past nine now and the temperature is only just bearable. I have a fellow HiFi nut coming to test systems at 12 noon tomorrow and with class A monoblocs it is going to be hot.


Today is the first day that the anti-cyclone has moved in SW france, so we have a much lower temperature plus wind, but the thunderstorms did not appear.
It has felt like a blessed relief from nearly three weeks of 'feels like 35C' at 11am, and higher during the afternoon. The ambient temperature is so hot, that the Hugo 2 is running the hottest I have felt it, but no thermal shutdowns luckily.
Full size headphones do feel sweaty, so it is speakers or iems.
At least the temperature does drop to 25C at night, but the only way to sleep is open the window, and risk the mozzies.

Those monoblocs will get hot tomorrow. 
Good luck, so prepare plenty of iced tea or similar to drink.


----------



## musickid

With large chord units like dave/blu2/mscaler etc is there anything that needs to be done to ensure the units are safely grounded for someone living in the UK like myself. Or are they 100% safe to use out of the box? thanks MK.


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## SearchOfSub (Aug 7, 2018)

Triode User said:


> 1. RW has explained that he is carrying TT2 with him in case he is required to modify any thing. As soon as this is no longer required he will revert to taking Dave.
> 
> 2. Calm down. TT2 is due ‘autumn’. In the uk we still have mid summer temperatures and with the heatwave forecast to continue until October. At this rate autumn might not come until February 2019.





I hope so not!


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## Mojo ideas

Triode User said:


> 1. RW has explained that he is carrying TT2 with him in case he is required to modify any thing. As soon as this is no longer required he will revert to taking Dave.
> 
> 2. Calm down. TT2 is due ‘autumn’. In the uk we still have mid summer temperatures and with the heatwave forecast to continue until October. At this rate autumn might not come until February 2019.


Yes your right, obviously I travel extensively with Rob and he brings units to write code and to prove it and the units in proper use situations until we are fully happy before releasing them it’s a lot of extra weight for him to carry but the extra time he has when traveling with the units is always beneficial though sometimes at airport security it raises a few eyebrows.


----------



## ray-dude

When I made my day trip from San Diego to Dallas to audition some speakers, all I had in my bag was my Dave and Blu2 and a s*** ton of ferrited cables. Needless to say, quite a few security folks came over to take a gander


----------



## simorag

audio_1 said:


> There are no other options from other manufacturers with similar sound quality to Dave and Blu 2 or the m-scaler at any price, let alone 12.5k euro.



As a happy DAVE owner with a Hugo M Scaler on order, your words are like music to my ears 

That said, since I don't have first-hand experience with other top DACs in the 12.5kEur range, new or 2nd hand (dCS, MSB, Aqua Formula, NAGRA, Merging, Aries Cerat, Lampizator, TotalDAC just to name a few), I feel it would be advisable - and a lot of fun! - to evaluate alternatives if one is in the position to commit on spending such a whopping kind of cash on a component.

Has anybody had the chance to compare the DAVE, or better Blu2DAVE, with some of the big-money DACs?

P.S.: in case it is inappropriate to make this kind of question in the official DAVE thread, moderators or you guys long time forumers please let me know and I'll delete this post


----------



## rgs9200m

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831343/page-251#post-14361151

(Re: other high end DACs)


----------



## Triode User

simorag said:


> Has anybody had the chance to compare the DAVE, or better Blu2DAVE, with some of the big-money DACs?



Not perhaps 'big money' but I had a Bricasti M1 SE DAC (£10,800) and a Dave at the same time. In my opinion the Dave was streets ahead of the Bricasti and then when the Blu Mk2 arrived it was even more so and the Bricasti went. I did not miss it.


----------



## audio_1

simorag said:


> As a happy DAVE owner with a Hugo M Scaler on order, your words are like music to my ears
> 
> That said, since I don't have first-hand experience with other top DACs in the 12.5kEur range, new or 2nd hand (dCS, MSB, Aqua Formula, NAGRA, Merging, Aries Cerat, Lampizator, TotalDAC just to name a few), I feel it would be advisable - and a lot of fun! - to evaluate alternatives if one is in the position to commit on spending such a whopping kind of cash on a component.
> 
> ...



It is impossible for other DACs to sound as good as the Dave and Blu 2 / M-scaler as they have short tap length filters and don't reconstruction the original analog wave form correctly. The other issue is generally digital volume controls affect dynamics unless very little attenuation is required. Anything more that 20 dB and the DAC sounds flat. The DAC then requires various analog gain setting to match different systems. Analog volume controls affect transparency. This is why these DACs can sound better with a pre-amp. The great thing about Chord DACs is that they have properly designed digital volume controls, don't require a pre-amp and can feed power-amps directly.


----------



## sasaki99

Please dont find my comment as an offense to the Dave, I love chord products. I really admire the Chord company marketing team. When we talk about sound whether it's good or bad. It's really a subjective opinion which depends on the person perception or preference. The chord made a new standard to the market by adding the term "Tab length", it's a tool to measure the subjective term of good or bad. This really outplayed other competitors because people seems to perceived the "Tab length" as a performance level for a dac. Haha idk if others are like me but I was trapped by that Tab length and became a Chord's customer. Well played tho.


----------



## dakabali

simorag said:


> Has anybody had the chance to compare the DAVE, or better Blu2DAVE, with some of the big-money DACs?


It is definitely not a big-money competitor but I've got a Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ on which I spent big-money to improve. I bought the Mutec MC3+ reclockers, the Mytec balanced headphone extension cable etc. and I managed to bring the SQ close to DAVE's. Then Blu2 arrived and the gap became huge again. Since then the only devices besides the BluDAVE in my chain have been the Entreq boxes to ground the PS Audio P10, the Mutec REF10 to provide masterclock to the SOtM boxes plus a LAN switch and my LPSU I built based on some LT3045 Stammheim boards.
All the USB reclockers, filters etc are in my 2nd system with the Brooklyn+ A fine tuned system comparable with DAVE imo. It has no chance agains the BluDAVE.


----------



## S Crowther

audio_1 said:


> There are no other options from other manufacturers with similar sound quality to Dave and Blu 2 or the m-scaler at any price, let alone 12.5k euro. Rob Watts is the only person doing DA conversion correctly with long tap length reconstruction filters in my opinion. People don't appear to appreciate the technology and specifications of Chord DACs or realise the sound quality that Rob has achieved. If this is not immediately apparent there is something wrong with the system that Dave and Blu 2 are being played through.


Not sure about that. You have to consider the ladder DACS.


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## ufospls2 (Aug 8, 2018)

Ok, so I've got about ten hours in with the DAVE, so these are very initial impressions. I always find initial impressions fairly indicative how I will enjoy a bit of gear, and as time goes on, you notice the smaller stuff that you either enjoy, or that pisses you off.

I'm not that experienced with DACs, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I'll mostly compare the DAVE with the PS Audio Perfectwave MK1->MK2, as thats my previous desktop DAC.

As I said in my previous post, there is detail, clarity, and definition that I haven't heard before. The DAVE is less bright than the PWD. I hate to say this, as I'm A) not that experienced with Analog and B) I don't own a turntable anymore, but this is the first time in my life where I said to myself "wow, this sounds like analog." The sound is neither bright nor dark, there is no sibilance. It is like there is more space around the individual notes than I have heard before, and I'm not sure how to describe it well. It just sounds "_right." _The sound is smooth, but not overly so.

In terms of soundstage, I've always read people say "oh wow the DAVE transforms the Utopia, it gives it a huge soundstage!" I'm not buying that. I mean I'll give the DAVE a listen with a Utopia some day and find out for myself, but right now, I haven't noticed it influence soundstage either positively or negatively. It just presents the music as it is recorded. Note, I'm listening with the crossfeed turned off, as I'm trying to evaluate the DAVE in its simplest form.

The edges of notes have this...weight(?) to them that the PWD doesn't have. Like they are less sharp, and a tiny bit rounder.

The detail, for however cliche this might sound, is phenomenal, both micro and macro. What might be called ultra micro detail round these parts is also the best I have ever heard.

So thats what I've gotten from the DAVE in the first ten hours of listening. To say it is a "...just one more song..." device is an understatement. I stayed up _far_ too late last night listening to tunes


----------



## paul2qute

simorag said:


> As a happy DAVE owner with a Hugo M Scaler on order, your words are like music to my ears
> 
> That said, since I don't have first-hand experience with other top DACs in the 12.5kEur range, new or 2nd hand (dCS, MSB, Aqua Formula, NAGRA, Merging, Aries Cerat, Lampizator, TotalDAC just to name a few), I feel it would be advisable - and a lot of fun! - to evaluate alternatives if one is in the position to commit on spending such a whopping kind of cash on a component.
> 
> ...


Google review of blu 2 and Dave, one bloke reckons that both are right up there but some other dacs he was using and far more expensive he thought was slightly better,his opinion not mine


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## simorag (Aug 8, 2018)

audio_1 said:


> It is impossible for other DACs to sound as good as the Dave and Blu 2 / M-scaler as they have short tap length filters and don't reconstruction the original analog wave form correctly. The other issue is generally digital volume controls affect dynamics unless very little attenuation is required. Anything more that 20 dB and the DAC sounds flat. The DAC then requires various analog gain setting to match different systems. Analog volume controls affect transparency. This is why these DACs can sound better with a pre-amp. The great thing about Chord DACs is that they have properly designed digital volume controls, don't require a pre-amp and can feed power-amps directly.



I appreciate the effort of assessing the DAVE / M-Scaler top notch performance on a technical basis, and it is clear that you are a very knowledgeable person – for sure much more than myself, for that matter.

Usually I am a bit skeptical when a product is claimed to be “the best” based on its design philosophy, or even based on actual measurements, especially when it comes to audio.

I see many controversial points on such an approach, for example:

-        The DAC performance is of course based on technology architecture (Delta-Sigma, R2R, FPGA, etc.), but largely on its implementation as well – not all delta-sigma DACs are created equal, for instance;

-        As technology evolves (new materials, electronic components, processes, algorithms, ...), some designs which were believed to be outdated or fundamentally flawed become attractive again (see ladder DACs);

-        No definitive and quantitative proof exist – to my knowledge – about physical measurements and perceived sound quality relationship, partly because of the largely unknown correlation between which quantities are translated by the human apparatus (ears, brain, etc.) into “faithful reproduction” of a real soundscape, and how.

So, even if as an engineer I tend to be an objectivist in most cases, I have come to accept that as long as audio gear is concerned – and especially at the very high-end – I need to listen before I can decide what I like more.

When I can’t listen prior to buying, I personally prefer to take the risk of forming a judgement based on other’s subjective and fallible reviews and impressions – especially from trusted fellow enthusiasts with whom I believe I have affinity of taste, rather than relying on technical specifications.

In the case of the DAVE (and Blu2) there is no dilemma, since both the technical features and the reviews from owners and professionals speak highly about the product. I, for one, have become a DAVE evangelist among my audiophile friends.

But, there are other DACs out there which are very well regarded, and I am open to hear by folks who tried them thoroughly and compared to the Chord stack that they can compete or even outclass DAVE + Blu2 in their opinion, just out of curiosity.

Of course, having committed to Chord ecosystem, I am much happier when I find reviews in favor of Blu2DAVE vs crazy expensive stuff like dCS or even MSB


----------



## audio_1

simorag said:


> Of course, having committed to Chord ecosystem, I am much happier when I find reviews in favor of Blu2DAVE vs crazy expensive stuff like dCS or even MSB



Before I purchased the Dave, I did an A-B comparison with the dCS Vivaldi. I have also heard the MSB select DAC with femto 33 clock and mono power bases a number of times. I preferred the Dave & Blu 2. It is more dynamic, much faster and just plays music better in my opinion. DACs with off the shelf DAC chips don't really compare.


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## paul2qute

audio_1 said:


> Before I purchased the Dave, I did an A-B comparison with the dCS Vivaldi. I have also heard the MSB select DAC with femto 33 clock and mono power bases a number of times. I preferred the Dave & Blu 2. It is more dynamic, much faster and just plays music better in my opinion. DACs with off the shelf DAC chips don't really compare.


Always wanted to know the comparison Dave against Dcs Vivaldi


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## paul2qute (Aug 8, 2018)

I did a test last night, I put a sticker on my x box x one saying in black marker Chord Hugo TT 2 and played some tunes, Mrs got better ears than me so I asked her if it sounds better with the sticker on or off and she said on,we were body popping all night.Sorry for talking about the hugo TT 2 in here, I know it's the Dave forum,but we all stitched from the same cloth


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## paul2qute (Aug 8, 2018)

Rob I've looked at the Dave from the inside and I've noticed the power supply and other parts of the circuit are in different departments separated by aluminium walls, is that intentional?Also noticed crimped connections and was wondering would direct solder connection sound better, obviously your building to a budget


----------



## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> Rob I've looked at the Dave from the inside and I've noticed the power supply and other parts of the circuit are in different departments separated by aluminium walls, is that intentional?Also noticed crimped connections and was wondering would direct solder connection sound better, obviously your building to a budget


I suspect that is to prevent RFI from one part of the Dave being picked up by other sections.
I think Rob has posted that even soldered joints add small amounts of inductance and capacitance into the signal path, so maybe that was a factor.
Of course I could be wrong, and crimping was used because it was cheaper. LOL


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## paul2qute (Aug 8, 2018)

miketlse said:


> I suspect that is to prevent RFI from one part of the Dave being picked up by other sections.
> I think Rob has posted that even soldered joints add small amounts of inductance and capacitance into the signal path, so maybe that was a factor.
> Of course I could be wrong, and crimping was used because it was cheaper. LOL


Hey mate I know I'm gonna get slaughtered for this question, it's all the coding noise shaper and filter that makes the difference but I just wanted to know, I love Rob watts, wish I met him at the show, don't think he would feel the same as I would be pecking his head for advice like everyone else, but I feel it's an interesting question.When your great at something someone always wants something from you,but what could we ever give back?


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## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> Hey mate I know I'm gonna get slaughtered for this question, it's all the coding noise shaper and filter that makes the difference but I just wanted to know, I love Rob watts, wish I met him at the show, don't think he would feel the same as I would be pecking his head for advice like everyone else, but I feel it's an interesting question.When your great at something someone always wants something from you,but what could we ever give back?


You give back more than you can ever suspect. 
Rob comes across as very generous with his time and help.
In return all designers are delighted to receive feedback, about how their designs/products were received and enjoyed.
Some user questions, are the trigger events, for the designer asking themselves whether they could implement the solution, in the next generation of the product.


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## paul2qute (Aug 8, 2018)

miketlse said:


> You give back more than you can ever suspect.
> Rob comes across as very generous with his time and help.
> In return all designers are delighted to receive feedback, about how their designs/products were received and enjoyed.
> Some user questions, are the trigger events, for the designer asking themselves whether they could implement the solution, in the next generation of the product.


Can I ask when Dave was built best dac in the world and John Franks wanted to build the best amp to get the best out of the Dave which he has recently done, but all them ppl that bought the chord mono blocks that cost over 20 grand at least,how are they feeling right now because sometimes Chord  confuse the customer when it comes to amps what's best,analogue against digital in the same company?It's like Rob and John are going in different directions, digital or analogue?


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## Deftone

audio_1 said:


> It is impossible for other DACs to sound as good as the Dave and Blu 2 / M-scaler as they have short tap length filters and don't reconstruction the original analog wave form correctly. The other issue is generally digital volume controls affect dynamics unless very little attenuation is required. Anything more that 20 dB and the DAC sounds flat. The DAC then requires various analog gain setting to match different systems. Analog volume controls affect transparency. This is why these DACs can sound better with a pre-amp. The great thing about Chord DACs is that they have properly designed digital volume controls, don't require a pre-amp and can feed power-amps directly.



Something id love to do is sit down over a month period and really do a 3 way comparison of the Dave + MScaler / dCS Vivaldi / MSB Select 2.


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## audio_1

Deftone said:


> Something id love to do is sit down over a month period and really do a 3 way comparison of the Dave + MScaler / dCS Vivaldi / MSB Select 2.


There is no point, The Dave and Blu 2 / M-Scaler are way better.


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## Hifi Boy

They only thing you might want to consider comparing is the Aries Cerat Cassandra. One guy on this forum has it, I think it's @astrostar59.


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## Hifi Boy

miketlse said:


> You give back more than you can ever suspect.
> Rob comes across as very generous with his time and help.


 I don't think I've ever seen anyone put in as much time to answer questions related to his products as Rob does.


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## paul2qute (Aug 9, 2018)

When I was saying about Rob and John going in different directions with hi-fi I just meant with the amps,I haven't a clue what's better analogue or digital,my Arcam Avr 850 is G class so I assume  it's digital


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## Triode User

I’m not sure I support your thoughts about JF and RW going in different directions at all. For sure they come at it from a different background but there must be a common purpose and overlap of purpose and direction because otherwise the sum of their parts would not add up to more than they are individually in the way that it does. 

Oh, and class G is not digital.


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## Whazzzup

For me purely out of interest and not actionable, is la scala formula, total dac 7, Dave. Each have a different take on filters, ladders etc...


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## SearchOfSub (Aug 9, 2018)

sasaki99 said:


> Please dont find my comment as an offense to the Dave, I love chord products. I really admire the Chord company marketing team. When we talk about sound whether it's good or bad. It's really a subjective opinion which depends on the person perception or preference. The chord made a new standard to the market by adding the term "Tab length", it's a tool to measure the subjective term of good or bad. This really outplayed other competitors because people seems to perceived the "Tab length" as a performance level for a dac. Haha idk if others are like me but I was trapped by that Tab length and became a Chord's customer. Well played tho.




I think Chord is the best solid state sound you can have. There is always a sense of musicality, refinement, and analog in nature in all of their models including the Mojo!
Tab length was only worth reading because the DAC sounded good when I played it. I used to just take it with a grain of salt but after a few Chord products it's starting to get into people's head.


----------



## SearchOfSub

Mojo ideas said:


> Yes your right, obviously I travel extensively with Rob and he brings units to write code and to prove it and the units in proper use situations until we are fully happy before releasing them it’s a lot of extra weight for him to carry but the extra time he has when traveling with the units is always beneficial though sometimes at airport security it raises a few eyebrows.




Why is Hugo TT2 priced $1000 more than the original Hugo TT? Aren't you guys richer now so it should be easier to produce in bigger volume and used to the technology so it should cut costs why more expensive?


----------



## SCBob

I am a recent DAVE owner and have a lot to learn about it. Is it worth buying hi res music files for DAVE or are Redbook CDs burned to the computer just a good due to how the DAVE handles the files? I don't have any music files in both formats to directly compare but the Redbook files sound so good I'm not convinced I can tell any difference. I am not using with a Blu2. Would love to but too soon. Thanks.


----------



## paul2qute

Triode User said:


> I’m not sure I support your thoughts about JF and RW going in different directions at all. For sure they come at it from a different background but there must be a common purpose and overlap of purpose and direction because otherwise the sum of their parts would not add up to more than they are individually in the way that it does.
> 
> Oh, and class G is not digital.


They work great as a team,it's just the difference between amps that's all I'm saying


----------



## ray-dude

SCBob said:


> I am a recent DAVE owner and have a lot to learn about it. Is it worth buying hi res music files for DAVE or are Redbook CDs burned to the computer just a good due to how the DAVE handles the files? I don't have any music files in both formats to directly compare but the Redbook files sound so good I'm not convinced I can tell any difference. I am not using with a Blu2. Would love to but too soon. Thanks.



These  are actually very illuminating and educational experiences to do with your system.  Now  that  you have a DAVE, you will be able to MUCH more clearly hear differences  elsewhere in your chain  (from  speakers to headphones  to your recordings)

I  suggest going  to audiophile  labels  like 2L and  Blue Coast Records.  They both  offer some of their amazing  recordings  in a variety of formats  and  resolutions.  The  original recordings are world class, so you'll be  sure to hear  honest  differences from the  various file formats.

How  much a difference you hear  will very  much depend  on the rest of your chain, but I found in my  system  that DAVE  (and  later BluDAVE)  does a remarkable job minimizing the  gap between redbook recordings  and their high res  counterparts.

Enjoy your DAVE!


----------



## Triode User (Aug 10, 2018)

SCBob said:


> I am a recent DAVE owner and have a lot to learn about it. Is it worth buying hi res music files for DAVE or are Redbook CDs burned to the computer just a good due to how the DAVE handles the files? I don't have any music files in both formats to directly compare but the Redbook files sound so good I'm not convinced I can tell any difference. I am not using with a Blu2. Would love to but too soon. Thanks.



Perhaps the easiest way fir you to decide is to buy a few albums in both 44.1 and also higher res versions and compare.

For me, in my system I definitely think is worth getting the high res versions. Everything sounds better. The bass has more shape, and there is more detailing all the way through.

A classic example for me is the new Marcus Miller album Laid Black where I have compared the 44.1 and 48k versions. There is a slight but noticeable improvement to my ears with the 48k version. Only you can decide though so that is why I say you need to try.

Be sure though that you are buying true hi res versions and not just upsampled music.

Edit. I buy my hi res downloads from Qobuz.


----------



## Amberlamps

Hifi Boy said:


> I don't think I've ever seen anyone put in as much time to answer questions related to his products as Rob does.



Yeah, I agree 100%.

Rob gets a lot of schiit from others in a certain part of the forum, but yet, he keeps supplying facts and anecdotes regarding his work and passion/hobby.

When others would of bailed out years ago, Rob is still here and answering questions.  < he has balls of steel.

On his desk


----------



## doraymon

I've been looking around for a stereo power amp to couple with Dave to drive a pair of B&W CM9.
I am considering the new Ètude but can't find any review or impressions anywhere online.
Please let me know if you have any additional information other than the press releases aired in May.
Thanks


----------



## Mojo ideas

doraymon said:


> I've been looking around for a stereo power amp to couple with Dave to drive a pair of B&W CM9.
> I am considering the new Ètude but can't find any review or impressions anywhere online.
> Please let me know if you have any additional information other than the press releases aired in May.
> Thanks


The Etude Amplifier will be released for production in a few weeks we’ve a large number on order so they should be readily available for you to listen to one in one of our dealers shortly.


----------



## Triode User

Mojo ideas said:


> The Etude Amplifier will be released for production in a few weeks we’ve a large number on order so they should be readily available for you to listen to one in one of our dealers shortly.



I heard the Ètude linked to a Dave at the North West show a few weeks back and it sounded good. I would say it is well worth a listen.


----------



## Arcabonne

I'm doing the same research. At present I would be directed to the Pass Labs 30.8, 30 watts in class A.


----------



## Triode User

Arcabonne said:


> I'm doing the same research. At present I would be directed to the Pass Labs 30.8, 30 watts in class A.



And I cannot disagree as that is what I have.


----------



## dakabali

Triode User said:


> And I cannot disagree as that is what I have.


Tomorrow I'm going to audit a First Watt SIT-2 and an F7 with the BluDAVE. Any thoughts how they compare to the Pass Labs 30.8? I mean the SQ not the technical specifications that I am aware of. Thanks.


----------



## Triode User

dakabali said:


> Tomorrow I'm going to audit a First Watt SIT-2 and an F7 with the BluDAVE. Any thoughts how they compare to the Pass Labs 30.8? I mean the SQ not the technical specifications that I am aware of. Thanks.



No, sorry I have no experience of those. I compared the pass labs 30.5 and 30.8 before buying the 30.8.


----------



## dakabali (Aug 12, 2018)

dakabali said:


> It is definitely not a big-money competitor but I've got a Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ on which I spent big-money to improve. I bought the Mutec MC3+ reclockers, the Mytec balanced headphone extension cable etc. and I managed to bring the SQ close to DAVE's. Then Blu2 arrived and the gap became huge again. Since then the only devices besides the BluDAVE in my chain have been the Entreq boxes to ground the PS Audio P10, the Mutec REF10 to provide masterclock to the SOtM boxes plus a LAN switch and my LPSU I built based on some LT3045 Stammheim boards.
> All the USB reclockers, filters etc are in my 2nd system with the Brooklyn+ A fine tuned system comparable with DAVE imo. It has no chance agains the BluDAVE.


Yesterday I built a 1m AudioQuest Dragon HC between the P10 and the wall socket and two AudioQuest Dragon Sources between the P10 the Blu2 and the Dave (see above the parts of my 1st system chain). I certainly expected some improvement in the SQ for the money these cables cost but I was simply SHOCKED what I heared. If the SQ was 100% before then the improvement has been
+20-30% with the AQ HC cable. It's been like upgrading the loudspeakers. Wow - a huge!!! audible difference.
+5-10% with the AQ Source to the Blu2. Still a positive audible difference.
+2-3% with the AQ Source to the DAVE. Almost no improvement, if any maybe placibo effect

For everyone who has a regenerator in his/her system and is willing to spend a fortune on high quality source cables - definitely the way to go.


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## dakabali (Aug 12, 2018)

Triode User said:


> No, sorry I have no experience of those. I compared the pass labs 30.5 and 30.8 before buying the 30.8.


No worries, thanks anyway. I'read some reviews about F7 vs X25 where the X25 won by a hair (no surprise at all) so I expect the 30.8 to be superior. Without hearing them I tend towards the SIT-2 as a better choice with BluDAVE.


----------



## Triode User (Aug 12, 2018)

dakabali said:


> Yesterday I built a 1m AudioQuest Dragon HC between the P10 and the wall socket and two AudioQuest Dragon Sources between the P10 the Blu2 and the Dave (see above the parts of my 1st system chain). I certainly expected some improvement in the SQ for the money these cables cost but I was simply SHOCKED what I heared. If the SQ was 100% before then the improvement has been
> +20-30% with the AQ HC cable. It's been like upgrading the loudspeakers. Wow - a huge!!! audible difference.
> +5-10% with the AQ Source to the Blu2. Still a positive audible difference.
> +2-3% with the AQ Source to the DAVE. Almost no improvement, if any maybe placibo effect
> ...



Very interesting but of course the one thing about anything to do with mains is that a healthy YMMV is inserted and to be taken into account because of the large variation in mains quality around the world and also within individual countries.

I am lucky that there is only me and two other houses served by the high voltage step down transformer in our village. Perhaps that is why I found that a regenerator actually inserted more measured noise into the mains than was there without it. YMMV accepted of course in relation to that though.

By the way, I love your used of 'Shocked' in relation to mains cables. Maybe you shouldn’t have touched those bare wires!


----------



## doraymon

Triode User said:


> I heard the Ètude linked to a Dave at the North West show a few weeks back and it sounded good. I would say it is well worth a listen.


For £3,900 I would hope it's more than only good.
thanks for the first impression.


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## paul2qute (Aug 12, 2018)

doraymon said:


> I've been looking around for a stereo power amp to couple with Dave to drive a pair of B&W CM9.
> I am considering the new Ètude but can't find any review or impressions anywhere online.
> Please let me know if you have any additional information other than the press releases aired in May.
> Thanks


Can't find any myself, I could be wrong but reviewers don't seem to get their hands on any of the Chord kit until it's released.I love Bryston amps,if I won the lottery I would go with the massive mono blocks, I had the 7 sst mono blocks and they were superb


----------



## miketlse

doraymon said:


> For £3,900 I would hope it's more than only good.
> thanks for the first impression.


Perhaps pause and remember the british use of understatement when describing things.


----------



## Triode User

miketlse said:


> Perhaps pause and remember the british use of understatement when describing things.



Haha, yes, I wondered whether I should point that out. 

Quite good = amazing.


----------



## miketlse

Triode User said:


> Haha, yes, I wondered whether I should point that out.
> 
> Quite good = amazing.


Yes, that sort of thing.
I have many laughs over a morning coffee with my french colleagues, about how they need to learn that a brit can mean the opposite of what he literally says.
Not bad = very good


----------



## paul2qute

miketlse said:


> Perhaps pause and remember the british use of understatement when describing things.


We use to be reserved until Diana died now we all openly emotional drama queens


----------



## paul2qute

On a different note, adrenaline rush for me is listening to Dave and M scaler in a demo room....how mad is that fella taking that plane and doing loop the loops with it talk about having ball's,apparently he survived  the crash and now is flying for the Red arrows


----------



## doraymon

Triode User said:


> Haha, yes, I wondered whether I should point that out.
> 
> Quite good = amazing.


Thanks, I'm "quite" relieved...


----------



## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> We use to be reserved until Diana died now we all openly emotional drama queens


When you live overseas, you learn to discuss the many similarities and absurdities of language, with your friends and colleagues.
It makes me aware, that what I thought I communicated, was not the message that was received.
Yes the brits are less reserved, but much of 'learning english as a foreign language' is still based on 'queens english' which is perhaps not so appropriate nowadays.
Language everywhere evolves, and so should all of us who try and communicate on a global platform like head-fi.
Yes it is frustrating to read posters describing the mundane as 'amazing', but us brits can at least try and fight a losing rearguard action.


----------



## paul2qute (Aug 12, 2018)

miketlse said:


> When you live overseas, you learn to discuss the many similarities and absurdities of language, with your friends and colleagues.
> It makes me aware, that what I thought I communicated, was not the message that was received.
> Yes the brits are less reserved, but much of 'learning english as a foreign language' is still based on 'queens english' which is perhaps not so appropriate nowadays.
> Language everywhere evolves, and so should all of us who try and communicate on a global platform like head-fi.
> Yes it is frustrating to read posters describing the mundane as 'amazing', but us brits can at least try and fight a losing rearguard action.


Can you speak French?I've got French running through my veins, Bordeaux, 4 bottles,need to change my profile name to Focal,4 bottles of Bordeaux and even the Focal Utopia headphones  sounds pretty good


----------



## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> Can you speak French?I've got French running through my veins, Bordeaux, 4 bottles,need to change my profile name to Focal,4 bottles of Bordeaux and even the Focal Utopia headphones  sounds pretty good


I find the speaking french in real time the hardest part.
I can listen to colleagues speaking french, and get the gist of what they are saying.
I get asked to translate papers from french to english for engineering conferences, with the help of google translate, I can instinctively tell which sections are wrong, and need me to reword.
The last challenge remains speaking french in real time.
As ever, recognising what one is weakest at, is the first step to trying to improve.


----------



## paul2qute (Aug 12, 2018)

miketlse said:


> I find the speaking french in real time the hardest part.
> I can listen to colleagues speaking french, and get the gist of what they are saying.
> I get asked to translate papers from french to english for engineering conferences, with the help of google translate, I can instinctively tell which sections are wrong, and need me to reword.
> The last challenge remains speaking french in real time.
> As ever, recognising what one is weakest at, is the first step to trying to improve.


So that's a no then.Not only are we reserved but ignorant too..expect everyone to speak English.I use to go on holiday to France with my mum and dad in the caravan, dad one night practiced for hours what to say next day in real time to a woman, it was fluent what he said I swear, well she went off on one like dad was fluent it was comical, all he said was oui oui, came back and I asked him how it went, he said I haven't got a clue.But that's the difference between my dad and me, I won't go to France because I can't speak the language but my dad didn't have a care in the world he would let nothing stop him


----------



## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> So that's a no then.Not only are we reserved but ignorant too..expect everyone to speak English.I use to go on holiday to France with my mum and dad in the caravan, dad one night practiced for hours what to say next day in real time to a woman, it was fluent what he said I swear, well she went off on one like dad was fluent it was comical, all he said was oui oui, came back and I asked him how it went, he said I haven't got a clue


Remember that only a few hundred years ago, after the Norman conquest, 90% of the legal and upper class language in England was French.
The lower classes spoke anglo saxon (mainly german and danish).
Many of the English words, have their roots in French words.
Understanding that, is the first step to understanding our common heritage, when discussing language with european colleagues.


----------



## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> So that's a no then.Not only are we reserved but ignorant too..expect everyone to speak English.I use to go on holiday to France with my mum and dad in the caravan, dad one night practiced for hours what to say next day in real time to a woman, it was fluent what he said I swear, well she went off on one like dad was fluent it was comical, all he said was oui oui, came back and I asked him how it went, he said I haven't got a clue.But that's the difference between my dad and me, I won't go to France because I can't speak the language but my dad didn't have a care in the world he would let nothing stop him


Once we accept that we (france and england) have more that binds us, than separates us, we have a good start point.


----------



## paul2qute

paul2qute said:


> So that's a no then.Not only are we reserved but ignorant too..expect everyone to speak English.I use to go on holiday to France with my mum and dad in the caravan, dad one night practiced for hours what to say next day in real time to a woman, it was fluent what he said I swear, well she went off on one like dad was fluent it was comical, all he said was oui oui, came back and I asked him how it went, he said I haven't got a clue





miketlse said:


> Once we accept that we (france and england) have more that binds us, than separates us, we have a good start point.


Just googled it mate 1099 so more than a few hundred years ago but interesting stuff, I lived in Singapore for 2 and a half years and they all speak English as the common language, they have different dialects so they speak English to communicate, that's was in 1981,really interesting stuff


----------



## musickid

For the material scientists i have two solid granite slabs which i bought from argos cheaply and they fit the dimensions of the mscaler/hugo2 which i have ordered. Is granite a good base for hifi delicates as i know alot of the specialist companies sell them at extortionist prices. The slabs seem cool to the touch and this is my only reservation any help please? mk


----------



## paul2qute

musickid said:


> For the material scientists i have two solid granite slabs which i bought from argos cheaply and they fit the dimensions of the mscaler/hugo2 which i have ordered. Is granite a good base for hifi delicates as i know alot of the specialist companies sell them at extortionist prices. The slabs seem cool to the touch and this is my only reservation any help please? mk


Don't listen to me mate I know nothing but audiophile hi-fi rack is the best I've heard to date,Rob watts has designed his creations to be pretty much immune to outside interference so I would of thought as long as its level I wouldn't worry, but if you look at the chord racks they tilt the chord forward


----------



## musickid

cheers paul


----------



## paul2qute

musickid said:


> cheers paul


All I would say is don't stack them on top of each other, can't understand why chord show pics of them stacked, put them on different shelves


----------



## musickid

I think the stacked h2/scaler pic was taken whilst flying high.


----------



## paul2qute

musickid said:


> I think the stacked h2/scaler pic was taken whilst flying high.


No I mean the hugo TT 2 stacked with the m scaler and Toby amp looks awful


----------



## musickid

Can anyone recommend a sub 100 pound mains strip to use with the mscaler? many thanks


----------



## musickid (Aug 13, 2018)

wrong post.


----------



## tunes

paul2qute said:


> Mike the speakers I've got are monitor audio apex 40 speakers, they 500 quid each and my Rel sub is nearly 2 grand, not state of the art but get a lovely sound from them


What phase do most people listen with.  Positive or negative and crossfeed on or off??


----------



## simorag

tunes said:


> What phase do most people listen with.  Positive or negative and crossfeed on or off??



Positive phase, with crossfeed set to 1 (except for binaural recordings) here.


----------



## OK-Guy

musickid said:


> Can anyone recommend a sub 100 pound mains strip to use with the mscaler? many thanks



I use these: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tacima-6-W...2&sr=8-2&keywords=tacima+mains+extension+lead


----------



## Hifi Boy (Aug 13, 2018)

paul2qute said:


> No I mean the hugo TT 2 stacked with the m scaler and Toby amp looks awful


 Sorry, I just had to be that guy who posts that image here. 







We can close the thread how.


----------



## tunes

Rob Watts said:


> People often make the comment that a black background is due to lower noise floor and actually that's not the case. Dave has -128 dB DR; but if this was say 20 dB worse, then listening on loudspeakers, nobody would in practice hear the difference.
> 
> The improvement in depth one hears with Dave is entirely down to how accurate small signals amplitudes are preserved; and Dave, with its -350 dB digital domain performance, plus the immense care I go to ensure that small signals are accurately reproduced has unique abilities in this area.
> 
> ...


I feed the DAVE with FLAC files on a Questyle DAP using its optical output. How do I know if the data stream is bit perfect??


----------



## Arcabonne

dakabali said:


> No worries, thanks anyway. I'read some reviews about F7 vs X25 where the X25 won by a hair (no surprise at all) so I expect the 30.8 to be superior. Without hearing them I tend towards the SIT-2 as a better choice with BluDAVE.



Actually it seems to me that the test on 6 Moons does not say that the X25 is sonically inferior to 30.8. Unfortunately, it has only one input.


----------



## dakabali

Arcabonne said:


> Actually it seems to me that the test on 6 Moons does not say that the X25 is sonically inferior to 30.8. Unfortunately, it has only one input.


Yes you are right. This is why I wrote that I "expect" that. I managed to organize a meeting by the local Pass Labs dealer and tomorrow I'm gonna audit my BluDAVE with the FW F7, SIT-2, XA25 and maybe even the 30.8. I'm excited


----------



## Paul Bjernklo (Aug 13, 2018)

musickid said:


> Can anyone recommend a sub 100 pound mains strip to use with the mscaler? many thanks



£150 (I think) mains block (if you mean that by mains strip) that is highly regarded by Hi-fi world and Hi-fi Choice magazines is https://titanaudio.co.uk/pages/titan-audio-styx-mains-block . Otherwise the Tacima cs947 for £40 or less. I have the Tacima for my TV which strangely improved my hi-fi sound (quite big improvement) even since that is connected to an Isotek EVO3 Sirius block... The Tacima must be blocking some crap noise from my telly. Those 2 previous ones are the ones I have seen recommended around that price point.


----------



## musickid (Aug 13, 2018)

Thanks Paul,

Can RF filtering on these mains strips (and custom mains cables which may or may not conform to BS) actually do more harm than good in the same way that some usb tweaks actually add RF noise to the chain. Would i be better off just buying a high quality generic mains strip for use here in the UK. I will be using H2/Mscaler and computer/router all pugged into one strip. Thanks mk. The titan does not seem to offer surge protection?? I am open minded and not passing any judgment one way or the other.


----------



## Paul Bjernklo

musickid said:


> Thanks Paul,
> 
> Can RF filtering on these mains strips (and custom mains cables which may or may not conform to BS) actually do more harm than good in the same way that some usb tweaks actually add RF noise to the chain. Would i be better off just buying a high quality generic mains strip for use here in the UK. I will be using H2/Mscaler and computer/router all pugged into one strip. Thanks mk. The titan does not seem to offer surge protection?? I am open minded and not passing any judgment one way or the other.



Don’t know. MRCU sell proper stuff so there are some more alternatives here : https://mcru.co.uk/product-category...ention-products/?orderby=price&v=79cba1185463


----------



## OK-Guy

Paul Bjernklo said:


> Otherwise the Tacima cs947 for £40 or less. I have the Tacima for my TV which strangely improved my hi-fi sound (quite big improvement) even since that is connected to an Isotek EVO3 Sirius block... The Tacima must be blocking some crap noise from my telly. Those 2 previous ones are the ones I have seen recommended around that price point.



strangely I heard improvements didn't want to say anything in case people shouted 'he's struck oil... snake-oil!'


----------



## GryphonGuy

tunes said:


> What phase do most people listen with.  Positive or negative and crossfeed on or off??



Phase stays positive. The difference between negative and positive doesn't seem to matter to my ears however when one speaker is mis-wired then that phase plays with my brain in a bad way.

When listening to headphones thru DAVE I usually have crossfeed set to 3. This is not as sonically pure as no crossfeed (0) but the depth perception and soundstage positioning is more satisfying to me so I guess musicality is better with crossfeed on but the sonics are cleaner and purer with it off.

When listening to speakers, the crossfeed is always off. If I accidentally leave it on by pulling out the headphone cable without first setting it back to zero, it doesn't take long before I am cursing Chord's error plugging in the headphone to turn the crossfeed off and pulling the headphones out to listen to the speakers without crossfeed engaged. It would be a really nice gesture from Chord to have this FIXED as they have already admitted to it being an oops.

Regards
GG


----------



## seaice (Aug 13, 2018)

GryphonGuy said:


> … When listening to speakers, the crossfeed is always off. If I accidentally leave it on by pulling out the headphone cable without first setting it back to zero, it doesn't take long before I am cursing Chord's error plugging in the headphone to turn the crossfeed off and pulling the headphones out to listen to the speakers without crossfeed engaged. It would be a really nice gesture from Chord to have this FIXED as they have already admitted to it being an oops.



I actually like it because I can connect external headphone amplifiers (eg. for my Staxes) with the DAVE crossfeed ON.


----------



## rgs9200m

Positive phase / crossfeed off/ High Filter off. Just my tastes after A/B testing all of these.


----------



## paul2qute

I know it's not until October until the Chord Hugo TT 2 is released but what window driver is best from a Microsoft laptop for the most stable and best sound?


----------



## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> I know it's not until October until the Chord Hugo TT 2 is released but what window driver is best from a Microsoft laptop for the most stable and best sound?


I think the Win 10 driver, because it is backwards compatible.


----------



## paul2qute

miketlse said:


> I think the Win 10 driver, because it is backwards compatible.


Is that WASAPI or ASIO ?


----------



## miketlse (Sep 20, 2020)

deleted


----------



## Triode User

miketlse said:


> Paul, you are asking me technical questions, late at night, when tomorrow is a public holiday.
> Remind me tomorrow LOL.



He also seems to think October is ‘autumn’. Poor deluded boy. (I may have to search for an edible hat but I won’t start looking just yet).


----------



## paul2qute

miketlse said:


> Paul, you are asking me technical questions, late at night, when tomorrow is a public holiday.
> Remind me tomorrow LOL.


Shall I say it in French? Oui ether avri la WASAPI oun Asio ?


----------



## paul2qute (Aug 14, 2018)

Triode User said:


> He also seems to think October is ‘autumn’. Poor deluded boy. (I may have to search for an edible hat but I won’t start looking just yet).


Sunday the 23 of September but told it's not released until October so who's deluded?Anything else you wanna add?


----------



## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> Shall I say it in French? Oui ether avri la WASAPI oun Asio ?


You can say it in multiple languages, but I have sat outside during the dusk watching the bats, drinking several Glenfiddich on the rocks.


----------



## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> Sunday the 23 of September but told it's not released until October so who's deluded?


I have seen other references to October, so I am treating that as the baseline.


----------



## maxh22

paul2qute said:


> Is that WASAPI or ASIO ?



ASIO driver, it's probably the same one as Hugo 2.


----------



## paul2qute

maxh22 said:


> ASIO driver, it's probably the same one as Hugo 2.


When I spoke to Rob watts ASIO was perfect for mojo but can be unstable with Hugo 2 so Rob said if that's the case use WASAPI


----------



## maxh22

paul2qute said:


> When I spoke to Rob watts ASIO was perfect for mojo but can be unstable with Hugo 2 so Rob said if that's the case use WASAPI



I guess you'll have to see for yourself when you get the TT 2, never had a problem using either driver IME.


----------



## paul2qute

maxh22 said:


> I guess you'll have to see for yourself when you get the TT 2, never had a problem using either driver IME.


Thanks for the reply


----------



## paul2qute

Not one person has said to me on this Dave thread to go to the Hugo TT 2 site because I ain't talking about Dave, I came here because I've got more information about ppl going to the show and listening to Hugo TT 2 and m scaler than any other thread,so thank you I really appreciate it


----------



## paul2qute

Triode User said:


> He also seems to think October is ‘autumn’. Poor deluded boy. (I may have to search for an edible hat but I won’t start looking just yet).


Triode I was asking a genuine question yet you text me like I'm some idiot Mike didn't have a clue what I was on about ,did you? Wasn't even texting your way but you had to text to make ya self look something your not.If you got a issue with me then text me privately and I'm sure we can sort it out


----------



## Triode User

paul2qute said:


> Triode I was asking a genuine question yet you text me like I'm some idiot Mike didn't have a clue what I was on about ,did you? Wasn't even texting your way but you had to text to make ya self look something your not.If you got a issue with me then text me privately and I'm sure we can sort it out



I am sorry you have taken objection to what I thought was a bit of harmless fun being poked at Chords predicted shipping dates which are notorious for being shall we say on the optimistic side of life. Please accept my sincere apologies. I have no issues with you which need sorting out and it was only meant as friendly banter. That is the trouble with forums where if you were stood next to me you would see the big friendly smile as I said it to you as a fellow Chord enthusiast. 

Friends?


----------



## paul2qute

Triode User said:


> I am sorry you have taken objection to what I thought was a bit of harmless fun being poked at Chords predicted shipping dates which are notorious for being shall we say on the optimistic side of life. Please accept my sincere apologies. I have no issues with you which need sorting out and it was only meant as friendly banter. That is the trouble with forums where if you were stood next to me you would see the big friendly smile as I said it to you as a fellow Chord enthusiast.
> 
> Friends?





Triode User said:


> I am sorry you have taken objection to what I thought was a bit of harmless fun being poked at Chords predicted shipping dates which are notorious for being shall we say on the optimistic side of life. Please accept my sincere apologies. I have no issues with you which need sorting out and it was only meant as friendly banter. That is the trouble with forums where if you were stood next to me you would see the big friendly smile as I said it to you as a fellow Chord enthusiast.
> 
> Friends?


Felt it was more poked at me than chord but I'll accept your apology


----------



## Triode User

paul2qute said:


> Felt it was more poked at me than chord but I'll accept your apology



You will just have to accept my word on that. It will however be interesting to see when autumn turns out to be this year.


----------



## maxh22

Emojis exist on this forum for a reason guys, it’s very easy to misinterpret things but more times then not they help to better convey your actual message.


----------



## paul2qute

paul2qute said:


> Felt it was more poked at me than chord but I'll accept your apology





Triode User said:


> You will just have to accept my word on that. It will however be interesting to see when autumn turns out to be this year.


It's the same date every year I couldn't 


Triode User said:


> You will just have to accept my word on that. It will however be interesting to see when autumn turns out to be this year.


I'm not bothered when the Hugo TT 2 comes out I've paid  for it, it's not an issue for me, I couldn't care less


----------



## miketlse

paul2qute said:


> Triode I was asking a genuine question yet you text me like I'm some idiot Mike didn't have a clue what I was on about ,did you? Wasn't even texting your way but you had to text to make ya self look something your not.If you got a issue with me then text me privately and I'm sure we can sort it out


Sorry if I confused anyone last night.
I was well chilled, drinking Glenfiddich, so it was not the optimum time for my brain to engage in detailed understanding of driver issues.


----------



## Jiffi32

Triode User said:


> It will however be interesting to see when autumn turns out to be this year.



They said Autumn, they didn't say in what year


----------



## Triode User

Jiffi32 said:


> They said Autumn, they didn't say in what year



Yeah, I paid my deposit before I twigged that! Mind you, based on my experience with Blu Mk2, there is something to be said for having lots of little bursts of excitement when you think it might be going to be delivered and then you get to have the same burst of excitement again 3 weeks later and then again 3 weeks after that etc etc.


----------



## Arcabonne

dakabali said:


> Yes you are right. This is why I wrote that I "expect" that. I managed to organize a meeting by the local Pass Labs dealer and tomorrow I'm gonna audit my BluDAVE with the FW F7, SIT-2, XA25 and maybe even the 30.8. I'm excited



Thank you if you share your impressions.


----------



## dakabali

Arcabonne said:


> Thank you if you share your impressions.


Yesterday I visited the local Passlab/FW dealer (who happens to be the local Chord dealer, too) and managed to listen to some 95 dB speakers with  FW F7, SIT-2, PL XA25 and with BluDave direct. In our 4 hours session BluDave direct delivered the most detailed presentation and separation of the soundstage. However, even that we could drive the Dave loud enough with these speakers  (around -10 / -5 dB setting on the Dave) the general presentation missed the fulness and airiness we experienced with the external amps. Dave produced a loud, detailed but "thin" sound which missed the background of the power (amp) even when playing in a near-field setup. 

I would say that among the above low power amps the XA25 seems to be the one which can be used in the most situation. Playing any kind of music it was a top performer with the most power among the three amps.  Listening to Bill Evans' My Man's Gone Now (Sunday At The Village Vanguard) the XA25 provided the most beautiful and widest soundstage I have ever heared. What really surprised me that the XA25 gave the most SET like colorful sound. Something I expected from the SIT-2 based on the reviews I had taken a look into. 

The SIT-2 sounded very natural after the "tubed" sound we experienced with the XA25. The soundstage was a bit narrower and the separation felt behind the XA25. Then we put on a CD with  Sonny Rollins' Where Are You (The Bridge) and... OMG.... the natural flavour of the SIT-2 that I found a bit purist and low key after the XA25, gave me the most live-experience of a recorded musical performance ever! Enjoying with closed eyes and with the XA25 I had the feeling I was listening to vinyl and not CD on a very very nice tube amped hifi system. Or like Mr. Rollins and his band would perfom in one of the best clubs live. With the SIT-2.... Sonny himself came into my room just for a visit. Fully live, uncomplicated, personal, direct connection between the artist and the listener through the most natural representation of music.

Last the FW F7. Honestly a very nice amp but the XA25 "stole the show". The F7 is much closer to the XA25 than to the SIT-2 and sounds like a first incarnation or pilot of the XA25. Everything is there, SET like sound, soundstage, etc. but this everything is simply MUCH better with the XA25.

So SIT-2 or XA25? Easy answer: both  XA25 for most cases especially for big bands, wide stages. SIT-2 for solo performances or choir music. If I had to choose I would take take the XA25 as it is the better and more powerful amp. However, when the SIT-2  shines... then it produces something such beautiful and unique that I don't want to forget and give up on this something. An amp which delivers the best of both world could be the ultimative solution for me personally. Maybe the SIT-3?

I've just ordered a custom Omega Super Alnico 6 XRS (intend to use with BluDave direct) and a First WATT SIT-3. As soon as they arrive I re-audit the SIT-2, SIT-3 and the XA25 with these speakers and will sadly have to make a decision


----------



## Triode User

dakabali said:


> Yesterday I visited the local Passlab/FW dealer (who happens to be the local Chord dealer, too) and managed to listen to some 95 dB speakers with  FW F7, SIT-2, PL XA25 and with BluDave direct. In our 4 hours session BluDave direct delivered the most detailed presentation and separation of the soundstage. However, even that we could drive the Dave loud enough with these speakers  (around -10 / -5 dB setting on the Dave) the general presentation missed the fulness and airiness we experienced with the external amps. Dave produced a loud, detailed but "thin" sound which missed the background of the power (amp) even when playing in a near-field setup.
> 
> I would say that among the above low power amps the XA25 seems to be the one which can be used in the most situation. Playing any kind of music it was a top performer with the most power among the three amps.  Listening to Bill Evans' My Man's Gone Now (Sunday At The Village Vanguard) the XA25 provided the most beautiful and widest soundstage I have ever heared. What really surprised me that the XA25 gave the most SET like colorful sound. Something I expected from the SIT-2 based on the reviews I had taken a look into.
> 
> ...



What a fun and lovely day you have had. I was going to say that you can pop round to my house and listen to the XA30.8 but then I see that you are slightly too far, ahem. Thanks for the report. You have fun times ahead.


----------



## dakabali

Triode User said:


> What a fun and lovely day you have had. I was going to say that you can pop round to my house and listen to the XA30.8 but then I see that you are slightly too far, ahem. Thanks for the report. You have fun times ahead.


Thanks for the invitation anyway never say never  Did you have a chance to compare your XA30.8 to the XA25 or any of the First Watt amps?


----------



## ray-dude

dakabali said:


> Yesterday I visited the local Passlab/FW dealer (who happens to be the local Chord dealer, too) and managed to listen to some 95 dB speakers with  FW F7, SIT-2, PL XA25 and with BluDave direct. In our 4 hours session BluDave direct delivered the most detailed presentation and separation of the soundstage. However, even that we could drive the Dave loud enough with these speakers  (around -10 / -5 dB setting on the Dave) the general presentation missed the fulness and airiness we experienced with the external amps. Dave produced a loud, detailed but "thin" sound which missed the background of the power (amp) even when playing in a near-field setup.
> 
> I would say that among the above low power amps the XA25 seems to be the one which can be used in the most situation. Playing any kind of music it was a top performer with the most power among the three amps.  Listening to Bill Evans' My Man's Gone Now (Sunday At The Village Vanguard) the XA25 provided the most beautiful and widest soundstage I have ever heared. What really surprised me that the XA25 gave the most SET like colorful sound. Something I expected from the SIT-2 based on the reviews I had taken a look into.
> 
> ...



Great write up @dakabali thank you!

FedEx delivered my First Watt F2J today...I can't wait to compare BluDAVE direct vs FW F1J vs FW F2J into my Omega Super Alnico Monitors and Voxativ  9.87's.  As I mentioned previously, the FW F1J's made the Omega SAMs a completely different speaker (almost full range), even with the usual hit to transparency vs BluDAVE direct.


----------



## Triode User

dakabali said:


> Thanks for the invitation anyway never say never  Did you have a chance to compare your XA30.8 to the XA25 or any of the First Watt amps?



The invitation is open, we are middle of UK and in prime Stilton Cheese and Melton Pork Pie area!

The XA25 had not been launched when I got the XA30.8 and I never had the chance to try any of the First Watt amps. I just fell in love with the XA30.8 sound as soon as I heard it.


----------



## miketlse

Jiffi32 said:


> They said Autumn, they didn't say in what year





Triode User said:


> The invitation is open, we are middle of UK and in prime Stilton Cheese and Melton Pork Pie area!
> 
> The XA25 had not been launched when I got the XA30.8 and I never had the chance to try any of the First Watt amps. I just fell in love with the XA30.8 sound as soon as I heard it.


It is the pork pies that are more interesting. French pork pies leave something to be desired.


----------



## dakabali

ray-dude said:


> Great write up @dakabali thank you!
> 
> FedEx delivered my First Watt F2J today...I can't wait to compare BluDAVE direct vs FW F1J vs FW F2J into my Omega Super Alnico Monitors and Voxativ  9.87's.  As I mentioned previously, the FW F1J's made the Omega SAMs a completely different speaker (almost full range), even with the usual hit to transparency vs BluDAVE direct.


Thanks Ray. It's a pitty my dealer hasn't got an F1(J) or F2(J) I wish you could also audit one of the SIT series along the Fs.


----------



## ray-dude

dakabali said:


> Thanks Ray. It's a pitty my dealer hasn't got an F1(J) or F2(J) I wish you could also audit one of the SIT series along the Fs.



After you get tired of pork pies, keep heading west and we can enjoy some fish tacos and margaritas while putting things through their paces!


----------



## dakabali

ray-dude said:


> After you get tired of pork pies, keep heading west and we can enjoy some fish tacos and margaritas while putting things through their paces!


Haha  Be prepared for a best seller cookbook "Traveling around the HiFi world or how to hear the taste" by a Central European audiophile.


----------



## Triode User

dakabali said:


> Haha  Be prepared for a best seller cookbook "Traveling around the HiFi world or how to hear the taste" by a Central European audiophile.



It’s not a silly idea. I have met some really nice people who have come to listen to my system after getting in touch on Head-Fi.


----------



## miketlse

Triode User said:


> It’s not a silly idea. I have met some really nice people who have come to listen to my system after getting in touch on Head-Fi.


Not such a silly idea.  Many of us enthusiasts, can identify with other enthusiasts on Head-Fi, but the next  step is to say hello, and propose a communal listening session. That session enables experiences/ideas to move forward.


----------



## Arcabonne

dakabali said:


> Yesterday I visited the local Passlab/FW dealer (who happens to be the local Chord dealer, too) and managed to listen to some 95 dB speakers with FW F7, SIT-2, PL XA25 and with BluDave direct.



Thank you very much for your comments. Very appreciate.


----------



## paul2qute (Aug 17, 2018)

miketlse said:


> It is the pork pies that are more interesting. French pork pies leave something to be desired.


The French love their food, so passionate like Focal with their or there speakers, it's a shame they lost the plot with the headphones, love the technology but please put that technology into a sound we can all love,why can't focal do bass? Is it a French thing?Keep the crossover simple, no bi wire or bi amp but things change.Company put loads of there or their profit back into improving there or their products but these are business men not the ppl that started the business with all that passion, now you have to be savvy as well as passionate but something has been lost


----------



## jarnopp

paul2qute said:


> The French love their food, so passionate like Focal with their or there speakers, it's a shame they lost the plot with the headphones, love the technology but please put that technology into a sound we can all love,why can't focal do bass? Is it a French thing?Keep the crossover simple, no bi wire or bi amp but things change.Company put loads of there or their profit back into improving there or their products but these are business men not the ppl that started the business with all that passion, now you have to be savvy as well as passionate but something has been lost



I am really liking the Focal Elex and can’t wait to hear it from a TT2 and then with added mScaler. Which ‘phones are you missing bass from?


----------



## paul2qute (Aug 18, 2018)

jarnopp said:


> I am really liking the Focal Elex and can’t wait to hear it from a TT2 and then with added mScaler. Which ‘phones are you missing bass from?


Every Focal headphone that I've owned, the Focal professional,Focal Utopia, Focal Clear, bore me senseless, how a company can make headphones that sound nothing like their speaker range is beyond me and have the audacity to call one of them Utopia is laughable.
The argument... should headphones sound like speakers?absolutely but they never do,originally headphones domestically were designed to listen to music so as not to upset anyone else in the household, doesn't matter how much money they throw at the design and how much they rip the consumer off with ridiculous prices, they have never been able to achieve headphones sounding like top of the range speakers.You could say it's physically or scientifically impossible by design but how many ppl would of said that about the Chord hugo twenty years ago


----------



## GryphonGuy

paul2qute said:


> The French love their food, so passionate like Focal with their or there speakers, it's a shame they lost the plot with the headphones, love the technology but please put that technology into a sound we can all love,why can't focal do bass? Is it a French thing?Keep the crossover simple, no bi wire or bi amp but things change.Company put loads of there or their profit back into improving there or their products but these are business men not the ppl that started the business with all that passion, now you have to be savvy as well as passionate but something has been lost



My experience is that Focal Utopia headphones are not lacking in bass via DAVE at least. My system has does bass quite well (IMHO) and the Utopias reflect that by making the bass impactful when the musicians play that way. Double bass string plucks from jazz musicians sound like you are at the front table in an intimate jazz hall. Utopias are THE most transparent headphones I have tried over many years. Although I must admit that I haven't tried electrostatic headphones like stax. ANY change in my system, including power cable changes, can be heard through the Utopias. So I have never understood the complaints about lack of bass through Focal Utopia headphones.

Regards
GG


----------



## nogi replicant

Each to their own. I prefer my Utopia’s over all other cans I have heard. (haven’t heard abyss phi), but have heard most others. The susvara when driven well can be as satisfying but in a very different way. I tried the Abyss Diana last week and felt the utopia was far better imo. I use a Hugo 2 for the Utopia. I have an m scaler on order and hope to throw a Dave or TT2 in the chain in the near future.


----------



## doraymon

Mojo ideas said:


> The Etude Amplifier will be released for production in a few weeks we’ve a large number on order so they should be readily available for you to listen to one in one of our dealers shortly.


Thanks for the clarification.
I also tried to understand how much power this will put into 8 Ohm Nominal impedance speakers (either B&W CM9 or 705 S2) but could find only the information for 4 Ohm speakers (150W).
The purpose is to understand if the Etude can drive these speakers easily or I should be looking at something more powerful.

Sorry for the OT but there is no dedicated thread for this amp...


----------



## Mojo ideas

doraymon said:


> Thanks for the clarification.
> I also tried to understand how much power this will put into 8 Ohm Nominal impedance speakers (either B&W CM9 or 705 S2) but could find only the information for 4 Ohm speakers (150W).
> The purpose is to understand if the Etude can drive these speakers easily or I should be looking at something more powerful.
> 
> Sorry for the OT but there is no dedicated thread for this amp...


Most loudspeaker do not have anything like a flat response this mean that at different audio frequencies they will have a different impeadance the nominal swing voltage will give you 75watts at a nominal 8Ohms many speaker dip to around two Ohms  so if an amplifier does not have to drive much lower impeadaces to ever increasing power levels it will be found wanting, the Etude is an outstanding amplifier capable of driving 4Ohms continuously. It has been specifically designed to take advantage of the superb qualities of the our Dave Dac   
Etude will drive right down to a single Ohm  for long period burst music tones so please make sure you audition one as soon as they become available around September.


----------



## miketlse

doraymon said:


> Thanks for the clarification.
> I also tried to understand how much power this will put into 8 Ohm Nominal impedance speakers (either B&W CM9 or 705 S2) but could find only the information for 4 Ohm speakers (150W).
> The purpose is to understand if the Etude can drive these speakers easily or I should be looking at something more powerful.
> 
> Sorry for the OT but there is no dedicated thread for this amp...



I wouldn't expect the Etude thread to appear, until much closer to the start of shipping.
@OK-Guy will be able to add it to his list of topics to highlight to Matt, when he returns from hols.


----------



## doraymon

Mojo ideas said:


> Most loudspeaker do not have anything like a flat response this mean that at different audio frequencies


Yes indeed, I don’t have the impedance/freq graph for the speakers, they declare nominal impedance as above and minimum impedance 30 Ohm for the CM9 and 37 Ohm for the 705.



Mojo ideas said:


> Etude will drive right down to a single Ohm for long period burst music tones so please make sure you audition one as soon as they become available around September.


I will audition it for sure as soon as it’s available but to make it a significant test I should bring it home and hook it up to my DAC (Dave) and loudspeakers (CM9). I have yet to find a single dealer willing to loan me such an expensive piece of gear so I don’t see this happening.

I was looking for clues based on the amp’s and speaker’s specs to determine if it would work before buying.


----------



## simorag

For those using the DAVE with an headphone amp or integrated amp: do you prefer the DAVE in digital preamp mode or DAC mode, and why?


----------



## Triode User

simorag said:


> For those using the DAVE with an headphone amp or integrated amp: do you prefer the DAVE in digital preamp mode or DAC mode, and why?



The only difference is that one (DAC mode) is a fixed output (-3dB) and the other is variable. The signal and sound quality is the same apart from the output voltage. If -3dB suits your amp for volume and it doesn't clip into your amp then use that otherwise try the variable output volume and select the output that suits your amp.

Out of interest, you could try setting your amplifier to maximum volume and using the Dave as the volume control. I never found that better with tube amps but I do find it better with solid state amps because it effectively takes their analogue volume control out of the circuit and uses Dave's much better digital volume control instead.


----------



## jacc

Triode User said:


> The only difference is that one (DAC mode) is a fixed output (-3dB) and the other is variable. The signal and sound quality is the same apart from the output voltage. If -3dB suits your amp for volume and it doesn't clip into your amp then use that otherwise try the variable output volume and select the output that suits your amp.
> 
> Out of interest, you could try setting your amplifier to maximum volume and using the Dave as the volume control. I never found that better with tube amps but I do find it better with solid state amps because it effectively takes their analogue volume control out of the circuit and uses Dave's much better digital volume control instead.



I don't really understand why but my DAVE sounds the best at DAC mode (ie. balance out at 6V). Sounds smoother and a tag warmer compared with lower output level as a standalone preamp.


----------



## Crgreen

paul2qute said:


> I couldn't mate,my Rel sub is connected to the stereo  outputs of the left and right speakers for purist sound,with that neutronc socket lol can't spell it.Mate it doesn't have balanced connections on the Arcam





jacc said:


> I don't really understand why but my DAVE sounds the best at DAC mode (ie. balance out at 6V). Sounds smoother and a tag warmer compared with lower output level as a standalone preamp.



And if you increase the volume in preamp mode to -3db, the same as fixed output, they should sound the same. It was the same with the Hugo: there was a particular volume setting that sounded best into my preamp, a magic spot as it were. I don’t think it has anything to do with preamp vs fixed output, just the volume settings.


----------



## simorag

Triode User said:


> The only difference is that one (DAC mode) is a fixed output (-3dB) and the other is variable. The signal and sound quality is the same apart from the output voltage. If -3dB suits your amp for volume and it doesn't clip into your amp then use that otherwise try the variable output volume and select the output that suits your amp.





jacc said:


> I don't really understand why but my DAVE sounds the best at DAC mode (ie. balance out at 6V). Sounds smoother and a tag warmer compared with lower output level as a standalone preamp.





Crgreen said:


> And if you increase the volume in preamp mode to -3db, the same as fixed output, they should sound the same. It was the same with the Hugo: there was a particular volume setting that sounded best into my preamp, a magic spot as it were. I don’t think it has anything to do with preamp vs fixed output, just the volume settings.



I made some A/B tests over the last couple of days, by setting DAVE at -3dB, then levelling my amp volume so that there is a match between the Digital Pre and DAC mode, and I feel like @jacc writes above. A slightly warmer / fuller sound with DAC mode, with no obvious loss of transparency to my ears.




Triode User said:


> Out of interest, you could try setting your amplifier to maximum volume and using the Dave as the volume control. I never found that better with tube amps but I do find it better with solid state amps because it effectively takes their analogue volume control out of the circuit and uses Dave's much better digital volume control instead.



Nice hint, I will try this as well, thanks!​


----------



## Crgreen

simorag said:


> I made some A/B tests over the last couple of days, by setting DAVE at -3dB, then levelling my amp volume so that there is a match between the Digital Pre and DAC mode, and I feel like @jacc writes above. A slightly warmer / fuller sound with DAC mode, with no obvious loss of transparency to my ears.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice hint, I will try this as well, thanks!​



There might well be a difference, as I said. The volume settings will be different in digital preamp and DAC mode, and you adjust your preamp volume to accommodate the difference. The point I was making is that if your digital preamp and DAC volume settings are the same (-3db) you should get the same result. What you’ve discovered is that a particular volume setting with the Dave best suits your preamp, which by the sound of it is -3db. I’m not sure it says anything about the Dave as such, just how it’s internal volume settings interface with your preamp.


----------



## Rob Watts

Just to confirm, DAC mode is absolutely no difference in the signal path at all; it's just the control function that is changed, in that the volume is set to -3dB and volume change is disabled.


----------



## MacedonianHero

simorag said:


> For those using the DAVE with an headphone amp or integrated amp: do you prefer the DAVE in digital preamp mode or DAC mode, and why?



I really only use the GS-X Mk2 with my DAVE with harder to drive headphones like the Abyss Phi or LCD-4. Everything else that isn't power hungry, I prefer just the DAVE.


----------



## rgs9200m

Has anyone had experience trading older Chord equipment for newer models with a Chord dealer?
Is it much better to sell privately?


----------



## Triode User

rgs9200m said:


> Has anyone had experience trading older Chord equipment for newer models with a Chord dealer?
> Is it much better to sell privately?



You probably need to do the sums yourself based on trade in values that you have been offered. Also take into account that you ought to be able to negotiate a cash (ie no trade in) discount. When I sell second hand kit I always price a kit low to make sure it sells quickly. A good rule of thumb in teh UK is to start at half new retail for the trade in / second hand value and then modify it based on whether the item is newish or slightly older.

I have done both trade in and selling privately depending on how the mood takes me.


----------



## simorag

Rob Watts said:


> Just to confirm, DAC mode is absolutely no difference in the signal path at all; it's just the control function that is changed, in that the volume is set to -3dB and volume change is disabled.



Thanks for the confirmation, at this point I tend to believe that in my A/B testing I fooled myself thinking I was hearing a difference, since the DAVE output has always been kept at -3dB, and the amp volume was also fixed when I was switching between DAC and Pre Amp mode

As @Triode User was saying, perhaps by setting DAVE as Digital Pre and the amp to max output and thus bypassing its analog volume control there could actually be a difference this time. I am going to try that as well


----------



## Crgreen

simorag said:


> Thanks for the confirmation, at this point I tend to believe that in my A/B testing I fooled myself thinking I was hearing a difference, since the DAVE output has always been kept at -3dB, and the amp volume was also fixed when I was switching between DAC and Pre Amp mode
> 
> As @Triode User was saying, perhaps by setting DAVE as Digital Pre and the amp to max output and thus bypassing its analog volume control there could actually be a difference this time. I am going to try that as well



Actually, I’d be cautious in doing that. Try putting Dave into a power amp using digital pre by all means, but I’d be wary about putting digital pre into an amp with it’s own volume control, or that of a pre-amp, set to maximum and using didgital pre alone to control volume. Not only could you get clipping, it it might affect the stability of your equipment.


----------



## STR-1

rgs9200m said:


> Has anyone had experience trading older Chord equipment for newer models with a Chord dealer?
> Is it much better to sell privately?


I think if you’ve got a good relationship with your dealer and a track record of buying from them, you will probably get a better deal there assuming that the item is in very good condition.  They will after all want you to keep coming back for each and every upgrade.

In recent months I have seen some on the forums comment on their inability to get a good private sale price for their Chord Blu 2.  Yet I got an unbelievably good trade-in offer from my dealer for mine, mainly I guess because they know me as a return customer (also bought my DAVE, a Hugo 2 and a Mojo there) who takes exceptionally good care of the kit I am trading in.

Private buyers generally won’t be prepared to pay as much unless they know you and/or can be certain that an active warranty is transferable.


----------



## Triode User

Crgreen said:


> Actually, I’d be cautious in doing that. Try putting Dave into a power amp using digital pre by all means, but I’d be wary about putting digital pre into an amp with it’s own volume control, or that of a pre-amp, set to maximum and using didgital pre alone to control volume. Not only could you get clipping, it it might affect the stability of your equipment.



Caution is always good but in many integrated amps putting the volume pot to max effectively takes it out of the circuit. You are not going to get clipping because you will be feeding a low signal in from the Dave. Clipping happens when too high a signal is fed into the amp from the DAC. (Ok, granted that output clipping can happen when you are driving a low powered amp too hard into low sensitivity speakers but that is not what were are talking about here). If an amp is unstable when the volume is at max with no or low input then maybe it is time to get a better designed amp. 

As I have said, I have done this many times and with all sorts of kit over about 45 years but the usual health warning apply that I am only reporting my own experiences.


----------



## Crgreen

Triode User said:


> Caution is always good but in many integrated amps putting the volume pot to max effectively takes it out of the circuit. You are not going to get clipping because you will be feeding a low signal in from the Dave. Clipping happens when too high a signal is fed into the amp from the DAC. (Ok, granted that output clipping can happen when you are driving a low powered amp too hard into low sensitivity speakers but that is not what were are talking about here). If an amp is unstable when the volume is at max with no or low input then maybe it is time to get a better designed amp.
> 
> As I have said, I have done this many times and with all sorts of kit over about 45 years but the usual health warning apply that I am only reporting my own experiences.



Well,  damaging your existing amp is one way of having to get a better amp, but should you really be advising someone to take that kind of risk?

Personally, I’d check with your amplifier manufacturer first before trying that. I’m not sure preamps and integrated amps are designed  to be run at full output for sustained periods, however low the input signal. And there’s likely to a lot of additional noise. Passive preamps, such as Audio Innovations preamps and those from Music First might be a different matter.


----------



## JaZZ (Aug 23, 2018)

Amplifiers always run at «full power» (fixed gain), volume is regulated at their input – or alternatively by a source with (digital) volume control.

_[Edit: I changed «power amps» to «amplifiers», because preamps are no different.]_


----------



## Crgreen

JaZZ said:


> Amplifiers always run at «full power» (fixed gain), volume is regulated at their input – or alternatively by a source with (digital) volume control.
> 
> _[Edit: I changed «power amps» to «amplifiers», because preamps are no different.]_



And with volume set to maximum, if you were to switch inputs, inadvertently, to a non-variable source, what might happen to your loudspeakers?


----------



## JaZZ

You know the answer. But at least the amp will easily survive.


----------



## Triode User

Crgreen said:


> And with volume set to maximum, if you were to switch inputs, inadvertently, to a non-variable source, what might happen to your loudspeakers?



OK, yes, guys, make sure you turn the volume back to zero again before changing sources but that applies anyway with any amplifier.

Colin we can tell you are not keen but as jaZZ says, the amplifier part always runs at maximum anyway, the volume pot only controls the input signal that is fed to the amplifier. All that is suggested to use Daves wonderful digital volume control instead of the analogue volume circuitry.

Really, I am sorry I mentioned this. I did not think it was a big deal. So if people are happy that you know what you are doing have a go. For all others do not do it.



Crgreen said:


> ’m not sure preamps and integrated amps are designed to be run at full output for sustained periods, however low the input signal. And there’s likely to a lot of additional noise. Passive preamps, such as Audio Innovations preamps and those from Music First might be a different matter.



But if one is using a separate pre amp, whether passive or active, then it means that one is also using a power amp as well in which case my advice is to try taking the preamp out of the system and feed the Dave direct into the poweramp. That is quite normal advice with Dave and a power amp


----------



## Crgreen

JaZZ said:


> You know the answer. But at least the amp will easily survive.



Some good news then.


----------



## AndrewOld (Aug 23, 2018)

rgs9200m said:


> Has anyone had experience trading older Chord equipment for newer models with a Chord dealer?
> Is it much better to sell privately?



I’ve been happy with the deals my dealer gave me when trading up from Hugo to Hugo TT to DAVE. Maybe I could have got more selling privately and pushing for a discount, but the deals I was offered saved hassle and delay, But the Hugo and the TT were current when I traded them in, and I was trading up; things might well be different if you are wanting to trade an item that is no longer sold. No harm in asking a dealer or two, make it clear you are serious, they know the market, no reason why you shouldn’t get a fair deal. But remember, VAT is about 20% of the price of a product (in Europe at least), and your dealer needs to eat and stay in business and make some money, so don’t have unrealistic expectations (especially if you are wanting to sell a Blu2)


----------



## Crgreen

Triode User said:


> OK, yes, guys, make sure you turn the volume back to zero again before changing sources but that applies anyway with any amplifier.
> 
> Colin we can tell you are not keen but as jaZZ says, the amplifier part always runs at maximum anyway, the volume pot only controls the input signal that is fed to the amplifier. All that is suggested to use Daves wonderful digital volume control instead of the analogue volume circuitry.
> 
> ...




I don’t have a problem with trying Dave in Digital pre mode into a power amp. Of course, make very sure that you’ve switched from fixed to pre and set the volume as low as it can go before making the connection. In fact, inadvertently switching digital pre to DAC mode when going straight into a power amp has always worried me. I meant to switch from PCM to DSD using Chord’s “ingenious’ and totally forgettable manual controls and woops, there go my speakers. Maybe I’m just the kind of person to whom such stuff can happen.


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> your dealer needs to eat and stay in business and make some money, so don’t have unrealistic expectations (especially if you are wanting to sell a Blu2)



But many or most of us with Blu2 would not sell it anyway. After all a CD played on Blu2 and MScaler is unbeaten in sound quality.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Triode User said:


> The only difference is that one (DAC mode) is a fixed output (-3dB) and the other is variable. The signal and sound quality is the same apart from the output voltage. If -3dB suits your amp for volume and it doesn't clip into your amp then use that otherwise try the variable output volume and select the output that suits your amp.
> 
> Out of interest, you could try setting your amplifier to maximum volume and using the Dave as the volume control. I never found that better with tube amps but I do find it better with solid state amps because it effectively takes their analogue volume control out of the circuit and uses Dave's much better digital volume control instead.


I replaced a Spectral DMC 30 SS II with great success!


----------



## doraymon

@Rob Watts can you let us know which speakers have you tried with Dave + Etude?
And which one did you enjoy better?


----------



## marcmccalmont

Triode User said:


> OK, yes, guys, make sure you turn the volume back to zero again before changing sources but that applies anyway with any amplifier.
> 
> Colin we can tell you are not keen but as jaZZ says, the amplifier part always runs at maximum anyway, the volume pot only controls the input signal that is fed to the amplifier. All that is suggested to use Daves wonderful digital volume control instead of the analogue volume circuitry.
> 
> ...


And a very good reason to buy a Chord DAC thus eliminating the need for a preamp in an all digital system


----------



## JaZZ

Not to forget the need for a headphone amp.


----------



## burbster

I have recently ordered a Dave and pre ordered an M<scaler, I currently have the chord integrated 2650 amp, but reading the last few posts just wondering would I be better off trading in my amp for a dedicated power amp and using the preamp built in to the dave? Would the preamp section within my 2650 be better than that in the Dave?


----------



## marcmccalmont

burbster said:


> I have recently ordered a Dave and pre ordered an M<scaler, I currently have the chord integrated 2650 amp, but reading the last few posts just wondering would I be better off trading in my amp for a dedicated power amp and using the preamp built in to the dave? Would the preamp section within my 2650 be better than that in the Dave?


The analog output of Dave is better than any preamp sell your integrated amp and buy an etude or Spectral amp!


----------



## JaZZ

Bypassing the preamp – for the most direct signal path – offers the objectively highest sound quality and is the only logical solution. BTW, there's no «preamp» in the DAVE, just a line out with digital volume control.

The Chord Étude looks interesting, but if you have the patience and want near-perfection, wait for Rob's «DX»/PowerPulse amp!


----------



## burbster

Thanks guys for such a quick response, definitely something for me to consider. I will look in to the etude and await more info on the DX.


----------



## jacc

burbster said:


> I have recently ordered a Dave and pre ordered an M<scaler, I currently have the chord integrated 2650 amp, but reading the last few posts just wondering would I be better off trading in my amp for a dedicated power amp and using the preamp built in to the dave? Would the preamp section within my 2650 be better than that in the Dave?



I think the only way to know the answer is to try that out by yourself. In my system DAVE sound the best at -3db using balance out to another preamp. YMMV


----------



## marcmccalmont

JaZZ said:


> Bypassing the preamp – for the most direct signal path – offers the objectively highest sound quality and is the only logical solution. BTW, there's no «preamp» in the DAVE, just a line out with digital volume control.
> 
> The Chord Étude looks interesting, but if you have the patience and want near-perfection, wait for Rob's «DX»/PowerPulse amp!


I think it will be a very interesting shoot out a Bob Cordell feed forward linear power supply amp vs a Rob Watts feed back minimum parts switching power supply amp!


----------



## Crgreen

JaZZ said:


> Bypassing the preamp – for the most direct signal path – offers the objectively highest sound quality and is the only logical solution. BTW, there's no «preamp» in the DAVE, just a line out with digital volume control.
> 
> The Chord Étude looks interesting, but if you have the patience and want near-perfection, wait for Rob's «DX»/PowerPulse amp!



How will the Dave fit into the chain with the new m-scaler and digital amp - what exactly will it be doing?

Did Rob work on the Etude?


----------



## JaZZ (Aug 24, 2018)

Crgreen said:


> How will the Dave fit into the chain with the new m-scaler and digital amp - what exactly will it be doing?
> 
> Did Rob work on the Etude?


I really don't know if the DAVE still has a logical function between M-Scaler and DX amp.

No, the Étude is John Franks' work.


----------



## Mojo ideas

burbster said:


> Thanks guys for such a quick response, definitely something for me to consider. I will look in to the etude and await more info on the DX.


Sorry to burst your bubble guys Rob hasn’t even a paper design for the DX Amps.  Let alone a working rough and ready prototype.  Therefore to categorically scotch any more nonesense rumours.  I can confirm that the “ DX Amps are at least several years from being fully developed and put into production.  Please note that Rob has been talking about them with us at Chord for about ten years now and the concept has  changed several times, so make of that what you will. I’m sure when they are ready they will be amazing but please don’t include them in your Christmas shopping list just yet. However the best amplifier to closely match the stunning speed and have great power performance of the Dave Dac is about to be available through our retailers. Its the very advanced 150watt Etude Amp and not the DX from Chord. Now Saying all that there may be another little surprise from Rob and Myself coming along sometime soon and But I really mean little like, kinda smallish but rather special!


----------



## burbster

Mojo ideas said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble guys Rob hasn’t even a paper design for the DX Amps.  Let alone a working rough and ready prototype.  Therefore to categorically scotch any more nonesense rumours.  I can confirm that the “ DX Amps are at least several years from being fully developed and put into production.  Please note that Rob has been talking about them with us at Chord for about ten years now and the concept has  changed several times, so make of that what you will. I’m sure when they are ready they will be amazing but please don’t include them in your Christmas shopping list just yet. However the best amplifier to closely match the stunning speed and have great power performance of the Dave Dac is about to be available through our retailers. Its the very advanced 150watt Etude Amp and not the DX from Chord. Now Saying all that there may be another little surprise from Rob and Myself coming along sometime soon and But I really mean little like, kinda smallish but rather special!



Thanks John, I will pop into my local store tomorrow and register my interest for a home demo, I guess it will land similar time to Mscaler?


----------



## burbster

John, I appreciate a home demo is the only way to truly tell, but from your perspective do you think there are technical reasons why the etude may offer better sound when paired with a Dave, rather than my current amp, the Chord 2650?


----------



## Crgreen

JaZZ said:


> I really don't know if the DAVE still has a logical function between M-Scaler and DX amp.
> 
> No, the Étude is John Franks' work.



So for this new Dave owner, who has put in an order for the new m-scaler, why would it be worth waiting for the DX amp, as you suggested?

In any event, looks like the DX amp won’t be around for a bit.


----------



## JaZZ

Crgreen said:


> *So for this new Dave owner, who has put in an order for the new m-scaler, why would it be worth waiting for the DX amp, as you suggested?*
> 
> In any event, looks like the DX amp won’t be around for a bit.


Because it's supposed to be the best amp you can get for M-Scaler and/or DAVE. If the DAVE turns out to be redundant, there's no harm done, as it would free some cash. Sure, any other (conventional) power amp would leave the DAVE's right to exist intact, but in fact you would gain nothing and moreover have just the second best solution.


----------



## Crgreen

Mojo ideas said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble guys Rob hasn’t even a paper design for the DX Amps.  Let alone a working rough and ready prototype.  Therefore to categorically scotch any more nonesense rumours.  I can confirm that the “ DX Amps are at least several years from being fully developed and put into production.  Please note that Rob has been talking about them with us at Chord for about ten years now and the concept has  changed several times, so make of that what you will. I’m sure when they are ready they will be amazing but please don’t include them in your Christmas shopping list just yet. However the best amplifier to closely match the stunning speed and have great power performance of the Dave Dac is about to be available through our retailers. Its the very advanced 150watt Etude Amp and not the DX from Chord. Now Saying all that there may be another little surprise from Rob and Myself coming along sometime soon and But I really mean little like, kinda smallish but rather special!



A dealer mentioned to me that Rob had told him he’d cracked digital amps about 20 years ago.


----------



## Mojo ideas (Aug 24, 2018)

Mojo ideas said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble guys Rob hasn’t even a paper design for the DX Amps.  Let alone a working rough and ready prototype.  Therefore to categorically scotch any more nonesense rumours.  I can confirm that the “ DX Amps are at least several years from being fully developed and put into production.  Please note that Rob has been talking about them with us at Chord for about ten years now and the concept has  changed several times, so make of that what you will. I’m sure when they are ready they will be amazing but please don’t include them in your Christmas shopping list just yet. However the best amplifier to closely match the stunning speed and have great power performance of the Dave Dac is about to be available through our retailers. Its the very advanced 150watt Etude Amp and not the DX from Chord. Now Saying all that there may be another little surprise from Rob and Myself coming along sometime soon and But I really mean little like, kinda smallish but rather special!





burbster said:


> Thanks guys for such a quick response, definitely something for me to consider. I will look in to the etude and await more info on the DX.





burbster said:


> John, I appreciate a home demo is the only way to truly tell, but from your perspective do you think there are technical reasons why the etude may offer better sound when paired with a Dave, rather than my current amp, the Chord 2650?





burbster said:


> John, I appreciate a home demo is the only way to truly tell, but from your perspective do you think there are technical reasons why the etude may offer better sound when paired with a Dave, rather than my current amp, the Chord 2650?





burbster said:


> John, I appreciate a home demo is the only way to truly tell, but from your perspective do you think there are technical reasons why the etude may offer better sound when paired with a Dave, rather than my current amp, the Chord 2650?


 Rob showed us the ultra high frequency performance way beyond the typical high quality audio performance of say forty to fifty KHz matters intensely. Especially when the brain needs to determine enough information to create a truly realistic sound stage with great depth.  Now all our amps are fast but the Etude is an order of magnitude faster it’s performance is out standing. 


Crgreen said:


> A dealer mentioned to me that Rob had told him he’d cracked digital amps about 20 years ago.


I’m not saying that he hasn’t! Its just that the DX amps are not even in his development program yet! They will be just not yet!


----------



## Crgreen

Mojo ideas said:


> Rob showed us the ultra high frequency performance way beyond the typical high quality audio performance of say forty to fifty KHz matters intensely. Especially when the brain needs to determine enough information to create a truly realistic sound stage with great depth.  Now all our amps are fast but the Etude is an order of magnitude faster it’s performance is out standing.
> 
> I’m not saying that he hasn’t! Its just that the DX amps are not even in his development program yet! They will be just not yet!



And I didn’t say that he had, only passing on what I was told, from which it would appear that it’s a project on which he’s been working for some years. It would seem that it’s yet to reach fruition. Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## JaZZ (Aug 25, 2018)

Mojo ideas said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble guys Rob hasn’t even a paper design for the DX Amps.  Let alone a working rough and ready prototype.  Therefore to categorically scotch any more nonesense rumours.  I can confirm that the “ DX Amps are at least several years from being fully developed and put into production.  Please note that Rob has been talking about them with us at Chord for about ten years now and the concept has  changed several times, so make of that what you will. I’m sure when they are ready they will be amazing but please don’t include them in your Christmas shopping list just yet. However the best amplifier to closely match the stunning speed and have great power performance of the Dave Dac is about to be available through our retailers. Its the very advanced 150watt Etude Amp and not the DX from Chord. Now Saying all that there may be another little surprise from Rob and Myself coming along sometime soon and But I really mean little like, kinda smallish but rather special!


John, in this case: Sorry for steering people away from your Étude for an unrealistic alternative! I'm sure it's more than worth its price.



Mojo ideas said:


> Rob showed us the ultra high frequency performance way beyond the typical high quality audio performance of say forty to fifty KHz matters intensely. Especially when the brain needs to determine enough information to create a truly realistic sound stage with great depth. Now all our amps are fast but the Etude is an order of magnitude faster it’s performance is out standing.


I absolutely agree on the high-frequency thing, from own experience: My Metaxas Solitaire (modified for even greater HF extension!) is by far the best speaker amp I've ever heard. Its main feature is its extreme bandwidth, and it's kind of audible in the extreme clarity and definition of the tones. That's why I also favor Spectral amps, without having heard them. I'm glad the Étude belongs to the same family. Sadly I'm not into speakers anymore (after being a fanatic speaker builder for many years).


----------



## marcmccalmont

JaZZ said:


> John, in this case: Sorry for stearing people away from your Étude for an unrealistic alternative! I'm sure it's more than worth its price.
> 
> 
> I absolutely agree on the high-frequency thing, from own experience: My Metaxas Solitaire (modified for even greater HF extension!) is by far the best speaker amp I've ever heard. Its main feature is its extreme bandwidth, and it's kind of audible in the extreme clarity and definition of the tones. That's why I also favor Spectral amps, without having heard them. I'm glad the Étude belongs to the same family. Sadly I'm not into speakers anymore (after being a fanatic speaker builder for many years).


As it was explained to me ultra wide bandwidth amps gain sonic benefits not from the wide bandwidth but because feedback artifacts are pushed up to inaudible frequencies. I love my Spectrals and am really excited about future Franks/Cordell super amp designs


----------



## rgs9200m (Aug 24, 2018)

I would never dismiss the value of a great preamp as absolutely a negative factor. There is a world of preamps out there and some are wonderful.

Technically, active preamps have not been necessary since the dawn of the digital age 35 years ago (if you are not into vinyl or tape), as there was nothing really to amplify, just attenuate.

Nevertheless, they still have a huge following in the audiophile community.
Some people even build their system around them (like with some exotic species like Shindo and DarTZeel).


----------



## Amberlamps (Aug 24, 2018)

Mojo ideas said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble guys Rob hasn’t even a paper design for the DX Amps.  Let alone a working rough and ready prototype.  Therefore to categorically scotch any more nonesense rumours.  I can confirm that the “ DX Amps are at least several years from being fully developed and put into production.  Please note that Rob has been talking about them with us at Chord for about ten years now and the concept has  changed several times, so make of that what you will. I’m sure when they are ready they will be amazing but please don’t include them in your Christmas shopping list just yet. However the best amplifier to closely match the stunning speed and have great power performance of the Dave Dac is about to be available through our retailers. Its the very advanced 150watt Etude Amp and not the DX from Chord. Now Saying all that there may be another little surprise from Rob and Myself coming along sometime soon and But I really mean little like, kinda smallish but rather special!



Hmmmmm.

So why the DX markings on the MScaler, seems weird that DX is stamped into something that will no doubt be obsolescent by the time DX amps get released.  Honestly, I think I will have moved on from tt2 and mscaler in 10 years time.  Technology just can’t keep up with me.

I am just thinking out aloud and wondering What, dx buttons but no dx. Obvious is now using non ir emitting dpm camoflage and is no longer obvious.

Something “special”, OMG 2go is imminent, great stuff.

Not really, as I have just traded in my hugo. 

Cheers for ruining my friday John.



Only joking John. I have no need for a DX Amp, but I do like the idea of a H2 streamer.  If 2go gets released this year, I am going to kill the other half of my liver.

There is not enough months in the year for new chord products. Would be great if they had staggered release dates as one simply does not have enough money.

< will be gutted if 2go shows up in stores this year.


----------



## Hubert H

marcmccalmont said:


> I think it will be a very interesting shoot out a Bob Cordell feed forward linear power supply amp vs a Rob Watts feed back minimum parts switching power supply amp!



From the Chord site “Internally there are three individual high frequency switch mode power supply units, one for each active power rail and a final for the auxiliary rails”


----------



## maxh22

Mojo ideas said:


> there may be another little surprise from Rob and Myself coming along sometime soon and But I really mean little like, kinda smallish but rather special!



I had a dream a few days ago where I was talking with Rob at a canjam show and I was listening to a H2/ m scaler and the sound was absolutely incredible... 

I haven’t heard the H2 with the scaler yet but I did hear Dave with it and it was definitely an amazing experience.

Rob gave me the H2 and m scaler and said “Here, you can keep this demo unit we have plenty to go around” I asked if he was sure and he noded, I woke up really excited but then realized it was only a dream lol. However, the thing is, the m scaler in my dream was the size of the H2! 

Hopefully that day will come one day! 

I’m not sure what little special item you have prepared for us but I’d be surprised if it was a Mojo 2 that fits poly, maybe 2 Go?


----------



## jlbrach

JaZZ said:


> Bypassing the preamp – for the most direct signal path – offers the objectively highest sound quality and is the only logical solution. BTW, there's no «preamp» in the DAVE, just a line out with digital volume control.
> 
> The Chord Étude looks interesting, but if you have the patience and want near-perfection, wait for Rob's «DX»/PowerPulse amp!



there are certain headphones that simply require an external amp...for instance my susvara


----------



## yakaway

I feel the abyss, not the phi, also require an amp.

Through dave, my utopias sound better than the abyss.


----------



## jlbrach

agreed the utopia is incredibly efficient and does not need an amp...the Phi IMHO also needs an external amp


----------



## marcmccalmont

Hubert H said:


> From the Chord site “Internally there are three individual high frequency switch mode power supply units, one for each active power rail and a final for the auxiliary rails”


I’m hoping for a future Super amp, monoblock high current feedforward convective cooled Spectral killer!


----------



## marcmccalmont

jlbrach said:


> agreed the utopia is incredibly efficient and does not need an amp...the Phi IMHO also needs an external amp


I thought my Utopias needed an amp but then they broke in 5 months later! Now the bass is tight and articulate


----------



## Amberlamps

marcmccalmont said:


> I thought my Utopias needed an amp but then they broke in 5 months later! Now the bass is tight and articulate



I had a similar experience. Not with Utopias or bass

It was my tinnitus, it went from morse code 56k modem soft and only heard at night and inbed to What ringgggggggggggggggggg loud 24/7.

Atleast the upper range of my hearing is all right, if it wasn’t, i wouldn’t be able to hear my tinnitus. I blame dekoni elite sheep earpads.


----------



## ZappaMan

Mojo ideas said:


> Now Saying all that there may be another little surprise from Rob and Myself coming along sometime soon and But I really mean little like, kinda smallish but rather special!


Would it have a 2 in its name ?


----------



## JaZZ

I believe _Rob_ isn't involved in the 2Go. ...Hence something else...?


----------



## Triode User

JaZZ said:


> I believe _Rob_ isn't involved in the 2Go. ...Hence something else...?



Unless you are being too literal. After all Rob probably has some remit as to the interface. . . .


----------



## STR-1

JaZZ said:


> I believe _Rob_ isn't involved in the 2Go. ...Hence something else...?


Mojo 2 (with integrated Poly functionality)?


----------



## Triode User

STR-1 said:


> Mojo 2 (with integrated Poly functionality)?



‘Smallish’ so could be.


----------



## Amberlamps

ZappaMan said:


> Would it have a 2 in its name ?



I wish it was that Chord Table cloth I saw a few months back.

But John did say it’s small so that kinda rules out a 6 foot table cloth.


----------



## STR-1

Triode User said:


> ‘Smallish’ so could be.


If it is, and with inbult Poly functionality, it will put a nail in the 2Go coffin before that even sees the light of day.  Talking to Chord at CanJam about the 2Go I got the sense that they were stepping back a bit from enthusiastically looking forward to its launch.  They not unreasonably said they wanted to be sure to get things right before launching following experience with the Poly.  But...well...


----------



## Amberlamps

STR-1 said:


> Mojo 2 (with integrated Poly functionality)?




Ahahahahahahahaha

Stop with the jokes my side is hurting.

If it was true, the pump house would overnight become the burnt house.

You should of posted that over in the poly thread, I have always wondered what suicide looked like.


----------



## STR-1

Phuca said:


> You should of posted that over in the poly thread, I have always wondered what suicide looked like.


Not likely.  That thread is one to be viewed from a safe distance.  

Actually, if a Mojo, it’s more likely to be a straight Mojo upgrade that incorporates some Rob Watts improvements and better pairs with the Poly.  I think the Mojo was just about due for an upgrade now anyway.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Phuca said:


> I had a similar experience. Not with Utopias or bass
> 
> It was my tinnitus, it went from morse code 56k modem soft and only heard at night and inbed to What ringgggggggggggggggggg loud 24/7.
> 
> Atleast the upper range of my hearing is all right, if it wasn’t, i wouldn’t be able to hear my tinnitus. I blame dekoni elite sheep earpads.


I’ve been flying jets for 40 years always protected my ears with ear plugs but mild tinnitus is common in pilots. A teaspoon of apple cider vinegar helps to minimize it. Takes a month or so to see sorry hear results


----------



## Amberlamps

STR-1 said:


> Not likely.  That thread is one to be viewed from a safe distance.
> 
> Actually, if a Mojo, it’s more likely to be a straight Mojo upgrade that incorporates some Rob Watts improvements and better pairs with the Poly.  I think the Mojo was just about due for an upgrade now anyway.



If Chord come out with a new Mojo or a new Mojo and Poly this year, I will never buy chord again.

This year I will have spent close to £10 grand on chord products and after the poly fiasco, which is still continuing, if they sprung a new mojo on us now I would then assume that the company has no loyalty towards its fans and is a greedy company.

Just because its one of their cheaper products, it doesn’t matter, to me a £900 mojo and poly rates the same as if I bought a dave. I don’t expect an overnight upgrade, especially when they are still releasing dedicated addon modules for it that is plagued with problems.

Would people still buy those modules if they knew a mojo 2 was coming out this year ?  I know I would not of bought Poly had that been the case.

The best I can hope for is that they wait until next summer at the earliest, as I can forsee a riot in the poly thread if a new mojo or mojo/poly combo is released.

Thats how I would feel, but I am sure Chord will take their loyal fans considerations into account before pulling the trigger on a dumb idea.


----------



## Amberlamps

marcmccalmont said:


> I’ve been flying jets for 40 years always protected my ears with ear plugs but mild tinnitus is common in pilots. A teaspoon of apple cider vinegar helps to minimize it. Takes a month or so to see sorry hear results



I will try that but I fear its already too late. 

You ever had a gun go off in a confined space inches from your unprotected ear ?  I lost bass for a week, it was weird. 

You get 1 post like for mentioning the word “Jets”.


----------



## ZappaMan

Phuca said:


> I will try that but I fear its already too late.
> 
> You ever had a gun go off in a confined space inches from your unprotected ear ?  I lost bass for a week, it was weird.
> 
> You get 1 post like for mentioning the word “Jets”.


You get 1 like for drawing attention to this fact.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Phuca said:


> I will try that but I fear its already too late.
> 
> You ever had a gun go off in a confined space inches from your unprotected ear ?  I lost bass for a week, it was weird.
> 
> You get 1 post like for mentioning the word “Jets”.


Just keep it up for several months and one day you’ll notice it is less.


----------



## JaZZ

marcmccalmont said:


> I’ve been flying jets for 40 years always protected my ears with ear plugs but mild tinnitus is common in pilots. A teaspoon of apple cider vinegar helps to minimize it. Takes a month or so to see sorry hear results


Into the ear or into the mouth? (Serious question.)


----------



## marcmccalmont

JaZZ said:


> Into the ear or into the mouth? (Serious question.)


Mouth! Either straight or in a small glass of water


----------



## ZappaMan

JaZZ said:


> Into the ear or into the mouth? (Serious question.)


I’d presumed into the ear


----------



## Triode User

At the risk of going OT, cider vinegar is well known and used in the equine world (my other hobby apart from audio)


----------



## JaZZ

Phuca said:


> I know I would not *of* bought Poly had that been the case.


Out of curiosity – from a native German speaker – and completely off topic: I see _you_ and _paul2cute_ often use «of» instead of «have». Is this an official (slang) variant?


----------



## JaZZ

Triode User said:


> At the risk of going OT, cider vinegar is well known and used in the equine world (my other hobby apart from audio)


So horses also suffer from tinnitus?


----------



## Triode User

JaZZ said:


> Out of curiosity – from a native German speaker – and completely off topic: I see _you_ and _paul2cute_ often use «of» instead of «have». Is this an official (slang) variant?



I always thought it was a region ‘thing’ but it is becoming more widespread. 

But, please do not get me started about sloppy use of english. My current pet hate is people starting sentences in response to a question with, “So, . . . . “. This is particularly widespread with a Radio 4 interviewees.


----------



## iDesign (Aug 26, 2018)

Phuca said:


> If Chord come out with a new Mojo or a new Mojo and Poly this year, I will never buy chord again.
> 
> This year I will have spent close to £10 grand on chord products and after the poly fiasco, which is still continuing, if they sprung a new mojo on us now I would then assume that the company has no loyalty towards its fans and is a greedy company.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I have long said that Chord risks losing customers by releasing the next generation of products too quickly. Chord must not make the mistake of trying to take advantage of our consumerist culture and throw away mentality that has been driven by planned obsolescence and the annual iPhone 3GS, 4, 4S, 5, 5S/C/E, 6, 6S, 7, 8, and X cycle. The Qute/EX/HD, 2Qute, Qutest path won’t bode well and it’s already making people like you weary.

Chord is far more likely to maintain customer loyalty by slowing the product cycle and instead offering upgrades and modular accessories for existing products. For example, the Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 and Gen 5 USB upgrades have been extremely successful and it has substantially reduced the secondhand market for used Yggdrasils and increased brand loyalty. Chord would be better off offering upgrades, firmware updates, or creating affordable add-ons (e.g. the M Scaler, a Chord version of the ultraRendu or SMS-200 Ultra etc etc). If the worldwide economy were to stumble, I'm certain people are more likely to buy an affordable upgrade than they are a new DAVE 2 during those years.

You also make a valid point that the inconsistent physical enclosures of Chord products could make it impossible for owners of expensive accessories like the Poly and 2Go to use them with all new products. Chord needs to be very careful about their next steps and I’m sure if Chord released a new version of the DAVE within the next several years it would massively backfire. Dropping mysterious hints about forthcoming products only perpetuates the problem and it stifles sales in the interim-- it seems strange and counterintuitive for the founder of the company to do so. Adding a few more taps to each new Chord DAC will become just as predictable and boring as removing the Home Button from the iPhone. Consumers are tired of this cycle and that’s why they have continued using their old iPhone 6, switched to Android, or began leasing phones-- and unsurprisingly sales of the iPhone X were not as big of a "super bowl” win as Apple hoped. Hopefully Chord won’t repeat Apple’s history and as a new entrant into the world of headphones, I would like to see them continue on the right path.


----------



## Triode User

JaZZ said:


> So horses also suffer from tinnitus?



I wondered why my horse was ignoring me! 

But no, it is used as a supplement for joint stiffness problems with horses. See, there is foo in other hobbies as well as HiFi.


----------



## STR-1

Triode User said:


> But, please do not get me started about sloppy use of english. My current pet hate is people starting sentences in response to a question with, “So, . . . . “. This is particularly widespread with a Radio 4 interviewees.


Academics are notorious for doing this.  Always sounds like they are exercising great patience in explaining something to you that you should already know.


----------



## Imusicman

For me Chord are leading the way with their range of products and they obviously aren’t resting on their laurels.
I’m sure whatever they are about announce and subsequently launch will be hugely successful and be embraced by the audiophile community. Exciting times ahead!


----------



## STR-1

Phuca said:


> Would people still buy those modules if they knew a mojo 2 was coming out this year ? I know I would not of bought Poly had that been the case.
> 
> The best I can hope for is that they wait until next summer at the earliest, as I can forsee a riot in the poly thread if a new mojo or mojo/poly combo is released.



At the risk of extending discussion of Mojo beyond what is acceptable on the DAVE thread, if they announce a new Mojo in two or three months time for release in spring/summer 2019, that would be the same gap following the original Mojo announcement as the gap between the Hugo and Hugo 2 announcements.  If the new product it is to be a Mojo 2, and ignoring the dreaming of my first post on this, it will almost certainly be the same form factor as Mojo 1 and will be usable with the Poly.


----------



## jarnopp

STR-1 said:


> At the risk of extending discussion of Mojo beyond what is acceptable on the DAVE thread, if they announce a new Mojo in two or three months time for release in spring/summer 2019, that would be the same gap following the original Mojo announcement as the gap between the Hugo and Hugo 2 announcements.  If the new product it is to be a Mojo 2, and ignoring the dreaming of my first post on this, it will almost certainly be the same form factor as Mojo 1 and will be usable with the Poly.



Mojo2, 2x taps, 10e pulse array, desktop mode, and digital out to drive the DX amps. $749.


----------



## Amberlamps

JaZZ said:


> Out of curiosity – from a native German speaker – and completely off topic: I see _you_ and _paul2cute_ often use «of» instead of «have». Is this an official (slang) variant?



I think it’s just a German/Swiss thing, I would sway more to the german side, you know how a..l they can be about the small details.

Sounding like Boris the buffoon Johnson” is not a good thing.

Are you the german/swiss version of Boris the Buffoon

< understood your veiled insult and I give it nil pois, for it’s unoriginality and lack of style.

If I was to retort. I would say something like “Official Slang” ?


----------



## miketlse

JaZZ said:


> Out of curiosity – from a native German speaker – and completely off topic: I see _you_ and _paul2cute_ often use «of» instead of «have». Is this an official (slang) variant?


Strictly speaking it is poor use of the english language, and is mentioned as an example at grammarly.com.
At work, when i have to proof read documents, I would correct the text.
On head-fi, I have learnt to ignore such minor discretions.


----------



## JaZZ

_Phuca..._

You completely misinterpreted my post – and apologies for underestimating the potential virulence of the topic. Of course I've considered the possibility of a wrong use of the word – which you seem to confirm with your response –, but I encounter it too often to ignore the possibility that it's an established component of the colloquial language – which I'm less familiar with than the written language.


----------



## Amberlamps

Its ok.


----------



## S Crowther

marcmccalmont said:


> I’ve been flying jets for 40 years always protected my ears with ear plugs but mild tinnitus is common in pilots. A teaspoon of apple cider vinegar helps to minimize it. Takes a month or so to see sorry hear results


Do you drink the cider or pour ou into your ears?


----------



## S Crowther

Triode User said:


> I always thought it was a region ‘thing’ but it is becoming more widespread.
> 
> But, please do not get me started about sloppy use of english. My current pet hate is people starting sentences in response to a question with, “So, . . . . “. This is particularly widespread with a Radio 4 interviewees.


Mine is people using verbs as nouns: "launch" instead of "launching". e.g. " the launch of a new Chord product".  A launch is a small boat.


----------



## Crgreen

S Crowther said:


> Mine is people using verbs as nouns: "launch" instead of "launching". e.g. " the launch of a new Chord product".  A launch is a small boat.



What nonsense. According to the OED, “launch” can be used a a verb or a noun, and in the case of the latter gives the example: “The launch of a new campaign against drinking and driving”. As a noun “launch” also means a small motor boat. 

So: what can we conclude? You guys would be better sticking to talk about ferrites.


----------



## S Crowther

Crgreen said:


> What nonsense. According to the OED, “launch” can be used a a verb or a noun, and in the case of the latter gives the example: “The launch of a new campaign against drinking and driving”. As a noun “launch” also means a small motor boat.
> 
> So: what can we conclude? You guys would be better sticking to talk about ferrites.


The policy of the OED is I believe to reflect current usage.


----------



## Crgreen (Aug 26, 2018)

S Crowther said:


> The policy of the OED is I believe to reflect current usage.



But you’re saying currrent usage is wrong. I’ve done a quick Google search, and I can find nothing to suggest that  instead of “The launch of” you should say “The launching of”. Indeed, The former is a noun and I think the latter is an adjectival use of a verb, with which some might take issue, though I don’t.

Are you suggesting the OED, and all the online dictionaries I’ve checked, are wrong? If so, can you cite some better authority? For most people, the OED is sufficient.


----------



## miketlse

S Crowther said:


> The policy of the OED is I believe to reflect current usage.


The english language has been continually evolving for at least two thousand years, so anyone trying to insist that any dictionary remains fixed and unchanging, is fighting a losing battle.
Following that approach is used in France, but most people prefer current usage, rather than trying to seem as if they are stuck in previous centuries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Académie_française


----------



## S Crowther

Crgreen said:


> But you’re saying currrent usage is wrong. I’ve done a quick Google search, and I can find nothing to suggest that  instead of “The launch of” you should say “The launching of”. Indeed, The former is a noun and I think the latter is an adjectival use of a verb, to which some might take issue, though I don’t.
> 
> Are you suggesting the OED, and all the online dictionaries I’ve checked, are wrong? If so, can you cite some better authority? For most people, the OED is sufficient.


Not at all. Read my post. I said it was my pet hate. Current usage is neither right nor wrong: it is a fact, for good or ill. Try  "the reveal of the new Chord product".  I was taught to use a gerund in that kind of phrase.
Anyway hopelessly off topic.


----------



## Crgreen

S Crowther said:


> Not at all. Read my post. I said it was my pet hate. Current usage is neither right nor wrong: it is a fact, for good or ill. Try  "the reveal of the new Chord product".  I was taught to use a gerund in that kind of phrase.
> Anyway hopelessly off topic.



That’s a poor example, as “reveal” in that sense can only be used as a verb (it can also be used as a noun, but means something different). My point was simple: “launch” as a noun is not restricted to meaning a small boat, and so far as I can tell, never has. What you were taught has no application in this case. If you’re going to have pet hates, it’s probabably best if they have some foundation and are not mere whims or the result of confusion.

As you say, this is all off-topic, but you did decide to raise it.


----------



## burbster

OK, in an effort to try and steer us back to something 'Dave' related, I have just ordered a Dave in Black here in the UK and have been told I will have a 6 week wait, is this generally the same elsewhere? I suspect the units are too expensive for stores to keep a stock?


----------



## burbster

I should have said 'in stock' before anyone else comments on poor use of the English language.


----------



## Crgreen

miketlse said:


> The english language has been continually evolving for at least two thousand years, so anyone trying to insist that any dictionary remains fixed and unchanging, is fighting a losing battle.
> Following that approach is used in France, but most people prefer current usage, rather than trying to seem as if they are stuck in previous centuries.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Académie_française



I don’t think anybody would suggest that. Usage and grammatical rules or conventions change. On the other hand, as with any language, it’s not a case of anything goes. Where you draw the line in any particular case is often the subject of heated debate, but in this case the point being made seems incorrect according to any usage, past or present - “launch” can be used, and has always been used, as both a verb and a noun. Having said that, I don’t have a copy of the full OED which gives examples of the earliest known use of words.


----------



## miketlse

burbster said:


> OK, in an effort to try and steer us back to something 'Dave' related, I have just ordered a Dave in Black here in the UK and have been told I will have a 6 week wait, is this generally the same elsewhere? I suspect the units are too expensive for stores to keep a stock?


Yes, the more expensive items such as DAVE and Blu2 are made to order, so it is inevitable that there is some waiting period.
It is less risky for dealers to keep stock of the cheaper items such as Mojo and Poly. Also they are produced in large batches, so in the event that a dealer is out of stock, there is only a short delay to new stocks arriving.


----------



## Crgreen

burbster said:


> OK, in an effort to try and steer us back to something 'Dave' related, I have just ordered a Dave in Black here in the UK and have been told I will have a 6 week wait, is this generally the same elsewhere? I suspect the units are too expensive for stores to keep a stock?



I think 6 weeks is the standard time given to dealers for the Dave. It’s what I was told, but it took 2 months. That was in silver and it seems black might take longer. I think they are all made to order.


----------



## Amberlamps

Lol, dave thread is now ruined.

Some of you lot need your life support turned off.

Tell me, were you all as bad as this before you bought a Dave, or is being miserable a side effect from owning / using one ?

If it’s a side effect, then I will never buy one, as I don’t want to be as “*miserable* *and stuck up” *as some of you here. 

Jolly good chap’s, I will see you at the next polo event.

Bumbling buffoons.


----------



## Crgreen

Phuca said:


> Lol, dave thread is now ruined.
> 
> Some of you lot need your life support turned off.
> 
> ...



Good news. It sounds like we won’t have to put up with your rambling posts any longer. Mission accomplished.


----------



## Amberlamps (Aug 26, 2018)

Crgreen said:


> Good news. It sounds like we won’t have to put up with your rambling posts any longer. Mission accomplished.



Oh, I am still here

My ramblings > being pretentious.....

How do I know this ?

It’s because you don’t have a copy of the full OED.

That alone puts you into the “at risk of suicide” category.

Mission Accomplished can only be declared if the Launch was successful.

Nasa has confirmed, a new Challenger blew up on launch.

In 1986.

Your mission/post was always doomed to failure.


----------



## burbster

Phuca said:


> Lol, dave thread is now ruined.
> 
> Some of you lot need your life support turned off.
> 
> ...



Ha Ha, very good, unfortunately Polo never took off in the welsh valleys, can't think why. Shame really, I love nothing more than a good game of Polo followed by a few pints and a curry!!!


----------



## ZappaMan

I find the concept of ‘cultural capital’ relevant

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_capital

I think sometimes cultural capital is used to divide people, or used within a group, to reinforce a perceived superiority.

Being from a modest background, I never did like it when people would try to put the hurts on someone else, for their perceived lack of cultural capital.

I’m not saying that is the case here, but I suppose jazz was interested in why certain things can be annoying, although I’m not speaking for anyone but myself here.


----------



## masterpfa (Aug 26, 2018)

Mojo ideas said:


> Now Saying all that there may be another little surprise from Rob and Myself coming along sometime soon and But I really mean little like, kinda smallish but rather special!


You tease you


----------



## STR-1

Mojo ideas said:


> Now Saying all that there may be another little surprise from Rob and Myself coming along sometime soon and But I really mean little like, kinda smallish but rather special!


I’ve gone off the idea that this might be a Mojo 2.  New idea - a small lapel badge commemorating five years since launch of the Hugo, with a small photo insert of Rob, John and Hugo, perhaps surrounded by a ring of coloured segments matching the different sample rate lights, to be given away free with each new purchase of a Chord dac.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Just in! The Blue MKII is still in the box.


----------



## Amberlamps

STR-1 said:


> I’ve gone off the idea that this might be a Mojo 2.  New idea - a small lapel badge commemorating five years since launch of the Hugo, with a small photo insert of Rob, John and Hugo, perhaps surrounded by a ring of coloured segments matching the different sample rate lights, to be given away free with each new purchase of a Chord dac.



Could also be a xmas card to all registered Chord whatever owners.

I still think it’s a table cloth.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Unboxed and listening over dual BNC. Most excellent.


----------



## S Crowther (Aug 27, 2018)

Crgreen said:


> I don’t think anybody would suggest that. Usage and grammatical rules or conventions change. On the other hand, as with any language, it’s not a case of anything goes. Where you draw the line in any particular case is often the subject of heated debate, but in this case the point being made seems incorrect according to any usage, past or present - “launch” can be used, and has always been used, as both a verb and a noun. Having said that, I don’t have a copy of the full OED which gives examples of the earliest known use of words.


Dictionaries are really beside the point as they comment on general usage past (sometimes) and present, not what is grammatically current. I am open to correction but I do not remember "launch" being used this way until the last few years. Another example is "divide" as in the " divide between rich and poor". the noun  is division, but what people usually mean is "gap". I think divide has been used like this for a long time.  I gave the example previously of "reveal" that is being used more and more as a noun.  The noun is "revelation". The gerund is "revealing". We used to say "unveiling". Watching NFL you hear the commentators say a player has "broken contain".

I shall say nothing more on the topic.
Getting back to business: I have a Chord TT. I am thinking of upgrading (why I don't know as the TT sounds great) and can't decide whether to get the Dave or perhaps an R2R DAC. The thing I do not like about the Dave (and the TT) is that you are paying for amplification also and I use an external head amp.


----------



## Whazzzup




----------



## audio_1

S Crowther said:


> Dictionaries are really beside the point as they comment on general usage past (sometimes) and present, not what is grammatically current. I am open to correction but I do not remember "launch" being used this way until the last few years. Another example is "divide" as in the " divide between rich and poor". the noun  is division, but what people usually mean is "gap". I think divide has been used like this for a long time.  I gave the example previously of "reveal" that is being used more and more as a noun.  The noun is "revelation". The gerund is "revealing". We used to say "unveiling". Watching NFL you hear the commentators say a player has "broken contain".
> 
> I shall say nothing more on the topic.
> Getting back to business: I have a Chord TT. I am thinking of upgrading (why I don't know as the TT sounds great) and can't decide whether to get the Dave or perhaps an R2R DAC. The thing I do not like about the Dave (and the TT) is that you are paying for amplification also and I use an external head amp.




The amplification in Dave is less than in chip based R2R DACs as it doesn't require current to voltage conversion. As posted by Rob "Yes my DAC architecture is very simple, and this accounts (in part) for it's transparency. In a conventional DAC you have, by necessity, a very complex analogue section - a differential architecture, with two current to voltage converters (I to V), differential to single ended converter plus filter, and finally headphone amplifier."

The only R2R DACs that I am aware of without amplifications stages are the MSB Select DAC 2, TheTotal DAC 12 with multiple resistor ladders and the Trinity DAC with Multiple PCM 1704 chips. These are much more expensive than the Dave.

I reckon that the headphone output doesn't add much additional cost to the Dave. It is useful for comparison purposes.


----------



## marcmccalmont

S Crowther said:


> Dictionaries are really beside the point as they comment on general usage past (sometimes) and present, not what is grammatically current. I am open to correction but I do not remember "launch" being used this way until the last few years. Another example is "divide" as in the " divide between rich and poor". the noun  is division, but what people usually mean is "gap". I think divide has been used like this for a long time.  I gave the example previously of "reveal" that is being used more and more as a noun.  The noun is "revelation". The gerund is "revealing". We used to say "unveiling". Watching NFL you hear the commentators say a player has "broken contain".
> 
> I shall say nothing more on the topic.
> Getting back to business: I have a Chord TT. I am thinking of upgrading (why I don't know as the TT sounds great) and can't decide whether to get the Dave or perhaps an R2R DAC. The thing I do not like about the Dave (and the TT) is that you are paying for amplification also and I use an external head amp.


What is the rest of your system? Amp and speakers? Headphones? Analog? All sources need output circuitry, with Dave or TT2 you would get super low distortion output circuitry capable of driving any cable most headphones and with a no compromise digital volume control total win win situation


----------



## x RELIC x

S Crowther said:


> The thing I do not like about the Dave (and the TT) is that you are paying for amplification also and I use an external head amp.



The confusion about the ‘amplification’ in Rob’s designs is that it is a single output stage as opposed to 4 output stages in conventional amplification designs. It’s analogous to the line-out of conventional DACs and very transparent. There is a lot of design that goes in to this that is tied directly to the DAC and not so much a seperate part of the system as a whole. It’s not like an amplification stage was added on to a DAC stage.




audio_1 said:


> The amplification in Dave is less than in chip based R2R DACs as *it doesn't require current to voltage conversion*. As posted by Rob "Yes my DAC architecture is very simple, and this accounts (in part) for it's transparency. In a conventional DAC you have, by necessity, a very complex analogue section - a differential architecture, with two current to voltage converters (I to V), differential to single ended converter plus filter, and finally headphone amplifier."
> 
> The only R2R DACs that I am aware of without amplifications stages are the MSB Select DAC 2, TheTotal DAC 12 with multiple resistor ladders and the Trinity DAC with Multiple PCM 1704 chips. These are much more expensive than the Dave.
> 
> I reckon that the headphone output doesn't add much additional cost to the Dave. It is useful for comparison purposes.



Rob‘s designs must have the Current to Voltage stage, but it also combines the other amplification stages in conventional designs in to one analogue output stage and the output level is controlled digitally. This is possible because of the performance of the Pulse Array DAC. The design as a whole is tightly integrated and Rob has posted quite a bit about the challenges he has had in order to achieve such a simple output stage.


----------



## Rob Watts

x RELIC x said:


> The confusion about the ‘amplification’ in Rob’s designs is that it is a single output stage as opposed to 4 output stages in conventional amplification designs. It’s analogous to the line-out of conventional DACs and very transparent. There is a lot of design that goes in to this that is tied directly to the DAC and not so much a seperate part of the system as a whole. It’s not like an amplification stage was added on to a DAC stage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was about to reply to @audio_1 then saw that your post answered it for me!

But just to add - why does one need an I to V converter anyway, as R2R are sometimes supplied without amplification. I too could eliminate the I to V conversion (so called voltage mode DACs) too with pulse array - and the reason I don't is distortion, as voltage mode DACs are a terrible idea as they create a lot of distortion, and some nasty HF distortion too. In experiments done decades ago with voltage mode, I was getting THD of the order of 0.03% - and that's around 10,000 times more distortion than Dave can do. And this distortion is highly audible. The reason it creates such a vast amount of distortion is the switching activity sees the OP voltage, and this in turn changes the switching delay times of the DAC switching elements, which creates distortion. And it is completely unavoidable, with all DAC types suffering from the problem.

Another problem with voltage mode is that the HF filtering is difficult to do, and so unacceptable levels of switching noise is fed to the pre or power amplifiers, which in turn creates more THD and more noise floor modulation. And of course you haven't actually replaced anything, as an amplifier to drive HP or speakers is still required. The beauty of my system is that the amplifier for drive is combined with the essential I to V that the DAC needs in one single stage, so we get the benefits of simplicity for better transparency plus ultra low distortion.


----------



## doraymon (Aug 28, 2018)

May I ask if anyone is using Dave with speakers and what is the amp/speaker combination chosen?

I am asking because I could now invest only say $5k for both and I'm wondering if by doing so I'm kind of wasting Dave's potential.

I hope I could explain myself despite not being a native English speaker...


----------



## x RELIC x

doraymon said:


> May I ask if anyone is using Dave with speakers and what is the amp/speaker combination chosen?
> 
> I am asking because I could now invest only say $5k for both and I'm wondering if by doing so I'm kind of wasting Dave's potential.
> 
> I hope I could explain myself despite not being a native English speaker...



Have you read about the efficient Super Alnico speakers and/or @romaz’s thoughts on them driven directly from the DAVE? Not sure if they will suit your sound preference, and I’ve never heard them, but they might be worth researching.

https://omegaloudspeakers.com/collections/monitor-speakers


----------



## doraymon

x RELIC x said:


> Have you read about the efficient Super Alnico speakers and/or @romaz’s thoughts on them driven directly from the DAVE? Not sure if they will suit your sound preference, and I’ve never heard them, but they might be worth researching.
> 
> https://omegaloudspeakers.com/collections/monitor-speakers


Thanks for this.
In fact yes I had read something in the past but was discouraged by the fact that in the country where I will be relocating to in a few days there is no Omega dealer.
Actually this would be a great solution as I need near field speakers so no need for tons of dB...
I just read that they can ship worldwide, I’m wondering how the warranty would work in that case.
I will drop them an email.

I will also do some research in @romaz posts to see if there is any downside in driving them straight out of the Dave


----------



## Triode User

doraymon said:


> Thanks for this.
> In fact yes I had read something in the past but was discouraged by the fact that in the country where I will be relocating to in a few days there is no Omega dealer.
> Actually this would be a great solution as I need near field speakers so no need for tons of dB...
> I just read that they can ship worldwide, I’m wondering how the warranty would work in that case.
> ...



These have a number of fans here on Head-Fi but I think the important thing would be for you to hear a pair connected to Dave before purchase. They have their undoubted strengths but they are not everyones cup of tea.


----------



## audio_1

Rob Watts said:


> I was about to reply to @audio_1 then saw that your post answered it for me!
> 
> But just to add - why does one need an I to V converter anyway, as R2R are sometimes supplied without amplification. I too could eliminate the I to V conversion (so called voltage mode DACs) too with pulse array - and the reason I don't is distortion, as voltage mode DACs are a terrible idea as they create a lot of distortion, and some nasty HF distortion too. In experiments done decades ago with voltage mode, I was getting THD of the order of 0.03% - and that's around 10,000 times more distortion than Dave can do. And this distortion is highly audible. The reason it creates such a vast amount of distortion is the switching activity sees the OP voltage, and this in turn changes the switching delay times of the DAC switching elements, which creates distortion. And it is completely unavoidable, with all DAC types suffering from the problem.
> 
> Another problem with voltage mode is that the HF filtering is difficult to do, and so unacceptable levels of switching noise is fed to the pre or power amplifiers, which in turn creates more THD and more noise floor modulation. And of course you haven't actually replaced anything, as an amplifier to drive HP or speakers is still required. The beauty of my system is that the amplifier for drive is combined with the essential I to V that the DAC needs in one single stage, so we get the benefits of simplicity for better transparency plus ultra low distortion.



I have a question for Rob about the single output stage in the Pulse array DAC. Is the choice of capacitors and resistors in the signal path very critical for sound quality? Many power amplifiers now use direct coupled designs with servos to control DC offset. Does the type of capacitor affect the linearity of the output stage? Where these capacitors chosen with listening tests?


----------



## doraymon

Triode User said:


> These have a number of fans here on Head-Fi but I think the important thing would be for you to hear a pair connected to Dave before purchase. They have their undoubted strengths but they are not everyones cup of tea.


Yes I agree but it's going to be impossible to try them before buying, I'm not in the US...


----------



## Rob Watts

audio_1 said:


> I have a question for Rob about the single output stage in the Pulse array DAC. Is the choice of capacitors and resistors in the signal path very critical for sound quality? Many power amplifiers now use direct coupled designs with servos to control DC offset. Does the type of capacitor affect the linearity of the output stage? Where these capacitors chosen with listening tests?



The coupling caps make a huge difference to SQ, with the best being teflon or PTFE, and this is down to dielectric absorption. But PTFE caps are horrendously expensive.

But the best coupling cap is none at all... Which is what I do, in that there is no coupling caps at all. But conventional analogue DC servos actually do have an integrating cap in the signal path, and this will create distortion and noise, and so change SQ. What I do is to use a digital DC servo, where the OP from the analogue DC servo, the DC integrator, is fed to an ADC, then the FPGA removes all of the distortion and noise by filtering it all out - so a DC trim is applied to the noise shaper, thus ensuring offsets are below 0.1mV but zero added distortion and noise. Indeed, switching the digital DC servo on and off resulted in no change in SQ at all. 

So in SQ terms it has no coupling capacitors at all. The only downside to the system is it takes 16 seconds for the OP to stabilise - hence why the rainbow mode on Qutest, Hugo 2, TT2 and the delay with Dave upon turn on.


----------



## S Crowther

S Crowther said:


> Dictionaries are really beside the point as they comment on general usage past (sometimes) and present, not what is grammatically current. I am open to correction but I do not remember "launch" being used this way until the last few years. Another example is "divide" as in the " divide between rich and poor". the noun  is division, but what people usually mean is "gap". I think divide has been used like this for a long time.  I gave the example previously of "reveal" that is being used more and more as a noun.  The noun is "revelation". The gerund is "revealing". We used to say "unveiling". Watching NFL you hear the commentators say a player has "broken contain".





marcmccalmont said:


> What is the rest of your system? Amp and speakers? Headphones? Analog? All sources need output circuitry, with Dave or TT2 you would get super low distortion output circuitry capable of driving any cable most headphones and with a no compromise digital volume control total win win situation


I only use the DAC for headphones. It is fed from MBP via USB using moon audio silver dragon cable. Then out SE to the head phone amp. Different amp depending on the headphones being used: usually V281 for planars, Head-Box RS for HD800s. See my profile.


----------



## rgs9200m (Aug 28, 2018)

If we are talking about proper English here, if I got a dime for every time someone uses "euphoric" instead of "euphonic" or "base" for "bass" ...

But I always just tell myself it's the thought that counts, so don't worry, be happy.


----------



## jonstatt

yakaway said:


> This might be a dumb question but for those dave owners that have a blu mk2 in black, are the finishes different?
> 
> My blu 2 is a matte black and the dave is a shiny or glossy black???
> 
> Just received the blu 2 recently and the dave a few weeks ago.



I have never seen a glossy black Dave! But the finishes on my Dave and Blu are not an exact match. The "sheen" is about the same but the Dave has a rougher grain to it, and the texture is not the same on the bevelled edges. You wouldn't notice this unless looking fairly closely though. If I was being pedantic I find it odd that the bevelled edge that goes all the way around the top of the casings of both Dave and Blu is not the same thickness between Blu and Dave. Could you show us a pic of your Dave and Blu?


----------



## Matez

Rob Watts said:


> The only downside to the system is it takes 16 seconds for the OP to stabilise - hence why the rainbow mode on Qutest, Hugo 2, TT2 and the delay with Dave upon turn on.



That's a small price to pay.


----------



## musickid

Anymore than 16 seconds and that would be me out of this audio hobby for good.........no two ways about it..


----------



## yellowblue

Just want to say that the Lush^2 USB-cable pairs very well with the DAVE. I never thought it would be a so huge step up from my Curious cable. It makes a large soundstage with my Utopias. Wider than with Curious USB and my HE-1000 - believe it or not.
There is a thread at CA about the cable (with JSSG 360 tweak and many possible configurations)
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/49648-lush2-share-your-configuration-experiences/


----------



## STR-1

yellowblue said:


> Just want to say that the Lush^2 USB-cable pairs very well with the DAVE. I never thought it would be a so huge step up from my Curious cable. It makes a large soundstage with my Utopias. Wider than with Curious USB and my HE-1000 - believe it or not.
> There is a thread at CA about the cable (with JSSG 360 tweak and many possible configurations)
> https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/49648-lush2-share-your-configuration-experiences/



Do you hear any other improvements in addition to soundstage?  I have both a Curious cable (20cm) and an original Lush cable (70cm) and they are very different - a little more air and detail with the brighter Curious, more warmth, heart and soul with the Lush, though sacrificing a smidgen of detail to my ears, which is why I prefer not to use the Lush in connecting my Zenith SE to the tX-USBultra (wanting to send as much detail as possible into the tX-U).  Are the difference in sound easy to hear with the different configurations?


----------



## yellowblue

Because of the 10.000 possible different configurations of the Lush^2 you always have to talk about which configuration you choose. I have chosen a little odd configuration which gives me an extreme holographic effect which I personally like with my Utopias (not so much with my other headphones). But I think as the Lush 1 did even the Lush^2 gererally adds warmth and "soul". It generates more bass than the Curious and slightly more details in the midths. I don´t think that I loose some details in the treble though. Hard to tell about the air because the Lush^2 creates this fantastic soundstage which differs totally from the Curious.
I tried to describe it here
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...periences/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-871657


----------



## Triode User

Interesting stuff with your cables guys. 

'Soundstage, Detail, Air and Brighter' are all descriptions that I have come to associate with RF noise . . . . .

With digital cables, darker, less bright, less immediate detail and less loud are instead what I now search out and then let my ears adjust to the new accurate sound and then the real detail comes through.

Just a thought. Plenty of IMO and YMMV of course because I accept that we all look for the sound we like and that is all that really matters


----------



## yellowblue

I expected that someone would ask about RF noise. But I don´t think that´s the matter with the Lush^2 because it has a special shielding (JSSG 360 - more about that on CA). For me it´s OK to stop the discussion here at this point because a more detailed discussion belongs to other forums - as CA.


----------



## Triode User

yellowblue said:


> I expected that someone would ask about RF noise. But I don´t think that´s the matter with the Lush^2 because it has a special shielding (JSSG 360 - more about that on CA). For me it´s OK to stop the discussion here at this point because a more detailed discussion belongs to other forums - as CA.



Sure, if you don't want to continue the debate that's fine. For me though, it is more about considering the RF generated by sources and in which cases shielding is not really relevant.


----------



## burbster

Hi, apologies if this has been asked previously, but with a 220V supply what is the potential maximum current pull of the Dave? When googling this it comes up with a power consumption of 20w, but surely it is a lot more than this????


----------



## Triode User

burbster said:


> Hi, apologies if this has been asked previously, but with a 220V supply what is the potential maximum current pull of the Dave? When googling this it comes up with a power consumption of 20w, but surely it is a lot more than this????



I’m not sure of the exact amount and it will depend if you are driving speakers direct from Dave but it will be round about the same as that figure or maybe slightly more, ie about the same as a lightbulb.


----------



## burbster

Triode User said:


> I’m not sure of the exact amount and it will depend if you are driving speakers direct from Dave but it will be round about the same as that figure or maybe slightly more, ie about the same as a lightbulb.



Thank you!


----------



## Deftone

jarnopp said:


> Mojo2, 2x taps, 10e pulse array, desktop mode, and digital out to drive the DX amps. $749.



Dont forget dual data input.


----------



## Deftone (Sep 1, 2018)

Ultrainferno said:


> Unboxed and *listening over dual BNC*. Most excellent.



Please dont go in the blu2 thread, you will come out with an order for 700 ferrite beads.


----------



## STR-1

This is a question I am hoping someone with experience of using a usb regenerator with their DAVE can answer.  While I accept that any usb cable feeding into DAVE (or Blu2) must carry 5v power for handshake purposes, is this also the case for a usb cable connecting a server to the usb regenerator (in my case, a tX-USBultra), with the powered usb cable then connecting the regenerator to DAVE/Blu2?  I am wondering, if it can be used, whether an unpowered cable between server and regenerator would likely give better sound quality, all other things being equal.  Unfortunately, I don’t have an unpowered cable to try and want to be sure it would work before buying one.  Thanks for any thoughts.


----------



## burbster

STR-1 said:


> This is a question I am hoping someone with experience of using a usb regenerator with their DAVE can answer.  While I accept that any usb cable feeding into DAVE (or Blu2) must carry 5v power for handshake purposes, is this also the case for a usb cable connecting a server to the usb regenerator (in my case, a tX-USBultra), with the powered usb cable then connecting the regenerator to DAVE/Blu2?  I am wondering, if it can be used, whether an unpowered cable between server and regenerator would likely give better sound quality, all other things being equal.  Unfortunately, I don’t have an unpowered cable to try and want to be sure it would work before buying one.  Thanks for any thoughts.



I can't actually answer your question sorry, I would assume that as your USB regenerator has its only supply it would not require the 5v computer supply but it may not be that simple. (apparently it depends on the USB chipset as to whether it supports a DATA only connection). I would however be interested to know what benefits you have seen with this device and what device you are using as your server/streamer. Thanks.


----------



## paul2qute (Sep 1, 2018)

Recently I've not been enjoying my music, it's got to be listening through the x box, just can't get into any music I play, role on death oops meant til I get my hugo TT 2.Some music I would be up body popping or doing the moon walk while pouring the wine into the glasses but no nothing.It's mad but 4 grand is nothing to me on the hugo TT 2 and I'll be getting the m scaler as well at some point, if I go shopping for anything else I'm well switched on and careful with my money but when it comes to hi-fi all commonsense goes out the window


----------



## TheAttorney

burbster said:


> Hi, apologies if this has been asked previously, but with a 220V supply what is the potential maximum current pull of the Dave? When googling this it comes up with a power consumption of 20w, but surely it is a lot more than this????



I measured this a while back. From memory, it was indeed under 20W when fully operational, dropping to below 10W in Standby. 

Standby mode does keep some of the circuitry active - seemingly more on the input side. For those who like to burn-in their posh new USB/ethernet cables, a USB-connected source "sees" a standby DAVE, and will happily play music to it, so you can burn-in your upstream cables/components 24/7 and still help save the planet (if only by a little bit).


----------



## HeeBroG

STR-1 said:


> This is a question I am hoping someone with experience of using a usb regenerator with their DAVE can answer.  While I accept that any usb cable feeding into DAVE (or Blu2) must carry 5v power for handshake purposes, is this also the case for a usb cable connecting a server to the usb regenerator (in my case, a tX-USBultra), with the powered usb cable then connecting the regenerator to DAVE/Blu2?  I am wondering, if it can be used, whether an unpowered cable between server and regenerator would likely give better sound quality, all other things being equal.  Unfortunately, I don’t have an unpowered cable to try and want to be sure it would work before buying one.  Thanks for any thoughts.



I just tried my unpowered Sablon USB cable between my Mac Mini and tX-USBultra to Blu2 and it works fine.
Not sure if this applies to all "servers" however.
I use Audirvana and Blu2 is recognised as an "audio device" connected in this fashion.
It didn't work between the tX and Blu2 however as the "powered" handshake is required.

It actually sounds very good in this configuration instead of Ethernet out to sMS-200 via SOtM modified switch. Seems less bright/etched which is a good thing. I'm going to leave it like this for a while actually.


----------



## STR-1

HeeBroG said:


> I just tried my unpowered Sablon USB cable between my Mac Mini and tX-USBultra to Blu2 and it works fine.
> Not sure if this applies to all "servers" however.
> I use Audirvana and Blu2 is recognised as an "audio device" connected in this fashion.
> It didn't work between the tX and Blu2 however as the "powered" handshake is required.
> ...


Thanks for that.  I have also been thinking about Sablon USB cables and am currently exchanging emails with Mark at Sablon about these.  I was thinking of trying just the powered cable but now think I will also give the unpowered cable a try.  I've gained the impression reading various write-ups that the Reserva Elite USB cable falls somewhere between the Curious and the Lush cables, with a tonal balance slightly nearer to the Lush but with the Curious cable's level of detail retrieval.  If that turns out to be the case, this cable has the potential to be my ideal cable.


----------



## HeeBroG

The new Lush2 is an intriguing cable for the tweaker with multiple options for shielding


----------



## xxx1313 (Sep 3, 2018)

STR-1 said:


> Thanks for that.  I have also been thinking about Sablon USB cables and am currently exchanging emails with Mark at Sablon about these.  I was thinking of trying just the powered cable but now think I will also give the unpowered cable a try.  I've gained the impression reading various write-ups that the Reserva Elite USB cable falls somewhere between the Curious and the Lush cables, with a tonal balance slightly nearer to the Lush but with the Curious cable's level of detail retrieval.  If that turns out to be the case, this cable has the potential to be my ideal cable.



The Sablon Panatela Reserva Elite IS a brilliant USB cable. You named some of its important characteristics already. In my setup, it is at least one class better than the other two cables that you mentioned (and they are good USB cables as well). I use two powered versions of the Reserva Elite, before and after tx-USBultra. It sounds both highly resolving and so natural, life like.


----------



## STR-1

xxx1313 said:


> The Sablon Panatela Reserva Elite IS a brilliant USB cable. You named some of its important characteristics already. In my setup, it is at least one class better than the other two cables that you mentioned (and they are good USB cables as well). I use two powered versions of the Reserva Elite, before and after tx-USBultra. It sounds both highly resolving and so natural, life like.


Thanks.  Do you find it easy to hear the difference between cables that feed into the tX-U?


----------



## xxx1313 (Sep 3, 2018)

STR-1 said:


> Thanks.  Do you find it easy to hear the difference between cables that feed into the tX-U?



Yes. You can try one cable first (this will show you the general quality of the Reserva Elite), but you will need to replace both cables, also the one feeding the tx-U. Bad news for your wallet, but good for your happiness afterwards. 

Mark has a great return policy. So you can try one cable in standard length first, and buy the second cable afterwards. If the first cable convinces you (I am quite sure it will), then you will probably need a second one of his cables.


----------



## xxx1313

Double post. sorry.


----------



## iDesign

While we are on the subject of SoTM, does anyone have experience with the DAVE and the SMS-200 Ultra Neo? I also understand @romaz has been using an custom Intel NUC with great results but I don’t have a full understanding of his setup and would love to learn more about it.


----------



## Imusicman

Would I be right in thinking all the posts referring to SOTM Ultra and Ultra USB and $1000 usb cables are about using the Dave within a speaker set up?

Would there be any benefit using these products on a more simpler set up is IMac to  Dave to Headphone?


----------



## Triode User

Not to pour too much cold water but I have never seen any post from RW saying he could hear any difference at all between USB cables into Dave. Obviously I am a convert to digital cables having an influence but that is in the context of RF being got rid of on the BNC cables to give a warmer, darker sound but what is meant to be happening on USB cables? What are the cables doing, filtering RF or what?

Just interested.


----------



## xxx1313 (Sep 3, 2018)

Triode User said:


> Not to pour too much cold water but I have never seen any post from RW saying he could hear any difference at all between USB cables into Dave. Obviously I am a convert to digital cables having an influence but that is in the context of RF being got rid of on the BNC cables to give a warmer, darker sound but what is meant to be happening on USB cables? What are the cables doing, filtering RF or what?
> 
> Just interested.



We also never saw a post of RW preferring an expensive streamer or media server over his notebook as source/transport, right? I respect his opinion very much and also yours. What do you think makes BNC/SPDIF/Coax so different from USB regarding RF? I use ferrites on the USB cables too, even though the SP1000 runs on battery and should not emit much EMI/RFI, but I am living in a noisy environment. I can hear every change in the digital part of the audio chain easily (yes, DAVE alone is so resolving, and it will be even more so with M Scaler added, which I already ordered). I agree that one can be happy with using Toslink as input, which is good without additional tweaking. But USB is even more enjoyable and "better" to me, with good cables and a reclocker, even though the SP1000 is not at all a bad source/transport.


----------



## Rob Watts

Yes I haven't ever heard a change using certified USB cables; that is cables that have been tested and comply with USB standards. I recall hearing one audiophile USB cable sounding brighter, and was consistent with more RF noise from the cable, so the cable had been "tuned" as an RF generator...

And servers and reclockers - on the occasions I have heard these, all sounded brighter with poorer depth - and is consistent with more RF noise, and more correlated noise injection. Adding extra boxes, will always increase overall noise levels, and my DACs certainly do not need any form of jitter treatment. A battery powered bit perfect source supplies the ultimate digital source, as so long as no mains power or grounds are attached, we have perfect ground isolation.


----------



## iDesign

Rob Watts said:


> And servers and reclockers - on the occasions I have heard these, all sounded brighter with poorer depth - and is consistent with more RF noise, and more correlated noise injection. Adding extra boxes, will always increase overall noise levels, and my DACs certainly do not need any form of jitter treatment. A battery powered bit perfect source supplies the ultimate digital source, as so long as no mains power or grounds are attached, we have perfect ground isolation.


You just saved me $1,400. Thank you, Rob.


----------



## Imusicman

xxx1313 said:


> We also never saw a post of RW preferring an expensive streamer or media server over his notebook as source/transport, right? I respect his opinion very much and also yours. What do you think makes BNC/SPDIF/Coax so different from USB regarding RF? I use ferrites on the USB cables too, even though the SP1000 runs on battery and should not emit much EMI/RFI, but I am living in a noisy environment. I can hear every change in the digital part of the audio chain easily (yes, DAVE alone is so resolving, and it will be even more so with M Scaler added, which I already ordered). I agree that one can be happy with using Toslink as input, which is good without additional tweaking. But USB is even more enjoyable and "better" to me, with good cables and a reclocker, even though the SP1000 is not at all a bad source/transport.



Can you please tell me what you are using to connect the SP100 to the Dave. I would like to try this. Thanks


----------



## STR-1 (Sep 4, 2018)

Deleted


----------



## astrostar59

HeeBroG said:


> I just tried my unpowered Sablon USB cable between my Mac Mini and tX-USBultra to Blu2 and it works fine.
> Not sure if this applies to all "servers" however.
> I use Audirvana and Blu2 is recognised as an "audio device" connected in this fashion.
> It didn't work between the tX and Blu2 however as the "powered" handshake is required.
> ...



Nice. But I would say try the current Roon build, it beats the pants off Audirvana+ 3 and I was a fanboy until I tried it. Smoother and or master tape like. Thank me later....


----------



## STR-1 (Sep 4, 2018)

iDesign said:


> While we are on the subject of SoTM, does anyone have experience with the DAVE and the SMS-200 Ultra Neo? I also understand @romaz has been using an custom Intel NUC with great results but I don’t have a full understanding of his setup and would love to learn more about it.


We are starting to hear about some early experiences with the SMS-200 Ultra Neo on this thread over on CA (last page) - https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...s-talk-about-sotm-sms-200-ultra/?tab=comments   But nothing yet with the DAVE.

This is the last post I have seen from romaz about his sytem - https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...udio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=860030


----------



## tunes (Sep 4, 2018)

Em2016 said:


> Fantastic! Another combination of cable and source that’s confirmed to work at 192kHz with Dave, without hacking at the cable connector.
> 
> But your Aries output signal integrity must also be very good.
> 
> ...



It amazes me that I spent so much on a TOTL DAC and can’t get a reasonable Toslink cable that works at 192/24. I just paid $80 for a Sysconcepts cable for which the company claims works at that resolution but only get pops and static.   The connection to the optical port on the DAVE seems feeble and tried pushing in as far as possible and no go.  Also tried a cheap KabelDirekt cable and same problem for 192/24, static and no signal to DAVE.  How can I be sure the problem is not with the DAVE’s optical input?  Tried both OPT 1 and 2 with same results.  I need a 6 foot run as I operate from a DAP as my music server.  USB works fine from an Apple lap top but the DAP does not have USB. Are there any other cables quaranteed to work with DAVE at 192/24?  Why isn’t the optical ports on the DAVE industry standards or have issues?


----------



## flyte3333

tunes said:


> It amazes me that I spent so much on a TOTL DAC and can’t get a reasonable Toslink cable that works at 192/24. I just paid $80 for a Sysconcepts cable for which the company claims works at that resolution but only get pops and static.   The connection to the optical port on the DAVE seems feeble and tried pushing in as far as possible and no go.  Also tried a cheap KabelDirekt cable and same problem for 192/24, static and no signal to DAVE.  How can I be sure the problem is not with the DAVE’s optical input?  Tried both OPT 1 and 2 with same results.  I need a 6 foot run as I operate from a DAP as my music server.  USB works fine from an Apple lap top but the DAP does not have USB. Are there any other cables quaranteed to work with DAVE at 192/24?  Why isn’t the optical ports on the DAVE industry standards or have issues?



It sounds like you're going through the identical thing I went through. The SysConcept never worked with mine at 192KHz, even though I had no issues with the same cable with Mojo and Hugo2...

If you go through my posts after this, you'll see that I found the source is more critical for Dave - I say more critical, because the same sources that I had working with Mojo and Hugo2 (and cables) wouldn't work at 192KHz with Dave. 

I confirmed that a Bluesound Node2 and Oppo 205 would work at 192KHz with the KabelDirekt cable.

If you're going to be trying different cables and sources with Dave, make sure your seller has a good returns policy, so you can try as many things risk free, as possible.


----------



## Crgreen

Em2016 said:


> It sounds like you're going through the identical thing I went through. The SysConcept never worked with mine at 192KHz, even though I had no issues with the same cable with Mojo and Hugo2...
> 
> If you go through my posts after this, you'll see that I found the source is more critical for Dave - I say more critical, because the same sources that I had working with Mojo and Hugo2 (and cables) wouldn't work at 192KHz with Dave.
> 
> ...



Does anyone know th technical name for the optical termination which fits with the Dave? The supplied optical cable fits fine, at both ends - no wobbling - but is restricted to 1 metre or so.


----------



## seaice (Sep 4, 2018)

Crgreen said:


> Does anyone know th technical name for the optical termination which fits with the Dave? The supplied optical cable fits fine, at both ends - no wobbling - but is restricted to 1 metre or so.



You are looking for a TOSLINK connector (JIS F05): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOSLINK

I use some inexpensive Bandridge Toslink cables (2 and 3 metres) and they are OK with Dave: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=bandridge+toslink&rh=i:aps,k:bandridge+toslink


----------



## Crgreen

seaice said:


> If I understand you right, you are looking for a TOSLINK connector (JIS F05): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOSLINK



Thanks. It looks like there are two or three different Toslink terminations, and Dave provides optical sockets with which most Toslink cables don’t have a snug fit. The termination wobbles slightly, though still works. Are you saying the Toslink termination on the supplied cable, which clicks into place and is a perfect fit, is definitely type JIS F05?


----------



## seaice

Crgreen said:


> Thanks. It looks like there are two or three different Toslink terminations, and Dave provides optical sockets with which most Toslink cables don’t have a snug fit. The termination wobbles slightly, though still works. Are you saying the Toslink termination on the supplied cable, which clicks into place and is a perfect fit, is definitely type JIS F05?



I have always thought that it is the same. I am not sure if my optical terminations are wobbling but my basic Bandridge cables are working fine, no problems.


----------



## Crgreen

seaice said:


> I have always thought that it is the same. I am not sure if my optical terminations are wobbling but my basic Bandridge cables are working fine, no problems.



I’ve no idea if they’re the same, but the Toslink inputs on the Dave are definitely not standard. Normally, a Toslink connection will snap into place but with the Dave they fit, and work, but are easily disconnected when fiddling round the back or moving other equipment, but not with the supplied optical cable. I’m sure Chord had a good reason for this, but I’ve never come across an explanation.

I suppose a different way of putting matters is: where can one get the same optical cable that Chord supplies, but in longer lengths?


----------



## seaice

Crgreen said:


> I suppose a different way of putting matters is: where can one get the same optical cable that Chord supplies, but in longer lengths?



Is it this one? : https://www.chord.co.uk/product/c-lite-digital-optical-audio-interconnect/
They state: 1m, 2m, 3m, 5m, 8m, and 10m Toslink


----------



## Triode User

seaice said:


> I have always thought that it is the same. I am not sure if my optical terminations are wobbling but my basic Bandridge cables are working fine, no problems.



I always thought that the basic plug part is the same on all these but that some manufacturers have oversize cosmetic outer pieces some of which are too large to fit in the recess on the Dave. If they are plastic I just take a knife to them or if they are metal I just unscrew the cap a few turns to allow the actual plug to properly and fully click into place.

Or are there different inserts with different plug designs? - if so I have not seen any, just the different cosmetic covers.


----------



## Triode User

seaice said:


> Is it this one? : https://www.chord.co.uk/product/c-lite-digital-optical-audio-interconnect/
> They state: 1m, 2m, 3m, 5m, 8m, and 10m Toslink



They look just like the oversize cosmetic covers which will need trimming with a knife in order to fit a Dave.


----------



## Crgreen

seaice said:


> Is it this one? : https://www.chord.co.uk/product/c-lite-digital-optical-audio-interconnect/
> They state: 1m, 2m, 3m, 5m, 8m, and 10m Toslink



That’s not the optical cable supplied with the Dave, and is made by Chord Cables, a quite seperate and distict company. 

I suspect that the supplied cable has a slightly different fitting, or longer centre pin, as it fits into the more usual, non-Dave sockets without any problem. No doubt, someone from Chord Electronics can assist.


----------



## seaice

Crgreen said:


> That’s not the optical cable supplied with the Dave, and is made by Chord Cables, a quite seperate and distict company.
> 
> I suspect that the supplied cable has a slightly different fitting, or longer centre pin, as it fits into the more usual, non-Dave sockets without any problem. No doubt, someone from Chord Electronics can assist.



Oh sorry, my bad. As I mentioned above, try some Bandridge cables. I am not sure which I bought (some basic types) but no problems with the termination.


----------



## Crgreen (Sep 4, 2018)

Triode User said:


> They look just like the oversize cosmetic covers which will need trimming with a knife in order to fit a Dave.



Personally, I’d prefer to track down the make of the supplied cable than take a knife to other ones.

The fact is, the ordinary “cosmetic” terminations seem to adhere to a common standard and fit perfectly into Toslink inputs, other than on the Dave. In the light of that, the more likely explanation is that Chord are doing doing something non-standard.


----------



## Triode User

Crgreen said:


> Personally, I’d prefer to track down the make of the supplied cable than take a knife to other ones.
> 
> The fact is, the ordinary “cosmetic” terminations seem to adhere to a common standard and fir perfectly into Toslink inputs, other than on the Dave. In the light of that, the more likely explanation is that Chord are doing doing something non-standard.



Many other items of equipment have thin panel casings and so the optical socket is flush with the face of the casing. In those cases it doesn't really matter how larger they make the outer part of the plug covering.

I have just measured the rectangular cut out / recess in the back of the Dave where the optical connection is located. The height is the limiting dimension (it is wider than it is high) and is about 11.6mm. I have also just measured one of my 'oversize' covers on an optical cable and it is 13mm dia.

If there is a standard it will probably apply to the actual toslink plug / socket and not the cosmetic covers. Manufacturers seem to like to make the outer covers somewhat larger than necessary possibly to imply improved performance just the same as power cables and connections are often ridiculously oversized.

I am not sure Chord can be accused of doing something non standard but they do seem to have a history of making their cut outs too small. Remember the Hugo 1 RCA recesses.


----------



## Crgreen

Triode User said:


> Many other items of equipment have thin panel casings and so the optical socket is flush with the face of the casing. In those cases it doesn't really matter how larger they make the outer part of the plug covering.
> 
> I have just measured the rectangular cut out / recess in the back of the Dave where the optical connection is located. The height is the limiting dimension (it is wider than it is high) and is about 11.6mm. I have also just measured one of my 'oversize' covers on an optical cable and it is 13mm dia.
> 
> ...



Making cut outs the wrong size to accept the usual Toslink termination without the aid of a knife sounds like non-standard to me. The fact that the supplied cable fits perfectly suggests that perhaps some slightly different standard of fitting is employed.

As I’ve said, I don’t know the explanation. There does appear to have been some prior discussion on this point, though I’m not sure the make of the supplied cable was ever identified:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-713#post-14165962

Rob provides some input, but makes no mention of the termination issue with the Dave, which apparently doesn’t apply to other Chord DACs.


----------



## musickid (Sep 4, 2018)

If chord's optical "port" is identical on H2 and Dave then the kabeldirekt optical cable which i run optical out of an imac into H2 fits 90% of the way with no signal loss. Funnily enough the same cable snapped into place firmly with the mojo. Could it be that portable chord dacs have a more standard optical fitting due to the fact that they were designed to be transported vs a desktop dac like Dave which is stationary and therefore has a slighter tighter fitting to save on space and that it is stationary which negates the need for a 100% perfect fit? A theory out of thin air?


----------



## Crgreen

musickid said:


> If chord's optical "port" is identical on H2 and Dave then the kabeldirekt optical cable which i run optical out of an imac into H2 fits 90% of the way with no signal loss. Funnily enough the same cable snapped into place firmly with the mojo. Could it be that portable chord dacs have a more standard optical fitting due to the fact that they were designed to be transported vs a desktop dac like Dave which is stationary and therefore has a slighter tighter fitting to save on space and that it is stationary which negates the need for a 100% perfect fit? A theory out of thin air?



That’s one theory, though it’s difficult to see how in this respect saving on space can have been an issue with a unit the size of the Dave and is more likely to have been an issue (if issue it was) with the  smaller, portable units.

Another theory is that Chord took on board the slight fitting incomptabality with the Dave and decided to adopt the more usual fitting on subssuquent DACs. We’ll probabably never know as Chord seems to have no interest in providing an explalanation. For me, it doesn’t really matter but I would like to have a nice snug fit for my second optical connection and therefore have emailed Chord asking for the make of the supplied optical cable. I’ll post the response if I get a reply.

I cannot say if the “fit” affects the ability of the cable to handle 192 data. According to Rob, optical is the best connection to the Dave, but he doesn’t rate the ability of current Toslink cables to handle > 96. Digital technology - don’t you just love it.


----------



## musickid

Could someone explain to me under what circumstances 2 optical inputs would be used on the mscaler? i will be using an mscaler with my hugo2 and can't figure that out.

listening to Traveller by Anoushka Shankar roon.


----------



## Crgreen

musickid said:


> Could someone explain to me under what circumstances 2 optical inputs would be used on the mscaler? i will be using an mscaler with my hugo2 and can't figure that out.
> 
> listening to Traveller by Anoushka Shankar roon.



Two digital sources, such as a CD transport/player and a streamer for Internet streaming sources and didgital radio, with, say, a laptop on USB. Of course, you might prefer a streamer on USB to provide full format compatibility.


----------



## musickid

Yes but how does the mscaler know which optical input to process if two are connected? Or do you just send one optical source at a time so with two optical inputs you don't have to keep on unplugging and reconnecting two different sources?


----------



## Rob Watts

You can select any input on the source switch or remote, or you can use the auto mode, and this will go to a locked SPDIF input, or a USB that is not digitally silent. USB has priority as input in auto mode.


----------



## Crgreen

musickid said:


> Yes but how does the mscaler know which optical input to process if two are connected? Or do you just send one optical source at a time so with two optical inputs you don't have to keep on unplugging and reconnecting two different sources?



I can’t say for sure, but presumably a remote or button on the front - two appear to be designated optical - or a system of priorities for active sources similar to that used on the Blu2. With so many inputs on the HMS, I’m sure there’s a straightforward way of moving between them.


----------



## musickid

Thanks Rob. So if you had two optical sources connected then obviously you would ensure only one of those optical sources is sending data to the mscaler at any one time. Basic stuff i know....


----------



## Crgreen

musickid said:


> Thanks Rob. So if you had two optical sources connected then obviously you would ensure only one of those optical sources is sending data to the mscaler at any one time. Basic stuff i know....



Any other arrangement would make no sense.


----------



## STR-1

HeeBroG said:


> I just tried my unpowered Sablon USB cable between my Mac Mini and tX-USBultra to Blu2 and it works fine.
> Not sure if this applies to all "servers" however.
> I use Audirvana and Blu2 is recognised as an "audio device" connected in this fashion.
> It didn't work between the tX and Blu2 however as the "powered" handshake is required.
> ...


Silly me.  Just realised I had the means to test this myself all the time.  While I do not have an unpowered cable I have just remembered that the USPCB I am currently using between the Innuos server and the tX-U has a very small switch to turn off the vbus.  Just turned vbus off and everything continues to work just fine, and I think it does sound better.


----------



## Crgreen

I see that the HMS also has an optical output which presumably can be fed into the Dave. Would there be any advantages in using this rather than dual BNC?


----------



## xxx1313

Imusicman said:


> Can you please tell me what you are using to connect the SP100 to the Dave. I would like to try this. Thanks



I use this adaptor:
https://www.audioquest.com/accessories/splitters-connectors-adaptors/adaptors/usb-a-to-c-adaptor


----------



## Imusicman

xxx1313 said:


> I use this adaptor:
> https://www.audioquest.com/accessories/splitters-connectors-adaptors/adaptors/usb-a-to-c-adaptor



I will order this 

Thank you


----------



## doraymon

tunes said:


> It amazes me that I spent so much on a TOTL DAC and can’t get a reasonable Toslink cable that works at 192/24. I just paid $80 for a Sysconcepts cable for which the company claims works at that resolution but only get pops and static.


I have three of the Sysconcept cables in different lengths and all gave me a stable connection with Dave at 24/192 PCM and DSD64.


----------



## flyte3333

doraymon said:


> I have three of the Sysconcept cables in different lengths and all gave me a stable connection with Dave at 24/192 PCM and DSD64.



What source though?


----------



## rgs9200m

So if I have an M-Scaler and a DAVE, can I have both the M-Scaler feed the DAVE and also a direct USB feed from my computer to DAVE (bypassing the Mscaler) and be able to choose between these 2 inputs to my DAVE on the fly by choosing the particular DAVE input I want?

Is there any sort of conflict here?
Would I need 2 different drivers on my computer and need to choose between them for each input?
Thanks.


----------



## SCBob

rgs9200m said:


> So if I have an M-Scaler and a DAVE, can I have both the M-Scaler feed the DAVE and also a direct USB feed from my computer to DAVE (bypassing the Mscaler) and be able to choose between these 2 inputs to my DAVE on the fly by choosing the particular DAVE input I want?
> 
> Is there any sort of conflict here?
> Would I need 2 different drivers on my computer and need to choose between them for each input?
> Thanks.


Just curious. Under what circumstance would you want to bypass the M scaler?


----------



## ray-dude

SCBob said:


> Just curious. Under what circumstance would you want to bypass the M scaler?



Direct to DAVE has lower latency,  but the main reason is to demonstrate how awesome mScaler is


----------



## darkless

ray-dude said:


> Direct to DAVE has lower latency,  but the main reason is to demonstrate how awesome mScaler is


I seem to recall that the M-scaler has a bypass feature for the upsampling that allows you to do exactly that.


----------



## Rob Watts (Sep 5, 2018)

I made it easy - the Hugo M scaler has a pass through mode (with filter gain equalised) so it's dead easy to hear it; the switch is labelled OP SR, and red is pass through, green is 176.4/192, (1/4 M taps) blue is 352.8/384 (1/2 M taps) and white is the full 705.6/768 1M taps.

Edit: only white enables the dual data mode, all the others are single data mode with one BNC active and the other disabled.


----------



## Triode User (Sep 5, 2018)

deleted


----------



## tunes (Sep 5, 2018)

I have now confirmed that using a DAP Questyle QPR1 as a digital source that neither KabelDirekt nor Sysconcepts plastic fiber cable works with DAVE for 192/24 but both cables work perfectly with HUGO2. So my conclusion is that the Toslink receptical on the DAVE is either less sensitive than on th HUGO2 or there is simply a mechanical issue getting the transmitted light deeper into DAVE’s receptacle.   Has anyone been able to modify the Toslink cable insertion plug to seat deeper into the DAVE with success?


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> I have now confirmed that using a DAP Questyle QPR1 as a digital source that neither KabelDirekt nor Sysconcepts plastic fiber cable works with DAVE for 192/24 but both cables work perfectly with HUGO2. So my conclusion is that the Toslink receptical on the DAVE is either less sensitive than on th HUGO2 or there is simply a mechanical issue getting the transmitted light deeper into DAVE’s receptacle.   Has anyone been able to modify the Toslink cable insertion plug to seat deeper into the DAVE with success?



I don't know if you can see on the attached photo but on the left connector I unscrewed the cap a bit, maybe 5mm, and then cut off the exposed threaded plastic which means the actual optical connector can be pushed home into the Dave socket until it clicks in place. The connector on the right is unaltered.


----------



## tunes

Did that mod fix the issue permanently?
What cable is it?  Glass or plastic fiber?
Thanks


----------



## Triode User

My issue was just not being able to get the plug fully into the Dave socket and so no connection was possible. The modified 2m length cable works perfectly with the Dave. It is just a cheap one and I do not know the construction. This is it . . . .

https://www.amazon.co.uk/XO-Optical...d=1536152005&sr=1-7&keywords=xo+optical+cable


----------



## darkless

I've had no issues with 192 KHz sample rate content using this very inexpensive cable from KabelDirekt from my motherboard optical output to either my Chord Mojo or Chord DAVE (I bought the 12.5 meter version):
https://kabeldirekt-store.de/index....op-serie-optisches-toslink-digital-kabel.html


----------



## iDesign (Sep 5, 2018)

The original Toslink cables supplied with the DAVE are readily available in different lengths from Farnell or Newark.

https://cpc.farnell.com/c/cable-leads-connectors/leads/audio-video-leads/optical-toslink-leads
https://www.newark.com/search?st=prosignal toslink
I agree with Rob Watts that sometimes audiophile cables induce more RF noise and some are poorly constructed since they are assembled by hobbyists and small companies that don’t have the resources/access to more advanced construction methods.


----------



## Crgreen

iDesign said:


> The original Toslink cables supplied with the DAVE are readily available in different lengths from Farnell or Newark.
> 
> https://cpc.farnell.com/c/cable-leads-connectors/leads/audio-video-leads/optical-toslink-leads
> https://www.newark.com/search?st=prosignal toslink
> I agree with Rob Watts that sometimes audiophile cables induce more RF noise and some are poorly constructed since they are assembled by hobbyists and small companies that don’t have the resources/access to more advanced construction methods.



And of the 110 items listed at Farnells, which is the one Chord supplies with the Dave?


----------



## Triode User

Crgreen said:


> And of the 110 items listed at Farnells, which is the one Chord supplies with the Dave?



I wondered if anyone else had noticed that.


----------



## iDesign (Sep 5, 2018)

Crgreen said:


> And of the 110 items listed at Farnells, which is the one Chord supplies with the Dave?


The cables are from Pro-Signal and you can select any length you need. Chord includes the PSG00881 with the DAVE. I suspect Chord sources their cables from Farnell because the _exact_ DAVE, Hugo, Hugo2, Hugo TT, Hugo TT2, and Mojo cables are all available in bulk there.
https://www.newark.com/mcm/psg00881/3-toslink-optical-cable/dp/64T7399?st=prosignal toslink


----------



## Crgreen

iDesign said:


> The cables are from Pro-Signal and you can select any length you need. Chord includes the PSG0081 with the DAVE. I suspect Chord sources their cables from Farnell because the _exact_ DAVE, Hugo, Hugo2, Hugo TT, Hugo TT2, and Mojo cables are all available in bulk there.
> https://www.newark.com/mcm/psg00881/3-toslink-optical-cable/dp/64T7399?st=prosignal toslink



Just to be clear, do you mean this one, with 2.2mm OD (presumably outer diameter) rather than 4mm?

https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-signal/psg03967/lead-toslink-plug-to-plug-2-2mm/dp/AV25273


----------



## iDesign

Crgreen said:


> Just to be clear, do you mean this one, with 2.2mm OD (presumably outer diameter) rather than 4mm?
> 
> https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-signal/psg03967/lead-toslink-plug-to-plug-2-2mm/dp/AV25273


The PSG00881 that I linked to in my previous post is the one supplied with most DAVE units. However, it’s possible that over the years they shipped DAVEs with slightly different cables.


----------



## Crgreen

iDesign said:


> The PSG00881 that I linked to in my previous post is the one supplied with most DAVE units. However, it’s possible that over the years they shipped DAVEs with slightly different cables.



Okay thanks. That cable has a 4mm outside diameter, which I think might be the one used by most Toslink cables. There is however, a 2.2mm diameter termination, which might be the input fitting used on the Dave, but not other Chord DACs. That would explain why 4mm terminations do not fit snugly into the Dave, and need to be trimmed back in order to do so. 

Very kindly, Chord are sending me a further Toslink cable for the Dave for my second optical connection, so I’ll do a quick compare when it arrives, and report back.


----------



## Jozurr

iDesign said:


> The original Toslink cables supplied with the DAVE are readily available in different lengths from Farnell or Newark.
> 
> https://cpc.farnell.com/c/cable-leads-connectors/leads/audio-video-leads/optical-toslink-leads
> https://www.newark.com/search?st=prosignal toslink
> I agree with Rob Watts that sometimes audiophile cables induce more RF noise and some are poorly constructed since they are assembled by hobbyists and small companies that don’t have the resources/access to more advanced construction methods.



Do you have links to all the other cables supplied with the DAVE?


----------



## iDesign (Sep 6, 2018)

Jozurr said:


> Do you have links to all the other cables supplied with the DAVE?


Hi @Jozurr, I will have to look up all the listings again and cross reference them with the cables that shipped with my DAVE. I ended up buying _another _brand new DAVE so its easy enough to do since its probably the newest DAVE Blue Bird Shipped to date and everything is still in the box. I'll send it to you via Private Message.


----------



## tunes (Sep 6, 2018)

Crgreen said:


> Okay thanks. That cable has a 4mm outside diameter, which I think might be the one used by most Toslink cables. There is however, a 2.2mm diameter termination, which might be the input fitting used on the Dave, but not other Chord DACs. That would explain why 4mm terminations do not fit snugly into the Dave, and need to be trimmed back in order to do so.
> 
> Very kindly, Chord are sending me a further Toslink cable for the Dave for my second optical connection, so I’ll do a quick compare when it arrives, and report back.


I am hoping this issue will be resolved with my HUGO M scaler on order since the BNC inputs are used on the DAVE and the optical inputs used on the M scaler from my source.  If the same female optical jacks are used as the HUGO2 for the M scaler, then my search for a proper fitting optical TOSLINK cable is over.  On the other hand I am not sure with the M scaler if there will be any perceived difference in SQ between feeding it 16/44.1 versus 24/192 resolution FLAC data files and can forget about buying more expensive Hi Res digital downloads. Now the issue will be what dual BNC cables will be best for the M scaler without breaking the bank.


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> I am hoping this issue will be resolved with my HUGO M scaler on order since the BNC inputs are used on the DAVE and the optical inputs used on the M scaler from my source.  If the same female optical jacks are used as the HUGO2 for the M scaler, then my search for a proper fitting optical TOSLINK cable is over.  On the other hand I am not sure with the M scaler if there will be any perceived difference in SQ between feeding it 16/44.1 versus 24/192 resolution FLAC data files and can forget about buying more expensive Hi Res digital downloads. Now the issue will be what dual BNC cables will be best for the M scaler without breaking the bank.



On the basis that the MScaler and Blu2 are the same in the way they handle files I do find with Blu2 that is is worthwhile purchasing hires files as long as they are not just upsampled versions of the 44.1 files.

I am waiting for my Hugo MScaler before deciding if cables make any difference. I will post any conclusions.


----------



## Crgreen

Triode User said:


> On the basis that the MScaler and Blu2 are the same in the way they handle files I do find with Blu2 that is is worthwhile purchasing hires files as long as they are not just upsampled versions of the 44.1 files.
> 
> I am waiting for my Hugo MScaler before deciding if cables make any difference. I will post any conclusions.



Other than through reports, it’s impossible to know beforehand if a file has just been upsampled from Red Book. Nowadays however, pretty much all recordings are made in hi-res, so although there might be downsampling from 192 to 96, it’s unlikely that they’ll be upsampled. Some recordings are 44.1/24, but that counts as hi-res. 

I suspect the issue over phony hi-res files has now largely died out, and was restricted to older recordings where there was only a Red Book master, or they didn’t bother remastering from an analogue tape, an expensive business. Anecdotally, I’ve not read about any instances recently, though I don’t keep an eye open for such things.


----------



## doraymon

Em2016 said:


> What source though?


Sorry for the late reply.
I use the optical out of a MacBook Pro late 2013


----------



## iDesign (Mar 6, 2019)

Jozurr said:


> Do you have links to all the other cables supplied with the DAVE?


You will need to search these part numbers using Google to find a reseller. These are the correct cables supplied with the DAVE as of 8/2018:

*Toslink:* PSG00881
*Power: *PLUG:EL-701A
*USB:* Kenable USB 2.0 High Speed 

Hope this helps.


----------



## tunes (Sep 8, 2018)

Triode User said:


> I don't know if you can see on the attached photo but on the left connector I unscrewed the cap a bit, maybe 5mm, and then cut off the exposed threaded plastic which means the actual optical connector can be pushed home into the Dave socket until it clicks in place. The connector on the right is unaltered.


I am now happy to report and retract all of my prior distain for either CHORD or Sysconcepts that the problem has been remidied.  It appears that I neglected to push the male connector all the way in to the DAVE’S TOSLINK receptical.  I thought it was seated when I tried x 2 with different cables but now it works fine and the DAVE display goes red to blue and indicates 192 playback.  No pops or clicks just pure music.  Thanks everyone for Listening to my rant and making suggestions. The simplest solution was just to push a bit harder.

Thanks


----------



## AndrewOld (Sep 8, 2018)

OK fellow DAVE owners, how would you like to offer me some advice ... I’d like a pair of headphones, what should I put on my shortlist? I’ve currently got some HD650s but hardly ever listen to them. My taste in music is mostly classical, some jazz, and it is imperative that I get a natural, unhyped, uncoloured, rich solid sound on orchestral, choral and chamber music. The two models that I currently am interested in are the Focal Clears and Mr Speakers Aeon Flow Open. Care to share any insights on either of these, and or suggest alternatives? Remember it’s classical music I like, and I go to live concerts at least once a week so I know what the real thing sounds like. I am definitely not interested in boom and tizz space and air hyped up hi-fi.


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> I am now happy to report and retract all of my prior distain for either CHORD or Sysconcepts that the problem has been remidied.  It appears that I neglected to push the male connector all the way in to the DAVE’S TOSLINK receptical.  I thought it was seated when I tried x 2 with different cables but now it works fine and the DAVE display goes red to blue and indicates 192 playback.  No pops or clicks just pure music.  Thanks everyone for Listening to my rant and making suggestions. The simplest solution was just to push a bit harder.
> 
> Thanks



Brilliant. I'm glad you are sorted. 

That is why I said "pushed home into the Dave socket until it clicks into place". 

Well done for owning up!!


----------



## iDesign (Sep 8, 2018)

AndrewOld said:


> OK fellow DAVE owners, how would you like to offer me some advice ... I’d like a pair of headphones, what should I put on my shortlist? I’ve currently got some HD650s but hardly ever listen to them. My taste in music is mostly classical, some jazz, and it is imperative that I get a natural, unhyped, uncoloured, rich solid sound on orchestral, choral and chamber music. The two models that I currently am interested in are the Focal Clears and Mr Speakers Aeon Flow Open. Care to share any insights on either of these, and or suggest alternatives? Remember it’s classical music I like, and I go to live concerts at least once a week so I know what the real thing sounds like. I am definitely not interested in boom and tizz space and air hyped up hi-fi.


The irony is that countless classical recording engineers I know like Stephan Flock and producers like Sid McLauchlan use the Sennheiser HD 580, HD 600 and HD 650. I know Hilary Hahn even has the HD 650 for her home use. I still feel the HD 600/650 are the single most important headphones to own for any classical recording professional or listener. Over the years I have owned virtually every conceivable alternative to HD 650 and only one remains. The HD 650 is wonderful with the DAVE.


----------



## ecwl

AndrewOld said:


> OK fellow DAVE owners, how would you like to offer me some advice ... I’d like a pair of headphones, what should I put on my shortlist? I’ve currently got some HD650s but hardly ever listen to them. My taste in music is mostly classical, some jazz, and it is imperative that I get a natural, unhyped, uncoloured, rich solid sound on orchestral, choral and chamber music. The two models that I currently am interested in are the Focal Clears and Mr Speakers Aeon Flow Open.


I own the HD650, Aeon Flow Closed and Focal Utopia. My local dealer recently brought in the Focal Clear and I’ve also listened to the Aeon Flow Open. 90% of what I listen to is classical music. Hmmm. This is a complete no brainer. Focal Clear hands down if you want to splurge. If not, Aeon Flow Open will still be a significant upgrade.


----------



## GryphonGuy (Sep 8, 2018)

AndrewOld said:


> OK fellow DAVE owners, how would you like to offer me some advice ... I’d like a pair of headphones, what should I put on my shortlist? I’ve currently got some HD650s but hardly ever listen to them. My taste in music is mostly classical, some jazz, and it is imperative that I get a natural, unhyped, uncoloured, rich solid sound on orchestral, choral and chamber music. The two models that I currently am interested in are the Focal Clears and Mr Speakers Aeon Flow Open. Care to share any insights on either of these, and or suggest alternatives? Remember it’s classical music I like, and I go to live concerts at least once a week so I know what the real thing sounds like. I am definitely not interested in boom and tizz space and air hyped up hi-fi.



I've never regretted waiting a good 6 months or more until a canjam meeting to try out the Focal Utopia headphones with DAVE before purchasing. I also owned HD650 but sadly they sit back in their box and Focal Utopia is simply bliss on my DAVE. So transparent, you will hear every change you make to your source chain but when your source chain is right, the subtlety of a triangle and the forceful tympany struck together can be heard. Clarity, accurate timbre and involvement are words that spring to mind when listening to the Utopia plugged into DAVE.

Regards
GG


----------



## SCBob

GryphonGuy said:


> I've never regretted waiting a good 6 months or more until a canjam meeting to try out the Focal Utopia headphones with DAVE before purchasing. I also owned HD650 but sadly they sit back in their box and Focal Utopia is simply bliss on my DAVE. So transparent, you will hear every change you make to your source chain but when your source chain is right, the subtlety of a triangle and the forceful tympany struck together can be heard. Clarity, accurate timbre and involvement are words that spring to mind when listening to the Utopia plugged into DAVE.
> 
> Regards
> GG


I agree with GryphonGuy's impressions about Focal Utopia and DAVE. Almost all of my listening is classical and jazz and this combination has been incredibly accurate, musical and revealing. My prior top headphone was an HD800, which I still own, and the Utopia is so much better, at least for me. With used Utopias now available at significant savings over new I would put these at the top of my list.


----------



## smodtactical

Has anyone with a DAVE compared it to the Denafrips terminator? This guy below who has heard many dacs ranked it above the DAVE.



> The Result :
> 
> 1st : Select DAC II Full Option - 100%
> 
> ...



https://www.whatsbestforum.com/show...-comparison-test-result-My-Subjective-Opinion


----------



## timeslip

ecwl said:


> I own the HD650, Aeon Flow Closed and Focal Utopia. My local dealer recently brought in the Focal Clear and I’ve also listened to the Aeon Flow Open. 90% of what I listen to is classical music. Hmmm. This is a complete no brainer. Focal Clear hands down if you want to splurge. If not, Aeon Flow Open will still be a significant upgrade.



Why the Focal Clear over the Utopia?


----------



## hieukm

smodtactical said:


> Has anyone with a DAVE compared it to the Denafrips terminator? This guy below who has heard many dacs ranked it above the DAVE.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.whatsbestforum.com/show...-comparison-test-result-My-Subjective-Opinion


This cant be true. This guy cant be hearing correctly. Chord is da best. This is madness!!!


----------



## smodtactical

hieukm said:


> This cant be true. This guy cant be hearing correctly. Chord is da best. This is madness!!!



Considering the terminator is about 1/3 the price or less, its impressive it turns out to be true.


----------



## hieukm

smodtactical said:


> Considering the terminator is about 1/3 the price or less, its impressive it turns out to be true.


You must be kidding. My Chord Dave is immune to Source, power cable and USB cable. Its eliteness overshadow digital source relevance (according to a elite cable maker)

Whats this non-sense that the top DAC need a separate PSU?


----------



## rayl

hieukm said:


> You must be kidding. My Chord Dave is immune to Source, power cable and USB cable. Its eliteness overshadow digital source relevance (according to a elite cable maker)
> 
> Whats this non-sense that the top DAC need a separate PSU?



I’ve been looking for an honest msb select 2 vs mscaler/dave comparison for ages. I don’t know that I would trust this impressions post... ~100k Usd vs ~18k usd. I’ve become an R2R skeptic but never heard the msb. Not even their 20k usd model which is more price aligned.


----------



## ecwl

timeslip said:


> Why the Focal Clear over the Utopia?


I personally prefer Utopia over Clear. I’ve read reviews criticizing that Utopia has a slight 6kHz peak and that Clear is more natural. However, Utopia has better transients, dynamics, clarity and transparency.
But since the question was Clear vs Aeon Flow Open vs HD650, I answered Clear >Aeon>HD650. Moreover, if the person hasn’t listened to the HD650 much, I think Utopia would be quite a splurge for rarely used headphones.
I also don’t use my headphones that often. Clear didn’t exist when I got Utopia. If I don’t own the Utopia now, I’m not sure if I wouldn’t just get the Clear instead and save myself some money, even knowing I prefer Utopia.


----------



## hieukm

rayl said:


> I’ve been looking for an honest msb select 2 vs mscaler/dave comparison for ages. I don’t know that I would trust this impressions post... ~100k Usd vs ~18k usd. I’ve become an R2R skeptic but never heard the msb. Not even their 20k usd model which is more price aligned.


Be careful of what you are in doubting. Chord comrades cant tolerate a member who is in doubt.


----------



## xxx1313 (Sep 9, 2018)

SCBob said:


> I agree with GryphonGuy's impressions about Focal Utopia and DAVE. Almost all of my listening is classical and jazz and this combination has been incredibly accurate, musical and revealing. My prior top headphone was an HD800, which I still own, and the Utopia is so much better, at least for me. With used Utopias now available at significant savings over new I would put these at the top of my list.



I agree, there is a special synergy between DAVE and the best Focal headphones, especially Utopia. HD800(S) has absolutely no chance in this setup. Clear is no slouch either, the best headphone at its price range, imo. While I still prefer Utopia by some margin (faster, even better resolution), Clear is a great headphone too, without any material weaknesses, and it offers a slighly larger soundstage than Utopia. So you might even prefer Clear (over Utopia) for listening to classical music (maybe also for Jazz, but probably not for other music genres, imo). You cannot go much wrong with Clear, imo.


----------



## Thenewguy007

smodtactical said:


> Considering the terminator is about 1/3 the price or less, its impressive it turns out to be true.



I doubt this would be true.
A few of the impressions of the Terminator said bass was emphasized & it had a slightly dark signature.
I also got the impressions that the soundstage was very average as well.

Just from that, I don't think it would touch the Dave.


----------



## theveterans

smodtactical said:


> Considering the terminator is about 1/3 the price or less, its impressive it turns out to be true.



If you read that thread, anything delta sigma and anything non discrete r2r would be considered inferior to their exotic DACs. I wouldn’t really consider that as an objective matter


----------



## smodtactical

theveterans said:


> If you read that thread, anything delta sigma and anything non discrete r2r would be considered inferior to their exotic DACs. I wouldn’t really consider that as an objective matter



Ok well just curious if anyone hear has heard both and if they can comment.


----------



## smodtactical

Thenewguy007 said:


> I doubt this would be true.
> A few of the impressions of the Terminator said bass was emphasized & it had a slightly dark signature.
> I also got the impressions that the soundstage was very average as well.
> 
> Just from that, I don't think it would touch the Dave.


Can you link to where people said it had average soundstage ?


----------



## timeslip

ecwl said:


> I personally prefer Utopia over Clear. I’ve read reviews criticizing that Utopia has a slight 6kHz peak and that Clear is more natural. However, Utopia has better transients, dynamics, clarity and transparency.
> But since the question was Clear vs Aeon Flow Open vs HD650, I answered Clear >Aeon>HD650. Moreover, if the person hasn’t listened to the HD650 much, I think Utopia would be quite a splurge for rarely used headphones.
> I also don’t use my headphones that often. Clear didn’t exist when I got Utopia. If I don’t own the Utopia now, I’m not sure if I wouldn’t just get the Clear instead and save myself some money, even knowing I prefer Utopia.




Aaaah ok, totally makes sense. I just misunderstood and probably read your response out of context. I’m not one that loves headphones (sweaty ears, feeling of the band on my head). But the utopia has been the first headphone that I absolutely love and use it exclusively at home. It’s what convinced me to go splurge on the Dave too.


----------



## Thenewguy007

smodtactical said:


> Can you link to where people said it had average soundstage ?



I remember a few impressions saying the soundstage equals the Yggdrasil, which imo was very average.


----------



## smodtactical

Thenewguy007 said:


> I remember a few impressions saying the soundstage equals the Yggdrasil, which imo was very average.



Ok fair.


----------



## smodtactical

Anyone compare DAVE to R2R 7HE ?


----------



## tunes

hieukm said:


> This cant be true. This guy cant be hearing correctly. Chord is da best. This is madness!!!


I think number one on that list costs a mere $89,000.


----------



## Thenewguy007

tunes said:


> I think number one on that list costs a mere $89,000.



I think he has the dual power supply version, which is $120,000.

Funny how costs run up so much, when the actual analog board doesn't seem any larger or more complex than the Dave.
The added power supplies seem of high quality, possibly worth a few thousand, but I don't see anything close to $100k worth of stuff.


----------



## GryphonGuy

Thenewguy007 said:


> I think he has the dual power supply version, which is $120,000.
> 
> Funny how costs run up so much, when the actual analog board doesn't seem any larger or more complex than the Dave.
> The added power supplies seem of high quality, possibly worth a few thousand, but I don't see anything close to $100k worth of stuff.



Price is about market tolerance and perceived value. Cost of production plays no part except that if the costs are not covered by the price then the company will probably disappear unless it is a money laundering operation.

GG


----------



## Thenewguy007

Yeah, but you can rationale the cost increase of the mid-tier stuff that is under $1,000 to the stuff hovering around $5k. Then the next leap, stuff over $10k & then the 20k stuff, but to leap frog that to $100K is stretching it.

Any company can upgrade their DACs with dual power supply units, add isolated enclosures for all inputs & still not have the gull to charge $120,000 USD.


----------



## tunes

Can these files be imported to a DAP as FLAC files to listen through a DAVE?  


https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2015/06/02/411473508/how-well-can-you-hear-audio-quality

*How Well Can You Hear Audio Quality?*
Tyler FisherJune 2, 20152:10 PM ET


----------



## Crgreen

tunes said:


> Can these files be imported to a DAP as FLAC files to listen through a DAVE?
> 
> 
> https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2015/06/02/411473508/how-well-can-you-hear-audio-quality
> ...



If your audio playback software can play the files, I’d have thought that you can do so through your connection to the Dave.

In my view, the differences between MP3 and FLAC on Tidal is pretty obvious. Whether it’s worth the extra costs is a matter for you. Bear in mind however, that hi-res files on Tidal are, I think, MQA files, so that the second layer of unfolding must be done in software and cannot be achieved with the Dave. To my ear, through the Dave, the Red Book versions of such files sound better on Tidal than the hi-res ones, but the position might be different with an MQA-enabled DAC.


----------



## jacc

Crgreen said:


> If your audio playback software can play the files, I’d have thought that you can do so through your connection to the Dave.
> 
> In my view, the differences between MP3 and FLAC on Tidal is pretty obvious. Whether it’s worth the extra costs is a matter for you. Bear in mind however, that hi-res files on Tidal are, I think, MQA files, so that the second layer of unfolding must be done in software and cannot be achieved with the Dave. To my ear, through the Dave, the Red Book versions of such files sound better on Tidal than the hi-res ones, but the position might be different with an MQA-enabled DAC.



+1 

I also find TIDAL MQA thru BLUDAVE has less detail and far too smooth compared with redbook


----------



## Crgreen

jacc said:


> +1
> 
> I also find TIDAL MQA thru BLUDAVE has less detail and far too smooth compared with redbook



In fact, the Auralic software settings that provide for software decoding where a DAC is not MQA-enabled specifically warns this might be the case. It produces a rather feathery sound with less body than red book. I suspect that a much better result would be achieved with an MQA DAC, though in other respects it might be inferior to the Dave.


----------



## burbster

Hi, just picked up my new Dave, it arrived quite a few weeks earlier than the quoted 6 weeks!! Literally just finished plugging it in, it sounds pretty good out of the box but just wondering what people felt was an appropriate burn in time? Also with regards to the phase setting, is it purely trial an error of what sounds best or is there a way to tell what it should be set at for a particular system?  Thanks


----------



## JaZZ

Mine took about 12 hours to break in – so I thought. However, according to Rob it was all just in my head. 

The phase switch does exactly nothing to my ears, but for those who are sensitive to absolute phase it will indeed be a matter of trial and error in view of the absolute phase on specific recordings.


----------



## Triode User

burbster said:


> Hi, just picked up my new Dave, it arrived quite a few weeks earlier than the quoted 6 weeks!! Literally just finished plugging it in, it sounds pretty good out of the box but just wondering what people felt was an appropriate burn in time? Also with regards to the phase setting, is it purely trial an error of what sounds best or is there a way to tell what it should be set at for a particular system?  Thanks



Burn in for Dave - nil. Burn in for my ears - a few days to get used to it. 
I have always used positive phase setting but have a play. 

Have fun.


----------



## jlbrach

burbster said:


> Hi, just picked up my new Dave, it arrived quite a few weeks earlier than the quoted 6 weeks!! Literally just finished plugging it in, it sounds pretty good out of the box but just wondering what people felt was an appropriate burn in time? Also with regards to the phase setting, is it purely trial an error of what sounds best or is there a way to tell what it should be set at for a particular system?  Thanks



i did not notice any difference in terms of burn in....sounded great right out of the box to me


----------



## OK-Guy (Sep 13, 2018)

ok, so International Chord customers who live around the globe 'do not' miss out on the Hugo-2 'cable offer' that's open to Chord Customers in UK...

Canadian 'Chord Dealer' *HiFi-Pro* is offering a special deal to all 'International Customers', they have a special deal on the *'Nordost Silver-Shadow'* Bnc/Rca-Digital Coaxial Cable (1m long).

normal cost of the Nordost Silver-Shadow cable is $599 (£460), save a whopping $300 (£230) and pick one up for a $199 (£153), this is a 'limited time' offer open to everyone globally.

Link to offer: https://www.hifipro.ca/product/nordost-silver-shadow-1m-bnc-rca-digital-coaxial-cable-international


----------



## rgs9200m (Sep 13, 2018)

Down the line eventually there *has* to be a DAVE with built in Mscaling.

 I can't see Chord continuing for a very long time with their top DAC option being a rather awkward 2-box setup (DAVE+Mscaler) where there is not even a stand to accommodate 2 different form/shape components.

It would not make sense from a marketing perspective to have something a bit ungainly that takes up more desktop real estate.

It kind on negates the prime directive of the DAVE being a one-box solution for the best of the best, at least for headphones or self-powered (or very efficient) speakers.

And since it didn't take long for Chord to introduce an independent M-scaler as an alternative to the Blu2, and the fact that Chord takes design super-seriously as a hallmark of their approach, I'm sure Chord sees this. 
(I think you can read the tea leaves here from the quick M-scaler intro in time for Christmas.)
(And good for them! They are a breakthrough company and deserve it. I hope they sell lots of things and are super-successful. High-end audio needs all the help it can get.)

Just my crystal ball thinking here...

(PS, I think Chord should offer a stand for a DAVE + Mscaler. )

(_Please see my quick follow-up 3 posts down on the next page_.)


----------



## JaZZ

I'm sure Rob and John are thinking about it, but we won't see a DAVE₂ with 1 million taps before the end of 2020 or the like.


----------



## Triode User

rgs9200m said:


> Down the line eventually there *has* to be a DAVE with built in Mscaling.
> 
> I can't see Chord continuing for a very long time with their top DAC option being a rather awkward 2-box setup (DAVE+Mscaler) where there is not even a stand to accommodate 2 different form/shape components.
> 
> ...



I sort of think you are missing the point here. The new Hugo MScaler is designed to match the TT2 and TToby.  Sure, it can be used with Dave just as it can be used with H2 and Qutest but with each of those do not expect it to stack properly or match the casings because essentially HMS is from TT family. 

We already have an MScaler which matches the Dave ie Blu2 which has the added advantage of a reference grade CD player. I can’t see the point of Chord rushing to do a stand alone MScaler to match the Dave case. Where would it fit in the pricing and who would buy if it was more than HMS? I suspect the next big change in the Choral range will be along the lines of a Dave2 / MScaler2 but maybe not for quite a while.


----------



## rgs9200m (Sep 13, 2018)

I didn't mean to criticize Chord at all, or even their approach.
In fact, I fully appreciate the fact that they make the latest technology available in standalone form for their buyers and not force them to move on to a new version with the hassle of selling /trading  /upgrading.
I absolutely congratulate Chord for offering flexibility and early improvements.
This is actually pretty rare in high end audio.

And I fully agree with your very valid point Triode User, so thanks. I was just thinking the DAVE, as a flagship product (I believe), will have something as intrinsically important as maximum resolution sooner than later.

Ironically, if the M-Scaler is highly successful (as seems probable from the keen early demand for it), they will almost be forced to bring out a DAVE with M-Scaling from customers (and dealers) demanding it. This may happen even if it was not in their original plans or timelines.

They won't have time to wait for the design of a DAVE with all sorts of other capabilities that are less urgent than M-Scaling.

I can easily see this happening. They have to keep up with the other top DAC providers.

(And what got me thinking about this is that I personally would sure like M-Scaling for my (beloved) DAVE, but I'm staring at my desktop trying to figure out where to fit yet another box.)


----------



## Triode User

rgs9200m said:


> Ironically, if the M-Scaler is highly successful (as seems probable from the keen early demand for it), they will almost be forced to bring out a DAVE with M-Scaling from customers (and dealers) demanding it. This may happen even if it was not in their original plans or timelines.



I see where you are coming from but unless RW finds a work around he has (I think) previously stated that until the next generation of MScaler chips the current ones are too noisy to put in the same case as Dave.


----------



## JaZZ

Triode User said:


> I see where you are coming from but unless RW finds a work around he has (I think) previously stated that until the next generation of MScaler chips the current ones are too noisy to put in the same case as Dave.


Most likely it is feasible even with today's technology. I tried to display it with an earlier post, which shows a Hugo₂ placed right above an M-Scaler, with nothing in between. Sadly nobody seems to have got my message: Both devices could just as well be unified into one (outer) case and called a «one-box solution». Just replace the Hugo₂ by a DAVE, additionally arrange the electronics in a way to take less vertical space. Or place them side by side inside one case.


----------



## rgs9200m

Thank you Triode User for your good perspective. I guess I did assume an M-scaling DAVE would require a bigger case (which is fine, since DAVE is very compact currently).
Thanks to JaZZ too.


----------



## GryphonGuy

Triode User said:


> I sort of think you are missing the point here. The new Hugo MScaler is designed to match the TT2 and TToby.  Sure, it can be used with Dave just as it can be used with H2 and Qutest but with each of those do not expect it to stack properly or match the casings because essentially HMS is from TT family.
> 
> We already have an MScaler which matches the Dave ie Blu2 which has the added advantage of a reference grade CD player. I can’t see the point of Chord rushing to do a stand alone MScaler to match the Dave case. Where would it fit in the pricing and who would buy if it was more than HMS? I suspect the next big change in the Choral range will be along the lines of a Dave2 / MScaler2 but maybe not for quite a while.



The current Blu2/DAVE combo is the best that Rob and Chord can bring to market at the moment, and yes, you can also say Mscaler/DAVE. They have been concentrating on better source-side signals to their DACs and filling perceived holes in the market with differing price-point offerings.

I don't think you will be seeing a better DAC/pre-amp until the output side of the DACs are brought to market (the so-called DX-amps and the new Bob Cordell consultancy on amplification design) and let's understand that Rob's Davina project (designed to be the best specified ADC on the market in terms of little to no noise floor modulation, low-level signal sampling without audible distortion etc) may show that the current DAC equipment is more than adequate or it may show that a lot more work needs to be done for ideal reproduction of music.

From publicly available repositories, the Davina project is meant to be testing for the entire 2019 calendar year. So if Davina is commercially viable, it will not be available until mid 2020 at earliest and maybe later still. If it is not commercially viable, then the current DAC equipment will probably stand until the FPGA manufacturers come up with less costly options to try out multipliers of Rob's 1 million TAP pulse-array technologies.

The Chord Electronics time-line is a very full one and must be very exciting to be working for such a transformational team discovering things about human hearing and electronics that were not thought possible just a few years ago. I am enthused!

Regards
GG


----------



## iDesign (Sep 14, 2018)

Triode User said:


> I can’t see the point of Chord rushing to do a stand alone MScaler to match the Dave case. Where would it fit in the pricing and who would buy if it was more than HMS? I suspect the next big change in the Choral range will be along the lines of a Dave2 / MScaler2 but maybe not for quite a while.


I understand that Chord will never bring a stand-alone M Scaler to the market in the Choral design. However, I would immediately purchase one if they did because I want one that matches the DAVE's enclosure. The Blu Mk II's CD player is not terribly useful for me because I already ripped my CD library and I use TIDAL. I haven't played a CD in years.


----------



## Triode User

rgs9200m said:


> Thank you Triode User for your good perspective. I guess I did assume an M-scaling DAVE would require a bigger case (which is fine, since DAVE is very compact currently).
> Thanks to JaZZ too.



Please only regard my thoughts as musings or ramblings and they could be 100% off target so please take with liberal doses of salt. In all this the only guys who really know what might happen are JF and RW.



iDesign said:


> The Blu Mk II's CD player is not terribly useful for me because I already ripped my CD library and I use TIDAL. I haven't played a CD in years.



I do get that but for many of us playing a CD on Blu2 is outright the best quality sound and outperforms a ripped version. Also, don't forget that from Chords perspective there are some markets around the world where the use of CDs is still very strong. Just as an aside, I do find the act of playing CDs more pleasurable than selecting a ripped file and I tend to listen to whole CDs rather that flitting here and there in my ripped library. But that is another debate.


----------



## dac64

iDesign said:


> bring a stand-alone M Scaler to the market that in the Choral design. However, I would immediately purchase one if they did because I want one that matches the DAVE's enclosure...



This does remind me of table manner, joke aside.


----------



## iDesign (Sep 14, 2018)

Triode User said:


> Please only regard my thoughts as musings or ramblings and they could be 100% off target so please take with liberal doses of salt. In all this the only guys who really know what might happen are JF and RW.
> 
> 
> 
> I do get that but for many of us playing a CD on Blu2 is outright the best quality sound and outperforms a ripped version. Also, don't forget that from Chords perspective there are some markets around the world where the use of CDs is still very strong. Just as an aside, I do find the act of playing CDs more pleasurable than selecting a ripped file and I tend to listen to whole CDs rather that flitting here and there in my ripped library. But that is another debate.


All fair points. I have one of the largest known private collections of rare and out of print classical recordings in the US (particularly in works for the violin) and a good bit of those albums are CDs. So the Blu Mk II does make _some_ sense for me. However, I ripped most of my collection and rarely play compact discs-- I only do so when the track/album info is a mess in Roon and Audirvana off my server. I will purchase the Blu Mk II at some point but I'm not over the edge just yet and my dealer isn't coy in trying to sell it to me.


----------



## dac64 (Sep 14, 2018)

iDesign said:


> I have one of the largest known private collections of rare and out of print classical recordings in the US (particularly in works for the violin) and a good bit of those albums are CDs. So the Blu Mk II does make _some_ sense for me. However, I ripped most of my collection and rarely play compact discs



Even though I have an isolated ripping system, I still heard slight differences between with/without ground boxes, non/battery-powered to the external drive.

My best guess is to get a blu2 to compare with the ripped  files.


----------



## AndrewOld

One product that is imaginable, though not necessarily sensible, is a DAVE without the upsampling and inputs that are now handled by the MScaler. ie a DAC-only DAVE. Who knows, maybe it could go in an M Scaler type box. You could call it an AndyDAC. It would be an upgrade for MScaler/Hugo or MScaler/TT2 owners. If it could go in less expensive casework and perhaps exploit newer FPGAs it might even be a worthwhile amount less expensive.


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## musickid (Sep 17, 2018)

CD is still very large in se asia china japan etc so chord must have done extremely well there with blu2  chinese businessmen with money to spend i imagine would cherish the blu/dave with their love of classical recordings.

Does AndyDac employ the new andromeda star system fpga and have a wife called Mandydac?


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## simorag (Sep 17, 2018)

This is about the crossfeed (CF) function of the DAVE (when used with headphones, of course).

I always appreciated this functionality, but I used to set it to its lowest level (1 out of 3). I did some tests initially, but I was somewhat influenced by not being a fan of DSP in general and by having not liked the CF function I tried in the past with various software implementations (Foobar, JRiver, Roon), so I decided to use also the DAVE implementation moderately.

Things changed about 1 month ago when I was a bit annoyed by a jazz recording where the trumpet was blowing just into my right ear. I switched to crossfeed=3 and the instruments positioning in space (including the fastidious trumpet) instantly took a more realistic arrangement.

Then I tried several other recordings (mainly classical, vocals, jazz), and the benefits - while varying depending on the recording itself - were consistent. So I decided to switch to CF=3 as my daily driver and stayed like that ever since. Now I use CF=0 only with binaural recordings.

After living with CF=3 for a while, I find it now really hard to go back to CF=0 or CF=1. The difference is striking now, much more than when I was just doing short A/B tests. The main advantages are:

- more focused imaging (CF=0 sounds blurred in comparison)
- better soundstage depth, both in terms of music layering and in terms of overall location with respect to the listener (with CF=0 you are surrounded by music sometimes, in an unnatural way)
- better left-to-right instrument placing and separation
- more realistic instruments / vocalist sizing (with CF=0 they feel oversized)

The overall result is that it is easier to forget you are wearing headphones, and the illusion of attending a live event is just more effective 

As usual, YMMV!

Simone


----------



## TheAttorney (Sep 17, 2018)

I also use CF=3 as my default setting now, although CF=2 is also ok if the recording is helped by a touch more width (at the expense of depth).

Remember that increasing the CF also increases bass boost (up to about 2db for CF=3).so the somewhat smoother and less fatiguing end result is not just because of the more natural way the left/right soundwaves reach your ears - it's also because the frequency response has literally changed.

Having got used to DAVE's CF over a long period, I now find that switching it off sounds completely broken, although this affects some recordings (and headphones) more than others.


----------



## Arcabonne

Dear all, today my Dave has started to emit strange noises, either alone or connected to the Blue. I changed the cables, but the noise remained. It's like a rain of ticking, like the noise of hail falling on a glass. I'm very worried, I'm in Italy, far from assistance. Do you have any idea about the causes? Thanks in advance.


----------



## OK-Guy

Arcabonne said:


> Dear all, today my Dave has started to emit strange noises, either alone or connected to the Blue. I changed the cables, but the noise remained. It's like a rain of ticking, like the noise of hail falling on a glass. I'm very worried, I'm in Italy, far from assistance. Do you have any idea about the causes? Thanks in advance.



in the first instance please contact your Chord dealer for advice, alternatively contact Chord at info@chordelectronics.co.uk, hth.


----------



## Triode User

Arcabonne said:


> Dear all, today my Dave has started to emit strange noises, either alone or connected to the Blue. I changed the cables, but the noise remained. It's like a rain of ticking, like the noise of hail falling on a glass. I'm very worried, I'm in Italy, far from assistance. Do you have any idea about the causes? Thanks in advance.



Is this noise coming through the speakers or is it a physical noise from the Dave box?

Anyway, maybe try a direct email to Chord support for the best and quickest advice (I dont have their email to hand but there is a message service on their website)?  Edit, OK-Guy has given you the email.


----------



## maxh22

I'm interested in some opinions...

Those that have tried using Dave direct to power amp do you prefer the sound with or without a preamp in the chain?

Is there a consensus that Dave or other Chord dacs sound better direct to solid state amps versus tube amps?


----------



## Crgreen

maxh22 said:


> I'm interested in some opinions...
> 
> Those that have tried using Dave direct to power amp do you prefer the sound with or without a preamp in the chain?
> 
> Is there a consensus that Dave or other Chord dacs sound better direct to solid state amps versus tube amps?



I tend to prefer mine through a preamp, though since I also play vinyl, I don’t really have a choice..

People’s views differ, and much depends on the preamp and power amp in question. I doubt that anyone’s tried enough different components to form a reliable view as to solid state v tube amps in this respect. The most than can say is in respect of particular models rather than types of amp.


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## Triode User (Sep 17, 2018)

maxh22 said:


> I'm interested in some opinions...
> 
> Those that have tried using Dave direct to power amp do you prefer the sound with or without a preamp in the chain?
> 
> Is there a consensus that Dave or other Chord dacs sound better direct to solid state amps versus tube amps?



By quite a margin I prefer my Dave direct into my Pass Labs power amps. I have heard good quality pre amps and I can see how some might like their sound signature but for me they degrade the sound quality and transparency.

However, going into a tube power amp I have always preferred a preamp by an equal margin. Again for reasons of sound quality and not tonal colouration. My favourite pre amp into tube power amps is a Music First transformer volume control passive preamp and of those I prefer the silver wound version.


----------



## Arcabonne

Triode User said:


> Is this noise coming through the speakers or is it a physical noise from the Dave box?
> 
> Anyway, maybe try a direct email to Chord support for the best and quickest advice (I dont have their email to hand but there is a message service on their website)? Edit, OK-Guy has given you the email.


The noise came out directly from the Dave, not through the headphone or speakers. It is indipendent from the inputs, and whether there is an active signal or not. The noise does not affect listening (for now, at least).


----------



## musickid

I wonder if the xfeed algorithm is identical for H2 vs Dave as the impressions of dave xfeed3 describe exactly what i experience with H2 xfeed on max blue or 3rd setting up.


----------



## dac64

Arcabonne said:


> The noise came out directly from the Dave, not through the headphone or speakers. It is indipendent from the inputs, and whether there is an active signal or not. The noise does not affect listening (for now, at least).



Have you try switch off the Dave, unplug everything, and switch it on again after few mins without any connections to other equipment?


----------



## Arcabonne

dac64 said:


> Have you try switch off the Dave, unplug everything, and switch it on again after few mins without any connections to other equipment?


Yes I tried, unfortunately it did not work. Thanks anyway.


----------



## Triode User

Arcabonne said:


> Yes I tried, unfortunately it did not work. Thanks anyway.



Email Chord and/or your dealer then. You might consider attaching a short video to your email with the noise by way of making it clear how the noise sounds. Good luck and hope you get sorted soon.


----------



## burbster

maxh22 said:


> I'm interested in some opinions...
> 
> Those that have tried using Dave direct to power amp do you prefer the sound with or without a preamp in the chain?
> 
> Is there a consensus that Dave or other Chord dacs sound better direct to solid state amps versus tube amps?



I can't comment on valve v solid state but I prefer my Dave direct to the power amp. Also, pursuit perfect system have done a number of YouTube review videos and his final conclusion was the dave was better when used direct into power amp. On the other side of the argument my local dealer is adamant the dave sounds far meatier and superior when used with a quality pre amp. Like all of this stuff it's personal preference. One final  thought though, if you look at the etude amp designed to get the best from the dave, chords words not mine, they obviously feel optimum set up is straight to power amp.


----------



## ciukas

musickid said:


> I wonder if the xfeed algorithm is identical for H2 vs Dave as the impressions of dave xfeed3 describe exactly what i experience with H2 xfeed on max blue or 3rd setting up.



Yes the crossfeed is the same across all devices. Had this confirmed very recently by Mr. Watts.


----------



## xxx1313

ciukas said:


> Yes the crossfeed is the same across all devices. Had this confirmed very recently by Mr. Watts.



Still, crossfeed implementation is much more impressive with DAVE, imo. I did not listen with crossfeed on H2, but listen with crossfeed on DAVE nearly 100%.


----------



## ciukas

You mean thanks to Dave’s 17th order noise shaper, 20e pulse array, much more sophisticated and complex analog op, yea no crap. But I think the code remains identical. Also agree that I find the crossfeed function indispensable, even on the H2. Will audition the Dave vs the TT2 in London next mth and report back on the crossfeed function as well. One of them is coming back home w the HMS. Late to the party I know...


----------



## NoGameNoLife

ciukas said:


> You mean thanks to Dave’s 17th order noise shaper, 20e pulse array, much more sophisticated and complex analog op, yea no ****. But I think the code remains identical. Also agree that I find the crossfeed function indispensable, even on the H2. Will audition the Dave vs the TT2 in London next mth and report back on the crossfeed function as well. One of them is coming back home w the HMS. Late to the party I know...



I look forward to your comparison of the 2. Been seriously considering investing in the Dave for some time now but the TT 2 has me intrigued. Will be interesting to see how it compares to its older brother. Also get the feeling a Dave 2 would not be too far in the horizon in the next couple of years.


----------



## simorag

While we're at this (crossfeed topic), I am listening now to The Trinity Session from Cowboy Junkies. This is a very special, minimalistic recording made in one day, when the band gathered around a single mike in the Holy Trinity church in Toronto. They were utterly inspired that day and their music would be mesmerizing even listened through a tin can…

But, through DAVE / Abyss with the help of crossfeed, you are delivered with one of those really moving experiences, where all the gear and its underlying technology seem to disappear and you are left fully exposed not only to the music, but to the replay of an _event_, made of time, space, sound, living beings and their emotions and talent.


----------



## Triode User

simorag said:


> While we're at this (crossfeed topic), I am listening now to The Trinity Session from Cowboy Junkies. This is a very special, minimalistic recording made in one day, when the band gathered around a single mike in the Holy Trinity church in Toronto. They were utterly inspired that day and their music would be mesmerizing even listened through a tin can…
> 
> But, through DAVE / Abyss with the help of crossfeed, you are delivered with one of those really moving experiences, where all the gear and its underlying technology seem to disappear and you are left fully exposed not only to the music, but to the replay of an _event_, made of time, space, sound, living beings and their emotions and talent.



A great recording. Do you have the original version or the Revisited one?


----------



## simorag

Triode User said:


> A great recording. Do you have the original version or the Revisited one?



I have the original, but I think I'll get the Revisited as well!


----------



## Triode User

Recommended, I have both.


----------



## OK-Guy

Triode User said:


> Recommended, I have both.



+1 great albums... normally after the 'Junkies' I put on a album by Cat Power (Jukebox), it hasn't got that 'chamber' feel of the Trinity-Sessions but it fits for late-night listening... think I'll listen to 'Over the Rhine -Good Dog, Bad Dog now... followed by the Junkies, life is good.


----------



## tunes

tunes said:


> I think number one on that list costs a mere $89,000.


Are there any reviews yet comparing the Focal Utopia, HEKV2, HEKse and Final D8000?  The only other consideration would be the STAX SR-009 but not sure I want to introduce a tube amp into the chain when using my CHORD DAVE. M-scaler with DAVE could be a game changer regarding these comparisons though!


----------



## danish71 (Sep 23, 2018)

burbster said:


> I can't comment on valve v solid state but I prefer my Dave direct to the power amp. Also, pursuit perfect system have done a number of YouTube review videos and his final conclusion was the dave was better when used direct into power amp. On the other side of the argument my local dealer is adamant the dave sounds far meatier and superior when used with a quality pre amp. Like all of this stuff it's personal preference. One final  thought though, if you look at the etude amp designed to get the best from the dave, chords words not mine, they obviously feel optimum set up is straight to power amp.


Perfect Pursuits review system includes the Luxman c700u preamp. Who knows if he had reached the same conclusion if he had used the TOTL c900u..


----------



## dac64

danish71 said:


> Perfect Pursuits review system includes the Luxman c700u preamp. Who knows if he had reached the same conclusion if he had used the TOTL c900u..



Well! My conventional speakers sounded like an electrostatic speakers when the Qutest paired with the c1000f.

If i could sell my pre-power at a reasonable price, I will go for HMS/TT2 directly -》speakers.


----------



## danish71 (Sep 24, 2018)

dac64 said:


> Well! My conventional speakers sounded like an electrostatic speakers when the Qutest paired with the c1000f.



Is that good or bad??


----------



## dac64

danish71 said:


> Is that good or bad??



Electrostatic speakers are much more transparent than conventional speakers.

However, this might not be a good example because Qutest can't directly  drive the speakers unless static output, be it 1v, 2v or 3v.


----------



## ufospls2

Hi Dave owners,

Are any of you aware when these new "digital amps" that have been spoken about will come out? I'm not even sure how a digital amp works. I'm considering the Etude, but might be better to wait? I have no clue. 

Thanks for the help.


----------



## burbster

ufospls2 said:


> Hi Dave owners,
> 
> Are any of you aware when these new "digital amps" that have been spoken about will come out? I'm not even sure how a digital amp works. I'm considering the Etude, but might be better to wait? I have no clue.
> 
> Thanks for the help.



Hi I believe that John Frank's posted earlier in this forum words to the effect that digital amps will be quite some time, I think the inference was a few years. I am also curious to try the etude, I have also been told that over the next year all of chords current range will move to the etude' s topology.


----------



## ufospls2

burbster said:


> Hi I believe that John Frank's posted earlier in this forum words to the effect that digital amps will be quite some time, I think the inference was a few years. I am also curious to try the etude, I have also been told that over the next year all of chords current range will move to the etude' s topology.



Neat. thanks for the reply


----------



## Galm (Sep 25, 2018)

Hey guys would there be a reason for an iem to sound really bad through an adapter?  It was an all metal fairly cheap adapter.  I was using an Andromeda and it sounded atrocious for some reason.  Like the highs and the lows were massively reduced.  I remember reading a while back that could be related to the adapter being all metal and having contact with the chassis?  Is there anything to that, does anyone have a good recommendation for 3.5mm to 1/4" adapter for DAVE?

It shouldn't be the DAVE, a Hugo 2 sounds fine with an Andro...


----------



## auricgoldfinger

Galm said:


> does anyone have a good recommendation for 3.5mm to 1/4" adapter for DAVE?



https://doublehelixcables.com/product/ultrashort-adapter-for-adapting-amp-terminations/


----------



## rgs9200m

Since there is a Blu-Dave name for a Blu2 + DAVE, is there a name for a DAVE with an M-Scaler yet (like Ms. Dave)?


----------



## Mojo ideas

ufospls2 said:


> Hi Dave owners,
> 
> Are any of you aware when these new "digital amps" that have been spoken about will come out? I'm not even sure how a digital amp works. I'm considering the Etude, but might be better to wait? I have no clue.
> 
> Thanks for the help.


I’m quite aware of these digital Amps that Rob has been working on for many years.  I can confirm that we are at least several years away, in producing any Amplifier comparable to the power performance of our new Etude Amplifier. These are just hitting the dealers in the coming weeks if your looking for a truly amazing amp I’d get a demo lined if you can.


----------



## jarnopp

rgs9200m said:


> Since there is a Blu-Dave name for a Blu2 + DAVE, is there a name for a DAVE with an M-Scaler yet (like Ms. Dave)?



“HMS Dave” ?


----------



## JaZZ (Sep 26, 2018)

I would call it *MS-Dave*. Or, well, *HMS-Dave* or *HMSDave*.

The Swiss distributor just changed availability from «September» to «November». I'm patiently waiting and enjoying the great sound from DAVE and HE1000 till then.


----------



## danish71

My black Dave arrived today, and I am amazed how much better it is than my Merging NADAC and Hugo2. The sound is incredibly tangible and some times I feel the sound is just emanating out of the thin air and not from my Vivid Giyas! I can’t wait to plug in the Mscaler, hopefully in the beginning of next month.
Now my “problem” is that I also ordered a Hugo TT2 for my office space, but now that I have listened to the Dave, I crave for the same sound quality in the office.
Should I change the order to a second Dave instead of the TT2? On the other hand, I am also curious about the TT2, even though the Dave should be leaps and bounds better, right? I have plans for an MScaler in the office anyway, so maybe a TT2 is just fine.
I know, it’s a rediculous first world problem


----------



## miketlse

danish71 said:


> My black Dave arrived today, and I am amazed how much better it is than my Merging NADAC and Hugo2. The sound is incredibly tangible and some times I feel the sound is just emanating out of the thin air and not from my Vivid Giyas! I can’t wait to plug in the Mscaler, hopefully in the beginning of next month.
> Now my “problem” is that I also ordered a Hugo TT2 for my office space, but now that I have listened to the Dave, I crave for the same sound quality in the office.
> Should I change the order to a second Dave instead of the TT2? On the other hand, I am also curious about the TT2, even though the Dave should be leaps and bounds better, right? I have plans for an MScaler in the office anyway, so maybe a TT2 is just fine.
> I know, it’s a rediculous first world problem


Read the series of posts by @musickid as he explores what his H2 and MScaler can do together.
Maybe a TT2 and MScaler could satisfy your needs in the short term.


----------



## Triode User

miketlse said:


> Read the series of posts by @musickid as he explores what his H2 and MScaler can do together.
> Maybe a TT2 and MScaler could satisfy your needs in the short term.



Yes but MK isn’t used to a Dave . . . .


----------



## seaice (Sep 26, 2018)

danish71 said:


> My black Dave arrived today, and I am amazed how much better it is than my Merging NADAC and Hugo2. The sound is incredibly tangible and some times I feel the sound is just emanating out of the thin air and not from my Vivid Giyas! I can’t wait to plug in the Mscaler, hopefully in the beginning of next month.
> Now my “problem” is that I also ordered a Hugo TT2 for my office space, but now that I have listened to the Dave, I crave for the same sound quality in the office.
> Should I change the order to a second Dave instead of the TT2? On the other hand, I am also curious about the TT2, even though the Dave should be leaps and bounds better, right? I have plans for an MScaler in the office anyway, so maybe a TT2 is just fine.
> I know, it’s a rediculous first world problem



If you plan to use a power-hungry headpones then the TT2 could be a good complement of Dave.


----------



## Jawed

ufospls2 said:


> Are any of you aware when these new "digital amps" that have been spoken about will come out? I'm not even sure how a digital amp works. I'm considering the Etude, but might be better to wait? I have no clue.


Hugo TT 2 is about 18W into 8ohms and seems to be equivalent to the "DX" amps ("power pulse array" is the other name you will see for the DX amps) in terms of transparency, purity and so on. Though that's a guess as I'm not sure how similar the DX amps will be.

So it would be very interesting to compare Hugo TT 2 against Etude to find out how much transparency is lost. Ideally you would connect DAVE directly to speakers, then compare TT2 against that and then Etude. As you gain "power" and "control", in theory you lose transparency and purity. Since DAVE's pulse array is better for transparency and purity than Hugo TT 2's less capable pulse array, there's some loss. Etude, because it uses significantly more electronics, will be theoretically even less transparent and probably less pure.

(It could also be said that the demands of a speaker connected to DAVE or TT 2, will harm transparency due to the demand for current. I don't know if that's true. It's simpler to make the comparisons! It will probably vary enormously with speaker efficiency and room size, let alone typical listening volume.)

Ideally, Chord would make a version of DAVE that had the TT 2 output circuitry. Why can't there be a DAVE 2 which only has one change: the power capability of Hugo TT 2? I think there would be a lot of people who would like to use such a DAVE 2. There might even be a lot of DAVE owners who would do that upgrade... Especially as there are several headphones out there that are considered too power hungry for DAVE to drive directly.

DAVE owners may not find Hugo TT 2 to be an upgrade if they are driving their speakers from DAVE, especially if they use efficient loudspeakers or listen in a close configuration. Power won't be so much of a problem and transparency will be the most important quality. So a DAVE 2 with enhanced output power could be very compelling.

Now playing: Angel Olsen - The Blacksmith


----------



## Triode User

Jawed said:


> deally, Chord would make a version of DAVE that had the TT 2 output circuitry. Why can't there be a DAVE 2 which only has one change: the power capability of Hugo TT 2? I think there would be a lot of people who would like to use such a DAVE 2. There might even be a lot of DAVE owners who would do that upgrade... Especially as there are several headphones out there that are considered too power hungry for DAVE to drive directly.



Maybe if the TT2 amp circuits are not as transparent as Dave then Dave owners would not be impressed but having an inferior amp tacked onto their Dave? I don't know just wondering so don't take it too seriously.


----------



## danish71

seaice said:


> If you plan to use a power-hungry headpones then the TT2 could be a good complement of Dave.


I prefer speakers and use headphones only when there is a need to be quiet. For these moments I use Focal Utopias and Aeon Flow C, sometimes with a Luxman P-750u. (Still undecided whether to use a hp amp or not, but I’m addicted to the Luxman sound).
So I guess I shouldn’t  buy the TT2, if added power is the only thing, it brings to the table.
I don’t need two highend DACs in the office, because one of them would turn into a quite expensive door stop. Have a second NADAC there already that will soon serve that purpose very well.


----------



## seaice (Sep 26, 2018)

danish71 said:


> I prefer speakers and use headphones only when there is a need to be quiet. For these moments I use Focal Utopias and Aeon Flow C, sometimes with a Luxman P-750u. (Still undecided whether to use a hp amp or not, but I’m addicted to the Luxman sound).
> So I guess I shouldn’t  buy the TT2, if added power is the only thing, it brings to the table.
> I don’t need two highend DACs in the office, because one of them would turn into a quite expensive door stop. Have a second NADAC there already that will soon serve that purpose very well.



According to opinions I saw here, Focal headphones (Utopia etc.) are very good with the headphone amp integrated in Dave, i.e. no need of stronger / external headphone amp.

I have Hifiman Susvara: They are not bad with Dave but more powerful headphone amps drive them better (with DAVE as source DAC).


----------



## Imusicman

Utopia directly into the Dave is incredible. There’s really no need for any additional power at all. The Susvara on the other hand and a few others will need more power but really it is only few.
Unless you have these headphones I really don’t see a need for anything else.


----------



## danish71

Imusicman said:


> Utopia directly into the Dave is incredible. There’s really no need for any additional power at all. The Susvara on the other hand and a few others will need more power but really it is only few.
> Unless you have these headphones I really don’t see a need for anything else.


Just plugged the Utopias into the Dave for the first time. I wonder at which volume people are listening to with this combo. My initial thought is that the Dave has to be turned up to -20dB before the Utopias come to life - depending on the recording of course.


----------



## x RELIC x

danish71 said:


> Just plugged the Utopias into the Dave for the first time. I wonder at which volume people are listening to with this combo. My initial thought is that the Dave has to be turned up to -20dB before the Utopias come to life - depending on the recording of course.



I listen at -30dB to -40dB on the DAVE depending on the track with the Utopia (in a quiet environment).


----------



## ufospls2

Mojo ideas said:


> I’m quite aware of these digital Amps that Rob has been working on for many years.  I can confirm that we are at least several years away, in producing any Amplifier comparable to the power performance of our new Etude Amplifier. These are just hitting the dealers in the coming weeks if your looking for a truly amazing amp I’d get a demo lined if you can.



Thanks John. Looking forward to hearing it when I can : )


----------



## ecwl

x RELIC x said:


> I listen at -30dB to -40dB on the DAVE depending on the track with the Utopia (in a quiet environment).


Me too. But since I’ve brought my Utopia and DAVE to my local Head-Fi meet a couple of times, I’ve found some people would prefer to listen at up to -10dB, depending on musical material of course. In general, I find most Head-Fi people locally listen to music at 5-15dB louder than me and rarely at 20dB louder. So my gut feeling is that @danish71 is closer to the norm than I am.


----------



## ufospls2

Well, the iFi iDSD BL is a great bit of gear (and what I usually use during the daytime) but....







It was time to bring the DAVE downstairs for a listening session today. While the HE6se does need more power than the DAVE offers, at lower volume listening, it is pretty impressive in terms of detail and clarity. I might not have an MScaler or BluMK2 but...oof. I sure do love the DAVE.


----------



## x RELIC x

ecwl said:


> Me too. But since I’ve brought my Utopia and DAVE to my local Head-Fi meet a couple of times, I’ve found some people would prefer to listen at up to -10dB, depending on musical material of course. In general, I find most Head-Fi people locally listen to music at 5-15dB louder than me and rarely at 20dB louder. So my gut feeling is that @danish71 is closer to the norm than I am.



Agreed. I’ve put some effort toward listening lower than I did in my youth and I feel it’s been very much worth it. I’m quite surprised sometimes at the average volume level I read from some users, but live and let live.


----------



## danish71

x RELIC x said:


> Agreed. I’ve put some effort toward listening lower than I did in my youth and I feel it’s been very much worth it.


Sounds like a wise choice. Often thought about it, but I think I will try to pay more attention. It's just so easy to fall into the pit of going louder and louder with this level of gear that exhibit virtually no distortion.


----------



## Imusicman

danish71 said:


> Just plugged the Utopias into the Dave for the first time. I wonder at which volume people are listening to with this combo. My initial thought is that the Dave has to be turned up to -20dB before the Utopias come to life - depending on the recording of course.


Most of my listening was done between -40db to -30db. On around 3500 tracks


----------



## rgs9200m (Sep 28, 2018)

Just wanted to say I'm getting spectacular sound with my DAVE and the Pioneer SEM1 headphones.
See my comments in the Pioneer thread. It's quite different, but just as musical and satisfying as my Utopia/Lazuli Reference headphone. Really.

See my impressions in post #1721 on page 115 of the Pioneer thread from Sept 27, 2018 at 6:03 pm.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/pio...nes-se-master-1.764513/page-115#post-14509000


----------



## musickid

rgs have you compared sony mdr z1r to pioneer both are within my price range for my next headphone i'm leaning to sony as pioneer could be too heavy?


----------



## rgs9200m (Oct 2, 2018)

I have not written yet to compare them directly, but I have both.
But here's my take on things.

The Pioneer is more balanced, with a more natural bass to me, and is more tolerant with recording that are tipped up in the highs.
The Sony is prone to some searing highs, that's why I use the Sony-Kimber cable with it to deal with it.

I just find the Pioneer more refined, which to me means that it is easier on the ears.
I also love the detail on the Pioneer, where little background things are more developed than on the Sony, and in fact more developed than most headphones.

The bass is prominent in both of these headphones, but (especially after a lot of listening and I think break in with the Pioneer), Pioneer bass is not as pushy as the Sony.
The Pioneer is just plain fun, and not assaultive.

If I am sounding like I prefer the Pioneer, well, the answer is yes.

I don't find the Pioneer heavy at all. I have even thought about or noticed the weight at all. It's a really comfortable headphone in every way. I am kind of obsessed with comfort in my headphones, and the Pioneer is great for me.

I'm keeping the Sony to complement the Pioneer because it's still nice and interesting and unique and I like variety.

But if I had to choose, the SEM1 is my choice. To me, it's a very special headphone.


----------



## musickid

The new Ether 2 at less than 300g sounds very promising. An excellent potential match for my H2/HMS.


----------



## Jozurr

musickid said:


> The new Ether 2 at less than 300g sounds very promising. An excellent potential match for my H2/HMS.



An excellent match with that setup are the Utopias


----------



## GLM101

Hi,

Sorry that I am very late to the DAVE party......but I have finally managed to get one! I still have not worked out why my wife said YES!

Could be a silly question coming up:  When I use the DAVE through the USB lead the Bit rate does not change. For example playing VNV Nation Resonance it still says 44.1.
However when I use an optical cable from my Cowon P1 it shows 88Khz!
Could it be my laptop or me using Windows Media Player?


----------



## burbster

GLM101 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sorry that I am very late to the DAVE party......but I have finally managed to get one! I still have not worked out why my wife said YES!
> 
> ...



Hi, Firstly congrats on getting a DAVE! I use to use a PC for my music before switching to a dedicated server, I suspect that somewhere in your windows set up you have a fixed output set. I never used media player, but I do remember that without setting things up correctly windows likes to default to a set bitrate regardless of source bitrate. Can't remember exactly where, but you have to set up something that says allow source bit rate. Maybe some one more knowledgeable on here can give you a more specific answer.


----------



## AndrewOld

GLM101 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sorry that I am very late to the DAVE party......but I have finally managed to get one! I still have not worked out why my wife said YES!
> 
> ...



The bit rate should change to match the recording. But unless you bypass the windows mixer windows itself will up or downsample. So the safest thing to do is to use a media player like J River Media Center with the Chord drivers and set it up to take exclusive control of the output. Then Windows does not get a chance to mess with the bitrate or anything - what goes to the DAC is what is on the file. J River have a 30 day free trial.


----------



## GLM101

Thanks for your reply.

I will have a look through the windows set-up.  I thought downloading the Chord driver would have been enough!
I might try another player like JRiver or or Jet audio.

Tell you what, I am surprised about is the ease in which DAVE plays different types of music.
Today I have played Tangerine Dream, Chroma Key, VNV Nation, Frequency Drift, Fruitcake, Sub Focus, Genesis and ELP and I never once had to adjust anything on the DAVE, it just took it in it's stride.
Simply outstanding!!  But of course most people on here know how good the DAVE is.

Once again, thanks for your swift reply.

Gideon


----------



## GLM101

AndrewOld said:


> The bit rate should change to match the recording. But unless you bypass the windows mixer windows itself will up or downsample. So the safest thing to do is to use a media player like J River Media Center with the Chord drivers and set it up to take exclusive control of the output. Then Windows does not get a chance to mess with the bitrate or anything - what goes to the DAC is what is on the file. J River have a 30 day free trial.



Thank you for the reply, I will have a go and see what happens.  

regards

Gideon


----------



## Elecroestatico

1- left click on the speaker icon located next to the windows clock and select "playback devices"
2- Here you see a list of all your sound cards, double click on your chord dac and make sure you disable all enhancements and check both squares for the exclusive mode options. Sometimes there are other tabs like "spacial sound" make sure you disable these or set them to "none". Apply all changes and press OK
3- Download\install foobar, then download ks component and asio component, both for foobar. Install the components on foobar (this is a bit tricky so google how to install components for foobar.
4- Go to preferences in foobar and select  "playback". here you can set replay gain options to none. Now playback has a submenu, open it with double click and go to the  "Output"  and from the Device list select either ks chord or asio chord and basically experiment what sounds better for you. Click apply for changes to take effect. 

I think thats it. I dont have dave but im lucky to have mojo, so the instruccions are very similar if not the same

hope it helps. if its working you will see automatic bitrate changes according to the file song you are playing on Dave and other programs wont have sound as long as foobar is playing.


----------



## rayl

If you use foobar or something else with bit perfect output via wsapi, that is best -- and the particular windows mixer settings don't matter (apart from allow exclusive control)....

If one must go through windows mixer (some internet radio stations that play through browser, for example), then setting windows mixer to match 44.1khz with no effects is the best one can do....


----------



## JaZZ (Oct 10, 2018)

GLM101 said:


> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> I will have a look through the windows set-up. I thought downloading the Chord driver would have been enough!
> I might try another player like JRiver or or Jet audio.


_Hi Gideon_

The Chord driver only affects the USB output, not S/PDIF (including Toslink). So a dedicated media player as mentioned by Andrew is mandatory to be on the safe side and get bit-perfect data through Asio or Wasapi drivers. Like in my case with _foobar2000:_ «WASAPI (event) : Digitalaudio (S/PDIF)».


----------



## Imusicman

GLM101 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sorry that I am very late to the DAVE party......but I have finally managed to get one! I still have not worked out why my wife said YES!
> 
> ...



Hi Gideon, I highly recommend Jriver. That's what Ive been using with the Dave


----------



## AndrewOld

GLM101 said:


> Thank you for the reply, I will have a go and see what happens.
> 
> regards
> 
> Gideon



Great, if you get stuck or want a bit of help please ask. You are only a few clicks away from a really robust solution with J River, I believe Mr Watts himself uses it,


----------



## GLM101

Imusicman said:


> Hi Gideon, I highly recommend Jriver. That's what Ive been using with the Dave



Thank you all so much for your wonderful responses.

I forgot that I had foobar on my laptop.
So, I tried it and the bit rate showed as 48khz which was an improvement on 44.1!
Then played Steve Wilson (hand cannot erase) which is 96khz however foobar was still showing 48Khz!
Tomorrow I will check out foobar plugins for ASIO and WASAPI and see if I can install them correctly.

Once again thank you all for your responses, nice to be in a community who take the time to help others.

Kind regards,

Gideon


----------



## rayl

GLM101 said:


> Thank you all so much for your wonderful responses.
> 
> I forgot that I had foobar on my laptop.
> So, I tried it and the bit rate showed as 48khz which was an improvement on 44.1!
> ...



My opinion is that if on Win 10, WASAPI is muuuuuch more stable.... and I have not heard a quality difference (though I also know that some will swear by ASIO -- my bottom line suggestion is, get wasapi, preferably using event model, working first and use that as baseline. That is the most stable bit perfect mode on Win 10.)

One more detail-- foobar does have a DSP manager -- make sure that doesn't have anything activated.


----------



## Elecroestatico (Oct 10, 2018)

GLM101 said:


> Thank you all so much for your wonderful responses.
> 
> I forgot that I had foobar on my laptop.
> So, I tried it and the bit rate showed as 48khz which was an improvement on 44.1!
> ...


OMG people he is not asking about spidf driver or stability issues or a simple recomendation for a software or a dedicated music player, he wants to do it from the PC got it? JESUS! Looks like many just want to accomulate posts to appear helpful. Just follow my instrucctions and you are good to go. jriver anf foobar do sound different even in bit perfect mode and to me foobar is better and is not 50 bucks like jriver if i remember like 2 years ago that was the price. Also foobar doesnt install any DSP preinstalled, so again another post pointing this out that it doesnt matter. Guys if you cant answer a question dont fill the forum with unnecessary info.   Enough rant. But to answer your question, yes the reason you cant go to 96khz is because you have not installed asio or ks components to foobar, dont skip my steps, follow them as they are and you should be good to go. And for the person suggesting 44.1 khz for radio listening, thats also the default sample rate windows puts mojo to work with, so again no need to mention these unnecessary info that confuses more, but if you must know mine is set to 48khz because most movies, games and youtube have streaming at this bitrate and thats what i do more. And for music i use tidal but that takes excvlusive control of DAC as well so again here the sample rate to set in windows doesnt matter.


----------



## Crgreen

Elecroestatico said:


> OMG people he is not asking about spidf driver or stability issues or a simple recomendation for a software or a dedicated music player, he wants to do it from the PC got it? JESUS! Looks like many just want to accomulate posts to appear helpful. Just follow my instrucctions and you are good to go. jriver anf foobar do sound different even in bit perfect mode and to me foobar is better and is not 50 bucks like jriver if i remember like 2 years ago that was the price. Also foobar doesnt install any DSP preinstalled, so again another post pointing this out that it doesnt matter. Guys if you cant answer a question dont fill the forum with unnecessary info.   Enough rant. But to answer your question, yes the reason you cant go to 96khz is because you have not installed asio or ks components to foobar, dont skip my steps, follow them as they are and you should be good to go. And for the person suggesting 44.1 khz for radio listening, thats also the default sample rate windows puts mojo to work with, so again no need to mention these unnecessary info that confuses more, but if you must know mine is set to 48khz because most movies, games and youtube have streaming at this bitrate and thats what i do more. And for music i use tidal but that takes excvlusive control of DAC as well so again here the sample rate to set in windows doesnt matter.



I’m confused by all that information.


----------



## rayl

Actually the default sample rate for Windows is 48 kHz, which is why I brought up 44.1 kHz.... <shrug>


----------



## Jawed

Elecroestatico said:


> But to answer your question, yes the reason you cant go to 96khz is because you have not installed asio or ks components to foobar


My Foobar install does not have KS Audio nor ASIO. I use WASAPI (which is a component that has to be installed into Foobar).

I set it to "WASAPI (event)" and I get full support for all the sample rates that Chord's driver allows for. WASAPI is much easier to get working from scratch in Foobar than ASIO.

Thanks to this discussion I discovered there's a software update for the WASAPI component for Foobar 

Now playing: Bon Iver - 46 (Live at the Philharmonie De Paris)


----------



## spotforscott

FYI, I just put up for sale a speaker cable that works great when using a Chord DAVE to directly drive high-efficiency speakers. They are made by ZenWave Audio and it is their TOL speaker cable that is terminated with RCA on DAVE side and Banana on speaker side...


----------



## Elecroestatico

Jawed said:


> My Foobar install does not have KS Audio nor ASIO. I use WASAPI (which is a component that has to be installed into Foobar).
> 
> I set it to "WASAPI (event)" and I get full support for all the sample rates that Chord's driver allows for. WASAPI is much easier to get working from scratch in Foobar than ASIO.
> 
> ...


ASIO and KS streaming components are not installed by default on foobar, you have to download them from the official foobar website. Read my steps a few posts back and don't skip any step and you should be good to go. Wasapi (event or push) i believe is the windows version of asio or ks and that also do sound different, and in my opinion not as clear as asio or ks.


----------



## Elecroestatico

Crgreen said:


> I’m confused by all that information.


see what you guys have done for posting  answers to questions that are not being asked? now people is more confused, so just follow my step guide and dont skip any instructions and you are good to go. Do I need to say it one more time guys? 

also like my  helpful posts please...im hungry for attencion


----------



## Elecroestatico

rayl said:


> Actually the default sample rate for Windows is 48 kHz, which is why I brought up 44.1 kHz.... <shrug>


actually the default bitrate for any sound card connected to a PC is different depending on the product you have. In other words when you install a new sound device  some will set 44 others 48 etc...   And like i said i set mine at 48 because thats what youtube mnovies and games are generally set at 

any more questions?


----------



## GLM101

Well I have been using Foobar2000 today.
I downloaded some components and ended up freezing the programme!
Uninstalled and re-installed Foobar2000 and now the DAVE is showing 96KHz all the time!
However the music is sounding very good!
Forecast is for a storm tomorrow, so I will have plenty of time to try and use the components thing again.

I hope Chord put more detail in their instructions in the future!!!

Regards

Gideon


----------



## rayl

Elecroestatico said:


> actually the default bitrate for any sound card connected to a PC is different depending on the product you have. In other words when you install a new sound device  some will set 44 others 48 etc...   And like i said i set mine at 48 because thats what youtube mnovies and games are generally set at
> 
> any more questions?



I didn't have a question with which to begin, but now that you ask...

If you search this thread a bit further back to maybe Dec 2017, I reported what appeared to be a known issue (as noted by Jawed) with the Chord drivers and Windows mixer.  Namely once a while, I get soft clicks.  (And I even know how to reproduce it by playing the standard Windows boing at a pace such that the next boing starts about half way into the previous one -- with that, you can reproduce it in < 20 clicks.)

Can you maybe work on a patch?  I've given up and go through a 3rd party SPDIF converter for use with Windows mixer.


----------



## GLM101

Elecroestatico said:


> 1- left click on the speaker icon located next to the windows clock and select "playback devices"
> 2- Here you see a list of all your sound cards, double click on your chord dac and make sure you disable all enhancements and check both squares for the exclusive mode options. Sometimes there are other tabs like "spacial sound" make sure you disable these or set them to "none". Apply all changes and press OK
> 3- Download\install foobar, then download ks component and asio component, both for foobar. Install the components on foobar (this is a bit tricky so google how to install components for foobar.
> 4- Go to preferences in foobar and select  "playback". here you can set replay gain options to none. Now playback has a submenu, open it with double click and go to the  "Output"  and from the Device list select either ks chord or asio chord and basically experiment what sounds better for you. Click apply for changes to take effect.
> ...




Hi,

Done it!

I selected  WASAPI (push) : digital output (Chord Async USB 44.1-768Khz) and everytime I change album, the bit rate now changes.

What a great site this is!!!

And I have proved to myself that you can teach an old dog new tricks!


----------



## Drewligarchy

Hi All -

I have a Chord Dave on demo yesterday and today (have to return tomorrow), and trying to make a decision on whether to purchase it or not. I am running it through a KGSSHV Carbon to Stax 009 and a Violectric V281 and LCD 4. This is the first DACe thats synergized well with both setups but.

I was using Roon and an Auarlic Aries USB as the source. This sounded great if a hair bright on the 009, but its how I want them to sound. All the technicalities of the DAC are amazing.

Unfortunately, I am getting dropouts on DSD. Based on my reading this has not been fixed on Linux or OSX sources. Big bummer here.

As a result, I took my Mac Mini (with Win 7 loaded on it), and used that as a source. No problems with DSD. Initial impressions are that sound has lost some bite and is a little softer and soundstage seems smaller.

I am tired and have been trying to get as many hours in as possible so I could make an informed purchase. 

Has anyone else noted similar differences in sound between streamers and PCs? I never trust my initial listening as it could be placebo, but don't have a ton of time and trying to help make sense of what I am hearing from more experienced listeners.

Secondly, Is there a fix for the Dave with any Streamers? I don't know of any that aren't linux based. I'd prefer to use roon.

Thanks for your advice. Going to have another listening session tonight and make a decision. As FYI, previously coming from Yggy for the Staxen and Vega for the LCD 4. Would love one DAC to rule them both.


----------



## ray-dude

Drewligarchy said:


> Unfortunately, I am getting dropouts on DSD. Based on my reading this has not been fixed on Linux or OSX sources. Big bummer here.
> 
> As a result, I took my Mac Mini (with Win 7 loaded on it), and used that as a source. No problems with DSD. Initial impressions are that sound has lost some bite and is a little softer and soundstage seems smaller.
> 
> ...



FWIW (and at the risk of starting a PCM/DSD debate), what you describe is consistent with what I hear with all my DSD recordings, whether driving the DAVE through a Mac connected directly or through a MicroRendu.  To  my ear, PCM just sounds better or DAVE, but DSD still sounds damn good.  For me, DSD (and DSD sourced content) just has a bit more "slosh" and inertia to it

Alas, very hard to be definitive, unless you have access to a recording simultaneously made to PCM and DSD


----------



## Triode User

Drewligarchy said:


> As a result, I took my Mac Mini (with Win 7 loaded on it), and used that as a source. No problems with DSD. Initial impressions are that sound has lost some bite and is a little softer and soundstage seems smaller.



The words you use there imply that the Mac mini might have been putting out less RF noise and could be the better source. ‘Bite’ implies RF noise, ‘softer’ implies less RF noise. My experience is to pursue the sifter, darker sound and let your ears adapt so that eventually when you get used to it there’s more real detail there.


----------



## Cobold

Drewligarchy said:


> Hi All -
> 
> I have a Chord Dave on demo yesterday and today (have to return tomorrow), and trying to make a decision on whether to purchase it or not. I am running it through a KGSSHV Carbon to Stax 009 and a Violectric V281 and LCD 4. This is the first DACe thats synergized well with both setups but.
> 
> ...



Yes, there are very huge source dependent differences. 
Dave can sound from good to exceptional great.
Sorry I can not help with PC or Mac setup. 
I use dedicated melco as source. Average PC with Dave is inferior to 2qute with melco.
Usb cable is of importance too.


----------



## Antiquarian

Drewligarchy said:


> Hi All -
> 
> I have a Chord Dave on demo yesterday and today (have to return tomorrow), and trying to make a decision on whether to purchase it or not. I am running it through a KGSSHV Carbon to Stax 009 and a Violectric V281 and LCD 4. This is the first DACe thats synergized well with both setups but.
> 
> ...


I concur with @Cobold that USB cable, especially on DSD is important.  I had problems driving DAVE from Melco Mk1 on DSD, no problems Melco Mk2 to DAVE or with Mac/Audirvana to DAVE.  I prefer the Melco solution on SQ to Mac/Audirvana.


----------



## rgs9200m (Oct 13, 2018)

I have a  large collection of DSD (dsf files) that use in my Windows 10 / DAVE system and I hear no dropouts at all. I listen to DSD a lot on DAVE in DSD+ mode. I use bit-perfect playback in JRiver.
My dsf files are just stored on external USB solid state hard drives directly attached to my computer.

I also use Audionirvana for DSD and there are no playback issues there either.

(I will say though, EMM CDPs/DACS are truly excellent on DSD. I have one.)


----------



## simorag

Drewligarchy said:


> Secondly, Is there a fix for the Dave with any Streamers? I don't know of any that aren't linux based. I'd prefer to use roon.



I am using the Linux-based Innuos ZENith MkII SE with the DAVE (Phasure Lush^2 USB cable), playback through Roon. When I play DSD files with DAVE in DSD+ mode I experience dropouts quite rarely (say one dropout over 10 tracks).


----------



## musickid

Can someone confirm the latest ios/ipad is working with dave. I'm thinking of connecting roon with an ipad pro to my mscaler. thanks.


----------



## Mikey99

I am testing an M-Scaler with my Chord Dave and am getting a lot of drop outs - at times several a minute. I am running 44.1 kHz ALAC files from my iMac using Roon.  The same issue occurs with iTunes. It only occurs in dual BNC mode at 705.6 kHz, it goes away in all other modes. Have others experienced this? Any ideas on why this is occurring?


----------



## Triode User

Mikey99 said:


> I am testing an M-Scaler with my Chord Dave and am getting a lot of drop outs - at times several a minute. I am running 44.1 kHz ALAC files from my iMac using Roon.  The same issue occurs with iTunes. It only occurs in dual BNC mode at 705.6 kHz, it goes away in all other modes. Have others experienced this? Any ideas on why this is occurring?



Obvious but double check everything is plugged into the correct bnc sockets. I had them plugged into the wrong ones on the MScaler after moving it and got similar. Also, check that the dual bnc cables don’t have a flakey connection (wiggle them). The standard supplied ones are just cheap o escand are not very robust.


----------



## Mikey99

Triode User said:


> Obvious but double check everything is plugged into the correct bnc sockets. I had them plugged into the wrong ones on the MScaler after moving it and got similar. Also, check that the dual bnc cables don’t have a flakey connection (wiggle them). The standard supplied ones are just cheap o escand are not very robust.


Thanks! I have triple checked, they are connected to the right sockets. I do wonder if the cables are flakey, I can induce drop-outs by wiggling them. I have tried re-connecting them several times, no luck so far.


----------



## Triode User

Mikey99 said:


> I can induce drop-outs by wiggling them



I think you have found your answer (or at least probable answer). I get no drop outs ever by wiggling the cables. Can you try different bnc to bnc cables?


----------



## Mikey99

Triode User said:


> I think you have found your answer (or at least probable answer). I get no drop outs ever by wiggling the cables. Can you try different bnc to bnc cables?


Unfortunately these are the only ones I have at hand, I will see if I can get another set from the dealer.


----------



## zettelsm

Drewligarchy said:


> Hi All -
> 
> I have a Chord Dave on demo yesterday and today (have to return tomorrow), and trying to make a decision on whether to purchase it or not. I am running it through a KGSSHV Carbon to Stax 009 and a Violectric V281 and LCD 4. This is the first DACe thats synergized well with both setups but.
> 
> ...



If you are experiencing drop-outs via DSD, look to your sources, network and/or cabling, not to the DAVE. I've successfully used DAVE by itself via USB, and now DAVE with Blu MK II (again, via USB) with an Uptone ultraRendu streamer (fed from a tricked out Mac Mini) and currently an Innuos ZENith streamer/server. Up to DSD256 with either. No dropouts. I run Roon on the ZENith. Now I don't ask the Innuos to do upsampling, sample-rate conversion or any Roon DSP -- the Innuos wasn't designed to do processor-intensive conversion or DSP. However I find it plays high-sample rate DSD at its native resolution, likewise PCM to 24/384 -- I don't have any PCM at higher rates -- just fine.

Hope this helps,

Steve Z


----------



## ecwl

musickid said:


> Can someone confirm the latest ios/ipad is working with dave. I'm thinking of connecting roon with an ipad pro to my mscaler. thanks.


Thanks for the question because I never even thought of using Roon to play into my iPad Pro. I knew that I can play music into from iPad Pro via USB into Blu2 using iTunes/Tidal/Onkyo HF Player as I’ve done it a few times before. I didn’t re-test that functionality as it’s hard to hook up the whole thing as my main stereo is neatly tucked into shelves. But what I didn’t know was what sample rates I can play at with Roon. So I plugged my Mojo into my iPad Pro and played my music through Roon. Mojo works with all sample rates in PCM up to 768kHz. But I can’t get Roon to connect with my iPad Pro to play DSD natively so I had to convert DSD to 756.8kHz to play them back through Mojo. So I suspect that would be your experience with Blu2/M-Scaler too. Now I just learnt a new way to use Roon.


----------



## ecwl

Mikey99 said:


> I am testing an M-Scaler with my Chord Dave and am getting a lot of drop outs - at times several a minute. I am running 44.1 kHz ALAC files from my iMac using Roon.  The same issue occurs with iTunes. It only occurs in dual BNC mode at 705.6 kHz, it goes away in all other modes. Have others experienced this? Any ideas on why this is occurring?


I don’t have Hugo M-Scaler but I do have Blu2. Since DAVE has two sets of dual BNC inputs, the first thing to try is BNC1&2 vs BNC 3&4. For example, for my DAVE, I simply cannot get BNC 1&2 to play without the dropouts whereas BNC3&4 works perfectly fine. Not sure why. Also, I definitely find that jiggling the cables can cause drop outs so that’s not unusual. That happens with my own DAVE or my dealer’s DAVE connected to my Blu2. If you can’t get BNC 1&2 AND BNC 3&4 inputs working without any dropouts, you probably want to take it back to the dealer and have them hook the M-Scaler to their DAVE/Qutest/Hugo TT 2 to make sure the M-Scaler is working properly.


----------



## Mikey99

ecwl said:


> I don’t have Hugo M-Scaler but I do have Blu2. Since DAVE has two sets of dual BNC inputs, the first thing to try is BNC1&2 vs BNC 3&4. For example, for my DAVE, I simply cannot get BNC 1&2 to play without the dropouts whereas BNC3&4 works perfectly fine. Not sure why. Also, I definitely find that jiggling the cables can cause drop outs so that’s not unusual. That happens with my own DAVE or my dealer’s DAVE connected to my Blu2. If you can’t get BNC 1&2 AND BNC 3&4 inputs working without any dropouts, you probably want to take it back to the dealer and have them hook the M-Scaler to their DAVE/Qutest/Hugo TT 2 to make sure the M-Scaler is working properly.


That fixed it! Thanks for the advice. I wonder why this occurs, somewhat concerned that gear in this price range has a quirk like this. On to listening!


----------



## Drewligarchy (Oct 14, 2018)

I just got finished with my two day demo of the DAVE and already miss it. I didn't end up purchasing it mainly because I found it slightly fatiguing with my Stax setup (KGSSHV Carbon, 009), and because DSD wouldn't work with my Aries - which sounded better. Also my dealer wanted current full retail ($11,300). There is potential I just needed to get used to the sound signature, as the fatigue was minor (much less than with the Bricasti M1 and Auralic Vega) - but wasn't going to shell out that money unless it was perfect. It did sound fantastic with both the 009 and my LCD 4 (via V281).

The thing I appreciated most, ironically, was the tonality, the fluidity and depth. On live recordings specifically - I never experienced the "You are there" feeling like I did with the DAVE before.

After doing some reading it looks like I made the right decision: While the Dave is great - it can be had for less, and now I am reading about people using the M Scaler with the Hugo 2, Qutest and TT2 (when its out) - which some have said is superior to the standalone DAVE. Dave is better with the Blu or M Scaler from what I've read.

Basically, I'm curious not only around the truth of this - but for more specifics. Is the tonality generally the same as the DAVE with the MScaler/Blu - is there the same fluidity and same depth?

I'm thinking a good option for me might be the TT2 with M Scaler when it comes out - as It may allow me to drive the LCD 4 directly with more power. I preferred the LCD 4 through the V281 with the Dave (but I preferred Focal Clear and Audeze LCD XC through the Dave direct).

Mainly looking to see if the M Scaler in the Blu and Standalone, really takes these other devices to the level of the Dave. As DSD streaming also works with these other devices (albeit decimated) - I'd probably go with the Qutest or TT2 to find synergy.

While I loved the original Hugo and Chord2Qute, I found the original TT too dark. I know the TT2 isn't out in the wild - but looking for more than just (it's better than or equal to the standalone DAVE) - and some specifics into tonality and technicalities.

Any help is greatly appreciated. I wish the fatigue didn't occur with the DAVE and 009, but I think I can ameliorate it if given the time - and would like to know what I should try and demo with my 009 given what I've described above.

Edit: I do realize this is a sensitive subject - as people have invested a lot on the DAVE and Chord has potentially provided that quality for less (or not) - I haven't tried the systems I've mentioned. Honest opinions from those who have evaluated these is greatly appreciated.


----------



## musickid (Oct 14, 2018)

The hugo2/mscaler is more analytical and timing and timbre may be better than Dave. Dave is more transparent with more detailed resolution (20 pulse array on dave vs 10 on hugo2) and a wider/deeper soundstage than hugo2/mscaler having listened to both.


----------



## zettelsm

Drewligarchy said:


> I just got finished with my two day demo of the DAVE and already miss it. I didn't end up purchasing it mainly because I found it slightly fatiguing with my Stax setup (KGSSHV Carbon, 009), and because DSD wouldn't work with my Aries - which sounded better. Also my dealer wanted current full retail ($11,300). There is potential I just needed to get used to the sound signature, as the fatigue was minor (much less than with the Bricasti M1 and Auralic Vega) - but wasn't going to shell out that money unless it was perfect. It did sound fantastic with both the 009 and my LCD 4 (via V281).
> 
> The thing I appreciated most, ironically, was the tonality, the fluidity and depth. On live recordings specifically - I never experienced the "You are there" feeling like I did with the DAVE before.
> 
> ...



All I can do is give you my experience — 

First, with shopping DAVE and Blu MK II can be found for less than list, often significantly less. Since the Hugo M-scaler is new, it might be some time before prices start dropping for the HSM. Likewise, the TT2 when it reaches market.

As to fluidity and depth of DAVE with Blu MK II — much, much, much better. And though I never thought the DAVE by itself bright or edgy — indeed, I thought the DAVE the best DAC I’d ever heard in terms of natural, vibrant, lifelike sound — the DAVE with Blu MK II is a combination that takes digital music reproduction to a level I didn’t think possible. I’ve got a very decent analog front end and though I still spin vinyl, most of the time now I sit down and queue something up in Roon and don’t ever find myself thinking, “I wish this was available on vinyl”, let alone, “I bet this would sound better on LP”. In fact, every evening I look forward with great anticipation to sitting down and listening to music via Blu/DAVE. A year ago if you had told me I could very contentedly listen for hours at a time to digital music in my home, with never a thought about how analog was better, I’d have thought you very optimistic to say the least.

As to Blu MK II or HSM with other Chord DACs relative to DAVE alone, unfortunately I can’t help you there. No experience. I’m willing to bet that a less expensive HSM and DAC would definitely give DAVE alone a real run for the money. That is the way of the world — succeeding generations of equipment often give better performance at less, sometimes significantly less, cost. Not a sensitive issue for me at all.

Hope this helps,

Steve Z


----------



## Triode User

Drewligarchy said:


> I just got finished with my two day demo of the DAVE and already miss it. I didn't end up purchasing it mainly because I found it slightly fatiguing with my Stax setup (KGSSHV Carbon, 009), and because DSD wouldn't work with my Aries - which sounded better. Also my dealer wanted current full retail ($11,300). There is potential I just needed to get used to the sound signature, as the fatigue was minor (much less than with the Bricasti M1 and Auralic Vega) - but wasn't going to shell out that money unless it was perfect. It did sound fantastic with both the 009 and my LCD 4 (via V281).
> 
> The thing I appreciated most, ironically, was the tonality, the fluidity and depth. On live recordings specifically - I never experienced the "You are there" feeling like I did with the DAVE before.
> 
> ...



If you found Dave ‘fatiguing’ I am not sure that TT2 and MScaler will be any more to your taste. I always think of the MScaler sound as being like Dave but more so (if that makes any sense). But the only way to find out is to wait for the TT2 to be on demo and then have a listen with the MScaler.


----------



## Drewligarchy

Triode User said:


> If you found Dave ‘fatiguing’ I am not sure that TT2 and MScaler will be any more to your taste. I always think of the MScaler sound as being like Dave but more so (if that makes any sense). But the only way to find out is to wait for the TT2 to be on demo and then have a listen with the MScaler.



I only found Dave fatiguing with the 009 system. The crazy thing is that it doesn’t sound fatiguing - it just was. It sounded great. This is the same problem I’ve had with the Bricasti M1 SE and Auralic Vega with the system. And to my ears, Dave is not bright - whereas the other two could be. The only thing I could listen to the 009 with was the Yggdrasil, which I found good - I like the sound of the other DACs I mentioned better.

I THINK I’ve found my culprit. I have been using an LDR passive preamp for a couple years since I got the system. While it sounds completely transparent, I just found some figures which are indicating that I am potentially getting 5% THD with it. I have been listening to the Vega for a few hours on the 009 and no fatigue! I happened to take the passive out of the mix. Then I started searching around to figure out why. I saw that figure and I’m like - wow. Could this be what’s been causing fatigue all this time? I mean I could never stand the Vega with this setup? I’ll have to listen for a few mor nights but I am just astonished.

The amount of headaches (literally and figuratively), buying, selling and demoing DACs for years - and its all potentially because of this pre?

First, I can’t believe it wasn’t audible. But could this be the cause of my listening fatigue?


----------



## Drewligarchy

Also anyone know of a dealer where I might be able to get a Dave with some discount off the list price?


----------



## x RELIC x

Drewligarchy said:


> But could this be the cause of my listening fatigue?



Yes, it could be. While only you can determine the cause of the listening fatigue in your system - be it the transducers, the pre, or some other link in the chain - it's very likely that 5% THD from the pre would affect the sound. Distortion can do funny things from causing a warm tilt to components all the way to the other end of the spectrum which may cause fatigue or harshness. Distortion doesn't always present as recognizable distortion and many who 'clean up' their system find this out.


----------



## Triode User

x RELIC x said:


> Yes, it could be. While only you can determine the cause of the listening fatigue in your system - be it the transducers, the pre, or some other link in the chain - it's very likely that 5% THD from the pre would affect the sound. Distortion can do funny things from causing a warm tilt to components all the way to the other end of the spectrum which may cause fatigue or harshness. Distortion doesn't always present as recognizable distortion and many who 'clean up' their system find this out.



Agreed and sometimes you only realise there was a problem when you manage to get rid of it.


----------



## dac64

Drewligarchy said:


> Also anyone know of a dealer where I might be able to get a Dave with some discount off the list price?



Audiogon


----------



## GLM101

Hi,

I was looking around for high res music for my DAVE when I found this interesting site:

https://samplerateconverter.com/educational/dsd-music

It contains a nice table of different web sites offering high resolution music.

I will probably download some samplers to see how they sound on the DAVE before buying.


----------



## rgs9200m (Oct 18, 2018)

The Stax 009 can be such an acid test for overdone highs on any system that it's almost an unfair challenge. 
(Someone here who uses a modern version of the legendary Stax T2 amp with an 009 actually uses nothing but vinyl.)

By the way, although it was years ago I had one, you might consider a Playback Designs DAC or CD-Player DAC. It really keeps the digital glare and shrillness at bay. (I had the PD MPS5 cdp. I have not heard the new ones.)

(My DAVE is nice and warm-sounding with a good non-fatiguing headphone amp in front of it. And I enjoy my DSD collection very much with DAVE in DSD+ mode.)


----------



## Amberlamps

Yesterday, I was looking at some audio server videos on youtube, as I’m thinking of getting one.  But inbetween server video’s, I came across this video. It’s about cables for use on Dave mainly, but they can also be used on any device that has bnc connectors.



Once watched, I went to find out more about the cables and I came across this review of them.

https://www.pursuitperfectsystem.com/storm-reference-digital-cable-your-chord-dave-will-love-it.html

The review that they get when connected to a Dave is good.  I don’t know if anyone here has those cables, but after seeing the video and then reading the review, I’m seriously considering buying a set for myself, but I have a couple of questions first.

Does anyone here have these cables ?  If so, are they any good at limiting interference ?

If I buy a set, mine won’t be used on a dave, but they will be used on an MScaler and Hugo 2 initially, and in the very near future a Chord TT2.

Thanks.


----------



## seaice (Oct 18, 2018)

@Amberlamps: Wave cables: https://www.wavehighfidelity.com/

I believe that you can try and return the cables if you are not satisfied...


----------



## Amberlamps (Oct 19, 2018)

seaice said:


> @Amberlamps: Wave cables: https://www.wavehighfidelity.com/
> 
> I believe that you can try and return the cables if you are not satisfied...



Thanks for that, it’s good to know that if I’m not satisfied, I can ship them back. I saw a couple of their cables and they do look nice.  Nice looking and sounding cables are a must nowadays,

Thanks for that


----------



## tunes

tunes said:


> Are there any reviews yet comparing the Focal Utopia, HEKV2, HEKse and Final D8000?  The only other consideration would be the STAX SR-009 but not sure I want to introduce a tube amp into the chain when using my CHORD DAVE. M-scaler with DAVE could be a game changer regarding these comparisons though!


I forgot to turn off the Dave this past week and when I went to use it again it was extremely warm to touch. It is not in an enclosed space so there’s plenty of room for air currents to flow. How warm to touch is considered normal when the unit is in standby mode?  To most Dave owners just keep it in the standby mode when not in use for long periods of time or is it better to turn off the unit?


----------



## Mikey99

tunes said:


> I forgot to turn off the Dave this past week and when I went to use it again it was extremely warm to touch. It is not in an enclosed space so there’s plenty of room for air currents to flow. How warm to touch is considered normal when the unit is in standby mode?  To most Dave owners just keep it in the standby mode when not in use for long periods of time or is it better to turn off the unit?


Mine is certainly quite warm to the touch when left on. I am not sure what you would call “extremely”, but it is warmer than I am used to with other equipment. I have kept it on since I have had it for break-in purposes, but am debating if I should turn it off when not in use.


----------



## Triode User

Mikey99 said:


> Mine is certainly quite warm to the touch when left on. I am not sure what you would call “extremely”, but it is warmer than I am used to with other equipment. I have kept it on since I have had it for break-in purposes, but am debating if I should turn it off when not in use.



I keep my Dave on 24/7 which is what I do with all my HiFi except for my Class A power amps (on as opposed to standby). Whether or not my logic is correct I prefer to have a steady state in the circuits being on all the time rather than surges at switch on /switch off. One amplifier in our kitchen system has been continuously on for over 20 years although I did have to replace the power supply caps last year.


----------



## zettelsm

Amberlamps said:


> Yesterday, I was looking at some audio server videos on youtube, as I’m thinking of getting one.  But inbetween server video’s, I came across this video. It’s about cables for use on Dave mainly, but they can also be used on any device that has bnc connectors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have a pair of WAVE Storm Reference cables. I use them between a Chord DAVE and a Chord Blu MK II CD player/M-scaler. I’ve compared them to the OEM cables included by Chord, as well as some of the inexpensive but recommended BNC cables from the Blu MK II thread, with and without added ferrites. And in the last week I had the opportunity to compare them in my system to Wireworld Starlight 8, Gold 7 and Platinum 7 BNC digital cables, again, with and without ferrites. In all cases, including the $3000/pair Platinum Starlight 7 cables, I preferred the WAVE cables. The audible improvement, particularly over the less expensive cables is easily heard. The WAVEs do an exceptional job of removing the RF noise Rob Watts says is responsible for a brighter sound with less depth of field. Nick Bacon is great to deal with and he produces a quality product that really does do what he says it does.

Hope this helps,

Steve Z


----------



## dac64

zettelsm said:


> I have a pair of WAVE Storm Reference cables. I use them between a Chord DAVE and a Chord Blu MK II CD player/M-scaler. I’ve compared them to the OEM cables included by Chord, as well as some of the inexpensive but recommended BNC cables from the Blu MK II thread, with and without added ferrites. And in the last week I had the opportunity to compare them in my system to Wireworld Starlight 8, Gold 7 and Platinum 7 BNC digital cables, again, with and without ferrites. In all cases, including the $3000/pair Platinum Starlight 7 cables, I preferred the WAVE cables. The audible improvement, particularly over the less expensive cables is easily heard. The WAVEs do an exceptional job of removing the RF noise Rob Watts says is responsible for a brighter sound with less depth of field. Nick Bacon is great to deal with and he produces a quality product that really does do what he says it does.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Steve Z



our dear friend was just next to you!


----------



## Triode User

dac64 said:


> our dear friend was just next to you!



It's too early in the morning here for me to get that. Do you guys have a mutual friend?


----------



## Amberlamps (Oct 19, 2018)

zettelsm said:


> I have a pair of WAVE Storm Reference cables. I use them between a Chord DAVE and a Chord Blu MK II CD player/M-scaler. I’ve compared them to the OEM cables included by Chord, as well as some of the inexpensive but recommended BNC cables from the Blu MK II thread, with and without added ferrites. And in the last week I had the opportunity to compare them in my system to Wireworld Starlight 8, Gold 7 and Platinum 7 BNC digital cables, again, with and without ferrites. In all cases, including the $3000/pair Platinum Starlight 7 cables, I preferred the WAVE cables. The audible improvement, particularly over the less expensive cables is easily heard. The WAVEs do an exceptional job of removing the RF noise Rob Watts says is responsible for a brighter sound with less depth of field. Nick Bacon is great to deal with and he produces a quality product that really does do what he says it does.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Steve Z



Thats great news, as I’m thinking about buying a set and before I took the plunge, I wanted to know if the price was justifiable. You know how it is, is it real or snake oil.  But in all cases that I’ve seen/heard/read, the answer seems to be a resounding yes, they really do work, and work great, especially with a Dave.

Roughly $2000 / £1500 for a set isn’t pocket change, it’s good to hear what real users have to say about them.  I Have sent an email to Wave, but it was just a few hours ago, they were probably closed given the time difference. Hopefully I hear back from them today or it may be monday before I hear from them ?

Thanks for your post, it has helped me decide to buy a set. Before your post I was interested, but undecided on whether I should buy a set or not. But now I will definitely grab a set.

Thanks again for your help/post.

If anyone else has wave cables, can you please post your experience/opinion of them. Just to help me build a bigger picture.

It will be greatly appreaciated.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## zettelsm

dac64 said:


> our dear friend was just next to you!



???

Sorry, Must be too early for me too.

Steve Z


----------



## Drewligarchy (Oct 19, 2018)

rgs9200m said:


> The Stax 009 can be such an acid test for overdone highs on any system that it's almost an unfair challenge.
> (Someone here who uses a modern version of the legendary Stax T2 amp with an 009 actually uses nothing but vinyl.)
> 
> By the way, although it was years ago I had one, you might consider a Playback Designs DAC or CD-Player DAC. It really keeps the digital glare and shrillness at bay. (I had the PD MPS5 cdp. I have not heard the new ones.)
> ...



Yes - but if you can get the exact right synergy, I don't think there is a headphone that sounds more transparent. 007 is close but always seemed veiled to me in comparison. I love my LCD4 but it's more a fun headphone than a truly accurate one. The LCD 4 sounds like speakers, whereas the Stax sounds like windows into a live performance.

I got back my Yggdrasil 2, 24 hours ago - and it's easy listening with the 009 - but all sepia tones. I know this improves with stabilization of the new boards - as there was a significant difference with my A1. That said, I can't get the Dave out of my mind. Yes, it sounds better than real with studio recordings that sound that way - but thats how studio recordings are recorded.

Especially Steely Dan:

With Dave when I was listening to Kamakiriad by Donald Fagen, what I can't get out of my head is the spookiness of the female background vocals. I can't describe them any other way than angelic. I never heard background vocals like that before. The bass was so defined, dead centered and solid I felt like I could stand on it and peer over the edges, like riding on a surfboard through a happytown of moog synthesizers, ride cymbals and noodling guitars. It didn't have unnatural depth but most studio recordings don't. There is a crash cymbal on "Tomorrow's Girl's" which sounds dissonant on every play back format I've ever listened to. On Dave this dissonance is gone.

For you Phish-heads - you know 12/31/95 is considered not only one of their best shows - but one of their best recorded shows as it is one of the few that was recorded and mixed via multi-track. The depth was insane. Not overdone, but like I was standing in general admission as the band took the stage. The sound of the guitar on "Punch You in The Eye" had this realness to it that I have only experienced live. It wasn't hyper-real. It was completely real. A magic trick. Virtual Auditory Reality in it's truest sense.

For the Star Trek Into the Darkness score, Dave pulled apart the strings so I could hear each violin, cello, horn individually and as part of a whole. Not a hint of smearing in it's most dense passages.

I've been listening to the Vega without my LDR preamp (with the 5% THD I mentioned previously( and it's got so much more light than my Yggy2 right now, but most importantly - I am not getting listening fatigue. Vega, while not bleached, is generally considered to lean bright. I can't help but think that if I get the Dave home, use the digital pre rather than my current one - and I would get all the sounds I've been describing without the headache. I am not positive though, which makes it hard for me to just go out and drop that kind of cash.

If I knew it didn't, I'd buy it tomorrow.

For those who have heard both - Vega is brighter than Dave no? Especially in the upper mids? I didn't flip back and forth between them - but knowing this would help me buy more confidently.

I just can't get Dave out of my head, and while I have some great headphones - they sound pedestrian now that I've gotten a taste of it.

The first time I got into head-fi seriously, was when I got a great deal on a Sennheiser He60 and bought a Stax 717 and a Wadia 121. I listened to it and was just like What? This is completely new, exciting and - for lack of a better term - revelatory. Listening to Dave was like that first time.

Knowing how much a windows the Stax 009 is, imagine it with the Dave if you've ever heard it before. It's just other worldly. But will the listening fatigue creep back? I don't know.

Should I get one? I have never been so astounded by a DAC.


----------



## dac64

Triode User said:


> It's too early in the morning here for me to get that. Do you guys have a mutual friend?



I couldn't be helped because I was so touching by the kind words from your supporter!


----------



## dac64

zettelsm said:


> ???
> 
> Sorry, Must be too early for me too.
> 
> Steve Z



The father of WAVE was in this page!


----------



## dac64

Amberlamps said:


> Roughly $2000 / £1500 for a set isn’t pocket change, it’s good to hear what real users have to say about them.  I Have sent an email to Wave, but it was just a few hours ago, they were probably closed given the time difference. Hopefully I hear back from them today or it may be monday before I hear from them ?



I am going to buy HMS to pair up with my Qutest. Thinking of Wave too but the pair is costing more than my Qutest. I so wish that the maker of Wave was a blue collar worker in stead of white.


----------



## Triode User

dac64 said:


> I am going to buy HMS to pair up with my Qutest. Thinking of Wave too but the pair is costing more than my Qutest. I so wish that the maker of Wave was a blue collar worker in stead of white.



I have done a full PM to you with info that I cannot post in the thread but I wanted to put the record straight regarding your comments on the price. The WAVE STREAM Dual BNC cables for the MScaler start at £495 for a pair delivered.


----------



## dac64

Triode User said:


> I have done a full PM to you with info that I cannot post in the thread but I wanted to put the record straight regarding your comments on the price. The WAVE STREAM Dual BNC cables for the MScaler start at £495 for a pair delivered.



Great to hear that there is a much cheaper but equality effective version for the HMS. It'll attract many HMS/TT2/Hugo2/Qutest users. Btw, the Wave is very professional built, that catched my eyes.


----------



## Mikey99

I have had my DAVE for a few weeks now, and have had it on continuously. Usually it is quite warm to the touch, even when not in use.  I noticed tonight that it is running considerably cooler, almost normal. Has anyone else experienced this?


----------



## Rob Watts

It does dissipate a tad more power whilst playing back music, so cools overnight a bit. Also, the nights are getting colder...


----------



## tunes

Has anyone compared the Utopia, Hifiman HEK2, Hifiman HE 1000se and Pioneer SE Master -1 with the DAVE DRIVING THEM?


----------



## onlychild

tunes said:


> Has anyone compared the Utopia, Hifiman HEK2, Hifiman HE 1000se and Pioneer SE Master -1 with the DAVE DRIVING THEM?




I’ve had the Utopia, HE1Kv2, and now the HE1KSE (not at the same time), but all driven from my DAVE.  

The SE is turning out to be the perfect headphone when driven directly from the DAVE.  I would say it is like having the best parts of the Utopia and V2 in one.  It has the speed and ability to pull out tons of details like the Utopia but with the smoothness, wide soundstage and great bass/sub bass of v2.  It is faster than V2 and bass is more rhytmetic than v2.  Soundstage and bass better than Utopia

If I was in the market for a new headphone to run directly from the DAVE, SE should be at top of the list


----------



## TheAttorney

I've compared Utopia, HEK V2 and SE Master-1 directy driven by DAVE.
Of these, HEK V2 easily won for both SQ and comfort (but not build quality), so those are the ones I bought over a year ago. 
HEK's wide soundstage particularly benefits from DAVE's excellent cross-feed function.

However, every respondant will probably give a different order of preference to mine, so you really have to listen for yourself.

I haven't tried the HEK SE, but it looks interesting for it's higher sensitivity (and slightly better looks) over HEK V2, but I'm getting rather tired of hifiman introducing new models almost every week, so my number 1 contender to compare next against my HEK V2's with DAVE is the Meze Empyrean.


----------



## tunes

onlychild said:


> I’ve had the Utopia, HE1Kv2, and now the HE1KSE (not at the same time), but all driven from my DAVE.
> 
> The SE is turning out to be the perfect headphone when driven directly from the DAVE.  I would say it is like having the best parts of the Utopia and V2 in one.  It has the speed and ability to pull out tons of details like the Utopia but with the smoothness, wide soundstage and great bass/sub bass of v2.  It is faster than V2 and bass is more rhytmetic than v2.  Soundstage and bass better than Utopia
> 
> If I was in the market for a new headphone to run directly from the DAVE, SE should be at top of the list


Curious. 1. Does the HEK se have the same type of female jack on the drivers as the HEK V2 to use same upgrade cable?

2.  Do you have only the stock cable?

3. Are you planning to sell your Utopia? 

4. Did you sell your HEKv2 and please send me a PM what your asking price was and the condition.  Also, if you got a good deal on the se and where purchased from??


----------



## ufospls2

tunes said:


> Curious. 1. Does the HEK se have the same type of female jack on the drivers as the HEK V2 to use same upgrade cable?
> 
> 2.  Do you have only the stock cable?
> 
> ...



The HEKse actually uses 3.5mm connectors instead of the 2.5mm on the V2. Its a shame as V2 owners can't use their upgrade cables, but at the same times the 3.5mm connectors are more sturdy. Its a trade off.


----------



## seaice (Oct 25, 2018)

Has anyone tried iFi Micro iUSB3 with DAVE? I play music from a PC and after introducing the iFi into into my USB chain, I have really started to love all of my electrostats again... Very positive experience with the iFi iUSB3>DAVE combo and electrostats: more/better bass and smoother treble, more natural sound... Everything sounds calm and right again...


----------



## ecwl

So it started with this thread... After buying Chord DAVE, posters pointed out how much more transparent the headphone output is compared to what I'm hearing through the speakers. I knew my Sanders Magtech amplifier was simply not transparent enough for my speakers. Since it might take a while before Rob Watts' DX/pulse power array amp gets enough power to drive my speakers, I couldn't wait anymore and asked my dealer to bring in a Chord Etude.
The first sign that it's something special is that my dealer didn't tell me the unit arrived and kept on volunteering to burn in the Etude for me for a few days. Obviously, he just wanted to listen to it longer, despite having PS Audio BHK Signature 300 Mono amplifiers and Krell Duo 300 available. I never got those amps because they sound a little too warm to me and I prefer a more neutral amp. And when I got the Etude home, my initial reaction was identical to when I first got DAVE. I have never heard this degree of transparency, so many subtle microdynamics and microdetails in the music, the realism of the instruments and such soundstage depth in an amplifier before. Of course, the macrodynamics and transients of the music were perfectly preserved. Moreover, when a passage of music is supposed to be warm, smooth and beautiful, the Etude presents the music in the most gorgeous manner. Honestly, I was quite shocked even though I have read some of John Franks comments about the Etude before.
Of the great neutral amplifiers I've heard that some of my friends own, Benchmark AHB2 and Bryston 4B3 stood out even though I've never listened to them in my system. In my mind, Etude has them beat, in terms of transparency, micro details and smooth warm sound when appropriate. Even if I'm wrong, the fact that Chord Etude matches my Blu2/DAVE casings is super cool.
I know we are in a Head-FI forum but I know some readers of this thread also listen to speakers with their DAVE. If your amplifier preference is towards neutrality and transparency, rather than warmth, I'd strongly recommend giving Chord Etude a demo. For the first time, listening to DAVE through my speakers actually sound as if I'm listening through my headphones. Thanks to @Mojo ideas for bringing another awesome product to market.


----------



## rgs9200m

The Chord driver I use for Dave uses WASAPI. Is there a way to use ASIO? Is it an option in this driver? Thanks.


----------



## tunes

ufospls2 said:


> The HEKse actually uses 3.5mm connectors instead of the 2.5mm on the V2. Its a shame as V2 owners can't use their upgrade cables, but at the same times the 3.5mm connectors are more sturdy. Its a trade off.


Are there quality conversion plugs to go from 2.5 to 3.5 mm??


----------



## onlychild

ecwl said:


> So it started with this thread... After buying Chord DAVE, posters pointed out how much more transparent the headphone output is compared to what I'm hearing through the speakers. I knew my Sanders Magtech amplifier was simply not transparent enough for my speakers. Since it might take a while before Rob Watts' DX/pulse power array amp gets enough power to drive my speakers, I couldn't wait anymore and asked my dealer to bring in a Chord Etude.
> The first sign that it's something special is that my dealer didn't tell me the unit arrived and kept on volunteering to burn in the Etude for me for a few days. Obviously, he just wanted to listen to it longer, despite having PS Audio BHK Signature 300 Mono amplifiers and Krell Duo 300 available. I never got those amps because they sound a little too warm to me and I prefer a more neutral amp. And when I got the Etude home, my initial reaction was identical to when I first got DAVE. I have never heard this degree of transparency, so many subtle microdynamics and microdetails in the music, the realism of the instruments and such soundstage depth in an amplifier before. Of course, the macrodynamics and transients of the music were perfectly preserved. Moreover, when a passage of music is supposed to be warm, smooth and beautiful, the Etude presents the music in the most gorgeous manner. Honestly, I was quite shocked even though I have read some of John Franks comments about the Etude before.
> Of the great neutral amplifiers I've heard that some of my friends own, Benchmark AHB2 and Bryston 4B3 stood out even though I've never listened to them in my system. In my mind, Etude has them beat, in terms of transparency, micro details and smooth warm sound when appropriate. Even if I'm wrong, the fact that Chord Etude matches my Blu2/DAVE casings is super cool.
> I know we are in a Head-FI forum but I know some readers of this thread also listen to speakers with their DAVE. If your amplifier preference is towards neutrality and transparency, rather than warmth, I'd strongly recommend giving Chord Etude a demo. For the first time, listening to DAVE through my speakers actually sound as if I'm listening through my headphones. Thanks to @Mojo ideas for bringing another awesome product to market.




Do you know if you can run power hungry headphones like the Susvara or Abyss from the Etude?


----------



## STR-1

ufospls2 said:


> The HEKse actually uses 3.5mm connectors instead of the 2.5mm on the V2. Its a shame as V2 owners can't use their upgrade cables, but at the same times the 3.5mm connectors are more sturdy. Its a trade off.


My Double Helix Cables (DHC) Prion4 cable is terminated for use with my Focal Utopia but I also use this cable with my HE1000v2 using DHC ultrashort hard adapters.  These adapters are expensive but very well made.  Looking at the DHC website I see that 2.5 to 3.5 adapters can be ordered (very expensive for non-DHC customers) and I expect they can also be ordered in some form from other cable manufacturers.


----------



## Triode User

From the TT2 thread here is a little nugget posted today from the master himself comparing the TT2 to Dave and confirming the superiority of the Dave. Be wary of selling your Dave to get a TT2!! 



Rob Watts said:


> *Yes and yes; the gap has indeed been narrowed, but Dave is still leagues ahead in terms of transparency - depth and detail resolution in particular. The difference is bigger than I expected, I thought when developing TT2 it would be much closer.*


----------



## ecwl

onlychild said:


> Do you know if you can run power hungry headphones like the Susvara or Abyss from the Etude?


I don’t know. But if I were to guess, I suspect Chord Etude can drive Susvara or Abyss. This is because I’ve seen people driving their Abyss with Simaudio HA430 or their LCD2 with Bryston B60 or Benchmark AHB2. Obviously you’ll need appropriate cable/adaptor. To be safe, it’s best to see what @Mojo ideas has to say about driving headphones with Chord Etude.


----------



## miketlse (Oct 27, 2018)

ecwl said:


> I don’t know. But if I were to guess, I suspect Chord Etude can drive Susvara or Abyss. This is because I’ve seen people driving their Abyss with Simaudio HA430 or their LCD2 with Bryston B60 or Benchmark AHB2. Obviously you’ll need appropriate cable/adaptor. To be safe, it’s best to see what @Mojo ideas has to say about driving headphones with Chord Etude.


The Etude is a power amplifier, with no dedicated headphone socket(s).
The Etude user manual includes no references to headphones, only loudspeakers.
If you use it to drive headphones, you will have to connect the headphones to the sockets intended for speakers.
You would be connecting headphones that need tens/hundreds of milliWatts, to the sockets of a power amplifier that can output 150Watts.
You would have to be very careful to set the DAVE volume to nearly zero, otherwise you would quickly damage your headphones/hearing.
I agree it would be good to get some feedback from @Mojo ideas, regarding the wisdom of using the Etude to drive headphones.


----------



## ecwl

Overnight, I’ve been debating this radical thought and wondering if I should be posting this. I used to say that if you love Dave and you can afford it, getting the Blu2 or now Hugo M scaler is a complete no brainer. Now replacing an amplifier in your system is a completely different situation because of DAC, maybe preamplifier, amplifier and speaker synergy.  But for people who predominately listens to Dave using their speakers, I wonder if they should upgrade to the Chord Etude first before getting the Hugo M scaler, mainly because I think people might be shocked by their current loss of transparency from their Dave to their speakers. Obviously, because of system synergy issues, everyone should audition Chord Etude in their home first before making a purchase. Whereas I would feel comfortable recommending someone buying Hugo M scaler without an audition.


----------



## Jawed

ecwl said:


> If your amplifier preference is towards neutrality and transparency, rather than warmth, I'd strongly recommend giving Chord Etude a demo. For the first time, listening to DAVE through my speakers actually sound as if I'm listening through my headphones.


Did you try connecting your speakers to the phono outputs on DAVE? 2W is quite loud...


----------



## ecwl

Jawed said:


> Did you try connecting your speakers to the phono outputs on DAVE? 2W is quite loud...


I wanted to but I did not in the end for two reasons. I don’t have the right adaptor to do the connection. And I was concerned that my speaker impedance might go too low for Dave and obviously I don’t want to fry my Dave. One observation I would make is that the loudest I’ve set the Dave with the étude was at -14dB when I was watching captain America Winter soldier on Netflix. I think Etude’s gain is about 28-30dB so I suspect Dave may not be able to drive my speakers alone. That said, most of the time, my Dave is set between -40 to -24dB.


----------



## musickid (Oct 28, 2018)

Once the mscaler is added to tt2 however many important musical qualities become apparent that are not present in a standalone dave. Timbre, tempo and flow to name some and also instrument seperation. This makes the tt2/hms vs dave puzzle more challenging.


----------



## danish71

musickid said:


> Once the mscaler is added to tt2 however many important musical qualities become apparent that are not present in a standalone dave. Timbre, tempo and flow to name some and also instrument seperation. This makes the tt2/hms vs dave puzzle more challenging.


1. Are the listed "musical" qualities not present in a standalone Dave? I'm not sure what you mean?
2. Those qualities listed seem to be inspired from one of Rob Watts latest post over in the TT2 thread. In the same post he also expressed that some people would still prefer the standalone Dave over the HMS/TT2.


----------



## iDesign (Oct 29, 2018)

Out of curiosity, are DAVE owners that are considering purchasing an M Scaler leaning towards to the Blu Mk II or the Hugo M Scaler? It seems the Blu Mk II is moot and hard to justify now that there is a Hugo M Scaler. I wish Chord offered a standalone M Scaler that had the same Choral enclosure as the DAVE so it could be stacked or used in the Choral Ensemble stand.


----------



## simorag (Oct 28, 2018)

iDesign said:


> Out of curiosity, are DAVE owners that are considering purchasing an M Scaler leaning towards to the Blu Mk II or the Hugo M Scaler? It seems the Blu Mk II is hard to justify now that there is a Hugo M Scaler but I wish Chord offered a standalone M Scaler that had the same Choral casework as the DAVE.



I have a DAVE with the Choral stand.

I was tempted by setting up the combo with the Blu2 and another stand... A true beauty to behold IMO.

At the end I decided that I could not justify the expense, especially considering I don't listen to CDs anymore.

Also, all the discussion about the Blu2 "need" for ferrites or very expensive BNC cables scared me a bit.

My Hugo M Scaler is arriving this week, I am very excited and hope that it will sound great out of the box


----------



## danish71

simorag said:


> My Hugo M Scaler is arriving this week, I am very excited and hope that it will sound great out of the box


The first 30 seconds I didn’t detect much difference from solo Dave, but after a short while things started to happen..


----------



## jlbrach

if you listen to cd's then the blu2 is the way to go...if not the new m-scaler is the ticket


----------



## ecwl

jlbrach said:


> if you listen to cd's then the blu2 is the way to go...if not the new m-scaler is the ticket


I don’t know about that. If your current CD player or transport has bit-perfect Toslink output, I suspect hooking it up to Hugo M-Scaler would yield the same sound. But aesthetically, it wouldn’t look as nice as Blu2 by itself.


----------



## Triode User

ecwl said:


> I don’t know about that. If your current CD player or transport has bit-perfect Toslink output, I suspect hooking it up to Hugo M-Scaler would yield the same sound. But aesthetically, it wouldn’t look as nice as Blu2 by itself.



That is an interesting thought because Blu2 owners have been using CDs played on the Blu2 as the reference to judge the sound quality of other digital streams put through the Blu2 MScaler inputs. I can see where you are coming from though with an external CD player connected to HMS via optical.


----------



## jrfmd (Oct 29, 2018)

seaice said:


> Has anyone tried iFi Micro iUSB3 with DAVE? I play music from a PC and after introducing the iFi into into my USB chain, I have really started to love all of my electrostats again... Very positive experience with the iFi iUSB3>DAVE combo and electrostats: more/better bass and smoother treble, more natural sound... Everything sounds calm and right again...



based on this post, I bought one
the base is as you state but I find the treble muffled compared to taking it out of the chain

using dave, blu2,, blue hawaii ,stax 009s -- playing itunes lossless redbook files


----------



## iDesign (Oct 29, 2018)

Triode User said:


> That is an interesting thought because Blu2 owners have been using CDs played on the Blu2 as the reference to judge the sound quality of other digital streams put through the Blu2 MScaler inputs. I can see where you are coming from though with an external CD player connected to HMS via optical.


I have thousands of CDs but have either made digital copies of them or those albums are available through TIDAL. Given the simplicity of using an interface like Roon or Audirvana for searching, creating playlists, or shuffling, I have little desire to retrieve a CD and place it into the Blu Mk II. This is why I have no use for the CD player in the Blu Mk II and it sits idle. But I also must admit that I don’t want to purchase the Hugo M scaler because it does not match the DAVE and it can’t be used in (or fit under) the Choral Ensamble stand. Perhaps if I heard some compelling arguments about why the CD mechanism in the Blu Mk II is superior to ripping CDs or TIDAL (e.g. Are watermarks on streaming tracks really prevalent? Are watermarks audible? etc. etc.) then I might begin to look at the Blu Mk II in a different light— I haven’t read any arguments from Rob Watts about that. And from my point of view, the Blu Mk II is more expensive yet offers less tech and value than the Hugo M Scaler such as galvanic isolation, DX capabilies, more selectable upsampling options, more inputs/outputs etc. So a stand-alone M Scaler that either matches the DAVE or even an unbranded M Scaler in a small, universal enclosure would make a lot of sense. I even see Qutest owners saying they wished the Hugo M Scaler wasn’t their only option since it’s bigger and its Hugo branded— and I’m sure those Hugo and Qutest owners aren’t considering the Blu Mk II.


----------



## ZappaMan

iDesign said:


> I have thousands of CDs but have either made digital copies of them or those albums are available through TIDAL. Given the simplicity of using an interface like Roon or Audirvana for searching, creating playlists, or shuffling, I have little desire to retrieve a CD and place it into the Blu Mk II. This is why I have no use for the CD player in the Blu Mk II and it sits idle. But I also must admit that I don’t want to purchase the Hugo M scaler because it does not match the DAVE and it can’t be used in (or fit under) the Choral Ensamble stand. Perhaps if I heard some compelling arguments about why the CD mechanism in the Blu Mk II is superior to ripping CDs or TIDAL (e.g. Are watermarks on streaming tracks really prevalent? Are watermarks audible? etc. etc.) then I might begin to look at the Blu Mk II in a different light— I haven’t read any arguments from Rob Watts about that. And from my point of view, the Blu Mk II is more expensive yet offers less tech and value than the Hugo M Scaler such as galvanic isolation, DX capabilies, more selectable upsampling options, more inputs/outputs etc. So a stand-alone M Scaler that either matches the DAVE or even an unbranded M Scaler in a small, universal enclosure would make a lot of sense. I even see Qutest owners saying they wished the Hugo M Scaler wasn’t their only option since it’s bigger and its Hugo branded— and I’m sure those Hugo and Qutest owners aren’t considering the Blu Mk II.



the mscaler in black is very unobtrusive, hardly notice it on my desk.


----------



## AndrewOld (Oct 29, 2018)

iDesign said:


> I have thousands of CDs but have either made digital copies of them or those albums are available through TIDAL. Given the simplicity of using an interface like Roon or Audirvana for searching, creating playlists, or shuffling, I have little desire to retrieve a CD and place it into the Blu Mk II. This is why I have no use for the CD player in the Blu Mk II and it sits idle. But I also must admit that I don’t want to purchase the Hugo M scaler because it does not match the DAVE and it can’t be used in (or fit under) the Choral Ensamble stand. Perhaps if I heard some compelling arguments about why the CD mechanism in the Blu Mk II is superior to ripping CDs or TIDAL (e.g. Are watermarks on streaming tracks really prevalent? Are watermarks audible? etc. etc.) then I might begin to look at the Blu Mk II in a different light— I haven’t read any arguments from Rob Watts about that. And from my point of view, the Blu Mk II is more expensive yet offers less tech and value than the Hugo M Scaler such as galvanic isolation, DX capabilies, more selectable upsampling options, more inputs/outputs etc. So a stand-alone M Scaler that either matches the DAVE or even an unbranded M Scaler in a small, universal enclosure would make a lot of sense. I even see Qutest owners saying they wished the Hugo M Scaler wasn’t their only option since it’s bigger and its Hugo branded— and I’m sure those Hugo and Qutest owners aren’t considering the Blu Mk II.



Just get an M Scaler! I had thousands of cds too, which I dutifully ripped, and some I still listen to using the excellent J River, but I also have Qobuz and it is amazing how many of my old cd collection, (and even more recent releases) are available in Hi Res. An M Scaler saves you £4.5k on a Blu2, vast amounts on a Choral stand, and huge hundreds on high-margin cables. It's got better galvanic isolation and solved the RF issue internally. It will keep proportionately more of it's value than the Blu2.My M Scaler looks just smashing next to my DAVE. Save £6k or more and get a better solution. If you're desperate to spend the money, buy another DAVE for your bedside,.. or a TT2/M Scaler for the kitchen ..


----------



## STR-1

Does anyone know what the DAVE’s maximum power consumption is?


----------



## burbster

iDesign said:


> I have thousands of CDs but have either made digital copies of them or those albums are available through TIDAL. Given the simplicity of using an interface like Roon or Audirvana for searching, creating playlists, or shuffling, I have little desire to retrieve a CD and place it into the Blu Mk II. This is why I have no use for the CD player in the Blu Mk II and it sits idle. But I also must admit that I don’t want to purchase the Hugo M scaler because it does not match the DAVE and it can’t be used in (or fit under) the Choral Ensamble stand. Perhaps if I heard some compelling arguments about why the CD mechanism in the Blu Mk II is superior to ripping CDs or TIDAL (e.g. Are watermarks on streaming tracks really prevalent? Are watermarks audible? etc. etc.) then I might begin to look at the Blu Mk II in a different light— I haven’t read any arguments from Rob Watts about that. And from my point of view, the Blu Mk II is more expensive yet offers less tech and value than the Hugo M Scaler such as galvanic isolation, DX capabilies, more selectable upsampling options, more inputs/outputs etc. So a stand-alone M Scaler that either matches the DAVE or even an unbranded M Scaler in a small, universal enclosure would make a lot of sense. I even see Qutest owners saying they wished the Hugo M Scaler wasn’t their only option since it’s bigger and its Hugo branded— and I’m sure those Hugo and Qutest owners aren’t considering the Blu Mk II.



Regarding playing a CD versus ripped CD or Tidal. This forum had a similar debate a few weeks back. Firstly most seemed to agree that TIDAL streaming was noticeably inferior to both a CD played on the Blu MK2 and a ripped CD. When I trialled the Blu MK2 with my Dave, I spent quite a lot of time playing the CD against the ripped version of the same CD to see if I could tell a difference, I could not. However, I have spent a reasonable sum of money and put some effort in to the setup of my digital front end (Sever, switch, fibre, SSD NAS etc etc) and wonder if I would have had the same result if I was simply using a standard PC straight in to the BluMK2. I think in that scenario the CD may have been superior. (darker sounding) Anyway I opted for the MScaler and will just have to live with the Aesthetic issues!!


----------



## musickid

Those aesthetic issues what a hard life we have here lol. Luckily tt2/hms owners will not have to suffer. Stack em up.


----------



## iDesign

musickid said:


> Luckily tt2/hms owners will not have to suffer. Stack em up.


I wished DAVE owners had the same privilege.


----------



## TheAttorney

Well, I'm still aiming to stack DAVE directly on top of my HMS when it arrives - and treat the HMS as a kind of plinth, with the Black Ravioli feet in between being slightly taller than DAVE's stock feet.. 
Although I've yet to see how that will look in practice.


----------



## paul2qute

Can't believe how gorgeous the Dave and blu 2 is in the flesh, far nicer than the hugo TT 2 and M scaler, they look plastic in comparison, don't get me wrong I've bought the hugo TT 2 but Dave and blu 2 is gorgeous, I would never swap Dave  and blu 2 for Hugo TT 2 and M scaler


----------



## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> Well, I'm still aiming to stack DAVE directly on top of my HMS when it arrives - and treat the HMS as a kind of plinth, with the Black Ravioli feet in between being slightly taller than DAVE's stock feet..
> Although I've yet to see how that will look in practice.



I have tried that and now just have them side by side on a table which looks great.


----------



## Mikey99

paul2qute said:


> Can't believe how gorgeous the Dave and blu 2 is in the flesh, far nicer than the hugo TT 2 and M scaler, they look plastic in comparison, don't get me wrong I've bought the hugo TT 2 but Dave and blu 2 is gorgeous, I would never swap Dave  and blu 2 for Hugo TT 2 and M scaler


I agree, both are solid and well finished, but I prefer the finish of the Dave, and the design. I am not sure how I would characterize it, maybe a throwback to early 20 th century industrial design.


----------



## paul2qute (Oct 30, 2018)

Mikey99 said:


> I agree, both are solid and well finished, but I prefer the finish of the Dave, and the design. I am not sure how I would characterize it, maybe a throwback to early 20 th century industrial design.


It's pure muscle mate, I seen them next to massive pmc speakers and trust me the speakers were terrified.I reckon it takes a crane to put each Bolt in place


----------



## Mikey99

paul2qute said:


> It's pure muscle mate, I seen them next to massive pmc speakers and trust me the speakers were terrified


There is a video out there of an older model DAC of the same design being run over by a tank.


----------



## paul2qute

Mikey99 said:


> There is a video out there of an older model DAC of the same design being run over by a tank.



That was a Hugo and they used a remote control tank mate don't be fooled Mrs stood all over mine and it never worked after that, hence why she an ex and buried 6 feet under


----------



## Mikey99

TheAttorney said:


> Well, I'm still aiming to stack DAVE directly on top of my HMS when it arrives - and treat the HMS as a kind of plinth, with the Black Ravioli feet in between being slightly taller than DAVE's stock feet..
> Although I've yet to see how that will look in practice.


Here you go, I gave it a try.  Looks a bit dodgy ...


----------



## Triode User

Mikey99 said:


> Here you go, I gave it a try.  Looks a bit dodgy ...



Thats about where I got to and thought that the side by side was much better.


----------



## iDesign (Oct 30, 2018)

paul2qute said:


> Can't believe how gorgeous the Dave and blu 2 is in the flesh, far nicer than the hugo TT 2 and M scaler, they look plastic in comparison, don't get me wrong I've bought the hugo TT 2 but Dave and blu 2 is gorgeous, I would never swap Dave  and blu 2 for Hugo TT 2 and M scaler





Mikey99 said:


> I agree, both are solid and well finished, but I prefer the finish of the Dave, and the design. I am not sure how I would characterize it, maybe a throwback to early 20 th century industrial design.





Mikey99 said:


> Here you go, I gave it a try.  Looks a bit dodgy ...


Completely agree. A standalone M Scaler in the Choral casework would be perfect and seems like such a painfully obvious thing for Chord to sell. The picture of the DAVE and Hugo M Scaler above leaves a lot to be desired.


----------



## paul2qute

Mikey99 said:


> Here you go, I gave it a try.  Looks a bit dodgy ...


Lol how ridiculous is that


----------



## paul2qute

Can't believe the money you lot spend on hi-fi yet you wanna stack one on top of the other, too much money with no commonsense surely


----------



## x RELIC x

Mikey99 said:


> Here you go, I gave it a try.  Looks a bit dodgy ...



Use the DAVE stand with the taller legs and it wouldn’t look too bad, IMO.


----------



## paul2qute (Oct 30, 2018)

x RELIC x said:


> Use the DAVE stand with the taller legs and it wouldn’t look too bad, IMO.


Why use the Dave stand? Or blu 2 stand same thing, trust me I seen it in the flesh and it ain't worth the money, the chord salesman I spoke to said he doesn't want to make the products too expensive because it's not what chord  are about but totally rips the customer off with the stand, also it's angled? Spent my life using a spirit level to get the best sound????I'll be honest the sales manager from Chord was pleasant enough but I don't know why he was there at Hifi lounge, saying to Rob watts you got  ten minutes left?Travelled for nearly 4 hours to see my idol for the chord salesman to try and rush his presentation, proper wound me up


----------



## Triode User

iDesign said:


> Completely agree. A standalone M Scaler in the Choral casework would be perfect and seems like such a painfully obvious thing for Chord to sell. The picture of the DAVE and Hugo M Scaler above leaves a lot to be desired.



But you might as well ask for a Qutest in Choral casework. The HMS is in the Hugo TT range. An MScaler in Choral casework might be nearer to Blu2 cost because it would have an onboard power supply as well as the more costly case. I would rather put up with the disparity in design.


----------



## paul2qute (Oct 30, 2018)

Triode User said:


> But you might as well ask for a Qutest in Choral casework. The HMS is in the Hugo TT range. An MScaler in Choral casework might be nearer to Blu2 cost because it would have an onboard power supply as well as the more costly case. I would rather put up with the disparity in design.


Triode are you the one that swapped your blu 2 for m scaler? If you did then you got too much money and to much time to play with.Total madness.If that wasn't you I apologise


----------



## Mikey99

x RELIC x said:


> Use the DAVE stand with the taller legs and it wouldn’t look too bad, IMO.


Yes, I think would look good. But I have a hard time justifying spending that kind of money on the stand. Mind you, I think I passed the stupid level of spending on this stuff a while back.


----------



## paul2qute (Oct 30, 2018)

Mikey99 said:


> Yes, I think would look good. But I have a hard time justifying spending that kind of money on the stand. Mind you, I think I passed the stupid level of spending on this stuff a while back.


Loads of great stands out there, don't forget, chord don't make the best of everything and that includes stands, please don't be naive.I'm sure if Chord brought out an umbrella 75% of ppl in here would buy it because the rain dropping on the fabric sounds more realistic


----------



## Triode User

paul2qute said:


> Triode are you the one that swapped your blu 2 for m scaler? If you did then you got too much money and to much time to play with.Total madness.If that wasn't you I apologise



No, I have not swopped my Blu2. I rate it too much.


----------



## paul2qute

Triode User said:


> No, I have not swopped my Blu2. I rate it too much.


Thank god


----------



## AndrewOld

Side by side is fine, or one  above the other in a rack, and arguable not too close - remember the finishes are quite different so a fussy person wouldn’t want that emphasised by close positioning,


----------



## x RELIC x (Oct 30, 2018)

paul2qute said:


> Why use the Dave stand? Or blu 2 stand same thing, trust me I seen it in the flesh and it ain't worth the money, the chord salesman I spoke to said he doesn't want to make the products too expensive because it's not what chord  are about but totally rips the customer off with the stand, also it's angled? Spent my life using a spirit level to get the best sound????I'll be honest the sales manager from Chord was pleasant enough but I don't know why he was there at Hifi lounge, saying to Rob watts you got  ten minutes left?Travelled for nearly 4 hours to see my idol for the chord salesman to try and rush his presentation, proper wound me up



Ooooh I’ve seen it in the flesh as well (LOL!), I bought the stand and I love the way it looks, nothing more to me. Mind you it has the short feet so there’s no way anything would fit beneath. I don’t feel the need to justify the purchase as it was within my means. I certainly don’t feel others need it and wouldn’t recommend it as a necessity for sound quality, but if people just aren’t happy with leaving the M scaler sitting next to the DAVE, and can afford the stand with longer legs, again, IMO, it may look nice. Obviously we have different opinions and that should be fine.

Edit: My gallery link below for those that like the stand, for those that don’t then look away:

https://www.head-fi.org/gallery/album/chord-dave.1087649/


----------



## Jawed

ecwl said:


> I wanted to but I did not in the end for two reasons. I don’t have the right adaptor to do the connection. And I was concerned that my speaker impedance might go too low for Dave and obviously I don’t want to fry my Dave. One observation I would make is that the loudest I’ve set the Dave with the étude was at -14dB when I was watching captain America Winter soldier on Netflix. I think Etude’s gain is about 28-30dB so I suspect Dave may not be able to drive my speakers alone. That said, most of the time, my Dave is set between -40 to -24dB.


I got an electronics/repair shop to solder phono plugs onto two 3m long Chord Clearway speaker cables to feed my speakers. The wires inside the speaker cable are not very thick (14 AWG, 1.6mm diameter), so are practical to use with phono plugs  The speakers are 6 ohm rated, 91dB/W at 1m:

https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/q3000i-range-q3050i-floorstanding-speaker.html

placed within 2m of my listening position and the result is surprisingly loud. The room is just over 14 by 12 feet (about 4.1 x 3.7m) but the setup is effectively near-field. Volume on DAVE varies from -22 to +3, with -22 definitely a more casual listening level. There's about 15dB variation in the "loudness" of albums and DAVE goes to +19 to cater for the quiet albums such as orchestral or jazz. I've not used more than +3 so far for quiet recordings and I listen to "normally" loud recordings between about -16 and -10dB.

The result is a monstrously large soundstage filled with distractingly real musicians, with a sound that's pure, fast and impressively dynamic. I haven't found anything, yet, that's "too difficult" for this setup. It has a lovely calmness, the feeling that the recording is free of both the room and the speakers, a sound that I can listen to for hours and hours. The life size musicians and the walkthrough soundstage create a really strong connection to the music, as the sounds of instruments have a commanding identity in space and the interplay among the musicians feels quite literal. This communication is much more direct than when listening with my headphones, a real bonus that I wasn't expecting from speakers.

I'm addicted.

The near-field setup I'm using is described here:

http://www.magicgardenmastering.com/SpeakerSetUp.pdf

though when I first read about this technique I thought it was ludicrous. But I tried it anyway and was gobsmacked. The incredible thing here is the midrange and treble are completely free of the room. The rule about 5ms between the direct sound from the speaker and any reflected sound from the walls near the speakers really works. Despite the room having a "bathroom" flutter echo as the walls are bare (though the floor is carpeted), there's no hint of any sound reflected off the walls, just what comes out of the soundstage. It's the true feeling of being transported to the place the recording was made.

Placing the speakers like this in the middle of the room does require that they have good bass extension, although a listening position about 1 foot from the wall behind me does add some reinforcement to the bass. It's interesting that when I put my listening room dimensions into this site:

http://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators/loudspeakers.html

the very best position for bass smoothness and extension matches the setup guide! I have spent hours playing with listening position and then moving the speakers around, but I can't find a better listening position than 1 foot from the centre of the long wall. The bright green position for the speakers is then really obvious, just in front of the centre line across the width of the room, spaced far apart to produce music on a lifelike scale. It's amazing.

When I try a setup in the calculator with the speakers playing down the longest dimension there is no listening position that produces bass that's reasonably smooth with good extension. And on top of that, the side walls end up much closer to the speakers which will spoil the soundstage. Generally speaking, listening down the length of a room breaks the 5ms rule unless you make a near-field arrangement.

These speakers are a temporary arrangement while I decide what I want to do with speakers and listening room. Driving them with DAVE is so wonderful, it has made the next step more confusing, not less...

Do I add Etude? What about some active ATC speakers?

Now playing: Rosie Thomas - Farewell


----------



## maxh22

x RELIC x said:


> Ooooh I’ve seen it in the flesh as well (LOL!), I bought the stand and I love the way it looks, nothing more to me. Mind you it has the short feet so there’s no way anything would fit beneath. I don’t feel the need to justify the purchase as it was within my means. I certainly don’t feel others need it and wouldn’t recommend it as a necessity for sound quality, but if people just aren’t happy with leaving the M scaler sitting next to the DAVE, and can afford the stand with longer legs, again, IMO, it may look nice. Obviously we have different opinions and that should be fine.
> 
> Edit: My gallery link below for those that like the stand, for those that don’t then look away:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/gallery/album/chord-dave.1087649/



Love the photos, what camera did you take it on?

The Dave looks more epic with the stand imho.


----------



## ecwl

Jawed said:


> https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/q3000i-range-q3050i-floorstanding-speaker.html
> These speakers are a temporary arrangement while I decide what I want to do with speakers and listening room. Driving them with DAVE is so wonderful, it has made the next step more confusing, not less...
> 
> Do I add Etude? What about some active ATC speakers?


I always think of Hi-Fi as a compromise. I still dream of how much more transparent the high-powered DX amps will be compared to the Etude a few years from now. But practically speaking, getting a Chord Etude demo would answer your question for now. As for active speakers, you'll just be pairing DAVE with less transparent amplifiers compared to Etude but there are obviously other sonic advantages. At some point, we just need to go back to listening to the music.


----------



## x RELIC x

maxh22 said:


> Love the photos, what camera did you take it on?
> 
> The Dave looks more epic with the stand imho.



Thanks! It was mostly a Canon 7d with a couple iPhone pics, but I've since moved on to the 5d mkIV and some crazy L glass. Audio and photography are two expensive hobbies but I don't know which one brings me more joy...


----------



## Mikey99

x RELIC x said:


> Ooooh I’ve seen it in the flesh as well (LOL!), I bought the stand and I love the way it looks, nothing more to me. Mind you it has the short feet so there’s no way anything would fit beneath. I don’t feel the need to justify the purchase as it was within my means. I certainly don’t feel others need it and wouldn’t recommend it as a necessity for sound quality, but if people just aren’t happy with leaving the M scaler sitting next to the DAVE, and can afford the stand with longer legs, again, IMO, it may look nice. Obviously we have different opinions and that should be fine.
> 
> Edit: My gallery link below for those that like the stand, for those that don’t then look away:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/gallery/album/chord-dave.1087649/


Great photos! Tempted ... damn!


----------



## Triode User (Oct 31, 2018)

Jawed said:


> Do I add Etude? What about some active ATC speakers?



I am inclined to think that the Etude will be pretty amazing but I have heard a friends ATC SCM40A active speakers and they are stunning compared to the passive version of the same speaker that he used to have. Had you got as far as thinking about which active ATC might catch your eye?


----------



## simorag

iDesign said:


> Completely agree. A standalone M Scaler in the Choral casework would be perfect and seems like such a painfully obvious thing for Chord to sell. The picture of the DAVE and Hugo M Scaler above leaves a lot to be desired.



I love how my DAVE looks on the Choral Ensemble stand, and it remains the star of the show keeping the top shelf on my rack 

I was not sure how to integrate the M Scaler aesthetics and form factor with the DAVE in my setup, so I took a different route. I bought a black M Scaler so that it fits both in shape / size and color my XI Audio gear, in a separate shelf of the rack.

I totally agree that a much better option would have been a Choral casework stack, however the Choral Ensemble stand costing more than 50% of the M Scaler would have been hard to swallow for me anyway.


----------



## Mojo ideas (Oct 31, 2018)

Where’s that soap box!
Please let me try to explain the Ensemble stands  are expensive because of several factors firstly each single piece consists of four precision turned solid aircraft grade Anodised aluminium or copper nickel plated ....  ( aluminum... USA) legs the base is machined from a solid block of anodised aluminium 35mm thick 300mm x 400mm this work is very expensive in its own right being machined of a five axis milling marchine. Then add the assembly packing and world wide distribution  with the marketing that goes with the business and finally then add the not inconsiderable cost of retail which in its merry way adds about fifty percent to the price  all in all we have to make the product to cover all the additional hidden costs too. I’m sure now you will perhaps understand, when I say that we Chord make virtually nothing on those beautifully crafted stands.  We make them because as a combined system it looks so damned good. We have had those penny pinching sentiment thrown at us even by our distributors so we have said go ahead use local machine shops and get some cheaper quotes. One distributor did try but honestly he soon agreed with me that his local efforts looked a like total waste of aluminium. Therefore purchaser  feel safe in the knowledge that yes they are expensive but the are more than worth it!


----------



## Mikey99

simorag said:


> I love how my DAVE looks on the Choral Ensemble stand, and it remains the star of the show keeping the top shelf on my rack
> 
> I was not sure how to integrate the M Scaler aesthetics and form factor with the DAVE in my setup, so I took a different route. I bought a black M Scaler so that it fits both in shape / size and color my XI Audio gear, in a separate shelf of the rack.
> 
> I totally agree that a much better option would have been a Choral casework stack, however the Choral Ensemble stand costing more than 50% of the M Scaler would have been hard to swallow for me anyway.


I have the same equipment, but M-scaler in silver. I did notice it stacks nicely with the XI Audio gear. In retrospect maybe I should have ordered in black.


----------



## TheAttorney (Oct 31, 2018)

paul2qute said:


> Can't believe the money you lot spend on hi-fi yet you wanna stack one on top of the other, too much money with no commonsense surely



You should realise that 99% of the world's population think that *everyone* on this forum has too much money with no common sense .
So now we are just talking about different levels of the same madness.

Mikee99's photo shows that DAVE/HMS stacked in that way is not a good look - and I agree.
But I have other constraints below that still give me a glimmer of hope that stacking will be an acceptable compromise, until I can think of something better:

As part of my downsizing exercise, my headphones-only stack is carefully positioned in a compact rack in a fairly tight corner slot. There is no room to put items alongside each other.
Of course, I could move everthing to a different room and buy a larger rack, but I don't want a  small and mostly function-less black box dictate to me how I must arrange my home and lifestyle, and I don't want to have another WAF-style discussion.
I could put the HMS round the back on a different shelf, but that impacts other things such as cable routing.

So I'm hoping that my all-black DAVE/HMS, positioned level at the front will look more accetable in their between-shelf location (I won't use the HMS buttons after setup, and my Black Ravioli feet should just miss the HMS buttons).
One of the advantages of black hifi is that you can arrange it to be very inobtrusive to the casual non-audiophile observer.
FWIW, I don't at all care for the Chord stands - both for aesthetics and space usage - I probably wouldn't use them even they were free. Edit: I'm sure they're great if you want to "big up" your Chord units, but I like mine as compact as possible.

So yes, I may well be completely nuts, but I don't think that has much to do about wanting to stack my DAVE and HMS together!


----------



## innocentblood

If anybody needs a cheaper alternative to the choral stands, you can consider this:

https://www.amazon.com/SAMDI-Deskto...srs=8331134011&ie=UTF8&qid=1540995859&sr=8-35

I’m currently using this with my Blu DAVE setup.


----------



## AndrewOld

There are also loads of glass/chrome monitor stands that could do the job for not much money ..

https://www.amazon.com/TAVR-Compute...=8-1-spons&keywords=glass+monitor+stand&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07FDY9LS...&pd_rd_r=1d08dc7f-dd1d-11e8-b4a9-0bb834865fb9


----------



## ray-dude

innocentblood said:


> If anybody needs a cheaper alternative to the choral stands, you can consider this:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/SAMDI-Deskto...srs=8331134011&ie=UTF8&qid=1540995859&sr=8-35
> 
> I’m currently using this with my Blu DAVE setup.



I've used this with BluDAVE:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G5ZJIRY

Works well in a compact/space constrained setup


----------



## rgs9200m

Yep, some sort of monitor stand should do. There are lots of them of all shapes and sizes on Amazon.


----------



## paul2qute

Phoned up today about my black hugo TT 2 and they are delayed until end of November because of the label on the front being faulty, I said I'll have a silver one instead, who cares what colour it is, if it's pink I'll still take it, I need to phone him tomorrow morning, he sorting out the pre orders for the silver ones but he said he is 99% sure he will have a spare one for me,hopefully have it Friday, only if my luck changes though


----------



## zettelsm

rgs9200m said:


> Yep, some sort of monitor stand should do. There are lots of them of all shapes and sizes on Amazon.



Yet another Amazon-sourced alternative that is working well for me:


----------



## paul2qute

zettelsm said:


> Yet another Amazon-sourced alternative that is working well for me:


That looks gorgeous mate, love the power cables


----------



## maxh22

Those BNC cables sure look Wavy


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## iDesign (Oct 31, 2018)

zettelsm said:


> Yet another Amazon-sourced alternative that is working well for me:


The DAVE sure looks better alongside the M Scaler when it matches. Every solution I’ve seen with the Hugo M Scaler below the DAVE or alongside of the DAVE just doesn’t look good and cluttered. I wish Chord would offer a standalone M Scaler in the Choral enclosure, even if it was a limited run of units. My dealer feels the same way because they can’t sell their black Blu Mk II even at a massive discount. No one wants it but they said they could easily sell a standalone at a lower price.


----------



## Jawed

ecwl said:


> I always think of Hi-Fi as a compromise. I still dream of how much more transparent the high-powered DX amps will be compared to the Etude a few years from now. But practically speaking, getting a Chord Etude demo would answer your question for now. As for active speakers, you'll just be pairing DAVE with less transparent amplifiers compared to Etude but there are obviously other sonic advantages. At some point, we just need to go back to listening to the music.


Yes, my plans to arrange dems and set stuff up have come to a grinding halt because of the music, hahaha.

I hope more people try this room arrangement. It's old, but rarely discussed as far as I can tell. Though you do need speakers that produce decent bass away from a wall.



Triode User said:


> I am inclined to think that the Etude will be pretty amazing but I have heard a friends ATC SCM40A active speakers and they are stunning compared to the passive version of the same speaker that he used to have. Had you got as far as thinking about which active ATC might catch your eye?


50ASLT or 150ASLT. 50ASLT is slightly more practical (emphasis on "slightly") since they both take a lot of space in a middle of the room type of arrangement. Weights: 53 versus 77Kg, yeah I'm not moving either of them very far on my own!

I've satisfied myself that a "middle of the room" speaker setup like I'm using produces the least bass problems, so the bigger speaker is just for bass extension, since the mid and treble drivers are the same.

Many speakers don't work close up, but listening to the ATCs at 2m or less is very commonly done, so there's no risk there.


----------



## AndrewOld

Jawed said:


> Yes, my plans to arrange dems and set stuff up have come to a grinding halt because of the music, hahaha.
> 
> I hope more people try this room arrangement. It's old, but rarely discussed as far as I can tell. Though you do need speakers that produce decent bass away from a wall.
> 
> ...



HMS + DAVE + ATC SCM50 ASLTs is an excellent system. Just happen to be listening to mine right now! Go for the 150s if you want the extra bass and your room, bank balance and back can take it.


----------



## ZappaMan

Mojo ideas said:


> Where’s that soap box!
> Please let me try to explain the Ensemble stands  are expensive because of several factors firstly each single piece consists of four precision turned solid aircraft grade Anodised aluminium or copper nickel plated ....  ( aluminum... USA) legs the base is machined from a solid block of anodised aluminium 35mm thick 300mm x 400mm this work is very expensive in its own right being machined of a five axis milling marchine. Then add the assembly packing and world wide distribution  with the marketing that goes with the business and finally then add the not inconsiderable cost of retail which in its merry way adds about fifty percent to the price  all in all we have to make the product to cover all the additional hidden costs too. I’m sure now you will perhaps understand, when I say that we Chord make virtually nothing on those beautifully crafted stands.  We make them because as a combined system it looks so damned good. We have had those penny pinching sentiment thrown at us even by our distributors so we have said go ahead use local machine shops and get some cheaper quotes. One distributor did try but honestly he soon agreed with me that his local efforts looked a like total waste of aluminium. Therefore purchaser  feel safe in the knowledge that yes they are expensive but the are more than worth it!


It’s a pity you can’t sell simpler items on a web shop of your own and cut the distributor and they’re 50% out. They’re not adding a lot of value in this case.


----------



## ray-dude

ZappaMan said:


> It’s a pity you can’t sell simpler items on a web shop of your own and cut the distributor and they’re 50% out. They’re not adding a lot of value in this case.



+100

With products ranging from the Mojo to DAVE to stands, crazy hard to efficiently leverage a common distribution model. 

More generally I’d love to buy direct and send more margin direct to Chord while spending less. 

When I do work through a dealer to demo/audition stuff, I buy through them (I appreciate the value they bring). However, I’ve bought Mojo/DAVE/Blu2/Hugo2/HMS all unheard/undemoed (one led to the next), with my support coming from this community.  >10 were purchased by friends after hearing mine.  Rob and John are remarkably well engaged and supportive, with an amazing direct relationship with the community.   Community is first rate (to say the least)

Paying that sort of premium to someone to order something from a distributor who gets paid a premium to order something from Chord seems like a win-win waiting to happen.  Low touch accessories and parts could be a great way to dip a toe in the direct waters.


----------



## ZappaMan

I will accept freebies for this idea.


----------



## ubs28 (Nov 1, 2018)

Never realized how bad the Chord Dave is untill I tried it with the Mscalar.

And the funny thing is, when I compared the Chord Dave against way more expensive DAC’s, it did not sound bad at all (which is why I got the Dave as it was amazing for the price that you pay)

So now I am waiting for my Mscalar to arrive after playing with it. Pairs amazingly well with the Focal Utopia.


----------



## Crgreen

ubs28 said:


> Never realized how bad the Chord Dave is untill I tried it with the Mscalar.
> 
> And the funny thing is, when I compared the Chord Dave against way more expensive DAC’s, it did not sound bad at all (which is why I got the Dave as it was amazing for the price that you pay)
> 
> So now I am waiting for my Mscalar to arrive after playing with it. Pairs amazingly well with the Focal Utopia.



The Dave doesn’t sound bad, nor is it “broken”. That’s just Hi-Fi hyperbole.


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> HMS + DAVE + ATC SCM50 ASLTs is an excellent system. Just happen to be listening to mine right now! Go for the 150s if you want the extra bass and your room, bank balance and back can take it.



In the last hour I have bought and paid for a pair of SCM150ASL second hand. The room can take them and the second hand bit means that the bank balance is not badly dented but I cannot collect them until next week  . . . . . . .


----------



## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> In the last hour I have bought and paid for a pair of SCM150ASL second hand. The room can take them and the second hand bit means that the bank balance is not badly dented but I cannot collect them until next week  . . . . . . .



Excellent! There’s things that active speakers do easily that passive speakers can’t dream about, and there’s things the ATC midrange unit does in particular that are very, very special. A suggestion .. you might want to make sure you listen more or less on axis, and with the midrange unit slightly above ear level - the supplied stands are a bit low for most normal people/seats.  Have yours got the new tweeters?  ATC products hold their value pretty well, and ATC will service and upgrade them pretty much indefinitely so the cost of ownership over a long period is actually pretty reasonable, despite the initial hit to the bank balance. Anyway enjoy your music, you will be overwhelmed I suspect.


----------



## Crgreen

Triode User said:


> In the last hour I have bought and paid for a pair of SCM150ASL second hand. The room can take them and the second hand bit means that the bank balance is not badly dented but I cannot collect them until next week  . . . . . . .



How do they sound in comparison to your Pass/Spendor combo (I assume you listened before buying)?


----------



## Triode User (Nov 1, 2018)

AndrewOld said:


> Excellent! There’s things that active speakers do easily that passive speakers can’t dream about, and there’s things the ATC midrange unit does in particular that are very, very special. A suggestion .. you might want to make sure you listen more or less on axis, and with the midrange unit slightly above ear level - the supplied stands are a bit low for most normal people/seats.  Have yours got the new tweeters?  ATC products hold their value pretty well, and ATC will service and upgrade them pretty much indefinitely so the cost of ownership over a long period is actually pretty reasonable, despite the initial hit to the bank balance. Anyway enjoy your music, you will be overwhelmed I suspect.



Thanks. They have the old tweeters but the factory have given me a quote for upgrading to the new tweeters and checking over and calibrating the amps. The amps are the current spec ones. My speakers come with factory made matching veneer solid stands similar in a sort of way to the current Anniversary ones, ie with the metal band between the speaker and the base. I was very very happy with my spendors/pass labs but these do more and with a reduced box count.


----------



## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> Thanks. They have the old tweeters but the factory have given me a quote for upgrading to the new tweeters and checking over and calibrating the amps. The amps are the current spec ones. My speakers come with factory made matching veneer solid stands similar in a sort of way to the current Anniversary ones, ie with the metal band between the speaker and the bass. I was very very happy with my spendors/pass labs but these do more and with a reduced box count.



Cool. You could even ask them for a quote for the Anniversary amp packs, for when your bank balance recovers...


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> Cool. You could even ask them for a quote for the Anniversary amp packs, for when your bank balance recovers...



I could but I won't because I have seen the list price of those amp packs! (P6 £24k inc cable pack)


----------



## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> I could but I won't because I have seen the list price of those amp packs! (P6 £24k inc cable pack)



Those are the external ones .. I was meaning the ones they can build into the speakers. My ASL50Ts are the standard towers, but with the anniversary amp packs inside - they didn’t boost the price that much. Now I realise you’ve not got towers .. so I have been talking nonsense. Sorry. If enough of us get ATCs we can push Chord into making amps and DACs and digital crossovers to drive them .. that would be fun. But unlikely alas. Just as well since it would be monstrously expensive.


----------



## Antiquarian

Triode User said:


> In the last hour I have bought and paid for a pair of SCM150ASL second hand. The room can take them and the second hand bit means that the bank balance is not badly dented but I cannot collect them until next week  . . . . . . .


Very nice too.  We built a home brew around ATC drive units some years ago.  Still a very nice speaker but not as good as our current WBVs.  The mid range driver is in a class of its own but very narrow bandwidth so difficult to match in a passive system which is why the active speakers are so much better.


----------



## miketlse

Antiquarian said:


> Very nice too.  We built a home brew around ATC drive units some years ago.  Still a very nice speaker but not as good as our current WBVs.  The mid range driver is in a class of its own but very narrow bandwidth so difficult to match in a passive system which is why the active speakers are so much better.


Something like this? https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mul...ilding-atc-scm150aslt-style-loudspeakers.html


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## Antiquarian (Nov 1, 2018)

miketlse said:


> Something like this? https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mul...ilding-atc-scm150aslt-style-loudspeakers.html


No, like this:


----------



## Triode User

I apologise to fellow Dave owners for my diversion into ATC. I will post piccies of mine when I get home with them on Tuesday.


----------



## miketlse

Antiquarian said:


> No, like this:


Nice work. Looks like solid wood, with no sign of MDF.


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## Antiquarian

miketlse said:


> Nice work. Looks like solid wood, with no sign of MDF.


Apologies to fellow DAVE owners as this is very off topic.  The bass cabinet is veneered MDF but the mid & top are detachable and solid American Black Walnut.  I really enjoyed making those!


----------



## miketlse

Triode User said:


> I apologise to fellow Dave owners for my diversion into ATC. I will post piccies of mine when I get home with them on Tuesday.


No need to apologise.
Much of the discussion on Chord threads, revolves around how the Chord equipment fits into an overall AV system, and what sources, cables, power supplies, headphones, loudspeakers, produce the best overall synergy.
This is all interesting information, for anyone considering demoing/buying Chord equipment.


----------



## Triode User

miketlse said:


> No need to apologise.
> Much of the discussion on Chord threads, revolves around how the Chord equipment fits into an overall AV system, and what sources, cables, power supplies, headphones, loudspeakers, produce the best overall synergy.
> This is all interesting information, for anyone considering demoing/buying Chord equipment.



Don't worry, there will be an update on Tuesday! I am driving two hours in my 7.5 ton horse lorry to collect them.


----------



## jacc

I am also interested in your feedback if your music first preamp is helping or not. I heard preamp will improve the soundstage and dynamic even with active speakers. Thanks.


----------



## Triode User

jacc said:


> I am also interested in your feedback if your music first preamp is helping or not. I heard preamp will improve the soundstage and dynamic even with active speakers. Thanks.



I tested the ATC 150 actives with Dave going direct into them and prefer that. My friend with ATC SCM40 actives does not have a Chord DAC (he has an Arcam CD player with ringdac) and so far my MFA passive preamp is producing the best sound out of his speakers. He has tried various active preamps including the ATC preamp (the better one, I cant remember it's name) and the MFA was miles better, firmer bass, sweeter treble, nicer mids. Also I took my Dave round to his house and that going direct into his ATC SCM40 actives was better still. So, yes, the preamp does make a big difference with the actives.


----------



## AndrewOld (Nov 2, 2018)

jacc said:


> I am also interested in your feedback if your music first preamp is helping or not. I heard preamp will improve the soundstage and dynamic even with active speakers. Thanks.



When I had ATC SCM100 ASLs, I also had the top ATC preamp, the SCA2 which I used with a CD player. It is a beautiful thing. I later got a Benchmark DAC and it sounded better going straight into my speakers, so I sold the preamp. Unless there are impedance matching issues,   it is very difficult to understand how putting a preamp between a DAVE and a pair of active speakers could possibly improve the DAVE.


----------



## Jawed

AndrewOld said:


> HMS + DAVE + ATC SCM50 ASLTs is an excellent system. Just happen to be listening to mine right now! Go for the 150s if you want the extra bass and your room, bank balance and back can take it.









How to resist?...


----------



## jscmd2000

I was hoping to get some advice from someone more experienced.
Currently, I have the Dave connected to Pass Labs HPA-1 to drive the Susvara.  I have the GS-X Mk2 coming in couple of days and was wondering if I should connect it straight to the dave via balanced xls output and take out the HPA-1 or keep the HPA-1 as preamp and connect it to the GS-X via single ended output?  I am sure I will want to try both ways, but is there an obvious/correct answer on what to do or not to do?


----------



## paul2qute

Triode User said:


> In the last hour I have bought and paid for a pair of SCM150ASL second hand. The room can take them and the second hand bit means that the bank balance is not badly dented but I cannot collect them until next week  . . . . . . .


Never heard of them mate ,are they good speakers


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## AndrewOld (Nov 3, 2018)

paul2qute said:


> Never heard of them mate ,are they good speakers



You might never have heard of ATC, but I can pretty much guarantee you will have listened to a lot of music mastered or monitored through ATCs.  Not many hi-fi companies have such a colossal professional reputation, presence or history. And yes, their speakers are good. They do a lot of active speakers .. perfect to pop on the end of your TT2.

http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/


----------



## Triode User

paul2qute said:


> Never heard of them mate ,are they good speakers



I think the ATC active speakers are very good. The active versions are really amazing compared to the passive versions. Anyway, I am quite chuffed because I got them at a good price second hand.


----------



## paul2qute

AndrewOld said:


> You might never have heard of ATC, but I can pretty much guarantee you will have listened to a lot of music mastered or monitored through ATCs.  Not many hi-fi companies have such a colossal professional reputation, presence or history.
> 
> http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/


Sorry mate I've heard atc just not that model


----------



## paul2qute

Triode User said:


> I think the ATC active speakers are very good. The active versions are really amazing compared to the passive versions. Anyway, I am quite chuffed because I got them at a good price second hand.


Made up for you mate


----------



## ZappaMan

AndrewOld said:


> You might never have heard of ATC, but I can pretty much guarantee you will have listened to a lot of music mastered or monitored through ATCs.  Not many hi-fi companies have such a colossal professional reputation, presence or history. And yes, their speakers are good. They do a lot of active speakers .. perfect to pop on the end of your TT2.
> 
> http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/


I had though passive speakers were better then active (very broad statement), but is that not the case generally?


----------



## paul2qute

ZappaMan said:


> I had though passive speakers were better then active (very broad statement), but is that not the case generally?


I love my Bryston amps,mono blocks 28 cube if I could afford them, couldn't comment on active


----------



## AndrewOld (Nov 3, 2018)

ZappaMan said:


> I had though passive speakers were better then active (very broad statement), but is that not the case generally?



I would have said the other way round. Not that I’m an expert. But Bill Woodman, the MD of ATC is - they were pioneers in active speakers - and you can read his thoughts on speaker  design in the link below. From about page 9 he lists the advantages of active speakers, which seem to be quite considerable. Since ATC make many of their speakers in both passive and active forms it is fairly easy to make up your own mind.  ime once you go active there’s no going back.

http://atcforums.co.uk/pdf/ATC CORP BROCHURE.pdf


----------



## paul2qute

AndrewOld said:


> I would have said the other way round. Not that I’m an expert. But Bill Woodman, the MD of ATC is - they were pioneers in active speakers - and you can read his thoughts on speaker  design in the link below. From about page 9 he lists the advantages of active speakers, which seem to be quite considerable. Since ATC make many of their speakers in both passive and active forms it is fairly easy to make up your own mind.  ime once you go active there’s no going back.
> 
> http://atcforums.co.uk/pdf/ATC CORP BROCHURE.pdf


I would love Rob watts view on the subject passive versus active, I'm gonna read about this company they sound superb


----------



## Triode User

ZappaMan said:


> I had though passive speakers were better then active (very broad statement), but is that not the case generally?



I first realised just how good active speakers could be when my friend sold his ATC SCM40 Mk2 passives and bought the active version of the same speaker. It was like chalk and cheese the difference was so big. The bass was the fist thing I noticed but really it was all through the spectrum. In my opinion the actives were stunning where I thought the passives were so so. ATC now make all their drivers in house and if they bring out an updated version of the speaker they will upgrade it to the current version. A great british firm.


----------



## Triode User

And just to say that a set of actives driven direct from the Dave is sublime.


----------



## musickid (Nov 5, 2018)

A new *Chord chat and lounge thread* i have started over on the members lounge section. It's an area to just relax a little if anyone is interested.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-lounge-and-chat-area.892658/


----------



## Triode User

Triode User said:


> I apologise to fellow Dave owners for my diversion into ATC. I will post piccies of mine when I get home with them on Tuesday.



I did promise pictures when I had got home with my new to me 13year old ATC SCM150ASL speakers . . . .  and here they are. They are simply divine driven direct from Dave.


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## Crgreen

Triode User said:


> I did promise pictures when I had got home with my new to me 13year old ATC SCM150ASL speakers . . . .  and here they are. They are simply divine driven direct from Dave.



Look in good nick.


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## Triode User (Nov 6, 2018)

Crgreen said:


> Look in good nick.



Thanks, yes, two very very small marks but amazing for 13 year old speakers. They were owned by an 89 year old and 'never raced or rallied' as one might say.


----------



## Amberlamps

Triode User said:


> I did promise pictures when I had got home with my new to me 13year old ATC SCM150ASL speakers . . . .  and here they are. They are simply divine driven direct from Dave.



Nice.

The look reminds me of my old Mission speakers, nice wooden box with detachable screen. Your ones above are better and larger. I like the wood, it has quality written all over it.


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## JaZZ

Just to be clear: «Driven direct from Dave» actually means «...whose integrated amps are fed directly by Dave», right?


----------



## Triode User

JaZZ said:


> Just to be clear: «Driven direct from Dave» actually means «...whose integrated amps are fed directly by Dave», right?



Correct. Sloppy language from me. My bad. I will roll over and take a kicking but I don’t care because the speakers  sound so good. Just listening to Fink - Wheels Turn Beneath My Feet. Lovely.


----------



## rgs9200m

Change of topic here. (Susvara.)
Comparing the Hifman Susvara, Focal Utopia, and Audeze LCD4 now that I've managed to get all of these and listen to them for quite a while using my DAVE as a source, the Susvara has become my favorite. But it needs an external headphone amp. 

All 3 of these headphones are great and I use them all, but the Susvara has the best combination of
1. resolution, 2. "muscality", 3. powerful bass, and 4. sound-staging/imaging that make the total sonic package for me.

I'm putting this in the DAVE thread since I believe many DAVE owners may avoid the Susvara since it needs a separate headphone amp (as I hear things).
But OMG, DAVE + amp + Susvara is extraordinary.


----------



## auricgoldfinger

rgs9200m said:


> Change of topic here. (Susvara.)
> Comparing the Hifman Susvara, Focal Utopia, and Audeze LCD4 now that I've managed to get all of these and listen to them for quite a while using my DAVE as a source, the Susvara has become my favorite. But it needs an external headphone amp.
> 
> All 3 of these headphones are great and I use them all, but the Susvara has the best combination of
> ...



What volume level on DAVE are you using with Susvara?


----------



## jacc

You sure adding MFA preamp doesn't improve the sound?? And try adding on some good speaker spikes. You will be impressed.




Triode User said:


> I did promise pictures when I had got home with my new to me 13year old ATC SCM150ASL speakers . . . .  and here they are. They are simply divine driven direct from Dave.


----------



## ecwl (Nov 6, 2018)

rgs9200m said:


> I'm putting this in the DAVE thread since I believe many DAVE owners may avoid the Susvara since it needs a separate headphone amp (as I hear things).
> But OMG, DAVE + amp + Susvara is extraordinary.


My understanding is that Hugo TT 2 with up to 8-18W/channel can drive Susvara well directly. But that’s a 10-element lower order noise shaper design.
I suspect there won’t be a lot of demand for a Chord DX amp to drive headphones exclusively to pair with DAVE with 20 element Power Pulse Array. And it’s not Chord’s style to charge $30,000 for an amp that they would normally markup to say $5000.
I do wonder if you can drive Susvara with Chord Etude though which might pair well? Not sure. I have a friend who drives his HiFiMan HE6 with his Benchmark AHB2 except that amplifier has lower gain settings.


----------



## onlychild

Another alternative to the Susvara are the HE1000SE run straight from Dave.  No amp needed and have many of the qualities of Susvara.


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## rgs9200m (Nov 6, 2018)

The volume was OK, but the Susvara just didn't have the fullness I like from it. 

As for the HE1000SE, I never heard it, but my HEKv2 is not really competitive with the Susvara, which has a texture and especially a presence and speed and sense of engagement that the HEK can't touch. The HEK seems a bit distant compared to the Susvara.

The Susvara's images sound more forceful and upfront but at the same time the whole musical space seems more expansive.

Everything seems more palpable with the Susvara.

And the inner texture of musical objects with the Susvara is something that really grabs me.
The resolution of DAVE just seems to be carried forth well by the Susvara.

And this is Dave without any Mscaling (which I have not heard).


----------



## Triode User

jacc said:


> You sure adding MFA preamp doesn't improve the sound?? And try adding on some good speaker spikes. You will be impressed.



Yes, I really am sure that the MFA preamp between Dave and my ATC active speakers does not improve the sound. I have tried it and I have tried it with a friends ATC SCM40 actives. All it does is to make the bass slightly less tight and the mids and treble slightly less accurate. Mind you the MFA is much better than the quite a few active preamps I have tried which really colour the sound (richer bass and low mids). Often this initially seems attractive especially with tube preamps but for me the novelty quickly wears off. Also often preamps make the bass much less tight but more importantly they lose a huge amount of definition and detail. For me Dave direct into the ATC actives is 100% the best. 

As a side note I have posted before that I did prefer to have the MFA in the system when I was using tube power amps and I still stand by that statement. In that case the reverse was true (to my ears) and the bass was firmer and more detail was present in the mids and treble. 

On speaker spikes, my photos were just quick ones whilst I decided where to place the speakers and I do always use spikes into the concrete floor.


----------



## HeeBroG

[QUOTEOn speaker spikes, my photos were just quick ones whilst I decided where to place the speakers and I do always use spikes into the concrete floor.[/QUOTE]

Instead of spikes, I would strongly recommend Townshend Pods. A paradigm shift but makes more sense. A friend with the current model of your speakers switched to pods from spikes and notice do a big improvement in clarity. A bit off topic but just a suggestion. 

http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi...t-vibration-isolation/seismic-isolation-pods/


----------



## Antiquarian

HeeBroG said:


> [QUOTEOn speaker spikes, my photos were just quick ones whilst I decided where to place the speakers and I do always use spikes into the concrete floor.



Instead of spikes, I would strongly recommend Townshend Pods. A paradigm shift but makes more sense. A friend with the current model of your speakers switched to pods from spikes and notice do a big improvement in clarity. A bit off topic but just a suggestion.

http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi...t-vibration-isolation/seismic-isolation-pods/[/QUOTE]
+1 on that, I now have the alternative to Townshend, IsoAcoustics GAIA. Transformational!


----------



## Jawed

Triode User said:


> my photos were just quick ones whilst I decided where to place the speakers


Some tips:

near field listening will give you the purest, direct, sound - the sound the pros get when they're listening to the recordings they're making - and a sound stage that goes far outside your listening room giving you musicians that are life-sized

in a near field setup there should be no wall closer than about 1m to the midrange/tweeter (including the wall behind the speaker), otherwise you'll get sound reflections that spoil transparency and sound stage, because your brain interprets early sound reflections as being part of the sound of each instrument in the recording

The "hi-fi" ATC speakers are meant to be used with the grilles on, as the grille has curved surfaces to minimise diffraction problems that would be caused by the sharp edges around the front of the speakers
ATCs are meant to be toed-in so that the tweeter is pointing at the respective ear or slightly behind
the midrange driver should be at ear height - if ear height is lower you might like to try tilting the speaker forwards (longer spike setting at the back)

for power, DAVE and the ATCs should all go into the same wall socket, to minimise the voltage differences caused by all three of them being mains-powered, which minimises the strength of any RF noise that could pollute the sound
I'm suitably envious. I have a lot of domestic refurbishment to do before I could get my own at home.


----------



## Triode User

Jawed said:


> Some tips:
> 
> near field listening will give you the purest, direct, sound - the sound the pros get when they're listening to the recordings they're making - and a sound stage that goes far outside your listening room giving you musicians that are life-sized
> 
> ...



Thank you for all that. It was kind of you to spend time. I will take note and try them all. Thank you again.


----------



## JaZZ

A warning against toe-in: Yes, not doing so will provoke an upper-treble fall-off, but you could perfectly equalize it. If you toe the speakers in, the imbalance within the dispersion pattern will aggravate, i.e. the upper treble sounds much drier than the rest, which leads to an unnatural and potentially irritating (typical «speaker») sound. The theoretical ideal would be uniform dispersion across the whole spectrum.


----------



## Jawed

JaZZ said:


> A warning against toe-in: Yes, not doing so will provoke an upper-treble fall-off, but you could perfectly equalize it. If you toe the speakers in, the imbalance within the dispersion pattern will aggravate, i.e. the upper treble sounds much drier than the rest, which leads to an unnatural and potentially irritating (typical «speaker») sound. The theoretical ideal would be uniform dispersion across the whole spectrum.


Luckily ATCs are designed to be used toed-in, it's what ATC shows in the manual and it's how people set them up.

Nearby walls are a serious problem. Muddled, early, reflections cause the sound stage to shrink in scale and lose depth. In the extreme, you end up with a "miniature" sound stage. Toe-in can't solve problems with nearby walls, unfortunately.

This is why the Audio Physic setup is so amazing. With this setup the walls cannot produce a reflected sound that arrives within 5ms of the direct speaker sound, and so your brain completely detaches the reflected sounds from the speaker sound. You get the pure, "giant headphones" effect from the near field configuration of the speakers, but with a sound stage you can measure in metres, not centimetres. 

If you feel like you can walk through the sound stage, then you have succeeded in setting up the speakers so that the room doesn't interfere. If the speakers are freed from the walls, toe-in gives you the smoothest and most neutral frequency response. That's how ATC speakers are designed to work.


----------



## JaZZ (Nov 9, 2018)

Jawed said:


> Luckily ATCs are designed to be used toed-in, it's what ATC shows in the manual and it's how people set them up.
> 
> Nearby walls are a serious problem. Muddled, early, reflections cause the sound stage to shrink in scale and lose depth. In the extreme, you end up with a "miniature" sound stage. Toe-in can't solve problems with nearby walls, unfortunately.
> 
> ...


I'm aware that many speaker manufacturers give this recommendation – because it's the only way to achieve a passably extended high-frequency response.

When it comes to reflections, it's not just the near-field reflections that count, but all reflections caused by all surfaces of the listening room. Near-field reflections have the most detrimental effect, as they interfer with the direct sound in a way that makes them indistinguishable from it. Later reflections are part of the ambiance as unavoidable – and partly wanted – contribution from the listening room, since you wouldn't want to enjoy your music in an anechoic chamber; it would sound unnatural and virtually inedible. This in contrast to listening to music on an open-air concert, even without reflection from a stage. I know what I'm talking about, since my own open-air gigs as a bass player were the highlights in my career as an active musician. Now what's the difference between an anechoic chamber and the free field? It's the residual reflections and resonances at low frequencies, which are extremely hard or actually impossible to completely eliminate. So why is the sonic experience in an anechoic chamber so unenjoyable, given that those low-frequency reflections are still magnitudes below those in a typical listening room? The cause is the extreme discrepancy in the frequency distrubution among the reflected sound.

Exactly the same results from the uneven dispersion pattern of typical speakers. At the upper end of each driver's frequency range it becomes narrower, especially noticeable with the tweeter – the main responsible for the toe-in recommendation. If you're familiar with electroacoustics, you may know that the theoretical ideal is an even dispersion of sound energy across the whole frequency spectrum – in all directions. Conventional speakers are far from this goal. In this context toe-in is necessary because of exactly this weakness – a drop-off of highest frequencies off axis – but toeing-in aggravates the discrepancy between reality and ideal, since those highest frequencies now are quasi projected towards the listener like a spotlight, while the off-axis sound in this frequency range is massively subdued, which leads to a speaker characteristic with «wet» low- and mid-frequencies and a continuously drier high-frequency reproduction (roughly spoken; in fact multiway speakers additionally suffer from [vertical] interferences between the drivers).

I'm absolutely aware that the resulting sound is kind of adapted as a «normal» speaker sound, and I agree (just like the majority of music listeners has adapted to the CD sound). But it's not optimal, and I'm trying to offer my experience as a former speaker builder who knows what's actually possible. Not toeing in your speakers is just a simple measure to avoid the worst-case scenario, ideally combined with active equalizing.

Logically near-field speakers suffer less from this problem, but in my experience it's nevertheless beneficial to avoid heavily uneven dispersion characteristics – and particularly large, reflective speaker baffles: the source of extremely harmful near-field reflections. Of course that doesn't just apply to the latter category.


----------



## Mikey99

JaZZ said:


> I'm aware that many speaker manufacturers give this recommendation – because it's the only way to achieve a passably extended high-frequency response.
> 
> When it comes to reflections, it's not just the near-field reflections that count, but all reflections caused by all surfaces of the listening room. Near-field reflections have the most detrimental effect, as they interfer with the direct sound in a way that makes them indistinguishable from it. Later reflections are part of the ambiance as unavoidable – and partly wanted – contribution from the listening room, since you wouldn't want to enjoy your music in an anechoic chamber; it would sound unnatural and virtually inedible. This in contrast to listening to music on an open-air concert, even without reflection from a stage. I know what I'm talking about, since my own open-air gigs as a bass player were the highlights in my career as an active musician. Now what's the difference between an anechoic chamber and the free field? It's the residual reflections and resonances at low frequencies, which are extremely hard or actually impossible to completely eliminate. So why is the sonic experience in an anechoic chamber so unenjoyable, given that those low-frequency reflections are still magnitudes below those in a typical listening room? The cause is the extreme discrepancy in the frequency distrubution among the reflected sound.
> 
> ...


There is an excellent video on loudspeaker placement by Hans Beekhuyzen. It covers placement, room treatment, toe-in. It gives the theory, and simple practical tips. The best video I have seen on this topic, most of the essentials in one place.


----------



## JaZZ

I don't think you have read my post careful enough...

I have nothing to add. Except that above recommendation is the worst thing I can think of.


----------



## Mikey99

The video discusses amount of toe-in and its dependence on speaker design.


----------



## kangyunmei

maybe it is a little expensieve,and can you depreciate price


----------



## iDesign (Nov 10, 2018)

For DAVE owners experiencing momentary dropouts with the Blu Mk II on BNC 1 and 2, can anyone confirm if this occurs less or none at all with Hugo M Scaler?


----------



## Mikey99 (Nov 10, 2018)

iDesign said:


> For DAVE owners experiencing momentary dropouts with the Blu Mk II on BNC 1 and 2, can anyone confirm if this occurs less or none at all with Hugo M Scaler?


I definitely get them with the M-Scaler. I get more drop outs on 1 and 2, occasional on 3 and 4. I will try another set of BNC cables to see if they make a difference. If not I may exchange for a new unit.

I have not tried a Blu, so I can’t say how it compares. I wonder if it a Dave issue or a Blu / M-Scaler issue?


----------



## iDesign (Nov 10, 2018)

Mikey99 said:


> I definitely get them with the M-Scaler. I get more drop outs on 1 and 2, occasional on 3 and 4. I will try another set of BNC cables to see if they make a difference. If not I may exchange for a new unit.
> 
> I have not tried a Blu, so I can’t say how it compares. I wonder if it a Dave issue or a Blu / M-Scaler issue?


Interesting. I reread all of the previous posts on the subject of M Scaler+DAVE dropouts but the technical reasoning for it hasn’t been been sufficiently explained especially since it apparently is not an issue with the Hugo TT 2.


----------



## Mikey99

iDesign said:


> Interesting. I reread all of the previous posts on the subject of M Scaler+DAVE dropouts but the technical reasoning for it hasn’t been been sufficiently explained especially since it apparently is not an issue with the Hugo TT 2.


I did read a post form Rob Watts (Blu thread I believe) indicating the DAVE is sensitive to this.  I have not read reports of the M-Scaler / TT2 having drop-outs, but the TT2 is just getting out there so maybe we haven't heard yet. Or maybe it is less sensitive. It only happens in Dual BNC mode.


----------



## Mikey99

Mikey99 said:


> I definitely get them with the M-Scaler. I get more drop outs on 1 and 2, occasional on 3 and 4. I will try another set of BNC cables to see if they make a difference. If not I may exchange for a new unit.
> 
> I have not tried a Blu, so I can’t say how it compares. I wonder if it a Dave issue or a Blu / M-Scaler issue?


I did some investigation. I had suspected a BNC cable issue, but that appears to be a red herring, the issue is upstream. I have narrowed it down to the M-Scaler USB input. I get no drop outs whatsoever on the optical input. I get dropouts on the USB input regardless of source (iMac, iPad, iPhone), player (Roon, Tidal or iTunes) or cable (tried several USB cables). The drop outs are very frequent when I connect the M-Scaler to the DAVE on BNC 1 and 2, less frequent but still there on BNC 3 and 4. It only occurs in dual BNC mode. Jiggling the BNC cables produces drop-outs in all cases, but I now realize it is unrelated to the above.

I wonder if this is same thing some BLU owners have seen. The BLU does not have optical input so I guess this is hard to test.


----------



## Triode User

Mikey99 said:


> I did read a post form Rob Watts (Blu thread I believe) indicating the DAVE is sensitive to this.  I have not read reports of the M-Scaler / TT2 having drop-outs, but the TT2 is just getting out there so maybe we haven't heard yet. Or maybe it is less sensitive. It only happens in Dual BNC mode.



I was talking (proper talking on the phone) to someone this week who was having drop outs with his Dave and we have sort of come to the conclusion that it was slightly loose bnc connections rather than an issue as such with Dave. He had decided that because he could wedge the cables in a certain place and stop the drop outs.



Mikey99 said:


> I did some investigation. I had suspected a BNC cable issue, but that appears to be a red herring, the issue is upstream. I have narrowed it down to the M-Scaler USB input. I get no drop outs whatsoever on the optical input. I get dropouts on the USB input regardless of source (iMac, iPad, iPhone), player (Roon, Tidal or iTunes) or cable (tried several USB cables). The drop outs are very frequent when I connect the M-Scaler to the DAVE on BNC 1 and 2, less frequent but still there on BNC 3 and 4. It only occurs in dual BNC mode. Jiggling the BNC cables produces drop-outs in all cases, but I now realize it is unrelated to the above.
> 
> I wonder if this is same thing some BLU owners have seen. The BLU does not have optical input so I guess this is hard to test.



I have a Blu2 and MScaler and do not get any drop oust no matter how hard I wiggle the cables at either the Dave end or the other end. In fact I have never had a single drop out despite using teh Blu2 and MScaler since they were first available. I know you seem to be concluding that your drop outs are not to do with the BNC connections and are somehow related to the USB input but I just wonder if you have a less than perfect electrical connection within the BNC connectors (drop outs if you wiggle them) then perhaps the connection is not good enough to sustain the dual BNC protocol.


----------



## Mikey99

Triode User said:


> I was talking (proper talking on the phone) to someone this week who was having drop outs with his Dave and we have sort of come to the conclusion that it was slightly loose bnc connections rather than an issue as such with Dave. He had decided that because he could wedge the cables in a certain place and stop the drop outs.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a Blu2 and MScaler and do not get any drop oust no matter how hard I wiggle the cables at either the Dave end or the other end. In fact I have never had a single drop out despite using teh Blu2 and MScaler since they were first available. I know you seem to be concluding that your drop outs are not to do with the BNC connections and are somehow related to the USB input but I just wonder if you have a less than perfect electrical connection within the BNC connectors (drop outs if you wiggle them) then perhaps the connection is not good enough to sustain the dual BNC protocol.


I could see how a less than perfect connection may make the system overly sensitive. But I wonder why it is sensitive to USB input, and not at all to optical input. I am getting another set of cables as a final check.


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## iDesign (Nov 11, 2018)

Triode User said:


> I was talking (proper talking on the phone) to someone this week who was having drop outs with his Dave and we have sort of come to the conclusion that it was slightly loose bnc connections rather than an issue as such with Dave. He had decided that because he could wedge the cables in a certain place and stop the drop outs.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a Blu2 and MScaler and do not get any drop oust no matter how hard I wiggle the cables at either the Dave end or the other end. In fact I have never had a single drop out despite using teh Blu2 and MScaler since they were first available. I know you seem to be concluding that your drop outs are not to do with the BNC connections and are somehow related to the USB input but I just wonder if you have a less than perfect electrical connection within the BNC connectors (drop outs if you wiggle them) then perhaps the connection is not good enough to sustain the dual BNC protocol.


Can you retest this on your DAVE using all of the BNC inputs? I’m curious to see what happens on BNC one and two.


----------



## Mikey99

iDesign said:


> Can you retest this on your DAVE using all of the BNC inputs? I’m curious to see what happens on BNC one and two.


In my case drop outs are clearly more frequent with BNC 1 and 2, several a minute.  It appears the cables are more sensitive to juggling as well. BNC 3 and 4 have less frequent drop-outs, but they still happen about once a minute or so.


----------



## Triode User

iDesign said:


> Can you retest this on your DAVE using all of the BNC inputs? I’m curious to see what happens on BNC one and two.



Assuming the request was aimed at me I have just done that for you. ie trying 1+2 and 3+4 BNC into the Dave with the dual bnc outputs from Blu2 and HMS. Despite vigorous wiggling at both ends of the cables I cannot induce any dropouts at all. And that was using usb from my Innuos SE.


----------



## Triode User

Mikey99 said:


> In my case drop outs are clearly more frequent with BNC 1 and 2, several a minute.  It appears the cables are more sensitive to juggling as well. BNC 3 and 4 have less frequent drop-outs, but they still happen about once a minute or so.



If 1 and 2 are more sensitive to jiggling and have more drop outs even without jiggling then that might support my thoughts that it is connection related.


----------



## iDesign

Rob Watts previously wrote this below regarding the issue but I’m not sure I understand the rationale why it’s more prevalent on BNC 1 and 2 and inconsistent among DAVE owners with the Hugo M Scaler and Blu Mk II. I’m considering returning my Blu Mk II for this and a host of other rasons. I just don’t see the value of the Blu Mk II yet. Perhaps if Chord irons this out and makes a standalone M Scaler in the Choral enclosure I’ll purchase another one then.


Rob Watts said:


> The problem with drop-outs on dual BNC is down to Dave momentarily dropping out of dual data mode; the detector that Dave uses depends upon sync on the two bit-streams, and it is sensitive. So far we have not seen an instance where one of the inputs fail to work, so if you do get a drop-out then switch to the other pair. The vast majority of Blu-Dave pairings work on both inputs perfectly. It's not an indication that either Blu or Dave is faulty it's just the way they pair together.


----------



## Triode User

iDesign said:


> Rob Watts previously wrote this below regarding the issue but I’m not sure I understand the rationale why it’s more prevalent on BNC 1 and 2 and inconsistent among DAVE owners with the Hugo M Scaler and Blu Mk II. I’m considering returning my Blu Mk II for this and a host of other rasons. I just don’t see the value of the Blu Mk II yet. Perhaps if Chord irons this out and makes a standalone M Scaler in the Choral enclosure I’ll purchase another one then.



I’m sorry about your issues. It’s difficult for me to say anything other than with the Blu2 and HMS that I own I haven’t had any drop outs. I am sat here listening to my Blu2 and I would be very reluctant to do without it. Have you tried raising the issue with your dealer? In my experience they are usually very helpful if a replacement or whatever is needed.


----------



## Mikey99

Triode User said:


> I’m sorry about your issues. It’s difficult for me to say anything other than with the Blu2 and HMS that I own I haven’t had any drop outs. I am sat here listening to my Blu2 and I would be very reluctant to do without it. Have you tried raising the issue with your dealer? In my experience they are usually very helpful if a replacement or whatever is needed.


My dealer has already offered to replace if we cannot sort it out.


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## ciukas (Nov 11, 2018)

I finally got to audition the DAVE vs TT2 this past weekend. High gain on TT2, no crossfeed. Quick A/B between the two using my iPhone as a source (Tidal) over USB using my usual test tracks. Unfortunately, did not compare the DAVE and TT2 both MScaled as originally planned.

These past several weeks, several users have already alluded to the idea that bc of its greater op stage, the TT2 offers a more immersive and musical experience with slightly difficult to drive headphones such as the Ether 2, 92dB (inner fidelity), LCD4 (stereonet), HEK V2 (romaz), Susvara (jude) compared to the DAVE. Ok, makes sense but what I really wanted to know was how efficient headphones fared on the two DACs. These last few months, I've tested and auditioned nearly every TOTL headphones on TOTL $10k amps (except for the Ether 2), and settled on the Empyrean. It sounded the best to me. But another reason I chose it is because its rated efficiency (100dB) would allow me to pair it with the DAVE without the nagging feeling that the TT2's greater dynamic drive might offer something more in terms of weight and authority. For headphone users, one of the DAVE's (sometimes) noted minor drawback is that it can sound slightly on the lean side, lacking some 'meat' so to speak. After all, who doesn't want more acoustic heft and slam when listening to tunes? Then, @STR-1 mentioned that even his very efficient Utopias benefited from the extra weight and authority with the TT2's drive, and I simply had to hear it for myself. I used the dealer's LCD2 (70 ohms, 101dB) because of its efficiency, and its planar design. Also, I know it extremely well, having owned it for years.

The very first thing I noticed is how much more closed in the TT2 sounded compared to the DAVE. I can't quite tell whether it was because of the extra taps, or its superior analogue op stage, but the DAVE sounds cavernous. It is a night and day type of difference to me. In contrast, the TT2 sounded warmer, more lush with all my test tracks, and had a very pleasing smooth tonality. Even though the TT2 sounded more closed in, it also sounded more full within its more confined space, which made music sound very pleasing and easy to listen to. More forgiving, and possibly more fatigue free for some people. The DAVE sounded considerably brighter, a lot more transparent, and had a more organic tonality. It's important to note that by bright, I dont mean it in the artificially boosted treble sense of the word, but rather use it relative to the TT2's darker sound signature.

The DAVE extracts more details from music, thus sounds brighter, and presents it all in a more natural way than the TT2. It seems to me that part of what gives the TT2 its warmth is partly due to the fact that music has this fantastic bass that is fuller and that decays more slowly than the DAVE which made the bass sound tighter, cleaner, and to my surprise, more punchy. And that's the second thing I noticed right away; I found the DAVE to be quite a lot faster, and more dynamic than the TT2. Just incredible speed. I was very pleasantly surprised by this, because I had read reports that the TT2's greater dynamic drive offered more transient impact in dynamic passages where there is peak demand for current. Not for me. The DAVE has more punch whereas the TT2 has more heft in the lower end. Almost like a dynamic vs planar driver type of comparison. So yes, even with an efficient headphone like the LCD2, music had extra weight (not authority), but not due to the reasons I thought it would be (greater headroom, greater current delivery, greater transient response thanks to supercaps), but rather bc I felt the DAVE's low end to be tighter, and leaner.

Another pleasant surprise, is that while I thought that the Dave would present a more majestic scale of large orchestral works, the TT2 might perhaps be better suited with other non classical/non jazz genres, having greater transient delivery of percussive instruments, etc... well actually, the DAVE not also sounded more holographic, more 3D on genres I mostly listen to, like rock, punk, post punk, techno, dark wave, etc, but it was also more explosive, more dynamic. On the other hand, on nearly every track, because of the fuller, more sustained, heftier low end on the TT2, I found myself wishing for these very qualities combined with the sheer speed, tonality, and transparency of the DAVE. The DAVE consistently showed more pleasing timbre variation and tonality, especially with violins, but when the darker fantastic bass growl of a cello or an octabass plays at the same time as violins, I can easily see why some would say the TT2 has greater weight and authority. Personally, I found the DAVE on a whole to have a greater mastery over the reproduction of music and thus a greater control and authority of the material. Music just makes more sense, and sounds more 'live'... But that TT2.... wow... what a performer... what a monster...

Obviously I left out a third system option, and that is DAVE + TOTL Amp + TOTL headphones. But because my lifestyle requires me to split my time between three countries every quarter or so, my primary interest in the DAVE and TT2 lay in knowing which of the two DACs would offer the ultimate transportable setup. That means no heavy, bulky, transparency robbing amp in the chain. It had to be either DAVE + efficient headphones (eg. LCD4z, Empyrean) or TT2 + inefficient TOTL (eg. 1266 Phi, Susvara, Ether 2, etc)

Clearly the setup of my audition was made from a standpoint that would best serve my personal needs (efficient headphones, transportable), and I would urge people to audition the DAVE and TT2 side by side if possible. Depending on your system configuration, it's very possible a TT2 + 1266 Phi/Ether 2/Susvara or future hard to drive headphones (Susvara 2?) handily beats a DAVE + LCD4z/Empyrean/Verite according to your taste. The TT2 is much much more versatile, and future proof this way. Also, my impressions were made without the MScaler. I very much look forward to more user reviews comparing the two DACs both MScaled w various headphones.

In the end, I went for the DAVE, and have placed my order... The die is cast but frankly speaking, it's all a win win situation with these two DACs... But still, a big part of me wishes Rob Watts would update the DAVE w his digital amps. Call it DAVE SE or smth, at least until he gets the tools from Xilinx to incorporate however many more taps or 'crumbs left in the barrel' from the DAVINA project into DAVE 2.

Finally, I might note that the TT2 is a lot better than the H2! I've previously heard the DAVE and H2 side by side in Seoul, and I can't quite understand it when people say the H2 isn't that far off... I love the H2, and used to own it, but the DAVE is miles ahead of the H2. Also, I wouldn't quite anoint the TT2 as a 'little brother' to the DAVE. As TT2 users have reported, it's an absolute beast, and it devours minions of H2 for breakfast. It's got its own unique character, it's more than just a H2 on steroids. Which DAC you prefer will really depend on your musical preferences and system synergy.

Will report back when I receive the DAVE Mscaled with the Empyrean.


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## GreenBow

I am surprised by your choice. If you wanted the TT2 with the DAVE qualities, the TT 2 and M-Scaler would have been it, and more. (People say Hugo 2 and M-Scaler outperforms DAVE.)


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## ciukas

I did pick up my preordered HMS during the audition. It's sadly still sitting alone in its box waiting for its partner


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## Clive101 (Nov 11, 2018)

iDesign said:


> For DAVE owners experiencing momentary dropouts with the Blu Mk II on BNC 1 and 2, can anyone confirm if this occurs less or none at all with Hugo M Scaler?



Yes same problem....! With the Mscaler, more with BNC 1 & 2 less with BNC 3 & 4.

Is you dealer changing the Dave or Mscaler..?


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## STR-1

ciukas said:


> I used the LCD2 (70 ohms, 101dB) because of its efficiency, and its planar design. Also, I know it extremely well, having owned it for years.


Very good write-up but do have a listen with the M Scaler.  

I am not familiar with the LCD2 but if it has a tonal character similar to the LCD4 (which I understand is more detailed) I expect I would find it to synergise better with the DAVE (leaving aside driving power).  This is always a personal preference thing but I thought my Utopia and HE1000v2 were a better tonal pairing with the TT2 than was my LCD4.  Those who prefer a warm bass-rich sound might feel differently.


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## ciukas

I did own the LCDi4 for nearly a year, and it shares similarities with the 4z. I'm unsure which pairing the i4 would benefit more from but I can totally see why you'd think the Utopia is a better match with the TT2. As we've both stated, it really is quite system dependent. With the LCD2, I would absolutely go for the DAVE. Same with Empyrean, though that's a 50/50 guess. Those of you thinking of trading in your DAVE for the TT2, I'd strongly urge you to audition both if you can.


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## maxh22

ciukas said:


> I did own the LCDi4 for nearly a year, and it shares similarities with the 4z. I'm unsure which pairing the i4 would benefit more from but I can totally see why you'd think the Utopia is a better match with the TT2. As we've both stated, it really is quite system dependent. With the LCD2, I would absolutely go for the DAVE. Same with Empyrean, though that's a 50/50 guess. Those of you thinking of trading in your DAVE for the TT2, I'd strongly urge you to audition both if you can.



Great write up thanks! I think it will help many people in their purchasing decisions. Are you still planning on testing TT2 Mscaler vs Dave Mscaler? Or did you send back the TT already?


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## zettelsm

In only two instances have I experienced drop outs with my DAVE/Blu MKII combo -- most persistently, when my LAN was not working correctly. Once that was sorted (I replaced an older ethernet switch for a newer, better quality one), the only other time I experienced intermittent drop outs I traced it back to not having one of the BNC connectors fully seated and locked. In the course of experimenting with and comparing various BNC cables I found a wide range of quality in BNC connectors, and even some very expensive cables had BNC terminations that at best could be called sloppy. Since adopting Nick's excellent WAVE BNC cables as my daily drivers I haven't experienced any problems with achieving a tight, positive connection at either end. I also feed my Blu MKII from a Innuos Zenith via USB and have tried several different USB cables and never had an occurrence of drop outs that I could isolate to the use or not of the USB input.

None of this addresses your particular problem save to say that the DAVE/Blu MKII can indeed work well together without drop outs, and of course that is the goal your dealer should strive to help you achieve.

I hope you get this sorted out soon. I know I get irritated when I have to trouble-shoot my system instead of being able to relax and enjoy uninterrupted music.

Steve Z


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## ciukas (Nov 11, 2018)

Not for the moment, I've decided to go for the DAVE. Even with the dealer's LCD2, I caught a glimpse of what the DAVE is truly capable of, and I think it'd be a better synergy with the Empyrean. I heard the Empyrean a few weeks ago, and I think the DAVE would suit it better.

I'll test both the DAVE and TT2 both MScaled specifically with the Empyrean at a local dealer in the coming weeks. That would at least provide one more data point for users looking for a similar config.


----------



## Mikey99

zettelsm said:


> In only two instances have I experienced drop outs with my DAVE/Blu MKII combo -- most persistently, when my LAN was not working correctly. Once that was sorted (I replaced an older ethernet switch for a newer, better quality one), the only other time I experienced intermittent drop outs I traced it back to not having one of the BNC connectors fully seated and locked. In the course of experimenting with and comparing various BNC cables I found a wide range of quality in BNC connectors, and even some very expensive cables had BNC terminations that at best could be called sloppy. Since adopting Nick's excellent WAVE BNC cables as my daily drivers I haven't experienced any problems with achieving a tight, positive connection at either end. I also feed my Blu MKII from a Innuos Zenith via USB and have tried several different USB cables and never had an occurrence of drop outs that I could isolate to the use or not of the USB input.
> 
> None of this addresses your particular problem save to say that the DAVE/Blu MKII can indeed work well together without drop outs, and of course that is the goal your dealer should strive to help you achieve.
> 
> ...


Thanks! indeed good to know the system can work without dropouts, I am sure we will sort it out.  It doesn't bother me that much, as I can enjoy through optical for the time being.


----------



## JaZZ

Thanks for your interesting review, _ciukas!_

From my perspective I'm glad you decided for the DAVE. What immediately crossed my mind is that you could probably get that TT₂ bass authority combined with DAVE punch without having to wait for a DAVE₂ – I would try some simple 20 Hz boost with an equalizer (doesn't have to be more than 1 dB).


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## seaice (Nov 11, 2018)

Mikey99 said:


> Thanks! indeed good to know the system can work without dropouts, I am sure we will sort it out.  It doesn't bother me that much, as I can enjoy through optical for the time being.



I experienced some dropouts with my M Scaler>Dave combo at the beginning but resolved it by reconnecting the supplied BNC cables. The BNC connections were always properly locked but I had to reconnect both cables twice to get rid of the problem completely... So I suspect that the BNC cables supplied with the M Scaler are not ideal - an imperfect BNC connection may occur even if the connectors are properly locked...

No problems now: USB > M Scaler > BNC 3/4 on Dave


----------



## simorag

ciukas said:


> I finally got to audition the DAVE vs TT2 this past weekend. High gain on TT2, no crossfeed. Quick A/B between the two using my iPhone as a source (Tidal) over USB using my usual test tracks. Unfortunately, did not compare the DAVE and TT2 both MScaled as originally planned.
> 
> (…)
> In the end, I went for the DAVE, and have placed my order... The die is cast but frankly speaking, it's all a win win situation with these two DACs... But still, a big part of me wishes Rob Watts would update the DAVE w his digital amps. Call it DAVE SE or smth, at least until he gets the tools from Xilinx to incorporate however many more taps or 'crumbs left in the barrel' from the DAVINA project into DAVE 2.
> (…)



Very interesting impressions, thanks!

If your experience will match mine, I believe you will be delighted when you get your M Scaler, as it could bring to your DAVE some of the things you have liked on the TT2 (e.g. a meatier sound).

Before the HMS, the DAVE sounded a little bit cold-ish / lean-ish to me (we're talking about a few percentages deviation from perfection here ), but with the M Scaler in the chain I have got a smoother, slightly warmer and darker overall presentation without sacrificing transparency or imaging. And I am not feeling this as an euphonic touch, but just the contrary i.e. a more _accurate_ reproduction of the real timbre of instruments, vocals etc..

Also, when you get your DAVE, I strongly recommend you to experiment with its crossfeed function, as it transforms soundstage reconstruction and imaging over headphones into a much more realistic experience IMHO. It has been a game changer for me, and I cannot listen to music with the crossfeed off anymore.


----------



## Triode User

GreenBow said:


> I am surprised by your choice. If you wanted the TT2 with the DAVE qualities, the TT 2 and M-Scaler would have been it, and more. (People say Hugo 2 and M-Scaler outperforms DAVE.)



Unless an MScaler is ultimately added to his Dave . . . . .


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## audio_1 (Nov 24, 2018)

I was getting intermittent clicks and pops, sometimes frightening when changing inputs on the Dave. I have just discovered how to eliminate them. Pause or stop play back of the digital sources that are being switched between, or alternatively mute the sound at the sources. From testing this evening it works every time.


----------



## Drewligarchy

Just pulled the trigger; merry christmas to me!

Replaced a Vega, which I traded in - and a Yggdrasil 2 which I'm going to sell.

Listening to the LCD 4s through the headphone out sounds great! I don't sense any lack of bass, dynamics or strain - though I've only had a short listen through them. Love the transparency directly out of the headphone out I have to see how it sounds with some songs that are recorded more softly - or see if I want to swap in my Violectric V281.

Now I have to sell some Schiit.

This was spurred by a previous demo with my Staxens and absolutely loving the Aeon Flow Closed with the Hugo 2. Interestingly I don't like the Aeon Flow Opens as much. Even with the  Closed being a bit bass light, they sound more pleasing to me?

If I am going to go all out and get another pair of headphones to match with my DAVE - what would you recommend based on loving that Aeon Flow Closed Signature? Do the Ether/Flows open or closed mimic or improve upon it? I tried the Utopias previously and didn't love them - though I do love the Clears.


----------



## Hifi Boy

simorag said:


> Also, when you get your DAVE, I strongly recommend you to experiment with its crossfeed function, as it transforms soundstage reconstruction and imaging over headphones into a much more realistic experience IMHO. It has been a game changer for me, and I cannot listen to music with the crossfeed off anymore.


This right here. I can vouch for this to be true. I've actually said the same for my Hugo 2 experience, so you can be sure that its going to hook you in even more with Dave. 

No way you can listen to music without crossfeed anymore!


----------



## ecwl

Drewligarchy said:


> If I am going to go all out and get another pair of headphones to match with my DAVE - what would you recommend based on loving that Aeon Flow Closed Signature? Do the Ether/Flows open or closed mimic or improve upon it? I tried the Utopias previously and didn't love them - though I do love the Clears.


cant help you with the headphones as I have problems trying out different ones in my hometown. But I do love Aeon Flow Closed at work and use the Utopia at home but can totally see how the Clear is more similar to Aeon Flow. Ether C is more of Aeon Flow but much heavier so maybe the Ether Flow is what you’re looking for.

But more importantly, from your photo, you prefer Phase Negative???  I almost always leave Phase as Positive as most modern recordings nowadays have the correct phase.

Crossfeed 3 does increase the bass level in addition to crossfeed. Just remember to switch it back to 0 if you also listen to speakers.


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## Drewligarchy (Nov 25, 2018)

ecwl said:


> cant help you with the headphones as I have problems trying out different ones in my hometown. But I do love Aeon Flow Closed at work and use the Utopia at home but can totally see how the Clear is more similar to Aeon Flow. Ether C is more of Aeon Flow but much heavier so maybe the Ether Flow is what you’re looking for.
> 
> But more importantly, from your photo, you prefer Phase Negative???  I almost always leave Phase as Positive as most modern recordings nowadays have the correct phase.
> 
> Crossfeed 3 does increase the bass level in addition to crossfeed. Just remember to switch it back to 0 if you also listen to speakers.



When I demoed A Dave, phase negative just sounded better to me - I'm a weirdo I know. I'll probably have to experiment a bit more to determine what sounds to best to my ears.


----------



## miketlse (Nov 25, 2018)

Drewligarchy said:


> When I demoed A Dave, phase negative just sounded better to me - I'm a weirdo I know. I'll probably have to experiment a bit more to determine what sounds to best to my ears.


Search this thread, because @TheAttorney tested a large sample of recordings, and posted that no one phase setting was best for all recordings. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-727#post-14191441
So some experimentation could prove beneficial.

[edited to add link]


----------



## TheAttorney (Nov 26, 2018)

miketlse said:


> Search this thread, because @TheAttorney tested a large sample of recordings, and posted that no one phase setting was best for all recordings. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-727#post-14191441
> So some experimentation could prove beneficial.



As my source (before DAVE) improves, I continue to get less bothered about the correct phase.  While I can still differentiate the right and wrong phase on most (not all) recordings, it's more a case of personal preference. And it's still over 10 to 1 in favour of positive phase (in terms of numbers of recordings). The "wrong" phase may give stlightly wider, more diffuse and brigher images, which may initiially sound more impressive, whereas the deeper, narrower, more focused "correct" phase may initially sound a touch subdued and shut-in. These are tiny objective differences and very recording dependent, so nobody should worry if you don't notice any difference.

Although some have said that every track, and even every image within a track, could potentially have different phases, I haven't noticed that in practice. My guess is that microphone cables tend to all be correctly wired up, so more likely its just a less diligent guy at the end who doesn't bother to check the final master.


----------



## Drewligarchy

TheAttorney said:


> As my source (before DAVE) improves, I continue to get less bothered about the correct phase.  While I can still differentiate the right and wrong phase on most (not all) recordings, it's more a case of personal preference. And it's still over 10 to 1 in favour of positive phase (in terms of numbers of recordings). The "wrong" phase may give stlightly wider, more diffuse and brigher images, which may initiially sound more impressive, whereas the deeper, narrower, more focused "correct" phase may initially sound a touch subdued and shut-in. These are tiny objective differences and very recording dependent, so nobody should worry if you don't notice any difference.
> 
> Although some have said that every track, and even every image within a track, could potentially have different phases, I haven't noticed that in practice. My guess is that microphone cables tend to all be correctly wired up, so more likely its just a less diligent guy at the end who doesn't bother to check the final master.



@TheAttorney  - you previously used Dave with the 009 and BHSE correct? I'm curious why you sold it.

Ironically now that I have such a transparent source - I feel like the 009 would benefit from tubes. Curious as to your impressions, with mids specifically, on 009 with BHSE - vs any solid state electrostatic amps you might have tried, with or without DAVE.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Drewligarchy said:


> @TheAttorney  - you previously used Dave with the 009 and BHSE correct? I'm curious why you sold it.



He went with the HEkv2.


----------



## TheAttorney

Drewligarchy said:


> @TheAttorney  - you previously used Dave with the 009 and BHSE correct? I'm curious why you sold it.
> Ironically now that I have such a transparent source - I feel like the 009 would benefit from tubes. Curious as to your impressions, with mids specifically, on 009 with BHSE - vs any solid state electrostatic amps you might have tried, with or without DAVE.



I've posted the link before about my 009/HEK/DAVE saga, but for those new to this thread, the key post is here. 
I've also had plenty to say about tube rolling on the BHSE thread. Yes tubes matter IMO, with or without DAVE. I still have a couple of quads available, so PM me if interested.

But to get back to DAVE, I think that DAVE's high transparency and neutrality can be a double-edged sword: It will show up all the good things in your system, but will also show up the bad - there is no hiding place for directly driven headphones if they have FR anomalies (most of them have). And I find that DAVE responds well (or badly) to upstream changes, so I'm not surprised that some find DAVE to be too bright or whatever. 

My basic components haven't changed for over a year, but I have tweaked the source (see my profile) with s/w, cables, ferrites, grounding. power supplies etc and I've often been surprised by what does and doesn't make a difference.
I've made the same headphones sound bright/dull/flat/dynamic/analytical/forgiving/etc with no changes to DAVE or my headphones. I don't know whether this is becuase of DAVE's high transparency (as the Chord team would like us to believe) or because DAVE is not as immune to noise (in its widest sense) as the Chord team would like us to believe. My guess is that's is a combination of both.


----------



## STR-1

Currently trying a few Jorma power cables (Swedish company) along with a Shunyata Delta NR to see how they compare to the Shunyata Alpha HC I have been using with my DAVE for the last two years.  Back then the Alpha HC was considered by some to be a good match for the DAVE but I am wondering what cables are being favoured today (the Shunyata Alpha is no longer available new).  Any recommendations (excluding the supplied cable)?  I’m still happy with the Alpha but am looking into this afresh as I seek to improve the power cables across my system.  Thanks for any thoughts.


----------



## Thenewguy007

STR-1 said:


> Currently trying a few Jorma power cables (Swedish company) along with a Shunyata Delta NR to see how they compare to the Shunyata Alpha HC I have been using with my DAVE for the last two years.  Back then the Alpha HC was considered by some to be a good match for the DAVE but I am wondering what cables are being favoured today (the Shunyata Alpha is no longer available new).  Any recommendations (excluding the supplied cable)?  I’m still happy with the Alpha but am looking into this afresh as I seek to improve the power cables across my system.  Thanks for any thoughts.



How do you feel the Shunyata Alpha add to the Dave? What's the biggest difference you hear vs. a stock power cord.


----------



## xxx1313

STR-1 said:


> Currently trying a few Jorma power cables (Swedish company) along with a Shunyata Delta NR to see how they compare to the Shunyata Alpha HC I have been using with my DAVE for the last two years.  Back then the Alpha HC was considered by some to be a good match for the DAVE but I am wondering what cables are being favoured today (the Shunyata Alpha is no longer available new).  Any recommendations (excluding the supplied cable)?  I’m still happy with the Alpha but am looking into this afresh as I seek to improve the power cables across my system.  Thanks for any thoughts.



Alpha NR is fine with DAVE, but tonally slightly different compared to the Alpha HC. Tighter bass, a bit less lower mids, but even a bit more quiet. The much cheaper Shunyata Venom is quite good too, imo. I use it for digital source gear. I love the Alpha NR feeding DAVE, but before you spend considerable amounts on "better" power cables, make sure to try what a simple toroidal transformer does in front of DAVE, or even more important in front of the Hugo M Scaler.


----------



## koven (Nov 28, 2018)

Is there a consensus on best input for DAVE? Is it USB?


----------



## STR-1

Thenewguy007 said:


> How do you feel the Shunyata Alpha add to the Dave? What's the biggest difference you hear vs. a stock power cord.



More weight, more authority, more natural tone.



xxx1313 said:


> Alpha NR is fine with DAVE, but tonally slightly different compared to the Alpha HC. Tighter bass, a bit less lower mids, but even a bit more quiet. The much cheaper Shunyata Venom is quite good too, imo. I use it for digital source gear. I love the Alpha NR feeding DAVE, but before you spend considerable amounts on "better" power cables, make sure to try what a simple toroidal transformer does in front of DAVE, or even more important in front of the Hugo M Scaler.


Thanks.  I’ll have to see if I can get another loan of the Alpha NR.  When I had it first time for 3-4 days I also felt it was lacking a bit in the lower-mid/upper-bass region compared to the HC but also felt it was a little quieter with the increased filtering.  Felt the same about the Alpha NR C19 cable I tried with my Venom UK6 and ended up getting the Alpha EF for that.


----------



## x RELIC x (Nov 28, 2018)

koven said:


> Is there a consensus on best input for DAVE? Is it USB?



Optical.



Rob Watts said:


> Yes optical is the best input - its really a question of getting the other inputs to match optical.


----------



## koven

x RELIC x said:


> Optical.



Thanks


----------



## Triode User (Nov 28, 2018)

koven said:


> Is there a consensus on best input for DAVE? Is it USB?



Yes, Dual BNC from MScaler or Blu2. If not that then USB (because I only have usb from Innuos Zenith SE  )


----------



## rgs9200m

Strangely, I like USB input more to the DAVE. It's sounds awesome.
But... I use an AQ Diamond USB cable and just tried a generic cheap optical cable.
I found the cheap optical cable input to sound less defined in the bass and harder in the highs, and just sort of unsettled.

I think DAVE like nice cables (including power cables; I use a Telwire HC power cord).


----------



## jscmd2000

I had an external low jitter clock digital interface Singxer SU-1 sitting around after selling my Yggy so decided to experiment one day comparing USB, optical, and AES inputs to the Dave. 
1. Macbook Pro -> AQ diamond USB -> Dave
2. AK380cu -> Wireworld Supernova 7 touslink -> Dave 
3. Macbook Pro -> AQ diamond USB ->  Singxer SU-1 -> Mogami gold AES -> Dave

From the Dave, AQ water rca -> Pass Labs HPA-1 and AQ water xlr -> Headamp GS-X MK2. Both amps drive the Susvaras, not at the same time, via Moon audio silver dragons. 
I picked the third option within10 minutes that day and have not changed since.  Wait, I did once but couldn't stand it and had to go back.  I know, it goes against a lot of things that were said in this thread including Rob himself, but I cannot argue with what I am hearing.  

There is no AES input on the HMS but there is a BNC input that will allow the SU-1 to be in the chain, so I will experiment again once it arrives comparing the USB, optical, and BNC inputs. I have very high hopes for the HMS because I really hate downloading high res files.


----------



## Triode User

jscmd2000 said:


> I had an external low jitter clock digital interface Singxer SU-1 sitting around after selling my Yggy so decided to experiment one day comparing USB, optical, and AES inputs to the Dave.
> 1. Macbook Pro -> AQ diamond USB -> Dave
> 2. AK380cu -> Wireworld Supernova 7 touslink -> Dave
> 3. Macbook Pro -> AQ diamond USB ->  Singxer SU-1 -> Mogami gold AES -> Dave
> ...



Thanks for your feedback on that. I am all for trying something different. 

Is there any way of describing what you liked about option 3?


----------



## jscmd2000

Triode User said:


> Thanks for your feedback on that. I am all for trying something different.
> 
> Is there any way of describing what you liked about option 3?



Not sure if I can do a good job of describing as well as some people on here, but will try.  I tested the inputs again tonight so the differences are more fresh in my head.  

In one word, option 3 sounded overall more accurate than the other two.  Any kind of music with a beat sounded more articulate, lively, and crisp.  Also, the notes sounded deeper and resonated stronger and easier through my head, if that makes sense. I usually don't like very loud music, but louder volume seemed less bothersome and painful.  Also, if I concentrate on the sub bass, it is easier to hear the pitch and not just feel the vibration.  Lastly, I can hear the echo more easily and get a better sense of the space especially when listening to large scale orchestral music.  Well recorded Mahler sounds absolutely fantastic!  I don't have golden ears so I am pretty sure...  if I can hear it, you can too.  Happy listening~


----------



## gnomen

jscmd2000 said:


> I have very high hopes for the HMS because I really hate downloading high res files.


This comment triggers something I have been wondering about.  With the very high quality of the HMS/Dave combo, are you able to hear any difference between CD quality and hi-res files?  I can think of a lot of technical arguments why the difference should no longer be audible but I am curious to see what you can hear in practice.  Thanks!


----------



## ray-dude

gnomen said:


> This comment triggers something I have been wondering about.  With the very high quality of the HMS/Dave combo, are you able to hear any difference between CD quality and hi-res files?  I can think of a lot of technical arguments why the difference should no longer be audible but I am curious to see what you can hear in practice.  Thanks!



I can answer for Blu2 + DAVE (still waiting on my HMS).  I can clearly hear a difference between CD (16/44) and high res content in my set up (using test files from 2L and other places).  

Whether this is due to decimation issues or 16 vs 24 bit or something else, I can't say.  On my infinite list of "to test" items, I want to take some quality high res 24/384 recordings and do an integer decimation to 24/48 and 16/48 and compare through mScaler.  That would at least take gross non-integer decimation errors off the table in the test.


----------



## Triode User (Nov 30, 2018)

gnomen said:


> This comment triggers something I have been wondering about.  With the very high quality of the HMS/Dave combo, are you able to hear any difference between CD quality and hi-res files?  I can think of a lot of technical arguments why the difference should no longer be audible but I am curious to see what you can hear in practice.  Thanks!



With my Hugo MScaler and Dave I can definitely tell  the difference and as long as the downloaded file is a genuine hi res file and not just upscaled by the download site. This is the case even if the hi res version is 48k as against 44.1.

Mind you 44.1 red book is pretty darned good through the MScaler. I also have Blu2 in another system and the same comments apply to that as well.


----------



## gnomen

Triode User said:


> With my Hugo MScaler and Dave I can definitely tell  the difference and as long as the downloaded file is a genuine hi res file and not just upscaled by the download site. This is the case even if the hi res version is 48k as against 44.1.
> 
> Mind you 44.1 red book is pretty darned good through the MScaler. I also have Blu2 in another system and the same comments apply to that as well.


Thanks for the quick response, guys.  I was rather hoping not to mess with hi-res files any more, partly because I don't trust their provenance.  I guess you can at least check by listening, as to whether it is genuine hi-res or seller upscaled.


----------



## ray-dude

gnomen said:


> Thanks for the quick response, guys.  I was rather hoping not to mess with hi-res files any more, partly because I don't trust their provenance.  I guess you can at least check by listening, as to whether it is genuine hi-res or seller upscaled.



FWIW, I'm perfectly happy with lossless TIDAL streaming, and only purchase high res content when I adore the label/recording engineer, and trust the content as actual high res.  Redbook through mScaler is astonishingly good.


----------



## aldavey

gnomen said:


> Thanks for the quick response, guys.  I was rather hoping not to mess with hi-res files any more, partly because I don't trust their provenance.  I guess you can at least check by listening, as to whether it is genuine hi-res or seller upscaled.


Since about 90% of so called Hi Res is either analogue or 44.1 in a High res ‘bucket’ I would stick to RBCD which sounds brilliant through HMS


----------



## ecwl

Whenever I hear a new classical music album release I really enjoy on Tidal, I would purchase the high-res version. Unfortunately that version is almost always 24/96. While I find for some, the difference between the 24/96 and 16/44 is present but not huge, I do find some other albums to offer a much more dramatic improvement. I don’t know whether that’s related to source music or the conversion from the original 24/96 to 16/44. Regardless one thing I consistent find is that the unfolded MQA 24/96 sounds inferior with DAVE or Blu2+DAVE compared to the 16/44. Either way, I can happily live with the 16/44.


----------



## jscmd2000

I cannot hear, on most days, the difference between 16 and 24 bit depths and I am not proud of it.  I was hoping for no difference answer for CDs and high res through HMS but... sounds like I have another item on the to do list.  hdtracks might not go out of business after all.


----------



## Triode User

jscmd2000 said:


> I cannot hear, on most days, the difference between 16 and 24 bit depths and I am not proud of it.  I was hoping for no difference answer for CDs and high res through HMS but... sounds like I have another item on the to do list.  hdtracks might not go out of business after all.



I have a Qobuz Sublime+ subscription which gives healthy discounts on HiRes downloads


----------



## Triode User

aldavey said:


> Since about 90% of so called Hi Res is either analogue or 44.1 in a High res ‘bucket’ I would stick to RBCD which sounds brilliant through HMS



Really? Where do you get that from? I'm not doubting you, just asking.


----------



## Crgreen

Triode User said:


> With my Hugo MScaler and Dave I can definitely tell  the difference and as long as the downloaded file is a genuine hi res file and not just upscaled by the download site. This is the case even if the hi res version is 48k as against 44.1.
> 
> Mind you 44.1 red book is pretty darned good through the MScaler. I also have Blu2 in another system and the same comments apply to that as well.



And how do you know if a file is genuine hi-res of just upscaled?


----------



## aldavey

Triode User said:


> Really? Where do you get that from? I'm not doubting you, just asking.


If the original master was mastered either analog or 44.1 how can putting this out at high res in 96/24 file increase the resolution.
Of course if the original is mastered 96/24 then there should be an identifiable increase in sq. But how many albums mastered like this are there for the vast majority of music to which we listen?


----------



## Triode User

aldavey said:


> If the original master was mastered either analog or 44.1 how can putting this out at high res in 96/24 file increase the resolution.



Agreed.



aldavey said:


> Of course if the original is mastered 96/24 then there should be an identifiable increase in sq. But how many albums mastered like this are there for the vast majority of music to which we listen?



Well I thought you were telling us that 90% sold as Hi Res were in fact just upscaled so according to you then your answer to your own question is 10%. Maybe there needs to be some sort of advertising standard on this.


----------



## GLM101

koven said:


> Thanks


I think the optical cable is limited to 48khz, so if you have files higher i.e 24/96 then you will not hear the music at its best.
Or have I got that wrong?!


----------



## Crgreen

GLM101 said:


> I think the optical cable is limited to 48khz, so if you have files higher i.e 24/96 then you will not hear the music at its best.
> Or have I got that wrong?!



Optical can go up to 192/24.


----------



## GLM101

aldavey said:


> If the original master was mastered either analog or 44.1 how can putting this out at high res in 96/24 file increase the resolution.
> Of course if the original is mastered 96/24 then there should be an identifiable increase in sq. But how many albums mastered like this are there for the vast majority of music to which we listen?


A source of good quality music 16 or 24 bit is a site called "Bandcamp".  I bought a VNV Nation album "Resonance" in 24/88khz and it sounds magnificent. However unlike the majority of their albums, this one was done with an orchestra. And a lot of older albums by various artists are on this site at 24 bits.


----------



## GLM101

Crgreen said:


> Optical can go up to 192/24.


Thanks for the information!


----------



## jscmd2000

Triode User said:


> I have a Qobuz Sublime+ subscription which gives healthy discounts on HiRes downloads



Thanks, I will definitely look into it!


----------



## aldavey

Triode User said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I thought you were telling us that 90% sold as Hi Res were in fact just upscaled so according to you then your answer to your own question is 10%. Maybe there needs to be some sort of advertising standard on this.


Bloody right there should be. I actually think I’m being kind when I say 90%. This is why the HMS is revolutionly because you can here CD quality at it’s level best without signing up to the ‘High Res/MQA self serving industry hype, oh and I should qualify IMHO, right.


----------



## miketlse

GLM101 said:


> A source of good quality music 16 or 24 bit is a site called "Bandcamp".  I bought a VNV Nation album "Resonance" in 24/88khz and it sounds magnificent. However unlike the majority of their albums, this one was done with an orchestra. And a lot of older albums by various artists are on this site at 24 bits.


I am listening now to a internet radio show that plays quite a few tracks from Bandcamp. I second that the site is worth exploring, because there is plenty of good well recorded music there.


----------



## GLM101

miketlse said:


> I am listening now to a internet radio show that plays quite a few tracks from Bandcamp. I second that the site is worth exploring, because there is plenty of good well recorded music there.


I should have added that some of the albums on Bandcamp cost as little as $1.00!!  Plus you can buy cassettes, vinyl and artist merchandise.
I believe a good proportion of the proceeds go straight to the artist/band. You can see how much has been given to the artist/band on the home page.

And some artists/bands give you the opportunity to buy their entire back catalogue, so for example I bought 235 albums (yes really!!) from Blank Embrace for $35!!! Now I just need to find the time to listen to them all!!


----------



## NoGameNoLife

Can anyone help me? I managed to get the funds for either the TT2 or a Dave for about £5k. The dream is to save up for the Abyss Phi CC next but would I be better served with the TT2 or the Dave. Don’t think I’ll get the opportunity again so what I get I’m stuck with in a way. Thanks for any help for a newbie .


----------



## xxx1313 (Dec 1, 2018)

ciukas said:


> I finally got to audition the DAVE vs TT2 this past weekend. High gain on TT2, no crossfeed. Quick A/B between the two using my iPhone as a source (Tidal) over USB using my usual test tracks. Unfortunately, did not compare the DAVE and TT2 both MScaled as originally planned.
> 
> These past several weeks, several users have already alluded to the idea that bc of its greater op stage, the TT2 offers a more immersive and musical experience with slightly difficult to drive headphones such as the Ether 2, 92dB (inner fidelity), LCD4 (stereonet), HEK V2 (romaz), Susvara (jude) compared to the DAVE. Ok, makes sense but what I really wanted to know was how efficient headphones fared on the two DACs. These last few months, I've tested and auditioned nearly every TOTL headphones on TOTL $10k amps (except for the Ether 2), and settled on the Empyrean. It sounded the best to me. But another reason I chose it is because its rated efficiency (100dB) would allow me to pair it with the DAVE without the nagging feeling that the TT2's greater dynamic drive might offer something more in terms of weight and authority. For headphone users, one of the DAVE's (sometimes) noted minor drawback is that it can sound slightly on the lean side, lacking some 'meat' so to speak. After all, who doesn't want more acoustic heft and slam when listening to tunes? Then, @STR-1 mentioned that even his very efficient Utopias benefited from the extra weight and authority with the TT2's drive, and I simply had to hear it for myself. I used the dealer's LCD2 (70 ohms, 101dB) because of its efficiency, and its planar design. Also, I know it extremely well, having owned it for years.
> 
> ...



Had the chance for an audition of DAVE vs TT2 today, both "MScaled", with Focal Utopia and the Meze Empyrean.

TT2 is really good, and with the Focal Utopia it was not clear to me which setup I liked more. HMS + DAVE is technically better, with better resolution and imaging, but tonally brighter. HMS + TT2 had a better base and also good synergy with the Utopia. This setup is high end too, without any doubt. I would not miss DAVE much with this setup, yes, it is so good. With the Empyrean it was different. HMS + DAVE simply outclasses HMS + TT2 with this headphone. Empyrean on DAVE clearly offers better resolution and imaging and also better dynamics. This is clearly and end-game setup as well, however tonally considerably different to the Utopia setup.

If interested, find more impressions on Meze Empyrean here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/mez...-array-headphone.871859/page-98#post-14633089


----------



## koven

NoGameNoLife said:


> Can anyone help me? I managed to get the funds for either the TT2 or a Dave for about £5k. The dream is to save up for the Abyss Phi CC next but would I be better served with the TT2 or the Dave. Don’t think I’ll get the opportunity again so what I get I’m stuck with in a way. Thanks for any help for a newbie .



5K for DAVE seems like a bargain.


----------



## jscmd2000

+1  No brainer


----------



## xxx1313

koven said:


> 5K for DAVE seems like a bargain.



It simply crazy to SELL a DAVE for that price. Strong buy!


----------



## Mikey99

NoGameNoLife said:


> Can anyone help me? I managed to get the funds for either the TT2 or a Dave for about £5k. The dream is to save up for the Abyss Phi CC next but would I be better served with the TT2 or the Dave. Don’t think I’ll get the opportunity again so what I get I’m stuck with in a way. Thanks for any help for a newbie .


Great bargain for the Dave! The only downside is that it may not quite bring out the most in the Abyss without additional amplification. If it were me I would still go for the Dave.


----------



## Tom Blake

Get the DAVE and give up on the Abyss and get an Empyrean. It is an astonishingly good headphone direct from DAVE! It is very easy to drive and there is no need for additional amplification. Fantastic synergy with BluDAVE. My Utopia may be kicked to the curb very soon.


----------



## koven

Tom Blake said:


> Get the DAVE and give up on the Abyss and get an Empyrean. It is an astonishingly good headphone direct from DAVE! It is very easy to drive and there is no need for additional amplification. Fantastic synergy with BluDAVE. My Utopia may be kicked to the curb very soon.



What do you like about the Meze over Utopia?


----------



## musickid

I found the meze pads far too thick and claustrophobic when trying them for comfort. No idea what they actually sound like.


----------



## Mikey99

musickid said:


> I found the meze pads far too thick and claustrophobic when trying them for comfort. No idea what they actually sound like.





Mikey99 said:


> I have compared the Empyrean and the Abyss AB1266 using a wide variety of music that I usually use for comparisons. Amongst others this includes: Master and Commander, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon Lou Reed Walk on the Wild Side, various Joni Mitchell, Guess Who Follow your Daughter Home, Gotan Project Chunga's Revenge and La del Russo, Miles Davis Kind of Blue, Klaatu Little Neutrino, Interstellar, Inception, B52s, various Zappa. I used iMac / Roon> optical>Chord Hugo M-Scaler>Chord DAVE > XI Audio Formula S with Powerman.  The Empyreans are very efficient in comparison to the Abyss and are easily driven direct from the Dave (unlike the Abyss). But to minimise variables I went from the Formula S for both for this comparison.
> 
> They are beautifully packaged, best I have seen for headphones. Funny thing, opening the case and taking them out I couldn't help thinking of a hitman assembling a gun.  Build quality is amazing, I almost didn't want to handle them because they looked like a work of art. Nevertheless they are solid and can be handled without fear. Really well assembled and a lot of attention to detail. The cable however is poor: stiff, fiddly, a bit microphonic.
> 
> ...




I have posted my impressions of the Empyrean compared to the Abyss from the Dave (through an amp) in the Empyrean thread.


----------



## Tom Blake

koven said:


> What do you like about the Meze over Utopia?



I have been very happy with Utopia direct from DAVE. At times they can be a bit much though with the hyperdetail and I take a break with my ZMFs. I was intrigued by the Empyrean and wanted to give them a try. The potential of a top tier planar that can be easily driven direct by DAVE is very appealing. They have the nicest build quality of any headphone I have encountered and they are extremely comfortable. I wore them for 6 hours yesterday and had no issues at all. I am not done in my comparisons with Utopia yet but so far I am very impressed. They have a warm signature with very impactful and rich bass. They clearly best the Utopia here. The midrange is very enjoyable with great presence to vocals and guitar without being too forward. The treble is highly resolving and detailed. It is not as impressive as the Utopia but Empyrean are more laid back and not as bright. Overall a very enjoyable and fun headphone to listen to that may well suit my listening preferences better than Utopia. Meze has a real winner here and it's a relative bargain to its competitors like Utopia, LCD-4, Abyss, etc. They seem to synergize really well with DAVE also as does Utopia, of course. I am at a similar volume level on DAVE with the Empyreans as I am with Utopia so they seem just as easy to drive. Absolutely no need for an external amp. Highly recommend DAVE owners check them out!


----------



## STR-1

Tom Blake said:


> I have been very happy with Utopia direct from DAVE. At times they can be a bit much though with the hyperdetail and I take a break with my ZMFs. I was intrigued by the Empyrean and wanted to give them a try. The potential of a top tier planar that can be easily driven direct by DAVE is very appealing. They have the nicest build quality of any headphone I have encountered and they are extremely comfortable. I wore them for 6 hours yesterday and had no issues at all. I am not done in my comparisons with Utopia yet but so far I am very impressed. They have a warm signature with very impactful and rich bass. They clearly best the Utopia here. The midrange is very enjoyable with great presence to vocals and guitar without being too forward. The treble is highly resolving and detailed. It is not as impressive as the Utopia but Empyrean are more laid back and not as bright. Overall a very enjoyable and fun headphone to listen to that may well suit my listening preferences better than Utopia. Meze has a real winner here and it's a relative bargain to its competitors like Utopia, LCD-4, Abyss, etc. They seem to synergize really well with DAVE also as does Utopia, of course. I am at a similar volume level on DAVE with the Empyreans as I am with Utopia so they seem just as easy to drive. Absolutely no need for an external amp. Highly recommend DAVE owners check them out!


Good feedback.

I see you also have the Blu 2.  Can I ask if you have taken any steps to reduce the rf contamination travelling through to the DAVE from the Blu 2?  The glare that results from this will be highlighted by the Utopia more so than by the Empyrean.


----------



## hehaw77

NoGameNoLife said:


> Can anyone help me? I managed to get the funds for either the TT2 or a Dave for about £5k. The dream is to save up for the Abyss Phi CC next but would I be better served with the TT2 or the Dave. Don’t think I’ll get the opportunity again so what I get I’m stuck with in a way. Thanks for any help for a newbie .



Absolutely get the Dave... it has higher taps... etc.. you can pair it later with the Mscaler...


----------



## hehaw77 (Dec 3, 2018)

STR-1 said:


> Good feedback.
> 
> I see you also have the Blu 2.  Can I ask if you have taken any steps to reduce the rf contamination travelling through to the DAVE from the Blu 2?  The glare that results from this will be highlighted by the Utopia more so than by the Empyrean.




?? are you familiar with how the Blu and Chord work in tandem? There is next to no RF contamination.... The blu works on getting a perfect sign wave via the 104mhz clock. What is key here is the type of interconnects you are using between the two. The better the interconnect the better the sound.... and he doesn't have the blu2 he has the mscaler ; different products...


----------



## Triode User

hehaw77 said:


> Absolutely get the Dave... it has higher taps... etc.. you can pair it later with the Mscaler...



Agree, if you can get a Dave for £5k then it is a bargain. Rob Watts has very recently confirmed on here that there are currently no plans at all to replace Dave and so it is going to be top of the game for quite a while which will protect your investment.


----------



## Triode User

hehaw77 said:


> ?? are you familiar with how the Blu and Chord work in tandem? There is next to no RF contamination.... The blu works on getting a perfect sign wave via the 104mhz clock. What is key here is the type of interconnects you are using between the two. The better the interconnect the better the sound.... and he doesn't have the blu2 he has the mscaler ; different products...



Unfortunately you are wrong there. There has been quite a bit of discussion about this in the Blu2 thread and Rob Watts himself originally brought up the issue of RF contamination from the Blu2 getting into the Dave and causing harshness/glare. Rob's suggestion was to use clip on ferrites and many Blu2 owners do this with great success and that allows the Blu2 to be heard in all its magnificence. The significance of the cables between Blu2 and Dave is not so much about traditional 'quality' so much as the ability to filter the RF. Yes the Blu2 and MScaler are different products but they have exactly the same technology inside them although the MScaler has internal filtering to limit the RF transfer.


----------



## miketlse (Dec 3, 2018)

deleted


----------



## burbster

gnomen said:


> This comment triggers something I have been wondering about.  With the very high quality of the HMS/Dave combo, are you able to hear any difference between CD quality and hi-res files?  I can think of a lot of technical arguments why the difference should no longer be audible but I am curious to see what you can hear in practice.  Thanks!



Yes I have posted on this subject previously, whilst I concede that the HMS makes a bigger difference in general to RBCD material, it still elevates my HiRes collection to yet another level! Really special.


----------



## JaZZ

gnomen said:


> This comment triggers something I have been wondering about.  With the very high quality of the HMS/Dave combo, are you able to hear any difference between CD quality and hi-res files?  I can think of a lot of technical arguments why the difference should no longer be audible but I am curious to see what you can hear in practice.  Thanks!





burbster said:


> Yes I have posted on this subject previously, whilst I concede that the HMS makes a bigger difference in general to RBCD material, it still elevates my HiRes collection to yet another level! Really special.



I agree with _burbster:_ 44.1 kHz recordings benefit the most from the M Scaler, but even 192 kHz recordings sound better with it, although to a minor degree. If we (and Rob) are lucky, 44.1 kHz could be all we need once Davina is an established component in recording studios. As I see it, the main reason why hi-res still sounds better is the common A/D conversion and decimation in the studios that needs to be improved, while higher sampling rates offer the better precondition for transient accuracy than a frequency range that has to be strictly limited to 22 kHz. That is, till Davina comes into play.


----------



## Tom Blake

STR-1 said:


> Good feedback.
> 
> I see you also have the Blu 2.  Can I ask if you have taken any steps to reduce the rf contamination travelling through to the DAVE from the Blu 2?  The glare that results from this will be highlighted by the Utopia more so than by the Empyrean.



Yes I run WAVE Storm Reference cables between Blu2 and DAVE. Very happy with these cables from Nick! They definitely reduced some residual brightness in my system and provided a richer, darker tone to my overall sound quality. I compared them to Snake River Boomslangs, SOtM, and Clearer Audio Optimus Reference. I preferred the WAVE cables over these competitors. I am confident RF pollution is not an issue with my BluDAVE setup


----------



## hehaw77

Triode User said:


> Unfortunately you are wrong there. There has been quite a bit of discussion about this in the Blu2 thread and Rob Watts himself originally brought up the issue of RF contamination from the Blu2 getting into the Dave and causing harshness/glare. Rob's suggestion was to use clip on ferrites and many Blu2 owners do this with great success and that allows the Blu2 to be heard in all its magnificence. The significance of the cables between Blu2 and Dave is not so much about traditional 'quality' so much as the ability to filter the RF. Yes the Blu2 and MScaler are different products but they have exactly the same technology inside them although the MScaler has internal filtering to limit the RF transfer.



Use quality interconnects and that solves your RF issue.... I''ve always used quality interconnects so this RF issue has not been an issue for me.  Also can you quote this Rob Watts thing on ferrites. When I was using lower grade power cables I used ferrites however I don't need them anymore... as everything is upgraded now...


----------



## Drewligarchy

I know this probably has been discussed to death in the thread, but can someone describe for me both the amount and type of improvement I'd get from adding an M-Scaler or Blu2 to my newly acquired Dave?

There are some other audio upgrades I have to consider in my system first - and I am incredibly happy with the Dave - but obviously curious.

To me, Dave sounds relatively perfect for the sound I was going for. I am primarily using it with my KGSSHV Carbon and Stax 009. I also use with my LCD-4, and I find nothing lacking going direct vs my V281, in fact, I like it significantly more.

Is there a change in tonal balance or an increase in resolution, depth, space etc? I read someone mentioned "Mscaler does for horns what Dave does for strings". In fact, Ive been blown away by what Dave does for horns. "Black Beauty" in DSD on the first Opus 3 sampler is incredible.

Dave is the only DAC that has fully taken advantage of the resolution of the 009 that I've listened to - though it's also the most expensive DAC I've listened to, with only the Bricasti M1 SE being in the same ballpark.

What would an M-Scaler do to my system? I'm sure I'll try it eventually but curious.


----------



## ray-dude

Drewligarchy said:


> I know this probably has been discussed to death in the thread, but can someone describe for me both the amount and type of improvement I'd get from adding an M-Scaler or Blu2 to my newly acquired Dave?



https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-blu-mk-ii-digital-cd-transport.22848/reviews#review-19675

Looking forward to updating this soon with mScaler impressions!


----------



## Drewligarchy

ray-dude said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-blu-mk-ii-digital-cd-transport.22848/reviews#review-19675
> 
> Looking forward to updating this soon with mScaler impressions!



Thanks so much - did read your review and it was fantastic. I think you had mentioned the HD800 was the bottleneck. While the Stax can resolve better than the HD800 in my opinion, I'm also going through an external amp. For headphone listening is there a consensus on the best pairings with the Dave?

I tried an hd800 years ago and liked it - but found it slightly bright. I think Dave would ameliorate that. I had the Utopia for a week and the mids sounded a bit too dry in my system.

Ultimately, is it a worthwhile upgrade for headphones?


----------



## ray-dude (Dec 3, 2018)

Drewligarchy said:


> Thanks so much - did read your review and it was fantastic. I think you had mentioned the HD800 was the bottleneck. While the Stax can resolve better than the HD800 in my opinion, I'm also going through an external amp. For headphone listening is there a consensus on the best pairings with the Dave?
> 
> I tried an hd800 years ago and liked it - but found it slightly bright. I think Dave would ameliorate that. I had the Utopia for a week and the mids sounded a bit too dry in my system.
> 
> Ultimately, is it a worthwhile upgrade for headphones?



I'm waiting on a TT2 to pair with an HMS for auditions, but on my short list is the Susvara and Abyss Phi.  I'd like to compare mDAVE vs mTT2 with these headphones (and the HD800 for continuity).  The Utopia is a fine pairing (and m-scales a bit better than the HD800 to my ear) but I'm a sucker for the speed/soundstage/detail from both the Susvara and Abyss Phi.  I just want to be sure to hear them with both the brawn of the mTT2 and the elegance of the mDAVE so I can get a handle on what is source attributable vs what is intrinsic to the headphones.

I was able to audition the HEKse.  Shockingly good with the Hugo2 and DAVE (wow).


----------



## Mikey99

Drewligarchy said:


> I know this probably has been discussed to death in the thread, but can someone describe for me both the amount and type of improvement I'd get from adding an M-Scaler or Blu2 to my newly acquired Dave?
> 
> There are some other audio upgrades I have to consider in my system first - and I am incredibly happy with the Dave - but obviously curious.
> 
> ...


I hear no direct change in tonal balance. This may be why some find the M-scaler effect to be subtle at first. The effects are on soundstage (more 3 dimensional), better instrument separation, instruments and vocals which sound more natural and present, better transients across the frequency range in general but more noticeable in the bass.


----------



## Triode User

Drewligarchy said:


> I know this probably has been discussed to death in the thread, but can someone describe for me both the amount and type of improvement I'd get from adding an M-Scaler or Blu2 to my newly acquired Dave?
> 
> There are some other audio upgrades I have to consider in my system first - and I am incredibly happy with the Dave - but obviously curious.
> 
> ...



When I got my Blu2 I thought that it made Dave into ’double Dave’. In other words more of the same. It was a huge change at least to my ears and it still is. My Blu2 had a slight issue recently with the CD player and so I took it out of the system and DVe really sounded flat in comparison which silly but I really really missed the Blu2. The MScaler does just the same for Dave. 

Interesting that you mention the Bricasti. I sold mine to get Dave.


----------



## hehaw77 (Dec 4, 2018)

Drewligarchy said:


> I know this probably has been discussed to death in the thread, but can someone describe for me both the amount and type of improvement I'd get from adding an M-Scaler or Blu2 to my newly acquired Dave?
> 
> There are some other audio upgrades I have to consider in my system first - and I am incredibly happy with the Dave - but obviously curious.
> 
> ...



If you have a large cd collection go with the Blu2. It also has more ports to do things with than the Mscaler... if you have a music player that rips or don't have a lot of CD's go with the Mscaler...


----------



## hehaw77

Mikey99 said:


> I hear no direct change in tonal balance. This may be why some find the M-scaler effect to be subtle at first. The effects are on soundstage (more 3 dimensional), better instrument separation, instruments and vocals which sound more natural and present, better transients across the frequency range in general but more noticeable in the bass.



I need to make sure I say this emphatically....... its not just about adding the Mscaler to the Dave ... if you don't have the right supporting equipment.....  One huge thing is the interconnects you are using between them... that makes a huge difference as well as the power cords and power supplies you are using...  if your not hearing an improvement in everything one of these items is lacking in your setup.


----------



## tunes

Does anyone know if when turning off DAVE using the IR remote if it is just put into standby mode and remains on until the power switch is turned off? Or does powering down with the remote really shut down the components. 

Thanks 

DBK


----------



## woodcans

Just added a Torus Power conditioner in front of HMS & Dave. There is a noticeable increase in clarity & an even blacker background. Thanks for the tip.



xxx1313 said:


> Alpha NR is fine with DAVE, but tonally slightly different compared to the Alpha HC. Tighter bass, a bit less lower mids, but even a bit more quiet. The much cheaper Shunyata Venom is quite good too, imo. I use it for digital source gear. I love the Alpha NR feeding DAVE, but before you spend considerable amounts on "better" power cables, make sure to try what a simple toroidal transformer does in front of DAVE, or even more important in front of the Hugo M Scaler.


----------



## jscmd2000

hehaw77 said:


> I need to make sure I say this emphatically....... its not just about adding the Mscaler to the Dave ... if you don't have the right supporting equipment.....  One huge thing is the interconnects you are using between them... that makes a huge difference as well as the power cords and power supplies you are using...  if your not hearing an improvement in everything one of these items is lacking in your setup.



I couldn't agree more.  Both the Dave and HMS have huge potential to scale up, so any improvement becomes obviously audible that more easily.  Price isn't everything, but more often than not in this hobby, you do get what you pay for.  I think using interconnects mainly used for running cctv costing $20 for 60 ft would be similar to feeding mp3 files to your system. 

Recently, I purchased a pair of what I would consider crazy expensive interconnects that I wouldn't dream of purchasing just a few years ago.  They were suppose to be new, but the seller sent an open box with seals broken, didn't even bother to package the original box, and just stuck the postage on the box.  So I complained and asked for a refund.  But the improvement I heard was no joke so I kept them.


----------



## Clive101

woodcans said:


> Just added a Torus Power conditioner in front of HMS & Dave. There is a noticeable increase in clarity & an even blacker background. Thanks for the tip.



Yes could not agree more with the Torus Power supply fantastic product totally transformed my HiFI……….

The other thing to recommend is a change of FUSE yes I thought I was mad even to consider the fuses....

I have purchased 6 of the Blue Fuses made by Synergistic   https://www.synergisticresearch.com/fuses/blue/

The difference, this for me is the cheapest and best uplift in SQ I have experienced, I replaced the fuse in Melco Z and Headamp GSX Mk2 on my headphone system talk about more detail astonishing results smack you in the face detail...… and without any burn-in.

Yet to try the HiFi system as those fuses burning in on some servers I have running 24/7.


----------



## hehaw77

Clive101 said:


> Yes could not agree more with the Torus Power supply fantastic product totally transformed my HiFI……….
> 
> The other thing to recommend is a change of FUSE yes I thought I was mad even to consider the fuses....
> 
> ...




Torus is a great product but remember it does not regenerate power it does clean up noise however emi rfi etc...  and depending on the model also regulates the voltage..

If you want even better results use the Torus in front of a PS audio direct stream product and that will provide even better results... 

Fuse that's interesting... I'll have to check that out.....  I just want to make sure I don't go beyond the recommended amps...


----------



## Triode User

hehaw77 said:


> Torus is a great product but remember it does not regenerate power it does clean up noise however emi rfi etc...  and depending on the model also regulates the voltage..
> If you want even better results use the Torus in front of a PS audio direct stream product and that will provide even better results...
> Fuse that's interesting... I'll have to check that out.....  I just want to make sure I don't go beyond the recommended amps...



I used a PS Audio P10 mainly to regulate voltage to a tube amp but when that was sold I got rid of the P10 because it seemed to dump switching noise back into the mains and also into the 'clean' supply. I also tried a different power regenerator which did exactly the same.


----------



## hehaw77

Triode User said:


> I used a PS Audio P10 mainly to regulate voltage to a tube amp but when that was sold I got rid of the P10 because it seemed to dump switching noise back into the mains and also into the 'clean' supply. I also tried a different power regenerator which did exactly the same.



not there old products.. new products direct stream products which have replaced the old ones which are much better. You also need to set them up according to your specs... In my setup ... which  goes like this ..   audio sensibility distribution box to Torus power conditioner to direct stream ;   I also tried various having the Torus in front of the direct stream ... but the sound is better the other way...


----------



## hehaw77 (Dec 4, 2018)

I also have to say I own the WA33 amp and really like its tube sound signature and its immense power...  However I must admit that when I want to hear micro details I go back to the Dave dac on its own...  plus it uses a lot less power...  there are differences... the amp makes you feel like your right there beside the artists...  the Dave is very articulate.. so much so you can hear people breathing before they use there instruments or nails going across guitar strings..the air swirling before the sounds transform it into sound.... and sometimes I miss that ...  so it depends on the mood... ...

This is on high efficiency headphones...  planars are best suited to the WA33...


----------



## x RELIC x

hehaw77 said:


> This is on high efficiency headphones... planars are best suited to the WA33...



And yet I listen to planar headphones direct from the DAVE and enjoy it immensely. The generalization that planar headphones pair ‘better’ with the WA33 would be, in my opinion, a matter of preference. I agree with the ‘matter of mood’ because I feel the same way regarding the Liquid Gold amp in the chain.


----------



## astrostar59

Triode User said:


> I used a PS Audio P10 mainly to regulate voltage to a tube amp but when that was sold I got rid of the P10 because it seemed to dump switching noise back into the mains and also into the 'clean' supply. I also tried a different power regenerator which did exactly the same.



How did you come to the conclusion the P10 dumped noise back into the line? I have found only positive aspects to using one in my system. Though I would recommend keeping it's load down to 45% or less. Over that I would say use the amp soaking up that load direct into the mains. My front end sounds smoother and consistently better out of the P10, the 2am sound 24/7 or better. My apartment can regularly have 3-2.5% mains distortion according top the readout. So if you are in a cleaner location you may not get so much of a bounce effect.


----------



## Triode User

astrostar59 said:


> How did you come to the conclusion the P10 dumped noise back into the line? I have found only positive aspects to using one in my system. Though I would recommend keeping it's load down to 45% or less. Over that I would say use the amp soaking up that load direct into the mains. My front end sounds smoother and consistently better out of the P10, the 2am sound 24/7 or better. My apartment can regularly have 3-2.5% mains distortion according top the readout. So if you are in a cleaner location you may not get so much of a bounce effect.



I measured it.


----------



## hehaw77

x RELIC x said:


> And yet I listen to planar headphones direct from the DAVE and enjoy it immensely. The generalization that planar headphones pair ‘better’ with the WA33 would be, in my opinion, a matter of preference. I agree with the ‘matter of mood’ because I feel the same way regarding the Liquid Gold amp in the chain.



No they sound better period on a amp with power... blows away the DAVE....


----------



## x RELIC x

hehaw77 said:


> No they sound better period on a amp with power... blows away the DAVE....



Ok, that's your opinion, but don't try to enforce it on me.


----------



## hehaw77

x RELIC x said:


> Ok, that's your opinion, but don't try to enforce it on me.



Lol...... .. do what you want...


----------



## x RELIC x (Dec 4, 2018)

hehaw77 said:


> Lol...... .. do what you want...



Well, do you have any clue what most headphones even draw for power. My Liquid Gold is capable of 9W (at max volume), but if I fed that in to my planar  headphones I would likely damage them. I don't subscribe to myths and false pretense. Tuning, synergy, and preference I can get on board with. Saying that (generally) planar headphones require unused power is not accurate. Perhaps a couple of the very most difficult to drive headphones, yeah, but not generally.


----------



## astrostar59

Triode User said:


> I measured it.



With what instrument, show me a pic of it please, I also want to measure this 'noise'. I can here noise in my mains if I hook up my DAC direct and leave a unit using a SMPS in the same mains line. And notice the difference with it removed. I also can hear the sonic improvement using the P10 to straight into the mains.


----------



## astrostar59

x RELIC x said:


> Well, do you have any clue what most headphones even draw for power. My Liquid Gold is capable of 9W (at max volume), but if I fed that in to my planar  headphones I would likely damage them. I don't subscribe to myths and false pretense. Tuning, synergy, and preference I can get on board with. Saying that (generally) planar headphones require unused power is not accurate. Perhaps a couple of the very most difficult to drive headphones, yeah, but not generally.



Total power is important as it means the amp driving the headphone is well within it's threshold and dynamics and rise times do not suffer. I could hear hideous compression in many Stax amps driving my 007s for example, but not the later KG amps I had, partly as they had twice the drive and reserves. Also the power supply design (how good it is) in any amp is crucial to the sound you will get.


----------



## hehaw77

x RELIC x said:


> Well, do you have any clue what most headphones even draw for power. My Liquid Gold is capable of 9W (at max volume), but if I fed that in to my planar  headphones I would likely damage them. I don't subscribe to myths and false pretense. Tuning, synergy, and preference I can get on board with. Saying that, generally, planar headphones require unused power is not accurate. Perhaps a couple of the very most difficult to drive headphones, yeah, but not generally.




Really you want to tussle with me about this....  The majority of planars I have heard on the DAVE were atrocious. Enough to make me nauseous. It wasn't until I got the WA33 and listened to planars on them at the literal begging of some of my friends because I couldn't stand planars before that I though they all sucked and anyone that liked them had hearing deficiencies. 

It's a well known fact planars require more power and prefer amps with more wattage. I'm not familiar with your amp or the quality of it but on the WA33 the planars sound spectacular on the DAVE they are ok you can't compare the DAVE amp to a seperate high quality amp period.....   who's saying you have to use all 9 watts... planars do require more power do your research...


----------



## Triode User

astrostar59 said:


> With what instrument, show me a pic of it please, I also want to measure this 'noise'. I can here noise in my mains if I hook up my DAC direct and leave a unit using a SMPS in the same mains line. And notice the difference with it removed. I also can hear the sonic improvement using the P10 to straight into the mains.



It depends what you are calling sonic improvement. And you say you hear noise in your mains, what do you mean by that, how does this noise in your mains sound?


----------



## x RELIC x

hehaw77 said:


> Really you want to tussle with me about this....  The majority of planars I have heard on the DAVE were atrocious. Enough to make me nauseous. It wasn't until I got the WA33 and listened to planars on them at the literal begging of some of my friends because I couldn't stand planars before that I though they all sucked and anyone that liked them had hearing deficiencies.
> 
> It's a well known fact planars require more power and prefer amps with more wattage. I'm not familiar with your amp or the quality of it but on the WA33 the planars sound spectacular on the DAVE they are ok you can't compare the DAVE amp to a seperate high quality amp period.....   who's saying you have to use all 9 watts... planars do require more power do your research...



Done my research and been around enough. You can generalize all you want. I disagree.


----------



## hehaw77

x RELIC x said:


> Done my research and been around enough. You can generalize all you want. I disagree.



lol.... see above do what you want...


----------



## astrostar59

Triode User said:


> It depends what you are calling sonic improvement. And you say you hear noise in your mains, what do you mean by that, how does this noise in your mains sound?



The sound was smoother and blacker, better dynamics and less edgy I think is the best description. I am assuming that was effect of the noise, but it could also be the wave form and less line distortion. There is a Multiwave on the P10 which also improves the sound to my ears, better bass definition. It brings the 2am sound to all day listening is the best way to describe this. 
*If anyone here finds they love that 2am sound, this is why - line distortion and noise in the mains (IMO). *


----------



## x RELIC x

astrostar59 said:


> Total power is important as it means the amp driving the headphone is well within it's threshold and dynamics and rise times do not suffer. I could hear hideous compression in many Stax amps driving my 007s for example, but not the later KG amps I had, partly as they had twice the drive and reserves. Also the power supply design (how good it is) in any amp is crucial to the sound you will get.



Yes, of course, we agree on this. The difference is that generalizations were being made that aren't accurate. For someone's preference it's a different story. I'm NOT debating that someone likes an amp better. I'm saying that the generalization that planar headphones need unused power is false. The DAVE has far and above enough power (Current and Voltage) for loads of headroom for 120dB SPL dynamic peaks (hopefully no one listens that loud) without distortion using MOST planar headphones.


----------



## Triode User

astrostar59 said:


> The sound was smoother and blacker, better dynamics and less edgy I think is the best description. I am assuming that was effect of the noise, but it could also be the wave form and less line distortion. There is a Multiwave on the P10 which also improves the sound to my ears, better bass definition. It brings the 2am sound to all day listening is the best way to describe this.
> *If anyone here finds they love that 2am sound, this is why - line distortion and noise in the mains (IMO). *



Thanks.


----------



## hehaw77 (Dec 4, 2018)

x RELIC x said:


> Yes, of course, we agree on this. The difference is that generalizations were being made that aren't accurate. For someone's preference it's a different story. I'm NOT debating that someone likes an amp better. I'm saying that the generalization that planar headphones need unused power is false. The DAVE has far and above enough power (Current and Voltage) for loads of headroom for 120dB SPL dynamic peaks (hopefully no one listens that loud) without distortion using MOST planar headphones.



I see so you believe that the Utopia's are just as easy to drive as a planar. The issue here is not unused power. The discussion is about power and pairing.


----------



## hehaw77

Triode User said:


> Thanks.



the new units are way better at handling thd you should look into the trade program they have


----------



## Triode User

hehaw77 said:


> the new units are way better at handling thd you should look into the trade program they have



Thanks but I sold my P10 and do not miss it at all.


----------



## x RELIC x (Dec 4, 2018)

hehaw77 said:


> I see so you believe that the Utopia's are just as easy to drive as a planar. The issue here is not unused power. The discussion is about power and paring.



Depends on the planar. Use the math to calculate the Current and Voltage required to drive, let's say, MrSpeakers ETHER Flow (96dB SPL/mw @1kHz, 23 Ohms). You'll see that it won't need anywhere what the DAVE is capable of to reach 120dB peaks. The ETHER Flow requires just 2.4V and 104.35mA, 250.43mW of power to reach 120dB peaks (again, VERY painfully loud). The dynamic driver Utopia is slightly different in the impedance curve because at 50kHz the impedance rises to over 300 Ohms so it will require more Voltage than the 80 Ohm @1 kHz impedance spec implies. However, this is also not an issue for the DAVE's output though (the DAVE's 500mA is quite a bit of Current for most planar headphones).

The speaker world knows these calculations VERY well and a user can calculate the power needed for the transducer taking in to account distance as well (headphones really don't require the distance SPL falloff calculation). On Head-Fi it's just myths and unicorns regarding power and _generalizations_, and it seems some users can't distinguish total design / tuning / synergy from _output _power.

I listen to the ETHER Flow (a planar headphone) at around -30 to -40 on the DAVE volume depending on the genre and track. So you are trying to tell me I need even more headroom because the output isn't enough. I don't think so.


----------



## hehaw77

x RELIC x said:


> Depends on the planar. Use the math to calculate the Current and Voltage required to drive, let's say, MrSpeakers ETHER Flow (96dB SPL/mw @1kHz, 23 Ohms). You'll see that it won't need anywhere what the DAVE is capable of to reach 120dB peaks. The ETHER Flow requires just 2.4V and 104.35mA, 250.43mW of power to reach 120dB peaks (again, VERY painfully loud). The dynamic driver Utopia is slightly different in the impedance curve because at 50kHz the impedance rises to over 300 Ohms so it will require more Voltage than the 80 Ohm @1 kHz impedance spec implies. However, this is also not an issue for the DAVE's output though (the DAVE's 500mA is quite a bit of Current for most planar headphones).
> 
> The speaker world knows these calculations VERY well and a user can calculate the power needed for the transducer taking in to account distance as well (headphones really don't require the distance SPL falloff calculation). On Head-Fi it's just myths and unicorns regarding power and _generalizations_, and it seems some users can't distinguish total design / tuning / synergy from _output _power.
> 
> I listen to the ETHER Flow (a planar headphone) at around -30 to -40 on the DAVE volume depending on the genre and track. So you are trying to tell me I need even more headroom because the output isn't enough. I don't think so.



Really what about the Phi or Susvara   -30 -40 ...  most of my DAVE listening is at -15 sometimes to -9 if I'm in a mood....


----------



## x RELIC x

hehaw77 said:


> Really what about the Phi or Susvara   -30 -40 ...  most of my DAVE listening is at -15 sometimes to -9 if I'm in a mood....



You will note that the whole time I have been addressing _*generalizations *_regarding planar headphones with the DAVE and the Phi and Susvara are a couple of rare instances that an external amp may benefit them for power required. There are plenty of other planar headphones besides the Phi and Susvara.


----------



## JaZZ (Dec 4, 2018)

_Hehaw..._

...you're quite unique here with your categorical statements – as if others haven't done their homework and made their own experiences with audio electronics. It's clear to me that your argumentation is based on personal preference, generalized with pseudo-scientific reasonings with no real scientific background apart from «well-known facts». Unused power is something that your amp will never use, so it can just as well be renounced. A good power supply is something else, but not dependent on output power.

What makes me definitely doubt your competence – in my view and according to my personal sonic ideal – is the fact that you don't even take notice of the loss of transparency by inserting another amplifier into the signal path, taking its signal from the DAVE's «headphone output», so to speak. Even with the added power reserves providing more «authority» or the like in your perception (euphonic colorations in my book) your immense experience should enable you to notice this factor – which is a crucial one for me.

My own experience has led me to a very reserved relationship with amplifiers. At the latest since experiments with headphones driven directly by an appropriate digital source (or its line out, respectively) in comparison with a headphone amp in the signal path. And recently I compared the Susvara – one of the headphones the DAVE can't drive (a well-known fact) – once driven by the DAVE and once via HiFiMan EF1000, a power machine par excellence, fine-tuned to the manufactuer's own TOTL planar headphone. And guess what: I preferred the direct connection by a fair margin. Much better transient response, higher transparency, tighter, better controlled bass, clearly better imaging...

BTW, at home I enjoy the HE1000 driven by the DAVE, and there's not the least itch to try one of my headphone amps with it – actually I could sell them. But who knows, maybe one day there's a new best headphone on the market that I want and the DAVE really can't drive.


----------



## hehaw77

JaZZ said:


> _Hehaw..._
> 
> ...you're quite unique here with your categorical statements – as if others haven't done their homework and made their own experiences with audio electronics. It's clear to me that your argumentation is based on personal preference, generalized with pseudo-scientific reasonings with no real scientific background apart from «well-known facts». Unused power is something that your amp will never use, so it can just as well be renounced. A good power supply is something else, but not dependent on output power.
> 
> ...



I really don't care what you think about my competency... I don't see you putting formulas out there. Amps drive planars better period...  show me the math on the Susvara and Phi ...


----------



## hehaw77

x RELIC x said:


> You will note that the whole time I have been addressing _*generalizations *_regarding planar headphones with the DAVE and the Phi and Susvara are a couple of rare instances that an external amp may benefit them for power required. There are plenty of other planar headphones besides the Phi and Susvara.



Those are some of the best...  let's see the calcs.. mr. I've been around...


----------



## Triode User

Around what?


----------



## astrostar59

x RELIC x said:


> Yes, of course, we agree on this. The difference is that generalizations were being made that aren't accurate. For someone's preference it's a different story. I'm NOT debating that someone likes an amp better. I'm saying that the generalization that planar headphones need unused power is false. The DAVE has far and above enough power (Current and Voltage) for loads of headroom for 120dB SPL dynamic peaks (hopefully no one listens that loud) without distortion using MOST planar headphones.



This isn't about spare power not needed, more about efficiency of the HP used. The Utopia is way more efficient than the LCD4 200ohm. I heard the LCD4 out of the DAVE at Can-Jam, and the volume was at +6 for normal listening. On the Utopia is looked it was on -9.

The LCD4 out if the GSX on the next stand sounded much bigger, better dynamics and generally more alive. Yes, out of the DAVE it is transparent, but everything else less impressive. So this leads me to believe the LCD4 is quite hungry. The Abyss even more so, and the HE-6 a disaster needing a speaker amp....


----------



## adyc

astrostar59 said:


> The sound was smoother and blacker, better dynamics and less edgy I think is the best description. I am assuming that was effect of the noise, but it could also be the wave form and less line distortion. There is a Multiwave on the P10 which also improves the sound to my ears, better bass definition. It brings the 2am sound to all day listening is the best way to describe this.
> *If anyone here finds they love that 2am sound, this is why - line distortion and noise in the mains (IMO). *



It is also because everyone is sleeping, the background noise is minimal. There is calmness to the surroundings.


----------



## x RELIC x (Dec 4, 2018)

hehaw77 said:


> Those are some of the best...  let's see the calcs.. mr. I've been around...



Nice attitude.

You really think others aren't aware of what's considered the best or not? I'm well aware of the Abyss Phi and Susvara. I've heard the Susvara, and a few others like the LCD-4 but not the Phi. This will be my last reply to you.

Susvara required power (of course, add some headroom above these numbers - 20% is a good place to start):





Abyss Phi required power (of course, add some headroom above these numbers - 20% is a good place to start):



Edit: I purchased the Cavalli Liquid Gold amp because it has been reported to be the perfect pairing for the Abyss AB-1266, as that was in my plans a couple years ago. Don't assume I don't know about these other headphones.


----------



## x RELIC x (Dec 4, 2018)

astrostar59 said:


> This isn't about spare power not needed, more about efficiency of the HP used. The Utopia is way more efficient than the LCD4 200ohm. I heard the LCD4 out of the DAVE at Can-Jam, and the volume was at +6 for normal listening. On the Utopia is looked it was on -9.
> 
> The LCD4 out if the GSX on the next stand sounded much bigger, better dynamics and generally more alive. Yes, out of the DAVE it is transparent, but everything else less impressive. So this leads me to believe the LCD4 is quite hungry. The Abyss even more so, and the HE-6 a disaster needing a speaker amp....



Please re-read my posts regarding generalizations and not cherry picking difficult to drive planars.

If listening to the Utopia at -9 on the DAVE the listener either has hearing damage, or is on their way to it if they don't consider that too loud, or the source music is exceptionally low. I listen to the Utopia in the -25 to -35 range from the DAVE for an average of 85-90dB SPL. Also, I didn't bring Utopia in to the conversation so let's not dwell on it.

Regarding efficiency, one MUST look at the sensitivity spec, not the impedance. The impedance will determine the ratio between Voltage and Current required. Higher impedance requires more Voltage and lower impedance requires more Current.


----------



## Crgreen

hehaw77 said:


> Those are some of the best...  let's see the calcs.. mr. I've been around...


 
“Round, round, been around, I’ve been around” , etc.


----------



## hehaw77

Triode User said:


> Around what?



his block probably


----------



## hehaw77

x RELIC x said:


> Nice attitude.
> 
> You really think others aren't aware of what's considered the best or not? I'm well aware of the Abyss Phi and Susvara. I've heard the Susvara, and a few others like the LCD-4 but not the Phi. This will be my last reply to you.
> 
> ...



Don't assume that I don't think you don't assume that you assume you don't assume that I don't think you do  Mr. I've been around  eg..  these need amps... thanks for the charts


----------



## x RELIC x (Dec 4, 2018)

hehaw77 said:


> Don't assume that I don't think you don't assume that you assume you don't assume that I don't think you do  Mr. I've been around  eg..  these need amps... thanks for the charts



Good grief. I only said that the GENERALIZATION of planar headphones is what I disagreed with - why is this so hard to comprehend? You brought up difficult to drive headphones, which you can obviously see might be better from an external amp, depending on one's listening habits. Darn, I replied again to you.

Edit: Strictly speaking from a power output perspective. Preferences are completely subjective.


----------



## Drewligarchy

hehaw77 said:


> No they sound better period on a amp with power... blows away the DAVE....



Disagree - I think it’s preference. I greatly prefer my LCD 4 directly out of Dave vs V281, and I’ve always loved that amp with them. Same with my Auralic Taurus.

Now I don’t doubt I might prefer a tube amp but it would be a preference thing. I find absolutely nothing lacking with the LCD 4 Dave direct. No decrease in soundstage, no decrease in bass quality, no strain, but much increased transparency.

I think it’s truly a subjective thing by definition.


----------



## hehaw77

x RELIC x said:


> Good grief. I only said that the GENERALIZATION of planar headphones is what I disagreed with - why is this so hard to comprehend? You brought up difficult to drive headphones, which you can obviously see might be better from an external amp, depending on one's listening habits. Darn, I replied again to you.



I think you can't help yourself since you've been around so much. I still think planars sound better on tube amps. Tubes match well with them... tubes are warmer ; solid state can drive them they just don't sound good... analog vs digital.....


----------



## hehaw77

Drewligarchy said:


> Disagree - I think it’s preference. I greatly prefer my LCD 4 directly out of Dave vs V281, and I’ve always loved that amp with them. Same with my Auralic Taurus.
> 
> Now I don’t doubt I might prefer a tube amp but it would be a preference thing. I find absolutely nothing lacking with the LCD 4 Dave direct. No decrease in soundstage, no decrease in bass quality, no strain, but much increased transparency.
> 
> I think it’s truly a subjective thing by definition.



It's ok your allowed to be wrong..


----------



## Drewligarchy

hehaw77 said:


> It's ok your allowed to be wrong..



It’s kind of like saying that “you’re wrong if you don’t believe oranges are the tastiest fruit in the world”

I know from your many many posts you are in the Moar power camp. If you love your planar setup, I’m happy that you enjoy your system.

I like Dave direct better - and I didn’t think I would. So I’m gonna enjoy it.

If it’s wrong thanI don’t want to be right.


----------



## hehaw77

Drewligarchy said:


> It’s kind of like saying that “you’re wrong if you don’t believe oranges are the tastiest fruit in the world”
> 
> I know from your many many posts you are in the Moar power camp. If you love your planar setup, I’m happy that you enjoy your system.
> 
> ...




I like them both I've also written on that... however if I want a larger sound stage and larger bass I go with the amp... the Dave just can't compete there..... 

Dave is great for details.. if you have the equipment for it.


----------



## astrostar59

adyc said:


> It is also because everyone is sleeping, the background noise is minimal. There is calmness to the surroundings.



Nice idea, but not relevant. I can chill with my headphones anytime. The point is, lower mains usage locally (other houses) probably means less one distortion, pending there factors such as weather and such. Short story, I wouldn't go back to dirty mains and the direct connection. It's no secret a lot of high end demos set up at shows use power regenerators. The Living Voice Olympian room at Munich even had a huge battery bank, no mains.


----------



## Drewligarchy

Dave is not running off the Surface, but rather Auralic Aries not pictured. Roon has a new feature that lets you send the now playing screen to any web browser / chromecast tied to a specific zone.

My compact New York City apartment setup:


----------



## koven

Has Roon DSD upsampling improved at all or is HQP still far superior?


----------



## tunes

Clive101 said:


> Yes could not agree more with the Torus Power supply fantastic product totally transformed my HiFI……….
> 
> The other thing to recommend is a change of FUSE yes I thought I was mad even to consider the fuses....
> 
> ...


Which model Torus Power conditioner is best for the CHORD DAVE/HMS combination?  Can you plug both into the conditioner?


----------



## Clive101

tunes said:


> Which model Torus Power conditioner is best for the CHORD DAVE/HMS combination?  Can you plug both into the conditioner?



 Yes you can plug both in at the same time to any Torus, there are a few models, some models also control voltage ( AVR Models ). I have two a TOT AVR  which runs a headphone system rated at 4amps and a 16 amp Avr2 which runs a HiFi system and is powerful enough for two 1000 watt monoblocks plus all the other equipment.
The TOT Avr is running at the moment 243volts input 229 volts output.
There is a lot of power protection built in just go to the Torus website for more information.
If you have poor or noisy power to get the best from your equipment I would say treat the power supply, the dealer stated everyone who tried a Torus on demo ended up making a purchase, no-one so far has sent one back.....
I  tested as an overall system amps server router etc all plugged in, I have not tested with Dave alone I could......
For me it was an instant purchase, guess I have poor power...?
Get a demo first it's free, but be warned you may end up making a purchase.


----------



## Triode User

I don’t listen to headphones ‘cos I’m a speaker sort of guy but someone popped in today to listen to my system and he had just happened to have three sets of headphones with him.

Well, it would have been churlish to pass up the opportunity to listen to them.

So in pretty fast order I was introduced to headphone out of the Dave with (I hope I have got them right) LCD4Z, Focal Utopia, Meze Audio Empryrean.

Nice.

So now I at least a vague idea about some of the things you guys talk about.


----------



## STR-1

Triode User said:


> I don’t listen to headphones ‘cos I’m a speaker sort of guy but someone popped in today to listen to my system and he had just happened to have three sets of headphones with him.
> 
> Well, it would have been churlish to pass up the opportunity to listen to them.
> 
> ...


Did any of them offer up anything you liked?


----------



## xxx1313

tunes said:


> Which model Torus Power conditioner is best for the CHORD DAVE/HMS combination?  Can you plug both into the conditioner?



I would rather use two conditioners. They need not be expensive ones, but separating HMS and DAVE is important, imo.


----------



## hehaw77

tunes said:


> Which model Torus Power conditioner is best for the CHORD DAVE/HMS combination?  Can you plug both into the conditioner?



The Torus is pretty flexible and they have different options... the one I use is the basic version... I have a power distribution block; which goes to the Torus then from the Torus to the Direct stream from Ps Audio...  i changed positions between the torus and ps audio and found have the Torus before it goes to the ps audio produces the best sound... the new ps audio units have a dac in them and produces a dsd sound wave.. so it really improves the sound quality all around..    however if you don't want something that elaborate you can get a Torus that has all the bells and whistles like a voltage monitor keeps it around 120v and other options they have...


----------



## Triode User

STR-1 said:


> Did any of them offer up anything you liked?



I prefer my speaker set up. I find it more transparent and better able to cope with bass shape and resolution. Each of the headphones was good in many ways though and I can see why each has a following.


----------



## STRATOVOX

Hi All.
New to the forum (have been enjoying reading the posts in this thread) and i'm in the market for a DAVE.  Would like to ask a couple of questions of the community related to purchasing.  If its inappropriate to ask questions related to retail please feel free to tell me or if it needs to be accomplished by PM.  
1. Would really appreciate recommendations for specific dealers (in the US I guess as I don't know if we can buy internationally)  that they have had good experiences with
2.  How much pricing flexibility do the dealers have? (How much can prices vary from dealer to dealer? None-->Significantly) Have members solicited quotes from multiple dealers or no?  
Thanks very much for any help ahead of time.  
Cheers


----------



## hehaw77

STRATOVOX said:


> Hi All.
> New to the forum (have been enjoying reading the posts in this thread) and i'm in the market for a DAVE.  Would like to ask a couple of questions of the community related to purchasing.  If its inappropriate to ask questions related to retail please feel free to tell me or if it needs to be accomplished by PM.
> 1. Would really appreciate recommendations for specific dealers (in the US I guess as I don't know if we can buy internationally)  that they have had good experiences with
> 2.  How much pricing flexibility do the dealers have? (How much can prices vary from dealer to dealer? None-->Significantly) Have members solicited quotes from multiple dealers or no?
> ...



I know some dealers in California that could help you but your in Atlanta...


----------



## STRATOVOX

hehaw77 said:


> I know some dealers in California that could help you but your in Atlanta...


That would be brilliant actually if you have had good experiences with particular dealers.  I would like to contact a number of recommended dealers across the country if possible.  
Cheers


----------



## bubbletop

STRATOVOX said:


> That would be brilliant actually if you have had good experiences with particular dealers.  I would like to contact a number of recommended dealers across the country if possible.
> Cheers


 
In CA I kow of 2 ; Brooks berdan, and Upscale audio fidelity    I know Brooks carries the Dave not sure about Upscale...  Upscale is quite aggressive...


----------



## koven

bubbletop said:


> In CA I kow of 2 ; Brooks berdan, and Upscale audio fidelity    I know Brooks carries the Dave not sure about Upscale...  Upscale is quite aggressive...



Audio High in Mountain View CA is a Chord dealer as well.


----------



## Sonic77

The Source AV is a great place to buy Chord gear, no hassle great guys. Moon audio has Chord gear, but I don't know if they have any in stock. My  experience's with Brook Berdan were terrible, and I don't recommend them at all.


----------



## SCBob

Sonic77 said:


> The Source AV is a great place to buy Chord gear, no hassle great guys. Moon audio has Chord gear, but I don't know if they have any in stock. My  experience's with Brook Berdan were terrible, and I don't recommend them at all.


Moon Audio is not listed as a Chord Choral line dealer so no DAVE but they have had Mojo, Hugo 2 and M Scaler as quickly as anyone else in US has had them and I've purchased each from them. Excellent people to deal with.


----------



## Sonic77

SCBob said:


> Moon Audio is not listed as a Chord Choral line dealer so no DAVE but they have had Mojo, Hugo 2 and M Scaler as quickly as anyone else in US has had them and I've purchased each from them. Excellent people to deal with.


That's right no Dave. I bought two Hugo 2's and a Mojo from them, my battery died in my Mojo, so no more Mojo. I bought my Blu MkII from The Source AV, I experienced a very smooth transaction. I really want to go to their shop it's like a candy store for audio people, thing is I'd probably leave broke


----------



## Thenewguy007

Sonic77 said:


> My  experience's with Brook Berdan were terrible, and I don't recommend them at all.



Pushy sales people?


----------



## jbrownson

I just bought a Dave from Moon (M Scaler too). Very responsive on email, was a good experience. Bought my first hifi gear from The Source before I moved away from LA, they're great too, and have a great selection of things you can try.


----------



## ubs28

Is Thunderbolt 3 better than UBS 3 for audio? I currently don't have devices with UBS 3 anymore to test it unfortunately.


----------



## Drewligarchy (Dec 23, 2018)

Would love opinions on best headphone pairings directly with DAVE.

I'm currently using Stax 009 (via Carbon Amp) and LCD 4.

The 009 is perfect, even with the additional amp as it's incredibly transparent (and obviously necessary).

I've gone back and forth via LCD 4 direct and with Violectric V281. I find the direct connection more transparent, without any potential downsides in terms of bass, headstage - etc.

That said, tastes evolve - and while I love the bass, mids and headstage of the LCD 4 - the treble - which is well documented - seems slightly veiled. I use to enjoy this and the fatigue free listening it provides, but with DAVE, the 009 is also fatigue free and has the best treble I've ever heard in a headphone. 

For that reason, I am considering alternatives to the LCD 4 at the moment to compliment my 009. I do have a good amp (Violectric V281), but if they don't need it all the better. That said - I am willing to consider something that needs to be amped if it's the best headphone. My 009's need to go through an amp and the transparency is still exceptional.

Would love opinions, so I can narrow down my options. It will be really hard to let the LCD 4s go, as they do bass better than any headphones I've tried - and the imaging/headstage is big, unique, and very different than other presentations - and I enjoy it a lot. Maybe it's time to just try something new.

First Tier
1. HifiMan He1000 SE - I've only heard the original HE1000 and had a problem with it's softness and some perceived spikes in the treble from 6-8k. I'm curious if attack has approved and they are less peaky. I've heard some reports of scooped out mids - so interested in thoughts - especially with DAVE. Maybe HE1000v2 as well if it's close, given that the He1000 are $2500 on Amazon right now.
2. Abyss Phi - From what I've read these would do exactly what I'm looking for. Not sure if they can be driven well from DAVE, though - as mentioned - I only hear improvements with the LCD 4 through DAVE. I want to get that Planar bass that Audeze is known for with super transparent highs. Concern is comfort. In my setup, I wear my headphones lying down on a couch, so this might help - or may be impossible with the Abyss.
3. Focal Utopia - I demoed these for a week through the V281 and an Auralic Vega. My biggest complaint was perceived grain in the mids. I may just be completely accustomed to planar and electrostats, which seem completely grain free, but this bothered me. It is possible that they weren't broken in enough. They were new, and not sure what the consensus is with the beryllium drivers. Perhaps through DAVE they are a different story.

Second Tier
1. HD800S - I had the HD800 for a couple days and really enjoyed them years ago, but the treble spike was fatiguing. While these don't compliment the Stax as well, and don't do bass like the planars, they are not obscenely expensive. If they, or the HD800 for that matter, are just a great match - maybe I give them a try.
2. Mr Speakers Ether Flow or Ether 2 - Curious about these two. I have Aeon Flow open and Closed - and I actually think I like the closed better as they are more transparent. The Aeon Flow Closed and Chord Hugo 2 is a great match. Curious whether the Ether Flow / Ether 2 treble and resolution can play with the big boys. The Aeon flow isn't quite there, and shouldn't be for $800 - but it gets damn close.
3. Mr Speakers Voce - Listened to these from a BHSE, and while these certainly can't be plugged into the DAVE - I have a great Estat amp already. I enjoyed them at Canjam listening casually, but don't remember them enough - and may be hard to get a demo.
4. HifiMan Susvara - I know very little about this headphone, but have seen incredibly positive reviews. I may need an amp, but if these are the best of the bunch (in my particular setup), I'd want to give them a try. But if I am going for a HifiMan sound signature - would the H1000SE be the best way to go direct to Dave?

Not familiar as much with some of the newer brands offering, so if anyone has any reccos -please send my way.


----------



## koven

Drewligarchy said:


> Would love opinions on best headphone pairings directly with DAVE.
> 
> I'm currently using Stax 009 (via Carbon Amp) and LCD 4.
> 
> ...



Utopia and DAVE is like PB&J.


----------



## x RELIC x

Drewligarchy said:


> Would love opinions on best headphone pairings directly with DAVE.
> 
> I'm currently using Stax 009 (via Carbon Amp) and LCD 4.
> 
> ...



I haven't heard the HE1000 SE.

Abyss Phi might be very good for what you're looking for but I haven't heard it (just read a lot about it) so I have no comment on it besides the power requirements aren't too much for the DAVE (88dB SPL/mW, 42 Ohm), unless you listen very loudly and/or the track's levels are very low. Preferences may be a different story.

The Utopia with the DAVE, which is what I have, has zero grain as you mentioned with the V281 and the Vega (presuming the source music was mastered well). The Utopia is extremely revealing of upstream gear. 

The ETHER 2 looks like a good candidate and I'd love to hear one myself. The ETHER Flow is smooth compared to the Utopia but it still has good resolution, just not as much as Utopia. ETHER 2 is reported to have more resolution than ETHER Flow.

I've heard the Susvara and it was very well balanced to my ears, but it was played off an amp I am unfamiliar with and it was at a show. Depending on how loud you listen, and the level of the track being played, the DAVE may drive the Susvara to moderate levels, but it would be close.

I've listened to the HD800S and find it unlistenable compared to the Utopia. The brightness was just too much for me and the DAVE won't compensate for that.


----------



## jlbrach

the Abyss is probably the best bet....I have the 281 and dave/blu2 and i go back and forth between the transparency of the dave /blu2 alone and the grunt of the 281...the susvara is phenomenal but must have the 281 as the dave alone isnt up to the task....the utopia has no problem with the dave alone and the transparency is top notch...all fine options


----------



## yellowblue

DAVE (+HMS) and HE-1000SE is a combination made in heaven. There are at least two on the HE-1000SE thread reporting about that. I am one of them. I sold my Utopia because they didn´t get any listening time any more. Be sure though that you listen with a HE-1000SE that is well burnt in (at least 200 hours) because the mids are sounding a little thin and dry in the beginning, plus that the treble is a little overemphasized. This will settle down after a while.
The new HE-1000SE now have much higher efficiency than the older HE-1000's which is a really good fact regarding the DAVE.


----------



## x RELIC x

yellowblue said:


> The new HE-1000SE now have much higher efficiency than the older HE-1000's which is a really good fact regarding the DAVE.



Yes, the 1000se is 6dB more efficient , but electrically speaking either one will do just fine with the DAVE's power output.


----------



## koven

yellowblue said:


> DAVE (+HMS) and HE-1000SE is a combination made in heaven. There are at least two on the HE-1000SE thread reporting about that. I am one of them. I sold my Utopia because they didn´t get any listening time any more. Be sure though that you listen with a HE-1000SE that is well burnt in (at least 200 hours) because the mids are sounding a little thin and dry in the beginning, plus that the treble is a little overemphasized. This will settle down after a while.
> The new HE-1000SE now have much higher efficiency than the older HE-1000's which is a really good fact regarding the DAVE.



Efficiency aside, any thoughts on how it sounds vs Susvara?


----------



## dac64

Dave without a HMS is just like Christmas without turkey!


----------



## seaice (Dec 24, 2018)

Drewligarchy said:


> Would love opinions on best headphone pairings directly with DAVE.
> 
> I'm currently using Stax 009 (via Carbon Amp) and LCD 4.
> 
> ...



Try the Susvara from your V281 (and from Dave directly as well). You may be surprised how good the Susvara is.

I have never heard Abyss Phi or Focal Utopia but I have the whole Stax bunch (see my signature).


----------



## tunes

koven said:


> Utopia and DAVE is like PB&J.


What about Empyrean and DAVE?


----------



## saudio7

tunes said:


> What about Empyrean and DAVE?


This is perfect match.


----------



## tunes

yellowblue said:


> DAVE (+HMS) and HE-1000SE is a combination made in heaven. There are at least two on the HE-1000SE thread reporting about that. I am one of them. I sold my Utopia because they didn´t get any listening time any more. Be sure though that you listen with a HE-1000SE that is well burnt in (at least 200 hours) because the mids are sounding a little thin and dry in the beginning, plus that the treble is a little overemphasized. This will settle down after a while.
> The new HE-1000SE now have much higher efficiency than the older HE-1000's which is a really good fact regarding the DAVE.


Does the addition of the HMS to the DAVE increase the soundstage of the HEKse?  What are the main additionally SQ engancements afforded by the DAVE + HMS vs DAVE alone with the HEKse?  I have heard that the Abyss PHI has an even larger soundstage than the HEKse but not driven as well by the DAVE without an intervening amplifier.  I hope to compare the Abyss, Empyrean and STAX SR009s(Carbon), with DAVE/HMS at the NYC CamJam In February.


----------



## seaice (Dec 24, 2018)

tunes said:


> Does the addition of the HMS to the DAVE increase the soundstage of the HEKse?  What are the main additionally SQ engancements afforded by the DAVE + HMS vs DAVE alone with the HEKse?  I have heard that the Abyss PHI has an even larger soundstage than the HEKse but not driven as well by the DAVE without an intervening amplifier.  I hope to compare the Abyss, Empyrean and STAX SR009s(Carbon), with DAVE/HMS at the NYC CamJam In February.



The addition of the HMS to my Dave/Suvara setup has improved many things. The soundstage is one of them but it is not bigger but rather more 3D and holographic. And I have observed the same with my other HMS/Dave-based headphone setups so I expect that it is similar with a HEK(se).


----------



## bidn

koven said:


> Efficiency aside, any thoughts on how it sounds vs Susvara?



Koven, if this may help you, l compared with my test tracks (mostly metal, and little polyphony and dark ambient)
at my dealer the Dave driving the Susvara, HE1000se, HE6se and LCD-4z (I had tested other headphones with the dealer's Dave at other times, and already a time before the Susvara and 4z with other hps, but the HE1000se and HE6se were not around at previous times).

All our differing opinions depend on what kind of music and at what loudness levels we listen to (probably the latter creates a lot of divergence among opinions re. amplification).
I am anomalous in the sense that I listen at abnormally very low levels of loudness, each time surprising again my dealer who knows of noone like me (and at home I listen at even lower levels than at the dealer...).

Re. personal amplification requirements
In average, I was using on the Dave, at the dealer,  something roughly around - 50 dB for the 4z, - 40dB for the HE1000se, -30dB for the HE6se and -20dB for the Susvara.
Given how much louder most people listen than me, I can assume than for most people the Susvara (and the HE6se) would not be sufficiently driven directly out of the Dave, although that was no issue for me.

Re. my sound impressions on the HE1000se vs Susvara on the Dave:
- I think that they share the same kind of improvements (vs previous HE1000xx and the HE-6) in deep bass impact, which has become impressive and feels more akin to Audeze. This would probably be fantastic for those who like electronic beats or (slow) percussions, but for me this is nothing because I find it way too slow for the pace of most of the metal music I listen to.
- None of them sounds neutral to me, both stray off neutrality in its own manner in the region between 1k and 6k
- re. differences the HE1000se still lack a lot in dynamics, are too soft and laid-back for me. I really try hard to listen a lot to them and to like them because I was never able to like any of the previous HE1000xx, so I was hoping that this improved versions would fit my taste. Unfortunately they could not render for me the dynamics and aggressivity of metal, I could not enjoy them and got bored by them. On the other hand the Susvara (although requiring more amplification) had much better dynamics, was lively and really enjoyable for me. 
(this depends on each person, I own some headphones which I find rather boring... my HD 800, Ether C, Aeon C... so I don't want to buy too many headphones which I don't enjoy much afterwards).

Another previous time I compared the Susvara to other headphones, and like the LCD-4 and 4z it has no chance for me against the much cheaper Clear re. speed, detail, dynamics, imaging, neutrality, etc., not to speak of comparing with the Utopia.

In the end I purchased a HE6se, though it was less detailed and with less sub-bass than the Susvara, I found it to be quite more neutral between 1k and 6k, and much cheaper, so that I could at least add one Hifiman to my collection of headphones.

I also tried the Empyrean out of the Dave (I forgot the loudness level for those), they were "buttery"... "butter" on my head in the sense of their being super comfortable, and also all butter with the sound which was very soft, but too soft for my personal taste.

I see you own the Utopia, for me this is the star which shines, my favorite ones.

Other people listening to other kinds of music and having different tastes may like what I don't like, and vice-versa.

Merry Christmas,
bidn


----------



## jarnopp

seaice said:


> The addition of the HMS to my Dave/Suvara setup has improved many things. The soundstage is one of them but it is not bigger but rather more 3D and holographic. And I have observed the same with my other HMS/Dave-based headphone setups so I expect that it is similar with a HEK(se).



seaice, are you using crossfeed and if so, which setting on your setup?  Thanks!


----------



## koven

bidn said:


> Koven, if this may help you, l compared with my test tracks (mostly metal, and little polyphony and dark ambient)
> at my dealer the Dave driving the Susvara, HE1000se, HE6se and LCD-4z (I had tested other headphones with the dealer's Dave at other times, and already a time before the Susvara and 4z with other hps, but the HE1000se and HE6se were not around at previous times).
> 
> All our differing opinions depend on what kind of music and at what loudness levels we listen to (probably the latter creates a lot of divergence among opinions re. amplification).
> ...



Thanks for your impressions that is helpful yes. Have not tried Empryean but perhaps some day. And wow -50 on Utopia is quite low indeed I vary from -25 to -15 which is probably 70-80dB.


----------



## jlbrach

i have not heard the new SE but i thought the HE-1000 v2 was outstanding and very easy to drive.....the susvara on the other hand simply cannot be properly enjoyed out of the dave without an external amp


----------



## x RELIC x

koven said:


> Thanks for your impressions that is helpful yes. Have not tried Empryean but perhaps some day. And wow -50 on Utopia is quite low indeed I vary from -25 to -15 which is probably 70-80dB.



What type of music? I usually listen around -30 to -35 with the Utopia with albums like Eric Clapton’s Unplugged, or some of Chesky’s binaural music. I measured the output at the earcup and I'm around 85dB average at those volumes, with peaks around 95dB.


----------



## koven

x RELIC x said:


> What type of music? I usually listen around -30 to -35 with the Utopia with albums like Eric Clapton’s Unplugged, or some of Chesky’s binaural music. I measured the output at the earcup and I'm around 85dB average at those volumes, with peaks around 95dB.



Mostly jazz and female vocals. I measured just now and it's about 85dB at -15. Hmm interesting difference..


----------



## seaice

jarnopp said:


> seaice, are you using crossfeed and if so, which setting on your setup?  Thanks!



Yes, the Dave crossfeed is great. I use settings 2 and 3.


----------



## x RELIC x (Dec 24, 2018)

koven said:


> Hmm interesting difference..



Yes, indeed!

Edit: @koven, did you seal the earcup when taking your measurements? Usually measures louder. Also, I have to take a step back on my measurements. I am a quiet listener. See attached, and my apologies.




I’ve been a little distracted lately as I lost my grandfather a couple of days ago (98). Wishing everyone time with their loved ones during this holiday season.


----------



## jlbrach

x RELIC x said:


> What type of music? I usually listen around -30 to -35 with the Utopia with albums like Eric Clapton’s Unplugged, or some of Chesky’s binaural music. I measured the output at the earcup and I'm around 85dB average at those volumes, with peaks around 95dB.



i tend to listen to utopia via my dave/blu2 between -30 and -20 with an occasional above or below


----------



## Jawed

I don't have anything useful to say about pretty much all the headphones you list, but:


Drewligarchy said:


> 3. Focal Utopia - I demoed these for a week through the V281 and an Auralic Vega. My biggest complaint was perceived grain in the mids. I may just be completely accustomed to planar and electrostats, which seem completely grain free, but this bothered me. It is possible that they weren't broken in enough. They were new, and not sure what the consensus is with the beryllium drivers. Perhaps through DAVE they are a different story.


I'd be tempted to say that DAVE is the first grain-free DAC you've ever listened to (Hugo 2 is quite grainy by comparison, for example - comparing both driven via optical into HD 800 S), so Utopia may just have suffered from being too revealing of that problem.

Now playing: Michael Vincent Waller - Lines


----------



## ufospls2

x RELIC x said:


> Yes, indeed!
> 
> Edit: @koven, did you seal the earcup when taking your measurements? Usually measures louder. Also, I have to take a step back on my measurements. I am a quiet listener. See attached, and my apologies.
> 
> ...




Sorry to hear about your grandfather mate. Hope you get to enjoy some tunes over the next few days. Merry Christmas


----------



## koven

x RELIC x said:


> Yes, indeed!
> 
> Edit: @koven, did you seal the earcup when taking your measurements? Usually measures louder. Also, I have to take a step back on my measurements. I am a quiet listener. See attached, and my apologies.
> 
> ...



Ah I am probably measuring improperly then.. I don't seal the mic, I just place it near the driver/inside an earcup. I do listen on the louder side though. 

And sorry to hear that, condolences my friend.


----------



## drew911d

Appologies for how many times this question has been asked, but the answer can change with new tech always being released.  What laptop is best with the DAVE with and without MScaler?  

I know, ask 10 people and get 12 different answers, lol.  I prefer a large screen soo I can also use it for netflix.  Ideas, why's?

Thanks


----------



## Thenewguy007

drew911d said:


> Appologies for how many times this question has been asked, but the answer can change with new tech always being released.  What laptop is best with the DAVE with and without MScaler?
> 
> I know, ask 10 people and get 12 different answers, lol.  I prefer a large screen soo I can also use it for netflix.  Ideas, why's?
> 
> Thanks



Rob only recommended Windows laptop because they can guarantee bitperfect play vs iOS, Android & Linux.
As for suggestions? There are 1000s to choose from every price point.


----------



## dleblanc343 (Dec 26, 2018)

bidn said:


> Koven, if this may help you, l compared with my test tracks (mostly metal, and little polyphony and dark ambient)
> at my dealer the Dave driving the Susvara, HE1000se, HE6se and LCD-4z (I had tested other headphones with the dealer's Dave at other times, and already a time before the Susvara and 4z with other hps, but the HE1000se and HE6se were not around at previous times).
> 
> In the end I purchased a HE6se, though it was less detailed and with less sub-bass than the Susvara, I found it to be quite more neutral between 1k and 6k, and much cheaper, so that I could at least add one Hifiman to my collection of headphones.
> ...



Listening levels are extremely important in describing/comparing headphones in audiophile hobbies. As a salesperson (an honest caring one!), I experience first hand and get a sense of customer's interpreting headphones in different ways and expressing fully well what they hear, despite me not hearing the same. I consider myself having a great ear for nuance, and I have great hearing, but I listen moderate to moderate-loud levels.

All this to say, I'm glad you found the HE6se to be to your your liking, I'd agree it's probably the most dynamic headphone out there for metal, but I think your low level listening really tames down the highs! (for the better). Of all the headphones you've mentioned, the HE6 has the most aggressive 1-6khz range despite what you hear, but they really become problematic once you start turning up the volume.

I have OG HE6 with 3 varieties of pads, 2 different cables, and I've done mods and reverted back in the end because of the aggressive highs. My solution, a really really warm McIntosh MC225 with a modified HiFiMAN speaker tap impedence adaptor! It's bliss, the more musical compliment to my Focal Clears. That being said, my fresh out of the box upgraded HE1000se are audibly on another level to me, so your critiques are really fascinating. Music is very personal.

Also, recently got in stock the Empyrean, and I agree much with your assessment. But it does open up and gain dynamics with volume. I know this headphone will be a huge hit for the audiophiles who listen to more upbeat content, and like to crank up the volume, not to mention it's the sexiest headphones I've ever held. Just not quite my cup of tea in sound


----------



## drew911d

Are there any preferred Windows laptops with optical out?


----------



## rgs9200m (Dec 26, 2018)

Susvara + DAVE + good external amp is outstanding. No fatigue (even for someone very sensitive to digital glare like me), fine fleshed out texture, very nice imaging and air, transparent/solid/controlled bass.
I can only imagine how much an Mscaler would add to this setup, but I haven't heard Mscaling yet...

(That said, it also pays to have a Utopia and/or LCD4 also, as both of these have supreme charms of their own. Very good times for head-fiers IMHO. Many reasons to be  very grateful.)

Oh, and last but not least, it *really really pays* to add a wonderful Danacable Lazuli Reference cable to all to these. 

Just my own ears telling me these things. No vested interests and just trying to help out here.


----------



## saudio7

With Meze Empyrean you don’t need any amp


----------



## jlbrach

there is something to be said for the transparency out of the dave without an external amp....I think the susvara or abyss phi is better than say the utopia but when you take into consideration the fact that the utopia is easily driven by the dave it makes the comparison more difficult....it is preferable to be able to go straight from the dave but there are a handful of HP's in need of an external amp...i myself use the 281


----------



## Triode User

saudio7 said:


> With Meze Empyrean you don’t need any amp



What, they run off candles?


----------



## jlbrach

i think he means an external amp rather than the dave itself


----------



## saudio7

Triode User said:


> What, they run off candles?


No they don’t need external amp and if you try to use one, then you lose details/transparency.


----------



## koven

saudio7 said:


> No they don’t need external amp and if you try to use one, then you lose details/transparency.



How do you like the Meze compared to other flagships? They seem interesting but reviews are pretty scarce I think..


----------



## saudio7 (Dec 26, 2018)

koven said:


> How do you like the Meze compared to other flagships? They seem interesting but reviews are pretty scarce I think..


I compered them to D8000 from Final and HE1000. To my ears they are on the same level as D8000, but with differen presentation. HE1000 sounds thin and distant in comparison, very unnatural, so I sold them. They need some time to sound best, but I think they also need matching source/amp, when I heard them from Cayin HA300 it was not the same headphones.


----------



## Drewligarchy (Dec 26, 2018)

jlbrach said:


> there is something to be said for the transparency out of the dave without an external amp....I think the susvara or abyss phi is better than say the utopia but when you take into consideration the fact that the utopia is easily driven by the dave it makes the comparison more difficult....it is preferable to be able to go straight from the dave but there are a handful of HP's in need of an external amp...i myself use the 281



I agree with the desire to go direct out of DAVE for ultimate transparency, but if you have a really good neutral amp - I think the loss in transparency is overstated. If you want to color the sound a bit, that's a different story.

My point is - while it may be ideal to go DAVE direct - if Susvara or a Stax for instance can't be run direct, I wouldn't discount those phones with the DAVE.

I don't have experience with the Susvara, but I do know my Stax 009 has never sounded so good as with the Dave as a source. I am using a KGSSHV Carbon - so as typical with KG/Birgir designs - it's very much a wire with gain.

The high-end of the 009 is all there, but it's utterly fatigue free - it's amazing.

My point is that it's an excellent DAC, and most DAC's don't have good headphone outs - and those would be judged only when connected to an amp. I agree that if you do have the opportunity to use it you should. But I think direct connection from headphones to DAC is only a part of how great it is, and that some especially resolving phones that can't be played directly from the headphone out benefit immensely from the DAVE.


----------



## Chester Rockwell

Quick question for all you DAVE owners. When crossfeed is enabled, is this applied to all outputs including XLR? I ask as I may look to purchase some electrostatic headphones and amp next year, and I like what cross feed does on the chord DACs.


----------



## ecwl

Chester Rockwell said:


> Quick question for all you DAVE owners. When crossfeed is enabled, is this applied to all outputs including XLR? I ask as I may look to purchase some electrostatic headphones and amp next year, and I like what cross feed does on the chord DACs.


Yes. Crossfeed is applied to RCA & XLR outputs on DAVE when enabled in headphone mode.


----------



## ray-dude

ecwl said:


> Yes. Crossfeed is applied to RCA & XLR outputs on DAVE when enabled in headphone mode.



which makes this a good time for the annual reminder to all DAVE owners with a traditional 2 channel setup to plug in headphones and check that your crossfeed is off (alas, you can only see and change the crossfeed setting when headphones are plugged in)


----------



## jscmd2000

Aren't RCA and XLR outputs disabled when a headphone is plugged in?  Not sure how crossfeed can be applied when disabled... unless crossfeed stays on after headphones are disconnected.


----------



## ray-dude

jscmd2000 said:


> Aren't RCA and XLR outputs disabled when a headphone is plugged in?  Not sure how crossfeed can be applied when disabled... unless crossfeed stays on after headphones are disconnected.




Yes, crossfeed stays on after headphones are disconnected, but the setting is no longer shown (nor changeable) on the display.  

Crossfeed is awesome/required for headphone (at least the ones I've tried), but it really impacts imaging on a 2 channel setup.  Alas, when I first got my DAVE, I ran this way for several months before seeing a post here pointing out the same thing


----------



## jscmd2000

I would have never found that out on my own, thanks!!


----------



## Drewligarchy

Happy almost new year!

Quick question around DSD with my Dave. I am using it with an Auralic Aries and, when playing DSD, very occasionally I'll get a pop or a click.

Interestingly with the Dave I had on demo months ago, it wouldn't pop or click but would have much more frequent drop outs.

I think there was running changes with Dave to address this - which is why I get no dropouts now but occasional pops or clicks - but that's another conversation.

My question is, can anyone recommend a Roon ready streamer, with USB output, that works flawlessly with Dave/DSD? Currently works perfectly via my Mac Mini (running windows), but I want to use a streamer.

I like that the Aries works over wifi - but I do have an ethernet connection - so that would be fine. That said, would like the flexibility of running a streamer via wifi moving forward.

But first things first - what streamers work flawlessly with DSD, have USB outputs, and are Roon ready? Ultra/Micro rendu? Anything like that with wifi? Can I hook up a wireless bridge to Ultra/Micro rendu without sonic degradation?

Thanks!


----------



## jlbrach

i am using the roon nucleus and love it


----------



## ecwl

Drewligarchy said:


> Quick question around DSD with my Dave. I am using it with an Auralic Aries and, when playing DSD, very occasionally I'll get a pop or a click.


From my end, before rushing out to replace your Aries, it’s probably good to verify what the problem is first. I see 3 possibilities. There’s something wrong with the Aries WiFi. There’s something wrong with your WiFi (due to neighbor’s interference which is why the dropout patterns have changed). Or Aries is not compatible with DAVE which is unlikely. 
Going online, AURALiC has mentioned that some Aries have problematic Intel WiFi module that they’re willing to replace through your dealer. They tried to fix it via firmware updates but found that it required a hardware fix. 
I most commonly see dropouts because people are using their 2.4GHz wifi so the signal drops due to their neigbors’ WiFi interference. If your wifi strength is good, using 5GHz wifi band under a different network name usually solves that problem. Best way to verify this is to run an Ethernet wire to the AURALiC and see if the same dsd dropout occurs. If not, the problem is with your wifi. 
As for AURALiC and Chord incompatibility, If you have the Simaudio DAC, you can plug it in and if the issue is the wifi, the simaudio DAC would also pop and dropout. Obviously making sure AURALiC is on the latest firmware should help. 
The main point is that if the problem is with your wifi, especially due to neighbors interference, changing wifi streamer is not going to fix the problem.


----------



## Drewligarchy

ecwl said:


> From my end, before rushing out to replace your Aries, it’s probably good to verify what the problem is first. I see 3 possibilities. There’s something wrong with the Aries WiFi. There’s something wrong with your WiFi (due to neighbor’s interference which is why the dropout patterns have changed). Or Aries is not compatible with DAVE which is unlikely.
> Going online, AURALiC has mentioned that some Aries have problematic Intel WiFi module that they’re willing to replace through your dealer. They tried to fix it via firmware updates but found that it required a hardware fix.
> I most commonly see dropouts because people are using their 2.4GHz wifi so the signal drops due to their neigbors’ WiFi interference. If your wifi strength is good, using 5GHz wifi band under a different network name usually solves that problem. Best way to verify this is to run an Ethernet wire to the AURALiC and see if the same dsd dropout occurs. If not, the problem is with your wifi.
> As for AURALiC and Chord incompatibility, If you have the Simaudio DAC, you can plug it in and if the issue is the wifi, the simaudio DAC would also pop and dropout. Obviously making sure AURALiC is on the latest firmware should help.
> The main point is that if the problem is with your wifi, especially due to neighbors interference, changing wifi streamer is not going to fix the problem.



I am not using the Wifi module on the Aries; it's connected via ethernet. I've used the Aries extensively with other DACs, and never a problem with DSD. Further there is no issues with DXD with Dave, so don't know that it's a bandwidth issue

I think it's a compatibility issue with Aries - Dave - Roon. I should try with lightning DS as it buffers differently.

It's a small thing - not in a rush to switch streamers yet. Just want to understand if it's a problem particular to my Aries. While it could be the Dave, I doubt it, as it's brand new and has no issues with windows PCs.


----------



## ecwl

Drewligarchy said:


> I am not using the Wifi module on the Aries; it's connected via ethernet. I've used the Aries extensively with other DACs, and never a problem with DSD.


Okay. I use Sonore ultraRendu, powered by Uptone LPS-1 power supply. I rarely listen to DSD files but I never get dropouts from them from my DAVE or Blu2. Also, ultraRendu is Ethernet only.


----------



## koven

I have no DSD issues w/ Roon Aries and Dave.


----------



## Lgn3

Drewligarchy said:


> Happy almost new year!
> 
> Quick question around DSD with my Dave. I am using it with an Auralic Aries and, when playing DSD, very occasionally I'll get a pop or a click.
> 
> ...


I know that this does not help with your dropout issues but would you mind commenting on the SQ of the Aries (I am considering the G1) compared to your Mac Mini ? I would also appreciate feedback from other Aries or Melco users who have moved from laptop on battery/DAVE. Having mentioned Melco their models seem well regarded if you cannot solve your Aries issues. Thanks in advance.


----------



## ZappaMan

jlbrach said:


> i am using the roon nucleus and love it


Does it i price sq noticeably or is it just a nice tidy server ?


----------



## zettelsm

Drewligarchy said:


> Happy almost new year!
> 
> Quick question around DSD with my Dave. I am using it with an Auralic Aries and, when playing DSD, very occasionally I'll get a pop or a click.
> 
> ...



I replaced my Auralic Aries with a Sonore microRendu. I had not had any DSD streaming issues with either one, but I found the sound quality to be superior with the microRendu plus the mR supports Roon. Later, when the ultraRendu became available I moved up to the uR. Likewise, better sound quality, no DSD issues. Replacing my Uptone LPS 1 power supply to the uR with a Sonore Signature power supply was also a nice bump up in SQ.

I'm now using an Innuos Zenith running Roon Core. I don't do any upsampling (the Innuos philosophy is, light-weight low-power optimized CPU and OS to avoid large current demands) and have not had any DSD streaming issues from NAS or from the Zenith local drive.

The few times in the past that I've had any glitches, DSD or otherwise, I traced them back to local area network problems. So an eye to having a solid network is prudent.

Hope this helps,

Steve Z


----------



## Galm

I don't think I've ever shared this here but a while back I had the whole Chord family (at the time) in black:



Spoiler


----------



## Drewligarchy

zettelsm said:


> I replaced my Auralic Aries with a Sonore microRendu. I had not had any DSD streaming issues with either one, but I found the sound quality to be superior with the microRendu plus the mR supports Roon. Later, when the ultraRendu became available I moved up to the uR. Likewise, better sound quality, no DSD issues. Replacing my Uptone LPS 1 power supply to the uR with a Sonore Signature power supply was also a nice bump up in SQ.
> 
> I'm now using an Innuos Zenith running Roon Core. I don't do any upsampling (the Innuos philosophy is, light-weight low-power optimized CPU and OS to avoid large current demands) and have not had any DSD streaming issues from NAS or from the Zenith local drive.
> 
> ...




Thanks all for the help.

I listened to a number 64/128 DSD albums last night and didn't experience any issues at all, so perhaps it is either resolved by newer Aries firmware. or so in frequent as to not worry about.

From digging, previous issues seem to be occur partially because Chord Dacs can't receive native DSD from Linux. But if DoP works this well, it's not really much of an issue. I've been eyeing the Innuos, but I really only need a streamer. 

There is a sound quality improvement moving from a mac mini to Aries, but it's minor to my ears. I am using the femto version with the linear power supply. Wondering if jumping to an ultrarendu would yield significant enhancements - or money is better spent elsewhere (HMS, additional Headphones for use with the Dave direct - maybe HE1000SE, Focal Utopia or Meze Empyrean).

Truth be told I am incredibly happy with Dave's performance with my Stax 009 through a KGSSHV Carbon, and my LCD 4 Direct.

Listening to the LCD 4 last night again direct made me realize that there isn't really anything lost going direct, and that the V281 provides a different flavor. I am more and more favoring go direct.

Maybe wait until CanJam in NYC in February to hear some things rather than rush out and buy something new. I bought Dave new, and while I got a good price, it was still some serious coin. Thing is, he makes you want to buy new things for him, because he's so good.


----------



## jlbrach

direct is best for sure if possible,,,,in some cases the amp enhances and in other cases it detracts...the LCD-4 and Abyss Phi are on the borderline...the Susvara MUST have the amp and the Utopia definitely does not require it...that is my take from experience on what i consider the 4 best HP options


----------



## Drewligarchy

jlbrach said:


> direct is best for sure if possible,,,,in some cases the amp enhances and in other cases it detracts...the LCD-4 and Abyss Phi are on the borderline...the Susvara MUST have the amp and the Utopia definitely does not require it...that is my take from experience on what i consider the 4 best HP options



I think that's right, IMHO for the LCD-4. I have the V281 and Auralic Taurus mkII (selling the latter, BTW). With the V281, as it has a touch of warmth, I perceive more Bass quantity - but it's partially because it's just a hair of a darker amp - but it's plenty of bass for me regardless. I do sense more soundstage with the V281, with direct to Dave transparency is significantly approved.

I feel like the Taurus is more wire with gain, therefore, it sounds to me just like the Dave direct out - but with a slight loss of transparency. I think I will likely keep the V281 as it offers another flavor.

How is Susvara with V281 and Dave? I've read mixed reviews - but am really intrigued by the Susvara. If I have to buy another amp, I'd probably opt for a Utopia, He1000SE or Meze Empyrian (of course I'd still have to demo the latter two). I could also try Susvara with Taurus, and not sell that; I'm curious if that has enough juice/synergy as well.

If Susvara is a significant upgrade to HE1000SE, even while amping through V281, I may go in that direction.


----------



## jlbrach

the susvara and dave doesnt work the 281 with the susvara and dave is outstanding


----------



## Drewligarchy

jlbrach said:


> the susvara and dave doesnt work the 281 with the susvara and dave is outstanding



Thanks - sorry if I wasn't clear. I wasn't planning on running susvara direct - but curious of synergy with Dave>V281>Susvara. I'm assuming that's what you are running, and is good news!


----------



## mlxx

So what is the Chord secret little thingy coming out at CES?


----------



## miketlse

mlxx said:


> So what is the Chord secret little thingy coming out at CES?


2019 is Chord's 30th anniversary, and they have already announced their flagship products (Ultima pre and power amps) to celebrate this event.
In addition Chord are not on the CES exhibitor list.
Maybe Chord will do the same as 2018, and announce new products at several shows throughout the year.


----------



## mlxx

It is mentioned here... maybe not at CES then or isn't a new thing.


----------



## Mojo ideas

miketlse said:


> 2019 is Chord's 30th anniversary, and they have already announced their flagship products (Ultima pre and power amps) to celebrate this event.
> In addition Chord are not on the CES exhibitor list.
> Maybe Chord will do the same as 2018, and announce new products at several shows throughout the year.


Happy New Year everyone! Overall we exhibit and attend around forty five shows per annum world wide including all the headfi shows and although we enjoy the CES in LasVegas we’ve noticed a tendency of ever increasing exhibition costs but fewer press and relevant attendees over these last years. Therefore we decided to  give the CES a break and to look into the Namm Anaheim Pro show later in this month.


----------



## x RELIC x

Mojo ideas said:


> Happy New Year everyone!



Happy New Year John!


----------



## miketlse

Mojo ideas said:


> Happy New Year everyone!


Happy New Year John, plus the rest of the Chord team.


----------



## musickid

is there any new product TBC at the january show?


----------



## naynay (Jan 5, 2019)

"I also tried a Chord DAVE with a pair of Ether 2s and was somewhat disappointed. While the resolving power of the DAC seemed greater than the Hugo TT 2, the headphone output did not seem quite as powerful and I didn’t have the same sense of musical engagement with this setup. Looking at the specs, the DAVE has quite a bit less power than the Hugo series, and a Cavalli and DAVE setup at the Mr. Speakers table sounded superb, so I suspect the DAVE benefits more from outboard amplifiers than the Hugo TT 2."

Those were the words of Grover Neville InnerFidelity CANJAM RMAF and as i am considering upgrading my Hugo 2 TT for a Dave and only using Headphones direct and i am aware the output is much lower with Dave it still concerns me that he felt it was less engaging musically than the Hugo 2 TT?

Update: I have read the review again and it looks as though the Hugo TT2 was used with M Scaler and the Dave without so maybe that explains his outcome?


----------



## ufospls2

naynay said:


> "I also tried a Chord DAVE with a pair of Ether 2s and was somewhat disappointed. While the resolving power of the DAC seemed greater than the Hugo TT 2, the headphone output did not seem quite as powerful and I didn’t have the same sense of musical engagement with this setup. Looking at the specs, the DAVE has quite a bit less power than the Hugo series, and a Cavalli and DAVE setup at the Mr. Speakers table sounded superb, so I suspect the DAVE benefits more from outboard amplifiers than the Hugo TT 2."
> 
> Those were the words of Grover Neville InnerFidelity CANJAM RMAF and as i am considering upgrading my Hugo 2 TT for a Dave and only using Headphones direct and i am aware the output is much lower with Dave it still concerns me that he felt it was less engaging musically than the Hugo 2 TT?



What headphone will you be using?


----------



## naynay

ufospls2 said:


> What headphone will you be using?


Hi,Meze Empyrean.


----------



## xxx1313 (Jan 5, 2019)

naynay said:


> Hi,Meze Empyrean.



DAVE has MORE than enough power for the Meze Empyrean. I am listening to it at -32db to -22db, so there is much more than enough headroom. The Emyprean ist just as easy to drive as the Focal Utopia. DAVE + Empyrean is pure bliss (and preferrable to Hugo TT2 + Empyrean, imo).


----------



## Thenewguy007

Anyone know how to use a smartphone as a source?
I think Rob said he even used his phone as a source connected to the Dave.

I tried connecting my android phone via micro-USB to UBS to the back of another DAC that was also connected to a amp.
When I played music, the music just played through the phone & not through the headphones that was connected to the amp.


----------



## miketlse

Thenewguy007 said:


> Anyone know how to use a smartphone as a source?
> I think Rob said he even used his phone as a source connected to the Dave.
> 
> I tried connecting my android phone via micro-USB to UBS to the back of another DAC that was also connected to a amp.
> When I played music, the music just played through the phone & not through the headphones that was connected to the amp.


have a read through the faq in post #3 of the mojo thread. the info about phone settings should be generic - i think the settings relating to output device are probably relevant.


----------



## lcasadonte

Thenewguy007 said:


> Anyone know how to use a smartphone as a source?
> I think Rob said he even used his phone as a source connected to the Dave.
> 
> I tried connecting my android phone via micro-USB to UBS to the back of another DAC that was also connected to a amp.
> When I played music, the music just played through the phone & not through the headphones that was connected to the amp.


Was the cable an OTG cable?


----------



## musicday

xxx1313 said:


> DAVE has MORE than enough power for the Meze Empyrean. I am listening to it at -32db to -22db, so there is much more than enough headroom. The Emyprean ist just as easy to drive as the Focal Utopia. DAVE + Empyrean is pure bliss (and preferrable to Hugo TT2 + Empyrean, imo).


I have to admit that the Empyrean with Dave is something rather special, that I can live with for a long time.Very musical, engaging, addictive.


----------



## masterpfa (Jan 19, 2019)

Thenewguy007 said:


> Anyone know how to use a smartphone as a source?
> I think Rob said he even used his phone as a source connected to the Dave.
> 
> I tried connecting my android phone via micro-USB to UBS to the back of another DAC that was also connected to a amp.
> When I played music, the music just played through the phone & not through the headphones that was connected to the amp.



I would imagine if you want to use your phone as a source you would need to have an app on your phone that can output music via OTG for example UAPP, Hiby Onkyo HF Player and many others depending on operating system iOS or Abdroid


When connecting via an OTG cable you should be given an option to output from that  installed app


----------



## skootb

I use my iPhone with the Dave. iPhone > Apple camera adapter > usb to dave


----------



## musickid (Jan 20, 2019)

for dave owners if you had to live with a h2 or tt2 with hms vs a standalone dave what would you go for and most importantly why? im my case a dave purchase excludes the addition of the mscaler due to finances? feedback appreciated mk. i'm running h2/hms now and i am familiar through quick listening sessions to dave in store but only very short though and auditioning again is difficult. if i did go for a dave in the near future i would trade in my h2/hms towards it. but on reflection the mscaler is really great you would end up somehow adding one to dave!


----------



## naynay

Hi,have ordered a Dave should have it in next few weeks and would like to ask what users have for the mains side.
I noticed looking at the online manual it takes the Kettle lead type power cable have any found an improvement changing this and if so what type?or is it better to go for a Power conditioner and use the supplied lead?
Any info appreciated.
Thank you.


----------



## musickid

will you be adding an mscaler nay?


----------



## naynay

musickid said:


> will you be adding an mscaler nay?


Hi,i will be adding M Scaler.


----------



## musickid

immediately or later. i'm interested how folk are managing the upgrades.


----------



## naynay

musickid said:


> immediately or later. i'm interested how folk are managing the upgrades.


It will be a little later.
Qutest, TT2 was enough audio pleasure to go for Dave.


----------



## musickid

good luck with dave!


----------



## AndrewOld

naynay said:


> Hi,have ordered a Dave should have it in next few weeks and would like to ask what users have for the mains side.
> I noticed looking at the online manual it takes the Kettle lead type power cable have any found an improvement changing this and if so what type?or is it better to go for a Power conditioner and use the supplied lead?
> Any info appreciated.
> Thank you.



I use the mains lead it came with.


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> I use the mains lead it came with.



So do I. No other power filtering or mains gizmos either.


----------



## Torq

musickid said:


> for dave owners if you had to live with a h2 or tt2 with hms vs a standalone dave what would you go for and most importantly why?



I'd go with just a DAVE over M-Scaler -> Hugo 2 (or M-Scaler -> Qutest).

I've not gotten to try the Hugo TT 2 with an M-Scaler outside of show conditions, so it's possible I'd take _that_ over just a DAVE - though probably not very likely as I could find a used DAVE for very close to what the Hugo TT 2 costs right now (if the comparison were to a used Hugo TT 2 at some point in the future that would obviously change).

As to why ... I find that DAVE on its own still provides a more resolving, nuanced, and enjoyable overall result along with having better micro-dynamics and sense of scale/power (not talking about _output_ power) to boot.  Hugo 2 _might_ benefit a bit more over DAVE with the addition of an M-Scaler, but still doesn't reach quite the same level as a pure DAVE for me.

Beyond that, I don't really care for Hugo 2 on the desktop (nothing to do with its sound).  Love it in a *transportable* role, but on a desktop I find it ergonomically irritating - especially with the M-Scaler.  And while I can certainly see people using it both on-the-go/transportably, and then putting it back into their desktop rig for more considered listening, that particular use case, ideal as it is for Hugo 2, is something I'd personally get too irritated by with the plugging/unplugging (yes, even if it was just once a day - I'm fussy that way).


----------



## rgs9200m

I second Torq's comments above on the unique, almost inscrutable goodness of the DAVE. 
Sometimes a component is so good, it's really not worth second-guessing whether substituting it for something else to save a modest amount of money is a wise move, because you'll always be wondering if you did the right thing.


----------



## SCBob

rgs9200m said:


> I second Torq's comments above on the unique, almost inscrutable goodness of the DAVE.
> Sometimes a component is so good, it's really not worth second-guessing whether substituting it for something else to save a modest amount of money is a wise move, because you'll always be wondering if you did the right thing.


I agree with getting the DAVE now. Once your wallet settles down without a doubt you will follow this with the purchase of the HMS. You will read too much about it not too. Enjoy!


----------



## musicday

Some people, I think, they still prefer the Hugo TT 2 over Dave beacuse is more versatile, easier to transport , has more power output and can be used with external USB battery pack. For me must be Dave, I love everything about it, sounds really good with my Empyrean and is powerful enough to drive Omega loudspeakers.
I don't own one but I hope I will this year


----------



## musickid (Jan 20, 2019)

join the club. the mscaler is so fantastic though you would just end up wanting to add one to dave!!


----------



## musicday




----------



## naynay

musicday said:


>


Is that colour available to order now on the Empyrean?


----------



## musicday

naynay said:


> Is that colour available to order now on the Empyrean?


I don't know, sorry. Best is to ask them directly.


----------



## xxx1313

musicday said:


>



Another picture of DAVE + EMPYREAN, but no prototype this time.  A really great combination, imo.


----------



## musicday (Jan 25, 2019)

xxx1313 said:


> Another picture of DAVE + EMPYREAN, but no prototype this time.  A really great combination, imo.


Something Special,  Made in Romania , that happens to be the best sounding headphone in the world of it's kind.


----------



## tunes (Jan 27, 2019)

Can the DAVE be used with headphones having a balanced cable?   Will I need to get a new cable or is there an adapter to go from an existing 4.4 mm TRRRS plug to use two (R and L) XLR female plugs?  It’s a pain that the balanced outputs are on the back of DAVE instead of on the front and then cannot use the XLR out to drive Omega speakers.  Is there a perceptible difference between single ended and balanced out from DAVE?  Should I just get an adapter to go from the 4.4 TRRRS to SE 1/4 in plug?  Will this degrade anything?


----------



## JaZZ (Jan 27, 2019)

Unlike with the TT₂ DAVE's balanced outputs are not suitable for headphones, just high-impedance loads. So an adapter from TRRRS to single-ended ¼" will be the solution. Every adapter causes some minor sound degradation, but probably you won't notice it, the less so without direct comparison. Of course you could also reterminate the cable with a ¼" TRS plug...


----------



## koven

musicday said:


>





xxx1313 said:


> Another picture of DAVE + EMPYREAN, but no prototype this time.  A really great combination, imo.



I  see you both use crossfeed off? Just with the Meze or in general?


----------



## musicday

I used the ceossfeed off with the Meze and I liked how it sounds. Tried same with HD820 but resolution, the sound was dry and not of my liking.


----------



## Tom Blake

koven said:


> I  see you both use crossfeed off? Just with the Meze or in general?


The Empyrean is the first headphone that I have found sounds best with Crossfeed off on DAVE. Everything else I have listened to I have preferred Crossfeed set to 2 or 3. Advantage is I don't have to remember to turn it off when listening to the Empyrean and switching to speakers!


----------



## spotforscott

Anyone with an Empyrean, compare it to the ABYSS PHI through DAVE? A lot of comments about Empyrean vs focal, audeze and hifiman cans but nothing comparing it to the Abyss. I am particularly curious about comparative performance vs DAVE because the Empyrean is so much more efficient...


----------



## xxx1313 (Jan 27, 2019)

koven said:


> I  see you both use crossfeed off? Just with the Meze or in general?



Just with Empyrean. I use crossfeed 1 with Utopia.



Tom Blake said:


> The Empyrean is the first headphone that I have found sounds best with Crossfeed off on DAVE.



+1. Same impression here.


----------



## koven

musicday said:


> I used the ceossfeed off with the Meze and I liked how it sounds. Tried same with HD820 but resolution, the sound was dry and not of my liking.





Tom Blake said:


> The Empyrean is the first headphone that I have found sounds best with Crossfeed off on DAVE. Everything else I have listened to I have preferred Crossfeed set to 2 or 3. Advantage is I don't have to remember to turn it off when listening to the Empyrean and switching to speakers!





xxx1313 said:


> Just with Empyrean. I use crossfeed 1 with Utopia.
> 
> +1. Same impression here.



Interesting! I have the Empyrean en route, will give no crossfeed a shot, I typically use 2-3.


----------



## tunes

JaZZ said:


> Unlike with the TT₂ DAVE's balanced outputs are not suitable for headphones, just high-impedance loads. So an adapter from TRRRS to single-ended ¼" will be the solution. Every adapter causes some minor sound degradation, but probably you won't notice it, the less so without direct comparison. Of course you could also reterminate the cable with a ¼" TRS plug...


Thanks for the info. The problem is that I wanted to use my HEK


JaZZ said:


> Unlike with the TT₂ DAVE's balanced outputs are not suitable for headphones, just high-impedance loads. So an adapter from TRRRS to single-ended ¼" will be the solution. Every adapter causes some minor sound degradation, but probably you won't notice it, the less so without direct comparison. Of course you could also reterminate the cable with a ¼" TRS plug...


Thanks for that detailed response.  My dilemma is that I have an expensive after market cable that is single ended in the 1/4” plug for the DAVE but I also want to use the HEKse with a DAP that has balanced out.  I use the DAP only when on vacation so even though I can reterminate the single ended cable with 4.4 mm TRRRS I would then need to use a TRRRS to 1/4” plug adapter with unknown effect on SQ with DAVE.  So I may just have to spring for a new balanced cable.


----------



## Mikey99

spotforscott said:


> Anyone with an Empyrean, compare it to the ABYSS PHI through DAVE? A lot of comments about Empyrean vs focal, audeze and hifiman cans but nothing comparing it to the Abyss. I am particularly curious about comparative performance vs DAVE because the Empyrean is so much more efficient...


I listened to both, but using an amp in between. I had a clear preference for the Abyss. I posted my comparison in the Empyrean thread.


----------



## jonstatt

DAVE killer from Sony for the same price point of 8000 UK pounds???
https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/walkman/dmp-z1#editorial_image_265113465795520044972143


----------



## mlxx

jonstatt said:


> DAVE killer from Sony for the same price point of 8000 UK pounds???
> https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/walkman/dmp-z1#editorial_image_265113465795520044972143



What is so good about it?
Have you seen the specs? Might kill the mojo, that's about it.


----------



## x RELIC x

jonstatt said:


> DAVE killer from Sony for the same price point of 8000 UK pounds???
> https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/walkman/dmp-z1#editorial_image_265113465795520044972143





mlxx said:


> What is so good about it?
> Have you seen the specs? Might kill the mojo, that's about it.



DAVE? No way.

Kill Mojo? Hmmmm, not sure with the off-the-shelf AK DAC chips in the Sony. Still, I’m sure there are people that will enjoy it.


----------



## mlxx

x RELIC x said:


> Kill Mojo? Hmmmm, not sure with the off-the-shelf AK DAC chips in the Sony. Still, I’m sure there are people that will enjoy it.



I am not sure either, why I said might. It also has op amps and not much power.
It is the second biggest DAP I have seen though.


----------



## x RELIC x

mlxx said:


> I am not sure either, why I said might. It also has op amps and not much power.
> It is the second biggest DAP I have seen though.



I actually can’t figure out where they get the price tag from....


----------



## jonstatt

mlxx said:


> What is so good about it?
> Have you seen the specs? Might kill the mojo, that's about it.



There was a healthy amount of sarcasm in my original post. Clearly overpriced.


----------



## x RELIC x

jonstatt said:


> There was a healthy amount of sarcasm in my original post. Clearly overpriced.



Lol, clearly went right over my head!


----------



## Whazzzup

What isn’t over priced these days. Have not met a flagship or a upgrade without jaw dropping price increases.


----------



## musicday

jonstatt said:


> DAVE killer from Sony for the same price point of 8000 UK pounds???
> https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/walkman/dmp-z1#editorial_image_265113465795520044972143


Will take Sony another 20 years to catch up with Chord Electronics, and only if they stop developing great DACs such as DAVE


----------



## audio_1

musicday said:


> Will take Sony another 20 years to catch up with Chord Electronics, and only if they stop developing great DACs such as DAVE



They never will catch up without Rob Watts!


----------



## tunes

audio_1 said:


> They never will catch up without Rob Watts!


Has anyone had a good experience driving the Abyss PHI direct from DAVE or is an amp an absolute necessity to get the best sound out it the HMS is added to the chain? 

Also wondering how well the STAX SR009 with any amp pairs with the DAVE with HMS?


----------



## tunes

simorag said:


> *Re: Using an external headphone amp with the DAVE and Abyss Phi*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How does the  Eleven XI Audio Formula S amp compare to the Master 9 which is a much more reasonably priced amp, especially if for most listening the DAVE is great alone.  I also wonder what the HMS adds to the Abyss PHI experience without an amp?


----------



## JM1979

I made the mistake of listening to a Dave today for the first time. My bank account is going to hate me. It shouldn’t have been a surprise since I owned a mojo and currently have a Hugo 2 but man the higher up the Chord ladder you go, it’s impressive. 

The thing that really knocks me out is how clean and pure it is. Just completely natural. And that wasn’t even with TOTL headphones pluggged in.


----------



## naynay

JM1979 said:


> I made the mistake of listening to a Dave today for the first time. My bank account is going to hate me. It shouldn’t have been a surprise since I owned a mojo and currently have a Hugo 2 but man the higher up the Chord ladder you go, it’s impressive.
> 
> The thing that really knocks me out is how clean and pure it is. Just completely natural. And that wasn’t even with TOTL headphones pluggged in.


Have you placed the order?


----------



## JM1979

naynay said:


> Have you placed the order?



Not yet. I need to spend the night listening to my Hugo 2 and convincing myself not to spend the money 

I do think I’ll consider getting one in the next 6 months. It also gave me the urge to really give the Hugo TT2 a solid look. I’ll also have to read up on MScaler + HugoTT2 combo too.


----------



## simorag (Jan 30, 2019)

tunes said:


> How does the  Eleven XI Audio Formula S amp compare to the Master 9 which is a much more reasonably priced amp, especially if for most listening the DAVE is great alone.  I also wonder what the HMS adds to the Abyss PHI experience without an amp?



I haven't compared the Formula S back to back with AGD amp, only can report about DAVE direct vs. DAVE used as a DAC combined with Audio GD NOS11 used as an amp. The amp section is derived from the Master 9 but presumably M9 would perform better so take my impressions with more than the usual pinch of salt.

When I tried DAVE + NOS11 to my Abyss Phi, I felt that I was not getting any better than DAVE direct. In fact, I felt I was loosing too much of the DAVE's magical transparency, 3D ambience and speed (as in the ability of handling transients - attack and decay - in a very natural and effortless fashion).

With the Formula S + Powerman, the trade-off is more compelling, and with some tracks / music types / listening levels I feel the XI Audio combo offers an overall better experience than DAVE direct. That said, I would not consider adding an amp to the DAVE "necessary" to drive the Abyss Phi in general, as it is very much dependent to what someone likes, his/her hearing sensitivity etc.. (I still do a good part of my listening with HMS+DAVE direct). I would recommend trying before buying in this case even more than usual, because there is the serious risk that adding an amp actually makes things worse.

Coming to the M Scaler, the improvement of the listening experience compared to DAVE alone - with or without an amp in the chain - is in general very noticeable in many ways to my ears (with most tracks). When it comes to the paring with the Phi in particular, I would mention better treble (more refined and natural), warmer, more present and meatier vocals and improved bass definition and resolution.
My very first impression was that sub-bass response was a bit less deep, but I then I realized (even with the help of specific tracks from Stereophile and Chesky test CDs) that the Phi bass extension with the HMS in the chain is as good as ever, and the perception of a slightly less bass was due to the tightness and articulation improvement.

Double bass plucks, electric bass harmonics and phrasing are more realistic with the HMS in place.

After all, if I want my skull rattled with some rap, electronic or organ music I can always adjust the pad positioning on the Phi, where a slight opening around the lower part of my jaws produces a very satisfying physical bass feeling, close to a subwoofer experience (within the limitations of a headphone, of course).


----------



## tunes

simorag said:


> I haven't compared the Formula S back to back with AGD amp, only can report about DAVE direct vs. DAVE used as a DAC combined with Audio GD NOS11 used as an amp. The amp section is derived from the Master 9 but presumably M9 would perform better so take my impressions with more than the usual pinch of salt.
> 
> When I tried DAVE + NOS11 to my Abyss Phi, I felt that I was not getting any better than DAVE direct. In fact, I felt I was loosing too much of the DAVE's magical transparency, 3D ambience and speed (as in the ability of handling transients - attack and decay - in a very natural and effortless fashion).
> 
> ...


Are you using a balanced cable on the PHI.  The DAVE only has balanced XLR outputs on the back??


----------



## simorag

tunes said:


> Are you using a balanced cable on the PHI.  The DAVE only has balanced XLR outputs on the back??



I am using an XLR cable direct to the Formula S, while connecting to the DAVE headphone jack via the XLR to 1/4'' adapter that came with the Abyss Lite package. Based on several posts on this thread, including Rob Watts posts, the XLR output of the DAVE should not be used with headphones.


----------



## tunes

Still searching for the best amp synergy with DAVE and Abyss PHI that is most transparent, not over $2K budget and comes with a remote control for volume.  

Thanks


----------



## iDesign (Jan 31, 2019)

Out of curiosity, among DAVE owners considering adding an M Scaler, are you opting for the Blu Mk II, Hugo M Scaler, or waiting for another Chord product with an M Scaler?

Although Blu Mk IIs have significantly depreciated in value (a 50% plummet), they still seem to sell in about three to four weeks in the classifieds and I assume DAVE owners are buying them. That surprises me because they’re still selling for slightly more than the full MSRP of the Hugo M Scaler.

I’m curious to hear from DAVE owners and to know which M Scaler people are lining up to purchase?


----------



## STR-1

iDesign said:


> Out of curiosity, among DAVE owners considering adding an M Scaler, are you opting for the Blu Mk II, Hugo M Scaler, or waiting for another Chord product with an M Scaler?
> 
> Although Blu Mk IIs have significantly depreciated in value (a 50% plummet), they still seem to sell in about three to four weeks in the classifieds and I assume DAVE owners are buying them. That surprises me because they’re still selling for slightly more than the full MSRP of the Hugo M Scaler.
> 
> I’m curious to hear from DAVE owners and to know which M Scaler people are lining up to purchase?


If CD-replay was important to me I would not have traded in my Blu 2 for an M Scaler and Hugo TT 2.  It is challenging to get music fed into any of the various Blu2/M Scaler inputs to sound as good as playing CDs on the Blu2.


----------



## jlbrach

If you choose to use an external amp you cannot beat the violectric 281 IMHO...packs a wallop....sounds great and terrific remote


----------



## GryphonGuy

iDesign said:


> Out of curiosity, among DAVE owners considering adding an M Scaler, are you opting for the Blu Mk II, Hugo M Scaler, or waiting for another Chord product with an M Scaler?
> 
> Although Blu Mk IIs have significantly depreciated in value (a 50% plummet), they still seem to sell in about three to four weeks in the classifieds and I assume DAVE owners are buying them. That surprises me because they’re still selling for slightly more than the full MSRP of the Hugo M Scaler.
> 
> I’m curious to hear from DAVE owners and to know which M Scaler people are lining up to purchase?



I'm waiting patiently for the Davina project to bear fruits as I do not have a pre-amp (it died over a year ago and I now use DAVE direct to amplifier) and my analogue hi-fi (turntable and TT pre-amp) is gathering dust....waiting.

Regards
GG


----------



## Torq

tunes said:


> Still searching for the best amp synergy with DAVE and Abyss PHI that is most transparent, not over $2K budget and comes with a remote control for volume.



The only solid-state amplifier I've been able to properly audition, that is audibly transparent* and colorless compared to the direct output from DAVE, *and* that can also drive the Abyss Phi (w/ CC pads in my case) properly, is the SPL Phonitor X.  While the "X" is above your budget, the "XE" version comes in at $1 under it.  You can use any IR remote with it for volume control (it does not include one).  Now, I've not heard the "XE" model, but as I understand it the headphone amplifier portion is the same as that in the X.

I've tried (proper, at-home, audition), owned, or still own, the Pro iCAN, GS X Mk2, Moon HA430, Ragnarok, V281, HP1 and a couple of Audio-GD models, and the Phonitor X was the only one I felt was not losing/coloring anything _audibly_ vs. DAVE-direct.

It drives the Abyss Phi beautifully - I have to go to big tube amps to get a result I prefer.

---
*I'm not saying that any amplifier doesn't have some impact on transparency, simply that the Phonitor X is the only solid-state unit I've heard where _I could not audibly discern_ any loss of transparency vs. DAVE.


----------



## tunes

Torq said:


> The only solid-state amplifier I've been able to properly audition, that is audibly transparent* and colorless compared to the direct output from DAVE, *and* that can also drive the Abyss Phi (w/ CC pads in my case) properly, is the SPL Phonitor X.  While the "X" is above your budget, the "XE" version comes in at $1 under it.  You can use any IR remote with it for volume control (it does not include one).  Now, I've not heard the "XE" model, but as I understand it the headphone amplifier portion is the same as that in the X.
> 
> I've tried (proper, at-home, audition), owned, or still own, the Pro iCAN, GS X Mk2, Moon HA430, Ragnarok, V281, HP1 and a couple of Audio-GD models, and the Phonitor X was the only one I felt was not losing/coloring anything _audibly_ vs. DAVE-direct.
> 
> ...


Sounds like excellent advice and review and trust it with your first hand experience with so many other headphone amps. Is there a best price place to pick one up?


----------



## tunes

Torq said:


> The only solid-state amplifier I've been able to properly audition, that is audibly transparent* and colorless compared to the direct output from DAVE, *and* that can also drive the Abyss Phi (w/ CC pads in my case) properly, is the SPL Phonitor X.  While the "X" is above your budget, the "XE" version comes in at $1 under it.  You can use any IR remote with it for volume control (it does not include one).  Now, I've not heard the "XE" model, but as I understand it the headphone amplifier portion is the same as that in the X.
> 
> I've tried (proper, at-home, audition), owned, or still own, the Pro iCAN, GS X Mk2, Moon HA430, Ragnarok, V281, HP1 and a couple of Audio-GD models, and the Phonitor X was the only one I felt was not losing/coloring anything _audibly_ vs. DAVE-direct.
> 
> ...


Do you know if it can drive very efficient Alnico single driver speakers that I now have using the XLR outputs from the DAVE? It would also be great to connect DAVE to the PHONITOR XE via XLR out but the DAVE is not balanced so is the headphone output on the PHONITOR XE still balanced for headphones in this configuration?


----------



## x RELIC x (Feb 2, 2019)

tunes said:


> Do you know if it can drive very efficient Alnico single driver speakers that I now have using the XLR outputs from the DAVE? It would also be great to connect DAVE to the PHONITOR XE via XLR out but the DAVE is not balanced so is the headphone output on the PHONITOR XE still balanced for headphones in this configuration?



I’m not @Torq, but are you using the Super Alnico driven directly from DAVE’s XLR outputs? You shouldn’t. The XLR shouldn’t even be used for headphones given their very low max Current output of 0.05mA (if my memory serves me well). The DAVE’s XLR were only designed to feed an external amp.

The DAVE is a SE design and balanced will not improve things if using it directly. As for adding an external amp then the XLR may be the best output depending on the external amp’s topology.

Edit: See below...



Rob Watts said:


> Categorically do not do this. The balanced drive has insufficient current drive and is intended to drive power amps only.


----------



## x RELIC x (Feb 2, 2019)

Torq said:


> The only solid-state amplifier I've been able to properly audition, that is audibly transparent* and colorless compared to the direct output from DAVE, *and* that can also drive the Abyss Phi (w/ CC pads in my case) properly, is the SPL Phonitor X.  While the "X" is above your budget, the "XE" version comes in at $1 under it.  You can use any IR remote with it for volume control (it does not include one).  Now, I've not heard the "XE" model, but as I understand it the headphone amplifier portion is the same as that in the X.
> 
> I've tried (proper, at-home, audition), owned, or still own, the Pro iCAN, GS X Mk2, Moon HA430, Ragnarok, V281, HP1 and a couple of Audio-GD models, and the Phonitor X was the only one I felt was not losing/coloring anything _audibly_ vs. DAVE-direct.
> 
> ...



How do you like the crossfeed on the Phonitor? Compared to DAVE’s? I almost purchased a SPL Phonitor way back but never ended up getting one.


----------



## tunes

x RELIC x said:


> I’m not @Torq, but are you using the Super Alnico driven directly from DAVE’s XLR outputs? You shouldn’t. The XLR shouldn’t even be used for headphones given their very low max Current output of 0.05mA (if my memory serves me well). The DAVE’s XLR were only designed to feed an external amp.
> 
> The DAVE is a SE design and balanced will not improve things if using it directly. As for adding an external amp then the XLR may be the best output depending on the external amp’s topology.
> 
> Edit: See below...


My error:  I am using the XLR out on the DAVE to drive powered subwoofers and the RCA out to Drive the efficient Alnico single driver speakers.   Is this configuration ok?


----------



## Torq

x RELIC x said:


> How do you like the crossfeed on the Phonitor? I almost purchased a SPL Phonitor way back but never ended up getting one.



For non-critical listening (i.e. when I'm not auditioning/reviewing something) I quite like it.  It works better with some material and some headphones, than others of course.  I would day I use it more than I expected I would (I almost never use(d) the crossfeed on DAVE for example), but not enough that I would consider it a must-have feature - in other words I'd still have bought the Phonitor X without it.  It's more convincing than the 3D+ feature on the Pro iCAN, with less tonal impact.  And it can be the difference between a day-long listening session (as background music) being very mellow or winding up being fatiguing - though that's mostly the case when listening to music that tends to be a be a bit "three-blob" in the first place.

If I really want a two-channel/dimensional delivery though, I just use my speaker rig.

All that said, most of my listening-for-pleasure time is via the M-Scaler -> DAVE -> Woo WA234 MkII chain - and I never have crossfeed enabled on DAVE in that case.


----------



## x RELIC x

Torq said:


> For non-critical listening (i.e. when I'm not auditioning/reviewing something) I quite like it.  It works better with some material and some headphones, than others of course.  I would day I use it more than I expected I would (I almost never use(d) the crossfeed on DAVE for example), but not enough that I would consider it a must-have feature - in other words I'd still have bought the Phonitor X without it.  It's more convincing than the 3D+ feature on the Pro iCAN, with less tonal impact.  And it can be the difference between a day-long listening session (as background music) being very mellow or winding up being fatiguing - though that's mostly the case when listening to music that tends to be a be a bit "three-blob" in the first place.
> 
> If I really want a two-channel/dimensional delivery though, I just use my speaker rig.
> 
> All that said, most of my listening-for-pleasure time is via the M-Scaler -> DAVE -> Woo WA234 MkII chain - and I never have crossfeed enabled on DAVE in that case.



Awesome reply, thanks!


----------



## x RELIC x

tunes said:


> My error:  I am using the XLR out on the DAVE to drive powered subwoofers and the RCA out to Drive the efficient Alnico single driver speakers.   Is this configuration ok?



Ah, makes sense. I was a bit confused by the wording. Should be fine according to others that have used the same configuration.


----------



## Torq

tunes said:


> Do you know if it can drive very efficient Alnico single driver speakers that I now have using the XLR outputs from the DAVE? It would also be great to connect DAVE to the PHONITOR XE via XLR out but the DAVE is not balanced so is the headphone output on the PHONITOR XE still balanced for headphones in this configuration?



The Phonitor X and XE's balanced and singled-ended headphone outputs both work regardless of whether you feed it a single-ended or balanced signal.

Bear in mind that the big difference between the X and XE models is that the "X" has pre-amp outputs and the "XE" *does not *(instead it has an extra pair of headphones outputs on the back).  I would not attempt to drive passive speakers directly from the pre-outs on the "X", nor from the headphone outputs on the "XE".  That'd be something to talk to SPL themselves about.

For DAVE itself ... I only use the RCA and XLR outputs into my headphone amplifiers (based which they respond best to, given that DAVE is not intrinsically balanced, as @x RELIC x points out.


----------



## tunes

musicday said:


> When used straight from Dave or even Hugo 2 you want very high efficiency speakers, 94 dB and above. With tower models been told that you don't really need a subwoofer as there is more bass in a larger cabinet.Even top range Omegas won't go down below 35 Hz, but is more down to listening setup, and speaker build, rather then numbers.
> Is always worth listening first if possible, to know if the sound suits your needs


Can connecting Omega tower speakers via the RCA out jacks on the DAVE cause any
Damage to DAVE or void the warrantee??


----------



## iDesign

tunes said:


> Can connecting Omega tower speakers via the RCA out jacks on the DAVE cause any
> Damage to DAVE or void the warrantee??


No and Zenwave has the cables you need.


----------



## Clive101

Torq said:


> The only solid-state amplifier I've been able to properly audition, that is audibly transparent* and colorless compared to the direct output from DAVE, *and* that can also drive the Abyss Phi (w/ CC pads in my case) properly, is the SPL Phonitor X.  While the "X" is above your budget, the "XE" version comes in at $1 under it.  You can use any IR remote with it for volume control (it does not include one).  Now, I've not heard the "XE" model, but as I understand it the headphone amplifier portion is the same as that in the X.
> 
> I've tried (proper, at-home, audition), owned, or still own, the Pro iCAN, GS X Mk2, Moon HA430, Ragnarok, V281, HP1 and a couple of Audio-GD models, and the Phonitor X was the only one I felt was not losing/coloring anything _audibly_ vs. DAVE-direct.
> 
> ...



Nice post, thank you.
Would you be able to post the difference between the SPL Phonitor X and the GSX Mk 2 with Dave ....?


----------



## tunes

Torq said:


> The only solid-state amplifier I've been able to properly audition, that is audibly transparent* and colorless compared to the direct output from DAVE, *and* that can also drive the Abyss Phi (w/ CC pads in my case) properly, is the SPL Phonitor X.  While the "X" is above your budget, the "XE" version comes in at $1 under it.  You can use any IR remote with it for volume control (it does not include one).  Now, I've not heard the "XE" model, but as I understand it the headphone amplifier portion is the same as that in the X.
> 
> I've tried (proper, at-home, audition), owned, or still own, the Pro iCAN, GS X Mk2, Moon HA430, Ragnarok, V281, HP1 and a couple of Audio-GD models, and the Phonitor X was the only one I felt was not losing/coloring anything _audibly_ vs. DAVE-direct.
> 
> ...


There is one other amp out there for around $2k that has high regard and wondering if anyone has heard it the Mjolnir Audio Pure BiPolar Amplifier from Iceland.  I think this is the same builder that makes great amps for the STAX headphones.


----------



## woodcans

tunes said:


> There is one other amp out there for around $2k that has high regard and wondering if anyone has heard it the Mjolnir Audio Pure BiPolar Amplifier from Iceland.  I think this is the same builder that makes great amps for the STAX headphones.



I have one. Sounds fantastic. Adds punch compared to direct Dave out. I notice no loss of detail.


----------



## tunes

woodcans said:


> I have one. Sounds fantastic. Adds punch compared to direct Dave out. I notice no loss of detail.


Did you consider the PHONITOR XE.  It also has been reviewed as a very transparent SS amp and what I like about it is it’s remote control capability.  When listening to DAVE I often need to adjust the volume remotely for different selections.


----------



## Torq

Clive101 said:


> Would you be able to post the difference between the SPL Phonitor X and the GSX Mk 2 with Dave ....?



I found the GSX Mk2 presented in a way that seemed slightly brighter than both DAVE's direct headphone output and the Phonitor X, and this was more obvious with the Abyss Phi (w/ CC pads) and the Utopia than with some other headphones.  It wasn't a big difference, by any means, but it wasn't what I was after.  Transparency was similar.  

A much bigger factor in why I don't own a GSX Mk2 is that I found the 24-step attenuator to have insufficient granularity.


----------



## Torq

tunes said:


> Did you consider the PHONITOR XE.  It also has been reviewed as a very transparent SS amp and what I like about it is it’s remote control capability.  When listening to DAVE I often need to adjust the volume remotely for different selections.



Don't forget that you can alter the volume via DAVE and it's remote as well.  In "DAC" mode it's operating at - 3dB attenuation, which is exactly the same output and processing as being in "Digital Pre" mode and choosing -3 dB - just with the volume selection disabled.  Unless you're running DAVE at 0 dB in "Digital Pre" mode, there's already digital attenuation at play, so the only thing that changes is how much attenuation is applied.


----------



## miko64

did anybody compare dave with dcs stuff such as rossini? views highly appreciated


----------



## tunes

Torq said:


> Don't forget that you can alter the volume via DAVE and it's remote as well.  In "DAC" mode it's operating at - 3dB attenuation, which is exactly the same output and processing as being in "Digital Pre" mode and choosing -3 dB - just with the volume selection disabled.  Unless you're running DAVE at 0 dB in "Digital Pre" mode, there's already digital attenuation at play, so the only thing that changes is how much attenuation is applied.


So does this infer that with any headphone amp that does not have a remote volume control I can use the DAVE
remote to adjust the volume?


----------



## Torq

tunes said:


> So does this infer that with any headphone amp that does not have a remote volume control I can use the DAVE
> remote to adjust the volume?



Yes.

As long as it's in "Digital Pre" mode - which is the default when no headphones are connected, unless you manually switch it to "DAC" mode.


----------



## tunes (Feb 3, 2019)

Torq said:


> Yes.
> 
> As long as it's in "Digital Pre" mode - which is the default when no headphones are connected, unless you manually switch it to "DAC" mode.


Thanks for the clarification.  So now I don’t need to focus on an amp with a remote control volume feature when using it with DAVE.  That’s great!   Now I just have to decide between the PHONITOR Xe and Mjölnir Pure Bipolar Balanced Dynamic Headphone Amplifier
Read more at https://www.innerfidelity.com/conte...8-icelandic-wonder-page-2#wCxzXlsRDTEE7rMA.99


----------



## Torq

tunes said:


> Thanks for the clarification.  So now I don’t need to focus on an amp with a remote control volume feature when using it with DAVE.  That’s great!   Now I just have to decide between the PHONITOR Xe and Mjölnir Pure Bipolar Balanced Dynamic Headphone Amplifier
> Read more at https://www.innerfidelity.com/conte...8-icelandic-wonder-page-2#wCxzXlsRDTEE7rMA.99



Can't help you on that one.

I've never read anything but positive feedback on Mjölnir's builds or the fundamental designs.  But I'd still have to audition it side-by-side with a familiar reference to consider it even from a pure SQ perspective.  And for various, non-SQ-related reasons, they're not on my radar outside electrostatic amps (which will probably be something I add to my setup in the near future).


----------



## Clive101

Torq said:


> I found the GSX Mk2 presented in a way that seemed slightly brighter than both DAVE's direct headphone output and the Phonitor X, and this was more obvious with the Abyss Phi (w/ CC pads) and the Utopia than with some other headphones.  It wasn't a big difference, by any means, but it wasn't what I was after.  Transparency was similar.
> 
> A much bigger factor in why I don't own a GSX Mk2 is that I found the 24-step attenuator to have insufficient granularity.



Thank you for your reply. Currently ( not wishing to cause conflict as your experience and your system YMMV ) I have a GSX mk2 but oddly I found the GSX slightly less transparent ( small margin ) no extra brightness but more musical than stand alone Dave.... I guess the extra power and headroom helped with the LCD4 I currently have. So I will give the Dave - GSX Mk2  another listen in the next few weeks. 

So I guess with the Phonitor X ( or XE my preferred  ) will be warmer than my current set up which answers my question, Thank you.


----------



## audio_1

miko64 said:


> did anybody compare dave with dcs stuff such as rossini? views highly appreciated



I compared the DCS Vivaldi to the Dave. The Dave sounded much better imho. The Vivaldi is an outdated DAC with incorrect topology and short tap length filters. It is impossible for it to sound good. I purchased the Dave and Blu II. The Blu II or Hugo Mscaler improve the Dave further still.


----------



## Torq

Clive101 said:


> Thank you for your reply. Currently ( not wishing to cause conflict as your experience and your system YMMV ) I have a GSX mk2 but oddly I found the GSX slightly less transparent ( small margin ) no extra brightness but more musical than stand alone Dave.... I guess the extra power and headroom helped with the LCD4 I currently have. So I will give the Dave - GSX Mk2  another listen in the next few weeks.
> 
> So I guess with the Phonitor X ( or XE my preferred  ) will be warmer than my current set up which answers my question, Thank you.



Sorry, it looks like I cut-off the end of my 2nd sentence, which should have read: "Transparency was similar to, if not a perfect match for, the Phonitor X".

The Phonitor X is still the only solid-state amp where I can't tell a difference in transparency vs. DAVE's direct output.

I don't think I tried my LCD-4 in a GSX Mk2 vs. DAVE-direct comparison (don't have any notes on that combination).  Before I got to doing so I'd already decided I wasn't going to go with that amp due to not liking the 24-step volume control so further testing wasn't useful. I don't care for my LCD-4 straight out of DAVE, though, and via my Phonitor X they definitely exhibit a more impactful and controlled bottom-end than vs. DAVE on it's own.

I don't know if the Phonitor X will actually sound any warmer than the GSX Mk2 with the LCD-4.  That the HeadAmp was a _little_ brighter with the Abyss and Utopia may not translate the same way to higher-impedance (or even just "other") cans.  But, again, once I was off the idea of having one I didn't listen further.

It's worth noting that, with DAVE specifically, the 24-step attenuator is not an issue, since you have much more granular control on DAVE itself.  But for my purposes, the amp wasn't just going to be used with DAVE, so the limited granularity of the stepped attenuator didn't work for me.


----------



## Whazzzup

I went alpha on gsx mk2, splendid.


----------



## Torq

Whazzzup said:


> I went alpha on gsx mk2, splendid.



No doubt.

That didn't seem to be an option at the time, nor is it now (at least according to the options available on the website).  I don't know if Justin can/do/does that as some kind of special/custom order, just that the DACT stepped attenuator is now standard.  That might be moot for other people anyway.  And is water under the bridge for me at this point.


----------



## iDesign (Feb 4, 2019)

miko64 said:


> did anybody compare dave with dcs stuff such as rossini? views highly appreciated


I'm not aware of any members of Head-Fi that purchased the dCS Bartók thus far. I assumed that we would have seen some comparisons to the DAVE since it includes a headphone amplifier and a similar price of admission. I do find its network connectivity options are somewhat compelling if they work well and provide a good isolated path. However, I would still pick the DAVE for a number of reasons including its smaller footprint.


----------



## musicday

Dave and Blu MK2 are on eBay both on black if anyone interested  not mine trough.


----------



## Foxman50

miko64 said:


> did anybody compare dave with dcs stuff such as rossini? views highly appreciated



I have compared Rossini DAC/world clock against HMS/DAVE. I found the dCs to be fatiguing and overly bright. 

These were fed directly into a set of ATC active 50’s via balanced o/p’s. 

Only difference was the Chord set was fed from an Aurender N10, whereas the dCs pulled straight from NAS.

I was disappointed by the dCs but maybe this was more down to system synergy.


----------



## audio_1

Foxman50 said:


> I have compared Rossini DAC/world clock against HMS/DAVE. I found the dCs to be fatiguing and overly bright.
> 
> These were fed directly into a set of ATC active 50’s via balanced o/p’s.
> 
> ...



The dCS philosophy is to sell multiple boxes. A low accuracy clock is fitted to the DAC so that you will have to purchase a higher accuracy master clock. The single ended outputs use op-amps. High inductance ribbon cables connect the analogue outputs and digital inputs to the circuit boards. Dual AES cables connect the multiple boxes. A fully configured Vivaldi system could have 5 AES digital cables and 5 master clock cables. Imagine the number of ferrites required to prevent RF noise. The digital volume control kills dynamics if more than 20 dB of attenuation is applied. Need I go on, the Dave, Blu 2 or Hugo M-Scaler are in a totally different class.


----------



## naynay

Class it is, just listening to my newly owned Dave


----------



## naynay (Feb 6, 2019)

Hi
Other than using power off on the remote is there a button on the unit that will do the same?
Thank you


----------



## ecwl

audio_1 said:


> The dCS philosophy is to sell multiple boxes. A low accuracy clock is fitted to the DAC so that you will have to purchase a higher accuracy master clock. The single ended outputs use op-amps. High inductance ribbon cables connect the analogue outputs and digital inputs to the circuit boards. Dual AES cables connect the multiple boxes. A fully configured Vivaldi system could have 5 AES digital cables and 5 master clock cables. Imagine the number of ferrites required to prevent RF noise. The digital volume control kills dynamics if more than 20 dB of attenuation is applied. Need I go on, the Dave, Blu 2 or Hugo M-Scaler are in a totally different class.



While I agree with most of the gist of what you're saying, I have to admit I really don't think dCS is intentionally including a low accuracy clock into their DACs and then upselling their products with a higher accuracy master clock. My understanding, based on Rob Watt's explanation, is that all DAC designs (except for Chord's Pulse Array DACs) are very jitter sensitive which means that they would always perform better if paired with a higher accuracy master clock. By comparison, with the Chord's Pulse Array DACs, because the DAC design is not jitter sensitive (or significantly dramatically less so than other DAC designs), an excellent master clock is sufficient to eliminate jitter-related effects, obviating the need for thousands of dollars of external clocking.


----------



## Sunya

If a DAC sounds better slaved to an external clock than on its internal one (even if the external clock has better specs) something is wrong with it. dCS (and Esoteric) DACs have Word Clock outputs which allows them to be the Master Clock for the source sending the digital signal (like in Asynchronous USB mode); but why lose the chance of selling another useless box to ignorant audiophiles?

https://repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,16164.0.html


----------



## GryphonGuy

ecwl said:


> While I agree with most of the gist of what you're saying, I have to admit I really don't think dCS is intentionally including a low accuracy clock into their DACs and then upselling their products with a higher accuracy master clock. My understanding, based on Rob Watt's explanation, is that all DAC designs (except for Chord's Pulse Array DACs) are very jitter sensitive which means that they would always perform better if paired with a higher accuracy master clock. By comparison, with the Chord's Pulse Array DACs, because the DAC design is not jitter sensitive (or significantly dramatically less so than other DAC designs), an excellent master clock is sufficient to eliminate jitter-related effects, obviating the need for thousands of dollars of external clocking.



In the old days, say the early "naughties" of the 21st century, digital signals were sent realtime (remember the Slim Devices Transporter and similar devices?) and an external clock sending timing signals to both the Slim Devices Transporter and my Metronome Signature DAC ENORMOUSLY changed the signal to be time-aligned etc. Jump forward to when the Metronome died and could not be repaired by even the Factory in France, the Chord DAVE does not need an external clock because it time-aligns the digital signal within itself. With DAVE and Sonore UltraRendu powered by Uptone LPS-1.2, the current sound of my system has never been better and I don't feel the need (yet!!) to improve the music produced by this current system.

If a top-of-line multi-box DAC system sounds bright even when synchronised by an external clock, it points to electrical noise and probably the old real-time transmission technology that industry leaders have abandoned long ago or indeed never implemented in the first place.

Just my opinions.
Cheers
GG


----------



## Foxman50

The dCs world clock made very little difference and was debatable if it actually made an improvement or just altered the sound.


----------



## musickid

It alters the sound _and_ the time zone you listen in by transporting you back....back to a time when Brachiosaurus chewed leaves. (expensive audio components that make zero difference to the sound quality one hears.... oh my.)


----------



## naynay

Currently using SSD drive attached to Aries Femto USB for my music storage for dave what are others using for there music as i feel this setup could be improved?


----------



## Triode User

naynay said:


> Currently using SSD drive attached to Aries Femto USB for my music storage for dave what are others using for there music as i feel this setup could be improved?



I use the Innuos Zenith SE running Roon and set up to to play from RAM under the new release of the Innuos firmware. It is excellent. I also have Roon set up to stream from the Zenith to various other Roon endpoints around the house such as a Chromecast outputting optical in the kitchen system.


----------



## Whazzzup

Antipodes audio DX running roon is excellent.


----------



## naynay (Feb 8, 2019)

Thank you for those two previous recommendations either one looks suitable for what i'm needing so will look into further.
Looking at John Darko's latest video on Dave when unboxing it, inside he shows a Chord Dave Manual should there be one included as there was not one with mine?


----------



## musickid

Good to hear whazzzup. i never would have guessed.


----------



## Mikey99

naynay said:


> Thank you for those two previous recommendations either one looks suitable for what i'm needing so will look into further.
> Looking at John Darko's latest video on Dave when unboxing it, inside he shows a Chord Dave Manual should there be one included as there was not one with mine?


I got a manual with mine. Nothing to write home about, it is simply the on-line manual printed out and inserted into a binder.


----------



## maxh22

Triode User said:


> I use the Innuos Zenith SE running Roon and set up to to play from RAM under the new release of the Innuos firmware. It is excellent. I also have Roon set up to stream from the Zenith to various other Roon endpoints around the house such as a Chromecast outputting optical in the kitchen system.



What setup are you using for your kitchen? My Chromecast is outputting optical to some nice Samsung speakers but the amp that's built into the sub has some weird volume fluctuations from time to time so I may end up replacing them soon.


----------



## Triode User

maxh22 said:


> What setup are you using for your kitchen? My Chromecast is outputting optical to some nice Samsung speakers but the amp that's built into the sub has some weird volume fluctuations from time to time so I may end up replacing them soon.



Well, until today, the chromecast was outputting optical to an RME dac and then into an oldish Musical Fidelity X-A2 amp and then into some Dali 104 speakers that I rebuilt with new drivers and crossovers of my design. 

As of today however the  chromecast is going via optical into a TT2 which is driving the same speakers direct (ie no amp).


----------



## draytonklammer (Feb 9, 2019)

Anyone know how a Chord Dave would compare to a McIntosh C47?

Considering selling my Dave to pickup a McIntosh MC302 and C47 for my Focal Aria 936's.
Might sell my Abyss, too.


----------



## musickid

Wasn't it quite recently you picked up a used dave and had nothing but praise for it?


----------



## draytonklammer (Feb 9, 2019)

musickid said:


> Wasn't it quite recently you picked up a used dave and had nothing but praise for it?



It depends how you define recently. It has been about a year.
It's a great DAC, but I feel as though it would be a lot more relevant to a headphone than a pair of speakers in terms of that last percentage of details.
Not to mention, this would allow me to balance out my speaker setup more.
I could see more value out of driving them properly with a lesser DAC, as compared to running them with the Dave and an Emotiva amp.


----------



## musickid

Best of luck. Each of us is somehow following some kind of personal quest otherwise i don't even think we'd be here.


----------



## miketlse

draytonklammer said:


> It depends how you define recently. It has been about a year.
> It's a great DAC, but I feel as though it would be a lot more relevant to a headphone than a pair of speakers in terms of that last percentage of details.
> Not to mention, this would allow me to balance out my speaker setup more.
> I could see more value out of driving them properly with a lesser DAC, as compared to running them with the Dave and an Emotiva amp.


I can direct drive my 936 with a Hugo 2.
Have you tried direct driving with the DAVE?


----------



## jlbrach

draytonklammer said:


> Anyone know how a Chord Dave would compare to a McIntosh C47?
> 
> Considering selling my Dave to pickup an McIntosh MC302 and C47 for my Focal Aria 936's.
> Might sell my Abyss, too.



nobody here is as fickle as you lol....


----------



## draytonklammer (Feb 9, 2019)

miketlse said:


> I can direct drive my 936 with a Hugo 2.
> Have you tried direct driving with the DAVE?



I haven't tried that, but it's very tempting to give it a go this afternoon.

I was under the impression that this was not a particularly good idea, or not enough power, albeit Focal speakers are decently efficient.



jlbrach said:


> nobody here is as fickle as you lol....



Yeah, god forbid I want to try anything, right?
Super audio seems to think the same. Nothing like defamation of character over trying to experience more than one item in a hobby. At least I am Google famous now!

The same could be said as to how I settled on my current setup. Buying/selling and eventually settling on the Abyss and Dave for awhile.

At the end of the day, I would also like to state that this change also affects others in my family positively. We really enjoy listening to music together and this is much more simple than doing so with multiple pairs of high end headphones and separate amplifiers for each pair of headphones to ensure multiple optimal levels of volume.

I would disagree in terms of generalizing me as unstable for a number of other reasons, but this seems like plenty of response time to your statement.


----------



## jarnopp

draytonklammer said:


> It depends how you define recently. It has been about a year.
> It's a great DAC, but I feel as though it would be a lot more relevant to a headphone than a pair of speakers in terms of that last percentage of details.
> Not to mention, this would allow me to balance out my speaker setup more.
> I could see more value out of driving them properly with a lesser DAC, as compared to running them with the Dave and an Emotiva amp.



Maybe consider the Chord TT2 and have the best (or very close) of both - it will drive headphones and speakers, and is about in line with the C47, and you could sell Dave and Emotive (which is likely limiting you with speakers anyway).


----------



## draytonklammer

jarnopp said:


> Maybe consider the Chord TT2 and have the best (or very close) of both - it will drive headphones and speakers, and is about in line with the C47, and you could sell Dave and Emotive (which is likely limiting you with speakers anyway).




I've been looking at bit into the Chord TT2, but at that point I might as well either commit to the full McIntosh setup, or keep the Dave and find a good power amplifier or mono power amplifiers for these. Just trying to think of ways not to cost myself much more financially, which is why selling the Dave came up to fund a more balanced speaker system.

Maybe I'll put the money I get from selling the Abyss eventually into a nice amplifier instead.

This is all around a year off still anyways, but I like to make sure I have a plan.


----------



## koven

Why McIntosh? They look great and sound fine but certainly not in the bang for buck camp if value is a priority for you..


----------



## draytonklammer

koven said:


> Why McIntosh? They look great and sound fine but certainly not in the bang for buck camp if value is a priority for you..



I'm very much open to suggestions. I know some people have said I should look into tubes as well.

I believe part of it is the McIntosh Autoformer design.
I was looking at the McIntosh MC302 (which can be had for about $3800) and being able to support over 300W per channel at any major impedance (I know these Focals can often hit 2 ohms, or jump much higher) seems rather important.

I also figured the extra headroom the MC302 would give me, along with the name (and subsequent resale value if it ever came down to it) could be worthwhile.

Part of the reason I came here, was just in case I could find some extra suggestions.


----------



## koven (Feb 9, 2019)

draytonklammer said:


> I'm very much open to suggestions. I know some people have said I should look into tubes as well.
> 
> I believe part of it is the McIntosh Autoformer design.
> I was looking at the McIntosh MC302 (which can be had for about $3800) and being able to support over 300W per channel at any major impedance (I know these Focals can often hit 2 ohms, or jump much higher) seems rather important.
> ...



Looks aside and in same tier, I like Classe sound over McIntosh. But of course it comes down to the speaker pairing. Have not heard Focal Aria but with B&W I prefer Classe, despite B&W being popularly paired w/ McIntosh. A bit cheaper power options include Bryston, Krell, Parasound, etc. For tubes you cannot go wrong w/ Luxman, Audio Research, BAT, etc. I suggest some research or posts on speaker forums like Audiocircle or Audiogon, since this is predominately a headphone community.


----------



## GryphonGuy

koven said:


> Looks aside and in same tier, I like Classe sound over McIntosh. But of course it comes down to the speaker pairing. Have not heard Focal Aria but with B&W I prefer Classe, despite B&W being popularly paired w/ McIntosh. A bit cheaper power options include Bryston, Krell, Parasound, etc. For tubes you cannot go wrong w/ Luxman, Audio Research, BAT, etc. I suggest some research or posts on speaker forums like Audiocircle or Audiogon, since this is predominately a headphone community.



When fed lots of current, my B&W 802 diamond speakers sing with verve, strength, solidity and delicacy. Hence Gryphon class A amps and Krell class A amps are my favourites with B&W juice-hungry speakers.

GG


----------



## pjk1

I own a ton of McIntosh gear including the headphone amp. Let me just say there is no comparison the Dave blows it away. I have not heard the TT2 yet but already a fan of Chord!


----------



## pjk1

koven said:


> Looks aside and in same tier, I like Classe sound over McIntosh. But of course it comes down to the speaker pairing. Have not heard Focal Aria but with B&W I prefer Classe, despite B&W being popularly paired w/ McIntosh. A bit cheaper power options include Bryston, Krell, Parasound, etc. For tubes you cannot go wrong w/ Luxman, Audio Research, BAT, etc. I suggest some research or posts on speaker forums like Audiocircle or Audiogon, since this is predominately a headphone community.


Using Classe CA-5300 to power my B&W 802 D2 the sound is breath taking. I use it in a theater setup as well as listening room. It's definitely not the best looking amp but when I auditioned other comparable amps the pairing seemed like a match made in heaven. I have it hidden away in a cabinet so just the speakers are showing which are a piece of art themselves.  

I have a McIntosh setup for "looks" in my library which is just a dedicated listening room. More for show but I prefer Classe sound.


----------



## x RELIC x

draytonklammer said:


> I'm very much open to suggestions.



Maybe the DX amp from Rob will show up this year....


----------



## Deftone

Whazzzup said:


> Antipodes audio DX running roon is excellent.



#Antipodesquad


----------



## jlbrach

GryphonGuy said:


> When fed lots of current, my B&W 802 diamond speakers sing with verve, strength, solidity and delicacy. Hence Gryphon class A amps and Krell class A amps are my favourites with B&W juice-hungry speakers.
> 
> GG



the mcintosh 452 is great with the 802sd's


----------



## Hoegaardener70

JM1979 said:


> Not yet. I need to spend the night listening to my Hugo 2 and convincing myself not to spend the money
> 
> I do think I’ll consider getting one in the next 6 months. It also gave me the urge to really give the Hugo TT2 a solid look. I’ll also have to read up on MScaler + HugoTT2 combo too.



I have the Hugo2, and together with a great amp (I use the ifi Pro iCan) you can beat most systems. Feel the chord amp section (even on the Dave) is not on par with their DACs, and that way you get the best of both worlds for a reasonable price


----------



## miketlse

x RELIC x said:


> Maybe the DX amp from Rob will show up this year....


I thought that JF posted that they are still years away.


----------



## x RELIC x

miketlse said:


> I thought that JF posted that they are still years away.





Mojo ideas said:


> I’m quite aware of these digital Amps that Rob has been working on for many years.  I can confirm that we are at least several years away, in producing any Amplifier comparable to the power performance of our new Etude Amplifier. These are just hitting the dealers in the coming weeks if your looking for a truly amazing amp I’d get a demo lined if you can.



Sure, and I forgot about the Etude! Then again I did say _maybe _(one can hope).

So, add the Etude to the list of potential amps if one is looking for an external 150W power amp solution for speakers.


----------



## ecwl

miketlse said:


> I thought that JF posted that they are still years away.


I suspect both statements are true. If you parse John Franks words, he said no power pulse array amp comparable to the power performance of Etude. Hugo TT2 is 8-18W per channel into 8 ohms and there’s no stats available for 4 ohms or 2 ohms. Etude is 75W into 8 ohms and 150W into 4 ohms. 
But Rob Watts recently said he is busy working on other projects instead of his ADC Davina. The only readily available project would be his power pulse array amplifier since it’s already starting to be used in TT2. So my guess is that maybe Rob Watts is working on an amplifier that can do 30W into 8 ohms? That said, I recall in the past Rob Watts is convinced that he can get the technology working up to 1000W or something like that. But as always, I’m sure there’s theory and then there’s the end product.
I think looking back at the Head-Fi Forums, Chord DAVE (and now DAVINA) took longer than expected to be developed while Blu2/M-Scaler took less time than expected. But even if the new power pulse array amplifier is announced in May, Chord history suggests they won’t ship until November and most customers won’t get theirs until February 2020. 
So I’m enjoying my Etude amplifier with speakers tremendously. The new Hi-Fi+ February 2019 is coming out and downloadable on the Chord website. And I’ve been watching my volume setting to see how much wattage I really need. If and when Rob Watts’ power pulse array amplifiers come out, I’ll evaluate at that time whether it’s a product I’m interested in.


----------



## Triode User

ecwl said:


> I suspect both statements are true. If you parse John Franks words, he said no power pulse array amp comparable to the power performance of Etude. Hugo TT2 is 8-18W per channel into 8 ohms and there’s no stats available for 4 ohms or 2 ohms. Etude is 75W into 8 ohms and 150W into 4 ohms.
> But Rob Watts recently said he is busy working on other projects instead of his ADC Davina. The only readily available project would be his power pulse array amplifier since it’s already starting to be used in TT2. So my guess is that maybe Rob Watts is working on an amplifier that can do 30W into 8 ohms? That said, I recall in the past Rob Watts is convinced that he can get the technology working up to 1000W or something like that. But as always, I’m sure there’s theory and then there’s the end product.
> I think looking back at the Head-Fi Forums, Chord DAVE (and now DAVINA) took longer than expected to be developed while Blu2/M-Scaler took less time than expected. But even if the new power pulse array amplifier is announced in May, Chord history suggests they won’t ship until November and most customers won’t get theirs until February 2020.
> So I’m enjoying my Etude amplifier with speakers tremendously. The new Hi-Fi+ February 2019 is coming out and downloadable on the Chord website. And I’ve been watching my volume setting to see how much wattage I really need. If and when Rob Watts’ power pulse array amplifiers come out, I’ll evaluate at that time whether it’s a product I’m interested in.



It is good to hear from an enthusiastic etude owner. I look forward to reading the review you mention. 

As to what Rob is working on, who knows apart from him. Personally I suspect that the stand alone digital amp is a big project to try and get done even within the timescale you mention. 

Having recently heard a TT2 driving my spendor speakers however I would be very happy to have a Dave version of TT2 with just a bit more power. Whether it is worth doing that as a project until there are other reasons to update Dave is another matter. 

The thing about Rob is that he does stuff none of the rest of us can dream up or have the nouse to do it. Having tried to second guess him before I’m now inclined just to wait and see.


----------



## naynay (Feb 12, 2019)

.


----------



## naynay (Feb 12, 2019)

.


----------



## rgs9200m (Feb 11, 2019)

There are a bunch of McIntosh C47s offered on ebay for around $3200. There are no Chord DAVEs offered there. Most used DAVEs are over $7,000 when they show up.
I never heard a C47, but that's the marketplace opinion.
The McIntosh MC302 is a power amp, so it's not really comparable to a DAVE.
(There is a nice looking MC402 amp on Audiogon though...)
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9b069-mcintosh-mc402-stereo-amplifier-solid-state
And there are more 402s on amazon and ebay...


----------



## iDesign (Feb 17, 2019)

Over the past few days I have been doing A/B tests with my Balanced Power Technologies 3.5 Signature PLUS power conditioner and my new High Fidelity Cables MC-6 Hemisphere and Reveal power cable. @romaz first introduced me to the High Fidelity Cables MC-6 Hemisphere and the difference in sound quality is apparent. Before setting up the MC-6 Hemisphere, I made extensive changes to my home electrical wiring and the main electrical panel by adding whole-home surge protection+conditioning devices from Schneider Electric at the panel, double grounded the home's wiring to effectively lower the noise floor, and installed a Furutech GTX-D NCF(R) receptacle. I noticed a lot of the reviews of High Fidelity Cables products were done in homes with ancient outlets and wiring (e.g. this ancient wall outlet in AudioBacon's review!) and the differences of improving the wiring, grounding, and outlets are far more important than the MC-6 Hemisphere itself.

The DAVE is so incredibly transparent and revealing that small a change such as the BPT 3.5 Signature PLUS to the High Fidelity Cables MC-6 Hemisphere is obvious. The benefits of using a power conditioner versus plugging the DAVE and Blu Mk II directly into the wall outlet are very noticeable. As for how the two power conditioners differ, I believe the BPT unit yielded a darker and more full-bodied sound while the High Fidelity Cables unit seems to be slightly brighter. Unfortunately, BPT ceased operations several years ago and they produced what I believe were the best power conditioners available anywhere and I can't recommend them enough. For owners of the DAVE in the USA that are using a standard 110V outlet, I feel investments into your home wiring, power cables, and conditioners, are some of the biggest improvements you can make.

And for what its worth, the MC-6 Hemisphere I received is in their all new chassis (different from the one on their website). It was also built with three Furutech GTX-D NCF(R) receptacles instead of the standard GTX-D(R) which I am quite pleased about.


----------



## dac64 (Feb 23, 2019)

iDesign said:


> You are new to Head-Fi and don’t own a DAVE. You don’t have a horse in this race. I described you accurately.



Well, I didn't owned a Dave, and I have optimised the Qutest, the first picture.

And, now I looking into the pre.

I used stock supplied cables only, and reluctant to buy expensive conditioner or balanced etc...

However , my approach is universal, i.e. finding the sweet spot to place the footers

From the second given picture, a change of mm will make a huge differences.


----------



## ZappaMan (Feb 15, 2019)

Ladies please.  Enough fighting, let’s get back to discussing spending ever more money on anything possibly related to audio.

I know one thing for sure tho, whazzup has his server and he’s happy enough. So that’s 1 that I’ve counted so far.

Tho I do suspect, whazzup got his server cheap on the condition that he posts at least 3 times a day, reminding people that he has his server and he’s happy.

Suppose he’s neither the first or the last.

Now where were we again.

Jk wazzer


----------



## Deftone

What server was it again?


----------



## ZappaMan

Deftone said:


> What server was it again?


Think it was ANTIPODES or something ... not sure...


----------



## musickid (Feb 16, 2019)

It's the one connected to the hugoTT for which there seems no possible reason under the sun to upgrade to a TT2 because the TT in conjunction with the antipodes really hits the spot i think?


----------



## Deftone

musickid said:


> It's the one connected to the hugoTT for which there seems no possible reason under the sun to upgrade to a TT2 because the TT in conjunction with the antipodes really hits the spot i think?



Why feel forced to upgrade if he’s very happy with antipodes and TT. Imo this hobby is not always about getting the best you can afford, sometimes it’s about your preference and/or being content.


----------



## musickid (Feb 16, 2019)

Then the hobby is over...


----------



## AxelCloris

Let’s please keep the discussion civil and on-topic. Thanks everyone.


----------



## tunes

Torq said:


> I found the GSX Mk2 presented in a way that seemed slightly brighter than both DAVE's direct headphone output and the Phonitor X, and this was more obvious with the Abyss Phi (w/ CC pads) and the Utopia than with some other headphones.  It wasn't a big difference, by any means, but it wasn't what I was after.  Transparency was similar.
> 
> A much bigger factor in why I don't own a GSX Mk2 is that I found the 24-step attenuator to have insufficient granularity.


Can you explain what it is that you don’t like “A much bigger factor in why I don't own a GSX Mk2 is that I found the 24-step attenuator to have insufficient granularity.”

I think the new GSX-mini has a choice of potentiometers. Not sure I know the difference and if this amp is used with DAVE, the DAVE remote can control volume as in other posts.


----------



## tunes

iDesign said:


> Over the past few days I have been doing A/B tests with my Balanced Power Technologies 3.5 Signature PLUS power conditioner and my new High Fidelity Cables MC-6 Hemisphere and Reveal power cable. @romaz first introduced me to the High Fidelity Cables MC-6 Hemisphere and the difference in sound quality is apparent. Before setting up the MC-6 Hemisphere, I made extensive changes to my home electrical wiring and panel by adding whole-home surge protection+conditioning devices from Schneider Electric at the panel, double grounded the home's wiring to effectively lower the noise floor, and installed a Furutech GTX-D NCF(R) receptacle. I noticed a lot of the reviews of High Fidelity Cables products were done in homes with ancient outlets and wiring (e.g. this ancient wall outlet in AudioBacon's review!) and the differences of improving the wiring, grounding, and outlets are far more important than the MC-6 Hemisphere itself.
> 
> The DAVE is so incredibly transparent and revealing that small a change such as the BPT 3.5 Signature PLUS to the High Fidelity Cables MC-6 Hemisphere is obvious. Although both power conditioners are fine products, I believe the BPT unit yeilded a darker and more full-bodied sound while the High Fidelity Cables unit seems to be brighter and the image is blurred. Unfortunately, BPT ceased operations several years ago and they produced what I believe were the best power conditioners available anywhere and I can't recommend them enough. For owners of the DAVE that haven't invested into their home wiring, power cables, and conditioners, it is one of the biggest improvements you can make.
> 
> And for what its worth, the MC-6 Hemisphere I received is in their all new chassis (different from the one on their website). It was also built with three Furutech GTX-D NCF(R) receptacles instead of the standard GTX-D(R) which I am quite pleased about.


Will there be any improvement on Sonics with the less expensive offerings like the MC-1 or MC-6 nonhisphere if all you need are a few outlets just for the DAVE AND HMS?


----------



## Torq

tunes said:


> Can you explain what it is that you don’t like “A much bigger factor in why I don't own a GSX Mk2 is that I found the 24-step attenuator to have insufficient granularity.”



It only gives you 24, discrete, steps total from its minimum volume setting to its maximum. Which meant I couldn't always get the volume where I wanted it.  Not an issue if your source has variable output levels (volume) like DAVE does - as long as you're willing to change the volume on the source - but in my case I was looking for an amp that was also going to have to work with fixed-level outputs.



tunes said:


> I think the new GSX-mini has a choice of potentiometers. Not sure I know the difference and if this amp is used with DAVE, the DAVE remote can control volume as in other posts.



Looks like you can choose between the ALPS RK27, which is a conventional infinitely-variable/continuous analog potentiometer or the DACT 24-step attenuator.  The DACT option ensures you'll have proper channel balance even at low volumes, the ALPS RK27 may exhibit some low-level channel imbalance (not uncommon for pots) but doesn't limit you to 24 discrete volume levels.

Both will be fine from DAVE - especially since you're planning on using the variable output and remote on DAVE for volume control anyway.


----------



## tunes (Feb 17, 2019)

Torq said:


> It only gives you 24, discrete, steps total from its minimum volume setting to its maximum. Which meant I couldn't always get the volume where I wanted it.  Not an issue if your source has variable output levels (volume) like DAVE does - as long as you're willing to change the volume on the source - but in my case I was looking for an amp that was also going to have to work with fixed-level outputs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perfect—

So do you think the GX-mini will be an adequate amp for the Susvara combined with the DAVE HMS combo?  I am uncertain how this amp will take the single ended DAVE output and make it balanced to the headphone.   The preorder add suggests that is is a good amp for non-power hungry headphones but not sure if it will be a good pairing with the SUSVARA.   I can get a good price on the Susvara GX-mini package from HeadAmp.


----------



## Torq

tunes said:


> Perfect—
> 
> So do you think the GX-mini will be an adequate amp for the Susvara combined with the DAVE HMS combo?



No idea, I'm afraid.

I haven't seen specs for the GSX-Mini so don't know what sort of power it can push to give you a theoretical answer, nor have I heard one (obviously) driving the Susvara to give you a subjective opinion.


----------



## tunes

Torq said:


> No idea, I'm afraid.
> 
> I haven't seen specs for the GSX-Mini so don't know what sort of power it can push to give you a theoretical answer, nor have I heard one (obviously) driving the Susvara to give you a subjective opinion.



What are currently considered the most “transparent “ amps for the DAVE in any price range?


----------



## dac64

tunes said:


> What are currently considered the most “transparent “ amps for the DAVE in any price range?



Krell 450Mcx. I got a pair, it's pair of wonderful amps, and you can get it from US easily. 750Mcx is good too!


----------



## tunes

dac64 said:


> Krell 450Mcx. I got a pair, it's pair of wonderful amps, and you can get it from US easily. 750Mcx is good too!


For headphones?


----------



## dac64

tunes said:


> For headphones?



I have misread your post!


----------



## Galm

Does anyone know where a good place to pick up the ensemble stand is in the U.S.?  Or even just the nickel legs (if that can be done...?)

Got my hopes up on a stand before realizing the color was wrong now I want to hunt a little at least...  It was like 1/3 the price too...


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> What are currently considered the most “transparent “ amps for the DAVE in any price range?



Is this for speakers? I have settled on Pass Labs XA60.8 after trying many including the Chord SCM 1200 Mk2 power amp.


----------



## jarnopp

Triode User said:


> Is this for speakers? I have settled on Pass Labs XA60.8 after trying many including the Chord SCM 1200 Mk2 power amp.



Has anyone tried the Etude?


----------



## jonstatt

Galm said:


> Does anyone know where a good place to pick up the ensemble stand is in the U.S.?  Or even just the nickel legs (if that can be done...?)
> 
> Got my hopes up on a stand before realizing the color was wrong now I want to hunt a little at least...  It was like 1/3 the price too...



I wanted the stand for my DAVE and Blu2 in black with nickel legs before I was quoted a price in the UK that was half the price of a new DAVE. Quickly gave up on that idea! The cost is ludicrous.


----------



## Triode User

jonstatt said:


> I wanted the stand for my DAVE and Blu2 in black with nickel legs before I was quoted a price in the UK that was half the price of a new DAVE. Quickly gave up on that idea! The cost is ludicrous.



I just put them on a nice table and they look great. (in fact better than the stands IMHO)


----------



## ecwl

jarnopp said:


> Has anyone tried the Etude?


I have been using Etude for a few months now. I use speakers. I really enjoy Etude. It is way more transparent than my old Sanders Magtech. It is also very musical (unlike some neutral and ultra transparent amps that can sound harsh).
I know @tunes wanted a headphone amp. For me, most of the high-end (well-reviewed) headphone amps I've heard at my local head-fi meet tend to add extra warmth to the sound (probably with 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortions) and it's not really my thing as I hear lots of speaker amps do the same thing which I also don't like. For me, for speaker amps, I gravitated towards more neutral (some might call drier) and transparent sound. Of those amps, I found Bryston 4B3, Benchmark AHB2 and Chord Etude to be very neutral and transparent yet musical (most importantly without sounding harsh). Funnily enough, I have seen people at my local head-fi meet drive their headphones with Benchmark AHB2 and Bryston amps. Hence, I suspect one can also drive headphones with Chord Etude.
I think there are many great amplifiers out there. They are all different in their own way. Ultimately, I think people should try different amps out with DAVE and see what they like (if they need amplifiers). For me, for headphones, I just use DAVE because it is still to me the most transparent and musical.


----------



## MaggotBrain

Triode User said:


> Is this for speakers? I have settled on Pass Labs XA60.8 after trying many including the Chord SCM 1200 Mk2 power amp.



  I recognize that this is a headphone  forum, but I respect and value the opinions of those who have the Chord Dave amplifier and seek to have input on a potential speaker amp pairing with the Chord Dave. I should stay in advance that my ““ listening room is a, ahem, unique one. As pictures speak louder than words,  Above is the picture of my rig.  You will notice that it is adjacent to, thing of all things, exercise equipment!  Specifically it is a Precor AMT, an adaptive motion trainer - which is an elliptical which is easier on the knees, but for the purposes of this forum, puts myself in a listening position between seven and 8 feet in height.  You may notice the Abyss 1266 headphones, which is excellent in its own right,  
 Recently, I have made some modifications to my rig which facilitate some listening to speakers as well, which is useful when I’m using my exercise equipment to read a book or surf the Internet. The monitor you see there is not a TV but actually a touchscreen computer  -  A Microsoft surface studio two, which is kind of like a giant iPad and it is glorious. (Sidebar -  you know what I missed about the newspaper -  it’s the actual size of the newspaper which makes it so easy to read. Using a tablet or, heaven forbid, An iphone gets weary on these aging eyes and reading on the surface studio is truly a delight. Plus you can stream xbox, play computer games, or, if you fancy, actually get some work done!)  And don’t worry, the computer is tucked into a security case into custom made wood stand so it won’t move unless you strike it with a baseball bat. The  reason for this kooky set up is, to be totally honest, in the name of fun but also in the name of health. My doctor told me last year that my cholesterol was borderline high so I made some changes to my lifestyle.  Once I got the M scaler, I decided to dust off an old home theater, a Geneva XXL iPod.  Yes, that rectangular black monstrosity is a 200 pound behemoth perched on top of the estate sale cabinets from a neighborhood artist. The fact that it has iPad in this name attest to its age. Even though it looks like an entertainment console, it is actually a sub woofer and with speakers right in the middle of it.  Which works pretty great, for watching HBO or Netflix on the computer, but the imaging stinks for music. So I am looking for a quality bookshelf speaker/amp or an active speaker to perch on top of the old Geneva so I can actually listen to music directed at my ears and not my belly button. Moving it from the floor to the elevated stand on top of the cabinets made a a big difference, but it was putting lipstick on a pig - I should comment that the sub woofer is actually quite good and I can use the RCA connection from the Dave to add just the subwoofer if I wished to the new setup.  I can also use the master 9 headphone amp for a preamp so additional connections if need be. The low bass extension sounds meatier and deeper than the Kii three speakers I have for my main listening room/ 2 channel home theater.  Make no mistake, I find the Kii three speakers to be nothing short of amazing. I have never entertained moving them to this room - because the DAC is also great in the Kii and I want to make the Dave earn its keep. 

So in addition to listening to the Abyss, I want to have a proper speaker set up for what is, for all intents and purposes, near field listening.   It has to be four figures and no more, or else Mrs Maggotbrain will decapitate the head that is listening to the setup, thus defeating the purpose of listening pleasure. 
The options I have come up with so far:

1. Kef Reference 1/Lyndorf SDA 2400 Stereo Power Amp - i listened to a Kef LS50 once and was impressed - I figure the reference 1 would handily beat it’s little brother.  
2. ATC SCM25A Pro - like the Kii with an amp inside, but analog inside so the Dave could work its magic. 
3. Klipsch Fortes and a Macintosh solid state power amp - for rocking out. I know tat I’m supposed to use tubes with these, but a lot of time I use these at five in the morning and I don’t wanna wait for tubes to warm up without any caffeine in my system 

 I should note that I live in Hawaii, over two thousand miles away from civilization, so I do not have ready access to a robust audiophile store.  Whatever I get here basically has to get shipped here, so I hope to inform my decision with the opinions of the enlightened minds here before wasting hundreds of dollars on shipping  on unnecessary returns.  

Since pairing the m scaler with Dave, I am happy to say I am down twenty pounds and multiple belt notches - due in no small part to the crazy setup I have that has been enlivened by the Chord duo.


----------



## MaggotBrain (Feb 21, 2019)

I should also mention that the room isn’t air conditioned so I was hoping to avoid a big heat generating amp if possible. Thank you so much!


----------



## miketlse

I suggest using the DAVE to direct drive nearfield speakers, because you could then avoid the need for a heat generating amp.

There are quite a few posts on the DAVE thread about direct driving speakers, so you will be able to find some more detailed information.

I don't use a DAVE, but I direct drive speakers using a Hugo 2. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831345/page-928#post-14423757
I have managed good results using the Wharfedales, some Monitor Audio Silvers, plus Focal Aria 936 floorstanders, - the least efficient of these are 86 dB.

The DAVE has twice the output power of the Hugo 2, so you should be able to direct drive a wide variety of speakers with no difficulty - the biggest constraint will be your budget.
You will get many suggestions for speakers, but I suggest first trying the concept, with speakers that you already have, or a pair that you can borrow, or buy cheaply second hand.
If you like the concept of direct driving, you would then have time to decide on your long-term choice of speakers, that align with your budget.


----------



## skootb

Triode User said:


> Is this for speakers? I have settled on Pass Labs XA60.8 after trying many including the Chord SCM 1200 Mk2 power amp.




The xa60.8 is the best amp I ever owned. I only sold them because I had to downsize


----------



## koven

Any cable recommendations for connecting DAVE direct to speaker? I am looking at some Omega speakers to try w/ DAVE.


----------



## iDesign (Feb 21, 2019)

koven said:


> Any cable recommendations for connecting DAVE direct to speaker? I am looking at some Omega speakers to try w/ DAVE.


Omega recommends Zenwave because they offer a cable specifically for the DAVE.


----------



## koven

iDesign said:


> Omega recommends Zenwave because they offer a cable specifically for the DAVE.



Ah excellent thanks!


----------



## Triode User (Feb 22, 2019)

koven said:


> Any cable recommendations for connecting DAVE direct to speaker? I am looking at some Omega speakers to try w/ DAVE.



I think there is an argument for using traditional off the shelf speaker cables with banana plus on both ends and using a short XLR to banana converter set at the Dave (and TT2) end. Especially if you are just trailing speakers that you might not keep. That way also you will have speaker cables that will appeal to the wider market if you decide to sell them at a later date.

Rob Watts gave a detailed summary of how he made his converter tails. I did it slightly differently in that I used 6mm2 cables rather than multiple smaller diameter cables to get the cross sectional area. Also, I used Furutech XLR plugs because they can take larger diameter cable compared to Neutrik XLR. There are however various companies which people have mentioned as selling off the peg versions.

Also, because I was also trialing running speakers direct from Dave and TT2 I wasn't sure whether I wanted to run them in single ended or balanced mode hence why I connected all three pins to the XLR plugs. 

EDIT - it has been pointed out that the RCA output from Dave is lower impedance and so is preferable to the XLR. I have made similar short RCA to banana conversion leads for Dave and forgot to mention that.

Hope this helps. (click on the thumbnail image to view it at a larger size)


----------



## koven

Interesting, that is helpful I will look into that as well thanks.


----------



## onlychild

I’m also thinking about Omega speakers to run off Dave, but want to run a JL sub also.    

Are people hooking up the sub via Dave XLR and the Omega speakers from the RCA out?


----------



## ray-dude

onlychild said:


> I’m also thinking about Omega speakers to run off Dave, but want to run a JL sub also.
> 
> Are people hooking up the sub via Dave XLR and the Omega speakers from the RCA out?



That's how I have my system set up.  Before investing in a JL sub (if you haven't already), I HIGHLY recommend tracking down a Voxativ bass unit to evaluate.  It is a magical pairing with the Omegas direct from DAVE/TT2, and scales spectacularly well when you add HMS.

My baseline is a JL Audio Fathom F112v2, but for music (esp. mscaled music), the Voxativ bass units are in a *completely* different league (esp. when paired with the Omegas and Voxativ speakers).  For movies, Fathom still wins.


----------



## onlychild

ray-dude said:


> That's how I have my system set up.  Before investing in a JL sub (if you haven't already), I HIGHLY recommend tracking down a Voxativ bass unit to evaluate.  It is a magical pairing with the Omegas direct from DAVE/TT2, and scales spectacularly well when you add HMS.
> 
> My baseline is a JL Audio Fathom F112v2, but for music (esp. mscaled music), the Voxativ bass units are in a *completely* different league (esp. when paired with the Omegas and Voxativ speakers).  For movies, Fathom still wins.




Ray,

Is the bass unit you’re referring to the one that comes with the 9.87 system?

I’ve been eyeing that system for some time.


----------



## ray-dude

The Pi bass unit (that comes with the 9.87s) is otherworldly, but also very expensive

The Z bass units (single 106dB driver instead of 2, class D amp instead of class AB) is roughly the same price as the fathom and WAY better for musicality (esp with the remarkable precision you get woth mScaler and Chord dacs)

Absolutely must hear piece of kit if you’re heading down the direct connected speaker path.  The Pi bass units are the best I’ve ever heard and create an amazing sense of reality and space with the lower resonances. The Z bass unit is the kid brother, but also spectacular. 

My current ultimate audio system for civilians is the Omega SAMs, TT2, and the Vox Z bass unit.  If you’re feeling spry, add a HMS. If you’re feeling more spry, add a Vox speaker and start climbing the driver lineup, then add a DAVE.


----------



## HeeBroG

Triode User said:


> I think there is an argument for using traditional off the shelf speaker cables with banana plus on both ends and using a short XLR to banana converter set at the Dave (and TT2) end. Especially if you are just trailing speakers that you might not keep. That way also you will have speaker cables that will appeal to the wider market if you decide to sell them at a later date.
> ATTACH]2628194[/ATTACH]




I think direct drive from DAVE at least (...not sure about TT2) is best via the single ended RCA outputs as that is the one with the low output impedance.
Rather than having several junction points, I got Dave at Zenwave to make me RCA to spade connector speaker cable which works very well.

G


----------



## Triode User

HeeBroG said:


> I think direct drive from DAVE at least (...not sure about TT2) is best via the single ended RCA outputs as that is the one with the low output impedance.
> Rather than having several junction points, I got Dave at Zenwave to make me RCA to spade connector speaker cable which works very well.
> G



Thanks for that. I have gone back and edited my post to clarify. Nick


----------



## x RELIC x (Feb 22, 2019)

HeeBroG said:


> I think direct drive from DAVE at least (...not sure about TT2) is best via the single ended RCA outputs as that is the one with the low output impedance.



Yeah, the XLR out from DAVE has extremely low Current output and won’t drive really anything. It is only meant to feed Voltage to an external amp.

On the other hand the TT2 has 6A rms Current output from the XLR so, yeah, not really an issue from TT2.


----------



## koven (Feb 22, 2019)

NimitraS, you say?


----------



## music_man (Feb 23, 2019)

PSA DS Senior has shelved it. Well, actually put it on my TV! Only better is $40,000+ IMO. The DS Senior has really evolved with consistently rewritten firmware. Not bashing of course YMMV. Now has evolved to 50x DSD! for whatever that is worth. snowmass 3.05 ROM. It is really your ears and your ears only. however never heard TV like this before!


----------



## Tom Blake

Has anyone had an issue with DAVE spontaneously going into Headphone mode and muting the line outputs? Inserting and removing a headphone cable clears the issue. It has only happened a few times but was curious if other have seen this?


----------



## GryphonGuy

Tom Blake said:


> Has anyone had an issue with DAVE spontaneously going into Headphone mode and muting the line outputs? Inserting and removing a headphone cable clears the issue. It has only happened a few times but was curious if other have seen this?



Only when physically inserting or removing a headphone plug.


----------



## tunes

naynay said:


> .


I am still searching for the best amp either headphone or speaker to pair with the Dave and Susvara.  So far The Soundaware P1 balanced headphone amp versus more powerful First watt speaker amp J2 or F7 ($1k less but no balanced input) is what I am trying to decide upon as I have no way to listen to these wondering if anyone else has heard either of these amps with Susvara?


----------



## onlychild

tunes said:


> I am still searching for the best amp either headphone or speaker to pair with the Dave and Susvara.  So far The Soundaware P1 balanced headphone amp versus more powerful First watt speaker amp J2 or F7 ($1k less but no balanced input) is what I am trying to decide upon as I have no way to listen to these wondering if anyone else has heard either of these amps with Susvara?



What about the Chord Etude to run the Susvara?  I heard they love speaker amps.


----------



## tunes

onlychild said:


> What about the Chord Etude to run the Susvara?  I heard they love speaker amps.


Wouldn’t that be overkill in terms of raw power?
I wonder if anyone has tried driving the Susvara directly from the Etude?  It’s a bit over what I wanted to pay unless can get a good discount.


----------



## tunes (Feb 24, 2019)

Jawed said:


> Hugo TT 2 has the power. Pity the pulse array and all the rest are not like DAVE. So with power-hungry headphones you have the choice:
> 
> DAVE + headphone amp that spoils the transparency and musicality but provides power and control (which will recover musicality that DAVE loses when feeding the headphones directly due to lack of power)
> 
> ...


What about using the Etude driving the Susvara direct with Dave?  Is it too much power?  Is this the kind of amp that will give more transparency than other dedicated headphone amps or speaker amps??


----------



## jarnopp

tunes said:


> What about using the Etude driving the Susvara direct with Dave?  Is it too much power?  Is this the kind of amp that will give more transparency than other dedicated headphone amps or speaker amps??



I have driven the HE-6 with a 150 watt/channel speaker amp. Just be careful with the volume control, but certainly no detriment to the sound 

And Rob Watts has had this to say about the Etude (towards end of the post):
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hug...official-thread.879425/page-109#post-14461311


----------



## PhenixS1970 (Feb 24, 2019)

Impatiently waiting for the arrival of the DAVE I purchased earlier this week (pickup scheduled at the dealer next week Friday) 

My future system:
Head-fi: BlueSound Node 2 -> DAVE -> Focal Utopia
2 Channel: Bluesound Node 2 -> DAVE -> Sugden A21SE -> Harbeth m30.1


----------



## N15M0

HI I just gotten the Dave and when I stream from Spotify, my Dave is showing 44.1 kHz but from the Dave menu, I can go to the OSX Audit MIDI Setup to change the rate to something I like. Is there any improvement in terms of sound quality when I am playing songs from Spotify if I set the rate to like 192? Thanks.


----------



## Triode User

N15M0 said:


> HI I just gotten the Dave and when I stream from Spotify, my Dave is showing 44.1 kHz but from the Dave menu, I can go to the OSX Audit MIDI Setup to change the rate to something I like. Is there any improvement in terms of sound quality when I am playing songs from Spotify if I set the rate to like 192? Thanks.



In my opinion, NO, there is not an improvement in quality. 

Leave it at the default streaming rate rather than trying to upscale prior to Dave (unless of course the  upscaling is done by a Blku2 or Hugo MScaler).


----------



## N15M0

Triode User said:


> In my opinion, NO, there is not an improvement in quality.
> 
> Leave it at the default streaming rate rather than trying to upscale prior to Dave (unless of course the  upscaling is done by a Blku2 or Hugo MScaler).



OK thanks. Btw do you turn off your dave or leave it on 24/7?


----------



## Triode User (Feb 24, 2019)

N15M0 said:


> OK thanks. Btw do you turn off your dave or leave it on 24/7?



I leave it on 24/7 but put it in standby whenever I can remember (which is not often). If nothing else, leaving it on removes any issues of a switch on noise through amps. (Edit to say that of course Dave self mutes for a short period upon switch on, but there might be a pop with switch off so turn off amps first).


----------



## N15M0

So its better to leave it on then switching it off?


----------



## Triode User

My own philosophy is that I prefer to leave hifi kit on rather than subject it to hundreds of switch on / switch off cycles per year but if you ask 100 different people you will get 100 different answers to your question. (This does not apply to valve kit or Class A amps which I always switch off).

I have an amplifier in my kitchen which has been on continuously for the last 20+ years apart from switching it off for an hour last year when I recapped the power supply.


----------



## GryphonGuy

tunes said:


> I am still searching for the best amp either headphone or speaker to pair with the Dave and Susvara.  So far The Soundaware P1 balanced headphone amp versus more powerful First watt speaker amp J2 or F7 ($1k less but no balanced input) is what I am trying to decide upon as I have no way to listen to these wondering if anyone else has heard either of these amps with Susvara?



I recently had the privilege of auditioning Meze Empyrean headphones on the DAVE. Now my regular headphones are Focal Utopias but after 3 hours of auditioning in the shop (Thanks Zeppelin!), I came to the conclusion that I could live with either headphone (Utopia or Empyrean) when run directly from the DAVE.

The key difference that I could articulate after 3 hours was that the Focal Utopia puts you amongst the band on the stage (such is the tightness and accuracy of the soundstage) and the transients are really really strong through the Utopias. The Empyreans (with a couple of notches of increased volume on the DAVE) sound like you are a couple of rows back from the performance because you can hear everything you can with the Utopias (with the same accuracy of timbre) but with just a slightly less impact or intensity like you would hear/feel if you moved metres away from the instruments.

Had I not already owned the Utopias, I may have leaned towards the Empyreans for their slightly wider soundstage and super comfortable fit (not tha Utopias are not comfortable, they are). But I cannot justify trading in my Utopias for a slightly different presentation on the DAVE.

Regards
GG


----------



## Galm

Quick question that google didn't help much with, should the HF Filter be on or off when listening to 16 bit 44.1 to 24 bit 96KHz audio?  This is m scaled if that matters.


----------



## PhenixS1970

Hi All.  Picking up my DAVE at the dealer on Friday.  My source is a BlueSound Node 2.  Good to go with the stock optical cable or worthwhile to invest in a compatible optical cable?  Thanks in advance for your feedback


----------



## iDesign (Feb 26, 2019)

PhenixS1970 said:


> Hi All.  Picking up my DAVE at the dealer on Friday.  My source is a BlueSound Node 2.  Good to go with the stock optical cable or worthwhile to invest in a compatible optical cable?  Thanks in advance for your feedback


The supplied TOSLINK cable is made by Pro-Signal and it costs $2.27.


----------



## PhenixS1970

iDesign said:


> The supplied TOSLINK cable is made by Pro-Signal and it costs $2.27.



Thank you for your reply  Am wondering if there are any performance gains with a more $ cable.  I have an Audioquest Diamond optical but I read that it's performance is limited to 96 due to socket incompatibility.


----------



## koven

PhenixS1970 said:


> Thank you for your reply  Am wondering if there are any performance gains with a more $ cable.  I have an Audioquest Diamond optical but I read that it's performance is limited to 96 due to socket incompatibility.



I used a Lifatec cable successfully in the past, doesn't break the bank either: http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html


----------



## PhenixS1970

koven said:


> I used a Lifatec cable successfully in the past, doesn't break the bank either: http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html



Thank you very much for the recommendation, koven.


----------



## PhenixS1970

Any other recommendations for a high quality optical cable to use with a BlueSound Node2 ? Mainstream brands are easier to score on short notice as I'm in Europe .


----------



## Paul Bjernklo (Mar 11, 2019)

PhenixS1970 said:


> Any other recommendations for a high quality optical cable to use with a BlueSound Node2 ? Mainstream brands are easier to score on short notice as I'm in Europe .



Kabeldirekt from amazon is normally recommended as Rob W himself use (Edit: used?) one of their cables he said (their optical). I have one to my Chromecast Audio. I also have a Sysconcept 24/192 from Canada from my CD transport that arrived quickly and is cheaper than lifatec I think but have not compared (but sounds much better to me than the stock cable I got for my Hugo 2) others say that QED Reference Quartz glass cable is best... but again not cheap. Maybe try the Kabeldirekt first as so cheap and then consider alternatives?


----------



## PhenixS1970 (Feb 26, 2019)

Paul Bjernklo said:


> Kabeldirekt from amazon is normally recommended as Rob W himself use one of their cables he said (maybe not their optical). I have one to my Chromecast Audio. I also have a Sysconcept 24/192 from Canada from my CD transport that arrived quickly and is cheaper than lifatec I think but have not compared (but sounds much better to me than the stock cable I got for my Hugo 2) others say that QED Reference Quartz glass cable is best... but again not cheap. Maybe try the Kabeldirekt first as so cheap and then consider alternatives?



Thank you very much for the info Paul.  It’s nice to get some options here 

I just puchased the KabelDirekt Pro cable and will be delivered before I pick up DAVE.  Indeed a no brainer $ to give a try.  Been reading up on this very educational thread and my understanding is that all that matters is getting a good fit to ensure 192 but there is no need for bling bling cables soundwise.  DAVE will sort it ou soundwise


----------



## Galm

Quick question that google didn't help much with, should the HF Filter be on or off when listening to 16 bit 44.1 to 24 bit 96KHz audio? This is m scaled if that matters.

Basically when should the HF Filter be on and does it matter?


----------



## lovethatsound

Galm said:


> Quick question that google didn't help much with, should the HF Filter be on or off when listening to 16 bit 44.1 to 24 bit 96KHz audio? This is m scaled if that matters.
> 
> Basically when should the HF Filter be on and does it matter?


IF you're using the Dave by it's self,then the hf filter should be on,according to Rob.If m- scaled it should be off .


----------



## ecwl

Galm said:


> Quick question that google didn't help much with, should the HF Filter be on or off when listening to 16 bit 44.1 to 24 bit 96KHz audio? This is m scaled if that matters.
> 
> Basically when should the HF Filter be on and does it matter?


Rob watts actually answered this in the past. If the signal is M-scaled, you shouldn’t hear a difference with HF filter turned on or off for 16 bit 44kHz signals. However, for 96kHz signals, HF filter turned on would filter out some noise/signal above 20kHz. Even though that noise would not be audible, once it gets into your DAC/preamp/amp analog circuitry, it can increase noise in the audible range and make the sound brighter and harsher. This is why Rob Watts recommends turning HF filter on when listening to high-resolution music. 

I leave my HF filter on all the time. That said, you should listen and see what you prefer.


----------



## Foxman50

Two posts, polar opposite replies. You have to love forums


----------



## JaZZ (Feb 28, 2019)

ecwl said:


> Rob watts actually answered this in the past. If the signal is M-scaled,* you shouldn’t hear a difference with HF filter turned on or off for 16 bit 44kHz signals.* However, for 96kHz signals, HF filter turned on would filter out some noise/signal above 20kHz. Even though that noise would not be audible, once it gets into your DAC/preamp/amp analog circuitry, it can increase noise in the audible range and make the sound brighter and harsher. This is why Rob Watts recommends turning HF filter on when listening to high-resolution music.


In fact I can hear a (minimal) difference also with 44.1 kHz recordings and M Scaler in the chain. It's the result of the ~1 dB drop-off at 20 kHz with its smooth slope.



Foxman50 said:


> Two posts, polar opposite replies. You have to love forums


It's easy: _lovethatsound_'s memory is playing tricks on him. According to Rob the M Scaler doesn't make the HF filter obsolete, as it accurately reproduces all ultrasonic artifacts in a recording.


----------



## ecwl

Foxman50 said:


> Two posts, polar opposite replies. You have to love forums


@lovethatsound was correct as it was Rob Watts recommendation when Blu2 was released. But if you look at Rob Watts newer posts in the M-Scaler forum, he has changed his mind and recommended people to use HF filter at least for high resolution materials. In fact, oddly, he has not re-commented lately whether he still thinks there is no difference with or without the filter with 44kHz material.


----------



## Triode User (Mar 1, 2019)

A review of a different DAC but which uses Dave as a benchmark. This link dives in part way through and deals with the Dave and TT2 comparison to the other DAC and continues over the following two pages.

https://audiobacon.net/2019/02/28/d...ing_wp_cron=1551389783.7147099971771240234375


----------



## maxh22

Paul Bjernklo said:


> Kabeldirekt from amazon is normally recommended as Rob W himself use one of their cables he said (maybe not their optical). I have one to my Chromecast Audio. I also have a Sysconcept 24/192 from Canada from my CD transport that arrived quickly and is cheaper than lifatec I think but have not compared (but sounds much better to me than the stock cable I got for my Hugo 2) others say that QED Reference Quartz glass cable is best... but again not cheap. Maybe try the Kabeldirekt first as so cheap and then consider alternatives?



I think I know why Rob does not recommend the kabeldirekt optical and it may have to do with his laptops 3.5mm port. On my Msi labtop the the 3.5mm can occasionally get stuck and a few times it even popped out the metal ring. Since the OP’s source is using a standard jack this won’t be an issue..


----------



## Paul Bjernklo (Mar 1, 2019)

maxh22 said:


> I think I know why Rob does not recommend the kabeldirekt optical and it may have to do with his laptops 3.5mm port. On my Msi labtop the the 3.5mm can occasionally get stuck and a few times it even popped out the metal ring. Since the OP’s source is using a standard jack this won’t be an issue..



Hi, I did not say in my post that Rob W did not recommend Kabeldirekt optical. I referred to an old post where Rob said along the lines that any good quality cable will do the job and that he had good experience with Kabeldirekt. Rob may use the stock cables for all I know...

Edit: Found the post from Rob: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831345/page-156#post-13378988


----------



## PhenixS1970

I picked up my silver DAVE at the distributor late afternoon today.  Hooked it up...pressed play...and was stunned.  The timing of this little demon is amazing. I have been using a Resolution Audio Cantata dac for many years and had it upgraded to 3.0 in 2017...no puppy either.  I like both very much  but I wanted to simplify my system for headfi/2 channel.  Gave my gf a quick demo with the track ‘Liberty’ from Anette Askvik....got a loud WOW in return  Mission accomplished (surely I’ll add an m-scaler in summertime).


----------



## musicday

PhenixS1970 said:


> I picked up my silver DAVE at the distributor late afternoon today.  Hooked it up...pressed play...and was stunned.  The timing of this little demon is amazing. I have been using a Resolution Audio Cantata dac for many years and had it upgraded to 3.0 in 2017...no puppy either.  I like both very much  but I wanted to simplify my system for headfi/2 channel.  Gave my gf a quick demo with the track ‘Liberty’ from Anette Askvik....got a loud WOW in return  Mission accomplished (surely I’ll add an m-scaler in summertime).


Congratulations. What headphones are you using and have you heard the TT2? Let us know more about what you hear in your setup once you have more time


----------



## PhenixS1970

musicday said:


> Congratulations. What headphones are you using and have you heard the TT2? Let us know more about what you hear in your setup once you have more time



Thank you, musicday. I mainly listen with the Focal Utopia (I also have some midrange Grado headphones but I use these more for 'fun' and portable listen with Mojo/Poly).  I didn't hear the TT2 as my mind was set on getting a DAVE one day.  Seems that TT2 + HMS possibly/certainly(?) beats a solo DAVE but for me adding an HMS would be the next upgrade path and something to look forward to in a couple of months.  I did listen to the DAVE/Utopia last night..and just didn't want to stop  I'll report back when I had some more time to get used to my new setup (In my 2 channel setup at first glance the Cantata sounded a bit darker but DAVE certainly sounds more 3D).


----------



## Deftone

PhenixS1970 said:


> Thank you, musicday. I mainly listen with the Focal Utopia (I also have some midrange Grado headphones but I use these more for 'fun' and portable listen with Mojo/Poly).  I didn't hear the TT2 as my mind was set on getting a DAVE one day.  Seems that TT2 + HMS possibly/certainly(?) beats a solo DAVE but for me adding an HMS would be the next upgrade path and something to look forward to in a couple of months.  I did listen to the DAVE/Utopia last night..and just didn't want to stop  I'll report back when I had some more time to get used to my new setup (In my 2 channel setup at first glance the Cantata sounded a bit darker but DAVE certainly sounds more 3D).



The design of the RA Cantata is beautiful, i wonder if thats where Mytek got their inspiration from especially Manhattan2 or a unlikely coincidence.


----------



## musickid

While some of us tantalise their girlfriends with dave's others lead a solitary bachelors life with only their hugo 2's and mscalers to keep them warm at night......oh my......


----------



## PhenixS1970

So it’s been a few days days now since I have DAVE....this is such a great dac  For completeness on the ‘toslink compatibility’ I can confirm that the stock cable streams 192kh without issues with a BlueSound Node 2.  However, my Audioquest Diamond is limited to 96khz.  That has been reported here before but with the Audioquest-BlueSound-Resolution Audio Cantata I was also limited to 96khz.  As the Audioquest ‘locks’ on DAVE end and not on the BlueSound I suspect it’s the streamer which causes the khz limitation.  I didn’t bother to further troubleshoot this with The Cantata as I only had a few 192khz albums but somehow DAVE compelled me to $ on a Qobuz highrez subscription .


----------



## naynay

Anyone thinking of trying Dave direct from RCA to Banana terminal speakers at a low cost these sound great at £11.50 each.


----------



## sneeze

Does anyone know, it is possible to switch 110v to 220V to chord qbd76?


----------



## Mojo ideas

sneeze said:


> Does anyone know, it is possible to switch 110v to 220V to chord qbd76?


It automatically configures itself between input voltages so you don’t have to do anything.


----------



## sneeze

Mojo ideas said:


> It automatically configures itself between input voltages so you don’t have to do anything.


Really? It's great! All models? QBD76 HDSD too?


----------



## WilliamWykeham

If anyone is is in NYC, has a Dave, and wants to hear a SR1a (I sold my Utopia after hearing), I am trying to do an A/B test of my Qutest vs a Dave.  I have an Mscaler too.  I might be able to get my friend to bring a Pavane as well, which really impressed me on first listen (see @Torq review)


----------



## lithiumnk

WilliamWykeham said:


> If anyone is is in NYC, has a Dave, and wants to hear a SR1a (I sold my Utopia after hearing), I am trying to do an A/B test of my Qutest vs a Dave.  I have an Mscaler too.  I might be able to get my friend to bring a Pavane as well, which really impressed me on first listen (see @Torq review)


I had compared my pavaneL3/ambre with my friends hms-Dave on headtrip->Abyss phi/susvara/AT adx5000. I enjoyed Dave more with mscaler than Dave alone.It was a nice experience. 
Btw I prefer NOS sound signature.(sold my hugo2 after listening to Metrum Onyx) Both hms-dave & pavane sound stellar to me.
SR1A has gathered rave reviews. I like their design concept & tech.


----------



## music_man

I find $3,600 1 Meter Transparent 75 Ohm better than any optical. That being said latest firmware of Direct Stream Senior has surpassed Dave here. As well as QX-5 Twenty. It is getting close to my Select DAC II with double powerbases, fully upgraded. A few more Rev's and he might just have the last word. Worth checking out as it is only $7,000 with Bridge. Which makes it ROON and everything else.


----------



## yakaway

Is anyone using an external clock with chord DAVE? I’m considering MUTEC Ref 10 and the MC3 plus (usb input). 

If you have had good success with an external clock, please chime in. 

Also, How easily do these integrate with BLU2 and DAVE? Or perhaps just DAVE?


----------



## Triode User

yakaway said:


> Is anyone using an external clock with chord DAVE? I’m considering MUTEC Ref 10 and the MC3 plus (usb input).
> 
> If you have had good success with an external clock, please chime in.
> 
> Also, How easily do these integrate with BLU2 and DAVE? Or perhaps just DAVE?



No I haven’t. The received wisdom is that all you will probably achieve is to add some RF noise to the signal which would be perceived as brightness or be mistaken for extra soundstage. The Dave is very transparent and is ruthless in revealing issues such as RF noise. 

So my advice is not to waste your money.


----------



## naynay

Are there many users running Dave direct to speakers using RCA?
Ive switched to this temporary to try and im liking it more than going through my amp.
I take it the Dave Preamp mode is more than capable of handling this and long term use will do no damage?


----------



## ray-dude

I've been running exclusively this way for over a year now, first to Omega Super Alnico Monitors and now to Voxativ 9.87's with 4D drivers.  I completely swapped out everything in my 2 channel chain (except DAVE) after I heard this.  If you really want to hear something special, give a listen to the Omega SAMs direct from DAVE in near field.  That is the Everest of transparency and imaging,


----------



## ZappaMan

ray-dude said:


> I've been running exclusively this way for over a year now, first to Omega Super Alnico Monitors and now to Voxativ 9.87's with 4D drivers.  I completely swapped out everything in my 2 channel chain (except DAVE) after I heard this.  If you really want to hear something special, give a listen to the Omega SAMs direct from DAVE in near field.  That is the Everest of transparency and imaging,


cough


----------



## Triode User

ray-dude said:


> I've been running exclusively this way for over a year now, first to Omega Super Alnico Monitors and now to Voxativ 9.87's with 4D drivers.  I completely swapped out everything in my 2 channel chain (except DAVE) after I heard this.  If you really want to hear something special, give a listen to the Omega SAMs direct from DAVE in near field.  That is the Everest of transparency and imaging,



That might be K2 but my Dave and my ATC150ASL or my Spendor SP200 + Pass Labs are Everest. If only the big pond wasn’t between us we could have a bake off.


----------



## ray-dude

Triode User said:


> That might be K2 but my Dave and my ATC150ASL or my Spendor SP200 + Pass Labs are Everest. If only the big pond wasn’t between us we could have a bake off.




+1000 brother.  I'd love hear all this kit side by side


----------



## Triode User

ray-dude said:


> +1000 brother.  I'd love hear all this kit side by side



Yeah, I think you and I could have some fun together. If you ever cross the pond please do tell me as you would be most welcome and red fermented grape juice and Colston Bassett Stilton is always on offer.


----------



## ray-dude

Triode User said:


> Yeah, I think you and I could have some fun together. If you ever cross the pond please do tell me as you would be most welcome and red fermented grape juice and Colston Bassett Stilton is always on offer.



Same for you Nick.  We'd mix it up with Tequilla and fish tacos and ocean sunsets on our side of the pond... (BYO moldy cheeses!)


----------



## HeeBroG

Triode User said:


> That might be K2 but my Dave and my ATC150ASL or my Spendor SP200 + Pass Labs are Everest. If only the big pond wasn’t between us we could have a bake off.



I also run DAVE/BLU2 direct to Voxativ 9.87/RELG1MKIIx2.
The transparency is very special indeed.

I brought DAVE over to a friends place who runs Mola Mola Makua/DAC via the latest model ATC150ASL "Tower Series".
We tried the DAVE connected to the Makua preamp via Analysis Plus Silver Oval interconnects 
DAVE was connected to the ATC 150ASL via Stealth Sakra balanced cables.

We were a little surprised at a slight dip in transparency compared to running DAVE direct to ATC150ASL.
I don't have any experience with preamps but my friend said he has never heard a digital preamp sound as good as DAVE.

Unfortunately it would be too difficult to compare large speakers in the same listening room with very specific setup needs/optimization.
With the usual variables of room acoustics/server/cables/power etc. between my friends place and mine, my take is that the ATC150ASL strengths are in the lower midrange and sheer macrodynamic punch. 
There is serious headroom available if you like your music loud! 
I think it is a fantastic match with DAVE +/- BLU2 given the plug and play status with balanced cables.

Despite 100+dB efficiency Voxativ drivers, 2W from DAVE is still only 2W.
What we do get however is a special transparency in the upper midrange and treble.
Perhaps the forthcoming digital amps from Chord will give us the headroom for those that crave it.

K2/Everest? Who knows but both camps are very happy!

Geoff


----------



## Triode User

HeeBroG said:


> I also run DAVE/BLU2 direct to Voxativ 9.87/RELG1MKIIx2.
> The transparency is very special indeed.
> 
> I brought DAVE over to a friends place who runs Mola Mola Makua/DAC via the latest model ATC150ASL "Tower Series".
> ...



Hi Geoff,

Thanks for that note. My ATC150ASL have just come back from the factory and have been updated to 100% current 2019 spec. Mine are not the tower version but the extra cabinet volume to create tower appearance does not communicate with the main volume of the speaker so acoustically mine should be exactly the same as your friend's tower version. I also tried various preamps between Dave and the ATC active but concluded that it was not possible to improve on Dave direct (which is hardly surprising really). Some of the preamps gave a bit of extra drive to the bass and lower mids but in effect that was just colouration and with lesser transparency compared to Dave direct.

Regarding the cables from Dave to the ATC actives I have not been able to improve so far on Belden star quad L-4E6S cable at about 1/1000th of the cost of balanced cables used in your listening (although I would be very interested to hear those Stealth Sakra cables!)

I have tried both Dave and TT2 direct running my passive Spendor SP200 speakers and whilst the transparency was absolutely beguiling with both of these DACs direct to speakers I missed the sound at the levels I sometimes like to play when using my Pass Labs XA60.8 monoblocs. I think that you and me both will be waiting for the monobloc DX amps for that extra headroom!


----------



## erik701

It has been several months, since the day, when I received my Hugo TT2. I promised you guys, that as former Dave owner I will post some impressions then, so here I am. 

_Please take in mind, that English is not my native language and I'm also not the best, in describing little difference in sound nuances, so my review/comparison will be a little bit different, but hopefully, still informative and helpful for many of you._

*Build quality and Design*
I purchased Hugo TT2 in silver finish and I have to say, that it looks much better in person, like on the photos. In my opinion, this is exactly the opposite scenario, like in case of Dave. It's a serious piece of hi-fi gear, even when some people can feel different, based on first impressions from advertisment pictures. Regarding build quality, I have to say, that it has been improved, when comparing to Dave imho. The finish of the Hugo TT2's surface is sublime. There are no visible screws, whole surface is so smooth. I don't know what kind of coating or painting process has been used, but it's much more appealing than Dave's surface finish. I like glass opening so much, the way how LED light represents the sample rate is pretty cool. Every person, not familiar with Chord's products, is asking why it is different every time and what does it represent. I have to admit, that with Dave I didn't pay so much attention to sample rate of currently played track, even when it has been represented on the screen of my music player, but now, with every next album I'm always rotating my head to the side, to check, what colour is shining through the glass of the Hugo TT2. One more cool feature, it has On/Off button. I know, it's essential, but only way how to turn on/off Dave is via red button on the remote control.

*Ergonomics*
This is only category, in which Hugo TT2 doesn't shine in my opinion. Personally, I had to reach out for manual several times in the first two weeks, to figure it out all options and the way how to change them. I was used to logic of controls from Dave, which was different, due to Dave's quite huge display and more buttons. It's not something, what would ruin your listening experience of course. I'm the kind of listener, who will figure it out best settings and leave it like that for the whole time. One more observation, there is no DSD, PCM mode anymore, so you don't have to change between these two mods, during the listening sessions. It's very useful, especially when you are listening to shuffle mode, and your collection consists of many DSD titles. Of course, Dave played DSD in PCM mode as well and vice versa, but I knew that it wasn't ideal and that is something that bothered me. 

*Performance and Sound*
OK, that's the part, which matter the most. Dave is wonderful DAC and if you are asking, if Hugo TT2 is better DAC, my answer is simple, no it isn't. I have to add, that Hugo TT2 is very close in terms of DAC performance, but it's not at the level of Dave in terms of DAC performance. Dave is an older product, Hugo TT2 may have better design of PCB, more optimized software, but Dave has more powerful FPGA, which will be beaten only by Dave2, when it will be released. On the other hand, Hugo TT2 gained some muscles and it can deliver significantly more power to the headphones than Dave. 
I really like how Hugo TT2 performs. Sound is tighter and a little bit darker in my opinion. It is not as resolving as Dave, you wouldn't be able to hear so many details, as you would hear on Dave, but it's applicable only to some very well recorded songs, during the critical listening session. To be honest, I like my Audeze LCD-4 powered by Hugo TT2 more, than I used to like them when listening straight from Dave's headphone output. I'm not sure, if it's due to more power, or different (tighter) sound signature. Maybe both of these facts play some role.

*Summary/Verdict*
If I should be honest, there wasn't even one single day, when I missed my Dave. Yes, Dave is better DAC, but Hugo TT2 is simply better DAC/headphone amp combo. It's so versatile, so powerful, that you wouldn't be able to find any better combo around $5K MSRP. My advice would be, if you already have high-end headphone amp, or you need DAC to feed your speaker setup as well (you need standalone DAC), go for DAVE. If you are headphone enthusiast and you own power hungry planar magnetic headphones, or you want elegant all in one solution, or maybe your budget for a headphone amp and DAC is around $5K, go for Hugo TT2. Rob Watts is a genius and his each next product is better and better, blowing everybody's mind again and again, in terms of what's possible. I'm very happy that I pulled a trigger, replaced Dave with all need for expensive power cable, interconnects, along with Moon 430HA amp for one "magic box" called *Chord Hugo TT2*.

As this is Dave thread, I will share my personal wishlist for Dave2. I know, we are more than 1 year, maybe more than 2 years away from Dave2 announcement, but I know, that it is at least in Rob's mind, so here it is:
_- *Glass opening*. I would like to get glass opening on the Dave2 chassis, something like we have on Hugo TT2. It would be very cool to see some internals of Chord's flagship DAC as well.
- *Better display*. For sure, next generation of Dave will have display, to show all important information. I'm not sure, if OLED would be the best option, as it will show static information, but IPS LCD with better viewing angles would be nice.
- *On/Off button on the chassis*. To have the ability wake it up from stand by mode by pressing the button on chassis and not have to reach out for the remote control._


----------



## supabayes

My Dave was purchased in the UK in Oct 2016. My dealer took it back to Chord in Jun 2018 to repair left channel clipping. The problem was a transistor in the PSU. All six were replaced by Chord with ones of higher value and software updated to latest. Unfortunately, now, the right channel would buzz and cut off sound in headphone, RCA and XLR out. The Dave would give out intermittent relay clicking while music plays in the left channel and nothing in the right channel. This happens for all digital input whether optical, BNC and USB. I have tried powering off the Dave and restarting but the problem persists. Has anyone else experienced this or other problem with your Dave?

I am concerned about the reliability of my Dave to develop issue in both channels within the first 3 years of owning it. I am glad that it is covered for 5 years warranty in the UK but I hate to think what other problem this unit may develop as we approach the end of the 5 years.


----------



## Triode User

supabayes said:


> My Dave was purchased in the UK in Oct 2016. My dealer took it back to Chord in Jun 2018 to repair left channel clipping. The problem was a transistor in the PSU. All six were replaced by Chord with ones of higher value and software updated to latest. Unfortunately, now, the right channel would buzz and cut off sound in headphone, RCA and XLR out. The Dave would give out intermittent relay clicking while music plays in the left channel and nothing in the right channel. This happens for all digital input whether optical, BNC and USB. I have tried powering off the Dave and restarting but the problem persists. Has anyone else experienced this or other problem with your Dave?
> 
> I am concerned about the reliability of my Dave to develop issue in both channels within the first 3 years of owning it. I am glad that it is covered for 5 years warranty in the UK but I hate to think what other problem this unit may develop as we approach the end of the 5 years.



Sorry I cannot help with your fault as I have not experienced it.

I had a Dave from soon after it was released and I listen for a good 8 hours a day and mostly longer. It is in fact powered up 24 hours a day 7 days a week because I am too lazy to switch off.

My Dave, along with the vast majority out there has been completely faultless and I suspect that you have just been unlucky. In my experience Chord are very good on customer service if anything goes wrong and I am sure they will fix your Dave. I have had other kit which has gone wrong a couple of times and been fixed and I wondered about the long term life but it has been fine ever since.


----------



## Arcabonne

supabayes said:


> My Dave was purchased in the UK in Oct 2016. My dealer took it back to Chord in Jun 2018 to repair left channel clipping. The problem was a transistor in the PSU. All six were replaced by Chord with ones of higher value and software updated to latest. Unfortunately, now, the right channel would buzz and cut off sound in headphone, RCA and XLR out. The Dave would give out intermittent relay clicking while music plays in the left channel and nothing in the right channel. This happens for all digital input whether optical, BNC and USB. I have tried powering off the Dave and restarting but the problem persists. Has anyone else experienced this or other problem with your Dave?
> 
> I am concerned about the reliability of my Dave to develop issue in both channels within the first 3 years of owning it. I am glad that it is covered for 5 years warranty in the UK but I hate to think what other problem this unit may develop as we approach the end of the 5 years.




Something like this happened to me, the display went out of order and a signal came from the device as from a fryer (from the device directly, not from an exit). Round trip to England, a card was replaced. Then all right.


----------



## skootb

supabayes said:


> software updated to latest.



software update?


----------



## Foxman50

How do you check the software version


----------



## Mikey99

I believe flash memory can be updated at the factory.


----------



## supabayes

skootb said:


> software update?


I was told by my dealer. No idea what it meant. I didn’t observe any difference in the behaviour of the unit or sound quality.


----------



## iDesign (Mar 26, 2019)

supabayes said:


> I was told by my dealer


Exactly. Allow Chord the opportunity to repair the unit again before posting about it publicly and causing others to speculate-- no one here has serviced a DAVE and can guide you. Chord never sold it claiming it was reliable.


----------



## supabayes

iDesign said:


> Exactly. Allow Chord the opportunity to repair the unit again before posting about it publicly and causing others to speculate-- no one here has serviced a DAVE and can guide you. Chord never sold it claiming it was reliable.


It’s not about speculating but sharing repair and fault information. No reason not to share factual information as I received from my dealer on what was done for the first repair and the fault that my Dave is having now.


----------



## ecwl

supabayes said:


> It’s not about speculating but sharing repair and fault information. No reason not to share factual information as I received from my dealer on what was done for the first repair and the fault that my Dave is having now.


I think you’ve been really unlucky but I would trust the Chord repair process. Having followed Chord forums for a while, I think their unit failure rate is very low. My Chord DAVE and Etude are rock solid. My Chord QBD76 actually skips when it played 24-bit music and I didn’t realize it until I upgraded to QBD76HDSD. After the upgrade, the unit was sent back to Chord for repair and the unit has been rock solid since. My Blu2 did have to be sent back to Chord a couple of times before it’s fully functional and once again it’s rock solid since. 
I know it really sucks when you realize your unit is broken but it’s mostly just bad luck from my experience whenever my audio gear breaks. The positive side is that the Chord repair services always take care of you.


----------



## STR-1

Mikey99 said:


> I believe flash memory can be updated at the factory.


This is the first I have heard about software being updated for the DAVE.  I’ve already negotiated with Chord for them to collect my DAVE for repair just as soon as I finish with the loan of a piece of equipment I am trying out.  The problem is with the on/off switch at the back.  It will be interesting to find out from the feedback whether the repair has included a software upgrade, and if it has, what exactly has been updated.


----------



## Mikey99

STR-1 said:


> This is the first I have heard about software being updated for the DAVE.  I’ve already negotiated with Chord for them to collect my DAVE for repair just as soon as I finish with the loan of a piece of equipment I am trying out.  The problem is with the on/off switch at the back.  It will be interesting to find out from the feedback whether the repair has included a software upgrade, and if it has, what exactly has been updated.


I was having an issue with drop-outs on the DAVE when connecting to HMS, which may have been a software issue according to a post by Rob Watts. My dealer contacted Chord and they said they could fix it at the factory by updating flash memory. However it was easier logistics for them and me to replace my relatively new unit, so that is what they did. No problem now.

So I deduce from this that software in an existing DAVE can be updated. But I have no idea if there are newer versions or not.


----------



## PhenixS1970 (Mar 28, 2019)

I have DAVE since a few weeks now.  I use it exclusively in DAC mode and with headphones.  However, if I put it in standy mode and power back on with the remote it always boots in pre amp mode. Isn’t DAVE supposed to retain the DAC mode setting? Thanks in advance for your feedback 

BE distributor answered this question.  Query closed.


----------



## odessamarin (Apr 12, 2019)

PhenixS1970 said:


> I have DAVE since a few weeks now.  I use it exclusively in DAC mode and with headphones.  However, if I put it in standy mode and power back on with the remote it always boots in pre amp mode. Isn’t DAVE supposed to retain the DAC mode setting? Thanks in advance for your feedback
> 
> BE distributor answered this question.  Query closed.



.. and what was the answer?

I am also happy Dave owner for 2 days )
Small first impression.. i found it better listened balanced output with amp, at least with my Grado.
It's night and day in compare to the direct SE output. Main difference space 3 dimensionality of the soundstage.
If I would give few best words to describe Dave sound, after you hear it for the first time is - clean (transparent) and neutral.


----------



## PhenixS1970

odessamarin said:


> .. and what was the answer?
> 
> I am also happy Dave owner for 2 days )
> Small first impression.. need to be listened balanced out with amp, at least with my Grado.
> It's night and day in compare to the direct SE output. Main difference space 3 dimensionality of the soundstage.



Hi Odessamarin,

Congratulations  He said it’s normal behaviour and can be considered a safety measure to avoid sending a full load to the speakers.  That would be an issue when connecting a power amp to DAVE and not paying attention (ok....you would notice, lol).


----------



## odessamarin

@Phenix

thanx.. you too!
But it think DAC mode is the same as 0dB pre amp mode. Correct? can somebody confirm please..


----------



## ecwl

odessamarin said:


> @Phenix
> 
> thanx.. you too!
> But it think DAC mode is the same as 0dB pre amp mode. Correct? can somebody confirm please..


3V is DAC mode which is -3dB on pre-amp mode.


----------



## odessamarin

ecwl said:


> 3V is DAC mode which is -3dB on pre-amp mode.


Perfect thx. So the same results if you set pre amp mode to -3dB is when you put Dave in DAC mode.


----------



## flyte3333 (Apr 13, 2019)

MaggotBrain said:


> I recognize that this is a headphone forum, but I respect and value the opinions of those who have the Chord Dave amplifier and seek to have input on a potential speaker amp pairing with the Chord Dave. I should stay in advance that my ““ listening room is a, ahem, unique one. As pictures speak louder than words, Above is the picture of my rig.



A year you'd rather forget? King James or Cavs... take your pick... 

Great gear you have all around (exercise room and main room with Kii3's)


----------



## MaggotBrain

Em2016 said:


> A year you'd rather forget? King James or Cavs... take your pick...
> 
> Great gear you have all around (exercise room and main room with Kii3's)



I’m sure many folks here can relate with the conversation I had with my doctor recently (and, I swear, this actually happened): 

Doctor: Your cholesterol is normal now.  I understand you don’t smoke or drink. You have been working out regularly and you start everyday with a veggie smoothie. I’m really impressed. Tell me, do you have any vices?
Me (chuckling): Hi-fi equipment. I like to have my wallet lose weight with me. 

The Cavs and LeBron have had better years, to be sure...but this disappointment was buoyed by the latest addition to the workout/listening room: a pair of ATC SCM ASL 100s! 

 Because of my good experience with the Kiis, I was looking for a great pair of amped speakers needing an assist from the MScaler/Dave. I honestly couldn’t be more pleased. I usually have a four figure rule for audio purchases but was willing to pay the price for an end game setup. I actually spend more time listening to these than the Kiis now, which says a lot, because to listen to these properly I made it so I have to actually be working out on the adaptive motion trainer (tricky, huh?) The Kiis hit like Mayweather, but the ATCs pound you like Tyson...and I can attest, having to lift these 140 pound suckers five feet up that these are definitely in a different weight class. I wanted the speaker equivalent of the Abyss 1266,  and I’m happy to say I’ve found it.


----------



## Triode User

MaggotBrain said:


> I’m sure many folks here can relate with the conversation I had with my doctor recently (and, I swear, this actually happened):
> 
> Doctor: Your cholesterol is normal now.  I understand you don’t smoke or drink. You have been working out regularly and you start everyday with a veggie smoothie. I’m really impressed. Tell me, do you have any vices?
> Me (chuckling): Hi-fi equipment. I like to have my wallet lose weight with me.
> ...



Great to hear about your ATC SCM 100ASL speakers (I have the 150 version). I have not heard the Kiis but I have heard the Dutch & Dutch and compared to my Dave and ATC actives I was not as impressed as I thought I would be. Bass was the first thing I noticed as not being up to what I expected. Interestingly I have been told by two different people that for some reason they thought that the Kiis and D&D actually sound better when fed an analogue signal from Dave than they do when fed a digital signal direct.


----------



## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> Great to hear about your ATC SCM 100ASL speakers (I have the 150 version). I have not heard the Kiis but I have heard the Dutch & Dutch and compared to my Dave and ATC actives I was not as impressed as I thought I would be. Bass was the first thing I noticed as not being up to what I expected. Interestingly I have been told by two different people that for some reason they thought that the Kiis and D&D actually sound better when fed an analogue signal from Dave than they do when fed a digital signal direct.



I heard the Dutch and Dutch the other day, and thought they were not very good at all, unless you like electronic music perhaps. Pity because they are small, light, have lots of smart DSP and cardioid technology. But nowhere near ATC for sheer, solid musical credibility.


----------



## ecwl

Triode User said:


> Great to hear about your ATC SCM 100ASL speakers (I have the 150 version). I have not heard the Kiis but I have heard the Dutch & Dutch and compared to my Dave and ATC actives I was not as impressed as I thought I would be. Bass was the first thing I noticed as not being up to what I expected. Interestingly I have been told by two different people that for some reason they thought that the Kiis and D&D actually sound better when fed an analogue signal from Dave than they do when fed a digital signal direct.


In many ways, this should not be a surprise. ATC uses analog crossover and class AB amps whereas Kii and D&D would involve ADC and class D amp which would worsen the timing accuracy significantly (even if the digital crossover offers a flatter and better frequency (and phase) response). Moreover, when DAVE is feeding Kii or D&D, the speakers’ ADC is probably digitizing at 96 or 192kHz whereas feeding Kii or D&D bitperfect CD 44kHz materials means using the inferior upsampling on their DACs compared to the superior one from DAVE.


----------



## flyte3333

ecwl said:


> In many ways, this should not be a surprise. ATC uses analog crossover and class AB amps whereas Kii and D&D would involve ADC and class D amp which would worsen the timing accuracy significantly (even if the digital crossover offers a flatter and better frequency (and phase) response). Moreover, when DAVE is feeding Kii or D&D, the speakers’ ADC is probably digitizing at 96 or 192kHz whereas feeding Kii or D&D bitperfect CD 44kHz materials means using the inferior upsampling on their DACs compared to the superior one from DAVE.



I assumed @Triode User heard the D&D 8C’s fed by digital signal? So no DD (double DAC lol) at play here?

I thought the comment about double DAC applied only to what he heard from others?


----------



## Triode User

Em2016 said:


> I assumed @Triode User heard the D&D 8C’s fed by digital signal? So no DD (double DAC lol) at play here?
> 
> I thought the comment about double DAC applied only to what he heard from others?



Yes, correct.


----------



## odessamarin (Apr 15, 2019)

.. having my first weekend with DAVE i get an interesting impression that describe how Dave can sound LIVE.
There was a moment in Audiophile Voices DSD - track 6, Round Mudnight.. I was so inside music mood.. then I did small cough, and I was embarrassed to disturb singer.. can you imagine this LOL.
I mean, I really feels it. Unbelievable. Crazy staff. Just wow.

.. Oh, and another one..on some tracks I have weird feelings, that voice of singer coming from my mouth. The sound stage is so real.. SO WEIRD. Do you have it? Or it's time to visit a doctor ))))

I think all this is an examples how our brain can realistically perceive sound when it well reconstructed... the music performance just became real.
I mean... yes all this is very pricey "toys" (DAC, AMP, Headphones) but at the end you may have a tool to actually almost visit this concerts, not just listen  Isn't it priceless?!


----------



## musickid

And for everything else there's mastercard......


----------



## odessamarin (Apr 18, 2019)

.. other observation. I think this "magic" Dave doing is not for free. What I found is that Dave elaborate signal mach more than other DAC i have. It always output audio results 200 - 300 ms later then others.
I think it's a quiet delay... Dave works hard on processing if it keeps data inside for that long.


----------



## Foxman50

@Rob Watts, Can you tell me if there is a maximum level Dave should be turned up too on both XLR and RCA outputs. 

I use XLR outputs to my amp, but found that the 6v drives the amp input to hard. Luckily my amp has variable input sens which ive increased from 4v to 8v which cures the issue.

However this has resulted in turning Dave up to 0db, and wondered what the max volume could be before any nasties start to show, or become audible.


----------



## GryphonGuy

odessamarin said:


> .. other observation. I think this "magic" Dave doing is not for free. What I found is that Dave elaborate signal mach more than other DAC i have. It always output audio results 200 - 300 ms later then others.
> I think it's a quiet delay... Dave works hard on processing if it keeps data inside for that long.



DAVE certainly processes music data. I have never thought to time it as the accurate transients, timbre and soundstaging of the recording is what DAVE is all about.

If your favourite story teller takes a fraction longer to tell a story than one not so funny or entertaining, the slight delay is absolutely worth it if you notice such things.

Regards
GG


----------



## Rob Watts

You need to be at +3 dB on the volume control before any possibility of clipping with Dave. With the M scaler attached it is +6dB.


----------



## musickid

Can someone explain why it is +6dB with mscaler attached?


----------



## Triode User

musickid said:


> Can someone explain why it is +6dB with mscaler attached?



The Mscaler reduces the Dave output level by 3dB so +6dB with mscaler is the same volume as +3dB without mscaler.


----------



## Foxman50

Rob Watts said:


> You need to be at +3 dB on the volume control before any possibility of clipping with Dave. With the M scaler attached it is +6dB.


Thanks Rob, much appreciated


----------



## tunes (Apr 20, 2019)

Foxman50 said:


> Thanks Rob, much appreciated


I am in process of selling my old Zana Deux headphone amp to a lucky buyer and needed to check it before sending as had not used it for over a year.  I hooked the line out from the same DAP (Questyle QP1R) that I use as a transport via optical out with my DAVE/Mscaler to the ZANA Deux and for fun listened with my Utopias and was blown away by how good it sounded.  I was surprised and a bit disappointed that when compared to my DAVE/Mscaler, the base and sub base on the Utopias was much better with the Zana Deux!?   So should I sell my DAVE and get a TT2 for better low end performance with the Utopias?  This unexpected.  However, the transparency, microdetail and acoustic dimensionally was better was Dave.


----------



## HeeBroG

I too have Utopia and DAVE/Blu2 but rarely use it now in favour of my speaker setup.
I would rather try another headphone directly driven by DAVE than go to TT2.
The Meze Empyrean would be top of the list. There may be better headphones out there but they would need an amp.


----------



## xxx1313 (Apr 21, 2019)

HeeBroG said:


> I too have Utopia and DAVE/Blu2 but rarely use it now in favour of my speaker setup.
> I would rather try another headphone directly driven by DAVE than go to TT2.
> The Meze Empyrean would be top of the list. There may be better headphones out there but they would need an amp.



I would say, try Empyrean and Stellia.  Maybe also HEK SE if you do not mind Hifiman's business practices (short upgrade cycle etc.).


----------



## tunes

HeeBroG said:


> I too have Utopia and DAVE/Blu2 but rarely use it now in favour of my speaker setup.
> I would rather try another headphone directly driven by DAVE than go to TT2.
> The Meze Empyrean would be top of the list. There may be better headphones out there but they would need an amp.


Curios, are you driving speakers with DAVE?  What is your speaker set up?


----------



## musickid (Apr 21, 2019)

Thanks Nick.


----------



## HeeBroG

tunes said:


> Curios, are you driving speakers with DAVE?  What is your speaker set up?



Direct drive Voxativ 9.87 with stereo pair REL G1 Mk II's


----------



## Arcabonne

Stupid question ... is there a way to use Dave's headphone output from an analog signal from a phono stage?


----------



## dac64

Arcabonne said:


> Stupid question ... is there a way to use Dave's headphone output from an analog signal from a phono stage?



What you  need is a chord Davina.


----------



## x RELIC x

Arcabonne said:


> Stupid question ... is there a way to use Dave's headphone output from an analog signal from a phono stage?



Nope. Digital input only on all Chord DACs.


----------



## Baten (May 3, 2019)

Rob Watts said:


> Component count is very important for transparency. Doubling the number of parts in the direct signal path does degrade depth perception and detail resolution.
> 
> But there is another problem with balanced operation. Imagine a balanced differential in, differential out amplifier. The input stage is normally a differential pair (maybe cascoded) with a constant current source. Now the input stage is free to move up and down to accommodate the common mode voltage - but the input stage common mode impedance is non linear, and if the common mode voltage has a signal component (it always will have due to component tolerances) then this will create a signal dependent error current, thereby generating distortion. Unfortunately, the negative feedback loop of the amplifier can't correct for this distortion as it can't see the error on the summing nodes. So there will always be a limit to the performance. With SE operation, this problem does not occur, as the differential input stage is clamped to ground.
> 
> ...



Hi Rob. If you happen to see this question,

If one were to use an AES to SPDIF converter, can Dave/Qutest(or even mojo for that matter) understand AES-3 over S/PDIF?


----------



## SCBob

Baten said:


> Hi Rob. If you happen to see this question,
> 
> If one were to use an AES to SPDIF converter, can Dave/Qutest(or even mojo for that matter) understand AES-3 over S/PDIF?


For connecting DAVE to Chord TToby amp to drive speakers is there any advantage to using DAVE balanced output as opposed to the RCA output?


----------



## Rob Watts

Baten said:


> Hi Rob. If you happen to see this question,
> 
> If one were to use an AES to SPDIF converter, can Dave/Qutest(or even mojo for that matter) understand AES-3 over S/PDIF?



In practice there is no real difference between AES3 and SPDIF as far as the data protocol is concerned so you are OK, all products will work fine - it just needs to be via the optical or coax inputs.


----------



## Baten

Rob Watts said:


> In practice there is no real difference between AES3 and SPDIF as far as the data protocol is concerned so you are OK, all products will work fine - it just needs to be via the optical or coax inputs.


Wow, thanks for getting back at me so quickly! Cool, no problem then


----------



## ecwl

SCBob said:


> For connecting DAVE to Chord TToby amp to drive speakers is there any advantage to using DAVE balanced output as opposed to the RCA output?


I recall @Rob Watts saying a long time ago that the noise level via RCA is slightly lower than Balanced but ultimately, it’ll depend on your setup and the amp design. And I don’t recall @Mojo ideas stating whether one connection method is better than another. 

That said, if you can afford it, you should really give the Etude a listen. The case work matches your DAVE and it sounds superb. I have only listened to older Chord amps so I’ve never listened to the TToby generation of Chord amps but I do think Etude is a leap in performance level and one of the top amplifiers out there with great neutrality and musicality.


----------



## Deano1974

Hey guys 

Im just about to pull the trigger on a Dave to add to my M Scaler and upgrade my Qutest

Is there any members here that have replaced the Qutest with the Dave and if so how big a difference was the change 

TBH im loving the Qutest & HMS combo but I have a chance to get a Dave at a fantastic price 

Your thoughts please and much appreciated

Cheers

Deano


----------



## Triode User

Deano1974 said:


> Hey guys
> Im just about to pull the trigger on a Dave to add to my M Scaler and upgrade my Qutest
> Is there any members here that have replaced the Qutest with the Dave and if so how big a difference was the change
> TBH im loving the Qutest & HMS combo but I have a chance to get a Dave at a fantastic price
> ...



I have not had a Qutest but I do have a TT2 and Dave and all I can say is that Dave is ahead of TT2 by some margin so I would expect the step from Qutest to be even bigger. 

You are unlikely to ever regret getting a Dave especially if you have an Mscaer.


----------



## odessamarin (May 7, 2019)

@Deano1974
I had Qutest.. sold and get Dave.
Difference like night and day. It just another sound signature. To my taste much much better one. Dave is more successor of the first Higo and TT. Like finalbsatamnet of this line. Qutest and company.. has more commercial tuned sound if you wish. I don't like.


----------



## naynay

Deano1974 said:


> Hey guys
> 
> Im just about to pull the trigger on a Dave to add to my M Scaler and upgrade my Qutest
> 
> ...



I have had Qutest > TT2 and finally ended with a Dave.
All are great sounding but the Dave definately has the edge especially regarding vocal music.


----------



## Deano1974

Triode User said:


> I have not had a Qutest but I do have a TT2 and Dave and all I can say is that Dave is ahead of TT2 by some margin so I would expect the step from Qutest to be even bigger.
> 
> You are unlikely to ever regret getting a Dave especially if you have an Mscaer.



Thank you, thats what I was thinking also


----------



## Deano1974

naynay said:


> I have had Qutest > TT2 and finally ended with a Dave.
> All are great sounding but the Dave definately has the edge especially regarding vocal music.



Thanks for the clarification!


----------



## Deano1974

odessamarin said:


> @Deano1974
> I had Qutest.. sold and get Dave.
> Difference like night and day. It just another sound signature. To my taste much much better one. Dave is more successor of the first Higo and TT. Like finalbsatamnet of this line. Qutest and company.. has more commercial tuned sound if you wish. I don't like.



Thank you for your thoughts, much appreciated!


----------



## tunes

Deano1974 said:


> Hey guys
> 
> Im just about to pull the trigger on a Dave to add to my M Scaler and upgrade my Qutest
> 
> ...


Has anyone yet honestly compared the DAVE plus minus Mscaler to the Sony DMP-Z1?


----------



## PhenixS1970

If anyone is looking to upgrade the stock optical cable I have a brand new Lifatec optical 50cm toslink for sale in the market section.  Tried and tested with DAVE / HMS and no drop outs with 192khz.  As I have recently added an Auralic G1 streamer and had to move around equipment on the rack the 50cm is unfortunately too short.  EU buyers only .


----------



## PhenixS1970

Placing an order with my dealer next week for the Chord "Etude" amplifier to complete my system .  I had a look at the on-line user manual and what puzzled me is that the "red" speaker terminals are indicated as being "negative".  I would expect these to be "positive" as is common ?


----------



## ecwl

PhenixS1970 said:


> Placing an order with my dealer next week for the Chord "Etude" amplifier to complete my system .  I had a look at the on-line user manual and what puzzled me is that the "red" speaker terminals are indicated as being "negative".  I would expect these to be "positive" as is common ?


Huh. That’s a very good point. I still connected black to black, red to red and my speakers are in phase. Not sure if it matters. Perhaps John Franks @Mojo ideas can comment.


----------



## PhenixS1970 (May 15, 2019)

ecwl said:


> Huh. That’s a very good point. I still connected black to black, red to red and my speakers are in phase. Not sure if it matters. Perhaps John Franks @Mojo ideas can comment.



My comment was based on section 3.4 of the user manual.
However I just saw in section 4.4 of the manual that "red' is "positive" so it seems that the "text" on the rear picture of Etude is in error in the manual.


----------



## Jiffi32

Just like to thank Nick @Triode User, had a dem today of an etude and various speakers to add to my Blu2Dave, ended up ordering ATC SCM40A's these speakers punch so far above their weight and match the Blu2Dave so well


----------



## Triode User

Jiffi32 said:


> Just like to thank Nick @Triode User, had a dem today of an etude and various speakers to add to my Blu2Dave, ended up ordering ATC SCM40A's these speakers punch so far above their weight and match the Blu2Dave so well



Thanks and welcome to the ATC club.


----------



## llamaluv

I have a 15 foot Kabeldirekt toslink cable arriving tomorrow. Plus a DAVE arriving on the same day to go with it. 

Can I expect to get a stable 192k connection with this cable at this length?


----------



## tunes

llamaluv said:


> I have a 15 foot Kabeldirekt toslink cable arriving tomorrow. Plus a DAVE arriving on the same day to go with it.
> 
> Can I expect to get a stable 192k connection with this cable at this length?


It should work!


----------



## hifipassion

Interested by DAVE... nevertheless could someone clarify some things for me ?
Does it have a linear power supply ? (i can answer myself: no)
Is it upgradeable ? (no)
Does It have a class A analog output stage ?
For this kind of money I would expect Dave to tick those boxes...


----------



## GryphonGuy

hifipassion said:


> Interested by DAVE... nevertheless could someone clarify some things for me ?
> Does it have a linear power supply ? (i can answer myself: no)
> Is it upgradeable ? (no)
> Does It have a class A analog output stage ?
> For this kind of money I would expect Dave to tick those boxes...



Once you hear it, it doesn't matter what the technical specifications are because whatever it is, it just delivers in spades! I have no plans of replacing it even after approximately 2 years of use.

Regards
GG


----------



## hifipassion

GryphonGuy said:


> Once you hear it, it doesn't matter what the technical specifications are because whatever it is, it just delivers in spades! I have no plans of replacing it even after approximately 2 years of use.
> 
> Regards
> GG


You use it mostly and appreciate it more as DAC or headphone amp ?


----------



## ecwl

hifipassion said:


> Interested by DAVE... nevertheless could someone clarify some things for me ?
> Does it have a linear power supply ? (i can answer myself: no)
> Is it upgradeable ? (no)
> Does It have a class A analog output stage ?
> For this kind of money I would expect Dave to tick those boxes...


You can upgrade DAVE by adding M-Scaler or Blu2. It does have a class A analog output stage or more specifically from what I understand the pulse array DAC provides sufficient voltage and current as an output which goes through a second order analog noise shaper to provide class A output. 
As for the linear power supply issue, the designer has said that power supply should not be considered as just the power supply but should include all the downstream filtering until your DAC or FPGA gets the actual DC power. So from his point of view the DC power that runs through the DAC and subsequently comes out of the analog output is better with lower noise level using a switch mode power supply compared to if he had design the whole DAC with a linear power supply. You might philosophically disagree with this but then you would have to figure out his design and rebuilt the DAC using a linear power supply, design all the subsequent power filtering to provide the lowest noise DC power to subsequent electronics to generate an improved analog output. 

That said, I have to acknowledge that I’ve now encountered some upstream sources (CD player or network streamers) that have sufficient ground plane leakage noise to get into DAVE despite the excellent galvanic isolation and some people might argue in those scenarios, you may be better off using linear power supply than switchmode power supply as it might lead to less leakage noise. Of course, I would argue maybe people should use better upstream sources. 

I use DAVE as a headphone amp and as a DAC/preamp for my speakers because I have found every preamp I have tried after DAVE to be insufficiently transparent to show off what DAVE can truly achieve. That said, some preamp does colour DAVE sound in a euphonic way that some might find pleasing but always at a cost of loss of transparency.

I think instead of basing your purchase decision on specs and design principles, you should listen to DAVE. You might hate the sound as we all have different preferences. On the other hand, if you’ve decided on your design specs, don’t listen to DAVE and buy the DAC that satisfies your specs as you’ll always be happy as you got what you want. Ignorance sometimes is bliss.


----------



## GryphonGuy

hifipassion said:


> You use it mostly and appreciate it more as DAC or headphone amp ?



Pretty much equal. I have a shift-worker co-occupied house so headphones are needed from time to time! Love the intimacy of headphone usage and love the spacial presentation and perceived accuracy of the timbre of instruments (This is a major difference to the market competitors in my experience) in digital pre-amp mode. I prefer the DAVE directly connected to my amp instead of going through a dedicated and legacy pre-amp even at the reference level Hi-Fi that I have.

Regards
GG


----------



## hifipassion

Of course I will listen to DAVE.
But I keep thinking of DAVE as a bigger 2 Qute or Qutest with a better chip and more inputs/outputs.
My experience so far with these less expensive DACs in the Chord range (2Qute and Qutest) was that they can sound very good for their money and they could sound very bad with the included power supply. 
Beyond a shadow of a doubt, for me, adding to them a linear power supply improved hugely the performance (Please accept and don't argue that I am on the side of the people that throw away the stock SMPS  ).
Yes the producer said they have downstream filtering, yeah yeah... 
And guess what... DAVE has one SMPS integrated. 
Maybe a little more elaborated one, more filtered, but ...
Take into account I have a power conditioner, quite expensive power cables, a very good network player... still something in my mind tells me that power supply and output stage matter a lot.
So how's DAVE for you ? how's the noise floor, the separation ?


----------



## Triode User

hifipassion said:


> And guess what... DAVE has one SMPS integrated.
> Maybe a little more elaborated one, more filtered, but ...
> Take into account I have a power conditioner, quite expensive power cables, a very good network player... still something in my mind tells me that power supply and output stage matter a lot.
> So how's DAVE for you ? how's the noise floor, the separation ?



“_So_ _how's_ _DAVE_ _for_ _you_ ? _how's_ _the_ _noise_ _floor_, _the_ _separation_?” 

The answer is, stunning and amazing.  Leagues above anything else I have heard in the Chord range. 

I sometimes wonder if Dave had an external smps whether people would be swopping it out for a lps? And if smps is a limiting factor in people’s minds then how come the Dave is so all conquering in its performance? The answer I guess is that its smps is not holding back the Dave performance. 

Just an idle thought but if people wish to try a better power supply for Qutest etc then maybe a Dave spec smps is one place for start rather than reaching for a lps which may in fact be inferior performance to the supplied smps. 

A final thought is that it is easy when hearing a changed sound to surmise that it is better based on an assumption that the lps must be better than a smps. Some lps are quite a bit worse than smps.


----------



## naynay

When adding power upgrades there should be no noticable change in the sound other than for it to sound a lot clearer and more detailed.
You can easily achieve this without having to go into the £1000 +


----------



## simorag

I recently upgraded my power conditioner and my music server AC cables to Audioquest Hurricane (High Current and Source versions respectively), being the DAVE fed by a Shunyata Alpha HC.
In this process I evaluated several cables from Cardas, Shunyata, Audioquest, Transparent, MIT.

I know expensive cables are a touchy subject, but in my system and to my ears they did make a difference.

However, in my experience the difference has not always been easy to hear and/or for the better, so I would advise trying by oneself as the last thing after the rig is well defined and consolidated. By the way, the most expensive cable has not necessarily been the one l liked more.

In the end, the kind of improvement I have got has been mainly in the area of contrast and naturalness. By 'contrast' I mean that music seem to emerge / float from a blacker background, thus making small details, imaging and dynamics easier to follow, but not in a distracting or hyper realistic way, rather in a more natural fashion.

To put things in perspective, I am not implying _major_ effects or tonal signature shifts in the music presentation, so I consider investing in high end power cables a bold move in the diminishing return territory in most cases. It may still be worth once you are perfecting your system, though, or if you just enjoy looking at those big snakes on the back of your rack


----------



## STR-1

Triode User said:


> I sometimes wonder if Dave had an external smps whether people would be swopping it out for a lps? And if smps is a limiting factor in people’s minds then how come the Dave is so all conquering in its performance? *The answer I guess is that its smps is not holding back the Dave performance.*


Your premise does not support this conclusion.  DAVE can be both all conquering and be held back from its full potential by its power supply (with its impact both on DAVE and on the rest of the system).  

I do know that some DAVE owners (tweaking enthusiasts) have replaced the installed power supply with a custom linear supply, no doubt voiding their warranty in the process.  I assume word spread on the grapevine that generally positive results were achieved in doing this.

There is always room for improvement with these products no matter how good they are.  I suspect Rob already has some ideas for further improving the power side of things in respect of a possible DAVE 2.


----------



## Triode User

STR-1 said:


> Your premise does not support this conclusion.  DAVE can be both all conquering and be held back from its full potential by its power supply (with its impact both on DAVE and on the rest of the system).
> 
> I do know that some DAVE owners (tweaking enthusiasts) have replaced the installed power supply with a custom linear supply, no doubt voiding their warranty in the process.  I assume word spread on the grapevine that generally positive results were achieved in doing this.
> 
> There is always room for improvement with these products no matter how good they are.  I suspect Rob already has some ideas for further improving the power side of things in respect of a possible DAVE 2.



Fairy snuff to much of what you say. 

In which case if as you surmise the Dave power supply is holding it back then it must indeed be an awesome machine.  

Until then I will just take it as it is because I’m not about to get my soldering iron out and do open heart surgery.


----------



## STR-1

Triode User said:


> I’m not about to get my soldering iron out and do open heart surgery.


Neither am I.  I’m quite content to leave it to those drawn to risky exploration to try to take things to the next level and possibly inform Rob Watts’ thinking.


----------



## Deano1974

Hi Guys 

So after all the absolute assertive answers from this forum that the upgrade from M Scaler with Qutest to M Scaler with Dave is a massive gain, I last week pulled the trigger and the Dave is imbound

I'm feeling like a kid awaiting Christmas morning 

Thank you all for your clarification and knowledges as always the help and advice within this forum is second to none

Cheers


----------



## odessamarin

@Deano1974
.. perfect. interesting if you will really need M Scalar after 
Dave is fantastic DAC! Listening right now...


----------



## Deano1974

Can't wait I'm so excited and jealous of all you owners that have it already lol

I'm not a headphone user so I will be using the Dave via a preamp to drive my mono blocks or will drive the amps direct from the Dave as I have heard the preamp on the Dave is exceptionally good

Looking forward to experiencing both options


----------



## odessamarin




----------



## Deano1974

odessamarin said:


>


Thank you, thank you!


----------



## odessamarin

... we wait for your impression feedback!


----------



## Deano1974 (May 19, 2019)

odessamarin said:


> ... we wait for your impression feedback!


Yes and yes, I will post as soon as she lands and definitely as soon as she is powered up and listened to for the first hour lol

I'm sure my response will be

What, OMG, LOL


----------



## Triode User

Deano1974 said:


> Can't wait I'm so excited and jealous of all you owners that have it already lol
> 
> I'm not a headphone user so I will be using the Dave via a preamp to drive my mono blocks or will drive the amps direct from the Dave as I have heard the preamp on the Dave is exceptionally good
> 
> Looking forward to experiencing both options



Try Dave solo into the monos and also try with a preamp. I very quickly ditched my preamp and use Dave for preamp duties except for when I had valve (tube) monos and then the preamp was my better option and not just for the character of the sound.


----------



## hifipassion

odessamarin said:


> @Deano1974
> .. perfect. interesting if you will really need M Scalar after
> Dave is fantastic DAC! Listening right now...



Sorry to intervene 
Are you listening to a Dave from a Raspberry PI ?


----------



## odessamarin (May 19, 2019)

hifipassion said:


> Sorry to intervene
> Are you listening to a Dave from a Raspberry PI ?



.. Allo DigiOne Signature - Raspberry PI - Volumio
https://www.allo.com/sparky/digione-signature-player.html
and it's sound good! very good 

Dave is right DAC and it's need right numbers (source) to covert..


----------



## Deano1974

Triode User said:


> Try Dave solo into the monos and also try with a preamp. I very quickly ditched my preamp and use Dave for preamp duties except for when I had valve (tube) monos and then the preamp was my better option and not just for the character of the sound.


So theres the quandary as I run tube valve mono blocks


----------



## Triode User

Deano1974 said:


> So theres the quandary as I run tube valve mono blocks



I have had three different makes of tube monoblocs and all were the same that they were better with Dave at DAC output voltage and using the preamp for volume. I tried active preamps and music first transformer volume controls with the same result. The Music First transformer volume control got the closest to not affecting the transparency of Dave. 

However with all solid state power amps I much prefer Dave direct.


----------



## ecwl

Deano1974 said:


> So theres the quandary as I run tube valve mono blocks


You really won’t know how compatible DAVE will be with your specific valve mono blocks until you get it. My gut feeling is that it’ll be fine. My dealer hooks DAVE up to all sort of amps and it always sounds great and shows off the amps.


----------



## Deano1974

ecwl said:


> You really won’t know how compatible DAVE will be with your specific valve mono blocks until you get it. My gut feeling is that it’ll be fine. My dealer hooks DAVE up to all sort of amps and it always sounds great and shows off the amps.


Agreed, the proof will be in the pudding as they say, im super excited


----------



## Deano1974

Triode User said:


> I have had three different makes of tube monoblocs and all were the same that they were better with Dave at DAC output voltage and using the preamp for volume. I tried active preamps and music first transformer volume controls with the same result. The Music First transformer volume control got the closest to not affecting the transparency of Dave.
> 
> However with all solid state power amps I much prefer Dave direct.


I run a LDR Passive pre amp which is extremely transparent, so it will be a matter of testing which will be easy enough to do, counting down the days woo hoo


----------



## musickid (May 20, 2019)

Can hugo2/mscaler owners be granted associate or junior membership of the dave owners club?? After all the h2/hms combo is reported to display more important musical qualities than a solo (but not) mscaled dave.


----------



## Triode User (May 21, 2019)

Deano1974 said:


> I run a LDR Passive pre amp which is extremely transparent, so it will be a matter of testing which will be easy enough to do, counting down the days woo hoo



The ldr passive may not achieve the same success as I have experienced with a Transformer Volume Control  or an active pre from Dave to tube power amps so it will be interesting to see how you get on. It is not the transparency of the pre which is the important thing here per se, I have concluded it is in the way the TVC and active pre can ‘drive’ the tube power amp in the same way that both of these types of pre are good for long runs of interconnect.

For instance I got a better quality of sound with say Dave at 0dB and the TVC at -35dB than I did with the Dave at -35dB and the TVC at 0dB.

Edit. Just to clarify, this is NOT a Chord DAC thing, I have noticed it with other DACs used going direct into tube power amps (but never into any solid state amps). Obviously the usual IMHO and YMMV apply.


----------



## Deano1974

Triode User said:


> The ldr passive may not achieve the same success as I have experienced with a Transformer Volume Control  or an active pre from Dave to tube power amps so it will be interesting to see how you get on. It is not the transparency of the pre which is the important thing here per se, I have concluded it is in the way the TVC and active pre can ‘drive’ the tube power amp in the same way that both of these types of pre are good for long runs of interconnect.
> 
> For instance I got a better quality of sound with say Dave at 0dB and the TVC at -35dB than I did with the Dave at -35dB and the TVC at 0dB.
> 
> Edit. Just to clarify, this is NOT a Chord DAC thing, I have noticed it with other DACs used going direct into tube power amps (but never into any solid state amps). Obviously the usual IMHO and YMMV apply.


Good to know the testing will reveal all


----------



## ubs28

The Chord Dave works only via Optical with 4K smart TV’s?


----------



## Thenewguy007

ubs28 said:


> The Chord Dave works only via Optical with 4K smart TV’s?



Unless you know any TV's that accept inputs other than Optical from a audio external source, then yes.


----------



## ubs28

Thenewguy007 said:


> Unless you know any TV's that accept inputs other than Optical from a external source, then yes.



Ok cool. I will buy a nice optical cable this weekend then. I think I will make my Samsung 4K TV as the main point for everything as it handles streaming flawlessly. Will be a cool setup for not just movies, but also for music


----------



## musickid

Will that be optical out from tv to dave?


----------



## ubs28

musickid said:


> Will that be optical out from tv to dave?



Yes indeed. So I will be able to stream from any device to the TV and then over optical to the Chord Dave. I know it sounds like a strange setup, but I think setup will be perfect for me.


----------



## musickid (May 22, 2019)

Good luck there!! But will you know the sample rate/bit depth and quality of the signal out of the tv? You wouldn't want mp3 compressed i'm sure.


----------



## riverred105

Dave vs Hugo tt2 plus mscalar. Which of these would be the more resolving, better dac?


----------



## MacedonianHero

riverred105 said:


> Dave vs Hugo tt2 plus mscalar. Which of these would be the more resolving, better dac?



DAVE plus Mscalar.


----------



## jscmd2000

riverred105 said:


> Dave vs Hugo tt2 plus mscalar. Which of these would be the more resolving, better dac?



Correct answer to your question will depend on the transducer at hand.  If you have something that can scale up and discern the difference, the Dave has the edge on computing power and detail retrieval.  Most will agree, however, that amplifiers in general have more profound effect on the ultimate sq than dacs do, so TT2+HMS seem to have the edge there.  In other words, spend equal or more on your amp than your dac.  

To answer this question, you need to either a/b test or listen to both for some time.  Personality matters also, I think.  If you know you have something not as good, obviously you will wonder about the better one... some people can settle and commit based on whatever reasoning, some people just gotta have the better one or can't get rid of the bug.

I remember this discussion a few months ago in this thread that you might be able to find.


----------



## Triode User

riverred105 said:


> Dave vs Hugo tt2 plus mscalar. Which of these would be the more resolving, better dac?



You have asked the same question in the MScaler thread and I have answered there.


----------



## delirium

Hi!! I was woundering...? How much does a uest dave go for? Thanks


----------



## miketlse

delirium said:


> Hi!! I was woundering...? How much does a uest dave go for? Thanks


Here are the details for one that sold on head-fi.


----------



## delirium

miketlse said:


> Here are the details for one that sold on head-fi.


Thanks


----------



## Jiffi32

Hi all

I know its been discussed before but i was after recommendations for long toslinks that work well with DAVE. I was intending to buy a 10m QED, but they have discontinued it in this length.
needs to be available in UK/Europe please


----------



## iDesign

Jiffi32 said:


> Hi all
> 
> I know its been discussed before but i was after recommendations for long toslinks that work well with DAVE. I was intending to buy a 10m QED, but they have discontinued it in this length.
> needs to be available in UK/Europe please


They are available from AudioQuest as an example.


----------



## musickid

https://www.amazon.co.uk/KabelDirekt-Optical-Digital-TOSLINK-Theater/dp/B00FQK3WEU


----------



## Deftone

Jiffi32 said:


> Hi all
> 
> I know its been discussed before but i was after recommendations for long toslinks that work well with DAVE. I was intending to buy a 10m QED, but they have discontinued it in this length.
> needs to be available in UK/Europe please



Amazon basics or Kabeldirekt are both under £20 for 10M


----------



## burbster

Hi, Now that the Etude has been out for a while, I was wondering whether anyone here has one, or demoed one with a Dave/HMS combo. I am trying to get hold of one to trial myself but interested to here opinions. A while ago on this forum, I think John Franks commented that it was the best amp to partner and show what the DAVE could do, sighting the fact that it was orders of magnitude 'faster' than other amps.


----------



## burbster

Jiffi32 said:


> Hi all
> 
> I know its been discussed before but i was after recommendations for long toslinks that work well with DAVE. I was intending to buy a 10m QED, but they have discontinued it in this length.
> needs to be available in UK/Europe please



From my experience, whilst I have noticed significant differences in SQ when trialling other digital cables such as Co-Ax and USB, fibre optic was the one medium where I could not tell the difference between the free plastic cable and a fairly expensive glass fibre cable. YMMV.


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## Triode User

burbster said:


> Hi, Now that the Etude has been out for a while, I was wondering whether anyone here has one, or demoed one with a Dave/HMS combo. I am trying to get hold of one to trial myself but interested to here opinions. A while ago on this forum, I think John Franks commented that it was the best amp to partner and show what the DAVE could do, sighting the fact that it was orders of magnitude 'faster' than other amps.



Sorry I cant help there as I have only heard it at shows but I would be very interested to know what you think when you do get to demo one.


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## ecwl

burbster said:


> Hi, Now that the Etude has been out for a while, I was wondering whether anyone here has one, or demoed one with a Dave/HMS combo. I am trying to get hold of one to trial myself but interested to here opinions. A while ago on this forum, I think John Franks commented that it was the best amp to partner and show what the DAVE could do, sighting the fact that it was orders of magnitude 'faster' than other amps.


I have commented on Chord Etude a few times in Head-Fi. I think my mind has changed slightly since I first got it in October 2018.
The first thing I would say is that I see you're using Chord integrated amplifier 2650. Hence, the sonic limitations would be as much due to the preamplifier section of the 2650 as the amplifier section. As a result, to get the most out of Etude, you really need to connect DAVE directly to Etude. Otherwise, you'll lose transparency. Obviously, if you have a vinyl setup, that would be a challenge.
The second thing I would say is that if you like Chord 2650, Chord Etude is probably the right upgrade for you. I think different amps sound different. Some amplifiers are built to sound neutral (Benchmark AHB2, Bryston 4B3, Chord amps) while others tend to sound warmer (maybe not as warm as tube amps) where they introduce euphonic 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortions but inevitably with tradeoffs to microdetails, microdynamics and transparency. For me, I never bought any older Chord amplifiers because at shows and showrooms, I have always found the older generation of Chord amplifiers to sound slightly harsh at times, despite their neutrality, transparency, microdynamics and macrodynamics. I have not been able to hear the Mk II versions of Chord amplifiers but am lucky to have the Chord Etude. I think my summary would be that Chord Etude preserves all the wonderful qualities of the older Chord amplifiers but there is a beauty and smoothness to the sound when it's meant to be warm and pleasing, meaning that the harshness I didn't like when I hear in the Mk I Chord amplifiers are gone. But when the music is meant to be harsh and dynamics, Etude can give you that power and oomph just like the older Chord amplifiers. Most importantly, I find the transparency, micro- and macrodynamics are still completely preserved with Chord Etude. I have to admit I have always found Chord amplifiers to be extremely fast so I really am not sure if Chord Etude is any "faster" than the Chord 2650. And I have not had any in-home demos of other neutral amplifiers so I cannot definitively say they can't be better than the Chord Etude but for me, the other amps often sound a little harsher than the Etude but I may be biased by the look of the Etude because it matches my DAVE and Blu2.
I think I would only have one caveat on you getting the Chord Etude, which is that when I used to drive my speakers with Sanders Magtech, I would recognize that when listening to DAVE with headphones, there is a difference in transparency, microdynamics, harshness but I just kind of accepted this as reality so over time, I was able to ignore the difference between speakers vs headphones. When I got the Chord Etude, the upgrade was so significant that I started believing that the Etude through my speakers are as transparent as DAVE to my headphones. Or at least the difference in transparency was very subtle. Unfortunately, over time, because Etude is so transparent, it actually becomes easier to hear the subtle differences between DAVE to headphones vs Etude to speakers. Yes, the sound is the closest as headphones as I can get so far (and based on other demo systems I've heard). So in many ways, I completely agree with John Franks that it is currently the best amp to partner with DAVE. But with Chord Hugo TT2 being able to put out 8-18W to speakers, I suspect in 3-5 years time, we may see the same technology developed to a point where the DX amps can drive 150W into speakers. When that happens, I guess I can upgrade my Etude then.


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## onlychild

ecwl said:


> I have commented on Chord Etude a few times in Head-Fi. I think my mind has changed slightly since I first got it in October 2018.
> The first thing I would say is that I see you're using Chord integrated amplifier 2650. Hence, the sonic limitations would be as much due to the preamplifier section of the 2650 as the amplifier section. As a result, to get the most out of Etude, you really need to connect DAVE directly to Etude. Otherwise, you'll lose transparency. Obviously, if you have a vinyl setup, that would be a challenge.
> The second thing I would say is that if you like Chord 2650, Chord Etude is probably the right upgrade for you. I think different amps sound different. Some amplifiers are built to sound neutral (Benchmark AHB2, Bryston 4B3, Chord amps) while others tend to sound warmer (maybe not as warm as tube amps) where they introduce euphonic 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortions but inevitably with tradeoffs to microdetails, microdynamics and transparency. For me, I never bought any older Chord amplifiers because at shows and showrooms, I have always found the older generation of Chord amplifiers to sound slightly harsh at times, despite their neutrality, transparency, microdynamics and macrodynamics. I have not been able to hear the Mk II versions of Chord amplifiers but am lucky to have the Chord Etude. I think my summary would be that Chord Etude preserves all the wonderful qualities of the older Chord amplifiers but there is a beauty and smoothness to the sound when it's meant to be warm and pleasing, meaning that the harshness I didn't like when I hear in the Mk I Chord amplifiers are gone. But when the music is meant to be harsh and dynamics, Etude can give you that power and oomph just like the older Chord amplifiers. Most importantly, I find the transparency, micro- and macrodynamics are still completely preserved with Chord Etude. I have to admit I have always found Chord amplifiers to be extremely fast so I really am not sure if Chord Etude is any "faster" than the Chord 2650. And I have not had any in-home demos of other neutral amplifiers so I cannot definitively say they can't be better than the Chord Etude but for me, the other amps often sound a little harsher than the Etude but I may be biased by the look of the Etude because it matches my DAVE and Blu2.
> I think I would only have one caveat on you getting the Chord Etude, which is that when I used to drive my speakers with Sanders Magtech, I would recognize that when listening to DAVE with headphones, there is a difference in transparency, microdynamics, harshness but I just kind of accepted this as reality so over time, I was able to ignore the difference between speakers vs headphones. When I got the Chord Etude, the upgrade was so significant that I started believing that the Etude through my speakers are as transparent as DAVE to my headphones. Or at least the difference in transparency was very subtle. Unfortunately, over time, because Etude is so transparent, it actually becomes easier to hear the subtle differences between DAVE to headphones vs Etude to speakers. Yes, the sound is the closest as headphones as I can get so far (and based on other demo systems I've heard). So in many ways, I completely agree with John Franks that it is currently the best amp to partner with DAVE. But with Chord Hugo TT2 being able to put out 8-18W to speakers, I suspect in 3-5 years time, we may see the same technology developed to a point where the DX amps can drive 150W into speakers. When that happens, I guess I can upgrade my Etude then.




Which headphones do you have Ecwl?  I’m considering the Etude for powering the Susvara.


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## ecwl

onlychild said:


> Which headphones do you have Ecwl?  I’m considering the Etude for powering the Susvara.


I use the Etude to power my Dynaudio Confidence C1 speakers. My best headphone is the Focal Utopia so DAVE can drive it quite easily.
Keep in mind too that Chord Etude has speaker output at the back so to drive Susvara, you would probably need special cables or adaptors to connect to the Susvara I presume.


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## musickid (May 31, 2019)

If i had to choose between adding a tt2 to my mscaler (and trading in my Hugo 2) vs trading my hugo2/mscaler against a solo dave which option should i go for? I would not really want to pay another 3K to add an mscaler to the dave. Either solution is end game for a long while. The opinions seem divided here and even Rob shows a preference to the tt2 / mscaler option because of the musicality that a solo dave cannot reproduce here? I have listened to both with the dave sounding lighter and more lifelike and the mscaled tt2 heavier/deeper sounding but very melodic and full sounding. Any perspectives appreciated. I'm looking to do one or the other in a couple of months from now once finances are settled. My description of the sound of a tt2/mscaled vs dave are very brief and simple here on purpose as my aim is to gain advice. Thanks to all.


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## ZappaMan

musickid said:


> If i had to choose between adding a tt2 to my mscaler (and trading in my Hugo 2) vs trading my hugo2/mscaler against a solo dave which option should i go for? I would not really want to pay another 3K to add an mscaler to the dave. Either solution is end game for a long while. The opinions seem divided here and even Rob shows a preference to the tt2 / mscaler option because of the musicality that a solo dave cannot reproduce here? I have listened to both with the dave sounding lighter and more lifelike and the mscaled tt2 heavier/deeper sounding but very melodic and full sounding. Any perspectives appreciated. I'm looking to do one or the other in a couple of months from now once finances are settled. My description of the sound of a tt2/mscaled vs dave are very brief and simple here on purpose as my aim is to gain advice. Thanks to all.


Probably either option will keep you going for a few years, if you can resist the need to upgrade.


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## ecwl

musickid said:


> If i had to choose between adding a tt2 to my mscaler (and trading in my Hugo 2) vs trading my hugo2/mscaler against a solo dave which option should i go for?


In my mind, this is a no brainer. I have never heard TT2 and I can confidently say you should go with TT2 for a couple of reasons:
1) Once you’re used to M-Scaler, it’s hard to go back to the 164,000 taps from DAVE. There is a musicality to the million taps that you don’t get elsewhere and since that’s what you’ve been listening to via Hugo 2 for a while, it’ll be difficult to go backwards to a lower tap length.
2) I’ve noticed at my Head-Fi meets that people eventually want to experiment with headphones that are harder to drive so TT2 would give you that option.
There are two caveats:
1) with the same kind of money, I would seriously look at getting a different headphones other than PM1. PM1 is great but there are better headphones to pair with Hugo 2 at a higher price point. In terms of bang for the buck, you’ll get more with headphones upgrade.
2) it is possible (some argue probable) that Chord might release a better headphone amp to pair with M-Scaler in the next 1-2 years (my guess). My gut feeling is that it would use DAVE DAC technology (20 elements) with TT2 power. So you might want to wait to see what the upcoming Chord product release schedule is.
Bottom line, if I were you, I’d take my Hugo 2, PM1 (and maybe M-Scaler) to various headphone shops to try out new headphones.


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## musickid

I will be getting sony mdr z1r to replace the oppo pm1. This after trying many headphones. Do you think the sony is a good match for mscaled tt2?

Finally your advice on the taps question is good as i never thought deeply about it from that perspective. I think mscaler is noticed most once you loose it from your chain if that makes sense. Also the mscaled tt2 route is a grand cheaper after trade in's which is alot of money for me. Unless the dave brigade can post another argument for........


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## miketlse

musickid said:


> I will be getting sony mdr z1r to replace the oppo pm1. This after trying many headphones. Do you think the sony is a good match for mscaled tt2?
> 
> Finally your advice on the taps question is good as i never thought deeply about it from that perspective. I think mscaler is noticed most once you loose it from your chain if that makes sense. Also the mscaled tt2 route is a grand cheaper after trade in's which is alot of money for me. Unless the dave brigade can post another argument for........


Do I remember right that you originally had PM3 with your Mojo? I was trying my aeon flow closed with my Mojo, and thinking that they seemed to have an enjoyable synergy, and reflecting that the PM3 used to be a popular choice as well.


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## musickid (May 31, 2019)

Hi mike. I was actually using pm1 with mojo with a chord electronics headphone adaptor from the accessories pack. I'm getting to the stage where i feel a headphone upgrade is due and the sony z1r both sounds, is built and is very comfortable with plush lambskin pads. I tried ether 2, empyrean and hd820 and none come close to sony's comfort. I seem to be inclined towards real leather pads and i feel i might be more sensitive than others when it comes to comfort as a factor when choosing quality headphones.


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## ecwl

miketlse said:


> Do I remember right that you originally had PM3 with your Mojo? I was trying my aeon flow closed with my Mojo, and thinking that they seemed to have an enjoyable synergy, and reflecting that the PM3 used to be a popular choice as well.


Yes. I upgraded to the Aeon Flow Closed to go with my Mojo for work from the PM3 because I want a pair of closed headphones for work. I think the Aeon Flow closed is better than PM3 and I prefer it to PM1 (which is also open anyway)


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## musickid (May 31, 2019)

I'm listening to the PM1 through my mscaled H2 now and the mids are stunning better than many hi end phones. The PM1 has been compared to LCD 3 and beyond. If this is the case what do folk here think about diverting all my finances towards a dave and trading in my h2/mscaler to finally just use my PM1 with the dave. It seems if you don't have the latest model it's not up to the latest trend. PM1/DAVE has had much praise as a combo. Even though all the other options equate either to more musicality or make more sense financially the idea of owning dave for the first time presents a real sense of excitement for me not found elsewhere.


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## ecwl

musickid said:


> I will be getting sony mdr z1r to replace the oppo pm1. This after trying many headphones. Do you think the sony is a good match for mscaled tt2?
> 
> Finally your advice on the taps question is good as i never thought deeply about it from that perspective. I think mscaler is noticed most once you loose it from your chain if that makes sense. Also the mscaled tt2 route is a grand cheaper after trade in's which is alot of money for me. Unless the dave brigade can post another argument for........


I have to admit, I really, really don't like the Sony Z1R because I found the frequency response very odd. Now, different people like different headphones and speakers so if you're 100% sure that's your upgrade path, then Z1R is right for you. But my main caveat is that just be sure you've listened to a lot of different musical materials on the Z1R (instead of just a few select tracks) because headphones with interesting frequency response might sound good with some music but not with others.
I think Z1R is very easy to drive (I drove it with my Mojo at our Head-Fi meet where only 1 out of 10 people liked the Z1R driven by various amps). So it doesn't matter whether you have Hugo 2 or TT2 or DAVE, You'll be able to drive it fine. For someone who likes PM1 but not Audeze LCD3 and you dislike the comfort level of Ether 2, HD820 or Empyrean, I would suggest considering trying Focal Utopia, Stellia or Clear.
Another issue is that if going M-Scaler + TT2 is already a lot of money, personally, I would not upgrade if I were in your shoes. I would probably keep on listening to various headphones until I find a new comfortable one that is truly sonically an upgrade to your PM1 before upgrading. While I do think M-Scaler + DAVE or DAVE alone is better than say Hugo 2 (since I've actually listened to these setups, rather than M-Scaler + Hugo 2), I do think it's not something that's likely worthwhile for most people given the financial stretch. And I waited about 5 years before I finally upgraded my HD650 to Focal Utopia and I waited 5 years to go from HD280Pro to PM3 and another 3 years before I upgraded to Aeon Flow Closed. I have a small head so it's hard to find headphones that fit comfortably. And there are many headphones that just have slightly different sound but are not a true dramatic improvement. I'm lucky that these upgrades are no longer a financial stretch like they used to be 10 years ago. But essentially, I still wait for the next product that I believe are truly special and fit my needs and finances before upgrading.
With all that said, sometimes, just do what feels right. Whatever upgrades you choose, you'll be happy with.


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## burbster

ecwl said:


> I have commented on Chord Etude a few times in Head-Fi. I think my mind has changed slightly since I first got it in October 2018.
> The first thing I would say is that I see you're using Chord integrated amplifier 2650. Hence, the sonic limitations would be as much due to the preamplifier section of the 2650 as the amplifier section. As a result, to get the most out of Etude, you really need to connect DAVE directly to Etude. Otherwise, you'll lose transparency. Obviously, if you have a vinyl setup, that would be a challenge.
> The second thing I would say is that if you like Chord 2650, Chord Etude is probably the right upgrade for you. I think different amps sound different. Some amplifiers are built to sound neutral (Benchmark AHB2, Bryston 4B3, Chord amps) while others tend to sound warmer (maybe not as warm as tube amps) where they introduce euphonic 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortions but inevitably with tradeoffs to microdetails, microdynamics and transparency. For me, I never bought any older Chord amplifiers because at shows and showrooms, I have always found the older generation of Chord amplifiers to sound slightly harsh at times, despite their neutrality, transparency, microdynamics and macrodynamics. I have not been able to hear the Mk II versions of Chord amplifiers but am lucky to have the Chord Etude. I think my summary would be that Chord Etude preserves all the wonderful qualities of the older Chord amplifiers but there is a beauty and smoothness to the sound when it's meant to be warm and pleasing, meaning that the harshness I didn't like when I hear in the Mk I Chord amplifiers are gone. But when the music is meant to be harsh and dynamics, Etude can give you that power and oomph just like the older Chord amplifiers. Most importantly, I find the transparency, micro- and macrodynamics are still completely preserved with Chord Etude. I have to admit I have always found Chord amplifiers to be extremely fast so I really am not sure if Chord Etude is any "faster" than the Chord 2650. And I have not had any in-home demos of other neutral amplifiers so I cannot definitively say they can't be better than the Chord Etude but for me, the other amps often sound a little harsher than the Etude but I may be biased by the look of the Etude because it matches my DAVE and Blu2.
> I think I would only have one caveat on you getting the Chord Etude, which is that when I used to drive my speakers with Sanders Magtech, I would recognize that when listening to DAVE with headphones, there is a difference in transparency, microdynamics, harshness but I just kind of accepted this as reality so over time, I was able to ignore the difference between speakers vs headphones. When I got the Chord Etude, the upgrade was so significant that I started believing that the Etude through my speakers are as transparent as DAVE to my headphones. Or at least the difference in transparency was very subtle. Unfortunately, over time, because Etude is so transparent, it actually becomes easier to hear the subtle differences between DAVE to headphones vs Etude to speakers. Yes, the sound is the closest as headphones as I can get so far (and based on other demo systems I've heard). So in many ways, I completely agree with John Franks that it is currently the best amp to partner with DAVE. But with Chord Hugo TT2 being able to put out 8-18W to speakers, I suspect in 3-5 years time, we may see the same technology developed to a point where the DX amps can drive 150W into speakers. When that happens, I guess I can upgrade my Etude then.



Thank you for your detailed and insightful response.
Called in to local shop, still no etude but I now have a spm1200 on home demo driven straight from Dave. Sounding nice!


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## Triode User

burbster said:


> Thank you for your detailed and insightful response.
> Called in to local shop, still no etude but I now have a spm1200 on home demo driven straight from Dave. Sounding nice!



I tried an SPM 1200 Mk2 for a couple of weeks but eventually bought a Pass Labs XA30.8 having compared them back to back in my system connected direct to Dave and driving Spendor SP200 speakers. The SPM 1200 is a fine amp but it all comes down to personal preference at that level.


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## musickid (Jun 2, 2019)

Thankyou ecwl excellent advice there. I keep remembering how Rob favours mscaling musicality if the other option was dave's transparency. Mscaled with TT2 here. However my dealer has offered me in addition to my h2/hms traded in just £3200 for a dave yes £3200! In this scenario i would be using my PM1 with the dave as i could not afford to upgrade cans or add an mscaler. Interestingly on the TT thread the argument concerning 1st gen chord sound (natural,warm,organic?) vs chord gen 2 sound hugo 2 with mscaler and so on is looming and adding another dimension to my quandary. In addition Ray prefers an mscaled h2 as does Romaz vs a solo dave. I have a few weeks before i do the deal and if i go for a dave i will be using it with my PM1 and maybe next year afford an mscaler//new cans. To be honest i've tried focal headphones and find the headband very rigid.

The sound quality of the PM1 is very close to 2-3K headphones and i wonder if it were released today if it would be all the rave. £3K for a dave is compelling but is this the right step forwards? Time will tell. Thanks to all as i've been trying to get multi-perspectives today which i will then analyse later. I have heard Dvorak's slavonic dances from a solo dave with my PM1 at Sonority Design in the West Midlands and was totally gripped. Listening to Carly Simon with the same set up i can hear a warmer more organic presentation in line with the "chord gen 1" sound found in mojo-hugo-TT. Is it accurate to even define a chord gen1 vs 2 sound as is being discussed on the TT thread?? Dave is firmly generation 2 i now know.


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## ecwl

burbster said:


> Thank you for your detailed and insightful response.
> Called in to local shop, still no etude but I now have a spm1200 on home demo driven straight from Dave. Sounding nice!


Like @Triode User, I would caution you on getting SPM1200 (Mk I or Mk II). I think it is probably better in the UK or Wales but I've found in Canada (and maybe the US too), some Chord dealers tend to stock older generations of Chord amps that they need to move. As a result, they rarely agree to bring in new amps unless you're reasonably committed to buying. Personally, I think if you're happy with SPM1200 and you're ready to pay Etude prices, you can probably just order Etude and the dealer can take care of it for you. If you're not committed, you should insist on your dealer bringing in a demo as I think Chord in general is fairly accommodating. If not, you can probably PM John Franks about this to get a demo for your dealer.
I do think Pass Labs XA30.8 has a different sound than Chord amps (from dealer demo I've listened to in a different setup) and I definitely would not choose SPM1200 Mk I over XA30.8 and I suspect I also would not choose SPM1200 Mk II over XA30.8 either. But I suspect (without having done A/B testing), I would choose Etude over XA30.8 but I would totally understand if some people would prefer XA30.8 over Etude.


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## ecwl

musickid said:


> Listening to Carly Simon with the same set up i can hear a warmer more organic presentation in line with the "chord gen 1" sound found in mojo-hugo-TT-Dave. Is it accurate to even define a chord gen1 vs 2 sound as is being discussed on the TT thread??


Hmmm... I agree there are two generation of sounds from Chord DACs but this is how I would classify them (in order of sonic quality):
Gen 1: Mojo, 2Qute, Hugo, Hugo TT,
Gen 2: Hugo 2, Qutest, Hugo TT2, DAVE
Blu2/M-Scaler is a totally game-changer that has less to do with the DAC technology itself and more to do with tap length and upsampling.
That's why I would never compare your Hugo 2 sound to the true Gen 1 sound.
However, the more gripping sound from DAVE is due to the 20-element pulse array (vs Hugo 2 and TT2's 10-element pulse array), higher order noise shaper and improved power supply. From all the Head-Fi posts on TT2 I've skimmed through, many have said that TT2 is a huge upgrade from Hugo 2 because of the improved power supply and higher order noise shaper. Obviously DAVE would even be better but I know 100% if I were in your shoes, and I've decided to upgrade to either M-Scaler+TT2 vs DAVE right now, I'd choose M-Scaler+TT2 and just choose to never listen to DAVE again.
That said, my decision is based on my biases and my experiences with Mojo, 2Qute, DAVE and Blu2/M-scaler (and dealer demos in the past with TT, Hugo, Hugo 2, Qutest).
I totally get that your preferences would be different. And like I said earlier, whatever you decide in the end, I think you'll be super happy with it.


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## musickid

Many thanks ecwl. Not listening to dave again has the opposite effect if you understand!! Do you know why a 20 element pulse array had me totally absorbed? Ignoring the improved noise shaper and power supply in dave so what does a 20 element pulse array do that a 10 element does not in terms of listening?


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## simorag (May 31, 2019)

*Re: DAVE crossfeed magic*

This is old news, I know, but I could not resist reporting about this once again.

After listening to some binaural recordings, hence switching back to the crossfeed = 0, I wanted to please myself with the good old Beethoven 9th tonight (Tilson Thomas, SFS), in this outstanding recording, but I felt I was not enjoying it as much as I remembered.






Then, clicking back to crossfeed = 3, i.e. my usual setting since I only listen through headphones, BANG here I am in the music hall again!

The depth, naturalness, immersivity of the sound experience is really .. magical for a headphone (credit to be given to the AB-1266 TC as well, of course).
A slightly warmer / darker sound signature, at no expense of transparency and detail, is another welcome side-effect to my ears.

I believe crossfeed implementation is a strong asset of Chord DACs, and DAVE in particular, for headphones users


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## ecwl

musickid said:


> Many thanks ecwl. Not listening to dave again has the opposite effect if you understand!! Do you know why a 20 element pulse array had me totally absorbed? Ignoring the improved noise shaper and power supply in dave so what does a 20 element pulse array do that a 10 element does not in terms of listening?


Now I get what you’re saying. All the improvements are similar, more elements, better noise shaper and better power supply just all lead to lower noise and better transparency, better micro dynamics and better details which does translate somewhat to more accurate timbre, and definitely better depth perception. 

The real problem is when you have DAVE, you’ll want M-Scaler and DAVE. I am reasonably confident of that, now I have a better appreciation from your perspective. This is why the top of the line setup is not M-scaler+TT2 or DAVE, it’s M-Scaler+DAVE. So you might as well save up until you can sell the Hugo 2 and buy DAVE.


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## musickid (May 31, 2019)

The jump from h2 to dave is 6700 sterling. Too much at one go. Listening to Le Concert by Armand Amar.


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## Triode User

musickid said:


> The jump from h2 to dave is 6700 sterling. Too much at one go. Listening to Le Concert by Armand Amar.



Or keep an eye open for a second hand Dave. The last one I saw went for about 5500 on UK ebay and H2 typically sell for 1200 on UK ebay so the upgrade by that route is 4300 sterling . . . .


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## Rob Watts (Jun 1, 2019)

simorag said:


> *Re: DAVE crossfeed magic*
> 
> This is old news, I know, but I could not resist reporting about this once again.
> 
> ...



Yes agreed; crossfeed on HP with Dave/Hugo2/Hugo TT2 makes a big difference to depth perception. Oddly, it didn't happen with Hugo, and is due to Dave's small signal resolution - principally the 350dB capable noise shaping. Funnily enough on my flight up too Edinburgh on Thursday, I had Hugo 2 set to crossfeed off for the first 5 minutes - thought it sounded flat - turned on to crossfeed 3 (blue) and the soundstage opened up dramatically.

I see the discussion about gen 1 and gen 2 designs. Note Dave is firmly and absolutely gen 2; it took 2 to 3 years to develop (working most of my time solely on Dave) and the DACs following Dave all use Dave's topology and use Dave's code too for the core audio path.


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## burbster

Triode User said:


> I tried an SPM 1200 Mk2 for a couple of weeks but eventually bought a Pass Labs XA30.8 having compared them back to back in my system connected direct to Dave and driving Spendor SP200 speakers. The SPM 1200 is a fine amp but it all comes down to personal preference at that level.



I had not considered the pass labs at all, certainly something to consider, although on paper it looks a little low on power for my set up?
Putting subjective opinions  aside I am noticing a lot more detail being retrieved with the 1200 straight from Dave. I suspect, as someone earlier suggested, this could be down to the change in pre amp more than the power amp. 

I’m also going to demo a gamut d200i as well, although it’s a 3 hour drive to hear it!


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## Triode User

@musickid you might find this part of the very recent AudioBacon review of the Mscaler interesting for your deliberations. In the link below he considers the TT2 + Mscaler up against solo Dave.

https://audiobacon.net/2019/05/31/chord-electronics-hugo-m-scaler-review-digital-disruption/5/

PS, I like the part where he goes on to compare both DACs with the Mscaler :

*"Hugo TT 2 vs. DAVE (both with Hugo M Scaler)*
So what is the performance gap when both DACs are using the Hugo M Scaler? *Huge.* The DAVE was already great. The Hugo M Scaler *activates GOD mode*."


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## ubs28

I got the Samsung 4K TV working as a streamer for the Chord Dave. Works pretty good. The bad news is, looks like I might have to upgrade my speakers now to do the Chord Dave justice.


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## odessamarin (Jun 1, 2019)

Rob Watts said:


> I see the discussion about gen 1 and gen 2 designs. Note Dave is firmly and absolutely gen 2; it took 2 to 3 years to develop (working most of my time solely on Dave) and the DACs following Dave all use Dave's topology and use Dave's code too for the core audio path.



My point regarding two generations was not about technical designs. Thank you Rob for mention..
But I was more about sound character. Somehow Dave sound to me closer to 1st generations... more natural and less "commercial" i would say. It gives accents to different instruments. While Outest and Hugo2 gave me impression of more mainstream sound. Which many ppl will appreatiate i guess. It givese you (normalize) all instruments to the same level somehow.. you hear all at once at your face.. very clean and nice tembret but ALL together loud. After a while I started to feel tired of it, after great WOW effects. Most probably my personal perception. Switching back to TT.. music just breath back to me.  Therefore to have more I went for DAVE, and so happy I did right.. for me it brings all what loved in TT to the extreme top level. It at the same time sound analogical, but extremely clean and natural. You are really did excellent DAC - DAVE. Thank you.


----------



## ecwl

burbster said:


> I’m also going to demo a gamut d200i as well, although it’s a 3 hour drive to hear it!


Haha. I drove 8 hours to visit my friends in Minneapolis. During my down time, one of the stereo stores has a Gamut d200i which they were very proud of and considered to be their flagship demo. For me, I found it a bit mushy sounding. Just not my kind of sound. Maybe it’s what they were playing at the time and their source.
As for DAVE to SPM1200, since you never said it’s SPM 1200 Mk II, I’ll assume it’s SPM 1200 Mk I. So my guess is 85% of improvements you heard came from bypassing the preamp and 15% came from SPM 1200 Mk I. If you’re listening to Mk II, my guess is 70% of the improvements came from bypassing your old preamp and 30% the amp. My dealer has put DAVE (no M-Scaler) directly to some pretty cheap amplifiers and speakers and they sound amazing. Haha, he sold tons of speakers and amplifiers that way because a lot of customers didn’t think that DACs matter. Although last time I dropped by, one of his customers clued into this... smart guy.


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## iDesign (Jun 1, 2019)

Rob Watts said:


> Yes agreed; crossfeed on HP with Dave/Hugo2/Hugo TT2 makes a big difference to depth perception. Oddly, it didn't happen with Hugo, and is due to Dave's small signal resolution - principally the 350dB capable noise shaping. Funnily enough on my flight up too Edinburgh on Thursday, I had Hugo 2 set to crossfeed off for the first 5 minutes - thought it sounded flat - turned on to crossfeed 3 (blue) and the soundstage opened up dramatically.
> 
> I see the discussion about gen 1 and gen 2 designs. Note Dave is firmly and absolutely gen 2; it took 2 to 3 years to develop (working most of my time solely on Dave) and the DACs following Dave all use Dave's topology and use Dave's code too for the core audio path.


@Rob Watts what are your current recommendations for settings when using the DAVE and Blu MkII in headphone mode? Do you still advise:

*HF Filter:* (ON)
*Phase Pos or Neg: *(Pos ON)   
*DSD+ Mode:* (OFF)
*PCM+ Mode:* (PCM+ ON)
*Dual Data Mode:* (ON)
*Crossfeed Modes 0, 1, 2, and 3:* (Mode 3 ON)

As an aside, I feel having the HF Filter ON yields a stunning difference and I much prefer it to be activated.


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## burbster

ecwl said:


> Haha. I drove 8 hours to visit my friends in Minneapolis. During my down time, one of the stereo stores has a Gamut d200i which they were very proud of and considered to be their flagship demo. For me, I found it a bit mushy sounding. Just not my kind of sound. Maybe it’s what they were playing at the time and their source.
> As for DAVE to SPM1200, since you never said it’s SPM 1200 Mk II, I’ll assume it’s SPM 1200 Mk I. So my guess is 85% of improvements you heard came from bypassing the preamp and 15% came from SPM 1200 Mk I. If you’re listening to Mk II, my guess is 70% of the improvements came from bypassing your old preamp and 30% the amp. My dealer has put DAVE (no M-Scaler) directly to some pretty cheap amplifiers and speakers and they sound amazing. Haha, he sold tons of speakers and amplifiers that way because a lot of customers didn’t think that DACs matter. Although last time I dropped by, one of his customers clued into this... smart guy.



Interesting to here your take on the gamut. Apologies it actually is the mk2 that I am demoing. I like it, I’m not sure I love it enough to stump up the money they want for it though, especially considering an ‘etuded’ 1200 mk3 probably won’t be too long away.


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## musickid (Jun 2, 2019)

I had initially thought that dave was a generation 1 chord dac as it came onto the market 3-4 years ago. I now realise i was totally wrong and it's amazing to know up to 3 years of work went into producing it. So dave is firmly a generation 2 chord dac to clarify that important point.


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## musickid

Thanks for the link Triode......will undoubtedly help me make that final decision.


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## musickid (Jun 2, 2019)




----------



## Saleh84

I'm not a chord dac owner, but I do love the chord DAVE sound - its truly special and in a class of its own. also, i have heard it with Mscaler, mind blowing combination. it is addictive to say the least.

what has been stopping me so far, is how its this phenomenal sound has been "bottled"!!
I have an Aurender N10 server, I'm connecting it via a reference, excellent sounding (also very expensive) AES cable to my NOS R2R dac. 
Rob Watts unfortunately doesn't believe in AES, even that when applied properly it sounds much better than USB, optical or Coax in my opinion. dCS and many great audio companies believe in this connection, but that's another topic for discussion. now, If i'm to buy a DAVE and an Mscaler, I have to rethink cabling (3 decent BNCs!) which is not fun. 

my dream cord dac will be a DAVE caliber dac with Mscaler built in. XLR outs are equally good to RCA outs even if its single ended. no headphone amp or pre. don't mind if its bigger/heavier chassis, in fact that would be nice. maybe more space for nicely placed more input connections - dual AES, Dual BNC, i2s inputs, etc. 
such a dac will feel in place when used with a high end speaker setup in a rack, and equally good with a headphone setup.  honestly speaking, I don't think someone who has invested that much in a dave has bought it for its headphone amp section but will most probably use it with a separate amplifier. I think the qutest was a great product in its level and a step in the right direction. Rob, please give us a reference top tier "dac" only! I'm sure many people out there share this wish. I'm certain it would sell well even if its price is greater than dave and Mscaler combined. it would be the perfect package!


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## x RELIC x

Saleh84 said:


> I'm not a chord dac owner, but I do love the chord DAVE sound - its truly special and in a class of its own. also, i have heard it with Mscaler, mind blowing combination. it is addictive to say the least.
> 
> what has been stopping me so far, is how its this phenomenal sound has been "bottled"!!
> I have an Aurender N10 server, I'm connecting it via a reference, excellent sounding (also very expensive) AES cable to my NOS R2R dac.
> ...



You are assuming the DAVE has a separate ‘amp section’. In fact the DAVE’s analogue output is already akin to other DAC’s line-out. The analogue out of the DAVE’s DAC combines the critical I/V conversion with the buffer, filter, and gain stage in to one analogue output stage, made possible due to Rob’s discrete Pulse Array DAC. This is not possible with other DACs (traditional DS or R2R). This eliminates a lot of analogue components in the signal path and measurably produces a transparently superior signal compared to traditional amps. Amp-mode and Preamp-mode are just presets and the volume is controlled digitally.

To re-iterate, you can’t get rid of the ‘amp section’ in the DAVE because then you couldn’t output any analogue signal from the DAC. Many people out there just don’t get what Rob has done with his designs overall. I don’t think he could have designed a simpler DAC that just happens to be able to drive headphones without the need for extra analogue bloat in the signal path. That’s the whole point of his designs and precisely why I bought a DAVE.

As for combining the Mscaler within the DAC chassis he has explained many times why this is currently not possible. For the future, who knows.


----------



## Saleh84

x RELIC x said:


> You are assuming the DAVE has a separate ‘amp section’. In fact the DAVE’s analogue output is already akin to other DAC’s line-out. The analogue out of the DAVE’s DAC combines the critical I/V conversion with the buffer, filter, and gain stage in to one analogue output stage, made possible due to Rob’s discrete Pulse Array DAC. This is not possible with other DACs (traditional DS or R2R). This eliminates a lot of analogue components in the signal path and measurably produces a transparently superior signal compared to traditional amps. Amp-mode and Preamp-mode are just presets and the volume is controlled digitally.
> 
> To re-iterate, you can’t get rid of the ‘amp section’ in the DAVE because then you couldn’t output any analogue signal from the DAC. Many people out there just don’t get what Rob has done with his designs overall. I don’t think he could have designed a simpler DAC that just happens to be able to drive headphones without the need for extra analogue bloat in the signal path. That’s the whole point of his designs and precisely why I bought a DAVE.
> 
> As for combining the Mscaler within the DAC chassis he has explained many times why this is currently not possible. For the future, who knows.



well I didn't know that, thank you - I have certainly learned something interesting from your reply. 

to be honest, I don't mind the headphone amp/volume control for it, I could use that with my HD800 when I'm unable to use the speakers, even with the dac being placed in my speaker setup rack, I can just switch speakers amplifier off or mute it. that suggestion of no pre/head amp was just cause I thought they are consuming space/power which could be allocated for the more interesting Mscaler. also, this got me thinking about chord qutest, which is cheaper than hugo2 and considered somehow 'same dac but without headphone out & battery', is it just a matter of adding a headphone jack and its connection plus some sort of a volume control knob?

I have read somewhere that the Mscaler processor chip consumes a lot of power and generates a lot of heat, but I don't see a real difficulty in selecting a larger power supply that can cover the needs of both devices or even two separate power supplies inside a single, probably bigger and well vented chassis. I think its more of 'does chord want to do this or not', kind of situation. fingers crossed that do that with the next gen Dave or whatever its going to be called  I'm fully convinced about Dave + mscaler sound, I want it so badly, its just I (and maybe others) need a  different package that suits every case of use with different transport/server connections, in my case particularly a very good AES audio out and a reference cable that i want to take advantage of so I could make the move to chord camp.


----------



## x RELIC x

Saleh84 said:


> well I didn't know that, thank you - I have certainly learned something interesting from your reply.
> 
> to be honest, I don't mind the headphone amp/volume control for it, I could use that with my HD800 when I'm unable to use the speakers, even with the dac being placed in my speaker setup rack, I can just switch speakers amplifier off or mute it. that suggestion of no pre/head amp was just cause I thought they are consuming space/power which could be allocated for the more interesting Mscaler. also, this got me thinking about chord qutest, which is cheaper than hugo2 and considered somehow 'same dac but without headphone out & battery', is it just a matter of adding a headphone jack and its connection plus some sort of a volume control knob?
> 
> I have read somewhere that the Mscaler processor chip consumes a lot of power and generates a lot of heat, but I don't see a real difficulty in selecting a larger power supply that can cover the needs of both devices or even two separate power supplies inside a single, probably bigger and well vented chassis. I think its more of 'does chord want to do this or not', kind of situation. fingers crossed that do that with the next gen Dave or whatever its going to be called  I'm fully convinced about Dave + mscaler sound, I want it so badly, its just I (and maybe others) need a  different package that suits every case of use with different transport/server connections, in my case particularly a very good AES audio out and a reference cable that i want to take advantage of so I could make the move to chord camp.



Ironically the Qutest output stage is based off of the Mojo. I think the extra analogue noise shapers in the Hugo2 output are part of the biggest difference between the Hugo2 and the Qutest, but I can’t say that for sure given I didn’t design them. On the Hugo2 the RCA and headphone out are the same signal path so I _suspect_ the Qutest just doesn’t have a headphone out given it’s category in the Chord lineup.

I want an Mscaler as well, but haven’t found the will to prioritize it yet given other personal commitments.


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## Triode User

Saleh84 said:


> I have read somewhere that the Mscaler processor chip consumes a lot of power



Just on this, what you will have read is that it consumes 10amps. However this is at 1volt so that equals a power consumption of 10watts. ie hardly anything.


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## MeetYourMaker (Jun 9, 2019)

Has anyone compared Chord mDave against Aqua Formula xHD?


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## townes

Reading the Dave user manual, I understand that Dave has two analogue outputs (XLR, RCA), which are both active at the same time.
Can the volume be adjusted independently for each of these? If yes, would this be possible:
- setting the attenuation for balanced output to fixed level (0 dB)
- setting the RCA output to variable level and using the remote control for adjustment?


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## Triode User

townes said:


> Reading the Dave user manual, I understand that Dave has two analogue outputs (XLR, RCA), which are both active at the same time.
> Can the volume be adjusted independently for each of these? If yes, would this be possible:
> - setting the attenuation for balanced output to fixed level (0 dB)
> - setting the RCA output to variable level and using the remote control for adjustment?



Sorry but the answer to all your questions is 'no'.


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## townes

Anyway, thank you very much for your answer. That's appreciated.


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## ubs28

Probably it has been discussed before, but what is your guys opinion about optical vs USB audio? So far, the optical connection is not the same as my UBS optimized signal path from my computer. But perhaps it is because I am using a cheap optical cable (and maybe a better optical cable will improve results?).

Also I assume the Chord Dave doesn’t support HMDI ARC for audio?


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## Deano1974

After 4 weeks of waiting, My christmas morning finally arrived and after only 1hr with Dave & HMS all I can say is wow wow wow the difference between Qutest and Dave with M Scaler is huge

Thanks to everyone for their advice on the upgrade

Cheers

Deano


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## Deftone

Congrats man, dave looks awesome in black.


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## musickid

Congratulations Deano! Are you using headphones or speakers?


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## Deano1974

Deftone said:


> Congrats man, dave looks awesome in black.


Thank you


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## Deano1974

musickid said:


> Congratulations Deano! Are you using headphones or speakers?


Hey Musickid thank you! 

I'm using speakers, Klipsch La Scala II's and Primaluna Dialogue HP monoblocks


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## Deano1974

A quick question over on audio bacon, Jay said that he prefers bnc input 3&4 into the Dave rathan than using bnc input 1&2 has anyone here heard any difference

Your thoughts? 

Cheers

Dean


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## iDesign (Jun 21, 2019)

Deano1974 said:


> A quick question over on audio bacon, Jay said that he prefers bnc input 3&4 into the Dave rathan than using bnc input 1&2 has anyone here heard any difference
> 
> Your thoughts?
> 
> ...


There is no audible difference. For some DAVE owners there were dropouts using the M Scaler and the solution was to use BNC 3+4 instead. Beyond that, any claimed differences in sound are baseless nonsense.


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## Triode User

iDesign said:


> There is no audible difference. For some DAVE owners there were dropouts using the M Scaler and the solution was to use BNC 3+4 instead. Beyond that, any claimed differences in sound are baseless nonsense.



Well it is not quite baseless nonsense because BNC inputs 3 and 4 are further away from the Dave analogue outputs so the logic is that any RF noise piggy backing on the BNC cables is nearer to a route into the analogue side of Dave if BNC inputs 1 and 2 are used.


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## Deano1974

iDesign said:


> There is no audible difference. For some DAVE owners there were dropouts using the M Scaler and the solution was to use BNC 3+4 instead. Beyond that, any claimed differences in sound are baseless nonsense.


Thank you, I couldn't hear any difference also


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## Deano1974

Triode User said:


> Well it is not quite baseless nonsense because BNC inputs 3 and 4 are further away from the Dave analogue outputs so the logic is that any RF noise piggy backing on the BNC cables is nearer to a route into the analogue side of Dave if BNC inputs 1 and 2 are used.


Interesting


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## iDesign (Jun 22, 2019)

Triode User said:


> Well it is not quite baseless nonsense because BNC inputs 3 and 4 are further away from the Dave analogue outputs so the logic is that any RF noise piggy backing on the BNC cables is nearer to a route into the analogue side of Dave if BNC inputs 1 and 2 are used.


That’s not logic, it’s unfounded speculation that isn’t backed up and belongs in the audio science forum. It’s unfortunate that so many posts here are devoted to RF and to the extent they unfairly devalue the DAVE and have alienated so many contributors from this thread.


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## Triode User

iDesign said:


> That’s not logic, it’s unfounded speculation that isn’t backed up and belongs in the audio science forum. It’s unfortunate that so many posts here are devoted to RF and to the extent they unfairly devalue the DAVE and have alienated so many contributors to this thread.



I am not saying that there are any differences in using the different pairs of the BNC inputs on Dave but I fear you are putting your head in the sand by pretending that there are not incremental improvements to be had by considering RF noise. Rob Watts himself is an advocate of reducing RF noise in the system. If you consider that his comments are based on unfounded speculation then so be it. Are you going to tell him or shall I?


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## thomaskong78

Rob Watts said:


> I am not listening....
> 
> Actually, production Dave now has short circuit protection resistors installed on the balanced XLR, so it absolutely won't drive headphones! It didn't have the current drive either for headphones too.
> 
> ...


I had been using Dave and Mscaler with headphones for 3 weeks.

As you recommended, I had tried cross feed 3.

Wow what a difference!

Now I will keep using it.

Thomas


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## burbster

Quick question for the forum, I am hoping to tap into your collective intelligence!!!

I have a developed a ground loop hiss in my system which i have traced to my Dave. As soon as I connect the earth on the Dave the hum appears. The strange thing though, and what I wanted.opinions on, is when i use the xlr outputs there is no hum, as soon as i use the RCA the hum appears, on both left and right. It's not the cable as i have changed that. I am assuming an xlr cable does not connect Dave and amps chassis together? Any ideas how to get rid of this, is it a case of returning Dave for repair ? I could just use xlr but worrying I am just masking the problem.


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## ecwl

burbster said:


> Quick question for the forum, I am hoping to tap into your collective intelligence!!!
> 
> I have a developed a ground loop hiss in my system which i have traced to my Dave. As soon as I connect the earth on the Dave the hum appears. The strange thing though, and what I wanted.opinions on, is when i use the xlr outputs there is no hum, as soon as i use the RCA the hum appears, on both left and right. It's not the cable as i have changed that. I am assuming an xlr cable does not connect Dave and amps chassis together? Any ideas how to get rid of this, is it a case of returning Dave for repair ? I could just use xlr but worrying I am just masking the problem.



I have to admit I'm personally suspicious that the ground loop is not coming from DAVE as it is much more likely to be related to Aries or M-Scaler. And if you have a powered USB drive plugged into the Aries, it could be from that USB drive.

First, I presume Aries, DAVE and M-Scaler and amplifiers are all plugged into your AQ Niagara. Because if one of these devices are not on the same power bar, you're already introducing a longer and potentially more problematic ground loop.

The first thing I would suggest to confirm this is to unplug the M-Scaler and all extraneous cables (anything from M-scaler power and M-scaler to Aires and to DAVE). This is because even if a device is off, the loop can still be present sometimes. I would connect the Aries via Toslink to DAVE and then DAVE via RCA to your amp and see if you still hear the hum. If you don't, the hum is not from DAVE. Then I would connect Aries to DAVE via USB. If you hear the hum, then the ground issue is coming from Aries so you need to ground Aries. If you still don't hear the hum, I would connect Aries to M-Scaler via Toslink and M-Scaler to DAVE then to the amp via RCA. If you hear the hum, the issue is that you might need to ground M-Scaler. If you don't hear the hum, then go back to how you have everything connected (which I presume is Aries to M-Scaler via USB, the M-Scaler to DAVE then DAVE via RCA) and then issue is a ground loop probably from Aries to DAVE via the M-Scaler. For that, you either need to ground Aires or ground M-Scaler.

To ground Aries or M-Scaler in the US/Canada, the easiest way is to ask your dealer to make you a thin cable with coax on one end and a speaker banana plug on the other end as you can simply plug the banana plug into the ground lead of the US/Canada Type A power outlet. The problem in Wales is that you use Type G outlet. So your dealer might need to connect the coax to a Type G power plug or you might want to buy iFi Groundhog+. Moreover, that power plug also needs to go into the AQ Niagara so that they're on the same ground circuit.

My strong suspicion is that once you ground Aries or M-scaler, the hum would go away.


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## rkt31

Remove earth pin from mains power plug or connect all equipment to common earth. Removing earth can be a safety issue but eliminates ground loop. XLR by design cancels the noise.


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## thomaskong78

Another option is to use isolation transformer.

It also clear up the sound in addition to solving ground hum issue.


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## burbster

ecwl said:


> I have to admit I'm personally suspicious that the ground loop is not coming from DAVE as it is much more likely to be related to Aries or M-Scaler. And if you have a powered USB drive plugged into the Aries, it could be from that USB drive.
> 
> First, I presume Aries, DAVE and M-Scaler and amplifiers are all plugged into your AQ Niagara. Because if one of these devices are not on the same power bar, you're already introducing a longer and potentially more problematic ground loop.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for the detailed response, and I probably should have been more detailed in my description of the problem. With everything fully disconnected and unplugged, with only the amp on and speakers connected there is no hum. Plug the RCA leads between amp and switched off DAVE, no hum, connect the earth pin on the supply to the Dave, then the hum starts. Mscaler and Aries and this point are unplugged and disconnected. (Incidentally I ditched my USB connection between Aries and MScaler, I found even the free optical cable sounded significantly better.)


----------



## Triode User

burbster said:


> Quick question for the forum, I am hoping to tap into your collective intelligence!!!
> 
> I have a developed a ground loop hiss in my system which i have traced to my Dave. As soon as I connect the earth on the Dave the hum appears. The strange thing though, and what I wanted.opinions on, is when i use the xlr outputs there is no hum, as soon as i use the RCA the hum appears, on both left and right. It's not the cable as i have changed that. I am assuming an xlr cable does not connect Dave and amps chassis together? Any ideas how to get rid of this, is it a case of returning Dave for repair ? I could just use xlr but worrying I am just masking the problem.



Hi, When you say you have "developed" a ground loop hiss", what do you mean by developed. Did it gradually come on or did you change anything? And you say hiss but also say hum elsewhere. Is it a hiss or a hum? Is it possible that the RCA cables are near some other mains cables and are picking the hum up from that?

My first suspicion is that it is not the Dave and that the ground loop is elsewhere but it is odd that you did not have it before unless you changed something in the system.

Oh, and please do not remove the earth from the power plug if you want to have a long life.


----------



## burbster

It is a hum not a hiss. I recently swapped out my RCA interconnects from the Dave to the power amp (using dave as a preamp) The cables were wonderful, but I started to hear this hum, at first only for the first 20 minutes or so, when everything warmed up it went quiet. But over the course of around a week it has become permanent and quite noticeable. I obviously thought it was the new cables, took them out tried XLRs no issues at all. Tried another set of RCAs and hum is there. I have now tried three sets of RCA cables all exact same hum so not the cable. I have just tried switching off everything in my house, I have a dedicated HiFi ring main, so I left that on, unplugged everything expect DAVE and power amp. Turn amp on with leads hanging out of back of amp, no hum. Connect leads to the dave, Off or On makes no difference, as long as its plugged in, the hum comes, on both channels at the same noise level. I am really struggling to figure it out. I am thinking there is something wrong with Dave single ended outputs. But then why do XLRs work, as they are taken from the single ended outputs through another output stage, so you would think that any fault would flow through to them as well??? May take dave back to dealer tomorrow to try it there.


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## ecwl

burbster said:


> It is a hum not a hiss. I recently swapped out my RCA interconnects from the Dave to the power amp (using dave as a preamp) The cables were wonderful, but I started to hear this hum, at first only for the first 20 minutes or so, when everything warmed up it went quiet. But over the course of around a week it has become permanent and quite noticeable. I obviously thought it was the new cables, took them out tried XLRs no issues at all. Tried another set of RCAs and hum is there. I have now tried three sets of RCA cables all exact same hum so not the cable. I have just tried switching off everything in my house, I have a dedicated HiFi ring main, so I left that on, unplugged everything expect DAVE and power amp. Turn amp on with leads hanging out of back of amp, no hum. Connect leads to the dave, Off or On makes no difference, as long as its plugged in, the hum comes, on both channels at the same noise level. I am really struggling to figure it out. I am thinking there is something wrong with Dave single ended outputs. But then why do XLRs work, as they are taken from the single ended outputs through another output stage, so you would think that any fault would flow through to them as well??? May take dave back to dealer tomorrow to try it there.


Yeah. That's very odd. It's either the amp or DAVE. Best to take it to your dealer to sort out.


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## BassicScience

burbster said:


> It is a hum not a hiss. I recently swapped out my RCA interconnects from the Dave to the power amp (using dave as a preamp) The cables were wonderful, but I started to hear this hum, at first only for the first 20 minutes or so, when everything warmed up it went quiet. But over the course of around a week it has become permanent and quite noticeable. I obviously thought it was the new cables, took them out tried XLRs no issues at all. Tried another set of RCAs and hum is there. I have now tried three sets of RCA cables all exact same hum so not the cable. I have just tried switching off everything in my house, I have a dedicated HiFi ring main, so I left that on, unplugged everything expect DAVE and power amp. Turn amp on with leads hanging out of back of amp, no hum. Connect leads to the dave, Off or On makes no difference, as long as its plugged in, the hum comes, on both channels at the same noise level. I am really struggling to figure it out. I am thinking there is something wrong with Dave single ended outputs. But then why do XLRs work, as they are taken from the single ended outputs through another output stage, so you would think that any fault would flow through to them as well??? May take dave back to dealer tomorrow to try it there.


Simple answer: RCA cables reference the signal to ground; XLR cables do not. If ground is at different levels between the connected components, the XLR won't care. The internals of how the balanced signal is generated are irrelevant. It is almost assuredly an issue with your A/C configuration as opposed to a problem with one of the components. Should be easy enough to experiment with different plugs, room, or building to verify that. FWIW.


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## adyc (Jul 2, 2019)

burbster said:


> It is a hum not a hiss. I recently swapped out my RCA interconnects from the Dave to the power amp (using dave as a preamp) The cables were wonderful, but I started to hear this hum, at first only for the first 20 minutes or so, when everything warmed up it went quiet. But over the course of around a week it has become permanent and quite noticeable. I obviously thought it was the new cables, took them out tried XLRs no issues at all. Tried another set of RCAs and hum is there. I have now tried three sets of RCA cables all exact same hum so not the cable. I have just tried switching off everything in my house, I have a dedicated HiFi ring main, so I left that on, unplugged everything expect DAVE and power amp. Turn amp on with leads hanging out of back of amp, no hum. Connect leads to the dave, Off or On makes no difference, as long as its plugged in, the hum comes, on both channels at the same noise level. I am really struggling to figure it out. I am thinking there is something wrong with Dave single ended outputs. But then why do XLRs work, as they are taken from the single ended outputs through another output stage, so you would think that any fault would flow through to them as well??? May take dave back to dealer tomorrow to try it there.



Are the amp and DAVE are plugged in the same power strip? If not, can you try that to see whether hum goes away? Please use normal consumer power strip not audiophile power conditioner.

Sometimes it is not enough they are on the same circuit.


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## burbster

adyc said:


> Are the amp and DAVE are plugged in the same power strip? If not, can you try that to see whether hum goes away? Please use normal consumer power strip not audiophile power conditioner.
> 
> Sometimes it is not enough they are on the same circuit.



Yes tried them both in cheap 2 way extension lead, still there.


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## burbster

thomaskong78 said:


> Another option is to use isolation transformer.
> 
> It also clear up the sound in addition to solving ground hum issue.



I was thinking about doing this, just need to understand how you earth the secondary side. In the UK isolating transformers are used domestically to feed bathroom shaver points, but the secondary is deliberately not earthed, the supply is floating to prevent a shock if you come in to contact with the live side of 220V. Not sure what the implications are of having a floating supply on hi fo equipment would be. So I suspect I would need to earth the secondary side separately, and create a new clean earth. ???


----------



## adyc

burbster said:


> Yes tried them both in cheap 2 way extension lead, still there.



Ok. Can you try to disconnect the earth wire of the electrical plug of DAVE?


----------



## burbster

adyc said:


> Ok. Can you try to disconnect the earth wire of the electrical plug of DAVE?



Will try that now, temporarily of course!


----------



## adyc

burbster said:


> I was thinking about doing this, just need to understand how you earth the secondary side. In the UK isolating transformers are used domestically to feed bathroom shaver points, but the secondary is deliberately not earthed, the supply is floating to prevent a shock if you come in to contact with the live side of 220V. Not sure what the implications are of having a floating supply on hi fo equipment would be. So I suspect I would need to earth the secondary side separately, and create a new clean earth. ???




If the circuit is floating, there can’t be any ground hum. However, some Hi-Fi equipment manufacturers require ground to function. But I know that some Japanese audiophiles float their Hi-Fi circuit to improve sound.


----------



## burbster

Just tried that, hum virtually goes, a lot quieter.


----------



## adyc

burbster said:


> Just tried that, hum virtually goes, a lot quieter.



Are you prepared to use figure 8 power cable? Or better send back to Chord to examine.


----------



## burbster

adyc said:


> Are you prepared to use figure 8 power cable? Or better send back to Chord to examine.



I think I will take it back to dealer tomorrow to see if fault is replicated in shop. Also a factory has come on line recently in the vicinity. I am not clear exactly what they do but they seem to occasionally start a process that results in a low drone. This drone has now been constant for the last 48 hours, which is when this fault became constant. So just wondering are they putting out some noise on the power line that the DAVE is sensitive to and the niagara cant clean? If DAVE is ok in shop may try a UPS running on battery only, just to prove it is incoming supply.


----------



## Triode User

burbster said:


> Just tried that, hum virtually goes, a lot quieter.



That doesn’t mean the Dave is the culprit. I would stick with the plan of taking it to the dealer and trying it in his system. Or better still borrow a Dave from him and see if that hums in your system.


----------



## thomaskong78

burbster said:


> I was thinking about doing this, just need to understand how you earth the secondary side. In the UK isolating transformers are used domestically to feed bathroom shaver points, but the secondary is deliberately not earthed, the supply is floating to prevent a shock if you come in to contact with the live side of 220V. Not sure what the implications are of having a floating supply on hi fo equipment would be. So I suspect I would need to earth the secondary side separately, and create a new clean earth. ???


If you order isolation transformer, then you may return it if it does not work or improve the sound at least in US.


----------



## adyc

burbster said:


> I think I will take it back to dealer tomorrow to see if fault is replicated in shop. Also a factory has come on line recently in the vicinity. I am not clear exactly what they do but they seem to occasionally start a process that results in a low drone. This drone has now been constant for the last 48 hours, which is when this fault became constant. So just wondering are they putting out some noise on the power line that the DAVE is sensitive to and the niagara cant clean? If DAVE is ok in shop may try a UPS running on battery only, just to prove it is incoming supply.




Maybe. But I know that my DAVE is quite sensitive to electrical noise. I once had a noisy electrical equipment on the same circuit as DAVE. Turning on and off that equipment will cause DAVE to go haywire which the other equipments on the same circuit are not affected.


----------



## watermad

Chord DAVE Mechanical Isolation with Nordost Sort Kone

I have used the Nordost Sort Fut under my Hi-Fi Rack to good effect and thinking of the Sort Kones https://nordost.com/sort-systems/sort-kone.php under my DAVE.

Is anyone using the Nordost Sort Kones under their DAVE, I'd appreciate your views, positive or negative.


----------



## tunes

I am considering purchasing either the Benchmark AHB2 or the HPA4 for use with CHORD DAVE and Susvara and or Abyss PHI TC. Has anyone compared the AHB2 to the HPA4 yet with Susvara.....? I was also considering the PASS Labs XA25 but don’t really want an amp that runs super hot and requires a long on time to get to peak sound. That’s why I gave up on tube amps.


----------



## GryphonGuy

watermad said:


> Chord DAVE Mechanical Isolation with Nordost Sort Kone
> 
> I have used the Nordost Sort Fut under my Hi-Fi Rack to good effect and thinking of the Sort Kones https://nordost.com/sort-systems/sort-kone.php under my DAVE.
> 
> Is anyone using the Nordost Sort Kones under their DAVE, I'd appreciate your views, positive or negative.



I sat in the Singapore Nordost dealer's showroom recently for a demo of the Nordost Kone System. The dealer was extremely eager to show the impact of Nordost Kones EVEN on power strips he had on the floor. So he played a track of a female singer standing in front of a grand piano. She was about 1 metre in front of the piano. Wonderful soundstaging and precise. He then said listen to the Kones JUST under the power-strip feeding the rack with electricity.

I listened. The upper registers of the music had become slightly emphasised and slightly harsh. The singer was now in the same space as the piano. The soundstage had collapsed. I said to the dealer, these Kones must be introducing vibrations BECAUSE the pristine soundstage had collapsed (nothing else was changed). He said never mind about that (I don't think he understood my English). Did you hear the difference these cones make? I said yes. He said how many would you like to buy. When I said none because they degraded his demo system, he obviously heard that, he was stunned and did not answer. He just let me walk out.

YMMV as always. But from my demo of the Nordost Kones, they killed the soundstage (regardless of the metal composition of the tip).

Regards
GG


----------



## nikhilthemeal

Excited to be getting a Chord Dave in soon! Hopefully it has sufficient power for a Sennheiser HD 820 and is worth the money lol


----------



## ZappaMan

nikhilthemeal said:


> Excited to be getting a Chord Dave in soon! Hopefully it has sufficient power for a Sennheiser HD 820 and is worth the money lol


Colour? Killer black ?


----------



## nikhilthemeal

ZappaMan said:


> Colour? Killer black ?



Yes killer black indeed. I am so excited to see the combo aesthetically with the black and the glass. DROOOOL


----------



## JaZZ

The most expensive electronics component of my life, but also the best one – beside the Hugo M Scaler.

Don't worry, the HD 820 is an easy load for it! (It's the best «amp» for my frequently used HD 800 I can think of.)


----------



## nikhilthemeal

JaZZ said:


> The most expensive electronics component of my life, but also the best one – beside the Hugo M Scaler.
> 
> Don't worry, the HD 820 is an easy load for it! (It's the best «amp» for my frequently used HD 800 I can think of.)



Awesome that's reassuring to hear hahaha. Mscaler is also my next steps in the future, right now though my wallet is flat as paper. I might swap out the hd 820 in the near future as I dont need a closed back but for the time being I expect great things from this combo.

Out of curiosity what is your favorite pairing with the DAVE?


----------



## simorag

JaZZ said:


> The most expensive electronics component of my life, but also the best one – beside the Hugo M Scaler.



Same here!

A huge bonus of the DAVE - in _addition_ to its already outstanding virtues as a DAC, which is quite a thing - is its versatility as a DAC / preamplifier / headphone amp. Several other audio components can do the same, but very few are top level in all three working conditions.

I am now in the process of changing my amplifier (willing to try high power speaker amp for my Abyss and my speakers). The DAVE allows me to first sell my current amp to raise the funds, then take all the time I need to choose my next amp, as I can enjoy my headphones system at most of its potential in the interim. Also, I have the freedom to choose between a power amplifier and an integrated at my pleasure.

Getting the DAVE as the main pillar of my rig has turned out to work very well strategically in my case, especially since the M Scaler has been made available.

Quite an investment, but these guys are going to stay in my system for several years


----------



## JaZZ

nikhilthemeal said:


> Awesome that's reassuring to hear hahaha. Mscaler is also my next steps in the future, right now though my wallet is flat as paper. I might swap out the hd 820 in the near future as I dont need a closed back but for the time being I expect great things from this combo.
> 
> Out of curiosity what is your favorite pairing with the DAVE?


Currently I like the HE1000se most. It's virtually flawless to my ears and has incredible resolution and extension to both frequency extremes. I use some subtle EQ corrections, though. My (modified) HD 800 – with larger EQ corrections – also gets frequent use, followed by Electrostat 1 (with Stax Lambda Pro drivers) .


----------



## Deano1974

nikhilthemeal said:


> Yes killer black indeed. I am so excited to see the combo aesthetically with the black and the glass. DROOOOL


Yes! She is super sexy in black


----------



## Deano1974

Hi Guys, 

After reading online that many reviewers and owners of the Dave had stated that Dave used as a preamp was astounding!

I was a little miffed! 

I initially setup Dave on day one as Preamp/Dac and was not impressed, actully I was quite disappointed, so I swapped back to my LDR preamp, and was loving the sound and emotion 

Then last night, I had a eureka moment and thought I wonder if after nearly 2 weeks of use and run in period if Dave's preamp sound would have changed

So with that I swapped over the cables and switched Dave from DAC only mode to Preamp/Dac and listened intently,

Wow, wow, wow, everything was different, and the clarity, and layering had significantly changed for the better.

Now I get it, and yes the preamp section of Dave is amazing, if you have only ever heard Dave's preamp section before the full run in period and thought it sound a little flat and thin, I would strongly suggest you give Dave another go as a Preamp/Dac

The difference after run in period is literally night and day 

Anyways just my opinion, 

I thought I would share and would like to hear if other members here have had the same experience? 

Thanks for reading 

Cheers

Deano


----------



## nikhilthemeal

Deano1974 said:


> Yes! She is super sexy in black



Those are gorgeous pictures. Cannot wait for my unit to arrive, will definitely share pics in this thread once it arrives!


----------



## Deano1974

Dave is going to blow your mind


----------



## nikhilthemeal

Deano1974 said:


> Dave is going to blow your mind



I've heard it a few times at show settings, it sounded very effortless in its sound reproduction, but of course it was so loud in the background thus my impressions were very sub-optimal. Definitely a lot to look forward to in my quiet controlled environment with music I know.


----------



## x RELIC x

Deano1974 said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> After reading online that many reviewers and owners of the Dave had stated that Dave used as a preamp was astounding!
> 
> ...



Interesting given that the ‘preamp section’ is just digital volume control and there is only one output stage, the same simple output stage, used in all modes (nothing is changed or bypassed in the hardware). 

Volume differences are all I can logically think of for any difference between modes.


----------



## Deano1974

Thanks for the input, and yes I understand too the system is not different and maybe it could be just my ears, but there were 3 of us listening straight out of the box and there was definitely a a big difference

Very strange, maybe the difference is Dave was not run in, I don't know, hard to explain

Maybe I'm the only one who has experienced this, I don't know


----------



## Deftone

nikhilthemeal said:


> Excited to be getting a Chord Dave in soon! Hopefully it has sufficient power for a Sennheiser HD 820 and is worth the money lol



It should have plenty of power, synergy could be the problem.


----------



## Deftone

Deano1974 said:


> Thanks for the input, and yes I understand too the system is not different and maybe it could be just my ears, but there were 3 of us listening straight out of the box and there was definitely a a big difference
> 
> Very strange, maybe the difference is Dave was not run in, I don't know, hard to explain
> 
> Maybe I'm the only one who has experienced this, I don't know



I dont think there is a pre amp section in dave and i also didnt know Chord DACs required a burn in period?


----------



## GryphonGuy

Deftone said:


> I dont think there is a pre amp section in dave and i also didnt know Chord DACs required a burn in period?



Yes 3 output modes. DAC Mode (full volume or no volume control), Digital Pre-amp (volume control) or headphone (no output from XLR or RCA at the back).

Regards
GG


----------



## Deftone

GryphonGuy said:


> Yes 3 output modes. DAC Mode (full volume or no volume control), Digital Pre-amp (volume control) or headphone (no output from XLR or RCA at the back).
> 
> Regards
> GG



Then isnt that just volume preset  for each one then like Relic said and not an actual "pre amp section"?


----------



## nikhilthemeal

Quick question to anyone who has experience. Do power cables make a significant difference with the Dave? Currently eyeing a Naim Powerline or Siltech Ruby Mountain II


----------



## jarnopp

Deftone said:


> I dont think there is a pre amp section in dave and i also didnt know Chord DACs required a burn in period?



Brain burn-in, perhaps?


----------



## Deano1974

Maybe who knows but very strange as 3 of heard the same difference


----------



## burbster

nikhilthemeal said:


> Quick question to anyone who has experience. Do power cables make a significant difference with the Dave? Currently eyeing a Naim Powerline or Siltech Ruby Mountain II



From my own experience I would say yes they do, everyone’s idea of significant is different though, but I certainly noticed a difference. There seems to be a general view that Dave is quite sensitive to its power input. But always try before you buy, many variables in play when it comes to power, what works for one may not work at all for someone else.


----------



## Drewligarchy

Here is a relatively basic question:

In DAC mode Dave outputs 3v single ended and 6v balanced and sets the volume control to 3db. In order to output the same 3v in balanced, would I set the volume control to -9db?

While I know single ended is most transparent output with the Dave, I am using a couple amps with it. I previously used my V281 single ended and want to replicate the same gain going into the amp via balanced, as I have to use that output for it.


----------



## musickid

You have an excellent assortment of gear there. Impressive. Enough to open shop.


----------



## Drewligarchy

musickid said:


> You have an excellent assortment of gear there. Impressive. Enough to open shop.



Thank you. I keep intending on buying a flagship headphone that I can go dave direct, but I keep going in other directions.

Frankly, I am so impressed with the Abyss Rig right now, I may sell either my LCD4 Rig or Stax Rig.


----------



## musickid

It's knowing when to stop and just be happy with the sound you have and focus more on music. My final set up will be mscaler/oppo pm1 which i have now and will soon add a TT2. It's all i can afford and want. Just that simple rig is 8.5K Sterling. It satisfies my needs though.


----------



## Drewligarchy

musickid said:


> It's knowing when to stop and just be happy with the sound you have and focus more on music. My final set up will be mscaler/oppo pm1 which i have now and will soon add a TT2. It's all i can afford and want. Just that simple rig is 8.5K Sterling. It satisfies my needs though.



Hey - more power to you. I’ve accumulated the gear I have, sold some, kept a lot - over 7 years. I readily admit to enjoying gear for gears sake, but I wouldn’t be in this if I not for music. If you can afford it and it makes you happy that’s all that matters.


----------



## Drewligarchy

Drewligarchy said:


> Here is a relatively basic question:
> 
> In DAC mode Dave outputs 3v single ended and 6v balanced and sets the volume control to 3db. In order to output the same 3v in balanced, would I set the volume control to -9db?
> 
> While I know single ended is most transparent output with the Dave, I am using a couple amps with it. I previously used my V281 single ended and want to replicate the same gain going into the amp via balanced, as I have to use that output for it.



Just bumping my question (apologies for the quick bump) regarding matching voltage/output on balanced.

from what I've read:

3db is a doubling of volume
6db is a doubling of power
and 10 db is a perceived doubling of volume

That confused me significantly more. I've set it around -9/-10 db, but am just curious as to what exactly would duplicate 3 volts on balanced.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## llamaluv

Drewligarchy said:


> curious as to what exactly would duplicate 3 volts on balanced


When using balanced-out, change the digital volume by -6dB to get the equivalent voltage output as single-ended out (-6dB = 50%).


----------



## GryphonGuy

Deftone said:


> Then isnt that just volume preset  for each one then like Relic said and not an actual "pre amp section"?



The output is variable at line levels with the exception of the fixed output in DAC mode. I'm sorry, apparently I am not understanding your issue with Dave's outputs or modes or whatever else. Suffice to say I never worry about the technicalities because DAVE just sounds so good and even better when it plugs into my amp directly (no dedicated pre-amp appliance because DAVE is already at line level amplification).

Regards
GG


----------



## GryphonGuy

nikhilthemeal said:


> Quick question to anyone who has experience. Do power cables make a significant difference with the Dave? Currently eyeing a Naim Powerline or Siltech Ruby Mountain II



Huge difference. I run my DAVE from Shunyata Denali and Sigma power cable. And the difference between the next series down (Alpha) is huge as well. In fact, My whole stereo (Krell amplifier included) has never sounded as good since the Shunyata Denali and Sigma cables were installed.

The Shunyata Denali replaced a PowerStation device that was clipping a lot off my top end (the top end was simply missing which is why I needed to change and not sorry about my empty wallet afterwards)

Regards
GG


----------



## Drewligarchy

llamaluv said:


> When using balanced-out, change the digital volume by -6dB to get the equivalent voltage output as single-ended out (-6dB = 50%).



Thankyou! That was the exact information I was looking for.


----------



## Blitzula

At some point I'm going to pull the trigger on a Dave. I'll need a new soundcard with optical out.

Would you recommend an internal or external soundcard? Both for the Dave and music in general.


----------



## Deano1974

Hey Guys,

I have a question, when using Dave in Dac/Pre amp mode and feeding a LDR preamp via single ended cables, is there and ideal volume setting for the output volume 

I know in DAC mode the Dave is outputing - 3db,

I'm wondering if anyone else here is connecting to an LDR preamp the same way and what output volume they use 

Cheers 

Deano


----------



## ZappaMan

Blitzula said:


> At some point I'm going to pull the trigger on a Dave. I'll need a new soundcard with optical out.
> 
> Would you recommend an internal or external soundcard? Both for the Dave and music in general.


Prob best not to go with a sound card approach, but external would be best as it’s further away from electrical activity of the main pc...

I know my optical can stutter annoyingly as my pc gets busy, or even switching tabs in a browser.


----------



## ecwl

Deano1974 said:


> I have a question, when using Dave in Dac/Pre amp mode and feeding a LDR preamp via single ended cables, is there and ideal volume setting for the output volume


I don’t own an LDR preamp as my DAVE directly goes into the amp. But if you feel strongly about using LDR preamp, this is my take (from my Benchmark DAC1 and Jriver digital volume experience). Different analog volume settings have different linearity, channel matching and transparency. Usually, the setting around 12 o’clock is the more linear and neutral. So to get optimal performance, I would suggest the solution is not to set DAVE at a fixed volume and then turn the LDR volume control but the other way around. You should listen to the same musical materials at various fixed LDR preamp volume settings and change the DAVE volume to determine how loud you’d like your music. The LDR preamp volume that sounds the most detailed and revealing to you is probably where you should leave the LDR fixed at that volume and then you can use DAVE to control music volume.


----------



## Blitzula

ZappaMan said:


> Prob best not to go with a sound card approach...



Thanks...if my music is on a PC, what option is there other than a sound card approach? USB?


----------



## Saleh84

Blitzula said:


> Thanks...if my music is on a PC, what option is there other than a sound card approach? USB?


My advice is try a dedicated music streamer/server. You will never use a PC for audio afterwards


----------



## Blitzula

Saleh84 said:


> My advice is try a dedicated music streamer/server.



What's the flow from the PC to streamer/server...or do I have to move music off the PC?

How does Dave pick up the signal from that?


----------



## odessamarin (Jul 8, 2019)

Blitzula said:


> Thanks...if my music is on a PC, what option is there other than a sound card approach? USB?



This the best I can advice... (and I have it for my Dave)

RPi3 B+  - 37 USD
https://www.amazon.com/ELEMENT-Element14-Raspberry-Pi-Motherboard/dp/B07BDR5PDW/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1VQXUID8FILMS&keywords=rpi+3+b+&qid=1562596044&s=gateway&sprefix=rpi,aps,339&sr=8-3

PI2AES or 502DAC - around 150 USD
http://www.pi2design.com/

Volumie - Free
https://volumio.org/

For less then 200 USD you will have streamer for all your digital audio connected to DAVE with AES.
This system is the best I ever heard as digital source. DAVE really shine when correct numbers (digital input) provided.
This configuration will blow your mind.. guaranteed.
I will help you to set it up.. if you need. It's really easy.
Just try, you will be surprised. It cost almost nothing at the end.. 

.. it will be your dedicated music streamer/server controlled from any smart device - phone, tablet, PC..


----------



## gnomen (Jul 8, 2019)

Saleh84 said:


> My advice is try a dedicated music streamer/server. You will never use a PC for audio afterwards


Interesting series of comments.  I am thinking about updating my music server (from an iMac+Pure Music via USB to DAC) but the advice is so conflicted.  Many say "use optical" to get electrical isolation but ZappaMan reports otherwise.  I looked at Small Green Computer's SonicTransporter+MicroRendu, but I just can't get my head around how sending everything in packets over Ethernet via a domestic router is going to be better than a direct connection, USB or Optical.  Where am I missing the point?


----------



## odessamarin (Jul 8, 2019)

gnomen said:


> Interesting series of comments.  I am thinking about updating my music server (from an iMac+Pure Music via USB to DAC) but the advice is so conflicted.  Many say "use optical" to get electrical isolation but ZappaMan reports otherwise.  I looked at Small Green Computer's SonicTransporter+MicroRendu, but I just can't get my head around how sending everything in packets over Ethernet via a domestic router is going to be better than a direct connection, USB or Optical.  Where am I missing the point?



After long try and test story USB, Optic, Coax.. my end choice is AES. This professional standard and realized very well in DAVE as digital input. Accepting everything up to 64DSD!

And in proposed system you can completely isolate you source (from where everything start) form AC line or any other wires. Data from air (WiFi) and Power from battery. This configuration sound just unavailable with Dave and direct HD800s.


----------



## Saleh84

Blitzula said:


> What's the flow from the PC to streamer/server...or do I have to move music off the PC?
> 
> How does Dave pick up the signal from that?



an independent streamer will either have its own storage (like aurender N100H or N10) + ability to stream from Tidal and qobuz, or without HDD (like dCS Network bridge) but will stream from local NAS and has the ability to play music from Tidal/Qobuz as well. there are so many options out there for Streamers from the very expensive to the cheap. with various preferred method of providing digital out: some have USB only, others have the whole lot from AES, optical, coax and BNC for you to choose your favorite. most of streamers will offer you some sort of app control via a smart phone or tablet. some could work with roon, others will only use their proprietary app like aurender. talking streamers is a huge topic with lots of brand/options/opinions.  
the selection of streamer does actually affect your sound to its core - I quit on the idea that bits are bits long ago. each streamer will have its own distinct sound signature. wither its leaning to bright/warm, dynamic or laid back. you can investigate more on the internet - many reviews, discussion threads. however, the one thing I'm certain of, almost any of those would be better than a PC or a laptop. 

main things in my opinion while deciding which streamer to get;
-how it "sounds" like as per what the majority of users say on forums, reviews. if you can demo before you buy, that is the best way to go.
-how are you going to control music play back and track selection etc. is this app/method reliable or finky?
-if it has internal HDD or will connect to your NAS where your music is stored
-if you use roon, will it work as core or end point only
-does it have some sort of high end clock for lower/zero jitter? this option is usually costing much more money. but it makes a difference. mostly you will connect your dac via Spdif (BNC, Coax, Optical or AES) to take advantage of the high end streamer clock. USB will depend on DAC clock, which is pretty decent in DAVE. the streamer will give you the benefit of much less noise/jitter and blacker background still.
-how good is the power supply portion/ have they done their best to isolate the audio out from internal noise etc. 

I read that DAVE is pretty resilient to bad power and noisy signals. but I can tell you with confidence, it still gets affected. if you have a DAC of such high caliber like DAVE, you owe to yourself to try a better signal into it.

personally I use aurender N10 into my R2R DAC via AES. but a friend of mine owns DAVE with N10 and he is very happy using an ATLAS Marvos BNC. another DAVE owner I know uses dCS network bridge with same ATLAS cable (phenomenal cable for the money by the way. terrible while breaking in thou). good synergy for both these streamers with DAVE from what I heard. 

I think if you are skipping USB (personally I don't like USB for Audio - its only advantage is the bandwidth which is not everything), with DAVE you best connection to use would be probably BNC. it has more bandwidth on Chord devices generally, up to 384 khz if I'm not mistaken. which means you can stream double DSD from a compatible streamer via one cable. Rob watts favors BNC as a connection somehow i believe. also, if you plan to add an M scaler moving forward, you are pretty much limited to dual BNC between these devices. then you can only connect your streamer to m scaler via USB, BNC, or optical only. I would still choose BNC for that connection. sounds better than USB out of the right streamer, and has more bandwidth than the optical.
optical on paper looks interesting, as its using light - not electrons interaction. I have tried recently some high end, 480 aperture glass cable. it was really good sounding, but my AQ Wel signature AES still sounded better. one last thing; I wont recommend investing in an expensive AES cable with DAVE, as if you decide on adding M scaler, that AES cable will be useless. m scaler has no AES input...!

hope that I have been of help


----------



## Deftone

Blitzula said:


> At some point I'm going to pull the trigger on a Dave. I'll need a new soundcard with optical out.
> 
> Would you recommend an internal or external soundcard? Both for the Dave and music in general.



Just go for an internal Asus card to fit in a PCI slot and make sure your driver's for the card are up to date and you should be able to get bit perfect optical output no problem.


----------



## Deftone (Jul 8, 2019)

ZappaMan said:


> Prob best not to go with a sound card approach, but external would be best as it’s further away from electrical activity of the main pc...
> 
> I know my optical can stutter annoyingly as my pc gets busy, or even switching tabs in a browser.



That shouldn't be happening so there could be an issue somewhere else. I have been using optical output from my motherboard for a few years now and it never freaks out even when stressing the system with heavy gaming.


----------



## naynay

Saleh84 said:


> (personally I don't like USB for Audio - its only advantage is the bandwidth which is not everything)



Then you need to try a better server thats dedicated to USB and better USB cable


----------



## Saleh84

naynay said:


> Then you need to try a better server thats dedicated to USB and better USB cable


Aurender N10 has a great USB out as well. I have tried that using various USB cables from audioquest, sablone and ifi. My personal observation was that USB sound like a thin flat layer, larger sound stage (which does impress at a quick glance), vocals seemed to be bigger and more forward but less focused (also impressive at first). In comparison to spdif which feels more 3D but relatively smaller sound stage, with better separation, vocals are more focused/accurate, everything sounds more evenly balanced. But that's my spdif out through aurender's N10 OCXO clock which i like to believe is special, maybe its not who knows. Its just my observations in my system, which could be totally different with different components and cables.


----------



## naynay

Aurender N10 is still not a USB only dedicated streamer so you will not hear what USB audio is fully capable off through Ms/Dave.


----------



## x RELIC x

Saleh84 said:


> In comparison to spdif which feels more 3D but relatively smaller sound stage, with better separation, vocals are more focused/accurate, everything sounds more evenly balanced.



Please specify coaxial S/PDiF or optical S/PDiF.


----------



## Saleh84

naynay said:


> Aurender N10 is still not a USB only dedicated streamer so you will not hear what USB audio is fully capable off through Ms/Dave.


Fully agree. My opinion was formed from using N10 usb out, also a experimenting with a friend using his auralic aries g2 which offers USB and spdif. Digital signal into his chord dave (i have three friends who own dave!) Observations were consistent and in line with what i mentioned above. But we have not tried USB only server like innuos or other brands that focus on USB only.


----------



## Saleh84

x RELIC x said:


> Please specify coaxial S/PDiF or optical S/PDiF.


In my system i use AES/EBU to my r2r dac. My friends who own dave all 3 of them use BNC


----------



## musickid

If you send me a dave i will happily be your 4th friend who also owns a dave.


----------



## thomaskong78

My first serious audio system was Garrard turntable, Fisher Int(SS), ADS bookspeaker bought on 1978.

I bought Technics CD player on 1984.

It sound harsh and bright compared with vinyl.

I gave up vinyl when I moved from Berkeley to Chicago on 1988 since I have no room to carry in my small car.

I upgraded to California Audio Mark2 on 1989.

It was way better than Technics CD player with refined treble and better dynamics.

I had used passive pre, Krell KSA 150 to drive Apogee Duetta Sig.

On 1999, I upgraded to DCS Elgar and upsampler using TEC Tl0x transport.

Wow now, I got the feeling that it could match good vinyl system.

But after using DCS Elgar for 6 years, it got out of order and I gave it up with uncertain repair cost and shipping to UK.

TEC Tl0x transport also had kept failing to read some CDs.

Thus I had chnaged to Accustic Arts CD transport and Dac which was a downgrade from DCS Elgar and upsampler using TEC Tl0x transport..

On 2010, I had got EMMLab Dac2 to replace Accustic Arts Dac.

It had excellent dynamics, details and soundstage which made me enjoy the music again with Lansche 4.1 speaker and Silbatone 300B SET amp.

On 2019 I had got Jay Audio CDT2 and Lyngdorf 2170 to use it as Room correction, Dac.

But after using it for 4 months, I found that Lyngdorf 2170 falls slightly short of EMMLab Dac2 on bass slam and details.

Thus I had auditioned several Dacs to upgrade from EMMLab Dac2.


Point 100
There is nothing to criticize over MSB Select II except its high price around 100K$.
It has magical relaxed texture similar to top grade vinyl.

Dynamics, details, soundstage are all excellent.

Point 95
Kalista Dreamplay transport and Dac
It has excellent matching MSB Select II.

The only down side is that it does not have relaxed texture similar to top grade vinyl although it still sounds silky.

Point 91.
Trinity Dac
This one is also all round player with hard to criticize.
But it falls slightly short of MSB Select II on details and relaxed texture.

Point 90
Lampiziator Pacific Dac
I had auditioned this Dac with same setup with MSB Select II.

This one is also all round player with hard to criticize.
It falls slightly short of MSB Select II on dynamics and relaxed texture.
But this one has a nice bloom and full bodied sound,
which make some people prefer this one to MSB Select II



Point 85
Chord Dave and Mscaler(or Blue II transport)
This one give transparent and 3D soundstage with excellent details.
But it need good system matching.
It could sound analytical or hot coupled with bright combination of speaker and amplifier.
Without upscaling using Mscaler, its sound is mediocre around 75 points.

Point 84
MSB Premier with one more basic power supply
I had auditioned this one side by side with Lampiziator Pacific Dac.
It matches Pacific Dac with Dynamics, details, soundstage but fall short of Pacific Dac in magical bloom and full body.
With improved power supply or clock, its performance have room to improve further.

Point 80
Formula XHD Dac
I auditioned this one side by side with Trinity Dac
This one is a very musical player with full bloom.
But it falls short of Trinity Dac by one notch in dynamics and bass slam.

Point 79
TotalDac 6 tube version
This one is also a very musical player.
But from the point of audiophile, its dynamics, details, soundstage are all one notch below the standard set by MSB Select II.


Point 78
MSB Discrete Dac with one additional basic power supply.
This one has similar sound signature to MSB Premier
But it is half notch below MSB Premier on dynamics, details, soundstage.

Point 75
EmmLab Dac2
I paid 9K$ for this on 2010.
It matches Chord Dave and Mscaler on dynamics with slightly more bass slam.
But Chord Dave and Mscaler give more transparent and deeper soundstage than EmmLab Dac2 while soundstage width are comparable to each other.
This one has slight fuller sound than Chord Dave and Mscaler.
It is still working fine after 10 years of use.


Point 73.

Lyngdorf 2170
This one has Dac, pre and power amp, active crossover and room correction functions.
It's Dac sounds very similar to EmmLab Dac2 but with slightly less details and bass slam.

There are many Dacs to audition but I could not audition all of them.


I had bought Chord Dave and Mscaler late May.

Recently I play musicals and operas very often enjoying excellent 3D soundstage.

But I do not believe that I can live with Chord Dave and Mscaler for my life.


If some innovative Dac better than MSB Select II come out under 50K$ in the future, then I will upgrade to it.

Otherwise, I expect to use Chord Dave and Mscaler for 3 years or longer.

I open the possibility of upgrading to excellent music server like SGM Extreme in the near future.


----------



## Blitzula

Deftone said:


> Just go for an internal Asus card to fit in a PCI slot... you should be able to get bit perfect optical output...



Do you have a Dave and output this way?


----------



## Deftone

Blitzula said:


> Do you have a Dave and output this way?



No but I do the same from my Asus motherboard that already had optical output which I use with Hugo 2 and Mojo.


----------



## mrgray

Hi there,
new owner of a Dave.  sounds great but of course i am still getting used to it.

What is the current advice re: setup please?

I am currently just connecting via USB with either macbook or phone.  mainly listening via headphones.

is there anything recommended for me to realise full potential or?  perhaps i could do better with the source?

i am getting a USB output for my sony wm1z and so that would be via USB but from the sony wm1z. i presume that might be relatively good?

thanks for any help.


----------



## Andrew DiMarcangelo

mrgray said:


> Hi there,
> new owner of a Dave.  sounds great but of course i am still getting used to it.
> 
> What is the current advice re: setup please?
> ...



Congrats! MacBook and phone are totally fine as sources, as long as you're using a high quality USB 2.0 cable like an iFi Mercury, you're good to go.


----------



## mrgray

thanks for confirming suitability of current setup.  

wow!  i have had my Dave for about 24 hours. i have listened to it a lot and i have had it running 24/7.  

it is seriously difficult to describe how inadequate the listening experience is at the store.  if i was relying on my own in store assessment, i would be very silly to buy this.  ultimately it is on the strength of recommendation that one must purchase (excluding those with the ability to trial gear for longer periods at home).  the depressing thing in the first 24 hours is you can hear a difference but is it enough (also on new headphones at this point so equipment isn't burnt in and neither am i).

but after doing something like 8 hours of listening, suddenly more detail starts to reveal itself.  it is another level of detail i haven't had before.  we all have bits of songs we use as a reference or comparison point.  i've moved past a prominent bass part at 1:18 in wuthering heights to another bass part directly after that i have never heard before.

i presume as my head gets used to it things will continue to reveal themselves.


----------



## TheAttorney

thomaskong78 said:


> Point 85
> Chord Dave and Mscaler(or Blue II transport)
> This one give transparent and 3D soundstage with excellent details.
> But it need good system matching.
> ...



Firstly, that was a very impressive list of high end components you have listened to. Did you audition all of them in the same place with the same system?

Secondly, before you spend another $50K on a HMS/DAVE replacement, I think you can tweak your HMS/DAVE much more to your liking.

I've sometimes heard people say that DAVE is too bright or analytical for them. But is DAVE the cause of that, or is it transparently reflecting an issue elsewhere in the system?
For example, I've previously raved over the Blaxius^2D BNC cables between my HMS and DAVE. These have 3 levels of screening and each screen can be connected to the others and to ground, at each end, in several combinations.
I've recently played about with this configurability, and found I can get my system to sound smooth&warm, or bright&dynamic, simply by making a seemingly trivial screening change.
So which is the real DAVE? The warm one or the bright one? Or is it the cable? Or is it something else in the system that is now being shown up to a greater or lesser degree by a particular HMS/Cable/DAVE combination?

Thirdly, having suggested that the brightness issue may lay elsewhere, I will shortly post a suggested tweak directly to both HMS and DAVE - that I have found to increase the "weight", "solidity" and "analogueness" of the resulting sound.
And some readers will be relieved to know that it has nothing to do with cables or ferrites .


----------



## odessamarin

TheAttorney said:


> Thirdly, having suggested that the brightness issue may lay elsewhere, I will shortly post a suggested tweak directly to both HMS and DAVE - that I have found to increase the "weight", "solidity" and "analogueness" of the resulting sound.



can't wait to try..


----------



## TheAttorney (Jul 12, 2019)

Hmm.. I may need to reset expectations a bit lower: This is an update to some old DAVE vibration control posts. Now to include the HMS.

I find it hard to understand why hewn-from-rock products like DAVE or HMS could benefit from vibration control. They have thick enclosures, no moving parts, no large transformers, and I don't have loudspeakers to excite the room foundations.
So what is there left to vibrate? I don't know, but I've found that tweaks in this area can make incremental improvements, albeit in infuriatingly unpredicable ways. Price is no guarantee to success.

My DAVE sits on Black Ravioli footers, and my HMS sits on Clearlight RDC 4 cones. Both are reasonably priced compared to some Audiophool products.
I'm sure there are better sounding footers out there, but the Black Ravioli's in particular are a great match for DAVE because they are small, neat, kind to furniture and very stable because they can be stuck on (and this last point is why I'm not able to try them on my HMS - instead I dug out the old RDC cones from my spares box).

As examples of unpredictability, I heard no improvements to DAVE when using the more expensive HRS Nimbus footers, or the frighteningly expensive HRS Vortex footers.
And the RDC cones made no noticeable difference when they were cone-side up under my HMS, but did make a difference when cone-side down. Go figure.

What both these footers did was add a subtle touch of clarity/focus/dynamics to the sound. But neither of them did much to give a weightier, more solid presentation that some of us search for.
But HRS damping plates did just that. I started with the smallest DP II, which almost perfectly fits on top of  DAVE's LHS. And the black finish almost perfectly matches my black DAVE. But the weighter sound came with some compromises - some over-smooothing, a loss of air and sparkle.

I later tried the thicker (and of course more expensive) DPX plates. These were well worth it. Even more weight and body, but now there was no loss in detail/air/sparkle - it was all there, just presented in a smoother, more natural manner.
Apart from cost, the main downside of the DPX is that it looks clumsier than the slim DP II on DAVE.

When the HMS arrived, I tried the now-spare DP II, but this didn't do much to SQ. But then the DPX gave the same improvement to HMS as it did to DAVE. Because the HMS surface area is so much greater, I could move around the DPX plate and did find that position subtly matters. So I currently have the DPX on the HMS and DPII on DAVE. And am considering trying a larger DPX on HMS to free up the small DPX to go back onto DAVE.

So, are these footers and damping plates worth it, as I keep saying how subtle the differences are?
In the context of a 5-figure cost hifi system, then yes I think so, particularly if you are searching for that weighter, more natural sound.
But this area is so unpredicatble that I recommend a try-before-buy, or at least a dealer with a good returns policy.

Note that the HRS products are much better value in their home US than they are in the UK.
Note also, that both damping plates and footers will obstruct some of DAVE's ventilation holes. I've never noticed any difference in DAVE's enclosure temperature, but those in hotter climates should take extra care to leave DAVE at least in standby mode when not in use. On the plus side, the extra height of the footers will increase ventilation from below.


----------



## thomaskong78 (Jul 11, 2019)

TheAttorney said:


> Firstly, that was a very impressive list of high end components you have listened to. Did you audition all of them in the same place with the same system?
> 
> Secondly, before you spend another $50K on a HMS/DAVE replacement, I think you can tweak your HMS/DAVE much more to your liking.
> 
> ...


I am having good results with Sablon Panaletta BNC digital cables between Dave and HMS.

Thus it is working fine.  Another thing is I am using Line Magnetic SET amplifier fitted with NOS tubes and top new production Psavne Acme tubes.

SET amp help to make sound full and round.

I am happy with the sound. Bur frankly speaking it still fall shorts of the analog easiness of MSB Select II.


----------



## Blitzula

TheAttorney said:


> I've sometimes heard people say that DAVE is too bright or analytical for them. .



That concern is one of the reasons I haven't picked up a Dave yet.

I want gear that inspires emotion, not analysis. Where you just get lost in the music and aren't focused or have attention called to details and transparency. 

I'd be interested in knowing folks who do/do not have that emotion with Dave (owned, auditioned, returned). The case where you just turn on whatever you want to listen to, the music just sounds right, and you let the music take you away (or not, if the music doesn't move you).


----------



## thomaskong78 (Jul 11, 2019)

Blitzula said:


> That concern is one of the reasons I haven't picked up a Dave yet.
> 
> I want gear that inspires emotion, not analysis. Where you just get lost in the music and aren't focused or have attention called to details and transparency.
> 
> I'd be interested in knowing folks who do/do not have that emotion with Dave (owned, auditioned, returned). The case where you just turn on whatever you want to listen to, the music just sounds right, and you let the music take you away (or not, if the music doesn't move you).


You can tame Dave and HMS ( I  do not recommend Dave without HMS) to full and round sound.

The main advantage of Dave is  transparent  3D holographic soundstage.

It also works well with headphones.

The sound from Stax009s, Carbon Amp, Dave and HMS combination leave nothing to be desired with musical nuanced details and decent dynamics.

But If you are looking for rush and emotional sound, I recommend you to try Formular XHD or lower model, Lampiziatior Pacific or Golden Gate.

Those warm sounding Dac may work well with speakers but not with headphones

They can sound too soft with headphones.


----------



## ecwl

Blitzula said:


> That concern is one of the reasons I haven't picked up a Dave yet.
> 
> I want gear that inspires emotion, not analysis. Where you just get lost in the music and aren't focused or have attention called to details and transparency.


The only times when I've heard DAVE sound bright or too analytical is when we are listening to really horrible recordings (and I mean they have to be really, really horrible) or when the speakers or headphones were bright to begin with (as in on objective measurements, you can see that their treble frequency response is often on the higher/louder end).

And often, I've found that people get so attached to their favorite speakers or headphones that would normally sound bright with neutral electronics that they specifically chose equipments that tamp down that brightness that are not neutral.

Obviously, I haven't listened to everyone's system so it's hard for me to comment on every scenario. But at least that's my general experience from listening to my DAVE, moving my DAVE around to various people's systems or Head-Fi meets and from my dealer's DAVE paired with various speakers of his.


----------



## JaZZ (Jul 11, 2019)

You can easily tame brightness in an imperfect system (via equalizer – mandatory anyway if you want to maximize sound quality with any real-world sound transducer), but you can't restore lost transparency. So I would choose the most transparent and resolving DAC by all means. That is, if you want a sound close to the original, not a romanticized version of it.


----------



## Deano1974

TheAttorney said:


> Hmm.. I may need to reset expectations a bit lower: This is an update to some old DAVE vibration control posts. Now to include the HMS.
> 
> I find it hard to understand why hewn-from-rock products like DAVE or HMS could benefit from vibration control. They have thick enclosures, no moving parts, no large transformers, and I don't have loudspeakers to excite the room foundations.
> So what is there left to vibrate? I don't know, but I've found that tweaks in this area can make incremental improvements, albeit in infuriatingly unpredicable ways. Price is no guarantee to success.
> ...



Thanks for the info, can you please post pictures of what the Dave and HMS look like with the isolation products 

Cheers

Deano


----------



## audio_1

thomaskong78 said:


> Point 100
> There is nothing to criticize over MSB Select II except its high price around 100K$.
> It has magical relaxed texture similar to top grade vinyl.
> 
> ...




It is physically impossible for the MSB Select DAC to sound better than the Chord Dave and Mscaler / Blu2 on 44.1 kHz material imho. Providing that RF hygiene has been taken care of with Ferrites or Wave cables. The MSB select DAC doesn't upsample, so transient reconstruction and timing are compromised. At the Munich show this year, the MSB Select DAC sounded slow and ponderous with very little emotional involvement with the Music. The Select DAC is very smooth sounding, perhaps like analogue, but not live music. It was partnered with MSB's new power amps and Magico M6 loudspeakers. It may have been the amplifiers or cables, it definitely was not the Magico M6 loudspeakers. They sounded great in the Soulution and Total Dac rooms. This was my assessment at the show. I have since seen 2 posts on What's best forum, that agree with my assessment. When the Dave and Mscaler or Blu2 are setup correctly, the sound quality is unique and not possible with conventional dacs. The timing, dynamics and prat, that leads to a foot tapping  listening experience and puts a smile on your face are incredible. I have heard the Dave sound like this in 3 setups, but never any MSB or other dacs. Unfortunately, not in my own system at the moment as I an waiting on new loudspeakers. If your system doesn't time, you will never hear this.


----------



## dac64 (Jul 11, 2019)

Deano1974 said:


> Thanks for the info, can you please post pictures of what the Dave and HMS look like with the isolation products
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Deano



Sure!


----------



## Christer

dac64 said:


> Sure!


Nice Yoga pose. I know from long experience that the headstand is good for me.
But I did not know it is good for my Qutest and HMS too.
Do they need much  time to learn this?
I remember it took me more than a few attemps before I mastered it myself many years ago.
Creative thinking.
I'll remember this for the tropics this coming winter.Both could get very hot indeed last winter when temperatures reached 34-35C. With the hot heart chakra of HMS facing up, heat dissipation will surely work much better in the headstand pose. 
Cheers CC


----------



## TheAttorney (Jul 13, 2019)

Deano1974 said:


> Thanks for the info, can you please post pictures of what the Dave and HMS look like with the isolation products
> 
> Deano



Here are some photos showing thick and thin damper plates on DAVE and HMS. The black finish is almost identical to DAVE's, as is the depth.
The Black Ravioli footers are too subtle to photograph properly - I don't think anyone would ever guess that there were audiophile footers under this DAVE.
These are about 2mm higher than stock.
The Clearlights are quite a bit higher than that - there are 2 at the back of the HMS and 1 at the front approximately in the middle.


----------



## BassicScience

audio_1 said:


> When the Dave and Mscaler or Blu2 are setup correctly, the sound quality is unique and not possible with conventional dacs. The timing, dynamics and prat, that leads to a foot tapping  listening experience and puts a smile on your face are incredible. I have heard the Dave sound like this in 3 setups, but never any MSB or other dacs. Unfortunately, not in my own system at the moment as I an waiting on new loudspeakers. If your system doesn't time, you will never hear this.


I understand fanboy enthusiasm, but stating that your setup is the only one capable of rendering music with compelling rhythmic drive is beyond silly.


----------



## jlbrach

is that a pair of susvara's being driven directly from the dave????


----------



## audio_1

BassicScience said:


> I understand fanboy enthusiasm, but stating that your setup is the only one capable of rendering music with compelling rhythmic drive is beyond silly.


I actually said that my system wasn't able to. Please reread my post.


----------



## thomaskong78

jlbrach said:


> is that a pair of susvara's being driven directly from the dave????


Dave has only 2 watts output.

Susvara needs at least 20 watts for full dynamics.

Thus you may try Dave on Susvara with only low volume.


----------



## jlbrach

Susvara most definitely does not require 50 watts but the Dave alone is not up to the task. I currently use the formula s powerman combo and it is outstanding


----------



## thomaskong78 (Jul 12, 2019)

Chord Dave and HMS is very good for the money although not better than MSB Select II as claimed by Fanboys here.

The nice thing of Chord Dave and HMS is transparent and 3D soundstage which matches MSB Select II in soundstage.

But if falls short of MSB Select II in dynamics and relaxed analog like texture.


Impression after spending 30 hours on Stax 009S and KGSSHV Carbon made by loligagger.


I am using Jays Audio CDT2 MK2 to connect to Lyngdorf 2170 for digital equalization and then to Mscaler and Dave.


 Sablon Panatella BNC digital cables between Mscaler and Dave and Zenwave D4 from transport to Lyngdorf and Silnote Morpheus II from Lyngdorf to Mscaler.


From Dave to Carbon, I use Analysis Plus XLR cable.


After 20 hours of use and I had Stax and Carbon compared with my 2 channel system Lansche 4.1(plasma tweeter) driven by Line Magnetic 508 SET (Amperex 6SL7, 1944 Sylvania vt231 Nos tubes, Psavne Acme 805 and 300B tubes).

My 2 channel system go deeper to 20Hz with better dynamics and deeper soundstage.

Also my 2 channel system presents slightly more transparency and details.


Stax and Carbon sounds more intimate but with more realistic focus while the soundstage width are comparable.

With no eq, Stax and Carbon sounds very dynamic and no weakness of bass except sub 30Hz bass of organ.

It has a round texture with nuanced details neither hot or bright.

It is very musical and enjoyable.

I had done some experiment on equalization with Lyngdorf 2170.

With gradual eq of 2db up at 7khz and 3 db at 15khz, Stax and Carbon sounds more open and transparent.


I had paid 60K$ for my speaker and SET amplifier including the cost of tube rolling.

Stax009S and Carbon costs me 6500$ used ( Stax009S were 4 months old and Carbon amp is less than one month old, they looks like new one 9-10 condition).


I prefer my 2 channel system to Stax009S and Carbon on overall dynamics and more 3 D holographic soundstage.

But Stax009S and Carbon sounds so musical and nuanced with decent dynamics that I can enjoy music with windows open during summer time not to disturb my neighbors.


If I had got KGSSHV Carbon Ground Grid amplifier, there would be more room to tune the sound through tube rolling, but I am happy as is.

I expect to spend 60/40 time between my 2 channel and headphone system.

Thus after equalization using Lyngdorf 2170, Stax009S and KGSSHV Carbon headphone system perfectly fit my needs.

Thomas


----------



## iDesign

thomaskong78 said:


> Chord Dave and HMS is very good for the money although not better than MSB Select II as claimed by Fanboys here.
> 
> The nice thing of Chord Dave and HMS is transparent and 3D soundstage which matches MSB Select II in soundstage.
> 
> ...


How can you possibly interpret how other people perceive sound or understand their individual preferences enough to generalize that the MSB Select is better let alone suggest someone who prefers one or the other is a “fanboy?”


----------



## thomaskong78 (Jul 12, 2019)

iDesign said:


> How can you possibly interpret how other people perceive sound or understand their individual preferences enough to generalize that the MSB Select is better let alone suggest someone who prefers one or the other is a “fanboy?”


If you had not auditioned  MSB Select II yourself, you can not say anything.

Although I like my Dave and Hms under 20k$, it is no match to MSB Select II.


----------



## Thenewguy007

iDesign said:


> How can you possibly interpret how other people perceive sound or understand their individual preferences enough to generalize that the MSB Select is better let alone suggest someone who prefers one or the other is a “fanboy?”



Well he heard them both.

Not a lot of people here can say they auditioned a $100,000 DAC.


----------



## iDesign (Jul 13, 2019)

Thenewguy007 said:


> Well he heard them both.
> 
> Not a lot of people here can say they auditioned a $100,000 DAC.


I also heard the MSB Select at THE Show 2019 and on multiple occasions. The point is that just because someone prefers one brand over another does not make them a “fanboy.” For example, I don’t agree with or perceive certain spatial issues of the height, width, depth of sound that are often written about a DAC like the MSB Select, Yggdrasil etc-- instead, I attribute that to my individual preferences and hearing. I don’t come on Head-Fi accusing people who hear differently to be fanboys.


----------



## BassicScience

audio_1 said:


> I actually said that my system wasn't able to. Please reread my post.


OK, I stand corrected. What you did state was that the Chord chain produces sound that is "unique" and that said sound gets the toes tapping and the face smiling like no "conventional" DAC can. I'm not sure if by _conventional_ you mean non-upsampling, but I will grant you that upsampling is a desirable quality in a DAC. That said, there are dozens of high quality DACs out there that upsample internally. Hell, you can upsample from JRiver and probably a ton of other software apps before streaming to even "conventional" DACs. Chord's implementation may be unique, but it doesn't mean it's better. Based on my few sonic encounters with the Dave, I certainly didn't hear anything groundbreaking. Their whole "mistimed transient" spiel is bogus pseudoscience, in my opinion. YMMV.

If the Chord chain floats your boat, more power to you. I just didn't like the implication that nothing else can match up to it musically speaking.


----------



## TheAttorney

jlbrach said:


> is that a pair of susvara's being driven directly from the dave????



No, it's the HEK SE - a superb match with DAVE


----------



## Christer (Jul 13, 2019)

TheAttorney said:


> No, it's the HEK SE - a superb match with DAVE



And the cable?
I can see that it is not the stock cable.
As far as I know both HEK V2  the HEK SE and the Susvara are sold with the same type of cable.
While not the best quality build wise ,the  thin rubbery stock cable which I am still using with my HEKV2 is at least good enough to make the differences in sound character clearly audible between the three imho.
But I've gone though three standard plug stock cable exchanges in three years for build quality reasons, luckily all within warranty time.
For really large dynamic range big  symphonic material the HEKSE is the only one I would recommend to use directly with DAVE.
Cheers CC


----------



## TheAttorney

Christer said:


> And the cable?
> I can see that it is not the stock cable.
> For really large dynamic range big  symphonic material the HEKSE is the only one I would recommend to use directly with DAVE.
> Cheers CC



The cable is Toxic's Silver Widow 22AWG - sliver with a tiny bit of gold. Great cable that gives loads of detail and dynamics without any harshness, But sadlyToxic Cable is no more.
I reterminated it myself to fit the new 3.5mm sockets in the HEK SE .

I thought the stock rubbery hifiman cables were reasonably ok, and I've never had any reliability issues with them. But for SQ, they can definitely be beaten, with plenty of suggestions in the HEK thread.
I prefer to buy cables locally (ease of returns for retermination etc), so I'd probably go for Lavri next time - at least while UK is still in the EU .

I thought that my HEK V2 sounded great directly driven by DAVE. But the SE sounds better still, with a greater improvement than the price differential would suggest. I guess the extra 6dB efficiency makes a difference, but I'm sure it's more than that.

BTW, since getting the HMS, then Blaxius, I'm finding I can listen at least 3dB lower than I used to with solo DAVE, in order to get the same musical "hit". I guess the more lifelike and dynamic presentation, along with reduced glare, is responsible for that.


----------



## dac64 (Jul 14, 2019)

Christer said:


> ...When temperatures reached 34-35C...



The Qutest was just lukewarm and HMS was just passed 40C, maybe 39C when played. 

However, both were tightly coupled to symposium ultra platform to absorb those micro-vabriations from the two.


----------



## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> BTW, since getting the HMS, then Blaxius, I'm finding I can listen at least 3dB lower than I used to with solo DAVE, in order to get the same musical "hit". I guess the more lifelike and dynamic presentation, along with reduced glare, is responsible for that.



I assume you know that putting the HMS in the system reduces the output volume by 3dB so to get the same volume with the HMS you need to increase the volume of Dave by 3dB. Sorry if this is a Granny sucking eggs comment in which case please ignore but just wanted to make sure.


----------



## TheAttorney

Triode User said:


> I assume you know that putting the HMS in the system reduces the output volume by 3dB so to get the same volume with the HMS you need to increase the volume of Dave by 3dB.



Yes, my comment was a bit ambiguous. To be more precise, my typical solo DAVE volume control setting for HEK V2 was -32dB. 

HMS reduces output by 2.75dB, rounded to 3 dB for easier maths. Therefore with HMS included, I should theoretically now listen to the same track at -29dB to get the same output.
Swapping HEK V2 to SE adds 6dB efficiency (according to hifiman), so I should now be listening to the same track at -35dB.

But in practice I now listen to that track at -38dB, so it seems I can get the same musical hit with 3dB less volume.
By musical hit, I mean the tipping point at which "background listening" turns into something more like "you are there", where the focus and dynamic impact seem to all snap into place to demand my attention.

Further volume increases can further the effect, but each additional 1dB step is not as important as that initial 1dB increase. And this matters to me because I don't want to exacerbate my mild tinnitus.


----------



## JaZZ (Jul 14, 2019)

That's a very low level, Attorney! My listening habits look like –27 up to –18 dB*, depending on the recording (although those are all normalized and peak-limited to –0.005 dB). This with the standard dual-BNC cables – for now.

*Actually I forgot to take my _foobar/xnor_ equalizer into acount. Considering the exclusively negative corrections, the effective volume is about 4.5 dB lower than above values.


----------



## Christer (Jul 14, 2019)

dac64 said:


> The Qutest was just lukewarm and HMS was just passed 40C, maybe 39C when played.
> 
> However, both were tightly coupled to symposium ultra platform to absorb those micro-vabriations from the two.




Sorry if I was a bit unclear in my comment maybe. I meant the  indoor temperature  in the Condo in Thailand without the  A/C on!!
I often listened to music with the A/C off to avoid the noise it made.
34-35C was not  the temp of HMS, it was much  much hotter.
Frying eggs hot, would be a closer description of how  it felt to touch.

I'll remember the "bottoms up" and try it when the need  for it arises again.

 This summer in Sweden my HMS which is on almost all day and night until the Telly goes on occasionally,  never got more than lukewarm to touch.
The first week of July was the coldest in 40 years  in parts of  Sweden so no worries about overheating.

But watching Telly with the HMS on is a no go.
It disturbs reception very much making it impossible to leave on all the  time both here and in the tropics with a TV in the same room.
But noise wise and SQ wise my current trial with upgrade well insulated BNC cables sure makes a  very notable difference to my musical enjoyment.
Cheers CC


----------



## Christer (Jul 14, 2019)

TheAttorney said:


> Yes, my comment was a bit ambiguous. To be more precise, my typical solo DAVE volume control setting for HEK V2 was -32dB.
> 
> HMS reduces output by 2.75dB, rounded to 3 dB for easier maths. Therefore with HMS included, I should theoretically now listen to the same track at -29dB to get the same output.
> Swapping HEK V2 to SE adds 6dB efficiency (according to hifiman), so I should now be listening to the same track at -35dB.
> ...



Some others work with half dB volume steps which I find very useful to really fine-tune loudness  levels. I don't know why Chord uses whole dB steps? To me 1 dB louder or lower can be quite a step.
But I am also finding that with the Wave Fidelity BNC cables I am trying in my system I also don't need to turn up the level as I used to have to do to hear very low level inner detail clearly.
With a calmer clearer more open window to the music I enjoy things even more than with the stock BNC.

 Very OT maybe? But since you mention mild tinnitus, have you heard about the new treatment apparently helpful both against traumas and also tinnitus,with electrical stimulation at the point just above the eyebrows on the forehead?

To an old yoga freak like me, familiar with that buzzing point, it looks almost as if the third eye  brain connection may just have been validated scientifically?

According to the TV  documentary I saw recently ,there is even  a direct nerve  connection between that point on the forehead in Yoga referred to as the third eye or Agnya Chakra and deeper regions of the brain like the amygdala.
And electrical stimulation of that point  on the forehead has obviously  been shown to be beneficial not only for  patients with lingering traumas, but also tinnitus.
PS The yoga tradition  "third eye" was never mentioned in the programme that is just my own personal reflection when I saw the point where they put the plaster.
The treatment seems to be firmly based on accepted science and since I first  forgot to mention where I saw this, it was in a recent episode of Mosley's "Trust me I'm a doctor" on  BBC.
Cheers CC


----------



## thomaskong78

My wife is the youngest of my mom in law who is 88 years old.

Recently my wife is staying with her mom to take care  expecting her mom can live just one more year or so.

Thus I am having happy life playing music loud even during midnight.

My house is seated on 2 acre lot so that my neighbors does not get bothered unless windows open wide.


My wife dropped at home yesterday ( She drop once a week to clean the messy kitchen while she is away.  She is an angel Ha ha).

She happened to see my new headphone of Stax 009S headphone and asked its price.

I could tell her the real value ( new price 4,300$ and I got 4 months used one for 3,200$).

I did not mean to deceive her but answered it costs me 1,500$ by chance.


Then she had listened to K-Pop using both  Stax 009S headphone driven by Carbon amplifier and Massdrop  Empire Zeus IEM( I told her the real value as 1,000$ No lie here Hehe).

The source was  Cocktail Audio X30 music server feeding  Chord Dave and Mscaler ( I did not tell her how much Chord Dave and Mscaler cost, if she find out, I may have to buy her diamond necklace)

On first few songs, she prefer  Empire Zeus IEM  to  Stax 009S headphone on lively sound of the former.

But after listening few more songs, she expressed that  Stax 009S headphone sounds more natural than  Empire Zeus IEM .


Whew if I had told her that I had spent 3200$ on headphone, I may have to go out to buy her something like expensive bag or clothing.

Reality is I had also spent additional 3300$ on  KGSSHV Carbon headphone amplifier.

How many of you audiophile had lied to your wife or girlfriend about the cost of audio components?

I guess 98% from my 41 years of audio history.


----------



## supabayes

thomaskong78 said:


> My wife is the youngest of my mom in law who is 88 years old.
> 
> Recently my wife is staying with her mom to take care  expecting her mom can live just one more year or so.
> 
> ...



She's a darling for having an interest in your hobby and trying out your new purchases to listen to k-pop. As for hiding the true price of gears from my wife? I would never do that. Trust/honesty is supreme in a marriage. I always ask her consent before buying. She would thank me for asking her even though it is my hobby and my money. I guess your wife could have bought a couple of expensive bags while at her mom's place and you don't know about it. Imagine her not telling you the true value when you ask.


----------



## thomaskong78

supabayes said:


> She's a darling for having an interest in your hobby and trying out your new purchases to listen to k-pop. As for hiding the true price of gears from my wife? I would never do that. Trust/honesty is supreme in a marriage. I always ask her consent before buying. She would thank me for asking her even though it is my hobby and my money. I guess your wife could have bought a couple of expensive bags while at her mom's place and you don't know about it. Imagine her not telling you the true value when you ask.




Reminds me of the story of the husband who misinformed his partner about the true cost of an audio something. When the husband came home from a business trip, his wife informed him with a big smile on her face, that she sold the audio item on agon for more than he paid for it!

This is  quote from someone else but with costly lesson.


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## thomaskong78 (Jul 15, 2019)

I had comparison of Jay's Audio CDT Mark2 and Cocktail Audio X30 with 2T SSD as source for Dave and HMS.

The former give slightly more details and transparent soundstage while the latter give more analog sound with better texture.

Soundstage width and depth are almost same.

Overall, I prefer the sound from Cocktail Audio X30 to Jay's Audio CDT Mark2 with analog texture.

It may be that Dave and Hms is more sensitive to upstream source.


----------



## supabayes

thomaskong78 said:


> I had comparison of Jay's Audio CDT Mark2 and Cocktail Audio X30 with 2T SSD as source for Dave and HMS.
> 
> The former give slightly more details and transparent soundstage while the latter give more analog sound with better texture.
> 
> ...


What connection did you use between transport and hms?


----------



## thomaskong78

supabayes said:


> What connection did you use between transport and hms?


Double Sablon Panatella BNC cables after trying out two more of them.

It give balanced sound with good details and nice dynamics.


----------



## astrostar59

simorag said:


> *Re: Using an external headphone amp with the DAVE and Abyss Phi*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



IMO this is more about another device in the chain than the DAVE itself. Looking at your system, I would go for the Curious USB, not use the Phasure Lush. I had the Lush 1 and it was very slow and dull sounding, too much energy was lost. MK2 is supposed to be better but I am betting the Curious will open your system up a LOT. Then look at your interconnects between the DAVE and your amp. Get some nice silver cables like the Audio Note AN-Vs for example. Finally look at your power supply. I would say the PS Audio P5 would sort that out for you, get the noise related stuff down and the bass and dynamics up.

Good luck!


----------



## xxx1313

astrostar59 said:


> IMO this is more about another device in the chain than the DAVE itself. Looking at your system, I would go for the Curious USB, not use the Phasure Lush. I had the Lush 1 and it was very slow and dull sounding, too much energy was lost. MK2 is supposed to be better but I am betting the Curious will open your system up a LOT. Then look at your interconnects between the DAVE and your amp. Get some nice silver cables like the Audio Note AN-Vs for example. Finally look at your power supply. I would say the PS Audio P5 would sort that out for you, get the noise related stuff down and the bass and dynamics up.
> 
> Good luck!



I would not give the advice to replace the Lush^2. I had both Curious USB and Phasure Lush1 (yes, the latter can sound slow and dull, indeed), but Lush^2 is an entirely different animal, imo. Extremely versatile with its different jumper configurations. I am still kind of blown away every day from what this cable can do in combination with M-Scaler/DAVE. However, I agree that clean power is important as well for the highly resolving Chord products with their low noise floor.


----------



## simorag (Jul 19, 2019)

astrostar59 said:


> IMO this is more about another device in the chain than the DAVE itself. Looking at your system, I would go for the Curious USB, not use the Phasure Lush. I had the Lush 1 and it was very slow and dull sounding, too much energy was lost. MK2 is supposed to be better but I am betting the Curious will open your system up a LOT. Then look at your interconnects between the DAVE and your amp. Get some nice silver cables like the Audio Note AN-Vs for example. Finally look at your power supply. I would say the PS Audio P5 would sort that out for you, get the noise related stuff down and the bass and dynamics up.
> 
> Good luck!



Hello @astrostar59 and thank you for your input!

After about 1 year of using the XI Audio Formula S / Powerman in combination with DAVE + AB-1266 and more recently with the Phi TC upgrade, I decided to sell the XI Audio in preparation to the next stage of my audio journey.

To my ears / tastes, the performances of my system in the areas you mention, like bass response, dynamics, resolution, openness are actually very satisfactory (not sure which part of my 2018 post was mentioning deficiencies in these areas).

What I am looking forward at the moment is a new amp to:

a) drive both headphones and efficient loudspeakers;
b) reduce upper midrange / lower treble energy towards a warmer coloration of the overall sound signature, aiming to a lusher midrange, without trading off on transparency etc..

In the next couple of months I am going to audition several amps like the Pass XA25, Accuphase E650, Riviera Labs AIC-10 and Air Tight ATM-300 to get a feeling of what a maxed-out (within my budget) set-up of my HMS + DAVE + AB-1266 Phi TC is capable of produce. By the way, if my budget was 15k and my rack allowed the placement of its massive 70kg of beautifulness, I would have contacted you @astrostar59 for an Aries Cerat Genus quote 

.

In the meanwhile I will audition the RAAL SR1a + Chord Etude as well, in order to check what I could get from a different path (i.e. not towards warmth, rather towards even more pronounced speaker-like and neutral listening experience).

After that I will decide what direction to take.


----------



## Triode User

simorag said:


> Hello @astrostar59 and thank you for your input!
> 
> After about 1 year of using the XI Audio Formula S / Powerman in combination with DAVE + AB-1266 and more recently with the Phi TC upgrade, I decided to sell the XI Audio in preparation to the next stage of my audio journey.
> 
> ...



It sounds like a fun time ahead. It is always a good thing to have the excuse to listen to new kit. I am a great fan of Pass Labs and I have heard good things about the XA25 so it will be interesting to see what you you think of that. Likewise the Etude which although different had also been getting some great feedback.


----------



## naynay

Hi,

Just a question regarding BNC cables, if the cable has a separate earth at one end, if used between Dave and M Scaler i am assuming the earth cable connects to a spare BNC on the Dave?

Thank you.


----------



## Deftone

Comparison with Dave in this video.


----------



## ecwl

Deftone said:


> Comparison with Dave in this video.



I think some would call me a Chord fanboy because I truly appreciate Chord DACs since the QBD76. I have not listened to dCS Bartok so in reality, I really should give it a listen when I can before I pass personal judgment.
That said, having skimmed over the video and only listened to the portion comparing DAVE & Bartok, I find it amusing that the reviewer said on one hand, Bartok sounds smoother and on the other hand, everything just sounds sharper and more exciting. To me, this is a common comment I see with people who are used to DAC chip DACs or DSD DACs because the noise floor modulation makes everything sound sharper and more exciting even when it's supposed to smooth vocals but because the actual timing and transients are imprecise, sometimes the sound is also smoother. That said, I could be wrong because when you add M-Scaler to DAVE, you also get better timing and transients so true attacks are sharper but smooth vocals are smoother.
Ultimately, I've definitely heard from people at my dealer preferring DACs other than DAVE. Some people also prefer headphones with really non-neutral frequency responses. At this price level, I think people just have to be sure they like the sound of the DAC before purchasing. As long as people are happy with their purchases, good for them.


----------



## iDesign (Jul 20, 2019)

ecwl said:


> I think some would call me a Chord fanboy because I truly appreciate Chord DACs since the QBD76. I have not listened to dCS Bartok so in reality, I really should give it a listen when I can before I pass personal judgment.
> That said, having skimmed over the video and only listened to the portion comparing DAVE & Bartok, I find it amusing that the reviewer said on one hand, Bartok sounds smoother and on the other hand, everything just sounds sharper and more exciting. To me, this is a common comment I see with people who are used to DAC chip DACs or DSD DACs because the noise floor modulation makes everything sound sharper and more exciting even when it's supposed to smooth vocals but because the actual timing and transients are imprecise, sometimes the sound is also smoother. That said, I could be wrong because when you add M-Scaler to DAVE, you also get better timing and transients so true attacks are sharper but smooth vocals are smoother.
> Ultimately, I've definitely heard from people at my dealer preferring DACs other than DAVE. Some people also prefer headphones with really non-neutral frequency responses. At this price level, I think people just have to be sure they like the sound of the DAC before purchasing. As long as people are happy with their purchases, good for them.


Agreed. It is hard to interpret some of John Darko's subjective comments and fully understand his preferences (I sense that he and I have completely different preferences based on the albums he listed). I am very interested to see complete measurements of the dCS Bartók versus the Chord DAVE to establish a baseline of objectivity. I have always found the headphone output of the DAVE to be ideal because it allows me to listen for multiple hours and without fatigue. Impressions of the dCS Bartók seem to unanimously state that the variable headphone output is more powerful, and combined with its other traits, I suspect I would find it fatiguing over multiple-hour listening sessions. I am certainly interested in testing the  dCS Bartók and evaluating its network options.


----------



## dac64

Christer said:


> Sorry if I was a bit unclear in my comment maybe. I meant the  indoor temperature  in the Condo in Thailand without the  A/C on!!
> I often listened to music with the A/C off to avoid the noise it made.
> 34-35C was not  the temp of HMS, it was much  much hotter.
> Frying eggs hot, would be a closer description of how  it felt to touch.
> ...



My outdoor temp is between 32 - 36C all year around. 34-35C indoor in Bangkok condo did surprise me initially. However, after considering "urban heat island" effect, it's a norm in Bangkok, after all, many pack high raises in Bangkok.

Anyway, after switching on a quiet ceiling fan, the Quest was metal cool, and HMS was as cool as human body, while played.


----------



## analogmusic

Hey ho

This is an audiophile forum

We are not interested in your yoga views.

Please avoid in future






For QUOTE="Christer, post: 15061947, member: 439374"]Some others work with half dB volume steps which I find very useful to really fine-tune loudness  levels. I don't know why Chord uses whole dB steps? To me 1 dB louder or lower can be quite a step.
But I am also finding that with the Wave Fidelity BNC cables I am trying in my system I also don't need to turn up the level as I used to have to do to hear very low level inner detail clearly.
With a calmer clearer more open window to the music I enjoy things even more than with the stock BNC.

 Very OT maybe? But since you mention mild tinnitus, have you heard about the new treatment apparently helpful both against traumas and also tinnitus,with electrical stimulation at the point just above the eyebrows on the forehead?

To an old yoga freak like me, familiar with that buzzing point, it looks almost as if the third eye  brain connection may just have been validated scientifically?

According to the TV  documentary I saw recently ,there is even  a direct nerve  connection between that point on the forehead in Yoga referred to as the third eye or Agnya Chakra and deeper regions of the brain like the amygdala.
And electrical stimulation of that point  on the forehead has obviously  been shown to be beneficial not only for  patients with lingering traumas, but also tinnitus.
PS The yoga tradition  "third eye" was never mentioned in the programme that is just my own personal reflection when I saw the point where they put the plaster.
The treatment seems to be firmly based on accepted science and since I first  forgot to mention where I saw this, it was in a recent episode of Mosley's "Trust me I'm a doctor" on  BBC.
Cheers CC[/QUOTE]


----------



## Rob Watts

iDesign said:


> Agreed. It is hard to interpret some of John Darko's subjective comments and fully understand his preferences (I sense that he and I have completely different preferences based on the albums he listed). I am very interested to see complete measurements of the dCS Bartók versus the Chord DAVE to establish a baseline of objectivity. I have always found the headphone output of the DAVE to be ideal because it allows me to listen for multiple hours and without fatigue. Impressions of the dCS Bartók seem to unanimously state that the variable headphone output is more powerful, and combined with its other traits, I suspect I would find it fatiguing over multiple-hour listening sessions. I am certainly interested in testing the  dCS Bartók and evaluating its network options.



The headphone output from the dCS website:

Headphone Outputs

1 stereo balanced pair on 1x 4-way male XLR connector. 1 stereo unbalanced pair on 1x 6.35mm (1/4”) 3-pole jack. Full-scale output levels are 1.4W rms into 33Ω, 0.15W rms into 300Ω. Output levels are 0, -10, -20, -30dB, set in the menu. Minimum headphone impedance is 33Ω.

This is identical output power to Dave - and is presumably in balanced mode against Dave's more transparent single ended. Note also that the minimum headphone impedance is 33Ω, suggesting that it doesn't have much current output (Dave's is 8Ω).


----------



## Thenewguy007

Rob Watts said:


> The headphone output from the dCS website:
> 
> Headphone Outputs
> 
> ...



Would the higher Ω account for the larger volume headroom difference?


----------



## Rob Watts

No as the voltage drive available is identical - just over 6v RMS. The lower impedance indicates that higher currents are possible from Dave...


----------



## audio_1 (Jul 21, 2019)

Deftone said:


> Comparison with Dave in this video.




It probably requires a separate master clock that costs more than a Chord M-Scaler to sound its "best". It would also be interesting to see it with the cover removed. I bet there is about a metre of computer ribbon cable inside, and probably some of this is in the analogue signal path! The digital volume control will also kill dynamics if excessive attenuation is used and too high an output voltage is selected. I wonder do the single ended outputs use op-amps like the Vilvaldi? This DAC in no way compares with a Chord Dave and Blu 2 or M-Scaler.


----------



## ecwl

iDesign said:


> I am very interested to see complete measurements of the dCS Bartók versus the Chord DAVE to establish a baseline of objectivity.


Cool. I just found the Hi Fi News measurements of both DACs and DAVE measures better.
https://www.hifinews.com/content/dcs-bartók-network-dacheadphone-amp-lab-report
https://www.bluebirdmusic.com/edit/files/pdf_documents/chord_electronics/hfn_chord_dave_lowres.pdf


----------



## audio_1

ecwl said:


> Cool. I just found the Hi Fi News measurements of both DACs and DAVE measures better.
> https://www.hifinews.com/content/dcs-bartók-network-dacheadphone-amp-lab-report
> https://www.bluebirdmusic.com/edit/files/pdf_documents/chord_electronics/hfn_chord_dave_lowres.pdf


No surprise there!


----------



## Musikfan

Hi, I'm hoping some of you might have experience with Chord preamps and might be able to tell me the main differences between the cpa 3000 and the CPS 5000.  I currently use the Dave+Mscaler with the Dave as preamp, and an Aesthetix Atlas and Vandersteen 5a carbons, with Dave as preamp.  I'm wondering ifi could squeeze out more performance if I use a separate preamp instead of the Dave as preamp.  Thanks for any advice and recommendations.


----------



## Christer (Jul 21, 2019)

dac64 said:


> My outdoor temp is between 32 - 36C all year around. 34-35C indoor in Bangkok condo did surprise me initially. However, after considering "urban heat island" effect, it's a norm in Bangkok, after all, many pack high raises in Bangkok.
> 
> Anyway, after switching on a quiet ceiling fan, the Quest was metal cool, and HMS was as cool as human body, while played.


Hello, I am  risking another scolding for OT posting again by responding again,I suppose,but in case you thought I stayed in Bangkok, the condo is not in Bangkok.No offence  intended,for those who live there, but I wouldn't spend more than a few nights at a time there even if you paid me.

Last time I was in Bangok two years ago it was in fact on a paid visit.
The air quality is a serious health hazard there.

The condo where I normally  spend a couple of months each winter is on one of the islands with a good air  quality index.
But it can get very hot even on the islands.

I do have a fan but it is also too noisy, so I sometimes turned everything  off while listening to music.
I can cope with heat quite well,  but not with  noise and air pollution.

Heat is no problem at all this summer in Sweden. My HMS actually sits on a small table with a table-cloth  and doesn't get more than lukewarm most days although being on almost all day and night.
Cheers CC


----------



## audio_1

Musikfan said:


> Hi, I'm hoping some of you might have experience with Chord preamps and might be able to tell me the main differences between the cpa 3000 and the CPS 5000.  I currently use the Dave+Mscaler with the Dave as preamp, and an Aesthetix Atlas and Vandersteen 5a carbons, with Dave as preamp.  I'm wondering ifi could squeeze out more performance if I use a separate preamp instead of the Dave as preamp.  Thanks for any advice and recommendations.



Dave is best and most transparent when driving power amplifiers direct. A pre-amp will make it sound worse.


----------



## Triode User

Musikfan said:


> Hi, I'm hoping some of you might have experience with Chord preamps and might be able to tell me the main differences between the cpa 3000 and the CPS 5000.  I currently use the Dave+Mscaler with the Dave as preamp, and an Aesthetix Atlas and Vandersteen 5a carbons, with Dave as preamp.  I'm wondering if i could squeeze out more performance if I use a separate preamp instead of the Dave as preamp.  Thanks for any advice and recommendations.



I have tried various very hi end preamps (I am talking of up to £20k UKP) between Dave and power amps and whilst they might give Dave a bit of a false lift in the bass and upper mids which seems at first to be attractive (but for me quickly tires) I find that the addition of the preamp robs the Dave of a greater or lesser extent of its superb transparency. As per usual though, the best way is to try for yourself as there is always YMMV in this game.


----------



## ecwl

Musikfan said:


> Hi, I'm hoping some of you might have experience with Chord preamps and might be able to tell me the main differences between the cpa 3000 and the CPS 5000.  I currently use the Dave+Mscaler with the Dave as preamp, and an Aesthetix Atlas and Vandersteen 5a carbons, with Dave as preamp.  I'm wondering ifi could squeeze out more performance if I use a separate preamp instead of the Dave as preamp.  Thanks for any advice and recommendations.


I agree with others that you'll lose transparency with a preamp, even if it's a Chord preamp. My take on the situation is that if you're still wondering if things can sound better, either you listen to a lot of old recordings and want a warmer sound so you'll want more distortion from a tube preamp (which I doubt) or that you have a bass frequency peak that is impacting the performance of your system that is a result of your room (& speaker and seat positions). This is because I think the frequency response of your Vandersteen is pretty flat so any bass response issues would be coming from room acoustics. Obviously, buying more electronics is not going to solve a room acoustic issue.
From my perspective, there are two potential solutions. One is to pay a true expert to fix the problem, like Jim Smith from Get Better Sound, who offers a RoomPlay service which helps you setup your speakers in person. Unfortunately, I've met enough self-proclaimed experts who really don't know what they're doing so I would only trust Jim Smith based on online comments. Of course, this would involve potentially significantly re-arranging your furniture/speakers by Jim Smith.
Another solution, given you already have a full digital system with UltraRendu, DAVE as digital preamp, etc., is to buy a USB microphone like miniDSP UMIK-1 and then run Room EQ Wizard to figure out what bass frequency response issues you have. If you play music off something like Roon, you can program in specific parametric EQ to digitally remove the bass peaks. My experience is that you actually don't want to simply use the measurements REW generates and punch it into Roon (or other software) because the music would lose a bit of life. And you definitely don't want to use the full room correction feature which I my opinion tend to over DSP the system. I generally just run parametric EQ on 1-3 bass peaks only and be done with it.
Theoretically, you can do both for optimal benefits. But my take is that given your system, if you're trying to squeeze even more performance out of it, it's good to go back to basics and fix any major bass response issues (in addition to other room acoustics issues, if possible).


----------



## supabayes (Jul 21, 2019)

ecwl said:


> I agree with others that you'll lose transparency with a preamp, even if it's a Chord preamp. My take on the situation is that if you're still wondering if things can sound better, either you listen to a lot of old recordings and want a warmer sound so you'll want more distortion from a tube preamp (which I doubt) or that you have a bass frequency peak that is impacting the performance of your system that is a result of your room (& speaker and seat positions). This is because I think the frequency response of your Vandersteen is pretty flat so any bass response issues would be coming from room acoustics. Obviously, buying more electronics is not going to solve a room acoustic issue.
> From my perspective, there are two potential solutions. One is to pay a true expert to fix the problem, like Jim Smith from Get Better Sound, who offers a RoomPlay service which helps you setup your speakers in person. Unfortunately, I've met enough self-proclaimed experts who really don't know what they're doing so I would only trust Jim Smith based on online comments. Of course, this would involve potentially significantly re-arranging your furniture/speakers by Jim Smith.
> Another solution, given you already have a full digital system with UltraRendu, DAVE as digital preamp, etc., is to buy a USB microphone like miniDSP UMIK-1 and then run Room EQ Wizard to figure out what bass frequency response issues you have. If you play music off something like Roon, you can program in specific parametric EQ to digitally remove the bass peaks. My experience is that you actually don't want to simply use the measurements REW generates and punch it into Roon (or other software) because the music would lose a bit of life. And you definitely don't want to use the full room correction feature which I my opinion tend to over DSP the system. I generally just run parametric EQ on 1-3 bass peaks only and be done with it.
> Theoretically, you can do both for optimal benefits. But my take is that given your system, if you're trying to squeeze even more performance out of it, it's good to go back to basics and fix any major bass response issues (in addition to other room acoustics issues, if possible).



Yes, bass due to standing waves is a concern for large speakers or having external sub set up. This was not a problem for near field listening when I transition from Head-Fi to Hi-Fi with a modest near field set up with Ragnarok and KEF LS50. I am now using a full range tower speaker and bass management requires attention. Big corner bass traps are not an option for me to install in my room and so I am using dual PSI Audio AVAA C20 active bass traps and more recently added the Trinnov Amethyst for room optimisation. The Trinnov is expensive but fantastic for room response frequencies and phase correction. Phase correction is an overlooked part but it matters greatly. Take a look at my attachment, the phase of low frequencies 50-100 is a mess. After correction, the bass is tight and coherent. Moreover, once the bass is under control, there is a huge improvement in clarity and imaging of the midrange and treble.

The Trinnov Amethyst preamp is not as transparent as the Dave and so I only use it as Roon Ready transport and send digital output to HMS+Dave. I tried using REW and Sonarworks but nothing beats the Trinnov for room optimisation and it is easy to set up.


----------



## ecwl

supabayes said:


> Yes, bass due to standing waves is a concern for large speakers or having external sub set up. This was not a problem for near field listening when I transition from Head-Fi to Hi-Fi with a modest near field set up with Ragnarok and KEF LS50. I am now using a full range tower speaker and bass management requires attention. Big corner bass traps are not an option for me to install in my room and so I am using dual PSI Audio AVAA C20 active bass traps and more recently added the Trinnov Amethyst for room optimisation. The Trinnov is expensive but fantastic for room response frequencies and phase correction. Phase correction is an overlooked part but it matters greatly. Take a look at my attachment, the phase of low frequencies 50-100 is a mess. After correction, the bass is tight and coherent. Moreover, once the bass is under control, there is a huge improvement in clarity and imaging of the midrange and treble.
> 
> The Trinnov Amethyst preamp is not as transparent as the Dave and so I only use it as Roon Ready transport and send digital output to HMS+Dave. I tried using REW and Sonarworks but nothing beats the Trinnov for room optimisation and it is easy to set up.


Right. And my point was that if you just look at the REW measurements and apply two parametric EQ to reduce the 50Hz wide peak and 110Hz peak by 6-8dB via Roon, you may find the music to be even more engaging with DAVE and HMS. I usually use the Q and frequency REW found but I don’t always use the exact dB amount as I try to make sure the music is still engaging.


----------



## supabayes

Yes, Roon Parametric EQ can be used to adjust down the pesky low freq bumps around 50-100. However, it does not take care of the phase issues in my room. I have a friend who was initially using Lyndorf TDAI 3400 but he later switched to using Roon EQ and approximate Convolution filter to fix the phase issue, he seems quite happy with the solution.


----------



## ecwl

supabayes said:


> Yes, Roon Parametric EQ can be used to adjust down the pesky low freq bumps around 50-100. However, it does not take care of the phase issues in my room. I have a friend who was initially using Lyndorf TDAI 3400 but he later switched to using Roon EQ and approximate Convolution filter to fix the phase issue, he seems quite happy with the solution.


Whereas my experience with convolution filters was that they seem to provide excessive DSP and rob the music of its life. That’s why I suggested just a couple of gentle bass parametric EQ to take care of the big issues. And just embrace the phase issues because there is no such thing as perfect audio?


----------



## supabayes

ecwl said:


> Whereas my experience with convolution filters was that they seem to provide excessive DSP and rob the music of its life. That’s why I suggested just a couple of gentle bass parametric EQ to take care of the big issues. And just embrace the phase issues because there is no such thing as perfect audio?



Yes, it is possible for DSP to mess up. The Trinnov just works for me with the simplicity and effectiveness. It uses a 3d mic to measure and the actual process is much easier than using REW. I have my buddies over to listen and they like it too. Just sharing my experience as few hi-fi enthusiasts are aware of the capability of the Trinnov for room optimisation. One of the reason is that the Trinnov is better known in pro audio circle (studio are using the Trinnov ST2 Pro) and cinema/home theatre (Trinnov Altitude 16/32).


----------



## MacedonianHero

Rob Watts said:


> The headphone output from the dCS website:
> 
> Headphone Outputs
> 
> ...



Wow, so many headphones are 32 ohms (like Grados) and are below their minimum threshold...not good.


----------



## racebit

Rob Watts said:


> Commercial ADC's are not very good or transparent; hence why Davina's ADC.
> 
> Davina will also allow redbook conversion to M scaled files; I plan to M scale some of my music to play back on planes with Hugo 2. Of course, its pure digital to digital transfer, so in effect I will be listening to M scaled music without carrying around an M scaler. Perhaps we may see music being re-released as 705/768 kHz M scaled...



I found just now this old but very interesting post of yours, Rob. Could you please explain why Davina can output an MScaled redbook and MScaler cannot. I didn't even imagine Davina contains a MScaler (but I am sure the MScaler contains a MScaler).
Is that because Davina has USB out and MScaler does not?
If Davina contains a Mscaler, does that mean that it samples at a smaller frequency (eg redbook) and then mscales it before putting it out?
Thanks.


----------



## iDesign (Jan 26, 2020)

ecwl said:


> Cool. I just found the Hi Fi News measurements of both DACs and DAVE measures better.
> https://www.hifinews.com/content/dcs-bartók-network-dacheadphone-amp-lab-report
> https://www.bluebirdmusic.com/edit/files/pdf_documents/chord_electronics/hfn_chord_dave_lowres.pdf


Thank you for this. What a difference a day makes. My opinion and the consensus over the past few years was that the Chord DAVE was superior to the dCS Rossini and Vivaldi. Most of those reviews pointed to their bright, fatiguing, analytical, and sterile tonal qualities (anyone can do a Google search and see all those comments and for example, Seterophile). Given that the dCS Barkók is largely based on the Rossini's DNA and the same up-sampling and digital filters, etc. etc. I have to question some of the recent Bartók impressions. The dubious flipflop of opinions is the very problem with subjective reviews that use rosy superlatives to describe hi-fi audio equipment. Something can’t summarily be _worse but better, now but not then._ So which is it? Certainly measurements don’t always tell the full story but I appreciate that Rob Watts puts the AP measurements out there which often speak for themselves. I will listen to the dCS Bartók soon and report back.


----------



## Rob Watts

racebit said:


> I found just now this old but very interesting post of yours, Rob. Could you please explain why Davina can output an MScaled redbook and MScaler cannot. I didn't even imagine Davina contains a MScaler (but I am sure the MScaler contains a MScaler).
> Is that because Davina has USB out and MScaler does not?
> If Davina contains a Mscaler, does that mean that it samples at a smaller frequency (eg redbook) and then mscales it before putting it out?
> Thanks.



Yes Davina has a USB out, and full range of digital in; so it can function as analogue>digital (768) or digital (48)>digital (768 - M scaling) or digital (768) >digital (48 decimation) - the numbers are for illustration purposes, it's not limited to those numbers.


----------



## racebit (Jul 24, 2019)

Rob Watts said:


> Yes Davina has a USB out, and full range of digital in; so it can function as analogue>digital (768) or digital (48)>digital (768 - M scaling) or digital (768) >digital (48 decimation) - the numbers are for illustration purposes, it's not limited to those numbers.



Thanks Rob.
Could you explain what is the function of a MScaler on the ADC functionality itself? I assume it has an important role for it to be included there, as we know the MScaler can induce noise on analog sections, that being the reason you chose to not integrate it in your DACs. The ADC, like the DACs has an analog section I am sure you would not want to risk potential noise unless the MScaler really has to be there.
Thanks.


----------



## Rob Watts

The intent is to only use the M scaler for digital inputs - so it's not being used when recording (a different FPGA program is used for that).


----------



## racebit

Rob Watts said:


> The intent is to only use the M scaler for digital inputs - so it's not being used when recording (a different FPGA program is used for that).



Thanks, that makes it clear.
I hope some day that digital conversion capability (or really USB out capability) can arrive to a future model of MScaler, as I am very interested in it (as many others I guess for mobile mscaled listening), but I am afraid of the cost of such a super high end device as Davina, while I don't really need the ADC function, which should be the costlier part by far.
Wish all the best with all your ongoing projects. Thanks.


----------



## Skyhawk182

Hello all.

I currently have the TT2 & HMS driving my T8000/Stax 009s

My dealer has an upgrade opportunity.  Trade in my TT2 and get a Dave.  

Has anyone done this?  Big improvement?


----------



## buzzlulu

Skyhawk182 said:


> Hello all.
> 
> I currently have the TT2 & HMS driving my T8000/Stax 009s
> 
> ...



Upgrade your T8000.
Have a look and research on the Stax threads - you will come to the same conclusion


----------



## Triode User

Skyhawk182 said:


> Hello all.
> 
> I currently have the TT2 & HMS driving my T8000/Stax 009s
> 
> ...



I am a 2 channel guy so can’t comment about your headphones but I do have TT2 and Dave with HMS and in my opinion the DaveHMS is a stunning upgrade on the TT2 HMS but only you can decide by listening I’m afraid.


----------



## George Hincapie

Triode User said:


> I am a 2 channel guy so can’t comment about your headphones but I do have TT2 and Dave with HMS and in my opinion the DaveHMS is a stunning upgrade on the TT2 HMS but only you can decide by listening I’m afraid.



What was the difference in cost? Do you feel the performance increase that you perceived justified the additional expense?


----------



## Triode User

George Hincapie said:


> What was the difference in cost? Do you feel the performance increase that you perceived justified the additional expense?



You can look up the difference in cost in whichever country you are in but yes, I thought the difference in cost here in the uk was more than repaid in the quality difference.


----------



## AndrewOld

Skyhawk182 said:


> Hello all.
> 
> I currently have the TT2 & HMS driving my T8000/Stax 009s
> 
> ...



Big difference for me what I went from a straight TT to a DAVE, but don’t know about the TT2. If your dealer is any good he will let you listen at home and make your own mind up.


----------



## George Hincapie (Jul 28, 2019)

Triode User said:


> You can look up the difference in cost in whichever country you are in but yes, I thought the difference in cost here in the uk was more than repaid in the quality difference.



Interesting. Must be some improvement. Surprising given how highly everyone speaks of the TT2. I wouldn't have though it would be that much of a difference. Not the night and day difference I would expect for the cost at least.


----------



## Triode User

George Hincapie said:


> Interesting. Must be some improvement. Surprising given how highly everyone speaks of the TT2. I wouldn't have though it would be that much of a difference. Not the night and day difference I would expect for the cost at least.



As ever it is down to the individual doing the listening and the sound that they prefer but for me that Dave transparency is in a different class compared to TT2 and that applies all the way through the frequency spectrum. I was also surprised that for me at least the Dave bass was tighter and with greater clarity of notes. So if one has the money willing and able to be spent on HiFi then the Dave is a no brainer provided that one doesn’t need or want the extra output power from the TT2. This is not to take anything away from TT2 which is a class act in itself but rather that the Dave is even better and by some margin. All IMHO and YMMV but I am pretty sure of what I hear.


----------



## odessamarin

Skyhawk182 said:


> Hello all.
> I currently have the TT2 & HMS driving my T8000/Stax 009s
> My dealer has an upgrade opportunity.  Trade in my TT2 and get a Dave.
> Has anyone done this?  Big improvement?



Here is my 5c after Dave upgrade and what I hear...
Get Dave, feed with a good source and you will reexplore all your music collection as you never heard before.


----------



## George Hincapie

Triode User said:


> As ever it is down to the individual doing the listening and the sound that they prefer but for me that Dave transparency is in a different class compared to TT2 and that applies all the way through the frequency spectrum. I was also surprised that for me at least the Dave bass was tighter and with greater clarity of notes. So if one has the money willing and able to be spent on HiFi then the Dave is a no brainer provided that one doesn’t need or want the extra output power from the TT2. This is not to take anything away from TT2 which is a class act in itself but rather that the Dave is even better and by some margin. All IMHO and YMMV but I am pretty sure of what I hear.



Very nice; glad you're happy!


----------



## Skyhawk182

Thanks alot gents. Going to bring Dave home and give it a try. Appreciate all the effort in your responses.. 

Cheers


----------



## BreadMaster

So when is this Chord Dave 2 happening?


----------



## Amberlamps

BreadMaster said:


> So when is this Chord Dave 2 happening?



As far as I'm aware, not for *atleast* a couple of years. I think Rob has been focusing on other projects at the moment ?, but, the word is, Dave is supposedly selling better now, than it ever has.

Why upgrade when it's still king ?

However, and I'm only telling you this since this is a PM, so please don't post it on the forums.

My TT2 beats it, as Rob on the QT upgraded mine just after xmas, it cost £1750 and 3 tickets to the chinese grand prix back in april.

The pcb was redesigned and now uses a different more powerful xilinx cpu, and it has more taps, but my TT2 window no longer lights up, as the new chip has a big heatsink on it and it's directly under the window, it's now similar to the mscalers window but without the engraving.

Please keep this between you and I, thanks


----------



## George Hincapie

Amberlamps said:


> As far as I'm aware, not for *atleast* a couple of years. I think Rob has been focusing on other projects at the moment ?, but, the word is, Dave is supposedly selling better now, than it ever has.
> 
> Why upgrade when it's still king ?
> 
> ...




Nice! A TT2 that sounds better than a DAVE? Amazeballs!


----------



## Amberlamps

George Hincapie said:


> Nice! A TT2 that sounds better than a DAVE? Amazeballs!



Oops, did I post this in public and in the Dave thread, damn, it was meant to be a private PM, my mistake fella's, please keep this PM and it's info to yourselves, and please don't let anyone else know.

As Rob might get into trouble from John for doing it, possibly even sacked/fired/made unemployed, so lets just keep it between us 3.

Cool.


----------



## ecwl

Oops. Sounds like a PM became a public post.
Regardless, I’ve been thinking about this a bit.
DAVE has better power supply than TT2
DAVE has better noise shaper than TT2
DAVE has 20 elements whereas as TT2 has 10 for the pulse array DAC. 
TT2 does have more power to drive headphones (or speakers)
While DAVE has more taps than TT2, if you use M-Scaler, it doesn’t matter
DAVE should in most cases sound better.
However, if you upgrade the FPGA, you could in theory improve the noise shaper and increase tap length for TT2.
But fundamentally, I am not sure if it’ll sound better than DAVE because of the power supply and more elements in the pulse array DAC.
However, I’ve been slightly worried about a DAVE 1.5. 
This is because all of Chord DACs are now on Artix7 FPGA chips except DAVE is on Spartan6.
While I doubt Rob Watts has time to significantly upgrade DAVE’s power supply or pulse array DAC (except to give it more power), upgrading the FPGA to consume less power, increase tap length and improve noise shaper may be quicker than 2 years. And if Xilinx discontinues Spartan6, Chord would need a DAVE replacement at some point.

I have never spoken to Rob Watts about these issues but I suspect a few forum members had. Ignorance is bliss. Just like I suspect in some circumstances and setup, HMS sounds better than my Blu2. I’ll upgrade when I’m ready. Technology marches on. C’est la vie. I’m still deeply moved by the music I’m hearing right now as I type this.


----------



## Amberlamps

ecwl said:


> Oops. Sounds like a PM became a public post.
> Regardless, I’ve been thinking about this a bit.
> DAVE has better power supply than TT2
> DAVE has better noise shaper than TT2
> ...



I forgot, my upgraded TT2 is powered solely by internal batteries, all 6 of them, and it can also be used with the supplied linear psu which uses a thunderbolt bolt port to charge the batteries, or to run it in desktop mode. Similar to Hugo 2.


----------



## iDesign (Jul 29, 2019)

Amberlamps said:


> Why upgrade when it's still king ?


In all seriousness the DAVE is king and a rare example of near perfect workmanship. It is the kind of product that will become a timeless classic no matter what comes after it (e.g. McLaren F1). There are few products like the DAVE that completely changed the game and set new standards in the high-end Hi/Head-Fi arena. Consider for a moment the DAVE was released 1,537 days ago and how far ahead of other DACs it _still_ is. Rob Watts may as well have released the DAVE and taken a several year vacation but he instead continued working hard to develop new products with lower costs to democratize the DAVE's technology. Impressive.


----------



## audio_1

iDesign said:


> In all seriousness the DAVE is king and a rare example of near perfect workmanship. It is the kind of product that will become a timeless classic no matter what comes after it (e.g. McLaren F1). There are few products like the DAVE that completely changed the game and set new standards in the high-end Hi/Head-Fi arena. Consider for a moment the DAVE was released 1,537 days ago and how far ahead of other DACs it _still_ is. Rob Watts may as well have released the DAVE and taken a several year vacation but he instead continued working hard to develop new products with lower costs to democratize the DAVE's technology. Impressive.



It is great when someone posts an appreciation for the technology and the genius of Rob Watts that has gone into the design of his DACs, especially the Dave and Mscaler / Blu 2. It annoys me when people post about other high end DACs that they assume to be better as they are more expensive but don't really compare in terms of sound quality or technology. Some aspects of the designs and real build quality of these DACs where it matters are questionable imho.


----------



## STR-1

Rob was very clear in answering questions at the CanJam London seminar he gave on Saturday that there was no chance of DAVE 2 over the next two years.  But he is working on other projects for Chord, which he says keep putting back progress on Davina.  He does expect some progress with Davina soon.


----------



## miketlse

STR-1 said:


> Rob was very clear in answering questions at the CanJam London seminar he gave on Saturday that there was no chance of DAVE 2 over the next two years.  But he is working on other projects for Chord, which he says keep putting back progress on Davina.  He does expect some progress with Davina soon.


Interesting feedback.
I have sometimes floated the question as to how one could improve the DAVE.
I could only envisage minor tweaks such as increase the power output to match TT2, and enhance the RFI filtering so that it is not a problem with newer equipment such as MScaler.
Otherwise, DAVE is doing a good job by most posts, so why try and change something that is already working.


----------



## Clive101 (Jul 29, 2019)

This week my Dave is two years old and as usual I needed to by Dave a birthday present...….
Last year it was a Mscaler, and Dave was very excited when he opened the second package which were the Wave Cables as an accessory.
This year I wondered what Dave may like it was a very high bar to match...…. so a recent visit to CamJam London 2019 produced this...…
Sorry @Rob Watts I have compromised your transparency and wonderful DAC but I could not resist sorry.
Dave needed a birthday present perhaps not quite a match to equal a Mscaler with the Wave Cables but ……


----------



## Triode User

STR-1 said:


> Rob was very clear in answering questions at the CanJam London seminar he gave on Saturday that there was no chance of DAVE 2 over the next two years.  But he is working on other projects for Chord, which he says keep putting back progress on Davina.  He does expect some progress with Davina soon.



That is exactly what Rob has been saying in here to anyone who would listen and I am not at all surprised. Dave is so far ahead of the game that there is no need to even think about a need for Dave2. I personally would rather RW looks at his other digital projects so he can confound us once more and find other ways to lighten our wallets! 

I suspect a few Dave owners traded in to get TT2 and Mscaler and I wouldn't be surprised if they traded once more to get a Dave again to go with their Mscalers . . . . . . . . .


----------



## ray-dude

When I auditioned the TT2 (with mScaler), I was eager to have it be good enough to trade out my DAVE (just to have the flexibility of more power output).  Took all of 30 seconds to realize (alas) my DAVE wasn't going anywhere.

As for DAVE Next, my wishlist (in priority order) is for:

* A world class external power supply, or the ability to connect a world class external power supply (there is no DAC on the planet that doesn't get better with better ground and better reference voltage)
* More power output (a la TT2)
* An externally configurable digital equalizer that doesn't degrade that amazing transparency (digital room correction, tuning response curves for touchy headphones and speakers, etc...bonus points if each output can have its own transfer function....digital cross over time!)
* 32 PE arrays on the output (assuming that makes a big difference in depth resolution vs the current 20...only Rob knows where the point of diminishing returns is)
* A built in optical variant of DX with enough bandwidth to cover the full 16fs, ideally with a range of at least 20m (put all the digital goodies in a server room, get full isolation at the DAC), or i2s with some sort of optical isolation
* Some sort of analog home theatre pass thru so the output of my surround setup can get passed to my 2 channel speakers

No matter what DAVE Next turns out to be, I'll be ordering one on day one.


----------



## Amberlamps (Jul 29, 2019)

ray-dude said:


> When I auditioned the TT2 (with mScaler), I was eager to have it be good enough to trade out my DAVE (just to have the flexibility of more power output).  Took all of 30 seconds to realize (alas) my DAVE wasn't going anywhere.
> 
> As for DAVE Next, my wishlist (in priority order) is for:
> 
> ...




This must be the In-denial Dave owner's thread.

I know, it's hard, but with time your denial will become less and less and you all will begin to accept that £4000, really can be better than £8500.





TT2 > Dave, well, atleast my one is, cheers rob


----------



## Triode User

Amberlamps said:


> This must be the In-denial Dave owner's thread.
> 
> I know, it's hard, but with time your denial will become less and less and you will begin to accept that £4000, really can be better than £8500.
> 
> ...



Wind up merchant with your warped sense of humour and hiding text in your post!


----------



## Amberlamps

Triode User said:


> Wind up merchant with your warped sense of humour and hiding text in your post!





It's close though.


----------



## George Hincapie

Clive101 said:


> This week my Dave is two years old and as usual I needed to by Dave a birthday present...….
> Last year it was a Mscaler, and Dave was very excited when he opened the second package which were the Wave Cables as an accessory.
> This year I wondered what Dave may like it was a very high bar to match...…. so a recent visit to CamJam London 2019 produced this...…
> Sorry @Rob Watts I have compromised your transparency and wonderful DAC but I could not resist sorry.
> Dave needed a birthday present perhaps not quite a match to equal a Mscaler with the Wave Cables but ……



What is it? A Dalek? Are we in danger?!


----------



## adyc

miketlse said:


> Interesting feedback.
> I have sometimes floated the question as to how one could improve the DAVE.
> I could only envisage minor tweaks such as increase the power output to match TT2, and enhance the RFI filtering so that it is not a problem with newer equipment such as MScaler.
> Otherwise, DAVE is doing a good job by most posts, so why try and change something that is already working.



Dump the dual coaxial links and change to optical. Coaxial is RF hotbed.


----------



## racebit

adyc said:


> Dump the dual coaxial links and change to optical. Coaxial is RF hotbed.


You beat me by a few seconds...

The only thing I would really want on next DAVE is 768K optical input. Everything else is fine as is to me. USB and BNCs are the devil to me.
That could be really DAVE 1.1, and that alternate port could even be developed by someone else under Rob guidance, to free Rob for the things that only he can do (eg Davina, DX amps, 2MScaler, etc). Working on an advanced optical port may be a waste of Rob time here on earth


----------



## iDesign

Triode User said:


> That is exactly what Rob has been saying in here to anyone who would listen and I am not at all surprised. Dave is so far ahead of the game that there is no need to even think about a need for Dave2. I personally would rather RW looks at his other digital projects so he can confound us once more and find other ways to lighten our wallets!


Agreed. The DAVE isn't an iPhone that was designed with planned obsolescence and needs to be updated annually with trivial features to stay relevant. Spare me the wishlists.


----------



## llamaluv (Aug 3, 2019)

I'm looking for a high quality programmable remote to replace the DAVE's, which I dislike very much.

Ideally, it would be made of metal and consist of just two large buttons. Naturally, this is too much to ask. But anything that is compact, sturdy (and not 100% plastic), has less than 200 buttons and does not look mega-nerdy would be worth considering, just to get away from the stock remote.

Any suggestions?


----------



## AndrewOld (Aug 4, 2019)

llamaluv said:


> I'm looking for a high quality programmable remote to replace the DAVE's, which I dislike very much.
> 
> Ideally, it would be made of metal and consist of just two large buttons. Naturally, this is too much to ask. But anything that is compact, sturdy (and not 100% plastic), has less than 200 buttons and does not look mega-nerdy would be worth considering, just to get away from the stock remote.
> 
> Any suggestions?



Ask them for the small remote. I got mine free.  It is small and has far fewer buttons, and they all do something useful - Volume up and down, next/previous input, mute, on/off. Still  plastic though. The big remote that came with the DAVE originally did indeed let the product down - most of the buttons had no useful function, and it was annoying in particular that there was no way of directly selecting an input. Nor of controlling an M Scaler. Perhaps because listening with headphones is a big part of Chords market they don’t appreciate the value of a remote control, so we are stuck with an afterthought.


----------



## llamaluv

AndrewOld said:


> Ask them for the small remote. I got mine free.  It is small and has far fewer buttons, and they all do something useful - Volume up and down, next/previous input, mute, on/off. Still  plastic though. The big remote that came with the DAVE originally did indeed let the product down - most of the buttons had no useful function, and it was annoying in particular that there was no way of directly selecting an input. Nor of controlling an M Scaler. Perhaps because listening with headphones is a big part of Chords market they don’t appreciate the value of a remote control, so we are stuck with an afterthought.


Ah, I am talking about the newer, smaller remote, although I can see now based on what I had originally wrote why you might have assumed I was referring to the larger one with the vestigial buttons.


----------



## tunes

TheAttorney said:


> Hmm.. I may need to reset expectations a bit lower: This is an update to some old DAVE vibration control posts. Now to include the HMS.
> 
> I find it hard to understand why hewn-from-rock products like DAVE or HMS could benefit from vibration control. They have thick enclosures, no moving parts, no large transformers, and I don't have loudspeakers to excite the room foundations.
> So what is there left to vibrate? I don't know, but I've found that tweaks in this area can make incremental improvements, albeit in infuriatingly unpredicable ways. Price is no guarantee to success.
> ...


How do you put DAVE in standby mode??


----------



## MacedonianHero

tunes said:


> How do you put DAVE in standby mode??



Just turn it off via the remote. That will put it in Standby mode. The switch on the back shuts it off completely.


----------



## ray-dude

TheAttorney said:


> Hmm.. I may need to reset expectations a bit lower: This is an update to some old DAVE vibration control posts. Now to include the HMS.



FWIW, I recently added some Ingress Audio Level 3 rollerball isolation cups to my DAVE. (See http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm for Barry Diament’s original write up)

 I already had a Acoustic Revive TB-38H stand and Black Ravioli pads, so I was expecting a very minor to negligible SQ change by adding some horizontal vibration isolation.

I was absolutely shocked. This was one of the biggest SQ impacts I’ve ever heard in my system. When the audio group was over, much startled cussing was heard (What?!?) after I put the isolation bowls in.

I can’t say how unique the positive impact is to my set up (need to experiment in a couple other setups to say), but now I am a true believer in mechanical isolation (holy crap!!)

MUCH more experimentation to come.   

For other Dave owners, a quickie experiment with marbles and porcelain dishes may be worthwhile to see if it is worth your while to invest in some custom machined bowls (Id love to hear what your hear)


----------



## TheAttorney (Aug 7, 2019)

ray-dude said:


> FWIW, I recently added some Ingress Audio Level 3 rollerball isolation cups to my DAVE
> 
> .... MUCH more experimentation to come.



I'd be interested to see how you get on with the further experimentation - I think there is a whole world of possibilities. I expect the success of any footer design to be highly affected by the surface it is resting on.

Sounds like the Ingres rollerballs can outperform the Black Ravilolis, but I won't be rushing out to buy the rollerballs just yet - a 2-piece solution that includes a ball bearing is the sort of thing that will go wrong in my household, especially when I'm often moving stuff around my hifi rack. I can just imagine a ball bearing shooting off across the floor and rolling under the heaviest piece of furniture in my room (this sort of thing really does happen to me).

The Ingres designer reckons the (low frequency) vibrations, that his rollerballs are trying to reduce, are caused by earth itself (transmitting both natural and man-made vibrations). Which may or may not be true - it's not really something that can easily be verified either way. But it does attempt to answer my earlier question of what is the source of vibration that that impacts SQ in DAVE and similar products?


----------



## tunes

TheAttorney said:


> I'd be interested to see how you get on with the further experimentation - I think there is a whole world of possibilities. I expect the success of any footer design to be highly affected by the surface it is resting on.
> 
> Sounds like the Ingres rollerballs can outperform the Black Ravilolis, but I won't be rushing out to buy the rollerballs just yet - a 2-piece solution that includes a ball bearing is the sort of thing that will go wrong in my household, especially when I'm often moving stuff around my hifi rack. I can just imagine a ball bearing shooting off across the floor and rolling under the heaviest piece of furniture in my room (this sort of thing really does happen to me).
> 
> The Ingres designer reckons the (low frequency) vibrations, that his rollerballs are trying to reduce, are caused by earth itself (transmitting both natural and man-made vibrations). Which may or may not be true - it's not really something that can easily be verified either way. But it does attempt to answer my earlier question of what is the source of vibration that that impacts SQ in DAVE and similar products?


Is any vibration discussion relevant to headphone only users?  The vibration from leakage of sound via headphones can’t really have a major impact on DAVE’s SQ could it?


----------



## HeeBroG

[SIZE=14px said:
			
		

> The Ingres designer reckons the (low frequency) vibrations, that his rollerballs are trying to reduce, are caused by earth itself (transmitting both natural and man-made vibrations). Which may or may not be true - it's not really something that can easily be verified either way. But it does attempt to answer my earlier question of what is the source of vibration that that impacts SQ in DAVE and similar products?


[/SIZE]

The Townshend Seismic Isolation products purport to do the same thing. They have one product that can work with existing racks. http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi...-isolation/seismic-isolation-support-corners/. I got the Seismic Pods which are a bit cheaper for my subs and speakers to good effect. I use the older version of Solid Tech Feet of Silence for DAVE/BLU2 with rubber O-rings rather than the newer ones with metal springs but I think the principle is the same; 3 dimensional freedom of movement.


----------



## HeeBroG

tunes said:


> Is any vibration discussion relevant to headphone only users?  The vibration from leakage of sound via headphones can’t really have a major impact on DAVE’s SQ could it?



I think the vibration is natural seismic activity and not related to the music playing out loud so yes; it can work with headphones only systems as well. Always try before purchase as all systems are different. Perhaps they are more effective in places like San Francisco


----------



## onlychild

ray-dude said:


> FWIW, I recently added some Ingress Audio Level 3 rollerball isolation cups to my DAVE. (See http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm for Barry Diament’s original write up)
> 
> I already had a Acoustic Revive TB-38H stand and Black Ravioli pads, so I was expecting a very minor to negligible SQ change by adding some horizontal vibration isolation.
> 
> ...



Your timing couldn’t be better Ray.  Vibration control was the next thing on my list to tackle.  Any chance you are using the Lvl3’s with you Dave on the Chord Choral stand?   Pics if possible?

I don’t think they will work with the stand.


----------



## TheAttorney

tunes said:


> Is any vibration discussion relevant to headphone only users?  The vibration from leakage of sound via headphones can’t really have a major impact on DAVE’s SQ could it?



Yes, it is very relevant to headphones users. As I said in my earlier post, I'm a headphones-only HMS/DAVE user, so the usual explanation "it must be the loudspeakers" does not apply.
AC mains and transformers can and do cause vibration, but HMS has a DC input, so it's not that.
Individual components can themselves vibrate - e.g. my battery powered laptop's motherboard buzzes when under higher loads - presumably it's the CPU.

So "mother earth" is as good/daft an explantion as anything else - low level vibrations do transmit readily through solild building structures, but even so, it's still a mystery to me why such low levels could possibly impact the SQ of hifi components.  

I think sound leakage from headphones is even less plausable than mother earth - it couldn't possibly be the headphones


----------



## Deano1974 (Aug 8, 2019)

Ray-dude can you take some photos of the balls and cups please, would like to see them and where you position them also please

Cheers

Deano


----------



## ray-dude




----------



## miketlse

3 years old but relevant to your discussions. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-306#post-12845536


----------



## Deano1974

ray-dude said:


>


Awesome thank you, where did you get the silver cups from


----------



## ray-dude

Deano1974 said:


> Awesome thank you, where did you get the silver cups from



I got mine from Michael at Ingress Audio:
http://www.ingress-engineering.ca/products-and-services.php

there are many options for this sort of thing (including DIY options, like described in the Barry Diament article). If you go the DIY route and hear a big lift, easier to justify getting some custom machined stuff like Michael offers


----------



## iDesign (Aug 9, 2019)

The subject of isolation is curious. For example, one member in this thread experimented with low and high-cost isolation devices and boasted about audible improvements. The same member later switched to the Chord Ensemble stands and remarked he couldn't hear any difference between them and his previous isolation platform. So which is it? The Ensemble stands were designed for stacking and aesthetics but not to address vibration (hence why there is no mention of vibration or isolation on the Chord website). Draw your own conclusions about the effectiveness of isolation products.


----------



## BallisticGT3

I had the opportunity to audition the Quadraspire QPLUS Reference Supports installed underneath a DAVE at a recent UK HiFi show. I was so impressed with the difference that they made (improved sound stage, more detail and better defined bass) that I've decided to go the whole hog and ordered an X-Reference HiFi rack.
https://quadraspire.co.uk/hifi-supports.html


----------



## Arcabonne

BallisticGT3 said:


> I had the opportunity to audition the Quadraspire QPLUS Reference Supports installed underneath a DAVE at a recent UK HiFi show. I was so impressed with the difference that they made (improved sound stage, more detail and better defined bass) that I've decided to go the whole hog and ordered an X-Reference HiFi rack.
> https://quadraspire.co.uk/hifi-supports.html



I agree; I have Quadraspire QPLUS Advanced under Dave and Blu and the difference is felt.


----------



## naynay

nikhilthemeal said:


> Quick question to anyone who has experience. Do power cables make a significant difference with the Dave? Currently eyeing a Naim Powerline or Siltech Ruby Mountain II



Not sure if you have made a purchase on a cable yet but the SHUNYATA  are highly rated by a few Dave owners but at a cost.
They have recently released the new SHUNYATA VENOM NR-V12 & NR-V10 at a more affordable price which may be worth a look?


----------



## ubs28

Does the Mscalar introduce latency?

I use the Chord Dave in combination with my TV (as it provides streaming functionality for the Chord Dave for free basically) via optical.

It would be a waste if the Chord Dave would strictly be useful for only streaming music if the Mscalar introduces latency.

I still have a Mscalar on order for more than 1 year, but I am really close to cancel it.


----------



## ecwl

ubs28 said:


> Does the Mscalar introduce latency?
> I use the Chord Dave in combination with my TV (as it provides streaming functionality for the Chord Dave for free basically) via optical.


Short answer is yes, M-Scaler introduces latency BUT don’t cancel your order.
I was just watching TV and movies last night with Blu2 (so basically M-scaler)
There is a video mode in M-Scaler which gives you 2/3 million tap which is minimum phase so that the audio latency is similar to DAVE. So if you’re watching TV with DAVE, you can use the video mode of the M-Scaler and continue to watch TV. I can tell you that the 2/3 million taps video mode is far superior than DAVE’s 164000 taps.
For music, you can switch back to 1 million taps.


----------



## TheAttorney

naynay said:


> Not sure if you have made a purchase on a cable yet but the SHUNYATA  are highly rated by a few Dave owners but at a cost.



Yes, a new power cord is the final stage of my DAVE-based upgrade plan, and Shunyata are top of my list, but I'm also interested in the Synergistic Research Blue HC. 
Has anyone directly compared these two? The Blue is priced broadly the same as the Shunyata Delta NR, and I can't find find any UK dealer that stocks both.


----------



## rkt31

TheAttorney said:


> Yes, a new power cord is the final stage of my DAVE-based upgrade plan, and Shunyata are top of my list, but I'm also interested in the Synergistic Research Blue HC.
> Has anyone directly compared these two? The Blue is priced broadly the same as the Shunyata Delta NR, and I can't find find any UK dealer that stocks both.


When furutech and Mitsubishi collaborate this results in . http://www.furutech.com/2017/05/10/14783/   this is world's purest copper power cable. Nothing on this planet beats it. Only thing is to get hold of this bulk cable.


----------



## Triode User

rkt31 said:


> When furutech and Mitsubishi collaborate this results in . http://www.furutech.com/2017/05/10/14783/   this is world's purest copper power cable. Nothing on this planet beats it. Only thing is to get hold of this bulk cable.



but don't forget to give due regard to Rob Watts first paragraph in his post here on the TT2 thread . . . . . .

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hug...official-thread.879425/page-420#post-15106660


----------



## rkt31

Triode User said:


> but don't forget to give due regard to Rob Watts first paragraph in his post here on the TT2 thread . . . . . .
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hug...official-thread.879425/page-420#post-15106660


You are right. Power cord matters not much to Dave imho. Instead it should more with power amp. I am using furutech fp-32N bulk cable power cord with ahb2 power amp and it did make a difference.


----------



## STR-1

TheAttorney said:


> Yes, a new power cord is the final stage of my DAVE-based upgrade plan, and Shunyata are top of my list, but I'm also interested in the Synergistic Research Blue HC.
> Has anyone directly compared these two? The Blue is priced broadly the same as the Shunyata Delta NR, and I can't find find any UK dealer that stocks both.


The Delta NR is a fine cable for the price but if you can stretch to it also try the Alpha NR.  I’m not sure where you are located but KJ West One in London have loaned me several Shunyata power cables over the last year.


----------



## Jiffi32 (Aug 11, 2019)

rkt31 said:


> When furutech and Mitsubishi collaborate this results in . http://www.furutech.com/2017/05/10/14783/   this is world's purest copper power cable. Nothing on this planet beats it. Only thing is to get hold of this bulk cable.



I'm using future FPS4 on Dave and Blu2 it makes an appreciable improvement. I bought bulk cable and made up my own. Currently  saving for NCF plugs


----------



## Aslshark

I switched the other day my Nordost Magus powercord installed in Dave with a Nordost Brahma with Furutech-contacts. I hear (or think I hear) a very significant increase in dynamics and definition of instruments. This is in my two-speaker system. Currently enjoying Brand X “unorthodox behavior” (cd) with some magnificent drumming by Phil Collins.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

In my experience high quality power cables do make a difference not least in their rejection of RFI and dynamic improvements. However, given a choice of either/or I would put my money into High Quality HIFI Fuses and a decent Grounding Block first. Better SQ per buck in my experience.


----------



## GryphonGuy

TheAttorney said:


> Yes, a new power cord is the final stage of my DAVE-based upgrade plan, and Shunyata are top of my list, but I'm also interested in the Synergistic Research Blue HC.
> Has anyone directly compared these two? The Blue is priced broadly the same as the Shunyata Delta NR, and I can't find find any UK dealer that stocks both.



I auditioned Venom, Alpha and Sigma (the only cables a few years ago). There is an easily heard difference between the product lines with the Sigma being the most satisfying difference. Originally I had just the power cables used on an online double-conversion UPS and had some lumpiness in the audio spectrum. HOWEVER when paired with the Shunyata power distributors (Hydra and Denali) the cables create a synergy. I personally use the Denali distributor and Sigma cables. The DAVE and its source "train" on this power combo is so pure and clean that the instrument timbres and transients can sound real.

Of course YMMV.

Regards
GG


----------



## koven

A while back I did an in-home demo of two $2K power cables (AQ Hurricane / Shunyata Sigma) and neither sounded better than a $200 Oyaide (Black Mamba). I have stuck w/ Oyaide cables since.


----------



## rkt31

koven said:


> A while back I did an in-home demo of two $2K power cables (AQ Hurricane / Shunyata Sigma) and neither sounded better than a $200 Oyaide (Black Mamba). I have stuck w/ Oyaide cables since.


Oyaide, mogami and furutech are the few which use pcocc or more purity base cable in their products. It's the purity of copper which is main contributing factor for sq and not fancy jacketing, fancy box etc.


----------



## TheAttorney

Triode User said:


> but don't forget to give due regard to Rob Watts first paragraph in his post here on the TT2 thread . . . . . .
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hug...official-thread.879425/page-420#post-15106660



I always give due regard to Rob's comments, and many times I agree - but if at any point  my ears disagree with his consclusions, then my ears will always win the argument .
Also, it's not only the Chord component itself that can be impacted by its power supply - it's all the other components in the system. As was demonstrated at the romaz meet a while back.


----------



## EuropeanEar

DaveRedRef-III said:


> In my experience high quality power cables do make a difference not least in their rejection of RFI and dynamic improvements.



Same experience here.


----------



## EuropeanEar

TheAttorney said:


> ...it's not only the Chord component itself that can be impacted by its power supply - it's all the other components in the system. As was demonstrated at the romaz meet a while back.


100% agreed.  Noise will somehow find its way to get into your system.  No matter what a great DAC you have, it still benefits from power conditioning and/or quality power cables.  At least this was my conclusion after using Schiit Yggdrasil for years and Peachtree Audio DACs prior to that.  Even a $800-1,000 power distributor made a significant difference in SQ.


----------



## Matez

Jiffi32 said:


> I'm using future FPS4 on Dave and Blu2 it makes an appreciable improvement. I bought bulk cable and made up my own. Currently saving for NCF plugs



All I can say is that power cables do in my setup more than ICs for example. NCFs are said to be the best ones there are and I'll have to give them a try at some point too.


----------



## naynay

STR-1 said:


> The Delta NR is a fine cable for the price but if you can stretch to it also try the Alpha NR.  I’m not sure where you are located but KJ West One in London have loaned me several Shunyata power cables over the last year.



I have just tried the newer lower priced Shunyata power cable purchased from KJ West One but had to return it as the fit in the power inlet of my Dave was a little loose the cable would keep dropping it wouldn't keep at 90 degrees so it would cause the power to fluctuate.

How did you find the fit of the Shunyata cable you tried as i may have just had a faulty kettle socket on the one i had?


----------



## STR-1

naynay said:


> I have just tried the newer lower priced Shunyata power cable purchased from KJ West One but had to return it as the fit in the power inlet of my Dave was a little loose the cable would keep dropping it wouldn't keep at 90 degrees so it would cause the power to fluctuate.
> 
> How did you find the fit of the Shunyata cable you tried as i may have just had a faulty kettle socket on the one i had?


Actually, I did have to have the power socket (and entire power supply) replaced under warranty on my DAVE quite recently.  I was experiencing increasing difficulty getting the power rocker switch to properly engage power.  It sometimes took several attempts to get DAVE to power up and you could often hear fizzing from the switch as it tried to engage power.  The report back from Chord after they did the replacement was that the mains filter was not working properly and that in these instances they replace the entire power supply as a matter of course.  It is working fine now with a Shunyata Alpha NR, which has an area of shelf to rest on behind the DAVE so as not to put strain on the socket.


----------



## Thenewguy007 (Aug 14, 2019)

naynay said:


> I have just tried the newer lower priced Shunyata power cable purchased from KJ West One but had to return it as the fit in the power inlet of my Dave was a little loose the cable would keep dropping it wouldn't keep at 90 degrees so it would cause the power to fluctuate.
> 
> How did you find the fit of the Shunyata cable you tried as i may have just had a faulty kettle socket on the one i had?



You can use this






https://www.aliexpress.com/item/329...8.0&pvid=98fd5266-89a0-431c-bc03-3beb49cc2a06


Also Furutech sells more expensive cable holders


----------



## naynay (Aug 14, 2019)

Thenewguy007 said:


> You can use this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That would have solved my problem, i should have posted my question before returning the cable.


----------



## rkt31

Heavy power cables put a lot of stress on the power socket. I use a small rubber block made by stacking rubber erasers below the power plug of my amp.


----------



## Musikfan

Thenewguy007 said:


> You can use this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi, there are various sizes listed on aliexpress in mm..are the different sizes to accommodate the width of different power cord plugs or for the height of the absorber pad?  How do you know the size to order. Sorry for the dumb questions.  Thanks for any advice.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Musikfan said:


> Hi, there are various sizes listed on aliexpress in mm..are the different sizes to accommodate the width of different power cord plugs or for the height of the absorber pad?  How do you know the size to order. Sorry for the dumb questions.  Thanks for any advice.



It's just for height. If you are using 3rd party footers & it raises the DAC a few inches, you can order one of the taller ones
I believe it is measured from the ground to the bottom of the power cable barrel. So the smallest one they sell is is 21 millimeters tall from the bottom to the top & you can also adjust it higher up to 28mm.

Here is the pic for the different sizes
https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1OcRMXiLrK1Rjy1zdq6ynnpXah.jpg


----------



## Musikfan

Thenewguy007 said:


> It's just for height. If you are using 3rd party footers & it raises the DAC a few inches, you can order one of the taller ones
> I believe it is measured from the ground to the bottom of the power cable barrel. So the smallest one they sell is is 21 millimeters tall from the bottom to the top & you can also adjust it higher up to 28mm.
> 
> Here is the pic for the different sizes
> https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1OcRMXiLrK1Rjy1zdq6ynnpXah.jpg


Hi, thanks very much, very helpful... Regards.


----------



## Matez

Thenewguy007 said:


> Also Furutech sells more expensive cable holders



Yeah, NCF Booster or something. Looks good and probably useful with thick and heavy plugs, but is way too expensive for me.


----------



## Deano1974

ray-dude said:


>


I have just used a similar set up as Ray Dude and can say that this system for isolation works extremely well, everything becomes tighter and much fuller, I don't have ceramic or stainless balls yet, I am using marbles,

Will order some ceramic b

 all bearings and see what difference they make 

But a big thank you to Ray dude for sharing this idea


----------



## STR-1

Another tour de force review from Audio Bacon, this time focussing on twenty-seven power cables.  He highlights the DAVE as a non-amplifier device that does tend to take on the character of the power cable tried with it.

https://audiobacon.net/2019/08/17/27-audiophile-power-cables-reviewed/


----------



## rkt31

https://audiobacon.net/2019/08/17/2...1Ewe1WSFrglgFKwnXSDfxFbtzFJtsMCZlQy5xhPjqWRR4 as expected furutech dps4 is one of the top performers at almost 1/6 th price of most expensive ones.


----------



## ray-dude

Deano1974 said:


> I have just used a similar set up as Ray Dude and can say that this system for isolation works extremely well, everything becomes tighter and much fuller, I don't have ceramic or stainless balls yet, I am using marbles,
> 
> Will order some ceramic b all bearings and see what difference they make
> 
> But a big thank you to Ray dude for sharing this idea



I’m finding that the harder the material and the more spherical the better. The idea seems to be to have as little friction horizontally as you can

i currently have grade 25 tungsten carbide, and they are a clear step up from chrome steel. 

my next step is to try things in a “sandwich” configuration, with a bowl below and above the bearing. That would give two ultra smooth surfaces for the bearing to move across. 

I continue to be surprised by how effective this setup is in my room. Completely unexpected.


----------



## Harty

ray-dude said:


> I’m finding that the harder the material and the more spherical the better. The idea seems to be to have as little friction horizontally as you can
> 
> i currently have grade 25 tungsten carbide, and they are a clear step up from chrome steel.
> 
> ...



I bought Cera-Discs from Kridon at Plinth Design in the UK, you get four Stainless Steel Cera-Discs including 12 ceramic bearing balls, 3 per Cera Disc: *£148* plus delivery. 
These are heavy. Height 27mm Diameter 50mm. or you can get one larger Ceramic bearing ball bearing per Cera Disc for use in the centre hole only, instead of three smaller, I have mine with the three Ceramic balls as shown in the picture, I also use mine without the Nitrile rubber o rings, three under each component.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cera-Dis...834027?hash=item2160325cab:g:GLoAAOSwPVFcVuYU

https://www.plinth-design.com/ Scroll to very bottom of page for Cera Disc info.

He also does a bigger Cera-Disc 12 with 12 Ceramic Bearing Balls, I think these are £125 each, he says these Cera Disc 12 are better on top of the chassis of components.


----------



## HeeBroG

Harty said:


> I bought Cera-Discs from Kridon at Plinth Design in the UK, you get four Stainless Steel Cera-Discs including 12 ceramic bearing balls, 3 per Cera Disc: *£148* plus delivery.
> These are heavy. Height 27mm Diameter 50mm. or you can get one larger Ceramic bearing ball bearing per Cera Disc for use in the centre hole only, instead of three smaller, I have mine with the three Ceramic balls as shown in the picture, I also use mine without the Nitrile rubber o rings, three under each component.
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cera-Dis...834027?hash=item2160325cab:g:GLoAAOSwPVFcVuYU
> ...



Hi Harty,

I think the plinth-design supports work with a different principle as the ceramic balls are fixed in their recesses and not free to roll in a concave platform to allow energy dissipation.

Geoff


----------



## Harty

Hi Geoff,

I prefer the Cera-Discs due to them being a bit more stable, the stillpoints dissipate energy, but they're very pricey, so some of the ones mentioned in this thread might be a cheaper alternative to the stillpoints.

Best wishes,
Paul.


----------



## wswbd

Harty said:


> Hi Geoff,
> 
> I prefer the Cera-Discs due to them being a bit more stable, the stillpoints dissipate energy, but they're very pricey, so some of the ones mentioned in this thread might be a cheaper alternative to the stillpoints.
> 
> ...


Could you elaborate the sound improvement using these disks on Dave?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

rkt31 said:


> https://audiobacon.net/2019/08/17/2...1Ewe1WSFrglgFKwnXSDfxFbtzFJtsMCZlQy5xhPjqWRR4 as expected furutech dps4 is one of the top performers at almost 1/6 th price of most expensive ones.




That price is just for the cable. Add the top quality connectors at both ends and it will cost nearer £1,200 which imo is still very good for the quality described in the review.


----------



## Harty

wswbd said:


> Could you elaborate the sound improvement using these disks on Dave?



I would say that the Cera Disc's are just below the stillpoints ultra mini in performance, clearing up all the frequencies a nice bit, everything is just purer and cleaner sounding, but a lot cheaper, so if your on a budget and can't afford the Stillpoints Ultra Mini's, then the Cera Disc's would make a good choice, as well as what other suggestions have been mentioned, just letting people know that something like this exist, as they are hard to find with no advertising.  pursuit Perfect System on youtube shows and explains these in a few of his video's, type Cera-Disc on his channel search box.

Best wishes,
Paul


----------



## Thenewguy007

Harty said:


> pursuit Perfect System on youtube shows and explains these in a few of his video's, type Cera-Disc on his channel search box.



Pretty sure Pursuit Perfect Systems is a dealer who sells all those products.
Isolation feet are a dime a dozen, from cheap (herbie's audio) to some boutique ones that go for $1,000s.


----------



## naynay

I do remember him saying that he had some input on the design of the Cera-Disc?


----------



## marhol

Couple of weeks with DAVE and I have to say I´m really impressed with this DAC/amp/preamp. I feel that all superlatives have already been mentioned but still  I would like to express it definitely met my high expectations based on head fi and other online forums. What I like most on DAVE is (regarding SQ) probably its neutrality, transparency, dynamics and and overall purity of sound which is free from digital artifacts. These qualities probably contribute the most to the perceived "musicality" and " analougeness" of DAVE presentation. I also like the design and compact size of this device.  Listening to music via my Dynaudio Focus 110 A active speakers or HE1000 V2 headphones is an event !
I am positively surprised that sibilant recordings are more listenable via DAVE than via iBasso DX90. I thought DAVE would be even more ruthless than DX90. And fortunately
thats not the case. While not as forgiving as Lumin A1 (my previous DAC) DAVE to my ears sounds very organic, smooth(even analogue with some recordings) and at the same time true to the source. 
 Thats a remarkable achievement. 
Thank you all for your impressions and contributions to this thread.It has been really helpful and enjoyable to read !
I have just one question: is it possible to use iBasso DX90 as a transport with DAVE ? I know some people successfully use DX90 with Chord Hugo (1 and 2) via coaxial out but DAVE does not have coaxial inputs... Is there any possibility to connect DX90, or mobile phone (e.g. Samsung) with DAVE ? 
Thx, best regards Martin


----------



## JaZZ

marhol said:


> I have just one question: is it possible to use iBasso DX90 as a transport with DAVE ? I know some people successfully use DX90 with Chord Hugo (1 and 2) via coaxial out but DAVE does not have coaxial inputs... Is there any possibility to connect DX90, or mobile phone (e.g. Samsung) with DAVE?


Hi Martin

Yes, you need a digital cable (ideally 75 Ω) with a 3.5 mm coaxial plug at one end and a BNC plug at the other end. Alternatively an RCA plug instead of the BNC plug with an RCA/BNC adapter.


----------



## ecwl

marhol said:


> Is there any possibility to connect DX90, or mobile phone (e.g. Samsung) with DAVE ?
> Thx, best regards Martin


Sure. when I bring my DAVE to our local Head-Fi meet, I just connect my iPad (or iPhone) to DAVE using the Lightning to USB adaptor and a regular USB cable. And then I just play streaming lossless music from Tidal. You should have no problems doing the same from Samsung to DAVE with the correct adaptor. What I am not familiar with is how Android controls sample rates for music playback in order to get bit-perfect playback...


----------



## marhol

Thank you for your replies ! I hoped some cables with proper adapters could do the job. DX90 with my stored audio files and user  friendly control would be an ideal option as a transport at late evening listening.


----------



## iDesign (Aug 24, 2019)

Out of curiosity has anyone seen other covers like this that may fit the DAVE and Blu Mk II? I have wanted something like this to keep dust and sunlight away from my DAVE+Blu MK II while they are not in use. The execution of these covers leaves a bit to be desired like the non-seriffed font which isn't used by CHORD. Although I can easily fabricate something like this, I wish Chord offered something like this as an accessory. 

http://yahoo.aleado.com/lot?auctionID=r329150258#enlargeimg


----------



## ZappaMan

Have you tried using a nice tea towel?


----------



## Amberlamps

Hello there gentlemen, serious question, I have an excellent offer of a new Dave which I've basically accepted already, but one question remains.

The headphone out, how good or bad is it at driving headphones ? To put it into perspective I never ever go higher than -15H on TT2 for brief periods, the rest of the time it's at -30H or higher, like 35 -45H

I don't own Susvara or the likes, so will I be able to get loud music via Dave's headphone output, I'm using HD800S and Mr Speakers Aeon Closed and easy to drive Audio Technica's.

1, will I get a good loud volume with my headphones.
2, am I likely to have problems due to dave only having 2watts on it's headphone out port ? 

Basically, am I likely to notice the lack of power on daves headphone port ?


----------



## ecwl

Amberlamps said:


> Hello there gentlemen, serious question, I have an excellent offer of a new Dave which I've basically accepted already, but one question remains.
> 
> The headphone out, how good or bad is it at driving headphones ? To put it into perspective I never ever go higher than -15H on TT2 for brief periods, the rest of the time it's at -30H or higher, like 35 -45H
> 
> ...


Based on your current Hugo TT2 usage and headphones, you're not going to have problems driving the headphones with DAVE. I drive my Aeon Closed, Focal Utopia and HD650 perfectly fine and at my local Head-Fi meets, DAVE drives HD800S and my headphones more than loud enough for everyone there. (I tend to listen at 10-20dB quieter than most people at my local meet). I find at the meet, it's really only with some headphones like HE1000 or LCD4 where some people who prefer a much louder volume where they would want DAVE to go beyond +4dB. Based on your current listening volume, I don't think you'll run into any problems.


----------



## miketlse (Aug 27, 2019)

Amberlamps said:


> Hello there gentlemen, serious question, I have an excellent offer of a new Dave which I've basically accepted already, but one question remains.
> 
> The headphone out, how good or bad is it at driving headphones ? To put it into perspective I never ever go higher than -15H on TT2 for brief periods, the rest of the time it's at -30H or higher, like 35 -45H
> 
> ...


Is this dave instead of the empyreans?


----------



## Amberlamps (Aug 27, 2019)

ecwl said:


> Based on your current Hugo TT2 usage and headphones, you're not going to have problems driving the headphones with DAVE. I drive my Aeon Closed, Focal Utopia and HD650 perfectly fine and at my local Head-Fi meets, DAVE drives HD800S and my headphones more than loud enough for everyone there. (I tend to listen at 10-20dB quieter than most people at my local meet). I find at the meet, it's really only with some headphones like HE1000 or LCD4 where some people who prefer a much louder volume where they would want DAVE to go beyond +4dB. Based on your current listening volume, I don't think you'll run into any problems.



-15H would be max for maybe 30 seconds and then I would start going back upwards. I usually sit say anything from -25 - 45H depending on time of day and music I'm listening to.

I would hate to get a dave for me to then realise TT2 is where it's at HP wise.

Empys were a demo, try befo I buy kinda thing. But dave is a trade in of TT2+spons on top.


----------



## simorag (Aug 27, 2019)

Amberlamps said:


> Hello there gentlemen, serious question, I have an excellent offer of a new Dave which I've basically accepted already, but one question remains.
> 
> The headphone out, how good or bad is it at driving headphones ? To put it into perspective I never ever go higher than -15H on TT2 for brief periods, the rest of the time it's at -30H or higher, like 35 -45H
> 
> ...



I have used the DAVE with the HD800S for several months and never went above -10dB even with very quietly recorded classical music tracks. I typically listen at about 80-85dB perceived SPL (OK, sometimes I go well above 90dB when I am in the right mood ).

I am now listening to the DAVE with the much (_much_) less efficient AB-1266 Phi TC, and they play just fine in most situations.

DAVE (especially if M Scaled) and HD800S is a great pairing IMO, especially if you are after transparency, soundstage, imaging, 'plankton' detail retrieval.


----------



## Amberlamps

simorag said:


> I have used the DAVE with the HD800S for several months and never went above -10dB even with very quietly recorded classical music tracks. I typically listen at about 80-85dB perceived SPL (OK, sometimes I go well above 90dB when I am in the right mood ).
> 
> I am now listening to the DAVE with the much (_much_) less efficient AB-1266 Phi TC, and they play just fine in most situations.
> 
> DAVE (especially if M Scaled) and HD800S is a great pairing IMO, especially if you are after transparency, soundstage, imaging, 'plankton' detail retrieval.



Thats what I like to hear, I did ask Rob and he said headphones would be ok, no driving problems for what I use but real world usage stories help calm me down.


----------



## jlbrach (Aug 27, 2019)

Amberlamps said:


> Hello there gentlemen, serious question, I have an excellent offer of a new Dave which I've basically accepted already, but one question remains.
> 
> The headphone out, how good or bad is it at driving headphones ? To put it into perspective I never ever go higher than -15H on TT2 for brief periods, the rest of the time it's at -30H or higher, like 35 -45H
> 
> ...



The Dave is actually a very good and clean amp section which as we all know is not separate from the DAC stage....in fact it will drive pretty much everything other than the susvara and abyss TC...the LCD-4 is on the border and can be listened to with and or without external amp depending on preference...I personally go back and forth all the time...unless you plan to listen to one of the perhaps 3 HP's out there that would need an external amp the dave will do quite nicely


----------



## Amberlamps

jlbrach said:


> The Dave is actually a very and clean amp section which as we all know is not separate from the DAC stage....in fact it will drive pretty much everything other than the susvara and abyss TC...the LCD-4 is on the border and can be listened to with and or without external amp depending on preference...I personally go back and forth all the time...unless you plan to listen to one of the perhaps 3 HP's out there that would need an external amp the dave will do quite nicely



Another good answer.

I've been too'ing and fro'ing about doing this since about january, maybe february, I was gunna get a demo from my dealer but I turned him down, then I was going to do it and pulled out and these last couple of weeks it's been on my mind but I would of liked to hear a dave v my tt2, but looks like I will just go straight to a dave.

Comparing tt2 and dave, headphone users, can you or did you notice a big improvement when listening to dave compared to a tt2 ?


----------



## jlbrach

simorag said:


> I have used the DAVE with the HD800S for several months and never went above -10dB even with very quietly recorded classical music tracks. I typically listen at about 80-85dB perceived SPL (OK, sometimes I go well above 90dB when I am in the right mood ).
> 
> I am now listening to the DAVE with the much (_much_) less efficient AB-1266 Phi TC, and they play just fine in most situations.
> 
> DAVE (especially if M Scaled) and HD800S is a great pairing IMO, especially if you are after transparency, soundstage, imaging, 'plankton' detail retrieval.



funny, i was just playing the Abyss TC straight out of the dave as well and it is quite nice but in most cases with the TC i do think an amp enhances it....the LCD-4 is a better match for the dave without an amp


----------



## simorag (Aug 28, 2019)

jlbrach said:


> funny, i was just playing the Abyss TC straight out of the dave as well and it is quite nice but in most cases with the TC i do think an amp enhances it....



While I maintain that direct drive from the DAVE is 'just fine', I agree that in order to squeeze 100% of the potential of the Abyss TC in all situations an (excellent) amp is necessary.

I am currently in the process of evaluating several amps, both headphones and speakers, to get back there


----------



## Vyyy

Anyone uses here Omegas super 7 mk2 or compact alnico monitors?
Impresions, thanks.


----------



## MacedonianHero

simorag said:


> While I maintain that direct drive from the DAVE is 'just fine', I agree that in order to squeeze 100% of the potential of the Abyss TC in all situations an (excellent) amp is necessary.



You can add me to this list as well WRT to the Phi TC. "Just fine" from the DAVE, but on another level with either the HPA4 or GS-X Mini.


----------



## tunes

Sorry if this is redundant and asked before. 

I remain a bit confused about the dual BNC cable connections between HMS and DAVE.

I don’t want to mix up right and left channels and not sure which dual BNC inputs to use for DAVE.   The manuals are not very specific and unclear
About left and right channels. 

Right now I have HMS dual BNC 1 out to DAVE dual BNC 3 top and HMS dual BNC 2 out to DAVE dual BNC 4 bottom.  Is this correct and does it matter if on DAVE the paired 1/2 or 3/4 inputs are used??

Thanks


----------



## musickid (Aug 31, 2019)

1 to 1 and 2 to 2 I think?

Not sure about 3 and 4.


----------



## tunes

musickid said:


> 1 to 1 and 2 to 2 I think?
> 
> Not sure about 3 and 4.


All straitened out now:

BNC 1 on HMS to BNC 3 on Dave bottom 

BNC 2 on HMS to BNC 4 on Dave top


----------



## JaZZ

musickid said:


> 1 to 1 and 2 to 2 I think?
> 
> Not sure about 3 and 4.


BNC 3 and BNC 4 are the second input pair suitable for dual-BNC mode – to be connected to HMS BNC 1 and BNC 2 as well. Think even to even, odd to odd.


----------



## FunkyBassMan

Amberlamps said:


> Comparing tt2 and dave, headphone users, can you or did you notice a big improvement when listening to dave compared to a tt2 ?



I just did a marathon 8 hour listening session to TT2 and DAVE with and without MScaler on all kinds of music and top end headphones at a dealer, and to me the DAVE + MScaler killed everything else so badly I couldn't really listen to any other combination.  Which was kinda depressing given the full price of the combo.  But it's truly insanely good.  Leaving detaily-y stuff of this guitar pick shining or that cymbal attack out of it, everything in the music comes together into one coherent very moving whole so powerful I couldn't stop listening.  

But I'll have to dream, because the combo's way beyond my price range.


----------



## Light - Man

FunkyBassMan said:


> I just did a marathon 8 hour listening session to TT2 and DAVE with and without MScaler on all kinds of music and top end headphones at a dealer, and to me the DAVE + MScaler killed everything else so badly I couldn't really listen to any other combination.  Which was kinda depressing given the full price of the combo.  But it's truly insanely good.  Leaving detaily-y stuff of this guitar pick shining or that cymbal attack out of it, everything in the music comes together into one coherent very moving whole so powerful I couldn't stop listening.
> 
> But I'll have to dream, because the combo's way beyond my price range.


Guys, have you ever thought of listening to other brands of gear. It sounds to me that the Chord gear sounds flawed without the mscaler........................makes me wonder.....................

I am presently in a kind of audio blissfulness without having to pay...........................................


----------



## FunkyBassMan

Light - Man said:


> Guys, have you ever thought of listening to other brands of gear. It sounds to me that the Chord gear sounds flawed without the mscaler........................makes me wonder.....................
> 
> I am presently in a kind of audio blissfulness without having to pay...........................................



Well in pro audio I've heard all kinds of stuff, most impressed with the Apogee line.  

I got roped in to Chord by hearing the Hugo2 and loving it, realizing I could bring it on my trips.  I liked it so much it got me listening in detail to the high-end stuff.  Now I wish I hadn't lol.

But Stereophile says some Meridian is as good as a Dave because it does MQA and sounds better on certain instruments.  So I guess there are other alternatives out there.


----------



## FunkyBassMan (Sep 6, 2019)

ray-dude said:


> When I auditioned the TT2 (with mScaler), I was eager to have it be good enough to trade out my DAVE (just to have the flexibility of more power output).  Took all of 30 seconds to realize (alas) my DAVE wasn't going anywhere.



I agree.  I did a ton of A/B with the TT2 and it wasn't even close to the Dave (to my ears). Sure, it has nice clean transients, smooth even reverbs, wide soundstage and all that.  But I'm a musician so I'm not too interested in the more technical audio elements like that (except to the extent that they're clearly lacking in a deficient unit, which is obviously not the case with either).  Probably a lot of the classical listeners are into that stuff, so more power to them. But I'm more into whether the music as reproduced hits me with the power and emotion I feel like the producer/player/composer was going for, and in that regard it felt like it has 1/4-1/3 the musicality of the Dave. 

To note, this was paired up with M-Scaler on both it and the TT2.  I wasn't interested in either unit alone, really.  Maybe there's less of a difference heard that way, dunno.

But of course that's only one opinion among thousands, so take it for what it's worth.


----------



## Triode User

FunkyBassMan said:


> I agree.  I did a ton of A/B with the TT2 and it wasn't even close to the Dave (to my ears). Sure, it has nice clean transients, smooth even reverbs, wide soundstage and all that.  But I'm a musician so I'm not too interested in the more technical audio elements like that (except to the extent that they're clearly lacking in a deficient unit, which is obviously not the case with either).  Probably a lot of the classical listeners are into that stuff, so more power to them. But I'm more into whether the music as reproduced hits me with the power and emotion I feel like the producer/player/composer was going for, and in that regard it felt like it has 1/4-1/3 the musicality of the Dave.
> 
> To note, this was paired up with M-Scaler on both it and the TT2.  I wasn't interested in either unit alone, really.  Maybe there's less of a difference heard that way, dunno.
> 
> But of course that's only one opinion among thousands, so take it for what it's worth.



It’s ok, there are plenty of us who have also listened extensively to both TT2 and Dave and provided Dave is within budget limits then there is no question that Dave is miles better and worth getting.


----------



## Amberlamps

FunkyBassMan said:


> I just did a marathon 8 hour listening session to TT2 and DAVE with and without MScaler on all kinds of music and top end headphones at a dealer, and to me the DAVE + MScaler killed everything else so badly I couldn't really listen to any other combination.  Which was kinda depressing given the full price of the combo.  But it's truly insanely good.  Leaving detaily-y stuff of this guitar pick shining or that cymbal attack out of it, everything in the music comes together into one coherent very moving whole so powerful I couldn't stop listening.
> 
> But I'll have to dream, because the combo's way beyond my price range.



I'm so close to buying one it's nuts, I'm £1k short, I just have to get that and then I'm upgrading. I don't work now so £1k isn't the easiest thing in the world to conjur up without either getting a loan or taking Dave out on credit, which is not happening as I have 7/8ths of the money already. I will have the last of the cash needed soon and Dave will be mine.

I hate not being able to work nowadays, as it interferes with everything, especially when it comes to buying new toys.


----------



## iDesign (Sep 6, 2019)

FunkyBassMan said:


> I just did a marathon 8 hour listening session to TT2 and DAVE with and without MScaler on all kinds of music and top end headphones at a dealer, and to me the DAVE + MScaler killed everything else so badly I couldn't really listen to any other combination.  Which was kinda depressing given the full price of the combo.  But it's truly insanely good.  Leaving detaily-y stuff of this guitar pick shining or that cymbal attack out of it, everything in the music comes together into one coherent very moving whole so powerful I couldn't stop listening.
> 
> But I'll have to dream, because the combo's way beyond my price range.


And if you listen with the Blu Mk II, you will be even further impressed because it removes all of the issues with computer-based USB audio. Two nights ago I did A/B comparisons between a CD and the same album in TIDAL and the difference isn't even close. In fact, the difference is so significant that I have completely written off and given up on USB audio for now. There is no amount of gadgets like the ZENith, NUC, Audiolinux, Stylus, JitterBug, clocks, OCXO, TCXO, SoTM, Paul Hynes, etc. that will ever fix all the issues with USB audio. The DAVE + Blu Mk II is the ultimate.


----------



## musickid

I was planning to trade in my H2 to get a TT2 to use with my HMS. Would going for a solo dave be a big mistake here? (trading in my HMS and H2  and paying the difference). It has been said that it is possible to live without dave's transparency but not the musicality of the TT2/HMS. If i went for a solo dave it would be at least a year or more till i could add an mscaler. I have listened to solo dave and the TT2/HMS and appreciate the differences more transparent vs a warmer musical but 'heavier sound'. Appreciate advice as i don't have much time to make a decision.


----------



## Triode User

iDesign said:


> And if you listen with the Blu Mk II, you will be even further impressed because it removes all of the issues with computer-based USB audio. Two nights ago I did A/B comparisons between a CD and the same album in TIDAL and the difference isn't even close. In fact, the difference is so significant that I have completely written off and given up on USB audio for now. There is no amount of gadgets like the ZENith, NUC, Audiolinux, Stylus, JitterBug, clocks, OCXO, TCXO, SoTM, Paul Hynes, etc. that will ever fix all the issues with USB audio. The DAVE + Blu Mk II is the ultimate.



I totally agree with you. For evaluation purposes and development of cables I have Dave, TT2, Blu2 and HMS and often when just listening for pleasure my preferred kit is a CD on Blu2 to Dave.


----------



## naynay

iDesign said:


> In fact, the difference is so significant that I have completely written off and given up on USB audio for now.


There is still hope.
Rip a cd album to SSD and play it through the CX-EX.


----------



## musickid

Very nice simple chain nay.


----------



## iDesign

naynay said:


> There is still hope.
> Rip a cd album to SSD and play it through the CX-EX.


No thanks, hold my beer while I put another CD in my Blu Mk II.


----------



## ZappaMan

iDesign said:


> No thanks, hold my beer while I put another CD in my Blu Mk II.


At least your dealing with some constants, all this stuff about linear power network switches etc, where does it end.


----------



## musickid

It doesn't end that's the point...


----------



## Pastwa

Come on, let's be serious, if someone wants the ultimate 'pc mode' experience with DAVE then something like Aurender W20 or similar quality digital transport would be required in the chain, not the cheap toys mentioned above (JitterBug, etc.).


----------



## Amberlamps

Pastwa said:


> Come on, let's be serious, if someone wants the ultimate 'pc mode' experience with DAVE then something like Aurender W20 or similar quality digital transport would be required in the chain, not the cheap toys mentioned above (JitterBug, etc.).



£16.5k for a streamer, yeah, not a chance I would buy something like that. Not only because I can't afford it, but because I'm sure that other much cheaper products would be just as good.

You can buy a decent little car for £16.5k


----------



## Amberlamps

iDesign said:


> No thanks, hold my beer while I put another CD in my Blu Mk II.



Can dave work with a flash drive plugged into it's usb B port ? If so with an adapter, that would completely eliminate any usb problems from a pc.

Also, is daves usb port galvanically isolated ?


----------



## naynay

iDesign said:


> No thanks, hold my beer while I put another CD in my Blu Mk II.


I just stay in my chair,let the songs play on and drink more beer.


----------



## Amberlamps

A question for dave owners who have also heard or own a TT2

Say Dave's sound quality was 10 out of 10.

Where would TT2 be on that scale, 8 out of 10 or 6 out of 10 ? Etc etc

Where would you all put TT2 on a 10 out of 10 scale, and knowing dave gets a 10.


----------



## FunkyBassMan (Sep 7, 2019)

Amberlamps said:


> A question for dave owners who have also heard or own a TT2
> 
> Say Dave's sound quality was 10 out of 10.
> 
> ...



As far as smoothness of frequency spectrum, transparency, sonic "openness", purity of transients, digital "black", etc., my personal opinion was that the TT2 is right there: a 9.5 at least, maybe a solid 10 or even a squeech higher.

As far as how the music coheres like one big wave coming out of the ocean, the way the downbeat of a chorus kicks you in the butt, the way the first chords of the Sokolov version of the Rach 2 punch you in the gut like Mike Tyson, the canyon-esque deepness of the groove coming off of Bernard Purdie's drums in Babylon Sisters, it wasn't even close.  The DAVE was truly an emotional experience the TT2 just couldn't deliver.

Now this was all with the M-Scaler attached, so I couldn't help you on how the units sound alone.

I'm aware of how unmeasurable and subjective such a response is, and even that there could in theory be euphonics involved in the analog portion of the headphone amp etc (the way some mic preamps just sound creamy and wonderful, for example), so YMMV hugely and others may totally disagree.

PS - I should note that I was hoping to just go in and buy an M-Scaler for my Hugo2 and call it a day, so I had NO prejudice in favor of liking the DAVE.  The contrary, in fact, as now I'm screwed, because the M-Scaler with the Hugo2 was even a bit worse than the TT2 (the jump from the TT2 to the DAVE was probably 5 times the jump from the H2 to the TT2 in my book) so I now have this memory of how good it can sound at the same time as knowing I can't afford it.  

PPS - I was listening principally through headphones.  I'm certain that through great speakers, the difference would be less, because the analog distortion through that chain would add a certain coherence to the music.


----------



## onlychild

I have owned the Blu2 and if CDs are your thing, there really isn’t a better choice.  

Main reason I sold it is because I mostly listen to my music in “shuffle” mode by genre, something you can’t do with CDs or Vinyl


----------



## iDesign (Sep 7, 2019)

onlychild said:


> I have owned the Blu2 and if CDs are your thing, there really isn’t a better choice.
> 
> Main reason I sold it is because I mostly listen to my music in “shuffle” mode by genre, something you can’t do with CDs or Vinyl


Agreed. And fortunately the Blu Mk II also has the flexibility to be used with servers and streaming audio via its USB input. Blu Mk IIs are now trading under $5,500 and that is a great value— especially because you don’t need to spend thousands more on a server or computer to achieve excellent sound quality. I use TIDAL and Qobuz extensively with my Blu Mk II, and although it’s great for convenience, the audio quality is handicapped.


----------



## iDesign

Amberlamps said:


> Also, is daves usb port galvanically isolated?


Yes.


----------



## rkt31

A $500 laptop vs $16k streamer, the major difference may be the power line of usb. For galvenically isolated usb input, it should matter less anyway. Usb power line can be replaced very easily by a cheap device called ifi idefender. I use 4xAA NiMH battery pack for replacing 5v power line. Now coming to data line. By using laptop you are already getting the advantage of asio driver and the remaining noise of data line can be completely removed by two or three ifi isilencer in series. This transport is still lot cheaper than $16k streamer and can easily compete with it.


----------



## ZappaMan

rkt31 said:


> A $500 laptop vs $16k streamer, the major difference may be the power line of usb. For galvenically isolated usb input, it should matter less anyway. Usb power line can be replaced very easily by a cheap device called ifi idefender. I use 4xAA NiMH battery pack for replacing 5v power line. Now coming to data line. By using laptop you are already getting the advantage of asio driver and the remaining noise of data line can be completely removed by two or three ifi isilencer in series. This transport is still lot cheaper than $16k streamer and can easily compete with it.


But surely the people who spend 16k, wouldn’t, if spending £500 did the same?


----------



## onlychild

The Blu2 usb input is not galvanically isolated so the USB input on mscaler sounds better than USB input on Blu2.


----------



## naynay (Sep 7, 2019)

rkt31 said:


> A $500 laptop vs $16k streamer, the major difference may be the power line of usb. For galvenically isolated usb input, it should matter less anyway. Usb power line can be replaced very easily by a cheap device called ifi idefender. I use 4xAA NiMH battery pack for replacing 5v power line. Now coming to data line. By using laptop you are already getting the advantage of asio driver and the remaining noise of data line can be completely removed by two or three ifi isilencer in series. This transport is still lot cheaper than $16k streamer and can easily compete with it.


Certain costlier streamers have pretty much every part inside tweaked for maximum audio unlike most laptops there is no comparison.


----------



## rkt31

naynay said:


> Certain costlier streamers have pretty much everything part inside tweaked for maximum audio unlike most laptops there is no comparison.


What tweaks ?


----------



## ray-dude

I’m finding that with digital, it all comes down to power and ground quality, and clock stability/precision. Closer you are to the DAC, the bigger the impact, but I contonue to be shocked how much things upstream continue to have an impact. The quest for the mythical digital moat goes on, but everything (still) matters.


----------



## iDesign

onlychild said:


> The Blu2 usb input is not galvanically isolated so the USB input on mscaler sounds better than USB input on Blu2.



https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hug...e-official-thread.885042/page-3#post-14383549


----------



## rkt31 (Sep 7, 2019)

If you replace usb power line by a clean battery power, clean the usb data line, then there should not be much difference between the usb transports, as clocking will be done by the dac anyway in each case. So what tweaks of expensive usb transport will improve it over laptop ?


----------



## ZappaMan

rkt31 said:


> If you replace usb power line by a clean battery power, clean the usb data line, then there should not be much difference between the usb transports, as clocking will be done by the dac anyway in each case. So what tweaks of expensive usb transport will improve it over laptop ?


The usb signal is transmitted in analogue form, by creating square waves, so the ability to create the most accurate square wave is important, allegedly.
But if you see usb data as zeros and ones then, you’ll never see why everything matters


----------



## naynay (Sep 7, 2019)

rkt31 said:


> If you replace usb power line by a clean battery power, clean the usb data line, then there should not be much difference between the usb transports, as clocking will be done by the dac anyway in each case. So what tweaks of expensive usb transport will improve it over laptop ?


We audiophiles so wish that was the case as we would save a few pounds but it just isn't unfortunately.
Once you audition one you will hear but only do so if your prepared to pay.

Just to add the best sound comes from using the internal SSD as is with most high end streamers.


----------



## iDesign (Sep 8, 2019)

ray-dude said:


> I’m finding that with digital, it all comes down to power and ground quality, and clock stability/precision. Closer you are to the DAC, the bigger the impact, but I contonue to be shocked how much things upstream continue to have an impact. The quest for the mythical digital moat goes on, but everything (still) matters.


Its the uncertainty about what’s upstream that is the question. TIDAL and Qobuz allow for artists/labels to submit albums through third party services like Indigoboom, Record Union, DistroKid or Tunecore and that sloppy process invites serious questions about the quality and provenance of some recordings. How was the file processed? How was the file modified to add headers? We can’t know. Now let’s use MQA as another example. Beginning in February 2019, major record labels such as Atlantic, Warner, and numerous small labels began distributing_ most _new releases only in MQA 48kHZ 24 bit to TIDAL and Qobuz (yes, Qobuz is publishing MQA formatted albums— see Audiophile Style for more on that). Each week more and more albums are appearing only in MQA format and that is what’s concerning about digital and streaming— the digital quest might be in vein if the files from TIDAL and Qobuz are inferior to begin with. For me the CD is the source of truth and it just sounds better.


----------



## JaZZ

ZappaMan said:


> The usb signal is transmitted in analogue form, by creating square waves, so the ability to create the most accurate square wave is important, allegedly.


I doubt this. Otherwise the transmission via Toslink with its bandwidth limitation (→ rounded squares) would sound worse than every other connection. Also, given jitter immunity on the DAC's side signal-shape accuracy shouldn't matter – theoretically –, as long as the digital info is losslessly transmitted. So rkt31's question is justified: What kind of tweaks are there supposed to be at work in said expensive servers? Why not just use a battery-driven audio player as source instead?


----------



## ZappaMan

JaZZ said:


> I doubt this. Otherwise the transmission via Toslink with its bandwidth limitation (→ rounded squares) would sound worse than every other connection. Also, given jitter immunity on the DAC's side signal-shape accuracy shouldn't matter – theoretically –, as long as the digital info is losslessly transmitted. So rkt31's question is justified: What kind of tweaks are there supposed to be at work in said expensive servers? Why not just use a battery-driven audio player as source instead?


I have no skin in the game. 
I find it hard to imagine even how the checksum process is performed on an analogue signal, it must be within a certain tolerance?
If the square waves are the same from all sources to all downstream components then I’d be surprised. And if the variation in the reproduction of the wave makes no difference then I’d be surprised, but I’m just an onlooker.  I’d like to understand it better.


----------



## ray-dude

Generally speaking, better power, better clocks, dedicated OSs that minimize other processes

By better power, I mean power supplies with more stable reference voltages (low ripple), fast transient response (big and fast current reserves), and robust/stable ground.  If you have a perfect reference voltage, that doesn’t vary with instantaneous demand, with an ultra low impedance connection to the digital circuit, the power supply basically crushes/absorbes and switching or transient noise in the system. That then does not get transmited downstream (by cable, by power lines, by air)

the better/more stable clock, the better as well

at the end of the day what matters is having the best reference voltage and ground as possible for the DAC, and the best clock stability. Anything upstream or Downstream or in the air that takes away from that, takes away from what the DAC is capable

what is amazing to me is how something 3 steps away from the DAC can still be audible. Non sensical and madness inducing.


----------



## JaZZ

ZappaMan said:


> I have no skin in the game.
> I find it hard to imagine even how the checksum process is performed on an analogue signal, it must be within a certain tolerance?
> If the square waves are the same from all sources to all downstream components then I’d be surprised. And if the variation in the reproduction of the wave makes no difference then I’d be surprised, but I’m just an onlooker.  I’d like to understand it better.


Even your Wave cables with their massive ferrite population will certainly round the signal to a significant degree (not like optical, given the higher bandwidth, but enough to deviate from the ideal). 

Just so much for now, the kitchen is waiting...


----------



## ecwl

I think everyone’s mileage may vary and my listening abilities may be different than yours. But I can get my Blu2 USB to sound the same as CD playback but it requires careful setup. First, even though the USB is not galvanically isolated, the dual BNC output is. I can either play off my iPad via USB to Blu2. Or my main setup is via ultraRendu with LPS1 power supply but I find the main determinant to sound quality there is actually making sure the USB streamer, the network routers, my cable modem and the NAS are grounded (I had to add ground wires) as it takes away high impedance leakage current noise away from being transmitted to the Blu2 via those Ethernet cables. That’s my experience but your mileage may vary.


----------



## Triode User

JaZZ said:


> Even your Wave cables with their massive ferrite population will certainly round the signal to a significant degree (not like optical, given the higher bandwidth, but enough to deviate from the ideal).
> 
> Just so much for now, the kitchen is waiting...



Just on that and not to divert the thread but the target frequency for the ferrites is well outside the signal frequency. 

And I have some fermented red grape juice waiting. . . . .


----------



## naynay

rkt31 said:


> What tweaks ?


If you have time read 6moons.com part 1 CX+EX solution.
Part 2 currently in progress to follow in a few weeks time.


----------



## miketlse

Triode User said:


> Just on that and not to divert the thread but the target frequency for the ferrites is well outside the signal frequency.
> 
> And I have some fermented red grape juice waiting. . . . .


I hope that it is some decent wine. Life is too short to drink vinegar.


----------



## JaZZ

Triode User said:


> Just on that and not to divert the thread but the target frequency for the ferrites is well outside the signal frequency.
> 
> And I have some fermented red grape juice waiting. . . . .


We were talking of the signal shape that's compromized by bandwidth limiting. You can't avoid a rounding of edges by any form of (low-pass) filtering. That's not to say the digital signal itself (or its content, resp.) be compromized.


----------



## Triode User

JaZZ said:


> We were talking of the signal shape that's compromized by bandwidth limiting. You can't avoid a rounding of edges by any form of (low-pass) filtering. That's not to say the digital signal itself (or its content, resp.) be compromized.



Too late, the red grape juice has captured my attention . . . .


----------



## tunes

Pastwa said:


> Come on, let's be serious, if someone wants the ultimate 'pc mode' experience with DAVE then something like Aurender W20 or similar quality digital transport would be required in the chain, not the cheap toys mentioned above (JitterBug, etc.).


I use a basic DAP via optical out with no issues and it sounds great.   You are tethered by the cable but so are your ears.


----------



## JaZZ

ray-dude said:


> Generally speaking, better power, better clocks, dedicated OSs that minimize other processes.


Just playing the devil's advocate...



> By better power, I mean power supplies with more stable reference voltages (low ripple), fast transient response (big and fast current reserves), and robust/stable ground.  If you have a perfect reference voltage, that doesn’t vary with instantaneous demand, with an ultra low impedance connection to the digital circuit, the power supply basically crushes/absorbes and switching or transient noise in the system. That then does not get transmited downstream (by cable, by power lines, by air)


It's somewhat plausible that every process that takes current introduces some interference and that it's dependent on the capabilities of the power supply how much this takes effect. Now we're still talking of a digital signal that's not directly affected by such irregularities. We just have to take care that the interferences don't reach the DAC and further downstream devices. Your scenario is that a well-designed server will eliminate much of the interferences by means of low-pass filtering and/or galvanic isolation (against the transmission of interferences via ground connection). Unfortunately the signal processing in the server will produce some interferences itself, thus is depending on a capable power supply for minimizing them. It reads like you would be better off by renouncing the server and just using a row of battery-driven _iFi iSilencers_ or _iDefenders_ instead as proposed by _rkt31_.



> the better/more stable clock, the better as well


If you ask Rob, that's absolutely counterproductive, since any pre-DAC reclocking measures will only do harm to the sound or nothing in the best case, since the DAVE itself has a very capable clock on board – the cause of its immunity to signal jitter. How can double re-clocking be useful for sound quality?



> What is amazing to me is how something 3 steps away from the DAC can still be audible. Non sensical and madness inducing.


Hard to believe, but I believe you. _dmance_ reports the same. However, it looks like we will never get a signal clean enough for our demands (that can't be improved any further), and then there's the mechanical aspect and the noise of the tides...


----------



## ubs28 (Sep 8, 2019)

So what do I loose in terms of sound quality by using optical with a Samsung smart TV (it acts as a streamer to the Chord Dave)?

It sounds good enough to me while being to stream from my iPad’s, computers, NAS, iphone’s to the Chord Dave to be honest


----------



## Triode User (Sep 8, 2019)

musickid said:


> I was planning to trade in my H2 to get a TT2 to use with my HMS. Would going for a solo dave be a big mistake here? (trading in my HMS and H2  and paying the difference). It has been said that it is possible to live without dave's transparency but not the musicality of the TT2/HMS. If i went for a solo dave it would be at least a year or more till i could add an mscaler. I have listened to solo dave and the TT2/HMS and appreciate the differences more transparent vs a warmer musical but 'heavier sound'. Appreciate advice as i don't have much time to make a decision.



Sorry for the delay but I wanted to listen to a variety of music whilst comparing solo Dave to TT2 + Mscaler side by side.

The upshot is that for me the sheer transparency of Dave wins through. Of course the TT2 and Mscaler combination is magnificent and is rightly hailed as being tremendous but compared to solo Dave there is a loss in transparency that I would not be willing to trade. Listening to individual notes and instruments the Dave gives so much space around them where the TT2 combination seems to lose out on this and to me even possibly seems a bit 'plummy'. That is perhaps the warmer presentation that many people like with the TT2

Of course there is plenty of bass with TT2+ Mscaler but so there is as well with Dave.  However with solo Dave the bass is just so much more defined. It is the same for me with the the top end and mids where I feel that a bit of detail gets lost with the TT2 HMS combo.

Now, this is all a *very* personal thing but I have lived with Dave and TT2 since they first came out and also of course with the Mscaler. However, ask 100 people and you will probably get 50 who prefer TT2 + Mscaler and 50 who prefer Dave solo or indeed I might me the one person and the other 99 prefer TT2 + Mscaler and so I am very wary of influencing you too much but for me at least the solo Dave listening has today just reinforced what a class act it is. This takes nothing away from the TT2 + HMS combination and I emphasise again that this is a very very personal evaluation and YMMV applies more than ever.

Not to be underestimated is that if you get a solo Dave then you are more than half way there to the killer combination of Dave and Mscaler! If you bide your time end keep your eyes open you could even get a bargain second hand Mscaler  . . . . .

By the way I was using the TT2 Filter 1 throughout and I was using the USB to Dave and Mscaler from my Innuos Zenith SE which does not have optical out. Everything was listened to through my Pass Labs XA60.8 monobloc amps and Spendor SP200 speakers because I do not use headphones. I also used a variety of connections between TT2 and HMS including stock cables and other connection methods.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Just to confirm, the Dave will accept both 120 & 220 voltage?
So if you move between continents, it will automatically accept that countries voltage to whatever you plug it into?


----------



## iDesign (Sep 8, 2019)

Thenewguy007 said:


> Just to confirm, the Dave will accept both 120 & 220 voltage?
> So if you move between continents, it will automatically accept that countries voltage to whatever you plug it into?


The DAVE automatically adjusts for input voltages. However, if you’re buying a secondhand DAVE from another country, consider the differences in the remotes and lack of warranty coverage (the warranty is only valid within the region of original purchase).


----------



## gnomen (Sep 9, 2019)

ZappaMan said:


> how the checksum process is performed


The sad truth is there is no checksum process for digital audio signals AFAIK (as opposed to data signals sent over e.g. USB which do have error checking and retransmission in the protocol), so it is quite possible that what arrives at the DAC input is not bit perfect.  It would be very helpful if one of the test sites could do that comparison (original signal vs delivered signal) and report how much, if at all, is lost due to small errors in forming the digital pulses that might be causing losses.  That way the industry would at least know, or eliminate, one source of worry concerning the quality of the digital signal.
We are still talking about a digital signal when it arrives at the DAC input.  While all signals are 'analog' what this means is that the received signal only has to be clear enough to distinguish zeroes from ones reliably.   Whereas with an audio signal in analog form, the equipment is tracing every detail of the sound on a base carrier signal.  In the latter case, generating the base carrier signal smoothly and with plenty of power reserve makes a huge difference.  Which is why most power amplifiers are mostly sophisticated power supplies with modulation circuits sitting on top.*
I cannot say I have heard any noticeable difference between sources once noise, cabling and generating software (e.g. Roon) are correctly addressed, so I am struggling to justify further expenditure upstream.  But that is only my experience, based largely on auditions at high-end dealers.  Very willing to hear contrary views from others here who actually own and live with better upstream equipment.

*I recall a celebrated Australian power amp designer, Peter Stein, once saying "it is like trying to paint a masterpiece with one hand while someone is shaking your other hand vigorously"


----------



## tunes

gnomen said:


> The sad truth is there is no checksum process for digital audio signals AFAIK (as opposed to data signals sent over e.g. USB which do have error checking and retransmission in the protocol), so it is quite possible that what arrives at the DAC input is not bit perfect.  It would be very helpful if one of the test sites could do that comparison (original signal vs delivered signal) and report how much, if at all, is lost due to small errors in forming the digital pulses that might be causing losses.  That way the industry would at least know, or eliminate, one source of worry concerning the quality of the digital signal.
> We are still talking about a digital signal when it arrives at the DAC input.  While all signals are 'analog' what this means is that the received signal only has to be clear enough to distinguish zeroes from ones reliably.   Whereas with an audio signal in analog form, the equipment is tracing every detail of the sound on a base carrier signal.  In the latter case, generating the base carrier signal smoothly and with plenty of power reserve makes a huge difference.  Which is why most power amplifiers are mostly sophisticated power supplies with modulation circuits sitting on top.*
> I cannot say I have heard any noticeable difference between sources once noise, cabling and generating software (e.g. Roon) are correctly addressed, so I am struggling to justify further expenditure upstream.  But that is only my experience, based largely on auditions at high-end dealers.  Very willing to hear contrary views from others here who actually own and live with better upstream equipment.
> 
> *I recall a celebrated Australian power amp designer, Peter Stein, once saying "it is like trying to paint a masterpiece with one hand while someone is shaking your other hand vigorously"


Does everyone leave both DAVE and Mscaler plugged in power on standby continuously?  Is it better to leave Mscaler on all the time in standby mode or if not using for a few day unplug it.  There is no On/Off switch that I know of.


----------



## AndrewOld

tunes said:


> Does everyone leave both DAVE and Mscaler plugged in power on standby continuously?  Is it better to leave Mscaler on all the time in standby mode or if not using for a few day unplug it.  There is no On/Off switch that I know of.


I leave them both on. My DAVE gets quite hot, which occasionally concerns me.


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> Does everyone leave both DAVE and Mscaler plugged in power on standby continuously?  Is it better to leave Mscaler on all the time in standby mode or if not using for a few day unplug it.  There is no On/Off switch that I know of.



I leave my Dave and Scaler switched on 24/7 and usually do not bother to use standby mode. The Mscaler has auto shutdown.


----------



## GryphonGuy

Triode User said:


> I leave my Dave and Scaler switched on 24/7 and usually do not bother to use standby mode. The Mscaler has auto shutdown.



I turn my DAVE off because I cannot perceive a warm-up period in my set-up. I mean the DAVE alone does not seem to exhibit changes in sound during its initial start-up few minutes. However, the Shunyata Denali requires at least 60 mins warm-up period before the airiness enters the realm, so I leave it on as much as possible.

Regards
GG


----------



## iDesign (Sep 9, 2019)

tunes said:


> Does everyone leave both DAVE and Mscaler plugged in power on standby continuously?  Is it better to leave Mscaler on all the time in standby mode or if not using for a few day unplug it.  There is no On/Off switch that I know of.


I leave my DAVE and Blu Mk II in standby and display 4 modes. I wished the DAVE had an option to completely disable the display.


----------



## marhol

GryphonGuy said:


> I turn my DAVE off because I cannot perceive a warm-up period in my set-up. I mean the DAVE alone does not seem to exhibit changes in sound during its initial start-up few minutes. However, the Shunyata Denali requires at least 60 mins warm-up period before the airiness enters the realm, so I leave it on as much as possible.
> 
> Regards
> GG




Me too. I don't perceive sonic benefits either. So I always switch my audio devices off. But my set up is quite simple - Dave + active speakers/headphones.


----------



## iDesign (Sep 10, 2019)

marhol said:


> Me too. I don't perceive sonic benefits either. So I always switch my audio devices off. But my set up is quite simple - Dave + active speakers/headphones.


It’s the thermal cycling that kills electronics and why the DAVE and Blu Mk 2 have display 4 and standby modes.


----------



## marhol

iDesign said:


> It’s the thermal cycling that kills electronics and why the DAVE and Blu Mk 2 have display 4 and standby modes.




So you are trying to say that - to avoid thermal cycling (which is supposedly disserviceable to electronic devices like Dave) it is much better to choose standby mode instead of complete shutdown ? 
I'll admit I am not an expert here but common sense would suggest that electronics should be turned off from time to time - for the sake of its prolonged longetivity. As I understand its generally not recommended for electronics like laptops, TVs, audio devices to be on switch on/switch off merry-go-round too frequently- BUT is it really that disserviceable to switch off Dave completely (from power) at the end of the day in purpose to prolong its life-time and with regards to have a nice healthy sleep free of all unnecessary electronic smog ?


----------



## Triode User

iDesign said:


> It’s the thermal cycling that kills electronics and why the DAVE and Blu Mk 2 have display 4 and standby modes.



Absolutely. This is why I do not ever turn off my Dave or Blu2 or Mscaler and I frequently forget to use standby (by frequently I mean about 95% of the time).

I have mentioned before that I have an amplifier in one system where it has been powered up for about 25 years nonstop apart from 2 house moves. All that I have done in that time is replace the power supply capacitors about 8 years ago.


----------



## Thenewguy007 (Sep 10, 2019)

Triode User said:


> Absolutely. This is why I do not ever turn off my Dave or Blu2 or Mscaler and I frequently forget to use standby (by frequently I mean about 95% of the time).
> 
> I have mentioned before that I have an amplifier in one system where it has been powered up for about 25 years nonstop apart from 2 house moves. All that I have done in that time is replace the power supply capacitors about 8 years ago.



Well that is a problem.
Capacitors do run their course & have a limited life span. Constant use 24/7 & they will die/degrade MUCH quicker. If you plan on keeping a DAC for over 10+ years, it would be advisable to turn the DAC off when you know it won't be used anytime soon.


----------



## iDesign (Sep 10, 2019)

marhol said:


> So you are trying to say that - to avoid thermal cycling (which is supposedly disserviceable to electronic devices like Dave) it is much better to choose standby mode instead of complete shutdown ?
> I'll admit I am not an expert here but common sense would suggest that electronics should be turned off from time to time - for the sake of its prolonged longetivity. As I understand its generally not recommended for electronics like laptops, TVs, audio devices to be on switch on/switch off merry-go-round too frequently- BUT is it really that disserviceable to switch off Dave completely (from power) at the end of the day in purpose to prolong its life-time and with regards to have a nice healthy sleep free of all unnecessary electronic smog ?





Thenewguy007 said:


> Well that is a problem.
> Capacitors do run their course & have a limited life span. Constant use 24/7 & they will die/degrade MUCH quicker. If you plan on keeping a DAC for over 10+ years, it would be advisable to turn the DAC off when you know it won't be used anytime soon.


Search the thread. Rob Watts suggests leaving them on for the reasons I already explained—for example, there is no power switch on the Hugo M Scaler and it’s also a principle held by many other electronics companies. Ultimately it’s your decision, do what you feel is best.


----------



## Thenewguy007

iDesign said:


> Search the thread. Rob Watts suggests leaving them on for the reasons I already explained—it’s also a principle held by many other electronics companies. Ultimately it’s your decision, do what you feel is best.



Longevity would still be a concern. Pretty much any DAC from the '90s would need a recap. The stuff from the early '00 are probably getting there as well.

If you don't see your self with your current DAC in 15-20 years, then leaving it on standby 24/7 shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## Triode User

Thenewguy007 said:


> Longevity would still be a concern. Pretty much any DAC from the '90s would need a recap. The stuff from the early '00 are probably getting there as well.
> 
> If you don't see your self with your current DAC in 15-20 years, then leaving it on standby 24/7 shouldn't be a problem.



It is a trade off. You might think you are saving the components by your switch off method only to find they go up in a puff of smoke one of the times when you switch back on.


----------



## Hooster

Can anyone post impressions of Dave alone vs Dave with Hugo Mscaler, or if that has been done, point me in the right direction?


----------



## Christer (Sep 11, 2019)

Hooster said:


> Can anyone post impressions of Dave alone vs Dave with Hugo Mscaler, or if that has been done, point me in the right direction?



It has been discussed now and then.

I do not own a DAVE only Qutest /HMS. And during quite a few direct comparisons switching between DAVE alone and DAVE/HMS and TT2/HMS and Qutest/HMS I found that via headphones like HEKV2 or similar not so easy load ones the most important link in each chain was ALWAYS  the addition of an HMS.

As the best reasonably portable SQ to my ears I preferred  the Qutest/HMS over both TT2 and DAVE on their own.
But both TT2 /HMS and of course, DAVE /HMS sounded even better.

The most compact travel friendly option for me personally would have been a HUGO2/HMS.

But I listen quite a lot to very demanding  non compressed large scale classical symphonic and operatic music and even DAVE/BLU2 sometimes audibly clipping at loud climaxes with Susvara,DAVE BLU2 without an added headphone amp, was an absolute no go with some of my master files.

H2/HMS  showed some strain and did not deliver fff-ffff climaxes without effort even with HEKV2, so I went for Qutest and a separate  pro quality headphone amp.
TT2/HMs would have been a both bulkier and a lot more expensive but also more transparent option I may go for next.

Not quite kosher to say so here maybe,but I can still live quite happily with a slight lowering of ultimate  over all transparency,but NO risk of running out of current and power at  important climaxes in Mahler or Wagner.

 I've "Picked my poison" until I can get my hands on a cheap enough TT2 or DAVE for home use.
Cheers CC


----------



## Amberlamps

iDesign said:


> It’s the thermal cycling that kills electronics and why the DAVE and Blu Mk 2 have display 4 and standby modes.



I would say it's more electromigration that kills electronics, however thermal cycles will also do it.


----------



## tunes

What is electomigration and how is it prevented?


----------



## Amberlamps

tunes said:


> What is electomigration and how is it prevented?



It's just degradation of components when electricity is running through them. To get technical it's all about ion's and how they flow through electronic components and metals.

It's not going to kill things overnight, it will take a fair time to do it and components nowadays are not as susceptible to it as say in the 60/70s, but it's happening and given time some components will fail because of it.

To prevent it, just buy a new dave every 5 years.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromigration


----------



## musickid

I did some more calculations and 5 and a half years is spot on. Thanks.


----------



## Amberlamps (Sep 20, 2019)

Thenewguy007 said:


> Longevity would still be a concern. Pretty much any DAC from the '90s would need a recap. The stuff from the early '00 are probably getting there as well.
> 
> If you don't see your self with your current DAC in 15-20 years, then leaving it on standby 24/7 shouldn't be a problem.



If we were talking about motherboards in the late 90s early 2000s, I would be surprised if any are still working because the japanese deliberately let some chinese dude steal their super shhh "secret capacitor electrolyte formula", only for it to be fake and/or mis-copied.

That schiit is internet famous, nearly every motherboard that came out at that period and which used those caps, was dead less than 12 months later, and we ain't talking just one bad cap, we are talking nearly every capacitor on a motherboard blowing up.

Some dude made a decent living off of re-capping said mobo's, first he decapped the mobo's and then washed them in his kitchen sink with tap water.

I'm sure dfi lan party was the culprit, as their schiit just didn't work even with good caps.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague


----------



## tunes

musickid said:


> I did some more calculations and 5 and a half years is spot on. Thanks.


So we just throw the DAVE in the trash after 5.5 years and take out another loan to buy the DAVE-2.  Can’t the parts that age be tested and replaced?   That aluminum housing must be worth something??


----------



## AndrewOld

tunes said:


> So we just throw the DAVE in the trash after 5.5 years and take out another loan to buy the DAVE-2.  Can’t the parts that age be tested and replaced?   That aluminum housing must be worth something??


Yeah, it would be disgraceful trashing metalwork like that. When Linn upgrade their top end stuff they upgrade the board inside the existing casework, you get the option of having the old board back in a cheap case. This is great ethical strategy imo, and must generate serious customer loyalty.


----------



## Christer (Sep 20, 2019)

AndrewOld said:


> Yeah, it would be disgraceful trashing metalwork like that. When Linn upgrade their top end stuff they upgrade the board inside the existing casework, you get the option of having the old board back in a cheap case. This is great ethical strategy imo, and must generate serious customer loyalty.



I only own one product from LINN. But I have to say that it is still one of my best buys EVER!

And although I bought it  in London in the mid 70s, yes the MID 70s! It still works and can rival a lot of digital in musicality!
I am still using the original  cartridge the Supex MC , "diamonds are forever". But I have changed the rubber belt running the turntable a couple of times in some 40+ years. That's all!
It is called Linn Sondek LP12.
Cheers CC


----------



## Amberlamps

AndrewOld said:


> Yeah, it would be disgraceful trashing metalwork like that. When Linn upgrade their top end stuff they upgrade the board inside the existing casework, you get the option of having the old board back in a cheap case. This is great ethical strategy imo, and must generate serious customer loyalty.



Thats the kind of thing that would make me spend more money with a company.

I hate it when 6 - 18 months after you buy something a new improved model comes out and your one is no longer supported, and I hate it even more when you find out, the upgraded model is basically just a software update that enables pre disabled hardware on your product, but they deliberately keep said update from you.

Being able to upgrade in the stock case and get your old board back in a so so case really is something that would keep me loyal to a company.


----------



## musickid

5 and a half years thing was a joke btw.


----------



## AndrewOld

And at least in hindsight Chord should’ve upgraded the Blu with a new mech (as I believe they promised they would) and made the M Scaler stuff a separate product which they did in the end anyway. That way guys who had bought the original Blu would’ve been looked after rather than screwed.


----------



## Ranathum

Is there a online store selling the chord dave?


----------



## miketlse

Ranathum said:


> Is there a online store selling the chord dave?


Yes, in france for example https://www.son-video.com/article/dac-audio-usb/chord-electronics/dave-noir


----------



## JaZZ

Or in Switzerland: Audio Visual Factory


----------



## musickid (Sep 20, 2019)

Can they ship one to the UK for a lifetime trial? I did enjoy my cruise on lake zurich some years back.


----------



## ZappaMan

musickid said:


> Can they ship one to the UK for a lifetime trial? I did enjoy my cruise on lake zurich some years back.


It’s not as blue as lake Geneva


----------



## wswbd

What's the power consumption for Dave at standby mode (power on but shut off via remote)? 
Also when Dave is turned on but no input /output?


----------



## fire2368

Does anyone know what the recommended input is for the Dave?

I feel like the Hugo 2 benefits a lot from SPDIF input over USB, I don't want to assume the big brother has the same weaknesses, should it be connected directly through USB or will I still use SPDIF?


----------



## musickid

Optical is the reference.


----------



## odessamarin (Sep 26, 2019)

musickid said:


> Optical is the reference.



well, not for all (RF resistant but jitter prone).
Here is my rating of performance..
AES -> Coax -> Optical -> USB


----------



## ZappaMan

odessamarin said:


> well, not for all (RF resistant but jitter prone).
> Here is my rating of performance..
> AES -> Coax -> Optical -> USB


As in audible jitter with clicks and pops?


----------



## odessamarin

ZappaMan said:


> As in audible jitter with clicks and pops?



of course not )
for correct reconstruction of timing and transients, yes.


----------



## ZappaMan (Sep 26, 2019)

odessamarin said:


> of course not )
> for correct reconstruction of timing and transients, yes.


Interesting, maybe it’s you’re source rather than the dac? I have no idea!
Maybe rob could say, but I thought the optical stream would be error checked and if it were incorrect in any way then it would result in an audible pop.


----------



## odessamarin (Sep 26, 2019)

ZappaMan said:


> Interesting, maybe it’s you’re source rather than the dac? I have no idea!
> Maybe rob could say, but I thought the optical stream would be error checked and if it were incorrect in any way then it would result in an audible pop.



unfortunately none of present formats is error checked. we all waiting for new )
And yes, it's always about both source and DAC..  about their interconnect interface.
No DAC can do candy from crap. Sh... in sh... out.
It all starts from the source. And if you have a good one with different output options. AES is a prefered one. This is what I said.


----------



## ZappaMan

odessamarin said:


> unfortunately none of present formats is error checked. we all waiting for new )
> And yes, it's always about both source and DAC..  about their interconnect interface.
> No DAC can do candy from crap. Sh... in sh... out.
> It all starts from the source. And if you have a good one with different output options. AES is a prefered one. This is what I said.


How do connect aes to Dave via matrix ?


----------



## odessamarin

ZappaMan said:


> How do connect aes to Dave via matrix ?


Matrix?


----------



## ZappaMan

odessamarin said:


> Matrix?


Matrix spdif 2 converter


----------



## odessamarin

odessamarin said:


> Matrix?



Sorry, don't get you.
Matrix has AES out, Dave has AES input. Just get cable and connect. Or what you mean?


----------



## fire2368

odessamarin said:


> well, not for all (RF resistant but jitter prone).
> Here is my rating of performance..
> AES -> Coax -> Optical -> USB



Coax is just single right? I'm going to be using the Schiit Eitr, hopefully it's good enough.


----------



## odessamarin

fire2368 said:


> Coax is just single right? I'm going to be using the Schiit Eitr, hopefully it's good enough.


Yes, is good.


----------



## ZappaMan

odessamarin said:


> Sorry, don't get you.
> Matrix has AES out, Dave has AES input. Just get cable and connect. Or what you mean?


My mistake I thought you meant is2 method.


----------



## musickid

Eitr might introduce unwanted RF noise. Direct is best IMHO.


----------



## rkt31 (Sep 30, 2019)

I remember somebody referring PS audio snowmass dac in Dave or tt2 thread. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...f-ps-audio-perfectwave-directstream-dac.9100/ after reading above it seems PS dac can't even beat a cheap chifi dac, leave alone even mojo.


----------



## jlbrach

nonsense, ps audio ios a terrific dac right up there with the very best


----------



## Deftone (Sep 29, 2019)

jlbrach said:


> nonsense, ps audio ios a terrific dac right up there with the very best



You still can't ignore how bad that looks, do you think Rob would release even a "mojo tier" DAC in that state?


----------



## jlbrach

huh?


----------



## tunes

jlbrach said:


> huh?


English please.


----------



## theveterans

jlbrach said:


> nonsense, ps audio ios a terrific dac right up there with the very best



It measures very bad objectively to the point that listeners think the sound difference is due to extra distortion from the signal path


----------



## ecwl

@tunes, I think @jlbrach is asking @Deftone what he meant. And I think @Deftone meant even if PS Audio Directstream sounds euphonic and is considered a top DAC by many people, Rob Watts would not release a DAC would euphonic sound if the audio measurements are technically so poor. Because @Deftone thinks it simply looks bad for the company and designer to release a DAC that measures poorly.

I personally think that there are many audio products that measure poorly that many designers and companies are very proud of. And there are many consumers who love buying these products and would defend them endlessly. I figured, it’s their money so who am I to judge. For myself, I find that great measurements don’t guarantee great sound. But poor measurements always sound subpar to me. Being slightly judgmental myself and thinking that this Chord forum is a safe space, I think people who love poor measurements just don’t know what to listen for, or they just love the distortion. But like I said, if they like what they hear, it’s their money, koodos to them.


----------



## jlbrach

ok, as one who owns both the chord and the ps audio I say again nonsense but you are entitled to your opinion


----------



## rkt31

This $13k dac was a regular feature in Dave thread and does not better even $100 khadas tone board. Can't believe. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...and-measurements-of-totaldac-d1-six-dac.8192/


----------



## bidn (Sep 30, 2019)

rkt31 said:


> This $13k dac was a regular feature in Dave thread and does not better even $100 khadas tone board. Can't believe. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...and-measurements-of-totaldac-d1-six-dac.8192/



Hold on, there is much stronger!
The TotalDAC Live Power  power supply: cost = €1200.
What's inside?:
a mere transformer ( cost = maybe a few dozen euros),  connected internally (with the _*cheapest and most unsafe and outdated*_ kind of internal connectors) to the output, and believe it or not!, not even a diode bridge rectifier nor any filtering, regulation =  with those missing, this thing is actually not even a power supply, by definition... but a mere transformer component ...!

You can check this pic on the TotalDAC site itself:






... = € 1200...!!! Unbelievable but true, I guess if the pic is on the TotalDAC site, then the TotalDAC customers may not have much clue about the pricing of what they are buying...

Be happy to get instead top performance and quality engineering and quality components with Chord  !


----------



## rkt31

bidn said:


> Hold on, there is much stronger!
> The TotalDAC Live Power  power supply: cost = €1200.
> What's inside?:
> a mere transformer ( cost maybe a few dozen euros),  connected internally (with the cheapest and most unsafe outdated kind of connectors) to the output, and believe it or not!, not even a diode bridge rectifier nor any filtering, regulation =  with those missing, this thing is actually not even a power supply, by definition... but a mere transformer component ...!
> ...


Unbelievable ! It all boils down to professional honesty and confidence. In case of Dave rob is confident of his tech so he is not hesitant about discussing the tech openly. He has the backing of measurement done by himself.


----------



## musickid (Sep 30, 2019)

We live in a jungle and i must be like a jaguar....... Seriously....research things thoroughly before hand.


----------



## kerisabe

Is there any gryphon diablo 300 owners here ? Im still running qutest now w the diablo 300. Wondering if any of you had ever compared the optional diablo 300 dac and the dac running with the diablo 300. Thanks!


----------



## ecwl

kerisabe said:


> Is there any gryphon diablo 300 owners here ? Im still running qutest now w the diablo 300. Wondering if any of you had ever compared the optional diablo 300 dac and the dac running with the diablo 300. Thanks!


No Diablo 300 here. But I did notice on the Diablo 300 specs, the input sensitivity is listed as 0.617V which seems odd and a little low but moreover, the DAC module for Diablo 300 is listed to have an output level on the balanced line as 2.15V which probably is to accomodate for the Diablo 300's input sensitivity. If these measurements are true, you may have to set your Qutest to output to 1V and not 2V/3V to ensure that the Qutest does not clip your Diablo 300 to get the optimal sound from Diablo 300. Not sure because manufacturers measure the same thing differently.


----------



## kerisabe

ecwl said:


> No Diablo 300 here. But I did notice on the Diablo 300 specs, the input sensitivity is listed as 0.617V which seems odd and a little low but moreover, the DAC module for Diablo 300 is listed to have an output level on the balanced line as 2.15V which probably is to accomodate for the Diablo 300's input sensitivity. If these measurements are true, you may have to set your Qutest to output to 1V and not 2V/3V to ensure that the Qutest does not clip your Diablo 300 to get the optimal sound from Diablo 300. Not sure because manufacturers measure the same thing differently.



thanks for the suggestion of the qutest output voltage which yes I did set at 1v, the sound clips when i set it above 1v. I hope there are more people replying to my question regarding the dave vs the diablo 300 optional dac. Ive also just read the combination of dave/mscaler beats the dcs bartok hands down. Is it true?


----------



## x RELIC x

kerisabe said:


> thanks for the suggestion of the qutest output voltage which yes I did set at 1v, the sound clips when i set it above 1v. I hope there are more people replying to my question regarding the dave vs the diablo 300 optional dac. Ive also just read the combination of dave/mscaler beats the dcs bartok hands down. Is it true?



I haven’t heard the diablo 300 optional DAC, but I noticed it’s based on the ESS9018 DAC chip. Now, DAC implementation is very important and I don’t know how the diablo 300 optional DAC implementation sounds, but I have heard a few ESS9018 DACS in the past. On average they sounded bright, brittle, ‘smeared’, and lacking depth in comparison to the DAVE. The one ESS9018 implementation I heard that was warmer also sounded softer with less impact.

You have to understand that what Rob Watts has invented with his Pulse Array DAC and using his WTA filters is very different from anything else on the market and far superior to off-the-shelf DACs like the ESS9018 with regard to accurate transient timing, depth, and re-creating the original analogue performance (depending on the recording method for the track). You may subjectively prefer one implementation over the other but the only way to tell is to audition, but technically the DAVE is far superior.

I have no comment on the DCS Bartok as I haven’t heard it.


----------



## xxx1313

The only ESS9018 implementation that I ever liked was Sennheiser's HE 1. Nevertheless I think that DAVE + HMS is even more capable.


----------



## kerisabe

Thanks for the inputs guys. From what ive heard the optional diablo 300 is the “economic” downgraded version of the gryphon kalliope dac (70-80%) with a fraction of the price with a more direct connection (less cables etc) cause its installed internally in the amp.

anyone else has any experience with these items???


----------



## dac64

kerisabe said:


> the optional diablo 300 is the “economic” downgraded version of the gryphon kalliope dac (70-80%) with a fraction of the price with a more direct connection (less cables etc) cause its installed internally in the amp.



Good buy!


----------



## supabayes

xxx1313 said:


> The only ESS9018 implementation that I ever liked was Sennheiser's HE 1. Nevertheless I think that DAVE + HMS is even more capable.


Yes. The built in DAC of HE1 is not even close to Dave.


----------



## supabayes

kerisabe said:


> thanks for the suggestion of the qutest output voltage which yes I did set at 1v, the sound clips when i set it above 1v. I hope there are more people replying to my question regarding the dave vs the diablo 300 optional dac. Ive also just read the combination of dave/mscaler beats the dcs bartok hands down. Is it true?



i have the diablo300 with dave+hms and it is excellent combination for driving both speakers and headphones. my dave is in dac mode and the diablo has never clipped. going to try with my qutest to see if changing the voltage will matter.

i have never seen the need to consider the optional gryphon dac because i wasn’t impressed with the built in dac of the HE1. it was lacking the clarity and detail of dave.

the only advantage with optional gryphon dac space saving and doing away with external dac. if space is not a constrain, personally i think that as qutest owner, you will enjoy adding hms to pair with the qutest if you haven’t done so yet. and it is easy to upgrade further by replacing the qutest with tt2 or dave. to me, dave+hms is end game. go this direction if you like what the qutest+hms is giving over the qutest alone. 

i heard the dcs bartok couple of times at show condition. it is no doubt a great dac/headphone amp.


----------



## kerisabe (Oct 12, 2019)

Thanks for sharing. Which source are you feeding the mscaler with? Im still kind if against the idea of the millions mod when adding mscaler. Also the power cable upgrade for dave, the psu for mscaler, upgraded bnc, optodx?

but im pretty sure music is amazing in your setup w the dave/mscaler combo feeding diablo 300, audio nirvana i wish im close by so i can experience it in person. 



supabayes said:


> i have the diablo300 with dave+hms and it is excellent combination for driving both speakers and headphones. my dave is in dac mode and the diablo has never clipped. going to try with my qutest to see if changing the voltage will matter.
> 
> i have never seen the need to consider the optional gryphon dac because i wasn’t impressed with the built in dac of the HE1. it was lacking the clarity and detail of dave.
> 
> ...


----------



## supabayes

kerisabe said:


> Thanks for sharing. Which source are you feeding the mscaler with? Im still kind if against the idea of the millions mod when adding mscaler. Also the power cable upgrade for dave, the psu for mscaler, upgraded bnc, optodx?
> 
> but im pretty sure music is amazing in your setup w the dave/mscaler combo feeding diablo 300, audio nirvana i wish im close by so i can experience it in person.



yes, it is a little work to optimise connection/power/cables. that’s the fun part to get the ultimate sound.

my source is roon to trinnov amethyst and then hms+dave. trinnov amethyst is roon end point and more importantly for digital room optimisation to clean up excessive bass due to room mode standing waves. it also does frequency and phase correction for my speaker. the effect is mind blowing despite my speaker set up being in a room with treatment including PSI active bass traps. this probably sounds like too much trouble if you are avoiding the hms.


----------



## audio_1

kerisabe said:


> Thanks for sharing. Which source are you feeding the mscaler with? Im still kind if against the idea of the millions mod when adding mscaler. Also the power cable upgrade for dave, the psu for mscaler, upgraded bnc, optodx?
> 
> but im pretty sure music is amazing in your setup w the dave/mscaler combo feeding diablo 300, audio nirvana i wish im close by so i can experience it in person.



There is no other way in real time (or other DAC) to reconstruct the original analogue wave form to 16 bit accuracy other than using the mScaler or Blu2. The Blu2 or mScaler is a huge upgrade for the Dave. The Opto-Dx is also a really worth while upgrade as it allows using a laptop as a source instead of an expensive streamer. It also allows locating the digital components away from the Dave and power amplifiers to prevent RFI. Thirdly the Opto-DX reduces the influence of a power cord upgrade for the Dave. A dedicated power line from the distribution unit for the Dave and analogue parts of the system can be used without creating ground loops. The digital sources and mScaler can be plugged into a standard power socket. The dedicated power line for the Dave and power amplifiers should be routed as far as possible away from the power line for the digital components in the system.


----------



## tunes

I have the iBasso DX220 and use it as a transport for my Flac music files with the CHORD DAVE DAC and HMS up-sampler.  I haven’t used any WiFi music streaming services yet with the DAP but was wondering if I can stream music via optical out to the DAVE from the DX220?  How is this done? 

Thanks


----------



## strolee

Need some assistance please from the group. I just set up my newly purchased Dave, which I have put in the place of my TT2. When I connect the Dave to my WA33 headphone amp and use the Dave as a DAC, everything works beautifully. I am feeding it by USB with a Roon setup on my Macbook. The Dave also is working great directly as a headphone amp. However, when I insert my HMS into the mix, which previously worked flawlessly in the same set up but with the TT2, I am now getting intermittent drop off of sound and a bit of intermittent background noise coming from my left headphone. The display on the Dave also occasionally flickers, together with the sound. There must be a setting or something that I am missing, possibly on the Dave or in Roon? I tried reversing the ports on the BNC cables, and changing some of the settings on the Dave, but the result was the same. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## jlbrach

sound like a bnc cable issue


----------



## strolee

Don't think it's the BNC cables as they work fine with my TT2/HMS set up.


----------



## ray-dude (Oct 14, 2019)

Try switching to the other BNC pair on the DAVE.  The DAVE is more sensitive to dual BNC (DX) sync than TT2. 

If you're still having issues, try single BNC from each HMS out to each DAVE in, and see if the 352kHz signal is stable. Try with each of your cables.  If unstable, you won't get a dual BNC sync (705/768kHZ)


----------



## BreadMaster

can we get a cut down version of the chord dave without that amp?  just make it a dedicated desktop dac without that 10k price tag.


----------



## Musikfan

ray-dude said:


> Try switching to the other BNC pair on the DAVE.  The DAVE is more sensitive to dual BNC (DX) sync than TT2.
> 
> If you're still having issues, try single BNC from each HMS out to each DAVE in, and see if the 352kHz signal is stable. Try with each of your cables.  If unstable, you won't get a dual BNC sync (705/768kHZ)



I had very similar problems when using certain BNC cable brands. I could not get dual bnc setting to work and the Dave's display would flicker and I got crackling, etc.  The BNC cables that worked for me were the Moon Silver Dragons ( to which I added ferrite cores) and the Wave Streams.  I settled on the Wave Stream cables which are very well built and sounded fuller than the Moon Audio cables.  Both cables were really good though. I'd recommend them both.   I think it might in partt be a BNC connector issue.  Both the Wave and Moon Audio cables have really good connectors that attach firmly.  Anyway, that's my 2 cents.  Hope it helps.  Thanks, James


----------



## FunkyBassMan

BreadMaster said:


> can we get a cut down version of the chord dave without that amp?  just make it a dedicated desktop dac without that 10k price tag.



I'd love to see a Dave/M-Scaler in one box.  I'd buy that in a heartbeat.


----------



## x RELIC x

BreadMaster said:


> can we get a cut down version of the chord dave without that amp?  just make it a dedicated desktop dac without that 10k price tag.



You can’t cut the ‘amp’ out of the DAVE, or any of Rob Watts’ current DAC designs. The analogue out of Rob’s DAC design is more akin to the line-out of most other DACs. There is only one analogue stage that includes the critical I to V conversion, buffer, filter and gain compared to the complicated and distortion inducing 4 stages in the amp of other DAC/amp combos.

Basically you can’t separate the sound of Rob’s DAC from it’s analogue output and when using DAC mode it’s nothing more than a fixed volume preset. Nothing internally is bypassed.


----------



## Triode User

FunkyBassMan said:


> I'd love to see a Dave/M-Scaler in one box.  I'd buy that in a heartbeat.



Rob has several times said it is not currently feasible. Keeping them separate also means that people can keep their HMS whilst migrating up the DAC range.


----------



## FunkyBassMan

Triode User said:


> Rob has several times said it is not currently feasible. Keeping them separate also means that people can keep their HMS whilst migrating up the DAC range.



Thanks, I guess I somehow missed those comments by him.

Would you happen to have a link?


----------



## ecwl

FunkyBassMan said:


> Thanks, I guess I somehow missed those comments by him.
> 
> Would you happen to have a link?


     Post #172
Specifically, the quote would be... "Now depth perception is a major thing with Dave - and that is down to resolving small signals absolutely perfectly, with no changes in amplitude. Having a chip next to the pulse array elements injecting 10A peak of weakly signal correlated current would destroy that ability, so using a separate M scaler would be easily the best sounding option."


----------



## racebit

x RELIC x said:


> You can’t cut the ‘amp’ out of the DAVE, or any of Rob Watts’ current DAC designs. The analogue out of Rob’s DAC design is more akin to the line-out of most other DACs. There is only one analogue stage that includes the critical I to V conversion, buffer, filter and gain compared to the complicated and distortion inducing 4 stages in the amp of other DAC/amp combos.
> 
> Basically you can’t separate the sound of Rob’s DAC from it’s analogue output and when using DAC mode it’s nothing more than a fixed volume preset. Nothing internally is bypassed.


Technically you are 100% correct. However there is Qutest, same DAC as H2, but 2/3 the price.
But Qutest has an amp similar to Mojo, but "fixed" to line out and without volume control.
But I guess doing the "Qutest treatment" to Dave would translate to much smaller relative cost decrease, given the much higher cost of Dave.


----------



## FunkyBassMan

ecwl said:


> Post #172
> Specifically, the quote would be... "Now depth perception is a major thing with Dave - and that is down to resolving small signals absolutely perfectly, with no changes in amplitude. Having a chip next to the pulse array elements injecting 10A peak of weakly signal correlated current would destroy that ability, so using a separate M scaler would be easily the best sounding option."



Thanks very much!


----------



## x RELIC x

racebit said:


> Technically you are 100% correct. However there is Qutest, same DAC as H2, but 2/3 the price.
> But Qutest has an amp similar to Mojo, but "fixed" to line out and without volume control.
> But I guess doing the "Qutest treatment" to Dave would translate to much smaller relative cost decrease, given the much higher cost of Dave.



you’re correct about the Qutest, but I agree, I’m not sure it would translate to significant savings on the DAVE. I guess only Rob and Chord will know...


----------



## tunes

I am about to give up my Aurender N100H for a reasonable offer. I used it literally twice since purchase a few years ago and decided to use my DAP with optical out as a transport instead. It’s essentially brand new! 

Please PM me if you have any interest.


----------



## Drewligarchy

x RELIC x said:


> you’re correct about the Qutest, but I agree, I’m not sure it would translate to significant savings on the DAVE. I guess only Rob and Chord will know...



I don't think it would lead to any savings on the Dave. While I truthfully don't know, I think adding or removing the headphone output on the Dave is relatively trivial from an engineering perspective and cost wise. Qutest exists to fulfill the entry level Chord Dac market segment. It's a fantastic DAC regardless of price. I'm sure the bill of materials for DAVE are much, much lower than the retail cost. Chord charges what they do because of R&D, and it's what the market would bear. Do I think it's worth it - yes! I have one and I'd buy it again.

I don't see any reason for Chord to create a DAC that sits in between Dave and TT2. It would cannibalize the sales of Dave and I can't imagine volume would increase that much at that level to offset the price difference.


----------



## Drewligarchy

My experience with playing with Digital Cables with Dave / Mscaler has led me to believe that the differences in digital cables are entirely due to handling RFI and noise. I was always skeptical of digital cables because the data is encoded, but this makes sense to me and provides at least a potential scientific explanation for differences in sound.

For that reason, when using Toslink with a Chord Dac - or most modern Dacs where Jitter is a minor issue - leads me to believe that their really aren't any differences in toslink cables that work. Sure, glass may allow you to transfer higher bandwidth over longer distances - but if we really do take jitter out of the equation (I can't hear it at least) - are there really any differences on Toslink cables?

IMO, analog cables do affect the sound as they - in many cases - act as a filter.


----------



## Drewligarchy

strolee said:


> Don't think it's the BNC cables as they work fine with my TT2/HMS set up.



Still think it might be BNC cables. I think the Dave is more sensitive on the BNCs than the TT2. I think Chord managed to make them more stable on the TT2. I had the same issue with stock cables, but when I used different cables, I didn't have an issue any longer.

I would also try the other inputs as suggested as that worked for me too. With certain cables, though, both set of inputs work flawlessly.


----------



## iDesign (Oct 16, 2019)

Drewligarchy said:


> I don't see any reason for Chord to create a DAC that sits in between Dave and TT2. It would cannibalize the sales of Dave and I can't imagine volume would increase that much at that level to offset the price difference.


Agreed. A DAVE without a headphone input is never going to happen and would be completely pointless.  It would make more sense for someone to just purchase a secondhand DAVE if they could not afford a new unit.


----------



## adyc

strolee said:


> Don't think it's the BNC cables as they work fine with my TT2/HMS set up.



According to dmance, the mechanism of detecting dual rate is much more robust with TT2 than Dave. So I would try a new set of BNC cables.


----------



## tunes

iDesign said:


> Agreed. A DAVE without a headphone input is never going to happen and would be completely pointless.  It would make more sense for someone to just purchase a secondhand DAVE if they could not afford a new unit.


Well.  If there is a used DAVE on the market, I want to know what DAC they “upgraded” to.


----------



## iDesign (Oct 16, 2019)

tunes said:


> Well.  If there is a used DAVE on the market, I want to know what DAC they “upgraded” to.


I suspect most are cutting back on spending (and rogue dealers selling them at wholesale). There are many for sale:
https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=Chord+dave


----------



## tunes

iDesign said:


> I suspect most are cutting back on spending (and rogue dealers selling them at wholesale). There are many for sale:
> https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=Chord+dave


That’s sad that so many went over budget, didn’t like the SQ DAVE can offer or wanted something better??


----------



## jacc

Hi. I have been using dual bnc output of blu mk2 without any problem. This morning I tried using a single bnc cable via the "single bnc output", but sample rate is only showing 176.4 (instead of 352) on DAVE. Just wondering if anyone of you are using the single bnc output to DAVE? I have also checked the upsample toggle switch but no help.


----------



## fire2368

Potentially stupid question. 

I like the crossfeed implementation a lot on the Dave but I like using my external tube amp, to keep the crossfeed into the amp do I just connect it out of the headphone out and set to -3dB?

Does anyone else do this?


----------



## ray-dude

I learned the hard way that once you set cross feed with headphone plugged in, it stays on even when using the RCA or XLR outs on the back (even if you can’t see it on the display)

headphone has to be plugged in to see the cross fade setting or change it, but it is on for all outputs


----------



## ecwl

fire2368 said:


> Potentially stupid question.
> 
> I like the crossfeed implementation a lot on the Dave but I like using my external tube amp, to keep the crossfeed into the amp do I just connect it out of the headphone out and set to -3dB?
> 
> Does anyone else do this?


That is not even necessary because crossfeed is ON for the headphones jack, RCA and XLR outputs if you turn it on with headphones plugged in. And it stays on when you unplug the headphones even though you cannot see the setting on the display. 
That was part of the DAVE’s design. Great for Head-fi people, even those who want to use external tube amp.
But it can be annoying for people like me who switches between headphones and speakers as I always turn on crossfeed for headphones but I don’t always remember to turn off crossfeed before unplugging the headphones so I ended up getting unwanted crossfeed from my speakers.


----------



## fire2368

Did not realise that, should have probably tried to listen to it first before applying my own thoughts.


----------



## thomaskong78

I received new HD 800S headphone yesterday.
Without any break-in, it did not show any hard edge.

Some IEM like Hifiman need more than 100 hours of break in before harsh treble is gone.

But after playing it for few hours, it seems to show more details and bass resonance.

From the review, I had expected HD 800S to sound bright and be prepared to apply equalization using Lyngdorf 2170 presets.

But driven by Chord Dave and Mscaler, it sounds neutral without any equalization.

I had played Chesky Jazz Sampler and Test disc to test soundstage width and depth.

It shows very sharp and precise focus but falls short of my 2 channel system in soundstage width and depth.

But placement of instrument is more precise with HD 800S than my 2 channel system of Lanshe 4.1 driven by Line Magnetic 508SET.

When I play "Surround Sound Demonstration CD" by Telarc, HD 800S gave very exciting presentation with fast and tight bass and precise focus without any hard edge.

I have two headphones and one IEM to compare with HD 800S.

The first one is 1MORE Triple-Driver Over-Ear Headphones sold by Drop at 130$.

This is light, pretty efficient and excellent value at 130$.

But compared with HD 800S, 1MORE Triple gave loose bass, less details and not precise focus.

1MORE Triple is no match at all with HD 800S.


The next one is Empire Zeus IEM sold by Drop(1k$ and 14 drivers in it).

Zeus IEM gave more sparkle with nice details.

But without equalization of 3db down at 6khz, Zeus sounds too bright overall while HD 800S sounds neutral without any eq..

Nice thing of Zeus IEM is very high efficiency to be driven by regular cell phone like Galaxy Note4.

Thus I will be happy to carry Zeus IEM out of town.

The placement of each instrument is slightly more precise with HD800s.

I will prefer playing HD800S to Zeus IEM at home.

The last one to compare is Stax 009S driven by KGSSV Carbon amplifier.

HD 800S gave wider and deeper soundstage than Stax 009S with more precise focus.

But Stax 009S give more musical sound with nuanced details, nice decay , more bass slam and texture.

HD800S give very tight and fast bass but not matching the authority of Stax 009s.

It bass sound like one note without texture.


The conclusion is that it is fun to listen to HD800S driven by Chord Dave and Mscaler with sharp focus, wide and deep soundstage and tight and fast bass.

But HD800S falls short of either Stax 009s or my 2 channel system in musicality.

I will keep HD800S for at least one year to enjoy its precise imaging.

Thomas


----------



## thomaskong78

ecwl said:


> That is not even necessary because crossfeed is ON for the headphones jack, RCA and XLR outputs if you turn it on with headphones plugged in. And it stays on when you unplug the headphones even though you cannot see the setting on the display.
> That was part of the DAVE’s design. Great for Head-fi people, even those who want to use external tube amp.
> But it can be annoying for people like me who switches between headphones and speakers as I always turn on crossfeed for headphones but I don’t always remember to turn off crossfeed before unplugging the headphones so I ended up getting unwanted crossfeed from my speakers.


After reading your post, I changed Crossfeed setting from 3 to 1.

With 1 setting, my 2 channel system does not get harmed in soundstage width and depth.

Thomas


----------



## onlychild

thomaskong78 said:


> After reading your post, I changed Crossfeed setting from 3 to 1.
> 
> With 1 setting, my 2 channel system does not get harmed in soundstage width and depth.
> 
> Thomas




Cross-feed should be turned off completely for speakers and can only be changed when headphones are plugged into DAVE


----------



## iDesign (Nov 1, 2019)

I have tired each of the corssfeed settings on the DAVE but ultimately preferred the off setting (except for mono recordings). As an aside, I was part of the early Qobuz USA beta and cancelled it several weeks after it was launched due to the poor selection. Over the past few months TIDAL has infuriatingly been posting/replacing more albums that are now *only in MQA format* and I decided to opt into Qobuz again. Thus far I am finding Qobuz has worked hard to onboard more suppliers and their 24/92 sound quality is significantly better than MQA albums begrudgingly played through the DAVE+Blu MKII.


----------



## jacc

iDesign said:


> I have tired each of the corssfeed settings on the DAVE but ultimately preferred the off setting (except for mono recordings). As an aside, I was part of the early Qobuz USA beta and cancelled it several weeks after it was launched due to the poor selection. Over the past few months TIDAL has infuriatingly been posting/replacing more albums that are now *only in MQA format* and I decided to opt into Qobuz again. Thus far, I am finding Qobuz has worked hard to onboard more suppliers and their 24/92 sound quality is significantly better than MQA albums begrudgingly played through the DAVE+Blu MKII.



I haven't tried Qobuz but agree that Tidal MQA sound a bit thin and bright through bludave


----------



## iDesign (Nov 1, 2019)

jacc said:


> I haven't tried Qobuz but agree that Tidal MQA sound a bit thin and bright through bludave


I feel MQA tracks played from TIDAL had a collapsed, dull sound with less spatial information when compared to Qobuz. I have previously written about the various methods streaming services allow artists and labels to submit albums and it is difficult to fully know the provenance of the albums and how they are modified with headers etc etc. We can't assume albums posted to any streaming service are perfect to begin with, in fact, there are many people who have analyzed them and found problems-- this is why I continue to purchase CDs.


----------



## KMann

iDesign said:


> I feel MQA tracks played from TIDAL had a collapsed, dull sound with less spatial information when compared to Qobuz.


I have the same experience when using DAVE + HMS and MQA via tidal. I listen to both Tidal and Qobuz, Tidal still has a larger selection and switch to Qobuz when the album is available.


----------



## xxx1313

Regarding the planned digital amp by Chord Electronics, I would have a few questions. Will its target group be mostly those who have a speaker setup or also headphone only listeners? As a digital amp will also have to convert digital to analog, can we expect it to contain a DAC section of similar quality to DAVE (probably with even better pulse array elements and analog components), right? Maybe @Rob Watts, John Franks or other people with more insight than me can comment. Thanks!


----------



## Triode User

xxx1313 said:


> Regarding the planned digital amp by Chord Electronics, I would have a few questions. Will its target group be mostly those who have a speaker setup or also headphone only listeners? As a digital amp will also have to convert digital to analog, can we expect it to contain a DAC section of similar quality to DAVE (probably with even better pulse array elements and analog components), right? Maybe @Rob Watts, John Franks or other people with more insight than me can comment. Thanks!



The info you ask is probably hidden by the volume of posts but basically the digital amps will be capable of being plugged straight into the MScaler without the need for an intermediate DAC. The signal from the MScaler can contain volume information. The power amps will be intended to be used with speakers. An ‘integrated’ amp was mentioned and which would have a headphone outlet. For those of us with Blu2 and Dave, the Dave would plug into the digital amp and would provide volume control because unlike the MScaler the Blu2 cannot control volume when plugged directly into one of the digital amps. The integrated version of the digital amp implies a volume control and so might allow Blu2 to be plugged direct into it but that is my guess. 

This is all as remembered from posts a while ago and it is possible I might have misremembered bits or that plans have changed. Others might be able to correct or fill in the missing bits.


----------



## ecwl

xxx1313 said:


> Regarding the planned digital amp by Chord Electronics, I would have a few questions. Will its target group be mostly those who have a speaker setup or also headphone only listeners? As a digital amp will also have to convert digital to analog, can we expect it to contain a DAC section of similar quality to DAVE (probably with even better pulse array elements and analog components), right? Maybe @Rob Watts, John Franks or other people with more insight than me can comment. Thanks!


I have been thinking a lot about this question too.
Even though Rob Watts and John Franks design their products for Chord, I think they are as much collaborators as competitors in some ways. They have said so before, particularly in the area of amplifications. I think this type of healthy competition is what improves Chord products. 
John Franks last commented on the digital amp in September 2018 where he doesn't think Rob Watts is ready to make digital amplifiers of higher power any time soon (he said a few years although I suspect that might be slightly hyperbolic)
Rob Watts has said that he is busy working on new products but not the ADC so presumably, he has been busy working on digital amp in 2019. But he also recently said he is in super busy mode with no end in sight in October 2019. Not sure if that means the product is close to being finished or whether it means he is stumped.
The only existing digital amp is really the Hugo TT 2 with its 8W unbalanced and 18W balanced output and 10-element pulse array
My personal suspicion based on how confident John Franks was is that it is difficult to scale up the power of the digital amp based on Rob Watts' design. I'm sure Rob Watts is out there to prove him wrong. If you go way back, I think the analog amplifier that Rob Watts designed with the most power is Deltec DPA50S which can go to 50W into 8 ohms. I suspect the challenge is that to get the best sound possible, you need some sort of forward feedback/noise shaping in order to avoid distortions particularly in the high frequency but once you ramp up the power, the amp might become more and more unstable. But this is pure conjecture. I think this is why John Franks thinks it'll be a challenge for Rob Watts to solve this problem. Not sure.
At the end of the day, we don't know how many elements the next digital amplifier will have, how much power it would push through, it's all speculation, like basically my entire post. And I know I don't know what I'm talking about as I have no engineering background.
Either way, I think when John Franks and Rob Watts are ready to announce the product, they will. Sometimes, Rob Watts can't stop telling us prior to the product being ready which is a lot of fun. And I'm sure the product will be amazing.
I figured that if the new digital amp when announced has enough power to drive my speakers, then I will buy it. Or else, I'll stick with my Chord Etude until the they release a higher powered version of the digital amp. Either way, I just assumed it'll be priced comparably to the Etude/Ultima line if the power of the digital amplifiers is in the same ballpark.


----------



## EndGameSearch (Nov 2, 2019)

@Rob Watts

Have you recently changed any of the components within the Daves you are currently shipping?  Perhaps Chord changed to a different type of BNC input connectors?

Here’s my issue....

I sold my Dave and BluMK2 a while back and bought a TT2 and HMS.   A few months later I was missing Dave’s amazing transparency so bought another Dave and HMS for a different room.  I’ll quickly summarize what was actually countless hours of trouble shooting.  BNC input 1 and 2 are horrible.  The music cuts in and out and there is a constant crackling noise that sounds more like direct contact electrical interference.  With Input 3 and 4 it’s much better, but there is a popping / clicking noise in the right channel that can occur every few seconds, every 30 seconds, and it’s even disappeared for a few mins at times.  It’s completely silent when the music is paused.  When you start the music the noise begins in the right channel.  Pause the music again and the pops and clicks continue for a couple seconds.  It almost sounds like there’s a short or a charge is being released.  My dealer was kind enough to send me his personal Dave which is fairly old (with the curved glass over the screen vs the flat glass on the new models).  Dropping his Dave in place the problem went away.  Dropping my TT2 in place the problem went away.  I received another new Dave but the exact same problem was there again.  Horrible on 1 and 2, better but still not acceptable with 3 and 4.  I’ve taking every step you imagine to isolate the problem.  From cutting power to unused circuits in my house, to moving the system to other rooms and testing each component in the chain.  With HMS in bypass mode there are no issues.  The same goes when I upsample to 176.  As soon as it goes into DBNC the problem appears (just in the right channel) I’ve used the stock cables which exaggerated the issue.  Pulse AG cables which helped but just a little, and I used the Wave BNC cables with the same results.  I finally brought my AudioWise OPTO DX into the mix and the problem goes away.  So now I have a working Dave, but I shouldn’t have to spend on OPTO DX and two UpTone LPS 1.2’s just to get HMS and Dave working.  I tend to rotate my gear fairly quickly so now I am concerned about resell.  It’s working for me, but as is I couldn’t sell it to someone without disclosing the issue. 

Has anyone else experienced this problem with a new Dave?  I suspect Chord changed something and Dave is simply more sensitive than TT2.  The fact that an older Dave works and two new Daves have the same problem is quite telling.  However, I really do not want to send it off to be repaired.  This process has taken nearly two months and I’m tired of either going without music, or only being able to partially upsample the music.  Dave on it’s own works just fine.  The problem only arises when in dual BNC mode.

Thoughts will be appreciated....

(Edit - making a long post even longer - Even with the OPTO DX in place, I still hear an occasional pop/click in the right channel (and no, it’s not the HP or cable))


----------



## iDesign

EndGameSearch said:


> ”...Dave which is fairly old (with the curved glass over the screen vs the flat glass on the new models).“


I never noticed this before and now I’m curious to know what is the first DAVE serial number that had the flat glass. This must have been a very early running change.


----------



## bidn (Nov 2, 2019)

EndGameSearch said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> Have you recently changed any of the components within the Daves you are currently shipping?  Perhaps Chord changed to a different type of BNC input connectors?
> 
> ...




Hi EndGameSearch,

I didn't experience the same issue, but one which may be related when I auditioned the HMS --> Dave combo and other DAC-amp at my dealer a while ago.
I reported about this audition in the Utopia thread:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/focal-utopia-general-discussion.811273/page-735#post-15188208
but not about the issue as it seemed specific to the HMS  --> Dave combination (so unrelated to the Utopia).

The issue I had was that, each time I swapped to another of my test tracks, I would hear an annoying "click" noise,
for me it was quite loud but I listen at super low volume levels.
The dealer tried to solve the issue by changing some settings in his streaming system,
but the result of this change was only that it shifted the click noise from the left channel to the right channel.
I didn't have this issue with the other DAC-amps I auditioned that day (before or after the HMS->Dave),
nor with the Dave alone at numerous previous times, as I normally use my dealer's Dave and streaming system when auditioning headphones there.

I don't know how old the dealer's Dave is, I would rather assume he has always been using the same one -- in this case it would be an old one -- but he may as well have changed it.

Hoping some people will have helpful answers,
bidn


----------



## EndGameSearch

bidn said:


> Hi EndGameSearch,
> 
> I didn't experience the same issue, but one which may be related when I auditioned the HMS --> Dave combo and other DAC-amp at my dealer a while ago.
> I reported about this audition in the Utopia thread:
> ...


Appreciate the response. I’ve eliminated my streamer from the equation by using different sources and even different m scalers while trouble shooting.


----------



## audio_1

bidn said:


> Hi EndGameSearch,
> 
> I didn't experience the same issue, but one which may be related when I auditioned the HMS --> Dave combo and other DAC-amp at my dealer a while ago.
> I reported about this audition in the Utopia thread:
> ...



The clicks are caused by tracks having different sample rates. The Dave clicks when the track sample rate changes. The clicks can be eliminated by stopping playback of one track before commencing playback of one with a different sample rate. This works 99% of the time in my system. I only very occasionally get clicks after starting playback or changing sources. Always mute sources when changing them or Dave will also click.


----------



## bidn

audio_1 said:


> The clicks are caused by tracks having different sample rates. The Dave clicks when the track sample rate changes. The clicks can be eliminated by stopping playback of one track before commencing playback of one with a different sample rate. This works 99% of the time in my system. I only very occasionally get clicks after starting playback or changing sources. Always mute sources when changing them or Dave will also click.



Thank you audio_1,

however all these tracks related to the issue have the same sampling rate = 44,1 kHz. 
They do differ though by having a different (lossless compression) bitrate.
Also I didn't use to have this issue with the Dave alone, but only with the combination HMS -> Dave.


----------



## miketlse

ecwl said:


> I have been thinking a lot about this question too.
> Even though Rob Watts and John Franks design their products for Chord, I think they are as much collaborators as competitors in some ways. They have said so before, particularly in the area of amplifications. I think this type of healthy competition is what improves Chord products.
> John Franks last commented on the digital amp in September 2018 where he doesn't think Rob Watts is ready to make digital amplifiers of higher power any time soon (he said a few years although I suspect that might be slightly hyperbolic)
> Rob Watts has said that he is busy working on new products but not the ADC so presumably, he has been busy working on digital amp in 2019. But he also recently said he is in super busy mode with no end in sight in October 2019. Not sure if that means the product is close to being finished or whether it means he is stumped.


Yes John did state that the digital amps were still a few years away https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-806#post-14442312
You get a hint of the Rob + John relationship in this post

To me, it feels similar to a Technology Readiness Level (TRL) pyramid:

 
Rob probably discusses many TRL 1 ideas with John (including digital amps, davina, mscalers, dacs, etc).
It is still unclear whether the digital amps have reached TRL 2 yet.
However what is clear is that for Chord, 2019 which is their 30th anniversary, has been focused on analogue products (especially analogue amplifiers).
Maybe this has allowed Rob a clear 12 months, to focus on his new digital product designs.


----------



## Mikey99

EndGameSearch said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> Have you recently changed any of the components within the Daves you are currently shipping?  Perhaps Chord changed to a different type of BNC input connectors?
> 
> ...


I had a similar issue, frequent drop outs and very sensitive to cable movement (but not pops and clicks as you describe). At first I thought it was the cables. After much detective work it was clearly a DAVE issue.  I had my Dave replaced under warranty. Apparently some Daves are sensitive to timing between the two BNC connections in dual BNC mode. This can also be fixed via software, but in the factory.

In my case the issue was only there if I used USB on the HMS. No issue at all if I used optical. I did not have pops and clicks as you describe, just frequent drop-outs.

If you search my posts in the m-scaler thread you will find more details. There is a reply from Rob Watts on the issue as well confirming the above.


----------



## Sonic77

What a set up, needed to be matching colors though.


----------



## Triode User

Sonic77 said:


> What a set up, needed to be matching colors though.



There is a video here of the show system sounding pretty fine . . . .


----------



## Sonic77

Triode User said:


> There is a video here of the show system sounding pretty fine . . . .



Thanks, love Kef speakers too! The speaker cables are way too short.


----------



## Triode User

Sonic77 said:


> Thanks, love Kef speakers too! The speaker cables are way too short.



Yeah, they were not taking chances that the cables might not reach the speakers were they!!

These on the other hand are my own properly short speaker cables . . . . .


----------



## Natronious

I have been instructed (based on listening tests) speaker wire should be 8' minimum for sound (timing?) reasons, and always the same length for both channels.

Though admittedly the listening tests were not my own...


----------



## AndrewOld

nbarnard36 said:


> I have been instructed (based on listening tests) speaker wire should be 8' minimum for sound (timing?) reasons, and always the same length for both channels.
> 
> Though admittedly the listening tests were not my own...



If someone told me that I wouldn’t believe them. Some naim amplifiers need at least 8’ of naim speaker cable to avoid instability, but that’s their problem.


----------



## Triode User (Nov 3, 2019)

nbarnard36 said:


> I have been instructed (based on listening tests) speaker wire should be 8' minimum for sound (timing?) reasons, and always the same length for both channels.
> 
> Though admittedly the listening tests were not my own...



I once spent a whole day at a cable manufacturer listening to all their speaker cables. The 1m ones were by far the best. My own experiments at home backed that up when I tried 2m, 1m and 70cm versions of the same cable.  I trust my own ears, not what someone else says I’m afraid. 

Ps, if longer speaker cables were better or if there was a minimum recommended length, how would that work with active speakers such as my ATC actives which have the amplifiers in the speaker cabinets and therefore ultra short cables? The answer is of course that there is no minimum recommended length.


----------



## Amberlamps

Sonic77 said:


> What a set up, needed to be matching colors though.



What a waste of money.

It's times like this that I pat myself on the back and congratulate myself for not becoming an audiophile. Phew, I dodged that bullet.

And if I'm honest, that setup is a complete mess.


----------



## Sonic77

Amberlamps said:


> What a waste of money.
> 
> It's times like this that I pat myself on the back and congratulate myself for not becoming an audiophile. Phew, I dodged that bullet.
> 
> And if I'm honest, that setup is a complete mess.


LOL!


----------



## STR-1

On cable length, I wonder whether the 1m Chord Company umbilicals between the two Statement boxes bring any benefit compared to the also available 0.5m Chord cables, which are said to be better than the standard short cables supplied with that server.


----------



## Deftone

Amberlamps said:


> What a waste of money.
> 
> It's times like this that I pat myself on the back and congratulate myself for not becoming an audiophile. Phew, I dodged that bullet.
> 
> And if I'm honest, that setup is a complete mess.



Didnt you get the Dave in the end then?


----------



## EndGameSearch

Mikey99 said:


> I had a similar issue, frequent drop outs and very sensitive to cable movement (but not pops and clicks as you describe). At first I thought it was the cables. After much detective work it was clearly a DAVE issue.  I had my Dave replaced under warranty. Apparently some Daves are sensitive to timing between the two BNC connections in dual BNC mode. This can also be fixed via software, but in the factory.
> 
> In my case the issue was only there if I used USB on the HMS. No issue at all if I used optical. I did not have pops and clicks as you describe, just frequent drop-outs.
> 
> If you search my posts in the m-scaler thread you will find more details. There is a reply from Rob Watts on the issue as well confirming the above.


Mike99 - Thanks for the post.  I had tested everything related to Dave's bnc inputs, but I had not thought to try a different input connection type with my hugo m scaler.  With the m-scaler fed by USB, Dave's bnc connections 1 and 2 are complete garbage.  The music constantly drops in and out and there is a static / clicking / crackling noise, primarily in the right channel.  With bnc connections 1 and 2 it's the issue is much less dramatic, but it's still there with a clicking / popping noise any where from every few seconds to every minute or two at best.  With the m-scaler fed via BNC, Dave no longer has any issues with bnc 1, 2, 3 or 4.  I don't understand why it would make a difference, but it clearly does.  I'll be sending my new dave in for repair or replacement.  

@Rob Watts I'd appreciate your input on this post as well as the post Mikey99 first responded to.  Thank you....


----------



## Amberlamps

Deftone said:


> Didnt you get the Dave in the end then?



Nope.

After a lot of pissing about, I decided I didn't need another lump of metal costing thousands sitting on my desk. 

I'm just not that anal / into music to worry about if I can hear some dudes fingerprints on guitar strings in 3d etc etc.

I just don't get it and I doubt I ever will, as when I listen to music, usually I sit back and enjoy it instead of trying to pick it apart.

In other words, I couldn't give a schiit.


----------



## ZappaMan

Amberlamps said:


> Nope.
> 
> After a lot of pissing about, I decided I didn't need another lump of metal costing thousands sitting on my desk.
> 
> ...


but maybe "transparency" means more enjoyable.  on one side of the spectrum is playing music out of the speaker on your phone.... then theres Dave ! and a £2000 set of headphones.... all in at 10g.  i always enjoyed music out of a sound card before all of this...


----------



## Amberlamps

ZappaMan said:


> but maybe "transparency" means more enjoyable.  on one side of the spectrum is playing music out of the speaker on your phone.... then theres Dave ! and a £2000 set of headphones.... all in at 10g.  i always enjoyed music out of a sound card before all of this...



Me too, my headphones plugged straight into either my sound card, or in to my old xfi platinum breakout box was very good in my opinion. I never thought my music sounded schiit, then or now.

Next year I will set my sights on something else, maybe take flying lessons, whats the worst that can happen ?


----------



## Deftone

Amberlamps said:


> Me too, my headphones plugged straight into either my sound card, or in to my old xfi platinum breakout box was very good in my opinion. I never thought my music sounded schiit, then or now.
> 
> Next year I will set my sights on something else, maybe take flying lessons, whats the worst that can happen ?



It did me good being away from ad-fi for a few months, being on the forums everyday kept making me find faults with my headphones or equipment, always looking what could be improved next.

Spending money but not spending time enjoying music (truly enjoying music) and also noticed being away from it all I didn't listen to music as much, maybe I was just doing it for the sake of it? I'm happier these days as long as I can hear music out of something I couldn't care less how many taps there are or how low the noise floor is. Im rarely on the forums these days and I think at one point when the habit has faded I won't be back much if at all.

I  told myself it's time to stop worrying about every little detail there's more to life than audio.


----------



## azabu

Amberlamps said:


> Nope.
> 
> After a lot of pissing about, I decided I didn't need another lump of metal costing thousands sitting on my desk.
> 
> ...



Audiophiles don't listen to music, they only listen to their equipment


----------



## ZappaMan

Deftone said:


> It did me good being away from ad-fi for a few months, being on the forums everyday kept making me find faults with my headphones or equipment, always looking what could be improved next.
> 
> Spending money but not spending time enjoying music (truly enjoying music) and also noticed being away from it all I didn't listen to music as much, maybe I was just doing it for the sake of it? I'm happier these days as long as I can hear music out of something I couldn't care less how many taps there are or how low the noise floor is. Im rarely on the forums these days and I think at one point when the habit has faded I won't be back much if at all.
> 
> I  told myself it's time to stop worrying about every little detail there's more to life than audio.


I agree, it’s like a social media type addiction.  I’ve deleted Facebook and would like to further distance  myself from other platforms/forums.
Though, it has had its good points too, but I think you’re right, the more time you spend here, the more money you spend.


----------



## Rob Watts

EndGameSearch said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> Have you recently changed any of the components within the Daves you are currently shipping?  Perhaps Chord changed to a different type of BNC input connectors?
> 
> ...



No there has been no design changes to Dave over the past few years, so it's not a design issue. Chord do test Daves in dual BNC mode using stock cables for drop-outs. I am seeing Matt (Chord's production director) next week, so I will discuss it with him. It's also very strange it's a right channel issue - I have never seen that before. If you need further help or advice, send me a PM.


----------



## gnomen

Triode User said:


> Ps, if longer speaker cables were better or if there was a minimum recommended length, how would that work with active speakers such as my ATC actives which have the amplifiers in the speaker cabinets and therefore ultra short cables? The answer is of course that there is no minimum recommended length.


Between the amps and the drivers inside the ATC speaker cabinets that is true.  But what about the signal path to the speakers?  I need 2.5m per side to reach my ATC 50As and that's XLR cable carrying a much smaller pre-amp signal to the built in power amps.  I have always thought those cables would benefit most from higher quality and been curious whether anyone has tried a really expensive analog XLR interconnect in a similar set up.  In my own set up a relatively modest cable seems to do the job quite well but I've never tested a truly top end XLR cable.


----------



## ekfc63 (Dec 2, 2019)

ZappaMan said:


> I agree, it’s like a social media type addiction.  I’ve deleted Facebook and would like to further distance  myself from other platforms/forums.
> Though, it has had its good points too, but I think you’re right, the more time you spend here, the more money you spend.




Ditto.  I'm trying to wean myself off the forums.


----------



## ekfc63

azabu said:


> Audiophiles don't listen to music, they only listen to their equipment


----------



## musickid (Nov 7, 2019)

If a piece of electronically engineered hifi can provide so much musical enjoyment and further on top of that a real emotional attachment to the music then you have the key to many years of pure bliss right in your home. If going up the chain (to dave) that musical enjoyment is further enhanced by expanding on the whole range of musical qualities, i.e. timbre, tonality, separation and timing to name but a few then that in turn can only bring you closer to the music emotionally as well. I've really enjoyed the dac journey of the last 2 and a half years and would like to add a dave to my mscaler if i can for the reasons just noted. 

It's better than throwing my money at commercial type schitt or in pubs. Great hobby. I find myself via roon/tidal listening to music i never normally would have. My musical library has become so diverse. Chord dacs for me mean an emotional bond to the music which is priceless. If others want to put a negative outlook on things then it's a free world too.


----------



## mrgray

musickid - nice one!


----------



## strolee

Rob Watts said:


> No there has been no design changes to Dave over the past few years, so it's not a design issue. Chord do test Daves in dual BNC mode using stock cables for drop-outs. I am seeing Matt (Chord's production director) next week, so I will discuss it with him. It's also very strange it's a right channel issue - I have never seen that before. If you need further help or advice, send me a PM.





Rob Watts said:


> No there has been no design changes to Dave over the past few years, so it's not a design issue. Chord do test Daves in dual BNC mode using stock cables for drop-outs. I am seeing Matt (Chord's production director) next week, so I will discuss it with him. It's also very strange it's a right channel issue - I have never seen that before. If you need further help or advice, send me a PM.



@Rob Watts 

I am experiencing the exact same issues with my Dave as EndGameSearch has outlined in his post. After experiencing these issues with the first new Dave that I received about 2 weeks ago, my dealer exchanged it for another new one and to my dismay I am having the same exact problems with this second new Dave. Like EndGameSearch, I also have a TT2 that I use with my MScaler and in that setup, both the TT2 and MScaler work flawlessly together and the results are fantastic. The Dave on its own works fine, but when I try to use the Dave with the MScaler in dual BNC mode, I get constant drop outs and some excessive noise. I have done all of the same type of troubleshooting that EndGameSearch has outlined, including trying both the stock cables, as well as Wave BNC cables, but I get the same terrible result. Very frustrating for such a high end piece of equipment. I doubt that this is just a coincidence and it clearly looks like there is a quality control issue going on here that needs to be addressed by Chord.

Rob - please let me know next steps and how you can help me get a new Dave that works as it should. Thanks!!


----------



## JM1979

musickid said:


> If a piece of electronically engineered hifi can provide so much musical enjoyment and further on top of that a real emotional attachment to the music then you have the key to many years of pure bliss right in your home. If going up the chain (to dave) that musical enjoyment is further enhanced by expanding on the whole range of musical qualities, i.e. timbre, tonality, separation and timing to name but a few then that in turn can only bring you closer to the music emotionally as well. I've really enjoyed the dac journey of the last 2 and a half years and would like to add a dave to my mscaler if i can for the reasons just noted.
> 
> It's better than throwing my money at commercial type schitt or in pubs. Great hobby. I find myself via roon/tidal listening to music i never normally would have. My musical library has become so diverse. Chord dacs for me mean an emotional bond to the music which is priceless. If others want to put a negative outlook on things then it's a free world too.



true but don’t down play the advantages of blowing money at pubs.


----------



## ajaipuriyar

Rob had posted this almost a year back wrt the dropouts. Hope this helps.




 




EndGameSearch said:


> Mike99 - Thanks for the post.  I had tested everything related to Dave's bnc inputs, but I had not thought to try a different input connection type with my hugo m scaler.  With the m-scaler fed by USB, Dave's bnc connections 1 and 2 are complete garbage.  The music constantly drops in and out and there is a static / clicking / crackling noise, primarily in the right channel.  With bnc connections 1 and 2 it's the issue is much less dramatic, but it's still there with a clicking / popping noise any where from every few seconds to every minute or two at best.  With the m-scaler fed via BNC, Dave no longer has any issues with bnc 1, 2, 3 or 4.  I don't understand why it would make a difference, but it clearly does.  I'll be sending my new dave in for repair or replacement.
> 
> @Rob Watts I'd appreciate your input on this post as well as the post Mikey99 first responded to.  Thank you....


----------



## Triode User

Has anyone changed the power supply in Dave? 

I know it has been done by quite a few people. I am considering this and would be interested in people's experiences . . who did it, what if anything was the benefit, how much did it cost. If you would prefer to reply by PM rather than set hares running in the thread that is fine.


----------



## Foxman50

If you do get an answer to your question please kindly share as i would be most interested.


----------



## Triode User

Foxman50 said:


> If you do get an answer to your question please kindly share as i would be most interested.



I'll PM.


----------



## hieukm

I think many user would like to know possible modification done to Dave PSU. Please kindly share publicly even it affiliated to some shop.


----------



## iDesign

Triode User said:


> Has anyone changed the power supply in Dave?
> 
> I know it has been done by quite a few people. I am considering this and would be interested in people's experiences . . who did it, what if anything was the benefit, how much did it cost. If you would prefer to reply by PM rather than set hares running in the thread that is fine.


The uncertainty in how Chord would or would not handle an out of warranty repair on a modified DAVE would give me pause. I have yet to see anyone who photographed the process or posted measurements that substantiate the benefits-- its easier to screw up a perfectly good DAC than to improve it.


----------



## Triode User

@hieukm  PM sent.

@iDesign  Sure, one has to be under no illusion here. If you take the top off then you are on your own. For that reason I do not expect public sharing of what people have done and is why I am conducting discussion by PM.


----------



## thomaskong78 (Nov 11, 2019)

bigfatpaulie said:


> Hmmm.  I want to say that I don't think the 800's are better than the Abyss - they are both clearly top shelf.
> 
> The Abyss is a dark sounding headphone.  Everything has this certain weight to it (I'm not talking about impact).  They are fast sounding and very detailed and accurate.  The HD800's are the ying to that yang - they have a bit more air, in that things sound a bit more relaxed.  They sound lighter.  I think in this side by side the 800's are a bit wider with their staging, or perhaps just separation is better?  The 800's are known for being brittle or harsh and with the DAVE none of that present - they sound smooth and effortless.
> 
> More time is needed with both with the DAVE to make an accurate comparison.  I've heard a lot of SS amps with the HD800's and the DAVE is easily the best.


I agree with this opinion.

HD800s driven by Dave and Mscaler does not give any harsh edge.

Its spatial que is so excellent that I enjoy listening to opera or musical through this comination.

Abyss phi CC driven by Dave direct give very transparent sound but not with enough impact.

It seems that Abyss phi CC need more power.


----------



## holeout

Triode User said:


> Has anyone changed the power supply in Dave?
> 
> I know it has been done by quite a few people. I am considering this and would be interested in people's experiences . . who did it, what if anything was the benefit, how much did it cost. If you would prefer to reply by PM rather than set hares running in the thread that is fine.



I'm definitely interested in your findings on the Dave PSU, please share your findings. Much appreciated!


----------



## Jawed

Rob Watts said:


> No there has been no design changes to Dave over the past few years, so it's not a design issue. Chord do test Daves in dual BNC mode using stock cables for drop-outs. I am seeing Matt (Chord's production director) next week, so I will discuss it with him. It's also very strange it's a right channel issue - I have never seen that before. If you need further help or advice, send me a PM.


I was at Nintronics all day yesterday listening to speakers, fed from Aurender -> USB -> M Scaler -> dual-BNC (stock? looked like stock) -> DAVE.

We had exactly the same problem. Occasional clicks in just the right channel (usually gaps of 20 or 30 seconds between clicks).

This was the final "best" setup, using the pair of BNC inputs on the rear of DAVE closest to the DX outputs, which I believe are inputs 3 and 4. In the other BNC sockets (1/2 it seems) the problem was worse.

When I was last at Nintronics, back in April, their DAVE and M Scaler had none of these problems. Simon at Nintronics thinks that their M Scaler is new and it seems probable their DAVE is not the one I listened to earlier in the year as they tend to sell their dem Chord gear frequently as far as I can tell.

So Rob, it might be an idea if Matt contacts Nintronics to debug their M Scaler + DAVE combination since it has the same problem, and it will be easier to access!

Feel free to mention me by name in relation to this problem.


----------



## Drewligarchy

Quick question. Using Dave's preamp, what decibel level is associated with 1 volt? My amp has an input sensitivity of 1 volt, so want to set this appropriately for obvious reasons.

Edit: With M Scaler


----------



## rkt31

Drewligarchy said:


> Quick question. Using Dave's preamp, what decibel level is associated with 1 volt? My amp has an input sensitivity of 1 volt, so want to set this appropriately for obvious reasons.
> 
> Edit: With M Scaler


Change your amp to benchmark ahb2, it allows much higher input sensitivity.


----------



## Drewligarchy

rkt31 said:


> Change your amp to benchmark ahb2, it allows much higher input sensitivity.



Ok - if I had an audio store that might be easy.

with M scaler and an amp with 1 volt input sensitivity, where should I set Dave to optimally drive it?


----------



## rkt31

Drewligarchy said:


> Ok - if I had an audio store that might be easy.
> 
> with M scaler and an amp with 1 volt input sensitivity, where should I set Dave to optimally drive it?


1v should be light blue. If you have an integrated amp, 1v or 2v won't matter much as the input to integrated amp first goes through volume pot.  But if you plan to feed to a power amp directly then more than 1v would give you clipping and in any case you wouldn't be able to reach 1v in Dave as 1v in that power amp would give full rated output.


----------



## Drewligarchy

rkt31 said:


> 1v should be light blue. If you have an integrated amp, 1v or 2v won't matter much as the input to integrated amp first goes through volume pot.  But if you plan to feed to a power amp directly then more than 1v would give you clipping and in any case you wouldn't be able to reach 1v in Dave as 1v in that power amp would give full rated output.



It's a headphone amp via single ended. If I am using Dave as a preamp, I am trying to figure out what is the decibel level I shouldn't exceed - in terms of gain staging appropriately as sometimes I use the preamp and sometimes I use the volume pot.


----------



## llamaluv

Drewligarchy said:


> Quick question. Using Dave's preamp, what decibel level is associated with 1 volt? My amp has an input sensitivity of 1 volt, so want to set this appropriately for obvious reasons.
> 
> Edit: With M Scaler





Drewligarchy said:


> It's a headphone amp via single ended. If I am using Dave as a preamp, I am trying to figure out what is the decibel level I shouldn't exceed - in terms of gain staging appropriately as sometimes I use the preamp and sometimes I use the volume pot.



The DAVE outputs 3V single-ended when the volume is set to -3dB. You're trying to decrease the output by a factor of 3 because the amp's input sensitivity is 1V. This means decreasing the digital volume control by -10dB. But the M-Scaler decreases the input signal by -3dB, so add 3dB back on, which gives a final answer of *-10dB*. Pretty sure that's right...


----------



## JaZZ

Drewligarchy said:


> My amp has an input sensitivity of 1 volt, so want to set this appropriately for obvious reasons.


«Definition. *Input sensitivity* is the signal level at the input that is needed to drive an *amplifier* up to its full capability, to just before clip, into a stated, nominal impedance, often 8 ohms.»

So it makes no sense to limit the DAVE's output to 1 volt, unless you're super cautious.


----------



## Drewligarchy

JaZZ said:


> «Definition. *Input sensitivity* is the signal level at the input that is needed to drive an *amplifier* up to its full capability, to just before clip, into a stated, nominal impedance, often 8 ohms.»
> 
> So it makes no sense to limit the DAVE's output to 1 volt, unless you're super cautious.



That's a correct definition - but isn't it incomplete? For instance, if I overdrive the input will it not cause distortion, even if it's not completely audible?

From this MSB page on Preamps. I don't know why a headphone amp would be any different:

_Active preamps add gain. Signal levels can exceed the preamps capability in two ways. If the output clips, sound is distorted at high volumes. If the input clips, sound is distorted at all listening levels. _
_
http://www.msbtechnology.com/faq/how-can-you-avoid-preamp-clipping/_

Am I misunderstanding something?


----------



## JaZZ

Of course the input can be overdriven, but that has nothing to do with the figure for input sensitivity.

With the max. output set to 2 volts on DAVE you should be safe.


----------



## Drewligarchy

JaZZ said:


> Of course the input can be overdriven, but that has nothing to do with the figure for input sensitivity.
> 
> With the max. output set to 2 volts on DAVE you should be safe.



Thanks. I've been having fatigue, so I thought I was creating subtle distortions. I thought that overdriving the input would result in distortion. Truthfully, I am trying to understand the concept as well as possible.


----------



## ecwl

Drewligarchy said:


> Thanks. I've been having fatigue, so I thought I was creating subtle distortions. I thought that overdriving the input would result in distortion. Truthfully, I am trying to understand the concept as well as possible.


My take on this is that the first thing is to not think about clipping first. Sure, DAVE can clip your headphone amp and cause distortion. But your headphone amp's analog volume control will probably cause quite a bit of distortion compared to the digital volume control. Usually, the analog volume control distortions are directly related to low-level distortions or subtle channel imbalance. For most analog volume control, the volume with the least distortion and most equal left-right channel balance is around the 12 o'clock mark. Unfortunately, for most people, there is no easy way to measure where for each amp the distortion is the lowest on the analog volume control. 
So if I were to play around with things, I would leave the headphone amp volume control set at the 12 o'clock position and then just adjust DAVE volume. Hopefully, you won't need to crank DAVE into a volume setting where it'll digitally clip or it'll clip the headphone amp and it is still loud enough for you to enjoy the music.


----------



## Drewligarchy

ecwl said:


> My take on this is that the first thing is to not think about clipping first. Sure, DAVE can clip your headphone amp and cause distortion. But your headphone amp's analog volume control will probably cause quite a bit of distortion compared to the digital volume control. Usually, the analog volume control distortions are directly related to low-level distortions or subtle channel imbalance. For most analog volume control, the volume with the least distortion and most equal left-right channel balance is around the 12 o'clock mark. Unfortunately, for most people, there is no easy way to measure where for each amp the distortion is the lowest on the analog volume control.
> So if I were to play around with things, I would leave the headphone amp volume control set at the 12 o'clock position and then just adjust DAVE volume. Hopefully, you won't need to crank DAVE into a volume setting where it'll digitally clip or it'll clip the headphone amp and it is still loud enough for you to enjoy the music.



I am specifically concerned about overloading the input @JaZZ  - said that wouldn't do any damage. I'm reading the MSB (as well as other sources around the web) that says you can clip the input, in the analog domain, by applying to many volts.

So if my input sensitivity is 1 volt, and dave is in dac mode at 3 volts - and I play something with 0dbfs peaks - would I not be getting square waves and distortion? I am trying to determine causes for the fatigue - and when things sound right, but I get pain, it's usually subtle clipping.

I'm just confused on this issue exactly.


----------



## JaZZ

Drewligarchy said:


> I am specifically concerned about overloading the input @JaZZ  - said that wouldn't do any damage. I'm reading the MSB (as well as other sources around the web) that says you can clip the input, in the analog domain, by applying to many volts.
> 
> So if my input sensitivity is 1 volt, and dave is in dac mode at 3 volts - and I play something with 0dbfs peaks - would I not be getting square waves and distortion? I am trying to determine causes for the fatigue - and when things sound right, but I get pain, it's usually subtle clipping.
> 
> I'm just confused on this issue exactly.


A 1 volt signal from the DAVE suffices to enable maximum undistorted volume from your amp. The 1 volt figure has nothing to do with an input voltage limitation for your amp. It may absolutely tolerate 5 volts or the like without clipping.

I agree with _ecwl_ that theoretically your best strategy would be using the DAVE as preamp – i.e. the DAVE's digital volume control – and setting your amp to maximum volume. It would automatically prevent input overload, too.


----------



## Triode User

JaZZ said:


> A 1 volt signal from the DAVE suffices to enable maximum undistorted volume from your amp. The 1 volt figure has nothing to do with an input voltage limitation for your amp. It may absolutely tolerate 5 volts or the like without clipping.
> 
> I agree with _ecwl_ that theoretically your best strategy would be using the DAVE as preamp – i.e. the DAVE's digital volume control – and setting your amp to maximum volume. It would automatically prevent input overload, too.



I also think it might be a good suggestion of setting the amp volume to max and then just using Dave to control the volume. If setting the amp volume to max causes background hiss then just back it off (turn down the amp volume) until the amp background hiss (if any) becomes inaudible.


----------



## Drewligarchy (Nov 19, 2019)

Triode User said:


> I also think it might be a good suggestion of setting the amp volume to max and then just using Dave to control the volume. If setting the amp volume to max causes background hiss then just back it off (turn down the amp volume) until the amp background hiss (if any) becomes inaudible.



No hiss - good suggestion Nick. I was just trying to maximize SNR at the same time.

You know my fatigue issues all too well. I noticed the 1 volt input sensitivity so I thought that could be the cause. After initially lowering the input on the Dave - I think things improved. But could be placebo. I need a few more days to determine if that's the issue.

I actually ran it this way before I got the m scaler. Than at some point I stopped because I could more easily access the volume control.

I see mixed things on the internet. At least based on most of what I've read, if you exceed input sensitivity you will clip. This is soft clippling and mostly unnoticeable. Others have said the amp could handle more. I need to experiment more.

I used to have an LDR passive preamp that gave out a lot of distortion. It was audible, but didn't sound like clipping. I used that between amp and dac to have remote control volume. It actually sounded good. Noise floor modulation-esque. It was killing my ears. I took it out of the chain, after like a year, and all was well again.

These things can drive you crazy, but when things don't sound harsh, and I experience fatigue - something is distorting. It's a bit maddening.


----------



## JaZZ (Nov 19, 2019)

Drewligarchy said:


> ...if you exceed input sensitivity you will clip...


I admire your patience sticking to your misconception.

Input sensitivity is *not* input voltage limitation – as explained multiple times, it's the (minimum) voltage required for full undistorted power at the output. So if you exceed *1 volt* from the DAVE with the amp's volume turned to *max.*, the amp will begin to distort – note: the *output stage*, not the input!


----------



## Drewligarchy (Nov 19, 2019)

JaZZ said:


> I admire your patience sticking to your misconception.
> 
> Input sensitivity is *not* input voltage limitation – as explained multiple times, it's the (minimum) voltage required for full undistorted power at the output. So if you exceed *1 volt* from the DAVE with the amp's volume turned to *max.*, the amp will begin to distort – note: the *output stage*, not the input!



I misread your last comment when you said “you can overdrive the input” as it was ok. I realize now you meant it’s possible. Not that it’s ideal or ok.

Anyhow, if input sensitivity speaks to max output and distortion on output, how do I know how much input voltage is ok before overdriving the input. That MSB link has me confused.

This isn’t an audio nervous a question. Rather I am trying to determine the source of fatigue that I’ve experienced with distortion before. It may not be that at all. Just trying to go through the steps.

I don’t want to monopolize the thread as it’s becoming not “Chord” related, however, if anyone has suggestions please PM.

Incidentally I always appreciate your help Jazz. You help d me identify the isssue with the LDR but you probably don’t remember.


----------



## rkt31

Even if the input sensitivity is 1v, it is difficult to drive the amp to distortion with higher than 1v because this 1v input is after the volume control. So if you feed say 2v from Dave , it will first attenuated by pot to some voltage well below 1v depending upon volume position in amp. Imho better to use analog volume control at highest possible position ( which gives least noise when no signal fed to amp ) and then adjust Dave's volume. This way you would avoid analog attenuation but there will be highest digital attenuation in Dave. So you can also experiment a bit between analog band digital attenuation.


----------



## JaZZ

Drewligarchy said:


> I misread your last comment when you said “you can overdrive the input” as it was ok. I realize now you meant it’s possible. Not that it’s ideal or ok.
> 
> Anyhow, if input sensitivity speaks to max output and distortion on output, *how do I know how much input voltage is ok before overdriving the input*. That MSB link has me confused.
> 
> ...


Sorry if I sounded rude! All is good. 

It's impossible to know the maximum voltage for the amp's input without measuring or having manufacturer specs at hand. 2 volts are a common value, so it will be hard to find a component that doesn't accept it. However, if you set the amp's volume to max and have the DAVE control the volume level, you'll never have to worry about it. That's what I would do in your case. 

It's highly unlikely that your fatigue syndrome has its origin in said issue, though. Maybe just too much occupation with listening to music?


----------



## rrolls (Nov 20, 2019)

Drewligarchy said:


> I used to have an LDR passive preamp that gave out a lot of distortion. It was audible, but didn't sound like clipping. I used that between amp and dac to have remote control volume. It actually sounded good. Noise floor modulation-esque. It was killing my ears. I took it out of the chain, after like a year, and all was well again.



This is quite interesting for me. I have been a follower of LDR volume control, but I have just used a cheap one for a short time. Now I would like to buy a Tortuga to complete my analog path. I have recommended one for a friend a year ago, heard his setup for an hour, and since then he has not complained. So I would like to see the evidence of these distortions. Obviously you have records of these and could show them here, so I can think about again. I have not found any charts about distortion or frequency response of Tortuga volume control, and if necessary I will not hesitate to ask them. Thank you for your note.


----------



## rkt31

Why at all use a pre in between amp and Dave ? Dave direct to a high input sensitivity amp like benchmark ahb2 is a lot better option than having any kind of pre in between.


----------



## musickid

can anyone give me a proper explanation about the reported bnc dropouts when connecting the mscaler? 1 and 2 then 3 and 4 inputs and so on. i'm considering a dave upgrade next year but worried about this.


----------



## llamaluv

The DAVE requires tighter tolerances to reliably sync the dual BNC signals compared to the later Chord DACs. Improvements were made to the data transmission format post-DAVE that make this less of a concern. Or so I'd read.

Users here have reported having more luck when needed on inputs 3/4, which was my experience as well.


----------



## musickid

does this happen with every new dave and mscaler i.e. switching to inputs 3 and 4?


----------



## Foxman50

Nope


----------



## Drewligarchy

rrolls said:


> This is quite interesting for me. I have been a follower of LDR volume control, but I have just used a cheap one for a short time. Now I would like to buy a Tortuga to complete my analog path. I have recommended one for a friend a year ago, heard his setup for an hour, and since then he has not complained. So I would like to see the evidence of these distortions. Obviously you have records of these and could show them here, so I can think about again. I have not found any charts about distortion or frequency response of Tortuga volume control, and if necessary I will not hesitate to ask them. Thank you for your note.



I will send PM


----------



## Triode User

musickid said:


> can anyone give me a proper explanation about the reported bnc dropouts when connecting the mscaler? 1 and 2 then 3 and 4 inputs and so on. i'm considering a dave upgrade next year but worried about this.




This is not a thing to be worried about.

The usual situation is that the dual BNC connection to the Dave is rock solid no matter whether you use 1+2 or 3+4. In the rare case where there is an issue then mostly switching the pair of input sockets used on the Dave solves it or sometimes using different cables. In the even rarer cases where neither of these solve it then from what I have read of Rob Watts posts a factory adjustment is required.

As to an explanation of what causes it then unfortunately I cannot help (perhaps ask RW?). I can say though is that having owned two different Daves from when they first came and swopping cables in and out of them several times every day to test cables all I can say is that I have never ever had any drop out issues when connected to either Blu2 or Mscaler.


----------



## musickid (Nov 20, 2019)

good news many thanks

on an unrelated note if a streamer is wired in ethernet but also has optical out to the dac is the galvanic isolation of the optical connection compromised? my imac is ethernet wired in with optical to mscaler.


----------



## JaZZ

Never had any drop-outs either.


----------



## Mikey99 (Nov 24, 2019)

DAVE drop-outs are luck of the draw. My first Dave had them quite badly and needed to be replaced. The replacement has had no problems. I recently acquired a second DAVE for my main system, and it has not had the problem either.

Just make sure you check your new DAVE right away with dual BNC from the M Scaler, using USB input on the M-Scaler (for some reason the drop-outs only happen with USB). Check both sets of inputs, if either shows drop-outs then get the unit replaced. It should be no problem - in my case my dealer worked with the local distributor to exchange the faulty unit.

If I were Chord I would check each unit for this before leaving the factory - perhaps they do now, and this is no longer a problem.


----------



## sasaki99

I experienced the drop-out problem connecting HMS with Dave to BNC 1&2. That's really annoying!. To solve this problem you have to switch to port 3&4. I too overcome this problem by doing so. It took me several weeks after connecting to 3&4 before the problem is completely gone.

Right now I wouldn't dare to touch the BNC ports and Cable. Quite afraid that the problem may comeback. Some people said the SQ on 1&2 is better than 3&4 but that's fine. As long as I can use the product as the money I spent, I am ok with 3&4.

Note* I did a lot of experiment about the BNC ports and cables. The problem is there for 1&2, it's never gone, especially when you use streaming service, the dropout will frequently occur. My internet is 1GB and connect to my source with AQ diamond ethernet cable. So, I think the problem is the port themselves.

I heard that Chord offers a replacement service for this problem. So if you like the Company sound and signature, just go for it, it's a good DAC.


----------



## iDesign (Nov 26, 2019)

musickid said:


> i'm considering a dave upgrade next year.


You won't regret it. As I type this, I am listening to my DAVE+Blu MK II and I cannot even begin to explain how wonderful it is. I can't thank @Rob Watts and John Franks (@Mojo ideas) and the entire Chord team enough for bringing these products to the market and my home.


----------



## Triode User

iDesign said:


> You won't regret it. As I type this, I am listening to my DAVE+Blu MK II and I cannot even begin to explain how wonderful it is-- I can't thank @Rob Watts and John Franks (@Mojo ideas) and the entire Chord team enough for bringing these products to the market and my home.



Agreed, the Dave towers above all other DACs in the Chord range which is no mean feat because they are all excellent in their own right but the Dave is in a league of its own. The transparency is just to die for and then add it to the Blu MK II to go to another level.


----------



## iDesign (Nov 26, 2019)

Triode User said:


> Agreed, the Dave towers above all other DACs in the Chord range which is no mean feat because they are all excellent in their own right but the Dave is in a league of its own. The transparency is just to die for and then add it to the Blu MK II to go to another level.


I have been a member of this site for 5,583 days as of the time of this post and my audiophile journey is complete and I can focus on the music. The DAVE+Blu Mk II is in a class of its own-- its Gordon Murray and Paul Rosche's McLaren F1; its Rob Watts and John Franks' DAVE. My only regret is that I didn't purchase the DAVE sooner.


----------



## musickid

If one had to pick between a solo dave and TT2/Mscaler with no intent of adding an mscaler to dave later on which way would everyone go?


----------



## Triode User

musickid said:


> If one had to pick between a solo dave and TT2/Mscaler with no intent of adding an mscaler to dave later on which way would everyone go?



You know my answer, solo Dave every time. The subtle detail due to its transparency is irreplaceable in my opinion and having specifically compared it to TT2+Mscaler in my own system.


----------



## odessamarin

musickid said:


> If one had to pick between a solo dave and TT2/Mscaler with no intent of adding an mscaler to dave later on which way would everyone go?



Dave!.. sure.


----------



## STR-1 (Nov 26, 2019)

musickid said:


> If one had to pick between a solo dave and TT2/Mscaler with no intent of adding an mscaler to dave later on which way would everyone go?


Difficult to answer as there are a lot of system variables - e.g. speaker or headphone-based system, cables (interconnects, headphone and power), easy or difficult to drive headphones, dedicated headphone amp, power supplies to mention just a few, and then there is personal preference with different aspects of sound quality (there’s more to that than just transparency).

As a headphone user I have DAVE, M Scaler and TT2, and when trying comparisons earlier this year, while I mostly preferred DAVE/M Scaler over TT2/M Scaler, there were times when I preferred the latter combo for the greater feeling of power and control over my Utopia and HE1000se headphones.  But my system has changed since than and I’m not sure if I would feel the same way today.  I’ve not directly compared TT2/M Scaler with solo DAVE.


----------



## JaZZ

Not sure – exactly undecided (between DAVE and HMS+Hugo₂).


----------



## ray-dude

musickid said:


> If one had to pick between a solo dave and TT2/Mscaler with no intent of adding an mscaler to dave later on which way would everyone go?



Dave, absolutely. There was a time I would said otherwise, but what DAVE brings to the table is magical, and I feel the loss keenly when I’m on H2 or TT2.  MScaling will become cheaper and cheaper and more available to everyone, so you’ll be sure to have that or the equivalent within a couple years, but there is nothing that touches DAVE.


----------



## Triode User

It appears I am not alone in preferring solo Dave to TT2+Mscaler. So I am not as crazy as I thought I was.


----------



## ZappaMan

I was thinking, my mtt2 is sounding amazing, post minor rfi mitigation. I was thinking this new insight it’s giving me into my favourite complex album (kid a), was really exciting, kind of like a Dave in a sense.  There was a whole other dimensions in the production of the album that I’ve never  clocked before.

What I’m saying is, you can get a lot more “performance” out of your mtt2, without the expense of a Dave. But also, this hobby
 is a journey and it’s ok to take your time to get to the next place, no point in rushing on, unless youve only got a limited time left.  And this prob applies no matter what your current setup is.

Then to counter that, I saw another person say, the 20 element pulse array (or whatever it is in Dave), is the best value musical upgrade you can buy.


----------



## Amberlamps

The differences between the two setups is probably minimal at best, and 99% of joe public probably couldn't discern the differences between both setups. 

Some folk here will say different, cool, but it's like every other hobby, take graphic cards for example, the epeen club will buy 2080ti's for £1200, whist those with some savvy will spend £700 and get a 2080 non ti and save £500 in the process and lose 5 frames per second bringing it down to 95fps, compared to the 2080ti's 100fps.

All that money for so little gain.

Conclusion, hms and tt2 gives dave a run for it's money and I wouldn't be surprised if more folk preferred TT2's sound compared to Dave's. Plus I don't like epeen's.


----------



## thomaskong78

musickid said:


> If one had to pick between a solo dave and TT2/Mscaler with no intent of adding an mscaler to dave later on which way would everyone go?


For 2 channel audio, Dave could be better than TT2 and HMS.

But if you use it as headphone amp, then TT2 and HMS give more power to drive some low efficiency headphone.


----------



## musickid

My PM1 is very sensitive as are most headphones i have on my shortlist for possible future purchases. Power is not an issue for me. TT2 is on low gain now.


----------



## MacedonianHero

thomaskong78 said:


> For 2 channel audio, Dave could be better than TT2 and HMS.
> 
> But if you use it as headphone amp, then TT2 and HMS give more power to drive some low efficiency headphone.



Personally, unless we're talking about say the Susvara, LCD-4 or Phi TC, I agree that the DAVE isn't ideal on it's own...BUT, with say the GS-X mini or HPA4, I'd easily take that setup over the TT2. Though one's wallet might not agree.


----------



## musickid

do you mean adding the gsx or hpa to the dave as a third party headphone amp using dave just as a dac?


----------



## thomaskong78 (Nov 26, 2019)

I would not have bought Dave without HMS this May.

I recommend you to go for Dave rather than TT2 and Hms.

My Dac rating that I had auditioned for 2 years.

Point 100
There is nothing to criticize over MSB Select II except its high price around 100K$.
It has magical relaxed texture similar to top grade vinyl.

Dynamics, details, soundstage are all excellent.

Point 95
Kalista Dreamplay transport and Dac
It is excellent matching MSB Select II on almost every aspects.

The only down side is that it does not have relaxed texture similar to top grade vinyl although it still sounds silky.

Point 91.
Trinity Dac
This one is also all round player with hard to criticize.
But it falls slightly short of MSB Select II on details and relaxed texture.

Point 90
Lampiziator Pacific Dac
I had auditioned this Dac with same setup with MSB Select II.

This one is also all round player with hard to criticize.
It falls slightly short of MSB Select II on dynamics and relaxed texture.
But this one has a nice bloom and full bodied sound,
which make some people prefer this one to MSB Select II

Point 85
Chord Dave and Mscaler(or Blue II transport)
This one give transparent and 3D soundstage with excellent details.
But it need good system matching.
It could sound analytical or hot coupled with bright combination of speaker and amplifier.
Without upscaling using Mscaler, its sound is mediocre around 75 points.

Point 84
MSB Premier with one more basic power supply
I had auditioned this one side by side with Lampiziator Pacific Dac.
It matches Pacific Dac with Dynamics, details, soundstage but fall short of Pacific Dac in magical bloom and full body.
With improved power supply or clock, its performance have room to improve further.

Point 80
Formula XHD Dac
I auditioned this one side by side with Trinity Dac
This one is a very musical player with full bloom.
But it falls short of Trinity Dac by one notch in dynamics and bass slam.

Point 79
TotalDac 6 tube version
This one is also a very musical player.
But from the point of audiophile, its dynamics, details, soundstage are all one notch below the standard set by MSB Select II.

Point 78
MSB Discrete Dac with one additional basic power supply.
This one has similar sound signature to MSB Premier
But it is half notch below MSB Premier on dynamics, details, soundstage.

Point 75
EmmLab Dac2
I paid 9K$ for this on 2010.
It matches Chord Dave and Mscaler on dynamics with slightly more bass slam.
But Chord Dave and Mscaler give more transparent and deeper soundstage than EmmLab Dac2 while soundstage width are comparable to each other.
This one has slightly fuller sound than Chord Dave and Mscaler.
It is still working fine after 10 years of use.

Point 73.

Lyngdorf 2170
This one has Dac, pre and power amp, active crossover and room correction functions.
It’s Dac sounds very similar to EmmLab Dac2 but with slightly less details and bass slam.

There are many Dacs to audition but I could not audition all of them.

I had bought Chord Dave and Mscaler late May.

Recently I play musicals and operas very often enjoying excellent 3D soundstage.

But I do not believe that I can live with Chord Dave and Mscaler for my life.

If some innovative Dac better than MSB Select II come out under 50K$ in the future, then I will upgrade to it.

Otherwise, I expect to use Chord Dave and Mscaler for 3 years or longer.


----------



## MacedonianHero

musickid said:


> do you mean adding the gsx or hpa to the dave as a third party headphone amp using dave just as a dac?



Correct...with only the headphones I listed (and maybe the HE-6SE). Otherwise, just use the DAVE.


----------



## iDesign

It would be hard to justify the math-to-performance ratio on your checkbook balance sheet. While I much prefer the DAVE, selling your Hugo TT2 and Hugo M Scaler to upgrade wouldn't make much sense unless you can keep the financial delta to a minimum.


----------



## kelly200269

I'm toying with the idea of going for DAVE in the new year. All of my cans are relatively easy to drive, even the 600ohm Beyer T1.2.
My question is: I just love my HMS/TT2 combo. HOW much better can it be??


----------



## iDesign

kelly200269 said:


> I'm toying with the idea of going for DAVE in the new year. All of my cans are relatively easy to drive, even the 600ohm Beyer T1.2.
> My question is: I just love my HMS/TT2 combo. HOW much better can it be??


You should listen to any equipment you’re considering before purchasing it. No one can possibly predict how you will perceive sound and your individual preferences. This bit of advice will save you thousands. In my experience the difference is in the fluidity and holography of the sound that makes the DAVE so special.


----------



## jarnopp

thomaskong78 said:


> I would not have bought Dave without HMS this May.
> 
> I recommend you to go for Dave rather than TT2 and Hms.
> 
> ...



Thomas,

Thanks for the comprehensive reviews. Is your reference point then vinyl and , if so, what is the ultimate vinyl setup you are comparing these DACs against?  An additional question would be how might they compare to ,aster tapes or even live performances. 

Thanks!


----------



## thomaskong78

jarnopp said:


> Thomas,
> 
> Thanks for the comprehensive reviews. Is your reference point then vinyl and , if so, what is the ultimate vinyl setup you are comparing these DACs against?  An additional question would be how might they compare to ,aster tapes or even live performances.
> 
> Thanks!


*MSB Select Dac vs Vinyl*


http://glv.co.kr/data/editor/201810/15395687063080.png
(This the same room with slightly different setup)


On Dec 6th, 2018 I had attended Launching event of YG Acoustics Hailey 1.2 speakers in Seoul, Korea.

MSB Select II Dac  and Pre was connected to Viola Legacy Mono Amplifier to drive the speakers.

Nordost Valhalla cables were used.

The system gave wide and deep soundstage with tight and tuneful bass.

There is no doubt it was top notch system in every way with the total cost of component over 200K $.


http://glv.co.kr/products/MSB/images/top_image_06.jpg


http://www.kronosaudio.com/images/kronos pro big-crop-u963_2x.jpg?crc=3796245212




At the end of show, we decided to do interesting comparison between MSB Select Dac II (85K$) and vinyl system using Kronus turntable.

Kronus turntable was fed to Octave phono amp and Viola Pre amp,

MSB Select was used as Pre and Dac.


https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51hvAKhEyIL.jpg
We selected above Vinyl and 24/96 network media.


I got surprised to find that MSB and Kronus gave very similar sound.

MSB Select provided slightly more dense sound with little bit more details.

Kronus gave slightly more relaxed sound.


If I had to choose one, I would take Kronus over MSB on this music since I like relaxed sound as I get older.


But it could change with different music.

Unfortunately we could test only one music.

Other people may have different opinion.



Despite this conclusion, MSB Select II gave one of the best sound from any DAC that I had ever heard.


----------



## rkt31

thomaskong78 said:


> *MSB Select Dac vs Vinyl*
> 
> 
> http://glv.co.kr/data/editor/201810/15395687063080.png
> ...


To me tt2 +HMS sounded more relaxed than Kronos tt at Singapore. HMS contributes a lot for making sound stress free.


----------



## kelly200269

iDesign said:


> You should listen to any equipment you’re considering before purchasing it. No one can possibly predict how you will perceive sound and your individual preferences. This bit of advice will save you thousands. In my experience the difference is in the fluidity and holography of the sound that makes the DAVE so special.


Thanks for this. Good advice.
And yes, as with any upgrade/change YMMV.
I’ve just been amazed with the improvements moving ‘up the chain’ of Chord DAC’s has brought. Moving from Hugo => TT1 => TT2 => TT2/HMS have all brought a massive smile to my face.
But you’re correct, I think I would need to audition DAVE in my system to see if the benefits are realised in my relatively modest system.


----------



## FunkyBassMan

kelly200269 said:


> Thanks for this. Good advice.
> And yes, as with any upgrade/change YMMV.
> I’ve just been amazed with the improvements moving ‘up the chain’ of Chord DAC’s has brought. Moving from Hugo => TT1 => TT2 => TT2/HMS have all brought a massive smile to my face.
> But you’re correct, I think I would need to audition DAVE in my system to see if the benefits are realised in my relatively modest system.



I spent the better part of 6 hours listening at a dealer to Hugo2, TT2 and Dave, with and without M-Scaler on every conceivable recording I could think about.  I posted about it a while back, but long story short, the DAVE + MScaler literally made the others unlistenable to me.  It was like there was a "musicality IN/OUT" button. 

TT2+MScaler sounded better technically in terms of purity of tone and timing than Hugo2+MScaler but added nothing musically to my ears.  Since I've lived all my life in recording studios and grew up listening to NS-10s, I respond 90% to musicality and 10% to purity of tone, so between the H2 the TT2, I could take either one over the other.

However the DAVE brought the music.  It was addictive like a delicious meal you can't stop eating. 

If Chord put the DAVE and the HMS in one box, they would rule the world.


----------



## ekfc63 (Nov 28, 2019)

> If Chord put the DAVE and the HMS in one box, they would rule the world.



Along with the TT2's more powerful headphone amplifier


----------



## kelly200269 (Nov 28, 2019)

FunkyBassMan said:


> I spent the better part of 6 hours listening at a dealer to Hugo2, TT2 and Dave, with and without M-Scaler on every conceivable recording I could think about.  I posted about it a while back, but long story short, the DAVE + MScaler literally made the others unlistenable to me.  It was like there was a "musicality IN/OUT" button.
> 
> TT2+MScaler sounded better technically in terms of purity of tone and timing than Hugo2+MScaler but added nothing musically to my ears.  Since I've lived all my life in recording studios and grew up listening to NS-10s, I respond 90% to musicality and 10% to purity of tone, so between the H2 the TT2, I could take either one over the other.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this. This is really helpful.
I think that you’ve ‘hit the nail on the head’ when you talk about ‘musicality’.
I know many non-Chord DAC users might balk at the cost of Chord DAC’s. and argue that they’re no better than off-the-shelf Delta Sigma DAC’s. And technically, that may be true. After all, they probably all display ruler-flat frequency response, distortion etc, and probably ‘measure’ very similarly.
However Rob’s genius bestows Chord DAC’a with the magic ingredient - musicality, something that can’t be ‘measured’.
Consideration of bass, treble, mids ‘quality’ etc is nonsensical when evaluating a Chord DAC against a stock Delta Sigma DAC.
The HMS has been a revelation to me. It makes MUSIC. I’ve said previously on the HMS thread that the TT2 sounds relatively crude and uncouth without HMS.
This makes me think that DAVE will be even more musical, and it’s impact in my relatively modest Linn Aktiv system will be felt in the same way that previous moves ‘up’ the Chord DAC range have been felt in the past.
Something to look forward to in the New Year!


----------



## rkt31

kelly200269 said:


> Thanks for this. This is really helpful.
> I think that you’ve ‘hit the nail on the head’ when you talk about ‘musicality’.
> I know many non-Chord DAC users might balk at the cost of Chord DAC’s. and argue that they’re no better than off-the-shelf Delta Sigma DAC’s. And technically, that may be true. After all, they probably all display ruler-flat frequency response, distortion etc, and probably ‘measure’ very similarly.
> However Rob’s genius bestows Chord DAC’a with the magic ingredient - musicality, something that can’t be ‘measured’.
> ...


I mostly use tt2 fed by HMS but one day i used tt2 alone via phone's Bluetooth. It sounded too good even with Bluetooth input. I don't know how you found tt2 alone crude !


----------



## kelly200269

rkt31 said:


> I mostly use tt2 fed by HMS but one day i used tt2 alone via phone's Bluetooth. It sounded too good even with Bluetooth input. I don't know how you found tt2 alone crude !


I used the word _relatively_!


----------



## musickid (Nov 28, 2019)

So given all of this new information if one has to live with a solo dave or hms/tt2 which way do you go? Assuming here the tt2/hms owner i.e. me cannot afford to add another mscaler to a newly acquired dave anytime in the foreseeable future if ever.


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## Triode User (Nov 29, 2019)

musickid said:


> So given all of this new information if one has to live with a solo dave or hms/tt2 which way do you go? Assuming here the tt2/hms owner i.e. me cannot afford to add another mscaler to a newly acquired dave anytime in the foreseeable future if ever.



I thought you had asked that and I thought that a number of us had said go with solo Dave as being the better option.

but really, shouldn’t you be listening and making that decision yourself? Do you have a good relationship with your chord dealer? Having bought TT2 and MScaler many would loan you a Dave for a home demo if they thought that ultimately there might be a sale in it.


----------



## musickid (Nov 29, 2019)

Yes nintronics have quoted me a good figure but i'm undecided between the musicality of hms and magical transparency of dave. i have heard dave solo twice through my PM1's and it is excellent. I'm waiting for the spark which will divert me one way or the other. Anyhow a second opinion here never hurt anyone.


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## marhol (Nov 29, 2019)

musickid said:


> Yes nintronics have quoted me a good figure but i'm undecided between the musicality of hms and magical transparency of dave. i have heard dave solo twice through my PM1's and it is excellent. I'm waiting for the spark which will divert me one way or the other. Anyhow a second opinion here never hurt anyone.




Oppo Pm1 were one of the most musical headphones I have heard by themselves. I was listening  Pm1 with Oppo Ha-1 (neutral Dac/amp) and it was magical pairing. IMHO transparency, neutrality  and holographic presentation of Dave would bring the best from Pm1 as it is an efficient and warm/musical sounding headphone.


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## musickid (Nov 29, 2019)

have you heard tt2/hms vs dave?

also is anyone out there using chromecast audio connected to dave to stream roon? this has to be one of the most minimalistic rf free setups possible. for headphone use.


----------



## Triode User

musickid said:


> also is anyone out there using chromecast audio connected to dave to stream roon? this has to be one of the most minimalistic rf free setups possible. for headphone use.



I have used CCA as a Roon endpoint with its optical output connected to TT2 & dave and I was never all that impressed with the sound quality. I admit it was using its supplied power supply. It deserves a bit more investigation but I am not entirely sure you can 100% say it is rf free despite the optical connection (there are other transmission routes for potential rf).


----------



## musickid

thanks there it's quite tricky identifying what could be an ideal optical source.


----------



## kelly200269 (Nov 29, 2019)

musickid said:


> thanks there it's quite tricky identifying what could be an ideal optical source.


The CCA makes a great optical source/Roon ‘end point’ for TT2/DAVE.
Just be aware that it won’t pass anything more than 24/48 without dropouts/stuttering.
More info can be found on the Roon community:

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/chromecast-audio-dropouts/47890

ASR also measured it as a Roon end-point, and apparently it measured very well:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ents-of-chromecast-audio-digital-output.4544/


----------



## ZappaMan (Nov 29, 2019)

kelly200269 said:


> The CCA makes a great optical source/Roon ‘end point’ for TT2/DAVE.
> Just be aware that it won’t pass anything more than 24/48 without dropouts/stuttering.
> More info can be found on the Roon community:
> 
> ...


A very interesting article on cca, via Roon or direct cast. TLDR direct cast does not measure well, but as Roon end point it measures perfectly.

(Note devil in the detail, could be the way the tests were conducted if you read through the comments).


----------



## Triode User

kelly200269 said:


> ASR also measured it as a Roon end-point, and apparently it measured very well:
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ents-of-chromecast-audio-digital-output.4544/



Bear in mind though that ASR thinks that all there is to a DAC is that it should measure well with the tests that he does and if you agreed with him then we would all be using Topping DACs and none of us would be bothered with any of the Chord kit. 

Nuff said?


----------



## ZappaMan

Triode User said:


> Bear in mind though that ASR thinks that all there is to a DAC is that it should measure well with the tests that he does and if you agreed with him then we would all be using Topping DACs and none of us would be bothered with any of the Chord kit.
> 
> Nuff said?



I think it’s just an interesting data point as such.  I’d like to believe understanding/measuring transports is easier then dacs analogue ability. 

But I agree the site is misleading. 

Toppings, icing.


----------



## kelly200269

Triode User said:


> Bear in mind though that ASR thinks that all there is to a DAC is that it should measure well with the tests that he does and if you agreed with him then we would all be using Topping DACs and none of us would be bothered with any of the Chord kit.
> 
> Nuff said?


I think the interesting thing with the ASR review, is that the CCA didn't 'measure' very well in isolation, but as a Roon end-point it measured very well, with very low levels of jitter.
I think it makes a very neat, cost-effective Roon end-point, as long as you accept it's limitations on 24/48 max.


----------



## marhol

musickid said:


> have you heard tt2/hms vs dave?



No, I havent heard TT2+Hms yet.  I just wanted to say that Dave+ Pm1 combo should have "musicality" covered for days and years. And in my opinion Dave with its excellent transient speed, neutrality, holographic 3D presentation,  dynamics and practically nonexistent digital or whatever distortion  is pretty musical on its own (already without Hms or Blu2).


----------



## ekfc63

A used DAVE has come up locally and I’m trying to decide whether to make the jump from my MSC/TT2 with 1266 TC.  Concerned that the Dave won’t have enough power to get the best out of the TCs.


----------



## thomaskong78

ekfc63 said:


> A used DAVE has come up locally and I’m trying to decide whether to make the jump from my MSC/TT2 with 1266 TC.  Concerned that the Dave won’t have enough power to get the best out of the TCs.


I had listened to 1266 Phi CC with Dave about 3 weeks ago.

My impression is that Dave does not have enough power to drive it despite transparent headstage with nice details.

If you get the Dave, you had better get some powerful amp like Schiit MJ2 or The Monolith™ Liquid Platinum Headphone Amplifier which is on sale now.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=33305

Both 1266 TC and Raal Sr1a are on Black Friday sale now. I am in a conundrum to choose one between those two excellent headphones.


----------



## simorag

ekfc63 said:


> A used DAVE has come up locally and I’m trying to decide whether to make the jump from my MSC/TT2 with 1266 TC.  Concerned that the Dave won’t have enough power to get the best out of the TCs.



It really depends on what music you listen to the most, your typical listening volumes and preferences, as adding an amp to the DAVE will be a bit of a trade off in terms of transparency (less so if you get the amp right), but yes to get _the best _out of the TC you will need an amp IMO.

After multiple auditions over several months I had the chance of trying some very good amps, and the last "episode" of my quest is reported here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...ressions-thread.666765/page-608#post-15269980
There you will find a summary table with my very subjective and arbitrary ranking of how DAVE solo performs with the TC in comparison to some nice amps.

Based on that scoreboard, a sensible person would be more than happy with the DAVE directly driving the TC, but ultimately, being an audiophile, be prepared to get the itch for an (expensive) amp for the TC after a few weeks / months you get the DAVE .. your wallet is warned


----------



## Triode User

simorag said:


> It really depends on what music you listen to the most, your typical listening volumes and preferences, as adding an amp to the DAVE will be a bit of a trade off in terms of transparency (less so if you get the amp right)



I don’t use headphones and always use speakers but just on this point of the loss of transparency by adding an amp to Dave, I compared TT2 driving speakers direct contrasted with Dave plus an amp (albeit a very good one). The Dave plus amp was still much more transparent than the TT2. (IMO of course).


----------



## ekfc63 (Nov 30, 2019)

simorag said:


> It really depends on what music you listen to the most, your typical listening volumes and preferences, as adding an amp to the DAVE will be a bit of a trade off in terms of transparency (less so if you get the amp right), but yes to get _the best _out of the TC you will need an amp IMO.
> 
> After multiple auditions over several months I had the chance of trying some very good amps, and the last "episode" of my quest is reported here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...ressions-thread.666765/page-608#post-15269980
> There you will find a summary table with my very subjective and arbitrary ranking of how DAVE solo performs with the TC in comparison to some nice amps.
> ...



I have a decent speaker amp rated 60w but allegedly puts out more like 100w from my active two channel system that I can use either in the interim (while I either look for an additional one (since it’s been discontinued)) or maybe long term.  The next thing would be to get a Hifiman HE adapter although I do have some concerns about it negatively affecting the signal path.


----------



## jarnopp

ekfc63 said:


> I have a decent speaker amp rated 60w but allegedly puts out more like 100w from my active two channel system that I can use either in the interim (while I either look for an additional one (since it’s been discontinued)) or maybe long term.  The next thing would be to get a Hifiman HE adapter although I do have some concerns about it negatively affecting the signal path.



if your amp is SS you don’t need the adapter. Just be very careful with the volume.


----------



## thomaskong78

ekfc63 said:


> I have a decent speaker amp rated 60w but allegedly puts out more like 100w from my active two channel system that I can use either in the interim (while I either look for an additional one (since it’s been discontinued)) or maybe long term.  The next thing would be to get a Hifiman HE adapter although I do have some concerns about it negatively affecting the signal path.


https://store.hifiman.com/index.php/he-adapter.html

It is safer to use the adapter for both headphone and amp.


----------



## ekfc63 (Dec 5, 2019)

ekfc63 said:


> A used DAVE has come up locally and I’m trying to decide whether to make the jump from my MSC/TT2 with 1266 TC.  Concerned that the Dave won’t have enough power to get the best out of the TCs.




Well I made the jump.  Dave is on it's way.  Will try it with my speaker amp. Now I need a 1/4" female to 4x bananas for the amp end.  Does anyone know such an adapter?  

Alternatively I'll get a Hifiman HE adapter


----------



## ray-dude

Well done!  Lots of things change in my system (everything?), but DAVE is and has been the bedrock heart and soul of it.

I just ordered a banana to XLR adapter for my TC's from Headphone Lounge (he has other connectors as well).  Gets here Friday, and we plan to go through TC's connected to DAVE direct, TT2 direct, Schitt Aegir, First Watt F2J, and Benchmark AHB2 this weekend


----------



## musickid

Did you sell hms/tt2 to fund dave? i'm thinking to trade in my chord stack for a dave.

How did you rationalise the swap from hms/tt2 to dave?


----------



## ZappaMan

musickid said:


> Did you sell hms/tt2 to fund dave? i'm thinking to trade in my chord stack for a dave.


Don’t do it brother, Dave 2 will be here in 2 years, the used Dave market will be flooded, you can then get a Dave. But by then you’ll want Dave 2 
Get some cheap mechanical isolation and put the idea out of your head (or just turn the volume up, it’s much cheaper)


----------



## musickid

since when was cheap mechanical isolation a stop gap for anything. brother??


----------



## ekfc63

musickid said:


> Did you sell hms/tt2 to fund dave? i'm thinking to trade in my chord stack for a dave.
> 
> How did you rationalise the swap from hms/tt2 to dave?



i still have the TT2 but will put it up for sale soon.  I’ve only had it for a couple of months!


----------



## ray-dude

musickid said:


> since when was cheap mechanical isolation a stop gap for anything. brother??



I have ~30 custom machined hardened Aluminum bowls in various geometries, precision ball bearings of various sizes and materials, and an embarrassing variety of polishing tools in the house that says otherwise (yes, I went a bit overboard trying to figure out what the hell these little guys were doing   I need to get around to writing up that crazy detour into the world of mechanical isolation, but I'm definitely now a believer.  Highly recommended for dabblers out there that are looking for a new winter project.


----------



## ZappaMan

musickid said:


> since when was cheap mechanical isolation a stop gap for anything. brother??


Cruel full stop.


----------



## musickid

cruel full stops and DIY metal ball bearings.


----------



## ray-dude

All about ultra hard precision ball bearings MK (larger is better, but too large gets awkward


----------



## ZappaMan

ray-dude said:


> All about ultra hard precision ball bearings MK (larger is better, but too large gets awkward


I’m sure mk regularly takes hard ones.


----------



## musickid (Dec 7, 2019)

always digging at me for no reason? very odd and strange. unless i misunderstood?


----------



## Natronious

Just to say, I have gone to great lengths in the pursuit of mechanical isolation...


----------



## Natronious

And not to make it appear as if the blu and antipodes are being neglected, I'm 'auditioning' these little ebony discs that work on magic.


----------



## Amberlamps

ZappaMan said:


> Don’t do it brother, Dave 2 will be here in 2 years, the used Dave market will be flooded, you can then get a Dave. But by then you’ll want Dave 2
> Get some cheap mechanical isolation and put the idea out of your head (or just turn the volume up, it’s much cheaper)



For once, you have said something that made sense and which I agree with.


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## Amberlamps (Dec 8, 2019)

ZappaMan said:


> I’m sure mk regularly takes hard ones.



LOL, thats the second thing that you've said which I jokingly agree with.


However, I'm sure MK does not take dix. He is probably a great person in real life.


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## Amberlamps

musickid said:


> always digging at me for no reason? very odd and strange. unless i misunderstood?



I think Zappaman is saying you take dix MK.

I'd sue him, but just make sure you hire elon musks legal team.


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## ray-dude

nbarnard36 said:


> Just to say, I have gone to great lengths in the pursuit of mechanical isolation...




Wow @nbarnard36, I bow in your general direction...well played sir!


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## Thenewguy007

nbarnard36 said:


> Just to say, I have gone to great lengths in the pursuit of mechanical isolation...




I seen worse


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## Amberlamps

Thenewguy007 said:


> I seen worse



W.T.F Please don't tell me thats just metal plates with no electronics inside.

Sometimes I wonder about audiophiles. When I do wonder about them, it's usually me wondering how much claret will be spilt when I stamp on their heads.

Kinda like how cockroaches explode when you stamp on one,


----------



## Triode User

nbarnard36 said:


> Just to say, I have gone to great lengths in the pursuit of mechanical isolation...



That is a seriously funky set up.

Can you help with which are the mechanical isolation items because in the photo is difficult to see clearly? I can see some spiked components but I always thought spikes mechanically coupled rather than isolated.


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## Amberlamps

ray-dude said:


> I have ~30 custom machined hardened Aluminum bowls in various geometries, precision ball bearings of various sizes and materials, and an embarrassing variety of polishing tools in the house that says otherwise (yes, I went a bit overboard trying to figure out what the hell these little guys were doing   I need to get around to writing up that crazy detour into the world of mechanical isolation, but I'm definitely now a believer.  Highly recommended for dabblers out there that are looking for a new winter project.



Lol

OCD much ?


----------



## Triode User (Dec 8, 2019)

ray-dude said:


> I have ~30 custom machined hardened Aluminum bowls in various geometries, precision ball bearings of various sizes and materials, and an embarrassing variety of polishing tools in the house that says otherwise (yes, I went a bit overboard trying to figure out what the hell these little guys were doing   I need to get around to writing up that crazy detour into the world of mechanical isolation, but I'm definitely now a believer.  Highly recommended for dabblers out there that are looking for a new winter project.



I look forward to that write up when you have the time.

Having been an architect for close on 40 years I have had many projects which required mechanical and acoustic isolation such as apartments directly above nightclubs. In all of these the absolute no no was direct metal on metal contact and the best was no physical contact at all or if not that then the use of carefully controlled materials such as silicone, rubber, foams or springs.

If I was to consider isolating my Dave or Blu2 (I’m not considering it by the way) I would possibly start by suspending them from suitable springs rather than using metal bowls or ball bearings and hence why I would be very interested in your experiences.


----------



## Amberlamps

All this talk on isolators, what on earth can isolating a dave for example do that would make it sound better ? It's digital music for godsake, it's not a record player where isolating it from vibrations would help make the stylus less prone to jumping.

No way on earth will using triangles, balls, rectangles or any other shape make the music sound any different to what it was like before using stupid methods to get 0 gains in sound quality. 

Also, alot of you are OAP's, your hearing *will* be worse than mine, even though I have tinnitus, and I find it comical and weird that you can all hear night and day differences when messing about with stupid ideas.

If you all are to be believed, you wouldn't need to buy a dave, you'd only need to buy a mojo and then add all your night and day difference tweaks, like balls, triangles, voodoo magic, string, a couple of magnets and the catalytic converter from a 1997 ford fiesta.

I would put money on the fact that if SQ changes can be measured, there would be 0 difference with and without those funky isolating feet.

If you all weren't in your late 50s, 60s and 70's I would give you the benefit of the doubt, but you are and the changes that one says that they hear, is most likely a placebo.

That is why you don't see the rest of the world copying audiophiles weird idea's, and also why music companies also don't build their devices with all these weird tweaks as standard.

I'm sure Rob will love to hear that his dacs need some balls or triangles to sound good. You all praise rob for his great work and as the worlds best dac designer, yet you spoil his work by thinking it needs some dumb schiit attached to it for it to sound "better".

This post is aimed at no one in particular, it's aimed at stupid money making scheme's from idiot companies thinking that they can make a quick buck off of naive people, who then go on to spread the idiotic idea to others. 

Isolators for digital music and ideas like it are a niche product for a niche market for a reason.


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## ray-dude (Dec 8, 2019)

Triode User said:


> I look forward to that write up when you have the time.
> 
> Having been an architect for close on 40 years I have had many projects which required mechanical and acoustic isolation such as apartments directly above nightclubs. In all of these the absolute no no was direct metal on metal contact and the best was no physical contact at all or if not that then the use of carefully controlled materials such as silicone, rubber, foams or springs.
> 
> If I was to consider isolating my Dave or Blu2 I would possibly start by suspending them from suitable springs rather than using metal bowls or ball bearings and hence why I would be very interested in your experiences.



OK Nick, here it is (time to get this off my to do list).

The finding was an extreme surprise to me.  I was expecting at best a very modest improvement, but it turned out to be one of the biggest positive impacts I had had on my system (esp. when applied to my DAVE).  That's what led to the trip down the rabbit hole to figure out what the heck was going on.

As background, way back in the day I did a lot of laser interferometry and microscopy, ultra small device characterization (pico amps), and a detour into patch clamp work (measuring the electrical signal from ion flow from individual proteins opening and closing).  I have a lot of scar tissue from phase-related phenomena and mechanically induced electrical noise (as in, spend 18 months getting measurements clean enough so you can measure the damn device and finally graduate scar tissue).  Although orders of magnitude less extreme, the timing precision and phase coherence of Rob's DACs tickles a lot of those intuition centers.  The music just feels more real as things get more phase coherent.  Insane that the brain can process differences at this level, and that perception is altered so much as a result of seemingly small changes.

When I first got my DAVE, I followed Roy's well trodden path and got an Acoustic Revive TB-38H and Black Ravioli pads under my DAVE.  The Acoustic Revive has some ground up quartz (it looks like) to dissipate and absorb vibrations, and best as I can tell the Black Ravioli pads are some sort of visco-elastic material.  Definitely had a welcome audible impact, but at the level of "hey, something seems wrong" if you took it away, not at a "what the hell is going on?" level of impact if you took it away.

Both of these components basically absorb vibration (which is good) but it was an open question for me whether they could isolate against vibrations in the audio range of frequencies (20-20kHz).  In doing some research, I found a lot of approaches to mechanical isolation, but I was intrigued by the roller ball technique that Barry Diament championed: http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm  I've heard a lot of Barry's recordings, and I trust his ear.  This is worth looking at.

Basically, the idea is to fabricate a bowl of hardened aluminum, and float whatever you want to isolate on precision ball bearings on these bowls.  The better polished the bowl and more precisely spherical the ball bearing and the harder the materials (to have less deformation), the more easily the object your isolating could float horizontally in the bowls.  It looked interesting to me because of the presumably near ideal horizontal isolation, but at the trade off of strong vertical coupling (metal to metal). I briefly considered suspended springs and a heavy platform, but my living room isn't ready for that kind of experiment yet 

I found a commercial source that took Barry's concepts and sold these bowls with a generous return policy (http://www.ingress-engineering.ca/products-and-services.php).  I'm always appreciative of vendors that allow in home auditions, so I ordered a couple sets of the Level 3 rollers to give a try.  You can also take 3 shallow ceramic bowls and some glass marbles and get a crude sense for what the technique can offer.  If you hear anything, take that next step for more precision materials.

When I got them, I put a set of 3 under DAVE and fired it up.  I couldn't believe what I was hearing: 3D'ness and detail in sound stage was off the charts.  With binaural recordings, I had a true forward/back/up/down immersive experience.  For recordings in large spaces (churches, etc) the feeling of being there was incredible.  This had gone from a throw away curiosity to something that needed a lot of attention.

My next step was to get a polished 12x6" ceramic tile from Home Depot.  I put this polished side down on the 3 roller balls, and the DAVE on top of that.  This took the effect next level still (the underside of the DAVE is rough, so the polished tile floats better on the roller balls).

Basically, I found the following: take the platform on the roller balls and starting it oscillating back and forth.  Measure the time it takes for it to stop oscillating.  The longer that time, the more freely the platform was floating, and the more amazing the sound scape I was hearing.  During my experiments (everything from bowl diameter to ball bearing diameter to ball bearing spherical precision to polishing techniques to ball bearing material hardness), I managed to get from ~30 seconds to ~90 seconds.  The correlation to better imagine and holographic feel was spot on: the freer the platform was to go back and forth, the better and more real things sounded.

I have a machinist friend, so I had him machine out bowls with various bowl indentation diameters (IIRC, Barry originally had 2" diameter bowls, and Ingress has 3" diameter indentations in the bowls).  The flatter the bowl, the lower the native resonance frequency of the bowl is, and the freer the motion.  Too shallow and things would just roll out of the bowl (not good).  I ended up with 4" and 5" diameter indentations in the bowls.

The hardness of the ball bearings made a difference (tungsten carbide vs chrome steel, etc), but a bigger impact was the spherical precision of the bearings (grade 25 chrome steel sounds better to me than grade 10 tungsten carbide). However, by far the biggest impact was the polish I was able to get in the bowl itself.  Can one hear the difference between bowls polished in different ways?  Crazy, but most definitely yes (again, very strong correlation to how long the platform would oscillate back and forth...better polish and higher precision bearings == longer oscillation).

So today I have my DAVE on the following: Acoustic Revive base (sounds worse not to have it...still need some vertical isolation), three 5" diameter bowls forming the biggest triangle I can, GS25 chrome steel bearings, 12x6" polished ceramic plate, DAVE.  I experimented with having the Black Ravioli pads in the mix, but it gave up too much surround spatial imaging to have them there.

Since I had a lot of these things lying around after all my experiments, I also have the roller balls under power supplies and all my electronics.  The impact diminishes the farther I get from my DAC, but it is still there (DAVE is the biggest impact by far). Basically, the closer something is electrically to the DAC, the more of an impact it is having.

For giggles (and because Barry swears by it), I also put these under my speakers (!). That was a much more challenging thing to do mechanically. In the end, I took the weight of the speakers, found sorbothane pads that are spec'ed for that weight (the material needs to be at an optimal pressure to be maximally vibration absorbing), and got a large marble tile to put on top of the sorbothane pads (one pad at each corner of the tile). This is the base for my speaker.  I then used double back sticky tape to tape three 5" indentation diameter bowls to the underside of the speakers (as big a triangle as I could make), and placed the speaker on three 4" indentation diameter bowls with a precision ball bearing between them.

Very very strange to touch a speaker and have it rocking back and forth, but the sandwich configuration it is quite safe (you can give them a big shove, they rock back and forth, but don't come out of the bowls).  The ingress engineering guy also has some screw in speaker feet that use a similar configuration.

A bonus of having the speakers on these roller ball bases is that it makes fine positioning of speaker much easier.  Anyone can use this technique to phase align their speakers, but it is 10x easier to do when you have the speakers on roller balls.

Here is my bonus trick for those of you that are trying to get hyper precise imaging and sound stage out of your 2 channel systems:

Level your speakers as best you can, and do your best to have toe in identical and the distance from the driver to your listening position as close to identical as you can (I did this by measuring to ~1mm the back corner of each speaker to the wall behind the speaker)  Find a mono pink noise FLAC on the internet and play it back through your system on a loop.  Have a buddy tweak one speaker until things pop into a crisp dot (move your head around...if your speakers are close to aligned, you'll hear it).  Keep having a friend adjust the speaker until that dot is right in front of you.  The crisper and tighter the dot, the more phase aligned your speakers (as an aside, great trick when you're tracking down reflections in your room...get rid of room reflections and the dot will snap in tighter and tighter).

Once you have it the best you can possibly get it, flip the phase on one of the speakers (swap the red and black inputs to the speaker).  The dot will now be a null spot where the sound from each speaker is canceling out the other.  Keep doing tweaks to maximize that null (including any room treatments you're doing).  The more perfect the cancelation of the out of phase mono pink noise, the more perfect the phase alignment of your speakers (and if you have single driver high efficiency speakers like the Omega Super Alnico Monitors or Voxativ's, you can get basically perfect phase alignment).  When all is done, go back to the correct wiring on your speaker, pop in a favorite track, and hear a sound stage you've never even dreamed of on your system.

Above pink noise speaker placement trick works for everyone of course (and I recommend it to everyone), but with the roller balls under the speakers, it is incredibly easy to get the speaker position dialed in perfectly with your finger tips: move the speaker until the dot/null is where it needs to be, then adjust the bowls so the speaker naturally rests in that spot.  Do that a couple times, and it will be dialed in perfectly.

Anyway, very very easy to try this sort of thing in your system: get a $5 polished ceramic tile from Home Depot, get some of the level 3 Ingress roller bowls ($150, fully refundable) and give it a try, or find 3 polished shallow ceramic bowls and some glass marbles ($10, not refundable) and give it a try.  If you like what you hear, there is more to be had, but that is a low risk way to see if the effort is worthwhile for you and your setup.  If you decide to go nuts, drop a PM and we can compare polishing tips and tricks 

For those that made it this far, if you're appreciating how amazing DAVE is, you're indirectly poking at the question of how the heck can our brains tell what is happening at -120dB to -300dB?  That's madness!  But it is also what Rob is measuring and what we're all hearing when we hear the amazing depth that you get from DAVE.

When you back out from that, it takes very very little to induce noise in that range.  Should you be able to perceive it?  All rational presumptions would say "of course not!".  However, the timing precision of Rob's designs has some psycho acoustic magic that dissipates when things at this level get introduced.

Back when I first started to get my head around the impossibility of what I was clearly hearing, I found this post by Rob very provocative, and it certainly opened my mind to the possibility that these seemingly trivial changes could have SQ impact:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-306#post-12845536


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## Amberlamps (Dec 8, 2019)

And the link to Rob's post still doesn't make me believe in it, except for his turntable.

It's amazing how the human brain can fool what seems like ordinary sensible people into believing that snake oil products actually work.

Edit,

For clarity's sake, I do believe that isolation products would help with analogue devices, turntables, speakers etc, but for dac's and other digital devices, no.


----------



## AndrewOld

Amberlamps said:


> And the link to Rob's post still doesn't make me believe in it, except for his turntable.
> 
> It's amazing how the human brain can fool what seems like ordinary sensible people into believing that snake oil products actually work.
> 
> ...



Check this video out. Seems to me to show that there may well be issues with microphony and a Mojo. Maybe the M Scaler is different. Maybe not. Maybe it matters.  Maybe it doesn’t. 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...hord-mojo-dac-and-amp.5120/page-6#post-114808


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## Amberlamps (Dec 8, 2019)

AndrewOld said:


> Check this video out. Seems to me to show that there may well be issues with microphony and a Mojo. Maybe the M Scaler is different. Maybe not. Maybe it matters.  Maybe it doesn’t.
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...hord-mojo-dac-and-amp.5120/page-6#post-114808



I haven't seen it yet, as I'm currently using my ipad with my new dac, ibasso DC01 balanced 384khz / dsd 256 dac, and my ipad can only have one stream at a time, but from what I read in the posts above it, it seems that there is vibration in mojo when charging and playing, versus playing from an ipad etc which means both are running off battery power.

To be honest, I have noticed it hiss when it's connected to a charger, when not connected to a charger, the hiss is gone. However, I don't think adding 4 isolators to each of the corners of mojo would cure that problem, I think only removing the usb charging cable would fix that problem.

Although I like my mojo, playing it whilst charging is a no no as they ALWAYS cut out after about 30 minutes due to overheating. I've had 3 mojo's, only one was a replacement.

Listening to


----------



## Natronious

ray-dude said:


> Wow @nbarnard36, I bow in your general direction...well played sir!



I appreciate the 'bow' Ray! I will remind you that you played a significant role in my ending up with both Dave _and _a Blu mkii. This from your excellent write ups. So you get all my bows (after Rob of course) in this thread!

Triode caught me though, my situation is more along the lines of coupling, rather than isolating. Basically I was just looking for an opportunity to join into the discussion. Did someone say footers/resonance/vibration, something something?

Also, I had to change my Avatar, as WiggaNuts was getting all ageist and stuff. With regards to all the silliness regarding footers, shelves, separating components...my treatments are not focused on addressing external vibrations, but rather internal. The idea being that even a component without moving parts deals with vibratory influences, even just from things like transformers, etc. Think of it as a way of totally redesigning a components case, sort of a no holds barred solution.

I realize that posting an image of such ridiculousness (lengths taken) does seem to suggest that this is a good idea, and that others should try it. But in actuality, I am making no claim that the path that I've followed should be tried by others. I am making no claim that this is the correct way. What I have experienced is that there is value in sorting out cabling (not bundling), separating components, that kind of thing. This stuff is just a way to present and frame the gear. For me, I like it. I've had these racks and wooden blocks for over 10 years and this setup has been good for me, and this is how I like to 'dress' my gear.

If I were to take the footers out from under my components, remove the wooden blocks, the sound would be fundamentally the same (to me). A little different, but mostly the same. A much bigger influence in my setup is the speaker placement. It's really great to have the speakers pulled out from the wall. And on the speaker stands. We had the stereo setup along a different wall in this room, and the walls were much more closed in on either side of the speakers, just cramping everything, in particular the sound. Also complicating matters is that the shape of the room is a long rectangle. So in the previous setup, there was this 'shoebox' effect thing going on. This musical friend of mine (instruments/conducting, not gear, he uses his laptop speakers for listening) actually turned me on to this 'issue', which I didn't have words for describing what was happening.

So changing the location of the speakers to their current spot opened up the sound in a huge way. The shoebox thing describes how the long distance from the speakers to the back wall, combined with the relatively shorter distance to either side 'messes with stuff'.

Also, even bigger revelation/improvement than brass footers with blocks of wood and speaker placement, was _finally _getting my new amps! Not only are these amps ridiculously wide in their bandwidth/high in their handmade auditory glory, but now I can finally skip the preamp. I had been using a old but amazing Naim amp (recapped, etc.), but as is the case with Naim, it didn't follow normal rules, and wouldn't work with Dave straight into it (bought a special cable to enable this). Just sounded wrong. I agonized over which amp to buy. There have been many good suggestions in this and other Chord threads (waiting on that Rob designed amp), and I'm curious to try some of them...I ended up going with these Omega Mikro amps. They're $20,000 new, but an used pair came up for half that. I paid to reserve them and saved up and finally had them shipped (this process began in March or so of 2018). The manufacturer really didn't want to ship them, and I very nearly made a vacation out of flying across the country. We were going to skip the backpacking vacation we had lined up. We were going to catch some US Open tennis in NY, rent a vehicle, drive to D.C. (amps location), and then take a road trip back, hitting up some family and seeing some sights (Devils Tower anyone?). Unfortunately, this didn't materialize, as my mom suggested that since we hadn't been to see her in too long, that it would be wrong for us to take this trip (guilt trip!). I didn't mention to her that we would have (would of?) stopped to see her. Oh well. 

Anyways, one of the amps came with a 'loose' toroid transformer, which pretty much destroyed the amps internals. What followed, was many months working towards finally getting resolution with the 3rd party insurance payout, sending the amp back, it being repaired, and then finally getting it back this fall. I just had to let it go and hold out hope that it would come to me eventually. And wow. The sound with my setup now is just incredible. Very pleased.

So I'm not here to proselytize, and tell others that I have found the (best) answers. I do desire to take myself lightly, and of course, I don't go on about all of this nonsense in my day to day. That's why I come here! I have a lot of thoughts on music playback, and have made many discoveries (like accurate sound reproduction and quality of tone/pleasing sound for instance, and how these things don't always perfectly overlap). The main thing is enjoyment. Does your setup give you enjoyment? That is the only thing that this 'hobby' comes down to. 

To recap. All of my equipment 'dressing', is more about presentation, aesthetics, fine tuning the sound, final percentages, etc. All very much secondary to the components themselves, and things like revelatory discoveries of transparency (Dave straight to amp), speaker placement.

Cheers everybody


----------



## Amberlamps

nbarnard36 said:


> I appreciate the 'bow' Ray! I will remind you that you played a significant role in my ending up with both Dave _and _a Blu mkii. This from your excellent write ups. So you get all my bows (after Rob of course) in this thread!
> 
> Triode caught me though, my situation is more along the lines of coupling, rather than isolating. Basically I was just looking for an opportunity to join into the discussion. Did someone say footers/resonance/vibration, something something?
> 
> ...



Holy schiit, I've found a youngster on the forums, I'm stunned 

My posts above, they were not aimed at Ray, he likes tweaking his systems and he likes writing about it to help others. I just find some tweaks dumb, like isolators, yes, I know it's for internal and external vibrations, I personally just think it's dumb but each to their own. 

I also can't understand how external isolators can help with internal vibrations when mains electricity is 50/60hz, those vibrations can't be stopped no matter how hard one tries. I could be wrong though.

Finally, I have a devious sense of humour, hence the I see dumb people image, and Ray is not dumb, far from it.

Now that I know that you are a youngster, do you wanna fcuk ?


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## musickid (Dec 9, 2019)

edit


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## musickid (Dec 8, 2019)

Aha but we can stop the cables from touching the floor. Enter Peter Holley's Classic Indian Cable Lifts. They speak volumes but can they move me emotionally i wonder like chord dacs too.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Amberlamps said:


> I also can't understand how external isolators can help with internal vibrations when mains electricity is 50/60hz, those vibrations can't be stopped no matter how hard one tries. I could be wrong though.



Specific designed footer drain the vibrations from the chassis/transformers & transfer them to the rack.


----------



## TheAttorney

ray-dude said:


> My next step was to get a polished 12x6" ceramic tile from Home Depot.  I put this polished side down on the 3 roller balls, and the DAVE on top of that.  This took the effect next level still (the underside of the DAVE is rough, so the polished tile floats better on the roller balls).



So many answers leading to so many questions...

Would not a mirror tile be even more polished than any ceramic tile from a DIY store?

Did you keep the original stock rubber feet between DAVE and tile?
If so, shouldn't the Black Ravioli footers peform better than stock? Your report suggests not.

I'm trying to visualize how stable the end result is....
If you have perfectly polished surfaces and roller balls, then even the slightest push to DAVE will send it flying back until it falls off the roller balls?
If so, the only thing providing any lateral stability at all would be the incoming cables.
And presumably, the stiffer the cables the greater the stability, but also the lesser the anti-vibration effect?


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## rkt31 (Dec 9, 2019)

There is a reason condenser mics are detached from stands and suspended. This is enough of hint why any hard point to point contact won't help in isolation of Dave or any equipment. If at all you could place Dave on very soft silicon air filled bubbles. So imho soft rubber feets are next best thing after these bubbles.


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## musickid (Dec 9, 2019)

what about the choral stand where dave is raised from the ground. chord emphasise it's high quality as one that goes beyond the aesthetics. maybe a chord dave isolation thread is in order.


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## TheAttorney (Dec 9, 2019)

rkt31 said:


> ......This is enough of hint why any hard point to point contact won't help in isolation of Dave or any equipment.



The objective of many audiophile footers is to drain away the component's own vibrations into the hifi rack - and then stop that vibration being reflected back into the component.
And that typically requires hard, often pointy, materilals.

The combination of footers/damping plates and hifi racks needs to simultaneously handle several sources of vibration:

   - Caused by the component itself (e.g. its mains transformer)
   - Other components on the shelf or rack
   - Airborne vibration (e.g. caused by loudspeakers)
   - AC Mains power
   - seismic vibration from earth, the building etc

This can be done with various combinations of hard and soft materials, and my own expirments have shown that it's hard to predict what will and won't work in a particular circumstance.

Back to your microphone example: The reason why studio engineers may avoid microphone direct contact with mirophone stands is that a typical pro stand is probably very poor at handling the above various types of vibration. My guess is that a typical aluminium stand is particularly good at transmitting floor vibrations into the microphone.
No doubt an audiphile designed stand would fair better - maybe one that can move about on roller balls 
   -


----------



## ray-dude

TheAttorney said:


> So many answers leading to so many questions...
> 
> Would not a mirror tile be even more polished than any ceramic tile from a DIY store?
> 
> ...



good questions councilor. Remember that the ball bearing that the platform sits on sits in a polished hardened aluminum bowl. Barry Diament has a 2” diameter indentation in the bowl, Ingress Engineering has a 3” diameter indentation in the bowl, and I settled on 4” and 5” diameter indentations in the bowls. I find 5” fairly stable (as far as things not rolling off) but I wasn’t motivated to go any farther.  In sum, the cup of the bowl provides the lateral stability. 

I do have my stock rubber feet on my DAVE.  I have not removed them to try without. I did try having the BR pads between the platform and the DAVE and preferred the imaging without. BR pads are not thick enough to rest the DAVE directly on them without removing the stock rubber feet (which I don’t want to do). 

I’m sure there are lots of options for material for the platform that sit on three ball bearings. Polished ceramic tiles were convenient, not the result of a larger survey. I think any highly polished hard surface would do. 

Taking a step back, the stack I have is decoupling vertical isolation from horizontal isolation. The Acoustic Revive and footers on the DAVE are doing vertical isolation, and the hard contact points and bearings are “floating” things horizontally.  

With a horizontal (including rotational) resonant frequency of ~1Hz and a dampening time of ~90 seconds, it is pretty well floated In The horizontal plane.  

the biggest surprise for me was how much horizontal isolation impacted SQ. That was (and still is) completely unexpected.  I also can’t speak to how much is unique to my setup and room, and how much is a general benefit.  This one is cheap enough and easy enough to try (once one gets past the “I cant believe I’m doing this” embarrassment  that I’m looking forward to hearing what others hear


----------



## JaZZ

It would be interesting to see measurements from acceleration sensors on DAVE and other components which would reveal how much (lateral) vibration there effectively is that has to be dealt with. It must be of low frequency, considering the weight of the components, but it's still not clear to me how clearing the way for the movements can have a positive impact on the concerned electronics and finally sound quality.

I'm not generally doubting your findings, mind you! But I guess I'm just not willing to drive the quest for perfection so far. And after all it's just one field beside many more. I admire your dedication with which you sacrifice your leasure time and share your findings. That's why I called you a second _Romaz_.


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## rkt31

TheAttorney said:


> The objective of many audiophile footers is to drain away the component's own vibrations into the hifi rack - and then stop that vibration being reflected back into the component.
> And that typically requires hard, often pointy, materilals.
> 
> The combination of footers/damping plates and hifi racks needs to simultaneously handle several sources of vibration:
> ...


Imho we are confused whether to use isolation or dissipation for better performance. A rigid connection to other more heavy rigid thing will not dissipate much of energy. You need something with damping properties which absorbs vibration and does not allow to revert it back to device. Imagine if you remove the springs from the shock absorbers. Vibration will not be absorbed much. That's why rubber feet are next best thing after complete isolation like suspension. Even roller balls will only absorb lateral vibration not vertical. Off course there are practical difficulties in suspension. Remember the best turn tables have even floating type platter to avoid any harmful effect of vibrations. Vibration either of unit itself or of outside need to be effectively dampened.


----------



## FunkyBassMan (Dec 9, 2019)

I have my Dave suspended in a quantum vacuum of .00000014 particles/m^3, which is the best I've been able to achieve with poor quality products I've received from the Russian space program.  So I've sent an 7 figure check to the government of Switzerland so that when the CERN accelerator gets its rebuild next year, they will send me some superconducting parts I can use to see if I can improve the quantum vacuum.  I've also noticed that on certain recordings, some violins sound a little screechy, which I'm pretty sure has to do with the relativistic effects increase of having the Dave up on a high shelf and further away from the earth's center of gravity.  So we will be moving 13,000 feet underground into a cave system beneath a small town in Bolivia to get those relativistic timing problems down a tick or two. 

Also, living under 2 miles of rock rock, neutrino interference should be reduced by maybe as much as 2-3%, so it's kind of an awesome 2 birds with one stone thing.  We're pretty psyched.  Not sure what we'll eat though.


----------



## Amberlamps (Dec 9, 2019)

FunkyBassMan said:


> I have my Dave suspended in a quantum vacuum of .00000014 particles/m^3, which is the best I've been able to achieve with poor quality products I've received from the Russian space program.  So I've sent an 7 figure check to the government of Switzerland so that when the CERN accelerator gets its rebuild next year, they will send me some superconducting parts I can use to see if I can improve the quantum vacuum.  I've also noticed that on certain recordings, some violins sound a little screechy, which I'm pretty sure has to do with the relativistic effects increase of having the Dave up on a high shelf and further away from the earth's center of gravity.  So we will be moving 13,000 feet underground into a cave system beneath a small town in Bolivia to get those relativistic timing problems down a tick or two.
> 
> Also, living under 2 miles of rock rock, neutrino interference should be reduced by maybe as much as 2-3%, so it's kind of an awesome 2 birds with one stone thing.  We're pretty psyched.  Not sure what we'll eat though.




I've got my TT2 in a tokamak at the jet lab in england.

It did nothing but vaporise my TT2.






I knew I should of bought a silver TT2 instead of a black one.


----------



## miketlse

Amberlamps said:


> I've got my TT2 in a tokamak at the jet lab in england.
> 
> It did nothing but vaporise my TT2.
> 
> ...


I told you not to let Robs secret out of the bag.
Now everyone has seen those rows of TT3 used as tiles, on the central pillar of the torus.


----------



## Amberlamps

miketlse said:


> I told you not to let Robs secret out of the bag.
> Now everyone has seen those rows of TT3 used as tiles, on the central pillar of the torus.



The TT3's on the right are playing a 705.6 khz track hence the purple light.


----------



## miketlse

Amberlamps said:


> The TT3's on the right are playing a 705.6 khz track hence the purple light.


No doubt someone will complain that the 256MScalers, that line the outer walls, glow and run hot now that they have been radiation hardened.


----------



## ekfc63

I also asked this on the TT2 thread.  Has anyone successfully powered the TT2 or Dave off a Poweradd Pilot Pro 2 battery pack?


----------



## Triode User

ekfc63 said:


> I also asked this on the TT2 thread.  Has anyone successfully powered the TT2 or Dave off a Poweradd Pilot Pro 2 battery pack?



I did try a TT2 off a Poweradd Pilot Pro 2 battery and also an Mscaler but in both cases I decided that using batteries in a home system was not for me because of the faff or recharging and I no longer use them.

Regarding Dave, I am afraid you will have to explain to me exactly how you think you would be able to power it off a battery because it is not immediately obvious.


----------



## ekfc63

Triode User said:


> I did try a TT2 off a Poweradd Pilot Pro 2 battery and also an Mscaler but in both cases I decided that using batteries in a home system was not for me because of the faff or recharging and I no longer use them.



And did it work?



Triode User said:


> Regarding Dave, I am afraid you will have to explain to me exactly how you think you would be able to power it off a battery because it is not immediately obvious.



Its not for any performance benefits, just for use in certain one-off situations.


----------



## ZappaMan

ekfc63 said:


> And did it work?
> 
> 
> 
> Its not for any performance benefits, just for use in certain one-off situations.


The pp2 does not have compatible connections for Dave. Yes a pp2 works with tt2 at 12v, if you want to use it in the garden, but it may invalidate your warranty.


----------



## Amberlamps

ZappaMan said:


> The pp2 does not have compatible connections for Dave. Yes a pp2 works with tt2 at 12v, if you want to use it in the garden, but it *WILL* invalidate your warranty.



Fixt it for you.


----------



## ekfc63

ZappaMan said:


> The pp2 does not have compatible connections for Dave. Yes a pp2 works with tt2 at 12v, if you want to use it in the garden, but it may invalidate your warranty.



that’s right.  Didn’t think my thought through before posting.


----------



## ZappaMan

Amberlamps said:


> Fixt it for you.


Is that definite ? Or is it only other non battery power supplies as I’m not totally clear on the point.


----------



## Amberlamps

ZappaMan said:


> Is that definite ? Or is it only other non battery power supplies as I’m not totally clear on the point.



Using anything other than the supplied psu will invalidate the warranty if chord become aware of it.


----------



## Triode User (Dec 10, 2019)

ZappaMan said:


> Is that definite ? Or is it only other non battery power supplies as I’m not totally clear on the point.



I think that the only safe advice is that if an aftermarket power supply of any type or make is used and damages the Chord device then it will be perfectly obvious to Chord when they do a post mortem and they see what has caused the damage. Understandably all warranties will be withdrawn in those circumstances.

The poweradd battery is perfectly capable of destroying an MScaler or TT2 if used with the wrong voltage setting because the 16v setting on the poweradd battery supplies well over 16v. In those circumstances saying that RW uses one will do little good in warranty discussions. The 12v setting on the poweradd battery ought to be safe unless there is an over voltage malfunction.

My comments are not so much aimed at you Zappa rather for any others to understand that they are potentially on their own no matter which non Chord power supply they use. Snowflakes are better off using the Chord power supplies unless they are prepared to take the consequences.


----------



## STR-1

Triode User said:


> As I have said before, the MScaler is rated at up to 16v but the 16v setting on the poweradd battery supplies well over 16v. In those circumstances saying that RW uses one will do little good in warranty discussions.


M Scaler is rated between 9V-15V.  Rob has said more than once that he has the PP2 set to 12V when powering the M Scaler.


----------



## ZappaMan

Triode User said:


> I think that the only safe advice is that if an aftermarket power supply of any type or make is used and damages the Chord device then it will be perfectly obvious to Chord when they do a post mortem and they see what has caused the damage. Understandably all warranties will be withdrawn in those circumstances.
> 
> The poweradd battery is perfectly capable of destroying an MScaler or TT2 if used with the wrong voltage setting and in that case also Chord can be expected to withdraw their warranty. As I have said before, the MScaler is rated at up to 16v but the 16v setting on the poweradd battery supplies well over 16v. In those circumstances saying that RW uses one will do little good in warranty discussions.
> 
> My comments are not so much aimed at you Zappa rather for any others to understand that they are potentially on their own no matter which non Chord power supply they use. Snowflakes are better off using the Chord power supplies unless they are prepared to take the consequences.


no, its ok, i use the supplied psu.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Does anyone remember what DAVE'S single ended max output at -3db is (DAC mode)? What volume setting would give me a maximum of 2v single ended?
Thanks
Marc


----------



## ecwl

marcmccalmont said:


> Does anyone remember what DAVE'S single ended max output at -3db is (DAC mode)? What volume setting would give me a maximum of 2v single ended?
> Thanks
> Marc


-3db is 3V so -7dB is approximately 2V


----------



## marcmccalmont (Dec 12, 2019)

ecwl said:


> -3db is 3V so -7dB is approximately 2V


Thanks! I'm trying a Schitt Freya S preamp and it's distortion rises above 2v input I'll set Dave at -9 to be safe
I'm comparing a $14000 Spectral 30SV to the $700 Schitt
BTW Schitt's Asgard III headphone amp hits way above its price point


----------



## rkt31

marcmccalmont said:


> Thanks! I'm trying a Schitt Freya S preamp and it's distortion rises above 2v I'll set Dave at -9 to be safe
> I'm comparing a $14000 Spectral 30SV to the $700 Schitt
> BTW Schitt's Asgard III headphone amp hits way above its price point


Dedicated analog pre with Dave is not required. It can be fed to a power amp directly. Even if pre or headphone amp is to be used, then use AAA tech based pre like benchmark hpa4 or AAA tech based headphone amp. There is no point in using a $14k pre after advent of AAA tech.


----------



## marcmccalmont

rkt31 said:


> Dedicated analog pre with Dave is not required. It can be fed to a power amp directly. Even if pre or headphone amp is to be used, then use AAA tech based pre like benchmark hpa4 or AAA tech based headphone amp. There is no point in using a $14k pre after advent of AAA tech.


I'm integrating a SME turntable into the system. Tried the benchmark, the AAA tech uses too much feedback to get the low distortion killed the life of the music. DAVE balanced into my amps was not as good as DAVE single ended into the Spectral preamp. Just my opinion that low distortion achieved by good circuit design sounds better than low distortion achieved with excessive feedback. Your system might be different.


----------



## rkt31

marcmccalmont said:


> I'm integrating a SME turntable into the system. Tried the benchmark, the AAA tech uses too much feedback to get the low distortion killed the life of the music. DAVE balanced into my amps was not as good as DAVE single ended into the Spectral preamp. Just my opinion that low distortion achieved by good circuit design sounds better than low distortion achieved with excessive feedback. Your system might be different.


Feedaback can't remove all types of distortion. AAA tech is something different than simple feedback as far as i know.


----------



## marcmccalmont

rkt31 said:


> Feedaback can't remove all types of distortion. AAA tech is something different than simple feedback as far as i know.


Yes you are correct but I tried the benchmark, sounded worse than it's numbers would tell you. I spent several years listening to DAVE directly into my Spectral power amps, liked it so much I sold my Spectral 20 SII and 30 Ss II preamps. I'm now back home and want to integrate a turntable into the system. My friend who I trust his ears and technical expertise and I have been searching for a great preamp that would not limit our systems. He worked for Bell labs , has a audio precision analyzer and a distortion analyzer designed by Bob Cordell. The best we have found so far is the Spectral 30sv but the Schitt might be a contender, I just want to give it a fair chance, let it break in, don't overload the input etc. For years I stayed  away from Spectral because of its wide bandwith design but for the last 7 years I've adopted it and must agree with their design philosophy Ultra wide bandwidth means feedback artifacts are ultrasonic thus inaudible. The fastest cleanest sweetest sounding electronics that I have had in my system, wish they weren't so expensive


----------



## rkt31

marcmccalmont said:


> Yes you are correct but I tried the benchmark, sounded worse than it's numbers would tell you. I spent several years listening to DAVE directly into my Spectral power amps, liked it so much I sold my Spectral 20 SII and 30 Ss II preamps. I'm now back home and want to integrate a turntable into the system. My friend who I trust his ears and technical expertise and I have been searching for a great preamp that would not limit our systems. He worked for Bell labs , has a audio precision analyzer and a distortion analyzer designed by Bob Cordell. The best we have found so far is the Spectral 30sv but the Schitt might be a contender, I just want to give it a fair chance, let it break in, don't overload the input etc. For years I stayed  away from Spectral because of its wide bandwith design but for the last 7 years I've adopted it and must agree with their design philosophy Ultra wide bandwidth means feedback artifacts are ultrasonic thus inaudible. The fastest cleanest sweetest sounding electronics that I have had in my system, wish they weren't so expensive


Did you try dave direct into benchmark ahb2 in low gain mode ? I don't have Dave but have TT 2+HMS which feeds ahb2 directly into low gain mode. Tt2 also being low gain mode. The advantage is that TT 2 this way operates in it's high output range and low gain of benchmark ahb2 multiplies it only by 3x factor in low gain. So it's a win win situation. If you use any pre, it has output sensitivity of only 1v (or at the most 2v) so even if you set Dave at 3v or more the output of it first goes through analog volume pot of pre where the output of Dave would get reduced to much much below 1v as 1v is the max the pre can take. Then that highly attenuated signal goes into pre gain stage and buffer etc . So why to degrade clean and high output by unnecessary electronics.


----------



## ekfc63 (Dec 12, 2019)

As a recent Dave owner (got mine last Friday ) I'm gradually working my way through the 900+ pages of this thread.  I'm on page 120 something from 2016 where the digital amp Rob is working on is first brought up.  What has happened to this amp? As an Abyss 1266 TC owner this is an intriguing option that would minimize or eliminate the loss of transparency from using an add on amp.


----------



## Triode User

ekfc63 said:


> As a recent Dave owner (got mine last Friday ) I'm gradually working my way through the 900+ pages of this thread.  I'm on page 120 something from 2016 where the digital amp Rob is working on is first brought up.  What has happened to this amp? As an Abyss 1266 TC owner this is an intriguing option that would minimize or eliminate the loss of transparency from using an add on amp.



The digital amps are still on the agenda but perhaps do not hold your breath. In my experience the transparency of the Dave is so far ahead of anything else that even if another amp is added it is way head in the transparency stakes.


----------



## ekfc63 (Dec 12, 2019)

Triode User said:


> In my experience the transparency of the Dave is so far ahead of anything else that even if another amp is added it is way head in the transparency stakes.



Agreed, once experienced its hard to give up.  Thats why i prefer not to use an amp even though many think it needs one with the 1266s.


----------



## miketlse

ekfc63 said:


> As a recent Dave owner (got mine last Friday ) I'm gradually working my way through the 900+ pages of this thread.  I'm on page 120 something from 2016 where the digital amp Rob is working on is first brought up.  What has happened to this amp? As an Abyss 1266 TC owner this is an intriguing option that would minimize or eliminate the loss of transparency from using an add on amp.


Yes the talk of the DX amps did get everyone excited, but here is the Chord feedback about them.


----------



## ekfc63

miketlse said:


> Yes the talk of the DX amps did get everyone excited, but here is the Chord feedback about them.




You saved me 800 pages of reading.  Thanks!


----------



## rrolls

ecwl said:


> -3db is 3V so -7dB is approximately 2V



Regarding output voltage vs dB, there is a RW post, which I can't find at the moment.
Probably someone can help, because I remember these figures were different.


----------



## jlbrach

ekfc63 said:


> Agreed, once experienced its hard to give up.  Thats why i prefer not to use an amp even though many think it needs one with the 1266s.



I use the formula s/powerman with dave/blu2 and my abyss TC and Susvara.....both of these TOTL HP's require an amp IMHO although one can get by with the Dave straight into the Abyss if that is the preference...the loss of transparency is unfortunate but minimal with a good choice of amp


----------



## ekfc63

jlbrach said:


> I use the formula s/powerman with dave/blu2 and my abyss TC and Susvara.....both of these TOTL HP's require an amp IMHO although one can get by with the Dave straight into the Abyss if that is the preference...the loss of transparency is unfortunate but minimal with a good choice of amp



Sadly Formula S /Powerman is unavailable for audition in my location.


----------



## x RELIC x

ekfc63 said:


> As a recent Dave owner (got mine last Friday ) I'm gradually working my way through the 900+ pages of this thread.  I'm on page 120 something from 2016 where the digital amp Rob is working on is first brought up.  What has happened to this amp? As an Abyss 1266 TC owner this is an intriguing option that would minimize or eliminate the loss of transparency from using an add on amp.



The output stage of the TT2 is based off of the DX amp, FYI. Huge Current and power for such a simple output stage.


----------



## ekfc63

ekfc63 said:


> Sadly Formula S /Powerman is unavailable for audition in my location.


My local dealer here in Vancouver is getting the Formula S in so I’ll give it a try.


----------



## anygreg

Noticing members mentioning used DAVE’s coming up for sale, and deals that can’t be missed. What is the DAVE running at used in the UK? What constitutes a good deal with Chord kit? Are we talking 50% off RRP ? Or would you consider the DAVE to be holding its value well in the used market? I keep seeing the same one on eBay up for £6k not selling, intrigued to know from those that have bought used what deal they got? Thanks guys.


----------



## kerisabe

anygreg said:


> Noticing members mentioning used DAVE’s coming up for sale, and deals that can’t be missed. What is the DAVE running at used in the UK? What constitutes a good deal with Chord kit? Are we talking 50% off RRP ? Or would you consider the DAVE to be holding its value well in the used market? I keep seeing the same one on eBay up for £6k not selling, intrigued to know from those that have bought used what deal they got? Thanks guys.



here in indonesia, a used Dave in very good condition usually up for sale at around £4200-4300. But we dont see many used ones around, maybe 1-2x in a couple of months.


----------



## anygreg (Dec 16, 2019)

kerisabe said:


> here in indonesia, a used Dave in very good condition usually up for sale at around £4200-4300. But we dont see many used ones around, maybe 1-2x in a couple of months.



Ah ok, thanks for the reply. so looking at 50% of retails as a rough guide. Which would you guys say is more desirable  Colour wise black or silver? I like the silver unit,  but my kit is mainly black. Either would work curious to know if couloir has an influence on resale value or not in your experience?


----------



## Triode User

anygreg said:


> Noticing members mentioning used DAVE’s coming up for sale, and deals that can’t be missed. What is the DAVE running at used in the UK? What constitutes a good deal with Chord kit? Are we talking 50% off RRP ? Or would you consider the DAVE to be holding its value well in the used market? I keep seeing the same one on eBay up for £6k not selling, intrigued to know from those that have bought used what deal they got? Thanks guys.



In the UK I have seen actual sold prices (as opposed to advert prices) between £5,000 and £7,000 compared to a new retail price of £8,500.


----------



## anygreg

Triode User said:


> In the UK I have seen actual sold prices (as opposed to advert prices) between £5,000 and £7,000 compared to a new retail price of £8,500.



These pieces of kit ain’t cheap, it’s good to know that huge discounts aren’t being handed out which massively affects the used prices. After all at some point we all get upgradeitous. Porsche are good at this. Last thing anyone wants is to shell out £8.5k only to find its worth £2k a year later.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Just wondering, I been reading up & can the crossfeed options be used in DAC mode or is it only available in Headphone mode?

Also how do you select between USB/AES/Optical connections? The manual online doesn't state anything.


----------



## musickid

xfd is just for headphones as it introduces a left right delay in the audio reaching the ear which in turn mimics loudspeaker effect.


----------



## ubs28 (Dec 20, 2019)

I have a strange problem with the Chord Dave.

Samsung 4K QLED TV --> Chord Dave works fine for streaming audio.

However for movies I get buzzing noise if the optical output is in Dolby Digital format. The only way to fix this is to disable Dolby Digital manually and then the Chord Dave works fine for movies (however only for 2 channels obviously).

Is this behaviour normal? With my receiver I have no such buzzing issues with Dolby Digital so it looks the problem is the Chord Dave.

I would expect that the Chord Dave outputs 2-channel audio automatically without buzzing when it is fed by a Dolby Digital output.


----------



## Triode User (Dec 20, 2019)

ubs28 said:


> I have a strange problem with the Chord Dave.
> 
> Samsung 4K QLED TV --> Chord Dave works fine for streaming audio.
> 
> ...



The problem is not with the Chord Dave, it is with you trying to feed Dolby Digital format to a 2 channel device. I suspect that your receiver is an AV device which expects to deal with Dolby Digital format.

I set my Samsung TV to output a normal 2 channel signal to Dave via optical. I would not expect a 2 channel digital device to decode Dolby Digital format.


----------



## TheAttorney

Thenewguy007 said:


> Just wondering, I been reading up & can the crossfeed options be used in DAC mode or is it only available in Headphone mode?
> Also how do you select between USB/AES/Optical connections? The manual online doesn't state anything.



Crossfeed is effective in both headphone and DAC modes, but can only be adjusted when in headphone mode.
This previously discussed  "design oversight" is OK when DAC mode is used to drive an external headphone amp, but is a pain if DAC mode is used to drive loudspeakers.
So if you are frequently switching between headphone and DAC modes, you have to remember to check that crossfeed is set as intended before switching to DAC mode.

The inputs are switched by the left and right buttons on either side of the volume control (also somewhere on the remote that I don't use for that purpose).
There's a poor usability feature in that the left/right buttons change the input by default, but change the other functions (e.g. Crossfeed, Phase) when one of those is highlighted.
If you highlight one of those functions, you have to wait about 10 seconds for the highlight to timeout before you can change the input. Otherwise you accidently change the Crossfeed when you really meant to change inputs and vice versa, depending on what is and isn't highlighted at the time. This dreadful piece of design logic really bugs me. I've brought it up in the past and I'm surprised that other users don't seem to mind - maybe they just don't use these functions much?


----------



## ubs28

Triode User said:


> The problem is not with the Chord Dave, it is with you trying to feed Dolby Digital format to a 2 channel device. I suspect that your receiver is an AV device which expects to deal with Dolby Digital format.
> 
> I set my Samsung TV to output a normal 2 channel signal to Dave via optical. I would not expect a 2 channel digital device to decode Dolby Digital format.



But shouldn't the Chord Dave convert the Dolby Digital to a 2-channel audio? So basically something like this.

if audio.format == "dolby.digital":
convert.dolby_2channel(audio)​
But if Chord Dave indeed doesn't work with Dolby Digital, then I suppose there is nothing wrong with my Chord Dave.


----------



## iDesign

ubs28 said:


> there is nothing wrong with my Chord Dave.


Correct.


----------



## Triode User

I have bought an outboard power supply for the Dave and have been listening for just under a week. I am happy. 

I do not intend to debate this in the thread but I’m happy to pass on details if anyone messages me.


----------



## marcmccalmont

TheAttorney said:


> Crossfeed is effective in both headphone and DAC modes, but can only be adjusted when in headphone mode.
> This previously discussed  "design oversight" is OK when DAC mode is used to drive an external headphone amp, but is a pain if DAC mode is used to drive loudspeakers.
> So if you are frequently switching between headphone and DAC modes, you have to remember to check that crossfeed is set as intended before switching to DAC mode.
> 
> ...


It really bothers me a lot,  in the past I suggested a firmware upgrade to correct this, most people took Chords side "no firmware changes" criticizing me for the suggestion!  Wow a $10,000 dollar flag ship product and no firmware revision to correct a menu


----------



## marcmccalmont (Dec 21, 2019)

Triode User said:


> I have bought an outboard power supply for the Dave and have been listening for just under a week. I am happy.
> 
> I do not intend to debate this in the thread but I’m happy to pass on details if anyone messages me.


My friend has gotten great results with a linear power supply and Qutest, better measured results than a stock Dave, 21.5 bits! He measured Dave at 20 bits. I'm curious Dave has several onboard power supplies how are these bypassed? Who makes the power supply?


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> My friend has gotten great results with a linear power supply and Qutest, better measured results than a stock Dave, 21.5 bits! He measured Dave at 20 bits. I'm curious Dave has several onboard power supplies how are these bypassed? Who makes the power supply?



I’m happy to answer all these questions but perhaps best by PM. It makes quite an audible difference though.


----------



## JaZZ

marcmccalmont said:


> It really bothers me a lot,  in the past I suggested a firmware upgrade to correct this, most people took Chords side "no firmware changes" criticizing me for the suggestion!  Wow a $10,000 dollar flag ship product and no firmware revision to correct a menu


It would mean you can't use crossfeed for electrostats and headphones that need an extra amp – hence a bad move. As it is now, you have all possibilities, just to take care not to have crossfeed engaged with speakers –  a luxury problem.


----------



## marcmccalmont

JaZZ said:


> It would mean you can't use crossfeed for electrostats and headphones that need an extra amp – hence a bad move. As it is now, you have all possibilities, just to take care not to have crossfeed engaged with speakers –  a luxury problem.


I didn't propose removing the function when not in headphone mode, but allowing it to be displayed and switched in both modes


----------



## JaZZ

Sorry for misinterpreting! Now that would be an improvement – but not worth the effort of a firmware upgrade in my book – since you would have to send your unit in.


----------



## TheAttorney (Dec 22, 2019)

marcmccalmont said:


> I didn't propose removing the function when not in headphone mode, but allowing it to be displayed and switched in both modes



Exactly!

Regarding S/W updates, PS Audio design their products such that customers can download updates with no fuss. And updates are regularly available.
I think Chord took the "right first time" approach, so no provisions were made for easy s/w update, so I'm not expecting anything here any time soon.

So I'll get my vote in early for DAVE 2 (sometime in the next decade or two) so that they can get it right first time:

An even bigger, OLED (wide viewing angles), higher resolution, touch screen.
That has all the functions displayed all of the time.
And each function can be changed directly by touching it, so no need to scroll around highlighting things that then time out.

So the only physical control remaining would for volume (nice to have that physical even if it duplicates a touch screen volume control).
And a user downoadable s/w update process - because, after years of managing s/w developements, I can confidently say that nobody has ever, ever, ever got everything right first time.

This will increase the costs considerably I suspect, but user satisfaction and pride of ownership would go through the roof.

Edit: I suppose most of the display wish list could be accomplished by a smartphone app etc


----------



## iDesign

maxh22 said:


> When I read what you wrote I instantly thought of Schiit. They offer upgrades from their Bifrost line to the Yggdrasil.
> 
> Upgrades are less expensive than a whole new box and stuff doesn't get thrown out.
> 
> ...


I remember saying exactly this as far back as 2016:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-204#post-12595599


----------



## llamaluv

Seems like all the manufacturers are going more-and-more integrated, so I wouldn't be surprised if the next Chord flagship DAC had network streaming built-in. Just a thought.


----------



## ray-dude

That would be nice if they could pull it off, but I take a contrary view.  Chord has shown how difficult it is to do software with the Poly (and 2Go), and they are clearly still very very far from the standard that Rob has set on the FPGA and HQ sides. 

When there is a successor to DAVE, I hope it reflects every atom of Rob's considerable talents in designing the ultimate DAC, and is not held back for what could be years for work on the software and network side.  Connecting a $500 NUC running Euphony to anything that Rob designs will be light years better than anything Chord is able to do on an integrated unit.

As an aside, I suspect the path for summit fi DAC's will be more separates (DAC unit, upsampler unit (mScaler), power supply, reference clock, streamer end point), each pushed to the very limit of quality.  We're already more than half way there with DAVE and mScaler and a premium streamer box like the Innous, and folks are DIY pushing it farther still.  Of these pieces, the streamer is the piece that is cheapest/most off the shelf, and the one where technologies change the fastest (every 12 months or so).  I don't think most folks would be happy dropping $50k on a flagship, and having the streamer component already out of date a year on the day they purchase it.

All that being said, it is very very easy with today's DAVE to be pushing a $30-40k digital chain, so the market is certainly there for that level of summit fi at the flagship level.  I'm sure has their eye on that market.  Can't wait to see what sonic miracles Rob is able to conjure with a "BOM be damned!" design remit!


----------



## iDesign (Dec 22, 2019)

llamaluv said:


> Seems like all the manufacturers are going more-and-more integrated, so I wouldn't be surprised if the next Chord flagship DAC had network streaming built-in. Just a thought.


And I’m not sure it represents progress when you consider the problems and compatibility issues companies have had with integrating network streaming (e.g. Poly, dCS Moasic, etc, etc.). I would prefer Chord continue to offer more focused devices with adequate i/o so they are less susceptible to becoming instantly obsolete.


----------



## llamaluv

Seems like audio manufacturers so often prove to be in over their heads when they cake on extra digital features (Speaking of which, weren't we just talking about how the Chord DACs have no firmware upgrade path ). I'm also not a fan of the "let's integrate everything" approach. So yea, hopefully, their next flagship DAC won't take (increasingly popular?) route of adding unwanted or poorly executed "features" to justify markup.


----------



## audio_1

iDesign said:


> And I’m not sure it represents progress when you consider the problems and compatibility issues companies have had with integrating network streaming (e.g. Poly, dCS Moasic, etc, etc.). I would prefer Chord continue to offer more focused devices with adequate i/o so they are less susceptible to becoming instantly obsolete.



I agree, hopefully Chord will incorporate an optical interface between the Dave 2 and the Choral Mscaler. Fibre as widely used in computer networks surely wouldn't be much more expensive to implement than properly designed dual BNC connections. These will always be a comprise. The Opto-DX has been a fantastic addition to my system. It allowed me use a laptop as a high quality streamer. An external upgraded power supply would be a good option. The clock should be internal and as close to the DAC as possible.


----------



## miketlse (Dec 22, 2019)

ray-dude said:


> That would be nice if they could pull it off, but I take a contrary view.  Chord has shown how difficult it is to do software with the Poly (and 2Go), and they are clearly still very very far from the standard that Rob has set on the FPGA and HQ sides.
> 
> When there is a successor to DAVE, I hope it reflects every atom of Rob's considerable talents in designing the ultimate DAC, and is not held back for what could be years for work on the software and network side.  Connecting a $500 NUC running Euphony to anything that Rob designs will be light years better than anything Chord is able to do on an integrated unit.
> 
> ...


I think that you are talking a lot of sense.
For Chord to produce an 'all in one' would require a change in the Rob Watts/Chord way of working.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831343/page-248#post-14353506

Historically the dac code has been Robs responsibility, and the streamer code seems to be Matts responsibility/accountability.
I can imagine that the lowest business risk way forward, is for Rob to continue to be responsible for the dac code, and Matt to be responsible for the streamer code side of activities.
To me, integrating everything into one package, seems like the biggest roadblock at present.
Personally I would like Chord to produce a streamer plus hard drive package, in a TT2 sized form factor, because that could act as an input source to the TT2 or DAVE.
One product, but several markets.
That would be my preferred solution, optimise the streamer, and optimise the dac.


----------



## miketlse

audio_1 said:


> I agree, hopefully Chord will incorporate an optical interface between the Dave 2 and the Choral Mscaler. Fibre as widely used in computer networks surely wouldn't be much more expensive to implement than properly designed dual BNC connections. These will always be a comprise. The Opto-DX has been a fantastic addition to my system. It allowed me use a laptop as a high quality streamer. An external upgraded power supply would be a good option. The clock should be internal and as close to the DAC as possible.


I think that is the next horizon for Chord to explore.


----------



## marcmccalmont

audio_1 said:


> I agree, hopefully Chord will incorporate an optical interface between the Dave 2 and the Choral Mscaler. Fibre as widely used in computer networks surely wouldn't be much more expensive to implement than properly designed dual BNC connections. These will always be a comprise. The Opto-DX has been a fantastic addition to my system. It allowed me use a laptop as a high quality streamer. An external upgraded power supply would be a good option. The clock should be internal and as close to the DAC as possible.


Hopefully the 1M upscaler  is implemented on the same FPGA as the DAC in Dave II


----------



## audio_1

marcmccalmont said:


> Hopefully the 1M upscaler  is implemented on the same FPGA as the DAC in Dave II



I think a separate unit for the inputs, which can also contain the mscaler is a benefit. All sources can be connected to this, with just one high bandwidth optical connection to Dave. This solves so many problems.


----------



## marcmccalmont

audio_1 said:


> I think a separate unit for the inputs, which can also contain the mscaler is a benefit. All sources can be connected to this, with just one high bandwidth optical connection to Dave. This solves so many problems.


but not a double spdif conversion and all chord dacs already have an upscaler that is bypassed with the mscaler and Rob would have less timing and ground issues


----------



## Triode User (Dec 23, 2019)

But with the eventual digital amps the Dave is redundant, ie the MScaler goes direct into the amp, so that is the real way forward and perhaps why Dave 2 is not a priority? (As well as it being difficult to find any weak spots in the current Dave).

As to the MScaler itself, it may well be that future iterations have more internal filtering enabling dual bnc to be retained. Don’t forget there is a compelling argument to retain backward compatibility and also that a low noise bnc output might ultimately be superior to optical. Innuos eschews optical on their top of the range Statement because they found by measurement that the process of converting optical back to an electrical format resulted in a signal with more noise than doing without the optical connection.


----------



## musickid

with a quality used dave is the warranty transferred or how does that work? if not do you just send it to chord for repair if needed and pay yourself?


----------



## Triode User

musickid said:


> with a quality used dave is the warranty transferred or how does that work? if not do you just send it to chord for repair if needed and pay yourself?



The Dave warranty is 5 years.

see :-

https://chordelectronics.co.uk/warranty-policy/

"Your warranty will begin from the initial date of purchase from an authorised Chord Electronics retailer and is *transferable to a new owner providing that the original purchase receipt is provided and that the product was new and was not a reconditioned, demonstration or ex-display model*, however. The warranty is only valid within the region of original purchase."


----------



## musickid

thanks for clarifying that.


----------



## lcasadonte

I apologize if this has been asked before but I can't find any references.  To use a Dave bought from the uk in the us do you just replace the power chord and maybe flip a switch?  Is this all thats required?  I was thinking of buying a used dave from the uk.  they are around 3k us and at that rate I probably wouldn't care about the warranty.  Thanks,


----------



## ufospls2

lcasadonte said:


> I apologize if this has been asked before but I can't find any references.  To use a Dave bought from the uk in the us do you just replace the power chord and maybe flip a switch?  Is this all thats required?  I was thinking of buying a used dave from the uk.  they are around 3k us and at that rate I probably wouldn't care about the warranty.  Thanks,



$3000USD? Thats pretty (ok, VERY) low price wise for a DAVE, be wary of scams if you're using www.hifishark.com, there are many.

All that is needed is the corresponding power chord for the region you live. You don't even need to flip a switch, just plug in, the DAVE automatically works with the regions voltage.


----------



## anygreg

lcasadonte said:


> they are around 3k us and at that rate I probably wouldn't care about the warranty.  Thanks,



that makes it about £2.3k GBP.... think that’s a scam buddy.


----------



## odessamarin

3k for Dave.. it's scam. Stay away.


----------



## lcasadonte

Got it thanks.


----------



## jlbrach

dont buy a dave for 3K unless it is from a friend or somebody you know and trust


----------



## simorag

Re: DAVE and crossfeed 

Yesterday I listened to my loudspeakers and clicked once too many on the crossfeed button when the loudspeaker session ended and I got back to my typical headphone usage, thus getting back to 0 instead of 3 as I wanted .

This morning I was listening to new music I haven't heard before (discovery mode in Roon) but immediately noticing something was obviously wrong, the soundstage was flat and the location of the instruments was really unnatural, borderline annoying. Listening fatigue was kicking in due to excessive directionality of the sound to my ears.

After a while I finally decided to double check the CF, and discovered it was at 0  so I sat it back to 3 et voilà, the DAVE magic was back in full spades !! Depth perception, immersive and more naturalistic presentation, a slightly smoother / darker tone are the most apparent changes to my ears.

Out of curiosity, I tried to get back to 0 again and use the CF through Roon DSP settings, with much worse results, namely a noticeable loss of transparency.

I find this feature of the DAVE (crossfeed implementation) a major asset of this machine, and it is an indispensable feature for me specifically as a headphones-first, mainly acoustics music, listener. Bravo @Rob Watts!


----------



## TheAttorney (Dec 29, 2019)

simorag said:


> Re: .... I find this feature of the DAVE (crossfeed implementation) a major asset of this machine



Agreed. to the point I can no longer listen to headphones unless CF is enabled, unless I'm listening to near-monophonic recordings.
I also tried Roon's CF and also noticed a loss of transparency.

Regarding the increasing smoothness as one increases Dave's CF, I've always felt there were 3 possible reasons for this:

1. The more natural 3D style presentation is inherently less fatiguing
2. The increasing bass boost (around 1.1, 1.5, 1.9 db from memory) can also have the relative perception of reducing higher frequencies.
3. There is some unnatural smoothing of transients, edges and fine detail (i.e. a slight loss of transparency, not unlike the HF filter)

After 2+ years of consideration, I feel that all 3 of the above are contributing to the smoothing effect. So unfortunately, I do feel that CF does introduce a slight loss of transparency, but at a much more subtle level than Roon's CF.
And this (and the bass boost) is most noticeable with CF=3, despite that having the most 3D presentation.
With some recordings and system synergies, that smoothness may well be considered beneficial, but once I hear an effect, my OCD tendencies won't allow me to un-hear it again.
So my default setting is CF=2 as the best balance of 3D presentation vs clarity.

This is with HEK SE headphones, which have a large and particularly wide soundstage as a startpoint.
And whether the slight loss of transparency is real or imagined, I still think Dave's CF is great overall.


----------



## ekfc63

I’ve had my Dave for a few weeks now and have been loving it with my Abyss 1266 TC.  I had some time today so plugged the Dave into my (separate) speaker system.  Initially I used the Dave in preamp mode.  mmmm not sure about this.  The balance was all off and it didn’t sound good.  Tried it in DAC mode.  Much better.  Balanced and smooth sound.  I guess I’m in the Dave in DAC mode camp.  One thing I did notice was how totally different my speaker system (Naim SL2 driven actively using Teddy Pardo amps with a sub) sounds compared to the Abyss.


----------



## iDesign (Dec 31, 2019)

I think the benefit of using the crossfeed on the DAVE is highly dependent on the music, headphone, and listener’s perception of sound. I don’t use the crossfeed with well recorded or newly released albums because I find most sound engineers/mixers have done an excellent job in recent years. However, with older jazz recordings and other genres I find more albums that benefit from the crossfeed (although some old albums are still unlistenable via headphones no matter the setting). I am also someone who appreciates the nuances of music and I sometimes feel using the crossfeed takes away from the listening experience when an artist or sound engineer has thoughtfully/artfully decided to adjust the mix for the left or right channel. Those nuances are lost with the crossfeed and it somewhat dulls the image. For my individual preferences I rarely use the crossfeed.


----------



## ekfc63

draytonklammer said:


> I'm getting fairly tempted to start covering mine as well.



i just ordered a custom cover from https://www.digitaldeckcovers.com/.  Very reasonable pricing.


----------



## musickid

I use a cover from them for my imac it might be a little rough for a dave depending on which type you ordered. mine was for imac computer screens. solidly put together though and high quality.


----------



## BPED

Hello, 
I recently upgraded from Hugo2 to Dave + MScaler to drive my Utopia... very nice step up bringing above all a smoother, more round and realistic presentation of the music.

I noticed that the Dave’s screen is shutting down for about a second every few minutes when I play music. I can hear no effect on the sound, just the screen going off. I checked the BCN cables, moved them of position. If I shake them I provoke noisy drop outs, not my issue, so I don’t think they are the problem.

Has anyone else experienced this? Any suggestion?
Thanks


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


----------



## Foxman50

Hi B
The screen turns off in mode 4 only. The other 3 modes it stays active. Try another mode, sorry forget how to change them.


----------



## BPED

Foxman50 said:


> Hi B
> The screen turns off in mode 4 only. The other 3 modes it stays active. Try another mode, sorry forget how to change them.



Hi Foxman50, thanks. I am aware of the screen modes, my problem is that in mode 1, 2, 3, the screen is going off for a sec and then turning on again. It happens fairly often without impact on sound as far as I can tell.
I wonder if I have a defective unit...


----------



## JaZZ

BPED said:


> I noticed that the Dave’s screen is shutting down for about a second every few minutes when I play music. I can hear no effect on the sound, just the screen going off. I checked the BCN cables, moved them of position. If I shake them I provoke noisy drop outs, not my issue, so I don’t think they are the problem.
> 
> Has anyone else experienced this? Any suggestion?


It's normal. As soon as you have made any change, let's say with the volume setting, a few seconds later the display will go off for a second. This to store the new settings, as has been explained by Rob.


----------



## miketlse

BPED said:


> Hello,
> I recently upgraded from Hugo2 to Dave + MScaler to drive my Utopia... very nice step up bringing above all a smoother, more round and realistic presentation of the music.
> 
> I noticed that the Dave’s screen is shutting down for about a second every few minutes when I play music. I can hear no effect on the sound, just the screen going off. I checked the BCN cables, moved them of position. If I shake them I provoke noisy drop outs, not my issue, so I don’t think they are the problem.
> ...


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-317#post-12861897


----------



## jlbrach

totally normal, nothing to worry about


----------



## BPED

thanks to all, I can relax now


----------



## iDesign (Jan 7, 2020)

It’s also worth pausing for a moment to appreciate Rob Watts coded the display drivers, character generation, and display interface all from the FPGA— that’s damn impressive. The display in the DAVE is as technically complex as the DAC itself.


----------



## sasaki99

IDK if anyone mentioned this before, from my experience, using DAVE+HMS upsampling to White color and then connect to Power amp with or without Preamp create "White noise". The speakers tweeters are no longer silence if you put your ears close to them like <1 foot. This only happen when upsampling to the White color. I tried this with several hiend power amp like Octave RE320, AVM SA8.2, and Constellation 1.0. The Octabe and AVM have lowest white noise from tweeter. But for the Constellation I can hear the white noise like 4-5 feet away from the tweeter.

IDK if this affect the playback. I could only hear the noise when not playing music.

Anyway, DAVE+HMS sound great but they are not the best.


----------



## Thenewguy007

sasaki99 said:


> Anyway, DAVE+HMS sound great but they are not the best.



What have you heard that's better.


----------



## rkt31

sasaki99 said:


> IDK if anyone mentioned this before, from my experience, using DAVE+HMS upsampling to White color and then connect to Power amp with or without Preamp create "White noise". The speakers tweeters are no longer silence if you put your ears close to them like <1 foot. This only happen when upsampling to the White color. I tried this with several hiend power amp like Octave RE320, AVM SA8.2, and Constellation 1.0. The Octabe and AVM have lowest white noise from tweeter. But for the Constellation I can hear the white noise like 4-5 feet away from the tweeter.
> 
> IDK if this affect the playback. I could only hear the noise when not playing music.
> 
> Anyway, DAVE+HMS sound great but they are not the best.


Full upscaling better be used with green filter. Try green filter with dave. I use tt2 and HMS with benchmark ahb2 power amp without any hiss in tweeter whatsoever.


----------



## sasaki99

Thenewguy007 said:


> What have you heard that's better.



I am saying this in cost no object perspective.

My answer is MSB Select II. 

I cannot afford the MSB but i brought my Dave+HMS to the local dealer store just to compare. The MSB sound in my opinion is "tangible" in the sense of real. I dont say the dac has more mid range. The tonal balance is perfect. Every sound spectrum produced by the DAC is just so real to me.

However, I did not audition the MSB with my system. It may indicates that the system synergy at the store is just at its finest with the MSB.


----------



## rkt31

Dac manufacturers which do not reveal much about their digital algorithm and filtering and mainly hark about state of the art components etc can best be left to measurements. Total dac was a big casualty in asr forum. Before that it was also very popular like very 'analog like' etc etc. So until unless these so called boutique dacs like msb select, nagra dacx,playback design,audionote etc are measured, it is best not to compare with tt2/dave+ HMS which have already been measured.


----------



## sasaki99

rkt31 said:


> Dac manufacturers which do not reveal much about their digital algorithm and filtering and mainly hark about state of the art components etc can best be left to measurements. Total dac was a big casualty in asr forum. Before that it was also very popular like very 'analog like' etc etc. So until unless these so called boutique dacs like msb select, nagra dacx,playback design,audionote etc are measured, it is best not to compare with tt2/dave+ HMS which have already been measured.



I saw a nice quote somewhere it was like "Every sounds can be measured but not every measurement can sound, trust your ears" which is true for me. 

When mixing spec and price into a component people might lose connection to music. We may start thinking that this equipment is so overprice/outdated spec/technology while listening which alters the emotion that the record may offer at the time. Be open mind, and listen to what they can offer to our ears is the best measurement for sound (in this hobby) known to mankind.

BTW I'm still using Dave+HMS. It's a good value for money (at least for me).

Cheers


----------



## Ciggavelli

Wait, an $85K dac sounds better than the $15K Dave/HMS combo?  Who woulda thought?


----------



## rkt31

sasaki99 said:


> I saw a nice quote somewhere it was like "Every sounds can be measured but not every measurement can sound, trust your ears" which is true for me.
> 
> When mixing spec and price into a component people might lose connection to music. We may start thinking that this equipment is so overprice/outdated spec/technology while listening which alters the emotion that the record may offer at the time. Be open mind, and listen to what they can offer to our ears is the best measurement for sound (in this hobby) known to mankind.
> 
> ...


Exactly that's what I wanted to say everything can't be measured. Like the effect of long taps in chord dacs. After a certain limit it's not measurable. But some things can be measured easily and can have profound effect on music. One is the effective bits of resolution the dac can provide. For some music it will not matter but for orchestral music it will matter.


----------



## BPED

Hi, 
I am getting used to my new Dave MSC and I will post some impressions soon 

I seem to have read somewhere the max volume for Dave is around + 7. Is that right? What happens if (theoretically) I go beyond that?
thanks


----------



## ecwl

BPED said:


> Hi,
> I am getting used to my new Dave MSC and I will post some impressions soon
> 
> I seem to have read somewhere the max volume for Dave is around + 7. Is that right? What happens if (theoretically) I go beyond that?
> thanks


If your music material never clipped previously, and is recorded at a low volume level, going beyond +7 would do nothing because it might still not clip at +8 or higher. If your musical material already clips or sometimes reaches maximum digital recording range, then going above +7 would clip digitally. 

this is assuming you’re playing bit perfect from your source to the M-Scaler. Obviously if your player is digitally lowering the volume before sending the signal to M-Scaler, it’ll take way more than +7 to clip. But of course, you should always play bit perfect if possible into M-Scaler and DAVE because any computer digital manipulation of the source would worsen the DAVE M-Scaler sonic performance.


----------



## HeeBroG (Jan 12, 2020)

Rob Watts said:


> It's both recording and volume dependent. A BluDave can't voltage clip with volume set to +6dB - even with material that hits the max of 0dBFS. But it could current limit into 8 ohms, as this allows a max of 4.1V RMS into 8 (2.1W). It can't current limit at +3dB, so your danger zone is +5dB on the volume. But I suspect your problem is the recordings just don't hit max level of 0dBFS - if it sounds as loud as regular recordings set to -4dB then don't worry!



@BPED
I asked a similar question some time ago and here is RW response.

Here's a link to the post 
     Post #884

G


----------



## BPED

ecwl said:


> If your music material never clipped previously, and is recorded at a low volume level, going beyond +7 would do nothing because it might still not clip at +8 or higher. If your musical material already clips or sometimes reaches maximum digital recording range, then going above +7 would clip digitally.
> 
> this is assuming you’re playing bit perfect from your source to the M-Scaler. Obviously if your player is digitally lowering the volume before sending the signal to M-Scaler, it’ll take way more than +7 to clip. But of course, you should always play bit perfect if possible into M-Scaler and DAVE because any computer digital manipulation of the source would worsen the DAVE M-Scaler sonic performance.



thanks. Yes I am playing music bit perfect via Qobuz/Roon. My question was related to low volume recordings of classic music, in case I decide to use the Dave to power “difficult headphones”.


----------



## BPED

HeeBroG said:


> @BPED
> I asked a similar question some time ago and here is RW response.
> 
> Here's a link to the post
> ...



useful, thank you. It’s a treat to have such an helpful community and Rob himself to answer our questions!


----------



## BPED

Slightly OT but since there are quite a few of us here driving tour speakers with Dave..I'll ask anyway 

I am bit struggling to find the best position for my speakers. Due to the fact that one is close to a side wall I have the suspect that the sound image is slightly shifted to that side.

I am trying to find a couple of good tracks so that I can listen to instruments' placement on my headphones and then move around speakers until I find the same bass tone, imaging (difficult!) and position of instruments.

Which tracks do you use to test left right balance, width and depth of stage?


----------



## 154931

Love mine! The best DAC I’ve had. Especially for the price I paid nothing beats it


----------



## PhenixS1970

Just wondering if any of you also found it difficult to find a power cord which gives a firm lock?  Looking at the freebee cable thrown in with Dave the iec plug  pins openings are a bit smaller then any other I tried.  So these fit well.  I have some cords terminated with Wattgate 320i and I had to use the ‘adapter’ the dealer threw in to get a firm fit.  It’s a small plastic tube which slides into the plug.  Same thing with my Etude btw.


----------



## Thenewguy007

PhenixS1970 said:


> Just wondering if any of you also found it difficult to find a power cord which gives a firm lock?  Looking at the freebee cable thrown in with Dave the iec plug  pins openings are a bit smaller then any other I tried.  So these fit well.  I have some cords terminated with Wattgate 320i and I had to use the ‘adapter’ the dealer threw in to get a firm fit.  It’s a small plastic tube which slides into the plug.  Same thing with my Etude btw.



Any pictures of the adapter or a name of the company that makes it?


----------



## PhenixS1970

Thenewguy007 said:


> Any pictures of the adapter or a name of the company that makes it?



Attached little card that came with it.  Manufactured by Wattgate.


----------



## HeeBroG

I believe this will clarify the situation.


----------



## ubs28

BPED said:


> Slightly OT but since there are quite a few of us here driving tour speakers with Dave..I'll ask anyway
> 
> I am bit struggling to find the best position for my speakers. Due to the fact that one is close to a side wall I have the suspect that the sound image is slightly shifted to that side.
> 
> ...



That is also what I did to calibrate the bass levels correctly. Used the Focal Utopia headphones, HD 800 S and HD 650 to detect bass problems and fix it.

For soundstage and imaging, I use live jazz music and see if it sounds like a real live jazz band playing in the room right in front of me.


----------



## shaluka

micho said:


> Love mine! The best DAC I’ve had. Especially for the price I paid nothing beats it



What did you compare it to ?


----------



## shaluka

Is it worth getting a separate power supply ? 
Has anyone done this ? If so was there a noticeable difference ?


----------



## 154931

shaluka said:


> What did you compare it to ?



Hugo TT2. Both great but definitely TT2 is a better value in general. I just happened to get a great price on the Dave.


----------



## Triode User

shaluka said:


> Is it worth getting a separate power supply ?
> Has anyone done this ? If so was there a noticeable difference ?


I will message you.


----------



## anygreg

micho said:


> Hugo TT2. Both great but definitely TT2 is a better value in general. I just happened to get a great price on the Dave.



where are you based? Also did you buy new or used. Can you give us a clue on the ‘great price’ intrigued.


----------



## 154931

anygreg said:


> where are you based? Also did you buy new or used. Can you give us a clue on the ‘great price’ intrigued.



I am in US.


----------



## shaluka

micho said:


> Hugo TT2. Both great but definitely TT2 is a better value in general. I just happened to get a great price on the Dave.



Thanks 
 I only head the Dave while back and thought it was like some sort of magic   .  Purchased one recently. Just waiting for it to arrive
Haven't heard the MScaler yet.


----------



## Triode User

shaluka said:


> Thanks
> I only head the Dave while back and thought it was like some sort of magic   .  Purchased one recently. Just waiting for it to arrive
> Haven't heard the MScaler yet.



You will like the Dave. TT2 is good (very good) but there is nothing to touch Dave (IMO of course!).


----------



## shaluka

Triode User said:


> You will like the Dave. TT2 is good (very good) but there is nothing to touch Dave (IMO of course!).



Hopefully I will thanks


----------



## shaluka

Got a question
Any recommendation for a good Integrated Amp to go with Chord Dave.
My setup : 
Speakers - Audio Note : AZ
Source : bluesound node 2i 
DAC : Dave (should arrive soon. Im currently using a Qutest)


----------



## jarnopp

shaluka said:


> Got a question
> Any recommendation for a good Integrated Amp to go with Chord Dave.
> My setup :
> Speakers - Audio Note : AZ
> ...



Which AZ?  They both seem pretty efficient, you might even be able to have Dave drive the, directly depending on listening level and room size. You also could use Dave as a preamp and so any amplifier should work, not just an integrated, unless you also need to attach other components.


----------



## shaluka

It's the "AZ Two Hemp". 
I currently have a Primaluna Integrated, but it doesn't have a pre-out.  I just wanted to find out if someone had tried different amps and found some matching combinations. 
I know there are lot of elements to it rather than just the DAC and the amp. Still it would be interesting to know what their experience.


----------



## Triode User

shaluka said:


> It's the "AZ Two Hemp".
> I currently have a Primaluna Integrated, but it doesn't have a pre-out.  I just wanted to find out if someone had tried different amps and found some matching combinations.
> I know there are lot of elements to it rather than just the DAC and the amp. Still it would be interesting to know what their experience.



Depending on where you are the best policy is to borrow a few amps from a local dealer. I tried quite a few but in the end I settled on a Pass Labs power amp fed directly by Dave and using Dave as the volume control.


----------



## shaluka

Thanks for the input.  That's a good idea. I'll try and do that. Did you not prefer a tube amp? I prefer the sound of tube amps personally.


----------



## ekfc63

I've been streaming Tidal on iPad / iPhone to MScaler/Dave via USB cable very happily for a few months now and am now wondering what the benefits of a music server such as a CAT CAD, Aurender, Auralic, etc would be purely for sound quality.  I don't have any music stored on hard drives so don't need functionality for accessing those files.  Are there sound quality benefits over a tablet/phone?


----------



## shaluka

ekfc63 said:


> I've been streaming Tidal on iPad / iPhone to MScaler/Dave via USB cable very happily for a few months now and am now wondering what the benefits of a music server such as a CAT CAD, Aurender, Auralic, etc would be purely for sound quality.  I don't have any music stored on hard drives so don't need functionality for accessing those files.  Are there sound quality benefits over a tablet/phone?



Good question. I recently asks the same question from a local audio retailer. He suggested it's better spend the money on a better Speaker/Amp/DAC .. Saying that im using a bluesound node 2i which is fairly decent.


----------



## Ratephi

anygreg said:


> where are you based? Also did you buy new or used. Can you give us a clue on the ‘great price’ intrigued.




+1 at least the difference in percentage...


----------



## Thenewguy007

shaluka said:


> Is it worth getting a separate power supply ?
> Has anyone done this ? If so was there a noticeable difference ?



You need a power supply with 3 rails. Getting a quality one will set you back _at least_ $3k.


----------



## nishan99

Is their website hacked!? 

It refers me to a weird survey every time I enter.


----------



## iDesign (Jan 21, 2020)

nishan99 said:


> Is their website hacked!?
> 
> It refers me to a weird survey every time I enter.


Yes, Chord's website has been down for sometime.


----------



## STR-1

iDesign said:


> Yes, Chord's website has been down for sometime.


Do you think maybe trying to upload a 2Go launch announcement broke it?


----------



## iDesign (Jan 21, 2020)

STR-1 said:


> Do you think maybe trying to upload a 2Go launch announcement broke it?


The site is back up. And I would hope that isn’t foreshadowing a rough start for the 2Go like the Poly.


----------



## Ciggavelli

I just upgraded my TT2 to a DAVE, but I'm having big problems.  I hook both BNC inputs up from the M-Scaler to the DAVE and the sound keeps cutting in and out.  When this happens the screen on the DAVE flickers and goes on and off, and I just hear the music cutting in and out. 

Does anybody know why I'm experiencing this issue?  If so, how do I fix it?


----------



## iDesign

Ciggavelli said:


> I just upgraded my TT2 to a DAVE, but I'm having big problems.  I hook both BNC inputs up from the M-Scaler to the DAVE and the sound keeps cutting in and out.  When this happens the screen on the DAVE flickers and goes on and off, and I just hear the music cutting in and out.
> 
> Does anybody know why I'm experiencing this issue?  If so, how do I fix it?


Try BNC three and four on the DAVE.


----------



## Ciggavelli

iDesign said:


> Try BNC three and four on the DAVE.


It happens on 1 and 2 and on 3 and 4.  It's cutting in and out and makes a static noise sometimes.  It sounds like a pop and crackle from a vinyl record.  The TT2 worked just fine with the M-Scaler.  I guess I'll keep trying.  Thanks for the help


----------



## Ciggavelli

I tried switching out my BNC cables with the stock ones, and the same problem is occurring.  Going straight usb from my computer to DAVE works fine.  It appears to be some problem with the BNC cables or M-scaler and the DAVE I think.  I hope I don't have a dud DAVE


----------



## ray-dude (Jan 22, 2020)

Try one BNC cable at a time on HMS, and cycle through 1-4 on DAVE one input at a time. Try with both BNC cables. That will help isolate cable issues (connectors, etc) and which DAVE inputs may be more stable.

if each cable and output and input works great, try swapping 1-2 (or 3-4) on DAVE to see if that helps get a stable sync (DAVE syncs DX differently than TT2)

if you have an intermittent connection, you will hear something similar to what you’re describing (not saying that’s the issue, but that it may be helpful to isolate your testing to see if it is)


----------



## Triode User (Jan 22, 2020)

Ciggavelli said:


> I just upgraded my TT2 to a DAVE, but I'm having big problems.  I hook both BNC inputs up from the M-Scaler to the DAVE and the sound keeps cutting in and out.  When this happens the screen on the DAVE flickers and goes on and off, and I just hear the music cutting in and out.
> 
> Does anybody know why I'm experiencing this issue?  If so, how do I fix it?



Have you tried different BNC cables to see if that is any better? Or a long shot, do you have any other equipment nearby apart from the Mscaler?

edit. I see you have tried swopping cables.


----------



## Ciggavelli

ray-dude said:


> Try one BNC cable at a time on HMS, and cycle through 1-4 on DAVE one input at a time. Try with both BNC cables. That will help isolate cable issues (connectors, etc) and which DAVE inputs may be more stable.
> 
> if each cable and output and input works great, try swapping 1-2 (or 3-4) on DAVE to see if that helps get a stable sync (DAVE syncs DX differently than TT2)
> 
> if you have an intermittent connection, you will hear something similar to what you’re describing (not saying that’s the issue, but that it may be helpful to isolate your testing to see if it is)


It's even worse with just one BNC cable.  It just cuts in and out and in and out


----------



## Ciggavelli

Triode User said:


> Have you tried different BNC cables to see if that is any better? Or a long shot, do you have any other equipment nearby apart from the Mscaler?


I tried the stock BNC cables and had the same problem as using the SOtM BNC cables.

I've actually separated my setup more than when I had the TT2 (I had the TT2 on top of the M-scaler before).  So, it goes M-scaler right next to DAVE which is right next to my WA33 amp.  

If I bypass the m-scaler and go usb into the DAVE, no problems.  When I add the M-Scaler and BNC cables, it just cuts in and out


----------



## Ciggavelli

I'm going to bed.  I'm gonna stay up all night debugging if I'm not careful...hahaha.

I guess I'll try again tomorrow.  Thanks for everybody's help


----------



## Triode User

Ciggavelli said:


> It's even worse with just one BNC cable.  It just cuts in and out and in and out



I see your Dave is right next to your amp. Have you tried moving it away from the amp or move the amp? It shouldn’t make any difference but is worth a try. 

Is your Dave new from a dealer? If so and if you can’t quickly resolve it then maybe ask if you can borrow their demo unit to see if that works fine in your system. Rarely the odd new Dave has been known to have similar issues (but not normally as bad) and was solved when sent back for adjustment.


----------



## dmance

Ciggavelli said:


> I'm going to bed.  I'm gonna stay up all night debugging if I'm not careful...hahaha.
> I guess I'll try again tomorrow.  Thanks for everybody's help


Go to your dealer. As has been mentioned on this forum and other communications i've read, some newer Dave units are problematic (a component change, i think). Definitely, with factory (or non exotic) coax cables, this should not happen.


----------



## Ciggavelli

dmance said:


> Go to your dealer. As has been mentioned on this forum and other communications i've read, some newer Dave units are problematic (a component change, i think). Definitely, with factory (or non exotic) coax cables, this should not happen.


Thanks, I’m going to contact my dealer. Hopefully I can get a working DAVE


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jan 22, 2020)

Well, at least the USB option still works on the DAVE.  I very much do miss the M-scaler though.  Everything sounds so much more digital that I was used to when using the M-Scaler with the TT2.  However, I see the benefits of switching to a DAVE.  The resolution is much higher than the TT2.  These textures I'm hearing on the bass are amazing.

Once the BNC issue gets fixed (with a new DAVE or whatever), I can't wait to hear what an M-scaled DAVE sounds like...


----------



## Triode User

Ciggavelli said:


> However, I see the benefits of switching to a DAVE. The resolution is much higher than the TT2. These textures I'm hearing on the bass are amazing.



Yes, exactly. I just love the bass detail with the Dave compared to TT2.


----------



## Drewligarchy

I have a bunch of external amps and I keep coming back to the Dave / M Scaler headphone out for Abyss. I have the Benchmark HPA4 on trial, and while it's the closest amp I've heard so far to the Dave output - the HPA4 has a hint of dryness to the midrange, whereas Dave is completely smooth.

I don't sense any lack of power or straining with the Abyss at any volume. Though with some dynamic recordings you just don't have quite the volume you need (I'm always super nervous to go past +3db and that I'll clip).

Rob - any news on the digital amps? There  has got to be a way to maintain this quality while retaining the smoothness. I'm up for suggestions on headphone or speaker amps that I haven't tried that - while may not be 100% transparent - will not lose that smooth, analog feel.

I wish I could rig a TT2 to be a headphone amplifier for the Dave.


----------



## jlbrach

try the formula s/ powerman combo that was made to work with the abyss TC...outstanding combo, while nothing is as transparent as straight out of the dave it is damn good


----------



## Drewligarchy

jlbrach said:


> try the formula s/ powerman combo that was made to work with the abyss TC...outstanding combo, while nothing is as transparent as straight out of the dave it is damn good



Yup - I've had it for quite some time and I do like it. That said, I wouldn't even describe my issue as transparency with Dave (though it's certainly there) - but smoothness, which I find is unmatched.


----------



## Triode User

Drewligarchy said:


> . I'm up for suggestions on headphone or speaker amps that I haven't tried that - while may not be 100% transparent - will not lose that smooth, analog feel.



Try a Pass Labs power amp connected direct to Dave for speakers. For me they retain all of Dave’s qualities but with a huge amount of extra grunt. I originally had the XA30.8 which in truth was powerful enough but in a moment of wild madness I upgraded to the XA60.8 monos.


----------



## rkt31

Triode User said:


> Try a Pass Labs power amp connected direct to Dave for speakers. For me they retain all of Dave’s qualities but with a huge amount of extra grunt. I originally had the XA30.8 which in truth was powerful enough but in a moment of wild madness I upgraded to the XA60.8 monos.


Benchmark ahb2 is a better choice if you want to feed dave directly into a power amp as if has far less distortion than any other power amp plus it has variable gain to adjust for normal listening levels which is the greatest feature of this amp. Low gain is more than enough for normal day to day listening levels which allows dave to operate in its higher operatinh range.


----------



## Rob Watts

Drewligarchy said:


> I have a bunch of external amps and I keep coming back to the Dave / M Scaler headphone out for Abyss. I have the Benchmark HPA4 on trial, and while it's the closest amp I've heard so far to the Dave output - the HPA4 has a hint of dryness to the midrange, whereas Dave is completely smooth.
> 
> I don't sense any lack of power or straining with the Abyss at any volume. Though with some dynamic recordings you just don't have quite the volume you need (I'm always super nervous to go past +3db and that I'll clip).
> 
> ...



You can run M scaler/Dave at +9dB and with loads above 16 ohms it's impossible to clip...

No news on the amps, been hyper busy on other projects.


----------



## Triode User

rkt31 said:


> Benchmark ahb2 is a better choice if you want to feed dave directly into a power amp as if has far less distortion than any other power amp plus it has variable gain to adjust for normal listening levels which is the greatest feature of this amp. Low gain is more than enough for normal day to day listening levels which allows dave to operate in its higher operatinh range.



I admit that I have not heard the Benchmark ahb2 and so cannot offer any comparison with the Pass Labs XA30.8 or XA60.8. However I have found that technical spec is not the final indicator of how well an amp sounds and I have rejected a few with seemingly flawless specs but which did not sound as good as the Pass Labs. Have you compared the amps I mention to the Benchmark ahb2?

On the matter of wanting to run Dave in its higher operating range (volume) I suspect Rob Watts might have something to say about whether Daves volume attenuation has any audible effect on sound quality.


----------



## HeeBroG

Rob Watts said:


> You can run M scaler/Dave at +9dB and with loads above 16 ohms it's impossible to clip...
> 
> No news on the amps, been hyper busy on other projects.



Hi Rob,

Is that the same for DAVE/Blu2?

G


----------



## Triode User

HeeBroG said:


> Hi Rob,
> 
> Is that the same for DAVE/Blu2?
> 
> G



In case Rob doesn't see the question, yes it is the figures are the same for Blu2 Dave and Mscaler Dave.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I don’t know if any others here have tested their electrics for DC Offset. It’s a form of electrical ‘double vision’ or blur. It affects the imaging and density of your images. As far as I can ascertain in the UK this is a very common problem.


Anyway, I identified this in my own electricity supply about 5yrs ago when I tried an Isotek Evo3 Syncro cable (Isotek have since included this in many other similar products) which cancels this harmful DC problem by rebalancing the mains sine wave. Maybe other manufacturers have similar products too, I don’t know.


Well yesterday I thought I would test the Dave’s ability to cope with this problem without assistance and I must say the result was not good. Even with DC Offset cancelling still working on my power amp when Dave isn’t directly assisted too the SQ is greatly compromised with this electrical phenomenon affecting its general focus, density/weight of images, staging, bass clarity and density, tone/timbre of instruments, layering of soundstage, pretty much the whole gambit really. I was shocked to hear the difference.


I just thought I would highlight this electrical phenomena in case others may have the same problem in their electrics.


----------



## jonstatt

Drewligarchy said:


> I have a bunch of external amps and I keep coming back to the Dave / M Scaler headphone out for Abyss. I have the Benchmark HPA4 on trial, and while it's the closest amp I've heard so far to the Dave output - the HPA4 has a hint of dryness to the midrange, whereas Dave is completely smooth.
> 
> I don't sense any lack of power or straining with the Abyss at any volume. Though with some dynamic recordings you just don't have quite the volume you need (I'm always super nervous to go past +3db and that I'll clip).
> 
> ...



The HPA4 is as transparent as it gets, as you say. I don't see an alternative for the Abyss right now. You should find the soundstage opens up a bit compared to DAVE directly too. So it's better here and slightly not there. Overall it's still better.


----------



## Drewligarchy (Jan 24, 2020)

Rob Watts said:


> You can run M scaler/Dave at +9dB and with loads above 16 ohms it's impossible to clip...
> 
> No news on the amps, been hyper busy on other projects.



Thank you, Rob! I know the DX amps are a ways always.

I am most concerned with the Abyss specifically, which is a 47 ohm load and 88db sensitivity. What kind of headroom can I safely experience my with in that case?

Edit: Re-read your post, Rob.  Looks like it won't clip based on parameters you've described.


----------



## Drewligarchy

jonstatt said:


> The HPA4 is as transparent as it gets, as you say. I don't see an alternative for the Abyss right now. You should find the soundstage opens up a bit compared to DAVE directly too. So it's better here and slightly not there. Overall it's still better.



I respectfully disagree. You lose that last bit of “you are there”. 

for instance if I am dozing off listening and wake up without remembering I am listening to headphone the difference is:

HPA4: That’s a pristine recording
Dave direct: Who the F$&@ is in my house? 

I actually have a brief moment of fear that an intruder has made his way in in the middle of the night.


----------



## jonstatt

Drewligarchy said:


> I respectfully disagree. You lose that last bit of “you are there”.
> 
> for instance if I am dozing off listening and wake up without remembering I am listening to headphone the difference is:
> 
> ...



So you prefer DAVE directly with Abyss over the HPA4? There have been many conversations here about the more demanding headphones like the LCD4, Susvara , Abyss etc. To me the DAVE directly sounds more intimate at first listen but then I notice the low end is thicker and lacking some texture. This interferes with my impression of soundstage. From a maths perspective DAVE should have enough oomph to drive the LCD4 but many find the impression of it being held back. Also with any amp ,even the THX 888. there is a risk of RF induced noise getting into play such as with the cables, which can give the impression of a thinner more clinical , possibly sibilant , dry and distant sound. Im not suggesting a stupid price interconnect though.


----------



## Drewligarchy

jonstatt said:


> So you prefer DAVE directly with Abyss over the HPA4? There have been many conversations here about the more demanding headphones like the LCD4, Susvara , Abyss etc. To me the DAVE directly sounds more intimate at first listen but then I notice the low end is thicker and lacking some texture. This interferes with my impression of soundstage. From a maths perspective DAVE should have enough oomph to drive the LCD4 but many find the impression of it being held back. Also with any amp ,even the THX 888. there is a risk of RF induced noise getting into play such as with the cables, which can give the impression of a thinner more clinical , possibly sibilant , dry and distant sound. Im not suggesting a stupid price interconnect though.



Yes. On all types of music where there is enough volume. 

Really the only difference between HPA4 and Dave to me is volume (and the lesser dynamics that result from having less volume, no compression), and a slight grain in the midrange. I've been comparing them back and forth for 2 weeks. Your right - cables could help. I've found going single ended also helps, despite the design of the HPA4. I don't have any really expensive interconnects - some Nordost Purple Flares, Audioquest King Cobras, and vanilla Mogami.

I could imagine on the AHB2 with speakers, its maybe not perceivable. But with headphones - and I think the Abyss TC are incredibly resolving (and more so than a lot give them credit for, it's immediate apparent. Completely cliche but a veil which is enough to take you out of it.


----------



## Muataz

jonstatt said:


> So you prefer DAVE directly with Abyss over the HPA4? There have been many conversations here about the more demanding headphones like the LCD4, Susvara , Abyss etc. To me the DAVE directly sounds more intimate at first listen but then I notice the low end is thicker and lacking some texture. This interferes with my impression of soundstage. From a maths perspective DAVE should have enough oomph to drive the LCD4 but many find the impression of it being held back. Also with any amp ,even the THX 888. there is a risk of RF induced noise getting into play such as with the cables, which can give the impression of a thinner more clinical , possibly sibilant , dry and distant sound. Im not suggesting a stupid price interconnect though.



There are many option better transparency and simpler in design and way cheaper.
Archel 2.5 Pro and Schitt magni hersey.


----------



## ekfc63

Drewligarchy said:


> I respectfully disagree. You lose that last bit of “you are there”.
> 
> for instance if I am dozing off listening and wake up without remembering I am listening to headphone the difference is:
> 
> ...




Ditto.  Heres hoping Rob's digital amps aren't too far away.


----------



## jonstatt

ekfc63 said:


> Ditto.  Heres hoping Rob's digital amps aren't too far away.



@MacedonianHero Do you have a view on this, DAVE direct to Abyss vs HPA4? What interconnects do you use?


----------



## HeeBroG

Triode User said:


> In case Rob doesn't see the question, yes it is the figures are the same for Blu2 Dave and Mscaler Dave.



Thanks Nick.

Would you happen to know if the headphone output specs published below are the same when using XLR/RCA outputs to drive high efficiency speakers?

_Headphone Output:

1% THD 6.8v RMS with 300Ω (154mW)

1% THD 6.8v RMS with 33Ω (1.4w)
_
Cheers,

Geoff


----------



## Triode User

HeeBroG said:


> Thanks Nick.
> 
> Would you happen to know if the headphone output specs published below are the same when using XLR/RCA outputs to drive high efficiency speakers?
> 
> ...



Hi Geoff, I never use headphones so I’m afraid that any figures relating to them are always skipped by me and so I cannot help on that. Sorry.


----------



## HeeBroG

I rarely use headphones nowadays either but have you seen any published distortion figures for the XLR/RCA outputs when driving high efficiency speakers?

Maybe @robwatts can chime in.

G


----------



## CreditingKarma

Doing a shoot out between the Dave mscaler, dCS Bartok, and fully upgraded MSB premire dac. Using the formula s and traformatic primavera. Headphones Abyss TC, susvara, lcd 4, he1000, and d8000.

Not a bad way to spend the afternoon. 





 

Any predictions on the outcome??????


----------



## audio_1 (Jan 25, 2020)

CreditingKarma said:


> Doing a shoot out between the Dave mscaler, dCS Bartok, and fully upgraded MSB premire dac. Using the formula s and traformatic primavera. Headphones Abyss TC, susvara, lcd 4, he1000, and d8000.
> 
> Not a bad way to spend the afternoon.
> 
> ...


The Dave & mScaler will easily win. Just listen for timing, dynamics and musicality. If the Dave sounds brighter, there is something wrong with your setup. Separate the Dave and mScaler a bit. They shouldn't be stacked on the carpet. The Bartok will sound flat and lack dynamics. The MSB polite and smooth. All imho and experience.


----------



## CreditingKarma (Feb 24, 2020)

audio_1 said:


> The Dave & mScaler will easily win. Just listen for timing, dynamics and musicality. If the Dave sounds brighter, there is something wrong with your setup. Separate the Dave and mScaler a bit. They shouldn't be stacked on the carpet. The Bartok will sound flat and lack dynamics. The MSB polite and smooth. All imho and experience.


The Dave is not on the floor for testing. We were just setting up. So far I would say that the chord is more analytical. The dCS is somewhere in between the dave and msb. Both the msb and dcs sounded more full and natural. The Dave is incredible sounding and I think it is down to preference.

I think that with speakers the bartok and msb pull ahead of the Dave in terms of fullness and bass presentation more than on headphones. We did speaker listening with my pair of Magico S1MKII.

PS I am completely jealous of you M6. They are incredible speakers.


----------



## Thenewguy007

CreditingKarma said:


> The Dave is not on the floor for testing. We were just setting up. So far I would say that the chord is more analytical. The dCS is somewhere in between the dave and msb. Both the msb and dcs sounded more full and natural. The Dave is incredible sounding and I think it is down to preference.
> 
> I think that with speakers the bartok and msb pull ahead of the Dave in therms of fullness and bass presentation more than on headphones. We did speaker listening with my pair of Magico S1MKII.



Did you hear anything that the Dave did significantly better than the other two DACs?
Did you try seeing how the Dave fares without the MScaler against them?


----------



## audio_1

CreditingKarma said:


> The Dave is not on the floor for testing. We were just setting up. So far I would say that the chord is more analytical. The dCS is somewhere in between the dave and msb. Both the msb and dcs sounded more full and natural. The Dave is incredible sounding and I think it is down to preference.
> 
> I think that with speakers the bartok and msb pull ahead of the Dave in therms of fullness and bass presentation more than on headphones. We did speaker listening with my pair of Magico S1MKII.
> 
> PS I am completely jealous of you M6. They are incredible speakers.


Thanks. I have never heard bass with as much resolution and texture as with the Dave, Blu2 and M6. If anything, my system is too refined. Dave with the mScaler or Blu2 have very full resolved bass if the RF issue is resolved with ferrites, Wave cables or the Opto-DX.


----------



## ray-dude

audio_1 said:


> Thanks. I have never heard bass with as much resolution and texture as with the Dave, Blu2 and M6. If anything, my system is too refined. Dave with the mScaler or Blu2 have very full resolved bass if the RF issue is resolved with ferrites, Wave cables or the Opto-DX.



The EtherRegen has a shockingly impactful SQ on bass resolution and speed, even through an optimized NUC and SoTM TX-Ultra with optical isolation.  I'm running Voxativ 9.87's with the ultra fast and resolving Pi bass units, but with EtherRegen in the chain, I'm hearing bass detail (and indirectly, physical presence of the recording space) far more than I've heard before.  Stunning with binaural recordings (Chesky, etc)


----------



## HeeBroG

ray-dude said:


> The EtherRegen has a shockingly impactful SQ on bass resolution and speed, even through an optimized NUC and SoTM TX-Ultra with optical isolation.  I'm running Voxativ 9.87's with the ultra fast and resolving Pi bass units, but with EtherRegen in the chain, I'm hearing bass detail (and indirectly, physical presence of the recording space) far more than I've heard before.  Stunning with binaural recordings (Chesky, etc)



Hi Ray,

Does that apply to streaming/NAS or locally attached media playback?

Geoff


----------



## ray-dude

HeeBroG said:


> Hi Ray,
> 
> Does that apply to streaming/NAS or locally attached media playback?
> 
> Geoff



Geoff, I stream from TIDAL and I have a MacMini fileserver woth all my music files, so both go through the EtherRegen to my NUC.


----------



## CreditingKarma

Thenewguy007 said:


> Did you hear anything that the Dave did significantly better than the other two DACs?
> Did you try seeing how the Dave fares without the MScaler against them?



The Dave while having a smaller soundstage did produce imaging where the instruments were separated from each other more than the other dacs. The stage from the Dave did not seem as deep or wide as the MSB or dCS though. 

The surprise was that we seemed to prefer the Dave without the mscaler when listening to speakers. With headphones we preferred the Dave when used with the mscaler. All said I think my friend is going to be selling his Dave and mscaler and keeping the MSB. I will be keeping the Bartok and am very happy with it. Plus I can't afford the MSB right now. I think as it was spec'd it was around $35k.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I think Dave/M Scaler will show their superiority in any test provided the test system has its power and RFI rejection sorted properly including DC Offset. I fully believe Rob’s design-work leads the pack. It has an exactness which returns pristinely accurate instrument timbres. This is so hard to accomplish but can be fudged with with a little extra warmth imo.


----------



## Triode User

CreditingKarma said:


> The Dave while having a smaller soundstage did produce imaging where the instruments were separated from each other more than the other dacs. The stage from the Dave did not seem as deep or wide as the MSB or dCS though.
> 
> The surprise was that we seemed to prefer the Dave without the mscaler when listening to speakers. With headphones we preferred the Dave when used with the mscaler. All said I think my friend is going to be selling his Dave and mscaler and keeping the MSB. I will be keeping the Bartok and am very happy with it. Plus I can't afford the MSB right now. I think as it was spec'd it was around $35k.



For me the Dave plus Mscaler (or at least Blu2 which I have in my main system) does what no other dac can do that I have heard and that is to maintain the ability to pick out every single instrument in an orchestra during the crescendo passages such as Mars from Holst’s Planet Suite. All others I have heard dissolve into just a ‘wall of sound’.


----------



## ZappaMan

I thought rob asked him not to do a review/comparison, but we were always going to get it.

everyone with a Dave, probably best to sell it and get a bartock.


----------



## CreditingKarma

ZappaMan said:


> I thought rob asked him not to do a review/comparison, but we were always going to get it.
> 
> everyone with a Dave, probably best to sell it and get a bartock.


 

It is a good.thing that I don't really report or answer to Rob.

I also posted stating that we were doing a  3 way shootout of the dacs. Some one asked a question that I answered. I really enjoy trying different gear and seeing how it will sound as does my friend. I thought that there might be a few people that owned the Dave and would be interested in a few other dacs.

 I would be more than happy with a Dave it is an incredible product. There really isn't much that is bad in this price range. It is for me more of a preference and system synergy. There are no absolutes in this hobby.

Ps everybody should sell everything and just get the MSB select or Vivaldi stack


----------



## ZappaMan

CreditingKarma said:


> It is a good.thing that I don't really report or answer to Rob.
> 
> I also posted stating that we were doing a  3 way shootout of the dacs. Some one asked a question that I answered. I really enjoy trying different gear and seeing how it will sound as does my friend. I thought that there might be a few people that owned the Dave and would be interested in a few other dacs.
> 
> ...


I’m only saying, this always seemed the inevitable outcome, I don’t know why.
It is a free world.


----------



## CreditingKarma

ZappaMan said:


> I’m only saying, this always seemed the inevitable outcome, I don’t know why.
> It is a free world.



Fortunately it is a free country for now. I am going back to my Titties and Beer now.


----------



## audio_1

CreditingKarma said:


> Ps everybody should sell everything and just get the MSB select or Vivaldi stack



Why would we sell our Dave DACs, clearly the best available and purchase products that are conceptually flawed, with short tap length filters and multiple boxes and all the compromises that this brings?


----------



## CreditingKarma

audio_1 said:


> Why would we sell our Dave DACs, clearly the best available and purchase products that are conceptually flawed, with short tap length filters and multiple boxes and all the compromises that this brings?



Just joking my friend. I would be be very happy with the Dave and mscaler.


----------



## iDesign

audio_1 said:


> Why would we sell our Dave DACs, clearly the best available and purchase products that are conceptually flawed, with short tap length filters and multiple boxes and all the compromises that this brings?


As I said before:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-892#post-15079750


----------



## thomaskong78 (Jan 26, 2020)

CreditingKarma said:


> It is a good.thing that I don't really report or answer to Rob.
> 
> I also posted stating that we were doing a  3 way shootout of the dacs. Some one asked a question that I answered. I really enjoy trying different gear and seeing how it will sound as does my friend. I thought that there might be a few people that owned the Dave and would be interested in a few other dacs.
> 
> ...


My first serious audio system was Garrard turntable, Fisher Int(SS), ADS bookspeaker bought on 1978.

I bought Technics CD player on 1984.

It sound harsh and bright compared with vinyl.

I gave up vinyl when I moved from Berkeley to Chicago on 1988 since I had no room to carry in my small car.

I upgraded to California Audio Mark2 on 1989.

It was way better than Technics CD player with refined treble and better dynamics.

I had used passive pre, Krell KSA 150 to drive Apogee Duetta Sig.

On 1999, I upgraded to DCS Elgar and upsampler using TEC Tl0x transport.

Wow, I got the feeling that it could match good vinyl system.

But after using DCS Elgar for 6 years, it got out of order and I gave it up with uncertain repair cost and shipping to UK.

TEC Tl0x transport also had kept failing to read some CDs.

Thus I had chnaged to Accustic Arts CD transport and Dac which was a downgrade from DCS Elgar and upsampler using TEC Tl0x transport..

On 2010, I had got EMMLab Dac2 to replace Accustic Arts Dac.

It had excellent dynamics, details and soundstage which made me enjoy the music again with Lansche 4.1 speaker and Silbatone 300B SET amp.

On 2019 I had got Jay Audio CDT2 and Lyngdorf 2170 to use it as Room correction, Dac.

But after using it for 4 months, I found that Lyngdorf 2170 falls slightly short of EMMLab Dac2 on bass slam and details.

Thus I had auditioned several Dacs to upgrade  from Oct 2018 to May 2019


Point 100
There is nothing to criticize over MSB Select II except its high price around 100K$.
It has magical relaxed texture similar to top grade vinyl.

Dynamics, details, soundstage are all excellent.

Point 95
Kalista Dreamplay transport and Dac (80k$)
It is excellent matching MSB Select II on almost every aspects.

The only down side is that it does not have relaxed texture similar to top grade vinyl although it still sounds silky.

Point 91.
Trinity Dac(50k$)
This one is also all round player with hard to criticize.
But it falls slightly short of MSB Select II on details and relaxed texture.

Point 90
Lampiziator Pacific Dac(30k$)
I had auditioned this Dac with same setup with MSB Select II.

This one is also all round player with hard to criticize.
It falls slightly short of MSB Select II on dynamics and relaxed texture.
But this one has a nice bloom and full bodied sound,
which make some people prefer this one to MSB Select II



Point 85
Chord Dave and Mscaler(or Blue II transport)
This one give transparent and 3D soundstage with excellent details.
But it need good system matching.
It could sound analytical or hot coupled with bright combination of speaker and amplifier.
Without upscaling using Mscaler, its sound is mediocre around 75 points.

Point 84
MSB Premier with one more basic power supply (22k$)
I had auditioned this one side by side with Lampiziator Pacific Dac.
It matches Pacific Dac with Dynamics, details, soundstage but fall short of Pacific Dac in magical bloom and full body.
With improved power supply or clock, its performance have room to improve further.

Point 80
Formula XHD Dac (12k$)
I auditioned this one side by side with Trinity Dac
This one is a very musical player with full bloom.
But it falls short of Trinity Dac by one notch in dynamics and bass slam.

Point 79
TotalDac 6 tube version (9k$)
This one is also a very musical player.
But from the point of audiophile, its dynamics, details, soundstage are all one notch below the standard set by MSB Select II.


Point 78
MSB Discrete Dac with one additional basic power supply. (12k$)
This one has similar sound signature to MSB Premier
But it is half notch below MSB Premier on dynamics, details, soundstage.

Point 75
EmmLab Dac2
I paid 9K$ for this on 2010.
It matches Chord Dave and Mscaler on dynamics with slightly more bass slam.
But Chord Dave and Mscaler give more transparent and deeper soundstage than EmmLab Dac2 while soundstage width are comparable to each other.
This one has slight fuller sound than Chord Dave and Mscaler.
It is still working fine after 10 years of use.


Point 73.

Lyngdorf 2170
This one has Dac, pre and power amp, active crossover and room correction functions.
It’s Dac sounds very similar to EmmLab Dac2 but with slightly less details and bass slam.

There are many Dacs to audition but I could not audition all of them.


I had bought Chord Dave and Mscaler  May 2019.


Dac also depends on system matching.

If I do not use tube integrated amp (Line Magnetic 508), then I may have gone for Lamiziator Pacific Dac.
But I am afraid of too warm sound out of tube Dac and tube amp.



Dave will not go well with analytical speaker like Magico.

It is working better with my Lansche 4.1 which is kind of neutral not too warm like Harbeth or not too analytical like Magico or Wilson


After 7 months of using Dave and Mscaler, my grading of 85 points on Dave stand.

It is a pretty good Dac at the price point, but not the best Dac available now.

If I can shell out 100K$, I may go for MSB Select II.

If some innovative Dac better than MSB Select II come out under 50K$ in the future, then I will upgrade to it.

Otherwise, I expect to use Chord Dave and Mscaler for 3 years or longer.


----------



## ruthieandjohn

Could you note the (approximate) price for each of these, @thomaskong78 ?  Thanks!  Excellent, excellent comparison.


----------



## thomaskong78 (Jan 26, 2020)

ruthieandjohn said:


> Could you note the (approximate) price for each of these, @thomaskong78 ?  Thanks!  Excellent, excellent comparison.


I added approximate price of each  Dac  to help understanding.


----------



## ubs28

The reason I got the Chord Dave at the time was because it didn’t sound bad next to a $250.000 Esoteric setup. So it was a good price / performance.

Maybe there exist $100.000 DAC’s that are better than the Chord Dave, I don’t really care about it as the price / performance is terrible.

(Even if I was Bill Gates, I would not waste my money on $100k DAC’s)


----------



## Thenewguy007

ubs28 said:


> The reason I got the Chord Dave at the time was because it didn’t sound bad next to a $250.000 Esoteric setup. So it was a good price / performance.
> 
> Maybe there exist $100.000 DAC’s that are better than the Chord Dave, I don’t really care about it as the price / performance is terrible.
> 
> (Even if I was Bill Gates, I would not waste my money on $100k DAC’s)



Nothing about the MSB Select is even remotely worth $100,000. Even with inflated dealer markups & boutique pricing, they are marking it up to the stratosphere.


----------



## Muataz (Jan 26, 2020)

ubs28 said:


> The reason I got the Chord Dave at the time was because it didn’t sound bad next to a $250.000 Esoteric setup. So it was a good price / performance.
> 
> Maybe there exist $100.000 DAC’s that are better than the Chord Dave, I don’t really care about it as the price / performance is terrible.
> 
> (Even if I was Bill Gates, I would not waste my money on $100k DAC’s)


Building the best in the universe should not cost much as we talk about pure technical design.
CHORD Dave could be the most expensive deeply design DAC in the world and if you find it not your taste there is the best off the shelf DACs like akm4499 in Topping D90 for 699$ that could be even better than Dave. Who knows ?! There is no dark magic involved.

If you would like to try D90 or Gustard a22 for less than 1k$ and tell us how they compare against more expensive stuff.


----------



## miketlse

Thenewguy007 said:


> Nothing about the MSB Select is even remotely worth $100,000. Even with inflated dealer markups & boutique pricing, they are marking it up to the stratosphere.


It does feel like bragging rights are being exercised.


----------



## JaZZ (Jan 26, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> My first serious audio system was Garrard turntable, Fisher Int(SS), ADS bookspeaker bought on 1978.
> 
> I bought Technics CD player on 1984.
> 
> ...


It's interesting that you (and your friends) have vinyl sound as a reference – or so it seems. That's indeed something Rob and Dave don't aspire to. Hence your comment «But it needs good system matching. It could sound analytical or hot coupled with bright combination of speaker and amplifier» makes sense. To me it's a hint that it may in fact have the purest sound of the bunch, closest to the original – if we take synergistic effects with the speakers and your own sonic preference out of the equation. It would be a further confirmation that a sound as pure as possible is most revealing to tonal flaws in the chain – thus critical in many systems.

Of course I'm not entirely neutral, having a horse called Dave in the race. That said, I belong to those who like some aspects of vinyl, but prefer a sound that's neither digital nor analogue, just as close to the truth as it gets. And I firmly believe that technically the DAVE (even more so with the M Scaler) is the most advanced DAC to date, offering an output signal closest to the original.


----------



## GryphonGuy

ubs28 said:


> The reason I got the Chord Dave at the time was because it didn’t sound bad next to a $250.000 Esoteric setup. So it was a good price / performance.
> 
> Maybe there exist $100.000 DAC’s that are better than the Chord Dave, I don’t really care about it as the price / performance is terrible.
> 
> (Even if I was Bill Gates, I would not waste my money on $100k DAC’s)



The reason I bought my DAVE was because the Metronome Signature DAC ($30k USD at the time) died and Metronome was not able to resurrect it and did not offer me an incentive to remain with Metronome. In any case, the DAVE was way more transparent and satisfying. The DAVE is still pleasing me today and has renewed its usefulness because I have acquired a high-end professional ADC (3 years of waiting for DAVINA with no end in sight made me take a different approach) in the form of an Avid MTRX and its superbly clocked AES/EBU connection is yet another DAVE strength in allowing me to monitor the ADC process on-the-fly.

Regards
GG


----------



## thomaskong78 (Jan 27, 2020)

Actually I enjoy the sound of Dave and Mscaler to drive Sr1a headphone and Lansche 4.1 speaker.

About 20 years ago, I sold Wilson Watt Puppy 6 speaker within 6 months of buying new one since it sound too bright above my tolerance.

If I hate Dave and Mscaler, I would have done same thing.

Dave and Mscaler  is quite neutral with pretty good details.

But its bass impact and soundstage width are  just good (not excellent).


 I am not ready to spend 100K$ on MSB Select II even if i afford it.

Thus I am waiting for innovative Dac to come at reasonable price.

In the meantime, I am pretty happy with Dave and Mscaler.

I had done enough homework on cables and power management not to get too bright sound out of my system.


----------



## BPED

After some time with my new gear, I’d like to share some impressions..

I recently upgraded from Hugo2 to *Mscaler + Dave* and today my set up is:

Macbook Pro as Roon Core (Qobuz) – ethernet – router – ethernet - SOTM SMS 200 + SPS 500 - USB cable (Chord Shawline) – *Mscaler* – BCN cable (Wave Stream) – *Dave* – *Focal Utopia* / ATC speakers.

*Moving from Hugo2 to M-Dave* has been a fantastic upgrade but rather than being impressed right away it took me some time to understand and appreciate the change. I listen mostly to jazz, acoustic music, classic music and I particularly care about realism of tone.

Initially I noticed a smoother, rounder presentation of the music, very pleasant. At times I almost fell the music was “slower”, a strange trick played by Dave on my brain. I didn’t notice extreme definition or lots of new details. I think I also felt a bit less bass.

With time I got used to the new sound signature and I went back and forth to the Hugo2 to compare. I realized that M Dave is actually much more detailed than Hugo2 but it is all well integrated, details do not stand out but contribute to the realistic tonal and spatial presentation of instruments and voices, which is vastly improved. That makes sense… listening to a drum kit live I would never think “How detailed it sounds!” but simply enjoy.  That is the magic of Chord DAC in combination with a revealing headphone like Utopia. Bass is also more defined and controlled compared to Hugo2 and at first it may seem lighter, but it is all there. 

*My second step was to look for optimizing my set up upgrading BNC cables*. Note that I didn’t have any problem of fatigue or RF (I wouldn’t know how to recognize it) with stock cables, they sound great to me and I just checked out of curiosity.

 A first trial with quality silver BNC cables gave me a tighter, leaner sound which I found fatiguing pretty quickly. I preferred the stock ones.

That confirmed that BNC connections do matter so I decided to go for *Wave Stream BNC*. They are heavy, well-built and not very flexible. They proved to be a worthwhile upgrade in my system. Initially they seemed to add a slightly darker tone compared to stock but I quickly adjusted to that and I cannot hear the effect anymore. Instruments are now better defined, with more controlled bass and a much cleaner “texture”. In comparison, I realize now that stock cable was a bit fuzzy or “grainy”. All this without losing the smooth, non-fatiguing sound I experienced before. Overall, they add a bit of weight and bass, which goes perfectly with my set up. Recommended!

I have a couple more things coming up and I will report here… thanks for reading


----------



## odessamarin

thank you, great impressions.


----------



## MacedonianHero (Jan 29, 2020)

Drewligarchy said:


> I have a bunch of external amps and I keep coming back to the Dave / M Scaler headphone out for Abyss. I have the Benchmark HPA4 on trial, and while it's the closest amp I've heard so far to the Dave output - the HPA4 has a hint of dryness to the midrange, whereas Dave is completely smooth.
> 
> I don't sense any lack of power or straining with the Abyss at any volume. Though with some dynamic recordings you just don't have quite the volume you need (I'm always super nervous to go past +3db and that I'll clip).
> 
> ...



I'd look at the cables in between your DAVE and HPA4 with either the Phi TC or Susvara. I'm using the Water Audioquest XLRs and love it...just perfect tonality to my ears.


----------



## MacedonianHero

jonstatt said:


> The HPA4 is as transparent as it gets, as you say. I don't see an alternative for the Abyss right now. You should find the soundstage opens up a bit compared to DAVE directly too. So it's better here and slightly not there. Overall it's still better.



Pretty much my impressions as well.


----------



## gnomen

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I don’t know if any others here have tested their electrics for DC Offset. It’s a form of electrical ‘double vision’ or blur. It affects the imaging and density of your images. As far as I can ascertain in the UK this is a very common problem.


Following Dave's post a little while back, I borrowed an EVO 3 SYNCRO UNI to insert in my power supply.  It is specifically aimed at removing stray DC offset current from the public supply.  On initial listening I have to say it does make quite a difference, in pretty much the way Dave described in his post.  I don't think it is a complete power cleaner - removing RFI/EMI for example - but 'focus' is a good word for what it does do.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

gnomen said:


> Following Dave's post a little while back, I borrowed an EVO 3 SYNCRO UNI to insert in my power supply.  It is specifically aimed at removing stray DC offset current from the public supply.  On initial listening I have to say it does make quite a difference, in pretty much the way Dave described in his post.  I don't think it is a complete power cleaner - removing RFI/EMI for example - but 'focus' is a good word for what it does do.




Hi gnomen I wonder did you try feeding straight into the Dave and alternatively feeding your whole electrics hub? If so did you discern any difference either way?


----------



## jonstatt (Feb 1, 2020)

MacedonianHero said:


> I'd look at the cables in between your DAVE and HPA4 with either the Phi TC or Susvara. I'm using the Water Audioquest XLRs and love it...just perfect tonality to my ears.



I tried the AQ Earth, AQ Sky and Chord Shawline. The best by far was the Earth (which shares its roots with the water). There are some that swear by that cable despite it not being the fashionable all silver cables like the Sky. The Earth is a mid priced gem. The more expensive Sky made the sound thinner, which gave the illusion of more detail but i found it fatiguing. Earth gives a warm edge while not losing any detail. After extensive comparison, I stand by what I said previously. The soundstage is wider with the demanding headphones via the HPA4 than DAVE directly. This can mean moving the artists a few steps further away which I can understand may be perceived as reduced intimacy. But the more I switched back and forth I realized with some tracks the intimacy was just as present with the HPA4 when the soundstage of the recording was smaller.


----------



## gnomen

DaveRedRef-III said:


> did you try feeding straight into the Dave and alternatively feeding your whole electrics hub?


Actually, I had not thought of doing that.  I use an Isotek distribution board for the whole hifi setup and connected to it so all devices would benefit.  Let me think about how to re-arrange connections so that only the Chord DAC is using the Syncro.  BTW I opted for HMS+TT2 as preferable to a Dave for now, but who knows what the future will hold?


----------



## jonstatt

gnomen said:


> Following Dave's post a little while back, I borrowed an EVO 3 SYNCRO UNI to insert in my power supply.  It is specifically aimed at removing stray DC offset current from the public supply.  On initial listening I have to say it does make quite a difference, in pretty much the way Dave described in his post.  I don't think it is a complete power cleaner - removing RFI/EMI for example - but 'focus' is a good word for what it does do.



What is the likelihood of DC on the mains in the UK?


----------



## hmartin

I think the common understanding is that dc like rfi is more and more likely due to new devices and led lampes etc. But I don’t know for sure.

Perhaps @Rob Watts could comment on if Dave is sensitive to dc, my main experience is that power transformers tend to sound more if there is dc, but Dave psu does not have a big transformer.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

From what I understand it is pretty common


----------



## Triode User

hmartin said:


> I think the common understanding is that dc like rfi is more and more likely due to new devices and led lampes etc. But I don’t know for sure.
> 
> Perhaps @Rob Watts could comment on if Dave is sensitive to dc, my main experience is that power transformers tend to sound more if there is dc, but Dave psu does not have a big transformer.



It will be interesting to see about this and I await to see if RW has any thoughts. One might anticipate that the medical grade smps in the Dave power supply should not be particularly worried by this issue and should be stable, low noise and unaffected by dc offset on the mains.


----------



## tchu6 (Feb 13, 2020)

ok


----------



## jonstatt

tchu6 said:


> So I am also running the DAVE + HMS combo but i'm having the issues with drop outs and slight popping noise when using Dual BNC connections. I know this is quite a common issue. I've tried switching the BNC 1 + 2 on the DAVE to 3 + 4 but I still seem to have the dropouts on both sets of BNC on the DAVE. Using the stock BNC cables that came with the m scaler. (Btw does BNC 1 on the HMS connect to the 3 or 4 on the DAVE? I have tried both BNC 1 (HMS) to BNC 3/4 (DAVE) and BNC 2 (HMS) to 3/4 (DAVE)) and either way the drop out / pop noises issues still occur regardless).
> 
> With the HMS upsample rate in low (red), medium (green), and high (purple) the issue is gone as well. It only occurs when in max upsample mode (white) which in turns activates the D BNC input on DAVE side. I believe the dropouts and pop noises only come when DBNC input on DAVE is activated.
> 
> ...



It sounds like your DAVE needs to go back for a modification.  Apparently some Dave's need this.


----------



## Triode User (Feb 4, 2020)

tchu6 said:


> So I am also running the DAVE + HMS combo but i'm having the issues with drop outs and slight popping noise when using Dual BNC connections. I know this is quite a common issue. I've tried switching the BNC 1 + 2 on the DAVE to 3 + 4 but I still seem to have the dropouts on both sets of BNC on the DAVE. Using the stock BNC cables that came with the m scaler. (Btw does BNC 1 on the HMS connect to the 3 or 4 on the DAVE? I have tried both BNC 1 (HMS) to BNC 3/4 (DAVE) and BNC 2 (HMS) to 3/4 (DAVE)) and either way the drop out / pop noises issues still occur regardless).
> 
> With the HMS upsample rate in low (red), medium (green), and high (purple) the issue is gone as well. It only occurs when in max upsample mode (white) which in turns activates the D BNC input on DAVE side. I believe the dropouts and pop noises only come when DBNC input on DAVE is activated.
> 
> ...



I have had a Dave since they were first introduced and I NEVER had any drop outs ever. Well not until a couple of days ago when I got quite a few and was rather concerned. Luckily I realised that I had been swopping stuff around and had accidentally put dave near to a power supply for a different piece of equipment. I moved the power supply and all was returned to 'no drop out' stability.

It is worth checking if you have anything else near to Dave or near to any cables connected to Dave.

If that doesn't work then as others have said, a return to Chord might be required for adjustment.


----------



## tunes (Feb 6, 2020)

I finally got the YouTube app on the IBASSO DX 220 DAP device that I use as a portable music file transport via optical out and YES it it can output the audio stream and be up-scaled by my CHORD DAVE/HMS. The only problem is that lip synch is way off making watching the music video annoying. Does anyone have a fix for the synch problem? I think this sort of thing happens with some digital TV monitors and a delay needs to be dialed into the video signal.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Feb 7, 2020)

I've recently changed my USB cable feeding the M Scaler/Dave combo. Never ceases to amaze me how a USB cable can change the sound of a system.

I previously used the Danacable TruStream USB. What the new FTA Callisto 0.8 mtr USB brings to my system is the following:
Improved Timbre/Tone, More believable and natural dynamics, more weight in the lower mids, more weight in the lower bass (almost like I have added a very subtle subwoofer to the mix), improved flow and musicality, much more natural high's (less edgy particularly when using Synergistic Research HFT's on my speakers), Less shouty sound, more organic and natural presentation ................ I guess more like real music.


----------



## tchu6 (Feb 13, 2020)




----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I think you need to have it looked at.


----------



## iDesign (Feb 8, 2020)

tchu6 said:


> So I am also running the DAVE + HMS combo but i'm having the issues with drop outs and slight popping noise when using Dual BNC connections. I know this is quite a common issue. I've tried switching the BNC 1 + 2 on the DAVE to 3 + 4 but I still seem to have the dropouts on both sets of BNC on the DAVE. Using the stock BNC cables that came with the m scaler. (Btw does BNC 1 on the HMS connect to the 3 or 4 on the DAVE? I have tried both BNC 1 (HMS) to BNC 3/4 (DAVE) and BNC 2 (HMS) to 3/4 (DAVE)) and either way the drop out / pop noises issues still occur regardless).
> 
> With the HMS upsample rate in low (red), medium (green), and high (purple) the issue is gone as well. It only occurs when in max upsample mode (white) which in turns activates the D BNC input on DAVE side. I believe the dropouts and pop noises only come when DBNC input on DAVE is activated.
> 
> ...


Contact Chord, I'm sure they will assist you. And once its working, you will have one of the finest DACs available. I rediscovered new tracks like I have never heard before tonight and I looked over at my DAVE+Blu Mk 2 and smiled-- you will soon too. Thank you for connecting me with the music, @Rob Watts.


----------



## F208Frank (Feb 8, 2020)

What are the main differences between having HMS with the DAVE and without?


----------



## ZappaMan

F208Frank said:


> What are the main differences between having HMS with the DAVE and without?


HMS is only an upscaler, its not a DAC, so you'll need a DAC to plug it into, which your headphones will then plug into the DAC.


----------



## F208Frank (Feb 8, 2020)

ZappaMan said:


> HMS is only an upscaler, its not a DAC, so you'll need a DAC to plug it into, which your headphones will then plug into the DAC.


Sorry I meant what are the differences of a DAVE having a HMS and not having a HMS. The reviews are so overwhelming that the HMS is a must have, but I can't pin point what exactly does it do other than the general thought that it makes music sound more "analog"


----------



## ZappaMan

F208Frank said:


> Sorry I meant what are the differences of a DAVE having a HMS and not having a HMS. The reviews are so overwhelming that the HMS is a must have, but I can't pin point what exactly does it do other than the general thought that it makes music sound more "analog and warm"


@ray-dude's review is probably good to read, as blu2 and mscaler share similar upscaling feature.

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-blu-mk-ii-digital-cd-transport.22848/reviews#review-19675


----------



## thread (Feb 8, 2020)

Some while back on this thread, a few members spoke highly of Dave of ZenWave Audio and his custom-made cables. Well, I reached out to him for a pair as well. I've been very happy with it after a year and change of really enjoying this cable directly connecting my Dave to a pair of lovely and efficient Omega CAM bookshelf speakers.

I've recently rearranged my gear, and this pair of RCA to spade cables are now up for sale. The 4-foot cables feature ZenWave's top end SMSG 20g speaker cable and all Furutech connectors. The wire is UPOCC silver/gold alloy wire with teflon insulation of ZenWave's own design. If anyone is interested in more info, feel free to shoot me a PM.


----------



## thread (Feb 9, 2020)

In other news, I've had Dave + M Scaler for about a year now, mostly sourcing from an Allo USBridge. It's a USB reclocker hat for their Sparky computer -- which is a lot like a Raspberry Pi. So it runs linux with the Roon Bridge software.

I use Focal Stellia the most, I think, but Utopia, QDC Anole VX, Sony Z1R, LCD-i4, and LCD-2rev2 are also in rotation.

Just incredible sound out of any of them. Chord's stuff been just a pleasure to use.

On/off controls are in my Home Assistant software setup where I can toggle its zone of my PSAudio Power Plant 12 on my phone or in a browser.


----------



## musickid

how is the z1r with your set up?


----------



## JamieMcC

Could anybody help with identifying the age of a Chord Dave with a serial number #37600
TIA


----------



## miketlse

JamieMcC said:


> Could anybody help with identifying the age of a Chord Dave with a serial number #37600
> TIA


That is that the pre-owned DAVE being sold by Nintronics.
I messaged them a couple of months ago, asking for more information, but never received a reply.
My wallet was half open, but I closed it again once it was clear that i had been ignored.
I know that several posters rate Nintronics highly, but they have failed to impress me regarding this DAVE.
Good luck all the same, because it is an attractive price.


----------



## musickid

what does it mean when it says this equipment must be earthed on the back of the dave? why and how do you actually do this? i don't recall seeing it on any other chord dacs.


----------



## Triode User

JamieMcC said:


> Could anybody help with identifying the age of a Chord Dave with a serial number #37600
> TIA



Well mine is serial number 31331 and I bought mine in Dec 2016.  So I would say that serial number 37600 is a lot more recent than mine and should probably have a big chunk of guarantee left. 

If you are in the UK why not phone Nintronics?


----------



## JamieMcC

Cheers I was planning to give them a call later in the week.


----------



## F208Frank

For most DAVE owners in here, did you guys feel more wowed when jumping from previous DAC to DAVE or from already having a DAVE and adding M scaler to it?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Triode User

F208Frank said:


> For most DAVE owners in here, did you guys feel more wowed when jumping from previous DAC to DAVE or from already having a DAVE and adding M scaler to it?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



From previous dac (Bricasti M1SE).


----------



## ray-dude

F208Frank said:


> For most DAVE owners in here, did you guys feel more wowed when jumping from previous DAC to DAVE or from already having a DAVE and adding M scaler to it?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



I jumped (unheard) from a Chord Mojo to the DAVE.  What I heard in the Mojo I wanted as much as I could possibly get.  That was a really big check to write (20x).  I was confident but nervous.  It exceeded my way high expectations by a country mile.  With Blu2 (mScaler) I had zero hesitation and zero nervousness (preordered).


----------



## thread

@F208Frank: For me, Dave was the bigger upgrade. Even though I came from Hugo 2, Dave added more conviction and detail. M Scaler seems to add a bit more air and smoothness somehow, but to me I think it was a smaller change.

@musickid: Off the bat, I really like how the Z1R is so comfortable with its light-pressure earpads and overall lightweight nature. Versus the Focals and LCD-i4, I think the Z1R misses out on some high frequency air and overall focus & clarity (though there is plenty), but what you get is a marvelous body and low end to satisfy a basshead. Its presentation is involving and fun, but probably not one a mixing engineer would want. (They call the product Signature, not Reference.) However, for a wide range of music from jazz to drum & bass, I really enjoy these headphones.


----------



## iDesign (Feb 9, 2020)

ray-dude said:


> I jumped (unheard) from a Chord Mojo to the DAVE.  What I heard in the Mojo I wanted as much as I could possibly get.  That was a really big check to write (20x).  I was confident but nervous.  It exceeded my way high expectations by a country mile.  With Blu2 (mScaler) I had zero hesitation and zero nervousness (preordered).


Similarly within the Chord line, I purchased the Mojo and several months later I bought the DAVE. It wasn’t until I added the Blu Mk 2 that I really began to appreciate the DAVE. I should also mention that I previously owned several “end game” DACs but the Mojo was an important, inexpensive purchase because it helped me understand how @Rob Watts DACs excel in creating the spatial senses of height, width, and depth. And it’s now become the inverse— I use the Mojo as my mini DAVE on the go.

I have no reason to upgrade from the DAVE and Blu Mk 2. Case closed.


----------



## jlbrach

I havent heard anything better as of yet


----------



## Foxman50

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I've recently changed my USB cable feeding the M Scaler/Dave combo. Never ceases to amaze me how a USB cable can change the sound of a system.
> 
> I previously used the Danacable TruStream USB. What the new FTA Callisto 0.8 mtr USB brings to my system is the following:
> Improved Timbre/Tone, More believable and natural dynamics, more weight in the lower mids, more weight in the lower bass (almost like I have added a very subtle subwoofer to the mix), improved flow and musicality, much more natural high's (less edgy particularly when using Synergistic Research HFT's on my speakers), Less shouty sound, more organic and natural presentation ................ I guess more like real music.


Just been through the same process and same conclusion with the FTA, sounds more natural/organic than any USB ive heard. Have tried the Ganymede interconnect but not convinced by that.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Feb 10, 2020)

musickid said:


> what does it mean when it says this equipment must be earthed on the back of the dave? why and how do you actually do this? i don't recall seeing it on any other chord dacs.



I am pretty sure they simply mean 'do not lift the earth on your connectors or power cable.

In addition to these usual earthing means I use an 'earthing block' and earth Dave via the AES XLR input and Blu MkII M Scaler via the BNC input (as well as other components). Some people may be skeptical (about Grounding Blocks) but the difference in noise floor and clarity is not subtle on my system.


----------



## musickid

thanks for the reply @thread


----------



## yellowblue

I just got new BNC-cables from a renowned manufactor (not Wave-cables). The cables have a tight fit on the M-Scaler already but are just too tight to fit on the DAVE. I never had this problem with other cables (have used 3 different pairs). The cables neither fit on input 1+2 nor on 3+4. Somebody who experienced the same problems?


----------



## Foxman50

I tried some Chord offerings recently, one set were extremely tight, though connected without issue. They had a matt finish to the connector, which while i like the appearance i do wonder if this is just plated ontop of the existing and hence the tight fit.


----------



## tunes

jacc said:


> Hi. I have been using dual bnc output of blu mk2 without any problem. This morning I tried using a single bnc cable via the "single bnc output", but sample rate is only showing 176.4 (instead of 352) on DAVE. Just wondering if anyone of you are using the single bnc output to DAVE? I have also checked the upsample toggle switch but no help.



I understand that the SCHIIT LOKI Tone controller goes between the DAC analogue output and the external preamp/amp analogue inputs. Is there any way to use this gadget with a CHORD DAVE/HMS set up? Since the preamp/amp is integral to the DAVE, am not sure how this could work without polluting the chain with an external amp.


----------



## ecwl

tunes said:


> I understand that the SCHIIT LOKI Tone controller goes between the DAC analogue output and the external preamp/amp analogue inputs. Is there any way to use this gadget with a CHORD DAVE/HMS set up? Since the preamp/amp is integral to the DAVE, am not sure how this could work without polluting the chain with an external amp.


It depends on your digital source to the HMS. If you can do parametric EQ or other DSP to your digital source prior to sending it to HMS that preserves the original sample rate, it is likely that this kind of EQ would be much more transparent than a $150 Schiit Loki analog device. That said, some EQ/DSP with some software/hardware changes the sample rate say from 44.1kHz to 96kHz which would obviously worsen the performance because it's not a high-end upsampling like HMS from 44.1kHz to 705.6kHz. Ultimately, once you need to EQ, you're always losing some degree of transparency, the question is how much. I use Roon and UltraRendu as a source so I EQ for my room and speakers but not for my headphones. But I don't do a full convolution because I believe the harm outweighs the benefits, I just do a couple of selective parametric EQ to remove room peaks and that's it. It was a reasonable compromise with minimal loss of transparency.


----------



## yellowblue

In the end I succeeded to get the cables in place. It was the center pins which were very tight and not easy to get in the right position. Now my Sablon BNC-cables sound promising (without burn in yet) but already better than the Belden cables I used before. More details, more natural sounding, less digital glare.


----------



## Sound Trooper

I must be crazy but I am thinking about trading in my hugo TT2 + m-scaler for a Dave. I remembered listening to the Dave a couple of years ago and was immediately struck by the intricacies of the presentation.

Would I be foolish to give up the 1M+ tap performance of the Hugo TT2+M-scaler and just rely on the Dave?

Decisions decisions..


----------



## iDesign (Feb 20, 2020)

Sound Trooper said:


> I must be crazy but I am thinking about trading in my hugo TT2 + m-scaler for a Dave. I remembered listening to the Dave a couple of years ago and was immediately struck by the intricacies of the presentation.
> 
> Would I be foolish to give up the 1M+ tap performance of the Hugo TT2+M-scaler and just rely on the Dave?
> 
> Decisions decisions..


Do it, don't look back. The DAVE just provides a listening experience that is immersive and natural.


----------



## PhenixS1970

Sound Trooper said:


> I must be crazy but I am thinking about trading in my hugo TT2 + m-scaler for a Dave. I remembered listening to the Dave a couple of years ago and was immediately struck by the intricacies of the presentation.
> 
> Would I be foolish to give up the 1M+ tap performance of the Hugo TT2+M-scaler and just rely on the Dave?
> 
> Decisions decisions..



Searching for a second hands DAVE and sell the TT2 after could get you a better $ deal. But, even more important, top tier sound .  You’ll most likely always wonder how the M-DAVE sounds....and with reason.  It’s THAT good.


----------



## Triode User

Sound Trooper said:


> I must be crazy but I am thinking about trading in my hugo TT2 + m-scaler for a Dave. I remembered listening to the Dave a couple of years ago and was immediately struck by the intricacies of the presentation.
> 
> Would I be foolish to give up the 1M+ tap performance of the Hugo TT2+M-scaler and just rely on the Dave?
> 
> Decisions decisions..



I have always swum slightly against the tide and and I prefer solo Dave to TT2+Mscaler.  

You could always keep your eyes open for a second hand Mscaler after getting Dave.


----------



## anygreg

You guys ain’t helping me save my money you know. I was thinking TT2+HMS. Looks like I’ll be going DAVE. I’m Heading to the bristol show tomorrow, I’ll have a chat with the nice chaps at Chord, get me a proper demo. 
still can’t decide on silver or black. Decisions decisions.


----------



## Triode User

I had Blu2 and Dave from when they first came out.  I had (freely admit it is a tough life!) to get TT2 and Mscaler to help develop my cables and like many I wondered if the TT2 would be near enough to the Dave so I could sell the Dave. IMO the TT2 just isn't in the same ballpark as Dave and unless TT2 is needed to drive difficult headphones it would be Dave every time for me if it is feasible financially.

But your best plan is to go to Bristol and talk to the nice Chord chaps and then seek out a dealer that you can bully cajole into giving you a good deal on a Dave!


----------



## anygreg

In all fairness I’ll be listening through a 2 channel system, only use headphones when travelling. For eg to the bristol show on the train for over 3 hrs.
presuming the DAVE more than holds it own in this capacity, not sure if the improvements in sound will be as prolific as through cans, but I’m sure a measurable improvement through speakers. Setting wallet to self destruct mode.


----------



## miketlse

anygreg said:


> You guys ain’t helping me save my money you know. I was thinking TT2+HMS. Looks like I’ll be going DAVE. I’m Heading to the bristol show tomorrow, I’ll have a chat with the nice chaps at Chord, get me a proper demo.
> still can’t decide on silver or black. Decisions decisions.


There was the pre-owned dave on sale at nintronics


----------



## anygreg

miketlse said:


> There was the pre-owned dave on sale at nintronics



yeah saw that, not had fantastic dealings with nintronics to be fair, last contact I had with them took ages to reply, but when they finally did, boy did they try to push the sale. When spending that amount of cash I’d rather deal direct with a company that allows some breathing room for me to find out if its what I want, then and after that we can negotiate a good, better deal Etc.. never want to feel rushed especially with a huge outlay like this.


----------



## Triode User

anygreg said:


> In all fairness I’ll be listening through a 2 channel system, only use headphones when travelling. For eg to the bristol show on the train for over 3 hrs.
> presuming the DAVE more than holds it own in this capacity, not sure if the improvements in sound will be as prolific as through cans, but I’m sure a measurable improvement through speakers. Setting wallet to self destruct mode.



I only use speakers but for me the improvement with Dave in a speaker system is significant and worth a listen. There is a little used Dave on eBay UK at the moment open to offers . . . .


----------



## tunes

Has anyone settled on the best power conditioner, active or passive compatible with the nearly black background of DAVE?   I was wondering if anyone has tried to AB SQ using a PS Audio Power Plant 3 for example?


----------



## TheAttorney

Sound Trooper said:


> I must be crazy but I am thinking about trading in my hugo TT2 + m-scaler for a Dave. I remembered listening to the Dave a couple of years ago and was immediately struck by the intricacies of the presentation.
> 
> Would I be foolish to give up the 1M+ tap performance of the Hugo TT2+M-scaler and just rely on the Dave?



It would be both foolish and crazy to give up the M-Scaler, only to (inevitably) buy it again.
If you can't afford to part exchange your TT2 for a DAVE, or find a second hand DAVE, then save up some money until you can.

OTOH, you're an audiophile, so "foolish" and "crazy" are par for the course


----------



## Foxman50

There is a silver example on HiFi for sale at a reasonable price. Personally i would have a phone around Chord dealers, suspect there are deals to be done.


----------



## iDesign

anygreg said:


> You guys ain’t helping me save my money you know. I was thinking TT2+HMS. Looks like I’ll be going DAVE. I’m Heading to the bristol show tomorrow, I’ll have a chat with the nice chaps at Chord, get me a proper demo.
> still can’t decide on silver or black. Decisions decisions.


Black seems to have higher resale. Click, add to cart, checkout.


----------



## Sound Trooper

Thanks guys.. this has made my decision a whole lot easier. I thought I was delusional when preferred the Dave to the TT2+Mscaler.


----------



## STR-1

anygreg said:


> yeah saw that, not had fantastic dealings with nintronics to be fair, last contact I had with them took ages to reply, but when they finally did, boy did they try to push the sale. When spending that amount of cash I’d rather deal direct with a company that allows some breathing room for me to find out if its what I want, then and after that we can negotiate a good, better deal Etc.. never want to feel rushed especially with a huge outlay like this.


Sorry to hear you had this experience.  If it’s just the once, I would give them another try.  I’ve been dealing with Nintronics for a few years, and never had a bad experience.  They were never pushy, not even when I decided not to buy gear they had loaned to me.


----------



## Lucky87

Guy’s I’m in the process of buying a new Dave in Silver what is the best but not crazy in price for a Power Cable and also a good USB cable? And I am already using the following a DH Labs Mirage USB Cable 1 Meter and a AUDIOQUEST Carbon USB. And the Power Cable is a AUDIOQUEST NRG-Z3 with the new AUDIOQUEST NIAGARA 1200.


----------



## AndrewOld

Lucky87 said:


> Guy’s I’m in the process of buying a new Dave in Silver what is the best but not crazy in price for a Power Cable and also a good USB cable? And I am already using the following a DH Labs Mirage USB Cable 1 Meter and a AUDIOQUEST Carbon USB. And the Power Cable is a AUDIOQUEST NRG-Z3 with the new AUDIOQUEST NIAGARA 1200.


If you haven‘t got an M Scaler I think you should put all your money towards getting one. Then, and only then, if you have any money left, mess with cables.


----------



## Lucky87

I have listened to the combo 2 times and find it does wonders for the TT2, but for me I thought it took the Dave backwards in sound making it sound hollow and thin. Not sure if the sales person had it setup incorrectly or had a certain filter ON giving me that effect but as of now this is what I am looking for and if I want more I can always upgrade later.


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> If you haven‘t got an M Scaler I think you should put all your money towards getting one. Then, and only then, if you have any money left, mess with cables.



I absolutely agree with this advice.


----------



## tunes

I finally got the YouTube app on the IBASSO DX 220 DAP device that I use as a portable music file transport via optical out and YES it it can output the audio stream and be up-scaled by my CHORD DAVE/HMS. The only problem is that lip synch is way off making watching the music video annoying. Is there any way to correct the lip synch problem?


----------



## Sound Trooper

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG......

I finally found a used Dave with stand!!!! I just made the payment and will probably receive it next week!!! Can’t wait!


----------



## Lucky87

Sound Trooper said:


> OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG......
> 
> I finally found a used Dave with stand!!!! I just made the payment and will probably receive it next week!!! Can’t wait!



Congrats I just purchased a NEW Dave today in Silver..  What color did you get?


----------



## Sound Trooper

Lucky87 said:


> Congrats I just purchased a NEW Dave today in Silver..  What color did you get?



I got a black unit. Congrats on the new Dave as well!


----------



## tunes

Congrats on the DAVE acquisition. 

Does anyone think that a power conditioner or regenerator like one of the PS audio devices make a SIGNIFICANT difference in SQ and worth the investment with DAVE plus HMS?


----------



## Amberlamps

I so want a Dave, if I had 5k spare I would trade in my TT2 for it.

I would keep my mscaler though, it's just a pity that chord don't sell refurbished dave's. I would also love to compare Dave to TT2 in my home setup, but I haven't got £8500 spare in my pocket to put down as a deposit.

I wonder if anyone can answer this, the mscaler, does it upscale 24bit tracks or is it limited to upscaling 16 bit ? Basically, if I had two 44.1khz tracks that were the same, except one was 16bit and the other 24bit, would they both get upscaled using the full 1 million taps ? 

Omg qobuz just started playing "song for athene" that track gives me goosebumps, as it was the track that was sung by a choir when princess diana was leaving St Pauls cathedral after the service. 

Where has 23 years gone ? I remember it like it was yesterday.


----------



## F208Frank

tunes said:


> Congrats on the DAVE acquisition.
> 
> Does anyone think that a power conditioner or regenerator like one of the PS audio devices make a SIGNIFICANT difference in SQ and worth the investment with DAVE plus HMS?


Regarding the PS Audio Power Plant, I tried it myself and it was not for me. Some people do say it helps them though, so best thing to do is try yourself. It definitely changes the sound a little bit, whether that sort of change is good or not for you is up to yourself. I feel it is mainly used for people who have power issues, but that is just my opinion.


----------



## GryphonGuy

tunes said:


> Congrats on the DAVE acquisition.
> 
> Does anyone think that a power conditioner or regenerator like one of the PS audio devices make a SIGNIFICANT difference in SQ and worth the investment with DAVE plus HMS?



Shunyata Research Denali and Shunyata Sigma NR power cable on my DAVE. SIGNIFICANTLY better than standard power cable in my apartment block otherwise known as a power swamp. The fact that the Denali isolates 3 pairs of outlets from each other is audio gold as well. The newer Sigma NR cable is far more neutral than the old Digital, HC and Analogue models.

Regards
GG


----------



## Sound Trooper

So I am now waiting for the seller to send me the Dave and I have already sold my Blu Mk2 to finance it. As for my Hugo TT2, I’m kinda undecided on selling it as I might use it for my work desk. Having the Dave next to the Hugo TT2 will also allow me to compare them side by side. 
hmmm.. but it’s a bit overkill to keep 2 high end dacs right?


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> Congrats on the DAVE acquisition.
> Does anyone think that a power conditioner or regenerator like one of the PS audio devices make a SIGNIFICANT difference in SQ and worth the investment with DAVE plus HMS?



I used to have a PS Audio P10 regenerator which I bought to tame the rather high mains voltage we have in our village. It worked a treat for that and my valve amps were much happier.

I tried the P10 with my Dave but couldn’t really hear any difference. On the other hand there are only 3 houses including ours connected to the power company transformer on the pole in the street so mains pollution is possibly low.

However for less money than the P10, I have now changed the Dave internal power supply and have bought a third party external LPS specially designed and configured for the Dave by Sean Jacobs (he who does the Innuos Statement and other power supplies). For my ears this has made a clear and significant improvement to the sound quality of my Dave with clearer / deeper bass and an even smoother top end, both of which is saying something because Dave is already a world leader in all of those areas.

But whilst the swop is easy and only involves unplugging with no soldering it is not for those who get worried about such things or for those who would lose sleep over this sort of thing. Although for anyone not confident about taking the top off the Dave, the power supply manufacturer can do the Dave conversion (and which is all easily returned back to stock spec). 

For me all I can say is that it is one of the bigger improvements to sound quality that I have experienced with my system. I plan to do a little write up at some point because I have tried a few Dave, Blu2, Mscaler and TT2 power supply options over the last few weeks with rather pleasing results but if anyone wants info before then you can PM me. 

Just to clarify, this is not me offering this as a service and it is just me as a regular Dave owner trying to squeeze the best I can out if it.


----------



## tunes

Triode User said:


> I used to have a PS Audio P10 regenerator which I bought to tame the rather high mains voltage we have in our village. It worked a treat for that and my valve amps were much happier.
> 
> I tried the P10 with my Dave but couldn’t really hear any difference. On the other hand there are only 3 houses including ours connected to the power company transformer on the pole in the street so mains pollution is possibly low.
> 
> ...


It would be helpful to tell us what the cost is and also to have an audio engineer or better yet, have CHORD themselves objectively measure any real world changes.  Then the end user can decide if altering the stock DAVE is worth the trouble.  An A to B subjective listening session would ultimately be the best way to make the decision.


----------



## miketlse

tunes said:


> It would be helpful to tell us what the cost is and also to have an audio engineer or better yet, have CHORD themselves objectively measure any real world changes.  Then the end user can decide if altering the stock DAVE is worth the trouble.  An A to B subjective listening session would ultimately be the best way to make the decision.


If you search back over the last few months, you will find a few posts by Triode, where he mentions this mod.
To date, he has been very cautious and refused to publicly post the fine details of the mod - I suspect he knows in his heart what would be the response from Rob and Chord.


----------



## Malcyg (Feb 23, 2020)

miketlse said:


> If you search back over the last few months, you will find a few posts by Triode, where he mentions this mod.
> To date, he has been very cautious and refused to publicly post the fine details of the mod - I suspect he knows in his heart what would be the response from Rob and Chord.



As ingenious as I think Rob’s work is, proven by the fact that I have a Blu II, a Dave, a Hugo 2 and a MojoPoly, the power supply end of the Dave is a definite weak link in the chain and Triode’s comments do not surprise me at all. I highly doubt that Rob would pass comment anyway, but he might possibly even agree with that privately, even if he couldn’t accept it publicly. I found benefit in keeping Dave on a separate supply from the rest of my system.

I upgraded last year from the Zenith SE to the Statement. It was a very good upgrade and the detailed attention to power supply is a big part of it.


----------



## Sound Trooper

Triode User said:


> I used to have a PS Audio P10 regenerator which I bought to tame the rather high mains voltage we have in our village. It worked a treat for that and my valve amps were much happier.
> 
> I tried the P10 with my Dave but couldn’t really hear any difference. On the other hand there are only 3 houses including ours connected to the power company transformer on the pole in the street so mains pollution is possibly low.
> 
> ...



Hi Nick, this is highly interesting. Please share more if possible.


----------



## miketlse (Feb 23, 2020)

Malcyg said:


> As ingenious as I think Rob’s work is, proven by the fact that I have a Blu II, a Dave, a Hugo 2 and a MojoPoly, the power supply end of the Dave is a definite weak link in the chain and Triode’s comments do not surprise me at all. I highly doubt that Rob would pass comment anyway, but he might possibly even agree with that privately, even if he couldn’t accept it publicly. I found benefit in keeping Dave on a separate supply from the rest of my system.
> 
> I upgraded last year from the Zenith SE to the Statement. It was a very good upgrade and the detailed attention to power supply is a big part of it.


I don't dispute that the mod changes the sound signature.
Yes Rob is an open-minded designer, but the normal Chord position is that any unapproved mods void the warranty.
Having said that, this thread is almost 5 years old, so owners of the early batches of DAVE, may not be too troubled by losing their remaining few months of warranty. All part of the risk:benefit equation for them to weigh up.


----------



## Malcyg (Feb 23, 2020)

miketlse said:


> I don't dispute that the mod changes the sound signature.
> Yes Rob is an open-minded designer, but the normal Chord position is that any unapproved mods void the warranty.



Yes, you are right of course and I wouldn’t expect many to even consider this mod. However, Dave is coming up 5 years old now, so many warranties are long gone. My bet is that the Dave 2, whenever that emerges, will have a totally different power supply arrangement.

Ah, you amended your post. So Dave is 5 years warranty - more than I expected and good to know. Thanks.


----------



## Clive101

anygreg said:


> yeah saw that, not had fantastic dealings with nintronics to be fair, last contact I had with them took ages to reply, but when they finally did, boy did they try to push the sale. When spending that amount of cash I’d rather deal direct with a company that allows some breathing room for me to find out if its what I want, then and after that we can negotiate a good, better deal Etc.. never want to feel rushed especially with a huge outlay like this.


Sorry to hear about your experience with Nintronics, my experience was completely different. Spent several hours demoing the Aries Cerat Genus with and without some of my own equipment. A pleasure to deal with and I did not purchase the Genus no hard sell the whole experience was like two audiophiles having a listening session. I phoned several days later to say I would not be making a purchase and that was it. I would use them again no hesitation.


----------



## Malcyg

Clive101 said:


> Sorry to hear about your experience with Nintronics, my experience was completely different. Spent several hours demoing the Aries Cerat Genus with and without some of my own equipment. A pleasure to deal with and I did not purchase the Genus no hard sell the whole experience was like two audiophiles having a listening session. I phoned several days later to say I would not be making a purchase and that was it. I would use them again no hesitation.



I can only agree with this Clive. One of the posts about Nintronics, which may have been intended as a joke, is defamatory and I am surprised that it still stands on the forum. I don’t know Nintronics and have never visited their store, but I contacted them online just after the Dave had come out nearly 5 years ago and was in high demand. They sent me a unit for home trial and I was never under any pressure whatsoever. I decided to buy a Dave and they gave me a very fair p/ex on my DSX1000. Then, when it transpired that my Dave would be some while because Chord were having problems keeping up with demand, Nintronics allowed me to keep the trial Dave until mine was delivered. How could you ask for more?

With that kind of service, I naturally went back to them when the Blu II came out and, again, they sent me a unit for trial at home. No money up front, no demands. I bought one and again got a very fair p/ex on my CD transport. So I bought my Mojo, Poly and a Hugo 2 from them as well when they came out. Just recently, they sent me over £12,000 worth of cables to try in my system. Again, no pressure on how long I had them, no money up front and no pressure to purchase.

To suggest in public forum that they are borderline bankrupt and money launderers is quite outrageous, even if intended as a joke. Perhaps the quality of service is related to the quality of the customer?


----------



## miketlse

Malcyg said:


> Yes, you are right of course and I wouldn’t expect many to even consider this mod. However, Dave is coming up 5 years old now, so many warranties are long gone. My bet is that the Dave 2, whenever that emerges, will have a totally different power supply arrangement.
> 
> Ah, you amended your post. So Dave is 5 years warranty - more than I expected and good to know. Thanks.


I thought that it was five years, but you have put a doubt in my mind.
I will check, but sorry if I have accidentally posted an inaccurate warranty period.


----------



## Malcyg

miketlse said:


> I thought that it was five years, but you have put a doubt in my mind.
> I will check, but sorry if I have accidentally posted an inaccurate warranty period.



It is 5 years Mike, I’m pretty sure you are right.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Sound Trooper said:


> So I am now waiting for the seller to send me the Dave and I have already sold my Blu Mk2 to finance it. As for my Hugo TT2, I’m kinda undecided on selling it as I might use it for my work desk. Having the Dave next to the Hugo TT2 will also allow me to compare them side by side.
> hmmm.. but it’s a bit overkill to keep 2 high end dacs right?



Having heard and been very impressed with the TT2, I'd say you'd sell it after hearing it side-by-side with the DAVE after a week or so...the differences are quite profound.


----------



## Triode User

Sound Trooper said:


> So I am now waiting for the seller to send me the Dave and I have already sold my Blu Mk2 to finance it. As for my Hugo TT2, I’m kinda undecided on selling it as I might use it for my work desk. Having the Dave next to the Hugo TT2 will also allow me to compare them side by side.
> hmmm.. but it’s a bit overkill to keep 2 high end dacs right?



Yes, so sell the TT2 and get an Mscaler for the Dave.  If you buy a second hand MScaler you should be able to buy it cheaper than you can sell the TT2.


----------



## Sound Trooper

MacedonianHero said:


> Having heard and been very impressed with the TT2, I'd say you'd sell it after hearing it side-by-side with the DAVE after a week or so...the differences are quite profound.





Triode User said:


> Yes, so sell the TT2 and get an Mscaler for the Dave.  If you buy a second hand MScaler you should be able to buy it cheaper than you can sell the TT2.



Oh Gosh! You guys are not making things any easier....


----------



## F208Frank

MacedonianHero said:


> Having heard and been very impressed with the TT2, I'd say you'd sell it after hearing it side-by-side with the DAVE after a week or so...the differences are quite profound.


It was actually Macedonian who convinced me to get the DAVE. I trusted his opinion and am waiting for mine. Quite excited.


----------



## Ciggavelli

I moved from a TT2/Mscal to a Dave/Mscal. My original Dave had an issue and I couldn’t use my Mscaler. I preferred a solo DAVE over the TT2/Mscal. Now I can use my Mscaler with my loaner DAVE, and it’s amazing. A DAVE is the way to go


----------



## F208Frank (Feb 24, 2020)

Still patiently waiting... sigh.


----------



## ekfc63

F208Frank said:


> Still patiently waiting... sigh.




Ooh you're in for a treat. You have many hours rifling through your music collection marveling at the sound to look forward to (after patient burn in of course!).


----------



## musickid (Feb 24, 2020)

I'm using an oppo pm1 headphone with a £400 pure silver headphone cable from artisan cables from the Isle of Wight. Does everyone think i would get a real and profound improvement by trading my TT2 for a Dave and using my pm1 headphone with my mscaler and a new Dave. So not diminishing returns here but a big improvement. Or should i use that money to buy a TOTL headphone to compliment my pm1 to use with my mTT2. There would probably be about a year or longer till i could spend again on audio. I have one big spend a year on audio. Imagine the question i pose here as being in some ways hypothetical and also as one concerning a final end game solution without me being able to try first. Depending on my finances it could be a reality one way or the other sooner rather than later.


----------



## musickid

Amber your query the mscaler takes inputs up to 32 bits:

*PCM support*: 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz, 192kHz, 358.8kHz, 384kHz, 705.6 and 768kHz – *16 to 32bit*


----------



## Lucky87

ekfc63 said:


> Ooh you're in for a treat. You have many hours rifling through your music collection marveling at the sound to look forward to (after patient burn in of course!).



I was very surprised how effortless the Dave was with the music. I went from the TT2 for about 15 minutes then added the TT2/M Scaler and I was wow this is really good and there is no way the stand alone Dave will beat this combo. I was wrong big time on that..   
Also Going to audition the Blu2 and see how it sounds then back to the M Scaler if all goes well I will be buying one of them to add to the Dave.

What will be the burn in time for the Dave?


----------



## musickid

in what way did dave excel over the mscaled TT2?


----------



## Ciggavelli

musickid said:


> in what way did dave excel over the mscaled TT2?


Bass detail.  The "bass texture" is very apparent.  The TT2 can doesn't come close to the bass detail you get from the DAVE


----------



## Lucky87

musickid said:


> in what way did dave excel over the mscaled TT2?


For me I found the Dave just was effortlessly digging into the music pulling it apart and hearing the same song for the very first time. Now don't get me wrong I still liked the TT2/M Scaler combo which felt more impact-full, faster but just lacked the texture the Dave was projecting.


----------



## musickid (Feb 24, 2020)

will you settle for a solo dave in the long run or add an mscaler later? could you live indefinitely just with a solo dave? £12K for mDave is really pushing it. lol

The only way i could justify trading in my TT2/HMS for a dave would be to settle down with a solo dave and bar myself from adding an mscaler in the future. i have to draw a line somewhere for my own personal reasons/situation.

when you say texture of dave what is this texture that only dave can do? i've briefly heard dave in the past here and there at a couple of dealers. not long enough to form an accurate impression though.


----------



## musickid

Jon Batiste on piano live at the Village Vanguard. Sounds thunderous on mTT2.


----------



## ekfc63 (Feb 24, 2020)

musickid said:


> will you settle for a solo dave in the long run or add an mscaler later? could you live indefinitely just with a solo dave? £12K for mDave is really pushing it. lol
> 
> The only way i could justify trading in my TT2/HMS for a dave would be to settle down with a solo dave and bar myself from adding an mscaler in the future. i have to draw a line somewhere for my own personal reasons/situation.
> 
> when you say texture of dave what is this texture that only dave can do? i've briefly heard dave in the past here and there at a couple of dealers. not long enough to form an accurate impression though.




The only way to really know is to try the TT2/MSc and Dave side by side for however long it takes for you to decide.   A used Dave might enable you to keep the MScaler.   That’s what I did.


----------



## Ciggavelli

musickid said:


> will you settle for a solo dave in the long run or add an mscaler later? could you live indefinitely just with a solo dave? £12K for mDave is really pushing it. lol
> 
> The only way i could justify trading in my TT2/HMS for a dave would be to settle down with a solo dave and bar myself from adding an mscaler in the future. i have to draw a line somewhere for my own personal reasons/situation.
> 
> when you say texture of dave what is this texture that only dave can do? i've briefly heard dave in the past here and there at a couple of dealers. not long enough to form an accurate impression though.


I was without my M-Scaler for a couple weeks with my initial DAVE.  Without the M-scaler, I could definitely notice the "digital" sound. Things sounded more disjointed, I guess.  After a couple of days, I got used to it.  The solo DAVE has more detail than the TT2, M-scaled or not.  It's just that digital sound you get without having an M-Scaler. 

A benefit of getting the DAVE though, is that you can add an M-scaler later to make the sound that much better.  It's a good upgrade path.


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## PhenixS1970 (Feb 25, 2020)

Anyone has experience with the Shunyata Venom NR-V12 power cord on DAVE?  Thanks in advance for any feedback.


----------



## hmartin

On the topic of power to dave/hms, anyone have experience with ”Torus power tot mini ce”?


----------



## Clive101

hmartin said:


> On the topic of power to dave/hms, anyone have experience with ”Torus power tot mini ce”?



Yes I have the 16 amp AVR2 HiFi and TOT AVR Headphone. 
I have not done A B with and without Dave.
Just whole system lower noise floor with Torus and voltage controlled with the AVR model.
I can do A B with Dave if you like ?


----------



## tunes

PhenixS1970 said:


> Anyone has experience with the Shunyata Venom NR-V12 power cord on DAVE?  Thanks in advance for any feedback.


It’s interesting that the DAVE plus or minus the HMS gets such rave reviews on this site and with all the R & D that went into the software, that CHORD would put less finesse into the stock power supply and power cord.  Does the designer actually listen to results of years of hard work and testing using anything other than the stock power cord and power supply?  If the power supply they chose to implement is really that noisy with RFI generation, wouldn’t that be foolish?  So I think that when individuals try to teak what is already better than anything even close to the price point of the DAVE HMS with often hyped expensive after market add-ons, I become skeptical without a rigorous A to B comparison.   Even then, without nearly instantaneous comparisons at the same volume with the same recording, it can be difficult to discern any real, ongoing across the board refinement or more satisfying coloration or distortion of the original recording.  Even when several users report improvement, only by personal audition with adequate listening time for brain habituation can one judge a subjective improvement.  Even taking a break away from DAVE for a week or two or using a brain modifier like alcohol or weed may drastically alter the experience for some. Sorry about philosophical rambling but tweaking can become an expensive obsession with no limits.  If it’s fun and satisfying to make this kind of investment, I am happy just to learn what others have discovered for themselves......vanilla, chocolate, or pecan ?


----------



## hmartin

Clive101 said:


> Yes I have the 16 amp AVR2 HiFi and TOT AVR Headphone.
> I have not done A B with and without Dave.
> Just whole system lower noise floor with Torus and voltage controlled with the AVR model.
> I can do A B with Dave if you like ?


My idea is to add the tot mini to dave/hms to isolate noise from dave/hms going to the power amps. The is because I found big improvement moving dave/hms away from the same power line as the left mono amp to a different one. Before the left channel sounded ”worse” than the right that was already on a seperate power line.

If that makes sense


----------



## STR-1 (Feb 25, 2020)

PhenixS1970 said:


> Anyone has experience with the Shunyata Venom NR-V12 power cord on DAVE?  Thanks in advance for any feedback.


How are you powering the DAVE at the moment?  What power cable?  Power cable straight into a wall socket, or using some kind of conditioning?


----------



## PhenixS1970

STR-1 said:


> How are you powering the DAVE at the moment?  What power cable?  Power cable straight into a wall socket, or using some kind of conditioning?



Standard power cord into a "Essential Audio Tools Mains Multiplier 5" (multiple socket), 2/5 of the sockets have filtering but haven't used these yet.


----------



## STR-1

PhenixS1970 said:


> Standard power cord into a "Essential Audio Tools Mains Multiplier 5" (multiple socket), 2/5 of the sockets have filtering but haven't used these yet.


I have previous generation Alpha HC and Venom HC cables, as well as Alpha NR and Venom NR-V10 cables.  I had both Venom NR-V12 and NR-V10 on loan to compare, and chose the V10 only because its larger gauge wire gave a slightly fuller and more authoritative sound.  The two cables (both filtered) were essentially the same in all other respects.  Both cables would deliver a significantly improved sound compared to stock cable when plugged into an unfiltered power point.  The sound would be cleaner, a little darker, a little fuller and more authoritative.  Less certain is whether additional filtering/conditioning would deliver changes that you would perceive as further improvements. 

I have been using the Alpha HC with my DAVE, but will be having another look at that now that I have freed up the Alpha NR by replacing it as the Statement’s power cable with a Chord Sarum T cable.


----------



## PhenixS1970

STR-1 said:


> I have previous generation Alpha HC and Venom HC cables, as well as Alpha NR and Venom NR-V10 cables.  I had both Venom NR-V12 and NR-V10 on loan to compare, and chose the V10 only because its larger gauge wire gave a slightly fuller and more authoritative sound.  The two cables (both filtered) were essentially the same in all other respects.  Both cables would deliver a significantly improved sound compared to stock cable when plugged into an unfiltered power point.  The sound would be cleaner, a little darker, a little fuller and more authoritative.  Less certain is whether additional filtering/conditioning would deliver changes that you would perceive as further improvements.
> 
> I have been using the Alpha HC with my DAVE, but will be having another look at that now that I have freed up the Alpha NR by replacing it as the Statement’s power cable with a Chord Sarum T cable.



Thank you very much for your elaborate reply, STR-1.  I'm going to try to get my hands on a loaner .


----------



## Sound Trooper

I am still patiently waiting for my new *used Dave to arrive and it would probably take another week of waiting. Nevertheless, as they all say, patience is a virtue.

In anticipation of the Dave's arrival, I have also traded in the Hugo TT2 for a ............... Hugo2 (shock & horror!!) and I have 3 reasons for this:
1) To simplify my desktop system. The Hugo2 is a very capable dac/amp and I thoroughly enjoyed it when I owned it. It's smallish size also means it takes up less precious space on my work desk. Furthermore I can bring the Hugo2 around when I travel.
2) Pairing with 2go. This all-in-one combination makes it highly interesting for me as well. However seeing the feedback of early poly adopters makes me want to wait a bit more before jumping in. Furthermore, I still have my Xduoo X10T II to pair with the Hugo2 for the time being. 
3) To free up some cash. I still have an eye on the Hugo M-scaler and will spring for a used unit if it is available. However, failing which, I will most likely get a new unit at the end of 2020.

And so it is, my Chord journey so far. Chopping & changing stuff is fun, but I can't wait to settle down for the more important music stuff...


----------



## TheAttorney

STR-1 said:


> I have been using the Alpha HC with my DAVE, but will be having another look at that now that I have freed up the Alpha NR by replacing it as the Statement’s power cable with a Chord Sarum T cable.



I had an Alpha NR and smaller brother Delta NR on loan to compare against my existing Clearer Audio (£400-ish) into DAVE.
I wasn't sure the Delta was a significant enough improvement over existing, but the Alpha was, so I bought it.
However, it's rather pricey, and I feel that I've had better bang for buck with my BNC and USB cable upgrades.

There's rumour of a V2 Alpha NR on the horizon, but I suppose there's always a new version on the horizon somewhere.


----------



## tunes

I wonder if the Schiit LOKI HIGH QUALITY TONE CONTROL will enable bass improvement when running the SR1a off the JOT-R with DAVE HMS as the source.  Will it work if routed between the output of my DAVE/HMS and the amp? Can I use the remote volume controller on the DAVE to control head speaker volume instead of the JOT-R? If the LOKI is in the chain, with all EQ flat, will it introduce any noise or coloration to the signal?  Is there any other method to add EQ to SR1a via DAVE HMS?  Will there be EQ in the software app for the 2GO/2YU?


----------



## JaZZ

tunes said:


> I wonder if the Schiit LOKI HIGH QUALITY TONE CONTROL will enable bass improvement when running the SR1a off the JOT-R with DAVE HMS as the source.  Will it work if routed between the output of my DAVE/HMS and the amp? Can I use the remote volume controller on the DAVE to control head speaker volume instead of the JOT-R? If the LOKI is in the chain, with all EQ flat, will it introduce any noise or coloration to the signal?  Is there any other method to add EQ to SR1a via DAVE HMS?  Will there be EQ in the software app for the 2GO/2YU?


Equalizing in the analogue domain is a bad idea – you'd add a bunch of electronics components to the signal path, and each of them has a detrimental impact. Use your software player for equalizing in the digital domain, it is perfectly suitable for this task. I once had a well-respected semi-professional analogue equalizer and couldn't use it for listening to music due to the massive loss of transparency it caused, so it just served for crossover-network tuning during my speaker-building phase. 

Sub-bass enhancement is easy, but not the only function it can fulfill. BTW, the mentioned loss of transparency with digital equalizers is an unfounded myth. I'm into equalizing since a few years now and never detected such a thing, quite the opposite: Removing peaks and dips in fact enhances transparency, as respective masking effects are eliminated. Also consider that the music you listen to has been DSPed more than once during the recording process, so it's absurd to think that it's the final DSP during playback that does the harm.


----------



## strojo

For the Roon users out there...what are you using to feed your Dave and how is it connected?  Up to this point, I've been using DAC's that have built-in Roon endpoint network ports.


----------



## STR-1

TheAttorney said:


> I had an Alpha NR and smaller brother Delta NR on loan to compare against my existing Clearer Audio (£400-ish) into DAVE.
> I wasn't sure the Delta was a significant enough improvement over existing, but the Alpha was, so I bought it.
> However, it's rather pricey, and I feel that I've had better bang for buck with my BNC and USB cable upgrades.
> 
> There's rumour of a V2 Alpha NR on the horizon, but I suppose there's always a new version on the horizon somewhere.


The Alpha NR is a good cable (I have the original version of this cable before the internal geometry of the UK cable was slightly changed and the fuse upgraded to an AMR Gold last summer) and I have found it in the past to be slightly better than the Alpha HC with the DAVE, but I wanted to use my best cable with the source (Innuos Statement).  

When I receive my Sarum T, and it is fully run-in, I will be able to focus again on the DAVE's power cable.  I still expect to find the Alpha NR to be better than the Alpha HC, but with my system now cleaner than it was the last time I tried this comparison I want to hear whether the filtering with these Shunyata cables is still needed.  As I said previously, you can have too much filtering, and these cables are already plugged into a Shunyata Venom UK6 distribution block, which has its own filtering.  I had tried an Alpha NR feeder cable in the UK6 but found that additional filtering to affect dynamics and energy, so I settled for an unfiltered Alpha EF cable. 

I had heard version 2 of these Shunyata power cables was planned for later this year but I now understand that that is no longer certain given various Corvid 19 supply chain issues.


----------



## jcn3

strojo said:


> For the Roon users out there...what are you using to feed your Dave and how is it connected?  Up to this point, I've been using DAC's that have built-in Roon endpoint network ports.



Does your current endpoint have usb out? If so, have you tried that via usb to your dave?


----------



## strojo

jcn3 said:


> Does your current endpoint have usb out? If so, have you tried that via usb to your dave?



It doesn't have USB out as it's integrated into a DAC (Simaudio).  I don't own the DAVE yet either, so I'm working on thinking through a config.


----------



## MacedonianHero

F208Frank said:


> It was actually Macedonian who convinced me to get the DAVE. I trusted his opinion and am waiting for mine. Quite excited.



You will NOT be disappointed! I'm done with DACs...I haven't looked for anything new since it arrived 2 years ago! Congratulations!


----------



## Foxman50

STR-1 said:


> you can have too much filtering, and these cables are already plugged into a Shunyata Venom UK6 distribution block, which has its own filtering.  I had tried an Alpha NR feeder cable in the UK6 but found that additional filtering to affect dynamics and energy


I tried the exact same setup on DAVE with the exact same outcome. It was not a pleasant outcome and one i was not expecting.


----------



## iDesign

In my experience High Fidelity Cables mains cables and power conditioning products are excellent. Sound Application (and BPT now shuttered) also make the very best power conditioners.


----------



## Triode User

Foxman50 said:


> I tried the exact same setup on DAVE with the exact same outcome. It was not a pleasant outcome and one i was not expecting.



Rob Watts has previously mentioned that he selected the Dave power supply partly because of its very low output impedance. Perhaps the moral of trying too much filtering is that there are other factors affecting the sound of the Dave in relation to its power and fiddling can perhaps have unforeseen consequences.


----------



## TheAttorney (Feb 27, 2020)

STR-1 said:


> As I said previously, you can have too much filtering, and these cables are already plugged into a Shunyata Venom UK6 distribution block, which has its own filtering.  I had tried an Alpha NR feeder cable in the UK6 but found that additional filtering to affect dynamics and energy, so I settled for an unfiltered Alpha EF cable.



I find it strange that one can have too much filtering on a 50/60hz cable. My Alpha NR (and all other power cords) are connected to an Audience TSSOX power conditioner, and there was no loss in dynamics/energy when replacing my (mostly unfiltered) Clearer Audio cord with the heavily filtered NR. Maybe because the Audience uses a different (capacitor-based) filter design to Shunyata's, so the two designs appear to be complimentary rather than destructive.

My hifi rack's location prevents me from trying the NR directly connected to wall socket, but in a previous situation (without the NR), removing the Audience conditioner was a bad move, so everything now just goes into it without further thought.

@Triode User, Rob is justifiably proud of his designs, as are all good designers. But we mess around with these things because we can demonstrate, at least to ourselves, that further improvements are possible. Rob also doesn't think that fancy BNC cables are necessary, and look where that's got us!


----------



## anygreg (Feb 27, 2020)

Triode User said:


> But your best plan is to go to Bristol and talk to the nice Chord chaps and then seek out a dealer that you can bully cajole into giving you a good deal on a Dave!



well that went really well. Sat in on the Chord demo (always a busy room, fantastic bunch of guys) of the Dave/M on the new ultima stereo amps (stunning) on Harbeths (I think) and it was all there, without a shadow of a doubt, I swear I can tell when the DAVE/M combo is in any system, even blind folded. It’s like the whole recording has an air all around it, beautiful, addictive, once you’ve heard it, there’s no going back that’s for sure. They even played some tunes from the 80’s which I’d heard played to death back in the day, and considering my ears are now 30ish years older, the track (Tanita Tikaram‘s twist in my sobriety) never sounded so bloody good! You could hear the grain in her voice, absolutely incredible! No doubt whatsoever about this combo being nothing short of outstanding.

I then popped into Rega ( again another packed room/s, enthusiastic guys who believe in their products, great chats and very informative )  , and was again blown away by the new Planar turntables (and I’m not a turntable guy) I do have a lot of vinyl, but never play it due to time, and that’s what got me thinking, I need to make more time for music, more importantly make more time for myself to de stress, vinyl is most definitely the perfect excuse. Which is why I pulled the trigger on the new P10. The Dave will still be mine, oh yes, it will most definitely be mine, but as I dont have any way of playing my vinyl it made more sense to fill that void!

I was also mega impressed with Hegel, awesome kit, nice chaps as well, the sound of their kit certainly works for me, another player now on my radar for sure.


----------



## Triode User

anygreg said:


> well that went really well. Sat in on the Chord demo (always a busy room, fantastic bunch of guys) of the Dave/M on the new ultimate stereo amps (stunning) on Harbeths (I think) and it was all there, without a shadow of a doubt, I swear I could tell when the DAVE/M combo is in any system, even blind folded. It’s like the whole recording has an air all around it, beautiful, addictive, once you’ve heard it, there’s going back that’s for sure. They even played some tunes from the 80’s which I’d heard played to death back in the day, and considering my ears are now 30ish years older, the track (Tanita Tikaram‘s twist in my sobriety) never sounded so bloody good! You could hear the grain in her voice, absolutely incredible! No doubt whatsoever about this combo being nothing short of outstanding.
> 
> I then popped into Rega ( again another packed room/s, enthusiastic guys who believe in their products, great chats and very informative )  , and was again blown away by the new Planar turntables (and I’m not a turntable guy) I do have a lot of vinyl, but never play it due to time, and that’s what got me thinking, I need to make more time for music, more importantly make more time for myself to de stress, vinyl is most definitely the perfect excuse. Which is why I pulled the trigger on the new P10. The Dave will still be mine, oh yes, it will most definitely be mine, but as I dont have any way of playing my vinyl it made more sense to fill that void!
> 
> I was also mega impressed with Hegel, awesome kit, nice chaps as well, the sound of their kit certainly works for me, another player now on my radar for sure.



Oh, someone had fun!!


----------



## tunes

JaZZ said:


> Equalizing in the analogue domain is a bad idea – you'd add a bunch of electronics components to the signal path, and each of them has a detrimental impact. Use your software player for equalizing in the digital domain, it is perfectly suitable for this task. I once had a well-respected semi-professional analogue equalizer and couldn't use it for listening to music due to the massive loss of transparency it caused, so it just served for crossover-network tuning during my speaker-building phase.
> 
> Sub-bass enhancement is easy, but not the only function it can fulfill. BTW, the mentioned loss of transparency with digital equalizers is an unfounded myth. I'm into equalizing since a few years now and never detected such a thing, quite the opposite: Removing peaks and dips in fact enhances transparency, as respective masking effects are eliminated. Also consider that the music you listen to has been DSPed more than once during the recording process, so it's absurd to think that it's the final DSP during playback that does the harm.


If that is the case then why is there even a product like the LOKI?   So I use a DAP, either the  iBasso 220 or the Questyle QPR1 via optical out to send flac files over to DAVE/HMS.  So there is an equalizer built into the DAP’s software and is that what I should use to boost bass response?  Will it be as effective as the LOKI between the DAVE and headphone amplifier?


----------



## JaZZ

tunes said:


> If that is the case then why is there even a product like the LOKI?


That is the question. In my book it is a needless product for 98% of the music listeners – those with a digital source.



> So I use a DAP, either the iBasso 220 or the Questyle QPR1, via optical out to send flac files over to DAVE/HMS. So there is an equalizer built into the DAP’s software and is that what I should use to boost bass response? Will it be as effective as the LOKI between the DAVE and headphone amplifier?


Yes, absolutely! Of course it depends on the available frequency bands; 20 Hz is better than 31 Hz as the lowest frequency band, but the latter will still work. It's what my FiiO players offer (which I just use for IEMs these days – with only decreasing adjustments as far as possible).


----------



## PhenixS1970

I added a few tweaks to my DAVE & M-Scaler combi:

1. I put both on IsoAcoustics Orea Graphite feet  (raises the gear 3cm up on the shelf and it looks nice, lol)
2. Placed a “Furutech Signal Booster L” under the dual BNC out on the M-Scaler (possible due to 1). I’m currently using Requisite Audio dual BNC cables and despite that these give an amazing soundstage they are a bit brighter than neutral (see Audiobacon review).  Harshness in the chain  is exposed and amplified.  Well....this one Booster virtually eliminated the present harshness.  Maybe something to try as an alternative to messing around with ferrites ? (that word again lol).

Coming Monday I’ll receive my (new) Cleareraudio silver reference Optimus dual BNC cables.  Let’s see how that works out.


----------



## Christer

TheAttorney said:


> I find it strange that one can have too much filtering on a 50/60hz cable. My Alpha NR (and all other power cords) are connected to an Audience TSSOX power conditioner, and there was no loss in dynamics/energy when replacing my (mostly unfiltered) Clearer Audio cord with the heavily filtered NR. Maybe because the Audience uses a different (capacitor-based) filter design to Shunyata's, so the two designs appear to be complimentary rather than destructive.
> 
> My hifi rack's location prevents me from trying the NR directly connected to wall socket, but in a previous situation (without the NR), removing the Audience conditioner was a bad move, so everything now just goes into it without further thought.
> 
> @Triode User, Rob is justifiably proud of his designs, as are all good designers. But we mess around with these things because we can demonstrate, at least to ourselves, that further improvements are possible. Rob also doesn't think that fancy BNC cables are necessary, and look where that's got us!




But you are aware that Rob also uses fancy BNC cables at home, aren't you.
He said so here recently.

And as someone who left his fancy for this short budget flight trip "too heavy," BNC cables back home while travelling to Thailand for a month, I can firmly say that I DO miss mine.

I don't know what source or sources of RFI  are the culprits. But I know that where I am I can choose between 20-30 different WIFI channels beaming all the time when I open WIFI on my mbp laptop. And I would not be surprised if those and/or the fridge and the telly or other beaming sources are what's making  my HMS/Qutest/Mbp here is not as clean and realistic as I am used to hearing it with fancy BNC cables at home.

The supplied BNCs are NOT as good as my fancy BNCs and I can hear the difference quite easily both at home and even more so,here in Thailand although I am in a separate house with a great sea and jungle view and  with no really very close neighbours.
I can run both my mbp and Qutest on battery. But I have to run my HMS on Thai electricity which in itself could be part of the less than stellar SQ I now have.

Cheers CC


----------



## iDesign (Mar 4, 2020)

Christer said:


> But you are aware that Rob also uses fancy BNC cables at home, aren't you.
> He said so here recently.
> 
> And as someone who left his fancy for this short budget flight trip "too heavy," BNC cables back home while travelling to Thailand for a month, I can firmly say that I DO miss mine.
> ...


Rob Watts has used the Pro Signal RG59 2m cables that are $3.88 combined with clip on Wurth ferrites with the Dave and Blu Mk2. More recently he has tested homemade cables with solid core ferrites with the Hugo M Scaler. Either route is anything but fancy.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hug...official-thread.885042/page-642#post-15330117


----------



## hmartin (Mar 1, 2020)

As I mentioned previously I wondered if Dave is sensitive to DC on mains, so I got a pair of Supra DC-blockers to test and see if it makes a difference with Dave. In conclusion the difference, if any, is too small to be relevant. 

I am still using it and will see what happens when I remove it but currently I cannot say there is any significant difference. I also tried the blockers with my amps and there the difference was clear, but to the worse. the sound became harder, more treble grain and less depth. But this is probably dependent on the amount of DC etc etc so you might get different results than me.


----------



## tunes

Christer said:


> But you are aware that Rob also uses fancy BNC cables at home, aren't you.
> He said so here recently.
> 
> 
> ...


Can someone tell us exactly which BNC cables Bob Watts prefers for his home gear?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I don’t know if any of you guys have been tempted to change your fuses for better ones but last year I tried the Synergistic Research Blue fuses and was blown away by them (sorry for the pun). Anyway, this year I tried a single Orange fuse in my Innuos Statement and incredibly even before Burn-in it improved dynamics, warmth, weight and solidity of percussive instruments, resolution, imaging placement and layering, timbral balance and .......more than anything - Noise Floor. (Maybe it was already run-in) This latter improvement was imo akin to adding a new power conditioning unit it was so clean. All this from a single fuse in my Innuos Statement. Crazy I know. 

I subsequently replaced 5 plug fuses (that were previously SR Blue) for the new Orange fuses and I haven’t looked back post burn-in. Even my wife noticed the difference tonight listening from another part of the house. It is that obvious.

What this experience has shown me is that sometimes simple tweaks can achieve more than replacing very expensive components. I am convinced now that ordinary fuses skew timbral balance, add noise and haze, blur bass and general focus, add edginess and generally relegate the overall SQ of a system. Yes in this case I spent almost £1k on fuses yikes! ......and yes I could return them within 30 days but that isn’t going to happen. It’s an absolute no-brainier upgrade imo for anybody looking to lower their noise floor.

hope you didn’t mind me sharing my experience on the thread.

*Note: SR fuses are directional. So make sure you know the right direction to get the desired result if you try them.*


----------



## Thenewguy007

My opinion on the SR Blue fuse mirrored* bazelio *test*.*

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/audiophile-fuses.453/page-31#post-511944

When I tried it, it gave a darker, warmer tone, didn't like it over the stock fuses.


----------



## miketlse

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I don’t know if any of you guys have been tempted to change your fuses for better ones but last year I tried the Synergistic Research Blue fuses and was blown away by them (sorry for the pun). Anyway, this year I tried a single Orange fuse in my Innuos Statement and incredibly even before Burn-in it improved dynamics, warmth, weight and solidity of percussive instruments, resolution, imaging placement and layering, timbral balance and .......more than anything - Noise Floor. (Maybe it was already run-in) This latter improvement was imo akin to adding a new power conditioning unit it was so clean. All this from a single fuse in my Innuos Statement. Crazy I know.
> 
> I subsequently replaced 5 plug fuses (that were previously SR Blue) for the new Orange fuses and I haven’t looked back post burn-in. Even my wife noticed the difference tonight listening from another part of the house. It is that obvious.
> 
> ...


I am not disputing that you hear a difference.
However I think you need to explain how a fuse placed in the alternating current side of the power supply, can be directional.


----------



## Clive101

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I don’t know if any of you guys have been tempted to change your fuses for better ones but last year I tried the Synergistic Research Blue fuses and was blown away by them (sorry for the pun). Anyway, this year I tried a single Orange fuse in my Innuos Statement and incredibly even before Burn-in it improved dynamics, warmth, weight and solidity of percussive instruments, resolution, imaging placement and layering, timbral balance and .......more than anything - Noise Floor. (Maybe it was already run-in) This latter improvement was imo akin to adding a new power conditioning unit it was so clean. All this from a single fuse in my Innuos Statement. Crazy I know.
> 
> I subsequently replaced 5 plug fuses (that were previously SR Blue) for the new Orange fuses and I haven’t looked back post burn-in. Even my wife noticed the difference tonight listening from another part of the house. It is that obvious.
> 
> ...



I have had the blue for one year I found them to be bright but very clear tried the orange seemed to suck the midrange.
I am trying the orange again but make no doubt, fuses make a difference, personal choice YMMV.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I have just tried the fuses the other way round (which was a tedious exercise) and the explanations given for not liking them I would pretty much describe as the sound when they are the wrong way round in my system. When the fuses are fitted in the correct direction they are warm, musical, not edgy, full in the mid, very dynamic and everything else I described in my earlier post. Of course I realise different systems can sound different but that is my experience in my system.


----------



## STR-1

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I have just tried the fuses the other way round (which was a tedious exercise) and the explanations given for not liking them I would pretty much describe as the sound when they are the wrong way round in my system. When the fuses are fitted in the correct direction they are warm, musical, not edgy, full in the mid, very dynamic and everything else I described in my earlier post. Of course I realise different systems can sound different but that is my experience in my system.


Did the fuse, when reinserted correctly, immediately revert back to the sound signature you liked?  The reason I am asking is interest in whether the benefits of burn-in depend on the exact same points of contact on the end caps again coming into contact with the fuse holder.  Is the burn-in area confined only to those points of contact, does it spread a little beyond those points, or does it encompass the whole surface area of the end caps?  Just wondering how much of a lottery comparing fuses of not too different character can be.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Mar 6, 2020)

I think I understand what you are saying. I always pay particular attention to line up the metal contacts of the plug with the metal on each end of the fuse. I did notice a slight difference difference once when they were not very aligned (my fault) on the plug which provided power to my Power amplifier. (Hope we are not talking at cross purposes.)


----------



## Sound Trooper

Well, it took 2 trips to the post office and now I finally have the Dave with me. And boy does it perform! The Dave is many magnitudes more musical than my previous Blu mk2 + hugoTT2 setup. I am really enjoying the headphone out as well, it drives my auteur, elear and LCD-3 wonderfully.


----------



## iDesign (Mar 6, 2020)

Sound Trooper said:


> Well, it took 2 trips to the post office and now I finally have the Dave with me. And boy does it perform! The Dave is many magnitudes more musical than my previous Blu mk2 + hugoTT2 setup. I am really enjoying the headphone out as well, it drives my auteur, elear and LCD-3 wonderfully.


Welcome to the end of the game.


----------



## me2621a

strojo said:


> For the Roon users out there...what are you using to feed your Dave and how is it connected?  Up to this point, I've been using DAC's that have built-in Roon endpoint network ports.



Pro-ject S2 Stream Box Ultra currently. Works well, currently use it to feed USB to my MScaler and then dual BNC to the Dave. I personally have not found major differences from USB sources as long as they are well built, I have several RPI 4s with linear power supplies that I run Roon on and they work well as well with all of my USB DACs. I also used to have an Aurelic Vega G2 (Dac), which had a Roon endpoint built into it. It worked well and sounded great, so I would assume the Aries G1 might be a great high end option, however make sure you demo it first, I have heard the USB output can be picky with certain DACs.


----------



## STR-1

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I think I understand what you are saying. I always pay particular attention to line up the metal contacts of the plug with the metal on each end of the fuse. I did notice a slight difference difference once when they were not very aligned (my fault) on the plug which provided power to my Power amplifier. (Hope we are not talking at cross purposes.)


I might be making something out of nothing.  The question in my mind is whether it is important when reinserting the fuse to not only make sure the length of the end caps are fully aligned with the fuse holder contacts for maximum contact, but also that the fuse is rotated to precisely match where it was when it burned in (given that not all of the circumference of the end caps is in contact with the fuse holder).


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

STR-1 I doubt that is a noticeable aspect of insertion. In fact alignment itself is probably only really relevant to the Power amp cable because of the sheer amount of current required for a power amp. It is amazing how little power is used for say an Innuos Statement. That said I haven't tested your theory other than the contact alignment, maybe you are right.


----------



## AndrewOld

me2621a said:


> Pro-ject S2 Stream Box Ultra currently. Works well, currently use it to feed USB to my MScaler and then dual BNC to the Dave. I personally have not found major differences from USB sources as long as they are well built, I have several RPI 4s with linear power supplies that I run Roon on and they work well as well with all of my USB DACs. I also used to have an Aurelic Vega G2 (Dac), which had a Roon endpoint built into it. It worked well and sounded great, so I would assume the Aries G1 might be a great high end option, however make sure you demo it first, I have heard the USB output can be picky with certain DACs.


I am tempted by the Stream Box Ultra - it would make my system neater. It would need to be rock solid to be worth it - how have you found it with Roon? Any other issues?


----------



## hmartin

AndrewOld said:


> I am tempted by the Stream Box Ultra - it would make my system neater. It would need to be rock solid to be worth it - how have you found it with Roon? Any other issues?


 I wonder this also, reports on bad stability and overheating has stoped me getting one, would like to move the roon server away from the listening room ....


----------



## rickles

Has anyone used the DAVE with a PS Audio Power Plant?  I’ve got a Stellar P3 coming to me soon, and am curious to
know if anyone has used this combo?  Will be with an Orpheus.


----------



## F208Frank

The power plant for me changed the sound, for me mainly vocals were starting to sound off.


----------



## Triode User

rickles said:


> Has anyone used the DAVE with a PS Audio Power Plant?  I’ve got a Stellar P3 coming to me soon, and am curious to
> know if anyone has used this combo?  Will be with an Orpheus.



I used a P10. The jury was out as far as I was concerned.


----------



## llamaluv

P12 here. I like what it does for the DAVE. Results with my speaker amp are mixed -- more clarity and separation, slightly less dynamics.


----------



## Malcyg

llamaluv said:


> P12 here. I like what it does for the DAVE. Results with my speaker amp are mixed -- more clarity and separation, slightly less dynamics.



I agree. I don’t have a P12, but have found that power supply type devices are best kept for the front end whilst Power amps work best plugged straight into the wall. This because the power supply devices are generally unable to satisfy the amps peak power demand which causes compression resulting in reduced dynamics.


----------



## Ards

P12 here, after upgrade from P5.  Never tried the DAVE without it so cannot say whether it's better or not, but in general everything in my house sounds better connected to the P12, so the DAVE was connected without much thought.


----------



## me2621a

AndrewOld said:


> I am tempted by the Stream Box Ultra - it would make my system neater. It would need to be rock solid to be worth it - how have you found it with Roon? Any other issues?





hmartin said:


> I wonder this also, reports on bad stability and overheating has stoped me getting one, would like to move the roon server away from the listening room ....



So, the Stream Box S2 Ultra Is good, not perfect. It will overheat if it does not have enough ventilation. In my system it has its own shelf in a cabinet and it is the only component other then the MScaler that generates heat in the cabinet. Stability it gets a 90%. Every once and a while it does crash when a new song plays from the Roon library, it comes back online on it’s own within about 60 seconds. This happens maybe once a week or so at most (and I listen for at least a few hours a day). I am incredibly picky about things “just working” And I am not bothered by it. All this being said though, I bought it used at a very reasonable price (about 50%) and have no issues. At its full price these few crashes may be a little harder to stomach, but then again when I had a Vega G2 it would crash every once and a while to and that was a much more expensive piece of gear.


----------



## musickid

what about the SQ?


----------



## gnomen (Mar 11, 2020)

AndrewOld said:


> I am tempted by the Stream Box Ultra - it would make my system neater. It would need to be rock solid to be worth it - how have you found it with Roon? Any other issues?


Hi Andrew
If you are considering the Project Streambox, I suggest you seriously consider the *Stack Audio Link*.  https://stackaudio.co.uk/link
Same circuit designer as the Project, but he has added a few refinements including a better clock and additional power filtering.  Along with a few other tweaks like a cast aluminium case and shock absorbing feet etc. (See the Beekhuyzen channel review).  I have been auditioning one and it is very good.  Rock solid in terms of transmission.  No dropouts.  Smooth and refined.
In my case the competition for the audition is provided by a *dCS Network Bridge*. The dCS is 5x the price, of course, and in a different league. It gives a really noticeable SQ uplift in my system. I would say, more than the Mscaler itself did. And, it opens up the soundscape to show what the Mscaler can really do, so I am getting full value from the HMS investment as well.
I'm no audio engineer, but the only way I can think a streamer makes such a large contribution is by controlling jitter in the bitstream, so re-clocking is really important, just as in a high end CD player.
In my tests I am already using Nick's excellent Wave cables, so I doubt that RFI control is a major factor.  (There was no hint of RFI edginess with the Stack Link either).  The combination of the dCS and the Wave cables is producing the best sound I have ever heard in my own sitting room -- a full, rich 3-D effect, like being at a concert.
But here's the rub: for that money I could move up from the TT2 to a Dave instead.  Decisions, decisions.  If I decided to place my big investment elsewhere in the chain than the streamer, the Stack Link would be my choice.
These findings are only for my system, in my house, with my electricity supply, and my ears.   Just hope it helps your decision making.
Robert

PS using Roon only.  Did not look at the software that came with the boxes other than to enable Roon Endpoint function


----------



## hmartin

gnomen said:


> Hi Andrew
> If you are considering the Project Streambox, I suggest you seriously consider the *Stack Audio Link*.  https://stackaudio.co.uk/link
> Same circuit designer as the Project, but he has added a few refinements including a better clock and additional power filtering.  Along with a few other tweaks like a cast aluminium case and shock absorbing feet etc. (See the Beekhuyzen channel review).  I have been auditioning one and it is very good.  Rock solid in terms of transmission.  No dropouts.  Smooth and refined.
> In my case the competition for the audition is provided by a *dCS Network Bridge*. The dCS is 5x the price, of course, and in a different league. It gives a really noticeable SQ uplift in my system. I would say, more than the Mscaler itself did. And, it opens up the soundscape to show what the Mscaler can really do, so I am getting full value from the HMS investment as well.
> ...


Which power supply are you using with the stack audio link when comparing to the dcs?


----------



## gnomen

I used the power supply provided with the Stack Link.  The developer has a new power supply in the works (and a 'Link +' upgrade to the clock in the original Link, but I did not get to audition either of these.


----------



## rickles

Had anyone noticed that high sensitivity IEM's can hiss on the DAVE's headphone output?  This seems odd to me considering I would expect the DAVE to be _dead _silent on the output.  Thoughts?


----------



## kkrazik2008

Please share with me why I should consider the DAVE.  
I am not opposed to spending on items that will prove their worth, but what about this device that justifies the $12k price? I am genuinely curious.


----------



## F208Frank (Mar 11, 2020)

I think best bet is to go demo yourself if possible. There is an overwhelmingly amount of positive reviews for it though. That is partially why I threw in my hat. I tried to stay away for the longest time, a good product is a good product.


----------



## rickles

It’s staggeringly transparent, and effortless sounding.  I haven’t heard anything like it, at any price.


----------



## iamoneagain

I’m a new Dave owner. Went from the Hugo, to Hugo 2, to Dave within a year. Tried all three with the Focal Utopia. I’d say the jump from the Hugo to the Hugo 2 is as big as it is from Hugo 2 to the Dave. 

The Dave just creates this real sense of space. It was almost too much for me to take the first day I had it. I needed a moment to adjust. It’s just that the separation, layering, textures, and space were so transparent especially with the Utopia, I almost felt overwhelmed. I gave Radiohead’s Kid A a try just to see what it could do. 

Now that I’ve had it for a week, I’m not overwhelmed by it and trying all these different songs to see what it can do. I’m just relaxing and enjoying full albums again but can still tell instantly where the improvements are. 

I haven’t heard with mscaler yet but I did give HQPlayer a listen just to see what it could do. I didn’t like it since it changed the tone from Dave’s slightly warm tone to a cold tone and vocals didn’t sound as airy. I’m going to assume this doesn’t represent how the real mscaler makes it sound.


----------



## Glossator

iamoneagain said:


> I’m a new Dave owner. Went from the Hugo, to Hugo 2, to Dave within a year. Tried all three with the Focal Utopia. I’d say the jump from the Hugo to the Hugo 2 is as big as it is from Hugo 2 to the Dave.
> 
> The Dave just creates this real sense of space. It was almost too much for me to take the first day I had it. I needed a moment to adjust. It’s just that the separation, layering, textures, and space were so transparent especially with the Utopia, I almost felt overwhelmed. I gave Radiohead’s Kid A a try just to see what it could do.
> 
> ...


You are, sort of, where I was nine months ago.    I have not heard the HQPlayer, so cannot comment.   Enjoy you DAVE!   And if you do venture to a Mscaler do try to hear it RFI managed - because the Msclaer/DAVE combination with RFI tamed is quite amazing.[/QUOTE]


----------



## iamoneagain

Oh I take back what I said about being overwhelmed. Just checking out Qobuz’s new releases and listening to Deap Lips. Collaboration between Deap Vally and Flaming Lips. When the crazy distorted chorus kicks in, my head spins. All sounds surround you. It’s a good kind of overwhelming. It’s sort of the feeling of someone sneaking up on you. The sounds jump out at you.


----------



## Lucky87 (Mar 13, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> Oh I take back what I said about being overwhelmed. Just checking out Qobuz’s new releases and listening to Deap Lips. Collaboration between Deap Vally and Flaming Lips. When the crazy distorted chorus kicks in, my head spins. All sounds surround you. It’s a good kind of overwhelming. It’s sort of the feeling of someone sneaking up on you. The sounds jump out at you.


Oh yeah specially with the Utopia‘s they are kinda of in your face at times.  When I went to demo I brought my Utopia and Meze Empyrean’s so I can listen and still get the detail just in a more polite way I highly recommend them for this music. And more surprisingly you will be able to go higher volumes without any fatigue.


----------



## musickid

anyone using oppo pm1 with dave?


----------



## F208Frank

Little worried about the DAVE 2 possibly coming out soon as many have said it already has been 5 years since it came out, I just bought the DAVE recent so... a little worried. 1st world problems.


----------



## musickid

a definite no..


----------



## F208Frank

No as in DAVE 2 will not be coming out soon?


----------



## F208Frank

It doesn't matter as I am sure the DAVE is amazing already, just one of those annoying things when you grab new gear and suddenly better new gear comes out when you paid TOTL pricing already.


----------



## musickid

no upcoming dave2 its official. nothing to worry about.


----------



## Triode User

F208Frank said:


> No as in DAVE 2 will not be coming out soon?



Rob Watts has confirmed on here not long ago that it is not even on his to do list.


----------



## Cafone

Hi guys, need some advice on driving speakers directly with Dave. I demoed the Cube Audio Nenuphars by hooking them up straight to Dave's RCA outs. It sounded amazing and it looks like it can go loud enough. I'm just not sure though how far you can push Dave's volume given that the speakers are 6 Ohm? Does the same rule of thumb of you being able to go up to +3dB still apply? For what it's worth, I didn't dare to go higher than -7dB and it was definitely adequate (also in the low bass region!), even for a very quiet classical recording. I'd just like to know how far you can go, what the risks are and what signs you need to look out for.

@romaz, @ray-dude: I hope you don't mind I tag you in this post, since you both have posted on this subject before.


----------



## HeeBroG (Mar 14, 2020)

Cafone said:


> Hi guys, need some advice on driving speakers directly with Dave. I demoed the Cube Audio Nenuphars by hooking them up straight to Dave's RCA outs. It sounded amazing and it looks like it can go loud enough. I'm just not sure though how far you can push Dave's volume given that the speakers are 6 Ohm? Does the same rule of thumb of you being able to go up to +3dB still apply? For what it's worth, I didn't dare to go higher than -7dB and it was definitely adequate (also in the low bass region!), even for a very quiet classical recording. I'd just like to know how far you can go, what the risks are and what signs you need to look out for.
> 
> @romaz, @ray-dude: I hope you don't mind I tag you in this post, since you both have posted on this subject before.



I have gone upto +8dB with Blu2 connected and playing DSD; +5dB with PCM but I like to listen loud.

G


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I find it surprising Rob is not working on a successor. The level of following for Dave is immense for a HIFI component of this price bracket. Even if Chord did a mark two with separate redesigned power supply and chassis, better shielding, tweaked filters I would be am immediate buyer and I am sure I would not be alone. You don’t have to change the tap length if it doesn’t improve things. Fujifilm for instance just released the 4th edition of their flagship crop camera line the XT3 and didn’t even change the sensor. They are still backed up on orders and that is not Coronavirus related.

I think not releasing a Dave II after 5 years is a missed commercial opportunity tbh. Still nobody could accuse Chord of being money-grabbing


----------



## miketlse

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I find it surprising Rob is not working on a successor. The level of following for Dave is immense for a HIFI component of this price bracket. Even if Chord did a mark two with separate redesigned power supply and chassis, better shielding, tweaked filters I would be am immediate buyer and I am sure I would not be alone. You don’t have to change the tap length if it doesn’t improve things. Fujifilm for instance just released the 4th edition of their flagship crop camera line the XT3 and didn’t even change the sensor. They are still backed up on orders and that is not Coronavirus related.
> 
> I think not releasing a Dave II after 5 years is a missed commercial opportunity tbh. Still nobody could accuse Chord of being money-grabbing


If anyone needs more taps, then they can already add them by using Blue2 or MScaler, so no need to create a DAVE2 from a taps point of view.
That largely only leaves the 20 element sound shaper or output power that chord could update - but if you do that, then you essentially have a digital power amp.
Perhaps there will never be a Dave2, but a digital amp instead - but chord consistently post that they are several years away.
I think Rob is being honest with posters, but some owners do not want to believe him.


----------



## GoodEnoughGear

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I find it surprising Rob is not working on a successor. The level of following for Dave is immense for a HIFI component of this price bracket. Even if Chord did a mark two with separate redesigned power supply and chassis, better shielding, tweaked filters I would be am immediate buyer and I am sure I would not be alone. You don’t have to change the tap length if it doesn’t improve things. Fujifilm for instance just released the 4th edition of their flagship crop camera line the XT3 and didn’t even change the sensor. They are still backed up on orders and that is not Coronavirus related.
> 
> I think not releasing a Dave II after 5 years is a missed commercial opportunity tbh. Still nobody could accuse Chord of being money-grabbing


Pretty easy to just call it MARK or ANDRE or something. Get ready to be blindsided. Apply for those credit cards now.


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I think not releasing a Dave II after 5 years is a missed commercial opportunity tbh



But non of us knows what Rob is working on instead of Dave2 and whatever it is must be more important so probably the best thing is to stand by to be excited rather than wishing for Dave2?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I would love to know what Rob is working on right now. Whatever it is I am sure it will be exciting.


----------



## JaZZ

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I find it surprising Rob is not working on a successor. The level of following for Dave is immense for a HIFI component of this price bracket. Even if Chord did a mark two with separate redesigned power supply and chassis, better shielding, tweaked filters I would be am immediate buyer and I am sure I would not be alone. You don’t have to change the tap length if it doesn’t improve things. Fujifilm for instance just released the 4th edition of their flagship crop camera line the XT3 and didn’t even change the sensor. They are still backed up on orders and that is not Coronavirus related.
> 
> I think not releasing a Dave II after 5 years is a missed commercial opportunity tbh. Still nobody could accuse Chord of being money-grabbing




You do have a point – but I'm glad that there's no successor on the horizon. Who needs something better than DAVE + M Scaler!? So we can spend our money for music and save for our old age. Or look for the latest and greatest headphones. Or buy better cables.


----------



## Pastwa

There is a very good reason to combine all the separate elements (DAC+MSCALER) in a single, practical chassis, ideally with the addition of a quality streamer onboard. This would simply make it a very elegant, hi-end audio system, instead of having 3 separate boxes plus all the associated cables, very messy solution.


----------



## Triode User

Pastwa said:


> There is a very good reason to combine all the separate elements (DAC+MSCALER) in a single, practical chassis, ideally with the addition of a quality streamer onboard. This would simply make it a very elegant, hi-end audio system, instead of having 3 separate boxes plus all the associated cables, very messy solution.



According to Rob Watts, for the time being there are practical reasons why Mscaler and DAC cannot be in the same box. 

From a user point of view it would also make incremental upgrading much harder, eg for those that may have TT2 + Mscaler and would like to keep the Mscaler but upgrade to a Dave DAC.


----------



## hmartin (Mar 14, 2020)

Triode User said:


> According to Rob Watts, for the time being there are practical reasons why Mscaler and DAC cannot be in the same box.
> 
> From a user point of view it would also make incremental upgrading much harder, eg for those that may have TT2 + Mscaler and would like to keep the Mscaler but upgrade to a Dave DAC.



On the other hand the combined dream Dac could:
- Drop WTA filtering to 768 kHz from the dave fpga and instead do better 768 kHz to 104 Mhz upsampling and noise shaping using the free fpga resources.
- Use a non standard interface between the internal components avoiding issues like rfi e.g. Optical. You could also let the msc part send 1.5 mhz instead of 768 kHz.
- Fix issues in the dave like the balanced output, making it possible to drive balanced headphones. Dream would to have both balanced and non balanced headphone outputs on the front. 
-Use a proper full size box with a display you can see from the listening seat.
-Nice would also to have hdmi input so you can get full resolution audio and dsd from a blu-ray player.


----------



## iamoneagain (Mar 14, 2020)

Rob has said there won’t be another Dave until there is a new FPGA released. He can’t do anything more. One can assume once there is the Dave might have the mscaler built in and the power output equal or better than the Hugo TT2.   Maybe he’d try doubling the pulse array to 40 since having 20 seems to make a big difference over the TT2 according to Rob.

Also predicting that he’d release a Choral line of mscaler with at least 2 million taps, if it shows further improvement.  All this would still depend on the new FPGA released.


----------



## iDesign (Mar 15, 2020)

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I find it surprising Rob is not working on a successor. The level of following for Dave is immense for a HIFI component of this price bracket. Even if Chord did a mark two with separate redesigned power supply and chassis, better shielding, tweaked filters I would be am immediate buyer and I am sure I would not be alone. You don’t have to change the tap length if it doesn’t improve things. Fujifilm for instance just released the 4th edition of their flagship crop camera line the XT3 and didn’t even change the sensor. They are still backed up on orders and that is not Coronavirus related.
> 
> I think not releasing a Dave II after 5 years is a missed commercial opportunity tbh. Still nobody could accuse Chord of being money-grabbing


It is only surprising because we live in a hyper-consumerist society where companies like Apple, Fuji, and others have driven you to expect new products every year. Fortunately, Rob Watts rejects the notion of making small, dishonest changes to existing products and then advertising them as new so consumers  feel they need the latest version.



JaZZ said:


> I'm glad that there's no successor on the horizon. Who needs something better than DAVE + M Scaler!?


This.


----------



## Cafone

HeeBroG said:


> I have gone upto +8dB with Blu2 connected and playing DSD; +5dB with PCM but I like to listen loud.
> 
> G



And that is with your Voxativ 9.87s which are 4 Ohm? I thought Rob advised against driving 4 Ohm speakers altogether.


----------



## astrostar59

High end single box solutions tend not so sell well in large numbers. I have no idea why. Possibly it is too big a risk to have a one-size fits all design? Many high end DACs such as MSB, dCS, TotalDAC make big profits on ext clocks, PS, bridge etc.

The DAVE then MScaler has let many to buy at 8K level, then bolt on later. They may not have spent more at the start.


----------



## JaZZ

Music...

...that lets you forget Corona & Co. for 8 minutes.


----------



## Skyhawk182

Perhaps this question has been asked before. I looked, albeit not super hard, there are simply waaaaay to many posts.
Does adding an Mscaler to a DAVE make the most substantial portion of the DAVE redundant? We are paying for taps. Using an Mscaler with a Dave would simply go around the build in WTA, would it not?

Is there a laymans explanation of the benefits of the 20 element pulse array over the 10 of the TT2? 

Thanks in advance.


----------



## hmartin

Skyhawk182 said:


> Perhaps this question has been asked before. I looked, albeit not super hard, there are simply waaaaay to many posts.
> Does adding an Mscaler to a DAVE make the most substantial portion of the DAVE redundant? We are paying for taps. Using an Mscaler with a Dave would simply go around the build in WTA, would it not?
> 
> Is there a laymans explanation of the benefits of the 20 element pulse array over the 10 of the TT2?
> ...


Better noise performance (3dB) and better resolution (6dB), but dave has also better noise shaper so the improvement is much larger than just 2x the number of elements.


----------



## HeeBroG

Cafone said:


> And that is with your Voxativ 9.87s which are 4 Ohm? I thought Rob advised against driving 4 Ohm speakers altogether.



The crossover-less driver has an impedance of 10.5 Ohms. I'm guessing that doesn't change very much putting it in a box. 
I've been connecting it direct for the almost 2 years now without any issues. The speakers are about 3.1m from my listening position. 
I can get up to 100-103dB SPL from here using an SPL app on my iPhone on some classical crescendos.
I would prefer more headroom so am eagerly awaiting the digital amps.
I have no plans to add an analog amp in the interim as the drive is enough for most material.
I won't trade the loss in transparency for more drive.
With the same app I've measured 100-105dB at my local concert hall (mid-hall seats) with some classical pieces. Quartets are in the 75-80dB range. Some local jazz clubs with amplified big band stuff also come out at 100-105dB.

To give you an idea of the volume I listen at; I play my Focal Utopia at -20 to-18dB with Blu2 attached.

G


----------



## Ratephi

I appreciate this is a topic that has been brought up a few times here and there but I was never able to read a solid conclusive position on it (the 1000 pages of this thread are not always easy to scan..). The topic being "powering DAVE from batteries".  

I'm referring in particular to the scenario of plugging DAVE into a battery source (e.g. Goal Zero Yeti or other similar battery packs). In other words, I am not considering any scenario which would require the modding of the DAVE itself...

Can anybody help me understand whether or not that has been tested, if results have been achieved and whether that is overall something worth trying or not?

Thanks!!


----------



## Triode User

Ratephi said:


> I appreciate this is a topic that has been brought up a few times here and there but I was never able to read a solid conclusive position on it (the 1000 pages of this thread are not always easy to scan..). The topic being "powering DAVE from batteries".
> 
> I'm referring in particular to the scenario of plugging DAVE into a battery source (e.g. Goal Zero Yeti or other similar battery packs). In other words, I am not considering any scenario which would require the modding of the DAVE itself...
> 
> ...



It may be that the quality of the mains from such a device is inferior to the mains from the wall socket. Because mains voltage is involved you will need to have an earth to Dave for safety and wouldn't that defeat any intended isolation? I would say proceed with caution if you decide to have a go.


----------



## Ratephi

Triode User said:


> It may be that the quality of the mains from such a device is inferior to the mains from the wall socket. Because mains voltage is involved you will need to have an earth to Dave for safety and wouldn't that defeat any intended isolation? I would say proceed with caution if you decide to have a go.




Thanks, appreciate the word of caution. 
I literally don't have a clue about this topic so please excuse in advance any stupid questions I might ask... What you are saying is that, because of the high voltage involved in powering DAVE, I would necessarily need to have DAVE grounded but a battery pack solution like e.g. the Goal Zero would not offer that. Am I correct?


----------



## Triode User

Ratephi said:


> Thanks, appreciate the word of caution.
> I literally don't have a clue about this topic so please excuse in advance any stupid questions I might ask... What you are saying is that, because of the high voltage involved in powering DAVE, I would necessarily need to have DAVE grounded but a battery pack solution like e.g. the Goal Zero would not offer that. Am I correct?



I am saying that Dave is not a double insulated electrical item and therefore requires to be earthed for safety. The Goal Zero is by definition not connected to earth so you would still have to connect Dave to the mains earth. It would not be safe to use Dave without it being earthed just in case of a fault situation.


----------



## Ratephi

Triode User said:


> I am saying that Dave is not a double insulated electrical item and therefore requires to be earthed for safety. The Goal Zero is by definition not connected to earth so you would still have to connect Dave to the mains earth. It would not be safe to use Dave without it being earthed just in case of a fault situation.




Very clear, thank you again! It's quite obvious that it's clearly not worth the risk then...

I guess this would not apply to other lower voltage devices (e.g. M-scaler), correct?


----------



## Triode User

Ratephi said:


> Very clear, thank you again! It's quite obvious that it's clearly not worth the risk then...
> 
> I guess this would not apply to other lower voltage devices (e.g. M-scaler), correct?



Correct, those devices do not have mains voltage in them and so do not require to be earthed for safety reasons. There are some specific cases where Rob has advised that earthing the cases can be beneficial but it is not a safety issue.


----------



## rgs9200m

Is there any way to install (in Windows 10) both the Chord Driver for the DAVE and the KEF driver for the LS50W speakers?
I can't seem to get the KEF driver to load when the Chord Driver is installed..

(I use the Chord for headphone listening only and want to just hook up the KEF speakers to my computer via a USB cable so it uses the KEF's internal DAC.)

I'm hesitant to use the RCA inputs for the LS50s because I once fried a speaker from a spurious output from my computer, and I don't want that to happen to the KEFs.


----------



## ZappaMan

rgs9200m said:


> Is there any way to install (in Windows 10) both the Chord Driver for the DAVE and the KEF driver for the LS50W speakers?
> I can't seem to get the KEF driver to load when the Chord Driver is installed..
> 
> (I use the Chord for headphone listening only and want to just hook up the KEF speakers to my computer via a USB cable so it uses the KEF's internal DAC.)
> ...


When you say load, what do you mean?
After the drivers are installed, then you can choose between them in the sound options (icon in the system tray, area bottom right of the windows screen).


----------



## rgs9200m

ZappaMan said:


> When you say load, what do you mean?
> After the drivers are installed, then you can choose between them in the sound options (icon in the system tray, area bottom right of the windows screen).


Sorry, I used an old KEF driver I had and I downloaded a new one and the setup now works (setup kept saying the speakers were not connected). Thanks.


----------



## musickid

with all this talk of earthing dave does the dave need any special earthing or similar adjustments when being used straight out of the box?


----------



## Lgn3

musickid said:


> with all this talk of earthing dave does the dave need any special earthing or similar adjustments when being used straight out of the box?


No


----------



## musickid

stil in the hms/tt2 vs dave no mans land. struggling with this one.


----------



## alekc

musickid said:


> stil in the hms/tt2 vs dave no mans land. struggling with this one.


Very tough choice so it must take time...


----------



## musickid

which way would folk go?


----------



## F208Frank

That is something you would need to decide for yourself, but let's be honest, at this rate of teetering back and forth... it sounds like sooner or later you will get it.

Unless finances absolutely will not allow it, then of course being responsible trumps all.

Sorry for the preachy response, not sure why that came out that way.

I love you though.


----------



## musickid (Mar 21, 2020)

hi there, my issue with dave is that i don't want to and can't end up spending 12k with an eventual accompanying mscaler. the dave is tops but the mscaler is indispensable too so the dilemma begins.


----------



## F208Frank

1. Don't buy DAVE if you can't spend the 12k
2. Keep current set up and save for the DAVE and then sell the TT prior to DAVE purchase since you do not want to sell HMS
3. You knew all this already though
4. I love you


----------



## musickid

but alot of members are saying the dave is leagues more musical than the mTT2. so my gameplan would be to get the dave to use exclusively with my pm1's and call it a day.


----------



## iDesign

musickid said:


> but alot of members are saying the dave is leagues more musical than the mTT2. so my gameplan would be to get the dave to use exclusively with my pm1's and call it a day.


No one can possibly understand your preferences or how you perceive sound. You should always listen to any equipment you’re considering before making a purchase. This bit of advice will save you thousands of dollars.


----------



## jlbrach

everyone hears things differently, everyone has different hearing ability just like some need glasses and others dont....one person may hear great improvement and others say what's the fuss?....that is why it is all so subjective


----------



## Triode User (Mar 22, 2020)

F208Frank said:


> 1. Don't buy DAVE if you can't spend the 12k
> 2. Keep current set up and save for the DAVE and then sell the TT prior to DAVE purchase since you do not want to sell HMS
> 3. You knew all this already though
> 4. I love you



if you do decide to get DAVE then the best way financially might be to sell tt2 and hms privately then wait for a second hand DAVE to come up. You shouldn’t have to spend any / much money then to get Dave.


----------



## naynay

There is a used Dave selling on ebay UK now.


----------



## Triode User

naynay said:


> There is a used Dave selling on ebay UK now.



Three when I looked earlier but I suspect one is a scam/ fraudulent listing.


----------



## rgs9200m (Mar 22, 2020)

Can I swtich my DAVE back and forth  between BNC input (from an MScaler) to direct USB input (from my computer) on the fly as a way to bypass the Mscaler? (This would be just using the input selections on my DAVE if I have both the DAVE and the MScaler connected via separate USB cables into my laptop.) Thanks.

(Oddly, I think I hear a little less distinct/detailed/solid bass with the Mscaler vs. what I am used to on DAVE direct. Maybe the MScaler needs break-in? Not sure. I'm trying to A/B test things just to test this. I use Meze Empyrean headphones. I'm not sure if I'm imagining things. I do think I hear some more mid and high details with the MScaler, but then I'm not sure exactly. I hear the same difference on my Grado GH1s also.)

I've had the DAVE for a couple of years now and I'm a huge fan of it but I'm new to the MScaler. I'm also huge fan of the Meze Empyreans FWIW.

Thanks.


----------



## hmartin

rgs9200m said:


> Can I swtich my DAVE back and forth  between BNC input (from an MScaler) to direct USB input (from my computer) on the fly as a way to bypass the Mscaler? (This would be just using the input selections on my DAVE if I have both the DAVE and the MScaler connected via separate USB cables into my laptop.) Thanks.
> 
> (Oddly, I think I hear a little less distinct/detailed/solid bass with the Mscaler vs. what I am used to on DAVE direct. Maybe the MScaler needs break-in? Not sure. I'm trying to A/B test things just to test this. I use Meze Empyrean headphones. I'm not sure if I'm imagining things. I do think I hear some more mid and high details with the MScaler, but then I'm not sure exactly. I hear the same difference on my Grado GH1s also.)
> 
> ...



Remember that the msc will lower the volume by 3db, so when you switch to the direct connection you should lower the volume by 3db to make a fair comparison.


----------



## miketlse

rgs9200m said:


> Can I swtich my DAVE back and forth  between BNC input (from an MScaler) to direct USB input (from my computer) on the fly as a way to bypass the Mscaler? (This would be just using the input selections on my DAVE if I have both the DAVE and the MScaler connected via separate USB cables into my laptop.) Thanks.
> 
> (Oddly, I think I hear a little less distinct/detailed/solid bass with the Mscaler vs. what I am used to on DAVE direct. Maybe the MScaler needs break-in? Not sure. I'm trying to A/B test things just to test this. I use Meze Empyrean headphones. I'm not sure if I'm imagining things. I do think I hear some more mid and high details with the MScaler, but then I'm not sure exactly. I hear the same difference on my Grado GH1s also.)
> 
> ...


Chord had a pair of Empyreans at their display at London CanJam. They like them according to their FB page.


----------



## rgs9200m (Mar 22, 2020)

Yeah, the Empyreans are pretty darn astounding to these jaded ears of mine. Good enough to be my only headphone. Great soundfield with nice broad soundstaging environment with depth and a real driverless sound and sweet organic vocals with solid deep bass. And very non-fatiguing but crystalline highs.

Big, well-separated images. Good liquidity too, but not smeared or syrupy.
A nice balance of all factors. I just can't stop listening to them.

Just sweet, natural, and full of impact; no off-notes that I can hear.


----------



## Sound Trooper (Mar 22, 2020)

I've spent a better part of 3 weeks with my Dave now and it is proving my decision correct for selling the TT2 & Blu mk2. On paper the Dave loses out to the TT2 on pure driving power but in actual fact I do not really think there is much difference. The only headphone which I had to crank the volume up was the Abyss 1266 Phi, but it was perfectly loud enough at -3 db. As for the other headphones, I don't really find much of a difference. But what you "lose" in quantity, you gain a truck load in quality.

I am still getting awed by the transparency and musicality I am getting with the Dave and my previous TT2+Blu Mk2 cannot touch this. There is also no fluffing about with cables to reduce the RF noises and improve the sound quality, just pure audio bliss. I am even questioning myself if I still need my tube amp as I have not touched it since.

PS. I absolutely love the auteur with the Dave.


----------



## Triode User

Sound Trooper said:


> I've spent a better part of 3 weeks with my Dave now and it is proving my decision correct for selling the TT2 & Blu mk2. On paper the Dave loses out to the TT2 on pure driving power but in actual fact I do not really think there is much difference. The only headphone which I had to crank the volume up was the Abyss 1266 Phi, but it was perfectly loud enough at -3 db. As for the other headphones, I don't really find much of a difference. But what you "lose" in quantity, you gain a truck load in quality.
> 
> I am still getting awed by the transparency and musicality I am getting with the Dave and my previous TT2+Blu Mk2 cannot touch this. There is also no fluffing about with cables to reduce the RF noises and improve the sound quality, just pure audio bliss. I am even questioning myself if I still need my tube amp as I have not touched it since.
> 
> PS. I absolutely love the auteur with the Dave.



And this is exactly what I have been banging on about with the Dave. The transparency and musicality is just uncanny. The tight and clear bass is something to behold.

I am sure you will continue to enjoy your Dave.


----------



## Sound Trooper

Triode User said:


> And this is exactly what I have been banging on about with the Dave. The transparency and musicality is just uncanny. The tight and clear bass is something to behold.
> 
> I am sure you will continue to enjoy your Dave.



you are right about the bass, it somehow manages to be more “organic” sounding than the TT2+Blu mk2 combo.


----------



## Whazzzup

iamoneagain said:


> I’m a new Dave owner. Went from the Hugo, to Hugo 2, to Dave within a year. Tried all three with the Focal Utopia. I’d say the jump from the Hugo to the Hugo 2 is as big as it is from Hugo 2 to the Dave.
> 
> The Dave just creates this real sense of space. It was almost too much for me to take the first day I had it. I needed a moment to adjust. It’s just that the separation, layering, textures, and space were so transparent especially with the Utopia, I almost felt overwhelmed. I gave Radiohead’s Kid A a try just to see what it could do.
> 
> ...


well i didn't really notice much difference between hugo and hugo2 and in some ways, vocals and bass , actually preferred hugo to H2


----------



## astrostar59

Any of you DAVE owners done an A/B with other top DACs?


----------



## Triode User

astrostar59 said:


> Any of you DAVE owners done an A/B with other top DACs?



I used to own a Bricasti M1 SE. Dave replaced it after a home trial.


----------



## audio_1 (Mar 24, 2020)

astrostar59 said:


> Any of you DAVE owners done an A/B with other top DACs?



I compared the Dave with the DCS Vivaldi DAC before I purchased it. There was really no comparison. The Dave was way better in all respects, especially dynamics. As in the previous few post, the powerful, organic resolute bass from the Dave, Blu2 and Opto-Dx is something I have not heard in any other system.


----------



## GryphonGuy

astrostar59 said:


> Any of you DAVE owners done an A/B with other top DACs?



After my Metronome Signature DAC died I tried DAVE and wondered why I used to own a Metronome as far as SQ goes.

GG


----------



## iamoneagain (Mar 23, 2020)

Whazzzup said:


> well i didn't really notice much difference between hugo and hugo2 and in some ways, vocals and bass , actually preferred hugo to H2



I only found this true when I tried the two with the Grado SR225. They weren’t transparent enough to really get anything more out of the Hugo 2.  The original Hugo just sounded smoother and more musical with the SR225. With the Focal Utopia, it was easy to hear the difference. The Hugo sounds so much smaller and less detailed. It was a pleasant sound but didn’t bring that much out of the Utopia’s. The Hugo 2 was much more impressive but sounded a little thin with the white filter. Really only liked it with the green filter. The last two sounded more similar to the original Hugo.

Switching to the Dave is like removing the dac altogether. By that I mean I just feel like I’m listening to the music and not the headphone or dac anymore. It kind of transports you into the music. Really let’s the Utopia shine.


----------



## iDesign (Mar 23, 2020)

I have experience with the dCS Rossini, Vivaldi, MSB Select, Yggdrasil, and numerous ESS 9018 based DACs to name a few. Purchased the DAVE and Blu Mk II. Case closed.

Never tested the totaldac but that seems moot now.


----------



## astrostar59

Well heard the Bartok at Can-Jam on the Abyss, and was not so impressed by it. It sounded smeared to me, the upper mids and treble was pretty flat and lifeless. And Iown a TC so know the performance of it (immense) . I couldn't compare directly with the DAVE and Abyss, but did immediately jump on the WA33 and Abyss and everything sounded much better, way better in fact. WA behind the Aries Cerat Genus though, but still, nice performance.


----------



## F208Frank

I'm sure Bartok is a nice item but when trying Abyss on it, not sure if biased but it did feel "lifeless"


----------



## Pastwa

If you want to hear Bartok (instead of poorly driven Abyss) try it with Focal Utopia. I didn't like how Abyss 1266 sound when running directly either from the dCS or DAVE. However, with the dedicated WE Headtrip it is a completely different story, perfect match, expensive dough.


----------



## F208Frank

That makes sense, as the amp on the Bartok probably does not have enough power to make Abyss shine. If that was the case and likely is though, I would skip Bartok and get DCS separates then.


----------



## buzzlulu (Mar 26, 2020)

Well we all hear things differently.
In my main 2 channel Naim system I use a Linn Klimax DS
I am splitting the headphone system off and moving it to another room.
I demoed the TT2 and DAVE last year at CanJam NY and then again at this years CanJam.  I have owned a Mojo and Hugo1 for a brief period.

BARTOK was demoed at a dealer in January and then again at CanJam - with Utopias which are my main cans ( I also have Stax).
End result - Bartok was delivered this week.  My demo recollections tell me the Bartok has nothing to feel bad about even when going up against my Linn - which is more than double the price.

I also like the idea of an all in one ROON ready box with no external cable quality/matching issues.

Since Headfi is extremely pro Chord I'm ready for incoming.
No worries though - different strokes for different folks

With that said dCS is on a roll with the Bartok.  Many favorable reviews and many new owners.  Quite a few Naim 2 channel owners in the UK have been moving in that direction.

Competition is a good thing.


----------



## astrostar59

Pastwa said:


> If you want to hear Bartok (instead of poorly driven Abyss) try it with Focal Utopia. I didn't like how Abyss 1266 sound when running directly either from the dCS or DAVE. However, with the dedicated WE Headtrip it is a completely different story, perfect match, expensive dough.


Yes that could be the reason. I run the Abyss of a Moon 600i integrated which is 125W into 8 ohms, so about 12-15W into 33 ohms of the Abyss roughly. Odd but the Aries Cerat Genus tube amp with 'only' 25W also handles the Abyss easily and sounds wonderful.


----------



## jlbrach

I use the formula s/powerman with my abyss tc and susvara and it is wonderful....I have found power ratings and watts do not necessarily tell you all that much...I have owned the violectric 281 and the Ican pro and a wells amp all with more power and yet the formula s/powerman is far better.....


----------



## astrostar59

jlbrach said:


> I use the formula s/powerman with my abyss tc and susvara and it is wonderful....I have found power ratings and watts do not necessarily tell you all that much...I have owned the violectric 281 and the Ican pro and a wells amp all with more power and yet the formula s/powerman is far better.....


I agree 100%. It may be slew rates, and of course how well the power supply can supply the current. The X1 is an excellent choice really near the top of tree for the TC.


----------



## Sound Trooper

buzzlulu said:


> Well we all hear things differently.
> In my main 2 channel Naim system I use a Linn Klimax DS
> I am splitting the headphone system off and moving it to another room.
> I demoed the TT2 and DAVE last year at CanJam NY and then again at this years CanJam.  I have owned a Mojo and Hugo1 for a brief period.
> ...



Well I think the Dave vs Bartok debate will continue to go on, but my opinion is that everyone of us listens differently and hence prefers different things. I had a very brief demo of the Bartok a couple of months ago and felt that it was really good but it didn't really blew my socks off. Given the versatility of the Bartok (dac, stream, headphone amp, pre-amp?) I can see it appealing very much to someone who wants a high-end all-in-one solution. 

No matter if you choose the Bartok or Dave, I think there are no losers at the end of the day.


----------



## Jon L (Mar 27, 2020)

Pastwa said:


> I didn't like how Abyss 1266 sound when running directly either from the dCS or DAVE.



That effort sounds like trying to swim upstream.   




Upstream by drjlo2, on Flickr


----------



## Lucky87 (Mar 27, 2020)

Has anyone ordered a NEW Dave recently and how long did it take you? I am still waiting going on 5 weeks for a SILVER one.. And I understand with the current situation. Thanks


----------



## F208Frank

I have waited over 5 weeks as well....


----------



## ekfc63 (Mar 30, 2020)

A quick question for those using the Chord Dave with XI Audio Formula S/Powerman headamp with volume control. I am using this setup (with MScaler and Abyss TCs).  I can adjust the volume with the volume control on either the Dave or Formula S.  Is this correct?  If so, what ideally should the volume on the Dave be set at?  The reason for asking is that when in DAC mode the Dave fixes the output level.  This doesn't seem to be the case when used in preamp node.  Also can the Dave be run into the Formula S in DAC mode and if so are there any advantages?  I've ask this same question in the 1266TC thread.


----------



## Triode User

ekfc63 said:


> A quick question for those using the Chord Dave with XI Audio Formula S/Powerman headamp with volume control. I am using this setup (with MScaler and Abyss TCs).  I can adjust the volume with the volume control on either the Dave or Formula S.  Is this correct?  If so, what ideally should the volume on the Dave be set at?  The reason for asking is that when in DAC mode the Dave fixes the output level.  This doesn't seem to be the case when used in preamp node.  Also can the Dave be run into the Formula S in DAC mode and if so are there any advantages?  I've ask this same question in the 1266TC thread.



The actual output signal is the same whether Dave is in DAC mode or Preamp mode, the only difference is that DAC mode is fixed output volume and in preamp mode the volume is variable. There is some advantage to using preamp mode in that you can adjust the volume to suit the sensitivity of your head amp.


----------



## ray-dude

Cafone said:


> Hi guys, need some advice on driving speakers directly with Dave. I demoed the Cube Audio Nenuphars by hooking them up straight to Dave's RCA outs. It sounded amazing and it looks like it can go loud enough. I'm just not sure though how far you can push Dave's volume given that the speakers are 6 Ohm? Does the same rule of thumb of you being able to go up to +3dB still apply? For what it's worth, I didn't dare to go higher than -7dB and it was definitely adequate (also in the low bass region!), even for a very quiet classical recording. I'd just like to know how far you can go, what the risks are and what signs you need to look out for.
> 
> @romaz, @ray-dude: I hope you don't mind I tag you in this post, since you both have posted on this subject before.



Sorry, just seeing this (alas, pandemic-induced-tardiness...believe it or not, this past weekend was the first time I've been able to listen to music in 3-4 weeks).  

I've only had Omega (Super/Compact) Alnico Monitors and Voxativ speakers (1.6 drivers and 4D drivers) connected to my DAVE, so I can't speak to the Cube Audio's directly (although they look very cool!)

At 92dB sensitivity, you should be fine pushing DAVE to +5 or +6 dB (with mScaler) or +3dB (without).  With single driver speakers, you will hear it very clearly if DAVE starts having trouble pushing current.  As you calibrate how far you're able to go, I recommend a binaural recording that you're familiar with (I listen to a lot of Chesky stuff).  As things start getting pushed to their limit, that wonderful holographic all around you sound stage will start to collapse and get more granular.  You can also focus on sound stage depth (depth is one of the most wonderful and most delicate attributes of DAVE).  

Hope everyone is safe and well...


----------



## musickid (Apr 2, 2020)

many here place solo dave above the mTT2. given the potency and musicality of the hms how does a solo dave compensate for the missing hms effect found in an mscaled tt2? detailed replies extremely appreciated.


----------



## Ciggavelli

musickid said:


> many here place solo dave above the mTT2. given the potency and musicality of the hms how does a solo dave compensate for the missing hms effect found in an mscaled tt2? detailed replies extremely appreciated.


If you’re into computers, this may help. A solo Dave is like 4K at 60fps. It has amazing visuals, great contrast, lots of pixels. mTT2 is like 1080p at 120fps. The resolution isn’t as high, the colors aren’t as vibrant, but everything is noticeably smoother.

Some prefer the smoother option, while others prefer the higher resolution.

A Dave with an M-scaler is 4K at 120fps, best of both worlds.


----------



## F208Frank

Ciggavelli said:


> If you’re into computers, this may help. A solo Dave is like 4K at 60fps. It has amazing visuals, great contrast, lots of pixels. mTT2 is like 1080p at 120fps. The resolution isn’t as high, the colors aren’t as vibrant, but everything is noticeably smoother.
> 
> Some prefer the smoother option, while others prefer the higher resolution.
> 
> A Dave with an M-scaler is 4K at 120fps, best of both worlds.


Elegance.


----------



## F208Frank

I wanted to ask how come in the speaker 2 channel world the Dave is not as popular compared to the headphone world? Specifically the HMS/Dave combo.

What are your thoughts?


----------



## Triode User

F208Frank said:


> I wanted to ask how come in the speaker 2 channel world the Dave is not as popular compared to the headphone world? Specifically the HMS/Dave combo.
> 
> What are your thoughts?



My impression was that DAVE+HMS is more prevalent with speaker systems than with headphones but I could be wrong!


----------



## jlbrach (Apr 2, 2020)

I have the dave/blu2 with headphones, magnificent combo


----------



## F208Frank

Yeah for me personally I do not see DAVE often in speaker forums, but Im sure DAVE is appreciated in most set ups.


----------



## audio_1

F208Frank said:


> I wanted to ask how come in the speaker 2 channel world the Dave is not as popular compared to the headphone world? Specifically the HMS/Dave combo.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


I think many audiophiles don't appreciate or understand the unique technology, and especially that it does things that other DACs can't do. Wealthy audiophiles don't consider it as it is priced below perceived competitors such as dCS and MSB. They obviously haven't compared it to them.


----------



## F208Frank

Anyone else experiencing massive delays in their Chord orders? I ordered my DAVE 6 weeks ago and my dealer still does not have it yet.


----------



## astrostar59

F208Frank said:


> Anyone else experiencing massive delays in their Chord orders? I ordered my DAVE 6 weeks ago and my dealer still does not have it yet.


Have you checked Chord are even open? Most UK companies are now closed because of Corvid-19.


----------



## STR-1

astrostar59 said:


> Have you checked Chord are even open? Most UK companies are now closed because of Corvid-19.


Chord were still working as of yesterday.  Delay could be down to Covid-19 affecting international delivery services.


----------



## Triode User

STR-1 said:


> Chord were still working as of yesterday.  Delay could be down to Covid-19 affecting international delivery services.



I am finding that if anything international courier services are running slightly more efficiently at the moment with latest parcels dispatched with DHL taking 2 days to both USA and Australia.


----------



## miketlse

F208Frank said:


> Anyone else experiencing massive delays in their Chord orders? I ordered my DAVE 6 weeks ago and my dealer still does not have it yet.


Maybe it doesn't apply in your case, but for quite a few products, the Chord 'black' versions are more popular than the 'silver' versions, and so the black versions are oversubscribed, and there are delays in production/delivery.
Which colour finish did you order?


----------



## ekfc63 (Apr 3, 2020)

I'm don't listen to CD much these days but have an old Marantz CD player (63 I think) that I could connect to my Dave via toslink for this purpose.  How much do CD transports matter sound quality wise?  Would I be better off getting a newer CD transport?  Cambridge makes one (the CXC) which is low'ish money and has some good reviews.  How is toslink rated?  The Marantz also has a digital coax out.  Better than Toslink?


----------



## F208Frank

Black for sure. Thanks for the thoughtful reply.


----------



## miketlse

ekfc63 said:


> I'm don't listen to CD much these days but have an old Marantz CD player (63 I think) that I could connect to my Dave via toslink for this purpose.  How much do CD transports matter sound quality wise?  Would I be better off getting a newer CD transport?  Cambridge makes one (the CXC) which is low'ish money and has some good reviews.  How is toslink rated?  The Marantz also has a digital coax out.  Better than Toslink?


I used to read posts about how much better Blu2 was than using MP3/FLAC on hard drive files etc.
I can't claim expertise, but my best experience with Hugo2, is by using a bluray drive feeding the H2 by optical, then direct driving loudspeakers.
Based on that, I think there is a lot of mileage in using optical sources to feed Chord dacs, and then direct drive loudspeakers.


----------



## Paul Bjernklo

ekfc63 said:


> I'm don't listen to CD much these days but have an old Marantz CD player (63 I think) that I could connect to my Dave via toslink for this purpose.  How much do CD transports matter sound quality wise?  Would I be better off getting a newer CD transport?  Cambridge makes one (the CXC) which is low'ish money and has some good reviews.  How is toslink rated?  The Marantz also has a digital coax out.  Better than Toslink?



I have used CD Transports for along time and they do make a significant (massive to me) difference. I have a Cyrus CDT Signature that was around £1795 new when I bought it, but from reviews the Audiolab 6000 CDT at around £380 seems a steal and a bit better than the Cambridge according to for example a review by David Price at Hifi Choice. My recommendation would be to upgrade to that with a cheap Kabeldirekt Optical cable from Amazon. And yes Optical Toslink sounds a lot better.

https://www.audiolab.co.uk/6000cdt/


----------



## miketlse

Paul Bjernklo said:


> I have used CD Transports for along time and they do make a significant (massive to me) difference. I have a Cyrus CDT Signature that was around £1795 new when I bought it, but from reviews the Audiolab 6000 CDT at around £380 seems a steal and a bit better than the Cambridge according to for example a review by David Price at Hifi Choice. My recommendation would be to upgrade to that with a cheap Kabeldirekt Optical cable from Amazon. And yes Optical Toslink sounds a lot better.
> 
> https://www.audiolab.co.uk/6000cdt/


I support Paul.
I realise that Chord would like everyone to buy a Blu2, but step back for a moment.
I have found that with the Hugo 2, even a simple optical (using kabeldirekt) feed from a bluray drive to the Hugo 2, then direct driving speakers, offers the best sound quality that I have ever experienced.
DAVE can work wonders, but it appears that providing DAVE with a good input source is relatively simple.
Explore that, then post your findings.


----------



## Paul Bjernklo

miketlse said:


> I support Paul.
> I realise that Chord would like everyone to buy a Blu2, but step back for a moment.
> I have found that with the Hugo 2, even a simple optical (using kabeldirekt) feed from a bluray drive to the Hugo 2, then direct driving speakers, offers the best sound quality that I have ever experienced.
> DAVE can work wonders, but it appears that providing DAVE with a good input source is relatively simple.
> Explore that, then post your findings.



Hi, would be interested to know what speakers you use please as I have tried my PMC speakers directly from my Hugo 2 but sounded congested at normal volume, the speakers are high sensitivity at 90 db, but I have read that transmission line speakers crave power...


----------



## iDesign (Apr 6, 2020)

miketlse said:


> I support Paul.
> I realise that Chord would like everyone to buy a Blu2, but step back for a moment.
> I have found that with the Hugo 2, even a simple optical (using kabeldirekt) feed from a bluray drive to the Hugo 2, then direct driving speakers, offers the best sound quality that I have ever experienced.
> DAVE can work wonders, but it appears that providing DAVE with a good input source is relatively simple.
> Explore that, then post your findings.


It’s the integration of the M scaler and Phillips CD Pro 2 mechanism into the Choral design that make the Blu Mk II so compelling for most DAVE owners. Adding the Blu Mk II is _a step forward_ over a third-party CD transport without the M scaler.


----------



## miketlse

Paul Bjernklo said:


> Hi, would be interested to know what speakers you use please as I have tried my PMC speakers directly from my Hugo 2 but sounded congested at normal volume, the speakers are high sensitivity at 90 db, but I have read that transmission line speakers crave power...


I use my Hugo 2 direct driving 3 different types of speakers, according to the use case.
When working at my PC, I can use either the Wharfedale Diamond 1, or the Monitor Audio Silver as the computer monitor speakers, and both work fine, although not surprisingly the MA sound better.
When downstairs in the main room, I can direct drive the floorstanding Focal Aria 936 loud enough for my needs (listening to jazz at sensible levels).
Direct driving removes the 'veil' that I was experiencing when using an amplifier (that applied when using both a Mojo or a Hugo 2), and restores the transparency that I loved when using headphones.
Some owners have posted that they need much more power for listening to other music genres, at louder volumes - I don't dispute that.
Nevertheless I do believe that a simple bluray drive, with optical out to Hugo 2, then direct driving good speakers, offers fantastic bang per buck.
Yes like @iDesign points out, you can do even better, by using more expensive transports, dacs such as DAVE, etc.
These days, I do enjoy reading archive hifi magazine articles, describing how in the 1950s/1960s audiophiles used to achieve so much enjoyment from diy amplifiers that output only 2W.
It does keep me awake to the idea that many owners of Hugo 2, TT2, DAVE, could experience great enjoyment if they explore direct driving speakers, but this might mean that they have to discover more efficient speakers.


----------



## onsionsi

Just out of curiosity if someone did get a chance to listen to Aries Cerat Kassandra 2 Ref and compare it to Dave.


----------



## F208Frank

Likely going to be a fun Saturday.


----------



## musickid (Apr 11, 2020)

There is a strong chance after plenty of thought that i will be trading my TT2/MSCALER for a black DAVE first week of June. It would be great if everyone could help me here. 

1) How does PCM plus // DSD plus work in terms of optimising the relevant playback of those music formats. What's going on inside DAVE here?

2) Is optical still the preferred source for DAVE or can a good usb battery powered source compete? With optical is there a good glass cable available in the UK which does 192kHz? I know kabeldirekt does but that's plastic.

3) Finally can someone explain the Phase Pos setting. What it does and how it works and what it should be set at?

Many thanks to everyone. (this move has taken alot of courage as it has taken me 3 years to build my TT2/MSCALER  system). A long while ago i listened to a  Dvorak passage with DAVE and my Oppo PM1 and have never felt so gripped as i did then.


----------



## F208Frank (Apr 11, 2020)

I highly suggest keeping M Scaler as you will likely "wonder" what M Scaler Dave sounds like after you acquire DAVE.

Maybe sell TT first. Buy Dave, try M Scaler with DAVE, then sell M Scaler.

At least then you would have that curiosity gone.

But then again maybe not knowing keeps life simpler, just some suggestions.

Myself, I have the M Scaler on hand and am going to listen to solo Dave for a full month before adding it in to enjoy the journey.


----------



## musickid (Apr 11, 2020)

yes you make some very good points. my plan was to go solo dave with my pm1 headphone and call it a day so in effect barring myself from a future mscaler purchase to keep the total budget realistic and manageable. i wonder. listening now to mTT2 sounds excellent and i could use the dave upgrade money to buy the top of the range wave bnc cables improving the sound of my mTT2 even more. but then again dave is not a legend for no reason. to get the dave means trading in both tt2 and mscaler at the same time. i believe the new picture of the black dave above motivates me even more.


----------



## CreditingKarma

musickid said:


> yes you make some very good points. my plan was to go solo dave with my pm1 headphone and call it a day so in effect barring myself from a future mscaler purchase to keep the total budget realistic and manageable. i wonder. listening now to mTT2 sounds excellent and i could use the dave upgrade money to buy the top of the range wave bnc cables improving the sound of my mTT2 even more. but then again dave is not a legend for no reason. to get the dave means trading in both tt2 and mscaler at the same time. i believe the new picture of the black dave above motivates me even more.



During my quest for a new dac I had an scaler with my TT2 and then auditioned a Dave at at the sametime. I actually preferred the Dave without the mscaler while i felt like the TT2 sounded better with the mscaler. In the end I felt like both benefited more from the addition of a streamer ( Auralic Aries G2) than from the Mscaler. Your mileage may vary but I agree keep the scaler and sell the TT. If you like the Dave without the Mscaler then you should not have much trouble selling it later.


----------



## Triode User

F208Frank said:


> Myself, I have the M Scaler on hand and am going to listen to solo Dave for a full month before adding it in to enjoy the journey.



I bet you give in after less time than that! For sure, listen to Dave by itself for a while (a couple of hours?) but why miss out on a months worth of better sound quality? Have fun though whatever you do!


----------



## Lucky87

CreditingKarma said:


> During my quest for a new dac I had an scaler with my TT2 and then auditioned a Dave at at the sametime. I actually preferred the Dave without the mscaler while i felt like the TT2 sounded better with the mscaler. In the end I felt like both benefited more from the addition of a streamer ( Auralic Aries G2) than from the Mscaler. Your mileage may vary but I agree keep the scaler and sell the TT. If you like the Dave without the Mscaler then you should not have much trouble selling it later.


Oh man you said the naughty word “The Dave sounds better without the M Scaler” I agree with you 100% on the Dave sounds best by itself. I still waiting for someone to answer my question on what’s the best power cord but all I got was “buy a M Scaler“  hey what time is it answer “buy the M Scaler“


----------



## CreditingKarma

Lucky87 said:


> Oh man you said the naughty word “The Dave sounds better without the M Scaler” I agree with you 100% on the Dave sounds best by itself. I still waiting for someone to answer my question on what’s the best power cord but all I got was “buy a M Scaler“  hey what time is it answer “buy the M Scaler“



Maybe try the transparent power cords. The premire is a good starting point. They retail around $600. The high performance is nice too and about 1/2 the price.


----------



## jlbrach (Apr 12, 2020)

IMHO as good as dave is by itself, and I had it before I got my blu2, the combo with the blu2 is head and shoulders better but requires to live with it and experience the subtleties..at this level of performance and price all improvements are incremental


----------



## tunes

WilliamWykeham said:


> If anyone is is in NYC, has a Dave, and wants to hear a SR1a (I sold my Utopia after hearing), I am trying to do an A/B test of my Qutest vs a Dave.  I have an Mscaler too.  I might be able to get my friend to bring a Pavane as well, which really impressed me on first listen (see @Torq review)


Just got my SR1a JOTR SYSTEM. Waited a few days for the COVID to die. Now I want to hook it up to my CHORD DAVE HMS. Can anyone tell
me how to connect the two to avoid clipping with the preamp feeding the DAVE? Is volume on JOTR on highest or lowest level with volume control through DAVE remote? Thanks


----------



## ecwl

tunes said:


> Just got my SR1a JOTR SYSTEM. Waited a few days for the COVID to die. Now I want to hook it up to my CHORD DAVE HMS. Can anyone tell
> me how to connect the two to avoid clipping with the preamp feeding the DAVE? Is volume on JOTR on highest or lowest level with volume control through DAVE remote? Thanks


Looking at the regular Schiit Jotunheim specs, their built-in DACs would output at 2V. So it’s reasonable to assume that Schiit Jotunheim can handle a 2V input from DAVE. DAVE at -7dB would be about 2V. However, HMS would lower the volume digitally by 2.6dB? (can’t remember the exact value). So you should be able to probably listen to HMS+DAVE at about -4dB (or maybe -5dB) without clipping for sure. You should probably connect DAVE to JOTR via RCA, rather than XLR for lowest SNR from DAVE.

The bigger issue with JOTR is that any analog volume control will have an optimal point where you get the best linearity, most equal left-right balance, optimal SNR. So in an ideal world, what you really want to do is set the JOTR to that optimal analog volume setting and then adjust the digital volume of DAVE instead, provided the DAVE is not clipping the JOTR.

Anyway, that’s the theory. I don’t have JOTR. Either way, I don’t think you can go wrong.


----------



## jlbrach

I use the dave/blu2 with my formula s/powerman and set the dave to 0 for the susvara and to -4 for the abyss TC so I no reason this should be any different or difficult


----------



## tunes

ecwl said:


> Looking at the regular Schiit Jotunheim specs, their built-in DACs would output at 2V. So it’s reasonable to assume that Schiit Jotunheim can handle a 2V input from DAVE. DAVE at -7dB would be about 2V. However, HMS would lower the volume digitally by 2.6dB? (can’t remember the exact value). So you should be able to probably listen to HMS+DAVE at about -4dB (or maybe -5dB) without clipping for sure. You should probably connect DAVE to JOTR via RCA, rather than XLR for lowest SNR from DAVE.
> 
> The bigger issue with JOTR is that any analog volume control will have an optimal point where you get the best linearity, most equal left-right balance, optimal SNR. So in an ideal world, what you really want to do is set the JOTR to that optimal analog volume setting and then adjust the digital volume of DAVE instead, provided the DAVE is not clipping the JOTR.
> 
> Anyway, that’s the theory. I don’t have JOTR. Either way, I don’t think you can go wrong.


Does anyone feel that the brand/quality/cost of RCA cables to DAVE will change perceived SQ?  Any recommendations?


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> Does anyone feel that the brand/quality/cost of RCA cables to DAVE will change perceived SQ?  Any recommendations?



I can’t say about RCA cables but to my ears cables do make a difference but expensive is not always best. I connect my Dave to the amp with XLR and I use Belden 8760 Equivalent cable. This is a pro install shielded twisted pair and sounds as good as anything else I have heard (I have heard very many including several that cost thousands). These ones cost about £20 UKP for a pair.


----------



## jrfmd (Apr 13, 2020)

jlbrach said:


> IMHO as good as dave is by itself, and I had it before I got my blu2, the combo with the blu2 is head and shoulders better but requires to live with it and experience the subtleties..at this level of performance and price all improvements are incremental


I find that the     BLU2 > dave -> blue hawaii -> stax 007 sounds better _*with*_ the blu2 than without the blu2
I also find that dave > Utopia is better _*without*_ the blu2 than with it in the chain

I think I prefer the utpia/dave  to the blu2/dave/bluehawaii/stax combo but my blue hawaii is off for repairs so i cant compare them at this time

it may be more complicated than it appears

JRF


----------



## tunes

Triode User said:


> I can’t say about RCA cables but to my ears cables do make a difference but expensive is not always best. I connect my Dave to the amp with XLR and I use Belden 8760 Equivalent cable. This is a pro install shielded twisted pair and sounds as good as anything else I have heard (I have heard very many including several that cost thousands). These ones cost about £20 UKP for a pair.


Is XLR better than RCA and why?


----------



## miketlse

tunes said:


> Does anyone feel that the brand/quality/cost of RCA cables to DAVE will change perceived SQ?  Any recommendations?


@Triode User has already provided an answer, but I would like to take this opportunity to extend the ethos of his comment.
Nick already has several years experience with eliminating RFI for cables carrying the digital signals.
The question of the best cables for carrying the analogue signals does get occasionally raised on the chord threads, and in the wider terms of RCA, headphones, speakers, because each case will be susceptible to RFI.
Each time, some owners swear blind that the more expensive a cable (or brand) the better, whereas others swear blind that cheaper cables perform much the same.
I think that Nick is right to point out that some cheaper cables can be just as effective.
The key to understanding why, becomes the interesting knowledge, because it will help explain why brand A works well for some owners, and brand B works well for other owners.
@Rob Watts does post occasionally about cables, and it becomes clear after reading a few of them, that owners need to understand the 'design ethos' of cables before throwing thousands of dollars at a favoured brand, then experiencing disappointment.
The design ethos includes:

Include a shield that is not connected at either end - designed to dissipate RFI as heat within the shield
Include a shield that is connected to ground/earth at one or both ends - designed to remove RFI to earth. Maybe not the best solution if a system is completely non-earthed. You are probably just shunting RFI into the ground plane of your electronics.
Use widely spaced conductors, so as to reduce the impact of crosstalk between conductors - the approach used by one manufacturer of recommended speaker cables.
etc
So there is not one cable design ethos that is the best for all Chord owners. They need to think a bit deeper about how they have set-up their own system, especially with regard to earthing etc. This is bad news for anyone focused solely on the Apple 'just plug it in and it will work' philosophy.

I hope that this does not contradict Nick, but when owners buy DAVE and similar, I believe it is worth the time to step back and consider their overall audio system, rather than buying a brand/design of cable that 'destroys' what they have just spend a lot of money buying.


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> Is XLR better than RCA and why?



in a domestic environment there is no particular need for xlr because it is designed as a noise cancelling configuration for (very) long cable runs. However my amps are configured in a fully balanced manner so xlr is optimum for them. Rob Watts recommends the RCA output from Dave be used if possible because of the way that the balanced signal is generated in the Dave and so the RCA output from Dave is best for sound quality.


----------



## tunes

Triode User said:


> in a domestic environment there is no particular need for xlr because it is designed as a noise cancelling configuration for (very) long cable runs. However my amps are configured in a fully balanced manner so xlr is optimum for them. Rob Watts recommends the RCA output from Dave be used if possible because of the way that the balanced signal is generated in the Dave and so the RCA output from Dave is best for sound quality.


Thanks for that info.  What are the most cost-effect options for quality RCA cables for best SQ??


----------



## F208Frank (Apr 15, 2020)

What do you guys set your DAVE settings of:

1. HF Fil (On or Off)
2. Phase (Positive or Negative?)

Anyone kind enough to explain what they each do?

The online manual does not explain these settings nor does the quick start guide.


----------



## alxw0w (Apr 15, 2020)

Ok so I knew that this will come.
I started to think about switching from M scaled TT2 to solo Dave. My dealer offered my pretty good trade in option.
I read some opinions here and on audiobacon site.
Don't get me wrong I love my current rig when we talk about sound.
My main reason is that I want it to keep as simple as possible. I'm a bit 'OCD' about having a lot of cables hanging around, which is happening with m scaled tt2.
Space on/around my desk is limited.

So, any other thoughts on such change ? I'm sure in the future when I change my place I'll have a lot more space so m scaler (to dave) will be a matter of time.


----------



## Triode User

F208Frank said:


> What do you guys set your DAVE settings of:
> 
> 1. HF Fil (On or Off)
> 2. Phase (Positive or Negative?)
> ...



I have HF Filter ON, Positive Phase (I use these settings on solo Dave as well as when linked to Mscaler).

Some claim they prefer Positive Phase for some recordings and Negative Phase for others but I'm blowed if I'm going to change settings when listening to different albums.


----------



## tunes

Triode User said:


> I have HF Filter ON, Positive Phase (I use these settings on solo Dave as well as when linked to Mscaler).
> 
> Some claim they prefer Positive Phase for some recordings and Negative Phase for others but I'm blowed if I'm going to change settings when listening to different albums.


----------



## tunes

I just received my SR1a and JOT-R amp and before connecting to my DAVE HMS set up wanted to make sure the advice below is correct to avoid damage any component in the chain.  I assume the RCA cables go from the JOT-R input to the DAVE RCA outputs on either side of the XLR outputs??   Also, right now I have XLR outputs connected to my high efficiency speakers.   The XLR out is active to the speakers when there is nothing plugged into the headphone jack in the front.  But if I leave in the XLR cables to the speakers and have the JOT-R amp connected to the RCA outputs, when nothing is plugged into the headphone jack, do I have to unplug the speakers from the XLR outputs every time I listen to the SR1a????  Which DAVE analog output is active when both XLR and RCA are plugged in and headphone jack not used???

See below....

“With the Jotunheim R, if your DAC (or whatever source) has variable output, you can bypass the attenuation and use it simply as your “power” amp too. Simply turning the volume ALL the way up effectively turns the pot into straight wire.

DO make SURE your source has variable output, and that it is turned down, before doing this!

“Note that the Jotunheim R will be outputting exactly the same amount of power for the same output SPL regardless of whether you use its built-in volume control, or turn it all the way up and use your source for volume control. So no concerns about “running the amp flat out” or some such.”

Thanks for any advice!


----------



## astrostar59

The RCA and XLR and BOTH active if connected and the headphone socket is empty. Both are defeated if you insert a headphone jack.
According to your text on the Jotunheim, you can use DAVE's pot. So set DAVE as pre-amp mode, and run the Jot fully open.

Looks like you will have to disconnect your speakers each time, not so practical. You could buy a switching box for that, pretty cheap if you dig around, or make one.
Hope this helps.


----------



## tunes

astrostar59 said:


> The RCA and XLR and BOTH active if connected and the headphone socket is empty. Both are defeated if you insert a headphone jack.
> According to your text on the Jotunheim, you can use DAVE's pot. So set DAVE as pre-amp mode, and run the Jot fully open.
> 
> Looks like you will have to disconnect your speakers each time, not so practical. You could buy a switching box for that, pretty cheap if you dig around, or make one.
> Hope this helps.



Thanks

what do you mean by running DAVE in pre-amp mode?  Is there a selection for this on the remote control?


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> Thanks
> 
> what do you mean by running DAVE in pre-amp mode?  Is there a selection for this on the remote control?



From the Dave manual, 
"_When headphones are disconnected, it is possible to navigate between Pre-amplification Mode or DAC Mode by holding down the right and left menu buttons and allowing DAVE 3 seconds to change between modes_."

This engages the variable volume output (Pre Amp Mode) on Dave as opposed to the fixed volume output when in DAC Mode.


----------



## tunes

Triode User said:


> From the Dave manual,
> "_When headphones are disconnected, it is possible to navigate between Pre-amplification Mode or DAC Mode by holding down the right and left menu buttons and allowing DAVE 3 seconds to change between modes_."
> 
> This engages the variable volume output (Pre Amp Mode) on Dave as opposed to the fixed volume output when in DAC Mode.



Does it revert back automatically to DAC mode of another headphone is plugged into DAVE or do I have to reset back manually.


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> Does it revert back automatically to DAC mode of another headphone is plugged into DAVE or do I have to reset back manually.



I can't answer that because I have never ever plugged a set of headphones into my Dave but I suspect that inserting headphones would temporarily set Dave to Headphone mode and then when they are taken out Dave will revert to the Pre Amp or Dac Mode it was in prior to headphones. This is only a guess!!


----------



## PhenixS1970

Triode User said:


> I can't answer that because I have never ever plugged a set of headphones into my Dave but I suspect that inserting headphones would temporarily set Dave to Headphone mode and then when they are taken out Dave will revert to the Pre Amp or Dac Mode it was in prior to headphones. This is only a guess!!



That is indeed correct   Headphone volume output will also remain as used last time if you unplug/plug in a hp (So pre amp or dac mode volume is independently kept in memory).


----------



## audio_1 (Apr 15, 2020)

tunes said:


> Does it revert back automatically to DAC mode of another headphone is plugged into DAVE or do I have to reset back manually.


I believe from previous posts that cross feed in headphone mode has to be switched off when the headphones are still plugged in. If it isn't switched off, it will remain active when the headphones have been disconnected. This is not shown on the display.


----------



## F208Frank

audio_1 said:


> I believe from previous posts that cross feed in headphone mode has to be switched off when the headphones are still plugged in. If it isn't switched off, it will remain active when the headphones have been disconnected. This is not shown on the display.


But regarding that if we never plug in headphones ever, the cross feed would be by default off correct.


----------



## Triode User

F208Frank said:


> But regarding that if we never plug in headphones ever, the cross feed would be by default off correct.



Yes.


----------



## audio_1

F208Frank said:


> But regarding that if we never plug in headphones ever, the cross feed would be by default off correct.


Providing the Dave was supplied with it switched off.


----------



## AndrewOld

F208Frank said:


> But regarding that if we never plug in headphones ever, the cross feed would be by default off correct.


There’s no way of knowing that unless you check, or know what you are listening for.  The dealer who supplied it may have used headphones. You never know. I would check.


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> There’s no way of knowing that unless you check, or know what you are listening for.  The dealer who supplied it may have used headphones. You never know. I would check.



@F208Frank  my Dave was supplied from my dealer in a sealed box that had not been opened since it left the factory. Assuming your Dave was supplied new then the chances of it leaving the factory with cross feed set are probably effectively nil.


----------



## F208Frank

Triode User said:


> @F208Frank  my Dave was supplied from my dealer in a sealed box that had not been opened since it left the factory. Assuming your Dave was supplied new then the chances of it leaving the factory with cross feed set are probably effectively nil.


Yes mine was factory sealed as well and is brand new. Guess it does not hurt to buy a XLR to single ended adapter just to check.


----------



## Triode User

F208Frank said:


> Yes mine was factory sealed as well and is brand new. Guess it does not hurt to buy a XLR to single ended adapter just to check.



If you want to check then the way is to buy a headphone jack. Plug it in to the front socket on Dave and you will have access to the Crossfeed menu on the screen. I'm happy to bet $50 that it is set to no crossfeed!


----------



## SuperBurrito

Guys, question for you.  Right now I have the Focal Utopias, which are fantastic, but I think they may be a little polite for my tastes.  Does my Dave/M Scaler combo have enough power to run the Abyss Phi TC directly, or is a headphone amp necessary?  I'm hoping I can get away with switching headphones (to Abyss or something else) rather than adding an amp and headphones.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## jlbrach

you will likely want a good high quality amp if you use the abyss TC or Susvara or LCD-4 for that matter


----------



## SuperBurrito

jlbrach said:


> you will likely want a good high quality amp if you use the abyss TC or Susvara or LCD-4 for that matter


Thank you.  Right now I'm using my Dave as a preamp.  How do you hook up your Dave to a headphone amp and a power amp?  I wish the Dave had fixed outputs for a headphone amp, and variable outputs for a power amp.  But it seems I have to choose fixed or variable output for both amps.


----------



## F208Frank

Deleted.


----------



## GryphonGuy

SuperBurrito said:


> Guys, question for you.  Right now I have the Focal Utopias, which are fantastic, but I think they may be a little polite for my tastes.  Does my Dave/M Scaler combo have enough power to run the Abyss Phi TC directly, or is a headphone amp necessary?  I'm hoping I can get away with switching headphones (to Abyss or something else) rather than adding an amp and headphones.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



It's not your Focal Utopias, DAVE alone and Focal Utopias are sublime. It is a "problem" that you can hear with the transparent utopias that there is a problem in the Mscaler/DAVE hookup that I have experienced and prevented me from buying an Mscaler. So rather than throw out the baby with the bathwater, try spending money on the Mscaler/DAVE interaction to be less polite and more transparent as it should be.

Regards
GG


----------



## jlbrach

SuperBurrito said:


> Thank you.  Right now I'm using my Dave as a preamp.  How do you hook up your Dave to a headphone amp and a power amp?  I wish the Dave had fixed outputs for a headphone amp, and variable outputs for a power amp.  But it seems I have to choose fixed or variable output for both amps.



I have my formula s/powerman connected to my dave via the RCA out


----------



## F208Frank

So to Triode, I did test the cross feed on Dave and it does show up as zero as expected. Just to confirm this is off correct.


----------



## ekfc63

SuperBurrito said:


> Guys, question for you.  Right now I have the Focal Utopias, which are fantastic, but I think they may be a little polite for my tastes.  Does my Dave/M Scaler combo have enough power to run the Abyss Phi TC directly, or is a headphone amp necessary?  I'm hoping I can get away with switching headphones (to Abyss or something else) rather than adding an amp and headphones.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



i ran my TCs direct from Dave/MSc for quite a while before I added a Formula S/Powerman and was quite happy.  Once in a while I switch back and am not disappointed. It still sounds mighty fine.


----------



## Triode User

F208Frank said:


> So to Triode, I did test the cross feed on Dave and it does show up as zero as expected. Just to confirm this is off correct.



I guess my winnings from the bet are in the post already??


----------



## SuperBurrito

ekfc63 said:


> i ran my TCs direct from Dave/MSc for quite a while before I added a Formula S/Powerman and was quite happy.  Once in a while I switch back and am not disappointed. It still sounds mighty fine.


Thanks guys for your replies!


----------



## alota

Hi, two stupid questions.
Dave jas 6.35 or 3.5 mm. jack?
It is possible to connect android phone via otg adapter?
Thank you


----------



## audio_1 (Apr 18, 2020)

alota said:


> Hi, two stupid questions.
> Dave jas 6.35 or 3.5 mm. jack?
> It is possible to connect android phone via otg adapter?
> Thank you



Dave has a 6.3 mm headphone jack

It should be possible. I connect my Samsung S7 to Mojo with an OTG adapter. The only problem is that Android audio up-scales all audio irrespective of the original sample sample rate to 192 kHz 24. Unfortunately this can't be turned off. It isn't very transparent, and smooths the sound and reduces dynamics. I purchased an app, USB Audio Player Pro. This can be configured to output bit perfect native sample rate. USB Audio Player Pro also  supports Qobuz for streamed content. Offline Qobuz content is not supported.


----------



## alota

audio_1 said:


> Dave has a 6.3 mm headphone jack
> 
> It should be possible. I connect my Samsung S7 to Mojo with an OTG adapter. The only problem is that Android audio up-scales all audio irrespective of the original sample sample rate to 192 kHz 24. Unfortunately this can't be turned off. It isn't very transparent, and smooths the sound and reduces dynamics. I purchased an app, USB Audio Player Pro. This can be configured to output bit perfect native sample rate. USB Audio Player Pro also  supports Qobuz for streamed content. Offline Qobuz content is not supported.


thank you. about android i have usb audio player pro on my lg, therefore i also use the player in bit perfect mode


----------



## Lucky87

Just finally had a chance to listen to my new Dave with 100+ hours and it was a strange in the middle with one day sounding amazing 60 hours via headphones but then with my 2.0 setup sounded very bad. Then a 20 hours later 80 it was reversed 2.0 setup amazing and headphones sounding bad..  But now at the 100+ hour mark everything is perfect and I am extremely happy with it. I've owned and sold many DAC's and I always thought certain songs had problems in the recording or I just screwed up the converting tell the Dave. The Dave just chews through the music as it was made to do and the songs I thought had problems nope I assume my previous DAC's just could not process the music to it's full potential like the Dave.


----------



## Cafone

jlbrach said:


> you will likely want a good high quality amp if you use the abyss TC or Susvara or LCD-4 for that matter



How hard to drive is the Abyss TC compared to the LCD-4? I can easily drive my LCD-4 (200 Ohm drivers) out of the Dave - the headphone output level is usually around -20dB and I don't find it lacking in anything, including bass slam. I guess I don't listen that loud, so wondering if I could also drive the Abyss directly out of Dave.


----------



## Cafone

Does anybody know the power input requirements of Dave? I'm trying to figure out if it could match with an Audioquest Dragon Source cable, which allegedly can handle up to 10 amps RMS


----------



## Triode User

Cafone said:


> Does anybody know the power input requirements of Dave? I'm trying to figure out if it could match with an Audioquest Dragon Source cable, which allegedly can handle up to 10 amps RMS



I did know but I have forgotten. However it will be two tenths of b*gg*r all compared to the 10amps capacity of that cable. If the cable can supply say 2000 Watts then Dave is more likely to require about 30 Watts (wild guess). See what I mean?


----------



## ecwl

Cafone said:


> Does anybody know the power input requirements of Dave? I'm trying to figure out if it could match with an Audioquest Dragon Source cable, which allegedly can handle up to 10 amps RMS


I can’t imagine DAVE drawing more than 100W, definitely no more than 200W. So that’s 1-2 Amps at 110V. Whatever the power draw is, it’s definitely not 10 amps which is like 1100W. 
M-Scaler uses like 15W per Rob Watts the designer. I guess you can use that as a reference for my guestimate


----------



## ecwl

Cafone said:


> How hard to drive is the Abyss TC compared to the LCD-4? I can easily drive my LCD-4 (200 Ohm drivers) out of the Dave - the headphone output level is usually around -20dB and I don't find it lacking in anything, including bass slam. I guess I don't listen that loud, so wondering if I could also drive the Abyss directly out of Dave.


I have brought my DAVE to my local Head-fi meets a few times and somebody has an LCD-4. What I learnt Is that even though my listening volume is similar to yours at around -20dB (maybe slightly above) with that LCD-4, some other head-fiers were playing the same music at 20dB louder than me. this is pretty much true, regardless of the setup we use.
I also visit my stereo dealer quite often and with speaker setups, he and his customers usually listen at 10-15dB louder than me, sometimes even 20dB louder.
if you trust Abyss specifications, it is 9dB less sensitive than your LCD-4 so you’d have to listen at 9dB louder. Moreover, DAVE would need 4 times the wattage to drive the Abyss at the higher volume. But since DAVE is rated to be able to drive 33ohms at 6.8V, theoretically, it should work but no way to know until you try it. Btw, you need to use the headphone jack not the balanced XLR at the back because the impedance of the XLR output is higher.


----------



## jlbrach

Cafone said:


> How hard to drive is the Abyss TC compared to the LCD-4? I can easily drive my LCD-4 (200 Ohm drivers) out of the Dave - the headphone output level is usually around -20dB and I don't find it lacking in anything, including bass slam. I guess I don't listen that loud, so wondering if I could also drive the Abyss directly out of Dave.



I do not listen particularly loud but I listened to my lcd-4 out of my dave at between -15-0


----------



## jlbrach

ecwl said:


> I have brought my DAVE to my local Head-fi meets a few times and somebody has an LCD-4. What I learnt Is that even though my listening volume is similar to yours at around -20dB (maybe slightly above) with that LCD-4, some other head-fiers were playing the same music at 20dB louder than me. this is pretty much true, regardless of the setup we use.
> I also visit my stereo dealer quite often and with speaker setups, he and his customers usually listen at 10-15dB louder than me, sometimes even 20dB louder.
> if you trust Abyss specifications, it is 9dB less sensitive than your LCD-4 so you’d have to listen at 9dB louder. Moreover, DAVE would need 4 times the wattage to drive the Abyss at the higher volume. But since DAVE is rated to be able to drive 33ohms at 6.8V, theoretically, it should work but no way to know until you try it. Btw, you need to use the headphone jack not the balanced XLR at the back because the impedance of the XLR output is higher.



the abyss doesnt require more than 4 or 5 db using the dave relative to the lcd-4 at least in my experience....it is amazing how people listen at different volumes...I have been told by people that I listen at relatively low volumes yet with the dave I listen to the lcd-4 from -15 to 0......perhaps it is has to do with the source into the dave?


----------



## TheAttorney

Cafone said:


> Does anybody know the power input requirements of Dave? I'm trying to figure out if it could match with an Audioquest Dragon Source cable, which allegedly can handle up to 10 amps RMS


A long time ago, I measured it to be around 20W operational, and around 10W in standby. 
So the often stated 30W is probably a conservative figure to allow for worse case scenarios.
So no need for a beefy power cord in order to meet the power requirements, but IMO a good quality power cord will improve SQ.


----------



## ray-dude

Folks, I did a quick search but didn't see anything.  I'm experimenting with HQPlayer on Windows to upsample DSD64 content to DSD512 to DAVE (via the Chord ASIO driver).  When I do so, I'm seeing DAVE register the signal as DSD512, but I'm not hearing anything.  When I set the upsampling limit to 44.1k x 256, it very happily upsamples to DSD256 and plays.

I'm a newbie to Windows and the Chord ASIO driver.  Has anyone gotten DSD512 to work from Windows to DAVE?

Thanks!


----------



## musickid (Apr 20, 2020)

i have a demo dave on its way to compare to my tt2/hms. i'll be having a listen to dave mscaled too to see if it's a path for the future. for now it's dave solo or my tt2/hms through oppo's planar magnetic 1 headphone. this is a tough choice. right now i don't even know what i'm looking for not being familiar with dave. the mscaler does add undeniable energy and sparkle to the music. i can't really justify the cost of a dave _and_ another mscaler. if it's tracked delivery i might be doing live updates like i did with the mscaler.just for fun.


----------



## jcn3

ray-dude said:


> Folks, I did a quick search but didn't see anything.  I'm experimenting with HQPlayer on Windows to upsample DSD64 content to DSD512 to DAVE (via the Chord ASIO driver).  When I do so, I'm seeing DAVE register the signal as DSD512, but I'm not hearing anything.  When I set the upsampling limit to 44.1k x 256, it very happily upsamples to DSD256 and plays.
> 
> I'm a newbie to Windows and the Chord ASIO driver.  Has anyone gotten DSD512 to work from Windows to DAVE?
> 
> Thanks!



have you gotten it to work with another dac?  upsampling to dsd512 is processor intensive -- is your computer up to it?  check to see with the cpu utilization is in task manager.

if not, first thing i would do is upsample to dsd256 to make sure it works.  if it does, then try dsd512 again and change filters to see if you can get something to work.  if dsd256 works and dsd512 doesn't, then i would conclude your computer isn't up to the task.


----------



## ray-dude (Apr 21, 2020)

jcn3 said:


> have you gotten it to work with another dac?  upsampling to dsd512 is processor intensive -- is your computer up to it?  check to see with the cpu utilization is in task manager.
> 
> if not, first thing i would do is upsample to dsd256 to make sure it works.  if it does, then try dsd512 again and change filters to see if you can get something to work.  if dsd256 works and dsd512 doesn't, then i would conclude your computer isn't up to the task.



Thank you for the note. 

I have not yet tried it with my Chord TT2, but that is a good suggestion (thank you)

When going to DSD512, my CPU is below 10% (Xeon processors).  Stepping down the filters to less CPU intensive ones doesn't change things (HQP says DSD512, DAVE says DSD512, but no music plays).  Everything is fine when set to 44.1k x 256 (vs 44.1k x 512).

I'm fairly ignorant on the Windows side (and with the Chord ASIO driver), so I'm hoping it is something simple to get things going (and to make sure that I have the ASIO driver setup properly)

Does anyone know if there is a ASIO control panel for the Chord ASIO driver? (I'm not finding one)  Also, before I chase this rabbit too much further, has anyone gotten DSD512 to work with HQPlayer Desktop on Windows with the Chord ASIO driver to DAVE?


----------



## Mircea C.

Is there a way to use DBNC out of an HMS into a Dave and then DBNC out (DX out) of the Dave into a TT2 in order to use both dacs in the same time with the benefits of HMS? or maybe connect first TT2 and then the Dave? TT2 have also some connectors named DX output.


----------



## ray-dude

Mircea C. said:


> Is there a way to use DBNC out of an HMS into a Dave and then DBNC out (DX out) of the Dave into a TT2 in order to use both dacs in the same time with the benefits of HMS? or maybe connect first TT2 and then the Dave? TT2 have also some connectors named DX output.



Yes that works.  Note that the outputs of DAVE are not galvanically isolated, but I believe the inputs to TT2 are, so you should be fine.  When I was playing with this config WAY back in Blu2 days, there was a step down feeding the second DAVE from an mScaled DAVE vs direct.  TT2 will be much better.


----------



## Mircea C.

ray-dude said:


> Yes that works.  Note that the outputs of DAVE are not galvanically isolated, but I believe the inputs to TT2 are, so you should be fine.  When I was playing with this config WAY back in Blu2 days, there was a step down feeding the second DAVE from an mScaled DAVE vs direct.  TT2 will be much better.



Thanks! seems awesome. It was an idea to keep a TT2 and a Dave (which I don't have yet) but looks like I will have to sell my TT2 in order to get the Dave


----------



## Triode User

Mircea C. said:


> Is there a way to use DBNC out of an HMS into a Dave and then DBNC out (DX out) of the Dave into a TT2 in order to use both dacs in the same time with the benefits of HMS? or maybe connect first TT2 and then the Dave? TT2 have also some connectors named DX output.



Why would you want to do that? Surely a Dave owner would only ever want to listen to Dave and never to a TT2 having got the Dave.


----------



## Mircea C.

Triode User said:


> Why would you want to do that? Surely a Dave owner would only ever want to listen to Dave and never to a TT2 having got the Dave.



O, I don't know, I have never listen to a Dave yet (it will be a blind purchase based on many other's opinions including yours; looking for a used one). I was just wondering if it was possible. Seems like some people find the TT2 output with certain headphones preferable (warmer/more powerful?) to Dave. It should not be a problem for me as I mainly use Stax so there's another amp after the dac and the other headphones I have, are easily driven (Grado PS1000e and Audeze LCD XC, i4). 

I just find the TT2 such a great piece of gear and I am kind of sorry to part way with it but as you said, after getting a Dave it would probably be redundant and I should recover some of the money put in. I do like that the TT2 have 1/4 inch jacks in addition to the 3.5mm one. 

Will the headphone jack on the Dave allow a Grado 3.5mm to 1/4 inch adaptor (which is like 12.9mm thick) to be plugged in? Thank you!


----------



## GryphonGuy

Mircea C. said:


> O, I don't know, I have never listen to a Dave yet (it will be a blind purchase based on many other's opinions including yours; looking for a used one). I was just wondering if it was possible. Seems like some people find the TT2 output with certain headphones preferable (warmer/more powerful?) to Dave. It should not be a problem for me as I mainly use Stax so there's another amp after the dac and the other headphones I have, are easily driven (Grado PS1000e and Audeze LCD XC, i4).
> 
> I just find the TT2 such a great piece of gear and I am kind of sorry to part way with it but as you said, after getting a Dave it would probably be redundant and I should recover some of the money put in. I do like that the TT2 have 1/4 inch jacks in addition to the 3.5mm one.
> 
> Will the headphone jack on the Dave allow a Grado 3.5mm to 1/4 inch adaptor (which is like 12.9mm thick) to be plugged in? Thank you!



My Focal Utopia 1/4" male plug into the Dave's 1/4" female receptor is approx 13mm in diameter. So should be no problems at all.


----------



## jlbrach

dave is significantly better than tt2 unless you need to drive very inefficient HP's perhaps


----------



## Mircea C.

GryphonGuy said:


> My Focal Utopia 1/4" male plug into the Dave's 1/4" female receptor is approx 13mm in diameter. So should be no problems at all.



Thank you for your confirmation! I was actually asked the wrong question, I was under the impression that the Dave has a 3.5mm jack but I can now see is a 6.3mm on which is great. Yeey!


----------



## Mircea C.

jlbrach said:


> dave is significantly better than tt2 unless you need to drive very inefficient HP's perhaps



Thanks! I've just sold my TT2. Now I just need to find a nice used Dave. Nick's Stone cables are also coming on Monday


----------



## Mircea C.

I can see some older Daves are coming with a different remote control. Are there any differences between the units themselves (apart from different remote controls)? Are there different versions of Dave or is it safe to buy any one regarding of the remote is coming with? I wonder if I can buy a new style remote control from Chord if I'll pick a unit with an older remote?


----------



## Uncle Monty

Just traded up from a TT2 and it is quite a jump in SQ. I'm rubbish at describing how equipment sounds and compares to other equipment, lest to say that if you like the TT2 you'll love DAVE. It's got more of everything - more depth, more control - and sounds very natural. It even makes crap recordings enjoyable, which not all totl hifi does. 

Right now you'll get a great trade-in on your TT2  - quite close to half the price of a new DAVE.

If you can afford it, I say do it.


----------



## Triode User

Mircea C. said:


> I can see some older Daves are coming with a different remote control. Are there any differences between the units themselves (apart from different remote controls)? Are there different versions of Dave or is it safe to buy any one regarding of the remote is coming with? I wonder if I can buy a new style remote control from Chord if I'll pick a unit with an older remote?



I have one of the first Daves. It is identical to the current ones in all respects. Don't pay any attention to the remote, the Daves are all the same whatever the age. Buy a Dave and you will be getting the best.


----------



## Uncle Monty

Triode User said:


> I have one of the first Daves. It is identical to the current ones in all respects. Don't pay any attention to the remote, the Daves are all the same whatever the age. Buy a Dave and you will be getting the best.


We've got the same remote


----------



## Triode User

Yep! And I lost mine and had to buy another from Chord. It was just the same.


----------



## jlbrach

Uncle Monty said:


> Just traded up from a TT2 and it is quite a jump in SQ. I'm rubbish at describing how equipment sounds and compares to other equipment, lest to say that if you like the TT2 you'll love DAVE. It's got more of everything - more depth, more control - and sounds very natural. It even makes crap recordings enjoyable, which not all totl hifi does.
> 
> Right now you'll get a great trade-in on your TT2  - quite close to half the price of a new DAVE.
> 
> If you can afford it, I say do it.



to be honest I find well recorded albums to sound absolutely sublime on the dave and poorly recorded music to sound dreadful in that it mercilessly exposes the flaws but that is the way it is with recorded playback the better it is the more it exposes poor mastering and recording


----------



## iDesign (Apr 26, 2020)

There are some differences between DAVE models. Early units have a convex glass lens display and the remotes varied by the region they were distributed with different 49, 46, and 7 button versions. For example, North American units imported by Blue Bird were sold with the 46 button remote. You can verify this by doing a search of this thread or Google Images.


----------



## Triode User

Yes but those models with the glass difference were very early. The point is that I’m pretty sure that if one buys a second hand Dave then it will sound the same no matter how old it is and buyers don’t need to get too fussed about the age of the one they buy.


----------



## iDesign (Apr 27, 2020)

From a warranty perspective its also useful to understand the differences when purchasing secondhand. For example, in the US there are several persons selling heavily discounted UK versions of the DAVE through a backdoor and it is obvious by the 7 button remote supplied and missing power cord. The warranty is only valid within the region of original purchase. So, yes, they should be fussed about the one they buy.


----------



## Triode User

That is a good point about the region of original purchase from a warranty perspective. Also the warranty is transferable but requires the original receipt for it to be valid so second user purchasers should make sure they obtain this.


----------



## Uncle Monty

jlbrach said:


> to be honest I find well recorded albums to sound absolutely sublime on the dave and poorly recorded music to sound dreadful in that it mercilessly exposes the flaws but that is the way it is with recorded playback the better it is the more it exposes poor mastering and recording


Yes and no - the really bad ones are probably made worse but the DAVE's ability to tighten the sound helps on others.


----------



## Mircea C.

Triode User said:


> I have one of the first Daves. It is identical to the current ones in all respects. Don't pay any attention to the remote, the Daves are all the same whatever the age. Buy a Dave and you will be getting the best.



Thank you Nick. Got one  Waiting now for payment to be cleared in order to arrange shipment. Can't wait  It looks like is coming with a new(er) remote.


----------



## Triode User

Mircea C. said:


> Thank you Nick. Got one  Waiting now for payment to be cleared in order to arrange shipment. Can't wait  It looks like is coming with a new(er) remote.



Cool! Welcome to the world of Dave. You will not regret it.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

iDesign said:


> I have experience with the dCS Rossini, Vivaldi, MSB Select, Yggdrasil, and numerous ESS 9018 based DACs to name a few. Purchased the DAVE and Blu Mk II. Case closed.
> 
> Never tested the totaldac but that seems moot now.


Are there any differences in the upscaling of the Blu Mk II and the MScaler?


----------



## iDesign (Apr 28, 2020)

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Are there any differences in the upscaling of the Blu Mk II and the MScaler?


No, if you don't count the i/o differences and pass through option.


----------



## musickid

i'm on the verge of trading my tt2/hms for a dave right now as i type. unlikely i'll add an mscaler to dave for headphone listening due to cost. any last minute guidance here as i'm feeling a touch anxious.


----------



## ZappaMan

musickid said:


> i'm on the verge of trading my tt2/hms for a dave right now as i type. unlikely i'll add an mscaler to dave for headphone listening due to cost. any last minute guidance here as i'm feeling a touch anxious.


do you have to pay more money on top ?

life a journey, cash in, make a change, no regrets !


----------



## musickid

less than 2k. it is a great deal.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT (Apr 28, 2020)

musickid said:


> i'm on the verge of trading my tt2/hms for a dave right now as i type. unlikely i'll add an mscaler to dave for headphone listening due to cost. any last minute guidance here as i'm feeling a touch anxious.


I was thinking about doing the same thing.  I was listening to the TT2 without the MScaler for a couple of days and tried to convince myself it sounded just as good.  I put it back in and realized I was deluding myself.  I read several Dave reviews and they waxed on that it was so much better with the Blu.  You can alway get the Mscaler or Blu later.  You should just jump out of the window and do it.  At some point you can always get the upscaler; maybe if it takes awhile the new Dave or whatever will be out.  You want to try something new is all (upgraditis).


----------



## musickid (Apr 30, 2020)

I've decided to keep the mscaler/tt2. the mscaler adds sparkle and energy to the music. without it the music doesn't grip me as much. i can't let go of it. now i can look for some top grade headphones too.


----------



## Triode User

musickid said:


> I've decided to keep the mscaler/tt2. the mscaler adds sparkle and energy to the music. without it the muisc doesn't grip me as much. i can't let go off it. now i can look for some top grade headphones too.



was this in your home demo comparison with the Dave? If so did you give in to temptation and plug the MScaler into the Dave?


----------



## musickid (Apr 29, 2020)

The desire to own a dave isn't powerful enough for me to give up my mscaler. The TT2 without the mscaler is fundamentally lacking in a quality which is hard to put into words. I can't say for certain that i would be able to push for another mscaler to add to a dave if i went that way. We are now venturing into a £12K digital audio headphone system plus the scaffolding to hold it up. Maybe in the near future.......


----------



## Triode User (Apr 29, 2020)

Having had a swop around in my system I have been listening to solo Dave for the last week whilst I try to work out where to place the mscaler (the MScaler is silver and the rest of the system is black - don’t ask how I ended up with that but if you have a black one you want to swop please get in touch!). I have been appreciating again just how good is solo Dave. The texture of the notes is superb. It also has a lightness of touch to the details and yet really gets a grip in the detailed bass.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

iDesign said:


> No, if you don't count the i/o differences and pass through option.


The Dave has a setting by which one can select between DSD or PCM in the settings.  Some say there is an appreciable difference when selecting the correct one for the format.

"The M Scaler will not upscale DSD sources natively. All DSD data will be converted to PCM before being upscaled. DSD64 will be converted to 192K PCM and then upscaled to the desired amount by using the OP SR button. DSD128 will be converted to 384k PCM and then upscaled to the desired sample rate using the OP SR button. DSD256 will be converted to 768k PCM and will not be upscaled."

Does the Blu do the same thing to DSD?  If so, have you listened to DSD on the solo Dave with both (PCM/DSD) settings and what could you hear?


----------



## Amberlamps

musickid said:


> I've decided to keep the mscaler/tt2. the mscaler adds sparkle and energy to the music. without it the muisc doesn't grip me as much. i can't let go off it. now i can look for some top grade headphones too.



Alot of folk think tt2 is where it's at. Alot of inputs, more power and not as expensive as dave.

Dave may be chords primo dac, but tt2 is the better all rounder imho.

MK, my advice would be to wait and keep your mtt2 and see what chords next move is. Plus not being able to turn dave's screen off would drive me nuts, tt2's screen and volume ball is leet, but the mscalers balls bugs the schiit out of me, I know there is a "dim" function built in to the mscaler, but there really is a need for the led's to be turned off completely.

I'm sure that once new users figure out how things work, that they could easily use it without the lights being on, if not, they could enable them again and then turn them off once they change whatever settings they need to change.

I'm with you MK, our setups are so good that upgrading to a dave, is actually a downgrade to what you have already.


----------



## Triode User

Amberlamps said:


> Plus not being able to turn dave's screen off would drive me nuts



The 'Display 4' setting on Dave automatically turns Dave's screen off after a short delay.


----------



## ecwl

CRITICALSHOT said:


> The Dave has a setting by which one can select between DSD or PCM in the settings.  Some say there is an appreciable difference when selecting the correct one for the format.
> 
> "The M Scaler will not upscale DSD sources natively. All DSD data will be converted to PCM before being upscaled. DSD64 will be converted to 192K PCM and then upscaled to the desired amount by using the OP SR button. DSD128 will be converted to 384k PCM and then upscaled to the desired sample rate using the OP SR button. DSD256 will be converted to 768k PCM and will not be upscaled."
> 
> Does the Blu do the same thing to DSD?  If so, have you listened to DSD on the solo Dave with both (PCM/DSD) settings and what could you hear?


Blu2 does the same thing as M-Scaler to DSD source files. However, while it is truly with solo DAVE, playing DSD mode is superior in DSD mode to PCM mode, when you play DSD music through M-Scaler, even though the music is downconverted to 705.4kHz PCM and fed to DAVE, the sound of M-Scaler + DAVE is superior with DSD files is definitely superior to playing the same file in DSD mode straight through the DAVE (without M-Scaler/Blu2). This is because the M-Scaler DSD to PCM conversion is far superior to the DAVE DSD to PCM conversion and to the DAVE DSD mode direct upconversion.

Keep in mind too, this whole concept that some DACs play DSD natively to me is a complete lie. First, since most DSD files are DSD64, most “DSD” DACs at least upsample the DSD64 signal to DSD256 or DSD512. Moreover, they often use a shift register which in itself is a filter of sorts and they use multiple elements so it’s not true that you’re getting a 1-element DSD64 native playback in almost all DACs that are out there. Finally, if a DAC truly plays back DSD64 natively, you’re going to get an analog filter which would affect the sound significantly to filter out the high frequency noise inherent in native DSD64 signal and the analog filter performance is generally quite poor and variable from DAC to DAC. So there is nothing magical or native about DSD playback. Unless you’re going to go back to the old SACD players from decades ago which actually don’t sound that great by modern standards due to more jitter, lack of filtering (shift register/multi-element), etc.


----------



## iDesign (Apr 29, 2020)

Even in mode four the screen needlessly illuminates momentarily whenever it receives a signal or the sample rate changes. I agree with Amberlamps that there should be a fifth mode to deactivate the display entirely.



CRITICALSHOT said:


> The Dave has a setting by which one can select between DSD or PCM in the settings.  Some say there is an appreciable difference when selecting the correct one for the format.
> 
> "The M Scaler will not upscale DSD sources natively. All DSD data will be converted to PCM before being upscaled. DSD64 will be converted to 192K PCM and then upscaled to the desired amount by using the OP SR button. DSD128 will be converted to 384k PCM and then upscaled to the desired sample rate using the OP SR button. DSD256 will be converted to 768k PCM and will not be upscaled."
> 
> Does the Blu do the same thing to DSD?  If so, have you listened to DSD on the solo Dave with both (PCM/DSD) settings and what could you hear?


Yes the Blu Mk II does the same as @ecwl explains in his excellent post. When I first purchased my DAVE I did some listening tests with DSD recordings but that was very long ago. I would estimate less than 1% of the albums in my collection of about 60k physical CDs are DSD or SACD. I’m afraid I rarely listen to albums in DSD format and don’t have strong convictions about the sound.


----------



## Triode User

I guess I don't look at the screen that much so for me it isn't a big deal.


----------



## Amberlamps (Apr 29, 2020)

Triode User said:


> The 'Display 4' setting on Dave automatically turns Dave's screen off after a short delay.



Ahk, I read on here not that long ago, that the display on dave was always on.

Anyway, I still wish I could turn my balls off.


----------



## F208Frank

Triode User said:


> I guess I don't look at the screen that much so for me it isn't a big deal.


Would you be able to live with solo Dave without m scaler after having it in your chain prior?

Serious question.

I got both m scaler and dave at same time so I never had solo Dave by itself for too long.


----------



## audio_1

Amberlamps said:


> Ahk, I read on here not that long ago, that the display on dave was always on.
> 
> Anyway, I still wish I could turn my balls off.



I like the way Dave is programmed so that on display setting 4, the display automatically turns on for a few seconds when it receives a remote command or button press. It allows one to see the volume level or source when they are being changed. Unfortunately the mute button doesn't switch on the display when Dave is muted or un-muted. Multiple button presses are required if Dave is silent to discover if it is muted or the playback source has been paused.


----------



## Uncle Monty

If the MScaler converts DSD to PCM, should the DAVE then be set to 'PCM plus' when connected to an MScaler?


----------



## miketlse

musickid said:


> I've decided to keep the mscaler/tt2. the mscaler adds sparkle and energy to the music. without it the muisc doesn't grip me as much. i can't let go off it. now i can look for some top grade headphones too.


I know i may be paddling against the flow, but here goes.
I have the impression for a long time, that half of you says get DAVE, and half says no.
I just want you to make the right long term decision - and i fear that keeping mscaler/tt2 may not satisfy you for more than a few months.
Then we will be back to you posting 'what shall I do'?
In reality this is a minor issue compared to the grief people are experiencing with Covid, but I sincerely wish that you could find your true long term solution.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT (Apr 29, 2020)

Uncle Monty said:


> If the MScaler converts DSD to PCM, should the DAVE then be set to 'PCM plus' when connected to an MScaler?


The PCM and DSD settings have a different filter for each, which is best for the appropriate format.  Since the Scaler converts DSD to PCM; PCM is the setting to chose.

"I didn't really mention DSD, as it was OK, but it was also obvious that this DAC was optimized for PCM performance. That is true even if it features separate filters for DSD playback. One can read in article titled _Chord Electronics DAC technology notes in association with Rob Watts_, available on Chords Electronics' site that company highly values DSD format. But they also consider PCM DXD format as the one offering best sound quality. With dCS Rossini DSD files offered better performance and so they did with Mytek DACs. DAVE on the other hand is a remarkable DAC for PCM files, offering (via USB input) a higher quality performance than almost any other device I'd listened before. Only some top CD and SACD Players were able to provide even high quality sound. And, to be perfectly honest, I can't even be perfectly sure that it is true…"


----------



## Uncle Monty

CRITICALSHOT said:


> The PCM and DSD settings have a different filter for each, which is best for the appropriate format.  Since the Scaler converts DSD to PCM; PCM is the setting to chose.


Thanks - that's what I thought.

Got a bit confused because my server is set to DSD, though I think I can change this in its settings somewhere - do you think I should change its output to PCM or just let the MScaler do the converting?


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Uncle Monty said:


> Thanks - that's what I thought.
> 
> Got a bit confused because my server is set to DSD, though I think I can change this in its settings somewhere - do you think I should change its output to PCM or just let the MScaler do the converting?


I would 100% change it if possible.  What server is it so I can help?


----------



## Uncle Monty (Apr 30, 2020)

Antipodes cx/ex running Roon

USB to MS

I've changed the EX to 'PCM' but it shouldn't really matter as the 'DSD' setting still outputs PCM files as is anyway - only difference is any DSD files will be converted by the EX and not the MS.

*Edit - I set it to 'none' (there's no 'PCM' setting as such) - "If your DAC supports DSD select DoP. Otherwize select none and Roon Server will transcode DSD to PCM."

Someone should start an online degree course in understanding your stereo...it used to be just putting a needle in a groove..

**Edit 2 - following ECWL's advice, have now set EX/Roon to DoP...I remember when the only option I had was the volume control..


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Dave here I come!  The Mscaler is listed for sale and the TT2 will be listed tomorrow.  The Aqua La Scala MKII Optologic DAC is also up for sale, but is now connected in the mean time.  That damn fancy Dave Stand is also calling my name but it's pricey!  Who has the stand?  
https://aquahifi.com/file/datasheet/LaScala_Optologic_datasheet_EN.pdf


----------



## iDesign (Apr 29, 2020)

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Dave here I come!  The Mscaler is listed for sale and the TT2 will be listed tomorrow.  The Aqua La Scala MKII Optologic DAC is also up for sale, but is now connected in the mean time.  That damn fancy Dave Stand is also calling my name but it's pricey!  Who has the stand?
> https://aquahifi.com/file/datasheet/LaScala_Optologic_datasheet_EN.pdf


The stands are a cosmetic accessory and were not specifically designed to isolate vibrations (hence why Chord makes no mention of it on their website). Some Head-Fi members with custom cables stated they could not use the headphone input with the optional short legs. Others pointed out the rear inputs of the DAVE were much more prone to stress/strain when using heavy cables since the rear i/o are raised and angled from the surface. I feel Chord’s pricing for the Ensemble stands is too high and they should have looked at other designs or manufacturing options. It would at least be nice if they were a standard size and could be used with future Chord products.

Note the tight clearance between the headphone cable relative to the surface.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

iDesign said:


> The stands are a cosmetic accessory and were not specifically designed to isolate vibrations (hence why Chord makes no mention of it on their website). Some Head-Fi members with custom cables stated they could not use the headphone input with the optional short legs. I feel Chord’s pricing for the Ensemble stands is too high and they should have looked at other designs or manufacturing options. It would at least be nice if they were a standard size and could be used with future Chord products.
> 
> Note the tight clearance between the headphone cable relative to the surface.


You made a good point.  I can see that people could have issues with clearance but it sure is purty.


----------



## ecwl

Uncle Monty said:


> If the MScaler converts DSD to PCM, should the DAVE then be set to 'PCM plus' when connected to an MScaler?


It actually doesn’t matter. When M-Scaler is sending DAVE DSD converted to 705.4kHz PCM signals, DAVE’s DSD/PCM+ filter is not in use. The 705.4kHz PCM signal is just upconverted to 5-bit 104MHz and noise shaped through the 20-element pulse array DAC.

Of note, if DAVE is set to PCM+ mode, when it gets PCM 44kHz signal for example, the 164,000 taps filter is in use to upconvert to 705.4kHz first. If it gets a DSD signal, the “inferior to M-scaler“ DSD to PCM conversion occurs to 705.4kHz first.

If DAVE is set to DSD mode, when it gets PCM 44kHz signal, the 82,000 taps filter will be used to upconvert to 705.4kHz first. If it gets a DSD signal, it’ll directly convert to 5-bit 104MHz


----------



## ecwl

Uncle Monty said:


> Antipodes cx/ex running Roon
> 
> USB to MS
> 
> ...


Hmm... No. It sounds like You should set it back to ‘DoP’ then?

This is because if M-Scaler can accept DSD. And the M-Scaler DSD to PCM conversion is far superior to the Roon server DSD to PCM conversion. If you don’t believe me, try it out for yourself. I’ve tested this myself.
So for playing DSD files, you want EX to send the original DSD file via DoP into M-Scaler.

And as you said, it sounds like when you have a PCM file, it doesn’t matter whether it’s set to DoP or None, the file will still be sent as a PCM file to M-Scaler. You can obviously confirm this using the 4th light from the left (3rd from the right). If M-Scaler is getting native DSD file, it should be white. If it’s getting PCM, it’s whatever color the PCM file is, e.g. Red is 44kHz...


----------



## jlbrach

iDesign said:


> The stands are a cosmetic accessory and were not specifically designed to isolate vibrations (hence why Chord makes no mention of it on their website). Some Head-Fi members with custom cables stated they could not use the headphone input with the optional short legs. Others pointed out the rear inputs of the DAVE were much more prone to stress/strain when using heavy cables since the rear i/o are raised and angled from the surface. I feel Chord’s pricing for the Ensemble stands is too high and they should have looked at other designs or manufacturing options. It would at least be nice if they were a standard size and could be used with future Chord products.
> 
> Note the tight clearance between the headphone cable relative to the surface.


the stand is actually quite nice and well made but yes the headphone out doesnt leave much room for some cables.....all in all though I am happy with it


----------



## koven

jlbrach said:


> the stand is actually quite nice and well made but yes the headphone out doesnt leave much room for some cables.....all in all though I am happy with it



I recall my aftermarket power cords sagging w/ the stand due to the weight at angle. Had to use some cable riser behind it.


----------



## Mediahound

If I had a DAVE, I'd forego the stand for sure. The angles are all wrong. Even for the BNC cables, it makes them have to bend down at too much of an angle, etc.


----------



## koven

Mediahound said:


> If I had a DAVE, I'd forego the stand for sure. The angles are all wrong. Even for the BNC cables, it makes them have to bend down at too much of an angle, etc.



Agree.. I got suckered by the looks I suppose. If I grab a DAVE again in the future I'd skip the stand.


----------



## F208Frank

koven said:


> Agree.. I got suckered by the looks I suppose. If I grab a DAVE again in the future I'd skip the stand.


Koven, how did you feel the isotek affecting your sound after you added it? The only thing I ever tried power related was the power plant by ps audio and it did me not much good. Am curious how you feel about the Isotek as I heard many great things about them.


----------



## koven (Apr 30, 2020)

F208Frank said:


> Koven, how did you feel the isotek affecting your sound after you added it? The only thing I ever tried power related was the power plant by ps audio and it did me not much good. Am curious how you feel about the Isotek as I heard many great things about them.



The first two I tried many years ago were a Power Plant Premier and Torus TOT Mini. I recall my system sounded worse [thinner] w/ the PPP and no difference w/ the TOT Mini. Not a great initial impression and I didn't bother w/ power for a while. Last year the AQ Niagara hype got me and I tried out the Niagara 1000. I wasn't necessarily floored but I could definitely hear an improvement, more so than any interconnect or headphone cable changes. This year I switched to the IsoTek Aquarius after doing an in-home demo. I plugged into the wall vs Aquarius vs Niagara many times during this trial and I'm fully convinced Aquarius is making a noticeable difference, more so than Niagara. Take that anecdotally though as it wasn't a double blind test or anything. I'm quite aware of the anti-power camp's arguments and I generally try to stay adverse to snake oil but I have to concede I hear a difference when it comes to power tweaks. A more expensive option I'd love to try later on would be the IsoTek Sigmas or Inakustik AC-3500P. MusicDirect carries IsoTek and they have a 100% (less shipping) return, give it a shot you got nothing to lose.


----------



## audio_1

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Dave here I come!  The Mscaler is listed for sale and the TT2 will be listed tomorrow.  The Aqua La Scala MKII Optologic DAC is also up for sale, but is now connected in the mean time.  That damn fancy Dave Stand is also calling my name but it's pricey!  Who has the stand?
> https://aquahifi.com/file/datasheet/LaScala_Optologic_datasheet_EN.pdf



Why would you sell the Mscaler, and then buy a stand for the Dave? use the funds to keep the Mscaler. Makes no sense!


----------



## Uncle Monty

audio_1 said:


> Why would you sell the Mscaler, and then buy a stand for the Dave? use the funds to keep the Mscaler. Makes no sense!


100% agree - keep the MScaler and forget the stand.

Also - before listing the TT2 for sale, speak to a Chord dealer about trade-in - you might be surprised...


----------



## Triode User

Uncle Monty said:


> 100% agree - keep the MScaler and forget the stand.
> 
> Also - before listing the TT2 for sale, speak to a Chord dealer about trade-in - you might be surprised...



I also agree about forgetting the stand and putting the money towards sound quality instead, ie keeping the mscaler. I am not aware that the stand is anything more than eye candy.

Also yes, dealers can offer good trade in prices so that is worth asking theh question but equally most will give a really attractive discount off list price if there is no trade in. 

The other option is to sell TT2 privately and buy Dave second hand which is worth considering.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT (Apr 30, 2020)

audio_1 said:


> Why would you sell the Mscaler, and then buy a stand for the Dave? use the funds to keep the Mscaler. Makes no sense!


I am not sure what I typed, but I would get the Dave first and then the Blu.  The stands would come once I am happy with the sound and get off this merry go round!  Sorry I gave that impression. Lastly I would like to have the Blu opposed to the MScaler (strictly for cosmetics/cd player).


----------



## miketlse

CRITICALSHOT said:


> I am not sure what I typed, but I would get the Dave first and then the Blu.  The stands would come once I am happy with the sound and get off this merry go round!  Sorry I gave that impression. Lastly I would like to have the Blu opposed to the MScaler (strictly for cosmetics/cd player).


Where will you get the Blu2? Chord have finished production.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT (Apr 30, 2020)

miketlse said:


> Where will you get the Blu2? Chord have finished production.


It will turn up on the used market.

Edit:  I purchased the Dave earlier today, I just got a call from the dealer and he advised me that he could get the Blu2 new or used for me.


----------



## musickid

congratulations.


----------



## SuperBurrito

F208Frank said:


> Koven, how did you feel the isotek affecting your sound after you added it? The only thing I ever tried power related was the power plant by ps audio and it did me not much good. Am curious how you feel about the Isotek as I heard many great things about them.


I used to be 100% skeptical about power and don't know about the isotek.  But in my system for sure power cables/power strip/power outlet made a very positive difference.  Once I brought home a few power cables from my local dealer and my wife who is not an audiophile at all could easily blind pick a favorite.  It was not even close, and these were pretty cheap cables vs. stock.


----------



## koven

SuperBurrito said:


> Once I brought home a few power cables from my local dealer and my wife who is not an audiophile at all could easily blind pick a favorite.



It must be nice to have a SO who is supportive of this 'hobby'. My girlfriend treasures her AirPods and thinks I'm a moron.


----------



## musickid

is the comfort good on mdr z1r. i ordered some today.


----------



## F208Frank

Just curious and I am not even sure if I am allowed to ask this, what are used prices of DAVE floating around for? I got mine new and was just curious. I am not in market to ever sell mine FYI.

I am asking because I rarely if ever see them listed on head-fi, but yet I always see members once in a while talking about used DAVEs floating around.

Sorry for the temporary mindless banter in advance.


----------



## koven (May 1, 2020)

F208Frank said:


> Just curious and I am not even sure if I am allowed to ask this, what are used prices of DAVE floating around for? I got mine new and was just curious. I am not in market to ever sell mine FYI.
> 
> I am asking because I rarely if ever see them listed on head-fi, but yet I always see members once in a while talking about used DAVEs floating around.
> 
> Sorry for the temporary mindless banter in advance.



6-7K USD

www.hifishark.com

You can get them new well below MAP from some dealers, like most products.


----------



## Triode User

F208Frank said:


> Just curious and I am not even sure if I am allowed to ask this, what are used prices of DAVE floating around for? I got mine new and was just curious. I am not in market to ever sell mine FYI.
> 
> I am asking because I rarely if ever see them listed on head-fi, but yet I always see members once in a while talking about used DAVEs floating around.
> 
> Sorry for the temporary mindless banter in advance.



I can only speak for the UK and they seem to go for just under or just over £6k UKP.


----------



## F208Frank (May 1, 2020)

Ok, cool thanks for the responses guys. I feel like the DAVE is like the most popular appreciated item amongst the head fi community. I always found this to be intriguing as I always felt amps made the bigger difference in the chain.

I tried so many years to avoid getting it due to its price tag, but the overwhelming amounts of feedback for it made me too curious.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

iDesign said:


> The stands are a cosmetic accessory and were not specifically designed to isolate vibrations (hence why Chord makes no mention of it on their website). Some Head-Fi members with custom cables stated they could not use the headphone input with the optional short legs. Others pointed out the rear inputs of the DAVE were much more prone to stress/strain when using heavy cables since the rear i/o are raised and angled from the surface. I feel Chord’s pricing for the Ensemble stands is too high and they should have looked at other designs or manufacturing options. It would at least be nice if they were a standard size and could be used with future Chord products.
> 
> Note the tight clearance between the headphone cable relative to the surface.


After checking the pricing and availability of these Chord Ensemble Stands.  I see that one could buy the tall stand for the Dave and have plenty of clearance.


----------



## iDesign (May 1, 2020)

CRITICALSHOT said:


> After checking the pricing and availability of these Chord Ensemble Stands.  I see that one could buy the tall stand for the Dave and have plenty of clearance.


Yes in my first post I stated “optional” short legs. You are correct that Chord offers the legs in three heights and colors. If you used the tall legs, it would also serve to raise the rear i/o even higher from the surface, significantly increase the flex angle of the cables, and put more stress on the connections. And subjectively it would look odd to use the tall legs because that would create too much clearance. On another note, I personally feel having the the DAVE and Blu Mk II stacked looks like a tragic and expensive George Orwell shrine from 1984.


----------



## SuperBurrito

koven said:


> It must be nice to have a SO who is supportive of this 'hobby'. My girlfriend treasures her AirPods and thinks I'm a moron.


Well, she would never spend the money herself on audio gear no matter how good it sounds, but is fine with me doing so.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

iDesign said:


> Yes in my first post I stated “optional” short legs. You are correct that Chord offers the legs in three heights and colors. If you used the tall legs, it would also serve to raise the rear i/o even higher from the surface, significantly increase the flex angle of the cables, and put more stress on the connections. And subjectively it would look odd to use the tall legs because that would create too much clearance. On another note, I personally feel having the the DAVE and Blu Mk II stacked looks like a tragic and expensive George Orwell shrine from 1984.


"Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them."


----------



## Uncle Monty

Orwell you say?

If you want a vision of the future, imagine Rob Watts raiding my wallet - forever...


----------



## Amberlamps

iDesign said:


> Yes in my first post I stated “optional” short legs. You are correct that Chord offers the legs in three heights and colors. If you used the tall legs, it would also serve to raise the rear i/o even higher from the surface, significantly increase the flex angle of the cables, and put more stress on the connections. And subjectively it would look odd to use the tall legs because that would create too much clearance. On another note, I personally feel having the the DAVE and Blu Mk II stacked looks like a tragic and expensive George Orwell shrine from 1984.



I'll tell you what's tragic.

A Black Dave! 

A black dave should be listed in the Geneva Convention and or the Hague as a war crime.


----------



## iDesign (May 1, 2020)

Amberlamps said:


> I'll tell you what's tragic.
> 
> A Black Dave!
> 
> A black dave should be listed in the Geneva Convention and or the Hague as a war crime.


Its a matter of personal preference. The sales figures for black DAVE and Blu Mk II units as well as the higher resale values for them speak for themselves.


----------



## Amberlamps

iDesign said:


> Its a matter of personal preference. The sales figures for black DAVE and Blu Mk II units as well as the higher resale values for them speak for themselves.



Never seen any figures relating to sales of them, I just think and this may sound bad, but I think a silver dave is sexy, it just looks right.

But I will say I have some love for my black Mscaler and TT2.

I'm like benetton for 2020, I have love for all colours, except for a black dave.


----------



## koven

Amberlamps said:


> I have love for all colours, except for a black dave.



That sounds like a... systemic bias. Just kidding.


----------



## seaice

Amberlamps said:


> I'll tell you what's tragic.
> 
> A Black Dave!
> 
> A black dave should be listed in the Geneva Convention and or the Hague as a war crime.



So finally, you are not interested in trading your black TT2 for my black Dave for free. Very good news to me!


----------



## Amberlamps

seaice said:


> So finally, you are not interested in trading your black TT2 for my black Dave for free. Very good news to me!



I can make an exception in your case.


----------



## xiaobao0707

Hi guys, I'm sure this must have been asked before. But it is just too much to dig in all the messages. 

I right now am using Dave + M Scaler, right out of Dave's headphone jacket. I personally find this amazing, with incredible amount of details and the timbers are just right. But somehow will a good quality amp make it better? I generally enjoy classics and jazz. Thank you!


----------



## ecwl

xiaobao0707 said:


> Hi guys, I'm sure this must have been asked before. But it is just too much to dig in all the messages.
> 
> I right now am using Dave + M Scaler, right out of Dave's headphone jacket. I personally find this amazing, with incredible amount of details and the timbers are just right. But somehow will a good quality amp make it better? I generally enjoy classics and jazz. Thank you!


IMHO, no. Because I mostly listen to speaker systems, I have not been able to find an amplifier that is as transparent as the DAVE headphone jack. My Chord Etude is very close and the best I’ve tried and heard though. I think unless your headphones have low sensitivity and need more power, you’re always going to get the most transparent sound off the headphone jack. However, there are definitely some on this thread that disagrees with me. While I personally think their headphone amplifier are adding some euphonic distortions and sacrificing some transparency and accuracy, I actually don’t really know what I’m talking about since I don’t own other headphone amplifiers to compare. So my suggestion is that if you have money lying around and time, try some headphone amps? If you don’t, just enjoy the music. Like I’m doing right now with my Focal Utopia headphones (because I don’t want to disturb my neighbours in my apartment)


----------



## Cafone

xiaobao0707 said:


> Hi guys, I'm sure this must have been asked before. But it is just too much to dig in all the messages.
> 
> I right now am using Dave + M Scaler, right out of Dave's headphone jacket. I personally find this amazing, with incredible amount of details and the timbers are just right. But somehow will a good quality amp make it better? I generally enjoy classics and jazz. Thank you!





ecwl said:


> IMHO, no. Because I mostly listen to speaker systems, I have not been able to find an amplifier that is as transparent as the DAVE headphone jack. My Chord Etude is very close and the best I’ve tried and heard though. I think unless your headphones have low sensitivity and need more power, you’re always going to get the most transparent sound off the headphone jack. However, there are definitely some on this thread that disagrees with me. While I personally think their headphone amplifier are adding some euphonic distortions and sacrificing some transparency and accuracy, I actually don’t really know what I’m talking about since I don’t own other headphone amplifiers to compare. So my suggestion is that if you have money lying around and time, try some headphone amps? If you don’t, just enjoy the music. Like I’m doing right now with my Focal Utopia headphones (because I don’t want to disturb my neighbours in my apartment)



I agree. I have an LCD-4 (200 Ohm) and compared driving it directly out of Dave vs out of Violectric HPA V280 (with Dave as the DAC): Dave direct was clearly better in all aspects, including bass handling, so I sold the amp. 

I'm guessing that only for the Susvara/HE-6 and perhaps the Abyss you need a amp in order to drive them properly. For all other headphones, adding an amp just adds distortion and coloration in my opinion, which of course isn't necessarily a bad thing.


----------



## JTbbb

Hello, I have a Dave on demo for a couple of weeks and I’ve pretty much got my head around the menu system. But for the life of me I cannot find how to change the gain (volume) range, high/low. I am in Amp mode. I guess I’m missing something simple!


----------



## ecwl

So I first noticed this with my Mojo. When I listen to headphones, I always use Crossfeed 3 with the Focal Utopia. I tried to mimic this with Mojo by using the same crossfeed setting in Roon (700Hz 4.5dB) and I noticed a loss in transparency with that setup but I don’t know how much is Roon and how much is the crossfeed simply changing the sonic signature and frequency response.
Since I have my headphones on, I tested this with DAVE (and M-Scaler). And indeed, doing the crossfeed with Roon does lead to a very subtle loss in low-level detail and the sound of instruments just seemed minimally less realistic presumably because of that subtle low-level detail loss. Now, I used to term very subtle because if I were to give a grade of sound quality of DAVE crossfeed as 100%, I would give the Roon crossfeed as 98%. I don’t know whether the reason is that Roon executes the crossfeed at 44.1kHz whereas DAVE does it at 705.6kHz. Or whether it’s because Roon’s dithering is inferior to DAVE. I suspect it’s likely both.
The reason why I brought it up is that I’ve always known in my speaker system that because I have to use room correction (after optimally setting up the speakers and seating without turning my living room into a studio or a hi-fi shop), I’m losing some transparency with the DSP. That’s why I try to keep the DSP to a minimum. Ultimately for me, not having the DSP causes a bit of bass overloading that sounds worse than enabling the subtle parametric EQs even accepting the slight loss in transparency. Your mileage might vary in your system.


----------



## ecwl

JTbbb said:


> Hello, I have a Dave on demo for a couple of weeks and I’ve pretty much got my head around the menu system. But for the life of me I cannot find how to change the gain (volume) range, high/low. I am in Amp mode. I guess I’m missing something simple!


DAVE only has DAC mode vs Digital Pre mode so I presume when you say Amp mode, you mean DAC mode? I didn’t actually think anyone puts DAVE in Amp/DAC mode. Mostly because if you want DAC mode, you can just set the volume at -3dB because they’re 100% identical. DAVE would give 3V output. And if your pre-amp/amp actually clips at 3V, you can set DAVE to -7dB for 2V or -13dB for 1V. It just makes using DAVE much more convenient instead of locking it at 3V. To turn off DAC mode, you just press the Left and Right button at the same time until DAVE says Chord DAVE Digital Pre at the bottom of the screen. Or you should be able to just turn off and then on the DAC again as I think it always defaults to Digital Pre mode. DAVE clips at 3-4dB in Digital Pre mode and I think it gives about 6-7V? So bottom line is that you just change the volume by turning the knob or using the remote.


----------



## Triode User

ecwl said:


> DAVE only has DAC mode vs Digital Pre mode so I presume when you say Amp mode, you mean DAC mode? I didn’t actually think anyone puts DAVE in Amp/DAC mode. Mostly because if you want DAC mode, you can just set the volume at -3dB because they’re 100% identical. DAVE would give 3V output. And if your pre-amp/amp actually clips at 3V, you can set DAVE to -7dB for 2V or -13dB for 1V. It just makes using DAVE much more convenient instead of locking it at 3V. To turn off DAC mode, you just press the Left and Right button at the same time until DAVE says Chord DAVE Digital Pre at the bottom of the screen. Or you should be able to just turn off and then on the DAC again as I think it always defaults to Digital Pre mode. DAVE clips at 3-4dB in Digital Pre mode and I think it gives about 6-7V? So bottom line is that you just change the volume by turning the knob or using the remote.



Yep, agreed, a spot on summary. Also to add that unlike TT2, Dave does not have a high/low gain setting.


----------



## xiaobao0707

ecwl said:


> IMHO, no. Because I mostly listen to speaker systems, I have not been able to find an amplifier that is as transparent as the DAVE headphone jack. My Chord Etude is very close and the best I’ve tried and heard though. I think unless your headphones have low sensitivity and need more power, you’re always going to get the most transparent sound off the headphone jack. However, there are definitely some on this thread that disagrees with me. While I personally think their headphone amplifier are adding some euphonic distortions and sacrificing some transparency and accuracy, I actually don’t really know what I’m talking about since I don’t own other headphone amplifiers to compare. So my suggestion is that if you have money lying around and time, try some headphone amps? If you don’t, just enjoy the music. Like I’m doing right now with my Focal Utopia headphones (because I don’t want to disturb my neighbours in my apartment)



Thank you ecwl for your words. Your words actually matches exactly my feeling years ago while I just acquired Dave. I should just sit back and enjoy the music. Too bad my utopia's left driver is broken, for a second time...


----------



## JTbbb

ecwl said:


> DAVE only has DAC mode vs Digital Pre mode so I presume when you say Amp mode, you mean DAC mode? I didn’t actually think anyone puts DAVE in Amp/DAC mode. Mostly because if you want DAC mode, you can just set the volume at -3dB because they’re 100% identical. DAVE would give 3V output. And if your pre-amp/amp actually clips at 3V, you can set DAVE to -7dB for 2V or -13dB for 1V. It just makes using DAVE much more convenient instead of locking it at 3V. To turn off DAC mode, you just press the Left and Right button at the same time until DAVE says Chord DAVE Digital Pre at the bottom of the screen. Or you should be able to just turn off and then on the DAC again as I think it always defaults to Digital Pre mode. DAVE clips at 3-4dB in Digital Pre mode and I think it gives about 6-7V? So bottom line is that you just change the volume by turning the knob or using the remote.



Thanks for the reply. Yes I am already in Digital Pre (Feeding an Etude like yourself) and from my understanding of the manual that is Amp mode whereby you adjust volume with the remote or volume knob. But in the quick start manual Sect. 9, it talks about switching between a low/high gain mode in a very similar fashion to TT2. It’s a bit academic really as the volume is fine, but it states it is available and I can’t find it.


----------



## xiaobao0707

Cafone said:


> I agree. I have an LCD-4 (200 Ohm) and compared driving it directly out of Dave vs out of Violectric HPA V280 (with Dave as the DAC): Dave direct was clearly better in all aspects, including bass handling, so I sold the amp.
> 
> I'm guessing that only for the Susvara/HE-6 and perhaps the Abyss you need a amp in order to drive them properly. For all other headphones, adding an amp just adds distortion and coloration in my opinion, which of course isn't necessarily a bad thing.



With my HD800 -16db served it really well so I guess you are right, adding an amp only adds distortion. As of my taste, I should stay away from splurging money that way. Thank you.


----------



## JTbbb

Triode User said:


> Yep, agreed, a spot on summary. Also to add that unlike TT2, Dave does not have a high/low gain setting.



Hi TU, yes I believe you are correct. Dave does not have a high/low gain setting.


----------



## TheAttorney

ecwl said:


> ... And indeed, doing the crossfeed with Roon does lead to a very subtle loss in low-level detail and the sound of instruments just seemed minimally less realistic presumably because of that subtle low-level detail loss. Now, I used to term very subtle because if I were to give a grade of sound quality of DAVE crossfeed as 100%, I would give the Roon crossfeed as 98%.



I think Roon's crossfeed does indeed lose transparency, but I would give it a much lower score than 98%. I'm not impressed with the SQ aspects of Roon's DSP in general - especially the volume control and auto levelling, so it's a general Roon DSP issue rather than specific to crossfeed. All in IMO of course and there are plenty of users who don't have a problem with Roon's DSP.

As it happens, I think that DAVE's XF also has a slight loss of transparency, but at a much lower level and I find the benefits far outweigh the losses. I posted about this a while back - the 3 aspects of the perceived effect of DAVE's XF transparency (the more natural soundstage presentation (good), the bass boost (good or bad depending on headphone's FR), and a genuine loss in transparency (bad)).


----------



## ecwl

JTbbb said:


> Thanks for the reply. Yes I am already in Digital Pre (Feeding an Etude like yourself) and from my understanding of the manual that is Amp mode whereby you adjust volume with the remote or volume knob. But in the quick start manual Sect. 9, it talks about switching between a low/high gain mode in a very similar fashion to TT2. It’s a bit academic really as the volume is fine, but it states it is available and I can’t find it.


I just looked at the Quick Start menu. Yeah, I’m shocked they put it in Sect .9 that there is high and low gain mode in DAVE which is super confusing. Of course, what they meant was that if you set the volume to be -78dB to I don’t know -10dB, that’ll be low gain and -10dB to +18dB, it’ll be high gain... Of course, since there is no separate high or low gain mode, you’re essentially adjusting the volume = voltage. It won’t affect the wattage available (unlike TT2).
The other thing to note is that if your music material clips, then the highest volume you can set would be +4dB Before DAVE clips but if the music doesn’t clip, it’s possible you can crank the dB up to +18dB and DAVE would never clip.
The next thing I sort of worked out mathematically is that if the Etude clips at 150W and the gain is 28-30dB, Etude should clip when DAVE is around -13dB (if fed unbalanced) and around -19dB (if fed balanced). This is once again assuming your music material actually uses the entire dynamic range. If you notice you consistently need to listen to louder than that, it’s probably time to get dual mono Etude or an Ultima amp?
The last thing that always annoys me is that because I switch back and forth between headphones and speakers, I have to check to see if I left crossfeed on (setting 3 for me) or off (setting 0) Bbecause the crossfeed is active for the RCA/XLR output as well as headphones even though you can’t see the settings when you’re not listening to headphones. I believe DAVE always ships with crossfeed off (setting 0). However, if your unit is from a dealer who might have played with it or demo’d it, somebody might have changed the crossfeed settings. So I intermittently obsessively plug something into the headphone jack just to double check to make sure the crossfeed setting is correct.


----------



## llamaluv

xiaobao0707 said:


> Hi guys, I'm sure this must have been asked before. But it is just too much to dig in all the messages.
> 
> I right now am using Dave + M Scaler, right out of Dave's headphone jacket. I personally find this amazing, with incredible amount of details and the timbers are just right. But somehow will a good quality amp make it better? I generally enjoy classics and jazz. Thank you!



Hi, just wanted to use your question to assert an alternative opinion:

I'm not a big fan of DAVE's headphone-out. I've preferred almost every external amp I've ever hooked up to the DAVE over the DAVE's native headphone output, and rarely use the latter except when it's more convenient than turning on an extra external device.

IMO, it can be worth trying various external options and comparing it against the DAVE's headphone-out to see what speaks to you most.


----------



## F208Frank

For me I knew Abyss was power hungry and needed extra amp exterior of DAVE so simple decision. Otherwise I would not mind just using DAVE amp. 

If I had the Utopia, I'd consider using Dave amp.


----------



## jlbrach

the dave HP out is better than adding an external amp in most every case other than the abyss TC, the susvara and perhaps the LCD-4...otherwise the transparency one experiences straight out of the dave is superior


----------



## Sound Trooper

Does anyone know the output impedance of the HP out of the Dave? I have been really enjoying my high impedance headphones (ZMF Auteur & HD 6XX) directly out of the Dave. The Auteur particularly has a nice sense of transparency as well as musicality when driven directly from the Dave.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

musickid said:


> congratulations.


I have been re-reading this thread while awaiting the arrival of my Dave.  I saw one of your posts saying that some say "the H2 + MS is better than solo Dave."  Here you are now with the TT2 + MS and the Dave is in your minds eye now.  It's just a matter of time before you get the Dave. I started with the Mojo, then the Hugo 2, TT2, MS and now the Dave.  That whole gateway drug might well be true.  I picture you sweating and shaking while posting on the Dave thread.  Peer pressure!


----------



## MacedonianHero

jlbrach said:


> the dave HP out is better than adding an external amp in most every case other than the abyss TC, the susvara and perhaps the LCD-4...otherwise the transparency one experiences straight out of the dave is superior



^ What he said!


----------



## xiaobao0707

llamaluv said:


> Hi, just wanted to use your question to assert an alternative opinion:
> 
> I'm not a big fan of DAVE's headphone-out. I've preferred almost every external amp I've ever hooked up to the DAVE over the DAVE's native headphone output, and rarely use the latter except when it's more convenient than turning on an extra external device.
> 
> IMO, it can be worth trying various external options and comparing it against the DAVE's headphone-out to see what speaks to you most.



Thank you. It will be a fun exercise once the virus is gone to try some gears!


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## iDesign (May 5, 2020)

With most headphones the DAVE’s output is more than sufficient and @Rob Watts philosophy behind the way he designed it is one of the many things you should embrace. On another note, not a day goes by that I regret buying a DAVE and Blu Mk II for my home and office. I'll pick the DAVE any day of the week and twice on Sunday over everything else.


----------



## MacedonianHero

iDesign said:


> With most headphones the DAVE’s output is more than sufficient and @Rob Watts philosophy behind the way he designed it is one of the many things you should embrace. On another note, not a day goes by that I regret buying a DAVE and Blu Mk II for my home and office. I'll pick the DAVE any day of the week and twice on Sunday over everything else.



Exactly...the only headphones I wouldn't recommend without a more powerful amplifier are the Abyss Phi (TC), Susvara, HE-6SE and that's about it. The HEDDphones are power hungry, but the DAVE is plenty powerful for them. Literally everything else is well within the DAVE's wheelhouse.


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## jlbrach

I would add the lcd-4 which are kind of on the margin...


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## MacedonianHero

jlbrach said:


> I would add the lcd-4 which are kind of on the margin...



Yes, correct...the LCD-4 (but not the 4z).


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## Mediahound

The LCD-4z has low impedance, but is not actually super efficient (that's a common misconception). The MX4 for example is more efficient at almost twice the loudness of the LCD-4z (103 dB/mW vs 98 dB/mW).


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## CRITICALSHOT (May 6, 2020)

I just got my Dave and one of the first things I wanted to check was DSD with the DSD Plus setting.  For some strange reason Roon has been converting DSD to PCM today.  It was working fine on the TT2 yesterday.  The last straw is the lawn care going on outside my window.  I'm still happy though!

Anyone having this Roon issue?  All DSP setting are off in Roon...


----------



## jlbrach

Mediahound said:


> The LCD-4z has low impedance, but is not actually super efficient (that's a common misconception). The MX4 for example is more efficient at almost twice the loudness of the LCD-4z (103 dB/mW vs 98 dB/mW).


the 4z is not as efficient as some but far more efficient than the lcd-4 is and very easy to drive in most cases


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

I saw mention that some Daves have different glass on the front and that is one way to differentiate the age of the unit.  My unit has the inputs labeled; some Daves do not.  Is mine a newer unit or what?


----------



## ecwl

CRITICALSHOT said:


> I just got my Dave and one of the first things I wanted to check was DSD with the DSD Plus setting.  For some strange reason Roon has been converting DSD to PCM today.  It was working fine on the TT2 yesterday.  The last straw is the lawn care going on outside my window.  I'm still happy though!
> 
> Anyone having this Roon issue?  All DSP setting are off in Roon...


It should work. But you didn’t mention whether you’re using a streamer or PC with TT2 and now DAVE. I’ve found with some streamer (and PC) even though they’re supposed to be plug and play, when you switch from one DAC to another, you actually have to make sure they’ve switched from TT2 to DAVE. If you don’t, even though music will play, there’ll be a few bugs here and there. Just something to check. I remember at my dealer, when he switched to Blu2 from DAVE, we couldn’t get anything playing. The driver is probably the same but the streamer still thinks it’s connected to DAVE. Once we program the streamer to Blu2, it played fine.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

ecwl said:


> It should work. But you didn’t mention whether you’re using a streamer or PC with TT2 and now DAVE. I’ve found with some streamer (and PC) even though they’re supposed to be plug and play, when you switch from one DAC to another, you actually have to make sure they’ve switched from TT2 to DAVE. If you don’t, even though music will play, there’ll be a few bugs here and there. Just something to check. I remember at my dealer, when he switched to Blu2 from DAVE, we couldn’t get anything playing. The driver is probably the same but the streamer still thinks it’s connected to DAVE. Once we program the streamer to Blu2, it played fine.


I am using the Lumin U1.  You gave me a good idea, I will plug directly to the Dave from my MacBook Pro and see if there are some setting I can change.  It sounds great and once I get the Blu this will be a non issue.


----------



## ecwl

CRITICALSHOT said:


> I am using the Lumin U1.  You gave me a good idea, I will plug directly to the Dave from my MacBook Pro and see if there are some setting I can change.  It sounds great and once I get the Blu this will be a non issue.


It’s the lumin U1 that might need settings changed. There is nothing to change on the DAVE


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

ecwl said:


> It’s the lumin U1 that might need settings changed. There is nothing to change on the DAVE


Yeah, I was stretching there.  I checked all the settings in the Lumin; thanks for the help but I don't even care a little at this point. I am over the moon right now!


----------



## Uncle Monty

There's some stuff about Lumin U1 settings for DoP on Roon discussion boards.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Uncle Monty said:


> There's some stuff about Lumin U1 settings for DoP on Roon discussion boards.


Can you think of any negatives when using the M-Scaler with the Dave?


----------



## F208Frank

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Can you think of any negatives when using the M-Scaler with the Dave?


Extra box and extra shelf space needed can be one annoyance for some.


----------



## jlbrach

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Can you think of any negatives when using the M-Scaler with the Dave?


cost!


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Two good ones!  I was more so thinking sound wise.


----------



## F208Frank

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Two good ones!  I was more so thinking sound wise.


The implication was that it is better sounding but at the expense of cost/space/extra box/potentially extra cables/potential extra item going bad etc.


----------



## F208Frank

F208Frank said:


> The implication was that it is better sounding but at the expense of cost/space/extra box/potentially extra cables/potential extra item going bad etc.


I find solo Dave to have great sound as well. Do I want to give up M scaler though, no. I will eat less food. Even organic vegetables are cheap if cooking at home.


----------



## llamaluv

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Can you think of any negatives when using the M-Scaler with the Dave?


Huge opportunities for nervosa regarding RFI for those who are so predisposed. #cantlie


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

llamaluv said:


> Huge opportunities for nervosa regarding RFI for those who are so predisposed. #cantlie


Wow, you went there.  Problems of the world today!


----------



## MacedonianHero

jlbrach said:


> the 4z is not as efficient as some but far more efficient than the lcd-4 is and very easy to drive in most cases



Exactly and with the DAVE, no sweat to drive these cans.


----------



## Uncle Monty

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Can you think of any negatives when using the M-Scaler with the Dave?


If you look a few pages back - I was a bit confused about what settings to use on the DAVE and on Roon -  because the MScaler converts DSD to PCM, you should probably set the DAVE to PCM if you have MScaler attached (though some say it doesn't matter) and set Roon to feed the MScaler in original form (so keep DSD as DSD and PCM as PCM - I think DoP is the setting that allows this) - so the MScaler converts DSD to PCM rather than Roon as the MScaler should be better at doing this.

It's an education this digital music malarky.


----------



## ecwl

Uncle Monty said:


> If you look a few pages back - I was a bit confused about what settings to use on the DAVE and on Roon -  because the MScaler converts DSD to PCM, you should probably set the DAVE to PCM if you have MScaler attached (though some say it doesn't matter) and set Roon to feed the MScaler in original form (so keep DSD as DSD and PCM as PCM - I think DoP is the setting that allows this) - so the MScaler converts DSD to PCM rather than Roon as the MScaler should be better at doing this.


All true except the reason why we say DSD+ or PCM+ settings on DAVE doesn’t matter is because...
When you’re feeding DAVE with M-Scaler, presumably DAVE will always received upsampled 705.6kHz or 768kHz signal. The PCM+ vs DSD+ setting on DAVE only determines whether DAVE uses 164000 taps or 82000 taps to upsample PCM content to 705.6kHz or 768kHz (and how it processes DSD signals). Since you’re already feeding 705.6kHz or 768kHz to DAVE, it doesn’t matter whether you set DAVE to DSD+ or PCM+, it’ll sound the same.


----------



## Mircea C.

CRITICALSHOT said:


> I saw mention that some Daves have different glass on the front and that is one way to differentiate the age of the unit.  My unit has the inputs labeled; some Daves do not.  Is mine a newer unit or what?



I also just got my Dave pre-owned. Same labeled inputs, 7 button remote (in the last manual on chord website it shows a remote similar to TT2's one) and the original purchase date was 2018 if that helps in any way.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Mircea C. said:


> I also just got my Dave pre-owned. Same labeled inputs, 7 button remote (in the last manual on chord website it shows a remote similar to TT2's one) and the original purchase date was 2018 if that helps in any way.


I guess people were complaining.  I had the layout memorized while I was waiting and had a checklist.  I knew how to put it in DAC Mode and to put some headphones in to make sure cross feed was off.  

Dave in "my" two channel system crushes the TT2/MS in every aspect that is important to me. Selling the TT2/MS turned out to be the perfect move.  I was so happy that I am not even rushed to get the Blu 2; solo Dave is that much of an improvement for my system.


----------



## Triode User

CRITICALSHOT said:


> I guess people were complaining.  I had the layout memorized while I was waiting and had a checklist.  I knew how to put it in DAC Mode and to put some headphones in to make sure cross feed was off.
> 
> Dave in "my" two channel system crushes the TT2/MS in every aspect that is important to me. Selling the TT2/MS turned out to be the perfect move.  I was so happy that I am not even rushed to get the Blu 2; solo Dave is that much of an improvement for my system.



As I never tire of saying, I really do think solo Dave is much better than TT2/HMS. Glad you are happy. When you are ready you can get HMS again.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Triode User said:


> As I never tire of saying, I really do think solo Dave is much better than TT2/HMS. Glad you are happy. When you are ready you can get HMS again.


Dave:
- more dynamic
- more transparent
- more detailed
- more clarity
- bass is better defined
- bass has more texture
- midrange is better 
- more cohesive overall sound
- soundstage is somewhat better

I could go on but you get the idea.


----------



## Amberlamps (May 22, 2020)

TT 2 is more musical, if folk want clinical music without soul, get a dave instead, and TT2 is a better all rounder.

This isn't just me thats saying it, it's also 50 Cent's brother. 

Meet 25p


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Amberlamps said:


> TT 2 is more musical, if folk want clinical music without soul, get a dave instead, and TT2 is a better all rounder.
> 
> This isn't just me thats saying it, it's also 50 Cent's brother.


The Dave is more musical than the TT2/MS and does everything better! I thought the Dave was going to be hyper detailed, bright, disconnected and thin. Nope! The TT2/MS is not a better all rounder; there is only one area where it can compete. More power, but the sound quality is not even close.  If you happen to not need the power then that one area doesn’t even matter.

"Hold my jockstrap."

- Digital to Analogue Veritas in Extremis


----------



## Mircea C.

Unfortunately I sold my TT2 before I jumped for Dave so I didn't had the chance to AB. What surprised me was that Dave is not thin at all (I guess I was afraid a little bit). Even though I sold my TT2 I kept the HMS . With Nick's "Stone" cables in place I am now looking to improve my interconnects to get even more detail out of the system. Although everybody says RCA out of Dave are a better option, in my system XLR is (I guess the amp is working better in balanced mode), so I ordered 5 XLR interconnects to do a comparison at home and I will keep the winner. Will be busy next few days


----------



## koven

Please avoid using 'musical' to describe sound, it's probably the emptiest and most meaningless among all audio jargon, no?


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Mircea C. said:


> Unfortunately I sold my TT2 before I jumped for Dave so I didn't had the chance to AB. What surprised me was that Dave is not thin at all (I guess I was afraid a little bit). Even though I sold my TT2 I kept the HMS . With Nick's "Stone" cables in place I am now looking to improve my interconnects to get even more detail out of the system. Although everybody says RCA out of Dave are a better option, in my system XLR is (I guess the amp is working better in balanced mode), so I ordered 5 XLR interconnects to do a comparison at home and I will keep the winner. Will be busy next few days


I want the Blu 2, that's why I sold the MS.  It just happened that the MS sold before I got the Dave, so I couldn't get the chance to try it with the Dave.  I have read the entire Dave thread, TT2 thread and most of the MS thread.  I wanted to know everyones opinion so I could make a some what informed decision before making a blind purchase.  It seems like the people that don't have the Dave talk the loudest.  I just wanted to give my opinion and see if it can help point someone in the right direction.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT (May 7, 2020)

koven said:


> Please avoid using 'musical' to describe sound, it's probably the emptiest and most meaningless among all audio jargon, no?


The funny thing is that 'musical' is a good thing to some and a bad thing to others.


----------



## koven

CRITICALSHOT said:


> I agree, it is a good thing to some and a bad thing to others.  In the
> 
> The funny thing is that 'musical' is a good thing to some and a bad thing to others.



It's quite an amusing descriptor, I chuckle every time. I suppose some people think musical is synonymous to warm, rich, and dynamic. But to me the only practical use of musical would be saying yeah, that audiobook wasn't very musical. Otherwise music is inherently pretty... musical.


----------



## F208Frank

There is this retail store in NY where the staff mention certain items being more musical than others, Koven. I'm sure they would drive you nuts!


----------



## koven

F208Frank said:


> There is this retail store in NY where the staff mention certain items being more musical than others, Koven. I'm sure they would drive you nuts!



Audio46? I'd like to walk in and say I'm looking for something not too musical. To which they may respond sir, there's a Barnes and Noble a few blocks down.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT (May 7, 2020)

koven said:


> It's quite an amusing descriptor, I chuckle every time. I suppose some people think musical is synonymous to warm, rich, and dynamic. But to me the only practical use of musical would be saying yeah, that audiobook wasn't very musical. Otherwise music is inherently pretty... musical.


The Dave is all three of those descriptors and the TT2/MS in comparison was flat, thin and lifeless.  I bought an Aqua La Scala Optologic Dac and put the grimiest and dirtiest sounding tubes in it to get me the furthest away from the TT2/MS sound.  This is my 5th Chord product so I do enjoy and respect what they do.  The Dave hit the nail on the head for me and will be an integral/core part of my system.

I spent more time changing those damn filters on the TT2 because I was never satisfied.  I bought the damn Phasure Lush USB cable just to try and coax a little life into it.  With the Dave i'm like yup this is it.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

I don't even listen to music anymore.  I just look at the Dave's Porthole and hum the above tune!


----------



## koven (May 7, 2020)

CRITICALSHOT said:


> The Dave is all three of those descriptors and the TT2/MS in comparison was flat, thin and lifeless.  I bought an Aqua La Scala Optologic Dac and put the grimiest and dirtiest sounding tubes in it to get me the furthest away from the TT2/MS sound.  This is my 5th Chord product so I do enjoy and respect what they do.  The Dave hit the nail on the head for me and will be an integral/core part of my system.



That's interesting as I commonly see people describing discrete R2R DACs like the Aqua or Lampizator as more ugh, _musical_, than FPGA or chip DACs. But nonetheless DAVE is pretty amazing indeed. Certainly the most memorable DAC I've owned but alas I'm exploring life after DAVE. Personally in this price bracket the new-ish Tambaqui DAC from Mola Mola looks really good. The creator is also the founder of Ncore (class D) tech and Kii Audio.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT (May 7, 2020)

koven said:


> That's interesting as I commonly see people describing discrete R2R DACs like the Aqua or Lampizator as more ugh, _musical_, than FPGA or chip DACs. But nonetheless DAVE is pretty amazing indeed. Certainly the most memorable DAC I've owned but alas I'm exploring life after DAVE. Personally in this price bracket the new-ish Tambaqui DAC from Mola Mola looks really good. The creator is also the founder of Ncore (class D) tech and Kii Audio.


I was attempting to say just that but seemed to have fallen flat.  The TT2/MS had great space and great delineation, but never felt cohesive or rythmic.  I went the so called musical direction as a pallet cleanser.  I was worried that the Dave was going be similar in nature to the TT2 but I was wrong.  I was worried that buying the Dave was going to be a big mistake but luckily I was wrong again.  When I say something negative about the TT2/MS it is in comparison to the Dave.  I also am trying to be definitive as not to leave any doubt as to which I prefer.

*****In my two channel system*****


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 8, 2020)

I had been using HMS and Dave for more than a year now.

Before Dave I had been using Emmlab Dac2 for 7 years.

HMS and Dave give more details with transparent and deeper soundstage than Dac2 while Dac2 sounds warm with slightly more bass slam.

My 2 channel system has tube integrated amplifier that  mate well with  HMS and Dave which sounds neutral or slightly  on the cool side.

On headphones, I had been using Ksshv Carbon to drive 009s and Jot R to drive Sr1a.

Although they sound fine, I had felt something missing.

After having Schitt Freya between Dave and headphone amplifier, I feel everything much more musical with nuanced details and more bass texture.

I had done lot of tube rolling on Freya which uses quad 6sn7 tubes.

Sylvania vt231 in gain stage and RCA gray bottle in buffer stage give ideal combination of details speed and wide and deep soundstage but without hot edges.

Freya fitted with above Nos tubes and Kgsshv Carbon drive 009s with sublime air, fast speed and textured bass.

 Freya in the chain also make HD 800s and Sr1a sound much nice with relaxed and sweet  details.

Maria Carey's "Vision of Love"  sound nuanced without hard edge with Freya in the chain.

Just my two cents.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Uncle Monty said:


> There's some stuff about Lumin U1 settings for DoP on Roon discussion boards.


I had to go to the Lumin App and disable the Volume Control to stop the Lumin U1 from converting DSD to PCM.


----------



## smodtactical

Anyone compare dave to rockna wave dream signature balanced?


----------



## koven

smodtactical said:


> Anyone compare dave to rockna wave dream signature balanced?



966 pages on this thread, 0 search results for Wavedream...  Haven't heard it but I've seen Wavedream compared to DAVE multiple times, elsewhere.


----------



## Rob Watts

koven said:


> Please avoid using 'musical' to describe sound, it's probably the emptiest and most meaningless among all audio jargon, no?



True; but it happens to be the most important factor in determining how good your audio is.

Part of the problem is that "musical" is often used for soft, or warm sounding, so a lot depends upon one's definition of musical. For me musical means one thing only - how good the emotional involvement with music is; and that the more musical your gear, the more you want to listen to music, and the more times you get spine tingling effects.

To me the only real reason to want to get involved with audio is to maximise the emotions of listening to music; and if your definition of musical embodies this idea then use the term.


----------



## xiaobao0707

CRITICALSHOT said:


> I guess people were complaining.  I had the layout memorized while I was waiting and had a checklist.  I knew how to put it in DAC Mode and to put some headphones in to make sure cross feed was off.
> 
> Dave in "my" two channel system crushes the TT2/MS in every aspect that is important to me. Selling the TT2/MS turned out to be the perfect move.  I was so happy that I am not even rushed to get the Blu 2; solo Dave is that much of an improvement for my system.


why don't you keep the MS and connect it to Dave? I am doing this and it's a bless.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

I wanted the Blu 2 instead and the MScaler sold before my Dave arrived.


----------



## Amberlamps (May 22, 2020)

0


Rob Watts said:


> True; but it happens to be the most important factor in determining how good your audio is.
> 
> Part of the problem is that "musical" is often used for soft, or warm sounding, so a lot depends upon one's definition of musical. For me musical means one thing only - how good the emotional involvement with music is; and that the more musical your gear, the more you want to listen to music, and the more times you get spine tingling effects.
> 
> To me the only real reason to want to get involved with audio is to maximise the emotions of listening to music; and if your definition of musical embodies this idea then use the term.



Lol, I don't need music to feel spine tingling effects, I get them for free, it's called peripheral neuropathy.

Anyway, me being a headphone only user,  musical is some of the above, but most importantly for me, it's being able to listen to music without getting fatigued. 

I can listen for hours now and it only feels like 30 minutes have went by, when in fact it's 5 hours. 

I've also went from loving my HD800S and not liking my Aeon Flow closed, to the opposite, the Aeons took weeks to get used to them, but now they are my preferred go to headphones.

Also, I have never really been one to use headphones when watching movies, but I have started to do it when its late at night and it's crazy good. That "Once upon a time in Hollywood" movie with brad pitt and that leo dude, the subtle sound effects in that movie is cool, it got to a point where I was listening to the sound effects and not really watching the movie. Putting leather gloves on has never sounded so good

It's a tarantino movie.


----------



## Amberlamps

CRITICALSHOT said:


> I don't even listen to music anymore.  I just look at the Dave's Porthole and hum the above tune!




What can be worse than that love boat video ?

Remembering that I watched it in the UK when it first aired.

Scary flash back.


----------



## iDesign (May 8, 2020)

Rob Watts said:


> True; but it happens to be the most important factor in determining how good your audio is.
> 
> Part of the problem is that "musical" is often used for soft, or warm sounding, so a lot depends upon one's definition of musical. For me musical means one thing only - how good the emotional involvement with music is; and that the more musical your gear, the more you want to listen to music, and the more times you get spine tingling effects.
> 
> To me the only real reason to want to get involved with audio is to maximise the emotions of listening to music; and if your definition of musical embodies this idea then use the term.


I think I can speak on behalf of the other members in saying that it is great to see you’re well and active in the DAVE thread. On the subject of musical, the DAVE+Blu Mk II have been among my most important outlets from an emotional perspective during these extraordinary times. Thank you for ever designing them.


----------



## Amberlamps

koven said:


> It's quite an amusing descriptor, I chuckle every time. I suppose some people think musical is synonymous to warm, rich, and dynamic. But to me the only practical use of musical would be saying yeah, that audiobook wasn't very musical. Otherwise music is inherently pretty... musical.



Not all music is musical, or maybe you haven't heard the right audio book yet ?

Think of the UK grime scene or whatever they want to call it, it is just a bloody noise, and as far from "musical" as one could get. Ice Cube and co N.W.A sound like a church choir in comparison.


----------



## musickid

grime is emotional for them as it's the setting, environment and people they jump around with that will remain in their psyches till they turn 80. in the mid nineties i use to jump around alot too.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT (May 9, 2020)

xxx1313 said:


> I would not give the advice to replace the Lush^2. I had both Curious USB and Phasure Lush1 (yes, the latter can sound slow and dull, indeed), but Lush^2 is an entirely different animal, imo. Extremely versatile with its different jumper configurations. I am still kind of blown away every day from what this cable can do in combination with M-Scaler/DAVE. However, I agree that clean power is important as well for the highly resolving Chord products with their low noise floor.


astrostar59 said:
"IMO this is more about another device in the chain than the DAVE itself. Looking at your system, I would go for the Curious USB, not use the Phasure Lush. I had the Lush 1 and it was very slow and dull sounding, too much energy was lost. MK2 is supposed to be better but I am betting the Curious will open your system up a LOT. Then look at your interconnects between the DAVE and your amp. Get some nice silver cables like the Audio Note AN-Vs for example. Finally look at your power supply. I would say the PS Audio P5 would sort that out for you, get the noise related stuff down and the bass and dynamics up."

I just got the Dave a few days ago and I remembered this post as I was setting it up.  So I decided to use my Curious Evolved USB Cable as per your advice.  Today I put Phasure Lush USB Cable in and it was pretty sweet.  The treble energy was there but the midrange was thicker and still refined.  The bass/mid bass had a little more oomph and the layering was improved.  I have the Focal Sopra's; so the highs can really shine real lovely with the right DAC. The mids can be the star of the show with a little coaxing and the Lush USB did just that.


----------



## PhenixS1970

The Final Touch Audio usb cable is also very very good.  I use it between my M-Scaler & Auralic G1.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

PhenixS1970 said:


> The Final Touch Audio usb cable is also very very good.  I use it between my M-Scaler & Auralic G1.


Thank you for your recommendation.  I always wonder what USB cables people have tried and what sonic differences they heard.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

PhenixS1970 said:


> The Final Touch Audio usb cable is also very very good.  I use it between my M-Scaler & Auralic G1.


I read the review of the Callisto USB and it sounds right up my alley.  The guy that reviewed the Curious Evolved also reviewed the Callisto. That's good, as I could have a frame of reference and also I have an understanding of his preferences.

"The cable can also be delivered with the 5v connected or disconnected."  Which one do you have and why?


----------



## PhenixS1970

CRITICALSHOT said:


> I read the review of the Callisto USB and it sounds right up my alley.  The guy that reviewed the Curious Evolved also reviewed the Callisto. That's good, as I could have a frame of reference and also I have an understanding of his preferences.
> 
> "The cable can also be delivered with the 5v connected or disconnected."  Which one do you have and why?



For Chord gear you need to get the (any) usb cable with the 5v connected as it needs that power to recognize the attached device (on most usb cables that 5v wire is in the housing of the cable but i.e. the Curious Cable has that extra wire visible).


----------



## miketlse

CRITICALSHOT said:


> I read the review of the Callisto USB and it sounds right up my alley.  The guy that reviewed the Curious Evolved also reviewed the Callisto. That's good, as I could have a frame of reference and also I have an understanding of his preferences.
> 
> "The cable can also be delivered with the 5v connected or disconnected."  Which one do you have and why?


I think @Rob Watts dacs need the 5V connected, so that the dac can autosense the usb input is being used.


----------



## STR-1

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Thank you for your recommendation.  I always wonder what USB cables people have tried and what sonic differences they heard.


One of the top recommendations at the moment is the Sablon Audio 2020 USB cable.  I had the original Curious Link cable, which was bettered by both the original Lush (warm, a little soft, but more soul) and my preferred Sablon Reserva Elite (a little cooler with more detail, low noIse, a little less soul).  The Lush^2 then bettered the original Lush (still a little warm but with more detail and less noise) and made it harder for me to decide between that and the Sablon.  Then very recently Mark Coles of Sablon Audio released a 2020 update to his USB cable, which is in another league.  Noise is further reduced so that you can hear more - better defined bass and clear fatigue-free treble, quite neutral.

Mark hasn’t updated his website to include the 2020 cable but you can get more info from him at sablonaudio@gmail.com.  You can read what others think of this cable at https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sablon-usb-cable-2020-model.29912/page-5


----------



## onlychild

STR-1 said:


> One of the top recommendations at the moment is the Sablon Audio 2020 USB cable.  I had the original Curious Link cable, which was bettered by both the original Lush (warm, a little soft, but more soul) and my preferred Sablon Reserva Elite (a little cooler with more detail, low noIse, a little less soul).  The Lush^2 then bettered the original Lush (still a little warm but with more detail and less noise) and made it harder for me to decide between that and the Sablon.  Then very recently Mark Coles of Sablon Audio released a 2020 update to his USB cable, which is in another league.  Noise is further reduced so that you can hear more - better defined bass and clear fatigue-free treble, quite neutral.
> 
> Mark hasn’t updated his website to include the 2020 cable but you can get more info from him at sablonaudio@gmail.com.  You can read what others think of this cable at https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sablon-usb-cable-2020-model.29912/page-5


I’m also using the Sablon and it’s the best I’ve heard yet.


----------



## PhenixS1970

Another one I can recommend is the Oyaide NEO d+ Class A usb (about 50 EUR).  Surely the FTA is better (and to my ears the extra performance was worth the substantial price difference).


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

STR-1 said:


> One of the top recommendations at the moment is the Sablon Audio 2020 USB cable.  I had the original Curious Link cable, which was bettered by both the original Lush (warm, a little soft, but more soul) and my preferred Sablon Reserva Elite (a little cooler with more detail, low noIse, a little less soul).  The Lush^2 then bettered the original Lush (still a little warm but with more detail and less noise) and made it harder for me to decide between that and the Sablon.  Then very recently Mark Coles of Sablon Audio released a 2020 update to his USB cable, which is in another league.  Noise is further reduced so that you can hear more - better defined bass and clear fatigue-free treble, quite neutral.
> 
> Mark hasn’t updated his website to include the 2020 cable but you can get more info from him at sablonaudio@gmail.com.  You can read what others think of this cable at https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sablon-usb-cable-2020-model.29912/page-5


Is there a link where I buy it? Pics?  

I have never cut the HF Filter off on the Dave.  I like what the Lush Cable does, but wanted to see if I could add some more sparkle.  Cutting it off did just that.  What exactly is the HF Filter doing?  What do you guys use and why?


----------



## STR-1

This is what the DAVE manual says about the RF filter:

_“HF Filter On or Off – This turns on a sharp high frequency cutoff filter set at 60kHz.This filter bandwidth limits higher sample rate recordings to reduce noise shaper noise from the ADC.You may find that the noise will degrade the sound quality by increasing noise floor modulation as the out of bandwidth noise causes intermodulation distortion with the wanted audio signal in the analogue electronics. By activating the HF Filter it is likely that you will hear a positive effect upon the resulting sound quality.
Phase Pos or Neg”_

I’m not sure what the technical explanation is, but I’ve read more than once that the filter was useful for reducing high frequency noise carried in hi-res music files.  I believe Rob Watts keeps the filter turned on.

Regarding the Sablon cable, there are photos on the forum I gave you the link to.  For the time being, I think you will have to email Mark to order.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

STR-1 said:


> This is what the DAVE manual says about the RF filter:
> 
> _“HF Filter On or Off – This turns on a sharp high frequency cutoff filter set at 60kHz.This filter bandwidth limits higher sample rate recordings to reduce noise shaper noise from the ADC.You may find that the noise will degrade the sound quality by increasing noise floor modulation as the out of bandwidth noise causes intermodulation distortion with the wanted audio signal in the analogue electronics. By activating the HF Filter it is likely that you will hear a positive effect upon the resulting sound quality.
> Phase Pos or Neg”_
> ...


Price for 1m?

https://majorhifi.com/chord-hugo-2-filters-explained/

If you read the link above you can see the differences when putting on the HF filter. It doesn’t just 'cut' the highs but it boosts frequencies as well.  I know this is also the case for the Dave as I can clearly hear it.


----------



## STR-1

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Price for 1m?


Questions about available cable length and price are best put to Mark.  He is usually very quick to reply to emails.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

STR-1 said:


> Questions about available cable length and price are best put to Mark.  He is usually very quick to reply to emails.


Ordered!


----------



## TheAttorney

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Ordered!



That was quick! 
I was very pleased with my Lush^2 - and it is certainly better than the more expensive Tellurium Q model I previously had, and others have reported it to be significantly better than the original Lush.
But the Sablon 2020 is in a league above - particularly in the way it combines both greater detail AND and a more natural, organic presentation. It's also quite light and flexible for an audiophile cable.

The powered version, which is required for Chord equipment for handshaking etc, has the 5v cable completely separate from the signal cable. Mark reckons that it sounds best at its standard length of 1.2M, so he won't do shorter ones. From memory, it sounded great from cold, but improved further after a week or so.

I think the Lush^2 remains a giant killer at its price point, but the Sablon is also a giant killer at its higher price point (something like £575 + VAT).
The difference is that the Sablon can slay bigger giants!


----------



## Triode User

CRITICALSHOT said:


> https://majorhifi.com/chord-hugo-2-filters-explained/
> 
> If you read the link above you can see the differences when putting on the HF filter. It doesn’t just 'cut' the highs but it boosts frequencies as well.  I know this is also the case for the Dave as I can clearly hear it.



I suspect there is a moderate amount of misinformation in that link regarding the H2 filters. The frequency responses shown imply really quite large deviations and I’m sure I have never seen anything similar published. @Rob Watts if you are twiddling your thumbs in an idle moment perhaps you could click on the link quoted and bring some clarity?

Criticalshot, you say that you know that the Dave HF filter cuts the highs and boosts frequencies as well because you can hear it. Many moons ago Rob said the following about the Dave HF filter, “Just to give you an idea how sensitive RF/HF noise is, I have a HF filter option with Dave. This is a 60 kHz filter, and is used to remove the ADC noise shaper noise from 192k, DXD and 384k recordings.” In other words it is not a ‘tone control’ type of filter and has no boost of frequencies.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Triode User said:


> I suspect there is a moderate amount of misinformation in that link regarding the H2 filters. The frequency responses shown imply really quite large deviations and I’m sure I have never seen anything similar published. @Rob Watts if you are twiddling your thumbs in an idle moment perhaps you could click on the link quoted and bring some clarity?
> 
> Criticalshot, you say that you know that the Dave HF filter cuts the highs and boosts frequencies as well because you can hear it. Many moons ago Rob said the following about the Dave HF filter, “Just to give you an idea how sensitive RF/HF noise is, I have a HF filter option with Dave. This is a 60 kHz filter, and is used to remove the ADC noise shaper noise from 192k, DXD and 384k recordings.” In other words it is not a ‘tone control’ type of filter and has no boost of frequencies.


They do have measurements and what I hear aligns to those measurements.  I made an earlier post that said when I had the TT2 I switched filters more than I listened to music.  I listen mostly in two channel and I can hear the differences very easily.  I am very cognizant of the mid range and the groove it creates.  When I cut the filter off on the Dave I could immediately hear what changed in all the frequencies.  My tastes have developed over the last 50 years and my focus is not on hearing the performer blink.  I don't argue the specifics; sometimes people just know what they know.  Some people say they hear no differences in the filters at all; I never questioned them.  I do appreciate the info as the technical data was what I was after.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

TheAttorney said:


> That was quick!
> I was very pleased with my Lush^2 - and it is certainly better than the more expensive Tellurium Q model I previously had, and others have reported it to be significantly better than the original Lush.
> But the Sablon 2020 is in a league above - particularly in the way it combines both greater detail AND and a more natural, organic presentation. It's also quite light and flexible for an audiophile cable.
> 
> ...


I was going to get the Lush 2, but all those permutations would of drove me nuts.  Thanks for helping me validate my purchase!


----------



## naynay

Amberlamps said:


> Ice Cube and co N.W.A sound like a church choir in comparison.


I have a few of there albums on record from back in the day.


----------



## iamoneagain (May 10, 2020)

CRITICALSHOT said:


> They do have measurements and what I hear aligns to those measurements.  I made an earlier post that said when I had the TT2 I switched filters more than I listened to music.  I listen mostly in two channel and I can hear the differences very easily.  I am very cognizant of the mid range and the groove it creates.  When I cut the filter off on the Dave I could immediately hear what changed in all the frequencies.  My tastes have developed over the last 50 years and my focus is not on hearing the performer blink.  I don't argue the specifics; sometimes people just know what they know.  Some people say they hear no differences in the filters at all; I never questioned them.  I do appreciate the info as the technical data was what I was after.



I find it pretty easy to hear the effect of the HF filter on and off. In a roon forum, someone claimed Rob told him to turn if off when using the mscaler.  For me, I prefer it on it even with the mscaler. With Focal Utopia is has more weight and bass with the filter on. I couldn’t even listen to the Utopia on the Hugo 2 without using HF setting. With the Dave, it’s more detailed with it off but just slightly thinner compared to turning it on.  I’m sure what headphone you have hooked up and maybe cables might change that.

After I posted this I decided give the off setting more time. Acoustic tracks are sounding better. I’ll try leaving it off for a few days. Also notice it moves the soundstage forward a little bit which sounds better. And for connection I’m using a Chord Cable Company optical into the mscaler.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

iamoneagain said:


> I find it pretty easy to hear the effect of the HF filter on and off. In a roon forum, someone claimed Rob told him to turn if off when using the mscaler.  For me, I prefer it on it even with the mscaler. With Focal Utopia is has more weight and bass with the filter on. I couldn’t even listen to the Utopia on the Hugo 2 without using HF setting. With the Dave, it’s more detailed with it off but just slightly too thin compared to turning it on.  I’m sure what headphone you have hooked up and maybe cables might change that.


I read that in one of your earlier posts.  I also read someone say that when the Mscaler is connected the HF Filter doesn’t do anything/bypassed.  So you are saying that with the MS on, you can hear the difference between off and on?  That is good to hear as that was a concern of mine.  I didn't want to have to listen to Dave's Mscaled 'HF off' sound.  I would prefer the weightier sound of the 'HF on' Mscaled.


----------



## iamoneagain (May 10, 2020)

CRITICALSHOT said:


> I read that in one of your earlier posts.  I also read someone say that when the Mscaler is connected the HF Filter doesn’t do anything/bypassed.  So you are saying that with the MS on, you can hear the difference between off and on?  That is good to hear as that was a concern of mine.  I didn't want to have to listen to Dave's Mscaled 'HF off' sound.  I would prefer the weightier sound of the 'HF on' Mscaled.



Yes, the filter still has an effect with the mscaler. And until now I haven’t really listened to it off. Perhaps I was so used to it with it on, wasn’t willing to give the off setting a chance. When listening to Tiny Cities by Sun Kil Moon, it sounding better off. The highs are clearer but the mscaler just makes them sparkle and liquidy. Really amazing. And it moves the whole soundstage forward so music is in front of you instead of starting at the sides. This give the illusion of less weight but it might be the better presentation. Seems more natural.

I also don’t ever use the crossfeed feature. I find it changes the sound signature and sometimes gives me an off balanced feeling. Sort of the opposite of why most people turn it on. I grew up on headphones so my brain is tuned for headphone listening.

Edit: Neil Young and Crazy Horse - Everybody Knows This is Nowhere sounds much better with HF filter off. The guitars have that perfect twangy electric guitar sound. With filter on they are too rounded.


----------



## F208Frank

Yes Rob has mentioned HF off when using M scaler with Dave, and HF on when using solo Dave.

Sometimes all the features and settings drives me nuts. I was also the guy who posted that info in Roon because after searching the internet that info was no where to be found.


----------



## Rob Watts

Triode User said:


> I suspect there is a moderate amount of misinformation in that link regarding the H2 filters. The frequency responses shown imply really quite large deviations and I’m sure I have never seen anything similar published. @Rob Watts if you are twiddling your thumbs in an idle moment perhaps you could click on the link quoted and bring some clarity?
> 
> Criticalshot, you say that you know that the Dave HF filter cuts the highs and boosts frequencies as well because you can hear it. Many moons ago Rob said the following about the Dave HF filter, “Just to give you an idea how sensitive RF/HF noise is, I have a HF filter option with Dave. This is a 60 kHz filter, and is used to remove the ADC noise shaper noise from 192k, DXD and 384k recordings.” In other words it is not a ‘tone control’ type of filter and has no boost of frequencies.



Yes ignore those freq response plots in the link. Using sine waves, there is zero measured difference from the 16FS WTA filter (orange) to the 256FS filter (white). There is a measurable effect on freq response with Hugo 2 HF filter (white to green) as it is about -1dB down at 20kHz. But this is not the reason for it sounding warmer as I have been listening to a new HF filter that is flat at 20kHz - and this sounds the same, but it is just flat in the audio bandwidth. So the warmer sound is down to reduction of out of band noise and less noise floor modulation in the DAC, not the -1dB at 20kHz.


----------



## Triode User

@Rob Watts  Thanks, I thought those plots couldn't be anywhere near being right.


----------



## Currawong

The problem with those plots it, the author didn't explain either what he measured or how he measured it. That's a major red flag for any graphs online.


----------



## Amberlamps

naynay said:


> I have a few of there albums on record from back in the day.



Word!


----------



## iamoneagain

Rob, can you confirm that having the HF filter set to off while using the mscaler is the best option?

I know it probably comes down to preference in the end but just from a technical standpoint.


----------



## musickid

It's important to remember that without the 5V on the usb the galvanic isolation on chord dacs and mscaler is not powered.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

STR-1 said:


> One of the top recommendations at the moment is the Sablon Audio 2020 USB cable.  I had the original Curious Link cable, which was bettered by both the original Lush (warm, a little soft, but more soul) and my preferred Sablon Reserva Elite (a little cooler with more detail, low noIse, a little less soul).  The Lush^2 then bettered the original Lush (still a little warm but with more detail and less noise) and made it harder for me to decide between that and the Sablon.  Then very recently Mark Coles of Sablon Audio released a 2020 update to his USB cable, which is in another league.  Noise is further reduced so that you can hear more - better defined bass and clear fatigue-free treble, quite neutral.
> 
> Mark hasn’t updated his website to include the 2020 cable but you can get more info from him at sablonaudio@gmail.com.  You can read what others think of this cable at https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sablon-usb-cable-2020-model.29912/page-5


We have a winner!  The cable is actually Magically Majestic!  I thought I might end up with buyers remorse but I am extremely happy and I appreciate the advice you gave.


----------



## STR-1

CRITICALSHOT said:


> We have a winner!  The cable is actually Magically Majestic!  I thought I might end up with buyers remorse but I am extremely happy and I appreciate the advice you gave.


Wow!  How did you manage to get it that fast after only ordering on Sunday?  It will get better after a bit of running-in.


----------



## koven

+1 for Sablon, I recently swapped my Supra ethernet for Sablon and I'm happy w/ it. Would try their USB but planning to move to I²S in near future.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

STR-1 said:


> Wow!  How did you manage to get it that fast after only ordering on Sunday?  It will get better after a bit of running-in.


I have no idea as it shipped from London to New York.  I can't complain, my patience when waiting is horrible.  I turn into I little kid!


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

My M-Scaler just arrived and it took the Dave to the next level.  No negatives and only substantial improvements.  It did wonders to the soundstage on Agnus Dei from the above album.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (May 15, 2020)

On the subject of USB Cables I have tried all the following and even bought a number of them 1) Chord Electronics free USB cable, 2) Chord Sarum T, 3) Supra USB, 4) Tellurium Q top line USB cable, 5) Synergistic Research 2nd top of line USB, 6) Vertere Pulse HB USB, 7) Danacable Trustream, 8) Mad Scientist Black Magic USB, 9) Final Touch Audio Callisto

Bear in mind I am not connecting my USB cable to the Dave, I am connecting to the Blu MkII M Scaler which connects to my Dave via Dual Coaxial.

All USB cables affected my overall sound but the two I most favoured for my system were 8 & 9. I currently use 9 not because I would say it is particularly better than 8 (both are exceptional imo) but it is a better fit for the sound of my speakers which are a little bass light. The Black Magic adds a little upper bass and definitely adds presence which I like but do not need with my current speakers. The Callisto gives me more bass, thicker mids and sweeter top end and more importantly is just a little better at closing the gap to a linear frequency band in my system. The callisto has great 'weight' imo. The lower mids are well represented. This became more apparent to me as I improved my electrics with superior cables and fuses.

I have been on a 'no cost-barrier' crusade for the last 18 months to take my system to a higher level. I was confident my Dave and M Scaler had more to give and they did. This started with a new Power amp progressed with acoustic room treatment, new cables (digital, analogue and electrical), Grounding Block and even Synergistic research HFT's and ATM.

The thing about the latter 'passive' room treatments from SR is that they do not add, they subtract the room noise that is interfering with your linear frequency band and believe me it is interfering until you do something about it. The crap that is going on in our rooms when music is playing is horrendous. Eventually if you address this you are left with a true representation of the output of your system, so be careful what you wish for! 

For instance I used to like my Danacable but when I paired everything down to the bare bones sound coming out of my speakers it became clear to me that there was a tiring high frequency prominence with this cable not unlike ringing. So the moral of the story here is that cables should be used to balance your system imo but the better you get it the more it will make you critical. A Green SR ATM placed between my speakers on the mantle shelf was the final piece of the jigsaw for me. As close to a perfect frequency/tone balance when using the Callisto USB on my system.

I think for me the overall goal is trying to achieve the most linear frequency balance when choosing cables for my system. When compromised, the dynamics do not deliver for the majority of my music collection and if the dynamics are then compromised on the linear frequency scale so in the drama and musicality for a big chunk of my library.  There are some great cables out there and I will not be selling my Black Magic USB or Townshend Interconnects and speaker cables even though I don't currently use them. If I ever change my speakers I may need them. Its all about balance imo.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (May 15, 2020)

One other take away from this process I found was to never judge a cable without first doing everything possible to ensure the minimum of vibration in the cable. Some flexible cables can be slightly fuzzy in their images as a result of simple vibration but once stabilized they can show they have the beating of others. This is true of the Callisto. I just had to use a little ingenuity to get the best from it.

EDIT:
Here is what I did. Small plastic box placed under the cable to reduce vibration before it goes into the M Scaler. This improved image stability.


----------



## ray-dude

ray-dude said:


> Thank you for the note.
> 
> I have not yet tried it with my Chord TT2, but that is a good suggestion (thank you)
> 
> ...



A quick update to answer my own question for posterity.

I sourced some DSD512 files, and I had the same issue playing them direct to DAVE (DAVE shows DSD512, but no audio comes out).  When I switched the mode from PCM+ to DSD+, everything works as expected.

My take away is that to play DSD512 content, you need to have DAVE in DSD+ mode (with PCM+ limited to DSD256)


----------



## ray-dude

DaveRedRef-III said:


> On the subject of USB Cables I have tried all the following and even bought a number of them 1) Chord Electronics free USB cable, 2) Chord Sarum T, 3) Supra USB, 4) Tellurium Q top line USB cable, 5) Synergistic Research 2nd top of line USB, 6) Vertere Pulse HB USB, 7) Danacable Trustream, 8) Mad Scientist Black Magic USB, 9) Final Touch Audio Callisto



Great write up!

If I may, you may want to reach out to Mark at Sablon Audio.  His new 2020 USB cable basically ended all my USB experimentation (including a bunch of DIY stuff) within the first minute of listening.  I suspect there are a demo cable or two circulating around your side of the pond.  Just fantastic for revealing the coherence and transparency of DAVE (and mScaled DAVE) in an incredibly natural way.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Ray
Thanks for the comment. 

Do you have any links to the new Sablon USB cable for 2020?


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Ray
> Thanks for the comment.
> 
> Do you have any links to the new Sablon USB cable for 2020?


https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sablon-usb-cable-2020-model.29912/

The site is not updated with the new cable.  You have to email him regarding the price and the availability.  I ordered mine on Sunday and got it on Tuesday (London to New York).


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> On the subject of USB Cables I have tried all the following and even bought a number of them 1) Chord Electronics free USB cable, 2) Chord Sarum T, 3) Supra USB, 4) Tellurium Q top line USB cable, 5) Synergistic Research 2nd top of line USB, 6) Vertere Pulse HB USB, 7) Danacable Trustream, 8) Mad Scientist Black Magic USB, 9) Final Touch Audio Callisto
> 
> Bear in mind I am not connecting my USB cable to the Dave, I am connecting to the Blu MkII M Scaler which connects to my Dave via Dual Coaxial.
> 
> ...



Thanks for all that. You have reawakened an interest in the Callisto cable that I started a few weeks ago but then did not pursue because I got diverted by other stuff. However I have now arranged for one to be sent to me on Monday to try . . . . . . .


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

iDesign said:


> @Rob Watts what are your current recommendations for settings when using the DAVE and Blu MkII in headphone mode? Do you still advise:
> 
> *HF Filter:* (ON)
> *Phase Pos or Neg: *(Pos ON)
> ...


Where have you finally settled and why as to *HF Filter:* (ON) or (OFF)?


----------



## CRITICALSHOT (May 17, 2020)

ray-dude said:


> My general rule is HF filter on unless using a Blu2, and crossfeed on for headphones (level depends on recording) and cross feed off for two channel
> 
> Caution: if you turn on CF for headphones, it stays on for two channel. Turn off CF before unplugging headphones.


Do you still follow this general rule and why?


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Rob Watts said:


> Normally it should be on.
> But with Blu 2 it sounds better off.
> Don't ask me why, as it is too complicated to explain; but in short it was lessons learned when the HF filter was improving the SQ with 44.1 kHz, when it should have had no change to the SQ.
> Rob


Bump


----------



## iDesign

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Where have you finally settled and why as to *HF Filter:* (ON) or (OFF)?


Depending on the recording, I generally prefer the HF Filter (ON) with the DAVE. With the Blu Mk II, the setting is (OFF). Also I do not use cross feeds ever and it is a personal preference.


----------



## F208Frank

Triode User said:


> Thanks for all that. You have reawakened an interest in the Callisto cable that I started a few weeks ago but then did not pursue because I got diverted by other stuff. However I have now arranged for one to be sent to me on Monday to try . . . . . . .


Please update with honest feedback. Curious myself.


----------



## Triode User

F208Frank said:


> Please update with honest feedback. Curious myself.



Will do, I have also been loaned a Sablon 2020 by a generous Head-Fi member. . . . . .


----------



## ray-dude

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Do you still follow this general rule and why?



i do. I’ve found that without headphones (using speakers) there is a natural crossfeed between the left and right channels (each ear can hear both speakers). When listening to headphones, with CF0 it feels a bit unnatural to me. Ideal CF seems to vary from recording to recording, so I fiddle until I find the setting that feels most natural.

the exception for me is when I’m listening to binaural recordings on headphones. Then I want CF set to zero (the crossfeed is naturally there in the recording process)

these days I use my DAVE exclusively for 2 channel and my TT2 exclusively for headphones, so I’m not switching CF like I used to

as always, CF should be set to whatever sounds best and most natural for the recordings you listen to.


----------



## ZappaMan

ray-dude said:


> i do. I’ve found that without headphones (using speakers) there is a natural crossfeed between the left and right channels (each ear can hear both speakers). When listening to headphones, with CF0 it feels a bit unnatural to me. Ideal CF seems to vary from recording to recording, so I fiddle until I find the setting that feels most natural.
> 
> the exception for me is when I’m listening to binaural recordings on headphones. Then I want CF set to zero (the crossfeed is naturally there in the recording process)
> 
> ...


what headphones are you using Ray?


----------



## ray-dude

T


ZappaMan said:


> what headphones are you using Ray?



These days I have Abyss AB-1266 Phi TC's and Sennheiser HD800 (with SR mod)  Both are pretty expansive and "speaker like", so dialing in crossfeed is pretty satisfying (I'm primarily a two channel speaker listener still, but having everyone stuck in the house together is "encouraging" more headphone use


----------



## 474194 (May 18, 2020)

Hi @ray-dude

Apologies for bugging you with this speaker question, but you are in a unique position in this hobby.  Outside this Head-Fi simulation world, I doubt I would be able to find any answers.  Too much foot traffic on other threads so will ask here since it could apply to DAVE, TT2 or H2.

Recently, I re-purchased a Mojo.  To my surprise I was able to get it completely neutral and uncoloured.  No warmness at all.  I label it "Hugo1.5" because it's more a Hugo1 sig than a Mojo sig.  I run a i2S source and a glass optical cable, so no USB or headphone manufacturer adding it's own flavour in the mix.  Just super neutral, transparent and studio reference ready.  This has me considering that my Hugo2 transportable maybe expendable, so looking into upstream Chord and speakers.  The below poster which probably had around half a mill in audio/headphone gear still craves for these same CIEMs to this day, so I think I can be content with my portable setup and move on to something else.  These are the only neutral done right CIEMs ever produced (Jerry Harvey tuned in his prime).  This makes the Hugo2 a luxury because a TT2 w/ speakers may make more sense since my Hugo2 transportable rig overall is close in cost to a standalone TT2 and the Mojo fulfills the CIEM duties neutrally.






So here's the speaker question.  I want max resolution and max transparency, but I don't want to go the Voxativ or Omega route.  I think I can get something close with a 2-way as long as the crossover points don't overlap too much.  I don't want a passive crossover in the mix since I'm driving direct.  No point in going down this rabbit hole if I can't get max res max transparency.  I want to run active.  The below photo speaker specs are 8ohm, 91db for the mid-woofer and 8ohm, 92db for the beryllium tweeter.  These are modern speakers with high sensitivity and extremely fast response to transients which should pair well with Chord DACs.  I think the H2 maybe able to run these to some extent.













Questions?:

Basically, I can just use RCA -> tweeter and 6.3mm -> midwoofer?  I'm not sure if XLR will be too overpowering.
Do you see any issues with running a 2-way without the passive crossover?  Chord is unique in that the traditional methods don't apply, so I think I can get away with this method crossover-less.  The midwoofer plays high enough and the tweeter plays low enough so it covers the whole freq range.
Thanks and surfs' up!


----------



## ray-dude

If you can get a natural cross over to work (ie, no cross over at all) then the transparency question comes down to how well matched the drivers are to each other.  You will also be splitting the limited H2 power between the two (TT2 obviously would have no problem).  The natural cross over point between these drivers I suspect may be in a sensitive range of the audio spectrum.  You will hear the overlap region, and any differences in teh drivers.  As always, give it a listen!  Your ears will quickly tell you whether the transparency benefit you're hearing makes up for any tonal balance issues you may have (alas, there is always a tradeoff between those two).

In terms of value to the dollar, I still think Omega Super Alnico Monitors ($1500ish used) + a Voxativ Zeth bass unit (harder to find used, but they are out there) driven direct is remarkable value.  SAMs cover everything above 40-45Hz or so, and the Zeth bass units basically turn them into full range speakers (the bass is ultra fast, and it has its own amp).  You lose some transparency on the low end (amp + low pass filter in the Zeth unit) but the speed and precision of the Zeth is so off the charts that you really get a very different experience of bass from most anything you've heard out there.

Very much a full range speaker experience, but driven direct from H2/DAVE/TT2.  

Even here, you have some tonal balance issues with the SAMs, but the transparency and sense of coherence is intoxicating (at least for me...others I know have different priorities and sensitivities/preferences).

(And yes, to this day I still miss my Mojo...what a remarkable box!  Heres hoping for a Mojo2, and here's hoping even more for a Rob-blessed digital eq so we can all get past these tonal balance issues and eat our transparency cake and have tonal balance too)


----------



## Triode User

ray-dude said:


> Even here, you have some tonal balance issues with the SAMs, but the transparency and sense of coherence is intoxicating (at least for me...others I know have different priorities and sensitivities/preferences).



Were you thinking of me there?     My Pass Labs mono power amps are not going anywhere!


----------



## 474194 (May 18, 2020)

ray-dude said:


> If you can get a natural cross over to work (ie, no cross over at all) then the transparency question comes down to how well matched the drivers are to each other.  You will also be splitting the limited H2 power between the two (TT2 obviously would have no problem).  The natural cross over point between these drivers I suspect may be in a sensitive range of the audio spectrum.  You will hear the overlap region, and any differences in teh drivers.  As always, give it a listen!  Your ears will quickly tell you whether the transparency benefit you're hearing makes up for any tonal balance issues you may have (alas, there is always a tradeoff between those two).
> 
> In terms of value to the dollar, I still think Omega Super Alnico Monitors ($1500ish used) + a Voxativ Zeth bass unit (harder to find used, but they are out there) driven direct is remarkable value.  SAMs cover everything above 40-45Hz or so, and the Zeth bass units basically turn them into full range speakers (the bass is ultra fast, and it has its own amp).  You lose some transparency on the low end (amp + low pass filter in the Zeth unit) but the speed and precision of the Zeth is so off the charts that you really get a very different experience of bass from most anything you've heard out there.
> 
> ...



Yes, that's another thing.  Once the Mojo2 is released, it will make the H2 even more expendable.

I should of stated my plan.  I was considering these for car audio since I'm not a stationary listener.  You know how Los Angelinos luv their car audio.  2 8" in kick panels near the feet and tweeters above the dash.  I can go H2 with car amplifier built-in crossover points, but good car amps run around $1800.  I figured TT2 would be the better buy, but your points have me reconsidering.  Car amps is easy since you just input RCA and set xover points to not overlap.

So I'll try with the H2 direct.  If the balance is off, I'll add car amps.  If it's solid, maybe upgrade to TT2.

I'm trying to run something like this, but with the 8" in the bottom left and right corners.  The TT2 should provide more than enough power:





Also, maybe I'll check if Louis sells DIY drivers without cabinets.

As long as it's possible, I'll take it from there...

Cheers


----------



## ray-dude

Triode User said:


> Were you thinking of me there?     My Pass Labs mono power amps are not going anywhere!



Ha!  Missing these discussions my friend.  Hope all is well on your side of the pond, and that you and yours and healthy are happy (you guys get to drink beer and whiskey to manage the virus, we alas have to drink bleach)


----------



## 474194

There was actually a Voxativ event in the UK earlier this year that I forgot to post since I was focused on portable....





Still can't believe ray-dude has the same speaks as the Hoff:


----------



## JaZZ (May 18, 2020)

AC-12 said:


> Questions?:
> 
> Basically, I can just use RCA -> tweeter and 6.3mm -> midwoofer?  I'm not sure if XLR will be too overpowering.
> Do you see any issues with running a 2-way without the passive crossover?  Chord is unique in that the traditional methods don't apply, so I think I can get away with this method crossover-less.  The midwoofer plays high enough and the tweeter plays low enough so it covers the whole freq range.


The tweeter can't be fed with low frequencies, so it would need either a passive high-pass filter (at least a capacitor) or to be accessed via actively high-pass filtered signals.

It's not so clear if the lack of low-pass filtering for the woofer will result in higher transparency, as this approach could just as well lead to reduced transparency due to break-up and resonant tendencies of the heavy paper (?) membrane at higher frequencies. Moreover the narrowing dispersion angle of the high-frequency radiation could lead to sonic irritations if there are high enough sound pressure levels left there (which would interfere with the tweeter!).


----------



## Triode User

ray-dude said:


> Ha!  Missing these discussions my friend.  Hope all is well on your side of the pond, and that you and yours and healthy are happy (you guys get to drink beer and whiskey to manage the virus, we alas have to drink bleach)



Yeah, me too missing our friendly jousting. Speaking of which, I am feeling sorry that you are not enjoying a DC4 driven Dave.   

Do you drink vintage bleach or make do with blended? I found a bottle of 26 year old Rioja at the back of the wine rack to celebrate the end of full lockdown. It had kept very well and was a real treat.


----------



## 474194 (May 18, 2020)

JaZZ said:


> The tweeter can't be fed with low frequencies, so it would need either a passive high-pass filter (at least a capacitor) or to be accessed via actively high-pass filtered signals.
> 
> It's not so clear if the lack of low-pass filtering for the woofer will result in higher transparency, as this approach could just as well lead to reduced transparency due to break-up and resonant tendencies of the heavy paper (?) membrane at higher frequencies. Moreover the narrowing dispersion angle of the high-frequency radiation could lead to sonic irritations if there are high enough sound pressure levels left there (which would interfere with the tweeter!).



Cheers.  I was considering adding a capacitor only if really needed:

https://www.parts-express.com/cat/c...MIr9zKlZ--6QIVWB6tBh3QPwpzEAAYASAAEgKiafD_BwE

I think it's much safer to just get a Voxativ (10ohm, 100db) in the kick panel as things can get quite messy freq-wise.  I should be able to drive at a decent volume w/ the H2 according to dmance.





I can get a super tweeter above the dash to raise the stage if needed.  This would turn out a more simple non-messy, affordable solution as you would not need the TT2 power but you still have max rez and transparency out of a Chord DAC.  This would make the H2 re-purposeful and not expendable.


----------



## Jon L

AC-12 said:


> Hi @ray-dude
> 
> Apologies for bugging you with this speaker question, but you are in a unique position in this hobby.  Outside this Head-Fi simulation world, I doubt I would be able to find any answers.  Too much foot traffic on other threads so will ask here since it could apply to DAVE, TT2 or H2.
> 
> ...



Where is the speaker photo from?  I see substantial passive crossover sitting on top of the speakers, and there is essentially zero chance the two drivers without any kind of crossover will sound "better" than with proper crossover, passive or active.  The woofer will 'beam" like crazy as frequencies go higher, with likely peaky/choppy frequency response as cone breaks up.  Crossover will filter these nasties out usually.  Tweeter will likely will blow up if driven with full frequency at loudish levels. so some kind protection is needed.  It too will have likely large resonance peaks as it tries to reach down lower in frequency, which crossover will usually filter out.


----------



## Jon L

And here is the FR for that ellipticor woofer.


----------



## 474194 (May 18, 2020)

Jon L said:


> Where is the speaker photo from?  I see substantial passive crossover sitting on top of the speakers, and there is essentially zero chance the two drivers without any kind of crossover will sound "better" than with proper crossover, passive or active.  The woofer will 'beam" like crazy as frequencies go higher, with likely peaky/choppy frequency response as cone breaks up.  Crossover will filter these nasties out usually.  Tweeter will likely will blow up if driven with full frequency at loudish levels. so some kind protection is needed.  It too will have likely large resonance peaks as it tries to reach down lower in frequency, which crossover will usually filter out.



It's from this fella whom sells DIY kits w/ passive:

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Ellipticor-3.htm

http://www.jantzen-audio.com/ellipticor3/

Since Chord products are different from traditional and can output from 3.5mm, 6.3mm, XLR and RCA in-sync, I was just seeing if 2-way is a possibility.

Looks like I need to stick with full range drivers if I want max res max transparency.

A full range (Chord direct) w/ woofers (RCA to amp) may also work.

These 6+1 2-ways are common for a complete system.  It's just the overlap I'm concerned over without a passive.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Ellipticor-1.htm

I can play it safe by adding an electronic crossover and amps w/ h2 RCA source, but exploring Chord direct output first.  It defeats my goal of maxing out resolution and transparency, but should still sound good.  No passives involved:


----------



## 474194

Thanks for the discussion guys and sorry for the distraction.

It became clear after the exchanges to just re-purpose the Hugo2.  That seems like the optimal choice versus upgrading for this specific application.  The Hugo2 was in limbo and I just didn't know if it served a need anymore, but it does now.

Plan A (80%):  Go H2 + Electronic Xover + Amps + Ellipticor speaks to compensate for road noise.  Should be clean without any passives.  As close to direct without being direct I guess.
Plan B (20%):  Take a risk and go H2 + Voxativ full range.  Voxativ doesn't seem durable tho for outside environments, so probably punt / pass.
Carry On.


----------



## Triode User (May 19, 2020)

AC-12 said:


> Looks like I need to stick with full range drivers if I want max res max transparency.



I think full range drivers are something of a misnomer. They used to be described at being good for a girl with a ukulele (or was it banjo?) type of music if you know what I mean. The really good ones are better than that but they get expensive. Make sure you hear before you buy and with all types of music at the likely volumes you will want. What they do, they do well, but they are not a full and proper substitute for traditional drivers with a suitable amplifier if for instance you want to play rock music at realistic levels - IMHO of course. (I call realistic levels where you can feel the music in your stomach as well as hear it.)


----------



## jarnopp

Triode User said:


> I think full range drivers are something of a misnomer. They used to be described at being good for a girl with a ukulele (or was it banjo?) type of music if you know what I mean. The really good ones are better than that but they get expensive. Make sure you hear before you buy and with all types of music at the likely volumes you will want. What they do, they do well, but they are not a full and proper substitute for traditional drivers with a suitable amplifier if for instance you want to play rock music at realistic levels - IMHO of course. (I call realistic levels where you can feel the music in your stomach as well as hear it.)



You need a good, fast, well-integrated subwoofer for that, but you can get there, or pretty close, while keeping the best of the single-driver aesthetic, i.e., transparency.


----------



## 474194 (May 19, 2020)

Triode User said:


> I think full range drivers are something of a misnomer. They used to be described at being good for a girl with a ukulele (or was it banjo?) type of music if you know what I mean. The really good ones are better than that but they get expensive. Make sure you hear before you buy and with all types of music at the likely volumes you will want. What they do, they do well, but they are not a full and proper substitute for traditional drivers with a suitable amplifier if for instance you want to play rock music at realistic levels - IMHO of course. (I call realistic levels where you can feel the music in your stomach as well as hear it.)



Thank you for your concern.  Like any tech or products, new school vs. old school thinking will collide.  Chord allows a new school of thinking that was never possible for the max resolution transparency.  I don't know if I can live without this if I get into speakers as I need this in my portable and transportable gear.

Full range speakers are quite popular in car audio.  As long as your nearfield and near on-axis, a tweeter is not needed.  Numerous car audio competitions have been won with no tweeters in sight.  The experienced judges would be able to distinguish if there was anything audible missing.  I understand if you need to fill a room of music, but if you are listening near on-axis, full range can work wonderfully.  Every speaker manufacturer in the world tries to gift Steve Hoffman speakers, but he only allows max 3 in his home.  If there were any issues with full range, I would think he would not accept them in his home.  It just takes time to accept bleeding edge products sometimes.

There's a Voxativ shop between Los Angeles and Las Vegas, so I'll try to take your advice and try to see if it works for my use case.





Since the below speaker is 4 ohm and mid-80's sensitivity, I don't know if the TT2 can handle direct.  But the issue again is freq overlap and if one can tell the balance is off.    They are developed to match and blend with one another, but will have to try hands-on if you need fixed xover point or if they can run active xover-less.  I want pure SQ so would prefer to run just direct.


----------



## 474194 (May 19, 2020)

There's also a popular DIY full ranger that I have yet seen a Chord poster try out:









https://www.parts-express.com/tang-band-w8-1808-8-neodymium-full-range-driver--264-894

http://www.pureaudioproject.com/pro...audioproject-full-range-open-baffle-speakers/

http://www.pureaudioproject.com/product/trio15tb-open-baffle-speakers/

Too large in size for my application, but I think a Mojo can power these.


----------



## PhenixS1970

Exciting times to come.  Finally my new speakers, Vivid Audio Kaya 25 are in transit from the factory in South Africa to the distributor.  They were ready for shipment 2 months ago but due to the C-lock down suspended.  My Chord gear is waiting for their arrival


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

PhenixS1970 said:


> Exciting times to come.  Finally my new speakers, Vivid Audio Kaya 25 are in transit from the factory in South Africa to the distributor.  They were ready for shipment 2 months ago but due to the C-lock down suspended.  My Chord gear is waiting for their arrival


Damn 2 months!  I feel your pain...


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Triode User said:


> Will do, I have also been loaned a Sablon 2020 by a generous Head-Fi member. . . . . .


We await the the comparisons!


----------



## BPED

Hello, a question for all you Dave experts...

I use Dave as pre-amp connected via XLR to active speakers. I am also considering adding a headphones amp to the Dave via RCA output.
May I use the Dave in DAC mode for my heasdphones amp while also connected to my active speakers? Or will I blow the speakers?
I doesn't seem possible to select output in DAC mode to send signal via RCA and not via XLR.

Is adding a pre-amplifier my only option to solve this?
thank you!


----------



## JTbbb

BPED said:


> Hello, a question for all you Dave experts...
> 
> I use Dave as pre-amp connected via XLR to active speakers. I am also considering adding a headphones amp to the Dave via RCA output.
> May I use the Dave in DAC mode for my heasdphones amp while also connected to my active speakers? Or will I blow the speakers?
> ...



I think your safest route would be to leave Dave in pre-amp mode and then turn power off to whichever you are not listening to. I guess the alternative would be DAC mode when listening to the headphone amp, but you would have to make sure your active speakers were powered off!!


----------



## BPED

JTbbb said:


> I think your safest route would be to leave Dave in pre-amp mode and then turn power off to whichever you are not listening to. I guess the alternative would be DAC mode when listening to the headphone amp, but you would have to make sure your active speakers were powered off!!



Hi JTbbb, thanks. Yes it seems there are no options other than turning off the speakers or unplug them... and keeping "pre" mode ensures that if I forget to do that I am not shot through the roof  

Turning the speakers off actually is pretty easy but I am afraid that doing that daily I would be damaging them in the medium term. @Triode User , do you have an opinion on the latter point since you are a fellow ATC owner please?


----------



## ecwl

BPED said:


> Hello, a question for all you Dave experts...
> 
> I use Dave as pre-amp connected via XLR to active speakers. I am also considering adding a headphones amp to the Dave via RCA output.
> May I use the Dave in DAC mode for my heasdphones amp while also connected to my active speakers? Or will I blow the speakers?
> ...


I think I there are two issues here.
1. You should just always leave your DAVE in pre-amp mode because -3dB is 100% identical to DAC mode. That way, you can compare whether its better to use the volume control of the ATC or the DAVE. In fact, the optimal setup would probably be to figure out the optimal performance volume of the ATC and leave it there and then use DAVE pre-amp to adjust the volume.
2. RCA and XLR are always on at the same time, you can disable them together if you have something plugged into the headphone jack. So theoretically, one solution is to have a good headphone jack to RCA adaptor to plug into your headphone amp to silence the XLR output. Sure, you’ll lose a bit of transparency with this adaptor, instead of directly plugging the headphone amp into the RCA output of the DAVE. But you’re losing transparency by using a headphone amp instead of the headphone jack of DAVE anyway. But yes, if you want to play around with external headphone amps, you’re going to either have to turn off the ATC or plug the headphone amps into the headphone jack, rather than through the RCA at the back


----------



## Triode User

astrostar59 said:


> The Final Touch Audio Callisto is the best USB cable I have heard. It has a big following over on What's Best Forum.



After today I have a bank holiday weekend ahead of me here in the UK with these two babies. I would probably assess myself as being on the skeptical bench when it comes to USB cables but those whose judgement I trust own and recommend these two. So by virtue of a generous Head-Fi member who has loaned his cable and a helpful dealer who has supplied the other I am able to try them for myself.


----------



## Triode User

BPED said:


> Hi JTbbb, thanks. Yes it seems there are no options other than turning off the speakers or unplug them... and keeping "pre" mode ensures that if I forget to do that I am not shot through the roof
> 
> Turning the speakers off actually is pretty easy but I am afraid that doing that daily I would be damaging them in the medium term. @Triode User , do you have an opinion on the latter point since you are a fellow ATC owner please?



In the system with my ATC 150 actives I keep Dave powered up 24/7 and in AMP mode so I can use it to control the volume of the active speakers. If I remember, I put Dave into standby after I have finished listening for the day but more often than not I forget to do that. My ATC speakers are powered through a remote control switch so I do not need to reach behind them to power on and off. I tend to power the ATCs on in the morning and off when I leave the room later in the day (they are in my work room / office).


----------



## BPED

ecwl said:


> I think I there are two issues here.
> 1. ... That way, you can compare whether its better to use the volume control of the ATC or the DAVE. In fact, the optimal setup would probably be to figure out the optimal performance volume of the ATC and leave it there and then use DAVE pre-amp to adjust the volume.


I am not sure I understand, the ATC have no volume control, they need a pre, which in my case is the Dave. Maybe you meant to say "whether its better to use the volume control of the headphones amp or the DAVE"



ecwl said:


> 2.
> So theoretically, one solution is to have a good headphone jack to RCA adaptor to plug into your headphone amp to silence the XLR output



thanks! I didn't think about it, I should at least give it a try..

A third option is to unplug the XLR cables from the Dave each time I use the headphones amp


----------



## BPED

Triode User said:


> In the system with my ATC 150 actives I keep Dave powered up 24/7 and in AMP mode so I can use it to control the volume of the active speakers. If I remember, I put Dave into standby after I have finished listening for the day but more often than not I forget to do that. My ATC speakers are powered through a remote control switch so I do not need to reach behind them to power on and off. I tend to power the ATCs on in the morning and off when I leave the room later in the day (they are in my work room / office).


Thanks. Interesting.... I never power off my speakers as said, good to know they some users do it daily, apparently without issues. I would also be a plus here during the summer nights  since the speakers are always a bit warm.


----------



## Triode User

BPED said:


> Thanks. Interesting.... I never power off my speakers as said, good to know they some users do it daily, apparently without issues. I would also be a plus here during the summer nights  since the speakers are always a bit warm.



It never occurred to me not to do it. There is a slight burp through the speakers when they are powered off but not much really.


----------



## AndrewOld

When I had ATC 100s I kept them powered on a lot of the time. Then I got one of those thingies that measured how much power an appliance draws. They were costing me a fortune! iirc they pulled around 100/150W, which works out at a non-trivial amount of money a year. The amps are Class A/B but run in Class A until quite high power levels, which means they are taking power whether or not they are doing anything.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Triode User said:


> After today I have a bank holiday weekend ahead of me here in the UK with these two babies. I would probably assess myself as being on the skeptical bench when it comes to USB cables but those whose judgement I trust own and recommend these two. So by virtue of a generous Head-Fi member who has loaned his cable and a helpful dealer who has supplied the other I am able to try them for myself.


Early impressions?


----------



## Triode User

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Early impressions?



No impressions (or indeed listening) yet. I have been running around like a blue 4rsed fly all week and will be listening over the weekend.


----------



## BPED

BPED said:


> Thanks. Interesting.... I never power off my speakers as said, good to know they some users do it daily, apparently without issues. I would also be a plus here during the summer nights  since the speakers are always a bit warm.



I wrote to ATC and I just got a fast reply: no problem at all to power the ATC off every evening (great customers support!). 
So the case is closed for me, easy solution... My dealer advised wrongly when I bought them, what a waste, besides the heat and the money I really hate the idea to waste electricity/water etc
Anyway always good to get ideas from this community.


----------



## Triode User

Triode User said:


> No impressions (or indeed listening) yet. I have been running around like a blue 4rsed fly all week and will be listening over the weekend.



Ok, I have a nice glass of red wine at my side and it is time to wind down and listen to some usb cables. I was anticipating that this was going to be a difficult to hear differences type of experience because I had my usb cable skeptics hat pulled down tight over my ears.

But here we are only 30 minutes into the comparison and I feel compelled to do an interim report.

I am listening with an Innuos Statement running Roon and set up to output to the experimental Squeezebox Lite endpoint. (Which by the way is now rock solid since installing the Innuos 1.4.4 upgrade a couple of days ago).

The Statement is connected by USB to an MScaler connected to Dave by dual BNC cables which you can probably guess which but I can’t name. Both MScaler and Dave are powered by Sean Jacobs DC4 power supplies.

The Dave is connected to Pass Labs XA60.8 monoblocs amps driving Spendor SP200 speakers.

I normally use Supra USB 2.0 cables which are not expensive but are well made and sound fine. By that I mean I had probably made up my mind that USB cables are pretty much of a muchness and as long as they were fully compliant with USB then there couldn’t be any issues.

Indeed when I sat down just now to focus in on the Supra cables as a reference in the system it sounded amazing. In fact just the way it always sounds. It was stunning.

Sorry, just let me reach forward in Keith Floyd style for a slurp of wine (does anyone remember his cookery programmes?)

Where was I, yes, then I tried the Sablon 2020 cable and the Callisto USB cable and I admit was instantly blown away by both of them. This was not a subtle change. Gone was a slightly bloated bass that I hadn’t noticed before and instead there was rock solid bass with all sorts of detail. There are lots of other changes to the music but now I’m settling in to listen to each in more detail. It is now not a question of whether I will change my usb cable, rather which one I will change to using.

I was not expecting this.


----------



## koven

Look forward to your further impressions on Sablon vs FTA.. as a side note, do you mean the latest Innuos update completely fixed the track change issue w/ Squeezelite?


----------



## Triode User

koven said:


> as a side note, do you mean the latest Innuos update completely fixed the track change issue w/ Squeezelite?



So far, yes. 100% fix.


----------



## onlychild (May 22, 2020)

Triode User said:


> Ok, I have a nice glass of red wine at my side and it is time to wind down and listen to some usb cables. I was anticipating that this was going to be a difficult to hear differences type of experience because I had my usb cable skeptics hat pulled down tight over my ears.
> 
> But here we are only 30 minutes into the comparison and I feel compelled to do an interim report.
> 
> ...



Wait till you try some upgraded power cables!

The Sablon King or Prince will bring your pass labs or DC4’s into a new territory.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Triode User said:


> Ok, I have a nice glass of red wine at my side and it is time to wind down and listen to some usb cables. I was anticipating that this was going to be a difficult to hear differences type of experience because I had my usb cable skeptics hat pulled down tight over my ears.
> 
> But here we are only 30 minutes into the comparison and I feel compelled to do an interim report.
> 
> ...


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

ecwl said:


> DAVE only has DAC mode vs Digital Pre mode so I presume when you say Amp mode, you mean DAC mode? I didn’t actually think anyone puts DAVE in Amp/DAC mode. Mostly because if you want DAC mode, you can just set the volume at -3dB because they’re 100% identical. DAVE would give 3V output. And if your pre-amp/amp actually clips at 3V, you can set DAVE to -7dB for 2V or -13dB for 1V. It just makes using DAVE much more convenient instead of locking it at 3V. To turn off DAC mode, you just press the Left and Right button at the same time until DAVE says Chord DAVE Digital Pre at the bottom of the screen. Or you should be able to just turn off and then on the DAC again as I think it always defaults to Digital Pre mode. DAVE clips at 3-4dB in Digital Pre mode and I think it gives about 6-7V? So bottom line is that you just change the volume by turning the knob or using the remote.


100% identical?  I am asking, as preamp to preamp is generally not recommended.  I felt like I was getting some distortion from my streamer to my preamp. I had been setting the streamer to control the volume. I decreased it some and the issue was resolved but when setting the streamer to control the volume it converts DSD to PCM.  I remembered this post in the back of my mind and decided to go the preamp route as to not have DSD converted.  This post was very helpful!


----------



## ecwl

CRITICALSHOT said:


> 100% identical?  I am asking, as preamp to preamp is generally not recommended.  I felt like I was getting some distortion from my streamer to my preamp. I had been setting the streamer to control the volume. I decreased it some and the issue was resolved but when setting the streamer to control the volume it converts DSD to PCM.  I remembered this post in the back of my mind and decided to go the preamp route as to not have DSD converted.  This post was very helpful!


For clarification:
1) DAVE doesn’t have a “pre-amp”. It is a high-voltage DAC that has a high-end digital volume control. It can go up to 6-7V so to make it simple for users, when the digital volume control is set to -3dB, the DAC puts out 3V so an addition “mode” is created called “DAC mode” so that people who have turntables can pair DAVE with an analog preamplifier without thinking too hard about it and just setting DAVE to the “DAC mode”. This is why if you put Chord DAVE in ”pre-amp” mode and set it to -3dB = 3V, and connect it to an analog pre-amp, you’re not putting the Chord DAC through two preamps with further degradation. Your analog pre-amp has to receive a signal from the DAC, assuming it doesn’t clip at 3V, then it usually expects 3V from the DAC and that’s the signal Chord is providing the pre-amp.
2) You should not set volume at the streamer for Chord DACs with digital volume controls. Chord DACs usually adjust volumes after upsampling at 705.6kHz/768kHz with >24 bit accuracy whereas if you’re adjusting the volume at the streamer, you’re usually adjusting at the native 44.1kHz with <24 bit accuracy (though not always). The digital volume control is always going to be more accurate through the Chord hardware than through the streamer/PC.
3) If you’re using your streamer to control the volume (and I doubt most streamers actually increase the volume beyond the original signal) and you noticed that your preamp was having some distortions and when you set the streamer volume lower and you hear less distortion, usually, what this means is that your analog preamp is clipping at 3V. This is the other reason for not setting Chord DAVE to DAC mode because I have seen some surprisingly high-end pre-amp clip at 3V (and rarely even at 2V). If you need to have an analog preamp in the chain, your best bet then is to set the streamer to stream bit-perfect to M-scaler/DAVE and then set DAVE to -7dB for 2V (or if you’re using M-Scaler set DAVE to -4dB) and then use the analog volume control of your pre-amp, you should no longer hear the distortion As your pre-amp is no longer clipped. This is likely the optimal setup for your system.

Of course some of this is speculation as I didn’t get a detailed description of your setup and issues. But based on what has been said, this would be my best guess as to your distortion issue.


----------



## jacc

BPED said:


> I wrote to ATC and I just got a fast reply: no problem at all to power the ATC off every evening (great customers support!).
> So the case is closed for me, easy solution... My dealer advised wrongly when I bought them, what a waste, besides the heat and the money I really hate the idea to waste electricity/water etc
> Anyway always good to get ideas from this community.





BPED said:


> I wrote to ATC and I just got a fast reply: no problem at all to power the ATC off every evening (great customers support!).
> So the case is closed for me, easy solution... My dealer advised wrongly when I bought them, what a waste, besides the heat and the money I really hate the idea to waste electricity/water etc
> Anyway always good to get ideas from this community.


I also switch off my ACT50aslt every night as it is more environmental friendly. It is a bit of a hassle but you may leave your preamp / source on as I don't think they draw much power


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Triode User said:


> Ok, I have a nice glass of red wine at my side and it is time to wind down and listen to some usb cables. I was anticipating that this was going to be a difficult to hear differences type of experience because I had my usb cable skeptics hat pulled down tight over my ears.
> 
> But here we are only 30 minutes into the comparison and I feel compelled to do an interim report.
> 
> ...


Any further impressions?


----------



## skootb

Triode User said:


> Ok, I have a nice glass of red wine at my side and it is time to wind down and listen to some usb cables. I was anticipating that this was going to be a difficult to hear differences type of experience because I had my usb cable skeptics hat pulled down tight over my ears.
> 
> But here we are only 30 minutes into the comparison and I feel compelled to do an interim report.
> 
> ...



I miss my xa60.8s. had them each on a sablon gran corona with sablon panatela cables to the Von Schwekert unifield 3s...it was killer


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Whilst we are eagerly awaiting TU’s thoughts on USB cables I thought I would check Dave’s handling of clocked and un-clocked data feeds.

So I moved my USB cable from the Innuos Statement USB DAC out (clocked) to the plain USB out (unclocked). Even though Dave re-clocks everything there is a clear difference. Un-clocked output results in less focus, less resolution and a less musical feed. It is less engaging.

In a way that surprises me. I didn’t expect a difference.


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Whilst we are eagerly awaiting TU’s thoughts on USB cables I thought I would check Dave’s handling of clocked and un-clocked data feeds.
> 
> So I moved my USB cable from the Innuos Statement USB DAC out (clocked) to the plain USB out (unclocked). Even though Dave re-clocks everything there is a clear difference. Un-clocked output results in less focus, less resolution and a less musical feed. It is less engaging.
> 
> In a way that surprises me. I didn’t expect a difference.



It is however consistent with my listening with my previous Innuos Zenith SE with and without the Innuos Phoenix reclocker. The Phoenix made a clearly audible improvement in all the areas you mention and also to me ears gave a clear improvement to the bass depth and detail.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

The structure of music when correct is immediately noticeable imo. From the first quiet opening bars of Verdi's Requiem it was obvious to me which was the right USB stream. 

There is something about 'live' music (which can be heard even from outside a venue or room) that resonates in the body. It doesn't even have to be a rythme. It can be simply a chord but it is immediately noticeable is engaging. When hifi is very good, the same can be achieved and when right is equally engaging even with unfamiliar music too. I think the reproduction of harmonic resonance is critical to this primaeval engagement with music. Dynamics too. The harmonics of brass instruments played in unison meld to one in live performance. They should do the same with our hifi I think.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Which would make the biggest difference; a 'fancy pants' power cord for the Dave or the Streamer?


----------



## onlychild

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Which would make the biggest difference; a 'fancy pants' power cord for the Dave or the Streamer?


If by streamer, you mean an upgraded server like an Innuos, then a streamer upgrade will be more beneficial.  

In my opinion, source is still king.  If it’s lost at the source, you can’t recover it down the chain, no matter how good your dac or amp is.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (May 26, 2020)

Whilst I agree with OC on source, Dave can do a lot with a simple source. I think cost is always a consideration too. For me the biggest jump in SQ I heard on my system for least cost in the last 3 years (and they are not cheap) was changing 5 fuses over to Synergistic Research Orange Fuses.

Improving my electrics overall delivered very long lasting results in terms of musical enjoyment. Good clean flowing electrics make even average cost hifi sound much more natural imo. Especially mass orchestral strings. I used to think the lack of smoothness and edge on mass strings was on the recording but it is not.

There is some great stuff out there these days and I am continually surprised at the quality of gear. I recently bought a Kimber Palladian PK10 power cable for £1500 and tbh if I had known it would give such clean quality power and outstanding weighty and articulate bass I would have saved on the Isotek Ascension power cables at double the price. Though very good, the the Ascension is not twice as good.

Audio Bacon did a review of 27 power cables here and The Kimber Palladian PK10 did pretty well
https://audiobacon.net/2019/08/17/27-audiophile-power-cables-reviewed/


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Whilst I agree with OC on source, Dave can do a lot with a simple source. I think cost is always a consideration too. For me the biggest jump in SQ I heard on my system for least cost in the last 3 years (and they are not cheap) was changing 5 fuses over to Synergistic Research Orange Fuses.
> 
> Improving my electrics overall delivered very long lasting results in terms of musical enjoyment. Good clean flowing electrics make even average cost hifi sound much more natural imo. Especially mass orchestral strings. I used to think the lack of smoothness and edge on mass strings was on the recording but it is not.
> 
> ...


I did read that article and I also took the advice of forum posters as yourself.  I bought two different Shunyata Power Cords and I plugged the first one delivered into my integrated.  The second one arrives today and I can either plug it into the Dave or the Lumin U1.  I will go with the source first...


----------



## Ciggavelli (May 26, 2020)

I have a full set up Danacables Source Clarifiers on all my equipment (DAVE, WA33, Innuos Zenith Mk3, Innuos Phoenix, Schiit Jotunheim R), an upgraded 2-prong Audioquest power cord for my M-Scaler (Danacables doesn't make 2 prong power cords), and a Danacables PowerForce for my power conditioner.  I found improvements when adding one at a time.  And with all of them installed, there definitely is cumulative benefit.  I recently just checked what is sounded like with just stock cables, and it definitely sounds worse with no aftermarket power cords.

The Danacable Power Cords are like $500 a piece, which is not an insubstantial amount of money when added together, but the cords are definitely on the "cheap" side of things when it comes to quality power cables.  I'm curious as to what some of those multi-thousand dollar cords sound like, but the price isn't worth the price of admission to me at the moment (I'd rather buy other components for the money)


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 26, 2020)

CRITICALSHOT said:


> I did read that article and I also took the advice of forum posters as yourself.  I bought two different Shunyata Power Cords and I plugged the first one delivered into my integrated.  The second one arrives today and I can either plug it into the Dave or the Lumin U1.  I will go with the source first...


Synergistic Research Blue PC(around 550$), I had bought 6 of them using 3 for 2 promo two years ago.

I had compared it with 2k$ respected power cable( I will not disclose the name).

2k$ one is slightly better than Syn Blue on every respects more open sound and dynamics (about 10-15% better).

But I am not willing to shell out 12k$ for 6 power cables.

Recently I had got 250$ 1578 Melz( 6sn7 variant) in my Line Magnetic 508 amp.

Wow it made 3 times more improvement as the 2k$ power cables with nice tone, dynamics, wide and deep soundstage.

It was game changer.

Law of diminishing apply heavily to power cable..

You do not need to spend more than 500$ on PC but you need to find one which suit your system and taste.


----------



## Triode User

I would say to see how much the total bill for power cords is looking to come out at for the system and then compare that to installing a Sean Jacobs DC4 or DC3 power supply for the Dave. I was stunned at how much it improved Dave. I sit here listening to it and thinking that if Dave 2 came out tomorrow it would have a hard time being better.


----------



## thomaskong78

One more thing is that I have Dave connected using Syn Blue PC to separate isolation transformer (500Watts) and it further improve the sound.

But isolation transformer cost me 150$  only.


----------



## koven

Cannot go wrong w/ Shunyata on power they are pretty tried and true.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 26, 2020)

i also have six of Analysis Plus  power cables that I had chosen after comparing between three sets of cable from different companies loaned by Cable company 7 years ago.

Analysis Plus or Shunyata tend to give warm and full sound while Syn Blue give transparent sound with more details.


i recommend people to try out cables in their system before making final decision.

There is no best cable for everyone.

it will depend on system and personal taste.

I had done cable rolling for more than 30 years.


Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Malcyg

Triode User said:


> It is however consistent with my listening with my previous Innuos Zenith SE with and without the Innuos Phoenix reclocker. The Phoenix made a clearly audible improvement in all the areas you mention and also to me ears gave a clear improvement to the bass depth and detail.



This made me chuckle. I remember reporting a couple of years ago that my Zenith SE into BluDave sounded notably better with a SOtM tX-U and even better again with the addition of the OCX10 Master Clock. I was told by a few on here that there was no benefit adding the peripheral clocking items since Chord DAC’s re-clock the signal anyway and that what I was likely enjoying was distortion.


----------



## Triode User

Malcyg said:


> This made me chuckle. I remember reporting a couple of years ago that my Zenith SE into BluDave sounded notably better with a SOtM tX-U and even better again with the addition of the OCX10 Master Clock. I was told by a few on here that there was no benefit adding the peripheral clocking items since Chord DAC’s re-clock the signal anyway and that what I was likely enjoying was distortion.



To be fair I’m still not convinced that it is the reclocking which is responsible for the improvement or whether it is the better power supply in the Phoenix reclocker.


----------



## Deano1974

Hi Guys 

Ive just purchased a IsoTek Evo Genesis one with an outet power of 100w can someone tell me the power consumption of Dave please 

Thanks

Deano


----------



## HeeBroG

Hi TU,

What is the difference between the SJ DC3 and DC4?

On another note, I have heard some say that the SMPS in DAVE is very good but it's the noise it injects back into the power line that can contaminate the rest of the system.

This is where isolation transformer may help.

If one's system is simply a laptop on batteries with DAVE via headphones, it may not be as much of an issue.

I wonder whether the improvement you are hearing in your speaker/amp setup is related to less "noise injection" back into your powerline.

Perhaps the magnitude of change is not as great with a simpler setup??

Just curious.

G


----------



## onlychild

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Whilst I agree with OC on source, Dave can do a lot with a simple source. I think cost is always a consideration too. For me the biggest jump in SQ I heard on my system for least cost in the last 3 years (and they are not cheap) was changing 5 fuses over to Synergistic Research Orange Fuses.
> 
> Improving my electrics overall delivered very long lasting results in terms of musical enjoyment. Good clean flowing electrics make even average cost hifi sound much more natural imo. Especially mass orchestral strings. I used to think the lack of smoothness and edge on mass strings was on the recording but it is not.
> 
> ...



I'm also a firm believer in power cords for the Dave and even the sever.  I'm running an HFC Pro on my Dave and a Sablon King on my server and could never go back to the stock cords.

If I had a $5K budget, I would probably split it up between a server, power cord, and "other" (USB cable, Fuses, Power conditioner etc) rather than spending all of it on one thing or the other.


----------



## Triode User

You are best to contact SJ direct about the DC3 and DC4. All I know from hearing them is that one is better than the other and costs quite a bit more but I think the extra cost is justified. I will PM his contact details.

Regarding your thought as to whether it is noise put back into the mains from the factory SMPS that is causing an issue, I can say that my first experiment was simply to remove the SMPS from the Dave and put it in an external box connected by an umbilical to the Dave. That gave a clear improvement (softer top end etc) and obviously anything to do with noise back into the mains had not been changed by that experiment. Then, when I was using a SJ DC4 for the Dave I connected the Dave SMPS into the same power strip and turning on the SMPS had no effect on the SQ. Hence I have good reason to think there is no particular issue in that respect.


----------



## HeeBroG

That's a good way to eliminate that conjecture. Thanks for sharing.

G


----------



## hmartin

Triode User said:


> You are best to contact SJ direct about the DC3 and DC4. All I know from hearing them is that one is better than the other and costs quite a bit more but I think the extra cost is justified. I will PM his contact details.
> 
> Regarding your thought as to whether it is noise put back into the mains from the factory SMPS that is causing an issue, I can say that my first experiment was simply to remove the SMPS from the Dave and put it in an external box connected by an umbilical to the Dave. That gave a clear improvement (softer top end etc) and obviously anything to do with noise back into the mains had not been changed by that experiment. Then, when I was using a SJ DC4 for the Dave I connected the Dave SMPS into the same power strip and turning on the SMPS had no effect on the SQ. Hence I have good reason to think there is no particular issue in that respect.


When you connected the smps, how did you load it if you used dc4 to drive the dave?

As a side note Martin Collums reported that powering Dave did negativly effect his system, and stipulated that that was why he was not 100% convinced by dave When using it as a source. I think he used naim electronics and magico s5 mk2 speakers


----------



## Triode User

hmartin said:


> When you connected the smps, how did you load it if you used dc4 to drive the dave?



Another Dave.


----------



## iamoneagain (May 27, 2020)

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Where have you finally settled and why as to *HF Filter:* (ON) or (OFF)?



I finally finished testing the HF filter in the Off setting over the last two weeks. I just left it off the whole time. While this setting was still enjoyable, it’s a little analytical with the Focal Utopia even with the mscaler. And there were a few tracks that were bright.

So when I finally turned the HF filter back on all the warmth and bass textures were back. The music has more weight and is more musical. It may be subtle but it makes all the difference with the Utopia’s. The off setting was enough to make me purchase a Danacable Reference to try and get the musical feeling back. I should be getting that this Friday but I should have just tried changing the setting back instead. I’m sure the cable will improve things even more but may not be necessary.


----------



## Malcyg (May 27, 2020)

Triode User said:


> To be fair I’m still not convinced that it is the reclocking which is responsible for the improvement or whether it is the better power supply in the Phoenix reclocker.



Bit of both I think. Otherwise, we‘ve over spent on our Statement’s. 

Hey, that’s my 500th post - I’m quite surprised at that.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Have any of you Innuos Statement owners noticed a change in the sound since 1.44v Software was installed? I don't see how this is possible but I would swear it has improved clarity.


----------



## STR-1

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Have any of you Innuos Statement owners noticed a change in the sound since 1.44v Software was installed? I don't see how this is possible but I would swear it has improved clarity.


I’m without a couple of my highest performing peripherals at the moment, but yes, there does seem to be a change in the direction of more clarity.  I’ll need time to judge whether it is an all-round improvement.


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Have any of you Innuos Statement owners noticed a change in the sound since 1.44v Software was installed? I don't see how this is possible but I would swear it has improved clarity.



I thought so as well. Did I remember correctly that they had reorganised how the processor handles data with the latest upgrade?


----------



## Malcyg

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Have any of you Innuos Statement owners noticed a change in the sound since 1.44v Software was installed? I don't see how this is possible but I would swear it has improved clarity.



Certainly, I think that they have probably been refining the Squeezelight Player on an ongoing basis. That definitely sounds the best option with Roon to me and it seems to have improved progressively.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

That would make sense because I am convinced there is greater clarity TU. I am particularly drawn to high res files since the software change. Their resolution superiority has become more apparent following the introduction of v1.4.4


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I am simply running my statement controlled via ipeng btw. No Roon.


----------



## Malcyg

*INNUOS RELEASE 1.4.4*
Released 19/05/2020

This release upgrades the innuOS kernel and core libraries, providing Native DSD support to compatible DACs. Experimental mode player integration has now been made further stable.

Note: Due to the size of the kernel and library updates, this update can take up from 5 minutes to 30 minutes to install depending on your Internet speed. Please be patient and do not turn off the unit until the update is complete.

*New Features*

Now supports Native DSD playback on a larger number of compatible DACs, especially those with XMOS chips on their USB Interfaces.
Improved stability of music player integration with Roon.
Upgraded player engine to have higher priority in OS processes, reducing latency.


----------



## Triode User

Roon on Statement here and it is rock solid since 1.4.4 with no skipping etc like it used to do.


----------



## Malcyg

Triode User said:


> Roon on Statement here and it is rock solid since 1.4.4 with no skipping etc like it used to do.



Are you talking about the Squeezelight Player option here Nick? It definitely sounds better to me than the normal Roon mode and I always found it to be pretty stable generally unless I was forcibly skipping back and forward with tracks which did then introduce inconsistencies.


----------



## Triode User

Malcyg said:


> Are you talking about the Squeezelight Player option here Nick? It definitely sounds better to me than the normal Roon mode and I always found it to be pretty stable generally unless I was forcibly skipping back and forward with tracks which did then introduce inconsistencies.



Malc, yes, the Squeezelite Player option. On some days I found it more or less unusable in 1.4.3 due to track skipping but in 1.4.4 it has never missed a beat. It will be interesting to hear the Innuos player option when it eventually comes out but I took out a lifetime sub with Roon so it will have to sound pretty good for me to abandon that.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (May 28, 2020)

Btw I am a big fan of Requiems and I would say my absolute favourite has always been Verdi perhaps due to the opening movement which conveys such a sense of occasion, reverence and emotion that for me it pips Mozart.

Anyway I own very many versions of Verdi's Requiem but to my surprise and delight last week I came across a new rendition by Carlo Maria Giulini Warner Classics in 96/24. I say 'new' but it was originally recorded April 1962. (An EMI recording I believe).

I think the musicians can be heard to lose momentum in a couple of places but it doesn't detract from the atmosphere created for me at least. This performance has all the emotion of Solti's opening movement which I have high regard for. It elevates to the gods. Absolutely beautiful.

EDIT: The version I bought was remastered and released in 2020
https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/verdi-messa-da-requiem-carlo-maria-giulini/rorvi74i26lta


----------



## Malcyg

Triode User said:


> Malc, yes, the Squeezelite Player option. On some days I found it more or less unusable in 1.4.3 due to track skipping but in 1.4.4 it has never missed a beat. It will be interesting to hear the Innuos player option when it eventually comes out but I took out a lifetime sub with Roon so it will have to sound pretty good for me to abandon that.



I’m set for life with Roon as well. I can’t imagine any improvements significant enough to persuade me to switch and, most of all, my wife understands it now and is happy using it. The days of having different apps for different rooms and devices - she can’t go back there! I’m sure I may not be alone on that one.


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Btw I am a big fan of Requiems and I would say my absolute favourite has always been Verdi perhaps due to the opening movement which conveys such a sense of occasion, reverence and emotion that for me it pips Mozart.
> 
> Anyway I own very many versions of Verdi's Requiem but to my surprise and delight last week I came across a new rendition by Carlo Maria Giulini Warner Classics in 96/24. I say 'new' but it was originally recorded April 1962. (An EMI recording I believe).
> 
> I think the musicians can be heard to lose momentum in a couple of places but it doesn't detract from the atmosphere created for me at least. This performance has all the emotion of Solti's opening movement which I have high regard for. It elevates to the gods. Absolutely beautiful.



Do you mean this one? I will try it.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Its the 2020 remastered version TU
https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/verdi-messa-da-requiem-carlo-maria-giulini/rorvi74i26lta


----------



## Triode User

Thanks, yes that is the same link I found on Qobuz. £6.99 to buy the download.


----------



## Christer (May 28, 2020)

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Btw I am a big fan of Requiems and I would say my absolute favourite has always been Verdi perhaps due to the opening movement which conveys such a sense of occasion, reverence and emotion that for me it pips Mozart.
> 
> Anyway I own very many versions of Verdi's Requiem but to my surprise and delight last week I came across a new rendition by Carlo Maria Giulini Warner Classics in 96/24. I say 'new' but it was originally recorded April 1962. (An EMI recording I believe).
> 
> ...


Interesting to see that this old classic HMV/EMI recording of Verdi's Requiem is available as a download.
I have the orginal release two LPs box.
Musically I prefer it over the Solti on Decca. But at least on LP the Guilini tends to break up a bit at the most massive climaxes.
But it is very open and  recorded in a very spacious acoustic.
I wonder where?
My German pressings state P1964,  but  there is no  venue info.It could be from when EMI still used to record the Philharmonia Orchestra in the mighty Royal Albert Hall.
The soundstage is big and a bit cavernous on LPs and solists are not overly close mic'd which I like.
Moreover the solists are about as good as one could find in those days, all top names.
Two of the top stars on the Guilini, Christa Ludwig and Nicolai Ghiarurov also appear on Karajan and the BPO's 1972 recording from DGG.
The Karajan/BPO LP set is the one I play most often.

Many of the  HMV/EMI Karajan Philharmonia recordings from the late 50 and early 60s where recorded in the RAH.
Classic two mics only Blumlein gems.

The Solti Decca VPO recording is from 1968 and also one of the great recordings in my LP collection.
A typical mid to late 60s DECCA production from the Sofiensaal in Vienna with a very warm but a bit too close up multimic'd balance compared to the EMI.
I'd be interested to hear how well the EMI has fared in this transfer.
I don't have any  good modern digital recording of Verdi's Requiem even on disc and no download at all.
I do have a Ricardo  Muti CSO on SACD but both SQ wise and musically it does not compare to the older recordings imho.
If the download of the Guilini handles the climaxes better than my LPs I may go for it too.
Cheers CC


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Just heard from Nuno at Innuos. Confirmed SQ improvements.

".......we did do improvements in the kernel and the engine.

We will keep working on improving sound quality on both the software and hardware side."


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Christer I agree the Karajan performance is class and as a complete performance it was my favourite until I purchased this Giulini version (Solti particularly hit the mark in laying the mood in the opening movement but Karajan is more complete as a whole performance imo). 

Just listened to the 'Dies irae' and I honestly have not heard any breakup in SQ (if that's what you meant). Certain musicians lose momentum without a doubt but for me it does not detract. Also I agree about the preference for large auditorium acoustic. It sits very well and the positional choice for miking was very well chosen imo.

Overall I think whoever did the 2020 remaster has done an impressive job. I see Parlophone Records Ltd were responsible for this remaster so it may have been an Abbey Road remaster like the 2014 remaster of Callas - Carmen 1964 which is as transparent a classical mastering job as I have ever heard.


----------



## hmartin

Triode User said:


> Do you mean this one? I will try it.


Yet another album only available in MQA on tidal, hope Qobuz opens in Sweden soon.....


----------



## PhenixS1970

Hi All, my DAVE has some dust particles on the display inside.  Any easy fix for that?


----------



## F208Frank

PhenixS1970 said:


> Hi All, my DAVE has some dust particles on the display inside.  Any easy fix for that?


Mine has a single strand of dust and is relatively new inside the display also. I found this quite shocking. Looking forward to suggestions as well.


----------



## Triode User

F208Frank said:


> Mine has a single strand of dust and is relatively new inside the display also. I found this quite shocking. Looking forward to suggestions as well.



Simply remove the glass by undoing the bolts. Clean using something similar to cleaning camera lenses, ie lint free.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Triode User said:


> Simply remove the glass by undoing the bolts. Clean using something similar to cleaning camera lenses, ie lint free.


Do the bolts have nuts?


----------



## Triode User

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Do the bolts have nuts?



No, they screw into the casing so there is nothing to drop off or get lost if that is what you are thnking. Also no washers. All you need is an allen key. They will not be too tight to loosen and tightish is tight enough when doing them up again!


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Triode User said:


> No, they screw into the casing so there is nothing to drop off or get lost if that is what you are thnking. Also no washers. All you need is an allen key. They will not be too tight to loosen and tightish is tight enough when doing them up again!


Not what I was thinking! Noooo nutz...


----------



## Triode User

Noooooo nutz at all!


----------



## austinpop

Triode User said:


> To be fair I’m still not convinced that it is the reclocking which is responsible for the improvement or whether it is the better power supply in the Phoenix reclocker.



Nick (and others),

I addressed this question (sensitivity to clock quality, holding PSU constant), and many others, in my recent review of the PhoenixUSB at https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/review-innuos-phoenixusb-reclocker-r906/


----------



## STR-1

austinpop said:


> Nick (and others),
> 
> I addressed this question (sensitivity to clock quality, holding PSU constant), and many others, in my recent review of the PhoenixUSB at https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/review-innuos-phoenixusb-reclocker-r906/


Another great review, Rajiv.  So Spaghetti wins that round, but strong case for Phoenix.  An interesting second round for another day (for those with a clean slate) would be spaghetti vs Statement (1.4.4) with upgraded power umbilicals.


----------



## Triode User

austinpop said:


> Nick (and others),
> 
> I addressed this question (sensitivity to clock quality, holding PSU constant), and many others, in my recent review of the PhoenixUSB at https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/review-innuos-phoenixusb-reclocker-r906/



Rajiv, thanks for that link and review. I was hugely impressed by the Phoenix. I will read your review a couple of times as there is a fair amount in that.


----------



## GreenBow

I don't understand how reclockers could improve DACs like Chord which clock the samples.


----------



## GryphonGuy

GreenBow said:


> I don't understand how reclockers could improve DACs like Chord which clock the samples.



I know, right? Amazing that cleaning up the signal from electrical noise, re-forming the data wave and better timing it makes such a difference. However some solutions are just priced ridiculously high for what they do. Law of diminishing returns is at play by manufacturers saying our product is only marginally slightly better so we'll charge triple the next best solution in our market segment. And unfortunately for my wallet, I have paid some of those manufacturers those ridiculous prices and have not regretted it.

Regards
GG


----------



## gnomen

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Anyway I own very many versions of Verdi's Requiem but to my surprise and delight last week I came across a new rendition by Carlo Maria Giulini Warner Classics in 96/24. I say 'new' but it was originally recorded April 1962. (An EMI recording I believe).
> 
> I think the musicians can be heard to lose momentum in a couple of places but it doesn't detract from the atmosphere created for me at least. This performance has all the emotion of Solti's opening movement which I have high regard for. It elevates to the gods. Absolutely beautiful.
> 
> ...


Yes.  Big shout out for Giulini.  His star was fading when I started buying classical music and I have little by him.  Last year I purchased his version of Beethoven's _Missa Solemnis _after it was the recommedation on BBC's Record Review.   Giulini's version beat out very strong contention from mid-century maestros like Karajan to modern interpreters like Gardiner and Harnoncourt.  I own six or seven versions of the _Missa_ and agree his version is the best.

I did notice there is some highly impressive competition in the _Requiem _too_.  _Seems like everyone of note in the last 70 years has recorded their version, with stellar casts. Would you recommend the Giulini as the starting point for newcomers to this work ... or another among the many versions you own?


----------



## gnomen (Jun 1, 2020)

GryphonGuy said:


> Amazing that cleaning up the signal from electrical noise, re-forming the data wave and better timing it makes such a difference.


It is amazing but true.  I recently auditioned a dCS Network Bridge in front of my MScaler/TT2.  The improvement was immediate and obvious.  To my ears it sounds like some (most?) of the improvement is related to the reclocking done by the dCS unit.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

gnomen
Its hard to choose another to recommend as a starter now that I have heard Verdi Requiem by Giulini!  

What may be worthwhile though is to start where I started. 

I fell in love with this piece when I heard the opening bars of the first movement (Solti 1967). The subtle first murmurings of the choir created a sense of a deeply moving spectacle. When I listen to a requiem I try to imagine I am standing in the church whilst the coffin of the said composer is carried in. This great man has died and I am there to show my respect. This must be hugely moving in the opening movement I think to be a stand-out requiem. It sets the scene after all. I think Solti nailed that opening movement and from there I was smitten by this Requiem. After that I tried many others and came to conclude that Karajan (as so often is the case) created a more consistent and complete rendition of the whole but as I said recently Giulini provided me with yet more emotion and an acoustic which is easier to feel engaged in the event I think. 

Hope this helps


----------



## Amberlamps

F208Frank said:


> Mine has a single strand of dust and is relatively new inside the display also. I found this quite shocking. Looking forward to suggestions as well.



Take the glass off and use a tin of air to blow away any dust or hair particles, also avoid touching the glass as you may get finger prints on it and that will annoy you more than a dust particle.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I've recently changed my USB cable feeding the M Scaler/Dave combo. Never ceases to amaze me how a USB cable can change the sound of a system.
> 
> I previously used the Danacable TruStream USB. What the new FTA Callisto 0.8 mtr USB brings to my system is the following:
> Improved Timbre/Tone, More believable and natural dynamics, more weight in the lower mids, more weight in the lower bass (almost like I have added a very subtle subwoofer to the mix), improved flow and musicality, much more natural high's (less edgy particularly when using Synergistic Research HFT's on my speakers), Less shouty sound, more organic and natural presentation ................ I guess more like real music.


I got my Final Touch Audio Callisto USB earlier today and I find your impressions spot on.


----------



## koven

CRITICALSHOT said:


> I got my Final Touch Audio Callisto USB earlier today and I find your impressions spot on.



I take it you're liking FTA more than Sablon?


----------



## muski

https://open.qobuz.com/track/91194659

Tripped over this on Qobuz and was blown away by how it great it sounds on M Scaler + DAVE. It's François Couperin's Les Barricades Mystérieuses (The Mysterious Barricades) arranged for harpsichord and archlute (yeah, had to google that). A remarkable performance and great audio engineering.

Amazing to think this was composed for harpsichord in 1717—it has the modern sensibility of Fleetwood Mac or Wyndham Hill.

Or on YouTube in lower res: 

The inside-baroque joke is that it's a Rondeau played by Rondeau 

Cheers,
muski


----------



## GreenBow (Jun 3, 2020)

GryphonGuy said:


> I know, right? Amazing that cleaning up the signal from electrical noise, re-forming the data wave and better timing it makes such a difference. However some solutions are just priced ridiculously high for what they do. Law of diminishing returns is at play by manufacturers saying our product is only marginally slightly better so we'll charge triple the next best solution in our market segment. And unfortunately for my wallet, I have paid some of those manufacturers those ridiculous prices and have not regretted it.
> 
> Regards
> GG



Well I was more saying, I find it hard to believe that re-clockers could affect Chord DACs.

However I am not disputing you or others because you have the hardware and I do not. Therefor I can't possibly know.


Rob Watts position is that Chord DACs re-clock incoming signals, making them immune to jitter. Apparently the clock Chord they use is very finely timed, so should provide excellent results. … The only other input that I have on this subject however is the example of the DCS DACs. The DCS Rossini is generally viewed with the DCS Master Clock. That Master Clock is an entire unit on its own. Suggesting that a truly accurate clock, is not a small matter, unless they used a full size case for easy stacking. Possibly though, putting the clocks in Chord DACs under scrutiny. Chord clocks obviously do an excellent job though, as the proof is in the pudding.

Also I think that the Rossini will have its own clock, and the Master Clock is an add-on. (Unless they are sold together.) I noticed on the back of the Bartok, there is a clock input. Therefore suggesting that all their DACs are upgradable with a better clock.

Someone else suggested a streamer to me also, which is clock accurate, as well as having good noise suppression. The Stack Audio Link. (Noise is obviously an aspect to be dealt with.) However the effect of that streamer was in review said to have outstanding results on attached DACs. (See below link and quote for details.) Bear in mind that the Stack Audio Link, will only have a physically small clock (like Chord's), because the whole unit is not big.

https://www.hifiplus.com/articles/exclusive-stack-audio-link-usb-streaming-bridge/

Quote:
*There was something so alluring about the Stack Audio Link/ Dragonfly Cobalt combination it kind of shatters your perspective of how much you need to spend to best it in open combat. I’d happily put this little duo up against a good £2,000-£3,000 DAC and/or streamer combination.*


----------



## Rob Watts

You mean degraded by adding an external clock...


----------



## edwardsean

Any users using HQPlayer with Audiowise SRC-DX? Would you share your experience or point me to any links on the thread. I searched for them but couldn't find any. 

Thanks!


----------



## endre83

everyone speaks about the headphone output of thje DAVE, is it comparable with Hugo 2 as amplifier power?


----------



## JaZZ (Jun 4, 2020)

endre83 said:


> everyone speaks about the headphone output of thje DAVE, is it comparable with Hugo 2 as amplifier power?




The official specs:

*Hugo₂*....................... ............*DAVE*
0094 mW  at 300 Ω..........0154 mW  at 300 Ω
0740 mW  at 033 Ω..........1400 mW  at 033 Ω
1050 mW  at 008 Ω..... ....2900 mW at 008 Ω (estimated)


----------



## 6aardvark9

Anyone felt tempted to take the warranty busting plunge with this Sean Jacobs power supply???
http://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/home/power-supplies/dc4-power-supply


----------



## AndrewOld

6aardvark9 said:


> Anyone felt tempted to take the warranty busting plunge with this Sean Jacobs power supply???
> http://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/home/power-supplies/dc4-power-supply


Nope! Don’t get hustled.


----------



## endre83

JaZZ said:


> The official specs:
> 
> *Hugo₂*....................... ............*DAVE*
> 0094 mW  at 300 Ω..........0154 mW  at 300 Ω
> ...


OK - so for 300 ohm headphones like the ZMF dynamics for example the DAVE would be sufficiant as I understand. Do you guys but USB reclockers like the Phoenix also before the Mscaler - DAVE?


----------



## JaZZ

I never felt the need for a reclocker, but have bought Wave Storm Cables after the M Scaler/RFI talk on Head-Fi. They turned out to be a serious upgrade. However, I could perfectly live with the stock cables the two years before, so they're just an option, not a necessity.


----------



## iamoneagain

edwardsean said:


> Any users using HQPlayer with Audiowise SRC-DX? Would you share your experience or point me to any links on the thread. I searched for them but couldn't find any.
> 
> Thanks!



I only did a comparison of HQPlayer against Dave with and without mscaler. I do not have the SRC-DX.

To sum up if preferred the Dave even without the mscaler to HQPlayer. I thought Dave had a better warmer tone. When compared with mscaler, the Dave has much better texture compared to HQPlayer.  How much the SRC-DX can improve HQPlayer, I don’t know.


----------



## 6aardvark9

JaZZ said:


> I never felt the need for a reclocker, but have bought Wave Storm Cables after the M Scaler/RFI talk on Head-Fi. They turned out to be a serious upgrade. However, I could perfectly live with the stock cables the two years before, so they're just an option, not a necessity.



I did, it made a big difference to my ears... I guess it will be streaming source dependent, but everything is definitely not 'sorted out' by Dave's internal clock


----------



## Sonic77 (Jun 4, 2020)

Amberlamps said:


> Take the glass off and use a tin of air to blow away any dust or hair particles, also avoid touching the glass as you may get finger prints on it and that will annoy you more than a dust particle.


Well I did that, and it was as if a veil was lifted from the glass.


----------



## TheAttorney

6aardvark9 said:


> Anyone felt tempted to take the warranty busting plunge with this Sean Jacobs power supply???
> http://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/home/power-supplies/dc4-power-supply


The Search function is your friend - there were posts about this only a week or so ago in this thread


----------



## TheAttorney (Jun 5, 2020)

[double post]


----------



## 6aardvark9

TheAttorney said:


> The Search function is your friend - there were posts about this only a week or so ago in this thread



Yep, I found them after I posted... the search function isn't my friend yet


----------



## TheAttorney

6aardvark9 said:


> Yep, I found them after I posted... the search function isn't my friend yet



I think you'll find, with a bit of practice, that the Search function on this site actually works rather well  

To labour my point in a more general sense for everyone (because it bugs me): The HMS and DAVE threads are very, very long. Really, really long. There are more posts here than there are particles in the universe (well, almost). There are more posts here than there are taps in Rob's m-scaler (well, almost). Sadly, many of the posts are not very useful in retrospect, but that's forum life, so we have to put up with it.

But it doesn't help when, say, someone posts something like "hey what do you all think of DAVE's HF filter?" when that has been asked and answered a hundred times before. The people who have answered before don't really want to start from the beginning, so you may not get a great response. Much better to do a bit of searching first to enable you to raise a more constructive point about the HF filter that moves the conversation forwards.


----------



## edwardsean (Jun 5, 2020)

Hi. I'm getting a DAVE in next week sometime. I'm looking for a best value in a power cable upgrade around $500. I prefer a resolving, airy, and transparent sound rather than warm and thick, but still smooth and liquid as I can find in my price range.

I was looking at the Vovox Excelsus (previously Textura) based on Jay Luong's power cable shootout on Audio Bacon. However, the more I look into that cable I think it may be too warm and not best suited for digital components.

I'm hoping to find a cable like it though that punches well above its price point.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

Thanks!


----------



## 6aardvark9

edwardsean said:


> Hi. I'm getting a DAVE in next week sometime. I'm looking for the best value in a power cable upgrade around $500. I prefer a resolving, airy, and transparent sound rather than warm and thick, but still smooth as liquid as I can find in my price range.
> 
> I was looking at the Vovos Excelsus (previously Textura) based on Jay Luong's power cable shootout on Audio Bacon. However, the more I look into that cable I think it may be too warm and not best suited for digital components.
> 
> ...



I made mine using … https://www.mcru.co.uk/product/nanotec-power-strada-309-mains-cable/ (available in the US via Jaguar Audio Designs)
Select the connectors of your choice and you'll have something pretty good (in my opinion)


----------



## thomaskong78

edwardsean said:


> Hi. I'm getting a DAVE in next week sometime. I'm looking for a best value in a power cable upgrade around $500. I prefer a resolving, airy, and transparent sound rather than warm and thick, but still smooth and liquid as I can find in my price range.
> 
> I was looking at the Vovox Excelsus (previously Textura) based on Jay Luong's power cable shootout on Audio Bacon. However, the more I look into that cable I think it may be too warm and not best suited for digital components.
> 
> ...


Synergistic Blue power cable will fit your taste.

I have six of them.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/l...-the-art-power-cord-for-a-down-to-e-ac-cables

They also have 30 day's return policy.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

edwardsean said:


> Hi. I'm getting a DAVE in next week sometime. I'm looking for a best value in a power cable upgrade around $500. I prefer a resolving, airy, and transparent sound rather than warm and thick, but still smooth and liquid as I can find in my price range.
> 
> I was looking at the Vovox Excelsus (previously Textura) based on Jay Luong's power cable shootout on Audio Bacon. However, the more I look into that cable I think it may be too warm and not best suited for digital components.
> 
> ...


I would check on the used market.  I was not sure if power cables made a difference, so I started with Silnote $99.00 Power Cables. After I heard a marked difference; I got three different models of Shunyata Power Cables and am more than happy.


----------



## edwardsean

CRITICALSHOT said:


> I would check on the used market.  I was not sure if power cables made a difference, so I started with Silnote $99.00 Power Cables. After I heard a marked difference; I got three different models of Shunyata Power Cables and am more than happy.



Thanks, Shunyata has established quite a name in the power cable industry. However, I heard that they are more on the warm, romantic side. Is that right? I also avoid anything that is too alert and edgy, but I'm looking for high resolution and crystalline highs along with smoothness.


----------



## MacedonianHero

endre83 said:


> OK - so for 300 ohm headphones like the ZMF dynamics for example the DAVE would be sufficiant as I understand. Do you guys but USB reclockers like the Phoenix also before the Mscaler - DAVE?



It's not about impedance so much as it's more about sensitivity (dB per mW) and both can drive 300 ohm headphones without issue.


----------



## koven

edwardsean said:


> However, I heard that they are more on the warm, romantic side. Is that right?



I heard the same, so I bought mine flowers and dinner first before plugging it in...


----------



## CRITICALSHOT (Jun 5, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> Thanks, Shunyata has established quite a name in the power cable industry. However, I heard that they are more on the warm, romantic side. Is that right? I also avoid anything that is too alert and edgy, but I'm looking for high resolution and crystalline highs along with smoothness.


http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/revequip/shunyata_python_helix_followup.htm

This one can be had well under your budget and is I believe the one they may suit your needs.  With your attitude, I now know why they say romance is dead!

You just want to get straight down to business....


----------



## edwardsean (Jun 5, 2020)

CRITICALSHOT said:


> http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/revequip/shunyata_python_helix_followup.htm
> 
> This one can be had well under your budget and is I believe the one they may suit your needs.  With your attitude, I now know why they say romance is dead!
> 
> You just want to get straight down to business....



Yeah, that would work just fine budget wise, but back down to business.

I don't mind buying the Shunyata roses and chocolates. But, I don't want it to just spout poetry at me in response. I'd like to discuss theorems of physics and math alongside reading Rilke and Oscar Wilde together.

Boy, I think we may all have been in Covid isolation too long.

At any rate, I know Shunyata cables are well regarded, and Music Direct has a sale on them right now. But I'm trying to get a sense of whether their sonic signature will suit my taste for something smooth but clear and resolving.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT (Jun 5, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> Yeah, that would work just fine budget wise, but back down to business.
> 
> I don't mind buying the Shunyata roses and chocolates. But, I don't want it to just spout poetry at me in response. I'd like to discuss theorems of physics and math alongside reading Rilke and Oscar Wilde together.
> 
> ...


Did you read the review? I read the review you mentioned and I know the sound sig of the Shunyata Cable you are referring to.  They are two different cables with different sound signatures.  The one I recommended is clear and resolving.


----------



## edwardsean

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Did you read the review? I read the review you mentioned and I know the sound sig of the Shunyata Cable you are referring to.  They are two different cables with different sound signatures.  The one I recommended is clear and resolving.



So, I read the review, and the cable sounds promising. But, that review was from 2006. The Python Helix Vx is no longer in production is it? So, I would be looking for it somewhere in the used market? I don't mind that, but I rather not wait for one to turn up. 

Music Direct has the current Delta NR in my price range. Would you happen to know its sound?


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

edwardsean said:


> So, I read the review, and the cable sounds promising. But, that review was from 2006. The Python Helix Vx is no longer in production is it? So, I would be looking for it somewhere in the used market? I don't mind that, but I rather not wait for one to turn up.
> 
> Music Direct has the current Delta NR in my price range. Would you happen to know its sound?


You would need the Alpha and not the VX.  The VX is for CD Players and Transports.  It is old and not in production and can be had used for $350-$375.  I don't know how that one sounds.  Go to AudiogoN and search by Cable->AC Cables and just read the reviews of the ones in your price range.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

edwardsean said:


> So, I read the review, and the cable sounds promising. But, that review was from 2006. The Python Helix Vx is no longer in production is it? So, I would be looking for it somewhere in the used market? I don't mind that, but I rather not wait for one to turn up.
> 
> Music Direct has the current Delta NR in my price range. Would you happen to know its sound?


https://www.musicdirect.com/cables/shunyata-zitron-alpha-digital-power-cable

I use the above cable with the Dave, I got it much cheaper though.  I use the Shunyata Python Helix Alpha on my Lumin U1.


----------



## STR-1

CRITICALSHOT said:


> https://www.musicdirect.com/cables/shunyata-zitron-alpha-digital-power-cable
> 
> I use the above cable with the Dave, I got it much cheaper though.  I use the Shunyata Python Helix Alpha on my Lumin U1.


It was in the final days in the life of the Shunyata Alpha Analogue/Digital/HC range that I first looked at trying upgrade cables with my DAVE.  At the time people who tried these cables seemed mostly to like the HC cable with the DAVE, and that was the one I bought at ex-demo price not having heard either the analogue or the digital cables.   Today, my Alpha HC has been demoted to secondary duties (like powering my SR4T power supply), and DAVE is now powered by a Shunyata Alpha NR.  As lockdown begins to ease I am looking forward to very soon trying an Reference NR v2 from the recently launched 2020 range.  Certainly in my system, DAVE does seem to benefit from a little filtering, the Alpha NR is plugged into a Shunyata Venom UK6 distribution block.


----------



## Glossator

STR-1 said:


> It was in the final days in the life of the Shunyata Alpha Analogue/Digital/HC range that I first looked at trying upgrade cables with my DAVE.  At the time people who tried these cables seemed mostly to like the HC cable with the DAVE, and that was the one I bought at ex-demo price not having heard either the analogue or the digital cables.   Today, my Alpha HC has been demoted to secondary duties (like powering my SR4T power supply), and DAVE is now powered by a Shunyata Alpha NR.  As lockdown begins to ease I am looking forward to very soon trying an Reference NR v2 from the recently launched 2020 range.  Certainly in my system, DAVE does seem to benefit from a little filtering, the Alpha NR is plugged into a Shunyata Venom UK6 distribution block.


Agree - DAVE seems to like Shunyata Alpha NR and  Venon UK6.


----------



## muski

edwardsean said:


> Hi. I'm getting a DAVE in next week sometime. I'm looking for a best value in a power cable upgrade around $500. I prefer a resolving, airy, and transparent sound rather than warm and thick, but still smooth and liquid as I can find in my price range.
> 
> I was looking at the Vovox Excelsus (previously Textura) based on Jay Luong's power cable shootout on Audio Bacon. However, the more I look into that cable I think it may be too warm and not best suited for digital components.
> 
> ...


Dan from Audiowise put me onto an interesting “alternative” that I really like:

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Schaffner/IF13-US3-H05-3100-WF-200?qs=gTYE2QTfZfQlQ%2BHLhXJiSA==

Filtered, shielded and $37. I have three of them now.

cheers
Muski


----------



## edwardsean

muski said:


> Dan from Audiowise put me onto an interesting “alternative” that I really like:
> 
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Schaffner/IF13-US3-H05-3100-WF-200?qs=gTYE2QTfZfQlQ%2BHLhXJiSA==
> 
> ...



Muski, are you saying that this $37 cable competes with the cables that have been recommended that go for 10X to 50X the price?

I wouldn't entertain this except that you mention Dan's recommendation, and that I see you're using his Opto -DX system.

So, you're using some pretty pricey, state of the art, isolation to feed the digital to your DAVE, and a $37 Mouser cable to feed it power. 

Please share more. That's a sincere request. I've been on a deep dive into the world of power cables and dizzy from it. If I can toss out $37 to try out a different solution that makes sense, I'd be grateful!


----------



## edwardsean (Jun 7, 2020)

@muski  what's the actual length of the cable you linked. Mouser has it 200 meters, which is a "little" more than I need. Of course that would come in handy if I wanted to steal power from the mains of the house next door.

Just kidding, I'm not sure where they're getting that number, but I can't seem to find the correct one.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Just for a bit of fun, what would be the new product you would most covet if released by Chord Electronics?

For me top 3: 
1) Active Loudspeakers with Dave DAC inside and DSP room Frequency adjustment for perfect flat in room frequency response. (Like Dutch & Dutch 8c)
2) Dave MkII
3) Davina


----------



## edwardsean

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Just for a bit of fun, what would be the new product you would most covet if released by Chord Electronics?
> 
> For me top 3:
> 1) Active Loudspeakers with Dave DAC inside and DSP room Frequency adjustment for perfect flat in room frequency response. (Like Dutch & Dutch 8c)
> ...



4) Chord DAP


----------



## STR-1

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Just for a bit of fun, what would be the new product you would most covet if released by Chord Electronics?
> 
> For me top 3:
> 1) Active Loudspeakers with Dave DAC inside and DSP room Frequency adjustment for perfect flat in room frequency response. (Like Dutch & Dutch 8c)
> ...


Being a headphone user, active loudspeakers would be of no use to me, and the benefits of Davina to us end-users are probably too far off to get excited about.  

Not a strong desire, but a DAVE Mkll with more output power would be nice, if only so I could then contemplate headphones like the Abyss and Susvara without needing an external amp.

A 2m Tap M Scaler has been speculated on for a while now, and I suspect is quite doable with currently available components (incl. fpga), but I can’t help feeling that diminishing returns would really set in and that such a product would not be quite the significant step up that the Blu 2/M Scaler was.

I think I would be most interested In further developments at the other end of the Chord range.  A more advanced Mojo (and more stable Poly) would be very welcome.


----------



## muski

A real Chord DAP with a slick & delightful UI and offline Qobuz support (I can dream, right?)


----------



## edwardsean

Well, I just went on a tear reading everything I could find on the Denafrips Terminator. There are a few users on the Terminator thread that compare it to the DAVE. As can be expected, they like the Terminator. One user borrowed a friend's DAVE for a week, and ended up keeping it in the closet after A/Bing it against the Denafrips. 

Both are top tier DACs, but I'm having trouble getting a fix on the sonic differences. What is clear is that the Terminator has the more dense presentation. That makes sense to me, esp. as "thinness" can be a characteristic weakness of the DAVE, and the Terminator has those massive, back breaking, toroidal transformers. 

What has me a bit confused, and frankly unnerved, is that I would then expect the DAVE to counter with greater transparency, clarity, and resolution. However, Jay Luong, over at Audiobacon believes that this is where the Terminator excels as well. Comparing the two specifically he writes,

"The Terminator does so more with spatial clarity, vividness, and air. You hear deeper into the trinkets, layers, and grooves of the sound. From the leading edges of a violin, drum skin flex, and finger movement on a trumpet. All are placed in plain view with uncanny control and speed. It just sounds more tonally “elegant” and agile.
The DAVE takes a more naturalistic approach. Its greatest strengths are timbre and coherence...."

At the end, he actually prefers the DAVE for its timbral accuracy. Yet, the way he describes the Terminator's superiority is what I'm accustomed to hearing as one of DAVE's signature strengths. 

There are not a lot of posts comparing these units here. Has anyone had time with both, especially in the context of headphone listening?


----------



## Mediahound (Jun 7, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> At the end, he actually prefers the DAVE for its timbral accuracy. Yet, the way he describes the Terminator's superiority is what I'm accustomed to hearing as one of DAVE's signature strengths.?



I'm pretty sure that site is sponsored by Denafrips so the 'reviewer's' hands were probably tied and he had to give it a positive review. You really have to be careful with most of the so-called review sites in this respect.


----------



## edwardsean

Mediahound said:


> I'm pretty sure that site is sponsored by Denafrips so the 'reviewer's' hands were probably tied and he had to give it a positive review. You really have to be careful with most of the so-called review sites in this respect.



Could I ask how you know that? I would think if that were the case it would be disclosed somewhere in the review as standard practice for credible review sites, which include Audio Bacon.

Also, Jay's impressions of the Terminator accord with others like Steve Guttenberg, Srajan Ebaen over at 6Moons, Darko, and many others. 

I'm just surprised because he made these comments specifically in comparison to DAVE. I really wish Darko had directly compared the Denafrips to his personal DAVE when he had it in home. He did so with the Bartok, but I think he was trying to keep roughly within price classes and the Terminator doesn't have a headphone amp.


----------



## Mediahound (Jun 7, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> Could I ask how you know that? I would think if that were the case it would be disclosed somewhere in the review as standard practice for credible review sites, which include Audio Bacon.
> 
> Also, Jay's impressions of the Terminator accord with others like Steve Guttenberg, Srajan Ebaen over at 6Moons, Darko, and many others.
> 
> I'm just surprised because he made these comments specifically in comparison to DAVE. I really wish Darko had directly compared the Denafrips to his personal DAVE when he had it in home. He did so with the Bartok, but I think he was trying to keep roughly within price classes and the Terminator doesn't have a headphone amp.



That's the problem, most sites like that are very sneakily non-transparent about sponsors.

They definitely accept sponsors though:



> I’ve realized – advertising is just the nature of the beast. As such, we're now* open to sponsored advertisements*. If you’re interested, please email xxxx for access to our rate card


 from: their about page.

Darko is also sponsored reviews and videos.


----------



## edwardsean

Mediahound said:


> That's the problem, most sites like that are very sneakily non-transparent about sponsors.
> They definitely accept sponsors though:
> from: their about page.
> Darko is also all sponsored reviews and videos. He basically doesn't do a review or video unless the manufacturer pays.



Right, but if they're "non-transparent," you have no idea whether Denafrips is a sponsor or not. I appreciate what you're saying. I do. There are always things going on behind the scenes. However, that quote does go on to. say, "As many of our readers have realized – we’re ruthlessly transparent and thorough with our reviews. These sponsorships will not change that."

That may truly just be words, but in all fairness, over time you do get a sense of whether a reviewer is honest or "venal," level headed or eccentric, slipshod or thorough. I think Jay's the former in each case.

But, my interest is not in Audiobacon or speculation. I'm really hoping that some people have had a chance to audition both units firsthand.


----------



## llamaluv

edwardsean said:


> Well, I just went on a tear reading everything I could find on the Denafrips Terminator. There are a few users on the Terminator thread that compare it to the DAVE. As can be expected, they like the Terminator. One user borrowed a friend's DAVE for a week, and ended up keeping it in the closet after A/Bing it against the Denafrips.
> 
> Both are top tier DACs, but I'm having trouble getting a fix on the sonic differences. What is clear is that the Terminator has the more dense presentation. That makes sense to me, esp. as "thinness" can be a characteristic weakness of the DAVE, and the Terminator has those massive, back breaking, toroidal transformers.
> 
> ...



A discussion on questions of sound quality? In the DAVE thread?!  Heh.

I swapped my DAVE for my friend's Terminator for a period of three weeks, for fun. For the first two days, I liked it a lot and found it to be an engaging listen. Just by virtue of sounding _different_, it sounded interesting. It creates the impression of being big and dynamic-sounding. However, I grew bored of it surprisingly quickly without trying to, and those three weeks ended up being the period where I listened to my system the least over the past 2 or so years (!). 

The Terminator renders soundstage a little differently I felt, which was interesting at first. It sounded big and deep, but the imaging was more smeary, which over time I think I didn't like. The main thing that consciously started getting to me though is the Terminator's treble, which sounds impressive on first blush (again, in part just for sounding different), but I think sounded too foregrounded, smoothed over, and having too much of its own character. I read someone describe it as "glassy", which is a good word for it.

However to be fair, I put a lot of effort into optimizing what's in front of my DAVE (MScalar, Opto-DX, etc), whereas I only fed the Terminator with USB coming out of my Macbook and an Audioquest Cinnamon cable. So I expect I didn't hear it at its best.


----------



## edwardsean (Jun 8, 2020)

llamaluv said:


> A discussion on questions of sound quality? In the DAVE thread?!  Heh.
> 
> I swapped my DAVE for my friend's Terminator for a period of three weeks, for fun. For the first two days, I liked it a lot and found it to be an engaging listen. Just by virtue of sounding _different_, it sounded interesting. It creates the impression of being big and dynamic-sounding. However, I grew bored of it surprisingly quickly without trying to, and those three weeks ended up being the period where I listened to my system the least over the past 2 or so years (!).
> 
> ...



Thanks for replying. It really helps to hear a firsthand account. I imagine you're right though, when you say that you didn't get Terminator at its best. If you put something like an Audiobyte Hydra Z so you could go USB to I2S and upscaled the Terminator using the latest DSP board, you'd have a better comparison. I would suspect those things would take care of both the "glassy" high end and the smeared imaging.

The DAVE might still very well be more to your liking. However, this would set the two on more even ground.

I'm curious what came after the DACs? Was it speakers or amp+phones?

Also, as far as soundstage dimensions, it seems like the Terminator was bigger with more depth, even when compared with DAVE+Mscaler?


----------



## llamaluv

edwardsean said:


> I'm curious what came after the DACs? Was it speakers or amp+phones?
> 
> Also, as far as soundstage dimensions, it seems like the Terminator was bigger with more depth, even when compared with DAVE+Mscaler?



Headphones, for me. I listened to the Terminator with the same amps and headphones I usually use. My impression of the Terminator's soundstage and imaging compared to the DAVE was a little like listening to tubes versus solid state, actually. I didn't listen to them side-by-side though, but the Terminator might have been bigger and deeper; definitely seemed at least equal.

Also I should mention the Terminator had the DSP board upgrade from late last year (has there been another since then?). And I alternated frequently between NOS mode and HQ Player (I liked the latter a bit more).


----------



## muski

edwardsean said:


> @muski  what's the actual length of the cable you linked. Mouser has it 200 meters, which is a "little" more than I need. Of course that would come in handy if I wanted to steal power from the mains of the house next door.
> 
> Just kidding, I'm not sure where they're getting that number, but I can't seem to find the correct one.


It’s 200cm or ~6ft


----------



## edwardsean

llamaluv said:


> Headphones, for me. I listened to the Terminator with the same amps and headphones I usually use. My impression of the Terminator's soundstage and imaging compared to the DAVE was a little like listening to tubes versus solid state, actually. I didn't listen to them side-by-side though, but the Terminator might have been bigger and deeper; definitely seemed at least equal.
> 
> Also I should mention the Terminator had the DSP board upgrade from late last year (has there been another since then?). And I alternated frequently between NOS mode and HQ Player (I liked the latter a bit more).



Okay, with the DSP board upgrade, and HQP, that's a pretty good comparison then!

"Tubes v. solid state" is the summary conclusion I'm quickly coming to. Jay Luoung said both DACs give you the sense of "you are there,", but in a different way. It seems to me then that the Terminator renders more solid images in more airy space giving a greater "feel" of reality like tubes. The DAVE then presents a more timbrally complete image in more accurate space giving a greater "sense" of reality like solid state. If–that makes sense.


----------



## edwardsean

muski said:


> It’s 200cm or ~6ft



Thanks! The website omitted the "c" so it reads 200m! Ferrite sheathing or no, that length is going to pick up some noise.


----------



## Triode User

llamaluv said:


> A discussion on questions of sound quality? In the DAVE thread?!  Heh.
> 
> I swapped my DAVE for my friend's Terminator for a period of three weeks, for fun. For the first two days, I liked it a lot and found it to be an engaging listen. Just by virtue of sounding _different_, it sounded interesting. It creates the impression of being big and dynamic-sounding. However, I grew bored of it surprisingly quickly without trying to, and those three weeks ended up being the period where I listened to my system the least over the past 2 or so years (!).
> 
> ...



I borrowed a friends Denafrips Ares 2. Not a Terminator but still useful to get the idea of the house sound. I am afraid this didn’t last two hours in my system never mind two weeks. It had a thumpy exaggerated bass with no detail to it. The top end was of the initially impressive type of sound but which very quickly became fatiguing. The mid range missed out on subtle detail of instruments and notes that had somehow disappeared from the track I was playing. Sure this was all compared to what I consider to be a well sorted Dave/Mscaler but when I connect my Qutest instead of the Denafrips DAC I just sat back and enjoyed the sound. Both were connected by the same USB cable to my Statement.


----------



## koven

Triode User said:


> I borrowed a friends Denafrips Ares 2. Not a Terminator but still useful to get the idea of the house sound. I am afraid this didn’t last two hours in my system never mind two weeks. It had a thumpy exaggerated bass with no detail to it. The top end was of the initially impressive type of sound but which very quickly became fatiguing. The mid range missed out on subtle detail of instruments and notes that had somehow disappeared from the track I was playing. Sure this was all compared to what I consider to be a well sorted Dave/Mscaler but when I connect my Qutest instead of the Denafrips DAC I just sat back and enjoyed the sound. Both were connected by the same USB cable to my Statement.



Well yes the keyword there is 'not a Terminator' i.e. there's no value or merit in comparing one company's entry level to another's flagship (w/ HMS, no less). It'd be pretty closed minded to write off the Terminator based on how the Ares 2 sounds. Imagine if someone's curiosity of DAVE was hindered by the Mojo, that'd be a shame. Ultimately I like DAVE more, in a vacuum I think it's generally better but I can see someone preferring the Terminator sound. May have stronger synergy in some systems. It's no slouch, just different.


----------



## AndrewOld

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Just for a bit of fun, what would be the new product you would most covet if released by Chord Electronics?
> 
> For me top 3:
> 1) Active Loudspeakers with Dave DAC inside and DSP room Frequency adjustment for perfect flat in room frequency response. (Like Dutch & Dutch 8c)
> ...



A DAVE successor that didn’t need £1400 cables or irritating batteries to work at its best with an M Scaler. And which didn’t have upsampling circuitry that the MScaler makes redundant. And which didn’t have the inputs, controls and displays that the M Scaler makes redundant. And in a case that is less wastefully overengineered.  And thus a lot cheaper.

Don’t think Chord have the remotest chance of producing a decent speaker. But they could make an excellent active drive system for other loudspeaker manufacturers to use.


----------



## edwardsean

koven said:


> Well yes the keyword there is 'not a Terminator' i.e. there's no value or merit in comparing one company's entry level to another's flagship (w/ HMS, no less). It'd be pretty closed minded to write off the Terminator based on how the Ares 2 sounds. Imagine if someone's curiosity of DAVE was hindered by the Mojo, that'd be a shame. Ultimately I like DAVE more, in a vacuum I think it's generally better but I can see someone preferring the Terminator sound. May have stronger synergy in some systems. It's no slouch, just different.



I think you make a a really good point. Could you share you're impressions of the two DACs?


----------



## koven

edwardsean said:


> I think you make a a really good point. Could you share you're impressions of the two DACs?



Well I'm generally aligned to the nuances @llamaluv described a few posts back but here's a whimsical analogy in addition. Terminator is like putting on sunglasses outside... you're protected from the glare and you can see just fine, but your vision is also tinted, colored. DAVE is no sunglasses and 20/20 sight to boot. Look one way and wow what a beautiful glistening day. Look another way and you may wince, i.e. poor recordings.


----------



## Uncle Monty

edwardsean said:


> Well, I just went on a tear reading everything I could find on the Denafrips Terminator. There are a few users on the Terminator thread that compare it to the DAVE. As can be expected, they like the Terminator. One user borrowed a friend's DAVE for a week, and ended up keeping it in the closet after A/Bing it against the Denafrips.
> 
> Both are top tier DACs, but I'm having trouble getting a fix on the sonic differences. What is clear is that the Terminator has the more dense presentation. That makes sense to me, esp. as "thinness" can be a characteristic weakness of the DAVE, and the Terminator has those massive, back breaking, toroidal transformers.
> 
> ...


There's an interview with Rob Watts where he's a bit dismissive of 'ladder DACs' , describing them as a 'dead end' I think - might be wrong - anyone?


----------



## edwardsean

koven said:


> Well I'm generally aligned to the nuances @llamaluv described a few posts back but here's a whimsical analogy in addition. Terminator is like putting on sunglasses outside... you're protected from the glare and you can see just fine, but your vision is also tinted, colored. DAVE is no sunglasses and 20/20 sight to boot. Look one way and wow what a beautiful glistening day. Look another way and you may wince, i.e. poor recordings.



That analogy makes a lot of sense to me and that was my general working assumption as well. What threw me off was the way that people related the hyper-detailed quality of the Terminator, even exceeding the DAVE. Micro details are described to pop out much more vividly than the DAVE. Negatively interpreted, this could be oversharpening that is perhaps artificial and fatiguing. Nevertheless, the consistent impression by proponents of Denafrips is that of greater engagement than the DAVE.

The very thing you lose with filtered vision is the detail and engagement with the image. Everything recedes and doesn't pop out. 



Uncle Monty said:


> There's an interview with Rob Watts where he's a bit dismissive of 'ladder DACs' , describing them as a 'dead end' I think - might be wrong - anyone?



I'm not overly concerned with this line of reasoning. it's like being dismissive of tube technology. Yes, there are inherent theoretical disadvantages compared to solid state. However, there are wonderful tube designs and a reason why they continue to exist at every level of audio. This isn't the first time R2R has been written off, yet smart designers keep finding a way to make it relevant. I'm team Chord FPGA, but I can't rule out Denafrips on spec, just because its R2R. 

There's a rule among seasoned pro audio engineers. "If it sounds good, it is good." Doesn't matter how you got there.


----------



## koven

edwardsean said:


> That analogy makes a lot of sense to me and that was my general working assumption as well. What threw me off was the way that people related the hyper-detailed quality of the Terminator, even exceeding the DAVE. Micro details are described to pop out much more vividly than the DAVE. Negatively interpreted, this could be oversharpening that is perhaps artificial and fatiguing. Nevertheless, the consistent impression by proponents of Denafrips is that of greater engagement than the DAVE.
> 
> The very thing you lose with filtered vision is the detail and engagement with the image. Everything recedes and doesn't pop out.
> 
> ...



Yes I think you have the right grasp on it. In a DAVE thread, it should be unsurprising that DAVE is defended w/ prejudice but holistically there isn't and never will be a consensus on best. DAVE is simply one of many high end discrete options among Bricasti, dCS, CH, MSB, Nagra, Playback, Rockna, Lampi, Mola Mola, the list goes on. Each has their own take on DAC design with their own fanbase. As a consumer you can peruse hundreds of rose-colored impressions only to end up more confused than when you started. There's really no bad choices at this tier, merely different flavors. At some point you just have to bite the bullet and try some first-hand. 

Enzo Ferrari smugly told tractor maker Ferruccio Lamborghini that his criticisms of Ferrari was unfounded nonsense. Lo and behold 50+ years later Lamborghini remains one of Ferrari's top competitors.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Jun 8, 2020)

Just checked the architecture specs for PCM on the Denafrips and it is 26bit! I wouldn’t bother even sound testing such a product against something like a Dave DAC. Bit depth architecture has a huge affect on image focus. Listen to any DAW setup for processing in 32bit and then compare to the 64bit version. Any DAW you like to try. You would never give 32bit system time of day from then on.
In this day an age I amazed there are still DACs trying to claim the high ground with such low bit depth tbh.


----------



## edwardsean (Jun 8, 2020)

@koven, First of all, the Ferrari/Lamborghini story was choice.

And, I know we're talking about this in the Headfi house of DAVE. I am one of the family. I've paid my DAVE entrance fee and learned the secret handshake.

Yet, I'm not crazy about judging audio "prejudicially." What is it again? Digital to Audio Veritas Extremus? "Truth to the extreme" right? We chose DAVE because we want biases overturned in favor of the true sound. We have to let the actual audio speak its facts for itself. Specs aren't meaningless. @DaveRedRef-III, I get what you're saying, but they're not everything either.

The Terminator can also do DSD1024 and PCM1536. Does that now make it better than the DAVE, which is stuck at 512/768? That's not even theoretical for me. I use HQP and I actually want 1024/1536. Srajan Ebaen over at 6Moons tested out the 1536KHz upscaling quite favorably on the Denafrips. But, this such a small piece of all of this right?

In the DAW 32bit/64bit comparison–you mean all other things being equal right? It's not just 64bit processing no matter how bad it is. In the case of these DACs all other things aren't equal. That's what we're discussing. Consider....

Lamborghini to Ferrari, "I beat you, V12, baby, V12! How many cylinders you got, 6, pfff, 8? I got 12. Count em, 12 cylinders. I win. I win!"
Ferrari: "Mmm... I think there might be a little bit more to an engine than the cylinder count. It's just a little bit more complicated."
Porsche: "Hey fellas. I really don't give a rip about any of this. What say we take it to LeMans and we'll see who wins. Veritas extremus."


----------



## audio_1

koven said:


> Yes I think you have the right grasp on it. In a DAVE thread, it should be unsurprising that DAVE is defended w/ prejudice but holistically there isn't and never will be a consensus on best. DAVE is simply one of many high end discrete options among Bricasti, dCS, CH, MSB, Nagra, Playback, Rockna, Lampi, Mola Mola, the list goes on. Each has their own take on DAC design with their own fanbase. As a consumer you can peruse hundreds of rose-colored impressions only to end up more confused than when you started. There's really no bad choices at this tier, merely different flavors. At some point you just have to bite the bullet and try some first-hand.
> 
> Enzo Ferrari smugly told tractor maker Ferruccio Lamborghini that his criticisms of Ferrari was unfounded nonsense. Lo and behold 50+ years later Lamborghini remains one of Ferrari's top competitors.



The difference with the Dave and the mScaler is that Rob is the only DAC designer using long tap reconstruction filters. It it the only DAC that can recover transient information correctly from 44.1 kHz as far as I know. In another automotive analogy, it is really the only car with round wheels, all the other ones have square ones, irrespective of cost! It obviously could be improved, better power supply and of course dual optical inputs, with perhaps LC or ST connectors for attaching to a 2m tap mScaler.


----------



## edwardsean

audio_1 said:


> The difference with the Dave and the mScaler is that Rob is the only DAC designer using long tap reconstruction filters. It it the only DAC that can recover transient information correctly from 44.1 kHz as far as I know. In another automotive analogy, it is really the only car with round wheels, all the other ones have square ones, irrespective of cost! It obviously could be improved, better power supply and of course dual optical inputs, with perhaps LC or ST connectors for attaching to a 2m tap mScaler.



I'm sure you're well aware that there is also a software approach in HQP. The technical differences between the two are continuously debated, and there is no need to rehash it here. Both Rob Watts and Jussi Lasko are building filters with the computationally complex algorithms necessary to properly reconstruct the original waveforms. Jussi's long tap filters are different than Rob Watts, but also sound wonderful. Being software based they can be readily applied to any DAC. 

HQP filters also go up to double the sample rate of Mscaler filters, which is why it is nice to see that DACs like the Terminator can take advantage of them and scale to 1536KHz. 

Again, same side. I'm team DAVE. Though I'm sure that is highly suspect over the course of this discussion. I'm just fascinated by the long tap length technology that Rob Watts pioneered and enjoy exploring it in different forms.


----------



## GreenBow (Jun 9, 2020)

audio_1 said:


> The difference with the Dave and the mScaler is that Rob is the only DAC designer using long tap reconstruction filters. It it the only DAC that can recover transient information correctly from 44.1 kHz as far as I know. In another automotive analogy, it is really the only car with round wheels, all the other ones have square ones, irrespective of cost! It obviously could be improved, better power supply and of course dual optical inputs, with perhaps LC or ST connectors for attaching to a 2m tap mScaler.



I like how you pointed out your vision for stuff for a next gen system.

Only today I was thinking similarly. Going with the TT2 +M-Scaler model, but the same with the DAVE and the M-Scaler. I think it would be great if Chord built another module the same dimensions as the TT and M-Scaler. The purpose of the module in my mind, would be to supply power to the TT2 and M-Scaler. Also to filter the signal between the M-Scaler and the TT2, in the same way that the Opto-DX does. (Converting to optical and then back to coaxial.)

All of this would of course be isolated and noise immune, so that noise could not travel from M-Scaler to TT2. Same with the powering of the TT2 and M-Scaler from the unit. Meaning the unit would need one plug in, and the internals separate and clean power to TT2 and M-Scaler. Therefore eliminating any chance of noise skipping from TT2 to M-Scaler via mains. TT2 and M-Scaler would not even plug into mains. Just a power cable from clean power from the unit, to TT2 and one to M-Scaler.

It could be just a power supply, and then use Triode's WAVE cables. However it would be really nice if the unit could clean the signal too, like the Opto-DX.

It's exciting to think about. Might become a large unit though.


----------



## audio_1

GreenBow said:


> I like how you pointed out your vision for stuff for a next gen system.
> 
> Only today I was thinking similarly. Going with the TT2 +M-Scaler model, but the same with the DAVE and the M-Scaler. I think it would be great if Chord built another module the same dimensions as the TT and M-Scaler. The purpose of the module in my mind, would be to supply power to the TT2 and M-Scaler. Also to filter the signal between the M-Scaler and the TT2, in the same way that the Opto-DX does. (Converting to optical and then back to coaxial.)
> 
> ...



The big attraction for me, as well as the sound quality benefits is that it would allow using long optical cables. All digital source components can be placed away from between the speakers to the side of the listening room without the need for long analogue interconnect cables. The mScaler would be used to select sources. My system is currently configured like this, but the opto-DX is required. Physical distance also ensures that RF noise from digital components is well away from sensitive analogue components.


----------



## koven

audio_1 said:


> The difference with the Dave and the mScaler is that Rob is the only DAC designer using long tap reconstruction filters. It it the only DAC that can recover transient information correctly from 44.1 kHz as far as I know. In another automotive analogy, it is really the only car with round wheels, all the other ones have square ones, irrespective of cost! It obviously could be improved, better power supply and of course dual optical inputs, with perhaps LC or ST connectors for attaching to a 2m tap mScaler.



HQP can turn those square wheels into round wheels...


----------



## PhenixS1970

Hi All,

I'm thinking about having a listen to a Purifi Eigentakt digital amplifier using DAVE as pre.

Below some specs of the amp:


Output power (max)8Ω @1%THD : 227W
4Ω @1%THD : 425W
2Ω @1%THD : 450W


Gain of + 7.2dB, for a total of 20dB (default) - Maximum power reached with a signal of ~ 4.2V RMS
Gain of + 12.5dB, for a total of 25.3dB - Maximum power reached with a signal of ~ 2.2V RMS
Bypass: in this case the signal passes directly from the inputs to the modules, allowing the lowest possible gain of 12.8dB. This mode can be interesting when using a powerful preamplifier, capable of driving a load of 2 to 4kOhm and reaching a voltage of ~ 10V RMS
Any recommendations on which gain with DAVE?

Thank you in advance.


----------



## ecwl

PhenixS1970 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I'm thinking about having a listen to a Purifi Eigentakt digital amplifier using DAVE as pre.
> 
> ...


It’s whatever gain you actually need. There are several ways to figure this out...
1) if the Chord Etude is giving you 150W into 4ohms maximum and loud enough for you and the Etude has somewhere between 28dB-30dB gain, you might have enough power going to the Purifi with default of a total 20dB gain.
2) DAVE digitally clips at +4dB which is about 6-7V. If you add the M-Scaler, DAVE would clip at +7dB But the max music amplitude would still be 6-7V. So in theory, you can try Bypass mode with Purifi to see if that’s enough power
3) If you normally set your DAVE say at -30dB to-10dB with the Etude, and the gain of Etude is 28-30dB, you should at least be able to set your DAVE volume to -23dB to -3dB for the Purifi in default more for a gain of 20dB.

That said, the reason why pairing Chord DACs with class D amplifier is not recommended is because class D amplifiers switch at a very low frequency, e.g. Purifi @ 500kHz. By comparison, your Chord DACs are first upsampling to 705/768kHz and then to 104MHz to create an analog waveform and preserve timing accuracy. If the amplifier switches at 500kHz, you’re going to worsen the timing accuracy of Chord DACs. Sonically, what you would hear is that transients are less precise, e.g. finger snaps, drum strikes, guitar plucks. Moreover, the worsening transients can also alter the timbre of instruments and vocals. Moreover, many class D amplifiers have high noise floor modulation (although maybe not Purifi). Increased noise floor modulation can make the music sound bright although sometimes it can make the music sound exciting. The end result is less accurate music reproduction.

However, I know many people in person and on head-fi/audiophile style forums that pair their Chord DACs with class D amplifiers. There is no doubt class D amplifiers frequently have significantly higher signal-to-noise ratio so you’re getting much better soundstage depths from your Chord DACs. Moreover, it just depends on what you’re listening for. Because for some people, the blurred transients can sound smoother (like DSD DACs) and the noise floor modulation can make the music sound exciting so even though the music is less accurate, people sometimes just like the sound of their class D amplifiers more. I personally owned DAVE and Mojo for over 1-1/2 years and cannot tell the difference in transient accuracy until I went to a Boston Symphony Orchestra Concert and reminded myself what live instruments sound like. But I’ve also read people online who frequent live orchestral performance who believe that their R2R DACs with class D amps sound more realistic than Chord DAVE with class A amps. 

I’m personally super curious about the new Purifi Eigentakt amplifier myself and would love to have an opportunity to hear it. Ultimately, if you think you enjoy the pairing of an amp to your Chord DAC more, you should go for it. It’s just good to know the technical side of things.


----------



## HeeBroG

Hi @ecwl,

"DAVE digitally clips at +4dB which is about 6-7V. If you add the M-Scaler, DAVE would clip at +7dB But the max music amplitude would still be 6-7V."

I have some DSD recordings that are particularly soft eg. Hope by Hugh Masekela

I use DAVE direct to 105dB quasi full range drivers.

I sometimes turn DAVE/Blu2 up beyond +7dB with a commensurate increase in volume and it still sounds clean without any obvious clipping.

Can you explain how that happen if "max music amplitude" of 6-7V occurs at +7dB?

Thanks


----------



## JaZZ

+7 dB doesn't necessarily mean clipping. Clipping just occurs with signal peaks reaching -0 dB, = full level in the digital domain. That means a recording that never reaches higher than -3 db won't begin to clip before +10 dB.


----------



## PhenixS1970 (Jun 10, 2020)

ecwl said:


> It’s whatever gain you actually need. There are several ways to figure this out...
> 1) if the Chord Etude is giving you 150W into 4ohms maximum and loud enough for you and the Etude has somewhere between 28dB-30dB gain, you might have enough power going to the Purifi with default of a total 20dB gain.
> 2) DAVE digitally clips at +4dB which is about 6-7V. If you add the M-Scaler, DAVE would clip at +7dB But the max music amplitude would still be 6-7V. So in theory, you can try Bypass mode with Purifi to see if that’s enough power
> 3) If you normally set your DAVE say at -30dB to-10dB with the Etude, and the gain of Etude is 28-30dB, you should at least be able to set your DAVE volume to -23dB to -3dB for the Purifi in default more for a gain of 20dB.
> ...



Thank you very much for your very detailed feedback, ecwl.  I'll have to read it a couple of times to let it sink but happy to hijack your knowledge this way   I'll certainly report back after I have received the amp (end of Jun).

Edit: According to specs Etude has a gain of 30db.  Listening volume is between -40 (relax) and -30 (loud) on DAVE using Vivid Audio Kaya 25 speakers.


----------



## llamaluv (Jun 11, 2020)

Can we talk more about power cables with the DAVE?

I've been using various sub-$200 power cables for all my components up to this point and never found any of them to sound noticeably different from each other. But I recently got a *PS Audio AC12 *and have been kind of blown away by the changes it's made to the DAVE compared to what I'm used to.  This is the first "high-end" power cable I've ever tried, so I have no idea where the AC12 lies in relation to other (literally) heavy-weight cables out there.

Regardless, here are some observations on the AC12 from the last couple days. My normal cable is a Wireworld Electra 7.

The AC12 gives a "dryer" sound, and is less loose and less excitable-sounding. Less sense of decay, maybe? Blacker background. For those who have added high-end BNC cables or an Opto-DX to their M-Scalers, the effect is similar. But now twice as pronounced, at least for me. And I get the sense there's less extraneous "stuff" happening in the upper-mids and the treble. These changes can be interpreted as good or bad, though after a period of readjustment, I think it's common for people to embrace them.

Relatedly, soundstage is more "orderly", placement of instruments within the space seems more deliberate and there's more empty space between them, and I find music to be generally more comprehensible. In contrast, at one point when I switched back to the Wireworld Electra, I had this weird moment of "audio aphasia" where I did not comprehend what it was I was listening to -- it's like there was lots of sound all around me, tizzy cymbals and other noises, but it didn't cohere into "music" for a few seconds. That was kind of freaky. But anyway.

Bass is tighter, and this is the change which I find unequivocally positive. Up til now, I've often found the TC's bass on my solid state amps to sound too often bloatey and over-done, but this cable change ends that misgiving pretty decisively. It's always a good sign when you find yourself luxuriating in the timbre and sense of materiality of an instrument regardless of whether you're interested in the given track being played (haha). This has been my experience with stuff like stand-up bass and tom-tom drums using this cable over this period. Also, for the first time for me, it makes the TC remind me of the Utopia -- really articulate bass response, and an overall clean and precise sound.

Also worth noting is that with this cable change, I find the difference when toggling the M Scaler from off (bypass mode) to on to be more noticeable than usual. The greater smoothness and rounder transients with it on is more readily apparent.

I also tried this AC12 cable connected to the HPA4 headphone amp and didn't care for it. It sucked the bass impact out of the amp too much which made it sound bright, and it generally sounded too "controlled". But its qualities in combination with the DAVE is one I've found to be very positive so far, and has made for a fascinating listen. Synergy and all that.


----------



## Jon L

llamaluv said:


> The AC12 gives a "dryer" sound, and is less loose and less excitable-sounding. Less sense of decay, maybe? Blacker background.



IME, what you are describing is predictable given the design of these power cords.
PS Audio AC12 are 8 gauge copper cable with Quad shields per website.
Wireworld Electra 7 are 12 gauage copper with what looks to be only one shield per website pictures.  

When I experiment with DIY power cords, the more shields I add, the background becomes blacker and quieter, but past a certain point, you start losing sparkle, life.  Things can become too dark and boring.  One exception is digital components (like DAC's) that can respond better to more shielding than analogue components.  

I personally build DIY power cords and use a couple of shields for digital components and prefer to use unshielded, higher-AWG, power cords for analogue amplifiers, mixing and matching different characters so that the whole system is balanced.


----------



## edwardsean

Yes, please let's talk about power cables!

I'm in the market myself and find myself aswim in the sea of options. And still, there are ever present voices on the shore beckoning me back to the solid land of stock cables. I wouldn't even heed this except some people I really respect, with better systems than us all, tell me not to bother upgrading power cables for DAVE. 

All in all, I'm sure it's worth experimenting. I almost got the Vovox excelsus (previously Textura), but then read it may not be best suited for digital devices. 

Presently, I'm looking at a possible DIY using Furutech FI-50s. I'm also exploring Synergistic Research offerings on the suggestion of someone on this thread.  I'm not sure how much money to sink into this. I'd like to find that price point of most improvement before the law of diminishing returns kicks in too hard. 

Any suggestions for the DAVE or a line on a good used cable would be greatly appreciated. 

@llamaluv, how did you settle on the PSAudio AC12?


----------



## llamaluv (Jun 12, 2020)

Jon L said:


> IME, what you are describing is predictable given the design of these power cords.
> PS Audio AC12 are 8 gauge copper cable with Quad shields per website.
> Wireworld Electra 7 are 12 gauage copper with what looks to be only one shield per website pictures.
> 
> When I experiment with DIY power cords, the more shields I add, the background becomes blacker and quieter, but past a certain point, you start losing sparkle, life.  Things can become too dark and boring.  One exception is digital components (like DAC's) that can respond better to more shielding than analogue components.


That's really interesting, thanks.



edwardsean said:


> @llamaluv, how did you settle on the PSAudio AC12?



Since I didn't know any better, I just browsed US Audio Mart, looking for a bargain and something that I assumed would be easily re-sellable if need be.


----------



## edwardsean

llamaluv said:


> For those who have added high-end BNC cables or an Opto-DX to their M-Scalers, the effect is similar. But now twice as pronounced, at least for me



So, you found the power cable had a bigger effect than Opto-DX? I always figured that any digital cabling, conditioning, reclocking, optical "moats," etc. to the DAC would have a bigger impact than the power cable, conditioning, supply, etc.


----------



## austinpop

llamaluv said:


> That's really interesting, thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Since I didn't know any better, I just browsed US Audio Mart, looking for a bargain and something that I assumed would be easily re-sellable if need be.



I’d advise you to give PS Audio a quick call and validate you got a genuine cable. Hopefully it’s all good, but sadly the AC-12 has had an infestation of knockoffs. I got burned a few years ago, and I must say PS Audio were amazing in taking care of me.

If you search the PS audio forums you’ll come across the discussion.


----------



## llamaluv

edwardsean said:


> So, you found the power cable had a bigger effect than Opto-DX? I always figured that any digital cabling, conditioning, reclocking, optical "moats," etc. to the DAC would have a bigger impact than the power cable, conditioning, supply, etc.



I did, yea. Yep!



austinpop said:


> I’d advise you to give PS Audio a quick call and validate you got a genuine cable. Hopefully it’s all good, but sadly the AC-12 has had an infestation of knockoffs. I got burned a few years ago, and I must say PS Audio were amazing in taking care of me.



I was aware of that issue, yea. I got the cable from an original owner, who looks very much above-board. But I like your suggestion of contacting PS Audio directly for peace of mind, I think I'll do that.


----------



## GryphonGuy

llamaluv said:


> Can we talk more about power cables with the DAVE?



I use Shunyata Sigma NR on my DAVE out of Shunyata Denali power distributor. Worth every dollar! A far more neutral combination than the older Sigma cables.

Shunyata Sigma power cables on their own tend to have differing tonal accentuations until you plug them into their distributors. The NR range seems to be more neutral than the older models even on their own.

Regards
GG


----------



## edwardsean

Count me a power cable believer. I can't believe how much of a difference it makes! Unfortunately, my first experience showed me how bad it can get. I didn't start with a "real" cable. By way of a recommendation I got a Schaffner cable as a cheap way to begin experimenting. It is heavily shielded with ferrites throughout. 

This helped me get a read on just how much a power cable can darken the background and smooth out the signal: too much. It was like someone threw a heavy blanket over my head. It was nice and pitch black in there, but I got scared. You can turn down the brightness on your TV and get more solid images and deeper blacks. However, if you don't do it right, the bright elements of the picture are all pulled down and details in the shadows are crushed. I know the Schaffner is just a cheap cable. That's why I started there. It's in the trash now. 

I am very familiar with the mental reorientation that is necessary when you reduce noise. However, this is done incorrectly taking down healthy frequencies along with noise. I want the increased blackness of background and analog density and smoothness, but I'm not willing to trade transient detail, sparkle in the highs, and free dynamic movement. I'm so glad I didn't spend any serious money on a blind (deaf?) purchase. I know the Schaffner belongs in hospitals not studios but it gave me important information for 50 bucks. 

Cables do make a huge difference and are, therefore, worth the time and money to get right. You can spend a lot of money and get it very, very wrong. I'm sure there are expensive versions of the Schaffner, extremely high quality, but also built to bring smoothness and solidly at the cost of speed and high end response. 

Can someone point me to cables that will actually increase speed and high end sparkle while also adding fluidity and density? Am I looking at silver plated then? I'm using the DAVE as a standalone DAC/headphone amp, do I need shielding? Would it be better to look at unshielded cables for what I want to achieve? 

Thanks for any input you can give?


----------



## Jon L

edwardsean said:


> Can someone point me to cables that will actually increase speed and high end sparkle while also adding fluidity and density? Am I looking at silver plated then? I'm using the DAVE as a standalone DAC/headphone amp, do I need shielding? Would it be better to look at unshielded cables for what I want to achieve?
> 
> Thanks for any input you can give?



The extremely unfortunate fact is there are many cable companies out there that (claim to) have (some) answers to what you ask.  The funny thing is they have decided to make many fancy acronyms for their "breakthrough technology" that are always "patent pending," and charge $1-5K easy for one power cord.  

From trying many commercial power cords and also making many different DIY cords, I've come to the conclusion that power cords are the LEAST predictable cable in terms of how they will sound or perform in different systems.  They are highly system-dependent, and buying a $3000 cord that has great reviews does NOT guarantee great sound on a particular component in a particular system...AT all.  

I would recommend doing some research and buy some promising power cords on the used market that are easy to resell in case they don't work out.  Luckily, there are tons of audiophiles doing the same thing, stuck in the power cord hell, so the buying and selling is relatively easy.  

And/or research some sane-minded DIY power cord recipes out there and make some, trying different variations, until things "click" with your system.   When it comes to power cords, I feel it's the one cable area where a great DIY cord can compete very well with expensive commercial version.  Just make sure to get a multimeter and check everything before actually plugging in a DIY cord.


----------



## edwardsean

Jon L said:


> The extremely unfortunate fact is there are many cable companies out there that (claim to) have (some) answers to what you ask.  The funny thing is they have decided to make many fancy acronyms for their "breakthrough technology" that are always "patent pending," and charge $1-5K easy for one power cord.
> 
> From trying many commercial power cords and also making many different DIY cords, I've come to the conclusion that power cords are the LEAST predictable cable in terms of how they will sound or perform in different systems.  They are highly system-dependent, and buying a $3000 cord that has great reviews does NOT guarantee great sound on a particular component in a particular system...AT all.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this. I can definitely use the sage advice. I feel like I know the field of other cables quite well and thought it would serve me well when it came to power cables.... It was like swimming out to the middle of sea. 

I'm not opposed to DIY at all. I always check with a multimeter, but I appreciate the reminder. If you get things wrong with an interconnect you get no sound. I suppose if you get things wrong with a power cable you could get no breathing. 

Having heard by audio goals, any specific recommendations as a place to dive in. I'm thinking Furutech FI-50? What would be some good cables to look at, smooth but quick and resolving? Also, I've heard that contact enhancers make a big difference? 

As for ready made, can you point me to a few cables that might fit these characteristics of fluid but highly transparent and sparkling, extended highs? 

Thanks!


----------



## JamieMcC

llamaluv said:


> Can we talk more about power cables with the DAVE?
> 
> I've been using various sub-$200 power cables for all my components up to this point and never found any of them to sound noticeably different from each other. But I recently got a *PS Audio AC12 *and have been kind of blown away by the changes it's made to the DAVE compared to what I'm used to.  This is the first "high-end" power cable I've ever tried, so I have no idea where the AC12 lies in relation to other (literally) heavy-weight cables out there.
> 
> ...



Might be of interest

https://bottlehead.com/bottlehead-power-cord-kit-assembly/


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

GryphonGuy said:


> I use Shunyata Sigma NR on my DAVE out of Shunyata Denali power distributor. Worth every dollar! A far more neutral combination than the older Sigma cables.
> 
> Shunyata Sigma power cables on their own tend to have differing tonal accentuations until you plug them into their distributors. The NR range seems to be more neutral than the older models even on their own.
> 
> ...


The reviews of the Shunyata Sigma NR say there is not a lot of extension or energy on both ends of the spectrum, it doesn’t quite shine or pop and it's grey, cloudy, dull, soft, thick, smooth.


----------



## edwardsean

CRITICALSHOT said:


> The reviews of the Shunyata Sigma NR say there is not a lot of extension or energy on both ends of the spectrum, it doesn’t quite shine or pop and it's grey, cloudy, dull, soft, thick, smooth.



Personally, I'm looking for extension with shine and pop, smooth but not soft and dull. As for a brand, I'm closing down on Synergistic Research.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT (Jun 13, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> Personally, I'm looking for extension with shine and pop, smooth but not soft and dull. As for a brand, I'm closing down on Synergistic Research.


Synergistic Atmosphere UEF Level 3 in the 'Best 27' AB article is characterized as neutral, crystaline, resolving, holographic, solid, dynamic, effortless, glossy, alive, transparent and detailed. What headphones are you using?

Edit: They have a new one on AudiogoN for 1695 and you can tune it with those 'modules' in case you need to go a desired direction after the fact.


----------



## Thenewguy007

There are a LOT of quality alternatives for power cables UNDER $1,000.

Anything over & you are paying for branding & marketing.


----------



## edwardsean

CRITICALSHOT said:


> Synergistic Atmosphere UEF Level 3 in the 'Best 27' AB article is characterized as neutral, crystaline, resolving, holographic, solid, dynamic, effortless, glossy, alive, transparent and detailed. What headphones are you using?
> 
> Edit: They have a new one on AudiogoN for 1695 and you can tune it with those 'modules' in case you need to go a desired direction after the fact.



LCDi4. I saw the UEF Level 3 on Audiogon. But, I would like to send under 1K.


----------



## edwardsean

I went back and read Jay's reviews of the SR Atmosphere Level 3, and it does tick all the boxes I'm looking for actually. 

One thing in all of this has me a bit confused thought. Power cables like the SR reviewed are high current cables, intended for use with amplifiers that draw a lot of power. I keep coming across these kind of power cables. Occasionally, there are cables specified for digital applications like the old SR Tesla Hologram D.

Do I need to be looking for a power cable specifically for digital devices? Can I use the ones intended for more power hungry applications? However, if I got something like the SR Atmosphere High Current, am I just paying for design I don't need for the modest power requirements of the DAVE?


----------



## CRITICALSHOT (Jun 13, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> LCDi4. I saw the UEF Level 3 on Audiogon. But, I would like to send under 1K.


They have a Shunyata Research Python Helix Alpha on AG for well under 1k.

Here is some info on the Shunyata Research Python Helix Alpha:

"There is transient agility, with the leading edge of each note materializing without blurring or undue snap, and tonal honesty, neither an obvious light nor dark character. The music simply _is_, resisting attempts to explain it. In contrast, the older non-Helix Anaconda sounded slightly less energetic, a touch veiled."

"The Python Helix offered a consistently clearer, more vivid view of the music -- one that's more about the music and less about the sound. Putting this another way, the Python Helix has less of a signature than the older Anaconda, sounding more transparent and simply better."

I have the above cable connected to my Lumin U1 and the Shunyata Research Alpha Digital connected to my Dave.  The total price used for both cables used was $945.00.  There was a total tonal change and any hint of glare was gone.  The soundstage was deeper/wider and the low level detail floats in a sea of blackness.

Here is some info on the SR Alpha Digital:

"Shunyata has unleashed their biggest advance in power-cord technology with the Zitron Alpha Digital cables. They are specifically designed for digital components. *Shunyata* founder Caelin Gabriel designed the *Alpha Digital* to reduce the noise floor on all types of digital electronics, whether digital audio or video. It renders unmistakable improvement on digital players, DACs, Class-D amps, Blu-ray players, audio and video servers, and all other digital and video gear. The first and only power cable to act as a power-line conditioner on its own, the Alpha Digital Power Cord will simply leave you with your jaw on the floor. All these claims have been proven, and all doubters have been banished. Try one for yourself. This is a serious game changer... guaranteed!

The *Alpha Digital* power cord was developed directly by Caelin Gabriel to target and measurably reduce the extreme high-frequency noise generated by all types of digital electronics, whether in audio or video applications. The noise reducing property of the Alpha Digital is so significant that this can be objectively measured using a Power Analyzer. More importantly, even a brief evaluation will yield an unmistakable, dramatic improvement in sound or image quality.

In the old days, power cords designed specifically for digital used ferrous metals or heavy shielding that did more to "tune" the sound than improve it. These outdated treatments had obvious colorations such as dynamic compression and a dulling, or darkening of sound. The Alpha Digital power cord delivers a dramatic reduction in measured noise without any side-effect, leading to clearer visual images and better sound in every conceivable digital application, including new Class-D amplifiers.

*Technology*
The functional core of the Alpha Digital is Gabriel's re-working of the circuit, which has already demonstrated measurable improvement in square-wave response tests. This manipulation within the Alpha Digital lead to an immediate reduction in high-frequency noise, making this the first and only power cord that is essentially an independent power conditioner, without the associated box, added cost and connections. Of course, all of Shunyata's other treatments remain in play, from the CDA 101 Alpha-Cryogenic copper to Shunyata's own CopperConn connectors."


----------



## GryphonGuy

CRITICALSHOT said:


> The reviews of the Shunyata Sigma NR say there is not a lot of extension or energy on both ends of the spectrum, it doesn’t quite shine or pop and it's grey, cloudy, dull, soft, thick, smooth.



Not in my setup as I described through the Denali power distributor. The negative characteristics you mention above would suit the old model Sigma (non NR) cable by itself not in use with Shunyata distributors. Of course I am in a 240v 50hz power area, maybe 120v 60Hz power produces those negative flavours but certainly the NR on my Dave through the Denali is exceptionally good, transparent, fast and dynamic on both ends of the audible spectrum.

I can only call it as it performs in my system. I wouldn't give it up as the DAVE really shines on this combination in my system.

Regards
GG


----------



## edwardsean

Thank you for the information on Shunyata. Learning about all these cables has been fascinating. By way of orientation, I've decided on Synergistic Research as for a "house sound."

Now it's a matter of closing in on which model and how much I want to spend. I'm looking into the used market and I think I can find one under a 1K that will work out nicely.

I've found out that that I can generally use cables designed for high current amplification on a DAC just fine. It seems that I would only have an issue if I was trying to use a cable designed specifically for digital sources (not many) for a demanding amplifier.

If anyone has leads on a good used Syn Res. cable under a 1K, please let me know.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

GryphonGuy said:


> Not in my setup as I described through the Denali power distributor. The negative characteristics you mention above would suit the old model Sigma (non NR) cable by itself not in use with Shunyata distributors. Of course I am in a 240v 50hz power area, maybe 120v 60Hz power produces those negative flavours but certainly the NR on my Dave through the Denali is exceptionally good, transparent, fast and dynamic on both ends of the audible spectrum.
> 
> I can only call it as it performs in my system. I wouldn't give it up as the DAVE really shines on this combination in my system.
> 
> ...


I quoted this article and it was the NR.

https://audiobacon.net/2019/08/17/27-audiophile-power-cables-reviewed/22/

If it works for you then great!


----------



## PhenixS1970

Just a follow-up on my earlier postings about the Purifi power amplifier which I'll obtain shortly.  I'm aware that DAVE is optimized for SE but I wonder if it would be beneficial to use XLR OUT/IN with bypass on the amplifier  (Bypass: in this case the signal passes directly from the inputs to the modules, allowing the lowest possible gain of 12.8dB).


----------



## ecwl

PhenixS1970 said:


> Just a follow-up on my earlier postings about the Purifi power amplifier which I'll obtain shortly.  I'm aware that DAVE is optimized for SE but I wonder if it would be beneficial to use XLR OUT/IN with bypass on the amplifier  (Bypass: in this case the signal passes directly from the inputs to the modules, allowing the lowest possible gain of 12.8dB).


I use XLR to my amplifier for a number of reasons.
1) I didn’t know DAVE performs better with RCA when I bought the Nordost XLR cables
2) I also connect DAVE to my subwoofer using RCA and the sub volume is already set very low to integrate with the amp. Switching RCA and XLR would probably force me to crank the sub volume even lower and make it harder to integrate.
3) The XLR is still very transparent so the sonic difference is not as great as you’d think
4) I think my Chord Etude is still supposed to perform better with XLR than RCA (as are many amps)
So my take is that if you truly have a choice, you can just compare XLR and RCA but if there are reasons why you’d prefer to use XLR with DAVE, I would just go with XLR.


----------



## PhenixS1970 (Jun 15, 2020)

ecwl said:


> I use XLR to my amplifier for a number of reasons.
> 1) I didn’t know DAVE performs better with RCA when I bought the Nordost XLR cables
> 2) I also connect DAVE to my subwoofer using RCA and the sub volume is already set very low to integrate with the amp. Switching RCA and XLR would probably force me to crank the sub volume even lower and make it harder to integrate.
> 3) The XLR is still very transparent so the sonic difference is not as great as you’d think
> ...



Thank you very much again for your input, Ecwl.  I was thinking about this as maybe (probably) the OPA in the Purifi amplifier will be inferior to the one (XLR) in DAVE.
Neutrik sells some XLR/RCA adapters (can give these a try).

Below some more Purifi amp specs:


----------



## PhenixS1970

Probably a very stupid question but can you connect an RCA-RCA terminated interconnect using SE outputs on DAVE and on the amp end use a XLR adapter to go to balanced input?


----------



## Thenewguy007

You mean like a RCA to XLR cable like this
https://external-content.duckduckgo...es.monoprice.com/productlargeimages/47761.jpg

It would work fine.


----------



## GryphonGuy

Thenewguy007 said:


> It would work fine.



Yes it will. You will get sound but without the noise reduction features that a true balanced design would give you.

Regards
GG


----------



## PhenixS1970

Thank you for your input guys (so I assume that only a specifically wired RCA->XLR will work and adding 1 neutrik xlr adapter to an RCA-RCA cable is not the same thing).


----------



## edwardsean (Jun 17, 2020)

Hi, I've been playing PCM with my Dave and it handles all the way up to 768KHz just fine.

Today, I switched to DSD Plus and tried to play a DSD512 file from Audirvana on a Mac-USB connection. No matter what I try it always seems to play it 358.2 KHz.

Since it is not displaying the output as DSD, I suppose it is converting to PCM? In Audirvana I have it set to DoP 1.0, also tried 1.1.

Does anyone know what is going on and how to get Dave to play DSD512 correctly?

Edit: I think I found the problem. Is OS X not capable of DSD512? I used Audirvana's upsampling feature to take a redbook file to DSD256 and Dave played that without a problem. Audirvana shows that Dave only supports DSD256. is that a limitation on Mac's side? How do we play DSD512 on the Dave?


----------



## metalboss

I'm very happy with the JPS Labs "The Kaptovator Lite " , water like flow in the music compare to the default...


----------



## MacedonianHero

edwardsean said:


> Hi, I've been playing PCM with my Dave and it handles all the way up to 768KHz just fine.
> 
> Today, I switched to DSD Plus and tried to play a DSD512 file from Audirvana on a Mac-USB connection. No matter what I try it always seems to play it 358.2 KHz.
> 
> ...



I think OSX isn't capable of DSD512.


----------



## edwardsean

MacedonianHero said:


> I think OSX isn't capable of DSD512.



That's what I'm finding out. Unbelievable. I read it had something to do with the way CoreAudio handles the headers that requires double the bandwidth so it tops out half of the max DSD rate of the DAC (so DSD256). I'm not sure if this right as I'm bypassing Coreaudio using Audirvana in Direct Mode Integer 1, but then again maybe it's always active at some level. It's frustrating to be throttled by the OS in using Dave to full potential. 

On the power cord. I have the Synergistic Research Atmosphere X line coming in. I'm pretty excited, but at the same time guarding my expectations. Strong convictions swing so wildly on this that I'm really not quite sure what's going to happen. I thought the value of headphone cables and digital cables drew some heated opinions, but power cables is just insane. 

It is understandable though. Due to their need for longer and heavier conductors the material cost for power cables is through the roof. When you see figures reaching into the thousands and thousands for the same stupid cord you have tons of tossed into a box somewhere, it does raise the eyebrows.


----------



## Triode User

edwardsean said:


> That's what I'm finding out. Unbelievable. I read it had something to do with the way CoreAudio handles the headers that requires double the bandwidth so it tops out half of the max DSD rate of the DAC (so DSD256). I'm not sure if this right as I'm bypassing Coreaudio using Audirvana in Direct Mode Integer 1, but then again maybe it's always active at some level. It's frustrating to be throttled by the OS in using Dave to full potential.
> 
> On the power cord. I have the Synergistic Research Atmosphere X line coming in. I'm pretty excited, but at the same time guarding my expectations. Strong convictions swing so wildly on this that I'm really not quite sure what's going to happen. I thought the value of headphone cables and digital cables drew some heated opinions, but power cables is just insane.
> 
> It is understandable though. Due to their need for longer and heavier conductors the material cost for power cables is through the roof. When you see figures reaching into the thousands and thousands for the same stupid cord you have tons of tossed into a box somewhere, it does raise the eyebrows.



Keep an eye on how much you are considering spending on power cables in a system because a replacement power supply for the Dave might not be much more (or even less?) and it takes the Dave sound to sublime levels of subtlety and bass.


----------



## edwardsean (Jun 18, 2020)

Triode User said:


> Keep an eye on how much you are considering spending on power cables in a system because a replacement power supply for the Dave might not be much more (or even less?) and it takes the Dave sound to sublime levels of subtlety and bass.



Thank you. I will. I've heard this before, but haven't explored it, because it involves modding the unit and voids the warranty right? However, at this point, I'm well beyond the veil.

Can you point me to where I can find more information about what this involves? Also, is there a power supply model that has gained wide acceptance?

Edit: I see Sean Jacobs is the one to look at. The DC4 is very spendy. The DC3, however, surprisingly affordable. Will it also work with the Dave? 

I can see the replacement can be done by an end user. This is really intriguing.


----------



## Triode User

edwardsean said:


> Thank you. I will. I've heard this before, but haven't explored it, because it involves modding the unit and voids the warranty right? However, at this point, I'm well beyond the veil.
> 
> Can you point me to where I can find more information about what this involves? Also, is there a power supply model that has gained wide acceptance?
> 
> Edit: I see Sean Jacobs is the one to look at. The DC4 is very spendy. The DC3, however, surprisingly affordable. Will it also work with the Dave? How much is involved in fitting it to the Dave? I'm quite comfortable soldering and working on PCBs and electronic gear.



I have the Sean Jacobs (Custom HiFi Cables) *DC4* but I previously had the *DC3 *and that is also good. The swop over takes about 10 minutes and there is no soldering. All it takes is an allen key to take the top off the Dave. It is fully reversible with no traces of it ever having being done after being reversed. I did quite a few experiments for Sean with different power supplies to both the digital and analogue boards within the Dave and both pay remarkable dividends from using the power supplies made by Sean. He does after all design the power supplies in the Innuos Statement so he knows a thing or two about power supplies for digital equipment. I was stunned when I heard the difference.


----------



## Triode User

Pursuit Perfect System are interviewing Matt Bartlett, MD of Chord Electronics, live today at 1pm UK time.

*INTERVIEW*


----------



## adrianm

Hey guys, i've been considering a Dave lately to replace my TA-ZH1es with my Z1r's. I've auditioned it and loved it but initial impressions were Dave is immune to source /dirty power.From what i've read here, now the consensus has apparently become...not quite so immune and you also need 1.5k cables with the M-scaler and a bucket of ferrites in order for it to sound good ).And a power supply replacement  apparently,even though Rob said the psu " tested like a battery ".
    So which is it?


----------



## lovethatsound

If you've auditioned it,then your own ears have answered your question.


----------



## adrianm

Yes,but not with all the cables,and the source didn't change that much of the sound,going from a node2i to a NAIM ND555 at the store.


----------



## lovethatsound

Cables and different transports can alter the sound of any dac,including the dave.


----------



## adrianm

Yes,i know that's the audiophile party line.Tested most of this myself,found it marginal at best (except mains filtering) .But people here have been arguing with Rob about it for years apparently ).And while it was entertaining to read,i was curious about a consensus.Since Rob claimed any audible differences are most likely added distortion.


----------



## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> Hey guys, i've been considering a Dave lately to replace my TA-ZH1es with my Z1r's. I've auditioned it and loved it but initial impressions were Dave is immune to source /dirty power.From what i've read here, now the consensus has apparently become...not quite so immune and you also need 1.5k cables with the M-scaler and a bucket of ferrites in order for it to sound good ).And a power supply replacement apparently,even though Rob said the psu " tested like a battery ".
> So which is it?





adrianm said:


> Yes,i know that's the audiophile party line.Tested most of this myself,found it marginal at best (except mains filtering) .But people here have been arguing with Rob about it for years apparently ).And while it was entertaining to read,i was curious about a consensus.Since Rob claimed any audible differences are most likely added distortion.



You know Headfi should just add a feature where whenever you type the word: endgame, it autocorrects to "endgame." 

I just recently got a Dave to simplify. It's a compact top tier DAC+headphone amp all in one. I thought it was the end. I really did. 

It was just the start... as usual. Now, boxes and cables are populating themselves around my Dave like bunnies. 

Just a few quick clarifications. The Mscaler is obvious improvement right? Also, the heavily ferrited Wave BNC cables get no argument from Rob Watts as he uses them himself. 

When he talks about adding distortion I'm convinced he must be right when talking about, e.g., external headphone amplifiers. However, I'm quickly coming to the opposite conclusion about the power supply, and I'm presently looking into the upgrade myself. 

To be sure the Dave in stock form is wonderful. However, I'm so sorry to have to say this, but it's so wonderful it contains potential far beyond simple options for getting a signal in and out of it.


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> You know Headfi should just add a feature where whenever you type the word: endgame, it autocorrects to "endgame."
> 
> I just recently got a Dave to simplify. It's a compact top tier DAC+headphone amp all in one. I thought it was the end. I really did.
> 
> ...


Are you using any mains filters/regenerators? and what kind of system are you using it in?


----------



## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> Are you using any mains filters/regenerators? and what kind of system are you using it in?



Nope. That's exactly at issue for me. Do I go mains conditioning + upgraded power cable or retrofit the power supply. I was set on the first route. However, I'm looking at the Synergistic Research Atmosphere Level 3, which I have inbound for a demo. Triode User broke in let me know that if I'm considering this amount of cost that I really should look into upgrading the power supply instead. Talking with him, Austinpop over at audiophile style, and Sean Jacobs himself is persuading me that the power supply will do the most good–by far. 

I've also ordered an Opto-DX to go into the Dave which I'm going to use in conjunction with my IsoRegen. Everything is being power by battery or linear power supply. Going out of the Dave, I'm strictly headphone out.


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> Nope. That's exactly at issue for me. Do I go mains conditioning + upgraded power cable or retrofit the power supply. I was set on the first route. However, I'm looking at the Synergistic Research Atmosphere Level 3, which I have inbound for a demo. Triode User broke in let me know that if I'm considering this amount of cost that I really should look into upgrading the power supply instead. Talking with him, Austinpop over at audiophile style, and Sean Jacobs himself is persuading me that the power supply will do the most good–by far.
> 
> I've also ordered an Opto-DX to go into the Dave which I'm going to use in conjunction with my IsoRegen. Everything is being power by battery or linear power supply. Going out of the Dave, I'm strictly headphone out.


Wow,that sounds like a whole bunch of solutions looking for a problem .I’d try some isotek mains filters before going though


----------



## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> Wow,that sounds like a whole bunch of solutions looking for a problem .I’d try some isotek mains filters before going though



You know, so many times, so many, I think you may just be right! But, I know you aren't (huge, wicked grin).


----------



## yagislav

Do you guys put the DAVE into stand by mode (off button from the remote) when not listening? It runs warm even when no signal is being fed into it. 
From my understanding there is no need to turn the switch off behind the DAVE, wondering if it is necessary to hit the power button on the remote control when done listening for the night.


----------



## TheAttorney

yagislav said:


> From my understanding there is no need to turn the switch off behind the DAVE, wondering if it is necessary to hit the power button on the remote control when done listening for the night.



I do use the remote to put DAVE into standby overnight, and I avoid ever fully switching DAVE off.
Don't try fully switching DAVE off when you're still wearing headphones (or when a loudspeaker amp is still on) else your headphones and ears will get a nasty shock from the considerable switch-off thump.

Note that standby still leaves the input circuits (and possibly more) still fully active. It's a fair compromise between saving the planet vs keeping DAVE ready for action.


----------



## Triode User

yagislav said:


> Do you guys put the DAVE into stand by mode (off button from the remote) when not listening? It runs warm even when no signal is being fed into it.
> From my understanding there is no need to turn the switch off behind the DAVE, wondering if it is necessary to hit the power button on the remote control when done listening for the night.



I put Dave into standby using the remote if I remember which is about 1 day in 3. I never unpower it unless it is being moved.


----------



## MacedonianHero

^ I do the same thing. If I'm not gonna use it for 3-4 days, then I'll physically turn it off on the back (if I remember). Otherwise, it's just Standby.


----------



## F208Frank

Any DAVE owners here feel like the amp section of DAVE drives the abyss 1266 decently?


----------



## simorag (Jun 24, 2020)

F208Frank said:


> Any DAVE owners here feel like the amp section of DAVE drives the abyss 1266 decently?



I feel that the DAVE extracts from 80% to 100% of what the AB-1266 has to give depending on the music type, and listening volume.

Also, personal preferences play a big role. As a limit case, if somebody focuses as a listener very much on transparency and microdetail, tonal purity, timbre neutrality, perhaps this persona can get close to 100% from the DAVE or even find an amplifier in between as a detriment.

To the other end of the spectrum, if one typically enjoys extreme dynamics music (large scale orchestral works in my case), at concert-like SPL, the benefits of an amp become apparent at first listen.

However, I found it pretty difficult to find an amplifier that was able to preserve the DAVE direct virtues and adding extra value to the AB-1266 listening experience, to be honest.
In the best case, what we can gain from a very well matched amplifier is - at least in my experience - in terms of soundstage size, bass control and visceral impact, better articulation of very busy music played loud, and ... last but not least a subjectively pleasing coloration if one so desires.

The thing is that, once you have invested so much into a DAVE and a TC, you (thanks to that little devil on your shoulder always giving unsolicited advices ) will most likely end up sooner or later running that extra mile and get that amp ... and it will be rather expensive as well.

But, we are _audiophiles _aren't we?


----------



## adrianm

simorag said:


> I feel that the DAVE extracts from 80% to 100% of what the AB-1266 has to give depending on the music type, and listening volume.
> 
> Also, personal preferences play a big role. As a limit case, if somebody focuses as a listener very much on transparency and microdetail, tonal purity, timbre neutrality, perhaps this persona can get close to 100% from the DAVE or even find an amplifier in between as a detriment.
> 
> ...


I probably know what you're going to say here but, out of curiosity,have you tried A/B ing Dave out of laptop/pc running roon/tidal desktop app in exclusive mode vs streamer and reclockers and all of that?


----------



## JamieMcC

Hook up question 

When hooking up to try Dave to speakers direct from the Dave's RCA outputs via a adaptor is there a preferred way of connection using a adaptor?

The two choices seem to be adaptor direct on to Dave rca  outputs then cable run to speakers

Or 

2 long RCA cable from Dave with short adaptor at speaker end.

Thoughts welcome


----------



## Triode User

JamieMcC said:


> Hook up question
> 
> When hooking up to try Dave to speakers direct from the Dave's RCA outputs via a adaptor is there a preferred way of connection using a adaptor?
> 
> ...



My 2p is that a standard RCA interconnect cable is not suitable for connecting to speakers because it is unlikely to have sufficient current carrying ability (they normally only have thin wires). So I suggest have an adapter at the Dave end and run normal speaker cables between that and the speakers.


----------



## JamieMcC

Triode User said:


> My 2p is that a standard RCA interconnect cable is not suitable for connecting to speakers because it is unlikely to have sufficient current carrying ability (they normally only have thin wires). So I suggest have an adapter at the Dave end and run normal speaker cables between that and the speakers.



Thanks that makes sense


----------



## jlbrach

simorag said:


> I feel that the DAVE extracts from 80% to 100% of what the AB-1266 has to give depending on the music type, and listening volume.
> 
> Also, personal preferences play a big role. As a limit case, if somebody focuses as a listener very much on transparency and microdetail, tonal purity, timbre neutrality, perhaps this persona can get close to 100% from the DAVE or even find an amplifier in between as a detriment.
> 
> ...


I have used the 1266 TC both straight out of the Dave /Blu2 and with several different amps most recently the formula s/powerman combo....to my ears the TC sounds quite good direct as long as you listen to modern remastered music but with older Jazz and blues and mono recordings I find the amp to be necessary...I pretty much listen out of the amp now 100% of the time....


----------



## simorag

adrianm said:


> I probably know what you're going to say here but, out of curiosity,have you tried A/B ing Dave out of laptop/pc running roon/tidal desktop app in exclusive mode vs streamer and reclockers and all of that?



Before taking the plunge to the ZENith, I used a PC for a couple of years as a source.
At the time I was not using streaming services, and all my music was stored into the internal drive of the PC.

I experienced dramatic improvements by upgrading from a regular desktop PC to a highly optimized laptop, where I spent almost 1 year to continuously tweaking it.

At the peak of my madness I was running Windows 2016 Server with no GUI together with Audiophile Optimizer, JPLAY in Extreme mode (laptop screen off), Fidelizer Pro, Process Lasso, and using audiophile music players like HQPlayer, or MinimServer. All this disconnected by the network (both ethernet and wifi) and from mains (laptop running off batteries).
Basically I decided to move to a music server mostly to stop my compulsive attitude to tweaking ... and ahhh what a relief since then 

Sound wise, when I compared a basic PC to the tweaked laptop the differences were _stark_, as I mentioned above. By comparison the improvement from the music server was more subtle, yet still apparent.

By "only" installing Audiophile Optimizer, JPLAY and Fidelizer Pro on a regular Windows 10 laptop (i.e. limited hassle, limited investment) I believe you will get more than a glimpse of what a good music server has to offer.

On the hardware side, I never tried external clocks, but I am happy with my ISO Regen USB reclocker and EtherRegen ethernet switch. On one side I hate to have to deal with all these boxes, PSU, cables etc. but I tried to remove them even recently by repeating some A/B test and I simply feel that my system sounds better with them in place.

So, if your question was about how sensitive is DAVE to upstream improvements (hardware and software, but also cables and interconnects), my experience is that it _IS _sensitive. Whether the amount of the improvement is worth the extra money, time and system complexity is totally subjective I suppose ...


----------



## STR-1

jlbrach said:


> I have used the 1266 TC both straight out of the Dave /Blu2 and with several different amps most recently the formula s/powerman combo....to my ears the TC sounds quite good direct as long as you listen to modern remastered music but with older Jazz and blues and mono recordings I find the amp to be necessary...I pretty much listen out of the amp now 100% of the time....


The 1266 PHI TC with stock cable I’ve had on loan for two weeks is going back today.  I don’t know if I will buy one, but it did sound good straight out of my DAVE.  It does improve over my Utopia/Prion4 in some areas (e.g. natural tone and a more authoritative bass), but I could easily imagine it getting even better with more current.  As I have no intention of getting a dedicated headphone amp, I will have to make up my mind based on performance with the DAVE.


----------



## adrianm

simorag said:


> Before taking the plunge to the ZENith, I used a PC for a couple of years as a source.
> At the time I was not using streaming services, and all my music was stored into the internal drive of the PC.
> 
> I experienced dramatic improvements by upgrading from a regular desktop PC to a highly optimized laptop, where I spent almost 1 year to continuously tweaking it.
> ...


I totally get wanting to end  the madness, and i get you can get massive differences when playing files with different software tweaks and etc,but to my mind ,for streaming alone,using tidal in exclusive mode should replace most of those tweaks.I can't really see the value in getting a dedicated streamer if you're not using any files and just streaming from a service anyway.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> I totally get wanting to end  the madness, and i get you can get massive differences when playing files with different software tweaks and etc,but to my mind ,for streaming alone,using tidal in exclusive mode should replace most of those tweaks.*I can't really see the value in getting a dedicated streamer if you're not using any files and just streaming from a service anyway.*



If only life was that simple!! Your ears will probably tell a different story and that is why many of us have invested considerable sums in dedicated streamers.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> If only life was that simple!! Your ears will probably tell a different story and that is why many of us have invested considerable sums in dedicated streamers.


It can be if you let it  .I think i've mentioned this before but i tested an Auralic Vega G1 with it streaming to itself vs my Macbook streaming Tidal to it via usb.Couldn't find a difference for the life of me for 40 minutes .
   Next day i tested a Dave with a Naim Nd555  via usb and a/b it vs a Node2i...there was a very slight difference but nothing groundbreaking.And this was probably due to usb on the Naim vs Coax on the Node.On my Sony TA-Zh1es the difference was a lot more apparent,but the Node via coax sounded worse than my Pc via usb with it.
  Either way i'll a/b the Dave with the Naim vs my Macbook via usb again before i buy it,but i'm highly doubtful anything will change.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> It can be if you let it  .I think i've mentioned this before but i tested an Auralic Vega G1 with it streaming to itself vs my Macbook streaming Tidal to it via usb.Couldn't find a difference for the life of me for 40 minutes .
> Next day i tested a Dave with a Naim Nd555  via usb and a/b it vs a Node2i...there was a very slight difference but nothing groundbreaking.And this was probably due to usb on the Naim vs Coax on the Node.On my Sony TA-Zh1es the difference was a lot more apparent,but the Node via coax sounded worse than my Pc via usb with it.
> Either way i'll a/b the Dave with the Naim vs my Macbook via usb again before i buy it,but i'm highly doubtful anything will change.



I have heard sufficient difference in streamers to work my way up through an Innuos Zenith SE then adding an Innuos Phoenix and finally moving on to an Innuos Statement. All I can say is that I got sufficient improvement in sound quality which justified the expense. But then again, I have replaced the Dave power supply to get an even more serious upgrade in sound quality so I readily place myself in the crazy category for seeking perfection.

You mention a Node and I also have a Node 2i in a different room. A few of us have replaced the power supply in the 2i and have got quite remarkable improvements from doing that even though only using the 2i as a streamer.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> I have heard sufficient difference in streamers to work my way up through an Innuos Zenith SE then adding an Innuos Phoenix and finally moving on to an Innuos Statement. All I can say is that I got sufficient improvement in sound quality which justified the expense. But then again, I have replaced the Dave power supply to get an even more serious upgrade in sound quality so I readily place myself in the crazy category for seeking perfection.
> 
> You mention a Node and I also have a Node 2i in a different room. A few of us have replaced the power supply in the 2i and have got quite remarkable improvements from doing that even though only using the 2i as a streamer.


Well i'm a lot more skeptical and so far i've heard nothing that would change my mind.Speaking of though,while i have you, i was curious how exactly those Wave Bnc cables between the Dave/Mscaler improve the combo.What are the improvements ?
Apparently even Rob is using them so there must be something there,i'm just not sure why a bucket of ferrites is needed to make it sound better.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> Well i'm a lot more skeptical and so far i've heard nothing that would change my mind.Speaking of though,while i have you, i was curious how exactly those Wave Bnc cables between the Dave/Mscaler improve the combo.What are the improvements ?
> Apparently even Rob is using them so there must be something there,i'm just not sure why a bucket of ferrites is needed to make it sound better.



Best if I PM a response.


----------



## Kirklandia (Jun 25, 2020)

I'm rather embarrassed to say that while improving all my downstream equipment this year, I have only started to look into source quality. I was old school with cds until a couple years ago, as the music hobby was on the back burner with move after move. A few months ago, I paid ahead for a year of Amazon HD and sound quality was ok and selection large. But as I continually improved my equipment, the sound quality did not follow as much as expected. Then I found the problem: I never looked at the Amazon HD settings and had not changed to the highest quality stream. The difference was night and day. As I said, how embarrassing, with all this discussion of source quality. And now I can hear how much of an improvement comes in from the WAVE stream bnc cables.


----------



## EndGameSearch

There's a nice recording of an interview w/ Rob Watts at the bottom of this page.  Interesting and informative as always.

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2020/06/25/top-qna-with-digital-guru-rob-watts/


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

So it sounds like we can look forward to our Dave finally running the digital signal on to a Chord Class A (digital converting) Amp with non-switching output stage some time in 2021. That is fantastic news and I can't wait to hear the benefits.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Btw I second what Triode User was saying about the higher sound quality provided by high quality servers/streamers and particularly the Innuos Statement. If anyone has only heard the Statement 'pre the latest software overhaul' I would recommend a second listen because it most definitely has elevated the product to a new level.


----------



## adrianm

EndGameSearch said:


> There's a nice recording of an interview w/ Rob Watts at the bottom of this page.  Interesting and informative as always.
> 
> https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2020/06/25/top-qna-with-digital-guru-rob-watts/


So what's the TLDL, new Dave coming soon or what?


----------



## STR-1

DaveRedRef-III said:


> So it sounds like we can look forward to our Dave finally running the digital signal on to a Chord Class A (digital converting) Amp with non-switching output stage some time in 2021. That is fantastic news and I can't wait to hear the benefits.


Would be great if that turns out to be the case, but with the world as it is at the moment (including with shakey supply chains) “a year or two” is more likely to be 2022, if not later.


----------



## Triode User

STR-1 said:


> Would be great if that turns out to be the case, but with the world as it is at the moment (including with shakey supply chains) “a year or two” is more likely to be 2022, if not later.



Yeah, within the '_next year or so'_ is no way 2021, might be 2022 but don't count on it!!


----------



## JamieMcC (Jun 26, 2020)

After camping out here on the Dave thread and on the TT2  thread for the last year.  As of today I've finally joined the Dave owners club. While I'm up and running navigation of the settings is going to take some working out to find out what best combination suits.

Any pointers to filter or phase combinations to try out to would be welcome. 

Cheers
Jamie


----------



## ubs28

adrianm said:


> So what's the TLDL, new Dave coming soon or what?



Well, I am keeping mine. It sounds good enough.


----------



## F208Frank (Jun 26, 2020)

JamieMcC said:


> After camping out here on the Dave thread and on the TT2  thread for the last year.  As of today I've finally joined the Dave owners club. While I'm up and running navigation of the settings is going to take some working out to find out what best combination suits.
> 
> Any pointers to filter or phase combinations to try out to would be welcome.
> 
> ...


With M Scaler: Filter Off
Without M Scaler: Filter On
Phase: Positive

I asked the same question a while ago and got different answers based on different preferences. 

These settings were recommended by someone very reputable and I stuck to it. His name starts with the letter R and I like the M in MnMs.


----------



## JamieMcC

F208Frank said:


> With M Scaler: Filter Off
> Without M Scaler: Filter On
> Phase: Positive
> 
> ...



Super thanks I have now changed to your suggestion.


----------



## ecwl

JamieMcC said:


> Super thanks I have now changed to your suggestion.


Actually, from @F208Frank source, the optimal DAVE setting with M-Scaler is:
For 44.1/48kHz music source (which is most music) Dave HF Filter Off
For music source >48kHz so 88/96/176/192kHz/DSD, Dave HF Filter On because M-scaler passes through the HF noise that’s inherent in these recordings.
The recommended settings are different if you’re feeding M-Scaler into TT2 or Hugo2 or Qutest


----------



## iamoneagain (Jun 26, 2020)

F208Frank said:


> With M Scaler: Filter Off
> Without M Scaler: Filter On
> Phase: Positive
> 
> ...



I’ve heard this recommendation too and gave it a try for two weeks but in the end definitely still prefer HF On with mscaler using Focal Utopia’s. Music has more weigh and bass texture with it on.  With it off, get slightly more forward sound but lose some warmth. It was enough for me to end up buying Danacable for my Utopia to help when just turning the filter back on would solve the problem. And now even with new cable still prefer it on.

So just because Rob recommends something doesn’t mean you shouldn’t test for yourself. He may have technical reasons for it but everyone’s equipment and ears are different. He also says he listens to headphones with cross feed at 3 and I can’t stand it on at all. Good thing we have options.


----------



## iamoneagain (Jun 26, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> I’ve heard this recommendation too and gave it a try for two weeks but in the end definitely still prefer HF On with mscaler using Focal Utopia’s. Music has more weigh and bass texture with it on.  With it off, get slightly more forward sound but lose some warmth. It was enough for me to end up buying Danacable for my Utopia to help when just turning the filter back on would solve the problem. And now even with new cable still prefer it on.
> 
> So just because Rob recommends something doesn’t mean you shouldn’t test for yourself. He may have technical reasons for it but everyone’s equipment and ears are different. He also says he listens to headphones with cross feed at 3 and I can’t stand it on at all. Good thing we have options.



So funny thing. I just tested this and HF sounds better with it off when listening to Crossfeed at 3. Think crossfeed adds a bit of warmth. With HF on soundstage placement doesn’t seem right. So need to see if I now like this setting more.


----------



## edwardsean

To the OP, as is usually the case, you really have to just try it out for yourself and see which you prefer. 

Luckily this isn''t a situation where you're trying to discern between several filters (MP, LP, Short, Long, Brick wall, apodising, etc. 

It's just a toggle on/off.


----------



## F208Frank (Jun 26, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> To the OP, as is usually the case, you really have to just try it out for yourself and see which you prefer.
> 
> Luckily this isn''t a situation where you're trying to discern between several filters (MP, LP, Short, Long, Brick wall, apodising, etc.
> 
> It's just a toggle on/off.


Very interesting, for the crossfeed to 3 though, I always assumed it was a feature meant for speakers only so this is new to me. 

And of course trial and error and decide is always best.

Having guidelines is always a good start though.


----------



## JamieMcC

Thanks for the pointers all.


----------



## iamoneagain

F208Frank said:


> Very interesting, for the crossfeed to 3 though, I always assumed it was a feature meant for speakers only so this is new to me.
> 
> And of course trial and error and decide is always best.
> 
> Having guidelines is always a good start though.



Crossfeed won’t even show when headphones are unplugged. It’s use to make headphones sound more like speakers by slightly blending the left and right channels. Latest Chord dacs all have the 3 levels plus off. 3 being more speaker-like.

Strange how much better is sounds with HF off when using it. I guess that’s why I never liked it before.


----------



## F208Frank (Jun 26, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> Crossfeed won’t even show when headphones are unplugged. It’s use to make headphones sound more like speakers by slightly blending the left and right channels. Latest Chord dacs all have the 3 levels plus off. 3 being more speaker-like.
> 
> Strange how much better is sounds with HF off when using it. I guess that’s why I never liked it before.


I changed the filter off with crossfeed 3 and I like it.

Is it safe to assume if I plug in headphones to external amp after unplugging headphones from Dave with crossfeed 3 setting on, that external amp will engage crossfeed 3 as well.

Thanks learned something today unexpectedly. Always left my crossfeed to 0.


----------



## iamoneagain

F208Frank said:


> I changed the filter off with crossfeed 3 and I like it.
> 
> Is it safe to assume if I plug in headphones to external amp after unplugging headphones from Dave with crossfeed 3 setting on, that external amp will engage crossfeed 3 as well.
> 
> Thanks learned something today unexpectedly. Always left my crossfeed to 0.



Hmm, someone else will have let you know but think it only works directly out of the Dave headphone jack. Also external headphone amp not recommended with Dave except most demanding headphones. Takes away the transparency.


----------



## F208Frank

iamoneagain said:


> Hmm, someone else will have let you know but think it only works directly out of the Dave headphone jack. Also external headphone amp not recommended with Dave except most demanding headphones. Takes away the transparency.


Yes unfortunately and fortunately have the Abyss.


----------



## JaZZ

Crossfeed settings are only accessible with a headphone plugged in, but still active through the line outs. So take care to disable crossfeed beforehand when you're going to listen through speakers!

One more thing to note: The higher the crossfeed level, the higher the bass emphasis. That's A Rob Watts specialty and one of the few things on which I don't agree with him. Also a reason why I would never go higher than stage 1 – although crossfeed is actually essential for me.


----------



## Malcyg

On a related point, has anyone found a crossfeed setting in Roon that sounds good? I have found myself using cross feed lately on Dave, but the scenario with using speakers can get quite confusing given that you are unable to see whether crossfeed is engaged or not in that mode of operation. I thought therefore that I would go back to leaving crossfeed off on Dave and try and get a good setting via Roon. This would have an added benefit of being quick and easy to change. The standard crossfeed options in Roon are far less subtle than the Dave settings. You can set your own parameters so I’ll have a go at that - just wondered if anyone has already achieved a good result this way?


----------



## iamoneagain

JaZZ said:


> Crossfeed settings are only accessible with a headphone plugged in, but still active through the line outs. So take care to disable crossfeed beforehand when you're going to listen through speakers!
> 
> One more thing to note: The higher the crossfeed level, the higher the bass emphasis. That's A Rob





Malcyg said:


> On a related point, has anyone found a crossfeed setting in Roon that sounds good? I have found myself using cross feed lately on Dave, but the scenario with using speakers can get quite confusing given that you are unable to see whether crossfeed is engaged or not in that mode of operation. I thought therefore that I would go back to leaving crossfeed off on Dave and try and get a good setting via Roon. This would have an added benefit of being quick and easy to change. The standard crossfeed options in Roon are far less subtle than the Dave settings. You can set your own parameters so I’ll have a go at that - just wondered if anyone has already achieved a good result this way?



I just tested the 3 default crossfeed settings in roon and they all sound muffled compared to using Dave crossfeed 3. Could be that Chord upsampling works best with unaltered original source. Chord crossfeed is applied at the end after upsampling.

Wouldn’t it be easier to just remove headphone adapter from the Dave to disengage crossfeed when using speakers?  If you have it set to 3 but no headphones plugged in or an adapter in the socket, crossfeed won’t be engaged in line out.


----------



## iamoneagain (Jun 27, 2020)

So after comparing crossfeed 3 to off setting (with HF filter off), I prefer no crossfeed at least for rock/alternative music. I feel too far away with it on. I like feeling like I’m close to the stage. More impact and my engaging.

So not sure if it’s because my Danacable on the Utopia’s is fully broken in but on quick listen, HF off with no crossfeed is now sounding best. Music has same weight on or off, but with it off there is more transparency.  When I tested setting before it was with stock cable. But this is still just on quick listen. I may still end up back with setting on.  So I’m not giving anyone advice since I can’t even make up my own mind.

Oh I forgot that I made one other important change since my prior testing. I added the Poweradd battery to the mscaler. When I listened to HF off in the past the highs were sometimes too harsh.


----------



## F208Frank (Jun 27, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> I just tested the 3 default crossfeed settings in roon and they all sound muffled compared to using Dave crossfeed 3. Could be that Chord upsampling works best with unaltered original source. Chord crossfeed is applied at the end after upsampling.
> 
> Wouldn’t it be easier to just remove headphone adapter from the Dave to disengage crossfeed when using speakers?  If you have it set to 3 but no headphones plugged in or an adapter in the socket, crossfeed won’t be engaged in line out.


Cross feed is engaged even with adapter off if you unplug with crossfeed already set.

Example: adapter or headphone in, set to crossfeed 3, unplug adapter or headphone, crossfeed 3 settings still engaged for either external amp or speakers. There is conflicting info about this scattered around unfortunately.


----------



## iamoneagain

F208Frank said:


> Cross feed is engaged even with adapter off if you unplug with crossfeed already set.
> 
> Example: adapter or headphone in, set to crossfeed 3, unplug adapter or headphone, crossfeed 3 settings still engaged for either external amp or speakers. There is conflicting info about this scattered around unfortunately.



You’re right. Here’s old quote from Rob. 



Rob Watts said:


> Yes mia culpa; I had intended that crossfeed control would get disabled when not in headphone mode; but lots of people prefer the option to be there (I have once or twice found it useful myself with some speaker set-ups), so I decided to keep the mistake in place. But you need to remember to unset it though when going back to speakers.


----------



## Malcyg (Jun 27, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> Wouldn’t it be easier to just remove headphone adapter from the Dave to disengage crossfeed when using speakers?  If you have it set to 3 but no headphones plugged in or an adapter in the socket, crossfeed won’t be engaged in line out.



As you have just discovered, if you use crossfeed with phones, disconnect them and, at a later point, wish to use your speakers, crossfeed is still engaged but you cannot see the setting on the Dave screen and there is nothing at all to indicate that it is switched on - so you have to insert a headphone jack, check the setting, change as necessary and then remove the jack again. It is a slightly unsatisfactory arrangement and I think must have been a design oversight.

I do wonder how often people in a speaker based system may have been getting sub optimal performance from their Dave because they have no idea that crossfeed is on. How would you even know if you never use headphones direct into Dave?

So, going back to my original question, has anyone found any good results using Roon for XFeed?


----------



## GryphonGuy

Malcyg said:


> As you have just discovered, if you use crossfeed with phones, disconnect them and, at a later point, wish to use your speakers, crossfeed is still engaged but you cannot see the setting on the Dave screen and there is nothing at all to indicate that it is switched on - so you have to insert a headphone jack, check the setting, change as necessary and then remove the jack again. It is a slightly unsatisfactory arrangement and I think must have been a design oversight.
> 
> I do wonder how often people in a speaker based system may have been getting sub optimal performance from their Dave because they have no idea that crossfeed is on. How would you even know if you never use headphones direct into Dave?
> 
> So, going back to my original question, has anyone found any good results using Roon for XFeed?



It was simply a bug and at the time there was soooo much pressure on Chord to get DAVE released that I suspect they found the bug after manufacture and so decided to call it a feature when it is clearly a mistake.

Regards
GG


----------



## Ards

Good grief, I've been running with crossfeed (3) on my speakers all this time?!?!?!  Will be very interesting to get back to 0 and see what I think on the sound...


----------



## JaZZ

GryphonGuy said:


> It was simply a bug and at the time there was soooo much pressure on Chord to get DAVE released that I suspect they found the bug after manufacture and so decided to call it a feature when it is clearly a mistake.


It's actually a good mistake if you consider those who listen to electrostatic headphones or others which need external amplification.


----------



## Malcyg

JaZZ said:


> It's actually a good mistake if you consider those who listen to electrostatic headphones or others which need external amplification.



Not really. It should be visible and switchable in both modes.


----------



## JaZZ

Malcyg said:


> Not really. It should be visible and switchable in both modes.


It's certainly not ideal, but better than if it hadn't happened at all.


----------



## simorag (Jun 28, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> I just tested the 3 default crossfeed settings in roon and they all sound muffled compared to using Dave crossfeed 3.



Exactly, I tried several crossfeed implementations before getting the DAVE and all of them robbed way too much transparency, and that made me unwanting to try this DAVE feature for a while.
Then I tried it out of curiosity and now I am totally addicted to it, so much so that when I try other DACs the first thing I notice is that the soundstage is flatter and less cohesive (typical three-bulged imaging with left, right and center sound images somewhat disconnected).



iamoneagain said:


> Wouldn’t it be easier to just remove headphone adapter from the Dave to disengage crossfeed when using speakers? If you have it set to 3 but no headphones plugged in or an adapter in the socket, crossfeed won’t be engaged in line out.



As others has pointed out, I like that the xfeed can be used also with an external amplifier, as I am using one with my Abyss.
The confusing thing is that the xfeed setting is not shown in the display when you use the line out, which is prone to overlooking when you switch to loudspeakers.



Ards said:


> Good grief, I've been running with crossfeed (3) on my speakers all this time?!?!?! Will be very interesting to get back to 0 and see what I think on the sound...



I did the same mistake when using my LS3/5a initially and I was dumbfounded by the lack of their typical pinpoint imaging and transparency. Good for you that you have now discovered it, I bet once you put it to 0 and listen to your loudspeakers again it will be like having a new DAC, enjoy   !


----------



## TheAttorney

Malcyg said:


> So, going back to my original question, has anyone found any good results using Roon for XFeed?



I've tried Roon's cross-feed and didn't like it for the same reason I don't like any of Roon's DSP functions: a loss of transparency that results in a slight dulling/flattening of the sound. Some people notice this kind of thing and some don't. One plus of Roon's CF is that you get an infinite number of adjustments, but that's not much use to me if the fundamental SQ takes a hit.

Back to DAVE, I think CF gives more value as the headphone's soundstage increases (particularly in width). I'm not surprised that a Utopia owner prefers CF off, but with the wider soundstage of my HEK SE's, I find CF essential for most recordings. I still prefer CF=2 overall. A touch of bass boost does my HEK's no harm, but CF=3 tips the bass slightly too far and the overall sound a bit too smooth - even though it probably does give the most natural soundstage. Of course all this is heavily recording dependent: on some I like CF=1 and on some CF=0.

For those not convinced about CF, I think it's a mistake to keep comparing it to loudspeakers, or to keep A/Bing on vs off. CF on headphones doesn't sound like loudspeakers and it doesn't have to! Treat it on its own merits. I maintain that if you continually use CF for a longer period, say, starting with CF=1, so it becomes the new normal, then you'll realise how wrong CF off was all along.


----------



## F208Frank (Jun 28, 2020)

I have been floating around CF 2 and 3 with filter off on the DAVE. (Using tidal with most tracks at 44.1khz)


----------



## iamoneagain

So now that I know crossfeed sounds better with HF filter off, I’ll probably test level 1 and 2 and see if I like it.

Even with level 3 I can tell that it might be more natural than off but I’m so used to the headphone effect of music being in your face and hugging you. But at least now I’m open to the idea.

But as for as finding a roon setting that sounds as good as Dave’s, I don’t think it possible since it loses transparency. Think the Jan Meier’s setting sounded closer to Dave’s level 3. But then you can fine tune it to your liking.

If switching between external headphone amp and speakers, wouldn’t it make sense to leave headphone adapter in there so crossfeed settings show? Or would that cause issue with speakers or some other setting not to show?


----------



## iDesign (Jun 28, 2020)

TheAttorney said:


> I've tried Roon's cross-feed and didn't like it for the same reason I don't like any of Roon's DSP functions: a loss of transparency that results in a slight dulling/flattening of the sound. Some people notice this kind of thing and some don't. One plus of Roon's CF is that you get an infinite number of adjustments, but that's not much use to me if the fundamental SQ takes a hit.
> 
> Back to DAVE, I think CF gives more value as the headphone's soundstage increases (particularly in width). I'm not surprised that a Utopia owner prefers CF off, but with the wider soundstage of my HEK SE's, I find CF essential for most recordings. I still prefer CF=2 overall. A touch of bass boost does my HEK's no harm, but CF=3 tips the bass slightly too far and the overall sound a bit too smooth - even though it probably does give the most natural soundstage. Of course all this is heavily recording dependent: on some I like CF=1 and on some CF=0.
> 
> For those not convinced about CF, I think it's a mistake to keep comparing it to loudspeakers, or to keep A/Bing on vs off. CF on headphones doesn't sound like loudspeakers and it doesn't have to! Treat it on its own merits. I maintain that if you continually use CF for a longer period, say, starting with CF=1, so it becomes the new normal, then you'll realise how wrong CF off was all along.


I suspect individual preferences for the cross feed have more to do with our perception of sound and the music genre(s) than the headphone itself. For example, the Utopia has a small soundstage so based on your post activating the cross feed should help in that regard. But as @iamoneagain writes, he finds it more “engaging” with the cross feed off. And I’ll make a good bet that as a listener he also appreciates the nuances of the sound engineer’s L/R mix and you lose that with the cross feed. Thats one of the reasons I prefer it off.


----------



## JaZZ

iDesign said:


> ...and I’ll make a good bet that as a listener he also appreciates the nuances of the sound engineer’s L/R mix on a recording and you lose that with the crossfeed.


Except that what you lose with engaged crossfeed with your headphones you also lose with speakers without crossfeed (low-frequency channel separation), so this conjecture is illegitimate. What some might prefer, though, is the artificial widening of the soundstage at low frequencies through headphones during the reproduction of speaker-based recordings – and the sense of increased detail (true in some sense, although as mentioned it's artificial).


----------



## Malcyg (Jun 28, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> If switching between external headphone amp and speakers, wouldn’t it make sense to leave headphone adapter in there so crossfeed settings show? Or would that cause issue with speakers or some other setting not to show?



If you have anything plugged into the headphone jack, it disables all other outputs. That’s kind of the point of previous comments really.

I don’t find there is a universal setting for XFeed. It depends upon the music, which is another reason I was hoping Roon could be a quick, on the fly solution. Some music sounds better with it off whilst other music sounds better with it on and at different levels. As a very general rule, I find that the older the recording, the higher the level of crossfeed I might use.


----------



## iDesign

JaZZ said:


> Except that what you lose with engaged crossfeed with your headphones you also lose with speakers without crossfeed (low-frequency channel separation), so this conjecture is illegitimate. What some might prefer, though, is the artificial widening of the soundstage at low frequencies through headphones during the reproduction of speaker-based recordings – and the sense of increased detail (true in some sense, although as mentioned it's artificial).


You’re missing the point that it’s not just simply about sound stage.


----------



## iamoneagain

iDesign said:


> I suspect individual preferences for the cross feed have more to do with our perception of sound and the music genre(s) than the headphone itself. For example, the Utopia has a small soundstage so based on your post activating the cross feed should help in that regard. But as @iamoneagain writes, he finds it more “engaging” with the cross feed off. And I’ll make a good bet that as a listener he also appreciates the nuances of the sound engineer’s L/R mix and you lose that with the cross feed. Thats one of the reasons I prefer it off.



I feel like I lose the precision of the Utopia. Everything is so crystal clear with Crossfeed off. It’s more like you’re in the studio or at the front of the stage. And when I was younger that’s how I preferred my live shows. Go to small clubs and get right up against the stage.  I also grew up listening to headphones and most my music listening has been thru headphones. Never had a nice speaker setup and current living situation doesn’t allow for it spacewise or financially.


----------



## iamoneagain (Jun 28, 2020)

Malcyg said:


> If you have anything plugged into the headphone jack, it disables all other outputs. That’s kind of the point of previous comments really.
> 
> I don’t find there is a universal setting for XFeed. It depends upon the music, which is another reason I was hoping Roon could be a quick, on the fly solution. Some music sounds better with it off whilst other music sounds better with it on and at different levels. As a very general rule, I find that the older the recording, the higher the level of crossfeed I might use.



I guess the best you can do is just play around with the setting and then can save as different dsp presets. Looks like there’s a bunch of posting about Crossfeed in the roon forum. Haven’t gone then them so not sure if will offer any help.


----------



## JaZZ

iDesign said:


> You’re missing the point that it’s not just simply about sound stage.


I don't think so. You were talking of the missing nuances of the sound engineer’s L/R mix with crossfeed, and I say all you lose is the artificial component of these nuances, which would also get «lost» through speakers. BTW, the mentioned L/R mix (also called stereo effect) is one of the two most important components of soundstage.


----------



## JamieMcC

Crossfeed definitely not for me with my current phones hd800 (SDR Mod).


----------



## CRITICALSHOT (Jun 28, 2020)

Rob Watts said:
Normally it should be on.
But with Blu 2 it sounds better off.
Don't ask me why, as it is too complicated to explain; but in short it was lessons learned when the HF filter was improving the SQ with 44.1 kHz, when it should have had no change to the SQ.
Rob


----------



## PhenixS1970

Hi All, not in the market section yet but I'm letting go of my Chord Electronics Etude amplifier, black and in mint condition (purchased May, 21 2019).  EU buyers only. Feel free to drop me a message if you are interested in a DAVE - ETUDE wedding .


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I have to agree with Criticalshot (and others) that when using Blu MkII M Scaler and Dave together the sound is better with the HF Filter 'off'. Even for hi res files imo. The filter may sound warmer when 'on' but it affects dynamic speed and frequency band in the lower mids.  A simple test is to find a good vocal recording that places the vocalist in your room. With the HF filter set to off, the vocal sounds more dynamic, solid and natural in the lower mids. 

I have tested this with a good number of vocal recordings now and the result is consistent to my ears.


----------



## iamoneagain

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I have to agree with Criticalshot (and others) that when using Blu MkII M Scaler and Dave together the sound is better with the HF Filter 'off'. Even for hi res files imo. The filter may sound warmer when 'on' but it affects dynamic speed and frequency band in the lower mids.  A simple test is to find a good vocal recording that places the vocalist in your room. With the HF filter set to off, the vocal sounds more dynamic, solid and natural in the lower mids.
> 
> I have tested this with a good number of vocal recordings now and the result is consistent to my ears.



I’m now completely sold on having the filter off with mscaler with my current setup. Not finding any thinness or missing warmth. As said in prior post I’m powering the mscaler with Poweradd battery at 16v and this bring subtles change where no harshness to highs and fuller sound than stock power supply.  It really does sound like a veil is lifted when you turn the HF filter off. The highs now shimmer and sparkle where sound a little dull in direct comparison.  

Please aware using battery at 16v brings risk since recommended a 15v but has mscaler breaker at 18v and Poweradd pro 5 outputs very close to 16v when at that setting. If use 12v, music has less energy and highs seem less extended. Doesn’t sound as good as stock power supply.


----------



## ubs28

iamoneagain said:


> I feel like I lose the precision of the Utopia. Everything is so crystal clear with Crossfeed off. It’s more like you’re in the studio or at the front of the stage. And when I was younger that’s how I preferred my live shows. Go to small clubs and get right up against the stage.  I also grew up listening to headphones and most my music listening has been thru headphones. Never had a nice speaker setup and current living situation doesn’t allow for it spacewise or financially.



Some headphones do benefit from crossfeed, such as the AFC 2.


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## Triode User (Jun 30, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> I’m now completely sold on having the filter off with mscaler with my current setup. Not finding any thinness or missing warmth. As said in prior post I’m powering the mscaler with Poweradd battery at 16v and this bring subtles change where no harshness to highs and fuller sound than stock power supply.  It really does sound like a veil is lifted when you turn the HF filter off. The highs now shimmer and sparkle where sound a little dull in direct comparison.
> 
> Please aware using battery at 16v brings risk since recommended a 15v but has mscaler breaker at 18v and Poweradd pro 5 outputs very close to 16v when at that setting. If use 12v, music has less energy and highs seem less extended. Doesn’t sound as good as stock power supply.



I cannot quite come to terms with a preference for 16v compared to 12v feeding the Mscaler from the PowerAdd especially when it is accompanied with descriptive comments suggesting more energy and more extended highs with the higher voltage. The mscaler is only number crunching so the described sound attributes introduce the concept of added noise somehow, perhaps in the switching circuit for the higher voltage or perhaps the higher voltage gives the noise more energy and so the ensuing distortion is also greater and more audible? Just thinking aloud and musing rather than anything else.


----------



## iamoneagain (Jun 30, 2020)

Triode User said:


> I cannot quite come to terms with a preference for 16v compared to 12v feeding the Mscaler from the PowerAdd especially when it is accompanied with descriptive comments suggesting more energy and more extended highs with the higher voltage. The mscaler is only number crunching so the described sound attributes introduce the concept of added noise somehow, perhaps in the switching circuit for the higher voltage or perhaps the higher voltage gives the noise more energy and so the ensuing distortion is also greater and more audible? Just thinking aloud and musing rather than anything else.



So you think might be more noise?  I just tested again and there is a difference at 16v vs 12v. I’ll give 12v a longer listen with HF off. That does have the effect I’ve heard mentioned of darker sounding but might take some getting use to. Think I ended up preferring 16v since sounded closer to stock power supply and that was sound I was used to. Also dark sound with HF on was not to my liking.


----------



## Triode User

iamoneagain said:


> So you think might be more noise?  I just tested again and there is a difference at 16v vs 12v. I’ll give 12v a longer listen with HF off. That does have the effect I’ve heard mentioned of darker sounding but might take some getting use to. Think I ended up preferring 16v since sounded closer to stock power supply and that was sound I was used to. Also dark sound with HF on was not to my liking.



It is an easy trap to fall into of thinking that a sound has more 'life' or an 'enhanced sound stage' and that it is better when in reality it is just more noise artifacts that are being heard. With digital signals by and large the darker sound is always more accurate and truer to the music in the digital signal. My best power supply for the Mscaler can initially sound rather flat or lifeless compared to some others but after a while I realise that the other supplies just had more noise artifacts and there is more real detail when using the better power supply.

I may be wrong because there is a lot of YMMV in this but @Rob Watts continually says something similar to what I am saying regarding the perils of changing something and thinking that the change is better when all that one has really done is to add in more noise artifacts.


----------



## iamoneagain

Triode User said:


> It is an easy trap to fall into of thinking that a sound has more 'life' or an 'enhanced sound stage' and that it is better when in reality it is just more noise artifacts that are being heard. With digital signals by and large the darker sound is always more accurate and truer to the music in the digital signal. My best power supply for the Mscaler can initially sound rather flat or lifeless compared to some others but after a while I realise that the other supplies just had more noise artifacts and there is more real detail when using the better power supply.
> 
> I may be wrong because there is a lot of YMMV in this but @Rob Watts continually says something similar to what I am saying regarding the perils of changing something and thinking that the change is better when all that one has really done is to add in more noise artifacts.



Well so for I’m liking what I’m hearing. So currently settled on 12v Poweradd with HF off and no crossfeed. For some music, crossfeed 1 seems to sound better but need more time with it to make sure.


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## Triode User

iamoneagain said:


> Well so for I’m liking what I’m hearing. So currently settled on 12v Poweradd with HF off and no crossfeed. For some music, crossfeed 1 seems to sound better but need more time with it to make sure.



The next stage is to try dual stage regulation as suggested by @STR-1 between the PowerAdd and the Mscaler to clean up the supply a bit more . . . .


----------



## JamieMcC

Posts here of Dave direct to speakers I've always found intriguing having run a couple of flee watt system in the past using a 2watt sets amp (Bottlehead) and 6 watt class A solid state (Nelson Pass) the idea of going Dave direct did not sound to off the wall to me but  I'm sure for many it sounds a bit left field.

The two sets of speakers I've tried running direct from the Dave couldn't be more different floor standing Bastanis Mandalas @ 100db sensitivity (these consists of two 12" Bastanis free range crystal drivers (no crossover) with tweeter assist and a seperatly amped 15" sub per channel).

Secondly a bookshelf/stand mount Fonken design which uses a single 5" Fostex FX 120 free range driver @ 89db sensitivity.

To be fair I've only cobbled together a adapter out of odds and ends to hand while I'm waiting on some parts to solder up something more suitable for longer term use.

Initial results have been very impressive certainly both sets of speakers are capable of delivering quiet beguiling performances direct from the Dave within my small listening space 14'x15' room (the Bastanis are way to big for the room).

I've monitored the Dave's temperature with a inferred thermometer and temp has been very stable. Today for instance ambient temp is 21 C and the Dave has been sat stable  at 29 C for several hours.

For the most part I'm using the volume on the Dave in the -28dB to -20dB range. Venturing above -10dB is getting to uncomfortable levels for me with the Mandalas.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

JamieMcC said:


> Posts here of Dave direct to speakers I've always found intriguing having run a couple of flee watt system in the past using a 2watt sets amp (Bottlehead) and 6 watt class A solid state (Nelson Pass) the idea of going Dave direct did not sound to off the wall to me but  I'm sure for many it sounds a bit left field.
> 
> The two sets of speakers I've tried running direct from the Dave couldn't be more different floor standing Bastanis Mandalas @ 100db sensitivity (these consists of two 12" Bastanis free range crystal drivers (no crossover) with tweeter assist and a seperatly amped 15" sub per channel).
> 
> ...


The Audio Note AN-E/SPe HE Speakers work well straight from the Dave but I rather listen with the Audio Note OTO Phono SE Signature Tube Integrated Amplifier.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I have to agree with Criticalshot (and others) that when using Blu MkII M Scaler and Dave together the sound is better with the HF Filter 'off'. Even for hi res files imo. The filter may sound warmer when 'on' but it affects dynamic speed and frequency band in the lower mids.  A simple test is to find a good vocal recording that places the vocalist in your room. With the HF filter set to off, the vocal sounds more dynamic, solid and natural in the lower mids.
> 
> I have tested this with a good number of vocal recordings now and the result is consistent to my ears.



Further to the above post I have spent some extra time re-testing the HF filter with many of my 'Hi Res files' and whilst I can still hear the above mentioned affect in the dynamics noticeable in the lower mids, the filter is clearly having a positive almost analogue effect on Hi Res files also. I can hear why Rob included it. There is an SQ benefit and on reflection I could run with either 'on or off' for my Hi Res files, though still 'off' for Red Book. 

I wonder if the filter is affecting dynamics through a draw on power (or perhaps processing?). Not that it matters why. I just wanted to post again because I didn't wish to unfairly criticise the benefits of the fiter with Hi Res files. (That was its specific design goal after all.)


----------



## Malcyg

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Further to the above post I have spent some extra time re-testing the HF filter with many of my 'Hi Res files' and whilst I can still hear the above mentioned affect in the dynamics noticeable in the lower mids, the filter is clearly having a positive almost analogue effect on Hi Res files also. I can hear why Rob included it. There is an SQ benefit and on reflection I could run with either 'on or off' for my Hi Res files, though still 'off' for Red Book.
> 
> I wonder if the filter is affecting dynamics through a draw on power (or perhaps processing?). Not that it matters why. I just wanted to post again because I didn't wish to unfairly criticise the benefits of the fiter with Hi Res files. (That was its specific design goal after all.)



It’s all variable dependent upon the music, the ears and the equipment I think. Same as with Crossfeed, there is no single universal setting that is ‘correct‘ right across the board. Then of course, there is the small issue of personal preference! You wouldn’t want it to be easy would you? 😉

I have a Manley Absolute headphone amp which you can see in my ID photo. It allows for a lot of variation of things like the output impedance, amount of negative feedback, Push Pull or Single Ended tube operation, EQ in or out, SE or balanced headphone output for example. This allows for tuning the amp to your headphones which I have found makes a lot of difference and I have a better understanding now of why there can be such a variance in people’s reaction to different headphones, amps etc. I’ve come to realise that headphones are just as hard to get right as a speaker setup, maybe even harder in some respects. I have an old pair of HD800 which must be 10 years old now and had fallen into misuse, replaced by newer, ‘better’ models. Out of curiosity, I tried them with the Manley and on the balanced output, high impedance and tweaked to suit, they sound great.

One of the things that slightly irritates about forums is when people insist that theirs is the ‘correct’ position or the ‘best’ solution - there is no absolute best, just best suited to individual personal preference. And even, then, that preference can change based upon our mood and the particular music we are listening to. That’s the beauty and the frustration of it all. 

I’m sorry. That’s all a bit philosophical for this early in the morning, I think I’m going stir crazy with Lockdown fever!


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## thomaskong78 (Jul 1, 2020)

I use redbook CD stored in SSD of Cocktail Audio X30 to feed HMS and Dave.

With high filter off, it sounds slightly more detailed but somewhat thin.

I prefer to have it on with Stax 009s due to round tonality.

But HD 800s sounds better with filter off due to more spooky details.


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## GreenBow (Jul 1, 2020)

JamieMcC said:


> Posts here of Dave direct to speakers I've always found intriguing having run a couple of flee watt system in the past using a 2watt sets amp (Bottlehead) and 6 watt class A solid state (Nelson Pass) the idea of going Dave direct did not sound to off the wall to me but  I'm sure for many it sounds a bit left field.
> 
> The two sets of speakers I've tried running direct from the Dave couldn't be more different floor standing Bastanis Mandalas @ 100db sensitivity (these consists of two 12" Bastanis free range crystal drivers (no crossover) with tweeter assist and a seperatly amped 15" sub per channel).
> 
> ...



Am not sure if you mean you just very recently did this, but I think so.

If you are new to driving speakers from DAC, then here's a bit of advice. (If you have done this within the last day or two.) …..I think it takes about a week to adjust to the new performance. I run speakers directly from the TT2 and it was a full week before I heard it right. Until then I never really heard the music properly. To be honest, it just sounded bright.

By the end of the week though, it sounded full bodied and solid, perfect to be exact.

In all likelihood though it make take less time to adjust for you. My amp was not on a scale with my TT2, whereas your amp probably is with DAVE. My amp was left in place since the days when I was using Mojo then Hugo 2. Meaning a large scale change in transparency when the amplifier was not used.


----------



## iamoneagain

iamoneagain said:


> So you think might be more noise?  I just tested again and there is a difference at 16v vs 12v. I’ll give 12v a longer listen with HF off. That does have the effect I’ve heard mentioned of darker sounding but might take some getting use to. Think I ended up preferring 16v since sounded closer to stock power supply and that was sound I was used to. Also dark sound with HF on was not to my liking.



So I’ve gone back to 16v. Not sure what’s going on with 12v but music sounds dull. It’s not something I can get used to. 16v sounds perfect to me. At 16v is taking similar sound of stock power supply but it’s smoother, more liquid, natural sounding. Easier to follow bass lines and high have no harshness at all.

Voltage doesn’t much sense since Rob said it gets converted to 5v inside but others have said going higher than 12v improves sound.


----------



## STR-1

iamoneagain said:


> So I’ve gone back to 16v. Not sure what’s going on with 12v but music sounds dull. It’s not something I can get used to. 16v sounds perfect to me. At 16v is taking similar sound of stock power supply but it’s smoother, more liquid, natural sounding. Easier to follow bass lines and high have no harshness at all.
> 
> Voltage doesn’t much sense since Rob said it gets converted to 5v inside but others have said going higher than 12v improves sound.


I don’t know if this applies to the M Scaler but I have read more than once in this and other forums that more volts means less current meaning less noise, but I have also read that this does not apply to every device.

Interested by this latest discussion, I yesterday powered my M Scaler with 9v, 12v and 15v from my SR4T-19.  It sounded great on all three settings, but was a little more fleshed out, more ‘all there’ at 15v.


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## iamoneagain

So now I’ve gone full circle with the HF filter. I was strictly HF on for any file type and even with the mscaler. Then started playing with crossfeed and found HF off sounded better if crossfeed was on.

So then on quick listen thought HF off sounded better even with no crossfeed. But it’s misleading. You hear more detail and a veil lifted but then you lose texture and bass bloom that makes drums sound so real.  I noticed that when I left HF on I wanted to listen more and felt more connected to the music. It moved me. With it off, it seems technically better but not being pulled in by the rhythm. So I now see where quick back and forth comparisons don’t help. Need to listen to full tracks to get best idea of settings.


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## F208Frank

iamoneagain said:


> So now I’ve gone full circle with the HF filter. I was strictly HF on for any file type and even with the mscaler. Then started playing with crossfeed and found HF off sounded better if crossfeed was on.
> 
> So then on quick listen thought HF off sounded better even with no crossfeed. But it’s misleading. You hear more detail and a veil lifted but then you lose texture and bass bloom that makes drums sound so real.  I noticed that when I left HF on I wanted to listen more and felt more connected to the music. It moved me. With it off, it seems technically better but not being pulled in by the rhythm. So I now see where quick back and forth comparisons don’t help. Need to listen to full tracks to get best idea of settings.


So when you keep filter on, what do you set crossfeed at?

I have been on crossfeed 1 and off lately.


----------



## PhenixS1970

Chord Electronics Etude amplifier now available in the ‘for sale’ thread.


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## iamoneagain (Jul 3, 2020)

F208Frank said:


> So when you keep filter on, what do you set crossfeed at?
> 
> I have been on crossfeed 1 and off lately.



I’m still with no crossfeed. Even with setting 1 I feel slightly removed from the music. I like the feeling where the music starts in your head and moves outward from there creating the headspace. With crossfeed on the music starts in front of you so you don’t feel the bass the same way. This just a personal preference.


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## F208Frank

iamoneagain said:


> So now I’ve gone full circle with the HF filter. I was strictly HF on for any file type and even with the mscaler. Then started playing with crossfeed and found HF off sounded better if crossfeed was on.
> 
> So then on quick listen thought HF off sounded better even with no crossfeed. But it’s misleading. You hear more detail and a veil lifted but then you lose texture and bass bloom that makes drums sound so real.  I noticed that when I left HF on I wanted to listen more and felt more connected to the music. It moved me. With it off, it seems technically better but not being pulled in by the rhythm. So I now see where quick back and forth comparisons don’t help. Need to listen to full tracks to get best idea of settings.


I kept playing around with the settings and I ended up liking HF Filter Off with 0/1/2/3 cross feed over HF Filter ON with 0 Crossfeed. Everyone listens/hears/prefers different. Thanks for encouraging me to try for myself. For me I feel like I lost out on some details when using HF Filter On with the M Scaler and it bothered me too much.


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## iamoneagain

F208Frank said:


> I kept playing around with the settings and I ended up liking HF Filter Off with 0/1/2/3 cross feed over HF Filter ON with 0 Crossfeed. Everyone listens/hears/prefers different. Thanks for encouraging me to try for myself. For me I feel like I lost out on some details when using HF Filter On with the M Scaler and it bothered me too much.



Yes I get that too but when I took a step back and just listened to the music without analyzing and comparing, I found I was enjoying the overall balance and weight more with HF on. But if directly comparing, with HF off, there is more detail in the highs but the sound is a little thinner.  It sounds better right away but loses something with longer listening but this is all headphone dependent too.


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## bluecar

iamoneagain said:


> Yes I get that too but when I took a step back and just listened to the music without analyzing and comparing, I found I was enjoying the overall balance and weight more with HF on. But if directly comparing, with HF off, there is more detail in the highs but the sound is a little thinner.  It sounds better right away but loses something with longer listening but this is all headphone dependent too.


I went with the 'official' Watts advice, which was to leave Hi-Fil On, unless using the M-Scaler. It's a definite Off with the scaler for me


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## iamoneagain (Jul 4, 2020)

bluecar said:


> I went with the 'official' Watts advice, which was to leave Hi-Fil On, unless using the M-Scaler. It's a definite Off with the scaler for me



So when I was advised to use the Poweradd battery at 12v, I had the HF filter on and it was too dark. I never tried 12v with the HF filter off at the time. Now comparing 16v with HF on vs 12v and HF off, I choose off. It’s the right balance of weight with a touch more detail.  But as mentioned, it’s hard to compare since brighter sounds better at first.  So it sounds like I’m contradicting myself, but I’m now doing longer listening sessions to determine best settings.  And this is using Utopia’s, so someone with warmer headphones might have different results.


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## NeoDiNardo (Jul 5, 2020)

I have a Chord Hugo TT2 on order but I’m going to try and upgrade that order to a Chord Dave. Alas, the Dave review envy finally won me over. I also have on order Focal Stellia headphones which I think the Dave can comfortably drive.

My research shows that while the TT2 has a far more powerful and desirable headphone amplifier, M Scaler or no M Scaler, the Dave is still the better DAC. I can always pair the Dave with a more powerful headphone amp. And I can always upgrade the Dave with the M Scaler as well. But I don’t believe the math of a TT2 + a M Scaler = a Chord Dave. I can get behind the math of a Dave + a M Scaler + a slightly warm high-end  headphone amplifier = possible DAC headphone amplifier heaven.


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## bluecar

NeoDiNardo said:


> I have a Chord Hugo TT2 on order but I’m going to try and upgrade that order to a Chord Dave. Alas, the Dave review envy finally won me over. I also have on order Focal Stellia headphones which I think the Dave can comfortably drive.
> 
> My research shows that while the TT2 has a far more powerful and desirable headphone amplifier, M Scaler or no M Scaler, the Dave is still the better DAC. I can always pair the Dave with a more powerful headphone amp. And I can always upgrade the Dave with the M Scaler as well. But I don’t believe the math of a TT2 + a M Scaler = a Chord Dave. I can get behind the math of a Dave + a M Scaler + a slightly warm high-end  headphone amplifier = possible DAC headphone amplifier heaven.



I went for the HPA4 for amp duty with the DAVE - not regretting the choice - the HPA is unobtrusive and that suits me just fine, as I like the fundamental sound of the DAVE. For me, that made more of a hit that getting the m-scaler first. It's good to have something to save for


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## NeoDiNardo (Jul 5, 2020)

bluecar said:


> I went for the HPA4 for amp duty with the DAVE - not regretting the choice - the HPA is unobtrusive and that suits me just fine, as I like the fundamental sound of the DAVE. For me, that made more of a hit that getting the m-scaler first. It's good to have something to save for



I looked up the Benchmark HPA4, it looks very nice. In the past, I had thought that model was a DAC headphone amplifier, now I see now it’s all analog XLR offering.


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## Malcyg (Jul 5, 2020)

NeoDiNardo said:


> I have a Chord Hugo TT2 on order but I’m going to try and upgrade that order to a Chord Dave. Alas, the Dave review envy finally won me over. I also have on order Focal Stellia headphones which I think the Dave can comfortably drive.
> 
> My research shows that while the TT2 has a far more powerful and desirable headphone amplifier, M Scaler or no M Scaler, the Dave is still the better DAC. I can always pair the Dave with a more powerful headphone amp. And I can always upgrade the Dave with the M Scaler as well. But I don’t believe the math of a TT2 + a M Scaler = a Chord Dave. I can get behind the math of a Dave + a M Scaler + a slightly warm high-end  headphone amplifier = possible DAC headphone amplifier heaven.



I think you will not be disappointed by that decision. And you may find that you don’t need a headphone amp with the Stellia. I find that Dave can drive my Utopia’s perfectly well without any extra assistance.

I have recently been reminded of just how good a stand-alone Dave is. When I got Dave - getting on for 5 years ago now - I remember how delighted I was with how it sounded. I had upgraded from a Chord DSX1000 which itself had been a remarkable step up from what had gone before, but Dave was simply transformative in my main system. I then got the Blu II when it came out and a few of us on here, recognising the huge potential of this pairing, set out in pursuit of maximising our system around it.

I ended up changing everything else apart from my amp - including my speakers and headphones. The main thing about the BluDave pairing was that it opened the windows so wide, it was clear to see shortcomings elsewhere in your system, especially in the whole digital front end that fed into the BluDave. The CD player in the Blu II was instrumental in this since comparisons were easy and clear to hear the differences.

Last week, I tore my rack down and reconstructed it and whilst rebuilding it, it struck me that I had never actually heard Dave alone in my current set up. So I left it set up with Dave alone for a couple of days and was amazed all over again at how good it sounded. I found myself thinking that I could definitely live with this and wondering whether I actually needed the Blu II in my system. Yesterday,  I put Blu II back in the system and whilst I am happier with the sound, I still think that I could live with Dave alone - maybe.....🤔


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## iamoneagain

NeoDiNardo said:


> I have a Chord Hugo TT2 on order but I’m going to try and upgrade that order to a Chord Dave. Alas, the Dave review envy finally won me over. I also have on order Focal Stellia headphones which I think the Dave can comfortably drive.
> 
> My research shows that while the TT2 has a far more powerful and desirable headphone amplifier, M Scaler or no M Scaler, the Dave is still the better DAC. I can always pair the Dave with a more powerful headphone amp. And I can always upgrade the Dave with the M Scaler as well. But I don’t believe the math of a TT2 + a M Scaler = a Chord Dave. I can get behind the math of a Dave + a M Scaler + a slightly warm high-end  headphone amplifier = possible DAC headphone amplifier heaven.



It’s not recommended to get a separate amp if don’t have demanding headphones since lose transparency. However, this comment is also made about the Hugo 2 and that should have been powerful enough to drive the Utopia’s but the Dave was huge upgrade in terms the fullness and power it offers. The Stella is even more efficient than the Utopia’s.


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## CRITICALSHOT (Jul 5, 2020)

Rob Watts said:


> The DSD filtering is much more complex that with Hugo, simply because I have more space on the FPGA. There is almost no limit to how much filtering you need to do to remove the HF distortion and noise that the DSD noise shaper generates. Out of band noise creates intermodulation distortion with analogue electronics, if the noise is random then the distortion is random, so you then get noise floor modulation. The brain is very sensitive to noise floor modulation, and perceives it as a brightness to the sound, so reducing it makes it sound smoother and darker. There is virtually no limit to how small noise floor modulation needs to be, so any trace of HF and RF noise is audible.
> 
> Just to give you an idea how sensitive RF/HF noise is, I have a HF filter option with Dave. This is a 60 kHz filter, and is used to remove the ADC noise shaper noise from 192k, DXD and 384k recordings. Now with DXD recordings it works a treat, its much smoother and darker. But oddly, you can hear the benefit with 44.1k - even CD sounds smoother. Now that was very unexpected, as the WTA filter has at worst 120 dB of filtering, and typically (for music sources) is 140dB. So HF noise is below -140 dB for CD, but an extra stage of filtering gives a subjective benefit - and its down to the reduction of HF/RF noise. Just to illustrate the problem DSD64 is -20dB down at 100kHz.
> 
> ...


https://goldmund.com/does-high-resolution-audio-sound-better/

With my previous two channel system (Dave/MS) I always had the HF Filter off.  With my new SET Integrated it sounds best with the HF Filter on.  I can venture to explain it; but if you read the link, plus what Rob said and do some research you can come to your own conclusion.  If you don't want to be technical, choose what sounds best to you.


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## Triode User

CRITICALSHOT said:


> https://goldmund.com/does-high-resolution-audio-sound-better/
> 
> With my previous two channel system (Dave/MS) I always had the HF Filter off.  With my new SET Integrated it sounds best with the HF Filter on.  I can venture to explain it; but if you read the link, plus what Rob said and do some research you can come to your own conclusion.  If you don't want to be technical, choose what sounds best to you.



And this post from RW way back in 2015 explains the nature of the the HF filter and why it was incorporated in the Dave.



Rob Watts said:


> The HF filter is a sharp cutoff filter set to 60 kHz. The intention was to bandwidth limit high sample rate recordings - DXD and 384k have huge amounts of noise shaper noise from the ADC. This noise will degrade SQ by increasing noise floor modulation as the out of band noise creates intermodulation distortion with the wanted audio signal in the analogue electronics.
> 
> Now it works very well, in using it makes it sound smoother and darker - exactly what you get from lower noise floor modulation. But the curious thing is that it also sounds better with 44.1 k - curious because the WTA filter typically has a stop band attenuation of 140 dB (worst case 120 dB). So out of band noise is very low with 44.1 k and I was not expecting a SQ change with the filter with CD. The filter is not something added, its just a different set of coefficients for the 16 FS to 256 FS WTA filter.
> 
> ...


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## NeoDiNardo (Jul 5, 2020)

I officially upgraded my Chord DAC order, the Dave is on the way. Hooray!! Five years of Head-Fi and internet hype, thousands of dollars, it better be mind blowing!! My Focal Stellia is ready.


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## CRITICALSHOT

NeoDiNardo said:


> I officially upgraded my Chord DAC order, the Dave is on the way. Hooray!! Five years of Head-Fi and internet hype, thousands of dollars, it better be mind blowing!! My Focal Stellia is ready.


You should of got a Mojo it's more organic.


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## iamoneagain (Jul 5, 2020)

So think I’m done playing around with settings. I finally settled on Poweradd at 16v for the mscaler with HF on. The longer I listened at 12v the more dull it started to sound. I tired to convince myself this is how the music should sound, very dark, but it’s not for me. So now can go back to just listening again.


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## NeoDiNardo (Jul 6, 2020)

After much internal debate, I decided to back out of my Chord Dave purchase after all. What can I say, the Dave is just too rich for my blood. And for various reasons partly including price, the Chord Hugo TT2 is not what I’m after anymore either. I know this is not what Chord believes people want, but I’d rather Chord just maximize my dollars and simply make a nicer DAC only product. I could probably afford that much easier and I would be happier.

The Qutest is OK, but it lacks XLR out, it’s powered by a fragile Micro USB port, and I’d prefer a higher FPGA taps count. Whereas the TT2 has all that, but also adds all these other functions, and then is a bit too expensive to use as just a DAC. With the TT2, I feel that you have to like everything about it for that price to make sense. And there are things about it I don’t like as much as the DAC section. For better or worse, I’d much rather pick out my own headphone amplifier and preamplifier or integrated amplifier. And the Dave just makes my wallet cry, it’s far too pricy for me.

In the future, I would prefer Chord make something like a DAC only $3,000 Chord Qutest 2 with 100,000 taps, XLR out, and a high quality power supply (a quality built in PSU, a custom barrel plug for a quality external PSU, or a nice USB-C implementation, USB mini / micro is just the worst). Then have an optional matching $2,000 Chord Qutest M Scaler with half a million taps. For $5,000 total you could have a giant killer. Do that Chord and you have my money.

As it is, Chord’s solitary DAC only option is the Chord Qutest, with the Chord M Scaler as an optional upgrade. It’s an interesting if oddly mixed-matched upgrade path. For now, I think I’ll do something else that is a bit different and cheaper, like a nice separate DAC into a powerful headphone amplifier perhaps. It may not sound as good as a Chord DAC, but the budget and setup will be more to my liking. Otherwise, sorry Chord, but I will keep a hawkeye on your future products.


----------



## hmartin

NeoDiNardo said:


> After much internal debate, I decided to back out of my Chord Dave purchase after all. What can I say, the Dave is just too rich for my blood. And for various reasons partly including price, the Chord Hugo TT2 is not what I’m after anymore either. I know this is not what Chord believes people want, but I’d rather Chord just maximize my dollars and simply make a nicer DAC only product. I could probably afford that much easier an.....
> 
> ...liking. Otherwise, sorry Chord, but I will keep a hawkeye on your future products.



Your thinking is very similar to mine before getting the chord dac. But I think Chord is maximizing the value because the quality of the direct connection to either a power amp or headphones. Hence saving money and giving higher quality. Only cases that is problematic is if you need a preamp for analogue source eg vinyl / tape or electrostatic headphones. But to my ears qutest is amazing value, would have no problem living with qutest especially with msc. For short cables I think unbalanced is fine ...


----------



## iamoneagain (Jul 6, 2020)

NeoDiNardo said:


> After much internal debate, I decided to back out of my Chord Dave purchase after all. What can I say, the Dave is just too rich for my blood. And for various reasons partly including price, the Chord Hugo TT2 is not what I’m after anymore either. I know this is not what Chord believes people want, but I’d rather Chord just maximize my dollars and simply make a nicer DAC only product. I could probably afford that much easier and I would be happier.
> 
> The Qutest is OK, but it lacks XLR out, it’s powered by a fragile Micro USB port, and I’d prefer a higher FPGA taps count. Whereas the TT2 has all that, but also adds all these other functions, and then is a bit too expensive to use as just a DAC. With the TT2, I feel that you have to like everything about it for that price to make sense. And there are things about it I don’t like as much as the DAC section. For better or worse, I’d much rather pick out my own headphone amplifier and preamplifier or integrated amplifier. And the Dave just makes my wallet cry, it’s far too pricy for me.
> 
> ...



Were you planning on using hard to drive headphones or only the Focal Stellia? With the Dave or TT2, you wouldn’t need a separate amp and the headphone jack is basically a direct connection to the Dac, so get the most transparent sound. The mscaler and all the fancy cables are not needed.

The Dave sounds amazing on its own. The mscaler will bring it up another level but could easily live with just the Dave alone since it’s so enjoyable.  I was able to find a used one under $6500, which is great value since I didn’t need to buy separate amp and end up with end game setup. But I’m sure there are other options out there for less that people love.


----------



## GreenBow

NeoDiNardo said:


> After much internal debate, I decided to back out of my Chord Dave purchase after all. What can I say, the Dave is just too rich for my blood. And for various reasons partly including price, the Chord Hugo TT2 is not what I’m after anymore either. I know this is not what Chord believes people want, but I’d rather Chord just maximize my dollars and simply make a nicer DAC only product. I could probably afford that much easier and I would be happier.
> 
> The Qutest is OK, but it lacks XLR out, it’s powered by a fragile Micro USB port, and I’d prefer a higher FPGA taps count. Whereas the TT2 has all that, but also adds all these other functions, and then is a bit too expensive to use as just a DAC. With the TT2, I feel that you have to like everything about it for that price to make sense. And there are things about it I don’t like as much as the DAC section. For better or worse, I’d much rather pick out my own headphone amplifier and preamplifier or integrated amplifier. And the Dave just makes my wallet cry, it’s far too pricy for me.
> 
> ...



Yeah but a 100,000 tap Qutest is the TT2. Since the TT2 has supercaps, the SMPS is more than good enough. With TT2 you will never need a headphone amp cost. It depends on your budget, but your reasoning is ultimately leading you to the TT2.

Chord M-Scaler with half taps is unlikely, but not impossible I suppose. The reason to paraphrase Rob Watts loosely. At 500,000 taps, the M-Scaler is good, but the real magic happens at 1,000,000 taps.


----------



## NeoDiNardo

GreenBow said:


> Yeah but a 100,000 tap Qutest is the TT2. Since the TT2 has supercaps, the SMPS is more than good enough. With TT2 you will never need a headphone amp cost. It depends on your budget, but your reasoning is ultimately leading you to the TT2.
> 
> Chord M-Scaler with half taps is unlikely, but not impossible I suppose. The reason to paraphrase Rob Watts loosely. At 500,000 taps, the M-Scaler is good, but the real magic happens at 1,000,000 taps.



I have thought about reordering the Chord Hugo TT2, but perhaps later on, I need to catch my breath financially and think about my options. I may be happier with a Chord Qutest, a Chord M Scaler, and a Pass Labs HPA-1 combo for example. In that scenario the M Scaler is purchased much later on. Or I could do a Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 and later on order a Luxman P-750U.

It’s not just the price of the TT2 that gives me pause. For one, I’m not fully sold on the controls and ease of use on the TT2. I don’t want to spin a colorful ball, I want a sexy feeling volume knob! I want my ports flush and my connections super flat. I want easy, intuitive, and direct controls. When I read that it’s easier to use the direct controls on the cheaper remote then it is to navigate the shiny controls on the unit itself, it breaks my heart. And seemingly the 1/8th audio plug is too awkwardly designed to be of any use. At the price of the TT2 I don’t want to have these admittedly minor issues.

At least with the Qutest, the price is such that I could just keep upgrading the the latest version of the Qutest as time marches on. It’s a nice flexibility vs a big TT2 purchase. Whatever audio synergy I lose by doing a separate headphone amp I feel I gain in having unlimited choices. You never know, I might just find a headphone amplifier I like better.

And it’s good to know that the M Scaler magic happens at a million taps per Rob Watts, now there’s no reason to wait for a cheaper version to come out.


----------



## NeoDiNardo

iamoneagain said:


> Were you planning on using hard to drive headphones or only the Focal Stellia? With the Dave or TT2, you wouldn’t need a separate amp and the headphone jack is basically a direct connection to the Dac, so get the most transparent sound. The mscaler and all the fancy cables are not needed.
> 
> The Dave sounds amazing on its own. The mscaler will bring it up another level but could easily live with just the Dave alone since it’s so enjoyable.  I was able to find a used one under $6500, which is great value since I didn’t need to buy separate amp and end up with end game setup. But I’m sure there are other options out there for less that people love.



I was thinking that at one point I’d grab a nice planar magnetic headphone which may need some extra power to fully drive. I like the idea of extra headroom for better control and sound and I don’t want to feel limited. From the reviews I feel the TT2 has enough juice but the Dave could use a bit more power.


----------



## NeoDiNardo

hmartin said:


> Your thinking is very similar to mine before getting the chord dac. But I think Chord is maximizing the value because the quality of the direct connection to either a power amp or headphones. Hence saving money and giving higher quality. Only cases that is problematic is if you need a preamp for analogue source eg vinyl / tape or electrostatic headphones. But to my ears qutest is amazing value, would have no problem living with qutest especially with msc. For short cables I think unbalanced is fine ...



Thanks for the insight on the Chord Qutest, I may just order one of those up.


----------



## muski

GreenBow said:


> Yeah but a 100,000 tap Qutest is the TT2. Since the TT2 has supercaps, the SMPS is more than good enough. With TT2 you will never need a headphone amp cost. It depends on your budget, but your reasoning is ultimately leading you to the TT2.
> 
> Chord M-Scaler with half taps is unlikely, but not impossible I suppose. The reason to paraphrase Rob Watts loosely. At 500,000 taps, the M-Scaler is good, but the real magic happens at 1,000,000 taps.


Very interesting idea. Take a little further in taps and cost and it'd be like a DAVE without a headphone stage. Qutest DAVE?


----------



## MacedonianHero

muski said:


> Very interesting idea. Take a little further in taps and cost and it'd be like a DAVE without a headphone stage. Qutest DAVE?



The DAVE doesn't have a separate headphone stage...that's part of it's magic and uber low distortion.


----------



## NeoDiNardo

Perhaps when the Dave 2.0 comes I’ll have Dave dollars in my wallet.


----------



## F208Frank

It definitely is one damn expensive device, that is for sure.


----------



## NeoDiNardo (Jul 6, 2020)

You have no idea the relief I felt when the Dave order was refunded. It was like I bought a Porsche on a Subaru WRX budget and then the dealer took it back.

I used to be happy with components that only cost about $900 for a NAD Integrated Amplifier, $1000 for a flagship Denon CD / DVD Player, and $3000 for a pair of B&W 700 Series Speakers. Add $100 for cables and that’s a complete $5,000 system. One time I purchased a Sony Mini-Disc Recorder Deck for a mere $500. And that thing was awesome!! Now, if $5,000 covers a single audio item that I covet I feel lucky.


----------



## ClicketEKlack

NeoDiNardo said:


> You have no idea the relief I felt when the Dave order was refunded. It was like I bought a Porsche on a Subaru WRX budget and then the dealer took it back.
> 
> I used to be happy with components that only cost about $900 for a NAD Integrated Amplifier, $1000 for a flagship Denon CD / DVD Player, and $3000 for a pair of B&W 700 Series Speakers. Add $100 for cables and that’s a complete $5,000 system. One time I purchased a Sony Mini-Disc Recorder Deck for a mere $500. And that thing was awesome!! Now, if $5,000 covers a single audio item that I covet I feel lucky.



I hear you completely. I was contemplating a used DAVE, but given that we’re heading into a new Great Depression, I started to think bang for buck might be the path for me. Ordered a Topping D90/A90 stack and will call it a day until either I bank more money or the price of a used Dave falls a couple of K. Someday...


----------



## endre83

The only question is, how the value stable your purchase is and if you can afford loss in liquidity only. Buying used selling later with pp fees and a small loss is not a big issue. I was contemplating a DCS Bartok or DAVE , finding a good deal, not loosing too much money when I need to sell quickly: Luxury products keep value in depression aswell.

Now I am facing an other risk: Damage by my  9 month ols son  OMG wracking the value of a used car on my desk in a weak moment of unawareness -.- Time to rethink


----------



## GreenBow (Jul 7, 2020)

NeoDiNardo said:


> I have thought about reordering the Chord Hugo TT2, but perhaps later on, I need to catch my breath financially and think about my options. I may be happier with a Chord Qutest, a Chord M Scaler, and a Pass Labs HPA-1 combo for example. In that scenario the M Scaler is purchased much later on. Or I could do a Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 and later on order a Luxman P-750U.
> 
> It’s not just the price of the TT2 that gives me pause. For one, I’m not fully sold on the controls and ease of use on the TT2. I don’t want to spin a colorful ball, I want a sexy feeling volume knob! I want my ports flush and my connections super flat. I want easy, intuitive, and direct controls. When I read that it’s easier to use the direct controls on the cheaper remote then it is to navigate the shiny controls on the unit itself, it breaks my heart. And seemingly the 1/8th audio plug is too awkwardly designed to be of any use. At the price of the TT2 I don’t want to have these admittedly minor issues.
> 
> ...



Am not trying to persuade you in any direction.

However the controls for the TT2 are not bad in any way. One button cycles through input select. One button powers on-off. The last button opens a menu - and I guess that is where any grumble may be. Personally I find it very easy to navigate. However it's even easier with the remote. You're left with choices like filter type, X-PHD, light dimming,  to control via menu, or remote control. (I personally managed all that first time with no help, or referring to manual.) None of those menu options get used very often either, leaving no real ergonomic issue. It's eventually like set by remote and forget.

I do understand your feelings to a point. Sometimes I wish Chord volume controls were regular wheels or knobs to turn. I seem to recall when folk were discussing hopes for a Mojo TT, they wanted regular volume control. Am not biased either way.

TT2 volume control is never an issue though. If I am sat back I control volume via remote anyway. Either listening to TT2 driving speakers. (Remember that the TT2 is good enough to drive speakers.) Or if I am listening via headphones sat back, again it's remote operation. When I am sat near to TT2, it's natural to use the volume orb.


----------



## JamieMcC (Jul 7, 2020)

Trying out something a little different today and hav made up some custom cables to run Dave direct to my speakers using Duelund gold platted  UP-OCC copper RCA plugs and Duelund 16GA tin platted copper multistrand in a oiled cotton sleeve. It's a combination I've been wanting to try for a while.

Nice result and definitely a easily noticeable improvement over the cobbled together affaire I was previously using.


----------



## STR-1

@Rob Watts - Hi Rob, what are your thoughts on how vibration control with headphone-only systems might further elevate the performance of DAVE and/or M Scaler?

This is not something I have previously looked much into, being satisfied so far with my thick bamboo shelf Atacama equipment rack, but I am wondering if in the absence of significant structure-borne vibration there is more I can be doing to help drain away some of the devices’ small internal vibrations.  Do the fitted feet help facilitate this, or are they more for decoupling from external vibrations?  Thanks in advance for your thoughts.


----------



## SuperBurrito

ClicketEKlack said:


> I hear you completely. I was contemplating a used DAVE, but given that we’re heading into a new Great Depression, I started to think bang for buck might be the path for me. Ordered a Topping D90/A90 stack and will call it a day until either I bank more money or the price of a used Dave falls a couple of K. Someday...



Exactly - Dave will be around for a very, very long time on the used market, and prices will get cheaper.  You can always wait and buy in the future at some point.


----------



## Hooster

NeoDiNardo said:


> For now, I think I’ll do something else that is a bit different and cheaper, like a nice separate DAC into a powerful headphone amplifier perhaps. It may not sound as good as a Chord DAC, but the budget and setup will be more to my liking. Otherwise, sorry Chord, but I will keep a hawkeye on your future products.



Many thanks for your contribution. While I like Chord products in a sense, I have owned a Mojo, I can't get over the price, styling, etc.. I am certainly keeping an eye on any future products but a great deal will have to change before I buy anything from Chord.


----------



## F208Frank (Jul 9, 2020)

Random Note/Reference for Others Despite It Being Common Knowledge:

I went Abyss TC1266 direct into DAVE for the past month after removing an external amp from the chain and felt that the DAVE ran the Abyss pretty decently.

As time went on, it became clear that the "No External AMP DAVE" with Abyss is not enough. This was especially noticeable after adding back the external amp in the chain.

It was quite fun to experience/witness the differences over a longer period of time rather than to do the sloppy quick A/B that's often used.

This post is common knowledge yes, but despite "No External AMP DAVE" with Abyss sounding decent, do not kid yourself in that the power from DAVE is enough.

I wanted to make this post because a few members have found that the DAVE itself powering the Abyss being acceptable, except that we forgot to define acceptable.

Though decent for sure from DAVE direct, the external amp reminds you why the Abyss is the Abyss.


----------



## jlbrach

I thought it acceptable as well initially but in truth in order for the 1266 TC to really perform as it can it needs an external amp


----------



## F208Frank (Jul 10, 2020)

jlbrach said:


> I thought it acceptable as well initially but in truth in order for the 1266 TC to really perform as it can it needs an external amp


Amen.


----------



## JTbbb

Hello, 

I know a number of people here are running a two channel system with Dave, and also some of our TT2 brethren, but what I would like to know is, has anyone inserted a Pre-Amp between DAC and power amp?

Reading the hifi press it would seem adding a good Pre-Amp can have quite a positive effect on SQ, has anyone experienced this? I can’t help but think it is just putting another box of electronics in the signal path.

Thanks


----------



## Triode User (Jul 10, 2020)

JTbbb said:


> Hello,
> 
> I know a number of people here are running a two channel system with Dave, and also some of our TT2 brethren, but what I would like to know is, has anyone inserted a Pre-Amp between DAC and power amp?
> 
> ...



I am a two channel speaker user and over a few years or owning a Dave I have come to the conclusion that the best sound quality is to take Dave direct into the power amp for the maximum transparency. Adding a pre amp only seems to act like a tone control with a resulting loss of quality.

The only exception in my experience is that if the power amp is a valve (tube) amp then, and only then, there is an advantage in using either an active pre amp or a Music First TVC or similar. Somehow Dave direct into a valve power amp results in a woolly bass and indistinct midrange, IMHO of course.


----------



## F208Frank

Triode User said:


> I am a two channel speaker user and over a few years or owning a Dave I have come to the conclusion that the best sound quality is to take Dave direct into the power amp for the maximum transparency. Adding a pre amp only seems to act like a tone control with a resulting loss of quality.
> 
> The only exception in my experience is that if the power amp is a valve (tube) amp then, and only then, there is an advantage in using either an active pre amp or a Music First TVC or similar. Somehow Dave direct into a valve power amp results in a woolly bass and indistinct midrange, IMHO of course.


Do you think your results with the Dave to direct amp is due to the DAVE having a good pre amp or in a general sense not having a pre amp in all systems being better as it would only act as a tone control?

DAVE specific or in general specific? 

Thanks in advance, was always curious about this myself.


----------



## audio_1

F208Frank said:


> Do you think your results with the Dave to direct amp is due to the DAVE having a good pre amp or in a general sense not having a pre amp in all systems being better as it would only act as a tone control?
> 
> DAVE specific or in general specific?
> 
> Thanks in advance, was always curious about this myself.


The reason imho is because Dave has a transparent digital volume control that doesn't affect dynamics when listening at low levels. An additional pre amp, even a good one adds a lot of components to the signal path, analogue interconnects, input buffers, volume control, gain stage, more power supplies, etc. Eliminating an analogue pre-amp also saves a lot of money. 
This is with Dave, some DACs have analogue volume controls (MSB for example), or digital volume controls that affect dynamics (dCS) unless the output voltage is adjusted to match the power amp gain.


----------



## llamaluv (Jul 10, 2020)

F208Frank said:


> This post is common knowledge yes, but despite "No External AMP DAVE" with Abyss sounding decent, do not kid yourself in that the power from DAVE is enough.



Strongly agree with this. Recently, I listened to the Utopia/DAVE headphone-out combo for a couple days straight (which I like very much nowadays), then listened to the Abyss TC out of the DAVE for a couple minutes, and ... the soundstage made me feel like I was listening to the Utopia. Then, plugged the TC back into an external amp like I normally would, and all was well again.



JTbbb said:


> I know a number of people here are running a two channel system with Dave, and also some of our TT2 brethren, but what I would like to know is, has anyone inserted a Pre-Amp between DAC and power amp?



I did this as a test not too long ago, though with headphones, not speakers:

Two amps I use with the Abyss TC are a Benchmark HPA4 headphone amp and a Pass Labs X150.8 power amp. When using the X150.8, I use the DAVE as the "preamp". However, the HPA4 is designed for use as a preamp as much as a headphone amp, so I tried: DAVE in "DAC mode" to HPA4 in "preamp mode" to X150.8 to the Abyss TC.

And... it made the X150.8 take on the character of the HPA4, lol. The X150.8 is relatively warm, more tonally dense, and somewhat "analog-like"; the HPA4 is on the cool side, with an emphasis on transients though with a "lighter touch", and has lots of soundstage width. And I heard all those characteristics of the HPA4 coming through the X150.8, and felt like they were the dominant characteristics of the resulting sound. It didn't sound less transparent than the X150.8 by itself I didn't feel like, though maybe a shade less transparent than the HPA4 by itself, hard to say.

So it was an interesting test, though with these specific pieces of equipment, if I wanted the HPA4 sound I'd just use the HPA4 directly, since it's a headphone amp and I'm just using headphones. I'm not sure if there's a broader generalization to be made from what I just described except to say that a preamp can definitely change the sound signature, and in some cases, even with the possibility of using the DAVE as the volume control at hand, I could see that having a place.


----------



## JTbbb

Thanks guys for the responses, most helpful. Funnily enough it was the HPA4 that was getting my interest. I’ve also just found out that my local dealer can supply Benchmark, and that he has recently supplied one. So I might just get the chance sometime in the future to demo one.


----------



## JTbbb

I was speaking to my local dealer earlier and this is what he says:-

“In some instances, the inclusion of an analogue pre-amp can help overcome issues with any volume controls that operate in the digital domain.”

So it seems that it could boil down to how effective the design is of a digital volume control, and my guess would be that Dave has a very good one!

The only other consideration is if people have analogue equipment they would like to use, as Dave has no analogue inputs.


----------



## Deano1974

JTbbb said:


> Hello,
> 
> I know a number of people here are running a two channel system with Dave, and also some of our TT2 brethren, but what I would like to know is, has anyone inserted a Pre-Amp between DAC and power amp?
> 
> ...


I Agree wholeheartedly with Triode as I'm running 2 channel with valve monoblocks, using Dave direct was to digital for me, slightly thin sounding, putting my Valve preamp in the chain and using Dave in Dac mode created a smoother and more dynamic sound


----------



## Triode User

Deano1974 said:


> I Agree wholeheartedly with Triode as I'm running 2 channel with valve monoblocks, using Dave direct was to digital for me, slightly thin sounding, putting my Valve preamp in the chain and using Dave in Dac mode created a smoother and more dynamic sound



I tried Dave direct into various valve power amps - 2A3, 300B, 845, and none of them sounded great. A pre amp sorted all of them. I’m not talking about tone or colour but fundamental issues with flabby base etc.

Additionally I did some experiments with Dave, my MFA preamp and a pair of 845 PP monos.

Dave at 0dB, preamp at -30dB — great sound. 
Dave at -30dB, preamp at 0dB — poor sound.


----------



## adrianm

So what's the consensus on direct-to-Dave vs using a headphone amp with headphones that the Dave could run easily? Like my Z1R's for example.I see a lot of people are suggesting that the Amp is more important than the Dac (Because of..reasons?) and suggest spending more on the amp as it will ultimately make more of a difference.I find that hard to believe and counterintuitive but i'm curios as for what the arguments are for each side.Why would a more powerful amp make sense or even matter?


----------



## iDesign

adrianm said:


> So what's the consensus on direct-to-Dave vs using a headphone amp with headphones that the Dave could run easily? Like my Z1R's for example.I see a lot of people are suggesting that the Amp is more important than the Dac (Because of..reasons?) and suggest spending more on the amp as it will ultimately make more of a difference.I find that hard to believe and counterintuitive but i'm curios as for what the arguments are for each side.Why would a more powerful amp make sense or even matter?


I’m not sure anyone is advocating using the DAVE and a separate amplifier with the Sony MDR-Z1R.


----------



## coopdog

Hi,
I would be grateful for advice on the best way to go about selling a DAVE and M Scaler.
All advice is appreciated.
Thanks in advance for your help

Cheers,
G


----------



## adrianm

coopdog said:


> Hi,
> I would be grateful for advice on the best way to go about selling a DAVE and M Scaler.
> All advice is appreciated.
> Thanks in advance for your help
> ...


*shots fired*


----------



## coopdog

adrianm said:


> *shots fired*


Hi
Sorry, but what do you mean by “shots fired?”
thnx


----------



## adrianm

coopdog said:


> Hi
> Sorry, but what do you mean by “shots fired?”
> thnx


I meant people will get offended


----------



## adrianm

What are you replacing them with?


----------



## coopdog

adrianm said:


> I meant people will get offended


Hi
I don’t mean to offend people. It’s a COVID related financial situation.
What exactly will offend people?
thnx,
G


----------



## adrianm

I was mostly joking, but usually on these threads some people get offended when someone doesn't share their views (like in selling gear they own and love  ) .
   Sorry to hear about your covid woes though, hope it all works out.


----------



## coopdog

adrianm said:


> I was mostly joking, but usually on these threads some people get offended when someone doesn't share their views (like in selling gear they own and love  ) .
> Sorry to hear about your covid woes though, hope it all works out.


Thnx for your wishes. I appreciate it.
g


----------



## JTbbb

coopdog, just put items on the for sale boards here.


----------



## coopdog

JTbbb said:


> coopdog, just put items on the for sale boards here.


Thanks for the advice. Will do.


----------



## Triode User

coopdog said:


> Hi,
> I would be grateful for advice on the best way to go about selling a DAVE and M Scaler.
> All advice is appreciated.
> Thanks in advance for your help
> ...



I'm not sure where you live but here in the UK I have always found ebay is a good place to sell quality kit such as Chord. I have got some really good prices and only had £1 ebay fees by waiting for one of their fee offers.


----------



## coopdog

Triode User said:


> I'm not sure where you live but here in the UK I have always found ebay is a good place to sell quality kit such as Chord. I have got some really good prices and only had £1 ebay fees by waiting for one of their fee offers.


Thanks for the advice. I will try eBay.
Have a great and healthy day.
Cheers


----------



## Triode User

coopdog said:


> Thanks for the advice. I will try eBay.
> Have a great and healthy day.
> Cheers



Look at the actual sold prices on ebay by using their filters or advanced search settings. That will give a good idea of where to pitch the price. For popular items such as Dave or the Mscaler I would even be tempted to be brave and sell via an auction with a 99p start price and no reserve. That normally gets my highest sale prices.


----------



## coopdog

Triode User said:


> Look at the actual sold prices on ebay by using their filters or advanced search settings. That will give a good idea of where to pitch the price. For popular items such as Dave or the Mscaler I would even be tempted to be brave and sell via an auction with a 99p start price and no reserve. That normally gets my highest sale prices.


Thanks for the additional advice. You are a fountain of information and I appreciate it.
Cheers


----------



## JamieMcC

As a benchmark with full manufacturers warranty and free shipping.

https://petertyson.co.uk/clearance/ex-demo-specials/dacs

They have been listing these for a little while now.  Mine looked like it was brand new when it arrived.


----------



## JTbbb

coopdog, there are people on the for sale boards wanting Dave and MScaler.


----------



## JTbbb

Silly me. I see that you’re on it. Good luck.


----------



## ubs28

Wasn't Rob working on an audio interface or something like that? If so, when will it be released as I am currently in the need of a new one actually.


----------



## iDesign

coopdog said:


> Thanks for the advice. I will try eBay.
> Have a great and healthy day.
> Cheers


I personally wouldn't use eBay due to the auction fees and buyers increasingly abusing the eBay Buyer Protection policies and forcing sellers to accept returns after 45 days. Use the Head-Fi forums and other audiophile classifieds sites first.


----------



## coopdog

iDesign said:


> I personally wouldn't use eBay due to the auction fees and buyers increasingly abusing the eBay Buyer Protection policies and forcing sellers to accept returns after 45 days. Use the Head-Fi forums and other audiophile classifieds sites first.


Thanks.....that’s useful info.
Appreciate it.
Cheers


----------



## anil

All

I have a Dave and have a pair of horn speakers inbound (107db and 18ohm impedance) and was wondering if anyone had attempted driving a pair of horn speakers directly from the Dave.  I know there are well documented examples of people driving single driver speakers like the Voxativ 9.87 and Omega speakers, but curious if anyone successfully tried the same with horn speakers (AG Duo XD in this case).

Thanks!
Anil


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

anil said:


> All
> 
> I have a Dave and have a pair of horn speakers inbound (107db and 18ohm impedance) and was wondering if anyone had attempted driving a pair of horn speakers directly from the Dave.  I know there are well documented examples of people driving single driver speakers like the Voxativ 9.87 and Omega speakers, but curious if anyone successfully tried the same with horn speakers (AG Duo XD in this case).
> 
> ...


Man o Man o Man!  I have been eyballing those speakers to go with my Audio Note Gear.  I would give it a go with the Dave, but I wouldn't rule out other options.  I'm sure you saw Steve Guttenbergs' video with Miguel, those speakers and the Audio Note Kondo Ongaku.


----------



## Jon L

CRITICALSHOT said:


> I have a Dave and have a pair of horn speakers inbound (107db and 18ohm impedance)



My horn speakers are 107dB sensitive, and while I can't speak to Dave, this is a wonderful(?) opportunity to iron out any tube noises, ground loops, stray buzzes or otherwise unidentified decibels in the system


----------



## anil

Yeah, I saw that video, that's an amazing set up!  A Kondo Ongaku is way out of my budget (esp with the recent purchase of the Duo XDs), even an older 1997 version (made by Kondo san) is also a little rich for my blood (there's one for sale on USAM, which I briefly considered in a moment of fiscal insanity).

I will be looking at some "reasonable" SET amps as well, if folks have some good suggestions.  I'm pretty clueless in this space (my experience has been mostly limited to Pass Labs X/XA series amps).

Anil

PS:  What AN gear do you have.  I assume from AN UK?



CRITICALSHOT said:


> Man o Man o Man!  I have been eyballing those speakers to go with my Audio Note Gear.  I would give it a go with the Dave, but I wouldn't rule out other options.  I'm sure you saw Steve Guttenbergs' video with Miguel, those speakers and the Audio Note Kondo Ongaku.


----------



## anil

These sound like words of wisdom from experience   Duly noted.  I see some careful experimentation ahead for me.

Anil



Jon L said:


> My horn speakers are 107dB sensitive, and while I can't speak to Dave, this is a wonderful(?) opportunity to iron out any tube noises, ground loops, stray buzzes or otherwise unidentified decibels in the system


----------



## CRITICALSHOT (Jul 23, 2020)

anil said:


> Yeah, I saw that video, that's an amazing set up!  A Kondo Ongaku is way out of my budget (esp with the recent purchase of the Duo XDs), even an older 1997 version (made by Kondo san) is also a little rich for my blood (there's one for sale on USAM, which I briefly considered in a moment of fiscal insanity).
> 
> I will be looking at some "reasonable" SET amps as well, if folks have some good suggestions.  I'm pretty clueless in this space (my experience has been mostly limited to Pass Labs X/XA series amps).
> 
> ...


*I have the Audio Note OTO Phono SE Signature Tube Integrated Amplifier, the Audio Note 3.1x/II Balanced DAC and the Audio Note AN-E/SPe HE Speakers as a second system.*


----------



## anil

CRITICALSHOT said:


> *I have the Audio Note OTO Phono SE Signature Tube Integrated Amplifier, the Audio Note 3.1x/II Balanced DAC and the Audio Note AN-E/SPe HE Speakers as a second system.*



Nice, and that's your second system?  Very cool!!


----------



## musickid

it's the third system which defines one's integrity.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

anil said:


> Nice, and that's your second system?  Very cool!!


If I had those speakers of yours it would be the first and the last system!


----------



## Kirklandia

CRITICALSHOT said:


> If I had those speakers of yours it would be the first and the last system!


I used to say that but now my wife laughs at me and I have learned to withhold that statement.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

Kirklandia said:


> I used to say that but now my wife laughs at me and I have learned to withhold that statement.


Sometimes we have to lie to ourselves.


----------



## adrianm

Kirklandia said:


> I used to say that but now my wife laughs at me and I have learned to withhold that statement.


Notice you're using a Niagara with your Dave and M-scaler , would you say it makes a difference? I bought an Isotek Sirius for my  Sony TA-ZH1ES ,but i returned it to get a Dave soon and since it sounded amazing out of the wall at the dealer,i'm not sure how much of a difference my Isotek will make.Supposedly Dave should be more or less immune to dirty power and such.


----------



## Kirklandia

adrianm said:


> Notice you're using a Niagara with your Dave and M-scaler , would you say it makes a difference? I bought an Isotek Sirius for my  Sony TA-ZH1ES ,but i returned it to get a Dave soon and since it sounded amazing out of the wall at the dealer,i'm not sure how much of a difference my Isotek will make.Supposedly Dave should be more or less immune to dirty power and such.


Yes, quieter background, improvement in tactile quality of bass, better than I expected. I had everything plugged into a cheap surge protector previously.


----------



## mbj666

hi all,

soon to be new DAVE owner here after some set-up pointers/tips if possible please (bit overwhelming trying to dig through the 996 page thread to find stuff....)

will be using it in DAC mode fed via a Sarum T RCA-DIN into my naim pre/power amps into Kudos s20a speakers will be fed via USB from a Zenith Mk3 server , plan on getting the Mscaler in not too distant future as liked what it did in terms of uplift to Red book CD flacs and smoothing of hiRes stuff, also heard some positive stuff about the innuos phoenix usb reclocker too (which would demo down the line) 

however in terms of pointers interested in some recommended power cables to feed it, whether Fuse upgrade worthwhile (i.e. the Orange), heard some use it in pre-amp mode into a pre-amp also, and BNC cables for Mscaler (i have 1x Sarum T BNC-BNC cable, but is a lot of £ to get another one...) apologies for barrage of queries but really would appreciate any pointers on getting the most out of the DAVE from the off 

thanks


----------



## AndrewOld (Jul 26, 2020)

mbj666 said:


> hi all,
> 
> soon to be new DAVE owner here after some set-up pointers/tips if possible please (bit overwhelming trying to dig through the 996 page thread to find stuff....)
> 
> ...


Last thing I would do is throw good money away on mains cables, BNC cables, fuses and USB “cleaners”. I would put all my money towards an M Scaler.  Meantime I would investigate going straight from the DAVE to your Naim power amp, which will actually make you money if it works. Just beware that it might be that some naim power amps like the bandwidth restricted signal they get from a naim preamp because they can get upset by higher frequencies. If your Naim poweramp does need a naim preamp to work, I’d think of selling both and getting a power amp which you can feed from your DAVE.  Maybe a Chord one!


----------



## mbj666

AndrewOld said:


> Last thing I would do is throw good money away on mains cables, BNC cables, fuses and USB “cleaners”. I would put all my money towards an M Scaler.  Meantime I would investigate going straight from the DAVE to your Naim power amp, which will actually make you money if it works. Just beware that it might be that some naim power amps like the bandwidth restricted signal they get from a naim preamp because they can get upset by higher frequencies. If your Naim poweramp does need a naim preamp to work, I’d think of selling both and getting a power amp which you can feed from your DAVE.  Maybe a Chord one!



tried dave direct to naim poweramp and didn't like the sound as much with the pre in the chain and do love the naim sound so am wanting to stick with them , the demo'ing of DAVE/Mscaler was part of a longer term plan and as you say may do MScaler first but will definitely upgrade powerline and cables at some point hence the query (always found they make a noticeable difference over the years and am closing in on my end game system so once bought won't be upgrading unless a DAVE2 appears at some point in future years and is significantly better


----------



## JTbbb

mbj666. Although it was with a TT2 directly into the amps, I demo’ed a naim 250dr and Etude at home, so I know it can be done. Don’t ask me what cable I used into the naim as I cannot remember, mostly because my retailer set it up for me!


----------



## mbj666

JTbbb said:


> mbj666. Although it was with a TT2 directly into the amps, I demo’ed a naim 250dr and Etude at home, so I know it can be done. Don’t ask me what cable I used into the naim as I cannot remember, mostly because my retailer set it up for me!



i have tried it with a flashbacks RCA - single XLR and maybe was slightly clearer sound but was far more enclosed sound/sound-stage than with the naim pre in the chain using a sarum level interconnect (wasn't same level of interconnect mind, heard others doing similar but with a naim 300 amp as easy to get hold of the 2 single XLR cables not had chance to demo this though...)


----------



## JTbbb

Interesting that you mention better results with the pre amp in the chain. I now have the Dave directly into Etude, and am now on a mission to see what happens with a pre amp installed. It looks possible that I might, at some point in the future, get the chance to try a Benchmark HPA4. So this will be testing headphones and 2 channel.


----------



## AndrewOld

Aassuming the power amp has a sensible input, what can a pre-amp possibly do to what comes out of a DAVE except lose music?


----------



## mbj666

AndrewOld said:


> Aassuming the power amp has a sensible input, what can a pre-amp possibly do to what comes out of a DAVE except lose music?



can only talk to what i experienced in my demo, number of guys on the naim forum run it both ways some direct to amp some into pre-amp


----------



## JTbbb

AndrewOld said:


> Aassuming the power amp has a sensible input, what can a pre-amp possibly do to what comes out of a DAVE except lose music?



I agree. But certain reviews seem to think it can make a positive impact. I would just like to find out for myself.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

JTbbb said:


> I would just like to find out for myself.


That's a sound decision.


----------



## mbj666

regarding my original post any suggestions on following at all please???

however in terms of pointers interested in some recommended power cables to feed it, whether Fuse upgrade worthwhile (i.e. the Orange), heard some use it in pre-amp mode into a pre-amp also, and BNC cables for Mscaler (i have 1x Sarum T BNC-BNC cable, but is a lot of £ to get another one...) apologies for barrage of queries but really would appreciate any pointers on getting the most out of the DAVE from the off


----------



## JTbbb

I think it would be better for you to purchase power/interconnect cables that interest you, which can be returned if they do not meet your expectations. Some folk find that cables make a big difference, others not.


----------



## Malcyg (Jul 26, 2020)

AndrewOld said:


> Aassuming the power amp has a sensible input, what can a pre-amp possibly do to what comes out of a DAVE except lose music?



Logically, you are right, but it’s not definitive as there are too many variables involved including personal preference and taste.

There is only ever one way to be certain what works best for you and that is to ignore what everybody else says and use your own ears to decide. This has always been my own golden rule although I actually ignored it myself with regard to Chord DAC’s for the same reason that you are citing - transparency trumps all. Except I found that sometimes it doesn’t. I run my BluDave directly into a power amp and have always been very happy with the sound. I always ran headphones directly out of Dave but was never entirely happy with it but I just assumed it was as good as it gets because of the transparency aspect. Anyway, I have increasingly moved to headphone use over the last year or so which led me to looking into headphone amps - and I find both my BluDave and H2Go can benefit quite significantly when fed through a headphone amp. YMMV.

So the best answer, as unsatisfactory as it may be, is to try it yourself and see what you prefer.


----------



## Malcyg (Jul 26, 2020)

Deleted #nonsense


----------



## adrianm

It’s the Dave thread,why not a Dave?


----------



## Malcyg

adrianm said:


> It’s the Dave thread,why not a Dave?



In what context? He’s getting a Dave.


----------



## adrianm

Malcyg said:


> In what context? He’s getting a Dave.


You nonsense post


----------



## Malcyg

Nonsense? How so?

It mentions Dave 3 times, so not the wrong thread.


----------



## adrianm

adrianm said:


> It’s the Dave thread,why not a Dave?


 Was a reply to this


Malcyg said:


> Deleted #nonsense


----------



## Malcyg (Jul 26, 2020)

Ah, yes, my nonsense post. I see what you mean.  I made a comment which was nonsense and couldn’t figure out how to delete it.


----------



## Mikey99

anil said:


> Yeah, I saw that video, that's an amazing set up!  A Kondo Ongaku is way out of my budget (esp with the recent purchase of the Duo XDs), even an older 1997 version (made by Kondo san) is also a little rich for my blood (there's one for sale on USAM, which I briefly considered in a moment of fiscal insanity).
> 
> I will be looking at some "reasonable" SET amps as well, if folks have some good suggestions.  I'm pretty clueless in this space (my experience has been mostly limited to Pass Labs X/XA series amps).
> 
> ...


I have the Duo XDs as well. The Airtight ATM300R works beautifully with them. Still expensive, but much less so than the Audio Note Ongaku.


----------



## Clive101

mbj666 said:


> regarding my original post any suggestions on following at all please???
> 
> however in terms of pointers interested in some recommended power cables to feed it, whether Fuse upgrade worthwhile (i.e. the Orange), heard some use it in pre-amp mode into a pre-amp also, and BNC cables for Mscaler (i have 1x Sarum T BNC-BNC cable, but is a lot of £ to get another one...) apologies for barrage of queries but really would appreciate any pointers on getting the most out of the DAVE from the off



I have tried a quite a few BNC cables with Dave and Mscaler along with the Chord Sarum T I ended up with the Wave Storm BNC cables and I love them.
Perhaps a demo of the Sarum T to go with your existing cable and demo against the Wave Storm. You may end up selling your Sarum T and with the money purchase a set of Wave cables but you have to do the demo to hear your preference. Please let us all know how you get on.
Fuses with Dave or any other hardware do make a change in my system (YMMV) Orange I found suck the midrange, Blue too much detail. I found the Atacama Imperium mains cable the best in my system which has it's own fuse matched to the cable, stellar.


----------



## adrianm

Clive101 said:


> I have tried a quite a few BNC cables with Dave and Mscaler along with the Chord Sarum T I ended up with the Wave Storm BNC cables and I love them.
> Perhaps a demo of the Sarum T to go with your existing cable and demo against the Wave Storm. You may end up selling your Sarum T and with the money purchase a set of Wave cables but you have to do the demo to hear your preference. Please let us all know how you get on.
> Fuses with Dave or any other hardware do make a change in my system (YMMV) Orange I found suck the midrange, Blue too much detail. I found the Atacama Imperium mains cable the best in my system which has it's own fuse matched to the cable, stellar.


What exactly does the mains cable provide to warrant the price?


----------



## mbj666

Clive101 said:


> I have tried a quite a few BNC cables with Dave and Mscaler along with the Chord Sarum T I ended up with the Wave Storm BNC cables and I love them.
> Perhaps a demo of the Sarum T to go with your existing cable and demo against the Wave Storm. You may end up selling your Sarum T and with the money purchase a set of Wave cables but you have to do the demo to hear your preference. Please let us all know how you get on.
> Fuses with Dave or any other hardware do make a change in my system (YMMV) Orange I found suck the midrange, Blue too much detail. I found the Atacama Imperium mains cable the best in my system which has it's own fuse matched to the cable, stellar.



Thats good idea seen lots of dave/mscaler pics with these wave cables just seen that wave do 14 day return too so possible to home demo as you say


----------



## STR-1

Clive101 said:


> I found the Atacama Imperium mains cable the best in my system which has it's own fuse matched to the cable, stellar.


Hi Clive.  What other power cables have you tried with the DAVE, which you prefer the Atacama cable to?  I’ve tried a few from Shunyata, Audioquest, Chord Company etc, and am currently using a Shunyata Alpha NR v1, but I might give the Imperium a tryout.  

As it happens, I’m currently discussing with Atacama possible custom options for the bamboo-shelf equipment rack I have, and about coupling generally.  The cables did get a mention in conversation, but it was more in passing as my focus at that time was on equipment support and approaches to reducing internal resonances.


----------



## anil

Cool, thanks.  I will keep this on my watch list.

Anil



Mikey99 said:


> I have the Duo XDs as well. The Airtight ATM300R works beautifully with them. Still expensive, but much less so than the Audio Note Ongaku.


----------



## jlbrach

may I ask a favor of dave owners...this may sound silly but I am trying to figure out which of the balanced out outputs the right and which is the left....since there are no labels on the unit I am looking at the manual and I see a manual that show the right being all the way at the end on the other side of the ac plug and on off switch and I see a manual 1.1 that says the opposite...I believe the right to be the balanced XLR all the way to the end of the side away from the on off switch but want to confirm it....I appreciate it folks


----------



## jlbrach

ok, update...I found my original manual in the box and it indeed does indicate that the right is the the output all the way to the other side from the plug and on off switch...I am perplexed as to why the manual 1.1 says otherwise...did they change something in terms of outputs in newer models?


----------



## Triode User

jlbrach said:


> may I ask a favor of dave owners...this may sound silly but I am trying to figure out which of the balanced out outputs the right and which is the left....since there are no labels on the unit I am looking at the manual and I see a manual that show the right being all the way at the end on the other side of the ac plug and on off switch and I see a manual 1.1 that says the opposite...I believe the right to be the balanced XLR all the way to the end of the side away from the on off switch but want to confirm it....I appreciate it folks



The manual shows this. I suspect the manual is incorrectly labelled for the XLR but is correct for the RCA.


----------



## AndrewOld

jlbrach said:


> may I ask a favor of dave owners...this may sound silly but I am trying to figure out which of the balanced out outputs the right and which is the left....since there are no labels on the unit I am looking at the manual and I see a manual that show the right being all the way at the end on the other side of the ac plug and on off switch and I see a manual 1.1 that says the opposite...I believe the right to be the balanced XLR all the way to the end of the side away from the on off switch but want to confirm it....I appreciate it folks



https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_stereo.php


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_stereo.php



Andrew, Thanks for that link. I have just done that test with my Dave and it proves to my satisfaction that the Dave manual is incorrect. Below is the correct labeling. @jlbrach


----------



## Clive101

adrianm said:


> What exactly does the mains cable provide to warrant the price?



I found this which may help you in general terms of mains cables. Note the reference to the Chord Dave and mains cables.

https://audiobacon.net/2019/08/17/27-audiophile-power-cables-reviewed/

For me the review seems to test only US mains cables without a fuse ? Correct me if I am wrong.

The Atacarma mains cable has a matching fuse which is matched for the cable so for us in the UK we also have the variable of a fuse to contend with. IMHO fuses change the sound of the cable so in the UK the review may not apply unless you use a non UK plug...or change a UK plug internals to negate the use of a fuse...!

As far as the value vs for SQ only you can answer that question there just are too many variables for us to discuss on the Dave forum



STR-1 said:


> Hi Clive.  What other power cables have you tried with the DAVE, which you prefer the Atacama cable to?  I’ve tried a few from Shunyata, Audioquest, Chord Company etc, and am currently using a Shunyata Alpha NR v1, but I might give the Imperium a tryout.
> 
> As it happens, I’m currently discussing with Atacama possible custom options for the bamboo-shelf equipment rack I have, and about coupling generally.  The cables did get a mention in conversation, but it was more in passing as my focus at that time was on equipment support and approaches to reducing internal resonances.



I have tried the Chord Sarum T, Music, Signature, MCRU no 77 with Orange fuse, Jorma (Circa £1,200) and Supra with Dave.

NOTE the fuses make a difference YMMV.

NOTE When I use a Torus Power Supply the cables have a lesser affect.

BTW I love the Atacarma Racks and they made bespoke base (special order) for my Torus power supply see enclosed.

The beauty of the company and rack is they will change and bespoke the rack to meet your needs in the present and future.

You can change the height of the legs the product is awesome. PM me if your purchasing the SE as I want to upgrade to the new SE2


----------



## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> Andrew, Thanks for that link. I have just done that test with my Dave and it proves to my satisfaction that the Dave manual is incorrect. Below is the correct labeling. @jlbrach



My DAVE is wired the same as yours, but I thought that running the test in the link would give you absolute confirmation, and check your whole signal path. As to the mistake in the manual and the absence of any labeling on the back panel, what do you expect for £8,500?


----------



## Malcyg

Clive101 said:


> I found this which may help you in general terms of mains cables. Note the reference to the Chord Dave and mains cables.
> 
> https://audiobacon.net/2019/08/17/27-audiophile-power-cables-reviewed/
> 
> ...



I agree your comments on Atacama racks Clive. Also, the fact that they are modular means that you can build the rack as your system evolves as well as making rack management easier than with a fixed rack. I have the older version with the chunky wooden legs. You cannot get additional shelves for it anymore which I have taken as being good for self discipline. 😉


----------



## JTbbb (Jul 27, 2020)

deleted, was already answered!.


----------



## jlbrach

Triode User said:


> Andrew, Thanks for that link. I have just done that test with my Dave and it proves to my satisfaction that the Dave manual is incorrect. Below is the correct labeling. @jlbrach


I do appreciate it, I hadnt used the balanced out output on my dave for some time and when I went online to look at the manual to check which is R and L due to the fact that there is no labeling on the unit I came across the bogus information on the new updated manual....the thing that is strange is my printed manual is correct as are several other older online manuals...why they put up an incorrect version is beyond me and it took me quite a while to figure it out....thankfully it has been worked out


----------



## AndrewOld

Has anyone got a picture of a DAVE where the i/o sockets are marked? Are the controls on top marked too?


----------



## mbj666

Clive101 said:


> I found this which may help you in general terms of mains cables. Note the reference to the Chord Dave and mains cables.
> 
> https://audiobacon.net/2019/08/17/27-audiophile-power-cables-reviewed/
> 
> ...


How did you find the mcru 77 vs the sarum and the atacama one (just to add to my demo/want list)


----------



## Hooster (Jul 27, 2020)

AndrewOld said:


> My DAVE is wired the same as yours, but I thought that running the test in the link would give you absolute confirmation, and check your whole signal path. As to the mistake in the manual and the absence of any labeling on the back panel, what do you expect for £8,500?



That is too funny. Makes you wonder what else they got wrong if they can't manage to do something so simple... Would it have broken their budget to actually label the outputs on the unit?


----------



## Mediahound

Chord is really fairly consistent with incorrect user manuals. Some versions of the  M Scaler manual had the BNC jacks labeled wrong as well.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Clive101 said:


> I found this which may help you in general terms of mains cables. Note the reference to the Chord Dave and mains cables.
> 
> https://audiobacon.net/2019/08/17/27-audiophile-power-cables-reviewed/
> 
> ...



I also use  an Atacarma Rack Clive. Very happy with it.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Jul 27, 2020)

My experience with SR Orange fuses is the biggest jump in dynamic improvement this side of changing your speakers. If someone values dynamics and 'even-frequency balance' (for truer instrument timbre) high on their list of important system virtues then I doubt they will find more bang for their buck in achieving that goal.

I also think the benefits of Grounding Blocks are underestimated by many audiophiles. Most of our houses and systems have bad electrics I would bet. Clean electrics are a revelation.

Finally Power chord 'bang for buck' best I have heard is probably Kimber Palladian PK10 at around £1700. I think you would have to pay an awful lot more to beat it.


----------



## AndrewOld

Hooster said:


> Who
> That is too funny. Makes you wonder what else they got wrong if they can't manage to do something so simple... Would it have broken their budget to actually label the outputs on the unit?


What annoys me is a) that they didn’t label the back panel in the first place, b) they didn’t label the top panel controls which effectively makes the DAVE unusable by any other family family member like my wife,  and c) when they did engrave the back panel they instantly devalued my DAVE. There are no excuses for omissions like this. Especially when they claim “design, engineering and build standards demanded of the finest pro equipment”.  BS.


----------



## Jawed

mbj666 said:


> soon to be new DAVE owner here after some set-up pointers/tips if possible please (bit overwhelming trying to dig through the 996 page thread to find stuff....)
> 
> will be using it in DAC mode fed via a Sarum T RCA-DIN into my naim pre/power amps into Kudos s20a speakers will be fed via USB from a Zenith Mk3 server , plan on getting the Mscaler in not too distant future as liked what it did in terms of uplift to Red book CD flacs and smoothing of hiRes stuff, also heard some positive stuff about the innuos phoenix usb reclocker too (which would demo down the line)
> 
> however in terms of pointers interested in some recommended power cables to feed it, whether Fuse upgrade worthwhile (i.e. the Orange), heard some use it in pre-amp mode into a pre-amp also, and BNC cables for Mscaler (i have 1x Sarum T BNC-BNC cable, but is a lot of £ to get another one...) apologies for barrage of queries but really would appreciate any pointers on getting the most out of the DAVE from the off


A lot of Naim pre-amps can't cope with how loud DAVE is in DAC mode. DAVE's pre-amp mode sounds identical in terms of quality. Find the sweet spot for the volume so that the Naim gear doesn't get upset.

You've probably discovered that radio frequency noise is an issue with DAVE. So I recommend you first try to understand how DAVE should sound, even if only temporarily using a crazy setup. So find a device that outputs optical. Make sure no other inputs on DAVE are connected. Or, if you have a phone, tablet or laptop running off battery power, USB from this device is a good substitute for optical (again, with no other input cables connected to DAVE). The key here is to determine the true potential of DAVE.

Use this setup as your reference for sound quality when trying to get your server to sound its best. If you find the server sounds worse, I suggest 30 or 40 clip on ferrites added to the DAVE end of the USB cable. You can spend thousands on USB cables and they cannot be as good because their RF noise filtering is too weak. The galvanic isolation on DAVE's USB input still lets through too much RF noise, sadly.

RF noise getting into DAVE is the sole reason for variations in its sound quality. DAVE isn't affected by jitter.

In my signature there's a link about power cables. It's a simple improvement and in the end the difference is fairly subtle. Your Naim gear will probably object to RF noise in the power cables more than DAVE will, and DAVE may be sending RF noise to your Naim gear. So it may turn out that treating the power cables for your Naim gear is more important than for DAVE itself.

See if your dealer can lend you a Chord Etude to put between DAVE and your speakers. I think this is the next thing you should try rather than M Scaler (it's about £500 more). If you're using NAC-A5 you'll probably want something else while trying Etude. Etude's design prefers XLR cables to RCA. DAVE + Etude is infectiously beautiful 

Now playing: Miles Davis - Dig


----------



## Malcyg

DaveRedRef-III said:


> My experience with SR Orange fuses is the biggest jump in dynamic improvement this side of changing your speakers.



Wow, really? That big from a fuse? Presumably in every item in the system?


----------



## bluecar

Hooster said:


> Who
> That is too funny. Makes you wonder what else they got wrong if they can't manage to do something so simple... Would it have broken their budget to actually label the outputs on the unit?


"It's not a mistake, it's a feature" - welcome to chord ownership


----------



## llamaluv

What I resent most as a DAVE owner is the non-upgradable firmware. 

Same goes for the M-Scaler.


----------



## jlbrach

the dave has held up pretty well as a top tier DAC in its price range and above


----------



## llamaluv

llamaluv said:


> What I resent most as a DAVE owner is the non-upgradable firmware.





jlbrach said:


> the dave has held up pretty well as a top tier DAC in its price range and above


Yea, agreed. Mind that these two comments    are not mutually exclusive.


----------



## adrianm

DaveRedRef-III said:


> My experience with SR Orange fuses is the biggest jump in dynamic improvement this side of changing your speakers. If someone values dynamics and 'even-frequency balance' (for truer instrument timbre) high on their list of important system virtues then I doubt they will find more bang for their buck in achieving that goal.
> 
> I also think the benefits of Grounding Blocks are underestimated by many audiophiles. Most of our houses and systems have bad electrics I would bet. Clean electrics are a revelation.
> 
> Finally Power chord 'bang for buck' best I have heard is probably Kimber Palladian PK10 at around £1700. I think you would have to pay an awful lot more to beat it.


So are you guys only using the cable with no mains filtration?


----------



## mbj666

Jawed said:


> A lot of Naim pre-amps can't cope with how loud DAVE is in DAC mode. DAVE's pre-amp mode sounds identical in terms of quality. Find the sweet spot for the volume so that the Naim gear doesn't get upset.
> 
> You've probably discovered that radio frequency noise is an issue with DAVE. So I recommend you first try to understand how DAVE should sound, even if only temporarily using a crazy setup. So find a device that outputs optical. Make sure no other inputs on DAVE are connected. Or, if you have a phone, tablet or laptop running off battery power, USB from this device is a good substitute for optical (again, with no other input cables connected to DAVE). The key here is to determine the true potential of DAVE.
> 
> ...



thx for that some useful stuff to try out there, my NAIM pre-amp been happy being fed via DAVE in DAC mode via RCA during demo will try it in pre-amp mode aswell though 

also can try USB off the laptop in battery mode aswell to get a feel 

interesting on the RFI front, can see now why some people buy the big custom hifi cable DC3 units to power their DAVE now /or the expensive Shunyata  NR cables/ or the USB regens/converters before the DAVE


----------



## Triode User

mbj666 said:


> can see now why some people buy the big custom hifi cable DC3 units to power their DAVE



 . . . indeed and I use a Custom HiFi Cables DC4 to power my Dave and also a separate one to power my Mscaler.


----------



## adrianm

mbj666 said:


> thx for that some useful stuff to try out there, my NAIM pre-amp been happy being fed via DAVE in DAC mode via RCA during demo will try it in pre-amp mode aswell though
> 
> also can try USB off the laptop in battery mode aswell to get a feel
> 
> interesting on the RFI front, can see now why some people buy the big custom hifi cable DC3 units to power their DAVE now /or the expensive Shunyata  NR cables/ or the USB regens/converters before the DAVE


Or you can try a mains filter , which has Rfi reduction 3-8 times that of a 1k Shunyata cable starting at  half the price.


----------



## mbj666

adrianm said:


> Or you can try a mains filter , which has Rfi reduction 3-8 times that of a 1k Shunyata cable starting at  half the price.



any you would recommend as having naim gear RFI filters have not worked well in past, have used an AIRLINK balanced transformer which was a great cost effective upgrade so know benefits clean mains can bring to a system and would keep DAVE on separate socket away from the NAIM gear i think


----------



## yellowblue

DaveRedRef-III said:


> My experience with SR Orange fuses is the biggest jump in dynamic improvement this side of changing your speakers.



Which SR Orange fuses did you choose for the DAVE and which should I get for the MScaler? And is there some kind of manual how to change the fuses?


----------



## yellowblue

There are some rumours btw on a forum at Audiophilestyle that there will be a new offer for Orange fuses (pay 2 and get 3) in august.


----------



## adrianm

mbj666 said:


> any you would recommend as having naim gear RFI filters have not worked well in past, have used an AIRLINK balanced transformer which was a great cost effective upgrade so know benefits clean mains can bring to a system and would keep DAVE on separate socket away from the NAIM gear i think


I got the Isotek Sirius for my Sony TA-ZH1ES and it improved it drastically.They're made for hi-fi so can't really go wrong , i would stick to the Sirius line or higher though, Polaris is a cheaper alternative but less Rfi reducftion.
   Since then i have returned the Sony and going to get Dave in a week or 2, going to test it with then.Even if the improvements aren't as drastic , there's the added surge protection.


----------



## mbj666

adrianm said:


> I got the Isotek Sirius for my Sony TA-ZH1ES and it improved it drastically.They're made for hi-fi so can't really go wrong , i would stick to the Sirius line or higher though, Polaris is a cheaper alternative but less Rfi reducftion.
> Since then i have returned the Sony and going to get Dave in a week or 2, going to test it with then.Even if the improvements aren't as drastic , there's the added surge protection.



Would only need 1 socket, and could connect it to the spare socket of my balanced airlink transformer 

Any one tried this with their DAVE
*IsoTek EVO3 Gemini £300*

Cheers


----------



## adrianm

mbj666 said:


> Would only need 1 socket, and could connect it to the spare socket of my balanced airlink transformer
> 
> Any one tried this with their DAVE
> *IsoTek EVO3 Gemini £300*
> ...


Well it seems your airlink transformer does more or less the same thing, no idea how well but still, you might want to replace it entirely and check the results, if not i'm sure they have a good return policy.


----------



## adrianm

mbj666 said:


> Would only need 1 socket, and could connect it to the spare socket of my balanced airlink transformer
> 
> Any one tried this with their DAVE
> *IsoTek EVO3 Gemini £300*
> ...


Unless you want to go way more expensive (double +) and you only need 1 socket (you could actually use the second one for an M-scaler down the line) you could give that a go.It's basically a 2 socket Polaris.Differences vs the Sirius would be 30 vs 40 db of noise reduction and less cross interference between connected devices (a non issue in your case).Next up there's Aquarius ,Sigmas , and Titan one ,for a lot more money each.


----------



## adrianm

mbj666 said:


> Would only need 1 socket, and could connect it to the spare socket of my balanced airlink transformer
> 
> Any one tried this with their DAVE
> *IsoTek EVO3 Gemini £300*
> ...


Alternatively, there's the Syncro Uni which is used before your airlink transformer and supposedly rebalances the sine wave ,no rfi figures provided though and i couldn't find much about it ,hard to tell which would yield better results,but if you wanna play around and return them...:
https://www.isoteksystems.com/product/performance/evo3-syncro-uni/


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Jul 28, 2020)

Malcyg said:


> Wow, really? That big from a fuse? Presumably in every item in the system?



Hi Malc
RE: SR Orange Fuses
Yes 5 x 13A for the UK plugs and 1 x 2.5A inside the Innuos Statement. The only thing anyone needs to remember is that they are DIRECTIONAL. THis is very important to get right.

Crappy standard fuses compromise dynamics. There is no question imo. The other thing they do is skew the dynamic delivery. Its not just a question of constrained dynamics to my ears they actually skew the linear frequency range because they cannot deliver it as recorded.

NOTE: The 2.5A for the Innuos is not the officially recommended size (Innuos data says 2.0A) However email with Innuos confirmed no problem with 2.5A. I would also recommend a component electrical feed as being better than a wall or power amp feed to the Innuos as it will risk blowing the fuse otherwise. You won't compromise sound because the Innuos draws very little current. Amazingly little in fact.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

adrianm said:


> So are you guys only using the cable with no mains filtration?




I use an Isotek Sigmas adrianm


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

yellowblue said:


> Which SR Orange fuses did you choose for the DAVE and which should I get for the MScaler? And is there some kind of manual how to change the fuses?



They don't have fuses. Only the cable connecting them has a fuse.


----------



## naynay

mbj666 said:


> Thats good idea seen lots of dave/mscaler pics with these wave cables just seen that wave do 14 day return too so possible to home demo as you say


Just make your own.Put some cylindrical ferrite cores on a meter length of the Oyaide FTVS-510 5N cable with the same brand Oyaide SLSB BNC connectors and you have it.Took me about half an hour per cable as It was my first time and parts are not to expensive as well.


----------



## GryphonGuy

yellowblue said:


> Which SR Orange fuses did you choose for the DAVE and which should I get for the MScaler? And is there some kind of manual how to change the fuses?



I don't believe there are any fuses in DAVE. The UK power system has such a large plug into the wall socket, that they fit a small 13 amp fuse in the plug at the wall end (in fact it might be the reverse, maybe they are mandated to fit a fuse in the power cord so the plug has to be large). So probably no opportunity for other power systems not using a fuse in the cord to play with fuses to change the DAVE's electrical performance.

Cheers
GG


----------



## Rob Watts

1000 pages


----------



## adrianm

Rob Watts said:


> 1000 pages


And i haven't even gotten my Dave yet, 1 more week to go


----------



## adrianm

As a future owner i have to say i'm pretty concerned about eventually adding the M-Scaler, since the general agenda being pushed is "you need 1.6k cables for it to sound good " and other users preferred DAVE without it rather than get them ,and eventually even moved on to another dac because of this. 
     I haven't listened to it with the HMS yet but since @Rob Watts is using them as well ,it's basically acknowledging a flaw in the HMS filtering and Chord should do something about providing adequate BNC cables if an improvement on the HMS itself is not possible. At this price point , requiring cables that cost 50% of the M-scaler (or more depending on discounts) to get the most of it (Or not worse than standalone DAVE as others put it) feels unfair, like game developers locking away half the content in DLCs.


----------



## iamoneagain (Jul 29, 2020)

adrianm said:


> As a future owner i have to say i'm pretty concerned about eventually adding the M-Scaler, since the general agenda being pushed is "you need 1.6k cables for it to sound good " and other users preferred DAVE without it rather than get them ,and eventually even moved on to another dac because of this.
> I haven't listened to it with the HMS yet but since @Rob Watts is using them as well ,it's basically acknowledging a flaw in the HMS filtering and Chord should do something about providing adequate BNC cables if an improvement on the HMS itself is not possible. At this price point , requiring cables that cost 50% of the M-scaler (or more depending on discounts) to get the most of it (Or not worse than standalone DAVE as others put it) feels unfair, like game developers locking away half the content in DLCs.



The mscaler and Dave with all stock cables sounds amazing. You do not need all these expensive cables. However, with any audio product you can change the sound with different cables for better or worse. That’s just part of the hobby. Do you want to squeeze out the last 1-2% for a lot of money.

I went the cheap method and tried Blue Jean bnc cables for about $40 for the pair. I also bought Poweradd pilot pro 5 for under $100 instead of expensive Wave cables to see what effect it had on RFI reduction. It does create a darker sound that takes a while to appreciate. With these cheap tweaks I can decide whether it’s worth it to spend more. I decided it wasn’t. I’m completely satisfied with the current sound. I also kept the stock power cord for the Dave in place with no plans to swap out.


----------



## AndrewOld

adrianm said:


> As a future owner i have to say i'm pretty concerned about eventually adding the M-Scaler, since the general agenda being pushed is "you need 1.6k cables for it to sound good " and other users preferred DAVE without it rather than get them ,and eventually even moved on to another dac because of this.
> I haven't listened to it with the HMS yet but since @Rob Watts is using them as well ,it's basically acknowledging a flaw in the HMS filtering and Chord should do something about providing adequate BNC cables if an improvement on the HMS itself is not possible. At this price point , requiring cables that cost 50% of the M-scaler (or more depending on discounts) to get the most of it (Or not worse than standalone DAVE as others put it) feels unfair, like game developers locking away half the content in DLCs.


I agree with you in many ways. The cable situation has really damaged the product and the company, especially since Rob Watts himself now tacitly endorses the cables. But at least he has also said you can get an equal or better result using a battery for a fraction of the cost of the ferrited wires.  It would’ve been a lot better way to treat customers if a clip on ferrite solution had been pursued, perhaps with a cable of different diameter, or fixing the problem properly, or as you say Chord making cables available at a sensible price. Just can’t believe that four cables are as expensive to make as one M Scaler, or have as much intellectual property, design or development content.


----------



## adrianm (Jul 29, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> The mscaler and Dave with all stock cables sounds amazing. You do not need all these expensive cables. However, with any audio product you can change the sound with different cables for better or worse. That’s just part of the hobby. Do you want to squeeze out the last 1-2% for a lot of money.
> 
> I went the cheap method and tried Blue Jean bnc cables for about $40 for the pair. I also bought Poweradd pilot pro 5 for under $100 instead of expensive Wave cables to see what effect it had on RFI reduction. It does create a darker sound that takes a while to appreciate. With these cheap tweaks I can decide whether it’s worth it to spend more. I decided it wasn’t. I’m completely satisfied with the current sound. I also kept the stock power cord for the Dave in place with no plans to swap out.


I see,that's good to hear, people make it sound like night and day difference.Since my Isotek Sirius had a dramatic effect on my last dac , i hope it will do the same on the Dave and M-scaler. From what i understand though , the M-scaler itself is the source of the RF , which is why the ferrites on the cables.Still hoping it's all overblown.
   Listening to the Dave alone with the Hi-fi filter on vs off made a pretty big difference to me.And since it's recommended to use the M-scaler with Hi-fi filter off...adding even more RF noise would make the sound even brighter i assume


----------



## AndrewOld

adrianm said:


> I see,that's good to hear, people make it sound like night and day difference.Since my Isotek Sirius had a dramatic effect on my last dac , i hope it will do the same on the Dave and M-scaler. From what i understand though , the M-scaler itself is the source of the RF , which is why the ferrites on the cables.Still hoping it's all overblown.
> Listening to the Dave alone with the Hi-fi filter on vs off made a pretty big difference to me.And since it's recommended to use the M-scaler with Hi-fi filter off...adding even more RF noise would make the sound even brighter i assume


If the M Scaler with the stock cables doesn’t blow you away, if you don’t think immediately that you have never heard anything like it before, if you don’t instantly hear and feel an order or magnitude more power, more coherence, more reality, more tangibility, more solidity, more reality in your music then forget about it. The whole RF thing is preposterously overblown, in some cases by people with vested commercial interests, in other cases by people with no technical knowledge.


----------



## adrianm

AndrewOld said:


> If the M Scaler with the stock cables doesn’t blow you away, if you don’t think immediately that you have never heard anything like it before, if you don’t instantly hear and feel an order or magnitude more power, more coherence, more reality, more tangibility, more solidity, more reality in your music then forget about it. The whole RF thing is preposterously overblown, in some cases by people with vested commercial interests, in other cases by people with no technical knowledge.


 Well i'm not sure what to expect since i've heard the TT2 with and without the M-scaler, for a few minutes it was an upgrade,sure , but to me it still paled compared to DAVE without the M-scaler. I was so convinced and excited that i forgot to  test DAVE with HMS , i just kept listening to it until it was time to leave  .
   I noticed you were looking for a solution to neatly stack Dave and Hms, did you end up finding one? I'm also in the "no way im paying Choral ensemble  money " camp.


----------



## iamoneagain

So I still use HF filter on even with the mscaler. It’s all part of the darker sound that brings out more weight and texture. I think this all depends on what headphones or speakers you’re using.

And also think the RFI issue is overblown. There’s a difference but it’s still the final percent. Much bigger difference when using mscaler and switching to 1 million taps and passthru. Also think switching HF on and off affects sound more.

Even though Rob said he uses Wave cables at home he still said when he used to travel he didn’t bother to bring them. Just used stock. Think he called improvement like the icing on the cake. I believe to mean that it’s the final tweak to the sound but already almost all the of the way there without it.

To me using the battery makes sound just a touch more analog sounding on an already amazing sound. I’m using Focal Utopia’s with Danacable, so very easily to hear any changes in the sound. But could easily go back to stock power supply and be happy. You brain hears difference when switching but quickly adjusted to sound after a minute and I didn’t find stock sound harsh or edgy.


----------



## mbj666

adrianm said:


> I see,that's good to hear, people make it sound like night and day difference.Since my Isotek Sirius had a dramatic effect on my last dac , i hope it will do the same on the Dave and M-scaler. From what i understand though , the M-scaler itself is the source of the RF , which is why the ferrites on the cables.Still hoping it's all overblown.
> Listening to the Dave alone with the Hi-fi filter on vs off made a pretty big difference to me.And since it's recommended to use the M-scaler with Hi-fi filter off...adding even more RF noise would make the sound even brighter i assume



let me know how you get on when you connect your DAVE to your sirius block please my DAVE still several weeks off yet ....cannot wait missing it out my system following the demo


----------



## adrianm

mbj666 said:


> let me know how you get on when you connect your DAVE to your sirius block please my DAVE still several weeks off yet ....cannot wait missing it out my system following the demo


Will do, unfortunately my DAVE is also a few weeks away  Can barely wait.In the same boat after the last Demo i had.


----------



## ubs28 (Jul 29, 2020)

AndrewOld said:


> If the M Scaler with the stock cables doesn’t blow you away, if you don’t think immediately that you have never heard anything like it before, if you don’t instantly hear and feel an order or magnitude more power, more coherence, more reality, more tangibility, more solidity, more reality in your music then forget about it. The whole RF thing is preposterously overblown, in some cases by people with vested commercial interests, in other cases by people with no technical knowledge.



It is not overblown. I also picked this up last year when i had a Mscaler for the weekend. I did hear differences between the Chord Dave standalone and Dave + Mscaler, but I disliked the brighter sound which I blamed on some kind of noise entering the signal which was not there in the first place.

So I did not buy it in the end as I considered it as a design flaw. (maybe it can be fixed with doing alot of tweaks, but I am not interested in that. I rather keep my setup as simple as possible)

If Chord fixes this, I might reconsider buying the Mscaler.


----------



## AndrewOld

adrianm said:


> Well i'm not sure what to expect since i've heard the TT2 with and without the M-scaler, for a few minutes it was an upgrade,sure , but to me it still paled compared to DAVE without the M-scaler. I was so convinced and excited that i forgot to  test DAVE with HMS , i just kept listening to it until it was time to leave  .
> I noticed you were looking for a solution to neatly stack Dave and Hms, did you end up finding one? I'm also in the "no way im paying Choral ensemble  money " camp.


Ha! The Choral stand is simply hideous. No I didnt end up buying a stand, I just used the furniture I had. My DAVE is on a small card table with my music netbook next to it, and my M Scaler is on a little bookshelf/table nearby. I got a Poweradd battery to see what all the nonsense about RF was about and that is near the M Scaler so I can easily switch to battery power when I can be bothered. In hindsight, looking to stack the M Scaler and DAVE probably isn’t a good idea because the cables constrain you, unless you buy short cables which may have other issues. But the cables Chord supply can have flakey connections. These from Farnell are more reliable.
https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-signal/psg00541/bnc-plug-to-plug-1m/dp/AV14130#
https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-signal/psg00542/bnc-to-bnc-plug-gold-2m/dp/AV14131


----------



## naynay

AndrewOld said:


> Just can’t believe that four cables are as expensive to make as one M Scaler


They aren't I have made them for £200 a cable.


----------



## adrianm

naynay said:


> They aren't I have made them for £200 a cable.


Yeah i saw your post, i would assume you need a certain type of ferrites to match the frequency of the RF noise ,which is in theory what justifies the cost of the Wave cables. Have you tried experimenting with different types of ferrites?


----------



## adrianm (Jul 29, 2020)

AndrewOld said:


> Ha! The Choral stand is simply hideous. No I didnt end up buying a stand, I just used the furniture I had. My DAVE is on a small card table with my music netbook next to it, and my M Scaler is on a little bookshelf/table nearby. I got a Poweradd battery to see what all the nonsense about RF was about and that is near the M Scaler so I can easily switch to battery power when I can be bothered. In hindsight, looking to stack the M Scaler and DAVE probably isn’t a good idea because the cables constrain you, unless you buy short cables which may have other issues. But the cables Chord supply can have flakey connections. These from Farnell are more reliable.
> https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-signal/psg00541/bnc-plug-to-plug-1m/dp/AV14130#
> https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-signal/psg00542/bnc-to-bnc-plug-gold-2m/dp/AV14131


I can put them both on my desk , but all this M-scaler stuff makes "The ultimate Chord Experience " a bit like buying a Ferrari from Ikea


----------



## ubs28 (Jul 29, 2020)

Let’s not forget the additional Chord 2Go and Chord 2U (or whatever name it is) to have a modern 2020 setup 

I think for the Chord Dave 2, they should integrate most of these modules into 1 unit rather than having so many modules.


----------



## adrianm

ubs28 said:


> Let’s not forget the additional Chord 2Go and Chord 2U (or whatever name it is) to have a modern 2020 setup
> 
> I think for the Chord Dave 2, they should integrate most of these modules into 1 unit rather than having so many modules.


Nah i'm fine with my gaming pc streaming Tidal to Dave


----------



## ubs28 (Jul 29, 2020)

adrianm said:


> Nah i'm fine with my gaming pc streaming Tidal to Dave



But I doubt it is the best sound quality wise.


----------



## iamoneagain

ubs28 said:


> It is not overblown. I also picked this up last year when i had a Mscaler for the weekend. I did hear differences between the Chord Dave standalone and Dave + Mscaler, but I disliked the brighter sound which I blamed on some kind of noise entering the signal which was not there in the first place.
> 
> So I did not buy it in the end as I considered it as a design flaw. (maybe it can be fixed with doing alot of tweaks, but I am not interested in that. I rather keep my setup as simple as possible)
> 
> If Chord fixes this, I might reconsider buying the Mscaler.



I guess it depends on the listener. Seemed most people were amazed by the mscaler when it first came out and only a few complaints about brightness. But that’s not to say it’s not a problem but most aren’t bothered.

Not sure if design flaw or type of power supply that comes with it. My understanding that’s what’s causing the RFI and the mscaler doesn’t have anything to block it from passing thru. The fancy cables or optical converter will remove it or a cheap battery in place of the power supply.

Since original sound didn’t bother me, I certainly wouldn’t pay over $1000 to fix it. That money was better spent on headphone cable.

But in the end I get it. The RFI noise shouldn’t be there and it does effect the sound enough for some not to even use it.


----------



## naynay

adrianm said:


> Yeah i saw your post, i would assume you need a certain type of ferrites to match the frequency of the RF noise ,which is in theory what justifies the cost of the Wave cables. Have you tried experimenting with different types of ferrites?


There are only two cylindrical ferrite cores available at 28.5 mm Length, 8 mm ID, 16 mm OD which are the size used so just look at the frequency range.


----------



## AndrewOld

I have it on good authority that taking hydroxychloroquine will make it sound a whole lot better. Better than better. Beautiful. Take some. What have you got to lose?


----------



## adrianm

ubs28 said:


> But I doubt it is the best sound quality wise.


Well the few tests i ran showed no significant differences between sources feeding the Dave , or my old dac for that matter , so i'm not really buying into the streamer thing  .I'll happily run more tests once i have it though


----------



## Jawed

mbj666 said:


> interesting on the RFI front, can see now why some people buy the big custom hifi cable DC3 units to power their DAVE now /or the expensive Shunyata  NR cables/ or the USB regens/converters before the DAVE.


DAVE is minimally sensitive to be honest. Other stuff, particularly Naim, is easy to spoil though.

DAVE might object to being near a Naim transformer in a power amp or power supply though, since those are big and well, they cause problems in pure Naim systems, let alone anything else.

DAVE will probably upset your preamp, or SNAXO if you have one, if it's close. If you put DAVE in a "brain" rack, then it needs to be far from anything else there. You'll probably want a two shelf gap there.

M Scaler, when you get it, should be far away from everything as it is a bit like an RF bomb going off, continuously. At least 2 feet. It's the kind of thing that you can park on the floor, way off from the rest of the system.


----------



## mbj666

Jawed said:


> DAVE is minimally sensitive to be honest. Other stuff, particularly Naim, is easy to spoil though.
> 
> DAVE might object to being near a Naim transformer in a power amp or power supply though, since those are big and well, they cause problems in pure Naim systems, let alone anything else.
> 
> ...



thanks for the advice especially on the Mscaler spacing (in hindsight had it far too close to my DAVE/pre-amp  

also had DAVE on top shelf which again may be too close to the pre-amp 

will do some experimenting once i get my DAVE on rack setup/positioning


----------



## adrianm

mbj666 said:


> thanks for the advice especially on the Mscaler spacing (in hindsight had it far too close to my DAVE/pre-amp
> 
> also had DAVE on top shelf which again may be too close to the pre-amp
> 
> will do some experimenting once i get my DAVE on rack setup/positioning


We might as well put in in a lead safe  Chord gear , now with superpowers


----------



## Malcyg

I think some of these alarmist comments about Chord DAC’s are a bit over exaggerated and generally just a question of good practice in any system setup.


----------



## endre83

Aren't there numbers, measures for the RF radiation output of the MScaler?

Isn't the aluminium case supposed to block that away?

Sorr for the noob questions..


----------



## AndrewOld

endre83 said:


> Aren't there numbers, measures for the RF radiation output of the MScaler?
> 
> Isn't the aluminium case supposed to block that away?
> 
> Sorr for the noob questions..


Don’t apologize, it’s an absolutely valid question. And one that is never answered by those who claim that the M Scaler radiates more RF than Wrotham.


----------



## Arniesb

ubs28 said:


> It is not overblown. I also picked this up last year when i had a Mscaler for the weekend. I did hear differences between the Chord Dave standalone and Dave + Mscaler, but I disliked the brighter sound which I blamed on some kind of noise entering the signal which was not there in the first place.
> 
> So I did not buy it in the end as I considered it as a design flaw. (maybe it can be fixed with doing alot of tweaks, but I am not interested in that. I rather keep my setup as simple as possible)
> 
> If Chord fixes this, I might reconsider buying the Mscaler.


My dealer told me not to choose m scaler or most of the reclockers with bright headphones like Utopia, HEkse  and HD800S.
I think it is because it enhance character of partnering equipment...
Would like to hear it with a system that has solid bass foundation.


----------



## adrianm

endre83 said:


> Aren't there numbers, measures for the RF radiation output of the MScaler?
> 
> Isn't the aluminium case supposed to block that away?
> 
> Sorr for the noob questions..


I wouldn't worry about it, the main way it enters the Dave is through the inputs.I'm sure there are measurements ,as the EU has strict guidelines on how much RF/EMI an electronic device can generate.
   Just be sure to get yours before Brexit LOL.


----------



## iamoneagain (Jul 30, 2020)

Also don’t people with the TT2 sometimes end up stacking the mscaler?  I thought only RFi problem was directly thru the bnc connection, not the box itself. I have my Dave on a glass monitor stand that sits about 5 inches above the mscaler. My bnc cables are long enough that I could move the unit to the floor but looks better underneath.


----------



## Malcyg

iamoneagain said:


> Also don’t people with the TT2 sometimes end up stacking the mscaler?  I thought only RFi problem was directly thru the bnc connection, not the box itself. I have my Dave on a glass monitor stand that sits about 5 inches above the mscaler. My bnc cables are long enough that I could move the unit to the floor but looks better underneath.



Agree, I wouldn‘t worry about it. I’ve lost count of how many photo’s I’ve seen of high end systems at trade shows etc using a stacked BluDave.


----------



## Jawed

iamoneagain said:


> I have my Dave on a glass monitor stand that sits about 5 inches above the mscaler. My bnc cables are long enough that I could move the unit to the floor but looks better underneath.


Also, while you're experimenting, make sure you don't have a server or laptop sat just a few inches above DAVE 

I made the mistake of placing HMS about 5 inches below DAVE until I thought "I wonder...". I believed the cases would provide enough shielding, but I was wrong.

Luckily HMS with its automatic video mode and automatic input switching means you can hide it away and forget about it, in the same way as you can its power supply.


----------



## Amberlamps

AndrewOld said:


> I have it on good authority that taking hydroxychloroquine will make it sound a whole lot better. Better than better. Beautiful. Take some. What have you got to lose?



I disagree.

As Trump still sounds like schiit no matter how many hydroxychloroquine pills he takes.


----------



## Mediahound (Jul 31, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> Also don’t people with the TT2 sometimes end up stacking the mscaler?  I thought only RFi problem was directly thru the bnc connection, not the box itself. I have my Dave on a glass monitor stand that sits about 5 inches above the mscaler. My bnc cables are long enough that I could move the unit to the floor but looks better underneath.



I stack TT2 right on top of the M Scaler and have no issues. I've thought about moving M Scaler down to floor level or something, but then I'd miss being able to see the sample rate indicator LED, which I refer to a lot.


----------



## mbj666

after lot of looking at powerblocks, heard lot of good things about the audioquest niagara 1200 anyone used this with their DAVE / HMS at all??  thanks


----------



## Kirklandia

mbj666 said:


> after lot of looking at powerblocks, heard lot of good things about the audioquest niagara 1200 anyone used this with their DAVE / HMS at all??  thanks


Yes. Any questions?


----------



## jcn3

mbj666 said:


> after lot of looking at powerblocks, heard lot of good things about the audioquest niagara 1200 anyone used this with their DAVE / HMS at all??  thanks



yes -- using the 1200 with my dave and parasound jc2.  very well made product -- i recommend for front end components for sure.

i changed a lot of things in my system at one time, so can't really attribute the incredible quietness in my system to any one device.


----------



## mbj666

Kirklandia said:


> Yes. Any questions?



how did you find it sound quality wise when adding the DAVE and MScaler to it, did it reduce noise/digital harshness???


----------



## mbj666

jcn3 said:


> yes -- using the 1200 with my dave and parasound jc2.  very well made product -- i recommend for front end components for sure.
> 
> i changed a lot of things in my system at one time, so can't really attribute the incredible quietness in my system to any one device.



good to know, do you run your amp from the 1200 aswell??


----------



## Lucky87

Yeah I also use the 1200 with the Dave and I find it helps a little when using the Dave in “DAC MODE”, but if you use the Dave in Digital Preamp Mode it sounds more natural and analog sound to me.  The 1200 also made my Vinyl sound more quiet as well.
I also like it because you can have it sit in the normal position when using or upright or looking down to plug into makes it easy to use.
But whatever you do on this thread is ask what power cable to buy because your answer will be “Buy a Chord M Scaler first then we will answer that question” 🙈


----------



## jcn3 (Aug 4, 2020)

mbj666 said:


> good to know, do you run your amp from the 1200 aswell??



no i don't.  it would take a 15' power cord from the amp to the 1200 to accomplish that.  my dealer recommended a clarus duet conditioner for the amp (located right next to the amp).

if i could have put the amp next to the rest of the equipment, i probably would have gone for a niagara 3000 -- it seems to be designed with higher powered amps than the 1200.


----------



## AndrewOld

Lucky87 said:


> But whatever you do on this thread is ask what power cable to buy because your answer will be “Buy a Chord M Scaler first then we will answer that question” 🙈


Actually, the answer is “Buy a Chord M Scaler first then you won’t be asking that question” !


----------



## mbj666

jcn3 said:


> no i don't.  it would take a 15' power cord from the amp to the 1200 to accomplish that.  my dealer recommended a clarus duet conditioner for the amp (located right next to the amp).
> 
> if i could have put the amp next to the rest of the equipment, i probably would have gone for a niagara 3000 -- it seems to be designed with higher powered amps than the 1200.



Wow 15' a long run for the amp, would have to sell a kidney to buy a power cable that long  
Had a look at niagra 3000 quite a jump in price to that one from the 1200 but see has of a power amp focus as you say


----------



## jcn3

mbj666 said:


> Wow 15' a long run for the amp, would have to sell a kidney to buy a power cable that long
> Had a look at niagra 3000 quite a jump in price to that one from the 1200 but see has of a power amp focus as you say



yes -- in my case, since i bought both the 1200 and the clarus duet, the incremental cost of a 3000 wouldn't have been that much more (in relative audio terms).


----------



## adrianm

mbj666 said:


> Wow 15' a long run for the amp, would have to sell a kidney to buy a power cable that long
> Had a look at niagra 3000 quite a jump in price to that one from the 1200 but see has of a power amp focus as you say


You should also consider the Isotek Sirius/Aquarius and up.I assume it would also tackle the M-scaler RF noise better than ferrites on cables.


----------



## adrianm

adrianm said:


> You should also consider the Isotek Sirius/Aquarius and up.I assume it would also tackle the M-scaler RF noise better than ferrites on cables.


There's also the Russ Andrews range ,that while i can't personally vouch for , ends up a lot cheaper at like 200 euros for a 2 socket mains filter.


----------



## Triode User

Lucky87 said:


> Yeah I also use the 1200 with the Dave and I find it helps a little when using the Dave in “DAC MODE”, but if you use the Dave in Digital Preamp Mode it sounds more natural and analog sound to me. The 1200 also made my Vinyl sound more quiet as well.



There is no difference in the outputs from DacMode and AmpMode apart from one being variable volume and the other being fixed volume. The output is the same. If the Dave screen shows the same volume then it IS the same output signal no matter whether in DacMode or AmpMode. Don’t let your mind play tricks on you.


----------



## Kirklandia

mbj666 said:


> how did you find it sound quality wise when adding the DAVE and MScaler to it, did it reduce noise/digital harshness???


Yes to both. Very quiet background now and much improved bass/low end texture and impact. I later added Wave Streams so noise/harshness was further reduced.


----------



## Lucky87

Triode User said:


> There is no difference in the outputs from DacMode and AmpMode apart from one being variable volume and the other being fixed volume. The output is the same. If the Dave screen shows the same volume then it IS the same output signal no matter whether in DacMode or AmpMode. Don’t let your mind play tricks on you.


That's weird unless it is my AS3000 playing tricks on me because when using DAC MODE I am using LINE IN via RCA and when using Dave as a DIGITAL PREAMP MODE I am on MAIN DIRECT input still RCA but shut's off all internal components from headphone section, tone controls etc..  So I am not hearing the Dave Change it is my AMP within less internal = more analog sound.. All I know it is a win win because it sounds great.


----------



## Triode User

Lucky87 said:


> That's weird unless it is my AS3000 playing tricks on me because when using DAC MODE I am using LINE IN via RCA and when using Dave as a DIGITAL PREAMP MODE I am on MAIN DIRECT input still RCA but shut's off all internal components from headphone section, tone controls etc..  So I am not hearing the Dave Change it is my AMP within less internal = more analog sound.. All I know it is a win win because it sounds great.



All that Dac mode does is lock the Dave output level to -3dB. If you have Dave in preamp mode and set the output to -3dB then the two are identical in both loudness and audio quality. It must be your AS3000 circuits or your ears but like you say, win win.


----------



## mbj666

Kirklandia said:


> Yes to both. Very quiet background now and much improved bass/low end texture and impact. I later added Wave Streams so noise/harshness was further reduced.



did you place the DAVE / MSCALER in the filtered sockets i assume ? (just checking as trying to work out if the 1200 has enough high current sockets for my system)


----------



## JTbbb

Triode User said:


> All that Dac mode does is lock the Dave output level to -3dB. If you have Dave in preamp mode and set the output to -3dB then the two are identical in both loudness and audio quality. It must be your AS3000 circuits or your ears but like you say, win win.



Hi Triode, this is very interesting what you are advocating. Please forgive my questioning this as I know you know Rob Watts quite well. So, it is an absolute certainty that whether you are in Dac or Preamp mode, the signal is going through the exact same circuitry, and not bypassing any digital volume control when in Dac mode?


----------



## Triode User (Aug 6, 2020)

JTbbb said:


> Hi Triode, this is very interesting what you are advocating. Please forgive my questioning this as I know you know Rob Watts quite well. So, it is an absolute certainty that whether you are in Dac or Preamp mode, the signal is going through the exact same circuitry, and not bypassing any digital volume control when in Dac mode?



Yes, absolutely certain. No difference in signal path. Both go through the same digital volume control. When the volume is set to -3dB in pre amp mode it is EXACTLY the same signal as the Dac mode output.


----------



## miketlse

JTbbb said:


> Hi Triode, this is very interesting what you are advocating. Please forgive my questioning this as I know you know Rob Watts quite well. So, it is an absolute certainty that whether you are in Dac or Preamp mode, the signal is going through the exact same circuitry, and not bypassing any digital volume control when in Dac mode?


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/post-14439981


----------



## ubs28 (Aug 7, 2020)

Is there anything wrong with Audirvana handling the MQA decoding considering that Chord does not support MQA? If not, the sound quality will the same as a DAC that support MQA natively?


----------



## Triode User

ubs28 said:


> Is there anything wrong with Audirvana handling the MQA decoding considering that Chord does not support MQA? If not, the sound quality will the same as a DAC that support MQA natively?



I changed from Tidal to Qobuz to escape MQA. Just feed the Dave unmolested digital files and it will shine.


----------



## ubs28 (Aug 7, 2020)

Triode User said:


> I changed from Tidal to Qobuz to escape MQA. Just feed the Dave unmolested digital files and it will shine.



I got Tidal for free so I am trying to use it. So I cancelled my other music subscriptions.

However after doing a few tests, it seems that Tidal has a strange “digital” sound. I have the same songs on other platforms and it doesn’t sound like that.

But it is for free, so I cannot complain.


----------



## adrianm

ubs28 said:


> I got Tidal for free so I am trying to use it. So I cancelled my other music subscriptions.
> 
> However after doing a few tests, it seems that Tidal has a strange “digital” sound. I have the same songs on other platforms and it doesn’t sound like that.
> 
> But if it is for free, so I cannot complain.


Might be worth a try :
https://www.whathifi.com/news/free-amazon-music-hd-for-90-days-no-catch-no-purchase-necessary


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> I changed from Tidal to Qobuz to escape MQA. Just feed the Dave unmolested digital files and it will shine.


Is MQA a problem for Dave or just "bad " in general?  Some of the stuff sounds pretty good,though it's probably the mastering,not their algorithm claims.


----------



## ubs28

adrianm said:


> Might be worth a try :
> https://www.whathifi.com/news/free-amazon-music-hd-for-90-days-no-catch-no-purchase-necessary



Thanks. I did not know about that one.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> Is MQA a problem for Dave or just "bad " in general?  Some of the stuff sounds pretty good,though it's probably the mastering,not their algorithm claims.



No, Dave is not the issue. Have a search on here for why Rob Watts has no intention of incorporating MQA compatibility into Chord DACs.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> No, Dave is not the issue. Have a search on here for why Rob Watts has no intention of incorporating MQA compatibility into Chord DACs.


Will do, i assume it's the same problem everyone has with mqa, but for non-mqa content there should be no difference between qobuz and tidal.


----------



## musickid

With non mqa music i find rbcd identical with roon tidal vs roon qobuz. However mqa files sound muffled, lacking in definition and the leading edges i.e. rise and fall of piano notes as an example no longer distinct from each other. I initially thought mqa was warmer and more pleasing till i realised what was going on.


----------



## adrianm

musickid said:


> With non mqa music i find rbcd identical with roon tidal vs roon qobuz. However mqa files sound muffled, lacking in definition and the leading edges i.e. rise and fall of piano notes as an example no longer distinct from each other. I initially thought mqa was warmer and more pleasing till i realised what was going on.


I'll have to check once my Dave gets here, but still i think that's hardly a reason to move away since most, if not all mqa tracks have at least one equivalent cd quality version


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> I'll have to check once my Dave gets here, but still i think that's hardly a reason to move away since most, if not all mqa tracks have at least one equivalent cd quality version



This is not true on some newer releases which is why I switched from Tidal to Qobuz. Qobuz also has more hires albums than Tidals has MQA since a few labels never jumped on board the MQA wagon. Qobuz catalog has also greatly improved over the last 6 months.

But Rob’s advice is just to stay away from MQA whether folder or unfolded.  His WTA1 upsampler works best with the original files no matter if using the Dave straight or with mscaler.


----------



## ubs28

But given that I got Tidal for free, how should I best use it with the Chord Dave? Let Audirvana handle the MQA decoding or just don’t do it and let the DAC handle everything (despite not supporting MQA decoding)?


----------



## Triode User

ubs28 said:


> But given that I got Tidal for free, how should I best use it with the Chord Dave? Let Audirvana handle the MQA decoding or just don’t do it and let the DAC handle everything (despite not supporting MQA decoding)?



Assuming you are getting cd quality (44.1/16) or above from Tidal then I personally would disable everything to do with MQA and just feed the bare signal to Dave.


----------



## adrianm

ubs28 said:


> But given that I got Tidal for free, how should I best use it with the Chord Dave? Let Audirvana handle the MQA decoding or just don’t do it and let the DAC handle everything (despite not supporting MQA decoding)?


Yeah i'm kinda in the same boat,only tidal is available here and it's twice as cheap as other options while also not requiring me to use vpn's.
   I assume getting a streamer to do the full unfold and output it to Dave is useless since from what Rob says the problem is in the MQA process itself, correct?


----------



## Mediahound

ubs28 said:


> But given that I got Tidal for free



How did you get Tidal for free? Enquiring minds want to know.


----------



## adrianm

Mediahound said:


> How did you get Tidal for free? Enquiring minds want to know.


Probably someone paying for his like i'm paying for a family plan that others are using


----------



## Gadget67

Mediahound said:


> How did you get Tidal for free? Enquiring minds want to know.


Audirvana offers a free Tidal trial for a few months.  Here’s a link to the Audirvana explanation.
https://audirvana.com/hi-res-streaming-services/


----------



## adrianm

Gadget67 said:


> Audirvana offers a free Tidal trial for a few months.  Here’s a link to the Audirvana explanation.
> https://audirvana.com/hi-res-streaming-services/


I tried Audirvana for a couple of weeks and felt it sounded worse than the Tidal desktop. With both Mqa and Non-Mqa stuff


----------



## Gadget67

adrianm said:


> I tried Audirvana for a couple of weeks and felt it sounded worse than the Tidal desktop. With both Mqa and Non-Mqa stuff


Oh, that’s just the free trial; I hear it sounds better when you start paying for it


----------



## iamoneagain (Aug 8, 2020)

adrianm said:


> Yeah i'm kinda in the same boat,only tidal is available here and it's twice as cheap as other options while also not requiring me to use vpn's.
> I assume getting a streamer to do the full unfold and output it to Dave is useless since from what Rob says the problem is in the MQA process itself, correct?



Correct. If using Tidal just avoid MQA if you can. MQA will sound good but you won’t be getting the best out of Chord by just using the cd quality version.

Here’s link to Rob’s take on MQA:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-65#post-14414362


----------



## adrianm

Gadget67 said:


> Oh, that’s just the free trial; I hear it sounds better when you start paying for it


As with all things audiophile


----------



## ubs28

iamoneagain said:


> Correct. If using Tidal just avoid MQA if you can. MQA will sound good but you won’t be getting the best out of Chord by just using the cd quality version.
> 
> Here’s link to Rob’s take on MQA:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-65#post-14414362



I see, thanks. Perhaps the aliasing and distortion at 20khz what Rob is talking about is what I was picking up as switching MQA decoding in Audivrana did not fix the “digital sound” of Tidal.

I will experiment with avoiding MQA all together to see if this fixes it.


----------



## iamoneagain

ubs28 said:


> I see, thanks. Perhaps the aliasing and distortion at 20khz what Rob is talking about is what I was picking up as switching MQA decoding in Audivrana did not fix the “digital sound” of Tidal.
> 
> I will experiment with avoiding MQA all together to see if this fixes it.



I’d also avoid any upsampling with Audirvana. Let Chord handle that part.


----------



## edwardsean

I've used Audirvana in the past before my current system. I liked quite a lot. To my ears it is significantly better than Tidal's native app. I don't know the situation on Windows, but for Mac direct mode was defeated by security measures in recent Mac OS versions. 

If you search online there is a way to get it back if you are comfortable with disabling OS X root security features. Direct mode provides another small bump in SQ. I think anything you can do to reduce system processing is worth it when you are using a computer for a server.


----------



## ClicketEKlack

iamoneagain said:


> This is not true on some newer releases which is why I switched from Tidal to Qobuz. Qobuz also has more hires albums than Tidals has MQA since a few labels never jumped on board the MQA wagon. Qobuz catalog has also greatly improved over the last 6 months.
> 
> But Rob’s advice is just to stay away from MQA whether folder or unfolded.  His WTA1 upsampler works best with the original files no matter if using the Dave straight or with mscaler.



If MQA is so horrendous, I'm curious as to why ultra-high end manufacturers like DCS, MSB, PS Audio, and Berkeley Audio, all of whom produce DACs that are as well-regarded or better than anything Chord produces, include MQA unfolding. Presumably these companies can pick and choose whatever formats they want to support, as their clientele are exceedingly picky about sound can afford the best sources money can buy. Is Rob Watts suggesting that these DACs are producing crappy sound? Or offering garbage tech that doesn't actually work? I get that he has strong feelings about MQA, but I suspect there's more nuance to the story than the MQA-as-bad-tech-and-evil-business-conspiracy offerings. Personally, I listen to a lot of MQA Tidal files via a Topping D90 DAC and they sound great -- slightly better than Qobuz Hi-Res. When I'm able to audition gear in person, I may upgrade to a DAVE or something of its ilk. I'm really curious to do an A/B.


----------



## radnor

anyone have extensive experience with mDAVE VS mTT2??? Difference worth the upgrade?


----------



## ecwl

ClicketEKlack said:


> If MQA is so horrendous, I'm curious as to why ultra-high end manufacturers like DCS, MSB, PS Audio, and Berkeley Audio, all of whom produce DACs that are as well-regarded or better than anything Chord produces, include MQA unfolding. Presumably these companies can pick and choose whatever formats they want to support, as their clientele are exceedingly picky about sound can afford the best sources money can buy. Is Rob Watts suggesting that these DACs are producing crappy sound? Or offering garbage tech that doesn't actually work? I get that he has strong feelings about MQA, but I suspect there's more nuance to the story than the MQA-as-bad-tech-and-evil-business-conspiracy offerings. Personally, I listen to a lot of MQA Tidal files via a Topping D90 DAC and they sound great -- slightly better than Qobuz Hi-Res. When I'm able to audition gear in person, I may upgrade to a DAVE or something of its ilk. I'm really curious to do an A/B.


My personal take on the matter is that other companies also recognize that there is a lack of accuracy in the reproduction in transients in 44.1kHz using standard upsampling filters. Since they are not able to make FPGA’s to do the long tap length upsampling that Chord DACs do, they are trying to come up with a workaround by using a short tap length MQA filter that plays back MQA encoded music. Ultimately, there is no free lunch. When I listen to MQA files, with Chord DACs or MQA DACs, I actually find that while some notes have more accurate transient responses (Guitar string plucks, drum strikes, piano strikes, hand clapping), others have slightly smeared transients. In fact, for me, it is quite discombobulating, because I’m used to the more accurate transients for every note via Chord DACs. 
Now many people, particularly fans of MQA, disagree with me. If you enjoy your DACs and your MQA music, who am I to question how you spend your money and enjoy your music. But since the question was asked, here’s my two cents


----------



## Triode User

radnor said:


> anyone have extensive experience with mDAVE VS mTT2??? Difference worth the upgrade?



I owned both at the same time and so was able to play side by side over a prolonged period. 

To my ears the upgrade in sound quality is easily worth the cost.


----------



## ClicketEKlack

ecwl said:


> My personal take on the matter is that other companies also recognize that there is a lack of accuracy in the reproduction in transients in 44.1kHz using standard upsampling filters. Since they are not able to make FPGA’s to do the long tap length upsampling that Chord DACs do, they are trying to come up with a workaround by using a short tap length MQA filter that plays back MQA encoded music. Ultimately, there is no free lunch. When I listen to MQA files, with Chord DACs or MQA DACs, I actually find that while some notes have more accurate transient responses (Guitar string plucks, drum strikes, piano strikes, hand clapping), others have slightly smeared transients. In fact, for me, it is quite discombobulating, because I’m used to the more accurate transients for every note via Chord DACs.
> Now many people, particularly fans of MQA, disagree with me. If you enjoy your DACs and your MQA music, who am I to question how you spend your money and enjoy your music. But since the question was asked, here’s my two cents



Thanks -- I appreciate the thoughtful reply. I really am just curious. I'm enjoying a mid-fi system right now, hoping to possibly upgrade down the road, and just trying to educate myself about the options out there.


----------



## radnor

Triode User said:


> I owned both at the same time and so was able to play side by side over a prolonged period.
> 
> To my ears the upgrade in sound quality is easily worth the cost.


What’s the delta?  20% bump in tonal mass, stage, realism?  Greater than 20%? Just a guess would be nice.


----------



## audio_1

ClicketEKlack said:


> If MQA is so horrendous, I'm curious as to why ultra-high end manufacturers like DCS, MSB, PS Audio, and Berkeley Audio, all of whom produce DACs that are as well-regarded or better than anything Chord produces, include MQA unfolding. Presumably these companies can pick and choose whatever formats they want to support, as their clientele are exceedingly picky about sound can afford the best sources money can buy. Is Rob Watts suggesting that these DACs are producing crappy sound? Or offering garbage tech that doesn't actually work? I get that he has strong feelings about MQA, but I suspect there's more nuance to the story than the MQA-as-bad-tech-and-evil-business-conspiracy offerings. Personally, I listen to a lot of MQA Tidal files via a Topping D90 DAC and they sound great -- slightly better than Qobuz Hi-Res. When I'm able to audition gear in person, I may upgrade to a DAVE or something of its ilk. I'm really curious to do an A/B.



Marketing, that's the main reason. Another must have feature in their opinion. Presumably the other manufactures also don't understand MQA's short comings. The DACs listed may be more expensive than Dave and the M Scaler, but I don't think they're better.


----------



## adrianm

radnor said:


> What’s the delta?  20% bump in tonal mass, stage, realism?  Greater than 20%? Just a guess would be nice.


When i auditioned the DAVE vs TT2+Mscaler with my Z1R i thought there was just no comparison , so much so that i  even forgot adding the M-scaler to the DAVE for a listen. I realized that after i left the store.To me the TT2 kinda sounded like my Sony TA-ZH1ES and the DAVE was a completely different beast,better in every way.
   Sounded a lot more real, soundstage may have been slightly smaller but separation and layering was a lot better, resolution was better too, as was timing and positioning.
   Gonna give it a couple of months after i get it before adding to M-scaler to compare.


----------



## adrianm

radnor said:


> What’s the delta?  20% bump in tonal mass, stage, realism?  Greater than 20%? Just a guess would be nice.


Hard to cuantify. For me the thought was " No way the price of that (TT2+HMS) adds up to that (DAVE)". And i had just gotten my previous dac ,the Sony TA, and was over the moon with it, wasn't even considering upgrading for a year or so.  I didn't really consider the TT2+HMS to be an upgrade to it. Next week the Sony went back to Amazon (3 month return window due to Covid, so had plenty of time with it).
  Maybe if i had harder to drive headphones, like Abyss or Susvara the delta might have been different. The M-Scaler did close the gap a bit but it proved to me that there's a lot more to it than taps. That analogue sound of the Dave is just addictive.
    Depending on how much the M-scaler influences that i might just stick with solo Dave.


----------



## adrianm

At one point Rob claimed the Dave is immune to Jitter via usb. I assume that adding an M-scaler and using the BNC inputs that "immunity" goes out the window,right?


----------



## JTbbb

radnor said:


> anyone have extensive experience with mDAVE VS mTT2??? Difference worth the upgrade?



Did this in error, cannot see how to delete. So am posting to get shot of it.


----------



## radnor

adrianm said:


> Hard to cuantify. For me the thought was " No way the price of that (TT2+HMS) adds up to that (DAVE)". And i had just gotten my previous dac ,the Sony TA, and was over the moon with it, wasn't even considering upgrading for a year or so.  I didn't really consider the TT2+HMS to be an upgrade to it. Next week the Sony went back to Amazon (3 month return window due to Covid, so had plenty of time with it).
> Maybe if i had harder to drive headphones, like Abyss or Susvara the delta might have been different. The M-Scaler did close the gap a bit but it proved to me that there's a lot more to it than taps. That analogue sound of the Dave is just addictive.
> Depending on how much the M-scaler influences that i might just stick with solo Dave.


I had the TAZ.   mTT2 is substantially better.... TBH I found the TAZ only marginal  better than mojopoly Driving balanced Z1R.... maby 10%.  Hugo2go much better than taz.... 40%.


----------



## adrianm

radnor said:


> I had the TAZ.   mTT2 is substantially better.... TBH I found the TAZ only marginal  better than mojopoly Driving balanced Z1R.... maby 10%.  Hugo2go much better than taz.... 40%.


I actually found it to be at least on par with the TT2 for the 10-15 minutes i compared them, once i heard Dave though everything else was just meh.


----------



## radnor

adrianm said:


> I actually found it to be at least on par with the TT2 for the 10-15 minutes i compared them, once i heard Dave though everything else was just meh.


did you compare at home or in a store? i had them both at home... the delta was significant.


----------



## adrianm

radnor said:


> did you compare at home or in a store? i had them both at home... the delta was significant.


In the store with 3-4 tracks. Though it was the same with the Dave and that delta over both of them was huge. In my second Dave audition comparing them lasted for 10-15 minutes. After that i only wanted to listen to Dave for the next an hour and a half.


----------



## x RELIC x

adrianm said:


> At one point Rob claimed the Dave is immune to Jitter via usb. I assume that adding an M-scaler and using the BNC inputs that "immunity" goes out the window,right?



the Jitter ‘immunity’ is for all inputs. One would require inputting a source with an unreasonable amount of jitter to make a difference. As he’s said many times, optical is the gold standard with no concern for jitter. 



Rob Watts said:


> It's frequency locked, not phase locked. So over seconds, it will adjust the created word clock; but will completely ignore any jitter. We can see this on the jitter plots on the DAC; and if I add 2uS of source jitter, there is absolutely no change in measurements. 2uS is over a thousand times bigger than typical source jitter....





Rob Watts said:


> Yes. Toslink is the gold standard, and the target to hit with USB - assuming the toslink is bit perfect (and if it's not you will hear the drop-outs easily).


----------



## adrianm

x RELIC x said:


> the Jitter ‘immunity’ is for all inputs. One would require inputting a source with an unreasonable amount of jitter to make a difference. As he’s said many times, optical is the gold standard with no concern for jitter.


Thanks, So why do people here feel the need to use optical reclockers ? Or hear differences between sources?


----------



## ecwl

adrianm said:


> Thanks, So why do people here feel the need to use optical reclockers ? Or hear differences between sources?


Specifically to Chord DACs or other DACs? This is my understanding based on what Rob Watts has said in the past.
For Chord DACs, an optical reclocker has the potential to reduce ground loop leakage current noise (which all DACs are susceptible to).
But for non-Chord DACs, they tend to be more sensitive to jitter because of their inherent DAC architecture. The Chord Pulse Array DAC design is significantly more immune to jitter (and has no noise floor modulation) because it is a constantly switching DAC usually with only at most one element switching and an additional two elements switching simultaneously to balance the change so there is minimal fluctuation in noise level generated by the flip-flops. This is not true with other DACs, e.g. DSD DACs would have switching occur at varying speeds depending on the musical materials; most DAC chip DACs or say dCS Ring DACs would use dynamic element matching with thermometer code but you can still sometimes have a few elements switching at the same time and other times, say 20-30 elements switching at the same time, leading to higher jitter sensitive and more noise floor modulation. Moreover, DAC chip DACs have substrate noise that is jitter sensitive and creates noise floor modulation. Obviously, R2R DACs would be switching to different voltage levels all the time, causing once again more jitter sensitivity and noise floor modulation. So for non-Chord DACs, optical reclockers could potentially reduce ground loop leakage current noise, and reduce the jitter those DACs receive, which would help the inherent flaws in their architecture.


----------



## x RELIC x

adrianm said:


> Thanks, So why do people here feel the need to use optical reclockers ? Or hear differences between sources?



I can’t speak as to why others feel the need to use reclockers, or what improvements they hear (or think they hear as jitter). I merely pointed out that the designer has measured no difference with obscene amounts of jitter due to his DAC architecture, and that it isn’t just related to USB compared to coaxial or optical. It should also be noted that unless a user is specifically measuring jitter between sources then they would have no idea if the differences they hear is from jitter or something else being introduced in to the signal path.


----------



## adrianm

ecwl said:


> Specifically to Chord DACs or other DACs? This is my understanding based on what Rob Watts has said in the past.
> For Chord DACs, an optical reclocker has the potential to reduce ground loop leakage current noise (which all DACs are susceptible to).
> But for non-Chord DACs, they tend to be more sensitive to jitter because of their inherent DAC architecture. The Chord Pulse Array DAC design is significantly more immune to jitter (and has no noise floor modulation) because it is a constantly switching DAC usually with only at most one element switching and an additional two elements switching simultaneously to balance the change so there is minimal fluctuation in noise level generated by the flip-flops. This is not true with other DACs, e.g. DSD DACs would have switching occur at varying speeds depending on the musical materials; most DAC chip DACs or say dCS Ring DACs would use dynamic element matching with thermometer code but you can still sometimes have a few elements switching at the same time and other times, say 20-30 elements switching at the same time, leading to higher jitter sensitive and more noise floor modulation. Moreover, DAC chip DACs have substrate noise that is jitter sensitive and creates noise floor modulation. Obviously, R2R DACs would be switching to different voltage levels all the time, causing once again more jitter sensitivity and noise floor modulation. So for non-Chord DACs, optical reclockers could potentially reduce ground loop leakage current noise, and reduce the jitter those DACs receive, which would help the inherent flaws in their architecture.


Thanks for the explanation


----------



## adrianm

x RELIC x said:


> I can’t speak as to why others feel the need to use reclockers, or what improvements they hear (or think they hear as jitter). I merely pointed out that the designer has measured no difference with obscene amounts of jitter due to his DAC architecture, and that it isn’t just related to USB compared to coaxial or optical. It should also be noted that unless a user is specifically measuring jitter between sources then they would have no idea if the differences they hear is from jitter or something else being introduced in to the signal path.


I see, i saw Rob specifically mention the Usb input on a number of ocasions and i thought it was related to the usb clock being synced to the dac clock. Which is one of the reasons why Usb might be preferable over optical i guess?
   I'm just trying to get an understanding as to why people spend so much money on a ton of extra boxes for a dac that is this well designed. And trying to separate what might actually be worth doing.
    For example in all the tests i've done (in the store) i've yet to hear a difference between sources using the same file and same settings. Even on a lesser dac, at home,between a power hungry gaming pc running tidal and a laptop running on battery power,both via usb. Yet people swear up and down streamers matter. More than injecting noise, or playback software differences, i find it hard to see why.


----------



## Triode User

x RELIC x said:


> I can’t speak as to why others feel the need to use reclockers, or what improvements they hear (or think they hear as jitter). I merely pointed out that the designer has measured no difference with obscene amounts of jitter due to his DAC architecture, and that it isn’t just related to USB compared to coaxial or optical. It should also be noted that unless a user is specifically measuring jitter between sources then they would have no idea if the differences they hear is from jitter or something else being introduced in to the signal path.



I am really not sure whether the reclocking function in the Innuos Phoenix 'reclocker' is the main event or whether some other aspect of what it does is the cause but all I can say is that the Phoenix made a clear and tangible improvement to sound quality when going to Dave or Mscaler by USB from my Innuos Zenith SE. 

And no, it is not added noise artifacts that I am hearing when the Phoenix is added into the chain. I heared a smoother topo end and more detailed bottom end. 

As it happens I did not buy the Phoenix but instead I had a big system shuffle and bought the Innuos Statement which already incorporates the Phoenix circuits and power supplies.



adrianm said:


> I see, i saw Rob specifically mention the Usb input on a number of ocasions and i thought it was related to the usb clock being synced to the dac clock. Which is one of the reasons why Usb might be preferable over optical i guess?
> I'm just trying to get an understanding as to why people spend so much money on a ton of extra boxes for a dac that is this well designed. And trying to separate what might actually be worth doing.
> For example in all the tests i've done (in the store) i've yet to hear a difference between sources using the same file and same settings. Even on a lesser dac, at home,between a power hungry gaming pc running tidal and a laptop running on battery power,both via usb. Yet people swear up and down streamers matter. More than injecting noise, or playback software differences, i find it hard to see why.



I became a convert to the quality of the source when I went to a Hi Fi show a couple of years ago and heard a demonstration by Innuos where they changed between their various servers into a Dave. Since then I have progressively climbed through the Innuos range in my own system.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> I am really not sure whether the reclocking function in the Innuos Phoenix 'reclocker' is the main event or whether some other aspect of what it does is the cause but all I can say is that the Phoenix made a clear and tangible improvement to sound quality when going to Dave or Mscaler by USB from my Innuos Zenith SE.
> 
> And no, it is not added noise artifacts that I am hearing when the Phoenix is added into the chain. I heared a smoother topo end and more detailed bottom end.
> 
> ...


For the love of god this hobby is taking up more time than my actual job. When do people have time to actually listen to music? I think all of this stuff is just extreme nitpicking, even if it does make a slight differences. Maybe my headphones (Z1R) aren't revealing enough, maybe there's a bigger difference on expensive speakers, but mostly i just want to get the Dave (maybe the M-scaler later if it makes that big of a difference) and be done with it.
    Money considerations aside, I'd honestly much rather have a tidy desk instead of 10 different boxes with a ton of cables each, and for what? 10% improvement, if any? 
    At that point i see why the Bartok is appealing to so many people. At least it's a one box solution and it looks pretty.
  I guess the biggest improvement would be M-scaler. Though some have said using an Aries G1 made more of a difference than it. To me using a dedicated streamer is just a solution looking for a problem, i'd much rather use my pc that i'm already using while listening to music than buy and use an ipad to switch tracks. The ease of using a mouse and keyboard outweighs the alleged sound quality gains for me,personally. *  Millennials    *
   That might change if i actually do notice a difference between sources at some point. Would also be nice to have an actual scientific explanation for why they might matter.


----------



## BPED

Hello, I am looking for some advice to solve an issue that arose recently. 
I use my M-Dave as DAC for my headphones set up (amp Riviera, via RCA cables) and as DAC and pre for my speakers set up (active ATC, via XLR).

Until recently I had no issues, just making sure that the speakers were powered off when I used the Riviera and viceversa.
Few days ago the ATC started distorting horribly and after some tests, also using another pre, I realized that it was due to the fact that the Riviera was also hooked via RCA (albeit turned off). Unplugging the RCA cables solved the issue for me. Curiously the contrary doesn't happen and I don't need to unplug the XLR cables when I use the Riviera.
How come that before I never experienced this? Any suggestion to avoid distortion without unplugging the Riviera each time? There must be a way because it worked smoothly for a while...
thanks for your ideas...


----------



## iamoneagain (Aug 10, 2020)

adrianm said:


> For the love of god this hobby is taking up more time than my actual job. When do people have time to actually listen to music? I think all of this stuff is just extreme nitpicking, even if it does make a slight differences. Maybe my headphones (Z1R) aren't revealing enough, maybe there's a bigger difference on expensive speakers, but mostly i just want to get the Dave (maybe the M-scaler later if it makes that big of a difference) and be done with it.
> Money considerations aside, I'd honestly much rather have a tidy desk instead of 10 different boxes with a ton of cables each, and for what? 10% improvement, if any?
> At that point i see why the Bartok is appealing to so many people. At least it's a one box solution and it looks pretty.
> I guess the biggest improvement would be M-scaler. Though some have said using an Aries G1 made more of a difference than it. To me using a dedicated streamer is just a solution looking for a problem, i'd much rather use my pc that i'm already using while listening to music than buy and use an ipad to switch tracks. The ease of using a mouse and keyboard outweighs the alleged sound quality gains for me,personally. *  Millennials    *
> That might change if i actually do notice a difference between sources at some point. Would also be nice to have an actual scientific explanation for why they might matter.



As I mentioned the Dave sounds amazing stock but keep in mind that a lot of people that can afford the Dave, can also afford all these additional products. If you read all these posts you’ll start to believe never sounded good in its stock format. 

I believe you have some people looking for the very best so will spend all kinds of money for the last 1%. You also get used to the sound no matter how good it is over time. So you also have people feeding upgradidas. If you already have an end game Dac, you need to look for other ways to improve your system.

I had my last headphone system for about 15 years but I decided to sell and start over. So I have a good baseline for how much improvement I hear every time I listen to the Dave. I did fall into the upgrade trap right away getting the mscaler, new headphone cable, Poweradd battery, and Blue Jean bnc cables. If I didn’t have the extra money at the time I would have stuck with all stock and still been happy.  I would have then added the mscaler at a later point since I do think the improvement is worth it.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> As I mentioned the Dave sounds amazing stock but keep in mind that a lot of people that can afford the Dave, can also afford all these additional products. If you read all these posts you’ll start to believe never sounded good in its stock format.
> 
> I believe you have some people looking for the very best so will spend all kinds of money for the last 1%. You also get used to the sound no matter how good it is over time. So you also have people feeding upgradidas. If you already have an end game Dac, you need to look for other ways to improve your system.
> 
> I had my last headphone system for about 15 years but I decided to sell and start over. So I have a good baseline for how much improvement I hear every time I listen to the Dave. I did fall into the upgrade trap right away getting the mscaler, new headphone cable, Poweradd battery, and Blue Jean bnc cables. If I didn’t have the extra money at the time I would have stuck with all stock and still been happy.  I would have then added the mscaler at a later point since I do think the improvement is worth it.


Honestly there are long periods of time when i don't even feel like listening to any music because i'm too busy or tired from work. Or prefer gaming instead. So i'm not looking for the last 1%.  However i did get a silver cable with a 6.3 socket cuz hey, Dave needs one  and do plan on adding the M-scaler and some decent bnc cables later, but not if the M-scaler introduces as many problems as people seem to claim. At that point adding streamers and fixing those problem would add up to a Bartok, which is less hassle. But we've had this chat before i guess, it's just people making mountains out of molehills that's putting me on edge .
   Just trying to get a sense of what upgrades are the best bang for buck, set up the system, enjoy it and move on. For me, there are other hobbies to feed,limited time to enjoy them, and a fiancee that's losing her patience LOL.


----------



## ecwl

adrianm said:


> I see, i saw Rob specifically mention the Usb input on a number of ocasions and i thought it was related to the usb clock being synced to the dac clock. Which is one of the reasons why Usb might be preferable over optical i guess?
> I'm just trying to get an understanding as to why people spend so much money on a ton of extra boxes for a dac that is this well designed. And trying to separate what might actually be worth doing.
> For example in all the tests i've done (in the store) i've yet to hear a difference between sources using the same file and same settings. Even on a lesser dac, at home,between a power hungry gaming pc running tidal and a laptop running on battery power,both via usb. Yet people swear up and down streamers matter. More than injecting noise, or playback software differences, i find it hard to see why.


I think you have answered your own question actually.
If you’re running on battery on your laptop, as long as your laptop is not charging at the same time, there is no ground loop leakage current noise (because your laptop is not grounded). When people are swearing that their streamers matter, inevitably, their system is grounded, at their router, cable modem, streamer then via USB into their DACs. So that is multiple sources of ground loop leakage current noise. And this is assuming there is not even more ground loop leakage current noise later on downstream. I don’t like running my system off my laptop so I need to setup a system (with streamer) with optimal sound. When I used to bring my DAVE to local Head-Fi meets, I just connect my iPad and it sounds identical to what I get at home (after lots of effort). Keep in mind to when the sound changes with different products, different grounding and thus different types of ground loop leakage current noise, sometimes, it’s hard to tell which sounds better which is also why there is such intense discussion about which streamer pairs best with DAVE. My personal take is that if people are running streamers, before running out and buying an even more expensive one, they should consider grounding their router and cable modem first.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> Honestly there are long periods of time when i don't even feel like listening to any music because i'm too busy or tired from work. Or prefer gaming instead. So i'm not looking for the last 1%.  However i did get a silver cable with a 6.3 socket cuz hey, Dave needs one  and do plan on adding the M-scaler and some decent bnc cables later, but not if the M-scaler introduces as many problems as people seem to claim. At that point adding streamers and fixing those problem would add up to a Bartok, which is less hassle. But we've had this chat before i guess, it's just people making mountains out of molehills that's putting me on edge .
> Just trying to get a sense of what upgrades are the best bang for buck, set up the system, enjoy it and move on. For me, there are other hobbies to feed,limited time to enjoy them, and a fiancee that's losing her patience LOL.



Don't be put off exploiting the best Chord sound. That other DAC manufacturer that you mention is maybe not a one box stop solution after all when you ask yourself if it might not sound better with one of those external clocks that they sell (and then get diverted with what sort of cable to use to connect the box to the clock).


----------



## Malcyg

adrianm said:


> For the love of god this hobby is taking up more time than my actual job. When do people have time to actually listen to music? I think all of this stuff is just extreme nitpicking,



Hmmm, is that everyone else’s fault do you think? I note that you have made more posts in the 10 weeks since you joined Headfi than I have made in nearly 3.5 years since I joined - maybe, perhaps, the problem lies there somewhere? 😉 Take a break from posting, relax and listen to some music. 👍🏻


----------



## adrianm

ecwl said:


> I think you have answered your own question actually.
> If you’re running on battery on your laptop, as long as your laptop is not charging at the same time, there is no ground loop leakage current noise (because your laptop is not grounded). When people are swearing that their streamers matter, inevitably, their system is grounded, at their router, cable modem, streamer then via USB into their DACs. So that is multiple sources of ground loop leakage current noise. And this is assuming there is not even more ground loop leakage current noise later on downstream. I don’t like running my system off my laptop so I need to setup a system (with streamer) with optimal sound. When I used to bring my DAVE to local Head-Fi meets, I just connect my iPad and it sounds identical to what I get at home (after lots of effort). Keep in mind to when the sound changes with different products, different grounding and thus different types of ground loop leakage current noise, sometimes, it’s hard to tell which sounds better which is also why there is such intense discussion about which streamer pairs best with DAVE. My personal take is that if people are running streamers, before running out and buying an even more expensive one, they should consider grounding their router and cable modem first.


I actually meant that the laptop sounded identical to my desktop pc. Which is connected to an isotek sirius mains filter, but i assume it generates plenty of noise of its own..Though the Dac i was using to compare had a floating ground design ,not sure if that makes a difference.


----------



## adrianm

Malcyg said:


> Hmmm, is that everyone else’s fault do you think? I note that you have made more posts in the 10 weeks since you joined Headfi than I have made in nearly 3.5 years since I joined - maybe, perhaps, the problem lies there somewhere? 😉 Take a break from posting, relax and listen to some music. 👍🏻


I can't , my Dave isn't here yet  I'm not disputing that i'm "a bit" ocd, but i seem to be in the right place LOL.


----------



## Whazzzup

dave has come down in price in canada considerably. still to heavy for me but getting tastier. down to 13500 from 17500 at launch


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## bluecar

Whazzzup said:


> dave has come down in price in canada considerably. still to heavy for me but getting tastier. down to 13500 from 17500 at launch


There's a fair few knocking about for sale on the used market - with Chord's 'zero updates' policy, you're pretty much assured that it will be identical to a new one out of the box


----------



## Malcyg (Aug 10, 2020)

BPED said:


> Hello, I am looking for some advice to solve an issue that arose recently.
> I use my M-Dave as DAC for my headphones set up (amp Riviera, via RCA cables) and as DAC and pre for my speakers set up (active ATC, via XLR).
> 
> Until recently I had no issues, just making sure that the speakers were powered off when I used the Riviera and viceversa.
> ...



Try disconnecting all cables from Dave, leave it for a few minutes and then reconnect them all back up again.


----------



## BPED

Malcyg said:


> Try disconnecting all cables from Dave, leave it for a few minutes and then reconnect them all back up again.



Thanks but that didn’t work unfortunately.. the ATC still sound distorted unless I unplugged the RCA out from the Dave.

@Rob Watts , I am using Dave as pre for active ATC (via (XLR) and as DAC for a headphones amp (via RCA). Even if I keep the headphones amp off, the speakers sound distorted. The only solution is to unplug the RCA cable. Is this normal for the Dave? Or should it work normally when connected to different amps  (to be used one at the time)? Thanks for clarifying


----------



## edwardsean

In my opinion, the Dave is not exactly a one-box solution. If I didn't want to work on the system, personally, I would be looking at the Bartok with its integrated Network Bridge. The standalone NB is around $5K, so in that sense the Bartok presents a value proposition. As to form factor, the Bartok is an elegant one-box, but it is also a gargantuan one-box. I love the compact form of the Dave and, though I abhor cable clutter, cables allow me to tuck away all the boxes. In my experience, you need those boxes to equal and better a standalone Bartok. 

Is it worth the cost and taking on the "part-time job" of upgrading the Dave? That is an intensely personal decision. I can only say that it may be frustrating for all of us, but for some of us, it is also immensely joyful. I like working on the system. I suppose, if I were into cars, I would like taking a wrench to the engine and swapping out carburetors or whatever enthusiasts do. 

It is odd that there is the sentiment that this is OCD "nitpicking" over the last 1% of SQ, questioning any scientific basis. I find it odd because there is nothing so unscientific as sitting in a chair and speculating without learning. Science requires either research into the literature or experimentation. Really, you need a cycle of both and that begins with the humility of knowing that you don't know what you don't know. 

The Dave is an–amazing–piece of tech. It is hard to actually "improve" on its design, and that requires something like retrofitting a custom power supply. However, you are not exploring its full potential without upgrading the signal you feed it.

Along with other devices, the Innuos Phoenix makes a significant difference. To be clear we are not talking trying to discipline the Dave's internal clock with an external master. That can't be done, and I believe Rob Watts, that it shouldn't be done nor does it need to be done. The technical reasons for the benefit can be debated and it would take a fair amount of engineering savvy to suss it all out. However, empirical experimentation, i.e., I listen to it with and without, tells me it improves SQ by more than a subtle margin. And, I don't know how you would know that without trying and testing. It would be hard to fix an exact percentage, but I know I don't regret the money spent nor would I want to ever remove it from my system.


----------



## Ciggavelli (Aug 10, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> In my opinion, the Dave is not exactly a one-box solution. If I didn't want to work on the system, personally, I would be looking at the Bartok with its integrated Network Bridge. The standalone NB is around $5K, so in that sense the Bartok presents a value proposition. As to form factor, the Bartok is an elegant one-box, but it is also a gargantuan one-box. I love the compact form of the Dave and, though I abhor cable clutter, cables allow me to tuck away all the boxes. In my experience, you need those boxes to equal and better a standalone Bartok.
> 
> Is it worth the cost and taking on the "part-time job" of upgrading the Dave? That is an intensely personal decision. I can only say that it may be frustrating for all of us, but for some of us, it is also immensely joyful. I like working on the system. I suppose, if I were into cars, I would like taking a wrench to the engine and swapping out carburetors or whatever enthusiasts do.
> 
> ...










Shhhh....stop making sense.  "But, but, but Rob said this, the measurements say that."  All the while, they have never tried dedicated servers or reclockers themselves


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> I find it odd because there is nothing so unscientific as sitting in a chair and speculating without learning. Science requires either research into the literature or experimentation. Really, you need a cycle of both and that begins with the humility of knowing that you don't know what you don't know.


I have been doing both, i just came to different conclusions than you have. I'm asking because i'm still waiting to be proven wrong, or at least be pointed to some valid literature, but like the explanations in this hobby, they seem to be missing.Or hard to find. It's always people shouting "You can't tell me what i'm hearing".Measurements  also seem to contradict a lot these opinions, but somehow they're only good for creating the gadgets, after that they're irrelevant.
    If your doctor said tomorrow " This Covid vaccine looks good to me, i gave it to a guy yesterday and he's fine.His vitals aren't that good? They're just measurements". Would you take it? Or the guys reading your tire pressure? 



edwardsean said:


> The technical reasons for the benefit can be debated and it would take a fair amount of engineering savvy to suss it all out.


I would love to at least hear some of these reasons since jitter has been eliminated, the galvanic isolation should do a good enough job removing the current leakage. Some people said they prefer the Auralic Aries G2 with the Dave for example. Not sure about other streamers but that one has a galvanically isolated usb, just like the Dave. As far as i know  2 galvanically isolated ports create a ground loop. That would  introduce noise floor modulation, as i understand it. So the only difference i can see is added distortion. Pleasant or not. If there is something "better " about the way these servers send the ones and zeros i'd really like to know what. The most obvious reason i can think of as to why they sound different is they're using different playback software.



Ciggavelli said:


> Shhhh....stop making sense. "But, but, but Rob said this, the measurements say that." All the while, they have never tried dedicated servers or reclockers themselves



If you call "It can't be explained but the audio companies say we should keep throwing money at their latest solutions for problems they said we have " making sense...sure.
I find it fascinating how people refuse to believe anything that contradicts their beliefs, even from the guys who create the gear they obsess over. Believe what you will, but measurements are what makes planes fly and the boxes make music. People act like they're some unknowable thing. If the guys from Innuos came out tomorrow and said it's a scam 90% of people wouldn't believe them. Even if it actually does some magical thing that they refuse to explain, the price/performance ratio is laughable.
I have tried a bunch of stuff that led me to believe the source is only relevant if it's introducing jitter/noise.
  Including an Auralic Vega G1 streaming dac streaming tidal to itself vs me streaming to it from a 16 inch macbook pro via a 1k usb cable and a 5$ lightning-to-usb adapter. I was there ready to buy a Aries G1, almost convinced by these forums that it's a real thing. Tried for an hour, couldn't spot one difference. And you would think a dac streaming to itself vs a "crappy" laptop with a 5$ adapter would be an ideal test case to show differences.
   Also tried the Igalvanic ,made a tiny difference with my non-galvanically isolated dac, i attribute that to ..well..the galvanic isolation. Was hardly noticeable regardless.
  Also tried the Dave in the showroom with Naim ND-555 and power supply streaming to it vs a Node2i. The Node sounded a bit worse, sure, but it was connected via coax and the Naim via Usb, lack of galvanic isolation again could easily account for the differences.Plus the playback software, like i said.
    Not claiming i know everything, but i do know that confirmation bias is a powerful thing and most self-proclaimed audiophiles are shopaholics who listen to music. Or have a financial interest in said hobby. Most of the people i know who have at least a basic understanding of what's happening are a lot more cynical than i am.


----------



## Ciggavelli

adrianm said:


> I have been doing both, i just came to different conclusions than you have. I'm asking because i'm still waiting to be proven wrong, or at least be pointed to some valid literature, but like the explanations in this hobby, they seem to be missing.Or hard to find. It's always people shouting "You can't tell me what i'm hearing".Measurements  also seem to contradict a lot these opinions, but somehow they're only good for creating the gadgets, after that they're irrelevant.
> If your doctor said tomorrow " This Covid vaccine looks good to me, i gave it to a guy yesterday and he's fine.His vitals aren't that good? They're just measurements". Would you take it? Or the guys reading your tire pressure?
> 
> 
> ...


Well, count yourself lucky that you can't hear differences.  You've saved yourself a good amount of money.  For the rest of us, we can hear differences.  I've heard differences with "cheap" reclocking tech (Uptone Audio ISO REGEN) and more expensive reclocking with a master clock (Innuos Phoenix).  The differences are not small, and I could hear an immediate improvement.  I'm far from the only person that has come to this conclusion.  From what you just wrote, it appears that you have not tried a reclocker out yet.  If/when you do, you may be singing a different tune


----------



## adrianm

Ciggavelli said:


> From what you just wrote, it appears that you have not tried a reclocker out yet. If/when you do, you may be singing a different tune


I did say i've tried the Igalvanic 3.0, which is also a reclocker. If that data gets reclocked to the Dave's master/usb clock why would it make a difference? I'm not arguing they all sound the same, it just seems to me that the thing that makes them sound different probably isn't the reclocking, it's just the injected noise. So just like tube amps, added distortion. Pleasing or not. To each his own.
    As is the custom on these forums, agree to disagree. But i was really hoping for something more than personal impressions, as they clearly contradict mine. Maybe i haven't tested enough stuff out yet, but i've kinda run out of reasons to.


----------



## radnor

edwardsean said:


> In my opinion, the Dave is not exactly a one-box solution. If I didn't want to work on the system, personally, I would be looking at the Bartok with its integrated Network Bridge. The standalone NB is around $5K, so in that sense the Bartok presents a value proposition. As to form factor, the Bartok is an elegant one-box, but it is also a gargantuan one-box. I love the compact form of the Dave and, though I abhor cable clutter, cables allow me to tuck away all the boxes. In my experience, you need those boxes to equal and better a standalone Bartok.
> 
> Is it worth the cost and taking on the "part-time job" of upgrading the Dave? That is an intensely personal decision. I can only say that it may be frustrating for all of us, but for some of us, it is also immensely joyful. I like working on the system. I suppose, if I were into cars, I would like taking a wrench to the engine and swapping out carburetors or whatever enthusiasts do.
> 
> ...


 so I will have my Dave on friday... will be selling my TT2... and using the mscaler and SOTM stack and ROON NUC... 

from my research it seems that with the appropriate stack added to mDave it is indeed better than Bartok.... I will find out as I will be taking a Bartok on loan and comparing. I plan to film the shootout on youtube with a Female friend that has no skin in game as the host and tester... her ears are way better than mine... the video will focus on music alone... no measurements etc.... simply which sounds best.


----------



## Ciggavelli (Aug 10, 2020)

adrianm said:


> I did say i've tried the Igalvanic 3.0, which is also a reclocker. If that data gets reclocked to the Dave's master/usb clock why would it make a difference? I'm not arguing they all sound the same, it just seems to me that the thing that makes them sound different probably isn't the reclocking, it's just the injected noise. So just like tube amps, added distortion. Pleasing or not. To each his own.
> As is the custom on these forums, agree to disagree. But i was really hoping for something more than personal impressions, as they clearly contradict mine. Maybe i haven't tested enough stuff out yet, but i've kinda run out of reasons to.


With reclocking, the power supply is also important.  I don't know why, and I don't know how, but adding a linear power supply to a reclocker makes everything sound so much better.  The Uptone ISO Regen has a LPS1.2 PSU, and the Innuos Phoenix has a linear power supply with 3 separate lanes.  The improved power supply appears to make the most difference


----------



## Triode User

Ciggavelli said:


> With reclocking, the power supply is also important.  I don't know why, and I don't know how, but adding a linear power supply to a reclocker makes everything sound so much better.  The Uptone ISO Regen has a LPS1.2 PSU, and the Innuos Phoenix has a linear power supply with 3 separate lanes.  The improved power supply appears to make the most difference



That is my suspicion as well.


----------



## adrianm

Ciggavelli said:


> With reclocking, the power supply is also important.  I don't know why, and I don't know how, but adding a linear power supply to a reclocker makes everything sound so much better.  The Uptone ISO Regen has a LPS1.2 PSU, and the Innuos Phoenix has a linear power supply with 3 separate lanes.  The improved power supply appears to make the most difference


Well that would diminish the noise injected so it does make sense. Still horrible bang for buck though. And it just means the Dac's galvanic isolation isn't that great to begin with.


----------



## adrianm

So say it's the power that's causing the whole mess, a well designed laptop (mac) running on batteries should be just as good as a high end server. Do you find this to be the case?


----------



## Ciggavelli

adrianm said:


> Well that would diminish the noise injected so it does make sense. Still horrible bang for buck though. And it just means the Dac's galvanic isolation isn't that great to begin with.


If you’re at all curious, I always tell people to try the UpTone Audio ISO Regen with their LPS1.2 psu. It’s $695 and comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. I too was skeptical of reclockers, so I tried that out because if I didn’t like it, I could just return it, and it wasn’t too much money upfront (compared to other reclockers). I was very impressed with it.

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/iso-regen?variant=37469467788

Because the ISO Regen was such an improvement, I bought the Innuos Phoenix (which is even better)


----------



## Ciggavelli

adrianm said:


> So say it's the power that's causing the whole mess, a well designed laptop (mac) running on batteries should be just as good as a high end server. Do you find this to be the case?


I don’t have a Mac so I dunno. I have a very high end PC that I was using before, and upon comparison, the Innuos streamer sounded better. I also tried off my iPhone (I.e. battery) and the soundstage and separation of instruments was worse than the streamer


----------



## adrianm

Ciggavelli said:


> If you’re at all curious, I always tell people to try the UpTone Audio ISO Regen with their LPS1.2 psu. It’s $695 and comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. I too was skeptical of reclockers, so I tried that out because if I didn’t like it, I could just return it, and it wasn’t too much money upfront (compared to other reclockers). I was very impressed with it.
> 
> https://uptoneaudio.com/products/iso-regen?variant=37469467788
> 
> Because the ISO Regen was such an improvement, I bought the Innuos Phoenix (which is even better)


I doubt the return policy applies in europe, i might give it a shot if it does, but how does the M-scaler and opto dx and etc factor into all of this? Doesn't it do the same thing?


----------



## jlbrach (Aug 10, 2020)

Ciggavelli said:


> If you’re at all curious, I always tell people to try the UpTone Audio ISO Regen with their LPS1.2 psu. It’s $695 and comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. I too was skeptical of reclockers, so I tried that out because if I didn’t like it, I could just return it, and it wasn’t too much money upfront (compared to other reclockers). I was very impressed with it.
> 
> https://uptoneaudio.com/products/iso-regen?variant=37469467788
> 
> Because the ISO Regen was such an improvement, I bought the Innuos Phoenix (which is even better)


I recently bought the ultrarendu and have been very happy with the results with my dave


----------



## radnor

DAVE NEWBIE TWEAK SUGGESTIONS?

I will have my DAVE on Friday... integrating into mScaler and SOTM stack. What are some tweaks you all would recommend I do immediately?

New power cord make a difference?

thanks!


----------



## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> I have been doing both, i just came to different conclusions than you have. I'm asking because i'm still waiting to be proven wrong, or at least be pointed to some valid literature, but like the explanations in this hobby, they seem to be missing.Or hard to find. It's always people shouting "You can't tell me what i'm hearing".Measurements also seem to contradict a lot these opinions, but somehow they're only good for creating the gadgets, after that they're irrelevant.
> If your doctor said tomorrow " This Covid vaccine looks good to me, i gave it to a guy yesterday and he's fine.His vitals aren't that good? They're just measurements". Would you take it? Or the guys reading your tire pressure?



I believe you have been doing your own testing and listening. I'm sure there is real experience behind your comments, but there is a lot of different types of gear out there at varying levels of quality. We need to draw conclusions slowly or we will be in error. 

I'm not sure who is saying, "You can't tell me what I'm hearing," measurements are "irrelevant." For my part, I've championed the need for measurements in many posts, as they are–absolutely–essential. At the same time every respected builder will tell you that listening is exactly as indispensable. There are things that affect SQ that they implement, but have yet to find the proper measurement to explain. Doctors will be the first to tell you that there are treatments that work which they regularly prescribe, but they don't understand the biomechanics of their efficacy–yet. The picture is complex. Measurements help us "see" what we are hearing, and listening let's us hear what we are seeing. I wouldn't want to work blind or deaf. One informs the other. 



adrianm said:


> So say it's the power that's causing the whole mess, a well designed laptop (mac) running on batteries should be just as good as a high end server. Do you find this to be the case?



Again, it's more complicated than just power, but even the issue of power is multifarious in and of itself. Just because you are running off of batteries, clear of the grid, doesn't mean you have good power. Noise is only one issue that affects power. The cheap power supply in a laptop doesn't have the kind of precise regulation and quality of power delivery as a high end server. Power delivery affects everything from dynamic swing, transient response, PRAT, etc. There is a reason why the power supply in this server is built in this painstaking way rather than with a bank of lithium ion batteries. We should be open to the thought that it might sound a littler better. 

I have the newest MacBook Pro running Audirvana. I love the Mac–to pieces. It's not something that can compete with a purpose built audio device is all. 

You seem to be under the impression that there is a lot of subjectivity without careful thinking through the objective technicalities. The literature is not "missing." If you want to go on a deep dive, check out this thread on Audiophile Style: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...f-computer-audio-streaming/page/692/#comments  You may already be aware of it, but it is 692 pages, 17,281 posts of collective listening, interpreting, and reasoning through the technicalities of building a system around a DAC. Many of the contributors own Daves and consider it the finest DAC in the world. Still, this hasn't stopped them from spending many, many  multiples of its retail price on trying to eke out 1 more percent from it (grin).


----------



## Rob Watts

BPED said:


> Thanks but that didn’t work unfortunately.. the ATC still sound distorted unless I unplugged the RCA out from the Dave.
> 
> @Rob Watts , I am using Dave as pre for active ATC (via (XLR) and as DAC for a headphones amp (via RCA). Even if I keep the headphones amp off, the speakers sound distorted. The only solution is to unplug the RCA cable. Is this normal for the Dave? Or should it work normally when connected to different amps  (to be used one at the time)? Thanks for clarifying



Is the amp shorting unused inputs or inputs when powered down? I know some amps that do this which is reckless and irresponsible to short active electronics.
With Dave driving a short it will get distorted.



Ciggavelli said:


> Shhhh....stop making sense.  "But, but, but Rob said this, the measurements say that."  All the while, they have never tried dedicated servers or reclockers themselves



But I have. My MSI laptop beat it easily - the server sounding bright and with false transparency. The MSI was much warmer, with softer, fuller bass, better timbre variation, deeper soundstage, and more focussed instrument separation. The server sounded superficially more impressive - but it was *exactly* the type of sound you get from added RF noise causing more noise floor modulation.

Adding more active electronics to process bit perfect data will *always* add extra RF noise and this will con you into thinking it sounds better.

If I thought servers were the way forward I would design them rather than spending all my time on DAC amps and ADCs.


----------



## adrianm

Rob Watts said:


> But I have. My MSI laptop beat it easily - the server sounding bright and with false transparency. The MSI was much warmer, with softer, fuller bass, better timbre variation, deeper soundstage, and more focussed instrument separation. The server sounded superficially more impressive - but it was *exactly* the type of sound you get from added RF noise causing more noise floor modulation.
> 
> Adding more active electronics to process bit perfect data will *always* add extra RF noise and this will con you into thinking it sounds better.
> 
> If I thought servers were the way forward I would design them rather than spending all my time on DAC amps and ADCs.


Any tips for a non-believer who wants to keep using his gaming desktop pc with the Dave and later M-scaler? Jitterbug usb and call it a day? or do you recommend any other improvements? My Dave's not here yet, but with my old dac (Sony Ta-zh1es) i didn't really notice a difference between the desktop and a laptop running on battery. Not revealing enough? Definitely a lot worse designed though as a mains filter improved it drastically.


----------



## Rob Watts

Wait till your Dave arrives. If desktop PC sounds the same as a lap-top on batteries (with the lap-top not connected to ground at all) you are good to go and no need to worry about the source.


----------



## adrianm

Rob Watts said:


> Wait till your Dave arrives. If desktop PC sounds the same as a lap-top on batteries (with the lap-top not connected to ground at all) you are good to go and no need to worry about the source.


Will do, Should i keep using the Isotek Sirius mains filter with it (Mostly for surge protection as i have bad power,but any further benefits are welcome) or does it "bucher dynamics" as some people claim? (It's not a high powered amp so i fail to see why that would be the case) Or any other detriments?


----------



## edwardsean (Aug 11, 2020)

Rob Watts said:


> But I have. My MSI laptop beat it easily - the server sounding bright and with false transparency. The MSI was much warmer, with softer, fuller bass, better timbre variation, deeper soundstage, and more focussed instrument separation. The server sounded superficially more impressive - but it was *exactly* the type of sound you get from added RF noise causing more noise floor modulation.
> 
> Adding more active electronics to process bit perfect data will *always* add extra RF noise and this will con you into thinking it sounds better.
> 
> If I thought servers were the way forward I would design them rather than spending all my time on DAC amps and ADCs.



Along with many others, this will remain an endless source of mystery to me. I know that you have conducted these experiments on your own and with Romaz at his home (Roy being the originator of that Audiophile Style thread).

Whose ears should we trust more than Rob Watts! I mean this with utmost sincerity.

And yet... here we are. The sound with my system (server, reclocker, isolator, power supplies, cabling, etc.) is not a brighter sound than the Dave alone. I don't have a Windows laptop of any brand. However, the Dave clearly sounds brighter when I go straight from my MacBook Pro (plugged in or not). Adding the system, the sound is warmer, fuller, suppler, and more dynamic, with increased timbral delicacy and definition.

The background is more black which I can only attribute to a lower noise floor. There is nothing less than a dramatic increase in soundstage dimension and separation of sonic components in the image. I can hear detail which I simply cannot with the Dave alone, which is again, a phenomenon I cannot understand if more RF noise is being injected into the signal. The sound from the system does not have the telltale excitation "spice" of increased noise pollution, but bears all the increased nuance and resolution of decreased noise. 

I don't consider any of this a way to better  Dave, but providing Dave with the signal to take better advantage of what it offers.

In all my attempts to interpret and understand the technicalities of what I am hearing, the fact that my conclusions are so at odds with Rob Watt's, is utterly confounding. The mammoth levels of effort and obscene amount of finances expended by so many are driven by the revelation that came with hearing Dave. That what we are hearing with our additional systems is at such variance with the very designer of the Dave is deflating. And yet, with–all due deference and enormous respect–we go on.


----------



## Malcyg

edwardsean said:


> Along with many others, this will remain an endless source of mystery to me. I know that you have conducted these experiments on your own and with Romaz at his home (Roy being the originator of that Audiophile Style thread).
> 
> Whose ears should we trust more than Rob Watts! I mean this with utmost sincerity.
> 
> ...



If you like it, it is good. It is your ears and your ears only that count in terms of enjoying your music.

My own findings are very similar to yours. Each step has been a move away from that brightly etched and fatiguing digital detail to a darker, warmer, smoother more analogue sound. The opposite in fact of what Rob is suggesting. Anyway, I like it very much and I don’t much care what anyone else has to say about it. People worry too much about what others say sometimes I think.


----------



## Christer (Aug 11, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> Along with many others, this will remain an endless source of mystery to me. I know that you have conducted these experiments on your own and with Romaz at his home (Roy being the originator of that Audiophile Style thread).
> 
> Whose ears should we trust more than Rob Watts! I mean this with utmost sincerity.
> 
> ...


The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
After all the hype and discussions here whether "to laptop or not to laptop?" "Or maybe whether to mac or to windows?" I'm going to listen to the often  lauded Innuos server solution soon.
But I already  know that  maybe the one deciding limiting factor for me is Qutest.
Dave/Mscaler via my mbp USB is about as good as I've heard digital sound so far.
But that there can be audible differences between sources/cd players  even with rbcd and optical out, oh yes indeed!
I have no doubts whatsoever  as far as that is concerned.
My preferred cd player stopped working last week and just for fun while shopping for second hand cds at a local thrift shop I also bought an upmarket VERY expensive dvd/cd player that day.
A real  "High End" brand NAD and I paid 10 € for it including a huge remote.
They also had two "new" pianos for sale that also sounded different from each other. One for 100€ and another for 250€.
Mozart sounded nicer on the cheaper one and Beethoven better on the more  expensive one.
To my surprise the "HIGH END" 10€ NAD dvd /cd player sounds quite nice and with some cds better, but again audibly different from  my other still working cd player via optical out into Mscaler, just as my now dead cd player sounded different from the other.
Neither of the three as good as cd s via Blu2/DAVE though,going  by memory, which remains the best I've ever heard cd discs sound.
But since I still clearly hear that the hi res 24/96 master files from some of  the same recordings still sound  notably  better and more realistic via my mbp/Qutest/Mscaler than via even Blu2/DAVE.
Yes a laptop!

Hence 25 k for cd player combo  like Blu2 was NEVER on my horizon.

Proof of the pudding so far, cd can sound better than I ever thought it would or could. But hi res rules.
To "server or not to server?" now that remains to be decided after proper auditions with my reference material.
Cheers CC


----------



## Malcyg

Years back, in the 80’s, I stopped really listening to music for quite a long while because it always made me feel quite fatigued, gave me a headache and hurt my ears. This was when I switched from those irritating black vinyl things to the shiny, new silver CD’s that delivered ‘perfect sound‘. It is only in recent years that I have completely rediscovered my youthful appetite for music. I am enjoying the best sound I have ever heard which I can play as loud as I like and listen to for as long as I like - all day sometimes - free from any pain and fatigue. My BluDave is a big part of that but there are multiple other components involved as well. It is all about getting a well balanced system, and that has never changed.


----------



## BPED

Rob Watts said:


> Is the amp shorting unused inputs or inputs when powered down? I know some amps that do this which is reckless and irresponsible to short active electronics.
> With Dave driving a short it will get distorted.
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you Rob, I am checking with RivieraLabs and will report back.


----------



## Christer (Aug 11, 2020)

Christer said:


> The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
> After all the hype and discussions here whether "to laptop or not to laptop?" "Or maybe whether to mac or to windows?" I'm going to listen to the often  lauded Innuos server solution soon.
> But I already  know that  maybe the one deciding limiting factor for me is Qutest.
> Dave/Mscaler via my mbp USB is about as good as I've heard digital sound so far.
> ...


I never stopped listening, I stuck with my Linn LP 12 that I bought in the mid 70s until SACD, and now mainly play  hi res or cds via Mscaler.
But my LP12 still sees some use.
It still beats non mscaled cd in vital respects imho.
Cheers CC


----------



## adrianm (Aug 11, 2020)

Well looks like @Rob Watts sped things up, got a call earlier and picked the Dave up 
I'd post pics but i'm a bit late to the party


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Christer said:


> The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
> After all the hype and discussions here whether "to laptop or not to laptop?" "Or maybe whether to mac or to windows?" I'm going to listen to the often  lauded Innuos server solution soon.
> But I already  know that  maybe the one deciding limiting factor for me is Qutest.
> Dave/Mscaler via my mbp USB is about as good as I've heard digital sound so far.
> ...



Hi Christer, I cannot speak for other Innuos products but if you intend to try the Innuos Statement I would recommend you check with your supplier that the latest software is installed. (v1.4.5 is the latest) and really does make a difference to the SQ. 

Quote from Nuno Vitorino via email:
".....we did do improvements in the kernel and the engine. We will keep working on improving sound quality on both the software and hardware side."

I believe that was referring to the v1.4.4 software upgrade but as I say above there is a more recent version.

Anyway, just thought I would mention it. Once I heard it I would have paid for the software upgrade tbh.

Good Luck 
Dave


----------



## adrianm

Wow you guys were't kidding about MQA sounding like sht on Dave, i couldn't spot that much of a difference with the Mojo or my old Sony TA. Well, non MQA sounding a lot better, instead of the same more or less on the previous ones.


----------



## adrianm

Any insight on what the "Phase" setting does?


----------



## edwardsean

Malcyg said:


> My own findings are very similar to yours. Each step has been a move away from that brightly etched and fatiguing digital detail to a darker, warmer, smoother more analogue sound. The opposite in fact of what Rob is suggesting. Anyway, I like it very much and I don’t much care what anyone else has to say about it. People worry too much about what others say sometimes I think.



I agree. We do need a healthy balance I feel. In the end, we each have to satisfy our own ears. But, "before the end," we need to take on board how other respected ears are hearing things. I think that's part of what we are all doing here right? We need to help each other interpret what we are hearing. We probably shared a path where we initially thought a brighter sound was clearer and more exciting. Then someone put the notion into our heads that we were confusing noise for actual clarity. I needed that to develop my hearing. 



DaveRedRef-III said:


> Hi Christer, I cannot speak for other Innuos products but if you intend to try the Innuos Statement I would recommend you check with your supplier that the latest software is installed. (v1.4.5 is the latest) and really does make a difference to the SQ.
> 
> Quote from Nuno Vitorino via email:
> ".....we did do improvements in the kernel and the engine. We will keep working on improving sound quality on both the software and hardware side."



On the subject of software. Some members have booted up their Innuos gear with entirely different versions of Linux OS. Myself, I use Euphony/Stylus, and out of all the "gear" I've added, this was a surprise. I didn't think the OS would make such a difference, but it was just as large as any physical component upgrade. 

As there is a difference between a laptop and purpose built hardware, the same holds true for software. Windows/Mac was never designed for audio and suffers SQ degradation for it. Audio OS developers have taken various strategies from stripping down Windows (e.g., Fidelizer) to building ground up OS's with just essential code (e.g., Audio Linux, Euphony). 

Run the right way, Euphony shows 0% CPU usage during playback over multiple cores/threads. All operating files are working in RAM and audio files are buffered to RAM, so there is minimal system usage/noise. 

To my ears, this again has highlighted the benefits of upstream audio grade gear for DAVE.


----------



## Jon L

edwardsean said:


> Again, it's more complicated than just power, but even the issue of power is multifarious in and of itself. Just because you are running off of batteries, clear of the grid, doesn't mean you have good power. Noise is only one issue that affects power. The cheap power supply in a laptop doesn't have the kind of precise regulation and quality of power delivery as a high end server.



Good points all.  

Personally, my only issue with these "audiophile" music servers is the audiophile profit margin.  
For example, this Taiko Audio Audio server would cost $28,000 before additional options added.   Sure its looks and build quality are great, but what is it really, to command such a price, knowing how much computer parts actually cost out there?

Looks to me like they use a nice Mobo, Intel Enterprise Xeon processors and Optane memory, Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC with customization, feeding data through Roon/Jplay.  Integrated linear PS with audiophile-approved electrolytic caps are nice, but nothing one can't do by adding an external PS to computers.  

Actually, all nicely done and nice to have all done for you, but $28,000?


----------



## mbj666

Triode User said:


> I am really not sure whether the reclocking function in the Innuos Phoenix 'reclocker' is the main event or whether some other aspect of what it does is the cause but all I can say is that the Phoenix made a clear and tangible improvement to sound quality when going to Dave or Mscaler by USB from my Innuos Zenith SE.
> 
> And no, it is not added noise artifacts that I am hearing when the Phoenix is added into the chain. I heared a smoother topo end and more detailed bottom end.
> 
> ...



the phoenix reclocker is on my to demo/shopping list to go with my zenith mk3 / DAVE how would describe the difference it made sound wise thx


----------



## ecwl

adrianm said:


> Any insight on what the "Phase" setting does?


Phase should be Positive for most recordings. Rarely, a recording has the phase wrong and that's when you would switch it.

New DAVEs, should have Crossfeed set to 0. Unfortunately, you can only see the setting if you have something plugged into the headphone jack but the setting is active all the time for the RCA/XLR outputs and the headphone jack. I usually switch it when I'm listening to headphones to Crossfeed 3 but sometimes I forget to switch it back to 0 when listening to my speakers which is a chore.

HF Filter optimally should be OFF for music that is 44.1kHz or 48kHz and ON for music that is 88.2kHz or above. Sometimes I get lazy and just leave it ON all the time. Other times I get lazy and just leave it OFF all the time.


----------



## adrianm

ecwl said:


> Phase should be Positive for most recordings. Rarely, a recording has the phase wrong and that's when you would switch it.
> 
> New DAVEs, should have Crossfeed set to 0. Unfortunately, you can only see the setting if you have something plugged into the headphone jack but the setting is active all the time for the RCA/XLR outputs and the headphone jack. I usually switch it when I'm listening to headphones to Crossfeed 3 but sometimes I forget to switch it back to 0 when listening to my speakers which is a chore.
> 
> HF Filter optimally should be OFF for music that is 44.1kHz or 48kHz and ON for music that is 88.2kHz or above. Sometimes I get lazy and just leave it ON all the time. Other times I get lazy and just leave it OFF all the time.


I'm only using headphones with it. I kinda prefer crossfeed 0 for now. I'm using Tidal but disabled the MQA playback (it really does sound bad ), so just cd quality. I thought the consensus was HF Filter on all the time, except when using M-scaler?


----------



## radnor

adrianm said:


> Wow you guys were't kidding about MQA sounding like sht on Dave, i couldn't spot that much of a difference with the Mojo or my old Sony TA. Well, non MQA sounding a lot better, instead of the same more or less on the previous ones.


Mine arrives Friday.... did you disable MQA in Roon?

How are you enjoying it so far?


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> I'm only using headphones with it. I kinda prefer crossfeed 0 for now. I'm using Tidal but disabled the MQA playback (it really does sound bad ), so just cd quality. I thought the consensus was HF Filter on all the time, except when using M-scaler?



That’s Rob’s recommendation. I prefer HF on even with mscaler. But Rob also uses crossfeed with headphones and I think HF off is best when using that.

Also, how do you disable MQA in Tidal? 

I’ll be away from my setup for about a month, so it will be nice to get a fresh take on it when I get back. Just using my Grado’s SR-60 and an iPhone at the moment. I still find them fun headphones and can still enjoy the music.


----------



## adrianm

radnor said:


> Mine arrives Friday.... did you disable MQA in Roon?
> 
> How are you enjoying it so far?


I'm using the Tidal app, you can just select Hi-Fi quality instead of master and it automatically plays the non-mqa versions  of the Mqa tracks in your playlist.
Let's just put it this way...i'm almost all out of water and couldn't tear myself away from it long to go and buy some. LOL.
It's pretty addictive, way less fatiguing to listen to than my Mojo and TA, really takes the Z1R to a whole new level.


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## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> That’s Rob’s recommendation. I prefer HF on even with mscaler. But Rob also uses crossfeed with headphones and I think HF off is best when using that.
> 
> Also, how do you disable MQA in Tidal?
> 
> I’ll be away from my setup for about a month, so it will be nice to get a fresh take on it when I get back. Just using my Grado’s SR-60 and an iPhone at the moment. I still find them fun headphones and can still enjoy the music.


In the desktop app from here :


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## ecwl

adrianm said:


> In the desktop app from here :


Some Tidal albums have MQA versions and non-MQA versions, others only have MQA versions.
While your solution definitely works for the Tidal albums with MQA versions, the ideal way to play Tidal albums with both MQA and non-MQA versions is to find the non-MQA version of the album and then play off of it, instead of the MQA version of the album.


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## adrianm

radnor said:


> Mine arrives Friday.... did you disable MQA in Roon?
> 
> How are you enjoying it so far?


Imaging and positioning are amazing, as well as timbre. The thing that blew me away the most so far in both my auditions and at home is the decay on strings,cymbals. The level of detail is just crazy. A lot more space around each note. I honestly think people writing off the Z1R should listen to them with a Dave.
   Funny enough highs aren't as bothersome as they were with the TA with the stock cable. My Sony Kimber was 4.4 terminated, could barely find an adapter on amazon, and they sent me the wrong one. So waiting on some Lavricables grand now. I'm a cable (and everything else) skeptic but i did notice a slight difference with the Sony Kimber. Hardware eq i guess.


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## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> In the desktop app from here :



Sorry to get sidetracked but try the latest Black Keys album Let’s Rock. Is that even available in non-MQA. With roon, it shows you all versions and only MQA was available. Sort of like how Qobuz only offers hires version and not cd one.

And back on track, yes, the Dave sound is very addicting. For me it’s extra texture it provides.


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## adrianm

ecwl said:


> Some Tidal albums have MQA versions and non-MQA versions, others only have MQA versions.
> While your solution definitely works for the Tidal albums with MQA versions, the ideal way to play Tidal albums with both MQA and non-MQA versions is to find the non-MQA version of the album and then play off of it, instead of the MQA version of the album.





iamoneagain said:


> Sorry to get sidetracked but try the latest Black Keys album Let’s Rock. Is that even available in non-MQA. With roon, it shows you all versions and only MQA was available. Sort of like how Qobuz only offers hires version and not cd one.
> 
> And back on track, yes, the Dave sound is very addicting. For me it’s extra texture it provides.


I'm playing the master album now with the Hi-fi setting and the playback shows a "normal" version and Dave reads 44.1khz. So i'd say it works for all albums.


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## adrianm

Agreed 100% with the texture as well, never heard voices sound so real. I might die of dehydration here, going to buy some water.


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## edwardsean

Jon L said:


> Good points all.
> 
> Personally, my only issue with these "audiophile" music servers is the audiophile profit margin.
> For example, this Taiko Audio Audio server would cost $28,000 before additional options added.   Sure its looks and build quality are great, but what is it really, to command such a price, knowing how much computer parts actually cost out there?
> ...



It is insane, isn't it? Or, at least "extreme" (dumb pun). 

To put it into perspective that huge bank of Mundorf caps, I think Mlytics, is incredibly expensive, but they are still cheaper than its Duelund caps, which cost $1,000 a pop. That's $1,000 just for one capacitor. The bank of ECC RAM alone costs more than whole servers. All the components sourced for this build are of the "no-holds-barred" variety. This is before you factor in the mind-boggling amount of research and expertise it takes to design this from OS to chassis. You also have to account that this is a small shop custom build. 

So, this is a certain kind of machine for a certain kind of clientele. Just to be clear, I don't have one, but I hold no jealousy for its buyers nor cynicism for its builder. I don't think of it primarily as the luxury item that it is, but a functional tribute to the state of the art of audio. These cost-no-object explorations elevate what we are all doing in audio at whatever budget. It serves all of us by showing what can be accomplished and opening fresh routes to get there.


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## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> I'm playing the master album now with the Hi-fi setting and the playback shows a "normal" version and Dave reads 44.1khz. So i'd say it works for all albums.



If it’s listed as master version, that’s MQA. Probably getting even worse conversion to 44.1k. Believe the record company just didn’t supply cd version to Tidal, not necessarily their fault. I’d say best to stay away from ones that say master version even with the hifi option enabled. This makes me feel good about leaving Tidal for Qobuz.


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## Triode User

iamoneagain said:


> If it’s listed as master version, that’s MQA. Probably getting even worse conversion to 44.1k. Believe the record company just didn’t supply cd version to Tidal, not necessarily their fault. I’d say best to stay away from ones that say master version even with the hifi option enabled. This makes me feel good about leaving Tidal for Qobuz.



That is also why I left Tidal and joined Qobuz. I could never be totally sure what I was getting with Tidal.


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## radnor

adrianm said:


> I'm using the Tidal app, you can just select Hi-Fi quality instead of master and it automatically plays the non-mqa versions  of the Mqa tracks in your playlist.
> Let's just put it this way...i'm almost all out of water and couldn't tear myself away from it long to go and buy some. LOL.
> It's pretty addictive, way less fatiguing to listen to than my Mojo and TA, really takes the Z1R to a whole new level.


you need to get LCD 4Z! i have both ier/mdr z1r and 4Z... 4Z is an nice step up.


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## adrianm

radnor said:


> you need to get LCD 4Z! i have both ier/mdr z1r and 4Z... 4Z is an nice step up.


I'm sure it is, problem is i work from home with my fiancee, we're both programmers and we have a huge custom made L shaped desk. Even with closed backs if i turn the music up she can barely work. And i only listen at my desk . So i'm stuck with the Z1R untill some better closed backs come along. I was considering the Lcd-I4's but i doubt they're at the same level, let alone better. Plus all that eq finicking turned me off them.


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## iamoneagain

Do the Focal Stellia pair well with the Dave?  I find the Utopia an amazing choice and would think the Stellia would be considered for a great closed headphone. If I needed a closed model, that have would been on my list of top choices.


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## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> Do the Focal Stellia pair well with the Dave?  I find the Utopia an amazing choice and would think the Stellia would be considered for a great closed headphone. If I needed a closed model, that have would been on my list of top choices.


I tried them but i found them too neutral, sounded a bit thin to me with Dave. Didn't try them with anything else though. Also they didn't have a soundstage as  big as the Z1R, which i found better in every way. Though i'm sure some will disagree. 
   I think the extra bit of warmth they have works perfectly with Dave. With their amp, the sony ta-zh1es, the  bass was just too much, but i imagine the Stellia would've been a more exciting listen with it.
   I haven't heard the Utopias but from the reviews i've read if i were to get an open back it would probably be the Lcd-4z (Though Audeze reliability is a bit infamous) or the Empyreans.


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## adrianm (Aug 11, 2020)

Dumb question but can't seem to find an answer, do you just turn Dave off from the switch in the back or is there another way?
Edit: used the remote


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## radnor (Aug 11, 2020)

adrianm said:


> I tried them but i found them too neutral, sounded a bit thin to me with Dave. Didn't try them with anything else though. Also they didn't have a soundstage as  big as the Z1R, which i found better in every way. Though i'm sure some will disagree.
> I think the extra bit of warmth they have works perfectly with Dave. With their amp, the sony ta-zh1es, the  bass was just too much, but i imagine the Stellia would've been a more exciting listen with it.
> I haven't heard the Utopias but from the reviews i've read if i were to get an open back it would probably be the Lcd-4z (Though Audeze reliability is a bit infamous) or the Empyreans.


4Z.. much better than the Empy... and Audeze tuned the 4z with Chord gear... sounds phenomenal with mTT2 and H2GO.... but Z1R is great... i heard the Verite Closed is a lateral move... Z1R under rated... beautiful ID and weight... and a fun sound... sound sgreat from H2 as well. But with the gear you now have you need a 4z with the Z1r... for the times you are not disturbing. you can get a nearly mint new one for around 2K if you keep an eye out.

Had a case of upgraditis last week and went on a VC research kick and almost pulled trigger... decided to stay Z1R.

FWIW I sold my Susvara for the 4Z.... Susvara was not my cup of tea.... never pulled me in and I used the Bakoon amp which was just a tad better than direct from TT2.


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## adrianm

radnor said:


> 4Z.. much better than the Empy... and Audeze tuned the 4z with Chord gear... sounds phenomenal with mTT2 and H2GO.... but Z1R is great... i heard the Verite Closed is a lateral move... Z1R under rated... beautiful ID and weight... and a fun sound... sound sgreat from H2 as well. But with the gear you now have you need a 4z with the Z1r... for the times you are not disturbing. you can get a nearly mint new one for around 2K if you keep an eye out.
> 
> Had a case of upgraditis last week and went on a VC research kick and almost pulled trigger... decided to stay Z1R.
> 
> FWIW I sold my Susvara for the 4Z.... Susvara was not my cup of tea.... never pulled me in and I used the Bakoon amp which was just a tad better than direct from TT2.


Damn you're making this hard lol. Had some Oppo PM-3s that i loved and i still miss planars. Going to keep an eye out, the dealer that sold me my Dave sells Audeze as well so i'm sure we can work something out, but right now that listening time is basically 0 so there's not much point. Maybe after the M-scaler  . Have you tried the HEK SE as well?


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## radnor

adrianm said:


> Damn you're making this hard lol. Had some Oppo PM-3s that i loved and i still miss planars. Going to keep an eye out, the dealer that sold me my Dave sells Audeze as well so i'm sure we can work something out, but right now that listening time is basically 0 so there's not much point. Maybe after the M-scaler  . Have you tried the HEK SE as well?


no sense as I had the Susvara.... it tells you everything you need to know about hifi man.....  I have had Susvara, Lcd4z, LCD 24, LCD 4 and Z1r all side by side. 4z gives me the most meaty organic soundfield in a package I can actually make portable with the H2GO... and I actually thought they were better than the LCD4.... same music mass but less dark. They only place id go from here is to get the TC... Susvara is great if you are listening to pentatonix all day long.


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## adrianm

radnor said:


> no sense as I had the Susvara.... it tells you everything you need to know about hifi man.....  I have had Susvara, Lcd4z, LCD 24, LCD 4 and Z1r all side by side. 4z gives me the most meaty organic soundfield in a package I can actually make portable with the H2GO... and I actually thought they were better than the LCD4.... same music mass but less dark. They only place id go from here is to get the TC... Susvara is great if you are listening to pentatonix all day long.


I've been thinking of eventually upgrading the Mojo to a Hugo2 for portable use, maybe when i start going to the office again of travelling for work. 
   Hugo2+ Lcd4z does make a lot of sense actually. Still hope they make a closed version of it by the time i'm in the market for new headphones. I've been hoping for a lighter lcd-xc for 5 years now, i loved it but it was just way too uncomfortable.
   How is the 4z with H2 vs TT2+HMS? have you tried the lcd-i4's by any chance?


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## radnor (Aug 12, 2020)

adrianm said:


> I've been thinking of eventually upgrading the Mojo to a Hugo2 for portable use, maybe when i start going to the office again of travelling for work.
> Hugo2+ Lcd4z does make a lot of sense actually. Still hope they make a closed version of it by the time i'm in the market for new headphones. I've been hoping for a lighter lcd-xc for 5 years now, i loved it but it was just way too uncomfortable.
> How is the 4z with H2 vs TT2+HMS? have you tried the lcd-i4's by any chance?


Audeze spent much time tuning the 4z with the H2... The 4Z + H2GO is simply the best DAP in the world... id say 75% of TT2 Mscaler in your (BIG) pocket. Its a revelation going for walks/hikes with this rig or just using around the home in different rooms.

Id say H2GO is simply one of my favorite devices EVER... having this SQ in a portable package.

have not tried the i4... open back iem does not seem appealing... would rather walk around with 4Z on non windy days... Z1R windy days... ier Z1r primarily for travel (airports, conventions etc).


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## adrianm

radnor said:


> Audeze spent much time tuning the 4z with the H2... The 4Z + H2GO is simply the best DAP in the world... id say 75% of TT2 Mscaler in your (BIG) pocket. Its a revelation going for walks/hikes with this rig or just using around the home in different rooms.
> 
> Id say H2GO is simply one of my favorite devices EVER... having this SQ in a portable package.
> 
> have not tried the i4... open back iem does not seem appealing... would rather walk around with 4Z on non windy days... Z1R windy days... ier Z1r primarily for travel (airports, conventions etc).


I'm mostly in my car when going about, i think i'm in the small target for open back iem, the sound leakage shouldn't piss the gf off as much as full sized ones and they're easier to carry around at the office or hotels when traveling with the H2. My dealer also has a pretty massive discount on them, which is tempting, but they do require EQ and i'm not sure what the best (or any) way to do that with the Hugo 2. With Dave i guess i would need Roon in order to do it.


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## adrianm

A/B'd my laptop vs desktop for a bit, sighted test, but while doing other stuff, was pretty sure i heard one of them sounding slightly better at one point or another, but multiple times i had forgotten which was connected and got it wrong. Both ways. If i did really focus couldn't hear any differences. So as far as i'm concerned i chalk it up to placebo.
    I did test with the Jitterbug as well and same story, if i focus on something else for a few minutes and forget if it's connected or not i can't reliably tell .
    Looks like i'm staying a non-believer.


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## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> A/B'd my laptop vs desktop for a bit, sighted test, but while doing other stuff, was pretty sure i heard one of them sounding slightly better at one point or another, but multiple times i had forgotten which was connected and got it wrong. Both ways. If i did really focus couldn't hear any differences. So as far as i'm concerned i chalk it up to placebo.
> I did test with the Jitterbug as well and same story, if i focus on something else for a few minutes and forget if it's connected or not i can't reliably tell .
> Looks like i'm staying a non-believer.



That sounds about right, neither laptop vs. desktop, or jitterbug should make any real difference. Again, you really want to try a purpose-built server/player as an actual test. I've suggested this before but the Allo USB Signature w/ Shanti power supply running Moode is an economic entry point. You also have 15 days to return if your feel it also makes no difference. 

Staying a non-believer is fine of course. You should enjoy your music in your system as you like. Sharing our experiences is just a way to help each other do that. 

All the best to you in your audio journey.


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## BPED

BPED said:


> Thanks but that didn’t work unfortunately.. the ATC still sound distorted unless I unplugged the RCA out from the Dave.
> 
> @Rob Watts , I am using Dave as pre for active ATC (via (XLR) and as DAC for a headphones amp (via RCA). Even if I keep the headphones amp off, the speakers sound distorted. The only solution is to unplug the RCA cable. Is this normal for the Dave? Or should it work normally when connected to different amps  (to be used one at the time)? Thanks for clarifying



Case solved. I got a confirmation from Riviera that the AIC-10 is shorting all unused inputs, also when turned off (for technical reasons that are beyond me). That caused my problem. The solution is to keep the Riviera on, headphones unplugged, when listening to my speakers. I am happy that is was solved so easily! And thanks again to all those who quickly responded.


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## JaZZ

edwardsean said:


> That sounds about right, *neither laptop vs. desktop, or jitterbug should make any real difference.* Again, you really want to try a purpose-built server/player as an actual test. I've suggested this before but the Allo USB Signature w/ Shanti power supply running Moode is an economic entry point. You also have 15 days to return if your feel it also makes no difference.
> 
> Staying a non-believer is fine of course. You should enjoy your music in your system as you like. Sharing our experiences is just a way to help each other do that.
> 
> All the best to you in your audio journey.



I can't confirm that: replacing my desktop computer with a laptop as source made a substantial difference: smoother, more refined, higher resolution. From now on I couldn't go back to the desktop PC. Later I tried my new FiiO M11 Pro instead of the laptop, and it was another step in the same direction – although I was unsure if it wasn't a bit too much smoothness now. However, I soon got used to it and couldn't go back to the laptop. All this via M Scaler, thus galvanic isolation from the source, and Wave Storm cables. Surprisingly both laptop and M11 Pro sounded the same no matter if connected to the mains or not.

In any event I suggest trying the DAP solution as well as an alternative to the expensive (and counterintuitive) server route. And I would like to see a comparison of both approaches if anyone can offer it.


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## adrianm

JaZZ said:


> I can't confirm that: replacing my desktop computer with a laptop as source made a substantial difference: smoother, more refined, higher resolution. From now on I couldn't go back to the desktop PC. Later I tried my new FiiO M11 Pro instead of the laptop, and it was another step in the same direction – although I was unsure if it wasn't a bit too much smoothness now. However, I soon got used to it and couldn't go back to the laptop. All this via M Scaler, thus galvanic isolation from the source, and Wave Storm cables. Surprisingly both laptop and M11 Pro sounded the same no matter if connected to the mains or not.
> 
> In any event I suggest trying the DAP solution as well as an alternative to the expensive (and counterintuitive) server route. And I would like to see a comparison of both approaches if anyone can offer it.


Sounds like you’re playing files.In this case the player is probably the one making the difference. Same player (tidal), same file i can’t find the tiniest difference between sources.it was the same with a auralic vega streaming dac and my macbook streaming to it. I don’t know why people attribute these differences to server hardware and not playback software.


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## JaZZ

adrianm said:


> Sounds like you’re playing files.In this case the player is probably the one making the difference. Same player (tidal), same file i can’t find the tiniest difference between sources.it was the same with a auralic vega streaming dac and my macbook streaming to it. I don’t know why people attribute these differences to server hardware and not playback software.



With both PC and laptop I used _foobar2000_, and with the FiiO M11 Pro _FiiO Music_ (in pure music mode) or _Neutron player_ (in Android mode) made no difference to the sound. Anyway, the player software set to «bit perfect» theoretically shouldn't make a difference, since «bits are bits» (actually: samples are samples). I'm pretty confident that if you'd compare the checksum at the DAC (or M Scaler) input it would be the same.


----------



## adrianm

JaZZ said:


> With both PC and laptop I used _foobar2000_, and with the FiiO M11 Pro _FiiO Music_ (in pure music mode) or _Neutron player_ (in Android mode) made no difference to the sound. Anyway, the player software set to «bit perfect» theoretically shouldn't make a difference, since «bits are bits» (actually: samples are samples). I'm pretty confident that if you'd compare the checksum at the DAC (or M Scaler) input it would be the same.


Well then what’s the differentiating factor? I’ll just order a streamer at some point to test more at home.


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## JaZZ (Aug 12, 2020)

adrianm said:


> Well then what’s the differentiating factor? I’ll just order a streamer at some point to test more at home.



I have no idea. – Why not order an M11 (Pro) instead? It has by far exceeded my expectations.

I should add that DAP isn't DAP – when used as digital source. My X5 II and X3 II sound about the same (and similar to the Desktop PC), whereas the M11 Pro sounds significantly smoother and more resolving.


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## Triode User

adrianm said:


> Sounds like you’re playing files.In this case the player is probably the one making the difference. Same player (tidal), same file i can’t find the tiniest difference between sources.it was the same with a auralic vega streaming dac and my macbook streaming to it. I don’t know why people attribute these differences to server hardware and not playback software.



Possibly because if one uses the same playback software on two different streamers/ servers often the sound quality is different. I know because that has been the case for me.


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## iDesign (Aug 12, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> I agree. We do need a healthy balance I feel. In the end, we each have to satisfy our own ears. But, "before the end," we need to take on board how other respected ears are hearing things. I think that's part of what we are all doing here right? We need to help each other interpret what we are hearing. We probably shared a path where we initially thought a brighter sound was clearer and more exciting. Then someone put the notion into our heads that we were confusing noise for actual clarity. I needed that to develop my hearing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very good post above that mirrors my experience with Stylus. I have also found Audirvana+ 3.5 with the SysOptimizer set to Extreme yields very good results on macOS. As to another post in the thread that generalized all MacBook Pro laptops being bright, this is not true. Although I don’t use a laptop as a source, I have found my late 2019 16-inch MacBook Pro (2.4 i9/ 64GB DDR4/ 5500M 8GB) is significantly quieter than my previous mid 2015 15-inch MacBook Pro (2.8 i7/16GB DDR3L) run from batteries. I agree Macs preform very well depending on the setup and I really haven’t heard massive gains to justify costly servers or the man-hours experimenting with custom NUCs. Of course my main source is the Blu Mk II and a CD which is simple bliss.


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## Galm (Aug 12, 2020)

[Redacted]


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## edwardsean (Aug 12, 2020)

JaZZ said:


> I can't confirm that: replacing my desktop computer with a laptop as source made a substantial difference: smoother, more refined, higher resolution. From now on I couldn't go back to the desktop PC. Later I tried my new FiiO M11 Pro instead of the laptop, and it was another step in the same direction – although I was unsure if it wasn't a bit too much smoothness now. However, I soon got used to it and couldn't go back to the laptop. All this via M Scaler, thus galvanic isolation from the source, and Wave Storm cables. Surprisingly both laptop and M11 Pro sounded the same no matter if connected to the mains or not.
> 
> In any event I suggest trying the DAP solution as well as an alternative to the expensive (and counterintuitive) server route. And I would like to see a comparison of both approaches if anyone can offer it.



Not to be totally infuriating, but that sounds about right to me too! Maybe it was a bad choice of words but, what is a "real difference"?

If someone told me that they sat down and carefully tested a desktop and laptop and found a "substantial difference," "can't go back," I would say "sounds about right." If someone, like the OP, told me that they casually tried the same experiment "while doing other stuff" and they "forgot" which source was which, I would say "sounds about right." Same again with the jitterbug he mentioned.

How "real" is the difference here? Myself, I'm with JaZZ, but I wouldn't argue with someone who said, "I find it hard to hear a difference between laptop v. desktop, or jitterbug."

I'll restate my earlier point to the OP: I'm sure you are testing for yourself but there are many different types of gear at wildly different levels of quality. You need to draw conclusions slowly.

Jitterbug is not the same as IsoRegen + LPS1.2 is not the same as tx-USBUltra+PH PS is not the same as Phoenix using Sean Jacobs power supply. To have tested a jitterbug and say that I don't believe in USB conditioners is not sound methodology. IsoRegen, tx-USBUltra, Phoenix, Gaia, Ideon 3R Master Time make a real difference.

Ditto for lumping desktop vs. laptop together with Allo USB Sig, SOtM, Sonore, NUCs, Innous Server series, Taiko Extreme, and saying I don't believe in source/servers/players. These also make a real difference .

Again, what do I mean by "real difference" in the context of the OP?

If you tested your stock PC against a Taiko Extreme both running into Dave... You would–not–forget which source you had plugged in. Like, you wouldn't forget getting hit by a sledgehammer. You could be washing the dishes and switch from your PC to an Innuos Zenith and you could hear the difference. You wouldn't say, "let me hear it the other way again?" You would stop washing the dishes.

You don't have to go to the extreme, but there is a certain point at which I would argue that there is a real, and unmistakable, difference.


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## adrianm

JaZZ said:


> I have no idea. – Why not order an M11 (Pro) instead? It has by far exceeded my expectations.
> 
> I should add that DAP isn't DAP – when used as digital source. My X5 II and X3 II sound about the same (and similar to the Desktop PC), whereas the M11 Pro sounds significantly smoother and more resolving.


I'm only using Tidal to stream, i've never really used a dap since i use my laptop at work and desktop at home. Giving Qobuz a trial now as well, but either way i'm not sure how streaming how go with a DAP.
    Tbh i prefer the ease of using a mouse and keyboard rather than another tablet. I was considering using Teamviewer or Anydesk to control and unplugged laptop if i would've noticed a difference between it and the desktop. But since it's not the case..i'll probably stick with the desktop.
  FWIW, i'm not sure about other software people are using to play music, but Tidal has en "exclusive mode" that is supposed to reduce noise and i did find it made a difference when i started using it. I've tried Audirvana as well with Tidal and to me it sounded quite a bit worse. Of course that depends a bit on windows mixer and device settings because if the sample rate is not matched it messes with the file.
    At this point i honestly think people must have missed settings in windows/mac os that mess with the sound and that's why pc's get such a bad rep.
   Either way before trying out a streamer i need to get an M-scaler  and i barely got Dave yesterday. Going to be a while.


----------



## Triode User

edwardsean said:


> Not to be totally infuriating, but that sounds about right to me too! Maybe it was a bad choice of words but, what is a "real difference"?
> 
> If someone told me that they sat down and carefully tested a desktop and laptop and found a "substantial difference," "can't go back," I would say "sounds about right." If someone, like the OP, told me that they casually tried the same experiment "while doing other stuff" and they "forgot" which source was which, I would say "sounds about right." Same again with the jitterbug he mentioned.
> 
> ...



Good summary.


----------



## radnor

adrianm said:


> I'm only using Tidal to stream, i've never really used a dap since i use my laptop at work and desktop at home. Giving Qobuz a trial now as well, but either way i'm not sure how streaming how go with a DAP.
> Tbh i prefer the ease of using a mouse and keyboard rather than another tablet. I was considering using Teamviewer or Anydesk to control and unplugged laptop if i would've noticed a difference between it and the desktop. But since it's not the case..i'll probably stick with the desktop.
> FWIW, i'm not sure about other software people are using to play music, but Tidal has en "exclusive mode" that is supposed to reduce noise and i did find it made a difference when i started using it. I've tried Audirvana as well with Tidal and to me it sounded quite a bit worse. Of course that depends a bit on windows mixer and device settings because if the sample rate is not matched it messes with the file.
> At this point i honestly think people must have missed settings in windows/mac os that mess with the sound and that's why pc's get such a bad rep.
> Either way before trying out a streamer i need to get an M-scaler  and i barely got Dave yesterday. Going to be a while.


Your a dev.... build a Roon nuc... it’s fun and cheap compared to buying one... got a nice lift from this alone. I love the idea of a always on music appliance.


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> Not to be totally infuriating, but that sounds about right to me too! Maybe it was a bad choice of words but, what is a "real difference"?
> 
> If someone told me that they sat down and carefully tested a desktop and laptop and found a "substantial difference," "can't go back," I would say "sounds about right." If someone, like the OP, told me that they casually tried the same experiment "while doing other stuff" and they "forgot" which source was which, I would say "sounds about right." Same again with the jitterbug he mentioned.
> 
> ...


Well i can restate the tests i have made :
Dave from Naim555 with psu (30k streamer) using usb vs Node2i(300 euro streamer) using coax since it had no usb : small difference like you describe,but i can easily attribute that to no galvanic isolation on the coax.
Auralic Vega G1 streaming to itself off Tidal vs my Macbook pro 16 streaming to it via usb .Sounded absolutely identical. You would think sound doesn't get any "purer " than a dac streaming to itself.
Multiple tests on the old dac ,laptop vs desktop and jitterbug-same conclusion.
There's no Innuous dealer here unfortunately, just Auralic. I'll loan an Aries G1 at some point.That should be an obvious difference. My current dealer sells a ton of brands, but not a lot of streamers. Might be a reason for that, don't know.
I'm not on some crusade against streamers, if something can make Dave sound better for a reasonable amount i'm all for it. At the moment they just seem to be over-engineered neutered pcs .
   That Taiko extreme streamer is a joke if you ask me. Just because the bom adds up to 10-15k, doesn't mean it's a good product. Even if differences were so cataclysmic.
What i can't wrap my head around is if this streamer companies are so ahead of the curve and claim to fix everyone's dacs, why not make dacs themselves?


----------



## adrianm

radnor said:


> Your a dev.... build a Roon nuc... it’s fun and cheap compared to buying one... got a nice lift from this alone. I love the idea of a always on music appliance.


I tried going down that road, but supposedly unless you have linear power supplies and custom designed motherboards , you're doing it wrong and not reaping all the benefits. Something like an Allo bridge is not that hard to do,but  I'm not sure what would make that or a Nuc different from my desktop/laptop.


----------



## radnor

edwardsean said:


> Not to be totally infuriating, but that sounds about right to me too! Maybe it was a bad choice of words but, what is a "real difference"?
> 
> If someone told me that they sat down and carefully tested a desktop and laptop and found a "substantial difference," "can't go back," I would say "sounds about right." If someone, like the OP, told me that they casually tried the same experiment "while doing other stuff" and they "forgot" which source was which, I would say "sounds about right." Same again with the jitterbug he mentioned.
> 
> ...


I’m all for the sledge hammer in face metaphor... you should not be straining to hear diff..., it should be immediate and obv.  Going from fiio m15 to H2go.... immediate.  Obvious.... going from TAZ, Kann Cube etc to mTT2... immediate obvious.  Cables usually require attention.... they do make a slight difference... but when things require that much attention I would say their acquisition is more vanity vs utility. BACCH4MAC is the biggest sledgehammer in audiophile history... the difference is that extreme.... going from listening to great 2 channel to sitting IN the music hologram.


----------



## radnor

adrianm said:


> I tried going down that road, but supposedly unless you have linear power supplies and custom designed motherboards , you're doing it wrong and not reaping all the benefits. Something like an Allo bridge is not that hard to do,but  I'm not sure what would make that or a Nuc different from my desktop/laptop.


I did buy a linear power supply and put it in a fanless case... I hear a difference even on wireless connected devices such as H2GO


----------



## radnor

adrianm said:


> Well i can restate the tests i have made :
> Dave from Naim555 with psu (30k streamer) using usb vs Node2i(300 euro streamer) using coax since it had no usb : small difference like you describe,but i can easily attribute that to no galvanic isolation on the coax.
> Auralic Vega G1 streaming to itself off Tidal vs my Macbook pro 16 streaming to it via usb .Sounded absolutely identical. You would think sound doesn't get any "purer " than a dac streaming to itself.
> Multiple tests on the old dac ,laptop vs desktop and jitterbug-same conclusion.
> ...


Living in Silicon Valley I work in tech and always called bull crap on streamers.... until I tried it and was shocked.

When you begin to understand that the brain process sound faster than light.... think about that.  process sound faster than light.... it begins to make sense how even minute changes can make a difference.


----------



## adrianm

radnor said:


> Living in Silicon Valley I work in tech and always called bull crap on streamers.... until I tried it and was shocked.
> 
> When you begin to understand that the brain process sound faster than light.... think about that.  process sound faster than light.... it begins to make sense how even minute changes can make a difference.


Fair enough, do you have the specs for your nuc?


----------



## Malcyg

radnor said:


> Living in Silicon Valley I work in tech and always called bull crap on streamers.... until I tried it and was shocked.



I call bull crap on people who call bull crap on things that they have never even bothered to try out at all. I just don’t understand that mentality as it is the complete opposite of my approach. They can also very often be wrong about things. Takes all sorts I guess. 🤷🏼‍♂️


----------



## adrianm

Malcyg said:


> I call bull crap on people who call bull crap on things that they have never even bothered to try out at all. I just don’t understand that mentality as it is the complete opposite of my approach. They can also very often be wrong about things. Takes all sorts I guess. 🤷🏼‍♂️


Why?  As far as it's been discussed  what would affect streamers sounding different are noise floor modulation due to noise and jitter. Supposedly Dave is more or less immune to both of these phenomena. And as i udnerstood it the usb data is reclocked to Dave's master clock. Should be no issues there. I hardly think it's unreasonable to call snake oil on 25k streamers in the audio industry of all places. If there's something else these streamers "fix" it should be advertised as such and more transparent.
   So far the only reason i see is power regulation. Which would mean something's either getting past the galvanic isolation, or the streamers are just introducing so much noise that it's getting past and it's just distortion as Rob claims.


----------



## adrianm

Maybe you're right and  he can't be objective about his baby . I guess if the next DAVE will have an integrated streamer we'll know .


----------



## Christer

iDesign said:


> Very good post above that mirrors my experience with Stylus. I have also found Audirvana+ 3.5 with the SysOptimizer set to Extreme yields very good results on macOS. As to another post in the thread that generalized all MacBook Pro laptops being bright, this is not true. Although I don’t use a laptop as a source, I have found my late 2019 16-inch MacBook Pro (2.4 i9/ 64GB DDR4/ 5500M 8GB) is significantly quieter than my previous mid 2015 15-inch MacBook Pro (2.8 i7/16GB DDR3L) run from batteries. I agree Macs preform very well depending on the setup and I really haven’t heard massive gains to justify costly servers or the man-hours experimenting with custom NUCs. Of course my main source is the Blu Mk II and a CD which is simple bliss.



Interesting comparison between your two mbp's.
But when you say significantly quieter do you mean the mac itself making less noise like a less noisy fan? Or that some kind of electrical noise leaks into the actual music listening with one but less so with the other?
My two mbps are  lot older but I use my 17-inch mbp a lot via usb with Qutest/Mscaler and it sounds better with my hi res masterfiles than either of my current cd transports playing the same recording.
Clearly better!
I don't have a BLU2 but last night I could compare two versions of the same recording of  Elgar's unfinished 3rd Symphony. The first one the Naxos16/44.1 rbcd version and the second the Naxos DVD Audio 24/44.1version played via Qutest /Mscaler/optical from  the 10€ second hand DVD /CD player I bought last week.
I did not expect to hear much of a diffference. But in fact there was  bigger difference than I had expected.
I heard basically the same improvements in SQ I almost always hear from hi res files over the cd version on many other large scale symphonic and operatic works in my collection.
A more effortless reproduction of both very  low level ppp sections of the music and louder f to ff parts cleaner and more resolution and definition from the 24/44.1
And  it was also easier to hear where different instruments where in the hall  and with more air around them than on the rbcd version.

The 24/44.1DVD Audio version also had a slightly lower noise floor than the cd.
All in all simply better and more realistic and above all  even more enjoyable than the cd.
I am quite surprised that a  super-cheap dvd player connected via optical to an Mscaler was capable of revealing the limitations of 16  bit cd against  24 bit Audio.
Before getting the dvd player I found the Naxos cd version of Elgar's 3rd better sounding than the Chandos SACD layer of my other recording of that work.
And although BLU2 is even better with cds than my Quetest/Mscaler combo I also know that hi res done right sounds even more realistic than  Mscaled cds via Blu2.
All else equal the higher the resolution from the masterfile the better the SQ imho. 
I hope we'll get to hear  genuine 32/768  recordings from Rob before too long.
Cheers CC


----------



## Malcyg

adrianm said:


> Why?



Read his statement that I quoted


----------



## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> Well i can restate the tests i have made :
> Dave from Naim555 with psu (30k streamer) using usb vs Node2i(300 euro streamer) using coax since it had no usb : small difference like you describe,but i can easily attribute that to no galvanic isolation on the coax.
> Auralic Vega G1 streaming to itself off Tidal vs my Macbook pro 16 streaming to it via usb .Sounded absolutely identical. You would think sound doesn't get any "purer " than a dac streaming to itself.
> Multiple tests on the old dac ,laptop vs desktop and jitterbug-same conclusion.
> ...



I appreciate you both "sticking to your guns" while being willing to trying things out and even eventually being won over, but only when, and if, you can hear it for yourself. 

I always find myself asking for openness and respect. I'll be the first one to offer that I'm in process and there's so much I don't know that I'd like to learn. 

As to why streamer companies don't just make DACs. I suppose it would make some kind of fiscal sense, but just because they can make good servers doesn't mean they can make good DACs. Maybe they can, but that would require such a wide range of expertise. There is surely some overlap in making a server and a DAC, but I would think critical parts fall into territory they know little about. 

I have the highest respect for a company like Innuos and they make marvelous servers. It hurts my head to think of what competencies they would need to acquire and who they would need to hire to be able to make a DAC worthy of their servers. The last thing I would want is an Innuos branded DAC with an off-the-shelf DAC chip. 

To my mind, it might be easier for a great DAC company to build a server, like DCS. And again, I think the best one-box solution currently available is the Bartok. 

I would rejoice if Chord built something like this. Given the history I question if this is something they are interested in doing. However, they have the H2Go, which accomplishes what we're talking about in mobile miniature. Pound for pound, I think it is the best thing out there. Now, if only, if only, Rob Watts would be willing to make a 25 pound version.


----------



## adrianm

Malcyg said:


> Read his statement that I quoted


I did i just disagree. This streamer stuff is kinda counter intuitive.


----------



## adrianm

I've read that a lot of the Rendu's people here recommend die within a few years, cheap, sure but they seem kinda like throwaway electronics.
    By the time you add a linear psu to a Ultrarendu you can just buy an Aries G1 and save yourself the headaches.
     Regardless i'll try to get my hands on either an Aries G1 or an equivalent Innuous.
    The Auralic stuff had terrible build quality and the software was slow tbh. Even if there were sound quality gains i'm not sure the user experience downgrade compared to my desktop would be worth it. Not to mention the 2k price.


----------



## Malcyg

edwardsean said:


> I would rejoice if Chord built something like this. Given the history I question if this is something they are interested in doing. However, they have the H2Go, which accomplishes what we're talking about in mobile miniature. Pound for pound, I think it is the best thing out there. Now, if only, if only, Rob Watts would be willing to make a 25 pound version.



I totally agree with you here, and they did. I got my first Chord DAC 7-8 years ago - it was a DSX1000. A great piece that included a DAC, an inbuilt streamer and a pre amp with a high quality analogue volume control. It had inputs for other devices as well as Ethernet and a headphone amp with 1/4” output, so pretty much like a Bartok really. It looked and sounded great imo and remains probably the biggest step up that I have had in my system. I would love them to update this with newer technology and I will have a listen to Bartok when I get chance as I like the form factor.


----------



## Malcyg

adrianm said:


> I did i just disagree. This streamer stuff is kinda counter intuitive.



I am not talking about streamers at all. I am taking about calling bull crap on things when you have not even tried them out at all. I do not understand that mentality - how can anyone be so certain and dismissive about something that they have never tried? You get a lot of it on forums and it is very frustrating and quite tedious. If I listened to everyone who called bull crap, I’d still be listening to MP3 coz, you know, anything else is just a rip off.

There are people who call bull crap on DAC’s and say that they are all pretty much the same - and I’m not kidding, there are plenty of them, but you have just bought yourself a Dave. I imagine that is because you ignored those kind of people and tried one for yourself and good for you, it is very good indeed and will provide you with a lot of enjoyment.


----------



## Christer

adrianm said:


> Well i can restate the tests i have made :
> Dave from Naim555 with psu (30k streamer) using usb vs Node2i(300 euro streamer) using coax since it had no usb : small difference like you describe,but i can easily attribute that to no galvanic isolation on the coax.
> Auralic Vega G1 streaming to itself off Tidal vs my Macbook pro 16 streaming to it via usb .Sounded absolutely identical. You would think sound doesn't get any "purer " than a dac streaming to itself.
> Multiple tests on the old dac ,laptop vs desktop and jitterbug-same conclusion.
> ...


Hmm my guess is that if your only source is Tidal streaming that in itself may be a limitation that makes it difficult to hear  much of a difference?
Do you have any download or physical disc files to use?

I have very  little experience with any of these new streaming platforms. I personally prefer to own my music either on disc or as hi res files.
I have only auditioned Roon streaming a few times,never Tidal, but via very good HIGH END systems.
My own hi res download files  via laptop sounded better and more realistic than the Roon  streaming version of the same music there and then.
The only Internet streamed music I listen to is via channels like the BBC Radio 3 or other similar sources. But they never sound as good as my download hi res files via the same mbp/Qutest/Mscaler.
PS Enjoy your new Dave it is very good.
But even Dave benefits from an added Mscaler and not so little imho.
Cheers CC


----------



## radnor (Aug 12, 2020)

Malcyg said:


> I am not talking about streamers at all. I am taking about calling bull crap on things when you have not even tried them out at all. I do not understand that mentality - how can anyone be so certain and dismissive about something that they have never tried? You get a lot of it on forums and it is very frustrating and quite tedious. If I listened to everyone who called bull crap, I’d still be listening to MP3 coz, you know, anything else is just a rip off.
> 
> There are people who call bull crap on DAC’s and say that they are all pretty much the same - and I’m not kidding, there are plenty of them, but you have just bought yourself a Dave. I imagine that is because you ignored those kind of people and tried one for yourself and good for you, it is very good indeed and will provide you with a lot of enjoyment.


if you grew up in tech... streamers making a difference in audio quality are VERY counter intuitive... and 99% of engineers I know would immediately dismiss. Maby some network engineers would disagree... for philosophical reasons... but this is obscure to general population...... specifically people getting involved in hiend for the first time... "a 3K$ streamer!!!" they would all scream.

Audio is weird... i tested a DAVE VS A KANN CUBE in a store with utopia and could NOT hear a difference.

I took home a loaner mTT2 and was immediately floored.

I simply do not believe it is possible to test gear outside of a relaxed home environment.


----------



## adrianm

Malcyg said:


> There are people who call bull crap on DAC’s and say that they are all pretty much the same - and I’m not kidding, there are plenty of them, but you have just bought yourself a Dave. I imagine that is because you ignored those kind of people and tried one for yourself and good for you, it is very good indeed and will provide you with a lot of enjoyment.


I've been kicked off threads for arguing with those people, and about power filters making a difference (it was a shock to me as well,but with poorly designed gear like my sony ta it does ) it's quite shocking to some. I'm pretty much done trying to change people's minds. I did test cables and everything else in between. Some are horrible value for money, but do make a difference. With this source stuff i just never noticed a difference. And i do hear differences between cables for example,subtle as they are, so i'm not  tone def.
    I've been changing up usb vs optical on Dave from the pc. If i were pressed i'd say optical sounds a tiny bit better? But i'm sure i'd fail a blind test miserably.


----------



## mbj666

Christer said:


> Hmm my guess is that if your only source is Tidal streaming that in itself may be a limitation that makes it difficult to hear  much of a difference?
> Do you have any download or physical disc files to use?
> 
> I have very  little experience with any of these new streaming platforms. I personally prefer to own my music either on disc or as hi res files.
> ...



Direct hires streaming from a good server sounds much much better in my many experiences and tests than any streaming service, even when optimised the streamer route with lps, ether regen and quality ethernet cables using quobuz.  My innuos server beats it for sq comfortably every time.


----------



## adrianm

mbj666 said:


> Direct hires streaming from a good server sounds much much better in my many experiences and tests than any streaming service, even when optimised the streamer route with lps, ether regen and quality ethernet cables using quobuz.  My innuos server beats it for sq comfortably every time.


See , this makes more sense to me. Streaming from a local server vs off the internet. Maybe it's the player? Or for example Auralic claim their streamers sound better streaming Tidal directly vs Tidal via Roon on their servers because they have a larger cache and the streamer file is essentially " stored locally ". At least part of it.
Don't own any music unfortunately . Millennials


----------



## iDesign

Christer said:


> Or that some kind of electrical noise leaks into the actual music listening with one but less so with the other?


This.


----------



## adrianm

iDesign said:


> This.


Supposedly that's what the Galvanic isolation for. Plus say the Streamer has a 10k power supply with the best voltage regulation and etc. Dave still uses a run of the mill "medical " power supply and does just fine with it.  I suppose it is shielded from the rest of the circuits, but how much EMF/RF can really go through a galvanically isolated usb? Custom power supplies aside as most people aren't using them.


----------



## adrianm

Looking at the Zen Mk 3 i see it has an integrated mains filter. My pc's also plugged into an Isotek Mains filter, seems like a stretch but i'll switch it to a normal socket just for fun.


----------



## mbj666

iDesign said:


> This.


Agree on this electrical and mechanical noise plays a part I use ceramic pucks under my innuos/components and quadraspire svt bamboo rack aswell as a balanced transformer to help isolate kit from mains.  All which made a difference.  Plan on demoing niagara 3000 to improve mains feed further.  None of what I have mentioned is new/novel but just good setup practices for hifi kit


----------



## Arniesb

adrianm said:


> Supposedly that's what the Galvanic isolation for. Plus say the Streamer has a 10k power supply with the best voltage regulation and etc. Dave still uses a run of the mill "medical " power supply and does just fine with it.  I suppose it is shielded from the rest of the circuits, but how much EMF/RF can really go through a galvanically isolated usb? Custom power supplies aside as most people aren't using them.


LOL yeah right if galvanic isolation would solve noise problem then everyone would use it. Some people some time ago thought that earth is flat too!
Also lets not forget that Noise kills pc's already terrible clock performance.


----------



## adrianm

Arniesb said:


> LOL yeah right if galvanic isolation would solve noise problem then everyone would use it. Some people some time ago thought that earth is flat too!
> Also lets not forget that Noise kills pc's already terrible clock performance.


Doesn't everyone use it? it's certainly the buzzword with Auralic Stremers. And what part of what  justifies the G2 costing twice the G1. In their minds at least.


----------



## JMR77

I own an aries G1, build quality is up there with other gear of similar prices and the user experience of their app with Tidal is also very good IMO. Sound quality wise I'm also very happy with it. I don't own a Dave (yet) but in my experience some DACs may benefit more than others with a dedicated streamer, Chord dacs may be less source dependent (I won a Mojo and a Hugo 2). 

I was hoping that using an Ipad as my Tidal source would sound identical to a dedicated streamer, unfortunately for my wallet that's not what I heard.

For instance I own an AT-HA5050H and and M Scaler and I much prefer to feed the AT directly with Aries G1 and not use the M Scaler in the middle, which makes it sound worse. The  M Scaler works great for the Hugo 2 instead.


----------



## Arniesb

adrianm said:


> Doesn't everyone use it? it's certainly the buzzword with Auralic Stremers. And what part of what  justifies the G2 costing twice the G1. In their minds at least.


Im talking about dacs. Some say it actually worsen signal integrity.


----------



## edwardsean (Aug 12, 2020)

adrianm said:


> Supposedly that's what the Galvanic isolation for. Plus say the Streamer has a 10k power supply with the best voltage regulation and etc. Dave still uses a run of the mill "medical " power supply and does just fine with it.  I suppose it is shielded from the rest of the circuits, but how much EMF/RF can really go through a galvanically isolated usb? Custom power supplies aside as most people aren't using them.



Maybe we all know this but just in case:

The analog effects of noise is simpler to understand. There is signal and there is noise. The more noise pollution, the more signal that is masked.

The digital effects get really complex, but to radically oversimplify. Music exists in time, not just 4/4 or 5/8, but in all the waves from the slowest sub-bass to quickest transients. In our world those waves are converted into samples and carried by electrical impulses. These electrical impulses also exist in time, not just in the various clocking mechanisms but also the cycles of many components in the signal path. Noise comes into this signal path from external sources and is also internally radiated from these components themselves. All of this can corrupt critical timing at any number of points.

As for the Dave, its galvanic isolation is internal and closer to the DAC where you want it to be. I've heard from experts that the USB receiver and chipset itself is not galvanically isolated. I've come to learn from these experts that there is no perfect galvanic isolation. I would name these experts, but that would not be fair to them, because I'm sure they explained it to me expertly but I understood it as an amateur.

– As for the Dave's power supply. Sigh, how I am loathe to knock the Dave on any account. But, if you have to knock the Dave the power supply is where you would dock it points. There are many strategies for building good power supplies but they ordinarily require space. The Dave though is no ordinary DAC. The diminutive power supply is, I think, part of an overall streamlined design philosophy of producing as unfettered a signal path as possible. I don't think Rob Watts gave himself the challenge of a compact chassis nor do I think Chord constrained him in size. I think it was the other way round. He set out to deliver the purest sound possible and found it could fit inside a small form factor. However....

There is a reason why when you look at other world class DACs the first thing you notice is that they are bigger than Dave, much bigger. Many times that delta in size is due to the larger capacitor bank and hefty toroidal transformer of their power supply–that and the need to put some distance and isolation from that power supply. I don't know how much you can get around the sheer physics involved: Good sound must have good power; good power must have good amount of mass (i.e., capacitance, heavy gauge windings).

So, you're not going to like this either, but there are number of users who have upgraded Dave's internal power supply with a much, much larger retrofitted custom unit by Sean Jacobs. Same genius who designs the power supplies for Innuos. There is a wait, and mine should be just about built and ready for delivery.

Happy apologies for sharing all this with you, just as you got your Dave.


----------



## Arniesb

edwardsean said:


> Maybe we all know this but just in case:
> 
> The analog effects of noise is simpler to understand. There is signal and there is noise. The more noise pollution, the more signal that is masked.
> 
> ...


Bless you!


----------



## iDesign (Aug 12, 2020)

Arniesb said:


> LOL yeah right if galvanic isolation would solve noise problem then everyone would use it. Some people some time ago thought that earth is flat too!
> Also lets not forget that Noise kills pc's already terrible clock performance.


Correct. And that’s why I have never used USB based audio as my primary source because of the endless issues with streamers, servers, computers, streaming audio etc. It’s down a dirt road. As far as my comments about noise, you’re right. With SysOptimizer Extreme activated, I do perceive some audible differences as a result of its ability to increase the priority of Audirvana+ during playback to maximize the precision of the audio streaming. In addition, it deactivates all other resource intensive background operations that create activity on the disks which _could_ produce noise and interference. It will be a few years before I look at USB and streaming audio seriously— for now it’s nice option to listen to albums I’d never buy.


----------



## edwardsean

iDesign said:


> Correct. And that’s why I have never used USB based audio as my primary source because of the endless issues with streamers, servers, computers, streaming audio etc. It’s down a dirt road. As far as my comments about noise, you’re right. With SysOptimizer Extreme activated, I do perceive some audible differences as a result of its ability to increase the priority of Audirvana+ during playback to maximize the precision of the audio streaming. In addition, it deactivates all other resource intensive background operations that create activity on the disks which _could_ produce noise and interference. It will be a few years before I look at USB and streaming audio seriously— for now it’s nice option to listen albums I’d never buy.



USB is inherently problematic. But, because that's where the market landed, that's where the solutions are being developed.


----------



## Arniesb

iDesign said:


> Correct. And that’s why I have never used USB based audio as my primary source because of the endless issues with streamers, computers, streaming audio etc. It’s down a dirt road. As far as my comments about noise you’re right. With SysOptimizer Extreme activated, I do perceive some audible differences as a result of its ability to increase the priority of Audirvana+ during playback to maximize the precision of the audio streaming. In addition, it deactivates all other resource intensive background operations that create activity on the disks which _could_ produce noise and interference. It will be a few years before I look at USB and streaming audio seriously— for now it’s nice option to listen albums I’d never buy.


Too bad usb sucks cause if i would buy TT2 or Dave then on already big sum i would still need to buy streamer or Reclocker like Pheonix.
It sucks for users that dont have toslink input on laptops.
Dave sounded most amazing on Dealer's Macbook through toslink, but i dont have such input on my laptop and all this usb crap is killing me ha ha.


----------



## radnor

iDesign said:


> Correct. And that’s why I have never used USB based audio as my primary source because of the endless issues with streamers, servers, computers, streaming audio etc. It’s down a dirt road. As far as my comments about noise, you’re right. With SysOptimizer Extreme activated, I do perceive some audible differences as a result of its ability to increase the priority of Audirvana+ during playback to maximize the precision of the audio streaming. In addition, it deactivates all other resource intensive background operations that create activity on the disks which _could_ produce noise and interference. It will be a few years before I look at USB and streaming audio seriously— for now it’s nice option to listen albums I’d never buy.


NOT down a dirt road... i dont listen to music to have a repeatable experience... i listen to find NEW music and imprint and influence neural plasticity... regurgitating the past leads to a slow death. Streaming for me only.


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> Maybe we all know this but just in case:
> 
> The analog effects of noise is simpler to understand. There is signal and there is noise. The more noise pollution, the more signal that is masked.
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to explain  . I'm aware of most of  these facts, however ,while i'm certainly no expert, i'm also aware of the fact that part Dave takes basically an opposite approach compared to other  TOTL dacs, with more processing for better signal reconstruction, instead of external clocks for reduced processing times. Maybe the second approach is just more sensitive to power issues.
  Who knows? (Rob  but we won't believe him ).
  I'm super happy with the Dave,it's miles ahead of everything else i've heard, HMS+TT2 included.I was aware of these potential upgrades from the start. M-scaler first and other detours after  .I'll definitely have some at home demos of some streamers as well.


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## adrianm (Aug 12, 2020)

iDesign said:


> Correct. And that’s why I have never used USB based audio as my primary source because of the endless issues with streamers, servers, computers, streaming audio etc. It’s down a dirt road. As far as my comments about noise, you’re right. With SysOptimizer Extreme activated, I do perceive some audible differences as a result of its ability to increase the priority of Audirvana+ during playback to maximize the precision of the audio streaming. In addition, it deactivates all other resource intensive background operations that create activity on the disks which _could_ produce noise and interference. It will be a few years before I look at USB and streaming audio seriously— for now it’s nice option to listen to albums I’d never buy.


I think Tidal's "exclusive mode ". Or more correctly Wassapi exclusive mode does just that. I can understand why you guys say pc audio sounded bad ..5-6+ years ago (Not sure if it was around back then) but here's an explanation of it :

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/coreaudio/exclusive-mode-streams

Edit: it's apparently pretty old, at least 2011, just me who isn't .


----------



## adrianm

Arniesb said:


> Too bad usb sucks cause if i would buy TT2 or Dave then on already big sum i would still need to buy streamer or Reclocker like Pheonix.
> It sucks for users that dont have toslink input on laptops.
> Dave sounded most amazing on Dealer's Macbook through toslink, but i dont have such input on my laptop and all this usb crap is killing me ha ha.


I'm using it with my desktop and keep a/b'ing optical and usb, i might give the slightest edge to Optical but i can't be sure it's not placebo. Don't let that justify not getting a Dave 
  So far the only conclusion i can be certain of is that mqa sounds like sht.


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## adrianm

Did some checking and Tidal does indeed appear to  play some weirdly downsampled version of the MQA track if selecting Hi-fi and playing an MQA album.Which sounds worse than the Mqa and flac version


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## Malcyg

radnor said:


> if you grew up in tech... streamers making a difference in audio quality are VERY counter intuitive... and 99% of engineers I know would immediately dismiss. Maby some network engineers would disagree... for philosophical reasons... but this is obscure to general population...... specifically people getting involved in hiend for the first time... "a 3K$ streamer!!!" they would all scream.
> 
> Audio is weird... i tested a DAVE VS A KANN CUBE in a store with utopia and could NOT hear a difference.
> 
> ...



I understand your point, but it is just wrong to dismiss something based upon theory and prejudice alone. If you try something and then dismiss it, that’s fine. I have dismissed something twice in the past without trying it just based upon logic and my own prejudice and I was proven wrong on both counts once I tested it out for myself - so don’t rule anything out because you may be pleasantly surprised by something you were not expecting.

As for testing, at home in your own system is the only way for sure.


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## Malcyg (Aug 12, 2020)

adrianm said:


> See , this makes more sense to me. Streaming from a local server vs off the internet. Maybe it's the player? Or for example Auralic claim their streamers sound better streaming Tidal directly vs Tidal via Roon on their servers because they have a larger cache and the streamer file is essentially " stored locally ". At least part of it.
> Don't own any music unfortunately . Millennials



There are a number of reasons why sound quality can differ. For a long while I found CD > Local Files > Internet Files with internet some way behind - mainly due to noise issues and with CD obviously being the cleanest delivery. But there are logical reasons why local files should be able to sound at least as good as CD, if not better, so I persevered with improving my file delivery system. I am now at a point where Local Files > CD > Internet Files, but the gap between internet streaming has closed considerably and HiRes streaming from Qobuz can sound better than a CD. I always used Internet streaming as a last resort but now am more than happy using it and I hardly ever play CD’s any more.

There are several reasons for this, but moving house was a significant part because the house has been expertly fitted with both Ethernet throughout and a high quality electrical installation and this made quite a significant difference. I realised that a lot of the issues that I had been struggling with for quite some time were down to poor installation in my old house. But this is just an example of why we may hear different results - the whole eco structure is complex and rarely are two systems alike.


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## adrianm

Malcyg said:


> There are a number of reasons why sound quality can differ. For a long while I found CD > Local Files > Internet Files with internet some way behind - mainly due to noise issues and with CD obviously being the cleanest delivery. But there are logical reasons why local files should be able to sound at least as good as CD, if not better, so I persevered with improving my file delivery system. I am now at a point where Local Files > CD > Internet Files, but the gap between internet streaming has closed considerably and HiRes streaming from Qobuz can sound better than a CD. I always used Internet streaming as a last resort but now am more than happy using it and I hardly ever play CD’s any more.
> 
> There are several reasons for this, but moving house was a significant part because the house has been expertly fitted with both Ethernet throughout and a high quality electrical installation and this made quite a significant difference. I realised that a lot of the issues that I had been struggling with for quite some time were down to poor installation in my old house. But this is just an example of why we may hear different results - the whole eco structure is complex and rarely are two systems alike.


My power is terrible as i live in an apartment building.Which is why my mains filter helped so much with the previous dac. I'm genuinely curious to see tomorrow if actually has an effect on my pc as a source as well.For RF rejection. Maybe that's the reason why laptop sounds the same as desktop. Still think it's a far fetch, but what the hell.


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## adrianm

What's the consensus on usb vs optical from a laptop/pc? I read the posts where Rob changed his mind about preferring one over the other but i'm curious what others think.


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## iamoneagain (Aug 12, 2020)

-dup


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## iamoneagain (Aug 12, 2020)

I find the optical sounds better than usb out of my 2014 Mac mini. I also found that the optical somehow improved when I moved roon core to my main iMac and made the Mac mini an end point. With this setup, the Mac mini is almost idle just sending the signal thru.  Similar to what HQPlayer does with its network app.  But with roon, I send the pure signal thru, no upsampling.

With optical I hear just the slightest bit more texture and weight to the music. Bass sounds more natural. I hear these changes even thru the mscaler. I heard a similar difference when I used to have the Hugo 2.


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## iDesign (Aug 13, 2020)

radnor said:


> NOT down a dirt road...


MQA founder Bob Stuart, “hold my beer.”


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## Triode User

adrianm said:


> What's the consensus on usb vs optical from a laptop/pc? I read the posts where Rob changed his mind about preferring one over the other but i'm curious what others think.



From a potentially noisy laptop or pc I would suggest optical has the upper hand but with a well implemented streamer/server with quiet usb output (I'm thinking of Innuos or similar) then I prefer USB and there is an argument that ultimately it is the least noisy of the options. Innous say they measured the noise in optical circuits compared to well implemented USB and found less noise in the USB circuit. Hence why their top end units only have USB output.


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## Rob Watts

edwardsean said:


> Along with many others, this will remain an endless source of mystery to me. I know that you have conducted these experiments on your own and with Romaz at his home (Roy being the originator of that Audiophile Style thread).
> 
> Whose ears should we trust more than Rob Watts! I mean this with utmost sincerity.
> 
> ...



Actually we are in agreement on this. The best sounding source is the one that sounds smoothest or warm with the better sound-stage depth. That may come from a streamer. Or an isolated lap-top - whichever produces the lowest RF noise current injected into the DAC ground plane. I remember going from my Dell PC to the MSI lap-top and was shocked how much better it was. And differing lap-tops are different - my new Dell significantly degrades measurements on my APx 555 test gear so the MSI is now used to run the AP.

But my point is this - bit perfect servers can only affect the sound on my DACs by changing the RF noise levels within the DAC. To say that servers are more important than the DAC is complete nonsense. 

Also, from an RF noise POV the mobile phone on batteries using phone memory for tracks will provide the lowest noise possible, as it's inherently low power, and there is no possibility of ground loop currents, if the phone and cable is sited away from the DAC and ground.      



edwardsean said:


> ....
> As for the Dave, its galvanic isolation is internal and closer to the DAC where you want it to be. I've heard from experts that the USB receiver and chipset itself is not galvanically isolated. I've come to learn from these experts that there is no perfect galvanic isolation. I would name these experts, but that would not be fair to them, because I'm sure they explained it to me expertly but I understood it as an amateur.
> ...



Sorry but your "experts" are incorrect. The USB decoder is on the source side of the isolation, powered from the VBUS power on the USB cable. All that is transmitted is bit clock and pure PCM data across the isolator, so the FPGA has zero decoding to do - the word clock and master clock is transmitted from the FPGA to the interface chip over the isolator.

Indeed, removing the USB decoding is actually as important as the isolation itself, as the processing creates noise on the power and ground rails, and this significantly degrades SQ.


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## adrianm

TLDR : Swap the Innuous for an Ipod (should be even better than the Phone  )


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## Malcyg (Aug 13, 2020)

All these comparative solutions are somewhat meaningless without considering the use case scenario. If you are sat all alone at a desk with a Dave and a pair of headphones, then a battery powered laptop or a decent DAP with an optical output into Dave is going to be perfectly adequate and relatively difficult to beat. However if, like a fair few of us, your Dave is tucked away in the corner of your main room in a rack along with a number of other devices which are all plugged into the mains for power and feeding a pair of loudspeakers in order to deliver music that any number of people can enjoy, then the idea of passing a battery powered device (on a very long cable to Dave) around the room just isn’t an appropriate solution. Especially when any furniture and devices in that room have to live up to WAF expectations.

All of the items in the rack have to be carefully selected for system synergy and aesthetics as well as their individual performance. A lot of care is required to reduce and mitigate noise, not least the crud that Dave itself kicks back into the system and so this is a very different scenario than simply plugging a battery powered device directly into Dave and off you go. It sometimes seems that some people just don’t seem to get this - maybe single user headphone types are the vast majority of Dave users, but I’d be surprised if that were the case.


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## adrianm

Rob Watts said:


> Actually we are in agreement on this. The best sounding source is the one that sounds smoothest or warm with the better sound-stage depth. That may come from a streamer. Or an isolated lap-top - whichever produces the lowest RF noise current injected into the DAC ground plane. I remember going from my Dell PC to the MSI lap-top and was shocked how much better it was. And differing lap-tops are different - my new Dell significantly degrades measurements on my APx 555 test gear so the MSI is now used to run the AP.



Well i've got my Dave 2 days ago and i've been testing a bit. On most tracks i hear 0 difference between the laptop and desktop via usb (streaming tidal,using headphones,Sony MDR-Z1R,and Jitterbug for good measure) .
   However i have found what you're saying on Sarah Jarosz's "Ring Them Bells" . The instrument position does indeed change a bit, with a few degrees with the laptop the soundstage being a bit deeper. Using optical on the deskop does close the gap a bit, but usb from laptop is still better, i think? Hard to tell. Tonality wise everything is identical.


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## adrianm

This is the first time i've found any difference between sources and i had to go through dozens of tracks to find a passage where this was "obvious". Even then, only through careful a/b and differences were minor. But at least now i can say that they're real. Maybe my headphones aren't revealing enough. They're not going anywhere soon though (since i need closed-backs), so i'm really happy with my setup for now. I'm starting to question whether even adding the M-scaler is worth it, but i guess an audition will tell in a few months.
   I think there's nothing wrong with getting a streamer if you NEED a streamer, but even Innuous doesn't market them purely as sound quality upgrade, just good streamers. So i don't understand why other people are.
    For me personally a streamer on my desk is unnecessary, would just take up space and be an eyesore. I would have lived with it and the worse user experience if there was a substantial upgrade in sound quality, but i suspect that's far from the case with my music and setup. I will get an Aries G1 in here for a test eventually, after the M-scaler.
    Sorry for the spam and thanks for helping me get to the bottom of this  Also, thanks @Rob Watts for the Dave, it's a gem


----------



## edwardsean

Rob Watts said:


> Actually we are in agreement on this. The best sounding source is the one that sounds smoothest or warm with the better sound-stage depth. That may come from a streamer. Or an isolated lap-top - whichever produces the lowest RF noise current injected into the DAC ground plane. I remember going from my Dell PC to the MSI lap-top and was shocked how much better it was. And differing lap-tops are different - my new Dell significantly degrades measurements on my APx 555 test gear so the MSI is now used to run the AP.
> 
> But my point is this - bit perfect servers can only affect the sound on my DACs by changing the RF noise levels within the DAC. To say that servers are more important than the DAC is complete nonsense.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the gracious response and interaction! About the the exact nature of Dave's USB isolation, again, I wouldn't fault my "experts." They are experts, with some serious engineering chops. I'm sure I either understood it incorrectly or explained it incorrectly. I would pay cash money to be a fly on the wall as you discussed these matters with these fellows, I'm sure you know.

I do however trust my ears implicitly, having spent decades engineering music. So, like everyone, I think through the theory while I "reverse-engineer" my understanding. That is, my ears often tell me things which I have to then find theory to explain. 

Staying on topic, my custom built NUC sounds dramatically better than my low-noise SOtM stack. Many agree that these high-power NUCs sound better than low-power (low noise) servers produced by many audiophile companies. Along these same lines my PowerAdd battery pack runs completely off the grid. It is "clean"–but sounds mushy, blurry, and has poor dynamics and ability to handle transients compared to something with double regulation like my Farad Super3. The Farad uses super caps, so is also designed to be clean. My point is not that the Farad is functionally doing something other than a lithium ion battery, but that it is doing a great deal more. 

These things tell me that there is more to a source/server/streamer/player/reclocker than noise and RF. Certainly–reducing noise is the key–but there seems to be a complex of factors needed to turn the lock of SQ. So, I continue to enjoy learning and listening. For better or worse optimizing the system around Dave has become a source of endless fascination....


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## Triode User (Aug 13, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> Thank you for the gracious response and interaction! About the the exact nature of Dave's USB isolation, again, I wouldn't fault my "experts." They are experts, with some serious engineering chops. I'm sure I either understood it incorrectly or explained it incorrectly. I would pay cash money to be a fly on the wall as you discussed these matters with these fellows, I'm sure you know.
> 
> I do however trust my ears implicitly, having spent decades engineering music. So, like everyone, I think through the theory while I "reverse-engineer" my understanding. That is, my ears often tell me things which I have to then find theory to explain.
> 
> ...



Through all of this is the gap of understanding about what is ‘better’. The most convenient way to come to some agreement is to be listening together so we are actually listening to the same equipment and can point out which aspects we like and which we dislike.

To give some context, I have tried the Farad Super3 with the MScaler and found it gave a presentation littered with false dynamics and detail. Mind you, I dont disagree with some of what you say about the Poweradd, it is not my go to reference for a power supply reference.


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## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> Thank you for the gracious response and interaction! About the the exact nature of Dave's USB isolation, again, I wouldn't fault my "experts." They are experts, with some serious engineering chops. I'm sure I either understood it incorrectly or explained it incorrectly. I would pay cash money to be a fly on the wall as you discussed these matters with these fellows, I'm sure you know.
> 
> I do however trust my ears implicitly, having spent decades engineering music. So, like everyone, I think through the theory while I "reverse-engineer" my understanding. That is, my ears often tell me things which I have to then find theory to explain.
> 
> ...


A


edwardsean said:


> Thank you for the gracious response and interaction! About the the exact nature of Dave's USB isolation, again, I wouldn't fault my "experts." They are experts, with some serious engineering chops. I'm sure I either understood it incorrectly or explained it incorrectly. I would pay cash money to be a fly on the wall as you discussed these matters with these fellows, I'm sure you know.
> 
> I do however trust my ears implicitly, having spent decades engineering music. So, like everyone, I think through the theory while I "reverse-engineer" my understanding. That is, my ears often tell me things which I have to then find theory to explain.
> 
> ...


Could share your more information about your custom Nuc?


----------



## edwardsean

Triode User said:


> Through all of this is the gap of understanding about what is ‘better’. The most convenient way to come to some agreement is to be listening together so we are actually listening to the same equipment and can point out which aspects we like and which we dislike.
> 
> To give some context, I have tried the Farad Super3 with the MScaler and found it gave a presentation littered with false dynamics and detail. Mind you, I dont disagree with some of what you say about the Poweradd, it is not my go to reference for a power supply reference.



I agree. It's interesting how diversely we hear things, each in our subjectivity. And yet, I tend to find that I do hear what people are describing of the same gear, or at least understand why they interpret it that way. Listening and sharing communally is an indispensable part of developing our sense of good SQ. If we didn't have forums like this, I'm sure my sense of "better" would suffer the distortion of any number of subjective eccentricities. 

I'm the first to say, it has to sound good to you. However, we should each strive to inform ourselves from others what sounds good to us personally. The thing is, even when you are alone, listening to your headphone rig in complete isolation, you aren't alone. You take with you a personal perception of sound that was developed interpersonally. 

In a sense, we are always listening together.... (cue "Twilight Zone" music).  



adrianm said:


> Could share your more information about your custom Nuc?



It's nothing special. It follows the recipe found at one stage of the massive Audiophile Style thread: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/#comments

It's a NUC7i7DNBE in a fanless chassis, using 8Gb Apacer industrial RAM, an Optane Drive, powered by an upgraded Farad Super3 19V/3A, running Euphony/Stylus OS. This runs through a Monoprice optical extender to a USPCB to IsoRegen (LPS 1.2) to USPCB to Innuos Phoenix to a Sablon 2020 into Dave (waiting for an SJ custom power supply). All wiring is Zenwave silver cabling, fuses are SR Orange, audio files have been upscaled to PCM768 offline so as to produce no additional processing noise. 

I love it, but taking Nick's impression on board. I will be listening more carefully to the Farad. I think highly of it, but the AVX, Chemi-con caps are not my favorite, and I will probably swap them out for Mundorf Mlytics.


----------



## MacedonianHero

adrianm said:


> I'm sure it is, problem is i work from home with my fiancee, we're both programmers and we have a huge custom made L shaped desk. Even with closed backs if i turn the music up she can barely work. And i only listen at my desk . So i'm stuck with the Z1R untill some better closed backs come along. I was considering the Lcd-I4's but i doubt they're at the same level, let alone better. Plus all that eq finicking turned me off them.



Both the Focal Stellia and ZMF Verite Closed are significant improvements over the Z1R so you don't have to feel "stuck" with them.


----------



## Malcyg

edwardsean said:


> These things tell me that there is more to a source/server/streamer/player/reclocker than noise and RF. Certainly–reducing noise is the key–but there seems to be a complex of factors needed to turn the lock of SQ.



I think that this is the case as well. I believe it is very complex and various experts and designers have been learning more about this progressively in recent years. I think many of us use the term ’noise‘ as a catch all to cover a lot of things, including those we don’t understand.

I recall a few years back, I started looking into the whole concept of file delivery and came across Roy’s (Romaz) thread on servers (on a different forum I think) and, initially, I thought he was nuts. Then, as I read through it, I realised that I had experienced and agreed with a lot of what he said and I think various of his investigations and findings have actually helped push the envelope of product development in this area by challenging conventional norms. I also found, through personal contact that he is a really nice guy and this forum is the lesser from his absence.


----------



## Triode User

edwardsean said:


> I love it, but taking Nick's impression on board. I will be listening more carefully to the Farad. I think highly of it, but the AVX, Chemi-con caps are not my favorite, and I will probably swap them out for Mundorf Mlytics.



I have not given up on the Farad3 but have instead converted it from 15v to 5v and am going to try it instead with my Qutest.


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## radnor

MacedonianHero said:


> Both the Focal Stellia and ZMF Verite Closed are significant improvements over the Z1R so you don't have to feel "stuck" with them.


I’m hearing from others that this is just not the case... VC is a lateral move and NOT better than Z1R... it seems they are simply overrated. Stellia sounds thin.


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## radnor

My BNCcables are different lengths... will this effect mscaler to Dave?


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## Triode User

radnor said:


> My BNCcables are different lengths... will this effect mscaler to Dave?



Yes, it could do, I'm pretty sure they need to be the same length.


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## adrianm

radnor said:


> I’m hearing from others that this is just not the case... VC is a lateral move and NOT better than Z1R... it seems they are simply overrated. Stellia sounds thin.


Yeah i have to agree, i did audition  Dave with the Stellia as well as the  Z1R and found the Z1R has a larger soundstage, images better and sounds a lot more pleasing overall while retaining the same resolution.  I just didn't like it at all. 
    If i were to go open backed it would probably be something like the Lcd-4Z or Abyss but that's probably down the road. I guess i'm waiting for the next closed back flagship.


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## Malcyg (Aug 14, 2020)

Based upon my experience with Hugo 2Go which is a fabulous little device, I’m very curious as to how a tiny 2Go 2Yu combo might sound in a main system. Some of us might not like the answer! Certainly, for a headphone only user, it could be an absolute no brainer with up to 4 TB onboard and a plethora of networking options.


----------



## gnomen

Malcyg said:


> I’m very curious as to how a tiny 2Go 2Yu combo might sound in a main system


I have been wondering the same thing but have not seen any reports so far, either on the forum or in reviews.


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## adrianm

Malcyg said:


> Based upon my experience with Hugo 2Go which is a fabulous little device, I’m very curious as to how a tiny 2Go 2Yu combo might sound in a main system. Some of us might not like the answer! Certainly, for a headphone only user, it could be an absolute no brainer with up to 4 TB onboard and a plethora of networking options.


You know i was actually considering one to use with Dave instead of DIY streamers and etc. Not sure how one would go about streaming with it. I assume i'd have to get Roon.


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## Malcyg

Triode User said:


> Yes, it could do, I'm pretty sure they need to be the same length.



Pretty sure Rob said it would affect the timing and was to be avoided, but don’t ask me to trawl back and find the quote. 😉


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## Mircea C. (Aug 14, 2020)

Arniesb said:


> Too bad usb sucks cause if i would buy TT2 or Dave then on already big sum i would still need to buy streamer or Reclocker like Pheonix.
> It sucks for users that dont have toslink input on laptops.
> Dave sounded most amazing on Dealer's Macbook through toslink, but i dont have such input on my laptop and all this usb crap is killing me ha ha.



I use one of this for my Hugo 2 out of my MacBook pro https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B072BWTCL9/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It's small and suitable for mobile use and I get better sound compared with usb-c to micro-usb cheap cable used direct from Mac to Hugo 2. Of course Hugo 2 does not have galvanic isolation on USB port.

For my fixed system, I'm feeding the Mscaler/Dave with Toslink from a Raspberry pi with Digi+ Pro hat which cost me 140 Eur (including the case). Again, I get a better sound than from my Auralic Aries Mini USB out (not as big a difference as with Hugo 2).

It also seems there is no difference between plastic and fibre glass cables (still testing) - maybe because of the Chord immunity to jitter. No difference between powering the Raspberry Pi with its crap SMPS or with a battery.

I did not try expensive USB solutions but I have the feeling that with Toslink, for Chord products, you can get great sound for small amounts of money. I am also thinking you need to spend considerably more to get the same sound from a USB source. Just my thoughts though.


----------



## Triode User

Malcyg said:


> Pretty sure Rob said it would affect the timing and was to be avoided, but don’t ask me to trawl back and find the quote. 😉



Malc, Yeah, I have the same recollection but likewise I wasn't going to go looking for the exact quote.


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## Christer (Aug 14, 2020)

radnor said:


> I’m hearing from others that this is just not the case... VC is a lateral move and NOT better than Z1R... it seems they are simply overrated. Stellia sounds thin.




Hmm, one piece of advice, please LISTEN to the products yourself before you make strong comments on their  relative strengths or weaknesses SQ-wise.

Anyway,
my personal take on the Sony Z1R  after having listened to  it quite extensively  via both Dave/HMS and TT2 /HMS and Qutest/HMS, and other systems, is that like ALL closed headphones I have EVER auditioned it is coloured and closed in and a bit BOXY compared to similarly priced open headphones.

Good sound being closed headphones yes, but not nearly good enough for me for long term listening.

I listen exclusively to acoustic music and most often large scale symphonic and Opera.
Another  example of colouration and boxiness in high priced closed headphones is Sennheiser's HD820 against their open versions.
My take on it, more expensive, but actually worse  than the 800 SQ wise.

I am NOT aware of ANY closed headphone that sounds as open and transparent and  realistic as open backed ones, be they conventional dynamic driver based ones or planar or electrostatic ones.
Are there even any closed back planars or electrostats?

Closed back will always involve  audible compromises SQ wise in my experience.

The best most realistic and highest resolving  headphones I've heard with Dave/HMS  are  Susvara with an expensive high quality headphone amp added, or electrostats  like 009S from Stax and the Utopia.
The Raal SR1A might be interesting too with Dave/HMS and an amp that can drive them. And the HEDD may also be interesting to pair with a Dave/HMS.
The HEDD is probably one that one can run directly via Dave /HMS without the need for an external headphone amp I guess?
But I haven't heard it  yet so I won't comment further until I have.
The cheaper headphones like Stellia from Focal are cheaper for a good  reason. They are simply not as good as Utopia!
The same goes for the cheaper HIFI man headphones too.
My own HD800 and HEKV2 are good enough with my Qutest/HMS, and both clearly better than the SonyZ1R.
Notably the HEKV2, which comes reasonably close to Dave/HMS Susvara with some of my acoustic music  reference material when  considering the HUGE price difference involved.

The difference I can clearly hear is simply not worth the extra 10-20k€ or so I'd have to pay over my current Q/HMS/HEKV2.
But if you ask me if the Susvara/Dave/HMS/ headphone amp sounds better than my combo? I'd say, yes it does, clearly better.
But if like some here, you mainly listen to "electronica" music you couldn't hear what's best anyway imho.
Cheers CC


----------



## Malcyg

Christer said:


> Hmm, one piece of advice, please LISTEN to the products yourself before you make strong comments on their  relative strengths or weaknesses SQ-wise.
> 
> Anyway,
> my personal take on the Sony Z1R  after having listened to  it quite extensively  via both Dave/HMS and TT2 /HMS and Qutest/HMS, and other systems, is that like ALL closed headphones I have EVER auditioned it is coloured and closed in and a bit BOXY compared to similarly priced open headphones.
> ...



Totally agree with all of that, and I own quite a bit of the stuff you refer to including HD800, HD820, Utopia and Susvara, which I traded up to from HEKV2. I got the 820 at less than half price and, whilst your description is spot on, they do a job for me under certain circumstances, though they are never selected for any serious listening.

One interesting point is the way it became trendy some while back to slate the HD800 - everyone did it with impunity because, you know, 6k spike and all that. Now granted it is relatively easy to make HD800 sound bad, but in the right setup, they can sound superb and still stack up against headphones that cost 4 times what I paid for mine 10 years back. I had a good try out for a couple of weeks with HD800S which everyone agrees is much better except it isn’t imo. I kept my 800 and got the HEKV2 instead.

As for not volunteering an opinion without solid experience to back it up, well you should know better than that, this is the internet - but I know you are a bit of a luddite technology wise. 😉


----------



## iamoneagain

Is there any consensus on what the best open and closed headphone pairings straight out of the Dave are?  When I chose my Focal Utopia, I was originally hoping the Hugo 2 pairing would be ideal but I found it too thin. Think it sounds perfect out of the Dave. But the thought was to get one of the best headphones that was efficient enough not to need a separate amp.


----------



## adrianm

Christer said:


> Hmm, one piece of advice, please LISTEN to the products yourself before you make strong comments on their  relative strengths or weaknesses SQ-wise.
> 
> Anyway,
> my personal take on the Sony Z1R  after having listened to  it quite extensively  via both Dave/HMS and TT2 /HMS and Qutest/HMS, and other systems, is that like ALL closed headphones I have EVER auditioned it is coloured and closed in and a bit BOXY compared to similarly priced open headphones.
> ...


There are closed back planars, and they are awesome, just not at TOTL level. Oppo pm-3s. Had a pair for well over a year. And they were pretty damn neutral compared to Z1R
"clearly better" is pretty subjective. If i were to get open backs it certainly wouldnt be an hd800, but to each his own.
That all sound fine if you're just listening in a quiet room, not so much if you have 2 laptops with fans going crazy + a desktop, mechanical keyboard and neighbours drilling holes all day.
   I listen to all kinda of music, not a lot of electronic, but still i find the content to be the main bottleneck. For me the Z1R hits the spot for everything i listen to, and i know a few others that prefer it over a lot of more expensive stuff


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> Is there any consensus on what the best open and closed headphone pairings straight out of the Dave are?  When I chose my Focal Utopia, I was originally hoping the Hugo 2 pairing would be ideal but I found it too thin. Think it sounds perfect out of the Dave. But the thought was to get one of the best headphones that was efficient enough not to need a separate amp.


I got my Dave specifically because of how much i love my Z1R, i found it sounded way to bassy with the Sony TA-ZH1ES, Dave being neutral as it is i think it's a match made in heaven. I love the bit of extra warmth they offer.I found the Stellia to sound thin and lifeless out of Dave.


----------



## Christer (Aug 14, 2020)

adrianm said:


> There are closed back planars, and they are awesome, just not at TOTL level. Oppo pm-3s. Had a pair for well over a year. And they were pretty damn neutral compared to Z1R
> "clearly better" is pretty subjective. If i were to get open backs it certainly wouldnt be an hd800, but to each his own.
> That all sound fine if you're just listening in a quiet room, not so much if you have 2 laptops with fans going crazy + a desktop, mechanical keyboard and neighbours drilling holes all day.
> I listen to all kinda of music, not a lot of electronic, but still i find the content to be the main bottleneck. For me the Z1R hits the spot for everything i listen to, and i know a few others that prefer it over a lot of more expensive stuff


Don't worry be happy! You have a Dave. I haven't got a Dave!

I only compared the Z1R to even better headphones  used under more ideal listening conditions than yours. I'd also be  happy listening to a Dave/HMS and Z1Rs in a noisier environment than mine.
But I live in a house in the countryside and now that the birds have more or less stopped singing all I hear even with an open window at night is the wind sometimes rustling  the leaves of my big old cherry tree outside.
Gettting back on topic  of Dave again, it is easy to hear if an  Mscaler has been added or not, with the Z1R too.
"Clearly better" in an objective way,with even more realistic sound quality and  even less digital sounding than without HMS imho.
Cheers CC


----------



## radnor

Triode User said:


> Malc, Yeah, I have the same recollection but likewise I wasn't going to go looking for the exact quote.


@Rob Watts can you clarify?  I have expensive bnc cables but one is longer than the other... I don't seem to hear a difference.... can this make an impact?


----------



## radnor

iamoneagain said:


> Is there any consensus on what the best open and closed headphone pairings straight out of the Dave are?  When I chose my Focal Utopia, I was originally hoping the Hugo 2 pairing would be ideal but I found it too thin. Think it sounds perfect out of the Dave. But the thought was to get one of the best headphones that was efficient enough not to need a separate amp.


Audeze lcd 4z...  again audeze tuned these to H2 and Dave.. they are effectively made for the chord sig.... fantastic synergy.


----------



## adrianm

Christer said:


> Don't worry be happy! You have a Dave. I haven't got a Dave!
> 
> I only compared the Z1R to even better headphones  used under more ideal listening conditions than yours. I'd also be  happy listening to a Dave/HMS and Z1Rs in a noisier environment than mine.
> But I live in a house in the countryside and now that the birds have more or less stopped singing all I hear even with an open window at night is the wind sometimes rustling  the leaves of my big old cherry tree outside.
> ...


That sounds nice  Listening to the same Norah Jones track on Dave+Z1R  and then on my airpods pro while doing dishes , i thought " this doesn't sound nearly as bad as i was expecting considering the price delta" .
 I honestly think  the impact a lot of stuff here like streamers,cables and psu's are overblown, while i'm not disputing they do make some difference, people either  :
- Have systems that are a lot more revealing 
- Listen to better recorded music than i do
- Have way more disposable income
- Have more free time to stress over it
- Feel the need to "improve " or change something once in a while
Or all of the above to argue that said tweaks are that imperative.
 I, for one, got Dave so i can plug any old cable in and never have to worry about this and power and crap . And so far it has proven to be more or less immune, as claimed by Rob. Even if said streamers make such a difference, unless it's more than the delta from my Airpods to Dave, i'd rather buy a second setup for the office then endlessly tweak this one.


----------



## edwardsean

Hey, just in case it's not common knowledge, Synergistic Research is having a buy 2 get 3 sale on Orange fuses during August. Of course U.S. Dave has no need for it, but if any of your ancillary gear could use it, they are pretty amazing. I know on the list of "snake oil" products fuses rate near the top, but as recently mentioned, you should hear it before you dismiss it. 

They sound fabulous and one of the things that Dave gets regularly knocked for is a "thinner" sound, esp. when compared against e.g., dCS, PSAudio, etc. These fuses provide a lovely analog density as well enhance Dave's strengths of air and space.


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> one of the things that Dave gets regularly knocked for is a "thinner" sound


Not with the Z1R


----------



## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> Not with the Z1R



Definitely! My planar magnetic LCDi4s impart a fuller, warmer sound, perhaps not like the Z1R though. 

I am also referencing something beside this which is timbral "density," the weight and tactility in which notes are rendered. This is more difficult to address at the transducer. The way power is handled by components comes into play here very significantly.


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> Definitely! My planar magnetic LCDi4s impart a fuller, warmer sound, perhaps not like the Z1R though.
> 
> I am also referencing something beside this which is timbral "density," the weight and tactility in which notes are rendered. This is more difficult to address at the transducer. The way power is handled by components comes into play here very significantly.


Oh, that's interesting, i see what you mean. Haven't heard it yet though. In this respect stock Dave, even with no HMS is the best i've heard so far.


----------



## Rob Watts

radnor said:


> @Rob Watts can you clarify?  I have expensive bnc cables but one is longer than the other... I don't seem to hear a difference.... can this make an impact?



It's not about sound quality but differing lengths gives different delays. Dave uses sync detection, so the different delays can affect this - you would know if you had problems with drop-outs or complete failure of 705/768 kHz dual data operation.


----------



## radnor

Rob Watts said:


> It's not about sound quality but differing lengths gives different delays. Dave uses sync detection, so the different delays can affect this - you would know if you had problems with drop-outs or complete failure of 705/768 kHz dual data operation.


Zero issues or dropouts with 768.  I have not noticed any issue... so just wondering.


----------



## ubs28

adrianm said:


> Not with the Z1R



Well, the Z1R even makes the AFC2 sound thin, while the AFC2 already has a bass boost. It is just a very coloured headphone


----------



## adrianm

ubs28 said:


> Well, the Z1R even makes the AFC2 sound thin, while the AFC2 already has a bass boost. It is just a very coloured headphone


By "audiophile standards" i guess so. Dead neutral headphones just sound dead to me.


----------



## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> By "audiophile standards" i guess so. Dead neutral headphones just sound dead to me.



At the end of the day, you gotta go with what makes the music move you.


----------



## radnor (Aug 16, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> At the end of the day, you gotta go with what makes the music move you.


no bass you have a ghost.  4z or TC are the only options... susvara if you are listening to people breathing.... open is a toss up... im sticking with my Z1R... as it sounds great with the H2GO and TT2.. and I use this as my default for hiking etc if things are a little rough... take 4Z on gentle hikes... NOT trail running. Id like to see Audeze could make an LCD4Z closed version. Now that hifi man has their closed I expect we will see a 4Z closed soon.


----------



## radnor

DAVE arrives Monday... excited to do some AB with the TT2.... mscaler... H2... etc...

Will be putting my almost new silver TT2 up for sale in the next week.... hoping for a big SQ bump with the Dave that actually makes me want to sit in the listening room vs wandering around the pad with the H2GO. Anyone interested in TT2 before ai post feel free to PM.


----------



## ubs28

radnor said:


> DAVE arrives Monday... excited to do some AB with the TT2.... mscaler... H2... etc...
> 
> Will be putting my almost new silver TT2 up for sale in the next week.... hoping for a big SQ bump with the Dave that actually makes me want to sit in the listening room vs wandering around the pad with the H2GO. Anyone interested in TT2 before ai post feel free to PM.



Congrats. Let me know how the 2GO + YU sounds with the Chord Dave later when the 2YU finally ships.

If it actually boosts the sound quality of the Chord Dave significantly and Chord irons out all bugs so that it is atleast on the same level as my other streaming devices, I might reconsider buying the 2GO again (with the 2YU)


----------



## radnor

ubs28 said:


> Congrats. Let me know how the 2GO + YU sounds with the Chord Dave later when the 2YU finally ships.
> 
> If it actually boosts the sound quality of the Chord Dave significantly and Chord irons out all bugs so that it is atleast on the same level as my other streaming devices, I might reconsider buying the 2GO again (with the 2YU)


Not buying a 2yu.  That thing is frankenstein.  I bought 2go to create the worlds best DAP for portable.


----------



## adrianm

Was just registering my warranty  when i noticed the serial number, close to 47k Daves sold, not bad for such a high end product


----------



## radnor

The actual serial number probably does not reflect the amount of units sold.  47,000 units seems awfully high


----------



## number1sixerfan

radnor said:


> DAVE arrives Monday... excited to do some AB with the TT2.... mscaler... H2... etc...
> 
> Will be putting my almost new silver TT2 up for sale in the next week.... hoping for a big SQ bump with the Dave that actually makes me want to sit in the listening room vs wandering around the pad with the H2GO. Anyone interested in TT2 before ai post feel free to PM.



Eagerly await the comparisons. Deciding between the two and it hasn't been easy.


----------



## radnor

number1sixerfan said:


> Eagerly await the comparisons. Deciding between the two and it hasn't been easy.


It had better be easy! Or I sell the Dave! I am expecting at least the difference between H2 and mTT2


----------



## radnor

Come Monday I will have the full chord product suite in house.... mojopoly, H2go, tt2, Dave and mscaler..... what the hell happened!


----------



## number1sixerfan

radnor said:


> It had better be easy! Or I sell the Dave! I am expecting at least the difference between H2 and mTT2



lolll!!


----------



## adrianm

radnor said:


> It had better be easy! Or I sell the Dave! I am expecting at least the difference between H2 and mTT2


It took me 15 seconds to decide between mtt2 and dave in the store


----------



## sm60

adrianm said:


> It took me 15 seconds to decide between mtt2 and dave in the store


Just bought a new Dave and a used Blu Mk2 (no longer being sold as new in the US). Chord is definitely “bleeding edge” as far as digital goes. Reminded me of when I bought a high end medium format Hasselblad camera. Seems simple, right. I mean, what could go wrong? Put on the lens, charge the batteries and go out and snap some great pictures. Ha! The first thing that happened is the the Hasselblad locked up.  Its software was quite buggy. Had to spend a few days rolling back the firmware till I got it working. When it did, it produced the most amazing pictures I’ve ever seen. It got the color right like no other camera I’ve seen.

As you can guess where I’m going, the Chord duo is no different. Stacked them in the nice Chord stand, hooked them up to my preamp, played back a test track, and got DISTORTED sound! You’d think buying a digital front end that costs as much as a nice car would give you pleasure.  Nada. Like the Hasselblad, owning the Chord means having to put up with less than stellar software, and trial and error. Ok, check the BNC connectors.  Check the USB connector. Make sure the Roon server is seeing the Blu player.  All good. Try again. Wham, more DISTORTION! What in the blazes? Unlike the Hasselblad, with the Chord, there is no option for installing software updates.  Ok, if all else fails, power cycle, repeat. Eventually, I got the duo to work. And like the Hasselblad, once it’s working, the sound is very fine indeed. A notch above the Auralic Vega I was using before. But anyone expecting that owning the Chord Blu/Dave combo will be a smooth ride is in for a rude shock. You have to understand this is a bleeding edge product. Like my Tesla, you get fabulous results, but the software can be flakey. At least Tesla updated the software in my car a dozen or more times. No such luck with the Chord.


----------



## radnor (Aug 19, 2020)

sm60 said:


> Just bought a new Dave and a used Blu Mk2 (no longer being sold as new in the US). Chord is definitely “bleeding edge” as far as digital goes. Reminded me of when I bought a high end medium format Hasselblad camera. Seems simple, right. I mean, what could go wrong? Put on the lens, charge the batteries and go out and snap some great pictures. Ha! The first thing that happened is the the Hasselblad locked up.  Its software was quite buggy. Had to spend a few days rolling back the firmware till I got it working. When it did, it produced the most amazing pictures I’ve ever seen. It got the color right like no other camera I’ve seen.
> 
> As you can guess where I’m going, the Chord duo is no different. Stacked them in the nice Chord stand, hooked them up to my preamp, played back a test track, and got DISTORTED sound! You’d think buying a digital front end that costs as much as a nice car would give you pleasure.  Nada. Like the Hasselblad, owning the Chord means having to put up with less than stellar software, and trial and error. Ok, check the BNC connectors.  Check the USB connector. Make sure the Roon server is seeing the Blu player.  All good. Try again. Wham, more DISTORTION! What in the blazes? Unlike the Hasselblad, with the Chord, there is no option for installing software updates.  Ok, if all else fails, power cycle, repeat. Eventually, I got the duo to work. And like the Hasselblad, once it’s working, the sound is very fine indeed. A notch above the Auralic Vega I was using before. But anyone expecting that owning the Chord Blu/Dave combo will be a smooth ride is in for a rude shock. You have to understand this is a bleeding edge product. Like my Tesla, you get fabulous results, but the software can be flakey. At least Tesla updated the software in my car a dozen or more times. No such luck with the Chord.


I dated a chick in Morgan hills. I showed her my Dave.

She liked it.

All the ladies like Dave.


----------



## radnor (Aug 19, 2020)

I have searched through the mscaler, TT2 and Dave thread for a SIMPLE answer to this.... is mDAVE much better than mTT2? There are a few that have listened in a home environment and have concluded the mDave is indeed better than the mTT2... there are however another contingent that say mTT2 is better than Dave... the peopel that say this have a TT2 (obviously).

I will answer this question clearly so that anyone seeking an answer can finally rest and make a decision.

Tonight I received my DAVE... listened briefly (doing NO A/B) before a hike.... sounded great... seemed more open than mTT2... NOTICE... my memory of mTT2 was from the night prior... thus my 1st experience with mDAVE absent a direct A/B seemed that it was more open and had greater clarity.... but it was hard to make a call on how much better it was VS mTT2...what I am saying is that memory of sound is virtually impossible to recall... we only hold a whisper and maybe remember 20% of the SQ.....

When I got back from the hike i began the A/B session.... started with mDAVE once again.... there were a few tracks that struck me with their realism... thinking to myself.... hmmm this seems different....

when I moved back to mTT2 after about an hour I was shocked at how lifeless the sound was.... it literally seemed like the soul of the music was gone and it was flat.... the only way to describe it is that mDAVE has atmospherics that simply DO NOT EXIST on the mTT2.

SO

mDAVE is unequivocally without doubt... substantially better than mTT2. PERIOD.

The sense of life and realism imparted by the atmospherics was completely absent for mTT2... I'd say buy a DAVE with mscaler if you can... my TT2 goes on sale tomorrow.

sidenote will have a BARTOK this weekend or next.... this is the shootout I am looking forward to . mDAVE VS BARTOK.... I have a suspicion there is a little too much hype in the BARTOK camp... lets see.


----------



## adrianm

radnor said:


> it literally seemed like the soul of the music was gone and it was flat.... the only way to describe it is that mDAVE has atmospherics that simply DO NOT EXIST on the mTT2.


This is exactly what i thought of Dave vs mTT2. I'm curious what you think of Dave vs mDave ,since it was clear to me a large part of that difference was not attributed to the M-scaler or taps in general . mTT2 sounded as lifeless as TT2 to me, just technically better.


----------



## Triode User (Aug 19, 2020)

radnor said:


> I have searched through the mscaler, TT2 and Dave thread for a SIMPLE answer to this.... is mDAVE much better than mTT2? There are a few that have listened in a home environment and have concluded the mDave is indeed better than the mTT2... there are however another contingent that say mTT2 is better than Dave... the peopel that say this have a TT2 (obviously).
> 
> I will answer this question clearly so that anyone seeking an answer can finally rest and make a decision.
> 
> ...



The transparency of Dave is unsurpassed IMO and that transfers through to MDave. From time to time on here the matter of MTT2 vs Dave solo pops up and there are many of us who prefer the solo Dave but then I do not have any headphones where the TT2 ability to drive them might win through. (In fact I do not have any headphones at all).


----------



## radnor

adrianm said:


> This is exactly what i thought of Dave vs mTT2. I'm curious what you think of Dave vs mDave ,since it was clear to me a large part of that difference was not attributed to the M-scaler or taps in general . mTT2 sounded as lifeless as TT2 to me, just technically better.


Need to test that setup.... will try to test multiple permutations and also have someone with better ears than me also weigh in and then I’ll report back.


----------



## radnor

Triode User said:


> The transparency of Dave is unsurpassed IMO and that transfers through to MDave. From time to time on here the matter of MTT2 vs Dave solo pops up and there are many of us who prefer the solo Dave but then I do not have any headphones where the TT2 ability to drive them might win through. (In fact I do not have any headphones at all).


I had susvara.... was not a fan... tt2 drove fine.... however I am now intrigued to hear it with an mDave and amp.... but I think you only run into issues with susvara and TC via Dave.... 

Yes I am excited to try mDave in 2chan.


----------



## STR-1

Triode User said:


> (In fact I do not have any headphones at all).


Get some headphones, don’t deny yourself the experience.🙂


----------



## Triode User

STR-1 said:


> Get some headphones, don’t deny yourself the experience.🙂



 I did. The experience taught me that headphones are not for me. I sold them.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> I did. The experience taught me that headphones are not for me. I sold them.


Makes me feel like there should be a separate thread for Dave with speakers and Headphones. Maybe the magnitude of the differences from all this tweaking is different depending on the use case.


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> Makes me feel like there should be a separate thread for Dave with speakers and Headphones. Maybe the magnitude of the differences from all this tweaking is different depending on the use case.



Well this is a headphone forum. I usually assume when we’re talking about audio equipment here, it’s being talked about with headphones in mind. For me the big appeal of the Dave is that it’s an end game dac with a transparent headphone jack. You don’t have to worry about separate headphone amp, well except for a few headphones.


----------



## edwardsean (Aug 19, 2020)

radnor said:


> sidenote will have a BARTOK this weekend or next.... this is the shootout I am looking forward to . mDAVE VS BARTOK.... I have a suspicion there is a little too much hype in the BARTOK camp... lets see.



I'm curious to hear your impression on mDave vs. Bartok. There is a lot of hype around Bartok, but for very good reason I feel. I don't think you'll find it lacking in comparison to Dave and may actually prefer it–depending on how you're running Dave. The mDave will have the edge on transparency, imaging precision, timbral accuracy. The Bartok will take the upper hand on soundstage size, dynamics, and tonal density (esp. running balanced phones).

A major difference, of course, is that you are not just comparing DAC/amp to DAC/"amp" (Dave). Bartok has the dCS Network Bridge board built in. This is a $5K streamer/server/player which adds to the cost of the Bartok and contributes significantly to its performance.

If I had to choose: running straight from a PC/Mac desktop or laptop to Dave vs. a USB drive into Bartok, I would take the Bartok, in no small part because of the dCS NB. The matter shifts the other way toward Dave when the surrounding system is built up well.

I'm glad you're going to have the chance to audition Bartok, because like the A/B between TT2 and Dave,  you don't know what you're missing until you hear it. Listening to the mTT2 in isolation, it's hard to imagine it could sound "lifeless." Now, the same goes for certain aspects of Dave, enter Bartok.

I'm going to follow up in a separate post on getting the best of both worlds, i.e., accuracy/transparency and soundstage/density, by building a system around Dave.


----------



## Triode User

iamoneagain said:


> Well this is a headphone forum. I usually assume when we’re talking about audio equipment here, it’s being talked about with headphones in mind. For me the big appeal of the Dave is that it’s an end game dac with a transparent headphone jack. You don’t have to worry about separate headphone amp, well except for a few headphones.



I think you might be surprised just how many of us on here are speaker system only. Certainly I correspond regularly with a number of fellow Head-Fi Dave owners who only have speakers and no headphones. You headphone owners miss out on that satisfying moment when you can feel the bass notes through ones body. Apart from that we are all in it for the same pursuit of sound quality.


----------



## Glossator

Triode User said:


> I think you might be surprised just how many of us on here are speaker system only. Certainly I correspond regularly with a number of fellow Head-Fi Dave owners who only have speakers and no headphones. You headphone owners miss out on that satisfying moment when you can feel the bass notes through ones body. Apart from that we are all in it for the same pursuit of sound quality.



I am sure that you are, if I can put it like this, not "wrong" re speakers ... 

However, one of the really weird things I have discovered from (practically enforced) headphone only via Focal Utopia (which I understand from what others say is not as well endowed down below as other headphones are) listening to a DAVE [as yet without a DC4!] (and upgraded cable) is that you can in part "feel" base.  There is a sensation of "feeling" the sound rather than just "hearing" it through your ears.    This has been very unexpected - it is a bit like a reverse feedback loop where what you hear seems to inform what you sense elsewhere in your body.     

I imagine speakers 'drive' that sensation directly, but the subjective extent of what you can feel triggered by headphones alone continues to surprise ...

I suspect from experiences reported here (and elsewhere) that DAVE direct to speakers must be amazing ... but it continues to astonish me quite how 'physical' headphone listening can "feel".


----------



## iamoneagain (Aug 19, 2020)

Glossator said:


> I am sure that you are, if I can put it like this, not "wrong" re speakers ...
> 
> However, one of the really weird things I have discovered from (practically enforced) headphone only via Focal Utopia (which I understand from what others say is not as well endowed down below as other headphones are) listening to a DAVE [as yet without a DC4!] (and upgraded cable) is that you can in part "feel" base.  There is a sensation of "feeling" the sound rather than just "hearing" it through your ears.    This has been very unexpected - it is a bit like a reverse feedback loop where what you hear seems to inform what you sense elsewhere in your body.
> 
> ...



That feeling was the big jump from using Utopia’s with the Dave vs the Hugo 2. It technically sounded amazing with the Hugo 2 but didn’t move you like it does with the Dave. The Utopia’s with the Dave sound very full and allow you to be immersed in the sound and level of detail from the bass is astounding. Adding the mscaler brings this all to another level.

As far as speakers, I don’t have the space or the money to go in that direction but I’m sure I’d be blown away by a proper setup with a Dave as the dac.


----------



## GreenBow (Aug 19, 2020)

I noticed a few pages back that folk mentioned Naim being problematic. Not exactly sure what or why. Something about keeping kit away from Naim. Or RFI. Or something to do with power.

If there is a problem with Naim and Chord kit, please what is it that needs to be looked out for. I realise there may be a possibility of putting a DAC on top of a Naim might cause a it of hum. Meaning moving the DAC. However what I read a few pages back seemed more serious, although I didn't understand what was being discussed.

I also saw something in the TT2 thread mentioning Naim being susceptible to noise from mains. Or noise from other kit plugged into the same mains supply.

Have come very close to buying a Naim Supernait 3. However I am pinning my decision on when I can get home demo. I will be able to tell if it will slot into my system in all ways. Not just if it's the right detail depth, or tonal balance. Stuff like if I can stack a DAB radio and TT2 on top of it. 

If there's bad news over the amp, then now would be great for me know. Supernait 3 may be here tomorrow.


-----------------------------------------------------------





naynay said:


> Just make your own.Put some cylindrical ferrite cores on a meter length of the Oyaide FTVS-510 5N cable with the same brand Oyaide SLSB BNC connectors and you have it.Took me about half an hour per cable as It was my first time and parts are not to expensive as well.



When you say a few ferrites cores. Doesn't the M-Scaler cable need cores of particular specs. Like e.g. cores that block 2GHz. As well as cores that work for other frequencies.




adrianm said:


> Nah i'm fine with my gaming pc streaming Tidal to Dave



Gaming PC to DAVE. Ha!


----------



## adrianm

GreenBow said:


> Gaming PC to DAVE. Ha!


Not even kidding, the RGB really creates the concert atmosphere LOL.


----------



## adrianm

Glossator said:


> I am sure that you are, if I can put it like this, not "wrong" re speakers ...
> 
> However, one of the really weird things I have discovered from (practically enforced) headphone only via Focal Utopia (which I understand from what others say is not as well endowed down below as other headphones are) listening to a DAVE [as yet without a DC4!] (and upgraded cable) is that you can in part "feel" base.  There is a sensation of "feeling" the sound rather than just "hearing" it through your ears.    This has been very unexpected - it is a bit like a reverse feedback loop where what you hear seems to inform what you sense elsewhere in your body.
> 
> ...


No kidding, listening with Z1R's  the bass is definitely palpable. Not like you could with the TA-ZH1ES, it was a lot boomier,not as deep and worse overall but you could feel the vibrations a lot better on some tracks.


----------



## GreenBow (Aug 19, 2020)

adrianm said:


> Not even kidding, the RGB really creates the concert atmosphere LOL.



Nice. ….. Concert atmosphere. .. Heeheehe.

I game with TT2 or Qutest with an amplifier. Or sometimes TT2 driving speakers.

Have a g-sync too.

Nvidia Ampere video cards out soon.


----------



## sm60

iamoneagain said:


> Well this is a headphone forum. I usually assume when we’re talking about audio equipment here, it’s being talked about with headphones in mind. For me the big appeal of the Dave is that it’s an end game dac with a transparent headphone jack. You don’t have to worry about separate headphone amp, well except for a few headphones.


A couple of comments. The Dave is certainly an outstanding DAC, but as a headphone amplifier, it lacks some important capabilities. I’m using a Sennheiser 800S with balanced mode cables with the Sony TA-ZH1ES headphone amplifier and DAC, which supports balanced mode output. Used in this manner, the Sony is better sounding than the Dave to my ears. Like the Dave, the Sony allows upscaling to DSD 256 etc. No, the Sony does not sound as powerful or transparent as the Dave though my Audio Research Reference preamp and monoblock amplifiers. But through the headphone jack, the Dave does not sound to me as good as the Sony. I suspect the balanced drive mode is the reason. If I wanted to use the Dave to drive a pair of headphones, I would use a better headphone amplifier. For example, a Woo Audio tubed set would be sonically in a much higher class. Obviously, this is a subjective impression and others may be entirely happy with the Dave as a headphone amplifier.

Second, and this may sound a sacrilege in a headphone forum, I have yet to listen to a pair of headphones that can match a state of the art loudspeaker. For example, I use the Quad 2905 electrostatic loudspeaker among others. Even as good as the Sennheiser 800S is, it is simply no   match for the Quads. Of course, you need to have the space and the electronics to drive a large speaker like the 2905s. If I downsized to a small condo in a few years, say in nearby San Francisco, I could see myself being happy with just the Dave and the 800s.


----------



## adrianm

sm60 said:


> A couple of comments. The Dave is certainly an outstanding DAC, but as a headphone amplifier, it lacks some important capabilities. I’m using a Sennheiser 800S with balanced mode cables with the Sony TA-ZH1ES headphone amplifier and DAC, which supports balanced mode output. Used in this manner, the Sony is better sounding than the Dave to my ears. Like the Dave, the Sony allows upscaling to DSD 256 etc. No, the Sony does not sound as powerful or transparent as the Dave though my Audio Research Reference preamp and monoblock amplifiers. But through the headphone jack, the Dave does not sound to me as good as the Sony. I suspect the balanced drive mode is the reason. If I wanted to use the Dave to drive a pair of headphones, I would use a better headphone amplifier. For example, a Woo Audio tubed set would be sonically in a much higher class. Obviously, this is a subjective impression and others may be entirely happy with the Dave as a headphone amplifier.
> 
> Second, and this may sound a sacrilege in a headphone forum, I have yet to listen to a pair of headphones that can match a state of the art loudspeaker. For example, I use the Quad 2905 electrostatic loudspeaker among others. Even as good as the Sennheiser 800S is, it is simply no   match for the Quads. Of course, you need to have the space and the electronics to drive a large speaker like the 2905s. If I downsized to a small condo in a few years, say in nearby San Francisco, I could see myself being happy with just the Dave and the 800s.


That's funny, i returned my Sony TA to Amazon after comparing it to the Dave .With my Z1R the Bass was just overpowering. With Dave everything is a lot more balanced. Hd800s is pretty lacking in bass compared to the Z1R's , maybe that's what makes the TA so enjoyable to you.


----------



## adrianm

sm60 said:


> Even as good as the Sennheiser 800S is, it is simply no match for the Quads


A better comparison would be some Stax 009s


----------



## 03029174

I hate Chord! they very kindly stopped developing Mac drivers for the Qute EX (Qute EX released Jul 14, OSX Capitan released Sept 2015). How they can charge so much and be willing to shaft customers like that means i'll never buy a Chord product again.


----------



## sm60

03029174 said:


> I hate Chord! they very kindly stopped developing Mac drivers for the Qute EX (Qute EX released Jul 14, OSX Capitan released Sept 2015). How they can charge so much and be willing to shaft customers like that means i'll never buy a Chord product again.



Six years is a lifetime in digital audio, not to mention smartphones, iPads and computers. Planned obsolescence is the watchword in today’s software driven tech world. There was a time in the audio world when a company like Quad could continue to produce the same loudspeaker unchanged for 25+ years. This is unheard of in today’s world. Models are phased out in 2-3 year cycles. I’m surprised the Dave is still unchanged over the past 4-5 years. Its replacement can’t be too far away.


----------



## radnor

03029174 said:


> I hate Chord! they very kindly stopped developing Mac drivers for the Qute EX (Qute EX released Jul 14, OSX Capitan released Sept 2015). How they can charge so much and be willing to shaft customers like that means i'll never buy a Chord product again.


what a pity.


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## 03029174

radnor said:


> what a pity.



Says it all bud


----------



## radnor

03029174 said:


> Says it all bud


Come to a chord thread making broad generalizations and complaining about a 7 year old product is not going to win you any empathy. Your better off making a sign and marching... does your iPhone 2 still get iOS updates?


----------



## sm60

adrianm said:


> That's funny, i returned my Sony TA to Amazon after comparing it to the Dave .With my Z1R the Bass was just overpowering. With Dave everything is a lot more balanced. Hd800s is pretty lacking in bass compared to the Z1R's , maybe that's what makes the TA so enjoyable to you.



 I don’t like closed back headphones since I find them too colored sounding for my tastes. I tried an Audeze model, and found it way too heavy, with a vise like grip and just overall opaque sounding. What I love about the Sennheiser 800s is the comfort — they are very light and even if I wear them for an hour or two, they don’t get sticky. The drivers are angled to the ears so they don’t sound overpowering even if you play them loud. They also have an enveloping out of the head effect that I find irresistible. The only snag is a slightly elevated treble, more pronounced in the original 800 model, which has been largely tamed in the newer 800s, which has greatly improved drivers. I can see that if you’re a bass freak, you might not like the 800s. That’s not what they’re about. They’re designed for maximum clarity and transparency. Their design is specifically intended to eliminate the bass bloat that’s all too prevalent in all the closed back phones I’ve heard. But I’ve come to realize that this thumping bass sound is what many people like. Witness how many loud car stereos can be heard a block or two away from the boom boom sound of the subs in the car. And how many folks love to install massive subwoofers in their home stereo. Perhaps my listening tastes are very different. I don’t hear thumping bass in the Davies Symphony hall in San Francisco. Even a bass drum in a concert hall has a very different bass effect than a home theater sub. The bass wave comes across so quickly and it’s gone before your realize it, with no overhang like a garden variety sub.


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## 03029174

Was just making a point this company cut support for a new product after 1yr 3months. The iPhone argument doesn’t make sense and you probably know that deep down, but yes, I’d be pissed if my iPhone stopped working with a new OS after 1yr 3 months.

maybe Chord have been awesome since then, I haven’t bothered to look. but if I make someone do a little extra research about how Chord deal with driver obsolescence, maybe it helps someone, maybe not. Hope you enjoy yours


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## adrianm

sm60 said:


> I don’t hear thumping bass in the Davies Symphony hall in San Francisco.


They clearly need to get a handle on their subwoofer situation, perhaps one under each seat?  I would give the 820 a shot since they're closed and that's my current use case and preference, but i don't consider my Z1Rs (also extremely light and with angled drivers) nowhere near as bassy as people make them out to be. Then again i like the Audeze sound signature as well.
    I get why you want neutral for classical music, but for me a lot of genres benefit from a bit of warmth.Especially older recordings. And people keep acting like "dead neutral" is some holy grail, but later most of them end up adding tube amps to color their neutral dac and headphones.


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## Uncle Monty

radnor said:


> I dated a chick in Morgan hills. I showed her my Dave.
> 
> She liked it.
> 
> All the ladies like Dave.


really hoping DAVE's successor is called the 'JOHNSON' then..


----------



## Amberlamps

03029174 said:


> I hate Chord! they very kindly stopped developing Mac drivers for the Qute EX (Qute EX released Jul 14, OSX Capitan released Sept 2015). How they can charge so much and be willing to shaft customers like that means i'll never buy a Chord product again.



Hi,


----------



## ekfc63 (Aug 19, 2020)

Not really a Dave specific question, but one for Dave users with dedicated music servers.  My Dave/MSc is usually used with success in a headphone only system (see system details below) fed from an iPad running Tidal.   I recently had a session where i moved my Dave/MSc into my usually vinyl fronted two channel system  and the digital front end came up wanting. Nowhere near as dynamic or engaging.  Is the weak link the iPad?  What can be gained from a dedicated server such as an Innuous Zenith MkIII?  Will it give quality sound comparable to my vinyl front end?


----------



## sm60

03029174 said:


> Was just making a point this company cut support for a new product after 1yr 3months. The iPhone argument doesn’t make sense and you probably know that deep down, but yes, I’d be pissed if my iPhone stopped working with a new OS after 1yr 3 months.
> 
> maybe Chord have been awesome since then, I haven’t bothered to look. but if I make someone do a little extra research about how Chord deal with driver obsolescence, maybe it helps someone, maybe not. Hope you enjoy yours



I agree entirely about your point that it’s really strange that Chord does not support software updates. It’s shocking that a company touting its digital DACs for their software prowess won’t allow for updates to add new features or handle OS updates.


----------



## mbj666

GreenBow said:


> I noticed a few pages back that folk mentioned Naim being problematic. Not exactly sure what or why. Something about keeping kit away from Naim. Or RFI. Or something to do with power.
> 
> If there is a problem with Naim and Chord kit, please what is it that needs to be looked out for. I realise there may be a possibility of putting a DAC on top of a Naim might cause a it of hum. Meaning moving the DAC. However what I read a few pages back seemed more serious, although I didn't understand what was being discussed.
> 
> ...



I have a full naim system as do a good few other i know and it matches very well with chord dacs.  So much so I just ordered a dave.  Naim kit is sensitive to power blocks and power cables.  Lots of detail and advice on the naim forum.  Sn3 is a great amp  worth trying a nap250dr though if matching it with chord dave/tt2 as some prefer this I myself preffered dave into my nac282 pre.


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## Ciggavelli (Aug 19, 2020)

ekfc63 said:


> Not really a Dave specific question, but one for Dave users with dedicated music servers.  My Dave/MSc is usually used with success in a headphone only system (see system details below) fed from an iPad running Tidal.   I recently had a session where i moved my Dave/MSc into my usually vinyl fronted two channel system  and the digital front end came up wanting. Nowhere near as dynamic or engaging.  Is the weak link the iPad?  What can be gained from a dedicated server such as an Innuous Zenith MkIII?  Will it give quality sound comparable to my vinyl front end?


Shhh, you’re not allowed to discuss servers and streamers here.  (Joking, but also not joking).

You can increase sound quality with the Zenith MKIII. I have that server and use it as a streamer as well. I then feed the usb out to the Innuos Phoenix. It is better than using my gaming pc or iPhone (which is battery powered like an iPad). I personally think the Phoenix reclocker creates a bigger increase in sound quality than the Zenith Mk3. But, that being said, the Zenith MK3 sounds better to me than my PC or iPhone, so I definitely have been happy with keeping it in my chain.  It’s a little more subtle, but you can definitely tell differences. Maybe you can get a demo if the Phoenix or Zenith MK3 to test at home?


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## GreenBow (Aug 19, 2020)

mbj666 said:


> I have a full naim system as do a good few other i know and it matches very well with chord dacs.  So much so I just ordered a dave.  Naim kit is sensitive to power blocks and power cables.  Lots of detail and advice on the naim forum.  Sn3 is a great amp  worth trying a nap250dr though if matching it with chord dave/tt2 as some prefer this I myself preffered dave into my nac282 pre.



Thank you. I think that gives me an idea.

Am thinking integrated so I can use more than one DAC. (Long story.) Flexibility.

However I literally searched for 'Naim kit is sensitive to power blocks and power cables', as you put it. Then started reading.


----------



## radnor

03029174 said:


> Was just making a point this company cut support for a new product after 1yr 3months. The iPhone argument doesn’t make sense and you probably know that deep down, but yes, I’d be pissed if my iPhone stopped working with a new OS after 1yr 3 months.
> 
> maybe Chord have been awesome since then, I haven’t bothered to look. but if I make someone do a little extra research about how Chord deal with driver obsolescence, maybe it helps someone, maybe not. Hope you enjoy yours


why are you on a DAVE thread posting this nonsense?


----------



## ecwl

ekfc63 said:


> Not really a Dave specific question, but one for Dave users with dedicated music servers.  My Dave/MSc is usually used with success in a headphone only system (see system details below) fed from an iPad running Tidal.   I recently had a session where i moved my Dave/MSc into my usually vinyl fronted two channel system  and the digital front end came up wanting. Nowhere near as dynamic or engaging.  Is the weak link the iPad?  What can be gained from a dedicated server such as an Innuous Zenith MkIII?  Will it give quality sound comparable to my vinyl front end?


I presume you’re running the iPad off battery so you’re not charging while playing music into the M-scaler/DAVE.
I would say the weak link is definitely not the iPad.
I suspect the possibilities are:
1) ground loop noise from M-Scaler to DAVE to preamp to amp (although there really shouldn’t be any significant ones if your iPad is not charging/grounded)
2) you might be clipping your DAVE into the preamp without realizing it because some preamp can only handle 1V or 2V inputs so you need to turn the DAVE to -4dB (2V) or even -10dB (1V) to ensure DAVE is not clipping your preamp (with the M-Scaler in place), assuming you‘re using the unbalanced output of DAVE. If you’re using the balanced, you’ll have to lower the volume even further and then crank it back up using your preamp.
I suspect the problem is #2. But really, there are many possibilities but I simply doubt the problem is your iPad.


----------



## adrianm

Has anyone listen to a Final Audio D8000 Pro with Dave?


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## ekfc63

ecwl said:


> I presume you’re running the iPad off battery so you’re not charging while playing music into the M-scaler/DAVE.
> I would say the weak link is definitely not the iPad.
> I suspect the possibilities are:
> 1) ground loop noise from M-Scaler to DAVE to preamp to amp (although there really shouldn’t be any significant ones if your iPad is not charging/grounded)
> ...



Yes, running off battery.  Theres not something wrong with the sound.  It’s just isn’t close to my turntable. I’ve ordered a Innuos Zenith Mk3.  Let’s see if it helps.


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## sm60 (Aug 20, 2020)

ekfc63 said:


> Yes, running off battery.  Theres not something wrong with the sound.  It’s just isn’t close to my turntable. I’ve ordered a Innuos Zenith Mk3.  Let’s see if it helps.



Personally I decided a long time ago that hoping digital will ever sound like vinyl replay is pretty much a hopeless exercise. I owned two really good turntables including a Basis/SME V and a Technics SP-10 Mk2. I spent a small fortune trying to improve my digital front end (dCS, and then Esoteric). At no point did I feel my digital front end ever approached vinyl replay on the best recorded discs. It’s simply not in the cards. Yes, digital has substantially better noise and distortion performance and unmatched convenience. But like no solid state amplifier will ever sound like a great tube amplifier, no digital front end is ever going to sound like vinyl.

I eventually sold all my vinyl records and players, due to a move from the east coast to the west coast. I do miss vinyl playback. On Roon I frequently play back recordings that I used to own on vinyl. Not once have I felt that the digital remastered version sounded anything like the vinyl version.

I could write volumes on this topic but I’ll choose just one recording. My very first vinyl album was a two disc edition called Beatles Love Songs. The famous Paul McCartney solo Yesterday was my go to track for evaluating midrange accuracy in any component. I have heard every reissue in digital of the Beatles. Nothing comes close to how the vinyl albums sounded. Even the 24 bit remastering they did. Many other classical recordings from Decca and EMI  from the golden age of the 60s and 70s are in the same boat. I recently tried to hear the famous Decca recording of Gilbert and Sullivan’s recording of the Pirates of Penzance with the complete dialogue. I could not bear the harsh digital remastering for more than 5 minutes. The warmth of the original vinyl was gone as was the ambience of the stage. What was left was a sterile flat bright rendition.

I wish you luck in getting to make digital replay to sound as good as vinyl. I tried hard and failed. Now I enjoy digital for what it is, but do miss my vinyl. I’m too old to set up a new vinyl rig not to mention collect all the great albums again!


----------



## ubs28

Since we are talking about streamers, does the quality of the streamer matter if optical is used (as the consensus is that optical is not effected by electrical noise and radio interference)?


----------



## Triode User

ekfc63 said:


> Yes, running off battery.  Theres not something wrong with the sound.  It’s just isn’t close to my turntable. I’ve ordered a Innuos Zenith Mk3.  Let’s see if it helps.



I think you will like the Zenith Mk3 and in which case ask if you can try the Innuos Phoenix reclocker. I had it on demo in my system with a Zenith SE for a month and I really liked it.


----------



## adrianm

ubs28 said:


> Since we are talking about streamers, does the quality of the streamer matter if optical is used (as the consensus is that optical is not effected by electrical noise and radio interference)?


I'm actually curious about any sound benefits there might be via optical myself between,though this streamer business is pretty much dead and burried in my book.
  I know some members here own high end streamers and are happy with Optical HifiBerrys as well, so the difference,if any shouldn't be that big. Not sure why there would be one though.


----------



## audio_1

ekfc63 said:


> Yes, running off battery.  Theres not something wrong with the sound.  It’s just isn’t close to my turntable. I’ve ordered a Innuos Zenith Mk3.  Let’s see if it helps.



Mains power quality is really important. A power conditioner and good power cord transform Dave. The Opto-Dx also completely removes RFI, and also allows separation of the digital and analogue components to remove airborne RFI. Separate power supplies for the digital and analogue parts of the system are necessary if not running on batteries too. I don't think an expensive server is necessary. I use a self built Intel NUC i3 running Roon Rock with Intona 7055B USB isolator. The 7055b provides galvanic and capacitive isolation on the power and data lines. Using Dave's single ended outputs direct to single ended power amps is also important for loudspeaker systems.


----------



## radnor

audio_1 said:


> Mains power quality is really important. A power conditioner and good power cord transform Dave. The Opto-Dx also completely removes RFI, and also allows separation of the digital and analogue components to remove airborne RFI. Separate power supplies for the digital and analogue parts of the system are necessary if not running on batteries too. I don't think an expensive server is necessary. I use a self built Intel NUC i3 running Roon Rock with Intona 7055B USB isolator. The 7055b provides galvanic and capacitive isolation on the power and data lines. Using Dave's single ended outputs direct to single ended power amps is also important for loudspeaker systems.


whats a good power cord for a good price? and conditioner?


----------



## adrianm

radnor said:


> whats a good power cord for a good price? and conditioner?


I'm using the Isotek Sirius with premier power cord for Dave and Initium for the brick itself. I didn't test Dave with and without it but for my old Sony TA it made a drastic difference.


----------



## audio_1 (Aug 21, 2020)

radnor said:


> whats a good power cord for a good price? and conditioner?


I have an Audioquest Niagara 7000 and Hurricane power cords. Other Audioquest models are suppose to be good too. RFI reduction, low impedance and a large diameter earth conductor are important for Power cords imho. Have made some of my own power cords using Oyaide Tunami 5.5 mm2 screened power cable with basic Wattgate connectors.


----------



## ubs28 (Aug 21, 2020)

adrianm said:


> I'm actually curious about any sound benefits there might be via optical myself between,though this streamer business is pretty much dead and burried in my book.
> I know some members here own high end streamers and are happy with Optical HifiBerrys as well, so the difference,if any shouldn't be that big. Not sure why there would be one though.



I will probably test this out later when the Chord 2YU comes out. Then I ask a shop if I can borrow the 2GO + 2YU for the weekend and then test:
1. Samsung 4K TV (DLNA) —> Chord Dave (optical)
2. Chord 2GO + 2YU (DLNA) —> Chord Dave (optical)

And then see if I can hear a difference between both streaming setups. I think there should be no difference via optical, but we shall see by then.


----------



## Hooster

radnor said:


> whats a good power cord for a good price? and conditioner?



Oyaide Tunami is an excellent power cable. You should be able to make your own and therefore make it in exactly the length you need. I make my own power cables and the fact that they are all exactly the correct length makes things a lot neater than having power cables coiled all over the place...


----------



## adrianm

Hooster said:


> Oyaide Tunami is an excellent power cable. You should be able to make your own and therefore make it in exactly the length you need. I make my own power cables and the fact that they are all exactly the correct length makes things a lot neater than having power cables coiled all over the place...


Do you also charge yourself the audiophile tax?


----------



## Hooster

adrianm said:


> Do you also charge yourself the audiophile tax?



Yes, sure do.


----------



## wristmachine

adrianm said:


> Has anyone listen to a Final Audio D8000 Pro with Dave?



I do and the combo is clean as a whistle that stings like a bee 🥃 one of the more formidable synergies out there imo


----------



## naynay

GreenBow said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The cylindrical ferrite cores used in the High priced cables you can buy that are mentioned on here and the MScaler forum use 28.5 mm in Length, 8 mm Internal Diameter, 16 mm Outside Diameter Ferrite Cores and Oyaide FTVS-510 5N cable with the same brand Oyaide SLSB BNC connectors.
Those particular sized Cylindrical Ferrite cores are only available in two types so look at the Graphs on the Data Sheets for each and choose the best suited.


----------



## Triode User

ubs28 said:


> Since we are talking about streamers, does the quality of the streamer matter if optical is used (as the consensus is that optical is not effected by electrical noise and radio interference)?



You are right that optical does break the noise link in that cable but there are other routes for noise to travel if the streamer and dac are plugged into the mains. Also there is a view that optical is not the ultimate connection because of the noise that can be generated by the conversion of the optical signal back to an electrical based digital signal. I understand that Innuos measured the noise in optical circuits compared to a well executed usb circuit and the optical had more noise hence why the top of the range Innuos streamers only have a usb output. As always, listen in your own system and decide for yourself.


----------



## Rob Watts (Aug 23, 2020)

Like all things in life, it's more complicated than that. Sure the raw signal to noise ratio of optical for the data transmission line is poorer than quality USB; but so long as SNR is good enough to maintain bit perfect transmission, this noise is completely irrelevant - and quality optical is bit perfect even at 192 kHz. What is of more relevance from a SQ POV is the amount of RF noise that is injected into the DAC, and here optical wins big time. An optical receiver is simply a diode and an amplifier with digital level outputs; there is no processing at all; USB decoding has by comparison a huge amount of digital processing, and twenty times the power dissipation, plus a separate processor clock. This creates enormous problems from the RF POV for the DAC - you have to isolate this noise and it's almost impossible to do it. Optical on the other hand. as the power consumption is negligible and there is no processing at all - just level shifting and amplification has little influence. Now I have always RF filtered optical receivers (as all functions are individually filtered anyway as a matter of course) but a few years ago I put ferrites on the optical ground - and I didn't notice any change in SQ at all - not like USB which is ultra sensitive.

So to imply that USB is lower total RF noise for the DAC against optical is simply false.

Additionally, optical has the huge benefit of preventing direct source ground currents from flowing into the DAC from the source via the mains.


----------



## TheAttorney

wristmachine said:


> I do and the combo [DS8000 Pro with Dave] is clean as a whistle that stings like a bee 🥃 one of the more formidable synergies out there imo



Based on my earlier comparison of DS8000, HEK V2 and Abyss1266 (prior to TC), and assuming that the Pro is an improvement over its older brother, then I'd estimate the Pro to be the very top headphone to be directly driven by DAVE. (The HEK V2 had already beaten Utopia and LCD4 for my tastes).

But nothing is perfect in every way. The main things stopping me from rushing out for a Pro audition are: Heavier weight, mediocre comfort and smaller soundstage compared to my current HEKse. I'll still have an audition eventually, when it's more convenient to do so.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Aug 24, 2020)

Rob Watts said:


> Like all things in life, it's more complicated than that. Sure the raw signal to noise ratio of optical for the data transmission line is poorer than quality USB; but so long as SNR is good enough to maintain bit perfect transmission, this noise is completely irrelevant - and quality optical is bit perfect even at 192 kHz. What is of more relevance from a SQ POV is the amount of RF noise that is injected into the DAC, and here optical wins big time. An optical receiver is simply a diode and an amplifier with digital level outputs; there is no processing at all; USB decoding has by comparison a huge amount of digital processing, and twenty times the power dissipation, plus a separate processor clock. This creates enormous problems from the RF POV for the DAC - you have to isolate this noise and it's almost impossible to do it. Optical on the other hand. as the power consumption is negligible and there is no processing at all - just level shifting and amplification has little influence. Now I have always RF filtered optical receivers (as all functions are individually filtered anyway as a matter of course) but a few years ago I put ferrites on the optical ground - and I didn't notice any change in SQ at all - not like USB which is ultra sensitive.
> 
> So to imply that USB is lower total RF noise for the DAC against optical is simply false.
> 
> Additionally, optical has the huge benefit of preventing direct source ground currents from flowing into the DAC from the source via the mains.



Hi Rob,
Thanks for the feedback on the benefits of Optical. I found it both interesting and worrying in equal measure. 

What worries me about Optical is where it imparts its own character on the sound. The same is true of course of Copper wire, Silver 'solder' and Silver 'wire and coated wire', plus Paper, Aluminium or Ceramic speaker cones, Silk soft dome, aluminium, beryllium tweeters  etc. They all faintly colour the timbre of instruments and voices according to, lets call it, their 'resonance altered sound'. Material related resonance altered sound cannot be treated but happily RFI can so we are left with the affects of the materials used.

So here's my point:
If I am listening to my system with copper cables I may be listening to RAS but it is in tune with the timbre of Guitar strings and Piano strings for obvious reasons and that's a good start but also fortuitously it is more complimentary to the 'sound box' timbre of Violin, Violas, Cello etc than Silver or Optical cables. This being because, rather luckily, Copper's vice just happens to be closer to the ballpark frequency range of resonant wooden sound boxes. Copper has a more earthy timbre. I think Silver imparts a smoothness that is pleasing in hifi performance and many prefer it to copper but I have found 'too much use of Silver' will move the sound away from true timbre of the above instruments. So a balanced introduction of silver is better for timbre overall imo and that can only be achieved by listening and adjusting with different components but at least we can manage that sound.

Optical cables otoh, to my ears, have an RAS timbre in the lower 'high frequency band' and it sounds 'Glassy' over the whole mix. A lot of digital masterings in the 90's particularly have this embedded in the sound and some (for instance Paul McCartney's cheap CD masterings) are almost unlistenable to me. I have tried a number of optical cables over the years Rob, the best being Lifatec which is an Optical cable used in the medical and audio industry. However, I have never heard an optical cable which doesn't impart a Glassy RAS.

I recognise too that Optical is a favoured choice for audiophiles on grounds of price but personally I would much prefer my flawed solution to be something I can address the problem (RFI) because I am prepared to pay to put it right because the result is more natural in timbre than something which is unnatural which I cannot correct at any price.


----------



## JaZZ

Dave, what is «RAS»?

In terms of the «glassy» timbre of optical cables, I'm speculating that it may represent the pure sound provided by the digital source, given that digital formats still aren't able to reproduce analogue sound perfectly – whereas galvanic cables always carry some fine dirt with them, leading to an «analogue» touch, thus masking some of the still present sterility which has been associated with digital since its start.

Do you really hear differences in the different optical cables? That would be hard to explain, apart from different jitter intensities or patterns (which the DAVE is said to immune to).


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Aug 24, 2020)

Its just something I termed for the post Jazz:  Material related 'Resonance Altered Sound'. I do not know how it works in truth but I know materials alter the timbre of sound in our system.

To answer your question. To my ears Optical cables 'all' produce a 'glassy' veil to the sound.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Aug 24, 2020)

Jazz: " I'm speculating that it may represent the pure sound provided by the digital source "

As I mentioned with 90's digital masterings in particular, this may be the case Jazz on certain recordings. I used McCartney's cheap CD's as an example but if I AB a perceived 'clean' recording (Clean from Glassy sound when listening via copper cables) pitching Optical against Copper I don't hear the glassy effect with copper and its in a frequency region which is easier to discern than say the middle frequencies buried in there with a lot of mass. Given also that my experience has been over the years to hear materials affect timbre, I am more inclined to believe this is the case with Optical. It's like a glazed veil.

EDIT: To clarify, I believe it could be part of the recording (as you suggest Jazz) if optical cables were used in mastering the recording, which I believe was more relevant to digital masterings during the 1990's.


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## Christer (Aug 24, 2020)

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Hi Rob,
> Thanks for the feedback on the benefits of Optical. I found it both interesting and worrying in equal measure.
> 
> What worries me about Optical is where it imparts its own character on the sound. The same is true of course of Copper wire, Silver 'solder' and Silver 'wire and coated wire', plus Paper, Aluminium or Ceramic speaker cones, Silk soft dome, aluminium, beryllium tweeters  etc. They all faintly colour the timbre of instruments and voices according to, lets call it, their 'resonance altered sound'. Material related resonance altered sound cannot be treated but happily RFI can so we are left with the affects of the materials used.
> ...



Very interesting  take on optical versus usb.
And one that I with a much more humble system than yours I can still clearly relate to.
I am fairly new to optical/cd.
But I have played around with dacs via both firewire and usb and coax  for quite a while now.
In my Qutest/Mscaler system both via my electrostatic speakers and my two headphones HEKV2 and HD800 I hear similar problems with optical and the three different cd transports I have tried.
While I have to admit that cd has never before sounded as good to me as via HMS/optical out and I play quite a lot of cds since getting my HMS. Unfortunately I also hear more hardening and glassiness compared to my humble mbp and Pure Music or Audirvana with the same material.
And yes some early cds are still so glassy that not even HMS can cure them. Early 90s DGGs being particularly glassy and unlistenable to me.

And contrary to what Rob claims regarding DSD, in my humble systems at least, even  DSD 64 as native masterfiles from sessions more timbrally true and realistic than the cd layer played via optical too.
And although this is only from memory, it is quite a while since I  auditioned BLU2, but the same applied  even with BLU2. My DSD 64 masters sounded better via mbp and usb than the cd layer of the SACD on BLU2.
Apart from the horrendous price  and  some other problems I experienced with it,one more reason why BLU2  was never on my shopping list.
And now I hear that timbre and tonality of acoustic instruments that I know how they sounded live are not quite as realistic via cd /optical imho as via my humble mbp and usb.
Confusing yes, but I  go by what I hear.
Another example:
This morning once  again as part of my daily morning Yoga routine I played an orginally analogue recorded Yoga Nidra  recording both as cd /optical/HMS, and  also as ripped from the same cd and via usb and my macbook.
Via cd and optical I could just barely hear a tape print-through registering as a print-though, but hazily.
Via usb/mbp/HMS I could hear exactly what the voice is saying.

And various nature sounds like chirping birds and neighing horses in the distance or water gently running down a brook or waves lapping  against a beach ALL sounded more REAL  and less digital and glassy,via usb than cd/optical.
I know both what a piano sounds like live and  neighing horses too, I have both at close range on a daily basis.

Cheers CC


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## iamoneagain (Aug 24, 2020)

I’ve tested my optical vs usb again on my Mac mini and the optical still wins. It’s very close to usb but I feel the music flows better. The bass sounds more natural and mids just a hair richer. This is using the stock usb vs Chord Cable company optical.

I was reading a review on headphone cables and came across where someone was saying they believe our visual perception on the materials used can alter what we think we hear. We see silver as cold and metallic, copper as warmer, and glass/plastic well as glassy/plastic sounding. The silver and copper hold true even for musical instruments. I’m not saying are experiences don’t line up but are perception of sound has a strong influence as well.


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## JaZZ (Aug 24, 2020)

DaveRedRef-III said:


> What worries me about Optical is where it imparts its own character on the sound. The same is true of course of Copper wire, Silver 'solder' and Silver 'wire and coated wire', plus *Paper, Aluminium or Ceramic speaker cones, Silk soft dome, aluminium, beryllium tweeters* etc. They all faintly colour the timbre of instruments and voices according to, lets call it, their 'resonance altered sound'.



Very true! As a former speaker builder I can reproduce this finding. Among the mentioned membrane materials metal/aluminium has the bad reputation of sounding metallic. In my experience it has proven true in the case of tweeters, but with cone woofers and squawkers a steep low-pass filter can reduce the level of the resonances above their intended frequency range to a very acceptable degree, which actually makes them superior to most other membrane materials, including kevlar and fiberglass (even sandwich designs). Especially compared to paper cones the sound is much cleaner and more transparent. However, many people still prefer paper for its warmer, more organic sound. It's hard to find the corresponding qualities – within the intended frequency range – in the measurements, though. In most cases the hinted roughness of paper cones isn't reflected there.

We all hear differently. I never associated copper wires with «earthy» – in fact I would characterize them as slightly glassy, smearing transients at lower frequencies than the typical digital glassiness. (I'm talking of solid-core and litz cables; common braided cables are another case.) Silver sounds sharper to me, but isn't free of glassiness either, it just happens at higher frequencies. I'm surprised that you characterize them as «smooth», although I do hear some sort of smoothness as well. The only wire materials free from glassiness I've experimented with were carbon fibres and resistor wires. The former had a tendency to softness and matteness, the latter to hardness. So pure silver wire has still remained my preferred cable material. Note that I'm speaking of analogue cables! I'm not sure anymore if digital signals are affected by the wire material at all, although my experiments in the past (with younger ears) had led me to believe so.



DaveRedRef-III said:


> As I mentioned with 90's digital masterings in particular, this may be the case Jazz on certain recordings. I used McCartney's cheap CD's as an example but if I AB a perceived 'clean' recording (Clean from Glassy sound when listening via copper cables) pitching Optical against Copper I don't hear the glassy effect with copper and its in a frequency region which is easier to discern than say the middle frequencies buried in there with a lot of mass. Given also that my experience has been over the years to hear materials affect timbre, I am more inclined to believe this is the case with Optical. It's like a glazed veil.
> 
> EDIT: To clarify, I believe it could be part of the recording (as you suggest Jazz) if optical cables were used in mastering the recording, which I believe was more relevant to digital masterings during the 1990's.



We don't even have to draw on the use of optical cables during recording/mastering (which I doubt), the use of less than perfect ADCs would suffice as an explanation for glassiness and digititis.




Christer said:


> Early 90s DGGs being particularly glassy and unlistenable to me.



That's a common complaint and something that has to be accepted. I would say DGG recordings from the beginning of the CD era were even worse in this respect.



> And contrary to what Rob claims regarding DSD, in my humble systems at least, even DSD 64 as native masterfiles from sessions more timbrally true and realistic than the cd layer played via optical too.



I'm inclined to confirm this perception, thinking back to the time when I was into SACDs. However, despite the more natural instrument timbres from SACDs I also found the SACD layer to be less clear and clean than the CD layer – there was an inherent sharpness that has prevented me from being really happy with the supposedly «higher resolution». In fact SACDs (and DSD generally) produce a lot of ultrasonic noise. One of my electrostatic Stax amps couldn't be used with them for this reason, as it sounded heavily distorted.

Now with the M Scaler and DAVE I really enjoy PCM recordings from 44.1 kHz upward. I can't really speak for DSD (no matter what sampling rate), as with its impossibility to use an equalizer with the format I have no use for it, but actually have no real complaints about DSD/PCM conversions (which are largely free from the mentioned ultrasonic noise).


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## Christer

iamoneagain said:


> I’ve testing my optical vs usb again on my Mac mini and the optical still wins. It’s very close to usb but I feel the music flows better. The bass sounds more natural and kids just a hair richer. This is using the stock usb vs Chord Cable company optical.
> 
> I was reading a review on headphone cables and came across where someone was saying they believe are visual perception on the materials used can alter what we think we hear. We see silver as cold and metallic, copper as warmer, and glass/plastic well as glassy/plastic sounding. The silver and copper hold true even for musical instruments. I’m not saying are experiences don’t line up but are perception of sound has a strong influence as well.


Also an interesting take with a psychological angle. 
I am sure expectation bias can not be ruled out in many cases, but  with  my take on this so far optical is so new to me that I had no expectations at all more than: cool I can use my cd players via optical with my HMS.
My first exposure to mscaling was with BLU2/Dave.
And as far as both usb and optical cables are concerned in my case both are the ones supplied with my Chord gear ie nothing fancy shiny ,glassy  or anything such that might seduce the eyes and ears.
And when I say that DSD 64 masters via mbp against cd layer sounded better I was comparing against  what I had heard  live in some cases daily for up to a week at various recording sessions.
But to avoid misunderstandings  regarding DSD64 against  pcm 24/96.
24/96 is more transparent than DSD 64 in my systems. 
I also have a question regarding your macmini. Are you sure that you are bypassing its internal dac via optical?
With an mbp  and optical  out the internal dac can't be bypassed  as far as I know,and I guess the same applies to most cd players as well apart from non dac  cd transports?
I guess that's why my three cd players  all sound different via optical and HMS.
Which macmini do you have?
I am thinking of getting a cheap  second hand mid 2014-2015 or similar macmini to complement or exchange against my oldish 2011 mbp.
Cheers CC


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## DaveRedRef-III

Jazz I agree Silver does sound sharper.

I also have no way of testing whether the 'glassy veil' I hear in Optical cables is down to the cable or the connectors or indeed your suggestion that it is bad digital laid bare. Though as I say I do not hear the same negative effect via copper cables. One thing I have noticed though is that the best of the optical cables I have heard (Lifatec) just so happened to have the most professional and tightly fitting connectors.


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## iamoneagain

So I played around a little more with my setup and found myself preferring the usb connection more. The depth seemed more collapsed with optical and with my Focal headphone some stuff sounded almost like it was coming from behind me. Usb moves the sound forward a bit and also seems to have better imaging.

And now with using Usb, I’m also enjoying HF off with the mscaler. Everything is just a little bit more focused than with it on. Seem to still have weight of the music with it off as well.

Today I wasn’t enjoying my music as much and at first couldn’t figure out why. At some point I accident switched Dave’s input to BNC 4 and wasn’t getting Dual BNC from the mscaler. Believe everything was in mono. Once I switched back, I was amazed at how great everything sounded.


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## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> So I played around a little more with my setup and found myself preferring the usb connection more. The depth seemed more collapsed with optical and with my Focal headphone some stuff sounded almost like it was coming from behind me. Usb moves the sound forward a bit and also seems to have better imaging.
> 
> And now with using Usb, I’m also enjoying HF off with the mscaler. Everything is just a little bit more focused than with it on. Seem to still have weight of the music with it off as well.
> 
> Today I wasn’t enjoying my music as much and at first couldn’t figure out why. At some point I accident switched Dave’s input to BNC 4 and wasn’t getting Dual BNC from the mscaler. Believe everything was in mono. Once I switched back, I was amazed at how great everything sounded.


What's your source? And what crossfeed settings are you using? I've been using Optical for the past week from my pc, might switch back to Usb tomorrow for a change. Crossfeed 3 also makes things sound too far away on most tracks,someone even 2 does.


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## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> What's your source? And what crossfeed settings are you using? I've been using Optical for the past week from my pc, might switch back to Usb tomorrow for a change. Crossfeed 3 also makes things sound too far away on most tracks,someone even 2 does.



I don’t use crossfeed. I did try it again and #1 is best with Focals if had to use it. I feel the highs lose a bit of detail when it’s on but you do get a touch warmer sound with sound move back very slightly.

My source is just a 2014 Mac mini. Got that model because it has 192k optical output and very cheap on eBay. I use it as a roon end point, so very little processing is going on when running. If I were to replace it would probably just be one of the hifiberry kits. Don’t see me spending too much money on source when Rob saying Dave not really affected. I know others claim this is untrue but I’m pretty much done with my setup.


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## Ciggavelli

Ditto on no crossfeed. It narrows the soundstage too much for me when it’s on. I know it is doing that to put the music more “in front” of you, but you really miss out on the endpoints


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## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> I don’t use crossfeed. I did try it again and #1 is best with Focals if had to use it. I feel the highs lose a bit of detail when it’s on but you do get a touch warmer sound with sound move back very slightly.
> 
> My source is just a 2014 Mac mini. Got that model because it has 192k optical output and very cheap on eBay. I use it as a roon end point, so very little processing is going on when running. If I were to replace it would probably just be one of the hifiberry kits. Don’t see me spending too much money on source when Rob saying Dave not really affected. I know others claim this is untrue but I’m pretty much done with my setup.


Yeah i'm on the same page here. Also tested streamers with Dave a bit in the store listening room and came to the same conclusion, but i'm willing to test it more later down the road. Maybe i'm just not listening to enough classical though


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## adrianm

Ciggavelli said:


> Ditto on no crossfeed. It narrows the soundstage too much for me when it’s on. I know it is doing that to put the music more “in front” of you, but you really miss out on the endpoints


With my Z1R i feel it expands the soundstage too much and moves it back too much with 3 , and sometimes even 2, depending on the recording. Sometimes the imaging feels a bit unfocused when going higher than 1, especially with 3.
1 Feels to have no downside so far and feels more natural than 0. With closed backs though.


iamoneagain said:


> I feel the highs lose a bit of detail


Same


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## Glossator

adrianm said:


> With my Z1R i feel it expands the soundstage too much and moves it back too much with 3 , and sometimes even 2, depending on the recording. Sometimes the imaging feels a bit unfocused when going higher than 1, especially with 3.
> 1 Feels to have no downside so far and feels more natural than 0. With closed backs though.
> 
> Same


Maybe it is very headphone specific:  with Utopia, 3 can be almost holographic (particularly, if DAVE is resting on roller blocks)


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## JTbbb

Hello all, has anyone here used or still using a Manley Absolute with their Dave? P’m me if so. Thanks.


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## ekfc63

iamoneagain said:


> I don’t use crossfeed. I did try it again and #1 is best with Focals if had to use it. I feel the highs lose a bit of detail when it’s on but you do get a touch warmer sound with sound move back very slightly.
> 
> My source is just a 2014 Mac mini. Got that model because it has 192k optical output and very cheap on eBay. I use it as a roon end point, so very little processing is going on when running. If I were to replace it would probably just be one of the hifiberry kits. Don’t see me spending too much money on source when Rob saying Dave not really affected. I know others claim this is untrue but I’m pretty much done with my setup.



Currently using Tidal via iPad into MSc/Dave.  I have an Innuos Zenith Mk3 on the way.  Will test out this theory when it arrives next week.


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## iamoneagain

Glossator said:


> Maybe it is very headphone specific:  with Utopia, 3 can be almost holographic (particularly, if DAVE is resting on roller blocks)



I find Utopia holographic without it. I can better locate positioning.


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## sm60

iamoneagain said:


> I find Utopia holographic without it. I can better locate positioning.



I’m going to be probably crucified for this review, but as a newbie owner of the Blu2/Dave/Wave combo (mounted on the old style Chord rack — see pics of my reference system), as much as I am impressed by their sound in DAC mode on my Audio Research Reference  system with Quad 2905 electrostatics,  particularly and only when used with the Wave Storm Reference BNC cables — which improves the sound of this combo by such a ridiculous amount that Chord should simply not sell this combo unless they license the use of this cable as mandatory with their products — I am completely underwhelmed by their sound through my Sennheiser headphones (600 or 800) or in preamp mode. As good as the system sounds in the DAC mode, it is singularly unimpressive to my ears in the preamplifier mode or headphone mode. First, Dave cannot compete at all with a state of the art preamplifier for sheer dynamics or the you-are-there enveloping realism of Audio Research Reference tube preamplifiers and mono block tube amplifiers. That should hardly be surprising to anyone who’s heard what state of the art tube or solid state preamps can do. Similarly the headphone jack in the Dave is hardly going to sound as impressive as a no hands barred dedicated headphone amplifier, like the Woo Audio WA-5 or others of this caliber. So, I’m going to review this combo primarily in the DAC mode. I also don’t care at all for the Blu2 transport. It does not compete at all with state of the art CD transports, like my 40+ pound two box CEC belt drive CD transport, which has jaw dropping dynamics that the Blu2 cannot reach at all. So, with these caveats out of the way, what do I think? These are initial impressions of 2 weeks of intense listening, only a few days for the Wave cables.




 



 



First, some more negatives to get out of the way! I find much to dislike about the Blu2/Dave combo in terms of the sheer unreliability of the combo. They are utterly unsuitable for long term plug and play use. Do not consider owning them  unless you are willing to put up with the repeated hassles of trying to eliminate the persistent distortion in sound caused by either the Blu2 choking on a CD, or the Dave failing to lock in to a signal from the Blu2. As this is a British high end Hi-Fi system, I’m reminded of the joke of the Brit car aficionados on why you need to own two Jaguar sports cars: because one‘s always going to be in the shop!

I’ve owned high end audio systems for 30+ years. For digital audio, I began in 1986 with the original Philips 14-bit CD player (marketed in the US as Magnavox), then slowly crawled my way through the digital food chain through Sony ES, Theta laserdisc digital transport, Mark Levinson 37 transport with the 36 DAC, dCS Verdi transport and Purcell upsampler with the Elgar Plus DAC, Esoteric P3 transport with the D3 DAC, and now the Blu2/Dave combo with the CEC TL0 transport. Goodness, am I a glutton for punishment! One thing hasn’t changed in these 30+ years. High end audio manufacturers cannot make reliable products to save their lives. Each of these systems was exceptional in some way, but the transports in particular were all terrible. I had to send the dCS Verdi back to the U.K. 3 times to get it fixed! The Levinson 37 with its ultra slim drawer used to constantly jam on discs. The Esoteric was far better, until it too started having trouble playing back discs. So, it’s no knock on Chord to note they are following in the distinguished company of dCS and Levinson etc. 

But, with the Wave Storm Reference cables, and when the combo chooses to behave itself, the sound in DAC mode is absolutely world class. I should know since I’ve heard so many first class digital systems. The Blu2/Dave/Wave combo in DAC mode trumps everything else I’ve heard. 

Let’s start with well recorded jazz, a relative rarity if you know your way around jazz recordings. The greatest baritone saxophonist of all time, Gerry Mulligan, was singularly fortunate to have recorded with Telarc towards the end of his long career. His Dream a Little Dream CD has always been one of my go-to discs to evaluate musicality. Mulligan’s deep baritone sound is reproduced beautifully here by Blu2/Dave/Wave, rendered with clarity and warmth. Another exceptional Telarc recording of Mulligan was his collaboration with the sensational Brazilian singer Jane Duboc. The disc is called Paraiso. It features a stunning ensemble of percussion effects and deep bass. Duboc’s singing has that breathless sensuality that leaves Diana Krall far behind.  Mulligan and  Duboc have comforted me through many a long winter night when I was in New England. Through the Blu2/Dave/Wave, the replay reveals many details obscured through lesser devices. Any hint of digital brightness is banished — the Wave elevates the Blu2/Dave to new heights here.

Switching gears to classical music, which is mostly what I do listen to, one of my all time favorite chamber pieces is Mozart’s magnificent Gran Partita for 13 wind instruments. No composer of any genre could write for wind like Mozart. He left everyone in the dust here. My favorite recording is the Teldec one featuring the European Chamber Orchestra. The Blu2/Dave/Wave combo showed the sensational width and depth of this recording and the deep bass and dynamics of the contra bassoon  were beautifully rendered. 

Nothing reveals midrange coloration in a hi fi system than well recorded choral music. Defects have nowhere to hide since we know voices so well. My favorite choral recording is by a very rarely heard composer, Madetoja, whose disc of unaccompanied choral music for the famous Helsinki university chorus is nonpareil. The Blu2/Dave/Wave combo renders the large number of voices spread across a resonant stage with the depth and warmth it needs, while rendering the individual singers’ sibilance  with  clarity.

In short, I highly recommend the Blu2/Dave/Wave triple combo in DAC mode with a state of the art transport like the CEC or others of its caliber, or through the USB port with a Roon streamer. I have ripped all my 800 odd SACDs into DSD files, and they were reproduced well, although I haven’t compared the PCM Plus mode with the DSD+ mode to pass judgement here. Non DSD high Rez sounds fabulous, although I have to sadly admit well recorded redbook CD on the CEC TL0 through the Blu2 M-scaler and Dave sounds even better to my ears. I can’t explain why.

Sadly, I can’t recommend either the Blu2 transport, or the Dave in headphone or preamp mode. The Blu2 transport is an embarrassment. Chord rightly discontinued its manufacture. In preamp or headphone  modes, Dave just cannot compete with what bespoke state of the art headphone amplifiers or preamplifiers can do, nor is that surprising to me. I’ve never known a digital DAC to remotely have the dynamics of a custom tube or solid state preamp. My previous Elgar Plus fared no better when I compared to the previous preamps I used (a Levinson two box 32 or Audio Research Ref 1). 

Again, these are initial impressions, but I don’t think they’ll change over time. Bleeding edge high end audio has always been the same for 30+ years. As the saying goes, what the Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away. You get state of the art performance, at a steep premium in price, but sadly in my experience, not the reliability you hope for. Whether you choose to live with this compromise depends on your pocketbook, your patience and your ability to be a glutton for punishment. Clearly, I have paid dearly for my obsession with high end audio, in more ways than you can imagine. Ah, but the sound you get when it all works. Dead composers and artists brought back to life in your listening room. Magic. 

And now, I hope you’ll excuse me since I need to go back to listening to some more Mulligan. My Blu2/Dave is behaving itself this evening!


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## Glossator

iamoneagain said:


> I find Utopia holographic without it. I can better locate positioning.


Yes, maybe you are right.   Tricky - it is subtle but very different.    Sometimes 3 feels somehow more coherent and relaxed (e.g. listening to a piano).     But, after seeing your post I happened to be listening for the first time to a Calamus recording (Al Alandus) and gave 0 a go and it felt like almost being surrounded by the sound - something lost with 3.


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## iamoneagain

Glossator said:


> Yes, maybe you are right.   Tricky - it is subtle but very different.    Sometimes 3 feels somehow more coherent and relaxed (e.g. listening to a piano).     But, after seeing your post I happened to be listening for the first time to a Calamus recording (Al Alandus) and gave 0 a go and it felt like almost being surrounded by the sound - something lost with 3.



Yes 3 is more relaxed and has sort of fuller sound but everything is slightly diffused.  You lose the precision but also the richness of the mids. With 0 everything starts closer to you but the positioning of instruments is amazing. It’s not trying to recreate the speaker experience as much as feeling directly in the studio or close to the stage.


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## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> Yes 3 is more relaxed and has sort of fuller sound but everything is slightly diffused.  You lose the precision but also the richness of the mids. With 0 everything starts closer to you but the positioning of instruments is amazing. It’s not trying to recreate the speaker experience as much as feeling directly in the studio or close to the stage.


Completely agree, i do feel that 1 is a good compromise though, as it sounds overall more natural without losing much (or any?) focus, i feel the diffusion is a lot more apparent from 2 and up on most songs.On some live recordings i actually prefer 2 to 1 . It's very tricky to decide, been testing for almost a week and so far i've managed to eliminate 0  and 3  from my preferences in most situations.


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## HeeBroG

sm60 said:


> I also don’t care at all for the Blu2 transport. It does not compete at all with state of the art CD transports, like my 40+ pound two box CEC belt drive CD transport, which has jaw dropping dynamics that the Blu2 cannot reach at all.
> 
> Sadly, I can’t recommend either the Blu2 transport, or the Dave in headphone or preamp mode. The Blu2 transport is an embarrassment. Chord rightly discontinued its manufacture.



Hi sm60,

Thanks for sharing your impressions and music.
You should consider changing Blu2 to HMS +/- a top LPS for potentially even better performance seeing as you are not using the transport in Blu2.

G


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## jlbrach

i have the blu2 and although I do not own cd's any longer I found the blu2 to be an outstanding transport


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## Triode User

HeeBroG said:


> Hi sm60,
> Thanks for sharing your impressions and music.
> You should consider changing Blu2 to HMS +/- a top LPS for potentially even better performance seeing as you are not using the transport in Blu2.
> G



That is an interesting suggestion and in fact it is exactly what I did. I was in the euphoric stage of having added the Sean Jacobs DC4 power supply to my Dave and was seriously considering doing the same to my Blu MkII (that share exactly the same power supplies) when I came to a decision and instead sold the Blu MkII and instead bought an Mscaler to which I added a DC4 power supply (and instigated another euphoric audio experience).

And yet I see from your signature that you have a Blu with your Dave despite your advice to sm60?

By the way @sm60 ,despite its humble origins I always found the low noise Blu2 transport to be very good and understand that its demise was not due to quality issues but rather that the supply of the transports used in the Blu2 had dried up. On the other hand I admit that I did not compare it to a CEC transport and indeed that might have changed my mind except that it seems to be in the same cost sphere as a Taiko Extreme which is similarly out of my league and for that very reason I will do my level best not to hear either to avoid having to sell a kidney!


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## Christer

Triode User said:


> That is an interesting suggestion and in fact it is exactly what I did. I was in the euphoric stage of having added the Sean Jacobs DC4 power supply to my Dave and was seriously considering doing the same to my Blu MkII (that share exactly the same power supplies) when I came to a decision and instead sold the Blu MkII and instead bought an Mscaler to which I added a DC4 power supply (and instigated another euphoric audio experience).
> 
> And yet I see from your signature that you have a Blu with your Dave despite your advice to sm60?
> 
> By the way @sm60 ,despite its humble origins I always found the low noise Blu2 transport to be very good and understand that its demise was not due to quality issues but rather that the supply of the transports used in the Blu2 had dried up. On the other hand I admit that I did not compare it to a CEC transport and indeed that might have changed my mind except that it seems to be in the same cost sphere as a Taiko Extreme which is similarly out of my league and for that very reason I will do my level best not to hear either to avoid having to sell a kidney!


Hmm in spite of the  substantial improvement BLU 2 and  Mscaler  bring to rbcd,
I think it still boils down to the simple fact :"You can't get more than a pint out of a pint bottle". 
And to spend ridiculous money on exotic super-expensive cd transports like BLU2 that are  still LIMITED by the format they can play is imho not the way to go if one's goal is the highest fidelity to the orginal source which  in my case almost exclusively is well recorded and musically high content, acoustic music.
In all  high quality systems I have auditioned including my own humble Qutest /HMS hi res sounds more realistic and effortless than rbcd. But I am very happy that I can also  enjoy music via rbcd thanks to my Mscaler.
That was simply NOT the case before Mscaler for me.
Cheers CC


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## Paul Bjernklo (Sep 1, 2020)

Christer said:


> Also an interesting take with a psychological angle.
> I am sure expectation bias can not be ruled out in many cases, but  with  my take on this so far optical is so new to me that I had no expectations at all more than: cool I can use my cd players via optical with my HMS.
> My first exposure to mscaling was with BLU2/Dave.
> And as far as both usb and optical cables are concerned in my case both are the ones supplied with my Chord gear ie nothing fancy shiny ,glassy  or anything such that might seduce the eyes and ears.
> ...



Hi Christer,

I can only advise in terms of cd players (and cd transports) with optical out, and they all bypass the dac.

Yes they will sound very different as with cd players / transports it’s a bit like vinyl rigs that the design (and cost) will make differences where some have better cd reading capabilities, servos, power supplies etc. Hence the optical cable used may have very minor to no affect on the sound but the cd player / transport will affect it significantly. Edit: And I would assume all my cd players / transports play bit perfectly and yet they sound very different, and hence other factors play a part! I would assume the same applies to laptops / servers / daps.

I have tried so many cd players over the years and it it shocking how poor cheap (ie not Oppo and others which sound great) multi format players sound like dvd and blu-ray players.

However proper Cd transports like the Cyrus CD XT Signature Transport that i use sound significantly better than the Fiio daps I have tried (there is simply no comparison) whereas my ok to good other cd player/ blu-ray players mostly sounded worse.

So as a summary the upstream player if a cd player (and likely laptop/ servers/ mac/dap) in my mind will have a significant affect on sound, but the optical cable much less so (even if in my mind optical is better than RCA / USB cables).

So when people say optical sounds the same I am pretty sure they refer the optical cable and not the upstream provider/ player.

If you want to try a great cd transport why not demo the often recommended Audiolab CDT 6000 or Cambridge CXC for around £380 if I remember correctly, as a significant upgrade vs normal cd players, even if great in there time.

PS: I know I reply to only a small part of your questions, but hope it is of some value as I have seen you comment before of differences of sound quality of cd players used.

Paul


----------



## sm60

Triode User said:


> That is an interesting suggestion and in fact it is exactly what I did. I was in the euphoric stage of having added the Sean Jacobs DC4 power supply to my Dave and was seriously considering doing the same to my Blu MkII (that share exactly the same power supplies) when I came to a decision and instead sold the Blu MkII and instead bought an Mscaler to which I added a DC4 power supply (and instigated another euphoric audio experience).
> 
> And yet I see from your signature that you have a Blu with your Dave despite your advice to sm60?
> 
> By the way @sm60 ,despite its humble origins I always found the low noise Blu2 transport to be very good and understand that its demise was not due to quality issues but rather that the supply of the transports used in the Blu2 had dried up. On the other hand I admit that I did not compare it to a CEC transport and indeed that might have changed my mind except that it seems to be in the same cost sphere as a Taiko Extreme which is similarly out of my league and for that very reason I will do my level best not to hear either to avoid having to sell a kidney!



This is not what my Chord dealer told me. I placed an order for a new Dave and Blu2. He refunded me the money I paid for the Blu2, stating that Chord had discontinued its manufacture due to quality control issues. Too many Blu2 units were being returned for repair. He cautioned me to instead get the M-scaler.  Silly me, I got a used Blu2 since I liked its matching design with the Dave. The tacky colored balls in the M-scaler I find a bit repulsive. I suppose you could hide its ugliness somehow. Chord has this weird fetish with freakish color shows, I know not why. Their power amplifiers emit this strange psychedelic light. It serves no functional purpose. To me it screams of poor design. A serious listener like me often listens in the evening with lights out. I want to listen to music, not have a blooming discotheque with colored spheres and psychedelic blue light. I don’t know what Chord is thinking with this shabby bling. It takes away from the seriousness of their designs. 

Getting back to the Blu2, I got mine used, so no warranty I imagine. The M-scaler works fine when the Dave chooses to listen to it, which is not always a given. But the Blu2 transport is so unreliable in disc playback, I resist the temptation to throw it across the room. Christ, I can‘t believe a company cannot design a foolproof CD player in 2021, when we have 40 years of experience. I suppose that’s why the original owner sold it. Still, it is not entirely Chord’s fault. The CD mechanism is the Philips Pro mechanism, and let‘s face it, Philips does not have a sterling reputation for quality. These things are mass produced, a zillion a minute with hardly any quality control. 

Hi Fi was not always such a dicey proposition. I have an original Quad ESL 1957, which was manufactured in 1971. 50 years ago! It works perfectly!! The original Quad ESL has a simple requirement: don’t overload it by an amplifier that puts out more than 20 volts (50 watts into 8 ohms). Stick to this constraint and it lasts forever. Kent McCollum, the best restorer of Quad ESL’s in the US, who restored my 2905s, which unfortunately are much more unreliable than the Quad 57 or 63s, said the 57s just keep on going and going, as long as they are not abused. Peter Walker was often asked if he could improve the design of the 63 or the 57. He said he could, but not without hugely impacting the  production line. It took him 18 years of research from 63-81 to figure out how to make the Quad 63 speaker reliable. No one does that anymore. Products have much shorter life cycles. It’s a throw away culture now.

I decided to listen again to the Dave in preamp mode, this time with a pair of Harbeth Monitor 40.1s, my backup in case my Quad 2905 dies! What I heard with the 2905s I find true with the Harbeth. The air goes out of the sound in preamp mode. Compared to the huge dynamic range through my ARC Ref preamp, the Dave by itself shrinks the soundstage in all dimensions and the sound recedes. It’s a pale shadow of what it sounds in DAC mode through a great preamp. It’s not unlistenable by any means. If that’s all you listened to, you might not notice anything amiss. It’s like the many visitors I’ve hosted in my house who have never heard a high end stereo. Most people, 99% or more of humanity, buy a boom box or get a pair of Bose or something equivalent at Best Buy, stick it in a corner and it’s background music. When they hear a true high end system, they are astonished. They finally understand. Like listening to a world  class symphony orchestra for the first time, it‘s unforgettable.

I still remember my first concert as a graduate PhD student, listening to the Pittsburgh Symphony orchestra in 1986 (!) with Michael Tilson Thomas conducting, and Cho Liang Lin playing the violin in the majestic Sibelius violin concerto. Two minutes into the concert, I was hooked for life. I’d never heard such a ravishing sound. It literally brought goose bumps on me. 35 years later, I still think the concert hall is where you need to be to get the best sound. But it’s hard to attend concerts in great halls for most people. It’s hard to listen to the sheer variety of recorded music live. That’s why I went on this long road of Hi-Fi purchases. I wish the Blu2/Dave were more reliable. But, in the legendary words of our President, “it is what it is”. I’m hoping the M-Scaler in the Blu2 will work reliably. Ditto for the Dave. Fingers crossed!


----------



## HeeBroG

Triode User said:


> That is an interesting suggestion and in fact it is exactly what I did. I was in the euphoric stage of having added the Sean Jacobs DC4 power supply to my Dave and was seriously considering doing the same to my Blu MkII (that share exactly the same power supplies) when I came to a decision and instead sold the Blu MkII and instead bought an Mscaler to which I added a DC4 power supply (and instigated another euphoric audio experience).
> 
> And yet I see from your signature that you have a Blu with your Dave despite your advice to sm60?



I bought it for its M-scaler before HMS was released. As I no longer spin CD's, I actually have listed it for sale and will get HMS instead.

G


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## DaveRedRef-III

Sorry O/T but perhaps relevant to many.

I think this MAT (Metamaterial Absorption Technology) could be quite a big deal for box loudspeaker manufacturers (and listeners). We may finally start to hear the full benefits of box speaker designs more akin to open drivers like electrostatics - without hearing the cabinet. Kef (who are based within a stones throw from Chord Electronics btw) already have an impressive coaxial design Tweeter/Mid system in their range and that unit is as flat as anything out there right now. If they add MAT to their Blade range I might just be a buyer.

KEF to put Metamaterial Absorption Technology into loudspeakers
https://darko.audio/2020/09/kef-tease-metamaterial-absorption-technology/


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## DaveRedRef-III

Jazz
I would be interested to hear your take on the potential for MAT given your background.


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## JaZZ

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Jazz
> I would be interested to hear your take on the potential for MAT given your background.


If it's really what it sounds like, it will be a revolution for loudspeakers, enabling a stunning jump of sound quality. Maybe it's also applicable for closed-back headphones with a similar positive effect.

To be honest: It sounds almost too good to be true: a black hole for sound waves! But if it's only half as good as promised, it will still be a remarkable progress. I will remain skeptical until the first speaker with this new technology confirms its value. It's a pity that I'm not into speakers and speaker building anymore.


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## DaveRedRef-III

To me Jazz it has the potential to 'level the playing field' (if as you say 'it delivers') because if the back of transducers incorporates such a solution with one of the big OEM's selling their transducers with MAT incorporated, 'anyone' potentially could build a speaker of high quality whilst focussing on 'design' purely for aesthetics. We could see some weird and wonderful solutions and also perhaps companies like Chord Electronics entering that sector because the age old box physics R&D lead times would be reduced significantly. No more milling chassis out of a single block of aluminium for $100k speakers. Lets see if it delivers.

Note: Thanks for your thoughts btw


----------



## AndrewOld

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Sorry O/T but perhaps relevant to many.
> 
> I think this MAT (Metamaterial Absorption Technology) could be quite a big deal for box loudspeaker manufacturers (and listeners). We may finally start to hear the full benefits of box speaker designs more akin to open drivers like electrostatics - without hearing the cabinet. Kef (who are based within a stones throw from Chord Electronics btw) already have an impressive coaxial design Tweeter/Mid system in their range and that unit is as flat as anything out there right now. If they add MAT to their Blade range I might just be a buyer.
> 
> ...


As well as speakers there could be interesting applications in room and studio acoustics. Absorption currently requires lots of very thick absorbers, which aren’t always acceptable domestically, if this new technology is less intrusive it could be very useful. I wonder what frequency it works down to.


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## Hooster (Sep 2, 2020)

sm60 said:


> This is not what my Chord dealer told me. I placed an order for a new Dave and Blu2. He refunded me the money I paid for the Blu2, stating that Chord had discontinued its manufacture due to quality control issues. Too many Blu2 units were being returned for repair. He cautioned me to instead get the M-scaler.  Silly me, I got a used Blu2 since I liked its matching design with the Dave. The tacky colored balls in the M-scaler I find a bit repulsive. I suppose you could hide its ugliness somehow. Chord has this weird fetish with freakish color shows, I know not why. Their power amplifiers emit this strange psychedelic light. It serves no functional purpose. To me it screams of poor design. A serious listener like me often listens in the evening with lights out. I want to listen to music, not have a blooming discotheque with colored spheres and psychedelic blue light. I don’t know what Chord is thinking with this shabby bling. It takes away from the seriousness of their designs.



Wow, that, Sir was an awesome post. Thank you for coming to this forum and for sharing your views. I could not agree more with pretty much everything you have said. Chord would benefit vastly for having someone with your taste and knowledge to pull them, kicking and screaming if need be, into the present day. The sooner they address issues you mentioned the better it will be for Chord and Chord buyers.


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## doraymon

I am changing my source to a NUC10i7NFH running as Roon Core and directly feeding my Dave via USB. The NUC will be powered by a linear power supply (HD Plex, 200W) and the Ethernet switch attached to it by an iFi iPower.

I remember having read tons of threads (including ones by Rob Watts himself) discussing the benefits of some kind of USB "filter" (e.g. the Jitterbug) to reduce the noise coming from the mains. Since then however I completely abandoned the topic.
What is the general consensus at the moment?
Shall I get a Jitterbug or similar,  or invest another fortune in a good network player I don't really need?


----------



## adrianm

doraymon said:


> I am changing my source to a NUC10i7NFH running as Roon Core and directly feeding my Dave via USB. The NUC will be powered by a linear power supply (HD Plex, 200W) and the Ethernet switch attached to it by an iFi iPower.
> 
> I remember having read tons of threads (including ones by Rob Watts himself) discussing the benefits of some kind of USB "filter" (e.g. the Jitterbug) to reduce the noise coming from the mains. Since then however I completely abandoned the topic.
> What is the general consensus at the moment?
> Shall I get a Jitterbug or similar,  or invest another fortune in a good network player I don't really need?


I've tested my Jitterbug and can't find any difference. And i've found the source to make such an insignificant difference that i won't bother. 
     I, for one am sticking with pc->optical->Dave. Not sure if i'm even getting the M-scaler, hate the clutter.


----------



## AndrewOld

doraymon said:


> I am changing my source to a NUC10i7NFH running as Roon Core and directly feeding my Dave via USB. The NUC will be powered by a linear power supply (HD Plex, 200W) and the Ethernet switch attached to it by an iFi iPower.
> 
> I remember having read tons of threads (including ones by Rob Watts himself) discussing the benefits of some kind of USB "filter" (e.g. the Jitterbug) to reduce the noise coming from the mains. Since then however I completely abandoned the topic.
> What is the general consensus at the moment?
> Shall I get a Jitterbug or similar,  or invest another fortune in a good network player I don't really need?


It would be silly not to try the Jitterbug first, especially since it is so cheap. Iirc Rob said that if you use a laptop, running it from battery was most beneficial, with a Jitterbug the second best if you couldn’t run from batteries. Seems to me if stuff is so sensitive that there is a good argument for running Roon Core remotely and using as low a power a device as possible, possibly battery-powered, as an endpoint. With such an architecture all the possibly noise inducing heavy processing is kept away from whatever susceptibilities the DAVE has. You could even try that strategy for the price of a CCK if you have an iPhone. Checkout @musickid s posts - he uses an iPod as a Roon endpoint. Battery-powered, no processing, what more (or less) could you want?


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## doraymon

adrianm said:


> I've tested my Jitterbug and can't find any difference. And i've found the source to make such an insignificant difference that i won't bother.
> I, for one am sticking with pc->optical->Dave. Not sure if i'm even getting the M-scaler, hate the clutter.


I was running with a MacBook Pro -> Optical -> Dave, but the macbook died and new ones don't have optical out anymore...
That's why I went for the NUC and I have the option to either plug it directly to the Dave or place it far from it and use a different end point connected to the Dave.



AndrewOld said:


> It would be silly not to try the Jitterbug first, especially since it is so cheap. Iirc Rob said that if you use a laptop, running it from battery was most beneficial, with a Jitterbug the second best if you couldn’t run from batteries. Seems to me if stuff is so sensitive that there is a good argument for running Roon Core remotely and using as low a power a device as possible, possibly battery-powered, as an endpoint. With such an architecture all the possibly noise inducing heavy processing is kept away from whatever susceptibilities the DAVE has. You could even try that strategy for the price of a CCK if you have an iPhone. Checkout @musickid s posts - he uses an iPod as a Roon endpoint. Battery-powered, no processing, what more (or less) could you want?


Yes I have a CCK and an iPad mini I could use as Roon Endpoint. I will give it a try.


----------



## audio_1

doraymon said:


> I am changing my source to a NUC10i7NFH running as Roon Core and directly feeding my Dave via USB. The NUC will be powered by a linear power supply (HD Plex, 200W) and the Ethernet switch attached to it by an iFi iPower.
> 
> I remember having read tons of threads (including ones by Rob Watts himself) discussing the benefits of some kind of USB "filter" (e.g. the Jitterbug) to reduce the noise coming from the mains. Since then however I completely abandoned the topic.
> What is the general consensus at the moment?
> Shall I get a Jitterbug or similar,  or invest another fortune in a good network player I don't really need?



I don't think a Jitterbug will improve the sound. Isolation is the key by preventing ground loops. I use an Intona 7055B USB isolator between my NUC8i3BEH NUC and Blu 2. It provides galvanic and capacitive isolation on the USB data and power lines. It is a great upgrade IMHO. Bass is more resolved, textured and the sound is more musical


----------



## AndrewOld

audio_1 said:


> I don't think a Jitterbug will improve the sound. Isolation is the key by preventing ground loops. I use an Intona 7055B USB isolator between my NUC8i3BEH NUC and Blu 2. It provides galvanic and capacitive isolation on the USB data and power lines. It is a great upgrade IMHO. Bass is more resolved, textured and the sound is more musical



Here‘s the post where Rob says a Jitterbug will improve things with a DAVE, though not as much as running your laptop from battery.




Rob Watts said:


> I have finally gotten round to listen to the AQ jitterbug, as a quest to understand where the RF noise problems from the source was coming from - via the mains or the USB.
> 
> Firstly - very much - YMWV as RF noise is a funny thing and source noise may affect other parts of the system, so the findings here may well be different in other circumstances.
> 
> ...


----------



## adrianm

AndrewOld said:


> Here‘s the post where Rob says a Jitterbug will improve things with a DAVE, though not as much as running your laptop from battery.


I know, i've read it and tested all 3 scenarios myself + optical out of a desktop pc. With my headphones and the Tidal stuff i listened to the Jitterbug made no perceptible difference.The "biggest" difference was Desktop Optical vs Usb. After that Usb + Jitterbug on both pc and laptop...it took me 20 + songs to find one where there was a difference. Soundstage depth improved slightly i guess on the laptop with a battery vs the desktop. But difference was so slight it's not even worth the hassle. One instrument was moved back a few degrees. Everything else was identical. And that was only apparent on one track with very focused a/b testing.
    Now people are going to say Tidal sucks and Qobuz is a lot better but same story a/b testing there. Can't find any of the  stuff i listen to in high res and even then differences aren't always there, when they are (Mostly some live music) it's pretty awesome but the interface is a lot worse and content isn't really enough to make me switch.
    I'm happy to have to come to the conclusion that Dave is pretty much immune (For my setup,music,etc) to source so i'd rather not spend any more time obsessing over small differences from expensive streamers.
    Even if a 3k Innuous makes a 10% difference in sound quality for all tracks (which i very doubt much to be the case after my testing), it's still not worth as much to me as the comfort of using my dedicated media buttons on my mechanical keyboard compared to fussing around with my phone or ipad every time i want to switch a track.
    My advice to  doraymon   is to go for ease of use over Frankenstein setups in an endless search for expensive  incremental upgrades that may or may not be noticeable.


----------



## Muataz

doraymon said:


> I am changing my source to a NUC10i7NFH running as Roon Core and directly feeding my Dave via USB. The NUC will be powered by a linear power supply (HD Plex, 200W) and the Ethernet switch attached to it by an iFi iPower.
> 
> I remember having read tons of threads (including ones by Rob Watts himself) discussing the benefits of some kind of USB "filter" (e.g. the Jitterbug) to reduce the noise coming from the mains. Since then however I completely abandoned the topic.
> What is the general consensus at the moment?
> Shall I get a Jitterbug or similar,  or invest another fortune in a good network player I don't really need?


There are some excellent usb interface but expensive like :

s://shenzhenaudio.com/collections/usb-digital-interface/products/singxer-su-6-xmos-xu208-cpld-femtosecond-clock-usb-digital-interfac

Or get iDefender+ with ipower x.


----------



## AndrewOld

adrianm said:


> My advice to  doraymon   is to go for ease of use over Frankenstein setups in an endless search for expensive  incremental upgrades that may or may not be noticeable.


Couldn’t agree more.


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## AndrewOld (Sep 3, 2020)

Muataz said:


> There are some excellent usb interface but expensive like :
> 
> s://shenzhenaudio.com/collections/usb-digital-interface/products/singxer-su-6-xmos-xu208-cpld-femtosecond-clock-usb-digital-interfac


There’s no reason to suppose that gives any benefit. It is a very fancy USB to s/pdif or AES or HDMI converter none of which is necessary for a DAVE since it has a USB input. What merit could there be in adding an unnecessary conversion stage, especially as it has a lot of redundancy?


----------



## doraymon

adrianm said:


> I know, i've read it and tested all 3 scenarios myself + optical out of a desktop pc. With my headphones and the Tidal stuff i listened to the Jitterbug made no perceptible difference.The "biggest" difference was Desktop Optical vs Usb. After that Usb + Jitterbug on both pc and laptop...it took me 20 + songs to find one where there was a difference. Soundstage depth improved slightly i guess on the laptop with a battery vs the desktop. But difference was so slight it's not even worth the hassle. One instrument was moved back a few degrees. Everything else was identical. And that was only apparent on one track with very focused a/b testing.
> Now people are going to say Tidal sucks and Qobuz is a lot better but same story a/b testing there. Can't find any of the  stuff i listen to in high res and even then differences aren't always there, when they are (Mostly some live music) it's pretty awesome but the interface is a lot worse and content isn't really enough to make me switch.
> I'm happy to have to come to the conclusion that Dave is pretty much immune (For my setup,music,etc) to source so i'd rather not spend any more time obsessing over small differences from expensive streamers.
> Even if a 3k Innuous makes a 10% difference in sound quality for all tracks (which i very doubt much to be the case after my testing), it's still not worth as much to me as the comfort of using my dedicated media buttons on my mechanical keyboard compared to fussing around with my phone or ipad every time i want to switch a track.
> My advice to  doraymon   is to go for ease of use over Frankenstein setups in an endless search for expensive  incremental upgrades that may or may not be noticeable.


I agree on the less is better, so far I had a MacBook via optical.
I will move the NUC to another room and use my main PC as Roon endpoint connected to the Dave via optical (it is already by the way).
Somehow I had not thought about this solution, it’s probably the easiest and will guarantee the best isolation for Dave. Probably better than a battery powered laptop?
Opening another can of worms...


----------



## doraymon

Muataz said:


> There are some excellent usb interface but expensive like :
> 
> s://shenzhenaudio.com/collections/usb-digital-interface/products/singxer-su-6-xmos-xu208-cpld-femtosecond-clock-usb-digital-interfac
> 
> Or get iDefender+ with ipower x.


I tried the Singxer in an older setup with Hugo2 and could not hear any benefits.
Same thing with Sotm sms-200 ultra, tax-USB ultra and again, no benefits with Hugo2 at least that I can remember.
That’s when I decided to sell 5k$ worth of boxes, add another 5k and go for Dave only...


----------



## adrianm

doraymon said:


> That’s when I decided to sell 5k$ worth of boxes, add another 5k and go for Dave only...


Best decision ever  I decided to go for straight for Dave for the same reason more or less. A/B'd Dave vs my Sony TA-ZH1ES (And others). Also A/B's each of them with a Naim Nd555 with external PSU and a Node2i (which sounded worse than my laptop). There was a much more noticeable difference on the Sony than on Dave. And any difference i at least partly attributed to coax on Node vs Usb on the Naim.


----------



## adrianm

Speaking of noisy pc audio, this just came out 40 minutes ago :


----------



## number1sixerfan

My Dave was supposed to be here tomorrow just in time for the long weekend, but got delayed to Tuesday.   

I didn't care much about timing until I remembered the long weekend lol. Oh well, taking a few days off the following week so I'm still really looking forward to spending time with it when it arrives. Will report back when I can.


----------



## doraymon

number1sixerfan said:


> My Dave was supposed to be here tomorrow just in time for the long weekend, but got delayed to Tuesday.
> 
> I didn't care much about timing until I remembered the long weekend lol. Oh well, taking a few days off the following week so I'm still really looking forward to spending time with it when it arrives. Will report back when I can.


It's going to change your audiophile life. Guaranteed.
I feel so privileged I could afford it and I think everyone should be given the opportunity regardless of the wallet.
It should be like love!!


----------



## number1sixerfan

doraymon said:


> It's going to change your audiophile life. Guaranteed.
> I feel so privileged I could afford it and I think everyone should be given the opportunity regardless of the wallet.
> It should be like love!!



You all keep upping the expectations lol, but I believe you. Also, right now I've been buying and keeping a lot because of the lockdown and time at home due to pandemic. Once that's all over I'm definitely off-loading a lot of gear to offset the cost. I'm assuming the Dave will certainly stay.


----------



## sm60

Triode User said:


> That is an interesting suggestion and in fact it is exactly what I did. I was in the euphoric stage of having added the Sean Jacobs DC4 power supply to my Dave and was seriously considering doing the same to my Blu MkII (that share exactly the same power supplies) when I came to a decision and instead sold the Blu MkII and instead bought an Mscaler to which I added a DC4 power supply (and instigated another euphoric audio experience).
> 
> And yet I see from your signature that you have a Blu with your Dave despite your advice to sm60?
> 
> By the way @sm60 ,despite its humble origins I always found the low noise Blu2 transport to be very good and understand that its demise was not due to quality issues but rather that the supply of the transports used in the Blu2 had dried up. On the other hand I admit that I did not compare it to a CEC transport and indeed that might have changed my mind except that it seems to be in the same cost sphere as a Taiko Extreme which is similarly out of my league and for that very reason I will do my level best not to hear either to avoid having to sell a kidney!



‘The CEC TL0 has this rock solid sound with subterranean bass that seems to extend down forever. Listening right now to a wonderful old recording of guitarist Wes Montgomery recorded at the Tsubo cafe in Berkeley. This is a fine 1960s recording remastered and reissued by JVC as part of their 20 bit K2 interface series (marked by a red jacket). Snap these up if you find them. I own a few and each is a music and sonic gem. Another stellar one in this series is the CD by Chet Baker. Like I said, I cannot explain why I find red book CD played back through the M-scaler on the Blu2 through the Dave superior to anything through Roon, high Rez or not. The CEC TL0 has this tactile grip on the sound where it seems to extract every ounce of information from the CD and then some. It’s like listening to a master tape. I bought my CEC TL0 used. Lucked out. They are unobtanium. Jump on one if you find anyone selling them. They don’t make such tank like transports anymore. New, they cost as much as a car. Too pricey for me. But you can find a used TL0 for far less if you are patient.

Through my Intel NUC Roon server and USB interface, I don’t get the same compelling rooted to the earth kind of huge soundstage. Perhaps I need to invest in an Innuos server. I know, bits are bits and all that. But 30 years of listening has taught me that transports make a difference. Why? I remember the first time I heard the old Theta laserdisc CD transport.  It had this huge voluptuous liquid sound. This was in the early 1990s. I was stunned that a CD transport could change the sound! Prior to that, I had been using a run of the mill Sony ES player. The Theta was miles better. Since then, I’ve never skimped on CD transports. Sadly, they don’t last. Some people might question why I listen to CDs. I let you in on a little secret. Optical storage in my book is vastly vastly more reliable a medium than any hard drive ever made. I have CDs I bought 35 years ago in 1985 that work perfectly. Anyone here have a hard drive from the 1980s that still works? Ha, I didn’t think so. Hard drives then were tiny in size and unreliable. 30 years later, hard drives are exponentially larger and even more unreliable. Bought a pile of 16 terabyte drives a few months ago  to set up a RAID server. Guess what? Half the drives have failed within a month. Yes, Seagate sends me free replacements each time they fail, but what a pain to rebuild my RAID each time. Hard drive technology is utterly unreliable. Even the esteemed Library of Congress does not recommend hard drives for archival storage. Guess their drives have been failing too.


----------



## doraymon

adrianm said:


> I've tested my Jitterbug and can't find any difference. And i've found the source to make such an insignificant difference that i won't bother.
> I, for one am sticking with pc->optical->Dave. Not sure if i'm even getting the M-scaler, hate the clutter.


What kind of optical cable are you using, and does it make any difference with Dave?
I always used Sys Concept optical cables in different length and form, never had problems up to 24/192.
Now I read that glass fiber (as opposed to plastic, like the Sys Concept) cables might perform better than plastic because bla bla bla...
Any direct experience on the subject is welcome.


----------



## Christer

sm60 said:


> ‘The CEC TL0 has this rock solid sound with subterranean bass that seems to extend down forever. Listening right now to a wonderful old recording of guitarist Wes Montgomery recorded at the Tsubo cafe in Berkeley. This is a fine 1960s recording remastered and reissued by JVC as part of their 20 bit K2 interface series (marked by a red jacket). Snap these up if you find them. I own a few and each is a music and sonic gem. Another stellar one in this series is the CD by Chet Baker. Like I said, I cannot explain why I find red book CD played back through the M-scaler on the Blu2 through the Dave superior to anything through Roon, high Rez or not. The CEC TL0 has this tactile grip on the sound where it seems to extract every ounce of information from the CD and then some. It’s like listening to a master tape. I bought my CEC TL0 used. Lucked out. They are unobtanium. Jump on one if you find anyone selling them. They don’t make such tank like transports anymore. New, they cost as much as a car. Too pricey for me. But you can find a used TL0 for far less if you are patient.
> 
> Through my Intel NUC Roon server and USB interface, I don’t get the same compelling rooted to the earth kind of huge soundstage. Perhaps I need to invest in an Innuos server. I know, bits are bits and all that. But 30 years of listening has taught me that transports make a difference. Why? I remember the first time I heard the old Theta laserdisc CD transport.  It had this huge voluptuous liquid sound. This was in the early 1990s. I was stunned that a CD transport could change the sound! Prior to that, I had been using a run of the mill Sony ES player. The Theta was miles better. Since then, I’ve never skimped on CD transports. Sadly, they don’t last. Some people might question why I listen to CDs. I let you in on a little secret. Optical storage in my book is vastly vastly more reliable a medium than any hard drive ever made. I have CDs I bought 35 years ago in 1985 that work perfectly. Anyone here have a hard drive from the 1980s that still works? Ha, I didn’t think so. Hard drives then were tiny in size and unreliable. 30 years later, hard drives are exponentially larger and even more unreliable. Bought a pile of 16 terabyte drives a few months ago  to set up a RAID server. Guess what? Half the drives have failed within a month. Yes, Seagate sends me free replacements each time they fail, but what a pain to rebuild my RAID each time. Hard drive technology is utterly unreliable. Even the esteemed Library of Congress does not recommend hard drives for archival storage. Guess their drives have been failing too.


Interesting, and yes hardrives can and do fail.
But since the late 1980s I have not seen ANY classical recording session using either analogue tape or direct to disc recording.
But they sure could sound very good indeed.
Virtually ALL recordings made since the early 90s are made with computers and I can't see or actually hear  how transferring a digital file to a physical disc could or would, in any way improve on what's been stored digitally as ones and zeros on a harddrive?
Safe storage is another subject imho.
When I can clearly hear that  transports sound different and influence the SQ, to me at least it seems that the best way is to play back the digital files directly without the need of a disc and transport for anything except Direct Cut LPs of course.
Convenient  and capable of very good SQ yes, but rbcd discs even Mscaled do not sound as realistic as hi res via my humble Qutest/HMS macbookpro and usb all else equal. 
I personally use a mac because I am a photographer. But all sessions I've been to have used PCs for recording and playback of native masters.
CD transport playback will always be second generation and lower res than the  hi res master.
Nobody records at 16/44.1 since many years.

Cheers CC


----------



## adrianm

doraymon said:


> What kind of optical cable are you using, and does it make any difference with Dave?
> I always used Sys Concept optical cables in different length and form, never had problems up to 24/192.
> Now I read that glass fiber (as opposed to plastic, like the Sys Concept) cables might perform better than plastic because bla bla bla...
> Any direct experience on the subject is welcome.


I'm actually using a cheap Sonorous one because it was the only one in stock and i just wanted to a/b optical and usb on it with my Sony TA-ZH1ES. Optical is definitely better.
After returning the Sony to Amazon i was left with my Mojo as my only Dac untill Dave got delivered. I had been using it only with Usb out of various windows laptops for the past 3 years, and was pretty shocked to find the difference Optical made on it compared to Usb.
   This cable i'm using does drop out when there's a 24/192 signal  but it didn't bother me since i've only used those for my Qobuz trial and decided to stick with Tidal. I am curious to order a higher quality Optical cable but the only improvements claimed are lower signal loss (and i only need 2m) and lower jitter (but supposedly Dave is immune anyway)


----------



## adrianm

This is what QED says to justify 150 euros for an optical cable :
ULTRA LOW JITTER / ULTRA LOW LOSS
QED have calculated that jitter (or distortions caused by timing differences between the different light paths in conventional optical cables) could typically reach up to 145ps. In Reference Optical Quartz, timing errors are virtually eliminated, introducing less distortion, jitter and ultra low loss < 0.03 dB/m. 

And Rob :



Rob Watts said:


> 2. When I add 2 uS (that's 2,000,000 pS of jitter) to the data input from the AP using optical or coax I measure absolutely no change whatsoever. Now that on its own is not enough, as I have had situations before where unmeasurable effects are audible - but not concerning jitter. I have always been able to hear an effect then measure it.



So i wouldn't worry about it with Dave (Probably other dacs as well tbh).


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> This is what QED says to justify 150 euros for an optical cable :
> ULTRA LOW JITTER / ULTRA LOW LOSS
> QED have calculated that jitter (or distortions caused by timing differences between the different light paths in conventional optical cables) could typically reach up to 145ps. In Reference Optical Quartz, timing errors are virtually eliminated, introducing less distortion, jitter and ultra low loss < 0.03 dB/m.
> 
> ...



So based on this, it seems like any cheap optical source would do instead of spending so much money on high-end usb streamer. In other dacs, optical migh not be the best if it can’t handle the jitter. I’m assuming this jitter handling is also true for the mscaler.

I’m back to using my optical cable after a week with usb. It does sound better especially in the bass. Music seems to have more weight and impact than usb. Very slight differences. My only issue is my cable can’t handle 192k, so might spring for a glass one. I had a cheap one in the past that actually worked better but seemed to have lost it.


----------



## sm60

Christer said:


> Interesting, and yes hardrives can and do fail.
> But since the late 1980s I have not seen ANY classical recording session using either analogue tape or direct to disc recording.
> But they sure could sound very good indeed.
> Virtually ALL recordings made since the early 90s are made with computers and I can't see or actually hear  how transferring a digital file to a physical disc could or would, in any way improve on what's been stored digitally as ones and zeros on a harddrive?
> ...



I think you are simplifying the situation somewhat. Virtually every digital storage mechanism, from optical to magnetic tape to spinning disc hard drive to SD card to SSD involves ”storage” and transport”. There’s no way to get bits into a DAC without storage and transport, even if you use WiFi. Given the error prone nature of every storage and transport mechanism, error correction is absolutely vital to ensuring bits are not corrupted during either storage or transport. At the end of the day, long term reliability is everything. In my experience, regardless of convenience, nothing beats optical storage. Nothing. I own no storage media from the mid 1980s that still works except my CDs. The other storage media — 5.25“ floppy disks, Zip disks, SCSI disks, the list is endless — have all disappeared or don’t work. SD cards are so flimsy I don’t  trust them at all. I own about 6000 CDs, including perhaps 800 SACDs, and they’re not going anywhere. I’ve ripped them all, but I don’t trust my hard drive storage media for long term archival storage. I could put in all in the cloud using my Dropbox. Expensive for one. In 10 years, will Dropbox survive? Who knows? I certainly enjoy Roon and Quobuz for high Rez. Will either Roon or Quobuz survive in 10 years? Who knows? These are not highly profitable businesses. The vast majority of humanity, like 99.99%, are perfectly happy with MP3s. High Rez is for geeks. I for one see no alternative but optical media for long term reliable storage of music. Of course, my house could burn down in one of these California fires. I’d have bigger problems then, and my music would be the least  of them!

As for high Rez, I‘m waiting to hear a high Rez recording that sounds better than the best red book cd I have heard through my CEC TL0, upscale through a really good processor like the M-scaler. I certainly enjoy my 800 SACDs. Do any of them sound better than my best red book CDs? Nope. I have over 1000 classical and jazz 24 bit 96khz classical, folk, jazz and rock albums in my Qobuz playlist. I can’t say any of them sounds better than the best red book upscaled CDs. I think high Rez is primarily useful for giving some extra bandwidth during recording, just lie internally a lot of Mac use 64 bit width signal processing for Core Audio. 

Can you actually hear the difference between 24 bit and 16 bit audio? I would argue this is theoretically impossible. Many listening tests have been done and reported in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society journal by Floyd Toole and others. These have not shown significant differences in audio perception. It’s not surprising why. The average moving coil loudspeaker has typically 1-5% harmonic distortion when played around 90dB. In the bass, it’s much worse. Distortion of 10% in the bass frequencies is quite typical. My Quads are a complete exception. The original Quad 63 has less than 0.1% THD above 100 hz up to about 96dB. This is orders of magnitude better than any moving coil loudspeaker. Headphones are no better.

Now, through such a distorted physical medium like a moving coil loudspeaker or headphone, you are trying to argue that you can hear the difference between 16 bit audio (with distortion less than -90dB, or 0.001%, and subjectively lower when properly dithered), and 24 bit   audio   (which  theoretically goes down to -140dB, but no DAC on the planet can truly resolve 24 bit audio regardless of the marketing brochures). I don’t  buy your logic. Of course, subjectively we all want to believe high Rez must sound better. DSD must sound better, right? I haven’t found that to the case in my experience. It’s not surprising why. No analog reproduction medium (preamp, amp, moving coil speaker etc.) exists that comes remotely close to meeting even 16 bit digital bandwidth, forget 24 bit or 32 bit. Analog distortion is 10,000 times worse than 16 bit audio. Compare the measurement of a $100 CD player with the world‘s best headphone or loudspeaker. The CD player  far far less distortion, far higher dynamic range, and much much flatter frequency response. There‘s a reason why Stereophile never publishes distortion measurements of loudspeakers. They are so bad it’s a sick joke. They are incredibly nonlinear. Huge intermodulation distortion. It’s a miracle a voice sounds like a voice when we hear it reproduces, it’s more a tribute to our brain given the total hash loudspeakers make of the input given to them. Feed a square wave through a loudspeaker, and you get gibberish out, except for the rare phase true loudspeaker like the Quads.


----------



## iamoneagain

iamoneagain said:


> So based on this, it seems like any cheap optical source would do instead of spending so much money on high-end usb streamer. In other dacs, optical migh not be the best if it can’t handle the jitter. I’m assuming this jitter handling is also true for the mscaler.
> 
> I’m back to using my optical cable after a week with usb. It does sound better especially in the bass. Music seems to have more weight and impact than usb. Very slight differences. My only issue is my cable can’t handle 192k, so might spring for a glass one. I had a cheap one in the past that actually worked better but seemed to have lost it.



So I found my old optical cable in the garage. It’s an old Radio Shack cable for probably under $10. My other one is a Chord Cable Company for probably close to $100 new. So surprisingly they do sound slightly different. The Radio Shack one is darker with more texture. It sounds better of the two. Possible since expensive one can’t handle 192k, it’s affecting how it sounds with 44k. Kind of shocked I’m hearing any differences.

In past I’ve noticed optical didn’t sounds as smooth on my Mac mini when running roon as the core. When I moved it off to the iMac and made the Mac mini just an end point, it improved. So based on my own observations, it seems even optical sources can sound different. Think I’ll leave it with Radio Shack cable for now and maybe try glass one later.


----------



## alxw0w

*The king is dead, long live the king !*
I knew that at some point I'll move from M Scaler + TT 2 to the Dave. It was inevitable.
How I feel about that ? 
*Resolution and exceptional 3D like imaging* - that's the words that come first to my mind.
I'll write some more impressions in couple of days.


----------



## doraymon

alxw0w said:


> *The king is dead, long live the king !*
> I knew that at some point I'll move from M Scaler + TT 2 to the Dave. It was inevitable.
> How I feel about that ?
> *Resolution and exceptional 3D like imaging* - that's the words that come first to my mind.
> I'll write some more impressions in couple of days.


What is your setup? Headphones? Source?


----------



## alxw0w

doraymon said:


> What is your setup? Headphones? Source?


Battery powered Hifiberry digi+pro (as roon endpoint) via toslink to the Dave. And headphones are Audeze LCD3.


----------



## doraymon

alxw0w said:


> Battery powered Hifiberry digi+pro (as roon endpoint) via toslink to the Dave. And headphones are Audeze LCD3.


Very interesting, I am actually looking for a budget network player with Optical out and Ethernet to connect to my Dave  (the Roon core will sit elsewhere).
This would allow me to avoid using my massive desktop PC as a Roon endpoint.
Using an optical connection to Dave I don't care about mains related noise and I trust that the jitter will be properly handled by the Dave. The only issue I have is the loudness of my big PC. Although it's liquid cooled when the main fan spins fast it is extremely noisy, not compatible with critical listening.

That's why I'd like to consider a small, cheap streamer with Ethernet connection and optical out.


----------



## PhenixS1970

doraymon said:


> Very interesting, I am actually looking for a budget network player with Optical out and Ethernet to connect to my Dave  (the Roon core will sit elsewhere).
> This would allow me to avoid using my massive desktop PC as a Roon endpoint.
> Using an optical connection to Dave I don't care about mains related noise and I trust that the jitter will be properly handled by the Dave. The only issue I have is the loudness of my big PC. Although it's liquid cooled when the main fan spins fast it is extremely noisy, not compatible with critical listening.
> 
> That's why I'd like to consider a small, cheap streamer with Ethernet connection and optical out.



A bluesound node 2i could be an interesting proposition.


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## doraymon

PhenixS1970 said:


> A bluesound node 2i could be an interesting proposition.


LOL!! i was just googling this... it must be a sign...


----------



## adrianm

doraymon said:


> The only issue I have is the loudness of my big PC. Although it's liquid cooled when the main fan spins fast it is extremely noisy, not compatible with critical listening.


What kind of gpu/cpu are you running? i have a 9900k cooled by a Noctua Nh-d15 and an msi trio-x 2080 in a cooler master h500p mesh case (pretty open case) and it's dead quiet when listening to music ,also pretty quiet when gaming.I can hear the bathroom fan across the apartment louder than the pc.
 Using a corsair k70 keyboard with low profile cherry mx and it's also pretty quiet for a mechanical keyboard. Plus the tactile feedback feels a lot nicer when switching  tracks than a touchscreen


----------



## doraymon

adrianm said:


> What kind of gpu/cpu are you running? i have a 9900k cooled by a Noctua Nh-d15 and an msi trio-x 2080 in a cooler master h500p mesh case (pretty open case) and it's dead quiet when listening to music ,also pretty quiet when gaming.I can hear the bathroom fan across the apartment louder than the pc.
> Using a corsair k70 keyboard with low profile cherry mx and it's also pretty quiet for a mechanical keyboard. Plus the tactile feedback feels a lot nicer when switching  tracks than a touchscreen



I'm running a 9600KF cooled by an Asus Rog Strix LC120 an msi RTX2070Super Armor OC graphics card in a NZXT H200 case.
I haven't tried Roon on this computer but when gaming it's a bloody turbofan....


----------



## adrianm

doraymon said:


> I'm running a 9600KF cooled by an Asus Rog Strix LC120 an msi RTX2070Super Armor OC graphics card in a NZXT H200 case.
> I haven't tried Roon on this computer but when gaming it's a bloody turbofan....


You should be able to set up some dead quiet custom fan curves for when you're not gaming without too many issues. Especially since the gpu has the zero frozr technology as well.


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## doraymon

adrianm said:


> You should be able to set up some dead quiet custom fan curves for when you're not gaming without too many issues. Especially since the gpu has the zero frozr technology as well.


Errrr, I wouldn't know how to do that. I guess I have a long google session ahead.
Thanks for the hint though.


----------



## muski

doraymon said:


> Very interesting, I am actually looking for a budget network player with Optical out and Ethernet to connect to my Dave  (the Roon core will sit elsewhere).
> This would allow me to avoid using my massive desktop PC as a Roon endpoint.
> Using an optical connection to Dave I don't care about mains related noise and I trust that the jitter will be properly handled by the Dave. The only issue I have is the loudness of my big PC. Although it's liquid cooled when the main fan spins fast it is extremely noisy, not compatible with critical listening.
> 
> That's why I'd like to consider a small, cheap streamer with Ethernet connection and optical out.


The most budget-friendly would be a Raspberry Pi with a HiFiBerry Digi+ board. It has optical out. And no need to pay extra for a galvanically isolated board. I have a couple that I use this setup with a pair of Devialet Phantoms. Sounds and works great. And no fans. You might find an upgraded power supply can improve sound.

If Raspberry Pi is too IT-DIY, another idea would be to find a used Squeezebox SB3. They have optical out, too. And you get a display! (Amazing how Slimdevices were so ahead of their time). I still have a couple of Transporters that I mean to sell. Absolutely loved them back in the day.

Cheers,
muski


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## adrianm

doraymon said:


> Errrr, I wouldn't know how to do that. I guess I have a long google session ahead.
> Thanks for the hint though.


Np, pm me if you need help


----------



## doraymon

Rob Watts said:


> I have finally gotten round to listen to the AQ jitterbug, as a quest to understand where the RF noise problems from the source was coming from - via the mains or the USB.
> 
> Firstly - very much - YMWV as RF noise is a funny thing and source noise may affect other parts of the system, so the findings here may well be different in other circumstances.
> 
> ...


A change of country, home, computer etc... pushed me to look again into the best possible setup to feed my Dave.
I am running Roon on my main desktop PC (Windows 10) and have the possibility to feed the Dave through either optical or USB.

So, following up from this old post of yours, the question would be:

How does the *Lap-top mains power via OPT* compare with *Lap-top battery power via USB* and *Lap-top mains power via USB with jitter bug?*


----------



## Triode User

doraymon said:


> A change of country, home, computer etc... pushed me to look again into the best possible setup to feed my Dave.
> I am running Roon on my main desktop PC (Windows 10) and have the possibility to feed the Dave through either optical or USB.
> 
> So, following up from this old post of yours, the question would be:
> ...



Your post says 'best possible' set up and yet each of your options mentions lap top. It might be worth trying a dedicated streamer/server . . . . at least if you listen to one then you will have tried it.


----------



## adrianm

doraymon said:


> A change of country, home, computer etc... pushed me to look again into the best possible setup to feed my Dave.
> I am running Roon on my main desktop PC (Windows 10) and have the possibility to feed the Dave through either optical or USB.
> 
> So, following up from this old post of yours, the question would be:
> ...


I'm willing to bet you can't distinguish them in a blind a/b test. And you can throw a Desktop with and without the Jitterbug in for good measure. In all my testing Optical was the way to go (but not by a lot), with the usb laptop on battery and "noisy" desktop usb + jitterbug indistinguishable from each other in careful listening. Maybe the jitterbug made a small difference with the desktop (which is also plugged into the same  mains filter as Dave,not sure if that matters), but 0 differences with the laptop. 
      It's been 3 weeks since then and i'll probably revisit this soon just for fun.


----------



## doraymon

Triode User said:


> Your post says 'best possible' set up and yet each of your options mentions lap top. It might be worth trying a dedicated streamer/server . . . . at least if you listen to one then you will have tried it.


I was indeed expecting this comment to come. Definitely something to try but tough times now, I'm not sure I can afford anything more expensive than a Node 2i...


----------



## doraymon

adrianm said:


> I'm willing to bet you can't distinguish them in a blind a/b test. And you can throw a Desktop with and without the Jitterbug in for good measure. In all my testing Optical was the way to go (but not by a lot), with the usb laptop on battery and "noisy" desktop usb + jitterbug indistinguishable from each other in careful listening. Maybe the jitterbug made a small difference with the desktop (which is also plugged into the same  mains filter as Dave,not sure if that matters), but 0 differences with the laptop.
> It's been 3 weeks since then and i'll probably revisit this soon just for fun.


I did an A/B test with my desktop on mains, OPT vs USB (w/o Jitterbug) but not blind.
The most noticeable difference was that optical felt more immersive (3D), airy (like space between instruments) and bass more snappy. 
Also, on many tracks on USB I felt the need to lower the volume while this never happens with optical. But this could be only due to different gain between the two paths on Dave?
I ordered a jitterbug just to check it out.


----------



## Triode User

doraymon said:


> I was indeed expecting this comment to come. Definitely something to try but tough times now, I'm not sure I can afford anything more expensive than a Node 2i...



I have a Node 2i which I use as a Roon endpoint going into a Qutest. I like the 2i as a streamer but it gets even better with an outboard power supply . . .


----------



## iamoneagain (Sep 7, 2020)

doraymon said:


> I did an A/B test with my desktop on mains, OPT vs USB (w/o Jitterbug) but not blind.
> The most noticeable difference was that optical felt more immersive (3D), airy (like space between instruments) and bass more snappy.
> Also, on many tracks on USB I felt the need to lower the volume while this never happens with optical. But this could be only due to different gain between the two paths on Dave?
> I ordered a jitterbug just to check it out.



This is about same results I get when I compared optical to USB. The weird thing is I heard different results between 2 optical cables. I did further testing and one them changed the soundstage making vocals more prominent. It narrowed the width and had a little more depth. The cheap one kept the same soundstage as the usb but has the airy sound and snappier bass. I preferred the cheap one because it seemed more balanced and soundstage sounded more natural.

I’ve been looking into something else than the Mac mini though. Seeing that with optical the master clock would be the Mac mini, not the Dave. So wouldn’t it make sense to have a device with a better clock? Jitter doesn’t matter with the Dave but wouldn’t the master clock? Also wasn’t sure if something with a coax or bnc would be a good idea? But thought that could bring in RFI. But seeing these raspberry pi based roon endpoint with hifi add on with these options.

What would be a good roon endpoint solution? Looked at Node 2i but it included built in dac, which wouldn’t be using, so why pay extra for that.  But do like idea of easy setup one box solution.


----------



## AndrewOld (Sep 7, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> So wouldn’t it make sense to have a device with a better clock? Jitter doesn’t matter with the Dave but wouldn’t the master clock?



Only if you don’t trust the DAVE to deal with jitter as well as Rob Watts says it does.

If you are looking for a Roon/UPnP endpoint with just USB out the Stack Audio Link II may have some merit. Lots of attention to low noise power supplies, clean USB etc. No disc drives,  no noisy powerful processors.  Seems quite a nice product, and would probably look good with a DAVE, but I haven’t tried it.

https://stackaudio.co.uk/link2/


----------



## iamoneagain (Sep 7, 2020)

AndrewOld said:


> Only if you don’t trust the DAVE to deal with jitter as well as Rob Watts says it does.
> 
> If you are looking for a Roon/UPnP endpoint with just USB out the Stack Audio Link II may have some merit. Lots of attention to low noise power supplies, clean USB etc. No disc drives,  no noisy powerful processors.  Seems quite a nice product, and would probably look good with a DAVE, bit I haven’t tried it.
> 
> https://stackaudio.co.uk/link2/



So does the master clock only effect jitter? If that doesn’t matter, then back to where if using optical, source should’t matter.

I’m open to trying a usb source just worried since optical wins in current situation.


----------



## AndrewOld (Sep 7, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> So does the master clock only effect jitter? If that doesn’t matter, then back to where if using optical, source should’t matter.
> 
> I’m open to trying a usb source just worried since optical wins in current situation.


As I understand it, when the source is optical there is a clock-signal embedded in the data and the receiver has to extract this clock signal and use it, so the source is the master, and the receiver is potentially a victim of any variation in the clock signal. Since in the case of a Mac virtually no thought or care will have been given to the quality of that clock signal, it isn’t a very good place to start. However, there are many ways for the receiver to attempt to cope with whatever uncertainty or jitter there is in the clock - ASRC, PLL, DPLL etc. and Rob has said that all his DACs have enormous tolerance to  such jitter. Hence me saying that it’s only rational to change your source if you don’t trust your DAVE.

USB doesn’t have an embedded clock in the same way as s/pdif, but there may be other issues when the source is connected to mains. Jitterbug isn’t the answer, as according to Rob all current  Chord DACs have adequate filtering/isolation.

If you are an Apple person and have an iPhone then for the cost of a CCK kIt you could try using your iPhone as a battery powered USB source - no mains, no disc drives, very low powered. Not probably a permanent solution but might give you some insights.


----------



## doraymon

AndrewOld said:


> Only if you don’t trust the DAVE to deal with jitter as well as Rob Watts says it does.
> 
> If you are looking for a Roon/UPnP endpoint with just USB out the Stack Audio Link II may have some merit. Lots of attention to low noise power supplies, clean USB etc. No disc drives,  no noisy powerful processors.  Seems quite a nice product, and would probably look good with a DAVE, but I haven’t tried it.
> 
> https://stackaudio.co.uk/link2/


Interesting, it would be good to hear it.
Today though I would not go for a streamer which doesn't give me the option of a toslink out.
I have never found a setup where USB sounded better than optical. In the best case, with a battery powered source they sounded similar.
That's obviously only my experience.


----------



## AndrewOld

doraymon said:


> Interesting, it would be good to hear it.
> Today though I would not go for a streamer which doesn't give me the option of a toslink out.
> I have never found a setup where USB sounded better than optical. In the best case, with a battery powered source they sounded similar.
> That's obviously only my experience.


Maybe you should hang on for the 2Yu/2Go.


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## iamoneagain (Sep 7, 2020)

AndrewOld said:


> As I understand it, when the source is optical there is a clock-signal embedded in the data and the receiver has to extract this clock signal and use it, so the source is the master, and the receiver is potentially a victim of any variation in the clock signal. Since in the case of a Mac virtually no thought or care will have been given to the quality of that clock signal, it isn’t a very good place to start. However, there are many ways for the receiver to attempt to cope with whatever uncertainty or jitter there is in the clock - ASRC, PLL, DPLL etc. and Rob has said that all his DACs have enormous tolerance to  such jitter. Hence me saying that it’s only rational to change your source if you don’t trust your DAVE.
> 
> USB doesn’t have an embedded clock in the same way as s/pdif, but there may be other issues when the source is connected to mains. Jitterbug isn’t the answer, as according to Rob all current  Chord DACs have adequate filtering/isolation.
> 
> If you are an Apple person and have an iPhone then for the cost of a CCK kIt you could try using your iPhone as a battery powered USB source - no mains, no disc drives, very low powered. Not probably a permanent solution but might give you some insights.



When I had the Hugo 2, I used this method for my work setup. But if found optical out of MacBook Pro laptop sounded better when I used it at home. Same improvement with airier sound and better bass compared to usb. That’s why I picked up Mac mini that could do 192k.

So it seems like all these expensive solutions may not be needed since Rob already takes care of these issues inside the Dave itself. Think I’ll keep options open but just stick with Mac mini until it dies.

Think I’ll bring out laptop again just to test another optical source. Even bough can’t do 192k I only have a handful of Qobuz in that format.

I should note I’m actually going thru mscaler first powered by Poweradd. Think whatever applies for the  Dave wold be true for mscaler as well.


----------



## AndrewOld

iamoneagain said:


> When I had the Hugo 2, I used this method for my work setup. But if found optical out of Mac Pro laptop sounded better when I used it at home. Same improvement with airier sound and better bass compared to usb. That’s why I picked up Mac mini that could do 192k.
> 
> So it seems like all these expensive solutions may not be needed since Rob already takes care of these issues inside the Dave itself. Think I’ll keep options open but just stick with Mac mini until it dies.
> 
> ...


I‘m happy enough with USB, though I have a deliberately low-powered netbook/laptop with an SSD that I can run from battery if I’m feeling neurotic. But I also have a Logitech Squeezebox Touch which I’ve tried. It works very well as a Roon endpoint and has optical output to which some thought has been given - separate clocks for 44.1 and 48 k and multiples thereof, and a low-powered processor doing nothing but being an endpoint. You can even run it from batteries. They go for £100 or so second-hand, and you can sell them for what you pay for them, so if you are looking for something to play with you can do a lot worse.


----------



## iamoneagain (Sep 7, 2020)

Just hooked up MacBook Pro and to my surprise it sounds better than the Mac mini. Soundstage opened up a little bit. The other surprise is the usb sounds the same as the optical. So just tells me Mac mini was a bad choice for an endpoint and usb can sound just as good. It may even sound slightly better than optical after more listening. 

So next question would be whether worth it to get dedicated endpoint. I now know there is room for improvement with sources.


----------



## iDesign (Sep 8, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> Just hooked up MacBook Pro and to my surprise it sounds better than the Mac mini. Soundstage opened up a little bit. The other surprise is the usb sounds the same as the optical. So just tells me Mac mini was a bad choice for an endpoint and usb can sound just as good. It may even sound slightly better than optical after more listening.
> 
> So next question would be whether worth it to get dedicated endpoint. I now know there is room for improvement with sources.


If you prefer to run your Mac mini, perhaps Stylus and Uptone’s kit are potential options before going to an expensive server or NUC based solution.
https://uptoneaudio.com/products/mac-mini-dc-conversion-linear-fan-controller-kit-mmk


----------



## iamoneagain (Sep 7, 2020)

iDesign said:


> If you prefer to run your Mac mini, perhaps Stylus and Uptohe’s kit are potential options before going to an expensive server or NUC based solution.
> https://uptoneaudio.com/products/mac-mini-dc-conversion-linear-fan-controller-kit-mmk



I’m only using Mac mini as an endpoint, so only need to replace with a network bridge type item. I have no plans to continue with Mac mini. Looking for better usb endpoint since MacBook Pro was such big improvement.


----------



## iamoneagain (Sep 8, 2020)

So think I’m almost ready to pull trigger on Stack Audio Link II. I like the single box idea, it’s under $1000, looks nice, and focused on just having clean usb out.

My MacBook Pro is so old that battery doesn’t even stay charged. That why surprised it sounds better than Mac mini but I guess that usb output is so noisy that even the Dave is affected.

Not sure what differences I expect from the Link II, but don’t think of MacBook as permanent solution and even if sound quality was the same, I’d still be happy to have a dedicated endpoint.


----------



## AndrewOld

iamoneagain said:


> So think I’m almost ready to pull trigger on Stack Audio Link II. I like the single box idea, it’s under $1000, looks nice, and focused on just having clean usb out.
> 
> My MacBook Pro is so old that battery doesn’t even stay charged. That why surprised it sounds better than Mac mini but I guess that usb output is so noisy that even the Dave is affected.
> 
> Not sure what differences I expect from the Link II, but don’t think of MacBook as permanent solution and even if sound quality was the same, I’d still be happy to have a dedicated endpoint.


Hope it works out - would really appreciate it if you let us know how you get on (If you pull the trigger that is!)


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> I like the single box idea


Single boxes keep adding up


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> Single boxes keep adding up



Well there are some solutions where need optical converter, plus bridge and separate power supplies, now have 4 boxes. Or some that are over $4,000. This one box at least would just replace laptop. So nothing new.


----------



## doraymon

iamoneagain said:


> So think I’m almost ready to pull trigger on Stack Audio Link II. I like the single box idea, it’s under $1000, looks nice, and focused on just having clean usb out.
> 
> My MacBook Pro is so old that battery doesn’t even stay charged. That why surprised it sounds better than Mac mini but I guess that usb output is so noisy that even the Dave is affected.
> 
> Not sure what differences I expect from the Link II, but don’t think of MacBook as permanent solution and even if sound quality was the same, I’d still be happy to have a dedicated endpoint.


No optical out though


----------



## iamoneagain

doraymon said:


> No optical out though



That’s fine. Current setup is proving that usb actually sounds better than optical. It’s good to have options but like that focus is just on usb.


----------



## ekfc63

adrianm said:


> Single boxes keep adding up



Tell me about it.  My two channel speakers are running active which results in 6 boxes just for the amplifier......


----------



## adrianm

ekfc63 said:


> Tell me about it.  My two channel speakers are running active which results in 6 boxes just for the amplifier......


Speaking of, is anyone using Dave with bookshelf speakers like Kef R3's? Curious if it would be worth getting something in the R3 price range + amp (no idea which) to use with Dave or if active speakers (Kef LS50 or BW Duo Formation) would be a better choice since it's less wires and hassle. Would be a system that would barely get used if i were to get it since me and the fiancee both work from home and would share a room so spending more wouldn't be justified.


----------



## AndrewOld

ekfc63 said:


> Tell me about it.  My two channel speakers are running active which results in 6 boxes just for the amplifier......


Time for some active speakers with built in amps! All I have is some ATCs, a DAVE and MScaler and a small laptop. Really simple and neat, no fancy stands, no hefty cables. Sounds pretty good.


----------



## AndrewOld

adrianm said:


> Speaking of, is anyone using Dave with bookshelf speakers like Kef R3's? Curious if it would be worth getting something in the R3 price range + amp (no idea which) to use with Dave or if active speakers (Kef LS50 or BW Duo Formation) would be a better choice since it's less wires and hassle. Would be a system that would barely get used if i were to get it since me and the fiancee both work from home and would share a room so spending more wouldn't be justified.


Definitely go active!


----------



## Paul Bjernklo

AndrewOld said:


> Time for some active speakers with built in amps! All I have is some ATCs, a DAVE and MScaler and a small laptop. Really simple and neat, no fancy stands, no hefty cables. Sounds pretty good.



Which ATCs out of interest?

Thank you.

Paul


----------



## adrianm

AndrewOld said:


> Time for some active speakers with built in amps! All I have is some ATCs, a DAVE and MScaler and a small laptop. Really simple and neat, no fancy stands, no hefty cables. Sounds pretty good.





AndrewOld said:


> Definitely go active!


Don't active speakers all have built in dacs as well? How can you bypass it and use Dave instead? I'm pretty sure you can't do it with BW Formation Duo at least


----------



## Ciggavelli

adrianm said:


> Don't active speakers all have built in dacs as well? How can you bypass it and use Dave instead? I'm pretty sure you can't do it with BW Formation Duo at least


Not all have dacs in them, but most do.  For example, my LS50W have a built in dac, and you can't override it because the speakers use some sort of DSP and because of that, you can't bypass the internal dac.  I was thinking about getting the Acoustic Energy AE1 (https://www.acoustic-energy.co.uk/products/ae1-active/) because it had no dac, but the LS50W appeared to be better speakers, even using the internal dac.  I really like the LS50W by the way.   Great sound


----------



## spotforscott

Ciggavelli said:


> Not all have dacs in them, but most do.  For example, my LS50W have a built in dac, and you can't override it because the speakers use some sort of DSP and because of that, you can't bypass the internal dac.  I was thinking about getting the Acoustic Energy AE1 (https://www.acoustic-energy.co.uk/products/ae1-active/) because it had no dac, but the LS50W appeared to be better speakers, even using the internal dac.  I really like the LS50W by the way.   Great sound



Check out  *Elac Navis ARB-51 Powered Bookshelf Speakers. No DAC inside*


----------



## Ciggavelli

spotforscott said:


> Check out  *Elac Navis ARB-51 Powered Bookshelf Speakers. No DAC inside*


Nice...thanks. I’ll check them out


----------



## MatW

Ciggavelli said:


> Not all have dacs in them, but most do.  For example, my LS50W have a built in dac, and you can't override it because the speakers use some sort of DSP and because of that, you can't bypass the internal dac.  I was thinking about getting the Acoustic Energy AE1 (https://www.acoustic-energy.co.uk/products/ae1-active/) because it had no dac, but the LS50W appeared to be better speakers, even using the internal dac.  I really like the LS50W by the way.   Great sound


I found out about this when I tried to feed my KEF LSX with the SP2000 in DAC mode. Didn't work.  It did work with a Cobalt though, which I thought was strange. I now just use them as Roon endpoints. Sounds good enough for desktop speakers.


----------



## AndrewOld

adrianm said:


> Don't active speakers all have built in dacs as well? How can you bypass it and use Dave instead? I'm pretty sure you can't do it with BW Formation Duo at least


Many decent active speakers don‘t have DACs in them. ATCs don’t,   Neumann‘s give you the choice of with or without a DAC, and a glance at a pro supplier will produce many active speakers without DACs. But it is fair to say that active speakers increasingly have DACs in them so they can do crossovers and DSP digitally.


----------



## AndrewOld (Sep 8, 2020)

Paul Bjernklo said:


> Which ATCs out of interest?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Paul


SCM50ASLT with anniversary amp packs. They are very good. If you haven’t heard your DAVE/TT2/Hugo through a good pair of speakers you may be missing a lot.


----------



## gnomen (Sep 9, 2020)

AndrewOld said:


> SCM50ASLT with anniversary amp packs. They are very good. If you haven’t heard your DAVE/TT2/Hugo through a good pair of speakers you may be missing a lot.


I use the same ATCs and can strongly recommend them.  It's always personal preference of course, but every few years I audition some alternatives and come away pretty satisfied with the ATC 50As I already own.  Others on here have also used the 40As with good results.


----------



## gnomen

iamoneagain said:


> So think I’m almost ready to pull trigger on Stack Audio Link II. I like the single box idea, it’s under $1000, looks nice, and focused on just having clean usb out.


I auditioned the Stack Link back in January (v.1 not 2) and thought it the best value at the price point compared to others I have tried.  As you say, a neat, elegant and well-engineered solution.  In my case I decided to go for the dCS Network Bridge but that was because my network environment really needed more help and, of course, we are talking 3x or 4x the price if you don't really need it.
Do hope you enjoy the Link.  It is a big step up from a laptop.  Tell us what you think once it is bedded in!

Cheers


----------



## AndrewOld

gnomen said:


> I use the same ATCs and can strongly recommend them.  It's always personal preference of course, but every few years I audition some alternatives and come away pretty satisfied with the ATC 50As I already own.  Others on here have also used the 40As with good results.


All ATC speakers are excellent, and share some fundamentally important characteristics. Active ATCs are in a class of their own.  Its just a matter of finding the ones that fit your budget and your room.


----------



## iamoneagain

gnomen said:


> I auditioned the Stack Link back in January (v.1 not 2) and thought it the best value at the price point compared to others I have tried.  As you say, a neat, elegant and well-engineered solution.  In my case I decided to go for the dCS Network Bridge but that was because my network environment really needed more help and, of course, we are talking 3x or 4x the price if you don't really need it.
> Do hope you enjoy the Link.  It is a big step up from a laptop.  Tell us what you think once it is bedded in!
> 
> Cheers



Thanks. I went ahead bought it. Ships out tomorrow but not sure expected delivery date since coming from UK and I’m in San Diego. Sort of like that is was also from UK and had machined aluminum case. Felt like good fit with the Dave.

Just switching from the Mac mini to MacBook Pro into the mscaler is a bigger improvement then I’ve let on. It’s very noticeable in the fact that going back and listening to albums I’ve played in the last week and I can tell the difference. Completely black background, expanded soundstage, and a smooth liquid type of sound. Can’t believe how much I was holding back the sound.  Don’t have the kind of money to go all out on source but I’m a believer in that it makes a difference.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> Thanks. I went ahead bought it. Ships out tomorrow but not sure expected delivery date since coming from UK and I’m in San Diego. Sort of like that is was also from UK and had machined aluminum case. Felt like good fit with the Dave.
> 
> Just switching from the Mac mini to MacBook Pro into the mscaler is a bigger improvement then I’ve let on. It’s very noticeable in the fact that going back and listening to albums I’ve played in the last week and I can tell the difference. Completely black background, expanded soundstage, and a smooth liquid type of sound. Can’t believe how much I was holding back the sound.  Don’t have the kind of money to go all out on source but I’m a believer in that it makes a difference.


Can you share what test tracks you used in your comparison? i've never encountered that big of a difference between sources testing with just Dave so far.


----------



## iamoneagain (Sep 9, 2020)

adrianm said:


> Can you share what test tracks you used in your comparison? i've never encountered that big of a difference between sources testing with just Dave so far.



Big Star - Feel
The Divine Comedy - Queuejumper
Taking Heads - New Feeling - from the Name of of this band is Talking Heads
James - Out to Get You
Tones on Tail - Lions
John Zorn / Masada String Trio - Tahah

The Masada one might be easiest since excellent recording of Jewish style jazz. But pretty much anything I listen to I can tell has more immersive feel to it. More weight. Pulls you into the music more.

I listed just first tracks but I was listening to full albums.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> Big Star - Feel
> The Divine Comedy - Queuejumper
> Taking Heads - New Feeling - from the Name of of this band is Talking Heads
> James - Out to Get You
> ...


Thanks  i'll give them a whirl this weekend


----------



## iamoneagain

iamoneagain said:


> Big Star - Feel
> The Divine Comedy - Queuejumper
> Taking Heads - New Feeling - from the Name of of this band is Talking Heads
> James - Out to Get You
> ...





adrianm said:


> Thanks  i'll give them a whirl this weekend



So my thinking is that Rob probably did a great job in minimizing differences but that Mac mini was just terrible output. I’ll be surprised if hear significant improvement once the Link II arrives. But always when I think I’ve heard my setup at its best, it improves further.


----------



## AndrewOld

iamoneagain said:


> So my thinking is that Rob probably did a great job in minimizing differences but that Mac mini was just terrible output. I’ll be surprised if hear significant improvement once the Link II arrives. But always when I think I’ve heard my setup at its best, it improves further.


You also have the possibility to use the Link II to “clean” the USB output of the Macmini.  Probably not how you want to use the Link II, but might be interesting as an experiment.


----------



## iamoneagain

AndrewOld said:


> You also have the possibility to use the Link II to “clean” the USB output of the Macmini.  Probably not how you want to use the Link II, but might be interesting as an experiment.



Yeah maybe I can try that. I can see what it does to MacBook too. But yeah, idea is to use as direct roon endpoint.


----------



## doraymon

iamoneagain said:


> Thanks. I went ahead bought it. Ships out tomorrow but not sure expected delivery date since coming from UK and I’m in San Diego. Sort of like that is was also from UK and had machined aluminum case. Felt like good fit with the Dave.
> 
> Just switching from the Mac mini to MacBook Pro into the mscaler is a bigger improvement then I’ve let on. It’s very noticeable in the fact that going back and listening to albums I’ve played in the last week and I can tell the difference. Completely black background, expanded soundstage, and a smooth liquid type of sound. Can’t believe how much I was holding back the sound.  Don’t have the kind of money to go all out on source but I’m a believer in that it makes a difference.


Good luck. I am looking at the Lumin U1 Mini, perfect for my desk layout and among the few Roon endpoints to offer both USB and optical out, to satisfy my never ending pursuit of the perfect sound (to my ears...).
Theoretically is well above my budget but I might have found a good offer through a friend.


----------



## Ciggavelli (Sep 9, 2020)

This is gonna make some of you furious, but I’m not the only one who thinks the Innuos Phoenix reclocker helps to improve usb dac performance.

https://audiobacon.net/2020/09/08/innuos-phoenix-usb-reclocker-review/amp/

I use the reclocker in between my server and mDAVE, and I definitely think it brings about very noticeable improvements


----------



## MatW

Can someone please point me to a good post or article on optical vs USB input from a streamer?


----------



## iamoneagain

MatW said:


> Can someone please point me to a good post or article on optical vs USB input from a streamer?



Well with Chord products, Rob claims jitter doesn’t matter, so usually they’d tell you to stay away from optical. USB is reclocked within the Dave and that’s supposed to be a good thing. Issue with USB is the noise and not the jitter with the Dave. So even though I bought a streamer with improved clocking, just think it’s the low noise that will matter. Rob already pointed out in past that it all gets reclocked within Dave anyway

Here’s a link to measurements done on other dacs:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...battle-of-s-pdif-vs-usb-which-is-better.1943/


----------



## sm60

MatW said:


> Can someone please point me to a good post or article on optical vs USB input from a streamer?


I’m surprised by the play optical outputs and inputs are getting here. It was well known 25 years or so back (read old stereophile or TAS reviews) that on CD transports, optical outputs were distinctly inferior to say AES-EBU balanced or BNC. When it comes to streamers, it’s no contest. You cannot pass a DSD bitstream or high bit  rate PCM easily through optical, which usually maxes out at 96khz or with luck 192khz. Optical has some advantages in terms of noise insulation, but Stereophile editor John Atkinson noted at least two decades ago that the sound changed if he moved the cable or bent it even slightly. It was never intended for high bit rate transmission.


----------



## adrianm

Ciggavelli said:


> This is gonna make some of you furious, but I’m not the only one who thinks the Innuos Phoenix reclocker helps to improve usb dac performance.
> 
> https://audiobacon.net/2020/09/08/innuos-phoenix-usb-reclocker-review/amp/
> 
> I use the reclocker in between my server and mDAVE, and I definitely think it brings about very noticeable improvements


That Audiobacon guy just might be the dumbest person in this hobby. Why anyone would take his advice is beyond me. Especially over Rob's.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> That Audiobacon guy just might be the dumbest person in this hobby. Why anyone would take his advice is beyond me. Especially over Rob's.



Hmmn, well, one reason might be that for whatever reason the Innuos Phoenix works and does improve sound quality. And yes, I am fully aware of the possibility that an extra bit of kit in the line is just introducing noise which alters the sound but is mistaken for better sound quality. The Phoenix is not that.

I tried the Phoenix when I had an Innuos Zenith SE and I was stunned by the improvement going both into solo Dave and also to Mscaler Dave. I would have bought the Phoenix but selling my Blu2 and the Zenith SE enabled me to get a Statement which of course already incorporates the Phoenix circuits and more.

Rob gives good advice based on his huge knowledge and experience, advice which I generally follow but even so, sometimes a few things work when he thinks they ought not to. I am not sure it is the reclocking that makes the difference with the Phoenix, it might be something else going on but have a listen to one, you might be surprised.


----------



## midicun

doraymon said:


> Good luck. I am looking at the Lumin U1 Mini, perfect for my desk layout and among the few Roon endpoints to offer both USB and optical out, to satisfy my never ending pursuit of the perfect sound (to my ears...).
> Theoretically is well above my budget but I might have found a good offer through a friend.


My setup is similar U1 Mini -> MScaler -> DAVE -> Utopia and have been happy with the U1 Mini so far (18 months). But have not compared it to any other sources outside of a MacBook.


----------



## MatW

sm60 said:


> I’m surprised by the play optical outputs and inputs are getting here. It was well known 25 years or so back (read old stereophile or TAS reviews) that on CD transports, optical outputs were distinctly inferior to say AES-EBU balanced or BNC. When it comes to streamers, it’s no contest. You cannot pass a DSD bitstream or high bit  rate PCM easily through optical, which usually maxes out at 96khz or with luck 192khz. Optical has some advantages in terms of noise insulation, but Stereophile editor John Atkinson noted at least two decades ago that the sound changed if he moved the cable or bent it even slightly. It was never intended for high bit rate transmission.


Thanks for this. I am fairly new to the hobby so still learning. In my case I would be streaming max 192 khz as I only use Qobuz and Tidal, no PCM or DSD files, so I guess optical could do the job, from that perspective?


----------



## adrianm

MatW said:


> Thanks for this. I am fairly new to the hobby so still learning. In my case I would be streaming max 192 khz as I only use Qobuz and Tidal, no PCM or DSD files, so I guess optical could do the job, from that perspective?


yeah,same here,which is why i'm sticking with optical


----------



## doraymon

midicun said:


> My setup is similar U1 Mini -> MScaler -> DAVE -> Utopia and have been happy with the U1 Mini so far (18 months). But have not compared it to any other sources outside of a MacBook.


Well the M-scaler it's a big difference! But happy to see I am not the only one using the U1 Mini, on the paper it should provide a quality flow of bits to the DAVE, for sure less noisy than my PC!!
And the USB/OPT output option will give me many hours of entertainment with A/B testing...


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> So my thinking is that Rob probably did a great job in minimizing differences but that Mac mini was just terrible output. I’ll be surprised if hear significant improvement once the Link II arrives. But always when I think I’ve heard my setup at its best, it improves further.


Idk man i gave them a listen from my "terrible noisy gaming desktop" via optical (best solution as is the consensus) vs usb (worst) with and without Jitterbug and i can't find any notable differences between the 3. I'm starting to think even using optical via usb is mostly placebo/peace of mind. With my old Sony TA i could hear slight differences even in the usb cables,not to mention mains filtering. Not at all with Dave.
  Maybe your Utopias are more revealing than my Z1R's, though from what i've read differences shouldn't be cataclysmic. For me there's no point in revisiting this source nonsense without 20k speakers like some of the people pushing source components here have or until i get either some new closed back flag ships come around.
   And even then i'm not convinced there will be much of a difference. It's easy to convince yourself of things, especially reading over and over what "improvements " you SHOULD be hearing. 
   Especially if you listen to whole albums at a time. I like to cut down tracks into small passages and a/b those.


----------



## AndrewOld (Sep 10, 2020)

Ciggavelli said:


> This is gonna make some of you furious, but I’m not the only one who thinks the Innuos Phoenix reclocker helps to improve usb dac performance.
> 
> https://audiobacon.net/2020/09/08/innuos-phoenix-usb-reclocker-review/amp/
> 
> I use the reclocker in between my server and mDAVE, and I definitely think it brings about very noticeable improvements


How can you reclock asynchronous USB? There is no clock embedded in the data, so there is nothing to reclock. The clock is in the receiver. The asynchronous protocol means that the sender adjusts the packet size to suit the receiver.


----------



## adrianm

AndrewOld said:


> How can you reclock asynchronous USB? There is no clock embedded in the data, so there is nothing to reclock. The clock is in the receiver. The asynchronous protocol means that the sender adjusts the packet size to suit the receiver.


Such things are conveniently overlooked in favor of audio companies marketing and a desire for continuous improvement.


----------



## iamoneagain (Sep 10, 2020)

adrianm said:


> Idk man i gave them a listen from my "terrible noisy gaming desktop" via optical (best solution as is the consensus) vs usb (worst) with and without Jitterbug and i can't find any notable differences between the 3. I'm starting to think even using optical via usb is mostly placebo/peace of mind. With my old Sony TA i could hear slight differences even in the usb cables,not to mention mains filtering. Not at all with Dave.
> Maybe your Utopias are more revealing than my Z1R's, though from what i've read differences shouldn't be cataclysmic. For me there's no point in revisiting this source nonsense without 20k speakers like some of the people pushing source components here have or until i get either some new closed back flag ships come around.
> And even then i'm not convinced there will be much of a difference. It's easy to convince yourself of things, especially reading over and over what "improvements " you SHOULD be hearing.
> Especially if you listen to whole albums at a time. I like to cut down tracks into small passages and a/b those.



Its possible that you’d need something like the Utopia’s to here the differences or be running thru mscaler first. I’ve heard differences between usb and optical on same source, differences between sources, and differences between optical cables. And in the past differences between usb cables. I agreed with Rob that expensive usb cables sounded worse than the stock. Brighter with less weight.

The Utopia’s the have such laser sharp soundstage positioning, it’s easy to hear the difference. Also, the bass is dead neutral so if that’s not done right it won’t have enough weight. That was the big issue I was having with the dirty usb from the Mac mini. But even the optical from it was a step down from the usb of the MacBook Pro.

My Stack Audio Link II should be here next Monday. I’ll try to test out usb features vs using the unit directly. Probably a quick test since I really want to just set it up and enjoy the music. The MacBook is already giving me trouble where when start playing and signal not locked and have stop and start. And at one point usb output wasn’t working and played thru internal speaker. I had to restart it. Not ideal.


----------



## doraymon

@Rob Watts come on, when is the new network bridge with upscaling function for DAVE coming???


----------



## iamoneagain (Sep 10, 2020)

doraymon said:


> @Rob Watts come on, when is the new network bridge with upscaling function for DAVE coming???



I think Chord was trying to have us use the 2go / 2yu combo for streaming. Rob doesn’t work on these projects so that why I don’t look to Chord for a streaming solution.

Just looked and the 2yu hasn’t even been released yet. Says Oct 1st. And the cost for both is $1900. I guess once released people can compare to similar products in that price range.


----------



## AndrewOld

iamoneagain said:


> I think Chord was trying to have us use the 2go / 2yu combo for streaming. Rob doesn’t work on these projects so that why I don’t look to Chord for a streaming solution.
> 
> Just looked and the 2yu hasn’t even been released yet. Says Oct 1st. And the cost for both is $1900. I guess once released people can compare to similar products in that price range.


$1900 for a 2.4GHz only device on Oct 1st 2020? Wi-Fi has moved on a lot .. we are now in the era of Wi-Fi 6.


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> How can you reclock asynchronous USB? There is no clock embedded in the data, so there is nothing to reclock. The clock is in the receiver. The asynchronous protocol means that the sender adjusts the packet size to suit the receiver.





adrianm said:


> Such things are conveniently overlooked in favor of audio companies marketing and a desire for continuous improvement.



Just on this, I asked Nuno at Innuos to explain the Phoenix and this is what he said to me,

"_The clock that's relevant for the asynchronous USB Audio protocol (emphasis on USB Audio) is related to the clock of the audio signal (PCM). This means the server itself when transmitting the audio does not have to use the internal (crappy) clock on the motherboard on the PCM stream so the DAC can decode it properly. 

The PhoenixUSB reclocks the USB transmission packets (note just USB not USB Audio). It is totally unrelated to audio - this is the clock that establishes the transmission of USB data packets and has nothing to do with the Asynchronous USB Audio protocol. One thing that gives it away is the fact the PhoenixUSB works with any USB device - you can connect a hard drive or a USB stick to it if you like and that would work. It does not touch the audio signal at all, for the PhoenixUSB they're all just packets being transmitted to a destination.

The difference that a PhoenixUSB is doing is simply not polluting the DAC with noise and provide a very well timed signal with very low phase noise. It enables the DAC to work at its best._"


----------



## iamoneagain

AndrewOld said:


> $1900 for a 2.4GHz only device on Oct 1st 2020? Wi-Fi has moved on a lot .. we are now in the era of Wi-Fi 6.



The other issue is see a lot of complaints about the software on the 2go and the poly. Think the appeal is more how the attach directly to the Hugo 2 or Mogo. With the Dave, no reason to use unless really want to keep with Chord. But as said, Rob has nothing to do with these devices.


----------



## midicun

doraymon said:


> Well the M-scaler it's a big difference! But happy to see I am not the only one using the U1 Mini, on the paper it should provide a quality flow of bits to the DAVE, for sure less noisy than my PC!!
> And the USB/OPT output option will give me many hours of entertainment with A/B testing...


I only added the MScaler couple of months back. So, even with the U1 Mini directly connected into the DAVE, it made a difference. I only use USB. I am curious to know your findings on USB vs OPT. By the way, it has 2 USB ports but only 1 is a USB output, the other is to connect a USB drive (storage for Music if needed).


----------



## midicun

doraymon said:


> Well the M-scaler it's a big difference! But happy to see I am not the only one using the U1 Mini, on the paper it should provide a quality flow of bits to the DAVE, for sure less noisy than my PC!!
> And the USB/OPT output option will give me many hours of entertainment with A/B testing...


To be precise on my previous response, here is the link on ROON Community and the post I had found a few months back.


https://community.roonlabs.com/t/question-on-u1-and-u1-mini/96203/13
Only one USB *output* is active despite the presence of two USB ports.
The AES / BNC / RCA / toslink outputs are all active if there is no USB connection to a DAC. You may turn them off individually.
If a USB DAC is connected, all the other *outputs* are invalid or off.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> The Utopia’s the have such laser sharp soundstage positioning, it’s easy to hear the difference. Also, the bass is dead neutral so if that’s not done right it won’t have enough weight.


Haven't heard them yet, my Z1R have better imaging than the Stellias which i have a/b'd against, but they're still closed backs. And bass is thunderous out of pretty much anything, arguably too much of it. This is one of the things i loved about Dave, it made the bass a lot leaner,tighter and more controlled. 
   I might revisit these findings with the next pair of headphones but there's nothing on the horizon at the moment.


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> Haven't heard them yet, my Z1R have better imaging than the Stellias which i have a/b'd against, but they're still closed backs. And bass is thunderous out of pretty much anything, arguably too much of it. This is one of the things i loved about Dave, it made the bass a lot leaner,tighter and more controlled.
> I might revisit these findings with the next pair of headphones but there's nothing on the horizon at the moment.



It’s also possible on your sources, the differences are more subtle. I’m currently leaning in the direction you don’t need a great source, just not a crapty one for the Dave or mscaler. Rob tests with his laptop but I believe only when it’s running off battery. I’d test battery vs plugged in on my MacBook Pro if it weren’t for the fact the battery can’t hold a charge anymore and dies when unplugged.

At this point, my current setup sounds right. I’m truly not trying to improve the sound anymore. The new streamer is just to replace outdated laptop and have something stable.  Over last few days I’ve been enjoying my music more than ever.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> _The difference that a PhoenixUSB is doing is simply not polluting the DAC with noise and provide a very well timed signal with very low phase noise. It enables the DAC to work at its best._"


But why does timing when the dac (all dacs pretty much) do their own reclocking anyway). Even if the Phoenix did something that actually improves the sound, the pricing is ridiculous. You can get a pair of B&W Formation Duo's as an all in one system (which i'm considering for my next place where i won't have any shared walls) for more or less the same money.



iamoneagain said:


> It’s also possible on your sources, the differences are more subtle. I’m currently leaning in the direction you don’t need a great source, just not a ***ty one for the Dave or mscaler. Rob tests with his laptop but I believe only when it’s running off battery. I’d test battery vs plugged in on my MacBook Pro if it weren’t for the fact the battery can’t hold a charge anymore and dies when unplugged.
> 
> At this point, my current setup sounds right. I’m truly not trying to improve the sound anymore. The new streamer is just to replace outdated laptop and have something stable.  Over last few days I’ve been enjoying my music more than ever.



Well i also tested with my dell xps 13 and my macbook pro 16 with the same results. My pc is plugged into the same mains filter as Dave but i doubt that has any influence on the matter. In the beginning i did slightly prefer optical even to the macbook pro off battery. I have nothing against streamers if you need a streamer, i just remain unconvinced of the sound quality benefits (which isn't even the focal point of their advertising). Especially over optical out of pretty much anything.


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> But why does timing when the dac (all dacs pretty much) do their own reclocking anyway). Even if the Phoenix did something that actually improves the sound, the pricing is ridiculous. You can get a pair of B&W Formation Duo's as an all in one system (which i'm considering for my next place where i won't have any shared walls) for more or less the same money.
> 
> 
> 
> Well i also tested with my dell xps 13 and my macbook pro 16 with the same results. My pc is plugged into the same mains filter as Dave but i doubt that has any influence on the matter. In the beginning i did slightly prefer optical even to the macbook pro off battery. I have nothing against streamers if you need a streamer, i just remain unconvinced of the sound quality benefits (which isn't even the focal point of their advertising). Especially over optical out of pretty much anything.



Well then at this point I’m going to say it’s because your headphones aren’t transparent enough. The Utopia’s are so revealing that the whole chain is more important. That’s why sometimes people say they don’t like their headphone it could really be the rest of the setup that’s the issue.  

When I tried the Uptopia’s on the original Hugo, it had an enjoyable sounded but closed in. On the Hugo 2, it sounded too technical. And on the Dave/mscaler it’s just amazing. Wide open soundstage, deep punchy bass, liquid highs and mids.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> But why does timing when the dac (all dacs pretty much) do their own reclocking anyway). Even if the Phoenix did something that actually improves the sound, the pricing is ridiculous. You can get a pair of B&W Formation Duo's as an all in one system (which i'm considering for my next place where i won't have any shared walls) for more or less the same money.
> 
> Well i also tested with my dell xps 13 and my macbook pro 16 with the same results. My pc is plugged into the same mains filter as Dave but i doubt that has any influence on the matter. In the beginning i did slightly prefer optical even to the macbook pro off battery. I have nothing against streamers if you need a streamer, i just remain unconvinced of the sound quality benefits (which isn't even the focal point of their advertising). Especially over optical out of pretty much anything.



Read what Nuno actually said about what gets reclocked by the Phoenix and what doesn’t get reclocked. I’m not saying he is right or wrong but for sure he knows more about this than I do and probably more than you as well. No offence meant or intended. 

For me on the subject of sources my personal experience is that Daves transparency rather shines the spotlight on the sources and devices such as the Phoenix can make an improvement commensurate with the cost. As always, if something is not perceived as being value for money then buyers will not buy. If you can’t hear any difference in sources etc or with the Phoenix then you are in the lucky position of not needing or wanting to buy it. Again my personal experience of streamers is that they make a big difference to the sound of the system and indeed even the power supply to the streamer can make a big difference. YMMV of course as in all things of this nature.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> Read what Nuno actually said about what gets reclocked by the Phoenix and what doesn’t get reclocked. I’m not saying he is right or wrong but for sure he knows more about this than I do and probably more than you as well. No offence meant or intended.
> 
> For me on the subject of sources my personal experience is that Daves transparency rather shines the spotlight on the sources and devices such as the Phoenix can make an improvement commensurate with the cost. As always, if something is not perceived as being value for money then buyers will not buy. If you can’t hear any difference in sources etc or with the Phoenix then you are in the lucky position of not needing or wanting to buy it. Again my personal experience of streamers is that they make a big difference to the sound of the system and indeed even the power supply to the streamer can make a big difference. YMMV of course as in all things of this nature.


I'm not claiming to be an expert. I did read, i'm just arguing it all seems mostly irrelevant as the consensus for things that actually affect usb sound quality have been tackled by Dave already. I might need more revealing headphones, though for closed backs this is pretty much as good as it gets.
      But one thing that keeps me from going on a crusade for "ultimate transparency " is the fact that so many older songs on my playlist are so poorly recorded and one dimensional that the delta between my Desktop setup and my Airpods Pro is not that big. With properly recorded ,acoustic stuff it's night and day of course, but that's not all i listen to.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> all seems mostly irrelevant as the consensus for things that actually affect usb sound quality have been tackled by Dave already.



no, not the consensus, what you think, perhaps.



adrianm said:


> one thing that keeps me from going on a crusade for "ultimate transparency " is the fact that so many older songs on my playlist are so poorly recorded and one dimensional that the delta between my Desktop setup and my Airpods Pro is not that big.



I‘m not sure what older songs you listen to but at the weekend I downloaded an 11 CD set of Lightnin Hopkins blues recorded in the early part of the 1960s and for the most part the recording quality is sublime.


----------



## doraymon

midicun said:


> To be precise on my previous response, here is the link on ROON Community and the post I had found a few months back.
> 
> 
> https://community.roonlabs.com/t/question-on-u1-and-u1-mini/96203/13
> ...


That' alright, in any case if you wanto to do an A/B with optical you should always disconnect the USB when trying out the OPT, Isn't it the whole point to try and avoid noise coming in from the mains/USB?


----------



## sm60

iamoneagain said:


> The other issue is see a lot of complaints about the software on the 2go and the poly. Think the appeal is more how the attach directly to the Hugo 2 or Mogo. With the Dave, no reason to use unless really want to keep with Chord. But as said, Rob has nothing to do with these devices.



Is there any Chord product out there that does not have software bugs that cannot be fixed by an update? How is this company still in business?


----------



## iamoneagain

sm60 said:


> Is there any Chord product out there that does not have software bugs that cannot be fixed by an update? How is this company still in business?



Not sure why you have a beef with Chord. From a dac point of view, which is what Rob works on, they’ve been nothing but amazing. Also think their amps get a lot of praise.

The poly was their first venture into streaming and I guess that didn’t go well. I didn’t follow to closely but thought it all got resolved in the end. For the 2go thought less problems and most claimed an improvement over whatever they used to use for the Hugo 2.

Not even sure why responding since this is clearly trolling.


----------



## Ciggavelli (Sep 10, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> Not sure why you have a beef with Chord. From a dac point of view, which is what Rob works on, they’ve been nothing but amazing. Also think their amps get a lot of praise.
> 
> The poly was their first venture into streaming and I guess that didn’t go well. I didn’t follow to closely but thought it all got resolved in the end. For the 2go thought less problems and most claimed an improvement over whatever they used to use for the Hugo 2.
> 
> Not even sure why responding since this is clearly trolling.


Nah, it’s not trolling. I also have the Hugo2Go, and I am, like a bunch of other posters on here, still having big problems with their 2gos having popping and static sounds (Chord claims it’s a software issue, but they haven’t fixed it yet).    When the 2go works well, it makes the Hugo 2 that much better (and that should be proof enough for posters on here who doubt the sq benefits from dedicated streamers, but whatever).


----------



## miketlse

sm60 said:


> Is there any Chord product out there that does not have software bugs that cannot be fixed by an update?


Look at the chord product range.
You imply that all Chord products have software problems.
The poly and 2Go are the only two products where there have been problems from a software point of view.


----------



## iamoneagain

Ciggavelli said:


> Nah, it’s not trolling. I also have the Hugo2Go, and I am, like a bunch of other posters on here, still having big problems with their 2gos having popping and static sounds (Chord claims it’s a software issue, but they haven’t fixed it yet).    When the 2go works well, it makes the Hugo 2 that much better (and that should be proof enough for posters on here who doubt the sq benefits from dedicated streamers, but whatever).



The reason it’s trolling is asking how the company is still in business in a Dave thread of all places. You’ll find very few that have anything bad to say about the Dave itself.

Now when those other products from Chord are mentioned, it’s fair to tell someone to avoid them based on other reviews or personal experience. And that’s what I’ve done. But seems unfair that you should think whole company is bad. I’ve had Rob personally respond to one of my questions and also in posts. To me that’s good customers service.


----------



## AndrewOld (Sep 10, 2020)

Triode User said:


> Just on this, I asked Nuno at Innuos to explain the Phoenix and this is what he said to me,
> 
> "_The clock that's relevant for the asynchronous USB Audio protocol (emphasis on USB Audio) is related to the clock of the audio signal (PCM). This means the server itself when transmitting the audio does not have to use the internal (crappy) clock on the motherboard on the PCM stream so the DAC can decode it properly.
> 
> ...


Given that the reclocking the Phoenix does is, in their own words, “totally unrelated to audio”, it would arguably be more accurate to call it a regenerator, not a reclocker. For asynchronous USB the timing of the packets, however accurate, is irrelevant. Very old DACs that predate asynchronous USB are perhaps more likely to benefit. Bear in mind that the MScaler is also reclocking. And that in an ideal system a Phoenix should make no difference.


----------



## Ciggavelli (Sep 10, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> The reason it’s trolling is asking how the company is still in business in a Dave thread of all places. You’ll find very few that have anything bad to say about the Dave itself.
> 
> Now when those other products from Chord are mentioned, it’s fair to tell someone to avoid them based on other reviews or personal experience. And that’s what I’ve done. But seems unfair that you should think whole company is bad. I’ve had Rob personally respond to one of my questions and also in posts. To me that’s good customers service.


I love Chord products, but I’ve had a bunch of problems with them as well. My new DAVE I got at the time wouldn’t connect to my M-Scaler without making static sounds. Turns out it was a known problem with new units, and it took like several months for Chord to fix the issue. Thankfully my dealer let me borrow an older DAVE while I waited, but it was still annoying. Then this 2go issue. So maybe that biases me, but that’s my experience with Chord problems recently


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> no, not the consensus, what you think, perhaps.


I invite you to have a look at the audiosciencereview threads  . I think i'm a lot more open minded about  general snake oil  than they are.


----------



## edwardsean (Sep 10, 2020)

Triode User said:


> no, not the consensus, what you think, perhaps.



By "consensus," I don't think @adrianm  means the "majority opinion," but the "majority of things" that need to be addressed. I'm just going on context rather than the actual meaning of the word. I think his point is that the Dave has already dealt with the majority of things that effect jitter and noise from the incoming USB signal, thereby making units like the Phoenix superfluous. Here he is standing on the broad shoulders of Rob Watts, so it is not without warrant.

However, what @Triode User is graciously and gently trying to point out is that the situation with the incoming USB signal is fairly complex. We all have great respect for Rob Watts here. His solutions obviously have enormous effect, but @Triode User is right and there are still problems to be solved by external solutions.

*Why do we need servers, reclockers, regenerators, upgraded cables, power supplies, etc. for Dave–when the designer has designed them to be unnecessary? *

I'll follow up with more technical specifics, but I've also taken a step back and thought a bit about the psychology of it on the part of developers.

We are fortunate to have such brilliant minds working on these challenges to audio. These brilliant minds though are housed in, what do you call them again? Yeah, "human beings." All of us are limited and I've come to understand that when you devote your life to certain "hammer" all the world can look like "nails." It becomes harder to see the value of screws and bolts.

- To wit, the DAC designer can feel that his design is so good you don't need a dedicated server, the server designer can feel his work is so good you don't really need a regenerator, the regenerator designer may see his work as "the answer," and sees little improvement from expensive usb cables, the usb cable designer believes the key is in digital and perhaps undervalues power cables, the power cable maker feels that no amp or DAC performs properly without his contribution, and on and on.

I'm, of course, flattening this picture absurdly to draw a point. In the real "3-D" world, all capable developers understand that the problems and answers in an audio chain are holistic. Yet, we are all vulnerable to myopia. How many of us claim that our DAC, amp, cable, headphone is "the best" and crushes all others. How much more are the builders susceptible to exclusive devotion to their life labors. So, I don't easily throw out accusations of marketing hype and sell-out reviewers. We're human and have passions with limits on our field of view.

TL;DR: Again, the technical picture is really complex. We should be slow to draw such firm conclusions just because we've come to understand one aspect of the engineering. My own conclusion is that everything counts, not always, and definitely not in the same amount, but it is an audio "chain." The contribution of one part shifts the contribution of others, and you have to develop an understanding of the whole from source file all the way to transducer, and finally, your own brain.


----------



## AndrewOld (Sep 10, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> By "consensus," I don't think @adrianm  means the "majority opinion," but the "majority of things" that need to be addressed. I'm just going on context rather than the actual meaning of the word. I think his point is that the Dave has already dealt with the majority of things that effect jitter and noise from the incoming USB signal, thereby making units like the Phoenix superfluous. Here he is standing on the broad shoulders of Rob Watts, so it is not without warrant.
> 
> However, what @Triode User is graciously and gently trying to point out is that the situation with the incoming USB signal is fairly complex. We all have great respect for Rob Watts here. His solutions obviously have enormous effect, but @Triode User is right and there are still problems to be solved by external solutions.
> 
> ...


Would two reclockers sound better than one? Three? Four?  The M Scaler reclocks everything before it gets sent to the DAC. Does the M Scalers reclocking destroy the effects of the Phoenix’ reclocking?  The MScaler certainly hasn’t got a  3ppb OXCO clock like the Phoenix. Will Innuos produce a double BNC to BNC ”reclocker” to put back the reclocking magic the MScaler loses? Does diluting water make it wetter?


----------



## Arniesb

adrianm said:


> I invite you to have a look at the audiosciencereview threads  . I think i'm a lot more open minded about  general snake oil  than they are.


Funny you mentioned this and you still bought Dave! Why you dont listen to them and buy best measuring dac from that list? Hypocrisy.


----------



## edwardsean

AndrewOld said:


> Would two reclockers sound better than one? Three? Four?  The M Scaler reclocks everything before it gets sent to the DAC. Does the M Scalers reclocking destroy the effects of the Phoenix’ reclocking?  The MScaler certainly hasn’t got a  3ppb OXCO clock like the Phoenix. Will Innuos produce a double BNC to BNC ”reclocker” to put back the reclocking magic the MScaler loses?



I understand what you're saying, I really do, and have a good handle on the arguments involved. 

And, so I don't say this just to infuriate you:

I'm running two regenerators in series before the Dave. 

Okay, full disclosure, to be totally honest with you, it doesn't completely displease me if you are infuriated (smile). However, please do take care of your health.


----------



## AndrewOld

edwardsean said:


> I understand what you're saying, I really do, and have a good handle on the arguments involved.
> 
> And, so I don't say this just to infuriate you:
> 
> ...


Does it make a difference which of the two regenerators you have first? Or are they both the same? Have you got an MScaler as well?


----------



## edwardsean

AndrewOld said:


> Does it make a difference which of the two regenerators you have first? Or are they both the same? Have you got an MScaler as well?



Quick clarification. I'm serious about the discussion, but playful in tone. My plea is always for mutual respect in discussion, but also, if possible, fun.

I'm running: IsoRegen powered by LPS1.2 >USPCB>Phoenix>Sablon 2020>Dave. There a few reasons tor this, but, in part, it keeps my best (lowest noise) power supply closest to Dave. The Uptone LPS1.2 is fantastic but I prefer the Sean Jacobs PS in the Innuos. 

As I upgrade my chain I keep thinking that the IsoRegen will become a drag on SQ, but it keeps proving itself with every iteration. 

I've gone with _offline_ upscaling using HQP algorithms over Mscaler. This bypasses any upscaling processing noise from Mscaler, real time Server CPU, and even Dave's own internal WTA1 filters.


----------



## GreenBow

Christer said:


> Hmm in spite of the  substantial improvement BLU 2 and  Mscaler  bring to rbcd,
> I think it still boils down to the simple fact :"You can't get more than a pint out of a pint bottle".
> And to spend ridiculous money on exotic super-expensive cd transports like BLU2 that are  still LIMITED by the format they can play is imho not the way to go if one's goal is the highest fidelity to the orginal source which  in my case almost exclusively is well recorded and musically high content, acoustic music.
> In all  high quality systems I have auditioned including my own humble Qutest /HMS hi res sounds more realistic and effortless than rbcd. But I am very happy that I can also  enjoy music via rbcd thanks to my Mscaler.
> ...



Didn't the Blu Mk II also allow playing of files from a source, like the m-Scaler. I thought so. Anyway whatever I might be wrong. I think the Blu Mk II lead the way though. It was also down in history as the best CD-transport ever. No small feat.

I do understand the other side of opinion though, if it was prone to faults.



AndrewOld said:


> Here‘s the post where Rob says a Jitterbug will improve things with a DAVE, though not as much as running your laptop from battery.



Did good finding that post by Rob.

I heard the very same thing with Mojo, amp and speakers. Somehow missed taking any notice of the Jitterbug, as the Mojo thread went on. Late to the Jitterbug party, tried - immediate difference.

However from then on Rob incorporated filtering on the USB input for the Hugo 2, Qutest, and TT2. I don't know what filtering came before on what DACs. I just know Rob said filtering was on the DACS I mentioned, but not on the Mojo.

I have left a Jitterbug on the USB in on my DACs, but I never hear any difference without it. Or if there is a difference it must be small.

To maximise the Jitterbug, I use a USB extension from my PC. I add the Jitterbug on the end of that. Then put a 15cm USB cable to the DAC from the Jitterbug. That means any noise if filtered off at the shortest distance from the DAC. Any noise picked up after that will be minimal for the DAC to filter. It saves a lot of money since I don't need pricey shielded USB cables. I use bargain basement cables, and add the Jitterbug at the best place.



doraymon said:


> What is your setup? Headphones? Source?



Impressions of Chord DACs + M-Scaler have changed over time.

Initially some were saying that Even the Hugo 2 with M-Scaler was better in some ways than DAVE. O M-Scaler with Qutest or HMS+TT2, were better in some ways than DAVE too.

It was the same in most cases that they said the M-Scaler adds some qualities that outperform DAVE. (Meaning to any DAC.) However the DAVE wins on all others qualities.

Similalry folk said the same type of thing comparing Hugo 2 and M-Scaler to TT2 alone. M-Scaler brings some qualities over the TT2, but in all other areas TT2 wins.


Now everyone just says DAVE wins TT2 M-Scaler no argument.



iamoneagain said:


> Well with Chord products, Rob claims jitter doesn’t matter, so usually they’d tell you to stay away from optical. USB is reclocked within the Dave and that’s supposed to be a good thing. Issue with USB is the noise and not the jitter with the Dave. So even though I bought a streamer with improved clocking, just think it’s the low noise that will matter. Rob already pointed out in past that it all gets reclocked within Dave anyway
> 
> Here’s a link to measurements done on other dacs:
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...battle-of-s-pdif-vs-usb-which-is-better.1943/



Pretty sure all inputs are re-clocked within all Chord DACs.


----------



## iamoneagain

GreenBow said:


> Pretty sure all inputs are re-clocked within all Chord DACs.



There’s a post somewhere from Rob where he says just that. Thought he even felt it might hurt using a reclocker. If someone can find and post it. The improvement or not can be subjective but at least can get Rob’s point of view on it.


----------



## jlbrach (Sep 11, 2020)

GreenBow said:


> Didn't the Blu Mk II also allow playing of files from a source, like the m-Scaler. I thought so. Anyway whatever I might be wrong. I think the Blu Mk II lead the way though. It was also down in history as the best CD-transport ever. No small feat.
> 
> I do understand the other side of opinion though, if it was prone to faults.


the blu2 is an upsampler just like the m-scaler only the blu 2 has a cd-transport and a darn good one...I know have one and I use it  via roon using usb and it is fantastic


----------



## ClicketEKlack

Triode User said:


> no, not the consensus, what you think, perhaps.
> 
> 
> 
> I‘m not sure what older songs you listen to but at the weekend I downloaded an 11 CD set of Lightnin Hopkins blues recorded in the early part of the 1960s and for the most part the recording quality is sublime.



If you enjoy older blues recordings, Muddy Waters' Folk Singer is an exquisitely recorded album.


----------



## edwardsean (Sep 10, 2020)

An imaginary conversation:

Audioscience Nerd: The clock... noise... ground... jitter... phase... loop... oscillation....
Audiolover Ignoramus: .... but it sounds better
Audioscience Nerd: No, you only think it does.
Audiolover Ignoramus: No, I _know_ it does. You only _think_ it doesn't.
Audioscience Nerd: But, you _don't_ know. I know. I know what I know.
Audiolover Ignoramus: I hear what I hear.
Audioscience Nerd: But, you're wrong.
Audiolover Ignoramus: But, you're wrong.
Me: Hey, how about that final season of Game of Thrones? Pretty messed up right?
Everyone: Yes, totally!
Audioscience Nerd: Yeah, and the DTS engineering in the sound mix....

Honestly, neither of these guys are right, though both want to be. We've got to think through the technical details and let them inform our hearing. At the same time, these "technical" discussions are happening at one level here, at another on the audioscience for nerds thread, and at another level when the actual experts get together and disagree. So, we've also got to listen for ourselves, carefully, over time, and not jump to judgment on spec alone.

Of course, we need to heed well the guidance of Rob Watts, without question. However, e.g., Ted Smith, Jussi Lasko, Nuno Vitorino, John Swenson, Sean Jacobs, to name just a very small few, have earned their place in the discussion. Our audio experience is only impoverished if we reject their voices.

We especially need the likes of John Darko and Jay Luong, because they are not builders but end-users like us. But, unlike us, they have experience with a vastly greater range of products in innumerable combinations and configurations. It's one thing to say I tried a few power cords with Dave and they didn't make a difference. Fair enough, but Jay's literally tried hundreds from 5 to 5000 dollars in hundreds of systems. That doesn't mean he should be blindly trusted, no one should, but that is also a perspective I want to hear from.


----------



## number1sixerfan

My Dave has been delayed 3 times by Fedex now.. it's really killing me lol 

And I get it's corona, but the amount of delays I've had specifically with Fedex has been really frustrating. And every day they tell you it's coming when it's not, much rather just have an honest update to the date expected as UPS has done. Anyways, really hoping I have it before the weekend.


----------



## iamoneagain

number1sixerfan said:


> My Dave has been delayed 3 times by Fedex now.. it's really killing me lol
> 
> And I get it's corona, but the amount of delays I've had specifically with Fedex has been really frustrating. And every day they tell you it's coming when it's not, much rather just have an honest update to the date expected as UPS has done. Anyways, really hoping I have it before the weekend.



I see you own both the Utopia’s and L3000’s. Let me know how they compare on the Dave when you get it. I sold my L3000 to get the Utopia. Don’t think it would scale as well as the Utopia. Felt they were colored in a good way.


----------



## number1sixerfan

iamoneagain said:


> I see you own both the Utopia’s and L3000’s. Let me know how they compare on the Dave when you get it. I sold my L3000 to get the Utopia. Don’t think it would scale as well as the Utopia. Felt they were colored in a good way.



Will do. I really like each of them. L3000's are one of my favorite headphones, just couldn't have them as the only headphone. I can see that as well with the Utopia.


----------



## ubs28

number1sixerfan said:


> My Dave has been delayed 3 times by Fedex now.. it's really killing me lol
> 
> And I get it's corona, but the amount of delays I've had specifically with Fedex has been really frustrating. And every day they tell you it's coming when it's not, much rather just have an honest update to the date expected as UPS has done. Anyways, really hoping I have it before the weekend.



Atleast you do not have to wait till 2021 like I do for some products I ordered


----------



## number1sixerfan

ubs28 said:


> Atleast you do not have to wait till 2021 like I do for some products I ordered



I guess I should count my blessings lol


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> I invite you to have a look at the audiosciencereview threads  . I think i'm a lot more open minded about  general snake oil  than they are.



I’m not sure what you mean about being open minded about snake oil. Snake oil is snake oil. Full stop. One shouldn’t be open minded about it it all.


----------



## edwardsean

_*Is DAVE's USB input immune to Jitter?*_

We never seem to get too far from this debate do we? I don't think it will ever get resolved, and I don't think it will ever go away. I'm glad for this. Though  many minds won't be changed, I think a lot of users will be helped by periodically revisiting the issue. 

You have two pretty powerful factors poised in balance on either side. On the side of "Jitter Immune" you have one @Rob Watts and, well, that's all you need. On the side of "Not Jitter Immune" you have a long list of users who have found noise/jitter reducing devices to benefit SQ even when they shouldn't. 

A central question is Dave's USB galvanic isolation. (As a side note, optical is not the simple solution to all this. Light pulses are perfectly "galvanically isolated," but conversion to optical and back comes with its own noise/jitter issues. Commiserations.) 

In an earlier post I wrote that Dave's galvanic isolation is on the DAC side and therefore the USB receiver chipset itself is not galvanically isolated. Rob Watts corrected me and said, "Sorry but your "experts" are incorrect. The USB decoder is on the source side of the isolation, powered from the VBUS power on the USB cable. All that is transmitted is bit clock and pure PCM data across the isolator...."     Post #15,230 of 15,512    

If I'm not mistaken, we're both saying the same thing: the USB chipset is on the other side of the galvanic isolation from the DAC, the "source side." So the data signal is going: source ➔ usb decoder ➔ GI➔ DAC. So, according to Rob Watts, the GI is isolating the DAC from the noisy USB/Vbus on the other side, and "All that is transmitted is bit clock and pure PCM data across the isolator."

This makes complete sense to me! So, Dave's USB is virtually immune to jitter/noise, save your money, except.... 

I've found that various server/renderers, reclockers, regenerators, and heck, USB cables, have a–dramatic–impact on Dave's SQ. I have no desire to reject technical facts, on the contrary, I find my technical understanding lacking and want to know more. I have to get some handle on what's going on if I'm going to make real improvements to my system.

So, back to galvanic isolation. The most helpful thing that happened was a good long telephone conversation with an expert where I could ask questions and discuss in real time. The most helpful part of that helpful conversation can be distilled into these couple of sentences, found on the Uptone website. 

"While some DACs and converters do incorporate digital isolators for galvanic isolation—they are ALWAYS _after_ the USB input PHY chip and processor system. And unfortunately, USB input noise of all sorts still makes it through to some extent and reaches the DAC master clock (Impacts on the DAC master clock are ultimately why ANY upstream variations—in computer, USB, cables, etc.—are heard at all." (italics mine). 

There is also a full white paper on the subject on Uptone's site: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0660/6121/files/UpTone_REGEN_tech_summary.pdf

You can also find more information from John Swenson here: https://uptoneaudio.com/pages/j-swenson-tech-corner

* So, it seems that Rob Watts is satisfied with: USB chipset ➔ GI ➔ DAC/Masterclock. However, various upstream builders, and those who support them, insist there is more work to be done _before_ Dave's USB chipset: Regenerator/Reclocker, GI ➔ USB chipset ➔ GI ➔ DAC/Masterclock. I just read a review of the dCS Bartok where the reviewer noted that dCS also claims perfect galvanic isolation. In practice, that turned out not to be the case. He concluded that again there is no such things as perfect isolation. I think that's right and that it is a mistake to depend on any DAC makers claim to have completely solved the problem of noise/jitter. I too wish the case were different (so does my pocketbook). 

I don't write this to try and advance my side of an argument. I'm not a MOT; this isn't my field. The vast wealth of my engineering expertise could fill a thimble. I write this to encourage careful and open-minded exploration of the chain you put in front of Dave. I feel compelled to share because of how much I've gained from others to the multiplication of my enjoyment with our mutual friend: Dave. 

Cheers!


----------



## Triode User

ClicketEKlack said:


> If you enjoy older blues recordings, Muddy Waters' Folk Singer is an exquisitely recorded album.



Thanks. Yes I do like older blues recordings and I will check that out.


----------



## adrianm

Arniesb said:


> Funny you mentioned this and you still bought Dave! Why you dont listen to them and buy best measuring dac from that list? Hypocrisy.


Why would i listen to anyone? I've heard both sides and made my own decision. Dave just sounded that good to me.



Triode User said:


> I’m not sure what you mean about being open minded about snake oil. Snake oil is snake oil. Full stop. One shouldn’t be open minded about it it all.


Well let's call it "assumed snake oil" for now then .


----------



## doraymon

Anyone uses a power conditioner with Dave and which one?
Hope I'm not moving too deep into the snake oil territory or upsetting Rob Watts for thinking to use "another box"...


----------



## Triode User

doraymon said:


> Anyone uses a power conditioner with Dave and which one?
> Hope I'm not moving too deep into the snake oil territory or upsetting Rob Watts for thinking to use "another box"...



I have whole new power supply instead of the one inside the Dave. Does that count?


----------



## doraymon

Triode User said:


> I have whole new power supply instead of the one inside the Dave. Does that count?


What? You desacrated the holy body of the DAVE to change its power supply? How dare you?!!


----------



## Triode User

doraymon said:


> What? You desacrated the holy body of the DAVE to change its power supply? How dare you?!!



If you count taking out half a dozen screws and then screwing them back in as desecration then yes!


----------



## doraymon

Triode User said:


> If you count taking out half a dozen screws and then screwing them back in as desecration then yes!


I was just joking obviously.
That is interesting, why did you change it and which benefits did you find other than the "forbidden fruit" thing... (lol, joking again)


----------



## Triode User

doraymon said:


> I was just joking obviously.
> That is interesting, why did you change it and which benefits did you find other than the "forbidden fruit" thing... (lol, joking again)



Joke forgiven, its Friday after all with the weekend soooon!!!
I did it because it makes it sound sooooo amazingly sweeeet and even smooooother.


----------



## adrianm

doraymon said:


> Anyone uses a power conditioner with Dave and which one?
> Hope I'm not moving too deep into the snake oil territory or upsetting Rob Watts for thinking to use "another box"...


Power conditioning is the only thing i've tested that very clearly turned out not to be snake oil. No slightly this,slightly that as with cables, sources, etc. Just night and day difference. With my old dac though (Sony TA-ZH1ES).
    Dave i just plugged straight into the Isotek Sirius (mostly for surge protection since i have terrible power). Never bothered to test "him" with or without it though since it's not going anywhere based on previous results. 
   I'm much more willing to spend 2k on a better mains filter than a source component if it does turn out to make a difference. Not messing with the power supply just yet, though i do believe there may be some merit in that.


----------



## Ciggavelli

I use an Isotek Evo3 Sigmas power conditioner.  I also felt like it was easy to hear differences almost instantly.


----------



## Triode User

ClicketEKlack said:


> If you enjoy older blues recordings, Muddy Waters' Folk Singer is an exquisitely recorded album.



I bought it on Qobuz (292/24) and we (wife and daughter) are listening to it and eating home made pizza with some red wine. Oh boy. A wonderful album. Thank you.


----------



## doraymon

edwardsean said:


> _*Is DAVE's USB input immune to Jitter?*_
> 
> We never seem to get too far from this debate do we? I don't think it will ever get resolved, and I don't think it will ever go away. I'm glad for this. Though  many minds won't be changed, I think a lot of users will be helped by periodically revisiting the issue.
> 
> ...


Then my USB port must have something wrong because no matter how many cables I change, how many laptops or desktops I change, the result is always the same: the optical connection sounds better. But not a tad better, really much better. The feeling of being more in the music rather than in front of it. The notes seem to last longer and create more appreciable reverb etc. Just more real.
Look guys, I have no golden ears so even more I can say that if I notice it so clearly it must be big!
Is it noise from the mains, is it noise from the computer? I don't know.

I'm gonna give USB a last chance when the Lumin U1 will be here and should theoretically provide a cleaner signal to the DAC.


----------



## adrianm

doraymon said:


> Then my USB port must have something wrong because no matter how many cables I change, how many laptops or desktops I change, the result is always the same: the optical connection sounds better. But not a tad better, really much better. The feeling of being more in the music rather than in front of it. The notes seem to last longer and create more appreciable reverb etc. Just more real.
> Look guys, I have no golden ears so even more I can say that if I notice it so clearly it must be big!
> Is it noise from the mains, is it noise from the computer? I don't know.
> 
> I'm gonna give USB a last chance when the Lumin U1 will be here and should theoretically provide a cleaner signal to the DAC.


Well let us know if it's worth the improvement via USB/optical. I'm genuinely curious since i was considering a U1 mini or Aries G1 as well at one point.


----------



## edwardsean

doraymon said:


> Then my USB port must have something wrong because no matter how many cables I change, how many laptops or desktops I change, the result is always the same: the optical connection sounds better. But not a tad better, really much better. The feeling of being more in the music rather than in front of it. The notes seem to last longer and create more appreciable reverb etc. Just more real.
> Look guys, I have no golden ears so even more I can say that if I notice it so clearly it must be big!
> Is it noise from the mains, is it noise from the computer? I don't know.
> 
> I'm gonna give USB a last chance when the Lumin U1 will be here and should theoretically provide a cleaner signal to the DAC.



I'm not sure if you read carefully. I noted that optical has some inherent advantages in relation to noise/jitter, though comes with its own issues and limitations. 

My point was that the USB input is not immune to noise or jitter. The length of my post underscores the fact that getting the Dave to sound its best is involved. I would be curious to know what cables you tried. You could try any number of cables and they could all be lateral in quality and show little improvement to a stock cable. 

The same goes for laptops or desktops. To my mind, you could rotate all the laptops and desktops you like. You need a dedicated purpose built audio device. The Lumin is a good entry point, and should show you something. If it doesn't and that satisfies you, I understand. Life is short. However, there is a far way to go before you can actually draw conclusions about USB. 

What I'm trying to say is not really a matter of USB vs Optical. It's that Dave needs an audio front end system to reveal its potential, not just a general purpose laptop/desktop. If you prefer optical the new Denafrips Gaia would be worth looking into. What the Phoenix does for USB, Gaia does for Spdif and I2S. 

Enjoy the exploration.


----------



## Triode User

edwardsean said:


> I'm not sure if you read carefully. I noted that optical has some inherent advantages in relation to noise/jitter, though comes with its own issues and limitations.
> 
> My point was that the USB input is not immune to noise or jitter. The length of my post underscores the fact that getting the Dave to sound its best is involved. I would be curious to know what cables you tried. You could try any number of cables and they could all be lateral in quality and show little improvement to a stock cable.
> 
> ...



Agreed. This is not a one size fits all generalisation sort of thing. I happen to think that a well executed usb source can outperform optical but as you suggest one needs to be aware of the possibility that merely swooping sources or cables can result in a lateral swop. The transparency of Dave can reveal very subtle differences in sources but equally the following equipment has to have a level of transparency commensurate with Dave if the subtle aspects of the reproduction are not to be masked.


----------



## number1sixerfan

It actually, finally came. No impressions today. I’ve spent a low amount of time with it and I have a virtual date with the gf in a bit, so it will have to wait until tomorrow.. if I knew about the delay I would’ve cancelled it lol


----------



## sm60

iamoneagain said:


> Not sure why you have a beef with Chord. From a dac point of view, which is what Rob works on, they’ve been nothing but amazing. Also think their amps get a lot of praise.
> 
> The poly was their first venture into streaming and I guess that didn’t go well. I didn’t follow to closely but thought it all got resolved in the end. For the 2go thought less problems and most claimed an improvement over whatever they used to use for the Hugo 2.
> 
> Not even sure why responding since this is clearly trolling.


In my review I gave praise to Rob’s design,  and when my Dave is working, it does sound amazing. That said, would you buy an Android phone or iPhone that could not be updated. Any smartphone maker who designed a non updatable phone would go out of business in a nanosecond. Apple and Google employ the smartest developers on the planet. Yet they recognize that humans write buggy software. Apple updates its phones roughly every month or so. My Tesla software is updated by WiFi roughly every two weeks. In 2020, a software driven product that cannot be updated remotely is an anachronism.


----------



## jlbrach

the dave is 5 yrs old and still holds up as one of the very bests dac's one can buy


----------



## iamoneagain (Sep 11, 2020)

sm60 said:


> In my review I gave praise to Rob’s design,  and when my Dave is working, it does sound amazing. That said, would you buy an Android phone or iPhone that could not be updated. Any smartphone maker who designed a non updatable phone would go out of business in a nanosecond. Apple and Google employ the smartest developers on the planet. Yet they recognize that humans write buggy software. Apple updates its phones roughly every month or so. My Tesla software is updated by WiFi roughly every two weeks. In 2020, a software driven product that cannot be updated remotely is an anachronism.



But what software are you referring to?  The one in the Dave itself? Don’t think the Dave or and of the other Chord Dac ever mentioned there would be any. Any programming updates are usually hardware related and due to price and availability of a new FPGA chip.  Rob has already stated he hasn’t even begun b to work a new Dave.


----------



## sm60

iamoneagain said:


> But what software are you referring to?  The one in the Dave itself? Don’t think the Dave or and of the other Chord Dac ever mentioned there would be any. Any programming updates are usually hardware related and due to price and availability of a new FPGA chip.  Rob has already stated he hasn’t even begun b to work a new Dave.


There are millions of lines of code in Dave that implement its functionality, like in the M-scaler. At their core, like an iPhone, it’s not just hardware that makes these tick. It’s software. I believe some of the buggy behavior I have experienced with the Blu2 and Dave are due to software errors.


----------



## doraymon (Sep 12, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> I'm not sure if you read carefully. I noted that optical has some inherent advantages in relation to noise/jitter, though comes with its own issues and limitations.
> 
> My point was that the USB input is not immune to noise or jitter. The length of my post underscores the fact that getting the Dave to sound its best is involved. I would be curious to know what cables you tried. You could try any number of cables and they could all be lateral in quality and show little improvement to a stock cable.
> 
> ...


I'm afraid you are right, I had misunderstood your elaborate post.
I am surely less technically prepared than you are to discuss USB (or optical for that matter) connections.
I was just sharing the frustration of reading Rob Watts' praises on the bit perfect-jitter doesn't matter USB connection on the Dave and me hearing a much better sound out of the OPT.
But you're right, is not as simple as USB vs OPT, that's why I invested in the Lumin which has both.

Thanks for having taken the time to explain again your point.


----------



## JTbbb

doraymon, could it possibly be something in your PC Win 10 which is not set correctly, which is effecting your usb? This does seem to come up quite regularly with PC front ends.


----------



## miketlse

sm60 said:


> There are millions of lines of code in Dave that implement its functionality, like in the M-scaler. At their core, like an iPhone, it’s not just hardware that makes these tick. It’s software. I believe some of the buggy behavior I have experienced with the Blu2 and Dave are due to software errors.


Please post a bullet point list of all these behaviours caused by software errors.
I am sure that the hundreds of other posters/viewers on this thread, will be interested to learn about all these bugs that they have failed to spot.


----------



## edwardsean

This audio reviewer put's it pretty well. "So, I plug in this Zen [Innuos Server], and having used my MacBook Pro as a digital source for many years, I was honestly shocked at the difference that I instantly heard in the music...."

The reviewer's aim is to talk about M3 Sapphire Speakers, but relates his experience with Innuos Servers in the process. The relevant parts are: 4:18-7:55 and 11:30-13:59(end).

I don't use Innuos servers or any kind of speakers. My aim is to talk about the Dave, and he offers his experience of the difference an audio server can make in any system. Nenon over AS linked to it, and I thought it was worth sharing.


----------



## doraymon

JTbbb said:


> doraymon, could it possibly be something in your PC Win 10 which is not set correctly, which is effecting your usb? This does seem to come up quite regularly with PC front ends.


I am not sure what needs to be set in Windows10, I only downloaded and installed Chord Dave drivers. Other than that the optical out from the PC is directly from the motherboard which is a fairly good one (ASUS ROG Strix), if that is of any relevance at all. 
Is there anything else that needs to be tuned on Windows?


----------



## edwardsean

doraymon said:


> I am not sure what needs to be set in Windows10, I only downloaded and installed Chord Dave drivers. Other than that the optical out from the PC is directly from the motherboard which is a fairly good one (ASUS ROG Strix), if that is of any relevance at all.
> Is there anything else that needs to be tuned on Windows?



You may want to look into something like Fidelizer. https://fidelizer-audio.com


----------



## adrianm

doraymon said:


> I am not sure what needs to be set in Windows10, I only downloaded and installed Chord Dave drivers. Other than that the optical out from the PC is directly from the motherboard which is a fairly good one (ASUS ROG Strix), if that is of any relevance at all.
> Is there anything else that needs to be tuned on Windows?


What kind of usb cable are you using? *he asks,loathing what he’s become*


----------



## doraymon

adrianm said:


> What kind of usb cable are you using? *he asks,loathing what he’s become*


At the moment the stock one that came with DAVE.
I have also tried my AudioQuest Cinnamon and QED Reference with identical results.


----------



## adrianm

doraymon said:


> At the moment the stock one that came with DAVE.
> I have also tried my AudioQuest Cinnamon and QED Reference with identical results.


Not sure if there are any Roon settings that might be affecting outputs,might want to check that as well. I don't find the difference between optical and usb that big. I am using a Jitterbug.
     A/b'ing usb with and without jitterbug ,it's hard to spot any differences, but the delta between optical and non-jitterbug seems a bit bigger than optical and jitterbug usb for some reason.
   This is all in splitting hairs territory anyway and nothing game changing as you describe. Maybe i need a pair of Utopias


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> This audio reviewer put's it pretty well. "So, I plug in this Zen [Innuos Server], and having used my MacBook Pro as a digital source for many years, I was honestly shocked at the difference that I instantly heard in the music...."
> 
> The reviewer's aim is to talk about M3 Sapphire Speakers, but relates his experience with Innuos Servers in the process. The relevant parts are: 4:18-7:55 and 11:30-13:59(end).
> 
> I don't use Innuos servers or any kind of speakers. My aim is to talk about the Dave, and he offers his experience of the difference an audio server can make in any system. Nenon over AS linked to it, and I thought it was worth sharing.



He's not even using a Dave, which specifically deals with source issues, so i'm not sure how relevant that review is. Even Darko said Dave is more or less immune to sources. (If i say "it's the general consensus" i'll probably get attacked aso i'll leave it at that)
  Plus  most "reviewers" are just hype machines, and this one is shady in particular :
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...yoffs-and-eric-from-tekton-had-a-plan.879886/


----------



## doraymon

adrianm said:


> Not sure if there are any Roon settings that might be affecting outputs,might want to check that as well. I don't find the difference between optical and usb that big. I am using a Jitterbug.
> A/b'ing usb with and without jitterbug ,it's hard to spot any differences, but the delta between optical and non-jitterbug seems a bit bigger than optical and jitterbug usb for some reason.
> This is all in splitting hairs territory anyway and nothing game changing as you describe. Maybe i need a pair of Utopias



Roon settings are the same so I don't think that is the problem.
In the meantime here is what happened: I tried to play with fidelizer, as @edwardsean suggested and suddenly the difference is not so obvious.
I can't tell if in general the sound quality did improve with fidelizer (I would think so?)  but I can tell that in "purist" mode I can't really tell the difference between OPT and USB.

I am not a deep connoisseur of USB but I know that some ports work on the same hub and and there is a level of "contamination" between ports.
Now, being this a gaming PC there is all sort of USB devices connected to it, actually all ports are occupied (wireless mouse, wireless keyboard, wireless gaming headset, joystick, throttle control, rudder control pedals).
With fidelizer in purist mode all other non necessary services are disconnected so this could explain the difference.
But again, I'm just guessing here.


----------



## adrianm

doraymon said:


> Roon settings are the same so I don't think that is the problem.
> In the meantime here is what happened: I tried to play with fidelizer, as @edwardsean suggested and suddenly the difference is not so obvious.
> I can't tell if in general the sound quality did improve with fidelizer (I would think so?)  but I can tell that in "purist" mode I can't really tell the difference between OPT and USB.
> 
> ...


That's interesting, i'll give it a shot myself. I'm curious if Roon uses exclusive mode drivers  (I would assume it does). I noticed a big  difference when the Tidal desktop app introduced it. 
    What Fidelizer is doing seems to be pretty much what exclusive mode does.


----------



## Christer (Sep 13, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> This audio reviewer put's it pretty well. "So, I plug in this Zen [Innuos Server], and having used my MacBook Pro as a digital source for many years, I was honestly shocked at the difference that I instantly heard in the music...."
> 
> The reviewer's aim is to talk about M3 Sapphire Speakers, but relates his experience with Innuos Servers in the process. The relevant parts are: 4:18-7:55 and 11:30-13:59(end).
> 
> I don't use Innuos servers or any kind of speakers. My aim is to talk about the Dave, and he offers his experience of the difference an audio server can make in any system. Nenon over AS linked to it, and I thought it was worth sharing.



Hmm, I will definitely audition an Innous server in the not too distant future I hope.
But NOT thanks to this guy!
YT reviewers like this guy are imho, super annoying to watch and listen to.  " Don't forget to hit the subscribe button"
"hit the subscribe button"  over and over again, just drives  me crazy.   The  video virually screams ADVERTISING!
I could stand about one minute of it before I logged out.
I suppose he also  played some electronica, compressed pop or rock as well to really convince viewers.
PS. Sorry to be such a killjoy again.
Cheers CC


----------



## edwardsean (Sep 13, 2020)

adrianm said:


> He's not even using a Dave, which specifically deals with source issues, so i'm not sure how relevant that review is. Even Darko said Dave is more or less immune to sources. (If i say "it's the general consensus" i'll probably get attacked aso i'll leave it at that)
> Plus  most "reviewers" are just hype machines, and this one is shady in particular :
> https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...yoffs-and-eric-from-tekton-had-a-plan.879886/



The reviewer is using a Lampizator Amber3. No, it's not a Dave, but it's a very good DAC. I only shared the YT clip because of the broader point: DACs, all DACs, benefit from an audio optimized system. That goes for entry level Schitt DACs, Lampi DACs, $25,000+ EMM Labs and dCS DACs, etc. As I've shared, the premium DACs tend to claim to be jitter immune and source agnostic, but they are not. They all benefit from a front end.

But, I don't think upstream developers like Innuos, Aurender, Antipodes, SoTM, Sonore, Uptone, etc. etc., have solved the problems of jitter/noise either. Everyone's R&D departments are hard at work on the issue. It is–the–problem in digital audio.

I genuinely appreciate your belief that the Dave is the one machine that has solved it–it's my favorite DAC too! And, I get it, whose advice are you going to take? This YouTuber (I never heard of either) or Rob Watts.

It's only through a great deal of firsthand experimentation that I've come to disbelieve any claim of jitter immunity from any manufacturer–and therefore–I value them all. I've found the only effective (not perfect) solution is to deal with the issue at every single point in the chain from source file to server to regenerator to DAC, including power supplies, OS, and every single cable.

I think you may be pressing too hard on what Darko said two years ago, "Generally, the Dave is a little bit less source dependent than many other DACs I've used." He went on to compliment Rob Watts' work on Dave's input design, which he said means that we don't "necessarily have to spend big on our source components to get the most out of Dave which we might do with other DACs. "

I think this is really illuminating, because one person can hear that and think, "Good, because the Dave is spendy all by itself. I'm done then." Someone, else thinks, "Mmm... what do you mean by "necessarily"? What exactly is the gap between "a little less source dependent" (Darko) and "more or less immune to sources" (adrianm)? He's leaving room for his listeners to decide how far they want to take the Dave, which is exactly right. Darko himself has "moved on" since then to better servers and the Bartok and Tambaqui. As a professional reviewer of items in stock form, there's only so far he can take the Dave and give it focus.

That's for us to do.


----------



## MisterMoJo (Sep 13, 2020)

doraymon said:


> I am not sure what needs to be set in Windows10, I only downloaded and installed Chord Dave drivers. Other than that the optical out from the PC is directly from the motherboard which is a fairly good one (ASUS ROG Strix), if that is of any relevance at all.
> Is there anything else that needs to be tuned on Windows?


Yeah make sure your soundcard is pumping out the same resolution you put in it.  Settings in the sound panel for windows and the sound card.
edit: while we are at it, I noticed the same thing you did regarding optical on my  gaming pc.  It definitely was better than usb.  But long story short it may have been the power I was feeding the system.
edit: full disclosure: I don't own a Dave.  Just a lowly yggy.


----------



## adrianm

MisterMoJo said:


> But long story short it may have been the power I was feeding the system.


Why do you say that? My gaming pc is plugged into a mains filter,i am curious if that could possibly be relevant


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> The reviewer is using a Lampizator Amber3. No, it's not a Dave, but it's a very good DAC. I only shared the YT clip because of the broader point: DACs, all DACs, benefit from an audio optimized system. That goes for entry level Schitt DACs, Lampi DACs, $25,000+ EMM Labs and dCS DACs, etc. As I've shared, the premium DACs tend to claim to be jitter immune and source agnostic, but they are not. They all benefit from a front end.
> 
> But, I don't think upstream developers like Innuos, Aurender, Antipodes, SoTM, Sonore, Uptone, etc. etc., have solved the problems of jitter/noise either. Everyone's R&D departments are hard at work on the issue. It is–the–problem in digital audio.
> 
> ...


I guess i'll just have to see if this rings true for me with the next headphones i get, since if i ever went with speakers i would probably get to use them about 30 minutes a week. 
    Maybe 20k speakers and 20k amps are more revealing of these subtleties, but it surprised me that the Utopia folks see some differences as well. I never expected the Utopias to be that much better than the Z1R and have steered clear of them because of their comparatively "thin" sound.
   If Dave can be further improved with a better source on other systems, great, i don't mind buying "more happiness ". Though in this case an all in one solution like Bartok would be more appealing to me, unless Dave+ M-scaler would be decidedly better.


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> The reviewer is using a Lampizator Amber3. No, it's not a Dave, but it's a very good DAC.


I'm sure it is, but that alone is not a basis to draw conclusions regarding issues as complex as jitter and dac architecture,especially since Rob's approach is vastly different than others. Everyone else seems to just be obsessing over power supplies and clocks.


----------



## gnomen

adrianm said:


> I'm curious if Roon uses exclusive mode drivers


It does on my iMac and through headphones the difference is noticeable compared to the system output via MacOS


----------



## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> I'm sure it is, but that alone is not a basis to draw conclusions regarding issues as complex as jitter and dac architecture,especially since Rob's approach is vastly different than others. Everyone else seems to just be obsessing over power supplies and clocks.



I think you understand I wasn't asking that this one random YouTube clip should be the lone "basis to draw conclusions regarding issues as complex as jitter and dac architecture."


----------



## iamoneagain (Sep 13, 2020)

adrianm said:


> I guess i'll just have to see if this rings true for me with the next headphones i get, since if i ever went with speakers i would probably get to use them about 30 minutes a week.
> Maybe 20k speakers and 20k amps are more revealing of these subtleties, but it surprised me that the Utopia folks see some differences as well. I never expected the Utopias to be that much better than the Z1R and have steered clear of them because of their comparatively "thin" sound.
> If Dave can be further improved with a better source on other systems, great, i don't mind buying "more happiness ". Though in this case an all in one solution like Bartok would be more appealing to me, unless Dave+ M-scaler would be decidedly better.



Yeah I don’t find Utopia’s thin at all on the Dave. And with the mscaler it removes a little bit of bloom by tightening the bass and they’ve still not thin. I find them a hair on the warm side with the Dave. This was quite the opposite with the Hugo 2. I had a feeling it wasn’t the headphones and took a chance on the Dave with no regrets.

My prior headphones were the AT L3000 and these are colored on the warm side, so for me to find the Uptopia’s warm on the Dave/mscaler is surprising.

But everyone’s hearing and preferences are different. If you do get them, it’s still possible you won’t like them. For me, I think of them as showing off what the Dave is possible of.


----------



## MisterMoJo

adrianm said:


> Why do you say that? My gaming pc is plugged into a mains filter,i am curious if that could possibly be relevant


Well I believe that my dedicated 20 amp line is feeding cleaner power than the plug that the gaming computer is plugged into.  I could be wrong I suppose since this is up for debate and I am not an expert.  YMMV.  My point was to make sure the sound card is putting out the same thing you feed it if you are using the optical on the mobo.  Sometimes they don't.  Sometimes optical is limited to 24/96 or lower.  On my gaming PC it does put out 24/192 but not 24/176.4 even though it does 24/88.2.  Sometimes the default settings just put out 16/48.  You may know that already.


----------



## adrianm

MisterMoJo said:


> Well I believe that my dedicated 20 amp line is feeding cleaner power than the plug that the gaming computer is plugged into.  I could be wrong I suppose since this is up for debate and I am not an expert.  YMMV.  My point was to make sure the sound card is putting out the same thing you feed it if you are using the optical on the mobo.  Sometimes they don't.  Sometimes optical is limited to 24/96 or lower.  On my gaming PC it does put out 24/192 but not 24/176.4 even though it does 24/88.2.  Sometimes the default settings just put out 16/48.  You may know that already.


I do, but if the playback application is in exclusive mode than there's no need to worry about settings in the sound options as it will automatically output the resolution of the file with no conversion. If it's not, the windows mixer will kick in and mess with everything.


----------



## doraymon

MisterMoJo said:


> Yeah make sure your soundcard is pumping out the same resolution you put in it.


Yes, Roon is running properly in exclusive mode and takes control of all those settings.
I get a lossless signal path in both cases (USB and OPT). I really think it's something related to the quality of power feeding the PC.
I have 2 wall sockets with 3 power strips of which only 2 are filtered (Consonance PW-1) and one is a generic strip.

I have all sort of devices connected: 2 active speakers, the PC, the monitor, the Dave, a lamp, a USB charger, my indoors cycling fan, the work laptop charger...
Not the ideal scenario in terms of audio hygiene


----------



## Jawed

edwardsean said:


> _*Is DAVE's USB input immune to Jitter?*_
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...


Jitter and noise are separate mechanisms.

Rob, for a long time preferred the sound of USB compared with optical into his DACs - but eventually changed his mind. He was "fooled" by some noise artefacts that sounded like improved hi-fi qualities.

Rob doesn't maintain that DAVE's galvanic isolation is perfect. At very high frequencies (hundreds of MHz and into the GHz region) common-mode noise gets through.

I recommend you read all of Rob's posts. There aren't that many threads he's posted in, so they're pretty easy to find and there's lots to learn!


----------



## Jawed

sm60 said:


> In my review I gave praise to Rob’s design,  and when my Dave is working, it does sound amazing.


Unfortunately there have been quite a lot of DAVEs in recent times that seem to have a manufacturing problem. This makes them ultra-sensitive to the quality of connection over BNC resulting in clicking noises and distortion/noise. You can check this either by trying the "single BNC" output on the back of BLU 2 into DAVE (using just a single BNC cable, disconnect the other) or by connecting your CD player or streaming source to DAVE directly. DAVE is very likely to work correctly then.

If so, this is a repair/swap fix. I've not seen a detailed explanation for why some DAVEs have had this problem.


----------



## edwardsean

Jawed said:


> Jitter and noise are separate mechanisms.
> 
> Rob, for a long time preferred the sound of USB compared with optical into his DACs - but eventually changed his mind. He was "fooled" by some noise artefacts that sounded like improved hi-fi qualities.
> 
> ...



Yes, jitter and noise are separate mechanisms. No one said otherwise.

Yes, I've definitely learned a lot from Rob's posts as well, including that we can easily mistake noise over USB for clarity. That's essential insight. 

Yes, I'm glad you brought up the fact that Rob Watts never claimed perfect galvanic isolation. I think users sometimes take his advice that isolators/regenerators are unnecessary as Dave's USB is perfectly isolated. Maybe we should use the term "complete." That's helpful.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Jawed said:


> Unfortunately there have been quite a lot of DAVEs in recent times that seem to have a manufacturing problem. This makes them ultra-sensitive to the quality of connection over BNC resulting in clicking noises and distortion/noise. You can check this either by trying the "single BNC" output on the back of BLU 2 into DAVE (using just a single BNC cable, disconnect the other) or by connecting your CD player or streaming source to DAVE directly. DAVE is very likely to work correctly then.
> 
> If so, this is a repair/swap fix. I've not seen a detailed explanation for why some DAVEs have had this problem.


This happened to my DAVE when I first got it. The dealer said Chord believed it to be a firmware issue.


----------



## Mikey99 (Sep 14, 2020)

Ciggavelli said:


> This happened to my DAVE when I first got it. The dealer said Chord believed it to be a firmware issue.


I was also told it was firmware issue.  In my case they replaced the unit.


----------



## Jawed

edwardsean said:


> Yes, jitter and noise are separate mechanisms. No one said otherwise.


You need to separate the claims for equipment that "reduces jitter" from claims that the same equipment "reduces noise".

We have a beautiful, simple, test that common-mode noise affects the performance of DAVE: ferrites used on electrical cables feeding data to DAVE cause variations in performance. (Same goes for the mains cable...)

There's a theory that jitter (or maybe simply noise) in optical data has varying effects on DAVE's performance, based on variations in noise induced into the SPDIF circuitry. This box:

https://ifi-audio.com/products/spdif-ipurifier2/

has an optical input and an optical output. Perhaps it could be useful in experiments to determine whether DAVE's optical input is susceptible to signal quality. I don't think it could help specifically with the jitter question though. But at least tests over optical eliminate contamination by common-mode noise.

I don't know of a way that we can test varying jitter specifically (while playing music). 

I believe all of this leaves us unable to test claims about DAVE's jitter handling.


----------



## iamoneagain

Need advice on a good surge protector / power conditioner for the Dave. Electricity was going crazy last night and blew 4 power strips for other electronics. Luckily the Dave was unharmed. I tried plugging the Dave into cheap power strip I just got but music is brighter and not as smooth as directly into the wall.   Don’t want to spend too much.


----------



## Ciggavelli

iamoneagain said:


> Need advice on a good surge protector / power conditioner for the Dave. Electricity was going crazy last night and blew 4 power strips for other electronics. Luckily the Dave was unharmed. I tried plugging the Dave into cheap power strip I just got but music is brighter and not as smooth as directly into the wall.   Don’t want to spend too much.


Cheap, but quality:

https://www.amazon.com/Furman-Elite...&keywords=furman+psi+15&qid=1600127921&sr=8-8

Expensive, but worth it. Noticeable improvements:

https://www.thecableco.com/evo3-sigmas-power-conditioner.html

I own both, and both improve sound quality, but the IsoTek definitely more


----------



## iDesign (Sep 14, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> Need advice on a good surge protector / power conditioner for the Dave. Electricity was going crazy last night and blew 4 power strips for other electronics. Luckily the Dave was unharmed. I tried plugging the Dave into cheap power strip I just got but music is brighter and not as smooth as directly into the wall.   Don’t want to spend too much.


I recommend whole-home surge suppression devices like those from Schneider Electric. Typically cheap strip surge protectors increase line noise and that’s also why most of the ultra high-end power conditioners like those from High Fidelity Cables, Sound Application, etc. etc. don’t include them.


----------



## midicun (Sep 15, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> Need advice on a good surge protector / power conditioner for the Dave. Electricity was going crazy last night and blew 4 power strips for other electronics. Luckily the Dave was unharmed. I tried plugging the Dave into cheap power strip I just got but music is brighter and not as smooth as directly into the wall.   Don’t want to spend too much.



You should seriously consider both a whole house surge protection and another voltage spike/surge protection distribution block at your audio equipment as @iDesign and @Ciggavelli recommended.

I happen to use Nordost QB8 & QKORE1 for noise reduction, I am not 100% sure if it has surge protection.
Isotek Sigmas and Aquarius are very well known and has had no bad press.
Lately Audioquest Niagara has been getting a lot of press but I have no experience.
Shunyata Denali might be something you might want to research. Both Shunyata & Nordost are excellent at responding to questions (pre-sales).


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> Need advice on a good surge protector / power conditioner for the Dave. Electricity was going crazy last night and blew 4 power strips for other electronics. Luckily the Dave was unharmed. I tried plugging the Dave into cheap power strip I just got but music is brighter and not as smooth as directly into the wall.   Don’t want to spend too much.


I have really bad power too, old apartment building with lots of neighbours and the city itself has power issues,old transformers,etc. Sometimes (very rarely) the lights flicker on and off so fast electronics don't even turn off.
  Seconding (and thirding) the Isotek recommendation, i own the Sirius,a bit down the line from the Sigmas and Aquarius, i got it because i couldn't fit boxes that size behind my desk. Like i said before i've never heard Dave without it, i'll do a little later tonight though. 
   I honestly still think that later at night Dave sounds better than in the morning, with my old dac it was a night and day difference with the filter, but still really big differences throughout the day.
 I'm not sure if it's a human brain thing (stress from work,etc during the day) or it's actually the power causing this, as googling it i found a lot of people claiming music sounds better at night.


----------



## doraymon

Sorry for the OT but in the context of audio hygiene to protect Dave from noise, does a lamp produce any kind of noise?
The lamp has a led bulb so I assume there must be some level of voltage adjustment?
I’m really ignorant about modern lighting solutions... I’m stuck with the good old incandescent bulbs... lol


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> I have really bad power too, old apartment building with lots of neighbours and the city itself has power issues,old transformers,etc. Sometimes (very rarely) the lights flicker on and off so fast electronics don't even turn off.
> Seconding (and thirding) the Isotek recommendation, i own the Sirius,a bit down the line from the Sigmas and Aquarius, i got it because i couldn't fit boxes that size behind my desk. Like i said before i've never heard Dave without it, i'll do a little later tonight though.
> I honestly still think that later at night Dave sounds better than in the morning, with my old dac it was a night and day difference with the filter, but still really big differences throughout the day.
> I'm not sure if it's a human brain thing (stress from work,etc during the day) or it's actually the power causing this, as googling it i found a lot of people claiming music sounds better at night.



Thanks everyone for the advice. Has an electrician come by and said wiring was fine and that issue was with the electric company. Surprisingly they came out yesterday and I think replaced a transformer. I left the Dave unplugged all night just in case but seems the power fluctuations are fixed and giving it a try this morning. This will give me more time to consider my options.

Also my new Stsck Audio Link II got delayed in transit. Last I checked it was still in the UK.


----------



## Amberlamps

Jawed said:


> Jitter and noise are separate mechanisms.
> 
> Rob, for a long time preferred the sound of USB compared with optical into his DACs - but eventually changed his mind. He was "fooled" by some noise artefacts that sounded like improved hi-fi qualities.
> 
> ...



Lol, my sarcasm radar failed me!

Or were you being serious ?


----------



## doraymon

Is anyone using Dave to drive desktop speakers (passive) with success?
I am thinking to try...


----------



## KMann (Sep 16, 2020)

doraymon said:


> Is anyone using Dave to drive desktop speakers (passive) with success?
> I am thinking to try...


I have a near-field setup (sitting 1 m away from the speakers) and direct drive Omega CAMs high efficiency speakers and also Dragonfire Acoustics Mini Dragons and JL fathom F110 sub. The speakers are driven out of DAVE's RCA and the Sub out of XLR. I use Roon and Audiolense for Room EQ. Very happy with the results and prefer direct driving to using amps for transparency. My listening level is between  -11dB - 0dB depending on time of day and genre. The best results are when I use the Mini dragons as super tweeters as they add  more air to the top end.

Edit: Though I felt a sub is necessary with both the Omegas and the Mini Dragons, either of them sound great just by themselves (with typical pros and cons associated with planar vs Cone speakers). I just experimented with the idea of turning the planar monitors as super tweeters and it worked out well just because I had them both. There are other options for super tweeters too if one feels it is necessary.


----------



## doraymon (Sep 16, 2020)

KMann said:


> I have a near-field setup (sitting 1 m away from the speakers) and direct drive Omega CAMs high efficiency speakers and also Dragonfire Acoustics Mini Dragons and JL fathom F110 sub. The speakers are driven out of DAVE's RCA and the Sub out of XLR. I use Roon and Audiolense for Room EQ. Very happy with the results and prefer direct driving to using amps for transparency. My listening level is between  -11dB - 0dB depending on time of day and genre. The best results are when I use the Mini dragons as super tweeters as they add  more air to the top end.
> 
> Edit: Though I felt a sub is necessary with both the Omegas and the Mini Dragons, either of them sound great just by themselves (with typical pros and cons associated with planar vs Cone speakers). I just experimented with the idea of turning the planar monitors as super tweeters and it worked out well just because I had them both. There are other options for super tweeters too if one feels it is necessary.


Thanks a lot. Yes the Omega were on my radar already a couple of years ago and ideally I wouldn't want to bother with a sub.
That's what I always say before ending up buying the additional component 2 weeks later...
I was hoping for something even more compact, I also have 1m approx. The Dragonfire are out of my budget at the moment.

EDIT: Would the smaller Super 3i be a fair alternative to the CAMs?


----------



## KMann (Sep 16, 2020)

doraymon said:


> EDIT: Would the smaller Super 3i be a fair alternative to the CAMs?



I have the Super 3is too and use them as the side/rear channels in a multi-channel nearfield setup. The 3is cannot match the midrange transparency speed of  the CAMs. The CAMs can be used at lower volumes without the sub but the 3is definitely need the low end support. CAMs are only slightly bigger than 3i and I would definitely recommend the CAMs if your budget allow it. Louis is easy to work with and was open to changing the cabinet dimensions (as long as it meets the volume and minimum depth requirements) including front porting if the space is limited on the desk.


----------



## doraymon

KMann said:


> I have the Super 3is too and use them as the side/rear channels in a multi-channel nearfield setup. The 3is cannot match the midrange transparency speed of  the CAMs. The CAMs can be used at lower volumes without the sub but the 3is definitely need the low end support. CAMs are only slightly bigger than 3i and I would definitely recommend the CAMs if your budget allow it. Louis is easy to work with and was open to changing the cabinet dimensions (as long as it meets the volume and minimum depth requirements) including front porting if the space is limited on the desk.


Sounds great, I do have some space restrictions so different proportions might be a good option.
I will definitely look into the CAMS. I hope he can ship overseas...


----------



## iamoneagain (Sep 17, 2020)

I received my Stack Audio Link II yesterday. Using with roon was very easy. Plug in cables and turn on. Roon finds as new endpoint. The path shows the Stack Audio and the mscaler or I switch to claim it’s the Dave since looks better.

So I just did a quick test with sources feeding into mscaler and then into the Dave. Using Poweradd battery on mscaler to eliminate RFI.

I put on what I knew was a harsh recording, Howard Jones album Dream into Action. With MacBook vocals were still harsh but rest of the music had weight. With the Link II the vocals are smoother and little more air around them. It had hint of increased soundstage. But overall made for a better listen. I was already satisfied with the MacBook Pro, any improvement was welcome.

Then went back to the Mac mini and difference were bigger. Vocals were harsh and there wasn’t as much weight. Not as immersive. Never liked using usb on this system and could only do it with HF on. Link II much better as mentioned above.

I couldn’t test the usb purifier function since I could find a standard usb cable to hook the Link to the computers. I really had no intention of ever using it this way. Bought to have a straight forward roon endpoint with no setup.

Oh forgot to mention the Link II is roughly about the size of a Hugo 2 and maybe similar weight. It’s solid aluminum case looks great. A lot of these endpoints that are based of raspberry pi really do look ugly. Standard case with screws exposed. Anyway forgot who suggested this in this thread but thanks a lot. Exactly what I was looking for as for as price, sound quality  and ease of use.


----------



## MatW

iamoneagain said:


> I received my Stack Audio Link II yesterday. Using with roon was very easy. Plug in cables and turn on. Roon finds as new endpoint. The path shows the Stack Audio and the mscaler or I switch to claim it’s the Dave since looks better.
> 
> So I just did a quick test with sources feeding into mscaler and then into the Dave. Using Poweradd battery on mscaler to eliminate RFI.
> 
> ...


This thing looks interesting. I am looking for a Roon ready wireless streaming solution for my second set-up, where cables are tricky. I wonder if it is feasible to stream hi-res to this wirelessly? Or are you using it wired?


----------



## iamoneagain

MatW said:


> This thing looks interesting. I am looking for a Roon ready wireless streaming solution for my second set-up, where cables are tricky. I wonder if it is feasible to stream hi-res to this wirelessly? Or are you using it wired?



You need to hook it up to Ethernet first and then can be used wireless. You toggle it on in web browser. Roon even has configure weblink in devise setup.

I’ve had dropout issues with wireless in past when I used hires with previous Mac based endpoints. My solution is I have the roon core hooked to Ethernet via wireless extender in other part of the house and headphones just happen to be near router. I suppose 2 extenders could also work if neither core or endpoint are near router. This way you don’t actually have wire whole house for Ethernet. But I’d give wireless a try first.


----------



## sm60

Mikey99 said:


> I was also told it was firmware issue.  In my case they replaced the unit.


None of this makes sense to me from a business standpoint. I have owned Oppo Blu Ray players for well over 15 years (now have two 205s). It’s trivial to upgrade the firmware on Oppo players. Heck, even $100 LG/Sony el cheapo players from Walmart and Best Buy have user upgradable firmware. The Dave is a $10k DAC that was released 5 years ago with non-upgradable firmware or software. You have a problem, it requires a painful and expensive return. Most problems are software fixable. Cameras, cellphones, Blu Ray players, heck even my Juro espresso machine has an upgradable software interface. When will Chord enter the 21st century?


----------



## miketlse

sm60 said:


> None of this makes sense to me from a business standpoint. I have owned Oppo Blu Ray players for well over 15 years (now have two 205s). It’s trivial to upgrade the firmware on Oppo players. Heck, even $100 LG/Sony el cheapo players from Walmart and Best Buy have user upgradable firmware. The Dave is a $10k DAC that was released 5 years ago with non-upgradable firmware or software. You have a problem, it requires a painful and expensive return. Most problems are software fixable. Cameras, cellphones, Blu Ray players, heck even my Juro espresso machine has an upgradable software interface. When will Chord enter the 21st century?


Why are you blaming Chord?
The IPR for all the dac software code is owned by Rob Watts, and after working 30 years to develop the code, he is very protective of this IPR, and will not allow any old hacker to clone the code via the web. This means that the software is not Chords property.

This still leaves open the question of why @sm60 will not enter the 21st century, and use google or the head-fi search functionality, to answer his question.
@Amberlamps you were monitoring the wrong thread.


----------



## Hooster

miketlse said:


> Why are you blaming Chord?
> The IPR for all the dac software code is owned by Rob Watts, and after working 30 years to develop the code, he is very protective of this IPR, and will not allow any old hacker to clone the code via the web. This means that the software is not Chords property.
> 
> This still leaves open the question of why @sm60 will not enter the 21st century, and use google or the head-fi search functionality, to answer his question.
> @Amberlamps you were monitoring the wrong thread.



I think sm60 has a valid point and you are being unfair and fail to see the big picture. I believe what sm60 would like to see fixed are bugs and issues with functionality. These should be fixable with updateable firmware without any risk to Rob's work. 

Chord is a small company and can not be expected to be perfect in every way. They are ahead of their time in some ways and behind in others. There is no harm in admitting that and trying to do something about it. Everyone will reap the benefits when these issues are addressed.


----------



## Hooster (Sep 17, 2020)

sm60 said:


> I am completely underwhelmed by their sound through my Sennheiser headphones (600 or 800) or in preamp mode. As good as the system sounds in the DAC mode, *it is singularly unimpressive to my ears in the preamplifier mode or headphone mode*. First, Dave cannot compete at all with a state of the art preamplifier for sheer dynamics or the you-are-there enveloping realism of Audio Research Reference tube preamplifiers and mono block tube amplifiers. That should hardly be surprising to anyone who’s heard what state of the art tube or solid state preamps can do. Similarly the headphone jack in the Dave is hardly going to sound as impressive as a no hands barred dedicated headphone amplifier, like the Woo Audio WA-5 or others of this caliber.



Since you have brought this up I have to admit that I find this topic fascinating and bewildering. How can it sound so great in the DAC mode but not work as a preamp or headphone amplifier? I believe you since I have had the same kind of experience. I used to think that feeding a signal from a dac with a lossless volume adjustment directly to a power amplifier must always be better than going through a preamplifier. I have changed my mind on this and these days I insist on using a preamp, it just sounds better that way for some reason I can't fathom. Isn't the headphone output of something like  DAVE good enough for you? Seems like it is not. Again, I have had the same kind of experience and I am amazed by what a dedicated headphone amplifier can do.

What can we take away from this? DAVE owners might like to experiment with external headphone amplifiers and preamps. They might be pleasantly surprised and they may come to enjoy their DAVE even more.

You may enjoy this video:


----------



## miketlse

Hooster said:


> I think sm60 has a valid point and you are being unfair and fail to see the big picture. I believe what sm60 would like to see fixed are bugs and issues with functionality. These should be fixable with updateable firmware without any risk to Rob's work.
> 
> Chord is a small company and can not be expected to be perfect in every way. They are ahead of their time in some ways and behind in others. There is no harm in admitting that and trying to do something about it. Everyone will reap the benefits when these issues are addressed.


You are failing to see the part of the picture, that the IPR for the software code does not belong to Chord, so they cannot release updates over the internet, no matter how much they, you, or any other poster would like it.
As you point out, Chord are a small company, so they can do without posters throwing mud at them, until enough of it sticks.


----------



## Ciggavelli

I think on this forum posters are sometimes scared to post negative opinions because they don’t want to hurt the creators that also post on here. I know I’ve personally held some negative opinions back in a thread about a popular wood closed backed headphone because I didn’t want to offend the designer. 

So, it’s kinda a mixed blessing that the actual designers post here. I mean it is super cool to interact with these designers on a forum, and they definitely have great knowledge and can answer very technical questions. But, on the other hand, people hold things back in an attempt to not be rude or offend industry folks. 

This kinda leads to a biased opinion of a product, which could mislead people researching something before buying it.  There is no quick solution to fix this obviously, but I just wanted to put it out there.


----------



## MatW (Sep 17, 2020)

Ciggavelli said:


> I think on this forum posters are sometimes scared to post negative opinions because they don’t want to hurt the creators that also post on here. I know I’ve personally held some negative opinions back in a thread about a popular wood closed backed headphone because I didn’t want to offend the designer.
> 
> So, it’s kinda a mixed blessing that the actual designers post here. I mean it is super cool to interact with these designers on a forum, and they definitely have great knowledge and can answer very technical questions. But, on the other hand, people hold things back in an attempt to not be rude or offend industry folks.
> 
> This kinda leads to a biased opinion of a product, which could mislead people researching something before buying it.  There is no quick solution to fix this obviously, but I just wanted to put it out there.


Likewise, I have not complained on headfi about a certain rubber part of an odd-looking high-end headphone breaking after only 3 hours of use . For the same reasons.


----------



## adrianm

Hooster said:


> I am amazed by what a dedicated headphone amplifier can do.


With what headphones would that be? I still fail to see the point of a separate headphone amp for all but 2 or 3 exceptions, and even then owners say it's a  transparency trade-off.


----------



## JaZZ (Sep 17, 2020)

Hooster said:


> Since you have brought this up I have to admit that I find this topic fascinating and bewildering. *How can it sound so great in the DAC mode but not work as a preamp or headphone amplifier?* I believe you since I have had the same kind of experience. I used to think that feeding a signal from a dac with a lossless volume adjustment directly to a power amplifier must always be better than going through a preamplifier. I have changed my mind on this and these days I insist on using a preamp, it just sounds better that way for some reason I can't fathom. Isn't the headphone output of something like  DAVE good enough for you? Seems like it is not. Again, I have had the same kind of experience and I am amazed by what a dedicated headphone amplifier can do.
> 
> What can we take away from this? DAVE owners might like to experiment with external headphone amplifiers and preamps. They might be pleasantly surprised and they may come to enjoy their DAVE even more.



Of course the bolded statement is a subjective valuation based on your experience and your own hearing, and as such I accept it. However, my own experience is the opposite: No matter which (headphone) amp I attached to the DAVE, the direct connection always sounded significantly better: clearer, cleaner, faster, livelier – more transparent.

Have you ever asked yourself what a _preamp_ switched between the DAVE and a power amp does to the signal? How could the DAVE's output be handicapped by «driving» a power amp's input instead of «driving» a preamp's input? In fact both are high-impedance inputs with comparable values – between 10 and 120 kΩ. So one can safely say that the difference in sound with the preamp in the chain represents a signal degradation, objectively speaking – a reduction of transparency. Since a completely transparent preamp would sound indistinguishable from the direct connection.

It's a widespread misconception that ultimate transparency and neutrality automatically sounds best. In many cases it just sounds too analytical and dry. Now it's not that transparency itself is bad – it just entails the property of being reveiling to tonal flaws in the chain. Which are even obligatory when you think of sound transducers with their amplitude responses deviating by 300% and more from a straight line. Ultimate transparency lacks the welcome masking effect guaranteed by subtle euphonic distortions delivered by audio electronics, particularly amplifiers – therefore Rob's saying: «Some people like harmonic distortion.» Actually it's more than «some».

My experience with the power of euphonic amplifier colorations extends to the year 2000 or so – and is reflected in a Head-Fi thread. Just so much: Despite the insight that even the (low-impedance!) line output of a DAC can provide objectively better sound with headphones, I decided to use a headphone amp then – for the reasons above. But since then I have found a tool to overcome the notorious tonal flaws of sound transducers and wouldn't want to go back from a signal path as direct as possible.


----------



## Hooster

Thanks for your replies. The point is that it is easy to fall for a dogmatic view such as the idea that a pure and simple signal path always beats on that has more components in it. 
It may be hard to "see" the point but if you have an open mind and the time and inclination you might hear it. You might be pleasantly surprised and you may find gains that you were not previously aware of. For me this hobby is about creating a system that gives me pleasure to listen to. I don't find something that is overly analytical particularly pleasant so that path is not for me. It is up to the individual.

To adrianm, by all means give the Woo Audio WA5 a try.


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## JaZZ (Sep 17, 2020)

Hooster said:


> Thanks for your replies. The point is that it is easy to fall for a dogmatic view such as the idea that a pure and simple signal path always beats on that has more components in it.
> It may be hard to "see" the point but if you have an open mind and the time and inclination you might hear it. You might be pleasantly surprised and you may find gains that you were not previously aware of. For me this hobby is about creating a system that gives me pleasure to listen to. I don't find something that is overly analytical particularly pleasant so that path is not for me. It is up to the individual.


Just in case the term «dogmatic» is directed at me:

Personally I find my approach the least dogmatic possible: Instead of just accepting that something sound like this and that when I attach this and that (and drawing wrong conclusions in the sense of «the device isn't good enough for this and that, despite the developer's promises») I experiment with my equipment and ask myself reasonable questions – which lead to answers that are perfectly satisfying for my demands and a wider world view. Note that it's not absolute neutrality that I chase myself, but a sound without flaws and as transparent and ear-friendly and musical as possible. Although finally it leads to a sound approaching the original – because every deviation sounds like flaws... and reduced transparency.



> To adrianm, by all means give the Woo Audio WA5 a try.



In my book that's a bad advice. A $6000 one-trick effect device? You'd be better off with a tube-amp emulator software, which would allow for much greater flexibility – and cost a fraction (if at all).


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## Hooster

JaZZ said:


> In my book that's a bad advice. A $6000 one-trick effect device? You'd be better off with a tube-amp emulator software, which would allow for much greater flexibility – and cost a fraction (if at all).



I am not telling him to buy it. I am suggesting that he try it. That does not have to cost anything.


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## JaZZ

Oh, that's a weak excuse – for an illogical (and dogmatic) recommendation.


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## edwardsean (Sep 18, 2020)

I've found myself, over time, on both sides of the amp/no amp war. I just don't think it is possible to add any external amp or preamp to Dave, no matter how good, without diminishing some of its spectacular transparency. One of Dave's key selling points for me is the unique way its outputs tap directly into the D/A pulse array. It's one of Dave's best features and I sympathize with anyone who insists on a direct connection to Dave whether using phones or speakers. I am one of them.

However...

if you are willing to sacrifice some measure of Dave's signature transparency there are indubitable other benefits of adding a headphone amp or preamp. This goes beyond the fact of the three popular headphones that need more driving power. This is another perennial, intractable debate, but, for me it became simple.

It's about the power supply.

The Dave uses a $44, off the shelf, switch mode supply. it's very good in the noise department and I simply marvel that it works as well as it does. But, it's a $44, off the shelf, switch mode supply. It's not a matter of whether it can properly drive certain phones. It really can. A Honda engine and an Audi engine can both hit 55MPH with proper power. It's a matter of the quality of power delivery, regulation, etc. that translates into better sound (transient response, soundstage, dynamics, and–ease). I don't see any way around the physics involved, at least at the current state of technology.

A great amp can make the Dave sound slightly nervous by comparison: transparent but twitchy. You glide along in a Viva Egoista or Wells Headtrip like being driven in a Bentley at any speed (or at least how I imagine being driven in a Bentley feels like). It's not a matter of harmonic distortion or a different signature coloration. It's a matter of having reserves of power on tap which the Dave simply doesn't possess. The Dave is world class DAC/amp, but next to a world-class dedicated amp, it can sound effort-ful.

The builders of these amps have taken great pains to accomplish this performance in cost and design: banks of Mundorf, Rubycon, Kaisei caps tied to massive custom wound transformers. if you met any one of these builders the words "superfluous snake oil" would not escape your lips, because these are not snake oil salesmen. They are brilliant engineers and passionate craftsman and if there was a way to ultimate SQ without great power they would've found it.

Now, if there were only a way to improve Dave's power supply without adding an external amp.... If only.... If only....

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/XP-Power/ECM40UT33?qs=w/v1CP2dgqqTy9sxbJZmnQ==


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## Ciggavelli (Sep 17, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> I've found myself, over time, on both sides of the amp/no amp war. I just don't think it is possible to add any external amp or preamp to Dave, no matter how good, without diminishing some of its spectacular transparency. One of Dave's key selling points for me is the unique way its outputs tap directly into the D/A pulse array. It's one of Dave's best features and I sympathize with anyone who insists on a direct connection to Dave whether using phones or speakers. I am one of them.
> 
> However...
> 
> ...


I think @Triode User changed his power supply too. I’m very interested in this. Over/under what level of know-how does one need to embark on this adventure?  Can you now use TCs and Susvaras out of the DAVE directly now?


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## edwardsean (Sep 18, 2020)

Ciggavelli said:


> I think @Triode User changed his power supply too.



@Triode User is why I have the retrofit power supply for Dave. I was looking at $3K power cables and Nick kindly broke into my search and suggested that if I'm going to spend that kind of money I would be better served by replacing the power supply. He was the first one to install a DC4 into his Dave. I have a DC3 which were designed first and is a step down. Even so, he could not have been more right.

Of course, like a true Headfioholic I ended up buying the $3K cable anyway, but replacing the power supply was definitely more significant, and among the most important components for a Dave system.

These power supplies are designed and made by Sean Jacobs in the UK. He is the one who designs the stellar power supplies for Innuos products. Demand has outstripped his capacity to make these supplies and I waited the summer for mine. Fortunately, he has partnered with an excellent builder in the U.S., Vassil, who will be shipped parts and make units to Sean's exact specifications.

You can find out more here on his website: https://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk

Sean tells me that a major audiophile website is going to be releasing a full article on the DC4 soon written by a well known audiophile.

I'm going to write up more of my experiences with Dave, buliding a system, the Sean Jacobs power supply, and also, the dCS Bartok. I don't mean to upset anyone, but I'm listening to a Bartok right now as I write this. Don't judge me.


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## edwardsean

Ciggavelli said:


> I’m very interested in this. Over/under what level of know-how does one need to embark on this adventure?  Can you now use TCs and Susvaras out of the DAVE directly now?



Replacing the power supply is simple, and can be done in minutes. You don't need any technical ability. You just need to carefully follow the instructions.

As for using power hungry phones. I don't know, as I've gone a different way. I would assume that it would make for a very different situation. As I mentioned though, the sound quality improvements are across the board for anything you plug into the Dave, and not primarily for the purpose of increasing drive for more demanding phones.


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## Ciggavelli

edwardsean said:


> Replacing the power supply is simple, and can be done in minutes. You don't need any technical ability. You just need to carefully follow the instructions.
> 
> As for using power hungry phones. I don't know, as I've gone a different way. I would assume that it would make for a very different situation. As I mentioned though, the sound quality improvements are across the board for anything you plug into the Dave, and not primarily for the purpose of increasing drive for more demanding phones.


Thanks for the info. I’m definitely going to look into replacing my power supply. I appreciate it!


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## Triode User

edwardsean said:


> @Triode User is why I have the retrofit power supply for Dave. I was looking at $3K power cables and Nick kindly broke into my search and suggested that if I'm going to spend that kind of money I would be better served by replacing the power supply. He was the first one to install a DC4 into his Dave. I have a DC3 which were designed first and is a step down. Even so, he could not have been more right.



It is nice when one sows the seed and then hears about the flower blossoming. 

The first experiment I did was to take the internal SMPS and put it in an external case connected to the Dave by an umbilical. That made a noticeable improvement in many areas but extra smoothness was the first thing I noticed. I was then very lucky to get a second hand full Sean DC3 for the Dave and was blown away. I would have been happy to stay with that and it was only really the rabbit hole syndrome and many conversations with Sean that led me even further astray to the point where I was able to get the first production DC4. I am still grinning every day when when I use my Dave with the DC4.


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## edwardsean

Triode User said:


> The first experiment I did was to take the internal SMPS and put it in an external case connected to the Dave by an umbilical. That made a noticeable improvement in many areas but extra smoothness was the first thing I noticed. I was then very lucky to get a second hand full Sean DC3 for the Dave and was blown away. I would have been happy to stay with that and it was only really the rabbit hole syndrome and many conversations with Sean that led me even further astray to the point where I was able to get the first production DC4. I am still grinning every day when when I use my Dave with the DC4.



Smoothness was the quality that jumped out at me too. Usually in audio "smoothness" comes at the cost of detail and clarity as everything gets "smoothed" over. Sean's mastery of the art is proven by the way he is able to achieve greater smoothness while bringing out–more–detail and clarity. I know the term "analog" is problematic, but I think it still speaks to many of us. The qualities found in the best "analog" gear: liquidity, density, flow, etc. are mated here with the Dave's signature digital talents of transparency and tonal complexity. The result is really something. 

The unit definitely needs time to burn in. There are some pretty good sized caps that will have to bake. I still remember the point at which the sound really began to open up and I  found myself saying, "Thanks Nick."


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## miketlse

Hooster said:


> I am not telling him to buy it. I am suggesting that he try it. That does not have to cost anything.


You are trying to absolve yourself of any responsibility if he then buys it.
As such, your statement has much the same logic as politicians proclaiming that people should carry guns, but adding the disclaimer 'I am not suggesting they use them'.


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## Jawed

iamoneagain said:


> So I just did a quick test with sources feeding into mscaler and then into the Dave. Using Poweradd battery on mscaler to eliminate RFI.
> 
> I put on what I knew was a harsh recording, Howard Jones album Dream into Action. With MacBook vocals were still harsh but rest of the music had weight. With the Link II the vocals are smoother and little more air around them. It had hint of increased soundstage. But overall made for a better listen. I was already satisfied with the MacBook Pro, any improvement was welcome.
> 
> Then went back to the Mac mini and difference were bigger. Vocals were harsh and there wasn’t as much weight. Not as immersive. Never liked using usb on this system and could only do it with HF on. Link II much better as mentioned above.


So I want to check this: in these tests you were using the battery powered HMS and heard substantial differences in sound quality from the three different sources you connected to HMS: Mac Mini, MacBook Pro and Link II.

That would imply that battery power for HMS is a complete waste of time.


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## adrianm

miketlse said:


> You are trying to absolve yourself of any responsibility if he then buys it.
> As such, your statement has much the same logic as politicians proclaiming that people should carry guns, but adding the disclaimer 'I am not suggesting they use them'.


I agree with the sentiment and appreciate you looking out for people. I try to do the same but it always ends up with people grabbing their pitchforks   I see no reason to audition something that costs as much as Dave just for a different flavor. Especially since my headphones are easy to drive from an Iphone. I specifically got Dave to use with my current headphones.
    I know i won't convince anyone here, but a lot of differences people keep proclaiming as being "huge" between cables, sources, etc are just completely overblown. It's subjective, sure, but when i listen to a track i like i enjoy it almost as much on my Airpods Pro as on my Dave and Z1R. Any delta smaller than that i wouldn't call "huge ".
   I think people should listen to stuff on systems costing 10-20x less than their current ones before claiming a 3k cable or 11k streamer makes "night and day differences " . 
  And i sincerely hope those people live in huge mansions and have everything else in their lives sorted out. 
   I, for one, still look for the value in things before purchasing them. My next big "audio" purchase is a new apartment where i can setup some bookshelf speakers to use with Dave and see what this whole "speaker listening-the final frontier " thing is about


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## iamoneagain (Sep 18, 2020)

Jawed said:


> So I want to check this: in these tests you were using the battery powered HMS and heard substantial differences in sound quality from the three different sources you connected to HMS: Mac Mini, MacBook Pro and Link II.
> 
> That would imply that battery power for HMS is a complete waste of time.



The battery eliminates the RFI from Mscaler power supply into the Dave. What this shows is the Mscaler’s galvanized usb does not eliminate all noise coming from the source. I assume the same would be true of the Dave itself. But I’m not the most technical so maybe there’s a different reason.

Also, I wouldn’t call it substantial between the MacBook Pro and the Link II. Subtle is more like it. But the Mac mini usb is not a good source.


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## Hooster

miketlse said:


> You are trying to absolve yourself of any responsibility if he then buys it.
> As such, your statement has much the same logic as politicians proclaiming that people should carry guns, but adding the disclaimer 'I am not suggesting they use them'.



Why all this hysteria? I could give two hoots what he buys. If you are having some kind of issue with people suggesting that experimenting is good and dogmatic views are not so great, then just come out and say it.


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## Hooster

adrianm said:


> I, for one, still look for the value in things before purchasing them. My next big "audio" purchase is a new apartment where i can setup some bookshelf speakers to use with Dave and see what this whole "speaker listening-the final frontier " thing is about



Then do yourself a favor and at least try what a good pre/power amplifier can do.


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## adrianm

Hooster said:


> Then do yourself a favor and at least try what a good pre/power amplifier can do.


Will do at that point , most stuff ended up in disappointment up untill now though


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## miketlse

Hooster said:


> Why all this hysteria? I could give two hoots what he buys. If you are having some kind of issue with people suggesting that experimenting is good and dogmatic views are not so great, then just come out and say it.


You are misunderstanding the term hysteria!
I have no problem with people flagging up failures with Chord products, that were due to Chord failings.
I learnt a lot from the Poly issues by reading views such as Bill Gates 'a companies greatest asset, are its most vocal critics'.
So i have no problem with posters flagging up genuine issues due to Chord.

However i draw the line at posters blaming Chord for issues outside their control, such as enabling software updates with code for which Chord does not own the IPR.

In a similar frame of mind, there are a group of posters who recently rushed to blame Chord for a set of restrictions that Roon introduced.
Those posters should use google to read posts about Uber - the theme is Uber welcomed drivers when Uber needed to demonstate growth in potential future business turnover.
Now that Uber feels that it is big enough, it is trying to disown some drivers.
The parallels are clear enough.


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## number1sixerfan (Sep 18, 2020)

I've been purposely avoiding commenting in this thread, as I fully believe in being patient and letting the initial 'Christmas present' shock factor wear off before making assessments/impressions. In any event, I'm definitely enjoying the Dave greatly. Again, should be posting something in the future with more detail.

Just chiming in on the recent conversation regarding amps. I took a few nights to test all of my headphones directly from Dave vs. Dave + the WA33.. and with every single headphone I prefer it with the Dave + WA33. Even with the Utopia and VCs. Sound is more full bodied, with all of the same clarity/detail. I'd really need to spend more time to provide a more in-depth analysis but I'm not sure it'll happen as I've just happily defaulted to the pairing.

The difference isn't astronomical by any means and if I didn't have the TC/Susvara, I'd probably part with the WA33 and just keep one unit (makes sense and saves money). But yea, I just can't agree with a blanket statement of another amp in the chain ruining or lessening the experience. I'd have to agree with other posters and say experiment with high end (or highly capable) amps and decide for yourself and your system and preferences.


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## Ciggavelli

number1sixerfan said:


> I've been purposely avoiding commenting in this thread, as I fully believe in being patient and letting the initial 'Christmas present' shock factor wear off before making assessments/impressions. In any event, I'm definitely enjoying the Dave greatly. Again, should be posting something in the future with more detail.
> 
> Just chiming in on the recent conversation regarding amps. I took a few nights to test all of my headphones directly from Dave vs. Dave + the WA33.. and with every single headphone I prefer it with the Dave + WA33. Even with the Utopia and VCs. Sound is more full bodied, with all of the same clarity/detail. I'd really need to spend more time to provide a more in-depth analysis but I'm not sure it'll happen as I've just happily defaulted to the pairing.
> 
> The difference isn't astronomical by any means and if I didn't have the TC/Susvara, I'd probably part with the WA33 and just keep one unit (makes sense and saves money). But yea, I just can't agree with a blanket statement of another amp in the chain ruining or lessening the experience. I'd have to agree with other posters and say experiment with high end (or highly capable) amps and decide for yourself and your system and preferences.


Ditto. I have the exact same setup.  The wa33 probably doesn’t measure as well as the DAVE by itself, but I don’t care; it sounds better. One can’t always rely on measurements to dictate sound quality. Some things you just can’t measure properly (at least not yet)


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## jlbrach

if I was to listen to say the utopia or lcd-4z or other easy to drive HP's then the dave alone is excellent...if one owns the more difficult to drive HP's there really is no choice you need the added amp...you cannot listen to the susvara without the amp and the abyss tc is a stretch at best the lcd-4 on the borderline


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## Hooster

Ciggavelli said:


> Ditto. I have the exact same setup.  The wa33 probably doesn’t measure as well as the DAVE by itself, but I don’t care;* it sounds better*. One can’t always rely on measurements to dictate sound quality. Some things you just can’t measure properly (at least not yet)



Thank you, and some others who have chosen to share some real experiences. It is much appreciated.


----------



## Hooster

JaZZ said:


> In my book that's a bad advice. A $6000 one-trick effect device? You'd be better off with a tube-amp emulator software, which would allow for much greater flexibility – and cost a fraction (if at all).



Are you serious, or is this just unsophisticated trolling?


----------



## JaZZ

edwardsean said:


> I've found myself, over time, on both sides of the amp/no amp war. I just don't think it is possible to add any external amp or preamp to Dave, no matter how good, without diminishing some of its spectacular transparency. One of Dave's key selling points for me is the unique way its outputs tap directly into the D/A pulse array. It's one of Dave's best features and I sympathize with anyone who insists on a direct connection to Dave whether using phones or speakers. I am one of them.
> 
> However...
> 
> ...



It's a fascinating topic – another audio mystery gaining popularity with no resolution in sight: What does the aftermarket power supply do with the DAVE's output signal? As someone without experience with the matter I can only rely on the posters here, and although I respect their opinion and their proficiency, it's my habit to only firmly believe the reported results when I have heard them myself. However, I'm absolutely ready to get convinced. The other part of me is slightly frustrated about the fact that my beloved HMS/DAVE combo doesn't seem to work out its full potential. That said, I'm 99% sure that I won't jump on this bandwagon. The main reason is that I'm fully satisfied with my system, the other one the expected effort for the PS change. Plus some more equipment lying around. And some more money to spend.

Now to the sonic improvement: _Nick_ (Triode User), the DPRSP (Dave Power-Supply Replacement Pioneer), was the first to report it, with the DAVE working in his speaker setup – hence with an attached power amp. You _(edwardsean)_ confirm his experience, reporting better sound from DAVE driving headphones, making the «need» for an extra headphone amp superfluous. Both scenarios viewed together make me scratch my head: It seems the improvement isn't (output) power related. So far, so good. But what part does/did the headphone amp play in your case, Edward? What sort of signal improvement (!/?) does it bring to the table? That's where my skeptical speculation sets in: It could be the well-known forgivingness and euphonization (e.g. added fullness and «authority») masking tonal flaws in the chain – in this case the DAVE's less than perfectly clean power supply shining through.

The problem is that no one else on Head-Fi tries to use sound transducers/headphones with extremely flat amplitude responses from 20 Hz to 20 kHz (in other words equalized to fulfill this criterion) for judging audio electronics equipment. That's why every single review about single components has to be taken with a grain of salt – especially when it comes to external amps for Chord DAC/amp combos. It's so easy to get fooled into thinking a coloring amplifier does the better job than the direct connection if the headphone in question benefits from a bit of phatness and warmth masking the low-frequency roll-off, just to mention one possible scenario.




number1sixerfan said:


> I've been purposely avoiding commenting in this thread, as I fully believe in being patient and letting the initial 'Christmas present' shock factor wear off before making assessments/impressions. In any event, I'm definitely enjoying the Dave greatly. Again, should be posting something in the future with more detail.
> 
> Just chiming in on the recent conversation regarding amps. I took a few nights to test all of my headphones directly from Dave vs. Dave + the WA33.. and with every single headphone I prefer it with the Dave + WA33. Even with the Utopia and VCs. Sound is more full bodied, with all of the same clarity/detail. I'd really need to spend more time to provide a more in-depth analysis but I'm not sure it'll happen as I've just happily defaulted to the pairing.
> 
> The difference isn't astronomical by any means and if I didn't have the TC/Susvara, I'd probably part with the WA33 and just keep one unit (makes sense and saves money). But yea, I just can't agree with a blanket statement of another amp in the chain ruining or lessening the experience. I'd have to agree with other posters and say experiment with high end (or highly capable) amps and decide for yourself and your system and preferences.



Just in case: I never said it's impossible to enjoy the DAVE with external amps; it will still sound excellent. But you can do better. It's very possible that you're a victim of above scenario (last paragraph/sentence).



Ciggavelli said:


> Ditto. I have the exact same setup. The wa33 probably doesn’t measure as well as the DAVE by itself, but I don’t care; it sounds better. One can’t always rely on measurements to dictate sound quality. Some things you just can’t measure properly (at least not yet).



Have you ever tried to do the comparison with a perfectly equalized headphone?


----------



## JaZZ

Hooster said:


> Thank you, and some others who have chosen to share some real experiences. It is much appreciated.



Just in case: My approach is based on quite a bit of listening experience. Unfortunately – with my sonic ideal – I haven't met a headphone amp that offers any improvement, and be it just in one sonic criterion, compared to the direct connection to the DAVE. You may know that my approach is a bit unique around here, as I equalize my headphones to as flat as possible (to my ears).



Hooster said:


> Are you serious, or is this just unsophisticated trolling?



Yes, that's an absolutely serious recommendation – and not for the first time. It would be a logical alternative especially for your preamp, which technically definitely serves no other purpose than coloring the signal. Of course for someone interested in an ultimate solution I would suggest careful equalizing instead.


----------



## adrianm

number1sixerfan said:


> I've been purposely avoiding commenting in this thread, as I fully believe in being patient and letting the initial 'Christmas present' shock factor wear off before making assessments/impressions. In any event, I'm definitely enjoying the Dave greatly. Again, should be posting something in the future with more detail.
> 
> Just chiming in on the recent conversation regarding amps. I took a few nights to test all of my headphones directly from Dave vs. Dave + the WA33.. and with every single headphone I prefer it with the Dave + WA33. Even with the Utopia and VCs. Sound is more full bodied, with all of the same clarity/detail. I'd really need to spend more time to provide a more in-depth analysis but I'm not sure it'll happen as I've just happily defaulted to the pairing.
> 
> The difference isn't astronomical by any means and if I didn't have the TC/Susvara, I'd probably part with the WA33 and just keep one unit (makes sense and saves money). But yea, I just can't agree with a blanket statement of another amp in the chain ruining or lessening the experience. I'd have to agree with other posters and say experiment with high end (or highly capable) amps and decide for yourself and your system and preferences.


It makes sense you would prefer the WA33 since that's what you're accustomed to. I know more than one person that have found expensive amps (some Riviera people are always recommending with the Abyss ) to make little to no difference to their ears even with the Abyss, Susvara and LCD-4's (non Z). 
    I'm not really buying into this either and my dealer seemed to agree there was little point to even try out the Woo amps he was also selling with Dave and my headphones.


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## number1sixerfan (Sep 18, 2020)

JaZZ said:


> Just in case: I never said it's impossible to enjoy the DAVE with external amps; it will still sound excellent. But you can do better. It's very possible that you're a victim of above scenario (last paragraph/sentence).



I'm literally sharing exactly what I hear, as an experienced user and somehow I can do better and I'm a victim lol. I'm sorry but post these are a big reason I left the hobby in the first place. It's also one reason I almost never bought a TT2 or Dave in the first place.. the ridiculous (fanboy and close minded) posts and perspectives by many in this thread and countless other Chord threads are extremely off-putting. And you can see right through them, I don't get how the posters don't get that.



adrianm said:


> It makes sense you would prefer the WA33 since that's what you're accustomed to. I know more than one person that have found expensive amps (some Riviera people are always recommending with the Abyss ) to make little to no difference to their ears even with the Abyss, Susvara and LCD-4's (non Z).
> I'm not really buying into this either and my dealer seemed to agree there was little point to even try out the Woo amps he was also selling with Dave and my headphones.



I have several amps outside of the WA33, and an entirely separate electrostat rig that I'm also using with it.. and not to mention countless years in the hobby with countless amps, that's not it. Again as I said the headphone out of the Dave is enjoyable, very much so. And lastly, anyone that says that an amp that can appropriately power the Abyss or Susvara makes little to no difference is either purposely lying to you or doing so out of bias, and that's objectively speaking. (There's literally MULTIPLE people in this thread that just agreed. Clearly we are all lost and misguided lol)

I think the major issue here is that for whatever reason people want to cling to their notion of an absolute path/chain that is BEST... and often their perspective is extremely biased (the savings of not having to buy another amp, the money they've invested and need to justify a product as king, FOMO, etc etc. list goes on). Do that as you may, I'm not forcing anything on anyone. Again, try the Dave with and without and stick to what you enjoy. Simple.


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## Ciggavelli (Sep 18, 2020)

JaZZ said:


> It's a fascinating topic – another audio mystery gaining popularity with no resolution in sight: What does the aftermarket power supply do with the DAVE's output signal? As someone without experience with the matter I can only rely on the posters here, and although I respect their opinion and their proficiency, it's my habit to only firmly believe the reported results when I have heard them myself. However, I'm absolutely ready to get convinced. The other part of me is slightly frustrated about the fact that my beloved HMS/DAVE combo doesn't seem to work out its full potential. That said, I'm 99% sure that I won't jump on this bandwagon. The main reason is that I'm fully satisfied with my system, the other one the expected effort for the PS change. Plus some more equipment lying around. And some more money to spend.
> 
> Now to the sonic improvement: _Nick_ (Triode User), the DPRSP (Dave Power-Supply Replacement Pioneer), was the first to report it, with the DAVE working in his speaker setup – hence with an attached power amp. You _(edwardsean)_ confirm his experience, reporting better sound from DAVE driving headphones, making the «need» for an extra headphone amp superfluous. Both scenarios viewed together make me scratch my head: It seems the improvement isn't (output) power related. So far, so good. But what part does/did the headphone amp play in your case, Edward? What sort of signal improvement (!/?) does it bring to the table? That's where my skeptical speculation sets in: It could be the well-known forgivingness and euphonization (e.g. added fullness and «authority») masking tonal flaws in the chain – in this case the DAVE's less than perfectly clean power supply shining through.
> 
> ...


Explain to me what you mean by perfectly equalized headphone. Are you saying EQing in Roon?  I actually have the LCD-4z and ZMF VCs that I can EQ and test. My TCs and Susvaras can’t be properly driven out of the DAVE, unfortunately


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## Ciggavelli (Sep 18, 2020)

number1sixerfan said:


> I'm literally sharing exactly what I hear, as an experienced user and somehow I can do better and I'm a victim lol. I'm sorry but post these are a big reason I left the hobby in the first place. It's also one reason I almost never bought a TT2 or Dave in the first place.. the ridiculous (fanboy and close minded) posts and perspectives by many in this thread and countless other Chord threads are extremely off-putting. And you can see right through them, I don't get how the posters don't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What’s infuriating is that posters continuously say X and Y don’t matter, but they’ve never even listened to it themselves!  Further, they make these claims using mid-tier headphones like the Sony MDR Z1R.

To some extent, I think they may be trolling.


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## koven

Ciggavelli said:


> To some extent, I think they may be trolling.



They're trolling to the same extent Jehovah's Witnesses are 'trolling'. May seem like trolling at first then you realize they're dead serious. Scary.


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## number1sixerfan (Sep 18, 2020)

Ciggavelli said:


> What’s infuriating is that posters continuously say X and Y don’t matter, but they’ve never even listened to it themselves!  Further, they make these claims using mid-tier headphones like the Sony MDR Z1R.
> 
> To some extent, I think they may be trolling.



I'm definitely ok with people hearing what they hear and landing on what they land on, but yea the strong points of view without having listened themselves does get really frustrating. And the bias on top of that and it just gets out of hand lol

Again, I want to reiterate that although I prefer the WA33+Dave with each headphone, I said I'd even sale the Woo in favor of the Dave with the right group of headphones. It's definitely really, really good and money wise would be a no brainer.


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## Hooster

number1sixerfan said:


> I'm literally sharing exactly what I hear, as an experienced user and somehow I can do better and I'm a victim lol. I'm sorry but post these are a big reason I left the hobby in the first place.



It is a strange world we live in where people who have spend time and money to achieve the setup that gives them satisfaction are labeled as being "victims" because their approach is not in accordance with the views of some person. To me the only "victims" are the people who tie themselves up in the knots of their own preconceptions to the extent that they are not even willing to experiment. To some experimenting could only have 3 possible outcomes and all of them are negative.

1. It sounds better. Bad because it shows that they have been wrong all along.
2. It sounds the same. Bad because it was a waste of time.
3. It sounds worse. Also bad because it was a waste of time.

No wonder you left the "hobby".


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## JaZZ (Sep 19, 2020)

Ciggavelli said:


> Explain to me what you mean by perfectly equalized headphone. Are you saying EQing in Roon?  I actually have the LCD-4z and ZMF VCs that I can EQ and test. My TCs and Susvaras can’t be properly driven out of the DAVE, unfortunately.



What is there to explain? The goal is to have (or at least get passably close to) an absolutely neutral «monitoring» instrument for judging the neutrality of the tested electronics components – a logical and comprehensible requirement. Which is sadly never respected. So use a good equalizer, be it Roon or Neutron like me.



number1sixerfan said:


> I'm literally sharing exactly what I hear, as an experienced user and somehow I can do better and I'm a victim lol. I'm sorry but post these are a big reason I left the hobby in the first place. It's also one reason I almost never bought a TT2 or Dave in the first place.. the ridiculous (fanboy and close minded) posts and perspectives by many in this thread and countless other Chord threads are extremely off-putting. And you can see right through them, I don't get how the posters don't get that.



I never thought that the term «victim» would be conceived like this. What I meant is that the improvement in your perception (that I don't doubt) possibly isn't the result of higher signal quality, but a coloration forming a welcome synergy with the tonal traits of your headphone(s). That's why I insist in equalizing the notoriously uneven amplitude responses of sound transducers (well, for my own demands, but also for arguing about the unbiased judgment of audio components), otherwise you can easily be entrapped by artificial euphony masking tonal shortcomings. ("Some people like harmonic distortion» – RW.) Personally I even adjust the EQ presets for my headphones individually fo the respective electronics components they're attached to.

I'm astonished how people here can lightheartedly ignore one of the most important hi-fi criteria.

If they wouldn't, they could open themselves a new perspective on the real-world function of amplifiers, as I see it. Note: from own listening experience and experimenting, not ideology.



Hooster said:


> It is a strange world we live in where people who have spend time and money to achieve the setup that gives them satisfaction are labeled as being "victims" because their approach is not in accordance with the views of some person. To me the only "victims" are the people who tie themselves up in the knots of their own preconceptions to the extent that they are not even willing to experiment. To some experimenting could only have 3 possible outcomes and all of them are negative.
> 
> 1. It sounds better. Bad because it shows that they have been wrong all along.
> 2. It sounds the same. Bad because it was a waste of time.
> ...



See above!


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## ubs28

I personally will not use a headphone if it requires an external amplifier. So far, I have not encountered a headphone that needs one (except for the SR-009 for obvious reasons).

The reason is that is adds additional distortion.

I am still curious about the Abyss since there is so much hype around this headphone. But I most likely will never buy it unless they create a version that works with the Chord Dave without an amplifier.


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## Ciggavelli

JaZZ said:


> What is there to explain? The goal is to have (or at least get passably close to) an absolutely neutral «monitoring» instrument for judging the neutrality of the tested electronics components – a logical and comprehensible requirement. Which is sadly never respected. So use a good equalizer, be it Roon or Neutron like me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...








Whoa calm down man. Just asking a question.


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## JaZZ

Sorry! It's hard to discriminate between attacks/criticism and unbiased interest.


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## adrianm

Ciggavelli said:


> What’s infuriating is that posters continuously say X and Y don’t matter, but they’ve never even listened to it themselves!  Further, they make these claims using mid-tier headphones like the Sony MDR Z1R.
> 
> To some extent, I think they may be trolling.


    Always the last refuge of the audiophile when someone doesn't agree with snake oil claims. "Your gear isn't revealing enough ". 
    Sometimes practicality calls for closed backs  . Mid tier compared to what? Made in the back of a garage ZMF's? Audeze with massive reliability issues? The rest of the world doesn't have the "Made in 'Murica"  fetish .
   I, and a number of others, consider the  Z1R top tier, regardless of the hate they got after Tyll's review and have no desire for dead neutral headphones, uncomfortable torture device looking transducers or other experiments. 
    At least i get my  desired coloration more efficiently than buying neutral gear , introducing 20k worth of distortion and being in denial about it.



Hooster said:


> No wonder you left the "hobby".


The hobby isn't the problem as much as people on forums constantly telling you you need to buy this and that. Even if i did get Utopias (which by all reviews i'm 99% sure i won't like) or whatever is deemed "good enough " by the forum elders , i'd still "need" another amp (though they don't) or another source (though i'm not even bothering testing that anymore, wasted enough time).
  Sad reality is, it boils down to the fact that people who bought into every flavour of the month item and myth need to feel like they're getting more because they spent more. Which i have no problem with, some people obviously need this in their lives.
 The annoying part is they're constantly trying to convince every one else. Yes, some stuff does make some difference, but they are vastly exaggerated in an effort to justify the expense by people who are already "all in" . 
  They'd rather believe guys like Jay Luong plugging cables in and out all day like some trained monkey than Robb when explaining how Dave works and what makes and doesn't make a difference .


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## saudio7

I agree with @JaZZ it is difficult to find amp which will improve sound of direct Dave, I have checked few like iCAN, Cayin etc. finaly I found one which is good Niimbus US 4+, with Niimbus I hear only improvements, not like with other amps some things better, but at the cost of loosing transparency etc.


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## TheAttorney

edwardsean said:


> I'm going to write up more of my experiences with Dave, buliding a system, the Sean Jacobs power supply, and also, the dCS Bartok. I don't mean to upset anyone, but I'm listening to a Bartok right now as I write this. Don't judge me.



I'm sure I'm not the only one who is interested in this comparison. Particularly your thoughts on how Dave compares to Bartok before and after the SJ power supply is added.


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## mbj666

Quite a long thread 

I would say always test and experiment 

I personally will be running my dave into my naim 282 pre-amp using a sarum t cable as I preferred the sound as gave more open and expansive sound stage 

Tried dave into my power amp but preferred it into the pre every time I tried it (unfortunately for my wallet) 

Direct to speakers never an option as not enough oomf to drive them for drive my kudos s20s at the volume I like 

Have a number of other naim users who run dave both ways direct to power amps or Into pre 

So I would say no wrong answer just personal preference


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## Articnoise

ubs28 said:


> I personally will not use a headphone if it requires an external amplifier. So far, I have not encountered a headphone that needs one (except for the SR-009 for obvious reasons).
> 
> The reason is that is adds additional distortion.
> 
> I am still curious about the Abyss since there is so much hype around this headphone. But I most likely will never buy it unless they create a version that works with the Chord Dave without an amplifier.



Almost everyone like a bit of properly done distortion and many tests shows that this is the case. I’m dead serious, almost everybody prefer some nice added distortion and not only from tubes. Hard core Audiophiles included. The problem is that only some types and forms of distortion makes the music sound “better” and more lifelike. The problem is that the amps that does that best, also cost more than the ones with next to no distortion.

Just so you or anyone else wont mistakes what am talking about, am talking about very low amount of distortion, which is more or less impossible to hear but shows if you measure.


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## iamoneagain

Seems like this thread took a turn. I truly believe anyone making suggestions are trying to be helpful and not forcing anyone to do it their way. It comes from a place of passion for the hobby.

I’m sure these upgrades made real improvements based on what they are looking to get out of their system. However, we all have different objectives and if you are looking for the most transparent system, then probably adding more is not right for you. But some don’t find the most transparent to be the most musical. The great thing is we can all built our systems to our liking based on budget and preferences.

I do think we shouldn’t shouldn’t make judgments until we’ve tried with our own ears. And even if we come to different conclusion, doesn’t mean the other person is wrong. You have to still factor all the equipment and personal preferences. Even listening to the same exact setup can have different outcomes just based on individual hearing. Same headphone could be bright for one person and not for the other.

Hopefully we can keep this fun and learn from each other.


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## Jawed

mbj666 said:


> I personally will be running my dave into my naim 282 pre-amp using a sarum t cable as I preferred the sound as gave more open and expansive sound stage
> 
> Tried dave into my power amp but preferred it into the pre every time I tried it (unfortunately for my wallet)


Chord's Etude power amp is the same size as DAVE and its 75W per channel will take care of most speakers. At about £4000, your wallet will gain many many pounds  Your listening/living room will gain much space


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## JTbbb

I have also gone down the route of a separate headphone amplifier to go with my DAVE, but I wouldn’t necessarily say it was for bettering the SQ direct out of DAVE, aesthetics and fiddling with things in the future also played a part! My headphone collection doesn’t encompass any that cost multiple thousands but are otherwise the top players from Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic and Oppo. Anyway’s, I have always hankered for a Tube Amplifier and have ended up with the Feliks Euforia AE. 
Now for sure the Feliks hasn’t bettered DAVE, I didn’t expect it to, but to my ears nor has it taken anything away regarding transparency, soundstage etc. What it has done though is ever so slightly softened/smoothed the sound, which I am rather enjoying and is certainly helpful with the brasher sounding cd’s that I have. So, here I am, I thoroughly enjoy listening to music direct from DAVE and Feliks, as the mood takes me, Feliks looks fantastic and in the future I can amuse myself fiddling with some tube rolling! 
Happy music listening!


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## jlbrach

simply put the dave on its own is best if you have efficient HP's..if you own the harder to drive TOTL HP's you have no choice but to use an amp...


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## iamoneagain (Sep 19, 2020)

jlbrach said:


> simply put the dave on its own is best if you have efficient HP's..if you own the harder to drive TOTL HP's you have no choice but to use an amp...



Isn’t Chord supposed to come out digital amps at some point? I’m a little confused on how it will work but think you can take Dave’s output directly into it without any loss and get more power like the Hugo TT2 has for headphones and will also have enough power to drive speakers. But then wasn’t sure the Dave would even be needed if can just connect directly to the mscaler.

Wondering is any of these complaints about the Dave and headphones is all about power vs any distortion amps may add. The Hugo 2 is supposed to have enough power to drive the Utopia’s but I don’t think it was to it’s full potential. The Dave does a much better job giving a full sound. But people are saying with an additional amp they can sound even fuller.

Think this is why people were hoping for a new Dave. To have the resolution of the Dave but the power of the TT2 (if not more) and not need an additional amp. My thinking is the new digital amp solve the wait for some.


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## Hooster

saudio7 said:


> I agree with @JaZZ it is difficult to find amp which will improve sound of direct Dave, I have checked few like iCAN, Cayin etc. finaly I found one which is good Niimbus US 4+, *with Niimbus I hear only improvements*, not like with other amps some things better, but at the cost of loosing transparency etc.



Great tip, thanks for that. The Niimbus sounds like an excellent alternative for those who do not want tube amplifiers.


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## number1sixerfan

JaZZ said:


> Just in case: I never said it's impossible to enjoy the DAVE with external amps; it will still sound excellent. But you can do better. It's very possible that you're a victim of above scenario (last paragraph/sentence).



I entirely understood what you were insinuating. The issue here is that not only do you believe that an exact sound is superior and absolutely best (which anyone that’s been here long enough can tell you that there is no such thing), you’re projecting it towards an entire community and deeming someone as a victim or as having inferior tastes simply because it differs from YOUR absolute belief. We can argue absolute transparency over body/musicality all day; any defining of ‘best’ is purely subjective.

I’ve not detected any discernible amount of loss in transparency, nor any great degree of coloring of the sound you continue to reference. But be that as it may, I’m not refuting that loss could be possible and if transparency is your end all be all of ideal/perfect sound, so be it. That’s your right. It’s the projecting as an absolute to others that’s an issue.



adrianm said:


> The hobby isn't the problem as much as people on forums constantly telling you you need to buy this and that. Even if i did get Utopias (which by all reviews i'm 99% sure i won't like) or whatever is deemed "good enough " by the forum elders , i'd still "need" another amp (though they don't) or another source (though i'm not even bothering testing that anymore, wasted enough time).
> Sad reality is, it boils down to the fact that people who bought into every flavour of the month item and myth need to feel like they're getting more because they spent more. Which i have no problem with, some people obviously need this in their lives.
> The annoying part is they're constantly trying to convince every one else. Yes, some stuff does make some difference, but they are vastly exaggerated in an effort to justify the expense by people who are already "all in" .
> They'd rather believe guys like Jay Luong plugging cables in and out all day like some trained monkey than Robb when explaining how Dave works and what makes and doesn't make a difference .



See this is the exact bias I was referring to in my prior post. So because you feel the need to reinforce and justify that your setup as is, is adequate or enough.. you’re willing to come online and discredit other’s perspectives that have actually TRIED the combo PERSONALLY while you have NOT. That’s your bias driving an entire opinion and point of view that you haven’t even validated… all because you don’t want there to be need to spend extra money.

Instead you can just choose to be happy with your setup as is and not try to convince yourself and others of an opinion that you haven’t even validated just to make yourself feel better. It’s stuff like this that hurts the integrity of the forums and opinions of users.

Likewise, I do also agree with the sentiment in this post here and know that opinions get exaggerated and try to point users in a direction of HAVING to purchase something else. However, that doesn’t justify posting an opinion or poking holes in others experiences when you haven’t even tried the equipment. Also, nobody forced anything down anyone’s throats, simply said if you want try it and find out for yourself.. which helps to mitigate the above issue mentioned of there being some sort of ‘right way’, which is easily disprovable through personal use.

But I'll try to let this be the last I comment on this, and no offense to either of you or anyone else. Just commenting on the pitfalls of the forum. (also, this happens in every hobby based online forum so it's no knock against head-fi either)


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## iamoneagain

I guess the fun has ended. I’m out of here.


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## adrianm

number1sixerfan said:


> I entirely understood what you were insinuating. The issue here is that not only do you believe that an exact sound is superior and absolutely best (which anyone that’s been here long enough can tell you that there is no such thing), you’re projecting it towards an entire community and deeming someone as a victim or as having inferior tastes simply because it differs from YOUR absolute belief. We can argue absolute transparency over body/musicality all day; any defining of ‘best’ is purely subjective.
> 
> I’ve not detected any discernible amount of loss in transparency, nor any great degree of coloring of the sound you continue to reference. But be that as it may, I’m not refuting that loss could be possible and if transparency is your end all be all of ideal/perfect sound, so be it. That’s your right. It’s the projecting as an absolute to others that’s an issue.
> 
> ...


You're just assuming i haven't tried a lot of the stuff i'm talking about based on what exactly?. I have tried streamers and cables and other popular suggestions and my conclusions are based on that. I didn't even buy Dave before i tested it out of a 30k Naim vs a Node2i to see this difference the streamer makes. With Stellias as well, not just my Z1R ,since people like to knock on them. If i thought it was true i would've just gone for the Bartok.
    Funny thing is even on the Bartok thread people suggested using it out of a different streamer since it would improve things. There's no end in sight.
    Why would i keep wasting my time testing things that have no scientific basis ? Like a 5k headphone amp for 32 ohm headphones. I struggle to find a single person that recommends it, not even the dealer who sells them. If you find a joy of use with a certain amp, hell even if you like turning the volume know more than on Dave that's fine by me, i've had my fair share of superficial purchases and i don't see much changing anytime soon. I just want to know what i'm getting beforehand. 
    I'd rather just listen to music already instead of endlessly testing stuff, but for some people it's obviously more about the gear.
    I have no problem spending more as long as i see an obvious benefit. If i have to "squint to see it" , it's probably placebo.
   The elitism on this thread is off the charts though. If people want to keep pushing that their 20-30k Dave setups sound significantly (or any) better than Dave and <Headphone of people's choice>  it's fine by me, us peasants will just have to endure with our "cheap" setups.


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## JaZZ (Sep 19, 2020)

number1sixerfan said:


> I entirely understood what you were insinuating. The issue here is that not only do you believe that an exact sound is superior and absolutely best (which anyone that’s been here long enough can tell you that there is no such thing), you’re projecting it towards an entire community and deeming someone as a victim or as having inferior tastes simply because it differs from YOUR absolute belief. We can argue absolute transparency over body/musicality all day; any defining of ‘best’ is purely subjective.
> 
> I’ve not detected any discernible amount of loss in transparency, nor any great degree of coloring of the sound you continue to reference. But be that as it may, I’m not refuting that loss could be possible and if transparency is your end all be all of ideal/perfect sound, so be it. That’s your right. It’s the projecting as an absolute to others that’s an issue.



Your interpretation of my intentions and my «ideology» couldn't be more wrong.

While I do think an exact reproduction of the original is the absolute best for the full musical enjoyment, the technical limitations on the way to this ideal are the real challenge. And apart from the limited accuracy of the components there are also the individual expectations/sonic ideals from the listeners, the individual ear shapes/HRTF, the individual sensitivies towards the different characteristics of the tonal flaws... There is no single right sound/tonal balance for all individuals. So there's a bunch of right tonal balances for headphone systems. I'm a convinced proponent of shaping the sound of your gear to your needs and your liking (whatever it looks like) – and a poster child of someone doing so: I use my own crossfeed, because I can't stand the bass emphasis that's combined with Rob's otherwise good implementation (also, I need it on the go). For this I have to modify every single recording, and while I'm at it, I also do some tonal corrections, mostly subtle ones. The times when I have relied on the «factory settings» of headphones and a matching synergy of the amplifiers are long gone: I can't live with the standard sound from sound transducers generally anymore, so extensive and careful equalizing is mandatory and allows me to choose the technically best electronics components instead of looking for tonal synergies – i.e. compensating tonal flaws. One of the most important criteria is the extension of the frequency extremes; the low-frequency extension provides the necessary «authority» that most people with your approach try to find in amplifiers with distinct «oomph», meant to mask the natural early drop-off (without really fixing it!). Of course every form of deviation from a straight line has to be fixed to get the optimal result – with a revealing, maximally transparent chain. The good news for amplifier advocates is that the inherent colorations (consisting of individual harmonic-distortion patterns) of their favorite objects are indeed able to mask those to a degree making them unobtrusive. The bad news is that there's no way an amplifier can do this without reducing transparency.

I guess you belong to those who appreciate the sound of Chord DACs – whose strength is an almost unrivalled transient accuracy, culminating in the M Scaler/DAVE combo, Rob's famous «timing» from his WTA filters. But like every audio component on the planet it can't guarantee an exact reproduction of the original's tonal balance. Even within the Chord familiy the differences are obvious. Add to this the even much higher deviations with sound transducers! Despite this conspicuity you and like-minded persons seem to think if a DAC like the DAVE can't produce the sound – the tonal balance – you want from your headphone(s), it isn't capable of driving them properly. It's like an automatism and a monomania. So if your sonic ideal isn't met, you don't try to create it via a tool that's meant for this purpose, instead it has to be an amplifier to do the trick. And not by means of what's effectively necessary, considering the headphones' measuring curve. You even sacrifice a lot of money for a «powerful» hardware effect device... with just one effect. Life could be so simple!  

Well, that's of course a little understatement, because equalizing a headphone takes a lot of patience and care, it's almost like a hobby itself. (This if you don't take the help from tools such as Sonarworks.) And you have to be aware that every component or cable change will call for sometimes still laborious adaptations. It's just that this is how to get the (objectively – and I say also subjectively) best out of your audio gear. And compared to an additional high-end amplifier you just have to invest a lot of your time, but barely any money. As I see it, that's certainly the culprit for its lack of popularity, since a lot of audio enthusiasts have dedicated their audiophile hearts to a consumeristic attitude, with chasing new gear as the summit of creativity within the hobby. – Sorry for the attack! Can we still be friends?

As you may (hopefully) have learnt now, I absolutely support individual ways to perform our common hobby. I just have to react to phrases like «you need an external amp to get the best out of the DAVE». In my experience the opposite is true (although there are exceptions, which have been mentioned). But you don't need my blessing to do whatever you like better instead, and be it the second-best approach, which may still be good enough for your demands.


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## number1sixerfan

adrianm said:


> The elitism on this thread is off the charts though. If people want to keep pushing that their 20-30k Dave setups sound significantly (or any) better than Dave and <Headphone of people's choice>  it's fine by me, us peasants will just have to endure with our "cheap" setups.





JaZZ said:


> I just have to react to phrases like «you need an external amp to get the best out of the DAVE». In my experience the opposite is true (although there are exceptions, which have been mentioned). But you don't need my blessing to do whatever you like better instead, and be it the second-best approach, which may still be good enough for your demands.



Literally nobody said either of these statements lol. Outside of the very few headphones that just need more power, not a single person in 5 pages has said 'you need an external amp to get the best out of dave' or that 'you need a 20-30k setup to get the best out of it'. Again, a lot of projection happening here. Happy listening though.


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## jlbrach

number1sixerfan said:


> Literally nobody said either of these statements lol. Outside of the very few headphones that just need more power, not a single person in 5 pages has said 'you need an external amp to get the best out of dave' or that 'you need a 20-30k setup to get the best out of it'. Again, a lot of projection happening here. Happy listening though.


spot on...nobody I know of says you need an amp if you have an efficient HP...on the other hand If you have a susvara you literally have no choice and an abyss tc is close to a must for an amp....the lcd-4 also perhaps otherwise the dave is fine on its own for almost everything else


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## JaZZ (Sep 19, 2020)

number1sixerfan said:


> Literally nobody said either of these statements lol. Outside of the very few headphones that just need more power, not a single person in 5 pages has said* 'you need an external amp to get the best out of dave'* or that 'you need a 20-30k setup to get the best out of it'. Again, a lot of projection happening here. Happy listening though.



Not literally and not yourself and not now; I just used this sentence to illustrate that I just use to react like this to posts advocating external amps with the DAVE as the best approach. In retrospective I must concede that you're not the ideal addressee for my rants and don't deserve to be put down by this, if you feel like this. The trigger for my overreaction has certainly been the insinuation of being closed-minded and a fanboy. In this context my use of the term «victim» was probably a bad choice, although it seemed to match what I tried to say.

Anyway, of course I stick with my approach and am convinced that it is the most open-minded – since I've also extensively tried the amplifier aproach and am definitely through with it. That's not to say I criticize others for choosing it, I just try to steer them towards a more «open-minded» attitude every now and then, when the forum activity calls for it.


----------



## Ciggavelli

To muddy the waters even further, the type of interconnect one uses between the DAVE and external amp greatly affects sound quality too, and may be why some don’t like external amps. I had a Danacables Sapphire Reference XLR interconnects in the past and liked the sound. I went 2 tiers up to the Diamond Reference, and I was amazed by the improvement in sound. Everything was smoother and the soundstage was “holographic” with lots of depth. I’m sure even more high end cables would improve the sound too.

So, basically, everything matters, and your system is only as good as the weakest link. To say external amps, streamers, servers or reclockers don’t matter is not enough.  The associated cables matter as well (power, interconnect, headphone, etc.).


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## JaZZ

Yes, cables are indeed an important tool for fine-tuning the sound, in my case Silver Dragons between the DAVE and my Stax amp do the trick. Still I feel that the need for the signal detour (including cables!) is what hampers the sound of my electrostatic headphones the most – apart from the driver principle itself. (I mean: If only the DAVE could drive electrostats!)


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## number1sixerfan

JaZZ said:


> Not literally and not yourself and not now; I just used this sentence to illustrate that I just use to react like this to posts advocating external amps with the DAVE as the best approach. In retrospective I must concede that you're not the ideal addressee for my rants and don't deserve to be put down by this, if you feel like this. The trigger for my overreaction has certainly been the insinuation of being closed-minded and a fanboy. In this context my use of the term «victim» was probably a bad choice, although it seemed to match what I tried to say.
> 
> Anyway, of course I stick with my approach and am convinced that it is the most open-minded – since I've also extensively tried the amplifier aproach and am definitely through with it. That's not to say I criticize others for choosing it, I just try to steer them towards a more «open-minded» attitude every now and then, when the forum activity calls for it.



Gotcha. I hear you and at times I've done the same. I do get that entirely and also appreciate the honesty. No real offense at all taken by the victim label or anything else and hopefully none your way from me either. It also sounds like you've done the discovery to find what you like best, which I think is awesome and respect.


----------



## Hooster (Sep 19, 2020)

adrianm said:


> The elitism on this thread is off the charts though.



What thread do you think you are in anyway? This is not some $100 dac/headphone amp combo we are talking about. It is perfectly natural to discuss ancillary components to use with DAVE. People who own a DAVE are not going to have an any problem spending a few thousands of $ on an amp, are they? You can hardly call it elitist, especially if these components are cheaper than a DAVE. You could call this entire thread elitist if you like, simply based on the price of a DAVE but we already know that.


----------



## Hooster

adrianm said:


> You're just assuming i haven't tried a lot of the stuff i'm talking about based on what exactly?. I have tried streamers and cables and other popular suggestions and my conclusions are based on that. I didn't even buy Dave before i tested it out of a 30k Naim vs a Node2i to see this difference the streamer makes. With Stellias as well, not just my Z1R ,since people like to knock on them. If i thought it was true i would've just gone for the Bartok.
> Funny thing is even on the Bartok thread people suggested using it out of a different streamer since it would improve things. There's no end in sight.
> Why would i keep wasting my time testing things that have no scientific basis ? Like a 5k headphone amp for 32 ohm headphones. I struggle to find a single person that recommends it, not even the dealer who sells them. If you find a joy of use with a certain amp, hell even if you like turning the volume know more than on Dave that's fine by me, i've had my fair share of superficial purchases and i don't see much changing anytime soon. I just want to know what i'm getting beforehand.



You try streamers and cables and you have now stopped doing that because "Why would i keep wasting my time testing things that have no scientific basis?" You want to know what you get beforehand but you won't waste your time testing things? Is there any real scientific basis for a claim that cable A sounds better than cable B or that streamer X sounds better than streamer Y? I would love to know, especially with respect to the cables. You could also say that there is no scientific basis for one well made dac sounding better than another. If you want audio science, then this is the place: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php

"Like a 5k headphone amp for 32 ohm headphones." So, are you saying that as long as the amp can drive the headphones nothing else matters? A $300 amp could easily drive 98% or so of the headphones on the market. Are you saying that spending more than that is a waste of money? Most people here will tell you that there is a lot more to an amp beyond the primitive ability of being able to drive a headphone to the level you listen at. I myself will say that based on my own experience. I normally listen at levels that my phone could drive my headphones to but I much prefer using an amp. Is there any scientific basis to this? Not that I am aware of, it just sounds better to me and that is what it all boils down to, does it not? 

Is there an "end in sight"? Absolutely not, you can move forward, backward and sideways but there is no end in sight. If there was we could all just pack up and go home. The party would be over.


----------



## Articnoise

Hooster said:


> You try streamers and cables and you have now stopped doing that because "Why would i keep wasting my time testing things that have no scientific basis?" You want to know what you get beforehand but you won't waste your time testing things? Is there any real scientific basis for a claim that cable A sounds better than cable B or that streamer X sounds better than streamer Y? I would love to know, especially with respect to the cables. You could also say that there is no scientific basis for one well made dac sounding better than another. If you want audio science, then this is the place: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php
> 
> "Like a 5k headphone amp for 32 ohm headphones." So, are you saying that as long as the amp can drive the headphones nothing else matters? A $300 amp could easily drive 98% or so of the headphones on the market. Are you saying that spending more than that is a waste of money? Most people here will tell you that there is a lot more to an amp beyond the primitive ability of being able to drive a headphone to the level you listen at. I myself will say that based on my own experience. I normally listen at levels that my phone could drive my headphones to but I much prefer using an amp. Is there any scientific basis to this? Not that I am aware of, it just sounds better to me and that is what it all boils down to, does it not?
> 
> Is there an "end in sight"? Absolutely not, you can move forward, backward and sideways but there is no end in sight. If there was we could all just pack up and go home. The party would be over.



You are spot on except the line about most people here on Summit-fi understand that its lot more to a good amp beyond the primitive ability of being able to drive a headphone to the high loudness. I read claims like "it can play at hear splitting volumes" or similar almost every day and that’s from people that been members for many years.


----------



## adrianm

Hooster said:


> You try streamers and cables and you have now stopped doing that because "Why would i keep wasting my time testing things that have no scientific basis?" You want to know what you get beforehand but you won't waste your time testing things? Is there any real scientific basis for a claim that cable A sounds better than cable B or that streamer X sounds better than streamer Y? I would love to know, especially with respect to the cables. You could also say that there is no scientific basis for one well made dac sounding better than another. If you want audio science, then this is the place: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php
> 
> "Like a 5k headphone amp for 32 ohm headphones." So, are you saying that as long as the amp can drive the headphones nothing else matters? A $300 amp could easily drive 98% or so of the headphones on the market. Are you saying that spending more than that is a waste of money? Most people here will tell you that there is a lot more to an amp beyond the primitive ability of being able to drive a headphone to the level you listen at. I myself will say that based on my own experience. I normally listen at levels that my phone could drive my headphones to but I much prefer using an amp. Is there any scientific basis to this? Not that I am aware of, it just sounds better to me and that is what it all boils down to, does it not?
> 
> Is there an "end in sight"? Absolutely not, you can move forward, backward and sideways but there is no end in sight. If there was we could all just pack up and go home. The party would be over.


I don't just mean volume, i mean driver control as well. I've been there as well, it's  worse than here, similar but opposing views. People who understand some of the science and draw superficial conclusions. For analogue cables the only thing i can think of is conductivity, for streamers say it's RF injection. With my old Sony Dac the source did make a  bigger difference using optical, Dave not so much. Tested them both side by side with the Naim and Node.
    Well i do want the party to be over. I'm just  interested in the forward. 
   Honestly the Mojo i've used for 3 years is so good that Hugo 2 and TT2, even with M-scaler weren't enough to convince me to upgrade, but Dave was such a different animal that price became almost irrelevant when i heard it. That's the magnitude of difference i'm looking for. Or at least something close, but it probably won't be around for a while.


----------



## Ciggavelli

adrianm said:


> I don't just mean volume, i mean driver control as well. I've been there as well, it's  worse than here, similar but opposing views. People who understand some of the science and draw superficial conclusions. For analogue cables the only thing i can think of is conductivity, for streamers say it's RF injection. With my old Sony Dac the source did make a  bigger difference using optical, Dave not so much. Tested them both side by side with the Naim and Node.
> Well i do want the party to be over. I'm just  interested in the forward.
> Honestly the Mojo i've used for 3 years is so good that Hugo 2 and TT2, even with M-scaler weren't enough to convince me to upgrade, but Dave was such a different animal that price became almost irrelevant when i heard it. That's the magnitude of difference i'm looking for. Or at least something close, but it probably won't be around for a while.


Next level exists, but it’s very out of reach for nearly everybody (myself included). I’m talking MSB Reference and Select Dacs, DcS Rossini and Vivaldi dacs, etc.  

One day I hope to be able to afford a Vilvali-level digital stack. But I need to win the lotto first...


----------



## adrianm

Ciggavelli said:


> Next level exists, but it’s very out of reach for nearly everybody (myself included). I’m talking MSB Reference and Select Dacs, DcS Rossini and Vivaldi dacs, etc.
> 
> One day I hope to be able to afford a Vilvali-level digital stack. But I need to win the lotto first...


Do you honestly think the delta is that audible with headphones?  Is the Bartok in that next level category?


----------



## Ciggavelli

adrianm said:


> Do you honestly think the delta is that audible with headphones?  Is the Bartok in that next level category?


Yes I think the delta can be that audible, but you need the right headphones. I know you probably think it’s nonsense and that I’m just saying you don’t have transparent enough headphones, but it’s kind of true. You aren’t going to hear as big of difference if your headphones aren’t up to  task....


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## adrianm (Sep 20, 2020)

Ciggavelli said:


> Yes I think the delta can be that audible, but you need the right headphones. I know you probably think it’s nonsense and that I’m just saying you don’t have transparent enough headphones, but it’s kind of true. You aren’t going to hear as big of difference if your headphones aren’t up to  task....


No, i'm sure you're right, i just said i consider the Z1R top tier for closed backs. The only other contenders would be Stellias which i found worse both in imaging and soundstage, not to mention the delta in the bass, which i love about the Z1R. That said i'm sure some TOTL open backs would be a huge step forward but i'm limited by the fact that i work from home with my gf and they would be too distracting for her. That said we're buying a new place next week but it will be around a year and a half before it's finalized.
    I'll look into some Final Audio D8k pro, Empyreans,  or whatever comes out by then.
     I suggested buying the apartment  right after i got Dave and she asked me  straight away if this was because i wanted open backs.


----------



## JohnFerrier

When sound is "fine-tuned" should I consider temperature, pressure, the direction of the wind?


----------



## JaZZ

JohnFerrier said:


> When sound is "fine-tuned" should I consider temperature, pressure, the direction of the wind?


Hi John. I know you from the Sound-Science forum.


----------



## JohnFerrier

JaZZ said:


> Hi John. I know you from the Sound-Science forum.



Hi JaZZ. Hope you are well !


----------



## Mikey99

adrianm said:


> No, i'm sure you're right, i just said i consider the Z1R top tier for closed backs. The only other contenders would be Stellias which i found worse both in imaging and soundstage, not to mention the delta in the bass, which i love about the Z1R. That said i'm sure some TOTL open backs would be a huge step forward but i'm limited by the fact that i work from home with my gf and they would be too distracting for her. That said we're buying a new place next week but it will be around a year and a half before it's finalized.
> I'll look into some Final Audio D8k pro, Empyreans,  or whatever comes out by then.
> I suggested buying the apartment  right after i got Dave and she asked me  straight away if this was because i wanted open backs.


I recently listened to the ZMF Verite Closed and Focal Stellia. To my ears the VC clearly bests the Stellia, and is the first closed-back headphone I have heard that competes with TOTL open backs. I ended up getting a pair. They work very nicely direct from the Dave as well, very enjoyable. The Dave/VC combo is getting a lot of head time, even compared to my Dave/AIC-10/AB1266 combo.


----------



## adrianm

Mikey99 said:


> I recently listened to the ZMF Verite Closed and Focal Stellia. To my ears the VC clearly bests the Stellia, and is the first closed-back headphone I have heard that competes with TOTL open backs. I ended up getting a pair. They work very nicely direct from the Dave as well, very enjoyable. The Dave/VC combo is getting a lot of head time, even compared to my Dave/AIC-10/AB1266 combo.


I have been tempted by ZMF's before but they look pretty heavy and uncomfortable. I'm not a fan of the looks and would usually steer clear of small companies since quality control is generally poor.
  That's good to hear though, i'll seriously consider a pair after the M-scaler if i get an itch to upgrade again.
   Problem is they're pretty expensive for some "home made " headphones and i'd have no place to audition or even order them at the moment.


----------



## MatW

In the headphone world, I would not consider ZMF a 'small company', but rather as one of the leaders. In terms of quality control and service, many 'larger' companies have a thing or two to learn from them.

They come warmly recommended, and I think 99% of ZMF customers would concur. Auditioning can be a problem indeed, but ordering is possible from the ZMF website.


----------



## adrianm

MatW said:


> In the headphone world, I would not consider ZMF a 'small company', but rather as one of the leaders. In terms of quality control and service, many 'larger' companies have a thing or two to learn from them.
> 
> They come warmly recommended, and I think 99% of ZMF customers would concur. Auditioning can be a problem indeed, but ordering is possible from the ZMF website.


  Problem is customs and vat would add around 55% to the retail price. I guess i could try to contact a dealer in Germany or the Uk at some point. I'll check the VC thread to see how it compares to the Z1R though.


----------



## adrianm

Well apparently this reviewer, a self proclaimed " Not a bass lover " that loves the Z1R as much as i ,do considers the Verite closed better than the Sonys.
   That does not bode well for my wallet. I guess the question is M-scaler first or the Verite? (If something better doesn't come along by then).


----------



## Mikey99

adrianm said:


> Problem is customs and vat would add around 55% to the retail price. I guess i could try to contact a dealer in Germany or the Uk at some point. I'll check the VC thread to see how it compares to the Z1R though.


If you are in Amsterdam you can listen to them at Headphone Auditions. They have a large selection of TOTL headphones and sources you can use for comparison. The price even with VAT is not much higher than the price in the US.


----------



## alxw0w

Mikey99 said:


> If you are in Amsterdam you can listen to them at Headphone Auditions. They have a large selection of TOTL headphones and sources you can use for comparison. The price even with VAT is not much higher than the price in the US.


Yup, Stefan is extremely helpful and trustworthy guy. I can fully recommend this shop


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## Mikey99

[


adrianm said:


> Well apparently this reviewer, a self proclaimed " Not a bass lover " that loves the Z1R as much as i ,do considers the Verite closed better than the Sonys.
> That does not bode well for my wallet. I guess the question is M-scaler first or the Verite? (If something better doesn't come along by then).


I have both, but hard to say as I have not heard the Z1R so don't know how much of a step-up there is from that to the VC, or how much it would benefit from the M-Scaler. You could audition the VC with and without the M-Scaler and compare to the Z1R (if you bring it with you, they do not currently carry Sony).


----------



## adrianm

Mikey99 said:


> [
> 
> I have both, but hard to say as I have not heard the Z1R so don't know how much of a step-up there is from that to the VC, or how much it would benefit from the M-Scaler. You could audition the VC with and without the M-Scaler and compare to the Z1R (if you bring it with you, they do not currently carry Sony).


Unfortunately i'm in Romania, no dealer here yet. Some other people have mentioned Stefan before though  . If it weren't for the whole Covid thing it would warrant a few days in Amsterdam, it was next on our "to visit" list anyway. It's definitely something to keep in mind for the future, thanks .


----------



## MatW

Definitely recommend Stefan in Amsterdam. If you happen to be in Germany, https://headphonecompany.com/ also carry ZMF.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Just thought I would share something with fellow Dave owners. 

I currently use an Earthing Block and I have found it to be worth the investment in terms of sound improvement. Anyway I had a spare RCA Phono connector earthing cable and I thought I would see if doubling my earthing on Dave made any difference. I use a single XLR earthing cable to connect Dave to my earthing block and I use analogue XLR outs to connect to my amp. So I connected the phono to my unused right channel and instantly heard a 'fuller' sound. More bass, more natural/real presentation. 'Hmme that was interesting I thought'. I left the cable in situ fora while enjoying my improved sound that was even noticeable from my Piano room/office down the hall. Then I pulled it out and to my surprise the sound didn't revert back! Did I imagine it perhaps? 

Closer scrutiny revealed that I was not imagining it at all. How was I so sure? 

Well closer scrutiny showed it had only affected the right channel I connected. The other channel was still 'bass light' by comparison. So I connected the left channel with the same earthing cable and sure enough now both were performing exactly the same. I later pulled it out and this channel did not revert back either.

So what is going on? 
I suspect, given that I already had an earthing line attached to Dave before trying this, that this was a static build-up problem and over time I guess it will probably build up again. I am therefore awaiting a second earthing cable and will keep both Dave Phono connections connected to my earthing block.

The difference was well worth having.


----------



## doraymon (Sep 22, 2020)

Do you have any suggestions for RCA to banana speaker cables to hook up the Dave to a pair of Omega Compact Alnico Monitors?

Edit: upon enquiring a big online cable reseller I got this worrying answer:
“ I would recommend strongly against plugging an 8 ohm speaker up to any line level output. (A line level output is designed to typically drive a 1K to 100K load)

At the least I suggest checking with Chord. I would bet that such use is likely to void the Chords warranty.”


----------



## adrianm

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Sorry O/T but perhaps relevant to many.
> 
> I think this MAT (Metamaterial Absorption Technology) could be quite a big deal for box loudspeaker manufacturers (and listeners). We may finally start to hear the full benefits of box speaker designs more akin to open drivers like electrostatics - without hearing the cabinet. Kef (who are based within a stones throw from Chord Electronics btw) already have an impressive coaxial design Tweeter/Mid system in their range and that unit is as flat as anything out there right now. If they add MAT to their Blade range I might just be a buyer.
> 
> ...


It's out  :


----------



## Christer

adrianm said:


> It's out  :



Or just stick with electrostatic or planars?
I am quite happy with the  clarity and lack of coloration from my electrostatic speakers. 
No box= no box colorations right?
Cheers CC


----------



## adrianm

Christer said:


> Or just stick with electrostatic or planars?
> I am quite happy with the  clarity and lack of coloration from my electrostatic speakers.
> No box= no box colorations right?
> Cheers CC


and no bass is one of the common complaints


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Sep 22, 2020)

I think Electrostatics have great speed and openness which I love but as pointed out their frequency response tends to fall off in the bottom register and the top register unfortunately.

I think companies like Kef should be congratulated in overcoming many transducer shortcomings over the years from coaxial (high/mid) drivers to dual-concentric bass drivers and state of the art flat-frequency response. The thing which pleases me the most though from that speaker review is a redesign of the tweeter in their coaxial which imo was too wide-dispersion on previous models (which included the Blade and Reference series) and lacked focus. I owned the previous Kef Reference series to the current one and that tweeter was far more focussed (and more to my taste).

Anyway I am sure many manufacturers will follow Kef's lead and MET is a welcome improvement for closed speaker arrays I think.

From Stereophile testing Quad 2912 Electrostatic





Stereophile Kef Blade 2 measurements




NOTE: Blade 2 bass response is achieved with just 5.5" speakers.


----------



## Christer (Sep 22, 2020)

adrianm said:


> and no bass is one of the common complaints


Correct, and  because of that I am guilty of a compromise.
I use MLs where deep  bass is handled by a conventional driver. But from as high as I can hear and quite a bit above according to specs, and down to about 200hz the rest of the spectrum is handled  very cleanly by the big  e panels.No crossover or box colourations between 23khz and down to about 250hz.
Deep bass is quite good too with  quite impressive Zarathustra or Bach organ 33hz bass.  But I can hear that the one and only crossover point between e panel and bass is not quite seamless. Unfortunately there aren't really any options that I have space for or could afford that can do the whole spectrum that I know of.
But 80-90 % of the music I  mainly listen to thrives with  the electrostatic magic of very fast transients, pinpoint location with little colouration of both instruments and voices. And very low distortion levels compared to most conventional drivers and a good stable and deep  soundstage.
Cheers CC


----------



## adrianm

I played around with Dave a bit today to see if the Isotek Sirius mains filter i'm using actually makes a difference for Dave as it did with my old dac. I had never heard Dave out of the wall before (except when auditioning).
   Granted, i have my desktop and like 8-9 other things plugged into the same extension chord as Dave so it's pretty much a worst case scenario, but the difference is pretty significant. Especially on the low end. Bass goes deeper and is more controlled.
      Highs seem to benefit a bit as well, but not as much as with my old Sony TA-ZH1ES.
   So Dave does fare with dirty power better than other dacs but it is definitely NOT immune.
   I've also swapped out my Lavricables Grand cable for the stock Z1R one after a month since switching and improvements are consistent as well, sound is a lot more "complete " , and "fuller"  across the spectrum and  with bass deeper still ( with these improvements it's just glorious how deep, controlled and impactful it is ) .Tested with Dave plugged into the filter. 
    Both the silver cable and the filter improve the sound about the same i'd say, but combined they make a drastic difference to the listening experience. I really think this is how the Z1R should be heard before judging it.
    Maybe all this tinkering pays off in the end ( around 1k euros for both, a lot, but not that crazy ), but i haven't had nearly the same kind of impact (if any ) from switching sources. 
  And any difference via usb was mitigated for the most part with a Jitterbug just as Rob claimed, and completely eliminated via Optical which was better still than a laptop running on battery via usb.
    What i did notice, however, was that files played locally even via VLC sounded a bit better ( or maybe i just prefered it, but slight details seemed more apparent ) than Tidal and Qobuz (Which sounds a lot brighter than Tidal and around 3-4 db louder than Tidal for the same track).
   Any other improvements that people recommend?


----------



## Ciggavelli

adrianm said:


> I played around with Dave a bit today to see if the Isotek Sirius mains filter i'm using actually makes a difference for Dave as it did with my old dac. I had never heard Dave out of the wall before (except when auditioning).
> Granted, i have my desktop and like 8-9 other things plugged into the same extension chord as Dave so it's pretty much a worst case scenario, but the difference is pretty significant. Especially on the low end. Bass goes deeper and is more controlled.
> Highs seem to benefit a bit as well, but not as much as with my old Sony TA-ZH1ES.
> So Dave does fare with dirty power better than other dacs but it is definitely NOT immune.
> ...


I'll admit that what I'm about to recommend is probably the most "snake-oil" component I own, but the UpTone etherREGEN made improvement to my setup.  Streamed music sounds less grainy to my ears.  YMMV

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/etherregen


----------



## adrianm

Ciggavelli said:


> I'll admit that what I'm about to recommend is probably the most "snake-oil" component I own, but the UpTone etherREGEN made improvement to my setup.  Streamed music sounds less grainy to my ears.  YMMV
> 
> https://uptoneaudio.com/products/etherregen


Yeah that's pretty much as snake oil as it gets. And unless you're into the whole streamer thing (which isn't the case for me ) i see little use for it.


----------



## Lucky87

Sorry if this has been asked already.  Has anyone used a PS Audio Power Plant 3,5,12 ect with the Dave?  Thanks


----------



## Triode User

Lucky87 said:


> Sorry if this has been asked already.  Has anyone used a PS Audio Power Plant 3,5,12 ect with the Dave?  Thanks



I have used a P10 with the Dave. I sold the P10 and kept the Dave. Any other questions?


----------



## Lucky87

Triode User said:


> I have used a P10 with the Dave. I sold the P10 and kept the Dave. Any other questions?


So your power supply was more of a improvement vs the Power Plant?


----------



## Triode User (Sep 23, 2020)

Lucky87 said:


> So your power supply was more of a improvement vs the Power Plant?



You mean the Sean Jacobs DC4 power supply for the Dave? If so then yes. The dc4 has made an enormous difference. The sort of difference you get by going from a TT2 to a Dave, possibly bigger. The Powerplant was more in the region of extremely subtle and if anything I was more inclined to think it was slightly worse with a very slight hardening of the top end. The P10 powerplant also fired noise back into mains which was easily measured. I don’t miss it at all.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> You mean the Sean Jacobs DC4 power supply for the Dave? If so then yes. The dc4 has made an enormous difference. The sort of difference you get by going from a TT2 to a Dave, possibly bigger. The Powerplant was more in the region of extremely subtle and if anything I was more inclined to think it was slightly worse with a very slight hardening of the top end. The P10 powerplant also fired noise back into mains which was easily measured. I don’t miss it at all.


No such issues with a passive filter. It's  more subtle than that but for 10 times less than both and no downsides it's a no-brainer.


----------



## mbj666

quick update, am still waiting for my DAVE to arrive been 2 months so far and latest i got was chord said maybe next week ...............fed up of waiting now


----------



## adrianm

mbj666 said:


> quick update, am still waiting for my DAVE to arrive been 2 months so far and latest i got was chord said maybe next week ...............fed up of waiting now


I had to wait 2 months as well and they only got 2 of them.


----------



## adrianm

adrianm said:


> I had to wait 2 months as well and they only got 2 of them.


Still waiting on my third.


----------



## Lgn3

That seems to be the lead time for many high end audio products. Pandemics tend to have disruptive effects. Who knows how many companies will even exist in a year's time.


----------



## Ciggavelli (Sep 23, 2020)

Lgn3 said:


> That seems to be the lead time for many high end audio products. Pandemics tend to have disruptive effects. Who knows how many companies will even exist in a year's time.


If you look at the company Benchmark, on their site they say that they are having unusually high demand for their products. People are spending more money on audio equipment because they don’t want, or can’t, do things out of the house anymore.  People need entertainment, so a lot are buying new audio equipment. I’d imagine Chord is experiencing an increase in sales due to Covid and that is partially why you have to wait for new components.


----------



## adrianm

Lgn3 said:


> That seems to be the lead time for many high end audio products. Pandemics tend to have disruptive effects. Who knows how many companies will even exist in a year's time.


Well apparently Americans get stimulus checks and they blow them on audio so seems for now business is booming at least on that side of the pond.


----------



## Lgn3

Ciggavelli said:


> If you look at the company Benchmark, on their site they say that they are having unusually high demand for their products. People are spending more money on audio equipment because they don’t want, or can’t, do things out of the house anymore.  People need entertainment, so a lot are buying new audio equipment. I’d imagine Chord is experiencing an increase in sales due to Covid and that is partially why you have to wait for new components.


Exactly but I fear this may be a one off buying spree and if there is no economic recovery due to an effective vaccine or better treatments, waiting two months for a DAVE will be the least of our worries. I know that many hifi retailers in the UK are experiencing a surge in orders but fear what the situation will be next year


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> No such issues with a passive filter. It's more subtle than that but for 10 times less than both and no downsides it's a no-brainer.



It depends on how you look at it. Tens times less cost but maybe fifty times less effect is not good value.


----------



## Clive101 (Sep 24, 2020)

Thought I would wade in on the mains power supply issue. I have a Torus AVR2 16 Amp UK version supplied by a 32 amp dedicated cable.
The SQ has improved with my Dave Mscaler although I may now consider a PS Audio P15 for a second system as it has better voltage control for a WA33 Elite JPS which has been delivered but that is another post for next week or so.
Both clean mains power but in different ways so try one or the other.
The improvements are clear or to me I would never go back.
The Torus has a massive transformer and can deliver lots of peak power for big amps and a few other tricks while the P15 regenerates the power (note some regenerators may not do as well with peak power) and has modern technology where as the Torus in more old school by comparison IMO.
@Triode User seems to have very good mains power and I suspect used the older version of the P10 the newer P15 has been upgraded.
In general I would recommend some sort or power treatment (I have not tried power filtration) but it appears that in his case it did not make any improvements.
I have been experimenting with fuses...short conclusion anyone in the UK that has a fused 13 amp plug connected to their HiFi system is not getting the full potential of their system again IMO but you can tune with fuses. In my case the best fuse is no fuse.
There are safe ways ( ish ) to reduce this problem. It is not new, I see lots of suppliers selling Schuko Mains Plugs for the same reason in the UK.
I may start a thread dedicated to this issue and ways to get round the issue with a 13 amp plug but I fear some flack.
For the avoidance of doubt I am not suggesting anyone bypasses a fuse just posting my experience of when I did.


----------



## Articnoise

Lucky87 said:


> So your power supply was more of a improvement vs the Power Plant?



What's best for me does not have to be best for you, and this is especially true for power cleaners. Few things differ as much as room acoustics and the mains power quality where we lives. We can thus live in a place where a P10 clearly degrades the sound (because low pollution on the mains), but after we have moved to another apartment/house and are using exactly the same hifi stuff, the P10 suddenly improves the sound considerably. This is why you always should test power cleaners and speakers at home.


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## adrianm

Triode User said:


> It depends on how you look at it. Tens times less cost but maybe fifty times less effect is not good value.


This is where subjectivism hits even harder than diminishing returns. Trying to keep perspective, as amazing as Dave is ,it's still not even 5 times better than a Mojo if you ask me. Though i haven't listened to it too much since i got Dave, i will tonight though since i'm going out of town for a few days.
   I feel like the barrier to entry for really good audio quality has significantly decreased lately and incremental improvements to something that is already an incremental improvement seems harder to justify when talking about a 2-3-4-5 fold increase in price.
   That said i am sold on mains filtering as opposed to other stuff and am willing to try Isotek's Sigmas,Titan and etc once we move into our new place. Since it's a new building that will be completed in a year and a half i'm hoping the power will be better.
     I know there are "audiophile" sockets as well. Skeptical about them, but i'm curious what kind of improvements you could make to the electrical system (outside your own transformer) . Main electrical consumers/polluters (washing machine,dryer,fridge) have their own separate circuits so that should count for something.


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## audio_1 (Sep 25, 2020)

adrianm said:


> This is where subjectivism hits even harder than diminishing returns. Trying to keep perspective, as amazing as Dave is ,it's still not even 5 times better than a Mojo if you ask me.



It is imho! Mojo is great on the go, but it doesn't really compare with a well setup Dave and Blu2 in my system. (Opto-DX, Intona 7055B, Oyaide digital cables, Farad Super 3 power supplies, good power cords and conditioning)


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## DaveRedRef-III

Just thought I would mention a 96/24 recording I bought last week.

I have to say this is the most 'musical' new Classical performance I have bought in a very, very long time. It is right up there with Abbado and his Rossini Overtures for me. It is the very epitome of musicality.

Described as a Mozart 'Musical Cabaret' the choice of music is light-weight Mozart but is nonetheless sublime throughout and this is a beautifully warm recording too. I noted in particular that vocals were totally free from unwanted artifacts induced by microphones or components used in the chain. Example: Soprano's do not lean toward being edgy or shrill when singing parts like - Die Zauberflöte K620 “Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen” (Königin der Nacht) 3.01 from ACT I FINALE. - (That is how a soprano sounds in real life!)

This is one of those rare recordings/performances where thoughts of hifi just disappear. That's the best compliment I can pay it.

If Ms Equilbey and cast are replicating this level of performance and recording on other great musical works I think I may have to buy everything they do. 

*Magic Mozart - Jan 2020*
*Laurence Equilbey*


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## HeeBroG

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Just thought I would mention a 96/24 recording I bought last week.
> 
> I have to say this is the most 'musical' new Classical performance I have bought in a very, very long time. It is right up there with Abbado and his Rossini Overtures for me. It is the very epitome of musicality.



Thanks for sharing.
May I ask which version of Abbado's Rossini Overtures you are referring to?


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## DaveRedRef-III (Sep 26, 2020)

I think its 1975 but certainly they are the performances held on this CD.

Please note _Deutsche Grammophon_ digital masterings are not the best imo. They can sound a little brittle at times. This disc is all about the performances and I love them. Abbado understood Rossini like no other conductor I know. Infectiously musical performances imo.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rossini-London-Symphony-Orchestra-Claudio/dp/B007LRJ00Q




.......and this 9 CD Box Set too


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## Glossator

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I think its 1975 but certainly they are the performances held on this CD.
> 
> Please note _Deutsche Grammophon_ digital masterings are not the best imo. They can sound a little brittle at times. This disc is all about the performances and I love them. Abbado understood Rossini like no other conductor I know. Infectiously musical imo.
> 
> ...


... I think I know what you mean about the Yellow Label's transfers.     However, last night I listened to this for the first time - which must have been phenomenally difficult to capture and I thought they rather hit the ball out of the park:


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## doraymon

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Just thought I would mention a 96/24 recording I bought last week.
> 
> I have to say this is the most 'musical' new Classical performance I have bought in a very, very long time. It is right up there with Abbado and his Rossini Overtures for me. It is the very epitome of musicality.
> 
> ...


Nice! Very refreshing and of course, Mozart is Mozart...
For Roon/Tidal users, the Album is available in MQA format.


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## ubs28 (Sep 27, 2020)

adrianm said:


> This is where subjectivism hits even harder than diminishing returns. Trying to keep perspective, as amazing as Dave is ,it's still not even 5 times better than a Mojo if you ask me. Though i haven't listened to it too much since i got Dave, i will tonight though since i'm going out of town for a few days.
> I feel like the barrier to entry for really good audio quality has significantly decreased lately and incremental improvements to something that is already an incremental improvement seems harder to justify when talking about a 2-3-4-5 fold increase in price.
> That said i am sold on mains filtering as opposed to other stuff and am willing to try Isotek's Sigmas,Titan and etc once we move into our new place. Since it's a new building that will be completed in a year and a half i'm hoping the power will be better.
> I know there are "audiophile" sockets as well. Skeptical about them, but i'm curious what kind of improvements you could make to the electrical system (outside your own transformer) . Main electrical consumers/polluters (washing machine,dryer,fridge) have their own separate circuits so that should count for something.



Well, it depends on what you listen it from. The Focal Utopia really needs the Chord Dave. To me, it is more than 5 times better than the Mojo because I really don’t like listening to it on this setup.

However with the AFC 2, it doesn’t really matter that much if I use the Mojo, Hugo 2 or the Dave. The main setup with this headphone is the Poly + Mojo in the end and it sounds good enough for me.


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## edwardsean

I think the Dave may just be the best DAC currently available in the world at any price.

I've wondered a bit why certain audiophiles stubbornly spent $20, $60, $80K on systems to support Dave. One way to look at that is "linearly," and ask if all that gear makes any real difference given the claims for Dave. Another way to look at it is "laterally," and ask why not just get a dCS Vivaldi full stack, or some other legendary DAC in that stratospheric price range. 

As I continue to build my system (I'm now upgrading internal wiring and capacitors) I have my answer.

I think the Dave may just be the best DAC currently available in the world at any price.

I'm sorry I can't say this remotely for the Dave in stock form. However, when the Dave is properly configured, in a full system, the performance is staggering. I'm coming to the conclusion that Dave's transparency, ability to endlessly unravel timbral complexities, place sonic objects precisely in space is unrivaled–regardless of price class. At this level accuracy is no longer confused with sterility but yields: beauty. 

As with all great musical instruments, I'm no longer just imposing my sonic will upon Dave trying to squeeze out what I want. I'm learning from Dave. 

Until recently, I've been using live music as my touchstone for what good audio reproduction should sound like. But, that's not quite right, because engineered audio is not live music. I was listening to a superbly captured acoustic recording. I realized, with the recent upgrades, I could not only locate the piano precisely in the image, I could place each key in 88 slots as there were being depressed. This was an astonishing and breathtaking experience with a piece of music I've heard countless times as recently as a few days ago. 

It occurred to me that this precision is not something I ever have with live music. Even though my ears are galvanically isolated from my brain, unless I can detach them, nerves intact, and place them in a spaced pair six inches from the hammers, it's not the same. Engineered recordings, even of live performances outside studios, are not exactly real, they are "hyper real." It is a unique experience in its own right, an experience I want to have. And, I want it from a Dave based system.


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## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> I've wondered a bit why certain audiophiles stubbornly spent $20, $60, $80K on systems to support Dave. One way to look at that is "linearly," and ask if all that gear makes any real difference given the claims for Dave. Another way to look at it is "laterally," and ask why not just get a dCS Vivaldi full stack, or some other legendary DAC in that stratospheric price range.


I've wondered this as well.


edwardsean said:


> I'm sorry I can't say this remotely for the Dave in stock form. However, when the Dave is properly configured, in a full system, the performance is staggering.


What upgrades did you find most impactful? And what's the rest of the system?


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## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> I've wondered this as well.
> What upgrades did you find most impactful? And what's the rest of the system?



I'm going to do a write up on my current system and devices I've tried along the way, as well as a separate post on Dave v. Bartok. 

I'm still in building mode though. I have some really nice capacitors coming in tomorrow and I'm going to try out various configurations in one of my power supplies. 

As mentioned, sadly, this is not a bad time to try things out if you have the time. I thought with Covid, the economic uncertainties would put a freeze on many people's buying and selling gear. The exact opposite has been true. And, I don't see this as a negative of human nature. We are looking for comfort and meaning right now. One of the amazing qualities of music is its ability to transport you to other times, places, dimensions. It allows you to be a "mental traveler."

All this to say, this as a good a time as any to try out gear and sell if it doesn't suit you. I've been surprised with how quickly offers come in. 

But not to keep you in suspense, in my top tier of Dave upgrades are: the Sean Jacobs custom power supply, upscaling Dave, and a server/player. The last is the most problematic as there is such a vast range of performance. I'll get into what I thought regarding what gear contributed what improvement and how pieces synergize, or don't.


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## HeeBroG

edwardsean said:


> I think the Dave may just be the best DAC currently available in the world at any price.
> 
> Until recently, I've been using live music as my touchstone for what good audio reproduction should sound like. But, that's not quite right, because engineered audio is not live music. I was listening to a superbly captured acoustic recording. I realized, with the recent upgrades, I could not only locate the piano precisely in the image, I could place each key in 88 slots as there were being depressed. This was an astonishing and breathtaking experience with a piece of music I've heard countless times as recently as a few days ago.
> 
> It occurred to me that this precision is not something I ever have with live music. Even though my ears are galvanically isolated from my brain, unless I can detach them, nerves intact, and place them in a spaced pair six inches from the hammers, it's not the same. Engineered recordings, even of live performances outside studios, are not exactly real, they are "hyper real." It is a unique experience in its own right, an experience I want to have. And, I want it from a Dave based system.



Interesting post. I totally agree that recorded music is often 'hyper-real" as you said. It's a tough job engineering a recording to sound equally good over various playback systems eg. headphones vs speakers etc.

What is this recording you mentioned where you can place each key of the piano? Hyper-real indeed.


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## edwardsean

HeeBroG said:


> What is this recording you mentioned where you can place each key of the piano? Hyper-real indeed.



It was Will Ackerman's "Floyd's Ghost." There are a lot of better examples of piano for what I was describing, since this is primarily a guitar piece. Brad Mehldau comes to mind. It just happened to be the track I was playing at the point of insight. 

Nevertheless, there are a few great engineers of acoustic music, like Cookie Marenco. To my mind, Will Ackerman is another. He was the father of the Windham Hill acoustic movement. During the eighties when everyone was exploring synthesizers and big reverbs (and big hair), these guys were redefining what it meant to capture the natural sounds of wood and steel. 

This piece is a masterclass on how to blow up a single acoustic guitar with backing piano to orchestral dimensions. Simply lovely.


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## alekc

edwardsean said:


> I think the Dave may just be the best DAC currently available in the world at any price.



Congrats on your system 

That is very bold statement. Would you be so kind and list other dacs you have compared with Dave. Not to invalidate it, but I am very curious how the competitors list looked like in your case and I am asking from potential future Dave owner, however honestly speaking the price tag keeps me in "think about it one day" state for now.


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## adrianm

alekc said:


> Congrats on your system
> 
> That is very bold statement. Would you be so kind and list other dacs you have compared with Dave. Not to invalidate it, but I am very curious how the competitors list looked like in your case and I am asking from potential future Dave owner, however honestly speaking the price tag keeps me in "think about it one day" state for now.


I was in the same state, absolutely no intention to buy it untill i heard it. Then the price became just a number  I haven't auditioned more expensive stuff, but i'm pretty sure you won't find competitors near it's price point. 
    I am curious to read @edwardsean  's comparison to the Bartok though. Everyone reviewing Bartok is conveniently comparing it to the TT2.


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## audio_1

adrianm said:


> I was in the same state, absolutely no intention to buy it untill i heard it. Then the price became just a number  I haven't auditioned more expensive stuff, but i'm pretty sure you won't find competitors near it's price point.
> I am curious to read @edwardsean  's comparison to the Bartok though. Everyone reviewing Bartok is conveniently comparing it to the TT2.


You won't find competitors at any price point! No one else is doing what Rob Watts has done with Dave and MScaler.


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## edwardsean (Sep 30, 2020)

alekc said:


> That is very bold statement. Would you be so kind and list other dacs you have compared with Dave. Not to invalidate it, but I am very curious how the competitors list looked like in your case and I am asking from potential future Dave owner, however honestly speaking the price tag keeps me in "think about it one day" state for now.



I've heard high end DACs like the Vivaldi, but I haven't done any kind of deep testing in my own system. If you go back, you'll see that making comparisons wasn't the basis of my statement. My angle of approach is from the point of building up a Dave system.

I meant it exactly as I said it, "I _think _the Dave _may just_ be...." It's a musing on my part that answers a particular question for myself. I know Dave owners who are in danger of hitting the six figure mark on their systems. Some are here and some are over at Audiophile Style. Many have spent more than the Dave on power conditioning alone, even before getting into the question of servers or reclockers.

There are Dave users we all know that have tried or owned most world-class DACs and still pour more money into Dave. I am not one of them. I'm actually working on a budget. It may be a different budget than yours, but I'm not a member of the "cost no object" club. Still, I wanted to know "what do they know." And, I am finding that out for myself.

Over time I've seen two paths. One kind of Dave user attains the Dave as a summit of high end audio, but then finds even higher peaks from that purview. They sell their Dave and get a dCS, MSB, EMM or some other three letter brand. They look back down on those poor pathetic Dave users who think they are at the top when actually it is they who have scaled even higher. Dave is the best DAC, phhhh.

Those on the other path go to work. They are builders rather than buyers. There's no judgment here, or if there is, it's only in fun. It's a matter of time and temperament. I had to make my own decision, which is why I spent a week with the Bartok.


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## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> I had to make my own decision, which is why I spent a week with the Bartok.


Well we know the conclusion, give us the comparison already


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## musickid (Oct 1, 2020)

I have gone ahead and traded in my hms/tt2 for a silver dave which should be arriving within 2 weeks. If anyone is interested the rationale behind this is described on the tt2 thread.


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## edwardsean (Oct 1, 2020)

​*THE STORY OF DAVE AND GOLIATH*

Some representative comparisons of Dave and Bartok can be found here:
https://www.13thnote.net/2019/10/22/dcs-bartok-review-bela-bartok-would-have-been-proud/
https://www.stereonet.co.uk/reviews/dcs-bartok-dac-review


If you look at reviews of the dCS Bartok and find the section where they compare It to the Chord Dave you see a clear consensus. It can be summed up in the words of the Stereonet reviewer: "While it’s true that the DAVE is said to improve with upsampling, the dCS is the only DAC I’ve had in my system that has been able to show the Chord a clean pair of heels." Translation: Bartok wins. Are they right?

*My Goal for Audio: Realism *
First of all I have to say something about what it means to "win." What does it mean to say one audio device is better than another? What exactly is the target? Here, at least, is my goal in audio: realism (or hyper-realism).

I want the "Diana Krall at Axpona" experience. The thing is Diana Krall was never at Axpona, but if you closed your eyes in room 242A, she was. There were a bunch of people streaming into a demo system room so, on a lark, I followed the crowd. What a weird sight I saw. People were sitting/standing in front of a DAC, amp, and speakers in rapt silence. What was weird was that I didn't get the impression that they were quiet so as to enable mutual critical listening for potential purchase. They were quiet out of... respect, the kind of respect you give a live singer who is pouring out emotion. Like clapping at the end of a movie in a theater, it doesn't really make sense. The actors aren't there at the cineplex. Likewise, Diana Krall is not going to be offended if you politely whisper. She's not there. But–her performance was there, in a way so palpable that you instinctually go quiet.

Realism in audio is not just about what you hear, what you "see" (imaging), but about what you feel. I don't just mean in the sense of internal emotions. I mean "feel" like what you would touch if you reached out your hand. Jay Luong over at Audiobacon uses the term "molded." I like the term because it takes sculpture as its metaphor instead of the visual arts. We often use the term "holographic" to describe this sensation of having the audio image right in front of us. But, you can pass your hand straight through a hologram. I want to feel like if I try that with my audio I'm going to accidentally slap Diana Krall across the face. Realism.

For this to happen, unfortunately, you need everything to go right. Soundstage, dynamics, transparency, tonal accuracy, I mean on and on, ev-er-y-thing. So, what does Bartok get right and what does Dave get right?

*Round 1: Bartok v. Dave (Stock)*
Let's get this out of the way. In both their stock forms, the Bartok–crushes-the Dave, no competition. Imagine what would happen if you actually dropped the massive 17 kilo Bartok physically onto the Dave like in a diving crossbody. That's what happens sonically.

The Bartok is bigger in all soundstage dimensions; it is both more relaxed and more energetic; its rendering is more dense and vivid without giving up clarity to the Dave; it has greater rhythmic drive and punchier dynamics; it actually digs up more detail than Dave from a lower noise floor; and, it improves upon a Dave signature strength extracting even more spatial cues.

Simply put, the Bartok sounds more real than the Dave. The reviewers who have made the comparison are justified in their critical claims and their effusive praise of Bartok. You could talk about how we all hear subjectively and have different tastes, but, I would have trouble hearing you over the gigantic sound of the Bartok.

Well what does the Dave have in its corner?

The list is comparatively short. Dave is better technically. It is more transparent (more about this later), more tonally/timbrally accurate, slightly better at separating musical lines, more precise in timing (metronomically, not in terms of rhythmic excitement), it's more... that's about it.

I've heard reviewers, pro and amateur, make equanimous statements like Bartok's sound is more fleshed out while Dave's is "raw, cut to the bone." Yeah, both are great and you picks your poison, but when you place them side by side, Dave's signal isn't just "cut to the bone" it's positively skeletal. Dave produces a clearer picture but the Bartok breaths blood and breath into it.

Listening to a debate between these two is like hearing a slightly more qualified expert nerd pipe up and try to land nuanced points, while an intelligent, clearly more charismatic and dynamic, speaker dances oratory circles around him.

So, case closed, except for that one little qualifying remark from the reviewer I quoted in the beginning, "While it’s true that _the DAVE is said to improve_ with upsampling, the dCS...." What if we stop comparing stock dCS to stock Chord? What if we try to do what Chord claims you can't do, and _improve_ _Dave_, not just with upsampling but a whole system. Is that still a fair comparison and can't you also improve the Bartok with a Rossini clock and a system of its own. Yes, but the clock is another $8,500 and the Bartok already contains the excellent $5,000 dCS Network Bridge. So my interest, at my price point, really is in comparing the Bartok as an AIO against a Dave-based system.

When you do that the entire topography of the debate shifts radically. Now, listening to these two trade compelling points is like having your head snap back and forth in an Olympic ping pong match. Each unit provides a completely convincing and deeply colored world that makes you feel like you're switching between alternating hallucinatory states. It's hard to compare initially. I needed all the time I had to orient, reorient, and reorient again, letting myself get enraptured and reeling myself back in. I should mention before going further that getting the Dave to Bartok levels of SQ and beyond will cost more than the Bartok. Depending on how far you want to go, it will be considerably more.

*Round 2: Bartok v. Dave (System)*
This is where it gets really interesting. As I said, I'd come back to the issue of transparency. At this point I'm satisfied that whether you are a paid reviewer or a poster on a forum site, if you've written–anything–about Bartok v. Dave, I've read it. A great majority of these comparisons were using Bartok as an AIO against Dave in various states of system from no Mscaler to the sky's limit. There's such a befuddling point of contention where some clearly thought the Dave was more transparent and others thought it was definitely the Bartok. It took a while for my brain to sort out the complexities of how we hear transparency in this match.

The Dave is more transparent. The reason why the Bartok can nevertheless seem more transparent is because it pushes its sonic components forward in such a tactile manner that you feel like there is nothing between you and the music. The truth is that each and every one of those pieces of sound is wrapped in a veil so diaphanous that you don't know it's there. You understand the illusion right? Usually if there is is a veil it is thick enough to affect separation. The sound that pushes forward congeals with background elements restrained by a common fabric. The Bartok is so good with resolution and separation that every contour of sound is revealed, so if there is a veil it is so sheer it doesn't matter. Except it does.

When Dave was in Clark Kent mode his mild manner didn't push his superiority in regard to transparency. It was there, but presented meekly. When Dave takes off the glasses and puts on a 'S'-ystem that transparency forces its way through to your consciousness like alcohol. It is bracing in its intoxication, not inducing stupor but naked revelation as in a lucid dream. This transparency is the result of Rob Watt's unique approach to tapping Dave's output directly to the D/A pulse array, because no amp is as transparent as no amp. Possibly even more important is the D/A itself in the way that his algorithms and, whatever other dark arts he employs, is able to unravel all the timbral complexities as more true to source than debatably any other DAC on the planet.

John Darko had an interesting arc with Dave. He loved the Dave in its time, but then he found the Bartok. No matter how diplomatically he put it, he now clearly prefers the Bartok. Then came the Mola Mola Tambaqui and he was surprised that, in comparison, the Tambaqui made the Bartok sound "veiled." Consider, the Bartok is that good. Even if what you do for living is review audio, you would not recognize this veil unless you compared the Bartok to a more revealing DAC. The Tambaqui is one, but not to get sidetracked, so is Dave. Yes, the Dave was also always that good, even in stock form, but it was polite enough to be overwhelmed when the Bartok came roaring in.

So, if you have a stock Dave you can find yourself on the horns of nasty dilemma. Either you get an amp to juice up the Dave's soundstage, density, and dynamics or there's no way you get an amp and diminish Dave's greatest strength of transparency. Either course makes sense with its corresponding compromises. There is a third route.

You can carefully build a system around the Dave with upscaling, server/player, reclocker, various high quality power supplies including retrofitting Dave's own PS, and paying attention to every single cable involved. However, I have to say, it is incredibly involved. You could make good strides on this path and unless you were really willing and able to research, invest, and experiment you still wouldn't get to Bartok level of quality. If you're not going to enjoy the process of crafting a Dave system, or life does not allow it, honestly, I think you are better off getting a Bartok. As to cost, if you are willing to be very, very patient they do turn up on the used market for about the price of Dave. Even at full price, the Bartok will likely end up the cheaper route.

It took a serious amount of time, effort, and investment to get the Dave to the place where I could show the Bartok the Dave's heels and send the dCS back to the dealer without remorse. Even so the Dave will never be the Bartok and the Bartok will never be the Dave. By nature, the Bartok will always have the more exciting but colored presentation–against the Dave. From what I've heard of the dCS line, I think all their DACs will. It's interesting because dCS also aims at "true to source" and has no interest in deliberately imparting a certain sound. So, I do think, at least so far, that Chord just succeeded at it better than dCS (brave words in a Dave forum I know).

*Conclusion, at least mine*
I said that the Bartok has a more "exciting" sound. Perhaps I should say more "excited" sound. There are things going on in the Bartok, both digital and analog, which result in a euphonic, almost euphoric, glaze over each note it renders. I don't mean that dCS added a kind of audio varnish, but that this is how they designed their version of neutral as humans and not robots. I think many will prefer this sound even over a well realized Dave system. No argument from me. Bartok v. Dave (System) is a matter of pick your poison to me. Here's why I chose to build a Dave-based system.

Damien Rice burst on the scene as a broke busker from the streets of the UK to worldwide fame on the back of one song: "The Blower's Daughter." He recorded it in his bedroom with equipment paid for by generous relative. As the story goes he bumped into his long lost love, the one he let get away (or drove away). He walked up into his bedroom flat hit record and let out his grief to try and let go in the only way he knew: song. The track starts sparse, solo guitar and his voice. It slowly builds until a crescendo of release when a female voice breaks in awash in spectral reverb singing, "Did I say that I loathe you? Did I say I want to leave it all behind...." Then the whole apparition fades in a vapor trail of modulated delay lines. The track returns to Damien alone with his guitar in his empty apartment. She. She was never there. She never said those things. It was only in his mind.

The host of technical decisions that are required to render this across any media is done either with studied selection or instantaneous instinct. Irregardless, whether you choose a tube or solid state amp, a condenser mic or dynamic, how much natural reverb vs digital reverb you place when and where, these and numerous others are all artistic choices. The musicians and engineers have already baked them into the track; what they want to sound euphonic and colored, what they want to sound direct and raw. From my perspective, to the degree that gear gets in the way you remove connection to the intentions of the artists and reduce their effect on you.

To call Dave accurate and transparent can imply a kind of technical sterility. On its own it convinces you this is not the case. Next to something like the Bartok, you really start to think again. A Dave System however, takes that accuracy/transparency and infuses it with so much drive and substance that the image takes on life-like dimensionality. It’s audio alchemy. When you combine clarity and density in this way you can conjure artists to be materially present at will. The Bartok has a gorgeous exciting/excited sound in and of itself. The Dave can better produce the excitement of having Diana Krall's beautiful voice right in front of you. (Just, please, don't try to slap her across the face.)

_Digital Veritas in Extremis_.


----------



## JaZZ

Exciting review – thanks, _Edward!_


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## ekfc63

Thanks for that


----------



## alxw0w

musickid said:


> I have gone ahead and traded in my hms/tt2 for a silver dave which should be arriving within 2 weeks. If anyone is interested the rationale behind this is described on the tt2 thread.


I did the same couple of weeks ago. You won't be disappointed.


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## adrianm

Thanks for the impressions 


edwardsean said:


> either you get an amp to juice up the Dave's soundstage, density, and dynamics or there's no way you get an amp and diminish Dave's greatest strength of transparency


I assume this mean listening was done with headphones, correct?


edwardsean said:


> If you're not going to enjoy the process of crafting a Dave system, or life does not allow it, honestly, I think you are better off getting a Bartok.


Since comparisons were done stock v stock , how much do you think the M-scaler, mains filtering and some decent bnc cables close the gap? What do you consider to be the silver bullet that takes Dave to Bartok level? The M-scaler, the custom power supply, both? Or even more tinkering?
   As for the financial part, with discounts included Dave, M-scaler, mains filtering and bnc cables still end up cheaper than the Bartok (with a 20% discount included as well).
  While i just got my Dave and have no plans to upgrade soon i am wondering if it makes sense to get the M-scaler down the line or just sell Dave, get a Bartok and be done with it since i'm in the formerly mentioned camp.
  I do have my reservations about this though since even the Mojo was better in many ways (transparency mostly) than a 2k Sony Dac so clearly component can't overcome everything, Chord's approach makes things sound more real than everything i've ever heard, and i wouldn't trade that in for anything. 
    Then again i haven't heard Bartok yet.


----------



## TheAttorney

edwardsean said:


> You can carefully build a system around the Dave with upscaling, server/player, reclocker, various high quality power supplies including retrofitting Dave's own PS, and paying attention to every single cable involved. However, I have to say, it is incredibly involved. Y



Great review, and hopefully you will follow up with listing the changes that you felt gave the biggest benefit.

In my case, I found that just about everything matters and it's hard to quantify whether, say, the BNC cable was more important than USB cable, or were the server upgrades more important than the HMS, etc,etc. I haven't tried the power supply replacement.

However, wouldn't much the same improvements happen to the Bartok as well? If you had put the same system building effort into the Bartok, would it also have scaled up?
For example, did you try HMS with Bartok (with single cable at 0.5M taps)?


----------



## edwardsean (Sep 30, 2020)

adrianm said:


> Thanks for the impressions
> I assume this mean listening was done with headphones, correct?



I'm exclusively headphones, because, as I mentioned, we all have "what life allows." I would very much like to be a speakers guy, but the people around me don't want that for me. It is to my great sadness that they matter more to me than audio.



adrianm said:


> Since comparisons were done stock v stock , how much do you think the M-scaler, mains filtering and some decent bnc cables close the gap? What do you consider to be the silver bullet that takes Dave to Bartok level? The M-scaler, the custom power supply, both? Or even more tinkering?
> As for the financial part, with discounts included Dave, M-scaler, mains filtering and bnc cables still end up cheaper than the Bartok (with a 20% discount included as well).
> While i just got my Dave and have no plans to upgrade soon i am wondering if it makes sense to get the M-scaler down the line or just sell Dave, get a Bartok and be done with it since i'm in the formerly mentioned camp.



I can't emphasize this enough. There is no "sliver bullet" to bring Dave to Bartok level. Maybe, the Taiko Extreme if you have the means? I understand the desire for there to be a simple solution. That simple solution is the Bartok. I pinned a lot of hope on the Sean Jacobs power supply to be that–because it's fabulous–but it only contributed its part. To be clear I have the DC3 with Mundorfs and silver wiring upgrade. I'm sure the DC4 will fare better, but it is twice the price going from $3K to $6K. Even then, I would bet that the DC4 would still not do it. Because, that's only one end of the equation. You have to address the digital side as well.

If I ended up burying this point let me unearth it again. The Bartok is that good. It is a staggeringly beautiful sound and a true AIO in the way Dave is not. I'm speaking again strictly from a headphone perspective.

As to the financial part, I'm with you, I looked at the Dave initially as a value proposition against the Bartok, only to spend myself way past the Bartok. It was initially, "It's simple, the Dave is $6K cheaper than Bartok." A few pieces of gear later, "The Dave is $4K cheaper." A few pieces of gear later, "Okay, the Dave is still $2K cheaper." A few pieces of gear later, "Mm...,  they're about equal." A few pieces of gear later, "What's happening to me?"

So, eventually, I had to back up and reassess, because the value proposition no longer applied–at all.

It's part of why I drafted the review, to save some people some trouble if I could, and encourage others to get into trouble if they so chose. If I started out with stock Dave and stock Bartok, I'd be listening to a Bartok right now, blissfully ignorant of what Dave is capable of, and I do mean "blissfully." I didn't set out to try and build a system that could better the Bartok for me. It became that in a blind frantic fumbling tumbling upward. I feel it would be better for most folks to have what you need to make informed choices earlier on.


----------



## audio_1 (Sep 30, 2020)

ekfc63 said:


> Thanks for that





edwardsean said:


> ​*THE STORY OF DAVE AND GOLIATH*
> 
> Some representative comparisons of Dave and Bartok can be found here:
> https://www.13thnote.net/2019/10/22/dcs-bartok-review-bela-bartok-would-have-been-proud/
> ...




I believe from your review that you only compared the Dave and Bartok headphone outputs. I compared the RCA outputs on the DAVE and the dCS Vivaldi direct to a power amplifier. I much preferred the Dave. The Vivaldi was too polite, lacked drive and lacked emotional involvement imho. I prefer to listen at low levels and here the pace and dynamics of the Dave made music far more enjoyable. The Vivaldi sounded flat in comparison. I really recommend getting the M-Scaler, it brings the Dave to another level. The sound is smoother, denser, but still more resolved. Poor recordings on the Dave alone can sound quite musical with the addition of the M-Scaler.


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> I'm exclusively headphones, because, as I mentioned, we all have "what life allows." I would very much like to be a speakers guy, but the people around me don't want that for me. It is to my great sadness that they matter more to me than audio.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well your posts and experience are pure gold, this is exactly what i have been looking for the last few months. If i had read this a few months ago i might have been  waiting for a Bartok delivery right about now. Another reason for getting Dave  is i've mostly written off the digital side since my brief in store auditions only showed minor differences.
    I was specifically trying to avoid going down the upgrade road without having some notion as to where i'm headed before jumping on the M-Scaler bandwagon. I might need new headphones before that though.
  I'm in the same boat with "what life allows" , but limited to closed backs at the moment, which is one of the reasons we bought a new place, but it'll be a year and a half before completion, so maybe 2 untill the Bartok and open backed headphones. Perhaps a Dave 2 would be on the horizon by then. I really hope they come out with an AIO solution.
   We seem to have similar tastes in music, if that review were based on classical listening only, i probably would've written it off.
   What headphones did you use/are you using?


----------



## edwardsean

TheAttorney said:


> However, wouldn't much the same improvements happen to the Bartok as well? If you had put the same system building effort into the Bartok, would it also have scaled up?
> For example, did you try HMS with Bartok (with single cable at 0.5M taps)?



To my mind, the strength of the Bartok is that it is an AIO, again, to my mind, the best AIO. So, to be sure, you can build a system around the Bartok–but not in the same way as the Dave. 

What I mean is that you can add a server to Dave; you need to add a server to Dave. You can also add a server to the Bartok, but you have the dCS Network Bridge already integrated inside. The dCS engineers designed a perfectly mated server and DAC, which I would assume is internally joined better than anything you could manage externally even with a $3k USB cable. I'm not saying you can't improve the Bartok with an external server and reclocker. In fact, I know you can. It's just the thought of it hurts me in regard to the waste. 

As for the analog side, you cannot retrofit a power supply into the Bartok like you can the Dave. None is available, and I would bet you all the money in my now empty pockets that none will ever be available. I don't see Sean Jacobs or anyone else building an aftermarket power supply for the Bartok. Mostly, it doesn't need one. As I've mentioned before, the Dave uses a $44 dollar off the shelf SMPS. I'm not sure if you've seen pictures of the Bartok's internals but it's got that sweet little bank of Rubycons. On balance, one of the big downsides of an AIO is that you have the server, DAC, and amp all sharing a single power supply. Yet, dCS did a great job in isolating necessary parts and they gave the amp its own transformer so it doesn't take away from the DAC and vice versa. 

As for upscaling. I did try upscaling the Bartok. it didn't go great. You gained some, you lost some, crucially you lost transparency. Also, unless they come out with a firmware revision, the Bartok tops out at 384KHz. Not to get into that here, but for me, that is a real and not theoretical limitation over the Dave. dCS has their own digital upgrade path in the Rossini clock, which is the only thing I would want to add to the Bartok. Could it then better the Dave? Maybe, but at $8,500, value propositions finally kick back in. 




audio_1 said:


> Did you compare the RCA outputs on the Bartok and Dave, or just the headphone outputs? I compared the RCA outputs on the DAVE and the dCS Vivaldi direct to a power amplifier. I much preferred the Dave. The Vivaldi was too polite, lacked drive and lacked emotional involvement imho. I prefer to listen at low levels and here the pace and dynamics of the Dave made music far more enjoyable. The Vivaldi sounded flat in comparison. The M-Scaler and other tweaks brings the Dave to an even higher level.



I really should have been more clear. I am speaking entirely from the context of the headphone output. Thank you so much for impression of The Dave v. Vivaldi in an amplified speaker setup. 

The Bartok–via its headphone amp–is anything but polite. It's demanding. Where it specifically shines against the Dave-Stock headphone output is in drive and emotional involvement. Yes, upscaling Dave adds a complexity and delicacy of rendering, and that is where it excels, engaging in its own way. 

I think at some point along the way, I just really wanted to see if, maybe, I couldn't have both.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

Just gone and bought an ex-demo Dave and M Scaler from a UK HiFi Dealer


----------



## Triode User

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> Just gone and bought an ex-demo Dave and M Scaler from a UK HiFi Dealer



Cool!!!!


----------



## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> We seem to have similar tastes in music, if that review were based on classical listening only, i probably would've written it off.


I bet we do, but perhaps also like yourself, I'm a lover of all genres. Damien Rice sits happily next to Mahler in my drive. Well, not all genres. I don't care much for Polka or Tuvan throat singing. 

It brings up an interesting angle to all of this. It is possible that someone might make a decision based on musical preference. The Dave(Stock or System) maybe being better suited for classical, jazz, acoustic, etc. and the Bartok possibly better for pop, EDM, Electronic, etc. Still, that division makes me itch. I think, of a truth, you really need both of what they offer for all genres. I don't want to lose dynamic mass, esp. on large orchestral scores, and I'm loathe to give up transparency even if I'm listening to Deadmau5. 



> What headphones did you use/are you using?



I'm using top-tier open back Audeze planars. But, that brings up a whole another convoluted ball of wax, literally convoluted as I run convolution.


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> I bet we do, but perhaps also like yourself, I'm a lover of all genres.


 Indeed, i listen to all kinds of stuff, from Billie Eilish, Lorde to Eagles and Agnes Obel,  but appear to be zeroing in on acoustic and alternative rock as a preferred genres. I find myself looking for meaning in lyrics most of all though, regardless of genre, which is why i haven't been that attracted to classical yet. 
  Maybe you're being bottlenecked by the LCD-4's as well?  when i finally get some open backs i'm really curious to hear the Final Audio D8K Pro. Who knows what else will come out by then.
   Speaking of dynamic mass, might want to try out a silver cable for the Lcd-4's as well if you haven't already. It's has had a huge impact on my Z1R compared to the stock cable and the Sony Kimber cable. More than the mains filtering on Dave even.
    It sounds much "fuller" (not thicker ), for lack of a better word and more dynamic. I'm not convinced that it's the material that plays the part though, but more the thickness and (maybe) geometry of the wire.


----------



## Hooster

musickid said:


> I have gone ahead and traded in my hms/tt2 for a silver dave which should be arriving within 2 weeks. If anyone is interested the rationale behind this is described on the tt2 thread.



Good news, thanks for sharing. So you think the Mscaler fails to elevate TT2 to the DAVE level?


----------



## alxw0w

Hooster said:


> Good news, thanks for sharing. So you think the Mscaler fails to elevate TT2 to the DAVE level?


In my opinion yes (and no in some areas). Solo Dave is still better than MTT2. I'll write more of my Dave impressions in some time


----------



## Triode User

Hooster said:


> Good news, thanks for sharing. So you think the Mscaler fails to elevate TT2 to the DAVE level?



MK has rehearsed this question many times and some of us have said that in our opinion the Mscaler does indeed fail to elevate TT2 to the Dave level. Others will say the opposite. My point has always been that if one prizes transparency as I do then TT2 is not and cannot ever be as transparent as a Dave even with an Mscaler.

My take on what MK has decided is that he can see a way financially to ultimately get to a Dave with Mscaler but he cannot do it in one go so he is foregoing the Msclaer for a while until he can add one back to his new Dave. I guess the trade in offer was sufficiently attractive to persuade him to go this route rather than just wait and save and then swop TT2 for Dave at a later date. This way he will also get used to a solo Dave before adding an Mscaler.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

Triode User said:


> TT2 is not and cannot ever be as transparent as a Dave even with an Mscaler


I'm the person who choose to stay with HMS+TT2 after auditioning DAVE (many thanks to @alxw0w ). I must admit that I choose TT2 only because of it's higher power. In terms of transparency DAVE is a clear winner, it's not even close. TT2 is excellent DAC, but DAVE is "F...k! It's outstanding!" DAC.


----------



## alxw0w

Ragnar-BY said:


> I'm the person who choose to stay with HMS+TT2 after auditioning DAVE (many thanks to @alxw0w ). I must admit that I choose TT2 only because of it's higher power. In terms of transparency DAVE is a clear winner, it's not even close. TT2 is excellent DAC, but DAVE is "F...k! It's outstanding!" DAC.


Yup power is really what separates two units. 
But when you forget about power limitation of the Dave (for example when you only use it as a dac) it's better. 
*Clarity *when the music gets complex it's beyond imagination. Also extension on top and highs are just epic.
But to all folks interested in my opinion I'll write some more impressions in some time.


----------



## Triode User

alxw0w said:


> Yup power is really what separates two units.
> But when you forget about power limitation of the Dave (for example when you only use it as a dac) it's better.
> *Clarity *when the music gets complex it's beyond imagination. Also extension on top and highs are just epic.
> But to all folks interested in my opinion I'll write some more impressions in some time.



Agreed with all that and also for me a big thing with the Dave compared to TT2 is the clarity, depth and detail of the bass. It really is a class act.

I look forward to your further thoughts.


----------



## Uncle Monty

edwardsean said:


> I bet we do, but perhaps also like yourself, I'm a lover of all genres. Damien Rice sits happily next to Mahler in my drive. Well, not all genres. I don't care much for Polka or Tuvan throat singing.
> 
> It brings up an interesting angle to all of this. It is possible that someone might make a decision based on musical preference. The Dave(Stock or System) maybe being better suited for classical, jazz, acoustic, etc. and the Bartok possibly better for pop, EDM, Electronic, etc. Still, that division makes me itch. I think, of a truth, you really need both of what they offer for all genres. I don't want to lose dynamic mass, esp. on large orchestral scores, and I'm loathe to give up transparency even if I'm listening to Deadmau5.
> 
> ...


I listen to a lot of Heavy Metal and Electronica via MScaler / DAVE and nothing's lacking. In fact, it's all very exciting. A bit too exciting sometimes...but in a good way...


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> I bet we do, but perhaps also like yourself, I'm a lover of all genres. Damien Rice sits happily next to Mahler in my drive. Well, not all genres. I don't care much for Polka or Tuvan throat singing.
> 
> It brings up an interesting angle to all of this. It is possible that someone might make a decision based on musical preference. The Dave(Stock or System) maybe being better suited for classical, jazz, acoustic, etc. and the Bartok possibly better for pop, EDM, Electronic, etc. Still, that division makes me itch. I think, of a truth, you really need both of what they offer for all genres. I don't want to lose dynamic mass, esp. on large orchestral scores, and I'm loathe to give up transparency even if I'm listening to Deadmau5.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if i'm the only one that's getting a bit of mixed feelings from you  You seem to consider Bartok clearly superior vs the Dave in it's default state and have doubts even a modded Dave can hope to equal it, yet that wasn't the impression from your initial post.
   So what gives? Why not cut your losses instead of continuing to try and improve Dave?


----------



## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> I'm not sure if i'm the only one that's getting a bit of mixed feelings from you  You seem to consider Bartok clearly superior vs the Dave in it's default state and have doubts even a modded Dave can hope to equal it, yet that wasn't the impression from your initial post.
> So what gives? Why not cut your losses instead of continuing to try and improve Dave?



I'm not sure what gave you the impression that I doubt a modded Dave can equal a Bartok in the terms I've laid out. When I phrase things like "you really need both of what they offer," I don't mean to equivocate. I've been clear that I've found "both" (density and transparency) in the Dave (System). 

For myself, I can put it clearly: Dave (System) > Bartok > Dave (Stock). That delta only keeps widening as I happily continue to try to improve Dave. But, that's clear–for me.

The sense of "mixed feelings" are out of empathy for others who will be coming from a whole complex of different angles and may feel the exact opposite. That's why I've also stressed that between Dave (System) and Bartok (AIO) it is a case of "pick your poison." I'm just trying to let you know the taste of each and the practicalities at the apothecary. For me, yeah, I can say it again, it's death by Dave.


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> I'm not sure what gave you the impression that I doubt a modded Dave can equal a Bartok in the terms I've laid out. When I phrase things like "you really need both of what they offer," I don't mean to equivocate. I've been clear that I've found "both" (density and transparency) in the Dave (System).
> 
> For myself, I can put it clearly: Dave (System) > Bartok > Dave (Stock). That delta only keeps widening as I happily continue to try to improve Dave. But, that's clear–for me.
> 
> The sense of "mixed feelings" are out of empathy for others who will be coming from a whole complex of different angles and may feel the exact opposite. That's why I've also stressed that between Dave (System) and Bartok (AIO) it is a case of "pick your poison." I'm just trying to let you know the taste of each and the practicalities at the apothecary. For me, yeah, I can say it again, it's death by Dave.


Any more details  on what the System entails and relative importance? For example i get the M-scaler, even the M-scaler tweaks, even though it isn't mentioned as much i can see for myself the profound impact of mains filtering (in my case), but i can't for the life of me get on board with reclockers and streamers. 
    I did notice a big difference when streaming from a non-exclusive mode (Like wassapi) application vs exclusive one. I kinda think that's the huge difference people are talking about.


----------



## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> Any more details  on what the System entails and relative importance? For example i get the M-scaler, even the M-scaler tweaks, even though it isn't mentioned as much i can see for myself the profound impact of mains filtering (in my case), but i can't for the life of me get on board with reclockers and streamers.
> I did notice a big difference when streaming from a non-exclusive mode (Like wassapi) application vs exclusive one. I kinda think that's the huge difference people are talking about.



I'll follow up with more information. At present, I'm puzzling over a more granular problem with some capacitors in a power supply. 

I'm sure you're aware but the "A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming" at AS is a treasure trove of information on all of this. The only problem is that there's so much information: 700 pages and counting. It's worth searching and researching there though.


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> It's worth searching and researching there though.


I can't say i agree, seems like pseudoscience peddled by corporate shills to me, but to each his own. They should get a regular person and do some blind tests to see if they can distinguish between 90% the crap they're peddling, that's the real test  . 
    Billie Eilish mixes her tracks on 200$ monitors and a Macbook but somehow you need a Taiko Extreme server for "the Ultimate reproduction ". Not to mention the state of ADC's compared to Dave. No offense but to me those people are certifiably insane.


----------



## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> I can't say i agree, seems like pseudoscience peddled by corporate shills to me, but to each his own. They should get a regular person and do some blind tests to see if they can distinguish between 90% the crap they're peddling, that's the real test  .
> Billie Eilish mixes her tracks on 200$ monitors and a Macbook but somehow you need a Taiko Extreme server for "the Ultimate reproduction ". Not to mention the state of ADC's compared to Dave. No offense but to me those people are certifiably insane.



You're talking about the Yamaha HS5s, I take it. 

I can tell you DAW stems that she sent to the mastering engineer went through north of a 100K of gear before it reached distribution.


----------



## Amberlamps

All I see in this thread is £££££s and more £££££s and some e-peen.

It's ok though, as I will be keeping it real in the TT2 and MScaler threads for folk who have to stick to a pretty expensive budget.


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> You're talking about the Yamaha HS5s, I take it.
> 
> I can tell you DAW stems that she sent to the mastering engineer went through north of a 100K of gear before it reached distribution.


Yet most artists don't spend "audiophile money " on their listening gear. We're getting off topic though, to each his own. Let's just say i'd happily give DCS my money before going down that path.


----------



## Articnoise

adrianm said:


> I'm not sure if i'm the only one that's getting a bit of mixed feelings from you  You seem to consider Bartok clearly superior vs the Dave in it's default state and have doubts even a modded Dave can hope to equal it, yet that wasn't the impression from your initial post.
> So what gives? Why not cut your losses instead of continuing to try and improve Dave?



Few things are truly black and white in reality and never when it comes to high fidelity. IOW, it’s possible to consider that Bartok for example is clearly superior to the Dave and still consider that Dave do some aspects clearly better.

The truth is that if I read an impression there the reviewer compare two or more SOTA gear and if they concludes that one is best on every sound aspect….I will not consider that reviewer very credible.


----------



## miketlse (Oct 3, 2020)

03029174 said:


> Was just making a point this company cut support for a new product after 1yr 3months. The iPhone argument doesn’t make sense and you probably know that deep down, but yes, I’d be pissed if my iPhone stopped working with a new OS after 1yr 3 months.
> 
> maybe Chord have been awesome since then, I haven’t bothered to look. but if I make someone do a little extra research about how Chord deal with driver obsolescence, maybe it helps someone, maybe not. Hope you enjoy yours


The Qute Ex was replaced by the 2Qute, which was then replaced by the Qutest.
https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/qute-ex/
Does the driver downloadable from that page, no longer work?
If not, maybe you need to update to a more recent version of OS - 2Qute and Qutest are compatible with OSX, but don't appear to need OSX drivers.
I assume that you have already been in touch via support@chordelectronics.co.uk , and that was where you received the info that no new updates to the drivers were available.


----------



## doraymon

The Lumin U1 Mini just arrived.
The connection and setup with Roon was a breeze, literally 20 seconds and everything is running smoothly. The U1 Mini and Dave where immediately recognized and automatically setup by Roon..
Kids finally sleeping, wife busy with Netflix... it's now or never! A glass of Single Malt Scotch, let the listening session start!


----------



## MatW (Oct 3, 2020)

doraymon said:


> The Lumin U1 Mini just arrived.
> The connection and setup with Roon was a breeze, literally 20 seconds and everything is running smoothly. The U1 Mini and Dave where immediately recognized and automatically setup by Roon..
> Kids finally sleeping, wife busy with Netflix... it's now or never! A glass of Single Malt Scotch, let the listening session start!


Congrats on the new equipment! You may want to update your signature... getting less simple   ..

There are some similarities with my setup: same screen (I think) and Dave. Enjoy! (O, and whisky...)


----------



## doraymon

MatW said:


> Congrats on the new equipment! You may want to update your signature... getting less simple   ..
> 
> There are some similarities with my setup: same screen (I think) and Dave. Enjoy! (O, and whisky...)


Updated!


----------



## mbj666

Yay my DAVE finally arrived after 2.5 months got it hooked up last night  happy days


----------



## doraymon

mbj666 said:


> Yay my DAVE finally arrived after 2.5 months got it hooked up last night  happy days


Lucky you, I envy you like someone who is watching Matrix for the first time...


----------



## ClicketEKlack

doraymon said:


> The Lumin U1 Mini just arrived.
> The connection and setup with Roon was a breeze, literally 20 seconds and everything is running smoothly. The U1 Mini and Dave where immediately recognized and automatically setup by Roon..
> Kids finally sleeping, wife busy with Netflix... it's now or never! A glass of Single Malt Scotch, let the listening session start!


Sweet setup! Theoretically, could you use the Lumin/Dave combo to stream Tidal MQA or would the Dave be required to unfold which it cannot do. For MQA detractors wanting to weigh in, I’m truly not interested in an MQA debate - this is simply a technical question. Thanks!


----------



## doraymon

ClicketEKlack said:


> Sweet setup! Theoretically, could you use the Lumin/Dave combo to stream Tidal MQA or would the Dave be required to unfold which it cannot do. For MQA detractors wanting to weigh in, I’m truly not interested in an MQA debate - this is simply a technical question. Thanks!


Yes it works.


----------



## ClicketEKlack

doraymon said:


> Yes it works.



Fantastic - thanks!


----------



## adrianm

doraymon said:


> The Lumin U1 Mini just arrived.
> The connection and setup with Roon was a breeze, literally 20 seconds and everything is running smoothly. The U1 Mini and Dave where immediately recognized and automatically setup by Roon..
> Kids finally sleeping, wife busy with Netflix... it's now or never! A glass of Single Malt Scotch, let the listening session start!


So are you also in the camp that swears by improvements from using a streamer with Dave? If not you could just return the Lumin for one of these...
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/a...-nano-ips-curved-monitor-w-05ms-response-time


----------



## doraymon

adrianm said:


> So are you also in the camp that swears by improvements from using a streamer with Dave? If not you could just return the Lumin for one of these...
> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/a...-nano-ips-curved-monitor-w-05ms-response-time


Lol. That's a hell of a monitor!
If I come back home with another toy my wife will divorce me. So please, stop tempting me with expensive stuff!


----------



## musickid

The financial means being available to me next year to add the mscaler and new headphone to the dave is what finally unlocked this puzzle for me and gave me the confidence to go ahead with a dave. I've been told 2 weeks yet it's been quoted 2.5 months here so does anyone know a realistic waiting time for a new silver dave?


----------



## Amberlamps

doraymon said:


> The Lumin U1 Mini just arrived.
> The connection and setup with Roon was a breeze, literally 20 seconds and everything is running smoothly. The U1 Mini and Dave where immediately recognized and automatically setup by Roon..
> Kids finally sleeping, wife busy with Netflix... it's now or never! A glass of Single Malt Scotch, let the listening session start!



Roon in Black mode is much nicer looking


----------



## Triode User

I heard that they were running stocks down because Dave 2 is coming out in December.


Only joking! Hope you get it soon.


----------



## Amberlamps

musickid said:


> The financial means being available to me next year to add the mscaler and new headphone to the dave is what finally unlocked this puzzle for me and gave me the confidence to go ahead with a dave. I've been told 2 weeks yet it's been quoted 2.5 months here so does anyone know a realistic waiting time for a new silver dave?



The normal waiting time is 1 month as they build them to order. Whether thats correct I don't know, but I've seen / heard from peeps that 4 weeks is a rough guide.

I hope you haven't gave a store your tt2 and mscaler upfront, as in these bad times, you could waken up to the store under administration and your gear up for sale on ebay.


----------



## doraymon

Amberlamps said:


> Roon in Black mode is much nicer looking


I can't read bright text on dark background, it gives me artefacts in the vision (like stripes impressed for a few seconds).
And before you ask, no, I'm not under the influence...


----------



## edwardsean

Triode User said:


> Only joking! Hope you get it soon.



...deep exhale


----------



## kenray536

Jawed said:


> Unfortunately there have been quite a lot of DAVEs in recent times that seem to have a manufacturing problem. This makes them ultra-sensitive to the quality of connection over BNC resulting in clicking noises and distortion/noise. You can check this either by trying the "single BNC" output on the back of BLU 2 into DAVE (using just a single BNC cable, disconnect the other) or by connecting your CD player or streaming source to DAVE directly. DAVE is very likely to work correctly then.
> 
> If so, this is a repair/swap fix. I've not seen a detailed explanation for why some DAVEs have had this problem.



Just got an mscaler and I am noticing this issue with my Dave. I get drop outs and also static on the right channel. If I don’t use the full dual BNC resolution it works fine. Dual BNC3 seems to not drop as much as Dual BNC1.

Contacted my dealer and he said we will need to send my Dave to the service center in California but they are backed up right now. He suggested holding onto the Dave until they clear some of their backlog.

As anyone had to send their Dave into a California service center?

How long did the process take? 
How long are you without Dave?

Did Chord cover all postage and insurance or would I be responsible for that?

Thanks


----------



## hmartin

kenray536 said:


> Just got an mscaler and I am noticing this issue with my Dave. I get drop outs and also static on the right channel. If I don’t use the full dual BNC resolution it works fine. Dual BNC3 seems to not drop as much as Dual BNC1.
> 
> Contacted my dealer and he said we will need to send my Dave to the service center in California but they are backed up right now. He suggested holding onto the Dave until they clear some of their backlog.
> 
> ...


I had simular problems with the stock cables but 0 problems with Supra trico and Wave cables.


----------



## kenray536

hmartin said:


> I had simular problems with the stock cables but 0 problems with Supra trico and Wave cables.



Thanks for the info, I may see if I can try different Cables before sending in my Dave. My dealer said to check back in 3 weeks so o have some time.

So you were getting intermittent drop outs with the stock cables? When this happens I see the bitrate flash on the Dave screen on occasion. 

We’re you getting any static as well?
How old is your Dave?


----------



## hmartin

kenray536 said:


> Thanks for the info, I may see if I can try different Cables before sending in my Dave. My dealer said to check back in 3 weeks so o have some time.
> 
> So you were getting intermittent drop outs with the stock cables? When this happens I see the bitrate flash on the Dave screen on occasion.
> 
> ...


I ordered more or less directly on release, but delivery was long a few monthes atleast. 

It sounded nasty but only when it was going back and forth between dual BNC. Basically what was happening was that the connector seems to be of low quality on the stock cables so if I very carfully inserted the cables etc etc I could get a good connection without any nasty sounds. But anything like inserting headphones etc would make the stock cables come lose and start the problem again.

But it can very well be that your Dave needs service/exchange, but I have heard quite a few people report that they have had problems with the stock cables so it is worth considering at least.


----------



## Progisus

The stock cables on my mscaler gave me dropouts. The connection is just not that great. Please try different cables.


----------



## kenray536

Progisus said:


> The stock cables on my mscaler gave me dropouts. The connection is just not that great. Please try different cables.



Thanks for the feedback everyone. I will look into some much nicer cables. Bank account is hurting pretty bad after the latest purchases...but who needs to eat right?! LOL


----------



## kenray536

hmartin said:


> I ordered more or less directly on release, but delivery was long a few monthes atleast.
> 
> It sounded nasty but only when it was going back and forth between dual BNC. Basically what was happening was that the connector seems to be of low quality on the stock cables so if I very carfully inserted the cables etc etc I could get a good connection without any nasty sounds. But anything like inserting headphones etc would make the stock cables come lose and start the problem again.
> 
> But it can very well be that your Dave needs service/exchange, but I have heard quite a few people report that they have had problems with the stock cables so it is worth considering at least.



Thanks I will definitely give it a try. I bought my Dave and Mscaler with me to work today, I'm going to play with it some more right now.


----------



## ecwl

kenray536 said:


> Just got an mscaler and I am noticing this issue with my Dave. I get drop outs and also static on the right channel. If I don’t use the full dual BNC resolution it works fine. Dual BNC3 seems to not drop as much as Dual BNC1.
> 
> Contacted my dealer and he said we will need to send my Dave to the service center in California but they are backed up right now. He suggested holding onto the Dave until they clear some of their backlog.
> 
> ...



Before you send anything back to Chord, just wanted to make sure something about your setup.
You're feeding your source via Toslink into M-Scaler? And there is nothing else connected to the M-Scaler? Because sometimes, the problem is a ground loop with low level noise leaking from your source to into the M-Scaler into DAVE causing the drops.
Most DAVE dual BNC1 drops way more than BNC3 so I think most of us use BNC3&4 with DAVE. And you're sure you didn't reverse BNC 3&4...


----------



## number1sixerfan (Oct 6, 2020)

kenray536 said:


> Just got an mscaler and I am noticing this issue with my Dave. I get drop outs and also static on the right channel. If I don’t use the full dual BNC resolution it works fine. Dual BNC3 seems to not drop as much as Dual BNC1.
> 
> Contacted my dealer and he said we will need to send my Dave to the service center in California but they are backed up right now. He suggested holding onto the Dave until they clear some of their backlog.
> 
> ...



Your issue seems slightly different than mine, but just be sure it's the Dave. I have insane dropout issues with the Mscaler with a usb connection to the source. Had the same issue with the Hugo 2. It's really frustrating and annoying but thankfully I don't have any issue with optical. Good luck.



ecwl said:


> Before you send anything back to Chord, just wanted to make sure something about your setup.
> You're feeding your source via Toslink into M-Scaler? And there is nothing else connected to the M-Scaler? Because sometimes, the problem is a ground loop with low level noise leaking from your source to into the M-Scaler into DAVE causing the drops.
> Most DAVE dual BNC1 drops way more than BNC3 so I think most of us use BNC3&4 with DAVE. And you're sure you didn't reverse BNC 3&4...



If this is the case, what's the best way to get rid of the issue?


----------



## doraymon

Progisus said:


> The connection is just not that great


The two Toslink for OPT are not that great as well. Even the Toslink port on my gaming PC has a tighter hold on the cables...
Why complain guys, come on! It's only a 10k$ DAC...


----------



## ekfc63 (Oct 6, 2020)

Progisus said:


> The stock cables on my mscaler gave me dropouts. The connection is just not that great. Please try different cables.



Same as he said.  I do wonder why it comes with substandard cables.


----------



## kenray536

ekfc63 said:


> Same as he said.  I do wonder what it comes with substandard cables.



For those with the drop outs on the standard cables. Did you get the drop outs at lower bitrates as well? 

I get mine only if using the max filter to go to 705 or 768. If I use the Blue filter I get no skipping. That one is only 192 kHz so it’s using less bandwidth.


----------



## sm60 (Oct 6, 2020)

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I think Electrostatics have great speed and openness which I love but as pointed out their frequency response tends to fall off in the bottom register and the top register unfortunately.
> 
> I think companies like Kef should be congratulated in overcoming many transducer shortcomings over the years from coaxial (high/mid) drivers to dual-concentric bass drivers and state of the art flat-frequency response. The thing which pleases me the most though from that speaker review is a redesign of the tweeter in their coaxial which imo was too wide-dispersion on previous models (which included the Blade and Reference series) and lacked focus. I owned the previous Kef Reference series to the current one and that tweeter was far more focussed (and more to my taste).
> 
> ...



Many decades ago, Peter Walker, the “Quad-father” lamented that people used frequency responses to judge how good a speaker sounds, inferring like you are from these plots that the Kef Blade 2 must be superior to the Quad 2912 electrostatics. To show you the extreme fallacy of such arguments, one can trivially flatten the response of any loudspeaker these days with DSP room correction so that it is in fact flatter than the Kef Blade 2. If you think this solves the problem of loudspeaker design, I’d like to sell you some real estate in Florida!

Stereophile measurements are largely a joke. John Atkinson measures what he can, and ignores countless other parameters that are an even bigger factor in how a loudspeaker sounds. For example, he rarely if ever measures the (typically huge) distortion in any moving coil loudspeaker, or their phase accuracy, because they are typically so bad. Many speakers exhibit 5-10% harmonic distortion, millions of times worse than even a $50 Blu Ray player from Walmart.  Yet he will almost comically measure the distortion of a CD player or DAC, lamenting that this DAC has only -120dB linearity when in truth the headphones or loudspeakers he uses to audition the DAC has a million times higher distortion. This is a textbook example of pseudo science. His measurements make you think this is scientific, when it’s largely a fraud.

Harbeth’s loudspeakers are revered the world over for their lack of midrange coloration, yet if you look at the measurement of the Harbeth Monitor 40.1 in Stereophile,it’s worse than the Kef Blade. Does that make the Harbeth a worse speaker? Not a chance. Play a recording of any music with voices. I’ll bet you a billion dollars the Harbeth has more natural voice reproduction than the Kef. Alan Shaw spent many years working with material science researchers at a university in England figuring out the right cone material to reduce midrange coloration, the bane of almost any loudspeaker, from a $100 Best Buy model to a $500,000 Magico model. No simple frequency response measurement will show you why Harbeth models are infinitely superior to the Kef in voice reproduction. It has to do with measuring a certain type of Young’s modulus coefficient, for which Shaw and his team had to invent a new instrument.

I prefer the sound of almost any electrostatic loudspeaker to almost any moving coil, like the Kef, for the simple reason that you get such a huge leap in transparency, lack of distortion, no energy storage due to the high mass of the cone, no boxy effects from the cabinet, and a hundred other reasons (the electrostatics are far less likely to excite room modes, since they have controlled directivity). Only exception I make are Harbeth speakers. Even though they have a lot of moving coil problems, their voice reproduction is matchless in my 35+ years of experience listening to hundreds of high end speakers.


----------



## Thenewguy007

sm60 said:


> I prefer the sound of almost any electrostatic loudspeaker to almost any moving coil, like the Kef, for the simple reason that you get such a huge leap in transparency, lack of distortion, no energy storage due to the high mass of the cone, no boxy effects from the cabinet, and a hundred other reasons (the electrostatics are far less likely to excite room modes, since they have controlled directivity). Only exception I make are Harbeth speakers. Even though they have a lot of moving coil problems, their voice reproduction is matchless in my 35+ years of experience listening to hundreds of high end speakers.



What electrostatic speakers would you recommended as a alterantive to the Harbeth?


----------



## ecwl

number1sixerfan said:


> Your issue seems slightly different than mine, but just be sure it's the Dave. I have insane dropout issues with the Mscaler with a usb connection to the source. Had the same issue with the Hugo 2. It's really frustrating and annoying but thankfully I don't have any issue with optical. Good luck.
> 
> 
> 
> If this is the case, what's the best way to get rid of the issue?


If you run into the problem with USB but not Toslink as a source, then the solutions are to:
1) Ground your source
2) Ground the M-Scaler (potentially with some compromise to the sound., but I'm really not sure)

And if you don't want to make your own grounding cable, and your stereo dealer wouldn't make you one, the easiest way to ground the source/M-Scaler is just to buy iFi Groundhog
https://ifi-audio.com/products/groundhog/
The real downside in my mind is that it takes up yet another power socket on your power bar. Because there is no point grounding the source/M-Scaler really far away as you're trying to lower the ground loop impedance. So you have to plug it in the closest power bar.
I think rarely, this solution doesn't work and you actually have to ground the network router or cable modem where your Ethernet comes in. But that's usually rare I think.


----------



## number1sixerfan

ecwl said:


> If you run into the problem with USB but not Toslink as a source, then the solutions are to:
> 1) Ground your source
> 2) Ground the M-Scaler (potentially with some compromise to the sound., but I'm really not sure)
> 
> ...



Really appreciate this. I'll first try a more high quality usb cord and if not I'll go this route. Thank you!


----------



## adrianm

Apparently What Hi-Fi has recently decided to add measurements to their articles and here they test an expensive server/streamer vs a Surface pro and surprise surprise...the Aurender introduced more noise than a surface running on battery :
https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/aurender-acs10
Now sure, it's no Innuos, and it has massive hdds,  but i look forward to more measurements of servers and streamers.


----------



## musickid (Oct 7, 2020)

Optical direct from an imac (ssd) running roon or an ipod touch 7th gen. roon endpoint battery powered into dave as a usb source? Which of these 2 sources does everyone think would bring about optimal results with dave?


----------



## adrianm

musickid said:


> Optical direct from an imac (ssd) running roon or an ipod touch 7th gen. roon endpoint battery powered into dave as a usb source? Which of these 2 sources does everyone think would bring about optimal results with dave?


 I've compared optical out of a gaming pc connected to ethernet vs a battery powered 2020 Macbook pro 16 on usb with a Jitterbug and optical still sounds better. Then again i haven't tested expensive streamers at home, but i'm still finding no reason to going by in store tests and common sense. Ymmv.


----------



## musickid

do new dave dacs have the flat screen now?


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

musickid said:


> do new dave dacs have the flat screen now?


My ex-demo DAVE I received just a few days ago was made in mid 2019 and it has the flat glass screen and the small remote and no etching on the back for the inputs and outputs.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

My DAVE and M Scaler arrived on Monday.   

This is now my little Chord Electronics Choral UK Speaker and Headphone System Stack on a lovely Aspire Rack. 

Sonic Bliss !


----------



## adrianm

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> My ex-demo DAVE I received just a few days ago was made in mid 2019 and it has the flat glass screen and the small remote and no etching on the back for the inputs and outputs.






Mine was made 2.5-3 months ago but it does have etchings on the back. I wasn't aware the screen was ever not flat or that there was another remote (people always complained about it and it seems fine to me)


----------



## kenray536

adrianm said:


> Mine was made 2.5-3 months ago but it does have etchings on the back. I wasn't aware the screen was ever not flat or that there was another remote (people always complained about it and it seems fine to me)



Based on what I've seen in threads, I thought all of the newer Daves had etchings on the back?
I never knew about the non-flat screen either. I'm gonna dig through the thread, but anyone have pics of the non-flat screen or older remote?


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

adrianm said:


> Mine was made 2.5-3 months ago but it does have etchings on the back. I wasn't aware the screen was ever not flat or that there was another remote (people always complained about it and it seems fine to me)


I believe the early DAVE's had the larger multi-functional Chord remote and a slightly domed screen and also no etching on the back for the inputs and outputs.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

The old remote on the LHS and the new smaller remote on the RHS !


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

And a nice set of Chord remotes collected since 2012 !


----------



## kenray536

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> My DAVE and M Scaler arrived on Monday.
> 
> This is now my little Chord Electronics Choral UK Speaker and Headphone System Stack on a lovely Aspire Rack.
> 
> Sonic Bliss !



Thanks for the pics of the old vs new remote.

Awesome setup...very nicely done!


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

kenray536 said:


> Thanks for the pics of the old vs new remote.
> 
> Awesome setup...very nicely done!


Thank you kenray536 for your kind words.  Much appreciated. 👍


----------



## mbj666

hi all

got my DAVE into my system and am wanting to get a decent power cable for it (currently using a NAIM powerline which made a nice difference but am wanting to free that up to put on my NAP250)

been looking at the audioquest powerlines, namely thunder, tornado source or maybe hurricane source

reason for audio quest is plan on getting a Niagara 1200/3000 power filter unit and know they are meant to work best when combined

curious if any one has any experience with these cables with DAVE and or the associated Niagara unit?

appreciate peeps views/suggestions 

thanks


----------



## Triode User

mbj666 said:


> hi all
> 
> got my DAVE into my system and am wanting to get a decent power cable for it (currently using a NAIM powerline which made a nice difference but am wanting to free that up to put on my NAP250)
> 
> ...



Can I ask how much these power cables cost?


----------



## Hooster

mbj666 said:


> hi all
> 
> got my DAVE into my system and am wanting to get a decent power cable for it (currently using a NAIM powerline which made a nice difference but am wanting to free that up to put on my NAP250)
> 
> ...



I doubt a power cable will make much difference but if you want one I suggest you make your own. Why? It should be cheaper. You will have some fun. You can get exactly the cable and connectors you want. You can decide exactly how long the cable will be. 
Companies like Furutech and Oyaide make excellent cables and connectors.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> Can I ask how much these power cables cost?


Let's just say they make Wave cables look cheap


----------



## Uncle Monty

mbj666 said:


> hi all
> 
> got my DAVE into my system and am wanting to get a decent power cable for it (currently using a NAIM powerline which made a nice difference but am wanting to free that up to put on my NAP250)
> 
> ...


Have you tried MCRU (Mains Cables R Us) in Yorkshire? I'm using an MCRU Ultimate (I think - might be a No.7) into my DAVE from a Niagra 1200 and they do all the other main culprits as well as their own - many good deals too and I'm sure they'd let you try something out. The chap who runs it is a typical gruff Yorkshireman but a pleasure to deal with.

https://www.mcru.co.uk/product-category/mains-products/page/5/?orderby=price-desc


----------



## mbj666

Discounted cable would be around 600-upto 1100 for the really expensive one (not m scaler money before it gets suggested  ) 

Reason Is more for their synergy with the niagara mains filtration unit 

Will take a look at mcru used one of theirs in past


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> Let's just say they make Wave cables look cheap



I was asking because I advised another Head-fi member @edwardsean to seriously consider not buying a mains cable for Dave but instead to consider a replacement Sean Jacobs power supply for the Dave. I think he is pleased that he went down the Sean Jacobs power supply route instead of the mains cable route. Now that I have tagged him he might even drop by to venture an opinion.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> I was asking because I advised another Head-fi member @edwardsean to seriously consider not buying a mains cable for Dave but instead to consider a replacement Sean Jacobs power supply for the Dave. I think he is pleased that he went down the Sean Jacobs power supply route instead of the mains cable route. Now that I have tagged him he might even drop by to venture an opinion.


That does make sense, i'm curious as to whether the Power Supply would also take the mains filtration out of the equation, or if they work in tandem somehow


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> That does make sense, i'm curious as to whether the Power Supply would also take the mains filtration out of the equation, or if they work in tandem somehow



I run my Dave and Mscaler on two separate Sean Jacobs power supplies and to me they are totally immune to mains cables or other mains filtration etc. There are a few of us doing this on here now so they may comment or keep their heads below the parapet!


----------



## edwardsean

Triode User said:


> I was asking because I advised another Head-fi member @edwardsean to seriously consider not buying a mains cable for Dave but instead to consider a replacement Sean Jacobs power supply for the Dave. I think he is pleased that he went down the Sean Jacobs power supply route instead of the mains cable route. Now that I have tagged him he might even drop by to venture an opinion.



Power conditioning/cables is probably one of the more variable quantities here, depending on the nature of your grid. 

If you'll recall, I also ended up getting a power cable that costs the same amount as the upgraded Sean Jacobs DC3. That cable, Synergistic Research Atmosphere Level 3, is a fabulous cable. As great as the Sean Jacobs is with its power filtering, the SR cable still improves it. The sound is significantly cleaner, smoother, more refined; noise floor drops, details emerge, soundstage expands. So, the power cable is a–major–enhancement of what the DC3 does. I wouldn't want to be without it.  

Nevertheless, The DC3 is more essential and has a more transformative effect. If anyone is choosing between putting money into power conditioning vs. power supply, @Triode User is right, the choice is clearly in favor of the latter. 

if the DAC is the mind of your sound system and the amp is beating heart, the power supply is the guts. You have to mind intake, but performance will be dictated by how well it is able to metabolize it Into energy.


----------



## jcn3

mbj666 said:


> hi all
> 
> got my DAVE into my system and am wanting to get a decent power cable for it (currently using a NAIM powerline which made a nice difference but am wanting to free that up to put on my NAP250)
> 
> ...



The AQ Thunder is a very big cable - too big for a Dave (believe me I tried it). IMO, the Thunder is best for amps or from the 1200 to the wall (that's how I use the two I have)


----------



## iDesign (Oct 8, 2020)

kenray536 said:


> Based on what I've seen in threads, I thought all of the newer Daves had etchings on the back?
> I never knew about the non-flat screen either. I'm gonna dig through the thread, but anyone have pics of the non-flat screen or older remote?


For photos, see page two of this thread. Remotes explained here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-957#post-15580615


----------



## mbj666

Triode User said:


> I run my Dave and Mscaler on two separate Sean Jacobs power supplies and to me they are totally immune to mains cables or other mains filtration etc. There are a few of us doing this on here now so they may comment or keep their heads below the parapet!



which versions do you run his DC3 or the DC4 one ?


----------



## Glossator

Triode User said:


> I run my Dave and Mscaler on two separate Sean Jacobs power supplies and to me they are totally immune to mains cables or other mains filtration etc. There are a few of us doing this on here now so they may comment or keep their heads below the parapet!


I have been having an internal battle re a DC4 - and, so far, have held off because the cables (Shunyata - Alpha and UK6 + 'old' Sigma) I currently use seem to make such a difference that the cost of retaining them and acquiring a DC4 seems a bit bonkers (clearly, very much a personal decision in the wallet pain level stakes - I appreciate there is no right or wrong).    I had wondered if I could sell what I have to, effectively, fund a DC4 (conceptually it would make sense, based on my limited understanding).   

However, I am running an Opto DX (forgive me, Nick!) on a DC3 and tried taking either that or the DAVE off the UK6 (which otherwise runs the DAVE and the DC3 - nothing else) - neither experiment worked well.    I concluded that such filtration as the Shunyata provides was key to the DAVE/Opto DX performance.    Now, it may very well be that I was wrong, that the DC3 would provide the DC3/Opto DX sufficient protection from nasties and that it is the DAVE itself that is extremely sensitive - and that if the DAVE were run on a DC4 the need for the Shunyata to shelter the DAVE from would then, logically, be mains nasties would fall away. 

 If others have experience of a DC4 sufficing on its own (particularly if they use the Opto DX system from a HMS) I would be very interested to hear about it and extremely grateful for any thoughts (by PM if anyone feels more comfortable that way).   Thank you (hopefully)!


----------



## Triode User (Oct 8, 2020)

Glossator said:


> I have been having an internal battle re a DC4 - and, so far, have held off because the cables (Shunyata - Alpha and UK6 + 'old' Sigma) I currently use seem to make such a difference that the cost of retaining them and acquiring a DC4 seems a bit bonkers (clearly, very much a personal decision in the wallet pain level stakes - I appreciate there is no right or wrong).    I had wondered if I could sell what I have to, effectively, fund a DC4 (conceptually it would make sense, based on my limited understanding).
> 
> However, I am running an Opto DX (forgive me, Nick!) on a DC3 and tried taking either that or the DAVE off the UK6 (which otherwise runs the DAVE and the DC3 - nothing else) - neither experiment worked well.    I concluded that such filtration as the Shunyata provides was key to the DAVE/Opto DX performance.    Now, it may very well be that I was wrong, that the DC3 would provide the DC3/Opto DX sufficient protection from nasties and that it is the DAVE itself that is extremely sensitive - and that if the DAVE were run on a DC4 the need for the Shunyata to shelter the DAVE from would then, logically, be mains nasties would fall away.
> 
> If others have experience of a DC4 sufficing on its own (particularly if they use the Opto DX system from a HMS) I would be very interested to hear about it and extremely grateful for any thoughts (by PM if anyone feels more comfortable that way).   Thank you (hopefully)!



I can give you some insight but probably best if I message you a reply.


----------



## doraymon

adrianm said:


> Mine was made 2.5-3 months ago but it does have etchings on the back. I wasn't aware the screen was ever not flat or that there was another remote (people always complained about it and it seems fine to me)


Ah, no, I recognize that Dave. It's the faulty one I sent back to Chord last year.
They must have refurbished it and sold it to you as new...


----------



## adrianm

doraymon said:


> Ah, no, I recognize that Dave. It's the faulty one I sent back to Chord last year.
> They must have refurbished it and sold it to you as new...


Yes but they upgraded it with a custom power supply , on the house


----------



## Triode User

mbj666 said:


> which versions do you run his DC3 or the DC4 one ?



I had the DC3 version which I loved but then got enticed further down the rabbit hole by the DC4 and I think I have the first production version DC4. Sean has told me that he is completing a few back orders for DC3 Dave units but after that the only new option is a DC4 power supply for the Dave because he has decided to discontinue the DC3. 

So I would say if you can afford a DC4 you will not regret it but otherwise look out for a second hand DC3 for the Dave. They do occasionally come up but are snapped up pretty quickly.


----------



## edwardsean

Triode User said:


> I had the DC3 version which I loved but then got enticed further down the rabbit hole by the DC4 and I think I have the first production version DC4. Sean has told me that he is completing a few back orders for DC3 Dave units but after that the only new option is a DC4 power supply for the Dave because he has decided to discontinue the DC3.
> 
> So I would say if you can afford a DC4 you will not regret it but otherwise look out for a second hand DC3 for the Dave. They do occasionally come up but are snapped up pretty quickly.



That's really interesting. Do you know if Vassil will continue to build DC3s or if Sean is completely retiring the design?


----------



## Triode User

edwardsean said:


> That's really interesting. Do you know if Vassil will continue to build DC3s or if Sean is completely retiring the design?



I spoke to Sean this morning just to make sure before I posted and it seems he is retiring the DC3 for Dave when current parts are exhausted (soon) because the popularity of the DC4 means he does not have the capacity to run the two ranges side by side. I am sure that people would still buy the DC3 because it was/is a great power supply but he has had to make a decision based on logistics.


----------



## Glossator

Triode User said:


> I can give you some insight but probably best if I message you a reply.


That would be v kind!   Thank you.


----------



## Hooster (Oct 9, 2020)

With respect to power supply and power cables, it would most likely be more cost effective and better to use a battery power supply rather than spending thousands of $ on trying to improve/compensate for dirty power coming out of the wall.

When a power cable costs $3000+ you have to start asking yourself if this solution makes any sense.

Ideally I believe components of DAVE caliber should have an external power supply and accept DC power into the box. The users can then decide for themselves how that DC power is provided.


----------



## adrianm

Hooster said:


> With respect to power supply and power cables, it would most likely be more cost effective and better to use a battery power supply rather than spending thousands of $ on trying to improve/compensate for dirty power coming out of the wall.
> 
> When a power cable costs $3000+ you have to start asking yourself if this solution makes any sense.
> 
> Ideally I believe components of DAVE caliber should have an external power supply and accept DC power into the box. The users can then decide for themselves how that DC power is provided.


None of this makes any sense, i still don't understand why spend even 1k on a power cable instead of a mains filter. As for the power supply replacement, even if i were to get one, there's always "you also need one for the M-scaler ". Why? as i understood it the M-scaler itself is the one creating most of the noise. I would just go for the opto tx for the m-scaler and call it a day.
   With all of this hassle i'm not even inclined to get the m-scaler anymore if it's that much of a headache. I'd rather spend all of that money on a Rolex, or other toys but maybe that's just me lol. 
   I am however curious how much time people listen to music on average per day that justifies the cost to them.


----------



## hmartin

adrianm said:


> None of this makes any sense, i still don't understand why spend even 1k on a power cable instead of a mains filter. As for the power supply replacement, even if i were to get one, there's always "you also need one for the M-scaler ". Why? as i understood it the M-scaler itself is the one creating most of the noise. I would just go for the opto tx for the m-scaler and call it a day.
> With all of this hassle i'm not even inclined to get the m-scaler anymore if it's that much of a headache. I'd rather spend all of that money on a Rolex, or other toys but maybe that's just me lol.
> I am however curious how much time people listen to music on average per day that justifies the cost to them.


Or you could just ignore all the ”you must have this tweak”-people, buy the mscaler and just enjoy music. While I think getting better cables is a good idea, I find supra bnc and power cables enough and they are not expensive.


----------



## JaZZ

I enjoyed the M Scaler long before I got the Wave Storm for it, although indeed the latter made the sound (even) more natural.

It's best to ignore the several «requirements» brought up on Head-fi. At least for now. If you page back to the early days of the Hugo M Scaler you'll clearly notice the enthusiasm it sparked then. Just the M Scaler – with stock PSU and dBNC cables.

Personally I'm very, very happy with my now configuration and will certainly not replace the DAVE's power supply or power cord or install a power regenerator. Enough is enough. Back to the music. Not the most typical attitude on a High-End section, but sometimes I have a hard time keeping pace with the ongoing restlessness and perpetual chase for improvements. Of course I'm still not completely immune to upgraditis and tweeking (rather in terms of headphone acoustics than electronics), but I'm getting older. Nevertheless, I'm glad to be where I am now – in terms of sound quality – and wouldn't want to go back.

This is not a criticism – I'm as guilty as everyone else. On the other hand my interest was and is mainly focussed on something that's virtually completely ignored around here: the correction of the acoustic amplitude response – with respect to sound transducers. In my book it's the criterion with the most striking effect on sound quality. Sadly it suffers from a typical attitude: it doesn't cost enough to be regarded as worth exploring, and you can't touch it and look at it as part of your personal audio altar. Plus it is time consuming. Therefore: important hi-fi criterion or not, we better occupy ourselves with more attractive criteria. That's not to say they do nothing, mind you! And I'm a big cable-sound poponent – just to show that the subjectivist side in me has a top-ranking.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

Didn't some time ago Rob Watts talk about the non need for expensive interconnect and power supply cables both for the DAVE and M Scaler as well as the other Chord Electronic DAC's and their immunity due to their design and manufacture to such upgrades !  
I'm sure there was a thread on this very topic somewhere in the HeadFi.org forum vault !


----------



## adrianm

hmartin said:


> Or you could just ignore all the ”you must have this tweak”-people, buy the mscaler and just enjoy music. While I think getting better cables is a good idea, I find supra bnc and power cables enough and they are not expensive.


I'm not saying i'll stick with the stock cables, but i'm highly skeptical of what 1k cables do better than 200 euros ones.


----------



## adrianm

JaZZ said:


> I enjoyed the M Scaler long before I got the Wave Storm for it, although indeed the latter made the sound (even) more natural.


Why didn't you get the Opto-DX? seems like a more efficient solution (Theoretically)


JaZZ said:


> Enough is enough. Back to the music.


Exactly.


----------



## Christer

adrianm said:


> None of this makes any sense, i still don't understand why spend even 1k on a power cable instead of a mains filter. As for the power supply replacement, even if i were to get one, there's always "you also need one for the M-scaler ". Why? as i understood it the M-scaler itself is the one creating most of the noise. I would just go for the opto tx for the m-scaler and call it a day.
> With all of this hassle i'm not even inclined to get the m-scaler anymore if it's that much of a headache. I'd rather spend all of that money on a Rolex, or other toys but maybe that's just me lol.
> I am however curious how much time people listen to music on average per day that justifies the cost to them.


Hmm, how often do you need to check what time it is?
And do you really need a Rolex to do it?
Cheers CC


----------



## adrianm

Christer said:


> Hmm, how often do you need to check what time it is?
> And do you really need a Rolex to do it?
> Cheers CC


No, it's  jewelry, not unlike 60% of a lot of audio shrines and cables. Do people really need 3-4 pairs of headphones?


----------



## Ragnar-BY

JaZZ said:


> I enjoyed the M Scaler long before I got the Wave Storm for it, although indeed the latter made the sound (even) more natural.



+1

Wave cables provided significant improvement and I love my system sound even more, but it does not mean that nobody could live without them.


----------



## JaZZ

adrianm said:


> Why didn't you get the Opto-DX? seems like a more efficient solution (Theoretically)



Yes, I seriously considered the OptoDX system, theoretically it may even be better than the Wave cables. It was just a decision against batteries – more exactly the charging ritual.


----------



## alxw0w (Oct 9, 2020)

JaZZ said:


> Yes, I seriously considered the OptoDX system, theoretically it may even be better than the Wave cables. It was just a decision against batteries – more exactly the charging ritual.


And cable salad on top of 4 boxes (two opto dx, two batteries or lps to power them) + m scaler + tt2.
NIGHTMARE


----------



## adrianm

https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile.../?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3


----------



## miketlse

adrianm said:


> Do people really need 3-4 pairs of headphones?


Yes, if they have 3 or 4 use-cases, for example:

home - a pair of closed backs (including for when my cat is getting freaked out by the music leaking out from open backs)
home - a pair of open backs or electrostats
home - a pair of good iems
work - a pair of closed backs with microphone, for conference calls
I have been thinking of getting rid of two or three pairs of headphones, to leave just this core 4 use cases.


----------



## adrianm

miketlse said:


> home - a pair of closed backs (including for when my cat is getting freaked out by the music leaking out from open backs)


LOL i'm in the same boat except i'm getting married to my "cat "
For the rest and gym i'm using the Airpods Pro


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Oct 9, 2020)

sm60 said:


> Many decades ago, Peter Walker, the “Quad-father” lamented that people used frequency responses to judge how good a speaker sounds, inferring like you are from these plots that the Kef Blade 2 must be superior to the Quad 2912 electrostatics. To show you the extreme fallacy of such arguments, one can trivially flatten the response of any loudspeaker these days with DSP room correction so that it is in fact flatter than the Kef Blade 2. If you think this solves the problem of loudspeaker design, I’d like to sell you some real estate in Florida!
> 
> Stereophile measurements are largely a joke. John Atkinson measures what he can, and ignores countless other parameters that are an even bigger factor in how a loudspeaker sounds. For example, he rarely if ever measures the (typically huge) distortion in any moving coil loudspeaker, or their phase accuracy, because they are typically so bad. Many speakers exhibit 5-10% harmonic distortion, millions of times worse than even a $50 Blu Ray player from Walmart.  Yet he will almost comically measure the distortion of a CD player or DAC, lamenting that this DAC has only -120dB linearity when in truth the headphones or loudspeakers he uses to audition the DAC has a million times higher distortion. This is a textbook example of pseudo science. His measurements make you think this is scientific, when it’s largely a fraud.
> 
> ...



sm60
"I prefer the sound of almost any electrostatic loudspeaker to almost any moving coil"

Good for you. You state what they are good at and I agree, though it doesn't correct what they are bad at. I think every transducer majors on something, as do most speaker models. I didn't buy the Blades because I felt that Kef had gone backwards in a couple of areas (Ultra wide dispersion being one) having owned their previous reference I felt I would have lost something but I still think it was a great technical accomplishment (achieving such a flat frequency response in a passive speaker without resorting to digital equalisation). This shouldn't be underestimated either because most speakers I have heard that are 'not flat' seem to compromise the dynamic response too when comparing the sound to the corresponding acoustic instrument.

Harbeths are great speakers for vocals I agree too sm60 but test the 40.1 with pop or rock music or blues (with a snare drum playing) and I think you will soon realise it is unbalanced in its time delivery. This is because Alan Shaw designed it with an 8" speaker for the mid frequencies. I have had the 40.1's in my room and whilst I was impressed in many other ways, it sounded to me like the drummer had a 'lazy snare arm' but hey vocals were great.

I like electrostatics. I like their speed and their clean delivery in particular but they tend to sound more like hifi to me in certain areas rather than sound like real music. This is because I find they lack weight for some instruments. Even a classical guitar, which has quite a percussive sound.

Horses for courses I guess. As long as our choices deliver what we like.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Oct 9, 2020)

On the wider subject of 'flat frequency and dynamics' I think the most important area of our system is our electrics. If they are not sorted it doesn't matter how much we spend on components they will not perform as they were designed to and bad electrics compromise frequency delivery, (even cheap fuses compromise frequency delivery) which in turn compromises dynamic delivery across the frequency range. - The two are inextricably linked imo.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

I am enjoying my Grado GS3000e's connected to my recently purchased Chord DAVE with DAVE connected to also my recently purchased Chord M Scaler which is a big sonic jump up from directly connecting my GS3000e's to my Hugo 2 (which was great before I heard the difference with the DAVE).  

I am just wondering if another headphone would give me even better sonic performance than the GS3000e's !  

Based on numerous online reviews, I am thinking of the Focal Utopia and Audeze LCD-4z (although the weight of the 4z may be an issue for me as per my experinece back in 2012 with the original LCD2 !).  

Anybody have some experiences with the Focal Utopia and Audeze LCD-4z with the Chord DAVE (ideally linked to the M Scaler) or any other headphone that matches well with the DAVE. 

I listen to all genres of music, however most of my listening time is on main stream contemporary rock, pop and R&B with a bit of light jazz and classical.


----------



## JTbbb

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> I am enjoying my Grado GS3000e's connected to my recently purchased Chord DAVE with DAVE connected to also my recently purchased Chord M Scaler which is a big sonic jump up from directly connecting my GS3000e's to my Hugo 2 (which was great before I heard the difference with the DAVE).
> 
> I am just wondering if another headphone would give me even better sonic performance than the GS3000e's !
> 
> ...



It’s probably seen as getting a bit old in the tooth these days, but I think the HD800S still takes some beating.


----------



## musickid

new limited gold edition out on the sennheiser website.


----------



## Triode User

musickid said:


> new limited gold edition out on the sennheiser website.



Well that’s a blow for Chord when Sennheiser beat them to getting out a Gold Limited Edition Dave!


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## ubs28

Triode User said:


> Well that’s a blow for Chord when Sennheiser beat them to getting out a Gold Limited Edition Dave!



Would have been wonderful with the new HD 800. The Silver Chord Dave is too bright with these headphones.


----------



## Peti

I'm wondering if the Dave has multi voltage input i.e. 120v and 220v so I can use the same unit both in the EU and the USA?


----------



## edwardsean

Peti said:


> I'm wondering if the Dave has multi voltage input i.e. 120v and 220v so I can use the same unit both in the EU and the USA?



As far as I know, it does.


----------



## Peti

That is certainly good news. I'm getting closer pulling the trigger on one.


----------



## Triode User

Peti said:


> I'm wondering if the Dave has multi voltage input i.e. 120v and 220v so I can use the same unit both in the EU and the USA?



Yes it definitely does. No adjustment needed. Just plug in wherever you are in the world.


----------



## doraymon

Triode User said:


> Yes it definitely does. No adjustment needed. Just plug in wherever you are in the world.


+1. The Dave has a switch mode power supply, I guess all SPS can accept any input voltage available in the world (110 to 230V) without any adjustment needed.


----------



## doraymon

I'm reporting back after a few days of using the Lumin U1 Mini with the Dave.

The setup was simply U1 Mini > [USB] Chord Dave > Focal Utopia, more details at the bottom for the gear-heads like me.
I compared this to the sound using my PC to stream music to the Dave via Optical (my favorite so far with Dave). To be honest I didn’t have big expectations considering the claimed “immunity” of Dave to jitter and, to some extent, to RF noise.

So I started the listening session with some electronic music (Rone's "Mirapolis") and at first I thought “mmmh, ok, no difference really”, but wait… that bass with the U1 is so much fuller and defined. Ok, good, let’s try something with more instruments in it.
With classic rock (The Rolling Stones "Blue & Lonesome" and Rory Gallagher's "Top Priority remastered 2017") the hints of a more realistic sound continued: snappier bass, increased soundstage depth, definitely more realistic instrument reproduction.
But it’s with live music, especially with piano and guitar, that the U1 Mini really blew the PC out of the water.
In Band of Horses’ “Acoustic at the Ryman”, with the Lumin each piano note felt richer, you could really tell there was “more music” in them, if that makes sense to you. I guess it might have something to do with a better transient reproduction or a lower noise floor? Experts please be merciful if I am not using the right words.

The U1 Mini also improved the feeling of space, I guess I can call it it a better soundstage depth, as opposed to a flatter presentation of the PC.
Final result? More realism, no doubt. I found myself tapping with my hands on the desk more often, and this is a good sign!

I am really enjoying this change to my setup. Is it worth almost 2k$? That is very subjective but now that I heard it, obviously I can't live without it, so...

The only issue I am having is that for some reasons the Lumin U1 Mini won't work with Dave at 192MHz through optical, while my gaming PC does that without any issues and with a simple Ugreen optical cable.
I purchased a Lifatec 3ft glass toslink cable just to see if that was the problem but it didn't make any difference. There you have it, another 150$ out of the window...

Other gear details:
Roon Core: NUC 10 i7 running as ROCK, with two SSDs (1 for OS, 1 for music storage)
The U1 Mini gets the Ethernet signal from a Netgear GS108 switch, powered by an iFi iPower 12V.
Cables: stock power cable for Dave, Audioquest NRG X3 3ft for the U1 Mini, Norne Audio Draug Silver 5ft for the headphones, QED Reference USB 1m.
All the power chords are connected to 3 x Opera Audio Consonance PW-1 Mains Filters, with the Dave and Lumin feeding from unfiltered plugs.


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## ubs28

I use an USB cleaner for the Chord Dave. I hear a difference and that is all that matters.


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## alxw0w (Oct 14, 2020)

Ok so here are a few of my words on switching from MTT2 to the Dave.

*Prologue*
Lets start that I was using Chord dacs for some time. Started like ~2 years ago with Mojo - which was bought with no expectations whatsoever.
I just needed small dac/amp to use it at work.
Mojo had been on my radar for some time but to be honest it was the stage when I underestimated it because of it's size and price which back then was seen by me as way too high for such "TOY" (sorry Chord, I'm pretty sure we all were that at some point of our audiophile "career" - good audio gear need to be heavy big, hot...)
Anyway I decided to try Mojo, and was surprised by its performance, Mojo was sounding different, then I couldn't put any word what the difference was. It was competing with the other big desktop gear that I had at that time.
Immediately I started to thinking how good Hugo 2 can be. Hugo TT and Dave were beyond my imagination as the price seemed to be just not for me (yeah right)

So after couple of months thinking about Hugo 2 I thought ok let's give it a try. Just compare it to my Audio-gd combo and if it's better I'll sell the audio gd to cover some cost of the hugo 2 - if not it will go back to the dealer (still the price was a bit repulsive).

My impressions of that can be found here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/post-14847081
From time perspective I'll add that Hugo 2 just walked over Audio GD combo.
*And from Hugo 2 I was sucked. *I was amazed how such small transportable thing could sound so amazing so different. I wanted more of that Chord sound. Nothing different just more, just gimme their top dacs.

*M Scaler + TT2 or Dave - what to choose ?*
Yup as I said I was sucked (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5CL4oaIpY8). After Hugo 2 and wanting more of that Chord sound I had some romance with TT1 (yes the first one). After that thank to @Ragnar-BY I switched to TT2 + M Scaler (damn you ragnar, you are part of this crazy journey )
And it was bliss. I couldn't be happier. The combo had everything it was perfect. I wasn't even thinking about Dave even if the price was similar why I should change it. My thinking was TT2 vs Dave is probably very close as the TT2 is a newer iteration of Chord (Dave is 5yo at that point) so adding M Scaler to the TT2 will just outclass solo Dave, wouldn't it ?
I was living for couple of months with my MTT2 combo and was happy. The only thing that was bothering me was BOXES and CABLES. I have tight space on my desk, and this space was going to shrink even more because of adding second monitor to allow me to work in better environment.

So naturally there were thoughts of maybe I should sell MTT2 and just go with the Dave - as it will simplify my setup under the desk and whats more important on the desk dramatically (simple power cable + toslink, no power bricks etc.)
It was very hard decision as on the internet there is very little comparisons if any of MTT2 vs Dave. I was afraid to lose everything that m scaler and tt2 combo was giving to me. On top of that I was using MTT2 combo for only like 4 months, so another change in such short period ? (dancing with the devil) Call me crazy I went full in, switched to solo Dave.
*And oh boy I can't be happier. *
Dave is just on another level. I'm not missing anything from the old combo (almost anything but more on that later). Dave has it all, crazy decay, crazy separation, transparency, clarity extension on both ends like nothing else.

Here are some main points of my feeling about Dave:
1. Dave sounds cooler than MTT2, but not harsh or anything just cooler/brighter.​2. Bass is better controlled. At the beginning it sounded thinner but with time you start to realize how much different instrument timber sound because of that, it also connects to the first point of Dave being cooler. It's amazingly controlled, not bloated wall of sound just fast punchy and reaching very deep. I had similar feeling when switching from TT1 to TT2. And here with TT2-Dave is another step.​3. Highs are extremely extended detailed and shiny, yet not harsh they won't cut your ears they are smooth at the same time.​_*Small side note here: I remember reading some high end gear reviews when reviewers were talking about that dac (not Dave, just general dacs) is bright and detailed on top. I couldn't understand how you can like bright dacs. It will always hurt your ears (especially on headphones). Now with the Dave I can fully understand how you can be addicted to extremely good treble. A lot of my previous lesser dacs had this harsh forced treble and I just thought that my ears don't like high frequencies although they sound in general was rather dark/muddied. I couldn't have been more wrong. I was just listening to wrong dacs. When treble is done properly it becomes addictive like low bass notes.*_​4. *Clarity* on Dave is.... I'm speechless. For me that's the strongest point of Dave. It amazed me I was overwhelmed how much clearer everything sounded. Every instrument every note is now separated from each other like never before. It's like MTT2 was already amazing but Dave is just different. Layers of music are so much separated. It's extremely well "visible" in complex music passages. Notes never sound congested/squashed into one waveform, everything exists on it's own layer. It must be heard. ​5. Quiet notes/instruments are much easier to spot. I'm sure it has something to noise shapers that Rob was talking about. Now quiet notes are more "visible" at the beginning it's like sound feels "compressed" (like louder instruments sound quieter and quiet instruments are louder). Really strange/bizzare experience. What is more strange that this quieter instruments are not only like quiet but also their image is smaller. Like you hear the 3D shape of the note in the space is smaller not only quieter, but at the same time its easier to spot details. Hard to explain, but I'm sure Dave users know what I'm talking about.​6. Spookiness. All above points connects to spooky experience. I remember reading about it in review of the Dave @ audiobacon.net site. I couldn't understand it. With good dac music sounds good, but with the Dave sometimes it sounds like you are there. I know it sounds like total cliche. But that's my feeling (and I'm not sure I'm not the only one). Instruments/notes on different tracks sometimes sound so spooky real. It's not even funny. I haven't experience this on MTT2 combo, not even once. Dave just sounds more convincing.​​The only two things that I'm missing from MTT2 combo are: power and smoothness. With power it's only on some tracks. I feel like TT2 was driving controlling better my headphones especially on high volume levels. But it's not always, only some tracks/albums. And the smoothness that flow that m scaler was giving is something I'm missing a bit. But still all above points make experience so good that I don't regret the change. *It was definitely worth it.

Epilogue*
So that pretty much sums all my feelings about the Dave. I know some of the things that I mention may sound like cliche to some people or like I'm exaggerating. Maybe I am but Dave is really different. All the philosophy that Rob is saying about his approach on dacs are connecting into one piece in the Dave - it really make full sense now. Currently I'm working from home so music is on my headphones for at least 8 hours per day. And I can't get enough. I'm not tired don't have any fatigue, just want to listen more and more.
If I knew that the Dave is such amazing kit I would buy it much earlier.
Cheers

ps. sorry for such long post and for any mistakes. Damn I should add some photos do a bit of rewriting some of the points and post it on review section on head fi


----------



## Triode User (Oct 14, 2020)

alxw0w said:


> Ok so here are a few of my words on switching from MTT2 to the Dave.
> 
> *Prologue*
> Lets start that I was using Chord dacs for some time. Started like ~2 years ago with Mojo - which was bought with no expectations whatsoever.
> ...



Nice!!!

and you will give reassurance to @musickid who is waiting for his solo Dave having handed in his TT2 / Mscaler.

Now you need to start saving to buy back an Mscaler  .


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> Nice!!!
> 
> and you will give reassurance to @musickid who is waiting for his solo Dave having handed in his TT2 / Mscaler.
> 
> Now you need to start saving to buy back an Mscaler  .


Just to think 2 months ago i was giving it to him  The last part is for both of us though.


----------



## alxw0w

Triode User said:


> Nice!!!
> 
> and you will give reassurance to @musickid who is waiting for his solo Dave having handed in his TT2 / Mscaler.
> 
> Now you need to start saving to buy back an Mscaler  .


It's more a matter of space than money now, I know I'm going to add m scaler in the future... I have already listened Dave with MScaler with Ragnar at his place. With Wave cables and all farads and ps audio power plant power supply chain. Two words sum it perfectly *smooth listening *


----------



## adrianm

alxw0w said:


> It's more a matter of space than money now, I know I'm going to add m scaler in the future... I have already listened Dave with MScaler with Ragnar at his place. With Wave cables and all farads and ps audio power plant power supply chain. Two words sum it perfectly *smooth listening *


I'm also dreading the boxes on my desk , how does he have them stacked?


----------



## alxw0w

adrianm said:


> I'm also dreading the boxes on my desk , how does he have them stacked?


He has pretty big rack/shelve nearby his desk, so the desk is almost empty. 
And he is Ragnar THE LEGENDARY


----------



## kenray536 (Oct 14, 2020)

alxw0w said:


> Ok so here are a few of my words on switching from MTT2 to the Dave.
> 
> *Prologue*
> Lets start that I was using Chord dacs for some time. Started like ~2 years ago with Mojo - which was bought with no expectations whatsoever.
> ...



Great writeup! You put many of my exact same thoughts into words. Very well written and great descriptions. I have the same thoughts about the Highs. It's hard to describe how pleasant they sound to someone that hasn't heard it. And then once you hear it, it's intoxicating and addicting, and you just want to hear more. As you said the music just sounds so realistic. And instruments/sounds/voices/mids that are normally in the background can now easily be heard and are so clear.

I went down a similar road, but skipped the TT2.
I went Mojo+Poly-->Hugo2+2go-->Dave-->Dave+Mscaler. My Chord journey (and my bank account...lol) has been a little shorter as I did all of this in 2-3 months. The Chord products (and this forum!) have a way of getting you hooked! I recently hooked up my Hugo2 up to the Mscaler for fun and it made me realize how different the Hugo2 sounds compared to the Dave. IMHO, they have different sound signatures. As you mentioned Dave is just different...and SO good.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

Triode User said:


> Nice!!!
> 
> and you will give reassurance to @musickid who is waiting for his solo Dave having handed in his TT2 / Mscaler.
> 
> *Now you need to start saving to buy back an Mscaler * .


Yes, the M Scaler with the DAVE is audio nirvana.   I have been testing the DAVE alone and with the M Scaler both with my Speaker System and my Grado GS3000e's and it makes a difference i.e. smoother (analogue like), deeper and more bass detail and not ear piercing high's / treble as you can get on some types of music woth the DAVE alone (although the detail is still there in spades).      

The biggest impact I found with the M Scaler though, is that it sets more of a level playing field between poor ripped CD's from your PC via USB giving 44kHz to the M Scaler to a good CD Transporter (I have the Chord Blu MK1) via BNC digital cable giving 88kHz both sources via the M Scaler giving 705.6kHz to the dAVE via twin BNC digital cables.


----------



## adrianm

kenray536 said:


> y Chord journey (and my bank account...lol) has been a little shorter as I did all of this in 2-3 months


Mine took a bit longer but i went from Mojo (3 years) straight to Dave after having auditioned everything in between.


----------



## Progisus

If deskspace is an issue he could try hqplayer to give that mscaler high tap filter analog sound. I know, I know but he already has the computer and no more space.


----------



## ecwl

adrianm said:


> Mine took a bit longer but i went from Mojo (3 years) straight to Dave after having auditioned everything in between.


Haha. I had the reverse journey. After a couple of years with DAVE, I got Mojo for travel. And then after a while with MScaler, I got Hugo 2 for the office.


----------



## adrianm

ecwl said:


> Haha. I had the reverse journey. After a couple of years with DAVE, I got Mojo for travel. And then after a while with MScaler, I got Hugo 2 for the office.


I'm probably heading down the same path, i'm just trying to convince myself i'm never going back to the office at the moment. I was considering selling my Mojo  and looking for something more portable like LCD-I4's with cipher dac, not sure about the use case, since they're open back iems though.
   Is anyone using them with Dave? The low sound leakage could fill my need for an open back based on reviews


----------



## Mikey99

ecwl said:


> Haha. I had the reverse journey. After a couple of years with DAVE, I got Mojo for travel. And then after a while with MScaler, I got Hugo 2 for the office.


I had a similar journey, but over 6 months or so.


----------



## ubs28 (Oct 15, 2020)

ecwl said:


> Haha. I had the reverse journey. After a couple of years with DAVE, I got Mojo for travel. And then after a while with MScaler, I got Hugo 2 for the office.



I started with the Hugo 1 and then the Mojo. Then I was stupid enough to listen to how a $500.000 setup sounds like. Then I bought the Chord Dave after comparing it to various $20.000+ DAC’s as it was a good value for money quite suprisingly (not sure how it is in 2020 with new DAC’s on the market)

Later I bought the Hugo 2 for the office.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

adrianm said:


> I'm also dreading the boxes on my desk , how does he have them stacked?


Well... First, you need to find a wife that won't grumble about the big boxes scattered around the house. The rest is easier )))


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## adrianm

Ragnar-BY said:


> Well... First, you need to find a wife that won't grumble about the big boxes scattered around the house. The rest is easier )))


I'm the grumbling one unfortunately so that makes it impossible lol  She's the one doing the scattering


----------



## adrianm

Now i understand @sm60 's frustration with Chord, was at a demo at my dealer today and the M-scaler just wouldn't work with a new Dave, ended up taking it home as well as a pair of Aryas


----------



## adrianm

I know this is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way but here goes :
I genuinely dislike what the M-scaler does. Even if i did like it, the changes are so tiny that i wouldn't pay more than 1k for it. Or for my preferences, to get rid of it. 
 With the Aryas it's not that bad, but the Z1R are already really smooth and it's just way too mushy. I found it brought more improvement to the TT2 when i auditioned them together.
 I can't understand why people spend so much money on improving this incremental " improvement " to Dave, let alone cables and power supplies for it. I'd honestly rather get a second Dave for work instead.
 I knew people will cry "Mid-Fi" so i also tested some LCD-4Z's with Dave, i like how similar they sound to my Z1R , but i find them "almost as good" in all aspects, with a smaller soundstage. Not even close to better, i actually like the Aryas  better than the 4z's, maybe because they're a bit different to the Z1r. I also find them a cut below in detail retrieval, even though they sound a bit more open, apparently that doesn't mean larger soundstage or better imaging. 
   My Gf also came to the same conclusions so at least if i'm crazy, there's 2 of us and we found each other LOL. 
   I just have the Utopias and Empyreans left to audition and them i'm done testing until new flagships come out. And a new Dave. If i do upgrade, it'll be either that or a Bartok depending on when i get to audition one.


----------



## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> I know this is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way but here goes :
> I genuinely dislike what the M-scaler does. Even if i did like it, the changes are so tiny that i wouldn't pay more than 1k for it. Or for my preferences, to get rid of it.
> With the Aryas it's not that bad, but the Z1R are already really smooth and it's just way too mushy. I found it brought more improvement to the TT2 when i auditioned them together.
> I can't understand why people spend so much money on improving this incremental " improvement " to Dave, let alone cables and power supplies for it. I'd honestly rather get a second Dave for work instead.
> ...



It's interesting, I'm sure you went into this test hearing that Mscaler was a "game changer," and you're left wondering what the hullabaloo was about. We've all been there with different gear at one point or another. Here are some quick thoughts if it's helpful:

1)  Mscaler is a game changer, but like any game it takes time to understand the rules and nature of the game. You have to give it, and yourself, some time to orient to what it's really doing. It's not like a different headphone where the changes, better or worse, are overt on first listen. The improvements (layering, separation, micro-detail, sense of space, etc) are of the kind that could be lost on others, but are sought after by many audiophiles. You should give it some time to burn in, but honestly, this is case where mental burn in is more critical. 

2) Mscaler is an incremental upgrade. Better connection, e.g., Wave or Opto DX is another increment. So is a better power supply, e.g., Poweradd, Farad. As I've shared there is no silver bullet. For major improvements you have to think and invest systemically. Let's say you come to like what Msclaer does but still find the "mushy" tradeoff unacceptable. Then you have to think through how to retain the benefits of Mscaler while "correcting" the smoothing/softening aspect. It's together that all these incremental moves compound into something dramatic, so much so that when you take them out you can't imagine going back.

3) In the end, you may still not like Mscaler. That's fine; I go a different route myself. But, it does deliver on what Rob Watts promised and is a little genius device.


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> The improvements (layering, separation, micro-detail, sense of space, etc) are of the kind that could be lost on others, but are sought after by many audiophiles. You should give it some time to burn in, but honestly, this is case where mental burn in is more critical.


I'm really not hearing any of these improvements, just an unnaturally smooth sound. On both headphones. There is just no comparison between what it does and what solo Dave does compared to MTT2, that was an upgrade all across the board.
      I still have it for testing for the next few days but so far the thing i most like about it is the passthrough feature. If i have to try really hard to convince myself to spend 3k on it, i'll pass. I wouldn't say it's worth more than 2k, but considering that's the Chord price for a stand...pricing seems about on par.
     If you ask me this is where snake oil comes from. Either it blows you away in the start like Dave did, or you're just convincing yourself you should like something just because others say you should. I honestly think you guys are just finding new ways to introduce pleasing distortion.
   You mentioned Dave sounding "skeletal " compared to Bartok and pre-upgrade Dave. That just sounds like distortion to me. Just like tubes. I just picked a thicker sounding headphone that's already smooth and i feel i sounds silky smooth and with great soundstage and imaging even compared to these "open backed grails" i keep getting told i should aspire to.
    I would honestly buy a second Z1R before any of them . And will if they ever stop production on them. I still have to test the Utopias and Empyreans, but listening to the Lcd-4 today completely dismantled any notion of some superior headphones that reveal these imagined qualities in minute changes for me.
   Rob himself said at one point in the beginning you should just pick another headphone if you like a thicker sound. Not why i did it though, had a Mojo back then and wasn't aware of this.



edwardsean said:


> 2) Mscaler is an incremental upgrade. Better connection, e.g., Wave or Opto DX is another increment. So is a better power supply, e.g., Poweradd, Farad. As I've shared there is no silver bullet. For major improvements you have to think and invest systemically. Let's say you come to like what Msclaer does but still find the "mushy" tradeoff unacceptable. Then you have to think through how to retain the benefits of Mscaler while "correcting" the smoothing/softening aspect. It's together that all these incremental moves compound into something dramatic, so much so that when you take them out you can't imagine going back.


I guess we're different here, i don't have the time or patience to tinker with Chord's products, if this is the promise and the direction Chord's heading, and the sound of the next dac flagship i'll probably check out the competition before upgrading.
   Either way, say i DID like it. My mains filter has a much bigger (and positive ) impact on the way Dave sounds than the M-scaler does. So does my silver headphone cable. If i do keep tinkering it will probably with a better filter/cable depending on how the power will be at the new place.

I think Dave is the only thing so far that is worth it's hype.


----------



## Hooster

adrianm said:


> I know this is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way but here goes :
> *I genuinely dislike what the M-scaler does*. Even if i did like it, the changes are so tiny that i wouldn't pay more than 1k for it. Or for my preferences, to get rid of it.
> With the Aryas it's not that bad, but the Z1R are already really smooth and it's just way too mushy. I found it brought more improvement to the TT2 when i auditioned them together.
> I can't understand why people spend so much money on improving this incremental " improvement " to Dave, let alone cables and power supplies for it. I'd honestly rather get a second Dave for work instead.
> ...



I have to admit, I have never tried an Mscaler but what I have read about it has suggested to me that this is some ultra game changer and well worth the high price. You are saying that the Mscaler actually makes things worse.  Thanks for your honest opinion on this, it is much appreciated.
I have had this kind of experience with other hi-fi products, that initially seem to be doing something amazing but turn out to make things worse once the dust has settled.


----------



## adrianm

Hooster said:


> I have to admit, I have never tried an Mscaler but what I have read about it has suggested to me that this is some ultra game changer and well worth the high price. You are saying that the Mscaler actually makes things worse.  Thanks for your honest opinion on this, it is much appreciated.
> I have had this kind of experience with other hi-fi products, that initially seem to be doing something amazing but turn out to make things worse once the dust has settled.


I do advise that you hear it for yourself, the fact that i don't like it is subjective and ymmv, but like i said, i find the difference it makes extremely subtle.
  It just feels like it tries too hard to fill in the gaps, like there's less space between notes, guitars have less bite, there's less silence. Say you have a guitar and a piano in the same song, it's like it tries to fill in the gaps between the piano notes and the guitar notes by adding them up, splitting difference and filling in the gap.
    Some say it sounds more "atmospheric" , it just sounds...wrong to me. I'm aware that in a live performance instruments aren't in a vacuum but the way it does this just sounds way to smooth and unnatural to me. This is on the full upsampling setting, i haven't really noticed any difference with the first two steps. They just sound really close to the original 44.1 so...why bother.
   More than anything this has made me curious to audition a Bartok before my next upgrade and see how they do things and how exactly the external cloak approach differs. Not that i'm going to be spending Rossini levels of money anytime soon. I probably would do that instead of endless tinkering though, i think sometimes less is more.
     I'm super happy with the way my setup sounds at the moment though and if i wanted something different i would just look for products that fill the bill. 
   Why should buying stuff be like an arranged marriage, where you have to convince yourself to be happy with your choice?


----------



## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> I'm really not hearing any of these improvements, just an unnaturally smooth sound. On both headphones. There is just no comparison between what it does and what solo Dave does compared to MTT2, that was an upgrade all across the board.
> I still have it for testing for the next few days but so far the thing i most like about it is the passthrough feature. If i have to try really hard to convince myself to spend 3k on it, i'll pass. I wouldn't say it's worth more than 2k, but considering that's the Chord price for a stand...pricing seems about on par.
> If you ask me this is where snake oil comes from. Either it blows you away in the start like Dave did, or you're just convincing yourself you should like something just because others say you should. I honestly think you guys are just finding new ways to introduce pleasing distortion.
> You mentioned Dave sounding "skeletal " compared to Bartok and pre-upgrade Dave. That just sounds like distortion to me. Just like tubes. I just picked a thicker sounding headphone that's already smooth and i feel i sounds silky smooth and with great soundstage and imaging even compared to these "open backed grails" i keep getting told i should aspire to.
> ...



Well, sincerely, best of luck to you.


----------



## adrianm (Oct 16, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> Well, sincerely, best of luck to you.


Thanks , same 
I have to say it does feel liberating having tested this stuff and finally being able to put it to rest and move on to other things. This whole fear of missing out because of gear is the worst part of this hobby


----------



## number1sixerfan

adrianm said:


> I'm really not hearing any of these improvements, just an unnaturally smooth sound. On both headphones. There is just no comparison between what it does and what solo Dave does compared to MTT2, that was an upgrade all across the board.
> I still have it for testing for the next few days but so far the thing i most like about it is the passthrough feature. If i have to try really hard to convince myself to spend 3k on it, i'll pass. I wouldn't say it's worth more than 2k, but considering that's the Chord price for a stand...pricing seems about on par.
> If you ask me this is where snake oil comes from. Either it blows you away in the start like Dave did, or you're just convincing yourself you should like something just because others say you should. I honestly think you guys are just finding new ways to introduce pleasing distortion.
> You mentioned Dave sounding "skeletal " compared to Bartok and pre-upgrade Dave. That just sounds like distortion to me. Just like tubes. I just picked a thicker sounding headphone that's already smooth and i feel i sounds silky smooth and with great soundstage and imaging even compared to these "open backed grails" i keep getting told i should aspire to.
> ...



I'm sorry, not at all trying to be rude. But most of your posts have the same theme to them. You discrediting the value of any and all gear to convince yourself that it simply can't be worth it because you rather not (have to) buy anything else. If you don't want to buy anything else, just don't. There's really no need to disingenuously try to convince everyone else.. 

With higher end gear, it's pretty much well understood that the improvements to price ratio is not linear as you move up... (i.e. expecting a performance jump similar as the TT2 to Dave from the Mscaler just doesn't make sense. But again if not worth it to you, just don't buy it) 



Hooster said:


> I have to admit, I have never tried an Mscaler but what I have read about it has suggested to me that this is some ultra game changer and well worth the high price. You are saying that the Mscaler actually makes things worse.  Thanks for your honest opinion on this, it is much appreciated.
> I have had this kind of experience with other hi-fi products, that initially seem to be doing something amazing but turn out to make things worse once the dust has settled.



I would honestly have to call bs on the Mscaler making things worse. I can't at all imagine someone hearing it with Chord DACs and saying it makes things worse. Like at all lol 

What is true is that the effect is not drastic. It feels more of like the icing on the cake so to speak, maybe that last 10-15% of optimized performance (same as @edwardsean said; spacing, separation, perceived detail etc). I do agree that it could be priced better, and could live without it for sure if I had to. But I am sorry, making things worse? Not at all lol


----------



## Ciggavelli (Oct 16, 2020)

I have to laugh at some of @adrianm ’s posts

1) He said we should trust Rob on everything. A few weeks later, Rob’s M-Scaler is snake oil 

2) He only gives the m-scaler 1 day of listening. Says everybody else is making up the improvements we hear with the M-Scaler

3) Has some sort of love affair with his Sony closed-back.

4) Says he tried the LCD-4z, but only at the shop. Doesn’t give his ears time to adjust to the new sound.

5) Tells everybody their ears are wrong, and we are mistaking distortion for a sound quality improvement.


I have suspected he was a troll in the past, and I think his posts in here prove it.


----------



## adrianm (Oct 17, 2020)

aaaaand there it is, why no one dares say anything bad about Chord. The zealots line up.
  Just to clarify, there have been others that didn't like the m-scaler, they just wanted to avoid this.



number1sixerfan said:


> I'm sorry, not at all trying to be rude. But most of your posts have the same theme to them. You discrediting the value of any and all gear to convince yourself that it simply can't be worth it because you rather not (have to) buy anything else. If you don't want to buy anything else, just don't. There's really no need to disingenuously try to convince everyone else..


The only reason i've said anything is because of the crass elitism on this thread. People constantly try to convince others that YOU NEED all this crap, and then you need to modify it without having the faintest clue about what you're doing.



Ciggavelli said:


> 1) He said we should trust Rob on everything. A few weeks later, Rob’s M-Scaler is snake oil


I didn't say it's snake oil, i said i don't like the approach. Everything he said and people here called bull on was accurate and i'd take his word over yours any day.


Ciggavelli said:


> 2) He only gives the m-scaler 1 day of listening. Says everybody else is making up the improvements we hear with the M-Scaler


I still have it, i still will but i doubt my impressions will change. Like i said, this isn't an arranged marriage. You say "improvements" , i say "changes". What can i say, maybe i don't have "golden ears like you lot "


Ciggavelli said:


> 4) Says he tried the LCD-4z, but only at the shop. Doesn’t give his ears time to adjust to the new sound.


It sounded worse than the Arya to me, why take them home instead of the Aryas?



Ciggavelli said:


> 5) Tells everybody their ears are wrong, and we are mistaking distortion for a sound quality improvement.


That was all Rob, i had no idea what you're imagining , but makes sense  It's like you buy a Tesla and try to make it into a Mustang when comparing it to the Bartok. Just buy the damn Mustang if you like it so much.


Ciggavelli said:


> I have suspected he was a troll in the past, and I think his posts in here prove it.


No, some of us aren't retired yet, and i hate forums for obvious reasons. Weren't you the guy telling Rob that DAVE sucks compared to Bartok?
What are you still doing here? Talk about trolling.


Ciggavelli said:


> 3) Has some sort of love affair with his Sony closed-back.


Indeed,best thing except for Dave  there's plenty of people who own...everything, and prefer them. Even if there weren't, who cares? Just because Tyll crap on them a few months before admitting he's half deaf and retiring doesn't mean they suck  Plenty of people who know what they're talking about like them, Guttenberg, Stereophile people, etc.
    I'm sorry, next headphones i get will be something to please the head-fi elders.



number1sixerfan said:


> I would honestly have to call bs on the Mscaler making things worse. I can't at all imagine someone hearing it with Chord DACs and saying it makes things worse. Like at all lol
> 
> What is true is that the effect is not drastic. It feels more of like the icing on the cake so to speak, maybe that last 10-15% of optimized performance (same as @edwardsean said; spacing, separation, perceived detail etc). I do agree that it could be priced better, and could live without it for sure if I had to. But I am sorry, making things worse? Not at all lol


I'll keep trying to hear that better detail and separation i'm supposed to hear. I did hear it first time i tested the M-scaler, with the TT2. I'm not with Dave now. It's just smoothing and nothing else.
I'd be delighted to find out there's something wrong and that's why i'm not hearing it. Not sure what setting might be missing. Soundstage only increases a bit in width with CF0, but by the same amount that does when using CF1.
    If i keep upsampling to max and use CF1 as i usually do the soundstage actually diminishes. So what, they're mutually exclusive? I can't hear it doing anything different than crosfeed. It just pans instruments to the left, right.
   CF2 honestly sounds about the same with it on or off, but CF3 does sound a bit blurrier with it off. So the only thing i do find it improving is CF0 (width and separation ) and CF3 (clarity).
Edif : nvm, just CF0, i still prefer CF3 with it off in most cases.


----------



## Articnoise

I have no horses in this race  . What I have heard is that the M-scaler improves certain things but that it also worsens other aspects, at least if you do not fix its RF discharge. It is by now well documented here (I think) that some treatment between the M-scaler and DAVE can and will reduce most of the RFI. Have you done anything to reduce the output of RF or are you just ignoring it out of principle?


----------



## adrianm

Articnoise said:


> I have no horses in this race  . What I have heard is that the M-scaler improves certain things but that it also worsens other aspects, at least if you do not fix its RF discharge. It is by now well documented here (I think) that some treatment between the M-scaler and DAVE can and will reduce most of the RFI. Have you done anything to reduce the output of RF or are you just ignoring it out of principle?


It's just on loan for the weekend so now, my dealer did recommend some Crystal  Diamond Digit Bnc cables as a solid upgrade over the stock ones. but they weren't in stock so i'm using the ones that came with the m-scaler. Also for some reason my optical cable won't click in for the life of it and the stock one is too short.
   I'm aware of the endless fixes it supposedly needs.


----------



## Articnoise

adrianm said:


> It's just on loan for the weekend so now, my dealer did recommend some Crystal  Diamond Digit Bnc cables as a solid upgrade over the stock ones. but they weren't in stock so i'm using the ones that came with the m-scaler. Also for some reason my optical cable won't click in for the life of it and the stock one is too short.
> I'm aware of the endless fixes it supposedly needs.



I totally get it is on loan, but the question is if you have tested the M-scaler under the right/optimal conditions. It has been reported great improvement if you put on some ferrites cores on the BNC cable between the M-scaler and DAC. Ferrite cores is relatively inexpensive.

Just sayin...


----------



## adrianm

Articnoise said:


> I totally get it is on loan, but the question is if you have tested the M-scaler under the right/optimal conditions. It has been reported great improvement if you put on some ferrites cores on the BNC cable between the M-scaler and DAC. Ferrite cores is relatively inexpensive.
> 
> Just sayin...


It's not a cost issue, there's just no place to get them in time for testing. If i do somehow end up buying it i'm aware i'm going to need some Wave cables or similar, that's been factored in from the start.
   On some tracks there is indeed a bit more space and the sound does open up a bit, i am starting to distinguish between that and the way crossfeed does it , my problem is that there's also a veil of softness thrown over everything.  
   In songs where there's just vocals and an instrument for example and nothing to position there's just the softness and no upside from my pov. I'm not sure if ferrites would lift that veil.


----------



## Articnoise

adrianm said:


> It's not a cost issue, there's just no place to get them in time for testing. If i do somehow end up buying it i'm aware i'm going to need some Wave cables or similar, that's been factored in from the start.
> On some tracks there is indeed a bit more space and the sound does open up a bit, i am starting to distinguish between that and the way crossfeed does it , my problem is that there's also a veil of softness thrown over everything.
> In songs where there's just vocals and an instrument for example and nothing to position there's just the softness and no upside from my pov. I'm not sure if ferrites would lift that veil.



It’s easy. Ask to loan it again this time with the recommended cable. Or get some ferrite cores (good to have IMO) put them on the BNC cable between the M-scaler and DAC. If you don’t like how it sounds return the M-scaler. If you like it better you have to start test which different treatment/cable to see/hear which sounds best to you.


----------



## adrianm

Articnoise said:


> It’s easy. Ask to loan it again this time with the recommended cable. Or get some ferrite cores (good to have IMO) put them on the BNC cable between the M-scaler and DAC. If you don’t like how it sounds return the M-scaler. If you like it better you have to start test which different treatment/cable to see/hear which sounds best to you.


I might have gone in expecting too much i guess. I might try them at a later date but i fundamentally hate what it does, it feels to me like one of those smoothness filters on instagram. Norah Jones, Diana Krall, Susan Werner, all vocals in general sound smoothed out to me to the point that it sounds artificial and it feels like there's less dynamic range in general.


----------



## saudio7

But is in it that in m-scaler we should expect all issues solve which we notice in BluII ?
I don’t like this that we have to invest so much more to get all those improvements


----------



## Progisus

Had one, tried everything to get the sound I was promised, couldn’t stomach +$2k more for cables, sold it. Put the money into a top server which could run hqplayer with many filtering options. Never looked back. And I am a Chord guy.. see signature.


----------



## adrianm

Progisus said:


> Had one, tried everything to get the sound I was promised, couldn’t stomach +$2k more for cables, sold it. Put the money into a top server which could run hqplayer with many filtering options. Never looked back. And I am a Chord guy.. see signature.


That sounds like a better idea to me  i previously called snake oil on streamers and etc, but i was also sure the m-scaler was some holy grail so who knows, i'll try and get a streamer in for a home audition as well as giving Hqplayer a shot on my desktop.


----------



## number1sixerfan

adrianm said:


> aaaaand there it is, why no one dares say anything bad about Chord. The zealots line up.
> Just to clarify, there have been others that didn't like the m-scaler, they just wanted to avoid this.
> 
> The only reason i've said anything is because of the crass elitism on this thread. People constantly try to convince others that YOU NEED all this crap, and then you need to modify it without having the faintest clue about what you're doing.



I'm not at all a Chord Zealot.. I'm pretty unbiased entirely when it comes to gear altogether. It's just equipment to me. And in most of these posts people aren't saying YOU HAVE to buy or you MUST try.. I believe it's your FOMO making it seem that way to you. Every gear improvement mentioned here can't completely be snake oil, but it seems that's how you respond to them all, whether you've heard it or not. 

But as far as the mscaler specifically, I've said myself in multiple threads that it's a subtle (but welcome) improvement that still seems overpriced. It's not a must have for me in my book..


----------



## adrianm

number1sixerfan said:


> Every gear improvement mentioned here can't completely be snake oil, but it seems that's how you respond to them all, whether you've heard it or not.


I'm not sure why people think i'm trolling , but with the risk of pissing everyone off again...having tested the m-scaler for myself i think the truth is somewhere down the middle:

 Logically it makes sense that the more stuff you add into the chain (servers, reclockers, etc) the more Rf noise you inject, just like Rob said.
That said, if i were to get the m-scaler, finding that it sounds too "smooth " i can see how that noise, causing noise floor modulation and, ultimately,  "harshness" would sound better to me. Guitars have less bite, growl, as well as vocalists.
  It may sound "out there" but i recall at least one member swearing the m-scaler sounded better when run off battery/lpsu with a higher voltage than recommended, and Rob explaining that's just harshness. I'm sure you can find the post.

   So this pretty much ties it all in a neat little bow for me, i think that :
   Rob's right that it's noise ,and the people are right that it sounds better. Because on it's own i find it unnaturally smooth and if that was the stock Dave sound i would gladly pay the m-scaler price just to get rid of it.
   That said, having listened more today, i can't say i don't find that tiniest bit of extra separation and depth,  it's not on all tracks, mostly on live stuff, on stuff like Lorde and Billie Eilish i can hardly notice it and on stuff like Diana Krall, Norah Jones, i straight up hate how smoothed out it sounds. The improvements are also most noticeable with CF0, less so with the rest, but the veil remains. Even when they are there, they're so small i'm tired of even testing for them.
     If the improvements were there on all tracks, with no weird softness veil and it didn't require other fixes  it might justify the price. Either way the changes are more akin to what i would expect from a filter, not a standalone device. 
     Listening to Dave feels like i'm watching batman, with the m-scaler i feel like i'm watching lego batman .


----------



## mbj666

I personally find that cables, good mains and good isolation and recently good network isolation inc reclocking all make a positive difference.  M scaler made a smaller improvement for me on hi res but much more noticeable on cd rips no doubt will demo it again but intend to try the innuos phoenix usb reclocker first


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## Ciggavelli (Oct 17, 2020)

adrianm said:


> aaaaand there it is, why no one dares say anything bad about Chord. The zealots line up.
> Just to clarify, there have been others that didn't like the m-scaler, they just wanted to avoid this.
> 
> 
> ...


I never once said the Bartok was better or that the DAVE sucks. I was the one who liked to add a server and a reclocker to my DAVE, which you claimed was nonsense.  

I’m probably younger than you. I’m 38 years old

For whatever reason, you feel your opinions are more valid than others. I get that people have different opinions and people hear things differently. But, for whatever reason, you try to push your opinions on everybody and then tell us we’re making things up when we disagree


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## iamoneagain (Oct 17, 2020)

I was trying to stay away from this thread but think might referring to me running the Mscaler at 16v vs 12v. The issue was at the time I was running my Mscaler off a very dirty Mac mini usb connection . This was affecting the sound and not giving an accurate assessment. I also preferred the HF filter on during that time.

Currently with a clean usb out thru Stack Audio Link II, the Mscaler sounds perfect at 12v and the Dave with HF filter off. I do find the Mscaler makes a noticeable improvement in all the things others have mentioned. Bass tightens up, blacker background, more depth, and life-like presentation. Someone described it as the Dave alone sounds like the best recording you’ve ever heard but with the Mscaler, it’s like you are no longer listening to a recording. I totally agree with this. Only reason I say Mscaler is not needed is listening to the best recording you ever heard is still something very special.

Sorry you are not hearing the same thing but don’t dismiss others as convincing themselves. I would like to sell it and just use Dave alone or HQPlayer but in my case it made a difference worth keeping. I bought this stuff with an inheritance and really don’t have the kind of money others do who are buying the Dave. I’m still using stock power cord and usb cable and have no plans to upgrade. The sound I’m getting is way beyond what I thought was possible.


----------



## adrianm

Ciggavelli said:


> I never once said the Bartok was better or that the DAVE sucks. I was the one who liked to add a server and a reclocker to my DAVE, which you claimed was nonsense.
> 
> I’m probably younger than you. I’m 38 years old
> 
> For whatever reason, you feel your opinions are more valid than others. I get that people have different opinions and people hear things differently. But, for whatever reason, you try to push your opinions on everybody and then tell us we’re making things up when we disagree


My bad, you were probably just having fun stirring up stuff with Rob, im 30 and not interested in arguing with you. I just posted my opinions which clearly don't match up with others. I've just pointed out that a lot of the stuff people here swear up and down make a huge difference are barely noticeable, debatable if actual improvements and yet some people act like it sounds 50% better than stock Dave. 
     People should test and come to their own conclusions, but i think a lot of this stuff gets taken for scripture just because people like you gang up on whoever doesn't agree and then act like victims.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> I do find the Mscaler makes a noticeable improvement in all the things others have mentioned. Bass tightens up, blacker background, more depth, and life-like presentation


This is what i've heard when i added the mains filter, no such changes with the M-scaler though.
If the Dave M-scaler combo is so good why is more than half this thread about people improving it with cables and batteries and linear power supplies?


iamoneagain said:


> I bought this stuff with an inheritance and really don’t have the kind of money others do who are buying the Dave. I’m still using stock power cord and usb cable and have no plans to upgrade. The sound I’m getting is way beyond what I thought was possible.


 Sorry for loss and good for you. I can honestly say the same thing about Dave. When i first started wit this hobby I had just started working,  Dave just came out and it felt about an attainable as a Ferrari to me. Mojo blew me away when i first heard it and i couldn't imagine something sounding better than that. I honestly didn't consider Hugo2 or TT2 enough of an upgrade over Mojo to justify the price, untill i heard Dave and it just became irrelevant. So yeah that's the kind of improvement i'm expecting when i spend this kind of money. 
   People can deny it all they want, there is obvious elitism in this thread, which is probably why i come off abrasive at times. People like to brag about their thousand dollar usb cables and etc in their signatures like they're making a huge difference are are something to aspire to. 
     At least if i spend 10k on a Rolex i can be honest with myself that it's  jewelry and a status symbol thing, instead of pretending there's some magic quality to it that improves my life. And don't feel the need to go stick it under other people's noses.


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## alxw0w

As for hqplayer vs m scaler. For me it wasn't even close. Hqplayer and its filters did something to the sound, but effect wasn't close to what is m scaler offering. Sound shapes were flatter not as rounded. Smoothness wasn't the same, only decay feeling seemed to be pretty close.


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## edwardsean

alxw0w said:


> As for hqplayer vs m scaler. For me it wasn't even close. Hqplayer and its filters did something to the sound, but effect wasn't close to what is m scaler offering. Sound shapes were flatter not as rounded. Smoothness wasn't the same, only decay feeling seemed to be pretty close.



I'm always happy to talk about HQPlayer v. Mscaler as I really respect both. You have to be careful in comparing the two. 

They both set out to achieve a similar goal: high computational reconstruction of the original waveform. However, one is software and one is hardware. So, I've said this before, it's a little like comparing a Mac to Windows. A Mac, laptop or desktop, comes as a complete integrated hardware/OS unit. When you compare that to Windows, you have to be aware of the range of performance from an entry Nuc to a high power desktop PC. HQP needs a proper server (possibly, + endpoint) to make it a fair comparison. 

Also, HQP is vastly deeper in terms of its array of filters, modulators, noise shapers, etc. It takes time to learn it. Properly set up, HQP is every bit as good MScaler. There are good reasons for going for either one depending on your system and how much you enjoy working on audio.


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## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> I was trying to stay away from this thread but think might referring to me running the Mscaler at 16v vs 12v. The issue was at the time I was running my Mscaler off a very dirty Mac mini usb connection . This was affecting the sound and not giving an accurate assessment. I also preferred the HF filter on during that time.
> 
> Currently with a clean usb out thru Stack Audio Link II, the Mscaler sounds perfect at 12v and the Dave with HF filter off. I do find the Mscaler makes a noticeable improvement in all the things others have mentioned. Bass tightens up, blacker background, more depth, and life-like presentation. Someone described it as the Dave alone sounds like the best recording you’ve ever heard but with the Mscaler, it’s like you are no longer listening to a recording. I totally agree with this. Only reason I say Mscaler is not needed is listening to the best recording you ever heard is still something very special.
> 
> Sorry you are not hearing the same thing but don’t dismiss others as convincing themselves. I would like to sell it and just use Dave alone or HQPlayer but in my case it made a difference worth keeping. I bought this stuff with an inheritance and really don’t have the kind of money others do who are buying the Dave. I’m still using stock power cord and usb cable and have no plans to upgrade. The sound I’m getting is way beyond what I thought was possible.


You gave me an idea to test the m-scaler via usb instead of optical, out of my "noise" gaming pc with a chord c-line usb and jitterbug.  The smoothness veil appears to be gone, but there is clearly more background noise than the optical connection. This leaves me a bit hopeful ,i guess it's not as cut and dried. 
     I'll continue testing tomorrow with the macbook and see what happens.


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## iamoneagain (Oct 17, 2020)

adrianm said:


> You gave me an idea to test the m-scaler via usb instead of optical, out of my "noise" gaming pc with a chord c-line usb and jitterbug.  The smoothness veil appears to be gone, but there is clearly more background noise than the optical connection. This leaves me a bit hopeful ,i guess it's not as cut and dried.
> I'll continue testing tomorrow with the macbook and see what happens.



I also added the Poweradd because it was only $100 investment to see if it made any difference. Have no plans to spend another $1000 or so on Wave cables. I’d say it’s a very subtle difference. A hint more natural sound and highs more liquid sounding.

And as far as testing music, just try 44k/16bit files at first. Hires file don’t make as much difference. With mscaler in passthru music sounds thicker and might mistake that for more weight. Once enabled will find everything is separated but part of a whole.

Instead of thinking of it as a separate device just think of it as the sound Rob was trying to achieve with the upsampling inside. It’s basically the same but with higher taps bypassing the internal.  Also make sure that video button on the left is not lit. That’s what got me when I first got it. Sounded worse and felt the way you do. Once I turned it off I heard the magic.

But in the end it’s possible the mscaler is not for you. And it also seems you’re itching to try out the Bartok. I’m completely happy with Dave/mscaler combo so I have no interest. Maybe after Covid and there are headphone meetups can hear it. I’ve heard people say the sound is just not for them but find the Chord sounds right. But as you can see, everyone hears something different.

For a good test album try The Blue Nile’s A Walk Across the Rooftops. The 2nd song Tinseltown in the Rain. Listen to the  piano and bass. Basically with the mscaler it makes the album sound hires. It’s a very noticeable difference.


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## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> I also added the Poweradd because it was only $100 investment to see if it made any difference. Have no plans to spend another $1000 or so on Wave cables. I’d say it’s a very subtle difference. A hint more natural sound and highs more liquid sounding.
> 
> And as far as testing music, just try 44k/16bit files at first. Hires file don’t make as much difference. With mscaler in passthru music sounds thicker and might mistake that for more weight. Once enabled will find everything is separated but part of a whole.
> 
> ...


 I'm testing everything in flac on Tidal. 
 Well it's either defective or i'm using it wrong  "D BNC 705.6" right? I assume there's no way something could be plugged in wrong. 
  Because it sounds EXACTLY the same on and off, no difference whatsoever. Both optical and usb.
  In all my testing with it i have never noticed any changes in timbre, only slight positioning changes, a few degrees here and there, but nothing major, and not on all tracks.
  A bit wider soundstage on "From Rags to Riches" and a bit more separation with CF0, less noticeable (if at all) with CF 1,2,3. And that's the most difference i've ever seen with the m-scaler in 2 days of testing, again, only on SOME tracks. 
   So either it's defective or i need Utopias lol. As a side note, with the Arya's it's even harder to spot any changes. I don't have any other headphones to test with.


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## Ciggavelli

adrianm said:


> I'm testing everything in flac on Tidal.
> Well it's either defective or i'm using it wrong  "D BNC 705.6" right? I assume there's no way something could be plugged in wrong.
> Because it sounds EXACTLY the same on and off, no difference whatsoever. Both optical and usb.
> In all my testing with it i have never noticed any changes in timbre, only slight positioning changes, a few degrees here and there, but nothing major, and not on all tracks.
> ...


Make sure the furthest left button is off. That’s the pass through. But, yeah dbnc 705 is correct. You can get the full 768 with 24/96 songs


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## alxw0w

adrianm said:


> I'm testing everything in flac on Tidal.
> Well it's either defective or i'm using it wrong  "D BNC 705.6" right? I assume there's no way something could be plugged in wrong.
> Because it sounds EXACTLY the same on and off, no difference whatsoever. Both optical and usb.
> In all my testing with it i have never noticed any changes in timbre, only slight positioning changes, a few degrees here and there, but nothing major, and not on all tracks.
> ...


I don't know Z1R - never listened to them. But I can say that on some headphones effect was less pronounced with M Scaler. Audeze LCD-XC had changed A LOT. But on the other hand with LCD3 the effect wasn't so prominent. 
And what I've also noticed M Scaler improved more TT2 than the Dave. 
Dave already has crazy decay depth and pin point imaging. In my experience adding the m scaler to the chain wasn't so revolutionary as it was with TT2.


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## adrianm

Ciggavelli said:


> Make sure the furthest left button is off. That’s the pass through. But, yeah dbnc 705 is correct. You can get the full 768 with 24/96 songs


Yeah it's off.  I'm on USB, CF2 now and hear almost 0 differences with it on or off, a very slightly "stretched image" if i focus really hard on it.


alxw0w said:


> And what I've also noticed M Scaler improved more TT2 than the Dave.


This i can definitely vouch for, i thought the same thing when i first auditioned them together and i was expecting at least the same kind of difference with Dave. Though in hindsight i probably shouldn't have.
    I'm gonna stop testing since it's getting tiring and differences are nowhere as described, more often than not it sounds exactly the same. I might audition another unit at a later date just to make sure there wasn't something wrong with this one.


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## iamoneagain (Oct 18, 2020)

adrianm said:


> Yeah it's off.  I'm on USB, CF2 now and hear almost 0 differences with it on or off, a very slightly "stretched image" if i focus really hard on it.
> 
> This i can definitely vouch for, i thought the same thing when i first auditioned them together and i was expecting at least the same kind of difference with Dave. Though in hindsight i probably shouldn't have.
> I'm gonna stop testing since it's getting tiring and differences are nowhere as described, more often than not it sounds exactly the same. I might audition another unit at a later date just to make sure there wasn't something wrong with this one.



I guess it’s possible can’t tell much difference with the headphones you’re using. But if that’s the case just return the mscaler and be happy. No reason to spend any more money. I’m guessing since the headphone are not as transparent you’re not going to hear any of the other changes people are recommending but don’t wright it off as snake oil. Sometimes just a minor change in the way the vocals are presented can make all the difference to someone.

I’m also wondering if you’d be disappointed when you finally hear the Bartok. People say it’s very close to the Dave and if your headphones can’t hear any of these other differences, it might not matter. But then maybe the one box solution will suite you better.  I can see how even if technically Dave might be the right approach it’s still the combination streamer, power supply, headphone output could make it more musical. The one thing they give credit to the Dave is the lack of smear and it’s speed. Think that might be better with the Utopia since ultra transparent and supposed to one of the fastest dynamic headphone.

At least your trying this out for yourself and giving your opinions. But these are just your options based on your experience and your equipment. It doesn’t invalidate anyone else’s opinions. So others trying decide what’s best for them need to judge based on their equipment and whether their opinions line up with that person. And then finally test for yourself.


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## Bonesy Jonesy

I have tested both the Hugo 2 and DAVE with and without the M Scaler with USB direct from my Macbook running Audirvana Plus and from my Chord Blu MK1 with my Grado GS 3000e's (quite a revealing headphone) and my UK Speaker System (DAVE ---->  Mezzo 140 Power Amp ----> Focal Electra 1008 Be's). 

Playing various genres of music (identical from Macbook and Blu) with some live and some studio recorded. 

I definitely noticed a difference with and without M Scaler especially with live music on both the DAVE and Hugo 2 as other people have described with positive reviews.  It's definitely a keeper !


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## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> I guess it’s possible can’t tell much difference with the headphones you’re using. But if that’s the case just return the mscaler and be happy. No reason to spend any more money. I’m guessing since the headphone are not as transparent you’re not going to hear any of the other changes people are recommending but don’t wright it off as snake oil. Sometimes just a minor change in the way the vocals are presented can make all the difference to someone.
> 
> I’m also wondering if you’d be disappointed when you finally hear the Bartok. People say it’s very close to the Dave and if your headphones can’t hear any of these other differences, it might not matter. But then maybe the one box solution will suite you better.  I can see how even if technically Dave might be the right approach it’s still the combination streamer, power supply, headphone output could make it more musical. The one thing they give credit to the Dave is the lack of smear and it’s speed. Think that might be better with the Utopia since ultra transparent and supposed to one of the fastest dynamic headphone.
> 
> At least your trying this out for yourself and giving your opinions. But these are just your options based on your experience and your equipment. It doesn’t invalidate anyone else’s opinions. So others trying decide what’s best for them need to judge based on their equipment and whether their opinions line up with that person. And then finally test for yourself.


 Well the problem is i  kind of wanted to spend more, i just want an upgrade for it. I do hear a difference with the Z1R in some songs, but not for the better imo. With Optical everything sounds veiled and overly smoothed to me, i genuinely hate it. With usb it doesn't sound veiled but i feel like i'm only left with slight positional changes and nothing else. Absolutely no changes in tonality whatsoever. With the Aryas it's even less noticeable.
    I'll check out the Utopias ,Empyreans and He1000se  for reference soon but untill we move i'd rather use closed backs.And by the LCD-4z audition i'm not expecting much of an upgrade.
   I'm pretty happy with using Dave as my desktop all in one with pc via optical at the moment, just hoped there's more to squeeze out of it and i'm not finding it. If other people are happy with their m-scalers and etc, good for them.
    Guess i'll wait for a new m-scaler, closed back flag ships or check out the Bartok later if nothing comes along. I'm pretty sick of chasing upgrades at the moment and i guess i'll focus on non audio toys.
   You could say "iamdone"


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## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> Well the problem is i  kind of wanted to spend more, i just want an upgrade for it. I do hear a difference with the Z1R in some songs, but not for the better imo. With Optical everything sounds veiled and overly smoothed to me, i genuinely hate it. With usb it doesn't sound veiled but i feel like i'm only left with slight positional changes and nothing else. Absolutely no changes in tonality whatsoever. With the Aryas it's even less noticeable.
> I'll check out the Utopias ,Empyreans and He1000se  for reference soon but untill we move i'd rather use closed backs.And by the LCD-4z audition i'm not expecting much of an upgrade.
> I'm pretty happy with using Dave as my desktop all in one with pc via optical at the moment, just hoped there's more to squeeze out of it and i'm not finding it. If other people are happy with their m-scalers and etc, good for them.
> Guess i'll wait for a new m-scaler, closed back flag ships or check out the Bartok later if nothing comes along. I'm pretty sick of chasing upgrades at the moment and i guess i'll focus on non audio toys.
> You could say "iamdone"



Haha. But it is true. At some you just have to stop chasing an endlessly upgrade path or you’ll never be happy. It hard when you read these forums and everyone is bragging about how great things sound, myself included. But I think at this point your time would be better spent discovering new music. Just enjoy the setup you have now.

With that said, think I’ll take my own advice and take a break from these forums again.


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## ubs28

I could hear the difference between Dave and Dave + Mscaler quite easily.

But it sounded also brighter which what I found very strange, so I did not buy it in the end.


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## edwardsean (Oct 18, 2020)

*Super Secret Confessions of an Elite Headfi Bragger Par Excellence (Esquire) *

It's good to hear different perspectives on the same gear. In fact, it's indispensable. It's kind of the reason we're all here. Not everyone's perspective is equally valid. Everyone–has a right to enjoy what they enjoy from a 1980's tape walkman to a 100K system. But, there is a massive disparity of technical/musical experience represented here, and my hope is always that respect and humility would follow accordingly. I accept that it doesn't always work out that way.

However, I have to say, let's be careful of attributing motives on anyone's part. Not everyone that is hyper-critical is trolling. And, not everyone that is hyper-enthusiastic is bragging.

Yes, there are those who don't only enjoy music and audio gear; they enjoy the elitism, the bragging rights that make them feel superior. This just is–not–the sense I get from the vast majority of people contributing to this thread. I don't think "club membership" was the reason most of us somehow managed to buy a Dave. I don't think the joy of owning better gear is to rub it in the face of those who have less. The fact that we can't all afford what we want in audio makes me feel worse about what I have not better. The goal of this thread, if I can say, is to help and encourage each other toward better sound together.

Some of us go through a lot of gear. There's a lot of stuff that is overpriced, makes little or no difference, or just sucks the life out of your system. But, you don't jump on headfi to trash a box or a cable. It might help, but there's little motivation for it. We're not reviewers.

When you find, e.g., a cable you hunted for that lights up your system, the instinct is not, "I got to tell everyone how much I spent. They have to know how rich I am and that I now own this prestige piece. Maybe I could wear it around my neck at the next Headfi meet. I must post about this because my boss yells at me and my dad never respected me."

_It goes a little like this:_

You find a cable on USAudio Mart, because good tech costs money, but you're not going to pay retail. You try it out. It's good, really, really good. You're surprised, even after so much gear, you're still surprised that a stupid little length of over-engineered wire can do... this. You're delighted, giddy even. You calm down. Experience has taught you to wait. Get some sleep. Over the next few days you test. Is it really that good? Confirmation bias? Which way? I heard it was good, but I also thought "no way"? You let the novelty wear off. You stop listening for what you gain and listen for what you lose. You take it out of your system, you compare with other cables, you orient, reorient, think, and listen again. Yeah, it's that good.

I got to tell somebody. But, who, in this wide world, cares about a stupid little length of over-engineered wire? Headfi.

You're not sharing, at this point, because you need confirmation or affirmation. You share because you're bursting. You share because you've worked through a bunch of pyrite and found a bit of real gold. The human instinct that follows is to not keep it to yourself, but to share knowledge of good things. It's to make membership less exclusive not more. Personally, I don't enjoy the feeling of, "I have this, but you don't." What I do love is:  "If you can, get this, so we can talk about how great it is together!" Why?

Because, in this world of misery loves company, so does happiness.


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## audio_1

I can't understand how it can be difficult to hear the difference when comparing solo Dave and Dave + Mscaler. In my experience it is easy to hear the difference and it is immediately apparent. The increase in musicality and emotional involvement on poor boring recordings, makes them much more enjoyable. Bass resolution and texture are also improved to a degree that I believe is impossible to achieve without the addition of the mscaler. I have certainly never heard this with other dacs. Mains power conditioning is also vital to get the most from Dave.


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## adrianm (Oct 18, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> Not everyone's perspective is equally valid. Everyone–has a right to enjoy what they enjoy from a 1980's tape walkman to a 100K system. But, there is a massive disparity of technical/musical experience represented here


For a non-elitist technically savvy group, whenever someone disagrees the answer is surprisingly often " you need better... everything else to hear what i'm hearing with the same components" instead of something helpful .
   Well a friend with the same headphones tested with his tt2+mscaler and confirmed there was a big delta as well (i heard it as well when i auditioned HTT2 a few months ago) so clearly that wasn't the problem.
  I've finally gotten to a point where i can hear the improvements everyone is going on about. The scenarios were the following :
1) Optical sounds horrible, not sure if it's somehow the cable, the Realtek drivers, or something else but  with the m-scaler on connected to optical i just want to kill it with fire.
2) Usb with Jitterbug out of my gaming pc sounds well..almost the same on and off, a slightly wider soundstage but very hard to pinpoint, but no longer that veil of smoothness from optical
3) Usb with Jitterbug out of my Macbook Pro 16 on battery sounds considerably better than the pc. Now there is a modest improvement in soundstage and separation, even a slight change in tonality, but for the better this time. I would put in on par with the mains filter.
These drastic differences are kind of disappointing for a product at it's price, as it shows it has a ton of problems to be fixed. Judging by how big the delta is between sounding better and sounding worse than solo Dave i guess there are still tons of improvements to be made.
  So i guess now i have to decide if i should hop on the crazy train with cables, reclockers, a dedicated streamer and spend another time and a half the price of the m-scaler to get it to the point where it's actually an upgrade all the time or just keep it as is and upgrade to an all in one later.
 All these findings were also validated by my gf just to make sure i'm not going crazy.


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## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> Not everyone's perspective is equally valid.


  I think this proves my point more than anything else i could say on the elitism subject. I do agree however. I think most people build their systems without a realistic understanding of what's going on and as such i've rarely found useful advice on head-fi. People on other  threads screaming you need thousand dollar power cables but telling me i'm crazy for suggesting a mains filter, and laughing it off as if that's snake oil.


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## adrianm

audio_1 said:


> I can't understand how it can be difficult to hear the difference when comparing solo Dave and Dave + Mscaler. In my experience it is easy to hear the difference and it is immediately apparent. The increase in musicality and emotional involvement on poor boring recordings, makes them much more enjoyable. Bass resolution and texture are also improved to a degree that I believe is impossible to achieve without the addition of the mscaler. I have certainly never heard this with other dacs. Mains power conditioning is also vital to get the most from Dave.


Well as people already know i absolutely love my Z1R's but i think they might be slightly less resolving than your Magicos 
    Either way, i got to the bottom of it, there is an improvement, mostly in soundstage and separation (call it 20%), slightly in timbre on some tracks as well, but as you can imagine comparing a live acoustic recording to some electronic stuff the delta varies.


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## edwardsean (Oct 18, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> Not everyone's perspective is equally valid.





adrianm said:


> I think this proves my point more than anything else i could say on the elitism subject



I should've completed the thought, "Not everyone's perspective is equally valid," nor should it be.

On Headfi, there are trained engineers, MOTs, musicians, "senior" audiophiles, etc. and some who are just starting out. This is a joyous thing. I respect and relish learning from everybody and everyone. I do not consider everyone to know as much as everyone else, because, you know, they don't.

–Everyone–has an equal right to their perspective–but not to demand that it be regarded on par with someone who's experience they have yet to earn.

An elite is just someone who knows more than you, more than me. When we go to the doctor, we don't say, "Wait a minute doc, I read an article on WebMD and I'd like you to consider my perspective as equally valid" right? They have invested time and effort incomparable to my own to attain a perspective I do not have.

Elit-ism is about using that knowledge to prop up yourself over others. I detest elitism, but I find most us here trying to lift one another up, not pushing each other down. So much of what I've learned I owe to members here and on AS. No one is making money on these threads. They share out of passion for audio and kindness. Not everyone, but most. And, I am immensely grateful for the ones that know so much more than me. I am thankful that we have elites here, both professional and amateur. That's a good part of why I'm here. I take it that's why you are too.

Can I ask you to stop accusing people of being shills, idiots, and dupes? Join and learn. The ride on the crazy train to crazy town, may be filled with crazy people, but it's fun.


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## TheAttorney (Oct 19, 2020)

adrianm said:


> So i guess now i have to decide if i should hop on the crazy train with cables, reclockers, a dedicated streamer and spend another time and a half the price of the m-scaler to get it to the point where it's actually an upgrade all the time or just keep it as is and upgrade to an all in one later.



Well, from all your recent posts, it's quite clear to me that you should walk away from the m-scaler and move on. There's no point in forcing yourself to like something that you just don't like. Don't worry about it - such things happen all the time. You've proven to yourself that FOMO was unwarranted on this occasion. Maybe try again in a year or two's time, or maybe you'll have moved onto something completely different by then.

It's the correct thing to do to honestly state your observations, even if it goes against the herd (I've done it myself a few times, not always to a great reception). But I do think you should revisit edwardsean's advice on how to react to people questioning your point of view - it will result in a more productive forum discussion.


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## adrianm

TheAttorney said:


> But I do think you should revisit edwardsean's advice on how to react to people questioning your point of view - it will result in a more productive forum discussion.


How exactly should i react to being ganged on?  I just posted my impressions and what i meant about "elitism" i've stated long before that, and it's not just me, it's a general opinion about this thread.



edwardsean said:


> Can I ask you to stop accusing people of being shills, idiots, and dupes? Join and learn. The ride on the crazy train to crazy town, may be filled with crazy people, but it's fun.


When exactly have i done that? I'm just stating my opinions bluntly. 



edwardsean said:


> On Headfi, there are trained engineers, MOTs, musicians, "senior" audiophiles, etc. and some who are just starting out. This is a joyous thing. I respect and relish learning from everybody and everyone. I do not consider everyone to know as much as everyone else, because, you know, they don't.


 Great, i'd love to meet some of those engineers. I'm sure they're all long gone by now, just like Rob. And i can see why.



edwardsean said:


> An elite is just someone who knows more than you, more than me. When we go to the doctor, we don't say, "Wait a minute doc, I read an article on WebMD and I'd like you to consider my perspective as equally valid" right? They have invested time and effort incomparable to my own to attain a perspective I do not have.


 Indeed, i was just trying to be polite and refrain from using the term "snobbery". In most cases it's not people who actually know stuff like engineers, it's just whoever screams the loudest and mob mentality.
   In our case it's more like getting your medical advice from Herbalife. Like i said before, for a bunch of so called experts, everyone jumps up when you disagree without any regard for the test conditions in each case. They just reach for the pitchforks. 

    When i work and someone complains that one of my programs doesn't run as intended i don't tell him to shut up, it works fine because i wrote it and i say so. Or more aptly, that it works fine for other people. I check to see the test conditions and debug it. Granted, it's my job, and this is just a hobby, but since you're comparing this forum to "professional help", if someone did actually care, that's the way to go about it, and the way i do it when someone asks me for advice on hf.
    I have a friend here who told me i'm crazy for getting Dave and he tested it himself with the m-scaler ,a Riviera AIC-10 and the Abyss 1266 vs a a 2k Sony TA-ZH1ES driving the Abyss and he thought they sounded exactly the same. I guess i should've just called him a peasant and been on my way. I've tested the music he was using (mostly old heavy metal) and it did kind of sound the same on Airpods Pro as on my setup.

    So let's not pretend Dave or any other additions gets us to some untouchable Nirvana all the time. It's all highly situational. If you listen to Mahler all the time and it's worth it for you great, but that's no reason to look down on people who simply don't get the same benefit you do out of your gear.
   On Billie Eilish tracks and on a lot of mainstream stuff i found the m-scaler to make close to 0 difference .  While i've managed to make it not sound worse, i'd call the improvement 10% at most, and that's on 5% of my playlist (live, acoustic stuff) and only when using my macbook, not my pc. 
    So the upgrade needs a bunch of upgrades to be an upgrade. And Chord isn't paying me to fix their stuff.
 I have nothing personal against you or anyone here.  I've just grown frustrated with exaggerations and oversimplifications on this thread. And i do think a lot of people fall for confirmation bias or some need for status, or approval on hf.
   I've found your impressions very helpful in deciding not to dive in head first in the m-scaler upgrade bonanza and audition a Bartok first. That's probably the way forward for me when i'll be itching for an upgrade, unless there's a Dave M-scaler (because this one is clearly made for TT2) or some new Dave.


----------



## Arniesb

ubs28 said:


> I could hear the difference between Dave and Dave + Mscaler quite easily.
> 
> But it sounded also brighter which what I found very strange, so I did not buy it in the end.


Ofc it does cause Utopia is quite bright and energetic and increase in transparency and realism can and will enhance Strong and weak points of certain systems.
Take it dark or bassy headhpones or speakers and it will be positive upgrade.


----------



## adrianm

Arniesb said:


> Ofc it does cause Utopia is quite bright and energetic and increase in transparency and realism can and will enhance Strong and weak points of certain systems.
> Take it dark or bassy headhpones or speakers and it will be positive upgrade.


Mine are dark and basy by audiophile standards and i'm not noticing much of an improvement in any areas, but hey, maybe it's a defective unit, going to return it tomorrow and ask them to check.
   What are you using it with?


----------



## Arniesb

adrianm said:


> Mine are dark and basy by audiophile standards and i'm not noticing much of an improvement in any areas, but hey, maybe it's a defective unit, going to return it tomorrow and ask them to check.
> What are you using it with?


Im not using it, but heard it multiple times. Too expensive for me, but i realy loved it With my HD800S. With Mscaler it might be too much of a good thing... Would need copper cables everywhere to add some warmth. Same with Utopia.
P.S do you swap between M Scaler and whitout it back and forthr? Maybe try few days to listen with M Scaler and then with solo Dave and you will see it if you miss it?


----------



## adrianm

Arniesb said:


> Im not using it, but heard it multiple times. Too expensive for me, but i realy loved it With my HD800S. With Mscaler it might be too much of a good thing... Would need copper cables everywhere to add some warmth. Same with Utopia.
> P.S do you swap between M Scaler and whitout it back and forthr? Maybe try few days to listen with M Scaler and then with solo Dave and you will see it if you miss it?


Yes, i've had it for 3 days now and honestly the difference is so small and inconsistent across tracks that it's barely worth testing anymore. Especially with crossfeed on. Maybe 10% more width and separation in some tracks.


----------



## Arniesb

adrianm said:


> Yes, i've had it for 3 days now and honestly the difference is so small and inconsistent across tracks that it's barely worth testing anymore. Especially with crossfeed on. Maybe 10% more width and separation in some tracks.


I still think think maybe you need more time in this hobby... Didnt think i would be ever interested in any cable that cost more than a few dollars. Never thought i will ever buy usb reclocker or Listen anything higher than 320mp3s...
Maybe comeback to M Scaler after couple years...


----------



## adrianm

Arniesb said:


> I still think think maybe you need more time in this hobby... Didnt think i would be ever interested in any cable that cost more than a few dollars. Never thought i will ever buy usb reclocker or Listen anything higher than 320mp3s...
> Maybe comeback to M Scaler after couple years...


You're a bit late to the pitchfork party. What do mp3's and reclockers  have to do with anything?


----------



## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> How exactly should i react to being ganged on?  I just posted my impressions and what i meant about "elitism" i've stated long before that, and it's not just me, it's a general opinion about this thread.
> 
> 
> When exactly have i done that? I'm just stating my opinions bluntly.
> ...



Alright. Please do take good care. I really do wish you joy in your audio pursuits.


----------



## iamoneagain (Oct 19, 2020)

Arniesb said:


> Im not using it, but heard it multiple times. Too expensive for me, but i realy loved it With my HD800S. With Mscaler it might be too much of a good thing... Would need copper cables everywhere to add some warmth. Same with Utopia.
> P.S do you swap between M Scaler and whitout it back and forthr? Maybe try few days to listen with M Scaler and then with solo Dave and you will see it if you miss it?



I know I said I’d drop off but just a comment on my setup. With poor usb input into the mscaler I needed to use the HF filter on to tame the highs on my Utopia’s. This was with stock cables and power supply.

Current setup have cheap Blue Jean copper bnc cables, expensive thick copper Danacable headphone cable, cheap Poweradd battery. Even the harshest recording are listenable. I’m not using any fancy power cable for the Dave. Just taking Rob’s advice and plugging direct in wall without other stuff in same outlet. I had it plugged into power strip at one point and dynamics took a hit.

I also just tried the Dave alone without the mscaler in the loop at all and at first I was like this actually sounds better until I remembered about mscaler lowering volume by 6 dBs. Once I accounted for this I was able to adjust the volume and hear all the improvements the mscaler makes. But the Dave is very impressive on its own and if money was tight, think I could let go of the mscaler.

Maybe this is a first and reading more will get me to downsize instead. I’ll be back to my iPhone and Grado SR-60s and forget all this nonsense.


----------



## Arniesb

adrianm said:


> You're a bit late to the pitchfork party. What do mp3's and reclockers  have to do with anything?


Just some people cant tell the difference between mp3 and flac or cant hear difference with usb from pc port and reclocker out. Didn't hear myself at first, but with more listening its easier to hear a difference.


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> Alright. Please do take good care. I really do wish you joy in your audio pursuits.


Thanks, i don't mean to be antagonistic but comments like Arniesb's prove my point.


----------



## adrianm

Arniesb said:


> Just some people cant tell the difference between mp3 and flac or cant hear difference with usb from pc port and reclocker out. Didn't hear myself at first, but with more listening its easier to hear a difference.


If i couldn't hear a difference i wouldn't be 10k deep in this hobby. I just don't like the m-scaler. At least in my current setup.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> I also just tried the Dave alone without the mscaler in the loop at all and at first I was like this actually sounds better until I remembered about mscaler lowering volume by 6 dBs.


That's the first time i hear of this, are you sure?


----------



## alxw0w (Oct 19, 2020)

Actually it's 3dB. Volume have to be lowered in digital domain when doing high upsampling as some of the transients may clip. So volume must be lowered about 3dB (it's exactly 2.7dB as I remember correctly)


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> That's the first time i hear of this, are you sure?



As mentioned just now it is approx 3dB different and that is why you cannot just compare solo Dave to Dave plus mscaler without increasing the volume. Some will say one can use pass through on the mscaler but I have never found that sounds the same as just taking mscaler out of the system and totally disconnecting it.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> As mentioned just now it is approx 3dB different and that is why you cannot just compare solo Dave to Dave plus mscaler without increasing the volume. Some will say one can use pass through on the mscaler but I have never found that sounds the same as just taking mscaler out of the system and totally disconnecting it.


Well that's useful, thanks. I'll disconnect it and see what happens.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> Well that's useful, thanks. I'll disconnect it and see what happens.



It’s just me but I think the sound of Dave with no MScaler connected is better than using mscaler on pass through.


----------



## Progisus

I found it interesting in Audio Bacon’s review he found the mscaler most enjoyable with the blue globe setting. Not positive the colour but one below white. I had to agree but forced myself to listen to white... well because


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> As mentioned just now it is approx 3dB different and that is why you cannot just compare solo Dave to Dave plus mscaler without increasing the volume. Some will say one can use pass through on the mscaler but I have never found that sounds the same as just taking mscaler out of the system and totally disconnecting it.


You're right, must still be noise from the BNCs, there's a noticeably darker background with solo Dave via optical than m-scaler via usb. And M-scaler via optical has a weird softness.
   Well that about settles it , my Dave hasn't sounded this good in 3 days .


----------



## adrianm

Progisus said:


> I found it interesting in Audio Bacon’s review he found the mscaler most enjoyable with the blue globe setting. Not positive the colour but one below white. I had to agree but forced myself to listen to white... well because


Is the blue basically a single bnc maxed out? Because when i plugged them in reverse and it would only go up to 300 something khz that sounded better than 700 to me as well.


----------



## iamoneagain (Oct 19, 2020)

Progisus said:


> I found it interesting in Audio Bacon’s review he found the mscaler most enjoyable with the blue globe setting. Not positive the colour but one below white. I had to agree but forced myself to listen to white... well because



I asked about this in the past about mscaler settings but wouldn’t the green and blue settings end up getting upsample again internally since it’s not maxing out Dave’s upsampling and bypassing it. Only the white setting bypasses Dave’s internal, allowing you to actually here what the mscaler is doing.

Oh and thanks group for letter me know about the 2.7 dBs. Yeah I think Dave on its own is better than passthru since less equipment. And instead of comparing a song with mscaler on vs passthru might be best to listen with no mscaler at all for a while and see if still enjoy as much. See after extended listening if still miss it.  I know going back and forth you’ll hear improvement but your brain adjusts and it really ends up coming down to if enjoy it the same.


----------



## iamoneagain (Oct 19, 2020)

So don’t think I’m going to go thru with my test. Using test track Trip Trap by Marcus Miller off the Laid Back album. Saw some review used this track. Anyway it goes back to what previous poster said:

Dave alone is like one of best recording you’ve every heard. But can tell it’s still a recording. Depth, air, texture don’t sound like I’m in same room with them.

When I add the mscaler it’s like I’m in the studio. Another layer removed. Highs have more sparkle, there’s more texture, air and space. Blackest background. Bass is completely controlled.

So at this point I think I’d miss it if I sold it.

One thing to point out is the Danacable on the Utopia’s took them to another level of transparency so what may be a slight change with another headphone is easily heard even compared to stock cable Utopia’s.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> I asked about this in the past about mscaler settings but wouldn’t the green and blue settings end up getting upsample again internally since it’s not maxing out Dave’s upsampling and bypassing it. Only the white setting bypasses Dave’s internal, allowing you to actually here what the mscaler is doing.
> 
> Oh and thanks group for letter me know about the 2.7 dBs. Yeah I think Dave on its own is better than passthru since less equipment. And instead of comparing a song with mscaler on vs passthru might be best to listen with no mscaler at all for a while and see if still enjoy as much. See after extended listening if still miss it.  I know going back and forth you’ll hear improvement but your brain adjusts and it really ends up coming down to if enjoy it the same.


   Well solo Dave is so much better it's not even close. Sure with the m-scaler on max there's a bit wider soundstage on some songs and a bit better separation (10% max) but with solo Dave there's a much darker background and details are a lot more apparent.
      I can see why people add batteries/LPSU's/ferrited cables to it, it just seems like the m-scaler is an RF bomb. And it's plugged into the same mains filter as Dave. But when they're connected to each other, even in passthrough, most of the benefits of the filter are gone.
    Solo Dave is optical vs m-scaler on usb with jitterbug from a desktop pc, but the m-scaler just sounds weird to me on optical.


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> Well solo Dave is so much better it's not even close. Sure with the m-scaler on max there's a bit wider soundstage on some songs and a bit better separation (10% max) but with solo Dave there's a much darker background and details are a lot more apparent.
> I can see why people add batteries/LPSU's/ferrited cables to it, it just seems like the m-scaler is an RF bomb. And it's plugged into the same mains filter as Dave. But when they're connected to each other, even in passthrough, most of the benefits of the filter are gone.
> Solo Dave is optical vs m-scaler on usb with jitterbug from a desktop pc, but the m-scaler just sounds weird to me on optical.



Usb with mscaler seems to give better soundstage. Found optical too smooth and slight rounded sound. It sounded better than my lousy usb Mac mini but once I got clean usb, definitely preferred it. That why was willing to get usb only streamer.


----------



## Triode User

iamoneagain said:


> Using test track Trip Trap by Marcus Miller off the Laid Back album. Saw some review used this track.



I use this track quite a lot when testing set ups and also in demos. It sound great and is quite revealing at the same time especially if you play it as loud as you dare.

Love the whole album as well. Great bass player.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> Usb with mscaler seems to give better soundstage. Found optical too smooth and slight rounded sound. It sounded better than my lousy usb Mac mini but once I got clean usb, definitely preferred it


Exactly what i found. I do prefer it with solo Dave though. I listened to   Trip Trap by Marcus Miller  and i have to say it sounds more or less identical. I've never noticed any tonality changes  from the m-scaler, but bass did become a lot mushier with usb, probably RF again.
    I also like to use Susan Werner's An american in Havana album for test tracks. And again almost no difference with upsampling or passthrough, just a bit more soundstage. And again solo Dave sounds better than both.
   Tomorrow i'm returning it and going to also listen to it with the Utopias. My Silver Lavricables also makes a huge difference. A lot more than the m-scaler. If someone would've said that to me a year ago i would've called snake oil lol.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> So don’t think I’m going to go thru with my test. Using test track Trip Trap by Marcus Miller off the Laid Back album. Saw some review used this track. Anyway it goes back to what previous poster said:
> 
> Dave alone is like one of best recording you’ve every heard. But can tell it’s still a recording. Depth, air, texture don’t sound like I’m in same room with them.
> 
> ...


Out of curiosity, what volume do you usually listen at?


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> Exactly what i found. I do prefer it with solo Dave though. I listened to   Trip Trap by Marcus Miller  and i have to say it sounds more or less identical. I've never noticed any tonality changes  from the m-scaler, but bass did become a lot mushier with usb, probably RF again.
> I also like to use Susan Werner's An american in Havana album for test tracks. And again almost no difference with upsampling or passthrough, just a bit more soundstage. And again solo Dave sounds better than both.
> Tomorrow i'm returning it and going to also listen to it with the Utopias. My Silver Lavricables also makes a huge difference. A lot more than the m-scaler. If someone would've said that to me a year ago i would've called snake oil lol.



Think headphone cables might be the least argued about as far as making a difference. Good manufacturers seems to understand how to reduce resistance.

And since money doesn’t seem to be an issue for you why not do another demo with Wave cables or battery. You feel it’s the RF getting in the way and if removed that might get the benefits others speak of.  One could argue that if paying that much for a device why should there have to be anything to fix. I can see how all this could lead someone to single box Bartok. Buy and be done with it.


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> Out of curiosity, what volume do you usually listen at?



Depends on the album but anywhere from lower -20s to about -30 with mscaler. Might be older album that need to go to -18 at the highest. The Marcus Miller one listening at -21. Making my way thru that album with mscaler is much more immersive. Not my usual genre but sound quality is amazing.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> Think headphone cables might be the least argued about as far as making a difference. Good manufacturers seems to understand how to reduce resistance.
> 
> And since money doesn’t seem to be an issue for you why not do another demo with Wave cables or battery. You feel it’s the RF getting in the way and if removed that might get the benefits others speak of.  One could argue that if paying that much for a device why should there have to be anything to fix. I can see how all this could lead someone to single box Bartok. Buy and be done with it.


It's not in the sense that i'm willing to spend more to get more, not that i have more than i know what to do with. I've got plenty of other hobbies waiting in line after audio and a new apartment to furnish.
   By a simple calculation, even if i fix the problem i'd end up paying the price of the Dave just for a very slight increase in soundstage and separation and get to fill my desk with ugly boxes in the process, it's even cheaper to go for Bartok if i do find it better than Dave. Or whatever comes out in the next 2 years.    I'm super happy with Dave at the moment, i just got my hopes up because of all the m-scaler hype, but i guess i should've checked other forums as well before.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> Depends on the album but anywhere from lower -20s to about -30 with mscaler. Might be older album that need to go to -18 at the highest. The Marcus Miller one listening at -21. Making my way thru that album with mscaler is much more immersive. Not my usual genre but sound quality is amazing.


I usually listen -38 to -43 (mostly new, loud stuff) but i find myself listening like 7-8  db lower after 3 days with the m-scaler.


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> It's not in the sense that i'm willing to spend more to get more, not that i have more than i know what to do with. I've got plenty of other hobbies waiting in line after audio and a new apartment to furnish.
> By a simple calculation, even if i fix the problem i'd end up paying the price of the Dave just for a very slight increase in soundstage and separation and get to fill my desk with ugly boxes in the process, it's even cheaper to go for Bartok if i do find it better than Dave. Or whatever comes out in the next 2 years.    I'm super happy with Dave at the moment, i just got my hopes up because of all the m-scaler hype, but i guess i should've checked other forums as well before.



This place is very pro Dave and Chord in general. Not as as much love out there on other forums. But notice here don’t see the ultra high end setups mentioned as much I guess since headphone related. So maxing out at Dave and Bartok.

For me I would have never even considered the Bartok since mine was a Chord journey up. Even a used Bartok at $10k would have been out of my range. But now with open box mscaler, Stack Audio, and used Dave, I’m over that level. Crazy how it adds up. That’s why I can spend anymore. Really should have gone into savings in the first and just upgraded to TT2 and be done.


----------



## iamoneagain (Oct 19, 2020)

adrianm said:


> I usually listen -38 to -43 (mostly new, loud stuff) but i find myself listening like 7-8  db lower after 3 days with the m-scaler.



Hmm, somethings not right. I really only adjust a few dBs to make up for mscaler. When I did the 3 like recommended it sounded about same volume. You sure hooking everything up from mscaler to Dave correctly. The left and right bnc can be confusing and some incorrect info out there about the output from mscaler. You’re seeing the D Bnc show up on Dave? Not sure if it was reverse would show.

Well I just tried to reverse the bnc cable and made no difference. Left and right sounds stayed the same. Thought I read on Dave you have to get cables right vs the TT2 didn’t matter. Maybe there was minor update to the Dave. Believe mine’s a 2019.


----------



## Ciggavelli (Oct 19, 2020)

I’m a big fan of my DAVE and M-Scaler, but combined they cost like $16K for both boxes, $1K+ for usb cables,  $1.5K+ Bnc cables, $1K+ for power cords

So, basically a full fledged Chord DAC costs like $20K+. (and you go even higher with servers, reclockers, power supplies, mains filtering).

Just from a business standpoint, it’s pretty genius.  I wonder how many people would jump on an integrated dac (with m-scaler) that costs $20K. I’m guessing less than would have bought the DAVE first and then later added the m-scaler.

Separating our the costs definitely makes it easier to swallow. But, if you’re at $20K for a complete dac setup, that puts you in the realm of DCS and MSB.


----------



## iamoneagain (Oct 19, 2020)

Ciggavelli said:


> I’m a big fan of my DAVE and M-Scaler, but combined they cost like $16K for both boxes, $1K+ for usb cables,  $1.5K+ Bnc cables, $1K+ for power cords
> 
> So, basically a full fledged Chord DAC costs like $20K+. (and you go even higher with servers, reclockers, power supplies, mains filtering).
> 
> ...



Guess I’m lucky. Open box and used, got combo under $10k and still have warranties on both. $40 on Blue Jean bnc cables, $100 on Poweradd.  The rest is stock. If I include my streamer I’m still under $11k.


----------



## Lgn3

adrianm said:


> Well that's useful, thanks. I'll disconnect it and see what happens.


If in





Triode User said:


> I use this track quite a lot when testing set ups and also in demos. It sound great and is quite revealing at the same time especially if you play it as loud as you dare.
> 
> Love the whole album as well. Great bass player.


Interesting choice if you believe that dynamic range of an album is an issue. 
Perhaps you don't.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/156448


----------



## Ciggavelli

iamoneagain said:


> Guess I’m lucky. Open box and used, got combo under $10k and still have warranties on both. $40 on Blue Jean bnc cables, $100 on Poweradd.  The rest is stock. If I include my streamer I’m still under $11k.


Oh, I didn't pay retail either (but I did pay more than you) .  I put the stock prices for reference.  I'm sure I could get a discount on any piece of equipment from my dealer.  And for those of you who don't have a good dealer, I recommend finding one asap...


----------



## Mircea C.

doraymon said:


> I'm reporting back after a few days of using the Lumin U1 Mini with the Dave.
> 
> The setup was simply U1 Mini > [USB] Chord Dave > Focal Utopia, more details at the bottom for the gear-heads like me.
> I compared this to the sound using my PC to stream music to the Dave via Optical (my favorite so far with Dave). To be honest I didn’t have big expectations considering the claimed “immunity” of Dave to jitter and, to some extent, to RF noise.
> ...



Thanks for sharing! What were the differences between Lumin optical vs Lumin USB into Dave and between optical from PC and optical from Lumen into Dave? Cheers!


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> Hmm, somethings not right. I really only adjust a few dBs to make up for mscaler. When I did the 3 like recommended it sounded about same volume. You sure hooking everything up from mscaler to Dave correctly. The left and right bnc can be confusing and some incorrect info out there about the output from mscaler. You’re seeing the D Bnc show up on Dave? Not sure if it was reverse would show.
> 
> Well I just tried to reverse the bnc cable and made no difference. Left and right sounds stayed the same. Thought I read on Dave you have to get cables right vs the TT2 didn’t matter. Maybe there was minor update to the Dave. Believe mine’s a 2019.


Well it's about 3 db to volume match but it just felt like i could listen at a much lower volume on solo Dave and still get all the detail, even more. I am seeing the DBNC, tried all possible combinations. If you don't get them right you don't get 700 khz, maxes out at 350. It was made like 3 months ago.


----------



## adrianm

Ciggavelli said:


> Oh, I didn't pay retail either (but I did pay more than you) .  I put the stock prices for reference.  I'm sure I could get a discount on any piece of equipment from my dealer.  And for those of you who don't have a good dealer, I recommend finding one asap...


Same here, but there's also 19% vat here to consider, all in all there's 20% discounts to be had on DCS as well and even more on Dave.


----------



## iamoneagain (Oct 19, 2020)

adrianm said:


> Well it's about 3 db to volume match but it just felt like i could listen at a much lower volume on solo Dave and still get all the detail, even more. I am seeing the DBNC, tried all possible combinations. If you don't get them right you don't get 700 khz, maxes out at 350. It was made like 3 months ago.



So if you switch cables around you lose the dual bnc connection? Mine worked either way.

I’m just shocked there would be that much difference in the volume you play it at. The Utopia’s are already so dynamic I couldn’t imagine going much higher.


----------



## Ciggavelli

iamoneagain said:


> So if you switch cables around you lose the dual bnc connection? Mine worked either way.
> 
> I’m just shocked their be that much difference in the volume you play it at. The Utopia’s are already so dynamic I couldn’t imagine going much higher.


When I had the Utopias, they sounded so much better the louder you went. It got to the point where I only really liked the Utopias when they were played loudly. I would listen for a couple of hours and my ears would ring afterward. I thought I was going to get hearing damage, and that is one of the reasons I sold them. My current headphones sound good at normal volumes, and no more ringing in my ears.

So, I guess I’m just warning you to not go down the same path


----------



## iamoneagain (Oct 19, 2020)

Ciggavelli said:


> When I had the Utopias, they sounded so much better the louder you went. It got to the point where I only really liked the Utopias when they were played loudly. I would listen for a couple of hours and my ears would ring afterward. I thought I was going to get hearing damage, and that is one of the reasons I sold them. My current headphones sound good at normal volumes, and no more ringing in my ears.
> 
> So, I guess I’m just warning you to not go down the same path



I already have ringing from too many loud concerts in my youth. Always right up front by the stage near the speakers for most of the small shows I saw. A lot of loud punk stuff so that didn’t help either. At the end of show leaving the club I could hardly hear my friends.  Surprised I’m able to tell any difference with all this high end stuff now. Other than ringing don’t think I have any hearing loss.

I have no plans to crank up the volume at home. When I attended headphone meets in the past I was shocked at how loud some people listened at. Using same headphones and same equipment, I think my ears would bleed at the level they were just listening at.


----------



## Triode User

Lgn3 said:


> Interesting choice if you believe that dynamic range of an album is an issue.
> Perhaps you don't.
> 
> http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/156448



Haha you will miss some great music if you just listen to stuff with high scores on that site. Might as well go the whole hog and select your dac from an ASR chart as well!


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> So if you switch cables around you lose the dual bnc connection? Mine worked either way.
> 
> I’m just shocked there would be that much difference in the volume you play it at. The Utopia’s are already so dynamic I couldn’t imagine going much higher.


Yeah if they're reversed no more DBNC, it only goes up to 350 khz. Well with the m-scaler it i kept feeling the need to turn it down, as it was fatiguing.


----------



## adrianm

Ciggavelli said:


> When I had the Utopias, they sounded so much better the louder you went. It got to the point where I only really liked the Utopias when they were played loudly. I would listen for a couple of hours and my ears would ring afterward. I thought I was going to get hearing damage, and that is one of the reasons I sold them. My current headphones sound good at normal volumes, and no more ringing in my ears.
> 
> So, I guess I’m just warning you to not go down the same path


That's good to know, i guess i'll consider the Empyreans and HE1000Se instead, though this is why i prefer closed backs, as i tend to listen at relatively low volume. The Arya was kind of a bust for me in detail retrieval and most areas.


----------



## Lgn3

Lgn3 said:


> If in
> Interesting choice if you believe that dynamic range of an album is an issue.
> Perhaps you don't.
> 
> http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/156448





Triode User said:


> Haha you will miss some great music if you just listen to stuff with high scores on that site. Might as well go the whole hog and select your dac from an ASR chart as well!



Did I say that my musical tatstes are based on dynamic range scores ?. My point, which you seem to have missed is that it is a strange  choice to use a masively compressed mastering as a demo track,. Not sure how many black backgrounds you can hear on that track. There again over compressed music  can sound_ intitiall_y impressive in a room full of people purely because it is so loud. Not sure what my choice of DAC has to do with my post but having read the excellent recent posts by Edwardsean I will not bite back. I would say, however, he was not quite correct in saying than nobody makes any money out of posting on this forum was he ?


----------



## adrianm

Lgn3 said:


> I would say, however, he was not quite correct in saying than nobody makes any money out of posting on this forum was he ?


Yeah i was going to reply to that i've dropped it like a hot potato since the last time i did admins immediately deleted my posts. Nothing against Nick and his cables which i do understand now ,as there seems to be a need for ferrites with  the m-scaler, but a quick glance at the sponsor list (everyone) would show the true purpose of the forum.


Lgn3 said:


> My point, which you seem to have missed is that it is a strange choice to use a masively compressed mastering as a demo track,. Not sure how many black backgrounds you can hear on that track.


I do have to agree with this


----------



## musickid (Oct 20, 2020)

Test the mscaler not with pass thru but with the dac playing _unconnected _to the mscaler. It helps i find with mTT2 and mH2. Gives a more honest feel to what's really going on here and the positive attributes of the mscaler really shine through.


----------



## adrianm

Well i've tested it at my dealer with the Utopia and He1000se as well, with a Naim nd5 xs2 via bnc and some aftermarket bnc cables.
    I hate it with them even more than with my Z1R, it makes them even brighter and i can't detect any improvement besides a bit wider soundstage and a slightly smoother tonality which sounds unnatural to me.
   The Utopias do benefit from it as it has a pretty small soundstage but overall i didn't find it better than the Z1R, very similar actually, just less bass. I think it's a lot better than the Stellias though. 
   The HE1000se was clearly in another league,  a lot faster than both but pretty bright and worse still (to my ears than the ) with the m-scaler.
   I preferred all 3 connected to solo Dave, there's no saving the m-scaler for me. 
  Has anyone used a Naim nd5 xs2 as a streamer via bnc (only option apparently) with Dave?


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> Depends on the album but anywhere from lower -20s to about -30 with mscaler. Might be older album that need to go to -18 at the highest. The Marcus Miller one listening at -21. Making my way thru that album with mscaler is much more immersive. Not my usual genre but sound quality is amazing.


I couldn't really go louder than -38 with the Utopias on most stuff on TIdal, maybe it's easier to spot the differences at that volume.


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> I couldn't really go louder than -38 with the Utopias on most stuff on TIdal, maybe it's easier to spot the differences at that volume.



Trying -38 (w mscaler)with that Trip Trap song with Tidal thru roon. It’s listenable but pretty quiet. This would be if almost listening in the background. So either you listen really quiet, Tidal directly is louder, or my ears are shot. At this level I wouldn’t be wasting money trying to get more out my system when a simple volume adjustment would fix it.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> Trying -38 (w mscaler)with that Trip Trap song with Tidal thru roon. It’s listenable but pretty quiet. This would be if almost listening in the background. So either you listen really quiet, Tidal directly is louder, or my ears are shot. At this level I wouldn’t be wasting money trying to get more out my system when a simple volume adjustment would fix it.


https://tidal.com/browse/track/89386270 this one? Solo Dave i find -45 the loudest i can go without it being annoying. The utopias are open backed so there's no isolation, maybe that accounts for some of the difference. I listened at similar volumes with the Utopias in the quiet room ,though not this song.


----------



## adrianm

As a side note, though i would've called snake oil , i think part of the reason the m-scaler sounded so bad on optical was because the cable was crap and apparently optical cables don't all sound the same. I left with this to try at home and i'm DEFINITELY keeping it :


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> https://tidal.com/browse/track/89386270 this one? Solo Dave i find -45 the loudest i can go without it being annoying. The utopias are open backed so there's no isolation, maybe that accounts for some of the difference. I listened at similar volumes with the Utopias in the quiet room ,though not this song.



Can you name the track or screenshot it. Link doesn’t work for me. I’m in the U.S.

Also in the past it seemed you couldn’t hear differences in your output and thought streamer were a waste a money. As you can see different cables and sources make a difference. Funny thing with usb cables in the past is the cheaper ones end better than my $100 cable. That’s why haven’t bothered to try anything other than stock cable.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> Can you name the track or screenshot it. Link doesn’t work for me. I’m in the U.S.
> 
> Also in the past it seemed you couldn’t hear differences in your output and thought streamer were a waste a money. As you can see different cables and sources make a difference. Funny thing with usb cables in the past is the cheaper ones end better than my $100 cable. That’s why haven’t bothered to try anything other than stock cable.


No, i said i tested Dave before i bought it with a Node2i(300 euros) vs a Naim ND555 with psu (30k+) and the Naim did sound slightly better but it was USB vs coax on the Node. so that could've been part of the reason. Even if it wasn't, the bang for buck aspect was laughable, same with cables as well. 
    I've also tested an Auralic Vega G1 streaming to itself vs my macbook pro streaming to it via usb and it sounded literally exactly the same. Tried for 45 minutes to find a difference.
     So i'm as skeptical as could be. I'm willing to be proven wrong though, which is why i would consider testing others.

   My chord c-line sounded noticeably better than a 5$ one with my older sony dac. I  think that there's a minimum standard to be met and the cheap ones don't. Not that expensive frozen cables have some super advanced science that can't be explained. At one point confirmation bias kicks in and if you spend 2k on a usb cable because Johny Darko and the forum said it sounds better, you're going in expecting to hear that. I go in expecting everything is snake oil so unless it blows me away from the first 10 seconds i attribute it to either confirmation bias, or too small of a difference to spend the money. Except the m-scaler, i tried to like it for 3 days.
    I'm not saying i know exactly where the point of maximum gain is, probably higher than i expect. But the fact that there are 60-70% discounts on super expensive cables says something.
    I'm also not saying i have anything against expensive cables, if i had a 50k system i'd spend maybe even up to 5k on cables just because they look nicer, 0 improvement required, more if they actually do .
  Like i said with watches, it's jewelry, i'm fine with that. It serves a purpose, but i don't like kidding myself about what that is, or others.
  This optical cable actually does sound a lot better than the 10 euro one, and i'm sure the m-scaler would've sounded...less bad with it. Everything sounds.. clearer for lack of a better word. And the image a is less fuzzy, sharper.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> Can you name the track or screenshot it. Link doesn’t work for me. I’m in the U.S.


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


>



Oh same track but run directly thru Tidal. Not sure if running thru roon changes anything.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> Oh same track but run directly thru Tidal. Not sure if running thru roon changes anything.


It shouldn't, i also have loudness equalization disabled in Tidal, and it's the non-mqa version


----------



## edwardsean

adrianm said:


> i don't like kidding myself about what that is, or others.



We're with you. This is all I mean when I ask you to please stop accusing others, and assuming you are the only honest person here. 

My assumption is that very, very few people here can toss off a few thousand dollars and not feel it. I go into these purchases half hoping it will sound better, half hoping it won't. I feel fortunate to have enough money for audio. I have no budget left over for gilded self-deception. The only thing I like less than wasting my own money is wasting someone else's. 

On a different note:
"Trip Trap" is a fantastic track. Thanks to everyone who recommended it! I'm a guitarist myself but I have a soft spot for bassists from Jaco to John Myung. Marcus Miller's talent... the stuff of legends.


----------



## adrianm

edwardsean said:


> We're with you. This is all I mean when I ask you to please stop accusing others, and assuming you are the only honest person here.
> 
> My assumption is that very, very few people here can toss off a few thousand dollars and not feel it. I go into these purchases half hoping it will sound better, half hoping it won't. I feel fortunate to have enough money for audio. I have no budget left over for gilded self-deception. The only thing I like less than wasting my own money is wasting someone else's.
> 
> ...


Will try, i've just...seen some stuff since i've been on Hf. I didn't just mean this thread.
  With the M-scaler listening to it was supposed to be just a formality, i was just taken aback when i did. At least i know it's not for me. I do recommend that anyone using it via optical try that QED reference cable since it seems to me to amplify the jitter that was already there.


----------



## gnomen

adrianm said:


> apparently optical cables don't all sound the same. I left with this to try at home and i'm DEFINITELY keeping it



I’ve recently discovered this too.  As it was only for my smart tv connection, I just went for Kabeldirekt.  Amazing difference.  I was prepared for differences with electrical signals but not with optical as well.  Now you have me wondering if I should stretch to the QED. Let’s know how you get on.


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## adrianm

gnomen said:


> I’ve recently discovered this too.  As it was only for my smart tv connection, I just went for Kabeldirekt.  Amazing difference.  I was prepared for differences with electrical signals but not with optical as well.  Now you have me wondering if I should stretch to the QED. Let’s know how you get on.


  Not sure if it's worth it for movies, but it was pretty obvious with music. It's like that weird blurring effect some MQA tracks have on Dave was always there with the other cable and this one just removed it,  i'll keep testing and let you know.


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> Not sure if it's worth it for movies, but it was pretty obvious with music. It's like that weird blurring effect some MQA tracks have on Dave was always there with the other cable and this one just removed it,  i'll keep testing and let you know.



Think that’s good way to describe bad optical. At first it may sound better because of the blurring. I sort called this rounded. But with that you lose precise soundstage placement. Also felt like was a layer between the music that wasn’t there with good usb.


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## kenray536 (Oct 20, 2020)

adrianm said:


> As a side note, though i would've called snake oil , i think part of the reason the m-scaler sounded so bad on optical was because the cable was crap and apparently optical cables don't all sound the same. I left with this to try at home and i'm DEFINITELY keeping it :


Wow...a lot going on in this thread....lol

I am tempted to buy this cable right now on Amazon. I run a Bluesound Node 2i into the mscaler or Dave.

You could hear that much of a difference?


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## kenray536 (Oct 20, 2020)

HF filter On or Off?

I have been running mine Off, but wanted to get everyone else's thoughts. I have Dave + MScaler.


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## doraymon

Mircea C. said:


> Thanks for sharing! What were the differences between Lumin optical vs Lumin USB into Dave and between optical from PC and optical from Lumen into Dave? Cheers!


Lumin optical vs usb very difficult to tell the difference. There is still something in the bass which sounds better to my ears with optical but we are talking really nuances.
As such, differences between PC optical and Lumin optical are the same as I describe in my post.


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## doraymon

Guys, anyone in Dubai with a Dave who is available to do a test hooking my Lumin via optical and checking if 24/192 is working? 
it might not be ideal during COVID times but let me know if you are around. Thanks


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## adrianm

kenray536 said:


> HF filter On or Off?
> 
> I have been running mine Off, but wanted to get everyone else's thoughts. I have Dave + MScaler.


I've been running it off since i got Dave and didn't notice much of a difference with it on, i do mostly listen to flacs on tidal though, no hi-res stuff.


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## adrianm

kenray536 said:


> Wow...a lot going on in this thread....lol
> 
> I am tempted to buy this cable right now on Amazon. I run a Bluesound Node 2i into the mscaler or Dave.
> 
> You could hear that much of a difference?


I would say so, but it's a new day. Let me make a cappuccino and test some more to make sure.


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## adrianm (Oct 21, 2020)

kenray536 said:


> You could hear that much of a difference?


Wow, it really is. Using this track https://tidal.com/browse/track/107380557 the differences are obvious, it's like a veil has lifted. The image is  more focused, the movement of the guitar strings is  better delineated and voices a bit clearer.
    That blur effect of the old cable was amplified by the m-scaler to ridiculous amounts, i almost want to try it again with this cable, but there's still the brightness issue.
The bigger issue though is the fact that a 150$ cable sounds so different from a 10$ one puts into question Dave's jitter immunity. I can imagine my crappy Realtek ALC1220 integrated soundcard puts out much more jitter of it's own than the delta between cables.


----------



## adrianm

adrianm said:


> The bigger issue though is the fact that a 150$ cable sounds so different from a 10$ one puts into question Dave's jitter immunity


I'm sure this isn't news and i'm a bit late to the party. I can see why the usb streamers now, as usb data gets reclocked.


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## adrianm (Oct 21, 2020)

adrianm said:


> voices a bit clearer.


Scratch that, a lot better. I keep switching them around and i can't believe i have been living like that lol. on https://tidal.com/browse/track/115895791 voices sound a lot better , as does piano on fan favourite Band of Horses- the funeral  . Overall everything sounds MUCH less fatiguing. Yet tons of measurements and blogs claim optical cables don't matter, they all sound the same, margin of error, etc.
    I think that Dave, and even more so, the m-scaler's, upsampling shines a spotlight on the effects of jitter, and any other things that might affect the original signal. I never noticed the softness with my old cable untill the m-scaler just completely blew it up out of proportions, which got me thinking the optical did sound a bit softer than my laptop usb and i should test a higher end one.
   That said, i'm definitely getting the m-scaler back for another listen, but i'm getting it with a lpsu and some decent bnc cables.  And even if i do switch to a lpsu usb streamer (0 jitter, it should theoretically be best) i'm still keeping this cable, it's pure gold.


----------



## miketlse

adrianm said:


> Scratch that, a lot better. I keep switching them around and i can't believe i have been living like that lol. on https://tidal.com/browse/track/115895791 voices sound a lot better , as does piano on fan favourite Band of Horses- the funeral  . Overall everything sounds MUCH less fatiguing. Yet tons of measurements and blogs claim optical cables don't matter, they all sound the same, margin of error, etc.
> I think that Dave, and even more so, the m-scaler's, upsampling shines a spotlight on the effects of jitter, and any other things that might affect the original signal. I never noticed the softness with my old cable untill the m-scaler just completely blew it up out of proportions, which got me thinking the optical did sound a bit softer than my laptop usb and i should test a higher end one.
> That said, i'm definitely getting the m-scaler back for another listen, but i'm getting it with a lpsu and some decent bnc cables.  And even if i do switch to a lpsu usb streamer (0 jitter, it should theoretically be best) i'm still keeping this cable, it's pure gold.


Read the section on optical cables in post #3 of the Mojo thread, and check whether you are comparing apples with apples.
Do both cables have lens caps on the end of the fibres? 
Are all the lens caps clean, or are some of them contaminated with finger sweat?
Are the cables short - long cables with lots of coils will have lots of sidewall reflections, which will impact the wavefront at the start of each pulse of light?
Are all the plugs secure in the sockets - if not the light beams can get misaligned, which can cause problems.


----------



## adrianm

miketlse said:


> Do both cables have lens caps on the end of the fibres?


They did, if you mean the plastic protectors.


miketlse said:


> Are all the lens caps clean, or are some of them contaminated with finger sweat?


Erm, no, the old cable probably was, i've wiped the lens at both ends with a cloth (not sure what the proper way to do it is, i'll try alcohol too) and it does seem to sound better now.


miketlse said:


> Are the cables short - long cables with lots of coils will have lots of sidewall reflections, which will impact the wavefront at the start of each pulse of light?


The cheap one is 3m long and the new one is 2m long.


miketlse said:


> Are all the plugs secure in the sockets - if not the light beams can get misaligned, which can cause problems.


The cheap one is secure but it doesn't take much for it to fall out, especially in the m-scaler i could never get it to click in, it just kind of hung in place and would fall if touched.
The qed one locks in place very firmly.
Overall i still think the qed one sounds a bit clearer ,but  the delta is smaller now.


----------



## Triode User

edwardsean said:


> On a different note:
> "Trip Trap" is a fantastic track. Thanks to everyone who recommended it! I'm a guitarist myself but I have a soft spot for bassists from Jaco to John Myung. Marcus Miller's talent... the stuff of legends.



If you like Marcus Miller, have you tried Victor Wooten?


----------



## adrianm (Oct 21, 2020)

miketlse said:


> Read the section on optical cables in post #3 of the Mojo thread, and check whether you are comparing apples with apples.


Well i kept testing and the impressions remain the same, the QED definitely sounds less "fuzzy" , with more depth and it's especially apparent on piano and guitar strings. Granted, the very loose fit on the m-scaler might have played a part, i still didn't like it on usb, especially due to the background noise and brighter sound, but that also remained on the Naim nd5 via coax.
  Edit : retested with Agnes Obel's Piano Sessions off Philharmonics (Deluxe Edition) and there's still a stark difference on the way piano and strings sound.


----------



## edwardsean

Triode User said:


> If you like Marcus Miller, have you tried Victor Wooten?



I run across his name with Stanley Clarke, but never really dived into his stuff. Please recommend a track.


----------



## iamoneagain (Oct 21, 2020)

The optical connections on the Dave and mscaler are kind weird. I couldn’t the 2 cables I had to snap into place like I could with the Hugo 2. I also couldn’t get them to output to 192k like I did with the Hugo 2. So think that was affecting the sound. But even with that being the case it still sounded better than the Mac mini usb output. That had no weight to it. Bass was much better with optical. I almost wrote off usb all together.

Wasn’t until tried the usb on MacBook Pro that realized usb could sound good, if not better than optical. At that point I was thinking of either buying a glass optical cable that snapped into place or a better usb streamer. I went with the streamer because the MacBook was old and dying.

Not sure if you have access to any hires files but would be good to see if 192k works on your optical cables. That’s the true test.

I actually just switched back to Tidal from Qobuz after realizing differences between the hires files and 44k were so minor with the mscaler in place. Qobuz still has missing albums and would rather have that larger section. Only issue is there’s at least 20-30 albums in my selection that are MQA only. On quick test MQA unfolded still sounds pretty good but less precise soundstage compared to the cd version thru mscaler/Dave.


----------



## adrianm (Oct 21, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> Not sure if you have access to any hires files but would be good to see if 192k works on your optical cables. That’s the true test.


They don't. I've tried. Not sure if it's Dave, the mobo drivers or the cable. FWIW this one doesn't output anything at 192 when i test with the windows tool, the cheap one just outputs some horrible static noise .


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> Wasn’t until tried the usb on MacBook Pro that realized usb could sound good, if not better than optical. At that point I was thinking of either buying a glass optical cable that snapped into place or a better usb streamer. I went with the streamer because the MacBook was old and dying.


My macbook pro is a new one so no usb ports,just thunderbolt, i'm not sure if the adapter has any impact but i'll a/b again with the new optical cable. Still have to get a streamer in and i'm not sure if the Naim Nd5 xs2 is a good choice since it only has a bnc connection.
    Out of Innuous, Auralic, Lumin and the popular choices does any one of them have a pc version of the app?


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> They don't. I've tried. Not sure if it's Dave, the mobo drivers or the cable. FWIW this one doesn't output anything at 192 when i test with the windows tool, the cheap one just outputs some horrible static noise .



That sort of was the other reason I went for usb streamer. No issues with 192k files. And I couldn’t be sure new optical would actually fix the softness vs knowing better usb was showing real improvement.

I have no plans to play with expensive usb cables. Saw article on how basically the shorter, the better, so just ordered cheap short one from Amazon. Will get here today and see if I can hear any difference. With the Hugo 2 one of those $80 Cinnamon cables was brighter and worse than cheap $5 cable from Amazon.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> That sort of was the other reason I went for usb streamer. No issues with 192k files. And I couldn’t be sure new optical would actually fix the softness vs knowing better usb was showing real improvement.
> 
> I have no plans to play with expensive usb cables. Saw article on how basically the shorter, the better, so just ordered cheap short one from Amazon. Will get here today and see if I can hear any difference. With the Hugo 2 one of those $80 Cinnamon cables was brighter and worse than cheap $5 cable from Amazon.


Do you know if the BNC input is also reclocked to Dave's master clock? Aka also "jitter immune" , though i know some claim reclockers make a difference, and from what i'm seeing, they probably do. This new cable made crossfeed 3 just a focused and clear as 0 or 1,and improved depth by quite a bit, so clearly not jitter immune. 
    I'm trying to make a short list of what streamers to audition based on their inputs. Innuos isn't in the area and tbh i don't need/want storage or roon, so i'm looking for something with preferably a nice windows interface as well. 
      Though Tidal just announced Tidal Connect so it might be better to wait and see what streamers support it.


----------



## miketlse

adrianm said:


> They did, if you mean the plastic protectors. No, the end caps are stuck onto the end of the optical fibre, but they can become detached (see link). The plastic protectors are intended to help prevent the end caps (if they are present) becoming dirty, scratched, detached etc.
> 
> Erm, no, the old cable probably was, i've wiped the lens at both ends with a cloth (not sure what the proper way to do it is, i'll try alcohol too) and it does seem to sound better now. Alcohol is probably the best that you can realistically do, apart from grinding with presumably a very fine grit paper (plus a microscope to view the condition of the end cap)
> 
> ...


Hope this helps you experiment with obtaining better sound using optical cables, without needing to spend the earth.


----------



## adrianm

miketlse said:


> Hope this helps you experiment with obtaining better sound using optical cables, without needing to spend the earth.


Thanks, the cheap one is a Sonorous , and it's only 2 months old so it hasn't seen much moving around, but it has been coiled multiple times as apparently 3m was too long. It is plastic though so i'm not sure if there's an impact, maybe the light bending adding to the jitter while using it?
   This is by far the biggest upgrade i've had well..since Dave, there is more  a discernable depth to the music that wasn't there before and tonality has changed, it's so different i'm still getting accustomed to it. 
    This has me seriously considering a high end streamer as i'm sure there is more improvement to be had from even less jitter and the popular opinion is that usb is preferred  to toslink.
    Any recommendations? i'm curious what the delta is going from a Hifiberry to Aries G1 to a DCS Network Bridge.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> Any recommendations? i'm curious what the delta is going from a Hifiberry to Aries G1 to a DCS Network Bridge.



Unfortunately there is only one way for you to find out and that is to try in your own system. This is especially the case as you have not had an easy journey with the Mscaler. I have not heard the dCS but I have compared a few including the higher end Innuos and in my system they made a really worthwhile improvement with both solo Dave and Dave+Mscaler. There are many other makes though and it might take a few weeks of demos to home in on what you like and fundamentally whether you want to go with optical, usb or spdif. Some high end ones only do one.


----------



## saudio7

Aries G1 benefits from adding USB cleaning like iFi, only G2 has galvanic isolation, but still I think it is cheaper to add stuff to G1, didn‘t try G2. 
Improvements when adding iGalvanic or micro iUSB 3.0 are small but easy to hear.


----------



## MatW

saudio7 said:


> Aries G1 benefits from adding USB cleaning like iFi, only G2 has galvanic isolation, but still I think it is cheaper to add stuff to G1, didn‘t try G2.
> Improvements when adding iGalvanic or micro iUSB 3.0 are small but easy to hear.


I only know the G2 but I'm very pleased with it. But cannot comment on how it compares.


----------



## adrianm

saudio7 said:


> Aries G1 benefits from adding USB cleaning like iFi, only G2 has galvanic isolation, but still I think it is cheaper to add stuff to G1, didn‘t try G2.
> Improvements when adding iGalvanic or micro iUSB 3.0 are small but easy to hear.


Since the G2 has galvanic isolation, as well as Dave, wouldn't that create a ground loop?


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> here are many other makes though and it might take a few weeks of demos to home in on what you like and fundamentally whether you want to go with optical, usb or spdif. Some high end ones only do one.


Yeah i was considering getting the Naim nd5 xs2 (bnc and torroidal psu), Lumin u1 mini (everything and switching psu)  and Arires G1 (usb and dual lpsu), i feel like Aries is the most streaming focused one. And something cheaper like a ProJect Stream Box S2 Ultra or  Stack Audio Link 2 to get a feel for the differences. Or my dealer recommended 3d lab in france.
   I was curious if SPDIF data also gets reclocked like usb *allegedly* LOL.


----------



## miketlse

adrianm said:


> Thanks, the cheap one is a Sonorous , and it's only 2 months old so it hasn't seen much moving around, but it has been coiled multiple times as apparently 3m was too long. It is plastic though so i'm not sure if there's an impact, maybe the light bending adding to the jitter while using it?
> This is by far the biggest upgrade i've had well..since Dave, there is more  a discernable depth to the music that wasn't there before and tonality has changed, it's so different i'm still getting accustomed to it.
> This has me seriously considering a high end streamer as i'm sure there is more improvement to be had from even less jitter and the popular opinion is that usb is preferred  to toslink.
> Any recommendations? i'm curious what the delta is going from a Hifiberry to Aries G1 to a DCS Network Bridge.


Sorry, I don't have a high end streamer, so can't provide an authoritative answer.
You are already at my level - considering Allo or Tinkerboard based streamer.


----------



## silkytoad

adrianm said:


> Since the G2 has galvanic isolation, as well as Dave, wouldn't that create a ground loop?


Should I be worried about this? I’m planning to upgrade to DAVE with my G2.1 and Sablon 2020 USB cable, will both galvanic isolations cause issues or defeat the purpose?


----------



## adrianm

miketlse said:


> Sorry, I don't have a high end streamer, so can't provide an authoritative answer.
> You are already at my level - considering Allo or Tinkerboard based streamer.


What does you chain look like?


----------



## miketlse

adrianm said:


> What does you chain look like?


I don't have a DAVE, but I do use various systems according to my mood/need.


old PC > optical out > Mojo or hugo 2
Mojopoly
I am intending to resurrect the Shanling M1 > USB > Mojo, for use in the office
I had planned to get a 2Go, during covid working from home, but know that when working on my computer, I am not really consciously listening to the music, so 2Go money would not be justified.
A much cheaper SBC based system would be much easier to justify, especially using optical cable to reduce the RFI impact


----------



## adrianm

miketlse said:


> I had planned to get a 2Go,


From what i've heard the software and connectivity has issues, but i've heard that about mojopoly 2.



miketlse said:


> old PC > optical out > Mojo


this sounds amazing.Had it for almost 4 years now. I much preferred it to the Sony TA-ZH1ES and with the risk of upsetting everyone again:
I think Mojo is the best thing Chord makes except Dave. I didn't like the Hugo 2, it sounded too bright to me , even with the mojo filter and i didn't even find the TT2 a big enough leap from Mojo, it was just more of the same, better but not radically different with my easy to drive headphones, and also too bright.
     If Dave wasn't around, i would've stuck with Mojo.


----------



## adrianm

miketlse said:


> A much cheaper SBC based system would be much easier to justify, especially using optical cable to reduce the RFI impact


I agree, but now that i've heard this cable, i can't unhear it. And i'm kinda calling bs on Dave's jitter immunity. Bent or not, the old one never made DAVE sound like this.
  So i'm more curious what effect would reducing jitter  further  would have, and i think the best way to do that is starting at the source. And it does resonate with what others  have been saying about usb reclocking and etc.
    I'm still skeptical but i have to hear it for myself.


----------



## saudio7

adrianm said:


> Yeah i was considering getting the Naim nd5 xs2 (bnc and torroidal psu), Lumin u1 mini (everything and switching psu)  and Arires G1 (usb and dual lpsu), i feel like Aries is the most streaming focused one. And something cheaper like a ProJect Stream Box S2 Ultra or  Stack Audio Link 2 to get a feel for the differences. Or my dealer recommended 3d lab in france.
> I was curious if SPDIF data also gets reclocked like usb *allegedly* LOL.


I checked ProJect against G1 and G1 is better even if you add better power supply to streambox it sounds brighter.


----------



## adrianm

saudio7 said:


> I checked ProJect against G1 and G1 is better even if you add better power supply to streambox it sounds brighter.


There was a fellow saying he added G1 to his M-scaler/Dave and it made zero difference vs pc and ProJect made it sound worse, he was in awe of the DCS Network bridge, others ended up disappointed by that as well. I guess i'll start with the Naim nd5 xs2, and then the G1.


----------



## andrewd01

alxw0w said:


> As for hqplayer vs m scaler. For me it wasn't even close. Hqplayer and its filters did something to the sound, but effect wasn't close to what is m scaler offering. Sound shapes were flatter not as rounded. Smoothness wasn't the same, only decay feeling seemed to be pretty close.



On what server?  The source matters.


----------



## Hooster

adrianm said:


> *I think Mojo is the best thing Chord makes except Dave.* I didn't like the Hugo 2, it sounded too bright to me , even with the mojo filter and i didn't even find the TT2 a big enough leap from Mojo, it was just more of the same, better but not radically different with my easy to drive headphones, and also too bright.
> If Dave wasn't around, i would've stuck with Mojo.



Thanks for this, it is very much appreciated.


----------



## ubs28 (Oct 21, 2020)

To me, it sounds like Chord took the DNA of the Mojo and used it for the Hugo 2. So not sure how people can dislike the Hugo 2 but like Mojo imo.

I actually don’t like the Hugo 2 and Mojo myself. But the only reason I have them is because DAP’s are not good either and they are also more expensive. So it is more like picking the lesser of evils.


----------



## alxw0w

andrewd01 said:


> On what server?  The source matters.


I only did tests using pc and raspberry with ropieee, so cannot comment on other sources etc. What surprised me was change that hqplayer made for mojo. For mojo I would say the improvement was the biggest and I could stick to that.


----------



## adrianm

ubs28 said:


> To me, it sounds like Chord took the DNA of the Mojo and used it for the Hugo 2. So not sure how people can dislike the Hugo 2 but like Mojo imo.
> 
> I actually don’t like the Hugo 2 and Mojo myself. But the only reason I have them is because DAP’s are not good either and they are also more expensive. So it is more like picking the lesser of evils.


Well i didn't like it more than Mojo, it just sounded brighter to me, and like the m-scaler i prefer the darker sound over the slightly increased soundstage. To be fair i haven't tried the Hugo2 on optical, just usb, and it makes a huge difference to Mojo. Back then i still believed all Chord dacs are *everything* immune.


----------



## ubs28

The Hugo 2 is indeed brighter. But with the “Mojo filter” it gets closer to the Mojo.


----------



## adrianm

ubs28 said:


> The Hugo 2 is indeed brighter. But with the “Mojo filter” it gets closer to the Mojo.


It does, but i still saw little reason to upgrade for my portable setup back then. I'll probably give it another listen when it's time to go back to work and need a new portable setup, something easier to carry around than the Z1R.


----------



## adrianm

miketlse said:


> Hope this helps you experiment with obtaining better sound using optical cables, without needing to spend the earth.


As a follow up i just realized my old cable wouldn't even handle 24/96, i usually have Tidal set to play Hi-fi, not master and avoid mqa tracks, but i accidentally left in on Master today and a mqa track came up it just cut sound and Tidal switched outputs to my gaming soundcard.


----------



## ecwl

adrianm said:


> As a follow up i just realized my old cable wouldn't even handle 24/96, i usually have Tidal set to play Hi-fi, not master and avoid mqa tracks, but i accidentally left in on Master today and a mqa track came up it just cut sound and Tidal switched outputs to my gaming soundcard.


Huh? But the stock optical and USB cables that come with DAVE and M-Scaler can handle 24/96.


----------



## adrianm

ecwl said:


> Huh? But the stock optical and USB cables that come with DAVE and M-Scaler can handle 24/96.


I can't test  to compare ,since it's too short. The Sonorous one can as well, theoretically, if i play the windows sound options test tone through it at 24/96 it goes through, but if i Tidal Mqa track comes along it switches outputs.


----------



## dstubked

Is it me or they screwed the manual up? https://chordelectronics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Dave-User-manual.pdf

I followed the manual and I believe they miswrote the position of the left and right xlr connector. The Dave sounded really bad I was regretting my purchase 2 days into the Dave before I swapped my xlr cables connector around and got relieved!


----------



## ecwl

dstubked said:


> Is it me or they screwed the manual up? https://chordelectronics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Dave-User-manual.pdf
> 
> I followed the manual and I believe they miswrote the position of the left and right xlr connector. The Dave sounded really bad I was regretting my purchase 2 days into the Dave before I swapped my xlr cables connector around and got relieved!


Huh... You’re right. The manual is wrong. Didn’t even notice it because I just assumed the connector closest to the right speaker is the right XLR connector and same for left.


----------



## Articnoise

Hooster said:


> Thanks for this, it is very much appreciated.



I take what Adrian says with a big grain of salt. I advise you to do the same .


----------



## adrianm

Articnoise said:


> I take what Adrian says with a big grain of salt. I advise you to do the same .


I've just stated my personal opinions, just like with the m-scaler.
    You can take this with a big grain of salt though, this cable made a bigger difference  then the m-scaler (for the better) and i'm sure it's because the old optical cable was crap. It still sounded better than a 100 euro usb cable + jitterbug out of a macbook pro though so i'm not sure what's happening. I feel like i got a new dac though.
    I can only conclude that's why the m-scaler sounded so bad and i'm getting it for another audition tomorrow.


----------



## JaZZ

adrianm said:


> I've just stated my personal opinions, just like with the m-scaler.
> You can take this with a big grain of salt though, this cable made a bigger difference  then the m-scaler (for the better) and i'm sure it's because the old optical cable was crap. It still sounded better than a 100 euro usb cable + jitterbug out of a macbook pro though so i'm not sure what's happening. I feel like i got a new dac though.
> I can only conclude that's why the m-scaler sounded so bad and i'm getting it for another audition tomorrow.


Good move! 

I also felt the M Scaler made the sound brighter, but didn't equate it with «worse» – it was just brighter. It took me a few seconds to reduce the treble on my equalizer by a few µdB. Synergy is a dangerous thing (given that no audio component is really neutral, let alone sound transducers). It can fool you into thinking the less honest electronics component be the better one. Whereas to my ears the M Scaler is a revolutionary step towards high fidelity. It manages to make 44.1 kHz recordings sound better (more lifelike) than hi-res recordings, and hi-res recording still better than without it.


----------



## adrianm

JaZZ said:


> Good move!
> 
> I also felt the M Scaler made the sound brighter, but didn't equate it with «worse» – it was just brighter. It took me a few seconds to reduce the treble on my equalizer by a few µdB. Synergy is a dangerous thing (given that no audio component is really neutral, let alone sound transducers). It can fool you into thinking the less honest electronics component be the better one. Whereas to my ears the M Scaler is a revolutionary step towards high fidelity. It manages to make 44.1 kHz recordings sound better (more lifelike) than hi-res recordings, and hi-res recording still better than without it.


Well for me , with usb it was a lot brighter and with a noisy background, less definition, etc out of gaming pc. Better out of macbook, but still not as black  a background as optical.
  On optical though it was borderline unlistenable with the amount of smoothness added, it only later hit me that even solo Dave, though not as bright is a bit smoother on optical than usb, with a less clarity.
   So much so that i could never go past CF2, since the image became too blurry, even at 2 sometimes. 
 With the new cable it's just as laser focused on CF3 as on CF0 and i honestly barely recognize my playlist. There's much more depth, the timbre is much improved and there's a sense of higher resolution.
    I'm still shocked there's such a difference between optical cables when the popular opinion is "they all sound the same ".  I don't know if Kabeldirekt or other "cheap" usb cables are closer to the QED or the dumpster fire of the Sonorous i was using, but it kinda makes me also want to try a better power cable.
   I'm sure this will fix the weird veil on the m-scaler, but i'm still left with the brighter sound that i'm not sure how much the ferrites and lpsu's can compensate for.
 With this new cable Dave sounds even darker though so maybe a bit of brightness wouldn't be the end of the world. 
   I guess i'll see tomorrow.


----------



## JaZZ

Dont forget that you're not bound to your headphone's factory setting! (In case it's still too bright.)


----------



## audio_1 (Oct 22, 2020)

adrianm said:


> I agree, but now that i've heard this cable, i can't unhear it. And i'm kinda calling bs on Dave's jitter immunity. Bent or not, the old one never made DAVE sound like this.
> So i'm more curious what effect would reducing jitter  further  would have, and i think the best way to do that is starting at the source. And it does resonate with what others  have been saying about usb reclocking and etc.
> I'm still skeptical but i have to hear it for myself.


IMHO the most important thing with optical connections to Dave is that they fit tightly and click into place. Dave's housing and recessed optical inputs prevent this with optical cables with large connectors. Did your original optical cable fit correctly? It should be hard to disconnect? Perhaps high signal attenuation is the issue not jitter. Rob Watts doesn't do bs. I had problems with a van den hul optocoupler optical cable. The optical fibre must have failed as it didn't work at all, even though it transmitted the red light.


----------



## adrianm

JaZZ said:


> Dont forget that you're not bound to your headphone's factory setting! (In case it's still too bright.)


Well the Z1R is far from bright, but i guess i just prefer a darker sound signature. I haven't tried eq'ing my headphones yet, that's a whole other can of worms i'm not sure i'm ready to open.


----------



## adrianm

audio_1 said:


> IMHO the most important thing with optical connections to Dave is that they fit tightly and click into place. Dave's housing and recessed optical inputs prevent this with optical cables with large connectors. Did your original optical cable fit correctly. It should be hard to disconnect? I don't think Rob Watts does bs. I had problems with a van den hul optocoupler optical cable. The optical fibre must have failed as it didn't work at all, even though it transmitted the red light. Perhaps high attentuation is the issue?


No the old one wouldn't click in Dave(thought it would go in deeper) or the m-scaler, it didn't even lock into the m-scaler, one nudge and it would fall off. It doesn't really click securely into anything , not like the new one.


----------



## audio_1

Has any one tried the Supra Optical cable? It is suppose to transmit high band width, guaranteed for 32 bit/384 kHz. Up to 20 metre cables are available. I'm not sure if the Supra connectors will fit the Dave though?


----------



## audio_1

adrianm said:


> No the old one wouldn't click in Dave(thought it would go in deeper) or the m-scaler, it didn't even lock into the m-scaler, one nudge and it would fall off. It doesn't really click securely into anything , not like the new one.


That was the problem, attenuation and focus on the optical receiver, not jitter. I have no idea why Chord fit recessed optical connectors. I experienced this problem on a Chord QBD 76 DAC years ago.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

dstubked said:


> Is it me or they screwed the manual up? https://chordelectronics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Dave-User-manual.pdf
> 
> I followed the manual and I believe they miswrote the position of the left and right xlr connector. The Dave sounded really bad I was regretting my purchase 2 days into the Dave before I swapped my xlr cables connector around and got relieved!


Yes the XLR connections shown in the Chord User Manual (photo in section 3.4, page 14) is incorrect.  All Chord Choral products that have XLR balanced or RCA single connections have the red / right channel on the RHS of the unit as you look down at the unit with the units front facing towards you.    I did the same thing when I first connected it up and it didn't sound good.  So I guessed the manual was wrong and changed them over.....and then wow...great sound !


----------



## adrianm

audio_1 said:


> That was the problem, attenuation and focus on the optical receiver, not jitter. I have no idea why Chord fit recessed optical connectors. I experienced this problem on a Chord QBD 76 DAC years ago.


Thanks, i thought i was going crazy. At least this makes sense. It's weird how it sounded "almost" right with Dave though, worse with the m-scaler, but the fit was also worse. 
 At least it looks pretty, i'm not sure if it's worth the hassle of looking for another one that will fit properly.


----------



## adrianm

audio_1 said:


> I have no idea why Chord fit recessed optical connectors


To be fair it did snap into place in my old Sony dac.


----------



## dstubked

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> Yes the XLR connections shown in the Chord User Manual (photo in section 3.4, page 14) is incorrect.  All Chord Choral products that have XLR balanced or RCA single connections have the red / right channel on the RHS of the unit as you look down at the unit with the units front facing towards you.    I did the same thing when I first connected it up and it didn't sound good.  So I guessed the manual was wrong and changed them over.....and then wow...great sound !



How could they make sure a mistake with such a expensive product.......


----------



## jlbrach

dstubked said:


> Is it me or they screwed the manual up? https://chordelectronics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Dave-User-manual.pdf
> 
> I followed the manual and I believe they miswrote the position of the left and right xlr connector. The Dave sounded really bad I was regretting my purchase 2 days into the Dave before I swapped my xlr cables connector around and got relieved!


I encountered the same problem...the written paper manual is correct


----------



## MatW

jlbrach said:


> I encountered the same problem...the written paper manual is correct


And the incorrect version is still on the Chord website...


----------



## Triode User

But many of us are male, right? So we don’t read manuals!


----------



## ubs28

To be honest, I never read the manual. Only when I cannot figure stuff out I grap the manual. But that usually never happens.


----------



## dstubked

I'm an engineer by training and I was taught to either RTFM or GTFW before asking. Thanks for confirming this everyone.


----------



## ubs28

The way I see it, if you need a manual, usually the product did something wrong as with common sense it should be pretty straight forward.

For example, I got this electric vehicle and you can customise alot of things with it, including how it accelerates. But in the menu each of the parameters are listed as stupid "codes" which makes no sense and it is impossible with common sense to know what the parameter stands for. So I needed to grab the manual because the manufacturer did not label the parameters with real proper names.


----------



## dstubked

I cannot agree more. Not a single label to annotate each of the ports behind. I honestly don't know the reason.


----------



## adrianm

dstubked said:


> I cannot agree more. Not a single label to annotate each of the ports behind. I honestly don't know the reason.


Mine has them etched


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

adrianm said:


> Mine has them etched


It's interesting why some were etched / inscribed for the type of connection and some were not.   I thought the later manufactured DAVE's were etched / inscribed.   
However my 2019 manufactured unit is not etched / inscribed !  My other Chord Choral units are also not etched, so for me not a big deal as used to it and with using their manuals no issue getting it wrong.


----------



## adrianm

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> It's interesting why some were etched / inscribed for the type of connection and some were not.   I thought the later manufactured DAVE's were etched / inscribed.
> However my 2019 manufactured unit is not etched / inscribed !  My other Chord Choral units are also not etched, so for me not a big deal as used to it and with using their manuals no issue getting it wrong.


Mine is August 2020,not sure when they started doing it


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

adrianm said:


> Mine is August 2020,not sure when they started doing it


I thought it was in 2018 but my guess can't be right if mine is 2019.  

Chord also changed the glass cover from slightly domed to flat and the Remote Controller from the larger multiple functions / multiple buttons version to a smaller and simpler version.


----------



## adrianm

Well it was the optical cable, it sounds good now. The lpsu still needs to burn in, i came from my dealer like i robbed the place. Small part of the stuff :


----------



## adrianm

Well it definitely sounds better than the stock bnc's through these, passthrough or upsampling, there's a bit less harshness :
https://www.analogueseduction.net/d...dard-diamond-75-ohm-digital-interconnect.html
Shocker, i know.
   There's still a considerably darker background on solo Dave, and i still find the m-scaler fatiguing, even in passthrough, but these do improve remove some harshness from the sound. 
Sorry, Nick, didn't have time to ask you for a pair to compare, was a spur of the moment thing.


----------



## musickid (Oct 23, 2020)

Initial impressions of my new silver dave are excellent. Especially with clarity of vocals and the controlled and deep bass coming out of my oppo planar magnetic 1's which is really fantastic with a nice elegant deep but controlled rumble. The slow relaxed neutralisation of tension in tracks is there just like the mscaler but adding the mscaler to dave will only bring out those stellar qualities even more. More detailed update to follow soon with pics although photography is not my thing.

Comparisons against mTT2 and projected qualities that i expect mDave to possess are due a write up very soon too. Running 7th gen. ipod touch roon endpoint usb (battery powered) into dave. Imac roon core. Optical out of imac direct to dave is a touch darker than usb and slightly less "energetic" but ever so slight. The difference between chord hugo collection and choral range is immediately obvious in terms of the detailed metalwork found on dave.


----------



## adrianm

musickid said:


> Initial impressions of my new silver dave are excellent. Especially with clarity of vocals and the controlled and deep bass coming out of my oppo planar magnetic 1's which is really fantastic with a nice elegant deep but controlled rumble. The slow relaxed neutralisation of tension in tracks is there just like the mscaler but adding the mscaler to dave will only bring out those stellar qualities even more. More detailed update to follow soon with pics although photography is not my thing.
> 
> Comparisons against mTT2 and projected qualities that i expect mDave to possess are due a write up very soon too. Running 7th gen. ipod touch roon endpoint usb (battery powered) into dave. Imac roon core. Optical out of imac direct to dave is a touch darker than usb and slightly less "energetic" but ever so slight. The difference between chord hugo collection and choral range is immediately obvious in terms of the detailed metalwork found on dave.


Congratulations, i know you've wanted one for a while. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you that the black one does indeed sound and look better 
   Can you share a few tracks you're using to test the m-scaler? I'm testing it now as well, and while this time around impressions are much better i still find that the differences are very small with most of my playlist. With the Utopias and HE1000se as well.
   When there is more info to dig up it is more noticeable but it feels like it needs a couple of million taps more


----------



## musickid (Oct 23, 2020)

hello there,

I just traded in my mTT2 for the dave. I'm using what i know of the hms combined with tt2 to try and imagine what a mDave will sound like. The solo dave is far exceeding my predictions and i'm extremely impressed so far with no regrets and the feeling of having entered the hi end world. Next year i'll add the mscaler and new headphones but for now the pm1 dave combo is so rich and textured i have plenty to keep me busy. I really love the screen being lit up in my dark room. What i can tell you for sure is that the mTT2 cannot reproduce the human voice and nor can it present bass in the sophisticated manner that the dave can.That is arguably subjective on both counts.The mscaler alongside any of the chord dacs has other qualities when combined that a solo dave does not and i will share a little on this soon. Think authenticity and pure musical energy.


----------



## adrianm

musickid said:


> The mscaler alongside any of the chord dacs has other qualities when combined that a solo dave does not and i will share a little on this soon.


I am curious since i'm auditioning it for the second time and while i do like it, i could easily live without it. I definitely don't agree with people saying it sounds like real music vs a good reproduction. I found that with Dave vs Mtt2, with mDave it's definitely just icing on the cake as Rob said.
   It is impressive when there's more info to dig up. There is more texture on a select few songs in my playlist, but i've only found it to make a moderate (as opposed to small) difference on 4-5 songs of the 30+ i've tested it with. Granted, that's not the m-scaler's fault, and at least this time around there are no drawbacks, but i'm still looking for tracks where it will blow me away. 
    The extra air is cool, it's easier to tell the size of the room, there's a bit better decay and sometimes texture, but it does come with the cost of a less "black" background and bass is a bit more diffuse than solo Dave.


----------



## Triode User

musickid said:


> The solo dave is far exceeding my predictions



I’m pretty I said all along that you would love solo Dave. Glad you are enjoying it.


----------



## ubs28 (Oct 24, 2020)

adrianm said:


> Well it was the optical cable, it sounds good now. The lpsu still needs to burn in, i came from my dealer like i robbed the place. Small part of the stuff :



Good choice of colour to counter the brightness of the Mscaler. The background sounds also extra black.


----------



## Hooster

musickid said:


> Initial impressions of my new silver dave are excellent. Especially with clarity of vocals and the controlled and deep bass coming out of my oppo planar magnetic 1's which is really fantastic with a nice elegant deep but controlled rumble. *The slow relaxed neutralisation of tension in tracks is there* just like the mscaler but adding the mscaler to dave will only bring out those stellar qualities even more. More detailed update to follow soon with pics although photography is not my thing.
> 
> Comparisons against mTT2 and projected qualities that i expect mDave to possess are due a write up very soon too. Running 7th gen. ipod touch roon endpoint usb (battery powered) into dave. Imac roon core. Optical out of imac direct to dave is a touch darker than usb and slightly less "energetic" but ever so slight. *The difference between chord hugo collection and choral range is immediately obvious in terms of the detailed metalwork found on dave.*



Outstanding, very much looking forward to your detailed update. I really enjoy your descriptions and being a part of your journey. The metalwork is nice and the matching stand is really cool. Enjoy!


----------



## adrianm

Hooster said:


> The metalwork is nice and the matching stand is really cool.


I agree but the stand does feel a bit underwhelming for its price.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> I agree but the stand does feel a bit underwhelming for its price.



Agreed and I'm afraid I would never buy the stand. It is pointless bling.


----------



## adrianm

I was going to test the Lpsu and the Naim streamer, but my upstairs neighbor decided it's a good time for a renovation and drilling holes. This is why i don't do open backs


----------



## adrianm

I know some people like the Farad Super 3, but i have to say i agree with Rob was about lpsus being a downgrade, it might sound a little bit smoother but there is definitely noticeable degradation of depth. And i'm using it with a 2k power cable out of my mains filter.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> I know some people like the Farad Super 3, but i have to say i agree with Rob was about lpsus being a downgrade, it might sound a little bit smoother but there is definitely noticeable degradation of depth. And i'm using it with a 2k power cable out of my mains filter.



But find and read all that RW says about how to judge what is better or worse when assessing a purely digital device such as the mscaler. When judging power supplies with the msclarer smoother implies less RF noise, descriptions such as 'more depth' or similar imply more RF noise. Have you tried the Mscaler with a 12v battery (poweradd or similar) because that will give you a standard to judge other power supplies and experiments against.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> But find and read all that RW says about how to judge what is better or worse when assessing a purely digital device such as the mscaler. When judging power supplies with the msclarer smoother implies less RF noise, descriptions such as 'more depth' or similar imply more RF noise. Have you tried the Mscaler with a 12v battery (poweradd or similar) because that will give you a standard to judge other power supplies and experiments against.


Well there is a bit less harshness with the Super 3, but i feel like the soundstage was more three dimensional with the standard one on some tracks. It's only noticeable on live stuff though, and even there it's hard to tell. This is all in crazy nitpicking territory . I am curious if it is more noticeable on speaker systems.


----------



## adrianm

The perceived smoothness is a bit of a toss so could just be placebo. But there's definitely more depth with the stock psu than the Farad to my ears.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> Well there is a bit less harshness with the Super 3, but i feel like the soundstage was more three dimensional with the standard one on some tracks. It's only noticeable on live stuff though, and even there it's hard to tell. This is all in crazy nitpicking territory . I am curious if it is more noticeable on speaker systems.



Again, 'more depth', 'more dimensional soundstage',  bigger soundstage' or 'more three dimsensional' are normally indicators of more RF noise artefacts. I find if one finds a track that is quite top heavy and play it quite loud it will pretty quickly be apparent which alternative is harsher /  more fatiguing when using the same volume.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> Again, 'more depth', 'more dimensional soundstage',  bigger soundstage' or 'more three dimsensional' are normally indicators of more RF noise artefacts. I find if one finds a track that is quite top heavy and play it quite loud it will pretty quickly be apparent which alternative is harsher /  more fatiguing when using the same volume.


Well with solo Dave Optical sounds like it has more depth than usb, so how can that be the case? Why would less depth be better? what's the point of the m-scaler in that case, that's really the main benefits i'm noticing, depth and a bit more width overs solo Dave. The timbre and texture improvements are only there like 1% of the time, but i can easily chalk that up to the recordings. I usually listen at pretty low volumes but i'll give it a go.


----------



## Triode User

The trouble is of course that we all have to try to use words to describe what we are hearing. Depth might mean one thing to you and something completely different to me. I have found the only reliable way is to hear it with someone else and then you can compare notes about what you have both heard.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> The trouble is of course that we all have to try to use words to describe what we are hearing. Depth might mean one thing to you and something completely different to me. I have found the only reliable way is to hear it with someone else and then you can compare notes about what you have both heard.


Well to me it means..distance from the microphone basically. Using a song i've used to test my mains filter, Rose Tattoo by Dropkick Murphys, the stock psu is considerably less harsh than the Farad, though the lpsu does  seem to accentuate some details and seem more transparent, it is a lot more fatiguing at a higher volume.
   That sounds like the fake transparency induced by Rf, but even if it isn't , i could hardly get through the whole song with it turned up, whereas with the stock psu i have no trouble. So i'm definitely closing the book on lpsu's.
    Time to test the streamer.


----------



## adrianm

No offense but if i get why people with lpsus feel the need to ferrite their cables.


----------



## Mircea C.

audio_1 said:


> Has any one tried the Supra Optical cable? It is suppose to transmit high band width, guaranteed for 32 bit/384 kHz. Up to 20 metre cables are available. I'm not sure if the Supra connectors will fit the Dave though?


I am using Supra Cable and I think is an excellent cable (same for their USB cable), however I am using it into MScaler without any issues up to and including 192 Khz. I just tested on the Dave before posting this and on my Dave and is working only up to 96Khz  It looks like the optical ports on various Chord products behave differently (it has been reported before that Mojo, Hugo are less sensitive than Dave).The cables fits and clicks on both Dave and Mscaler. I'm getting 192Khz with the Supra into Hugo 2 as well.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> Well to me it means..distance from the microphone basically. Using a song i've used to test my mains filter, Rose Tattoo by Dropkick Murphys, the stock psu is considerably less harsh than the Farad, though the lpsu does  seem to accentuate some details and seem more transparent, it is a lot more fatiguing at a higher volume.
> That sounds like the fake transparency induced by Rf, but even if it isn't , i could hardly get through the whole song with it turned up, whereas with the stock psu i have no trouble. So i'm definitely closing the book on lpsu's.
> Time to test the streamer.



By the way, I wasn’t arguing against your thoughts. I also tried the Farad with the mscaler and likewise also did not like the pairing at all. I found it overly bright, not at all smooth and quite fatiguing (this was in contrast to using one with the Qutest where I really liked the Farad). But do not write off all lpsu as being tarred with the same brush. The lpsu I am using is like chalk and cheese compared to the Farad / mscaler pairing. I even find it better than a poweradd battery.


----------



## adrianm

Mircea C. said:


> I am using Supra Cable and I think is an excellent cable (same for their USB cable), however I am using it into MScaler without any issues up to and including 192 Khz. I just tested on the Dave before posting this and on my Dave and is working only up to 96Khz  It looks like the optical ports on various Chord products behave differently (it has been reported before that Mojo, Hugo are less sensitive than Dave).The cables fits and clicks on both Dave and Mscaler. I'm getting 192Khz with the Supra into Hugo 2 as well.


Now that you mention it, my Qed optical cable also has no problem playing 24/196 to the m-scaler, just tested it. It seems Dave is the problem.


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## adrianm

Triode User said:


> By the way, I wasn’t arguing against your thoughts. I also tried the Farad with the mscaler and likewise also did not like the pairing at all. I found it overly bright, not at all smooth and quite fatiguing (this was in contrast to using one with the Qutest where I really liked the Farad). But do not write off all lpsu as being tarred with the same brush. The lpsu I am using is like chalk and cheese compared to the Farad / mscaler pairing. I even find it better than a poweradd battery.


It's honestly not worth the hassle to me, the m-scaler is growing on me, but it's such a small improvement that it's not worth investing the time to test everything under the sun to improve it even further.
    This has renewed my faith in Chord though, last week with that optical cable it sounded like a mess. I'm also going to A/B this optical cable against the stock Dave one just in case someone's interested if there's a difference.


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## Progisus

I’ve found the Chord supplied optical and usb cables have worked as expected and will give 192 and 768 respectively on all my dacs. The bnc’s were rubbish.


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## adrianm

If anyone else really doesn't want/need Roon :
https://www.whathifi.com/news/first-tidal-connect-enabled-products-confirmed-bluos-kef-naim-and-more


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## Paul Bjernklo (Oct 24, 2020)

Triode User said:


> Again, 'more depth', 'more dimensional soundstage',  bigger soundstage' or 'more three dimsensional' are normally indicators of more RF noise artefacts. I find if one finds a track that is quite top heavy and play it quite loud it will pretty quickly be apparent which alternative is harsher /  more fatiguing when using the same volume.



Maybe I am mistaken but Rob W in my mind has always said that more depth (which is better) is a sign of less RFI, but wider soundstage the opposite and suggests more RFI.

I may be wrong but post 11230 on the Dave thread (and many others) suggest otherwise. Happy to learn though so do please chime in with your thoughts;

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-749#post-14245642

Edit: And as per a previous post that may be why Optical cable sound better than USB in that system


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## adrianm

Paul Bjernklo said:


> Maybe I am mistaken but Rob W in my mind has always said that more depth is a sign of less RFI, but wider soundstage the opposite.
> 
> II may be wrong but post 11230 on the Dave thread (and many others) suggest otherwise. Happy to learn though so do please chime in with your thoughts;
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-749#post-14245642


That's what i remembered as well, but even if not, the Farad is clearly more fatiguing. That said i think people said at one point that the m-scaler psu injects noise back into the mains, maybe the fact that they're both plugged into the mains filter helps, not sure. 
   Either way the stock is clearly better and less fatiguing to my ears. As is optical vs usb.


----------



## Paul Bjernklo

adrianm said:


> That's what i remembered as well, but even if not, the Farad is clearly more fatiguing. That said i think people said at one point that the m-scaler psu injects noise back into the mains, maybe the fact that they're both plugged into the mains filter helps, not sure.
> Either way the stock is clearly better and less fatiguing to my ears. As is optical vs usb.



I have lost track of the QED optical cable you are using but if it is the Reference optical quartz that should be among the best, if not why not try an often recommended Kabeldirekt optical from Amazon (very cheap) as based on my testing with other much more expensive optical cables I think it is worth to try as I can hear a significant improvement over stock optical cables. 

You may refer to USB or BNC cables though where I don’t have much advise to give I am afraid....


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## adrianm

Paul Bjernklo said:


> I have lost track of the QED optical cable you are using but if it is the Reference optical quartz that should be among the best, if not why not try an often recommended Kabeldirekt optical from Amazon (very cheap) as based on my testing with other much more expensive optical cables I think it is worth to try as I can hear a significant improvement over stock optical cables.
> 
> You may refer to USB or BNC cables though where I don’t have much advise to give I am afraid....


Yeah that's the one, it's a huge improvement from my old 10$ sonorous.That one didn't fit at all in the m-scaler, though it did click into Dave, but i just realized after i got this one how bad it sounded. Even though it was comparable (better in some ways ) to usb. So not sure what to think yet.
   Haven't had time to test it today vs a decent fitting cable (stock one, which is too short and i have to move stuff around) but i definitely will, out of curiosity.


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## adrianm (Oct 24, 2020)

I'm having some trouble streaming from the Naim to Dave, it only has bnc out but i'm not getting signal in any of Dave's Bnc's, does anyone have any idea?
 Edit : nvm, found it.


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## adrianm (Oct 24, 2020)

Does anyone know why streamers shy away from Optical ? Is it just the bandwidth limitation or the fact that most dac are more sensitive to jitter?
This Naim sounds almost as good as optical out of pc, it would be hard to pick in a blind test, but i'd still give the slight edge to optical out of pc, which is pretty impressive tbh. It's a lot better than the Macbook pro with usb and jitterbug.


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## ecwl

adrianm said:


> Does anyone know why streamers shy away from Optical ? Is it just the bandwidth limitation or the fact that most dac are more sensitive to jitter?


It’s because most DACs are more sensitive to jitter by their very design, be they R2R or DSD or multi-element DAC chips. The pulse array DAC design in Chord DACs is particularly jitter immune and has no measureable noise floor modulation. Interestingly, I noticed recently the Mola Mola DAC design uses a very similar DAC architecture (although the upsampling is very different).


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## edwardsean (Oct 24, 2020)

ecwl said:


> It’s because most DACs are more sensitive to jitter by their very design, be they R2R or DSD or multi-element DAC chips. The pulse array DAC design in Chord DACs is particularly jitter immune and has no measureable noise floor modulation. Interestingly, I noticed recently the Mola Mola DAC design uses a very similar DAC architecture (although the upsampling is very different).



You would really need someone from the industry to speak knowledgeably to that. However, I'm willing to hazard a guess from a different standpoint. This is purely from conversations with industry folk, and looking out at the field. It looks like USB is winning the connectivity war.

This might be due to what ecwl wrote. This might also be due to its bandwidth capability as users experiment with hi-res. For me, this is a non-negotiable. However, I think the bigger reason may move in the opposite direction. There is a small, but growing, clutch of audiophiles pushing past 96KHz/192KHz, but I think it has more to do with the ubiquity of USB.

USB, originally designed for printers and peripherals, is a horrible audio interface. I wish I2S would overtake the audio world, but that's not going to happen. USB has market dominance and so it keeps getting better, and as it gets better it keeps solidifying its place. For instance, Macs don't have the larger market share, but they are incredibly market savvy. They used to have optical audio in/out, along with other ports, but went all in on USB-C. (Just an aside, anyone even remember firewire. It used to be all the rage in the recording world.)

Both, optical and USB have their relative technical merits and challenges. Builders have to decide where to invest their design dollars and people just seem to be thinking USB these days. But, I don't know, this is just fun spectator speculation on my part.


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## adrianm (Oct 24, 2020)

ecwl said:


> It’s because most DACs are more sensitive to jitter by their very design, be they R2R or DSD or multi-element DAC chips. The pulse array DAC design in Chord DACs is particularly jitter immune and has no measureable noise floor modulation. Interestingly, I noticed recently the Mola Mola DAC design uses a very similar DAC architecture (although the upsampling is very different).


Thanks, thought so. Looks like Dave is just a gem that keeps on giving. I have like 15k worth of gear on my desk (borrowed ofc) and i could just just take away 75% of that and it would sound 85-90% as good on most of my tracks.
    That said i'm still seriously considering the m-scaler, i just hope that rf issue can be solved by ferrites. It's not the added brightness that bothers me, it sounds fine, i just find it slightly more fatiguing than solo Dave over long periods. With Optical that is, usb would honestly be kind of a deal breaker for me.


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## musickid (Oct 25, 2020)

A few snapshots of my new dave, oppo pm1 headphone with silver artisan cable and ipod touch 7th generation roon endpoint battery powered by an energizer powerbank.


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## musickid (Oct 25, 2020)

Dave continues to impress and surprise me in the most positive way 3 days into ownership. Elegant and sophisticated and oozing a sweet and naturally organic sound leaving one no longer searching for any more highs. Mojo is warm and organic but a bit thin and rather 2D sounding by comparison. Hugo 2 is beautifully detailed but a touch cold. TT2 is so smooth and natural and effortlessly powerful but a touch heavy in tone for me. The negatives described here are not really negatives as i feel these dacs have been carefully tuned for the environment they will find themselves operating in whether that be mobile a mix of mobile and desktop or purely at home for the TT2. Dave seems to extract all of these positives with no negative traits that i can feel or detect. Perfection and absolutely spot on. It feels right in every regard and it is how this audio gear makes you feel at the end of the day which is ultimately more important than any technical jargon or the like. As it has been stated it is the emotional bond or attachment to the music which separates Chord from the competition and keeps us coming back for more and paying a premium to capture that magic. Dave is the embodiment of that magic enclosed within an aluminium case that weighs 5kg and costs the best part of a new fiesta.

The mscaler doesn't change the nature of any of the chord dacs and their fine tuning but rather adds a number of very important musical qualities that no dac on its own has the capability to reproduce. These include adding immense definition to the decay and leading edge of musical notes which is not to be confused with instrument separation which a solo dave excels in and cannot be matched i feel. There is some very slight blurring which i can detect even with dave surrounding certain vocal representations on albums i know well. The mscaler eliminates this due to the way it handles transients with a one million tap interpolation filter reproducing the analogue signal to a greater than 16 bit accuracy. I expect the mscaler will also clear this up when added to dave. The mscaler is very fast and brings with it greater accuracy than what a solo dave can do. Thinking back to the mTT2 this is easily discernible with electronic dance music. Even though i strongly feel the dave leads the way with instrument separation and this is evident relaxing with piano mscaler or no mscaler. I also found the mscaler had a greater effect on hugo 2 than with TT2. With hugo2 it was a complete transformation displaying the qualities just described here with the TT2 it was slightly more subtle.

However if i had to explain why i am more than willing to add a new mscaler to my dave when finances allow it comes down to one main factor: The mscaler adds a certain musical energy or musical "sparkle" to the music which is ineffable i.e. it is hard to describe in words. This was immediately apparent when i tested the TT2 solo unattached to the mscaler vs mTT2. Passthrough on mscaler is a bit deceiving as even passthrough added its own flavour. I also found TT2 and mTT2 to _occasionally_ sound a bit "heavy" or heavy in tone. With dave this heaviness has disappeared. I continue to enjoy adjusting to the sound of dave as i leave mTT2 behind.

I hope my honest and from the heart evaluation here helps put things into a clearer perspective and adds a bit of colour to this dull and overcast Sunday morning. Time for some Al Jarreau i think as i conclude my 2020 dave report which i promised to everyone......time to enjoy the music now i think....Cheers MK. Certainly headphone listeners paradise here with me now.



(These tracks were used to help me decide whether to go optical direct from my imac or use a 7th generation ipod touch (usb source) battery powered roon endpoint). The ipod touch usb source just won on sound quality and can also do 192khz files from Qobuz. The imac optical is capped at 96khz.

1) Al Jarreau: We're in this love together from the album Breakin' Away.
2) Alissa Weilerstein: Dvorak the album: cello concerto in B minor finale.
3) Gregory Porter: Everything you touch is Gold from the album All Rise (Deluxe).
4) Sonny Rollins: Way out West: There is no greater love.


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## adrianm

musickid said:


> The mscaler doesn't change the nature of any of the chord dacs and their fine tuning but rather adds a number of very important musical qualities that no dac on its own has the capability to reproduce. These include adding immense definition to the decay and leading edge of musical notes which is not to be confused with instrument separation which a solo dave excels in and cannot be matched i feel. There is some very slight blurring which i can detect even with dave surrounding certain vocal representations on albums i know well. The mscaler eliminates this due to the way it handles transients with a one million tap interpolation filter reproducing the analogue signal to a greater than 16 bit accuracy. I expect the mscaler will also clear this up when added to dave. The mscaler is very fast and brings with it greater accuracy than what a solo dave can do. Thinking back to the mTT2 this is easily discernible with electronic dance music. Even though i strongly feel the dave leads the way with instrument separation and this is evident relaxing with piano mscaler or no mscaler. I also found the mscaler had a greater effect on hugo 2 than with TT2. With hugo2 it was a complete transformation displaying the qualities just described here with the TT2 it was slightly more subtle.


I am curious as to what you will think when you do experience the m-scaler with Dave. It does indeed improve decay a bit on some tracks but i don't find it to be quite the revelation when added to Dave as it was to the TT2 from my short experience. I think the higher up you go in Chord's range the less impact it has, as it should, because Dave already has a lot more taps than either of them.
   That slight blurring you're hearing, i've heard too via usb +jitterbug out of a macbook pro. Even now via the Naim ND5 XS2 via a 1k bnc it's still there, though  less. Going optical (with a decent fitting cable) out of my "Noisy" gaming pc has greater clarity and depth.
    I suggest you a cheap solution like a Hifiberry with an optical out to compare and a mains filter (this is #1 on the Dave improvement list for me) and then reassessing .I find  my Isotek Sirius greatly improves Dave's bass definition and highs. And it's relatively affordable.
    To me, if Dave was an Iphone X, the m-scaler would make it a Xs, not an 11. Since there is already such a diminishing return i'm not sure more taps would improve it further considerably. 
    I do think that it might make more of a difference in speaker systems, because what i heard with my headphones was consistent across Utopias and He1000se as well.


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## musickid (Oct 25, 2020)

The mscaler with one million taps can be thought of as being 10 times more accurate than dave with its 164K taps. I expect improvements across the whole spectrum of musical qualities with hms. I'm using TT2 vs mTT2 as a reference here as this is all i have to go on.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

musickid said:


> Dave continues to impress and surprise me in the most positive way 3 days into ownership. Elegant and sophisticated and oozing a sweet and naturally organic sound leaving one no longer searching for any more highs. Mojo is warm and organic but a bit thin and rather 2D sounding by comparison. Hugo 2 is beautifully detailed but a touch cold. TT2 is so smooth and natural and effortlessly powerful but a touch heavy in tone for me. The negatives described here are not really negatives as i feel these dacs have been carefully tuned for the environment they will find themselves operating in whether that be mobile a mix of mobile and desktop or purely at home for the TT2. Dave seems to extract all of these positives with no negative traits that i can feel or detect. Perfection and absolutely spot on. It feels right in every regard and it is how this audio gear makes you feel at the end of the day which is ultimately more important than any technical jargon or the like. As it has been stated it is the emotional bond or attachment to the music which separates Chord from the competition and keeps us coming back for more and paying a premium to capture that magic. Dave is the embodiment of that magic enclosed within an aluminium case that weighs 5kg and costs the best part of a new fiesta.
> 
> The mscaler doesn't change the nature of any of the chord dacs and their fine tuning but rather adds a number of very important musical qualities that no dac on its own has the capability to reproduce. These include adding immense definition to the decay and leading edge of musical notes which is not to be confused with instrument separation which a solo dave excels in and cannot be matched i feel. There is some very slight blurring which i can detect even with dave surrounding certain vocal representations on albums i know well. The mscaler eliminates this due to the way it handles transients with a one million tap interpolation filter reproducing the analogue signal to a greater than 16 bit accuracy. I expect the mscaler will also clear this up when added to dave. The mscaler is very fast and brings with it greater accuracy than what a solo dave can do. Thinking back to the mTT2 this is easily discernible with electronic dance music. Even though i strongly feel the dave leads the way with instrument separation and this is evident relaxing with piano mscaler or no mscaler. I also found the mscaler had a greater effect on hugo 2 than with TT2. With hugo2 it was a complete transformation displaying the qualities just described here with the TT2 it was slightly more subtle.
> 
> ...


Yes, the musicality of Chord Electronic equipment came to my ears back in 2012 with the Chordette system.  Since then my hifi systems have grown to two Chord Choral speaker systems  (UK system has headphone capability with the DAVE) in two different countries.  That's how much I love Chord Electronics.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

adrianm said:


> I am curious as to what you will think when you do experience the m-scaler with Dave. It does indeed improve decay a bit on some tracks but i don't find it to be quite the revelation when added to Dave as it was to the TT2 from my short experience. I think the higher up you go in Chord's range the less impact it has, as it should, because Dave already has a lot more taps than either of them.
> That slight blurring you're hearing, i've heard too via usb +jitterbug out of a macbook pro. Even now via the Naim ND5 XS2 via a 1k bnc it's still there, though  less. Going optical (with a decent fitting cable) out of my "Noisy" gaming pc has greater clarity and depth.
> I suggest you a cheap solution like a Hifiberry with an optical out to compare and a mains filter (this is #1 on the Dave improvement list for me) and then reassessing .I find  my Isotek Sirius greatly improves Dave's bass definition and highs. And it's relatively affordable.
> To me, if Dave was an Iphone X, the m-scaler would make it a Xs, not an 11. Since there is already such a diminishing return i'm not sure more taps would improve it further considerably.
> I do think that it might make more of a difference in speaker systems, because what i heard with my headphones was consistent across Utopias and He1000se as well.


For my ears, the M Scaler with the Hugo 2 and DAVE has a bigger impact with my UK speaker system than with my Grado GS3000e's plugged direct into the Hugo 2 and DAVE (even though the GS3000e's are quite revealing).   That's possibly the reason why some folk that only use the M Scaler and DAVE may not feel the full benefit from just using these components for headphone listening !   The higher up the chain you go with higher revealing systems the more the M Scaler will shine !


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## musickid (Oct 25, 2020)

I feel the effect of the mscaler should be noticeable with ease even with standard headphones. The picture with the full chord rack is awesome though. The soundstage on my pm1's is noticeably wider, deeper and more atmospheric with dave. I assume that is down to the 20 vs 10 pulse arrays. Grado's are excellent i just wish the earpads were soft leather and not that friction inducing material.


----------



## ray-dude

musickid said:


> The mscaler with one million taps can be thought of as being 10 times more accurate than dave with its 164K taps. I expect improvements across the whole spectrum of musical qualities with hms. I'm using TT2 vs mTT2 as a reference here as this is all i have to go on.



Hard to make a direct mapping to "accuracy" but each doubling of taps gives an additional bit of ideality of the filter.

IIRC, the ideality of the filter (where sinc function is the ideal) is 12.2 bits Hugo 2, 13.9 bits Dave, and 16.6 bits M scaler.  That is, DAVE's filter is identical to an ideal sinc filter to 13.9 bits.  Basically, mScaler is 2.7 bits more ideal filter than DAVE.  DAVE is 1.7 bits more ideal filter than Hugo2. 

Comparing mDAVE vs mTT2 vs mHugo2, all have the same input signal (the same 16.6 bits of ideal filter), but I find DAVE hugely superior.  Signal accuracy is about more than taps, but taps goes a long way to getting the most sound quality you can get from the rest of the DAC.  Put another way, a near perfect digital reconstruction would purely reveal the accuracy and quality of the rest of the DAC.

Early on, I preferred mHugo2 to vanilla DAVE (no mScaler) but it fell well short of mDAVE (w/ mScaler).  Over time, I've come to prefer DAVE vs mTT2 or mHugo2.  What DAVE brings to the table, Hugo2 and TT2 just can't match, no matter how many taps you feed them with.  That being said, the ultimate is still lots of taps feeding DAVE.  Give DAVE the best signal and best power and best mechanical environment you can, and you will be astonished how much magic has been hiding in these recordings all along.


----------



## adrianm

musickid said:


> The mscaler with one million taps can be thought of as being 10 times more accurate than dave with its 164K taps. I expect improvements across the whole spectrum of musical qualities with hms. I'm using TT2 vs mTT2 as a reference here as this is all i have to go on.


Well after my second weekend of testing...i like it..but the stock bnc's are just horrendous. Improvements be damned, it's just fatiguing after long periods and less enjoyable i can easily live without the improvements, but not with the added fatigue. It just makes me want to listen less.
   With these ( most likely snake oil cables, but i haven't heard any others ) the sound is clearer and less fatiguing, and i could definitely see myself adding the m-scaler. There are improvements across the board and a bit less RF noise, but at the cost of...well...cost :
https://www.technologyfactory.eu/en...crystaldigit-standard-diamond/a-8652-10000592
  I'm probably going to audition other BNC cables if i do end up getting it but the fact that it needs an upgrade to be an upgrade (IMO) certainly leaves a bitter taste.


----------



## saudio7

Don’t buy expensive BNC cables, the key are ferrits, so just good quality BNC and around 20 or more ferrits.


----------



## alxw0w

Like @saudio7 said. Don't waste your time and money on different bnc cables as the effect will be minimal if any. 
Just buy cables with ferrites and unleash full potential of the m scaler.


----------



## TheAttorney

alxw0w said:


> Like @saudio7 said. Don't waste your time and money on different bnc cables as the effect will be minimal if any.
> Just buy cables with ferrites and unleash full potential of the m scaler.



Which BNC cables have you and saudio7 tried to come to this conclusion?
I would say it's the other way round: Multiple clip-on ferrites on the stock cable would give minimal improvements (I've tried), but a _carefully chosen _audiophile cable can give a substantial improvement - enough to change your views on what the HMS is capable of. Randomly chosen cables will give random results.


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## alxw0w (Oct 26, 2020)

I've tried DIY cables with ferrites: some belden with wurth ferrites - huge improvement over stock bnc.
I've tried wave storm reference - huge improvement over stock and even from DIY cables that I mentioned.
also I tried BNC from respected Polish manufacture (without ferrites), and improvement was there but nothing even close to cables with ferrites.

Main reason why you want to change stock chord cables is RFI attenuation. You have to stop RFI flow from M Scaler to the TT2 (oops actually it's Dave in this case  ).
I cannot see how cable without ferrites can do this -  definitely not to the necessary level.

ps. I'm sure @Triode User can throw some light on this topic.


----------



## TheAttorney

alxw0w said:


> I cannot see how cable without ferrites can do this -  definitely not to the necessary level.



Well, at least you tried a few different cables to come to your conclusion - better than many who make such claims.
But you found that the WAVE cable was better than your DIY ferrites, so therefore you are also saying that at least one audiophile cable was better than your DIY route.

The flaw with your last sentence is that you are using common sense to determine an outcome, whereas I long ago gave up common sense in trying to understand hi-end audio .

There's much more to hifi than RFI and there's much more to RFI than ferrites. In the past I've played around with multiple ferrites - and they do work up to a point. But they don't work as well as a carefully chosen audiophile cable, irrespective of whether that cable has ferrites or not. If you've tried a cable and it didn't work well, then it wasn't the right cable to try at this point in your journey.

The downside of this, apart from potentially high cost, is that the BNC cable is not the only thing to worry about. Everything else matters, so it's a long journey if you're a dedicated audiophile.

BTW, I've been playing around with 3M RFI/EMI absorbing sheets and have not come to a firm conclusion yet, but my experience so far suggests that RFI through cables and power cords is not the only thing to worry about


----------



## adrianm

alxw0w said:


> Main reason why you want to change stock chord cables is RFI attenuation. You have to stop RFI flow from M Scaler to the TT2 (oops actually it's Dave in this case  ).
> I cannot see how cable without ferrites can do this - definitely not to the necessary level.


I'm sure there are other ways to do it, either that or RF might not be the only issue. Those Crystal cables were "bright", but not harsh (just like my silver headphone cable). They had better clarity all around than the stock ones.


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## alxw0w

I'm not saying that RFI is the only problem, but definitely main/major problem.
So I don't see a point in looking for cables that don't solve main problem when talking about M Scaler TT2/Dave connection.
If somebody like sound of RFI - that's ok. For some users it may sound good - image is sharper more vivid it can be found as better resolution or can fix dark headphones/speakers. But it's artificial.

And on that I'm finishing my rambling about BNC cables - there were way too much posts regarding this topic lately. Good luck finding your audio nirvana.


----------



## adrianm

alxw0w said:


> I'm not saying that RFI is the only problem, but definitely main/major problem.
> So I don't see a point in looking for cables that don't solve main problem when talking about M Scaler TT2/Dave connection.
> If somebody like sound of RFI - that's ok. For some users it may sound good - image is sharper more vivid it can be found as better resolution or can fix dark headphones/speakers. But it's artificial.
> 
> And on that I'm finishing my rambling about BNC cables - there were way too much posts regarding this topic lately. Good luck finding your audio nirvana.


I do agree with you about the RFI, i'm just saying you should ferrite some cables that are better than the stock ones to begin with. Whatever that means, we're deep into snakeoil land without a map. Apparently trial and error is the only way to move forward.   
   What i'm not clear on is how a battery would completely remove the need for ferrited cables as i thought at least some of the RF comes from the m-scaler itself.


----------



## adrianm

I have to say going back to no m-scaler for the first time after 3 days i keep feeling the need to check settings and cables because Dave sounds off. Nothing to check though. It sounds a bit... harsher (but not rf harsh though) and more congested, as well as a bit less texture on some tracks. I was expecting the slight congestion but not the harshness. 
     I guess it's easier to notice the m-scaler's  effects with it gone.


----------



## Amberlamps

I want a dave, but I want one that can power high end headphones now, and in the future. 

Like what TT2 can. 

Is dave bad at driving uber high end headphones like susvara and abyss's line up, or is it just a myth ?


----------



## adrianm

Amberlamps said:


> I want a dave, but I want one that can power high end headphones now, and in the future.
> 
> Like what TT2 can.
> 
> Is dave bad at driving uber high end headphones like susvara and abyss's line up, or is it just a myth ?


I personally think it’s way overblown based on past experiences but i can’t say i’ve heard it myself. That said the Aryas did sound kind of dead to me on Dave, but i don’t think the amping was to blame. Utopias sounded amazing and so did he1000’s


----------



## Ciggavelli

Amberlamps said:


> I want a dave, but I want one that can power high end headphones now, and in the future.
> 
> Like what TT2 can.
> 
> Is dave bad at driving uber high end headphones like susvara and abyss's line up, or is it just a myth ?


It's not a myth.  The DAVE is bad at driving the Susvara and TCs (I have both)


----------



## saudio7

TheAttorney said:


> Which BNC cables have you and saudio7 tried to come to this conclusion?
> I would say it's the other way round: Multiple clip-on ferrites on the stock cable would give minimal improvements (I've tried), but a _carefully chosen _audiophile cable can give a substantial improvement - enough to change your views on what the HMS is capable of. Randomly chosen cables will give random results.


Yes, similar to @alxw0w I tried myself, but not on BNC provided by Chord, just good quality BNC you could say basic hi-fi not audiophile for few k$ and it was big improvement, bigger then USB cleaning stuff. Finally I ended with Wave thanks to @Triode User as they are dedicated to this setup, yes they are expensive, but provide even bigger improvement. 
I think your suggestion to try audiophile cables can bring very big random results, bigger then good quality BNC. I know you put "carefully chosen" then the question is by who? Sorry sounds like to much marketing for me?


----------



## Amberlamps

Ciggavelli said:


> It's not a myth.  The DAVE is bad at driving the Susvara and TCs (I have both)



Thats whats putting me off of getting one, as I'm solely a headphone user.  If a Dave with TT2's power was released, I would bite.


----------



## Triode User

Amberlamps said:


> Thats whats putting me off of getting one, as I'm solely a headphone user.  If a Dave with TT2's power was released, I would bite.



Is one of the awaited integrated digital amps with a headphone outlet what Sir seeks? That when connected to MScaler maybe obviates the need for a higher power Dave. But my crystal ball might be malfunctioning.


----------



## adrianm

Amberlamps said:


> Thats whats putting me off of getting one, as I'm solely a headphone user.  If a Dave with TT2's power was released, I would bite.


The question is are you a Susvara/Abyss user?  I'm also a headphone user but i wouldn't get any of them.


----------



## Amberlamps

adrianm said:


> The question is are you a Susvara/Abyss user?  I'm also a headphone user but i wouldn't get any of them.



Not as of yet, but I'm positive that I will buy more high end headphones in the future, as I'm getting sick of replacing my hd800s cable every six months.


----------



## Amberlamps

Triode User said:


> Is one of the awaited integrated digital amps with a headphone outlet what Sir seeks? That when connected to MScaler maybe obviates the need for a higher power Dave. But my crystal ball might be malfunctioning.



It is possible, after all it is mentioned in the mscalers manual, "for future products", but I wouldn't hold my breath for it. I suspect it's like davina, a mythical creature that is widely spoken about, but yet nobody has seen one, except rob and purple aki.


----------



## adrianm

Does anyone know if Dave's jitter immunity also extends to the m-scaler?


----------



## adrianm

Amberlamps said:


> Not as of yet, but I'm positive that I will buy more high end headphones in the future, as I'm getting sick of replacing my hd800s cable every six months.


 Sounds like a case of upgraditis  Weren't you saying you're selling everything and buying gold at one point?


----------



## lovethatsound

Amberlamps said:


> Not as of yet, but I'm positive that I will buy more high end headphones in the future, as I'm getting sick of replacing my hd800s cable every six months.


Just get the focal utopia,it's brilliant with the Dave. I've got the hd800 as well,but to be honest I never use them now.


----------



## adrianm

lovethatsound said:


> Just get the focal utopia,it's brilliant with the Dave. I've got the hd800 as well,but to be honest I never use them now.


The Utopia is something special indeed. Reminded me of my Z1R, but not as thick and a bit faster, with a slightly smaller soundstage. I would definitely get a pair if i could use open backs.
  The HE1000se was faster and the imaging was in another class but the tonality was pretty dry, i couldn't live with them.


----------



## Amberlamps

adrianm said:


> Sounds like a case of upgraditis  Weren't you saying you're selling everything and buying gold at one point?



I can't remember ? 

But with the way the world is going, paper money will soon be useless, but bling will always be a form of currency.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Amberlamps said:


> I want a dave, but I want one that can power high end headphones now, and in the future.
> 
> Like what TT2 can.
> 
> Is dave bad at driving uber high end headphones like susvara and abyss's line up, or is it just a myth ?



I have both the Susvaras and the TC's and it's definitely not a myth. However, I haven't used them directly out of the Dave since the first week of owning it. I'll try to revisit tonight and share some thoughts.


----------



## jlbrach

susvara cannot be used out of the dave, abyss tc can and some enjoy but they are dramatically better with an amp added


----------



## Progisus

Always something... mscaler and megabuck cables, dave and amp for totl phones. I‘m just lucky the TT and TT2 seem to be well thought out. Oops... the 3.5mm jack sucks.


----------



## adrianm

Unless you've heard and specifically love those headphones i'm not sure why they're a priority for you. There's always a new flavor of the month. A lot of new reviews put the Final Audio D8k Pro at least at the same level and those are easy to drive for example. Doesn't matter if they don't do it for u though. I'm thinking of giving them a try when i do go with open backs. 
   If you're really bent on them you can just get a dedicated amp and be done with it.


----------



## dstubked

I'm also here to vouch for comments by the others, Susvara requires much more power than what the Dave can outputs. If you are planning to use the Susvara out directly from Dave, honest advice..forget it!


----------



## adrianm

This is interesting for a future Dave :
https://www.wsj.com/articles/amd-agrees-to-buy-rival-chip-maker-xilinx-for-35-billion-11603794663


----------



## Christer (Oct 27, 2020)

I  really hope that the new amps Rob is apparently working on currently will be the solution to Dave's  real Achilles Heel especially when used with the Mscaler and several of the difficult to drive  highend headphones mentioned earlier in this thread.
And if I understand things correctly there won't even be any need for a Dave if one already owns an Mscaler?

Dave/HMS directly clipping with large scale orchestral  non compressed  classical music with  both Susvara and Utopia and even HEKV2 in my experience  is NOT nice to hear and apart from the very high price asked imho one of  the main reasons I have personally, not bought a Dave.
I chose to compromise a bit on ultimate transparency in  comparison to DAVE /HMS but I am very happy with the Mscaler, the advantage of it is so  immmediately  obvious to me over no Mscaler and with  all Chord dacs I auditioned it with that I just can't think of using any Chord dac including DAVE, without it.
For me the Mscaler is absolutely THE most important link in the currently available Chord digital products chain.
Dave was and in most respects still is an amazing product but it also needs Mscaling to really shine imho.
With  the Mscaler Dave  can deliver really  SOTA territory, digital reproduction but not without it imho.
But for those only listening via headphones who knows? Maybe the recently announced T+A HA200 headphone amp dac combo which not only just as Dave/HMS upscales ALL  pcm formats  to 768khz!!!! but also plays NATIVE DSD up to DSD 1024 with  windows.
Could it  be the challenge to Dave alone many have been waiting for from the competition?
I prefer to let my ears be the ultimate judge of SQ but it seems HIFI News where mightily impressed with the T+A HA200 in combination both with T+A's own   headphone and also  said that they had never heard the Oppo PM1 sound better than via the HA200!
The HA200 retails from  around 6k€,which is about half price of Dave and can allegedly  comfortably drive ANY headphone on the market except electrostatics and possibly the SRH1A ?
For  basically the same price as a Dave one could buy both a HA200 AND T+A's planar headphone which apparently compares  quite favourably with the Utopia according to some listeners.
PS. I hope I haven't upset too many of you.  I just felt like  stirring the pot here a bit again it's been a while.

Personally I am frankly still very happy with my humble Qutest/HMS combo with Wave Storm BNCs and via my  big electrostatic speakers I had an almost eargasmic, very sensual  listening experience enjoying Anoushka Shankar's amazing album RISE as 16/44.1 rbcd this morning.
No other digital product I've heard  so far, makes well recorded  16/44.1 as enjoyable as the Mscaler!
I am all with Rob as far as the Mscaler is concerned. Once heard in a good system and with well recorded acoustic music, there's simply no going back to anything less than 1M taps mscaling for me.

Cheers CC


----------



## adrianm

Christer said:


> 6k€,which is about half price of Dave


You need a new dealer mate  That said i'm on my way to buy the M-scaler now


----------



## Christer

adrianm said:


> You need a new dealer mate  That said i'm on my way to buy the M-scaler now


Let's call it a draw then, shall we?

I should have said nearly half price not half price. But it seems the benefits of the Mscaler are gradually dawning on you too.
Did you listen to something acoustic?
Enjoy the Dave/HMS. I Hope you will also find a suitable upgrade to the not so good BNC cables that will come with your HMS.
Cheers CC


----------



## HeeBroG

Christer said:


> Dave/HMS directly clipping with large scale orchestral  non compressed  classical music with  both Susvara and Utopia and even HEKV2 in my experience  is NOT nice to hear and apart from the very high price asked imho one of  the main reasons I have personally, not bought a Dave.



Hi Christer,

I find it extraordinary that you heard clipping with DAVE driving Utopia directly. What volume level do you play at?
Do you recall the track you played?

I personally can't go beyond -15dB on DAVE with Utopia. It is simply too loud.
I understand DAVE can go to +3dB without Mscaler and +5dB with before reaching maximum output for music recorded at 0dBFS.


----------



## ecwl

adrianm said:


> This is interesting for a future Dave :
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/amd-agrees-to-buy-rival-chip-maker-xilinx-for-35-billion-11603794663


Yes. This is fascinating. Perhaps less so for the DAVE thread. Because I suspect the primary reason why we can't have a Mojo/Hugo 2 with more taps and better noise-shaping is because they are still on 28nm FPGA, as compared to my iPhone 12 Pro which is now on 5nm process. Now, there is no guarantee that costs for FPGA would come down. In fact, it might go up. Even though Xilinx has 20nm and 16nm FPGAs, I think Rob Watts has said currently, it is too cost prohibitive to develop DACs with them, in addition to other issues associated with these products for DACs. Or they might even discontinue FPGAs that are suitable for DACs because they're not sufficiently profitable. It's always hard to know. Moreover, some of Chord DAC thermal issues are also related to the Pulse Array DAC and the total number of elements in it, rather than the FPGA in use.
At the end of the day, I'd like to remain optimistic and that we are going to get higher performing portable DACs at lower costs from Chord. But as with most mergers and acquisitions, I suspect we won't see the end results for a few more years.


----------



## JaZZ

Christer said:


> I  really hope that the new amps Rob is apparently working on currently will be the solution to Dave's  real Achilles Heel especially when used with the Mscaler and several of the difficult to drive  highend headphones mentioned earlier in this thread.
> And if I understand things correctly there won't even be any need for a Dave if one already owns an Mscaler?
> 
> Dave/HMS directly clipping with large scale orchestral  non compressed  classical music with  both Susvara and Utopia and even HEKV2 in my experience  is NOT nice to hear and apart from the very high price asked imho one of  the main reasons I have personally, not bought a Dave.
> ...


Hi Christer

Some time ago I've asked you to send me the respective files (or excerpts), but for some reason it didn't happen.




HeeBroG said:


> Hi Christer,
> 
> I find it extraordinary that you heard clipping with DAVE driving Utopia directly. What volume level do you play at?
> Do you recall the track you played?
> ...


I say it's impossible for the DAVE to clip with the Utopia. It anything, it's his ear drums clipping.


----------



## Rob Watts

AMD buying Xilinx for $35 billion - that doesn't make any kind of financial sense. Xilinx annual revenues are only $3 billion...


----------



## adrianm

Rob Watts said:


> AMD buying Xilinx for $35 billion - that doesn't make any kind of financial sense. Xilinx annual revenues are only $3 billion...


Looks like they were stashing those good FPGA's under the mattress 
 I read they were working together on datacenter stuff, maybe there's some valuable IP on Xilinx' side.


----------



## adrianm (Oct 27, 2020)

Christer said:


> Let's call it a draw then, shall we?
> 
> I should have said nearly half price not half price. But it seems the benefits of the Mscaler are gradually dawning on you too.
> Did you listen to something acoustic?
> ...


Thanks, well they were apparent once i got the optical cable mess sorted out, and even more so after it was gone. From a bang for buck perspective i maintain that it makes little sense but i've just resigned to the fact that few things in this hobby do. I was also swayed by how much more i liked the stock psu than the Farad Super 3 (though i get that some people have opposing views).
  Thanks  i'll get to the BNC cables later. In case anyone's interested it seems M-scalers have just barely surpassed Dave's in sales, based on the S/N .
 Edit : my bad, around 1k to go.


----------



## Christer

Rob Watts said:


> AMD buying Xilinx for $35 billion - that doesn't make any kind of financial sense. Xilinx annual revenues are only $3 billion...


What if Xilinx had something "cooking" we don't know about but AMD does and just could not resist?
How many taps did you say it would take to deliver full 24 bit accuracy again?
256 M?

 Cheers CC


----------



## koven

Rob Watts said:


> AMD buying Xilinx for $35 billion - that doesn't make any kind of financial sense. Xilinx annual revenues are only $3 billion...



That's a shortsighted factor in a strategic long play like this though, they're expecting significant synergies and exposure. Xilinx has their foot in a breadth of markets that AMD can leverage and build upon. Only time will tell if this expensive hail mary was genius or not. I'd have some faith in what Lisa Su is planning though. AMD was on the cusp of collapse when she took over and today they're exponentially more relevant.


----------



## lovethatsound

HeeBroG said:


> Hi Christer,
> 
> I find it extraordinary that you heard clipping with DAVE driving Utopia directly. What volume level do you play at?
> Do you recall the track you played?
> ...


You guys like your music very loud,,when I use my utopia with the dave it's  anywhere from -44 to -35 and that's loud.


----------



## adrianm (Oct 27, 2020)

Well apparently M-scalers are like kids. They're better when they're yours. And when you keep power cables away from the rest of them.
  That said, i find myself listening at 8-9 db louder than the test m-scaler on the same tracks. Anyone have any idea what's happening? I am using different BNC sockets but that should make no difference (unless you listen to Audiobacon, who claims 3,and 4 sound best, which is coincidentally what i'm using  ).
  Edit : Apparently Tidal reset some of the settings, everything is back to normal.


----------



## Christer (Oct 27, 2020)

JaZZ said:


> Hi Christer
> 
> Some time ago I've asked you to send me the respective files (or excerpts), but for some reason it didn't happen.
> 
> ...


Hmm, I can't remember you asking  me for any files, but  one  very obvious example I still remember was the cd layer of SSO's SACD recording of Rachmaninov's 2nd symphony on BIS and it was only Dave WITH the Mscaler  that clipping occurred with the Utopia.
Utopia sounded quite good and no clipping, but not ideal via Dave alone.
I was and am still  referring to Dave /HMS!
That's when things got really tough for Dave .
If I remember correctly HMS "steals" 3dB from Dave's already not very efficient amping.

But it sounded clearly better and quite close to how I'd heard it  both live in the hall and via the ADC  used at sessions, and  via Dave/HMS and the Woo Audio 33 headphone amp.
though.
Like most BIS productions from there and elsewhere, it is an excellent example of how to record a symphonic work realistically.
With Susvara and no headphone amp, clipping was even more obvious with HMS in the equation.
An absolute no go combination,with such non compressed large scale classical music recordings imho.

By the way, the same recording sounds very nice indeed  even via my humble Qutest/HMS and either of my three headphone amps by the way ,absolutely no signs of clipping.
And via my  900 watts per channel amp and electrostatic speakers its a real stunner though rivalled by BIS's 24/96 files of Rach's 1st symphony which has got some very loud but  absolutely clean climaxes with enough amping.


Cheers CC


----------



## Christer (Oct 27, 2020)

lovethatsound said:


> You guys like your music very loud,,when I use my utopia with the dave it's  anywhere from -44 to -35 and that's loud.


For clarification I both  was and I am still referring to Dave WITH the Mscaler, not Dave alone regarding the Utopia.
But even on its own I  sometimes preferred Dave with a separate headphone amp with several headphones and complex  demanding large scale symphonic material.

I still remember what the Singapore Chord rep once said regarding Dave even before Mscaler was on the horizon.
"It really  comes to life with a good headphone amp.
And with the HMS that is  imho unfortunately a fact for me, with  some difficult to drive headphones.
Cheers CC


----------



## JaZZ

Can you send me the Wave or Flac file from this Rachmaninov SACD's CD layer – via cloud (and PM)?

The M Scaler doesn't steal 3 dB from the DAVE's output power, it just reduces the gain – power stays the same.



Christer said:


> ...And with the HMS that is  imho unfortunately a fact, with  some difficult to drive headphones.
> Cheers CC


The M Scaler definitely has nothing to do with the clipping – that's what the gain reduction is meant for (→ padding against potential clipping). So I suspect it may be the increased signal accuracy that makes some critical sound patterns more obvious than without it and via additional amplification. 

Personally I've never heard clipping from the DAVE that's not on the recording. And I like to listen fairly loud.


----------



## Christer

JaZZ said:


> Can you send me the Wave or Flac file from this Rachmaninov SACD's CD layer – via cloud (and PM)?
> 
> The M Scaler doesn't steal 3 dB from the DAVE's output power, it just reduces the gain – power stays the same.
> 
> ...



Hello  again Jazz, sorry, but  I can't do that for you, its a copy-righted promo disc I  got directly from the SSO, a disc which I am not allowed to send anyone digital copies of like that.
But I can recommend that you buy it, or for that matter, their recording of Rach's 1st symphony which is an even better recording than the SACD BIS 1712 of the 2nd symphony. BIS1712 is a native  24/44.1 recording and the 1st which I can't remember the disc number of now, I only have it as download, is a native 24/96 recording.
And yes as expected  24/96 sounds better than 24/44.1 in this case.
More effortless  and more realistic via my  Mscaler.
Both are available for download as native hi res files from e.Classical.com
But I  only used the 16/44.1 layer of the SACD disc they had just given me during some of  those early DAVE/ BLU2 /HMS tests.
Nor do I suspect the  Mscaler to have been the culprit as such, on the contrary its truly the "Saviour" when even  Dave alone is not quite enough with really complex and really busy, richly scored acoustic music.

Regarding the clipping or overload it seems you are still misunderstanding what I said. It WAS directly and without additional amping that clipping or overload occurred via Dave/HMS and was also confirmed by staff at two different shops as well.
The problem as I heard it was quite  an obvious  case of not enough watts/ raw power or voltage / current or a combination of both?
Reproduction was anything but the effortless SQ I had expected. 

I am not a tech  guy as you know, but some really nasty distortions was what I could hear at  climaxes without the extra amping.
Additional amping both via two different WOO Audio amps and another brand I can't remember the name of, actually cured the problem! 

Instant Wow, yes now this is what I had also expected  from Dave/HMS on their own.
I had already been very impressed by a completely unexpected DGG early rbcd of Baroque music that I had never before heard reproduced even remotely so realistically as via DAVE/BLU2 and was expecting to be overwhelmed  by a much more recent and better than DGG recording and one I already knew live from the hall. 
 But to my surprise the opposite happened.

And as I said in my earlier post, via my Qutest/HMS there are absolutely NO audible signs of any clipping ever, with any of my own amps with this recording or the VAST majority of  other good recordings in my collection.

Maybe I am using a wrong term?maybe overload would better describe how Dave/HMS behaved unaided, when it couldn't cope with what it had been fed with difficult to drive headphones and without "A little  help of a friend".
Whatever the correct term is, on both occasions it sounded quite nasty and very far from what I  had expected.
The only other time I've been really disappointed by Dave/HMS was when the kid at the Chord desk at Canjam in Singapore  I guess,had  accidently connected the BNCs wrong or pressed the wrong buttons,  and only reluctantly admitted having done anything wrong when Rob was called in and corrected things.
I kept telling him, "But for God's sake it is  distorted bl.... mono can't you even hear that"? to no avail, until Rob arrived on the scene and saved the day.
Cheers CC


----------



## JaZZ

Christer said:


> Hello  again Jazz, sorry, but  I can't do that for you, its a copy-righted promo disc I  got directly from the SSO, a disc which I am not allowed to send anyone digital copies of like that.
> But I can recommend that you buy it, or for that matter, their recording of Rach's 1st symphony which is an even better recording than the SACD BIS 1712 of the 2nd symphony. BIS1712 is a native  24/44.1 recording and the 1st which I can't remember the disc number of now, I only have it as download, is a native 24/96 recording.
> And yes as expected  24/96 sounds better than 24/44.1 in this case.
> More effortless  and more realistic via my  Mscaler.
> ...


Actually I'm already fully served with Rachmaninov Symphonies and Piano Concertos (also in 24/96), but out of interest I would buy the track with the critical «clipping» if you can safely name me the matching recording and format (including the exact position). I'm registered at _eClassical._

Just from a technical perspective: From what I get -25 dB is already extremely loud with the Utopia (as is -e.g. 7 dB with the HE1000 or the HD 800), and with such a setting clipping is simply impossible for the DAVE, regardless of dynamic peaks (which won't exceed the selected volume level).


----------



## number1sixerfan

number1sixerfan said:


> I have both the Susvaras and the TC's and it's definitely not a myth. However, I haven't used them directly out of the Dave since the first week of owning it. I'll try to revisit tonight and share some thoughts.



Can confirm again, the Susvaras are flat out not listenable via the Dave alone imo. They just do not sound good out of the headphone out. The TCs I think you could squeak by if you absolutely desired to, but it's much fuller and with it's normal bottom end with the added power of a good external amp. I definitely wouldn't spend that kind of money on a headphone while not getting the most out of them, but that's just me. But it's pretty simple to me, either don't use those headphones or add an amp.. shouldn't really be this much controversy on the topic lol



adrianm said:


> Unless you've heard and specifically love those headphones i'm not sure why they're a priority for you. There's always a new flavor of the month. A lot of new reviews put the Final Audio D8k Pro at least at the same level and those are easy to drive for example. Doesn't matter if they don't do it for u though. I'm thinking of giving them a try when i do go with open backs.
> If you're really bent on them you can just get a dedicated amp and be done with it.



I think the bigger question for me would be why spend top dollar for a high end DAC while limiting the ability to listen to some* TOTL headphones. Susvara and TCs are quite a bit better than anything else out there that I've heard. But I do agree that a dedicated amp is a very simple solution with really good results (and it doesn't have to be some $5k+ amp either) 



Christer said:


> But even on its own I  sometimes preferred Dave with a separate headphone amp with several headphones and complex  demanding large scale symphonic material.



I agree with this as well. I like the Utopia from the Dave a lot, but prefer it with the Woo added slightly. Same for the Verite Closed as well. In either case, the sound is truly amazing.. and if I didn't have the TC/Susvara, I would be fine without an additional amp long term.


----------



## flyte3333

Rob Watts said:


> AMD buying Xilinx for $35 billion - that doesn't make any kind of financial sense. Xilinx annual revenues are only $3 billion...



Forecast is for that annual revenue to jump up?

Based on future things only those within Xilinx may know?


----------



## Christer (Oct 28, 2020)

JaZZ said:


> Actually I'm already fully served with Rachmaninov Symphonies and Piano Concertos (also in 24/96), but out of interest I would buy the track with the critical «clipping» if you can safely name me the matching recording and format (including the exact position). I'm registered at _eClassical._
> 
> Just from a technical perspective: From what I get -25 dB is already extremely loud with the Utopia (as is -e.g. 7 dB with the HE1000 or the HD 800), and with such a setting clipping is simply impossible for the DAVE, regardless of dynamic peaks (which won't exceed the selected volume level).


Hello Jazz, after re-reading my own posts on this subject I have a very embarrassing admisson to make this morning!
I should have refrained from mentioning Utopia in my posts at all, and only used Susvara as an  example in my take on Dave's Achilles heel and I would have been on much safer ground than from resorting to by now quite misty memories instead of facts.

I now realize that by doing so I've painted myself in a corner I have great difficulty getting out from without losing all honour and credibility.

I could of course easily have hired a hit man to have you decapitated to solve the honour problem.

But then my conscience kicked in!
Yes I do in fact have a conscience,although quite  a spacious one ,but still a conscience so in the end, I decided against that line of action.

Instead I now choose to admit that you are arguing with logic and facts  all the way,and I got a bit carried away and added things to the discussion I should not have added.
Mea culpa!
My last straw of trying to "save face" would be to blame my "very temporary" lack of logic and actual provable facts, on the actual fact that I was under the influence of intoxicating liquids when I wrote  my posts.
I went to town yesterday  and bought some  extra strong German Oktoberfest Bier.

Cheers CC


----------



## adrianm

number1sixerfan said:


> I think the bigger question for me would be why spend top dollar for a high end DAC


Well the answer is in the question, Dave is first and foremost a dac. As far as other high(er?) end dacs, there is just Bartok afaik with an integrated headphone amp and it's listed as having the same power as Dave. 
    I guess if you have a headphone collection an amp is a a must-have, i personally don't really see the point, i'd rather stick to one pair per use case.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Oct 28, 2020)

Rob Watts said:


> AMD buying Xilinx for $35 billion - that doesn't make any kind of financial sense. Xilinx annual revenues are only $3 billion...



I totally agree with you Rob. - (Xilinx - Crazy valuation!)

AMD had a problem though, to offer a 'realistic' price they would have needed to offer below the prevailing share price of the company. As it was, their offer was still only 25% above market price. Such is the madness of current stock market valuations particularly regarding 'tech stocks'. We are in the midst of a global Pandemic with unemployment due to sky-rocket to levels not seen for many decades and yet the S&P500 is still valued at 31 times 10yr average earnings (PE10 Schiller calculation). To put that in perspective its still riding the 2nd highest peak in the last 150 years. The only time that metric was higher was during the Dot.com bubble and we know what happened to that. Pension funds are going to get wiped-out imo. .........as you can imagine I am a hoot at parties! 




S&P500 Price earnings ratio is based on average inflation-adjusted earnings from the previous 10 years, known as the Cyclically Adjusted PE Ratio (CAPE Ratio), Shiller PE Ratio, or PE 10


EDIT: 13:07 - I could be wrong of course. Nothing would surprise me in this market! 
https://www.multpl.com/shiller-pe


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Back on topic:

I see 'Wave High Fidelity Storm Reference BNC Cables' received a superb review a couple of days ago (from Positive Feedback), particularly in relation to their use with M Scaler/Dave combo. Congratulations Nick!

https://positive-feedback.com/revie...ave-high-fidelity-storm-reference-bnc-cables/


----------



## henryxiao

Guys I need help please!

Currently using mscaler->dave->xi audio formula s + powerman -> 1266 phi tc   

Since I felt some distortion happening, anyone using this combo with the amp at highest volume (In this way volume control on the amp should be bypassed?...)  and use the dave as a preamp to control the volume? 

Here is the specification of the xi audio formula s amp:   I use low gain.

*Output:* 6W @ 16 ohms
Input Z: 10 Kohms
Input Sensitivity: 1000 mV
*Gain:*Selectable 10 dB (Low) / 16 dB (High)
THD: 0.0006% @ 300 mW, distortion character compensated for high-end music playback
Noise floor: -110 dBV
-20db @ digital pre amp mode the volume is already loud enough for me, but I'm not sure the voltage output @ -20db is sufficient for the amp input sensitivity.... also not sure if using the amp this way can cause bigger distortion....

Thanks very much!


----------



## adrianm

Does the way the BNC's are connected matter ? Reversing 3 and 4 on Dave while keeping them the same on the m-scaler i mean.


----------



## JaZZ

Christer said:


> Hello Jazz, after re-reading my own posts on this subject I have a very embarrassing admisson to make this morning!
> I should have refrained from mentioning Utopia in my posts at all, and only used Susvara as an  example in my take on Dave's Achilles heel and I would have been on much safer ground than from resorting to by now quite misty memories instead of facts.
> 
> I now realize that by doing so I've painted myself in a corner I have great difficulty getting out from without losing all honour and credibility.
> ...



Thanks for your honesty! It's a relief for me, as I was seriously puzzled. And you seemed to confirm those who proclaim that the DAVE's output stage is not up to the task when it comes to driving headphones – which completely contradicts my own experience.

Now I can absolutely see how someone can like the DAVE better through an external headphone amplifier – it may make the sound fuller, warmer and generally more forgiving to the headphone's tonal flaws or critical recordings. On the other hand that has nothing to do with higher fidelity, technical superiority. And I'm explicitly not talking of hard to drive headphones (Susvara, Abyss...), although my own audition of the Susvara has led me to prefer the direct connection to the HiFiMan EF1000 amplifier. That said, audible distortion/clipping produced by the DAVE with volume settings below +4 dB is still another matter and something I consider impossible.


----------



## Hooster

JaZZ said:


> Now* I can absolutely see how someone can like the DAVE better through an external headphone amplifier* – it may make the sound fuller, warmer and generally more forgiving to the headphone's tonal flaws or critical recordings. *On the other hand that has nothing to do with higher fidelity, technical superiority.*



Great post. It all depends on your priorities. Are you after high fidelity and technical superiority or are you looking for hours of listening pleasure? That is the question. If all I wanted was high fidelity and technical superiority my life would be simple. Just allocate a budget and buy the gear that measures the best, has lowest distortion, sufficient power, etc. I have been there and done that but it did not work for me.


----------



## JaZZ

Hooster said:


> Great post. It all depends on your priorities. Are you after high fidelity and technical superiority or are you looking for hours of listening pleasure? That is the question. If all I wanted was high fidelity and technical superiority my life would be simple. Just allocate a budget and buy the gear that measures the best, has lowest distortion, sufficient power, etc. I have been there and done that but it did not work for me.



Actually you can have both at the same time (and without the expense for an extra amp). I have explained it multiple times. But it's not well received


----------



## miketlse

Christer said:


> Hello Jazz, after re-reading my own posts on this subject I have a very embarrassing admisson to make this morning!
> I should have refrained from mentioning Utopia in my posts at all, and only used Susvara as an  example in my take on Dave's Achilles heel and I would have been on much safer ground than from resorting to by now quite misty memories instead of facts.
> 
> I now realize that by doing so I've painted myself in a corner I have great difficulty getting out from without losing all honour and credibility.
> ...


Great post Christer.
Yes 2020 is a strange year for most music lovers, especially with covid restrictions.
Don't worry, most of us need an occasional glass of single malt or whatever, but views/opinions about good headphones/tracks etc are always valuable (admittedle sometimes short, medium or long term.)


----------



## Hooster

JaZZ said:


> Actually you can have both at the same time (and without the expense for an extra amp). I have explained it multiple times. But it's not well received



You can explain it all you like, but that does not change the fact that some people prefer the sound with an external amp.


----------



## JaZZ

Hooster said:


> You can explain it all you like, but that does not change the fact that *some people prefer the sound with an external amp*.


Compared to what?


----------



## Hooster

JaZZ said:


> Compared to what?



Compared to without one.


----------



## jlbrach

henryxiao said:


> Guys I need help please!
> 
> Currently using mscaler->dave->xi audio formula s + powerman -> 1266 phi tc
> 
> ...


I have the formula s/powerman combo with the blu2/dave and have never experienced what you describe although I have never pushed the volume beyond listening levels to test it


----------



## Hooster

henryxiao said:


> Guys I need help please!
> 
> Currently using mscaler->dave->xi audio formula s + powerman -> 1266 phi tc
> 
> ...



I would try setting the DAVE to the max and then using the xi audio volume control to control the volume. In your case the cable between DAVE and xi audio could be picking up some noise and if you have the xi audio set at max volume you are going to hear it.


----------



## JaZZ

Hooster said:


> Compared to without one.


And that's exactly not exactly what I propose as an alternative. 

Instead of obfuscating polemic you could have posted something constructive. E.g. why you personally are not willing to try the proposed approach promising to optimize both aspects at once: high fidelity and listening pleasure. Or why it isn't for everyone.

At least you're actually capable of friendly posts, as #16,136 shows.


----------



## Hooster

JaZZ said:


> And that's exactly not exactly what I propose as an alternative.
> 
> Instead of obfuscating polemic you could have posted something constructive. E.g. why you personally are not willing to try the proposed approach promising to optimize both aspects at once: high fidelity and listening pleasure. Or why it isn't for everyone.
> 
> *At least you're actually capable of friendly posts*, as #16,136 shows.



Why don't you give that a try? Also, don't assume that a post is unfriendly just because it does not agree with your paradigm.


----------



## JaZZ

Now we're getting somewhere! Which paradigm are you talking about?


----------



## Triode User

Hooster said:


> I would try setting the DAVE to the max and then using the xi audio volume control to control the volume. In your case the cable between DAVE and xi audio could be picking up some noise and if you have the xi audio set at max volume you are going to hear it.



Did you really mean trying setting the Dave at maximum ie +19dB? @henryxiao That might be too much for the xi audio formula s and might make it clip especially in loud passages. If it happens it will sound like bad distortion and can destruct speakers very quickly and therefore possibly headphones. I suggest caution and start with a lower Dave output to start with eg 0dB or maybe +3dB.


----------



## Hooster

Triode User said:


> Did you really mean trying setting the Dave at maximum ie +19dB? @henryxiao *That might be too much for the xi audio formula s and might make it clip especially in loud passages.* If it happens it will sound like bad distortion and can destruct speakers very quickly and therefore possibly headphones. I suggest caution and start with a lower Dave output to start with eg 0dB or maybe +3dB.



Not likely. The xi audio will only see what comes after it's own volume control has attenuated the signal. No chance of destroying anything unless he turns the volume of the xi audio up to speaker or headphone destroying levels.


----------



## Triode User

Hooster said:


> Not likely. The xi audio will only see what comes after it's own volume control has attenuated the signal. No chance of destroying anything unless he turns the volume of the xi audio up to speaker or headphone destroying levels.



Thanks. I admit I speak only from a speaker perspective where if there is a volume control in an amplifier it is often part of a preamplifier circuit which can indeed clip if the input voltage is too high. If the xi has a potentiometer immediately after the inputs then I agree that will reduce their voltage before the actual amplifier stages.


----------



## adrianm

Well after a few days with the m-scaler i'm as happy with this purchase as i was with Dave. It definitely makes a bigger difference than i initially realized. That said the BNC's are pretty fiddly. I can't put my finger on it but reversing them changes the sound a bit.


----------



## Arniesb

adrianm said:


> Well after a few days with the m-scaler i'm as happy with this purchase as i was with Dave. It definitely makes a bigger difference than i initially realized. That said the BNC's are pretty fiddly. I can't put my finger on it but reversing them changes the sound a bit.


Told you so.


----------



## adrianm

Arniesb said:


> Told you so.


Well you should've heard it with the bad optical cable. It was an abomination. This is worlds apart. Even solo Dave with a better (let's call it fitting for now since i haven't tested it yet) cable was. Something did seem off from your reactions though. Plus another friend who got his M-scaler at the same time.


----------



## Arniesb

adrianm said:


> Well you should've heard it with the bad optical cable. It was an abomination. This is worlds apart. Even solo Dave with a better (let's call it fitting for now since i haven't tested it yet) cable was. Something did seem off from your reactions though. Plus another friend who got his M-scaler at the same time.


Now if you try Innuos phoenix with both you will be blown away. Damn that thing can make any dac perform at the insane level.


----------



## adrianm

Arniesb said:


> Now if you try Innuos phoenix with both you will be blown away. Damn that thing can make any dac perform at the insane level.


I'm sticking with optical at the moment, only thing that i'm going to try is the Wave cables and then i'm done


----------



## audio_1

adrianm said:


> Well after a few days with the m-scaler i'm as happy with this purchase as i was with Dave. It definitely makes a bigger difference than i initially realized. That said the BNC's are pretty fiddly. I can't put my finger on it but reversing them changes the sound a bit.



Reversing the dual BNC cables on Dave switches the left and right channels around. It makes no difference on the TT 2 as it recognises the channel identification from the mScaler.


----------



## adrianm

audio_1 said:


> Reversing the dual BNC cables on Dave switches the left and right channels around. It makes no difference on the TT 2 as it recognises the channel identification from the mScaler.


Thanks


----------



## naynay

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Back on topic:
> 
> I see 'Wave High Fidelity Storm Reference BNC Cables' received a superb review a couple of days ago (from Positive Feedback), particularly in relation to their use with M Scaler/Dave combo. Congratulations Nick!
> 
> https://positive-feedback.com/revie...ave-high-fidelity-storm-reference-bnc-cables/


A lot of extra money to solder some wires.


----------



## iamoneagain (Oct 31, 2020)

naynay said:


> A lot of extra money to solder some wires.



Can someone post the links to the parts needed to make your own cables?  I know it’s somewhere posted here or in the mscaler thread. Think can make your own for 1/3 of the price.

Or has anyone found a linear power supply that works? I know Rob says they are worst than the switching power supply but then we know that’s what’s causing the RFI to feed into the Dave.

I’m still happy with the Poweradd battery but looking for solution where don’t have to mess with charging but don’t have to shell out over $1000 for cables.


----------



## audio_1

iamoneagain said:


> Or has anyone found a linear power supply that works? I know Rob says they are worst than the switching power supply but then we know that’s what’s causing the RFI to feed into the Dave.



It's not the switching power supply that is causing the RFI to feed into Dave. It's the mains connection. A linear power supply will do the same thing. Optical isolation using the opto DX or cables with appropriately specified ring or sleeve ferrites are the only alternative to a battery supply. Split ferrites can also cause noise. If not into DIY try the Wave cables.


----------



## iamoneagain (Nov 1, 2020)

audio_1 said:


> It's not the switching power supply that is causing the RFI to feed into Dave. It's the mains connection. A linear power supply will do the same thing. Optical isolation using the opto DX or cables with appropriately specified ring or sleeve ferrites are the only alternative to a battery supply. Split ferrites can also cause noise. If not into DIY try the Wave cables.



Thanks for the info. Think I’ll stick with battery for now. Wave cables are $1850 for best ones and $1150 for next level down. I haven’t heard any comments on the Stone version. I’ll go hunting for the links and instructions for the DIY cables.

I don’t like the idea of the opto X because then more boxes, cables and need 2 battery supplies. I’m trying to simplify my setup.


----------



## naynay (Nov 1, 2020)

As people are asking for the parts for the Ferrited BNC cables for Dave/M Scaler here are the links.

Post #11,938 of 12,027
Post #11,943 of 12,027
Post #12,007 of 12,027


----------



## JTbbb

iamoneagain said:


> Thanks for the info. Think I’ll stick with battery for now. Wave cables are $1850 for best ones and $1150 for next level down. I haven’t heard any comments on the Stone version. I’ll go hunting for the links and instructions for the DIY cables.
> 
> I don’t like the idea of the opto X because then more boxes, cables and need 2 battery supplies. I’m trying to simplify my setup.



I’m using the Stone, which is the next level down again, and am very pleased with them. I cannot say how they compare to the more expensive ones from Wave as I have never tried them, but I did compare to a pair of cables costing twice as much from a respected company. The Stone cables calmed a very slight brashness from the treble in my system.


----------



## Jawed

adrianm said:


>


When M Scaler is that close to DAVE it really spoils the sound quality. I guess the Naim box will cause similar sound quality problems when it's that close to DAVE.

A computer monitor may also cause sound quality problems if DAVE is close.

Once HMS is set up in a system there's no need to see the colours or change its settings. The automatic input switching and the automatic "video mode" make it easy to hide HMS well out of the way. 60cm/2 feet separation between DAVE and HMS is my recommendation.

Free upgrade


----------



## adrianm

Jawed said:


> When M Scaler is that close to DAVE it really spoils the sound quality. I guess the Naim box will cause similar sound quality problems when it's that close to DAVE.
> 
> A computer monitor may also cause sound quality problems if DAVE is close.
> 
> ...


Thanks  i've since returned the Naim, it didn't really do anything for me over optical from my pc. I can easily move the m-scaler further away, had no idea Dave is that sensitive. Nothing i can do about the huge monitor though, Dave would just be out of reach. I get why the Naim would be a problem with the huge toroidal psu it has inside, is the monitor such a big deal though? I also can't find a way to hide the bnc's without crossing them over the power cables, i'm not hearing any difference though. I'm looking for something to stick in between them just to be safe.


----------



## naynay

Your Scaler's in Bypass mode.


----------



## adrianm

naynay said:


> Your Scaler's in Bypass mode.


No wonder i liked it so much  That's an old picture from when i was testing everything under the sun with it. It’s only 30 cm but this is it now, best i can do:


----------



## iamoneagain (Nov 1, 2020)

Jawed said:


> When M Scaler is that close to DAVE it really spoils the sound quality. I guess the Naim box will cause similar sound quality problems when it's that close to DAVE.
> 
> A computer monitor may also cause sound quality problems if DAVE is close.
> 
> ...



I have my Dave on a glass monitor stand about 6 inches above the mscaler.  I read the same thing about keeping them far apart, so wanted to see if that was true. I decided to separate the units about 3 feet apart the other day and but heard no difference.

They’re back to stacked and think looks much nicer that way.


----------



## adrianm (Nov 1, 2020)

iamoneagain said:


> I have my Dave on a glass monitor stand about 6 inches above the mscaler.  I read the same thing about keeping them far apart, so wanted to see if that was true. I decided to separate the units about 3 feet apart the other day and but heard no difference.
> 
> They’re back to stacked and think looks much nicer that way.


Well it was made to stack with the TT2 so i'm not sure how much of a difference it could make. Though testing them right next to each other and 35 cm apart i think i can hear a slight difference, might just be placebo though.


----------



## Jawed

adrianm said:


> Well it was made to stack with the TT2 so i'm not sure how much of a difference it could make. Though testing them right next to each other and 35 cm apart i think i can hear a slight difference, might just be placebo though.


Can't you put HMS on the floor? In my opinion it has no utility being close to hand and just takes desk space.

My HMS is in a cupboard.


----------



## adrianm

Jawed said:


> Can't you put HMS on the floor? In my opinion it has no utility being close to hand and just takes desk space.
> 
> My HMS is in a cupboard.


Expensive footrest  Why do you think it's that problematic from 35-40 cm away? Afaik all electronics have to have a level of RF below a certain threshold imposed by the EU. I can't imagine it emits that much RF to be a problem from that far away. And if it did it begs the question of usage with the TT2, which is not as well shielded as the Dave.


----------



## Mediahound

Jawed said:


> Can't you put HMS on the floor? In my opinion it has no utility being close to hand and just takes desk space.



It's nice to be able to see the LED's, especially the bitrate one so that at a glance, I know if I'm listening to redbook, high res., etc.


----------



## Jawed

adrianm said:


> Expensive footrest  Why do you think it's that problematic from 35-40 cm away? Afaik all electronics have to have a level of RF below a certain threshold imposed by the EU. I can't imagine it emits that much RF to be a problem from that far away. And if it did it begs the question of usage with the TT2, which is not as well shielded as the Dave.


Anyway it seems like you've got some benefit from wider spacing... Enjoy.

Perhaps people who don't hear a difference due to spacing have other RF problems that "swamp" the benefits of spacing.


----------



## adrianm

Jawed said:


> Anyway it seems like you've got some benefit from wider spacing... Enjoy.
> 
> Perhaps people who don't hear a difference due to spacing have other RF problems that "swamp" the benefits of spacing.


Well what i did think i noticed is less than using USB over optical for sure. So maybe you're right, i will try placing it under the desk just for fun at one point


----------



## iamoneagain

I’ve been able to hear all the little changes with different optical and usb and battery, but moving the mscaler was the one thing that I couldn’t tell a difference. 

And look how nice it looks stacked.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> I’ve been able to hear all the little changes with different optical and usb and battery, but moving the mscaler was the one thing that I couldn’t tell a difference.
> 
> And look how nice it looks stacked.


Well i've noticed a difference with the m-scaler right next to Dave, brushing against each other vs 30 cm away. Not sure where the point of diminishing returns is or whether it's just placebo. Maybe @Rob Watts can help us here. I suspect i know what the answer will be since it was made to be stacked with the TT2, but even the manual says it generates rf. 
  It does look nice .it wouldn't fit under my monitor since that's where i keep my Dave, but what stand is that?


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> Well i've noticed a difference with the m-scaler right next to Dave, brushing against each other vs 30 cm away. Not sure where the point of diminishing returns is or whether it's just placebo. Maybe @Rob Watts can help us here. I suspect i know what the answer will be since it was made to be stacked with the TT2, but even the manual says it generates rf.
> It does look nice .it wouldn't fit under my monitor since that's where i keep my Dave, but what stand is that?



The stand was only $22. Not sure if this link will work for other countries.

Glass Computer Monitor Stand Riser with Height Adjustable Multi... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076GZH1RD/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_api_i_-VfOFbP4J2ZT0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## iamoneagain

iamoneagain said:


> The stand was only $22. Not sure if this link will work for other countries.
> 
> Glass Computer Monitor Stand Riser with Height Adjustable Multi... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076GZH1RD/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_api_i_-VfOFbP4J2ZT0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1



It does have height adjustment but have at default which is about 3” above mscaler.


----------



## Triode User

Slightly off topic but it does concern the Dave. Can I ask any Innuos streamer owners what software they are using to connect to their Dave or Mscaler please? I have been using Roon with my Statement in experimental mode but last night I tried iPeng and SqueezePad becasue iPeng is often mentioned as being the best sound quality. To my ears iPeng resulted in a sound that was brightest and ultimately a bit fatiguing. Roon was smoothest and SqueezePad was somewhere in between. If I understand it correctly then iPeng and SqueezePad are both accessing the Statement in experimental mode and in which case I'm a bit flumoxed as to why all three sound different through the Mscaler + Dave combo.


----------



## AndrewOld (Nov 3, 2020)

Triode User said:


> Slightly off topic but it does concern the Dave. Can I ask any Innuos streamer owners what software they are using to connect to their Dave or Mscaler please? I have been using Roon with my Statement in experimental mode but last night I tried iPeng and SqueezePad becasue iPeng is often mentioned as being the best sound quality. To my ears iPeng resulted in a sound that was brightest and ultimately a bit fatiguing. Roon was smoothest and SqueezePad was somewhere in between. If I understand it correctly then iPeng and SqueezePad are both accessing the Statement in experimental mode and in which case I'm a bit flumoxed as to why all three sound different through the Mscaler + Dave combo.


IPeng and Squeezepad are only control points for LMS so it is difficult to understand how they might influence the sound - they are just different ways of controlling Logitech Media Server (LMS) which is presumably running on your Innuos. Roon Core is different software though, so could conceivably influence the sound in some way. Iirc there is an experimental mode of LMS using memory playback which some in the Innuos community, including I believe Innuos themselves,  think sounds better. There was some pressure on Roon awhile back to do something similar, which they resisted.  Here’s a post on the Roon forum I found, you’ll need to do a bit of digging to find the whole saga, but the claim was that since memory playback from LMS sounded better so Roon should do it too. would have come to a different conclusion. 
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/innuos-zenith-mkiii-as-roon-core/55203/39

Both LMS and Roon have settings to do with upsampling, filters, FLAC to WAV conversion etc.. which may affect SQ too.


----------



## Jawed

iamoneagain said:


> And look how nice it looks stacked.


Yeah definitely looks good.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Nov 3, 2020)

Triode User said:


> Slightly off topic but it does concern the Dave. Can I ask any Innuos streamer owners what software they are using to connect to their Dave or Mscaler please? I have been using Roon with my Statement in experimental mode but last night I tried iPeng and SqueezePad becasue iPeng is often mentioned as being the best sound quality. To my ears iPeng resulted in a sound that was brightest and ultimately a bit fatiguing. Roon was smoothest and SqueezePad was somewhere in between. If I understand it correctly then iPeng and SqueezePad are both accessing the Statement in experimental mode and in which case I'm a bit flumoxed as to why all three sound different through the Mscaler + Dave combo.



I use 3 controls depending upon which is to hand at the time (when I am around the house). iPeng for iPad, Squeeze Ctrl for Samsung Android Phone, Squeeze Control for Windows Laptop. Where possible I avoid iPeng because it makes my HIFI sound thinner. However, if more than one app is running on these devices at any one time this can be detrimental too. So I make sure the others are not open and running in the background.

I was told by someone at Innuos earlier in the year that they have been developing their own App and that it improves the sound meaningfully further. If their 2020 Statement software updates are anything to go by, this is reason to get excited imo. I believe the App was close to release back in June but of course nobody foresaw the affects of a Pandemic.

Regarding Roon, I was very interested in it because of the data feed but at the time an almost unanimous view on the internet was that it impaired SQ compared to the other controllers so I shelved that plan. Roon may have improved over time of course.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> I’ve been able to hear all the little changes with different optical and usb and battery, but moving the mscaler was the one thing that I couldn’t tell a difference.
> 
> And look how nice it looks stacked.


Still don't know how come you prefer crossfeed 0.


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> Still don't know how come you prefer crossfeed 0.



All my prior testing was done with my bad usb connection so I’ll have have to retest it. But think it depends on your headphones as well. Believe it helps open up closed headphones. It also depends on the angle of the drivers. And as I said before I grew up with headphones more than a speaker setup so I’m used to the head stage you get from headphones.


----------



## BallisticGT3

I have recently switched from using Ipeng to control my Innuos Statement, to now using Roon and my favourite music has never sounded so good. Until reading the last few posts, I didn't realise there was any difference in the software and had put it down to my hifi breaking in more as it doesn't get used a great deal.


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I use 3 controls depending upon which is to hand at the time (when I am around the house). iPeng for iPad, Squeeze Ctrl for Samsung Android Phone, Squeeze Control for Windows Laptop. Where possible I avoid iPeng because it makes my HIFI sound thinner.



Thanks, this sort of relates to my experience and with iPeng.



BallisticGT3 said:


> I have recently switched from using Ipeng to control my Innuos Statement, to now using Roon and my favourite music has never sounded so good. Until reading the last few posts, I didn't realise there was any difference in the software and had put it down to my hifi breaking in more as it doesn't get used a great deal.



I am not sure that I am 100% happy with the Roon sound quality because some classical music sounds rather rather constrained but equally there is something not good with the slight hardness that I hear with iPeng. Hopefully the long awaited Innuos app will be the best of all worlds. Anyway, apologies to other Dave owners who will no doubt be getting bored with this.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> Anyway, apologies to other Dave owners who will no doubt be getting bored with this.


Well this kind of confirms what i was saying with software in streamers making more of a difference than hardware. For some reason.


----------



## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> Thanks, this sort of relates to my experience and with iPeng.


That doesn’t make any sense. IPeng and Squeezepad are both control points. They just tell LMS what to play. They are not involved in the signal path. It is close to impossible to construe any reason, even one scraped from the lunatic fringe of audiophile voodoo, that could explain why they would have an effect on sound quality. Prove they are not involved in the playback chain by completely turning off your iPad or whatever you are using to run them on.


----------



## adrianm (Nov 3, 2020)

Well i was playing around with my cables yesterday trying to get them organized and my optical cable snapped out of the m-scaler. Initially i thought it was no big deal but now it seems lose and signal cuts off if i touch it...This is giving me flashbacks to my old optical cable being lose. I don't have the same problem with the other optical input, but i am worried it might happen again and something might break over there as well.
   Does anyone have any idea what could have broken and if it can be repaired?
Edit : well nothing looks broken, but it's just less secure than OPT2, stock Chord  cable is just as secure in both sockets for some reason.


----------



## adrianm (Nov 3, 2020)

Also, has anyone else notice the BNC outs on the online M-scaler manual are reversed compared to the markings on the M-scaler and the physical manual?
Edit: It's just the V1.0 version that i've been going off of apparently, the 1.1 version corrects it.


----------



## AndrewOld

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I use 3 controls depending upon which is to hand at the time (when I am around the house). iPeng for iPad, Squeeze Ctrl for Samsung Android Phone, Squeeze Control for Windows Laptop. Where possible I avoid iPeng because it makes my HIFI sound thinner. However, if more than one app is running on these devices at any one time this can be detrimental too. So I make sure the others are not open and running in the background.


Can you offer a remotely plausible explanation why a control point should have any influence on the sound that is coming out of LMS on your Innuos? The control point is not in the signal path. You can prove that by turning your iPad, phone or laptop off. I presume you have disabled the volume control on all control points?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

AndrewOld said:


> Can you offer a remotely plausible explanation why a control point should have any influence on the sound that is coming out of LMS on your Innuos? The control point is not in the signal path. You can prove that by turning your iPad, phone or laptop off. I presume you have disabled the volume control on all control points?



Andrew the only logical explanation I can come up with is that perhaps more than one app was running at the same time. I didn't go back and retest this theory. I am happy with my sound right now so hadn't bothered. Tbh I was very surprised when Innuos updated their control software and it made a difference to the sound. I was so skeptical at the time (questioning my own perception of the change) I contacted Nuno and he confirmed I was quite correct, it had improved the sound.


----------



## Lgn3

Triode User said:


> Thanks, this sort of relates to my experience and with iPeng.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure that I am 100% happy with the Roon sound quality because some classical music sounds rather rather constrained but equally there is something not good with the slight hardness that I hear with iPeng. Hopefully the long awaited Innuos app will be the best of all worlds. Anyway, apologies to other Dave owners who will no doubt be getting bored with this.



@AndrewOld has explained how there could be a difference in sound quality between LMS controlled by iPeng and Roon. However, it seems very strange that the same player software should sound  different depending on which control App is being used, which is what  @DaveRedRef-III  has posted.


----------



## Lgn3

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Andrew the only logical explanation I can come up with is that perhaps more than one app was running at the same time. I didn't go back and retest this theory. I am happy with my sound right now so hadn't bothered. Tbh I was very surprised when Innuos updated their control software and it made a difference to the sound. I was so skeptical at the time (questioning my own perception of the change) I contacted Nuno and he confirmed I was quite correct, it had improved the sound.



Out of interest,  when the control software was  updated were there also changes in the player software?  I suppose at some level there must have been.


----------



## AndrewOld

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Andrew the only logical explanation I can come up with is that perhaps more than one app was running at the same time. I didn't go back and retest this theory. I am happy with my sound right now so hadn't bothered. Tbh I was very surprised when Innuos updated their control software and it made a difference to the sound. I was so skeptical at the time (questioning my own perception of the change) I contacted Nuno and he confirmed I was quite correct, it had improved the sound.


I will say it again. The two apps you are running on your iPad or whatever to control LMS have nothing to do with the sound. They are not in the signal path. They just control what is played. You can prove this. Play something and turn off your iPad. The music continues. There are setting in LMS to allow the app to control volume in LMS (which might degrade sound quality), but there are also settings to avoid using the volume control in LMS and I would imagine that’s what you have set. Same with Roon. What you are saying is akin to saying you have two remote controls for your tv, and you get a better picture with one than the other. I’m not saying Roon does not sound different to LMS, just that I find it hard to believe two different LMS control apps can produce a difference.


----------



## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> I am not sure that I am 100% happy with the Roon sound quality because some classical music sounds rather rather constrained but equally there is something not good with the slight hardness that I hear with iPeng. Hopefully the long awaited Innuos app will be the best of all worlds. Anyway, apologies to other Dave owners who will no doubt be getting bored with this.


This is a valuable insight into Innuos ability to make good servers and/or your ability to hear differences.


----------



## adrianm

AndrewOld said:


> This is a valuable insight into Innuos ability to make good servers and/or your ability to hear differences.


Agreed. Looks like you're on fire tonight, care to take a crack at another fringe audio lunatic story? My optical  cable fits better into OPT2 rather than OPT1 (and sounds better because of it) ? They look identical, yet the cable is  flimsy into OPT1 ,won't click in and sound cuts out if i touch it , i'm not sure if something got damaged when the cable got ripped out. Weird thing is the stock Dave cable fits just as tight in both sockets, but  it's not as chunky.


----------



## AndrewOld (Nov 3, 2020)

adrianm said:


> Agreed. Looks like you're on fire tonight, care to take a crack at another fringe audio lunatic story? My optical  cable fits better into OPT2 rather than OPT1 (and sounds better because of it) ? They look identical, yet the cable is  flimsy into OPT1 ,won't click in and sound cuts out if i touch it , i'm not sure if something got damaged when the cable got ripped out. Weird thing is the stock Dave cable fits just as tight in both sockets, but  it's not as chunky.


That’s perfectly reasonable, there is a different mechanical and possibly electrical pathway. Even more possibly you broke something, or there is a bit of debris in the OPT1 socket. But tell me your hifi sounds different depending on which of two remote controls you pressed play on and I will find it hard to believe you.

PS. Chord have a track record of not always supporting the more extremely over-engineered optical cables, at least with the original Hugo.


----------



## STR-1

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I use 3 controls depending upon which is to hand at the time (when I am around the house). iPeng for iPad, Squeeze Ctrl for Samsung Android Phone, Squeeze Control for Windows Laptop. Where possible I avoid iPeng because it makes my HIFI sound thinner. However, if more than one app is running on these devices at any one time this can be detrimental too. So I make sure the others are not open and running in the background.
> 
> I was told by someone at Innuos earlier in the year that they have been developing their own App and that it improves the sound meaningfully further. If their 2020 Statement software updates are anything to go by, this is reason to get excited imo. I believe the App was close to release back in June but of course nobody foresaw the affects of a Pandemic.
> 
> Regarding Roon, I was very interested in it because of the data feed but at the time an almost unanimous view on the internet was that it impaired SQ compared to the other controllers so I shelved that plan. Roon may have improved over time of course.


Some comments from Nuno https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...ith-statement/?do=findComment&comment=1087860


----------



## iamoneagain

AndrewOld said:


> I will say it again. The two apps you are running on your iPad or whatever to control LMS have nothing to do with the sound. They are not in the signal path. They just control what is played. You can prove this. Play something and turn off your iPad. The music continues. There are setting in LMS to allow the app to control volume in LMS (which might degrade sound quality), but there are also settings to avoid using the volume control in LMS and I would imagine that’s what you have set. Same with Roon. What you are saying is akin to saying you have two remote controls for your tv, and you get a better picture with one than the other. I’m not saying Roon does not sound different to LMS, just that I find it hard to believe two different LMS control apps can produce a difference.



Don’t know much about this server but wouldn’t the output be different if using roon because of their RAAT protocol? Supposed to be streamlined.


----------



## AndrewOld

iamoneagain said:


> Don’t know much about this server but wouldn’t the output be different if using roon because of their RAAT protocol? Supposed to be streamlined.


Absolutely, it is perfect reasonable (though it wouldn’t be acceptable to many people) that Roon sounds different to LMS on the Innuos. What is much harder to understand is how two different remote control apps for the same piece of software - LMS - sound different, since they are not in the signal path. All they do is tell LMS which tracks to play. The iPad running them can be turned off and the music will continue.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Lgn3 said:


> Out of interest,  when the control software was  updated were there also changes in the player software?  I suppose at some level there must have been.



Hi Lgn3
With version 1.44 software on the Innuos Statement they improved the kernel and the engine. Apart from the improved SQ (notably the clarity) this also delivered faster handling of music data when searching for albums and artists.


----------



## Lgn3

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Hi Lgn3
> With version 1.44 software on the Innuos Statement they improved the kernel and the engine. Apart from the improved SQ (notably the clarity) this also delivered faster handling of music data when searching for albums and artists.



Thanks for the info. So that explains the improvement in SQ rather than any changes to the control software.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

It controls the importing of files, searching of files, editing and management thereof but i can see now how the term could be misleading Lgn3


----------



## adrianm

AndrewOld said:


> Even more possibly you broke something, or there is a bit of debris in the OPT1 socket.


Well i tested the Qed optical cable vs the one in the box. And i can't hear a difference between them, the stock one click in more securely than the QED  in the OPT2 , the QED doesn't click in at all into OPT1. I might be losing my mind here but i think both of them sound slightly better out of OPT2, i'm not sure if something could've been damaged, or if i was even using OPT1 before. The difference between them is so small though that i can't even be sure it's there. I might be suffering from ptsd from the old cable fit.


----------



## Lgn3

DaveRedRef-III said:


> It controls the importing of files, searching of files, editing and management thereof but i can see now how the term could be misleading Lgn3



Having gone to the Innuos website I see one  change listed which could impact SQ as well as the improvements you mention.

_Upgraded player engine to have higher priority in OS processes, reducing latency._


----------



## AndrewOld (Nov 3, 2020)

Lgn3 said:


> Having gone to the Innuos website I see one  change listed which could impact SQ as well as the improvements you mention.
> 
> _Upgraded player engine to have higher priority in OS processes, reducing latency._


Why would lower latency necessarily be a good thing? The best filters on the M Scaler have the highest latency. High latency gives you the possibility of larger buffers filled more smoothly. The music on a hard drive has been there for quite possibly years. Low latency is only really important in some studio contexts, eg live playing - musicians want to hear what they are playing as soon as they play it.

But even if Innuos have changed the latency of playback, it is still hard verging on impossible to understand how playback imitated by iPeng could sound different from playback initiated by Squeezepad.


----------



## Lgn3

AndrewOld said:


> Why would lower latency necessarily be a good thing? The best filters on the M Scaler have the highest latency. High latency gives you the possibility of larger buffers filled more smoothly. The music on a hard drive has been there for quite possibly years. Low latency is only really important in some studio contexts, eg live playing - musicians want to hear what they are playing as soon as they play it.
> 
> But even if Innuos have changed the latency of playback, it is still hard verging on impossible to understand how playback imitated by iPeng could sound different from playback initiated by Squeezepad.



I agree with all of the above but was just trying to isolate any software changes that could impact SQ because clearly changes to the control software only would not. Your analogy to the TV remote in a previous post nicely illustrated the point that using different control points with the same player software could not possibly effect SQ.


----------



## sm60

AndrewOld said:


> That doesn’t make any sense. IPeng and Squeezepad are both control points. They just tell LMS what to play. They are not involved in the signal path. It is close to impossible to construe any reason, even one scraped from the lunatic fringe of audiophile voodoo, that could explain why they would have an effect on sound quality. Prove they are not involved in the playback chain by completely turning off your iPad or whatever you are using to run them on.



I used iPeng and Squeezebox extensively for about 10 years, but ever since I signed on to a lifetime membership with Roon, I view LMS and iPeng as quaint relics from yesteryear. My various Squeezebox Touch devices are in my garage waiting to be junked. 

I agree about Roon having essentially *zero* effect on sound quality, unless you start fooling around with various lossy types of DSP. You can of course go silly with upsampling, and upsample everything to DSD 512, but all you're doing is increasing global warming by burning up CPU cycles. There's no evidence I know of that shows high bit rate DSD upsampling does anything to "improve" the sound. Mathematically, DSD conversion incurs a huge amount of ultrasonic noise, so there's in fact evidence to show you're making things worse by moving from PCM space to DSD space (noise wise, 24 bit 192Khz PCM has far lower noise than any DSD format). 

Ignoring sonics, Roon transforms listening in ways I could have scarcely imagined 20 years ago. With a subscription to Qoubuz, I can now stream tens of thousands of high bit rate classical recordings, and every evening, I sample several new recordings, and can also read liner notes through the PDFs that Roon/Qoubuz make available. I can never imagine going back to iPeng or Squeezebox. It's like playing eight track tapes or digging out my old VCR or Betamax!


----------



## adrianm

sm60 said:


> I used iPeng and Squeezebox extensively for about 10 years, but ever since I signed on to a lifetime membership with Roon, I view LMS and iPeng as quaint relics from yesteryear. My various Squeezebox Touch devices are in my garage waiting to be junked.
> 
> I agree about Roon having essentially *zero* effect on sound quality, unless you start fooling around with various lossy types of DSP. You can of course go silly with upsampling, and upsample everything to DSD 512, but all you're doing is increasing global warming by burning up CPU cycles. There's no evidence I know of that shows high bit rate DSD upsampling does anything to "improve" the sound. Mathematically, DSD conversion incurs a huge amount of ultrasonic noise, so there's in fact evidence to show you're making things worse by moving from PCM space to DSD space (noise wise, 24 bit 192Khz PCM has far lower noise than any DSD format).
> 
> Ignoring sonics, Roon transforms listening in ways I could have scarcely imagined 20 years ago. With a subscription to Qoubuz, I can now stream tens of thousands of high bit rate classical recordings, and every evening, I sample several new recordings, and can also read liner notes through the PDFs that Roon/Qoubuz make available. I can never imagine going back to iPeng or Squeezebox. It's like playing eight track tapes or digging out my old VCR or Betamax!


Well what do you feel like Roon offers over the Qobuz or Tidal native app user experience wise?


----------



## Triode User

sm60 said:


> I agree about Roon having essentially *zero* effect on sound quality, unless you start fooling around with various lossy types of DSP.



I started this conversation in relation to the Innuos streamers and so I have swopped emails with Nuno from Innuos. He tells me that experimental mode uses Squeezelite with different parameters when using iPeng compared to the Roon implementation of Squeezelite. Nuno has offered to look at things with me in a few weeks when he is less busy to see if we can find what sounds best to me. I admit I would like to use Roon because it is so user friendly so I’m hoping to end up with Roon sounding at least as good as anything else but for me it is not there yet (I don’t use any Roon processing at all).


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> Well what do you feel like Roon offers over the Qobuz or Tidal native app user experience wise?



It curates the locally stored files as well as seamlessly integrating streaming services such as tidal / Qobuz.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> It curates the locally stored files as well as seamlessly integrating streaming services such as tidal / Qobuz.


Yeah, i know that part, but as someone with no files i find it kind of pointless. Especially with Tidal connect coming out soon. Though i am getting fed up with them gradually transforming everything in my playlist to MQA and deleting the non-MQA versions. I think even playing them as flac it might be doing some funny business.


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> Well what do you feel like Roon offers over the Qobuz or Tidal native app user experience wise?



This would be something I’d say would require testing it out for the 14 days to see if it’s for you.

For me, it allows my streamer to work seamless without any messing around. And can send to various endpoints like Apple TV, computers, and old iPods. Can group endpoints together to play in different sections of the house. And without a family account can play multiple streams from either Tidal or Qobuz at once at home. My only gripe would be no mobile solution but since been at home most of the year, not urgent.


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> This would be something I’d say would require testing it out for the 14 days to see if it’s for you.
> 
> For me, it allows my streamer to work seamless without any messing around. And can send to various endpoints like Apple TV, computers, and old iPods. Can group endpoints together to play in different sections of the house. And without a family account can play multiple streams from either Tidal or Qobuz at once at home. My only gripe would be no mobile solution but since been at home most of the year, not urgent.


It's probably not, none of that sounds useful to me. I'm just getting sick of Tidal but Qobuz has an even worse interface. Have high hopes for amazon ultra hd music


----------



## iamoneagain (Nov 3, 2020)

adrianm said:


> Yeah, i know that part, but as someone with no files i find it kind of pointless. Especially with Tidal connect coming out soon. Though i am getting fed up with them gradually transforming everything in my playlist to MQA and deleting the non-MQA versions. I think even playing them as flac it might be doing some funny business.



I lasted less than 2 days switching back Tidal. In roon I created a filter to show all the MQA albums and then looked for the cd versions. I only made it through to about 1/4 of those MQA albums to find over 50 albums only offered in MQA. I also found several Tidal albums only in AAC format. Was kind of shocked by that. Quobuz doesn’t have anything less the cd quality. So canceled Tidal and right back to Qobuz.

Qobuz app interface is terrible but doesn’t matter when used thru roon. So that’s the one plus to Tidal if using their app.


----------



## AndrewOld (Nov 3, 2020)

sm60 said:


> I used iPeng and Squeezebox extensively for about 10 years, but ever since I signed on to a lifetime membership with Roon, I view LMS and iPeng as quaint relics from yesteryear. My various Squeezebox Touch devices are in my garage waiting to be junked.
> 
> I agree about Roon having essentially *zero* effect on sound quality, unless you start fooling around with various lossy types of DSP. You can of course go silly with upsampling, and upsample everything to DSD 512, but all you're doing is increasing global warming by burning up CPU cycles. There's no evidence I know of that shows high bit rate DSD upsampling does anything to "improve" the sound. Mathematically, DSD conversion incurs a huge amount of ultrasonic noise, so there's in fact evidence to show you're making things worse by moving from PCM space to DSD space (noise wise, 24 bit 192Khz PCM has far lower noise than any DSD format).
> 
> Ignoring sonics, Roon transforms listening in ways I could have scarcely imagined 20 years ago. With a subscription to Qoubuz, I can now stream tens of thousands of high bit rate classical recordings, and every evening, I sample several new recordings, and can also read liner notes through the PDFs that Roon/Qoubuz make available. I can never imagine going back to iPeng or Squeezebox. It's like playing eight track tapes or digging out my old VCR or Betamax!


Yep, I’m coming from somewhere similar. LMS and a Touch got me going with streaming many, many years ago, and iPeng on an iPad put controlling it in my lap. Then I flipped to JRiver and JRemote because I could organise my own music the way I wanted more easily, and  control the audio path. Then Qobuz came along, a source of almost infinite riches, but with no remote app, and no way of integrating with my own rips and downloads. I put up with it and JRiver. The got into Roon a couple of years ago, and while it is not perfect there’s nothing that comes close. My own stuff and Qobuz in one library, with a good remote app, and rich data, album reviews, cd booklets. Excellent. And Qobuz just dropped their price, so I am a happy boy. As you say, it was  unimaginable level of experience 20 years ago  - thousands and thousands of above cd quality albums for less than 50p a day. And whether I control Roon from my phone, my iPad or my dedicated laptop, it sounds the same.
I’ve still got my Squeezebox Touch though, not that I use it anymore. But I’d put it up against a fancy Innuos server any day. No noisy disc drives, so no need for expensive SSDs. Not running any heavy duty server software, so no processing noise to suppress.  Sean Adams knew what he was doing.


----------



## SuperBurrito

Question for those of you who connect the Dave directly to an both a power amp (using the volume control) and a headphone amp.

When using the headphone amp, how do you have both volume controls set?  Do you keep the headphone amp volume control at a fixed level (maybe 50%) and then adjust volume through the Dave?  Thanks


----------



## JTbbb

SuperBurrito said:


> Question for those of you who connect the Dave directly to an both a power amp (using the volume control) and a headphone amp.
> 
> When using the headphone amp, how do you have both volume controls set?  Do you keep the headphone amp volume control at a fixed level (maybe 50%) and then adjust volume through the Dave?  Thanks



That’s exactly what I do with my headphone amp, but I’m more around the 11 O’clock position.


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

SuperBurrito said:


> Question for those of you who connect the Dave directly to an both a power amp (using the volume control) and a headphone amp.
> 
> When using the headphone amp, how do you have both volume controls set?  Do you keep the headphone amp volume control at a fixed level (maybe 50%) and then adjust volume through the Dave?  Thanks


I wouldn't do that; I would put Dave in Dac Mode and use the volume control on the Amp.


----------



## JTbbb

CRITICALSHOT said:


> I wouldn't do that; I would put Dave in Dac Mode and use the volume control on the Amp.



DAC mode and preamp mode go through the exact same circuitry. So it’s horses for courses. I choose preamp mode because I can’t physically operate the headphone volume but can operate the Dave remote.


----------



## SuperBurrito

CRITICALSHOT said:


> I wouldn't do that; I would put Dave in Dac Mode and use the volume control on the Amp.


Thanks.  But it could be very bad if someone turned on the power amp the morning after a headphone session if they accidentally forgot that the Dave is still in DAC mode!


----------



## CRITICALSHOT

JTbbb said:


> DAC mode and preamp mode go through the exact same circuitry. So it’s horses for courses. I choose preamp mode because I can’t physically operate the headphone volume but can operate the Dave remote.


I did the same thing when running my Dave to my Audio Note Integrated; as I didn't want to have to get up to adjust the volume.  True it uses the same circuitry, but I in my particular application, DAC Mode sounded better.


----------



## Lgn3

Lgn3 said:


> I agree with all of the above but was just trying to isolate any software changes that could impact SQ because clearly changes to the control software only would not. Your analogy to the TV remote in a previous post nicely illustrated the point that using different control points with the same player software could not possibly effect SQ.





AndrewOld said:


> Why would lower latency necessarily be a good thing? The best filters on the M Scaler have the highest latency. High latency gives you the possibility of larger buffers filled more smoothly. The music on a hard drive has been there for quite possibly years. Low latency is only really important in some studio contexts, eg live playing - musicians want to hear what they are playing as soon as they play it.
> 
> But even if Innuos have changed the latency of playback, it is still hard verging on impossible to understand how playback imitated by iPeng could sound different from playback initiated by Squeezepad.





AndrewOld said:


> Yep, I’m coming from somewhere similar. LMS and a Touch got me going with streaming many, many years ago, and iPeng on an iPad put controlling it in my lap. Then I flipped to JRiver and JRemote because I could organise my own music the way I wanted more easily, and  control the audio path. Then Qobuz came along, a source of almost infinite riches, but with no remote app, and no way of integrating with my own rips and downloads. I put up with it and JRiver. The got into Roon a couple of years ago, and while it is not perfect there’s nothing that comes close. My own stuff and Qobuz in one library, with a good remote app, and rich data, album reviews, cd booklets. Excellent. And Qobuz just dropped their price, so I am a happy boy. As you say, it was  unimaginable level of experience 20 years ago  - thousands and thousands of above cd quality albums for less than 50p a day. And whether I control Roon from my phone, my iPad or my dedicated laptop, it sounds the same.
> I’ve still got my Squeezebox Touch though, not that I use it anymore. But I’d put it up against a fancy Innuos server any day. No noisy disc drives, so no need for expensive SSDs. Not running any heavy duty server software, so no processing noise to suppress.  Sean Adams knew what he was doing.


I also still have an SBT. Don't use it very often, there as a backup as much as anything but when I compared it to a home demo Aries G1 into Dave SQ was equally good. I love the fact that plugins are constantly developed and updated e.g. Qobuz integration with local library.


----------



## Kelee123

Has anyone run a Chord Dave directly into a powered speaker system?


----------



## AndrewOld (Nov 6, 2020)

Kelee123 said:


> Has anyone run a Chord Dave directly into a powered speaker system?


Yep, I run mine into active loudspeakers. ATC SCM50ASLTs.


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> Yep, I run mine into active loudspeakers. ATC SCM50ASLTs.



@Kelee123  Snap, I also run my Dave direct into ATC active speakers (SCM150ASL).  I just use cheap Belden 8760 XLR cabling and that works very well and with fantastic sound quality.


----------



## AndrewOld (Nov 6, 2020)

Triode User said:


> @Kelee123  Snap, I also run my Dave direct into ATC active speakers (SCM150ASL).  I just use cheap Belden 8760 XLR cabling and that works very well and with fantastic sound quality.


I’m not sure if you are using them with the grilles off, or just happen to have them off for the photo. In case it’s the former,  the grilles have a radiused edge and improve the diffraction behaviour of the cabinet edges. If you want to use them grilles off, ATC will make you some pro-surrounds - essentially a picture frame with no grill cloth  which just presses into place and gives the best diffraction performance. Like you, I use mine with nothing special cables - in my case Van Damme. I wonder how active speakers and XLR cables affect the ground loop/RF behaviour of the DAVE?


----------



## Triode User

AndrewOld said:


> I’m not sure if you are using them with the grilles off, or just happen to have them off for the photo. In case it’s the former,  the grilles have a radiused edge and improve the diffraction behaviour of the cabinet edges. If you want to use them grilles off, ATC will make you some pro-surrounds - essentially a picture frame with no grill cloth  which just presses into place and gives the best diffraction performance. Like you, I use mine with nothing special cables - in my case Van Damme. I wonder how active speakers and XLR cables affect the ground loop/RF behaviour of the DAVE?



Grilles were off just for photo. I always run with grilles in place.

I guess the actives are no different to the XLR connection from Dave to any other power amplifier?


----------



## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> Grilles were off just for photo. I always run with grilles in place.
> 
> I guess the actives are no different to the XLR connection from Dave to any other power amplifier?


Dunno, active speakers have an earth and mains connection (typically) at two places rather than the one of a power amp, and the cable runs are longer and the mains connections are likely further away so maybe there are more/different paths to earth and more potential loops. Don’t know enough about it really.


----------



## iamoneagain

adrianm said:


> Still don't know how come you prefer crossfeed 0.



I finally got around to testing this some more. I’m still find crossfeed 0 (off) sounds best with the Utopia’s. Everything is more solid with it off. It’s almost like there is a Hall effect with the other settings that gets stronger as you move to 3. And I don’t feel they add more depth. What they seem to do is push some of the sounds that would be close to me further away but the final depth is the same. So with off I get more sense of depth since I have some sounds right by my head and others further away vs everything pushed back a little. I feel immersed in music.

So remember this is with the Utopia’s with angled drivers and open design. Maybe something like Grado headphones, even though still open, would need crossfeed since drivers are not angled.  Or most close headphoness suffer from closed in feeing and crossfeed helps that. Curious what others with Utopia’s prefer.


----------



## moemoney

iamoneagain said:


> I finally got around to testing this some more. I’m still find crossfeed 0 (off) sounds best with the Utopia’s. Everything is more solid with it off. It’s almost like there is a Hall effect with the other settings that gets stronger as you move to 3. And I don’t feel they add more depth. What they seem to do is push some of the sounds that would be close to me further away but the final depth is the same. So with off I get more sense of depth since I have some sounds right by my head and others further away vs everything pushed back a little. I feel immersed in music.
> 
> So remember this is with the Utopia’s with angled drivers and open design. Maybe something like Grado headphones, even though still open, would need crossfeed since drivers are not angled.  Or most close headphoness suffer from closed in feeing and crossfeed helps that. Curious what others with Utopia’s prefer.


I have to cross feeds set to “one” with the late 60s early 70s recordings you would really notice it, especially those recordings with the lead singer may be exclusively on the left channel and the group is on the right channel or a certain instrument like the bass player will be on the right channel, and the other instruments on the left.


----------



## iamoneagain

moemoney said:


> I have to cross feeds set to “one” with the late 60s early 70s recordings you would really notice it, especially those recordings with the lead singer may be exclusively on the left channel and the group is on the right channel or a certain instrument like the bass player will be on the right channel, and the other instruments on the left.



That makes sense too. I used to see the use of crossfeed just for this type of music but then saw more people not used to headphones trying crossfeed for all their music. Also crossfeed has improved over the years.


----------



## Kelee123

*I haven't found a significant difference and finally left cross feed setting to 0 with my Audeze LCD-24 headphones. *


----------



## adrianm

iamoneagain said:


> I finally got around to testing this some more. I’m still find crossfeed 0 (off) sounds best with the Utopia’s. Everything is more solid with it off. It’s almost like there is a Hall effect with the other settings that gets stronger as you move to 3. And I don’t feel they add more depth. What they seem to do is push some of the sounds that would be close to me further away but the final depth is the same. So with off I get more sense of depth since I have some sounds right by my head and others further away vs everything pushed back a little. I feel immersed in music.
> 
> So remember this is with the Utopia’s with angled drivers and open design. Maybe something like Grado headphones, even though still open, would need crossfeed since drivers are not angled.  Or most close headphoness suffer from closed in feeing and crossfeed helps that. Curious what others with Utopia’s prefer.


The Z1R also have angled drivers, crossfeed just bleeds the channels ,which is what speakers/live music sounds like. After i got used to it, off it feels a bit unnatural. The center of the image is split in 2. 
   That said, with the bad optical cable and solo Dave, and with USB i also preferred 0 and heard things just the way you're describing them but after adding the m-scaler and a decent fitting cable the image is just as solid on 3 as it is on 0, depth and positioning are the same, it's just the center part of the image that i find more natural. Not sure what changed thing but i can't go back now.


----------



## alxw0w

I have a question about connecting Dave to drive directly passive speakers (my speakers are not efficient, anyway I want to try this as I remember having great effect when using TT2 directly to speaker).
Can I use RCA connectors on the back ? They suppose to be connected to the same output as headphone jack on the front, right ?
And what about volume/heat/power handling, can I listen for example at -3 for long period of time without worrying about any overheat/malfunction ?


----------



## HeeBroG

The RCA connectors are the only way to do it.
Some use RCA to banana/spade connector convertors but I had speaker cables made specifically for this purpose with RCA on the DAVE end and spades on the speaker end.
I listen at +5dB for prolonged periods without any issue with Blu2 connected. 
I believe standalone DAVE would max out at +3bB.


----------



## alxw0w

HeeBroG said:


> The RCA connectors are the only way to do it.
> Some use RCA to banana/spade connector convertors but I had speaker cables made specifically for this purpose with RCA on the DAVE end and spades on the speaker end.
> I listen at +5dB for prolonged periods without any issue with Blu2 connected.
> I believe standalone DAVE would max out at +3bB.


Yup this is exactly what I will do. Rca to banana cables.


----------



## rgs9200m

I have pair of powered KEF LS50s on my desk connected to the DAVE via the RCA outputs on the DAVE. Sounds great. Very high-endy. For convenience, I use a little Schiit SYS passive volume control in the signal path to control the volume. It probably degrades the sound a bit but it's so convenient I can't live without it.
https://www.schiit.com/products/sys


----------



## MatW

rgs9200m said:


> I have pair of powered KEF LS50s on my desk connected to the DAVE via the RCA outputs on the DAVE. Sounds great. Very high-endy. For convenience, I use a little Schiit SYS passive volume control in the signal path to control the volume. It probably degrades the sound a bit but it's so convenient I can't live without it.
> https://www.schiit.com/products/sys


Interesting. I have the lsx, but they don't have rca in. Why the volume control, why not use the Dave or the kef controls, can you please elaborate?


----------



## MrCypruz

rgs9200m said:


> I have pair of powered KEF LS50s on my desk connected to the DAVE via the RCA outputs on the DAVE. Sounds great. Very high-endy. For convenience, I use a little Schiit SYS passive volume control in the signal path to control the volume. It probably degrades the sound a bit but it's so convenient I can't live without it.
> https://www.schiit.com/products/sys


Just curious...why don’t you use the speakers to control the volume since they’re active? Is it because of a “hot” signal coming from the Dave?


----------



## MrCypruz

MatW said:


> Interesting. I have the lsx, but they don't have rca in. Why the volume control, why not use the Dave or the kef controls, can you please elaborate?


If you have a M Scaler, you can use the optical output and it would be feeding the LSX with 192 KHz sample rate if I’m not mistaken. It will probably yield better results and higher sound quality than streaming directly from the speakers. Give it a shot and report back.


----------



## MatW

MrCypruz said:


> If you have a M Scaler, you can use the optical output and it would be feeding the LSX with 192 KHz sample rate if I’m not mistaken. It will probably yield better results and higher sound quality than streaming directly from the speakers. Give it a shot and report back.


Interesting suggestion. I currently stream Roon to the LSX. Going through the M scaler is an interesting alternative, but the signal would still be going through the LSX's internal DAC. I would like to use the Dave as a DAC, but the LSX only has a single AUX input. Feeding that from an SP2000 for example did not work, lots of crackling and low volume. Anyway, thanks for the suggestion, I'll give it a shot.


----------



## alxw0w

MatW said:


> Interesting suggestion. I currently stream Roon to the LSX. Going through the M scaler is an interesting alternative, but the signal would still be going through the LSX's internal DAC. I would like to use the Dave as a DAC, but the LSX only has a single AUX input. Feeding that from an SP2000 for example did not work, lots of crackling and low volume. Anyway, thanks for the suggestion, I'll give it a shot.


But I'm guessing that analog input on lsx is digitized. So in my opinion it's better to use its optical in.


----------



## MatW

alxw0w said:


> But I'm guessing that analog input on lsx is digitized. So in my opinion it's better to use its optical in.


Yes, that could well be, and would explain why it has not worked for me. I am intrigued why it does apparently work with the LS50, as mentioned in a post above.


----------



## Ciggavelli

MatW said:


> Yes, that could well be, and would explain why it has not worked for me. I am intrigued why it does apparently work with the LS50, as mentioned in a post above.


I have the LS50w. Even going in analog, the ls50w still uses its internal dac. I read up on it, apparently it’s related to the speakers use of DSP (which can’t be disabled)


----------



## adrianm

MatW said:


> Yes, that could well be, and would explain why it has not worked for me. I am intrigued why it does apparently work with the LS50, as mentioned in a post above.


The LS50's aren't active speakers, as opposed to the W and LSX.


----------



## musickid

TT2/hms was quite forgiving of standard quality recordings. Dave isn't. Dave only really shines when the recording is of a high quality natural sound and uncompressed. As i continue to adjust to the sound of dave i find myself questioning some of my tidal/qobuz favourite albums in roon. It's turning into quite an adventure and not just a question of plug and play as i thought it would be with dave. With high quality recordings dave is doing great things i didn't hear with mTT2. I think that explains things in the clearest way possible. I wonder how much of the mixed feedback is in fact to do with the quality of recordings and not what adding the mscaler does or doesn't do. For me it is crystal clear the mscaler immediately improved H2 and TT2 and so it follows it must do the same with dave.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

Hi All,
For hard to drive headphones i.e. Susvara, Abyss 1266's etc., has anybody tried or own a high powered Headphone Amp that takes little to nothing away from the characteristics of the DAVE i.e. it's transparency etc. ?


----------



## JTbbb

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> Hi All,
> For hard to drive headphones i.e. Susvara, Abyss 1266's etc., has anybody tried or own a high powered Headphone Amp that takes little to nothing away from the characteristics of the DAVE i.e. it's transparency etc. ?



Hello there, I can certainly say it is possible to add an amplifier that will not take away the characteristics of DAVE. I haven’t quite gone down the road of high power, as I don’t own particularly hard to drive headphones. But what I have done is gone down the road of a fairly high end tube amplifier and IMO it hasn’t taken anything away from DAVE.


----------



## simorag

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> Hi All,
> For hard to drive headphones i.e. Susvara, Abyss 1266's etc., has anybody tried or own a high powered Headphone Amp that takes little to nothing away from the characteristics of the DAVE i.e. it's transparency etc. ?



Hi, I had the same dilemma over the last couple of years, and spent (read: enjoyed) much time by trying companion amplifiers to the DAVE to drive the AB-1266 at its best with minimal loss of that magical transparency the DAVE direct drive delivers.

I had some success with the XI Audio Formula S + Powerman combo (see here), but still used to go back and forth between DAVE and the amp depending on genres, recordings, mood, etc., then ultimately moved to my current Riviera AIC-10 amplifier (see here).

In between, among the several amplifiers I tried, I found the most transparent ones were the Simaudio Moon 600i and the NAGRA Classic INT, both being 100W+ speaker amplifiers.

Among high power headphone amps, the most transparent I tried were the VIVA Egoista (yes, a tube amp), which I liked very much, and the Headamp GSX-Mk2, which I found a touch lean / bright for my tastes and in my chain.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

JTbbb said:


> Hello there, I can certainly say it is possible to add an amplifier that will not take away the characteristics of DAVE. I haven’t quite gone down the road of high power, as I don’t own particularly hard to drive headphones. But what I have done is gone down the road of a fairly high end tube amplifier and IMO it hasn’t taken anything away from DAVE.


Hi JTbbb,  Thank you for your reply.   Much appreciated.  
Which "fairly high end tube amplifier" are you using ?


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

simorag said:


> Hi, I had the same dilemma over the last couple of years, and spent (read: enjoyed) much time by trying companion amplifiers to the DAVE to drive the AB-1266 at its best with minimal loss of that magical transparency the DAVE direct drive delivers.
> 
> I had some success with the XI Audio Formula S + Powerman combo (see here), but still used to go back and forth between DAVE and the amp depending on genres, recordings, mood, etc., then ultimately moved to my current Riviera AIC-10 amplifier (see here).
> 
> ...


Hi simorag for your comprehensive reply.   Very much appreciated. 

I have been looking at the following Headphone Amps to drive the Abyss 1266 and HiFiman Susvara ;
1) Trafomatic Audio Primavera
2) Woo Audio WA33
3) XI Audio Formula S + Powerman combo
4) Trafomatic Audio Head 2 

I was also looking in detail at both the Viva Audio Egoista 845 and 2a3 Headphone Amps and was seriously considering a second hand 845 currently advertised on Head-Fi.org.  However from watching one of the Abyss Youtube videos over weekend gone, they stated that they had heard horror stories about people's 1266's frying from a malfunction of the 845 as there is no safety mechanism for the 845 to stop any high power surges going ti the headphones and that the 845 is basically a speak amp turned into a Headphone Amp.


----------



## JTbbb

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> Hi JTbbb,  Thank you for your reply.   Much appreciated.
> Which "fairly high end tube amplifier" are you using ?



I‘ve got the Feliks Euforia AE, whether it could drive the headphones you are considering I don’t know. But one thing that is open to you if you end up with a tube amplifier, is the ability to change the tone, and more, of your amp by tube rolling. But be warned! This is a very addictive rabbit hole to go down.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

JTbbb said:


> I‘ve got the Feliks Euforia AE, whether it could drive the headphones you are considering I don’t know. But one thing that is open to you if you end up with a tube amplifier, is the ability to change the tone, and more, of your amp by tube rolling. But be warned! This is a very addictive rabbit hole to go down.


Thank you for your reply JTbbb.  Much appreciated.    I was looking at this Amp but not sure if it could run the Abyss 1266 or HiFiman Susvara to their full potential and if it would colour the transparency from DAVE. 
Yes I have owned, the Wood Audio WA3, WA22 and Headamp BHSE in the distant past, so know a little about tube rolling dangers ! lol


----------



## Mikey99

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> Hi simorag for your comprehensive reply.   Very much appreciated.
> 
> I have been looking at the following Headphone Amps to drive the Abyss 1266 and HiFiman Susvara ;
> 1) Trafomatic Audio Primavera
> ...


I saw the same video. Another Italian headphone amp to consider in this tier is the Riviera AIC-10.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

Mikey99 said:


> I saw the same video. Another Italian headphone amp to consider in this tier is the Riviera AIC-10.


Thank you Mikey99 for your reply.  Much appreciated.  I will look into the Riviera AIC-10 too.


----------



## saudio7

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> Hi All,
> For hard to drive headphones i.e. Susvara, Abyss 1266's etc., has anybody tried or own a high powered Headphone Amp that takes little to nothing away from the characteristics of the DAVE i.e. it's transparency etc. ?


Niimbus US4+, but I only checked with Susvara, this was really good synergy.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

saudio7 said:


> Niimbus US4+, but I only checked with Susvara, this was really good synergy.


Thank you saudio7 for your reply and feedback.   Much appreciated.


----------



## Lgn3 (Nov 17, 2020)

musickid said:


> TT2/hms was quite forgiving of standard quality recordings. Dave isn't. Dave only really shines when the recording is of a high quality natural sound and uncompressed. As i continue to adjust to the sound of dave i find myself questioning some of my tidal/qobuz favourite albums in roon. It's turning into quite an adventure and not just a question of plug and play as i thought it would be with dave. With high quality recordings dave is doing great things i didn't hear with mTT2. I think that explains things in the clearest way possible. I wonder how much of the mixed feedback is in fact to do with the quality of recordings and not what adding the mscaler does or doesn't do. For me it is crystal clear the mscaler immediately improved H2 and TT2 and so it follows it must do the same with dave.





musickid said:


> TT2/hms was quite forgiving of standard quality recordings. Dave isn't. Dave only really shines when the recording is of a high quality natural sound and uncompressed. As i continue to adjust to the sound of dave i find myself questioning some of my tidal/qobuz favourite albums in roon. It's turning into quite an adventure and not just a question of plug and play as i thought it would be with dave. With high quality recordings dave is doing great things i didn't hear with mTT2. I think that explains things in the clearest way possible. I wonder how much of the mixed feedback is in fact to do with the quality of recordings and not what adding the mscaler does or doesn't do. For me it is crystal clear the mscaler immediately improved H2 and TT2 and so it follows it must do the same with dave.



Apologies if I am misquoting him but I seem to remember @Rob Watts  saying that TT2/HMS is the more musical whilst DAVE is the more transparent of the two.


----------



## moemoney

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> Thank you for your reply JTbbb.  Much appreciated.    I was looking at this Amp but not sure if it could run the Abyss 1266 or HiFiman Susvara to their full potential and if it would colour the transparency from DAVE.
> Yes I have owned, the Wood Audio WA3, WA22 and Headamp BHSE in the distant past, so know a little about tube rolling dangers ! lol


I went from a Woo Audio WA22 to a WA5LE mainly for the upgrade in sound but also for the option if I do pick up the Susvara I'll have an amp. that can drive them well.


----------



## musickid

i look forward to adding hms to dave next year.


----------



## ekfc63

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> Hi All,
> For hard to drive headphones i.e. Susvara, Abyss 1266's etc., has anybody tried or own a high powered Headphone Amp that takes little to nothing away from the characteristics of the DAVE i.e. it's transparency etc. ?



I was running 1266TC with Dave and thought it sounded fine, but reading this forum and other articles online (audiobacon's in particular https://audiobacon.net/2016/04/15/chord-dave-review-project-evad-evaluation-dave/4/) left me with a nagging doubt as to whether I was maxing out the 1266's performance. I ended up with a Formula S / Powerman and although there is a slight loss of transparency, adding the amp has definitely elevated the sound overall.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

ekfc63 said:


> I was running 1266TC with Dave and thought it sounded fine, but reading this forum and other articles online (audiobacon's in particular https://audiobacon.net/2016/04/15/chord-dave-review-project-evad-evaluation-dave/4/) left me with a nagging doubt as to whether I was maxing out the 1266's performance. I ended up with a Formula S / Powerman and although there is a slight loss of transparency, adding the amp has definitely elevated the sound overall.


Thank you ekfc63 for your reply and feedback.  Much appreciated.   
Did you also consider any tube amps prior to buying your Formula S to power your 1266 TC's ?


----------



## ekfc63 (Dec 3, 2020)

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> Thank you ekfc63 for your reply and feedback.  Much appreciated.
> Did you also consider any tube amps prior to buying your Formula S to power your 1266 TC's ?



I had an ALO Studio Six that I was using with my Focal Utopias, but it didn't have enough jam to drive the TCs which was a real shame since I just loved it.  At the dealers I also tried the Simaudio 430 which I could have happily lived with.


----------



## jlbrach

ekfc63 said:


> I was running 1266TC with Dave and thought it sounded fine, but reading this forum and other articles online (audiobacon's in particular https://audiobacon.net/2016/04/15/chord-dave-review-project-evad-evaluation-dave/4/) left me with a nagging doubt as to whether I was maxing out the 1266's performance. I ended up with a Formula S / Powerman and although there is a slight loss of transparency, adding the amp has definitely elevated the sound overall.


In theory it would be better to be able to listen straight from the dave without an external amp but with the likes of susvara or abyss tc it isnt possible....I tried but in the end realized that listening with the formula s/powerman simply takes the TC or susvara to the next level...the formula s/powerman is an extraordinary amp IMHO and the grunt and increased soundstage one gets is well worth whatever marginal loss of transparency there might be


----------



## stemiki

These days I have read the whole thread, over a thousand pages, and since an updated model is not on the way, I have decided to sell my current dac and switch to the DAVE. I better stop reading the forums and ask for advice from experienced friends (simorag)!


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

stemiki said:


> These days I have read the whole thread, over a thousand pages, and since an updated model is not on the way, I have decided to sell my current dac and switch to the DAVE. I better stop reading the forums and ask for advice from experienced friends (simorag)!


You won't regret it.   It's superb !


----------



## bluecar

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> Hi All,
> For hard to drive headphones i.e. Susvara, Abyss 1266's etc., has anybody tried or own a high powered Headphone Amp that takes little to nothing away from the characteristics of the DAVE i.e. it's transparency etc. ?



I've got mine set up with a Benchmark HPA-4 driving Focal Utopia's via balanced connection. The HPA does a great job - takes away nothing, but adds plenty of power and control. I


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

bluecar said:


> I've got mine set up with a Benchmark HPA-4 driving Focal Utopia's via balanced connection. The HPA does a great job - takes away nothing, but adds plenty of power and control. I


Thank you bluecar for your feedback.  Much appreciated.


----------



## Malcyg (Nov 23, 2020)

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> Thank you ekfc63 for your reply and feedback.  Much appreciated.
> Did you also consider any tube amps prior to buying your Formula S to power your 1266 TC's ?



Most people seem to favour balanced output from Dave for some reason however, if you wish to preserve maximum transparency, you should at least try RCA. I have tried a number of times over the years that I have owned Dave and always draw the same conclusion that RCA provides superior transparency to balanced connection, both when driving a power amp into speakers or a headphone amp. Rob Watts has stated this to be the case himself, but one should always test for themselves to determine what works best with their gear and ears.

Edit - I have replied to the wrong post, but the intent is the same.


----------



## Uncle Monty

Ciggavelli said:


> This is gonna make some of you furious, but I’m not the only one who thinks the Innuos Phoenix reclocker helps to improve usb dac performance.
> 
> https://audiobacon.net/2020/09/08/innuos-phoenix-usb-reclocker-review/amp/
> 
> I use the reclocker in between my server and mDAVE, and I definitely think it brings about very noticeable improvements


I also read this review before then reading that Rob Watts apparently disagrees - don't know what to think, better get one on trial and see for myself, I suppose.


----------



## edwardsean

Uncle Monty said:


> I also read this review before then reading that Rob Watts apparently disagrees - don't know what to think, better get one on trial and see for myself, I suppose.



Jay's review reflects his characteristic enthusiasm for products he likes, and in this forum, we should keep in mind he is talking broadly. When asked about Dave specifically, Jay says he does find improvement but without elaborating.

I also like the Phoenix–a lot, but I don't find it quite as transformative with Dave. Nevertheless, for me, it is a case where, having invited it into my system, there is no way it is leaving. I think its benefits are probably due equally to the Sean Jacobs power supply and the actual reclocking/regenerating architecture. The digital side does what the reviews describe, but the SJ power supply adds a clean, analog fullness which is very welcome for Dave. (Also, it should be made clear that the Phoenix has nothing to do with the signal timing for Dave's masterclock. It is reclocking the USB data packets.)

Anyone interested should really have a listen for themselves to decide if the improvements are worth the high cost. However, it is hard to argue that the Dave is the one DAC that the Phoenix can't impact. Certainly the argument can be made _technically_, but for myself, I agree with Srajan Ebaen in his 6Moons review of the Phoenix:

"For those who'd invoke their DAC's galvanically isolated USB transceiver to claim no _possible_ use or need for such devices, I'll say that I haven't yet met a USB DAC which didn't benefit from an external reclocker." 

If you've already read Jay's and Darko's reviews, Srajan's review, as well as Dawid Grzyb's at HiFiKnights, are well worth reading. 

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/innuos2/
http://hifiknights.com/reviews/accessories/innuos-phoenixusb/


----------



## Malcyg

edwardsean said:


> Jay's review reflects his characteristic enthusiasm for products he likes, and in this forum, we should keep in mind he is talking broadly. When asked about Dave specifically, Jay says he does find improvement but without elaborating.
> 
> I also like the Phoenix–a lot, but I don't find it quite as transformative with Dave. Nevertheless, for me, it is a case where, having invited it into my system, there is no way it is leaving. I think its benefits are probably due equally to the Sean Jacobs power supply and the actual reclocking/regenerating architecture. The digital side does what the reviews describe, but the SJ power supply adds a clean, analog fullness which is very welcome for Dave. (Also, it should be made clear that the Phoenix has nothing to do with the signal timing for Dave's masterclock. It is reclocking the USB data packets.)
> 
> ...



I agree with this and, in particular, with the reference to the ‘analogue fullness’ to which I would also add ‘warmth‘, but that is probably implied anyway. I don’t have the Phoenix but I do have a Statement, so it’s a similar thing. I recall discussing this 3 and a bit years ago with Roy/Romaz who had got himself a Zenith SE at the time and he was encouraging me to try the SOtM tX-Ulra and Master Clock with my own SE. Despite my slight scepticism and a definite reluctance to add boxes to my system, I tried it and it wasn’t the first nor the last time where I found beneficial improvement despite being contrary to the prevailing popular wisdom.


----------



## ZappaMan

AndrewOld said:


> I will say it again. The two apps you are running on your iPad or whatever to control LMS have nothing to do with the sound. They are not in the signal path. They just control what is played. You can prove this. Play something and turn off your iPad. The music continues. There are setting in LMS to allow the app to control volume in LMS (which might degrade sound quality), but there are also settings to avoid using the volume control in LMS and I would imagine that’s what you have set. Same with Roon. What you are saying is akin to saying you have two remote controls for your tv, and you get a better picture with one than the other. I’m not saying Roon does not sound different to LMS, just that I find it hard to believe two different LMS control apps can produce a difference.


I heard the high rollers say, keeping any roon remote control open during playback has negative impact, as the server/remote control become tightly bound to exchange metrics about current tract/position/etc and this has a material impact on the server/end point.


----------



## musickid

There is no physical connection between a roon remote and a roon server. It's getting silly now.


----------



## Progisus

musickid said:


> There is no physical connection between a roon remote and a roon server. It's getting silly now.


I’ve got 2 remotes open and there is no difference in the sound. Argh!


----------



## AndrewOld

musickid said:


> There is no physical connection between a roon remote and a roon server. It's getting silly now.


I worry that if I open the window it will blow the wireless waves across the room and cause Rf interference when they hit the wall, not to mention the increased cpu workload. Also, I have discovered that using short file names for my music files sounds much better. Obviously you need a revealing system to hear this.


----------



## ZappaMan

Honestly, the logic is thus, when the remote is open, the server needs to tell it at least every second, what position in the track is current etc. so thats additional processes on the server to do that communication.

I’m not saying I’ve observed this but the high rollers do say it.


----------



## AndrewOld

ZappaMan said:


> Honestly, the logic is thus, when the remote is open, the server needs to tell it at least every second, what position in the track is current etc. so thats additional processes on the server to do that communication.
> 
> I’m not saying I’ve observed this but the high rollers do say it.


You mean there is an audible degradation of the sound every second? Lasting how long?


----------



## miketlse

AndrewOld said:


> I worry that if I open the window it will blow the wireless waves across the room and cause Rf interference when they hit the wall, not to mention the increased cpu workload. Also, I have discovered that using short file names for my music files sounds much better. Obviously you need a revealing system to hear this.


I sense your tongue is firmly in your cheek. 

You really should try and create a spoof audiophile thread, and get the sound scientists, and audiophiles arguing about topics. However we do already have the Sound Science thread for that.

'if I open the window it will blow the wireless waves across the room' - I think you would need to warp spacetime to deflect the radio waves enough, and without a nearby black hole to do the job, the likelihood must be vanishingly small, but I am sure that some audiophiles will claim that they could detect a change.
If you open the window, and let cooler air into the room, then that changes the air density, and how the sound travels through the air. It wouldn't surprise me if some audiophiles who use speakers, will claim that there is a 'night and day' difference in what they hear, depending on whether a window is open.

'Obviously you need a revealing system to hear this' LOL
Sadly this is the 'fall back position' for some audiophiles, when their opinions are challenged.


----------



## ZappaMan

AndrewOld said:


> You mean there is an audible degradation of the sound every second? Lasting how long?


Andrew, what I mean is, the server is operating an additional sub process to manage the ongoing negotiation with the remote control around the current state of the playback. 
that sub process can be seen to be detrimental to the main process of processing the audio.
You can argue about this or that, but it’s conceivable that this could result in a change to the sound quality, unless of course you only value your own ideas and everyone else’s deserve to be shat on.


----------



## miketlse

ZappaMan said:


> Andrew, what I mean is, the server is operating an additional sub process to manage the ongoing negotiation with the remote control around the current state of the playback.
> that sub process can be seen to be detrimental to the main process of processing the audio.
> You can argue about this or that, but it’s conceivable that this could result in a change to the sound quality, unless of course you only value your own ideas and everyone else’s deserve to be shat on.


Basically you are claiming that a server CPU, running at 3,000,000,000 clock cycles a second, is greatly detrimentally affected by the few hundred cycles needed to manage the ROON synchronisation.
High rollers being able to conceive an idea, is not the same as them producing verifiable measurements that prove the cause & effect behind the claim.


----------



## ZappaMan

miketlse said:


> Basically you are claiming that a server CPU, running at 3,000,000,000 clock cycles a second, is greatly detrimentally affected by the few hundred cycles needed to manage the ROON synchronisation.
> High rollers being able to conceive an idea, is not the same as them producing verifiable measurements that prove the cause & effect behind the claim.


Can you provide any reference for these numbers? You’re both pulling a large number and a small number out of your hole.
Computers are powerful, and can do many things, but if the software isn’t properly orchestrating the different threads, then it could have an impact.


----------



## miketlse

ZappaMan said:


> Can you provide any reference for these numbers? You’re both pulling a large number and a small number out of your hole.
> Computers are powerful, and can do many things, but if the software isn’t properly orchestrating the different threads, then it could have an impact.


PC CPUs reached a clock speed of 4GHz over 20 years ago.
I used 3GHz because it is a more conservative number.

You made the claim that the sub-process can change the sound quality.
It is your responsibility to prove your claim, not mine to prove why the claim seems far-fetched or absurd.


----------



## Progisus

I was a bit bored this afternoon. hehe I just changed my phones from utopia to 800s for the afternoon. I can guarantee there was a sound difference. But a better one?


----------



## ZappaMan

miketlse said:


> PC CPUs reached a clock speed of 4GHz over 20 years ago.
> I used 3GHz because it is a more conservative number.
> 
> You made the claim that the sub-process can change the sound quality.
> It is your responsibility to prove your claim, not mine to prove why the claim seems far-fetched or absurd.


No I said, others report it makes a difference to them and explained the reason why. YOU then stated the cycles that the server would use to communicate to the remote - IN AN OVERLY SIMPLISTIC PULLING NUMBERS OUT OF YOUR HOLE WAY. 
I see your not going to produce those numbers, and as we are in the Dave thread, I insist you delete your misleading post, mentioned above.
Referencing Carl Sagan does nothing to help your sorry ass argument.


----------



## miketlse

ZappaMan said:


> No I said, others report it makes a difference to them and explained the reason why. YOU then stated the cycles that the server would use to communicate to the remote - IN AN OVERLY SIMPLISTIC PULLING NUMBERS OUT OF YOUR HOLE WAY.
> I see your not going to produce those numbers, and as we are in the Dave thread, I insist you delete your misleading post, mentioned above.
> Referencing Carl Sagan does nothing to help your sorry ass argument.


If the CPU is running at 3GHz, and just 1% of those cycles were needed to maintain ROON synchronisation, that would be 30,000,000 clock cycles.
I struggle to understand how you would need even 1,000,000 clock cycles, to just send a simple command from Roon to the remote, and then receive the response.
Even 1,000,000 clock cycles would represent just 1/30 of one percent of the CPU workload.

Consequently it is an extraordinary claim that this small workload affects the sound quality.
I believe that is justified for me to ask for extraordinary evidence.

My post is not misleading - it is challenging the extraordinary claim that has been posted.


----------



## ZappaMan

miketlse said:


> If the CPU is running at 3GHz, and just 1% of those cycles were needed to maintain ROON synchronisation, that would be 30,000,000 clock cycles.
> I struggle to understand how you would need even 1,000,000 clock cycles, to just send a simple command from Roon to the remote, and then receive the response.
> Even 1,000,000 clock cycles would represent just 1/30 of one percent of the CPU workload.
> 
> ...


My names is mike, and I’ve been reduced to making straw man arguments around cpu cycles.
If only I had of opened my mind to others experiences instead of indulging myself in my narcissistic belief, that only my experiences are valid.


----------



## Lgn3

ZappaMan said:


> I heard the high rollers say, keeping any roon remote control open during playback has negative impact, as the server/remote control become tightly bound to exchange metrics about current tract/position/etc and this has a material impact on the server/end point.



Two ways to look at this I suppose. You have a hypothesis, test it through a rigorous double blind trial, submit the results to be peer reviewed or then again just take the word of a high roller and drink some disinfectant.


----------



## AndrewOld

ZappaMan said:


> Andrew, what I mean is, the server is operating an additional sub process to manage the ongoing negotiation with the remote control around the current state of the playback.
> that sub process can be seen to be detrimental to the main process of processing the audio.
> You can argue about this or that, but it’s conceivable that this could result in a change to the sound quality, unless of course you only value your own ideas and everyone else’s deserve to be shat on.


Firstly I accept that such a thing is conceivable because you, at least, have conceived it. But I don’t accept that it is likely.  It is not **** on your point of view to say that. The elapsed time on Roon Remote updates every second. If what you say is true, and updating the elapsed time on the control point degrades the sound, then you should hear that degradation every second, for a very brief instant of time. Do you? What does it sound like? If the server is connected to the endpoint wirelessly, how does this claimed degradation reach the endpoint when all the server is doing is sending packets of information? These are all reasonable questions. If I were to make a list of all the things that “might” affect my music, your proposition would be very close to the bottom.


----------



## miketlse

ZappaMan said:


> My names is mike, and I’ve been reduced to making straw man arguments around cpu cycles.
> If only I had of opened my mind to others experiences instead of indulging myself in my narcissistic belief, that only my experiences are valid.


You cannot provide one single point of evidence why the claim is true - so you adopt the defence of insulting the person who has challenged the claim.
No point discussing further with you.


----------



## ZappaMan

It’s not my proposition. This isn’t science. This is a bit of fun. Calling for the scientific principle to be followed is surely as ludicrous as anything a high roller might say.
Be sceptical of course, all I’m saying is there are some people who say it degrades sq, it could be with roon, it could be with other music server software. 
I think it’s plausible, as I work on multi threaded software, anything’s possible.


----------



## ZappaMan

miketlse said:


> You cannot provide one single point of evidence why the claim is true - so you adopt the defence of insulting the person who has challenged the claim.
> No point discussing further with you.


Why should I cite evidence because I report what other people say they’ve experienced?
Your a third league bully to throw around your numbers to make me back down from a statement, that you can’t actually criticize, because all I said is, some other people say ...


----------



## AndrewOld

Every time you receive an email your hifi sounds worse because the extra processes on your router consume cpu cycles on your network.


----------



## ZappaMan

AndrewOld said:


> Every time you receive an email your hifi sounds worse because the extra processes on your router consume cpu cycles on your network.


That’s why my music server is on a subnet lol. Ludites.


----------



## N Quarter

There are people on the Naim forum that say they can hear the difference between one side of Fraim (shelf) glass that the equipment sits on to the other side. One side will ding when you wrap it with your knuckle, the other side will donk. Also, they say you should disable any unused inputs on the Preamp, they degrade the sound when left on. Some of these claims are a little far fetched for me, but I have not done any testing personally.


----------



## AndrewOld

ZappaMan said:


> That’s why my music server is on a subnet lol. Ludites.


It’s all connected. Even someone posting on a butterfly forum in Brazil can affect your hifi, conceivably.


----------



## ZappaMan

AndrewOld said:


> It’s all connected. Even someone posting on a butterfly forum in Brazil can affect your hifi, conceivably.


But is your spacial awareness so bad, you don’t appreciate the difference between a butterfly in Brazil and your music server software operating additional process to support additional workload  ?


----------



## edwardsean

Thanks fellas, sincerely. This is a really fun exchange, and I needed it today.


----------



## ZappaMan

It’s all in good fun, mike....


----------



## doraymon

Caught into the madness of the Black Friday obsessive compulsive purchases, I downloaded from HD Tracks a 192/24 version of Macy Gray's "Stripped", produced by Chesky within their Binaural+ project.
In case you want to put a nice background while enjoying todays message exchange, I'd recommend this one.
I'm reaaalllly enjoying it.


----------



## alxw0w

I'm amazed how Dave is managing bad recordings. (harsh, compressed with sharp treble etc.)
Many of my music that was buried due to bad recordings actually I can listen it now and my ears don't hurt.
Don't get me wrong you still can hear that mix/mastering is far from perfect, but as I said, my ears don't hurt anymore 
For me it shows true transparency of Dave. I've never experienced anything like that.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

alxw0w said:


> I'm amazed how Dave is managing bad recordings. (harsh, compressed with sharp treble etc.)
> Many of my music that was buried due to bad recordings actually I can listen it now and my ears don't hurt.
> Don't get me wrong you still can hear that mix/mastering is far from perfect, but as I said, my ears don't hurt anymore
> For me it shows true transparency of Dave. I've never experienced anything like that.


Add the M Scaler....sit back....listen...and be amazed !


----------



## bluecar

alxw0w said:


> I'm amazed how Dave is managing bad recordings. (harsh, compressed with sharp treble etc.)
> Many of my music that was buried due to bad recordings actually I can listen it now and my ears don't hurt.
> Don't get me wrong you still can hear that mix/mastering is far from perfect, but as I said, my ears don't hurt anymore
> For me it shows true transparency of Dave. I've never experienced anything like that.


Quite, and one of the joys of a device like the DAVE is that recordings which we had resigned to the "crappy" bin, suddenly sound amazing in all their weird glory


----------



## MacedonianHero

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> Add the M Scaler....sit back....listen...and be amazed !



One of the things I love about the DAVE is how "un-digital" it sounds...not clinical without a hint of brightness...the M Scaler adds some of that back in, I prefer the DAVE without one.


----------



## alxw0w (Dec 2, 2020)

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> Add the M Scaler....sit back....listen...and be amazed !


Don't worry it's on my roadmap. I've already listened to Dave with M Scaler at my friends place - oh yes it was something.
btw. before Dave I had MTT2


----------



## JamieMcC

Is any one using their Dave as a pre into a Nelson Pass F4 or Aleph J/J2?

I've been thinking about building one  or the other of these Nelson Pass Amps for a couple of years. The Aleph J seems a safe option.

But very curious as how the Dave might get on with driving the F4.

Cheers


----------



## simorag

alxw0w said:


> Don't worry it's on my roadmap. I've already listened to Dave with M Scaler at my friends place - oh yeas it was something.
> btw. before Dave I had MTT2



Just to add a data point, I have also found the M Scaler as a significant improvement of my DAVE. I have read some other fellow users report back the HMS making DAVE sound leaner / brighter, but in my system and to my ears it has been totally the opposite, with a more relaxed (forcing hard myself not to use the 'analog' cliché), smoother, easy flowing sound.

Vocals and midrange in general have become more real and less brittle / mechanical (all in very relative terms of course, as the DAVE alone is _far _from being mechanical / brittle in isolation), and timbre / tonality is more fleshed out.

The magic of the HMS to me was how that kind of more naturalistic performance could be achieved toghether with a more detailed and insightful sound presentation, which is sometimes related to 'clinical' sounding gear.

Again YMMV, this is just my 2C.


----------



## audio_1

MacedonianHero said:


> One of the things I love about the DAVE is how "un-digital" it sounds...not clinical without a hint of brightness...the M Scaler adds some of that back in, I prefer the DAVE without one.


Get an Opto-DX. The Dave is even more "un-digital" with the Blu II and Opto DX than on its own. I have no bad harsh recordings anymore. All recordings sound great.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

simorag said:


> Just to add a data point, I have also found the M Scaler as a significant improvement of my DAVE. I have read some other fellow users report back the HMS making DAVE sound leaner / brighter, but in my system and to my ears it has been totally the opposite, with a more relaxed (forcing hard myself not to use the 'analog' cliché), smoother, easy flowing sound.
> 
> Vocals and midrange in general have become more real and less brittle / mechanical (all in very relative terms of course, as the DAVE alone is _far _from being mechanical / brittle in isolation), and timbre / tonality is more fleshed out.
> 
> ...


Exactly my experiences too with the M Scaler both with headphones and Speakers.    I also have two full Chord Choral Speaker Systems the DAVE and M Scaler are used in with top quality interconnects (including the Wave Storm BNC digital interconnects) so the system synergy is 100% as well.


----------



## edwardsean

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> Exactly my experiences too with the M Scaler both with headphones and Speakers.    I also have two full Chord Choral Speaker Systems the DAVE and M Scaler are used in with top quality interconnects (including the Wave Storm BNC digital interconnects) so the system synergy is 100% as well.



Agree. Upscaling should make the Dave sound fuller and smoother as well as more detailed. I think any increased brightness and digital glare are artifacts of noise. The various noise mitigation strategies on this thread should give you the improvements without noticeable detractions.


----------



## number1sixerfan

edwardsean said:


> Agree. Upscaling should make the Dave sound fuller and smoother as well as more detailed. I think any increased brightness and digital glare are artifacts of noise. The various noise mitigation strategies on this thread should give you the improvements without noticeable detractions.



+1


----------



## Amberlamps

doraymon said:


> Caught into the madness of the Black Friday obsessive compulsive purchases, I downloaded from HD Tracks a 192/24 version of Macy Gray's "Stripped", produced by Chesky within their Binaural+ project.
> In case you want to put a nice background while enjoying todays message exchange, I'd recommend this one.
> I'm reaaalllly enjoying it.



One of my fav’s, it was recorded in an old church in newyork if I recall.


----------



## ZappaMan

See here, euphony, the gentlemans audio server software. 
see here how it allows configuration of song position update.
an open mind is your friend in this expanding body of knowledge and experimentation.
For those who hold bluster too close, only second rate audio reproduction awaits.


----------



## AndrewOld

ZappaMan said:


> See here, euphony, the gentlemans audio server software.
> see here how it allows configuration of song position update.
> an open mind is your friend in this expanding body of knowledge and experimentation.
> For those who hold bluster too close, only second rate audio reproduction awaits.


The word “potentially” is carrying a lot of weight in that screenshot.


----------



## ZappaMan

AndrewOld said:


> The word “potentially” is carrying a lot of weight in that screenshot.


Of course.


----------



## miketlse

AndrewOld said:


> The word “potentially” is carrying a lot of weight in that screenshot.


Yes indeed.
Similarly if an architect claims 'if we use this alloy, then potentially the bridge will not fall down', should people accept that claim as proof that the bridge design is safe?
 
I shall have to be careful, otherwise I shall be called closed-minded.


----------



## AndrewOld

ZappaMan said:


> Of course.


Did you type that post while you were listening to your hifi? If so, did the increased network traffic that occurred when you posted make your hifi sound worse?


----------



## ZappaMan

You are closed minded, you’ve been. Demonstrating that. It’s what happens to men as they get old.


----------



## AndrewOld

ZappaMan said:


> You are closed minded, you’ve been. Demonstrating that. It’s what happens to men as they get old.


I might be closed minded, and I am certainly old. You might be gullible and credulous. But  in fact I have demonstrated a very open mind to the possibilities you raise. I am am open-minded enough to believe that incredibly small and short bits of network traffic can impact the sound of your hifi. That’s why I asked you whether you can hear a degradation every second when the elapsed time on your control point is updated for example. If you can, how long does it last? The question is are you open-minded enough to consider the possibility that there is no degradation whatsoever?


----------



## Amberlamps

ZappaMan said:


> You are closed minded, you’ve been. Demonstrating that. It’s what happens to men as they get old.



I thought an enlarged prostrate was what happens to men when they get old, if it’s true, then I must have one, as I keep dribbling after taken the piss.

c wut i did there


----------



## AndrewOld

Amberlamps said:


> I thought an enlarged prostrate was what happens to men when they get old, if it’s true, then I must have one, as I keep dribbling after taken the piss.
> 
> c wut i did there


Every time you post, the increase in internet traffic makes everyone’s hifi sound worse. Potentially. Did you hear what I just did?


----------



## Amberlamps

AndrewOld said:


> Every time you post, the increase in internet traffic makes everyone’s hifi sound worse. Potentially. Did you hear what I just did?



I‘m sorry if my internet usage causes SQ problems, I was going to say that I shall stop, but.......having just got pure 1gigabit fibre to the premises broadband, I shall commence with operation roon remote post haste x 900mbit.


----------



## miketlse

AndrewOld said:


> Every time you post, the increase in internet traffic makes everyone’s hifi sound worse. Potentially. Did you hear what I just did?


It was potentially a 'night and day' impact, but I didn't have my hifi switched on at the time.

I will perform a different but related test tonight.
For years I have listened to various internet radio shows, and simultaneously followed the show facebook page, and commented every few minutes. At the same time I have been reading and posting on head-fi.
Listening with the Hugo 2, plus Aeon Flow Closed headphones (or sometimes Koss electrostats), I usually consider the internet radio is transmitting a near CD quality stream.
I shall listen as normal, but then try closing the browser, and just listening to the music stream.
This will test the claim that reducing the PC workload, will improve the music sound quality.

Of course following the principle of _reductio ad absurdum_ and reducing the PC workload to zero, by switching the PC off, should then result in an infinitely large increase in sound quality.


----------



## AndrewOld

miketlse said:


> It was potentially a 'night and day' impact, but I didn't have my hifi switched on at the time.
> 
> I will perform a different but related test tonight.
> For years I have listened to various internet radio shows, and simultaneously followed the show facebook page, and commented every few minutes. At the same time I have been reading and posting on head-fi.
> ...


It maybe that closing as many things as possible will firstly reduce the processing load on your brain, and allow you to become completely absorbed in the music.


----------



## miketlse

AndrewOld said:


> It maybe that closing as many things as possible will firstly reduce the processing load on your brain, and allow you to become completely absorbed in the music.


Yes, quite possible.

I rarely listen to music on its own - usually it is background music whilst i am on the PC, or reading etc.
Inevitably this means that my focus is rarely 100% on the music.


----------



## Lgn3 (Dec 4, 2020)

I rarely listen to music on its own - usually it is background music whilst i am on the PC, or reading etc.
Inevitably this means that my focus is rarely 100% on the music.
[/QUOTE]

I hope you all realise that someone out there has been reading all this banter and is now planning how to design and sell some ludicrously expensive products which address this "issue" ! 😀


----------



## miketlse

Lgn3 said:


> I rarely listen to music on its own - usually it is background music whilst i am on the PC, or reading etc.
> Inevitably this means that my focus is rarely 100% on the music.



I hope you all realise that someone out there has been reading all this banter and is now planning how to design and sell some ludicrously expensive products which address this "issue" ! 😀
[/QUOTE]
They wouldn't need to do much design. Just a short program that makes a button appear on the PC screen.
When the button is pressed, it does nothing, but expectation bias will cause owners to claim all sorts of 'night and day' improvements.
High rollers will happily spend $3k on the software, and then tell skeptics, that they are not open-minded.

Just this morning I was thinking of researching the realms of the placebo response, by designing a spoof expensive (say $5k) interconnect cable, and giving it the brand name of Placebo, and counting how many high rollers also claimed 'night and day' improvements.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

Has anybody had their DAVE (with and without an M Scaler) XLR balance connected to a Headamp GSX MK2 in order to use difficult to drive headphones like the Susvara and Abyss 1266's.   And if so, how did they sound ?.   Did you loose any of the DAVE's fantastic transparency and other great characters when using the GSX MK2 ?


----------



## jlbrach

the loss of transparency is more than made up for by the increased soundstage and grunt


----------



## miketlse

AndrewOld said:


> It maybe that closing as many things as possible will firstly reduce the processing load on your brain, and allow you to become completely absorbed in the music.


I didn't notice any change in sound quality, so maybe an interesting test will be to listen to the show again via mixcloud.
Certainly I posted tonight that one of the tracks had very good timbre on the double bass, so any improvement because of reduced CPU processing, has a high baseline to improve upon.


----------



## Amberlamps (Dec 5, 2020)

miketlse said:


> I didn't notice any change in sound quality, so maybe an interesting test will be to listen to the show again via mixcloud.
> Certainly I posted tonight that one of the tracks had very good timbre on the double bass, so any improvement because of reduced CPU processing, has a high baseline to improve upon.



There is a audio latency program for audio, I think it was called dpc latency checker os something like it. It tested the latency aspect of how fast your pc was at sending and receiving data and it showed you the results in a easy to read gui.

I found it, its Roon Remote Killed my Schiit

Anything in green is good.


----------



## penguin69

EndGameSearch said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> Have you recently changed any of the components within the Daves you are currently shipping?  Perhaps Chord changed to a different type of BNC input connectors?
> 
> ...



Hi all,

Resurrecting this one.

I have a similar problem, which has re-occurred after a routine unplugging and replugging the cables as part of a slight repositioning of my rig (I'm expecting a new amp next week). 

The problem is this: I get either a fairly quiet or a very loud pop (it varies) every few minutes when listening to dual BNC, either via an optical feed from my TV or an optical feed from Chromecast. If I plug the optical cable direct into the Dave, the problem goes way. For the record, the cables are good quality QED Toslinks.

I have surmised that my Dave or my M-Scaler seems extremely sensitive to cable positioning, but I have not got any further than that.

The problem first occurred when I got my M-Scaler (over a year ago), and I initially blamed it on the quality of the BNC cables that shipped with the M-Scaler. So I swapped that out this year for the Opto DX. I have had long periods where the new configuration works, so it's definitely not the Opto. Changing the dual BNC input on the Dave from 1+2 to 3+4 seemed to give a little bit of improvement, but I can't be sure of that and in any event it doesn't cure the problem entirely.

It's very, very frustrating to have $10K+ worth of kit from the same manufacturer which does not seem to inter-work consistently well.

Any thoughts or advice greatly appreciated, it's driving me nuts!

Thanks in advance.


----------



## ecwl

penguin69 said:


> I have a similar problem, which has re-occurred after a routine unplugging and replugging the cables as part of a slight repositioning of my rig (I'm expecting a new amp next week).
> 
> The problem is this: I get either a fairly quiet or a very loud pop (it varies) every few minutes when listening to dual BNC, either via an optical feed from my TV or an optical feed from Chromecast. If I plug the optical cable direct into the Dave, the problem goes way. For the record, the cables are good quality QED Toslinks.
> 
> ...


Yeah... Troubleshooting this sucks because there are often multiple possibilities. And I’ve run into these issues before even if the previous hookup works perfectly. I sometimes take my DAVE to Head-Fi meet so when I bring it back and re-hook it up, issues sometimes crop up.
1. You might have switched BNC 1&2/3&4 when you connect M-Scaler to DAVE. You need a channel test to make sure left is left and right is right
2. The Toslink plug of M-Scaler and DAVE are very small so sometimes finicky. It’s possible your Toslink cable wasn’t 100% into the M-Scaler socket and by chance it was 100% in the DAVE socket.
3. Do you have another source (non-optical) plugged into M-Scaler? It’s possible that with the re-positioning of the system, your USB or S/PDIF source has created a new ground loop that’s going into the M-Scaler so even when you’re listening to Toslink, the ground loop noise is causing pops the M-Scaler
4. It’s possible your Opto DX is the device creating the ground loop because the receiver end still has an electrical power supply that can be causing the pops
5. This is the worst one to trouble shoot because you need another Chord DAC... It is possible that M-Scaler is actually broken and is causing the pops. However, if you had the problems before and then it went completely away, and now the problem came back, it would be highly unlikely the problem is with the M-Scaler.

At least these are all the possibilities I have personally run into. That said, once I’ve troubleshooted them, I can always get the M-Scaler running 100% trouble-free for months if not years. But yes, the setup is a chore.


----------



## penguin69

Hey ecwl

Many thanks for the tips. 

Regarding 5: Good suggestion, I will try my dealer. In the past though, they have only had Dave's and HMS's come into the shop to order, so probably no dice here.
Regarding 4: I will switch Opto DX Receiver to a battery supply and retest. Great suggestion.
Regarding 3: No, the only sources I have plugged into the M-Scaler are optical sources.
Regarding 2: I've reconnected the optical cables multiple times at both ends, and tried 3 different cables - 2 high quality, one standard. It doesn't appear to make any difference.
Regarding 1: I wasn't aware that L and R channel was of importance. Could you perhaps provide a little more info here?

For the record, I have run some more tests this morning, feeding the M-Scaler with a low-res classical music source (240p Youtube) from the TV, just to rule out any concerns over source system bandwidth. The TV is connected to the router via an Ethernet cable, so wifi can't be the culprit. The results are the same, a quiet pop or alternatively a very loud pop, usually once every 10-20 minutes, but with no obvious pattern.

Cheers and thanks again for taking the time out to respond.

penguin69


----------



## miketlse

This post by @Amberlamps , raises the question in my mind, as to whether there is a latency issue, causing occasional breaks in the signal stream from the router to the TV.


----------



## doraymon

Amberlamps said:


> One of my fav’s, it was recorded in an old church in newyork if I recall.


Exactly.
I also love Amber Rubarth's "Sessions from the 17th ward", again from the Binaural+ series.
I have to say in the latter the voice of the singer is definitely positioned more forward, while in Macy Gray's album I feel her voice a bit further away and in my opinion too much.
Maybe just my impression anyway.

I think the DAVE was made for these albums. Spectacular.


----------



## ecwl

penguin69 said:


> Regarding 1: I wasn't aware that L and R channel was of importance. Could you perhaps provide a little more info here?


You just have to be careful that the correct dual BNC cables are going into the correct DAVE inputs. As in BNC1 out of M-Scaler should go into BNC 1/3 in of the DAVE and BNC 2 out of MScaler should go into BNC 2/4 in of the DAVE. If you switch the two cables, the left and right channels will be switched. But it can also affect the syncing which can sometimes cause the odd pops. It’s fairly easy to test if you have a test track that plays left channel first then the right channel.


----------



## sm60

Amberlamps said:


> There is a audio latency program for audio, I think it was called dpc latency checker os something like it. It tested the latency aspect of how fast your pc was at sending and receiving data and it showed you the results in a easy to read gui.
> 
> I found it, its Roon Remote Killed my Schiit
> 
> Anything in green is good.



When I got my Dave/Blu 2 a few months ago, I suffered through a series of annoying glitches, including distortion and popping sounds like you described. I also felt these bugs were completely unacceptable in a $10k+ digital front end. However, this is par for the course for high end audio, sadly, especially digital. I’ve owned dozens of high end digital front ends over the past 20+ years (dCS, Mark Levinson, Theta Digital, Auralic etc.). I have yet to find a high end digital audio product that performs reliably as advertised. My conclusion is that reliability is a lost cause In high end digital audio. Finally, I have gotten my Chord combo to perform acceptably after upgrading to the Wave Storm cables. I don’t use the Blu Mk2 transport at all. It is by far the worst CD transport I have yet experienced in 25+ years. It rarely plays a CD without distortion. I understand Chord has discontinued the Blu transport. I’m not surprised. I use a much more reliable massively built belt drive CD transport (CEC TL0), which works very well when connected to the M-scaler in the Blu Mk2. I hope the combo continues to work reliably, minus the Blu transport, but I’m not holding my breath.


----------



## jlbrach

my blu2 has been essentially flawless and the transport works perfectly as well


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

Both of my Chord Blu MK1's (one I bought brand new in 2014 with a beautiful custom chrome CD lid, the other second hand in 2016) have both worked without any problems too.


----------



## sm60

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> Both of my Chord Blu MK1's (one I bought brand new in 2014 with a beautiful custom chrome CD lid, the other second hand in 2016) have both worked without any problems too.


If your Blu transport works reliably, consider yourself lucky. From what my dealer tells me, they have a high failure rate, one reason Chord has discontinued making them. But I’m not singling out Chord here. Take dCS, another British boutique manufacturer of overpriced digital products. I owned their trio of digital front ends named after dead composers: Elgar DAC, Purcell upsampler and Verdi transport. If you think Chord has a complex hookup, the dCS trio required a PhD in theoretical physics to connect together with swaths of BNC and FireWire cables. dCS sourced their SACD transport from Sony, and boy was it unreliable. I sent it back twice to England twice to get it repaired, each time it took a few weeks to get fixed. It never was reliable. Chord sources its transports from Philips and ultimately boutique high end manufacturers are at the mercy of their source vendors. My CEC belt drive transport stopped working recently and fortunately it was a simple enough repair for someone like me who has been trained as an engineer. I opened it up and one of the belts had snapped. As luck would  have it, the US repair center for CEC is in the San Francisco Bay Area close to my house. I got a replacement belt and a spare one for future repairs as well, and the CEC is now working fine. I don’t care anyway for the Blu transport. It’s not in the same class as the CEC transport or the other high end ones I have owned, like the Esoteric. My dealer warned me to stay away from the Blu and get the M-scaler instead. But I liked the matching design of the two units and got the Chord stand as well (the older design, not the newer one). At some point I assume I’ll have to send the Blu back to England to get it fixed, assuming they still have spares for the transport, I know other manufacturers like Audio Research use the same Phillips transport, and carry a large set of spares to fix them down the road. I don’t know if Chord has the same bulletproof insurance policy of servicing anything they sold, even if it was decades earlier.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

sm60 said:


> If your Blu transport works reliably, consider yourself lucky. From what my dealer tells me, they have a high failure rate, one reason Chord has discontinued making them. But I’m not singling out Chord here. Take dCS, another British boutique manufacturer of overpriced digital products. I owned their trio of digital front ends named after dead composers: Elgar DAC, Purcell upsampler and Verdi transport. If you think Chord has a complex hookup, the dCS trio required a PhD in theoretical physics to connect together with swaths of BNC and FireWire cables. dCS sourced their SACD transport from Sony, and boy was it unreliable. I sent it back twice to England twice to get it repaired, each time it took a few weeks to get fixed. It never was reliable. Chord sources its transports from Philips and ultimately boutique high end manufacturers are at the mercy of their source vendors. My CEC belt drive transport stopped working recently and fortunately it was a simple enough repair for someone like me who has been trained as an engineer. I opened it up and one of the belts had snapped. As luck would  have it, the US repair center for CEC is in the San Francisco Bay Area close to my house. I got a replacement belt and a spare one for future repairs as well, and the CEC is now working fine. I don’t care anyway for the Blu transport. It’s not in the same class as the CEC transport or the other high end ones I have owned, like the Esoteric. My dealer warned me to stay away from the Blu and get the M-scaler instead. But I liked the matching design of the two units and got the Chord stand as well (the older design, not the newer one). At some point I assume I’ll have to send the Blu back to England to get it fixed, assuming they still have spares for the transport, I know other manufacturers like Audio Research use the same Phillips transport, and carry a large set of spares to fix them down the road. *I don’t know if Chord has the same bulletproof insurance policy of servicing anything they sold, even if it was decades earlier.*


I have had servicing and some minor repairs done for some of my older second hand Chord Choral units undertaken by Chord Electronics a couple of time over the last 5 or so years with no issues at all.   I have found their customers service and speedy turnaround to be excellent.


----------



## penguin69

Thanks for the replies on the 'popping' issue.

As part of my testing yesterday, I removed the Opto-DX and replaced it with the Chord stock BNC cables that came with the M-Scaler. I listened straight for six hours using the same source, at all resolutions, and no more popping. Hurrah.

However, the problem is absolutely NOT the Opto-DX. This has worked fine for months and up until I disconnected my system last week. Also, this same stock Chord cable was in place when I originally experienced the problems described, i.e. just after purchase of the M-Scaler.

In sum, I am pleased the problem has (temporarily?) gone away. However:
   1) Everyone now has to tiptoe around the house. And I am absolutely terrified that heavy breathing or moderate flatulence will disturb the cables and bring back the problem.
   2) I now have a great product, the Opto-DX, which is redundant because I am too afraid to change the working configuration.

I've had DM's in the past from others who have experienced this intermittent popping, so I know it is not a unique problem. Having ruled out the source and the cables being the issue, and having reconnected optical and BNC cables multiple times to make the problem go away, I have to conclude that the BNC connectors on one of my Chord devices are either very sensitive or slightly warped. (I suspect it's the M-Scaler as the problem was apparent with both Dual BNC inputs 1+2 and 3+4 on the Dave.)

If the problem comes back then I will contact Chord through my dealer.

Cheers
penguin69


----------



## AndrewOld

penguin69 said:


> Thanks for the replies on the 'popping' issue.
> 
> As part of my testing yesterday, I removed the Opto-DX and replaced it with the Chord stock BNC cables that came with the M-Scaler. I listened straight for six hours using the same source, at all resolutions, and no more popping. Hurrah.
> 
> ...


BNC connectors are perhaps more sensitive than many connectors, as they are sprung. And some of the BNC cables that Chord shipped were poor and could easily be provoked into losing contact by touching them. But you can get perfectly well made, fairly priced BNC leads from the likes of BlueJeans Cable. https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/digital-audio/index.htm


----------



## Ragnar-BY

For coaxial cable BNC connectors are technically superior to RCAs. BNCs have lock, 360 degree screen contact and controlled impedance.


----------



## ecwl

penguin69 said:


> However, the problem is absolutely NOT the Opto-DX.


I don’t think the problem will come back. There is a reason why I listed several things to try because all of them I have seen personally to cause the popping issue. So to say why I think you had popping issues, these are my guesses:
1) When you initially used the stock dual BNC cable, I suspect you weren’t using optical to feed your M-Scaler exclusively. So there is a ground loop somewhere from say your USB or S/PDIF source into the M-Scaler and the ground loop leakage current noise is causing the popping. Replacing that with the Opto DX would mean that the ground loop from your USB/ or S/PDIF source would go into the transmitter of the Opto DX and is isolated from M–Scaler so no more popping.

As for why now changing Opto-DX to stock dual BNC cables stopped the popping, the possibilities are:
1) When switching things around, suddenly the Opto-DX broke. Say a power surge to the receiver. (Although I think that’s highly unlikely)
2) When switching things around the power supply to the Receiver end of Opto-DX is now plugged into a different area compared to where you had your M-Scaler and DAVE power supply. So you’ve created a new ground loop between the Opto-DX receiver into M-Scaler and DAVE and the low level random noise this loop generates is what is causing the popping.

That said, I agree with your approach of not changing the dual BNC cables for now. If I am wrong and your M-Scaler truly is broken, after a month or so, you’ll find the popping returns with increasing frequency. If it’s not broken, you’ll find that you should be able to safely re-install Opto-DX assuming you don’t re-create the ground loop. You could try to power your Opto-DX Receiver end with batteries of sufficient watt and voltage to confirm that the Opto-DX is not broken. But I’d definitely wait a month on the stock dual BNC first. Especially if you’ve got a new amp coming that you want to enjoy trying out.


----------



## penguin69

Thanks again for the reply ecwl, I will take all that on board.


----------



## miketlse

penguin69 said:


> Thanks again for the reply ecwl, I will take all that on board.


I think there are quite a few posts on the DAVE, Blu2 and MScalar threads, about the dual BNC operating at the cutting edge, and being sensitive to the quality of the electrical connection created by the connectors.
There are plenty of posts recommending cables, and good connectors to use, to ensure a good quality connection.

In an ideal world, owners could use almost any cable, and get dual bnc to work.
In the real world, if owners are prepared to pay a lot of money for DAVE, Blu2 or MScaler, then I believe that they owe it to themselves to use cables with good quality connectors.
Anything less is just throwing money away.


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## DaveRedRef-III (Dec 9, 2020)

Going back many years, I had the good fortune (and privilege) to listen to a 44.1/16 'rip' taken directly from the master tape of Buddy Holly's 'True Love Ways' and played back through the Chord DAC64. I don't think I can over-state what I heard. It was 'the' seminal moment in a long history of Hifi listening for me and I was staggered tbh. Taking a simple direct rip seemed to have taken away all veils. It was like Buddy was brought to life 3 feet in front of me. Really brought to life. Like I could reach out and literally touch the man. It still sends shivers down me just thinking of that moment.

Though hifi has improved over the years I have not had an experience as profound as that one again. It probably spoiled me for the rest I guess.  Anyway I have since regarded True Love Ways as the definitive vocal recording in my collection and I have bought a number of remasterings looking for that holy (or Holly) grail. I have failed but enjoyed the experience. Finally, it was with a 'lot' of cynicism and a sense of almost betrayal that I listened to Abbey Road engineers recent recovery work and overlay of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra of that said track along with 11 other Buddy Holly tracks on a new 96/24 recording. My thoughts were 'should anybody be allowed to mess with these songs?' Well I have to eat humble pie here because I absolutely love this album. I think it brings a new slant on things and is a body of work in its own right. Its given me a new appreciation of Buddy's timeless works and despite the Holy Grail of True Love Ways still proving elusive its a work of true love for sure.

Just thought I would mention it.


----------



## F208Frank (Dec 10, 2020)

Guys, I had my DAVE for about half a year or so only, and the bottom right side of my display screen on the DAVE just stopped working altogether. Inside the circular main display, there are 4 square sections, my bottom right section is completely off while the other 3 square sections (top 2, and bottom left) are all displaying properly.

Anyone else run into this issue, and I am assuming the warranty will be a HUGE hassle for both myself and the dealer I purchased from correct?

Update: I tried turning off the power button on the rear of the DAVE (after turning DAVE off from remote first) and now when turning the device back on, the screen will not display and the DAVE will not turn on period.

Any idea what is going on and anyone else in similar situation? I plugged in my DAVE the day I unboxed and never touched it/moved it ever since so this is quite alarming for a 6 months old product.

If any fellow DAVE owners can give some advice, please share, appreciated in advance.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

F208Frank said:


> Guys, I had my DAVE for about half a year or so only, and the bottom right side of my display screen on the DAVE just stopped working altogether. Inside the circular main display, there are 4 square sections, my bottom right section is completely off while the other 3 square sections (top 2, and bottom left) are all displaying properly.
> 
> Anyone else run into this issue, and I am assuming the warranty will be a HUGE hassle for both myself and the dealer I purchased from correct?
> 
> ...


I would send an email to your Dealer to contact Chord to resolve this problem.


----------



## JTbbb

F208Frank said:


> Guys, I had my DAVE for about half a year or so only, and the bottom right side of my display screen on the DAVE just stopped working altogether. Inside the circular main display, there are 4 square sections, my bottom right section is completely off while the other 3 square sections (top 2, and bottom left) are all displaying properly.
> 
> Anyone else run into this issue, and I am assuming the warranty will be a HUGE hassle for both myself and the dealer I purchased from correct?
> 
> ...



I know this is going to sound bizarre, but it has worked for me with other equipment. Turn off at the remote, turn the switch off at the back, and unplug the power lead from the back of DAVE. Leave some minutes and try again.


----------



## ecwl

F208Frank said:


> Anyone else run into this issue, and I am assuming the warranty will be a HUGE hassle for both myself and the dealer I purchased from correct?


Warranty repairs were pretty straightforward from Chord, my dealer and the former US/Canadian distributor Bluebird. So if it’s truly broken, I don’t think it’ll be as big of a hassle as you think. But then yes, whenever anything needs warranty repair, it’s a hassle.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

ecwl said:


> Warranty repairs were pretty straightforward from Chord, my dealer and the former US/Canadian distributor Bluebird. So if it’s truly broken, I don’t think it’ll be as big of a hassle as you think. But then yes, whenever anything needs warranty repair, it’s a hassle.


Whether you are covered by Chord or Dealer warranty or not, at the end of the day only Chord Electronics will be able to fix your DAVE particularly if it's a digital / chip / programme issue.    If I was you, I would plan to have your DAVE returned back to Chord Electronics in the UK ASAP to fix it if you already have tried turning unit off then on again etc. as JTbbb mentioned earlier and it hasn't solved the issue.


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## Bonesy Jonesy

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> Whether you are covered by Chord or Dealer warranty or not, at the end of the day only Chord Electronics will be able to fix your DAVE particularly if it's a digital / chip / programme issue.    If I was you, I would plan to have your DAVE returned back to Chord Electronics in the UK ASAP to fix it if you already have tried turning unit off then on again etc. as JTbbb mentioned earlier and it hasn't solved the issue.


In the interim, send your Dealer an email explaining the problem in detail to send onto Chord and see if Chord return with a reply that may fix your DAVE without you having to send it back to them.


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## Mikey99

Looking at these recent posts, it brings the following to mind. I have seven Chord products, and three of them have had to go back for repairs, including a Dave. Two had the problems out of the box. Meanwhile I have not had significant issues with other equipment. What have others experienced?


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## ubs28 (Dec 10, 2020)

The only problems I had was software / firmware issues of the Poly and the 2Go which also uses old tech Wifi that cannot make use of my 10Gbits high speed internet at home.

But all the Chord DAC’s have worked fine, never had a problem with them.


----------



## miketlse

F208Frank said:


> Guys, I had my DAVE for about half a year or so only, and the bottom right side of my display screen on the DAVE just stopped working altogether. Inside the circular main display, there are 4 square sections, my bottom right section is completely off while the other 3 square sections (top 2, and bottom left) are all displaying properly.
> 
> Anyone else run into this issue, and I am assuming the warranty will be a HUGE hassle for both myself and the dealer I purchased from correct?
> 
> ...


Email support@chordelectronics.co.uk and ask their advice first.
The official RMA process is dealer first, then they forward the equipment to either the approved service centre for the country, or to chord.


----------



## N Quarter

Mikey99 said:


> What have others experienced?


My original Hugo 1 had a faulty HD USB input right out of the box.The standard USB worked fine, but I was pulling my hair out trying to get high res files to play. I took my IPad to my dealer to try it on the other Hugo he had, and it worked instantly. We swapped Hugo’s, and he sent the faulty one back to Chord.


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## sm60 (Dec 11, 2020)

Mikey99 said:


> Looking at these recent posts, it brings the following to mind. I have seven Chord products, and three of them have had to go back for repairs, including a Dave. Two had the problems out of the box. Meanwhile I have not had significant issues with other equipment. What have others experienced?


As a recent entrant to the world of Chord, these reports do concern me. I bought a Blu II and the Dave a few months ago. I primarily use the Blu for its M-scaler. The transport is flaky and simply too unreliable to use, at least my sample. I have the combo hooked up through the Waveform BNC cables, which made a larger difference than the EE engineer in me would like to believe. I view my purchase of these exotic products as an act of lunacy, even though I do enjoy their sound. Chord digital is bleeding edge. The M-scaler in the Blu II uses massive number crunching through a hot running DSP to implement the Watt filter with its million taps. This might explain why it is prone to failure.  My former EE DSP professor would roll her eyes if I told her how it works.  Most academics would consider this design with the same scorn that they would a fancy Patek Phillipe analog watch, which can cost many tens of thousands of dollars, yet tells the time no more accurately than a $10 Walmart Casio wristwatch. Does the Dave really sound that much better than a Chinese made Topping DAC, which costs $600 and gives you all resolutions up to DSD 512? I worry about the potential resale value of the Dave given these reports. I’d be very unhappy to have to return my unit for warranty repairs. As it is, I expect my Blu II would have to go back at some point since it seems really unreliable as a CD transport.


----------



## ra990 (Dec 11, 2020)

Mikey99 said:


> Looking at these recent posts, it brings the following to mind. I have seven Chord products, and three of them have had to go back for repairs, including a Dave. Two had the problems out of the box. Meanwhile I have not had significant issues with other equipment. What have others experienced?


Just had to send my new TT2 in for service because it errors out on the power up sequence, right out of the box.

I have owned numerous Chord products before, some pre-owned, yet this is the first issue I've encountered. I blame COVID.


----------



## jlbrach

sm60 said:


> As a recent entrant to the world of Chord, these reports do concern me. I bought a Blu II and the Dave a few months ago. I primarily use the Blu for its M-scaler. The transport is flaky and simply too unreliable to use, at least my sample. I have the combo hooked up through the Waveform BNC cables, which made a larger difference than the EE engineer in me would like to believe. I view my purchase of these exotic products as an act of lunacy, even though I do enjoy their sound. Chord digital is bleeding edge. The M-scaler in the Blu II uses massive number crunching through a hot running DSP to implement the Watt filter with its million taps. This might explain why it is prone to failure.  My former EE DSP professor would roll her eyes if I told her how it works.  Most academics would consider this design with the same scorn that they would a fancy Patek Phillipe analog watch, which can cost many tens of thousands of dollars, yet tells the time no more accurately than a $10 Walmart Casio wristwatch. Does the Dave really sound that much better than a Chinese made Topping DAC, which costs $600 and gives you all resolutions up to DSD 512? I worry about the potential resale value of the Dave given these reports. I’d be very unhappy to have to return my unit for warranty repairs. As it is, I expect my Blu II would have to go back at some point since it seems really unreliable as a CD transport.


I wouldnt worry too much the dave is considered one of the very best DAC's made and as good as it gets in its price range....


----------



## Amberlamps (Dec 12, 2020)

F208Frank said:


> Guys, I had my DAVE for about half a year or so only, and the bottom right side of my display screen on the DAVE just stopped working altogether. Inside the circular main display, there are 4 square sections, my bottom right section is completely off while the other 3 square sections (top 2, and bottom left) are all displaying properly.
> 
> Anyone else run into this issue, and I am assuming the warranty will be a HUGE hassle for both myself and the dealer I purchased from correct?
> 
> ...



I feel your pain bro, although I don’t have a dave, I do have a few chord products and, although they sound good, QC / QA is horrible.

Returning things to them is a no go, it has to go via your dealer, which in my case made my dealer travel 130 or so miles to pick my TT2 up and the same again for taking a repaired one back to me.

Good sounding music that costs ££££’s shouldn’t need to be like this. I will put it like this, I’ve had 3 mojo’s, 2 polys, and a TT2 repaired, the mojos I took back to the store, the poly was a chord recall due to a cold bug, and my TT2 started sounding like a grandfather clock. I think my Hugo 2 worked ok, but I would have to ask the foolish buyer who bought it from me if it is still working.

One thing thats for sure is, I will never buy anything Chord again, as again, although they sound good, deep down they are pieces of schiit.

And I don’t mean that to be a slur on Rob or Chord, it’s just how it is, for example, say you always shopped at asda and always got schiit stuff, you don’t stick with them due to misguided loyalty, no, you go to aldi and get better products for less money.

A better example is, you buy a new car and say it breaks down every six months and you take it back to the dealer and they “fix it” for you as its under warranty, but yet 3 months later it breaks again and continuous to do so every few months, you get pissed off and you dump the pos and trade it in for a different brand of car

Again, I’m not trying to take the piss out of rob or chord, as robs work is of a high standard with his theory of taps, it’s just that their products have serious issues with long term survivability. That is due to always trying to rush new products out the door every 18 months. When they really should be trying to find and fix the faults of their products that are out there already.

Anyway, don‘t let my post get you down, dave 2 is only 18 months away


----------



## ekfc63 (Dec 11, 2020)

edwardsean said:


> Jay's review reflects his characteristic enthusiasm for products he likes, and in this forum, we should keep in mind he is talking broadly. When asked about Dave specifically, Jay says he does find improvement but without elaborating.
> 
> I also like the Phoenix–a lot, but I don't find it quite as transformative with Dave. Nevertheless, for me, it is a case where, having invited it into my system, there is no way it is leaving. I think its benefits are probably due equally to the Sean Jacobs power supply and the actual reclocking/regenerating architecture. The digital side does what the reviews describe, but the SJ power supply adds a clean, analog fullness which is very welcome for Dave. (Also, it should be made clear that the Phoenix has nothing to do with the signal timing for Dave's masterclock. It is reclocking the USB data packets.)
> 
> ...




My Phoenix arrived yesterday.  I was pretty knackered after work last night (having taken my son out shopping for ski boots, shopping for and cooking dinner, etc) so wasn't motivated to unbox and plug it in.  Just before bedtime I thought the least I can do is to make the effort to plug it in and let it warm up overnight so that it was ready to go this evening.  Having done that I thought I'd have a quick listen.  1.5 hrs later I was still listening.  From the first minute of listening I could tell that the Phoenix was having a huge effect on my system (Zenith mk3, MScaler, Dave) for the better.  I'd read all the reviews available online and it does everything they say this unit does, but the one thing that stood out for me was the improvement in the timing.  It had my feet tapping along to the music which for me is one of the major things that separates sound from music.   Previously I'd been listening to my digital setup and thinking this sounds really nice but I didn't quite feel the level of engagement that I felt I should.  For me, by adding the Phoenix the engagement was there and sound became real music.  PRat rules!  Highly recommended!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Dec 13, 2020)

Had to share this:

Was playing the hifi yesterday and my wife was singing along. Later she said when are you going to play something I like? I said I thought you liked those songs, you sing along to them whenever I play them. She said no, its your flipping hifi, I can't stop myself! ...............seems to me a good test of whether a hifi is playing it right.


----------



## doraymon

A couple of months after adding a decent network player to my Dave/Utopia and enjoying a significant and not-so-expected improvement, I pushed myself further in the improvement of the digital input quality and purchased an UpTone EtherREGEN.

The long story short is: this is the best SQ I have ever heard out of my DAVE.

The ER arrived yesterday and I immediately connected it and went over my favorite tracks. The result was that I spent 4+ hours listening to my music. I couldn't get enough.
As you know this is always a good sign, if the music is felt as more natural and life-like and you just enjoy it it's always a good sign.

This morning I added back my previous switch (Netgear GS108) and managed some A/B (thanks @Roasty for the suggestions on the connection).
With my big surprise I could confirm without any doubt that moving from the Netgear to the EtherREGEN made a difference which is comparable (if not bigger) to the one I got moving from PC to Lumin U1 Mini to feed the DAVE. For almost 1/4 of the price...
It was like adding life into music, lifting another veil towards that "being there" feeling. I am really, really happy, the best 600$ spent on my system!!

I had a previous experience some years ago with an AQVOX but the improvements with the ER are of a different magnitude. To be fair to the German switch though, the system was different so I can't really compare them.

Note: I am not in any way associated with UpTone Audio and the impressions above are my 100% genuine feedback.


----------



## Ards

Similar experience upgrading switches and power supplies for them.  Seems to be a crucial aspect of streaming digital.


----------



## MatW

doraymon said:


> A couple of months after adding a decent network player to my Dave/Utopia and enjoying a significant and not-so-expected improvement, I pushed myself further in the improvement of the digital input quality and purchased an UpTone EtherREGEN.
> 
> The long story short is: this is the best SQ I have ever heard out of my DAVE.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear it works for you! I tried it too, but unfortunately it did not work well for me - it made the connection unstable - and I had to return it.


----------



## doraymon

MatW said:


> Glad to hear it works for you! I tried it too, but unfortunately it did not work well for me - it made the connection unstable - and I had to return it.


When I first connected it after a couple of songs the Lumin gave me a Network Error message. I switched everything off, including router and telecom box and then on again in the same order of the signal path: telecom box, router, ER, Lumin, Dave.
After that I used it for hours without any issues.

I’m sorry to hear it didn’t work for you.


----------



## MatW

doraymon said:


> When I first connected it after a couple of songs the Lumin gave me a Network Error message. I switched everything off, including router and telecom box and then on again in the same order of the signal path: telecom box, router, ER, Lumin, Dave.
> After that I used it for hours without any issues.
> 
> I’m sorry to hear it didn’t work for you.


Yes, I got similar messages. I hope it remains stable in your system. I got the advice to switch it around, i.e. connect the streamer to the A side and the network to the B side, which is apparently a viable route. It did make the connection more stable, but there were still dropouts so I gave up.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Sorry for the off topic post but these test results on bi-wiring compared to single wiring for loudspeaker connection are a real eye opener for me.

I thought it may interest others here too.

https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/blog/2016/06/08/bi-wiring-speakers-exploration-benefits/


----------



## Gadget67

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Sorry for the off topic post but these test results on bi-wiring compared to single wiring for loudspeaker connection are a real eye opener for me.
> 
> I thought it may interest others here too.
> 
> https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/blog/2016/06/08/bi-wiring-speakers-exploration-benefits/


I bi-wired my Totem Forest speakers with Audioquest Rocket 33 cables.  The difference was noticeable, but the real validation was that my wife (NOT an audiophile) also immediately noticed the difference.  If you knew my wife, you’d be ordering cables right after reading this.


----------



## ekfc63 (Dec 15, 2020)

doraymon said:


> A couple of months after adding a decent network player to my Dave/Utopia and enjoying a significant and not-so-expected improvement, I pushed myself further in the improvement of the digital input quality and purchased an UpTone EtherREGEN.
> 
> The long story short is: this is the best SQ I have ever heard out of my DAVE.
> 
> ...




I just ordered one for late Jan 2021 delivery.  The 30 day money back guarantee was the decider for me.  It'll be interesting to see if it makes a difference to my digital setup which has an Innuos Phoenix, which already includes a clock.


----------



## doraymon

ekfc63 said:


> I just ordered one for late Jan 2021 delivery.  The 30 day money back guarantee was the decider for me.  It'll be interesting to see if it makes a difference to my digital setup which has an Innuos Phoenix, which already includes a clock.


I hope you'll hear the improvements I did, let us know how it goes.
On a different note I wanted to show you how enjoyable is to use a wide gaming monitor for Roon. 75 albums in one screen!!


----------



## arjuna93

Rob Watts said:


> Airborne RF is not a problem at all for Dave - that's why it is in a solid block of machined aluminium. No RF can get in or out - except via the mains supply and I/O's. The mains supply is extremely well RF filtered, and all IO's are carefully treated for RF.



What about 2Qute and airborne RF? I use it with Airport Express currently.


----------



## doraymon

To be on the safe side I removed any WiFi emission in the room. Everything is connected with the LAN


----------



## arjuna93

doraymon said:


> To be on the safe side I removed any WiFi emission in the room. Everything is connected with the LAN



I could arrange that, provided it really improves performance – will require purchasing some extra gear to connect all hard-drives in chain without wireless.


----------



## arjuna93

iDesign said:


> AudioQuest does state, "Measurably reduces jitter and packet errors" and there has been a lot written here on the subject:
> 
> 
> http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...t-Jitterbug-and-Uptone-Regen-USB-Conditioners
> http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18311-AQ-Jitterbug-Measurements



_The requested page could not be found._


----------



## Uncle Monty

Interested if anyone has got experience / advice using a headphone amp with your DAVE.

Was reading about Monolith / Cavalli Liquid Gold / Platinum and the Manley Absolute and wondered - is there any benefit to be had using them with a DAVE?


----------



## doraymon

arjuna93 said:


> I could arrange that, provided it really improves performance – will require purchasing some extra gear to connect all hard-drives in chain without wireless.


I can’t say I heard any difference.
It’s just to mitigate my OCD


----------



## JTbbb

Uncle Monty said:


> Interested if anyone has got experience / advice using a headphone amp with your DAVE.
> 
> Was reading about Monolith / Cavalli Liquid Gold / Platinum and the Manley Absolute and wondered - is there any benefit to be had using them with a DAVE?



Good Morning Uncle Monty, I wouldn’t say I have any advice regarding using a headphone amp with your DAVE, but I have a little experience. I for a long time now have been fascinated with tube amplifiers, and after much research ended up with a Feliks Euforia. It is now a part of the hobby I am thoroughly enjoying. IMHO it has not taken anything away from DAVE but has added an extra dimension through tube rolling. More often than not I plug into Euforia these days rather than DAVE. Be warned though if you do go down the tube amp road, accumulating tubes is highly addictive!


----------



## Malcyg (Dec 17, 2020)

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Sorry for the off topic post but these test results on bi-wiring compared to single wiring for loudspeaker connection are a real eye opener for me.
> 
> I thought it may interest others here too.
> 
> https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/blog/2016/06/08/bi-wiring-speakers-exploration-benefits/



Interesting article, thanks Dave. I have been bi-wiring my speakers for years, despite the fact that many people dismiss the idea as a sales ploy. I generally ignore the ‘experts‘ and listen to what my ears tell me, but it’s nice to see some affirmative analysis. I first tried it with my old Euphonia MS4 because Dali recommended it and I highly doubt that they were just pitching to sell extra runs of speaker cable.

I’m not sure whether I should say it on here, but Nick (Triode User) made me a custom pair of bi-wired cables (before he became famous with WAVE 😉) which I use with my Blade 2 and they sound fantastic. Like anything, you should try it before you dismiss or disparage it.

Edit - the dismiss or disparage comment above is a generalisation and certainly not aimed at you Dave, just to be clear, but I’m sure you knew that. 👍🏻


----------



## Malcyg (Dec 17, 2020)

Uncle Monty said:


> Interested if anyone has got experience / advice using a headphone amp with your DAVE.
> 
> Was reading about Monolith / Cavalli Liquid Gold / Platinum and the Manley Absolute and wondered - is there any benefit to be had using them with a DAVE?



I have a Manley Absolute which I use with the Hugo2Go and it is a splendid combination. I really like the way you can tune the amp to match your headphones and the music, though I mainly tune to the headphones and use it in its least tube like setting and just add or subtract a little tube sparkle depending upon what I am listening to. Highly recommended if you can get one at a good price.

Possibly controversial to say, but you can definitely benefit from adding a headphone amp to Dave, though this will depend upon your headphones. For example Utopia sound great directly out of Dave whereas my old HD800 don’t. But when I plug the HD800 into the Manley Absolute, they sound very good and are nipping on the heels of Utopia and Diana Phi.

I haven’t used the Absolute with Dave alone, but I did use it with my BluDave and found that it didn’t stand out quite so well as it did with H2Go. It was very good, but not distinctly better than going direct out of Dave. The results varied with different types of music and also different headphones. I use Susvara with my main system and so I looked at a few other amps. I concluded that I needed an amp that could drive the Susvara to their full potential without sacrificing speed, detail and transparency and really adding as little as possible to the BluDave equation. I like the WA 33, which is quite popular, but ended up with the Wells Audio Headtrip Level II. This may be a controversial choice, but the combination with BluDave and Susvara is just the best I have heard. I discussed it with Jeff Wells and his design philosophy is in line with my own preferences and also match well with what I have read from Rob Watts. In particular, both of them are aiming for maximising transparency and both take the single ended route to achieve this.

I did stick for quite a while with the Chord credo that headphone amps are not required and can only subtract from the sound, but I finally decided to check it out and drew my own conclusions. The interesting thing is that I have gone from being an occasional headphone user to a position where I now use headphones most of the time. I’m a complete Headfi convert I guess!


----------



## jlbrach

with most efficient HP's the dave without amp is best but in some cases...ie, susvara and abyss you really have no choice


----------



## MacedonianHero

jlbrach said:


> with most efficient HP's the dave without amp is best but in some cases...ie, susvara and abyss you really have no choice



^ My sentiments as well. Anything extra is just adding distortion to your chain and muddying your music up.


----------



## edwardsean

MacedonianHero said:


> ^ My sentiments as well. Anything extra is just adding distortion to your chain and muddying your music up.



I would respectfully disagree. It's not "_just_ adding distortion to your chain and muddying your music up." Of a truth, it is adding distortion and you will be losing accuracy and transparency. But, a great amp, like the Viva Egoista, can also bring soundstage, dynamics, density, refinement, etc. while mitigating the "mud."

Some of it does come down to taste and the kind of sound you want. Nevertheless, there are gains in performance with an amp–along with the distortion. This is for one main reason: the vastly superior power supply.  

I know many would argue that the stock power supply in Dave is sufficient. It is. However, It is hard to make the case that it can't be bettered, and that a better power supply makes no difference to the quality of sound.


----------



## Malcyg

When using subjective words like ‘Best’, I feel that one should always add phrases like ‘in my opinion’, ‘according to my preference’, ‘with my ears and gear’ and words to that effect.


----------



## Uncle Monty

What got me thinking - there are so many high-end headphone amps out there (without DACs) that a lot of HP fans with high end DACs must be buying them, and they can't all have hard-to-drive headphones, can they?


----------



## Malcyg (Dec 23, 2020)

Uncle Monty said:


> What got me thinking - there are so many high-end headphone amps out there (without DACs) that a lot of HP fans with high end DACs must be buying them, and they can't all have hard-to-drive headphones, can they?



Having splashed out on a high end DAC, a lot of us probably like to muddy our sound with distortion. 😉

Edit - this was intended as a joke but clearly missed the mark.


----------



## Christer (Dec 18, 2020)

Malcyg said:


> Interesting article, thanks Dave. I have been bi-wiring my speakers for years, despite the fact that many people dismiss the idea as a sales ploy. I generally ignore the ‘experts‘ and listen to what my ears tell me, but it’s nice to see some affirmative analysis. I first tried it with my old Euphonia MS4 because Dali recommended it and I highly doubt that they were just pitching to sell extra runs of speaker cable.
> 
> I’m not sure whether I should say it on here, but Nick (Triode User) made me a custom pair of bi-wired cables (before he became famous with WAVE 😉) which I use with my Blade 2 and they sound fantastic. Like anything, you should try it before you dismiss or disparage it.
> 
> Edit - the dismiss or disparage comment above is a generalisation and certainly not aimed at you Dave, just to be clear, but I’m sure you knew that. 👍🏻


Interesting read, but "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" ,and would there be  any audible difference  or advantage to have 4 speaker outs on the amp over just two?
My take from the article is that they actually  recommend doing it if you have 4 speaker terminals on your  amp? 
Both my electrostatic speakers  with a removable jumper between treble and bass ,and my amp with 4 speaker terminals  seem capable of bi amping connection so I might give it  try.
But the info in my amp manual suggests using two different amps for proper bi amping, one amp  for treble and one for bass with one single crossover point like my  speakers have.
In my case it would still be the same amp but two different terminals used at the amp out.
How would or could this even work and be an improvement with most conventional cone speakers with three or even 4 crossover points and only two speaker terminals?
PS. DAVE /Susvara  a clear no go without a headphone amp  added imho.
Cheers CC


----------



## Malcyg (Dec 18, 2020)

Christer said:


> Interesting read, but "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" ,and would there be  any audible difference  or advantage to have 4 speaker outs on the amp over just two?
> My take from the article is that they actually  recommend doing it if you have 4 speaker terminals on your  amp?
> Both my electrostatic speakers  with a removable jumper between treble and bass ,and my amp with 4 speaker terminals  seem capable of bi amping connection so I might give it  try.
> But the info in my amp manual suggests using two different amps for proper bi amping, one amp  for treble and one for bass with one single crossover point like my  speakers have.
> ...



Hi Chris, yes bi amping seems to make more sense, logically, and I did do it some years back when I ran a stack of Cyrus black boxes with two stereo power amps. I tried also running both amps in mono, one per speaker (bi-wired of course!). I preferred bi amped to the dual mono configuration. Bi-amping was quite good actually but, I think, to do it properly, it gets complicated with crossovers and I couldn’t really be bothered pursuing it to that extent. I found much greater gains from moving ‘up’ to a Chord DSX1000 which was the beginning of my relatively long standing admiration of Chord DAC’s and the start also of an expensive upgrade process!

In terms of bi-wIring from the same amp, I found the differences to be similar to what I hear when comparing SE vs Balanced connections - more air, subtlety and delicacy around the finer details. But that is ‘imo, with my ears’ etc.

You should certainly try it and, knowing the sort of music that you like to listen to, I do suspect that you may like it but I certainly wouldn’t pre-judge your reaction.

PS Agreed re Susvara


----------



## number1sixerfan

Uncle Monty said:


> Interested if anyone has got experience / advice using a headphone amp with your DAVE.
> 
> Was reading about Monolith / Cavalli Liquid Gold / Platinum and the Manley Absolute and wondered - is there any benefit to be had using them with a DAVE?



I enjoy every headphone I have with my amp behind the Dave more than I do directly out of the Dave. Sound is a bit fuller and more refined. Not a huge leap at all, but very enjoyable. If you have a high quality amp, try it and let your ears decide. 

What I would mention however, is that the amp from the Dave is really high quality. If I didn't have my amp on hand already, I don't think I'd pay to add one if it wasn't fully necessary. I would just caution against the typical purist opinion of what's best--the sound is all that matters, try it for yourself if it's easy to do so.


----------



## sm60

Malcyg said:


> Having splashed out on a high end DAC, a lot of people probably like to muddy their sound with distortion. 😉


I love the sound of my Dave DAC, but only in DAC mode. In preamplifier mode, it doesn’t begin to compare to my Audio Research Reference tube preamp. It’s like listening to FM radio vs a hugely authoritative and dynamic presentation with a massive soundstage on which the music is presented. The Dave in preamp mode just scales everything down and shrinks the soundstage. Dynamics are squashed. Likewise, I don’t care for the Dave as a headphone amplifier. It doesn’t begin to compare to my Sony TA-ZH1ES, which stomps all over it. Part of the reason is that the Sony has a massively built power supply and it also drives my Sennheiser 800S in balanced mode.

As far as distortion goes, a fully balanced tube preamplifier like my ARC Ref has total harmonic distortion around -90dB. Any headphone made on earth has several orders of magnitude higher distortion, particularly in the bass, but even in the midrange. As far as your garden variety overpriced moving coil loudspeaker, don’t get me started. Moving coil loudspeakers that 99.999% of the planet uses to listen to music has shockingly high distortion, as high as 10% in the bass and around 2-3% in the midrange. Intermodulation distortion is also huge.

There’s a reason Stereophile never publishes distortion measurements of loudspeakers or headphones. They are so laughably bad compared to any $100 CD or Blu Ray player or tube amplifier. Instead they agonize over a DAC that has only -120dB distortion. As if you could ever hear the difference between -90dB and -120dB. It’s pseudoscience.

If you truly care about low distortion sound, buy an electrostatic loudspeaker. The Quad ESL 63, released in 1981 has lower distortion by an order of magnitude than any moving coil loudspeaker. Besides it is phase true, unlike 99.99% of moving coil loudspeakers. Quad used to check for quality control on the assembly line by feeding in a square wave into a carefully measured test unit and an inverted square wave into a production unit and use a microphone to check if the two sounds canceled each other to within 0.5dB. I’d like to see a single moving coil loudspeaker pass such a stringent test!


----------



## Widell

sm60 said:


> A couple of comments. The Dave is certainly an outstanding DAC, but as a headphone amplifier, it lacks some important capabilities. I’m using a Sennheiser 800S with balanced mode cables with the Sony TA-ZH1ES headphone amplifier and DAC, which supports balanced mode output. Used in this manner, the Sony is better sounding than the Dave to my ears. Like the Dave, the Sony allows upscaling to DSD 256 etc. No, the Sony does not sound as powerful or transparent as the Dave though my Audio Research Reference preamp and monoblock amplifiers. But through the headphone jack, the Dave does not sound to me as good as the Sony. I suspect the balanced drive mode is the reason. If I wanted to use the Dave to drive a pair of headphones, I would use a better headphone amplifier. For example, a Woo Audio tubed set would be sonically in a much higher class. Obviously, this is a subjective impression and others may be entirely happy with the Dave as a headphone amplifier.
> 
> Second, and this may sound a sacrilege in a headphone forum, I have yet to listen to a pair of headphones that can match a state of the art loudspeaker. For example, I use the Quad 2905 electrostatic loudspeaker among others. Even as good as the Sennheiser 800S is, it is simply no   match for the Quads. Of course, you need to have the space and the electronics to drive a large speaker like the 2905s. If I downsized to a small condo in a few years, say in nearby San Francisco, I could see myself being happy with just the Dave and the 800s.


Sorry for late reply as I was going through past post but what amps do you s=use r recommend with the Quad ESL2905, as I own sam, lovely speakers...


----------



## MacedonianHero

edwardsean said:


> I would respectfully disagree. It's not "_just_ adding distortion to your chain and muddying your music up." Of a truth, it is adding distortion and you will be losing accuracy and transparency. But, a great amp, like the Viva Egoista, can also bring soundstage, dynamics, density, refinement, etc. while mitigating the "mud."
> 
> Some of it does come down to taste and the kind of sound you want. Nevertheless, there are gains in performance with an amp–along with the distortion. This is for one main reason: the vastly superior power supply.
> 
> I know many would argue that the stock power supply in Dave is sufficient. It is. However, It is hard to make the case that it can't be bettered, and that a better power supply makes no difference to the quality of sound.



But in actuality that is exactly what is going on when adding (especially) a tube amp (by several orders of magnitude as well) after the DAVE. It is not warranted for most headphones (except for HE_6SE, Susvara, LCD-4, or Phi TC). The only gains in what the listener perceives is added distortion (which may or may not) sound pleasing to the listener.


----------



## edwardsean

MacedonianHero said:


> But in actuality that is exactly what is going on when adding (especially) a tube amp (by several orders of magnitude as well) after the DAVE. It is not warranted for most headphones (except for HE_6SE, Susvara, LCD-4, or Phi TC). The only gains in what the listener perceives is added distortion (which may or may not) sound pleasing to the listener.



We're all on this long journey don't you think? We're together exploring sound and the relationship between theory, objective measurements, and subjective perceptions. 

So, I'd like to try to push forward a bit by getting specific. I understand the claim that added "warmth," smoothness, timbral  density is just distortion. For some like yourself this is not getting the "best" from Dave. For others, this is the "best" for audio satisfaction. The engineering can be debated and I think both points of view have valid claims to being audiophile.

However, it's harder for me to understand how performance gains in areas such as soundstage, dynamics, and detail are merely artifacts of distortion. Can you flesh out how that works out psychoacousitically? 

Presently, it makes sense to me that an amp with better power delivery, slew rates, and a large transformer can actually improve dynamics. From your understanding, how does distortion get mistranslated mentally into freer dynamic swings? 

I have some ideas–in my mind–of what's going on–in your mind–as to what you think is going on–in my mind–(grin). But, I am genuinely curious of your thinking and ask in earnest.

FYI: my own system doesn't use an amp but a retrofit power supply; different case I know.


----------



## jlbrach

MacedonianHero said:


> But in actuality that is exactly what is going on when adding (especially) a tube amp (by several orders of magnitude as well) after the DAVE. It is not warranted for most headphones (except for HE_6SE, Susvara, LCD-4, or Phi TC). The only gains in what the listener perceives is added distortion (which may or may not) sound pleasing to the listener.


absolutely correct IMHO...if you are listening to the utopia or lcd-4z or other easy to drive HP's you are far better off listening direct from the dave...on the other hand if you are listening to the susvara or abyss tc etc you have no choice an amp is needed...


----------



## Malcyg (Dec 19, 2020)

sm60 said:


> I love the sound of my Dave DAC, but only in DAC mode. In preamplifier mode, it doesn’t begin to compare to my Audio Research Reference tube preamp. It’s like listening to FM radio vs a hugely authoritative and dynamic presentation with a massive soundstage on which the music is presented. The Dave in preamp mode just scales everything down and shrinks the soundstage. Dynamics are squashed. Likewise, I don’t care for the Dave as a headphone amplifier. It doesn’t begin to compare to my Sony TA-ZH1ES, which stomps all over it. Part of the reason is that the Sony has a massively built power supply and it also drives my Sennheiser 800S in balanced mode.
> 
> As far as distortion goes, a fully balanced tube preamplifier like my ARC Ref has total harmonic distortion around -90dB. Any headphone made on earth has several orders of magnitude higher distortion, particularly in the bass, but even in the midrange. As far as your garden variety overpriced moving coil loudspeaker, don’t get me started. Moving coil loudspeakers that 99.999% of the planet uses to listen to music has shockingly high distortion, as high as 10% in the bass and around 2-3% in the midrange. Intermodulation distortion is also huge.
> 
> ...



It seems that the humour/sarcasm in my post to which you responded completely passed you by. I’m actually largely in agreement with your comments here.

Lesson learnt on my part about making assumptions.


----------



## bluecar

Widell said:


> Sorry for late reply as I was going through past post but what amps do you s=use r recommend with the Quad ESL2905, as I own sam, lovely speakers...


My own experience with this is "try it and see"...I have two Hps - LCD3f and Focal Utopia.  I have a DAVE and an HPA-4. The LCDs work best with the SE connection direct to DAVE, but the Focal sounds better running balanced out from the HPA-4 (I have balanced and SE Forza cables for both cans).......theoretically, the Utopia should be an easier load to drive than the Audeze......but sound is sound. Weird huh.


----------



## Triode User

sm60 said:


> I love the sound of my Dave DAC, but only in DAC mode. In preamplifier mode, it doesn’t begin to compare to my Audio Research Reference tube preamp. It’s like listening to FM radio vs a hugely authoritative and dynamic presentation with a massive soundstage on which the music is presented. The Dave in preamp mode just scales everything down and shrinks the soundstage. Dynamics are squashed



I have only observed similar to this when I have used Dave direct into tube power amps. Then I agree with you that something very odd happens to the sound and it goes all flabby and is not good. This is immediately put right in my system by using a TVC (transformer volume control) pre such is the Music First Audio. The strange thing is that if I have Dave on say 0dB and the TVC on say -30dB the sound is great. If I change that to Dave on -30dB and the TVC at 0dB then the sound is terrible.

But this is only with tube power amps. In my experience I much prefer the sound of my Dave going direct to solid state power amps and using the Dave as the preamp to control volume. Then adding separate pre amp into the circuit only serves to lessen transparency and/or colour the sound (although with the Music First there is minimal change to either, it is the most transparent pre I have eve heard especially the latest Baby Reference V2 version).

On the matter of the PreAmp mode or Dac mode on the Dave, they are of course identical outputs and only differ by virtue of one being a fixed output voltage (Dac mode) and the other being a variable output (Amp mode). There is no other difference or any reason why they should sound different if set to the same output volume.


----------



## Jon L

Triode User said:


> I have only observed similar to this when I have used Dave direct into tube power amps.



That's odd since tube amps tend to have easier-to-drive input impedances (e.g. 50-100 kOhm range) compared to solid-state amps.


----------



## Triode User

Jon L said:


> That's odd since tube amps tend to have easier-to-drive input impedances (e.g. 50-100 kOhm range) compared to solid-state amps.



But I have owned 845 push pull, 300B SE, 2A3 push pull, 2A3 SE and 845 SE and all were the same.


----------



## Hooster

sm60 said:


> I love the sound of my Dave DAC, but only in DAC mode. In preamplifier mode, *it doesn’t begin to compare to my Audio Research Reference tube preamp*. It’s like listening to FM radio vs a hugely authoritative and dynamic presentation with a massive soundstage on which the music is presented. The Dave in preamp mode just scales everything down and shrinks the soundstage. Dynamics are squashed. Likewise, I don’t care for the Dave as a headphone amplifier. It doesn’t begin to compare to my Sony TA-ZH1ES, which stomps all over it. Part of the reason is that the Sony has a massively built power supply and it also drives my Sennheiser 800S in balanced mode.
> 
> As far as distortion goes, a fully balanced tube preamplifier like my ARC Ref has total harmonic distortion around -90dB. *Any headphone made on earth has several orders of magnitude higher distortion, particularly in the bass, but even in the midrange.* As far as your garden variety overpriced moving coil loudspeaker, don’t get me started. Moving coil loudspeakers that 99.999% of the planet uses to listen to music has shockingly high distortion, as high as 10% in the bass and around 2-3% in the midrange. Intermodulation distortion is also huge.



I can´t thank you enough for injecting your real world experience, sanity and wisdom into the discussion. You really are a breath of fresh air compared to those who dogmatically cling to views that may be logical but fall apart in the face of real world testing.


----------



## sm60

Widell said:


> Sorry for late reply as I was going through past post but what amps do you s=use r recommend with the Quad ESL2905, as I own sam, lovely speakers...



Quads generally sound nice with tube amplifiers, although I use both solid state and tube amplifiers with my 2905. The best sound unquestionably that I have experienced with my 2905s is through a pair of massive Audio Research Reference 210 mono block fully balanced tube amplifiers. These require a lot of space and generate considerable heat. Each monoblock uses 8 KT 120 power tubes, so you need to give these monsters plenty of room. I have mine positioned behind and to the side of my 2905s and listen in a very large room, so heat buildup is not noticeable. But I tend to use them more in the “winter” months (I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, which gets around the mid 30s Fahrenheit in the evenings during winter, but the days are warmer in the low 60s). In peak summer, I tend to use a variety of cooler running solid state amplifiers, including Quads own current dumping amplifiers and Lyngdorf and Tact pure digital pulse-width amplifiers, none of which sound as majestic as the Ref 210. I find switch-mode power supply amplifiers, like the Lyngdorf and Tact, particularly compressed sounding. Despite the “pure” signal path of these digital amplifiers (there is no low level D-A conversion with the Lyngdorf and Tact units, since the digital pulse-width modulated signal is directly converted to analog using a simple resistor capacitor network), the sound seems somewhat bleached and lacking in harmonic richness. Quicksilver tube mono blocks also sound nice, but they are noisier and don't have the sheer dynamics of the big Ref 210s.


----------



## rgs9200m

MrCypruz said:


> Just curious...why don’t you use the speakers to control the volume since they’re active? Is it because of a “hot” signal coming from the Dave?


The KEF volume control just seems hard to use. It is not quite ergonomically direct enough or precise enough for my taste. I need some sort of instant-feedback mechanism to be comfortable.


----------



## Hooster

Christer said:


> Interesting read, but "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" ,and would there be  any audible difference  or advantage to have 4 speaker outs on the amp over just two?
> My take from the article is that they actually  recommend doing it if you have 4 speaker terminals on your  amp?
> Both my electrostatic speakers  with a removable jumper between treble and bass ,and my amp with 4 speaker terminals  seem capable of bi amping connection so I might give it  try.
> But the info in my amp manual suggests using two different amps for proper bi amping, one amp  for treble and one for bass with one single crossover point like my  speakers have.
> ...



There is no real difference between 2 or 4 speaker outputs from 1 amp. If it has 4 speaker outputs it still really only has 2 outputs inside the box. The outputs are just split inside the box to provide 4 terminals on the outside.

You need two amps for proper bi amping. The benefit gained is that the amp that is working hard to produce bass is not bringing it's distortion into the treble. The amp providing the treble is not encumbered by having to produce bass. 

(Many modern speakers are very hard to drive and require a great deal of power, even at moderate listening levels. Otherwise the bass will tend to go muddy and the treble harsh. A neighbor of mine has typical inefficient 2 way speakers. He always thought they sounded harsh with his well regarded 100 watt amp and he blamed the speakers. I lent him my amp which is significantly more powerful and he realized that his amp was to blame for the harshness, not the speakers).


----------



## Hooster

sm60 said:


> Despite the “pure” signal path of these digital amplifiers (there is no low level D-A conversion with the Lyngdorf and Tact units, since the digital pulse-width modulated signal is directly converted to analog using a simple resistor capacitor network), *the sound seems somewhat bleached and lacking in harmonic richness.* Quicksilver tube mono blocks also sound nice, but they are noisier and don't have the sheer dynamics of the big Ref 210s.



Amen. Been their and done that and agree 100%.  I suspect your Quads will also sound good with a tube pre amp and a good solid state class A/B power amp.


----------



## Christer

Hooster said:


> There is no real difference between 2 or 4 speaker outputs from 1 amp. If it has 4 speaker outputs it still really only has 2 outputs inside the box. The outputs are just split inside the box to provide 4 terminals on the outside.
> 
> You need two amps for proper bi amping. The benefit gained is that the amp that is working hard to produce bass is not bringing it's distortion into the treble. The amp providing the treble is not encumbered by having to produce bass.
> 
> (Many modern speakers are very hard to drive and require a great deal of power, even at moderate listening levels. Otherwise the bass will tend to go muddy and the treble harsh. A neighbor of mine has typical inefficient 2 way speakers. He always thought they sounded harsh with his well regarded 100 watt amp and he blamed the speakers. I lent him my amp which is significantly more powerful and he realized that his amp was to blame for the harshness, not the speakers).


Thanks, that´s what I very much  suspected too.
And since my amp is not exactly lacking in power 900 watts per channel into 4ohm I won´t hurry to try separating treble and bass on my speakers but I may still give it a try later to see if I can hear any differences at all. 
Cheers CC


----------



## doraymon

New speakers day!
Santa arrived earlier and brought a partner for my Dave: it was love at first Ohm.
A fantastic pair of Compact Alnico Monitors straight out of the RCA output of the DAC. 
The match is fantastic to my ears, even before applying any acoustic treatment (on the way). I say this coming from the Utopias, so it's a big deal.
I was worried about them sounding too "light" in the bass section but I have to say I am positively surprised. 
I feel very privileged, almost guilty...


----------



## alxw0w

doraymon said:


> New speakers day!
> Santa arrived earlier and brought a partner for my Dave: it was love at first Ohm.
> A fantastic pair of Compact Alnico Monitors straight out of the RCA output of the DAC.
> The match is fantastic to my ears, even before applying any acoustic treatment (on the way). I say this coming from the Utopias, so it's a big deal.
> ...


Wow nice. Speakers look extremely nice. I'm jealous


----------



## JamieMcC

doraymon said:


> New speakers day!
> Santa arrived earlier and brought a partner for my Dave: it was love at first Ohm.
> A fantastic pair of Compact Alnico Monitors straight out of the RCA output of the DAC.
> The match is fantastic to my ears, even before applying any acoustic treatment (on the way). I say this coming from the Utopias, so it's a big deal.
> ...



Congratulations on the speakers and great choice of finish they look superb.

 Listening to quality sensitive full rangers direct from Dave can prove very addictive.


----------



## doraymon

JamieMcC said:


> Congratulations on the speakers and great choice of finish they look superb.
> 
> Listening to quality sensitive full rangers direct from Dave can prove very addictive.


Yes I have to say it’s a first for me and I’m impressed.
I’d like to thank @KMann for the great advice.


----------



## penguin69

Hi

Apologies to the purists here for what may be seen as something of a heretical post, but is anyone using their Dave as part of an AV setup?

I ask because, until now, I have only used my Dave for stereo listening. However, I have just acquired my first AV surround system. Hearing Dolby Atmos surround is great for movies, but of course I want to have my cake and eat it, viz. have the quality of the Dave governing the left and right speakers whilst the surround system takes care of the rest.

Specifically, I would like to be able to decode a Dolby Atmos signal from HDMI into a (L)PCM signal acceptable to Dave. The set-up is as follows: JBL Bar 9.1 soundbar fed by an Apple TV source, with the bar feeding my Sony TV via HDMI ARC tv input. Note that the Sony TV is already connected to my Chord kit by means of the TV's optical out, but this PCM stream unsurprisingly stops working when the soundbar takes over surround duties.

My initial thoughts are that I could take an HDMI splitter/decoder with a Toslink output, and try to feed the Dave with that.

Anyway, feel free to ignore this post as it is better situated on an AV forum/thread. I just thought I would ask here as maybe one of you guys know how to enjoy your Dave for movie-watching as well as standard stereo listening.

Cheers
penguin69


----------



## audio_1

penguin69 said:


> Hi
> 
> Apologies to the purists here for what may be seen as something of a heretical post, but is anyone using their Dave as part of an AV setup?
> 
> ...



I think the only way to do this fully transparently is with a processor such as the Trinnov Altitude 32 processor. This has single ended and balanced digital outputs for each channel. These could be connected direct to Dave's digital input and perhaps multiple TT2s for surround channels. The Altitude 32 processor would control the volume output on all channels. I considered getting one when Blu rays could be rented. I have given up on multichannel audio as there is now no readily available lossless software available. A good system would also be ridiculously expensive. A Trinnov Altitude 32, Dave  & Mscaler, Hugo TT2 dacs and power amplifiers!


----------



## penguin69

Thanks for the tip! An expensive option but it's good to see that the tech is possible. A half-way house I was considering was an AV amp with pre-outs, which would at least allow me to bring good quality amplification and speakers into the picture, as it were. But it leaves out the digital processing.


----------



## Ciggavelli

I'm thinking about upping my DAC setup.  This is a taboo subject, but for those of you that got external linear power supplies for your DAVE, what are your thoughts?  Is it worth it?

Also, what exactly is the reason why Chord doesn't want you to add these linear power supplies?  What are the risks?


----------



## ekfc63

The only one i’ve read about is the Sean Jacobs SR4 which is priced pretty heftily.  I’d love to hear about others.


----------



## Ciggavelli

ekfc63 said:


> The only one i’ve read about is the Sean Jacobs SR4 which is priced pretty heftily.  I’d love to hear about others.


That’s the one I’m interested in. I have the Innuos Zenith Mk3, which uses Sean Jacobs power supplies too. I’m impressed with his components


----------



## Triode User

Ciggavelli said:


> I'm thinking about upping my DAC setup.  This is a taboo subject, but for those of you that got external linear power supplies for your DAVE, what are your thoughts?  Is it worth it?
> 
> Also, what exactly is the reason why Chord doesn't want you to add these linear power supplies?  What are the risks?



Chord and Rob have always been very clear that the SMPS inside Dave measures extremely well and say there is no need or advantage in changing to an external LPS.

Having said that, I have had the Sean Jacobs DC4 powering my Dave for about a year now. The sound is just divine. There are now quite a few of us using the DC4 for the Dave around the world and I am not aware of any who have not been completely bowled over by the sound. I personally would probably go for the DC4 before adding an Mscaler, it is that good. I say this in full knowledge of what Rob has said about LPS but it is me listening to the DC4 Dave and really at the end of it that is all that counts for me.

On my journey to deciding to go with the DC4, I first tried taking the SMPS out of the Dave and putting it in an external box. That did help the sound to be a bit smoother. I also tried only powering the analogue circuits with DC4 and having the digital circuit powered with the SMPS, also the other way around ie digital with DC4 and analogue with SMPS, and neither were anywhere as good to my ears as using DC4 for both the digital and analogue boards in the Dave.

As to the risks, the voltage output from the DC4 is very stable and is extremely unlikely to supply an overvoltage which might damage Dave. Remember that Sean's power supplies are inside the Innuos Statement which sells for more than Dave and Innuos have no qualms about using his LPS throught their range including the Statement. However, if the thought of using a third party power supply with the Dave is likely to give one sleepless nights then I would say this is not for you, do not even think about it and leave it for the rest of us because Rob will say there is nothing to be gained and Chord will say the warranty is voided etc etc. However, my Dave has been powered on 24/7 by the DC4 for almost a year with no issues and in my mind the risk is so close to zero that I don't even think about it.

The conversion is just a matter of unplugging the SMPS and plugging in the supplied umbilical to the external DC4 having taken the top off the Dave. This is fully reversible so it leaves behind no sign of ever having been there if it is removed. Be aware though that the DC4 is big and heavy! (45cm x 30cm x 12cm). And of course there is the cost which is substantial - £4400, (6000 USD for North America) but having heard it and having weighed up the extra enjoyment I get from my system I put it in the value for money category.


----------



## Uncle Monty (Dec 24, 2020)

Ciggavelli said:


> I'm thinking about upping my DAC setup.  This is a taboo subject, but for those of you that got external linear power supplies for your DAVE, what are your thoughts?  Is it worth it?
> 
> Also, what exactly is the reason why Chord doesn't want you to add these linear power supplies?  What are the risks?


I intend to get a Sean Jacobs DC4 eventually (I have a DC3 powering my MScaler) but I recently acquired a Lessloss 64x Firewall and stuck it in the back of my DAVE to quite astounding effect. I'm no good at describing these things but it added 'air' and 'separation' (increased soundstage?) to my DAVE - really impressed.

https://www.lessloss.com/firewall-module-p-216.html


----------



## Hooster

Triode User said:


> Chord and Rob have always been very clear that the SMPS inside Dave measures extremely well and say there is no need or advantage in changing to an external LPS.
> 
> Having said that, I have had the Sean Jacobs DC4 powering my Dave for about a year now. The sound is just divine. There are now quite a few of us using the DC4 for the Dave around the world and I am not aware of any who have not been completely bowled over by the sound. I personally would probably go for the DC4 before adding an Mscaler, it is that good. I say this in full knowledge of what Rob has said about LPS bu*t it is me listening to the DC4 Dave and really at the end of it that is all that counts for me.*



Bravo, and many thanks for sharing your experience.


----------



## Hooster (Dec 24, 2020)

penguin69 said:


> Hi
> Apologies to the purists here for what may be seen as something of a heretical post, but is anyone using their Dave as part of an AV setup?



I have abandoned HT long ago. It is my opinion that HT is the worst thing that has happened to good sound reproduction in the home and it is a source of clutter and wasted money. If I were you I would just listen to movies in 2 channels and enjoy the superior sound quality of DAVE. Someone suggested an expensive processor. Let me humbly suggest that the money spent on a processor like that, multiple amplifiers and speakers, would produce far greater bang per buck if it was simply spent on 1 pair of speakers and 1 good two channel amplifier.

I listen to movies in 2 channels. Do I miss the surround sound effects? No. If I must have that I will just go to a movie theatre. I have done that about once in the past 5 years and that just goes to show how little I care about having sounds coming from behind me.


----------



## doraymon

Hooster said:


> I have abandoned HT long ago. It is my opinion that HT is the worst thing that has happened to good sound reproduction in the home and it is a source of clutter and wasted money. If I were you I would just listen to movies in 2 channels and enjoy the superior sound quality of DAVE. Someone suggested an expensive processor. Let me humbly suggest that the money spent on a processor like that, multiple amplifiers and speakers, would produce far greater bang per buck if it was simply spent on 1 pair of speakers and 1 good two channel amplifier.
> 
> I listen to movies in 2 channels. Do I miss the surround sound effects? No. If I must have that I will just go to a movie theatre. I have done that about once in the past 5 years and that just goes to show how little I care about having sounds coming from behind me.


100% agreed. And without counting that after having spent hundreds (or thousands) of $ you will find out that what you are hearing is your room and not your gear, and you don't want to divorce for filling the living room with bass traps and absorbers.

I abandoned HT several years ago due to space constraints and travelling around the world for work. I haven't missed it a bit.
Now I live in a place where big houses are kind of the standard and I decided to buy the latest and greatest Denon AVR and some surround speakers.
Result: wasted money...


----------



## penguin69

I'm minded to agree. If I don't get it all working, I'll go back to 2 channel as quality is far, far preferable over effects. 

But ... solving this problem has become almost an obsessive challenge over recent days.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Triode User said:


> Chord and Rob have always been very clear that the SMPS inside Dave measures extremely well and say there is no need or advantage in changing to an external LPS.
> 
> Having said that, I have had the Sean Jacobs DC4 powering my Dave for about a year now. The sound is just divine. There are now quite a few of us using the DC4 for the Dave around the world and I am not aware of any who have not been completely bowled over by the sound. I personally would probably go for the DC4 before adding an Mscaler, it is that good. I say this in full knowledge of what Rob has said about LPS but it is me listening to the DC4 Dave and really at the end of it that is all that counts for me.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all of the detailed info!  I think I'm going to make a purchase at the beginning of the year.  I can't wait to hear the improvements


----------



## saudio7

DC4 is rally expensive for me, I will have to look for some black Friday offer etc. for the possibility to buy it.


----------



## audio_1

Ciggavelli said:


> Thanks for all of the detailed info!  I think I'm going to make a purchase at the beginning of the year.  I can't wait to hear the improvements


Let us know how you get on. For me a good power cord, and mains conditioner transformed Dave. Roughly the same cost as the Sean Jacobs DC4. My power amps are also powered from it. I would get a DC4 if I was confident of further improvement.


----------



## stemiki

And so a few days ago I pulled the trigger to buy DAVE! 

Happy Holidays!🎆


----------



## Triode User

stemiki said:


> And so a few days ago I pulled the trigger to buy DAVE!
> 
> Happy Holidays!🎆



Excellent. You will not regret it. Ever.


----------



## TheAttorney (Dec 26, 2020)

Triode User said:


> Be aware though that the DC4 is big and heavy! (45cm x 30cm x 12cm). And of course there is the cost which is substantial - £4400, (6000 USD for North America).



It's that size and weight that most worries me in my downsizing ambition. It basically means having to reserve an entire hifi shelf for just the power supply. Which is why I'm considering what I call the DC3+, which is the smaller DC3 enclosure loaded with as many DC4 components as will fit (as a special order that needs discussion with SJ) . In particular, the DC4 regulators and top capacitors. But you can cherry pick a variety of options depending on how much you're prepared to spend.

The transformer will probably be smaller than the DC4's and some other goodies probably wouldn't fit, so it can never be exactly equal to a DC4, but it's a way of closing the considerable gap between DC3 and DC4 in both price and performance. Bearing in mind that DAVE doesn't consume much power, the DC3 transformer is already massively oversized in theory. I know that others have such upgraded DC3's, but I don't know if anyone's done the 3-rail version that is required for DAVE.

This would still be a big step for me to take and I'm not rushing to take it.

EDIT: Can anyone comment if such a power supply would particularly help DAVE better manage inefficient and hard-to-drive headphones such as Susvara or TC?


----------



## doraymon

stemiki said:


> And so a few days ago I pulled the trigger to buy DAVE!
> 
> Happy Holidays!🎆


Non te ne pentirai!
"Buckle up Dorothy, cause Kansas is going bye bye..."


----------



## doraymon (Dec 26, 2020)

Back on the topic of my new Omega CAMs connected to the RCA out of the Dave, with volume @-15dB I'm getting peaks of 75dB SPL in my nearfield setup (4ft  between speakers and listening position).
I never needed to increase volume above -10dB to get plenty of satisfaction.
At night time, wife and kids sleeping, a light breeze of jazz @-25dB volume makes for a perfect soul massage...
Truly fantastic experience with this combo and I'm about to experiment my first room treatment in a few days.
I hope this project will keep my wallet closed for a few months at least 

EDIT
Other comments regarding this experience, a bit OT sorry but had to share with someone: moving from headphones to speakers I rediscovered the emotion of feeling the soundstage depth and the "physicality" of feeling the bass in your chest. Sorry, I can't find other words to describe it, I hope it makes sense.


----------



## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> It's that size and weight that most worries me in my downsizing ambition. It basically means having to reserve an entire hifi shelf for just the power supply. Which is why I'm considering what I call the DC3+, which is the smaller DC3 enclosure loaded with as many DC4 components as will fit (as a special order that needs discussion with SJ) . In particular, the DC4 regulators and top capacitors. But you can cherry pick a variety of options depending on how much you're prepared to spend.
> 
> The transformer will probably be smaller than the DC4's and some other goodies probably wouldn't fit, so it can never be exactly equal to a DC4, but it's a way of closing the considerable gap between DC3 and DC4 in both price and performance. Bearing in mind that DAVE doesn't consume much power, the DC3 transformer is already massively oversized in theory. I know that others have such upgraded DC3's, but I don't know if anyone done the 3-rail version that is required for DAVE.
> 
> ...



If you get the DC4 rectification and regulation boards then the only difference will be the DC3 transformer and I would then say the final build then is more like a DC4 minus rather than a DC3 plus. I have run one of these against a full spec DC4 and can confirm that you get most of the full fat DC4 sound.

As to your question about driving those headphones, I think the DC4 current delivery is better than DC3 but you are best to ask SJ on that. Even so of course it cannot magically make current delivery or extra power where it doesn’t exist in the Dave. Also bear in mind that in any case the current delivery from the factory fitted SMPS is more than adequate for the Dave.


----------



## onlychild

TheAttorney said:


> EDIT: Can anyone comment if such a power supply would particularly help DAVE better manage inefficient and hard-to-drive headphones such as Susvara or TC?



I have a DC4, Dave and Susvaras. The power supply does not make the Dave drive the Susvaras any better.

What it does do is stop the SMPS of the DAVE from bleeding noise into your other equipment since it’s now replaced with a very good linear power supply (DC4). This in turn allows you to not have to turn the volume up as high since the noise floor has dropped significantly regardless of what is plugged into DAVE. Dropping the noise floor as much as the DC4 does improves every aspect of the sound.  

Susvaras shine with a good amp (period).


----------



## muski

Triode User said:


> Chord and Rob have always been very clear that the SMPS inside Dave measures extremely well and say there is no need or advantage in changing to an external LPS.
> 
> Having said that, I have had the Sean Jacobs DC4 powering my Dave for about a year now. The sound is just divine. There are now quite a few of us using the DC4 for the Dave around the world and I am not aware of any who have not been completely bowled over by the sound. I personally would probably go for the DC4 before adding an Mscaler, it is that good. I say this in full knowledge of what Rob has said about LPS but it is me listening to the DC4 Dave and really at the end of it that is all that counts for me.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your informative post. Any thoughts on the 2-output DC4?

I was hoping I could power both DAVE and M Scaler.

Cheers,
muski


----------



## onlychild

muski said:


> Thanks for your informative post. Any thoughts on the 2-output DC4?
> 
> I was hoping I could power both DAVE and M Scaler.
> 
> ...



I had a two output DC3 and Sean Jacobos no longer suggests one as the noise from the Mscaler bleeds into the DAVE.  I might have had the only one made.


----------



## Glossator

onlychild said:


> I had a two output DC3 and Sean Jacobos no longer suggests one as the noise from the Mscaler bleeds into the DAVE.  I might have had the only one made.


Just to second this.    I asked Sean to take just the two output approach suggested - albeit for HMS and both sides of Opto Dx bridge and it was not a success.   Various fiddling about including with a battery identified what was happening.   Sean kindly reconfigured my DC3 to a single output - which with a bit more jiggery pokery (unfortunately in wallet terms involving a second DC3) solved the problem.   Working fantastically on a stand alone basis (although currently DAVE as stock).   I would guess a two output DC4 would be fine for HMS and Opto DX out.


----------



## sm60

Generally I refrain from mods that change the internal circuitry like power supply design. Gifted designers like Rob Watts know what they are doing. The probability that some third party design could improve the sound is a bit remote. It’s like the various mods offered on Sony SACD players or Oppo Blu Ray players. These companies have very gifted designers in their employ who have decades of experience at what they do. I’m not saying that an external power supply to the Dave doesn’t change the sound. It certainly might. But it’s not the sound that Chord intended in the original design. For example, if you took one of Chord’s switch mode power amplifiers and replaced the power supply.  You have a different unit and not one that the designers intended you to hear. The switch mode is integral to the Chord sound. A linear power supply might have an entirely different sound. You might very well prefer the linear supply, but that’s not what Chord designed. At this point, the design is no longer a Chord, just like a modded Sony SACD player is no longer what the designers intended.


----------



## onlychild

sm60 said:


> Generally I refrain from mods that change the internal circuitry like power supply design. Gifted designers like Rob Watts know what they are doing. The probability that some third party design could improve the sound is a bit remote. It’s like the various mods offered on Sony SACD players or Oppo Blu Ray players. These companies have very gifted designers in their employ who have decades of experience at what they do. I’m not saying that an external power supply to the Dave doesn’t change the sound. It certainly might. But it’s not the sound that Chord intended in the original design. For example, if you took one of Chord’s switch mode power amplifiers and replaced the power supply.  You have a different unit and not one that the designers intended you to hear. The switch mode is integral to the Chord sound. A linear power supply might have an entirely different sound. You might very well prefer the linear supply, but that’s not what Chord designed. At this point, the design is no longer a Chord, just like a modded Sony SACD player is no longer what the designers intended.



Not necessarily.  Designers also have to stay within a budget when designing their components.  You can't build a Dave for $10k when the power supply alone will cost $4k.


----------



## Ciggavelli

I look at it like computer parts. Nvidia didn’t intend to have me remove the fans and put a waterblock on their gpus, but doing so makes the graphics card that much better.

I’m hoping the same things happens when I replace the DAVE’s power supply


----------



## Sampajanna (Dec 27, 2020)

Been lurking here a while and thought I would chime in on a couple of things if it helps anyone.... I know this is mainly a headphone site and many of you use your Dave in that way. I have a Mscaler>TT2>Cayin HA300 for headphones. I use my Dave for my main speaker setup. I think this is often underestimated. The Dave can be a real giant killer with the right speakers and equipment.

I own the Sean Jacobs DC4 and if any of you are on the fence about this product, all I can say is that it absolutely blew my mind. ( I have since ordered a second one for my Mscaler as well. Can't wait!) My journey towards the DC4 began with power cables. My system is pretty resolving, highlighting small changes. I experienced a very, very noticeable difference between a stock, so-so and shunyata alpha cable into my Dave. Then I upgraded to the Shunyata sigma and that was noticeable even to my wife. That got me thinking that this device is really sensitive to power and the DC4 might be worth a try.... Wow! is all I can say. All due respect to Robb Watts for all the joy he has brought my life. Deep bows, brother, but you need to listen to the DC4! It is mind-numbingly smooth and beautiful and opens the Dave up in every possible direction. The Dave now honestly competes with way, way more expensive DACs friends brought over. The Mscaler>Wavestorm cables>Dave w/ DC4 power is IMHO better in _some areas_ than the dCS Vivaldi, though not as good as the MSB I borrowed (hehe).... Anyway, just one dude's opinion. If you can afford the upgrade, you won't be disappointed. Also, I am a dolt when it comes to electronics and even I could manage the job of converting it--pretty easy...

My main set up, in case you are wondering:

Innuos Statement>
Mscaler>
Dave>
AVM Ovation MA 8.3 monos>
KEF Reference 5

DC4 & PS Audio P10 power plant
All Shunyata sigma cabling (except for the Wavestorm)


----------



## onlychild

And while we are still on the topic of the DC4, the Synergistic Research Orange fuse is a worthwhile upgrade for the DC4 and well worth the price of admission


----------



## doraymon

onlychild said:


> And while we are still on the topic of the DC4, the Synergistic Research Orange fuse is a worthwhile upgrade for the DC4 and well worth the price of admission


It never ends, doesn't it?


----------



## Sampajanna

Nice. Which one plz?


----------



## alekc

onlychild said:


> Not necessarily.  Designers also have to stay within a budget when designing their components.  You can't build a Dave for $10k when the power supply alone will cost $4k.



I tend to disagree. When developer has proper knowledge about own designs he can address further possible improvements in manual or add some features to the original design to enable customers for such extensions. Take a look at Mytek Brooklyn range for example. Manufacturer clearly states that you can use different PSU for further improvements in product manual and adds additional plug for it.


----------



## TheAttorney (Dec 28, 2020)

muski said:


> Thanks for your informative post. Any thoughts on the 2-output DC4?
> I was hoping I could power both DAVE and M Scaler.



Just to be clear, DAVE requires a power supply with 3 DC outputs (5v, 15v and -15v), which is why you need the 3-regulator-board DC4, which considerably adds to the cost.
The DC4 package for DAVE envelopes these 3 outputs into a single cable with multi-pinned plug for convenience.

The HMS only needs a single 15v output supply because it already has a DC input socket with a stock external SMPS that does the AC->DC conversion.

So a power supply to power both DAVE and HMS would need to have 4 regulator boards, which is pushing it at the best of times, and is anyway not recommended for DAVE+HMS as onlychild has mentioned.

Quite possibly, the DC power supply inside the HMS also splits the incoming 15v into different sub-voltages, but I suspect it would be harder, and with diminishing returns, to try to break into that, which only the maddest, craziest audiophile would ever contemplate doing .

Just to remind everyone that the stock power supplies in DAVE and HMS do their job very well. The tweaks we are talking about would apply to just about any other high end component, but some components respond more successfully to certain upgrades.


----------



## adyc

TheAttorney said:


> Just to be clear, DAVE requires a power supply with 3 DC outputs (5v, 19v and -19v), which is why you need the 3-regulator-board DC4, which considerably adds to the cost.
> The DC4 package for DAVE envelopes these 3 outputs into a single cable with multi-pinned plug for convenience.
> 
> The HMS only needs a single 15v output supply because it already has a DC input socket with a stock external SMPS that does the AC->DC conversion.
> ...


Is the voltage to Dave should be 5 15V -15 V? I remember Sean told me this is the voltage he used.


----------



## TheAttorney

adyc said:


> Is the voltage to Dave should be 5 15V -15 V? I remember Sean told me this is the voltage he used.



Well spotted - you are right. I've corrected my earlier post.


----------



## Sampajanna

I understand the desire to leave the Dave alone, as I felt the same way, but hearing is believing. The DC4 is no small improvement that you need golden ears to hear, nor is it just some kind of distortion. It takes everything you love about the Dave and amplifies it.... I highly doubt Sean gets any negative feedback.


----------



## Arniesb

Sampajanna said:


> I understand the desire to leave the Dave alone, as I felt the same way, but hearing is believing. The DC4 is no small improvement that you need golden ears to hear, nor is it just some kind of distortion. It takes everything you love about the Dave and amplifies it.... I highly doubt Sean gets any negative feedback.


There is some things that cant be measured right? Why does so many dacs or amps sound so much better with linear power supplies if Smps measure so good?


----------



## thePhones

Yesterday was the first time watching movies with my lovely new Dave. Started Fargo Season two on Netflix again... The mscaler was ready to deliver 1 million taps (Nvidia Shield does offer the option to send audio up to one second in advance)...I was so amazed by the clarity, differences in timbre and depth that at some point I startet clapping like I was 5 years old and watching a lion jump through a hoop😂
Was thinking Dave is just a little bit more transparent than Hugo 2, what a fool I was🤯


----------



## number1sixerfan

sm60 said:


> Generally I refrain from mods that change the internal circuitry like power supply design. Gifted designers like Rob Watts know what they are doing. The probability that some third party design could improve the sound is a bit remote. It’s like the various mods offered on Sony SACD players or Oppo Blu Ray players. These companies have very gifted designers in their employ who have decades of experience at what they do. I’m not saying that an external power supply to the Dave doesn’t change the sound. It certainly might. But it’s not the sound that Chord intended in the original design. For example, if you took one of Chord’s switch mode power amplifiers and replaced the power supply.  You have a different unit and not one that the designers intended you to hear. The switch mode is integral to the Chord sound. A linear power supply might have an entirely different sound. You might very well prefer the linear supply, but that’s not what Chord designed. At this point, the design is no longer a Chord, just like a modded Sony SACD player is no longer what the designers intended.



I understand the sentiment, but I'd have to strongly disagree with the premise. Of course the manufacturers and designers have tons of expertise and often put out great products, but they do so with a specific budget, level of effort and profit margin in mind for sustainability purposes. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But certainly, many, if not most products could stand to be improved. 

I do relate however, as I don't like being bothered with mods either.. especially when they go against warranties of already expensive products. However, there's just too much overwhelming evidence and posts that suggest the power supply upgrade in question actually makes a solid difference. 
-------

Aside from the above, two questions for the group. Is it absolutely necessary to open up the Dave to use the DC4 (sounds like it is)? Is it quite easy to order and get your hands on one? May not ever go down that path but it does sound interesting..


----------



## iDesign

doraymon said:


> It never ends, doesn't it?


The other question is if it makes sense to invest thousands in modifying digital tech that will soon be obsolete or replaced by a newer version?


----------



## Ciggavelli

iDesign said:


> The other question is if it makes sense to invest thousands in modifying digital tech that will soon be obsolete or replaced by a newer version?


That’s a fair point. 

But, the future is in the future. Now is now


----------



## hieukm

Sampajanna said:


> Been lurking here a while and thought I would chime in on a couple of things if it helps anyone.... I know this is mainly a headphone site and many of you use your Dave in that way. I have a Mscaler>TT2>Cayin HA300 for headphones. I use my Dave for my main speaker setup. I think this is often underestimated. The Dave can be a real giant killer with the right speakers and equipment.
> 
> I own the Sean Jacobs DC4 and if any of you are on the fence about this product, all I can say is that it absolutely blew my mind. ( I have since ordered a second one for my Mscaler as well. Can't wait!) My journey towards the DC4 began with power cables. My system is pretty resolving, highlighting small changes. I experienced a very, very noticeable difference between a stock, so-so and shunyata alpha cable into my Dave. Then I upgraded to the Shunyata sigma and that was noticeable even to my wife. That got me thinking that this device is really sensitive to power and the DC4 might be worth a try.... Wow! is all I can say. All due respect to Robb Watts for all the joy he has brought my life. Deep bows, brother, but you need to listen to the DC4! It is mind-numbingly smooth and beautiful and opens the Dave up in every possible direction. The Dave now honestly competes with way, way more expensive DACs friends brought over. The Mscaler>Wavestorm cables>Dave w/ DC4 power is IMHO better in _some areas_ than the dCS Vivaldi, though not as good as the MSB I borrowed (hehe).... Anyway, just one dude's opinion. If you can afford the upgrade, you won't be disappointed. Also, I am a dolt when it comes to electronics and even I could manage the job of converting it--pretty easy...
> 
> ...


Please let us know what improvement do you have when the 2nd DC4 arrive. I also had a DC4 powering my Dave and assessing situation for the 2nd one for Blu2/HMS.

Just out of curiousity, which MSB DAC did you compare to? Was the Dave + HMS far off? Was the HMS powered by LPS?


----------



## BassicScience

iDesign said:


> The other question is if it makes sense to invest thousands in modifying digital tech that will soon be obsolete or replaced by a newer version?


The short answer is "no".


----------



## Sampajanna

It is an easy mod. I am so clumsy and have no experience. I did put the cable guard in upside down, but realized it soon and switched. All in all it is an easy process. And should you want to sell the Dave one day, returning the original power supply is also easy enough. I wouldnt say it is a necessary upgrade. Nothing is. I would call the Wave cables far more necessary than the DC4 if you have an Mscaler.... This all depends on usage and other factors. If you are using Dave for heaphones, I probably wouldnt consider this at all. If you are using it for speakers and can afford the upgrade, it is more than worth it. As I said, I had friends bring over a dCS vivaldi, which is way more than the Dave with Mscaler, Wave cables and DC4 and in some areas the Dave outshone (we all agreed). This wouldn't be true without the Mscaler, Wave cables and DC4.... 

I have no idea about measurements vs. subject experience and linnear vs other types of power. In the end, I try to enjoy the process of building and improving a system, learning and, of course, in the end, the music is all there is to it. It is nice when measurements align with that and provid objectivity. But this is all a mysterious and magical blend of objective engineering and subjective experience. That said, the DC4 is no small, subtle change. It is not some kind of some people may here this or placebo type of thing.... I have had cables like that, where you cannot be sure and keep asking yourself "am I really hearing this." Oh no. There is no need for back and forth. Plug the DC4 into your Dave and a new world opens.


----------



## Sampajanna

hieukm said:


> Please let us know what improvement do you have when the 2nd DC4 arrive. I also had a DC4 powering my Dave and assessing situation for the 2nd one for Blu2/HMS.
> 
> Just out of curiousity, which MSB DAC did you compare to? Was the Dave + HMS far off? Was the HMS powered by LPS?


Yes, my HMS is currently powered by MCRU power supply. The MSB was a Reference and no the Chord system was KO. Not close. But I would hope so for that price. However, the dCS Vivaldi system was close and we felt the Chord system outshone it in some areas--more resolving and "crystalline" and a nicer timber. But the Vivaldi with the clock is smoother. I would say that this system competes withe the Vivaldi alone in a serious way, but is bested by the Vivaldi with its clock and upsampler, but again you would hope so for the price. Overall, considering the cost of HMS+ Wave cables + Dave + DC4, I am very pleased with how it fared against these giants....


----------



## hieukm

Sampajanna said:


> It is an easy mod. I am so clumsy and have no experience. I did put the cable guard in upside down, but realized it soon and switched. All in all it is an easy process. And should you want to sell the Dave one day, returning the original power supply is also easy enough. I wouldnt say it is a necessary upgrade. Nothing is. I would call the Wave cables far more necessary than the DC4 if you have an Mscaler.... This all depends on usage and other factors. If you are using Dave for heaphones, I probably wouldnt consider this at all. If you are using it for speakers and can afford the upgrade, it is more than worth it. As I said, I had friends bring over a dCS vivaldi, which is way more than the Dave with Mscaler, Wave cables and DC4 and in some areas the Dave outshone (we all agreed). This wouldn't be true without the Mscaler, Wave cables and DC4....
> 
> I have no idea about measurements vs. subject experience and linnear vs other types of power. In the end, I try to enjoy the process of building and improving a system, learning and, of course, in the end, the music is all there is to it. It is nice when measurements align with that and provid objectivity. But this is all a mysterious and magical blend of objective engineering and subjective experience. That said, the DC4 is no small, subtle change. It is not some kind of some people may here this or placebo type of thing.... I have had cables like that, where you cannot be sure and keep asking yourself "am I really hearing this." Oh no. There is no need for back and forth. Plug the DC4 into your Dave and a new world opens.





Sampajanna said:


> Yes, my HMS is currently powered by MCRU power supply. The MSB was a Reference and no the Chord system was KO. Not close. But I would hope so for that price. However, the dCS Vivaldi system was close and we felt the Chord system outshone it in some areas--more resolving and "crystalline" and a nicer timber. But the Vivaldi with the clock is smoother. I would say that this system competes withe the Vivaldi alone in a serious way, but is bested by the Vivaldi with its clock and upsampler, but again you would hope so for the price. Overall, considering the cost of HMS+ Wave cables + Dave + DC4, I am very pleased with how it fared against these giants....


I think the Chord was KO because you have no pre amp. The MSB stack must have had the preamp and volume control built in option along with mono power base?


----------



## Ciggavelli

Sampajanna said:


> It is an easy mod. I am so clumsy and have no experience. I did put the cable guard in upside down, but realized it soon and switched. All in all it is an easy process. And should you want to sell the Dave one day, returning the original power supply is also easy enough. I wouldnt say it is a necessary upgrade. Nothing is. I would call the Wave cables far more necessary than the DC4 if you have an Mscaler.... This all depends on usage and other factors. If you are using Dave for heaphones, I probably wouldnt consider this at all. If you are using it for speakers and can afford the upgrade, it is more than worth it. As I said, I had friends bring over a dCS vivaldi, which is way more than the Dave with Mscaler, Wave cables and DC4 and in some areas the Dave outshone (we all agreed). This wouldn't be true without the Mscaler, Wave cables and DC4....
> 
> I have no idea about measurements vs. subject experience and linnear vs other types of power. In the end, I try to enjoy the process of building and improving a system, learning and, of course, in the end, the music is all there is to it. It is nice when measurements align with that and provid objectivity. But this is all a mysterious and magical blend of objective engineering and subjective experience. That said, the DC4 is no small, subtle change. It is not some kind of some people may here this or placebo type of thing.... I have had cables like that, where you cannot be sure and keep asking yourself "am I really hearing this." Oh no. There is no need for back and forth. Plug the DC4 into your Dave and a new world opens.


I’m curious, why do you think the power supply upgrade isn’t worth it if you only listen to headphones?


----------



## sm60

iDesign said:


> The other question is if it makes sense to invest thousands in modifying digital tech that will soon be obsolete or replaced by a newer version?



I couldn’t have put it better. My sense is most folks, including yours truly, spend far too much money on parts of the chain that are already near perfection (e.g., digital front end, amplifiers), and far less on things that really make a difference (e.g., room correction and treatment, live music, speakers). All said and done, the most colored components in your system are your room and speakers or headphones, and spending lots of money on external power supplies for the Dave will not fix the glaring problems with your room or speakers, which dwarf any with the stock  power supply in the Dave.

My most significant upgrade recently was getting a pair of the ultra massive REL G1 Mk2 subwoofers (or as REL likes to call them, sub bass systems because they respond to below 15 Hz). I was lucky to pick up a brand new pair for nearly half price, which is a bit higher than what the DC4 goes for. These are large subs, weighing almost a 100 pounds each and take up a lot of room. They are designed to go in the corners of your listening room, behind your main full range speakers. Crossovers are set very low, around 35 Hz or lower. They dramatically im[prove the sound of my Quad 2905s or my Harbeth 40.1s, both full range speakers. The reproduction of the ambience in a concert hall is now literally jaw dropping. Before the first notes begin, you literally hear the concert hall itself, almost breathing in an atmospheric way. These are easily the best subs I’ve ever heard, and in the past, I’ve hated subs as they invariably impose a midrange coloration. These are impossible to localize, and completely unflappable. Organ music is as you’d expect heart stopping in its raw power. Every type of music benefits from their presence. I’m glad I got these. Given a choice, I’d rather have invested in high end subs like these rather than the DC4. But not everyone has the space to house such large subs!


----------



## Sampajanna

hieukm said:


> I think the Chord was KO because you have no pre amp. The MSB stack must have had the preamp and volume control built in option along with mono power base?


Yes, it did have all that.


----------



## Sampajanna

Ciggavelli said:


> I’m curious, why do you think the power supply upgrade isn’t worth it if you only listen to headphones?


I am sure it would improve things viz a viz headphines as well. It just makes for a big headphone set up. I would recommend the Cayin HA300 amp instead or along with teh DC4


----------



## muski (Dec 28, 2020)

TheAttorney said:


> Just to be clear, DAVE requires a power supply with 3 DC outputs (5v, 15v and -15v), which is why you need the 3-regulator-board DC4, which considerably adds to the cost.
> The DC4 package for DAVE envelopes these 3 outputs into a single cable with multi-pinned plug for convenience.
> 
> The HMS only needs a single 15v output supply because it already has a DC input socket with a stock external SMPS that does the AC->DC conversion.
> ...


Thanks. Extremely informative and helpful!


----------



## Sampajanna (Dec 28, 2020)

sm60 said:


> I couldn’t have put it better. My sense is most folks, including yours truly, spend far too much money on parts of the chain that are already near perfection (e.g., digital front end, amplifiers), and far less on things that really make a difference (e.g., room correction and treatment, live music, speakers). All said and done, the most colored components in your system are your room and speakers or headphones, and spending lots of money on external power supplies for the Dave will not fix the glaring problems with your room or speakers, which dwarf any with the stock  power supply in the Dave.
> 
> My most significant upgrade recently was getting a pair of the ultra massive REL G1 Mk2 subwoofers (or as REL likes to call them, sub bass systems because they respond to below 15 Hz). I was lucky to pick up a brand new pair for nearly half price, which is a bit higher than what the DC4 goes for. These are large subs, weighing almost a 100 pounds each and take up a lot of room. They are designed to go in the corners of your listening room, behind your main full range speakers. Crossovers are set very low, around 35 Hz or lower. They dramatically im[prove the sound of my Quad 2905s or my Harbeth 40.1s, both full range speakers. The reproduction of the ambience in a concert hall is now literally jaw dropping. Before the first notes begin, you literally hear the concert hall itself, almost breathing in an atmospheric way. These are easily the best subs I’ve ever heard, and in the past, I’ve hated subs as they invariably impose a midrange coloration. These are impossible to localize, and completely unflappable. Organ music is as you’d expect heart stopping in its raw power. Every type of music benefits from their presence. I’m glad I got these. Given a choice, I’d rather have invested in high end subs like these rather than the DC4. But not everyone has the space to house such large subs!


I agree with this. Room and speakers and then amps and then the digital side last... I think that is why I said that maybe the DC4 is more useful in a speaker system than in a headphone. Once you do have speakers and subs, nice amps etc, you start to tweak things to bring out their best, this includes isolation, cabling and power. I think the isolation, cabling and power together arent like another component, but rather allow your components to shine more gloriously. Like a great tennis racket wont help me, who has never played tennis, beat Nadal; and Nadal can play just fine with a crappy old racket, but you take a Nadal and give him an expensive racket and he can put it to good use for an edge that improves his playing....

While speaking of isolation, the HMS is a jitterbug. You will be blown away by what isolation does for this. Even some great and cheap Isoacoustics Graphite will do the trick and make a huge difference...


----------



## edwardsean

Sampajanna said:


> I agree with this. Room and speakers and then amps and then the digital side last... I think that is why I said that maybe the DC4 is more useful in a speaker system than in a headphone.



I would respectfully add that the opposite argument also makes sense. I agree that, for a speaker setup, upgrades in speakers, amps, room, etc. would make a far larger difference. There's just more that calls for investment before tackling the power supply in the DAC. 

However, if you are happy with the Dave and your headphones and cable, there's less to improve there. If you want to upgrade the system, you have to look at your front end going into the Dave and the power you are supplying to it.


----------



## Sampajanna

edwardsean said:


> I would respectfully add that the opposite argument also makes sense. I agree that, for a speaker setup, upgrades in speakers, amps, room, etc. would make a far larger difference. There's just more that calls for investment before tackling the power supply in the DAC.
> 
> However, if you are happy with the Dave and your headphones and cable, there's less to improve there. If you want to upgrade the system, you have to look at your front end going into the Dave and the power you are supplying to it.


Quit true indeed. Very different experiences, speaker to headphone and very different setup, investment strategy, etc.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Sampajanna said:


> I am sure it would improve things viz a viz headphines as well. It just makes for a big headphone set up. I would recommend the Cayin HA300 amp instead or along with teh DC4


Thanks for the info!  I’m not too concerned with how big the setup is. I have a Woo Audio wa33 elite headphone amp with JPS wiring. I am very happy with the sound, but I’m always looking for improvements. I guess it’s that audiophile addiction kicking in...hahaha

I think an upgraded dac could further improve my setup. Have you tried the dCS Rossini with the master clock?  How does it compare to the DAVE with the DC4?


----------



## voldemortnbk (Dec 29, 2020)

For those who couldn't afford Sean DC4, get someone DIY for you a Linear PSU will work also, still better than the stock SMPS. This one size is about the same as DAVE.


----------



## Sampajanna

Ciggavelli said:


> Thanks for the info!  I’m not too concerned with how big the setup is. I have a Woo Audio wa33 elite headphone amp with JPS wiring. I am very happy with the sound, but I’m always looking for improvements. I guess it’s that audiophile addiction kicking in...hahaha
> 
> I think an upgraded dac could further improve my setup. Have you tried the dCS Rossini with the master clock?  How does it compare to the DAVE with the DC4?


Just tried the Vivaldi and it was better in some areas and not others, but the Vivaldi is above the Rossini, so....

I had a Woo Audio WA22 for a few years. A friend wanted it and I didn't need the preamp function anymore so I sold it to him. Then I went back and forth between the Cayin HA300 and the Woo WA5-LE.... In the end, I chose the Cayin for the magic it sprinkles on my Utopias in particular.... Took me two years to find the perfect tubes for the WA22. Just getting started with the HA300... rolled two sets of drivers and neither were right.... The journey moves on....


----------



## PortableAudioLover

hello folks,
I am recently interested in getting a DAVE. I was wondering if anybody here has tried to use the XLR outputs at the backside of DAVE to drive headphones just like a lot of people have been doing with the TT2 ?


----------



## alxw0w (Dec 30, 2020)

PortableAudioLover said:


> hello folks,
> I am recently interested in getting a DAVE. I was wondering if anybody here has tried to use the XLR outputs at the backside of DAVE to drive headphones just like a lot of people have been doing with the TT2 ?


Not possible, XLR outputs have way to little current available, and also output impedance (not sure about that) of XLR is much higher than HP jack and rca outputs.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/post-12355143


----------



## doraymon

alxw0w said:


> Not possible, XLR outputs have way to little current available, and also output impedance (not sure about that) of XLR is much higher than HP jack and rca outputs.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/post-12355143


But they could be used to feed a powered subwoofer (line level) even if  at the same time the RCA is used to power high sensitivity speakers. Is that correct?


----------



## alxw0w

doraymon said:


> But they could be used to feed a powered subwoofer (line level) even if  at the same time the RCA is used to power high sensitivity speakers. Is that correct?


Yes I think so. 
But keep in mind that xlrs have higher voltage output  than rca so you have to counterbalance volume input on the subwoofers so the bass wouldn't be overwhelming.


----------



## doraymon

alxw0w said:


> Yes I think so.
> But keep in mind that xlrs have higher voltage output  than rca so you have to counterbalance volume input on the subwoofers so the bass wouldn't be overwhelming.


Some subs (especially for mixing studios) have XLR inputs so I guess that's not going to be an issue, e.g. Yamaha HS8S or JBL LSR310S.


----------



## PortableAudioLover

Has anyone tried to listen to iems with the chord dave ? Were there any detectable hisses ? I currently have the hugo 2 and the amount of hiss I heard is staggering


----------



## hmartin

PortableAudioLover said:


> Has anyone tried to listen to iems with the chord dave ? Were there any detectable hisses ? I currently have the hugo 2 and the amount of hiss I heard is staggering


Yes, etymotic no hiss that I could hear.


----------



## PortableAudioLover

hmartin said:


> Yes, etymotic no hiss that I could hear.


What’s the output impedance on those iems ?


----------



## iDesign

PortableAudioLover said:


> Has anyone tried to listen to iems with the chord dave ? Were there any detectable hisses ? I currently have the hugo 2 and the amount of hiss I heard is staggering


Not with the Etymōtic ER4SR which I have since sold. I also briefly tested my 64 Audio A18s with my DAVE + Blu Mk II and had no issues.


----------



## PortableAudioLover

iDesign said:


> Not with the Etymōtic ER4SR which I have since sold. I also briefly tested my 64 Audio A18s with my DAVE + Blu Mk II and had no issues.


Thank you ! The fact that the DAVE has no hiss for 18s which has 9 ohms impedance is impressive !


----------



## hmartin

PortableAudioLover said:


> What’s the output impedance on those iems ?


The er4s are 100 ohm


----------



## bdjul (Jan 4, 2021)

Hello everyone! I had Hugo2+2go for portable use and recently bought Dave to build stationary setup. For now I have my pc connected to Dave with audioquest diamond usb.I plan to buy mscaler in future and some aurender model to connect mscaler with usb and then dual bnc in Dave. But in meantime should I buy 2uy, pair it with 2go and connect it to Dave via bnc cable or just leave as it is? Thank you!


----------



## iDesign

bdjul said:


> Hello everyone! I had Hugo2+2go for portable use and recently bought Dave to build stationary setup. For now I have my pc connected to Dave with audioquest diamond usb.I plan to buy mscaler in future and some aurender model to connect mscaler with usb and then dual bnc in Dave. But in meantime should I buy 2uy, pair it with 2go and connect it to Dave via bnc cable or just leave as it is? Thank you!


Save the money for the Hugo M Scaler.


----------



## JamieMcC

doraymon said:


> Back on the topic of my new Omega CAMs connected to the RCA out of the Dave, with volume @-15dB I'm getting peaks of 75dB SPL in my nearfield setup (4ft  between speakers and listening position).
> I never needed to increase volume above -10dB to get plenty of satisfaction.
> At night time, wife and kids sleeping, a light breeze of jazz @-25dB volume makes for a perfect soul massage...
> Truly fantastic experience with this combo and I'm about to experiment my first room treatment in a few days.
> ...



Great to hear your up and running direct to the Omegas.

Certainly wish at least one or two of the professional reviewers would make the effort to review Dave and TT2 used directly to power speakers.


----------



## voldemortnbk

JamieMcC said:


> Great to hear your up and running direct to the Omegas.
> 
> Certainly wish at least one or two of the professional reviewers would make the effort to review Dave and TT2 used directly to power speakers.


Audiobacon (Jay Luong) have DAVE and omega reviewed in : https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-hugo-2.22209/reviews#item-review-19435. He also compared between amped and direct drive speakers.


----------



## doraymon

voldemortnbk said:


> Audiobacon (Jay Luong) have DAVE and omega reviewed in : https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/chord-hugo-2.22209/reviews#item-review-19435. He also compared between amped and direct drive speakers.


That's a really enthusiastic review, it makes me feel better as I intentionally controlled my words when expressing my enthusiasm in my first comments, to avoid sounding like a fanboy...

Today I got a cheap pair of XLR to RCA cables and I connected my Home Theatre sub (B&W ASW610) directly to the Dave.
No positioning experiments (I just placed the sub below the desk) and no room treatment yet.

I wasn't impressed by the result, I preferred the unattached sound of the Omegas even if renouncing to a little bit of thump.
I will do more tests moving the sub and reducing its volume (@ 1/4th turn the volume was so high that I couldn't listen to a single track). Moving around the room with an SPL meter and some test tracks playing I believe I have big bump@60Hz which is particularly strong exactly in my listening position.

Now it's night here, time to switch off the sub, lower the Dave's volume to -25dB and enjoy a jazzy end of the day at the Pawnshop...


----------



## alxw0w

After switching from MTT2 to solo Dave I knew that it's only a matter of time when I'm going to add M Scaler.
And _"ooops I did it again"_ I've just ordered the M Scaler from my dealer.
It's a bit pity that I have to wait for about a month - distributor stock is empty due to corona thing that is happening in UK.
It's going to be long ass month 😥


----------



## doraymon

alxw0w said:


> After switching from MTT2 to solo Dave I knew that it's only a matter of time when I'm going to add M Scaler.
> And _"ooops I did it again"_ I've just ordered the M Scaler from my dealer.
> It's a bit pity that I have to wait for about a month - distributor stock is empty due to corona thing that is happening in UK.
> It's going to be long ass month 😥


This Corona doesn't have any respect for us Chord customers... unacceptable!


----------



## PortableAudioLover

So Dave came today and I gotta say, WOW! This really made me think hard about all the DACs I had thus far ...


----------



## doraymon

PortableAudioLover said:


> So Dave came today and I gotta say, WOW! This really made me think hard about all the DACs I had thus far ...


Oh! From the packaging I see this is from the batch with reduced number of taps... Sorry mate...


----------



## PortableAudioLover

doraymon said:


> Oh! From the packaging I see this is from the batch with reduced number of taps... Sorry mate...


There’s such thing ?


----------



## alxw0w

doraymon said:


> Oh! From the packaging I see this is from the batch with reduced number of taps... Sorry mate...


Omg, what a devil.



PortableAudioLover said:


> There’s such thing ?


Of course not


----------



## PortableAudioLover

alxw0w said:


> Omg, what a devil.
> 
> 
> Of course not


my ears can’t lie haha. I sat down with my Stellia and oh boy that was the quickest hour of my life just sitting down and listening to music without doing anything


----------



## miketlse

PortableAudioLover said:


> There’s such thing ?


News to me.
Is this a spoof post


----------



## kenray536

I have a Dave and Mscaler with factory BNC cables. 

Which upgrade should I do next?

Opto DX or Wave Storm BNC cables?

Opto DX:
https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/products/dx-optical-isolation-kit

Wave storm:
https://www.wavehighfidelity.com/storm-1/wave-storm-bnc-cable


----------



## doraymon

doraymon said:


> Oh! From the packaging I see this is from the batch with reduced number of taps... Sorry mate...


Guys I was just kiddin', sorry I thought it was clear...
Of course there is no such thing! Enjoy your new Dave mate


----------



## PortableAudioLover

doraymon said:


> Guys I was just kiddin', sorry I thought it was clear...
> Of course there is no such thing! Enjoy your new Dave mate


Haha thanks


----------



## miketlse

doraymon said:


> Guys I was just kiddin', sorry I thought it was clear...
> Of course there is no such thing! Enjoy your new Dave mate


@doraymon I realise there was no malicious intent, but your post fell into the same trap as previous head-fi posts (not by you), stating that black coloured dacs had a darker sound signature, than silver coloured dacs.
Such posts totally confuse/mislead new head-fi posters who 'are not in the joke'.


----------



## jlbrach

personally I highly doubt that anyone sophisticated enough to be contemplating buying a DAC of the quality of the Dave would actually believe that the color of the Dave will influence its sound...kind of like suggesting a white car performs better than a black car


----------



## miketlse

jlbrach said:


> personally I highly doubt that anyone sophisticated enough to be contemplating buying a DAC of the quality of the Dave would actually believe that the color of the Dave will influence its sound...kind of like suggesting a white car performs better than a black car


search through the chord related threads, and you will find posts from individuals who thought such posts were serious. Confusing one potential Chord enthusiast, is one too many.


----------



## audio_1

kenray536 said:


> I have a Dave and Mscaler with factory BNC cables.
> 
> Which upgrade should I do next?
> 
> ...


Opto Dx imho. It can completely remove rfi. It also allows separation of digital and analogue components. See the Audiowise website and some of my other posts for details. Dave and the Blu2 are incredibly natural sounding in my system, with absolutely no digital signature at all.


----------



## miketlse

audio_1 said:


> Opto Dx imho. It can completely remove rfi. It also allows separation of digital and analogue components. See the Audiowise website and some of my other posts for details. Dave and the Blu2 are incredibly natural sounding in my system, with absolutely no digital signature at all.


The theory behind Opto Dx is interesting and plausible.
The most surprising element, is that so few owners post about trying Opto Dx.


----------



## kenray536

audio_1 said:


> Opto Dx imho. It can completely remove rfi. It also allows separation of digital and analogue components. See the Audiowise website and some of my other posts for details. Dave and the Blu2 are incredibly natural sounding in my system, with absolutely no digital signature at all.


Thanks for the reply, did you still have to spend a lot on BNC cables? Or does the Opto DX reduce the need for heavy/shielded cables?


----------



## sm60

miketlse said:


> The theory behind Opto Dx is interesting and plausible.
> The most surprising element, is that so few owners post about trying Opto Dx.


Interesting, I hadn’t heard of this unit. I bought the Waveform BNC cables. They are expensive and somewhat unwieldy, but they do make a tangible improvement between my Blu Mk2 and Dave. I haven’t played with optical connections in the last 20 years or so, ever since they fell out of favor in the early days of digital. I think the initial receivers were limited to 96khz and while the isolation was a nice bonus, the cables themselves were somewhat flimsy and not very high quality. There was a review in Stereophile once where John Atkinson said moving the optical cable around caused dropouts. I assume the technology has been improved. The double BNC connection from the Blu to the Dave is at 768khz, so the optical cables you use might make a big difference as to how well this works. Then there’s the issue of introducing yet another conversion layer from BNC to optical and back. I can see how this might be useful over long distances, but for a meter or two distance, it seems like overkill. But then at this exalted level, perhaps everything feels like overkill.


----------



## audio_1

kenray536 said:


> Thanks for the reply, did you still have to spend a lot on BNC cables? Or does the Opto DX reduce the need for heavy/shielded cables?


I originally had 2 x 1.2 m Oyaide DB510 cables with clip on ferrites between the Dave and Blu2. I removed the ferrites when I got the Opto-DX and used the DB510 cables on the Opto-DX receiver, with the supplied Audiowise BNC cables on the Opto-DX transmitter. I have since replaced them with 2 more 1.2 m Oyaide BB510 cables. This improved sound quality further. The supplied BNC cables must have poor screening. The DB510 are triple screened and good value, considering the quality.


----------



## muski

kenray536 said:


> I have a Dave and Mscaler with factory BNC cables.
> 
> Which upgrade should I do next?
> 
> ...


While I suspect these are both great options, I'm very happy with Opto-DX and agree with @audio_1 that it resolves the RFI issues: brightness gone, darker background and noticeable mid/upper bass improvements (esp. bassoons & cellos). Opto-DX enhaces the magic, analog-like M Scaler effect on Redbook audio—I'm so addicted to the wonderfully detailed attacks of harpsichords, well-mic'ed piano recordings, and snare drums. There's no going back.

I went for a 3m optical interconnect that allows me to physically separate the M Scaler and DAVE. I've played around with PowerAdd batteries, but ultimately went with a pair of Uptone LPS-1.2s to power the two boxes.

Cheers,
muski


----------



## muski

audio_1 said:


> I originally had 2 x 1.2 m Oyaide DB510 cables with clip on ferrites between the Dave and Blu2. I removed the ferrites when I got the Opto-DX and used the DB510 cables on the Opto-DX receiver, with the supplied Audiowise BNC cables on the Opto-DX transmitter. I have since replaced them with 2 more 1.2 m Oyaide BB510 cables. This improved sound quality further. The supplied BNC cables must have poor screening. The DB510 are triple screened and good value, considering the quality.


Nice. I am a big fan of Oyaide. Just wish I could get 30cm ones.


----------



## muski

And while on the topic of Opto-DX, I'm all in on things optical these days. On Black Friday I upgraded to the sonicTransporter i9 optical and opticalRendu package.Very compelling: the blackest of backgrounds and wonderful detail. A big step up from my Roon NUC + ultraRendu. (I'm certainly intrigued by the Innuos Statement, but this package was about 1/4 the cost).


----------



## musickid

is there any such thing as a battery powered optical roon endpoint for dave? if not any good affordable optical sources apart from the chromecast which i did not like the sound of.


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## alxw0w (Jan 10, 2021)

musickid said:


> is there any such thing as a battery powered optical roon endpoint for dave? if not any good affordable optical sources apart from the chromecast which i did not like the sound of.


You can try raspberry pi 4 with hifiberry digi+ pro.
Installing ropieee or vitos it can be used as a roon endpoint.


----------



## musickid (Jan 10, 2021)

how does mojo vs dave compare for you? also how is optical quality direct from an imac/mac if anyone can comment. thanks


----------



## alxw0w (Jan 10, 2021)

Dave vs Mojo really there is nothing to compare. Two different units for different use cases. Alas if some disaster happened I would be happy using only mojo it's that good 

While I don't have mac, my pc has optical output.
It was definitely step up in sound quality when comparing it's usb output into Dave.
But feeding Dave with optical from digi+ pro is another step up  but not as significant as going from pc usb to optical pc.
In my case it was like that:
- usb from pc was really fatiguing
- usb from battery powered raspberry pi was much better not fatiguing
- optical from digi pro+ is the smoothest darkest, not fatiguing at all. Some people may call this compressed or lacking dynamics, but reading all the information that Rob is giving about noise floor modulation I'm sure in my case that's the way to go


----------



## Progisus

musickid said:


> is there any such thing as a battery powered optical roon endpoint for dave? if not any good affordable optical sources apart from the chromecast which i did not like the sound of.


I’m using a rpi3 with Justboom optical hat into my TT2. It could be powered by a battery bank but the stock supply is good. It can be wifi or ethernet and Ropieee is a good software especially for roon.


----------



## iDesign (Jan 10, 2021)

musickid said:


> also how is optical quality direct from an imac/mac if anyone can comment. thanks


You’ve asked this many times before. Apple no longer includes an integrated 3.5mm headphone and optical output in the iMac. Older and vintage versions of the iMac used a low quality Cirrus Logic audio codec/controller for S/PDIF. Also bear and mind those iMac models only supported up to 192 kHz sample rate for audio playback via TOSLINK. There are many better options available.


----------



## TheAttorney

miketlse said:


> The theory behind Opto Dx is interesting and plausible.
> The most surprising element, is that so few owners post about trying Opto Dx.



I'm a strong believer in the impact of BNC cables between HMS and DAVE, but I would never ever consider the Opto DX solution, however good it may sound, simply because I hate cable spaghetti. All those extra boxes and cables and power supplies totally rule it out for me. Especially as the BNC cables at either end still matter according to some reviews. And the quality of the power supplies matter too. I suspect others feel the same way, so won't even bother to try.



kenray536 said:


> Thanks for the reply, did you still have to spend a lot on BNC cables? Or does the Opto DX reduce the need for heavy/shielded cables?



IMO it is a mistake to assume that cables must be heavy with ferrites, or heavily shielded, to sound good. Some may, some may not - there are too many variables involved.
For example, when I had the Blaxius BNC cables with their multiple, configurable, shield layers, the shielding combination that sounded best could not have been predicted by traditional engineering theory. And the combination with most shielding was definitely not the best sounding.

And my end-game USB cables, Sablon 2020, apparently have no shielding at all for the signal wires. Earlier, lesser sounding, versions did have shielding I think.
People are free to predict an outcome based on engineering theory and common sense, but only listening will tell you what sounds best in practice.


----------



## doraymon

miketlse said:


> @doraymon I realise there was no malicious intent, but your post fell into the same trap as previous head-fi posts (not by you), stating that black coloured dacs had a darker sound signature, than silver coloured dacs.
> Such posts totally confuse/mislead new head-fi posters who 'are not in the joke'.


Mike, come on, everybody knows black dacs can't have a darker sound. It was silver ones that had sibilance no?

*Hey, stop, I WAS JOKING! silver dacs are as good as any other color!*

I hope we can still be friends


----------



## miketlse

doraymon said:


> Mike, come on, everybody knows black dacs can't have a darker sound. It was silver ones that had sibilance no?
> 
> *Hey, stop, I WAS JOKING! silver dacs are as good as any other color!*
> 
> I hope we can still be friends


We are still friends, but this just illustrates the importance of considering the potential impact that all our posts may have, to new followers of the thread, who may not understand the in-jokes.


----------



## doraymon

miketlse said:


> We are still friends, but this just illustrates the importance of considering the potential impact that all our posts may have, to new followers of the thread, who may not understand the in-jokes.


What potential impact, sorry I'm not getting it?


----------



## jlbrach

sorry but anyone considering buying a 10K DAC who can be convinced that the color of the DAC will impact its sound signature probably shouldnt be buying it


----------



## miketlse

doraymon said:


> What potential impact, sorry I'm not getting it?


You and I both know that the colour of the dac does not impact on its sound signature - that is 'tacit knowledge'.
New viewers to any thread, do not understand such tacit knowledge, or 'in jokes' so can easily be misled by posts implying that the colour of a dac, is a proxy for its sound signature.


----------



## jlbrach

if you are in the market for a DAC costing what the Dave does and you can be convinced that different colors will influence the sound then I suggest you are not the right person to be buying such gear...but hey whatever


----------



## sm60

jlbrach said:


> if you are in the market for a DAC costing what the Dave does and you can be convinced that different colors will influence the sound then I suggest you are not the right person to be buying such gear...but hey whatever


I wish that were true. I wouldn’t be surprised if you could find reviews that tell you silver clad preamplifiers by Audio Research sound “better” than the black faceplate models. If you tell any of my computer science colleagues that many audiophiles are convinced that the quality of a USB cable influences the “sound” produced by transferring bits over it, they’d all roll on the floor laughing till tears came out. The vast majority of audiophiles believe in things that most of the rest of the planet would consider insanity. But I wouldn’t single out audiophiles for this type of delusional behavior. The greatest classical musicians believe that instruments made several hundred years ago, for example violins by Stradivarius, are much better sounding than any modern violin. So much so that Stradivarius violins are now so expensive, costing in the many millions of dollars, that no musician can afford to buy one, and usually end up playing on borrowed instruments loaned by a bank or a museum (e.g., the Smithsonian). There’s no rational explanation for why Stradivarius violins sound better. Usually the explanations are based on things like the type of varnish on the wood Stradivarius used or the wood itself or some unique shape. Many studies have been done on this subject and no one has ever shown using any scientific method that these violins produce a unique sound that is measurable. Yet this is taken as gospel by the world‘s most highly paid violinists who perform at the top concert halls.


----------



## alekc

jlbrach said:


> if you are in the market for a DAC costing what the Dave does and you can be convinced that different colors will influence the sound then I suggest you are not the right person to be buying such gear...but hey whatever



Considering that some hear the difference between different RAM manufactures for music servers the impact of color does not surprise at all.  Audio industry is full of non-scientific facts that a lot of people not only believe but do hear the difference even if it is impossible for human ear.  But like you've said... hey whatever


----------



## jlbrach

sm60 said:


> I wish that were true. I wouldn’t be surprised if you could find reviews that tell you silver clad preamplifiers by Audio Research sound “better” than the black faceplate models. If you tell any of my computer science colleagues that many audiophiles are convinced that the quality of a USB cable influences the “sound” produced by transferring bits over it, they’d all roll on the floor laughing till tears came out. The vast majority of audiophiles believe in things that most of the rest of the planet would consider insanity. But I wouldn’t single out audiophiles for this type of delusional behavior. The greatest classical musicians believe that instruments made several hundred years ago, for example violins by Stradivarius, are much better sounding than any modern violin. So much so that Stradivarius violins are now so expensive, costing in the many millions of dollars, that no musician can afford to buy one, and usually end up playing on borrowed instruments loaned by a bank or a museum (e.g., the Smithsonian). There’s no rational explanation for why Stradivarius violins sound better. Usually the explanations are based on things like the type of varnish on the wood Stradivarius used or the wood itself or some unique shape. Many studies have been done on this subject and no one has ever shown using any scientific method that these violins produce a unique sound that is measurable. Yet this is taken as gospel by the world‘s most highly paid violinists who perform at the top concert halls.


you are not comparing a usb cable to the color of the DAC are you?...I mean cable are controversial for sure but they actually do transmit the information to components....color lol?....


----------



## edwardsean

I'm happy this discussion is on the thread. It may just sound like diplomacy, but I think both parts of this are good for everyone to hear. 

I really enjoy the in-jokes! They often give me a good laugh when I need it these days. I'd be sad if all the fear and judgment in the air right now suffocated our collegial joking. Please no.  

At the same time, yes please, let's look out for those who are newer to audio. We all remember back to when we were first trying to make heads or tails of this stuff. Of course there is no difference between black/silver Dave, but at the same time, on the AKSP2000 thread the difference in tone between the silver/black/copper models are readily accepted. It's not the color, but one is stainless steel, one is painted SS, and the other is copper. Believe it or not, the vibration in the different casing materials do affect tone. Chord engineers have told us that Dave's hefty aluminum casing is part of its SQ. It's just that the black and silver Dave are the same case, but it could get confusing. 

I think I made one of those jokes about silver/black Daves a while back. I can't remember if I indicated that I was joking, which I do. I don't think any apologies are in order. At the same time, I'm glad that people are keeping us mindful that we all share this thread with lovers of sound at many levels. 

Maybe DAVE 2 will be two-tone black and silver–best of both worlds (joking!).


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jan 10, 2021)

edwardsean said:


> I'm happy this discussion is on the thread. It may just sound like diplomacy, but I think both parts of this are good for everyone to hear.
> 
> I really enjoy the in-jokes! They often give me a good laugh when I need it these days. I'd be sad if all the fear and judgment in the air right now suffocated our collegial joking. Please no.
> 
> ...


Well said.  I was thinking about the DragonFly headphone amp and their different colors (which have different sound quality, and are different products).  I could see a new head-fier maybe think the same was happening with the Chord DAVE.  I know, with a little bit of research, you could easily find out that the color does not matter at all.  But still, somebody new may not know this


----------



## doraymon

Allow
Me to be honest. I find this discussion about the extra care towards less experienced headfiers overly protective and “politically correct”.
We need to smile and take innocent jokes for what they are.
However in the years I’ve learned to love and appreciate this community and all its members so I will follow the suggestion and refrain from these little provocations in the future.


----------



## ZappaMan

lets not create a sterile environment


----------



## Roasty

An acquaintance will be loaning me his chord Dave and mScaler. Going to go pick it up tomorrow! So excited. Only ever heard the Dave in the shops. Can't wait to try it out in my own system, and see how it fares against the Wavelight. Will be feeding the dave/mscaler from my sotm 200 ultra to Innuos Phoenix usb reclocker.


----------



## ekfc63

Roasty said:


> An acquaintance will be loaning me his chord Dave and mScaler. Going to go pick it up tomorrow! So excited. Only ever heard the Dave in the shops. Can't wait to try it out in my own system, and see how it fares against the Wavelight. Will be feeding the dave/mscaler from my sotm 200 ultra to Innuos Phoenix usb reclocker.



Looking forward to reading your impressions.


----------



## Roasty (Jan 18, 2021)

Just got the Dave up and running. Apologies it is sitting on my center speaker temporarily.. No room left! And disregard the digital pre mode.. Was just trying it out vs dac mode. 

Quick question! How do I send it dsd? I'm running hqplayer and have all the settings just fine with my rockna dac, but when I change the Dave setting to DSD plus, it still shows PCM when music plays.

I'll try hooking up the mscaler later today if I have some free time. So, if the mscaler is connected, I just send it non upsampled music right and let it do all the work right?


----------



## ekfc63

I just PM’d you the excerpt from the manual


----------



## Roasty (Jan 18, 2021)

Thank you @simorag and @ekfc63 for the PMs and help/advice! Very much appreciated.





Managed to get the mscaler + Dave up and running.

Haven't done very much listening but am so far undecided if I like the mscaler + Dave combo.. I think I am leaning more towards Dave alone. Is that odd? I haven't read through this whole thread, but I do know of some folks who prefer Dave alone. Granted I do not have any storm bnc or other ferrite cable, and the mscaler is running of its stock power supply.

What I did enjoy quite a fair bit was the Dave + innuos phoenix combo. I will revisit this again a few days later after trying more Dave and Dave+mscaler.


----------



## ecwl

Roasty said:


> Thank you @simorag and @ekfc63 for the PMs and help/advice! Very much appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m curious what original music source you have that’s Yellow/88.2kHz. It’s just not the most common sample rate.


----------



## Roasty

ecwl said:


> I’m curious what original music source you have that’s Yellow/88.2kHz. It’s just not the most common sample rate.



Here you go! One of my favourite songs.


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jan 18, 2021)

Roasty said:


> Thank you @simorag and @ekfc63 for the PMs and help/advice! Very much appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The M-scaler is somewhat subtle, and it is sometimes hard determine exactly why it sounds better. But, I think it really does. I suggest listening to it for a couple of days and then remove it. I think you’ll hear the difference, and if you’re like many of us, you’ll probably like the DAVE/Mscaler combo more that a solo DAVE. The bnc cables do matter though, quite a lot actually. I use SOtM bnc, which also filters out RFI like the WAVE cables.

The DAVE with the WA33 is a very, very good match. The extremely detailed DAVE is perfect for a tube amp.


----------



## ecwl (Jan 18, 2021)

Roasty said:


> Here you go! One of my favourite songs.


Haha... That’s why neither M-Scaler nor DAVE Impress...
MQA has destroyed the transient accuracy so much, you can’t really hear how the improved M-Scaler/DAVE upsampling. Sadly, there is no non-MQA version available on Tidal. If you own the CD ripped on your Innuos, you should play the CD version instead off the M-Scaler. It should sound better than the MQA version you’re listening to.

Also, if you’re going to play the MQA version, it should sound slightly better if you turn on DAVE‘s HF Filter. Leave the DAVE HF filter off if your source is 44.1kHz/48kHz but leave it On if the source is above 48kHz.


----------



## Roasty

ecwl said:


> Haha... That’s why neither M-Scaler nor DAVE Impress...
> MQA has destroyed the transient accuracy so much, you can’t really hear how the improved M-Scaler/DAVE upsampling. Sadly, there is no non-MQA version available on Tidal. If you own the CD ripped on your Innuos, you should play the CD version instead off the M-Scaler. It should sound better than the MQA version you’re listening to.



Ah okok I have a non MQA non upsampled file on my nas somewhere. Let me go try that and see if i can make out a difference!


----------



## ekfc63

I once went to a demo at a dealer demoing the MScaler using a TT2.  Switching between MScaler / no MScaler was night and day to my cloth ears.

I’ve found that the improvements the MScaler makes are more discernible on my speaker system that my HP system.


----------



## Roasty

ecwl said:


> Haha... That’s why neither M-Scaler nor DAVE Impress...
> MQA has destroyed the transient accuracy so much, you can’t really hear how the improved M-Scaler/DAVE upsampling. Sadly, there is no non-MQA version available on Tidal. If you own the CD ripped on your Innuos, you should play the CD version instead off the M-Scaler. It should sound better than the MQA version you’re listening to.
> 
> Also, if you’re going to play the MQA version, it should sound slightly better if you turn on DAVE‘s HF Filter. Leave the DAVE HF filter off if your source is 44.1kHz/48kHz but leave it On if the source is above 48kHz.



I just have to highlight this post and thank you for the enlightenment! I turned off all MQA rendering/decoding/unfolding in Roon, and now it is just playing the 44.1khz 16 bit flac file (there is MQA authentication happening, but no rendering/conversion going on) and there is a whole new layer of detail that is now apparent.


----------



## iDesign

ecwl said:


> Sadly, there is no non-MQA version available on Tidal.


TIDAL appears to have a standard 32/44.1KHz version of this album in the US. As you pointed out, TIDAL has increasingly been posting new albums and retroactively reposting albums only in MQA format. This is one of the reasons I switched to Qobuz. I have not been active on Audiophile Style in several months and I’m not sure if users have continued to find MQA formatted albums uploaded to Qobuz after analyzing them.


----------



## JTbbb

iDesign said:


> TIDAL appears to have a standard 32/44.1KHz version of this album in the US. As you pointed out, TIDAL has increasingly been posting new albums and retroactively reposting albums only in MQA format. This is one of the reasons I switched to Qobuz. I have not been active on Audiophile Style in several months and I’m not sure if users have continued to find MQA formatted albums uploaded to Qobuz after analyzing them.



I also changed from Tidal to Qobuz for the same reasons. In fact I think I prefer to let Ms/Dave do it’s thing to ripped WAV files over and above hi-res Flac files. One footnote though, I do leave the HF filter off on Dave, and perhaps I might give more justice to hi-res Flac files with the filter on, but I just couldn’t be bothered to keep switching!


----------



## ecwl

Roasty said:


> I just have to highlight this post and thank you for the enlightenment! I turned off all MQA rendering/decoding/unfolding in Roon, and now it is just playing the 44.1khz 16 bit flac file (there is MQA authentication happening, but no rendering/conversion going on) and there is a whole new layer of detail that is now apparent.


Hmm... I actually rarely have MQA decode turned off so I just tried it now. Interesting.
I think this is how I conceptualizer MQA. It is a short tap-length filter designed to mimick good transient accuracy so it both “encodes”/filter the music with the MQA filter when downsampling and then when you play it back you’re “decoding” the music with the MQA filter.
So if the original recording is 96kHz 24-bit, it takes that signal and re-filters it using the MQA filter to 48kHz 24-bit but the 48kHz 24-bit actually is not a straightforward downsampling of 96kHz 24-bit original so the 48kHz 24-bit is actually altered in terms of transient accuracy. The hope is that when you then take the 48kHz 24-bit and upsample/filter it back to 96kHz 24-bit music, the MQA filter will restore it close to what the original 96kHz 24-bit original was.
The problem with these short tap length “imitation” filter as I like to call them is that the transient attack of each note can actually vary quite significantly. So some notes are reproduced with the right strike/pluck and transient but other notes are not. And once your ears pick up on it, it is infinitely annoying. And when DAVE/M-Scaler can accurately further upscale the music from 96kHz to 768kHz, the transient timing issues become super prominent.
So having just done a test listen with some albums where I own the original 96kHz 24-bit and can listen to Tidal MQA 48kHz 24-bit without decode and with MQA decoded back to 96kHz 24-bit, what I find is that the 48kHz 24-bit file played back the way @Roasty describes still has transient inaccuracies scattered all over the place... It’s just not as bad as if the track is fully decoded back to MQA 96kHz. I suspect this is because at least DAVE/M-Scaler at least restore the transient accuracy from the 48kHz to 96kHz stage. But the Tidal MQA 48kHz sounds nothing remotely close to the original 96kHz source.
Similarly, unfortunately, Tidal puts on a lot of MQA tracks that were taken from CD masters (44kHz 16-bit). I think in these situations, what MQA did was to run their own upsampler from 44kHz to 88kHz and then run the upsampled 88kHz through the MQA filter encoding process. As a result, once again, the resultant 44kHz 24-bit file actually is already littered with transient inaccuracies compared to the original 44kHz 16-bit file. And when played with the MQA decode to 88kHz, these inaccuracies are just even more prominently heard via DAVE and M-Scaler. 

At the end of the day, now that I’ve done this little experiment, i would still say if possible, this is the order I would listen to my source for DAVE+M-Scaler
1) Original high-res track if available
2) Original CD 44kHz version of the track
3) MQA 44kHz or 48kHz tracks without decode as @Roasty suggested
4) MQA decoded


----------



## sm60

ecwl said:


> Hmm... I actually rarely have MQA decode turned off so I just tried it now. Interesting.
> I think this is how I conceptualizer MQA. It is a short tap-length filter designed to mimick good transient accuracy so it both “encodes”/filter the music with the MQA filter when downsampling and then when you play it back you’re “decoding” the music with the MQA filter.
> So if the original recording is 96kHz 24-bit, it takes that signal and re-filters it using the MQA filter to 48kHz 24-bit but the 48kHz 24-bit actually is not a straightforward downsampling of 96kHz 24-bit original so the 48kHz 24-bit is actually altered in terms of transient accuracy. The hope is that when you then take the 48kHz 24-bit and upsample/filter it back to 96kHz 24-bit music, the MQA filter will restore it close to what the original 96kHz 24-bit original was.
> The problem with these short tap length “imitation” filter as I like to call them is that the transient attack of each note can actually vary quite significantly. So some notes are reproduced with the right strike/pluck and transient but other notes are not. And once your ears pick up on it, it is infinitely annoying. And when DAVE/M-Scaler can accurately further upscale the music from 96kHz to 768kHz, the transient timing issues become super prominent.
> ...


I think this jives with my experience as well, but I would go further and say that for me, a top notch CD transport into the M-scaler and Dave gives any of the high Rez albums I have a run for their money. I use the monumental TL0 belt drive transport from CEC, a two box affair with a separate suspended chassis belt-driven turntable with a separate power supply. The unscaled bits from my TL0 M-scaled and played back on the Dave sounds exceptionally good. Unlike most transports, the CEC does no upscaling or processing on its own. Rarely do I find any high Rez albums on Qobuz to be hugely better. In fact, most of the 96khz recordings of classical orchestral music on Qobuz sound to my ears horribly compressed. I think the sad reality of classical recordings these days is that most companies use dozens of microphones into a cheaply made  solid state mixer and equalize and compress the hell out of the sound. I attend a lot of San Francisco symphony concerts, often these are recorded live. I see several dozen microphones and instruments are closely miked. They record in DSD multichannel. Their Mahler series sounds dreadful. Compare Georg Solti’s legendary Decca analog recording of Mahler’s second symphony with any modern DSD recording. The first minute tells all. The piece begins with a powerful series of low bass chords, on the Solti recording you hear every double bass and cello growling in unison. On the later DSD recordings, you hear mush! By far, the very best classical recordings I have are the legendary Mercury Living Presence series on Philips remastered with ultimate care by Wilma Cozart Fine, the original producer,  from the original analog tube masters. The dynamic range of these recordings is stupendous. They were all made with just 3 microphones into a tube mixer and often used a 35mm film analog recorder. Compared to those 60+ year old recordings, my 600+ SACDs sound like AM radio. Squelched dynamics and often lackluster in harmonics. The earliest Telarc recordings made by Jack Renner also used just 3 microphones and sound infinitely better to my ears than their later compressed DSD recordings. With jazz and folk, it’s the same story. The earliest late 50s and 60s jazz masterpieces sound so much better to my ears than the newer crap.


----------



## alxw0w

My dealer was a bit faster and I received M Sacler couple of days ago 
Now I'm waiting for aluminium stand for the whole stack (just a random monitor stand).



And my current DIY cables:


The sound is just sublime ! 
And again I've experienced music slowing down and getting calmer with the m scaler. Bizarre feeling.


----------



## 118900

alxw0w said:


> Ok so here are a few of my words on switching from MTT2 to the Dave.
> 
> *Prologue*
> Lets start that I was using Chord dacs for some time. Started like ~2 years ago with Mojo - which was bought with no expectations whatsoever.
> ...


I need to stop reading stuff like this. I’ve only had my HTT2 since 23 dec and although it blows my mind reading about the Dave is beginning to worry me about spending money I don’t have......😜


----------



## alxw0w

juansan said:


> I need to stop reading stuff like this. I’ve only had my HTT2 since 23 dec and although it blows my mind reading about the Dave is beginning to worry me about spending money I don’t have......😜


Don't worry it's not like YOU HAVE TO CHANGE.
It's only valid when somebody is really thinking of taking his rig to another upgrade route. If you are happy with MTT2 - just leave it as it is.
TT2 gives you more flexibility when it comes to headphone matching or even driving loudspeakers directly.


----------



## iDesign (Jan 20, 2021)

ecwl said:


> Hmm... I actually rarely have MQA decode turned off so I just tried it now. Interesting.
> I think this is how I conceptualizer MQA. It is a short tap-length filter designed to mimick good transient accuracy so it both “encodes”/filter the music with the MQA filter when downsampling and then when you play it back you’re “decoding” the music with the MQA filter.
> So if the original recording is 96kHz 24-bit, it takes that signal and re-filters it using the MQA filter to 48kHz 24-bit but the 48kHz 24-bit actually is not a straightforward downsampling of 96kHz 24-bit original so the 48kHz 24-bit is actually altered in terms of transient accuracy. The hope is that when you then take the 48kHz 24-bit and upsample/filter it back to 96kHz 24-bit music, the MQA filter will restore it close to what the original 96kHz 24-bit original was.
> The problem with these short tap length “imitation” filter as I like to call them is that the transient attack of each note can actually vary quite significantly. So some notes are reproduced with the right strike/pluck and transient but other notes are not. And once your ears pick up on it, it is infinitely annoying. And when DAVE/M-Scaler can accurately further upscale the music from 96kHz to 768kHz, the transient timing issues become super prominent.
> ...


After I wrote my previous post, I began scrolling through my favorited TIDAL albums in Audirvana+ only to discover that about 1/4th of them have been replaced by MQA versions. In all of those instances TIDAL appears to no longer list a standard version of the album that can be manually selected. I cancelled my TIDAL subscription upon seeing this and its one of the many reasons I have not made significant investments into streaming audio which is down a dirt road. I didn’t expect MQA to be so aggressive in retroactively working through the TIDAL catalog. Very disappointing they don’t give users a choice.


----------



## Ciggavelli

iDesign said:


> After I wrote my previous post, I began scrolling through my favorited TIDAL albums in Audirvana+ only to discover that about 1/4th of them have been replaced by MQA versions. In all of those instances TIDAL appears to no longer list a standard version of the album that can be manually selected. I cancelled my TIDAL subscription upon seeing this and its one of the many reasons I have not made significant investments into streaming audio which is down a dirt road. I didn’t expect MQA to be so aggressive in retroactively working through the TIDAL catalog. Very disappointing they don’t give users a choice.


If you use Roon, sometimes you can select different versions of albums from Tidal. But yeah, I pay for Qobuz and Tidal for that one reason. I’d like to stick with only Qobuz, but their catalogue is missing a lot of albums I want (mostly in obscure metal, but also some hip-hop).


----------



## moemoney

Ciggavelli said:


> If you use Roon, sometimes you can select different versions of albums from Tidal. But yeah, I pay for Qobuz and Tidal for that one reason. I’d like to stick with only Qobuz, but their catalogue is missing a lot of albums I want (mostly in obscure metal, but also some hip-hop).


My question is in Tidal inside of Roon you have three option, one of which is to have MQA turned off. Wouldn’t that resolve all those issues?


----------



## iDesign (Jan 21, 2021)

Ciggavelli said:


> If you use Roon, sometimes you can select different versions of albums from Tidal. But yeah, I pay for Qobuz and Tidal for that one reason. I’d like to stick with only Qobuz, but their catalogue is missing a lot of albums I want (mostly in obscure metal, but also some hip-hop).





moemoney said:


> My question is in Tidal inside of Roon you have three option, one of which is to have MQA turned off. Wouldn’t that resolve all those issues?


Not in cases where TIDAL only has an MQA version of the album so it is then being converted. And their decision to replace and remove non-MQA versions is why I canceled my subscription. Roon, Audirvana+, and other apps allow you to see and manually select any of the formats available in your region. Unfortunately, in too many cases the only format available is MQA and it seems some major labels are adding all of their new albums exclusively in MQA format.

I agree that Qobuz is missing some albums from various artists and labels but it has come a long way since I was a beta user in the US. They’ve worked hard to onboard suppliers.


----------



## Ciggavelli

@ray-dude ‘s review of the DC4 external power supply for his DAVE is pretty great

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...-sound-application-pgi-tt-7-part-1-of-2-r973/

I’m so undecided on what to do next, regarding my dac. Do I use the DC4 on my DAVE and m-scaler, or do I buy a Mola Mola Tambaqui? Or should I be trying for the dCS dacs?

I wish I could audition them all, but that’s really not likely where I live and during Covid times.

I guess I’ll just stick to reading up on all these dac trends


----------



## ecwl

Ciggavelli said:


> @ray-dude ‘s review of the DC4 external power supply for his DAVE is pretty great
> https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...-sound-application-pgi-tt-7-part-1-of-2-r973/
> I’m so undecided on what to do next, regarding my dac. Do I use the DC4 on my DAVE and m-scaler, or do I buy a Mola Mola Tambaqui? Or should I be trying for the dCS dacs?


So you may or may not have seen my comment on the “why” DC4 sounds better in that article on Audiophile Style. Is it the power supply? Or is it the minimization of ground loop leakage current? I see you already have EtherRegen and lots of other gear to reduce the leakage current.
I was tempted to buy the EtherRegen at some point and kept upgrading my source. Mostly because I wanted a source plugged into the wall, rather than a battery powered iPad/laptop. But with every upgrade, I still hear a slightly difference between what my iPad directly into M-Scaler/DAVE sounds like compared to my wall-powered source although the difference kept getting smaller. I finally caved and asked Rob Watts for his opinion on the matter privately. And he suggested that I can try using the a USB-to-Toslink adaptor. And I happen to have an old Peachtree X1 lying around (which unfortunately cannot do >96kHz). So I tested it out and voila. It’s a bit of a nuisance to have to downsample the >96kHz sources to 88kHz/96kHz but those are rare tracks for me. 

So I would argue before getting Mola Mola Tambaqui or dCS Bartok (which are also switch-mode power supplies I think), try getting a decent (or even cheap Amazon) USB to Toslink converter first. In fact, I use the stock Toslink cable Chord provided (since the audiophile ones are often too big to plug into M-Scaler/DAVE).


----------



## Ciggavelli

ecwl said:


> So you may or may not have seen my comment on the “why” DC4 sounds better in that article on Audiophile Style. Is it the power supply? Or is it the minimization of ground loop leakage current? I see you already have EtherRegen and lots of other gear to reduce the leakage current.
> I was tempted to buy the EtherRegen at some point and kept upgrading my source. Mostly because I wanted a source plugged into the wall, rather than a battery powered iPad/laptop. But with every upgrade, I still hear a slightly difference between what my iPad directly into M-Scaler/DAVE sounds like compared to my wall-powered source although the difference kept getting smaller. I finally caved and asked Rob Watts for his opinion on the matter privately. And he suggested that I can try using the a USB-to-Toslink adaptor. And I happen to have an old Peachtree X1 lying around (which unfortunately cannot do >96kHz). So I tested it out and voila. It’s a bit of a nuisance to have to downsample the >96kHz sources to 88kHz/96kHz but those are rare tracks for me.
> 
> So I would argue before getting Mola Mola Tambaqui or dCS Bartok (which are also switch-mode power supplies I think), try getting a decent (or even cheap Amazon) USB to Toslink converter first. In fact, I use the stock Toslink cable Chord provided (since the audiophile ones are often too big to plug into M-Scaler/DAVE).


Interesting....I’m going to pick up a USB to Toslink tomorrow after doing some research. Thanks for the suggestion!


----------



## MatW

Ciggavelli said:


> @ray-dude ‘s review of the DC4 external power supply for his DAVE is pretty great
> 
> https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...-sound-application-pgi-tt-7-part-1-of-2-r973/
> 
> ...


Maybe just be happy with the great setup you've currently got?


----------



## thePhones

iDesign said:


> After I wrote my previous post, I began scrolling through my favorited TIDAL albums in Audirvana+ only to discover that about 1/4th of them have been replaced by MQA versions. In all of those instances TIDAL appears to no longer list a standard version of the album that can be manually selected. I cancelled my TIDAL subscription upon seeing this and its one of the many reasons I have not made significant investments into streaming audio which is down a dirt road. I didn’t expect MQA to be so aggressive in retroactively working through the TIDAL catalog. Very disappointing they don’t give users a choice.


The first few days of testing tidal streaming I found that it wasn't sounding as good as my HDtracks downloads and cd rips so I cancelled the test period after only 3 days or so.
After that I tried Qobuz and could't here a difference to my own collection. You only have a limited choice in albums but I really like the extra possibility of exploration of music and also buy albums that I really like. Qubuz streams in flac without any dsp (as far as I know), so no loudness normalization and so on...
Also if your main focus is classic and jazz then Qubuz is a good option. But still I like the feeling of owning my favorite music and I endet up buying more because I found such lovely albums on Qobuz. ☺️


----------



## Roasty

Posted this on the wavelight thread too..





comparing the Rockna Wavelight and the mscaler/Dave combo.

Both playing from the same Roon endpoint. Both playing the same songs, started at exactly the same time. XLR into inputs 1 and 2 on my wa33. So to change between the two dacs, I just flick the input selector switch (takes a split second..)

44.1khz into the rockna dac (innuos phoenix, Singxer su-6, i2s to rockna)
705.6khz from mscaler into Dave
Volume matched as close as I could get it (volume knob unchanged on the wa33, volume adjusted to near equal using the dac pre amp).

I am finding it nearly impossible to make out any difference at all.. If I was pressed to say, perhaps a super slight tinge more low end and slam on the Rockna, and a slight tinge more air/separation with the chord combo. But that's it. Can't make out any difference anywhere else..

Differences in setup with xlr and usb cables, and rockna setup has su-6 and i2s connection + innuos phoenix.


----------



## Amberlamps

iDesign said:


> After I wrote my previous post, I began scrolling through my favorited TIDAL albums in Audirvana+ only to discover that about 1/4th of them have been replaced by MQA versions. In all of those instances TIDAL appears to no longer list a standard version of the album that can be manually selected. I cancelled my TIDAL subscription upon seeing this and its one of the many reasons I have not made significant investments into streaming audio which is down a dirt road. I didn’t expect MQA to be so aggressive in retroactively working through the TIDAL catalog. Very disappointing they don’t give users a choice.



Atleast they got replaced with mqa versions, most of my qobuz playlists have loads of “track unavailable” next to them. They have totally ruined many a playlist, especially ones that are made up with entire albums in them.

One day they are there, the next they are not. That seems to sum up my musical experience these last few years, a broken TT2 and stolen music, meh w.t.f

alt.bin can be your saviour.


----------



## iDesign (Jan 21, 2021)

Amberlamps said:


> Atleast they got replaced with mqa versions, most of my qobuz playlists have loads of “track unavailable” next to them. They have totally ruined many a playlist, especially ones that are made up with entire albums in them.
> 
> One day they are there, the next they are not. That seems to sum up my musical experience these last few years, a broken TT2 and stolen music, meh w.t.f
> 
> alt.bin can be your saviour.


I’d prefer TIDAL add a “track unavailable MQA” option and ditch their tech.


----------



## ra990

Ciggavelli said:


> Interesting....I’m going to pick up a USB to Toslink tomorrow after doing some research. Thanks for the suggestion!


I just bought this to use with mScaler, trying to avoid as much EMI/RF as possible. It works well all the way to 192k. 
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07R8138XL - SMAKN Hi-Fi XMOS U208 USB to Coaxial / Optical SPDIF Convertor


----------



## alekc

Amberlamps said:


> Atleast they got replaced with mqa versions, most of my qobuz playlists have loads of “track unavailable” next to them. They have totally ruined many a playlist, especially ones that are made up with entire albums in them.
> 
> One day they are there, the next they are not. That seems to sum up my musical experience these last few years, a broken TT2 and stolen music, meh w.t.f
> 
> alt.bin can be your saviour.


Sorry to hear about your problems. Wish you all the best in 2021.

One of the reason I not only keep files but also love my upsampling cd transport is that CDs fails a lot less often than streaming services change their content without warnings.


----------



## doraymon

Guys I have requested a quote for a 2 XLR to 1 RCA cable to connect a REL T/5i sub to the Dave’s XLR out.

the cable manufacturer is asking me: “We ask for the manufacturer's recommended wiring information when going from a balanced to an unbalanced device (or vice versa). This is usually found in the manual for the device with the XLR connector.”

I couldn’t find anything on the manual, have you got any idea where I can find this information before I write to Chord and wait another 2 months to get a reply?


----------



## Rob Watts

So for XLR to single ended use pin 1 for gnd, pin 2 for pos or signal.


----------



## doraymon

Rob Watts said:


> So for XLR to single ended use pin 1 for gnd, pin 2 for pos or signal.


Thanks Rob, much faster than Chord indeed.


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## iDesign (Jan 23, 2021)

Rob Watts said:


> So for XLR to single ended use pin 1 for gnd, pin 2 for pos or signal.


Happy new year, Rob. Its great to see you posting in the DAVE thread and I think I can speak on behalf on everyone in saying, we don't take your years of freely sharing of information and presence on HeadFI for granted. We see you and we appreciate you.


----------



## HeeBroG

Rob Watts said:


> So for XLR to single ended use pin 1 for gnd, pin 2 for pos or signal.



Hi Rob. Is there any need to tie pin 1 and 3 together?


----------



## ra990

HeeBroG said:


> Hi Rob. Is there any need to tie pin 1 and 3 together?


Nope, you won't want to do that.


----------



## Jawed

Roasty said:


> Thank you @simorag and @ekfc63 for the PMs and help/advice! Very much appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


M Scaler should be placed far away from DAVE and all of your other hi-fi components. It emits a lot of radio noise and other components lose sound quality because of that noise. DAVE is particularly sensitive to the noise from M Scaler.

Place M Scaler as far away as the BNC cables allow, e.g. 1 metre. You can put it on the floor. Once it is installed and working correctly, there's no need to make any changes to its settings, so you can hide it away. Mine is in a cupboard.


----------



## Roasty

Jawed said:


> M Scaler should be placed far away from DAVE and all of your other hi-fi components. It emits a lot of radio noise and other components lose sound quality because of that noise. DAVE is particularly sensitive to the noise from M Scaler.
> 
> Place M Scaler as far away as the BNC cables allow, e.g. 1 metre. You can put it on the floor. Once it is installed and working correctly, there's no need to make any changes to its settings, so you can hide it away. Mine is in a cupboard.



Thanks for the advice!
I had to place them close to one another because a set of aftermarket bnc cables which my friend passed along with the units was only 0.5m long.
I'll try with the stock chord cables and try placing them farther apart.

A bit odd that most of the marketing pics show the tt2 stacked on top of the mscaler; is the tt2 not affected as much as the Dave?

So far, I think I am still preferring Dave without mscaler..


----------



## Jawed

penguin69 said:


> A bit odd that most of the marketing pics show the tt2 stacked on top of the mscaler; is the tt2 not affected as much as the Dave?


I've never had a chance to try.



> So far, I think I am still preferring Dave without mscaler..


Hopefully improved placement helps - with HMS close to DAVE the sound is brittle and I suspect that's the reason for your preference.

DAVE won't like being near mains transformers, either, so it's best kept separated from your other gear. But the top priority is keeping HMS away from every other part of your system.

While you're experimenting with the longer stock BNC cables, may I suggest that you lightly twist them together. Try with and without a twist to see if you find there's a difference.

When everything is optimised DAVE has a beautiful, liquid, refined, powerful, explosive sound.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Roasty said:


> So far, I think I am still preferring Dave without mscaler..



FWIW, you are not alone.


----------



## sm60

alekc said:


> Sorry to hear about your problems. Wish you all the best in 2021.
> 
> One of the reason I not only keep files but also love my upsampling cd transport is that CDs fails a lot less often than streaming services change their content without warnings.


Amen to that. I’m glad I still have my multiple thousand CD library collected over a 35 year period. On a top class non-oversampling transport fed into the M-Scaler input of my Blu2 into the Dave with the double BNC connection, my rebook collection has received a new lease on life. While I really like the convenience of Qobuz, I have no confidence in their staying power. The high end streaming business is hardly profitable. They might fold next week or last a decade. Hard to say. So I like to keep a hard copy of my music and while all my CDs and SACDs are ripped, I have little faith in the hard drive technology as well. The larger the drive, the faster it seems to fail. My first CD bought in 1985 still plays back perfectly. Optical storage is far superior in reliability to anything else I’ve used (as long as you don’t throw your CDs around like frisbees). I’m also disappointed with the sound from Roon. I think there’s too much processing going on under the hood and their upscaling makes things worse. I’d like a bit perfect mode where it turns off all processing.


----------



## jlbrach

MacedonianHero said:


> FWIW, you are not alone.


not alone but in the decided minority for sure


----------



## Uncle Monty (Jan 23, 2021)

Jawed said:


> M Scaler should be placed far away from DAVE and all of your other hi-fi components. It emits a lot of radio noise and other components lose sound quality because of that noise. DAVE is particularly sensitive to the noise from M Scaler.
> 
> Place M Scaler as far away as the BNC cables allow, e.g. 1 metre. You can put it on the floor. Once it is installed and working correctly, there's no need to make any changes to its settings, so you can hide it away. Mine is in a cupboard.


Is there anything you can place between the MScaler & DAVE if you don't have the option to space them far apart?

For example, could I cover the MScaler in some Faraday fabric etc?


----------



## sm60

Roasty said:


> Thanks for the advice!
> I had to place them close to one another because a set of aftermarket bnc cables which my friend passed along with the units was only 0.5m long.
> I'll try with the stock chord cables and try placing them farther apart.
> 
> ...


Upscaling is definitely somewhat subjective. It’s benefits are not demonstrable with measurements. Every upsampler review in Stereophile including the M-scaler, has been prefaced with the same caveats. The benefits are in the eye of the beholder. Even the original dCS upscaler, the Purcell, which I owned for a few years, introduced some artifacts. The sound was smoother but seemed to lose a bit of directness. The early Audio Research CD players used an up sampling DAC, but deliberately turned off the upsampler. Later ARC digital products, including their CD players and DACs, allow you to turn off upsampling. There’s a tendency in the digital world that the higher frequency you go in upsampling, the greater the benefits. For example, Roon lets you upsample everything to DSD 512 if you have a beefy enough processor in your media server. As in everything else, it’s a trade off and artifacts get progressively worse the higher the frequency in my experience. Or you get RF issues like with the M-scaler or the Blu 2, necessitating expensive shielded BNC cables. Is the game worth the candle?


----------



## gnomen

sm60 said:


> I’m also disappointed with the sound from Roon. I think there’s too much processing going on under the hood and their upscaling makes things worse.


I am surprised at this comment.  For those who do use digital files rather than CDs - a journey I have been on for the last decade - Roon is at the forefront of server software in what it can do.  It delivers an amazingly clean data stream as source.  Yes, it is possible to select options for digital processing and upscaling, but if you leave those off, as most of us Chord users would certainly choose, the core service is extremely good.  Plus all the richness of the information media on performers, files, content, composers etc.


----------



## jlbrach

roon is outstand IMHO


----------



## ecwl

sm60 said:


> Upscaling is definitely somewhat subjective. It’s benefits are not demonstrable with measurements. Every upsampler review in Stereophile including the M-scaler, has been prefaced with the same caveats. The benefits are in the eye of the beholder.


While I agree that upsampling is subjective to audiophiles and affected by other equipment factors, e.g. gear noise, I really don’t think people should lump all upsampling algorithms together. I personally think that good upsampling such as M-Scaler played through a transparent DAC such as DAVE in an optimal setup significantly improves transient accuracy and also timbral accuracy. Guitar plucks, piano strikes, drum strikes are much more realistic. To take an opposite of the spectrum (which surprisingly is not NOS R2R DAC but is) the MQA filter where the same melodic line coming from the same instrument in an orchestral piece actually sounds like the notes are struck differently because of the poor upsampling transient accuracy. Mathematically, different upsampling algorithms lead to different mathematical results. I think people can argue whether it’s audible or not. To me, it’s highly audible. That’s why I own DAVE & M-Scaler.
If you don’t hear any benefits, kudos, saves you some money...


----------



## ecwl

sm60 said:


> There’s a tendency in the digital world that the higher frequency you go in upsampling, the greater the benefits. For example, Roon lets you upsample everything to DSD 512 if you have a beefy enough processor in your media server. As in everything else, it’s a trade off and artifacts get progressively worse the higher the frequency in my experience.


I think once people start talking about upsampling to DSD256/512/1024, I’m not sure we are talking about the same upsampling anymore. Because you’re actually combining upsampling with noise shaping. And once again, there is good noise shaping and bad noise shaping. Even Chord Mojo to Hugo 2 to Hugo TT2 to DAVE has different levels of noise shaping once it takes the 16fs upsampling to 104MHz. Good noise shaping should reduce artifacts, lower noise floors, increase soundstage depth, improve transparency and reveal more micro details which to me enhances realism. Of course, once again, it would be affected by gear noise introduced to the system. Moreover, the DAC architecture has to be compatible with the method of noise shaping for optimal results. But I’m not sure that it’s as simple as higher frequency upsampling vs artifacts trade offs.


----------



## Rob Watts

HeeBroG said:


> Hi Rob. Is there any need to tie pin 1 and 3 together?



No never do that with electronic balanced outputs - you will short the negative output amplifier. That could damage the DAC and will certainly degrade sound quality.


----------



## Dipesh

I got my Chord Dave few weeks ago. Currently I am running Innous Zenith Mk3 - Chord Dave - AmpsandSound Nautilus - Susvara. I am debating if i should be adding M scaler.
Please advice


----------



## Jawed

Uncle Monty said:


> Is there anything you can place between the MScaler & DAVE if you don't have the option to space them far apart?
> 
> For example, could I cover the MScaler in some Faraday fabric etc?


I suppose you could try something like this:

EMI/RFI Absorbers - 3M™ | DigiKey

But I have no idea about the efficacy. Presumably, like ferrites, these sheets "add up" if you layer them. Wrapping M Scaler tightly in this stuff might make it get too hot, but mine has always ran far cooler than DAVE, even on the hottest days of summer, so I doubt heat will be a problem. Rob uses his tucked into a bag when he's on a flight...

Honestly, I think your solution is simpler: place the M Scaler on the floor as far away as possible from the rest of your hi-fi. Maybe not next to the switched mode power supply module which is probably on the floor... Sure, it reduces the "perceived value effect" of your hi-fi, but if you find the sound quality uplift is important to you then why compromise? 

If nothing else, if you decide to try RF absorber sheets, then a comparison against HMS placed on the floor will help you to decide whether the sheets are working. Putting it on the floor even temporarily will certainly help you to determine whether you should even bother with this tweak.


----------



## TheAttorney (Jan 24, 2021)

Uncle Monty said:


> Is there anything you can place between the MScaler & DAVE if you don't have the option to space them far apart?
> For example, could I cover the MScaler in some Faraday fabric etc?



I've been testing 3M's AB-5100HF and SHF EMI/RFI absorbing sheets. There is some science behind this product as 3M is not a hifi company.
It's available in different sizes, but I've used the 1mm-thick A4 sheets. Quite pricey at around £40-50 per sheet.
The SHF variant has slightly better overall performance, especially below 1Ghz, but the HF does better above 2Ghz and is slightly cheaper.
In the tests below, I didn't notice any difference between HF and SHF, so would just go for the cheaper one, but probably best (and double the price) is to join the two together.

I originally bought some to line the inside of my NUC server (as some audiophiles have recommended in the past), but didn't notice much difference (hard to do A/B tests so can't be certain). I then tried putting a sheet onto DAVE and HMS, and on top of my cable spaghetti, again without noticing much difference.
But then I put some at the back of DAVE and HMS on top of the connectors - and that did seem to give a subtle improvement, with a slightly smoother, less edgy sound.

With a bit more experimentation, and driven by my OCD nature, I felt the following did give subtle improvements (this with HMS placed 2 thick wooden shelves below DAVE on my hifi rack):

* A full A4 sheet under DAVE, a surprisingly tidy fit, with the excess sheet underneath the rear connectors. Note, this may impact the vibration control if you use hard footers.
* Cut sections to cover the connectors of every component. (EDIT: 1 piece across the full width to protect all sockets).
* Cut sections to cover all of DAVE's top ventilation holes. Safety warning here, although it only marginally increased my DAVE's temperature in my environment. Note that I have an HRS DPX damper plate that already covers the holes on DAVE's LHS, so I only needed a small curved piece for the holes behind the display. The damper plate sounded better than the sheet, and putting the sheet over the damper plate made no difference. Note I always put DAVE into standby overnight, so no risk of overheating when I'm not looking.
* Cut sections across the front controls of HMS. This had the additional benefit of blocking the bright lights when I'm listening in near-darkness.
* A section to loosely cover the top and sides of my fanless NUC server. I would only risk this because my NUC is very cool running. Do not do this on any hot-running component.

When changes are this subtle, I'm fully aware that results can be impacted by Imagination and Expectation Bias.
Nevertheless, every time I tried to remove one of the above, usually from the top of DAVE's ventilation holes or HMS front controls (as these are the most aesthetically impactful), then the OCD part of my brain would force me to put them back again, because the sound got just that tiny bit thinner and edgier.

Sometimes removing one of the sheets seemed to make the sound a bit clearer and more dynamic, so maybe one can overdo this sort of thing, and maybe it's just imagination. Life can be tough being a dedicated audiophile  .


----------



## TheAttorney (Jan 24, 2021)

Jawed said:


> Honestly, I think your solution is simpler: place the M Scaler on the floor as far away as possible from the rest of your hi-fi. Maybe not next to the switched mode power supply module which is probably on the floor... Sure, it reduces the "perceived value effect" of your hi-fi, but if you find the sound quality uplift is important to you then why compromise?



I'm sure distancing HMS would help, but HMS is not the only thing that causes RFI, and DAVE is not the only thing that is affected by RFI.
And for some users, me included, separating hifi is not a practical or WAF-friendly option. I specifically want my hifi to be concentrated in one corner, although I did at least put HMS 2 shelves below DAVE - as far as my 0.6M BNC cables would allow.

WRT placement, vibration control matters for both DAVE and HMS, so placing on the floor is a step back in that regards - unless extra precautions are taken. I can't say whether vibration control is more or less important than RFI control. But I can say that the affects are cumulative, i.e. you have to sort out both to get the best out of any component.


----------



## lovethatsound

Dipesh said:


> I got my Chord Dave few weeks ago. Currently I am running Innous Zenith Mk3 - Chord Dave - AmpsandSound Nautilus - Susvara. I am debating if i should be adding M scaler.
> Please advice


Your be better off,getting the innous Phoenix,you'll never look back.


----------



## Dipesh

lovethatsound said:


> Your be better off,getting the innous Phoenix,you'll never look back.


Really , do you run one in your chain


----------



## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> I've been testing 3M's AB-5100HF and SHF EMI/RFI absorbing sheets. There is some science behind this product as 3M is not a hifi company.
> It's available in different sizes, but I've used the 1mm-thick A4 sheets. Quite pricey at around £40-50 per sheet.
> The SHF variant has slightly better overall performance, especially below 1Ghz, but the HF does better above 2Ghz and is slightly cheaper.
> In the tests below, I didn't notice any difference between HF and SHF, so would just go for the cheaper one, but probably best (and double the price) is to join the two together.
> ...



Your comments are very opportune because I have this morning been looking inside a Innuos Zenith and comparing it to the Statement which has what I now realise from your post to be 3M RFI EMI absorbing sheets stuck over its sensitive components including the SSD, RAM etc etc.

I think it is time to buy some 3M sheets and get my scissors out.


----------



## Glossator

Triode User said:


> Your comments are very opportune because I have this morning been looking inside a Innuos Zenith and comparing it to the Statement which has what I now realise from your post to be 3M RFI EMI absorbing sheets stuck over its sensitive components including the SSD, RAM etc etc.
> 
> I think it is time to buy some 3M sheets and get my scissors out.


How interesting - Nick, good luck with it:  please do report back (I am sure I am not only one interested in how a Zenith responds) ....


----------



## Uncle Monty

Jawed said:


> I suppose you could try something like this:
> 
> EMI/RFI Absorbers - 3M™ | DigiKey
> 
> ...


Do you think this, wrapped around the MScaler, might work? Could wrap the DAVE too, though mine gets hot.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0895LTG3V/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## TheAttorney

Triode User said:


> Your comments are very opportune because I have this morning been looking inside a Innuos Zenith and comparing it to the Statement which has what I now realise from your post to be 3M RFI EMI absorbing sheets stuck over its sensitive components including the SSD, RAM etc etc.



As part of my NUC inner-lining exercise. I did cover the RAM and one or two other components with this 3M stuff. I didn't hear much difference. Which doesn't mean there wasn't any - just that it was too subtle for me at that point in time. If you have easier access to your server than I had to mine, you will have better chance of A/Bing.  

Some other practical things about the 3M sheet:

*It is totally electrically non-conductive on all sides (I checked with a multi-meter). So safe to stick on anything from that point of view. But it will probably make hot items hotter.
*One side is mildly sticky - if you peel back the protective backing.
*In deepest rabbit-hole territory, I did sometime think the protective backing didn't help SQ, depending on which way up - crazy I know. There's no end to this madness!
*The sticky side looks harmless in terms of leaving a residue, but just in case, I stuck 2 sheets together when they were placed on the outside surface of any expensive enclosure.
*On the digikey uk site, for HF only (not SHF), there was a sheet size that was fractionally smaller than A4, but with a proportionally significantly lower price. I don't know why, but when I compared the two, they both looked identical apart from the tiniest difference in size. Things may have changed since a year ago when I last looked.


----------



## jlbrach

Jawed said:


> I suppose you could try something like this:
> 
> EMI/RFI Absorbers - 3M™ | DigiKey
> 
> ...


so I am a bit confused, I own the blu2 with my dave and when they were sold together so were the stands that kept them one on top of the other with a few inches of breathing room?


----------



## TheAttorney

Uncle Monty said:


> Do you think this, wrapped around the MScaler, might work? Could wrap the DAVE too, though mine gets hot.



I don't know it it will work or not, but the key thing is that it is a_ shield,_ whereas the 3M sheet is an _absorber_. 
So in the general sense, only the 3M will be of use_ inside_ any component. The shield will reflect and therefore make matters worse.

WRT to outside DAVE, it depends if some of the RFI is already inside DAVE, or already inside the cables/connectors, in which case a shield won't help at all, but it will probably help if the RFI is primarily from outside in the air. I really don't know, so someone needs to try to be sure. I've given up trying to use science to predict an outcome in high end audio .


----------



## TheAttorney

jlbrach said:


> so I am a bit confused, I own the blu2 with my dave and when they were sold together so were the stands that kept them one on top of the other with a few inches of breathing room?


Don't worry about it. Just some mad audiophiles getting the last bit of performance out of their hifi.
Most designers believe their products are already sufficiently immune to this and that. And some audiophiles beg to differ. It's always been like that


----------



## Uncle Monty

Ted, I'm going mad.


----------



## lovethatsound

Dipesh said:


> Really , do you run one in your chain


Yes I do,one of the best upgrades I've ever made,you can hear the difference straight away it's magical.


----------



## Dipesh

lovethatsound said:


> Yes I do,one of the best upgrades I've ever made,you can hear the difference straight away it's magical.


Umm ok


----------



## griff500

TheAttorney said:


> I've been testing 3M's AB-5100HF and SHF EMI/RFI absorbing sheets. There is some science behind this product as 3M is not a hifi company.
> It's available in different sizes, but I've used the 1mm-thick A4 sheets. Quite pricey at around £40-50 per sheet.
> The SHF variant has slightly better overall performance, especially below 1Ghz, but the HF does better above 2Ghz and is slightly cheaper.
> In the tests below, I didn't notice any difference between HF and SHF, so would just go for the cheaper one, but probably best (and double the price) is to join the two together.


Hoer-Wege offer a power supply upgrade and it includes this stuff to put over the PSU and also over the other board in my Auralic Aries G2.


----------



## sm60

gnomen said:


> I am surprised at this comment.  For those who do use digital files rather than CDs - a journey I have been on for the last decade - Roon is at the forefront of server software in what it can do.  It delivers an amazingly clean data stream as source.  Yes, it is possible to select options for digital processing and upscaling, but if you leave those off, as most of us Chord users would certainly choose, the core service is extremely good.  Plus all the richness of the information media on performers, files, content, composers etc.


Don’t get me wrong. I love the convenience of Roon and have a lifetime membership. It certainly beats what music listening used to be 35 years ago as a grad student, when I used to go to Princeton Record Exchange to buy used vinyl for my weekly playlist. Now, I sit in the comfort of my sofa and with a swish of my iPad, I can select among millions of tracks. How can you argue with that not being progress?

But from the standpoint of pure sonic pleasure, things are a bit less straightforward, ignoring convenience. Over the past 30 odd years, I have owned a dazzling variety of Hi-Fi, from budget stuff to exorbitantly priced stuff. Along this long journey, I have had to swallow my quantitative engineering pride and admit there’s more to high end audio than what simple frequency response and Fourier analysis gets you. The ear is an astonishingly perceptive instrument. At the maximally sensitive portion of our hearing, consider that the diaphragm of your ear moves less than the width of a hydrogen atom! You wonder how the brain could possibly decode a signal from such a small movement, but shockingly it does.

My purely subjective personal ranking of front end source components from several decades of listening is as follows, in decreasing order of quality:

1. Vinyl records on a top flight turntable and arm with a high end phono preamplifier. 
2. Top notch CD transport into a top notch DAC with a separate master clock. 
3. SACD transport into a high end DAC with both clocked externally. 
4. Music server running on a PC playing through USB into a DAC (high Rez or red book).

So, Roon wins on convenience for sure, but at least for me, not in the sense of absolute best-money-can-buy Sonics. I’ll add the caveat that so far I have yet to invest in a high end server like the Innous statement or an Aurender W20. My Roon runs on a simple budget Intel NUC, feeding to the M-scaler on my Blu2 through USB. Regardless of what I play on Roon, on the best recorded Redbook jazz or classical, it cannot compete with my CEC TL0 belt drive CD transport. That’s my subjective assessment over many months and years of listening.  That’s why I haven’t gotten rid of my CDs, even though they occupy a lot of space in my house.


----------



## Triode User

sm60 said:


> Don’t get me wrong. I love the convenience of Roon and have a lifetime membership. It certainly beats what music listening used to be 35 years ago as a grad student, when I used to go to Princeton Record Exchange to buy used vinyl for my weekly playlist. Now, I sit in the comfort of my sofa and with a swish of my iPad, I can select among millions of tracks. How can you argue with that not being progress?
> 
> But from the standpoint of pure sonic pleasure, things are a bit less straightforward, ignoring convenience. Over the past 30 odd years, I have owned a dazzling variety of Hi-Fi, from budget stuff to exorbitantly priced stuff. Along this long journey, I have had to swallow my quantitative engineering pride and admit there’s more to high end audio than what simple frequency response and Fourier analysis gets you. The ear is an astonishingly perceptive instrument. At the maximally sensitive portion of our hearing, consider that the diaphragm of your ear moves less than the width of a hydrogen atom! You wonder how the brain could possibly decode a signal from such a small movement, but shockingly it does.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately for me Roon is a cause for joy and and sadness all at the same time. Its interface and ease of use is wonderful but its incessant chattering back to the mothership (and the way that it transfers files) causes me great sadness due to the degraded sound quality when using Roon. Even having Roon on a separate server isolated from the player does not solve it.

Discussions on this pop up here and there and if you are interested this just one recent *post* on audiophilestyle describing the issue.

Perhaps try other methods of playing your ripped files to the Blu2. You might be surprised at the improvement and it might make you revise the running order in your table of preferred system options.


----------



## Jawed

Uncle Monty said:


> Do you think this, wrapped around the MScaler, might work? Could wrap the DAVE too, though mine gets hot.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0895LTG3V/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Honestly, I have no idea whether it's worthwhile. The price is in the "why not try" category.

Before you even try any of these things, first move the M Scaler far away. If that makes no difference for you then you can forget about these other tweaks.



jlbrach said:


> so I am a bit confused, I own the blu2 with my dave and when they were sold together so were the stands that kept them one on top of the other with a few inches of breathing room?


When I listened to a Blu 2 with DAVE stack using the Chord stand (i.e. placed closed together), I thought Blu 2 + DAVE sounded worse than DAVE alone. But then, this was with simple BNC cables. So I can't say which was the primary contributor to spoiling the sound: spacing or cabling.

I was under the impression the stand is solely for looks, not performance. I use 3x IsoAcoustics Orea under DAVE.

As far as I can tell, no one on this thread so far has tried the Tungsten Grooves feet:

Tungsten Grooves W70-H47 | Trade in Available | Nintronics.co.uk - Nintronics 

The concept is spectacular. So is the price... They seem to work:


----------



## Malcyg

Triode User said:


> Unfortunately for me Roon is a cause for joy and and sadness all at the same time. Its interface and ease of use is wonderful but its incessant chattering back to the mothership (and the way that it transfers files) causes me great sadness due to the degraded sound quality when using Roon.



This is an interesting comment Nick. What is this ‘chattering’ that you refer to and how does it manifest itself in ways that you can apparently hear quite clearly? What other sources have you used that sound significantly better enough for you to have observed this? I am asking because there was a time when I would have agreed with you, but I now find that with the Statement using the Squeezebox option, Roon sounds very good in my setup. I suspect that you may be referring to noise coming from the processor and internal electrics of the Statement, but am interested in exactly what and how.

My own mild obsession with reducing the ‘noise’ in my system began 6-7 years ago with the purchase of a Melco N1-A and largely ended (clearly, there is room for manoeuvre here!) a couple of years back with the purchase of the Statement. There is also a lot of ‘stuff’ in between of course, as I gradually discovered that ’noise’ was actually quite a complicated subject which took many different forms, but I did finally reach a point where I could no longer hear any adverse elements in my music system and the digital plague that had troubled my ears for so many years was finally eliminated and I do not detect that Roon is holding me back

I moved house a couple of years ago and the house was built around 16 years ago with an electrical and Ethernet installation undertaken by a professional installer of whole house systems. The degree of improvement in my system that I experienced due to the quality of this electrical installation was quite astonishing and unexpected. I already knew from experience that there could be significant differences in peoples preferences, their ears, their equipment, synergies, their installation, cables, isolation, power supplies, servers and so on but a well designed professional electrical installation now seemed to have as big an effect, if not substantially more so, than anything I had heard to date. So my own experience of refining down in ever decreasing circles has led me to believe that there can be so many reasons why people hear what they hear or, alternatively, don’t hear things that others hear and it is generally too simplistic to blame any one single item.

People that hear my system are always completely blown away. I have recently received messages and photo’s from 3 friends who were so impressed and inspired after listening to mine that they went away determined to build their own system and have proudly sent me photo’s of how they are getting on. They all commented that the music sounded so real and brought back all of the fun and enjoyment that got them into music in the first place years ago. That’s what it’s all about after all isn’t it? I really dislike having to test stuff out as I find it to be very fatiguing, so I actually feel very happy that I haven’t had to tinker with my main system at all for over a couple of years now. The only thing that might tempt me back is Dave II. 😉

Correction - I have actually undertaken a fair degree of headphone system tinkering, but that’s a different thing entirely. 😂


----------



## Triode User

Malcyg said:


> This is an interesting comment Nick. What is this ‘chattering’ that you refer to and how does it manifest itself in ways that you can apparently hear quite clearly? What other sources have you used that sound significantly better enough for you to have observed this? I am asking because there was a time when I would have agreed with you, but I now find that with the Statement using the Squeezebox option, Roon sounds very good in my setup. I suspect that you may be referring to noise coming from the processor and internal electrics of the Statement, but am interested in exactly what and how.
> 
> My own mild obsession with reducing the ‘noise’ in my system began 6-7 years ago with the purchase of a Melco N1-A and largely ended (clearly, there is room for manoeuvre here!) a couple of years back with the purchase of the Statement. There is also a lot of ‘stuff’ in between of course, as I gradually discovered that ’noise’ was actually quite a complicated subject which took many different forms, but I did finally reach a point where I could no longer hear any adverse elements in my music system and the digital plague that had troubled my ears for so many years was finally eliminated and I do not detect that Roon is holding me back
> 
> ...



Hi Malc, Have you tried the Statement with iPeng as a comparison with Roon? For me that provided a stark illustration of what Roon was doing to the playback.

Innuos are well aware of the effects of Roon on sound quality. Not all of this is the chattering I mentioned but also because Roon defeats the ability of the Statement to fully load the whole track to RAM and play back from RAM without further reading of the SSD mid track (when Roon is used only a small part of the track is loaded to RAM and it needs topping up all the way through the playback - this is even in 'Experimental mode'). Also there is the Roon chattering where it is communicating with Roon HQ and this communication traffic through the Statement has a knock on effect on sound quality. Then there is the further issue of how Roon handles the file playback. It would be fine if Roon was working like iPeng and just gave instructions as to which track was to be played but it appears that it doesn't. In the post on Audiophile Style that I linked to earlier, Nenon posted,

"_Roon does not just serve the URL to an external program. It does a lot more than that that deteriorates the sound quality no matter where you run it or how you isolate it. Your idea to have Roon just handle the URL and shutdown any other activity is great. Unfortunately Roon has no desire to make such changes... or any changes that significantly improve the SQ. They have different priorities. Many of us have tried to convince them to do things to improve the sound quality but they have been ignorant and arrogant for the most part. That's their loss. New and much better software is coming up and replacing Roon in many high-end systems. The interface will slowly catch up over time._"

I bought Roon lifetime a couple of years ago but it is relegated to the kitchen system for the moment.


----------



## Malcyg (Jan 25, 2021)

Triode User said:


> Hi Malc, Have you tried the Statement with iPeng as a comparison with Roon? For me that provided a stark illustration of what Roon was doing to the playback.
> 
> Innuos are well aware of the effects of Roon on sound quality. Not all of this is the chattering I mentioned but also because Roon defeats the ability of the Statement to fully load the whole track to RAM and play back from RAM without further reading of the SSD mid track (when Roon is used only a small part of the track is loaded to RAM and it needs topping up all the way through the playback - this is even in 'Experimental mode'). Also there is the Roon chattering where it is communicating with Roon HQ and this communication traffic through the Statement has a knock on effect on sound quality. Then there is the further issue of how Roon handles the file playback. It would be fine if Roon was working like iPeng and just gave instructions as to which track was to be played but it appears that it doesn't. In the post on Audiophile Style that I linked to earlier, Nenon posted,
> 
> ...



Interesting Nick, thank you for the quick response. I did try that a couple of years ago and I did find it superior to Roon but not necessarily to Blu II as a source. I have always used Blu II CD as my yardstick and once I’d beaten that, I considered the job done. In the past, there has always been an observable ‘digital’ element which presented itself as a slightly hard edged brightness which I found fatiguing whereas what I have now is warm and relaxing whilst still delivering great clarity and detail. This may have been a case of ignorance is bliss for me. 😁


----------



## Lgn3

Triode User said:


> Hi Malc, Have you tried the Statement with iPeng as a comparison with Roon? For me that provided a stark illustration of what Roon was doing to the playback.
> 
> Innuos are well aware of the effects of Roon on sound quality. Not all of this is the chattering I mentioned but also because Roon defeats the ability of the Statement to fully load the whole track to RAM and play back from RAM without further reading of the SSD mid track (when Roon is used only a small part of the track is loaded to RAM and it needs topping up all the way through the playback - this is even in 'Experimental mode'). Also there is the Roon chattering where it is communicating with Roon HQ and this communication traffic through the Statement has a knock on effect on sound quality. Then there is the further issue of how Roon handles the file playback. It would be fine if Roon was working like iPeng and just gave instructions as to which track was to be played but it appears that it doesn't. In the post on Audiophile Style that I linked to earlier, Nenon posted,
> 
> ...



Did you observe the same with the Antipodes K50 ? That Squeezelite was superior to Roon ?


----------



## Triode User

Lgn3 said:


> Did you observe the same with the Antipodes K50 ? That Squeezelite was superior to Roon ?



Yes.


----------



## sm60

Malcyg said:


> Interesting Nick, thank you for the quick response. I did try that a couple of years ago and I did find it superior to Roon but not necessarily to Blu II as a source. I have always used Blu II CD as my yardstick and once I’d beaten that, I considered the job done. In the past, there has always been an observable ‘digital’ element which presented itself as a slightly hard edged brightness which I found fatiguing whereas what I have now is warm and relaxing whilst still delivering great clarity and detail. This may have been a case of ignorance is bliss for me. 😁


If Blu 2 is your current best source, boy are you missing out! There’s a whole new level you can reach with better digital transports. I’ve tried many over the years, far too many to list. But my current player is the ultra Uber CEC TL0 two box transport with a belt driven suspended chassis unit connected by an umbilical cord to a massive power supply. This completely blows away the Blu2 in my system. I lucked out a few years ago when I bought the CEC TL0 on eBay for significantly less than what Chord charges for the Blu2. It was the best decision I made. Fortunately the CEC authorized repair center is just a few minutes driving distance from my house in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is convenient.
I would keep a lookout for the CEC models on eBay or Audiogon. Avoid the cheaper models, they are not as well made. The TL1 is more easily available but not as resolving as the TL0. There’s a new version of the TL0 Mk3 available that seems mostly a minor variant of my earlier model. Even my wife, who is not an audiophile by any means and usually listens to music as background can almost instantly tell me when I’m playing a CD through the CEC. Of course the M-scaler in the Blu2 and the Dave play their role in this system as well.

Ofher choices: the Levinson 31.5 comes up often and is a bargain for the level of performance and build quality. Avoid the cheaper 37, which has an unreliable drawer mechanism. The higher end Esoteric models are worth considering, and a few years ago I owned the P03. It’s not as good as the CEC TL0.


----------



## ekfc63

sm60 said:


> If Blu 2 is your current best source, boy are you missing out! There’s a whole new level you can reach with better digital transports. I’ve tried many over the years, far too many to list. But my current player is the ultra Uber CEC TL0 two box transport with a belt driven suspended chassis unit connected by an umbilical cord to a massive power supply. This completely blows away the Blu2 in my system. I lucked out a few years ago when I bought the CEC TL0 on eBay for significantly less than what Chord charges for the Blu2. It was the best decision I made. Fortunately the CEC authorized repair center is just a few minutes driving distance from my house in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is convenient.
> I would keep a lookout for the CEC models on eBay or Audiogon. Avoid the cheaper models, they are not as well made. The TL1 is more easily available but not as resolving as the TL0. There’s a new version of the TL0 Mk3 available that seems mostly a minor variant of my earlier model. Even my wife, who is not an audiophile by any means and usually listens to music as background can almost instantly tell me when I’m playing a CD through the CEC. Of course the M-scaler in the Blu2 and the Dave play their role in this system as well.
> 
> Ofher choices: the Levinson 31.5 comes up often and is a bargain for the level of performance and build quality. Avoid the cheaper 37, which has an unreliable drawer mechanism. The higher end Esoteric models are worth considering, and a few years ago I owned the P03. It’s not as good as the CEC TL0.



I don't know if you're also using a server but am wondering how CD's ripped to the hard drive on a server would compare to a CD played using your CEC transport.


----------



## Malcyg

sm60 said:


> If Blu 2 is your current best source, boy are you missing out! There’s a whole new level you can reach with better digital transports. I’ve tried many over the years, far too many to list. But my current player is the ultra Uber CEC TL0 two box transport with a belt driven suspended chassis unit connected by an umbilical cord to a massive power supply. This completely blows away the Blu2 in my system. I lucked out a few years ago when I bought the CEC TL0 on eBay for significantly less than what Chord charges for the Blu2. It was the best decision I made. Fortunately the CEC authorized repair center is just a few minutes driving distance from my house in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is convenient.
> I would keep a lookout for the CEC models on eBay or Audiogon. Avoid the cheaper models, they are not as well made. The TL1 is more easily available but not as resolving as the TL0. There’s a new version of the TL0 Mk3 available that seems mostly a minor variant of my earlier model. Even my wife, who is not an audiophile by any means and usually listens to music as background can almost instantly tell me when I’m playing a CD through the CEC. Of course the M-scaler in the Blu2 and the Dave play their role in this system as well.
> 
> Ofher choices: the Levinson 31.5 comes up often and is a bargain for the level of performance and build quality. Avoid the cheaper 37, which has an unreliable drawer mechanism. The higher end Esoteric models are worth considering, and a few years ago I owned the P03. It’s not as good as the CEC TL0.



That is interesting info, thanks. The Blu II is not my best source, the Statement is and I don’t use the CD transport. I previously had an MBL 1521A CD transport which was excellent and that was better in isolation compared to the Blu II but, when used with Blu Dave, there was little difference so I let it go.


----------



## Lgn3

Triode User said:


> Yes.


Thanks. When I get round to installing a new O.S. on my streamer I will compare the two players.


----------



## Darkliner

Roasty said:


> Posted this on the wavelight thread too..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I noticed you are using xlr cables to connect dave/mscaler to wa33.  Sometime ago i tested xlr vs rca outputs from dave to wa33 and found that rca is actually superior to xlr.  Of course this is my personal opinion and i was able to use the same grade of cable for xlr and rca.  This is something you might wanna try out.


----------



## Sampajanna

Nick, Do you think the iPeng vs Roon applies to streaming via Qobuz/Tidal or more to do with tracks on the hard drive?


----------



## Triode User

Sampajanna said:


> Nick, Do you think the iPeng vs Roon applies to streaming via Qobuz/Tidal or more to do with tracks on the hard drive?



With the Innuos it is really to do with playing tracks from the hard drive because when playing from the hard drive with iPeng or Squeezebox the Innuos player loads the whole track to RAM for playing and that gives the best sound quality. With streaming Qobuz/Tidal it cannot load the whole track to RAM in any case.

However, don't forget that there is still the issue with Roon of all the extra traffic it creates from communicating with Roon HQ whilst playing.


----------



## grokit

Darkliner said:


> Sometime ago i tested xlr vs rca outputs from dave to wa33 and found that rca is actually superior to xlr.  Of course this is my personal opinion and i was able to use the same grade of cable for xlr and rca.


Interesting, because in WA22 country there is a consensus that xlr is superior to rca. But I've found that when using my Qutest it sounds better out of balanced headphones, compared to when they are plugged into the 1/4" socket. This was unexpected, and needs more exploration on my part. More of a topic for a Woo thread though.


----------



## Darkliner

grokit said:


> Interesting, because in WA22 country there is a consensus that xlr is superior to rca. But I've found that when using my Qutest it sounds better out of balanced headphones, compared to when they are plugged into the 1/4" socket. This was unexpected, and needs more exploration on my part. More of a topic for a Woo thread though.



Well im referring to the inputs from dave to wa33 here rather than the outputs from wa33 to headphones.  The balanced outputs from wa33 definitely sounds better than the 1/4" socket.


----------



## Malcyg

Darkliner said:


> Well im referring to the inputs from dave to wa33 here rather than the outputs from wa33 to headphones.  The balanced outputs from wa33 definitely sounds better than the 1/4" socket.



I agree with you and have always found RCA SE output from Dave to sound better than XLR and I do usually prefer SE generally. Having said that, I can appreciate why some people might prefer the way music is presented using the XLR balanced out of Dave and I would guess, from anecdotal feedback, that more people might actually be using balanced than SE, despite Dave being a single ended design. One has to account for gear, ears and preference as ever which is why there is often no universal ‘right way’ to do things and people can often disagree. Disagreement can be good and I have changed tack a couple of times on my route due to someone challenging my thinking. It’s when people insist that they are right that things can get out of hand a bit.


----------



## moemoney

grokit said:


> Interesting, because in WA22 country there is a consensus that xlr is superior to rca. But I've found that when using my Qutest it sounds better out of balanced headphones, compared to when they are plugged into the 1/4" socket. This was unexpected, and needs more exploration on my part. More of a topic for a Woo thread though.


But the WA 22 Is a balance amp.


----------



## grokit (Jan 26, 2021)

moemoney said:


> But the WA 22 Is a balance amp.


Right, but it accepts both rca and xlr. It has an internal transformer, that also makes it single-ended. Just sharing what I'm hearing.


----------



## grokit (Jan 26, 2021)

grokit said:


> More of a topic for a Woo thread though.


----------



## grokit (Jan 26, 2021)

.


----------



## PortableAudioLover

Hello folks,
Does anybody here have a 1266 Phi TC paired with DAVE that can briefly share with me the experiences playing with it ? Does it sound fine straight out of DAVE ? I mainly listen to pop music so I'd not need the driving power to be insane. If not, what amps are good with pairing with the DAVE to drive the 1266 ? I currently have my eyes on the formula S and GSX-mini.


----------



## Roasty

PortableAudioLover said:


> Hello folks,
> Does anybody here have a 1266 Phi TC paired with DAVE that can briefly share with me the experiences playing with it ? Does it sound fine straight out of DAVE ? I mainly listen to pop music so I'd not need the driving power to be insane. If not, what amps are good with pairing with the DAVE to drive the 1266 ? I currently have my eyes on the formula S and GSX-mini.



I've not tried TC direct out of Dave. But I have had the gsx mini. Consider the Wells Audio Milo, which I find a lot better than the gsxmini for TC (however it has too much power for sensitive headphones). I've not tried the formula S but from what I've read you will want the powerman as well to complete the story.


----------



## PortableAudioLover

Roasty said:


> I've not tried TC direct out of Dave. But I have had the gsx mini. Consider the Wells Audio Milo, which I find a lot better than the gsxmini for TC (however it has too much power for sensitive headphones). I've not tried the formula S but from what I've read you will want the powerman as well to complete the story.


Thanks for the input. Upon searching their website, I saw there are several upgrade options. Which one did you opt for ?


----------



## Roasty

PortableAudioLover said:


> Thanks for the input. Upon searching their website, I saw there are several upgrade options. Which one did you opt for ?



I have the Reference Milo with xlr and rca inputs. I see you have a Stellia on your profile pic. Just be aware there will be a faint background hum if you intend to use it with the Stellia too (but no hum audible with susvara and TC).


----------



## PortableAudioLover

Roasty said:


> I have the Reference Milo with xlr and rca inputs. I see you have a Stellia on your profile pic. Just be aware there will be a faint background hum if you intend to use it with the Stellia too (but no hum audible with susvara and TC).


I actually sold my Stellia's to fund the purchase for TC haha. For the Reference Milo, have you tried plugging 800S into it and hearing hiss ?


----------



## simorag (Jan 28, 2021)

PortableAudioLover said:


> Hello folks,
> Does anybody here have a 1266 Phi TC paired with DAVE that can briefly share with me the experiences playing with it ? Does it sound fine straight out of DAVE ? I mainly listen to pop music so I'd not need the driving power to be insane. If not, what amps are good with pairing with the DAVE to drive the 1266 ? I currently have my eyes on the formula S and GSX-mini.



Hi, I posted my impressions a while back here:
*https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/post-14394739*

I would say that for pop music in particular, which is typically quite compressed, you will hardly run out of SPL volume with the DAVE, and quality-wise it is sure _fine _(even more than that, actually, guessing like 85% of what you could possibly squeeze out of the TC).

You could add an amp later on, once you have accustomed yourself with the _tonality _of the pairing (which tends to be on the colder side of things) to grab the more synergistic amp for your tastes, and/or add the M Scaler.

The GSX-mini seems a very sensible option based on many nice user's feedback on this thread, and even the Abyss team endorsement here.


----------



## PortableAudioLover

simorag said:


> Hi, I posted my impressions a while back here:
> *https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/post-14394739*
> 
> I would say that for pop music in particular, which is typically quite compressed, you will hardly run out of SPL volume with the DAVE, and quality-wise it is sure _fine _(even more than that, actually, guessing like 85% of what you could possibly squeeze out of the TC).
> ...


Thanks for your input ! The gsx-mini caught my eyes because of its endorsement (especially from Eric) but I wonder if it's actually good enough for 1266 ?


----------



## edwardsean

Has anyone done this test?

DAVE + [Hi-end Amp] + 1266  vs.  DAVE + [DC3/DC4] + 1266

I'd be curious. My strong speculation would be that even the DC4 would not give you the full dynamics of a dedicated amp. However, it would retain all the transparent magic of DAVE while dramatically improving the areas an amp would address.


----------



## Sampajanna

Second DC4 just landed (for Mscaler). Only one day in, but some impressions: Not as crazy WOWZA as the Dave DC4, but so far I have noticed a smoother, more analogue sound and a shift in soundstage. More "musical," as they say. The difference is definitely there. It is not super subtle, just not as strong as with the Dave. Anyonbe else playing like this? Nick?


----------



## edwardsean

Sampajanna said:


> Second DC4 just landed (for Mscaler). Only one day in, but some impressions: Not as crazy WOWZA as the Dave DC4, but so far I have noticed a smoother, more analogue sound and a shift in soundstage. More "musical," as they say. The difference is definitely there. It is not super subtle, just not as strong as with the Dave. Anyonbe else playing like this? Nick?



Twin DC4s. Awesome. 

What headphones/speakers are your driving with your setup?


----------



## Triode User

Sampajanna said:


> Second DC4 just landed (for Mscaler). Only one day in, but some impressions: Not as crazy WOWZA as the Dave DC4, but so far I have noticed a smoother, more analogue sound and a shift in soundstage. More "musical," as they say. The difference is definitely there. It is not super subtle, just not as strong as with the Dave. Anyonbe else playing like this? Nick?



Yes, me. 

As you say the DC4 with the Mscaler is not as strong an effect as it is with the Dave but once heard it is not something I would lightly give up.


----------



## jlbrach

Roasty said:


> I've not tried TC direct out of Dave. But I have had the gsx mini. Consider the Wells Audio Milo, which I find a lot better than the gsxmini for TC (however it has too much power for sensitive headphones). I've not tried the formula S but from what I've read you will want the powerman as well to complete the story.


the abyss TC out of the dave is ok...will be very strained if listening to non compressed music....the formula s/powerman is a real treat with the abyss and dave


----------



## hieukm

Sampajanna said:


> Second DC4 just landed (for Mscaler). Only one day in, but some impressions: Not as crazy WOWZA as the Dave DC4, but so far I have noticed a smoother, more analogue sound and a shift in soundstage. More "musical," as they say. The difference is definitely there. It is not super subtle, just not as strong as with the Dave. Anyonbe else playing like this? Nick?



So there is no difference in bass or clean treble when using DC4 for Mscaler? I guess thats the difference for the digital side. 
Can you define more about this "shift in soundstage" ? the sound stage got deeper, wider or more holographic?

Hopefully it will emerge as the burn in settle.


----------



## Sampajanna (Jan 28, 2021)

About to sit down for a second listen, so just getting started.... I use speakers. Currently running KEF Reference 5, but maybe be switching those out soon, as I am negotiating for one of my dream speakers made by Marten.... The soundstage deepened and opened surprisingly with the 2nd DC4. These KEFs' strength is the imaging and soundstage, so any change is noticeable. (They have weaknesses too, of course)  I didn't notice anything in the bass in that first listen, but it was only an hour. As I said, the difference was definitely there, just not as smack your face bam-boom-pow as the Dave DC4 was... That one was epic night and day.... The main thing I noticed here was a smoothness, more laid back and relaxed but in a good way. Nick, are you still using Spendor Classic 200? I have kept looking at and reading about those (have had one eye on the "Ti" version since you showed yours)...


----------



## hieukm

Sampajanna said:


> About to sit down for a second listen, so just getting started.... I use speakers. Currently running KEF Reference 5, but maybe be switching those out soon, as I am negotiating for one of my dream speakers made by Marten.... The soundstage deepened and opened surprisingly with the 2nd DC4. These KEFs' strength is the imaging and soundstage, so any change is noticeable. (They have weaknesses too, of course)  I didn't notice anything in the bass in that first listen, but it was only an hour. As I said, the difference was definitely there, just not as smack your face bam-boom-pow as the Dave DC4 was... That one was epic night and day.... The main thing I noticed here was a smoothness, more laid back and relaxed but in a good way. Nick, are you still using Spendor Classic 200? I have kept looking at and reading about those (have had one eye on the "Ti" version since you showed yours)...


Was this relaxed texture closer to MSB presentation that you have heard before? MSB sound signature is very relaxed and especially densed for MSB Select 2 model.


----------



## Sampajanna

No. The MSB I heard was more smooth than HMS/Dave could ever get. But that is a good reference/metaphor for what I am hearing with the second DC4. Had a second session today and I would say that it took a step in that direction= smooth but clear; closer to the MSB that was here. More even and rich. Interesting I did notice a bit deeper bass in this second listen now that I was looking for it.


----------



## Sampajanna

Mostly I hear a bigger soundstage and a more musical smoothness. These are very clear with and without the 2nd DC4, especially soundstage as that is the KEF's strength and easy to notice any change. These are image beasts. They disappear into a wide and precise stage with holographic 3d realism


----------



## Triode User

Sampajanna said:


> Nick, are you still using Spendor Classic 200? I have kept looking at and reading about those (have had one eye on the "Ti" version since you showed yours)...



Yes I still use the SP200, I see no reason to change. I love them. The dealer did try to get me to listen to the Ti version and I was interested but I never quite got around to it.


----------



## Triode User

Sampajanna said:


> No. The MSB I heard was more smooth than HMS/Dave could ever get. But that is a good reference/metaphor for what I am hearing with the second DC4. Had a second session today and I would say that it took a step in that direction= smooth but clear; closer to the MSB that was here. More even and rich. Interesting I did notice a bit deeper bass in this second listen now that I was looking for it.



Sean always says it takes quite a lot of hours for the capacitors in the DC4 to bed in.


----------



## Amberlamps

Non DAVE Owners envy club starts right about here . <  there

So......whose buying / giving me a gratis DAVE ?

I’m Jewish if that helps ?

If not, I’m also a muslim and a catholic et al, bloody covid 19 long term side effects.

Should I stay or should I go now.  If I go there will be trouble.  And if I stay it will be double.

Mazel tov.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

Hi Triode User, Hi Sampajanna, 
Is the DC4 you have mentioned in last couple of threads for powering a DAVE and M Scaler a "Sean Jacobs DC4 LPS Power Supply" ?


----------



## Sampajanna

Yes. We have been discussing a 2nd one for Mscaler.... My 2nd one just arrived.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

Sampajanna said:


> Yes. We have been discussing a 2nd one for Mscaler.... My 2nd one just arrived.


Thank you for your reply Sampajanna.  Much appreciated.  I haven't heard of this product before !


----------



## Sampajanna

I bouht the second because the one for the Dave is epic. It is not a small move. Huge blast-off upgrade...


----------



## kenray536

Darkliner said:


> I noticed you are using xlr cables to connect dave/mscaler to wa33.  Sometime ago i tested xlr vs rca outputs from dave to wa33 and found that rca is actually superior to xlr.  Of course this is my personal opinion and i was able to use the same grade of cable for xlr and rca.  This is something you might wanna try out.



Interesting. What kind of difference did you notice for RCA vs XLR?

I run RCA to my headphone amp and XLR to my speaker pre-amp/amp. I wonder if it would be better to split the RCA to both amps.


----------



## Glossator

Just a small simple thought - which I am sure is not remotely original, but which I mention because I have been genuinely surprised by the extra sense of space it opens up and how in particular it helps the lower end (and also because it is free to try 😇):  it is well worth switching off DAVE‘s display ... (display option 4 accessed by unplugging headphones).


----------



## iDesign (Jan 30, 2021)

Glossator said:


> Just a small simple thought - which I am sure is not remotely original, but which I mention because I have been genuinely surprised by the extra sense of space it opens up and how in particular it helps the lower end (and also because it is free to try 😇):  it is well worth switching off DAVE‘s display ... (display option 4 accessed by unplugging headphones).


I wished there was a software update that could enable "DISPLAY 5" that will turn the DAVE screen off entirely. DISPLAY 4 mode will turn off the DAVE screen after 30 seconds but it annoyingly activates/fires during the start of playback or whenever the input sample rate changes.


----------



## MatW

iDesign said:


> I wished there was a software update that could enable "DISPLAY 5" that will turn the DAVE screen off entirely. DISPLAY 4 mode will turn off the DAVE screen after 30 seconds but it annoying activates/fires during the start of playback or whenever the input sample rate changes.


Yes that could be useful. Personally, I quite like the occasional confirmation that the thing is actually on and working its magic.


----------



## hieukm

Sampajanna said:


> No. The MSB I heard was more smooth than HMS/Dave could ever get. But that is a good reference/metaphor for what I am hearing with the second DC4. Had a second session today and I would say that it took a step in that direction= smooth but clear; closer to the MSB that was here. More even and rich. Interesting I did notice a bit deeper bass in this second listen now that I was looking for it.



Do you plug the HMS into the same circuit as your other gear?


----------



## audio_1 (Jan 30, 2021)

hieukm said:


> Do you plug the HMS into the same circuit as your other gear?



I have an analogue and digital circuit, supplied from a DFS 2 040-2 / 0.03-F Audio residual current circuit device and two separate GigaWatt G-16A 2P circuit breakers in the consumer unit. 4 mm² screened power cables run from here to an analogue power socket at the front the listening room and a digital power socket at the side. The power cables are separated as much as possible in the attic. One runs at the front of the attic and the other at the rear. I can have 2 separate circuits as the Opto-DX eliminates any potential ground loops. The Heisenbergs and Dave are powered from the Analogue circuit via an Audioquest Niagara 7000. The Blu2 and digital sources are powered from the digital circuit via my original conditioner, a RSA Dmitri. The Opto-DX also allows physically separating analogue and digital components.


----------



## hieukm (Jan 30, 2021)

audio_1 said:


> I have an analogue and digital circuit, supplied from a DFS 2 040-2 / 0.03-F Audio residual current circuit device and two separate GigaWatt G-16A 2P circuit breakers in the consumer unit. 4 mm² screened power cables run from here to an analogue power socket at the front the listening room and a digital power socket at the side. The power cables are separated as much as possible in the attic. One runs at the front of the attic and the other at the rear. I can have 2 separate circuits as the Opto-DX eliminates any potential ground loops. The Heisenbergs and Dave are powered from the Analogue circuit via an Audioquest Niagara 7000. The Blu2 and digital sources are powered from the digital circuit via my original conditioner, a RSA Dmitri. The Opto-DX also allows physically separating analogue and digital components.


That sound great. What improvement could you recall when putting the Blu2 on a separate circuit and on your RSA Dimitri.

i felt putting Blu2 on a separated circuit/isolation transformer and not mixing it with digital gear would yield further benefit

I will experiment putting the Blu2 on a separate balanced isolation transformer on a separated circuit from my other gears which already on isolation transformer and power conditioner.

DFS RCB do bring a taste of what low impedance electronic can do to your system. Whats the benefit of Gigawatts MCB? I hope its small enough not to trigger upgradititis


----------



## audio_1

hieukm said:


> That sound great. What improvement could you recall when putting the Blu2 on a separate circuit and on your RSA Dimitri.
> 
> i felt putting Blu2 on a separated circuit/isolation transformer and not mixing it with digital gear would yield further benefit
> 
> ...


I can't really say, as the Blu2 has always been powered via the Dmitri, even when I had my complete system powered through it on one circuit. I have tried the Dave powered directly from the mains. The improvement power conditioning makes to it is incredible. Power conditioning for the Dave is mandatory imho. The DFS RCB and Gigawatt MCBs, just bring an ease and musicality to the sound. I have no bad recordings any more, just some lacking dynamics and a bit flat sounding. There is absolutely no digital fatigue or brightness in my system. The analogue and digital power circuits, optical isolation and an optimised network must all contribute to this.


----------



## jlbrach

MatW said:


> Yes that could be useful. Personally, I quite like the occasional confirmation that the thing is actually on and working its magic.


I concur, I like to be able to look over and see what volume it is set at etc since it varies from HP to HP


----------



## musickid

The manual states 4 different displays for dave but i can only identify 3 different displays can anyone help me on this? thanks


----------



## Amberlamps

Just thought I’d post here that a documentary about Robert Mcnamara, very good documentary with very good music, Philip Glass.

It’s called “The Fog of War”

I love documentaries like this. It’s on Netdix and Sky Q, enjoy.


----------



## musickid (Jan 30, 2021)

I have a background in military history and this documentary is the real mcCoy. Good choice there.


----------



## musickid

I think i just solved the mystery concerning the display. From the manual.

_"Display mode 4 is largely similar to display mode 1. However, after 30 seconds, the screen will enter ‘screensaver mode’ and will shut off until a function button is pressed"._


----------



## Sampajanna (Jan 31, 2021)

hieukm said:


> Do you plug the HMS into the same circuit as your other gear?


I have an Everest. It isolates every component from each other completely: https://shunyata.com/products/power-distributors/reference-line-power-distributors/everest-8000/


----------



## Muataz

PortableAudioLover said:


> Hello folks,
> Does anybody here have a 1266 Phi TC paired with DAVE that can briefly share with me the experiences playing with it ? Does it sound fine straight out of DAVE ? I mainly listen to pop music so I'd not need the driving power to be insane. If not, what amps are good with pairing with the DAVE to drive the 1266 ? I currently have my eyes on the formula S and GSX-mini.



If you are interested in cleanest powerful amp that will not degrade DAVE quality theoretically check Singxer SA-1 headphone amplifer. I compared it with Gilmore Lite mk2 and I can't hear lite mk2 anymore and I believe GSX-mini build on the same design and sound signature.


----------



## Dipesh

Any suggestions on protecting rube amplifiers from power outage and surges ?
Thank you in advance


----------



## Ciggavelli

Dipesh said:


> Any suggestions on protecting rube amplifiers from power outage and surges ?
> Thank you in advance


I have used a Furman in the past:
https://www.amazon.com/Furman-Elite...fi+15&qid=1612148723&sprefix=furman+pf&sr=8-1

Now, I  use an Isotek Sigmas:

https://upscaleaudio.com/products/isotek-evo3-sigmas

Both are good. The Isotek improves sound quality by reducing RFI. If you have the money, I’d definitely recommend that


----------



## Dipesh

Ciggavelli said:


> I have used a Furman in the past:
> https://www.amazon.com/Furman-Elite...fi+15&qid=1612148723&sprefix=furman+pf&sr=8-1
> 
> Now, I  use an Isotek Sigmas:
> ...


I was about to get Deep core and Equi = core or Puritan . what do you folks think of these


----------



## Darkliner

kenray536 said:


> Interesting. What kind of difference did you notice for RCA vs XLR?
> 
> I run RCA to my headphone amp and XLR to my speaker pre-amp/amp. I wonder if it would be better to split the RCA to both amps.



From what i can recall the rca was more transparent than the xlr, made me feel more emotional towards the music.  XLR was very good as well, but i felt the RCA was a tad more transparent.


----------



## Christer

Darkliner said:


> From what i can recall the rca was more transparent than the xlr, made me feel more emotional towards the music.  XLR was very good as well, but i felt the RCA was a tad more transparent.


Hmm,  while browsing a bit today ,new Chord Daves at   -17 % from several US dealers over  at HIFI Shark.
Is something  "cooking" in secret, at Chord?
Dealers are always the first to know.
Just wondering.
Cheers


----------



## 118900

Christer said:


> Hmm,  while browsing a bit today ,new Chord Daves at   -17 % from several US dealers over  at HIFI Shark.
> Is something  "cooking" in secret, at Chord?
> Dealers are always the first to know.
> Just wondering.
> Cheers


They did the same with the mojo about 2ish years ago, gbp299 instead of 399. 2 years later it’s back to its usual price and nothing new.
Who knows


----------



## InstantSilence

On a dac of this caliber. 
Is usb or optical better in sound quality fed from laptop?


----------



## Dipesh

InstantSilence said:


> On a dac of this caliber.
> Is usb or optical better in sound quality fed from laptop?


I am using Zenith Mk3 . There is a big difference between audio from computer and audio from MK3.


----------



## InstantSilence

Dipesh said:


> I am using Zenith Mk3 . There is a big difference between audio from computer and audio from MK3.


But do yiu connect via USB or optical?


----------



## ra990

InstantSilence said:


> But do yiu connect via USB or optical?


I see you getting the itch...


----------



## Dipesh

InstantSilence said:


> But do yiu connect via USB or optical?


Usb to M scaler


----------



## sm60 (Feb 4, 2021)

InstantSilence said:


> On a dac of this caliber.
> Is usb or optical better in sound quality fed from laptop?


I would never use the optical TOSLINK connection as it is inherently flawed at transmission of high Rez content above 24-bit 96khz. For 192khz and DSD content USB is far more reliable. If you are only transmitting 44.1khz 16 bit content then optical TOSLINK connection is fine. Note I’m referring primarily to the TOSLINK connector not to any inherent limitations of optical connections. Matter of fact, optical connections can reliably transmit very high resolution information over great distances, e.g., optical fiber can transmit terabytes per second across oceans. But this uses far more sophisticated cabling than the cheap TOSLINK cable.


----------



## InstantSilence

sm60 said:


> I would never use the optical TOSLINK connection as it is inherently flawed at transmission of high Rez content above 24-bit 96khz. For 192khz and DSD content USB is far more reliable. If you are only transmitting 44.1khz 16 bit content then optical TOSLINK connection is fine. Note I’m referring primarily to the TOSLINK connector not to any inherent limitations of optical connections. Matter of fact, optical connections can reliably transmit very high resolution information over great distances, e.g., optical fiber can transmit terabytes oer second across oceans. But this uses far more sophisticated cabling than the cheap TOSLINK cable.


So one cannot upsample the 44khz files to 192khz?


----------



## Jawed (Feb 5, 2021)

InstantSilence said:


> So one cannot upsample the 44khz files to 192khz?


If you do that, don't bother with a Chord DAC.

A good optical cable works fine at 192KHz, but I don't think DSD can be transmitted from a computer over optical, so you would be forced to use USB in that case.

Optical is the reference for sound quality with Chord DACs as RF noise transmitted via electrical cables is the biggest problem when connecting any DAC, not just a Chord DAC.

EDIT: Oh, and when you are comparing the sound quality of optical and USB, the optical cable must be the only cable connected to the DAC. If USB is also connected, then the RF noise will infect the sound quality of the optical connection.


----------



## 118900

Deleted


----------



## Progisus

Jawed said:


> If you do that, don't bother with a Chord DAC.
> 
> A good optical cable works fine at 192KHz, but I don't think DSD can be transmitted from a computer over optical, so you would be forced to use USB in that case.
> 
> ...


Are not Chord TT, Dave usb galvanically isolated?


----------



## Jawed

Progisus said:


> Are not Chord TT, Dave usb galvanically isolated?


Yes. But galvanic isolation is far from perfect - small amounts of noise leak through regardless.


----------



## 118900

Jawed said:


> Yes. But galvanic isolation is far from perfect - small amounts of noise leak through regardless.


I don’t think that offsets the problems optical has in converting the electrical signal to optical and vice versa. I’m pretty sure from what I have read that optical is far from being the optimal solution but to each their own.


----------



## Progisus

I don’t feel the minute possibility of some noise jumping the Chord isolation is anything to be concerned with. Now the digital to optical conversion at the transmitter is another thing. Chord’s handling of the conversion at the receiving end is exemplary.


----------



## 118900

Progisus said:


> I don’t feel the minute possibility of some noise jumping the Chord isolation is anything to be concerned with. Now the digital to optical conversion at the transmitter is another thing. Chord’s handling of the conversion at the receiving end is exemplary.


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## GreenBow (Feb 5, 2021)

Progisus said:


> Are not Chord TT, Dave usb galvanically isolated?





Jawed said:


> Yes. But galvanic isolation is far from perfect - small amounts of noise leak through regardless.




Galvanic isolation is to prevent current flow between devices with different ground planes. It can enter a device on any ground linked connection. Like RCA or coaxial.

The noise that travels from USB is noise along the power rails from e.g. a laptop or PC. The simple solution to effectively almost completely curing that noise is the Audioquest Jitterbug. Some don't like the Jitterbug or believe it works, but it makes USB sound like optical. (Optical being reference.) If you search Head-Fi, you will find Rob Watts take on the Jitterbug. He effectively endorsed it.

I noticed the effect of the Jitterbug with the Chord Mojo, which doesn't have a noise filtered USB input. It was immediate.

The Hugo 2, Qutest, and TT2 have incorporated that sort of USB noise filtration. Meaning you don't need the Jitterbug with those DACs. (I leave a Jitterbug on with those DACs though, because I am a plant.) I don't know if the DAVE USB input is filtered.

EDIT: I think this is the right explanation. (99% sure.) However do your own reading on it, if you want to be sure.


----------



## 118900 (Feb 5, 2021)

GreenBow said:


> Galvanic isolation is to prevent current flow between devices with different ground planes. It can enter a device on any ground linked connection. Like RCA or coaxial.
> 
> The noise that travels from USB is noise along the power rails from e.g. a laptop or PC. The simple solution to effectively almost completely curing that noise is the Audioquest Jitterbug. Some don't like the Jitterbug or believe it works, but it makes USB sound like optical. Optical being reference. If you search Head-Fi, you will find Rob Watts take on the Jitterbug. He effectively endorsed it.
> 
> ...


Rob Watts’ own post on the subject of the jitterbug. 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/post-12681548


----------



## Jawed

GreenBow said:


> The noise that travels from USB is noise along the power rails from e.g. a laptop or PC. The simple solution to effectively almost completely curing that noise is the Audioquest Jitterbug.


Jitterbug works, but its effect is minor compared with the isolation provided by optical. I've done the comparisons, years ago, with DAVE 

The amount of noise produced by different models of laptop or PC will vary, so for some people the difference made by optical or a Jitterbug might end up being small, while for others its quite large. Rob Watts reported that a new laptop was significantly worse than an older laptop. So if you find there is little or no difference when using a Jitterbug, then you're lucky.

20 clip on ferrites around the USB cable at the DAVE end will be more effective than a Jitterbug and far cheaper. The sound quality of optical is the guide in determining whether you need to improve the noise control capabilities of a USB connection.


----------



## edwardsean (Feb 5, 2021)

No DAC, including Dave, has perfect galvanic isolation on USB, which is why so many of us use various strategies to deal with noise. There are many discussions of the problem and solutions on this thread.

Also, as mentioned, optical is not the simple best answer. I'm sure the Chord receiver is excellent, but there is noise along the conversion path regardless, along with bandwidth limitations.

My newest find in dealing with all these issues is this optical USB cable from Fibbr paired with an Uptone USPCB+LPS 1.2.

https://www.amazon.com/FIBBR-Female...=1&keywords=fibbr+cable&qid=1612541337&sr=8-3

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/uspcb-a-b-adapter
https://uptoneaudio.com/products/ultracap-lps-1-2

Corning had a version of this design, then the Monoprice Slimrun gained some popularity. I assumed, along with others, that the Fibbr and Monoprice cables were identical. I thought Fibbr produced them and Monoprice sold them without the badge under their own name. I replaced my Monoprice with the Fibbr and was surprised to find it sounded significantly better. I contacted Fibbr and they told me that though they look the same, Fibbr does not source Monoprice and their design is proprietary. So, they only share the same outer casing. The tech inside and quality of optical fiber is unique to Fibbr and the results are pretty fantastic.

The problem is that this Fibbr cable still has a copper wire that runs through the cable for 5V power. The LPS 1.2 works beautifully, but the best would be to eliminate that galvanic connection completely. Fibbr has an audio cable that does this and relocates the power on the receiver side. However, it's not available in the U.S., though I'm still trying to obtain one.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/blogs/fibbr-alpha-usb-audio-cable-review/

Daniel Mance over at Audiowise released his optical kit configured to USB, which also solves the problem. I think it's worth checking out. It's pricey but may very well justify his claim that it outperforms any USB solutions, that would include exotic $3K cables.

https://audiowise-canada.myshopify....tical-signal-isolation?variant=31850397106236

The guys over at AS are working with a Startech+Finisar combo for optical ethernet.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...-server/page/72/?tab=comments#comment-1107076

If you explore any of these routes, please report back here.


----------



## edwardsean

Also, a quick PSA. Please be careful with ferrites. All ferrites have a frequency and, without an oscilloscope, you are working somewhat blind. You're filtering out noise, to be sure, but also healthy frequencies as well. 

Don't just listen for the reduction in noise. Listen for loss of upper frequencies that may also be attenuated.


----------



## Jawed

edwardsean said:


> Don't just listen for the reduction in noise. Listen for loss of upper frequencies that may also be attenuated.


This is categorically incorrect when applied to digital and power supply cables


----------



## edwardsean

Jawed said:


> This is categorically incorrect when applied to digital and power supply cables



Interesting. Are you speaking from an engineering standpoint or from listening experience or both?

In my experiments with EMI/noise suppression materials, I've found them to have a broad dampening effect wherever I put them. I wish they just surgically filtered unwanted noise. 

I've found a pattern in my own use where I get excited about the noise reduction at first, and then I detect missing energy. It's more than just a loss of artificial excitation/distortion from noise. So I've relied less and less on noise suppression and more on removing/isolating noise generating components. 

I respect your statement. At the same time, I would continue to counsel users to listen critically for what they lose as well as gain with any noise filtering material. I don't think indiscriminately applying ferrites even on digital or power supply cables will provide a cheap and easy solution. If only.


----------



## Jawed

edwardsean said:


> Interesting. Are you speaking from an engineering standpoint or from listening experience or both?
> 
> In my experiments with EMI/noise suppression materials, I've found them to have a broad dampening effect wherever I put them. I wish they just surgically filtered unwanted noise.
> 
> ...


I'll draw a car analogy: your black car when covered in snow is still a black car. Cleaning the snow off the car doesn't change the car's colour.

So, for example, adding ferrites to a digital cable to reduce RF noise cannot filter the high frequencies in music. The ferrites can't change the digital data at all. They can't effect a transformation on the bits such that only high frequencies "suffer attenuation". Similarly with a power cable, the signal is either a pure sine wave or a steady voltage. In neither case is the presence of noise of any kind required for the functioning of the cable. That's the engineering answer.

For an experiential answer: your perception of the music is being snowed-on by RF noise which upsets analogue circuits. The noise makes the music sound brittle, confused and simplistic with the following problems:

bass loses its power, timing and texture - the timing of transients (which is to do with the timing, speed and refinement of the treble) is essential to your perception of bass.
rhythms become subtly confused - some instruments or notes in a rhythm get unexpectedly emphasised. In general rhythms become simplistic or mechanical.
harshness (often heard in voices, electric guitars, trumpets) - naturally these can have a "strained" feeling in their sound, e.g. the singer "shouts", but RF noise will exaggerate the effect. There's an overall feeling that the system is playing as loud as it can go or too loudly. The volume knob has a really obvious limit, beyond which the cringe effect is too much.
confused vocals - smeared treble causes natural sibilants to be exaggerated and sometimes even painful. Dialogue in TV or films becomes confused and unintelligible. Lyrics become mysterious.
exaggerated treble - finesse and refinement in the treble are ruined by the presence of noise and instruments will sound like their register is shifted upwards, with dynamics that become "plinky plonky".
soundstage compression - the soundstage squashes up, so that instruments and singers far back are brought forward and any that are at the far left or right get captured by the speakers.
etched imaging - singers or instruments seem to have a fizz of an outline about them, a sort of hyper real cut out effect.
false emptiness - often referred to as a "black background" in a recording. What's often happening is that subtle sounds or reverb are being masked by the confusing effect of RF noise. Reverb dies away for a while then suddenly just stops instead of flowing into the next instrumental sounds. Unplayed piano strings lose their sympathetic sounding and the instrument appears dead.
The "broad dampening effect" that you refer to is actually the result of you getting closer to perceiving the black car without any snow!

When a system is radically tweaked it can require that some other setup tweaks are altered. A lot of people use analogue interconnects or speaker cables as filters. Another common tweak is moving the speakers closer to a wall to make the bass sound beefier. Or using less toe-in with the speakers than they are designed for, because the treble was too piercing.

I don't know what your system is, from the DAC onwards, so I have no idea what tweaks you might make there. But it's best to think of any such downstream tweaks as "out of date" when you mitigate RF noise problems that affect the DAC.

I believe you're being patient in the setup and evaluation of your tweaks, so it's not much use me saying "be patient" or "learn to push through the pain of the change". I can only suspect that your dissatisfaction with a lack of energy derives from the qualities of the downstream parts of your system.


----------



## edwardsean

Jawed said:


> I'll draw a car analogy: your black car when covered in snow is still a black car. Cleaning the snow off the car doesn't change the car's colour.
> 
> So, for example, adding ferrites to a digital cable to reduce RF noise cannot filter the high frequencies in music. The ferrites can't change the digital data at all. They can't effect a transformation on the bits such that only high frequencies "suffer attenuation". Similarly with a power cable, the signal is either a pure sine wave or a steady voltage. In neither case is the presence of noise of any kind required for the functioning of the cable. That's the engineering answer.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the detailed reply.

I agree with you; noise is always the issue and presents many of the problems you listed. I also think you're right and that we have to think systemically. The goal is a pure signal, and reduced noise can sound duller in a setup–but so can a compromised signal. I'm not suggesting that ferrites can alter digital bits. Thinking systemically, digital bits exist in analog chips and metal conductors. 

You seem convinced that it is categorically impossible for ferrites or noise suppression materials to have any effect on digital or power signals. I can conjecture why you believe this, but I do disagree from both a theoretical and practical perspective. 

I would be afraid of what my car would like once you were done just "clearing off the snow" (grin). 

I respect your devotion to ferrites and I'm glad that you've been able to use them to such good effect. I'm not opposed to ferrites, but I also think there is a reason why you can't just attach a bunch of stock beads on a BNC and call it a Wave cable. 

When it comes to noise suppression my principle has been Hippocratic, "first, do no harm." Or, to paraphrase John Swenson, I would rather have no shielding than shielding done wrong." 

I also appreciate you taking the time to share what has worked so well for you. I've chosen a different route, and as always it's good for users here to have options to try out to see what works for themselves. 

P.S. You understand of course by "car" I mean my audio system. I'm in Chicago, and after these storms, I would appreciate anyone clearing the snow off my car!


----------



## Jawed

edwardsean said:


> I would be afraid of what my car would like once you were done just "clearing off the snow" (grin).


I can just about see 6cm of a pair of ferrited cables at my listening position


----------



## sm60

GreenBow said:


> Galvanic isolation is to prevent current flow between devices with different ground planes. It can enter a device on any ground linked connection. Like RCA or coaxial.
> 
> The noise that travels from USB is noise along the power rails from e.g. a laptop or PC. The simple solution to effectively almost completely curing that noise is the Audioquest Jitterbug. Some don't like the Jitterbug or believe it works, but it makes USB sound like optical. (Optical being reference.) If you search Head-Fi, you will find Rob Watts take on the Jitterbug. He effectively endorsed it.
> 
> ...


This product has elicited a range of opinions, from enthusiasm to snake oil criticism. John Atkinson of Stereophile found a subjective improvement but his measurements showed almost no difference. 
https://www.stereophile.com/content/audioquest-jitterbug-usb-noise-filter-measurements
Interesting that he liked it precisely for the reason I find plain old redbook CDs on a top notch transport to decisively stomp over any material played back on Roon through the Dave M-scaled through USB. In his description he uses the word “ethereal” to describe the sonic signature of streaming playback from his Mac mini. Using the jitterbug restored some of the realism of the playback from his Mark Levinson 31 CD transport. My sentiments precisely. Even though I’m dubious, I’ll have to try the jitterbug. It’s around $70, so not too pricey for a tweak. If it can make my Roon playback sound even half as good as my CDs do through my CEC TL0 transport, I’d be delighted.


----------



## muski (Feb 8, 2021)

Jawed said:


> bass loses its power, timing and texture - the timing of transients (which is to do with the timing, speed and refinement of the treble) is essential to your perception of bass.
> rhythms become subtly confused - some instruments or notes in a rhythm get unexpectedly emphasised. In general rhythms become simplistic or mechanical.
> harshness (often heard in voices, electric guitars, trumpets) - naturally these can have a "strained" feeling in their sound, e.g. the singer "shouts", but RF noise will exaggerate the effect. There's an overall feeling that the system is playing as loud as it can go or too loudly. The volume knob has a really obvious limit, beyond which the cringe effect is too much.
> confused vocals - smeared treble causes natural sibilants to be exaggerated and sometimes even painful. Dialogue in TV or films becomes confused and unintelligible. Lyrics become mysterious.
> ...


What a great and complete description of the problems caused by RF noise. This morning I installed an Audioquest Niagara 1200 (w/two NRG-Z3 power cables). The difference was striking, and if asked “In what way?”, I’d tick off improvements on every item in your list. I think what blew my mind the most was the improvement in reverb. It adds a shocking realism of reproduction that brought me one step closer to the concert hall.

I‘d always felt all things AC power (cords, conditioners, etc), a bit voodoo-ish. Boy was I wrong. I can see why there are so many rave reviews of the AQ Niagara (including DARKO’s).

muski


----------



## Sampajanna

Yep, the Everest 8000 is one of the biggest updates to a system I have experienced....


----------



## pspentax (May 29, 2021)

muski said:


> What a great and complete description of the problems caused by RF noise. This morning I installed an Audioquest Niagara 1200 (w/two NRG-Z3 power cables). The difference was striking, and if asked “In what way?”, I’d tick off improvements on every item in your list. I think what blew my mind the most was the improvement in reverb. It adds a shocking realism of reproduction that brought me one step closer to the concert hall.
> 
> I‘d always felt all things AC power (cords, conditioners, etc), a bit voodoo-ish. Boy was I wrong. I can see why there are so many rave reviews of the AQ Niagara (including DARKO’s).
> 
> muski



Indeed, this week I installed and 5000 and the improvements were amazing.
Some months ago I also installed one 7000 and again crazy improvement
From my experience the Niagara are the most interesting ones in the market, I also tested/installed ones from Isotek, PSaudio, Stromtank, etc... but the Niagara are the ones that show bigger improvements.


----------



## Sampajanna

Nice setup. I haven't heard the Audioquest conditioner. Will check it out if I get the chance. Love the Everest, though. Not a small difference. How does that Palyback Dream Dac compare the HMS/Dave?


----------



## pspentax

Sampajanna said:


> Nice setup. I haven't heard the Audioquest conditioner. Will check it out if I get the chance. Love the Everest, though. Not a small difference. How does that Palyback Dream Dac compare the HMS/Dave?



It’s not the Dream DAC it’s the Dream Transport😉
The DAC is the amazing Nagra HD DAC X and is miles away in a good way 🤣 from Dave 😉


----------



## Sampajanna

Oh I see the Cd slot now  Yes, I heard the Nagra once,. It is very nice indeed and should be much better, of course.


----------



## 118900

pspentax said:


> It’s not the Dream DAC it’s the Dream Transport😉
> The DAC is the amazing Nagra HD DAC X and is miles away in a good way 🤣 from Dave 😉


Deleted


----------



## BassicScience

sm60 said:


> This product has elicited a range of opinions, from enthusiasm to snake oil criticism. John Atkinson of Stereophile found a subjective improvement but his measurements showed almost no difference.
> https://www.stereophile.com/content/audioquest-jitterbug-usb-noise-filter-measurements
> Interesting that he liked it precisely for the reason I find plain old redbook CDs on a top notch transport to decisively stomp over any material played back on Roon through the Dave M-scaled through USB. In his description he uses the word “ethereal” to describe the sonic signature of streaming playback from his Mac mini. Using the jitterbug restored some of the realism of the playback from his Mark Levinson 31 CD transport. My sentiments precisely. Even though I’m dubious, I’ll have to try the jitterbug. It’s around $70, so not too pricey for a tweak. If it can make my Roon playback sound even half as good as my CDs do through my CEC TL0 transport, I’d be delighted.


Sounds like you potentially have a configuration issue with Roon. I started using it a couple months back and just recently noticed that it had defaulted to using a generic Windows 10 USB driver on my home built server. I discovered this when trying to isolate some sonic artifacts that sounded like a parasitic buzzing snare on deep bass notes. When I switched Roon to use the custom driver supplied with my DAC, this went away and the entire sonic picture really came into much better focus. You might check other Roon settings like oversampling, EQ, etc. FWIW.


----------



## gnomen

Yes, you do need to be careful with Roon.  I had a problem last month when I realised I had thoughtlessly activated a Roon connection to my dCS Network Bridge via Airplay instead of Ethernet.  Quality drop was painful!  
Because I had activated the NB in Roon over both ethernet and airplay, it was not obvious from the remote control that the wrong one had been selected, other than the little coloured circle indicating signal path quality was green rather than white.  What a relief that the problem was simple to fix.  I went back to the Roon setup page and de-activated the airplay route to the NB.  Wont be doing that again!


----------



## alxw0w

Has anyone tried comparing different BNC inputs on the Dave with M scaler in DBNC mode?
I mean 1&2 vs 3&4 ? Any thoughts/observations ?


----------



## ekfc63

alxw0w said:


> Has anyone tried comparing different BNC inputs on the Dave with M scaler in DBNC mode?
> I mean 1&2 vs 3&4 ? Any thoughts/observations ?



I recall that 3&4 are thought to sound the best.


----------



## PhenixS1970

If it would be of interest I have a Chord SPM 603 3 channel amplifier for sale (silver, no integra legs). Can be used for 2 channel as well (deactivate center channel with a button on the front).  Used it for about 8 years in my home theatre and it has been serviced by Chord end of 2018.  It’s in mint condition and original box available.  Willing to let go for a steal price (List price was 5000 EUR) EU and UK buyers only.  Drop me a PM for pictures or more info. Thanks, Stef


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## alxw0w (Feb 11, 2021)

ekfc63 said:


> I recall that 3&4 are thought to sound the best.


Hah, yes I didn't want to open the pandora box. But that's also mine finding.
3&4 seems to have calmer sound signature and also smoother.  Not darker but just calmer and smoother, oh and also I hear decay more easily.
Anyone having similar experience ?


----------



## MatW (Feb 13, 2021)

PortableAudioLover said:


> Thank you ! The fact that the DAVE has no hiss for 18s which has 9 ohms impedance is impressive !


I am currently listening to the DAVE with U18T and I do hear some noise on the right side. I did not with the Legend X, when I owned it. It is a little annoying but I still enjoy the pairing, because you only hear it during quiet parts of songs.


----------



## Sampajanna

I like 3&4 better too. Nick said this may because they are further from the analogue outs.... Also, I would like to disagree with some comments in this thread which suggest the Chord stand for the Dave does not provide isolation. Mine came with my Dave free. Whether it is worth the high price is a whole other discussion. I did with/without tests and it clearly works like other isolation platforms--it literally hangs the dac in the air and spreads the pressure out to 4 legs, each with 3 thick/tall rubber feet... Whether cheaper isolation alternative would work as well or better is another matter as well. But it does work.


----------



## iDesign (Feb 13, 2021)

MatW said:


> I am currently listening to the DAVE with U18T and I do hear some noise on the right side. I did not with the Legend X, when I owned it. It is a little annoying but I still enjoy the pairing, because you only hear it during very quiet parts of songs.


Probably more of reflection of the maligned U18T design which doesn't have LID than the DAVE itself. The A18S has no hiss whatsoever with the DAVE.


----------



## sm60

gnomen said:


> Yes, you do need to be careful with Roon.  I had a problem last month when I realised I had thoughtlessly activated a Roon connection to my dCS Network Bridge via Airplay instead of Ethernet.  Quality drop was painful!
> Because I had activated the NB in Roon over both ethernet and airplay, it was not obvious from the remote control that the wrong one had been selected, other than the little coloured circle indicating signal path quality was green rather than white.  What a relief that the problem was simple to fix.  I went back to the Roon setup page and de-activated the airplay route to the NB.  Wont be doing that again!


Roon 1.8 is a huge improvement in terms of overall stability on iOS and Android devices as well as on the Roon Core. The interface is a bit snazzier. But the previous 1.7 was very unstable for me and all the glitches seem to have been ironed out. I complained loudly and vociferously on the Roon forum and hopefully my input and other similar gripes have had positive effect, I’d like to believe. Roon 1.8 seems to sound better as well, which could be due to better management of the audio drivers. Will still need to try the jitterbug to see if that helps.


----------



## MatW

iDesign said:


> Probably more of reflection of the maligned U18T design which doesn't have LID than the DAVE itself. The A18S has no hiss whatsoever with the DAVE.


Possibly. I'll try with the Nio, which does have LID, and report back.


----------



## audio_1

sm60 said:


> Roon 1.8 is a huge improvement in terms of overall stability on iOS and Android devices as well as on the Roon Core. The interface is a bit snazzier. But the previous 1.7 was very unstable for me and all the glitches seem to have been ironed out. I complained loudly and vociferously on the Roon forum and hopefully my input and other similar gripes have had positive effect, I’d like to believe. Roon 1.8 seems to sound better as well, which could be due to better management of the audio drivers. Will still need to try the jitterbug to see if that helps.


The Android Roon Remote App is very slow to open, and sometimes will not open on my Samsung S7. Version 1.7 was ok. Does it open as fast as 1.7 on your android devices?


----------



## BassicScience

audio_1 said:


> The Android Roon Remote App is very slow to open, and sometimes will not open on my Samsung S7. Version 1.7 was ok. Does it open as fast as 1.7 on your android devices?


1.8 Remote App seems to be working fine on my Galaxy S10.


----------



## Lgn3

audio_1 said:


> The Android Roon Remote App is very slow to open, and sometimes will not open on my Samsung S7. Version 1.7 was ok. Does it open as fast as 1.7 on your android devices?


Yes


----------



## TheAttorney (Feb 13, 2021)

sm60 said:


> Roon 1.8 seems to sound better as well, which could be due to better management of the audio drivers. Will still need to try the jitterbug to see if that helps.



When I looked at the jitterbug last year, I ended up with the iFi iSilencer+, primarily because it did better in the few comparison reviews I managed to find at the time (I didn't directly compare the two myself). So you should consider the iSilencer as well, especially as the the new "+" version is an improvement on the older model that beat jitterbug in those reviews.

The iSilencer+ did give an incremental improvement to my HMS/Dave-based system that I felt was worth the low price, but it's subtle and won't dramatically change anything. I ended up with 3 of them and each helped a bit, rather like cables do. To put that into more context, a couple of years back I moved from Roon 1.7 to Euphony Stylus for a significantly improved SQ on my tweaked NUC server. Which pained me because I had a lifetime Roon license. I recently tried Roon 1.8 just to see and, well, it didn't last long - a very disappointing step backwards in SQ compared to Stylus. Much greater than the difference the iSilencers gave.

I still use Roon on my "transportable" system for music browsing and discovery, for which it is excellent. With different hardware and different configurations, I'm sure Roon would sound fine. So if you're happy with its SQ, then that's also fine. But if you're looking for a significant jump in SQ, then don't expect the jitterbug to do much compared to other potential changes to, say, server hardware and software. Sorry about that.


----------



## jlbrach

sm60 said:


> Roon 1.8 is a huge improvement in terms of overall stability on iOS and Android devices as well as on the Roon Core. The interface is a bit snazzier. But the previous 1.7 was very unstable for me and all the glitches seem to have been ironed out. I complained loudly and vociferously on the Roon forum and hopefully my input and other similar gripes have had positive effect, I’d like to believe. Roon 1.8 seems to sound better as well, which could be due to better management of the audio drivers. Will still need to try the jitterbug to see if that helps.


I also found roon 1.7 very unstable on my mac with my roon nucleus  and now my sonic transporter...I was always forced to restart the server which became a hassle...so far in the couple of days I have been ising 1.8 it has been stable but we will see over time...I do wish I could find a way to have the all music album ratings shown when I go to an artist without having to click on the album...with 1.7 the rating was shown for all of the albums along with dynamic range in the thumbnails


----------



## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> When I looked at the jitterbug last year, I ended up with the iFi iSilencer+, primarily because it did better in the few comparison reviews I managed to find at the time (I didn't directly compare the two myself). So you should consider the iSilencer as well, especially as the the new "+" version is an improvement on the older model that beat jitterbug in those reviews.
> 
> The iSilencer+ did give an incremental improvement to my HMS/Dave-based system that I felt was worth the low price, but it's subtle and won't dramatically change anything. I ended up with 3 of them and each helped a bit, rather like cables do. To put that into more context, a couple of years back I moved from Roon 1.7 to Euphony Stylus for a significantly improved SQ on my tweaked NUC server. Which pained me because I had a lifetime Roon license. I recently tried Roon 1.8 just to see and, well, it didn't last long - a very disappointing step backwards in SQ compared to Stylus. Much greater than the difference the iSilencers gave.
> 
> I still use Roon on my "transportable" system for music browsing and discovery, for which it is excellent. With different hardware and different configurations, I'm sure Roon would sound fine. So if you're happy with its SQ, then that's also fine. But if you're looking for a significant jump in SQ, then don't expect the jitterbug to do much compared to other potential changes to, say, server hardware and software. Sorry about that.



I also have a Roon lifetime sub and I now only use it for convenience in the kitchen. Which is a pity. When sound quality is more important than convenience I use iPeng or latterly I have been using HQPD + HQP + NAA to feed my mscaler but with all upsampling and all filters set to none in HQP. In other words just using the file selection and player function. These sort of things make big differences to sound quality in my opinion.


----------



## muski

A music recommendation for classical music fans...

I really appreciate how many musicians have live-streamed free concerts during COVID, but often find the audio quality almost unbearable. However, not so with the Bergen Phil's WinterMezzo concerts—the audio quality is some of the best I've heard for live-streaming (it's not 192/24, but it's approaching decent Redbook). Anyway, between the audio quality and the incredible performances by pianist Vikingur Olafsson, these are worth a watch. This concert is especially great (skip the first 8 minutes and dive into the Glassworks).

https://www.bergenphilive.no/video-...ezzo-víkingur-ólafsson-plays-mozart-and-bach/

muski


----------



## edwardsean

Triode User said:


> I also have a Roon lifetime sub and I now only use it for convenience in the kitchen. Which is a pity. When sound quality is more important than convenience I use iPeng or latterly I have been using HQPD + HQP + NAA to feed my mscaler but with all upsampling and all filters set to none in HQP. In other words just using the file selection and player function. These sort of things make big differences to sound quality in my opinion.



I think one of the most significant recent developments in audio has been the growing awareness of the importance of software. It's a really interesting situation because, at present, there is no ideal software. Roon is just in its own class in terms of user experience, but the developers are willing to compromise SQ to craft/curate that experience. As a result some have defected to other players in search of better sound.

HQP's client especially has been notable in drawing off more sophisticated users. Unfortunately, it has the exact opposite problem. The sonic render is exceptional, but the interface is not just stripped down, it's off-putting, at least for me. I can't get myself to click on it happily. I'm sure there are hardcore audiophiles who think sound is all that matters and UX is just window dressing. I disagree because we're not talking about software that controls, e.g., a drill press or box compactor. I care about sound because of the beauty of the experience of music as art. So, personally, the artistry of the UI/UX is part of the entire aesthetic experience. 

If you are willing to get into a Linux based OS, I think Euphony will reward you handsomely. The developer's focus, first and foremost, is sound. However, the UI is relatively clean, organized, and accessible. It is not without its frustrating issues, but they have been very responsive to their users and hope to add a dedicated UI designer.  

I hope this growing turn to software will bring more comprehensive solutions in the future!


----------



## Glossator

edwardsean said:


> I think one of the most significant recent developments in audio has been the growing awareness of the importance of software. It's a really interesting situation because, at present, there is no ideal software. Roon is just in its own class in terms of user experience, but the developers are willing to compromise SQ to craft/curate that experience. As a result some have defected to other players in search of better sound.
> 
> HQP's client especially has been notable in drawing off more sophisticated users. Unfortunately, it has the exact opposite problem. The sonic render is exceptional, but the interface is not just stripped down, it's off-putting, at least for me. I can't get myself to click on it happily. I'm sure there are hardcore audiophiles who think sound is all that matters and UX is just window dressing. I disagree because we're not talking about software that controls, e.g., a drill press or box compactor. I care about sound because of the beauty of the experience of music as art. So, personally, the artistry of the UI/UX is part of the entire aesthetic experience.
> 
> ...


Yes indeed.   Following the same line of thought it will be interesting to see how InnuOS 2.0 sounds ...


----------



## edwardsean

Glossator said:


> Yes indeed.   Following the same line of thought it will be interesting to see how InnuOS 2.0 sounds ...


Just FYI, some folks have loaded Euphony onto their Innuos servers and believe it to upgrade the sound quite a bit.


----------



## Progisus

edwardsean said:


> I think one of the most significant recent developments in audio has been the growing awareness of the importance of software. It's a really interesting situation because, at present, there is no ideal software. Roon is just in its own class in terms of user experience, but the developers are willing to compromise SQ to craft/curate that experience. As a result some have defected to other players in search of better sound.
> 
> HQP's client especially has been notable in drawing off more sophisticated users. Unfortunately, it has the exact opposite problem. The sonic render is exceptional, but the interface is not just stripped down, it's off-putting, at least for me. I can't get myself to click on it happily. I'm sure there are hardcore audiophiles who think sound is all that matters and UX is just window dressing. I disagree because we're not talking about software that controls, e.g., a drill press or box compactor. I care about sound because of the beauty of the experience of music as art. So, personally, the artistry of the UI/UX is part of the entire aesthetic experience.
> 
> ...


Roon’s latest 1.8 has attempted to better the sound and imho there is an improvement. I feel it my be slightly better than hqplayer with no upsampling or filtering. i.e. passthrough. The hqplayer UI is not an option for me.


----------



## Glossator

edwardsean said:


> Just FYI, some folks have loaded Euphony onto their Innuos servers and believe it to upgrade the sound quite a bit.


Interesting - thank you!   Being cautious will probably wait for Innuos ...


----------



## sm60

edwardsean said:


> I think one of the most significant recent developments in audio has been the growing awareness of the importance of software. It's a really interesting situation because, at present, there is no ideal software. Roon is just in its own class in terms of user experience, but the developers are willing to compromise SQ to craft/curate that experience. As a result some have defected to other players in search of better sound.
> 
> HQP's client especially has been notable in drawing off more sophisticated users. Unfortunately, it has the exact opposite problem. The sonic render is exceptional, but the interface is not just stripped down, it's off-putting, at least for me. I can't get myself to click on it happily. I'm sure there are hardcore audiophiles who think sound is all that matters and UX is just window dressing. I disagree because we're not talking about software that controls, e.g., a drill press or box compactor. I care about sound because of the beauty of the experience of music as art. So, personally, the artistry of the UI/UX is part of the entire aesthetic experience.
> 
> ...


While I applaud this work on building better streaming software clients and cores, the really challenging problem in high end audio continues to be speaker/room design. That is where the bulk of the distortion lies in digital audio systems (barring vinyl playback, which introduces huge levels of nonlinear distortions).
Amar Gopal Bose was a famous MIT professor legendary for his course on acoustics that he taught for many decades (he was also the brains behind Bose corporation, a successful multi billion dollar corporation). In one of his lectures, he demonstrated how significant room distortions were by simply playing a recording on a pair of high end speakers, recording the playback sound, then playing that 2nd generation sound and so on. Within about 5 iterations, the original recording vanished into noise, dominated by room modes. He also showed that doing the same process with average electronics produced no audible deterioration of the sound (Quad’s Peter Walker once ran a test where a dozen of his current dumping amplifiers were hooked up serially and no one could tell the difference from the 12 vs just one!). 
Speakers (or headphones) and the room is where the challenge remains.


----------



## Lgn3

Progisus said:


> Roon’s latest 1.8 has attempted to better the sound and imho there is an improvement. I feel it my be slightly better than hqplayer with no upsampling or filtering. i.e. passthrough. The hqplayer UI is not an option for me.
> 
> I agree that Roon 1.8 is an improvement, in terms of SQ.  Quite unexpected but immediately apparent, at least to my ears.


----------



## Christer (Feb 15, 2021)

edwardsean said:


> I think one of the most significant recent developments in audio has been the growing awareness of the importance of software. It's a really interesting situation because, at present, there is no ideal software. Roon is just in its own class in terms of user experience, but the developers are willing to compromise SQ to craft/curate that experience. As a result some have defected to other players in search of better sound.
> 
> HQP's client especially has been notable in drawing off more sophisticated users. Unfortunately, it has the exact opposite problem. The sonic render is exceptional, but the interface is not just stripped down, it's off-putting, at least for me. I can't get myself to click on it happily. I'm sure there are hardcore audiophiles who think sound is all that matters and UX is just window dressing. I disagree because we're not talking about software that controls, e.g., a drill press or box compactor. I care about sound because of the beauty of the experience of music as art. So, personally, the artistry of the UI/UX is part of the entire aesthetic experience.
> 
> ...


Interesting to read  that more listeners are beginning to pay more attention to SQ than the  convenience of all those competing  Streaming platforms like  Roon, Tidal and what not ,again.

Personally I have very limited experience with Roon, all I can say is I was NOT terribly  impressed by it even though I heard it via a very good system a few years ago.
Via my reference tracks it was clear that it was not transparent to me.
I have never tried Tidal or HQP.
I am a bit curious about HQP though.
But my old mbp is not  speedy enough to run HQP.
Tidal I have no interest in whatsoever.
I am still mainly using Audirvana or Pure Music, and currently  a cd transport+HMS which I bought for  roughly 15$ second hand recently, and both platforms are good enough for me to EASILY hear for example the  CLEAR and very obvious differences between  Storm and Stream BNC  cables via my Qutest/HMS and both my  electrostatic speakers and headphones.
I use Storm mainly with  some even" HMS´d" , otherwise a bit strident CDs. But I actually prefer Stream with most of my native masterfiles hi res downloads and particularly those where I very clearly  DO  Know what brings me closest to how things actually sounded live in the hall at  sessions and how it sounded both as mic-feed and master playback.
At least in my systems, both via speakers and headphones Storm can sound a bit too dark especially with high strings and percussion.
It  can dull the shimmer on cymbals more than what only the theoretical RF reduction could to my ears.
I have not a clue how there can be such a VERY obvious difference,but I know what I hear and I have enough hi res reference material to know I am not imagining things.
Yes storm is the more expensive and maybe with DAVE I would come to a different conclusion than with Qutest?

Or is Qutest actually better isolated against RF than DAVE thus leading to getting a bit too much of a good thing happening with Storm?

Someone mentioned ferrites being  very frequency dependent and only suppressing certain frequencies and someone else said no! Ferrites can not influence the actual digital signal transmitted !
I can only report what I can very clearly  hear.
And yes one thing is equally clear to me, both Storm and Stream are  VERY obvious improvements over the  BNCs supplied with HMS.
In some environments I have been those sound way too  harsh.
Back on software:
Audirvana has all the functions I need as far as cataloging and search functions are concerned,  and for what I stream I rely on the  Symphony orchestras own platforms or YT.
"So Roon this" -"Roon that" -is of no interest  whatsoever to me either.
PS Eagerly waiting to be hammered.
Cheers CC


----------



## HeeBroG

sm60 said:


> While I applaud this work on building better streaming software clients and cores, the really challenging problem in high end audio continues to be speaker/room design. That is where the bulk of the distortion lies in digital audio systems (barring vinyl playback, which introduces huge levels of nonlinear distortions).
> Amar Gopal Bose was a famous MIT professor legendary for his course on acoustics that he taught for many decades (he was also the brains behind Bose corporation, a successful multi billion dollar corporation). In one of his lectures, he demonstrated how significant room distortions were by simply playing a recording on a pair of high end speakers, recording the playback sound, then playing that 2nd generation sound and so on. Within about 5 iterations, the original recording vanished into noise, dominated by room modes. He also showed that doing the same process with average electronics produced no audible deterioration of the sound (Quad’s Peter Walker once ran a test where a dozen of his current dumping amplifiers were hooked up serially and no one could tell the difference from the 12 vs just one!).
> Speakers (or headphones) and the room is where the challenge remains.



Very interesting point but why is the room a challenge for headphones?


----------



## griff500

Christer said:


> At least in my systems, both via speakers and headphones Storm can sound a bit too dark especially with high strings and percussion.
> It  can dull the shimmer on cymbals more than what only the theoretical RF reduction could to my ears.
> I have not a clue how there can be such a VERY obvious difference,but I know what I hear and I have enough hi res reference material to know I am not imagining
> 
> Someone mentioned ferrites being  very frequency dependent and only suppressing certain frequencies and someone else said no! Ferrites can not influence the actual digital signal transmitted !


Storm are silver cables and Stream are copper and that is the primary difference. I might have expected the Storm cables to sound somewhat brighter but we hear differently.

The ferrites are tuned to deal with certain frequencies of RFI as far as I understand it - there are no claims that it changes the data being transmitted.


----------



## Christer (Feb 15, 2021)

griff500 said:


> Storm are silver cables and Stream are copper and that is the primary difference. I might have expected the Storm cables to sound somewhat brighter but we hear differently.
> 
> The ferrites are tuned to deal with certain frequencies of RFI as far as I understand it - there are no claims that it changes the data being transmitted.


Oh yes they are not supposed or intended to change the data at all  as far as I know.
And yes so did I, what you say holds true for analogue cables with the two different cables I have for my HD800 headphones  with silver being/sounding brighter than copper.
But that does not apply here.
I think it is an established fact that in most systems  Storm sounds darker than Stream.
I have not heard anyone claiming the opposite.

To me and in my system actually  a bit too dark with most of my acoustic ,mainly large scale symphonic, hi res material.
And NO it is not more RFI but lower not quite as clear  treble I hear with material I ,once again, DO know how should sound ideally.

People often complain ,and rightly so, about overbrightness with digital.
And until HMS and Wave BNCs entered my equation so did I.
But links in a reproduction chain can also sound darker than neutral and transparent imho.
I also remember Rob himself the first time I met him in Singapore mentioning that initially Dave which he was still working on then, sounded darker than his measurements  indicated and that he was still working on how to solve what he saw/heard as a problem.
I never heard his prototype but if anything without the HMS ,Dave can sound a bit too bright to me.
With HMS though, about as good as it  gets with digital imho.

Cheers CC


----------



## griff500

Christer said:


> Oh yes they are not supposed or intended to change the data at all  as far as I know.
> And yes so did I, what you say holds true for analogue cables with  the two different cables I have for my HD800 headphones  with silver being/sounding brighter than copper.
> But that does not apply here.
> I think it is an established fact that in most systems  Storm sounds darker than Stream.
> ...


Interesting. It's almost like measurements are not all that matters.


----------



## edwardsean (Feb 15, 2021)

I cautioned that ferrites were not a cheap and easy solution, but need to be used carefully. Ferrites cannot affect digital bits, but they have an affect on how those bits are transmitted along an analog conductor (if not what's the point?).

To be clear, this is not a knock on Wave cables. Rather Wave cables are the case in point. The designer has taken great care to implement ferrites precisely. You can't just buy a set of random beads on Amazon and clip them onto your BNC to the same effect.

Ferrites are just like anything else. Whether it's shielding, upsampling, conversion, etc. etc. it's the implementation that counts and you have to know what you're doing is all.


----------



## edwardsean

Christer said:


> Interesting to read  that more listeners are beginning to pay more attention to SQ than the  convenience of all those competing  Streaming platforms like  Roon, Tidal and what not ,again.
> 
> Personally I have very limited experience with Roon, all I can say is I was NOT terribly  impressed by it even though I heard it via a very good system a few years ago.
> Via my reference tracks it was clear that it was not transparent to me.
> ...



One more PSA: if you can find an MScaler for $15 I would take it. 

I know everything can sound like sarcasm over the forums, but sincerely Christer: congratulations. Lucky!


----------



## Christer

edwardsean said:


> One more PSA: if you can find an MScaler for $15 I would take it.
> 
> I know everything can sound like sarcasm over the forums, but sincerely Christer: congratulations. Lucky!


Hmm, I could not be bothered to correct that sentence and I was kind of waiting for this response.
But to be honest and clear as a "Stream" it was the NAD CD player that I currently use as transport via optical and HMS and with excellent results I must say, that I paid  less than €15  for!
My HMS cost a wee bit more.
But even at the price I paid I have to say that it is the best value digital product in my system, it truly elevates musicality over Qutest on its own.
How some here obviously fail to hear the improvement it makes ,with all three HMS  fully compatible Chord Dacs, is a mystery to me.
Cheers CC


----------



## alxw0w (Feb 15, 2021)

Christer said:


> How some here obviously fail to hear the improvement it makes ,with all three HMS fully compatible Chord Dacs, is a mystery to me.


I'm thinking it is down to two reasons:
- firstly it depends on what kind of music person is listening to. Different songs get different quality boost when using m scaler. On some recordings I'm struggling (struggling being probably too big word) to hear the difference. But on the other hand on some it's almost day and night
- secondly I think it also depends on people sensitivity to hearing improvements in their audio chain. We don't have the same sense of hearing (same as our eyes are not equal, same as our noses are not equal). For folk A something could be heard as big change but for folk B it could be minor or even not existing


----------



## sm60 (Feb 15, 2021)

HeeBroG said:


> Very interesting point but why is the room a challenge for headphones?


I think the point I was trying to make is that differences between headphones, rooms and speakers absolutely dwarf the differences between electronics and front end components. I’m not saying the Dave is not much better than most other DACs, but it’s not an obvious night and day difference you get at the other end of the reproduction chain. As an example I recently bought the Chord Mojo portable DAC to use with my iPad and iPhone. I heard the same track played back through two different headphones: an Etymotic in ear headphone and a Sennheiser HD650 over the ear phones. The differences could not be more stark. The Sennheiser was dark, muffled sounding and sluggish. The Etymotic in comparison was lean, mercilessly revealing and very transparent and quick sounding. The two headphones sounded as different as cheese and chalk. I rotate multiple speakers through my listening room. It’s amazing how different they sound. The Gradient Helsinki 1.4 is like the Etymotic. Lean, transparent and you get immersed in the recording venue. The Harbeth Monitor 40.1 in comparison sounds rich, warm and very flattering to many orchestral recordings but its high frequencies are quite rolled off in comparison.


----------



## Jawed

Christer said:


> To me and in my system actually  a bit too dark with most of my acoustic ,mainly large scale symphonic, hi res material.
> And NO it is not more RFI but lower not quite as clear  treble I hear with material I ,once again, DO know how should sound ideally.


How do you know that the system, cabling and room setup after Qutest is "neutral"?

How much roll-off is there with your speakers?


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## Christer (Feb 16, 2021)

Jawed said:


> How do you know that the system, cabling and room setup after Qutest is "neutral"?
> 
> How much roll-off is there with your speakers?



I certainly do know it isn´t absolutely transparent and neutral and I haven´t measured  the actual response in my room with my speakers.But with quite new panels the response should be  around +- 3db within 23 hz to 23 khz  according to  official specs.
And unlike many other speakers there is only ONE crossover point around 250hz all above that in one seamless  very transparent and  coherent Stream.
But my take on the differences I hear between Storm and Stream in my systems is basically the same whether I listen via speakers or headhones both via HD 800 and HEKV2.

And my references to neutral and transparent is how close I get to how things sounded LIVE in the hall with  a handful of recordings  where I was present at the actual sessions and heard both live and mic feed and  recorded masters at sessions.

Some of my reference tracks where monitored via HD800 at sessions so I feel reasonably sure that what I hear are actually more of the actual differences between the two cables than any other links in my chain.
And with headphones irrespective of which of my three main headphone amps I play via, the character of each  BNC cable still remains.
And also via speakers although different rca cables also add their own character to the final result ,the  differences  are still audible between Stream and Storm .

I am fully aware that every link in a reproduction chain in various ways deviates from neutral and that is one of the reasons I  try to rely on the  actual live sound of acoustic music as the most  reliable reference point.

But what I can clearly hear is that in my system and with my REFERENCE tracks is that Stream tends to sound more transparent and open and closer to the real thing, in the treble range both in my room via speakers and via headphones.
With some older ,early 80s  cds Storm is my  clearly preferred cable though.
And the  fuller warmer and darker character it  generally brings can be very seductive indeed.
I´d love to compare the two with both TT2 and Dave as well ,but I have so far not done so.
What I do know is that both are even better dacs than Qutest though.
During quite a few other comparisons  between them Dave/HMS  clearly ruled  the game with my ref tracks.
With Dave /HMS /Susvara/WA 33 I was basically  as close to "Audio  Nirvana" as I can remember being via headphones.
I can´t remember which BNCs where used each time but they where NOT stock.
Cheers CC


----------



## datka3

Hi I have asked this question if few different forums

Thinking about changing PSU in Chord Dave, I know  some users have tried following 
https://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/dc4-psu-for-chord-dave-dac

but the price for this unit is 7400 USD - i paid much less for DAVE "Used"

so my question is : and sorry if its complete stuped  on what I'm trying to do

from what i read , DAVE has 4 pin connection for PSU, a pair is for 5 volts doing Digital work and a pair for 15 volts for Analog 

Can i use: 2 X units from Farad Super3: one 5V and one 15 V ?  

I'm going to run this idea by local Hifi Electic engineer but was wondering what is the opinion here from ppl that know how this stuff works ....

Thank you


----------



## sm60

datka3 said:


> Hi I have asked this question if few different forums
> 
> Thinking about changing PSU in Chord Dave, I know  some users have tried following
> https://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/dc4-psu-for-chord-dave-dac
> ...


Here’s my advice for what it’s worth. The Chord Dave was designed by some very gifted designers. The idea that you could roll up your own power supply and improve on its sound  without mucking something up is infinitesimally small. It’s like me rummaging through spare parts in my garage and improving on the design of my Tesla model S. Forget about it. Life is too short. Spend it on something more useful. Of course, the folks who make the DC4 would be happy to sell you 1, 2 or 3 units to help you “improve” its sound. To me this sounds like snake oil. It’s your money and your time, so obviously you should do what thrills you. For the price of two DC4s, you could buy some rather fine loudspeakers or headphones. That would make a far far larger improvement to the sound than the DC4 might, without voiding the Chord warranty. When you buy Chord, you buy their concept, which includes a high performance switching mode power supply. You don’t like the sound, get another DAC. The world is full of choices of DACs with linear power supplies, even externally powered ones. For example, I wouldn’t dream of mucking about changing the drivers or crossover in my Harbeth Monitor 40.1. Alan Shaw, their chief designer is like Rob Watts for Chord. These guys spend their entire lives day in day out thinking about and designing their products. Dilettantes like us cannot easily improve on their creations. My $0.02 cents, for what it’s worth!


----------



## datka3

I was thinking to use dual farad 3 price is 1000 USD for 2 units vs 7400 that DC is offering , and I do get your point , just bring it up for discussion


----------



## datka3

"Life is too short. Spend it on something more useful" this is something my wife is constantly saying , but is my hobby and it brings me joy


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## sm60 (Feb 16, 2021)

datka3 said:


> "Life is too short. Spend it on something more useful" this is something my wife is constantly saying , but is my hobby and it brings me joy


I get that. High end audio has been my passion as well for 30+ years. There’s an element of tinkering that hobbyists are fond of that won’t ever die. I remember in the early days of the compact disc that there was no end of tweaks that would improve their sound. One popular one was to stick a rubber O ring on the label side of each CD that would  miraculously make them sound better. The company selling this tweak probably made a lot of money. It was a complete joke. CD technology was the average consumer’s first exposure to the rather geeky science of digital signal processing. As an undergraduate ECE student, I knew all the math behind digital audio from Shannon’s information theory to Nyquist’s theorem and Reed Solomon coding. The average consumer used to analog vinyl, cassette tapes and FM radio had never encountered anything this sophisticated. Naturally it brought out all the tinkerers. Put rubber O rings around each CD. Use various cleaning solutions to clean each CD. The list was endless The designers of the compact disc had put a lot of deep thought into designing a superb product that has held its own for more than 40 years. It was then and now not easy to improve their design, particularly for novices. You see the same happening now with streaming digital audio, how you should buy this $10k Ethernet cable from Nordost because it will improve the sound. A little time understanding the theory behind the design of digital signal transmission would of course clear up such confusion. I’m as gullible as the next person, mind you! I’m fond of my retro looking belt drive CD transport, even though my engineering background whispers in my ear that it’s all in my imagination, that a much cheaper CD transport would sound the same.


----------



## audio_1

datka3 said:


> Hi I have asked this question if few different forums
> 
> Thinking about changing PSU in Chord Dave, I know  some users have tried following
> https://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/dc4-psu-for-chord-dave-dac
> ...


Three voltages are required for Dave, +5 V for the digital section, -15 V and +15 V for the analogue section. The Farad Super3 isn't available in -15 V. I asked Mattijs de Vries if he would consider manufacturing a -15 V one, but they are busy with other projects at the moment. They are working on a Farad Super19. Perhaps if sufficient people request a -15 V supply for the Dave, they may consider manufacturing one. If people are interested in a Farad power supply for the Dave, please contact them.


----------



## audio_1

Dave power supply: I wonder does upgrading the Dave power supply have less of an affect on sound quality when using the RCA or XLR outputs into a high impedance power amplifier, compared to driving headphones or speakers direct? Much less current is obviously required for the RCA and XLR outputs into say a 50 kohm load compared to say 16 ohms for speakers or headphones. It would be great if owners of the DC4 power supply could comment on what they are driving with the Dave.


----------



## alxw0w

audio_1 said:


> Dave power supply: I wonder does upgrading the Dave power supply have less of an affect on sound quality when using the RCA or XLR outputs into a high impedance power amplifier, compared to driving headphones or speakers direct? Much less current is obviously required for the RCA and XLR outputs into say a 50 kohm load compared to say 16 ohms for speakers or headphones. It would be great if owners of the DC4 power supply could comment on what they are driving with the Dave.


@Triode User can say something about that. He is using Dave only as dac in his 2 channel system. And I'm sure he is very happy with his DC4 power supply.


----------



## Triode User

alxw0w said:


> @Triode User can say something about that. He is using Dave only as dac in his 2 channel system. And I'm sure he is very happy with his DC4 power supply.



Correct. I use my Dave connected to my Pass Labs XA60.8 power amps andwhere teh Dave is used for volume control. The current demands on the Dave are therefore negligible. I also use it connected to my ATC 150 active speakers and the same applies.

The DC4 weaves its magic despite this extremenly low current delivery by the Dave. So @audio_1 , it is not a case of the Dave getting most sound quality improvement from the DC4 when it is connected to a current hungry load.


----------



## onlychild

datka3 said:


> Hi I have asked this question if few different forums
> 
> Thinking about changing PSU in Chord Dave, I know  some users have tried following
> https://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/dc4-psu-for-chord-dave-dac
> ...



Prices for DC4 went up due to Brexit.  

You might want to post a wanted ad for a DC3 on here and AudiophileStyle.  You will get a used DC3 in the States considerably cheaper than a new DC4 with current Brexit pricing.


----------



## Triode User

onlychild said:


> Prices for DC4 went up due to Brexit.
> 
> You might want to post a wanted ad for a DC3 on here and AudiophileStyle.  You will get a used DC3 in the States considerably cheaper than a new DC4 with current Brexit pricing.



No, it wasn't Brexit, they went up because Sean registered for VAT, possibly because he hit the turnover threshold when a trader is required to register for VAT and charge VAT.

I repeat it was not Brexit but I agree there might be a second hand DC3 that might pop up from time to time.
(as you and I know   ).


----------



## edwardsean

Triode User said:


> No, it wasn't Brexit, they went up because Sean registered for VAT, possibly because he hit the turnover threshold when a trader is required to register for VAT and charge VAT.
> 
> I repeat it was not Brexit but I agree there might be a second hand DC3 that might pop up from time to time.
> (as you and I know   ).



Just to add in, the used DC3 doesn't need to have been built specifically for Dave (5V, +15V, -15V). If you find a used 3-rail DC3, it can be modified here in the States by Sean's affiliate. The cost of alteration didn't quite make sense before when DC3s were available new. However, now that they are discontinued, it may be worth investigating. 

I don't know, I have a Dave DC3. I love it–love it. However, sometime this year I'll get a chance to try out the DC4 that Ray reviewed on AS. That both excites me and fills me with dread. I love my little DC3–love it. I'm happy with where things are at, but the only way to stay that way is to not try out the DC4. We all know how that goes....


----------



## Lgn3

Triode User said:


> No, it wasn't Brexit, they went up because Sean registered for VAT, possibly because he hit the turnover threshold when a trader is required to register for VAT and charge VAT.
> 
> I repeat it was not Brexit but I agree there might be a second hand DC3 that might pop up from time to time.
> (as you and I know   ).



Exported goods to the USA  are zero rated for VAT are they not ? So whether Sean Jacobs is registered for UK VAT is surely irrelevant in this case. Apologies if I am mistaken.


----------



## Ciggavelli

The ridiculous price increases for the Sean Jacob psu (whomever is to blame), have completely turned me off. $7400 for the DC4 is insane when you can almost buy a new DAVE for that from your dealer. I’m sure the PSUs are amazing, but...nah too crazy.

At these prices, you are now in the realm of uber Dacs like the dCS and Mola Mola  ones.


----------



## griff500

Ciggavelli said:


> The ridiculous price increases for the Sean Jacob psu (whomever is to blame), have completely turned me off. $7400 for the DC4 is insane when you can almost buy a new DAVE for that from your dealer. I’m sure the PSUs are amazing, but...nah too crazy.
> 
> At these prices, you are now in the realm of uber Dacs like the dCS and Mola Mola  ones.


So you're not the target market (and neither am I). It's nothing to worry about.


----------



## Sampajanna

Price is one thing and should be considered, of course. I probably wouldnt have paid these higher prices. However, the improvement the DC4 makes to teh DAVE is no snake oil. Nor is it small...


----------



## sm60

Ciggavelli said:


> The ridiculous price increases for the Sean Jacob psu (whomever is to blame), have completely turned me off. $7400 for the DC4 is insane when you can almost buy a new DAVE for that from your dealer. I’m sure the PSUs are amazing, but...nah too crazy.
> 
> At these prices, you are now in the realm of uber Dacs like the dCS and Mola Mola  ones.


And if you add the $20K power cord from Nordost, the sound gets even better 😮.


----------



## edwardsean

The SJ PSU+Dave was never a value proposition against dCS, MSB, Mola Mola, TotalDAC, etc. It's about getting the Dave+Mscaler into that top tier territory. 

From there, it's a matter of preference, whether you like the Chord sound or e.g., the dCS sound.


----------



## Sampajanna

edwardsean said:


> The SJ PSU+Dave was never a value proposition against dCS, MSB, Mola Mola, TotalDAC, etc. It's about getting the Dave+Mscaler into that top tier territory.
> 
> From there, it's a matter of preference, whether you like the Chord sound or e.g., the dCS sound.


Exactly! I completely disagree that the DC4 is an attempt to change the DAVE sound and so one might as well buy something else at the combined price. It doesn't change the DAVE, it enhances it. It brings out more DAVEness, if you will. In fact, I would argue that the DC4 is for someone who really loves the DAVE sound. There are better dacs out there for sure. If I ever switch to one, I will let you guys have my DC4 at a more reasonable price.


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## Sampajanna (Feb 18, 2021)

Also, I think the price needs to be considered always from two perspectives. Dismissing something because it is expensive is the same as dismissing it because it is cheap. That will cause you to miss out on good things without ever hearing them. The first aspect of price is relative to a system. 10k Odin power cables may be obscene in a budget system but make perfect sense in a 300k system where they are a fraction of the overall budget and the gear is good enough to hear the difference. Then, second, the price should be commensurate to engineering/design/materials. It sucks when a product is poorly made of low-quality materials and then sold for expensive prices. Sean's DC4 is well-engineered, hand-built and uses high-quality parts through and through. The box itself is solid, the internals are great and even isoacoustic feet. It is a very well-made power supply. I showed it to an engineer and he said the same. He also was not a huge fan of the power supply I took out of the DAVE btw.... Anyway, just my two cents. take it for what its worth....


----------



## Lgn3

Although I have no interest in purchasing one of these power supplies for my DAVE I would like to point out that there seems to be some confusion regarding the prices for non UK customers. As far as I can see the price of $7400 for a DC4 includes UK VAT at 20% which would not be charged if buying from overseas. Once again apologies if this is incorrect.


----------



## TheAttorney

Lgn3 said:


> I would like to point out that there seems to be some confusion regarding the prices for non UK customers. As far as I can see the price of $7400 for a DC4 includes UK VAT at 20% which would not be charged if buying from overseas. Once again apologies if this is incorrect.


I think you are correct: UK VAT should not be charged to overseas customers. 
Either SJ simply forgot this fact when he updated his prices (he's new to VAT remember), or there's another cost involved to cover things like the US distributor etc.

Regarding an earlier comment that DC3 is discontinued, this is not borne out by the newly revamped Website. DC3 is proudly there with full description and pricing. 
There is also now an official note that you can mix and match: 
    "In some configurations, it may be possible to build hybrid DC3/DC4 PSUs to suit specific cost/performance requirements."


----------



## griff500

TheAttorney said:


> I think you are correct: UK VAT should not be charged to overseas customers.
> Either SJ simply forgot this fact when he updated his prices (he's new to VAT remember), or there's another cost involved to cover things like the US distributor etc.
> 
> Regarding an earlier comment that DC3 is discontinued, this is not borne out by the newly revamped Website. DC3 is proudly there with full description and pricing.
> ...


Surely anyone in the US would buy in the US (perhaps from the distributor directly). If buying directly from outside the UK then I would presume that VAT should not be paid as local sales tax will be applied at the point of import.


----------



## Sampajanna

Few more points, then I will rest my case:

1) If you look at many companies that have ranges of dacs (Kistune, MSB, etc.) one common feature for the higher models is a better, often external power supply. There is a reason for this.

2) When you add up the Dave, Storm cables, Mscaler and DC4 you can certainly get something better (if you want to), but I and probably others didn't buy these all at once, but over time (years maybe). Adding a garage to a house you already own doesn't mean you should sell your house and with the new garage money buy a different house with a built-in garage. What if you like your house? That brings me to 3.

3) I have a friend who has a Denafrips Terminator. He loves it. He constantly pokes me that it is better than DAVE (I don't agree). He recently upgraded to Terminator Plus. He sold the OG Terminator at a loss so the difference was more than the difference between MSRP of the two. He did so because he believed that the plus model would give him more of what he loved about the OG Terminator. He is happy and says it does do that, btw. He wanted more of what he loved, in other words. Anyway, he heard my system pre and post DC4 and recently said: "I get it. This is DAVE plus!"


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## edwardsean

TheAttorney said:


> I think you are correct: UK VAT should not be charged to overseas customers.
> Either SJ simply forgot this fact when he updated his prices (he's new to VAT remember), or there's another cost involved to cover things like the US distributor etc.
> 
> Regarding an earlier comment that DC3 is discontinued, this is not borne out by the newly revamped Website. DC3 is proudly there with full description and pricing.
> ...


I bought my DC3 directly from Sean last year. He uses an International banking service and I don't think I paid VAT. I don't know how his system has changed with new policies. 

As for the DC3 PSU. Yes, I do believe they are still available. Unfortunately, he told me that he is no longer making the DC3-Dave model. I think I got one of the last ones he built. He had so many orders coming in for DC4s he had to make a production decision and cutting the DC3-Dave was the right move for him.


----------



## Breguet

Anyone ever compared Dave to QBD? Would be really interesting to know the results


----------



## edwardsean

*If you're going to spend dCS, MSB money on a DAVE, why not just buy a dCS, MSB, etc.?*

I very much agree that a DAVE-system (MScaler, PSU, etc.)  is not a mutation of Rob Watts' design but an evolution of it. @Sampajanna makes the right point. Many of us didn't set out to make this kind of investment. Upgrades have a gravitational pull and the more mass you accumulate the stronger the attraction. So, this is all sort of a cautionary tale as well for stock DAVE users. Go, try out a Bartok, Tambaqui, etc. before setting out for the Dave solar system 

If you do go the DAVE upgrade route, I don't know that everyone would agree that there are better DACs out there. At this level it's more a matter of difference. 

If you're thinking of budget you need to look at the whole unit from inputs and power supply to output stage. If you're aiming for the top-tier you have to focus on the DAC's brain: the actual D/A conversion strategy. Chord's FPGA, dCS's ring design, MSB's ladder gambit, etc. all have characteristics strengths and weaknesses. I would not account Chord's actual conversion design below other world-class DACs. However....

When you look at those premium DACs what you will see is that the difference is not better D/A but a higher grade of support system. If the D/A is the brain, the power supply is the heart. And, any doctor will tell you for the brain to work at its best you need your heart to work at its best. Rob Watts is employed by Chord, which is a business with price points and profit margins. So, compromises have been made. To my mind, the power supply was the single critical sacrifice–but not the D/A or pulse array output stage. 

I don't think that DACs that cost multiples of DAVE have superior D/A, but that money went somewhere. Power supply was not the only place, but it surely took a lion's share of the allocation. As you can see high grade power supplies are neither cheap to design or build. These companies, nevertheless, made the investment because––you can't improve your DAC without improving your power supply. So, DAVE comes in at one price point and DACs like the Rossini come in at another. DAVE simply cannot enter that competition with its stock power supply (no matter the specs). Sure Sherlock Holmes in the movies was a clever fighter, but Maximus gladiator is still going to kill him dead. 

So, definitely, I think before you spend mad money you have to check out other high end brands. Building a DAVE system will not get you an MSB stack. However, you have to also know, ahead of time, that spending the cash on those other DACs won't get you a DAVE system either. When you upgrade DAVE's power supply to match the level of its D/A and then multiply that D/A by the power of Mscaler, you have a unique entry into that rarefied ring.


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## audio_1 (Feb 18, 2021)

edwardsean said:


> If you're going to spend dCS, MSB money on a DAVE, why not just buy a dCS, MSB, etc.?


Because a standard Dave beats them. A well setup Dave and Mscaler are in a different league! They are flawed designs imho.


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## buzzlulu

audio_1 said:


> Because a standard Dave beats them. A well setup Dave and Mscaler is in a different league! They are flawed designs imho.


Have you even heard them?

Flawed designs????  I really hope you are kidding.


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## audio_1 (Feb 18, 2021)

buzzlulu said:


> Have you even heard them?
> 
> Flawed designs????  I really hope you are kidding.


I'm not kidding, Yes, I have heard them. I compared the dCS Vivaldi and the Dave before purchasing the Dave. I used to own a 4 box dCS Scarlatti system before I knew any better and discovered Chord.
*Flawed design imho of course:*
1. The clock should be mounted close to the DAC, not in a different box. Imagine trying to sort out RF noise and reduce noise floor modulation in a dCS system with up to 4 clock cables.
2. The Vivaldi uses op-amps for its RCA outputs. The balanced outputs are discrete.
3. It also has short tap length digital filters, so can't resolve transients optimally.
4.The analogue output and digital input connectors aren't even mounted on the main circuit board. The signals pass through cheap ribbon cables and push on connectors.
5. Profit, more important than sound quality! Why else would you make the design choices listed above.

How can this design be regarded as anything but flawed! Sorry for the rant, but I am tired of people going on about dCS just because their products are overly priced.

I agree, that the Dave is also not perfect. If obviously requires a much better power supply. Most importantly, it should also be optically connected to the Mscaler. If Chord implemented these changes it would make all the upgrades mentioned in this forum redundant!

A company requires at least one good engineer with genius technical ability and also passion about the product. Luckily Chord has Rob. 100 engineers mightn't have a clue and go off in the wrong direction. The one genius can guide the complete team. This can be seen in the automotive industry and Formula 1 for example. In the nineties, Audi hadn't a decent chassis designer and its cars handled badly. Ford had Richard Parry-Jones who designed the first Ford Focus with its independent rear suspension. Adrian Newey, Chief Technical Officer at Red Bull Racing and Ferdinand Piech, chairman of the executive board of Volkswagen Group in 1993–2002 also spring to mind.


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## edwardsean

audio_1 said:


> 5. Profit, more important than sound quality! Why else would you make the design choices listed above.


I'm not sure what you do for a living, but is it possible... I mean just may-be... possible... is there the slightest teeny tiny itty bitty chance... at all... do you think...

that the money grubbing morons and idiot engineers at dCS might know something about clocks, inputs, and outputs that may have escaped the vast reach of your technical knowledge? No? Zero chance? (collegial grin).


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## buzzlulu (Feb 18, 2021)

edwardsean said:


> I'm not sure what you do for a living, but is it possible... I mean just may-be... possible... is there the slightest teeny tiny itty bitty chance... at all... do you think...
> 
> that the money grubbing morons and idiot engineers at dCS might know something about clocks, inputs, and outputs that may have escaped the vast reach of your technical knowledge? No? Zero chance? (collegial grin).


I am grinning as well 

A good friend has owned, at the same time, the Naim ND555, Linn KDSM, dCS Rossini, and Chord DAVE.  The DAVE was the first to go.  The dCS remains as his main digital source.
My Linn KDS is now relegated to my headphone only system - my Rossini now fronts my Naim 500 system.
Idiot engineers at dCS - I am really laughing at that.  Do your research first before making statements like that.  Once you read about all of the firsts in the field of digital audio that the dCS engineering department was responsible for over the course of the last 40 years maybe then we can talk.


----------



## BassicScience

edwardsean said:


> I'm not sure what you do for a living, but is it possible... I mean just may-be... possible... is there the slightest teeny tiny itty bitty chance... at all... do you think...
> 
> that the money grubbing morons and idiot engineers at dCS might know something about clocks, inputs, and outputs that may have escaped the vast reach of your technical knowledge? No? Zero chance? (collegial grin).


Putting a clock in a separate box isn't justifiable from a technical perspective. It is purely a marketing strategy. That doesn't mean the engineers employed by dCS are "idiots", it means they have to take input from other people in the company regarding product design. I don't patronize companies whose "statement" products require ancillary equipment to reach "peak" performance levels. YMMV.


----------



## buzzlulu

BassicScience said:


> Putting a clock in a separate box isn't justifiable from a technical perspective. It is purely a marketing strategy. That doesn't mean the engineers employed by dCS are "idiots", it means they have to take input from other people in the company regarding product design. I don't patronize companies whose "statement" products require ancillary equipment to reach "peak" performance levels. YMMV.



I guess that rules out another historic UK company Naim Audio and their use of external power supplies.
Last I looked Chord requires ancillary equipment to reach peak performance level - streamers, USB regenerators, Optical feeds, M Scalers, external BNC cables because the ones included are not up to snuff, etc. etc.
Oh - perhaps just Chord marketing strategy?  It doesn't mean the engineers are "idiots", it means they have to take input from other people in the company regarding product design.


----------



## sm60

Sampajanna said:


> Exactly! I completely disagree that the DC4 is an attempt to change the DAVE sound and so one might as well buy something else at the combined price. It doesn't change the DAVE, it enhances it. It brings out more DAVEness, if you will. In fact, I would argue that the DC4 is for someone who really loves the DAVE sound. There are better dacs out there for sure. If I ever switch to one, I will let you guys have my DC4 at a more reasonable price.


Adding an external non-switching power supply to the Dave DAC makes it a non-Chord DAC. You may very well like the new sound. It’s not what the designer intended you to hear. Again, I reiterate. You cannot improve on the sound of professionally designed DAC’s at the level of Dave by randomly tinkering with its innards. The same applies to Chord amplifiers, which also use highly sophisticated switching power supplies. That’s the Chord design karma. Many high end amplifiers do not use switching power supplies. Chord does for well thought out reasons. It gives their design a certain clinical realism to the sound, which sounds completely different from an old school transformer design, like a McIntosh. That’s the reason the BBC invested heavily in Chord amplifiers. These same folks may offer you an external power supply for a Chord amplifier. Stands to reason they make more money this way. But such a modded Chord amplifier is not a Chord anymore.


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## sm60 (Feb 18, 2021)

BassicScience said:


> Putting a clock in a separate box isn't justifiable from a technical perspective. It is purely a marketing strategy. That doesn't mean the engineers employed by dCS are "idiots", it means they have to take input from other people in the company regarding product design. I don't patronize companies whose "statement" products require ancillary equipment to reach "peak" performance levels. YMMV.


It may surprise you to learn that every digital recording ever made on planet Earth in any recording studio in the world was made on equipment synchronized to external clocks. If you designed any digital audio device for the professional audio world (DAC, A-to-D converter, mixer, signal processor, equalizer etc.) that did not include the ability to synchronize to an external clock, you would go out of business in a week. Take a look at professional digital audio equipment from any online marketplace (B$H, Sweetwater, Adorama, etc.). Every single unit will have the provision for external clocking. Marketing strategy has nothing to do with it. Unlike crazy audiophiles willing to pay $10k for external power supplies and $20k for cables and power chords, the professional  audio world is strictly driven by performance needs. They always use balanced cable because they are locking connectors and intrinsically low noise over long runs. Speaker connections are always Speakon because they are worlds better than the silly spade lugs used on the high end audio speakers. And yes, they always use external clocking because when you have dozens of digital audio components talking to each other, clock synchronization is thx only way to keep them working reliably. Visit your nearest recording studio if you don’t believe me.


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## BassicScience

buzzlulu said:


> I guess that rules out another historic UK company Naim Audio and their use of external power supplies.
> Last I looked Chord requires ancillary equipment to reach peak performance level - streamers, USB regenerators, Optical feeds, M Scalers, external BNC cables because the ones included are not up to snuff, etc. etc.
> Oh - perhaps just Chord marketing strategy?  It doesn't mean the engineers are "idiots", it means they have to take input from other people in the company regarding product design.


There's a difference between putting a clock in an external box and putting a power supply in an external box. The latter is typically done to more easily shield low level audio signals from radiated RFI. A clock signal does nothing but degrade and pick up noise the further it has to travel to whatever it is clocking. 

Last I looked, I don't buy Chord or Naim products either.


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## BassicScience (Feb 18, 2021)

sm60 said:


> It may surprise you to learn that every digital recording ever made on planet Earth in any recording studio in the world was made on equipment synchronized to external clocks. If you designed any digital audio device for the professional audio world (DAC, A-to-D converter, mixer, signal processor, equalizer etc.) that did not include the ability to synchronize to an external clock, you would go out of business in a week. Take a look at professional digital audio equipment from any online marketplace (B$H, Sweetwater, Adorama, etc.). Every single unit will have the provision for external clocking. Marketing strategy has nothing to do with it. Unlike crazy audiophiles willing to pay $10k for external power supplies and $20k for cables and power chords, the professional  audio world is strictly driven by performance needs. They always use balanced cable because they are locking connectors and intrinsically low noise over long runs. Speaker connections are always Speakon because they are worlds better than the silly spade lugs used on the high end audio speakers. And yes, they always use external clocking because when you have dozens of digital audio components talking to each other, clock synchronization is thx only way to keep them working reliably. Visit your nearest recording studio if you don’t believe me.


It doesn't surprise me at all. It also has *nothing *to do with the point being discussed, which is that for a *consumer DAC*, using an external clock is not desirable and completely unnecessary.

As an aside, Speakon connections may be more robust than spades, and they're often more convenient to plug and unplug, which makes them a logical choice for a studio environment, but they don't offer any sonic advantage to using spades for a consumer in a home environment.


----------



## buzzlulu

BassicScience said:


> It doesn't surprise me at all. It also has *nothing *to do with the point being discussed, which is that for a *consumer DAC*, using an external clock is not desirable and completely unnecessary.


Care to show us your engineering degree?  You make a lot of bold claims.
I'm sure if I ask the dCS guys they would be happy to oblige.


----------



## BassicScience

buzzlulu said:


> Care to show us your engineering degree?  You make a lot of bold claims.
> I'm sure if I ask the dCS guys they would be happy to oblige.


BS in EECS from UC Berkeley, 1983. I don't have a photo of it, you'll have to trust me.


----------



## 118900 (Feb 19, 2021)

edwardsean said:


> I'm not sure what you do for a living, but is it possible... I mean just may-be... possible... is there the slightest teeny tiny itty bitty chance... at all... do you think...
> 
> that the money grubbing morons and idiot engineers at dCS might know something about clocks, inputs, and outputs that may have escaped the vast reach of your technical knowledge? No? Zero chance? (collegial grin).


Google Mercedes A class recall. Google Audi TT debacle.

Companies you never would believe make mistakes all the time and complacency can (and does) set in anywhere.

I’m not saying it’s necessary the case here, I want to be clear on that, but frankly as an outsider looking in he gave a clear description of what he thinks is wrong with dcs products and I know for a fact that basic design errors can be perpetuated and sometimes sub-optimal engineering decisions are kept as-is, especially if it’s a means for money to be made.

Let’s not forget that regardless of the professional qualifications of the people running a company, companies aren’t run as “engineering” departments. It’s a different mindset, even if the people in charge are all engineers.

Again, I’m not saying it is necessarily the case here, but it is worth considering.


----------



## Lgn3 (Feb 19, 2021)

BassicScience said:


> BS in EECS from UC Berkeley, 1983. I don't have a photo of it, you'll have


Deleted


----------



## Jawed

Christer said:


> I am fully aware that every link in a reproduction chain in various ways deviates from neutral and that is one of the reasons I  try to rely on the  actual live sound of acoustic music as the most  reliable reference point.


So one of the problems is how the final product was mastered. The mastering person may have tweaked the mastering to defend against treble emphasis, a common problem with DACs. That DAC is also part of the reproduction chain, in a way...


----------



## edwardsean

juansan said:


> Google Mercedes A class recall. Google Audi TT debacle.
> 
> Companies you never would believe make mistakes all the time and complacency can (and does) set in anywhere.
> 
> ...



@juansan, fair enough, as end-users we have every right to challenge the experts. I know first hand that we pick up things they miss!

I also really appreciate your civilly and tone. I wasn't questioning the analysis so much as the certainty of the conclusion: "Profit, more important than sound quality! Why else would you make the design choices listed above. How can this design be regarded as anything but flawed!"

We should question MOTs–for sure–but companies like Chord and dCS have earned the respect of the audio community. It is not fair to decisively write off dCS as having subpar sound due to greed and incompetence. I prize our passion, but we don't care more about sound than they do, and we don't know more about sound than they do. I would be sad for anyone here to think that the Rossini DAC, brought to market, is anything less than a marvel of brilliant engineering, because they also sell you a Rossini clock in a separate box.

My hope is always for a collegial attitude of mutual respect in our mutual love for audio, including deserving MOTs. I like it here on Headfi. This is my favorite thread. So, also, it was just a bit of ranting and poking fun in return (grin).


----------



## 118900

edwardsean said:


> @juansan, fair enough, as end-users we have every right to challenge the experts. I know first hand that we pick up things they miss!
> 
> I also really appreciate your civilly and tone. I wasn't questioning the analysis so much as the certainty of the conclusion: "Profit, more important than sound quality! Why else would you make the design choices listed above. How can this design be regarded as anything but flawed!"
> 
> ...


Honestly I don’t have much experience with extremely high end DACs as I’m currently using the HTT2 and the mojo and I had an H2 in the past. I like chord stuff because having compared their DACs to some others DACs and sources I absolutely love how music sounds through them. I think that the important thing is that we as consumers have a choice and also a forum such as this to exchange ideas and points of views. 👍


----------



## Sampajanna

edwardsean said:


> My hope is always for a collegial attitude of mutual respect in our mutual love for audio, including deserving MOTs. I like it here on Headfi. This is my favorite thread. So, also, it was just a bit of ranting and poking fun in return (grin).


Indeed. It is always more helpful and fun when people stick to what they have heard and avoid telling others that what they are hearing is "wrong." I would never make a negative comment on any product I haven't heard, even if it isn't the one for me. I like it here in this thread for the same reason. Stays pretty civil and helpful here.


----------



## HeeBroG

Hi All, 

Just reaching out for user experience pairing an amp with DAVE for speakers.
Unfortunately I can't audition where I am located but I am considering between FirstWatt F7 and Benchmark AHB2.


----------



## Christer

Jawed said:


> So one of the problems is how the final product was mastered. The mastering person may have tweaked the mastering to defend against treble emphasis, a common problem with DACs. That DAC is also part of the reproduction chain, in a way...


What you  say is imho, mainly a  problem with pop rock  studio products where a LOT of tweaking goes on and the final product is  both without any real references to live sound and a result of what the so called mastering engineer wants to pull back or bring  forth in the artifical mix people  finally get to hear. 


But much less of a problem with classical/ acoustic music at least with the companies I have worked with as a photographer.  
In the best cases I would say that the difference between mic-feed and final release is quite small  and  whatever deviation the master has from mic-feed is what the ADC/ DAC used added,plus of course the links in the reproduction chain used at playback.
In a good hall the best most realistic results are achieved when the recording engineer  sets recording levels and balances at the actual recording and lets the conductor /musicians decide dynamic levels within the capacity of the recording equipment used, and NOT afterwards in a mastering studio.
BIS used to get quite a lot of criticism for NOT compressing dynamics from people with boombox systems, but still sticks to orginal dynamics as far as I know.
And Jared Sacks of Channel Classics in many cases balances directly in the hall and tries to avoid post-processing as much as possible.
Another company that has surprisingly many really good recordings is the budget label NAXOS where many recordings released on CD are basically just the natural result of a few mics at the right places in a good hall and press record and then transfer the master  to disc .
No fancy name  Grammy Award winning  mastering engineers involved , just someone who often knows the hall very well and also  knows how to record  without involving  costly and unneccessary  postproduction.
Cheers CC


----------



## Triode User

HeeBroG said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Just reaching out for user experience pairing an amp with DAVE for speakers.
> Unfortunately I can't audition where I am located but I am considering between FirstWatt F7 and Benchmark AHB2.



I see you have the Extreme and so you are clearly interested in very high sound quality. I suggest that you may therefore be slightly disappointed in the two good but not necessarily top class amps you mention. Can I suggest you bring a Pass Labs XA30.8 power amp into the equation? 

The only way to find out what sound you like from a speaker amp is unfortunately for you to hear it in your system. They make a larger difference than you might anticipate to the sound quality.


----------



## Lgn3

HeeBroG said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Just reaching out for user experience pairing an amp with DAVE for speakers.
> Unfortunately I can't audition where I am located but I am considering between FirstWatt F7 and Benchmark AHB2.


You could consider Chord Ultima 5 or 6, depending on budget.


----------



## Hooster

HeeBroG said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Just reaching out for user experience pairing an amp with DAVE for speakers.
> Unfortunately I can't audition where I am located but I am considering between FirstWatt F7 and Benchmark AHB2.



The F7 will probably do fine. The AHB2 is total overkill considering how efficient your speakers are and will probably not sound very pleasant at all as in ultra clinical. Some kind of tube amp will most likely give the best results.


----------



## datka3

Just Purchased dual LPS wired for Chord DAVE, for 600$, I thought this is something I could try without spending thousands ..

I'm thinking of Do Before and After Video and post on YouTube, I have no idea if the change will be noticeable with my Iphone recording and youtube compression but something I'm willing to try, 

if you guys have an interest in any specific tracks from Qubus let me know, thinking to do 3 different tracks B4 and After the swap ...

I use Dave in my HIFI and HeadFie

My HifiSsytem is 

MartinLogan ESL15A
Luxman M900U ( Power Amplifier) , will be going DAC direct from DAVE to Luxman
OpticalRendu as a streamer...

Here is the pic of the unit ill be swapping out for power,


----------



## Triode User

datka3 said:


> Just Purchased dual LPS wired for Chord DAVE, for 600$, I thought this is something I could try without spending thousands ..
> 
> I'm thinking of Do Before and After Video and post on YouTube, I have no idea if the change will be noticeable with my Iphone recording and youtube compression but something I'm willing to try,
> 
> ...



Don’t you need triple LPS. +15, -15, +5, 0.


----------



## edwardsean

Triode User said:


> Don’t you need triple LPS. +15, -15, +5, 0.


It looks like the unit on the right is supplying two rails and the other unit has one rail. 

I know that Keces units are capable of multiple outputs. Keces on the whole are very well regarded, if not in the same tier as more premium options. 

@datka3 I am very curious to get your impressions! If this works, this does open the door for more economical, albeit messier, solutions. 

Please post even early impressions against the stock PSU.


----------



## ekfc63

Ditto.  Looking forward to hearing your impressions.


----------



## datka3

Yes each unit has dual outputs ,  and you are correct it needs 3 outputs , so I'll have one left for something,   Just trying to find  good way of somehow captured  the difference that's presentable ,


----------



## audio_1

datka3 said:


> Yes each unit has dual outputs ,  and you are correct it needs 3 outputs , so I'll have one left for something,   Just trying to find  good way of somehow captured  the difference that's presentable ,


Can a Keces power supply be modified or supplied with -15 and +15 volt output rails. This version is not listed on the Keces website?


----------



## Triode User

datka3 said:


> Yes each unit has dual outputs ,  and you are correct it needs 3 outputs , so I'll have one left for something,   Just trying to find  good way of somehow captured  the difference that's presentable ,



Just point which I found important and that is to consider the dc cables used otherwise you are in effect connecting a very efficient RF aerial to the digital and more importantly the analogue circuits of the Dave. I use 5 x screened cables (earthed at the power supply end) and find that makes a big difference. I do not subscribe to the fad for expensive gold / silver cables. Also consider the earthing of the Dave chassis because of course it is no longer connected to earth once mains is not used for the Dave.


----------



## datka3

Triode User said:


> Just point which I found important and that is to consider the dc cables used otherwise you are in effect connecting a very efficient RF aerial to the digital and more importantly the analogue circuits of the Dave. I use 5 x screened cables (earthed at the power supply end) and find that makes a big difference. I do not subscribe to the fad for expensive gold / silver cables. Also consider the earthing of the Dave chassis because of course it is no longer connected to earth once mains is not used for the Dave.


Unit came with some pre made  low voltage power cables using ( mogami or canare don't remember )  I do believe in proper grounding any way you can send pics of your cable setup or further explan what cable u used and how it was grounded ?  I thought DC4 would take care of all that no ?  Thank you , fact is I like Dave so much that I refuse to sell it for another dac and trying to squeeze anything else that's possible from it . I've had DCS Bartok and while I think it has better head phone amplifier section  compared to Dave , I still prefer sound of chord 

if you can explain how grounding was done that would help since I'll be doing swap in a few days , thank you


----------



## ekfc63

datka3 said:


> Just Purchased dual LPS wired for Chord DAVE, for 600$, I thought this is something I could try without spending thousands ..
> 
> I'm thinking of Do Before and After Video and post on YouTube, I have no idea if the change will be noticeable with my Iphone recording and youtube compression but something I'm willing to try,
> 
> ...



It’d be good to include the procedure for swapping out the PSU in the Dave in your YouTube video


----------



## datka3

Sounds good, but take a look at the attached PDF I found one of the members who documented the process, sorry forgot where I grabbed it from but it's pretty detailed, so whoever created it, Thank you!


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## ekfc63 (Feb 25, 2021)

The thought just crossed my mind that if I end up doing this I'll have a 7 box digital front end.  Even more if I get PSUs for Etherregen and MScaler as is recommended.  Daddy, are we there yet?!


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## datka3

I know I was thinking the same , might get aluminum case from alibaba and put my optical rendu lps and smaller components in to it , they say mu metlal is good for shielding so might put dry layers of it inside the case


----------



## Rexnord

Hi, totally different topping than currently discussed but I think this is the best place to get an answer.

Trying to figure out which cube audio speakers that will fit best driven direct from Dave’s single ended output in preamp-mode.
can’t really wrap my head around how many watts it’s max output is?

sorry but this might be obvious to you by reading the instructions, but that I only can read is 12V (volts?) and 6Vrms and doesn’t really tell me anything.

Want it to be suitable for cube audio nenuphar and going to test it but don’t want to crash the dealers speakers by giving it insufficient load.

@datka3 good luck with your new keces, looking forward to reading results!


----------



## Sampajanna

Nick, I would love to see some photos of your DC4 to Dave cable and how you are grounding it. From one of the screws on top?


----------



## Triode User

Sampajanna said:


> Nick, I would love to see some photos of your DC4 to Dave cable and how you are grounding it. From one of the screws on top?


 Sorry, got distracted. I have two GX16 sockets on my DC4. A 2 pin and a 3 pin. On one of them (cant remember which at the moment, probably the 3 pin) I made sure the grounded DC3 case has electrical continuity with the GX16 body and then I use the screen on the dc cable to take the earth to the Dave end where again I have two GX16 sockets on the Dave and where I made sure the GX16 body has electrical continuity with the Dave body.


----------



## Redflamingolingo

What magic is this?

Upgraded from Qutest to TT2 to DAVE over the last month. I'm so impressed with the DAVE.

It is in its own league compared to the TT2 and Qutest. 

So glad I upgraded.

Do many people pair it with the M Scaler? About to plug it in now. Can't imagine how it could make this sound better, though. I wasn't especially impressed with it attached to the TT2.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Redflamingolingo said:


> What magic is this?
> 
> Upgraded from Qutest to TT2 to DAVE over the last month. I'm so impressed with the DAVE.
> 
> ...


A bunch of us do, including myself. I think the m-scaler is an improvement over solo DAVE, but a relatively small subset of other posters prefer solo DAVE. I guess you just have to try it out and see for yourself


----------



## Redflamingolingo

Ciggavelli said:


> A bunch of us do, including myself. I think the m-scaler is an improvement over solo DAVE, but a relatively small subset of other posters prefer solo DAVE. I guess you just have to try it out and see for yourself



Initial impressions of M Scaler with DAVE is pretty substantial improvement on anything low res on Tidal and Qobuz. Minor improvements on high res files except for ones that mainly feature instrumentation like classical and jazz.

Going to keep listening with it and might return it. Unsure it is worth the cost really when DAVE already just sounds "this" good. I mean good God this sounds good.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Redflamingolingo said:


> Initial impressions of M Scaler with DAVE is pretty substantial improvement on anything low res on Tidal and Qobuz. Minor improvements on high res files except for ones that mainly feature instrumentation like classical and jazz.
> 
> Going to keep listening with it and might return it. Unsure it is worth the cost really when DAVE already just sounds "this" good. I mean good God this sounds good.


I found the m-scaler to reduce the “digital” sound. The DAVE has such great detail and resolution, but sometimes that sounds sharp to me (if that’s the right word). The m-scaler smooths it out.

Solo DAVE is like 4K at 30fps. M-scaled DAVE is 4K at 60fps. To use an analogy


----------



## Redflamingolingo

Ciggavelli said:


> I found the m-scaler to reduce the “digital” sound. The DAVE has such great detail and resolution, but sometimes that sounds sharp to me (if that’s the right word). The m-scaler smooths it out.
> 
> Solo DAVE is like 4K at 30fps. M-scaled DAVE is 4K at 60fps. To use an analogy


I love the analogy. I would definitely agree with low res tracks. High res I would say more like 4k 45 fps to 4k 60 fps (more or less so depending on the track itself) haha.


----------



## ekfc63

datka3 said:


> Sounds good, but take a look at the attached PDF I found one of the members who documented the process, sorry forgot where I grabbed it from but it's pretty detailed, so whoever created it, Thank you!





datka3 said:


> Sounds good, but take a look at the attached PDF I found one of the members who documented the process, sorry forgot where I grabbed it from but it's pretty detailed, so whoever created it, Thank you!


Thanks


----------



## griff500

Triode User said:


> Your comments are very opportune because I have this morning been looking inside a Innuos Zenith and comparing it to the Statement which has what I now realise from your post to be 3M RFI EMI absorbing sheets stuck over its sensitive components including the SSD, RAM etc etc.
> 
> I think it is time to buy some 3M sheets and get my scissors out.


I'm not sure if I have already mentioned this but when I upgraded the internal power supplies on my Auralic Aries G2 the upgrade came with these 3M sheets to be place over the PSUs and also over the electronics at the front.


----------



## Triode User

griff500 said:


> I'm not sure if I have already mentioned this but when I upgraded the internal power supplies on my Auralic Aries G2 the upgrade came with these 3M sheets to be place over the PSUs and also over the electronics at the front.


I didn't notice if you did mention it. I got my 3M sheets and have been applying to the SSD in my Innuos as well as on the processors.


----------



## SoundeScapes

Triode User said:


> I didn't notice if you did mention it. I got my 3M sheets and have been applying to the SSD in my Innuos as well as on the processors.


Interesting. Did you notice a difference in sq by doing so? I’m tempted to try some in my PC.


----------



## ZappaMan

SoundeScapes said:


> Interesting. Did you notice a difference in sq by doing so? I’m tempted to try some in my PC.


Can you link to somewhere that sells them as I’m not sure what to search for ?


----------



## sm60

Ciggavelli said:


> I found the m-scaler to reduce the “digital” sound. The DAVE has such great detail and resolution, but sometimes that sounds sharp to me (if that’s the right word). The m-scaler smooths it out.
> 
> Solo DAVE is like 4K at 30fps. M-scaled DAVE is 4K at 60fps. To use an analogy


I also found the M-scaler in my Blu Mk2 to produce a more wholesome less digital sound especially on red book CD compared to the straight Dave. Alas, there’s no free lunch. One has to invest in a really good pair of BNC connectors to reap the full benefits. The stock BNC is not really up to snuff. At least on my units, the stock BNC produces an RF glare that the premium Waveform cables greatly reduce.


----------



## SoundeScapes

ZappaMan said:


> Can you link to somewhere that sells them as I’m not sure what to search for ?


Mouser is one of few places I've found. There are some variants of the absorber sheets but I think the "AB 7050HF" looks good. 
AB7000HF-Series


----------



## allenwong

any one knows which headphones amplifier is good for Dave? Thanks


----------



## MacedonianHero

allenwong said:


> any one knows which headphones amplifier is good for Dave? Thanks



Ideally none. Most headphones don't require an additional amp with the DAVE. Only say the Phi TC, Susvara, HE-6SE or LCD-4 would I recommend a more powerful amplifier...otherwise you're just adding distortion. But if you do require an additional amp...I love the HPA4 and GS-X mini for two fantastic examples.


----------



## Ciggavelli

allenwong said:


> any one knows which headphones amplifier is good for Dave? Thanks


Depends on your headphones and budget. What are you rocking?


----------



## saudio7

allenwong said:


> any one knows which headphones amplifier is good for Dave? Thanks


Niimbus US4+ is very good.


----------



## Redflamingolingo (Mar 3, 2021)

I was getting ground hum connecting DAVE to my outlet or my power strip, so I bought this on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07W682STV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Hum is now gone. Sound is good. 

I just wanted to make sure that these hum mitigaters don't have an impact on sound quality in any way. Wanted to make sure that DAVE is still powered well and that my system wouldn't encounter any negative impacts by using this.


----------



## allenwong

Redflamingolingo said:


> I was getting ground hum connecting DAVE to my outlet or my power strip, so I bought this on Amazon:
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07W682STV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Hum is now gone. Sound is good.
> ...


I get reply from Miki, Auris Audio. He say “Many DAC manufacturers doesn’t take care of grounding loop.” My element x dac has same problem when connection nirvana. But paring with Qutest has no humming.


----------



## Redflamingolingo

allenwong said:


> I get reply from Miki, Auris Audio. He say “Many DAC manufacturers doesn’t take care of grounding loop.” My element x dac has same problem when connection nirvana. But paring with Qutest has no humming.



Yeah, I only get the ground hum with DAVE. I didn't get it with Qutest or with TT2.

This device definitely eliminated it.

There should be no affect to the sound quality, though, right? Since this isn't part of the audio chain?


----------



## allenwong

Redflamingolingo said:


> Yeah, I only get the ground hum with DAVE. I didn't get it with Qutest or with TT2.
> 
> This device definitely eliminated it.
> 
> There should be no affect to the sound quality, though, right? Since this isn't part of the audio chain?


I probably just go with Hugo tt2. I think is from all dac which has grounded.


----------



## Redflamingolingo

allenwong said:


> I probably just go with Hugo tt2. I think is from all dac which has grounded.



TT2 doesn't sound as good as DAVE. I tried them both and vastly prefer DAVE.

I don't think this will compromise the sound. I just wanted to check with everyone.


----------



## griff500

Redflamingolingo said:


> TT2 doesn't sound as good as DAVE. I tried them both and vastly prefer DAVE.
> 
> I don't think this will compromise the sound. I just wanted to check with everyone.


I think I might be about to test this theory...


----------



## MatW

griff500 said:


> I think I might be about to test this theory...


Haha, I think so too.


----------



## griff500

Redflamingolingo said:


> TT2 doesn't sound as good as DAVE. I tried them both and vastly prefer DAVE.
> 
> I don't think this will compromise the sound. I just wanted to check with everyone.


I've probably missed it, but did you compare with and without M-Scaler with the 'working' power supply?


----------



## 118900

griff500 said:


> I've probably missed it, but did you compare with and without M-Scaler with the 'working' power supply?


Yes he said the Dave sounds incredible with active speakers, especially if your username starts with a “g” and ends with a “0”. 

no idea how he knew that but it’s what he said..... 🤣


----------



## griff500

juansan said:


> Yes he said the Dave sounds incredible with active speakers, especially if your username starts with a “g” and ends with a “0”.
> 
> no idea how he knew that but it’s what he said..... 🤣


You're going to get a slap...  🤣 😂🤣


----------



## 118900

griff500 said:


> You're going to get a slap...  🤣 😂🤣


Honest question though, with the HTT2 sounding as incredible as it does (even without the Mscaler) how off the charts can a Dave be? Would love to hear one


----------



## griff500

juansan said:


> Honest question though, with the HTT2 sounding as incredible as it does (even without the Mscaler) how off the charts can a Dave be? Would love to hear one


That's what I am wondering.


----------



## 118900

griff500 said:


> That's what I am wondering.


You should buy one and tell me 😳😜


----------



## griff500

juansan said:


> You should buy one and tell me 😳😜


I think I will. Are you sure you want to know...


----------



## 118900

griff500 said:


> I think I will. Are you sure you want to know...


not really 

Actually my plan is to slowly save up for the M Scaler but not to pull the trigger until I see the next (if ever) iteration of the Dave. Who knows? it may even have an inbuilt Mscaler of some sorts in a single package without all the RF or whatever it is that needs the magical BNC cables.

Either way no more purchases for me until the new Dave is released (if ever).

No more purchases, just like I said when I bought the H2 which I replaced about a year later.........


----------



## griff500

juansan said:


> not really
> 
> Actually my plan is to slowly save up for the M Scaler but not to pull the trigger until I see the next (if ever) iteration of the Dave. Who knows? it may even have an inbuilt Mscaler of some sorts in a single package without all the RF or whatever it is that needs the magical BNC cables.
> 
> ...


🤣 

A new DAVE could be a very long way off but a new DAVE with the M-Scaler built in would be a great product (and probably more expensive).

If the DAVE is better then I'll be sure to let you know.


----------



## 118900

juansan said:


> not really
> 
> Actually my plan is to slowly save up for the M Scaler but not to pull the trigger until I see the next (if ever) iteration of the Dave. Who knows? it may even have an inbuilt Mscaler of some sorts in a single package without all the RF or whatever it is that needs the magical BNC cables.
> 
> ...


and the Audeze LCD-4z (which I bought with the H2) which I replaced with a Stax set up a month before I replaced the H2....


----------



## 118900

griff500 said:


> 🤣
> 
> A new DAVE could be a very long way off but a new DAVE with the M-Scaler built in would be a great product (and probably more expensive).
> 
> If the DAVE is better then I'll be sure to let you know.


I bet its better until AFTER you buy it....


----------



## griff500

juansan said:


> and the Audeze LCD-4z (which I bought with the H2) which I replaced with a Stax set up a month before I replaced the H2....


I know how you feel. I got the Focal Stellia - awesome headphones and who needs anything more. Then I got some ZMF Verite Open because... well... I'm not sure really. They are great though!   🤣


----------



## griff500

juansan said:


> I bet its better until AFTER you buy it....


I'll keep the M-Scaler regardless. That with the DAVE will probably be rubbish and I'll wish I had kept the TT2...  Probably not. 🤣

It's unnecessary really, as the TT2 is pretty spectacular. I expect the DAVE to be better but it will be interesting to see how much better. Diminishing returns and all that.


----------



## 118900

griff500 said:


> I'll keep the M-Scaler regardless. That with the DAVE will probably be rubbish and I'll wish I had kept the TT2...  Probably not. 🤣
> 
> It's unnecessary really, as the TT2 is pretty spectacular. I expect the DAVE to be better but it will be interesting to see how much better. Diminishing returns and all that.


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## MatW

griff500 said:


> I'll keep the M-Scaler regardless. That with the DAVE will probably be rubbish and I'll wish I had kept the TT2...  Probably not. 🤣
> 
> It's unnecessary really, as the TT2 is pretty spectacular. I expect the DAVE to be better but it will be interesting to see how much better. Diminishing returns and all that.


And if you think you will be done by then.... there is still a potential route towards Abyss TC/Susvara for open. And potentially VC for closed..


----------



## griff500

MatW said:


> And if you think you will be done by then.... there is still a potential route towards Abyss TC/Susvara for open. And potentially VC for closed..


Very true, although I'd upgrade my speakers before adding more headphones and I like what I've got a lot.


----------



## Triode User

griff500 said:


> I'll keep the M-Scaler regardless. That with the DAVE will probably be rubbish and I'll wish I had kept the TT2...  Probably not. 🤣
> 
> It's unnecessary really, as the TT2 is pretty spectacular. I expect the DAVE to be better but it will be interesting to see how much better. *Diminishing returns and all that.*



No, in my opinion this is the one case where diminishing returns does not apply. I am pretty sure you will be blown away by moving to the Dave from the TT2.


----------



## griff500

Triode User said:


> No, in my opinion this is the one case where diminishing returns does not apply. I am pretty sure you will be blown away by moving to the Dave from the TT2.


Damnit...  🤣 

As you know from our chat on another forum, negotiations are underway...


----------



## alxw0w (Mar 4, 2021)

I had moved from MTT2 to solo Dave and never regretted it.
Eventually I added M Scaler but even with solo Dave it was a good move, at least for my tastes. 
You can find my opinion of switching from MTT2 to solo Dave, I posted it some time ago here in this topic.

edit.
HERE https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-1056#post-15918202


----------



## griff500

alxw0w said:


> I had moved from MTT2 to solo Dave and never regretted it.
> Eventually I added M Scaler but even with solo Dave it was a good move, at least for my tastes.


Ok, ok, I give up... I'll get one then!!! Jeeeeeesus.   🤣


----------



## alxw0w

In my head three words sum Dave:
- clarity
- transparency
- resolution
(and I mean real resolution, transparency not harsh fake piercing treble that makes you ears blow after 30 minutes of listening)


----------



## Ragnar-BY

griff500 said:


> I expect the DAVE to be better but it will be interesting to see how much better. Diminishing returns and all that.


DAVE is much better DAC, but it’s preamp and headamp capabilities are weaker than TT2’s. MTT2 -> DAVE upgrade is very reasonable if you have good amplifier.

Without amplifier it’s apples to oranges in my opinion. You gain transparency, but loose some dynamic range and weight. There is no right choice when it comes to headphones directly driven by either DAC. It’s more about your preferences.


----------



## griff500

Ragnar-BY said:


> DAVE is much better DAC, but it’s preamp and headamp capabilities are weaker than TT2’s. MTT2 -> DAVE upgrade is very reasonable if you have good amplifier.
> 
> Without amplifier it’s apples to oranges in my opinion. You gain transparency, but loose some dynamic range and weight. There is no right choice when it comes to headphones directly driven by either DAC. It’s more about your preferences.


I've got ATC SCM40A active speakers so the DAVE should, I believe, work fine with them. Headphones are Stellia, which are very easy to drive, and Verite Open, which should be fine?

I'll retain the M-Scaler.


----------



## alxw0w

Stellia and ATC will be just fine. With Verrite depending on tracks and personal listening conditions you would probably need more oomph - but not always.


----------



## Triode User

griff500 said:


> I've got ATC SCM40A active speakers so the DAVE should, I believe, work fine with them



You bet it will be good with them. 
I had the ATC active 40s before I got the ATC active 150s (which also work very well with Dave).


----------



## Ragnar-BY

griff500 said:


> I've got ATC SCM40A active speakers so the DAVE should, I believe, work fine with them. Headphones are Stellia, which are very easy to drive, and Verite Open, which should be fine?
> 
> I'll retain the M-Scaler.


Utopia is very sensitive and dynamic. Should be fine if Stellia is the same. For all other TOTL headphones I would personally prefer an amplifier with DAVE. Can’t comment on ATC, have no idea how it sounds. In general amplifiers are very different. Some are really picky about preamps, some not.


----------



## musickid

dave with my oppo pm1 streaming roon courtesy of an ipod touch 7th gen. roon endpoint on battery power has been so good i forget to log into headfi the past few weeks..


----------



## Redflamingolingo

Can anyone recommend a better power cable for DAVE? Stock cable has ground noise hum that I'm assuming an upgraded cable can correct.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!


----------



## 118900 (Mar 7, 2021)

Redflamingolingo said:


> Can anyone recommend a better power cable for DAVE? Stock cable has ground noise hum that I'm assuming an upgraded cable can correct.
> 
> Any suggestions would be appreciated!


If it’s a standard kettle socket on the Dave (as I believe) Try looking into supra lo-rad shielded power cable. It’s not over priced, available in silver coated (SPC version I think) and excellent value for money. I used it on my headphone amp which had a problem with a very slight hum and it eliminated it completely


----------



## Triode User

Redflamingolingo said:


> Can anyone recommend a better power cable for DAVE? Stock cable has ground noise hum that I'm assuming an upgraded cable can correct.
> 
> Any suggestions would be appreciated!


If you have hum then my thoughts are that it is that it is not the fault of the factory supplied mains cable and there will be an issue elsewhere in the system causing it. I suggest trying to track down the cause rather than spending money changing the cable.


----------



## Redflamingolingo

Triode User said:


> If you have hum then my thoughts are that it is that it is not the fault of the factory supplied mains cable and there will be an issue elsewhere in the system causing it. I suggest trying to track down the cause rather than spending money changing the cable.


Maybe it is the "dirty" power source in my house? I live in an old house built in 1925.

I have attached this device into the outlet, and the hum from the DAVE is completely eliminated: 
https://www.amazon.com/Ebtech-Hum-P...75852&pd_rd_wg=vbehm&pd_rd_i=B07W682STV&psc=1

What I seem to have is 60hz ground-loop hum. 

So upgrading the power cable is not worth it, and I should just continue to use this adapter?


----------



## Triode User

Redflamingolingo said:


> Maybe it is the "dirty" power source in my house? I live in an old house built in 1925.
> 
> I have attached this device into the outlet, and the hum from the DAVE is completely eliminated:
> https://www.amazon.com/Ebtech-Hum-P...75852&pd_rd_wg=vbehm&pd_rd_i=B07W682STV&psc=1
> ...


That device tackles ground loop hum. Changing your mains cable is probably not going to tackle the problem. My inclination is still to find the cause of the ground loop if you can and correct the problem that way.


----------



## Redflamingolingo

Triode User said:


> That device tackles ground loop hum. Changing your mains cable is probably not going to tackle the problem. My inclination is still to find the cause of the ground loop if you can and correct the problem that way.


Gotcha. Thanks. Is it an issue to have ground loop hum? I only have it with DAVE. I used Qutest and TT2, and I did not experience it.

When I plug in the DAVE, the hum starts and can only be removed with this adapter or by turning my tube amplifier down quite a bit and using DAVE with more pre-amp power.

So long as this adapter removes the hum, is there an issue? I don't hear any sacrifice to sound quality with the adapter.


----------



## miketlse

Redflamingolingo said:


> Gotcha. Thanks. Is it an issue to have ground loop hum? I only have it with DAVE. I used Qutest and TT2, and I did not experience it.
> 
> When I plug in the DAVE, the hum starts and can only be removed with this adapter or by turning my tube amplifier down quite a bit and using DAVE with more pre-amp power.
> 
> So long as this adapter removes the hum, is there an issue? I don't hear any sacrifice to sound quality with the adapter.


When you used the Qutest and the TT, were you using the same tube amp?


----------



## Redflamingolingo

miketlse said:


> When you used the Qutest and the TT, were you using the same tube amp?


Yea, nothing has changed except my DAC.


----------



## Triode User

Redflamingolingo said:


> Gotcha. Thanks. Is it an issue to have ground loop hum? I only have it with DAVE. I used Qutest and TT2, and I did not experience it.
> 
> When I plug in the DAVE, the hum starts and can only be removed with this adapter or by turning my tube amplifier down quite a bit and using DAVE with more pre-amp power.
> 
> So long as this adapter removes the hum, is there an issue? I don't hear any sacrifice to sound quality with the adapter.


With your tube amplifier I would anyway suggest having Dave output a line level output signal and use the amplifier volume control to reduce the volume. I used to set my Dave at +3dB for an integrated tube amp I had and got the best sound quality that way as well.

The issue might be that Dave is connected to the mains earth where the Qutest and TT2 power supplies are not connected to earth. That might have exposed the mains loop issue caused (probably/possibly) by another piece if your kit or signal cables. Whatever the cause of the earth loop hum though, using the factory supplied Dave power lead is not the problem. Have you tried different interconnects between Dave and the amplifier? Is the amplifier properly earthed? All I can say is that I have had my Dave in many many systems and it has never ever been Dave causing hum and it has always been another piece of equipment when I fully investigated what was causing it.


----------



## miketlse

Redflamingolingo said:


> Yea, nothing has changed except my DAC.


In that case, I tend to agree with Triode.


Triode User said:


> With your tube amplifier I would anyway suggest having Dave output a line level output signal and use the amplifier volume control to reduce the volume. I used to set my Dave at +3dB for an integrated tube amp I had and got the best sound quality that way as well.
> 
> The issue might be that Dave is connected to the mains earth where the Qutest and TT2 power supplies are not connected to earth. That might have exposed the mains loop issue caused (probably/possibly) by another piece if your kit or signal cables. Whatever the cause of the earth loop hum though, using the factory supplied Dave power lead is not the problem. Have you tried different interconnects between Dave and the amplifier? Is the amplifier properly earthed? All I can say is that I have had my Dave in many many systems and it has never ever been Dave causing hum and it has always been another piece of equipment when I fully investigated what was causing it.



@Rob Watts has posted about how ground loops can form, and how they can be cured by simply adding a cable connecting an used output on a dac/amp to a spare mains socket.
A few dollars spent connecting a jack/cable/mains plug together, followed by a quick test, can be much cheaper than some of the audiophile solutions, that owners rush out and buy.


----------



## CJG888

Could I ask where this advice was posted? I’m trying to fix a ground loop between CD player and amp myself.

Thanks.


----------



## miketlse

CJG888 said:


> Could I ask where this advice was posted? I’m trying to fix a ground loop between CD player and amp myself.
> 
> Thanks.


I am just about to go to bed, so I will check tomorrow for you. It is easy to use the search functionality, to search for posts by rob watts.


----------



## Redflamingolingo (Mar 7, 2021)

Triode User said:


> With your tube amplifier I would anyway suggest having Dave output a line level output signal and use the amplifier volume control to reduce the volume. I used to set my Dave at +3dB for an integrated tube amp I had and got the best sound quality that way as well.
> 
> The issue might be that Dave is connected to the mains earth where the Qutest and TT2 power supplies are not connected to earth. That might have exposed the mains loop issue caused (probably/possibly) by another piece if your kit or signal cables. Whatever the cause of the earth loop hum though, using the factory supplied Dave power lead is not the problem. Have you tried different interconnects between Dave and the amplifier? Is the amplifier properly earthed? All I can say is that I have had my Dave in many many systems and it has never ever been Dave causing hum and it has always been another piece of equipment when I fully investigated what was causing it.


I have A LOT of equipment running out of a wall socket with two outlets. One outlet is connected to a power strip that has all the following plugged into it:

TV, Auris Nirvana amp PSU, computer PSU, cell phone charger, M Scaler PSU

DAVE is on the other outlet in the same wall socket.

If I hooked DAVE to another socket with an extension cord I bet the hum would go away.

I think there is too much plugged in perhaps.

The hum is much less if I put an extension cord into the power strip and plug DAVE in that way, almost like it is farther from the electricity source.

I can live with the anti hum adapter as long as it isn't hurting my signal chain or sound quality.


----------



## griff500

Redflamingolingo said:


> I have A LOT of equipment running out of a wall socket with two outlets. One outlet is connected to a power strip that has all the following plugged into it:
> 
> TV, Auris Nirvana amp PSU, computer PSU, cell phone charger, M Scaler PSU
> 
> ...


You've  tried unplugging other items to try and establish which item is causing it? Any dimmer switches, smart meters or lights, etc?


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Mar 8, 2021)

Just thought I would share some findings regarding the DC4 with Dave.

Firstly, I would like to say that in my experience the DC4 does do what it says on the tin. It is an excellent product imo. However, (we wouldn't be in this game if we weren't obsessive), I tried an experiment because the two separate umbilical cords used to power the Dave didn't seem to me an optimal solution. I know from experience that, for instance, with speaker cables Tellurium Q has built an enviable reputation for 'imaging and solid bass response' and this has been significantly assisted by keeping the red/black cables separated and exactly parallel throughout the length. No twists or kinks are possible with Tellurium Q speaker cables and it works. So I wondered if the same approach would assist focus and imaging in the same way with DC4 power cables. What I did at first (for simplicity) was just use two cable ties at separate spacing along the cables in order to space them uniformly about 2 inches apart and I also straightened out any small kinks that were obvious in order to further establish parallel uniformity between the 2 cables throughout the length. This also served to stabilise proximity movement between the cables because my DC4 cables are free hanging. The immediate finding was unambiguous: Tighter bass, better clarity and better imaging. However, because the cable ties had a strip of metal in them it introduced an 'edge' to the sound that was not desirable. My solution was to fashion 4 'solid plastic' cable connectors along the run at a 2 inch spacing between each cable. This did the trick.

I now have more focussed sound across the spectrum with better bass focus and the same warmth as I had before.

Additional note: Just like my speaker cables I also do not let these cables go any closer than 6 inches from my floor. (I learned that lesson from Audioquest Fog Lifters for my speaker cables which have been (scientifically?) proven to work). Cables are often a source of fallibility in a system unless the owner is fastidious about vibration and proximity I think.

Anyway, I hope this is of interest to some here.


----------



## onlychild

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Just thought I would share some findings regarding the DC4 with Dave.
> 
> Firstly, I would like to say that in my experience the DC4 does do what it says on the tin. It is an excellent product imo. However, (we wouldn't be in this game if we weren't obsessive), I tried an experiment because the two separate umbilical cords used to power the Dave didn't seem to me an optimal solution. I know from experience that, for instance, with speaker cables Tellurium Q has built an enviable reputation for 'imaging and solid bass response' and this has been significantly assisted by keeping the red/black cables separated and exactly parallel throughout the length. No twists or kinks are possible with Tellurium Q speaker cables and it works. So I wondered if the same approach would assist focus and imaging in the same way with DC4 power cables. What I did at first (for simplicity) was just use two cable ties at separate spacing along the cables in order to space them uniformly about 2 inches apart and I also straightened out any small kinks that were obvious in order to further establish parallel uniformity between the 2 cables throughout the length. This also served to stabilise proximity movement between the cables because my DC4 cables are free hanging. The immediate finding was unambiguous: Tighter bass, better clarity and better imaging. However, because the cable ties had a strip of metal in them it introduced an 'edge' to the sound that was not desirable. My solution was to fashion 4 'solid plastic' cable connectors along the run at a 2 inch spacing between each cable. This did the trick.
> 
> ...


Hello Dave,

This is great info.  Can you please share some pics.  I’m trying to picture what it looks like.

Also, what wire is your DC4 umbilical cord, the Neotech copper?

I’m using the Mundorf silver/gold as the umbilical as well as all the internal wiring in the DC4.  This wire is a lot more “solid” and harder to bend than the Neotech copper and keeps its shape.

I purchased two sets of the Center Stage 2.0 footers (for DAVE and DC4) and was planning to place the Dave on top of the DC4 which would allow me to have the shortest umbilical cords possible.  the CS2 footers would take care of any vibrations from the DC4 transformer so they would not effect the DAVE.  Once the footers come in, I’ll test to see how it sounds stacked vs separated.


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> Just thought I would share some findings regarding the DC4 with Dave.
> 
> Firstly, I would like to say that in my experience the DC4 does do what it says on the tin. It is an excellent product imo. However, (we wouldn't be in this game if we weren't obsessive), I tried an experiment because the two separate umbilical cords used to power the Dave didn't seem to me an optimal solution. I know from experience that, for instance, with speaker cables Tellurium Q has built an enviable reputation for 'imaging and solid bass response' and this has been significantly assisted by keeping the red/black cables separated and exactly parallel throughout the length. No twists or kinks are possible with Tellurium Q speaker cables and it works. So I wondered if the same approach would assist focus and imaging in the same way with DC4 power cables. What I did at first (for simplicity) was just use two cable ties at separate spacing along the cables in order to space them uniformly about 2 inches apart and I also straightened out any small kinks that were obvious in order to further establish parallel uniformity between the 2 cables throughout the length. This also served to stabilise proximity movement between the cables because my DC4 cables are free hanging. The immediate finding was unambiguous: Tighter bass, better clarity and better imaging. However, because the cable ties had a strip of metal in them it introduced an 'edge' to the sound that was not desirable. My solution was to fashion 4 'solid plastic' cable connectors along the run at a 2 inch spacing between each cable. This did the trick.
> 
> ...



Your thoughts are interesting. Do you use the same configuration for the 3 core +/- 15V / 0V dc cables and for the 2 core + 5v / 0V cables?

I have posted of my experiences with the DC cables to the Dave and the thrust of my objectives has been to stop as far as possible making aerials out of the dc cables because the dc cables are directly connected to the sensitive boards within the Dave. I have therefore gone in the direction of well shielded dc cables. I have to say that your dc cable configuration is the absolute opposite of where my gut instinct would take me . . .  .


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Mar 8, 2021)

Triode User said:


> Your thoughts are interesting. Do you use the same configuration for the 3 core +/- 15V / 0V dc cables and for the 2 core + 5v / 0V cables?
> 
> I have posted of my experiences with the DC cables to the Dave and the thrust of my objectives has been to stop as far as possible making aerials out of the dc cables because the dc cables are directly connected to the sensitive boards within the Dave. I have therefore gone in the direction of well shielded dc cables. I have to say that your dc cable configuration is the absolute opposite of where my gut instinct would take me . . .  .


TU yes same config and I think your observation is likely well founded regarding "I have therefore gone in the direction of well shielded dc cables"


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

onlychild said:


> Hello Dave,
> 
> This is great info.  Can you please share some pics.  I’m trying to picture what it looks like.
> 
> ...


 onlychild it is pretty dark where the cables are so not easy to provide a photo. Just picture a 2" wide ladder with 4 steps. My spec is standard DC4 spec with Gold for power connection.


----------



## Sampajanna

onlychild said:


> Hello Dave,
> 
> This is great info.  Can you please share some pics.  I’m trying to picture what it looks like.
> 
> ...


Hi

I have been thinking of getting the silver/gold cable. What differences did you notice?


----------



## Triode User

Sampajanna said:


> Hi
> 
> I have been thinking of getting the silver/gold cable. What differences did you notice?


At some point guys will get bored with us talking about the DC4 in the Dave thread but just to say that Sean created the DC4 as a ‘no expense spared best he can build’ project so if he had thought that silver/gold dc cable was better then it would already be in the DC4. I discussed this with him on the telephone late last year.


----------



## Sampajanna

So are u using the stock cable, Nick?

PS I heard from a birdie that Rob Watts is right now designing another box to enhance the MScaler.... Do you think it is true? What could it be? My guess is a clock....


----------



## alxw0w

Sampajanna said:


> So are u using the stock cable, Nick?
> 
> PS I heard from a birdie that Rob Watts is right now designing another box to enhance the MScaler.... Do you think it is true? What could it be? My guess is a clock....


No way Rob would ever design external clock. His statement was something like "using external clock to feed DAC is nonsense".
Secondly m scaler doesn't have external clock input.


----------



## Sampajanna

Well, if it is true that he is designing something to supplement Mscaler, what do you think it could be? It could be a false rumor, but there are empty buttons on the Mscaler which the manual also mentions are for future products....


----------



## griff500

Sampajanna said:


> PS I heard from a birdie that Rob Watts is right now designing another box to enhance the MScaler.... Do you think it is true? What could it be? My guess is a clock....


Enhance? I hope you mean functionality rather than sound.


----------



## Sampajanna

I don't think Robb would work on something that wasn't improving our hifi! I have no diea, though. Just heard a rumor.


----------



## Triode User

Sampajanna said:


> So are u using the stock cable, Nick?


Internally, yes I have the neotech copper. 

For the dc umbilicals I use Gotham GAC-4/1 11301 UltraPro Star Quad which I selected on account of its screening (which I earth). It is not an exotic cable.


----------



## Sampajanna

I think you have a different terminal than mine if I remember correctly. I just have the single one. Would you recommend fashioning a cable from that material?


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## onlychild (Mar 9, 2021)

Sampajanna said:


> Hi
> 
> I have been thinking of getting the silver/gold cable. What differences did you notice?


This is the wire:  https://www.partsconnexion.com/MUNDORF-70803.html

Nenon from AudiophileStyle got me hooked on it.  Most people are mainly using as DC wire.

I have replaced all my copper DC cabling with this wire, even on the network stuff and its made a very noticeable improvement.  To my ears, and many more on AS, it really is the best of copper and silver with none of the drawbacks, besides price.  Doesn't have the brightness of silver but has the speed and tightness that silver is known for.  Also sound very organic like copper.  You really have to hear it for yourself.

The easiest and cheapest way to test if it makes a difference in your system (because all systems have a different level of transparency) is to find the shortest copper DC cable you have and replace it with a silver/gold one.  I even heard a difference by just replacing the copper DC cable from my linear power supply to the ONT that brings an ATT fiber line for my music system.  This was a real eye opener about how everything in the chain matters and has a sound to it.  

Also, Sean is now offering DC4s made entirely of this wire as an extra cost option vs the neotech copper.  You just have to ask for it.  Don't think its on the site.

The DC4 Ray-Dude reviewed on AS was also made with this same wire.


----------



## Rob Watts

Sampajanna said:


> So are u using the stock cable, Nick?
> 
> PS I heard from a birdie that Rob Watts is right now designing another box to enhance the MScaler.... Do you think it is true? What could it be? My guess is a clock....


Your birdie tweets are false...

And external clocks for DACs is a crazy thing to do.


----------



## Sampajanna (Mar 10, 2021)

Haha. As rumors often are... Thanks for clearing that up, Robb... Fun to imagine what it would be for a minute, though!


----------



## Ragnar-BY

Rob Watts said:


> And external clocks for DACs is a crazy thing to do.


Problem with external clock for DAC is absolutely understandable. But what do you think about clocking the digital transport or upscaler from a DAC?

I’ve heard really nice improvement with other manufacturer DAC when transport (Aurender) was fed with clock signal from a DAC. Seems logical to use one clock for both devices, but still keep the clock in the DAC.


----------



## Rob Watts

Feeding the clock back is something I used to do - it's an effective way of solving interface jitter. It's not something that is needed now I have the DPLL. And the primary reason I developed the DPLL (this eliminates source jitter by creating a source frequency locked word clock that is synchronous to the local DAC clock and clocking out data from this word clock) is due to video and wanting high quality sound from my video sources, which are not possible to feed back clocks to.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

Rob Watts said:


> Feeding the clock back is something I used to do - it's an effective way of solving interface jitter. It's not something that is needed now I have the DPLL. And the primary reason I developed the DPLL (this eliminates source jitter by creating a source frequency locked word clock that is synchronous to the local DAC clock and clocking out data from this word clock) is due to video and wanting high quality sound from my video sources, which are not possible to feed back clocks to.


Thank you for explanations!


----------



## burbster

Firstly, apologies as I suspect this topic Has been discussed several times previously, but I was hoping to perhaps get some more specific advice. As my son prepares to go to university my wife and I are downsizing resulting in my new allocated listening room being substantially smaller that my current one. So much so that I think I need to move exclusively to a headphone setup. I have just blindly ordered a set of 800s headphones. i have no previous headphone experience, so my question is will I need a headphone amp with my Dave? I currently use the Dave as a pre-amp in my speaker system and love That setup, so just wondering why do people buy separate headphone amps to accompany Dave and what does it bring to the sound? Is it a similar debate as to whether to run Dave with a preamp or not? Thanks


----------



## Ragnar-BY

burbster said:


> I have just blindly ordered a set of 800s headphones. i have no previous headphone experience, so my question is will I need a headphone amp with my Dave?


HD800s will play better with good amp. These headphones could play very different depending on amp pairing. HD800s topic should be full of suggestions.


----------



## Ratephi

burbster said:


> Firstly, apologies as I suspect this topic Has been discussed several times previously, but I was hoping to perhaps get some more specific advice. As my son prepares to go to university my wife and I are downsizing resulting in my new allocated listening room being substantially smaller that my current one. So much so that I think I need to move exclusively to a headphone setup. I have just blindly ordered a set of 800s headphones. i have no previous headphone experience, so my question is will I need a headphone amp with my Dave? I currently use the Dave as a pre-amp in my speaker system and love That setup, so just wondering why do people buy separate headphone amps to accompany Dave and what does it bring to the sound? Is it a similar debate as to whether to run Dave with a preamp or not? Thanks



I own both the DAVE and the 800s and can confirm that, while you certainly can add one, you definitely don't need to add a standalone amplifier to your chain. The DAVE itself is capable of driving headphones which are far trickier than the Sennheiser you own. I would suggest adding a separate amp at a later stage, if you want more flexibility and levers to play with in order to fine-tune the pairing to your likings. But I would certainly wait and give yourself the time to get accustomed to the exceptionally good outcome you get out of the DAVE/800s pairing first. By the way, this has been for relatively long time my personal favourite combo (before I purchased the Abyss 1266 and a number of standalone amps which have, over time, mostly but not exclusively taken over the spot dominated before by DAVE/800s).

Some will say that DAVE and 800s lean towards the "bright side". As far as I'm concerned, that has never bothered me really and I've actually always loved the very analytical nature of these combo (which pairs well with most of the music I listen - classical and modern jazz first of all).

Congrats on the new purchase and enjoy!


----------



## JTbbb

Ratephi said:


> I own both the DAVE and the 800s and can confirm that, while you certainly can add one, you definitely don't need to add a standalone amplifier to your chain. The DAVE itself is capable of driving headphones which are far trickier than the Sennheiser you own. I would suggest adding a separate amp at a later stage, if you want more flexibility and levers to play with in order to fine-tune the pairing to your likings. But I would certainly wait and give yourself the time to get accustomed to the exceptionally good outcome you get out of the DAVE/800s pairing first. By the way, this has been for relatively long time my personal favourite combo (before I purchased the Abyss 1266 and a number of standalone amps which have, over time, mostly but not exclusively taken over the spot dominated before by DAVE/800s).
> 
> Some will say that DAVE and 800s lean towards the "bright side". As far as I'm concerned, that has never bothered me really and I've actually always loved the very analytical nature of these combo (which pairs well with most of the music I listen - classical and modern jazz first of all).
> 
> Congrats on the new purchase and enjoy!



+ 1 on all your comments. Burbster, if you follow this path you won’t go far wrong. The only thing I’ve done differently is to stay with my HD800S’s.


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## naynay (Mar 13, 2021)

Selling my Chord Dave Dac.
Immaculate condition.
Latest model with all the inputs on the rear panel numbered.
Colour is black.
I have photos that show it from all sides so you can see it is in top condition.
Thought I would mention on here first before it goes on for sale sites.
PM me for details only if interested in purchasing please.
Thank you.


----------



## iDesign (Mar 13, 2021)

burbster said:


> Firstly, apologies as I suspect this topic Has been discussed several times previously, but I was hoping to perhaps get some more specific advice. As my son prepares to go to university my wife and I are downsizing resulting in my new allocated listening room being substantially smaller that my current one. So much so that I think I need to move exclusively to a headphone setup. I have just blindly ordered a set of 800s headphones. i have no previous headphone experience, so my question is will I need a headphone amp with my Dave? I currently use the Dave as a pre-amp in my speaker system and love That setup, so just wondering why do people buy separate headphone amps to accompany Dave and what does it bring to the sound? Is it a similar debate as to whether to run Dave with a preamp or not? Thanks


You do not need an outboard amplifier with the HD 800 headphones. If you don’t like the signature of the HD 800, you will be better served by buying a different headphone than spending more on an amplifier. The HD 800 is a storied headphone and I have bought and sold the HD 800 S and HD 800 more times than probably anyone.


----------



## Ratephi

iDesign said:


> You do not need an outboard amplifier with the HD 800 headphones. If you don’t like the signature of the HD 800, you will be better served by buying a different headphone than spending more on an amplifier. The HD 800 is a storied headphone and I have bought and sold the HD 800 S and HD 800 more times than probably anyone.



I might have a slightly different view on this. I believe in fact that the HD800 is, still to this day, one of the most tonally neutral and transparent headphones around. At least among the ones I've tried (which are the vast majority of the high-end headphones of the last 6/7 years). I find that these characters, tonal neutrality and transparency, make it for a relatively easy headphone to fine-tune, should you not totally get along with the way it sounds. I'm all for analytical sound and, as such, have always enjoyed the way it is, even combined with other relatively "dry" gear (e.g. DAVE, XI Audio Formula S, etc.). But over time I've also had the chance to test it in combo to a range of other sources and found fairly easy to, for example, lose a tad of the hyper-detail in the highs, in order to make mids and low frequencies reacher and smoother. Try to combine an HD800 with a Violectric V281 for example or a Viva or, as in my main current setup, a Riviera AIC-10 (with the right triode valve - e.g. most of the Mullards).

In my experience, the only aspects of the HD800 which are difficult, virtually impossible, to correct are its total lack of any "visceral" bass reproduction, which actually affects most of the high-end headphones (with possibly the only exception being the Abyss 1266). Or the sometimes unnatural representation of the soundstage (while the hyper extended stage of the HD800 goes well with, for example, classical music, it doesn't necessarily fit equally well the most intimate jazz music - where the stage, in real life, is typically only a few meters long and not the tenth meters which an actual philharmonic orchestra takes..).


----------



## sm60

burbster said:


> Firstly, apologies as I suspect this topic Has been discussed several times previously, but I was hoping to perhaps get some more specific advice. As my son prepares to go to university my wife and I are downsizing resulting in my new allocated listening room being substantially smaller that my current one. So much so that I think I need to move exclusively to a headphone setup. I have just blindly ordered a set of 800s headphones. i have no previous headphone experience, so my question is will I need a headphone amp with my Dave? I currently use the Dave as a pre-amp in my speaker system and love That setup, so just wondering why do people buy separate headphone amps to accompany Dave and what does it bring to the sound? Is it a similar debate as to whether to run Dave with a preamp or not? Thanks


Others might disagree but I’ve not found my Dave to be compelling as a headphone amplifier. I love the DAC, especially when coupled with the M-scaler. That’s how I listen to it. The preamp feature is convenient but it doesn’t begin to compare to the sound you can get from a high end preamp (I use an Audio Research Ref balanced tube preamp). Chord itself offers several preamplifiers at different price points. I also have the Sennheiser 800S, the newer model snd I generally use the Sony TA-HZ1ES, which drives it far better than the Dave (for one, the Sony has a balanced headphone output conductor, which makes a significant difference with the 800S). But, if you want to economize for space and cost, you can always use the headphone output on the Dave. I don’t since I didn’t find the sound very compelling. It feels like an afterthought to me, like those Sony CD players where they threw in a headphone output. If I was a full time headphone listener and that time may be coming sooner than I’m imagining, when we too downsize to a smaller house or apartment,  I’ll be facing the same issue. Stick with the Dave and its less than stellar headphone capabilities or get something really better than even my Sony unit, like a tubed Woo Audio headphone preamp. The Woo’s can be a bit noisy depending on the NOS tubes you get.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

HD800s has an impedance peak of more than 600 Ohms at 90-100 Hz. Most headamps would drive these cans loud but bright.


----------



## jlbrach

I think the dave drives HP's like the utopia and others easily but falls short on anything much beyond...


----------



## number1sixerfan

burbster said:


> Firstly, apologies as I suspect this topic Has been discussed several times previously, but I was hoping to perhaps get some more specific advice. As my son prepares to go to university my wife and I are downsizing resulting in my new allocated listening room being substantially smaller that my current one. So much so that I think I need to move exclusively to a headphone setup. I have just blindly ordered a set of 800s headphones. i have no previous headphone experience, so my question is will I need a headphone amp with my Dave? I currently use the Dave as a pre-amp in my speaker system and love That setup, so just wondering why do people buy separate headphone amps to accompany Dave and what does it bring to the sound? Is it a similar debate as to whether to run Dave with a preamp or not? Thanks



I would generally agree with everyone that just starting out it would be just fine as you get settled into the headphone hobby to just use the HD800S with the Dave. If you aren't loving what you're hearing however, I would absolutely try an external amp behind the Dave before selling the HD800S off (ultimately, long term I would absolutely have a beefier amp + the Dave with them anyway). Also, The HD800S is one of the more niche headphones imo which is best suited for particular genres (jazz, classical, acoustic etc) and sound preferences tailored towards clarity and detail, with a slightly brighter tonality. I only mention this since you're brand new.. just don't give up on the HD800S too quick if you don't love it out of the Dave, and if you try an external amp and it still isn't for you, just know there are plenty of other top tier headphones out there that are much different. 

Welcome to the hobby.


----------



## nagi8404

Interested in how HD800s will sound straight out of the Dave as well...
My Dave is arriving in a few days and can't wait to try my HD800s and MDR-Z1R on it.

I'm hearing lots of good things about the Dave so I'm hoping I can be wowed as well.


----------



## JTbbb

nagi8404 said:


> Interested in how HD800s will sound straight out of the Dave as well...
> My Dave is arriving in a few days and can't wait to try my HD800s and MDR-Z1R on it.
> 
> I'm hearing lots of good things about the Dave so I'm hoping I can be wowed as well.



And I am interested to hear what YOU think, I personally like it. Would like to know how you get on with your Sony’s too.


----------



## nagi8404

I've been hearing Dave + HD800s to sound overly cold and thus not a great pairing.
I love analytical and transparent sound with every detail just attacking your skull.

Will definitely report back when it arrives and I put it to the test.


----------



## naynay

My Dave Dac is now listed for anyone interested.

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/chord-dave-dac.690/


----------



## Ratephi

...looks like you are going to love the DAVE/HD800s combo


----------



## Ratephi

nagi8404 said:


> I've been hearing Dave + HD800s to sound overly cold and thus not a great pairing.
> I love analytical and transparent sound with every detail just attacking your skull.
> 
> Will definitely report back when it arrives and I put it to the test.



...looks like you are going to love the DAVE/HD800s combo


----------



## iDesign

nagi8404 said:


> I've been hearing Dave + HD800s to sound overly cold and thus not a great pairing.


I agree. Though I never fully enjoyed the HD 800 or HD 800 S with my Eddie Current Balancing Act, Black Widow 2, Simaudio MOON 430HAD, or Sehheneiser's own HDV820. I turned the page with the Focal Utopia and its stunning with the DAVE.


----------



## JTbbb

iDesign said:


> I agree. Though I never fully enjoyed the HD 800 or HD 800 S with my Eddie Current Balancing Act, Black Widow 2, Simaudio MOON 430HAD, or Sehheneiser's own HDV820. I turned the page with the Focal Utopia and its stunning with the DAVE.



I have demoed at home Utopia and Empyrean’s, and still liked the 800S’s better. Horses for courses!


----------



## jlbrach

iDesign said:


> I agree. Though I never fully enjoyed the HD 800 or HD 800 S with my Eddie Current Balancing Act, Black Widow 2, Simaudio MOON 430HAD, or Sehheneiser's own HDV820. I turned the page with the Focal Utopia and its stunning with the DAVE.


I concur, the utopia works beautifully with the dave without an external amp


----------



## nagi8404

Hopefully the Dave won't wake up anything in me.
My wallet is already trembling!


----------



## burbster

Thanks for all advice guys, much appreciated. I am still waiting on delivery of my hd800s‘s, apparently delayed due to brexit! i was just listening to the John darko review of Dave and HD800s, he is quite negative, and even though he acknowledges how good they are individually, he flat out states they are not a good match for each other. But like nagi8404, I tend to favour a detailed presentation, so hopefully I will like the combo. (Darko did not have the MScaler in the chain for that review however)


----------



## nagi8404

burbster said:


> Thanks for all advice guys, much appreciated. I am still waiting on delivery of my hd800s‘s, apparently delayed due to brexit! i was just listening to the John darko review of Dave and HD800s, he is quite negative, and even though he acknowledges how good they are individually, he flat out states they are not a good match for each other. But like nagi8404, I tend to favour a detailed presentation, so hopefully I will like the combo. (Darko did not have the MScaler in the chain for that review however)


Would love to hear what you think after your HD800s arrives!
As I don't have access to the HMS I'm interested how it elevates the experience (if any)


----------



## 118900

burbster said:


> Thanks for all advice guys, much appreciated. I am still waiting on delivery of my hd800s‘s, apparently delayed due to brexit! i was just listening to the John darko review of Dave and HD800s, he is quite negative, and even though he acknowledges how good they are individually, he flat out states they are not a good match for each other. But like nagi8404, I tend to favour a detailed presentation, so hopefully I will like the combo. (Darko did not have the MScaler in the chain for that review however)


Don’t take everything Darko says as the absolute gospel (or anything even near that). No one can account for personal taste anyway, only you know what you like.


----------



## stemiki

And finally today, after three months of waiting, DAVE has arrived! 🙂🍾🍸


----------



## griff500

stemiki said:


> And finally today, after three months of waiting, DAVE has arrived! 🙂🍾🍸


Como is a lovely place to listen to your new DAVE.


----------



## 118900

stemiki said:


> And finally today, after three months of waiting, DAVE has arrived! 🙂🍾🍸


Bravo ragazzo, bravo. Buon ascolto


----------



## thePhones (Mar 16, 2021)

I really like all of my headphones straight out of the Dave. I love the sheer transparency, hearing every nuance. That said I do not like any of my headphones without EQ including the HD800 (now a few weeks with Dekoni fenstrated lamb skin pads). And I have not heard a headphone where I‘m completely satisfied with the tonal balance. For example, most headphones sound a bit to strong in the 200-500hz region for my ears, yes even the HD800 (but only after „removing the treble peaks)
The Problem with EQ is that you don‘t (or should I say, I don‘t 🙂) know what the algorithm does to the music. Some EQ‘s I tested sounded even brighter and harder than just leaving it off with the HD800 and the treble peak. To my absolute surprise USB-Audio Player Pro with the standard eq sounded best. So maybe try that before adding distortion with an external amp. Although talking about any kind of dsp is walking on very thin ice on this forum. But I think even @Rob Watts stated in the Hugo 2 forum that you could try a bit of eq.
Thats just my two cents or how you english people say 😄
With that greeting from Germany 🙂

Disclaimer: No music was harmed in the testing of my eq settings


----------



## burbster

thePhones said:


> I really like all of my headphones straight out of the Dave. I love the sheer transparency, hearing every nuance. That said I do not like any of my headphones without EQ including the HD800 (now a few weeks with Dekoni fenstrated lamp skin pads). And I have not heard a headphone where I‘m completely satisfied with the tonal balance. For example, most headphones sound a bit to strong in the 200-500hz region for my ears, yes even the HD800 (but only after „removing the treble peaks)
> The Problem with EQ is that you don‘t (or should I say, I don‘t 🙂) know what the algorithm does to the music. Some EQ‘s I tested sounded even brighter and harder than just leaving it off with the HD800 and the treble peak. To my absolute surprise USB-Audio Player Pro with the standard eq sounded best. So maybe try that before adding distortion with an external amp. Although talking about any kind of dsp is walking on very thin ice on this forum. But I think even @Rob Watts stated in the Hugo 2 forum that you could try a bit of eq.
> Thats just my two cents or how you english people say 😄
> With that greeting from Germany 🙂
> ...


Yes, my view on DSP in my speaker system has changed over the years. Originally, I felt the benefit of some basic EQ below 200hz to correct room modes (obviously not applicable to head phone listening) was transformational and massively outweighed any negative effect there may have been. But as I improved my system and more critically my room treatment and set up, I actually started to believe that I heard a negative effect of dsp, even if the room measured better with DSP turned on. I will do doubt experiment with EQ as Roon makes it quite simple, but I am hoping to run my headphones ‘bit perfect’ 
incidentally Roon seems to have some preset settings for Audeze headphones but nothing for the 800s.


----------



## sm60

thePhones said:


> I really like all of my headphones straight out of the Dave. I love the sheer transparency, hearing every nuance. That said I do not like any of my headphones without EQ including the HD800 (now a few weeks with Dekoni fenstrated lamp skin pads). And I have not heard a headphone where I‘m completely satisfied with the tonal balance. For example, most headphones sound a bit to strong in the 200-500hz region for my ears, yes even the HD800 (but only after „removing the treble peaks)
> The Problem with EQ is that you don‘t (or should I say, I don‘t 🙂) know what the algorithm does to the music. Some EQ‘s I tested sounded even brighter and harder than just leaving it off with the HD800 and the treble peak. To my absolute surprise USB-Audio Player Pro with the standard eq sounded best. So maybe try that before adding distortion with an external amp. Although talking about any kind of dsp is walking on very thin ice on this forum. But I think even @Rob Watts stated in the Hugo 2 forum that you could try a bit of eq.
> Thats just my two cents or how you english people say 😄
> With that greeting from Germany 🙂
> ...


In general I don’t like listening with headphones, unless I have no choice (e.g., on a long international flight). Headphones are just too colored sounding. When I play a choral piece or a classical or jazz recording through one of my reference Quad electrostatic loudspeakers or through the Harbeth monitors, the tonality is so superior to any headphones I have heard, let alone the distinct weird sensation of a large orchestra being trapped in my skull. It’s a very unnatural way to listen to the “absolute sound”, meaning music that is generally produced with acoustic instruments or voices. It might work fine for rock music or electronic music, which are manufactured in a way that doesn’t correspond to any notion of being performed live in a good hall. Peter Walker, the late designer of Quads, once used the phrase “documentary reproduction”, which seems a good way to characterize the phenomenon. I like the Sennheiser 800s since it has less of the trapped in the head effect and it is light and comfortable. I hated the heavy Audeze. It felt like torture wearing those. But as has been noted, the 800s is horribly colored sounding. It has a pronounced treble emphasis and lean sound, which is so unlike the sound of live music. Headphones will never in my view match the sheer quality of great loudspeakers.


----------



## Ratephi

sm60 said:


> In general I don’t like listening with headphones, unless I have no choice (e.g., on a long international flight). Headphones are just too colored sounding. When I play a choral piece or a classical or jazz recording through one of my reference Quad electrostatic loudspeakers or through the Harbeth monitors, the tonality is so superior to any headphones I have heard, let alone the distinct weird sensation of a large orchestra being trapped in my skull. It’s a very unnatural way to listen to the “absolute sound”, meaning music that is generally produced with acoustic instruments or voices. It might work fine for rock music or electronic music, which are manufactured in a way that doesn’t correspond to any notion of being performed live in a good hall. Peter Walker, the late designer of Quads, once used the phrase “documentary reproduction”, which seems a good way to characterize the phenomenon. I like the Sennheiser 800s since it has less of the trapped in the head effect and it is light and comfortable. I hated the heavy Audeze. It felt like torture wearing those. But as has been noted, the 800s is horribly colored sounding. It has a pronounced treble emphasis and lean sound, which is so unlike the sound of live music. Headphones will never in my view match the sheer quality of great loudspeakers.



...and thinking that, to me, the HD800s is one of the most neutral headphones I've ever owned!


----------



## Deolum

Did anyone compare Dave with Topping D90?


----------



## 118900

Deolum said:


> Did anyone compare Dave with Topping D90?


Yes I did. The Dave is more lozenge shaped with a cool porthole shaped display whereas the topping is a boring rectangle with a boring rectangular display. 🤣🤣🤣😜


----------



## burbster

sm60 said:


> In general I don’t like listening with headphones, unless I have no choice (e.g., on a long international flight). Headphones are just too colored sounding. When I play a choral piece or a classical or jazz recording through one of my reference Quad electrostatic loudspeakers or through the Harbeth monitors, the tonality is so superior to any headphones I have heard, let alone the distinct weird sensation of a large orchestra being trapped in my skull. It’s a very unnatural way to listen to the “absolute sound”, meaning music that is generally produced with acoustic instruments or voices. It might work fine for rock music or electronic music, which are manufactured in a way that doesn’t correspond to any notion of being performed live in a good hall. Peter Walker, the late designer of Quads, once used the phrase “documentary reproduction”, which seems a good way to characterize the phenomenon. I like the Sennheiser 800s since it has less of the trapped in the head effect and it is light and comfortable. I hated the heavy Audeze. It felt like torture wearing those. But as has been noted, the 800s is horribly colored sounding. It has a pronounced treble emphasis and lean sound, which is so unlike the sound of live music. Headphones will never in my view match the sheer quality of great loudspeakers.


i can’t speak from experience just yet as I am still waiting for my first ‘real’ set of headphones. I can however see what you mean regarding the trapped in your head sound, but not sure about headphones being coloured? Surely, in a very general sense they will be less coloured that most loud speakers due to there being no room interaction and less compromises with a singular small driver? Although Harbeths are not my thing I must say the Quads do have a remarkable and unique sound.


----------



## thePhones

Ratephi said:


> ...and thinking that, to me, the HD800s is one of the most neutral headphones I've ever owned!


It‘s my go to headphone regarding timbre accuracy. In that sense it also sounds neutral to me. But from a tonality point of view it‘s too bright for me (without eq)


----------



## MatW

Deolum said:


> Did anyone compare Dave with Topping D90?


Did you compare the pricetags?   

I have them both, but in different parts of the house. The D90 is a very nice DAC imo, certainly for the price, but this is not a fair comparison.


----------



## jlbrach

Deolum said:


> Did anyone compare Dave with Topping D90?


not much of a comparison is it?


----------



## burbster

Deolum said:


> Did anyone compare Dave with Topping D90?


I would be slightly upset if the Topping came any where near the Dave considering the price difference. I Did read one review that compares to qutest, which is a bit fairer.
https://www.headfonia.com/topping-d90-review/2/


----------



## MacedonianHero

Deolum said:


> Did anyone compare Dave with Topping D90?



Why would you do that?


----------



## 118900

MacedonianHero said:


> Why would you do that?







🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Deolum

Why wouldn't you do that comparison?

Both are Dacs
Both are D/S
Both are top of the line


----------



## 118900

Hey, at least I’m not the only one providing the laughs in here! 🤣


----------



## Triode User

Deolum said:


> Why wouldn't you do that comparison?
> 
> Both are Dacs
> Both are D/S
> Both are top of the line


Some of what you say is correct but not all of it. 

I would think that the general consensus, especially in a dedicated Dave like this, is that it would not be worth spending time on a comparison that was so unevenly matched just in the same way that we don't get many in depth comparisons of say the Mojo and the Dave except perhaps for some comments in passing. 

If you were hoping to start an ASR type of discussion that the D90 is as good as it is possible to get in a DAC then in all honesty I doubt that you will muster much enthusiasm in this thread.


----------



## gnomen

sm60 said:


> In general I don’t like listening with headphones, unless I have no choice


In general and for most of my listening life I agree with you.  However during lockdown, of necessity, I had to find a better headphone solution.  I had been using HD800s which are, indeed, objectively very good.  But nothing like live listening.  I have now arrived at a combo of the Focal Utopias and Lazuli Reference cable which is a significant step up.  The tonality of individual instruments is much closer to life like, to take one example.  So I would say, don't write off headphone listening unless you have the luxury of never needing to use them.  Cheers


----------



## nagi8404

Finally my unit arrived and got them set up.
Now time for me and Dave to get to know each other


----------



## LucyWu

I am more of a lurker than contributor on Head Fi (lack of time to get, little to say) but I am five weeks into waiting for my Dave. So congrats Nagi - looking forward to your impressions as I sit here, drumming my fingers on the desk, slumming it with my HTT2.


----------



## HeeBroG

nagi8404 said:


> Finally my unit arrived and got them set up.
> Now time for me and Dave to get to know each other


Why is Phase Neg?


----------



## nagi8404

I was just playing around with the menus and forgot to set it back to positive.
But honestly I have no idea what it does.


----------



## mammal

Not sure about Dave, but V281 (balanced amp) has 3 outputs, balanced 4 pin XLR and two single ended 6.3mm, one being positive the other negative phase. Perhaps other can comment if Dave does something like this?


----------



## 118900 (Mar 17, 2021)

*From the DAVE manual:*

Positive and inverted phase is for system matching. Some products invert absolute phase so DAVE gives the option to match (or correct) your system phase using the phase option. For Chord Electronics amplification you should select inverted phase for correct matching.

*explanation (likewise cut and paste from one more learned than myself):*

The analog music signal input to your preamp is alternating current. The electrical voltage of this signal constantly swings between positive and negative in a manner corresponding to the musical information (I know this is an oversimplification).

If the preamp outputs a positive voltage when the input signal is positive, the preamp does not invert phase (more properly called polarity). In this case the output signal is identical (except for amplitude) to the input signal.

If the preamp outputs a negative voltage when the input signal is positive (and also a positive voltage when the input is negative) then the preamp is said to invert phase (or invert polarity). In this case the output signal is a mirror image of the input signal.

If you're in the camp that believes that absolute polarity doesn't matter, then just relax and enjoy the music.

If you want the system to maintain absolute polarity, then you have to flip (i.e., invert or mirror image) the positive and negative going parts of the signal one more time.

The easiest way to accomplish this is to reverse the speaker connections as described above: right power amp + to right speaker -, right power amp - to right speaker +, etc.) *but the DAVE allows you to do this with the simple setup change from the menu.*

BTW, the point of this exercise is to keep the speaker diaphrams in polarity with the original microphone polarity. In other words when the michrophone diagram moves inward in response to an air pressure wave we want the speaker diaphrams to move inwards as well.

Trouble is, recording studios don't normally keep track of polarity, and some studio gear inverts it. Thus some recordings are correct, and others have inverted polarity.

On multitracked recordings, the absolute polarity may even differ from track to track, so that the two channel mixdown cannot be polarity correct.

Some preamps and most digital processors provide a polarity (or phase invert) switch to allow you to cope with polarity problems on the fly.

Inverted polarity usually shows up as "woolly" bass and soundstage problems.

The effect of improper polarity is called the Wood effect after the guy who first documented it. These has been much written both pro and con on this topic.

EDIT: I’m not going to comment on whoever first documented the “wood” effect. I could, at length (oooer, see what I did there) but I won’t...... 🤣🤣🤣😜


----------



## Carm86 (Mar 17, 2021)

Heya, so I know the M-scaler introduces some amount of latency to the signal. Does the Chord Dave itself, in PCM mode, introduce any latency into the system?

Ex: like with a video such as one of the following (playing at max framerate/resolution):

 

or


----------



## allenwong

Redflamingolingo said:


> I have A LOT of equipment running out of a wall socket with two outlets. One outlet is connected to a power strip that has all the following plugged into it:
> 
> TV, Auris Nirvana amp PSU, computer PSU, cell phone charger, M Scaler PSU
> 
> ...


Hi, Have you try put Humx into wall outlet and use it for power strip, and connect Dave with the power strip, is there still hum?


----------



## 118900

Deolum said:


> Did anyone compare Dave with Topping D90?


This is someone’s comment going from the D90 to an HTT2 if you are interested:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hug...nics-the-official-thread.879425/post-16244684


----------



## nagi8404

So 1 day after my Dave arrived.

First impression was "that's it?" but after few hours of listening to it and switching back to my RME ADI-2 I felt something was missing.
I can't put it to words exactly but music sounded more lively with the Dave while the RME sounded flatter and bit more boring.
Dave just wants to make me listen to more and more music.

I wonder if anyone else had a similar experience.


----------



## Triode User

nagi8404 said:


> So 1 day after my Dave arrived.
> 
> First impression was "that's it?" but after few hours of listening to it and switching back to my RME ADI-2 I felt something was missing.
> I can't put it to words exactly but music sounded more lively with the Dave while the RME sounded flatter and bit more boring.
> ...


Not quite, but I have a Dave and wanted a dac for a second system so I bought an RME ADI-2 without hearing it because they are well admired.

That was a mistake because I couldn't get over the slight harshess of the RME with some tracks. The only way it was acceptable was to use an aggressive filter setting to tame the treble but that was not satisfactory so I sold the RME and bought a Qutest for my second system and happiness was restored.


----------



## 118900 (Mar 18, 2021)

Triode User said:


> Not quite, but I have a Dave and wanted a dac for a second system so I bought an RME ADI-2 without hearing it because they are well admired.
> 
> That was a mistake because I couldn't get over the slight harshess of the RME with some tracks. The only way it was acceptable was to use an aggressive filter setting to tame the treble but that was not satisfactory so I sold the RME and bought a Qutest for my second system and happiness was restored.


The chord DACs definitely have something special. Even the “lowly” Mojo is a truly musical and magical component.


----------



## bikutoru

Rob Watts said:


> ... But by far the biggest loss is on the analogue power amplifier - the digital power amp will solve it (I know as the early prototype had amazing depth reproduction)....


It's been some time, still wander what ever happened to this "the digital powe amp" prototype. 
My guess is that "DX digital output" connectors on TT2 and Dave were meant for that.


----------



## musickid

dave with oppo pm1 listening to _i told you so_ by the delvon lamarr organ trio is fantastic. have a listen...


----------



## griff500

So I'm about to join the club.

I'm interested to see how this compares to my current TT2 and I'll be keeping my M-Scaler to use with it.


----------



## sm60

Ratephi said:


> ...and thinking that, to me, the HD800s is one of the most neutral headphones I've ever owned!


Unfortunately in my experience reviewers tend to use the word “neutral” as a euphemism for bright sounding (I’m not saying that you personally are doing this, just to be clear). When a Stereophile or TAS reviewer says an amplifier or a loudspeaker is “neutral” sounding, I mentally check that component off my list. If something sounds neutral, it’s not going to sound right with most recordings in my experience. Live unamplified music does not sound neutral. In a real concert hall, strings usually sound quite warm and full. Even a single woodwind instrument sounds quite majestic and full bodied.

Listening to my first orchestra live in Pittsburgh in the mid 1980s when I was a graduate student changed my life forever. I still remember that concert. It was the Sibelius violin concerto and Rachmaninov’s majestic Symphony Number 2, with Cho-Liang Lin playing the violin and Michael Tilson Thomas conducting. Magnificent rich sound. The hall echoed with the warmth of the strings and percussion. When I heard the first great soprano, the incomparable Jessie Norman, singing Richard Strauss’s Four Last Songs, I never knew a human voice could project into a large hall with that much presence. To me, live music is the golden standard. Headphones don’t come close to delivering that experience. The best speakers are still no match for the live sound, but are significantly less colored sounding than the 800s is. That’s my experience, in any case.


----------



## 118900

sm60 said:


> Unfortunately in my experience reviewers tend to use the word “neutral” as a euphemism for bright sounding (I’m not saying that you personally are doing this, just to be clear). When a Stereophile or TAS reviewer says an amplifier or a loudspeaker is “neutral” sounding, I mentally check that component off my list. If something sounds neutral, it’s not going to sound right with most recordings in my experience. Live unamplified music does not sound neutral. In a real concert hall, strings usually sound quite warm and full. Even a single woodwind instrument sounds quite majestic and full bodied.
> 
> Listening to my first orchestra live in Pittsburgh in the mid 1980s when I was a graduate student changed my life forever. I still remember that concert. It was the Sibelius violin concerto and Rachmaninov’s majestic Symphony Number 2, with Cho-Liang Lin playing the violin and Michael Tilson Thomas conducting. Magnificent rich sound. The hall echoed with the warmth of the strings and percussion. When I heard the first great soprano, the incomparable Jessie Norman, singing Richard Strauss’s Four Last Songs, I never knew a human voice could project into a large hall with that much presence. To me, live music is the golden standard. Headphones don’t come close to delivering that experience. The best speakers are still no match for the live sound, but are significantly less colored sounding than the 800s is. That’s my experience, in any case.


The dynamic range of a recording apparently doesn’t reflect real life performance anyway. At the end of the day a recording may come very close but will never really substitute a live performance. Add the colouration of amplifiers and transducers and matters get even more complicated.


----------



## jlbrach

being at a ballgame is always better than watching on TV but we still try to buy the very best TV with the most lifelike picture


----------



## Rob Watts

bikutoru said:


> It's been some time, still wander what ever happened to this "the digital powe amp" prototype.
> My guess is that "DX digital output" connectors on TT2 and Dave were meant for that.


There were some problems with the prototypes. The main difficulties were twofold - one was getting the 2nd order analogue noise shaper approach to work at high OP powers. The second issue was that I was getting more worried about signal correlated ground plane noise from the power rails upsetting sound quality. Now I could easily put together a dig amp that worked, but it would not have the transparency and musicality that the DACs currently have; so, I am not interested in doing it until I achieve parity with the performance of the DACs. Research is on-going, and I reckon these issues will get solved given time. So, I am afraid that you will have to be a little patient.


----------



## griff500

Having added the DAVE to my M-Scaler I have to say... great work @Rob Watts  

Just don't come out with a DAVE2 anytime soon. 🤣


----------



## 118900 (Mar 19, 2021)

griff500 said:


> Having added the DAVE to my M-Scaler I have to say... great work @Rob Watts
> 
> Just don't come out with a DAVE2 anytime soon. 🤣


😳 oops....


What Hifi Chord Electronics announces replacement for DAVE DAC


----------



## griff500

juansan said:


> 😳 oops....
> 
> 
> What Hifi Chord Electronics announces replacement for DAVE DAC


🤣 🤣🤣


----------



## 118900

griff500 said:


> 🤣 🤣🤣


I had a giggle myself coming up with that, thought you’d like it! 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## griff500

juansan said:


> I had a giggle myself coming up with that, thought you’d like it! 🤣🤣🤣


I laughed so hard I almost dropped my syringe!

Sorry, paraphrasing Nick Cave.


----------



## 118900

griff500 said:


> I laughed so hard I almost dropped my syringe!
> 
> Sorry, paraphrasing Nick Cave.


Astra Zeneca? 😜🤣🤣🤣


----------



## number1sixerfan

Deleted lol


----------



## nagi8404

Triode User said:


> Not quite, but I have a Dave and wanted a dac for a second system so I bought an RME ADI-2 without hearing it because they are well admired.
> 
> That was a mistake because I couldn't get over the slight harshess of the RME with some tracks. The only way it was acceptable was to use an aggressive filter setting to tame the treble but that was not satisfactory so I sold the RME and bought a Qutest for my second system and happiness was restored.


Now that you mention it, some tracks do sound harsh and piercing with the RME. The same harshness is gone with the Dave.



juansan said:


> 😳 oops....
> 
> 
> What Hifi Chord Electronics announces replacement for DAVE DAC


Jokes aside I hope the value of the Dave doesn't depreciate heavily after its successor gets released.


----------



## jlbrach

I dont think that is anytime in the near future so no worries and no matter what happens the dave will always sound fantastic


----------



## DJJEZ

I've had my TT2 for less than a week and already thinking about going for a dave. Please pray for me


----------



## Ciggavelli

DJJEZ said:


> I've had my TT2 for less than a week and already thinking about going for a dave. Please pray for me


That’s how it goes...  

I went from a Hugo 2 to the TT2 and then to a DAVE relatively quickly. The possibility of increased sound quality is a powerful drug.


----------



## iDesign

jlbrach said:


> I dont think that is anytime in the near future so no worries and no matter what happens the dave will always sound fantastic


Agreed. I could not be more fond of the DAVE and Blu MK II. I have logged what seems like thousands of hours with them and there’s a sense of occasion every time I slip on my headphones— that feeling won’t go away anytime soon.


----------



## jlbrach

same here...dave/blu2 and each time I get ready to listen it is an occasion almost like a private concert


----------



## 118900 (Mar 21, 2021)

nagi8404 said:


> Now that you mention it, some tracks do sound harsh and piercing with the RME. The same harshness is gone with the Dave.
> 
> 
> Jokes aside I hope the value of the Dave doesn't depreciate heavily after its successor gets released.


I think there will always be a market for products of that level on the second hand market, but it depends on what chord do as a replacement.

If they release something super high level that incorporates the Mscaler at a noticeably higher price than the current Dave (super Dave) I’m sure that they could even keep the Dave in the line up. If they do replace it as a simple evolution though there will obviously be some hit on the Dave but don’t forget, relatively speaking they haven’t sold that many so the market will probably still be a sellers market for a bit.

frankly I don’t see any radical improvements in products except for Rob’s tap length (which is even then an evolution). The mojo and Dave have both been out for about 4/5 years if I’m not wrong and frankly nothing out there beats them yet (from what I read/hear). I’m only waiting because a) the Dave has been around for a while now and it may be under review, b) I have only owned the HTT2 for about 3 months and I think it’s an incredible product and c) I frankly can’t afford it right now considering I ain’t go no money.

we can’t all afford to bump off the missus oops I mean send her away for the weekend and buy a new Dave just like that, eh @griff500 ? 🤣😜

I did ask him to adopt me but he ain’t listening, tut. 😜


----------



## musickid

They sold a large number of dave's and continue to do so to the present day i heard.


----------



## 118900

musickid said:


> They sold a large number of dave's and continue to do so to the present day i heard.


I would love/hate to hear one


----------



## musickid

just do it....


----------



## 118900

musickid said:


> just do it....


Na. Imma waiting this one out. My dealer doesn’t stock that much equipment and I’m basically forced to buy based on reviews.

I bought a pair of Audeze lcd-4z which although very good, weren’t quite what I was looking for and I ended up selling them for a €1200 hit.

 I have been very lucky with the chord stuff and frankly I’m actually really happy with my current setup so if and when Dave is replaced I will look at my options then.


----------



## musickid (Mar 21, 2021)

Wise decision. For me the allure of dave ownership won me over and i'm happy with my decision. I hope to add the mscaler at some point. It's rare to have hi end headphone audio in one's front room. A place to escape to at the end of the day.


----------



## 118900 (Mar 21, 2021)

musickid said:


> Wise decision. For me the allure of dave ownership won over and i'm happy with my decision. I hope to add the mscaler at some point.


What were you using before Dave?

and don’t say “Mike”, that’s just wrong......🤣


----------



## musickid (Mar 21, 2021)

mTT2 and before that mH2. There is definitely a pattern emerging here..

Currently stuck on acquiring the m for my Dave.


----------



## miketlse

juansan said:


> What were you using before Dave?
> 
> and don’t say “Mike”, that’s just wrong......🤣


This is the first that I have heard about this issue.


----------



## 118900

miketlse said:


> This is the first that I have heard about this issue.


😜


----------



## mammal

*Public service announcement*

Was at my local dealer today to pick up Abyss Diana V2, when he told me that they will be increasing price for all Chord products by 5%. This is to compensate for a price increase they see from the Chord dealership network. I don't see a point in him trying to mislead me, as I wasn't there to buy a Chord device in the first place (bought Hugo 2 from them a month ago).

So if you are thinking to buy anything Chord, consider doing it now! Unsure if this affects direct purchase from Chord, but worth calling your local dealer to ask about their upcoming prices. Hope this helps someone.


----------



## LucyWu

When I was first considering trading my HTT2 for DAVE, the sales guy - at a major Chord dealer in the UK - was hinting that there was a price rise on the horizon. True or not, only time will tell, but I got a price nailed down there and then.


----------



## PhenixS1970

Hi all,

Final Touch Audio Callisto USB 1m. for sale in classifieds section .


----------



## Carm86

Finally joining this club myself, the Dave is great  Gotta rearrange things in the stack but at least everything important is hooked up for now!


----------



## Triode User

Carm86 said:


> Finally joining this club myself, the Dave is great  Gotta rearrange things in the stack but at least everything important is hooked up for now!


Cool, welcome to the land of Dave. Happy times ahead for your listening.


----------



## nagi8404

Carm86 said:


> Finally joining this club myself, the Dave is great  Gotta rearrange things in the stack but at least everything important is hooked up for now!


Nice! How do you like the HPA4 with the Dave? or the amp itself in general.
I'm thinking of getting another amp myself and have been eyeing on it.


----------



## Carm86

nagi8404 said:


> Nice! How do you like the HPA4 with the Dave? or the amp itself in general.
> I'm thinking of getting another amp myself and have been eyeing on it.


I actually haven't tried the HPA4 with it yet, as my primary listening is with the Bakoon and Susvara or ZMF VC. 

In general, though, I love the HPA4 and can't imagine getting rid of it any time soon. I usually listen to my Odin's from it so I'll give that a shot later on and see how it goes with the new DAC


----------



## mammal

So, I have owned Mojo, year later Hugo 2, now upgraded to Hugo TT 2, always thinking it cannot sound that much better, law of diminishing returns and all. I was wrong, it clearly can... For my wallet's sake, I am going to pretend the law kicks in now and there is no audible difference coming from HTT2 to Dave (don't mention MScaler please).


----------



## 118900 (Mar 25, 2021)

mammal said:


> So, I have owned Mojo, year later Hugo 2, now upgraded to Hugo TT 2, always thinking it cannot sound that much better, law of diminishing returns and all. I was wrong, it clearly can... For my wallet's sake, I am going to pretend the law kicks in now and there is no audible difference coming from HTT2 to Dave (don't mention MScaler please).


Mscaler......😜

Congratulations. For all the H2s virtues, it’s an incredible difference isn’t it?


----------



## PortableAudioLover

mammal said:


> So, I have owned Mojo, year later Hugo 2, now upgraded to Hugo TT 2, always thinking it cannot sound that much better, law of diminishing returns and all. I was wrong, it clearly can... For my wallet's sake, I am going to pretend the law kicks in now and there is no audible difference coming from HTT2 to Dave (don't mention MScaler please).


Can you briefly comment on your experience with Superconductor cable?


----------



## mammal

PortableAudioLover said:


> Can you briefly comment on your experience with Superconductor cable?


For that I invite you to read my impressions in Diana's thread, not to pollute Dave's thread.


----------



## alxw0w

mammal said:


> So, I have owned Mojo, year later Hugo 2, now upgraded to Hugo TT 2, always thinking it cannot sound that much better, law of diminishing returns and all. I was wrong, it clearly can... For my wallet's sake, I am going to pretend the law kicks in now and there is no audible difference coming from HTT2 to Dave (don't mention MScaler please).


If you don't want to be triggered don't read my mtt2 -> dave switch review


----------



## mammal

alxw0w said:


> If you don't want to be triggered don't read my mtt2 -> dave switch review


For others who were searching for @alxw0w post, it is here


----------



## 118900 (Mar 31, 2021)

deleted


----------



## LucyWu

mammal said:


> For others who were searching for @alxw0w post, it is here


Thanks - I needed that! I shipped my HTT2 off to my dealer ahead of the arrival (alleged) of my shiny black Dave at the beginning of this week. Was hoping my new Dave would land with Nintronics today and I'd have a chance of getting it in my eager old claws before the weekend.

Deep breaths, long walks and not a little profanity rattling around my skull - and great reviews like the one from alxw0w stop me from blowing a fuse


----------



## mammal

For those who have Chord Dave and some other headphone amps: how difficult it is to drive Abyss Diana V2? Is Dave sufficient enough for EDM style of music? I spoke to people who said it’s fine for classical music, but that’s not what I listen to. Tried Chord Hugo 2 and that one was insufficient, had to supplement the power with V281 or BX-2 Plus, but wasn’t happy as it wasn’t one device solution. Now using Chord Hugo TT 2, which is powerful enough, so wondering if (eventually) upgrading to Dave would make sense for me. I know that for other headphones (like Arya, Clear) Dave is powerful enough, while for Susvara or AB-1266 it really isn’t. Thanks!


----------



## Ragnar-BY

mammal said:


> Is Dave sufficient enough


It depends on your preferences. In my opinion DAVE is sufficient only for very sensitive cans like Focal Utopia. Even with relatively sensitive Meze Empyrean I’ve heard the difference in power with TT2. Although, there are a lot of people, who would say that DAVE is sufficient for any pair of headphones.


----------



## DJJEZ (Mar 26, 2021)

mammal said:


> For those who have Chord Dave and some other headphone amps: how difficult it is to drive Abyss Diana V2? Is Dave sufficient enough for EDM style of music? I spoke to people who said it’s fine for classical music, but that’s not what I listen to. Tried Chord Hugo 2 and that one was insufficient, had to supplement the power with V281 or BX-2 Plus, but wasn’t happy as it wasn’t one device solution. Now using Chord Hugo TT 2, which is powerful enough, so wondering if (eventually) upgrading to Dave would make sense for me. I know that for other headphones (like Arya, Clear) Dave is powerful enough, while for Susvara or AB-1266 it really isn’t. Thanks!


For V2 should be OK but for 1266tc or susvara dave won't cut it for edm or bass heavy music.


----------



## jlbrach

the dave drives efficient HP's very well but benefits from an amp with the more challenging HP's...abyss, susvara, lcd-4 IMHO must have an amp ...in the case of the susvara the dave simply isnt up to the task..the other 2 can be used but are far better with an amp


----------



## MacedonianHero

mammal said:


> For those who have Chord Dave and some other headphone amps: how difficult it is to drive Abyss Diana V2? Is Dave sufficient enough for EDM style of music? I spoke to people who said it’s fine for classical music, but that’s not what I listen to. Tried Chord Hugo 2 and that one was insufficient, had to supplement the power with V281 or BX-2 Plus, but wasn’t happy as it wasn’t one device solution. Now using Chord Hugo TT 2, which is powerful enough, so wondering if (eventually) upgrading to Dave would make sense for me. I know that for other headphones (like Arya, Clear) Dave is powerful enough, while for Susvara or AB-1266 it really isn’t. Thanks!


The DAVE is endgame with the Diana V2...no need for anything further. In fact, anything more only adds distortion into your chain (which some may prefer).


----------



## griff500

Who is using the M-Scaler with their DAVE?

It provided a significant difference with the TT2 but I'm really not sure that it's doing all that much for the DAVE other than providing automatic source selection... Any differences there might be I am stretching a bit to notice, to the extent that I'm really not sure they exist.

It's still early days but I'd be interested to hear from other users.


----------



## 118900 (Mar 29, 2021)

griff500 said:


> Who is using the M-Scaler with their DAVE?
> 
> It provided a significant difference with the TT2 but I'm really not sure that it's doing all that much for the DAVE other than providing automatic source selection... Any differences there might be I am stretching a bit to notice, to the extent that I'm really not sure they exist.
> 
> It's still early days but I'd be interested to hear from other users.


Sorry but sometimes it’s like your just begging me to cut in........yes, it does absolutely nothing to DAVE SQ and you should *gift* it to someone that just has an HTT2 and no Mscaler.........

on a more serious note is it really that subtle with the Dave? Could it be that your brain is still getting used to the Dave (over the HTT2) and its overall SQ as a whole to the point that you still can’t pick out the subtle(r) effect of the Mscaler yet?

are you listening to 44.1 KHz or higher res?


----------



## griff500

juansan said:


> Sorry but sometimes it’s like your just begging me to cut in........yes, it does absolutely nothing to DAVE SQ and you should *gift* it to someone that just has an HTT2 and no Mscaler.........
> 
> on a more serious note is it really that subtle with the Dave? Could it be that your brain is still getting used to the Dave (over the HTT2) and its overall SQ as a whole to the point that you still can’t pick out the subtle(r) effect of the Mscaler yet?
> 
> are you listening to 44.1 KHz or higher res?


It's entirely possible that further adjustment to the sound from the DAVE is required. With the TT2 I noticed immediately but after living with it for a while it was even more noticeable when bypassed, so I understand that it can take a while to fully appreciate what is happening. 

I'm listening using USB (treated myself to a Sablon Audio 2020 against advice I was given) directly into the DAVE at the moment and it feels possibly more dynamic than with the M-Scaler. I'm going to listen for a while without the M-Scaler - if I find it more fatiguing then that might indicate something. 

I use Qobuz and it ranges from some 44.1kHz  (which sounds wonderful anyway), lots of 96kHz and some 192kHz (not much of that).


----------



## Ratephi

griff500 said:


> Who is using the M-Scaler with their DAVE?
> 
> It provided a significant difference with the TT2 but I'm really not sure that it's doing all that much for the DAVE other than providing automatic source selection... Any differences there might be I am stretching a bit to notice, to the extent that I'm really not sure they exist.
> 
> It's still early days but I'd be interested to hear from other users.




From a purely mathematical point of view, I believe that what you claim, makes absolutely sense. And, with limited exceptions, I tend to agree and confirm the same impression.

As far as I'm concerned though, I've come to the conclusion that the M-Scaler brings audible benefit - at least to my ear - only with specific genres (mostly classical and some jazz) and instruments (I tend to appreciate it the most with strings and percussions). For the vast majority of the music outside these couple of criteria, getting to hear and enjoy the M-Scaler is not easy to me. And frankly, most of the time, it is quite difficult to put in words what the M-Scaler does to the music I listen. Sometimes I simply feel that the music just comes across with a stronger "emotional load". How that happens, it's difficult for me to express.

One thing that I've realised over time is that my ears need more than just the typical A/B testing that we tend to do (whenever we are lucky enough to find dealers who let us do that). What I need, in order to appreciate gear like the M-Scaler, is to get my ears and brain used to them over a period of a few weeks. Then I can A/B with the setup I used before and decide whether or not the upgrade I made, was worth my money...

So long story short, what I'm trying to say is that, I'm not sure how long you've been playing the DAVE/M-Scaler combo but, before concluding on the effectiveness of the M-Scaler in this configuration, I would personally try to give myself more time with it and then decide accordingly..


----------



## griff500

Ratephi said:


> From a purely mathematical point of view, I believe that what you claim, makes absolutely sense. And, with limited exceptions, I tend to agree and confirm the same impression.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned though, I've come to the conclusion that the M-Scaler brings audible benefit - at least to my ear - only with specific genres (mostly classical and some jazz) and instruments (I tend to appreciate it the most with strings and percussions). For the vast majority of the music outside these couple of criteria, getting to hear and enjoy the M-Scaler is not easy to me. And frankly, most of the time, it is quite difficult to put in words what the M-Scaler does to the music I listen. Sometimes I simply feel that the music just comes across with a stronger "emotional load". How that happens, it's difficult for me to express.
> 
> ...


I was listening to Clapton's Unplugged song 'Running on Faith' - there is a bit where they are jamming and getting into it and the drum was quite 'in your face', if you know what I mean. It's a very lively and dynamic sound - loads of detail of course. Switching to the M-Scaler the drum was no longer quite so up front and moved back a bit. The drum was actually a bit distracting without the M-Scaler. An overall more relaxed sound but with no less detail. So there is a difference - it's just taking me more effort to find it but at least I'm starting to find it.

With the TT2 there is a collapse in the soundstage that is very noticeable with the M-Scaler bypassed but it's more subtle with the DAVE. I suspect that with more  time to adjust to the sound I'll detect it when bypassed as easily as I did with the TT2.

I'll continue with the M-Scaler for a while and I have a feeling that what feels like a more dynamic sound from the DAVE on it's own could be fatiguing. 

It's a killer setup either way, but I might be leaning back toward keeping the M-Scaler with it. I think it goes to show just how amazing the DAVE is.


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## 118900 (Mar 30, 2021)

deleted


----------



## burbster

griff500 said:


> Who is using the M-Scaler with their DAVE?
> 
> It provided a significant difference with the TT2 but I'm really not sure that it's doing all that much for the DAVE other than providing automatic source selection... Any differences there might be I am stretching a bit to notice, to the extent that I'm really not sure they exist.
> 
> It's still early days but I'd be interested to hear from other users.


Hi, I have both Dave and Mscaler, I found the difference quite significant TBH and genuinely struggle to listen to the Dave without it now. I realise that sounds ridiculous, and I am sure after readjustment solo Dave would sound fab again, but I really think it makes a big difference. Music is more 3 dimensional and palpable. For me it has by far the largest gains in SQ on locally stored Red Book CDs.


----------



## ZappaMan

burbster said:


> Hi, I have both Dave and Mscaler, I found the difference quite significant TBH and genuinely struggle to listen to the Dave without it now. I realise that sounds ridiculous, and I am sure after readjustment solo Dave would sound fab again, but I really think it makes a big difference. Music is more 3 dimensional and palpable. For me it has by far the largest gains in SQ on locally stored Red Book CDs.


Maybe there is a difference in - interconnects - or some other physical reason for perceiving the difference...


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## griff500 (Mar 29, 2021)

ZappaMan said:


> Maybe there is a difference in - interconnects - or some other physical reason for perceiving the difference...


Good question.

I've just noticed - WAVE Stream. Good choice @burbster


----------



## DJJEZ

Trying to get a dave for home demo. Upgrade-itis has gotten the better for me.

anyone else here managed to get a dave for home demo?


----------



## griff500

DJJEZ said:


> Trying to get a dave for home demo. Upgrade-itis has gotten the better for me.
> 
> anyone else here managed to get a dave for home demo?


I think that would be a mistake.


----------



## Ciggavelli

I also think the M-Scaler improves the sound of my DAVE. It makes things a little smoother and more analog.

Solo DAVE is sharper and more digital. However, some people like this better. Some could say the m-scaler is artificial smoothing and analog. I don’t think so, personally, but I can understand if somebody else felt that way.


----------



## griff500

Ciggavelli said:


> I also think the M-Scaler improves the sound of my DAVE. It makes things a little smoother and more analog.
> 
> Solo DAVE is sharper and more digital. However, some people like this better. Some could say the m-scaler is artificial smoothing and analog. I don’t think so, personally, but I can understand if somebody else felt that way.


That seems to fit my experience so far.


----------



## jlbrach

Ciggavelli said:


> I also think the M-Scaler improves the sound of my DAVE. It makes things a little smoother and more analog.
> 
> Solo DAVE is sharper and more digital. However, some people like this better. Some could say the m-scaler is artificial smoothing and analog. I don’t think so, personally, but I can understand if somebody else felt that way.


well put, I think IMHO that dave alone is a more digital listen while the m-scaler makes it more analogue...takes a bit of the edge off and to my ears makes it deeper and wider but thats me


----------



## sm60

griff500 said:


> That seems to fit my experience so far.


I suspect I have put on the most miles in this group in terms of experience with upsamplers. I owned the original dCS Purcell upsampler 25-30 odd years ago, which was arguably the first popular upsampler introduced to the high end audio community. Since then I have listened to dozens and owned 5-6 different upsamplers (from Esoteric etc.). With the Blu Mk2 M-scaler in place, Red book material seems to benefit the most. I listen almost entirely to classical music or older jazz or folk, and very little rock and roll. Upsamplers introduce some smoothing. It’s definitely a subjective effect. I know some who prefer the rawer un-upsampled sound. Some companies have gone to lengths to design filters and DAC’s that do not upsample. As with everything else there’s a trade off. Timing seems affected by upsampling. Tempos seem a bit slowed down. Mellow downs some of the  harshness in a lot of recordings. In the grand scheme of things, the benefits are far less than the effects of changing loudspeakers or headphones. I could live without the M-scaler if I had to. Far more difficult to live with speakers that have pronounced midrange colorations.


----------



## number1sixerfan

griff500 said:


> Who is using the M-Scaler with their DAVE?
> 
> It provided a significant difference with the TT2 but I'm really not sure that it's doing all that much for the DAVE other than providing automatic source selection... Any differences there might be I am stretching a bit to notice, to the extent that I'm really not sure they exist.
> 
> It's still early days but I'd be interested to hear from other users.



I got the Mscaler right before I got the Dave and I couldn't be happier. Same improvement I saw with the Hugo 2, I saw with the Dave. The beauty really is in the separation of and layers to the music. The Dave is great by itself, but it definitely improves things. That said.. and I've said this before, but _to me _the Mscaler is a bit overpriced, but so is pretty much everything summit-fi lol.


----------



## Orlok

number1sixerfan said:


> I got the Mscaler right before I got the Dave and I couldn't be happier. Same improvement I saw with the Hugo 2, I saw with the Dave. The beauty really is in the separation of and layers to the music. The Dave is great by itself, but it definitely improves things. That said.. and I've said this before, but _to me _the Mscaler is a bit overpriced, but so is pretty much everything summit-fi lol.


I had the TT2 for a few weeks before the Mscaler arrived and immediately noticed the big difference and the overall improvement. I agree about the Mscaler adding more separation and layers as well as the smoothing of the edges to provide a more analog type of character. I also agree it's a bit overpriced on its own but I sort of see it as part of the HMS/TT2 system as a component which really enhances the TT2 so that's how I justify it. Haha. It's about the whole of the two being greater than the sum of the two parts.


----------



## STR-1

A tantalising interview with John Franks https://audiofi.net/2021/03/the-right-chord-at-the-right-time/


----------



## miketlse

STR-1 said:


> A tantalising interview with John Franks https://audiofi.net/2021/03/the-right-chord-at-the-right-time/


Quite a few teases about possible new products.


----------



## saudio7

Would be nice to see addition to Qutest


----------



## MacedonianHero

Ciggavelli said:


> I also think the M-Scaler improves the sound of my DAVE. It makes things a little smoother and more analog.
> 
> Solo DAVE is sharper and more digital. However, some people like this better. Some could say the m-scaler is artificial smoothing and analog. I don’t think so, personally, but I can understand if somebody else felt that way.



I think its the exact opposite and makes it more digital...thus my preference for the DAVE as a standalone unit.


----------



## jlbrach

I disagree with peter here but that is why we have choice


----------



## griff500

MacedonianHero said:


> I think its the exact opposite and makes it more digital...thus my preference for the DAVE as a standalone unit.


What were the differences you noticed and what was it that made you prefer the DAVE on it's own?


----------



## MacedonianHero

griff500 said:


> What were the differences you noticed and what was it that made you prefer the DAVE on it's own?



Just what I noted...a reduction in the amazing nature of the DAVE as an analog sounding DAC.


----------



## griff500

MacedonianHero said:


> Just what I noted...a reduction in the amazing nature of the DAVE as an analog sounding DAC.


I was wondering if you had something more specific.  🤣


----------



## MacedonianHero

griff500 said:


> I was wondering if you had something more specific.  🤣


lol, sorry.   That was my prime factor in deciding to sticking with the DAVE alone. That's it.


----------



## muski

MacedonianHero said:


> lol, sorry.   That was my prime factor in deciding to sticking with the DAVE alone. That's it.


Have you auditioned an Innuos Phoenix USB re-clocker? I've loved it with both my M Scaler + DAVE and Devialet Expert 1000 Pro Dual. Very analog-izing...


----------



## bdjul

Hello everyone! Do you know is it possible to connect Dave to dCs bridge wordclock? Thank you!


----------



## LucyWu (Mar 31, 2021)

There is no clock input option on Chord Dacs (or MSCaler) - Rob Watts does not believe this is the correct approach to digital design.

You could put a box (Mutec or other DDC which allows clock inputs) between your source and the Dave and have that link to the DCS clock, but the gains are debatable.

None of these clocking schemes are fundamentally correct. There should be only one clock in the chain and it should originate with the DAC. All other approaches are compromises. In studios the clocking is not done for SQ but to ensure sync across multiple conversion paths. In most scenarios the word clock is really only syncing a PLL, so you ultimately are limited (or enhanced) by the quality of the PLL algorithm. Rob Watts believes (in this as in so many aspects of dac design) that his PLL is best and it runs from the internal clock only.


----------



## MatW

MatW said:


> I am currently listening to the DAVE with U18T and I do hear some noise on the right side. I did not with the Legend X, when I owned it. It is a little annoying but I still enjoy the pairing, because you only hear it during quiet parts of songs.


Update: it has been suggested that this might be due to the lack of LID technology in the U18T. I tested it with the Nio, which does have LID. The hiss is certainly less pronounced, but still there unfortunately.

I added a THX 789 amp to the chain, specifically for IEM listening, and with that setup, there is no hiss whatsoever.


----------



## mammal

For those who are interested in how much power Dave outputs with its single ended into different loads, Rob has just shared the following table:


----------



## muski

Very informative and innovative Darko video on how house plants can improve room acoustics. I'm sure it applies to headphone listening, too. (Though, obviously, only for open-back phones like Focal Utopia).


----------



## dolstein

Wish list for Chord Dave 2
-- Built in M Scaler
-- Built in streamer
-- 2 headphone jacks that can power two pairs of headphones in single ended configuration and one pair in balanced configuration


----------



## iDesign

dolstein said:


> Wish list for Chord Dave 2
> -- Built in M Scaler
> -- Built in streamer
> -- 2 headphone jacks that can power two pairs of headphones in single ended configuration and one pair in balanced configuration


Wishful thinking indeed.


----------



## DJJEZ

dolstein said:


> Wish list for Chord Dave 2
> -- Built in M Scaler
> -- Built in streamer
> -- 2 headphone jacks that can power two pairs of headphones in single ended configuration and one pair in balanced configuration


Sure for double the cost of DAVE


----------



## mammal

I think Rob missed an opportunity on April 1st, to "announce" such a device, haha.


----------



## miketlse

dolstein said:


> Wish list for Chord Dave 2
> -- Built in M Scaler
> -- Built in streamer
> -- 2 headphone jacks that can power two pairs of headphones in single ended configuration and one pair in balanced configuration


You will be waiting a long time.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/post-16275652


----------



## sadays (Apr 5, 2021)

dolstein said:


> Chord Dave 2 için dilek listesi
> - Dahili M Ölçekleyici
> - Dahili flama
> - Tek uçlu konfigürasyonda iki çift kulaklığa ve dengeli konfigürasyonda bir çifte güç sağlayabilen 2 kulaklık jakı


great request


----------



## Sampajanna

I use these Acoustic Revive "Floating Crystal" boards under some of my gear to good effect. Yesterday I put some EMF/RFI sheets between the crystals and the bottom stand underneath teh streamer and Mscaler. The Mscaler one in particular gave me an SQ boost. Was super cheap. MAybe it will help somebody....


----------



## Triode User

Sampajanna said:


> I use these Acoustic Revive "Floating Crystal" boards under some of my gear to good effect. Yesterday I put some EMF/RFI sheets between the crystals and the bottom stand underneath teh streamer and Mscaler. The Mscaler one in particular gave me an SQ boost. Was super cheap. MAybe it will help somebody....


That is interesting. What did the SQ boost sound like and which RFI sheets did you use (I have used 3M ones before)?


----------



## nanosword

I see this https://tmraudio.com/components/d-a...ac-preamplifier-d-a-converter-black-remote-1/
they offer 14 day return should I go with it or should I get new one ? I ask because I don't know if chord improve anything with new build.


----------



## number1sixerfan

nanosword said:


> I see this https://tmraudio.com/components/d-a...ac-preamplifier-d-a-converter-black-remote-1/
> they offer 14 day return should I go with it or should I get new one ? I ask because I don't know if chord improve anything with new build.



Get a new one, from a local dealer. You should be able to get a new Dave, with warranty, at around or not too far from the same price. (I believe, it's been a while since I bought mine and I did hear about some recent price hikes)


----------



## iDesign

number1sixerfan said:


> Get a new one, from a local dealer. You should be able to get a new Dave, with warranty, at around or not too far from the same price. (I believe, it's been a while since I bought mine and I did hear about some recent price hikes)


Agreed.


----------



## Sampajanna

Triode User said:


> That is interesting. What did the SQ boost sound like and which RFI sheets did you use (I have used 3M ones before)?


A smoothness, slight shift in soundstage as well. It opened up more. I used these copper ones we have here in Asia that are coated with 3M stuff. Here is the link: https://www.digikey.tw/product-deta...2FZP5w-j9mg8zUaSPHYkI3fTGC5mWttoaAhu3EALw_wcB


----------



## F208Frank

excuse me for asking this here, I am a dave owner, and looking to sell one soon but in the for sale/for trade forums suddenly I am not able to post replies on any of the for sale for trade threads? Anyone experience something similar? Is it because they are soon to take away that section and ask all memebers to use classifieds only?

thank you!


----------



## DJJEZ

Does anyone here own both the DAVE and holo may?


----------



## Ciggavelli

DJJEZ said:


> Does anyone here own both the DAVE and holo may?


I’ve been trying to find comparisons between the two recently as well. I couldn’t find much. Logically, a $5000 dac shouldn’t be able to compete with a $10,000 one, but the Holo May is getting great reviews nonetheless. I read in a thread somewhere where the poster compared the Mola Mola Tambaqui with the Holo May KTE and that person claimed they are of similar quality. I’ve never heard either, but the Tambaqui has been reviewing very, very well too


----------



## number1sixerfan

F208Frank said:


> excuse me for asking this here, I am a dave owner, and looking to sell one soon but in the for sale/for trade forums suddenly I am not able to post replies on any of the for sale for trade threads? Anyone experience something similar? Is it because they are soon to take away that section and ask all memebers to use classifieds only?
> 
> thank you!



Yup, they're slowly migrating from those forums (and functionality) to the classifieds only. Found out the hard way through trial and error lol. There's an informative post on the migration right above the link to the new classifieds section.


----------



## DJJEZ

Ciggavelli said:


> I’ve been trying to find comparisons between the two recently as well. I couldn’t find much. Logically, a $5000 dac shouldn’t be able to compete with a $10,000 one, but the Holo May is getting great reviews nonetheless. I read in a thread somewhere where the poster compared the Mola Mola Tambaqui with the Holo May KTE and that person claimed they are of similar quality. I’ve never heard either, but the Tambaqui has been reviewing very, very well too


I'm looking for comparisons too.


----------



## iDesign (Apr 11, 2021)

DJJEZ said:


> Does anyone here own both the DAVE and holo may?


While I don’t have experience with the Holo May, I did listening tests with the Holo Spring and my Schiit Yggdrasil A2 fueling my Eddie Current Black Widow 2. The Holo May would have a significant bridge to gap between the Spring and DAVE. At the risk of opening up another debate about R2R designs, I will just say I found the Chord DAVE to be a benchmark setting DAC both on paper and in practice.


----------



## ashok123

Has anyone compared dave against wells audio cipher or rockna wavedream signature or pacific dac? Pls share ur opinions. Thanks


----------



## Ratephi

Am very curious to hear if anybody has tried to feed the DAVE through one of the many digital to digital converters (DDC) available these days (other than the M-Scaler which, if I understand correctly, can also be classified as a DDC)? e.g. GD-Audio, Denafrips, etc.

As with all things hifi...I hear and read of miraculous results, produced by these devices but don't think I've ever read of anybody using these specifically with DAVE.


----------



## Articnoise

Ratephi said:


> Am very curious to hear if anybody has tried to feed the DAVE through one of the many digital to digital converters (DDC) available these days (other than the M-Scaler which, if I understand correctly, can also be classified as a DDC)? e.g. GD-Audio, Denafrips, etc.
> 
> As with all things hifi...I hear and read of miraculous results, produced by these devices but don't think I've ever read of anybody using these specifically with DAVE.



Not exactly what you asked for but pretty close so here it comes. I have used my Audio GD DI-20HE together with TT2 with IMO very good result.


----------



## Ratephi

Interesting, thanks! How would you describe the benefits of this combo? Have you had the chance to test it also against other devices? e.g. the denafrips


----------



## Articnoise

Ratephi said:


> Interesting, thanks! How would you describe the benefits of this combo? Have you had the chance to test it also against other devices? e.g. the denafrips


I have some other DDCs as well, but none from Denafrips.

In short the sound becomes more 3D, full and enveloping. The effect is very reminiscent of differences that you hear when you switch to a larger and better amplifier. The sound is also slightly more natural with a little richer mid-range, which I like. The only downside is that I lose a little bit of timing precision. This is not unusual and not limited to TT2, USB is more or less always a bit better than SPDIF on timing precision IMO.


----------



## griff500

Does anyone know if the phase should be set to positive or negative with ATC SCM40A speakers?


----------



## JTbbb

griff500 said:


> Does anyone know if the phase should be set to positive or negative with ATC SCM40A speakers?



From what I have understood of the instructions you use negative with Chord amps, there are no other suggestions.

Just change it over from the remote whilst listening, see if you can detect a change, and leave at the setting you prefer.


----------



## griff500

JTbbb said:


> From what I have understood of the instructions you use negative with Chord amps, there are no other suggestions.
> 
> Just change it over from the remote whilst listening, see if you can detect a change, and leave at the setting you prefer.


Negative had sounded a bit better but I hadn't found anything confirming the recommended setting.


----------



## Lgn3

griff500 said:


> Negative had sounded a bit better but I hadn't found anything confirming the recommended setting.


Negative for Chord amps is suggested in the DAVE user manual.


----------



## griff500

Lgn3 said:


> Negative for Chord amps is suggested in the DAVE user manual.


Damnit! I did have a quick look through and didn’t see that. I should’ve had a slow look through…


----------



## PANURUS (Apr 15, 2021)

griff500 said:


> Negative had sounded a bit better but I hadn't found anything confirming the recommended setting.


With a Chord Ultima 6, phase negative or positive is more important that to use or not a scaler. It’s a fact.
The sound goes in direction of the best tubes amplifier VTL.
More space. There is a lot more relief. The smallest vibratos in the voices are noticeable. The sound is more consistent. There is more material.
I think all Dave owners should go and listen to this difference. The Dave / Ultima marriage is a killer and I suspect that the fact that if little has been said about the effect of the phase shows that the association with other amps is not as beneficial and all the more if it's an integrated amp like my replaced SPM2650 or my monoblocks Pass Labs.

Without wanting to be too provocative, having listened for a long time to various ATCs with built-in amps, I would say that the THD level of Ultima amps requires to honestly reassess this option. I hope these suggestions won't blast some neurons. 😇


----------



## Sampajanna

Are you saying the phase negative is way better?


----------



## PANURUS (Apr 15, 2021)

Sampajanna said:


> Are you saying the phase negative is way better?


Yes I am, with Chord Ultima. Before it, I had never notice an important difference.
I remember, 5 years ago, that some had explained that according to the recording, it had a benefit to change the phase. Not wishing to play this, I had classified the subject and especially since at this time, I did not own a Chord amp.
I hope other Ultima amp users will comment on this topic.


----------



## Sampajanna

I will try again. Havent tried in a while. I dont have chord amps anymore, but still worth a try


----------



## HeeBroG

PANURUS said:


> Yes I am, with Chord Ultima. Before it, I had never notice an important difference.
> I remember, 5 years ago, that some had explained that according to the recording, it had a benefit to change the phase. Not wishing to play this, I had classified the subject and especially since at this time, I did not own a Chord amp.
> I hope other Ultima amp users will comment on this topic.


So it’s no longer recording dependent?


----------



## ecwl

Sampajanna said:


> I will try again. Havent tried in a while. I dont have chord amps anymore, but still worth a try


I was never a fan of the older Chord amps (and older Bryston amps). But the new Chord Etude and Ultima series are really something special. It's like they finally figured out how to merge the dynamics and transparency of the older Chord amps with musicality. The same applies to the new Bryston cubed series amps.


----------



## PANURUS

HeeBroG said:


> HeeBroG said:
> 
> 
> > So it’s no longer recording dependent?
> ...


----------



## JTbbb

I have the Etude and am now switching between negative and positive whilst listening to track 2 of The Pink Panther film score. There is certainly a subtle change with negative giving a little more space between instruments.


----------



## ecwl

JTbbb said:


> I have the Etude and am now switching between negative and positive whilst listening to track 2 of The Pink Panther film score. There is certainly a subtle change with negative giving a little more space between instruments.


I have the Etude also and from my standpoint, positive phase is the correct phase because I’ve done measurements on my system with DAVE Etude and my speakers to create room correction filters. I can’t comment on ultima amps or other chord amps though. 
Obviously, whether the recording was recorded with the correct phase would also matter.


----------



## griff500

Lgn3 said:


> Negative for Chord amps is suggested in the DAVE user manual.


I hadn't looked at the responses carefully enough. My question is about using it with ATC SCM40A speakers - active speakers.


----------



## JTbbb

griff500 said:


> I hadn't looked at the responses carefully enough. My question is about using it with ATC SCM40A speakers - active speakers.


As has been mentioned it suggests neg in the manual for Chord amps, and that’s it no other suggestions. So, just toggle between the two whilst listening to music and see if you can detect any difference.


----------



## griff500

JTbbb said:


> As has been mentioned it suggests neg in the manual for Chord amps, and that’s it no other suggestions. So, just toggle between the two whilst listening to music and see if you can detect any difference.


I did do that, as I had previously stated.

My question was if there was a specific recommendation for these speakers. Perhaps one of the many members here using a DAVE has the same speakers that I have and had found a recommendation somewhere.

Clearly you're not the chap who can answer my question but maybe someone else can.


----------



## Lgn3

With Ultima 5 I prefer negative but it is possible individual albums or tracks may  sound better with positive. When I installed Ultima 5 I listened to a variety of music over a few days with positive, switched to negative and found that setting to tick more boxes. Regarding your speakers I doubt if there is a definitive answer. If you don't trust your own ears contact ATC who will tell you how their amps are designed re + and - phase.


----------



## griff500

Lgn3 said:


> If you don't trust your own ears contact ATC


Being snarky?


----------



## Lgn3

griff500 said:


> Being snarky?


No. I really think the correct setting  is what sounds best to you.


----------



## Hooster

griff500 said:


> I did do that, as I had previously stated.
> 
> My question was if there was a specific recommendation for these speakers. Perhaps one of the many members here using a DAVE has the same speakers that I have and had found a recommendation somewhere.
> 
> Clearly you're not the chap who can answer my question but maybe someone else can.



Yes, there is a recommended setting. It is the one YOU think sounds the best. That is the setting that works best for you. It can change depending on the recording.


----------



## griff500

Hooster said:


> Yes, there is a recommended setting. It is the one YOU think sounds the best. That is the setting that works best for you. It can change depending on the recording.


I see. I was under the impression that there's a specific setting recommended for different amps. I get the bit about what sounds best - that can be applied to pretty much everything.


----------



## Hooster (Apr 16, 2021)

griff500 said:


> I see. I was under the impression that there's a specific setting recommended for different amps. I get the bit about what sounds best - that can be applied to pretty much everything.



There are so many places where absolute phase can be flipped, in the recording or playback stage, intentionally or by accident that there is no realistic way to recommend anything apart from actually listening.
(Thanks, Rob!  )


----------



## TheAttorney (Apr 16, 2021)

The Dave User Guide was probably written before the new Chord amps were available.
In which case, it's quite possible that the new amps don't invert phase (absolute polarity to be precise) in the way their older amp designs did.

And yes, recordings can flip polarity as well. I used to obsess about this, but don't worry about it so much any more because....

I found that over 90% of my albums were the correct positive phase.
And as my upstream components have improved, I'm finding that the wrong phase setting is less troublesome to me than before. It's more a case that the wrong phase now sounds "different" rather than "wrong" - to the point where occasionally the wrong phase may even give a more pleasing overall presentation.

There are still a handful of wrong-phase albums that really do sound wrong and, for those, I do bother to flick the phase switch.


----------



## griff500

Lgn3 said:


> With Ultima 5 I prefer negative but it is possible individual albums or tracks may  sound better with positive. When I installed Ultima 5 I listened to a variety of music over a few days with positive, switched to negative and found that setting to tick more boxes. Regarding your speakers I doubt if there is a definitive answer. If you don't trust your own ears contact ATC who will tell you how their amps are designed re + and - phase.


I asked ATC and they said you can't hear any differences so it doesn't matter...


----------



## Lgn3

griff500 said:


> I asked ATC and they said you can't hear any differences so it doesn't matter...


Good.Pretty much what I would have expectedl as I couldn't hear much if any difference with previous amps and they were Chord.


----------



## griff500

I received a further response from ATC to confirm that the amplification in my SCM40A speakers inverts phase and so the negative setting on the DAVE would be the 'correct' one for these speakers and this would 'maintain absolute polarity through the system'. 

Coincidentally, that's the setting I preferred (I did have a 50/50 chance of course).


----------



## Simon-in-Suffolk (Apr 23, 2021)

griff500 said:


> Who is using the M-Scaler with their DAVE?
> 
> It provided a significant difference with the TT2 but I'm really not sure that it's doing all that much for the DAVE other than providing automatic source selection... Any differences there might be I am stretching a bit to notice, to the extent that I'm really not sure they exist.
> 
> It's still early days but I'd be interested to hear from other users.


Hi, I am using M-Scalar with my DAVE.. without M-Scalar I find the DAVE relatively slightly filtered, which can improve the listenability on some very poor recordings or deliberately mastered rough recordings... however overall I prefer with M-Scalar and I find the M-Scalar the imaging, space around sounds, and sheer realism/authenticity or what ever you want to call it takes a step forward... the swing or timing seems to be subtly more pronounced as well.
I notice this most through magnetic planar headphones, but is still evident albeit lesser so through a connected Etude driving ATC speakers.

interestingly if I perform some sorts of  inline DSP with Roon when using M-Scalar I can find the results sounding less than stellar with DAVE , if I pass the RAAT unaltered and playing the media data unaltered I tend to find the results with M-Scalar more attractive and enjoyable.

Not that it’s any sort of technical measure... but I get more silly grin moments with DAVE and M-scalar than with DAVE alone ....


----------



## Triode User

Simon-in-Suffolk said:


> Hi, I am using M-Scalar with my DAVE.. without M-Scalar I find the DAVE relatively slightly filtered, which can improve the listenability on some very poor recordings or deliberately mastered rough recordings... however overall I prefer with M-Scalar and I find the M-Scalar the imaging, space around sounds, and sheer realism/authenticity or what ever you want to call it takes a step forward... the swing or timing seems to be subtly more pronounced as well.
> I notice this most through magnetic planar headphones, but is still evident albeit lesser so through a connected Etude driving ATC speakers.
> 
> interestingly if I perform some sorts of  inline DSP with Roon when using M-Scalar I can find the results sounding less than stellar with DAVE , if I pass the RAAT unaltered and playing the media data unaltered I tend to find the results with M-Scalar more attractive and enjoyable.
> ...



Hi Simon, great that you are still enjoying the Mscaler and now with Dave. Have you tried ditching Roon? I get much wider silly grins from Dave + Mscaler without Roon getting in the way.


----------



## LucyWu

Since getting my Dave and MScaler I too have ditched "pre-processing" of my files. I learned with my TT2 that HQPlayer which I've used (and enjoyed hugely) as default replay/upsampler for last couple of years with 1-bit DSD dacs harmed the overall presentation of the music with the Chord dacs.

I've never been much of a "hi-res" source file fan, and am pleased that redbook lives up to the promise of the Mscaling process.

I've never taken to Roon, don't like their whole "Roon Ready" schtick which seems more a commercial play than an engineering success (not many people claim Roon sounds great or best). Logitech Media Server and Audirvana seem to deliver the unaldultered bits best, and both nicely integrate Qobuz and local files, so I am happy with the results, especially with the Mscaler feeding Dave.


----------



## Triode User

Innuos are soon to release their 2.0 app which promises a good user interface to compete with Roon but without (hopefully) the degraded sound quality. It is unfortunate that so far the more sophisticated the user interface is so one pays for it with lesser sound quality. Anyway, the Innuos app is due out in May so we shall see. (I only mention Innuos because I own two of their streamers).


----------



## griff500

Triode User said:


> It is unfortunate that so far the more sophisticated the user interface is so one pays for it with lesser sound quality.


I find Auralic’s app to be very good and it’s regularly updated.


----------



## NYanakiev (Apr 23, 2021)

Hi all,

I am a long time Dave thread stalker but I will finally be joining the club.

I am moving up to Dave from a Hugo 2+2Go combo and a Focal Arche. I plan to mostly use it with my Focal Utopias+ Obravo Ra 21 C-Cu and the MMR Thummim.

I was lucky enough to get a pretty great offer for a new unit in black that is currently being built and receive the dealer's demo unit until my own arrives.

Any recommendations when it comes to must have accessories like a stand/anti vibration feet/Mscaler/external amp etc?

Any input is welcome!

EDIT: I intend to use a Sonore Optical Rendu with a linear power supply as the main source feeding Dave- anyone got any experience with this setup?


----------



## Triode User

NYanakiev said:


> Hi all,
> V if course).
> I am a long time Dave thread stalker but I will finally be joining the club.
> 
> ...


Congratulations. You will enjoy the Dave. My advice is to just use it as it is for a while and get used to its superlative sound before thinking of tweaking although high on my list if finances allow would be the Mscaler.

I have never been inclined to investigate anti vibration feet. The Dave sounds great without any (IMHO and YMMV of course).


----------



## griff500 (Apr 24, 2021)

Triode User said:


> I have never been inclined to investigate anti vibration feet.


Well, until you've tried them...


----------



## Simon-in-Suffolk (Apr 23, 2021)

Triode User said:


> Hi Simon, great that you are still enjoying the Mscaler and now with Dave. Have you tried ditching Roon? I get much wider silly grins from Dave + Mscaler without Roon getting in the way.


Hi, I use multiple inputs including upnp... and if I perform no processing I find Roon‘s RAAT as good as anything else... but I do love the usability and curation capabilities of Room.. brilliant for the music recording enthusiast...
I have ensured with my Naim transport  I override the default Roon sample word size down to 24 bit (if I do any loudness levelling) for optimum feel... especially with M-Scalar.


----------



## muski

NYanakiev said:


> EDIT: I intend to use a Sonore Optical Rendu with a linear power supply as the main source feeding Dave- anyone got any experience with this setup?


I feed my M Scaler + DAVE an OpticalRendu—works great. Very, very black background. 

My two favorite accessories are an Audiquest Niagara 1200 and an Innous Phoenix USB. Alas, neither are inexpensive, but the impact is significant.


----------



## jlbrach

same setup I have optical rendu and phoenix


----------



## Ciggavelli (Apr 23, 2021)

muski said:


> I feed my M Scaler + DAVE an OpticalRendu—works great. Very, very black background.
> 
> My two favorite accessories are an Audiquest Niagara 1200 and an Innous Phoenix USB. Alas, neither are inexpensive, but the impact is significant.


I'm rocking the Innuos Phoenix USB with an Isotek Sigmas with my mDAVE.  Both definitely make a very noticeable improvement.  The Innuos Phoenix is controversial though (kinda with power conditioners too), as some people say they shouldn't impact the sound quality at all.  I don't know why they say it, but something about measurements, blah, blah, blah.  A lot of times they haven't even tried it personally though


----------



## NYanakiev (Apr 24, 2021)

muski said:


> I feed my M Scaler + DAVE an OpticalRendu—works great. Very, very black background.
> 
> My two favorite accessories are an Audiquest Niagara 1200 and an Innous Phoenix USB. Alas, neither are inexpensive, but the impact is significant.


Excellent stuff. I intend to use the Optical Rendu wired to my music server and Roon Core:

https://www.vortexbox.co.uk/Audiostore_Prestige_3/p317978_16932231.aspx

i5+8GB RAM+1TB SSD; this is basically the UK version of Small Green Computer's products

I was using a Rasperry Pi 4B as a Roon endpoint over WiFi until now but definitely upgrading it to the Optical Rendu now that you guys kindly shared your experience with it.


----------



## griff500

Has anyone noticed any difference using dual BNC into inputs 3 and 4 rather than 1 and 2? I haven't tried yet and I don't expect a difference but I wondered if anyone has compared.

I'm really enjoying the sound I'm getting from the mDAVE at the moment. I've upgraded power distribution and that improved things noticeably (by a surprising amount). I've also got a PhoenixNET on the way to try.


----------



## thePhones

griff500 said:


> Has anyone noticed any difference using dual BNC into inputs 3 and 4 rather than 1 and 2? I haven't tried yet and I don't expect a difference but I wondered if anyone has compared.
> 
> I'm really enjoying the sound I'm getting from the mDAVE at the moment. I've upgraded power distribution and that improved things noticeably (by a surprising amount). I've also got a PhoenixNET on the way to try.



Just chose 3/4 because others have mentioned that some units of dave go out of dual-mode sometimes, but also because the analoge and digital cables are further apart. I also haven‘t done listening tests.


----------



## Lgn3

NYanakiev said:


> Excellent stuff. I intend to use the Optical Rendu wired to my music server and Roon Core:
> 
> https://www.vortexbox.co.uk/Audiostore_Prestige_3/p317978_16932231.aspx
> 
> ...


I came across the Prestige a while back but it seemed to cost a fair bit more than a theoretically more powerful NUC. I just wondered what you felt  the advantages compared to a NUC .are


----------



## NYanakiev

Lgn3 said:


> I came across the Prestige a while back but it seemed to cost a fair bit more than a theoretically more powerful NUC. I just wondered what you felt  the advantages compared to a NUC .are


Hardware. Warranty. Support. No RFI, Logitech Media Server functionality etc etc etc


----------



## Lgn3

NYanakiev said:


> Hardware. Warranty. Support. No RFI, Logitech Media Server functionality etc etc etc


Thanks.


----------



## Glossator

Triode User said:


> Congratulations. You will enjoy the Dave. My advice is to just use it as it is for a while and get used to its superlative sound before thinking of tweaking although high on my list if finances allow would be the Mscaler.
> 
> I have never been inclined to investigate anti vibration feet. The Dave sounds great without any (IMHO and YMMV of course).


Nick - I was skeptical ... and then astonished.   It really does make a very surprising difference ... even through headphones.   And it need not be expensive .... http://www.ingress-engineering.ca/ ...


----------



## Sampajanna

I asked this before, but just reaching out again before purchasing. What difference did any of you hear in upgrading the DC4 cable to the Dave to the gold/silver version? Thanks for any feedback. I know Nick went a different road, happy to hear about how that is turning out as well...


----------



## dolstein

Just curious - with the Blu upsampling CD player discontinued, why hasn't Chord released a version of the M-Scaler in a case that matches the DAVE DAC?


----------



## dolstein

Ciggavelli said:


> I’ve been trying to find comparisons between the two recently as well. I couldn’t find much. Logically, a $5000 dac shouldn’t be able to compete with a $10,000 one, but the Holo May is getting great reviews nonetheless. I read in a thread somewhere where the poster compared the Mola Mola Tambaqui with the Holo May KTE and that person claimed they are of similar quality. I’ve never heard either, but the Tambaqui has been reviewing very, very well too


 Actually, it's not as illogical as it might appear, at least if you're comparing gear made by a company that sells direct to consumers versus one that relies on a dealer network.  A lot of high end gear sold through dealers has a very substantial dealer mark-up.


----------



## iDesign

dolstein said:


> Just curious - with the Blu upsampling CD player discontinued, why hasn't Chord released a version of the M-Scaler in a case that matches the DAVE DAC?


It seems like a reasonable idea and to reuse the clean, simple Étude chassis.


----------



## alxw0w

griff500 said:


> Has anyone noticed any difference using dual BNC into inputs 3 and 4 rather than 1 and 2? I haven't tried yet and I don't expect a difference but I wondered if anyone has compared.
> 
> I'm really enjoying the sound I'm getting from the mDAVE at the moment. I've upgraded power distribution and that improved things noticeably (by a surprising amount). I've also got a PhoenixNET on the way to try.


Lately I compared inputs 1&2 vs 3&4 using the m scaler.
And my findings were that 3&4 sound a tad darker/smoother.
And I'm not using RCA outputs of the Dave. So I don't know where the difference comes from.
You can find my posts "couple" of pages back.


----------



## NYanakiev

Today will be a fun day in the home office! 
Should be getting my own black unit in the next 4 weeks.


----------



## LucyWu

NYanakiev said:


> Today will be a fun day in the home office!
> Should be getting my own black unit in the next 4 weeks.


Fantastic - I waited about ten weeks for my black Dave - had it three weeks now and it's everything I expected (and more, but the MScaler enters the story at that point).


----------



## NYanakiev (Apr 28, 2021)

LucyWu said:


> Fantastic - I waited about ten weeks for my black Dave - had it three weeks now and it's everything I expected (and more, but the MScaler enters the story at that point).


Hehe, nice! I got a rather attractive trade-in offer for my Focal Arche and Mojo+Poly, which significantly lowers the price of admission to getting my own Mscaler.
Funny thing is I will likely have the Mscaler before DAVE if I do go down that route!

EDIT: speaking of which, would you guys recommend using Dave on its own to begin with and adding a Mscaler later on? Or just going all out and getting the two together?


----------



## LucyWu

NYanakiev said:


> EDIT: speaking of which, would you guys recommend using Dave on its own to begin with and adding a Mscaler later on? Or just going all out and getting the two together?


I had the Dave for ten days before the Mscaler arrived, but I would not claim I had fully bedded into the Dave sound. One thing is for certain, once the Mscaler is in play, you probably won't bother going back to straight Dave.


----------



## griff500

NYanakiev said:


> EDIT: speaking of which, would you guys recommend using Dave on its own to begin with and adding a Mscaler later on? Or just going all out and getting the two together?


If you want to be able to compare without and without the M-Scaler then you want to get fully adjusted to the DAVE sound before you get the M-Scaler.

Or just get the M-Scaler and be done with it.


----------



## burbster

Triode User said:


> Hi Simon, great that you are still enjoying the Mscaler and now with Dave. Have you tried ditching Roon? I get much wider silly grins from Dave + Mscaler without Roon getting in the way.


Hi Nick, can I ask what software you are using with your antipodes. When I upgraded from my G1 to the ex & cx solution, I switched to Roon the same time and was happy with the overall improvement in sound. But now wondering is there more to be squeezed out them if I change software. 
thanks


----------



## Triode User

burbster said:


> Hi Nick, can I ask what software you are using with your antipodes. When I upgraded from my G1 to the ex & cx solution, I switched to Roon the same time and was happy with the overall improvement in sound. But now wondering is there more to be squeezed out them if I change software.
> thanks



I am still playing around but bottom of my list for sound quality is Roon + Roon RAAT player with Dave or the Mscaler selected as the audio output in Roon. This is not even using Roon for any DSP but just using it for file selection

Better than that IMO is Roon on the K50 server and using HQP + NAA as a player with no processing done by HQP. For this I do not use any upsampling or filters on HQP (I set them all to 'none'), so I just use it as a player.  Another alternative is ditching Roon altogether and using the HQPD app on an ipad etc for file selection (again just using HQP set to none for all upsampling and filters) and using the HQP NAA player. This sounds OK but I find both HQP and the HQPD app are pretty flakey to use if one is used to Roon. I only really include these options because I tried them, not because I recommend them.

Better still for than all of these for me is using Squeeze on the K50 server and player (outputting via USB or BNC, both outputs have their advantages but with the latter I can use my own spdif BNC cables which I prefer). With Squeeze on the K50 I use the web based Material app for file selection and find this works well. It also has Qobuz and other app integration.

I tried MPD early on and didnt think it was as good as Squeeze. Squeeze is a push app so as far as I understand it and so allows the player to do minimal processing and MPD (again as far as I understand it) is a pull app so the player is doing more work / processing and possibly generating more noise because of that. But then again I might have got it all wrapped around my neck! I still might go back and try MPD.

All in all, I suggest you have a play for yourself. The Antipides streamers are very flexible and offer a number of server / player app options but by far the best is to try them yourself in your own system with Dave or Mscaler.

Hope I have helped rather than confused things.


----------



## burbster

Triode User said:


> I am still playing around but bottom of my list for sound quality is Roon + Roon RAAT player with Dave or the Mscaler selected as the audio output in Roon. This is not even using Roon for any DSP but just using it for file selection
> 
> Better than that IMO is Roon on the K50 server and using HQP + NAA as a player with no processing done by HQP. For this I do not use any upsampling or filters on HQP (I set them all to 'none'), so I just use it as a player.  Another alternative is ditching Roon altogether and using the HQPD app on an ipad etc for file selection (again just using HQP set to none for all upsampling and filters) and using the HQP NAA player. This sounds OK but I find both HQP and the HQPD app are pretty flakey to use if one is used to Roon. I only really include these options because I tried them, not because I recommend them.
> 
> ...


Thanks Nick yes you have helped Very much! I’m an in the process of moving house and setting up a new listening room, so I will take this opportunity to also try some new software combos. The EX only has a usb out but I am considering a digital to digital converter to use coaxial or even optical into my mscaler. If I do go coaxial I may be in touch for another one of your cables! Thanks again.


----------



## LucyWu

I recently switched from HQP as my primary player to Audirvana on W10. Couldn't be happier and Qobuz works nicely through A+ too. HQPlayer needs Roon or another streaming frontend for that.

Logitech LMS/Squeezelight also work nicely and sound excellent.


----------



## Sampajanna

Nick did you switch from Statement to Antipodes? If so what was the upgrade? Also, I would like to know more about your shileding efforts of DC4 to Dave cabel . Thanks!


----------



## NYanakiev (Apr 29, 2021)

griff500 said:


> If you want to be able to compare without and without the M-Scaler then you want to get fully adjusted to the DAVE sound before you get the M-Scaler.
> 
> Or just get the M-Scaler and be done with it.


Got too good a trade-in offer on my Focal Arche and Mojo+Poly combo to say no. Black Mscaler landing on Friday 

It is just a bit of a shame I won't be able to use it until my own DAVE arrives in about a month from now.


----------



## NYanakiev

Now with my new Roon endpoint


----------



## nagi8404

I've always wondered, does network transports have an audible improvement over straight USB from a computer.
I have the DAVE and been thinking of ways to tap its full potential.


----------



## mammal

nagi8404 said:


> I've always wondered, does network transports have an audible improvement over straight USB from a computer.


I was surprised when I first connected Hugo 2 via USB to Raspberry Pi 4 - when I was not playing any music and connected an external amp (high gain, full volume) I was able to hear every single keyboard interrupt. Hugo 2 was battery powered and Raspberry Pi 4 was via normal Apple USB charger, so no expensive LPS in the chain. Yes, this was audible only on max volume+gain, but still left me wondering how much less dynamics (higher noise floor) do I perceive when I have this setup. Since then I have bought HTT2, where I do not need an external amp, so cannot reproduce this anymore, but still ordered (and waiting) for Pi2AES to have my Roon RAAT streaming via Optical IN, instead of USB. Worth experimenting, I think.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

nagi8404 said:


> I've always wondered, does network transports have an audible improvement over straight USB from a computer.
> I have the DAVE and been thinking of ways to tap its full potential.


Actually, difference might be surprisingly big, depending on what transport and software you use. Also, there is a good way of improving your computer’s USB - Inuuos Phoenix USB.


----------



## nagi8404

Thanks for the replies, my friend is retiring his PS Audio Power Plant Premier and Lumin U1 Mini to me so I'm hoping there will be a sound improvement. I have been using zero power conditioning and straight off the PC up until now.


----------



## burbster

nagi8404 said:


> I've always wondered, does network transports have an audible improvement over straight USB from a computer.
> I have the DAVE and been thinking of ways to tap its full potential.


In my personal experience, moving from a Mac book pro to various dedicated audio servers, made a huge difference. Would be interesting to find out whether something like the Phoenix can take a standard computer up to the sonic performance of a dedicated audio server though.


----------



## NYanakiev

Ragnar-BY said:


> Actually, difference might be surprisingly big, depending on what transport and software you use. Also, there is a good way of improving your computer’s USB - Inuuos Phoenix USB.


That's a crazy expensive way to improve on a PC connection :O 

I just noticed we have very similar setups hehe! I messaged Nick at WAVE about his Storm BNC cables earlier today.


----------



## griff500

NYanakiev said:


> I messaged Nick at WAVE about his Storm BNC cables earlier today.


Very much worthwhile.


----------



## griff500

nagi8404 said:


> I've always wondered, does network transports have an audible improvement over straight USB from a computer.


Yes.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III (Apr 30, 2021)

Does anyone here know the 'DB volume difference' between the XLR out signal and the RCA phono out signal on the Dave?

Tia

EDIT: NOW HAVE THE ANSWER = 6db LOWER FOR THE RCA OUTPUT


----------



## Rob Watts

Balanced XLR doubles the available voltage into a power amp (Dave's XLR is for pre or power amps only, not headphones) so its a change of +6dB.


----------



## NYanakiev

Oh well, I just had to have a listen before I take the demo DAVE back


----------



## NYanakiev

NYanakiev said:


> Oh well, I just had to have a listen before I take the demo DAVE back






Now that's better


----------



## VladYR

Has anyone experimented with high end power cords with their Dave? Earlier I read some users saying that they don’t make much or any difference on the Dave because of the way it’s power supply is designed. Before picking up Dave 3 weeks ago I had a Sony TAZH1ES amp and the difference was substantial with Nordost Frey 2 cables.


----------



## griff500

VladYR said:


> Has anyone experimented with high end power cords with their Dave? Earlier I read some users saying that they don’t make much or any difference on the Dave because of the way it’s power supply is designed. Before picking up Dave 3 weeks ago I had a Sony TAZH1ES amp and the difference was substantial with Nordost Frey 2 cables.


I've heard from knowledgeable people that the DAVE is quite sensitive to power, so I guess it depends who you talk to. If you said that about the TT2 then I would agree. 

I have tried an Ansuz C2 and it does provide noticeable improvements. I have a feeling that the biggest improvement would come from a DC4 power supply and I'll be looking to try one at some point. I do use a decent power distributor and I found that it provided a noticeable improvement to the sound.

I think the importance of the power is often underestimated, but we don't want the DAVE thread to descend into a cable thread. People seem to get very emotional about it.  🤷‍♂️


----------



## VladYR

griff500 said:


> I've heard from knowledgeable people that the DAVE is quite sensitive to power, so I guess it depends who you talk to. If you said that about the TT2 then I would agree.
> 
> I have tried an Ansuz C2 and it does provide noticeable improvements. I have a feeling that the biggest improvement would come from a DC4 power supply and I'll be looking to try one at some point. I do use a decent power distributor and I found that it provided a noticeable improvement to the sound.
> 
> I think the importance of the power is often underestimated, but we don't want the DAVE thread to descend into a cable thread. People seem to get very emotional about it.  🤷‍♂️


Thanks. I thought as much. The DC 4 seems like an interesting but wildly impractical solution in my case. It takes up quite a lot of space and I would guess make a fair amount of humming/buzzing noise that would be audible up close. I’ll stick with my Ansuz Mainz8 X TC and Nordost cables. They take far less space comparatively speaking. Have you had a chance to compare Nordost and Ansuz?


----------



## griff500

VladYR said:


> Thanks. I thought as much. The DC 4 seems like an interesting but wildly impractical solution in my case. It takes up quite a lot of space and I would guess make a fair amount of humming/buzzing noise that would be audible up close. I’ll stick with my Ansuz Mainz8 X TC and Nordost cables. They take far less space comparatively speaking. Have you had a chance to compare Nordost and Ansuz?


I don't think you'd get any humming or buzzing from the DC4.

I've got the Mainz8 C2 distributor after previously trying the A2, along with a few C2 cables. The A2 was really good as well. Ansuz stuff is good and I have been very pleased with it. 

I've not tried Nordost. 

I intend to try Sablon Audio at some point soon (I already use the 2020 USB and I've got a couple of ethernet cables on their way).

I'd be surprised if you didn't notice an improvement by upgrading the power cable to your DAVE but there's only one way to find out!


----------



## VladYR

griff500 said:


> I don't think you'd get any humming or buzzing from the DC4.
> 
> I've got the Mainz8 C2 distributor after previously trying the A2, along with a few C2 cables. The A2 was really good as well. Ansuz stuff is good and I have been very pleased with it.
> 
> ...


There is a performance improvement for sure. It’s not night and day but noticeable enough. I did it backwards though. I used the Dave for the last few weeks with that power distributor and two Frey 2 cables, which are roughly equivalent of A2 in the Ansuz lineup according to a dealer friend of mine who used to carry both brands. Sound is great. After reading some of these posts I wanted to hear what Dave sounds like by itself with the cheap Chinese cord that comes in the box. Definitely not bad, but then again, it’s an 11k dac/amp and it ought to sound fantastic on its own merits. Those better cords just add that tiny pinch of excitement that’s certainly appreciated. I might upgrade the power distributor at some point.


----------



## griff500

VladYR said:


> There is a performance improvement for sure. It’s not night and day but noticeable enough. I did it backwards though. I used the Dave for the last few weeks with that power distributor and two Frey 2 cables, which are roughly equivalent of A2 in the Ansuz lineup according to a dealer friend of mine who used to carry both brands. Sound is great. After reading some of these posts I wanted to hear what Dave sounds like by itself with the cheap Chinese cord that comes in the box. Definitely not bad, but then again, it’s an 11k dac/amp and it ought to sound fantastic on its own merits. Those better cords just add that tiny pinch of excitement that’s certainly appreciated. I might upgrade the power distributor at some point.


Did you try the DAVE into the wall socket after getting used to it with the distributor? I notice benefits more when they are removed.

You've got one of your Frey 2 cables from the wall into the distributor?

Are you using your DAVE into the marked outlet on the distributor?

I'm sure you've got it all set up great but thought it worth asking.


----------



## VladYR

griff500 said:


> Did you try the DAVE into the wall socket after getting used to it with the distributor? I notice benefits more when they are removed.
> 
> You've got one of your Frey 2 cables from the wall into the distributor?
> 
> ...


Yes, that is exactly what I did. And yes to all of the other questions. It’s easy to make rookie mistakes in this hobby as a novice though. Some dealers don’t make it easier either. This same dealer friend of mine and one of his associates demoed a Linn Selekt DSM streamer for me paired with a digital headphone amp using rca cables instead of a coax. I was kind of baffled trying to discern its performance difference from the same amp playing from a laptop. The streamer sounds great when using appropriate connections. It sounds great but rca inputs on digital amps just digitize them, essentially negating any benefits of the better dac.


----------



## edwardsean

VladYR said:


> Thanks. I thought as much. The DC 4 seems like an interesting but wildly impractical solution in my case. It takes up quite a lot of space and I would guess make a fair amount of humming/buzzing noise that would be audible up close. I’ll stick with my Ansuz Mainz8 X TC and Nordost cables. They take far less space comparatively speaking. Have you had a chance to compare Nordost and Ansuz?


I don't know. I have a DC3 and I can't detect any humming, buzzing.


----------



## VladYR

edwardsean said:


> I don't know. I have a DC3 and I can't detect any humming, buzzing.


I looked at some pictures of it online and parts of it looked similar to Naim power supplies, which in my experience could produce audible noise. I could be wrong on this though.


----------



## Triode User

VladYR said:


> I looked at some pictures of it online and parts of it looked similar to Naim power supplies, which in my experience could produce audible noise. I could be wrong on this though.


Yes you are wrong. My DC4 powering my Dave (and one powering my Mscaler) are both absolutely quiet with no noise from it whatsoever. I also have a DC3 and likewise there is no noise from that even if I rest my ear on the case.


----------



## Glossator

Triode User said:


> Yes you are wrong. My DC4 powering my Dave (and one powering my Mscaler) are both absolutely quiet with no noise from it whatsoever. I also have a DC3 and likewise there is no noise from that even if I rest my ear on the case.


Actually, I think you are both (potentially) right and also wrong!   

My first DC3 (mid 2019) did buzz and Sean suggested various solutions - I cannot find the emails immediately but causes can depend on your circuit.   

However, my DC3 'evolved' and Sean added some sound shielding and changed the transformer - there is now no trace of hum at all (which is also true of its younger sibling built to the same design).

So, my take away is (i) hum is certainly not inevitable, and (ii) the great thing about Sean's design is that he is really constructive and approachable - so if there is an issue he will help fix it.


----------



## VladYR

Glossator said:


> Actually, I think you are both (potentially) right and also wrong!
> 
> My first DC3 (mid 2019) did buzz and Sean suggested various solutions - I cannot find the emails immediately but causes can depend on your circuit.
> 
> ...


How much difference does this power supply actually make to the performance of the Dave? The price seems rather high relative to what one is upgrading.


----------



## Glossator

VladYR said:


> How much difference does this power supply actually make to the performance of the Dave? The price seems rather high relative to what one is upgrading.


I am afraid I cannot help in relation to the DAVE - as mine currently runs off its stock supply.  I have been hesitating for just the reason you allude to.  

That said the reviews (I think a new one is due via Audiobacon) etc seem very enthusiastic and if you look at the workmanship involved they are meticulously built.   Also, the likes of Naim have for years priced the PSU separately and, rather than equating the price to the DAVE itself I think it more logically to look at the aggregate price and say 'is it worth it'/'can I afford/justify it'?   The difference my DC3s make is anything but minor and is worth every penny.   Indeed, it partly because it sounds so good as is that I hesitate about whether a DC4 for a DAVE is a step I need to take.


----------



## Triode User

VladYR said:


> How much difference does this power supply actually make to the performance of the Dave? The price seems rather high relative to what one is upgrading.



The DC4 power supply costs in the region of 50% of the cost of the Dave and in my opinion that is the sort of uplift percentage it gives over the stock Dave.



Glossator said:


> The difference my DC3s make is anything but minor and is worth every penny. Indeed, it partly because it sounds so good as is that I hesitate about whether a DC4 for a DAVE is a step I need to take.



I compared a DC3 on my Dave with a DC4. Once I heard the DC4 compared to the DC3 I had to get a DC4. It is one of the best HiFi purchases I have made. You can come and hear mine and compare it to your DC3 Dave.


----------



## EuropeanEar

I'm planning to use the DAVE in preamplification mode with the Dan D'Agostino Momentum S250 Stereo amplifier.  Does anybody have this configuration here?  I'd appreciate if you would share your experiences.


----------



## azvargulis

Triode User said:


> DC4 power supply


Sorry for my ignorance, but what is this DC4 (or DC3) power supply being referred to?


----------



## Ciggavelli

azvargulis said:


> Sorry for my ignorance, but what is this DC4 (or DC3) power supply being referred to?


https://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/power-supplies/dc4-power-supply


----------



## edwardsean

azvargulis said:


> Sorry for my ignorance, but what is this DC4 (or DC3) power supply being referred to?


https://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/dc4-psu-for-chord-dave-dac

Welcome to the Rabbit Hole.


----------



## thePhones

The differences that you can here with this power supply, is that also with headphones or just with external amps?


----------



## Glossator

Triode User said:


> The DC4 power supply costs in the region of 50% of the cost of the Dave and in my opinion that is the sort of uplift percentage it gives over the stock Dave.
> 
> 
> 
> I compared a DC3 on my Dave with a DC4. Once I heard the DC4 compared to the DC3 I had to get a DC4. It is one of the best HiFi purchases I have made. You can come and hear mine and compare it to your DC3 Dave.


Kind Nick - much appreciated (if only I could take you up on it, but not practicable in the foreseeable future I am afraid!)


----------



## Glossator

thePhones said:


> The differences that you can here with this power supply, is that also with headphones or just with external amps?


For DC3 powering HMS the difference is very apparent using just headphones.  I am sure, and have seen it said elsewhere, that the same will be true of the DAVE (but defer, of course to Nick, who can say for sure)


----------



## thePhones

Glossator said:


> For DC3 powering HMS the difference is very apparent using just headphones.  I am sure, and have seen it said elsewhere, that the same will be true of the DAVE (but defer, of course to Nick, who can say for sure)


Sorry if I have overseen it, but what exactly are the differences you are hearing? Does it sound warmer or more incisive, is the bass looser/fuller or tighter, is the the treble more detailed or softer?


----------



## muski

Triode User said:


> I am still playing around but bottom of my list for sound quality is Roon + Roon RAAT player with Dave or the Mscaler selected as the audio output in Roon. This is not even using Roon for any DSP but just using it for file selection
> 
> Better than that IMO is Roon on the K50 server and using HQP + NAA as a player with no processing done by HQP. For this I do not use any upsampling or filters on HQP (I set them all to 'none'), so I just use it as a player.  Another alternative is ditching Roon altogether and using the HQPD app on an ipad etc for file selection (again just using HQP set to none for all upsampling and filters) and using the HQP NAA player. This sounds OK but I find both HQP and the HQPD app are pretty flakey to use if one is used to Roon. I only really include these options because I tried them, not because I recommend them.
> 
> ...


Very interesting post—I think you're on to something. 

My Sonore/SGC setup allows me to run Roon, HQP & LMS on the sonicTransporter i9 optical server, and then quickly switch the opticalRendu between the Roon, HQP and Squeezelite endpoint apps. Much to my surprise there is a noticeable difference. After a few hours of critical listening, I came to agree with your ranking. To my ears there was greater clarity with the LMS (and no harshness), and the soundstage was noticeably wider.

Shocking that LMS still wins after all these years. In 2006 I made my first serious foray into digital audio with a Slimdevices Transporter feeding a Headroom Max Balanced amp. I still have that system boxed up in the garage. Makes me wonder what it would sound like fed by an opticalRendu->PhoenixUSB->M Scaler chain...

cheers,
muski


----------



## LucyWu (May 3, 2021)

muski said:


> Very interesting post—I think you're on to something.
> 
> My Sonore/SGC setup allows me to run Roon, HQP & LMS on the sonicTransporter i9 optical server, and then quickly switch the opticalRendu between the Roon, HQP and Squeezelite endpoint apps. Much to my surprise there is a noticeable difference. After a few hours of critical listening, I came to agree with your ranking. To my ears there was greater clarity with the LMS (and no harshness), and the soundstage was noticeably wider.
> 
> ...


The Squeeze ecosystem is terrific. I am always pleasantly surprised when my restless fiddling lands back on LMS/Squeezelite. Daphile exploits it nicely too, and adds a few useful tricks - the ability to load whole albums into ram appeals because it reduces the constant read burden on media storage is handy, along with a simpler interface for configuring SOX upsampling if that's required.

But, I have come to prefer Audirvana recently. SQ is very good, ram loading is possible and the integration of Qobuz is more to my liking.


----------



## Triode User

LucyWu said:


> The Squeeze ecosystem is terrific. I am always pleasantly surprised when my restless fiddling lands back on LMS/Squeezelite. Daphile exploits it nicely too, and adds a few useful tricks - the ability to load whole albums into ram appeals because it reduces the constant read burden on media storage is handy, along with a simpler interface for configuring SOX upsampling if that's required.
> 
> But, I have come to prefer Audirvana recently. SQ is very good, ram loading is possible and the integration of Qobuz is more to my liking.


I also have Innuos server/streamers as well and my Antipodes K50 and I am looking forward, hopefully with delight, to the release of their 2.0 app which seems to do a lot of what Roon does but almost certainly with better sound quality.


----------



## Christer

muski said:


> Very interesting post—I think you're on to something.
> 
> My Sonore/SGC setup allows me to run Roon, HQP & LMS on the sonicTransporter i9 optical server, and then quickly switch the opticalRendu between the Roon, HQP and Squeezelite endpoint apps. Much to my surprise there is a noticeable difference. After a few hours of critical listening, I came to agree with your ranking. To my ears there was greater clarity with the LMS (and no harshness), and the soundstage was noticeably wider.
> 
> ...


 Hmm...
What are MPD and LMS? 
The only two players  except iTunes, which sucks sq wise, I am familair with are Pure Music and Audirvana which I use on my mbp.

Are the Innous or any other Streamers compatible with those two?

I still have ZERO, ZIP, NADA interest in any of the subscription based Tidal, Roon, alternatives.
I want to pay once only and be done with it!

I may have said so before, but I have auditioned Roon on a VERY expensive  and good system with my reference material and I was not overly impressed.
Audirvana or Pure Music sounded more transparent to me.
As far as Innous Streamers are concerned I have only auditioned one of those and I can´t remember which model it was. So maybe I did not hear their best one. But again with one of my reference recordings ripped onto it, the cd layer of the SACD did not impress me much either.  
Definitely harsher and not as realisitic as the DSD 64  SACD or DSD 64 native file  via my mbp and Audirvana. The cd via that streamer sounded as a cd without mscaling,ie. not very good.
But this was a few years ago and I am a bit curious to hear why so many laud them so much now.

But ideally I would like to try optical via a Streamer since optical  can sound so good via optical out to Mscaler from my cd players.
 Most Streamers only do usb don´t they?
It also seems like a bit weird to pay roughly  half the price of an Mscaler for the Innous Phoenix to improve usb,if optical avoids the problem usb creates anyway?

Cheers CC


----------



## LucyWu

The optical out from my iBasso DX200 into MScaler sounds the equal of the USB input (within the data rate limits of the optical interface itself). But the poor user interface on the DAP, along with limited storage (I have a 256gb SD card installed) make it way less useable than using a tablet running a remote app for Audirvana or LMS.

Optical out of pc seems rare these days as a standard motherboard option. You could add in a decent PCIE soundcard (EVGA Nu Audio for example) with a optical port, but I am not convinced this offers much benefit over - say - a Mutec MC3+ USB (which will probably have a better jitter performance if that makes any difference) except cost. All the PCIE sound cards interface using USB protocols within the computer, so you aren't bypassing usb, just the run of cable to the MScaler.

If I am going optical (or SPDIF on coax) I would prefer to skip the USB mechanism entirely and get the data natively. SD Card reader transports may offer this (Auralic Aries G series may offer this, but I can't find definite information) - read the bits, code them directly into the SPDIF bitstream and pump them out to the dac. With a decent clock this should be optimal. But again, decent transport options which do this (SoundAware, Chord 2go/2yu if it gets released) are thin on the ground.


----------



## alxw0w

LucyWu said:


> All the PCIE sound cards interface using USB protocols within the computer, so you aren't bypassing usb, just the run of cable to the MScaler


You are completely wrong with that.


----------



## LucyWu

I'd be interested to know which PCIE cards skip the USB interface. Not the EVGA, not the Creative or Asus cards - all use a USB interface embedded on the card.

Maybe pro-audio but they are initially less appealing because they are burdened with a lot of (in this use case) useless functionality.


----------



## Triode User

Christer said:


> Hmm...
> What are MPD and LMS?
> The only two players  except iTunes, which sucks sq wise, I am familair with are Pure Music and Audirvana which I use on my mbp.
> 
> ...


CC, each manufacturer has their view on things. Innuos say that having measured noise in boards connect by optical or USB they concluded that there was more noise in the receiving board when it used an optical connection. That is why they only use USB on their higher end products.

Whilst I agree that optical connection is a good go to solution in many respects, I also agree with Innuos and ultimately I prefer USB to connect my streamer/server to the Mscaler or DAC rather than optical.

I also have an Antipodes streamer / server and that also does not have an optical output, nor does the current flavour of the month, the Taiko Extreme. Obviously these guys might have got it completely wrong in forgoing optical outputs but one would like to think they had thought long and hard before deciding not to offer it even as an option.

As always the paying customer must decide based on what they hear and can then take their cheque book wherever they feel happiest.


----------



## nagi8404

I’ve had the DAVE for a while now, so I’d like to share my experience with it. My DAC journey started from the SMSL SU-8, then up to the RME ADI-2 DAC, before arriving at the DAVE. I’m no writer so excuse me if this sounds like a ramble. All comparisons are done after volume matching to an error of 0.2 decibels.

Chain: Mac Mini (Roon/TIDAL) > Lumin U1 Mini > DACs > Luxman P-750uL > Utopia/HD800s

Unlike headphone amplifiers, my ears tend to not pick up differences in DACs as easily as I expected. The differences are subtle and unless I’m listening closely the differences are not obvious. Upon first listen I was not impressed with the DAVE, my reaction was “that’s it?” as I expected to be very blown away. Nevertheless, I kept listening with the DAVE and after a week or so I switched back to my lesser DACs and that’s where things became interesting.

Switching back to the SU-8 I noticed that there’s some sort of haze and grittiness to the music. Listening to classical music instruments don’t separate as clearly, violins and piano sound cold and greyish. DAVE’s rendition of timbre sounded more natural and lifelike, turning recordings from just a “recording” to a performance. Vocals don’t sound like they’re recorded out of a microphone (even though they are) and it felt as if the vocalist is singing and reaching out to me. I learned that rapid switching between DACs is sometimes not always the best way to compare. So, when I switched back to the SU-8 after an extended session with the DAVE, I can’t help it but miss the DAVE.

Compared with the RME, again the DAVE wins out when it comes to naturalness. The RME, while rocking an AKM chip to me sounded sterile as if music is seen through a light blue tinted glass, though less cold than the SU-8 with its ESS chip. I was listening to Trace Bundy’s Adapt and Rodrigo y Gabriela’s Mettavolution, each plucking and tapping of the guitar is more physical with the DAVE. While I noted no significant difference in soundstage, there is more space between instruments and layers in the music, leading to better perception of depth and separation. I’m also a firm believer that all DACs today will present to you all the details in a music, but details just pop out a smidge more with the DAVE.

One feature that I gladly welcomed in the DAVE and RME was crossfeed. I felt the two had different implementation so it’s worth mentioning. With DAVE’s crossfeed, it extends music that’s around your head and pulls it forward in front of you. To me engaging crossfeed improves depth perception, layer separation, and holographic imaging. RME’s crossfeed on the other hand takes a 2-dimensional sound and just presents it in front of you at a distance but still sounds 2-dimensional. Once you get used to DAVE’s crossfeed it’s hard to go back.

Apologies if my words are vague, DACs have really progressed to a point where differences are very hard to tell apart to the untrained ears. With the addition of the DAVE to my rack, I’m learning ways to tell my gear apart. The rabbit hole goes down deeper still, I have yet to experience the M Scaler and there are upgrade paths for DAVE's power supply???


----------



## alxw0w (May 5, 2021)

nagi8404 said:


> I’ve had the DAVE for a while now, so I’d like to share my experience with it. My DAC journey started from the SMSL SU-8, then up to the RME ADI-2 DAC, before arriving at the DAVE. I’m no writer so excuse me if this sounds like a ramble. All comparisons are done after volume matching to an error of 0.2 decibels.
> 
> Chain: Mac Mini (Roon/TIDAL) > Lumin U1 Mini > DACs > Luxman P-750uL > Utopia/HD800s
> 
> ...


You should also try to make comparison like this:
Dave -> Focal Utopia (straight connection without luxman)
RME/SMSL -> Luxman P-750uL -> Focal Utopia

With straight connection differences should be even more noticeable.


----------



## Articnoise

alxw0w said:


> You should also try to make comparison like this:
> Dave -> Focal Utopia (straight connection without luxman)
> RME/SMSL -> Luxman P-750uL -> Focal Utopia
> 
> With straight connection differences should be even more noticeable.



Maybe more noticeable but perhaps not a better sonic match.


----------



## NYanakiev

Any recommendations for a stand for DAVE and the Mscaler? Love the look of Chord's Ensemble stand but the price is a bit of a turn-off. 
Not to mention reports that the angle DAVE sits at is problematic if one is using more heavy duty cables. 

Thanks!


----------



## alxw0w

Here is my current poors man choral stand 
If somebody is interested - pm me for link


----------



## Triode User

NYanakiev said:


> Any recommendations for a stand for DAVE and the Mscaler? Love the look of Chord's Ensemble stand but the price is a bit of a turn-off.
> Not to mention reports that the angle DAVE sits at is problematic if one is using more heavy duty cables.
> 
> Thanks!


I just put my Dave on a table and with the Mscaler on the floor underneath! You will see if you venture out of the 'smoke' and come to visit in Leicestershire!.


----------



## NYanakiev

Triode User said:


> I just put my Dave on a table and with the Mscaler on the floor underneath! You will see if you venture out of the 'smoke' and come to visit in Leicestershire!.


I certainly look forward to it! Got some exotic power supplies and cables to put to the test!


----------



## voldemortnbk

alxw0w said:


> Here is my current poors man choral stand
> If somebody is interested - pm me for link


Clever for using monitor lift stand as dac stand.


----------



## tunes

Looking for a straight wire amp without sacrifice of detail provided by DAVE to drive more power hungry headphones like Abyss TC or Susvara as one of my next purchases but the current recommended amps are more than $5K. Have you heard anything about the Aries headphone amp from SparkoS Labs $2.5k?   Is it powerful enough for Susvara?  I don’t want to have to buy a speaker amp and run off taps.


----------



## Ragnar-BY (May 8, 2021)

tunes said:


> current recommended amps are more than $5K


The downside of owning great DAC - cheap amps won’t fit 😇

It’s pretty hard to find something that would be good partner for Susvara and DAVE under 5K. You’ll have more choices with speaker amps.


----------



## ra990

tunes said:


> Looking for a straight wire amp without sacrifice of detail provided by DAVE to drive more power hungry headphones like Abyss TC or Susvara as one of my next purchases but the current recommended amps are more than $5K. Have you heard anything about the Aries headphone amp from SparkoS Labs $2.5k?   Is it powerful enough for Susvara?  I don’t want to have to buy a speaker amp and run off taps.


Try the Chord Etude


----------



## tunes

It’s $5k
Will it drive the Abyss TC and Susvara with aplomb?
Are you suggesting the speaker taps?


----------



## ra990 (May 8, 2021)

tunes said:


> It’s $5k
> Will it drive the Abyss TC and Susvara with aplomb?
> Are you suggesting the speaker taps?


Correct, it's a power amp, so speaker taps are your only option. Yes, it drives both with ease, 150watts class A, A/B at 4ohms conservatively. You don't need it for the Abyss, but the Susvara does benefit from a speaker amp. Also, you can get it used for much less. I'm also recommending it because it's a perfect match for the DAVE. They'll look great together.


----------



## tunes

ra990 said:


> Correct, it's a power amp, so speaker taps are your only option. Yes, it drives both with ease, 150watts class A, A/B at 4ohms conservatively. You don't need it for the Abyss, but the Susvara does benefit from a speaker amp. Also, you can get it used for much less. I'm also recommending it because it's a perfect match for the DAVE. They'll look great together.


If it’s such a great amp why is it a available used?


----------



## tunes

tunes said:


> If it’s such a great amp why is it a available used?


----------



## ufospls2

Because people change their gear. A piece of gear being available used does not mean it is a bad design. Try looking into the options from FluxLab Acoustics for cheaper options that will drive the Susvara. The FA-10, FA-10Pro, and FA-22 might work for you. Alternatively, if you want to spend more, their upcoming flagship VOLOT may be worthy of consideration. Personally, I would recommend speaker amps for the Susvara, but not everyone is comfortable doing so.


----------



## ashok123 (May 8, 2021)

Has anyone compared chord dave against holo audio may kte or wells audio cipher? Does dave beats them in sound quality? Please share your views abt sound quality comparisons. Thanks


----------



## ra990 (May 8, 2021)

tunes said:


> If it’s such a great amp why is it a available used?




Is that a serious question?


----------



## ra990

ashok123 said:


> Has anyone compared chord dave against holo audio may kte or wells audio cipher? Does dave beats them in sound quality? Please share your views abt sound quality comparisons. Thanks


You're in luck, there's a whole thread devoted to that topic: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/an-...e-mscaler-qutest-and-holo-may-hqplayer.952934


----------



## Hooster

tunes said:


> If it’s such a great amp why is it a available used?



Maybe because it would really need to have some magic sauce to justify it's price tag. As far as I can tell the sauce is missing.


----------



## ra990

Hooster said:


> Maybe because it would really need to have some magic sauce to justify it's price tag. As far as I can tell the sauce is missing.


"magic sauce"?  It's a chord amp, it's from their premium choral range, matching the DAVE. It's an extremely clean and fast amp with loads of power. You're lucky if you get it used at a good price.


----------



## jlbrach

Hooster said:


> Maybe because it would really need to have some magic sauce to justify it's price tag. As far as I can tell the sauce is missing.


so silly, the best and worst equipment is for sale in the used sections...people sell the best equipment for a myriad of reasons..they decide they like something better, they need to raise money,they want to upgrade etc etc


----------



## Hooster

ra990 said:


> "magic sauce"?  It's a chord amp, it's from their premium choral range, matching the DAVE. It's an extremely clean and fast amp with loads of power. You're lucky if you get it used at a good price.



Thanks for sorting that out. So it is good because:

1.  " It's a chord amp"
2. "it's from their premium choral range"
3. "matching the DAVE"
4. " It's an extremely clean and fast amp with loads of power."

1, 2 and 3 don't tell me anything useful.

Regarding 4, if it does indeed have a lot of power, then why does Chord not bother to publish the power output into 8 Ohms? That figure is pretty much an industry standard that people use to compare amplifiers. Is Chord embarrassed about something? They have no problem with including that spec for their high grade power amps.  Is it clean because it has a switch mode power supply? It has fan cooling, is that considered clean?

I am not going to complain about the switch mode power supply because I can not say whether using it is detrimental in this case. I do however have 3 reasons that this product holds no appeal to me.

1. Poor value for money.
2. Fan cooling, it may work fine on some cheap pro amp but at this level, come on...
3. Looking at the spec sheet Chord does not seem to be particularly proud of this product.


----------



## ra990

Hooster said:


> Thanks for sorting that out. So it is good because:
> 
> 1.  " It's a chord amp"
> 2. "it's from their premium choral range"
> ...


Sure, now you're all about objectivity. Please tell me how objective your original post was describing this "magic sauce" you seem to love in amps.


----------



## ra990 (May 9, 2021)

jlbrach said:


> so silly, the best and worst equipment is for sale in the used sections...people sell the best equipment for a myriad of reasons..they decide they like something better, they need to raise money,they want to upgrade etc etc


Yes, I have sold items I love dearly just because I tire of the same equipment and sound after a few months. Not because they aren't quality pieces of gear.

For a new poster to ask that question is one thing, for someone as experienced as @Hooster to reinforce that ridiculous notion is disappointing.


----------



## DJJEZ

ashok123 said:


> Has anyone compared chord dave against holo audio may kte or wells audio cipher? Does dave beats them in sound quality? Please share your views abt sound quality comparisons. Thanks


im going down this same path very shortly. its very hard to find many people who have compared the DAVE against the holo may KTE so im going to buy both and compare myself lol


----------



## VladYR

The reviews for Etude are generally positive. One rarely sees those amps on Audiogon lately.


----------



## VladYR (May 10, 2021)

ra990 said:


> Is that a serious question?


The Dave is also a great dac/headphone amp and yet people part ways with it for various reasons. What really makes no sense to me is Dave owners trading it in towards a dCS Bartok. I went to a nearby dealer once to pick up an Innuos Zenith mk3 and was told that they had a Bartok on display and it was one of the things I was considering getting to consolidate my system. 30 minutes of listening was enough to convince me that this product is ridiculously overpriced for what little it offers. A Dave with a stock cable beats it with a laptop as its source. Dave & M Scaler just blows it out of the water and then some. As an added benefit, Dave and M Scaler take up far less space.


----------



## ra990

VladYR said:


> The reviews for Etude are generally positive. One rarely sees those amps on Audiogon lately.


Doesn't look like a single Etude has been listed on head-fi since 2019. As you mention, it's rare on AG as well. I got it used from my dealer who happened to have this deal when I was actually going to purchase a TToby. Don't know where this perception of people not being happy with them and being widely available on the used market is coming from. I merely suggested that the price is more palatable used to the user looking for a good amp under $5k.


----------



## mammal

ra990 said:


> Don't know where this perception of people not being happy with them and being widely available on the used market is coming from.


I think it would be very difficult to gauge how people are happy/unhappy with certain gear, just by looking at the classifieds section. I don't think it shows the whole picture. You will see people selling their Daves, or AB-1266, but many times listing other reasons than not being happy.


----------



## VladYR

ra990 said:


> Doesn't look like a single Etude has been listed on head-fi since 2019. As you mention, it's rare on AG as well. I got it used from my dealer who happened to have this deal when I was actually going to purchase a TToby. Don't know where this perception of people not being happy with them and being widely available on the used market is coming from. I merely suggested that the price is more palatable used to the user looking for a good amp under $5k.


I saw it once on Audiogon about 2 months ago for a little under $4000. It was in pristine condition and offered by a dealer. Before buying  Dave new, I kept looking it up on Audiogon and here. Reasons varied widely for the most part. Some bought it and realized that they couldn’t really afford to keep it and were selling it off at around $3000 loss. As mentioned before, some were selling it to finance a purchase of the Bartok. One dealer was selling it for a client who traded in for the before mentioned. Some didn’t really give a clear reason. I can’t really see myself parting with it given how good it sounds. At any rate, Etude isn’t really all that expensive for what it offers in such a compact footprint.

Personally, I just find it strange that someone would buy something like the Susvara but would balk at buying an amp powerful enough to drive it properly just because it’s close to the cost of the headphones. Admittedly, some headphone and amp pairings can get rather pricy and T+A comes to mind but at this level this really shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone. If you want to enjoy the best, it’s going to cost you.


----------



## Slim1970 (May 10, 2021)

VladYR said:


> I saw it once on Audiogon about 2 months ago for a little under $4000. It was in pristine condition and offered by a dealer. Before buying  Dave new, I kept looking it up on Audiogon and here. Reasons varied widely for the most part. Some bought it and realized that they couldn’t really afford to keep it and were selling it off at around $3000 loss. As mentioned before, some were selling it to finance a purchase of the Bartok. One dealer was selling it for a client who traded in for the before mentioned. Some didn’t really give a clear reason. I can’t really see myself parting with it given how good it sounds. At any rate, Etude isn’t really all that expensive for what it offers in such a compact footprint.
> 
> Personally, I just find it strange that someone would buy something like the Susvara but would balk at buying an amp powerful enough to drive it properly just because it’s close to the cost of the headphones. Admittedly, some headphone and amp pairings can get rather pricy and T+A comes to mind but at this level this really shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone. If you want to enjoy the best, it’s going to cost you.


Well said, but I still err on the side that there are some dedicated headphone amps out here that are more than capable of pushing hard to drive headphones. Power amps aren‘t a must have or a necessity to enjoy your headphones and music listening.


----------



## VladYR

Slim1970 said:


> Well said, but I still err on the side that there are some dedicated headphone amps out here that are more than capable of pushing hard to headphones. Power amps aren‘t a must have or a necessity to enjoy your headphones and music listening.


Well, I’ve seen some driving the Susvara with Lynx Hilo. A very strange pairing indeed. At the time I was not impressed with its performance and didn’t really understand what was so special about it.


----------



## Slim1970

VladYR said:


> Well, I’ve seen some driving the Susvara with Lynx Hilo. A very strange pairing indeed. At the time I was not impressed with its performance and didn’t really understand what was so special about it.


Lynx Hilo wouldn't be my first choice for driving a Susvara, haha. When I get my Dave, I'll have it coupled to my Luxman P-750u or Formula S/Powerman for those instances where I need more power. Both are outstanding with the Susvara's.


----------



## mammal

Slim1970 said:


> When I get my Dave, I'll have it coupled to my Luxman P-750u or Formula S/Powerman for those instances where I need more power. Both are outstanding with the Susvara's.


So you have decided to go for a Dave ?


----------



## Slim1970

mammal said:


> So you have decided to go for a Dave ?


I did, I’m using the TT2 more as a DAC than headphone amp. Since I don’t need the extra power of the TT2 I figured I might as well get the best DAC Chord has to offer. It’s going to take a minute to get here. So I’ll still be enjoying the TT2 until then.


----------



## DJJEZ (May 10, 2021)

Slim1970 said:


> I did, I’m using the TT2 more as a DAC than headphone amp. Since I don’t need the extra power of the TT2 I figured I might as well get the best DAC Chord has to offer. It’s going to take a minute to get here. So I’ll still be enjoying the TT2 until then.


Im going for the same. 1266TC - formula S/powerman - DAVE  

Would love to hear the luxman P750U as well at some point


----------



## MatW

DJJEZ said:


> Im going for the same. 1266TC - formula S/powerman - DAVE


Winning team!


----------



## jlbrach

arguments can be made about the best amp for the 1266 tc but certainly it is hard to do much better than the formula s/powerman


----------



## TheAttorney (May 11, 2021)

jlbrach said:


> arguments can be made about the best amp for the 1266 tc but certainly it is hard to do much better than the formula s/powerman


So, if you could only keep one of your amps to drive a range of headphones (excluding the untypical RAAL), which would it be and why?
Formula S+Powerman or Bakoon?


----------



## nagi8404

Found an album that really shows what the DAVE is capable of. Each percussive hit sounds crisper than any of my other DACs.


----------



## jlbrach

TheAttorney said:


> So, if you could only keep one of your amps to drive a range of headphones (excluding the untypical RAAL), which would it be and why?
> Formula S+Powerman or Bakoon?


I love both but if I had to choose I would keep the Bakoon in part because of its form factor and small footprint and remote control....the bakoon is more powerful and I would say better with the susvara...for the formula s/powerman it is probably a wash


----------



## mammal

jlbrach said:


> I love both but if I had to choose I would keep the Bakoon in part because of its form factor and small footprint and remote control....the bakoon is more powerful and I would say better with the susvara...for the formula s/powerman it is probably a wash


Can you actually drive Susvara and AB-1266 from Bakoon's front single ended output, or do you need speaker tap adapter to fully realise its power? Thanks!


----------



## stemiki

What a great machine is DAVE! It's been a few weeks since I got it.

Delicate and precise, with a disarming transparency.

The breathtaking level of detail without a hint of harshness on the higher frequencies and nuances never heard before, appear as if out of nowhere, bringing a sense of realism and a unique involvement with the music.

It maintains the ability to grasp every single instrument in an orchestra during the crescendo passages, without dissolving into a single set of sounds.

With piano, chimes and reverb tails, that's where you hear the differences and quality of DAVE the most.

I had never heard it reproduced with this precision before. The right amount of harmonic distortions avoids unnatural sound.

The guitar pinches, the drums, the trumpet attacks are amazing.

Tone and vocal timbre natural. Voices are warm and engaging with incredible resolution.

The lower frequencies are well controlled and never excessive.

An additional feature that I have found important is the Crossfeed.

Create a realistic Headstage and a more focused image, removing the excessively lateralized and unnatural perception of listening with headphones.

Being very sensitive it requires attention in tuning. This phase is very important to obtain a satisfactory result.

It must be placed away from routers, cell phones and electronics that have toroidal transformers.

In my setup it is connected via optical connection, to avoid the introduction of EMI / RFI interference, to the Lumin U1 mini, which guarantees a perfectly stable connection even with 24/192 files.

Then to HPA4 via Silver OCC RCA to XLR signal cable, as DAVE comes out cleaner than RCA.

The Abyss connected directly to DAVE fails to reach maximum performance, being satisfactory only at rather low volumes.

With about one Watt delivered to the headphone load, low frequency control is not optimal. Connected to HPA4, on the other hand, it hits hard and with precision even at very high volumes.

The SC cable optimizing the mid-range, leads to continuity for the entire extension of the audio spectrum.

Listening exclusively in streaming from Qobuz I find most of the files well played.

Now the difference with high resolution files is more evident, in the sense of a greater amount of micro information. The difference between a well recorded 16/44 file and a high resolution one is considerable.


----------



## jlbrach

mammal said:


> Can you actually drive Susvara and AB-1266 from Bakoon's front single ended output, or do you need speaker tap adapter to fully realise its power? Thanks!


the bakoon has hi and low gain options out of the single ended output...the high gain setting gives you the same power out as if you used the speaker tap...the bakoon drives the susvara as well as anything I have yet heard and the abyss is a piece of cake


----------



## Slim1970

Does the DAVE need any burn-in or does it sound good right out the box?


----------



## Triode User

Slim1970 said:


> Does the DAVE need any burn-in or does it sound good right out the box?



for me the Dave is 100% good straight out of the box. I suspect any claimed burn in is just the brain acclimatising.


----------



## Slim1970

Triode User said:


> for me the Dave is 100% good straight out of the box. I suspect any claimed burn in is just the brain acclimatising.


Thanks, I’m anxiously awaiting mine. I was curious if anyone could hear a difference in performance as the Dave gets some time on it.


----------



## edwardsean

Well, after decades of headphone exclusivity, I'm finally dipping my toe into the world of speakers. 

My first stop of course was Omegas, and I got 3is (RS5 drivers) just to experiment. They sound–ridiculously–good for the price, but are missing low end. I'd like to take another step up both in overall SQ and a fuller range (not a leap to Voxativs, by the by). 

I'd rather keep it simple and not add a subwoofer.  I'm thinking of moving to the Compact Alnico Monitors. 

This seems logical, but I've also read that the highs on the CAM are not as good as the 3is and that the 3is are more articulate. Is this accurate or more perception based on the fuller representation of the CAMs?

Also, if anyone could give me a price range for used CAMs I'd appreciate it. Thanks!


----------



## VladYR

Slim1970 said:


> Does the DAVE need any burn-in or does it sound good right out the box?


I was told about 200 hours. It sounded quite good right out of the box but I thought somewhat different compared to the demo unit that I used for a few hours. I burned it in fully in a little more than a week though. I connected to an iPad running a Qobuz app, put an album on a loop and just turned down the volume down to -75 dB when I was sleeping or out and about. It gets warm but not hot. It sure beats burning it in naturally over the course of several months.


----------



## Slim1970

VladYR said:


> I was told about 200 hours. It sounded quite good right out of the box but I thought somewhat different compared to the demo unit that I used for a few hours. I burned it in fully in a little more than a week though. I connected to an iPad running a Qobuz app, put an album on a loop and just turned down the volume down to -75 dB when I was sleeping or out and about. It gets warm but not hot. It sure beats burning it in naturally over the course of several months.


Nice, I’ll probably do something similar. I could let play while I’m at work. I just can’t wait to get it.


----------



## VladYR

Slim1970 said:


> Nice, I’ll probably do something similar. I could let play while I’m at work. I just can’t wait to get it.


I’m waiting for an M Scaler. Hopefully the 3 weeks wait time is accurate. The Dave was estimated at 8 to 10 weeks but came in at 4. I’d rather start the burning in process sooner rather than later. New England summers are rather hot. I did something similar for my Meze Empyrean using a Sony headphone amp. That thing got rather hot after 8 hours of playing. Burning in this way works great during fall, winter and spring months but definitely not summer, unless you live in Iceland where it can be 60 degree through the summer 😁😁😁


----------



## NYanakiev (May 15, 2021)

My setup is nearly complete:

-Chord DAVE (arriving in the next 2 weeks)+Mscaler
-WAVE STRATOS BNC cables 
-Fed by a Sonore opticalRendu 
-Focal Utopia&Obravo Ra 21 C-Cu

Aliexpress monitor stand (don't laugh!)
I looked into the Chord Ensemble stand but couldn't justify buying one.

Now where is that Dave


----------



## Progisus

NYanakiev said:


> My setup is nearly complete:
> 
> Chord DAVE (arriving in the next 2 weeks)
> Mscaler
> ...


Try some PGGB files (Remastero) and your Dave will move to the Nirvana level. Think >250m taps. Actually any 705/768 32b dac.


----------



## muski

Progisus said:


> Try some PGGB files (Remastero) and your Dave will move to the Nirvana level. Think >250m taps. Actually any 705/768 32b dac.


Really interesting. Can't wait to try this. Do any particular Remastero-ed albums stand out?


----------



## number1sixerfan

Triode User said:


> for me the Dave is 100% good straight out of the box. I suspect any claimed burn in is just the brain acclimatising.



+1.


----------



## F208Frank

I am a happy Chord Dave owner and am hearing that others have their power supplied fried despite their unit being only months old. Anyone else go through this? Was the warranty process smooth? Thank god mine is fine, but just curious.


----------



## jcn3 (May 19, 2021)

F208Frank said:


> I am a happy Chord Dave owner and am hearing that others have their power supplied fried despite their unit being only months old. Anyone else go through this? Was the warranty process smooth? Thank god mine is fine, but just curious.



where did you hear this?  i've heard of people messing around with different power supplies on the qutest or tt2 and a very few that replaced the power supply in the dave, but nothing about issues with stock units.

my dave is almost a year old, is left on 24/7, and is doing wonderfully.


----------



## iDesign (May 19, 2021)

jcn3 said:


> where did you hear this?  i've heard of people messing around with different power supplies on the qutest or tt2 and a very few that replaced the power supply in the dave, but nothing about issues with stock units.
> 
> my dave is almost a year old, is left on 24/7, and is doing wonderfully.


Correct, he is more likely referring the small handful of DAVE owners who replaced their power supply in an audiophile's quest for increased fidelity.


----------



## edwardsean

iDesign said:


> Correct, he is more likely referring the small handful of DAVE owners who replaced their power supply in an audiophile's quest for increased fidelity.


I don't think so. The OP refers to DAVE owners, some who have only had their unit for months, and goes on to enquire after in-warranty repairs. 

Replacing the DAVE PS is something usually done by more experienced Dave owners with full knowledge that you are voiding the warranty. It is something that is not entirely without risk, but the swap is straightforward and safe. 

The OP seems to have heard about DAVE owners who have had their stock unit fail and some pretty quickly. I don't think this is reliable information.


----------



## Triode User

F208Frank said:


> I am a happy Chord Dave owner and am hearing that others have their power supplied fried despite their unit being only months old. Anyone else go through this? Was the warranty process smooth? Thank god mine is fine, but just curious.


That’s a completely new one on me. I have never heard of a Dave power supply failing. Where did you hear about that? So far there are over 1100 pages on this thread and as far as I recall yours is the first post to mention this.


----------



## griff500

edwardsean said:


> The OP seems to have heard about DAVE owners who have had their stock unit fail and some pretty quickly. I don't think this is reliable information.


I agree. I don't recall reading about anyone having had issues with the DAVE. I have heard of some people having issues with the TT2 - perhaps he is confusing that issue with the DAVE?


----------



## STR-1

Triode User said:


> That’s a completely new one on me. I have never heard of a Dave power supply failing. Where did you hear about that? So far there are over 1100 pages on this thread and as far as I recall yours is the first post to mention this.


Chord replaced my DAVE’s power supply three years into the warranty.  

The problem was inconsistent power engagement regardless of the power cable used.  There would sometimes be fizzing from the DAVE’s power inlet socket, requiring several attempts to reinsert the power cable before power was properly engaged.  Chord advised that the mains filter was the problem, which they replaced.  They also replaced the power supply as “a precaution”.  The engagement with Chord over the repair went very smoothly.


----------



## STR-1

Deleted


----------



## atya35mm

Hi all, I have the opportunity to purchase a used Dave out of warranty. I understand risk of unit failing and repairs are all part of buying used. However would anyone have any experience what the repair cost would be like if such situation occurs? There are lower price dacs /electronics where if it fails it’s easier to replace then repair, however I’m hoping thats not the case with product of this caliber such as Dave. Would be keen to hear experience from others on this. Feel free to pm if it’s more suitable.


----------



## jlbrach

I suppose it would depend what the failure was but I am pretty confident the repair would amount to a fraction of the cost


----------



## mammal

atya35mm said:


> Hi all, I have the opportunity to purchase a used Dave out of warranty. I understand risk of unit failing and repairs are all part of buying used.





jlbrach said:


> I suppose it would depend what the failure was but I am pretty confident the repair would amount to a fraction of the cost


Reminds me of buying used cars - I know I was afraid of after warranty repairs. The question is how much are you saving on buying used Dave and if that budget would be enough to deal with a repair. Things usually break in the first couple of weeks of use (unless cases of planned obsolescence), so if the Dave has been working for the last 5 years without issues, you should be fine.


----------



## jlbrach

I dont want to jinx myself but other than a few easily dealt with quirks I have had no issue with my dave in the few yrs I have owned it


----------



## Ciggavelli

I had problems with a new DAVE (at the time I bought it). It wouldn’t work with the M-Scaler without clicking and static. It was a relatively common problem I came to learn. Thing is, you wouldn’t know anything was wrong with the DAVE unless you added the m-scaler. I had to get the DAVE fixed and get the new firmware or whatever.  

So, I’d ask whoever owns the DAVE if they had tried the M-Scaler with it


----------



## jlbrach

I have the blu2 and had a few cable issues but nothing since


----------



## atya35mm

Ciggavelli said:


> I had problems with a new DAVE (at the time I bought it). It wouldn’t work with the M-Scaler without clicking and static. It was a relatively common problem I came to learn. Thing is, you wouldn’t know anything was wrong with the DAVE unless you added the m-scaler. I had to get the DAVE fixed and get the new firmware or whatever.
> 
> So, I’d ask whoever owns the DAVE if they had tried the M-Scaler with it


Ooo good to know thanks! I suppose thinking about it the Dave has only been released for 5 to 6 years. So most people probably would not encountered after warranty issues as most units are still on warranty.


----------



## Sampajanna

Has anyone tried using BNC input into HMS instead of USB?


----------



## Triode User

Sampajanna said:


> Has anyone tried using BNC input into HMS instead of USB?


Yes, I and a friend both have antipodes K50 streamers and we think that the bnc output from the K50 beats usb into the MScaler. We have been using Squeeze on the K50.


----------



## lcasadonte

Ciggavelli said:


> I had problems with a new DAVE (at the time I bought it). It wouldn’t work with the M-Scaler without clicking and static. It was a relatively common problem I came to learn. Thing is, you wouldn’t know anything was wrong with the DAVE unless you added the m-scaler. I had to get the DAVE fixed and get the new firmware or whatever.
> 
> So, I’d ask whoever owns the DAVE if they had tried the M-Scaler with it


I had the same problem.  Good advice.


----------



## beemarman

Been offered a DAVE for a good price.  It's was one of the original DAVE and it's about 5 years old. I'm wondering whether it's the same as the current DAVE, or would I need to send it  Chord to do some type of firmware upgrade on it? 

Also, I have the Mscaler and was wondering if it would work with it, or would I need to upgrade to a newer firmware before using it with the DAVE?


----------



## VladYR

How good is that price? Depending on the difference, it may or may not be worth it in the long run. After all, a warranty is definitely worth something. You might want to send an email to Chord regarding the firmware questions.


----------



## beemarman

VladYR said:


> How good is that price? Depending on the difference, it may or may not be worth it in the long run. After all, a warranty is definitely worth something. You might want to send an email to Chord regarding the firmware questions.


Yeah, I was thinking the same as well. It's less than half price when new.


----------



## VladYR

beemarman said:


> Yeah, I was thinking the same as well. It's less than half price when new.


That’s a very good price indeed. I would definitely consider getting it. Chord’s manufacturing standards are high so I wouldn’t really worry about potential repairs down the road in contrast to some other European brands.


----------



## x RELIC x

As far as I know there are no new versions of the FPGA and code from the first to latest DAVE sold. Yes, the Mscaler will work with all DAVEs.


----------



## jlbrach

there is little to go wrong with a DAC and if it has functioned well up until now I see no reason to think it wont going forward


----------



## ZappaMan

Maybe the only counter point might be, it’s said, that you could get a new Dave for 3/4 full retail price if you have the right relationships with dealers. You could also trade some older unused item or sell separately to raise the 3/4 amount.... then you’d have an asset with a full warranty that you could sell on down the line.


----------



## Sampajanna

Triode User said:


> Yes, I and a friend both have antipodes K50 streamers and we think that the bnc output from the K50 beats usb into the MScaler. We have been using Squeeze on the K50.


What do you think about something like this and a wavestorm cable? https://www.m2techusa.com/products/hiface2-hi-end-usb-to-s-pdif-bnc-output


----------



## LucyWu (May 25, 2021)

Sampajanna said:


> What do you think about something like this and a wavestorm cable? https://www.m2techusa.com/products/hiface2-hi-end-usb-to-s-pdif-bnc-output


In my view there is unlikely to be a real jump with any of the USB-to-SPDIF converters - you are just trading one USB interface for another, your data is still going through the whole async routine. I don't have experience with dedicated network streaming products but I would hope that the best ones format the SPDIF transmission directly from a buffer which would cut the USB process out of the path. If you want to try this, I'd be looking at something with a good clock (Denafrips or MUTEC MC3+ USB spring to mind but there are others). I have an M2Tech USB/SPDIF converter but it's not likely to improve on a good USB interface on something like Dave.

The real benefit is likelly to be USB (or LAN) to SPDIF converter that galvanically isolates (and reclocks) the output.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...I think this may be related to some users trying to "bypass" the Amanero chipset characteristics by using a USB/SPDIF converter, either to the MScaler or Dave directly. I am making these experiments myself. TBD.


----------



## burbster

Sampajanna said:


> Has anyone tried using BNC input into HMS instead of USB?


See one of my previous posts, I am currently switching between optical and BNC inputs, rather against perceived wisdom I seem to prefer optical at the moment.


----------



## Sampajanna

MarkusBarkus said:


> ...I think this may be related to some users trying to "bypass" the Amanero chipset characteristics by using a USB/SPDIF converter, either to the MScaler or Dave directly. I am making these experiments myself. TBD.


Yes, this is what I am interested in.


----------



## burbster

Sampajanna said:


> Yes, this is what I am interested in.





MarkusBarkus said:


> ...I think this may be related to some users trying to "bypass" the Amanero chipset characteristics by using a USB/SPDIF converter, either to the MScaler or Dave directly. I am making these experiments myself. TBD.


Me too!


----------



## alxw0w

Damn, like 5 days ago after reading some of the posts regarding Roon vs LMS sq, I've started to do my own listening tests using Roon + Ropieee endpioint vs LMS + Picoreplayer endpoint - both with hifiberry toslink out to m scaler.
I wasn't expecting much of a difference, but I must say that LMS to my ears sounds better.
It's clearer, separation is better its most visible during complex music passages - maybe sometimes music some instruments can be a bit edgy. 
Roon might be a tad smoother but not in a good way - everything seems to be a bit more squashed muddy.

Damn it's hard, LMS to my ears sounds better and keeping in mind that I have to pay subscription for Roon and how much money I'm putting there every year... it's hard to justify keeping Roon.
LMS features cannot match Roon not even close. I love music discovery through Roon and just library management is much clearer nicer with Roon but the sound... it's different story.


----------



## mammal

alxw0w said:


> LMS features cannot match Roon not even close. I love music discovery through Roon and just library management is much clearer nicer with Roon but the sound... it's different story.


Interesting! Thank you for your impressions. As far as Roon's licensing goes, you can always splurge for lifetime account and just pay once, if you think you will keep using it in the future.


----------



## alxw0w (May 27, 2021)

mammal said:


> Interesting! Thank you for your impressions. As far as Roon's licensing goes, you can always splurge for lifetime account and just pay once, if you think you will keep using it in the future.


I was considering lifetime subscription.
But I don't want to bound to one software for the rest of my life. Especially now when I know that there are better options - at least soundwise.
Roon lifetime subscription costs like 600$ ? or now it's even more (note sure).
I would personally keep that money and invest in product like Innuos or Antipodes.


----------



## mammal

alxw0w said:


> I would personally keep that money and invest in product like Innuos or Antipodes.


Makes sense, I was just mentioning the lifetime subscription, in case you were not aware of one  because paying yearly, if you happen to be happy with the product, could be avoided by that lifetime subscription.


----------



## mammal

As far as Roon's SQ goes, just to add my experience - my left ear has a hearing loss at around 3dB, but it is not flat, low frequencies are like -2 and high frequencies are maybe -4. I used to use Roon to account for this, but when I employed a complex parametric EQ to try to equalize the difference, the sound quality was drastically worse, but I expected that. So I went rather with a simple "right channel -3 dB" so that I avoid clipping, this makes the center image perfect for mids, but slightly off for lows/highs. Now the interesting part, when I do exact the same (channel volume balance) on Bartók (and not in Roon), I do not have this imbalance of low/mid/high frequencies anymore. I expected that both would be just doing -3dB on the right channel, so there shouldn't be a difference, but it audibly is. Anyone else tried a test like this before?


----------



## HeeBroG

mammal said:


> As far as Roon's SQ goes, just to add my experience - my left ear has a hearing loss at around 3dB, but it is not flat, low frequencies are like -2 and high frequencies are maybe -4. I used to use Roon to account for this, but when I employed a complex parametric EQ to try to equalize the difference, the sound quality was drastically worse, but I expected that. So I went rather with a simple "right channel -3 dB" so that I avoid clipping, this makes the center image perfect for mids, but slightly off for lows/highs. Now the interesting part, when I do exact the same (channel volume balance) on Bartók (and not in Roon), I do not have this imbalance of low/mid/high frequencies anymore. I expected that both would be just doing -3dB on the right channel, so there shouldn't be a difference, but it audibly is. Anyone else tried a test like this before?


Just curious....
If you hear like that in real life why do you need to compensate for it when listening to music?


----------



## mammal

HeeBroG said:


> Just curious....
> If you hear like that in real life why do you need to compensate for it when listening to music?


That's very good question. In real life my brain compensates for the sounds around me. When someone talks to me, the sound is coming from them, and it does not appear to be skewed in any way. If you speak from left, I will hear it accurately from left. If you are around the corner, I will hear it from there.

I guess what I am trying to say is that with real life sounds, I have no issues with ear imbalance, and my brain uses all available reverb/delay/queues to figure out where the sound is coming from. Funnily enough the same with well set up speakers, I do not hear the sound coming more from one speaker than from the other.

The issue becomes when I put on headphones (of any quality) I start noticing the centre image is towards the right (which hears better). I noticed this years ago and went to a doctor to check that out. They asked me about my history and when I checked in with my parents, they told me that I have had issues with my left ears since I was a kid. They never noticed a hearing loss either, just getting a lot of infections, stuff like that. Unsure if that's what caused the hearing loss. Then, the doctor did a test and confirmed that there is a hearing loss. I can even do a mobile test on my phone and the result will show that.


----------



## alxw0w

In real life sounds come to both of the ears. On headphones left ear listen to left transducer and right to right. That's why you have to compensate.
On 2.0 speaker system you should be fine.


----------



## burbster

alxw0w said:


> Damn, like 5 days ago after reading some of the posts regarding Roon vs LMS sq, I've started to do my own listening tests using Roon + Ropieee endpioint vs LMS + Picoreplayer endpoint - both with hifiberry toslink out to m scaler.
> I wasn't expecting much of a difference, but I must say that LMS to my ears sounds better.
> It's clearer, separation is better its most visible during complex music passages - maybe sometimes music some instruments can be a bit edgy.
> Roon might be a tad smoother but not in a good way - everything seems to be a bit more squashed muddy.
> ...


Yes, I did almost exactly the same, started using LMS a week or so ago and comparing to Roon. Also trying MPD. I was so disappointed that I could actually hear a clear difference, with Roon being the least best. I love using Roon, it is far far and away the slickest eco system in my experience for browsing and managing your music, even more so if you have multiple players. But alas, SQ comes first, Roon subscription ended yesterday, and for the time being at least, I have not renewed.


----------



## Progisus

burbster said:


> Yes, I did almost exactly the same, started using LMS a week or so ago and comparing to Roon. Also trying MPD. I was so disappointed that I could actually hear a clear difference, with Roon being the least best. I love using Roon, it is far far and away the slickest eco system in my experience for browsing and managing your music, even more so if you have multiple players. But alas, SQ comes first, Roon subscription ended yesterday, and for the time being at least, I have not renewed.


And the winner is..... LMS or MPD?


----------



## alxw0w

burbster said:


> Yes, I did almost exactly the same, started using LMS a week or so ago and comparing to Roon. Also trying MPD. I was so disappointed that I could actually hear a clear difference, with Roon being the least best. I love using Roon, it is far far and away the slickest eco system in my experience for browsing and managing your music, even more so if you have multiple players. But alas, SQ comes first, Roon subscription ended yesterday, and for the time being at least, I have not renewed.


Exactly I also cancelled my Roon subscription. But how would you describe SQ change ? Similar to my thoughts ?


----------



## burbster

Progisus said:


> And the winner is..... LMS or MPD?


Only got MPD working last night, (took ages to recognize DNLA sever on CX and pick up my library, player got picked up instantly though) and as it was last day of Roon subscription I was only switching between them two, to ensure that MPD was superior to Roon. Will get some nice drinks in tonight and settle down for a prolonged head to head listening session!


----------



## burbster

alxw0w said:


> Exactly I also cancelled my Roon subscription. But how would you describe SQ change ? Similar to my thoughts ?


Very similar, but I didn't notice the increased edginess, plus I am convinced both MPD and LMS have somehow lowered the noise floor ever so slightly. But yes agree with you  totally about better separation, and maybe even a little better depth perception.


----------



## alxw0w (May 27, 2021)

burbster said:


> Very similar, but I didn't notice the increased edginess, plus I am convinced both MPD and LMS have somehow lowered the noise floor ever so slightly. But yes agree with you  totally about better separation, and maybe even a little better depth perception.


Yes depth also improved as well as overall soundstage size and positioning.
So it must be something in it.
Your words assure me that I'm not deluded or smth.


----------



## Simon-in-Suffolk (May 30, 2021)

alxw0w said:


> It's clearer, separation is better its most visible during complex music passages - maybe sometimes music some instruments can be a bit edgy.


I agree .. I have found the over sample level set to ‘medium’ on the mscalar provides the best overall blend of performance across all recording styles and genres with the Dave and allows that beautiful subtle natural analogue type warmth of the Dave to be present, that otherwise fades when over sample is set to  high. .. Additionally this means only one of the SPDIF interconnect leads need to be used.


----------



## iamoneagain

alxw0w said:


> Damn, like 5 days ago after reading some of the posts regarding Roon vs LMS sq, I've started to do my own listening tests using Roon + Ropieee endpioint vs LMS + Picoreplayer endpoint - both with hifiberry toslink out to m scaler.
> I wasn't expecting much of a difference, but I must say that LMS to my ears sounds better.
> It's clearer, separation is better its most visible during complex music passages - maybe sometimes music some instruments can be a bit edgy.
> Roon might be a tad smoother but not in a good way - everything seems to be a bit more squashed muddy.
> ...


If you’re using Ropiee, have you tried enabling Sqeezelite and then in roon in Setup switching on Squeezebox support?  This will give you a Squeezebox endpoint that you can switch to and it sounds different from roon’s. Also in device setup, switch off flac compression for best sound. I think it has a richer sound than the roon endpoint. It’s free to try and then you can still keep roon software  while having a better end point.


----------



## Ciggavelli

This is probably a dumb question, but I’ll ask nonetheless. If I use a separate headphone amp, would changing the DAVE psu to the Sean Jacobs DC4 have the same improvement as driving headphones directly from the DAVE? 

I want to say that it should, but all the reviews I’ve read about the DC4 have the reviewers driving speakers or headphones directly from their DAVE. What happens when an external headphone amp is used?


----------



## alxw0w

iamoneagain said:


> If you’re using Ropiee, have you tried enabling Sqeezelite and then in roon in Setup switching on Squeezebox support?  This will give you a Squeezebox endpoint that you can switch to and it sounds different from roon’s. Also in device setup, switch off flac compression for best sound. I think it has a richer sound than the roon endpoint. It’s free to try and then you can still keep roon software  while having a better end point.


Thanks for suggestion, I wasn't aware of that. I'll try to check it in the near time.


----------



## Slim1970

I'm finally a member of the DAVE club. Right out of the box the sound is an upgrade to the sound of my old TT2. Now I get it! What a musical listening experience this is.


----------



## audio_1

Slim1970 said:


> I'm finally a member of the DAVE club. Right out of the box the sound is an upgrade to the sound of my old TT2. Now I get it! What a musical listening experience this is.


Have you tried separating your components. One of the advantages of the Opto-DX is that it is possible to physically distance the Dave and Mscaler, reducing RFI affecting the Dave. The other big advantage is reduced heat output. There is no circulation around your Mscaler being sandwiched between the Dave and amplifier. The Dave is sittings on a 35° C heat source. Imho separating your components would significantly extend their life. It is also worth while mounting the Dave and Mscaler on at least 30 mm high footers to improve circulation. I use Ceraballs.


----------



## Slim1970

audio_1 said:


> Have you tried separating your components. One of the advantages of the Opto-DX is that it is possible to physically distance the Dave and Mscaler, reducing RFI affecting the Dave. The other big advantage is reduced heat output. There is no circulation around your Mscaler being sandwiched between the Dave and amplifier. The Dave is sittings on a 35° C heat source. Imho separating your components would significantly extend their life. It is also worth while mounting the Dave and Mscaler on at least 30 mm high footers to improve circulation. I use Ceraballs.


I have a Choral stand coming. It’ll add that distance in between the Dave and HMS you’re talking about. I was hoping the stand and Dave would arrive at the same time, but it didn’t happen that way. I know this is not the ideal setup but it’s only temporary. I’m just trying to get to know the sound of my Dave until the stand comes


----------



## Slim1970

Here are my initial thoughts on the DAVE. My system has reached a new and unique level. Resolution, imaging, musicality, timing, pacing, rhythm and power has all evolved. The levels of P.R.A.T. the DAVE infuses in my setup are the biggest changes I’m hearing. I just want to tap my feet, close my eyes, and bob my head to the music. This is the sound and the listening experience I’ve been seeking. 

Yes, the DAVE deserves all the accolades because it’s that good. This is the best listening experience I‘ve had in my home. I didn’t even mention the realism the DAVE is offering up. The DAVE places you in the studio with the band or in the first row of a concert. Listening to the DAVE/HMS is like being there. I can hear the plucking and the finger slides on the strings as the artist is changing notes on the guitar. I can hear the artist taking breathes in the microphone, I can hear the reverb from the venue their in, the clap of the tom tom drums being hit all in real time it seems.

The DAVE has impeccable imaging and instrument separation. The DAVE coupled with the HMS has so much texture, resolve, depth and width to music. I’ve just never heard anything like it. The sense of realism is just uncanny with the DAVE.


----------



## griff500

Slim1970 said:


> Here are my initial thoughts on the DAVE. My system has reached a new and unique level. Resolution, imaging, musicality, timing, pacing, rhythm and power has all evolved. The levels of P.R.A.T. the DAVE infuses in my setup are the biggest changes I’m hearing. I just want to tap my feet, close my eyes, and bob my head to the music. This is the sound and the listening experience I’ve been seeking.
> 
> Yes, the DAVE deserves all the accolades because it’s that good. This is the best listening experience I‘ve had in my home. I didn’t even mention the realism the DAVE is offering up. The DAVE places you in the studio with the band or in the first row of a concert. Listening to the DAVE/HMS is like being there. I can hear the plucking and the finger slides on the strings as the artist is changing notes on the guitar. I can hear the artist taking breathes in the microphone, I can hear the reverb from the venue their in, the clap of the tom tom drums being hit all in real time it seems.
> 
> The DAVE has impeccable imaging and instrument separation. The DAVE coupled with the HMS has so much texture, resolve, depth and width to music. I’ve just never heard anything like it. The sense of realism is just uncanny with the DAVE.


So you like it then...


----------



## Slim1970

griff500 said:


> So you like it then...


Unequivocally yes!


----------



## Triode User

Slim1970 said:


> I have a Choral stand coming. It’ll add that distance in between the Dave and HMS you’re talking about. I was hoping the stand and Dave would arrive at the same time, but it didn’t happen that way. I know this is not the ideal setup but it’s only temporary. I’m just trying to get to know the sound of my Dave until the stand comes


I have my HMS 3ft away from the Dave. Distance is your friend here.


----------



## Slim1970

Triode User said:


> I have my HMS 3ft away from the Dave. Distance is your friend here.


Wow, I think I need to rethink my setup. We'll see how it goes when I get the Choral stand. I'll play around with the placement of the HMS in relation to the DAVE then.


----------



## ZappaMan

Slim1970 said:


> Wow, I think I need to rethink my setup. We'll see how it goes when I get the Choral stand. I'll play around with the placement of the HMS in relation to the DAVE then.


I see from your photo that you have the opto boxes, so you’ll be able to experiment with distance at least (not restricted by existing  Bnc cable length).


----------



## Slim1970

ZappaMan said:


> I see from your photo that you have the opto boxes, so you’ll be able to experiment with distance at least (not restricted by existing  Bnc cable length).


Yes, I need to get the longer optical cables for the Opto-DX to allow me some placement flexibility. The ones that came with the Opto-DX are short. It's another reason I have things close together.


----------



## audio_1 (Jun 6, 2021)

Slim1970 said:


> Wow, I think I need to rethink my setup. We'll see how it goes when I get the Choral stand. I'll play around with the placement of the HMS in relation to the DAVE then.


I use 3 metre optical cables with the Opto-Dx. Overall my Blu 2, Opto-Dx T and other digital components at the side of my listening room are about 4 metres away from the Opto-Dx R, Dave and the power amps at the front. I also have separate digital and analogue power cables from the consumer unit to the front and side of the listening room respectively. These are spaced as far apart as possible in the attic.


----------



## Slim1970

Someone could have warned me that the Dave's SE output is this good. This pairing is outstanding.


----------



## PortableAudioLover

Slim1970 said:


> Someone could have warned me that the Dave's SE output is this good. This pairing is outstanding.


I second this. Recently tried lcd24 straight out of Dave and it was also amazing. I believe all lcd headphones are tuned with chord dacs


----------



## Slim1970

PortableAudioLover said:


> I second this. Recently tried lcd24 straight out of Dave and it was also amazing. I believe all lcd headphones are tuned with chord dacs


It sure sounds like it. The LCD-4z’s sound so detailed, full bodied and balanced. The bass is deep, punchy and music sounds so dynamic, tight and fast.


----------



## iDesign

Slim1970 said:


> Someone could have warned me that the Dave's SE output is this good. This pairing is outstanding.


And with the Focal Utopia, the DAVE delivers a TKO.


----------



## Slim1970

iDesign said:


> And with the Focal Utopia, the DAVE delivers a TKO.


The Utopia/Dave is another outstanding pairing


----------



## Mikey99

With the right headphone pairing the direct output from the DAVE can outdo the best headphone amplifiers. E.g., it is perfect with my Spirit Torino Valkyria, better sounding than through my Riviera AIC-10. It is also very good with my ZMF VC, although that does sound a bit better on the Riviera. A demanding headphone like the Abyss AB1266 clearly sounds better with the Riviera.


----------



## Slim1970

Mikey99 said:


> With the right headphone pairing the direct output from the DAVE can outdo the best headphone amplifiers. E.g., it is perfect with my Spirit Torino Valkyria, better sounding than through my Riviera AIC-10. It is also very good with my ZMF VC, although that does sound a bit better on the Riviera. A demanding headphone like the Abyss AB1266 clearly sounds better with the Riviera.


This is what I'm quickly discovering about the Dave's headphone output. The SE output on the Dave is better than both SE outputs on my Formula S and Luxman. Although it's not as powerful. I listening directly out of the Dave whenever possible depending on which headphone I'm listening to.


----------



## stemiki

Slim1970 said:


> This is what I'm quickly discovering about the Dave's headphone output. The SE output on the Dave is better than both SE outputs on my Formula S and Luxman. Although it's not as powerful. I listening directly out of the Dave whenever possible depending on which headphone I'm listening to.


An amplifier that keeps the tone of DAVE unchanged is Benchmark HPA4. Connected via DAVE's RCA output and using Silver OCC cables. I've also tried copper or hybrid connections but it doesn't achieve the same performance. Of course IMHO!


----------



## Slim1970

stemiki said:


> An amplifier that keeps the tone of DAVE unchanged is Benchmark HPA4. Connected via DAVE's RCA output and using Silver OCC cables. I've also tried copper or hybrid connections but it doesn't achieve the same performance. Of course IMHO!


I kind of figured that. Amps like the Bryston BHA-1 and the newer Burson models would probably fit the bill as well. I have the Formula S/Powerman which is clean sounding, but the Dave on it's own with easy to drive headphones is just phenomenal. You can hear the loss in transparency immediately when using the Dave in DAC mode feeding any external amp.


----------



## lumdicks

stemiki said:


> An amplifier that keeps the tone of DAVE unchanged is Benchmark HPA4. Connected via DAVE's RCA output and using Silver OCC cables. I've also tried copper or hybrid connections but it doesn't achieve the same performance. Of course IMHO!


Absolutely agree, despite I pair it up with TT2 and M Scaler instead of Dave.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Slim1970 said:


> I kind of figured that. Amps like the Bryston BHA-1 and the newer Burson models would probably fit the bill as well. I have the Formula S/Powerman which is clean sounding, but the Dave on it's own with easy to drive headphones is just phenomenal. You can hear the loss in transparency immediately when using the Dave in DAC mode feeding any external amp.



I found that the BHA-1 adds a bit too much treble/bright tilt to the mix. The HPA4 straddles this line perfectly to my ears!


----------



## Slim1970

MacedonianHero said:


> I found that the BHA-1 adds a bit too much treble/bright tilt to the mix. The HPA4 straddles this line perfectly to my ears!


Nice, I really want to a tube or a hybrid amp. The problem I’m having is the more I listen to the Dave the more I want to maintain all of its sonic purity when I have to use a external amp. I might have to give the HPA4 a demo. The Dave is really making me rethink my setup.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Slim1970 said:


> Nice, I really want to a tube or a hybrid amp. The problem I’m having is the more I listen to the Dave the more I want to maintain all of its sonic purity when I have to use a external amp. I might have to give the HPA4 a demo. The Dave is really making me rethink my setup.



Maintaining "sonic purity" would be to just use the DAVE as is. I only use the HPA4 or HSA-1b when more power is needed for the Abyss Phi TC, Susvara or obviously the SR1a.


----------



## Slim1970

MacedonianHero said:


> Maintaining "sonic purity" would be to just use the DAVE as is. I only use the HPA4 or HSA-1b when more power is needed for the Abyss Phi TC, Susvara or obviously the SR1a.


Those are the headphones I would need a external amp for, minus the SR1a’s. I don’t have those but would like to give them another shot. My first experience with them wasn’t ideal.

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy my Luxman tremendously. Feeding it the Dave’s signal really ups it’s performance. I just have to let my ears readjust because it sounds so different than just listening to the Dave alone.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Slim1970 said:


> Those are the headphones I would need a external amp for, minus the SR1a’s. I don’t have those but would like to give them another shot. My first experience with them wasn’t ideal.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy my Luxman tremendously. Feeding it the Dave’s signal really ups it’s performance. I just have to let my ears readjust because it sounds so different than just listening to the Dave alone.



Gotcha...I'd definitely give the HPA4 a whirl...the reason I love it so much is that sonic purity PLUS the extra power.


----------



## tunes

rgs9200m said:


> Can I swtich my DAVE back and forth  between BNC input (from an MScaler) to direct USB input (from my computer) on the fly as a way to bypass the Mscaler? (This would be just using the input selections on my DAVE if I have both the DAVE and the MScaler connected via separate USB cables into my laptop.) Thanks.
> 
> (Oddly, I think I hear a little less distinct/detailed/solid bass with the Mscaler vs. what I am used to on DAVE direct. Maybe the MScaler needs break-in? Not sure. I'm trying to A/B test things just to test this. I use Meze Empyrean headphones. I'm not sure if I'm imagining things. I do think I hear some more mid and high details with the MScaler, but then I'm not sure exactly. I hear the same difference on my Grado GH1s also.)
> 
> ...


I would be interested to know what folks have settled on for headphones with DAVE.   I am hoping the Bakoon R13 will be the final answer for amplification between DAVE and the Susvara  so can use one amp for all head phones and avoid a dedicated speaker amp just for the Susvara. I believe the R13 is both HP and speaker amp at 25 w per chan.  I can’t afford a Riviera and want to stay away from tubes. Also, has anyone heard the ZMF VC with DAVE and compared to Utopia or HEKse straight from DAVE without an amp?


----------



## tunes

ray-dude said:


> Sorry, just seeing this (alas, pandemic-induced-tardiness...believe it or not, this past weekend was the first time I've been able to listen to music in 3-4 weeks).
> 
> I've only had Omega (Super/Compact) Alnico Monitors and Voxativ speakers (1.6 drivers and 4D drivers) connected to my DAVE, so I can't speak to the Cube Audio's directly (although they look very cool!)
> 
> ...


Can you tell us more about how you liked the Omega speakers driven by DAVE direct??


----------



## jlbrach

tunes said:


> I would be interested to know what folks have settled on for headphones with DAVE.   I am hoping the Bakoon R13 will be the final answer for amplification between DAVE and the Susvara  so can use one amp for all head phones and avoid a dedicated speaker amp just for the Susvara. I believe the R13 is both HP and speaker amp at 25 w per chan.  I can’t afford a Riviera and want to stay away from tubes. Also, has anyone heard the ZMF VC with DAVE and compared to Utopia or HEKse straight from DAVE without an amp?


the bakoon is great choice, you will love it


----------



## Mikey99 (Jun 11, 2021)

tunes said:


> I would be interested to know what folks have settled on for headphones with DAVE.   I am hoping the Bakoon R13 will be the final answer for amplification between DAVE and the Susvara  so can use one amp for all head phones and avoid a dedicated speaker amp just for the Susvara. I believe the R13 is both HP and speaker amp at 25 w per chan.  I can’t afford a Riviera and want to stay away from tubes. Also, has anyone heard the ZMF VC with DAVE and compared to Utopia or HEKse straight from DAVE without an amp?


The ZMF VC closed work beautifully with the DAVE direct. I usually just listen direct with it, my Riviera does not add much. I have not compared with the Utopia or HEKse direct from DAVE. However, based on experience with other headphones, it seem easy to drive headphones play very nicely with the Dave. In particular, those with a richer tonal balance pair nicely. E.g., Spirit Torino Valkyria.

However, for more difficult to drive headphones DAVE direct is challenged - e.g., AB1266. It may also be a bit too neutral with certain headphones.


----------



## alxw0w

I used ZMF Auteur (so similar in terms of efficiency to VC) with Dave directly. And can confirm that for me the power delivery from Dave was enough.
On some recordings when I pushed the volume you could hear the Dave would struggle a bit - but it was so loud that I wouldn't be listening that loud definitely not the whole track.
But I can see how some people would need more power. My listening level is rather in medium range. I have sensitive ears especially to high frequencies.


----------



## griff500

tunes said:


> I would be interested to know what folks have settled on for headphones with DAVE.   I am hoping the Bakoon R13 will be the final answer for amplification between DAVE and the Susvara  so can use one amp for all head phones and avoid a dedicated speaker amp just for the Susvara. I believe the R13 is both HP and speaker amp at 25 w per chan.  I can’t afford a Riviera and want to stay away from tubes. Also, has anyone heard the ZMF VC with DAVE and compared to Utopia or HEKse straight from DAVE without an amp?


I use ZMF Verite Open and Focal Stellia headphones from my DAVE and they both work extremely well.


----------



## VladYR

I came across something slightly strange and wanted to see if others have experienced something similar with their Dave. When I was playing music, the display would go completely off after selecting a track in any given album. As the album would play, subsequent tracks would not wake the display. However, album changes would and then the the sort of behavior persisted. Admittedly, I find the always on display rather annoying but just wanted to see if this is normal or a malfunction that ought to be looked at by Chord given that this is a 2 month old unit.


----------



## jcn3

VladYR said:


> I came across something slightly strange and wanted to see if others have experienced something similar with their Dave. When I was playing music, the display would go completely off after selecting a track in any given album. As the album would play, subsequent tracks would not wake the display. However, album changes would and then the the sort of behavior persisted. Admittedly, I find the always on display rather annoying but just wanted to see if this is normal or a malfunction that ought to be looked at by Chord given that this is a 2 month old unit.


Display mode four turns the display on only for changes - what you're experiencing is normal.


----------



## stemiki

VladYR said:


> I came across something slightly strange and wanted to see if others have experienced something similar with their Dave. When I was playing music, the display would go completely off after selecting a track in any given album. As the album would play, subsequent tracks would not wake the display. However, album changes would and then the the sort of behavior persisted. Admittedly, I find the always on display rather annoying but just wanted to see if this is normal or a malfunction that ought to be looked at by Chord given that this is a 2 month old unit.


Is Normal!


----------



## adrianm

Is anyone using Itunes bit perfect on windows ? Or any other suggestions for playing apple music to Dave via optical? Not a big believer streamers as a sound quality upgrade (would rather not get into it again).


----------



## griff500

jcn3 said:


> Display mode four turns the display on only for changes - what you're experiencing is normal.


That sounds like it would be the best mode to use then - display off as much as possible.


----------



## JohnA1

Yep, display mode 4 is what I have settled on.
Least intrusive.


----------



## VladYR

Thanks for the answer. This mode is actually preferable for me, especially at night when watching movies or burning in new cables. That screen is so bright it lights up the whole sealing. I tend to cover it with a piece of cloth.


----------



## NYanakiev

After what seemed like an endless couple of weeks, my black DAVE is finally en route to me for delivery tomorrow. 
A black Mscaler and the WAVE STRATOS (soon to be replaced by WAVE’s STORM) have been patiently awaiting its arrival.

I would very appreciate a suggestion of a set of tracks to get started with. I own a pair of Utopias and Obravo’s Ra 21 C-Cu. 
I will be using a Sonore optical Rendu+opticalModule Deluxe as my source/Roon endpoint.

Many thanks in advance!


----------



## beemarman

NYanakiev said:


> After what seemed like an endless couple of weeks, my black DAVE is finally en route to me for delivery tomorrow.
> A black Mscaler and the WAVE STRATOS (soon to be replaced by WAVE’s STORM) have been patiently awaiting its arrival.
> 
> I would very appreciate a suggestion of a set of tracks to get started with. I own a pair of Utopias and Obravo’s Ra 21 C-Cu.
> ...


Just que up your favourite track and enjoy.   You don’t need anyone to recommend you a track that you probably wouldn’t like anyway.


----------



## NYanakiev

Well, it arrived! Needed help from Chord to get it to play music but wow is it great or what?! 

I still need to try the WAVE STRATOS but I don't have much space between the desk and the wall. If I buy them I'd need to think of a different setup altogether...


----------



## NYanakiev (Jun 15, 2021)

@alxw0w thanks ever so much for the stand recommendation

Moved things around to use the WAVE STRATOS and not keep the two units too close.
WAVE‘s STORM coming in soon- I will have the pleasure of comparing the two side by side.


----------



## LucyWu

NYanakiev said:


> Well, it arrived! Needed help from Chord to get it to play music but wow is it great or what?!
> 
> I still need to try the WAVE STRATOS but I don't have much space between the desk and the wall. If I buy them I'd need to think of a different setup altogether...


Excellent set up (I have mostly the same). The Stratos cables take a bit of wrangling, but well worth the effort - big improvement on the stock cables.

Next step - ditch the mscaler psu for something better. (You didn't think you'd be done now, did you?)


----------



## Ragnar-BY

@Rob Watts 
Sorry to bother with a question that was clearly already discussed, but the search did not help. What volume setting corresponds to 2V and 1V on line output? Maybe there is a table with voltage and loudness values somewhere?

I found that the standard -3dB in DAC mode does not overload my amplifier noticeably, but makes the sound more compressed and flat than preamplifier mode set to -7 .. -10 dB.


----------



## TheAttorney

While we're interrupting @Rob Watts , I have another question:

I've been trying a server that can output up to 176 kHz on AES.
The spec for DAVE states that its AES input has max of 88 kHz. Yet DAVE plays fine at the higher setting. 
Any reason why I shouldn't continue running at the higher rate if I'm not experiencing any glitches?


----------



## jcn3 (Jun 15, 2021)

TheAttorney said:


> While we're interrupting @Rob Watts , I have another question:
> 
> I've been trying a server that can output up to 176 kHz on AES.
> The spec for DAVE states that its AES input has max of 88 kHz. Yet DAVE plays fine at the higher setting.
> Any reason why I shouldn't continue running at the higher rate if I'm not experiencing any glitches?



no, there's no reason that you can't continue to use it.  either it'll work or it doesn't.  i've gotten 192k and dsd64 through optical on my dave -- sounds great.

i do find it interesting that your server only goes up to 176k on aes.  the spec is typically up to 192k -- a multiple of 48k.  do you have any details on your server's limitation?


----------



## ecwl

Ragnar-BY said:


> @Rob Watts
> Sorry to bother with a question that was clearly already discussed, but the search did not help. What volume setting corresponds to 2V and 1V on line output? Maybe there is a table with voltage and loudness values somewhere?
> 
> I found that the standard -3dB in DAC mode does not overload my amplifier noticeably, but makes the sound more compressed and flat than preamplifier mode set to -7 .. -10 dB.


Remember that M-scaler lowers the volume by -2.7dB too (although I just treat it as -3dB)
Also, I‘m reasonably sure (though not 100%) balanced voltages are double unbalanced.

So I made a chart for myself so I don’t forget. Left it on my Notes app in iCloud:
DAVE output voltages unbalanced
-3dB = 3V
-7dB = 2V
-13dB = 1V
Digital Clipping +4dB

balanced output impedance 33ohms

With M-Scaler voltages (technically 2.7dB reduction)
0dB = 3V
-4dB = 2V
-10dB = 1V
Digital Clipping +7dB

M-Scaler voltages with balanced output
-6dB =3V
-10dB = 2V
-16dB - 1V


----------



## TheAttorney

jcn3 said:


> no, there's no reason that you can't continue to use it.  either it'll work or it doesn't.  i've gotten 192k and dsd64 through optical on my dave -- sounds great.
> i do find it interesting that your server only goes up to 176k on aes.  the spec is typically up to 192k -- a multiple of 48k.  do you have any details on your server's limitation?


Thankyou for the confirmation. The server on trial is a Grimm MU1 which I'm considering to replace my optimised NUC. 
After checking the spec, the MU1 does indeed go up to 192k - just that almost all my music files are 16/44k. I do have a few 48k files around, as well as some 24/44k, so I need to check out if those will also work.


----------



## Jawed

NYanakiev said:


> Moved things around to use the WAVE STRATOS and not keep the two units too close.


You failed there 

Now playing: Grouper - I'm Clean Now


----------



## NYanakiev

Finally got around to trying out my Ra 21-C-Cu with the Dave and Mscaler. Suffice to say, they sound nothing short of amazing.

Very different sound signature compared to the Utopias with a cavernous sound stage and awesome bass. Love it!!

@PhilW


----------



## Rob Watts

Ragnar-BY said:


> @Rob Watts
> Sorry to bother with a question that was clearly already discussed, but the search did not help. What volume setting corresponds to 2V and 1V on line output? Maybe there is a table with voltage and loudness values somewhere?
> 
> I found that the standard -3dB in DAC mode does not overload my amplifier noticeably, but makes the sound more compressed and flat than preamplifier mode set to -7 .. -10 dB.


@ecwl kindly beat me to an answer! Yes the best setting does depend somewhat on the pre-amp.


TheAttorney said:


> While we're interrupting @Rob Watts , I have another question:
> 
> I've been trying a server that can output up to 176 kHz on AES.
> The spec for DAVE states that its AES input has max of 88 kHz. Yet DAVE plays fine at the higher setting.
> Any reason why I shouldn't continue running at the higher rate if I'm not experiencing any glitches?



No reason at all. AES is technically inferior to BNC as it was put together simply because studios use XLRs and have lots of mic cables hanging around. Because it's not a solid RF standard, Chord are playing safe with 88kHz.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

@Rob Watts @ecwl Thank you for clarification!

By the way, Rob, I have to admit that although I thought differently at first, over time I became convinced that your digital volume control works better than any analog attenuator. Even if the attenuator is built with separate resistors, no matter what unobtanium these resistors are made of.


----------



## NYanakiev (Jun 16, 2021)

I have been using the mDAVE with the Ra 21-C-Cu IEMs all day today- along with the Wave STRATOS, of course.
The An Introduction to Qobuz playlist played back through Roon has been a great showcase for my new system.

To say that I am thrilled with the outcome would be an understatement.
@Rob Watts many thanks for your patience in answering my endless questions! Feels great sitting at the top of the summit!

EDIT: That is, until I get the Wave STORM in the next few days! @Triode User


----------



## NYanakiev (Jun 16, 2021)

I have a bit of a weird issue. I am experiencing an issue using the Ra 21-C-Cu (made out of copper) when listening to music connected to:

a) Focal Arche+Rasperry Pi (Roon endpoint) with an iFi iPower power supply
b) Dave+Mscaler+Sonore Optical Rendu+Optical module (Dave+Mscaler using stock PSUs, Rendu units using a switching power supply)
-->Source gets internet through an ethernet cable plugged into a Devolo powerline adapter

After 10-15 minutes of listening my ears start getting small electrical shocks that are not painful but certainly unpleasant.
Any ideas??? Has anyone had to deal with this sort of issue before??


----------



## ecwl

NYanakiev said:


> I have a bit of a weird issue. I am experiencing an issue using the Ra 21-C-Cu (made out of copper) when listening to music connected to:
> 
> a) Focal Arche+Rasperry Pi (Roon endpoint) with an iFi iPower power supply
> b) Dave+Mscaler+Sonore Optical Rendu+Optical module (Dave+Mscaler using stock PSUs, Rendu units using a switching power supply)
> ...


I suspect you need to ground something somewhere. My best guess is the Optical Rendu connected to the M-scaler with the switching power supply. But it's possible you need to ground the M-Scaler instead. 

I would try the iFi Groundhog+
https://ifi-audio.com/products/groundhog/
Because it comes with so many adaptors, you can ground different devices with the adaptors until you figured out where the problem is.


----------



## NYanakiev (Jun 17, 2021)

I think I found the problem. My work laptop has a European plug- it was near me the whole time sitting on the same desk.

It was switched off but still plugged in- removing the power cord made the problem disappear completely.

EDIT: kudos to @SteveHulk for the invaluable assistance that led to the issue being identified


----------



## Triode User

NYanakiev said:


> I think I found the problem. My work laptop has a European plug- it was near me the whole time sitting on the same desk.
> 
> It was switched off but still plugged in- removing the power cord made the problem disappear completely.


Haha, almost too funny but glad you got it sorted!!


----------



## JohnA1

Ragnar-BY said:


> @Rob Watts @ecwl .. digital volume control works better than any analog attenuator. Even if the attenuator is built with separate resistors, no matter what unobtanium these resistors are made of.


My understanding is that analog attenuation affects damping factor.
I'm sure an electronics expert will correct me if that is not always the case..


----------



## NYanakiev

Triode User said:


> Haha, almost too funny but glad you got it sorted!!


Yeah, problem is somehow gone... I was expecting a much longer uphill battle to fight in identifying the culprit.


----------



## NYanakiev

And yes, I am aware it is better to keep the two separated but I love the cleaner setup!


----------



## Lgn3

Glossator said:


> Nick - I was skeptical ... and then astonished.   It really does make a very surprising difference ... even through headphones.   And it need not be expensive .... http://www.ingress-engineering.ca/ ...


I can second what Glossator says  after reading the above and ordering  the Ingress rollerblocks to place under my Dave. I now have a second set under my CD player.


----------



## NYanakiev

Lgn3 said:


> I can second what Glossator says  after reading the above and ordering  the Ingress rollerblocks to place under my Dave. I now have a second set under my CD player.


Nice, might put these under both Dave and the Mscaler. Probably helps with keeping things cool too.
Which ones did you go for?


----------



## Lgn3 (Jun 17, 2021)

Level 3 Version 3 7075 RollerBlock 3 inch radius


----------



## griff500

Glossator said:


> Nick - I was skeptical ... and then astonished.   It really does make a very surprising difference ... even through headphones.   And it need not be expensive .... http://www.ingress-engineering.ca/ ...


It looks like a similar principle to Ansuz Darkz, albeit less balls and far more affordable. I tried some Darkz under my DAVE and they  definitely seemed to make a difference. I put them back under my distributor and I'm using IsoAcoustic Orea at the moment.


----------



## Glossator (Jun 18, 2021)

griff500 said:


> It looks like a similar principle to Ansuz Darkz, albeit less balls and far more affordable. I tried some Darkz under my DAVE and they  definitely seemed to make a difference. I put them back under my distributor and I'm using IsoAcoustic Orea at the moment.


That wouldn't surprise me.   I was just following hints helpfully dropped by Ray - and I understand that the effect is sufficiently nuanced that you can hear the difference between balls of different diameters and materials.    The physics is complicated.    I get the impression that on the one hand it helps to insulate from external vibrations (e..g produced by speakers), but that the other aspect is absorbing microphony produced by the DAC itself.  As ever, experimentation is best if you feel like it  (and my rollerballs sit on type of a Daiza).   Or, you can just settle down (as I have for the moment!) to enjoy the amazing results.


----------



## ZappaMan

Glossator said:


> Nick - I was skeptical ... and then astonished.   It really does make a very surprising difference ... even through headphones.   And it need not be expensive .... http://www.ingress-engineering.ca/ ...


Is the postage expensive ?


----------



## Glossator

Not in Canadian terms, as I recall.  But then there was UK VAT and import handling charges which, in percentage (if not absolute) terms, were annoying!


----------



## Jawed

Seems no one around here has tried these yet:

Tungsten Groove

Developed using DAVE.


----------



## NYanakiev

I ordered 8 of these puppies: X4 for Dave and X4 for the Mscaler.
Well regarded and cheap as chips!


----------



## Glossator

NYanakiev said:


> I ordered 8 of these puppies: X4 for Dave and X4 for the Mscaler.
> Well regarded and cheap as chips!


Indeed!


----------



## Slim1970

Jawed said:


> Seems no one around here has tried these yet:
> 
> Tungsten Groove
> 
> Developed using DAVE.


Probably because there are a lot of cheaper alternatives to getting rid of vibration and isolating components.


----------



## Glossator

Slim1970 said:


> Probably because there are a lot of cheaper alternatives to getting rid of vibration and isolating components.


Yes.    And if you read around a bit (eg in relation to Taiko’s rationalisation of their Daiza) it seem rather doubtful whether, even if money were no object, the approach taken by the Tungsten Groove would be likely to yield the best results.


----------



## silversurfer616

Slim1970 said:


> Probably because there are a lot of cheaper alternatives to getting rid of vibration and isolating components.


Cheaper won’t do here…it drags the Dave down.


----------



## Slim1970

silversurfer616 said:


> Cheaper won’t do here…it drags the Dave down.


Very true, but I don't think paying that much for isolation feet is a good investment. At least not for me. The Choral stand is cheaper and l have one coming for my Dave soon.


----------



## VladYR

Slim1970 said:


> Very true, but I don't think paying that much for isolation feet is a good investment. At least not for me. The Choral stand is cheaper and l have one coming for my Dave soon.


Ansuz Acoustics make some isolation equipment but their prices tend to verge on absurd when it comes to this. Even with a 25% off I’m not tempted. I’m about to test out some of their power cords soon. Hopefully my wallet won’t take a beating afterwards 🤣😂


----------



## Jon L

Jawed said:


> Seems no one around here has tried these yet:
> 
> Tungsten Groove
> 
> Developed using DAVE.


The taller one is $2400 EACH? So one will need three, $7200 for one component?
No wonder no one around here has tried them!


----------



## silversurfer616

Slim1970 said:


> Very true, but I don't think paying that much for isolation feet is a good investment. At least not for me. The Choral stand is cheaper and l have one coming for my Dave soon.


There is a market for everything, especially in the audiophile universe.


----------



## Slim1970

silversurfer616 said:


> There is a market for everything, especially in the audiophile universe.


Yes there is


----------



## NYanakiev (Jun 19, 2021)

Wave Storm have arrived, thanks @Triode User for the fantastic service. I even got some foam supports to help preserve those BNC connectors on the Dave and Mscaler.

The STORMs are not much thicker or heavier versus the STRATOS as I had feared. Initial impressions on the Utopias are fantastic.

My last upgrade for the time being is now en route from Texas- a set of 8 Baby Booties for the two units!

STRATOS (top) versus STORMs (bottom)


----------



## NYanakiev

NYanakiev said:


> Wave Storm have arrived, thanks @Triode User for the fantastic service. I even got some foam supports to help preserve those BNC connectors on the Dave and Mscaler.
> 
> The STORMs are not much thicker or heavier versus the STRATOS as I had feared. Initial impressions on the Utopias are fantastic.
> 
> ...


The Utopias sound just insane. A perfect Saturday morning enjoying the new setup!


----------



## JTbbb

NYanakiev said:


> The Utopias sound just insane. A perfect Saturday morning enjoying the new setup!



Some folks have not fared too well in the past with D BNC 1. I’m on my second Dave and have always used D BNC 3. Maybe one day I will try t’other.


----------



## Jawed

Jon L said:


> The taller one is $2400 EACH? So one will need three, $7200 for one component?
> No wonder no one around here has tried them!


Well, it seems there are some people spending a total of $40k+ on all the other stuff (power supplies, cables, servers, network devices, digital purifiers, mains filtering) for HMS+DAVE so I'm honestly mystified why no one has tried them... 

Can easily spend the same as this on a single pair of analogue interconnects...


----------



## NYanakiev

JTbbb said:


> Some folks have not fared too well in the past with D BNC 1. I’m on my second Dave and have always used D BNC 3. Maybe one day I will try t’other.


Are you referring to people getting dropouts on DBNC1? None for me thus far, knock on wood.


----------



## JTbbb

NYanakiev said:


> Are you referring to people getting dropouts on DBNC1? None for me thus far, knock on wood.



Yes, I think there might of been some other issues too. When all is well, leave well alone!


----------



## Triode User

JTbbb said:


> Yes, I think there might of been some other issues too. When all is well, leave well alone!


There was an (unproven) suspicion that bnc 1 and 2 might be inferior to 3 and 4 because they are closer to the analogue outputs but i cant say i have ever noticed any difference.


----------



## JohnA1

Jawed said:


> Seems no one around here has tried these yet:
> 
> Tungsten Groove
> 
> Developed using DAVE.


Surely this is a windup


----------



## Amberlamps

It’s from Nintronics, that explains it.


----------



## griff500

VladYR said:


> Ansuz Acoustics make some isolation equipment but their prices tend to verge on absurd when it comes to this. Even with a 25% off I’m not tempted. I’m about to test out some of their power cords soon. Hopefully my wallet won’t take a beating afterwards 🤣😂


Are you trying their distributor as well? I have been impressed with their products and you can usually negotiate decent discounts.

Darkz are horribly expensive but they do work well.


----------



## VladYR

griff500 said:


> Are you trying their distributor as well? I have been impressed with their products and you can usually negotiate decent discounts.
> 
> Darkz are horribly expensive but they do work well.


I recently tried their previous generation mainz 8 diamond and wasn’t really impressed compared to my current Mainz 8 xtc, which they sold me last summer for $600 as a demo. I may give their more expensive variants a try and see if they make a perceptible difference.


----------



## griff500 (Jun 21, 2021)

VladYR said:


> I recently tried their previous generation mainz 8 diamond and wasn’t really impressed compared to my current Mainz 8 xtc, which they sold me last summer for $600 as a demo. I may give their more expensive variants a try and see if they make a perceptible difference.


Let us know what you think if you try them. 

I've only tried the Mainz 8 A2 and C2 distributors and I did find they made a noticeable difference.


----------



## tunes

Glossator said:


> Indeed!


Is there any consensus on what reasonably priced RCA interconnects to use for the DAVE with external amp for Susvara?


----------



## NYanakiev

A quick update from my side after a couple of days with the new setup. Dave+Mscaler are exactly what I hoped for and more. 
I spent the first few days using my Utopias- which, as I expected, turned out to be a fantastic pairing.

The real star of the show, however, has been my IEMs- Obravo’s Ra 21 C-Cu. I was taken aback by the soundstage and authority of the sound reproduced by the Obravos. I have tried them with the Mojo, my former Hugo 2 and Focal Arche prior to Dave. They just keep performing better and better depending on what is powering them. Give them a listen if you can get a home demo- Phil made me aware that he now has a demo unit! 

@PhilW


----------



## Slim1970

Here’s a great review of three very good DAC’s. I won’t disclose which one he moved to his reference system, but since I’m posting here it’s worth a look/listen to see why:


----------



## edwardsean

Slim1970 said:


> Here’s a great review of three very good DAC’s. I won’t disclose which one he moved to his reference system, but since I’m posting here it’s worth a look/listen to see why:



I saw this a few hours ago. Many, like Darko, feel the opposite way, so I thought he'd put it down more to preference. His clear statement of superiority surprised me


----------



## Slim1970

edwardsean said:


> I saw this a few hours ago. Many, like Darko, feel the opposite way, so I thought he'd put it down more to preference. His clear statement of superiority surprised me


Agreed, sound preferences play a huge roll in ones component selections, but he clearly had made a statement at the end.


----------



## tunes

tunes said:


> Is there any consensus on what reasonably priced RCA interconnects to use for the DAVE with external amp for Susvara?


What about these from Requisite Audio




> > We make our Cables in both Silver/Copper and Silver.  I will quote both for you using the same length as in the article.
> >
> > For a Silver/Copper 3.5 feet long Line Level (RCA Connector) the price is $84.00 each or $168.00 for a pair plus shipping.
> >
> > For a Silver 3.5 feet long Line Level (RCA Connector) the price is $122.00 each or $244.00 for a pair plus shipping.


----------



## iDesign

Slim1970 said:


> Here’s a great review of three very good DAC’s. I won’t disclose which one he moved to his reference system, but since I’m posting here it’s worth a look/listen to see why:



Unsurprising he picked the DAVE as his reference DAC— it still has no equal.


----------



## ZappaMan

iDesign said:


> Unsurprising he picked the DAVE as his reference DAC— it still has no equal.


He probably hasn’t heard the tt2 yet.


----------



## VladYR

Slim1970 said:


> Agreed, sound preferences play a huge roll in ones component selections, but he clearly had made a statement at the end.


Darko is a little strange to say the least. After his reviews of the Dave and later Bartok with the Empyrean, I don’t really trust his reviews and videos. He seemed to have thoroughly enjoyed the Dave paired with LCD4, which isn’t at all surprising, and then a few weeks later essentially raved about the Bartok powering a pair of Empyrean, which sounds objectively worse than Sony’s TAZH1E, which I had a few months ago. One would have to really try hard to find a worse sounding dac/amp/streamer with that kind of budget.


----------



## TDinCali

Gents,

on Tuesday I have an appointment to listen to the TT2, Mscaler and Dave at my local dealer. Any tips or suggestions I should keep in mind? My plan is to bring the Susvara and Utopia’s. Should I bring my Bakoon amp for the Susvara’s?

Thanks!


----------



## Ciggavelli

TDinCali said:


> Gents,
> 
> on Tuesday I have an appointment to listen to the TT2, Mscaler and Dave at my local dealer. Any tips or suggestions I should keep in mind? My plan is to bring the Susvara and Utopia’s. Should I bring my Bakoon amp for the Susvara’s?
> 
> Thanks!


For the Susvaras, you have to use the XLRs on the back of the TT2. It will sound bad out of the single ended connections on the TT2 and DAVE. I’d bring the Bakoon, because you’ll definitely want to try the DAVE/Bakoon combo. If you go DAVE you basically have to also use a powerful headphone amp. So, keep that in mind. But, the DAVE/M-scaler is a great


----------



## Slim1970

VladYR said:


> Darko is a little strange to say the least. After his reviews of the Dave and later Bartok with the Empyrean, I don’t really trust his reviews and videos. He seemed to have thoroughly enjoyed the Dave paired with LCD4, which isn’t at all surprising, and then a few weeks later essentially raved about the Bartok powering a pair of Empyrean, which sounds objectively worse than Sony’s TAZH1E, which I had a few months ago. One would have to really try hard to find a worse sounding dac/amp/streamer with that kind of budget.


You would think with the Empyrean's sound signature the Dave would be a much better choice than the Bartok with them. The Empyrean's NEED all the resolution and clarity they can get to my ears.


----------



## VladYR

Slim1970 said:


> You would think with the Empyrean's sound signature the Dave would be a much better choice than the Bartok with them. The Empyrean's NEED all the resolution and clarity they can get to my ears.


That’s what I thought. No matter what changes I made in Bartok’s control app, it just wouldn’t sound entertaining and my points of comparison were rather modest comparatively speaking (the above-mentioned Sony amp and Nordost Frey 2 power). Surprisingly, Bartok’s crossfeed on the maximum setting sounded quite bad and unnatural. I much prefer Dave’s subtle approach. Aside from that, Dave can be easily picked up and moved to practically anywhere or taken on vacation. You can’t really do that with Bartok given its size.


----------



## Slim1970

VladYR said:


> That’s what I thought. No matter what changes I made in Bartok’s control app, it just wouldn’t sound entertaining and my points of comparison were rather modest comparatively speaking (the above-mentioned Sony amp and Nordost Frey 2 power). Surprisingly, Bartok’s crossfeed on the maximum setting sounded quite bad and unnatural. I much prefer Dave’s subtle approach. Aside from that, Dave can be easily picked up and moved to practically anywhere or taken on vacation. You can’t really do that with Bartok given its size.


I know of one head-fier who does just that. He takes his Bartok from room to room with his AB-1266 TC's, haha. The Dave would be much easier to tote around.


----------



## VladYR

Slim1970 said:


> I know of one head-fier who does just that. He takes his Bartok from room to room with his AB-1266 TC's, haha. The Dave would be much easier to tote around.


Seems like a rather cumbersome and time consuming chore, especially if there are power conditioners and multiple cables. I think I know who you might be referring to. Did he previously have a TT2 before getting the Bartok?


----------



## Slim1970

VladYR said:


> Seems like a rather cumbersome and time consuming chore, especially if there are power conditioners and multiple cables. I think I know who you might be referring to. Did he previously have a TT2 before getting the Bartok?


Yes, I'm sure he'll chime in later. Great guy, btw!


----------



## Ragnar-BY

TDinCali said:


> My plan is to bring the Susvara and Utopia’s. Should I bring my Bakoon amp for the Susvara’s?


Definitely try DAVE -> Bakoon -> Susvara vs. just DAVE -> Utopia. This DAC is so good in its purest form, that I'm actually thinking about selling my Headtrip and using only sensitive cans in the future.


----------



## jlbrach

that has always been the calculation....the dave DAC used without an amp is magnificent BUT you need a very efficient HP and the utopia or Stellia would be 2 that fit the bill....sadly in my case I happen to love the harder to drive HP's which necessitates an amp like the bakoon which I own.....


----------



## Slim1970

Ragnar-BY said:


> Definitely try DAVE -> Bakoon -> Susvara vs. just DAVE -> Utopia. This DAC is so good in its purest form, that I'm actually thinking about selling my Headtrip and using only sensitive cans in the future.


That is where I am. I like listening straight out of the Dave that only my sensitive cans are getting majority of my playing time.


----------



## iDesign (Jun 27, 2021)

Agreed. If the Utopia suits the genres you listen to there is nothing better directly connected to the DAVE.


----------



## TDinCali

Good to know. Looking forward to hearing it.


----------



## kenray536

Anyone running the Topping A90 Headphone amp with Dave?

I use the headphone amp in the Dave a lot, but I also own an iCan Pro.
Just looking to mix things up for fun.

I originally was looking at the the BenchMark HPA4, but looks like the A90 gets similar/better measurements and costs quite a bit less.

Thoughts?

Here is a full review:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...topping-a90-headphone-amplifier-review.13592/

My Headphones:
sennheiser 800S
sennheiser 6XX
Utopia
Stax L700


----------



## MatW

kenray536 said:


> Anyone running the Topping A90 Headphone amp with Dave?
> 
> I use the headphone amp in the Dave a lot, but I also own an iCan Pro.
> Just looking to mix things up for fun.
> ...


I have the A90 and I like it, but I don't use it with the Dave. Whenever possible I listen straight from the Dave. I only use an amp for hard to drive headphones like the Susvara.


----------



## iDesign

kenray536 said:


> Anyone running the Topping A90 Headphone amp with Dave?
> 
> I use the headphone amp in the Dave a lot, but I also own an iCan Pro.
> Just looking to mix things up for fun.
> ...


An outboard amplifier is not needed with the DAVE and Sennheiser HD 800 S, HD 6XX, and Focal Utopia. I would look at using the funds to optimize other more crucial parts of your system like adding the Hugo M Scaler, an upgraded source, etc.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

kenray536 said:


> My Headphones:
> sennheiser 800S
> sennheiser 6XX
> Utopia
> Stax L700



Stax needs it's own amp. Utopia and Senn 6XX will play great with DAVE directly. 800S are great with tubes, but still ok with DAVE... In your setup Topping can only degrade SQ.


----------



## iDesign

Ragnar-BY said:


> In your setup Topping can only degrade SQ.


Good advice here.


----------



## jlbrach

kenray536 said:


> Anyone running the Topping A90 Headphone amp with Dave?
> 
> I use the headphone amp in the Dave a lot, but I also own an iCan Pro.
> Just looking to mix things up for fun.
> ...


dont pay any attention to that site,basically any expensive iten is regarded as a rip off and any less expensive model is said to measure better and be better......I own the a90 as a travel amp and believe me it isnt in the same league


----------



## silversurfer616

I had the Topping D90 dac just to try out MQA and according to *that site* it’s measurements are really good but I thought it mediocre at best. So good advice to invest the money in something else, you don’t want to go back to mid-fi hell.


----------



## VladYR

Has anyone tried a usb reclocker from Innuos with their Dave or in combination with Dave and the M Scaler? I’m  considering auditioning their Zenith server and the reclocker to feed my Linn streamer. My library is growing rather large and I don’t use streaming quite as much lately. Any thoughts?


----------



## Ciggavelli

VladYR said:


> Has anyone tried a usb reclocker from Innuos with their Dave or in combination with Dave and the M Scaler? I’m  considering auditioning their Zenith server and the reclocker to feed my Linn streamer. My library is growing rather large and I don’t use streaming quite as much lately. Any thoughts?


The Phoenix USB reclocker makes a noticeable improvement. The streamer is also good, but the improvement is more subtle. While I like the Innuos stuff, you can’t install your own ssds, and 2 Zenith mk3s broke on me.  So, I guess there’s that, but they’re still good products.


----------



## kenray536 (Jun 28, 2021)

Ragnar-BY said:


> Stax needs it's own amp. Utopia and Senn 6XX will play great with DAVE directly. 800S are great with tubes, but still ok with DAVE... In your setup Topping can only degrade SQ.
> 
> 
> silversurfer616 said:
> ...



Thanks for talking me down everyone…lol That was exactly the kind of input that I was looking for on the A90. I will definitely avoid it and also that site.

Tempted to try the HPA4 but I will probably hold off since the headphones I have right now aren’t demanding.

Guess I’m still searching for that next upgrade…thinking maybe a linear power supply upgrade in my Auralic G1 streamer…😀


----------



## MatW

kenray536 said:


> Thanks for talking me down everyone…lol That was exactly the kind of input that I was looking for on the A90. I will definitely avoid it and also that site.
> 
> Tempted to try the HPA4 but I will probably hold off since the headphones I have right now aren’t demanding.
> 
> Guess I’m still searching for that next upgrade…thinking maybe a linear power supply upgrade in my Auralic G1 streamer…😀


Upgrade the headphones first maybe.


----------



## Triode User

VladYR said:


> Has anyone tried a usb reclocker from Innuos with their Dave or in combination with Dave and the M Scaler? I’m  considering auditioning their Zenith server and the reclocker to feed my Linn streamer. My library is growing rather large and I don’t use streaming quite as much lately. Any thoughts?


In a word, yes. I use the Innuos PhoenixUSB with my MScaler + Dave system and I am very pleased with the sound quality it added to the system. I also use their Zenith streamer server. It is possible that with the Zenith you might be able to dispense with your Linn streamer.

I have been running the Innuos 2.0 beta software for a while now on the Zenith and I really like it. It starts roll out on 1st July to Statement owners and then next will be Zenith and Zen.


----------



## mammal

Slim1970 said:


> I know of one head-fier who does just that. He takes his Bartok from room to room with his AB-1266 TC's, haha. The Dave would be much easier to tote around.





VladYR said:


> Seems like a rather cumbersome and time consuming chore, especially if there are power conditioners and multiple cables. I think I know who you might be referring to. Did he previously have a TT2 before getting the Bartok?





Slim1970 said:


> Yes, I'm sure he'll chime in later. Great guy, btw!


Haha, you found me, yes, that's me! I absolutely agree and wish that I had Dave when it comes to transportability. My wife thinks I am crazy taking 15kg device up the stairs.


----------



## VladYR

mammal said:


> Haha, you found me, yes, that's me! I absolutely agree and wish that I had Dave when it comes to transportability. My wife thinks I am crazy taking 15kg device up the stairs.


That’s not crazy. It’s true dedication to the hobby 😆🤣😂


----------



## griff500

Triode User said:


> In a word, yes. I use the Innuos PhoenixUSB with my MScaler + Dave system and I am very pleased with the sound quality it added to the system.


What improvements do you feel it provided?


----------



## VladYR

Thanks for the advice concerning the Innuos devices. My M Scaler finally comes in next week. I’ll probably do some auditioning of those things soon after. The total cost of this system is starting to make the Bartok look affordable in comparison 😆😁


----------



## griff500

mammal said:


> Haha, you found me, yes, that's me! I absolutely agree and wish that I had Dave when it comes to transportability. My wife thinks I am crazy taking 15kg device up the stairs.


She doesn't think you're crazy spending that money on it though... it's just the carrying up the stairs that she thinks is crazy...


----------



## mammal

griff500 said:


> She doesn't think you're crazy spending that money on it though... it's just the carrying up the stairs that she thinks is crazy...


She thinks I am crazy for all sorts of things, I promised her I won’t get into dangerous hobbies (motorcycles, military tanks, fighter jets), so when I told her I will spend my money on audio, she put things into perspective I guess


----------



## mammal

VladYR said:


> The total cost of this system is starting to make the Bartok look affordable in comparison


Riiiiiiight  The issue with Bartok is that it opens up you to dCS’s range (you can spend up to 100k), where as with Chord you maxed out.


----------



## muski

VladYR said:


> Has anyone tried a usb reclocker from Innuos with their Dave or in combination with Dave and the M Scaler? I’m  considering auditioning their Zenith server and the reclocker to feed my Linn streamer. My library is growing rather large and I don’t use streaming quite as much lately. Any thoughts?


I use the Innuos re-clocker between my OpticalRendu and M Scaler/DAVE.  A very significant improvement in my headphone rig, and even more noticeable in my Devialet Expert 1000 two-channel system.

There’s one short thread on it.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/innuos-phoenix-usb-reclocker.942986/post-16239201

Well worth an audition!


----------



## iDesign (Jun 30, 2021)

Over the years I have written much about the crossfeed in the DAVE and my thoughts about the 0, 1, 2, and 3 setting with headphones like the HD 800 S, HD 650, Abyss 1266 Phi TC. I decided to revisit the crossfeed 3 setting with the Focal Utopia and its my observation that the crossfeed increases the perception of sound stage but adds a softness to notes. The drivers used in the Utopia are astonishingly fast and highly resolving and with the crossfeed 0 setting enabled, the Utopia is able to demonstrate its exemplary qualities of dynamics, attack, and speed. I have consistently found that the DAVE, M Scaler, and Utopia combined provide the most accurate reproduction of the piano I have ever heard and far exceed the Orpheus HE-1 and Susvara. The drivers of the Utopia are so fast that they almost seem to float. With each listen, I am more impressed by the DAVE than the day before and as I discover these subtle nuances, I realize I have only scratched the surface of appreciating @Rob Watts' work.

For those of you with the Utopia, I encourage you to find a fast piano recording and select the crossfeed 0 setting to experience the full potential of the DAVE, M Scaler, and Utopia. In a word, its _perfect. _


----------



## mbj666

NYanakiev said:


> @alxw0w thanks ever so much for the stand recommendation
> 
> Moved things around to use the WAVE STRATOS and not keep the two units too close.
> WAVE‘s STORM coming in soon- I will have the pleasure of comparing the two side by side.


where did you get this stand from please ?  thanks


----------



## Currawong

tunes said:


> Is there any consensus on what reasonably priced RCA interconnects to use for the DAVE with external amp for Susvara?


Depends what you call reasonable. The Moon Audio Silver Dragon is the minimum I'd go with.


edwardsean said:


> I saw this a few hours ago. Many, like Darko, feel the opposite way, so I thought he'd put it down more to preference. His clear statement of superiority surprised me


I reckon so. I've been playing with various combinations with the DAVE that I was kindly loaned by someone who is on a business trip ATM, and the mDAVE combo is, in a manner "too perfect" sometimes, it feels like.


Ciggavelli said:


> The Phoenix USB reclocker makes a noticeable improvement. The streamer is also good, but the improvement is more subtle. While I like the Innuos stuff, you can’t install your own ssds, and 2 Zenith mk3s broke on me.  So, I guess there’s that, but they’re still good products.


At this thought, I am trying the MScaler with BNC input from a Singxer SU-1 instead of USB. Something feels different about it.


iDesign said:


> I have consistently found that the DAVE, M Scaler, and Utopia combined provide the most accurate reproduction of the piano I have ever heard and far exceed the Orpheus HE-1 and Susvara.


I've settled on the Final D8000 Pro over the Utopia, as it seems at yet another level of detail, and I thought I had my speakers on when I began listening a couple of times, such was the feeling of a real soundstage from some recordings.


----------



## Triode User (Jun 30, 2021)

Currawong said:


> At this thought, I am trying the MScaler with BNC input from a Singxer SU-1 instead of USB. Something feels different about it.


I also now use BNC input to the Mscaler rather than USB and to me it sounds different in a good way.


----------



## jlbrach

muski said:


> I use the Innuos re-clocker between my OpticalRendu and M Scaler/DAVE.  A very significant improvement in my headphone rig, and even more noticeable in my Devialet Expert 1000 two-channel system.
> 
> There’s one short thread on it.
> 
> ...


as do I...I use the sonic transporter into the optical rendu and into the phoenix...lots of moving parts but so very worth the effort


----------



## muski

jlbrach said:


> as do I...I use the sonic transporter into the optical rendu and into the phoenix...lots of moving parts but so very worth the effort


Nice! I feel like the sonic transporter i9 to optical rendu gives the blackest of black backgrounds...


----------



## muski

Wondering if anyone has auditioned the Innuos PhoenixNET? As noticeable an improvement as the PhoenixUSB?


----------



## iDesign (Jun 30, 2021)

Currawong said:


> I've settled on the Final D8000 Pro over the Utopia, as it seems at yet another level of detail, and I thought I had my speakers on when I began listening a couple of times, such was the feeling of a real soundstage from some recordings.


I think the bigger realization is that we may not have a headphone, speaker, source, setting, etc today that can even translate the full capabilities of the DAVE and M Scaler into sound. I appreciate members like Romaz, Ray-Dude and others on Audiophile Style that are still turning over stones to figure out how to unlock the best performance from the DAVE and M Scaler. Thats how good they are-- years after their release we're still figuring it out. Rob Watts can go on a long vacation before he needs to develop anything new because the rest of us are still at the trailhead trying to find the tools we need to get to the summit.


----------



## Slim1970

iDesign said:


> I think the bigger realization is that we may not have a headphone, speaker, source, setting, etc today that can even translate the full capabilities of the DAVE and M Scaler into sound. I appreciate members like Romaz, Ray-Dude and others on Audiophile Style that are still turning over stones to figure out how to unlock the best performance from the DAVE and M Scaler. Thats how good they are-- years after their release we're still figuring it out. Rob Watts' can go on a long vacation before he needs to develop anything new because the rest of us are still at the trailhead.


The Dave is amazing. It has me rethinking my entire setup. I‘m having a problem with the drop off in sound quality when I have to use an external amp with my harder to drive headphones. I know it’s impossible to maintain the high levels of transparency by putting anything after the Dave, but I want to keep it close. So I’m exploring other headphone amps. What I’m finding amazing is the drop off in sound quality/transparency is so much more noticeable on the Dave than it ever was on the TT2.


----------



## Triode User

muski said:


> Wondering if anyone has auditioned the Innuos PhoenixNET? As noticeable an improvement as the PhoenixUSB?


I tried one in my system for a couple of weeks. I was comparing it to a Cisco switch as well as to an ER connected to the Cisco by fibre and with a LPS. My reference sound was how the system sounded when I pulled the ethernet plug from the back of my streamer when the music was playing. With the PhoenixNET there was no difference but with all other options there was a clearly audible difference.

So I bought and now use the PhoenixNET


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I have to hand it to Innuos. They have twice introduced ‘free’ software upgrades in the last 12 months that have improved the sound of my system. The latest improvements that come with the v2 operating system improve a sense of openness, wide frequency band, balanced, ultra clean, low noise, fantastic imaging and separation, big soundstage and overall weight and smoothness to images. It makes me wonder what Rob Watts could do with a ‘new filter’ update for the Dave. Hell I would even pay for it.


----------



## griff500

muski said:


> Wondering if anyone has auditioned the Innuos PhoenixNET? As noticeable an improvement as the PhoenixUSB?


I am using the PhoenixNET and it made a worthwhile difference, but I cannot compare with any improvements provided by PhoenixUSB as I haven't tried it. I am intrigued by it but I do have galvanic isolation in my Aries G2 and my M-Scaler, so I'm not sure it should provide much benefit. It's not something that's at the top of my list but I am intrigued by it and I have been impressed with Innuos as a brand based on the PhoenixNET's build quality.


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I have to hand it to Innuos. They have twice introduced ‘free’ software upgrades in the last 12 months that have improved the sound of my system. The latest improvements that come with the v2 operating system improve a sense of openness, wide frequency band, balanced, ultra clean, low noise, fantastic imaging and separation, big soundstage and overall weight and smoothness to images. It makes me wonder what Rob Watts could do with a ‘new filter’ update for the Dave. Hell I would even pay for it.


 Glad to see you have got the 2.0 on your Statement! I have been using it for a few weeks now and I am very impressed. What player software were you using before 2.0? Roon with experimental or the iPeng route?


----------



## DJJEZ (Jul 1, 2021)

Anyone had the pleasure of comparing a DAVE + Mscaler to a DCS bartok? Just purely for the dac not the headphone amps


----------



## alxw0w (Jul 1, 2021)

DJJEZ said:


> Anyone had the pleasure of comparing a DAVE + Mscaler to a DCS bartok?


Nope. But I'm willing to try. I'll probably contact dealer here in Poland to set up such listening session and compare. Dave and m scaler will be used with wave storm or opto dx.
I want to do it together with @Ragnar-BY but don't tell it him... 

I'm pretty sure about the conclusion of this comparison. The only thing that is taking my mind is that the Bartok is one box solution.


----------



## DJJEZ

alxw0w said:


> Nope. But I'm willing to try. I'll probably contact dealer here in Poland to set up such listening session and compare. Dave and m scaler will be used with wave storm or opto dx.
> I want to do it together with @Ragnar-BY but don't tell it him...
> 
> _*I'm pretty sure about the conclusion of this comparison*_. The only thing that is taking my mind is that the Bartok is one box solution.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Triode User said:


> Glad to see you have got the 2.0 on your Statement! I have been using it for a few weeks now and I am very impressed. What player software were you using before 2.0? Roon with experimental or the iPeng route?


I kept it simple with iPeng and Squeeze Ctrl


----------



## Gadget67

alxw0w said:


> Nope. But I'm willing to try. I'll probably contact dealer here in Poland to set up such listening session and compare. Dave and m scaler will be used with wave storm or opto dx.
> *I want to do it together with @Ragnar-BY but don't tell it him... *
> 
> I'm pretty sure about the conclusion of this comparison. The only thing that is taking my mind is that the Bartok is one box solution.


You do realize that @Ragnar-BY follows you…


----------



## alxw0w

Gadget67 said:


> You do realize that @Ragnar-BY follows you…


 Maybe he wont notice


----------



## Guarnerian (Jul 1, 2021)

DJJEZ said:


> Anyone had the pleasure of comparing a DAVE + Mscaler to a DCS bartok? Just purely for the dac not the headphone amps


Sorry for my poor English but I am Japanese.

I've my Dave for about a year and a half.  My audio life has changed to the highest ever.  Thanks a lot, Rob!  I compared Dave (sorry without HMS) with some equipments at Japanese famous audio shop.  The purpose is to test the DACs as a network audio device.  Below is some impressions.

- dCS Bartok
clear and pure like mountain spring water, but it feels a little inorganic.  sound image is slightly unclear and flatter.  well-behaved but not attractive.

- Esoteric N-01XD (network DAC)
very first case of using proprietary DAC with FPGA (like Chord's) at Esoteric.  improved depth and richness (I was using Esoteric K-01 before Dave). the direction of the sound is towards Dave, but without absolute quality and energy.  the network circuit may be pulling its feet.

- Soulnote S-3 (SA-CD Player of Japanese hi-end audio brand with NOS DAC)
lively young sounds, but lacks transparency and subtlety.  felt many distortions.

Deve and S-3 were connected to Esoteric N-03T network transport.  Using Accuphase Pre & Power Amp, B&W 800D3, hi-end cables.

Conclusion:  All three testers there (including me) liked Dave the most.  The differences were so obvious that rigorous testing was not required.  Network technology is very different from audio technology, so it's better not to mix them into one body at least at this stage.


            transient / depth / timbre
dCS Bartok --- b / c / a
Soulnote S3 --- a / c / c
Esoteric N-01XD --- a / b / b
Chord DAVE --- a / a / a


----------



## DJJEZ

Guarnerian said:


> Sorry for my poor English but I am Japanese.
> 
> I've my Dave for about a year and a half.  My audio life has changed to the highest ever.  Thanks a lot, Rob!  I compared Dave (sorry without HMS) with some equipments at Japanese famous audio shop.  The purpose is to test the DACs as a network audio device.  Below is some impressions.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply


----------



## Ragnar-BY (Jul 2, 2021)

A blessing and a curse to be friends with another audiophile. On the one hand, it is good to check and find out that the difference exists not only in your head. And it’s just nice to talk to someone who doesn’t think you’re crazy after finding out the price of the your headphones cable. On the other hand, sometimes he brings very expensive things to your home, and you realize that now you desperately need these too.

P.S. Call that dealer, I’m in 🤣


----------



## VladYR

Going to pick up the M Scaler right now. It finally arrived today.


----------



## griff500

VladYR said:


> Going to pick up the M Scaler right now. It finally arrived today.


Awesome, you're nearly at the end game!


----------



## edwardsean

griff500 said:


> Awesome, you're nearly at the end game!


… if only.


----------



## griff500

edwardsean said:


> … if only.


----------



## VladYR

griff500 said:


> Awesome, you're nearly at the end game!


Nearly at the end game… said no audiophile ever 😂🤣 I wish though. I still have a few things I want to add to this set up. An Innuous Zenith server and PhoenixUsb reclocker. This should be done by the year’s end. Innuos seems to have finally got their software and user interface where it should be. I’ve been using mostly Audirvana through the usb to the Linn streamer. The results are quite good but can always be improved.


----------



## griff500

VladYR said:


> Nearly at the end game… said no audiophile ever 😂🤣 I wish though. I still have a few things I want to add to this set up. An Innuous Zenith server and PhoenixUsb reclocker. This should be done by the year’s end. Innuos seems to have finally got their software and user interface where it should be. I’ve been using mostly Audirvana through the usb to the Linn streamer. The results are quite good but can always be improved.


In fairness, I did mean just the DAC end-game, and I said 'nearly' because there's always the Sean Jacobs DC4 that can be added to it...   

I've been very pleased with my Auralic Aries G2 but I'd certainly be considering the Innuos Zenith Mk3 if I was looking now.

The PhoenixUSB intrigues me (I have the PhoenixNET), but I'm not sure how much difference that would make to my G2 or the Zenith.


----------



## VladYR

griff500 said:


> In fairness, I did mean just the DAC end-game, and I said 'nearly' because there's always the Sean Jacobs DC4 that can be added to it...
> 
> I've been very pleased with my Auralic Aries G2 but I'd certainly be considering the Innuos Zenith Mk3 if I was looking now.
> 
> The PhoenixUSB intrigues me (I have the PhoenixNET), but I'm not sure how much difference that would make to my G2 or the Zenith.


Speaking of Sean Jacobs, he seems to be also doing the design work for Innuos in terms of power supplies.


----------



## griff500

VladYR said:


> Speaking of Sean Jacobs, he seems to be also doing the design work for Innuos in terms of power supplies.


One of the reasons I chose the PhoenixNET instead of the Ansuz.


----------



## Triode User

VladYR said:


> Speaking of Sean Jacobs, he seems to be also doing the design work for Innuos in terms of power supplies.


He doesn’t _seem_ to be doing it, he has done it for years and designs the power supplies for the whole Innuos range from the Zen Mini right up to the Statement. There can be few people who know as much as Sean does about designing power supplies for high end audio digital devices.


----------



## Sampajanna

Triode User said:


> He doesn’t _seem_ to be doing it, he has done it for years and designs the power supplies for the whole Innuos range from the Zen Mini right up to the Statement. There can be few people who know as much as Sean does about designing power supplies for high end audio digital devices.


Agreed! DC4 take Dave and Mscaler to the stratosphere... Also, Innuos 2.0 rocls. Not as functional as Roon/missing key features. But in terms of SQ it is a big step up.


----------



## AndrewOld

Triode User said:


> There can be few people who know as much as Sean does about designing power supplies for high end audio digital devices.


It is possible that @Rob Watts knows the odd thing about designing power supplies too. Especially for his own products. But then what do I know?


----------



## tunes

MacedonianHero said:


> Maintaining "sonic purity" would be to just use the DAVE as is. I only use the HPA4 or HSA-1b when more power is needed for the Abyss Phi TC, Susvara or obviously the SR1a.


HEKse vs D8000 pro direct from DAVE + M-scaler vs Susvara with DAVE + M-scaler + Speaker Amp ???


----------



## griff500

AndrewOld said:


> It is possible that @Rob Watts knows the odd thing about designing power supplies too. Especially for his own products. But then what do I know?


Doesn't he select a power supply rather than design it?


----------



## Triode User

Sampajanna said:


> Agreed! DC4 take Dave and Mscaler to the stratosphere... Also, Innuos 2.0 rocls. Not as functional as Roon/missing key features. But in terms of SQ it is a big step up.


Yes, I really like 2.0. In truth I do not need all the twiddly bits in Roon and I am not prepared to sacrifice sound quality just for a few twiddly bits.


----------



## sm60

AndrewOld said:


> It is possible that @Rob Watts knows the odd thing about designing power supplies too. Especially for his own products. But then what do I know?


My sentiments exactly. I’m not opposed to external DYI power supplies from external vendors. I put this add on in the same equivalence class as the Mod Squad folks who used to do aftermarket mods of various amps and CD players. The Sony SCD-1 for example attracted many such mods.

In all such cases you might like the modified sound, but it’s not what the original designer intended. The Dave modded with Sean Jacobs external power supply is technically  not a Chord sanctioned product. No warranty of any kind if something blows up. With an expensive DAC, I’d be wary of messing about too much. Change cables etc., but once you start messing with the innards, where does it stop? Why not change all the caps? The op amps? I get that audiophiles are constantly trying to improve the sound of their system. I would pay attention to the weakest links in any system, and that’s invariably the speakers or the room or the headphones. DAC’s of the caliber of Dave have S/N ratios near -130dB. Not sure how much of the supposed improvements are audible once you down to Brownian noise of the electrons over resistors, which is around -140dB. Meanwhile, most moving coil speakers have 5-10% distortion in  the bass and not much better in the midrange and treble. Rooms can produce +/- 12dB imbalances in the bass. I would focus on the higher order bits,


----------



## griff500 (Jul 3, 2021)

sm60 said:


> My sentiments exactly. I’m not opposed to external DYI power supplies from external vendors. I put this add on in the same equivalence class as the Mod Squad folks who used to do aftermarket mods of various amps and CD players. The Sony SCD-1 for example attracted many such mods.
> 
> In all such cases you might like the modified sound, but it’s not what the original designer intended. The Dave modded with Sean Jacobs external power supply is technically  not a Chord sanctioned product. No warranty of any kind if something blows up. With an expensive DAC, I’d be wary of messing about too much. Change cables etc., but once you start messing with the innards, where does it stop? Why not change all the caps? The op amps? I get that audiophiles are constantly trying to improve the sound of their system. I would pay attention to the weakest links in any system, and that’s invariably the speakers or the room or the headphones. DAC’s of the caliber of Dave have S/N ratios near -130dB. Not sure how much of the supposed improvements are audible once you down to Brownian noise of the electrons over resistors, which is around -140dB. Meanwhile, most moving coil speakers have 5-10% distortion in  the bass and not much better in the midrange and treble. Rooms can produce +/- 12dB imbalances in the bass. I would focus on the higher order bits,


I think you'll find the DC4 modification is usually done by people who have already got their speakers, etc, sorted.

I don't doubt for a moment that improved power can result in improved sound and all who have tried the DC4 seem to find the improvement to be rather significant. A better power supply, moved outside of the case containing the other electronics... it doesn't sound like a bad idea at all.

'Modifying' the sound seems like altering it - adding a flavour. My feeling is that improved power supplies simply allow the equipment to work better. I modified the internal power supply on my Auralic Aries G2 and it did make a difference.


----------



## AndrewOld

griff500 said:


> I think you'll find the DC4 modification is usually done by people who have already got their speakers, etc, sorted.


Really? I would have said you have entry level speakers.


----------



## griff500

AndrewOld said:


> Really? I would have said you have entry level speakers.


Strong trolling skills, somewhat let down by the fact that I wasn't talking about myself and I haven't got the DC4.


----------



## JohnA1

sm60 said:


> ... I would pay attention to the weakest links in any system, and that’s invariably the speakers or the room..


Speaker/listener placement
Once you get these *just* right, even a few mm of speaker location makes a difference for the worse.
Most people don't have this option due to WAF, but for singles or those with 'mancaves' that's where I'd expect the largest bang/buck


----------



## tunes

tunes said:


> HEKse vs D8000 pro direct from DAVE + M-scaler vs Susvara with DAVE + M-scaler + Speaker Amp ???


Rob often says that the best sound from DAVE is when the headphone out is direct without introducing an external amp.  I was wondering if this is true then why get either the Abyss Phi TC or Susvara that offer TOTL sound reproduction that then is degraded by needing amplification beyond DAVE direct?  So which of the following HPs driven directly from DAVE/M-Scaler  would beat the TC or Susvara unamped: 1: HEKse 2: D8000 Pro 3: ZMF Verite open or closed 4: Utopia?


----------



## mbj666

griff500 said:


> I think you'll find the DC4 modification is usually done by people who have already got their speakers, etc, sorted.
> 
> I don't doubt for a moment that improved power can result in improved sound and all who have tried the DC4 seem to find the improvement to be rather significant. A better power supply, moved outside of the case containing the other electronics... it doesn't sound like a bad idea at all.
> 
> 'Modifying' the sound seems like altering it - adding a flavour. My feeling is that improved power supplies simply allow the equipment to work better. I modified the internal power supply on my Auralic Aries G2 and it did make a difference.



agree above is what NAIM been doing for years and good off board power does make difference


----------



## Ragnar-BY

tunes said:


> 1: HEKse 2: D8000 Pro 3: ZMF Verite open or closed 4: Utopia?


Add T+A Solitaire P to this list 😉


----------



## VladYR

Ragnar-BY said:


> Add T+A Solitaire P to this list 😉


It actually works quite well with the Dave? From what I heard, it requires  a T+A amp to sound its best.


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## number1sixerfan (Jul 14, 2021)

tunes said:


> Rob often says that the best sound from DAVE is when the headphone out is direct without introducing an external amp.  I was wondering if this is true then why get either the Abyss Phi TC or Susvara that offer TOTL sound reproduction that then is degraded by needing amplification beyond DAVE direct?  So which of the following HPs driven directly from DAVE/M-Scaler  would beat the TC or Susvara unamped: 1: HEKse 2: D8000 Pro 3: ZMF Verite open or closed 4: Utopia?



This point/topic is really overstated imo. There is no audible degradation of sound by adding a very high quality, transparent amp between the Dave and sensitive headphones. I've had the Utopia, VC and ATH-L3000, all easy to drive headphones and I preferred each marginally out of the WA33, behind the Dave. Now, the WA33 is about as transparent of a tube amp that you can get, and obviously any major component can impact the sound, but imo again the purity of sound argument is just overstated. That said, each were also really good straight out of the Dave. The Utopia had the best synergy with the Dave and even still, sounded a bit better with the WA33, of which it's also known to pair really well with. Last point here... as you mention, all of the generally agreed upon best headphones require an external amp. Certainly I wouldn't own a $7k-$10k DAC and exclude myself from the possibility of hearing/owning the absolute best headphones.

If you're a purist and want to be able to say you're listening to the most transparent sound possible, that I do get. But in the real world, I just don't find it relevant and certainly not enough to handicap my headphone system by just owning the Dave (unless saving money was the goal). Again, with a very high quality and mainly transparent amp.


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## Ragnar-BY (Jul 4, 2021)

VladYR said:


> It actually works quite well with the Dave?


Works good. With external amp Solitaire P have warmer and somewhat more forgiving tonality, but I prefer clarity and transparency of DAVE.


----------



## ufospls2

number1sixerfan said:


> This point/topic is really overstated imo. There is no audible degradation of sound by adding a very high quality, transparent amp between the Dave and sensitive headphones. I've had the Utopia, VC and ATH-L3000, all easy to drive headphones and I preferred each marginally out of the WA33, behind the Dave. Now, the WA33 is about as transparent of a tube amp that you can get, and obviously any major component can impact the sound, but imo again the purity of sound argument is just overstated. That said, each was also really good straight out of the Dave. The Utopia had the best synergy with the Dave and even still, sounded a bit better with the WA33, of which it's also known to pair really well with. Last point here... as you mention, all of the generally agreed upon best headphones require an external amp. Certainly I wouldn't own a $7k-$10k DAC and exclude myself from the possibility of hearing/owning the absolute best headphones.
> 
> If you're a purist and want to be able to say you're listening to the most transparent sound possible, that I do get. But in the real world, I just don't find it relevant and certainly not enough to handicap my headphone system by just owning the Dave (unless saving money was the goal). Again, with a very high quality and mainly transparent amp.



Agreed 100%. Incredibly overstated. I fell into that trap when I owned a DAVE. For my personal preferences, DAVE+Amp with Susvara or AB1266TC smokes the other mentioned headphones with dave direct. I can be told "oh you're just enjoying the sound of distortion" till the cows come home. Don't care. Even for easy to drive headphones, sometimes an amp would be preferable vs DAVE direct. Totally depends on the listeners preferences, the headphones in question, and the budget available.


----------



## Glossator

ufospls2 said:


> Agreed 100%. Incredibly overstated. I fell into that trap when I owned a DAVE. For my personal preferences, DAVE+Amp with Susvara or AB1266TC smokes the other mentioned headphones with dave direct. I can be told "oh you're just enjoying the sound of distortion" till the cows come home. Don't care. Even for easy to drive headphones, sometimes an amp would be preferable vs DAVE direct. Totally depends on the listeners preferences, the headphones in question, and the budget available.


I have not tried an external amp - and I suspect this is very personal.   However, I have experimented with headphone cables on Utopia (because the clean source approach appealed to me).    The differences are readily detectable.   So if a single wire can make a difference, I can imagine that an amplifier will too … (and I would expect more so).


----------



## ufospls2

Glossator said:


> I have not tried an external amp - and I suspect this is very personal.   However, I have experimented with headphone cables on Utopia (because the clean source approach appealed to me).    The differences are readily detectable.   So if a single wire can make a difference, I can imagine that an amplifier will too … (and I would expect more so).



Utopia+DAVE direct is one of the better direct from DAVE combos I think. I just happen to personally not be a _huge_ Utopia fan vs the other Flagships  You are right, very much personal preference.


----------



## edwardsean

ufospls2 said:


> Agreed 100%. Incredibly overstated. I fell into that trap when I owned a DAVE. For my personal preferences, DAVE+Amp with Susvara or AB1266TC smokes the other mentioned headphones with dave direct. I can be told "oh you're just enjoying the sound of distortion" till the cows come home. Don't care. Even for easy to drive headphones, sometimes an amp would be preferable vs DAVE direct. Totally depends on the listeners preferences, the headphones in question, and the budget available.


By this time, I think we're beyond the "either/or" and have a fuller understanding. 

The most pristine sound will come from Dave's direct outputs. You are gaining some distortion with an amp, even the best amps. One of Dave's signature strengths is a headphone plugged directly into the headphone out which taps directly in the D/A pulse array. A top-tier headphone suited to Dave's native output will not only give you the most transparent signal from Dave, but to some ears, the most transparent signal anywhere. 

And, at the same time:

Definitely, if you add an amp, you are not "just enjoying the sound of added distortion." There is a level of performance, dynamics, soundstage, etc. that are transformative over Dave's stock headphone out. Also, the AB1266 and Susvara provide some singular listening experiences with a high caliber amp. I think it would be a shame to cross them off on principle without hearing some combinations firsthand.

Dave purists are keeping something that amp-users are giving up, and amp-users are gaining something over purists (depending on the phone). The choice of a transducer, phone or speaker, has the final say in shaping the sound of the entire chain. It's worth taking a step back and considering the whole picture, and find a place where you can audition different setups if you can. The investment of time and energy would be worth it in my opinion.


----------



## ufospls2

edwardsean said:


> By this time, I think we're beyond the "either/or" and have a fuller understanding.
> 
> The most pristine sound will come from Dave's direct outputs. You are gaining some distortion with an amp, even the best amps. One of Dave's signature strengths is a headphone plugged directly into the headphone out which taps directly in the D/A pulse array. A top-tier headphone suited to Dave's native output will not only give you the most transparent signal from Dave, but to some ears, the most transparent signal anywhere.
> 
> ...



Very well, and eloquently put. Totally agreed.


----------



## number1sixerfan

edwardsean said:


> By this time, I think we're beyond the "either/or" and have a fuller understanding.
> 
> The most pristine sound will come from Dave's direct outputs. You are gaining some distortion with an amp, even the best amps. One of Dave's signature strengths is a headphone plugged directly into the headphone out which taps directly in the D/A pulse array. A top-tier headphone suited to Dave's native output will not only give you the most transparent signal from Dave, but to some ears, the most transparent signal anywhere.
> 
> ...



Could not have stated this any better. Almost edited my original post to add that it's a tradeoff framework, but you covered my additional thoughts exactly and as mentioned, eloquently.


----------



## jlbrach

If I am listening to a utopia I would and have listened straight out of the Dave…with a susvara or abyss tc one needs a high quality amp and although obviously there is some issue introducing an amp the advantages of a high quality amp overcome the issues IMHO


----------



## Sampajanna

Triode User said:


> Yes, I really like 2.0. In truth I do not need all the twiddly bits in Roon and I am not prepared to sacrifice sound quality just for a few twiddly bits.


Haha. I agree SQ is more important, but i also appreciate reading about new artists or albums, being able to share albums with buddies at the push of a button and other twiddles...


----------



## Sampajanna

griff500 said:


> Doesn't he select a power supply rather than design it?





sm60 said:


> My sentiments exactly. I’m not opposed to external DYI power supplies from external vendors. I put this add on in the same equivalence class as the Mod Squad folks who used to do aftermarket mods of various amps and CD players. The Sony SCD-1 for example attracted many such mods.
> 
> In all such cases you might like the modified sound, but it’s not what the original designer intended. The Dave modded with Sean Jacobs external power supply is technically  not a Chord sanctioned product. No warranty of any kind if something blows up. With an expensive DAC, I’d be wary of messing about too much. Change cables etc., but once you start messing with the innards, where does it stop? Why not change all the caps? The op amps? I get that audiophiles are constantly trying to improve the sound of their system. I would pay attention to the weakest links in any system, and that’s invariably the speakers or the room or the headphones. DAC’s of the caliber of Dave have S/N ratios near -130dB. Not sure how much of the supposed improvements are audible once you down to Brownian noise of the electrons over resistors, which is around -140dB. Meanwhile, most moving coil speakers have 5-10% distortion in  the bass and not much better in the midrange and treble. Rooms can produce +/- 12dB imbalances in the bass. I would focus on the higher order bits,


Don't know how many times this needs to be hashed and why people always have so strong of opinions about things they have never heard. The DC4 does not change the Dave's sound. I had the Dave for years before I got the DC4. I know its sound well. And the swap is minor, takes ten minutes and my warranty was already void. I could also put the original back just as easily, and even did one time just to verify what my ears were hearing. Whatever you like about the Dave is better with better power.. Dacs are sensitive to power. I used to be a bit skeptical of power cables til I swapped a few on the Dave. The difference was not small. The power cable made a huge difference. That got me thinking that if the power cable makes such a big difference, wouldn't Sean's DC4 do even more so I gave it a try. I was blown away. Aside from getting new speakers, it is amongst the biggest upgrades I have experienced full stop. It is not a distortion, coloration or shift in tone, nor is it subtle "golden ear" territory. That's all I can say. Try it and you will keep it. I have no doubt that any Dave owner would keep it....


----------



## Sampajanna

PS you can verify this without the DC4; just swap power cables listening to tracks you know and trying a few grades/levels of power cable. Whatever you experience there, multiple by 10X or more and you are at the DC4!


----------



## genefruit

Sampajanna said:


> Don't know how many times this needs to be hashed and why people always have so strong of opinions about things they have never heard. The DC4 does not change the Dave's sound. I had the Dave for years before I got the DC4. I know its sound well. And the swap is minor, takes ten minutes and my warranty was already void. I could also put the original back just as easily, and even did one time just to verify what my ears were hearing. Whatever you like about the Dave is better with better power.. Dacs are sensitive to power. I used to be a bit skeptical of power cables til I swapped a few on the Dave. The difference was not small. The power cable made a huge difference. That got me thinking that if the power cable makes such a big difference, wouldn't Sean's DC4 do even more so I gave it a try. I was blown away. Aside from getting new speakers, it is amongst the biggest upgrades I have experienced full stop. It is not a distortion, coloration or shift in tone, nor is it subtle "golden ear" territory. That's all I can say. Try it and you will keep it. I have no doubt that any Dave owner would keep it....


After you moved to the DC4, did you try different power cables and if so, did they still make a huge difference?


----------



## griff500

Sampajanna said:


> Dacs are sensitive to power. I used to be a bit skeptical of power cables til I swapped a few on the Dave. The difference was not small. The power cable made a huge difference.


I'm not sure about other DACs but the DAVE is definitely very sensitive to power and I was also surprised at how much difference changing the power cable (and adding a distributor) made to the DAVE. One of these days I suspect I'll try the DC4.


----------



## Sampajanna

Exactly. Do you use stock power cables with your products? Is switching the included cable moving away from the “design”?


----------



## Sampajanna

genefruit said:


> After you moved to the DC4, did you try different power cables and if so, did they still make a huge difference?


i did. just switched ones I had. I hv a shunyata loom. I switched alpha and sigma on the DC4 and difference was much much slighter than before DC4, borderline golden ear territory. What did result in a significant upgrade was the Everest 8000 with XC cable and using grounding cables from my 2 DC4 to the Everest….


----------



## Sampajanna

Everest is no joking matter…. Highly recommended!


----------



## Sampajanna

I would rank my backend upgrades thus:

1) 2 DC4
2) Everest
3) Omega usb (unbelievable!)
4) wavestorm cables (close to omega)


----------



## MarkusBarkus

@Sampajanna are you using Omega directly into Dave? I cannot recall if you are using PGGB upsampling and/or by-passing Amanero workflow.

BTW: I do not have Everest (I use PI Audio product) but agree on the other three bullet points...


----------



## Sampajanna

MarkusBarkus said:


> @Sampajanna are you using Omega directly into Dave? I cannot recall if you are using PGGB upsampling and/or by-passing Amanero workflow.
> 
> BTW: I do not have Everest (I use PI Audio product) but agree on the other three bullet points...


I use mscaler. The pggb is no good for me. I’m exploratory too much and stream a lot… i like riding the streaming service waves to new and old places. It’s why I moved away from vinyl as well—too much joy in the drifting ride….


----------



## Sampajanna (Jul 5, 2021)

BUt I cannot recommend Everest enough. It did magic for my amps as well. Epic. give it a spin if u can. Like the DC4 I am confident anyone who tries Everest will keep it…. But XC cable is a must unfortunately. They should really sell them together imho. Not the same without it.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

Sampajanna said:


> I would rank my backend upgrades thus:
> 
> 1) 2 DC4
> 2) Everest
> ...


All of these are very expensive things. Am I right that only Wave Storm (cheapest in this list 🤣) is sold on "full refund if you don't like it" basis?


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...probably true @Ragnar-BY unless you can arrange a demo version. This lack of demos is an issue in this hobby.


----------



## Sampajanna

Ragnar-BY said:


> All of these are very expensive things. Am I right that only Wave Storm (cheapest in this list 🤣) is sold on "full refund if you don't like it" basis?


Not sure. Some cable companies allow trials, so you could try the Omega at least. I agree that one needs to visit shows or dealers and listen to stuff. One of the benefits of having a friendly local dealer is service. You pay more for stuff than buying online, but they help you set it up (if you need that/I don't) offer easier service or repairs, but most of all they will let you try and play in their showrooms, which is super helpful. I first heard the Everest this way, swapping it in and out....

Budget is always a factor in every system of course. One has to work within a budget, no doubt. I believe shunyata has other power conditioners and have heard good things about the Audioquest ones as well. I have heard one but it was a part of a whole system and no A/Bing allowed....


----------



## Ragnar-BY

I do think that cables and power matter, but at this price level I prefer to deal with manufactures who are confident enough in their products to offer money-back.


----------



## griff500

Ragnar-BY said:


> All of these are very expensive things. Am I right that only Wave Storm (cheapest in this list 🤣) is sold on "full refund if you don't like it" basis?


It would be nice to try a DC4 in this way but I believe they are built to order and I guess the assembly part of it makes this less of an option than products that are simply plug and play. People do seem to be very happy with them.


----------



## DJJEZ

What power cable is everyone using with DAVE?


----------



## MatW

DJJEZ said:


> What power cable is everyone using with DAVE?


What it came with.


----------



## griff500

DJJEZ said:


> What power cable is everyone using with DAVE?


I'm currently using a Sablon Audio Prince power cable. I was using an Ansuz C2 but fancied trying the Sablon Audio Prince after being impressed with his USB cable and, in particular, his ethernet cable (this made a surprising and very noticeable difference). 

If you wait a very short time there will be someone along to tell you that it makes no difference whatsoever.


----------



## sm60

mbj666 said:


> agree above is what NAIM been doing for years and good off board power does make difference


NAIM has become more of a cult. When a company starts to peddle solid state amplifiers and preamplifiers that cost in the neighborhood of 100 grand, I write them off. Their external power supplies now cost nearly 10 grand. Oh, you really need two of these for their high end streamer. I’m waiting for the next model that requires four external power supplies.

it reminds me of the classic Polish joke about Russian technology. A man wearing the latest Russian high tech watch and carrying two large heavy suitcases was strolling across the square in Warsaw when someone asked him the time. He gave the time and the weather and so on. The passerby was impressed and asked him who made the watch. He said it was Russian, and worked great, but the batteries were a bit heavy (referring to the two suitcases).


----------



## mammal

sm60 said:


> NAIM has become more of a cult. When a company starts to peddle solid state amplifiers and preamplifiers that cost in the neighborhood of 100 grand, I write them off. Their external power supplies now cost nearly 10 grand. Oh, you really need two of these for their high end streamer. I’m waiting for the next model that requires four external power supplies.


There is this other forum (I am part of) where folks have a DAC with a master clock, that has a reference clock which has another clock


----------



## Triode User

MatW said:


> What it came with.



Yeah, me too.

But I use that original ‘kettle‘ cable to power my Sean Jacobs DC4. 😜🤪🤣

By the way, a friend came round on Sunday to listen to my Qutest and just for fun we tried powering it with a DC4. That is insane because the Dc4 costs three times what the Qutest costs but then my friends grin when he heard the DC4 Qutest was an ear to ear full on grin of pleasure. I really really rate the Qutest.


----------



## griff500

Triode User said:


> Yeah, me too.
> 
> But I use that original ‘kettle‘ cable to power my Sean Jacobs DC4. 😜🤪🤣
> 
> By the way, a friend came round on Sunday to listen to my Qutest and just for fun we tried powering it with a DC4. That is insane because the Dc4 costs three times what the Qutest costs but then my friends grin when he heard the DC4 Qutest was an ear to ear full on grin of pleasure. I really really rate the Qutest.


You know it's not really a kettle lead though, right? Different IEC... 

I heard a Qutest compared to a TT2, both used purely as DACs, and I was surprised by how good the Qutest is. It's a great little DAC. 

I'd have loved to see a picture of the Qutest next to the DC4 in a post pretending to have just upgraded the power supply for the Qutest. The internet would break...


----------



## sm60

MatW said:


> What it came with.


Ditto. When folks start to claim that they can tell the difference between power chords, USB cables, Ethernet cables and so on, I tune out.  Never mind the power to your outlet has traveled many hundreds or thousands of miles from the generating station, or that Qobuz’s cloud servers feeding you the bits may be in another continent and transmitting the data over undersea data cables over 5000 miles.

We take the internet for granted, but it is  absolutely bullet proof technology built on robust network protocols and error correction. Your tweaks are enriching small businesses, and there’s no harm in any of these tweaks except your wallet. I’m not denying that cables or good power conditioners can make a difference, but it does feel like things get taken to an extreme. I’m waiting for the first audiophile company to start marketing pure cryogenically treated  air that makes the sound travel from your speakers to your eardrums so much better. Or eardrum rinsers that clean out your ear canal — this could make a difference. What I would really like is to have my dog’s hearing so I can listen to sounds at 50-60khz. Boy, then these DSD 512 mastered recordings will really start to sound great! 😀


----------



## endless402

DJJEZ said:


> What power cable is everyone using with DAVE?



acrolink 8n-pc8100. it's the only one that gave it the speed and musicality that I was looking for in comparison to stock and furutech powerflux NCF. Not that the other power cords were bad, but for me that extra speed and attack on each note was preferable. 

my friend with a DAVE uses a nordost valhalla


----------



## griff500

How about not turning the thread into the usual cable debate as it tends to wreck threads. There are points to counter all the comments you have made @sm60 , but this isn't the place for it and nobody has their opinions changed in these debates anyway.

If you don't believe it makes a difference then that's fine but nobody asked if it makes a difference - the poster simply asked what power cables people are using.


----------



## Triode User

griff500 said:


> You know it's not really a kettle lead though, right? Different IEC...
> 
> I heard a Qutest compared to a TT2, both used purely as DACs, and I was surprised by how good the Qutest is. It's a great little DAC.
> 
> I'd have loved to see a picture of the Qutest next to the DC4 in a post pretending to have just upgraded the power supply for the Qutest. The internet would break...


Well, for the moment I am still using the DC4 to power the Qutest so if I remember tomorrow I will take a picture of them together before reuniting it with the Dave.


----------



## number1sixerfan

DJJEZ said:


> What power cable is everyone using with DAVE?



I use a combination of decently affordable power cords and interconnects by Moon Audio, Cardas, Mogami, etc ($150 - $400 range). I tend to just want something I know is high quality built by a solid, reputable brand. I went the super expensive cable route years ago and didn't find much value. From an ROI standpoint, $1-4k+ put into cables can easily be put into amp/dac/headphone upgrades that will easily provide more ROI/value without question, that's the single thing that makes it harder for me. But once I pair down my headphones and settle on final amps, I'll look to revisit.


----------



## muski

DJJEZ said:


> What power cable is everyone using with DAVE?


I’m using the Audioquest NRG-Z3 in combination with an Audioquest Niagara 1200 power conditioner. The two together made a substantial improvement. I suspect the Niagara is having more of an impact, but can’t say definitively—I failed to correctly apply the scientific method and changed both at once


----------



## alxw0w

muski said:


> I’m using the Audioquest NRG-Z3 in combination with an Audioquest Niagara 1200 power


As I understand Dave is connected to Niagara with NRG Z3, but what about cable from Niagara to wall ? Any particular one or just default "black computer cable" ?


----------



## stemiki

I am waiting to receive M Scaler. I was wondering, since all the electronics in my setup have switching power supplies, if it would make sense to add shielded power cables or power conditioners. I saw for example that for HPA4 John Siau does not recommend changing cables because it would be useless. Indeed he told me that switching power supplies are superior to linear power supplies because they produce much less EMI / RFI disturbances and are also much less noisy. It seems to me that Rob Watts also advises against changing DAVE's internal power supply. But then maybe it's not better to have all switching power supplies?


----------



## Lgn3

griff500 said:


> How about not turning the thread into the usual cable debate as it tends to wreck threads. There are points to counter all the comments you have made @sm60 , but this isn't the place for it and nobody has their opinions changed in these debates anyway.
> 
> If you don't believe it makes a difference then that's fine but nobody asked if it makes a difference - the poster simply asked what power cables people are using.


Just about everyone who has replied to the original question has  made claims regarding the difference their choice of power cable has made  ( or the manufacturer of their power cables ethernet cable so by implication the power cable ).


----------



## VladYR

DJJEZ said:


> What power cable is everyone using with DAVE?


Nordost Frey 2


----------



## VladYR

stemiki said:


> I am waiting to receive M Scaler. I was wondering, since all the electronics in my setup have switching power supplies, if it would make sense to add shielded power cables or power conditioners. I saw for example that for HPA4 John Siau does not recommend changing cables because it would be useless. Indeed he told me that switching power supplies are superior to linear power supplies because they produce much less EMI / RFI disturbances and are also much less noisy. It seems to me that Rob Watts also advises against changing DAVE's internal power supply. But then maybe it's not better to have all switching power supplies?


I use both within my system and it makes a pleasant and audibly noticeable difference. Whether that difference is worth around $8000 is a tough call 🤣😂😄


----------



## mbj666

sm60 said:


> NAIM has become more of a cult. When a company starts to peddle solid state amplifiers and preamplifiers that cost in the neighborhood of 100 grand, I write them off. Their external power supplies now cost nearly 10 grand. Oh, you really need two of these for their high end streamer. I’m waiting for the next model that requires four external power supplies.
> 
> it reminds me of the classic Polish joke about Russian technology. A man wearing the latest Russian high tech watch and carrying two large heavy suitcases was strolling across the square in Warsaw when someone asked him the time. He gave the time and the weather and so on. The passerby was impressed and asked him who made the watch. He said it was Russian, and worked great, but the batteries were a bit heavy (referring to the two suitcases).


Can only comment on what I hear and good power makes a difference beit Sean Jacobs ps, naim ps units, dedicated mains circuit, etc tried this on arcam, naim, innuos, chord, hifi kit all responded to decent power supply.


----------



## griff500

Lgn3 said:


> Just about everyone who has replied to the original question has  made claims regarding the difference their choice of power cable has made  ( or the manufacturer of their power cables ethernet cable so by implication the power cable ).


Indeed, but they are answering the question that was asked.


----------



## mbj666

Power chord wise tried plenty mcru no.75, chord sarum, audioquest hurricane, naim powerline, etc.  Found they give marginal gains. Like chord sarum on dave and the audioquest hurricane feeding my mains block


----------



## VladYR

sm60 said:


> NAIM has become more of a cult. When a company starts to peddle solid state amplifiers and preamplifiers that cost in the neighborhood of 100 grand, I write them off. Their external power supplies now cost nearly 10 grand. Oh, you really need two of these for their high end streamer. I’m waiting for the next model that requires four external power supplies.
> 
> it reminds me of the classic Polish joke about Russian technology. A man wearing the latest Russian high tech watch and carrying two large heavy suitcases was strolling across the square in Warsaw when someone asked him the time. He gave the time and the weather and so on. The passerby was impressed and asked him who made the watch. He said it was Russian, and worked great, but the batteries were a bit heavy (referring to the two suitcases).


Fortunately, Naim isn’t the only manufacturer of high end streamers. While it makes great streamers and I owned a couple until recently, I generally prefer Linn with its considerably more light and transparent image.

p.s

If you don’t want to have multiple top end boxes, just get a new Linn Klimax for a bit more than the Naim ND 555. Personally, I think it sounds and looks much better anyway.


----------



## griff500

VladYR said:


> Whether that difference is worth around $8000 is a tough call


Tell most people what you've spent on a DAC and they'll think you're crazy, if they even know what a DAC is. Or tell them what your headphones cost and wait for the laughter to end. Whether something is 'worth it' is a question only one person can answer, the same as many other things in life.

I told one of my friend's what my system cost when he asked. He thought I was crazy. Then I told him the retail of one power cable for a laugh and he said something I cannot repeat here. Then again, we used to go to the pubs for a drink and now he always want to have a drink at mine listening to music all evening.


----------



## VladYR

griff500 said:


> Tell most people what you've spent on a DAC and they'll think you're crazy, if they even know what a DAC is. Or tell them what your headphones cost and wait for the laughter to end. Whether something is 'worth it' is a question only one person can answer, the same as many other things in life.
> 
> I told one of my friend's what my system cost when he asked. He thought I was crazy. Then I told him the retail of one power cable for a laugh and he said something I cannot repeat here. Then again, we used to go to the pubs for a drink and now he always want to have a drink at mine listening to music all evening.


I know what you mean. The value of my setup is quickly approaching $40,000 and it’s powering only a single pair of headphones. A dealer where I usually shop is getting a pair of Utopia and Stellia so I might end up buying one of those at some point.


----------



## griff500

VladYR said:


> I know what you mean. The value of my setup is quickly approaching $40,000 and it’s powering only a single pair of headphones. A dealer where I usually shop is getting a pair of Utopia and Stellia so I might end up buying one of those at some point.


Stellia are great, and they even sound good straight off the laptop when needed. Amazing headphones.


----------



## muski (Jul 5, 2021)

alxw0w said:


> As I understand Dave is connected to Niagara with NRG Z3, but what about cable from Niagara to wall ? Any particular one or just default "black computer cable" ?


Niagara to the wall is also a (2m) NRG Z3…

(FYI the Niagara doesn’t come with a power cord)


----------



## Ragnar-BY

Quite big difference was when I changed all my "normal power cables" to DIY cables made out of Belden 19364 cable and cheapest Wattgate plugs. Since then I have tried some expensive cords. Some was easily noticeable, some not, but I strongly recommend Belden 19364 - excellent price/performance/common sense ratio.


----------



## jacc

Thought the "default" power cord were HFC which use magnetic technology. Not sure if it is still the case though


----------



## Sampajanna

Buddy told me cableco in the US offers try before u buy. Not sure if that is true, but may help some of u if so!


----------



## MarkusBarkus

Sampajanna said:


> Buddy told me cableco in the US offers try before u buy. Not sure if that is true, but may help some of u if so!


Yes, The Cable Company and Music Direct have return policies that allow for testing at home, but you need to read the policy details as it may involve restocking fees or credit against future purchases.


----------



## tunes

jlbrach said:


> If I am listening to a utopia I would and have listened straight out of the Dave…with a susvara or abyss tc one needs a high quality amp and although obviously there is some issue introducing an amp the advantages of a high quality amp overcome the issues IMHO





jlbrach said:


> If I am listening to a utopia I would and have listened straight out of the Dave…with a susvara or abyss tc one needs a high quality amp and although obviously there is some issue introducing an amp the advantages of a high quality amp overcome the issues IMHO


So can someone articulate what you hear differently with Susvara direct from DAVE vs say Susvara with DAVE plus Bakoon?  Is the shimmer, decay, microdetail, expanse of sound stage, instrument separation and layering seem in any way compromised by adding the Bakoon?  Would you consider the Bakoon to be a transparent amp?


----------



## tunes

griff500 said:


> Stellia are great, and they even sound good straight off the laptop when needed. Amazing headphones.


Has anyone compared the Susvara DAVE + Bakoon to the Final Audio D8000 pro direct from DAVE?


----------



## VladYR

Sampajanna said:


> Buddy told me cableco in the US offers try before u buy. Not sure if that is true, but may help some of u if so!


Cableco charges either 5 or 10% of the retail price to borrow something, which can be applied towards the purchase if one decides to keep the item. It’s a bit pricy if you are testing out some truly premium cables over let’s say 2k.


----------



## jlbrach

tunes said:


> So can someone articulate what you hear differently with Susvara direct from DAVE vs say Susvara with DAVE plus Bakoon?  Is the shimmer, decay, microdetail, expanse of sound stage, instrument separation and layering seem in any way compromised by adding the Bakoon?  Would you consider the Bakoon to be a transparent amp?


very transparent...great detail and bass and bigger soundstage


----------



## tunes

Thanks


----------



## tunes

Thanks
So nothing really lost and all to gain with amp!!!


----------



## DJJEZ

Finally got a DAVE for home demo for a few weeks and all I can say is WOW. It's everything they say it is. Will report back in a few days/weeks of my impressions compared to the TT2


----------



## griff500

DJJEZ said:


> Finally got a DAVE for home demo for a few weeks and all I can say is WOW. It's everything they say it is. Will report back in a few days/weeks of my impressions compared to the TT2


I look forward to your "TT2 for sale" thread.


----------



## Slim1970

griff500 said:


> I look forward to your "TT2 for sale" thread.


Haha, no kidding! The TT2 is so much better. I wasn't expecting to hear such a big sound disparity between the two. The moment I fired up the Dave I knew it was the better DAC.


----------



## DJJEZ

DAVE owners. Are you using DAC mode or pre mode?


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jul 9, 2021)

DJJEZ said:


> DAVE owners. Are you using DAC mode or pre mode?


Pre amp mode because Woo Audio claims if you are in dac mode, it could overdrive the wa33. That never happened to me personally, but to be safe I keep it in preamp mode at -6 db.

Pre amp mode and dac mode are the same thing, just in preamp mode you can adjust the volume. There is no benefit from using one over the other. It’s the same sound quality.


----------



## DJJEZ

Ciggavelli said:


> Pre amp mode because Woo Audio claims if you are in dac mode, it could overdrive my wa33. That never happened to me personally, but to be safe I keep it in preamp mode at -6 db.
> 
> Pre amp mode and dac mode are the same thing, just in preamp mode you can adjust the volume. There is no benefit from using one or the other. It’s the same sound quality.


Thanks for the reply. I just remembered a review saying they preferred pre amp mode. Think it was pursuit a perfect systems review so just wanted to make sure. Thanks dude


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jul 9, 2021)

DJJEZ said:


> Thanks for the reply. I just remembered a review saying they preferred pre amp mode. Think it was pursuit a perfect systems review so just wanted to make sure. Thanks dude


Here’s what I found Rob saying earlier in this thread




Rob Watts said:


> Just to confirm, DAC mode is absolutely no difference in the signal path at all; it's just the control function that is changed, in that the volume is set to -3dB and volume change is disabled.


----------



## DJJEZ

Ciggavelli said:


> Here’s what I found Rob saying earlier in this thread


Thanks man


----------



## sm60

Ciggavelli said:


> Here’s what I found Rob saying earlier in this thread


The problem with using a DAC to control volume is the manner in which it is done. The  usual digital volume control technique of throwing bits away has definite audible consequences. Years ago when I owned the much acclaimed dCS Elgar, which has a convenient volume control, I found it produced a pure sound, but completely lacked dynamics compared to a state of the art solid state or tube preamp. Since then I’ve run this test on every DAC I’ve owned that had a volume control, and found exactly the same result. I use my Dave in both DAC mode, when I use my ARC Ref tube preamp, and in preamp mode when I run it straight into a power amp. I can tolerate preamp mode, but it’s like the difference between Folgers light coffee from a can vs my high end Jura cappuccino coffee from grinding the beans as you  make the coffee. Once you’ve tasted coffee from a machine of the caliber of Jura, there’s no going back.


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jul 9, 2021)

sm60 said:


> The problem with using a DAC to control volume is the manner in which it is done. The  usual digital volume control technique of throwing bits away has definite audible consequences. Years ago when I owned the much acclaimed dCS Elgar, which has a convenient volume control, I found it produced a pure sound, but completely lacked dynamics compared to a state of the art solid state or tube preamp. Since then I’ve run this test on every DAC I’ve owned that had a volume control, and found exactly the same result. I use my Dave in both DAC mode, when I use my ARC Ref tube preamp, and in preamp mode when I run it straight into a power amp. I can tolerate preamp mode, but it’s like the difference between Folgers light coffee from a can vs my high end Jura cappuccino coffee from grinding the beans as you  make the coffee. Once you’ve tasted coffee from a machine of the caliber of Jura, there’s no going back.


I haven’t noticed a difference really. I like the idea of dac mode better, but Woo Audio appears to think the DAVE dac mode at -3db could hurt my WA33. It never did before, but out of an abundance of caution, I keep it at -6db. I then control the volume on my wa33 to get to the volume level I want.

I previously had a JotR for my SR1as, and I could definitely hear a difference with changing the volume on the preamp. I could get much higher bass response with preamp mode, but that led to clipping.

So, I hear what you’re saying. Luckily, I haven’t noticed a decrease in sound quality by keeping my DAVE at -6db versus dac mode at -3db


----------



## TDinCali

DJJEZ said:


> Finally got a DAVE for home demo for a few weeks and all I can say is WOW. It's everything they say it is. Will report back in a few days/weeks of my impressions compared to the TT2


NO!!!!! I almost don’t want to hear this……


----------



## DJJEZ

TDinCali said:


> NO!!!!! I almost don’t want to hear this……


I want to hear the holo may KTE you've got incoming as well


----------



## MatW

DJJEZ said:


> DAVE owners. Are you using DAC mode or pre mode?


DAC mode, with the Formula S.


----------



## Articnoise

sm60 said:


> The problem with using a DAC to control volume is the manner in which it is done. The  usual digital volume control technique of throwing bits away has definite audible consequences. Years ago when I owned the much acclaimed dCS Elgar, which has a convenient volume control, I found it produced a pure sound, but completely lacked dynamics compared to a state of the art solid state or tube preamp. Since then I’ve run this test on every DAC I’ve owned that had a volume control, and found exactly the same result. I use my Dave in both DAC mode, when I use my ARC Ref tube preamp, and in preamp mode when I run it straight into a power amp. I can tolerate preamp mode, but it’s like the difference between Folgers light coffee from a can vs my high end Jura cappuccino coffee from grinding the beans as you  make the coffee. Once you’ve tasted coffee from a machine of the caliber of Jura, there’s no going back.


Yes I also prefer the sound of TT2 in DAC mode vs amp mode. My amp can handel the TT2's output thou.


----------



## tunes

Articnoise said:


> Yes I also prefer the sound of TT2 in DAC mode vs amp mode. My amp can handel the TT2's output thou.


I have efficient


DJJEZ said:


> DAVE owners. Are you using DAC mode or pre mode?


I have been using highly efficient Alnico speakers direct from RCA out on DAVE with excellent results.  I wanted to try an external amp for the speakers as well and have on hand a RAAL HSA1B.  I connected the amp to the RCA out on the DAVE and speakers to the banana jacks on the HSA1B.  For some reason could only get decent output from DAVE with volume turned way up and amp at 1-2 O’clock on the volume knob.  There is a static like distortion with this set up and don’t know why the speakers seem to need more not less power when driven with the amp the chain.   I set the amp on speaker mode of course.  Any suggestions?


----------



## Torq (Jul 10, 2021)

tunes said:


> I connected the amp to the RCA out on the DAVE and speakers to the banana jacks on the HSA1B. For some reason could only get decent output from DAVE with volume turned way up and amp at 1-2 O’clock on the volume knob. There is a static like distortion with this set up and don’t know why the speakers seem to need more not less power when driven with the amp the chain. I set the amp on speaker mode of course. Any suggestions?



What do you have the HSA-1b's input-level attenuation set to?

For what you're doing, you'll want it set to 0 dB (mine came set at -10 dB by default if I remember correctly).

That means opening up the amp and flipping some DIP switches.  They are located on a small board at the back of the amp (the blue switch block in the picture, though yours may be red):






The settings are as follows:





So flip them all to "OFF".

If you're turning DAVE's output up above 0 dB, then you may run into digital clipping - which would be the distortion you're hearing.  Don't do that.  And if you can, run the XLRs into the HSA-1b instead of the RCAs.


----------



## tunes

Does changing the input level attenuation have any effect on the headphone performance and will it void the warranty?  Also, why are XLR outputs on DAVE better? Can I leave the speakers connected via XLR and also keep the Amp connected via RCA out?  Does the amp sound any better with XLR vs RCA??

Thanks for your help.


----------



## jlbrach

changing it doesnt void warranty as it is suggested by manufacturer....in fact I was walked through by danny himself....


----------



## tunes

jlbrach said:


> changing it doesnt void warranty as it is suggested by manufacturer....in fact I was walked through by danny himself....


Can you try to answer my other questions concerning XLR vs RCA?


----------



## DJJEZ

tunes said:


> Does changing the input level attenuation have any effect on the headphone performance and will it void the warranty?  Also, why are XLR outputs on DAVE better? Can I leave the speakers connected via XLR and also keep the Amp connected via RCA out?  Does the amp sound any better with XLR vs RCA??
> 
> Thanks for your help.


Pretty sure Rob Watts has said on this forum that RCA is cleaner on the DAVE and his preferred choice.


----------



## Torq

tunes said:


> Does changing the input level attenuation have any effect on the headphone performance



In theory, it'll make it better.  It will remove two resistors from the signal path, eliminating their self-noise.  In practice, the difference will be at something below -140 dB and will be qualitiatively inaudible (other than given you much higher output for a given input).



tunes said:


> and will it void the warranty?



You'd have to ask RAAL-requisite.

But everyone I know with an HSA-1b has switched their input attenuation level at some point.



tunes said:


> Also, why are XLR outputs on DAVE better?



They're not "better".  DAVE is a natively single-ended design, so the balanced/XLR outputs are derived rather than native and consequently single-ended output should have a tiny, measurable, advantage.  However, they XLRs run at higher output levels (double the voltage differential) so will yield a higher output level from DAVE without having to turn the volume up beyond 0 dB.



tunes said:


> Can I leave the speakers connected via XLR and also keep the Amp connected via RCA out?



You can, but maybe I missed the point of what you're trying to do.  I thought you were trying to run your speakers from the speaker outputs on the HSA-1b.  That's how you'd get more power than from DAVE direct.  DAVE -> HSA-1b [Speaker Outputs] -> Speakers.



tunes said:


> Does the amp sound any better with XLR vs RCA??



Only if you're using long-runs of cables or are in a EMI/RFI prone environment.


----------



## jlbrach

tunes said:


> Can you try to answer my other questions concerning XLR vs RCA?


the xlr out apparently puts out a bit more power otherwise signal is the same or even the rca is better since it was designed to be single ended


----------



## DJJEZ

Which setting is everyone using for HF FIL? I've seen people say to turn it off if using M-scaler


----------



## ecwl

DJJEZ said:


> Which setting is everyone using for HF FIL? I've seen people say to turn it off if using M-scaler


Off if original source is 44.1kHz or 48kHz. On if original source is 88.2kHz or above. M-Scaler doesn’t matter.
This is specific for DAVE. I always leave HF filter On for Hugo 2. 
Of course you may disagree. But I think there are specific technical reasons for this.


----------



## tunes

Torq said:


> In theory, it'll make it better.  It will remove two resistors from the signal path, eliminating their self-noise.  In practice, the difference will be at something below -140 dB and will be qualitiatively inaudible (other than given you much higher output for a given input).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How can I use my Susvara to take advantage of the higher output from the HSA-1b if I have the 1/4 in headphone plug?  So I just leave the switch up for SRIa while listening to Susvara?  Do I need an adapter to run Susvara from the speaker banana jacks of the HSA-1b??


----------



## Torq

This really belongs in an HSA-1b thread ... but ...



tunes said:


> How can I use my Susvara to take advantage of the higher output from the HSA-1b if I have the 1/4 in headphone plug?



You can't.

The 1/4" TRS socket will only give you 250mw into 32 ohms, which translates to 133mw into the 60 ohms of the Susvara.

You'll need to use a proper 4-pin XLR terminated cable for your Susvara (they should have come with one), in combination with the "Ribbon to Low Efficiency Headphones" adapter cable (that comes with the HSA-1b, see below).  Plug the headphone end of that adapter into your 4-pin XLR cable on the headphone, then the other end into the "Ribbon" socket (left-most, male 4-pin XLR) on the HSA-1b:





tunes said:


> So I just leave the switch up for SRIa while listening to Susvara?



No, you'll want to flip the "SR1/HP" switch to "HP", since this just determines if the SR1a compensation curve is applied or not (has nothing to do with power).

---

Using the Ribbon output with the supplied adapter cable will give you about 9x more power than the 1/4" or standard 4-pin XLR sockets - in other words 1900mw into 32 ohms or 1013mW (1W) into the Susvara (enough to drive them to 112 dB/SPL with some headroom for peaks - which is "hearing damage in 60 seconds" level).



tunes said:


> Do I need an adapter to run Susvara from the speaker banana jacks of the HSA-1b?



You'll either need an adapter to let you connect from a standard headphone 4-pin XLR cable to 4mm banana plugs, or you'll need a dedicated cable that directly connects your headphones to the same 4mm banana plugs.  Doing it that way will get you an extra 3rd of a watt into the Susvara, which will give you more headroom for dynamic peaks.


----------



## tunes

Torq said:


> This really belongs in an HSA-1b thread ... but ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which of the two options will be the most transparent from the DAVE?


----------



## Simon-in-Suffolk

DJJEZ said:


> DAVE owners. Are you using DAC mode or pre mode?


Pre mode into Chord Etude - as well as driving Empyreans


----------



## Torq

tunes said:


> Which of the two options will be the most transparent from the DAVE?



In theory, from the banana connectors - it'll avoid one pair of resistors.  More importantly, you'll get more power into the Susvara.


----------



## Articnoise

Torq said:


> In theory, from the banana connectors - it'll avoid one pair of resistors.  More importantly, you'll get more power into the Susvara.



I have tested with and without resistors, with other audio gear, and heard a clear improvement without it. This is not as strange as some make it out to be. 

"A resistor works by restricting the flow of current, it can do this in one of three ways: firstly, by using a less conductive material, secondly by making the conductive material thinner and finally by making the conductive material longer. A lot of resistors are wire-wound, as the name suggests they consist of a conductive wire wound around an insulating middle, with other resistors rather than a physical wire wound around, it’s just a spiral of carbon, these are called carbon-film. Wire-wound resistors are more precise and stable than carbon-film resistors, the resistance of the resistor is controlled by the number of turns and thickness of the wire. There are many types of resistors but they all function on the same three principles as this is the only reliable way to control the resistance of the resistors.!!





"Current can be thought of like water flowing through a pipe. Resistance would be how easy it is for that water to flow. On the left is a more ‘conductive’ pipe as it is wider it allows more electrons through and therefore has a larger current. On the right is a less ‘conductive’ pipe as it is thinner it allows less electrons through and therefore has a smaller current."

https://proto-pic.co.uk/what-is-a-resistor-how-does-it-work/


----------



## Ciggavelli

If I have an m-scaler, would I still benefit from PGGB remasters?  I might try the 5 song demo. I have 6.8 tb of flac (most 16/44, but also a fair amount on 24/96).  I can’t imagine how much more space I’ll need for PGGB files. I have a K50 coming in next week, where I’m installing an 8tb ssd. At Amazon they have the exact model I bought at a nice discount at the moment (less than $700).

https://www.amazon.com/SAMSUNG-870-...rds=8tb+ssd&qid=1626144213&sprefix=8tb&sr=8-3

I guess the Antipodes k50 can go up to 24tb so, I guess technically I might have enough space to remaster everything. I gotta do some research


----------



## edwardsean (Jul 13, 2021)

Ciggavelli said:


> If I have an m-scaler, would I still benefit from PGGB remasters?  I might try the 5 song demo. I have 6.8 tb of flac (most 16/44, but also a fair amount on 24/96).  I can’t imagine how much more space I’ll need for PGGB files. I have a K50 coming in next week, where I’m installing an 8tb ssd. At Amazon they have the exact model I bought at a nice discount at the moment (less than $700).
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/SAMSUNG-870-...rds=8tb+ssd&qid=1626144213&sprefix=8tb&sr=8-3
> 
> I guess the Antipodes k50 can go up to 24tb so, I guess technically I might have enough space to remaster everything. I gotta do some research



You would keep the M-scaler for streaming, as many have done, and use PGGB for your file library. I think you know it would be one or other at a time, as they are both upscaling algorithms.

If you have a half decent computer you should download the trial and remaster some of your favorite tracks. I think you will truly like what you hear.


----------



## Triode User

Ciggavelli said:


> If I have an m-scaler, would I still benefit from PGGB remasters?  I might try the 5 song demo. I have 6.8 tb of flac (most 16/44, but also a fair amount on 24/96).  I can’t imagine how much more space I’ll need for PGGB files. I have a K50 coming in next week, where I’m installing an 8tb ssd. At Amazon they have the exact model I bought at a nice discount at the moment (less than $700).
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/SAMSUNG-870-...rds=8tb+ssd&qid=1626144213&sprefix=8tb&sr=8-3
> 
> I guess the Antipodes k50 can go up to 24tb so, I guess technically I might have enough space to remaster everything. I gotta do some research


I see you have a zenith Mk3. The new Innuos 2.0 app can play pggb 705/768 files so you might like to compare sound quality. With the k50 I prefer MPD sound quality for pggb files but I’m hoping the new Antipodes 3.1 software will allow the use of the latest version of Squeezelite which should also play 705/768 files (ie PGGB).

Regarding the SSD, I was recommended to go for the Samsung EVO range for the K50 rather than QVO.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Triode User said:


> I see you have a zenith Mk3. The new Innuos 2.0 app can play pggb 705/768 files so you might like to compare sound quality. With the k50 I prefer MPD sound quality for pggb files but I’m hoping the new Antipodes 3.1 software will allow the use of the latest version of Squeezelite which should also play 705/768 files (ie PGGB).
> 
> Regarding the SSD, I was recommended to go for the Samsung EVO range for the K50 rather than QVO.


Thanks @Triode User and @edwardsean!

Why do you recommend the EVO over the QVO?  I don’t think they make an 8tb EVO (or at least I can’t find it at any store).  I did some research and the EVO is faster and should last longer. Does the EVO affect sound quality on the K50?  If so, how?  If it does affect sound quality I guess I can return it and get three 4tb EVOs.


----------



## Triode User

Ciggavelli said:


> Thanks @Triode User and @edwardsean!
> 
> Why do you recommend the EVO over the QVO?  I don’t think they make an 8tb EVO (or at least I can’t find it at any store).  I did some research and the EVO is faster and should last longer. Does the EVO affect sound quality on the K50?  If so, how?  If it does affect sound quality I guess I can return it and get three 4tb EVOs.


I have no personal experience of comparing the EVO and QVD but being faster and lasting longer does seem like a good place to start. I have a vague recollection that it was Antipodes themselves who suggested the EVO range for sound quality but don’t hold me to that!. You could always email Antipodes I suppose and ask for their advice. Anyway, for the moment I went with three of the 4TB EVO SSD in my K50.


----------



## JTbbb

Triode User said:


> I have no personal experience of comparing the EVO and QVD but being faster and lasting longer does seem like a good place to start. I have a vague recollection that it was Antipodes themselves who suggested the EVO range for sound quality but don’t hold me to that!. You could always email Antipodes I suppose and ask for their advice. Anyway, for the moment I went with three of the 4TB EVO SSD in my K50.



Naim also recommends the EVO range for sound quality.


----------



## tunes

Just out of curiosity has anyone been satisfied with the Susvara driven direct by DAVE?


----------



## atya35mm

Yeap tried that and no good at all. A topping a90 would be better than just direct from Dave.


----------



## tunes

For portable use while on vacation would a HUGO2 with Topping be a good compromise rather than moving the DAVE from home?  Also worry about theft.


----------



## atya35mm

Yes I reckon Hugo with topping would be much better. I tried from single ended dave output, it makes Susvara into a treble only headphone. I’m simplifying things a bit… You might get away playing low volumes for music without any bass ‘ attack. Like choir music or arias? Hehe.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Triode User said:


> I have no personal experience of comparing the EVO and QVD but being faster and lasting longer does seem like a good place to start. I have a vague recollection that it was Antipodes themselves who suggested the EVO range for sound quality but don’t hold me to that!. You could always email Antipodes I suppose and ask for their advice. Anyway, for the moment I went with three of the 4TB EVO SSD in my K50.


I looked at what Antipodes says, and I came across this:



> We recommend you use Samsung EVO SSDs.  The quality of firmware differs between SSD suppliers and some brands can create problems for you under various circumstances, but we have found that the Samsung SSDs have the best and most robust firmware out of the many we have tested.  Some people claim different SSDs sound different, and we agree that is true during a burn-in period of about a week, but that after burn-in the sound is very similar.  One exception to this is that we find 2.5″ Sata SSDs to sound considerably more natural compared with any of the msata or m.2 SSDs.



https://www.antipodes.audio/models/internal-storage/

It seems to be related to the supplier's firmware.  I assume all Samsung SSDs have the same firmware, so I think I should be fine with the QVD (maybe)  

Thanks for your help!


----------



## jlbrach

tunes said:


> Just out of curiosity has anyone been satisfied with the Susvara driven direct by DAVE?


nope, the dave is a great DAC/amp for easy to drive HP's but the susvara is beyond the amps abilities


----------



## DJJEZ

i tried the abyss 1266tc out of the DAVE and its very underwhelming lol


----------



## jlbrach

actually it depends what music you listen to...I think it sounds pretty darn good if listening to modern remastered music but since I listen to tons of acoustic jazz and other music that requires more volume the dave doesnt work well alone with my TC....when listening to quiet jazz recordings I would need to turn the volume north of +4 on the dave which will introduce clipping etc...so an amp is neccesary


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jul 14, 2021)

So, I got the trial version of PGGB.  It's very good and similar to the M-Scaler.  I remastered DJ Quik's "Nobody" and it sounds like there is increased resolution and more instrument separation.  I chose that song because it is mixed and mastered extremely well.

If you don't have an M-Scaler, I think PGGB can almost emulate the M-Scaler effect.  I'm going to keep experimenting with different settings and listening to different albums.

While this is a great product, the extremely large file sizes are an issue.  Single songs range from 1gb to 4gb (depending on the length).  That is crazy, and not feasible with current ssd sizes.  The M-Scaler is the better practical option.  But still, PGGB is pretty cool.  If I had unlimited ssd space, I might consider using PGGB over the M-Scaler.  However, current ssd storage space (even HHD too) is nowhere near large enough to convert your whole music collection to 32-bit and 705.6 resolution.  I guess you could do it just for your favorite albums, but that's a compromise.  With the M-Scaler all of your albums get upscaled.


----------



## The Jester

Big HDD’s are fairly cheap these days and using a NAS drive with Raid ensures file security … and with current system speeds importing a batch of albums to the local SSD for replay would be feasible, but that gets away from the “instant access” that makes ripping a CD collection to PC so attractive, that’s one reason I bought the M Scaler to start with as it upgrades everything ”on the fly” …


----------



## tunes

Torq said:


> What do you have the HSA-1b's input-level attenuation set to?
> 
> For what you're doing, you'll want it set to 0 dB (mine came set at -10 dB by default if I remember correctly).
> 
> ...


It seems that the input attenuation dip switches only affect the XLR inputs.  If I had been using RCA input then the dip switch settings shouldn’t matter.  Still don’t get why there is so little headroom for RCA input when using Susvara?


----------



## mammal

The Jester said:


> Big HDD’s are fairly cheap these days and using a NAS drive with Raid ensures file security … and with current system speeds importing a batch of albums to the local SSD for replay would be feasible, but that gets away from the “instant access” that makes ripping a CD collection to PC so attractive, that’s one reason I bought the M Scaler to start with as it upgrades everything ”on the fly” …





Ciggavelli said:


> While this is a great product, the extremely large file sizes are an issue. Single songs range from 1gb to 4gb (depending on the length). That is crazy, and not feasible with current ssd sizes.


Depends how geeky you want to get, but there are ways how one can truly optimise and squeeze out performance out of traditional HDD systems, if they are paired with SSDs and a lots of RAM. For example, you can build a system (NAS) using Open Source "TrueNas Core" and have a tiered disk system. You would use HDDs for your raw data storage (all the FLACs and PGGB files), then for Roon purposes (indexing of your library) you would use a fast SSD (preferably PCIe connected, not SATA) and then for further optimisation, you would give it 128GB+ memory (which is cheap these days, you can get as high as a TB of RAM), as the OS optimises (aka caches) files that have been accessed recently. Then, you are not really bottlenecked, as sequential read is very decent on HDDs. And if you were to write to your NAS a lot, you could use Intel Optane for TrueNas ZIL persistent write caching. My point being, there are options how to get incredible amount of storage space for cheap, while keeping performance as close as SSDs (for sequential reads, so songs and movies are fine, not Virtual Machines or multitenancy systems), for a good price by tiering technologies.


----------



## Another Audiophile

For the fellow headfiers owning a Dave and m scaler I am selling the absolute BNC interconnects. A pair of Nordost Tyr 2


----------



## penguin69

Hi all,

I've not posted in a good while due to ill health, so go easy on me! 

Due to some amplifier issues which I cannot quickly resolve due to being housebound currently (aforesaid ill health), I recently decided to configure my Dave in pre-amp mode and connect it directly into my loudspeakers, a pair of second-hand Kudos Titan 808's. 

As it happens, I very rarely listen to music at loud volumes and this new set-up actually plays music to a loudness level that I find adequate.

What I would like to know is whether there is any risk either to my speakers or to the Dave itself through using this approach. I have looked at some previous posts on this subject and it seems that the speakers could be at risk, however I could not find any detail on what that risk might be.

For information, the Titans have 91db sensitivity.

Thanks in advance,
Pat


----------



## Torq (Jul 14, 2021)

Ciggavelli said:


> So, I got the trial version of PGGB.



Coincidentally, I got the trial version of PGGB up and running earlier this week and have today carved out to evaluate the results.

Yesterday I processed my standard 100-track evaluation list up to 16FS/32 bits.

I’ll be spending some time today doing proper, software-administered, ABX comparisons with processed vs. non-processed files.  I’ll use my DAVE, without the M-Scaler in the chain, for this - as the first comparison I want to do is  PGGB vs. non-PGGB rather than PGGB  vs. M-Scaler.  That should provide the biggest delta between untouched files and processed ones.

Interested to see how that goes.

And then when that's done, if I like the results, I'll do comparisons against HQPlayer (which I don't use in my normal listening, more for when I did reviews and/or with NOS or certain DSD converters) and my M-Scaler.



Ciggavelli said:


> However, current ssd storage space (even HHD too) is nowhere near large enough to convert your whole music collection to 32-bit and 705.6 resolution.



Based on the 100 files I processed, and comparing before/after sizes, I'd need ~200 18TB drives (3.5 PB) to store a 16FS/32-bit copy of my full local library*.  WAVPACK would roughly halve that, but Roon won't play it.  Sticking to 8FS/24-bit and using FLAC, that'd become a more tenable 25 (or so) drive array and Roon will work with it.  Though lowering the processing level seems to defeat the point a bit.

I think some level of automation would be required for me to use PGGB effectively, if I decide I like the results.  Some that let me NOT keep the processed files around, but instead I'd queue up the albums I want to play, let those process (it'll do that now, if I manually copy the albums to the input folder, of course), and then have the necessary playlist automatically generated (such that the files could still be processing, since they process at more than 1x, while I was starting to listen to the first one that was completed).  And then have it clean them up post-play.

I'll have to look at the integration options for Roon to see if that can be done - directly as a proper extension or indirectly via clever tricks.

---

*Don't let this spook you too much, while the output files are large I also have an unusually large library.


----------



## edwardsean (Jul 14, 2021)

Torq said:


> Coincidentally, I got the trial version of PGGB up and running earlier this week and have today carved out to evaluate the results.
> 
> Yesterday I processed my standard 100-track evaluation list up to 16FS/32 bits.
> 
> ...


There is one additional factor that may come into play, esp. for comparisons with M-scaler. Users have been finding that feeding PGGB files into Dave’s dual-BNC via Audiowise SRC-DX is superior to USB. This is despite the fact that over USB you are able to convert at 32bit rate, while over S/Pdif you are limited to 24bit rate. 

The more technical discussion can be found on the AS threads for PGGB and SRC-DX. Put simply, going into the BNC gets around the high latency of the Amanero USB receiver chip in Dave. The benefits of this hold for both PGGB and of course M-scaler, which may come into consideration when you compare. 

I’ve found the difference fairly dramatic myself and switched over to dual-BNC. As a bonus you are saving quite a bit on storage requirements. 

Looking forward to your impressions of PGGB!


----------



## Torq

edwardsean said:


> There is one additional factor that may come into play, esp. for comparisons with M-scaler. Users have been finding that feeding PGGB files into Dave’s dual-BNC via Audiowise SRC-DX is superior to USB. This is despite the fact that over USB you are able to convert at 32bit rate, while over S/Pdif you are limited to 24bit rate.



I'm familiar with the SRC-DX unit (and PGGB's author had mentioned it as well).  I tried their Opto-DX product between my M-Scalers (both the HMS and the Blu-Mk2) and DAVE (and Hugo TT 2) a while back and found that yielded no difference that I could perceive.

The storage-size reduction using SRC-DX would be useful, but since there isn't a scenario in which I am realistically entertaining dropping tens of thousands on drive arrays for this, it's a bit moot.  I'd have to come up with some other way to employ it (e.g. coding up some automation, along the lines I described). Whether it is worth the effort to do that will depend on the listening results.

Even if PGGB proves to beat the M-Scaler at its own game, my Blu-Mk2 won't be going anywhere.  For one thing, I'd still want it for streaming content, and for another  convenience, if my automating around PGGB doesn't wind up being convenient enough for use in every listening session.

But that's all cart-before-the-horse - I've got to finish my straight PGGB to non-PGGB ABX comparisons first, before I put anything else back in the chain.  I'm not JUST using DAVE for this step, either, but that's where I'm starting since that's what all the initial discussion was about (and I own one).

Certainly interesting stuff.  Probably should have a dedicated thread.


----------



## Triode User

Torq said:


> Certainly interesting stuff. Probably should have a dedicated thread.


There is :-

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/pggb-offline-remastering.958100/


----------



## Torq

Triode User said:


> There is :-
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/pggb-offline-remastering.958100/



I'll post any further updates there, then (and maybe on the original thread on AS).


----------



## Sampajanna

Check out which device they are using to promote this product: https://hifipig.com/chord-groundaray-grounding-devices/


----------



## miketlse

Sampajanna said:


> Check out which device they are using to promote this product: https://hifipig.com/chord-groundaray-grounding-devices/


Be aware that these devices are made by the Chord Company who make cables, and not Chord Electronics who make the DAVE.
They are two different companies.


----------



## Sampajanna

miketlse said:


> Be aware that these devices are made by the Chord Company who make cables, and not Chord Electronics who make the DAVE.
> They are two different companies.


Good point!


----------



## atya35mm

I almost bought some Chord interconnects thinking it's the same Chord as the Chord Dave.


----------



## miketlse

atya35mm said:


> I almost bought some Chord interconnects thinking it's the same Chord as the Chord Dave.


You are not the first person to be initially confused by this. There are occasional posts claiming that chord cables must have been designed to have great synergy with chord dacs/gear. There are also a few posts where chord dac owners, mistakenly emailed chord cables about customer support for their chord dacs, and then complained on head-Fi that they received no reply.......


----------



## The Jester

The Chord cable company came first in 1984 from an idea to produce high quality cables for Naim Audio, wasn’t until 1989 that  Chord Electronics released their first high end Amp the SPM900 and in 2002 their DAC64 ….


----------



## miketlse (Jul 17, 2021)

The Jester said:


> The Chord cable company came first in 1984 from an idea to produce high quality cables for Naim Audio, wasn’t until 1989 that  Chord Electronics released their first high end Amp the SPM900 and in 2002 their DAC64 ….


I think you are misunderstanding the issue.


----------



## The Jester

Just saying which came first …


----------



## Sampajanna

Anyone gonna try one of those doodads?


----------



## atya35mm

Talking about interconnects, to all the Dave owners pairing with balanced amplifier, do you prefer XLR or RCA connection to amp? From reading both Dave and WA33, I see Rob Watts of Chord recommending RCA out and Woo Audio recommending XLR in for WA33 due to balanced design.  

I did some testing with the WA33 in my own setup, and I prefer the RCA connection. While I feel XLR provides slightly bigger soundstage / space, there is bit of harshness introduced somehow to my ears and sounds less engaging. Not an expert in all the audiophile terms so that's my impression. Also have to say it's not a fair apples to apples test, as the RCA cables I have on hand is 3x the retail price of the XLR. But they are all below USD <$1000. So not talking crazy cables. 

Would be keen to get other's experience!


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jul 16, 2021)

atya35mm said:


> Talking about interconnects, to all the Dave owners pairing with balanced amplifier, do you prefer XLR or RCA connection to amp? From reading both Dave and WA33, I see Rob Watts of Chord recommending RCA out and Woo Audio recommending XLR in for WA33 due to balanced design.
> 
> I did some testing with the WA33 in my own setup, and I prefer the RCA connection. While I feel XLR provides slightly bigger soundstage / space, there is bit of harshness introduced somehow to my ears and sounds less engaging. Not an expert in all the audiophile terms so that's my impression. Also have to say it's not a fair apples to apples test, as the RCA cables I have on hand is 3x the retail price of the XLR. But they are all below USD <$1000. So not talking crazy cables.
> 
> Would be keen to get other's experience!


I use XLR from my DAVE to WA33. I’ve read that the XLR and RCA use the same current (I don’t know if that’s the right word, but I mean the XLR and rca paths are the exact same),  apparently Rob put in the XLR for convenience, and it’s not a “full” XLR connection. I also read that Rob says the RCA are a tiny bit better than XLR. So, it’s pretty hard to tell meaningful differences between the two. I’m okay with that, and continue to use XLR cables on the DAVE


----------



## atya35mm

Ciggavelli said:


> I use XLR from my DAVE to WA33. I’ve read that the XLR and RCA use the same current (I don’t know if that’s the right word, but I mean the XLR and rca paths are the exact same),  apparently Rob put in the XLR for convenience, and it’s not a “full” XLR connection. I also read that Rob says the RCA are a tiny bit better than XLR. So, it’s pretty hard to tell meaningful differences between the two. I’m okay with that, and continue to use XLR cables on the DAVE



Thanks! I can confirm that the XLR and RCA use the same current. During the test, I was switching between XLR & RCA input on the WA33, I was expecting to adjust the volumes thinking the XLR might have more current from past experience, but didn't because the volume between both XLR & RCA input is exactly the same, which was surprising! 

I'll see if I can audition a higher end XLR cables to test against the current RCA cables I have.


----------



## The Jester

Balanced cables come into their own with longer runs, such as using Monoblock amps close to the speakers,
looking at absolute transparency on say a 1 metre interconnect there’s less electronics in the signal path with RCA but I’m guessing some exotic gear and cables would be needed to notice the difference ..
probably notice more difference upgrading the RCA sockets to quality solid copper ones but that’s not cheap either …


----------



## Articnoise

atya35mm said:


> Thanks! I can confirm that the XLR and RCA use the same current. During the test, I was switching between XLR & RCA input on the WA33, I was expecting to adjust the volumes thinking the XLR might have more current from past experience, but didn't because the volume between both XLR & RCA input is exactly the same, which was surprising!
> 
> I'll see if I can audition a higher end XLR cables to test against the current RCA cables I have.



In DAC mode yes in amp mode there is a clear difference.

"In variable mode, the Chord's maximum output level at 1kHz with the volume control set to "0dB" was 8.75V from the balanced output jacks, 4.375V from the unbalanced jacks and the headphone jack. With the volume control set to "+3dB," the levels were 12.35V balanced and 6.18V unbalanced, but the DAVE clipped with full-scale data at settings of "+3dB" and above. In Fixed mode, the maximum balanced output level at 1kHz was 6.2V, equivalent to setting the volume control to "–3dB." 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-dave-da-processor-measurements


----------



## TheAttorney

atya35mm said:


> Talking about interconnects, to all the Dave owners pairing with balanced amplifier, do you prefer XLR or RCA connection to amp?


If the amp is a true balanced design, then I would expect XLR connections to sound better - as was the case when I had DAVE connected to BHSE.
Probably more important though is the quality of the cable. My TQ Black Diamond XLR cables sounded better thn the more expensive (but older) Transparenr Refernce SE cables, but the sound signature of these 2 cables very obviously followed  the respective house sound of these two manufacturers.


----------



## tunes

TheAttorney said:


> If the amp is a true balanced design, then I would expect XLR connections to sound better - as was the case when I had DAVE connected to BHSE.
> Probably more important though is the quality of the cable. My TQ Black Diamond XLR cables sounded better thn the more expensive (but older) Transparenr Refernce SE cables, but the sound signature of these 2 cables very obviously followed  the respective house sound of these two manufacturers.


When using DAVE with external amp via RCA out, should the manual preamp mode be used  or will it be automatic if HP Not connected to front jack?  How do you switch to preamp mode?


----------



## ecwl

tunes said:


> When using DAVE with external amp via RCA out, should the manual preamp mode be used  or will it be automatic if HP Not connected to front jack?  How do you switch to preamp mode?


I personally think that nobody should ever use the DAC mode for DAVE. It is not automatic so in theory you could be in DAC mode and have an HP plugged to the front jack and maybe damage the HP so I have never tried it. As long as your DAC is in Digital Pre mode, if the HP is plugged in, the sound only goes to HP. If there is no HP plugged in, the sound goes to the RCA and XLR at the same time. DAVE remembers a separate volume for HP & a separate volume for RCA+XLR.

My reasons for people to always keep the DAVE in Digital Pre mode are:
1) If you love DAC mode so much, you can just stay in Digital Pre mode and set the volume at -3dB. They’re identical
2) Many amplifiers clip at 2V or 1V instead of 3V. So you actually don’t want your DAVE to be in DAC mode putting out 3V if your amp is clipping at 1/2V
3) Most amplifiers with analog volume control (integrated amplifiers) have specific volumes where they perform their best, in terms of low-level linearity, SNR and channel balance. Usually, it’s around 12 o’clock on the dial. I think it’s better to just leave your analog volume control set specifically at that position and then use DAVE to adjust the volume, rather than set DAVE at 3V and then adjust your amp’s volume control if you want optimal sound.


----------



## tunes

tunes said:


> When using DAVE with external amp via RCA out, should the manual preamp mode be used  or will it be automatic if HP Not connected to front jack?  How do you switch to preamp mode?





ecwl said:


> I personally think that nobody should ever use the DAC mode for DAVE. It is not automatic so in theory you could be in DAC mode and have an HP plugged to the front jack and maybe damage the HP so I have never tried it. As long as your DAC is in Digital Pre mode, if the HP is plugged in, the sound only goes to HP. If there is no HP plugged in, the sound goes to the RCA and XLR at the same time. DAVE remembers a separate volume for HP & a separate volume for RCA+XLR.
> 
> My reasons for people to always keep the DAVE in Digital Pre mode are:
> 1) If you love DAC mode so much, you can just stay in Digital Pre mode and set the volume at -3dB. They’re identical
> ...


So how do I set up my DAVE to always be in Digital Pre mode??


----------



## Torq

tunes said:


> So how do I set up my DAVE to always be in Digital Pre mode??



With DAVE powered on, and with no headphones connected, simultaneously press and hold the left and right menu buttons until you see the mode (shown in the bottom right corner of the display) switch to "Digital pre".

It'll stay in that mode unless you change it manually or plug in headphones.  Plugging in headphones will mute the RCA and XLR outputs and put Dave in "Headphone" mode.  When you disconnect your headphones DAVE will switch back to "Digital pre" mode.


----------



## Clive101 (Jul 17, 2021)

Hello All
Just caught up with the last 20 pages...
DC4 = DAVE on steroids
Grounding
Anyone who has has a DC4 just ground it with some 10 mm earth wire (fits into the DC4 grounding connection) to an earth rod. Hear the difference (note this is against NEC) then try a Russ Andrews Super Router. Great Bass and sweet treble. No going back.
Antipodes K50 Samsung SSD all in the same ball park EVO vs QVO had both ...but was recommended one SSD was better than two or more...so try.
Antipodes K50 to Dave or Mscaler BNC is my preferred connection.
Sorry for short post


----------



## jlbrach

ecwl said:


> I personally think that nobody should ever use the DAC mode for DAVE. It is not automatic so in theory you could be in DAC mode and have an HP plugged to the front jack and maybe damage the HP so I have never tried it. As long as your DAC is in Digital Pre mode, if the HP is plugged in, the sound only goes to HP. If there is no HP plugged in, the sound goes to the RCA and XLR at the same time. DAVE remembers a separate volume for HP & a separate volume for RCA+XLR.
> 
> My reasons for people to always keep the DAVE in Digital Pre mode are:
> 1) If you love DAC mode so much, you can just stay in Digital Pre mode and set the volume at -3dB. They’re identical
> ...


I agree 100%, I always keep my dave in pre mode...when I use my external amp I can keep it at -3 or whatever I choose and when I go straight out of the dave with headphones it remembers my last setting...works like a charm


----------



## Ciggavelli

Clive101 said:


> Hello All
> Just caught up with the last 20 pages...
> DC4 = DAVE on steroids
> Grounding
> ...


I finally took the plunge and ordered the DC4s for my DAVE and M-Scaler  

I also have a K50 coming in any day now. I have two 8tb Samsung QVO ssds to put in it (I have like 7tb of flac now, and that is before doing an PPGB remastering or anything like that).


----------



## Sampajanna

Congrats! I would love it if some people shared about teh difference of usb vs BNC into the Mscaler


----------



## DJJEZ (Jul 18, 2021)

Ciggavelli said:


> I finally took the plunge and ordered the DC4s for my DAVE and M-Scaler
> 
> I also have a K50 coming in any day now. I have two 8tb Samsung QVO ssds to put in it (I have like 7tb of flac now, and that is before doing an PPGB remastering or anything like that).


Congrats! Please let us know what you think after spending time with them.I've been considering the DC4's as well


----------



## Triode User

Ciggavelli said:


> I finally took the plunge and ordered the DC4s for my DAVE and M-Scaler
> 
> I also have a K50 coming in any day now. I have two 8tb Samsung QVO ssds to put in it (I have like 7tb of flac now, and that is before doing an PPGB remastering or anything like that).


Amazing, you will not regret the DC4s. I am still in awe of the sound every time I use my Dave and Mscaler with their DC4s. You may well have seen the post by austinpop on AS reporting on his first listening impressions on an upgraded version of the DC4 called the ARC6 that will be available in a few months. Inevitably this will cost more but when it does come out it seems that you will be able to upgrade for merely the cost difference between the two versions so for anyone thinking of ordering a DC4 there is no reason to delay ordering, you will not lose out.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...uter-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=

It is great also that you have a K50 coming. Do try the BNC output from the K50 to the MScaler and do also try the preloaded Squeezlite on the K50. It sounds as if you may have the K50 on load and if so see if you can hold onto it for a while because a new 3.1 version of the software is available at the end of July for the K50 which should enhance its already great sound. I think the new software includes Minimserver which some people are excited about. For PGGB files on the K50 I currently use miniDLNA on its server and MPD on its player and so far that is the best PGGB sound quality but perhaps Minimserver or the latest version of Squeezelite available with 3.1 will change that.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Triode User said:


> Amazing, you will not regret the DC4s. I am still in awe of the sound every time I use my Dave and Mscaler with their DC4s. You may well have seen the post by austinpop on AS reporting on his first listening impressions on an upgraded version of the DC4 called the ARC6 that will be available in a few months. Inevitably this will cost more but when it does come out it seems that you will be able to upgrade for merely the cost difference between the two versions so for anyone thinking of ordering a DC4 there is no reason to delay ordering, you will not lose out.
> 
> https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...uter-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=
> 
> It is great also that you have a K50 coming. Do try the BNC output from the K50 to the MScaler and do also try the preloaded Squeezlite on the K50. It sounds as if you may have the K50 on load and if so see if you can hold onto it for a while because a new 3.1 version of the software is available at the end of July for the K50 which should enhance its already great sound. I think the new software includes Minimserver which some people are excited about. For PGGB files on the K50 I currently use miniDLNA on its server and MPD on its player and so far that is the best PGGB sound quality but perhaps Minimserver or the latest version of Squeezelite available with 3.1 will change that.


Thanks for the info. 

I actually purchased the K50, and I look forward to listening to it and getting the 3.1 software. I’m excited for both these upgrades and can’t wait to hear them


----------



## Sampajanna

Triode User said:


> Amazing, you will not regret the DC4s. I am still in awe of the sound every time I use my Dave and Mscaler with their DC4s. You may well have seen the post by austinpop on AS reporting on his first listening impressions on an upgraded version of the DC4 called the ARC6 that will be available in a few months. Inevitably this will cost more but when it does come out it seems that you will be able to upgrade for merely the cost difference between the two versions so for anyone thinking of ordering a DC4 there is no reason to delay ordering, you will not lose out.
> 
> https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...uter-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=
> 
> It is great also that you have a K50 coming. Do try the BNC output from the K50 to the MScaler and do also try the preloaded Squeezlite on the K50. It sounds as if you may have the K50 on load and if so see if you can hold onto it for a while because a new 3.1 version of the software is available at the end of July for the K50 which should enhance its already great sound. I think the new software includes Minimserver which some people are excited about. For PGGB files on the K50 I currently use miniDLNA on its server and MPD on its player and so far that is the best PGGB sound quality but perhaps Minimserver or the latest version of Squeezelite available with 3.1 will change that.


Nick, how would u describe the difference between bnc and usb to mscaler?


----------



## griff500

griff500 said:


> I look forward to your "TT2 for sale" thread.





DJJEZ said:


> Selling my TT2 if anyone is interested
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/chord-tt2-black-mint-condition.7894/


----------



## TheAttorney (Jul 18, 2021)

.


----------



## ecwl

Sampajanna said:


> Nick, how would u describe the difference between bnc and usb to mscaler?


I know some people here would disagree strongly with me as they felt power cords/supplies/computer server design affects the sound a lot more.

USB to M-scaler is galvanically isolated whereas the BNC input to M-Scaler does not have galvanic isolation. Of course, Toslink would definitely be completely galvanically isolated which means no ground loop leakage current RF noise would leak into M-Scaler/DAVE. And since pulse array DACs have a totally different level of jitter immunity compared to other non-Chord DACs, you can easily get away with feeding Chord DACs Toslink without a loss in sound quality. However, no USB galvanic isolation is perfect (unless it’s optical?) so depending on your desktop and computer network system, you can still potentially get RF noise leaking through the USB.

So ultimately, once you ask the question how does BNC compared to USB, to me, you’re really asking, how does it compare in a specific system. If you’re playing off a battery-powered iPad/laptop via USB to M-Scaler, vs a battery-power laptop into a USB to BNC converter into M-Scaller, they should (and do in my system) sound identical because there is no RF noise leaking into DAVE to negatively affect the sound. But if you’re running a noisy desktop PC with switching power supply feeding USB to M-Scaler and comparing it with a high-end CD transport with linear power supply via BNC to M-Scaler, you’ll probably find the BNC to sound better because even without the galvanic isolation, there may be less RF noise leaking from the CD transport into DAVE vs the PC into M-Scaler. With this in mind, you can really complicate your power supplies and computer system/network setup to alter the amount and type of RF noise that leaks into the DAVE if you connect via USB (and BNC).


----------



## DJJEZ (Jul 18, 2021)

griff500 said:


>


Yup you called it. I knew within 2 mins of listening I was gonna buy a DAVE lol


----------



## Triode User

ecwl said:


> I know some people here would disagree strongly with me as they felt power cords/supplies/computer server design affects the sound a lot more.
> 
> USB to M-scaler is galvanically isolated whereas the BNC input to M-Scaler does not have galvanic isolation. Of course, Toslink would definitely be completely galvanically isolated which means no ground loop leakage current RF noise would leak into M-Scaler/DAVE. And since pulse array DACs have a totally different level of jitter immunity compared to other non-Chord DACs, you can easily get away with feeding Chord DACs Toslink without a loss in sound quality. However, no USB galvanic isolation is perfect (unless it’s optical?) so depending on your desktop and computer network system, you can still potentially get RF noise leaking through the USB.
> 
> So ultimately, once you ask the question how does BNC compared to USB, to me, you’re really asking, how does it compare in a specific system. If you’re playing off a battery-powered iPad/laptop via USB to M-Scaler, vs a battery-power laptop into a USB to BNC converter into M-Scaller, they should (and do in my system) sound identical because there is no RF noise leaking into DAVE to negatively affect the sound. But if you’re running a noisy desktop PC with switching power supply feeding USB to M-Scaler and comparing it with a high-end CD transport with linear power supply via BNC to M-Scaler, you’ll probably find the BNC to sound better because even without the galvanic isolation, there may be less RF noise leaking from the CD transport into DAVE vs the PC into M-Scaler. With this in mind, you can really complicate your power supplies and computer system/network setup to alter the amount and type of RF noise that leaks into the DAVE if you connect via USB (and BNC).


Thats one view of the world.

@Sampajanna  I have never found optical direct into my Dave or into the Mscaler to be the best, or at least it is not the sound I prefer. There is also a nagging doubt about why optical is absent from so many top streamers, eg Innuos and Antipodes which are the ones I have. I did hear an interview with Nuno some time ago saying they tried optical but it had more noise in the circuit than USB and so that is why they went with USB. My system was really set up to use USB out of the Statement and so when I got the Antipodes K50 I carried on using that until I tried BNC as suggested by a friend and now I much prefer it. Everything just seems better, tone, depth and quality of the bass, delicacy of the top end etc. There are a few threads on AS about people changing from USB to BNC on Chord Dacs and they all like it. But the best way is to try it for yourself if you can.


----------



## griff500

DJJEZ said:


> Yup you called it. I knew within 2 mins of listening I was gonna buy a DAVE lol


That's why I tell people that they should not demo a DAVE unless they are ready to buy.   

Enjoy, it really is a fabulous DAC.


----------



## DJJEZ

griff500 said:


> That's why I tell people that they should not demo a DAVE unless they are ready to buy.
> 
> Enjoy, it really is a fabulous DAC.


I totally agree.  I waited till I was in a position to afford it before I home demo'd.


----------



## sm60

ecwl said:


> I personally think that nobody should ever use the DAC mode for DAVE. It is not automatic so in theory you could be in DAC mode and have an HP plugged to the front jack and maybe damage the HP so I have never tried it. As long as your DAC is in Digital Pre mode, if the HP is plugged in, the sound only goes to HP. If there is no HP plugged in, the sound goes to the RCA and XLR at the same time. DAVE remembers a separate volume for HP & a separate volume for RCA+XLR.
> 
> My reasons for people to always keep the DAVE in Digital Pre mode are:
> 1) If you love DAC mode so much, you can just stay in Digital Pre mode and set the volume at -3dB. They’re identical
> ...


I never keep my Dave in preamp mode unless I’m running it direct into a balanced amplifier. It’s always otherwise in DAC mode going into my Audio Research Ref tube preamp, which can handle all that the Dave can throw at it. Preamp mode is to my ears like listening to FM radio. All the dynamics that a top class preamp brings to the system vanish. This is not meant as a put down of the Dave, which is a great sounding DAC in DAC mode. Just don’t confuse it as a great preamp or a great headphone amplifier, because it is neither. I’ve owned quality DAC’s for over 25 years and the same critique applies to all of them. They make for lousy preamplifiers. There’s a reason Chord offers a range of preamplifiers in their line up, from the relatively inexpensive to the cost no object model.


----------



## jlbrach

in terms of the signal from the dave into your amp it matters not how you arrive at -3...it is exactly the same


----------



## audio_1

DJJEZ said:


> Yup you called it. I knew within 2 mins of listening I was gonna buy a DAVE lol


I did too. I was comparing it to the dCS Vivaldi at the time. That was without the Blu 2, Opto-dx, Farad Super3 lps and conditioned mains!


----------



## audio_1

sm60 said:


> "There’s a reason Chord offers a range of preamplifiers in their line up, from the relatively inexpensive to the cost no object model"


To make money! There is no way a pre-amp, pair of interconnects, power cord etc. can sound as good as Dave direct to a power amp in a loudspeaker system imho.


----------



## mammal (Jul 18, 2021)

audio_1 said:


> To make money! There is no way a pre-amp, pair of interconnects, power cord etc. can sound as good as Dave direct to a power amp in a loudspeaker system imho.


That assumes a person values (or optimises for) transparency. I for one, may have a different goal, where a pre-amp adds coloration my speakers may need (just an example).


----------



## audio_1 (Jul 18, 2021)

mammal said:


> That assumes a person values transparency. I for one, may have a different goal, where a pre-amp adds coloration my speakers may need (just an example).


But you no longer have a Dave. Transparency brings, realism, depth, emotion, power, dynamics, prat, enjoyment etc. These qualities can't be brought back if lost or reduced.


----------



## number1sixerfan (Jul 18, 2021)

audio_1 said:


> To make money! There is no way a pre-amp, pair of interconnects, power cord etc. can sound as good as Dave direct to a power amp in a loudspeaker system imho.



This just isn't true. And is solely a purist point of view.

Again, this idea of an amp behind the Dave polluting the signal is nothing more than something that's been imagined on this site imho. I have not seen a single, well thought out and communicated set of impressions comparing the Dave's preamp or headphone amp to high quality dedicated headphone or speaker amps ever stating so. Just one line, vague "oh but you're ruining the Dave" imaginary fairy tell statements. I'm sorry, no offense to anybody lol.

If you want to be a purist, fine. But let's please stop being ridiculous lol. At least with headphone amps, I've thoroughly compared them and it simply is not true in the real world. But that's just my opinion, maybe my ears are broken.


----------



## DJJEZ

audio_1 said:


> I did too. I was comparing it to the dCS Vivaldi at the time. That was without the Blu 2, Opto-dx, Farad Super3 lps and conditioned mains!


Im amazed you preferred the dave over vivaldi. Have you heard rossini or bartok?


----------



## mammal

audio_1 said:


> But you no longer have a Dave. Transparency brings, realism, depth, emotion, power dynamics, prat, enjoyment etc, why dilute it?


I absolutely agree that you no longer have Dave, but on your second point "why dilute it", who are we to judge? You seem to prefer absolute transparency, and I respect that, but others have different ears/brains and what Dave offers straight out may not satisfy them, for whatever reason. Why is that a bad thing...


----------



## ecwl

Triode User said:


> There is also a nagging doubt about why optical is absent from so many top streamers, eg Innuos and Antipodes which are the ones I have. I did hear an interview with Nuno some time ago saying they tried optical but it had more noise in the circuit than USB and so that is why they went with USB.


This is 100% true. If you’re on Toslink, you have a lot more jitter. No amount of jitter reduction mechanisms would be able to address the problems the jitter causes on conventional DAC architecture (DSD DACs, R2R DACs or even dCS Ring DACs), even with femtosecond clocks. This is because the residual jitter would always be transmitted to the flip-flop stage to create noise floor modulation (based on my somewhat limited understanding). So yes, there would be more noise in the DAC circuit fed Toslink for non-Chord DACs. Hence, why would any top streamers add a Toslink mechanism that would only sound good on Chord DACs and sound worse on non-Chord DACs? 

That said, I do agree with you there is a wide variety of opinions on the importance of power supplies, network steamers, servers, switches. Ultimately, I do think that as long as we are happy with the sound of our system, that’s what matters the most. I like mine on Toslink. Others like theirs on USB/BNC. We both love our sound from our Chord DACs so that’s all that matters.


----------



## Triode User

ecwl said:


> This is 100% true. If you’re on Toslink, you have a lot more jitter. No amount of jitter reduction mechanisms would be able to address the problems the jitter causes on conventional DAC architecture (DSD DACs, R2R DACs or even dCS Ring DACs), even with femtosecond clocks. This is because the residual jitter would always be transmitted to the flip-flop stage to create noise floor modulation (based on my somewhat limited understanding). So yes, there would be more noise in the DAC circuit fed Toslink for non-Chord DACs. Hence, why would any top streamers add a Toslink mechanism that would only sound good on Chord DACs and sound worse on non-Chord DACs?
> 
> That said, I do agree with you there is a wide variety of opinions on the importance of power supplies, network steamers, servers, switches. Ultimately, I do think that as long as we are happy with the sound of our system, that’s what matters the most. I like mine on Toslink. Others like theirs on USB/BNC. We both love our sound from our Chord DACs so that’s all that matters.



yep all agreed, cool.


----------



## audio_1

DJJEZ said:


> Im amazed you preferred the dave over vivaldi. Have you heard rossini or bartok?


Why are you amazed? It is not surprising due to the design of the Dave & M Scaler. Rob Watts is the only dac designer using a long tap length reconstruction filter that I know of. The Dave & M Scaler require some tweaking to sound their best, but all high end systems do.
Just because dCS components are over priced doesn't mean that they sound better. If the design philosophy is wrong or badly executed, it doesn't matter how much the component costs. External clocks, lower quality single ended outputs and computer ribbon cables carrying digital and analogue signals have no place in a high end dac imho.

 I haven't heard rossini or bartok. I owned a full 4 box dCS Scarlatti before purchasing the Dave.


----------



## DJJEZ (Jul 18, 2021)

audio_1 said:


> Why are you amazed? It is not surprising due to the design of the Dave & M Scaler. Rob Watts is the only dac designer using a long tap length reconstruction filter that I know of. The Dave & M Scaler require some tweaking to sound their best, but all high end systems do.
> Just because dCS components are over priced doesn't mean that they sound better. If the design philosophy is wrong or badly executed, it doesn't matter how much the component costs. External clocks, lower quality single ended outputs and computer ribbon cables carrying digital and analogue signals have no place in a high end dac imho.
> 
> I haven't heard rossini or bartok. I owned a full 4 box dCS Scarlatti before purchasing the Dave.


Interesting


----------



## Sampajanna

Triode User said:


> Thats one view of the world.
> 
> @Sampajanna  I have never found optical direct into my Dave or into the Mscaler to be the best, or at least it is not the sound I prefer. There is also a nagging doubt about why optical is absent from so many top streamers, eg Innuos and Antipodes which are the ones I have. I did hear an interview with Nuno some time ago saying they tried optical but it had more noise in the circuit than USB and so that is why they went with USB. My system was really set up to use USB out of the Statement and so when I got the Antipodes K50 I carried on using that until I tried BNC as suggested by a friend and now I much prefer it. Everything just seems better, tone, depth and quality of the bass, delicacy of the top end etc. There are a few threads on AS about people changing from USB to BNC on Chord Dacs and they all like it. But the best way is to try it for yourself if you can.


@Triode User I would love to try bnc. I’m still rockin a Statement, though. Been eyeing the K50, but seems mostly lateral and bnc may not be worth all the switching. I appreciate and value your thoughts, though.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Sampajanna said:


> @Triode User I would love to try bnc. I’m still rockin a Statement, though. Been eyeing the K50, but seems mostly lateral and bnc may not be worth all the switching. I appreciate and value your thoughts, though.


My K50 arrived today.  I still need time to evaluate it fully, but first impressions are great.  Blacker backgrounds, better bass, what seems like a bit of an increase in the soundstage width.  I'm using Roon Server to Roon Player at the moment.  I'll try Squeezelite Player tomorrow to see if it is better.  So, long story short, the K50 is better than the Innuos Zenith Mk3 + Phoenix that used to have.  I haven't tried using the Innuos Phoenix USB with my K50, but I will try it out soon.


----------



## Darkliner

atya35mm said:


> Talking about interconnects, to all the Dave owners pairing with balanced amplifier, do you prefer XLR or RCA connection to amp? From reading both Dave and WA33, I see Rob Watts of Chord recommending RCA out and Woo Audio recommending XLR in for WA33 due to balanced design.
> 
> I did some testing with the WA33 in my own setup, and I prefer the RCA connection. While I feel XLR provides slightly bigger soundstage / space, there is bit of harshness introduced somehow to my ears and sounds less engaging. Not an expert in all the audiophile terms so that's my impression. Also have to say it's not a fair apples to apples test, as the RCA cables I have on hand is 3x the retail price of the XLR. But they are all below USD <$1000. So not talking crazy cables.
> 
> Would be keen to get other's experience!


I use rca connection to the wa33 from the dave.  I tested both the xlr and rca connections using the same grade of cable awhile back.  I preferred the rca connection as it offered me greater transparency.


----------



## alxw0w

number1sixerfan said:


> Again, this idea of an amp behind the Dave polluting the signal is nothing more than something that's been imagined on this site imho.


Nope it's not imagined. You will always lose transparency/immediacy (as many other things) of the sound when using preamp/hp amp.
But on the other hand it doesn't change your subjective perception of sound and how you like your system to sound.
Some people prefer RAW uncolored sound (even though for some folks it may look like it's dull, lacking dynamics, lacking soundstage etc)
And some people prefer a bit more lively wider sounding music - so they choose to add preamp (maybe some tubes) or hp amp.

Nobody shouldn't tell you how you should listen to your music/system - a real gentelman doesn't do that , but we can and we should exchange our views. As in longer run everybody will benefit from expanding his horizons or just analysing different point of view.


----------



## Triode User

Sampajanna said:


> @Triode User I would love to try bnc. I’m still rockin a Statement, though. Been eyeing the K50, but seems mostly lateral and bnc may not be worth all the switching. I appreciate and value your thoughts, though.


And of course with the Statement you get to use the new Innuos 2.0 app which has a great user interface. 

A number of Chord owners have been using the AudioWise SRC-DX usb to bnc convertor and there is a thread on AS discussing this.


----------



## The Jester

alxw0w said:


> Nope it's not imagined. You will always lose transparency/immediacy (as many other things) of the sound when using preamp/hp amp.
> But on the other hand it doesn't change your subjective perception of sound and how you like your system to sound.
> Some people prefer RAW uncolored sound (even though for some folks it may look like it's dull, lacking dynamics, lacking soundstage etc)
> And some people prefer a bit more lively wider sounding music - so they choose to add preamp (maybe some tubes) or hp amp.
> ...


What a nice refreshing post 👍
Too many threads here tend to descend into “lively discussion” ….
With the Dave I’d guess there’s the minimum of components in the signal path, and even less in pure DAC mode, but with say a good quality tube preamp there could be less components as the design is quite simple enough to allow point to point wiring and no PCB or semiconductor ground substrate, but as you say in the end it’s up to the preference of each individual, and the quality of the recording and engineering to attempt to get transparency back to the original performance …
Maybe no coincidence that Rob Watts has turned his attentions towards a pro ADC ?


----------



## Sampajanna

Triode User said:


> And of course with the Statement you get to use the new Innuos 2.0 app which has a great user interface.
> 
> A number of Chord owners have been using the AudioWise SRC-DX usb to bnc convertor and there is a thread on AS discussing this.


I’ll look into that!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

Got to share this experience when recently purchasing a pair of RCA cables.

On Thursday night 22:00 I ordered online a couple of RCA cables for a pair of Subwoofers I am expecting to arrive shortly. Upon reading up about the merits (or not) of bothering to buy expensive cables for Subwoofers I opted for a fairly highly rated cheap cable the LC-1 from Blue Jeans based in Seattle. So at 01:00 that same night I received an email from Blue Jeans to confirm the products were made and had been despatched to FedEx. Later that morning FedEx sent an email saying they would deliver today, Monday. The products arrived at 13:00 today.
That is, by a country mile, the best service I have experienced for any electrical product on an overseas order. UK customs alone can normally be relied upon to hold electrical goods up for at least a week. Anyway, bloody well done Blue Jeans and FedEx. Impressed.


----------



## number1sixerfan (Jul 19, 2021)

alxw0w said:


> Nope it's not imagined. You will always lose transparency/immediacy (as many other things) of the sound when using preamp/hp amp.
> But on the other hand it doesn't change your subjective perception of sound and how you like your system to sound.
> Some people prefer RAW uncolored sound (even though for some folks it may look like it's dull, lacking dynamics, lacking soundstage etc)
> And some people prefer a bit more lively wider sounding music - so they choose to add preamp (maybe some tubes) or hp amp.
> ...



Yes, I understand that. The point is in the real world, is it quantifiable or significant (not talking charts)? My answer to that is barely, if at all, with quality components. I've not told anyone what to do with their system, and certainly we can acknowledge that we all hear different, but when you have people saying a "Dave is no longer a Dave" when used with an amp, you enter a certain realm of ridiculousness imho. I've seen newer members in this thread adopt the idea that the Dave can't and shouldn't be used with an amp, and it's bit silly, so yea I think it's valuable to state so.

Again, I'd very much love to see well thought out impressions and comparisons vs. vague blanket, recycled statements.


----------



## alxw0w (Jul 19, 2021)

number1sixerfan said:


> Again, I'd very much love to see well thought out impressions and comparisons vs. vague blanket, recycled statements.


My view is based on such comparisons.
Dave direct vs Dave and headphone amplifier (Ive also made similar comparisons using TT 1 directly driving power amplifier vs TT1 using preamp between an power amp also with hugo2 and Dave but in different systems). And there was noticable difference. Some people would say it was small some would say it was big. That always a personal thing. To me the choice was fairly obvious I prefer headphones to be directly driven by the Dave.
When I state my opinion I always make sure that it's based on my experience not on some deluded information heard on the internet. (If I don't have personal experience I'll always try to mark that)

Oh and one more thing I'm not telling that everybody should like the same things that I like. But the statement that the difference is negligible is just plain false.


----------



## number1sixerfan

alxw0w said:


> My view is based on such comparisons.
> Dave direct vs Dave and headphone amplifier (Ive also made similar comparisons using TT 1 directly driving power amplifier vs TT1 using preamp between an power amp also with hugo2 and Dave but in different systems). And there was noticable difference. Some people would say it was small some would say it was big. That always a personal thing. To me the choice was fairly obvious I prefer headphones to be directly driven by the Dave.
> When I state my opinion I always make sure that it's based on my experience not on some deluded information heard on the internet. (If I don't have personal experience I'll always try to mark that)



I'm not questioning your view. I was talking broadly when I stated that I simply have not seen such comparisons well stated/documented. 



alxw0w said:


> Oh and one more thing I'm not telling that everybody should like the same things that I like. But the statement that the difference is negligible is just plain false.



To you. And that's totally fine. We just disagree here and it's totally subjective. But as you said in your prior post, I agree with encouraging people to explore and determine for themselves. I understand that it could be a larger difference to someone else, and I'm totally fine if someone feels that way. I just think it's important to push back against the purist, hard stances that repeatedly resurface (again, that's not at all how you've posted, I'm specifically talking about sentiment such as "the dave isnt the dave...").


----------



## saudio7

alxw0w said:


> My view is based on such comparisons.
> Dave direct vs Dave and headphone amplifier (Ive also made similar comparisons using TT 1 directly driving power amplifier vs TT1 using preamp between an power amp also with hugo2 and Dave but in different systems). And there was noticable difference. Some people would say it was small some would say it was big. That always a personal thing. To me the choice was fairly obvious I prefer headphones to be directly driven by the Dave.
> When I state my opinion I always make sure that it's based on my experience not on some deluded information heard on the internet. (If I don't have personal experience I'll always try to mark that)
> 
> Oh and one more thing I'm not telling that everybody should like the same things that I like. But the statement that the difference is negligible is just plain false.


Not with all amps, you are generalizing, one example is Niimbus US4+, you don’t lose anything.


----------



## alxw0w

saudio7 said:


> Not with all amps, you are generalizing, one example is Niimbus US4+, you don’t lose anything.


Haven't heard nimbus, but if you say so.


----------



## omniweltall (Jul 19, 2021)

alxw0w said:


> My view is based on such comparisons.
> Dave direct vs Dave and headphone amplifier (Ive also made similar comparisons using TT 1 directly driving power amplifier vs TT1 using preamp between an power amp also with hugo2 and Dave but in different systems). And there was noticable difference. Some people would say it was small some would say it was big. That always a personal thing. To me the choice was fairly obvious I prefer headphones to be directly driven by the Dave.
> When I state my opinion I always make sure that it's based on my experience not on some deluded information heard on the internet. (If I don't have personal experience I'll always try to mark that)
> 
> Oh and one more thing I'm not telling that everybody should like the same things that I like. But the statement that the difference is negligible is just plain false.


Your observation is actually quite common. I noted similar observations, but with Hugo 1 and 2. A friend of mine noted similar findings with the Dave. 

Not sure why though. Chord is unique in this way, I guess. We tried quite a number of good amps, especially my friend who has really good amps. And no, we haven't tried ALL the amps in the universe.


----------



## sm60 (Jul 19, 2021)

audio_1 said:


> To make money! There is no way a pre-amp, pair of interconnects, power cord etc. can sound as good as Dave direct to a power amp in a loudspeaker system imho.


That’s your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. I can only speak from my 30+ years of experience listening to digital equipment, starting from the earliest CD playback equipment. As a EE Masters engineer and PhD in CS, when Sony introduced its first Discman portable CD player in the late 1980s, I bought one naively thinking that if the published specs were right, the high end audio problem was solved, at least in terms of the source. When I hooked it up to my grad school audio system, which even then had a very good Spendor SP1 speakers and a Well Tempered turntable, the Sony portable CD player sounded like crap, weak and emaciated. I realized that all the published specs about distortion were just meaningless. Since then I never had cause to doubt my initial impressions. I have lost track of how many high end audio DACs I have used, but in every case, straight through connections to power amplifiers never produced the best sound. When you digitally reduce the volume down by -30 to -40 dB, you throw away a lot of bits and all this talk of transparency goes out the window. Don’t get fooled by published specs in digital audio. Most of the time it is heavily compressed.

I’d love to get rid of all my analog equipment and stream direct digitally to my loudspeakers. Theoretically that should produce the best sound. In practice it doesn’t. I even purchased a pair of Devialet Phantom Gold digital speakers, which are the world’s highest rated loudspeakers in terms of their published specs. They each have a 5000 watt digital amplifier in them and go as low as 15 Hz and can play up to 120dB with vanishingly low distortion. Guess what? They don’t sound anywhere as good as my old antique pair of bookshelf Spendor S3/5, which are derived from the  legendary BBC LS3/5s. 

The ear is not easily fooled. Published specs like total harmonic distortion seem to have little correlation with how something sounds to our ears. My only reference is the sound of live music. Does a loudspeaker sound in any way like a real concert? Does a voice sound like a real person speaking? Does a piano sound like it does live? Or a guitar? Most high end audio sounds like crap compared to live music. Each day I listen to high bit rate records on Qobuz, and each day I wonder why high end audio systems sound so terrible compared to the live sound.

The only designer who called it as he saw it was the legendary Peter Walker, who designed the Quad electro stats. When asked what he thought of his speakers, he said they were pretty terrible. And this is the lowest distortion speakers you can get on the market even today.  We are far from getting anywhere in terms of accurate reproduction of sound. Specs mean very little, sadly. I wish that were not the case. Harbeth designer Alan Shaw used his ears to design his legendary Monitor 40 because every cone material he tried sounded awful to his ears. He finally got a grant from the British government and teamed up with a local university to understand how to measure coloration in loudspeakers. It took several years, but they finally figured out why all the standard measuring tools were all wrong snd designed a new way to measure loudspeakers. This explains why Harbeth outsells every other company in its price range. Their speakers sell for considerably more than anyone else who makes similar speakers. You are paying for all the years of research into loudspeaker coloration. On voices they are simply unparalleled. But if you measure them in terms of total harmonic distortion, they don’t measure better than Quads. But play a voice through them or strings from an orchestra and watch your jaw hit the floor. Mr Shaw had the courage to question conventional wisdom and think afresh. That’s what we need.


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## jlbrach

alxw0w said:


> My view is based on such comparisons.
> Dave direct vs Dave and headphone amplifier (Ive also made similar comparisons using TT 1 directly driving power amplifier vs TT1 using preamp between an power amp also with hugo2 and Dave but in different systems). And there was noticable difference. Some people would say it was small some would say it was big. That always a personal thing. To me the choice was fairly obvious I prefer headphones to be directly driven by the Dave.
> When I state my opinion I always make sure that it's based on my experience not on some deluded information heard on the internet. (If I don't have personal experience I'll always try to mark that)
> 
> Oh and one more thing I'm not telling that everybody should like the same things that I like. But the statement that the difference is negligible is just plain false.


agreed, assuming the HP you are using can be driven properly by the dave...since I use the susvara and the abyss TC I have no choice but to use an external amp but when I used the utopia focal and went straight out of the dave


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## Ragnar-BY

sm60 said:


> When you digitally reduce the volume down by -30 to -40 dB, you throw away a lot of bits and all this talk of transparency goes out the window.


Depends on DAC. I've heard a lot of gear where digital volume regulation was affecting sound. Digital attenuation can sound compressed, but not in the case DAVE. I specifically tested the difference between the analog attenuator of the two integrated amplifiers and DAVE's digital adjustment. Each time DAVE was either better, or at least not worse. Same story was with TT2 - Rob's volume regulation implementation seems to be lossless.


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## Currawong

Articnoise said:


> Yes I also prefer the sound of TT2 in DAC mode vs amp mode. My amp can handel the TT2's output thou.





tunes said:


> Does changing the input level attenuation have any effect on the headphone performance and will it void the warranty?  Also, why are XLR outputs on DAVE better? Can I leave the speakers connected via XLR and also keep the Amp connected via RCA out?  Does the amp sound any better with XLR vs RCA??
> 
> Thanks for your help.





atya35mm said:


> Talking about interconnects, to all the Dave owners pairing with balanced amplifier, do you prefer XLR or RCA connection to amp? From reading both Dave and WA33, I see Rob Watts of Chord recommending RCA out and Woo Audio recommending XLR in for WA33 due to balanced design.
> 
> I did some testing with the WA33 in my own setup, and I prefer the RCA connection. While I feel XLR provides slightly bigger soundstage / space, there is bit of harshness introduced somehow to my ears and sounds less engaging. Not an expert in all the audiophile terms so that's my impression. Also have to say it's not a fair apples to apples test, as the RCA cables I have on hand is 3x the retail price of the XLR. But they are all below USD <$1000. So not talking crazy cables.
> 
> Would be keen to get other's experience!



The problem, I think, is how the amplifier is set-up. Most amplifiers attenuate on input -- that is, the volume control is connected to the inputs. Thus, it doesn't matter what the DAVE is set to, as the only thing it will affect is the range of volume that can be set for ideal output on the amplifier.

However, some amplifiers have the attenuation between gain stages, sometimes as a current-to-voltage converter if they use current gain (Audio-gd is a good example as they use current-mode transmission between components, so the volume can't be on the voltage input, but has to be on the output of the current gain stage). With these amps, you can overload the input stage with too high a voltage, such as the DAVE outputs in "DAC" mode.

Then there's the issue of balanced amps. If I use the example of the Luxman P-750u I have here, it is a balanced amp, but (IIRC) it uses an opamp to provide SE to BAL conversion internally, so the SE inputs will be a bit poorer (as they were on the old P-1u). Thus, the XLR outputs of the DAVE might be the better option here.


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## sm60

Ragnar-BY said:


> Depends on DAC. I've heard a lot of gear where digital volume regulation was affecting sound. Digital attenuation can sound compressed, but not in the case DAVE. I specifically tested the difference between the analog attenuator of the two integrated amplifiers and DAVE's digital adjustment. Each time DAVE was either better, or at least not worse. Same story was with TT2 - Rob's volume regulation implementation seems to be lossless.


I just came out of a two week listening session with the Dave in preamp mode hooked up to a pair of solid state amplifiers into my Quads 2905.  Sounded fine, but I was beginning to find my listening sessions were not enjoyable as I found myself irritated by something or another on many recordings. Switching to my ARC Reference preamp with the Dave in DAC mode completely transformed the sound. The sound stage expanded vertically and horizontally, each instrument just blossomed forth seemingly billowing like they do in a concert (a single oboe in a large concert hall can sound shockingly large, something you almost never hear on a recording). Again, it’s not surprising and it is exactly what I found when I compared the preamp mode on my dCS Elgar 25 years ago with a previous generation ARC Ref tube preamp.

The preamp mode is a nice freebie to have with Dave as it is with other DACs, as well as the headphone mode. Neither of these will ever displace the need for a great preamp or headphone amplifier. It depends on your system and listening preferences. But on a truly high end reference speaker like the Quad 2905, the differences between DAC mode and preamp mode are shockingly obvious. I think that’s the primary reason no high end audio company that makes electronics does not offer a preamp. For my money I’d rather spend my money on a high end preamp than an external power supply for the Dave. I don’t find the digital volume control on the Dave ”lossless”. That would be a theoretical impossibility in the world of digital signal processing. One thing often forgotten is how misleading distortion specifications are in the  digital world. A distortion measurement on a CD player or DAC only makes sense with respect to the signal level. For example, in the 16 bit case of CD replay, distortion is specified as -96dB, which sounds impressive, but it is with respect to 0 dB full signal level. Say you are recording Mahler Symphony No 8, a huge piece for 200 instruments and hundreds of singers. The crescendos are massive, so to avoid overloading, which is disastrous in digital audio, you record at a relatively low level. A single oboe might be recorded at -40 dB or even -50dB from 0dB. At such low levels distortion is much much higher. The resolution is also very low, a few bits at most capturing the oboe and other woodwinds. No wonder that on my several thousand orchestral recordings that I own, the woodwinds sound weak and emancipated compared to what you hear live. 

Our ears are highly nonlinear and the resolution is dynamically adjusted with respect to background level. It’s like the spatial variable resolution foveation in our eyes, which work completely differently from digital cameras, where a tiny center in the retina has a massive number of receptors. We use auditory attention to focus on a soft sound like on oboe. In digital audio, where everything is linear, oboes in an orchestra are reproduced really poorly because at -40dB down, the resolution really suffers. At least, that’s my rationalization for why digital audio still sucks. I think a redesigned digital  system based on how our hearing works will sound much better, but that’s not likely to happen, anymore than the chance that digital cameras are going to be redesigned to work like our eyes (incidentally, digital cameras don’t see color, since the CCD array only responds to grayscale, and digital cameras use the Bayer color filter array to “guess” what the true color is by comparing neighboring elements, thus throwing away 3/4 of the signal, which is why no digital camera on earth sees as well as the human eye in either low light or gets the colors right).


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## Triode User (Jul 22, 2021)

sm60 said:


> I just came out of a two week listening session with the Dave in preamp mode hooked up to a pair of solid state amplifiers into my Quads 2905.  Sounded fine, but I was beginning to find my listening sessions were not enjoyable as I found myself irritated by something or another on many recordings. Switching to my ARC Reference preamp with the Dave in DAC mode completely transformed the sound. The sound stage expanded vertically and horizontally, each instrument just blossomed forth seemingly billowing like they do in a concert (a single oboe in a large concert hall can sound shockingly large, something you almost never hear on a recording). Again, it’s not surprising and it is exactly what I found when I compared the preamp mode on my dCS Elgar 25 years ago with a previous generation ARC Ref tube preamp.
> 
> The preamp mode is a nice freebie to have with Dave as it is with other DACs, as well as the headphone mode. Neither of these will ever displace the need for a great preamp or headphone amplifier. It depends on your system and listening preferences. But on a truly high end reference speaker like the Quad 2905, the differences between DAC mode and preamp mode are shockingly obvious. I think that’s the primary reason no high end audio company that makes electronics does not offer a preamp. For my money I’d rather spend my money on a high end preamp than an external power supply for the Dave. I don’t find the digital volume control on the Dave ”lossless”. That would be a theoretical impossibility in the world of digital signal processing. One thing often forgotten is how misleading distortion specifications are in the  digital world. A distortion measurement on a CD player or DAC only makes sense with respect to the signal level. For example, in the 16 bit case of CD replay, distortion is specified as -96dB, which sounds impressive, but it is with respect to 0 dB full signal level. Say you are recording Mahler Symphony No 8, a huge piece for 200 instruments and hundreds of singers. The crescendos are massive, so to avoid overloading, which is disastrous in digital audio, you record at a relatively low level. A single oboe might be recorded at -40 dB or even -50dB from 0dB. At such low levels distortion is much much higher. The resolution is also very low, a few bits at most capturing the oboe and other woodwinds. No wonder that on my several thousand orchestral recordings that I own, the woodwinds sound weak and emancipated compared to what you hear live.
> 
> Our ears are highly nonlinear and the resolution is dynamically adjusted with respect to background level. It’s like the spatial variable resolution foveation in our eyes, which work completely differently from digital cameras, where a tiny center in the retina has a massive number of receptors. We use auditory attention to focus on a soft sound like on oboe. In digital audio, where everything is linear, oboes in an orchestra are reproduced really poorly because at -40dB down, the resolution really suffers. At least, that’s my rationalization for why digital audio still sucks. I think a redesigned digital  system based on how our hearing works will sound much better, but that’s not likely to happen, anymore than the chance that digital cameras are going to be redesigned to work like our eyes (incidentally, digital cameras don’t see color, since the CCD array only responds to grayscale, and digital cameras use the Bayer color filter array to “guess” what the true color is by comparing neighboring elements, thus throwing away 3/4 of the signal, which is why no digital camera on earth sees as well as the human eye in either low light or gets the colors right).


Thanks for the post.

I have also did a similar experiment s few years ago with my Dave and then again more recently. Similar but not the same because rather than use an active preamp I was using a Music First Audio transformer volume control passive pre amp.

With the experiment a few years ago I used a MFA Classic Silver Wound V2 which at the time was the best that I could find. The beauty of using a TVC (transformer volume control) is that they effectively do not add anything to the signal and they take away very very little in terms of quality, transparency etc. For the experiment I set the Dave in preamp mode to a comfortable listening volume say -32dB and then compared the sound quality of that to when I introduced the MFA preamp into the circuit and set Dave to 0dB and the preamp the same volume -32dB. The sound was almost the same but with a slight loss of bass depth and detail and also a slight loss of transparency in the mid range.

I tried the same experiment this year but this time I was using a new MFA Baby Ref V2 TVC passive which has bigger transformers, an improved transformer core and improved winding method. This time the Dave in preamp volume control role and then using the MFA Baby Ref for volume control was the same as near as makes no real difference to my ears. It was the same thing at lower listening levels as well. That in my definition is a great preamp, ie it makes no difference to the sound quality. I have of course gone back to using the Dave for volume control and the MFA is used in a system with a Qutest which does not have volume control.

@Rob Watts has posted at least once and probably more times explaining why his method of digital volume control does not result in audible (or actual?) loss of sound quality but I am happy that to my ears I cannot find any loss of quality when using it and I am happy that I have proved that to my own satisfaction.

If I may be so bold I suggest that what you are hearing with your ‘great’ active preamp is a colouring of the sound which appeals to your ears. In your mind this is more accurate but I would suggest this is perhaps more accurate to the sound you want to hear and not more accurate in absolute terms. I have had valve preamps of various sorts over the last 40 years and I loved the sound which was always glorious and could sound wonderful. But it was not what I would call properly accurate and of late I have grown to prefer the Dave being used for volume control into my Pass Labs XA60.8 mono blocks.

Just to mention as well that you dismiss using a third party power supply for the Dave and yet you have not heard one. I think I recall you saying that this was because you wanted to use the Dave sounding as the designer intended it to sound rather than altering the sound by using the third party power supply and yet you are recommending fundamentally altering the sound of the Dave by adding an active tube preamp.

I have tried my Dave with preamps from Pass Labs, Icon Audio and others, some with tubes and some ss so I know what they can do and so I do see why some people like them. Before you dismiss the third party power supply route for the Dave I think you ought to at least hear one. To me ears it just takes what the Dave does and allows it to be a bit more ‘Dave’ in its sound. I use the Sean Jacobs DC4, soon to be upgraded to the ARC6 version, I really could only go back to the stock Dave with great difficulty.

It will probably be that in the end you and I will have to agree to disagree on this and that you will continue to use your ARC Reference preamp and I will continue to use my DC4 power supply and we will both be happy. So thanks for your post but at least hopefully you will understand why I do not use an active preamp with my Dave. 😀


----------



## Sampajanna

Triode User said:


> Thanks for the post.
> 
> I have also did a similar experiment s few years ago with my Dave and then again more recently. Similar but not the same because rather than use an active preamp I was using a Music First Audio transformer volume control passive pre amp.
> 
> ...


Amen to no preamp and to DC4s… I tried the PS Audio BHK preamp. It opened the soundstage at the expense of glare and a loss of transparency, cohesiveness and dynamics. It was less musical. That said, there really is something to finding “your sound.”  For me that came with the AVM flagship monos, which do have a tube input stage that adds ever so slight spice with no loss of transparency. They compete solidly with far more expensive amps! As for the DC4, I would honestly think about selling my Dave without the DC4…


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## alxw0w

Triode User said:


> f I may be so bold I suggest that what you are hearing with your ‘great’ active preamp is a colouring of the sound which appeals to your ears. In your mind this is more accurate but I would suggest this is perhaps more accurate to the sound you want to hear and not more accurate in absolute terms.


This, I couldn't express this better myself.


----------



## Triode User

Sampajanna said:


> Amen to no preamp and to DC4s… I tried the PS Audio BHK preamp. It opened the soundstage at the expense of glare and a loss of transparency, cohesiveness and dynamics. It was less musical. That said, there really is something to finding “your sound.”  For me that came with the AVM flagship monos, which do have a tube input stage that adds ever so slight spice with no loss of transparency. They compete solidly with far more expensive amps! As for the DC4, I would honestly think about selling my Dave without the DC4…


Wait for the ARC6 DC4. I am listening to a pre-production one at the moment that Sean has loaned to me and asked what I think compared to the 'normal' DC4.

It is a big grins morning here!!


----------



## x RELIC x

sm60 said:


> I just came out of a two week listening session with the Dave in preamp mode hooked up to a pair of solid state amplifiers into my Quads 2905.  Sounded fine, but I was beginning to find my listening sessions were not enjoyable as I found myself irritated by something or another on many recordings. Switching to my ARC Reference preamp with the Dave in DAC mode completely transformed the sound. The sound stage expanded vertically and horizontally, each instrument just blossomed forth seemingly billowing like they do in a concert (a single oboe in a large concert hall can sound shockingly large, something you almost never hear on a recording). Again, it’s not surprising and it is exactly what I found when I compared the preamp mode on my dCS Elgar 25 years ago with a previous generation ARC Ref tube preamp.
> 
> The preamp mode is a nice freebie to have with Dave as it is with other DACs, as well as the headphone mode. Neither of these will ever displace the need for a great preamp or headphone amplifier. It depends on your system and listening preferences. But on a truly high end reference speaker like the Quad 2905, the differences between DAC mode and preamp mode are shockingly obvious. I think that’s the primary reason no high end audio company that makes electronics does not offer a preamp. For my money I’d rather spend my money on a high end preamp than an external power supply for the Dave. I don’t find the digital volume control on the Dave ”lossless”. That would be a theoretical impossibility in the world of digital signal processing. One thing often forgotten is how misleading distortion specifications are in the  digital world. A distortion measurement on a CD player or DAC only makes sense with respect to the signal level. For example, in the 16 bit case of CD replay, distortion is specified as -96dB, which sounds impressive, but it is with respect to 0 dB full signal level. Say you are recording Mahler Symphony No 8, a huge piece for 200 instruments and hundreds of singers. The crescendos are massive, so to avoid overloading, which is disastrous in digital audio, you record at a relatively low level. A single oboe might be recorded at -40 dB or even -50dB from 0dB. At such low levels distortion is much much higher. The resolution is also very low, a few bits at most capturing the oboe and other woodwinds. No wonder that on my several thousand orchestral recordings that I own, the woodwinds sound weak and emancipated compared to what you hear live.
> 
> Our ears are highly nonlinear and the resolution is dynamically adjusted with respect to background level. It’s like the spatial variable resolution foveation in our eyes, which work completely differently from digital cameras, where a tiny center in the retina has a massive number of receptors. We use auditory attention to focus on a soft sound like on oboe. In digital audio, where everything is linear, oboes in an orchestra are reproduced really poorly because at -40dB down, the resolution really suffers. At least, that’s my rationalization for why digital audio still sucks. I think a redesigned digital  system based on how our hearing works will sound much better, but that’s not likely to happen, anymore than the chance that digital cameras are going to be redesigned to work like our eyes (incidentally, digital cameras don’t see color, since the CCD array only responds to grayscale, and digital cameras use the Bayer color filter array to “guess” what the true color is by comparing neighboring elements, thus throwing away 3/4 of the signal, which is why no digital camera on earth sees as well as the human eye in either low light or gets the colors right).


Have you volume matched pre-amp mode to the -3dB level of the DAC mode? It’s the only reason I can think of why you hear such a difference because nothing is bypassed in DAC mode. It’s literally just a preset volume level.

Side note (off topic): Regarding camera sensors, have you heard of the Foveon camera sensor? In simple terms, it responds to light passing through three colour tuned stacked layers for red, green, or blue wavelengths. Each layer records their wavelength tuned colour on the entire sensor surface, so theoretically it can capture every single colour at every pixel simultaneously with the stacked RGB layer information. It was supposed to be the bayer pattern killer long ago (1997-ish), invented by Carver Mead. Then Sigma bought the tech and they haven’t progressed it very far. Ironically, red colour accuracy is a bit of an issue, similar to the earlier days of OLED displays and the colour blue.


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## number1sixerfan (Jul 22, 2021)

Triode User said:


> If I may be so bold I suggest that what you are hearing with your ‘great’ active preamp is a colouring of the sound which appeals to your ears. In your mind this is more accurate but I would suggest this is perhaps more accurate to the sound you want to hear and not more accurate in absolute terms. I have had valve preamps of various sorts over the last 40 years and I loved the sound which was always glorious and could sound wonderful. But it was not what I would call properly accurate and of late I have grown to prefer the Dave being used for volume control into my Pass Labs XA60.8 mono blocks.



Or... it can also be superior pre-amplification, which again is the tradeoff anyone* has to consider when adding a premp with speakers and similarly headphone amps with headphones. To simply reduce this to an absolute affinity for a 'coloring of sound' is a bit of an off base analysis--especially given that the pre-amplification and headphone amplification features of the Dave are not absolute TOTL performance wise. (also, not pointing at what you or I believe, just pointing to a simple issue with that specific line of logic/suggestion)


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## sm60 (Jul 22, 2021)

Triode User said:


> Thanks for the post.
> 
> I have also did a similar experiment s few years ago with my Dave and then again more recently. Similar but not the same because rather than use an active preamp I was using a Music First Audio transformer volume control passive pre amp.
> 
> ...


Again, it comes back to what is more “accurate“. If you think digital truncation of bits is more “accurate”, more power to you. I don’t, knowing the inherent trade offs involved in DSP, and having taken grad level courses in DSP. You need to look at signal to noise ratio of digital audio not w.r.t. 0 dB, which is meaningless, but at the signal level in question. If I truncate the output of Dave to -40dB, the idea that it maintains the same S/N ratio that it does at -3dB or 0dB is absolute poppycock. You haven’t understood how digital audio works then. I suggest reading Alan Oppenheim’s books on DSP or similar grad level textbooks. There’s no free lunch in digital audio. If you believe that, their marketing propaganda has worked. Pay close attention to how distortion rises sharply in digital audio as signal level drops.

The idea that a balanced tube preamplifier with distortion levels around 0.001% is obviously coloring the sound is a bit far fetched. Take a look at the distortion measurements of any recent ARC Reference tube preamp in Stereophile. Or look at McIntosh’s latest model 1100 two chassis tube preamplifier. Their previous generation 1000 preamp came in both solid state and tube versions. For the 1100, they decided to only release the tube version, because, and I’m quoting here, “it is the quietest preamplifier McIntosh has ever designed”. Check out its specs on their web page.

if you think running Dave in preamp mode is the most accurate, I strongly disagree and challenge you to produce measurements that back up your claim (i.e., show me the Dave at -40dB maintains the same S/N ratio it does at 0dB). If you say I like the sound of Dave as a preamp, I can’t argue with you. That’s your personal choice and we are all entitled our choice. Just don’t claim it’s because it’s more accurate. That I’d like to see a proof for.

Regarding the use of external power supplies for Dave, that’s again your choice whether you want to plonk down 10 grand for an external power supply for a DAC that’s already hugely overpriced (The Topping DAC decodes more formats  than the Dave, measures better, and costs 1/10th the price, just in case you think the Dave is priced reasonably). But it’s your decision and your money. Once again, I have seen no measurements of any kind that support using the external power supply for the Dave. Does it improve the S/N ratio? Can you measure the improvement? It’s a risky business in any case. If it blows up the Dave, you’re out of not only the money spent on the Dave, but the power supply as well. At least in the case of Naim, they design their products for external power supplies and support it in case something bad happens. Here you are completely screwed if there’s a power glitch and the Dave fries (don’t forget DSP chips are notoriously fickle about static and they are very sensitive to even slight glitches in a power supply).


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## Sampajanna

why aren’t you using a Topping then?


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## sm60

Sampajanna said:


> why aren’t you using a Topping then?


Great question! One I ask myself every week. 😀. Each time I look at the clunky setup with the Blu Mk2 and the Dave, which my wife refers to as “the spaceship”, I view it as another of my insanities. Originally I got the Blu Mk2 with the Dave because I liked its compact form factor, its ability to be used as a preamp and to drive a pair of headphones. If I downsize my setup, which is a bit excessive, I thought the Blu/Dave would be great to have since they would fit in a small space.  But the Blu proved so unreliable as a transport, the Dave is so underwhelming as a headphone amplifier and the software so glitchy that it produces a blast of digital noise every time I power down the Blu or the Dave that I realized the idiocy of owning this overpriced combo! If I told my colleagues I have a digital playback device that costs over 15 grand and is very unreliable, they’d suggest I urgently seek psychiatric help!


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## Sampajanna (Jul 23, 2021)

Have u listened to a Topping? Or done A/B with a Dave? Measurements don’t mean much. We don’t eat chemical goop based on some lab report of what is nutritional. You cannot measure something when the quality itself in the end is mostly subjective. You can’t do crowd based statistical research either, because it doesn’t matter what percentage of the crowd says chocolate tastes better if my mouth always says different. Even if measurements of brain waves said that strawberry was worse and 99% of people agreed, decreasing production of strawberry ice cream and making it more expenisive, it would still be worth it to me if I got more joy out of eating it. Joy is end game here, not solid measurements. Enjoyment! That is the only standard worth anything. If engineering measurements help that, great. If they don’t, then they don’t matter. The variety of products out there in terms of engineering methods shows that there is no golden standard that can correlate measurements with human enjoyment across the board. We are too different from one another, listening to different music and looking for different things in that music/experience. If measurements are a part of what brings you joy and offers pride of ownership or a feeling that it was money well spent, then good for you. Manufacturers offer specs, so you can use them to map your way. I have no issue with that and even do it myself. But the measurement crowd is always gaslighting—always trying to tell me what I am experiencing and that my enjoyment isn’t real. Some of the subjective crowd do as well. But gaslighting people’s harmless enjoyment is being a partypooper, a bummer, a downer… if we are going to offer opinions here, it should be of the stuff we actually tried. We should discuss what we heard and why we liked it better. Why it was more enjoyable. That contributes something meaningful and helps me make better decisions about what to try myself…that’s my two cents.

IMHO the unreliability u r experiencing is maybe a good enough reason to look elsewhere. I understand budget. Everybody has to face that, or most of us at least. We are lucky that there are good products at almost any price range these days. I don’t think the Dave Is overpriced though. A lot more went into it than a Topping DAC, in a different county with way different overhead, research and development processes and corporate structure. It contains intellectual property beyond the materials, in other words. It also can compete with dacs way beyond it in price, especially if you add a DC4


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## x RELIC x

@sm60 

Please see this quote from Rob, or search for "digital truncation" quotes by @Rob Watts 



Rob Watts said:


> Yes - as the digital data-path (from input right through to the pulse array outputs) is better than 350 dB, so all truncation errors are eliminated - thus a major change in volume will have no effect on detail resolution and (more critically) depth perception.


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## Rob Watts (Jul 23, 2021)

sm60 said:


> Again, it comes back to what is more “accurate“. If you think digital truncation of bits is more “accurate”, more power to you. I don’t, knowing the inherent trade offs involved in DSP, and having taken grad level courses in DSP. You need to look at signal to noise ratio of digital audio not w.r.t. 0 dB, which is meaningless, but at the signal level in question. If I truncate the output of Dave to -40dB, the idea that it maintains the same S/N ratio that it does at -3dB or 0dB is absolute poppycock. You haven’t understood how digital audio works then. I suggest reading Alan Oppenheim’s books on DSP or similar grad level textbooks. There’s no free lunch in digital audio. If you believe that, their marketing propaganda has worked. Pay close attention to how distortion rises sharply in digital audio as signal level drops.
> 
> The idea that a balanced tube preamplifier with distortion levels around 0.001% is obviously coloring the sound is a bit far fetched. Take a look at the distortion measurements of any recent ARC Reference tube preamp in Stereophile. Or look at McIntosh’s latest model 1100 two chassis tube preamplifier. Their previous generation 1000 preamp came in both solid state and tube versions. For the 1100, they decided to only release the tube version, because, and I’m quoting here, “it is the quietest preamplifier McIntosh has ever designed”. Check out its specs on their web page.
> 
> ...


Sorry but you are incorrect. The output from the volume control is simply not truncated - nor is it dithered - but aggressively noise shaped, so that the signals within the audio bandwidth are perfectly preserved. By perfectly, I mean it will reproduce a -301dB signal to an accuracy better than +/-0.001 dB and with a phase shift of within +/- 0.001 degrees; this level of accuracy is essential in order to maintain the perception of depth and detail resolution. To illustrate the power of this noise shaper look at the 16FS output of the M scaler's truncator to 24 bits:








You can see that the noise floor is at -390dB - and this is actually down to my test vectors. The noise shaper starts to kick in at around 16 kHz. Subjectively, this is completely transparent, in that there is no loss in SQ if a digital module can reproduce -301dB with zero amplitude or phase errors - from this perspective, then the volume control function can be considered lossless. All of my modules have to pass this demanding test, plus of course listening tests, before they can be incorporated into a design.

This approach is very radical, and to some would be considered excessive; but after many listening tests, it is the only way to accurately reproduce soundstage depth. Generally, digital volume controls are not done with such aggressive 11th order noise shaping - they are normally dithered when truncating, which is subjectively not lossless. Some don't even do that, just discard bits, which is just plain stupid/incompetent due to the severe small signal distortions introduced.

PS - just so you can see the -301.03 dB signal zoomed in:




The level is -301.030 dB, against -301.299957 dB ideal value


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...oops. Back to online grad school this time. 😉


----------



## miketlse

MarkusBarkus said:


> ...oops. Back to online grad school this time. 😉


I don't think attending grad school was the problem here. 

The problem arose because of forgetting to first check if the mathematical model for digital volume control studied at grad school (or described in the books), was the same as the mathematical model used in the DAVE for digital volume control - before posting and making incorrect claims.

Grad school can teach theory, but not common sense or experience.


----------



## Triode User

miketlse said:


> I don't think attending grad school was the problem here.
> 
> The problem arose because of forgetting to first check if the mathematical model for digital volume control studied at grad school (or described in the books), was the same as the mathematical model used in the DAVE for digital volume control - before posting and making incorrect claims.
> 
> Grad school can teach theory, but not common sense or experience.


Also, i knew I was comparing the sound of the Dave pre amp output to an almost totally transparent pre amp with virtually no noise and no distortion (the Music First Baby Ref V2).

All good fun.


----------



## penguin69 (Jul 23, 2021)

sm60 said:


> When you digitally reduce the volume down by -30 to -40 dB, you throw away a lot of bits and all this talk of transparency goes out the window.


I think @Rob Watts produced a slide deck a couple of years ago showing why his digital attenuation design does not compromise SQ. If I can find the link, I will post it. Agree, though, that digital volume controls degrade SQ in standard designs as you are throwing away information. (I've designed one or two myself.)

EDIT: apologies, I was reading the posts in chronological order and see now that Rob has already replied.


----------



## jlbrach (Jul 23, 2021)

sm60 said:


> Great question! One I ask myself every week. 😀. Each time I look at the clunky setup with the Blu Mk2 and the Dave, which my wife refers to as “the spaceship”, I view it as another of my insanities. Originally I got the Blu Mk2 with the Dave because I liked its compact form factor, its ability to be used as a preamp and to drive a pair of headphones. If I downsize my setup, which is a bit excessive, I thought the Blu/Dave would be great to have since they would fit in a small space.  But the Blu proved so unreliable as a transport, the Dave is so underwhelming as a headphone amplifier and the software so glitchy that it produces a blast of digital noise every time I power down the Blu or the Dave that I realized the idiocy of owning this overpriced combo! If I told my colleagues I have a digital playback device that costs over 15 grand and is very unreliable, they’d suggest I urgently seek psychiatric help!


go figure, I love my dave/blu2 combo...it has been stable and performed beautifully for me and I think the dave headphone out is marvelous as long as you arent using a few of the hardest to drive headphones


----------



## sm60

Sampajanna said:


> Have u listened to a Topping? Or done A/B with a Dave? Measurements don’t mean much. We don’t eat chemical goop based on some lab report of what is nutritional. You cannot measure something when the quality itself in the end is mostly subjective. You can’t do crowd based statistical research either, because it doesn’t matter what percentage of the crowd says chocolate tastes better if my mouth always says different. Even if measurements of brain waves said that strawberry was worse and 99% of people agreed, decreasing production of strawberry ice cream and making it more expenisive, it would still be worth it to me if I got more joy out of eating it. Joy is end game here, not solid measurements. Enjoyment! That is the only standard worth anything. If engineering measurements help that, great. If they don’t, then they don’t matter. The variety of products out there in terms of engineering methods shows that there is no golden standard that can correlate measurements with human enjoyment across the board. We are too different from one another, listening to different music and looking for different things in that music/experience. If measurements are a part of what brings you joy and offers pride of ownership or a feeling that it was money well spent, then good for you. Manufacturers offer specs, so you can use them to map your way. I have no issue with that and even do it myself. But the measurement crowd is always gaslighting—always trying to tell me what I am experiencing and that my enjoyment isn’t real. Some of the subjective crowd do as well. But gaslighting people’s harmless enjoyment is being a partypooper, a bummer, a downer… if we are going to offer opinions here, it should be of the stuff we actually tried. We should discuss what we heard and why we liked it better. Why it was more enjoyable. That contributes something meaningful and helps me make better decisions about what to try myself…that’s my two cents.
> 
> IMHO the unreliability u r experiencing is maybe a good enough reason to look elsewhere. I understand budget. Everybody has to face that, or most of us at least. We are lucky that there are good products at almost any price range these days. I don’t think the Dave Is overpriced though. A lot more went into it than a Topping DAC, in a different county with way different overhead, research and development processes and corporate structure. It contains intellectual property beyond the materials, in other words. It also can compete with dacs way beyond it in price, especially if you add a DC4


I agree measurements don’t tell the whole story especially in digital audio. But they do dispel some myths. For example, if you feed the Dave a 24 bit signal, you might think the Dave can actually resolve all 24 bits. In fact, its resolution is less than 20 bits — see measurements in Stereophile. This is not a put down of the Dave. It is a very good DAC in terms of its measurements, better than many. No DAC actually resolves all 24 bits! It’s all marketing hoopla, now made worse by the fact that every cheap CD player uses 32-bit D-to-A converters. Of course, when you measure these converters, their linearity is often worse than even 24-bit converters. Recent Esoteric DACs claim to use 35-bit DACs. I’m waiting for some company to claim it is using 64 or even 128-bit DACs. You can make up any story you want in high end audio, but when you do simple measurements, you see it’s all marketing fluff. It’s like Roon advertising its HQ-player can upsample everything to DSD 512. Golly, now all your 16-bit recordings are magically transformed to DSD 512 remastered recordings. Of course, when you listen to these, often it sounds worse than just playing back the un-upsampled tracks. It’s like thinking if I take a NTSC 480i TV signal and upsample it to 4K or 8K, voila, all my old NTSC VCR tapes or TV broadcasts are 4K or 8K now!


----------



## iDesign

jlbrach said:


> go figure, I love my dave/blu2 combo...it has been stable and performed beautifully for me and I think the dave headphone out is marvelous as long as you arent using a few of the hardest to drive headphones


Same experience.


----------



## miketlse

sm60 said:


> But they do dispel some myths. For example, if you feed the Dave a 24 bit signal, you might think the Dave can actually resolve all 24 bits. In fact, its resolution is less than 20 bits — see measurements in Stereophile.


Rob has already openly posted that DAVE + MScaler will perfectly resolve to 16.2 bits (i think that was the decimal place), and that to perfectly resolve 24 bits would require DAVE + 256MScaler.
I don't think anyone is being conned on this issue.


----------



## Rob Watts

sm60 said:


> I agree measurements don’t tell the whole story especially in digital audio. But they do dispel some myths. For example, if you feed the Dave a 24 bit signal, you might think the Dave can actually resolve all 24 bits. In fact, its resolution is less than 20 bits — see measurements in Stereophile. This is not a put down of the Dave. It is a very good DAC in terms of its measurements, better than many. No DAC actually resolves all 24 bits! It’s all marketing hoopla, now made worse by the fact that every cheap CD player uses 32-bit D-to-A converters. Of course, when you measure these converters, their linearity is often worse than even 24-bit converters. Recent Esoteric DACs claim to use 35-bit DACs. I’m waiting for some company to claim it is using 64 or even 128-bit DACs. You can make up any story you want in high end audio, but when you do simple measurements, you see it’s all marketing fluff. It’s like Roon advertising its HQ-player can upsample everything to DSD 512. Golly, now all your 16-bit recordings are magically transformed to DSD 512 remastered recordings. Of course, when you listen to these, often it sounds worse than just playing back the un-upsampled tracks. It’s like thinking if I take a NTSC 480i TV signal and upsample it to 4K or 8K, voila, all my old NTSC VCR tapes or TV broadcasts are 4K or 8K now!



It depends upon what you mean by resolution; your using the term to compare the fixed noise from Dave and using that as resolution, which in Dave's case is 21.3 bits. But that isn't what most people term as resolution in that resolution is defined as the ability to resolve small signals. In the case of Dave it can easily resolve a +/- 1 bit LSB from 32 bits, that is -186dB. Here is a plot from the analogue outputs of Dave showing it resolving -186dB at 2.496kHz:





Of course a -186 dB signal is well below the noise floor of Dave (noise floor is -180dB) and this was done by using the AP's 6kHz sampling and synchronous averaging to reduce noise.

I hadn't published this before, as all of my DACs can do it, and all of them show a +0.6dB amplitude error - since it's consistent error across all my DACs, I am assuming the problem is down to the ADC in the AP - so we will have to await my pulse array ADC to confirm this. 

Defining resolution as equating it to in bandwidth noise is facile, as an inaudible fixed noise is inaudible; what is vitally important subjectively is how well small signals are actually resolved in terms of amplitude.




miketlse said:


> Rob has already openly posted that DAVE + MScaler will perfectly resolve to 16.2 bits (i think that was the decimal place), and that to perfectly resolve 24 bits would require DAVE + 256MScaler.
> I don't think anyone is being conned on this issue.



Yes I used the term to indicate that 1M taps with WTA would give 16.7 bits of coefficients that were ideal Whittaker Shannon accuracy, and so would reconstruct the timing of transients to a better accuracy than this. Unfortunately, this is a bit of a simplified picture, as reconstructing transients perfectly is a great deal more complex than this!

My recent research is indicating that we need much better accuracy than 16.7 bits - the ear/brain is extremely sensitive to vanishingly small timing errors.


----------



## Triode User

Rob Watts said:


> My recent research is indicating that we need much better accuracy than 16.7 bits - the ear/brain is extremely sensitive to vanishingly small timing errors.


Rob, I have extracted just one line from your reply and I am going to read between it and sense a new product. 😜

Reading between one line reminds be of the joke, What is the difference between a duck? One of its legs is both the same.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

Rob Watts said:


> My recent research is indicating that we need much better accuracy than 16.7 bits


How many taps do we need for “next level M Scaler” to get subjective improvement comparable to improvement between 500k and 1M in current model? 2M? 24M?


----------



## miketlse

Ragnar-BY said:


> How many taps do we need for “next level M Scaler” to get subjective improvement comparable to improvement between 500k and 1M in current model? 2M? 24M?


Buried in some of Robs historical posts, is the comment that doubling the number of taps, increases the accuracy by 1 bit.
So a doubling the taps via a 2MScaler would enable 17.7 bit accuracy.
A further doubling via a 4MScaler would enable 18.7 bit accuracy.
And so on, until a 256MScaler would enable 24.7 bit accuracy.

Of course that relates to the mathematical model, describing the technical performance.

The subjective performance, which involves the non-linear ear/brain processing - probably only Rob knows the reality (based on current testing).


----------



## The Jester (Jul 24, 2021)

@rob,
With ever increasing small signal accuracy giving better depth perception and our own ability to perceive relative distances in sound, similar to the way we perceive direction from minor timing differences from ear to ear ?
Is it possible that this is caused by more and more reflected vs direct sound reaching our ears at minute differences in level and timing as the distance increases, and the more accurate those signals are replayed the better we hear depth in recordings ?


----------



## Rob Watts

Ragnar-BY said:


> How many taps do we need for “next level M Scaler” to get subjective improvement comparable to improvement between 500k and 1M in current model? 2M? 24M?



A lot of work has been done on this very issue, and more work is ongoing. Suffice to say that I should have some news next year.



The Jester said:


> @rob,
> With ever increasing small signal accuracy giving better depth perception and our own ability to perceive relative distances in sound, similar to the way we perceive direction from minor timing differences from ear to ear ?
> Is it possible that this is caused by more and more reflected vs direct sound reaching our ears at minute differences in level and timing as the distance increases, and the more accurate those signals are replayed the better we hear depth in recordings ?



I suspect that you are correct - to perceive depth properly we need the depth cues to be preserved in amplitude and relative timing (phase) as accurately as possible.

The puzzle is why we need -301dB with zero phase and amplitude errors - or why an error however small is perceptible - that's the big mystery.


----------



## DJJEZ

Rob Watts said:


> A lot of work has been done on this very issue, and more work is ongoing. _*Suffice to say that I should have some news next year.*_


----------



## sm60

Rob Watts said:


> Sorry but you are incorrect. The output from the volume control is simply not truncated - nor is it dithered - but aggressively noise shaped, so that the signals within the audio bandwidth are perfectly preserved. By perfectly, I mean it will reproduce a -301dB signal to an accuracy better than +/-0.001 dB and with a phase shift of within +/- 0.001 degrees; this level of accuracy is essential in order to maintain the perception of depth and detail resolution. To illustrate the power of this noise shaper look at the 16FS output of the M scaler's truncator to 24 bits:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m sorry, Rob, with all due respect, but your analysis differs from John Atkinson’s measurements in Stereophile, where he showed that the Dave had resolution less than 20 bits. Perhaps you can enlighten us on where his analysis is incorrect. John has been measuring D/A converters for over 20 years, and generally his methodology has been consistent. Feed the D/A a 16-bit signal and measure its S/N ratio and then compare with the result using a 24-bit signal. Ideally, you’d expect to see a 8 dB drop in noise. This never happens. The very best converters manage 21 bits of resolution, meaning the noise drops by 5dB. The Dave is not in this select group, unfortunately.


----------



## sm60

Rob Watts said:


> A lot of work has been done on this very issue, and more work is ongoing. Suffice to say that I should have some news next year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have to resist the impulse to laugh out aloud with all this talk of S/N ratio being -300dB. As I said in high end audio, people make up all kinds of crazy numbers. At this point, I’d be much happier with a Dave and Blu Mk2 that doesn’t audibly distort every time I change inputs or power cycle either component. The sad thing about these products is the lack of any way to update the software except by shipping the units back to the UK to correct their obvious defects. It sounds like the double BNC connection is highly problematic and there’s some kind of synchronization error happening where the Dave is failing to lock on to the clock signal from the Blu2. I’ve experienced this type of digital noise in the late 1980s when external D/A converters were in their infancy (early Theta Digital DACs). Sad to see that 30 years later, some designers haven’t yet figured out how to make products more reliable. I’ve done a number of experiments to figure out what’s wrong with my Dave and Blu2. It looks like either synchronization errors or some fault condition occurring in the DSP itself. The Blu2 transport will work fine for one or two CDs and then, wham, out of the blue, the Dave will start distorting. This never happens with an external CD transport — I have the CEC TL0 CD transport, which when connected to the M-Scaler works just fine with no crazy digital noise. Of course, the power cycle problem occurs regardless whether I’m streaming or playing CDs. I’ve learned through experience never to play the Dave through my speakers until I run it through a couple of sample tracks and that seems to reset the DSP so the Dave is not audibly distorting. When the two work properly, they do sound fine, but in terms of reliability, it’s certainly the worst digital high end product I’ve owned, and I’ve owned a lot in the past 25 years. My experience is not unique. My dealer confirmed others have had the same issue, which is why the Blu2 has been discontinued.


----------



## iDesign

Have you considered selling your Chord products and moving to a different thread?


----------



## jlbrach

yes, it sure seems like this fellow would be better off owning another brand


----------



## Torq

Zero issues with my Blu Mk2/DAVE combination in the last 2 years (which is when I added the Blu Mk2).  No drop outs, no distortion, no power on/off issues.  Not that this means the same is necessarily true for anyone else.  But if it was a systemic issue, rather than a unit-specific one, I'd expect to have encountered such a problem at least ONCE in that time.

If I _was_ having such issues, each unit would have gotten one service visit each to get it sorted, and if that didn't resolve it I'd either be going after the dealer and/or the manufacturer for replacements or refunds.  If not resolved at that point, I'd have gotten rid of them and replaced them with something different.

I was told the Blu Mk2 was discontinued because the drive mechanisms were no longer available, and no suitable replacement was available.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...yes, but then you wouldn't be able to crab about it and post how bad it is. You'd have to just move on with things and enjoy your alternative selection.


----------



## sm60

iDesign said:


> Have you considered selling your Chord products and moving to a different thread?


Yes, I have considered selling my Chord products, and I'm sure eventually I will do that. I realize my ranting on this newsgroup is not something everyone wants to hear, but it's fair to say that as a consumer of these really high priced products, I should be allowed to relate my actual experiences of owning them. I own a high-priced Tesla, which has so far (touch wood!) worked absolutely reliably, even given the weekly software updates. If my Tesla gave me the kind of problems the Dave/Blu2 do, I would obviously rant on the Tesla newsgroups! I have no axe to grind against Chord. I like many things about their design, for one their size (easy to hold with one hand, not something you can say about other DAC's!), and generally when they work, they sound fine.. Unfortunately, perhaps I ended up with a lemon, although from the comments others have made on this newsgroup, I don't think I am alone in my experience. Chord needs to hear this feedback. About the Blu2, I am relaying only what my dealer told me: the Blu 2 was discontinued because of increasing reliability problems. He in fact strongly suggested that I should not get the Blu2, but get the M-scaler instead. I decided otherwise, for purely cosmetic reasons (I can't stomach the tinsel colored plastic beads on the M-scaler, which are on many of Chord's portable products as well -- they seem very tacky, but that's my personal view of course!). 

Regarding getting the products serviced, it's no easy matter if you live in the US. I have had experience in this matter, as I have owned many high end digital audio products. For example, I owned a dCS Verdi SACD transport, which always kept failing to read SACDs properly. Sony made the transport, and dCS required me to ship the Verdi back to the UK at my expense. It took several months, and when I got it back, it worked for a few months, and then promptly exhibited the same problems again. 

So far, my annoyance at the Chord units has not arisen to the level of wanting to get rid of them, except for occasionally ranting on this newsgroup! When the Dave distorts, or the Blu 2 transport chokes on a disc, I curse, and then adopt some workaround. So far, they continue to work for the most part, with periodic power cycling, and then making sure the DSP in the Dave gets reset by running through a couple of sample tracks at different resolutions (by the way, this trick I learned on this newsgroup, proof that others have had exactly the same problem, and figured out workarounds). A well designed product should be software upgradeable. It's crazy to think that in 2021, a company like Chord puts out a digital product that cannot be updated remotely. They seem 20 years behind the times here.


----------



## griff500

It must be at least twenty years since I've seen anyone use the word 'newsgroup'.


----------



## sm60

MarkusBarkus said:


> ...yes, but then you wouldn't be able to crab about it and post how bad it is. You'd have to just move on with things and enjoy your alternative selection.


Very true! Wise words indeed. But, if you search this very long thread, you will find each and every problem I have reported, others have too. I am not unique in my experience. The Blu2 thread also has people complaining about the transport. If you have a perfectly working Dave/Blu2, consider yourself blessed! I wish I was in such exalted company!


----------



## MarkusBarkus

sm60 said:


> It's crazy to think that in 2021, a company like Chord puts out a digital product that cannot be updated remotely.


...now that I agree with. A digital/software dead-end should be a thing of the past.


----------



## sm60

griff500 said:


> It must be at least twenty years since I've seen anyone use the word 'newsgroup'.


Ah, I'm dating myself, clearly. Just to be absolutely transparent, my first computer program was on a set of punched cards, written in Fortran, on a mainframe Digital Equipment Corporation DEC-10 computer. Yes, back in the days when assembling a playlist meant going down to a record store, and buying a vinyl disc or a cassette tape! Life was simpler then...


----------



## griff500

MarkusBarkus said:


> ...now that I agree with. A digital/software dead-end should be a thing of the past.


It's not a product that has just been brought out though and I'm not sure what updates it needs? I'm perfectly happy with mine.


----------



## griff500

sm60 said:


> Ah, I'm dating myself, clearly. Just to be absolutely transparent, my first computer program was on a set of punched cards, written in Fortran, on a mainframe Digital Equipment Corporation DEC-10 computer. Yes, back in the days when assembling a playlist meant going down to a record store, and buying a vinyl disc or a cassette tape! Life was simpler then...


I can't claim to have done that, but I do remember newsgroups.


----------



## Torq

sm60 said:


> Regarding getting the products serviced, it's no easy matter if you live in the US.



Wasn't any big deal for me.  

I had the USB port fail on my DAVE a few years ago (when I lived in Seattle).  I took it back to the dealer, who sent it to George Meyer AV in LA.  Start to finish I think it took a week to get it resolved.


----------



## sm60

Torq said:


> Wasn't any big deal for me.
> 
> I had the USB port fail on my DAVE a few years ago (when I lived in Seattle).  I took it back to the dealer, who sent it to George Meyer AV in LA.  Start to finish I think it took a week to get it resolved.


That’s great to hear. Do you know if that’s the Chord authorized service center on the west coast? I’m happy to send them my two units. Even if I decided later to sell my pair, I’d like the units to be serviced so the next owner doesn’t have to go through the same issues.

One of the greatest advances in high end audio has been the availability of high bit rate streaming services, like Qobuz, and playlist managers like Roon. It seems like magic to me that each evening I can select from thousands of recently recorded classical releases, most in 24-bit 96khz or 192khz, and play them back so easily. If you, however, go to the Roon newsgroup, you find plenty of people ranting about terrible Roon is, or how the latest 1.8 release has crashed their working system. I certainly went through my share of Roon woes, but after setting up a dedicated Roon server using an Intel NUC box, it has worked flawlessly. I even installed the fanless enclosure that you can get for the NUC on Amazon, which makes my Roon server noiseless.

Software driven products are notoriously unreliable initially and eventually through user feedback become much better. Tesla listens to all the gripes about their self-driving software and keeps improving it. The initial web browsers were simply awful and kept crashing. Playing video over the web in the early days was a nightmare. One of my academic colleagues revolutionized content distribution on the internet  with his PhD thesis at Princeton on overlay networks. He went on to co-found Akamai, which today essentially runs a large part of the web.

Software designed products must be remotely upgradable. Would you buy a phone that could not be updated remotely? Hint: in the early days of phone service, that’s all we had. Rotary phones where you rotate the dial each time to input a number. Anyone seen one of these recently?


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...using Veronica to Telnet into use-groups on an Amiga via 96 baud modem. I really should use that ahk-uhh connection sound for a ring tone.

Back OT: I am on the record as saying I *really* like the Dave dac and the MScaler. But I do *not* think they are flawless. I have mine on DC4 ps and sending signal via USB into a Denefrips Gaia, then single SPDIF into Dave. I have to test adding HMS workflow this week. I have used the PGGB files via dual input too, but I'm doing this for now. I don't like fussing with batteries, or I'd be on those too.

Stock Dave is excellent. HAL9000 Dave is outta sight...IMO. IMO.


----------



## Torq

sm60 said:


> Do you know if that’s the Chord authorized service center on the west coast?



It was at the time.

I imagine it still is, unless something changed with regards to service when Chord changed from using Blue Bird as their Chord distributor.


----------



## jlbrach

Torq said:


> Zero issues with my Blu Mk2/DAVE combination in the last 2 years (which is when I added the Blu Mk2).  No drop outs, no distortion, no power on/off issues.  Not that this means the same is necessarily true for anyone else.  But if it was a systemic issue, rather than a unit-specific one, I'd expect to have encountered such a problem at least ONCE in that time.
> 
> If I _was_ having such issues, each unit would have gotten one service visit each to get it sorted, and if that didn't resolve it I'd either be going after the dealer and/or the manufacturer for replacements or refunds.  If not resolved at that point, I'd have gotten rid of them and replaced them with something different.
> 
> I was told the Blu Mk2 was discontinued because the drive mechanisms were no longer available, and no suitable replacement was available.


no problems for me,none knock on wood


----------



## The Jester (Jul 25, 2021)

Depends on the design and implementation, I remember years ago reading about a major office update, new terminals, servers, cabling the lot,
One little Unix server was working fine but on following the cables it had inadvertently been bricked in during building renovations, it was quite happy purring away doing what it was designed for … how long would a modern unit with a constant stream of software updates fare in the same situation ?


----------



## edwardsean

MarkusBarkus said:


> ...using Veronica to Telnet into use-groups on an Amiga via 96 baud modem. I really should use that ahk-uhh connection sound for a ring tone.
> 
> Back OT: I am on the record as saying I *really* like the Dave dac and the MScaler. But I do *not* think they are flawless. I have mine on DC4 ps and sending signal via USB into a Denefrips Gaia, then single SPDIF into Dave. I have to test adding HMS workflow this week. I have used the PGGB files via dual input too, but I'm doing this for now. I don't like fussing with batteries, or I'd be on those too.
> 
> Stock Dave is excellent. HAL9000 Dave is outta sight...IMO. IMO.


What are you using for the dual input for PGGB files?


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...I was testing the AudioWise box. There are a few good converter options for single-flow, but not for dual. It's against the grain, but I prefer single workflow to that box. I am waiting for a better dual-BNC converter to emerge.

I will test the HMS workflow with the Gaia this week, which would still allow by-passing the Amanero USB (in HMS), but add back some upscaling, with dual BNC from HMS to Dave.


----------



## griff500

sm60 said:


> Software designed products must be remotely upgradable.


I understand where you are coming from in principle but, in reality, what exactly would you want to be updated in the DAVE? 

It's also a commercial consideration - it's a significant undertaking to create and roll out updates and, again, I really can't imagine what needs to be improved with the DAVE and I cannot see what software features need to be added. It seems perfectly fine to me.


----------



## edwardsean (Jul 25, 2021)

MarkusBarkus said:


> ...I was testing the AudioWise box. There are a few good converter options for single-flow, but not for dual. It's against the grain, but I prefer single workflow to that box. I am waiting for a better dual-BNC converter to emerge.


It's such a specific application. I'm not sure another dual-BNC converter will emerge.

Can I clarify, are you are saying that PGGB upscaled to 384KHz into a single BNC via Gaia is superior, to your ears, than PGGB upscaled to 768KHz into dual BNC via SRC-DX?



griff500 said:


> I understand where you are coming from in principle but, in reality, what exactly would you want to be updated in the DAVE?
> 
> It's also a commercial consideration - it's a significant undertaking to create and roll out updates and, again, I really can't imagine what needs to be improved with the DAVE and I cannot see what software features need to be added. It seems perfectly fine to me.


It is "perfectly fine" of course, but I'm sure you are quite familiar with how this all goes. At a certain point, it's always perfectly fine... until you hear the thing that makes you feel like it's not perfectly fine, not fine at all, nothing is fine, nothing in the whole wide world is fine until you obtain that thing.

I'm sorry... maybe that's just me. Also, you were probably speaking more specifically to Dave being fine as it is.

It's just that, at some point, Rob Watt's will release his next creation. And, all of us who love Dave will be tossed into that bracing whirlwind of excitement and turmoil as our entire systems are sucked up and upended.

[edit: To start, I would like I2S and 32fs 1536 in a future product]


----------



## Glossator

sm60 said:


> That’s great to hear. Do you know if that’s the Chord authorized service center on the west coast? I’m happy to send them my two units. Even if I decided later to sell my pair, I’d like the units to be serviced so the next owner doesn’t have to go through the same issues.
> 
> One of the greatest advances in high end audio has been the availability of high bit rate streaming services, like Qobuz, and playlist managers like Roon. It seems like magic to me that each evening I can select from thousands of recently recorded classical releases, most in 24-bit 96khz or 192khz, and play them back so easily. If you, however, go to the Roon newsgroup, you find plenty of people ranting about terrible Roon is, or how the latest 1.8 release has crashed their working system. I certainly went through my share of Roon woes, but after setting up a dedicated Roon server using an Intel NUC box, it has worked flawlessly. I even installed the fanless enclosure that you can get for the NUC on Amazon, which makes my Roon server noiseless.
> 
> ...


The software model, where as you say things do not work initially, is truly best avoided where possible (granted, in some situations it cannot be).    

Heaven forfend that Chord would go that route!    

A product (at least a product with a particular close-ended purpose - e.g. a washing machine or a DAC) should work - period (thankfully my Chord products do, flawlessly).  An iPhone, by contrast, is not 'closed ended' (even within the confines of Apple's walled garden).     

The impression I get is that RW's DACs are intended on release to do what he designs them to do, which given the state of available hardware and his own knowledge at the time, is as good as he feels is feasible within the constraints of what is practicable technically and commercially.

There is a straight dealing about that which I much prefer to approaching a hardware product on the basis that it is, in a sense, not entirely finished on release (as is the case with a software model).

Where my argument breaks down, I appreciate, is where the software is key and that that software can be improved (as, I get the impression, the likes of Taiko and Innuos are showing with respectively TAS and Innuos 2.0).   But the question that leads to whether there is any element of a DAVE's FGPA that could be helpfully optimised by firmware tinkering - the simple fact that Chord has not released a successor to DAVE suggests that RW feels that the answer to that is 'no' (or, pending DAVINA related research, not yet).    

Also, although sometimes software solutions offer upgradability, the often future proofing tends to be illusory.   Take, for example, people's gripes about the Amarero chipset - surely that would not be fixable by means of software .... ?    The incompability of Windows 11 with older Intel chips feels like a case in point ...


----------



## Glossator

jlbrach said:


> no problems for me,none knock on wood


I had a Blu Mk1 for about 14 years.  After about 12 years the little plastic puck fractured.    I gather this is not unusual - the plastic breaks down over time.   Chord sent me a replacement, free, by return.   Way out of guarantee.   Couldn't really ask for more than that.


----------



## Currawong

The Jester said:


> @rob,
> With ever increasing small signal accuracy giving better depth perception and our own ability to perceive relative distances in sound, similar to the way we perceive direction from minor timing differences from ear to ear ?
> Is it possible that this is caused by more and more reflected vs direct sound reaching our ears at minute differences in level and timing as the distance increases, and the more accurate those signals are replayed the better we hear depth in recordings ?



My subjective impression of using the MScaler vs. not with the DAVE seems to align with this. My impression is that the sound _between_ instruments increased, and I was hearing more reflected sounds.



sm60 said:


> If you, however, go to the Roon newsgroup, you find plenty of people ranting about terrible Roon is, or how the latest 1.8 release has crashed their working system.



Statistically (and this pre-dates the internet) people are at least twice as likely to complain about bad service or a bad product as they are a good one. I think this is because if something is working, we don't tend to think about it, whereas if it isn't, we tend to get emotional. Thus, forums tend to have more people complaining about a product than praising it, though there are plenty of people who want to share their positive experiences as well.


----------



## ecwl

sm60 said:


> That’s great to hear. Do you know if that’s the Chord authorized service center on the west coast? I’m happy to send them my two units. Even if I decided later to sell my pair, I’d like the units to be serviced so the next owner doesn’t have to go through the same issues.


At some level, I understand your struggles. When I first got my Blu2 in 2017, my dealer and I struggled to get a good working unit for a few months and had to send the units back to Chord until one works perfectly. And it’s been working perfectly fine since then. But that was from their initial production run and we suspect the shipping from UK to Canada was sometimes rough but we weren’t sure. I never publicly posted this because I really haven’t seen a lot of people complain about this problem on the forums here. Possibly one person per year max, probably less. I have personally contacted them via PM’s and eventually their problems got resolved. So I don’t think there is a massive failure rate for Blu2.

And Blu2 is definitely a little more sensitive to RF noise so I have found it can be finicky if you’re using the S/PDIF or USB inputs of Blu2 depending on your USB or S/PDIF source.

And I have to admit, because even with multiple USB source upgrades, I can’t completely get rid of the RF source noise (unless I run the system off my iPad which I didn’t want to), I ended up switching to an M-Scaler and eventually to feeding the M-Scaler Toslink.

Unfortunately, this is where my sympathy ends. You’ve said in your previous posts, you bought the Blu2 used, instead of M-Scaler as recommended by your dealer. Mostly you did it for aesthetic reasons (Iike I did as I kept my Blu2 till 2020 for the same reasons when I finally decided to switch to M-Scaler even though I never use the CD transport).

To me, it’s not even clear that Blu2 or DAVE is not working properly. It sounds like you’ve said if you use your sources directly with DAVE or if you feed a non-USB source to Blu2 via S/PDIF and play through DAVE, it works fine. I can’t figure out from your posts how the CD transport is broken. Usually BNC1/2 or BNC3/4 would work consistently, you just need to find which one and use that (I use my BNC3/4 because BNC1/2 is not as reliable). I guess you can call it a “defective” product. But if it runs 100% of the time BNC3/4, I’m fine with it.

To me, if you have nothing plugged into Blu2 and you just use the Blu2 as a CD transport into DAVE with a functioning BNC1/2 or BNC3/4 using the stock BNC cables and if it consistently runs normally, your Blu2 is not broken. Maybe there is something wrong with your USB source. It’s not a software issue. It’s your USB source RF noise issue. 

On the other hand, if you plug your battery-powered iPad into the USB source and once in a while, there is distortion to the audio, or if you play CDs and once in a while, the CD skips because of the transport or the CD seems to play fine but the DAVE has audio distortions, then yes, your Blu2 is 100% broken. But Chord has 5-year warranty that’s transferable from original owner to new owner as long as you have the original owner’s receipt. So to me, you can just get the warranty. Unless you didn’t ask the original owner to provide you with his original receipt. But that’s not really a Chord problem. That’s a “I bought a used product” problem. Heck, maybe the person who sold you the Blu2 knew it was broken. Maybe the person who sold you the Blu2 broke the Blu2. You seem pretty confident it’s Chord and its “software” problem. 

I totally understand that your bad experience has soured you on Chord products. I was equally frustrated the first few months in 2017 with the Blu2. But eventually Chord sorted the product out. So far, I have never heard you say what happened when you actually try to get the Blu2 into warranty repair in the UK. I’m just hearing that you want Chord to open a West Coast repair shop which we all know is not going to happen. I’m sorry that you have a bad experience with a used product. I think it’s reasonable to vent and see if somebody in this forum can help you out. But taking out all your frustrations in this thread with repeated posts doesn’t actually fix your product problems.

Anyway, best wishes with the warranty repair.


----------



## jlbrach

I hope I dont jinx myself but my blu2 has been flawless but I dont use it for playing cd's FWIIW


----------



## sm60

ecwl said:


> At some level, I understand your struggles. When I first got my Blu2 in 2017, my dealer and I struggled to get a good working unit for a few months and had to send the units back to Chord until one works perfectly. And it’s been working perfectly fine since then. But that was from their initial production run and we suspect the shipping from UK to Canada was sometimes rough but we weren’t sure. I never publicly posted this because I really haven’t seen a lot of people complain about this problem on the forums here. Possibly one person per year max, probably less. I have personally contacted them via PM’s and eventually their problems got resolved. So I don’t think there is a massive failure rate for Blu2.
> 
> And Blu2 is definitely a little more sensitive to RF noise so I have found it can be finicky if you’re using the S/PDIF or USB inputs of Blu2 depending on your USB or S/PDIF source.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you’ve had a similar experience to mine with the Blu2 and Dave, and with the flaky BNC interface. I’m not surprised. When a product has some intrinsic design flaws, it generally shows up in a lot of cases. You’ve just had a lot more patience than I do in sorting these out. Perhaps it’s because I’m a grizzled old veteran in high end audio, but buying overpriced digital audio that exhibits obvious design defects is not a pleasant experience.

In any case, boutique companies like Chord have limited lifetimes. If you look at how much money Apple makes from just selling their in ear headphones, you see high end boutique audio is not a profitable business. Apple probably makes more money in a day selling their headphones than Chord makes in a year. Apple’s headphone business is valued in the multiple tens of billions of dollars, more I suspect than the entire high end audio industry. High end audio boutique designers are always in it as a labor of love and passion, and in the end, it’s hard to expect the same level of reliability from a small firm with limited resources, especially if they are going with some unconventional designs.


----------



## griff500

sm60 said:


> If you look at how much money Apple makes from just selling their in ear headphones, you see high end boutique audio is not a profitable business.


I don't see the logic - one sells at high volume and the other sells at lower volume with a far higher price. I'm sure Chord make a profit...


----------



## mammal

griff500 said:


> I don't see the logic - one sells at high volume and the other sells at lower volume with a far higher price. I'm sure Chord make a profit...


Yeah, if they were not profitable, I don't think they would be around for more than 2 years or so. I don't think high end manufacturers are funded by VCs indefinitely. Usually, high volume has low margins, and vice versa.


----------



## audio_1 (Jul 26, 2021)

sm60 said:


> It sounds like you’ve had a similar experience to mine with the Blu2 and Dave, and with the flaky BNC interface. I’m not surprised. When a product has some intrinsic design flaws, it generally shows up in a lot of cases. You’ve just had a lot more patience than I do in sorting these out. Perhaps it’s because I’m a grizzled old veteran in high end audio, but buying overpriced digital audio that exhibits obvious design defects is not a pleasant experience.
> 
> In any case, boutique companies like Chord have limited lifetimes. If you look at how much money Apple makes from just selling their in ear headphones, you see high end boutique audio is not a profitable business. Apple probably makes more money in a day selling their headphones than Chord makes in a year. Apple’s headphone business is valued in the multiple tens of billions of dollars, more I suspect than the entire high end audio industry. High end audio boutique designers are always in it as a labor of love and passion, and in the end, it’s hard to expect the same level of reliability from a small firm with limited resources, especially if they are going with some unconventional designs.


Dual BNC drop out problems are generally due to poor quality BNC cables. What make of BNC cables are you using? I would take up the issue of distortion with Chord directly. As the units are second hand, unfortunately there is no way of knowing how the units were treaty by the previous owner. There is no point airing your grievances in public as it only devalues the resale value of what is unquestionably the best DAC (with mScaler) available. My Dave and Blu2 work flawlessly and have no intrinsic design flaws. I never experience drop outs. The sample rate change "glitch" noise you experience can easily be eliminated by;
1. Stopping playback, before playing a track with a different sample rate.
2. Roon. In the device setup for the Blu2. Set the Resync delay to 2000 ms
3. Switch off Dave, before switching off the Blu2.


----------



## Sampajanna

Much rather support small boutique companies any day of the week!


----------



## Articnoise

@romaz 
"If you own a DAVE with it's stock PSU, it's hard to accurately convey just how big a step change the ARC6 brings. It really is transformational and all credit goes to @Nenon and Sean Jacobs. At the very least, imo, you owe it to yourself to get a DC3 because swapping out DAVE's PSU is among the highest value things you can do to your DAVE and it's easy to do. I'm sure when Paul Hynes' SR7 for DAVE finally comes out, it will transform your DAVE if you are in line for one. But with regards to the ARC6, coming from a baseline of a DC3 and then DC4, which are both excellent in their own rights, it's amazing how the ARC6 is just ridiculously better."

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...eaming/page/720/?tab=comments#comment-1149407


----------



## tunes

See below/

Anyone selling their beloved DAVE with Mscaler to get Holo May??

Resolution was a close call at this point, and it was a bit tough to judge given how much more "convincing" the may sounded, leading me to lean towards picking it, but it really is close in raw resolution, and the differences in presentation elsewhere are going to be a much more important factor.

With the mscaler on both at 192khz though....it really wasn't all that much of a competition anymore.

Both of these are absolutely world-class dacs, there is no doubt about that, and either of them are going to be able to do a true summit-fi system absolute justice. But the may really is something quite incredible. And given as it costs half of what the DAVE does, its hard to find a reason not to go for it instead other than space (May is THICC)


----------



## Ragnar-BY

Articnoise said:


> I'm sure when Paul Hynes' SR7 for DAVE finally comes out, it will transform your DAVE


Last time I’ve checked his website Paul Hynes Design Ltd. was closed and "An Insolvency Practitioner has been appointed to realise the company assets for creditor distribution." I guess there will be no PSUs from Paul anymore.


----------



## Ragnar-BY (Jul 26, 2021)

tunes said:


> Anyone selling their beloved DAVE with Mscaler to get Holo May??


It is not the first time in this thread that some new better DAC is discussed. A year later another new DAC appears, but DAVE is still the benchmark for comparison. I’ll wait for DAVE 2 😇


----------



## Triode User (Jul 26, 2021)

Articnoise said:


> @romaz
> "If you own a DAVE with it's stock PSU, it's hard to accurately convey just how big a step change the ARC6 brings. It really is transformational and all credit goes to @Nenon and Sean Jacobs. At the very least, imo, you owe it to yourself to get a DC3 because swapping out DAVE's PSU is among the highest value things you can do to your DAVE and it's easy to do. I'm sure when Paul Hynes' SR7 for DAVE finally comes out, it will transform your DAVE if you are in line for one. But with regards to the ARC6, coming from a baseline of a DC3 and then DC4, which are both excellent in their own rights, it's amazing how the ARC6 is just ridiculously better."
> 
> https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...eaming/page/720/?tab=comments#comment-1149407


I am very lucky to have been asked by Sean Jacobs to listen to a prototype of the new ARC6 version of the DC4. It is a very compelling upgrade above the original DC4 which in itself was (and still is) a class act. Hide your wallets before it is too late to save them!


----------



## Articnoise

Ragnar-BY said:


> Last time I’ve checked his website Paul Hynes Design Ltd. was closed and "An Insolvency Practitioner has been appointed to realise the company assets for creditor distribution." I guess there will be no PSUs from Paul anymore.



Yes this is probably and unfortunately the truth for all/most of those that have paid a lot to get Paul Hynes most legendary PSUs. Good thing that we have other splendid PSU manufacturers.


----------



## DJJEZ

tunes said:


> See below/
> 
> Anyone selling their beloved DAVE with Mscaler to get Holo May??
> 
> ...


I'm getting a may KTE soon to compare against my dave/mscaler 🙋‍♂️🙋‍♂️🙋‍♂️


----------



## tunes

Please send us your impressions after you compare them.  What HP will you be using for the evaluations?


----------



## DJJEZ

tunes said:


> Please send us your impressions after you compare them.  What HP will you be using for the evaluations?


1266TC


----------



## Triode User (Jul 27, 2021)

DJJEZ said:


> I'm getting a may KTE soon to compare against my dave/mscaler 🙋‍♂️🙋‍♂️🙋‍♂️



I bought a May L2 a couple of weeks ago and have just sold it. It is not in the same league as a Dave / Mscaler but at the discounted price I paid (less than the cost of the Mscaler alone) it is good value.


----------



## tunes

Triode User said:


> I bought a May L2 a couple of weeks ago and have just sold it. It is not in the same league as a Dave / Mscaler but at the discounted price I paid (less than the cost of the Mscaler alone) it is good value.


Isn’t the KTE the one to compare to DAVE/Mscaler???


----------



## atya35mm

Triode User said:


> I bought a May L2 a couple of weeks ago and have just sold it. It is not in the same league as a Dave / Mscaler but at the discounted price I paid (less than the cost of the Mscaler alone) it is good value.


Good to know. Thought that would be the case, thanks for confirming. 

Also, I know posts like this might not be the most helpful, but being new to the hobby I'm not very well equipped with all the audiophile terms except to say I just got delivered the Wave Storm cables, and with just a short amount of listening, it's clear that it's a must have accessory if you have an m-scaler with the Dave.


----------



## atya35mm

tunes said:


> Isn’t the KTE the one to compare to DAVE/Mscaler???


From Golden Ear(or sound?) reviews on youtube, L2 and KTE are quite close so they should still be comparable.


----------



## Triode User

tunes said:


> Isn’t the KTE the one to compare to DAVE/Mscaler???


There isn’t that much between the L2 and KTE that would change my conclusions.


----------



## alxw0w

Triode User said:


> I bought a May L2 a couple of weeks ago and have just sold it. It is not in the same league as a Dave / Mscaler but at the discounted price I paid (less than the cost of the Mscaler alone) it is good value.


Could you elaborate more on this ?


----------



## Articnoise

Triode User said:


> There isn’t that much between the L2 and KTE that would change my conclusions.



Did you use the L2 together with a good DDC and I2S?


----------



## Bling23

Triode User said:


> Yes, I and a friend both have antipodes K50 streamers and we think that the bnc output from the K50 beats usb into the MScaler. We have been using Squeeze on the K50.


I find the opposite that USB out of K50 into Weiss DAC sound best, more holographic deeper bass. Im not sure if that's K50 or DAC or combo of both. I was thinking of getting the Mutec USB reclocker to see if I can get more 😁, im using Squeeze/Roon
Thanks
Sean


----------



## Triode User

Bling23 said:


> I find the opposite that USB out of K50 into Weiss DAC sound best, more holographic deeper bass. Im not sure if that's K50 or DAC or combo of both. I was thinking of getting the Mutec USB reclocker to see if I can get more 😁, im using Squeeze/Roon
> Thanks
> Sean


 Ah, Sean, I have just been replying to you on the Antipodes thread. Now I see what DAC you have. I personally am waiting for the any day now release of 3.1 software for the K50 so that we can use the latest version of Squeezelite etc and I expect that to help things. One thing I would say is that ditching Roon will bring you a decent upgrade in sound quality even if you are using Squeeze with it. Also, a friend loaned his Mutec to me and I tried it with the K50 but it was not to my liking.


----------



## Bling23

Triode User said:


> Ah, Sean, I have just been replying to you on the Antipodes thread. Now I see what DAC you have. I personally am waiting for the any day now release of 3.1 software for the K50 so that we can use the latest version of Squeezelite etc and I expect that to help things. One thing I would say is that ditching Roon will bring you a decent upgrade in sound quality even if you are using Squeeze with it. Also, a friend loaned his Mutec to me and I tried it with the K50 but it was not to my liking.


Hi Triode user,
That is very interesting I have heard ditching Roon bring sonic improvements I would be very interested to try. I have a really annoying issue with the way the K50 is interacting with my cellular network it on shows streamer or server and its not stable. I am afraid to change anything as I might loose the K50 altogether. I live in a remote location and cellular network is all I can get for the moment. Maybe you could post up your findings that would be great.  How would you describe the Mutec? I was hoping it would improve things and then with the reclocked USB signal go AES in to the Weiss DAC. Thanks Sean


----------



## Triode User

Bling23 said:


> I live in a remote location and cellular network is all I can get for the moment.


Just on this, frustratingly I live 1/2 mile too far away from our rural village fibre broadband and so I also have a cellular connection to broadband (EE G4 with an external aerial). This works very well and I connect the EE router to my home ethernet with a Cisco switch which also works well. As far as having the K50 accessible and connected it is no different to any other home network.


----------



## Bling23

Triode User said:


> Just on this, frustratingly I live 1/2 mile too far away from our rural village fibre broadband and so I also have a cellular connection to broadband (EE G4 with an external aerial). This works very well and I connect the EE router to my home ethernet with a Cisco switch which also works well. As far as having the K50 accessible and connected it is no different to any other home network.


Its a very weird one I'm on Vodaphone and for whatever reason the K50 is not stable either shows streamer only or server only or neither. I still plays music but not as still very frustrating. I am afraid to do tweets or changes incase I loose it all-together. I think it's to do with the single IP address for two devices streamer/server.


----------



## Triode User

Bling23 said:


> Its a very weird one I'm on Vodaphone and for whatever reason the K50 is not stable either shows streamer only or server only or neither. I still plays music but not as still very frustrating. I am afraid to do tweets or changes incase I loose it all-together. I think it's to do with the single IP address for two devices streamer/server.



Happy to discuss the cellular network thing by messaging or we can continue the K50 discussion in the Antipodes thread but the Dave boys might get a bit bored with this discussion here . . . I’ll continue it on the Antipodes thread.


----------



## Bling23

Triode User said:


> Happy to discuss the cellular network thing by messaging or we can continue the K50 discussion in the Antipodes thread but the Dave boys might get a bit bored with this discussion here . . . I’ll continue it on the Antipodes thread.


That would be great thanks hanks 😁, apologies to the Dave crew 
Thanks Sean


----------



## EuropeanEar

EndGameSearch said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> Have you recently changed any of the components within the Daves you are currently shipping?  Perhaps Chord changed to a different type of BNC input connectors?
> 
> ...



I'm experiencing the same exact problems with my M Scaler / Dave combo using the stock BNC cables.

BNC input 1 and 2 are basically useless on the Dave.  Frequent pops, clicks, and even dropouts.

BNC input 3 and 4 are way better.  No dropouts but annoying little clicks only in the right channel.  These clicks sound like electrostatic charge being released.  They are more frequent if the source is my computer through USB connection and less if it is my Aurender N10 via optical.  Yes, the problem only arises when in dual BNC mode.


----------



## Ciggavelli

EuropeanEar said:


> I'm experiencing the same exact problems with my M Scaler / Dave combo using the stock BNC cables.
> 
> BNC input 1 and 2 are basically useless on the Dave.  Frequent pops, clicks, and even dropouts.
> 
> BNC input 3 and 4 are way better.  No dropouts but annoying little clicks only in the right channel.  These clicks sound like electrostatic charge being released.  They are more frequent if the source is my computer through USB connection and less if it is my Aurender N10 via optical.  Yes, the problem only arises when in dual BNC mode.


Your DAVE could be faulty. When I got my DAVE the first time, I experienced those pops and crackles when adding the m-scaler. I told my dealer and he said some DAVEs have this problem and their “firmware” needs to be updated (whatever that means). I had to ship my DAVE back to get repaired, and when it finally got shipped back to me, I no longer heard any of those pops and crackles with any of the bnc connections.

I read at the time that all of those issues were somewhat common with specific DAVEs. So, I’d suggest talking to your dealer. The DAVE and m-scaler combo should not have that static and electrical discharge sounds at all on any bnc input


----------



## EuropeanEar

Ciggavelli said:


> Your DAVE could be faulty. When I got my DAVE the first time, I experienced those pops and crackles when adding the m-scaler. I told my dealer and he said some DAVEs have this problem and their “firmware” needs to be updated (whatever that means). I had to ship my DAVE back to get repaired, and when it finally got shipped back to me, I no longer heard any of those pops and crackles with any of the bnc connections.
> 
> I read at the time that all of those issues were somewhat common with specific DAVEs. So, I’d suggest talking to your dealer. The DAVE and m-scaler combo should not have that static and electrical discharge sounds at all on any bnc input


The weird thing is that the little crackles are present in the right channel even if no music is played. It’s random but I’d say 1 click per minute.

How long did the repair take for your unit?


----------



## Ciggavelli

EuropeanEar said:


> The weird thing is that the little crackles are present in the right channel even if no music is played. It’s random but I’d say 1 click per minute.
> 
> How long did the repair take for your unit?


Like a month. I’m in the US though. Perhaps it is faster in the EU. My dealer provided me with a loaner during that time, so I wouldn’t be out of action for too long.  Maybe your dealer might do the same. I do have a pretty good relationship with him though, so YMMV


----------



## EuropeanEar

Ciggavelli said:


> Like a month. I’m in the US though. Perhaps it is faster in the EU. My dealer provided me with a loaner during that time, so I wouldn’t be out of action for too long.  Maybe your dealer might do the same. I do have a pretty good relationship with him though, so YMMV


I’m in California. My Dave was brand new but not bought from a dealer.


----------



## Jawed

miketlse said:


> Buried in some of Robs historical posts, is the comment that doubling the number of taps, increases the accuracy by 1 bit.
> So a doubling the taps via a 2MScaler would enable 17.7 bit accuracy.
> A further doubling via a 4MScaler would enable 18.7 bit accuracy.
> And so on, until a 256MScaler would enable 24.7 bit accuracy.


Always worth remembering that changing WTA1 from 8FS to 16FS was a massive upgrade (Hugo to DAVE).

For example, 1M taps for WTA1 at 256FS may well sound better than 100 million taps at 16FS.


----------



## burbster

Triode User said:


> I am very lucky to have been asked by Sean Jacobs to listen to a prototype of the new ARC6 version of the DC4. It is a very compelling upgrade above the original DC4 which in itself was (and still is) a class act. Hide your wallets before it is too late to save them!





Triode User said:


> I am very lucky to have been asked by Sean Jacobs to listen to a prototype of the new ARC6 version of the DC4. It is a very compelling upgrade above the original DC4 which in itself was (and still is) a class act. Hide your wallets before it is too late to save them!


Hi does anyone know if an original DC4 be upgraded to an ARC6? Or will you need to buy a new unit? I don’t own a DC4 but only asking in the hope that some used DC4s may come on the market. Someone might even want to swap one for an Antipodes EX and CX I’m selling!   I am intrigued to hear one In my system, I have already put a lot of effort into my mains setup so curious to hear how much better it can get.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...it's an upgrade. Not considered a DIY activity.


----------



## Triode User (Aug 4, 2021)

burbster said:


> Hi does anyone know if an original DC4 be upgraded to an ARC6?


I understand that Sean will offer an ARC6 upgrade to owners of the existing DC4. ie return to Sean, he does the upgrade and ships it back. I think it is intended that certainly initially this upgrade will cost the price difference between the price of DC4 and the price of an ARC6 but one is best to contact Sean direct about such things and I am sure he will be happy to confirm. It is certainly not a DIY conversion.



burbster said:


> I am intrigued to hear one In my system, I have already put a lot of effort into my mains setup so curious to hear how much better it can get.


I have put out a general offer for any in the UK to come and hear the ARC6 at my house. Bring your own Dave and then you will be able to directly compare. I enjoy discussing hifi and having a bit of banter over a cup or three of coffee so to you or others please do invite yourself. I am near Melton Mowbray with easy access to the A1 and M1. Indeed the first person to invite himself is coming to play some tunes on this coming Monday.

It should be clarified that I have no commercial relationship to Sean and I am merely a happy customer who bought the first DC4 and now have been lending my ears to Sean to give him feedback on his ARC6 version.

PS, Sean has associates in USA and Europe who will be offering the upgrade locally.


----------



## sm60

Triode User said:


> I understand that Sean will offer an ARC6 upgrade to owners of the existing DC4. ie return to Sean, he does the upgrade and ships it back. I think it is intended that certainly initially this upgrade will cost the price difference between the price of DC4 and the price of an ARC6 but one is best to contact Sean direct about such things and I am sure he will be happy to confirm. It is certainly not a DIY conversion.
> 
> 
> I have put out a general offer for any in the UK to come and hear the ARC6 at my house. Bring your own Dave and then you will be able to directly compare. I enjoy discussing hifi and having a bit of banter over a cup or three of coffee so to you or others please do invite yourself. I am near Melton Mowbray with easy access to the A1 and M1. Indeed the first person to invite himself is coming to play some tunes on this coming Monday.
> ...


It’s worthwhile revisiting one of Rob’s older posts on why he thought external power supplies for the Dave were unnecessary since he went to great lengths to reduce the RF noise and switching noise in the DAC to extremely low levels. As always, your choice on whether to get an external PS, but it’s worth reading Rob’s design brief for the Dave.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-270#post-12770432


----------



## sm60

sm60 said:


> It’s worthwhile revisiting one of Rob’s older posts on why he thought external power supplies for the Dave were unnecessary since he went to great lengths to reduce the RF noise and switching noise in the DAC to extremely low levels. As always, your choice on whether to get an external PS, but it’s worth reading Rob’s design brief for the Dave.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-270#post-12770432


And just to make this balanced, here’s a review  of the DC4 external power supply who cites Rob’s post above but disagrees with him on his analysis. It’s worth also noting as this reviewer does  that you need to be ultra cautious when opening up the Dave. One wrong connection with the Molex connector, which is unfortunately not keyed, and your Dave PCB goes up in smoke.

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...-sound-application-pgi-tt-7-part-1-of-2-r973/


----------



## Jon L

sm60 said:


> And just to make this balanced, here’s a review  of the DC4 external power supply
> 
> https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...-sound-application-pgi-tt-7-part-1-of-2-r973/


I enjoy entertaining audio reviews as much as the next guy, but when a review keeps piling on hyperbole after hyperbole after hyperbole with each addition in the same review, my eyes do roll, e.g. "kicking up several notches" "taken up to another level" "completely transform" “I'm done here, no more listening tests needed."  
These statements were made each step of the way of taking a $10,000 DAC, adding a $7300 power supply, then $15,000 power conditioner, replaced by $20,000 power conditioner, topped off by $4000 power cord x2.  

I must deduce from above that the owners of stock DAVE DAC without these upgrades must have sand in their ears and need to be saved STAT


----------



## The Jester

All relative I guess, there’s a few members in the MScaler thread, and I have no reason to doubt their opinion, that hear little to no difference with the MScaler in their system, and by the same token recognise there are those who perceive improvements that could be considered as “another level”, but that could apply to every component in the system, throw the same $$ as in the reviews at amplification or speakers etc and would you achieve similar results, in the end everything is made to a price point and I’m sure Chord themselves could use the technology in their amplifier designs to come up with a “reference” power supply for the same price or less than the Dave that would satisfy some people, but then it would be a debate out there “with or without” with those that can afford such luxuries saying the power supply is a “must have” leaving those who would otherwise be blissfully happy with the “stand alone Dave” looking elsewhere, if every HiFi component was designed and built with a “cost no object “ brief I can only imagine what such a system would sound like, and for the vast majority never to own .


----------



## mammal

Jon L said:


> I enjoy entertaining audio reviews as much as the next guy, but when a review keeps piling on hyperbole after hyperbole after hyperbole with each addition in the same review, my eyes do roll, e.g. "kicking up several notches" "taken up to another level" "completely transform" “I'm done here, no more listening tests needed."
> These statements were made each step of the way of taking a $10,000 DAC, adding a $7300 power supply, then $15,000 power conditioner, replaced by $20,000 power conditioner, topped off by $4000 power cord x2.
> 
> I must deduce from above that the owners of stock DAVE DAC without these upgrades must have sand in their ears and need to be saved STAT





The Jester said:


> All relative I guess, there’s a few members in the MScaler thread, and I have no reason to doubt their opinion, that hear little to no difference with the MScaler in their system, and by the same token recognise there are those who perceive improvements that could be considered as “another level”, but that could apply to every component in the system, throw the same $$ as in the reviews at amplification or speakers etc and would you achieve similar results, in the end everything is made to a price point and I’m sure Chord themselves could use the technology in their amplifier designs to come up with a “reference” power supply for the same price or less than the Dave that would satisfy some people, but then it would be a debate out there “with or without” with those that can afford such luxuries saying the power supply is a “must have” leaving those who would otherwise be blissfully happy with the “stand alone Dave” looking elsewhere, if every HiFi component was designed and built with a “cost no object “ brief I can only imagine what such a system would sound like, and for the vast majority never to own .


People like to tinker. Once they acquire Dave, they may think "what is next". Maybe M Scaler, and after that BNC cables, and then power supply, and then battery powered generator, and tinkering goes on. The sooner folks realise their enjoyment comes from "tinkering", trying things out, researching, talking about it, more realistic will they get and hopefully less hyperbolic reviews they will write, as they will be more honest with themselves and their readers about what was the original motivation. I have heard folks who own HE-1 tell me that "without an upgraded power cord don't even bother getting it". Perhaps true to them, but to me as a reader, sounds like a hyperbolly again.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...on the other hand: How do you think new products are developed?

Some people buy what others sell. That's great. And happy listening.

Some people buy (or make) something and think: What if...

Luckily, there are still a few tinkerers around, otherwise we'd have to listen to Ogg banging rib bones on an old log for music.


----------



## LucyWu

MarkusBarkus said:


> Luckily, there are still a few tinkerers around, otherwise we'd have to listen to Ogg banging rib bones on an old log for music.


I think I have that album! (Sounds great on the Dave)


----------



## sm60 (Aug 5, 2021)

The Jester said:


> All relative I guess, there’s a few members in the MScaler thread, and I have no reason to doubt their opinion, that hear little to no difference with the MScaler in their system, and by the same token recognise there are those who perceive improvements that could be considered as “another level”, but that could apply to every component in the system, throw the same $$ as in the reviews at amplification or speakers etc and would you achieve similar results, in the end everything is made to a price point and I’m sure Chord themselves could use the technology in their amplifier designs to come up with a “reference” power supply for the same price or less than the Dave that would satisfy some people, but then it would be a debate out there “with or without” with those that can afford such luxuries saying the power supply is a “must have” leaving those who would otherwise be blissfully happy with the “stand alone Dave” looking elsewhere, if every HiFi component was designed and built with a “cost no object “ brief I can only imagine what such a system would sound like, and for the vast majority never to own .


I’ve been trying an interesting experiment over the last few days, hooking up my Blu Mk2 M-scaler BNC output to a Tact S2150 true digital pulse width modulation (PWM) amplifier. For those not familiar with PWM amplifiers, they are completely unlike the usual class D amplifiers in that there is no analog input and in fact there is no low level D/A conversion at all. The bitstream from the M-scaler (which is usually 176.4 kHz for CD material and 192 kHz for other higher Rez sources like 96khz 24 bit recordings) is converted into a 384 kHz bitstream and then a pulse width modulated bitstream using a 98MHz clocked processor. The key point is that the volume control in this amplifier is not in the signal path at all In the usual manner. This means volume control is done by directly changing the output voltage. The bitstream is converted into analog by a passive RC (resistor capacitor) network. Essentially this is about as pure a signal path as you are likely to get, short of having a loudspeaker that directly converts a digital bitstream into sound pressure waves (such a beast does not yet exist, but if someone designed it, it might revolutionize high end audio). Anyway, PWM amplifiers like the Tact sound quite different.  There is essentially no analog noise of any kind. You can turn up the volume to 100% and you hear nothing if no music is playing (since no conversion is happening, the amplifier outputs no signal). The elimination of the usual solid state analog noise or tube noise can be disconcerting at first. When the music goes quiet, the amplifier adds no tell tale analog noise so it can sound very weird when you hear this. It sounds like something is wrong with the dynamic range. Then the music goes loud, and wham, the intensity increases abruptly. It tells you a lot about how all analog amplifiers editorialize the input signal. Tact is now non-existent as a company, but I bought this amplifier cheap on eBay for $700. Not bad for a 150w true digital amplifier (Power doubles to 300 w into 4 ohms). It’s quite heavy, about 40 pounds in weight.

The idea here is to isolate the effects of the M-scaler without using Dave as a traditional DAC in preamplifier mode, which relies on the usual ladder conversion of digital bitstreams into analog, like all DAC’s do, and there is no digital volume control at all 😄. As you might expect, the sound is quite different from using the Dave. There is an inherent sweetness to the sound that comes from having no low level D/A conversion. But it takes some getting used to. You might want to try it yourself. Lyngdorf amps use the same PWM principle, but they are more expensive. They include RoomPerfect room correction software as well. Some Tact amplifiers have a simpler version of room correction as well.


----------



## edwardsean

Just finished reading Jay’s review of audiophile power supplies. In it he covers the Dave w/ DC-4, but the whole thing is a great read!

https://audiobacon.net/2021/08/06/the-worlds-best-audiophile-linear-power-supplies/


----------



## Jon L

edwardsean said:


> Just finished reading Jay’s review of audiophile power supplies. In it he covers the Dave w/ DC-4, but the whole thing is a great read!
> 
> https://audiobacon.net/2021/08/06/the-worlds-best-audiophile-linear-power-supplies/



Thanks for the link.  I don't know how Jay does these massive comparisons without going insane, e.g. the power cord shootout also.  
As I suspected, though, Allo Shanti is a fantastic value at $159.


----------



## alxw0w

If somebody is interested in Dave vs May comparison, here is my take: CLICK


----------



## tunes

The real question is should I ditch my DAVE/Mscaler and and buy a Holomay?????

I don’t like Kebob or steak.  Now what??


----------



## Ragnar-BY

tunes said:


> The real question is should I ditch my DAVE/Mscaler and and buy a Holomay?????


May is good, but not an “upgrade” by any means.



tunes said:


> I don’t like Kebob or steak. Now what??


Pizza 🤣


----------



## Slim1970

tunes said:


> The real question is should I ditch my DAVE/Mscaler and and buy a Holomay?????
> 
> I don’t like Kebob or steak.  Now what??


Nooo, don't do it, haha.


----------



## DJJEZ

tunes said:


> The real question is should I ditch my DAVE/Mscaler and and buy a Holomay?????
> 
> I don’t like Kebob or steak.  Now what??


No don't ditch. Buy the holo may additionally and see for yourself


----------



## Triode User

Ragnar-BY said:


> May is good, but not an “upgrade” by any means.



I bought a Holo May L2 because it was the only realistic way of hearing it in my own system over a few weeks. 

I really did not like it very much at all. Depending on what price one pays for it then it might be quite good for the money but in my opinion it is no where near a Dave by itself never mind Dave + Mscaler.

I sold the Holo May after 3 weeks and do not miss it. To be honest I preferred the Qutest with a really good power supply, total cost about the same as the Holo May.


----------



## Articnoise

edwardsean said:


> Just finished reading Jay’s review of audiophile power supplies. In it he covers the Dave w/ DC-4, but the whole thing is a great read!
> 
> https://audiobacon.net/2021/08/06/the-worlds-best-audiophile-linear-power-supplies/



I usually like his shootout, but I don't think this gave me much. There were a lot of sound descriptions he used that were completely new to me (and I have read many) and others where he seems to give common terms a slightly different meaning than what I am used to. A glossary might have been in order.


----------



## TheAttorney (Aug 9, 2021)

Articnoise said:


> I usually like his shootout, but I don't think this gave me much. There were a lot of sound descriptions he used that were completely new to me (and I have read many) and others where he seems to give common terms a slightly different meaning than what I am used to. A glossary might have been in order.


Yes, I also generally like Jay's shootouts, but have also struggled with his descriptive terms in the past. This latest shootout seems to be drowning in confusing descriptions, and I've found it particularly hard to decipher the absolute and relative merits of each product, or which one would suit me best - to the point I gave up reading the full reviews. Shame because there's probably a lot of useful information in there if I had the patience to find it.


----------



## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> Yes, I also generally like Jay's shootouts, but have also struggled with his descriptive terms in the past. This latest shootout seems to be drowning in confusing descriptions, and I've found it particularly hard to decipher the absolute and relative merits of each product, or which one would suit me best - to the point I gave up reading the full reviews. Shame because there's probably a lot of useful information in there if I had the patience to find it.


I have to agree with what has been said even though by and large Jay does a good job and this was obviously a marathon undertaking. As usual the only way to really know is to listen oneself and already a few Head-Fi members have asked if they can and come to listen to my DC4 powered Dave and I am happy to extend an invitation to anyone in the UK who would like to do that.


----------



## NYanakiev

I currently use a Sonore Optical Rendu+Optical Module Deluxe that I have been very happy with but I started having some Roon connection issues lately.
Anyone using a 2Go+2Yu as a source for Dave/Dave+Mscaler? Would appreciate some feedback on performance/reliability. 

Cheers!


----------



## Ragnar-BY

NYanakiev said:


> I currently use a Sonore Optical Rendu+Optical Module Deluxe that I have been very happy with but I started having some Roon connection issues lately.
> Anyone using a 2Go+2Yu as a source for Dave/Dave+Mscaler? Would appreciate some feedback on performance/reliability.
> 
> Cheers!


Another endpoint might not help. Check your router. I had some issues with Roon when I was using basic Asus router. After switching to more advanced Mikrotik Audience everything works fine.


----------



## NYanakiev

Ragnar-BY said:


> Another endpoint might not help. Check your router. I had some issues with Roon when I was using basic Asus router. After switching to more advanced Mikrotik Audience everything works fine.


I currently use a rather high end router in the ASUS RT-AX88U. I also have a Devolo powerline ethernet adapter that feeds goes to the Optical Module Deluxe, which in turn feeds the Optical Rendu. I got the Devolo adapter replaced to eliminate it as the source of the problem- which did not help.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

NYanakiev said:


> Devolo powerline ethernet adapter that feeds goes to the Optical Module Deluxe


This is used for establishing network connection through wires in wall outlets? If so, it's not very reliable thing to use IMO.


----------



## ecwl

NYanakiev said:


> I currently use a rather high end router in the ASUS RT-AX88U. I also have a Devolo powerline ethernet adapter that feeds goes to the Optical Module Deluxe, which in turn feeds the Optical Rendu. I got the Devolo adapter replaced to eliminate it as the source of the problem- which did not help.


Network connection issues are always complex and usually not streamer dependent (as in it wouldn't matter whether you're running Optical Rendu or 2Yu+2Go).
If you're running on Wi-Fi (the whole system or part of it which would be necessary for your iPad to control Roon), buying a bigger router like ASUS RT-AX88U doesn't always help because the new problem probably started because your neighbor's new Wi-Fi router is interfering with yours so now you have a bigger router to overpower your neighbor's router but your neighbor can always get an even bigger router. Moreover, interference is usually intermittent and unpredictable.
Powerline products can be very helpful if you can't physically wire your router to the Optical Rendu with a physical Ethernet cable. However, even these Powerline products work less well with distance which can affect connection speeds but usually for streaming audio, it should still be more than fast enough. Although for audiophiles who love using power conditioners, these power filters can potentially filter the signals from the Powerline products so one has to be careful which power socket they use for the Powerline products. The bigger issue is that now some Powerline products have Wi-Fi router built-in. So your Devolo Wi-Fi can potentially interfere with your ASUS Wi-Fi and together with interference from your neighbor's Wi-Fi it becomes a bit of a gong show.
Note none of the above discussions have anything to do with Optical Rendu vs 2Yu+2Go.
Ultimately, it would be best for @NYanakiev to describe the current network setup in detail and the connection issues that are occurring. But I'm not sure if this is the best thread to discuss the issue. Not sure if @NYanakiev wants to PM me to talk about this more or whether @NYanakiev wants to just post more information about the issues and then let people PM him back with some suggested solutions.


----------



## NYanakiev

Ragnar-BY said:


> This is used for establishing network connection through wires in wall outlets? If so, it's not very reliable thing to use IMO.


These are normally super reliable. Things were going really smoothly until about a few days ago, which is what I am trying to troubleshoot. 
It has taken a bit of time and effort but I'd rather do that than have yet another wire running through my flat.


----------



## Sampajanna

If using xlr directly from Dave to amp could the rca go to a subwoofer(s) simultaneously?


----------



## miketlse

Sampajanna said:


> If using xlr directly from Dave to amp could the rca go to a subwoofer(s) simultaneously?


I remember reading posts about using active or powered subwoofers on the chord threads. If you search you should discover if they are dave specific, or more generic.


----------



## ecwl

Sampajanna said:


> If using xlr directly from Dave to amp could the rca go to a subwoofer(s) simultaneously?


Yes. I used to do this all the time. DAVE XLR to my amp to my speakers and RCA to my powered subwoofers


----------



## adrianm

Is anyone planning on getting the Audeze Crbn for Dave? and if so, what amp would you go for? I'm wondering how it would fare with a Woo WES


----------



## VladYR

The idea of those headphones is interesting but the necessity of an electrostatic amp and some very good interconnects makes it less appealing. At minimum it’s a $10,000 investment. I’d rather get a pair of Linn series 5 active speakers. At least one can be certain of their quality.


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> The idea of those headphones is interesting but the necessity of an electrostatic amp and some very good interconnects makes it less appealing. At minimum it’s a $10,000 investment. I’d rather get a pair of Linn series 5 active speakers. At least one can be certain of their quality.


That’s true,but i’m not even sure i want open backs, let alone speakers. It’s not far off from the Abyss and a dedicated amp (since the consensus is they need one). Just remains to be seen if it’s actually better.But even if not,the weight and form factor makes it a more attractive option


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> That’s true,but i’m not even sure i want open backs, let alone speakers. It’s not far off from the Abyss and a dedicated amp (since the consensus is they need one). Just remains to be seen if it’s actually better.But even if not,the weight and form factor makes it a more attractive option


I was surprised by how light they are. Audeze usually creates head vises that weigh a ton. Given my recent experience with owning electrostatic headphones, I’d likely pass. They tend to lack bass in the moderate to loud range, after which they tend to distort. If you want something that’s easy to drive that sounds phenomenal on the Dave, give Meze Empyrean a try.

By the way, how do you like the sound of Z1R with the Dave & M Scaler?


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> I was surprised by how light they are. Audeze usually creates head vises that weigh a ton. Given my recent experience with owning electrostatic headphones, I’d likely pass. They tend to lack bass in the moderate to loud range, after which they tend to distort. If you want something that’s easy to drive that sounds phenomenal on the Dave, give Meze Empyrean a try.
> 
> By the way, how do you like the sound of Z1R with the Dave & M Scaler?


The bass is also my main concern. I’m one of tbe few z1r fanatics that still prefer it over most Totl headphones i’ve heard.Utopias would be my next choice,except the narrow soundstage…i loved the speed  of the he1000se but hated the tonality. i’ve heard that the empyreans are not great from a technical  perspective. I’d only go open back for something in another class,like the abyss or crbn (depending on the bass)


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> The bass is also my main concern. I’m one of tbe few z1r fanatics that still prefer it over most Totl headphones i’ve heard.Utopias would be my next choice,except the narrow soundstage…i loved the speed  of the he1000se but hated the tonality. i’ve heard that the empyreans are not great from a technical  perspective. I’d only go open back for something in another class,like the abyss or crbn (depending on the bass)


Both the Utopia and Empyrean were mentioned in the review article for the Warwick Acoustics Sonoma M1, which I owned for around 2 years. Either of those feel and sound better in their own ways than the above mentioned electrostatics. What really make them shine is a superb dac and an amp that’s well designed. Although Empyrean is not on the same level in terms of bass as LCD-4, in my opinion it does not disappoint in the least. Clarity and cohesiveness is fantastic, especially on complex tracks. The comfort level of these is simply beyond description.


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> Both the Utopia and Empyrean were mentioned in the review article for the Warwick Acoustics Sonoma M1, which I owned for around 2 years. Either of those feel and sound better in their own ways than the above mentioned electrostatics. What really make them shine is a superb dac and an amp that’s well designed. Although Empyrean is not on the same level in terms of bass as LCD-4, in my opinion it does not disappoint in the least. Clarity and cohesiveness is fantastic, especially on complex tracks. The comfort level of these is simply beyond description.


Well this provides some valuable insight. I've kept thinking i was missing out on stuff with the Z1R before i compared them to the Stellia, Utopia, Lcd-4z,He1000se. I guess it's the same with electrostatics , since i haven't heard any so far.
      I just prefer the Z1R to everything i've tried, especially since i need the isolation of closed backs .I have high hopes for the Audeze closed backs. The Hifiman  HE-R10p just seem...insulting. They cost more than the CRBN and have a stolen design + cheap build.
     I'm sure the Empyreans are nice, but unless they're above and beyond like i hear ppl describing the Abyss i'm not sure it's worth grabbing a pair. I'll definitely give them a listen next time though, who knows. I'm just waiting for new stuff to come out at the moment.


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> Well this provides some valuable insight. I've kept thinking i was missing out on stuff with the Z1R before i compared them to the Stellia, Utopia, Lcd-4z,He1000se. I guess it's the same with electrostatics , since i haven't heard any so far.
> I just prefer the Z1R to everything i've tried, especially since i need the isolation of closed backs .I have high hopes for the Audeze closed backs. The Hifiman  HE-R10p just seem...insulting. They cost more than the CRBN and have a stolen design + cheap build.
> I'm sure the Empyreans are nice, but unless they're above and beyond like i hear ppl describing the Abyss i'm not sure it's worth grabbing a pair. I'll definitely give them a listen next time though, who knows. I'm just waiting for new stuff to come out at the moment.


You haven’t been missing out on a lot to be honest. I had a pair of Z1R until moving on to the Dave and for the most part they beat the electrostatics that I had on almost every single aspect. The thing is, to arrive at that point, I spent a fair amount on Nordost power cords and Ansuz power conditioning. Likewise, Empyrean beats most electrostatic setups but at a significant cost. I mean, the Dave isn’t cheap by itself but with the addition of those other things, it sounds like a joke most people won’t understand. While Empyrean might not beat top of the line Abyss headphones, it’s worth having as part of one‘s collection.


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> You haven’t been missing out on a lot to be honest. I had a pair of Z1R until moving on to the Dave and for the most part they beat the electrostatics that I had on almost every single aspect. The thing is, to arrive at that point, I spent a fair amount on Nordost power cords and Ansuz power conditioning. Likewise, Empyrean beats most electrostatic setups but at a significant cost. I mean, the Dave isn’t cheap by itself but with the addition of those other things, it sounds like a joke most people won’t understand. While Empyrean might not beat top of the line Abyss headphones, it’s worth having as part of one‘s collection.


What about your streamer? Still on the fence about those but coming around…


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> What about your streamer? Still on the fence about those but coming around…


Linn Selekt DSM with the Katalyst dac is great. It has a very light, transparent and airy presentation. A very satisfying listening session every time I use it. The nice thing about it is that it’s modular so it can be tailored to one’s specific usage, although the price can jump significantly. Naim makes some nice streamers in its classic line but for headphone listening I still prefer Linn because of its effortless sound signature. Naim is a bit darker but that may not be a bad thing with some speakers and music servers that tend to be on a brighter side.


----------



## Silvertone4

VladYR said:


> Linn Selekt DSM with the Katalyst dac is great. It has a very light, transparent and airy presentation. A very satisfying listening session every time I use it. The nice thing about it is that it’s modular so it can be tailored to one’s specific usage, although the price can jump significantly. Naim makes some nice streamers in its classic line but for headphone listening I still prefer Linn because of its effortless sound signature. Naim is a bit darker but that may not be a bad thing with some speakers and music servers that tend to be on a brighter side.


----------



## Silvertone4

Hi Everyone 

Question on DAVE Display Mode 4.

I’ve had this unit for several years, today after reshuffling some components around Display Mode 4 never goes into screen saving mode.
The screen blinks black every 30 seconds or so but it continues to display.

Has anyone ran into this or knows how to fix it?

Thanks in advance !


----------



## VladYR

Silvertone4 said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> Question on DAVE Display Mode 4.
> 
> ...


Have you tried powering it off completely and leaving it like that for let’s say an hour? A lot of common problems can be resolved by unplugging and draining the device of electricity. Additionally, I would try cycling through the display modes and resettling on 4. Hope this helps.


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> Clarity and cohesiveness


This is exactly why i preferred the Utopia to the technically superior He1000se.


VladYR said:


> Naim makes some nice streamers in its classic line


Haven't had much experience with them, but , i went with a friend to listen to some KEF R7 a Unity Atom. I suggested he try  a Qutest + Node2i +Naim amp for them over the Atom, and it was ridiculous how much better the combo was for the same price. He left with the speakers and combo.


VladYR said:


> I had a pair of Z1R until moving on to the Dave


Did you get a chance to hear them with Dave? I've used them with everything from a Fiio E10k, Mojo, Ta-Zh1es and Dave. They just scale incredibly well. Also, i think the stock cable is terrible, same with the Sony Kimber.
    A pure silver cable really opens them up. 2 year ago me would hate me for saying this. I've tried going back to them while i send the silver one out for repair and let's just say it's been almost a year and i still haven't sent it.


VladYR said:


> The thing is, to arrive at that point, I spent a fair amount on Nordost power cords and Ansuz power conditioning


Huge power conditioning advocate, though a lot of people think it's snake oil. Which is ironic since i started out thinking everything is. I came around on most stuff (Still on the fence on some aspects of streamers and some cables).
     I'm using an Isotek Sirius with Premier power chord. Decently priced and they make a world of difference. I've tried a 5k Crystal Connect power cable for a weekend just to see the delta and i didn't like it to be honest. The difference was so small and it just sounded...thinner and a bit harsher with the same mains filter.
    I was thinking auditioning some of the higher end Isotek stuff since i'm already sold on them, but i', waiting until we move in the new place.

   I'm also considering getting a separate circuit for Dave, since it shouldn't be that hard to do in a new place, but i'm not sure what exactly the benefits would be or how exactly it should be done.  Or if it even matters for headphone listening.


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> This is exactly why i preferred the Utopia to the technically superior He1000se.
> 
> Haven't had much experience with them, but , i went with a friend to listen to some KEF R7 a Unity Atom. I suggested he try  a Qutest + Node2i +Naim amp for them over the Atom, and it was ridiculous how much better the combo was for the same price. He left with the speakers and combo.
> 
> ...


I tried the Z1R with the Dave for a few hours and wasn’t thrilled. It sounded a bit fatiguing and closed in. This wasn’t a problem on TA-ZH1ES with the same cables. The stock cable could be better. I had a Nordost Heimdall 2 cable for them, which sounded great with the Sony amp. Strangely, Sony MDR-Z7 sounds better with the stock cable than the Z1R with the upgraded cable. I suspect it’s tied to the difference in the level of isolation. Z7 has less of it.

In a few days I’m going to demo a power switch from Ansuz. According to a few reviews it seems to make quite a bit of difference with streaming based systems. Next week I’m picking up a few servers to test out with the Linn to see which one pairs better and offers a better sound signature. This hobby is hell on one’s bank account 😂🤣😄


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> This wasn’t a problem on TA-ZH1ES with the same cables


It's funny, i was a happy camper when i got the TA for my Z1R. Thought i had found my endgame. Dynamics were great, but  for resolving ability i still much preferred the Mojo. One day i took it for a comparison with the TT2, and i was really happy with the TA holding it's own. Adding the M-scaler made it pull ahead though. Figured i'd give Dave a try, how much better could it be? 10 seconds in i decided i was returning the TA and saving up until i can afford Dave. The difference was so stark i didn't even bother adding the M-scaler , completely forgot.


VladYR said:


> This hobby is hell on one’s bank account


True, i have so little time these days to test everything out and compare that i'm probably  sticking with what i have until that  rumored Dave headphone amp finally comes out at least. A one box solution is attractive. I'm still not ruling out eventually switching to a Bartok , even though i genuinely believe Dave M-scaler is better from feedback i got from people. But adding another headphone amp, a streamer, keeping the M-scaler on a battery. It's just so many boxes and so much faffing around.


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> It's funny, i was a happy camper when i got the TA for my Z1R. Thought i had found my endgame. Dynamics were great, but  for resolving ability i still much preferred the Mojo. One day i took it for a comparison with the TT2, and i was really happy with the TA holding it's own. Adding the M-scaler made it pull ahead though. Figured i'd give Dave a try, how much better could it be? 10 seconds in i decided i was returning the TA and saving up until i can afford Dave. The difference was so stark i didn't even bother adding the M-scaler , completely forgot.
> 
> True, i have so little time these days to test everything out and compare that i'm probably  sticking with what i have until that  rumored Dave headphone amp finally comes out at least. A one box solution is attractive. I'm still not ruling out eventually switching to a Bartok , even though i genuinely believe Dave M-scaler is better from feedback i got from people. But adding another headphone amp, a streamer, keeping the M-scaler on a battery. It's just so many boxes and so much faffing around.


It took about 1-2 hours for me to appreciate the Dave for what it is. I gave the M Scaler a try about a month after buying the Dave. The difference that it made was too big to put off buying much longer.

In all honesty, skip the Bartok. Give it a try if you must but in my personal experience it was really disappointing. In some ways a one box design can be attractive but I’ll take my three (Linn, Dave, M Scaler) any day over Bartok. Dave alone sounds way better even with a stock power cable straight out of the wall outlet. M Scaler changes the sound so much that the race is over before it even began. Linn just makes everything better in this setup. Granted all three cost more and take up slightly more space but the end result is worth it.


----------



## Slim1970

VladYR said:


> It took about 1-2 hours for me to appreciate the Dave for what it is. I gave the M Scaler a try about a month after buying the Dave. The difference that it made was too big to put off buying much longer.
> 
> In all honesty, skip the Bartok. Give it a try if you must but in my personal experience it was really disappointing. In some ways a one box design can be attractive but I’ll take my three (Linn, Dave, M Scaler) any day over Bartok. Dave alone sounds way better even with a stock power cable straight out of the wall outlet. M Scaler changes the sound so much that the race is over before it even began. Linn just makes everything better in this setup. Granted all three cost more and take up slightly more space but the end result is worth it.


Are you feeding the Linn directly into the Dave or through the M-Scaler?


----------



## VladYR

Slim1970 said:


> Are you feeding the Linn directly into the Dave or through the M-Scaler?


I’m feeding the Linn into the M Scaler although Dave and Linn on their own sound quite satisfying also.


----------



## Slim1970

VladYR said:


> I’m feeding the Linn into the M Scaler although Dave and Linn on their own sound quite satisfying also.


Nice, I was reading up on the Linn and it looks like it can function on its own.


----------



## VladYR

Slim1970 said:


> Nice, I was reading up on the Linn and it looks like it can function on its own.


It’s a great streamer but I have a sizable offline collection, which I generally prefer to streaming online content. While Qobuz is a great sounding service, it has gaps. I avoid Tidal for many reasons. I’m looking to add a file server some time this fall. Innuos is very promising. Naim Uniti Core seems like a very nice alternative with a footprint smaller than the M Scaler.


----------



## Slim1970

I have no clue which way I want to go to further improve the sound coming from the Dave. I’ve never considered a streamer or something like the Innuos until now.


----------



## VladYR

Slim1970 said:


> I have no clue which way I want to go to further improve the sound coming from the Dave. I’ve never considered a streamer or something like the Innuos until now.


It’s worth exploring both directions. Some streamers, Naim in particular, have a built in server functionality so additional servers might not make sense for the most part. Linn, with the exception of the new Klimax, lack it and thus need something else unless you are 100% into streaming. Innuos has a really nice interface and its usb output sounded great when I paired it with a Sony amp. I’m really eager to hear it again with my new gear. I’ll post some impressions next week.


----------



## DJJEZ

Slim1970 said:


> I have no clue which way I want to go to further improve the sound coming from the Dave. I’ve never considered a streamer or something like the Innuos until now.


Innuos zenith mk 3 and phoenix usb reclocker would be the way


----------



## jlbrach

DJJEZ said:


> Innuos zenith mk 3 and phoenix usb reclocker would be the way


I  second that....I have been thrilled at the improvement the innuos combo gave me


----------



## Slim1970

DJJEZ said:


> Innuos zenith mk 3 and phoenix usb reclocker would be the way


That is a stellar combo. I'll have to look into it.


----------



## adrianm

Slim1970 said:


> I have no clue which way I want to go to further improve the sound coming from the Dave. I’ve never considered a streamer or something like the Innuos until now.


Long time no see, glad to see you've jumped onto the Dave bandwagon.


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> In all honesty, skip the Bartok. Give it a try if you must but in my personal experience it was really disappointing. In some ways a one box design can be attractive but I’ll take my three (Linn, Dave, M Scaler) any day over Bartok. Dave alone sounds way better even with a stock power cable straight out of the wall outlet. M Scaler changes the sound so much that the race is over before it even began. Linn just makes everything better in this setup. Granted all three cost more and take up slightly more space but the end result is worth it.


This is pretty much what everyone's been telling me.  I'm a bit confused as to why you went for the Linn though. Especially with Katalyst dac. I thought its purpose was an all in one, why not just a dedicated streamer? Or an Innuos server since you need the functionality. 
    I'm curious as to what upgrade it would bring, or 2go2yu (but i just can't be bothered with bad software and instability) compared to my gaming pc via optical. I've found optical beats usb out of any source i've used so far, even macbook pro 16 on battery.
     I was  shocked at the difference when i upgraded my gaming pc psu from a lower end Corsair to a AX1000 with "japanese capacitors".3 times the price, but by far the cheapest upgrade i've made my system. Same when comparing Audirvana Studio to the Tidal app (even when running in exclusive mode and etc). So i'm now curious how much better a streamer would make things. I did audition the Auralic G1 vs my macbook pro as a source and was unimpressed, but that was in the store.


----------



## mammal

adrianm said:


> Huge power conditioning advocate, though a lot of people think it's snake oil. Which is ironic since i started out thinking everything is. I came around on most stuff (Still on the fence on some aspects of streamers and some cables).


There is no substitute to personal experience. In my years on head-fi, I have seen people claim night and day differences in parts that I tried and could not tell a difference (Chord Hugo M Scaler nor dCS Rossini Clock), yet, I feel I can discern differences between copper and silver headphone cables. So perhaps our ears/brains are sensitive to other things, mine is all about frequency response and others could be timing precision. Worth demoing even gear that you may think is a snakeoil, just to see for yourself, it may convince you, or not. Especially if a significant other helps you to do a proper blind ABX test.


----------



## ecwl

adrianm said:


> I'm curious as to what upgrade it would bring, or 2go2yu (but i just can't be bothered with bad software and instability) compared to my gaming pc via optical. I've found optical beats usb out of any source i've used so far, even macbook pro 16 on battery.


I personally have tried to optimize my USB source for years and also in the end stuck with optical as I wasn’t able to beat it. My iPad USB into M-Scaler/DAVE sounds identical to Toslink though. 

That said, it’s true that I haven’t heard or tried a lot of really high-end streamers into DAVE via USB. And I know some people on this thread swear by them. For me, I finally decided I spent too much time and money on optimizing my USB source already and I just decided to stick with optical input and start enjoying the music.


----------



## griff500

I found an Auralic Aries G2 provided a noticeable improvement. Innuos products are well-made and have good power supplies, plus the new app is supposed to be very good.

I am also a big believer in quality power and have spent a bit on Ansuz C2 distributor and power cables and found a noticeable improvement in sound quality, along with a decent ethernet cable and a PhoenixNET switch (you might be surprised how much difference a decent ethernet cable can make - I was).


----------



## adrianm

mammal said:


> There is no substitute to personal experience. In my years on head-fi, I have seen people claim night and day differences in parts that I tried and could not tell a difference (Chord Hugo M Scaler nor dCS Rossini Clock), yet, I feel I can discern differences between copper and silver headphone cables. So perhaps our ears/brains are sensitive to other things, mine is all about frequency response and others could be timing precision. Worth demoing even gear that you may think is a snakeoil, just to see for yourself, it may convince you, or not. Especially if a significant other helps you to do a proper blind ABX test.


   100% agree, no substitute for testing yourself, and being mindful of the test conditions. I also really think you should try before you buy. After you've bought it, you're biased. Even if you can return it. You're already sold on the marketing/pseudoscience/others' opinions. For my Z1R i feel like the difference the silver cable makes is huge. And i don't mean the typical audiophile " silver is brighter, copper is smoother ". I mean it just flat out sounds better all across the spectrum with better dynamics. But the same cable made zero difference with the Dave M-scaler and Hifiman Arya. So that i can't really explain, but i wasn't as familiar with them as i was with the Z1R,only had them in for a weekend.
I  might have the bad luck of being sensitive to both.   Not sure about the Rossini, but the M-scaler was a wild ride for me. First try it made everything worse, turns out it was the Optical cable that was the problem, since it didn't fit all the way in. 
    Second round i heard it for the massive improvement it was. But also heard the terrible effect of the RFI it introduced. So it was a mixed bag. A battery helped tremendously, but i feel like there still might be some more noise in there. @Triode User  is ignoring me though 
  Also switching between M-scaler passthrough is deceiving, because even with it off, if the BNCS are connected, you're still getting the RF degradation. So Solo Dave sounds better than M-scaler connected in passthrough.


----------



## atya35mm

It looks like the streamer believers and coming out of the woodworks!   

Check out antipodes line as well. I was initially considering an Auralic Aries G2, but went down deeper into the rabbit hole than I expected.


----------



## mammal

adrianm said:


> 100% agree, no substitute for testing yourself, and being mindful of the test conditions. I also really think you should try before you buy. After you've bought it, you're biased. Even if you can return it. You're already sold on the marketing/pseudoscience/others' opinions.


Oh absolutely, once you have spent the money, you are biased one way or the other. I for one, lean towards "crap crap crap, I spent so much money on this new piece and I don't hear a difference, audio is a scam, let me sell everything I own and go back to earbuds" camp prematurely. Then I collect myself, slow down and properly test the new gear, to see if it is worth the cost, as sometimes I do hear a difference, but I cannot justify the cost to my wife.


----------



## adrianm

atya35mm said:


> It looks like the streamer believers and coming out of the woodworks!
> 
> Check out antipodes line as well. I was initially considering an Auralic Aries G2, but went down deeper into the rabbit hole than I expected.


I'm a few auditions away from being a true believer, at the moment i've just conceded that even via optical, in an as noisy gaming pc as possible (3080 ti and 9900k) a decent PSU makes a difference. So now I do believe there's gains to be had from not having your data source be a 5$ Realtek controller on a gaming motherboard  Though it does have "audiophile grade audio " .
   Not planning on going that crazy with spending though, I was thinking more of a 2Go2Yu or Zenith mk3/Auralic at most.


----------



## bdjul

a little bit off topic, but Sony z1r is really sensitive to cables. Somehow they respond very well on cable rolling.  I tried changing cable on several different headphones and difference wasn’t as noticeable as with z1r


----------



## adrianm

bdjul said:


> a little bit off topic, but Sony z1r is really sensitive to cables. Somehow they respond very well on cable rolling.  I tried changing cable on several different headphones and difference wasn’t as noticeable as with z1r


Must be the massive drivers


----------



## Sampajanna

I have a Finaltouch Audio USB for sale if any of you are interested. It is great for the Dave. I used it up until I upgraded some time back. Mint condition and with felt bag. PM me if interested.


----------



## burbster

ecwl said:


> I personally have tried to optimize my USB source for years and also in the end stuck with optical as I wasn’t able to beat it. My iPad USB into M-Scaler/DAVE sounds identical to Toslink though.
> 
> That said, it’s true that I haven’t heard or tried a lot of really high-end streamers into DAVE via USB. And I know some people on this thread swear by them. For me, I finally decided I spent too much time and money on optimizing my USB source already and I just decided to stick with optical input and start enjoying the music.


I have had a similar experience but have gone a step further (back, as some will say!) I spent a lot of time and money on various servers and streamers, I have owned Auralic aries, G1 and G2, Melco, Innuos and for the last 18 months I have owned an antipodes CX & EX, which I though, certainly at the time, was the best sounding to my ears for the money. I spent further money on Ethernet leads,  Ethernet switches, reclockers, USB leads etc etc. I completely and utterly bought into the whole 'file based hi res content is superior' narrative. Then, after being forced to resort to a really cheap CD transport for a short period, (home network was down)  it piqued my interest and after a few weeks I went out an bought a bottom of the range CEC, (roughly £2700 in UK) and I was faced with the very inconvenient truth, (literally inconvenient as I have to physically get up to change CDs!) that the CD just sounds better. I now have £17K worth of digital front end that I have relegated to a second system, it is actually quite heartbreaking as I am thinking how good my primary system could have been had I spent that money more wisely. There is no doubt that the convenience issue is huge, and I do miss the almost infinite choices I had whilst streaming, but despite all my efforts, try as I may, I just cannot get the server based solution to sound as good as a modest CD transport! 

I have not tried the new Antipodes K50 or the Extreme Server, perhaps I would change my mind again if I did. I also have no doubt that in time the Server/Streamer solutions will reach their full potential and obliterate the humble CD transport, in my experience however we are just not at that point yet!


----------



## Lgn3

Roy Gregory wrote a very positive review of the CEC TL5 in HiFi+. It is accessible via https://www.definitiveaudio.co.uk/product-cec.html.


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> This is pretty much what everyone's been telling me.  I'm a bit confused as to why you went for the Linn though. Especially with Katalyst dac. I thought its purpose was an all in one, why not just a dedicated streamer? Or an Innuos server since you need the functionality.
> I'm curious as to what upgrade it would bring, or 2go2yu (but i just can't be bothered with bad software and instability) compared to my gaming pc via optical. I've found optical beats usb out of any source i've used so far, even macbook pro 16 on battery.
> I was  shocked at the difference when i upgraded my gaming pc psu from a lower end Corsair to a AX1000 with "japanese capacitors".3 times the price, but by far the cheapest upgrade i've made my system. Same when comparing Audirvana Studio to the Tidal app (even when running in exclusive mode and etc). So i'm now curious how much better a streamer would make things. I did audition the Auralic G1 vs my macbook pro as a source and was unimpressed, but that was in the store.


Well, for one I like its sound signature, particularly when paired with Dave and the M Scaler. While it can be an all in one sort of device if you add amplifier cartridges for speakers, Linn never really introduced one for headphone listening. That’s where Chord comes in. I know, it’s a ridiculously expensive proposition just for headphone based playback but for me it’s worth it. Going straight for the Innuos server could have worked but I’m looking in the long run where I will need a streamer that can tailor the sound to room acoustics, which are hardly ever ideal.

With regard to what it could bring in comparison to your gaming pc, that’s tough to tell given how we perceive sound differently. From a technical perspective, a much better and more accurate dac. USB can beat optical if implemented well. Innuos has certainly done it in a number of their products. You can find cheaper usb reclockers though.

Audirvana reduces usb noise considerably and focuses system resources towards music playback so it’s not surprising it sounds better than Tidal’s app. That’s besides the point that a good deal of Tidal’s current material is lossy. While some like Aurelic, I don’t buy Chinese made or Chinese designed equipment on principle. It’s of decidedly lower quality, not to mentioned that it’s intellectual property is of suspicious provenance. I don’t mind paying more for European or American brands. At the very least I would look at South Korean brands like Aurender.


----------



## VladYR

griff500 said:


> I found an Auralic Aries G2 provided a noticeable improvement. Innuos products are well-made and have good power supplies, plus the new app is supposed to be very good.
> 
> I am also a big believer in quality power and have spent a bit on Ansuz C2 distributor and power cables and found a noticeable improvement in sound quality, along with a decent ethernet cable and a PhoenixNET switch (you might be surprised how much difference a decent ethernet cable can make - I was).


Have you had a chance to try out the power switch by Ansuz? My dealer suggested I take one home when I’m over next time. This ought to be interesting.


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> I know, it’s a ridiculously expensive proposition just for headphone based playback but for me it’s worth it.


I'm headed down the same road, no judgement, no regrets . I've also got other hobbies to fund though.


VladYR said:


> but I’m looking in the long run where I will need a streamer that can tailor the sound to room acoustics, which are hardly ever ideal.


This is the part i didn't understand in the context of headphone listening, but i guess you're planning on going down the speaker route as well.


VladYR said:


> While some like Aurelic, I don’t buy Chinese made or Chinese designed equipment on principle. It’s of decidedly lower quality, not to mentioned that it’s intellectual property is of suspicious provenance. I don’t mind paying more for European or American brands.


 Same here on all accounts. I've auditioned a G1 and the casework and display were...unimpressive to say the least for that cost. My dealer suggested the Moon Mind 2 over the Innuous stuff since i don't need a server and other stuff they have though. So picking that up tomorrow for an audition over the weekend. Hopefully it will be better than the Naim. There's also a French company that's supposedly making some great streamers, 3d Lab, but open source software... If all else fails i'll probably audition a barebones Linn Selekt as well.


VladYR said:


> That’s besides the point that a good deal of Tidal’s current material is lossy.


It's pretty bad,  the only reason i've used it so far is because no way to stream apple music to Dave conveniently , Qobuz is only available with a VPN, but that doesn't solve the issue of not being able to download the app from the Apple store (Airpods and Carplay), Spotify HD isn't out yet (makes me wonder if i should hold out on a streamer until it is), Amazon ultra hd music doesn't even work properly in exclusive mode 1 year after launch, so i'm kinda stuck with Tidal for a while. But them replacing all of my playlist with MQA versions is driving me insane. I don't even have to check the app, i can just hear every time that happens.


----------



## VladYR (Aug 12, 2021)

adrianm said:


> I'm headed down the same road, no judgement, no regrets . I've also got other hobbies to fund though.
> 
> This is the part i didn't understand in the context of headphone listening, but i guess you're planning on going down the speaker route as well.
> 
> ...


I’m auditioning a number of devices some time next week. I’m kind of curious how they work with the Dave & M Scaler alone and with the streamer as a server. I can share some impressions about the Innuos if you’re interested.

I don’t know if you’ve been following the whole GoldenSound and Tidal scandal but basically MQA is seriously degraded cd quality or hd content that’s been mangled into that idiotic packaging that benefits only the firm behind MQA. There is a ton of high frequency noise that is audible contrary to what they’ve been saying. I mentioned this whole story to one of my dealers and he confirmed that whenever he listened to MQA streams he’d get headaches and listening fatigue.

With that in mind it might be worth considering a file server and local storage until either Qobuz expands into where you need it without resorting to VPN or Spotify HD coming out. Fortunately Linn has integration for both. I might actually consider Spotify when it does come out. I’m just not interested streaming lossy music for money. My current library is extensive enough to get by without repeats for quite a while. Lots of complete works of major composers and so much more other interesting material.

ps.

While I haven’t heard a barebones Linn Selekt, it’s possible to get the upgraded Katalyst dac after the purchase. From what I’ve been told it makes a significant difference. The cost isn’t significant relative to what either of us has spent so far on Dave and other snake oil products 🤣😁😂

If you do end up trying out the Linn, you can get by on using a router with a usb input as a server. I’m kind of doing that now. It’s not a perfect solution but it works. The organization of albums is kind of messy. They are alphabetical. Organizing it by artist makes a lot of the artwork missing. It beats using Audirvana though because I don’t really want to be involving the computer in playback anymore.


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> While I haven’t heard a barebones Linn Selekt, it’s possible to get the upgraded Katalyst dac after the purchase. From what I’ve been told it makes a significant difference.


Why does the dac matter if you're only using it as a transport to the M-scaler?


VladYR said:


> With that in mind it might be worth considering a file server and local storage until either Qobuz expands into where you need it without resorting to VPN or Spotify HD coming out


I have  no local files, though i might as well go down that road since i mostly listen to the same stuff over and over. I really hope Spotify HD sounds good, Tidal is terrible in discovery and SQ. I've been aware of how bad a format MQA is for 5 years now, but i've just avoided it. It's getting impossible though.


VladYR said:


> I can share some impressions about the Innuos if you’re interested.


Definitely.


VladYR said:


> It beats using Audirvana though because I don’t really want to be involving the computer in playback anymore.


I'm using my setup at my desk while working most of the time so for me adding another box on my crowded desk has to bring a really big improvement.


VladYR said:


> If you do end up trying out the Linn, you can get by on using a router with a usb input as a server.


Sounds like a good idea, finally a reason not to  feel guilty about overspending on the router


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> Why does the dac matter if you're only using it as a transport to the M-scaler?
> 
> I have  no local files, though i might as well go down that road since i mostly listen to the same stuff over and over. I really hope Spotify HD sounds good, Tidal is terrible in discovery and SQ. I've been aware of how bad a format MQA is for 5 years now, but i've just avoided it. It's getting impossible though.
> 
> ...


It matters because it’s a source. There’s a significant difference between let’s say a Microsoft Surface Book running Audirvana and a Linn streamer. Both are computers at their essence but the accuracy of their dac chips vary significantly. 

Local storage has some advantages over streaming. Little to no jitter induced timing errors (minus the network induced ones if you use the router as a source) although this can be mitigated by a number of audiophile switches. I’m bringing one home tomorrow for a trial. Even at 25% off retail it still costs around $2000 so who knows If it will be worth it. Extra virgin snake oil. You gotta love it 😄😄😄


----------



## atya35mm

burbster said:


> I have had a similar experience but have gone a step further (back, as some will say!) I spent a lot of time and money on various servers and streamers, I have owned Auralic aries, G1 and G2, Melco, Innuos and for the last 18 months I have owned an antipodes CX & EX, which I though, certainly at the time, was the best sounding to my ears for the money. I spent further money on Ethernet leads,  Ethernet switches, reclockers, USB leads etc etc. I completely and utterly bought into the whole 'file based hi res content is superior' narrative. Then, after being forced to resort to a really cheap CD transport for a short period, (home network was down)  it piqued my interest and after a few weeks I went out an bought a bottom of the range CEC, (roughly £2700 in UK) and I was faced with the very inconvenient truth, (literally inconvenient as I have to physically get up to change CDs!) that the CD just sounds better. I now have £17K worth of digital front end that I have relegated to a second system, it is actually quite heartbreaking as I am thinking how good my primary system could have been had I spent that money more wisely. There is no doubt that the convenience issue is huge, and I do miss the almost infinite choices I had whilst streaming, but despite all my efforts, try as I may, I just cannot get the server based solution to sound as good as a modest CD transport!
> 
> I have not tried the new Antipodes K50 or the Extreme Server, perhaps I would change my mind again if I did. I also have no doubt that in time the Server/Streamer solutions will reach their full potential and obliterate the humble CD transport, in my experience however we are just not at that point yet!


Good old humble cd transport! Curious, with the CX&EX, were you streaming or playing off local SSD files? I’ve got a CD ripped Norah Jones come away with me album (yes so cliche), and was just listening to it for a bit. Then switched to Qobuz uber mega high bit rate 192khz 24 bit stream of the same album, and boy I much prefer the CD rip. Again, my network connections aren’t optimised but the difference was quite clear. Couple of factors maybe, network optimisation not done so bad quality, or 192khz mastering not as good as cd mastering of 44.1khz etc.


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## Ciggavelli (Aug 12, 2021)

adrianm said:


> Why does the dac matter if you're only using it as a transport to the M-scaler?
> 
> I have  no local files, though i might as well go down that road since i mostly listen to the same stuff over and over. I really hope Spotify HD sounds good, Tidal is terrible in discovery and SQ. I've been aware of how bad a format MQA is for 5 years now, but i've just avoided it. It's getting impossible though.
> 
> ...


I kinda hate Tidal MQA files as well. I tend to always go with the Qobuz version instead. That is if Qobuz has the album. They do not have as large of a library compared to Tidal. Thus, Tidal is still a necessity.

Also, I got a new streamer/server (Antipodes K50), and I can verify that local files sound better than streamed ones. The K50 is very transparent in that regard, which is good and bad. It’s good if you have albums that are mixed and mastered properly, it sounds amazing. If the album is poorly mixed though, the flaws stick out too much.

I’ve been buying albums I like from Qobuz and Bandcamp just so I can use it locally.

Another rabbit hole is that using a Squeezlite player sounds better than using the default roon player. It makes no logical sense to me why software changes how albums sound, but for whatever reason they do alter the sound.


----------



## BassicScience

Ciggavelli said:


> I kinda hate Tidal MQA files as well. I tend to always go with the Qobuz version instead. That is if Qobuz has the album. They do not have as large of a library compared to Tidal. Thus, Tidal is still a necessity.
> 
> Also, I got a new streamer/server (Antipodes K50), and I can verify that local files sound better than streamed ones. The K50 is very transparent in that regard, which is good and bad. It’s good if you have albums that are mixed and mastered properly, it sounds amazing. If the album is poorly mixed though, the flaws stick out too much.
> 
> ...


Not to get OT here, but why do you hate Tidal MQA files? I don't really love the concept, but I can't say I've noticed much of a difference in sound quality either way from non-MQA files. FWIW, I also don't notice any sonic difference between playing local FLAC files and streaming the same versions from Tidal. If it's the same bits, how would your DAC know where they originated?


----------



## muski

Ciggavelli said:


> I can verify that local files sound better than streamed ones.


I felt the same way until I got a PhoenixNET. Sorry to tempt you


----------



## burbster

atya35mm said:


> Good old humble cd transport! Curious, with the CX&EX, were you streaming or playing off local SSD files? I’ve got a CD ripped Norah Jones come away with me album (yes so cliche), and was just listening to it for a bit. Then switched to Qobuz uber mega high bit rate 192khz 24 bit stream of the same album, and boy I much prefer the CD rip. Again, my network connections aren’t optimised but the difference was quite clear. Couple of factors maybe, network optimisation not done so bad quality, or 192khz mastering not as good as cd mastering of 44.1khz etc.


Hi, I was doing both _, _but similar to yourself I found locally stored files, even lower bit rate, sounded better than streamed. Despite my ‘audio’ network switches seperated by fibre optic, I still found the locally stored files sounded better with the cx disconnected from Ethernet. For serious listening I would start an album, then unplug the cx from the network, made a noticeable difference! But even then I still prefer cd transport, although in that scenario the delta was the smallest.


----------



## Triode User

burbster said:


> Hi, I was doing both _, _but similar to yourself I found locally stored files, even lower bit rate, sounded better than streamed. Despite my ‘audio’ network switches seperated by fibre optic, I still found the locally stored files sounded better with the cx disconnected from Ethernet. For serious listening I would start an album, then unplug the cx from the network, made a noticeable difference! But even then I still prefer cd transport, although in that scenario the delta was the smallest.



I went through all this when I had a Blu2 and there the challenge was to get a digital feed to the Blu2 to sound as good as a CD played on the Blu2. Now I no longer have the Blu2 and the only CD player I have is a vintage Meridian one which is definitely not a reference standard!

For the last few weeks though I have also been starting a locally stored file to play on my K50 and then pulled the ethernet cable from the back to get the best sound quality. That has become my reference. More recently I have been trying different audiophile switches (and a CISCO one) to see if I can approach that sound quality. Previously I had been using an EtherRegen with LPS really just on the basis that they get good reviews but compared to pulling the plug out of the back it was obvious that it was flavouring the sound. Not in a particularly bad way but it was different. I then had a demo of the Innuos PhoenixNET switch and as far as I can hear this achieves exactly what I wanted in that having it connected sounds the same as disconnecting my K50 from the ethernet. Success! Now I do not have to bother with the faff of starting a file playing and then pulling the ethernet plug from the rear of the K50. 

I still do not know of course how this sounds compared to a good CD player but perhaps one day I will get the opportunity to hear one because a friend has just bought one that he really rates. 😀 👍


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## burbster

I probably should add, (to appease the moderators and ensure this thread stays on topic), that the only reason I can hear these subtle but noticeable differences is down to the amazing accuracy and transparency of the DAVE/MSCALER combo, and how well they convey any changes in up steam components.


----------



## Ciggavelli

BassicScience said:


> Not to get OT here, but why do you hate Tidal MQA files? I don't really love the concept, but I can't say I've noticed much of a difference in sound quality either way from non-MQA files. FWIW, I also don't notice any sonic difference between playing local FLAC files and streaming the same versions from Tidal. If it's the same bits, how would your DAC know where they originated?


I have noticed that MQA files sometimes sound more digital than non-MQA files.  Also, I'm not sure why local files sound better.  I guess it may have something to do with the switch and ethernet cable.  I think I'm going to try the PhoenixNET, as multiple people have recommended it to me.  We'll see if that helps with the sound quality of streamed files


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## adrianm (Aug 13, 2021)

So i'm testing Charlin power cable and i hate how much of a difference it makes compared to my Isotek premier. It's definitely better,  but not 1k better. And if it was a lot better i'd gladly spend the 1k. It's pretty much only slightly better low level detail.
​​​


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## alxw0w

Some things about audio are really strange. Some time ago i switched from roon to lms. As the sq of lms was a bit better to me.
Unfortunately I really missed roon music discovery and whole user experience. In fact i was listening less because of that. I didn't discover much new music since then.
So lately i switched back to roon.
Still it's mind boggling why on earth different softwares sound different. I'm using same hardware, just different programs on my PC and raspberry transport.


----------



## Progisus

alxw0w said:


> Some things about audio are really strange. Some time ago i switched from roon to lms. As the sq of lms was a bit better to me.
> Unfortunately I really missed roon music discovery and whole user experience. In fact i was listening less because of that. I didn't discover much new music since then.
> So lately i switched back to roon.
> Still it's mind boggling why on earth different softwares sound different. I'm using same hardware, just different programs on my PC and raspberry transport.


Here’s my take on difference in sound. Every component on a circuit board can affect the sound depending on the quality, quantity and placement. Many vibrate and produce electro magnetic fields which affect adjacent components and the analog and “yes” digital circuits. A 1 is a square wave and the quality of the square wave matters. So if these components see more traffic they produce more interference. Roon is a heavy traffic program as compared to others that start / stop stream only. Roon is constantly checking the end device so all circuits are more heavily utilized thus the difference in sound.

The details of this circuit board interference is for the scientists but those like Rob Watts know how to minimize it. My take.


----------



## adrianm

Also tested some A Charlin BNC's with the M-scaler on Battery, made no difference to my ears, but the Moon Mind 2 streamer definitely sounds much better than my Pc running Audirvana. Not sure if there's anything else in this price range i should be auditioning. I would rather have this than the 2go/2yu, not sure about Lumin U1 mini , or other alternatives that might use optical, I'm definitely sticking to it over everything else.


----------



## muski

alxw0w said:


> Some things about audio are really strange. Some time ago i switched from roon to lms. As the sq of lms was a bit better to me.
> Unfortunately I really missed roon music discovery and whole user experience. In fact i was listening less because of that. I didn't discover much new music since then.
> So lately i switched back to roon.
> Still it's mind boggling why on earth different softwares sound different. I'm using same hardware, just different programs on my PC and raspberry transport.


I'm having exactly the same experience and find myself flipping between Roon for discovery, Qobuz for playlist building and LMS for critical listening.  I've also briefly experimented with Roon->Squeezebox emulation and Roon->HQPlayer passthrough->NAA. It was a bit overwhelming but somehow LMS still came out on top. Nonetheless, it's stunning to me that LMS & Roon can sound so noticeably different from exactly the same file/stream.

I use a SonicTransporter and a Sonore opticalRendu that allow for instant switching between these solutions. In fact, the SonicTransporter runs both LMS & Roon server simultaneously.


----------



## adrianm

Just upgraded from an Isotek Sirius to an Aquarius. Oh my god. This is the biggest change i've heard since adding the M-scaler to Dave. Bigger than adding a  streamer and 1k power cables. Still in the process of comparing the Moon Mind 2 to the 2go2yu and some Isotek Optimum and Elite power cables.


----------



## DJJEZ

adrianm said:


> Just upgraded from an Isotek Sirius to an Aquarius. Oh my god. This is the biggest change i've heard since adding the M-scaler to Dave. Bigger than adding a  streamer and 1k power cables. Still in the process of comparing the Moon Mind 2 to the 2go2yu and some Isotek Optimum and Elite power cables.


I've been thinking of doing the same


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## adrianm

DJJEZ said:


> I've been thinking of doing the same


My only regret is not going for the Sigmas, but due to a discount situation that i've yet to understand (from a local dealer), they have the  Aquarius on sale,50% off, which made it  4 times cheaper than the Sigmas . I mean , that's less than an Optimum cable, which is kinda ridiculous.
   Still a massive cable and everything skeptic, but Isotek can just take my money at this point, this is why i'm auditioning their Optimum and Elite cables.


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## Sampajanna

I would highly recommend getting off that train. I was on the same train. The biggest cable difference I ever noticed was power cable for Dave. I then upgraded twice before realizing that if a cable was making this much of a difference, a power supply would be even greater and just ordered a DC4. Save your money and get a DC4. It is whatever you experienced with cables X orders of magnitude...


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## griff500

Sampajanna said:


> I would highly recommend getting off that train. I was on the same train. The biggest cable difference I ever noticed was power cable for Dave. I then upgraded twice before realizing that if a cable was making this much of a difference, a power supply would be even greater and just ordered a DC4. Save your money and get a DC4. It is whatever you experienced with cables X orders of magnitude...


I also found that the DAVE responded well to a decent power cable, so a DC4 would be the next upgrade, although it looks like that is about to be surpassed by an updated version...


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## Sampajanna (Aug 17, 2021)

Second biggest cable upgrade for me was Wave Storm tied with omega USB. These cables aren’t subtle at all. Omega is epic! Replaced my FTA Callisto, which I’m selling btw. It stood me well for a year, but omega blows it away… Recently added the Network Acoustics AG box which was also a nice SQ bump!


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## Triode User

griff500 said:


> I also found that the DAVE responded well to a decent power cable, so a DC4 would be the next upgrade, although it looks like that is about to be surpassed by an updated version...


Indeed and I have the DC4 here side by side with the ARC6 prototype upgrade version that I have been asked to see what I think. The DC4 still makes the Dave so good but I can’t deny that the ARC6 is even better.


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## griff500

Triode User said:


> Indeed and I have the DC4 here side by side with the ARC6 prototype upgrade version that I have been asked to see what I think. The DC4 still makes the Dave so good but I can’t deny that the ARC6 is even better.


I do hope it is called that because it has a miniaturised ARC Reactor in it...   

Avengers assemble... to have a coffee and listen to Qobuz...


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## adrianm (Aug 17, 2021)

Sampajanna said:


> I would highly recommend getting off that train. I was on the same train. The biggest cable difference I ever noticed was power cable for Dave. I then upgraded twice before realizing that if a cable was making this much of a difference, a power supply would be even greater and just ordered a DC4. Save your money and get a DC4. It is whatever you experienced with cables X orders of magnitude...


Well i've auditioned the Optimum vs Elite Vs an "artisanal" cable which topped them both. But yes, the cost for the improvement vs my cheap Isotek premier cable is laughable. I'm sticking with what i have. But the Isotek Aquarius is a bigger improvement than even the streamers i've auditioned (to that point, i've found the 2go2yu dissapointing to say the least, worse than my pc running Audirvana Studio, Moon Mind 2 is so much better).
   I'm curious though if this PSU upgrade makes sense in the context of good mains filtration. Because this is the kind of huge change you guys are talking about and it seems like the areas overlap.


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## adrianm

Well the crazies win, the streamer sounds better than the pc via optical, but the difference increases when switching to a supposedly quality coaxial cable (around 600 euros). 
   Does anyone have any coaxial cable recommendations to use between the streamer (Moon Mind 2) and M-scaler?


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> Well the crazies win, the streamer sounds better than the pc via optical, but the difference increases when switching to a supposedly quality coaxial cable (around 600 euros).
> Does anyone have any coaxial cable recommendations to use between the streamer (Moon Mind 2) and M-scaler?


I’ve been using Nordost Silver Shadow with excellent results. Granted it’s a rather old design as far as digital is concerned but it cost practically nothing comparatively speaking. There are better cables out there but I didn’t feel like spending more at the time.


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## DJJEZ

Triode User said:


> Indeed and I have the DC4 here side by side with the ARC6 prototype upgrade version that I have been asked to see what I think. The DC4 still makes the Dave so good but I can’t deny that the ARC6 is even better.


interested in the ARC6 pricing. im holding out from buying the DC4 currently cause of the ARC6


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## EuropeanEar

Sampajanna said:


> The biggest cable difference I ever noticed was power cable for Dave.


+1 to that.  I’m using a Shunyata Omega QR-s power cord with the Dave.  The improvement is definitely audible and not subtle.


----------



## griff500

DJJEZ said:


> interested in the ARC6 pricing. im holding out from buying the DC4 currently cause of the ARC6


I'm very interested in this as well but I have a feeling it's going to be more than I am comfortable paying at the present time. Watching with interest though!


----------



## DJJEZ

griff500 said:


> I'm very interested in this as well but I have a feeling it's going to be more than I am comfortable paying at the present time. Watching with interest though!


Yeh same. If the price is insane compared to the DC4 will just go for the DC4!


----------



## Ciggavelli

DJJEZ said:


> Yeh same. If the price is insane compared to the DC4 will just go for the DC4!


My DAVE DC4 comes this week. Part of me wishes I would have known about the Arc6 before I ordered the DC4. But, apparently you can send the psu back and they can update the DC4 for a price. I may do that. I also have my m-scaler DC4 coming in a couple of weeks. I’m super excited to hear what these psus can do


----------



## DJJEZ

Ciggavelli said:


> My DAVE DC4 comes this week. Part of me wishes I would have known about the Arc6 before I ordered the DC4. But, apparently you can send the psu back and they can update the DC4 for a price. I may do that. I also have my m-scaler DC4 coming in a couple of weeks. I’m super excited to hear what these psus can do


I've also read that you will be able to send in the DC4 to be upgraded which is amazing so at least you will have an upgrade path 😁


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## audio_1

adrianm said:


> Well the crazies win, the streamer sounds better than the pc via optical, but the difference increases when switching to a supposedly quality coaxial cable (around 600 euros).
> Does anyone have any coaxial cable recommendations to use between the streamer (Moon Mind 2) and M-scaler?


Have you tried moving them apart, and using a long optical cable? Separate digital and analogue power supplies from your consumer unit? Cables spaced far apart? I have my Intel Nuc running Roon rock setup like this ( Opto DX with 3m optical cables from Blu2 to Dave) and can't see how it could get any better. Love to try a DC4 ARC6 and K50 though.


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## Triode User

DJJEZ said:


> I've also read that you will be able to send in the DC4 to be upgraded which is amazing so at least you will have an upgrade path 😁


Yes, and I understand this will possibly only cost the same as the difference in price between the DC4 and ARC6. However the Dc4 still sounds great and I would hope that Sean will continue to offer it alongside the ARC6 because it is cheaper and that may be a factor in deciding which to go for.


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## adrianm

DJJEZ said:


> Yeh same. If the price is insane compared to the DC4 will just go for the DC4!


As if the DC4 pricing isn't insane.


----------



## adrianm

audio_1 said:


> Have you tried moving them apart, and using a long optical cable? Separate digital and analogue power supplies from your consumer unit? Cables spaced far apart? I have my Intel Nuc running Roon rock setup like this ( Opto DX with 3m optical cables from Blu2 to Dave) and can't see how it could get any better. Love to try a DC4 ARC6 and K50 though.



I did, tested for 3 straight days, using a Qed Optical reference, which in all honesty sounds identical to the stock Dave optical cable. I've passed " i can't see how it can get better " about 4 times since i got Dave. In the following order :
  M-scaler, adding a battery to it  ,upgrading my Sirius to an Isotek Aquarius a few days ago, and adding the Mind2 streamer ). And i mean better, not just different like 1k power cables compared to my 150 euro one.
  The Mind 2 sounds a bit better than my pc via optical, but it feels like it caps out. Coax  sounds noticeably better.  Granted, that was with an expensive cable (still not 100% sure it matters), but i can say i wouldn't buy it for the SQ out of the Optical.


----------



## audio_1

adrianm said:


> I did, tested for 3 straight days, using a Qed Optical reference, which in all honesty sounds identical to the stock Dave optical cable. I've passed " i can't see how it can get better " about 4 times since i got Dave. In the following order :
> M-scaler, adding a battery to it  ,upgrading my Sirius to an Isotek Aquarius a few days ago, and adding the Mind2 streamer ). And i mean better, not just different like 1k power cables compared to my 150 euro one.
> The Mind 2 sounds a bit better than my pc via optical, but it feels like it caps out. Coax  sounds noticeably better.  Granted, that was with an expensive cable (still not 100% sure it matters), but i can say i wouldn't buy it for the SQ out of the Optical.


The Dave and Blu2 were my starting point. It has taken some tweaking to where "I wonder if it can get any better"
Upgrades from the beginning:
1. Oyaide BD510 BNC cables with clip on ferrites.
2. Opto-DX with 3 m optical cables running on Batteries, removed clip on ferrites.
3. Farad Super 3 for Opto-Dx
4. 2 additional Oyaide DB510 BNC cables for Opto DX T
5. Intel Nuc running Roon Rock
6. Melco S100 switch with duplex single mode fibre to router. Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFP Optic Transceivers
7. Fiber Optic cable, Melco S100 to Ubiquiti edge router. CORNING part # 040402G5Z20020M, LC Duplex to LC Duplex Patch cord, 2 fibres, LSZH, 2.0 mm legs, SMF-28® Ultra OS2, 20 m
8. Ferrum Hypos power supply for Intel Nuc.
9. Intona 7055B with full galvanic isolation and no capacitive coupling for Intel Nuc
10. Separate analogue and digital power cables to consumer unit.
11. DFS  2 040-2/0/0.03-F RCD, Gigawatt G-16A MCB x 2 digital and analogue
12. Audioquest Niagara 7000 power conditioner for power amps and Dave and Opto-DX R
13. Audioquest Hurricane power cords
14. Original RSA Dmitri used to power Blu 2, digital source components and Opto-DX T
15. Upgrade premium single mode fibre optic cables for Opto-DX.
17. Distance (free upgrade!) My power amps, Dave and loudspeakers are at the front of my listening room. The Blu2 and digital source components are about 4 metres away along the side wall. The main advantage of the Opto-DX imho! Only the Dave, Opto-Dx R, power amps and Niagara 7000 are placed between the loudspeakers.
18. Investigating silver foil analogue RCA interconnects, Just ordered Blackcat SilverStar 88 Flatwave RCA Interconnects
19. Foil speaker cables ??
20. 6m tap M-Scaler ??

Note upgrades are not in chronological order.


----------



## adrianm

audio_1 said:


> The Dave and Blu2 were my starting point. It has taken some tweaking to where "I wonder if it can get any better"
> Upgrades from the beginning:
> 1. Oyaide BD510 BNC cables with clip on ferrites.
> 2. Opto-DX with 3 m optical cables running on Batteries, removed clip on ferrites.
> ...


Wow, the very thought of Opto dx made me almost get a Bartok, i still might before i reach that point


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## audio_1 (Aug 18, 2021)

adrianm said:


> Wow, the very thought of Opto dx made me almost get a Bartok, i still might before i reach that point


The only thing is an optimised Dave and M-Scaler are state of the art. A Bartok is far from state of the art. There would be no point tweaking one as the designed is flawed in the first place imho. Most of the tweaks listed above are of benefit to any high end hi-fi system and are not required for the opto-dx. The opto-dx is the only way to 100% isolate the Dave an M-Scaler electrically as far as I know.


----------



## adrianm

audio_1 said:


> The only thing is an optimised Dave and M-Scaler are state of the art. A Bartok is far from state of the art. There would be no point tweaking one as the designed is flawed in the first place imho. Most of the tweaks listed above are of benefit to any high end hi-fi system and are not required for the opto-dx. The opto-dx is the only way to 100% isolate the Dave an M-Scaler electrically as far as I know.


  A lot of people seem to agree with that statement  I'm very happy with my battery  and have heard no difference between the stock, obviously bad bncs and some A Charlin 600 euro a piece ones since i've added it. I did hear a difference before when comparing the stock ones to some CrystalDigit Standard Diamond cables. So either the battery helps or the extra 300 euro a piece  . I'd still be curious to hear the Waves at one point though.
​


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## Gadget67 (Aug 18, 2021)

deleted.. wrong forum!


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## adrianm

Gadget67 said:


> deleted.. wrong forum!


It's ok, we'll be here, still waiting for you to join us...


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## littlej0e (Aug 18, 2021)

Rob Watts said:


> Sorry but you are incorrect. The output from the volume control is simply not truncated - nor is it dithered - but aggressively noise shaped, so that the signals within the audio bandwidth are perfectly preserved. By perfectly, I mean it will reproduce a -301dB signal to an accuracy better than +/-0.001 dB and with a phase shift of within +/- 0.001 degrees; this level of accuracy is essential in order to maintain the perception of depth and detail resolution. To illustrate the power of this noise shaper look at the 16FS output of the M scaler's truncator to 24 bits:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok...now what the does this even mean? Phrases like "subjectively transparent" and "subjectively lossless" are sending my bull-$hit-o-meter through the frickin' roof. Something is either fully transparent or it isn't. Fully lossless or it isn't. There is literally no grey area in those statements. So is the Dave DSP fully transparent and lossless or not?


I have absolutely no problem with you or Chord products, sir (quite the opposite, I'm actually a bit jealous I don't have a Dave...especially with the SJ power supplies ). I'm also not trying to put you on blast, search for any seemingly unpolished corner of impropriety to cast doubt on your very fine products as there is no doubt your DSP solution is both extremely clever and incredibly useful. I'm just after the truth because the statements above sound like very carefully phrased slight-of-hand marketing speak. Like an infomercial trying to sell me a rotisserie chicken machine, by using phrases like "virtually no cleanup".

Again, I can't stand people that mindlessly argue not to be wrong instead of searching for the absolute truth and that's sincerely all I am after here. I don't want to piss anyone off, hurt anyone's feelings, business, or opinions. I'm just looking for the simple truth.


----------



## ra990

littlej0e said:


> ...Something is either fully transparent or it isn't. Fully lossless or it isn't.


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## littlej0e (Aug 19, 2021)

ra990 said:


>


----------



## Rob Watts

audio_1 said:


> The only thing is an optimised Dave and M-Scaler are state of the art. A Bartok is far from state of the art. There would be no point tweaking one as the designed is flawed in the first place imho. Most of the tweaks listed above are of benefit to any high end hi-fi system and are not required for the opto-dx. The opto-dx is the only way to 100% isolate the Dave an M-Scaler electrically as far as I know.



Opto-DX will only isolate completely if both sides of the Opto-DX are battery powered - otherwise you would get RF leakage via the mains. But if you are going to the trouble of installing batteries you may as well do it on the M scaler - then you would get 100% isolation too.



littlej0e said:


> Ok...now what the does this even mean? Phrases like "subjectively transparent" and "subjectively lossless" are sending my bull-$hit-o-meter through the frickin' roof. Something is either fully transparent or it isn't. Fully lossless or it isn't. There is literally no grey area in those statements. So is the Dave DSP fully transparent and lossless or not?
> 
> 
> I have absolutely no problem with you or Chord products, sir (quite the opposite, I'm actually a bit jealous I don't have a Dave...especially with the SJ power supplies ). I'm also not trying to put you on blast, search for any seemingly unpolished corner of impropriety to cast doubt on your very fine products as there is no doubt your DSP solution is both extremely clever and incredibly useful. I'm just after the truth because the statements above sound like very carefully phrased slight-of-hand marketing speak. Like an infomercial trying to sell me a rotisserie chicken machine, by using phrases like "virtually no cleanup".
> ...



I can see why you could say that your BS meter is going through the roof - but when I post I try to be as accurate from a technical sense as possible. You can't have a volume control that is bit perfect, as it obviously changes the data; you could call it lossless if you maintained accuracy - so 24b times 24b volume coefficient would give a 48b result that would be mathematically 100% accurate. But internally within a DAC if you kept that up the bit depth would rapidly cascade out of control. All the subjective evidence I have to date indicates that my tuncation noise-shapers are lossless from a sound quality POV; but if I were to call it absolutely lossless than that would be technically inaccurate, and posters would rightly post that I was being economical with the truth, and then turning it into marketing speak (which I despise and hate - so much damage is done in this industry by marketing BS). 

Note that I did say "All the subjective evidence I have to date indicates..." and curiously one of the research programs I have in progress is proving that statement directly - what level of noise shaped truncation is possible after which it no longer becomes subjectively transparent - is a question I am looking into currently.

We are all looking for the absolute truth, but unfortunately that truth is rarely simple.  My job in posting is difficult as I have to be 100% accurate, but at the same time trying to explain things simply...


----------



## littlej0e (Aug 19, 2021)

Rob Watts said:


> Opto-DX will only isolate completely if both sides of the Opto-DX are battery powered - otherwise you would get RF leakage via the mains. But if you are going to the trouble of installing batteries you may as well do it on the M scaler - then you would get 100% isolation too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rob,

Thanks so much for taking the time to explain. I truly appreciate it. Even more than that, I now fully appreciate the extremely precarious and delicate situation you are in posting on a public forum and I never fully considered that when I asked my question. Sorry if I put you on the spot or in an uncomfortable situation and thanks again for answering. Your response makes perfect sense.

Lastly, congratulations on designing and building a fantastic DAC and DSP control. Even though it isn’t bit perfect, it should still functionality offset the increase/decrease in resolution, which is pretty damn amazing in of itself. I suspect your competitors will try to rip this off with a quickness. if they haven’t already done so.

Best wishes


----------



## burbster

audio_1 said:


> The Dave and Blu2 were my starting point. It has taken some tweaking to where "I wonder if it can get any better"
> Upgrades from the beginning:
> 1. Oyaide BD510 BNC cables with clip on ferrites.
> 2. Opto-DX with 3 m optical cables running on Batteries, removed clip on ferrites.
> ...


Hi, Out of interest, did you ever try running the whole system off the audioquest 7000? Appreciate you have separate analogue and digital feeds from consumer unit, but I thought the 7000 had isolation transformers built into every source socket? (I may be wrong) but that gives you a good degree of electrical isolation (more than a separate circuit on the same consumer unit would) that way you get the isolation plus all the other benefits of the cleaned supply that AQ brings? I am trying to figure out if its worth running a further separate 'digital' circuit in myself, so curious to know your thoughts.


----------



## audio_1

burbster said:


> Hi, Out of interest, did you ever try running the whole system off the audioquest 7000? Appreciate you have separate analogue and digital feeds from consumer unit, but I thought the 7000 had isolation transformers built into every source socket? (I may be wrong) but that gives you a good degree of electrical isolation (more than a separate circuit on the same consumer unit would) that way you get the isolation plus all the other benefits of the cleaned supply that AQ brings? I am trying to figure out if its worth running a further separate 'digital' circuit in myself, so curious to know your thoughts.


No. I wanted to isolate the Blu2, Opto-DX T, and digital source power supplies from the power amps and Dave as much as possible. I would also require very long power cords as my digital and analogue components are 4 metres apart. I already had the RSA Dimitri so always intended using it for the digital components.

I take advantage of the isolation transformers in the Niagara 7000 by having the power amps supplied from the high current power corrected sockets. The Opto-Dx R from one isolation transformer and the Dave from the other.

I hope that my system's power supply, reduces RF leakage via the mains as much as possible. (Niagara isolation transformer, 40 metres of power cable, 2 x power conditioners, multiple power cords and 2 x miniature circuit breakers.) The digital and analogue power cables from the consumer unit to my listening room are also spaced as far apart as possible in the attic for most of their length.


----------



## burbster

audio_1 said:


> No. I wanted to isolate the Blu2, Opto-DX T, and digital source power supplies from the power amps and Dave as much as possible. I would also require very long power cords as my digital and analogue components are 4 metres apart. I already had the RSA Dimitri so always intended using it for the digital components.
> 
> I take advantage of the isolation transformers in the Niagara 7000 by having the power amps supplied from the high current power corrected sockets. The Opto-Dx R from one isolation transformer and the Dave from the other.
> 
> I hope that my system's power supply, reduces RF leakage via the mains as much as possible. (Niagara isolation transformer, 40 metres of power cable, 2 x power conditioners, multiple power cords and 2 x miniature circuit breakers.) The digital and analogue power cables from the consumer unit to my listening room are also spaced as far apart as possible in the attic for most of their length.


Thanks, you have certainly gone to great lengths to minimise any possible interaction between the circuits! For some time now I have had a dedicated audio ring main, but recently, through total lock down boredom, I went a step further and installed a dedicated consumer unit, fed directly from incomIng supply block, along with some modified internal wiring in said consumer unit and finally a screened 6mm cable to the socket. Sad I know!


----------



## Triode User

burbster said:


> Thanks, you have certainly gone to great lengths to minimise any possible interaction between the circuits! For some time now I have had a dedicated audio ring main, but recently, through total lock down boredom, I went a step further and installed a dedicated consumer unit, fed directly from incomIng supply block, along with some modified internal wiring in said consumer unit and finally a screened 6mm cable to the socket. Sad I know!


My friend did similar to you. Unfortunately with my friends system I was able to demonstrate that his dedicated consumer fed directly from his incoming supply provided no RF isolation at all. A good test is to plug a mains wifi extender into one circuit and then plug another into the dedicated audio ring main fed from the separate consumer unit. The chances are they they will communicate quite happily via RF over the mains circuits.


----------



## audio_1 (Aug 19, 2021)

Triode User said:


> My friend did similar to you. Unfortunately with my friends system I was able to demonstrate that his dedicated consumer fed directly from his incoming supply provided no RF isolation at all. A good test is to plug a mains wifi extender into one circuit and then plug another into the dedicated audio ring main fed from the separate consumer unit. The chances are they they will communicate quite happily via RF over the mains circuits.


Hopefully the Blu 2 isn't feeding as much RF into the mains as a WiFi extender! I assume the RF leakage frequency is higher than a WiFi power line extender carrier frequency so will attenuate more. 40 metres of power cable, power cords and 2 power conditioners must reduce RF leakage a bit. Good test though. I will try it to see. I will borrow a WiFi power line extender kit and check. I don't see any other solution working for me. Batteries are unreliable and too much hassle. 
This would also be a good test for the Niagara 7000 isolation transformers. I will test it between isolated outputs too.


----------



## Rob Watts

littlej0e said:


> Rob,
> 
> Thanks so much for taking the time to explain. I truly appreciate it. Even more than that, I now fully appreciate the extremely precarious and delicate situation you are in posting on a public forum and I never fully considered that when I asked my question. Sorry if I put you on the spot or in an uncomfortable situation and thanks again for answering. Your response makes perfect sense.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your kind comments, and no you didn't put me on the spot - I am always happy to clarify, and never worried at all about being challenged on technical aspects.


----------



## burbster

Triode User said:


> My friend did similar to you. Unfortunately with my friends system I was able to demonstrate that his dedicated consumer fed directly from his incoming supply provided no RF isolation at all. A good test is to plug a mains wifi extender into one circuit and then plug another into the dedicated audio ring main fed from the separate consumer unit. The chances are they they will communicate quite happily via RF over the mains circuits.


So you are basically saying all my efforts were a complete waste of time!!! Thanks! 

But yes I think you are probably right, I suspect they will work, but as Audio_1 states, I would also hope that the signal would be somewhat attenuated, if not what would be stopping your next door but two neighbor using a similar device to connect to ones in your house? (I say next door but 2, as that property should be on the same phase, but not always)
From my own experience the type of earthing arrangement you use on the dedicated circuit has more effect on RF attenuation. But that becomes quiet controversial as we can stray into non compliant installation's (BS7671) if we are not careful.


----------



## OrenT (Aug 20, 2021)

Hi all, would appreciate your wisdom & experience.
Looking to upgrade from TT2 to Dave and came across this site:
http://diyhifiaudiophile.com/home/4...eadphone-amp.html?search_query=dave&results=3

Can this price possibly be legit or am I naive for even asking? Anyone from @ChordElectronics here?

Haven't found anything negative about them online, but when Googling their address, about 5 "fishy" (porn, anima) sites come up.
Also, I have contacted them and received professionally written replies (specifying total with shipping and insurance to my country), again, with their website and address in the signature. 

Love to hear your thoughts. Thanks!


----------



## genefruit

OrenT said:


> Hi all, would appreciate your wisdom & experience.
> Looking to upgrade from TT2 to Dave and came across this site:
> http://diyhifiaudiophile.com/home/4...eadphone-amp.html?search_query=dave&results=3
> 
> ...


Based on the prices for other items, I find it difficult to believe they’re legitimate. I don’t know their end game but I am skeptical that an order placed would result in the item being delivered. On the other hand, what do you have to lose?


----------



## OrenT

Not much, only about $6000


----------



## genefruit

OrenT said:


> Not much, only about $6000


You’d pay with a credit card, right?  Fraud would result in you getting your money back.


----------



## genefruit (Aug 20, 2021)

genefruit said:


> You’d pay with a credit card, right?  Fraud would result in you getting your money back.


I'll go back to I have little confidence you'd get a product.  The social media links jump to the e-commerce tools social media and not this seller.  Google street view the company's address.


----------



## mammal

OrenT said:


> Not much, only about $6000


Pay with Paypal and video record opening of the box (if anything arrives).


----------



## DJJEZ

OrenT said:


> Hi all, would appreciate your wisdom & experience.
> Looking to upgrade from TT2 to Dave and came across this site:
> http://diyhifiaudiophile.com/home/4...eadphone-amp.html?search_query=dave&results=3
> 
> ...


If it looks to good to be true it probably is. A dave at 50% off brand new just doesn't happen so tread carefully.


----------



## tommir

DJJEZ said:


> If it looks to good to be true it probably is. A dave at 50% off brand new just doesn't happen so tread carefully.


I think the same way. Just bought used Dave, paid much more and still think it was a good price


----------



## alxw0w

Yes, it seems like a total fake.


----------



## JamieMcC

Probably easy to find out they advertise some hi end gear I would imagine it would be easy enough  to contact the likes of McIntosh Chord etc and see if they are a authorized dealers or not I suspect they would be in their interest  to act if not a legitimate outlet as it's not in all their distributors interest.


----------



## OrenT

Yes, i contacted the country's official  distributor and he's not familiar with them.


----------



## jlbrach

OrenT said:


> Hi all, would appreciate your wisdom & experience.
> Looking to upgrade from TT2 to Dave and came across this site:
> http://diyhifiaudiophile.com/home/4...eadphone-amp.html?search_query=dave&results=3
> 
> ...


I would be extremely skeptical that is below used price for a well kept unit


----------



## Ciggavelli

My DC4 arrived today.  I just finished installing it.  First impressions are WOW!  The background is blacker than I've ever heard before.  The bass is substantially more impactful.  The soundstage has grown in all directions.  The details in songs are easier to pick out.  The separation is amazing.  

And, this is only my first listen, and apparently  the DC4 takes a long, long time to break in.  But, I am very happy with it right now.  My DC4 for the M-scaler comes in a couple of weeks too, so I can't wait to hear it in my setup.

The DC4 is definitely worth it in my mind.  I should have gotten it sooner.  It transforms the DAVE.  It sounds like a new DAC


----------



## sm60

VladYR said:


> I tried the Z1R with the Dave for a few hours and wasn’t thrilled. It sounded a bit fatiguing and closed in. This wasn’t a problem on TA-ZH1ES with the same cables. The stock cable could be better. I had a Nordost Heimdall 2 cable for them, which sounded great with the Sony amp. Strangely, Sony MDR-Z7 sounds better with the stock cable than the Z1R with the upgraded cable. I suspect it’s tied to the difference in the level of isolation. Z7 has less of it.
> 
> In a few days I’m going to demo a power switch from Ansuz. According to a few reviews it seems to make quite a bit of difference with streaming based systems. Next week I’m picking up a few servers to test out with the Linn to see which one pairs better and offers a better sound signature. This hobby is hell on one’s bank account 😂🤣😄


I find my Dave completely underwhelming as a headphone amplifier. There are far better options at much lower prices.


----------



## sm60

Ciggavelli said:


> My DC4 arrived today.  I just finished installing it.  First impressions are WOW!  The background is blacker than I've ever heard before.  The bass is substantially more impactful.  The soundstage has grown in all directions.  The details in songs are easier to pick out.  The separation is amazing.
> 
> And, this is only my first listen, and apparently  the DC4 takes a long, long time to break in.  But, I am very happy with it right now.  My DC4 for the M-scaler comes in a couple of weeks too, so I can't wait to hear it in my setup.
> 
> The DC4 is definitely worth it in my mind.  I should have gotten it sooner.  It transforms the DAVE.  It sounds like a new DAC


Hmm.. how about a meta DC4 for the DC4? I recall years ago in older issues of TAS where reviewers would get qualified electricians to completely redo the house electrical system and put the whole audio system on a separate 30 amp subsystem. It turns out to be surprisingly cheap to do this, probably far less them what a pair of DC4s cost.

Alternatively one could rig up a battery powered supply for the Dave and totally isolate it from the electrical supply. Battery powered amplifiers are supposed to sound quite different. I’m waiting for the first completely solar powered audio system! 😀


----------



## Ciggavelli (Aug 21, 2021)

Here's a pic showing how large the DC4 is in comparison to my other equipment

I feel like I am close to getting to my end-game.  Maybe 
(Yes, I definitely need a new rack )


----------



## EuropeanEar

OrenT said:


> Looking to upgrade from TT2 to Dave and came across this site:
> http://diyhifiaudiophile.com/home/4...eadphone-amp.html?search_query=dave&results=3
> 
> Can this price possibly be legit or am I naive for even asking?



The price is ridiculously low
The site is hosted on a server in Indonesia
It is not even on https
When you click the “Add to cart” button, the sytem automatically adds $315 shipping cost.  How would they know where to ship?

It stinks if you ask me.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

OrenT said:


> Hi all, would appreciate your wisdom & experience.
> Looking to upgrade from TT2 to Dave and came across this site:
> http://diyhifiaudiophile.com/home/4...eadphone-amp.html?search_query=dave&results=3
> 
> ...



I just noticed that they located in my country. Never heard about this store, let me check to the chord distributor here.


----------



## mammal

TheMiddleSky said:


> I just noticed that they located in my country. Never heard about this store, let me check to the chord distributor here.


I registered and went through the shopping flow and they only sell to USA? Weird, why not USA plus local market at least?


----------



## TheMiddleSky

mammal said:


> I registered and went through the shopping flow and they only sell to USA? Weird, why not USA plus local market at least?


Definitely weird and fishy, their new unit of Audeze flagships are 50% off as well.


----------



## ra990

This site is likely fake. I had a family member fall for one of these. If you go through with your order, they'll send you something totally useless (like seeds in a packet) just to show that they sent something to you via the tracking number. Then you spend months with your payment method trying to recover your money. Just beware.


----------



## thecrow

mammal said:


> I registered and went through the shopping flow and they only sell to USA? Weird, why not USA plus local market at least?


And their site says they are in jakarta.

no one should be wasting time on this.

anyway i have just come across a big inheritance but i need someone’s help to access the funds. I am happy to make it worth your while and we can both make some good money. Why not message me and i can help you out if you help me out.

(seriously, don’t pm me) 

enough said


----------



## mammal

thecrow said:


> anyway i have just come across a big inheritance but i need someone’s help to access the funds. I am happy to make it worth your while and we can both make some good money. Why not message me and i can help you out if you help me out.


The sad truth is that one day people WILL genuinely be writing this, without trying to scam you. Imagine your grandchildren saying "my grandpa died and forgot to write down his password from his BTC wallet, need a security expert to crack it"


----------



## thecrow (Aug 22, 2021)

mammal said:


> The sad truth is that one day people WILL genuinely be writing this, without trying to scam you. Imagine your grandchildren saying "my grandpa died and forgot to write down his password from his BTC wallet, need a security expert to crack it"


Or it’s in his iphone and I can’t unlock it - even if i open his eyelids to activate the face recognition.

Dear Mr Tim Cook,
please help

Ps let’s help grandpa keeps the password as  password1234 and his phone lock as 1234
(After we set up the iPad for him for FaceTime calls with him due to Covid lockdowns)


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

Ciggavelli said:


> Here's a pic showing how large the DC4 is in comparison to my other equipment
> 
> I feel like I am close to getting to my end-game.  Maybe
> (Yes, I definitely need a new rack )


You just need a Hifiman EF1000 now for your Susvara's !


----------



## MarkusBarkus

ra990 said:


> This site is likely fake.


Many years ago "we" had a dealer (not audio products) whose website was scraped and recreated, including an ecomm workflow. 

You had to look carefully to see the URLs and redirects. They too offered products at crazy prices. 

If they offered pricing at closer-to-reality pricing, you would think the scam would be more successful, but that is not the customer they are targeting.

They don't even need to send you a packet of seeds, they just want your info to sell. That is likely their actual product.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

OrenT said:


> Hi all, would appreciate your wisdom & experience.
> Looking to upgrade from TT2 to Dave and came across this site:
> http://diyhifiaudiophile.com/home/4...eadphone-amp.html?search_query=dave&results=3
> 
> ...


Official distributor Chord Indonesia confirmed this one most probably a scam. At least for all Chord products are not from them as they never supply to this store.


----------



## jlbrach

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> You just need a Hifiman EF1000 now for your Susvara's !


come on now, you know there is no such thing as end game....only until the next new thing comes along


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

jlbrach said:


> come on now, you know there is no such thing as end game....only until the next new thing comes along


And or you have run out of money !


----------



## jlbrach

yes there is always that


----------



## VladYR

sm60 said:


> I find my Dave completely underwhelming as a headphone amplifier. There are far better options at much lower prices.


It works quite well with Meze Empyrean and that’s all that really matters to me at the moment. I’m not really looking to drive super power hungry headphones with it.


----------



## jlbrach

there are certainly better options as a stand alone amp but few if any as a dac/amp combo..other than a handful of hard to drive HP's the dave will drive most HP's quite well


----------



## sm60

jlbrach said:


> there are certainly better options as a stand alone amp but few if any as a dac/amp combo..other than a handful of hard to drive HP's the dave will drive most HP's quite well


Sure, a Swiss Army knife can serve many purposes, and save you from carrying a bag of tools, but no serious handyman would earn his keep primarily with a Swiss Army knife. If you’re strapped for space or cash or want to use Dave on the road, I can see some logic for using it as a headphone amp or preamp. But if you’ve heard what a great headphone preamp or regular solid state or tube preamp can do, and in my experience, they blow the Dave out of the water, then it gets harder to live with the compromises built into Swiss Army knife solution.


----------



## VladYR

sm60 said:


> Sure, a Swiss Army knife can serve many purposes, and save you from carrying a bag of tools, but no serious handyman would earn his keep primarily with a Swiss Army knife. If you’re strapped for space or cash or want to use Dave on the road, I can see some logic for using it as a headphone amp or preamp. But if you’ve heard what a great headphone preamp or regular solid state or tube preamp can do, and in my experience, they blow the Dave out of the water, then it gets harder to live with the compromises built into Swiss Army knife solution.


I’m always willing to consider alternatives. Can you name a few just to get an idea of the direction you’re going with this?


----------



## Slim1970

jlbrach said:


> there are certainly better options as a stand alone amp but few if any as a dac/amp combo..other than a handful of hard to drive HP's the dave will drive most HP's quite well


Agreed, the Dave's headphone output is one of the best singled ended output I've heard for easy to drive headphones.


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> It works quite well with Meze Empyrean and that’s all that really matters to me at the moment. I’m not really looking to drive super power hungry headphones with it.


Same with my Z1R


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> Same with my Z1R


I noticed you added that streamer into your signature. Did you decide to keep it? I did some testing with the devices I mentioned earlier. It was difficult to tell whether the Ansuz power switch did anything significant with the streaming side of things. I might try the Innuos variant at some point. It’s a bit smaller and pricier. There wasn’t much luck with testing out the Innuos server. I got one with the previous OS and when I tried updating it, the device basically got bricked. Hopefully tech support has a way to solve the problem some time this week so I can actually get a sense if this is a good fit for my system before I drop it off on Saturday. Naim Uniti Core was easy to integrate with the Selekt as a source but it worked terribly as a NAS like device. Maybe it’s due to the fact that it had an old fashioned HDD instead of an SSD but the Linn app kept refreshing like mad. There was no way to scroll through nearly 1000 albums. It might work better with a BNC connection but I’m not too sure that the streamer can accept and output this way at the same time. I might just use my router and an SSD as a source. It certainly works without a flaw and doesn’t cost me any additional money.


----------



## OrenT (Aug 23, 2021)

MarkusBarkus said:


> Many years ago "we" had a dealer (not audio products) whose website was scraped and recreated, including an ecomm workflow.
> 
> You had to look carefully to see the URLs and redirects. They too offered products at crazy prices.
> 
> ...


What i find crazy is the amount of effort someone put in to create such a comprehensive website. So many categories. So many products. So professional looking.
Even the email responces are professionaly written.
What if it isn't a scam? Ha! That would be something. But i'm not gonna spend 6k just to find out.


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> I noticed you added that streamer into your signature. Did you decide to keep it? I did some testing with the devices I mentioned earlier. It was difficult to tell whether the Ansuz power switch did anything significant with the streaming side of things. I might try the Innuos variant at some point. It’s a bit smaller and pricier. There wasn’t much luck with testing out the Innuos server. I got one with the previous OS and when I tried updating it, the device basically got bricked. Hopefully tech support has a way to solve the problem some time this week so I can actually get a sense if this is a good fit for my system before I drop it off on Saturday. Naim Uniti Core was easy to integrate with the Selekt as a source but it worked terribly as a NAS like device. Maybe it’s due to the fact that it had an old fashioned HDD instead of an SSD but the Linn app kept refreshing like mad. There was no way to scroll through nearly 1000 albums. It might work better with a BNC connection but I’m not too sure that the streamer can accept and output this way at the same time. I might just use my router and an SSD as a source. It certainly works without a flaw and doesn’t cost me any additional money.


Yes, i've kept it, it adds a lot of extra clarity to the image and a wider soundstage, Coax continues to sound better than Optical by some margin. Added the Isotek Aquarius as well this past week, an even more dramatic upgrade (from Sirius).
    I've also auditioned a Stellia over  the weekend, still find it's not even close to the Z1R.


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> Yes, i've kept it, it adds a lot of extra clarity to the image and a wider soundstage, Coax continues to sound better than Optical by some margin. Added the Isotek Aquarius as well this past week, an even more dramatic upgrade (from Sirius).
> I've also auditioned a Stellia over  the weekend, still find it's not even close to the Z1R.


How would you describe the Stellia with your current chain? Is it worth buying? I’m thinking of getting a better closed back headphones since the only ones I kept are Sony Mdr-z7. They work fine but I want something better than that.


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> How would you describe the Stellia with your current chain? Is it worth buying? I’m thinking of getting a better closed back headphones since the only ones I kept are Sony Mdr-z7. They work fine but I want something better than that.


This is my second time testing it. Impressions remain the same. I feel like the lower midrange is cleaner than the Z1R, due do less emphasized bass. And that's about all that i found better on the Stellia. Or if you like a more neutral sound.
    The image was  smaller (Like Z1R out of a Hugo 2) , not as deep or as wide. Separation was also not as good. Everything was more cluttered. I also didn't like the tonality very much, and it's not because one is "dark" and the other one is "neutral", because i loved the Utopias tonality. It just didn't seem as coherent from my pov. It was also less comfortable and creaked horribly, but it was a showroom headphone.
    I'd definitely give another listen to the Z1R with your current chain, i feel like it's incredibly transparent, every cable change is obvious. But if you do, don't judge it on the stock or Sony Kimber cable, get a pure silver one.
   The only other thing i'd look right now is the Stealth, but it's too early to jump on that train from my pov. Been waiting for metamaterial headphones since Kef announced their speakers.


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> This is my second time testing it. Impressions remain the same. I feel like the lower midrange is cleaner than the Z1R, due do less emphasized bass. And that's about all that i found better on the Stellia. Or if you like a more neutral sound.
> The image was  smaller (Like Z1R out of a Hugo 2) , not as deep or as wide. Separation was also not as good. Everything was more cluttered. I also didn't like the tonality very much, and it's not because one is "dark" and the other one is "neutral", because i loved the Utopias tonality. It just didn't seem as coherent from my pov. It was also less comfortable and creaked horribly, but it was a showroom headphone.
> I'd definitely give another listen to the Z1R with your current chain, i feel like it's incredibly transparent, every cable change is obvious. But if you do, don't judge it on the stock or Sony Kimber cable, get a pure silver one.
> The only other thing i'd look right now is the Stealth, but it's too early to jump on that train from my pov. Been waiting for metamaterial headphones since Kef announced their speakers.


I’ll give it a try some time in September or whenever the dealer gets it from Focal. What I’m looking for is something that’s closed back but doesn’t feel claustrophobic with the Dave. It might take some time to find with all these shipping delays and COVID having quite the comeback here in the states.

Today I had to arrange to ship my Selekt back to Scotland for service. The downside to having exceptional hearing is that I can hear the power supply across the room when the dealer had to be up close. Hopefully that will get sorted out sooner than the projected 4 weeks. In the meantime I have been doing some more testing with the Uniti Core going straight to the M Scaler through BNC. Sound is quite satisfying in contrast to the much more expensive NDX2 that I’ve had before. It would make a nice source for someone without a streamer. I suppose it would likely integrate better into an all Naim ecosystem rather than Linn but that all could change with an SSD being swapped for the old fashioned drive inside.


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> Sound is quite satisfying in contrast to the much more expensive NDX2 that I’ve had before


Didn't like the NDX2 either. Much prefer the Mind 2.


VladYR said:


> What I’m looking for is something that’s closed back but doesn’t feel claustrophobic with the Dave.


Same, tried lcd-4z as well, found it had a narrower soundstage  than Z1R as well, plus i just love the dynamic  driver slam. I haven't found more "air" in a closed back (well semi-open) so far. Why not try the new DCA Stealth? surely you've heard about it already. Or wait for the Abyss closed backs.


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> Didn't like the NDX2 either. Much prefer the Mind 2.
> 
> Same, tried lcd-4z as well, found it had a narrower soundstage  than Z1R as well, plus i just love the dynamic  driver slam. I haven't found more "air" in a closed back (well semi-open) so far. Why not try the new DCA Stealth? surely you've heard about it already. Or wait for the Abyss closed backs.


NDX2 is great if that’s all you’re listening to. There are just a bunch of feature trade offs between it and Selekt or similarly loaded streamers. It’s nice that it has a server feature but it lacks usb b or hdmi arc ports. It’s single ended while the Selekt has both balanced and single ended connections, not to mention room for all sorts of expansions. And then there’s the Naim power supply that’s not exactly silent if its not far from where you’re sleeping 🤣😂. It’s fine across the room but when I don’t run the ac at night after the summer is over I tend to hear every little sound and it just drives me nuts.

‘’I’ve seen the posts about the Stealth. Tempting as it may be, I’m not looking to spend another 4000 on headphones. What I am kind of tempted by is Microsoft Surface Studio. It’s slightly dated tech at this point so I might wait and see if they release a new one any time soon.


----------



## jlbrach

Slim1970 said:


> Agreed, the Dave's headphone output is one of the best singled ended output I've heard for easy to drive headphones.


exactly, if you are listening to a utopia or lcd-4z or the new solitaire p the chord dave amp is pristine...if on the other hand you intend to use a susvara or a abyss TC it aint....


----------



## DJJEZ (Aug 23, 2021)

@Currawong DAVE review is finally up!


----------



## iDesign (Aug 24, 2021)

Currawong seems to have seen the revelation that is the Focal Utopia+Chord DAVE+M Scaler. In my opinion its the best combination of performance at any price. Its just outstanding. I owned a black Schiit Yggdrasil A2 and it wasn't in the same league as the DAVE even when used with top amplifier offerings like the my old Eddie Current Balancing Act, Black Widow 2, or Simaudio MOON 430HAD. Its not worth comparing the two and I think highly of Mike Moffat's work at the $2,449 price point.


----------



## alxw0w (Aug 24, 2021)

DJJEZ said:


> @Currawong DAVE review is finally up!



@Currawong nice review. I really liked the part about black background - Amos made an interesting point.
I remember in the early days black background was desired from the dac - at least from my side.
It was seen as something good - oh dac has black background you cannot hear anything between instruments look how low is the noise floor etc.
But with the Dave that's not the case. There is no black background, you hear so much more like extremely low level details/sounds that background is more like grey - if it makes any sense.


----------



## The Jester

The previous “holy grail” of individual performers ”etched against a black background” against the possible reality of low level harmonics created by individual instruments playing the same note ?


----------



## edwardsean (Aug 24, 2021)

Has anyone had a chance to compare their Dave+HMS/HQP/PGGB (+SJ DC3/DC4) with the Tambaqui?

There is scant firsthand information (Hans Beekhuyzen, AS comparison w/ Mola Mola Pre/DAC, etc.). There are a few observations of the Tambaqui in regard to stock Dave, but not with a fully setup Dave.

I hope to eventually get a demo into my system for a proper test. In the meanwhile, at least I’ll get a chance to hear it for myself at Axpona in Oct.


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

iDesign said:


> Currawong seems to have seen the revelation that is the Focal Utopia+Chord DAVE+M Scaler. *In my opinion its the best combination of performance at any price. *Its just outstanding. I owned a black Schiit Yggdrasil A2 and it wasn't in the same league as the DAVE even when used with top amplifier offerings like the my old Eddie Current Balancing Act, Black Widow 2, or Simaudio MOON 430HAD. Its not worth comparing the two and I think highly of Mike Moffat's work at the $2,449 price point.


You need to listen to the Susvara connected to the EF1000 which is connected to the DAVE & M Scaler & Blu CD Transport first before you say that !


----------



## audiobill

edwardsean said:


> Has anyone had a chance to compare their Dave+HMS/HQP/PGGB (+SJ DC3/DC4) with the Tambaqui?
> 
> There is scant firsthand information (Hans Beekhuyzen, AS comparison w/ Mola Mola Pre/DAC, etc.). There are a few observations of the Tambaqui in regard to stock Dave, but not with a fully setup Dave.
> 
> I hope to eventually get a demo into my system for a proper test. In the meanwhile, at least I’ll get a chance to hear it for myself at Axpona in Oct.


Sorry to report that AXPONA has been delayed again, now targeted for April 2022.


----------



## edwardsean

audiobill said:


> Sorry to report that AXPONA has been delayed again, now targeted for April 2022.


Sigh. I will have to wait and get the Tambaqui in for a home demo then. It is going to be the only way to do a proper test anyway. At present, it’s the only DAC that I would like to compare with a Dave system.


----------



## iDesign (Aug 24, 2021)

Bonesy Jonesy said:


> You need to listen to the Susvara connected to the EF1000 which is connected to the DAVE & M Scaler & Blu CD Transport first before you say that !


I didn't care for the tuning of the Susvara and I much prefer the Utopia. As a longtime member of Head-Fi, the sum of equipment I’ve invested in and sold is likely among the highest of users here. The DAVE, Blu MK II, Utopia are the only pieces of kit that have remained on my shelf and that’s unlikely to change anytime soon. I have no reason to continue the search after buying them because the biggest hinderance isn’t the headphone, it’s all the problems with streaming audio— and that’s why it’s no secret I prefer CDs.


----------



## audio_1

iDesign said:


> I didn't care for the tuning of the Susvara and I much prefer the Utopia. As a longtime member of Head-Fi, the sum of equipment I’ve invested in and sold is likely among the highest of users here. The DAVE, Blu MK II, Utopia are the only pieces of kit that have remained on my shelf and that’s unlikely to change anytime soon. I have no reason to continue the search after buying them because the biggest hinderance isn’t the headphone, it’s all the problems with streaming audio— and that’s why it’s no secret I prefer CDs.



I agree.. I can't understand why people want to change from Dave to another dac. I have chosen not to use the word upgrade as it is obviously a down grade. The unique technical properties and sound quality of the Dave and M-scaler don't appear to be appreciated my many owners. It they are not happy with how their system sounds or are not enjoying the music, there must be a weak link some where else in their systems.


----------



## VladYR

@adrianm 

I finally got Innuos tech support to restore and update the Zen (not the Zenith unfortunately) this afternoon. It took about an hour to upload and sort through roughly 670 albums. It likely would be faster with the SSD in the Zenith. I’ve done some listening over the last couple hours. This is definitely better than the Naim Uniti Core. The sound is a lot more satisfying. Browsing is quite nice but I have yet to figure out how to organize albums by artists. Despite being a HDD based device, it appears to be rather quiet.


----------



## sm60

VladYR said:


> @adrianm
> 
> I finally got Innuos tech support to restore and update the Zen (not the Zenith unfortunately) this afternoon. It took about an hour to upload and sort through roughly 670 albums. It likely would be faster with the SSD in the Zenith. I’ve done some listening over the last couple hours. This is definitely better than the Naim Uniti Core. The sound is a lot more satisfying. Browsing is quite nice but I have yet to figure out how to organize albums by artists. Despite being a HDD based device, it appears to be rather quiet.


This is the primary reason I chose not to invest in the Innuos line of products. I just built my own Roon Core server, starting with the Intel NUC core i7 processor with 32gig of RAM (way more powerful than anything offered by Innuos and way cheaper as well), and then adding a fanless enclosure from Amazon. Of course you need to be comfortable working with the inside of a PC, but as I’ve built many workstation class PCs with professional GPUs, this was a piece of cake. It’s been bullet proof and absolutely quiet as there are no fans and the music is on a 8TB SSD drive. Since I built it, I can fix anything if it stops working. I don’t have to rely on some company from Portugal that may go out of business tomorrow.


----------



## VladYR

sm60 said:


> This is the primary reason I chose not to invest in the Innuos line of products. I just built my own Roon Core server, starting with the Intel NUC core i7 processor with 32gig of RAM (way more powerful than anything offered by Innuos and way cheaper as well), and then adding a fanless enclosure from Amazon. Of course you need to be comfortable working with the inside of a PC, but as I’ve built many workstation class PCs with professional GPUs, this was a piece of cake. It’s been bullet proof and absolutely quiet as there are no fans and the music is on a 8TB SSD drive. Since I built it, I can fix anything if it stops working. I don’t have to rely on some company from Portugal that may go out of business tomorrow.


I can understand your point of view but the same can be said about Roon going out business. It has been bought and sold a number of times already. I’ve used Roon before and I don’t like its interface and sound. I’ve built computers before but I’m not interested in searching for different combinations of parts for optimal sound. I’m fairly certain that the cheapest Zen mini will still sound better than a Roon core server and will be cheaper with all costs of the latter added up. To each his own.


----------



## sm60

audio_1 said:


> I agree.. I can't understand why people want to change from Dave to another dac. I have chosen not to use the word upgrade as it is obviously a down grade. The unique technical properties and sound quality of the Dave and M-scaler don't appear to be appreciated my many owners. It they are not happy with how their system sounds or are not enjoying the music, there must be a weak link some where else in their systems.


The world of high end digital audio is fast evolving and Chord is far behind the times. Just look at comparable products from Linn and Naim, two other Brit boutique manufacturers, to see how far Chord has fallen behind. Stand-alone DACs bereft of an integrated streamer that also lacks software upgradability is a 20 year obsolete product design. New digital standards are evolving all the time — as it stands, the Dave is a dead-end product without an upgrade to future functionality. That is not to take anything away from its performance, but in my long experience, DACs come and go. There are lots of great sounding DACs.  The hard problems in high end audio continue to be at the speaker/headphone/listening room end, where distortions are 1000x worse than even the cheesiest $50 Blu ray player you can buy at Walmart.


----------



## Ciggavelli (Aug 24, 2021)

sm60 said:


> This is the primary reason I chose not to invest in the Innuos line of products. I just built my own Roon Core server, starting with the Intel NUC core i7 processor with 32gig of RAM (way more powerful than anything offered by Innuos and way cheaper as well), and then adding a fanless enclosure from Amazon. Of course you need to be comfortable working with the inside of a PC, but as I’ve built many workstation class PCs with professional GPUs, this was a piece of cake. It’s been bullet proof and absolutely quiet as there are no fans and the music is on a 8TB SSD drive. Since I built it, I can fix anything if it stops working. I don’t have to rely on some company from Portugal that may go out of business tomorrow.


I do like Innuos products, in general (I had a Zenith Mk3 in the past and still have a PhoenixUSB).

2 major complaints:

1) I received two Zenith’s that were broken, and then the third got bricked due to one of their updates. It got fixed, but they’re batting 0% in quality control. I could have just randomly got some bad units, but the odds are pretty slim. Luckily, the Phoenix has been fine

2) If you want to upgrade the internal storage, you have to ship it back to Portugal, for them to install their software on their ssd (you can’t do it yourself, and the process is much more expensive than just buying an SSD and putting it into your server). Also, the Zenith can only have 8tb of music total. This is a problem if you have an extensive library or do that PGGB “mastering”.

So I got rid of my Zenith Mk3 because of these issues. I moved on to an Antipodes K50. I’m a big fan, it doesn’t have the storage limitations of the Zenith Mk3, hasn’t broke (Knick on wood), and sounds better. You do pay for it though. However, I’d take a K50 over a Statement because the Statement still has these storage limitations and issues.  🤷‍♂️


----------



## VladYR

sm60 said:


> The world of high end digital audio is fast evolving and Chord is far behind the times. Just look at comparable products from Linn and Naim, two other Brit boutique manufacturers, to see how far Chord has fallen behind. Stand-alone DACs bereft of an integrated streamer that also lacks software upgradability is a 20 year obsolete product design. New digital standards are evolving all the time — as it stands, the Dave is a dead-end product without an upgrade to future functionality. That is not to take anything away from its performance, but in my long experience, DACs come and go. There are lots of great sounding DACs.  The hard problems in high end audio continue to be at the speaker/headphone/listening room end, where distortions are 1000x worse than even the cheesiest $50 Blu ray player you can buy at Walmart.


To be fair, Linn and Naim don’t really produce comparable products. Their lineup of streamers are great and the Dac chips in them are quite nice but I still much prefer the Dave at the end of that chain. Naim attempTed something similar a while back and flopped. Its standalone dac/headphone amp was just way too aggressive sounding. As far as upgradability is concerned, what would you like to see added to it that isn’t already there?


----------



## VladYR

Ciggavelli said:


> I do like Innuos products, in general (I had a Zenith Mk3 in the past and still have a PhoenixUSB).
> 
> 2 major complaints:
> 
> ...


The second point is rather problematic indeed. It really makes me wonder why a dealer can’t do the upgrade. The cost of shipping and the whole length of the process seems absurd, especially now.


----------



## sm60

VladYR said:


> I can understand your point of view but the same can be said about Roon going out business. It has been bought and sold a number of times already. I’ve used Roon before and I don’t like its interface and sound. I’ve built computers before but I’m not interested in searching for different combinations of parts for optimal sound. I’m fairly certain that the cheapest Zen mini will still sound better than a Roon core server and will be cheaper with all costs of the latter added up. To each his own.


It’s your money and your choice, obviously. But as a matter of opinion, John Atkinson, longtime editor of Stereophile, who’s heard more high end digital audio products than any of us have, and measured thousands of digital audio products, did a review of the top of the line Innuos Statement. He found no discernible improvement in sound between the Statement and his Roon Rock server. I haven’t sampled any Innuos products, so I’ll withhold my judgement. But I’m perfectly happy with both my Rock server and with Roon as well. Roon has made a huge difference to my listening and I for one view it as a game changer in high end audio — possibly the single biggest advance since compact discs were invented 40 years ago. It’s no surprise that every high end manufacturer who wants to compete in the market has to ensure their streamers are Roon Ready, or face quick oblivion. 

In any case I don’t worry about digital front ends anymore. That’s not where the major problems in high end audio are. Look at the other end. When your average moving coil loudspeaker has 5-10% harmonic distortion and huge frequency imbalances in the bass due to your listening room, that’s the higher order bit to get right. Headphones are so horribly colored — it’s a joke. Check out the frequency response curves of even the most expensive headphones. The biggest breakthrough in audio reproduction will only happen if we can solve the speaker/headphone/room colorations, which in my long experience dwarf by many orders of magnitude any differences between DACs.


----------



## sm60

Ciggavelli said:


> I do like Innuos products, in general (I had a Zenith Mk3 in the past and still have a PhoenixUSB).
> 
> 2 major complaints:
> 
> ...


Good grief, you have to ship your PC back to Portugal to replace a hard drive? How are these clowns even in business? I don’t want to speculate but this sounds like a sure way to go bankrupt fast. Only in the crazy world of high end audio would a company like this even exist! Imagine if you have to ship your car back to Japan to replace a flat tire!


----------



## VladYR

sm60 said:


> Good grief, you have to ship your PC back to Portugal to replace a hard drive? How are these clowns even in business? I don’t want to speculate but this sounds like a sure way to go bankrupt fast. Only in the crazy world of high end audio would a company like this even exist! Imagine if you have to ship your car back to Japan to replace a flat tire!


You certainly got it right on one point. This sort of nonsense can only exist in the rarified world of high end audio. Yesterday my Linn dealer arranged to ship my Selekt all the way back to Scotland because of a faulty power supply. One month to replace a power supply…


----------



## jlbrach

alxw0w said:


> @Currawong nice review. I really liked the part about black background - Amos made an interesting point.
> I remember in the early days black background was desired from the dac - at least from my side.
> It was seen as something good - oh dac has black background you cannot hear anything between instruments look how low is the noise floor etc.
> But with the Dave that's not the case. There is no black background, you hear so much more like extremely low level details/sounds that background is more like grey - if it makes any sense.


black background to me doesnt mean a lack of musical sounds...it means of lack of noise that degrades the sound and makes it more difficult to hear detail...when I have improved my network...power cables etc the background became more black which let me hear more detail and made bass more prominent..I speak of adding the innuos zenith 3 and the phoenix...I really think he is confusing black background....the powerman added to the formula s also created a blacker background


----------



## tomwoo

audio_1 said:


> I agree.. I can't understand why people want to change from Dave to another dac. I have chosen not to use the word upgrade as it is obviously a down grade. The unique technical properties and sound quality of the Dave and M-scaler don't appear to be appreciated my many owners. It they are not happy with how their system sounds or are not enjoying the music, there must be a weak link some where else in their systems.


How about Mola Mola Tambaqui or dCS Bartok? Some say they have already surpassed Dave. I have never heard Dave, Tambaqui or Bartok, so it's safe to say I would be blown away by any of them


----------



## audio_1 (Aug 25, 2021)

2,021,885.87


sm60 said:


> The world of high end digital audio is fast evolving and Chord is far behind the times. Just look at comparable products from Linn and Naim, two other Brit boutique manufacturers, to see how far Chord has fallen behind.



How can the most advanced dac in the world, the Dave in combination with the M-scaler be far behind the times compared to dacs using off the shelf dac chips, or one that hasn't changed much in the last 20 years and has it's analogue outputs connected with computer ribbon cable? You really don't understand Rob Watts achievements or the sound quality that he has achieved.


----------



## Hooster

sm60 said:


> In any case* I don’t worry about digital front ends anymore. *That’s not where the major problems in high end audio are. Look at the other end. When your average moving coil loudspeaker has 5-10% harmonic distortion and huge frequency imbalances in the bass due to your listening room, that’s the higher order bit to get right. Headphones are so horribly colored — it’s a joke. Check out the frequency response curves of even the most expensive headphones. *The biggest breakthrough in audio reproduction will only happen if we can solve the speaker/headphone/room colorations, which in my long experience dwarf by many orders of magnitude any differences between DACs.*



Agreed, digital front ends are not an issue, unless you are desperately looking for something to sink money into. 

Great news, your trials and tribulations with respect to headphones are over: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...alth-review-state-of-the-art-headphone.25920/


----------



## iDesign

audio_1 said:


> How can the most advanced dac in the world, the Dave in combination with the M-scaler be far behind the times...


The answer is 82 trolling posts.


----------



## adrianm

I can't seem to find @Rob Watts old posts on Dave's headphone amp specs, does anyone have any opinion (if not objective values ) on how well Dave could drive the Stealth based on ASR's measurements?


----------



## DJJEZ

adrianm said:


> I can't seem to find @Rob Watts old posts on Dave's headphone amp specs, does anyone have any opinion (if not objective values ) on how well Dave could drive the Stealth based on ASR's measurements?


----------



## Ragnar-BY (Aug 25, 2021)

@DJJEZ  there are milliVolts in one pic and Watts in other. These are not the same.


----------



## miketlse

Ragnar-BY said:


> @DJJEZ  there are milliVolts in one pic and Watts in other. These are not the same.


Maybe you and i are flagging up the same question, in that most, if not all the spreadsheets in chord threads, refer to mW to reach a certain sound pressure level, the posted image refers to mV instead. This compares apples to oranges, and easily confuses non technical head-fi posters.


----------



## Kirklandia

miketlse said:


> easily confuses non technical head-fi posters


I had no idea there were so many Rob Watts


----------



## miketlse

Kirklandia said:


> I had no idea there were so many Rob Watts


Is that a dig at me, or someone else?


----------



## jlbrach

a new m-scaler makes perfect sense...this way he can keep the dave as the basic DAC and rather than updating it he can continue to update the m-scaler..


----------



## TopQuark

jlbrach said:


> a new m-scaler makes perfect sense...this way he can keep the dave as the basic DAC and rather than updating it he can continue to update the m-scaler..


So the new m-scaler will have the Dave footprint.  I wouldn't be surprised there will be a follow-up version with TT2 footprint.

The USB will likely be upgraded too using XMOS2 or other alternatives better than Amanero.

I like the direction Chord is going to although I am still waiting for a streamer with dBNC and TT2 footprint.


----------



## Currawong

Every time you add functionality, something has to be compromised -- usually the sound quality.  The other problem is, if you have a high-end DAC with streaming or something else built-in, if the streaming hardware becomes obsolete, then you have to replace the whole DAC to upgrade it, or buy a separate device, so you're back to square one.

Not to mention, products are judged by their worst-performing feature, even if everything else is excellent. 

One of the most significant things about the Chord DACs is how they've withstood the test of time. It has been 6 years since the DAVE was released, and it is still a wished-for, and presumably good-selling device.


----------



## jlbrach

yes, the dave is so good that 6 yrs later it is difficult to find anything that has surpassed it and believe me I am willing to look into anything lol


----------



## Rob Watts

adrianm said:


> I can't seem to find @Rob Watts old posts on Dave's headphone amp specs, does anyone have any opinion (if not objective values ) on how well Dave could drive the Stealth based on ASR's measurements?



Dave will drive the Stealth with ease - with max volume you would get an ear damaging 125dB SPL from Dave...


----------



## adrianm

Rob Watts said:


> Dave will drive the Stealth with ease - with max volume you would get an ear damaging 125dB SPL from Dave...


Thanks for the reply  Pending some impressions from others, it's starting to look like a sure thing for me.


----------



## Hooster

Currawong said:


> Every time you add functionality, something has to be compromised -- usually the sound quality.  The other problem is, if you have a high-end DAC with streaming or something else built-in, if the streaming hardware becomes obsolete, then you have to replace the whole DAC to upgrade it, or buy a separate device, so you're back to square one.



Amen, could not agree more. A DAC should be a DAC, no more and no less. It is the obsolescence that I care about the most and prevents me from buying DACs that are tacked onto something else.


----------



## burbster

Hi All, 
I seem to be suffering a bout of upgradeitis, and it is now getting serious, I am considering trading in my Dave and MScaler! I am looking at the Aqua Formula Xhd. Anyway, the cost of the actual change would be quite small, largely due to the excellent residuals of both the Chord products, however, once I factor in a pre-amp (may go passive) and quality interconnects, the cost then begins to approach that of a DC4 power supply. My question is, to those who have heard or own the DC4 or any other after market Dave PSU, what effect (if any) does it have specifically on sound stage, particularly sound stage depth?  

Another question, and perhaps a rather silly one, but does anyone use the Dave with a passive pre-amp? Is there any advantage to doing the volume control in the analogue domain and running Dave in DAC only mode? Particularly given how well implemented Dave's digital volume control is.  (I only use one source, and could use very short interconnects, so a passive is an option for me.)


----------



## Bonesy Jonesy

burbster said:


> Hi All,
> I seem to be suffering a bout of upgradeitis, and it is now getting serious, I am considering trading in my Dave and MScaler! I am looking at the Aqua Formula Xhd. Anyway, the cost of the actual change would be quite small, largely due to the excellent residuals of both the Chord products, however, once I factor in a pre-amp (may go passive) and quality interconnects, the cost then begins to approach that of a DC4 power supply. My question is, to those who have heard or own the DC4 or any other after market Dave PSU, what effect (if any) does it have specifically on sound stage, particularly sound stage depth?
> 
> Another question, and perhaps a rather silly one, but does anyone use the Dave with a passive pre-amp? Is there any advantage to doing the volume control in the analogue domain and running Dave in DAC only mode? Particularly given how well implemented Dave's digital volume control is.  (I only use one source, and could use very short interconnects, so a passive is an option for me.)


I run DAVE (with M Scaler) just as a DAC to my Hifiman EF1000 Amp (EF1000 has tube pre-amp & ss headphone & speaker power amp) with my Susvaras and it sounds amazing.  

I also run my DAVE as a DAC to my Chord Prima Pre-Amp which is connected to my Chord Mezzo 140 Power Amp which I much prefer than DAVE (with it's digital Pre-Amp mode) direct to the Mezzo 140.


----------



## Sampajanna

burbster said:


> Hi All,
> I seem to be suffering a bout of upgradeitis, and it is now getting serious, I am considering trading in my Dave and MScaler! I am looking at the Aqua Formula Xhd. Anyway, the cost of the actual change would be quite small, largely due to the excellent residuals of both the Chord products, however, once I factor in a pre-amp (may go passive) and quality interconnects, the cost then begins to approach that of a DC4 power supply. My question is, to those who have heard or own the DC4 or any other after market Dave PSU, what effect (if any) does it have specifically on sound stage, particularly sound stage depth?
> 
> Another question, and perhaps a rather silly one, but does anyone use the Dave with a passive pre-amp? Is there any advantage to doing the volume control in the analogue domain and running Dave in DAC only mode? Particularly given how well implemented Dave's digital volume control is.  (I only use one source, and could use very short interconnects, so a passive is an option for me.)


The DC4 changes/ improves everything. Takes the Dave into big boy territory. Worth every penny IMO…


----------



## miketlse

burbster said:


> Hi All,
> I seem to be suffering a bout of upgradeitis, and it is now getting serious, I am considering trading in my Dave and MScaler! I am looking at the Aqua Formula Xhd. Anyway, the cost of the actual change would be quite small, largely due to the excellent residuals of both the Chord products, however, once I factor in a pre-amp (may go passive) and quality interconnects, the cost then begins to approach that of a DC4 power supply. My question is, to those who have heard or own the DC4 or any other after market Dave PSU, what effect (if any) does it have specifically on sound stage, particularly sound stage depth?
> 
> Another question, and perhaps a rather silly one, but does anyone use the Dave with a passive pre-amp? Is there any advantage to doing the volume control in the analogue domain and running Dave in DAC only mode? Particularly given how well implemented Dave's digital volume control is.  (I only use one source, and could use very short interconnects, so a passive is an option for me.)


I think @Triode User had a passive preamp.


----------



## Triode User

miketlse said:


> I think @Triode User had a passive preamp.


@burbster  I used a Music First Audio transformer volume control passive pre with my Dave and valve/tube power amps because I always felt that the Dave direct into valve power amps had a deteriorated sound quality. It was very marked.

However with my ss Pass Labs power amps the Dave direct is the best and most transparent option. (The Music First Audio transformer volume control passive pre is not far behind but it is definitely slightly worse).

I currently use a DC4 with my Dave (well actually I have the upgraded ARC6 version because Sean asked me to listen to a prototype). Adding the DC4 to the Dave was one of the best decisions of my hifi purchasing. It turns the excellent Dave into a stellar all conquering DAC.


----------



## burbster

Thanks for the feedback guys, just made some tentative enquiries about a DC4 with Sean from custom HiFi.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

Another vote for Dave on a DC4, although I do not (yet) have the ARC6 conversion.

I also have an MScaler and have run PGGB and non-PGGB with and without HMS.

For a few months now, I play and stream from Extreme to Denefrips Gaia via USB, convert to SPDIF into Dave.

No upsampling, just whatever res I have. It's fantastic. Sound stage is amazing. Detail. Playing Amused to Death makes my new puppy crazy. Sounds like people are sitting on the side sofa. Funny.

If I'm honest...and I am, sir...I don't really like de-constructing the Dave. I have considered an MSB stack. But I do think the de-constructed Dave is very, very good.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

MarkusBarkus said:


> Another vote for Dave on a DC4, although I do not (yet) have the ARC6 conversion.
> 
> I also have an MScaler and have run PGGB and non-PGGB with and without HMS.
> 
> ...


...ps @burbster I run in DAC mode to Luxman c900 to 2xLuxman m900 amps.


----------



## OrenT

hi
can anyone tell me if Chord Dave uses universal voltage? for example, if I'm using Euro voltage (I think it's 220v), can I use a Dave originally bought for the Australian market (230v)? 
thanks!


----------



## Torq

OrenT said:


> hi
> can anyone tell me if Chord Dave uses universal voltage? for example, if I'm using Euro voltage (I think it's 220v), can I use a Dave originally bought for the Australian market (230v)?
> thanks!



DAVE has an auto-switching PSU that'll work from 90V to 250V (both AC, obviously) on either 50 or 60Hz systems.


----------



## DJJEZ

My black DAVE has finally turned up. I was quoted 6 to 8 weeks to be made but after 4 weeks it's turned up


----------



## Progisus

Are the backgrounds darker?


----------



## jlbrach

DJJEZ said:


> My black DAVE has finally turned up. I was quoted 6 to 8 weeks to be made but after 4 weeks it's turned up


enjoy, great combo with the formula s/powerman


----------



## edwardsean

Progisus said:


> Are the backgrounds darker?


It's a tradeoff. The silver model is brighter with more high-end. (Grin).


----------



## sm60

audio_1 said:


> 2,021,885.87
> 
> 
> How can the most advanced dac in the world, the Dave in combination with the M-scaler be far behind the times compared to dacs using off the shelf dac chips, or one that hasn't changed much in the last 20 years and has it's analogue outputs connected with computer ribbon cable? You really don't understand Rob Watts achievements or the sound quality that he has achieved.


With all due respect to Rob Watts, and I mean no disrespect to him or Chord, the idea that the M-scaler or the Dave has fundamentally changed digital audio science is patently absurd. When you measure even inexpensive DACs like the Topping 90, it has every type of distortion below -120dB. The science of DACs has been well known for over 50 years. Shannon’s information theory that established digital audio was done in the late 1940s.

If you point me to one scientific article published in an established IEEE journal on digital signal processing or information theory or even the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society that proves Chord’s design is superior, I’ll eat my hat. If you read John Atkinson’s review of the M-scaler in Stereophile, you’ll see he questions the very premise that a million tap filter is intrinsically better than other approaches. There’s really only subjective evidence and here it’s all one’s opinion vs someone else’s.

Don’t get me wrong. I enjoy listening to my M-scaler and the Dave. It’s a perfectly fine sounding digital audio front end. But I don’t for s moment believe it’s out of the ballpark superior to brands like dCS, who by the way haven’t used off the DACs for more than 30 years! There are many audiophile brands that use customized DAC solutions, e.g., TAS did a very favorable review of the Denafrips discrete ladder R2R DAC a few months ago.

I’m not trolling. I’m simply saying don’t get taken in by voodoo. If you genuinely want to improve your listening experience invest in good headphones or loudspeakers, pay attention to your listening room and above all attend live concerts. I can’t bear to listen to the m-scaler or the Dave for a few days after hearing a live concert by the San Francisco symphony. There’s simply no comparison between live vs. reproduced sound. I wish we would focus on the weakest link in the chain, and to me, that’s not the DAC or the upsampling algorithm. My two cents, but backed by every serious scientist in digital audio processing I know of. If you point me some scientific literature that proves me wrong, I’d love to read it!


----------



## EuropeanEar

iDesign said:


> Currawong seems to have seen the revelation that is the Focal Utopia+Chord DAVE+M Scaler. In my opinion its the best combination of performance at any price.


No offense but I doubt it.  Have you ever heard the MSB Technologies Select DAC with the MSB Select headphone amplifier?  The Nagra HD DAC with the Sennheiser HE 1?  dCS Vivaldi stack connected to a Blue Hawaii/Stax SR-009s combo?  Because that’s what is out there “at any price point.”


iDesign said:


> I owned a black Schiit Yggdrasil A2 and it wasn't in the same league as the DAVE even when used with top amplifier offerings…


I still have my old Yggdrasil and it is an outstanding product at a very, very decent price.  Of course they’re not in the same league since the DAVE costs about 4-5 times more (depending on where you live).


iDesign said:


> Its not worth comparing the two and I think highly of Mike Moffat's work at the $2,449 price point.


That’s exactly my point: it’s not worth comparing two DACs when the price difference is this big.


----------



## jlbrach

sm60 said:


> With all due respect to Rob Watts, and I mean no disrespect to him or Chord, the idea that the M-scaler or the Dave has fundamentally changed digital audio science is patently absurd. When you measure even inexpensive DACs like the Topping 90, it has every type of distortion below -120dB. The science of DACs has been well known for over 50 years. Shannon’s information theory that established digital audio was done in the late 1940s.
> 
> If you point me to one scientific article published in an established IEEE journal on digital signal processing or information theory or even the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society that proves Chord’s design is superior, I’ll eat my hat. If you read John Atkinson’s review of the M-scaler in Stereophile, you’ll see he questions the very premise that a million tap filter is intrinsically better than other approaches. There’s really only subjective evidence and here it’s all one’s opinion vs someone else’s.
> 
> ...


not sure what the purpose of this rant was or why you even frequent the chord dave thread


----------



## muski

And there's that ever-so-useful "Ignore" button!


----------



## tomwoo

sm60 said:


> With all due respect to Rob Watts, and I mean no disrespect to him or Chord, the idea that the M-scaler or the Dave has fundamentally changed digital audio science is patently absurd. When you measure even inexpensive DACs like the Topping 90, it has every type of distortion below -120dB. The science of DACs has been well known for over 50 years. Shannon’s information theory that established digital audio was done in the late 1940s.
> 
> If you point me to one scientific article published in an established IEEE journal on digital signal processing or information theory or even the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society that proves Chord’s design is superior, I’ll eat my hat. If you read John Atkinson’s review of the M-scaler in Stereophile, you’ll see he questions the very premise that a million tap filter is intrinsically better than other approaches. There’s really only subjective evidence and here it’s all one’s opinion vs someone else’s.
> 
> ...


I think it is quite obvious why companies choose not to publish their proprietary technologies in scientific journals...


----------



## iDesign (Aug 27, 2021)

EuropeanEar said:


> No offense but I doubt it.  Have you ever heard the MSB Technologies Select DAC with the MSB Select headphone amplifier?  The Nagra HD DAC with the Sennheiser HE 1?  dCS Vivaldi stack connected to a Blue Hawaii/Stax SR-009s combo?  Because that’s what is out there “at any price point.”


Search. I have heard MSB Select+MSB Headphone Amplifier at their Watsonville, CA facility, the Sennheiser HE-1 on numerous occasions, the dCS Rossini and Bartók, owned the Stax 009 system many years ago, owned the Abyss 1266 Phi TC etc. etc. I have been a member of this site since 2004 and the days that SinglePower Audio, Eddie Current, and Ray Samuels were all the rage. And that doesn't even begin to count all of the flagship IEMs and speakers I've bought and sold. A few members like Raypin, Nomax, Mike Lavigne and a handful others have me beat. And I admit that I haven't dabbled much in brands like Dan Clark Audio and have avoided others like Woo Audio, HiFiMan and Audeze. But in my opinion the DAVE+Blu Mk II+Utopia is where the defense rests.


----------



## DJJEZ

Progisus said:


> Are the backgrounds darker?


Its the same. I had a silver loaner DAVE prior to the black DAVE arriving. the camera on my phone just sucks lol


----------



## EuropeanEar

iDesign said:


> Search.


I don’t have to.  I asked you a simple question and you answered it; this is what a forum like this is for.


iDesign said:


> I have heard MSB Select+MSB Headphone Amplifier at their Watsonville, CA facility, the Sennheiser HE-1 on numerous occasions, the dCS Rossini and Bartók, owned the Stax 009 system many years ago, owned the Abyss 1266 Phi TC etc. etc.


Don’t get me wrong, I love the DAVE/M Scaler sound.  But just like the Yggdrasil is not in the same league with the DAVE, the DAVE is not in the same league with the MSB Select.  That’s just the harsh reality.


iDesign said:


> But in my opinion the DAVE+Blu Mk II+Utopia is where the defense rests.


It’s great if you’re happy with them or you found your end-game setup.  However, it doesn’t mean that it beats everything at any price point.


----------



## jlbrach

EuropeanEar said:


> I don’t have to.  I asked you a simple question and you answered it; this is what a forum like this is for.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, I love the DAVE/M Scaler sound.  But just like the Yggdrasil is not in the same league with the DAVE, the DAVE is not in the same league with the MSB Select.  That’s just the harsh reality.
> 
> It’s great if you’re happy with them or you found your end-game setup.  However, it doesn’t mean that it beats everything at any price point.


you mean the DAC THAT COSTS 100K LOL?


----------



## EuropeanEar

jlbrach said:


> you mean the DAC THAT COSTS 100K LOL?


Yes, I mean the DAC and headphone amplifier that cost way more than $100k, because the original claim was “at any price point”.


----------



## MatW

DJJEZ said:


> Its the same. I had a silver loaner DAVE prior to the black DAVE arriving. the camera on my phone just sucks lol


----------



## audio_1 (Aug 27, 2021)

0


----------



## adrianm

EuropeanEar said:


> Yes, I mean the DAC and headphone amplifier that cost way more than $100k, because the original claim was “at any price point”.


I'm going to take SM60's position and ask to see some proof that what MSB is doing is the state of the art, and not just "Hi-Fi tuning" with a side of "Distortion seasoning" tailored to different tastes, which is 90% of what people who already have the best gear enjoy chasing because frankly...when there's no better, you start looking for "different".


----------



## iDesign

EuropeanEar said:


> However, it doesn’t mean that it beats everything at any price point.


Again, in my opinion and experience, the DAVE+Blu Mk II has.


----------



## ecwl

sm60 said:


> With all due respect to Rob Watts, and I mean no disrespect to him or Chord, the idea that the M-scaler or the Dave has fundamentally changed digital audio science is patently absurd. When you measure even inexpensive DACs like the Topping 90, it has every type of distortion below -120dB. The science of DACs has been well known for over 50 years. Shannon’s information theory that established digital audio was done in the late 1940s.
> 
> I’m not trolling. I can’t bear to listen to the m-scaler or the Dave for a few days after hearing a live concert by the San Francisco symphony. There’s simply no comparison between live vs. reproduced sound.


I just don’t understand your comments to be honest. Sure, live is better than reproduced sound. Sure, headphones, speakers, room acoustics and many other things affect sonic qualities. But to imply DAVE is not significantly better than Topping 90???

Let’s go to Audio Science Review and looking at the measurements of Topping D90 vs Chord Qutest:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ew-and-measurements-of-chord-qutest-dac.5981/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nd-measurements-of-topping-d90-4499dac.10281/
Now the measurements advantages Topping D90 because it was measured at 4V whereas Qutest was at 2V.

1. On 1kHz test tone, Qutest has only 2nd order harmonic and nothing above whereas Topping D90 has lots more higher order harmonic.
2. In terms of low-level linearity, Qutest between -120dB to -110dB has less than 0.3dB deviation whereas Topping D90 is at >1dB deviation by -1dB
3. In the jitter test, Chord Qutest has no side bands and a much narrower peak than Topping D90
4. In the 32-tone distortion test, Qutest has a lower noise floor of -130dB to -140dB instead of Topping D90’s -120dB to -130dB. Moreover, Toppping has a lot of extra peaks as you can see between 20-200Hz that we can easily see at low levels

Sure, reviewers all have their preferences and I do believe anyone should get whatever audio gear they like because they’re spending their own money. And yes, of course a $100 pair of headphones is going to measure significantly worse than a $2000 pair whereas the measurement differences between a well-designed $100 DAC and that of Chord Qutest are much smaller. But I think within the DAC category, Rob Watts’ digital products are pushing boundaries as you can see from the measurements.

Of course, it is true that there is no scientific/engineering research paper that shows Chord DAC design philosophies are superior to others. But this is true for many product categories, like scientific papers that demonstrate the engines used in a Porsche is much better than that in a Honda Civic or that a double-blinded driver would have a better experience driving a Porsche vs Honda Civic because of the better engine and suspension characteristics. But I don’t think the absence of scientific publication implies that all the new products we are getting in the 21st century are not necessarily better.


----------



## DJJEZ

My dealer just told me Chord is Increasing the price of the DAVE next week by £500


----------



## burbster

Just pulled the trigger on a DC4, went for the standard version. The ARC6 version is going to be around £1600 extra, but Sean has indicated that you can upgrade a standard DC4 for the exact same price, which I think is great and may well be an option I pursue in the future. With this rather specific purchase I guess I will be sticking with a DAVE for a while!


----------



## DJJEZ

MatW said:


>


----------



## thePhones

edwardsean said:


> It's a tradeoff. The silver model is brighter with more high-end. (Grin).


That is why I have the silver MScaler with a black Dave. So I got the sparkly highs and also the deep rumbling bass, everything sitting on white wood for vocal clarity.


----------



## LucyWu

burbster said:


> Just pulled the trigger on a DC4, went for the standard version. The ARC6 version is going to be around £1600 extra, but Sean has indicated that you can upgrade a standard DC4 for the exact same price...


Gosh, such generosity


----------



## gancanjam

Have listened to Dave and it is a great DAC paired with Simaudio Moon Neo 430 amplifier & Utopia HP .  Liked the Natural sound, layering, resolution, neutral tone and mainly the dynamics of brining out different instruments to slap your face. But it is bit pricey  can anyone provide alternate DAC recommendations to Dave with  a better price point for EDM / Pop music ?


----------



## iDesign (Aug 27, 2021)

gancanjam said:


> Have listened to Dave and it is a great DAC paired with Simaudio Moon Neo 430 amplifier & Utopia HP .  Liked the Natural sound, layering, resolution, neutral tone and mainly the dynamics of brining out different instruments to slap your face. But it is bit pricey  can anyone provide alternate DAC recommendations to Dave with  a better price point for EDM / Pop music ?


Hugo TT 2 and perhaps consider adding the Hugo M Scsler later if it is within your budget.


----------



## edwardsean

gancanjam said:


> Have listened to Dave and it is a great DAC paired with Simaudio Moon Neo 430 amplifier & Utopia HP .  Liked the Natural sound, layering, resolution, neutral tone and mainly the dynamics of brining out different instruments to slap your face. But it is bit pricey  can anyone provide alternate DAC recommendations to Dave with  a better price point for EDM / Pop music ?


The best cheaper alternative to a Dave may be a used Dave. They pop up regularly on the used market. You can check here and on USHifiMart, Audiogon. As long as you ascertain the seller has a good record it’s relatively low risk. Especially, if they have a good track record here. 

It may be out of warranty, but as we know, they are supremely well built.


----------



## tomwoo

iDesign said:


> Hugo TT 2 and perhaps consider adding the Hugo M Scsler if it is within your budget.


That's already the same price as Dave alone.


----------



## gancanjam

Can Yggy A2 match Dave ? any comparisons folks ?


----------



## iDesign (Aug 27, 2021)

tomwoo said:


> That's already the same price as Dave alone.


Ideally the Hugo M Scaler can be added later or purchased used. However, its not out of the cards to find a dealer that will discount the order.  With no shortage of used DAVEs for sale that would be my single box recommendation. As for the Yggdrasil A2, I think it’s a great DAC but bares more differences than similarities to Chord DACs–  its flat soundstage presentation is the most apparent difference.


----------



## jlbrach

I owned a yiggy yrs ago and traded up to the dave and as much as I recommend the yiggy I thought the hugo 2 was better...that said many love it


----------



## Currawong

gancanjam said:


> Can Yggy A2 match Dave ? any comparisons folks ?


No. The Yggy A2 is comparable to the Hugo 2 in my experience, if used as a DAC to a high-end headphone amp.


----------



## Sampajanna

Currawong said:


> No. The Yggy A2 is comparable to the Hugo 2 in my experience, if used as a DAC to a high-end headphone amp.


Good Dave video Currawong!


----------



## gancanjam

If Yggy cant stand up to mighty Dave then I heard another one good DAC, Holo audio May KTE is comparable and some of the reviews states it is even better than Dave. I dont think it is as popular as Dave so if anyone have experience then please chime in.


----------



## DJJEZ

gancanjam said:


> If Yggy cant stand up to mighty Dave then I heard another one good DAC, Holo audio May KTE is comparable and some of the reviews states it is even better than Dave. I dont think it is as popular as Dave so if anyone have experience then please chime in.


Its an amazing dac.I have multiple  friends with it who love it


----------



## burbster

LucyWu said:


> Gosh, such generosity


ha ha, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, but the highest form of intellect


----------



## burbster

gancanjam said:


> Have listened to Dave and it is a great DAC paired with Simaudio Moon Neo 430 amplifier & Utopia HP .  Liked the Natural sound, layering, resolution, neutral tone and mainly the dynamics of brining out different instruments to slap your face. But it is bit pricey  can anyone provide alternate DAC recommendations to Dave with  a better price point for EDM / Pop music


The Holo May, it it’s various versions seems to be getting very good reviews, not listened to one myself though. There is a you tube review with a direct comparison to a Dave mscaler. In that one, reviewer concludes Dave combo not even close to Holo. Then good old Hans, who has also reviewed both, loved the Holo, but bought a Dave/mscaler and said of the comparison, it’s like comparing a BMW 3 series to a Mercedes S Class, with chord combo being the S class of course!


----------



## Ciggavelli

For those with the DC4, can it be completely turned off without removing the power cable?  When the switch is “on” ( I ) or “off” ( O ), my Dave still glows red, as if the power supply is still powering it. Is this normal?


----------



## Triode User

burbster said:


> The Holo May, it it’s various versions seems to be getting very good reviews, not listened to one myself though. There is a you tube review with a direct comparison to a Dave mscaler. In that one, reviewer concludes Dave combo not even close to Holo. Then good old Hans, who has also reviewed both, loved the Holo, but bought a Dave/mscaler and said of the comparison, it’s like comparing a BMW 3 series to a Mercedes S Class, with chord combo being the S class of course!


Really I dispair sometimes with with some of these reviews that people quote regarding the Holo May. I had a L2 for 3 weeks and a friend had it for 3 weeks before that so it was pretty well run in. He concluded it was no where near as good as his TT2. I concluded it was not as good as my Qutest with a half decent power supply and it sounded plain poor compared to a solo Dave. Adding an Mscaler just added insult to injury to the poor old May. I also tried the May with 705 and 768 PGGB files all with the same result. I know the new owner is very happy with it but the May was not for me and to describe is as a Dave + Mscaler killer is laughable, IMHO of course 🤣 ! YMMV etc etc. 🤪


----------



## Triode User (Aug 28, 2021)

Ciggavelli said:


> For those with the DC4, can it be completely turned off without removing the power cable?  When the switch is “on” ( I ) or “off” ( O ), my Dave still glows red, as if the power supply is still powering it. Is this normal?


The  I / O switch on the DC4 is wired to turn off the mains to the DC4 (it is a double pole switch so completely isolates from the mains without pulling out the rear mains plug) but it has large capacitors so those will take some time to discharge. Having said that my Dave light goes off quite quickly after I turn off the DC4. In reality though I never turn off the DC4 and that is the best way to use a DC4 because every time you turn it off and let the caps discharge they will get quite a jolt upon power on and it will take time to restabilise. A new DC4 will in any case take a few hundred hours for the Mundorf caps to settle down so if yours is new it is certainly best to leave it on for the first month even if you decide to turn it off between listening after that. If you are in any doubt you are best to email Vassil or Sean direct. They both usually respond quickly by email.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Triode User said:


> The  I / O switch on the DC4 is wired to turn off the mains to the DC4 (it is a double pole switch so completely isolates from the mains without pulling out the rear mains plug) but it has large capacitors so those will take some time to discharge. Having said that my Dave light goes off quite quickly after I turn off the DC4. In reality though I never turn off the DC4 and that is the best way to use a DC4 because every time you turn it off and let the caps discharge they will get quite a jolt upon power on and it will take time to restabilise. A new DC4 will in any case take a few hundred hours for the Mundorf caps to settle down so if yours is new it is certainly best to leave it on for the first month even if you decide to turn it off between listening after that. If you are in any doubt you are best to email Vassil or Sean direct. They both usually respond quickly by email.


Thanks!


----------



## edwardsean (Aug 28, 2021)

Placing aside sonic preferences, I think it’s been recognized that the popular R2R DACs (Yggdrasil, Holo May, Terminator Plus) are just not in the same performance class as DAVE.

I think you really need to look to other custom coded FPGA gambits. I would very much like to get a Grimm MU1+Mola Mola Tambaqui combo to put up against my Dave system. These days I seem to keep hearing about Bruno Putzeys legendary digital prowess.


----------



## alxw0w (Aug 28, 2021)

burbster said:


> The Holo May, it it’s various versions seems to be getting very good reviews, not listened to one myself though. There is a you tube review with a direct comparison to a Dave mscaler. In that one, reviewer concludes Dave combo not even close to Holo. Then good old Hans, who has also reviewed both, loved the Holo, but bought a Dave/mscaler and said of the comparison, it’s like comparing a BMW 3 series to a Mercedes S Class, with chord combo being the S class of course!


You can read my impressions Here
To me it was nowhere close. Completely different sound.


----------



## burbster

Triode User said:


> Really I dispair sometimes with with some of these reviews that people quote regarding the Holo May. I had a L2 for 3 weeks and a friend had it for 3 weeks before that so it was pretty well run in. He concluded it was no where near as good as his TT2. I concluded it was not as good as my Qutest with a half decent power supply and it sounded plain poor compared to a solo Dave. Adding an Mscaler just added insult to injury to the poor old May. I also tried the May with 705 and 768 PGGB files all with the same result. I know the new owner is very happy with it but the May was not for me and to describe is as a Dave + Mscaler killer is laughable, IMHO of course 🤣 ! YMMV etc etc. 🤪





alxw0w said:


> You can read my impressions Here
> To me it was nowhere close. Completely different sound.


Good, so I can rest easy that my money was best spent on a DC4 rather than a Holo May and Preamp.


----------



## alxw0w

burbster said:


> Good, so I can rest easy that my money was best spent on a DC4 rather than a Holo May and Preamp.


Cannot comment on Dc4 as I've never heard it. But based on impressions posted over the forums it seems like it makes Dave more Dave.
So if you don't want anything different just better Dave then yes, I suppose DC4 was right move.


----------



## musickid (Aug 28, 2021)

Anyone using top of the range ultrasone headphones with dave? Edition 15 or Edition 15 veritas.


----------



## burbster

alxw0w said:


> Cannot comment on Dc4 as I've never heard it. But based on impressions posted over the forums it seems like it makes Dave more Dave.
> So if you don't want anything different just better Dave then yes, I suppose DC4 was right move.


I guess only time will tell, lead time on DC4 around 5 weeks. I was a little tempted with the Holo, and an Aqua formula, I really enjoy a deep holographic sound stage, and both those DACs are meant to do that really well, with a great sense or ‘realism’ To be fair Dave is also pretty awesome at this, and hoping DC4 will make it even more so.


----------



## thePhones (Aug 28, 2021)

musickid said:


> Anyone using top of the range ultrasone headphones with dave? Edition 15 or Edition 15 veritas.


I use the Edition 5 with Dave. It is of course a closed headphone therefor not quite comparable to my other headphones in that way. The Edition 5 is far from a neutral tuning but I don‘t mind very much because I am happy with the transparency of the EQ I use. Today I mostly prefer the quality of open headphones but I come back to the Edition 5 from time to time because of the very natural “live“ feeling that none of the other quite reach, they have the ability to render the space where the recording was made very naturally. For the most natural timbre of instruments I rather listen with HD800 (although also heavily EQ‘d).
I heard they went for a more neutral tuning with the Edition 15.
Another thing I should mention is, Warranty is 5 years but I had to use it quite often. One dead driver, a broken headband, connection issues with the mmcx plug, the rubber on one of the cables got sticky. It really is a manufacture so they can change some things like my Edition 5 is now getting the new LEMO connector. Was all covered no questions asked but I do not want to go through that outside of Germany.


----------



## RustyGates (Aug 28, 2021)

EuropeanEar said:


> No offense but I doubt it.  Have you ever heard the MSB Technologies Select DAC with the MSB Select headphone amplifier?  The Nagra HD DAC with the Sennheiser HE 1?  dCS Vivaldi stack connected to a Blue Hawaii/Stax SR-009s combo?  Because that’s what is out there “at any price point.”
> 
> I still have my old Yggdrasil and it is an outstanding product at a very, very decent price.  Of course they’re not in the same league since the DAVE costs about 4-5 times more (depending on where you live).
> 
> That’s exactly my point: it’s not worth comparing two DACs when the price difference is this big.





EuropeanEar said:


> I don’t have to.  I asked you a simple question and you answered it; this is what a forum like this is for.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, I love the DAVE/M Scaler sound.  But just like the Yggdrasil is not in the same league with the DAVE, the DAVE is not in the same league with the MSB Select.  That’s just the harsh reality.
> 
> It’s great if you’re happy with them or you found your end-game setup.  However, it doesn’t mean that it beats everything at any price point.



Just because its more expensive, doesn't mean its better. A lot of these hi-fi products are just inflated in price to have a perception of ultra-high-end to them, to place them in the market at some position. If they were priced much cheaper, no one takes it seriously. Look at the price of a D'Agostino Relentless... $250k USD, the price of a house. Those amps, are really worth the price of a house in terms of BOM and manufacturing (yes I know the chassis work is somewhat expensive.. but a house)? No. Is its electronic design anywhere near as complex as, for example an AHB2? Absolutely not.

From memory the DAVE won the RMAF HiFi Press best DAC of the year award twice in a row, over the Vivaldi. And DAVE measures better (see the Stereophile measurements), yet the Vivaldi costs the price of a brand new Mazda SUV, and it doesn't even have a headphone amp. On top of that you have the dCS external clock crap, more expensive s*** you don't need and don't want when a properly implemented PLL sorts the issue.

And as for the MSB... I look at those prices and just think... what the hell? In terms of R2R, does a Select DAC measure 80k USD+ better than a Holo May? HELL No. (see https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/dac/msb-a.php#gsc.tab=0 vs https://www.stereophile.com/content/holoaudio-may-level-3-da-processor-measurements). In fact, it measures worse.

Both the MSB and dCS dacs measure worse than DAVE.

Given how freaking laughable the prices are, why don't these OEMs of "ultra-high-end" equipment actually release measurements of their products to prove how good they are, as Rob Watts does with every product he designs? After all, the job of the DAC is simply to reproduce the original analogue signal as accurately as possible in both frequency & time domains given the digital data. And the DAVE simply does that better with added benefit of a damn good headamp.

Cheers to the rich who have all the gear and no idea.


----------



## ecwl

burbster said:


> I guess only time will tell, lead time on DC4 around 5 weeks. I was a little tempted with the Holo, and an Aqua formula, I really enjoy a deep holographic sound stage, and both those DACs are meant to do that really well, with a great sense or ‘realism’ To be fair Dave is also pretty awesome at this, and hoping DC4 will make it even more so.


For me, because I switch between headphones and speakers once in a while, and i always prefer to listen to headphones with Crossover 3 setting, I sometimes would forget to set crossover back to 0 when I move back to speaker listening and that always messes up the soundstage. The problem is that if I’m listening to my familiar test tracks, I would pick it up right away. But if I’m listening to new music or watching a TV show, I can sometimes miss it for a few days which is truly embarrassing for an audiophile. Just something to always double check if you find the soundstage is a little messed up with speakers.


----------



## arftech

RustyGates said:


> Just because its more expensive, doesn't mean its better. A lot of these hi-fi products are just inflated in price to have a perception of ultra-high-end to them, to place them in the market at some position. If they were priced much cheaper, no one takes it seriously. Look at the price of a D'Agostino Relentless... $250k USD, the price of a house. Those amps, are really worth the price of a house in terms of BOM and manufacturing (yes I know the chassis work is somewhat expensive.. but a house)? No. Is its electronic design anywhere near as complex as, for example an AHB2? Absolutely not.
> 
> From memory the DAVE won the RMAF HiFi Press best DAC of the year award twice in a row, over the Vivaldi. And DAVE measures better (see the Stereophile measurements), yet the Vivaldi costs the price of a brand new Mazda SUV, and it doesn't even have a headphone amp. On top of that you have the dCS external clock crap, more expensive s*** you don't need and don't want when a properly implemented PLL sorts the issue.
> 
> ...


Just because it measures better it doesn’t necessarily mean it will sound better but yes the cost of some of this stuff is ridiculou!


----------



## gancanjam

My quest to determine Dave Vs Holo May DAC is still ongoing with polarized opinions in Head Fi community   Damn Covid !!  meet ups have dried down these days to audition them side by side. I have only heard Dave and it is a fantabulous DAC, it has embarrassed the inbuilt DACs of  Simaudio Moon 430 HAD, Flux FCN-10 and bunch of other DACs.  Will see, there is an another comparison thread for the same so have been doing a check in there. Hope to zero in on a DAC soon


----------



## alxw0w

burbster said:


> I guess only time will tell, lead time on DC4 around 5 weeks. I was a little tempted with the Holo, and an Aqua formula, I really enjoy a deep holographic sound stage, and both those DACs are meant to do that really well, with a great sense or ‘realism’ To be fair Dave is also pretty awesome at this, and hoping DC4 will make it even more so.


Please report back when you get DC4. 
For now I don't want to even think about buying external power supply for the Dave, but oh my god I know that at some point this thought of getting Dave to being more Dave is going to kill me.


----------



## Tubewin (Aug 28, 2021)

gancanjam said:


> My quest to determine Dave Vs Holo May DAC is still ongoing with polarized opinions in Head Fi community   Damn Covid !!  meet ups have dried down these days to audition them side by side. I have only heard Dave and it is a fantabulous DAC, it has embarrassed the inbuilt DACs of  Simaudio Moon 430 HAD, Flux FCN-10 and bunch of other DACs.  Will see, there is an another comparison thread for the same so have been doing a check in there. Hope to zero in on a DAC soon


TylersEclectic has a interesting review/comparison of the May against the Bifrost and Chord TT2. If the TT2 has any similarities to the Dave, perhaps you may be able to glean some information from that. But of course, without the Dave being present, any conclusion between the Dave and May would be premature. Interesting watch nonetheless.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

RustyGates said:


> Just because its more expensive, doesn't mean its better. A lot of these hi-fi products are just inflated in price to have a perception of ultra-high-end to them, to place them in the market at some position. If they were priced much cheaper, no one takes it seriously.


No idea what the Cost of Goods is for these products, or their real margins, but there is also a scale issue: that is economy of scale. How many units are sold by these high-end manufacturers? Likely "lower-level" product numbers fund the flagships.

And @RustyGates has a point re: costs being raised to be taken seriously in the market space. In a different segment, I had a manufacturer client that had a great product; arguably best in the market. Sales were subterranean. Doubled the price, sales skyrocketed, and they had to struggle to make enough of them. And this is not an edge case, in my experience.


----------



## muski

alxw0w said:


> this thought of getting Dave to being more Dave is going to kill me.


Me too!

(Nicely said, @alxw0w)


----------



## EuropeanEar

adrianm said:


> I'm going to take SM60's position and ask to see some proof that what MSB is doing is the state of the art, and not just "Hi-Fi tuning" with a side of "Distortion seasoning" tailored to different tastes, which is 90% of what people who already have the best gear enjoy chasing because frankly...when there's no better, you start looking for "different".


Nobody has to prove you anything.  Go and audition it if you're really interested and hear it yourself.  Then you would have a first-hand experience if it's better or just different.


----------



## EuropeanEar

iDesign said:


> Again, in my opinion and experience, the DAVE+Blu Mk II has.


Again, it's all good if you're happy with your gear that perfectly suits your needs.  However, your subjective opinion does not become an objective fact no matter how much gear you bought/sold or many posts you had here.


----------



## EuropeanEar

RustyGates said:


> Just because its more expensive, doesn't mean its better.


That is true.


RustyGates said:


> A lot of these hi-fi products are just inflated in price to have a perception of ultra-high-end to them, to place them in the market at some position. If they were priced much cheaper, no one takes it seriously.


Speculation.  Yes, it happened a few times that overpriced gear hit the market but those items don't sell good on the long-term.  You simply can't fool just about everybody, dealers, magazines, reviewers, customers.  People are not that stupid.  Sooner or later someone would realize that the emperor has no clothes.
Also, just because we can name overpriced but otherwise mediocre gears, it does not mean that it applies to all high priced items.


RustyGates said:


> Look at the price of a D'Agostino Relentless... $250k USD, the price of a house. Those amps, are really worth the price of a house in terms of BOM and manufacturing (yes I know the chassis work is somewhat expensive.. but a house)?


Well, it depends on where you live.  It could be enough for not more than a down payment around here but this is besides the point.


RustyGates said:


> And DAVE measures better (see the Stereophile measurements), yet the Vivaldi costs the price of a brand new Mazda SUV, and it doesn't even have a headphone amp. On top of that you have the dCS external clock crap, more expensive s*** you don't need and don't want when a properly implemented PLL sorts the issue.
> 
> And as for the MSB... I look at those prices and just think... what the hell? In terms of R2R, does a Select DAC measure 80k USD+ better than a Holo May? HELL No. (see https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/dac/msb-a.php#gsc.tab=0 vs https://www.stereophile.com/content/holoaudio-may-level-3-da-processor-measurements). In fact, it measures worse.
> 
> Both the MSB and dCS dacs measure worse than DAVE.


I have no interest in measurements.  Only what I hear and my budget do define my audio investments.


RustyGates said:


> Given how freaking laughable the prices are...


See, this really depends on your point of view.  The DAVE is laughably overpriced from the point of view of a third world blue collar worker.




RustyGates said:


> Cheers to the rich who have all the gear and no idea.


It could be psychologically comforting to believe that all rich people have no idea but I'm afraid that's not the case.


----------



## BallisticGT3

alxw0w said:


> Please report back when you get DC4.
> For now I don't want to even think about buying external power supply for the Dave, but oh my god I know that at some point this thought of getting Dave to being more Dave is going to kill me.


I've just taken the plunge and purchased a DC4 to go with my Dave. It's something that I've been considering for a while after reading the rave reviews on here, but I wasn't prepared to spend that amount of money without making the comparison first - fortunately Triode User very kindly helped me out.

I don't know if I contacted Sean Jacobs at a quite time but I received my DC4 within a week (this is in the UK).

As to what it sounds like, in my system IMO it complements the Dave very well. I would say that the Dave had been running at 70% of its full potential and adding the DC4 has added that extra 30% and really makes it fly. Areas where I can hear improvements are more detail, better sound stage and dynamics, improved base, vocals and instrument textures. Just when I thought I had reached the end game and things couldn't get any better, something comes along that raises the bar yet again.

To conclude, it's an upgrade that I can highly recommend to all Dave users. Of course YMMV.


----------



## burbster

BallisticGT3 said:


> I've just taken the plunge and purchased a DC4 to go with my Dave. It's something that I've been considering for a while after reading the rave reviews on here, but I wasn't prepared to spend that amount of money without making the comparison first - fortunately Triode User very kindly helped me out.
> 
> I don't know if I contacted Sean Jacobs at a quite time but I received my DC4 within a week (this is in the UK).
> 
> ...


thanks, I can’t wait now! Can I ask how long you have had it, it seems it needs 4 - 6 weeks to fully burn in? Was that your experience?


----------



## HeeBroG

BallisticGT3 said:


> I've just taken the plunge and purchased a DC4 to go with my Dave. It's something that I've been considering for a while after reading the rave reviews on here, but I wasn't prepared to spend that amount of money without making the comparison first - fortunately Triode User very kindly helped me out.
> 
> I don't know if I contacted Sean Jacobs at a quite time but I received my DC4 within a week (this is in the UK).
> 
> ...


Standard or ARC6?


----------



## BallisticGT3

It's a standard Dave version of the DC4. The ARC6 is still in development and I will have the option to upgrade to ARC6 spec. as and when it becomes available (I don't think its to far away).
It had been burning-in for 24h before I first tried it. I've been told the full burn-in process can take up to 4-6 weeks and that then it should sound even better!


----------



## Triode User

BallisticGT3 said:


> I've just taken the plunge and purchased a DC4 to go with my Dave. It's something that I've been considering for a while after reading the rave reviews on here, but I wasn't prepared to spend that amount of money without making the comparison first - fortunately Triode User very kindly helped me out.



Paul, it was great to see you again and I am very happy for any other Dave owners to invite themselves to hear my DC4. If nothing else it is a good opportunity to have a chat about hifi and to put the world to rights whilst discovering new tracks and albums!

I had to take a leap of faith when I bought my DC4 but I would agree with you about the percentage uplift by adding the DC4.


----------



## Sampajanna

I’ll add my name to the +30% list! The second DC4 for Mscaler is more like 5%


----------



## alxw0w

Has anybody ever tried driving Susvara directly from the Dave ?
Any thoughts ?


----------



## tommir

I'm afraid Dave doesn't have enough power to drive Susvara. That's what I was told by distributor who sent me Dave for tests.


----------



## alxw0w (Aug 31, 2021)

That's common thing that is always told all over the internet.
On the other hand some people (for example in Susvara thread) claims that it is a marvelous combo. But from the other side a lot of the folks says that you need 100wat+ speaker amp to drive them.... - that's to me sounds like a complete nonsense.
Anyway
Doing "math" it seems like Dave would drive Susvara to 110-112db before it would clip - so that's very very/extremely loud.
When most of my listening occurs (80-90db - mostly around 80) Dave should be more than fine driving Susvara with a lot of db headroom.

I suppose I'll have to somehow go to the dealer with the Dave and finds that out myself.


----------



## Donnyhifi

The Susvara driven by DAVE's headphone out sounds inadequately powered(primarily a reduction of soundstage, dynamics and bass), my Focal Clear sounds better by a fair margin to be honest. 

For me personally the Susvara sounds the best driven by my Sony TA-A1ES integrated amplifier(connected to the binding posts with spade connectors) which now has me searching for an amplifier with Speaker A and B outputs in order to drive the Susvara and a pair of speakers from the same unit.


----------



## Currawong

burbster said:


> There is a you tube review with a direct comparison to a Dave mscaler. In that one, reviewer concludes Dave combo not even close to Holo.


That reviewer, GoldenOne, was more moved by the presentation of the May as I recall, the sound bringing him to tears. R2R DACs can have that effect. But I'd be careful about what you state someone said exactly, as well as considering what music he was listening to.



alxw0w said:


> On the other hand some people (for example in Susvara thread) claims that it is a marvelous combo. But from the other side a lot of the folks says that you need 100wat+ speaker amp to drive them.... - that's to me sounds like a complete nonsense.


Likely depends a lot on listening level. Even though I've tried to hammer it into people for years, people still don't realise the importance of it. 

I agree with the other impressions though, that the DAVE cannot deliver the dynamics with the Susvaras that a proper amp for them can, be it a speaker amp or the TT2.

Now if there was a DAVE with the TT2 output power...


----------



## burbster (Aug 31, 2021)

Currawong said:


> That reviewer, GoldenOne, was more moved by the presentation of the May as I recall, the sound bringing him to tears. R2R DACs can have that effect. But I'd be careful about what you state someone said exactly, as well as considering what music he was listening to.
> 
> 
> Likely depends a lot on listening level. Even though I've tried to hammer it into people for years, people still don't realise the importance of it.
> ...


Point taken, but I am pretty sure his actual words were 'It is not even that close..' may have been in part 2 of the review.


----------



## gancanjam (Aug 31, 2021)

alxw0w said:


> Has anybody ever tried driving Susvara directly from the Dave ?
> Any thoughts ?



I tried few HPs including 1266 with Dave, let's take the case of an easier to drive HP Utopia with Dave.  It is only "adequate" and "audible" but nothing more than that. You can still observe the positive traits of Dave such as less digital & natural, neutral and coherence. But there will not be wow effect, lacks the energy, layering, bass slams and instrument dynamics when comparing it against a good external amp pairing

I tried Utopia with TT2 as AIO, it is bit more powerful than Dave but I personally did not liked the SS as it was thin, lesser bass, analytical and bright.  TT2 can be good as a DAC though.

I am sure Dave AIO can make Susvara audible but am afraid there will be enough juice. Moral of the story ... Pair Chord units with an amp to make the most of it


----------



## alxw0w

gancanjam said:


> I tried few HPs including 1266 with Dave, let's take the case of an easier to drive HP Utopia with Dave.  It is only "adequate" and "audible" but nothing more than that. You can still observe the positive traits of Dave such as less digital & natural, neutral and coherence. But there will not be wow effect, lacks the energy, layering, bass slams and instrument dynamics when comparing it against a good external amp pairing
> 
> I tried Utopia with TT2 as AIO, it is bit more powerful than Dave but I personally did not liked the SS as it was thin, analytical and bright. I am sure TT2 can be good as a DAC though.
> 
> I am sure Dave AIO can make Susvara audible but am afraid there will be enough juice. Moral of the story ... Pair Chord units with an amp


I'm not sure if I understand you correctly.
You are basically saying that Dave is just barely able to drive Utopia ?


----------



## DJJEZ (Aug 31, 2021)

gancanjam said:


> I tried few HPs including 1266 with Dave, let's take the case of an easier to drive HP Utopia with Dave.  It is only "adequate" and "audible" but nothing more than that. You can still observe the positive traits of Dave such as less digital & natural, neutral and coherence. But there will not be wow effect, lacks the energy, layering, bass slams and instrument dynamics when comparing it against a good external amp pairing
> 
> *I tried Utopia with TT2 as AIO, it is bit more powerful than Dave but I personally did not liked the SS as it was thin, lesser bass, analytical and bright. I am sure TT2 can be good as a DAC though.*
> 
> I am sure Dave AIO can make Susvara audible but am afraid there will be enough juice. Moral of the story ... Pair Chord units with an amp to make the most of it


TT2 was thin, lesser bass, analytical and bright?


----------



## gancanjam

DJJEZ said:


> TT2 was thin, lesser bass, analytical and bright?



That was my impression when used TT2 as AIO with Utopia, I compared this with other powerful amps which brought more body & bass to the songs


----------



## Progisus

gancanjam said:


> That was my impression when used TT2 as AIO with Utopia, I compared this with other powerful amps which brought more body & bass to the songs


Something must have been amiss with your source. TT2 drives Utopia to perfection.


----------



## gancanjam (Aug 31, 2021)

alxw0w said:


> I'm not sure if I understand you correctly.
> You are basically saying that Dave is just barely able to drive Utopia ?



Dave was able to drive Utopia but when compared with another amplifier in the mix, Dave as AIO was trailing  in dynamics, energy, slams, layering. I know many folks are very  happy with Dave & Utopia combo or  TT2 & Utopia combo so I was "comparatively" speaking 

But to your question of Susvara which is a much harder HP to drive with Dave as AIO, I think it will not be able to drive properly.


----------



## alxw0w

I should stick with IEMs I guess...   
Sorry I'm done.


----------



## Slim1970

gancanjam said:


> I tried few HPs including 1266 with Dave, let's take the case of an easier to drive HP Utopia with Dave.  It is only "adequate" and "audible" but nothing more than that. You can still observe the positive traits of Dave such as less digital & natural, neutral and coherence. But there will not be wow effect, lacks the energy, layering, bass slams and instrument dynamics when comparing it against a good external amp pairing
> 
> I tried Utopia with TT2 as AIO, it is bit more powerful than Dave but I personally did not liked the SS as it was thin, lesser bass, analytical and bright.  TT2 can be good as a DAC though.
> 
> I am sure Dave AIO can make Susvara audible but am afraid there will be enough juice. Moral of the story ... Pair Chord units with an amp to make the most of it


I used my TT2 mainly in DAC mode when I had it. The Dave has a much better headphone output in compAlison. I find myself using the Dave’s headphone output a lot more than I ever did the TT2’s.

I agree with what you said about the Dave with harder to drive headphones. It lacks the drive of a good external amp. The trade off is you lose the Dave’s transparency and resolve when using an external amp.


----------



## thePhones

alxw0w said:


> I'm not sure if I understand you correctly.
> You are basically saying that Dave is just barely able to drive Utopia ?


My Utopias may slam a bit too hard sometimes with Dave but definitely, 100%, not underpowered.


----------



## tommir

alxw0w said:


> I should stick with IEMs I guess...
> Sorry I'm done.


Currently I use LCD-XC because sold all other headphones to buy Dave and Mscaler   Dave has more than enough power to drive them. I also tried to drive 1266 but they weren't listenable at all. I will test Utopia next week, we'll see


----------



## genefruit (Aug 31, 2021)

I'll serve as the dissenting opinion regarding the conventional wisdom on the DAVE and TC1266 combination.  I've been listening for the last month, coming from TT2 and I'm happy with the upgrade and I'm not missing the power.  Perhaps I listen at too low of a level and listen to a bunch of overprocessed and compressed crap, but depth, width, and the controversial/mythical "macrodynamics" are present.  That said, I have HPA4, CFA3, and Stellaris all coming before the end of the year.  Should be a fun shootout to see what stays and goes.


----------



## sm60

Sampajanna said:


> I’ll add my name to the +30% list! The second DC4 for Mscaler is more like 5%


Hmmm…. How about adding more DC4s to your streaming server, since obviously the same logic would apply there as well (there’s the Innuos Statement, which has a DC4 like external power supply). Another DC4 for the external power supply for your RAID server that stores the music. One for the Ethernet router over which the bits travel from the cloud to your home. All these DC4s could make Sean a very rich man!


----------



## MarkusBarkus

I converted my toaster to DC so I could add another DC4. I love 'em and don't knock it 'til you've tried my toast. Darker background, crunchier crunch. But really...the DC4 on Dave is "flippy baby," as Elvis would have said...


----------



## number1sixerfan (Aug 31, 2021)

Slim1970 said:


> I used my TT2 mainly in DAC mode when I had it. The Dave has a much better headphone output in compAlison. I find myself using the Dave’s headphone output a lot more than I ever did the TT2’s.
> 
> I agree with what you said about the Dave with harder to drive headphones. It lacks the drive of a good external amp. The trade off is you lose the Dave’s transparency and resolve when using an external amp.



As someone that has done pretty extensive A/B testing with the Dave headphone out, I would disagree highly on the last point if using a high quality, transparent amp--but I'm only talking real world results. Also, I think a simple litmus test here is if the difference was drastic in real life, I think people like myself would simply pursue other DACs that don't have the same 'issue' (I know the defacto argument is everyone simply prefers 'color', but that can be easily broken down/refuted). But in either case, it's really a moot point IF* you want to use the best headphones available.

I can't fathom paying $7k (or whatever the going price is) for a DAC, one seen as one of the absolute best, and not pairing it with a headphone of the same caliber. So focusing on edge cases like the Utopia (which still, is a really good headphone in it's own right) and the few headphones that do pair well, seems a bit frivolous. All of the best headphones require an external amp, the TC, the Susvara, the Sr1a, and the list goes on and on and on.

All of that said, for the sake of the last few pages.. confirming, imho of course, that the Utopia and VC work excellent with the Dave headphone out, and that the TC and Susvara do not--you simply leave too much performance on the table with the latter two given their cost.


----------



## jlbrach

alxw0w said:


> Has anybody ever tried driving Susvara directly from the Dave ?
> Any thoughts ?


doesnt work, I have tried it for giggles...the dave is great at driving efficient HP's....the susvara is out of its range


----------



## jlbrach

gancanjam said:


> I tried few HPs including 1266 with Dave, let's take the case of an easier to drive HP Utopia with Dave.  It is only "adequate" and "audible" but nothing more than that. You can still observe the positive traits of Dave such as less digital & natural, neutral and coherence. But there will not be wow effect, lacks the energy, layering, bass slams and instrument dynamics when comparing it against a good external amp pairing
> 
> I tried Utopia with TT2 as AIO, it is bit more powerful than Dave but I personally did not liked the SS as it was thin, lesser bass, analytical and bright.  TT2 can be good as a DAC though.
> 
> I am sure Dave AIO can make Susvara audible but am afraid there will be enough juice. Moral of the story ... Pair Chord units with an amp to make the most of it


I disagree, the dave drives the utopia or lcd-4z and a new addition the solitaire P very well


----------



## Currawong

It seems to be a synergy thing from the experimentation I've done. What is obviously missing here is discussion of specific music. 

I didn't like the Utopias with the DAVE most of the time I tried them. The first time I tried the Final D8000 Pro I wasn't either. I decided to change power cords, and that seemed to change something to improve my impressions, and I was happy afterwards. It was not the answer I wanted to find!

I still feel that using even the best amps I have here (with the best cables I have) lose a bit of detail vs. direct from the DAVE. This listening with the best recordings I've found, of which Julia Fisher - Sarasate is probably at the top of the list. Other than that, the best experience I'd had with it was MScaler → DAVE → Master 10 → LCD-R.


----------



## gancanjam

Seems we all had our own experience with Dave here  wow..  with some preferring Dave as AIO for Utopia,  some preferring TT2 as AIO for Utopia, some preferring Dave + Amp for Utopia, some stating power hungry HPs like Abyss or Susvara cannot be driven by Chord AIOs, someone says Abyss can be driven by AIOs without the need of any powerful amp..

We all need to respect all the opinions and sometimes it is relative to what you are comparing also, say if someone states Dave can drive HE6 HP then did that person compared it with using Dave with a $5000 capable amplifier before concluding Dave AIO is the best combo? may be yes ..may be no ...we dont know that

This is a  true "YMMV" conversation my friends  good to see multiple perspectives and as long as the combo works for us, we should all be happy with the kind of music we listen to.

BTW on my DAC hunt, I am trying to zero in on  Rockna wavelight (few said it has lesser Bass slam so skeptical) , Rockna wavedream, Holo May(Few said it is more of hype ) , Dave. Only Dave/TT2 I have borrowed and listened to extensively so hope to find an answer soon on my DAC hunt. Cheers !


----------



## genefruit

Currawong said:


> I still feel that using even the best amps I have here (with the best cables I have) lose a bit of detail vs. direct from the DAVE. This listening with the best recordings I've found, of which Julia Fisher - Sarasate is probably at the top of the list.


Listening to this right now and it's amazing.  Thanks for the reference.


----------



## iDesign (Aug 31, 2021)

For perspective, how many of these inefficient flagship headphones now in question were released well after the DAVE was designed? It’s a new market trend and back then the HD 800 and HE1000 were the best you could do. It’s not like Rob Watts didn’t include plenty of outputs— find the amplifier you like and move on.


----------



## Sampajanna (Aug 31, 2021)

sm60 said:


> Hmmm…. How about adding more DC4s to your streaming server, since obviously the same logic would apply there as well (there’s the Innuos Statement, which has a DC4 like external power supply). Another DC4 for the external power supply for your RAID server that stores the music. One for the Ethernet router over which the bits travel from the cloud to your home. All these DC4s could make Sean a very rich man!


I do hv a Statement. It also is great. happy with it. And properly applied, the time & energy you spend trolling could make you a rich man!


----------



## jlbrach

iDesign said:


> For perspective, how many of these inefficient flagship headphones now in question were released well after the DAVE was designed? It’s a new market trend and back then the HD 800 and HE1000 were the best you could do. It’s not like Rob Watts didn’t include plenty of outputs— find the amplifier you like and move on.


the lcd-4 was out there,the susvara and original abyss came at about the same time...the HE6


----------



## adrianm

Well i'm sure this will become a new favorite among Dave users , and no need for an external amp  

https://www.headfonia.com/review-meze-audio-empyrean-elite/


----------



## alxw0w

adrianm said:


> Well i'm sure this will become a new favorite among Dave users , and no need for an external amp
> 
> https://www.headfonia.com/review-meze-audio-empyrean-elite/


Interesting I hope it won't be muddy in the lower mid and mid bass region as the OG one.


----------



## adrianm

alxw0w said:


> Interesting I hope it won't be muddy in the lower mid and mid bass region as the OG one.


From initial reviews it seems to be better than the OG in every way, close to HE1000se in speed and highs, but with more bass impact and a fuller sound. Sounds like a good sweet spot. I don't see it dethroning Susvara or 1266, but i'm sure a lot of people would trade the "extra <insert stuff here>"  those have for their sound signature and comfort, plus no need for an amp.


----------



## tommir

From the review sounds almost perfect for me (just not sure about treble) but it's only review. Need to wait for some demo. This is important for me to drive headphones directly from Dave. Tried to use some amps but always realised loosing something in the sound.


----------



## thePhones

adrianm said:


> Well i'm sure this will become a new favorite among Dave users , and no need for an external amp
> 
> https://www.headfonia.com/review-meze-audio-empyrean-elite/


It has to be a lot sharper than the original for me. When I listen to Indian instruments for example I want the real sharp sound it gives when they pluck the strings. The reviewer talks again about soft highs. I need dynamic highs, even the Utopia is just about right, while Ultrasones are a bit too sharp sometimes. But I really like to give them a listen when I have the chance because I will never destroy the ultimate transparency the Dave gives😍
Every headphone that is not correctly driven by Dave alone is (sadly) out!


----------



## alxw0w

thePhones said:


> It has to be a lot sharper than the original for me. When I listen to Indian instruments for example I want the real sharp sound it gives when they pluck the strings. The reviewer talks again about soft highs. I need dynamic highs, even the Utopia is just about right, while Ultrasones are a bit too sharp sometimes. But I really like to give them a listen when I have the chance because I will never destroy the ultimate transparency the Dave gives😍
> Every headphone that is not correctly driven by Dave alone is (sadly) out!


Yup transients response on Meze was one of the biggest let downs - at least to me.
At the beginning I like it - it was smooth. But after some time the leading edge for example of string instruments were unacceptable (together with other things)


----------



## gancanjam

HE1000 SE is another capable and very easy to drive HP..Dave AIO should do a good job with that , have extended highs without the shrills


----------



## adrianm

thePhones said:


> because I will never destroy the ultimate transparency the Dave gives😍
> Every headphone that is not correctly driven by Dave alone is (sadly) out!


Agreed, and love that you're also using Lavricables :X . My favourite headphone with Dave is the Utopia, even if the He1000 SE is a lot faster and images better. I'm hoping the Stealth can at least come close to their speed and imaging.


----------



## thePhones

adrianm said:


> love that you're also using Lavricables


Yes I am really happy with them, they make a huge difference especially with Dave. Wrote a review about them:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lavricables-impressions-discussion-thread.955358/post-16504460


----------



## adrianm

thePhones said:


> Yes I am really happy with them, they make a huge difference especially with Dave. Wrote a review about them:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lavricables-impressions-discussion-thread.955358/post-16504460


Same here


----------



## chrishunt

Some say it's a big DAC, but I like to think of it as a tiny submarine.


----------



## ufospls2

chrishunt said:


> Some say it's a big DAC, but I like to think of it as a tiny submarine.



Sweet picture dude : )


----------



## Slim1970

ufospls2 said:


> Sweet picture dude : )


No kidding, that’s a great shot!


----------



## Psilonaught

Hi all,

I'm strongly considering buying a Dave plus m scaler, and was wondering if anyone here had directly comparable the chord to an Aqua formula hdx? The later receives huge praise for being extremely natural. 

Thanks


----------



## musickid (Sep 8, 2021)

With dave and oppo pm1 planar this sounds stunning on a sunny afternoon as i look out of the window watching the trees sway in the breeze. Japanese composer Joe Hisaishi. 48kHz 24 bit via Qobuz Roon. Very cinematic wide sound through dave. Only dave does this wide cinematic chamber like effect so well IMHO. I didn't feel it with the other chord dacs.


----------



## VladYR

Has anyone here had any experience with Audioquest‘s Niagara line of power conditioners? I’ve read some good reviews but some first hand accounts from owners would be appreciated.


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> Has anyone here had any experience with Audioquest‘s Niagara line of power conditioners? I’ve read some good reviews but some first hand accounts from owners would be appreciated.


I've heard good stuff, but i've only used Isotek myself. Both Sirius, and now Aquarius do wonders for Dave . "blacker background, deeper ,tighter bass, better highs, better depth"... all that nonsense. It's true. 
   After the move to the new place i'll set up a separate circuit for Dave, and i'll evaluate the differences it makes then, but if my Aquarius is still making such a huge difference, i'll probably get Sigmas. 
   If i were to do it again, i'd get the Aquarius even before the M-scaler. And i did get the Sirius ahead of the M-scaler (a lot less money though). I haven't heard even a fraction of the difference when replacing Dave's power cable with ones up to 5k. Using a 150 euro one right now and found no reason to upgrade. The filter is another story though...


----------



## Slim1970

VladYR said:


> Has anyone here had any experience with Audioquest‘s Niagara line of power conditioners? I’ve read some good reviews but some first hand accounts from owners would be appreciated.


I have my Dave connected to a Richard Gray’s Power Co. RGPC600S. I hear good things about the Audioquest though.


----------



## burbster

VladYR said:


> Has anyone here had any experience with Audioquest‘s Niagara line of power conditioners? I’ve read some good reviews but some first hand accounts from owners would be appreciated.


Yes I have had the 1000 (now replaced by the 1200 I think) plus I now own the 5000. I home demoed a few other brands in similar price brackets, I rate the whole Niagara range very highly along with the AQ power leads.


----------



## Sampajanna

I have an Everest 8000. It is epic. Really amazing! Highly recommended. If you do get one, though, the Sigma or omega XC cable is really a must. IMO they should include the Sigma model....


----------



## MarkusBarkus

I had some digital gear plugged into the 1000 for a while. I thought it was useful to offer outlet options for multiple components, fed by a dedicated circuit.

I moved the 1000 into the network closet and all related components are plugged into the 1000, fed by a separate dedicated circuit, on the opposite phase from all audio gear. 

My only ding on the 1000 is with the form factor: that semi-round design with outlets on top I found to be unsightly and unstable. Perhaps AQ agrees, as the 1200 product plugs are horizontal to the base, as I recall.

Not a rousing review to change your life, perhaps, but I think the 1000 works as intended.

Satisfaction will depend on your use-case, needs, and power challenges, IMO.


----------



## VladYR

I borrowed the 1200 for a week and liked the differences that it offered. They were quite noticeable. I might get it next month. My space is somewhat limited so it would be a good fit. I’m curious what the higher models may be able to do.


----------



## audio_1

VladYR said:


> Has anyone here had any experience with Audioquest‘s Niagara line of power conditioners? I’ve read some good reviews but some first hand accounts from owners would be appreciated.


I have an Audioquest Niagara 7000 and 4 Hurricane power cables. One power cable supplies the 7000, two the Audionet Heisenberg power amps and the last one the Dave. Before I had the 7000, I had an RSA Dmitri. Dave really requires power conditioning imho. Power conditioning improves the sound and makes Dave sound much more natural and musical. Good grounding is important. I believe that a low impedance ground is essential. The ground connection should have the same or greater cross sectional area than the phase connections, 3.3 mm2 or 12 awg with the Hurricanes.

The big question now is if a DC4 power supply for the Dave would improve the sound further?


----------



## 432789

Dave vs topping?


----------



## Sampajanna

audio_1 said:


> I have an Audioquest Niagara 7000 and 4 Hurricane power cables. One power cable supplies the 7000, two the Audionet Heisenberg power amps and the last one the Dave. Before I had the 7000, I had an RSA Dmitri. Dave really requires power conditioning imho. Power conditioning improves the sound and makes Dave sound much more natural and musical. Good grounding is important. I believe that a low impedance ground is essential. The ground connection should have the same or greater cross sectional area than the phase connections, 3.3 mm2 or 12 awg with the Hurricanes.
> 
> The big question now is if a DC4 power supply for the Dave would improve the sound further?


The better the system, the more you will hear the DC4. Highly recommended for you


----------



## TheMiddleSky

thebrunx said:


> Dave vs topping?


D90SE is my most recommend DAC in the market now when we consider the price/performance ratio. Still way below Dave when we talk about lifelike quality in sound though.


----------



## Triode User (Sep 11, 2021)

audio_1 said:


> I have an Audioquest Niagara 7000 and 4 Hurricane power cables. One power cable supplies the 7000, two the Audionet Heisenberg power amps and the last one the Dave. Before I had the 7000, I had an RSA Dmitri. Dave really requires power conditioning imho. Power conditioning improves the sound and makes Dave sound much more natural and musical. Good grounding is important. I believe that a low impedance ground is essential. The ground connection should have the same or greater cross sectional area than the phase connections, 3.3 mm2 or 12 awg with the Hurricanes.
> 
> The big question now is if a DC4 power supply for the Dave would improve the sound further?


Looking at your equipment list I would suggest the cheapest large sound quality improvement would be to stop listening via Roon. 😜

After that for sure a DC4 is a massive leap forward but even then there is now better available.

It is called the Sean Jacobs ARC6. 🤣

By the way i was quizzed by someone today about whether I was really sure about Roon and so I reloaded it again onto my K50 this morning instead of Squeeze and Squeezelite. After five minutes I uninstalled Roon and will leave it alone for another year or until my memory fades again and once more I have to try it thinking it can’t be that bad!


----------



## Slim1970

Triode User said:


> Looking at your equipment list I would suggest the cheapest large sound quality improvement would be to stop listening via Roon. 😜
> 
> After that for sure a DC4 is a massive leap forward but even then there is now better available.
> 
> ...


Wow, I've only heard good things about Roon. What is it that you don't like?


----------



## Triode User (Sep 11, 2021)

Slim1970 said:


> Wow, I've only heard good things about Roon. What is it that you don't like?


The sound quality. I love the user interface though.

ps. I have I lifetime subscription but had not used it for perhaps a year so I gave it another go this morning to put it against the Squeeze server and Squeezelite player I am using at the moment on my K50. Compared to those Roon blurred the bass and lower mid and added a smearing to the whole sound. I uninstalled Roon and went back again to how I had it before.


----------



## gnomen

Triode User said:


> The sound quality. I love the user interface though.
> 
> ps. I have I lifetime subscription but had not used it for perhaps a year so I gave it another go this morning to put it against the Squeeze server and Squeezelite player I am using at the moment on my K50. Compared to those Roon blurred the bass and lower mid and added a smearing to the whole sound. I uninstalled Roon and went back again to how I had it before.


That is really weird, Nick.  I use Roon on two systems, both with high quality equipment.  Coming from Audirvana and Pure Music it was a clear improvement.  And I don't think I am alone in rating it's sound quality very highly.  I wonder if there is something about your implementation or configuration which is affecting it?  Maybe even ask Roon themselves - they seem the kind of guys who would want to bottom it out with you.  At least, it would be good to give them your feedback.

Cheers


----------



## Ciggavelli

gnomen said:


> That is really weird, Nick.  I use Roon on two systems, both with high quality equipment.  Coming from Audirvana and Pure Music it was a clear improvement.  And I don't think I am alone in rating it's sound quality very highly.  I wonder if there is something about your implementation or configuration which is affecting it?  Maybe even ask Roon themselves - they seem the kind of guys who would want to bottom it out with you.  At least, it would be good to give them your feedback.
> 
> Cheers


I too was very skeptical of this.  I also have the K50.  I switched from a Roon player to a Squeezelite player (still using Roon as a server), and there is definitely a noticeable improvement using Squeezelite.  It makes no logical sense, but still, it sounds better somehow 🤷‍♂️


----------



## BassicScience

The essential function of Roon is to send audio data from a computing device to a DAC. If it sounds worse or even different than some other program with that same function, then either there is a configuration issue or one or the other program is preprocessing the data before sending it to the DAC. This is engineering, not hocus-pocus.

Based on my own experience of the last year or so, Roon sounds fantastic and has the best user interface I know of.


----------



## Ciggavelli

BassicScience said:


> The essential function of Roon is to send audio data from a computing device to a DAC. If it sounds worse or even different than some other program with that same function, then either there is a configuration issue or one or the other program is preprocessing the data before sending it to the DAC. This is engineering, not hocus-pocus.
> 
> Based on my own experience of the last year or so, Roon sounds fantastic and has the best user interface I know of.


Like I said, it makes no logical sense, and I thought it was nonsense before I actually tried it.  If you have the option with your setup, give it a try and see for yourself


----------



## edwardsean

BassicScience said:


> The essential function of Roon is to send audio data from a computing device to a DAC. If it sounds worse or even different than some other program with that same function, then either there is a configuration issue or one or the other program is preprocessing the data before sending it to the DAC. This is engineering, not hocus-pocus.



Wait, what? You mean I wasted 500USD for the shaman blessing after my cable was cryogenically treated and quantum tunneled?

You know that the engineers themselves, who design, build, and measure these devices, have not nailed down every variable of what makes their own machines sound better or worse. Science is a perpetual process of discovery, the most exciting of which stupefy logic, no?


----------



## adrianm

Has anyone here tried driving Susvara out of Dave? Or out of a Benchmark AHB2 from Dave?


----------



## alxw0w (Sep 11, 2021)

Yes it doesn't make any sense. But I can also confirm that LMS sounded different (I think better but still have a bit mixed feelings) than Roon.
I was using same hardware - just different software and made comparisons.
And my findings were the same as @Triode User reported.
I have no idea why but there was a very noticeable change. LMS sounded more like a CD transport (Cyrus one - don't remember exact model).

My guess is that roon is modifying bitstream in someway and it's not real bit perfect. But who knows...
I even tried roon to squeeze endpoint streaming and the result was pretty much the same. It still sounded like a roon. So there is something happening in the roon core.


----------



## Ciggavelli

adrianm said:


> Has anyone here tried driving Susvara out of Dave? Or out of a Benchmark AHB2 from Dave?


I have outta a DAVE. You absolutely can not drive the Susvaras adequately at all with a DAVE


----------



## sm60

BassicScience said:


> The essential function of Roon is to send audio data from a computing device to a DAC. If it sounds worse or even different than some other program with that same function, then either there is a configuration issue or one or the other program is preprocessing the data before sending it to the DAC. This is engineering, not hocus-pocus.
> 
> Based on my own experience of the last year or so, Roon sounds fantastic and has the best user interface I know of.


Like all things digital, this oversimplifies the processing under the hood. Roon does a lot of signal processing, e,g., in my case it transcribes DSD to 32-bit 384khz PCM before feeding it to the M-scaler. I suppose I could feed the M-scaler raw DSD, but that has not worked reliably for me.  I have found that just switching on the equalizer in Roon, without changing any frequency settings, greatly deteriorates the signal quality. For many years before I got Roon, I used a Squeeze  server. But I am so used to the Roon interface that I cannot go back to the old clunky Squeeze interface, leaving aside sound quality. But I would never characterize Roon as transparent. My go-to yardstick for digital remains my massive CEC-TL0 belt driven two box CD transport into the M-scaler. That beats Roon DSP hands down. But of course the great strength of Roon is the huge amount of source material available to stream.  Still, I have many thousands of red book CDs bought over 30 years of patient collecting and I am never going to sell my CDs. My first CD, bought in 1985, still plays back perfectly. My first hard drive? Don’t even go there! Roon may die tomorrow, as might Qobuz or Tidal. But my physical optical media will live on, and outlast me. No need for a network to play back redbook CDs.


----------



## saudio7

adrianm said:


> Has anyone here tried driving Susvara out of Dave? Or out of a Benchmark AHB2 from Dave?


Yes, it will be loud enough, but you will not get the same as from external amp, the biggest loss will be in bas, missing in quality and quantity.


----------



## gancanjam

Ciggavelli said:


> I have outta a DAVE. You absolutely can not drive the Susvaras adequately at all with a DAVE



+1


----------



## DJJEZ

adrianm said:


> Has anyone here tried driving Susvara out of Dave? Or out of a Benchmark AHB2 from Dave?


I have tried the susvara out of the DAVE. Don't waste your time. It can't drive it lol


----------



## adrianm

DJJEZ said:


> I have tried the susvara out of the DAVE. Don't waste your time. It can't drive it lol


Hence the AHB2 question


----------



## jlbrach

one of the reasons I have become such a fan of the solitaire P HP's is how incredibly well the dave can drive them...I have listened out of my external amps and out of the dave itself and find the dave as good or better...plus it is a fantastic HP


----------



## DJJEZ

adrianm said:


> Hence the AHB2 question


The AHB2 can drive the susvara extremely well


----------



## muski (Sep 11, 2021)

Triode User said:


> Roon blurred the bass and lower mid and added a smearing to the whole sound


Yes, that’s exactly how I feel about Roon vs LMS/Squeezelite. I still use Roon for casual listening, but always LMS /Squeezelite for critical listening. I don’t understand why either, but I’d wager that Roon is mangling some bits somewhere along the way.

My sonicTransporter i9 optical + opticalRendu combination makes switching between them very easy. The SonicTransporter can run both LMS & Roon server simultaneously, and the opticalRendu can be swapped from one to the other with a single click. While I’ve never heard the K50 or Statement, with the Sonore’s optical isolation and the Innuos Phoenix Net and Phoenix USB in my chain, I’m guessing it’s a decent (and nerdy) approximation.


----------



## BassicScience

sm60 said:


> Like all things digital, this oversimplifies the processing under the hood. Roon does a lot of signal processing, e,g., in my case it transcribes DSD to 32-bit 384khz PCM before feeding it to the M-scaler. I suppose I could feed the M-scaler raw DSD, but that has not worked reliably for me.  I have found that just switching on the equalizer in Roon, without changing any frequency settings, greatly deteriorates the signal quality. For many years before I got Roon, I used a Squeeze  server. But I am so used to the Roon interface that I cannot go back to the old clunky Squeeze interface, leaving aside sound quality. But I would never characterize Roon as transparent. My go-to yardstick for digital remains my massive CEC-TL0 belt driven two box CD transport into the M-scaler. That beats Roon DSP hands down. But of course the great strength of Roon is the huge amount of source material available to stream.  Still, I have many thousands of red book CDs bought over 30 years of patient collecting and I am never going to sell my CDs. My first CD, bought in 1985, still plays back perfectly. My first hard drive? Don’t even go there! Roon may die tomorrow, as might Qobuz or Tidal. But my physical optical media will live on, and outlast me. No need for a network to play back redbook CDs.


My response did not "oversimplify the processing under the hood" given I said that if streaming front ends sound different on the same machine/interface, then it comes down to either configuration settings OR *different processing done within the programs*. I run Roon core on a silent PC that I built myself. It uses the Windows 10 ASIO interface to avoid any Windows data processing. I don't use the Roon equalizer or upsampling. DSD is formatted into DoP, a simple wrapper with no change to the actual data.

As such, I have no need to try any other streaming programs, because Roon is currently doing exactly what I want, namely sending music files to my DAC in a bit-perfect manner. FWIW, if I stream local files using JRiver or cloud files from the Tidal UI directly, I don't detect any change in the quality of sound. *YMMV.*


----------



## Kirklandia

VladYR said:


> Has anyone here had any experience with Audioquest‘s Niagara line of power conditioners? I’ve read some good reviews but some first hand accounts from owners would be appreciated.


The 1200 quieted down the noise level. It was a night and day change because of a combination of sensitive headphones and a tube amp.


----------



## Ciggavelli

BassicScience said:


> My response did not "oversimplify the processing under the hood" given I said that if streaming front ends sound different on the same machine/interface, then it comes down to either configuration settings OR *different processing done within the programs*. I run Roon core on a silent PC that I built myself. It uses the Windows 10 ASIO interface to avoid any Windows data processing. I don't use the Roon equalizer or upsampling. DSD is formatted into DoP, a simple wrapper with no change to the actual data.
> 
> As such, I have no need to try any other streaming programs, because Roon is currently doing exactly what I want, namely sending music files to my DAC in a bit-perfect manner. FWIW, if I stream local files using JRiver or cloud files from the Tidal UI directly, I don't detect any change in the quality of sound. *YMMV.*


Transparency of your system, blah blah blah, sometimes you don’t know something else is better until you try it, blah, blah, blah

🤷‍♂️


----------



## Ards

muski said:


> Yes, that’s exactly how I feel about Roon vs LMS/Squeezelite. I still use Roon for casual listening, but always LMS /Squeezelite for critical listening. I don’t understand why either, but I’d wager that Roon is mangling some bits somewhere along the way.
> 
> My sonicTransporter i9 optical + opticalRendu combination makes switching between them very easy.


FWIW.  I don't own the sonic Transporter, but am using the opticalRendu - I have Roon configured to work with LMS clients and have the opticalRendu in Squeeze mode. Sounds much better than Roon Ready mode.  A veil is lifted...


----------



## Triode User

Ards said:


> FWIW.  I don't own the sonic Transporter, but am using the opticalRendu - I have Roon configured to work with LMS clients and have the opticalRendu in Squeeze mode. Sounds much better than Roon Ready mode.  A veil is lifted...



My comparisons had Roon Core on my K50 Server with Squeezelite Audio device output on the K50Player. This was compared to Squeeze on the K50 Server and Squeezelite on the K50 Player. This was connected to an Mscaler by USB with both and then outputting to Dave by dual BNC.

Squeeze/Squeezelite was by far the best sound quality, ie no Roon. Worst of all was Roon Core plus Roon Audio output.


----------



## alxw0w

Triode User said:


> My comparisons had Roon Core on my K50 Server with Squeezelite Audio device output on the K50Player. This was compared to Squeeze on the K50 Server and Squeezelite on the K50 Player. This was connected to an Mscaler by USB with both and then outputting to Dave by dual BNC.
> 
> Squeeze/Squeezelite was by far the best sound quality, ie no Roon. Worst of all was Roon Core plus Roon Audio output.


That's what I did. 
Currently using Roon with Squeezelite endpoint. It seems like a middle ground between going full LMS or full Roon.


----------



## Triode User

alxw0w said:


> That's what I did.
> Currently using Roon with Squeezelite endpoint. It seems like a middle ground between going full LMS or full Roon.


Agreed. I would say that is middle ground. Unfortunately I do not like the sound of the middle ground especially with albums that I know well such as Opium Moon by Opium Moon. (Try it, it is not everyones cup of tea but I love the texture and interplay of the instruments)


----------



## Roasty

All this talk of Squeezelite made me curious. Decided to try it and just managed to set it up, running from my sms200ultraneo with qobuz and tidal. Music does sound clearer and details seem easier to make out. But I do find the web UI a bit clunky and laggy.


----------



## alxw0w

Roasty said:


> All this talk of Squeezelite made me curious. Decided to try it and just managed to set it up, running from my sms200ultraneo with qobuz and tidal. Music does sound clearer and details seem easier to make out. But I do find the web UI a bit clunky and laggy.


Try adding Material Skin to your LMS. It helps a bit, but yes user experience is nowhere close to what is Roon offering.


----------



## Sampajanna (Sep 12, 2021)

I go the middle route too. I love being able to switch so easily with the Innuos 2.0 app from Innuos player to Roon + Squeeze. Takes only a few seconds. Allows search and explore in Roon, then critical playback in Innuos. Really is the best of both worlds! I couldn’t imagine life without Roon no matter SQ, since it leads me to so much new music all the time.


----------



## Triode User

alxw0w said:


> Try adding Material Skin to your LMS. It helps a bit, but yes user experience is nowhere close to what is Roon offering.


Agreed with Material Skin. That is what I use with LMS/Squeezelite on the K50.


----------



## Sampajanna

Thanks for the album tip,Nick. Really enjoying it!


----------



## Triode User

Sampajanna said:


> Thanks for the album tip,Nick. Really enjoying it!


Glad you like it. Any one of the tracks is excellent for betraying issues with smeared bass or overemphasised percussion or string instruments but often I go to ‘Gravity‘ or ‘When I see you naked I smell the earth’ as a quick reality check on sound quality. The latter of those two tracks has a really clean bass line with lots of subtle detail elsewhere in the instruments and it instantly betrays what Roon does to sound quality. Initially the Roon version sounds great because the music is so good but when you hear how it can really sound that is when problems are revealed.

I played that track to a friend on my Mscaler + ARC6 Dave (LMS/Squeeze server/player on K50 with Material Skin track selction). He has a dCS system and he couldn’t believe how much extra there is going on in the music compared to what he hears on his system.

They (Opium Moon) have a new album out called ‘Night + Day’ but I’m finding it a bit more difficult to like that


----------



## BassicScience

Ciggavelli said:


> Transparency of your system, blah blah blah, sometimes you don’t know something else is better until you try it, blah, blah, blah
> 
> 🤷‍♂️


LOL. The old "your system isn't transparent enough" chestnut. I'll put my system up against anyone's here in terms of resolution and transparency. And again, when it comes to a different program sending the same exact data to my DAC over the same interface, I don't need to try it to know how it will sound relative to Roon. If you do, that's your prerogative. Please provide complete context on how the programs were configured before asserting that X sounds better than Roon, however.


----------



## gnomen

Triode User said:


> My comparisons had Roon Core on my K50 Server with Squeezelite Audio device output on the K50Player. This was compared to Squeeze on the K50 Server and Squeezelite on the K50 Player. This was connected to an Mscaler by USB with both and then outputting to Dave by dual BNC.
> 
> Squeeze/Squeezelite was by far the best sound quality, ie no Roon. Worst of all was Roon Core plus Roon Audio output.


I still think going back to Roon with your comparison is only sensible -- and fair.  If you had a problem with Chord you would go back to them.  It's impossible for us on the forum to compare every permutation when we are using different systems to begin with.  You paid $500 for Roon's lifetime licence, why not contact them, explain your disappointment, and tell us here?  That would be more helpful and would take the discussion forward.  You have contributed some really good insights in the past including, of course, your excellent cable design.


----------



## alxw0w

Triode User said:


> Agreed. I would say that is middle ground. Unfortunately I do not like the sound of the middle ground especially with albums that I know well such as Opium Moon by Opium Moon. (Try it, it is not everyones cup of tea but I love the texture and interplay of the instruments)


Damn you... I started listening to squeeze again, and now I remember how much I missed that sound. 
So I'm going to part with Roon for some time (again)
And thanks for the album recommendation - I like it a lot it kinda reminds me Dead Can Dance music.


----------



## Triode User

gnomen said:


> I still think going back to Roon with your comparison is only sensible -- and fair.  If you had a problem with Chord you would go back to them.  It's impossible for us on the forum to compare every permutation when we are using different systems to begin with.  You paid $500 for Roon's lifetime licence, why not contact them, explain your disappointment, and tell us here?  That would be more helpful and would take the discussion forward.  You have contributed some really good insights in the past including, of course, your excellent cable design.


Hi Robert,

I hope you are well. I think you will have gathered from the responses on here that I am far from being a lone voice in my thoughts on Roon’s sound quality. See for instance alxw0w’s reponse above. I have talked to suffient numbers of people and hifi dealers for me to be happy that what I hear is an accurate reflection and assessment of Roon sound quality compared to the alternatives.

I know that other people have tacked Roon on this issue and Roon were not interested in entering into a discourse with them. I interpreted this at the time as Roon having decided that their sound quality was ‘good enough’ for it not to affect sales to their mainstream market. Indeed the sound quality is not terrible, it just isn’t as good as other alternatives.

I am not sure there is way to take the discussion forward. If people are happy with Roon and its sound then I am happy for them. Roon is after all a fantastic product probably without equal. However I am not sure I want to waste my time trying to convince Roon that they need to do something about their sound quality when I have seen their response to that when others have tried.

I suspect I have taken the thread well and truly off topic so I will just let it rest. At least I have suggested some new music which sounds great through Dave!


----------



## MarkusBarkus

Triode User said:


> Opium Moon by Opium Moon. (Try it, it is not everyones cup of tea but I love the texture and interplay of the instruments)


...if you like this interplay and style for testing, I can recommend Yaponske Kino by the Dakh Daughters, from the "Air" album. Some very interesting bass and string lines therein. Cheers...


----------



## Ciggavelli

BassicScience said:


> LOL. The old "your system isn't transparent enough" chestnut. I'll put my system up against anyone's here in terms of resolution and transparency. And again, when it comes to a different program sending the same exact data to my DAC over the same interface, I don't need to try it to know how it will sound relative to Roon. If you do, that's your prerogative. Please provide complete context on how the programs were configured before asserting that X sounds better than Roon, however.


I was just kinda joking with you, hence the "blah blah blahs."  

However, I do find it strange that you are taking the position that you don't need to try something to know how it will sound.  That's a bit odd to me.  🤷‍♂️


----------



## Ragnar-BY

I’ve also tried LMS and it sounds different with same gear and same music files. Quite obvious and easily picked up difference on presentation.

Although, I can’t really say which sound I like better. Depends on the rest of the gear. Roon was “softer” with direct DAVE. LMS was “too nervous” when I used Headtrip.

CDs are still better than both. I wonder how good Aurender is.


----------



## muski

Triode User said:


> Agreed with Material Skin. That is what I use with LMS/Squeezelite on the K50.


Don't forget there's also iPeng for an iOS interface to LMS. Not a Roon-level UI, but workable on a phone.


----------



## muski

Speaking of DAVE/M Scaler music...

Just when I thought the world didn't need another recording of the Beethoven Symphonies, I came across this. Released in July 2020, a great performance with some remarkable audio engineering. The percussion and bass sections are very forward and powerful, all presented in a very wide great soundstage. Nos 3 & 5 are esp. wonderful.

You'll want veil-less LMS playback to fully enjoy it   I'm betting a DC4 upgrade would be insane paired with this recording. Hopefully next year...

https://open.qobuz.com/album/vfgt2ve9hh4db

Enjoy,
muski


----------



## sm60

muski said:


> Speaking of DAVE/M Scaler music...
> 
> Just when I thought the world didn't need another recording of the Beethoven Symphonies, I came across this. Released in July 2020, a great performance with some remarkable audio engineering. The percussion and bass sections are very forward and powerful, all presented in a very wide great soundstage. Nos 3 & 5 are esp. wonderful.
> 
> ...


Huge fan of Jordi Savall — I have a fair number of recordings on SACD and also in my Quobuz/Roon playlist. Most recordings have a few pages of liner notes. JordI writes a PhD dissertation on each of major releases. I’m talking 100+ pages of copious notes. I have learned so much history just reading his liner note dissertations. He gives concerts each year at nearby UC Berkeley. This year he’s going to feature music from the film Tous Le Matin de Monde (this was a movie about the composer Marin Marias, who Jordi has extensively recorded).


----------



## TheHifiBear

I bought an Innuos Zenith for my mDave a couple of weeks ago and am truly loving it.

Because of some issues with my mDave and USB in from Zenith causing pops and cracks I have been using my Node 2i as Roon Endpoint and Zenith as Core and sometimes switched to Sense only using M Scaler on blue OP SR (as that does not cause issues).

This has let me listen to both Sense and Roon and I’m definitely hearing differences in the sound tonality, Sense being a lot thicker and richer, Roon being a bit thin in comparison. 
I’m still to decide which sound is most preferred.

But I have to routes to go
1. Sense and adding a PhoenixUSB
2. Roon adding a Meridian 210 as Endpoint

Do any of you use the Meridian 210 with a Zenith or similar and can tell if it’s worth it? Does it sound better than Sense?

Any advice is appreciated.

Regarding the pop-issue I am in contact with Chord about it, it’s just progressing very slow for some reason. But hopefully that gets fixed some day.


----------



## VladYR (Sep 14, 2021)

TheHifiBear said:


> I bought an Innuos Zenith for my mDave a couple of weeks ago and am truly loving it.
> 
> Because of some issues with my mDave and USB in from Zenith causing pops and cracks I have been using my Node 2i as Roon Endpoint and Zenith as Core and sometimes switched to Sense only using M Scaler on blue OP SR (as that does not cause issues).
> 
> ...


Zenith, when it works properly, is quite nice in the Dave & M Scaler ecosystem. Personally, I would steer clear of all things Meridian. They’ve been pushing that idiotic MQA format for years, which was recently exposed as totally lossy. When a firm is peddling low quality snake oil, I don’t have any confidence in their hardware. That’s besides the point that Meridian has been losing huge sums of money. That in and of itself does not bode well in terms of product longevity and long term support.

p.s.

If you’re looking to add a streamer, consider Linn Selekt DSM (preferably with the Katalyst dac) or a Naim NDX 2. Both have somewhat different sound signatures and feature sets.


----------



## TheHifiBear

VladYR said:


> Zenith, when it works properly, is quite nice in the Dave & M Scaler ecosystem. Personally, I would steer clear of all things Meridian. They’ve been pushing that idiotic MQA format for years, which was recently exposed as totally lossy. When a firm is peddling low quality snake oil, I don’t have any confidence in their hardware. That’s besides the point that Meridian has been losing huge sums of money. That in and of itself does not bode well in terms of product longevity and long term support.
> 
> p.s.
> 
> If you’re looking to add a streamer, consider Linn Selekt DSM (preferably with the Katalyst dac) or a Naim NDX 2. Both have somewhat different sound signatures and feature sets.


Thanks for the suggestion. I’m not looking for a replacement for Dave as it’s sound is exactly what I’ve been looking for for years.

Ideally I find a simple streamer product that is only that, as I’m tired of purchasing products that do more than I need.

The Meridian 210 was recommended to me by my dealer with the argument that Meridian consisted of prior Roon devolopers (or something like that), meaning Meridian knows how to integrate properly with Roon.

I agree with you on MQA, I recently switched from Tidal to Qobuz for that exact reason and actually felt that Qobuz sounded better, even for non-MQA songs.
But even though Meridian is pushing in that directing it’s the SQ that I’m pursuing. I can live with disagreeing with the company’s philosophy.


----------



## jlbrach

I am also using the zenith 3 with my dave/blu2 and love it


----------



## hifixman

Music Alchemist said:


> Has anyone been able to compare the DAVE to the Linn Klimax DSM with the new Katalyst DAC architecture?
> 
> Someone told me the Linn is the only DAC that he likes more than the DAVE and I was curious if others had heard it as well. (Only the Katalyst version.)


I have never heard Dave in person (listened a lot in sound demo online), but I did listen to katalyst dac in Linn Klimax DSM. I would say its sound so agile and fast with shining and sparking linn typical highs and more surprisingly a lot of slam and bass.


----------



## JTbbb

TheHifiBear said:


> I bought an Innuos Zenith for my mDave a couple of weeks ago and am truly loving it.
> 
> Because of some issues with my mDave and USB in from Zenith causing pops and cracks I have been using my Node 2i as Roon Endpoint and Zenith as Core and sometimes switched to Sense only using M Scaler on blue OP SR (as that does not cause issues).
> 
> ...


I also have Zenith 3 mdave Roon, operating with iPad. I have zero problems with pops and cracks. I don’t have a solution to your problems inasmuch to suggest it must be a network/cable problem. Hope you get it sorted.


----------



## adrianm

TheHifiBear said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. I’m not looking for a replacement for Dave as it’s sound is exactly what I’ve been looking for for years.
> 
> Ideally I find a simple streamer product that is only that, as I’m tired of purchasing products that do more than I need.
> 
> ...


I just got the Moon mind 2 and i highly recommend it over Naim ndx2 , Aries G1 and the usual suspects. And this is coming from the a huge streamer skeptic. I haven't heard much difference with other streamers tbh.


----------



## VladYR

It would seem that NDX2 works better with speakers and certain kinds of music.


----------



## TheHifiBear

adrianm said:


> I just got the Moon mind 2 and i highly recommend it over Naim ndx2 , Aries G1 and the usual suspects. And this is coming from the a huge streamer skeptic. I haven't heard much difference with other streamers tbh.


Thanks, I will google that device and check it out!


----------



## MaggotBrain

Phoenix and Zenith/Mscaler/DAVE is an awesome combo. Great for headphones and, in my case, powered ATC speakers.  The detail level is astounding.


----------



## TheHifiBear

It seems like no one else uses a Meridian 210, which I interpret as a bad omen.
I did order one for testing and it should arrive on Friday.

So I’ll be able to contribute a bit by writing about my impressions of it compared to Roon through Node 2i and Sense.

I updated my signature so that people can see what else is in my setup = what subjective colouring my impressions have.


----------



## griff500

MaggotBrain said:


> Phoenix and Zenith/Mscaler/DAVE is an awesome combo. Great for headphones and, in my case, powered ATC speakers.  The detail level is astounding.


Which Phoenix?


----------



## jcn3

griff500 said:


> Which Phoenix?


Innuos Phoenix


----------



## griff500

jcn3 said:


> Innuos Phoenix


I meant which Phoenix - NET or USB... Innuos Phoenix is not just one product.


----------



## jcn3

griff500 said:


> I meant which Phoenix - NET or USB... Innuos Phoenix is not just one product.



very true . . . based on his profile, it is listed under sources, so must be phoenix usb.


----------



## MaggotBrain

griff500 said:


> Which Phoenix?


The USB re clocker.  I have not taken the plunge for the Ethernet signal device PhoenixNET.


----------



## GOKYO

edwardsean said:


> To my mind, the strength of the Bartok is that it is an AIO, again, to my mind, the best AIO. So, to be sure, you can build a system around the Bartok–but not in the same way as the Dave.
> 
> What I mean is that you can add a server to Dave; you need to add a server to Dave. You can also add a server to the Bartok, but you have the dCS Network Bridge already integrated inside. The dCS engineers designed a perfectly mated server and DAC, which I would assume is internally joined better than anything you could manage externally even with a $3k USB cable. I'm not saying you can't improve the Bartok with an external server and reclocker. In fact, I know you can. It's just the thought of it hurts me in regard to the waste.
> 
> ...


simple solution to your endeavor....dave +speakeramp+one of the following audeze lcd4,abyss or hifiman-6


----------



## Drewligarchy (Sep 18, 2021)

So, I just got a PS Audio P12 yesterday ...

Mainly because my mains voltage can occasionally get high (like 128 max, but rarely), which is bad for tube amps.

Anyhow, I am very surprised at the level of improvement I am getting with my system. Truthfully, I wasn't expecting much improvement - I was just hoping it didn't make the system sound worse, as has been my experience with some passive conditioners, while allowing me to hold a steady voltage and protect my equipment. I listened for many hours last night and the level of improvement was the same type of improvement I experienced with WAVE Cables and Opto DX. But, I already have those in my system and it still made a significant jump. Warmer, Darker but clearer, Deeper sound stage, smoother and more effortless. It's not subtle!

After I experienced this, I looked on the forum and was surprised that at least on this thread, people's experience with it has been neutral to negative - whereas mine has been incredibly positive.

A couple caveats:
- My entire system is plugged into the P12. I am using about 270 watts which is why I got the P12 (1000 watts max) rather than a P3 (300 watts max), but it you have normal headphone amp(s) you probably only need the P3 (The Wa33 is consistently at 250 watts, as it's Class A - it pretty much stays parked right there regardless of signal).
- Because my entire system is plugged in, I don't know if the enhancement is coming to the Dave or other areas of my system. BUT, the enhancement is the same character as the RFI reduction I've experienced with the Dave in the past.
- Before installing the P12, I have several RFI mitigation tools in my system - but have set it up so that I don't have to use batteries. It's Auralic Aries Femto / Matrix X SPDIF 2 DDC (Auralic Linear PS / Glass Optical ) > Chord M Scaler > Opto DX T (iFi Power Supply) > Opto DX R (Uptone LPS 1.2) > WAVE Stream Cables > Chord Dave (XLR) > Woo Wa33. This system has gotten me the best result with the least amount of fuss. I probably don't need both the Opto DX and the WAVE cables, but I had both - and could detect further improvement running WAVE Stream from the OPTO DX R to Dave - so what the heck, both are great. I think the combination of each also potentially helps since I am not running anything on battery with the Opto DX. Essentially, the only things galvanically connected to my Dave are Opto DX R, and my Woo Wa33 (note: everything does share a mains circuit, however, and now the P12).

Still I got a significant improvement with sound with the P12. I also fortunately got it for a very good price. I have considered the DC4 for the Dave and/or M Scaler, but I've hesitated. It's not voiding the warranty, its the price. In fact, I am setting up a demo with my dealer and a DCS Bartok - because compared to Dave/Mscaler, the optimizations necessary, and then spending over 10k power supply(ies) - it seems like a value at 15k! A headphone amp powerful enough for basically all my headphones, built in linear supply, built in streamer, software upgradeable, etc. I'm going to get an opportunity to compare Dave/Bartok head to head - as beyond the feature set - I could love it or not.

Anyhow, the fact that a P12 has this dramatic effect (again I don't have bad power, I wanted consistent voltage primarily for my tube amp) - piques my interest in third-party power supplies further for the Dave and/or M Scaler. I am still going to demo the Bartok, but I am slightly more inclined to stay with the Dave if they are close without the third-party power supplies - and, if I do, I may buy the DC4 or Arc 6 or whatever the recommended linear PS is for the Dave.

I have also upgraded my Wa33 SE to a Wa33 Elite - but am waiting to take delivery of that as it's currently being built. I am not going to try the Bartok until I get the new amp, as I want to hear how the Dave and Bartok synergize with it.


----------



## Drewligarchy

TheHifiBear said:


> It seems like no one else uses a Meridian 210, which I interpret as a bad omen.
> I did order one for testing and it should arrive on Friday.
> 
> So I’ll be able to contribute a bit by writing about my impressions of it compared to Roon through Node 2i and Sense.
> ...



Interesting - I didn't know Meridian released a streamer. Will look into it. I haven't heard it, obviously - but have had a lot of meridian gear over the years and it has all been fantastic, so I wouldn't worry too much.


----------



## Ards

Drewligarchy said:


> After I experienced this, I looked on the forum and was surprised that at least on this thread, people's experience with it has been neutral to negative - whereas mine has been incredibly positive.


FWIW, nothing but a positive experience with my P12, and prior to that P5.  Wouldn't build a hi-fi now without some form of power generator like this.


----------



## adrianm

Is anyone else curious about adding ANNI to Dave to run headphones like Abyss and Susvara?


----------



## Tanalasta

I suspect the power and current output in the ANNI will not really be sufficient to run Susvara to true potential. That'll be wishing too much out of a small package. I'm happy to be proved wrong though.


----------



## DJJEZ

adrianm said:


> Is anyone else curious about adding ANNI to Dave to run headphones like Abyss and Susvara?


At 10w into 8 ohms I don't think it will cut it for susvara


----------



## jlbrach

probably could drive the abyss TC quite well though,might work well with a hugo 2 as well for harder to drive HP's


----------



## Jawed

So it's voltage that you guys think Anni lacks - literally too quiet?


----------



## genefruit

Jawed said:


> So it's voltage that you guys think Anni lacks - literally too quiet?


Wattage wise, it falls between the single ended and balanced output of the TT2.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

Ards said:


> FWIW, nothing but a positive experience with my P12, and prior to that P5. Wouldn't build a hi-fi now without some form of power generator like this.


Same story here. I use P12 and very happy with it.


----------



## Clsmooth391

Ragnar-BY said:


> Same story here. I use P12 and very happy with it.


My power is bad and the P12 makes a big difference with the Dave.


----------



## hifixman

Tanalasta said:


> I suspect the power and current output in the ANNI will not really be sufficient to run Susvara to true potential. That'll be wishing too much out of a small package. I'm happy to be proved wrong though.


Dave could drive my susvara very loud at -5 volume


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I know many here use Innuos products to feed their Dave and/or M Scaler as I do. Others may have stuck with a PC/Laptop server perhaps for the convenience of using a parametric EQ to adjust for their room character. I have just written a request to Innuos (via their forum) for a Parametric EQ option to be added to their operating system.
If any of you would equally want this facility added then your comments would be welcomed here: 

https://innuos.upvoty.com/b/feature-requests/room-correction/?


----------



## llamaluv

Clsmooth391 said:


> My power is bad and the P12 makes a big difference with the Dave.


Another +1 for the P12 with the DAVE. 

Mixed results with various other components (amps in particular -- eg, the Bakoon AMP-R13 and the Benchmark HPA4), but a positive benefit for the DAVE.


----------



## Ards

What's the next best power supply for the DAVE after the DC4?  I cannot physically accommodate the DC4 so am looking for something smaller...


----------



## alxw0w

Ards said:


> What's the next best power supply for the DAVE after the DC4?  I cannot physically accommodate the DC4 so am looking for something smaller...


I asked Sean about DC3 (it seems a lot smaller than dc4, and also cheaper) but Sean no longer offer DC3 with 3 outputs to pair with the Dave.
I also asked Mattijs (farad power supplies) to make custom farad3 for the Dave, unfortunately he is way too busy making current power supplies for farad and pink faun.

As much as I want to try external power supply for Dave, DC4 is currently out of my budget


----------



## MatW

Ards said:


> What's the next best power supply for the DAVE after the DC4?  I cannot physically accommodate the DC4 so am looking for something smaller...


The stock power supply.


----------



## musickid (Oct 6, 2021)

I find the new silent fanless M1 macbook air with its internal ssd drive makes for an excellent roon bridge connected to my dave or could easily be used with an mscaler too. A high quality generic usb c to usb b cable does the trick here. The main advantage is battery powered operation (with the screen dimmed right down) eliminating ground loops. I use a small anker powerbank for added power if needed which is specifically designed for laptops and looks quite elegant next to the M1 air. Roon core is on a 4k 21.5 inch imac for user interface in my simple desktop set up.


----------



## iDesign (Oct 6, 2021)

musickid said:


> I find the new silent fanless M1 macbook air with its internal ssd drive makes for an excellent roon bridge connected to my dave or could easily be used with an mscaler too. A high quality generic usb c to usb b cable does the trick here. The main advantage is battery powered operation (with the screen dimmed right down) eliminating ground loops. I use a small anker powerbank for added power if needed which is specifically designed for laptops and looks quite elegant next to the M1 air. Roon core is on a 4k 21.5 inch imac for user interface in my simple desktop set up.


Actually, the latest Apple MacBooks seem to have noisy USB-4 outputs and I suspect the problems may be worsened by macOS Monterey-- there are far, far, better sources. Apple has been sorting issues related to the M1 MacBook's Thunderbolt/USB 4 performance and its well documented on technical Apple forums and it seems to come at the expense of audio performance.  For what its worth, the eighth developer beta running Roon 1.8 is no better and the ninth is due tomorrow.


----------



## musickid

At present my setup sounds excellent if there is an issue i'm not hearing it. I hope the next macOS doesn't change anything.


----------



## Progisus

musickid said:


> At present my setup sounds excellent if there is an issue i'm not hearing it. I hope the next macOS doesn't change anything.


How does it compare to the Touch you were using? I’ve been using a Touch/Mojo with Roon to give me a mobile platform capable of playing 16fs 24b PGGB remastered files.


----------



## musickid (Oct 6, 2021)

With the touch roon only sees the ios device and not beyond it so optimal settings are very limited. With the M1 air connected to dave as roon bridge dave shows up as an individual zone in audio settings. Now we can set dave as exclusive mode, integer mode etc etc. After careful comparison with the touch i gave the M1 air the thumbs up. In this set up with the anker laptop battery orchestral, acoustic music really shines through. With the wave stream cables which elevate the mscaler to battery powered performance and a battery powered source for the mscaler with the M1 air you've basically nailed the ground loop problem from both ends. With a similar set up using the touch when i had mtt2 vocals on Cuban Omara Portuondo Pelaez's _Flor de Amor _album really blew me away.

After saving my pennies the question remains to go mscaler or to go long deserved holiday. That's a tough one. It's important to note that although there are better sources not everyone can afford them and some creativity goes a long way. Till now the M1 air has been silent with no issues using it as a digital audio streamer. Everytime a new apple product appears the forums are full of complaints a trend going back many years. Then very soon forgotten.


----------



## musickid




----------



## ZappaMan

musickid said:


> At present my setup sounds excellent if there is an issue i'm not hearing it. I hope the next macOS doesn't change anything.


Have you put your ferengi ear right down close to the Mac though ?


----------



## atya35mm

Maybe it’s just me but I reckon the finishing on the Chord Dave is exquisite. Below is a crappy picture I took from my iPad (sorry!) of the Chord Dave next to Woo WA33, and the silver finishing on the Dave is way better with more texture showing then the WA33. It really is a piece of art that I enjoy aurally and visually!


----------



## alxw0w (Oct 7, 2021)

atya35mm said:


> Maybe it’s just me but I reckon the finishing on the Chord Dave is exquisite. Below is a crappy picture I took from my iPad (sorry!) of the Chord Dave next to Woo WA33, and the silver finishing on the Dave is way better with more texture showing then the WA33. It really is a piece of art that I enjoy aurally and visually!


Hmm your Dave has "magnifying glass" on the screen ?
I know there was update made on Dave production and now this screen is just a flat window, not a magnifying one 
That's sad I would highly prefer to order the old version (just of the screen) somewhere.


----------



## atya35mm

alxw0w said:


> Hmm your Dave has "magnifying glass" on the screen ?
> I know there was update made on Dave production and now this screen is just a flat window, not a magnifying one
> That's sad I would highly prefer to order the old version (just of the screen) somewhere.


Yes mine’s the older version with the magnifying one. I think I do prefer the flat screen just for better visibility but doesn’t bother me much.


----------



## MatW (Oct 7, 2021)

alxw0w said:


> Hmm your Dave has "magnifying glass" on the screen ?
> I know there was update made on Dave production and now this screen is just a flat window, not a magnifying one
> That's sad I would highly prefer to order the old version (just of the screen) somewhere.





atya35mm said:


> Yes mine’s the older version with the magnifying one. I think I do prefer the flat screen just for better visibility but doesn’t bother me much.


----------



## alxw0w

MatW said:


>


Ha that's what I thought. But he is from Australia, so too much hassle for so little 
The problem would be if silver finish is slightly different so the new porthole wouldn't fit.


----------



## Christer

atya35mm said:


> Maybe it’s just me but I reckon the finishing on the Chord Dave is exquisite. Below is a crappy picture I took from my iPad (sorry!) of the Chord Dave next to Woo WA33, and the silver finishing on the Dave is way better with more texture showing then the WA33. It really is a piece of art that I enjoy aurally and visually!


Hmm, did you buy a Dave  mainly for its looks and metal finish? 
Cheers CC


----------



## adrianm (Oct 7, 2021)

Christer said:


> Hmm, did you buy a Dave mainly for its looks and metal finish?


Not MAINLY, but it definitely helps  not a fan of the silver, but i do love the black one though. The brushed metal looks just like the Omega Speedmaster "Dark side of the Moon"
https://hodinkee.imgix.net/uploads/block/gallery_entry/content_image/1835/OmegaSpeedmasterDarkSideoftheMoon_3.jpg?ixlib=rails-1.1.0&fm=jpg&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=crop&ch=Width,DPR,Save-Data&alt=
It costs about the same and has some extra functionality


----------



## DJJEZ

atya35mm said:


> Maybe it’s just me but I reckon the finishing on the Chord Dave is exquisite. Below is a crappy picture I took from my iPad (sorry!) of the Chord Dave next to Woo WA33, and the silver finishing on the Dave is way better with more texture showing then the WA33. It really is a piece of art that I enjoy aurally and visually!


Agreed its a work of art.


----------



## adrianm

musickid said:


> It's important to note that although there are better sources not everyone can afford them and some creativity goes a long way. Till now the M1 air has been silent with no issues using it as a digital audio streamer.


 I didn't listen to anyone on this subject for a year (so i don't expect you will either),  but did eventually end up getting a streamer after i got the M-scaler.  While the difference is not of that magnitude, it is very noticeable. It's not like the Macbook is bad, but simply put, any source via USB, battery powered or not sounded worse to me than Optical. I can clearly hear noise. Same with the M-scaler when i run it from the mains and not a battery (and no i don't have Wave cables, and i don't advise getting 2k cables over a streamer and a battery if budget is a concern). With the streamer even optical sounds slightly better than optical out of my PC running Audirvana Studio (definitely a must have, without it there's no contest), but switching to coax made an even bigger difference, without the noise of usb from my MB pro 16.
     How does it manifest? like the clichee  says...you can hear deeper into the music, literally. I can hear stuff happening in the background much clearer than ever before. It's like front stage stuff was 4k resolution and the background was 720p. Now the subtle background stuff have more clarity and i'm noticing things i haven't before. 
    That said, i wasn't happy with any streamer cheaper than my current one. And even some more expensive ones. Not all streamers are better than your Macbook.
    I'd also advise looking into a good mains filter before that, to me it makes the biggest difference after the M-scaler.


musickid said:


> After saving my pennies the question remains to go mscaler or to go long deserved holiday. That's a tough one


  This is definitely a personal choice, but there's a new M-scaler coming out in a year or so and mental health you can't get back . I got my current gear with money i would've spent on vacations, if not for covid.


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> I didn't listen to anyone on this subject for a year (so i don't expect you will either),  but did eventually end up getting a streamer after i got the M-scaler.  While the difference is not of that magnitude, it is very noticeable. It's not like the Macbook is bad, but simply put, any source via USB, battery powered or not sounded worse to me than Optical. I can clearly hear noise. Same with the M-scaler when i run it from the mains and not a battery (and no i don't have Wave cables, and i don't advise getting 2k cables over a streamer and a battery if budget is a concern). With the streamer even optical sounds slightly better than optical out of my PC running Audirvana Studio (definitely a must have, without it there's no contest), but switching to coax made an even bigger difference, without the noise of usb from my MB pro 16.
> How does it manifest? like the clichee  says...you can hear deeper into the music, literally. I can hear stuff happening in the background much clearer than ever before. It's like front stage stuff was 4k resolution and the background was 720p. Now the subtle background stuff have more clarity and i'm noticing things i haven't before.
> That said, i wasn't happy with any streamer cheaper than my current one. And even some more expensive ones. Not all streamers are better than your Macbook.
> I'd also advise looking into a good mains filter before that, to me it makes the biggest difference after the M-scaler.
> ...


Speaking of mains filtering, I ended up picking up an Audioquest Niagara 1200, and it makes quite a bit of a difference over my already very good Ansuz power conditioner despite costing less. I borrowed the Niagara 3000 for a week but didn’t hear much difference so went with the smaller and cheaper model instead.


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> Speaking of mains filtering, I ended up picking up an Audioquest Niagara 1200, and it makes quite a bit of a difference over my already very good Ansuz power conditioner despite costing less. I borrowed the Niagara 3000 for a week but didn’t hear much difference so went with the smaller and cheaper model instead.


Glad to hear it, a good friend from the forum also raved about it. My Aquarius still blows me away, the bass is so much deeper and more physical, feels like someone's taping on your skull. I'm also considering a separate circuit for Dave in the new place but i don't really have a starting point on what to look for  in terms of cabling and etc as of yet, not to mention an electrician. I mean i have found stuff online but they seem kind of snake oily. Then again, i would've said the same thing about myself now a couple of years ago.


----------



## audio_1

adrianm said:


> I'd also advise looking into a good mains filter before that, to me it makes the biggest difference after the M-scaler.


I fully agreed. A good power conditioner is a great upgrade for the Dave. It really improves the sound quality.


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> Glad to hear it, a good friend from the forum also raved about it. My Aquarius still blows me away, the bass is so much deeper and more physical, feels like someone's taping on your skull. I'm also considering a separate circuit for Dave in the new place but i don't really have a starting point on what to look for  in terms of cabling and etc as of yet, not to mention an electrician. I mean i have found stuff online but they seem kind of snake oily. Then again, i would've said the same thing about myself now a couple of years ago.


A separate circuit is something that I’ve been recommended also. The dealer that I currently work with is trustworthy and I’ve done some research on this as well. Seems like a worthwhile thing to do to improve sound quality perceptibly. It doesn’t seem expensive either. Perhaps around $300-400, which is much less than the cost of a decent power cable at 2 meters.


----------



## maxh22 (Oct 7, 2021)

musickid said:


> After saving my pennies the question remains to go mscaler or to go long deserved holiday. That's a tough one. It's important to note that although there are better sources not everyone can afford them and some creativity goes a long way. Till now the M1 air has been silent with no issues using it as a digital audio streamer. Everytime a new apple product appears the forums are full of complaints a trend going back many years. Then very soon forgotten.


Hey musickid, if you haven’t already I highly recommend upgrading the power cable for Dave, it made a huge difference in my system and you will hear the difference even with headphones.
This is the one I recommend : Furutech Alpha PS-950
| HiFi Schuko Furutech Alpha PS-950 top Rhodium carbon fiber fever EU AC power cable FI-E50  FI-50 (R) plug
https://a.aliexpress.com/_msbHfme

The original retails for $1800 and I have no idea how this clone compares but it sounds glorious. Sound is richer , clearer, much more organic than the stock cable which comes off as fuzzy and hazy.


----------



## VladYR

maxh22 said:


> Hey musickid, if you haven’t already I highly recommend upgrading the power cable for Dave, it made a huge difference in my system and you will hear the difference even with headphones.
> This is the one I recommend : Furutech Alpha PS-950
> | HiFi Schuko Furutech Alpha PS-950 top Rhodium carbon fiber fever EU AC power cable FI-E50  FI-50 (R) plug
> https://a.aliexpress.com/_msbHfme
> ...


Aliexpress is something else when it comes to hifi. A few times when I was looking up Nordost Valhalla or Odin cables that website was listed among the results. Cables like that are only sold by dealers or by individuals on a handful of sites. Those cables won’t be going for $100 or less.

In any case, Nordost Frey 2 works very nicely. Another cable that I tried recently that performed similarly is Clarus Crimson. It’s a beast of a cable but very flexible despite its thickness.


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> A separate circuit is something that I’ve been recommended also. The dealer that I currently work with is trustworthy and I’ve done some research on this as well. Seems like a worthwhile thing to do to improve sound quality perceptibly. It doesn’t seem expensive either. Perhaps around $300-400, which is much less than the cost of a decent power cable at 2 meters.


Sadly i'm not in the US, anything in particular he recommended?


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> Sadly i'm not in the US, anything in particular he recommended?


Nothing elaborate. Just a dedicated circuit, even in the same room as everything else, to separate audio equipment from things like lighting, computers, etc. It sounds like a 2 or 3 hour job at most.


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> Nothing elaborate. Just a dedicated circuit, even in the same room as everything else, to separate audio equipment from things like lighting, computers, etc. It sounds like a 2 or 3 hour job at most.


At least it's not cryo cables and such. I mean i might get a thicker gauge of higher purity but i kind of draw the line at that


----------



## VladYR (Oct 7, 2021)

adrianm said:


> At least it's not cryo cables and such. I mean i might get a thicker gauge of higher purity but i kind of draw the line at that


No, nothing like that. I wouldn‘t spend much more than the figure I mentioned above. What we’ve spent already is borderline crazy to begin with 😂🤣😄

p.s.

Speaking of crazy, did you see the new top of the line offerings from Nordost? If Odin 2 is not expensive enough for your taste, just add some gold.

https://www.nordost.com/downloads/m...KRs&utm_content=166970868&utm_source=hs_email


----------



## maxh22

VladYR said:


> Aliexpress is something else when it comes to hifi. A few times when I was looking up Nordost Valhalla or Odin cables that website was listed among the results. Cables like that are only sold by dealers or by individuals on a handful of sites. Those cables won’t be going for $100 or less.
> 
> In any case, Nordost Frey 2 works very nicely. Another cable that I tried recently that performed similarly is Clarus Crimson. It’s a beast of a cable but very flexible despite its thickness.



It's a 1:1 clone of the original, most of the cost is in the R&D after all.

I compared it against a $200 cable and the Furutech was richer and darker while also being cleaner sounding and organic. Can't recommend it enough for those who like to keep their wallets nice and plump


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> What we’ve spent already is borderline crazy to begin with 😂🤣😄


Finally some sanity 


VladYR said:


> Speaking of crazy, did you see the new top of the line offerings from Nordost? If Odin 2 is not expensive enough for your taste, just add some gold.


Had no idea lol. I've listened to a Crystal Cable (they also have offerings around that price) at about 5k and it did sound pretty decent. But a handmade A Charlin for 1k sounded much  better. I'm still with my Isotek Premier , auditioned their range all the way to 1k and couldn't really see a reason to upgrade. Some minor "improvements" but it was mostly like hardware EQ.


----------



## audio_1

VladYR said:


> A separate circuit is something that I’ve been recommended also. The dealer that I currently work with is trustworthy and I’ve done some research on this as well. Seems like a worthwhile thing to do to improve sound quality perceptibly. It doesn’t seem expensive either. Perhaps around $300-400, which is much less than the cost of a decent power cable at 2 meters.


Earth loops could be a problem with separate power circuits for analogue and digital components. I have separate circuits, one to the front of my listening room for the Dave and power amps, the other to the side for digital components, Blu2 and Roon Nuc. The circuits are separated as much as possible in the attic, one runs at the front of the house, the other at the rear. They are fed from separate mcbs in the consumer unit. Earth loops are not an issue as my Blu2 and Dave are connected using the Opto-DX. This also allows separating digital and analogue components by over 4 metres, using 3 metre optical and 1.2 metre dual BNC cables.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

FWIW as food for thought, I have three dedicated lines for the audio system. One line is for the network gear, call it Phase A. Routers, switches, modems.

Phase B has audio gear, two lines. Server and dac are on a 12 gauge (AWG) Romex line, 20 amp breaker. All other gear is on a 10 gauge, stranded THHN line, in a metal flex conduit, 20 amp breaker. Both B Phase lines are the same length; the network phase is a bit longer.

I considered a larger 8ga. cable, but you become limited in options for outlets beyond 10ga AWG. And it is a pain to pull that cable. The gear will never come close to nearing the capacity of 10 or 12 ga. anyway.

These things are specific to each structure, but if you can separate your network and house from the audio gear, it's a net plus to SQ IMO. I know, that can be an easier said than done moment.

Additionally, I ran fiber to connect the network to the audio. In my environment, this was a big gain in SQ. Good Luck!


----------



## burbster

Seeing as we are on the subject of power, my wife just text me to say that a rather heavy DC4 shaped box has arrived for me. I need to get the screw driver and allan key set out then! Wish me luck!!


----------



## Triode User

burbster said:


> Seeing as we are on the subject of power, my wife just text me to say that a rather heavy DC4 shaped box has arrived for me. I need to get the screw driver and allan key set out then! Wish me luck!!


Exciting! Dc4 or ARC6?


----------



## burbster

Triode User said:


> Exciting! Dc4 or ARC6?


Just the dc4 I am afraid.    Times are hard! 
any views on how long it takes to burn in. I installed it earlier and left it running, but have not listened to it yet!


----------



## DJJEZ

burbster said:


> Just the dc4 I am afraid.    Times are hard!
> any views on how long it takes to burn in. I installed it earlier and left it running, but have not listened to it yet!


I've seen people say it's 500 hours+


----------



## Triode User

burbster said:


> Just the dc4 I am afraid.    Times are hard!
> any views on how long it takes to burn in. I installed it earlier and left it running, but have not listened to it yet!


I found the DC4 was pretty darned good from the word go and then just got better. It was the ARC6 that was a difficult beast to tame initially and took more running in before it became sweet and overtook the DC4. Have fun, you will enjoy the DC4.


----------



## Super Pang (Oct 13, 2021)

Can't resist being devils advocate here (sorry), but if his new, more expensive product sounds worse than his old "cheaper" product out of the box, why isn't Mr. Jacobs burning them in before shipment?
Genuine question. It would reduce the risk of returns.


----------



## Triode User

Super Pang said:


> Can't resist being devils advocate here (sorry), but if his new, more expensive product sounds worse than his old "cheaper" product out of the box, why isn't Mr. Jacobs burning them in before shipment?
> Genuine question. It would reduce the risk of returns.


You are in the UK so why not give him a call and ask. He is a nice guy and is happy to chat. I think his number is on his web site. Any of the rest of us would just be guessing.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Triode User said:


> You are in the UK so why not give him a call and ask. He is a nice guy and is happy to chat. I think his number is on his web site. Any of the rest of us would just be guessing.


+1  Sean is very responsive.  I emailed him a couple of weeks ago, and he responded in about 1 hour


----------



## Sampajanna

Sean is a pleasure to chat with, indeed. I exchanged emails with him several times.


----------



## burbster

Triode User said:


> I found the DC4 was pretty darned good from the word go and then just got better. It was the ARC6 that was a difficult beast to tame initially and took more running in before it became sweet and overtook the DC4. Have fun, you will enjoy the DC4.


Well, taking on board your comments, I give in to my urge and had a quick listen last night. There are few things more clichéd that a man buying a piece audio equipment, then, same man, taking to forums and telling everyone how wonderful it is, night and day blah blah, so I won't! I would just calmly suggest that anyone who has the opportunity to try a DC4, please do!

What I am having difficulty getting my head around though, is prior to the DC4, I had what I thought was a pretty resolving, quite decent system (appreciate these things are relative) and yet I am astounded at how much 'music' that system was leaving on the table, its mind boggling to think how much detail is in the humble CD and how few people ever get to hear it properly! (and I doubt very much that even now I am hearing all it has to offer, I suspect one would have to spend orders of magnitude more again to get to that stage!)


----------



## Triode User

burbster said:


> Well, taking on board your comments, I give in to my urge and had a quick listen last night. There are few things more clichéd that a man buying a piece audio equipment, then, same man, taking to forums and telling everyone how wonderful it is, night and day blah blah, so I won't! I would just calmly suggest that anyone who has the opportunity to try a DC4, please do!
> 
> What I am having difficulty getting my head around though, is prior to the DC4, I had what I thought was a pretty resolving, quite decent system (appreciate these things are relative) and yet I am astounded at how much 'music' that system was leaving on the table, its mind boggling to think how much detail is in the humble CD and how few people ever get to hear it properly! (and I doubt very much that even now I am hearing all it has to offer, I suspect one would have to spend orders of magnitude more again to get to that stage!)


Ah, yes, but once you have eaten the apple there is no going back! 

I also used to think that the Dave was the most extraordinary DAC I had ever heard. Now I realise that I was kidding myself. The DC4 (and now ARC6) seem to allow Dave to reach new heights of greatness than I couldn’t even dream of being possible. I have no need for a Dave 2, Dave + DC4 is that good already and renews my respect for Rob Watts and his design every time I listen with it.


----------



## Ards

burbster said:


> its mind boggling to think how much detail is in the humble CD and how few people ever get to hear it properly!


It's this sort of experience that convinces me that digital audio, as we experience it, is fundamentally "broken".  So many things we need to attend to in order to get decent from the format.   Somebody needs to start over and design a digital format immune to any and all issues.


----------



## BassicScience

Ards said:


> It's this sort of experience that convinces me that digital audio, as we experience it, is fundamentally "broken".  So many things we need to attend to in order to get decent from the format.   Somebody needs to start over and design a digital format immune to any and all issues.


There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with current digital formats (note plural), and there's also no such thing as a format immune "to any and all issues". Getting "decent" sound from current digital formats is reasonably trivial. What's being discussed (somewhat hyperbolically) here is pushing the state of the art.

EOM.


----------



## Triode User

BassicScience said:


> There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with current digital formats (note plural), and there's also no such thing as a format immune "to any and all issues". Getting "decent" sound from current digital formats is reasonably trivial. What's being discussed (somewhat hyperbolically) here is pushing the state of the art.
> 
> EOM.


And the other thing which is rarely discussed is the software used for playback. For many of us, experience has shown that sound quality is often not the same for different digital player (and server) software.


----------



## BassicScience

Triode User said:


> And the other thing which is rarely discussed is the software used for playback. For many of us, experience has shown that sound quality is often not the same for different digital player (and server) software.


Agreed that there are many variables in play that affect sound quality. My post was simply to point out that a new digital *format* cannot be a magic bullet to reducing those variables. If @Ards doesn't want to attend to a lot of details, maybe buy something like a Tambaqui and connect an Ethernet cable and a couple of interconnects to an amp to it. I can assure you he'll be getting well beyond "decent" sound and hearing everything that's on the CD, stream, etc.

If people choose to experiment with cables, power supplies, etc., that again has zero to do with digital format.


----------



## burbster

BassicScience said:


> There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with current digital formats (note plural), and there's also no such thing as a format immune "to any and all issues". Getting "decent" sound from current digital formats is reasonably trivial. What's being discussed (somewhat hyperbolically) here is pushing the state of the art.
> 
> EOM.


I agree there is nothing broken With the format itself, in fact my recent experience is indicating that even redbook cd is capable of incredible things, so the  analogue to digital process works very well! The issue lies in the digital to analogue conversion. It appears it is very difficult and currently very expensive to do this aspect well, and like triode user states, even the way playback software is coded effects the sound, i Don’t think the industry explicitly lied when they marketed Digital audio, ’perfect sound for ever’ they just failed to mention how bloody difficult it would be to once again extract that perfect Sound!


----------



## Triode User

BassicScience said:


> Agreed that there are many variables in play that affect sound quality. My post was simply to point out that a new digital *format* cannot be a magic bullet to reducing those variables. If @Ards doesn't want to attend to a lot of details, maybe buy something like a Tambaqui and connect an Ethernet cable and a couple of interconnects to an amp to it. I can assure you he'll be getting well beyond "decent" sound and hearing everything that's on the CD, stream, etc.
> 
> If people choose to experiment with cables, power supplies, etc., that again has zero to do with digital format.


But digital format can have an influence on what comes out of the other end of the DAC. It is also not always a given that one can hear everything that is on the CD or stream even with a DAC that is 'well beyond decent sound'. I listened to one such dac recently and the stroked cymbals I knew to be there were masked by other sounds coming from the DAC output.

I see that you do not have a Dave and perhaps some of the wonderful sounds we hear are not therefore available to you.  Perhaps your participation in the Dave thread is because you are considering a Dave?

Seriously though, it would be interesting to compare one of our Daves to your EMM Labs DA2 V2. I am currently at a very happy place with my Dave and it is difficult to imagine anything better hence wondering about your DA2.


----------



## BassicScience

burbster said:


> I agree there is nothing broken With the format itself, in fact my recent experience is indicating that even redbook cd is capable of incredible things, so the  analogue to digital process works very well! The issue lies in the digital to analogue conversion. It appears it is very difficult and currently very expensive to do this aspect well, and like triode user states, even the way playback software is coded effects the sound, i Don’t think the industry explicitly lied when they marketed Digital audio, ’perfect sound for ever’ they just failed to mention how bloody difficult it would be to once again extract that perfect Sound!


I don't really want to get too far OT here, but will simply say that a novice reading Head-Fi could certainly get the impression that achieving superb digital playback is very complicated and costly, but in 2021 I don't believe that to be true on either count. While a consumer must educate himself (herself) to make informed choices, the engineers behind the products have already done the heavy lifting. As a child of the analog era, I have to laugh when people complain about the (relative) challenges of digital audio!


----------



## BassicScience

Triode User said:


> But digital format can have an influence on what comes out of the other end of the DAC. It is also not always a given that one can hear everything that is on the CD or stream even with a DAC that is 'well beyond decent sound'. I listened to one such dac recently and the stroked cymbals I knew to be there were masked by other sounds coming from the DAC output.
> 
> I see that you do not have a Dave and perhaps some of the wonderful sounds we hear are not therefore available to you.  Perhaps your participation in the Dave thread is because you are considering a Dave?
> 
> Seriously though, it would be interesting to compare one of our Daves to your EMM Labs DA2 V2. I am currently at a very happy place with my Dave and it is difficult to imagine anything better hence wondering about your DA2.


No, I'm not considering purchasing a DAVE. I've heard it on several occasions and while it's a very fine DAC, I never found it to be _sui generis_. If you do, there's no real point in arguing subjective impressions. I was simply reading the thread and saw a post (tangentially related to DAVE) that I felt needed a response. If that violates some protocol here, please accept my apology.


----------



## Ards

Triode User said:


> And the other thing which is rarely discussed is the software used for playback. For many of us, experience has shown that sound quality is often not the same for different digital player (and server) software.


It's this sort of experience that convinces me that digital audio, as we experience it, is fundamentally "broken". So many things we need to attend to in order to get decent from the format. Somebody needs to start over and design a digital format immune to any and all issues


----------



## Triode User

Ards said:


> It's this sort of experience that convinces me that digital audio, as we experience it, is fundamentally "broken". So many things we need to attend to in order to get decent from the format. Somebody needs to start over and design a digital format immune to any and all issues


You can get decent sound already from the format. We are taking here about incremental improvements for those who search them out as opposed to fixing a ‘broken’ technology.


----------



## iDesign

Ards said:


> It's this sort of experience that convinces me that digital audio, as we experience it, is fundamentally "broken". So many things we need to attend to in order to get decent from the format. Somebody needs to start over and design a digital format immune to any and all issues


It depends on your definition of digital audio. If you’re referring to streaming music from services like TIDAL or Qobuz, that is very much down a dirt road.


----------



## 801evan (Oct 16, 2021)

Hi,
Wanna share my findings on testing the Dave over a bit of a different setup:

Transport: phone
Chain, dual ipurifier, dual idefender plus, cosemi usb cable, src dx
Filter: 80x lt3045, dual line conditioner
Cables: all 20awg silver occ
Ranking:
1. Hi-res 192 wav Onkyo player
2. Mqa onkyo (no unfolding)
3. Hi-res 192 wav uapp
4. Mqa uapp (unfolding to 96khz)
5. PGGB 768,20bit,512m onkyo
6. 768 sinc mx lns15 onkyo

768 and 384 is 0dbfs as -3dbfs kills too much transparency.

For PGGB, 20 bit was better than 24 bit and I picked the best PGGB render over the top 5.

I may try 20 bit depth for HQplayer? But I'm not holding my breath it'll catch up. 768 is definite improvement over 384 but the vocals got mumbly. Maybe a transport thing since it's a phone buy that's the ranking for now.

I used HQplayer pro to render out oversampled files and stored to my phone to reduce the factor of a noisy PC and busy cpu processing.

Tomorrow I'll go back on my zen stream powered by custom o-core sparkos psu + dxpwr and do another shoot out with the top 2.


----------



## VladYR

Has anyone here try the Innuos Zen Mini MK3? I’ve got one loaned to me for around 2 weeks and so far the experience is somewhat underwhelming. It’s connected to my Linn Selekt through usb. Previously my source was a Netgear Nighthawk router with an ssd usb drive with high res files. For some reason this sounds better to me than the Zen. Kind of weird given that the router goes for a little over $200 and the Zen coats $1400.


----------



## jlbrach

I have the zenith 3 and think it is marvelous FWIIW


----------



## Ciggavelli

VladYR said:


> Has anyone here try the Innuos Zen Mini MK3? I’ve got one loaned to me for around 2 weeks and so far the experience is somewhat underwhelming. It’s connected to my Linn Selekt through usb. Previously my source was a Netgear Nighthawk router with an ssd usb drive with high res files. For some reason this sounds better to me than the Zen. Kind of weird given that the router goes for a little over $200 and the Zen coats $1400.


The PhoenixUSB is a necessarity with that I think.  I had the MK3 and the Phoenix together, and it definitely sounded great.  I had the Phoneix first, which made a big difference.  Then I added the MK3 and it was a more subtle improvement.


----------



## Sampajanna

I have asked this before, but am hoping to get advice from those who are currently doing this or who have tried: My Dave is connected directly to my amps via XLR and I use it to control volume. I want to simultaneously go from the RCA to an active subwoofer. Someone told me this works. Any other advice? Warnings?
Thanks


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> Has anyone here try the Innuos Zen Mini MK3? I’ve got one loaned to me for around 2 weeks and so far the experience is somewhat underwhelming. It’s connected to my Linn Selekt through usb. Previously my source was a Netgear Nighthawk router with an ssd usb drive with high res files. For some reason this sounds better to me than the Zen. Kind of weird given that the router goes for a little over $200 and the Zen coats $1400.


I haven't tried it because my dealer recommended the Mind2 over  it and the zenith, but i do prefer coax out of everything i've heard. That said, playing local files vs streaming is also part of the equation.
Never mind i guess you're using it as a local server


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> I haven't tried it because my dealer recommended the Mind2 over  it and the zenith, but i do prefer coax out of everything i've heard. That said, playing local files vs streaming is also part of the equation.
> Never mind i guess you're using it as a local server


Yes, that was the idea. I generally liked the Zen MK3 but I had it hooked up the the M Scaler while the Selekt was getting fixed. This is a cheaper model that’s a fraction of the cost and size. The latter is a plus. I thought it would sound better than a laptop running Audirvana or a router acting as a source. Contrary to expectations, it sounds worse for some reason.


----------



## adrianm

VladYR said:


> Yes, that was the idea. I generally liked the Zen MK3 but I had it hooked up the the M Scaler while the Selekt was getting fixed. This is a cheaper model that’s a fraction of the cost and size. The latter is a plus. I thought it would sound better than a laptop running Audirvana or a router acting as a source. Contrary to expectations, it sounds worse for some reason.


I think that when buffering comes into play there's really no explanation on why a different server would sound better than another. I'm sure others disagree though. Even Stereophile found no  discernible difference.


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> I think that when buffering comes into play there's really no explanation on why a different server would sound better than another. I'm sure others disagree though. Even Stereophile found no  discernible difference.


It’s not really a big deal. At this point there’s not a whole lot to tweak and improve. I might just start saving up for an Ultima 6 amp and a pair of Kef Blade 2 speakers or something similar.


----------



## Jawed

VladYR said:


> It’s not really a big deal. At this point there’s not a whole lot to tweak and improve. I might just start saving up for an Ultima 6 amp and a pair of Kef Blade 2 speakers or something similar.


Maybe Blade Meta or something more radical is coming soon from KEF, as the 60th anniversary celebrations kick in to gear.

Worth serious consideration:

Magico S3
Vimberg Tonda
Vivid Giya G3
YG Acoustics Vantage
American speakers are going to be much more "value for money" in your part of the world.

I'm planning to find out whether Ultima 5 is an upgrade from Etude, maybe before Christmas.


----------



## deanaves

mslatr said:


> I have a Blu II on order and can't wait for delivery. Just wondering if anyone has recommendation for the cables to connect to the DAVE? Looks like I need 2 BNC SPDIF cables to connect to DX inputs, does anyone know if someone sells a dual cable or do I need 2 cables? Will any cable work or do I need a higher bandwidth cable? I have tried googling the answer but can't find a definite answer on operating at +700 khz. Any thoughts would be appreciated


https://www.wavehighfidelity.com/storm-1/wave-storm-bnc-cable


----------



## adrianm

deanaves said:


> https://www.wavehighfidelity.com/storm-1/wave-storm-bnc-cable


That post is 4 years old


----------



## deanaves

Didn't take note of the date
Was just trying to help


----------



## CallMeCynical

Sampajanna said:


> I have asked this before, but am hoping to get advice from those who are currently doing this or who have tried: My Dave is connected directly to my amps via XLR and I use it to control volume. I want to simultaneously go from the RCA to an active subwoofer. Someone told me this works. Any other advice? Warnings?
> Thanks


This is a response to Sampajanna's question regarding low level connection from DAVE RCA out to a sub. I can confirm that parallel output via both RCA and XLR occurs as I have used this very configuration in my system - where DAVE is connected via XLR to a Chord Ultima 6 amp and RCA connection is fed to a single sub. I have now changed the sub and connect via the high level (directly from the amp). By the way, adding a sub to the system was one of the best upgrades I have made in recent times. I debated whether to spend the funds on a linear PSU for the MScaler (and was seriously considering the PLiXiR Elite) and WAVE Storm Ref cables, but wanted to explore more what a sub could do for the system (and how this could better drive the room) .


----------



## gnomen

CallMeCynical said:


> This is a response to Sampajanna's question regarding low level connection from DAVE RCA out to a sub. I can confirm that parallel output via both RCA and XLR occurs as I have used this very configuration in my system - where DAVE is connected via XLR to a Chord Ultima 6 amp and RCA connection is fed to a single sub. I have now changed the sub and connect via the high level (directly from the amp). By the way, adding a sub to the system was one of the best upgrades I have made in recent times. I debated whether to spend the funds on a linear PSU for the MScaler (and was seriously considering the PLiXiR Elite) and WAVE Storm Ref cables, but wanted to explore more what a sub could do for the system (and how this could better drive the room) .


Wouldn't the sub have its own amp - sorry if I don't understand what you mean here.  BTW which sub did you choose?


----------



## Sampajanna

CallMeCynical said:


> This is a response to Sampajanna's question regarding low level connection from DAVE RCA out to a sub. I can confirm that parallel output via both RCA and XLR occurs as I have used this very configuration in my system - where DAVE is connected via XLR to a Chord Ultima 6 amp and RCA connection is fed to a single sub. I have now changed the sub and connect via the high level (directly from the amp). By the way, adding a sub to the system was one of the best upgrades I have made in recent times. I debated whether to spend the funds on a linear PSU for the MScaler (and was seriously considering the PLiXiR Elite) and WAVE Storm Ref cables, but wanted to explore more what a sub could do for the system (and how this could better drive the room) .


Thanks so much!!! I appreciate the response! I also am interested in what sub you chose. I didnt think I could have subs, due to room size. Also my speakers are full range. But then I got the smaller KC62 sub from KEF to go with the LS50s I have in my b-system and was very impressed indeed. Then I saw they have a bigger brother (KF92) and wondered if those would work in the reference system. So I measured and they will fit in the space.... Excited to explore this possibility!


----------



## burbster

CallMeCynical said:


> This is a response to Sampajanna's question regarding low level connection from DAVE RCA out to a sub. I can confirm that parallel output via both RCA and XLR occurs as I have used this very configuration in my system - where DAVE is connected via XLR to a Chord Ultima 6 amp and RCA connection is fed to a single sub. I have now changed the sub and connect via the high level (directly from the amp). By the way, adding a sub to the system was one of the best upgrades I have made in recent times. I debated whether to spend the funds on a linear PSU for the MScaler (and was seriously considering the PLiXiR Elite) and WAVE Storm Ref cables, but wanted to explore more what a sub could do for the system (and how this could better drive the room) .


Yes I agree about the sub. I have used two Sub Woofers for some time now in my setup. In my view they are essential, not just for digging deeper, but more importantly, if set up correctly, flattening out the frequency response, which in turn has huge overall benefits.


----------



## CallMeCynical

Sampajanna said:


> Thanks so much!!! I appreciate the response! I also am interested in what sub you chose. I didnt think I could have subs, due to room size. Also my speakers are full range. But then I got the smaller KC62 sub from KEF to go with the LS50s I have in my b-system and was very impressed indeed. Then I saw they have a bigger brother (KF92) and wondered if those would work in the reference system. So I measured and they will fit in the space.... Excited to explore this possibility!


I went with a single REL S812 in the end, which is partnered with Focal 1028BE speakers, which already have reasonable bass response. REL recommend connection via the high level input (off the amp rather than via the preamp as a low level connection) so this is how the sub is connected currently. As Burbster commented, subs are pretty much essential for getting the best bass response. I'm still experimenting with set up here and have spent numerous hours measuring room response using REW. Until I spent time measuring what the room was doing, I really had completely underappreciated importance of room acoustics and the level of influence this plays in SQ. I certainly thought understanding how my listening space (a humble rectangular lounge) reacts acoustically to sound would set me down a path of getting better SQ from my system. This is certainly proving to the case as there are some very obvious room anti-modes (nulls) in key bass regions that need to be addressed. It's proving to be a very interesting learning journey...


----------



## Jawed

CallMeCynical said:


> This is certainly proving to the case as there are some very obvious room anti-modes (nulls) in key bass regions that need to be addressed.


Book cases full of books in room corners work wonders on nulls, e.g. 2m tall and 40cm wide. Surprisingly, heavy cushions help, too, e.g. 90x90cm duck down cushions (accidental discovery). All of these also calm room zinginess 

The concept of "slowing the air" is why these things help the bass. You could, instead, spend zillions on bass traps, but they are so ugly.

Bass peaks are tamed by placing the woofer or reflex port at "the right" distance from the nearest wall. e.g. if the worst peak is at 40Hz, then place the reflex ports at a position that minimises it (left-right, front-back). If the peak is at 100Hz, then place the woofers at the appropriate position. Here, I'm assuming your speakers have a reflex port tuned to about 40Hz.

Since you're using REW, spend time moving a single speaker 2cm at a time left-right and front-to back, just measuring that speaker. Then do the same for the other speaker. Use that to get an idea of how symmetrical your room is for bass, then take that as a guide for stereo imaging speaker positioning.

In my opinion this page is the most useful:

https://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators/loudspeakers.html

Set up the room dimensions and approximate furnishings and turn off the "room treatment".

Then set your listening position and move the speakers around. It's fun. And astonishingly accurate.

Basically, you want to place the speakers in the squares with the brightest green, which is where the bass will be smoothest.

Spend a few days just learning/experimenting. Try new speaker positions for a week or two at a time, because it's crucial to listen to a variety of music to get a feeling for the changes.

The "Bolt area" visualisation on this page:

https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc

is very useful. The general concepts there are useful too, but I find the modes it predicts are a poor match for reality in the two rooms I've worked with (only about half correct below about 150Hz).


----------



## CallMeCynical

Jawed said:


> Book cases full of books in room corners work wonders on nulls, e.g. 2m tall and 40cm wide. Surprisingly, heavy cushions help, too, e.g. 90x90cm duck down cushions (accidental discovery). All of these also calm room zinginess
> 
> The concept of "slowing the air" is why these things help the bass. You could, instead, spend zillions on bass traps, but they are so ugly.
> 
> ...


Hey Jawed, thank you for the considered reply and links to information on this subject area. This is most appreciated! I'm finding that there's so much conflicting information about the approach one can take I can completely identify with all those persons that have felt the pain of attempting to "tame" the room - either through specialist room acoustic treatments or EQ or adding subs (or any combination of these) or concluded that subs create "muddy" base. As with most folks, I'm limited as to the level of room layout changes etc as I'm not the only person living in the house. There's no way I could conceive of placing those ugly bass traps in the room as this would most likely result in a quick divorce so I'm really just looking to make the most of speaker/sub placement in the room. I'm also slightly wary of using EQ in the system as I expect this would result in some detriment of SQ in the system. Possibly, EQ could be used in the feed to the sub only in order to minimise the effect on SQ. 

Interestingly, my DAVE unit has been misbehaving somewhat during measurements rounds as it has sometimes refused to recognise inputs - specifically the dual BNC feed from the MScaler when I've switched between USB and BNC. It switched into DAC mode (and umuted itself) in one instance, which obviously resulted in -3db signal being played through the system! After my heart settled down, I contemplated crafting a strongly worded e-mail to Chord, but thought thought better or it after sleeping on things. Still the fact random things seem to occur when switching between inputs is more than a little unsettling. I'm sure Mr Watts has implemented some logic changes in the FPGA that improve signal detection/function etc in time period since I purchased my DAVE unit (purchased back in Oct 2015) so I wonder if my unit needs to go back to Chord for Firmware update...


----------



## Sampajanna

Nice. I would love to have REL, but not enough space atm… my speakers are full range, but I still think subs will make a big difference, judging by systems I have heard tat hv some installed.


----------



## Clive101

Also any one upgrading a Chord DAC try this link you get a 100 percent buy back of original cost.

UK only

https://www.fanthorpes.co.uk/chord-...il&utm_term=0_b794963e51-387af17ebb-433850989


----------



## Christer

Clive101 said:


> Also any one upgrading a Chord DAC try this link you get a 100 percent buy back of original cost.
> 
> UK only
> 
> https://www.fanthorpes.co.uk/chord-...il&utm_term=0_b794963e51-387af17ebb-433850989


Hmm ,do not forget that they recently raised the prices of those dacs like -Dave and TT2 by about as much as a Qutest used to cost.
Cheers CC


----------



## DJJEZ

Christer said:


> Hmm ,do not forget that they recently raised the prices of those dacs like -Dave and TT2 by about as much as a Qutest used to cost.
> Cheers CC


Qutest and TT2 went up by £250
DAVE went up by £500


----------



## datka3 (Oct 30, 2021)

If anyone is interested in using external linear power supply for Dave , check out my listing .

I’ve had it for 1 year and had 0 issues .
I have sold DAVE , so no need for dual LPS .

It made huge difference for me making bit less digital and more pleasurable to listen to . Basically all added benefits when replacing switched power ( stock ) with external dual LPS

I would have no problem selling keces p3 individually for about 300-3500 each  but thought to offer to the community first as a LPS solution for DAVE 

All you would need to to use open DAVe , remove internal switches power supply and connect one I’ll send you .
Cables are ready to go and wires properly . I’ve had this setup for almost a year with no issues .  If this does not sell in a week I’ll sell keces as regular LPS . So act now if you want to experience how Dave sounds with true  external Dual LPS 

https://audiophilestyle.com/classifieds/item/1656-2-keces-dual-dc-power-supplies-chord-dave-harness/


----------



## Uncle Monty

Christer said:


> Hmm ,do not forget that they recently raised the prices of those dacs like -Dave and TT2 by about as much as a Qutest used to cost.
> Cheers CC


I got 100% trade in on TT2 when I bought my DAVE (from a different UK supplier) - but you pay 100% of DAVE price this way, whereas if you just buy one for cash you'll get 15% off.


----------



## Lgn3 (Oct 30, 2021)

Anyyone considering taking advantage  of this offer can be assured that Fanthorpes are great people to deal with. Outstanding customer service, at least in my experience.


----------



## Tension250

Hi all,
I just got a new Dave a few days ago. It is really good. I am pairing it with my Nad c275 bee and thinking what would be a better option to drive B&W 88 dB bookshelves. 

I am very interested in the NAD M22V2 because the C275 works really well with Dave (better than a couple of more expensive ones I have). I am also considering Etude. I like Etude but there is so little info. regarding this amp.  I like a good sound stage + focused imaging. Better to be a silver color..... 

*Please, could some help to share some experiences on these two amps (NAD m22 vs. Etude)? or maybe some other amps that work well with DAVE. *


----------



## ecwl

Tension250 said:


> Hi all,
> I just got a new Dave a few days ago. It is really good. I am pairing it with my Nad c275 bee and thinking what would be a better option to drive B&W 88 dB bookshelves.
> 
> I am very interested in the NAD M22V2 because the C275 works really well with Dave (better than a couple of more expensive ones I have). I am also considering Etude. I like Etude but there is so little info. regarding this amp.  I like a good sound stage + focused imaging. Better to be a silver color.....
> ...


The issue with the NAD M22 is that it is a switching amplifier. So even though it might have a lower noise floor and more power than the C275, the amplifier probably switches at around 500kHz whereas DAVE first upsamples to 705/768kHz and then further upsamples to 104MHz with noise shaping to get you great timing accuracy and remarkable transients. So I personally would strongly advise you against getting any Class D amplifiers as an upgrade from the C275.

I own the Chord Etude so I'm biased but I really like it. Another amp I like that I found superbly transparent is Bryston 4B3 although I think I still prefer the Chord Etude slightly more. Part of the challenge in getting a good Class A/AB amplifier to pair with the DAVE is that many excellent amplifiers are still not as transparent as the DAVE (which is probably why you're already thinking about upgrading the NAD C275 even though it's already an excellent amp). And as I said, class D amplifiers that are transparent and dynamic ruin the transient accuracy of DAVE. So if I were you, I would enjoy the DAVE with the NAD C275 for a bit longer for now and start slowly exploring what amplifier you want to upgrade to. (btw, I presume you're hooking the DAVE up directly to the C275 as I have yet to hear a preamp that's truly transparent to the DAVE. Although I know some people in the forum/thread disagree).


----------



## JTbbb

Tension250 said:


> Hi all,
> I just got a new Dave a few days ago. It is really good. I am pairing it with my Nad c275 bee and thinking what would be a better option to drive B&W 88 dB bookshelves.
> 
> I am very interested in the NAD M22V2 because the C275 works really well with Dave (better than a couple of more expensive ones I have). I am also considering Etude. I like Etude but there is so little info. regarding this amp.  I like a good sound stage + focused imaging. Better to be a silver color.....
> ...


I have no experience with NAD amplifiers, but I do have an Etude which I home demoed with a Naim NAP300. The Etude was brighter and more analytical than the smooth Naim. The Etude sounds like my HD800S headphones. I would suggest it’s more about looking for an amplifier to go well with your B&W’s


----------



## BassicScience

ecwl said:


> The issue with the NAD M22 is that it is a switching amplifier. So even though it might have a lower noise floor and more power than the C275, the amplifier probably switches at around 500kHz whereas DAVE first upsamples to 705/768kHz and then further upsamples to 104MHz with noise shaping to get you great timing accuracy and remarkable transients. So I personally would strongly advise you against getting any Class D amplifiers as an upgrade from the C275.
> 
> I own the Chord Etude so I'm biased but I really like it. Another amp I like that I found superbly transparent is Bryston 4B3 although I think I still prefer the Chord Etude slightly more. Part of the challenge in getting a good Class A/AB amplifier to pair with the DAVE is that many excellent amplifiers are still not as transparent as the DAVE (which is probably why you're already thinking about upgrading the NAD C275 even though it's already an excellent amp). And as I said, class D amplifiers that are transparent and dynamic ruin the transient accuracy of DAVE. So if I were you, I would enjoy the DAVE with the NAD C275 for a bit longer for now and start slowly exploring what amplifier you want to upgrade to. (btw, I presume you're hooking the DAVE up directly to the C275 as I have yet to hear a preamp that's truly transparent to the DAVE. Although I know some people in the forum/thread disagree).


The fact that the M22 V2 is a switching amp is *completely independent of and irrelevant to* any upsampling a DAC may be doing. It is a superb amp, but probably overkill for all but the least sensitive headphones.


----------



## Tension250 (Oct 31, 2021)

Thanks all!

Your replies are beyond my knowledge (the Nad m22 part....). Yes, I am using the DAVE as a preamp as well. I do have a Schiit freya+ (NOS tubes from 40s 50s) and Gustard p26. Not as good as using the DAVE alone.

I love the sound from my C275 but not the look  .....  Then from what I read here and many other places, is it more relevant how an amp drives speakers than how an amp works with the DAC? Sorry for my poor English. Wish you understand my sentences ..... 

I can also get a 4b3 and its look is comparable to my c275 ......


----------



## BassicScience

Tension250 said:


> Thanks all!
> 
> Your replies are beyond my knowledge (the Nad m22 part....). Yes, I am using the DAVE as a preamp as well. I do have a Schiit freya+ (NOS tubes from 40s 50s) and Gustard p26. Not as good as using the DAVE alone.
> 
> ...


Engineering is typically a specialized and full-time job. Most firms hire or contract an industrial designer to craft the exterior look of a product.


----------



## Triode User

BassicScience said:


> Engineering is typically a specialized and full-time job. Most firms hire or contract an industrial designer to craft the exterior look of a product.


As you are posting in the Dave thread you will probably know that as far as I know Chord are an exception to what you say there.


----------



## BassicScience (Oct 31, 2021)

Triode User said:


> As you are posting in the Dave thread you will probably know that as far as I know Chord are an exception to what you say there.


That's interesting, although it doesn't really change or invalidate anything I wrote. It's not realistic to expect most engineers to acquire expertise in industrial design. Cheers.


----------



## Tension250

There could be a consensus reached regarding the criteria to choose an AMP for Dave. Can anyone say something?

Neutral, transparent, or even analytical, high gain or low gain. Class A, AB, D, or e,f,g whatsoever, not for personal taste but to make the best out of the DAC? 

I am seeking such info. but not so much regarding speaker amps ,,,,, except the Etude-  an answer from Chord itself


----------



## Tension250

BassicScience said:


> That's interesting, although it doesn't really change or invalidate anything I wrote. It's not realistic to expect most engineers to acquire expertise in industrial design. Cheers.


LoL. that is so true. As a biomedical engineer who spent four years on painting in an art school, I feel really bad looking at ugly (in my taste) but good quality engineering pieces.


----------



## Tension250

Triode User said:


> As you are posting in the Dave thread you will probably know that as far as I know Chord are an exception to what you say there.


Does that mean we are paying half of the price for the art part .......?


----------



## Tension250

JTbbb said:


> I have no experience with NAD amplifiers, but I do have an Etude which I home demoed with a Naim NAP300. The Etude was brighter and more analytical than the smooth Naim. The Etude sounds like my HD800S headphones. I would suggest it’s more about looking for an amplifier to go well with your B&W’s


I have HD800 (the silver one) and the only amp sounds good in my ears is the WA5. I tried many many SS amps, and the treble all hurts.....


----------



## JTbbb

Tension250 said:


> I have HD800 (the silver one) and the only amp sounds good in my ears is the WA5. I tried many many SS amps, and the treble all hurts.....


I couldn’t live with the HD800, far too bright.


----------



## CBR954RR

I've just upgraded from a Qutest with MScaler to the Dave kept the Mscaler, just want to say what an upgrade completely blown away with the Dave, love it I've never heard digital replay sound soooo good. 

I feed the MScaler with a Naim ND5XS2.


----------



## Triode User

CBR954RR said:


> I've just upgraded from a Qutest with MScaler to the Dave kept the Mscaler, just want to say what an upgrade completely blown away with the Dave, love it I've never heard digital replay sound soooo good.
> 
> I feed the MScaler with a Naim ND5XS2.


Yep, the Dave is rather special. Enjoy!


----------



## Christer (Nov 1, 2021)

Tension250 said:


> Does that mean we are paying half of the price for the art part .......?


In many cases YES!
And Chord Electronics is no exception imo.
Many audiophiles are easily fooled by what they perceive as GOOD looks and fancy face plates.
Few know what the actual pros in the classical recording industry actually use making their recordings.
Cheers CC


----------



## andrewd01

Dave 2 on the way?
https://chordelectronics.co.uk/coming-soon


----------



## ufospls2

andrewd01 said:


> Dave 2 on the way?
> https://chordelectronics.co.uk/coming-soon



Mojo2.


----------



## miketlse (Nov 11, 2021)

.


----------



## Christer (Nov 1, 2021)

ufospls2 said:


> Mojo2.


My guess as well. Dave 2 VERY unlikely. Mscaler x seems more likely if anything  at all in their SOTA range is coming anytime  soon.
And  if  MOJO 2 will both  be better ie more neutral and transparent than H2 and compatible with the Mscaler it might be interesting for travel use, or maybe even on its own?
Cheers CC.


----------



## CBR954RR

andrewd01 said:


> Dave 2 on the way?
> https://chordelectronics.co.uk/coming-soon


Hope not I've just bought a new Dave 😬


----------



## andrewd01

miketlse said:


> If you say so.


Did you not notice the question mark?


----------



## miketlse

CBR954RR said:


> Hope not I've just bought a new Dave 😬


I think you are safe for a few years yet.


----------



## alxw0w (Nov 1, 2021)

It's mojo 2.
Chord changed the foto. The original one was different and you could spot mojo2 shape easily.
You can see first version here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20211029113741/https://chordelectronics.co.uk/coming-soon


----------



## miketlse

andrewd01 said:


> Did you not notice the question mark?


Yes I did.
Sorry if you were offended, but:

everytime Rob Watts gets asked about DAVE2, he replies that it is not on his roadmap, and he has not even started thinking about preliminary designs
for several months posters have been debating images like these , and they do look similar to the teaser photos that Chord has been posting recently.


----------



## DJJEZ

andrewd01 said:


> Dave 2 on the way?
> https://chordelectronics.co.uk/coming-soon


----------



## andrewd01 (Nov 1, 2021)

I think the whole point of the teaser campaign is to create speculation on the forums about what the product could be.  A 90 day teaser campaign for a Mojo refresh seems out of proportion for an entry level product.  Dave is approaching its seventh birthday.  Of course Rob W is not going to spill the beans on headfi in advance of an update to the flagship - this would be carefully choreographed.

Anyway apologies for ruffling feathers, lets hope whatever the product is it is worthy of a 90 day buildup!


----------



## DJJEZ

andrewd01 said:


> I think the whole point of the teaser campaign is to create speculation on the forums about what the product could be.  A 90 day teaser campaign for a Mojo refresh seems out of proportion for an entry level product.  Dave is approaching its seventh birthday.  Of course Rob W is not going to spill the beans on headfi in advance of an update to the flagship - this would be carefully choreographed.
> 
> Anyway apologies for ruffling feathers, lets hope whatever the product is it is worthy of a 90 day buildup!


It's the mojo 2.


----------



## SoundeScapes (Nov 1, 2021)

andrewd01 said:


> lets hope whatever the product is it is worthy of a 90 day buildup!



The ’digital’ pulse array amplifier that has been discussed for many years now would certainly be worth a 90 day buildup.
That’s what I’m hoping for.


----------



## adrianm

SoundeScapes said:


> The ’digital’ pulse array amplifier that has been discussed for many years now would certainly be worth a 90 day buildup.
> That’s what I’m hoping for.


Sadly i can confirm it's not that  I'm still waiting on it as well


----------



## SoundeScapes

adrianm said:


> Sadly i can confirm it's not that  I'm still waiting on it as well


Oh, that’s too bad  
But let’s hope the Mojo2 is worth 90 days then


----------



## jlbrach

I think it is safe to say for the near future the Dave will be enhanced by adding m-scaler and m-scaler 2 etc


----------



## muski

Assuming it's the Mojo2, I wonder what the fourth light is for? The Mojo1 only has three.


----------



## Amberlamps

Nice pic/scoop @DJJEZ 

I’d be interested in buying a Mojo 2, I kinda thought Mojo 2 was going to be realeased as Rob said a while back that we were in for a small treat, but as we know, Rob and Chord don’t go in to detail regarding what products they have in the pipeline.

I wonder how much it will cost as I can’t see it being £400 like mojo was, anyway, I just sharted so I’m going to clean up, great scoop though


----------



## DJJEZ

Amberlamps said:


> Nice pic/scoop @DJJEZ
> 
> I’d be interested in buying a Mojo 2, I kinda thought Mojo 2 was going to be realeased as Rob said a while back that we were in for a small treat, but as we know, Rob and Chord don’t go in to detail regarding what products they have in the pipeline.
> 
> I wonder how much it will cost as I can’t see it being £400 like mojo was, anyway, I just sharted so I’m going to clean up, great scoop though


Mojo 2 is day one purchase for me as well. I had a mojo 1 and regret selling it lol


----------



## andrewd01

Mojo 2 with integrated M scaler?


----------



## Jawed

alxw0w said:


> It's mojo 2.
> Chord changed the foto. The original one was different and you could spot mojo2 shape easily.
> You can see first version here:
> https://web.archive.org/web/20211029113741/https://chordelectronics.co.uk/coming-soon


A 90-day tease can easily be for several products. Remember this:



I would venture to say that the current image is not Mojo 2. With Anni done, that leaves two. So something other than Mojo 2 seems likely.


----------



## alekc

Jawed said:


> A 90-day tease can easily be for several products. Remember this:
> 
> 
> 
> I would venture to say that the current image is not Mojo 2. With Anni done, that leaves two. So something other than Mojo 2 seems likely.



Indeed - this does not looks like a Mojo 2 but bring HTT2 volume ball to my mind. Don't want to spread any gossips. I guess we will just need to wait and see. The thing is I've almost decided on my next dac so I guess I will need to postpone this decision a bit while waiting for Mojo 2.


----------



## Jawed

alekc said:


> Indeed - this does not looks like a Mojo 2 but bring HTT2 volume ball to my mind.


Yes, I've been thinking of this as a volume ball, too, just like TT2.

Perhaps this is xMS e.g. a 4 million tap scaler, perhaps in a Choral range chassis, same size and shape as DAVE?

HMS has buttons for volume control, but in a new scaler this would be a volume ball?

Honestly, I'd rather have a dB readout for volume, like that seen on DAVE.


----------



## ufospls2

My Mojo1's USB mini ports both wore out, and the battery wore out entirely within a year and needed replacing. My TT2's motherboard needed fully replaced after a week of use. My DAVE never had any problems thankfully, but I'd be hard pressed to purchase another Chord product (mojo2) especially if they haven't even gone to USB-C fully for charging and data considering the premium the Chord name costs ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

A shame, as their products certainly have strong points.


----------



## tunes (Nov 2, 2021)

See next post.  

Sorry


----------



## tunes

Will the XLR out from DAVE allow use of the DAVE’s remote control for volume? Can both the RCA out and the XLR out be connected at the same time to two different amps if one is switched off?


----------



## genefruit

tunes said:


> Will the XLR out from DAVE allow use of the DAVE’s remote control for volume? Can both the RCA out and the XLR out be connected at the same time to two different amps if one is switched off?


yes to all


----------



## tunes

Thanks


----------



## Jawed

Jawed said:


> Yes, I've been thinking of this as a volume ball, too, just like TT2.
> 
> Perhaps this is xMS e.g. a 4 million tap scaler, perhaps in a Choral range chassis, same size and shape as DAVE?
> 
> ...


So I had another look at one of the "leak" pictures:







and I now think that the sculpted shape and smooth curves corresponds with a close-up, macro, picture of the "-" button. That "saddle" shape between the "-" and "+" buttons is also seen in this latest picture.

I have been wondering whether this latest picture was for a 50W per channel TT3 with speaker sockets, but now I think this latest picture is just Mojo 2 again.


----------



## DJJEZ

Jawed said:


> So I had another look at one of the "leak" pictures:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's definitely not a TT2 as the TT2 is chords most recent DAC. They will update every other dac before the TT2 lol


----------



## Jawed

DJJEZ said:


> It's definitely not a TT2 as the TT2 is chords most recent DAC. They will update every other dac before the TT2 lol


I'd ditch DAVE + Etude without even listening to it if there was a 50W per channel TT3 with speaker sockets. On the basis that it exceeded DAVE's transparency.

That, in my opinion, is why DAVE 2 is so far off (and may never be a thing). A new version of TT could easily surpass it.

Also a version of TT that is meant to drive speakers, instead of the TT2 hack which no dealer is going to willingly support as a speaker amp, is a more compelling product. The ~15W TT2 hack has turned into a product that Rob advises people not to use as a 15W amp, as there's too many gotchas.

TToby is 50W per channel in a chassis that's 7mm taller than TT2, The pulse array/amplifier is more efficient than an ordinary class A/AB amp like TToby so should have no trouble running in a chassis of the same size.

So that would make waiting another couple of years for the DX amps less, erm, frustrating. 

Sigh, wishful thinking...


----------



## Triode User

Jawed said:


> I'd ditch DAVE + Etude without even listening to it if there was a 50W per channel TT3 with speaker sockets. On the basis that it exceeded DAVE's transparency.
> 
> That, in my opinion, is why DAVE 2 is so far off (and may never be a thing). A new version of TT could easily surpass it.
> 
> ...


The only flaw in your logic is that, at least to my ears, Dave plus an external amp (Pass Labs in my case) is much more transparent than TT2 driving speakers directly. 

As an additional aside, I have owned a TToby amp but I did not get on with its sound quality and much prefer the Pass Labs but to be fair they are not in the same price bracket.


----------



## skootb

Triode User said:


> The only flaw in your logic is that, at least to my ears, Dave plus an external amp (Pass Labs in my case) is much more transparent than TT2 driving speakers directly.
> 
> As an additional aside, I have owned a TToby amp but I did not get on with its sound quality and much prefer the Pass Labs but to be fair they are not in the same price bracket.


I had the xa60.8s (before kids). They were killer


----------



## alxw0w

Triode User said:


> The only flaw in your logic is that, at least to my ears, Dave plus an external amp (Pass Labs in my case) is much more transparent than TT2 driving speakers directly.
> 
> As an additional aside, I have owned a TToby amp but I did not get on with its sound quality and much prefer the Pass Labs but to be fair they are not in the same price bracket.


Have you tried any other Chord amps ?
Particularly I'm thinking about Ultima line.


----------



## Triode User

alxw0w said:


> Have you tried any other Chord amps ?
> Particularly I'm thinking about Ultima line.


I did have a home demo on a SPM1200Mk2 for about 3 weeks but bought a Pass Labs XA30.8 instead after comparing the two (Later upgraded to the XA60.8 monoblocs).

I have only heard the Ultima amps at shows but I am not really in the market to change amps and am happy with what I have got so have not expressed any interest it trying them at home.


----------



## Jawed

Triode User said:


> The only flaw in your logic is that, at least to my ears, Dave plus an external amp (Pass Labs in my case) is much more transparent than TT2 driving speakers directly.


That's why I added the caveat, "On the basis that it exceeded DAVE's transparency."

There's every reason to expect that all of the design aspects in DAVE that make it sound more transparent than TT2 can be transferred into a "TT3" design. For example, the larger count of pulse array elements in DAVE is a feature that can be transferred.


----------



## tunes

genefruit said:


> yes to all


----------



## tunes

Why does the Bakoon/Enleum amp have 2 RCA inputs for each channel??


----------



## tunes

Why 4 rca inputs?


----------



## ra990

For two different source inputs, 1 and 2, I assume.


----------



## adrianm (Nov 13, 2021)

Does anyone else travel with Dave? Curious how you're transporting it


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

To me this new product characteristic looks like a metal 'milled' product. Others have mentioned new M Scaler. Could well be a new M Scaler minus the Blu MKII CD player?

https://chordelectronics.co.uk/coming-soon


----------



## ecwl

adrianm said:


> Does anyone else travel with Dave? Curious how you're transporting it


I haven’t “travelled” with Dave but I do bring Dave to my local head-fi meets.
I have used two Peak Design Everyday Messenger bags (13”) as my camera+laptop/iPad bags.
I find that Dave fits perfectly into these bags and I assumed that if there is enough protection for my cameras, there should be enough protection for Dave.


----------



## adrianm

DaveRedRef-III said:


> To me this new product characteristic looks like a metal 'milled' product. Others have mentioned new M Scaler. Could well be a new M Scaler minus the Blu MKII CD player?
> 
> https://chordelectronics.co.uk/coming-soon


It's most likely Mojo 2


----------



## Drewligarchy (Nov 15, 2021)

adrianm said:


> It's most likely Mojo 2



I agree - but it’s fun to wish.

What I’d love from Chord (and would beg them to take my money for) is a cost no object Ted Smith Obsidian style Dave 2 + M Scaler 2 with:

- dual box / sections connected via fiber optic
- larger pulse array on the Dave side
- 4 million tap m scaler
- Dual - DC4 Style, cost no object linear power supplies.
- 25 watt digital stereo / headphone amplifier
- built in Streamer via Ethernet/WiFi; Roon Ready

Imagine it would be quite expensive (at least Rossini level) - but it would expand on Chord’s already ground breaking technology while fully optimizing it - so ideally - it wouldn’t/couldn’t be optimized much further. Furthermore, it would elevate Chord into the level of MSB and DCS where they should be (and we know they are already), create an aspirational product, and I bet it would sell a bunch too.


----------



## ecwl

Obviously, we don’t even know if the new Chord product is going to be a digital product from Rob Watts. But let’s assume it is, I tried to do one of those Apple product rumor style analysis to see what product it’ll likely be.

First, Rob Watts has already said that his new ADC and Power Pulse Array Amplifiers are not ready. So we should assume we are getting a new DAC/upscaler.

Because of the supply chain issues, we should assume that it’s a product that’ll use an existing FPGA that Chord already uses in its DACs/upscaler. Preferably one that they have more stock of but not necessarily. So we are really limited to:
Artix 7 XC7A200T (M-Scaler), XC7A35T (TT2), XC7A15T (Hugo 2/Mojo)
Spartan 6 XC6SLX75 (DAVE)

Theoretically we could get Hugo 3/Mojo 2 but I think Rob Watts has said many times that these products are mostly thermally limited so I can’t really see how that can be overcome without a cheap Artix 8 FPGA.

As a result, we are left with two possibilities, non-mobile DAC vs Upscaler.
With an Upscaler, Rob Watts has already said that he doesn’t see how he can get much more out of 16fs upscaling from the XC7A200T but he has in the past used multiple FPGAs to get more computational power. He also mentioned recently that the algorithm and parameters used for WTA1 filters are more important so it is possible he can tweak those more to get better sound.

With respect to a DAC, he has said he is not working on a DAVE 2. However, he has also said that he can get more sonic improvements from improving the WTA2 filter (and maybe the noise shapers). He has said it was very difficult to filter out the noise generated by the XC7A200T chips so it’s also unlikely that a new DAC would feature that chip or try to improve the WTA1 filter.
With all that’s been said, I can only come up with two logical possible product conclusions:

Chord Choral/Ultima Upscaler using 2-4x Artix 7 XC7A200T chips for 16fs upscaling (with new WTA1 algorithm since you can’t increase tap length by much)
Chord Choral/Ultima 16fs dual BNC input WTA2 32-element pulse array DAC/headphone amp (that can only be fed by TT2/DAVE/M-Scaler/Blu2) powered by the Artix 7 XC7A35T
My strong suspicion is that it’ll be product #2 because

Chord is most likely to have an abundant supply of XC7A35T of all the FPGAs they currently procure
DAVE eventually would need to be replaced as it uses a much older FPGA chip
It is technically not a DAVE 2 because it is not a standalone DAC, you need to pair an upsampler/existing Chord DAC that can output it’s 16fs upsampling in dual digital BNC with it.
You can get better sound from the improved WTA2 algorithm, better noise shaper, increased number of pulse array DAC elements
The main counterpoint of the upcoming product not being a WTA2 DAC is that

It’s basically a useless unit unless you already own Blu2/M-Scaler or a TT2/DAVE
It’ll also probably become useless if you decide to upgrade to a Power Pulse Array Amplifier in the future (whenever that technology is perfected)
That said I could be way off as I’ve seen people predicting Qutest 2 which I guess is possible with TT2 technology. Or Mojo+Poly in one unit. Although the photos shown so far seem to suggest a Choral line product. 

I guess it is also possible that the Asian market told Chord that they want an SACD player so they’ll be releasing an SACD transport with two Artix 7 XC7A200T chips for 16fs upscaling or even just an M-Scaler with an SACD transport. 

Anyway, I think sometimes it’s fun to speculate and come up with crazy ideas but until the product is announced at the end of January 2022, it’s all silly talk.

Moreover, this could in the end be a new Chord analog product, say a Chord Choral preamplifier. Hahaha…


----------



## MarkusBarkus

Drewligarchy said:


> Furthermore, it would elevate Chord into the level of MSB and DCS where they should be (and we know they are already), create an aspirational product...


It can be fun to fantasize about new products, but while I can agree that the Dave can sound better than some other high-end dacs, that is not uniformly true, in my experience.

In its stock form, Dave (to me) is good. Add an MScaler and it's different, maybe better. Bypass the Amanero USB bloat with a Denefrips Gaia, and add a DC4 and now you're talking top-shelf stuff. Amazing imaging, pace and detail, even without upscaling or external software processing.

In my listening efforts, although a bit different in tone and weight, the deconstructed Dave was about par with the MSB Premiere dac, so not worth spending more money, IMO. Although adding a DC4 and Gaia to the chain, you're not far off in cost, even without HMS, which I moved away from.

However, the MSB Reference dac is (to me) preferable. I bought it. It has the detail and imaging I get from the dDave, but significantly more musical weight. But it's a lot of cabbage to advance the ball that far. 

Assuming the tech exists in the Chord factory to leap-frog the Dave set-up, it would still be a business, not purely technical, decision to launch an aspirational product, IMO. There are only so many idiots willing to fund that market space.


----------



## lovethatsound

Guys I'm sorry to disappoint you all,but chords new piece of equipment is going to be a chord fridge,just like the xbox one lol,chill out to those chord sounds,happy Xmas peeps


----------



## edwardsean

MarkusBarkus said:


> It can be fun to fantasize about new products, but while I can agree that the Dave can sound better than some other high-end dacs, that is not uniformly true, in my experience.
> 
> In its stock form, Dave (to me) is good. Add an MScaler and it's different, maybe better. Bypass the Amanero USB bloat with a Denefrips Gaia, and add a DC4 and now you're talking top-shelf stuff. Amazing imaging, pace and detail, even without upscaling or external software processing.
> 
> ...


Your use of the Denafrips Gaia to bypass Dave's USB has always interested me. I wonder if I might test it sometime against my chain: optical USB > Innuos Phoenix > Sablon2020 > SRC-DX > HF-CT2.  It would mean losing the dual BNC bandwidth to 768KHz, which I do take advantage of using PGGB. However, I wonder if the decreased upsampling rate might be offset by the simpler chain.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

@edwardsean I used the MScaler with Dave for 6-8 months, including with the Phoenix, which is a very nice piece. I also had the SRC box here and tested dual BNC with and without the MScaler. I also tried PGGB processing before it went public. 

For me, I settled on no upsampling sounding best in my current system. It would be a guess whether I am streaming or playing local files. I have an audio dedicated FTTH service now, so only about three feet of copper in the chain.

I am putting the Dave/DC4/Gaia set-up upstairs for a headphone system, although I just yesterday bought a pair of Omega Super Alnico Monitors, which I will drive with Dave in pre mode. I may add back the MScaler to the chain since it hasn't sold here. Lucky me perhaps. Should be fun!


----------



## sm60

MarkusBarkus said:


> It can be fun to fantasize about new products, but while I can agree that the Dave can sound better than some other high-end dacs, that is not uniformly true, in my experience.
> 
> In its stock form, Dave (to me) is good. Add an MScaler and it's different, maybe better. Bypass the Amanero USB bloat with a Denefrips Gaia, and add a DC4 and now you're talking top-shelf stuff. Amazing imaging, pace and detail, even without upscaling or external software processing.
> 
> ...


As a Labor Day gift to myself, I bought an inexpensive linear tracking Technics turntable for $500 on Audiogon just to see if I wanted to get back into vinyl. Huge mistake! The sheer musicality of this little elegant device shocked me. Well, one thing led to another and now I have got back into vinyl in a serious way. Got a far better turntable and phono stage and a high end cartridge. Almost all my listening these days is vinyl. My Dave and Blu Mk2 give me guilty looks from their now relegated positions on my equipment stands. I’m reminded of the scene from Toy Story.

Bottom line: for listening to music recorded in the 1950s-1970s, from jazz to folk to rock to classical, I find vinyl far more pleasurable sonically than Qobuz streamed bits decoded by M-Scaler/Dave. I’ll continue to use Dave for listening to new high Rez recordings, but that forms a small part of what I like to listen to.

Coltrane, Duke Ellington, Ella Fitzgerald, Ben Webster, Milt Jackson, The Beatles, Bob Dylan, Sarah Vaughan, and countless other jazz and popular music recorded in the 1950s-1960s sounds beautiful on vinyl, but excruciatingly bad on digital to my ears. I don’t know why, but I don’t care to. If this is the music you like to listen to, vinyl is it as far as I’m concerned.

Newly recorded classical music is of course only possible to listen to via streaming and Dave, so that’s what I’ll continue to use here.

I find I’m much happier with vinyl back in my house. I have discovered the joys of listening to mono recordings. The Beatles and Bob Dylan hated the horribly made stereo versions of their great albums. Hearing these on mono vinyl makes you understand why. These sound fabulous in original mono, not reprocessed stereo (Dylan’s voice and guitar and harmonica stay together in mono, not arbitrarily separated in fake stereo).

Obviously this is a personal choice. YMMV, as they say!


----------



## The Jester

Some of those early stereo recordings were ridiculous, music in one speaker vocals in the other, almost like they were saying “ See, it really is two different channels” 🙄
Using original 50’s and 60’s Vinyl pressings means they were taken from the shiny new analogue master tape, any digital versions had to have been taken from the same master tape that was at least 20 years old if done at the release of CD’s in the mid 80’s,
Also the earlier recordings were probably recorded on hand assembled valve consoles until the pre built consoles came along …


----------



## N Quarter

sm60 said:


> As a Labor Day gift to myself, I bought an inexpensive linear tracking Technics turntable for $500 on Audiogon just to see if I wanted to get back into vinyl. Huge mistake! The sheer musicality of this little elegant device shocked me. Well, one thing led to another and now I have got back into vinyl in a serious way. Got a far better turntable and phono stage and a high end cartridge.


I did the same thing last year, for context I am 56 years old, so grew up with Vinyl. I purchased a Rega Rp10 with Musical Fidelity Vinyl phonostage. I bought 20 albums within about three months, 5 of which were from the Tone poet collection…it cost me around $800 Canadian dollars for 20 albums. I think I was trying to relive my youth, but it turns out I missed being young and the great times I had back then. Listening to records sounded great, but became a chore, and I felt guilty spending that much money and not using the TT much.
Earlier this year I cut my losses and traded the TT in on other gear, and marked it down as another life lesson learned…an expensive one.
Today I am fully content with streaming, using my IPad to select my next album.
Good luck with your Vinyl journey, it certainly was another fun ride for me, but sadly the ride came to a stop In my case.


----------



## Ards

sm60 said:


> As a Labor Day gift to myself, I bought an inexpensive linear tracking Technics turntable for $500 on Audiogon just to see if I wanted to get back into vinyl. Huge mistake! The sheer musicality of this little elegant device shocked me. Well, one thing led to another and now I have got back into vinyl in a serious way.


Similar journey over past few years.   My digital setup is pretty much redundant these days and used primarily as a way to find music I want to own on vinyl.  Playback is 95% vinyl, 5% digital.


----------



## Jawed

Rob Watts said:


>


In the WTA 2 section is the HF filter implemented as a distinct set of coefficients for the WTA 2 filter, such that there are two sets of WTA coefficients, one without HF filtering and one with? Or is that block showing WTA 2 followed by a user-activated HF filter?

Presumably implementing the HF filter in WTA 2 would sound better?

How does DAVE do an instantaneous switch between HF off and HF on? It seems this would be more difficult if the HF filter was integrated into WTA 2.


----------



## Rob Watts

It's done with two banks of noise shaped coefficients - and there isn't a problem in switching the HF filter on or off, as it merely synchronously switches the banks in and out.


----------



## maxh22

sm60 said:


> As a Labor Day gift to myself, I bought an inexpensive linear tracking Technics turntable for $500 on Audiogon just to see if I wanted to get back into vinyl. Huge mistake! The sheer musicality of this little elegant device shocked me. Well, one thing led to another and now I have got back into vinyl in a serious way. Got a far better turntable and phono stage and a high end cartridge. Almost all my listening these days is vinyl. My Dave and Blu Mk2 give me guilty looks from their now relegated positions on my equipment stands. I’m reminded of the scene from Toy Story.
> 
> Bottom line: for listening to music recorded in the 1950s-1970s, from jazz to folk to rock to classical, I find vinyl far more pleasurable sonically than Qobuz streamed bits decoded by M-Scaler/Dave. I’ll continue to use Dave for listening to new high Rez recordings, but that forms a small part of what I like to listen to.
> 
> ...



Interesting post, for what it's worth I noticed little old Mojo sounds great with older recordings, its sound signature is sometimes even preferable to Dave. I recently added a couple Furutech NCF Clear Line's and noticed even poorer recordings are much more listenable and engaging, the quality of the power in a system definitely has an effect. Vinyl has many pleasant distortions that can make up for these deficiencies but at the end of the day as long as you're enjoying the music that's what it's all about.  Hopefully, many older recordings get re-digitized as technology improves.


----------



## alxw0w

So lets back to talk about music, shall we ?  
To all lovers of beautiful voice and contrabass type of music I strongly strongly recommend this album:
Musica Nuda - Live a FIP





Stunning music, particularly track: Io sono meta
But the whole album is just marvelous.


----------



## endless402

what volume setting would allow for a 5V output at the XLR? and what volume would be 5V at the RCA? 
my amp has a max input value of 5V


----------



## adrianm

Having just spent a week with solo Dave i have to say i forgot how amazing it is on its own. Could blissfully live with this.


----------



## Crazeenick (Nov 19, 2021)

Sorry if this has been asked before. 

I have a Chord DAVE without MScaler (I tried an MScaler but sold it as I personally didn't feel it added much).  My source is an Innuos Zen Mk3 - with stored music library of CD-quality FLAC files and I also use TIDAL Hi-Fi streaming service via the Innuos Zen.  The Zen feeds the DAVE via a high quality Chord Sarum-T USB cable.  I am unclear as to whether the DAVE DAC is able to handle the MQA files which TIDAL HiFi streams. 

TIDAL have recently changed their service such that they now have two different levels of HiFi service - a basic HiFi service (FLACs at CD quality) and a HiFi PLUS service providing hi-res and MQA files.  Having a Chord DAVE, I am unclear as to whether I will benefit from the TIDAL HiFi PLUS service with hi-res and MQA files?  Or should I stick with the basic HiFi service with CD-level quality?


----------



## DJJEZ

Crazeenick said:


> Sorry if this has been asked before.
> 
> I have a Chord DAVE without MScaler (I tried an MScaler but sold it as I personally didn't feel it added much).  My source is an Innuos Zen Mk3 - with stored music library of CD-quality FLAC files and I also use TIDAL Hi-Fi streaming service via the Innuos Zen.  I am unclear as to whether the DAVE DAC is able to handle the MQA files which TIDAL HiFi streams.
> 
> TIDAL have recently changed their service such that they now have two different levels of HiFi service - a basic HiFi service (FLACs at CD quality) and a HiFi PLUS service providing hi-res and MQA files.  Having a Chord DAVE, I am unclear as to whether I will benefit from the TIDAL HiFi PLUS service with hi-res and MQA files?  Or should I stick with the basic HiFi service with CD-level quality?


Stick with TIDAL HIFI. Chord dacs don't do MQA


----------



## Drewligarchy (Nov 19, 2021)

Crazeenick said:


> TIDAL have recently changed their service such that they now have two different levels of HiFi service - a basic HiFi service (FLACs at CD quality) and a HiFi PLUS service providing hi-res and MQA files.  Having a Chord DAVE, I am unclear as to whether I will benefit from the TIDAL HiFi PLUS service with hi-res and MQA files?  Or should I stick with the basic HiFi service with CD-level quality?



Or consider Qobuz which is high-res, but non-MQA. I think all thing being equal, high-res files are better sounding than MQA.


----------



## VladYR

Crazeenick said:


> Sorry if this has been asked before.
> 
> I have a Chord DAVE without MScaler (I tried an MScaler but sold it as I personally didn't feel it added much).  My source is an Innuos Zen Mk3 - with stored music library of CD-quality FLAC files and I also use TIDAL Hi-Fi streaming service via the Innuos Zen.  The Zen feeds the DAVE via a high quality Chord Sarum-T USB cable.  I am unclear as to whether the DAVE DAC is able to handle the MQA files which TIDAL HiFi streams.
> 
> TIDAL have recently changed their service such that they now have two different levels of HiFi service - a basic HiFi service (FLACs at CD quality) and a HiFi PLUS service providing hi-res and MQA files.  Having a Chord DAVE, I am unclear as to whether I will benefit from the TIDAL HiFi PLUS service with hi-res and MQA files?  Or should I stick with the basic HiFi service with CD-level quality?


MQA is a demonstrably lossy format. You’re better off using Qobuz or any other streaming service that offers at least cd quality content. Tidal has been running a scam for a while now.


----------



## Ciggavelli

VladYR said:


> MQA is a demonstrably lossy format. You’re better off using Qobuz or any other streaming service that offers at least cd quality content. Tidal has been running a scam for a while now.


The problem is Tidal has a better library. I prefer Qobuz, for the above mentioned reasons, but they don’t have all artists I listen to. So, I gotta have both. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## iDesign

Ciggavelli said:


> The problem is Tidal has a better library. I prefer Qobuz, for the above mentioned reasons, but they don’t have all artists I listen to. So, I gotta have both. 🤷‍♂️


I eventually dropped TIDAL once they began retroactively replacing albums with MQA formatted versions. Despite having a slightly smaller selection, Qobuz is far superior.


----------



## Ciggavelli

iDesign said:


> I eventually dropped TIDAL once they began retroactively replacing albums with MQA formatted versions. Despite having a slightly smaller selection, Qobuz is far superior.


----------



## MatW

Ciggavelli said:


> The problem is Tidal has a better library. I prefer Qobuz, for the above mentioned reasons, but they don’t have all artists I listen to. So, I gotta have both. 🤷‍♂️


Same here. I prefer to use Qobuz and the library has been growing. Tidal is my backup. I don't care for MQA, because albums with MQA are usually available on Qobuz as well. When my Tidal subscription runs out I will downgrade to hifi only.


----------



## Drewligarchy (Nov 20, 2021)

Ciggavelli said:


> The problem is Tidal has a better library. I prefer Qobuz, for the above mentioned reasons, but they don’t have all artists I listen to. So, I gotta have both. 🤷‍♂️



Cig - I know we don't listen to the same type of music, but Qobuz's catalog has gotten much better in the past year. I had both for a while, but then everything I listened to was on Qobuz. That said, obviously it's going to be largely dependent on genre.

What I really like about Qobuz is the sublime membership, which allows you to buy high-res albums at deep discounts. I like owning my favorite albums locally, so this makes it best for me - as I can buy what I want through Qobuz if an album peaks my interest.


----------



## Progisus

Drewligarchy said:


> Cig - I know we don't listen to the same type of music, but Qobuz's catalog has gotten much better in the past year. I had both for a while, but then everything I listened to was on Qobuz. That said, obviously it's going to be largely dependent on genre.
> 
> What I really like about Qobuz is the sublime membership, which allows you to buy high-res albums at deep discounts. I like owning my favorite albums locally, so this makes it best for me - as I can buy what I want through Qobuz if an album peaks my interest.


I like and have the Qobuz Sublime. I also use tidal as there are more Prog titles. Be careful with Tidal as they resample the mqa titles to remove the mqa for the cd quality versions. I keep the top level subscription as roon unpacks the mqa versions so you at least don’t lose more data.


----------



## MatW

Progisus said:


> I like and have the Qobuz Sublime. I also use tidal as there are more Prog titles. Be careful with Tidal as they resample the mqa titles to remove the mqa for the cd quality versions. I keep the top level subscription as roon unpacks the mqa versions so you at least don’t lose more data.


That's a good point, thx.


----------



## jlbrach

Drewligarchy said:


> Cig - I know we don't listen to the same type of music, but Qobuz's catalog has gotten much better in the past year. I had both for a while, but then everything I listened to was on Qobuz. That said, obviously it's going to be largely dependent on genre.
> 
> What I really like about Qobuz is the sublime membership, which allows you to buy high-res albums at deep discounts. I like owning my favorite albums locally, so this makes it best for me - as I can buy what I want through Qobuz if an album peaks my interest.


I agree 100%...the option to buy hi-res music at attractive prices is what makes qobuz a great service...incredibly many times I am able to purchase hi-res versions for less than CD quality...


----------



## AndrewOld

My hifi started sounding terrible yesterday; nasty glassy violins, generally unpleasant. I discovered that my DAVE had got set to DSD rather than it’s normal PCM+ setting. As I don‘t touch my DAVE very often, and use it via the remote, and it takes a  two second button press and a wait of 20 seconds to switch between PCM and DSD  I am mystified as to how this happened. Is there a way of changing to/from DSD via the remote? I have the small remote. Could I have sat on the remote somehow and changed mode? Or pressed some button on the remote by accident?. Any other explanation?


----------



## alxw0w

AndrewOld said:


> My hifi started sounding terrible yesterday; nasty glassy violins, generally unpleasant. I discovered that my DAVE had got set to DSD rather than it’s normal PCM+ setting. As I don‘t touch my DAVE very often, and use it via the remote, and it takes a  two second button press and a wait of 20 seconds to switch between PCM and DSD  I am mystified as to how this happened. Is there a way of changing to/from DSD via the remote? I have the small remote. Could I have sat on the remote somehow and changed mode? Or pressed some button on the remote by accident?. Any other explanation?


Yes it could happened using remote (aka sitting on it). You basically can change PCM to DSD mode via remote the same as with the balls on the Dave.
Press Menu -> Choose PCM setting (Vol+, Vol- buttons) -> Hold left/right arrow on the remote and Dave is changing mode.


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## Amberlamps

AndrewOld said:


> My hifi started sounding terrible yesterday; nasty glassy violins, generally unpleasant. I discovered that my DAVE had got set to DSD rather than it’s normal PCM+ setting. As I don‘t touch my DAVE very often, and use it via the remote, and it takes a  two second button press and a wait of 20 seconds to switch between PCM and DSD  I am mystified as to how this happened. Is there a way of changing to/from DSD via the remote? I have the small remote. Could I have sat on the remote somehow and changed mode? Or pressed some button on the remote by accident?. Any other explanation?



I’ve had some quirky moments happen with my old TT2, it would at times change modes by itself when the remote was on a table. It doesn’t happen with my latest TT2.

I think it was a case of ”heat makes things go funky” as my TT2 was roasting when it happened to me. My latest TT2 doesn’t break a sweat.


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## AndrewOld (Nov 24, 2021)

alxw0w said:


> Yes it could happened using remote (aka sitting on it). You basically can change PCM to DSD mode via remote the same as with the balls on the Dave.
> Press Menu -> Choose PCM setting (Vol+, Vol- buttons) -> Hold left/right arrow on the remote and Dave is changing mode.


Thanks, that’ll be it. I remember the phone went, I grabbed the remote in a hurry, pressed Menu instead of Mute by mistake and then stabbed randomly at a few keys. And of course it muted because I had inadvertently switched mode, then it came on again, and I managed to quieten it. I rarely use the remote button, so my fingers don’t know where it is.

The real mystery is why would anyone want to listen to DSD?!


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## Drewligarchy

AndrewOld said:


> Thanks, that’ll be it. I remember the phone went, I grabbed the remote in a hurry, pressed Menu instead of Mute by mistake and then stabbed randomly at a few keys. And of course it muted because I had inadvertently switched mode, then it came on again, and I managed to quieten it. I rarely use the remote button, so my fingers don’t know where it is.
> 
> The real mystery is why would anyone want to listen to DSD?!



When I was using solo Dave, I always enjoyed the DSD+ filter with DSD. I don't think it sounds good with PCM (the DSD+ filter). It's one of the things I miss using a tiny bit with m-scaler, but is outweighed by how good m-scaler is with PCM. M-scaler with DSD isn't bad - quite the contrary, but I'll look for PCM files, if available, because it's so great with them.


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## marcmccalmont (Nov 26, 2021)

Hi guys some advice please. I’m having my Dave upgraded with a Sean Jacobs power supply. I’d like your advice optimizing it. For the last 4 years I’ve been using an Aurender N10 with the spdif fiber optic output sounding the best to me. It seems a lot has evolved in the last 4 years, pggb, usb etc. What server would do Dave/SJ justice? What interface is optimum now? Thanks in advance for your advice and experience.I should add 99% of my listening is with loudspeakers and speakers that cast a large soundstage. Enlarging the sound stage would be a detriment increasing prat, detail, naturalness is what I’m after.


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## phonyx

I’m not sure you’ll notice anything? I used a UptoneAudio JS2 linear power supply on my TT and despite trying, I could not identify any improvement in SQ over the cheap stock switch mode PSU. It did look a hell of a lot better on the desk though!!


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> Hi guys some advice please. I’m having my Dave upgraded with a Sean Jacobs power supply. I’d like your advice optimizing it. For the last 4 years I’ve been using an Aurender N10 with the spdif fiber optic output sounding the best to me. It seems a lot has evolved in the last 4 years, pggb, usb etc. What server would do Dave/SJ justice? What interface is optimum now? Thanks in advance for your advice and experience.I should add 99% of my listening is with loudspeakers and speakers that cast a large soundstage. Enlarging the sound stage would be a detriment increasing prat, detail, naturalness is what I’m after.


Interestingly, Sean Jacobs visited me yesterday and we spent much of the day listening to my Dave + Mscaler with different configurations of his DC4 and ARC6 power supplies also with different dc umbilical cable lengths and cable types to try to arrive at a consensus as to what we thought was important for sound quality. Sean should be able to give you feedback based on what we heard to recommend configurations for your Dave power supply upgrade. Message me if you would like my thoughts from yesterdays listening sessions.

As to what server to suggest, well that depends on your budget. 

We were listening to ripped files stored on my Antipodes K50 using the USB output but taking that through a PhoenixUSB to an SRC.DX usb to bnc convertor to feed the Mscaler. Also, I have found that the Innuos PhoenixNET makes an appreciable difference to the sound quality and is the only solution that I have heard which sounds as good as not having the streamer connected to the network.


----------



## AndrewOld

marcmccalmont said:


> Hi guys some advice please. I’m having my Dave upgraded with a Sean Jacobs power supply. I’d like your advice optimizing it.


I would suggest the optimal thing to do is to leave the power supply of the DAVE to the guy that designed the DAVE.


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## MarkusBarkus

I recognize your comment may be categorized as "advice" as requested, but how is that helpful to a fella that predicated the request with the fact that he has already decided to pursue the DC4 pathway? 

Have you heard the Dave on a DC4 and just not preferred it? Or with a Gaia by-passing the Amanaro USB workflow? 

And of course, I have read Mr. Watt's comments about the matter here and elsewhere. I read everything I could get my eyeballs on, and talked to owners, and listened to the Dave with and without HMS, DC4 and Gaia.


----------



## marcmccalmont

AndrewOld said:


> I would suggest the optimal thing to do is to leave the power supply of the DAVE to the guy that designed the DAVE.


Would you detail the things you heard or didn’t hear when you compared your stock power supply to a low noise low impedance linear supply? Was it a Sean Jacobs?  What was it you didn’t care for and or did you hear no difference? Thanks  My only experience is with a Qutest my friend measured a 1.5 bit improvement with a Qutest using an MCRU linear supply and you can hear the improvement. I certainly don’t want to throw my money away so your listening impressions are welcome


----------



## AndrewOld

marcmccalmont said:


> my friend measured a 1.5 bit improvement with a Qutest using an MCRU linear supply


Would your friend care to publish those results on this or the Qutest thread so they can be responded to? .5 of a bit is an interesting concept.  And since a Qutest isn’t a DAVE, and an MCRU power supply isn’t what the guy is thinking of buying …..


----------



## marcmccalmont

AndrewOld said:


> Would your friend care to publish those results on this or the Qutest thread so they can be responded to? .5 of a bit is an interesting concept.  And since a Qutest isn’t a DAVE, and an MCRU power supply isn’t what the guy is thinking of buying …..


Again I asked for your listening impressions please


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...similarly, I preferred the Qutest on a Farad3 vs. stock. HMS too, come to think of it. Heresy! Wait, that's a speaker...


----------



## adrianm

MarkusBarkus said:


> ...similarly, I preferred the Qutest on a Farad3 vs. stock. HMS too, come to think of it. Heresy! Wait, that's a speaker...


Fwiw i preferred the stock psu on the M-scaler vs the Farad. And a battery is much better than both.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...batteries get good reviews, even from the creator fella.


----------



## Amberlamps

Speaking about power supplies, does anyone know where I can get one that can accept 100 - 230v input, and the dc output needs to be 16.8v with 2.5amps.

I can find the 16.8v part, but I can only get 2amp versions. Help a brother out peeps, I will make you rich if you do.


----------



## All Day Breakfast

MarkusBarkus said:


> ...batteries get good reviews, even from the creator fella.


As someone with an interest in batteries to avoid going down the route of expensive psu’s, special electrical chords and re wiring the house, I know nothing about what batteries to buy or what qualities/specs to look for. Happy to hear any advice you (or anyone) can offer for a Chord DAVE.


----------



## The Jester

Another query I haven’t seen answered yet too is the need for selected dual BNC isolation solutions that break the RF loop when using expensive power supplies, powering one component from a battery takes care of that one issue, surely such an expensive PSU would break the RF loop also ?


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## AndrewOld (Nov 26, 2021)

marcmccalmont said:


> Again I asked for your listening impressions please


I fear my listening impressions would be of little value since we surely use different electricity suppliers. Maybe even different mains frequencies and voltages. And I’m still trying to get my head round one and a half bits.


----------



## marcmccalmont

The Jester said:


> Another query I haven’t seen answered yet too is the need for selected dual BNC isolation solutions that break the RF loop when using expensive power supplies, powering one component from a battery takes care of that one issue, surely such an expensive PSU would break the RF loop also ?


I’m pretty sure plugging equipment in different outlets on a PS Audio powerplant accomplishes this


----------



## audio_1

marcmccalmont said:


> Hi guys some advice please. I’m having my Dave upgraded with a Sean Jacobs power supply. I’d like your advice optimizing it. For the last 4 years I’ve been using an Aurender N10 with the spdif fiber optic output sounding the best to me. It seems a lot has evolved in the last 4 years, pggb, usb etc. What server would do Dave/SJ justice? What interface is optimum now? Thanks in advance for your advice and experience.I should add 99% of my listening is with loudspeakers and speakers that cast a large soundstage. Enlarging the sound stage would be a detriment increasing prat, detail, naturalness is what I’m after.


I would keep the Aurender N10 with the spdif fiber connections and get a Mscaler and Opto-DX. In my experience if the Dave, Mscaler and digital source components are placed a few metres apart, the quality of the digital source component is not so important. The Opto-DX allows separating the Dave, Mscaler and digital source. I use 3 metre premium optical cables. I have also installed separate digital and analogue power cables, wired back to the consumer unit. My Dave is located between the Heisenberg power amps and loudspeakers at the front of the listening room. The Blu2 and digital source components are located along a side wall. This layout also allows the use of short analogue cables. You will not be disappointed with the Sean Jacobs power supply. The ARC6 significantly lowers the noise floor, allowing details and threads in the music to be heard more clearly. There is also a dramatic increase in bass weight and resolution. The sound is also more 3 dimensional and it is certainly more enjoyable.


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## Paul Bjernklo (Nov 26, 2021)

audio_1 said:


> I would keep the Aurender N10 with the spdif fiber connections and get a Mscaler and Opto-DX. In my experience if the Dave, Mscaler and digital source components are placed a few metres apart, the quality of the digital source component is not so important. The Opto-DX allows separating the Dave, Mscaler and digital source. I use 3 metre premium optical cables. I have also installed separate digital and analogue power cables, wired back to the consumer unit. My Dave is located between the Heisenberg power amps and loudspeakers at the front of the listening room. The Blu2 and digital source components are located along a side wall. This layout also allows the use of short analogue cables. You will not be disappointed with the Sean Jacobs power supply. The ARC6 significantly lowers the noise floor, allowing details and threads in the music to be heard more clearly. There is also a dramatic increase in bass weight and resolution. The sound is also more 3 dimensional and it is certainly more enjoyable.


Can you please advise what optical premium cable you are using. Just interested to know as I like your thinking in the rest of your set up. Thank you in advance!


----------



## marcmccalmont

Paul Bjernklo said:


> Can you please advise what optical premium cable you are using. Just interested to know. Thank you in advance!


I’ve had very good luck with lifatec tos cables


----------



## Triode User

All Day Breakfast said:


> As someone with an interest in batteries to avoid going down the route of expensive psu’s, special electrical chords and re wiring the house, I know nothing about what batteries to buy or what qualities/specs to look for. Happy to hear any advice you (or anyone) can offer for a Chord DAVE.


There are posts on audiophilestyle of significant battery arrays being used to power a Sean Jacobs DC4 in order to power a Dave but none has attempted to drive a Dave direct from batteries and I suspect that is a fools errand. The Sean Jacobs ARC6 was created in order to surpass using the battery arrays to power the DC4 and the consensus is that the ARC6 succeeds in being better than battery power to the DC4.

This post is a good place to start . . 
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...dio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=1149407


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## audio_1 (Nov 27, 2021)

Paul Bjernklo said:


> Can you please advise what optical premium cable you are using. Just interested to know as I like your thinking in the rest of your set up. Thank you in advance!


The premium optical cables were supplied with the Opto-Dx. I upgraded from the standard optical cables. Checkout the Opto-DX website. https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/products/opto_dx. Note also that 4 x high quality bnc digital cables are required for the Opto-Dx receiver and transmitter. I use 4 x 1.2 metre long Oyaide DB510 BNC cables.


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## The Jester

marcmccalmont said:


> I’m pretty sure plugging equipment in different outlets on a PS Audio powerplant accomplishes this


Quite possibly, but not what I’m asking in regards to dedicated high end power supplies …


----------



## adrianm

The Jester said:


> Quite possibly, but not what I’m asking in regards to dedicated high end power supplies …


I wouldn't count on it.


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## marcmccalmont

The Jester said:


> Quite possibly, but not what I’m asking in regards to dedicated high end power supplies …


Not sure what your after? I isolate Dave using tos optical connections and all of my equipment is plugged into a different outlet on the powerplant. What more is there to do? I guess batteries would guarantee isolation at all frequencies but I think Sean and others tested batteries against newer regulators and found lower output impedance and better sq with the regulators. I’ve never done the experiment.


----------



## The Jester

I’m sure your system works very well, and probably asking the wrong person, but consider someone just starting out and looking at a Chord DAC plus MScaler, apart from just plugging everything together with the supplied components what would be the minimum extra expense needed to take it to the next level by first breaking the well reported RF loop, will one item do the job on its own or is an upgrade of the dual BNC connectors, an upgraded PSU and a power regenerator all needed ?


----------



## marcmccalmont

The Jester said:


> I’m sure your system works very well, and probably asking the wrong person, but consider someone just starting out and looking at a Chord DAC plus MScaler, apart from just plugging everything together with the supplied components what would be the minimum extra expense needed to take it to the next level by first breaking the well reported RF loop, will one item do the job on its own or is an upgrade of the dual BNC connectors, an upgraded PSU and a power regenerator all needed ?


So your talking about the infamous “ground plane modulation” When I had a Blu2 there was a noticeable improvement with ferrited coax cables between Blu2 and Dave. Since then the Mscaler was designed with internal ferrites. And a company called audiowise has a opto dx optical isolator which would mitigate the issue and coax cables with ferrites. I did not replace my Blu2 with an mscaler so I haven’t done the experiment. Some swear by the mscaler others don’t I’d like to try one in my system to see if I like it. A friend of mine with MBL speakers didn’t. It cast too large of a sound stage for his taste and  as he measured jitter the upscaling proportionately increased the jitter. Chord claimes Dave is immune to jitter but as my sources jitter was reduced (Aurender N10 and ProJect cd box rs) the sq increased.


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## The Jester (Nov 26, 2021)

marcmccalmont said:


> So your talking about the infamous “ground plane modulation” When I had a Blu2 there was a noticeable improvement with ferrited coax cables between Blu2 and Dave. Since then the Mscaler was designed with internal ferrites. And a company called audiowise has a opto dx optical isolator which would mitigate the issue and coax cables with ferrites. I did not replace my Blu2 with an mscaler so I haven’t done the experiment. Some swear by the mscaler others don’t I’d like to try one in my system to see if I like it. A friend of mine with MBL speakers didn’t. It cast too large of a sound stage for his taste and  as he measured jitter the upscaling proportionately increased the jitter. Chord claimes Dave is immune to jitter but as my sources jitter was reduced (Aurender N10 and ProJect cd box rs) the sq increased.


Enlightening … thanks … 👍
Interesting too are the varied preferences from one persons ideal of a soundstage that has width and depth with the individual speakers audibly vanishing, usually due to more accurate transients and low level signals, to the other extreme of those preferring monaural recordings for the more realistic centre stage image of a solo vocalist, and even some amps providing a “Mono” switch for a similar effect, plus all those somewhere in between …. Like a fine wine, what makes some people “heady” just gives others a headache …


----------



## phonyx

Isn’t there a post by Rob Watts back at the start of this thread where he ran the Dave from a 12v DC source battery and measured zero improvement? So. If a battery is cleaner than a linear PSU, and the battery gave no improvement due to the design of the Dave’s power circuitry, linear PSU’s won’t add anything and encouraging someone to spend money in this area would be irresponsible. It’s also a very biased opinion when you do a sighted listening test with a designed of linear power supplies. Even suggesting the length of the umbilicus makes a difference…. Ok. Rob Watts says no difference measurement or audible, but a linear PSU builder can ‘hear’ an umbilicus?


----------



## Ciggavelli (Nov 26, 2021)

phonyx said:


> Isn’t there a post by Rob Watts back at the start of this thread where he ran the Dave from a 12v DC source battery and measured zero improvement? So. If a battery is cleaner than a linear PSU, and the battery gave no improvement due to the design of the Dave’s power circuitry, linear PSU’s won’t add anything and encouraging someone to spend money in this area would be irresponsible. It’s also a very biased opinion when you do a sighted listening test with a designed of linear power supplies. Even suggesting the length of the umbilicus makes a difference…. Ok. Rob Watts says no difference measurement or audible, but a linear PSU builder can ‘hear’ an umbilicus?




The DC4 makes a big difference. Try it for yourself, and you’ll see. Also, I do not believe Rob tried the DC4 LPS. Not all linear power supplies are the same


----------



## MatW

Ciggavelli said:


> The DC4 makes a big difference. Try it for yourself, and you’ll see. Also, I do not believe Rob tried the DC4 LPS. Not all linear power supplies are the same


There is no way to A/B compare, correct? So you're saying that based on memory?


----------



## Ciggavelli

MatW said:


> There is no way to A/B compare, correct? So you're saying that based on memory?


You can easily install and uninstall the different power supplies. I guess if you had 2 DAVEs you could do a quick A/B test. But, yeah from memory, after uninstalling the DC4 and going back to the stock, you can quickly hear differences.


----------



## MatW

Ciggavelli said:


> You can easily install and uninstall the different power supplies. I guess if you had 2 DAVEs you could do a quick A/B test. But, yeah from memory, after uninstalling the DC4 and going back to the stock, you can quickly hear differences.


How long does it take to change over?


----------



## Ciggavelli

MatW said:


> How long does it take to change over?


25 minutes the first time, 10 minutes once you get used to it. You can cut down like an extra 5 minutes if you don’t put the top back on. It’s really easy actually. Though, I was a bit intimidated the first time


----------



## MatW

Ciggavelli said:


> 25 minutes the first time, 10 minutes once you get used to it. You can cut down like an extra 5 minutes if you don’t put the top back on. It’s really easy actually. Though, I was a bit intimidated the first time


Thanks. I don't trust my auditory memory enough to be able to discern subtle changes with 10-15 minutes in between. Even when changing cables, which takes less than a minute. I need to be able to switch over instantaneously, like with the two DACs I've got hooked up to my setup two. I'd love to hear the difference between 2 Dave's with different power supplies, but fat chance of that ever happening...😁


----------



## Ciggavelli

MatW said:


> Thanks. I don't trust my auditory memory enough to be able to discern subtle changes with 10-15 minutes in between. Even when changing cables, which takes less than a minute. I need to be able to switch over instantaneously, like with the two DACs I've got hooked up to my setup two. I'd love to hear the difference between 2 Dave's with different power supplies, but fat chance of that ever happening...😁


I think Nick did just that actually. I don’t remember where he posted it, but I recall him writing that everybody preferred the DC4 to stock.  Maybe he can chime in if he wants.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Here’s the DC4 installation instructions I found on another site

https://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum/to...e-and-mscaler/?do=findComment&comment=2791750

It really is that easy


----------



## Triode User

MatW said:


> There is no way to A/B compare, correct? So you're saying that based on memory?


I originally compared side by side with a stock Dave and a Dc4 Dave. Then again that was how we compared when Sean Jacobs came to my house on Thursday. He wanted to use the standard Dave as a reference point for various other options he was trying. Yes it needs two Daves to do that to be sure but the effect is so profound that it is easily heard after swopping the supply on a single Dave.

One thing from Thursday’s listening was that the length of the Dave dc umbilical is important. 1m was clearly worse in my system. Best was sitting the Dave on top of the DC4 with very short (think 150mm, 6 inches) umbilicals but I wouldn’t lose too much sleep over 200mm or 300mm cables.


----------



## Triode User

Ciggavelli said:


> Here’s the DC4 installation instructions I found on another site
> 
> https://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum/to...e-and-mscaler/?do=findComment&comment=2791750
> 
> It really is that easy


Ah, that was my post. I am Fourlegs on the Wam (I ride horses) and that is a pencil sketch of me by my daughter!


----------



## marcmccalmont

phonyx said:


> Isn’t there a post by Rob Watts back at the start of this thread where he ran the Dave from a 12v DC source battery and measured zero improvement? So. If a battery is cleaner than a linear PSU, and the battery gave no improvement due to the design of the Dave’s power circuitry, linear PSU’s won’t add anything and encouraging someone to spend money in this area would be irresponsible. It’s also a very biased opinion when you do a sighted listening test with a designed of linear power supplies. Even suggesting the length of the umbilicus makes a difference…. Ok. Rob Watts says no difference measurement or audible, but a linear PSU builder can ‘hear’ an umbilicus?


My bell labs friend measured an improvement as I stated before on a Qutest . Let’s see what he measures with a dave and LPSU have you done the comparison yourself?


----------



## AndrewOld

I am thinking of using a Black Friday offer and getting a BLUETTI AC300+B300 Power Station Combo. As this can be driven entirely by solar power there is no possibility of ground loops.


----------



## marcmccalmont

I’d recommend this no ground loops either


----------



## Sampajanna

MatW said:


> Thanks. I don't trust my auditory memory enough to be able to discern subtle changes with 10-15 minutes in between. Even when changing cables, which takes less than a minute. I need to be able to switch over instantaneously, like with the two DACs I've got hooked up to my setup two. I'd love to hear the difference between 2 Dave's with different power supplies, but fat chance of that ever happening...😁


The effects of the DC4 are NOT subtle at all! They are massive, imho.


----------



## Sampajanna

I am not so great with subtle changes either, but the DC4 blew me away. As big a change as switching amps.


----------



## adrianm

Sampajanna said:


> The effects of the DC4 are NOT subtle at all! They are massive, imho.


As is the price, close to Dave itself


----------



## adrianm (Nov 27, 2021)

FWIW, while i personally would've considered DC3, the pricing on DC4 just reeks of opportunism. People might scream "cost of materials" but i seriously doubt it. Or that the improvement (if any) from DC4 to DC4 warrants 3 times the cost. Also there are plenty of hobbyists that can build you an LPSU with the same/similar materials for less. Minus the Sean Jacobs brand and the group of followers/partners pushing it all across  multiple forums.


----------



## marcmccalmont

adrianm said:


> FWIW, while i personally would've considered DC3, the pricing on DC4 just reeks of opportunism. People might screen "cost of materials" but i seriously doubt it. Or that the improvement (if any) from DC4 to DC4 warrants 3 times the cost. Also there are plenty of hobbyists that can build you an LPSU with the same/similar materials for less. Minus the Sean Jacobs brand and the group of followers/partners pushing it all across  multiple forums.


----------



## Ciggavelli

adrianm said:


> FWIW, while i personally would've considered DC3, the pricing on DC4 just reeks of opportunism. People might screen "cost of materials" but i seriously doubt it. Or that the improvement (if any) from DC4 to DC4 warrants 3 times the cost. Also there are plenty of hobbyists that can build you an LPSU with the same/similar materials for less. Minus the Sean Jacobs brand and the group of followers/partners pushing it all across  multiple forums.


I mean, maybe. However, you don’t buy a Sean Jacobs DC4 because it’s a good value, you buy it for the quality. 🤷‍♂️

 I first got introduced to his PSUs when I had the Innuos Phoenix and Innuos Zenith MK3. After hearing those linear power supplies, and I’ve had some others, I knew his PSUs were a step above others. So, I guess I wasn’t really buying the DC4s completely blind. Simply stated, he does good work 

Some people will say all dacs are the same (as strange as that sounds…you can even see some posters saying that on this forum). The DAVE isn’t the best value for a dac.  You buy a DAVE for its quality. Rob has proven himself with multiple products, so you can be confident he does good work.  It’s the same with Sean Jacobs, at least in my opinion


----------



## marcmccalmont

I had asked for help optimizing  my system  please respond if you have constructive advice,  commentary from those who have never even heard a modified dave let alone lived with one please contain yourselves!


----------



## adrianm

marcmccalmont said:


> I had asked for help optimizing  my system  please respond if you have constructive advice,  commentary from those who have never even heard a modified dave let alone lived with one please contain yourselves!


This is not the thread for modified Daves, so i see why most people would say stock is "optimized " 


marcmccalmont said:


> Hi guys some advice please. I’m having my Dave upgraded with a Sean Jacobs power supply. I’d like your advice optimizing it. For the last 4 years I’ve been using an Aurender N10 with the spdif fiber optic output sounding the best to me. It seems a lot has evolved in the last 4 years, pggb, usb etc. What server would do Dave/SJ justice? What interface is optimum now? Thanks in advance for your advice and experience.I should add 99% of my listening is with loudspeakers and speakers that cast a large soundstage. Enlarging the sound stage would be a detriment increasing prat, detail, naturalness is what I’m after.





marcmccalmont said:


> So your talking about the infamous “ground plane modulation” When I had a Blu2 there was a noticeable improvement with ferrited coax cables between Blu2 and Dave. Since then the Mscaler was designed with internal ferrites. And a company called audiowise has a opto dx optical isolator which would mitigate the issue and coax cables with ferrites. I did not replace my Blu2 with an mscaler so I haven’t done the experiment. Some swear by the mscaler others don’t I’d like to try one in my system to see if I like it. A friend of mine with MBL speakers didn’t. It cast too large of a sound stage for his taste and  as he measured jitter the upscaling proportionately increased the jitter. Chord claimes Dave is immune to jitter but as my sources jitter was reduced (Aurender N10 and ProJect cd box rs) the sq increased.


  I think the above is what you were initially looking for, right?

 As for advice. I hated the M-scaler when i got it, and first returned it. Turns out the issue was an ill fitting optical cable. Been a huge fan of optical for a year, but after getting a dedicated streamer, coax clearly sounds better than optical (QED Quartz reference if it matters, i'd say it doesn't really )
   Those issues aside, the M-scaler takes Dave to another level, but i'm using it with a battery, because while the increase in SQ is huge, so are the effects of RF noise.
         It doesn't just enlarge the soundstage. PRAT, Detail and naturalness ARE the main benefit. The reason some people think those are a tradeoff might be the effects of RF. 
   The sad reality is that to counter it you either go with ferrited cables + LPSU , or a battery. I personally like the battery. I've tried plugging the stock psu into my Aquarius (with individual filtering for each outlet) . The soundstage just collapses due to RF, and  you can clearly hear more background noise. 
        I have a love-hate relationship with the M-scaler. I can't wait until the new one comes out, with hopefully better noise containment. I would change it in a heartbeat. Even if it's the same number of taps. 
       I also agree that Dave is decidedly not immune to jitter. Have tested various sources via an optical cable and there is definitely a difference.


----------



## marcmccalmont

adrianm said:


> This is not the thread for modified Daves, so i see why most people would say stock is "optimized "
> 
> 
> I think the above is what you were initially looking for, right?
> ...


Thanks!


----------



## Sampajanna

I like the Innuos Statement with Dave and DC4 as they have similar power supplies made by Sean. I haven't heard other power supplies and I do think the DC4 is expensive. But man oh man is it unbelievable.


----------



## AndrewOld

adrianm said:


> and the group of followers/partners pushing it all across multiple forums.


indeed.


----------



## stemiki

I think DAVE is very good at exposing issues in the rest of the setup, especially the headphones. 

Optimizing the whole setup is quite complicated, especially when it comes to adding external amplifiers. 

For example, a balanced amplifier will give a noticeable increase in the soundstage which can create more listening pleasure even if it is unreal. 

Or an amplifier that introduces harmonic distortion that can make certain files or genres of music more enjoyable. 

I think the same happens when changing the power supply: as to the linear supply, these actually sound worse due to increased RF noise and noise floor modulation,

but for some it may sound better.


----------



## Sampajanna

I am not a partner nor a follower. Never met Sean in person and no affiliation whatsoever. I think the reason there is lots of buzz around the DC4 is that it is that good. I understand it is expensive, but a lot in audio is expensive. If you can afford it, though, you won't be disappointed.


----------



## Sampajanna

stemiki said:


> I think DAVE is very good at exposing issues in the rest of the setup, especially the headphones.
> 
> Optimizing the whole setup is quite complicated, especially when it comes to adding external amplifiers.
> 
> ...


The DC4 does not change the sound of the Dave. I have a very revealing system. I am not using Dave with headphones, but with speakers. To me, the DC4 just unleashed the Dave. I would describe it as an amplification of everything the Dave does well. My journey with the DC4 started because I was playing with power cables and they made a big difference--bigger than any power cable I had noticed before. I thought that if the power cable could make such differences, a DC4 must be even greater. I decided to give it a try and though I could at least sell it for a bit of a loss if I didnt like it. I loved it so much I bought a second one for my Mscaler....


----------



## stemiki

Sampajanna said:


> I am not a partner nor a follower. Never met Sean in person and no affiliation whatsoever. I think the reason there is lots of buzz around the DC4 is that it is that good. I understand it is expensive, but a lot in audio is expensive. If you can afford it, though, you won't be disappointed.


Personally, it can cost any amount, but I don't care. I never thought of replacing the power supply inside the Lumin nor that of the MScaler, much less that of DAVE.

It is not part of my logic to disassemble the electronics to modify the parts, even in the face of a possible improvement.

If a component of my configuration does not satisfy me, I prefer to replace it rather than modify it.


----------



## The Jester

Plus you can say goodbye to any warranty, even if a fault develops that has nothing to do with the power supply.


----------



## stemiki

Sampajanna said:


> The DC4 does not change the sound of the Dave. I have a very revealing system. I am not using Dave with headphones, but with speakers. To me, the DC4 just unleashed the Dave. I would describe it as an amplification of everything the Dave does well. My journey with the DC4 started because I was playing with power cables and they made a big difference--bigger than any power cable I had noticed before. I thought that if the power cable could make such differences, a DC4 must be even greater. I decided to give it a try and though I could at least sell it for a bit of a loss if I didnt like it. I loved it so much I bought a second one for my Mscaler....


Sorry, but if it didn't change DAVE's sound, what parameters did you notice improvement with?


----------



## AndrewOld

marcmccalmont said:


> My bell labs friend measured an improvement as I stated before on a Qutest .


There is no good reason to believe this claim unless your friend publishes his results. 

Has he measured a Sean Jacobs power supply. 

If he has, will he publish the results?

If he hasn’t, why would his as yet unsubstantiated and unpublished measurements of an MCRU power supply have anything to do with a discussion about Sean Jacobs power supplies?


----------



## marcmccalmont

Sampajanna said:


> I like the Innuos Statement with Dave and DC4 as they have similar power supplies made by Sean. I haven't heard other power supplies and I do think the DC4 is expensive. But man oh man is it unbelievable.


Since your statement is usb out are you direct into daves usb in?


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## sm60

stemiki said:


> Personally, it can cost any amount, but I don't care. I never thought of replacing the power supply inside the Lumin nor that of the MScaler, much less that of DAVE.
> 
> It is not part of my logic to disassemble the electronics to modify the parts, even in the face of a possible improvement.
> 
> If a component of my configuration does not satisfy me, I prefer to replace it rather than modify it.


This is exactly my philosophy: when you buy Chord, you are buying into a certain philosophy as to its design and sound. In this case, you are buying into the design of high speed switching power supply as a design ethos. Chord power amplifiers also use a switching power supply. You can say it’s what separates Chord power amplifiers from others. If you now modify one of the Chord power amplifiers to use a linear power supply, say made by Sean, it’s not a Chord anymore. You may indeed like the change in sound. That’s certainly your prerogative. But it’s not what Chord intended or designed. It’s not a price issue. Chord believes in the superiority of their Switching mode power supplies (e.g., fast response time). 

To take another example, I own several Audio Research Reference products (preamp, CD player etc.). Audio Research believes in tube regulated power supplies. In the Reference CD 8 player, they have crammed in an entire Reference 3 preamp line stage and power supply into its innards (5 6HP30 tubes and a 6550 power tube). This tube regulated power supply gives the CD8 its distinctive sound, and even though it uses the same Philips Pro transport as the Blu, its sound is entirely different. You could muck about and change the tube power supply to a Chord style power supply. That would certainly change its sound. You might actually like it. But it’s not an Audio Research Reference product anymore. Just like if you swap out Sean’s DC4 and put in a tube regulated external power supply. There’s an idea for someone! That would give a Chord/ARC hybrid! 

Audiophiles are inveterate tweakers. Somehow they believe they can improve the sound of brilliant designers with a simple hack here and there, even though statistically the probability of such a change improving the sound is near zero. Car enthusiasts do the same thing. It is a harmless but nonetheless expensive hobby.


----------



## adrianm

Sampajanna said:


> I am not a partner nor a follower. Never met Sean in person and no affiliation whatsoever. I think the reason there is lots of buzz around the DC4 is that it is that good. I understand it is expensive, but a lot in audio is expensive. If you can afford it, though, you won't be disappointed.


Didn't mean you personally.  And it's not just the price that's the issue, @sm60  summed it up perfectly. You're not just buying Dave parts at an Ikea, you're buying a product designed as a whole. And most of what you're paying for is expertise. 
    Could it be better? Sure. Do i want to spend 6-7k to find out? no, i'd rather put that towards whatever  dac will be top of the line in a few years. Be it Chord or DCS or whatever else.


----------



## The Jester

More like a little of both I’d say, everything this side of insane $$ is built to a price so somewhere in the chain there’s going to be a limiting factor, and obviously with the Dave that’s not the D/A conversion part.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

sm60 said:


> Somehow they believe they can improve the sound of brilliant designers with a simple hack here and there, even though statistically the probability of such a change improving the sound is near zero.


...this isn't a couple of fellas with a jeweler's screwdriver sketching out ideas on a bar napkin and tinkering around. The people who engineer the changes have skills and knowledge too. 

And BTW, people modifying things is how we learn. If folks want to post fan-mail about how pretty their little glowing balls are, that's fine, right? But I think we're not learning much from that.

If folks are tweaking gear it's to see what may be possible. And we might well learn something from that. Do you have only those stock generic power cables on all your gear? Maybe you do...but if you don't, you're tweaking too. Just a matter of degree.


----------



## audio_1

It amazes me that people who have never heard the Sean Jacobs DC4 or ARC6 power supply powering a Dave have such strong views about it! I imagine the reason that the Dave comes as standard with an off the shelf compact 3 rail switching power supply is space and cost considerations. Dave was probably designed to fit in the standard Chord Choral enclosure. Hopefully Dave 2 will come with a power supply commensurate with it's full performance potential. Dual optical inputs for the new Mscaler would also eliminate about 90% of the upgrades and comments on this forum.


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## marcmccalmont

audio_1 said:


> It amazes me that people who have never heard the Sean Jacobs DC4 or ARC6 power supply powering a Dave have such strong views about it! I imagine the reason that the Dave comes as standard with an off the shelf compact 3 rail switching power supply is space and cost considerations. Dave was probably designed to fit in the standard Chord Choral enclosure. Hopefully Dave 2 will come with a power supply commensurate with it's full performance potential. Dual optical inputs for the new Mscaler would also eliminate about 90% of the upgrades and comments on this forum.


How about a state of the art fpga that can handle 1m tap upscaling and the other filters, dual optical inputs and 2 dc connectors on the rear for those who want to experiment!


----------



## audio_1

marcmccalmont said:


> "2 dc connectors on the rear for those who want to experiment"


For a dedicated high performance Chord power supply designed by Rob Watts!


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## adrianm

audio_1 said:


> For a dedicated high performance Chord power supply designed by Rob Watts!


They should just contract Sean , double the price of Dave and call it a day. Curious how many units of that would be sold.


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## adrianm

marcmccalmont said:


> How about a state of the art fpga that can handle 1m tap upscaling and the other filters, dual optical inputs and 2 dc connectors on the rear for those who want to experiment!


The noise would  be inside the chassis so not sure what optical would accomplish.


----------



## sm60

audio_1 said:


> It amazes me that people who have never heard the Sean Jacobs DC4 or ARC6 power supply powering a Dave have such strong views about it! I imagine the reason that the Dave comes as standard with an off the shelf compact 3 rail switching power supply is space and cost considerations. Dave was probably designed to fit in the standard Chord Choral enclosure. Hopefully Dave 2 will come with a power supply commensurate with it's full performance potential. Dual optical inputs for the new Mscaler would also eliminate about 90% of the upgrades and comments on this forum.


It’s not like I can walk into Home Depot or Best Buy or Amazon and order a $10K external power supply for the Dave. It’s a specialty item ordered from the UK and you can’t audition it at home without buying it. You risk frying your $10K DAC if you mess up the installation. And even if everything goes right, you’ve doubled the price of your DAC, which is already obsolete. 

Just for kicks, for $500, I bought a Topping D90 DAC from Audiogon. Without getting into the subjective aspects of the sound of the Dave vs Topping D90, objectively the Topping measures better with state of the art measurements (check AudioScience measurements and compare with Stereophile‘s measurements of Dave). Plus the Topping handles codecs like DSD 512, which is beyond the capability of Dave. 

I’m not implying the Topping is better than the Dave, just saying that in the DAC world, things move quickly and a state of the art DAC from a few years ago may soon become hopelessly obsolete (e.g., see what happens in the home theater world when 10 grand receivers become worthless because they don’t resolve Dolby Pro Blah Blah or Atmos Super Duper).


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## Ciggavelli (Nov 27, 2021)

sm60 said:


> It’s not like I can walk into Home Depot or Best Buy or Amazon and order a $10K external power supply for the Dave. It’s a specialty item ordered from the UK and you can’t audition it at home without buying it. You risk frying your $10K DAC if you mess up the installation. And even if everything goes right, you’ve doubled the price of your DAC, which is already obsolete.
> 
> Just for kicks, for $500, I bought a Topping D90 DAC from Audiogon. Without getting into the subjective aspects of the sound of the Dave vs Topping D90, objectively the Topping measures better with state of the art measurements (check AudioScience measurements and compare with Stereophile‘s measurements of Dave). Plus the Topping handles codecs like DSD 512, which is beyond the capability of Dave.
> 
> I’m not implying the Topping is better than the Dave, just saying that in the DAC world, things move quickly and a state of the art DAC from a few years ago may soon become hopelessly obsolete (e.g., see what happens in the home theater world when 10 grand receivers become worthless because they don’t resolve Dolby Pro Blah Blah or Atmos Super Duper).


Is the DAVE obsolete though? 

It doesn’t allow for MQA files, but I believe that was a purposeful design decision.  I don’t care about DSD, but I guess that’s behind the times


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## adrianm (Nov 27, 2021)

sm60 said:


> Atmos Super Duper).


Atmos Super Duper is AMAZING. 
   I completely agree, Dolby Atmos  is amazing compared to classic surround. And i'm willing to bet in 5-10 years object based audio will improve imaging and soundstage so much that Dave or Vivaldi or whatever high end dacs we have now won't compete with Airpods playing back a properly recorded track in the new medium. There is a smarter way of doing things.
     Of course during our lifetimes most of the music we'll listen to will still be cd quality, but there will be newer dacs that also support new mediums. So modifying Dave or whatever else just feels like burned cash from my perspective as well .
     Sony and Apple are already pushing object based audio, how long do you really think it will take?


----------



## The Jester

All down to mastering, I remember an interview with Alan Parsons saying he’d like to master some things to 5.1 surround but that was a while back now, since then there has been “Pure Audio” Blu-Ray discs but it’ll need mainstream acceptance for title availability not to go the way of SACD, 2 channel stereo mixed on studio monitors is how CD, the resurgence in Vinyl, and just about all music online is made, even with the popularity of headphones I can’t recall seeing anything “Mastered for headphones”, so obsolescence of 2 channel equipment could be a long way off yet …


----------



## QuantumKat

sm60 said:


> It’s not like I can walk into Home Depot or Best Buy or Amazon and order a $10K external power supply for the Dave. It’s a specialty item ordered from the UK and you can’t audition it at home without buying it. You risk frying your $10K DAC if you mess up the installation. And even if everything goes right, you’ve doubled the price of your DAC, which is already obsolete.
> 
> Just for kicks, for $500, I bought a Topping D90 DAC from Audiogon. Without getting into the subjective aspects of the sound of the Dave vs Topping D90, objectively the Topping measures better with state of the art measurements (check AudioScience measurements and compare with Stereophile‘s measurements of Dave). Plus the Topping handles codecs like DSD 512, which is beyond the capability of Dave.
> 
> I’m not implying the Topping is better than the Dave, just saying that in the DAC world, things move quickly and a state of the art DAC from a few years ago may soon become hopelessly obsolete (e.g., see what happens in the home theater world when 10 grand receivers become worthless because they don’t resolve Dolby Pro Blah Blah or Atmos Super Duper).


Did the Topping sound much different than the Dave? I'm curious about the ASR measurement vs subjective experience contrast if there is any.


----------



## goodvibes

adrianm said:


> Atmos Super Duper is AMAZING.
> I completely agree, Dolby Atmos  is amazing compared to classic surround. And i'm willing to bet in 5-10 years object based audio will improve imaging and soundstage so much that Dave or Vivaldi or whatever high end dacs we have now won't compete with Airpods playing back a properly recorded track in the new medium. There is a smarter way of doing things.
> Of course during our lifetimes most of the music we'll listen to will still be cd quality, but there will be newer dacs that also support new mediums. So modifying Dave or whatever else just feels like burned cash from my perspective as well .
> Sony and Apple are already pushing object based audio, how long do you really think it will take?


Nope. If you prefer sound effects, fine, but I'll get my goosebumps from the what music can emote before being 'processed'. Hard enough to provide goose bump factor without 'enhancing' things for a format so if you don't get it, I understand. This idea that things are so much better is silly. I could listen to a source. electronics and speakers from 25 years ago that would be hard to beat today. Quad speakers, Naim 72/250 electronics with a Linn table/Tandberg or Nagra deck as source would more than hold it's own today. Why would the next 5 years be any different. Things that were ever genuinely good as opposed to just being a popular flavor of a period will always be good. The more you 'enhance' a product, like trying to make earphones image like speakers, the further away you'll get from the performers message.


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## Sampajanna (Nov 27, 2021)

I understand the criticism that the DC4 is expensive or one doesn't want to void warranty and open the Dave. I understand the argument against further investing in a product you may one day sell for much less. I am sure many of us will one day have other better dacs. What is silly is comments on the SQ of the DC4 from those who have never heard it. The fact is that it is a big improvement. Whether it is worth it in terms of hassle, long-term investment, etc. is a personal decision for each of us, but the difference is not subtle and is very positive.


----------



## sm60

Sampajanna said:


> I understand the criticism that the DC4 is expensive or one doesn't want to void warranty and open the Dave. I understand the argument against further investing in a product you may one day sell for much less. I am sure many of us will one day have other better dacs. What is silly is comments on the SQ of the DC4 from those who have never heard it. The fact is that it is a big improvement. Whether it is worth it in terms of hassle, long-term investment, etc. is a personal decision for each of us, but the difference is not subtle and is very positive.


I respect your choice. It’s a subjective assessment, not a “fact” as you claim, but that’s what being an audiophile is all about. I have no issues with your choice. 

As I’m typing this, I’m listening to a reissued 180gm mono LP album recording of Frank Sinatra called “In the wee small hours”, recorded in 1954-1955 and considered one of his greatest albums. I’m hearing this LP played back on a Technics SP -10 Mk2 direct drive table with a mono Miyajima cartridge. I can subjectively claim that on a great mono album like this one, the Miyajima blows away the latest DSD blah played back on the Dave. 

There’s something so tangible and real about true mono LP recordings played back on a true mono cartridge. It’s hard to quantify but it’s my subjective assessment. Frank Sinatra’s voice fills the room with a presence and realism that I don’t hear from even the best digital remastering. And unfortunately the ham handed digital remastering of Sinatra’s great recordings have not been kind to his marvelous voice. So, you want to hear Sinatra at his best, vinyl is your nirvana.  Much the same is true of The Beatles, Bob Dylan, Ella Fitzgerald, John Coltrane, Duke Ellington and countless other great singers and artists who recorded in the golden years of the gramophone from 1930-1970s. So I chose vinyl over digital for the most faithful rendition of this great music. No upgrade to Dave is going to fix the horrible remastering of analog classics in my view. 

So, I decided to invest in vinyl rather than upgrade my Dave. Others may make a different decision. For me investing in vinyl is not just about hearing the music as the artists expected you to hear them, but also about choice. I can sample many releases of the same classic album, and I’m not stuck with whatever Tidal or Qobuz dishes out.


----------



## Sampajanna

sm60 said:


> I respect your choice. It’s a subjective assessment, not a “fact” as you claim, but that’s what being an audiophile is all about. I have no issues with your choice.
> 
> As I’m typing this, I’m listening to a reissued 180gm mono LP album recording of Frank Sinatra called “In the wee small hours”, recorded in 1954-1955 and considered one of his greatest albums. I’m hearing this LP played back on a Technics SP -10 Mk2 direct drive table with a mono Miyajima cartridge. I can subjectively claim that on a great mono album like this one, the Miyajima blows away the latest DSD blah played back on the Dave.
> 
> ...


Respect this, indeed.and you are right that some subjectivity is always there In all things audio. I haven’t yet ventured into vinyl, but have thought about it for sure.


----------



## Progisus

From what I have read, most modern vinyl pressings are made from digital masters.


----------



## adrianm

goodvibes said:


> Nope. If you prefer sound effects, fine, but I'll get my goosebumps from the what music can emote before being 'processed'. Hard enough to provide goose bump factor without 'enhancing' things for a format so if you don't get it, I understand. This idea that things are so much better is silly. I could listen to a source. electronics and speakers from 25 years ago that would be hard to beat today. Quad speakers, Naim 72/250 electronics with a Linn table/Tandberg or Nagra deck as source would more than hold it's own today. Why would the next 5 years be any different. Things that were ever genuinely good as opposed to just being a popular flavor of a period will always be good. The more you 'enhance' a product, like trying to make earphones image like speakers, the further away you'll get from the performers message.


    Maybe I'm biased as a programmer in thinking you can program everything to be better. We're already deep in digital audio, but it feels outdated at this point. DSP makes cheap noise cancelling headphones sound much better than whatever closed back flagship you want in a noisy environment. 
   It's about the right tool for the right job,  It's not about "enhancing" anything. Object based programming creates data models of real objects and has them behave as real objects would.
      In movies at least, 7.1 is just an approximation of what it would sound like to have a car moving through your living room. You can hear some sounds from the front and some sounds from the back after it passes by. In a well made Atmos it sounds like an actual object is passing in front of you and generating  the sounds, not the speakers. There's definition and physicality to it.
    And this isn't just theory : this new  *Sony 360 reality* audio  system everyone is raving about uses just 4 physical speakers (very flexible in their positioning) to simulate 12 virtual speakers generating an immersive experience shockingly close to having all the physical speakers. 
https://electronics.sony.com/audio/soundbars/all-soundbars/p/hta9
 And you can get this experience for the price of a high end cable, so I'm wary about dumping more money in this medium.
   Not to mention it's already optimized for streaming, available, and it only continue to get better. Stuff will always sound best in their original medium as opposed to trying to "enhance it " , but a lot of people will not want to go to the length that @sm60 is going to  . I don't want to have 3 sets of equipment for different formats.
     Half the time when i look at my desk i just want to sell everything, get a Bartok and call it a day, worse as it may be. And i definitely see myself doing that before going the custom psu route for example.


----------



## AndrewOld

adrianm said:


> Maybe I'm biased as a programmer in thinking you can program everything to be better. We're already deep in digital audio, but it feels outdated at this point. DSP makes cheap noise cancelling headphones sound much better than whatever closed back flagship you want in a noisy environment.
> It's about the right tool for the right job,  It's not about "enhancing" anything. Object based programming creates data models of real objects and has them behave as real objects would.
> In movies at least, 7.1 is just an approximation of what it would sound like to have a car moving through your living room. You can hear some sounds from the front and some sounds from the back after it passes by. In a well made Atmos it sounds like an actual object is passing in front of you and generating  the sounds, not the speakers. There's definition and physicality to it.
> And this isn't just theory : this new  *Sony 360 reality* audio  system everyone is raving about uses just 4 physical speakers (very flexible in their positioning) to simulate 12 virtual speakers generating an immersive experience shockingly close to having all the physical speakers.
> ...


I agree, object based audio has fantastic potential. Encode objects in space and then let a replay system of arbitrary complexity work out what best to do with them.


----------



## goodvibes

adrianm said:


> Maybe I'm biased as a programmer in thinking you can program everything to be better. We're already deep in digital audio, but it feels outdated at this point. DSP makes cheap noise cancelling headphones sound much better than whatever closed back flagship you want in a noisy environment.
> It's about the right tool for the right job,  It's not about "enhancing" anything. Object based programming creates data models of real objects and has them behave as real objects would.
> In movies at least, 7.1 is just an approximation of what it would sound like to have a car moving through your living room. You can hear some sounds from the front and some sounds from the back after it passes by. In a well made Atmos it sounds like an actual object is passing in front of you and generating  the sounds, not the speakers. There's definition and physicality to it.
> And this isn't just theory : this new  *Sony 360 reality* audio  system everyone is raving about uses just 4 physical speakers (very flexible in their positioning) to simulate 12 virtual speakers generating an immersive experience shockingly close to having all the physical speakers.
> ...


I agree DSP can make things more interesting/closer to accurate on systems that need the help but that Sony system absolutely ruins the message of a proper 2 channel recording. Not saying you need to agree but any surround system creates an effect as opposed to recovers a stereo recording. More than 2 channel music which is hard enough to get right, tends to rob proper dynamic contrast. To each his own but a talented Jazz/classical quartet is a mess on something like that Sony system. I guarantee you that most here have never heard a properly setup 2 ch system, without additional speakers in room (running or not) and with a good enough source to get it... and I mean this, there's nothing wrong with that, It's still fun and we don't know what we don't know, but it leads to less than stellar assumptions. 

As for the Sony system, I never felt the need for more than 5 speakers and a sub in a surround system, 4, really but I get why some want a speaker for vocals. If your speakers have a believable phase curve that is constant to all 4 speakers, it should be able to recreate almost any space with the correct media. One plane can create height is recorded properly. Our ears don't have vertical receptor. That said, I've never heard a surround system that gives me goosebumps on more simply/honestly recorded acoustic material.

I know many will disagree and I won't belabor this. Just thought I'd give a counter position.


----------



## TheMiddleSky (Nov 28, 2021)

sm60 said:


> I’m not implying the Topping is better than the Dave, just saying that in the DAC world, things move quickly and a state of the art DAC from a few years ago may soon become hopelessly obsolete (e.g., see what happens in the home theater world when 10 grand receivers become worthless because they don’t resolve Dolby Pro Blah Blah or Atmos Super Duper).


While I agree DAC technology is so fast nowadays, it only implies to Delta Sigma chip based DAC. I think because the chip companies push their product so fast as well (AKM, Sabre, Cirrus Logic, etc).

While in high end digital converters, most of them don't use these Delta Sigma chips (Dave with its Pulse Array DAC), therefore the progress is slower, and something like Chord Dave or DCS DAC may last for at least 5 years before the company succeed bring something better to the market.

Delta Sigma DAC indeed has fast progress, as we can see "cheap" DACs nowadays sound much much better compared to few years ago (Imagine what small dongle dac able to do nowadays). However, I think they have their own limitation or "hard to exploit" when being compared to other type of DACs, as most of them can not reach the summit fi market (of course not all of them).

No, I don't totally relate ASR measurement with sound quality by what human listen in real life. At some point the measurement simply tell nothing about what we about to experience about a DAC. Have capabilities to playback DSD512 or DSD1024 great for marketing brochure, but people who really use it is extremely low in number, even in niche audiophile market.


----------



## ecwl

QuantumKat said:


> Did the Topping sound much different than the Dave? I'm curious about the ASR measurement vs subjective experience contrast if there is any.


Having listened to the Topping at my local Head-Fi meet, I can say as with all DAC chip DACs compared to DAVE, I hear these same issues with non-Chord DAC chip DACs:
1) Noise floor modulation that makes the music sound bright and harsh. To me, that’s the sound that “Digital” is famous for and drives people to vinyl which I think it’s a little wild. I also think it’s why some people like R2R or DSD DACs because the other distortions smooths out some of this brightness or harshness. But to me, DAVE’s approach no distortions with no noise floor modulation is better than other DACs’ approach of let’s blur out the noise floor modulation with more distortions.
2) Poor timing accuracy as in transients are smeared or blurred or just inaccurate. This is very hard to describe because everybody says their favorite DAC has great transient accuracy but they don’t if you’ve heard instruments live and compare them to DAVE/M-Scaler vs to a regular DAC. The challenge as we have seen in the M-Scaler thread is that some people are so used to poor transient accuracy from their system that they can no longer hear longer tap lengths’ more accuracy transient accuracy (or the difference between their own hand clapping and their distorted transient inaccurate DAC)
3) Less timbral accuracy which is related to the poor timing accuracy but in some music materials, I really can’t hear the difference whereas with orchestral works, it’s usually pretty obvious.
4) Because most DAC chip DACs would use a mix of analog and digital volume control and DAC chip DACs have poor low-level linearity, and I prefer to listen at lower volume levels, I always hear worse soundstage depth, sometimes even loss of microdetails/microdynamics and channel imbalance with DAC chip DACs including the Topping.
To me, the big surprise is that so many people can’t hear it. In some ways, it shoudn’t be a surprise because I’ve listened to so many systems with so many distortions coming from the recordings, the preamp/amp/headphones that people get used to and love. I myself, really had trouble hearing poor transient accuracy comparing Mojo and DAVE for like 1.5 years until I went to a live orchestral concert and then something suddenly clicked in my brain. I’m still amazed by how good our brain is at ignoring sonic distortions.


----------



## alxw0w

TheMiddleSky said:


> While I agree DAC technology is so fast nowadays, it only implies to Delta Sigma chip based DAC. I think because the chip companies push their product so fast as well (AKM, Sabre, Cirrus Logic, etc).
> 
> While in high end digital converters, most of them don't use these Delta Sigma chips (Dave with its Pulse Array DAC), therefore the progress is slower, and something like Chord Dave or DCS DAC may last for at least 5 years before the company succeed bring something better to the market.
> 
> ...


Dave is actually a delta sigma dac


----------



## adrianm

goodvibes said:


> I agree DSP can make things more interesting/closer to accurate on systems that need the help but that Sony system absolutely ruins the message of a proper 2 channel recording. Not saying you need to agree but any surround system creates an effect as opposed to recovers a stereo recording. More than 2 channel music which is hard enough to get right, tends to rob proper dynamic contrast. To each his own but a talented Jazz/classical quartet is a mess on something like that Sony system. I guarantee you that most here have never heard a properly setup 2 ch system, without additional speakers in room (running or not) and with a good enough source to get it... and I mean this, there's nothing wrong with that, It's still fun and we don't know what we don't know, but it leads to less than stellar assumptions.
> 
> As for the Sony system, I never felt the need for more than 5 speakers and a sub in a surround system, 4, really but I get why some want a speaker for vocals. If your speakers have a believable phase curve that is constant to all 4 speakers, it should be able to recreate almost any space with the correct media. One plane can create height is recorded properly. Our ears don't have vertical receptor. That said, I've never heard a surround system that gives me goosebumps on more simply/honestly recorded acoustic material.
> 
> I know many will disagree and I won't belabor this. Just thought I'd give a counter position.


  Well i agree if we're talking about 2 channel recordings, obviously this would have to be considered from the recording process itself. I don't mean playing stereo music on a multi channel system. As good as software would be, it will still sound terrible. 
    I'm using a Sennheiser GSX soundcard for gaming, which is the best virtual surround i've heard. The reason why it's so good is because it takes real 7.1 surround and uses a proprietary engine to mix it into 2 channels. It's very convincing because  the original information is there from all 7 channels, however it isn't up to a real 7.1 system standard.


----------



## sm60

Progisus said:


> From what I have read, most modern vinyl pressings are made from digital masters.


Yes, I expect that is indeed the case. My own assessment is that the distortions inherent in vinyl replay are kinder to historical analog recordings than the PCM modulated distortions. A lot of people get seduced by digital replay because they look at specs that are with respect to 0dB (maximum) signal level where digital looks superb. But the noise floor modulates with signal level. It’s not like analog at all. At -30dB down, CD replay is about the same as analog since you’ve thrown away a lot of bits. The lower the signal level the higher the distortion. So, you have to trade off one type of distortion for another. Ultimately it’s a subjective call which one you prefer. I absolutely love the convenience of digital streaming and the vast potential repertoire, but it reminds me of this  buffet places where you can eat as much as you want of potentially a huge number of dishes, but the preparation of each item leaves much to be desired.


----------



## QuantumKat

ecwl said:


> Having listened to the Topping at my local Head-Fi meet, I can say as with all DAC chip DACs compared to DAVE, I hear these same issues with non-Chord DAC chip DACs:
> 1) Noise floor modulation that makes the music sound bright and harsh. To me, that’s the sound that “Digital” is famous for and drives people to vinyl which I think it’s a little wild. I also think it’s why some people like R2R or DSD DACs because the other distortions smooths out some of this brightness or harshness. But to me, DAVE’s approach no distortions with no noise floor modulation is better than other DACs’ approach of let’s blur out the noise floor modulation with more distortions.
> 2) Poor timing accuracy as in transients are smeared or blurred or just inaccurate. This is very hard to describe because everybody says their favorite DAC has great transient accuracy but they don’t if you’ve heard instruments live and compare them to DAVE/M-Scaler vs to a regular DAC. The challenge as we have seen in the M-Scaler thread is that some people are so used to poor transient accuracy from their system that they can no longer hear longer tap lengths’ more accuracy transient accuracy (or the difference between their own hand clapping and their distorted transient inaccurate DAC)
> 3) Less timbral accuracy which is related to the poor timing accuracy but in some music materials, I really can’t hear the difference whereas with orchestral works, it’s usually pretty obvious.
> ...


Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I was worried that SINAD wasn't everything that could be measured.

Seems to me the "perfect" DAC would both measure well and check all of the boxes you've listed.


----------



## QuantumKat

ecwl said:


> Having listened to the Topping at my local Head-Fi meet, I can say as with all DAC chip DACs compared to DAVE, I hear these same issues with non-Chord DAC chip DACs:
> 1) Noise floor modulation that makes the music sound bright and harsh. To me, that’s the sound that “Digital” is famous for and drives people to vinyl which I think it’s a little wild. I also think it’s why some people like R2R or DSD DACs because the other distortions smooths out some of this brightness or harshness. But to me, DAVE’s approach no distortions with no noise floor modulation is better than other DACs’ approach of let’s blur out the noise floor modulation with more distortions.
> 2) Poor timing accuracy as in transients are smeared or blurred or just inaccurate. This is very hard to describe because everybody says their favorite DAC has great transient accuracy but they don’t if you’ve heard instruments live and compare them to DAVE/M-Scaler vs to a regular DAC. The challenge as we have seen in the M-Scaler thread is that some people are so used to poor transient accuracy from their system that they can no longer hear longer tap lengths’ more accuracy transient accuracy (or the difference between their own hand clapping and their distorted transient inaccurate DAC)
> 3) Less timbral accuracy which is related to the poor timing accuracy but in some music materials, I really can’t hear the difference whereas with orchestral works, it’s usually pretty obvious.
> ...


Bartok vs. Dave vs. Mola Mola Tambaqui?


----------



## The Jester

ecwl said:


> Having listened to the Topping at my local Head-Fi meet, I can say as with all DAC chip DACs compared to DAVE, I hear these same issues with non-Chord DAC chip DACs:
> 1) Noise floor modulation that makes the music sound bright and harsh. To me, that’s the sound that “Digital” is famous for and drives people to vinyl which I think it’s a little wild. I also think it’s why some people like R2R or DSD DACs because the other distortions smooths out some of this brightness or harshness. But to me, DAVE’s approach no distortions with no noise floor modulation is better than other DACs’ approach of let’s blur out the noise floor modulation with more distortions.
> 2) Poor timing accuracy as in transients are smeared or blurred or just inaccurate. This is very hard to describe because everybody says their favorite DAC has great transient accuracy but they don’t if you’ve heard instruments live and compare them to DAVE/M-Scaler vs to a regular DAC. The challenge as we have seen in the M-Scaler thread is that some people are so used to poor transient accuracy from their system that they can no longer hear longer tap lengths’ more accuracy transient accuracy (or the difference between their own hand clapping and their distorted transient inaccurate DAC)
> 3) Less timbral accuracy which is related to the poor timing accuracy but in some music materials, I really can’t hear the difference whereas with orchestral works, it’s usually pretty obvious.
> ...


More that the brain has to continually work to adjust to timing fluctuations amongst other things, the harder it has to work the faster listener fatigue sets in …


----------



## adrianm

QuantumKat said:


> Bartok vs. Dave vs. Mola Mola Tambaqui?


No Bartok but the conclusion seems to be the same :


----------



## sm60

QuantumKat said:


> Did the Topping sound much different than the Dave? I'm curious about the ASR measurement vs subjective experience contrast if there is any.


I haven’t done a detailed comparison of Dave vs the Topping DAC. Part of my reason for getting the Topping was to avoid input switching with the Blu2/Dave, which seems to mess it up. I find the Chord duo works great for streaming, but any disruption (e.g., input changes or power cycling) totally messes it up and it takes a while for the duo to sync back up without crazy digital noise. 

I avoid using the Blu2 transport as well, which as far as I’m concerned is total garbage. The Audio Research CD8 that I have uses the same Philips Pro transport, yet works far far better than the Blu2. Disc reading is instantaneous with the CD8. Audio Research has been making CD players for 20+ years and their long experience with the Philips Pro transport shows. The mechanism is highly damped and noiseless. The Blu2 clatters and takes ages to read the TOC on many CDs. Too often it chokes after a few minutes. Fortunately the M-scaler works great with the Blu2 off! 

Initial impressions of the Topping are positive. It is a bit softer sounding than the M-scaled Dave. I find the Dave with M-scaler quite analytical sounding. It’s like increasing the sharpening control on your TV. It seems like you’re getting more detail. The first rule the professional TV/front projector calibrators tell you is to turn the damn sharpening control down because all it adds is noise. The real world has soft edges, not artificially sharpened ones. 

The Topping shows you the power of digital miniaturization — It’s the size and weight of a small paperback book and works quietly and flawlessly without the drama of the Chord duo, which lights up like a Christmas tree every time the playlist ends or there is a format change (Chord likes disco style flashing lights, I guess). Topping uses an OLED display that is less jarring than Chord’s Times Square billboard like display. 

But I have to do a more thorough evaluation. But for $500, it’s a screaming bargain. I got the discontinued model with the better AKM DAC. That factory sadly burned down recently so Topping now uses a different DAC.


----------



## QuantumKat

adrianm said:


> No Bartok but the conclusion seems to be the same :



Nice...

Looks like I'm down to Chord Dave w/ mScaler vs. Bartok (or Rossini).


----------



## adrianm

QuantumKat said:


> Nice...
> 
> Looks like I'm down to Chord Dave w/ mScaler vs. Bartok (or Rossini).


One thing to keep in mind is that the M-scaler does come with some headaches attached (RF noise so either ferrite cables or a battery), but there is a new , Choral chassis one coming out next year which will hopefully address them. 
    And you also have to consider a separate streamer, which frustratingly also makes a difference. So not as elegant , but a lot of people here would rather have this than the DCS stuff. 
    You might say the DCS stuff gets software update to keep it relevant, however with Dave you're essentially getting software + hardware updates in the form of a new M-scaler, which i'd rather have to be honest, software can only get you so far. 
    You should definitely audition the combos for yourself and consider Dave and the M-scaler a package deal.


----------



## QuantumKat

adrianm said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that the M-scaler does come with some headaches attached (RF noise so either ferrite cables or a battery), but there is a new , Choral chassis one coming out next year which will hopefully address them.
> And you also have to consider a separate streamer, which frustratingly also makes a difference. So not as elegant , but a lot of people here would rather have this than the DCS stuff.
> You might say the DCS stuff gets software update to keep it relevant, however with Dave you're essentially getting software + hardware updates in the form of a new M-scaler, which i'd rather have to be honest, software can only get you so far.
> You should definitely audition the combos for yourself and consider Dave and the M-scaler a package deal.


The all-in-one convenience factor is making me lean Bartok. Once I get an mScaler with the Dave, the price isn't much different anymore.


----------



## The Jester

All FPGA chips are reprogrammable so there’s 2 paths, with Chord it seems “job done” in optimising software for a certain size FPGA and move on with upcoming newer hardware, or continue optimising with regular software updates, the cynical may suggest that could be used to fine tune a “house sound” more pleasing to owners and reviewers than any sonic improvements ?


----------



## sm60

adrianm said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that the M-scaler does come with some headaches attached (RF noise so either ferrite cables or a battery), but there is a new , Choral chassis one coming out next year which will hopefully address them.
> And you also have to consider a separate streamer, which frustratingly also makes a difference. So not as elegant , but a lot of people here would rather have this than the DCS stuff.
> You might say the DCS stuff gets software update to keep it relevant, however with Dave you're essentially getting software + hardware updates in the form of a new M-scaler, which i'd rather have to be honest, software can only get you so far.
> You should definitely audition the combos for yourself and consider Dave and the M-scaler a package deal.


Amen to that. One lesson owning the Chord duo has taught me is that the M-scaler upscaling game is not worth the candle. The need for garden hose sized coax cables strikes me like this is entirely a crazy solution! My duo is extremely sensitive to RF noise. For this reason I wouldn’t recommend the duo to anyone but a crazy audiophile willing to live on the bleeding edge.


----------



## adrianm

sm60 said:


> For this reason I wouldn’t recommend the duo to anyone but a crazy audiophile willing to live on the bleeding edge.





QuantumKat said:


> The all-in-one convenience factor is making me lean Bartok. Once I get an mScaler with the Dave, the price isn't much different anymore.


Agreed, one thing tipping the scale in Chord's favor is discounts available will make it cheaper than the Bartok while also sounding better. However, if you do eventually go down the crazy custom PSU route a lot of people are going... at this point i'm throwing my hands in the air and saying i've had enough   I don't care if it does sound better than the Vivaldi stack as people claim, I'd rather live with a worse sounding Bartok.
     It's best to be realistic though : if you do go down the Bartok route you'll also probably add the Rossini clock later as it's the only upgrade path available. Not as easy to tinker with that.


----------



## The Jester

There’s still mains power regenerators …. A dedicated power line from the fuse box, upgraded power cables ….
I’m going for a lie down now … 🤔


----------



## AndrewOld (Nov 28, 2021)

sm60 said:


> The need for garden hose sized coax cables strikes me like this is entirely a crazy solution!


Indeed it is. Especially  when the guy manufacturing and advocating those cables now does not actually use the M Scaler for replaying non-streamed music.

Fourlegs aka Triode User aka Wave Audio says:

"I also retain the mscaler (with a dedicated DC4) in my system for streaming but i much prefer 32bit PGGB files to go direct to DC4 Dave by usb rather than to take them through the mscaler."


https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...ew-of-math-and-magic/page/26/#comment-1140829


----------



## audio_1

QuantumKat said:


> The all-in-one convenience factor is making me lean Bartok. Once I get an mScaler with the Dave, the price isn't much different anymore.


Have you compared the Bartok and a properly setup Dave / MScaler in the same system? I compared a Dave with the Vivaldi and couldn't believe how much better the Dave was in all respects. I immediately purchased the Dave. Please see my previous posts about the comparison. Unfortunately Dave and the Mscaler are not perfect, but they are still better than the competition. Hopefully the new Mscaler and Dave 2 when it arrives will address the issues that can be tweaked out of the original combo.


----------



## audio_1

sm60 said:


> Amen to that. One lesson owning the Chord duo has taught me is that the M-scaler upscaling game is not worth the candle. The need for garden hose sized coax cables strikes me like this is entirely a crazy solution! My duo is extremely sensitive to RF noise. For this reason I wouldn’t recommend the duo to anyone but a crazy audiophile willing to live on the bleeding edge.


The Opto-DX is a much better solution. It has so many other advantages too.


----------



## QuantumKat

audio_1 said:


> Have you compared the Bartok and a properly setup Dave / MScaler in the same system? I compared a Dave with the Vivaldi and couldn't believe how much better the Dave was in all respects. I immediately purchased the Dave. Please see my previous posts about the comparison. Unfortunately Dave and the Mscaler are not perfect, but they are still better than the competition. Hopefully the new Mscaler and Dave 2 when it arrives will address the issues that can be tweaked out of the original combo.


Do we know when those new pieces are coming out? 👀


----------



## adrianm

QuantumKat said:


> Do we know when those new pieces are coming out? 👀


Dave 2 isn't confirmed so i think that's just wishful thinking, however the new M-scaler might be out next year as it has been confirmed to be in the works. Since it will match Dave in appearance i wouldn't count on a Dave 2 soon.


----------



## adrianm

audio_1 said:


> The Opto-DX is a much better solution. It has so many other advantages too.


Are you using it with the Opto dx on batteries or LPSUs?


----------



## QuantumKat

audio_1 said:


> Have you compared the Bartok and a properly setup Dave / MScaler in the same system? I compared a Dave with the Vivaldi and couldn't believe how much better the Dave was in all respects. I immediately purchased the Dave. Please see my previous posts about the comparison. Unfortunately Dave and the Mscaler are not perfect, but they are still better than the competition. Hopefully the new Mscaler and Dave 2 when it arrives will address the issues that can be tweaked out of the original combo.


I haven't figured out how to audition them yet. The pandemic has made things very complicated. Outside of spending a lot of money in used gear and reselling the one I like less, I dunno. I'll keep trying to hunt down audio stores I guess. No clue, sadly.


----------



## muski

adrianm said:


> Are you using it with the Opto dx on batteries or LPSUs?


FWIW, I use an Uptone LPS-1.2 on the TX side and a PowerAdd battery on the RX side...


----------



## audio_1 (Nov 29, 2021)

adrianm said:


> Are you using it with the Opto dx on batteries or LPSUs?


I have a Farad Super3 for the Opto-DX R and an IFI ipower for the Opto-DX T. I initially used a 12 volt AGM 34Ah battery to power the Opto-DX R. The battery would last weeks, but it was a nuisance charging it and not knowing the soc. I am considering getting a second Farad Super3 for the Opto-DX T, but they are relatively expensive for probably no improvement in sound quality.


----------



## goodvibes

adrianm said:


> Well i agree if we're talking about 2 channel recordings, obviously this would have to be considered from the recording process itself. I don't mean playing stereo music on a multi channel system. As good as software would be, it will still sound terrible.
> I'm using a Sennheiser GSX soundcard for gaming, which is the best virtual surround i've heard. The reason why it's so good is because it takes real 7.1 surround and uses a proprietary engine to mix it into 2 channels. It's very convincing because  the original information is there from all 7 channels, however it isn't up to a real 7.1 system standard.


It's a 2ch music device, Dave thread.


----------



## adrianm

audio_1 said:


> I have a Farad Super3 for the Opto-DX R and an IFI ipower for the Opto-DX T. I initially used a 12 volt AGM 34Ah battery to power the Opto-DX R. The battery would last weeks, but it was a nuisance charging it and not knowing the soc. I am considering getting a second Farad Super3 for the Opto-DX T, but they are relatively expensive for probably no improvement in sound quality.


I'm not a big fan of IFI, but this does look a lot more cost effective than the Farad :
https://ifi-audio.com/products/ipower-elite/
Also skeptical regarding how much the psu could improve the performance of the Opto-Dx or M-scaler. When i tried the Farad Super 3 with the M-scaler i found it worse than the stock brick. There was clearly more RF. So i stuck to the battery.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Nov 30, 2021)

adrianm said:


> I'm not a big fan of IFI, but this does look a lot more cost effective than the Farad :
> https://ifi-audio.com/products/ipower-elite/
> Also skeptical regarding how much the psu could improve the performance of the Opto-Dx or M-scaler. When i tried the Farad Super 3 with the M-scaler i found it worse than the stock brick. There was clearly more RF. So i stuck to the battery.


My experience with iFi has been positive
With a Qutest the iFi was better sounding than the wall wart and an MCRU was better yet. I’m planning on using an iFi for a optical to Ethernet converter Probably a good match for the opto dx and other low power devices. I’ve got a friend on a budget so he is using an iFi for his Qutest usb from a Mac book pro and a silver dragon usb cable, sounds really nice well above its price point.


----------



## Vindication

CBR954RR said:


> Hope not I've just bought a new Dave 😬


Me too. I'd be hurt. lol


----------



## iDesign (Dec 2, 2021)

CBR954RR said:


> Hope not I've just bought a new Dave 😬


Your only regret will be not having bought it sooner once you hear what the DAVE is capable of. I’m pleased to see that Rob Watts is focusing on other projects like a new M Scaler that build upon the DAVE platform and bring it to an even higher level. That approach will serve Chord and loyal customers better than a DAVE 2.


----------



## Halimj7

How would you guys compare the Dave’s sound signature to the TT2? I have heard it is more mid focused but still very balanced and natural. 

And what about any DMP-Z1 comparisons? They seem very comparable.


----------



## DJJEZ (Dec 4, 2021)

Halimj7 said:


> How would you guys compare the Dave’s sound signature to the TT2? I have heard it is more mid focused but still very balanced and natural.
> 
> And what about any DMP-Z1 comparisons? They seem very comparable.


TT2 is warmer with more tonal density. DAVE is dead neutral with crazy resolution and betters the TT2 in every aspect (better bass, bigger soundstage, realism etc) apart from warmth and tonal density.


----------



## Triode User

DJJEZ said:


> TT2 is warmer with more tonal density. DAVE is dead neutral with crazy resolution and betters the TT2 in every aspect (better bass, bigger soundstage, realism etc) apart from warmth and tonal density.


I would just add that compared to the Dave I find the TT2 bass to sound muddy and indistinct Compared to the Dave bass which is tight and deep.


----------



## Halimj7

Triode User said:


> I would just add that compared to the Dave I find the TT2 bass to sound muddy and indistinct Compared to the Dave bass which is tight and deep.


Any comparison to the Sony DMP-Z1?


----------



## Triode User

Halimj7 said:


> Any comparison to the Sony DMP-Z1?


Sorry, no.


----------



## DJJEZ

Triode User said:


> I would just add that compared to the Dave I find the TT2 bass to sound muddy and indistinct Compared to the Dave bass which is tight and deep.


I agree. The dave bass is way better


----------



## adrianm

Halimj7 said:


> Any comparison to the Sony DMP-Z1?


I was also considering the Z1 before i got Dave, the general consensus is that there is no comparison


----------



## alxw0w

Halimj7 said:


> How would you guys compare the Dave’s sound signature to the TT2? I have heard it is more mid focused but still very balanced and natural.
> 
> And what about any DMP-Z1 comparisons? They seem very comparable.


You can check my feelings on switching from MTT2 to solo Dave that I wrote while ago.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/post-15918202


----------



## CBR954RR (Dec 7, 2021)

I've owned the Dave for a few weeks now a massive upgrade over the Qutest both used with the MScaler.

The detail, bass, sound stage from the Dave is off the charts, amazing!


----------



## alxw0w

CBR954RR said:


> I've owned the Dave for a weeks now a massive upgrade over the Qutest both used with the MScaler.
> 
> The detail, bass, sound stage from the Dave is off the charts, amazing!


Good for you 
Are you using preamp between Dave and an amplifier ?


----------



## CBR954RR

alxw0w said:


> Good for you
> Are you using preamp between Dave and an amplifier ?


Using a Naim 252DR pre


----------



## alxw0w

CBR954RR said:


> Using a Naim 252DR pre


Have yo tried direct Dave to power amp ?
Any thoughts ?
Lately there was a small discussion on hugo2 thread of using Chord dacs in dac/preamp mode directly with power amps, and I'm curious of your opinion.


----------



## CBR954RR

alxw0w said:


> Have yo tried direct Dave to power amp ?
> Any thoughts ?
> Lately there was a small discussion on hugo2 thread of using Chord dacs in dac/preamp mode directly with power amps, and I'm curious of your opinion.


It's one thing I haven't tried, I've thought about plugging the Dave into my NAP300s but as with all things Naim their power amps are best served with a Naim pre, maybe one day 😉


----------



## alxw0w

CBR954RR said:


> It's one thing I haven't tried, I've thought about plugging the Dave into my NAP300s but as with all things Naim their power amps are best served with a Naim pre, maybe one day 😉


I'll strongly recommend trying.
Anyway enjoy magical moments with Dave. And I know there will be many


----------



## marcmccalmont

alxw0w said:


> Have yo tried direct Dave to power amp ?
> Any thoughts ?
> Lately there was a small discussion on hugo2 thread of using Chord dacs in dac/preamp mode directly with power amps, and I'm curious of your opinion.


I’ve used Dave both through a Spectral preamp and direct into Spectral power amps balanced and single ended. By far the best is single ended direct into the power amps. I need a preamp for my turntable and headamp so i separate the digital and the analog systems prior to the power amps with a Rek o kut switch


----------



## Jawed

CBR954RR said:


> I've owned the Dave for a few weeks now a massive upgrade over the Qutest both used with the MScaler.
> 
> The detail, bass, sound stage from the Dave is off the charts, amazing!


If you have a spare shelf on your "brawn" rack, put the M scaler there, preferably near the floor. Worst case, put it on the floor under the brawn rack.

M Scaler generates lots of RF noise and your 300 head unit (guess) being close to it won't like that noise, I'm afraid.

Also, being a Naim system, you're unlikely to prefer DAVE direct into the 300. It's simpler to ditch Naim and use an Etude driven by DAVE instead, for a quarter of the price of 252/300. Or an Ultima 6 or 5 if you fear Etude doesn't have the grunt. Being in the UK, it should be fairly easy to borrow an Etude.

It looks like you don't have M Scaler set to maximum upsampling!


----------



## JTbbb

Jawed said:


> It looks like you don't have M Scaler set to maximum upsampling!


Hmm, looks ok to me. That could be a slight green tinge showing a high rez file coming in, and two white lights.


----------



## CBR954RR

Jawed said:


> If you have a spare shelf on your "brawn" rack, put the M scaler there, preferably near the floor. Worst case, put it on the floor under the brawn rack.
> 
> M Scaler generates lots of RF noise and your 300 head unit (guess) being close to it won't like that noise, I'm afraid.
> 
> ...



On the brawn rack my ND5XS2 sits on the top shelf I may swap this around with the MScaler, the MScaler is set for max upsampling must be my mobile phone pic playing with the colours.

Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Dec 8, 2021)

I am just testing a new farad lps setup for my dave. Just running it for a day. I wrote a few pages of my first impression and how we came to the idea and the development. Is this the right place to copy that story just posted it on the chord owners on facebook?

Can add some pictures and a few pages text in a few minutes


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## MvRBE10 (Dec 8, 2021)

Farad super3 setup for the Chord Dave



After reading a lot on the forums about upgrading the LPS (linear power supply) of the Chord Dave and the results people are getting by adding a Paul Hynes or Sean Jacobs DC4 power supply, I was eager to get one on my own set. I already had a Farad Super3 on the Mscaler and because farad is also Dutch I contacted Mattijs the owner of Farad if he was interested in doing a project of making an affordable lps for the Dave. In the past he had this question often but I explained my own background as electronics engineer and willing to use my new Dave as test object and make some parts for the project. About around the same time he was asked to do a kind of similar lps for another DAC brand with a positive and negative power supply. So now two parties were asking him and having some ideas already in his head he agreed, notice!!! this was only approx 2 month ago.

After a brainstorming session he told me passionately about his ideas and what he thought should be on such a system for a high end DAC. Mattijs has some experience on audio design as being a founder of Pink Faun. The first key feature that was an absolute must was designing a true negative powersupply. So not pairing two positive supplies where the positive of one is attached to the negative of the other and so creating a minus when using a floating ground or rail as it is called. A true negative power supply is completely opposite build so eg. npn transistors, capacitors are the other way around - same with the diode bridge and the negative based regulators etc.. will not go into the details but the end result is a lps were all the common grounds can be attached to each other one does not have to be floating. So all rf noise can be killed at the source and not at the end of the chain. Also floating ground can be submitted to different loads from the upper and lower side voltages and this could cause a shifting or jittering ground level.

Secondly Mattijs and i are convinced that every DC voltage the Dave gets should have a separate casing and transformer so no cross contamination can occur and every lps is filtered on its own internally and externally eg. Powercord, casing, wiring etc.. Using farads stock components would also save a lot of development and testing time. These power supplies have proven themself in and out of the audio world. He designed his true negative supply in no time having the idea for a long time already, he only had to design a new pcb and had this made in his production facility in no time.



The third key feature we figured that it should have was a safety device for enabling the power to the Dave. Each voltage +-15V and +5V, three in total will come to the Dave in different timing. A -15 will start up in approx 7sec and the 5V in 1 sec. We don't know if the Dave can handle this and what happens if you are on holiday and one power supply fails and it will only get 2 out of three voltages.



The fourth but not the most un-important one, it should be affordable. I cannot give prices because they are not mine to give but you can do a little bit of the math yourself as we are using three stock farad power supplies if you add the one for the Mscaler 4 in total so thats approx 2400,- in VAT on 4 stock lps’s add the wiring and monitoring print and the aluminum inlet with plugs and maybe powercords you can guess were the basic version will start. On a later stage I will test upgrades such as fuses, rhodium inlets, but only after setting a baseline with the stock components. (While i am typing this i am listening to my ultimate playlist and are flabbergasted every few moments)
Using 4 Farad Super3 power supplies you will not have a big footprint, the supplies can be stacked or laid out flat next to each other. A lot of configurations are possible and as I have learned in this audio world everyone has a different approach on how they setup their gear and this way everybody can be happy. I have seen people building racks for just there farads.

So mattijs designed a monitoring print for inside of the Dave. The space was used were the original power supply was. This print will only pass through the three DC voltages simultaneously if all are present, a so called AND function in digital terms and a fail save if people would switch the lines. This way the dave is always safe, not a bad thing for a DAC that costs 11.400,- euro in the EU. He uses a microprocessor on this board that later on can be tweaked or reprogrammed if necessary. While mattijs was designing the lps i was doing some cnc work for the power inlet of the dave.

It still amazes me from two viewpoints how the stock $32 costing medical switched power supply of the dave still sounds so good and also that chord does not upgrade this by making a choral stand with an external power supply, how hard can it be? And people, the difference is not subtle it's huge - how much better the Dave gets by doing this i will almost call it Dave 2.

The advantage of above system is that customers pretty much can install this system themselves with a degree of safety that nothing can be blown up by doing something wrong or if/when components fail in the future. Everything can fail as we all know, the Chord as can be read on forums are also failing now and then and repaired by Chord, that's life when using electronics, crap happens. But this way it feels much better and to be honest the start up sequence is also pretty cool to watch. All separate lps’s LED start to blink red and when ready go over into a nice blue and after a fraction of a sec the dave comes alive (sorry thats my ocd kicking in).

Last week Mattijs called me that the monitor print was ready and tested. So he gave me a DIY kit of all separate components for me to install into the dave and test if it works. The first trail I do will be with stock farad super3 power supplies the only upgrade that is made are the dc lines - these are silver. The past has proven that these cables work the best between the super3 and Dave. For the power cords I had to go on Mattijs' experience and the feedback from his customers so i used TCS021 furutech cable this is slightly thinner version than the advised TCS031 version. I wanted to use one AC power connecter to 3 AC euro inlets this saves alot of space in the power block. The connectors used are also furutech and the gold versions around $30 a piece.

I soldered currently Daves own internally dc cord of its own power supply as the gold plated pins of the new connector are in back-order. I think in the future for my own setup will solder everything and will not use any connector but that's custom and not for now.

After testing everything without connected the dc to the Dave, it all worked in one go. Next I made everything fit and flipped the switch and after the startup sequence the Dave came nicely alive. I installed everything in my setup and the magic started.

I will repeat my first impressions I applied to Mattijs at 2 in the middle of the night “every instrument and voice has got its own space now, bass has much more texture and attack and depth and with vocals it is as if they are separate entities in front of you…” and than some words i will not repeat online, next notes I sent were “the fatigue that was always a bit there are just GONE the snares and trumpets tjeessss mattijs i am back to listening again bye”

This morning after listing for a few hours and thinking what to say about the change it makes out of the box and how to describe it best for now i think it's as if the sound and coloration of my gear/setup is vanished and just the music is left. Btw excuse me for my English i am not native English but Dutch and just typing as i am thinking. Our opinions above are also just mine and in my own setup. I owned almost all modern Chord dacs including all lps tweaks. In my setup i use an Aurender N10 as streamer a new Chord Dave and Mscaler connected with the high fidelity storm bnc cables. Amplifier is a Nelson Pass class A connected to the new Usher TD-10 speakers who are internally upgraded. I also have dedicated power on one phase from the powerbox just for my audio gear. As headset i use the Focal Utopia. In the upcoming week i will do some serious listening and will come back on my finding on this magical upgrade.


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## Triode User

MvRBE10 said:


> Farad super3 setup for the Chord Dave
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well done and congratulations! It is interesting that you were tempted to call what you were listening to as ‘Dave 2’ due to the improved sound quality by ditching the internal SMPS. Dave 2 is also exactly what came to my mind when I was listening to the DC4 Dave (now improved to the ARC6 Dave of course). It would be great if we could get the two solutions side by side one day to hear a comparison.

By the way, congratulations also on engineering a dual purpose cable support for those nice bnc cables. 😜 😀 🤣 👍

I look forward to your further reports but I predict a distinct loss of sleep over the week as you stay up later and later listening to more and more music. 👍


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## MvRBE10

Thanks nick, yeah thats support is nice m, the two cables for the 15v are to short to stack then below as i want but its for the test when the cables are in it will ve changed😁. We will compare them definitly would be awsome to do.


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## alxw0w (Dec 9, 2021)

I can't wait for the outcome  
as I mentioned, some time ago I contacted Mattijs (farad3) and asked about custom lps for dave and he was too busy making other things.
BUT the universe has listened, it was inevitable !


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## MvRBE10

Some pictures of the setup and install, two dc cables are a bit to short tonstack them below this will be changed once the cable are in.


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## TheAttorney

MvRBE10 said:


> I wanted to use one AC power connecter to 3 AC euro inlets this saves alot of space in the power block. The connectors used are also furutech and the gold versions around $30 a piece.


Firstly, it's great to see a a lower cost alternative to the DC4, so I read this post with considerable interest, as the DC4 is very big, very heavy and very expensive for my downsizing preferences.

But for me it would be even better if there was a lot less spaghetti in this Farad solution: I.e. 1 box, with 1 AC cable going into it.
Yes you can stack 3 Farads together, but it's still a lot of spaghetti involved.

As someone who has dabbled with tweaking external power supplies in the past, IMO every cable, plug, socket, fuse can make a significant difference, so there is huge temptation here to spec up this triple solution. Much simpler if it was just 1 box, 1 AC cable and 1 fuse. OTOH, tripling everything up could help isolate interference and therefore potentially improve SQ.

All things considered, once this triple solution has proven it's worth, I suggest that Mattijs will get even more sales if he additionally offers the 3 power supplies inside a single larger box (but still relatively compact compared to the DC4).


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## Sampajanna

This is rad! Cannot wait to hear more about it. Well done! And I agree on the Dave 2.0 point u made as well; perfect description of what I experienced with DC4. DC4 for Mscaler makes 2.3 :0)


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## MvRBE10

TheAttorney said:


> Firstly, it's great to see a a lower cost alternative to the DC4, so I read this post with considerable interest, as the DC4 is very big, very heavy and very expensive for my downsizing preferences.
> 
> But for me it would be even better if there was a lot less spaghetti in this Farad solution: I.e. 1 box, with 1 AC cable going into it.
> Yes you can stack 3 Farads together, but it's still a lot of spaghetti involved.
> ...


You got some points there i also mentioned in my conversations with mattijs but the first intension is the use of the exsisting product super3. Indeed the future will improve matters and maybe i myself ripp out the three pcb and put it in one nice flat box, its not rocket science.
Damn more things todo, so nice this hobby.


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## Chartreuse

I've had my DAVE since 2018, and today it started dropping out. It sounds thin, then distortion/static, then drop out... and then comes back in thin again. I've tried 3 sources and 2 cables and 3 headphones, same issue. Anybody experienced this? Any idea how to go about getting service?


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## miketlse

Chartreuse said:


> I've had my DAVE since 2018, and today it started dropping out. It sounds thin, then distortion/static, then drop out... and then comes back in thin again. I've tried 3 sources and 2 cables and 3 headphones, same issue. Anybody experienced this? Any idea how to go about getting service?


email support@chordelectronics.co.uk and ask for their advice.


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## chelseafc

MvRBE10 said:


> Farad super3 setup for the Chord Dave
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can anyone explain how powering an M Scaler with an LPS makes it sound better?
I am not questioning anyone’s subjective experiences, just trying to understand what problem is being solved by it.
M Scaler is a massive RF generator and will generate noise even on a battery power.
Does LPS protect the mains from the noisy M Scaler?
What am I missing?


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## marcmccalmont

I’ve got about 1 week of break in on the latest Sean Jacobs power supply. A significant upgrade. I remember adding a Blu2 to my system years ago and although there was an improvement it was minor. The power supply upgrade is one of the larger upgrades I’ve made to my system.


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## chelseafc

Great, but this was not my question.
Yours is one of many testimonies I read.
I am just trying to understand what is the problem definition and how LPS addresses it.
Admittedly, I had been a victim of my own confirmation bias in past, so I am trying to lay some foundation prior to pursuing an upgrade.
Also, understanding a problem and a solution helps prioritising upgrades.
Is BNC cable from M Scaler to DAVE the largest vulnerability?
Is the USB input on DAVE the one and should be avoided at all cost?
Is it the grounding scheme a culprit and needs to be addressed by going optical?
If the answer “all of the above”, I am going to end up with holy mess on my hands and many thousand dollars poorer.

I do not need 100% of performance, I am pretty happy with 90% that I have now, but willing to entertain another 5% at a reasonable cost.

But reading some of the comments, I am getting impression that the stock power supplies and cables only achieve 50% of what is available, which I refuse to accept as a fact.


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## Glossator

chelseafc said:


> Can anyone explain how powering an M Scaler with an LPS makes it sound better?
> I am not questioning anyone’s subjective experiences, just trying to understand what problem is being solved by it.
> M Scaler is a massive RF generator and will generate noise even on a battery power.
> Does LPS protect the mains from the noisy M Scaler?
> What am I missing?


I am sure others will put it more knowledgeably, but HMS generates RF both into the mains and through the air.   Using a battery addresses the first route for RF to travel but not the second.   In other words, taking mains RF solution away is what a battery achieves (and a LPS will not totally achieve).   However, batteries bring their own issues.   As I understand it a good LPS provides HMS with a stable voltage that a battery cannot match.   To my ears at least, a good LPS is noticeably better than battery.


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## adrianm

I'm also a massive skeptic but let me address your questions with what I've gathered so far :


chelseafc said:


> Is the USB input on DAVE the one and should be avoided at all cost?


From my personal perspective yes. No matter what macbook  (unplugged) i used it also sounded worse than Optical out of a "noisy gaming pc ". This was true until i got my streamer where coax just sounds better than even optical to me and noise is not that much of an issue even over USB.


chelseafc said:


> Is it the grounding scheme a culprit and needs to be addressed by going optical?





chelseafc said:


> Is BNC cable from M Scaler to DAVE the largest vulnerability?


Yes but it's the BNC cables that screw you, and yes, the M-scaler is a massive RF generator. Some people use ferrites, i use a battery for example. I've tried a Farad with a non-ferrited M-scaler and it was significantly worse, and clearly worse than the stock SMPS. All the hallmarks of RF noise were there.


chelseafc said:


> I do not need 100% of performance, I am pretty happy with 90% that I have now, but willing to entertain another 5% at a reasonable cost.
> 
> But reading some of the comments, I am getting impression that the stock power supplies and cables only achieve 50% of what is available, which I refuse to accept as a fact.


People are blowing things out of proportions. Even with all optimizations , I think Dave itself is 80% of the SQ. the M-scaler takes away more than it brings without a battery from my perspective. Be it directly or from an Opto-DX which also needs a battery for complete isolation.

The best upgrade (without any downsides) I've found to Dave is the mains filter


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## Glossator

chelseafc said:


> Great, but this was not my question.
> Yours is one of many testimonies I read.
> I am just trying to understand what is the problem definition and how LPS addresses it.
> Admittedly, I had been a victim of my own confirmation bias in past, so I am trying to lay some foundation prior to pursuing an upgrade.
> ...


Everything matters ... and the differences are, surprisingly, large (percentages are tricky and potentially misleading, but I would put the potential upside at massively over 5%).    You are wise to be cautious, though, about falling into a rabbit hole!   The cheapest upgrade, which is very noticeable once RFI is addressed (but might not be as noticeable otherwise?) is to pop a DAVE on rollerballs.  Also, if you have a HMS and a DAVE you should certainly use BNC as otherwise the HMS is not giving you anything like it should because you are not using anything like its full upscaling potential.


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## chelseafc (Dec 10, 2021)

adrianm said:


> I'm also a massive skeptic but let me address your questions with what I've gathered so far :
> 
> From my personal perspective yes. No matter what macbook  (unplugged) i used it also sounded worse than Optical out of a "noisy gaming pc ". This was true until i got my streamer where coax just sounds better than even optical to me and noise is not that much of an issue even over USB.
> 
> ...


Ok, this is closer to where I am with all of this.
My starting assumption is that when you spend this kind of money ($10-15K), you already entered the area of diminishing returns, right out of the box.
If this or that tweak made someone’s jaw drop, would it make that tweak worth, what, 10%?
Combine all the tweaks people on this forum mention and you got my point…


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## chelseafc (Dec 10, 2021)

Glossator said:


> I am sure others will put it more knowledgeably, but HMS generates RF both into the mains and through the air.   Using a battery addresses the first route for RF to travel but not the second.   In other words, taking mains RF solution away is what a battery achieves (and a LPS will not totally achieve).   However, batteries bring their own issues.   As I understand it a good LPS provides HMS with a stable voltage that a battery cannot match.   To my ears at least, a good LPS is noticeably better than battery.


Ok, if the problem definition is M Scaler‘s contamination of the mains, is the LPS the most effective way to combat it?
Why nobody talking about ferrites, similar to the BNC cables?
Does that problem go away if M Scaler plugged into a power conditioner with its own filters?
Again, I spent money in past on things that I believed should help and “heard” improvements.
Then I moved on, forgot about them and could not tell the difference later on when I chose to revisit the subject.


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## marcmccalmont

chelseafc said:


> Great, but this was not my question.
> Yours is one of many testimonies I read.
> I am just trying to understand what is the problem definition and how LPS addresses it.
> Admittedly, I had been a victim of my own confirmation bias in past, so I am trying to lay some foundation prior to pursuing an upgrade.
> ...


I was not answering your question, if I was I would have proceeded my comments by quoting you 😇


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## Glossator

chelseafc said:


> Ok, if the problem definition is M Scaler‘s contamination of the mains, is the LPS the most effective way to combat it?
> Why nobody talking about ferrites, similar to the BNC cables?
> Does that problem go away if M Scaler plugged into a power conditioner with its own filters?
> Again, I spent money in past on things that I believed should help and “heard” improvements.
> Then I moved on, forgot about them and could not tell the difference later on when I chose to revisit the subject.


HMS radiates RFI through both each and every cable:  BNC and mains.   A power conditioner will do nothing to help RFI travelling via BNC.     I have not tried ferries, but Nick (Wave) offers them trial (at least in the UK - you could ask him re the US) ... so you could see if you feel they justify the expense?   If you are weighing up ferrites against the OptoDX, then which works out cheaper depends how far down the rabbit hole you are prepared to go (although Opto DX and good LPS is likely to be the most expensive route).

By the way, I sympathise and share the scepticism.   But, on playing around a little, I was very much persuaded as to the difference - not remotely something that I believed I heard and didn't notice when removed.  We all, though, hear differently ....


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## MvRBE10

I have got three kemp filters in my power block, two sns and a qa filter that block the root back and forth over the ac power everybody who sits down with me and i plug and unplug these filters hears it imidiatly in the highs and the ease that comes in the music(people like friends, family etc non audifreaks like us) then the two biggest upgrades in my opinion are the dual bnc from high fidelity storm cables and now all 4 lps. 

In percentages if its worth anything its 70% baseline dave, add 5% for the filters 10% for the bnc and 15% on the lps’s but the combi off three enhances everything so 1+1+1=4 hope it makes sense. Reading alot about it and people who compared it to vivaldi etc. I did not but taking this route makes the whole digital stack to aproxx 20k euro and beats alot of these 30-40k stuff. I cannot confirm first hand but asume a bit. But it really sound the bomb now compared to dave stock.

Hope this bit helpes you a bit


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## adrianm

chelseafc said:


> Does that problem go away if M Scaler plugged into a power conditioner with its own filters?


As much as i hoped it would...It doesn't. My filter has 6 individually filtered sockets. The effects are just as noticeable.


chelseafc said:


> Ok, if the problem definition is M Scaler‘s contamination of the mains, is the LPS the most effective way to combat it?


It does nothing to combat it without ferrites and sounds significantly worse than the stock brick to my ears.


chelseafc said:


> Ok, if the problem definition is M Scaler‘s contamination of the mains, is the LPS the most effective way to combat it?
> Why nobody talking about ferrites, similar to the BNC cables?


Rob explained a few years back that there is a ground loop that you can only break by using optical or a battery. When you do this the BNC cables basically filter the M-scaler noise themselves (to a degree, not sure if entirely )  and then you won't need Ferrites. But decent cables still help with overall SQ.
    I think what some people are saying is that if you use ferrites to filter out the noise generated by the M-scaler (and the ground loop via the mains), by using a LPSU you generate less noise into the mains and overall. But then your devices won't benefit from the filtering designed for the smps.
    At least those are the only conclusions I've been able to draw from way too much time wasted on forums.
   I completely disagree that an LPS improves everything as if it's magic. Heard the Farad make my M-scaler and a friend's Qutest sound worse (more noise). I agree with what Rob said about it being a case of people enjoying distortion, or maybe they're just adding it via an LPSU and removing it via ferrites.

  TLDR: IMO a battery is the most cost effective solution and the one that makes the most sense . I have no idea as to why you would need a "high current" battery for the M-scaler. Or what that even means, but it feels like BS to me.
     As for Dave, I'm willing to try a triple Farad solution and see for myself before i comment. If it's well designed( for Dave), i imagine it might. I'm also sure people are blowing things out of proportions, as experience has taught me.


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## adrianm

MvRBE10 said:


> I have got three kemp filters in my power block, two sns and a qa filter that block the root back and forth over the ac power everybody who sits down with me and i plug and unplug these filters hears it imidiatly in the highs and the ease that comes in the music(people like friends, family etc non audifreaks like us) then the two biggest upgrades in my opinion are the dual bnc from high fidelity storm cables and now all 4 lps.
> 
> In percentages if its worth anything its 70% baseline dave, add 5% for the filters 10% for the bnc and 15% on the lps’s but the combi off three enhances everything so 1+1+1=4 hope it makes sense. Reading alot about it and people who compared it to vivaldi etc. I did not but taking this route makes the whole digital stack to aproxx 20k euro and beats alot of these 30-40k stuff. I cannot confirm first hand but asume a bit. But it really sound the bomb now compared to dave stock.
> 
> Hope this bit helpes you a bit


 I am curious if you've tried a battery with the M-scaler vs the Farad. Without the Wave cables.


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## marcmccalmont

Glossator said:


> HMS radiates RFI through both each and every cable:  BNC and mains.   A power conditioner will do nothing to help RFI travelling via BNC.     I have not tried ferries, but Nick (Wave) offers them trial (at least in the UK - you could ask him re the US) ... so you could see if you feel they justify the expense?   If you are weighing up ferrites against the OptoDX, then which works out cheaper depends how far down the rabbit hole you are prepared to go (although Opto DX and good LPS is likely to be the most expensive route).
> 
> By the way, I sympathise and share the scepticism.   But, on playing around a little, I was very much persuaded as to the difference - not remotely something that I believed I heard and didn't notice when removed.  We all, though, hear differently ....


I can’t reply to HMS but preferred lifatec tos (optical $100) into Dave directly over Blu2. That was with both an Aurender N10 and Project CD box rs both have outstanding spdif outputs. I also found power cables for Dave with 20 or so clamp on ferrites helped ( Pangea ac14 se II $80 + $20) and isolating the mains with a ps audio P10 powerplant helped. The Pangea, ferrites and lifatec are cheap enough it’s worth the experiment.


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## Progisus

Has anyone measured the rfi produced by the mscaler? Rob says most is mitigated internally.


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## chelseafc (Dec 10, 2021)

Progisus said:


> Has anyone measured the rfi produced by the mscaler? Rob says most is mitigated internally.


Has anyone considered the impact of the BNC ferrites on the signal itself?
I believe the SPDIF is synchronous (as oppose to USB) and preserving the sharp signal edges very important to maintaining accurate timing on the receiving end.
Could it be that ferrites cause some timing smearing that many interpret as improvements?
Similar to suggestions that a good dose of RFI could add brightness to the sound and be mistaken for better resolution?


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## sm60

chelseafc said:


> Has anyone considered the impact of the BNC ferrites on the signal itself?
> I believe the SPDIF is synchronous (as oppose to USB) and preserving the sharp signal edges very important to maintaining accurate timing on the receiving end.
> Could it be that ferrites cause some timing smearing that many interpret as improvements?
> Similar to suggestions that a good dose of RFI could add brightness to the sound and be mistaken for better resolution?


This whole discussion convinces me even more of the significant inherent flaws in the design of the whole Blu/M-scaler to Dave interface and the whole suite of perhaps mistaken design choices made. DSP is extremely well understood at the academic level and countless products function flawlessly without the need for ridiculous amounts of RF suppression measures and humungous and expensive linear power supplies. In my experience  the Dave and Blu are inherently prone to RFI and light up like a Christmas tree if I do anything in the same room electrically (e.g., turn on some other component despite having the Blu/Dave on a separate expensive regulated PS Audio power supply).


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## chelseafc

sm60 said:


> This whole discussion convinces me even more of the significant inherent flaws in the design of the whole Blu/M-scaler to Dave interface and the whole suite of perhaps mistaken design choices made. DSP is extremely well understood at the academic level and countless products function flawlessly without the need for ridiculous amounts of RF suppression measures and humungous and expensive linear power supplies. In my experience  the Dave and Blu are inherently prone to RFI and light up like a Christmas tree if I do anything in the same room electrically (e.g., turn on some other component despite having the Blu/Dave on a separate expensive regulated PS Audio power supply).


My experience is different.
I have a 77” TV hanging on the wall 2 feet behind the DAVE and for the life of me I cannot tell the difference between TV on and TV off.
I have no idea how does RFI sound, maybe it is a blessing.
Would readily accept that my hearing is not what it is used to be, but I can easily tell the difference between HQPlayer on and off into DAVE.
I can also hear if the power amp plugged into the wall or into Niagara 3000 (worse).

Back to my original dilemma, if indeed M Scaler and DAVE are only 50% as good out of the box, I would be willing to contemplate tweaks.
But is am in serious doubt it is the case.
I am totally cool with people creating an aftermarket industry for all sorts of gadgets they you must have.
You just need to take the promises with a grain of salt.


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## marcmccalmont

chelseafc said:


> Has anyone considered the impact of the BNC ferrites on the signal itself?
> I believe the SPDIF is synchronous (as oppose to USB) and preserving the sharp signal edges very important to maintaining accurate timing on the receiving end.
> Could it be that ferrites cause some timing smearing that many interpret as improvements?
> Similar to suggestions that a good dose of RFI could add brightness to the sound and be mistaken for better resolution?


The ferrites are up against the outer braid not near the center conductor. With enough ferrites this reduces ground plane noise which is what Rob Watts was talking about not ground loops. No effect on the leading edge of the signal


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## chelseafc

chelseafc said:


> My experience is different.
> I have a 77” TV hanging on the wall 2 feet behind the DAVE and for the life of me I cannot tell the difference between TV on and TV off.
> I have no idea how does RFI sound, maybe it is a blessing.
> Would readily accept that my hearing is not what it is used to be, but I can easily tell the difference between HQPlayer on and off into DAVE.
> ...


BTW, I work for a medical imaging equipment company and can imagine what reaction of the FDA would be if we asked the customers to burn-in our systems prior to use.
We would be out of business by now, but that is another can of worms in the hi-fi world…


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## adrianm (Dec 10, 2021)

chelseafc said:


> I have a 77” TV hanging on the wall 2 feet behind the DAVE and for the life of me I cannot tell the difference between TV on and TV off.





chelseafc said:


> I have no idea how does RFI sound, maybe it is a blessing.


In case it helps, here's what i've experienced :

I haven't heard any difference with the M-scaler right next to Dave or further away, only via cables. With one exception being a USB cable plugged in next to a USB Wi-Fi receiver. The effects were the same.
I can clearly hear a difference between:
  - optical and usb (darker background, and less fatiguing sound)
  -Dave in the power conditioner or the outlet (with my pc and about 8-9 other electronics) : Bass is much deeper with the Aquarius, background is darker, depth improves, less bothersome highs, less "clutter"  (I like to use Dropkick Murphys "Rose Tattoo" for this test ) and much less fatiguing sound overall.
  - after all that, add the M-scaler and all those improvements are gone. It's like an RF nuke. There are considerable improvements in all areas however so you wouldn't know it necessarily at first. However i find very fatiguing.
     To me the best test for the M-scaler is plugging it into the mains vs a battery. Even with the filter the soundstage collapses like 20%. It goes from  180 degrees to like 140 in my system and depth diminishes as well. And shrill highs are back. To be fair some people have complained about this on the Z1R so maybe it just exacerbates an existing problem, but those are pretty much the hallmarks of RF noise.



chelseafc said:


> Would readily accept that my hearing is not what it is used to be, but I can easily tell the difference between HQPlayer on and off into DAVE.


I've considered ditching the M-scaler for Roon and some upsampling software, but on its own Roon sounds much worse than my streamer's native app on Qobuz. I honestly didn't expect it to be the case and i have no clear explanation for it as of now, but it is disappointing.



chelseafc said:


> Back to my original dilemma, if indeed M Scaler and DAVE are only 50% as good out of the box, I would be willing to contemplate tweaks.
> But is am in serious doubt it is the case.


I wouldn't say it's 50% , but i don't have the 10k or whatever PSU people are drooling about. I do however travel with Dave and use it Solo every month or so for like a week. Sans mains filter, M-scaler,streamer etc. I'd say it's about 70-80% of the whole thing (depending on the track).
       And i'd rather have no M-Scaler than run if off the mains at this point. That said, the last 20ish % is pretty impressive and i can see why people go through the hassle.


----------



## chelseafc

@adrianm thanks, this is very useful information.

I am with you on Roon sounding terrible straight into DAVE and I have no idea why.
HQPlayer takes DAVE to the next level.
I am getting new M Scaler in a couple of days and already having buyers’ remorse, reading this forum.
Good chance I will return it and reluctantly stay with HQPlayer, which is a pain in different ways.


----------



## adrianm

chelseafc said:


> @adrianm thanks, this is very useful information.
> 
> I am with you on Roon sounding terrible straight into DAVE and I have no idea why.
> HQPlayer takes DAVE to the next level.
> ...


    FWIW the stock BNC cables are crap. Ferrites or not, anything would be an upgrade. I'd keep it sensible though.  In case you want to test out the battery, this is what I'm using : 
https://www.amazon.com/POWEROAK-Ext...d=1639176358&sprefix=50000mah,aps,255&sr=8-16
   Add a Wi-fi enabled plug and you don't have to bother unplugging it every time you listen. As a headphone user it's no hassle. If you use speakers you might feel differently. Alternatively you can go down the Opto-dx and ferrite route. 
    Don't let me dishearten you though. Imperfect as it may be, it is worth the hassle. I hate that i still love it.
     I look forward to your impressions when it arrives


----------



## chelseafc

it has to beat HQPlayer hands down, otherwise it will be hard to justify all this trouble, not to mention $$$


----------



## iDesign (Dec 10, 2021)

adrianm said:


> FWIW the stock BNC cables are crap. Ferrites or not, anything would be an upgrade.


Not in my experience. The OE PRO-SIGNAL BNC cables with Würth ferrites had less audible distortion and dropouts than the flagship BNC cables from a “member of the trade” that were popularized on this forum. My DAVE and Blu2 have worked perfectly ever since I reverted back to simple cables that are _actually properly made_ and I have no need or desire to upgrade— sometimes hobbyist and niche cables are worse.


----------



## chelseafc

Could you please point to a site where they can be purchased?


----------



## adrianm

iDesign said:


> Not in my experience. The OE PRO-SIGNAL BNC cables with Würth ferrites had less audible distortion and dropouts than the flagship BNC cables from a “member of the trade” that were popularized on this forum. My DAVE and Blu2 have worked perfectly ever since I reverted back to simple cables that are _actually properly made_ and I have no need or desire to upgrade— sometimes hobbyist and niche cables are worse.


I wouldn't know about that, i'm using some plain old silver Oyaide :
https://www.amazon.com/OYAIDE-1-3m-DIGITAL-CABLE-DB-510/dp/B000WMC5YA.
 I've heard good things about Moon silver dragons as well.
https://www.moon-audio.com/silver-dragon-digital-cable-v1.html 
After auditioning higher priced BNC's (member of the trade ones excluded ) i hesitate to buy/recommend anything more expensive than these. As always, YMMV.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Dec 10, 2021)

adrianm said:


> I am curious if you've tried a battery with the M-scaler vs the Farad. Without the Wave cables.


No i did not thats something i read about but now you mention it something good to try soon.


----------



## CBR954RR

Between my MScaler / Dave I use Mark Grant HDX1 cables 

https://www.markgrantcables.co.uk/uk/digital-cables/mark-grant-hdx1-pure-copper-digital-coax-cable/


----------



## Progisus

While I wait for my Wave Storm, I amusing a pair of red and blue Blue Jeans (belden) cables. The ones in the box suck as bad now as they did with my first mscaler.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...Wave streams for 700 bucks, just lowered price today..


----------



## adrianm (Dec 11, 2021)

chelseafc said:


> it has to beat HQPlayer hands down, otherwise it will be hard to justify all this trouble, not to mention $$$


Could you share the  HQplayer settings you're using? or does anyone else have the settings that are supposed to mimic the M-scaler?
 Also, i assume Optical would be bandwidth limited in doing the full upsampling, so ideally USB or an SRC-DX would be required, right?
   Edit: nvm found the settings, still curious about the connection


----------



## marcmccalmont (Dec 11, 2021)

Let’s not forget Dave upscales internally it’s just not a 1million tap filter it’s only 64,000 taps 😉. So opto isolation, ferrited coax cables upgraded power supplies I think I’ll wait for a new Dave that uses a more powerful fpga (there would be room if the power supply was external) that has the computational power to execute a high tap filter onboard. With the upgraded power supply, optical tos connections (galvanically isolated) I’m happy (for now!) with the onboard 64,000 tap upscaler, KISS!


----------



## adrianm

marcmccalmont said:


> Let’s not forget Dave upscales internally it’s just not a 1million tap filter it’s only 64,000 taps 😉. So opto isolation, ferrited coax cables upgraded power supplies I think I’ll wait for a new Dave that uses a more powerful fpga (there would be room if the power supply was external) that has the computational power to execute a high tap filter onboard. With the upgraded power supply, optical tos connections (galvanically isolated) I’m happy (for now!) with the onboard 64,000 tap upscaler, KISS!


Not sure what you mean exactly, I'm pretty sure that is bypassed when using the M-scaler.  Rob has said before that an M-scaler in the same chassis is a bad idea, due to the noise it generates. So that's not coming in Dave 2, but a new M-scaler is. Keeping them separate seems to be the long term plan.


----------



## marcmccalmont

adrianm said:


> Not sure what you mean exactly, I'm pretty sure that is bypassed when using the M-scaler.  Rob has said before that an M-scaler in the same chassis is a bad idea, due to the noise it generates. So that's not coming in Dave 2, but a new M-scaler is. Keeping them separate seems to be the long term plan.


What I mean is I’m happy with Daves 64,000 tap onboard upscaler I’m content without an mscaler and all the added accessories neaded to optimize the interface. 
Rob is talking about adding a second fpga to Daves design (a bad idea) I’m talking about a state of the art fpga that on its own has the computational power for a higher tap filter (a good idea)


----------



## adrianm

marcmccalmont said:


> What I mean is I’m happy with Daves 64,000 tap onboard upscaler I’m content without an mscaler and all the added accessories neaded to optimize the interface.
> Rob is talking about adding a second fpga to Daves design (a bad idea) I’m talking about a state of the art fpga that on its own has the computational power for a higher tap filter (a good idea)


I'm pretty sure Rob was talking about what you're talking about. It replace an Intel Atom processor with an Core I9 and you will get more computational power but also more noise ,power draw, heat, etc etc.
    I'm content at the moment as well, but would love a one box solution, and i hate how they keep piling up.


----------



## marcmccalmont (Dec 11, 2021)

adrianm said:


> I'm pretty sure Rob was talking about what you're talking about. It replace an Intel Atom processor with an Core I9 and you will get more computational power but also more noise ,power draw, heat, etc etc.
> I'm content at the moment as well, but would love a one box solution, and i hate how they keep piling up.


Perhaps Rob would chime in?
Some times the faster processor running at a slower speed makes less noise.


----------



## alxw0w

marcmccalmont said:


> What I mean is I’m happy with Daves 64,000 tap onboard upscaler I’m content without an mscaler and all the added accessories neaded to optimize the interface.
> Rob is talking about adding a second fpga to Daves design (a bad idea) I’m talking about a state of the art fpga that on its own has the computational power for a higher tap filter (a good idea)


Dave has 164k taps not 64k


----------



## marcmccalmont

alxw0w said:


> Dave has 164k taps not 64k


Poor memory! Trying to recall info from 4 years ago 😊 better yet I’m happy with a 164,000 tap filter!


----------



## chelseafc

adrianm said:


> Could you share the  HQplayer settings you're using? or does anyone else have the settings that are supposed to mimic the M-scaler?
> Also, i assume Optical would be bandwidth limited in doing the full upsampling, so ideally USB or an SRC-DX would be required, right?
> Edit: nvm found the settings, still curious about the connection


I use USB input on DAVE, optically isolated from the HQPayer through opticalRendu.
Ordered SRC-DX to see if dual BNC input sounds better as has been suggested.
Is it worth trying Toslink?
Any suggestion on a USB-Toslink converter, does its quality even matter?


----------



## marcmccalmont

chelseafc said:


> I use USB input on DAVE, optically isolated from the HQPayer through opticalRendu.
> Ordered SRC-DX to see if dual BNC input sounds better as has been suggested.
> Is it worth trying Toslink?
> Any suggestion on a USB-Toslink converter, does its quality even matter?


I’m currently playing with a Denifraps Gaia.
N10 usb out into Gaia tos optical out into Dave,  interesting that with the N10 set to dsd to pcm conversion maximum rate that I could sent to Dave was 88KHz but out of the Gaia Dave accepts 176KHz


----------



## Christer (Dec 12, 2021)

chelseafc said:


> My experience is different.
> I have a 77” TV hanging on the wall 2 feet behind the DAVE and for the life of me I cannot tell the difference between TV on and TV off.
> I have no idea how does RFI sound, maybe it is a blessing.
> Would readily accept that my hearing is not what it is used to be, but I can easily tell the difference between HQPlayer on and off into DAVE.
> ...


I also have a TV in the same room as my Mscaler.
But I  never listen to music with the TV connected to the mains. I always disconnect my TV when not in use. which can be for weeks sometimes, too much real crap broadcast  on Swedish Television imho. 
And with the Mscaler connected I often  get such  bad, really very  bad, TV reception , that when I want to watch TV I just  have to disconnect my Mscaler.



My experience with ferrited BNC  cables in combination with my Qutest/Mscaler is that both  Wave ,Stream and Storm  are  a VERY  clear SQ and noise floor improvement over the cheap stock BNCs.

But  there might also be a  slight case of my  ferrited  BNC cables "softening" the upper treble ever so  slightly ,with some of my masterfiles where I know how both  the live sound in the hall and micfeed and masterfile playback  sounded with the equipment used  to record the music played.

By the way, playback at actual classical music recording sessions that I have been to is NEVER via expensive aftermarket  Streamers, but directly via  standard  PC or Mac and the  ADC/DAC used to capture the data.

My most favourable impression in spite of the hazzle involved with PGGB  with my  still very few PGGB testtracks  and via usb and 32 /705 upscaled files  directly into my Qutest with one of my direct ref masterfiles was that, yes now the very low level pp percussions shimmer in Mahler´s 5th is  both a bit more audible  and a wee bit  more accurately  placed in space  the mix and more realistic again both via headphones and especially via my big electrostatics speakers.
Weird little differences and things one can only hear if one has direct experience of the real thing.
You will not hear it with  your  favourite recording of Miles Davies´s Kind of Blue  or other HI FI shop demo stuff  unless you were there and still remember how it sounded live.

But  in my system there could be other "synergethic"  things at work that I do not grasp.

I can also bring back some of that  percussion shimmer by changing from  one RCA to another  cable than my ref cable.But then  at the loss of some fullness and warmth that was also a clear ingredient at the actuall cooking session.

But at least I have a quite good  reference point to go by and that helps.
Then again, for me at the end of the day, it is all about enjoying MUSIC!

And  until I get to hear Rob´s next "Mscaler X" I am very happy with my Mscaler. CERTAINLY  NOT perfect but very convenient and it lets me enjoy  digitally recorded music much more than before getting my Mscaler.
Cheers CC


----------



## adrianm

@chelseafc  Do you have any suggestion on getting it to work on a windows pc? i see there is a new version released a couple of days ago that "supports" Qobuz however i've been trying for  hours now and it just bugs out and Qobuz disappears if i close the app. Not sure if i'm doing something wrong but the UI is terrible.


----------



## chelseafc

adrianm said:


> @chelseafc  Do you have any suggestion on getting it to work on a windows pc? i see there is a new version released a couple of days ago that "supports" Qobuz however i've been trying for  hours now and it just bugs out and Qobuz disappears if i close the app. Not sure if i'm doing something wrong but the UI is terrible.


What exactly does not work for you?
You are showing the client's window, have you setup your desktop application?


----------



## adrianm

chelseafc said:


> What exactly does not work for you?
> You are showing the client's window, have you setup your desktop application?


I did, but the connection to qobuz option does not appear in the client anymore. It worked once, after i closed it, it won't pop up. So i can't actually play anything


----------



## chelseafc

adrianm said:


> I did, but the connection to qobuz option does not appear in the client anymore. It worked once, after i closed it, it won't pop up. So i can't actually play anything


I see, have not tried to play Qobuz through HQPlayer, using Roon.
HQPlayer’s UI is so primitive, that it never crossed my mind to use it as a playback console.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

When "one more song before bed" moment become sleepless night.


----------



## adrianm

chelseafc said:


> I see, have not tried to play Qobuz through HQPlayer, using Roon.
> HQPlayer’s UI is so primitive, that it never crossed my mind to use it as a playback console.


 So far all the recommended apps are complete crap, so i can see why people go to Roon. I didn't buy it since it sounded so bad. Any other recommendations?


----------



## chelseafc

Roon is the best that I tried, it sounds great with HQPlayer.


----------



## adrianm

chelseafc said:


> Roon is the best that I tried, it sounds great with HQPlayer.


I did find a 40 page document on how to install Kodi and than an addon (Supersonic) that pushes the stream to HQplayer. Addon won't install. I'm pretty much done with it. I am curious about PGGB though.


----------



## iDesign (Dec 11, 2021)

I have used Audirvana, HQ Player, JRiver, PGGB, Roon, and Stylus and it was a tie— they all lose. Streaming audio software is down a dirt road.


----------



## chelseafc

iDesign said:


> I have used Audirvana, HQ Player, JRiver, PGGB, Roon, and Stylus and it’s was a tie— they all lose. Streaming audio software is down a dirt road.


Would you also rate ripped CD playback below spinning CDs?


----------



## audio_1 (Dec 11, 2021)

adrianm said:


> So far all the recommended apps are complete crap, so i can see why people go to Roon. I didn't buy it since it sounded so bad. Any other recommendations?


I have a lifetime subscription to Roon. I have just just received an email from them, describing the new features of the upcoming Roon 1.8 update available next week for beta testing. One of the new features is:
*Improved buffering and caching for streaming content*
"We’ve made changes to Roon’s buffering and caching infrastructure when playing streaming content. The new implementation is designed to use a lighter touch when interacting with your network and internet connection, making streaming less intensive for your Roon Core."

This backups my believe that the sound quality issues that some have experienced with Roon is due to additional CPU usage of the Roon Core causing more RF noise, both mains and airborne. Roon after all is bit perfect so RF noise and jitter are the main things affecting sound quality. As Chord dacs are immune to jitter. RF noise is the issue.

This has never been a problem in my system as my Dave and Blu2 are separated by about 4 metres using the Opto DX, my Intel NUC and Hypos Ferrum power supply are a further metre away. I also have separate power supply lines for the analogue components (Dave and the power amps) and Digital components (Blu2 and the Intel NUC).


----------



## adrianm (Dec 14, 2021)

Did another Roon trial just to setup HQplayer. Running them both on a 9900k with 32 gb ram and Rtx 3080 TI via usb with the settings below. I can see why people like it. I'll keep testing over this weekend but it sounds a bit artificial to me.  I can't tell which one is the culprit.


----------



## Progisus

adrianm said:


> Did another Roon trial just to setup HQplayer. Running them both on a 9900k with 32 gb ram and Rtx 3080 via usb with the settings below. I can see why people like it. I'll keep testing over this weekend but it sounds a bit artificial to me.  I can't tell which one is the culprit.


Make sure adaptive output rate is checked not blocked. It will start much faster and you will have a better experience.


----------



## adrianm

iDesign said:


> I have used Audirvana, HQ Player, JRiver, PGGB, Roon, and Stylus and it’s was a tie— they all lose. Streaming audio software is down a dirt road.


This does seem to be the case. with the famous sync L filter that beats the M-scaler everything does sound more spaced out, like going from Dave to M-scaler yet again, compared to the M-scaler.
    However timbre and depth suffer imo. That just might be the RF noise via the USB from the PC, but even with Opto-dx and SRC-DX i'm not sure the timbre will be fixed. There's also a lot less tonal density. With Sync-M and NS9 Dither, and  you get some of that back, and it does sound closer to the M-scaler, but still slightly worse .


----------



## iDesign (Dec 11, 2021)

chelseafc said:


> Would you also rate ripped CD playback below spinning CDs?


Its why I own the Blu Mk2. I have a physical CD library with tens of thousands of rare and out of print classical recordings. Being able to play them without all of the issues of streaming audio is my preference. I’ve explored many network/streaming solutions over the years and I feel those technologies are still too unsettled.


----------



## Jawed

chelseafc said:


> Why nobody talking about ferrites, similar to the BNC cables?


3mm ferrites on the DC cable coming out of the HMS SMPS and 7mm ferrites on the AC cable going in to HMS SMPS is a big upgrade.

The 3mm ferrites are a tight, awkward fit:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01MRC9JN5

You could use 5mm ferrites instead for an easy fit.

The 7mm ferrites are easy to fit:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01N4U91RS

It's moderately expensive to fit these ferrites: about 65 3mm ferrites and about 72 7mm ferrites. Well worth doing.

Also, 9mm ferrites along the entire length of the IEC mains cable for DAVE. And any power amps, while you're at it.


----------



## adrianm

Out of curiosity, for the PGGB/HQ Player crowd. Would a Zen/Zenith be a suitable sever /streamer? I'm trying to figure out a good setup if i were to replace the M-scaler with Roon+HQplayer/PGGB + Src DX, but Innuos seems to cap out at 384 khz. As i understand it SRC DX needs 24 bits, not the full 32. 
    I'm still unclear if 24 vs SRC DX are recommended vs 32 via USB. I've read about the bad USB controller on Dave, and i do agree it's the worst connection, but when i leave HQplayer to default (as Mika recommends) it appears to send 32 bit , even though he said Dave doesn't support it (contrary to what Chord and Roon say).
   What's the consensus?


----------



## Toonartist (Dec 12, 2021)

For PGGB and HQP I use Roon Nucleus > Mac mini M1 HQP server > opticalRendu + Uptone JS-2 + TQ Silver Diamond USB > SRC.DX > TT2 > Etude.

I use the oR as a HQP NAA and both Roon and the Mac mini HQP server connect to the network via fibre optical connections (away from the listening room in a network cupboard). Then a 10m fibre cable to the listening room to the oR. This allows you to use 24/768... 24 bit is best for dual coax into a TT2 as 32bit forces the TT2 to convert it to 24bit first... this just adds processing noise that doesn't need to happen. If your using a DAC that can accept 32bit via dual coax without converting it down, just leave HQP bit setting as default.

If you have a HQP server... of any sort, then a small NAA is the best option as it doesn't need to be that powerful, it's just an endpoint. It keeps all the computing away from sensitive audio gear. It also means that your centralising the HQP server on the network so it can send the data to any number of HQP NAA's across the house... I have a couple of headphone points downstairs with a Pi4 + Digione tophat. The main listening room has the oR with the SRC.DX.

Now...should it replace an MScaler? All I'll say that when I compared it to the one I had for 18months, I disliked HQP when it was connected via USB. Didn't like it at all compared to the MScaler. So, to make a better comparison, just make sure the HQP software is running on a laptop/desktop on the network & use something like a Zen Streamer, Raspberry Pi4 or Mircorendu or better as a HQP NAA. If you're not into tweaking or experimenting.... stick with the MScaler 😉 HQP can be very rewarding when done right but it isn't always plug and play like the MScaler.


----------



## adrianm (Dec 12, 2021)

Toonartist said:


> For PGGB and HQP I use Roon Nucleus > Mac mini M1 HQP server > opticalRendu + Uptone JS-2 + TQ Silver Diamond USB > SRC.DX > TT2 > Etude.
> 
> I use the oR as a HQP NAA and both Roon and the Mac mini HQP server connect to the network via fibre optical connections (away from the listening room in a network cupboard). Then a 10m fibre cable to the listening room to the oR. This allows you to use 24/768... 24 bit is best for dual coax into a TT2 as 32bit forces the TT2 to convert it to 24bit first... this just adds processing noise that doesn't need to happen. If your using a DAC that can accept 32bit via dual coax without converting it down, just leave HQP bit setting as default.
> 
> ...


Is there anything wrong with using my gaming pc as Roon core and HQP server and just adding a USB streamer with SRC-DX into Dave? the Mind doesn't have USB sadly so it's probably either a Zen/Zenith or Auralic. One of them might double as Roon core, but the gaming pc is a lot more powerful. 9900k + rtx 3080 and 32 gb of ram atm and going to upgrade it soon anyway.
    I would assume running Roon core and HQP on the same machine would be preferable, with a raspberry pi endpoint separately connected via ethernet to the Innuos for example.


----------



## Toonartist (Dec 12, 2021)

I couldn't say as I've never tried. But hell, give it a go. I used HQP in demo mode for free for quite a while when I was experimenting with different options. Just try to avoid a direct connection via USB if you can. The MScaler sounds a lot better than HQP like that.

Edit. I opted to keep Roon and HQPlayer separate. Roon doesn’t like being server and player on the same computer so my gut feeling is it won’t be the best option. HQPLAYER can also be very demanding… same as MScaler. But, give it a go and see how it sounds and compare it to a system where they’re apart.

Don’t forget, the MScaler is an excellent system so HQPLAYER needs to be set up well to match it. If that can’t be done, sticking with the MScaler is the best option. It’s a great bit of kit!


----------



## alekc

Toonartist said:


> Don’t forget, the MScaler is an excellent system so HQPLAYER needs to be set up well to match it. If that can’t be done, sticking with the MScaler is the best option. It’s a great bit of kit!


I would agree, unless the fact that you need to go through all the hassle with cables and according to some (have no experience here) price of those can be equal or grater than M Scaler itself  

I've tried setting up HQP sever times and after all those experiments I still do not feel like HQP settings expert. Wish the documentation was better with clear, in-depth explanation of all settings and their effect on audio.


----------



## Toonartist

alekc said:


> I would agree, unless the fact that you need to go through all the hassle with cables and according to some (have no experience here) price of those can be equal or grater than M Scaler itself
> 
> I've tried setting up HQP sever times and after all those experiments I still do not feel like HQP settings expert. Wish the documentation was better with clear, in-depth explanation of all settings and their effect on audio.



This is why the MScaler is the perfect choice for many... unbox, plug in... play and with a cable tweak here and there and you're done. Chord and Rob have done the hard work for you.

HQPlayer can be it's equal in terms of musical enjoyment but... setting up my HQPlayer system I didn't spend that much less in terms of money and it involved a lot of trial and error to get the sound I wanted. It was never a money saving process for me, just a way to get the sound I wanted to as many access points in the house without shifting gear around all the time. Thankfully I was able to do this along side the MScaler that proved to be a good reference point as well as 18 months of great music!


----------



## alekc

Toonartist said:


> This is why the MScaler is the perfect choice for many... unbox, plug in... play and with a cable tweak here and there and you're done. Chord and Rob have done the hard work for you.
> 
> HQPlayer can be it's equal in terms of musical enjoyment but... setting up my HQPlayer system I didn't spend that much less in terms of money and it involved a lot of trial and error to get the sound I wanted. It was never a money saving process for me, just a way to get the sound I wanted to as many access points in the house without shifting gear around all the time. Thankfully I was able to do this along side the MScaler that proved to be a good reference point as well as 18 months of great music!


@Toonartist congrats on success mate  and thank you for sharing all of your M Scaler / HQP experiences.


----------



## adrianm

audio_1 said:


> I have a lifetime subscription to Roon. I have just just received an email from them, describing the new features of the upcoming Roon 1.8 update available next week for beta testing. One of the new features is:
> *Improved buffering and caching for streaming content*
> "We’ve made changes to Roon’s buffering and caching infrastructure when playing streaming content. The new implementation is designed to use a lighter touch when interacting with your network and internet connection, making streaming less intensive for your Roon Core."
> 
> ...


I've been testing a lot over the last few days. Roon allows you to do some nifty things. What i've learned :
 1.Even with a battery and a "quiet" streamer, coaxial into M-scaler is just asking for trouble. After 3 months of this i'm going back to toslink and probably selling my streamer since i can easily use my pc for that. I've been hating my M-scaler and increasingly turning the volume up inadvertently. I was at 4-5 DB louder than this summer before i went coax. Probably the RF noise. 
 2. Did some tests :
     Roon core and client on gaming pc via toslink to M-scaler sounds absolutely identical to Moon Mind's native app via toslink to the M-scaler. 
     For some reason the streamer via native app sounds "better" to my ears (extremely small differences but i've been checking for days and it's there) than Roon core on my gaming pc streaming to the Roon ready streamer. It's hard to describe but if i go this way Roon sounds "overly smoothed ", guitars have less bite, etc. I feel like complex instrumentals also  get a bit harder to follow and lose a bit of their leading edge. 
   Since Roon is bit perfect and actually sounds better (IMO) on my gaming pc as client and core streaming to the M-scaler via optical, i can only assume that the issue and differences come down to latency and timing. Either that or what i perceive as "worse " is actually better. 
      The "smoother" sound on the streamer does sound a bit more...analogue (talking 5% here max) but there is clearly that last bit of detail missing. Since my pc has 8 cores and 16 threads overclocked to 5 ghz, performance or RF noise is not likely to be the culprit here, especially via optical.


----------



## Ciggavelli (Dec 14, 2021)

adrianm said:


> I've been testing a lot over the last few days. Roon allows you to do some nifty things. What i've learned :
> 1.Even with a battery and a "quiet" streamer, coaxial into M-scaler is just asking for trouble. After 3 months of this i'm going back to toslink and probably selling my streamer since i can easily use my pc for that. I've been hating my M-scaler and increasingly turning the volume up inadvertently. I was at 4-5 DB louder than this summer before i went coax. Probably the RF noise.
> 2. Did some tests :
> Roon core and client on gaming pc via toslink to M-scaler sounds absolutely identical to Moon Mind's native app via toslink to the M-scaler.
> ...


I have no idea if this is true, but somebody in this thread hypothesized that changes in sound from one streamer to another (including your pc) are due to the other programs running at the same time on the device. Seems possible, but I’m no electrical engineer or computer scientist. Logically, since it’s all digital it shouldn’t matter, but for whatever reason it does.


----------



## alxw0w

adrianm said:


> Roon sounds "overly smoothed ", guitars have less bite, etc. I feel like complex instrumentals also get a bit harder to follow and lose a bit of their leading edge.


Similar thing happens when you compare roon vs lms.
Roon muddies bass, highs are not as refined, harsher in my case, everything is smooth but in a bad way.
I switched to lms and forgot about roon.


----------



## Christer

alxw0w said:


> Similar thing happens when you compare roon vs lms.
> Roon muddies bass, highs are not as refined, harsher in my case, everything is smooth but in a bad way.
> I switched to lms and forgot about roon.


Hi, what is lms?
Cheers CC


----------



## genefruit

Christer said:


> Hi, what is lms?
> Cheers CC


Logitech Media Server


----------



## adrianm

alxw0w said:


> Similar thing happens when you compare roon vs lms.
> Roon muddies bass, highs are not as refined, harsher in my case, everything is smooth but in a bad way.
> I switched to lms and forgot about roon.


Well I've tested again today (via optical , i had reached other conclusions my first trial via coax) and on some tracks the_ perceived _sq is reversed...so between the streamer's native app and Roon i can't seem to draw any consistent conclusions. 90% of the time it sounds the same, but sometimes i think i can give a tiny edge to one or the other. I did however change my mind about using the PC via optical, it does seem to lag behind slightly when music gets more complex, even via optical. So the streamer isn't going anywhere.
    The lastest Roon update also just hit and i can't reliably say it sounds better  , but i can say it doesn't sound any worse. I love the features  and UX though. Music suggestions are far better than anything else i've encountered, and this was my main issue with all streaming services since I have pretty eclectic tastes. I don't think i like more than 3 songs from any one artist. And i'm more about the lyrics than anything else.
     I think i'm going all in with Roon and getting lifetime off the bat. Since i also travel with Dave i can use HQplayer when i do and am curious to try PGGB once it's more mature. 
      All the streamer software i've encountered so far are kind of a joke frankly, and i feel like Roon is the soul of the whole thing and the missing piece for me to listen more. Even if it would be slightly worse (not sure under what circumstances or what the reasons would be except poor hardware) i still think the trade off is worth it.


----------



## adrianm

Ciggavelli said:


> I have no idea if this is true, but somebody in this thread hypothesized that changes in sound from one streamer to another (including your pc) are due to the other programs running at the same time on the device. Seems possible, but I’m no electrical engineer or computer scientist. Logically, since it’s all digital it shouldn’t matter, but for whatever reason it does.


As a developer, i was highly suspicious, however the improvement that came from Audirvana Studio over Tidal in exclusive mode via optical (so complete isolation) was pretty shocking. This is what pushed me to get a streamer in the first place, after crusading against them for a year. I still think the improvement is a joke considering the cost, but most of the time i can swear it sounds better even via optical. At least it's peace of mind, if nothing else.
    This all might change once i forego optical in order to use PGGB as i imagine noise and isolation would matter more with USB. Innuos stuff seem to have this pretty covered.


----------



## sm60

adrianm said:


> Well I've tested again today (via optical , i had reached other conclusions my first trial via coax) and on some tracks the_ perceived _sq is reversed...so between the streamer's native app and Roon i can't seem to draw any consistent conclusions. 90% of the time it sounds the same, but sometimes i think i can give a tiny edge to one or the other. I did however change my mind about using the PC via optical, it does seem to lag behind slightly when music gets more complex, even via optical. So the streamer isn't going anywhere.
> The lastest Roon update also just hit and i can't reliably say it sounds better  , but i can say it doesn't sound any worse. I love the features  and UX though. Music suggestions are far better than anything else i've encountered, and this was my main issue with all streaming services since I have pretty eclectic tastes. I don't think i like more than 3 songs from any one artist. And i'm more about the lyrics than anything else.
> I think i'm going all in with Roon and getting lifetime off the bat. Since i also travel with Dave i can use HQplayer when i do and am curious to try PGGB once it's more mature.
> All the streamer software i've encountered so far are kind of a joke frankly, and i feel like Roon is the soul of the whole thing and the missing piece for me to listen more. Even if it would be slightly worse (not sure under what circumstances or what the reasons would be except poor hardware) i still think the trade off is worth it.


While I appreciate all these subjective reports regarding Roon vs LMS vs physical media playback (CD, SACD, vinyl), I’m always mindful that these apparent differences at least in my experience are hugely dwarfed by the differences between speakers, the recording quality and analog electronics. I have several systems in my large house, ranging from state of the art cost-no-object systems to a antique Quad system featuring the 50+ year old ESL 57 with the 33/303 solid state electronics. What hugely differentiates the sound in every case are the speakers. If I switch the ESL 57 for a small bookshelf Spendor S3/5, the sound changes much more dramatically than any upstream changes in playback software, DAC etc. Similarly if I switch from tubes to a digital amplifier, there’s a huge difference in the sonic quality that dwarfs any changes from the DAC or Roon vs something like CD playback. Similarly the room again exerts a massive influence on the sound. Compared to these huge changes, DAC or playback software differences are minuscule in my experience (relatively speaking!).


----------



## adrianm

sm60 said:


> While I appreciate all these subjective reports regarding Roon vs LMS vs physical media playback (CD, SACD, vinyl), I’m always mindful that these apparent differences at least in my experience are hugely dwarfed by the differences between speakers, the recording quality and analog electronics. I have several systems in my large house, ranging from state of the art cost-no-object systems to a antique Quad system featuring the 50+ year old ESL 57 with the 33/303 solid state electronics. What hugely differentiates the sound in every case are the speakers. If I switch the ESL 57 for a small bookshelf Spendor S3/5, the sound changes much more dramatically than any upstream changes in playback software, DAC etc. Similarly if I switch from tubes to a digital amplifier, there’s a huge difference in the sonic quality that dwarfs any changes from the DAC or Roon vs something like CD playback. Similarly the room again exerts a massive influence on the sound. Compared to these huge changes, DAC or playback software differences are minuscule in my experience (relatively speaking!).


Yes, I'm very much looking forward to replacing the Z1R with some open backs once we move into the new place. However besides tonality, i haven't been able to find *much* more resolving ability in the headphones I've tested (Utopias, Meze Elite, Aryas,LCD-4z,HEKSE,etc). Some were better sure, but not that massive difference that you would expect from spending so much time on forums and reading about it.
    I listed to the Susvara recently for the first time out of a TT2 (no M-scaler) and i was shocked how much worse it was than the (measly) Z1R with Dave and M-scaler. I know, I know, "Susvara is a unicorn that requires 100W of power to shine". But still.


----------



## Ciggavelli

adrianm said:


> As a developer, i was highly suspicious, however the improvement that came from Audirvana Studio over Tidal in exclusive mode via optical (so complete isolation) was pretty shocking. This is what pushed me to get a streamer in the first place, after crusading against them for a year. I still think the improvement is a joke considering the cost, but most of the time i can swear it sounds better even via optical. At least it's peace of mind, if nothing else.
> This all might change once i forego optical in order to use PGGB as i imagine noise and isolation would matter more with USB. Innuos stuff seem to have this pretty covered.


I remember your anti-streamer position from back in the day 

Now we just have to win you over to the benefits of linear power supplies


----------



## iDesign (Dec 16, 2021)

audio_1 said:


> I have a lifetime subscription to Roon. I have just just received an email from them, describing the new features of the upcoming Roon 1.8 update available next week for beta testing. One of the new features is:
> *Improved buffering and caching for streaming content*
> "We’ve made changes to Roon’s buffering and caching infrastructure when playing streaming content. The new implementation is designed to use a lighter touch when interacting with your network and internet connection, making streaming less intensive for your Roon Core."
> 
> ...


Roon 1.8 (build 880) appears to have made a significant improvement in reducing USB dropouts with macOS 12.1. It was a serious issue with Roon up until now.


----------



## alxw0w

audio_1 said:


> *Improved buffering and caching for streaming content*
> "We’ve made changes to Roon’s buffering and caching infrastructure when playing streaming content. The new implementation is designed to use a lighter touch when interacting with your network and internet connection, making streaming less intensive for your Roon Core."


@Triode User can you test it a compare with LMS when it's finally out ?
I really don't want to renew my monthly subscription.
Maybe it's a step in a good direction from roon devs.


----------



## Triode User

alxw0w said:


> @Triode User can you test it a compare with LMS when it's finally out ?
> I really don't want to renew my monthly subscription.
> Maybe it's a step in a good direction from roon devs.


Sure, It is time that I fired up my Roon Lifetime Subscription for its annual try out . . . . 😜 👍


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> Sure, It is time that I fired up my Roon Lifetime Subscription for its annual try out . . . . 😜 👍


Well it came out last night


----------



## NYanakiev

Triode User said:


> Sure, It is time that I fired up my Roon Lifetime Subscription for its annual try out . . . . 😜 👍


I have a lifetime subscription- while owning a LMS compatible server. 
Used Roon for a year before deciding to go lifetime- not looked back since.

Using my DAVE+Mscaler with the Sonore Optical Rendu&Optical Module Deluxe has been just fantastic.


----------



## Triode User

NYanakiev said:


> I have a lifetime subscription- while owning a LMS compatible server.
> Used Roon for a year before deciding to go lifetime- not looked back since.
> 
> Using my DAVE+Mscaler with the Sonore Optical Rendu&Optical Module Deluxe has been just fantastic.


Nick, I will try the latest version but with all prior ones I have found myself listening and just becoming slightly irritated because I could hear that my system was not at its best. Previously I have then quitted Roon and reverted to LMS + Squeezelite (I of course was using Squeezelite as the player with Roon). Wish me luck!!


----------



## NYanakiev

Fair enough! I suppose I am not as much into a/b-ing anything, from cables to sources to interfaces.
I just go for whatever I subjectively feel gives me the best combination of sound quality, ergonomics/convenience and looks.


----------



## Triode User

NYanakiev said:


> Fair enough! I suppose I am not as much into a/b-ing anything, from cables to sources to interfaces.
> I just go for whatever I subjectively feel gives me the best combination of sound quality, ergonomics/convenience and looks.


I don’t need to do any a/b testing with Roon, it has been perfectly obvious without doing that, or at least with previous versions of Roon.


----------



## adrianm

As an update to my experiments with HQplayer, i haven't been able to find settings that are better than..no HQplayer. I thought it might be the USB noise, but i much prefer solo Dave via the same route.  That Rob fellow seems to know what he's doing


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> As an update to my experiments with HQplayer, i haven't been able to find settings that are better than..no HQplayer. I thought it might be the USB noise, but i much prefer solo Dave via the same route.  That Rob fellow seems to know what he's doing


 Have you tried HQP just as a player, in other words with no upsampling and no noise shaping? It might be interesting to compare that to whatever is your normal server app and player app. 

However, I have not found anything to beat LMS (Squeeze) server and Squeezlite Player into either Mscaler or straight into solo Dave.


----------



## adrianm

Ciggavelli said:


> I remember your anti-streamer position from back in the day
> 
> Now we just have to win you over to the benefits of linear power supplies


Well i believe in the theoretical benefits since i absolutely  loved all my Isotek filters. I'd rank them higher than the M-scaler for improvement. Will set up a dedicated circuit in the new place and see how much they still help. I'd sooner try the triple Farad solution than the DC4 since the pricing is kind of ridiculous, and i am very skeptical regarding the difference there would  be between them to warrant the price delta.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> Have you tried HQP just as a player, in other words with no upsampling and no noise shaping? It might be interesting to compare that to whatever is your normal server app and player app.
> 
> However, I have not found anything to beat LMS (Squeeze) server and Squeezlite Player into either Mscaler or straight into solo Dave.


As a player it's completely useless to me unfortunately. Since Qobuz is region locked , i had to use a vpn to create an account. HQplayer is the only player that  blocks access due to it being region locked. It behaves as it just uses the browser app to stream. Using a vpn again just to test it is too much hassle since the interface is..terrible.
     I'm most likely sticking with Roon for better or worse. The user experience is just unmatched.   is there any HQplayer setting you would recommend before i cancel the trial? Maybe I'm doing something wrong but everything sounds...artificial. Sync-L with LNS 15 is impressive from a separation perspective but completely destroys any timbre. It's like going from color to black and white. Sync-M with LNS 15 sounds close to the M-scaler, but still worse by a fair degree (as it should for the price).
 Hopefully PGGB would sound better. I know you were sharing some files at one point. Got any spares?


----------



## MvRBE10

adrianm said:


> Well i believe in the theoretical benefits since i absolutely  loved all my Isotek filters. I'd rank them higher than the M-scaler for improvement. Will set up a dedicated circuit in the new place and see how much they still help. I'd sooner try the triple Farad solution than the DC4 since the pricing is kind of ridiculous, and i am very skeptical regarding the difference there would  be between them to warrant the price delta.


1,5weeks now on the farads and its amazing, final print design is on its way, some tweaks in the connecting leads to the board department. But it gets better each day it runs. In a few days i will recap my listning notes and post them.

Ps the price of the sole lps incl the negative is already on his website.


----------



## Triode User

MvRBE10 said:


> 1,5weeks now on the farads and its amazing, final print design is on its way, some tweaks in the connecting leads to the board department. But it gets better each day it runs. In a few days i will recap my listning notes and post them.
> 
> Ps the price of the sole lps incl the negative is already on his website.


Is that board in the Dave needed? Why not just connect the three supples direct to the Dave? Adding extra circuits in the dc supply at first sight seems counter productive to performance


----------



## MvRBE10 (Dec 16, 2021)

No its not, the print adds no degredation, the three lps differ in startup between 1 and the negative is the longest 8sec. The pcb prevents lps swappes and passes all voltages if present and if one droppes all shut down. Its a 11.5k piece of dac we want to keep in one piece. Alot of people dont want the lps upgrade because off that risk and price. We hope to tackle both. And there is No degredation with this system.


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## MvRBE10 (Dec 16, 2021)

Maybe in the near future we will compare it at nicks place against the dc4 but all my conclusions so far are the same as nick and others found on the dc4 and haynes. Next to each other will give exact difference but globally i think they give the same upgrade advantages


----------



## adrianm

Spot on with everything


----------



## edwardsean

MvRBE10 said:


> Maybe in the near future we will compare it at nicks place against the dc4 but all my conclusions so far are the same as nick and others found on the dc4 and haynes. Next to each other will give exact difference but globally i think they give the same upgrade advantages


I'm also really curious about the performance of the Farad Super3 X 3 for Dave. I hope that there will be some opportunity to compare them side by side at a meet or if anyone dares attain both. 

Mattijs was also working on a high performance regulator unit. I would love to see a single case Farad LPS with 3 rails and the additional regulator stages made for Dave.

For myself, I've really been impressed with the hybrid tech that Ferrum is exploring. In the whole debate between linear and switch mode supplies they've seem to have found a way to eat their cake and substantially have it too. I've toyed with the idea of stacking three Hypsos (Hypsoi?) to power Dave, as voltage and polarity is fully adjustable. But, I get nightmares of my Dave on fire.


----------



## Triode User

MvRBE10 said:


> No its not, the print adds no degredation, the three lps differ in startup between 1 and the negative is the longest 8sec. The pcb prevents lps swappes and passes all voltages if present and if one droppes all shut down. Its a 11.5k piece of dac we want to keep in one piece. Alot of people dont want the lps upgrade because off that risk and price. We hope to tackle both. And there is No degredation with this system.


Ok, thanks for that. So I guess I could get hold of the relevant three Super3 units and have a go! But maybe not as I have just seen my wallet crawling out of the room. 🤣 Perhaps I should have kept my Super3, hindsight and all that! 

Just for info I frequently turn on the different voltage rails at different times/sequences because I have them in different cases. 

I look forward to hearing reports when some of these supplies get out into to the wild and especially look forward to seeing if we can get them side by side. For a long time I had a 5V Super3 powering a Qutest and liked it a lot (it was the best I had heard and I compared very many before deciding that). Indeed it was only bested when I borrowed my Dave DC4 and then later the ARC6 and used their 5V outputs for the Qutest. One thing I noticed with the Dave whilst I was doing the swopping around the 5V supplies for its digital board in the Dave was just how much influence that supply had on sound quality. Somehow I had thought it would be less influential than the analogue supply but to my ear that was not the case.

Well done. It is great when people get an idea in their head and then make it happen.


----------



## MvRBE10

Yes its always in the end a designers choice, mattijs uses these super caps in his lps design and that makes that they can startup very long. The lps’s are sold seperatly already so any hobby guy can also buy just the power supplies and solder them to the dave and your ready to go for 1900.- bucks. Options are always good.


----------



## MvRBE10

Nick other question i never tried, the aurender is now connected with toslink to my scaler i compared it with usb and usb really sucks connected strait in. But what if ingo bnc (wave) did you compare that to toslink?


----------



## MvRBE10 (Dec 17, 2021)

Ow and nick the print is multi purpose he build it also for the new lumin dac +-12V so the choices are combined. Maybe the dave does not need voltage input at the same time but the lumin does. Hence….the pressure to finally build the true negative supply


----------



## marcmccalmont (Dec 17, 2021)

MvRBE10 said:


> Nick other question i never tried, the aurender is now connected with toslink to my scaler i compared it with usb and usb really sucks connected strait in. But what if ingo bnc (wave) did you compare that to toslink?


I’ve compared farrited bnc’s to lifatec brand toslink and prefer the toslink
http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html


----------



## MvRBE10

Yes inhad the lifatec but it failed on 192/24 rest was fine. Ok so i am on the correct path there thanks.


----------



## marcmccalmont

MvRBE10 said:


> Yes inhad the lifatec but it failed on 192/24 rest was fine. Ok so i am on the correct path there thanks.


Short short short my 3’ tos failed at 192 but the 2’ worked


----------



## MvRBE10

Ow ok good to now i shipped mine back dumb of them not to mention


----------



## marcmccalmont

MvRBE10 said:


> Ow ok good to now i shipped mine back dumb of them not to mention


They probably are unaware!


----------



## Edric Li (Dec 17, 2021)

-


----------



## thePhones (Dec 17, 2021)

What is that makes Dave sound so great with HF-filter off when playing m scaled 44.1 or 48khz files. I mean is not night and day, but to me the difference in filter quality is so big that I really prefer 44.1 (HF-filter off) to 96khz or higher (with HF-filter on). With Hugo 2 I just stuck with the filter set to green because it was always the best sounding. Green filter was just a tad smoother, but with Dave it is different when it comes to redbook. Maybe this is just due to the better overall transparency, but HF-filter off is another level of realism with (m scaled) redbook. I can‘t stop listening, help😃


----------



## marcmccalmont

thePhones said:


> What is that makes Dave sound so great with HF-filter off when playing m scaled 44.1 or 48khz files. I mean is not night and day, but to me the difference in filter quality is so big that I really prefer 44.1 (HF-filter off) to 96khz or higher (with HF-filter on). With Hugo 2 I just stuck with the filter set to green because it was always the best sounding. Green filter was just a tad smoother, but with Dave it is different when it comes to redbook. Maybe this is just due to the better overall transparency, but HF-filter off is another level of realism with (m scaled) redbook. I can‘t stop listening, help😃


Just my opinion,  human hearing can sence leading edges beyond 20 KHz we don’t hear it but we sense it. 30KHz in one ear and 32KHz in the other ear you hear the 2KHz beat frequency. This was tested in the 1930’s by Bell Labs, RCA  and others. This is why tweeters with breakup modes above 20 KHz are irritating and some find records with cartridges capable of 40Khz to 50KHz bandwidth and speakers with tweeters that go out to 40KHz cleanly more realistic.


----------



## adrianm

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/e...TEZDotA4i-u3Wo6zKV4ZzUgXqvhGoQWzoZUgtQBX6Ekek


----------



## adrianm

adrianm said:


> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/e...TEZDotA4i-u3Wo6zKV4ZzUgXqvhGoQWzoZUgtQBX6Ekek


This is hot off the press : https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvme-ssd-for-audiophiles
   How far is too far?


----------



## miketlse

adrianm said:


> This is hot off the press : https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvme-ssd-for-audiophiles
> How far is too far?


I saw $2500 and then thought read again in a few months.


----------



## thePhones

marcmccalmont said:


> Just my opinion,  human hearing can sence leading edges beyond 20 KHz we don’t hear it but we sense it. 30KHz in one ear and 32KHz in the other ear you hear the 2KHz beat frequency. This was tested in the 1930’s by Bell Labs, RCA  and others. This is why tweeters with breakup modes above 20 KHz are irritating and some find records with cartridges capable of 40Khz to 50KHz bandwidth and speakers with tweeters that go out to 40KHz cleanly more realistic.


But this does not explain why I find „HF-filter off“ better with Dave but worse with Hugo 2. Both should have more or less no cut off of the higher frequencies when the filter is set to off (Hugo 2 white mode).


----------



## The Jester

Dave is the higher quality DAC,
I’d be more concerned if it was the other way around …


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/e...TEZDotA4i-u3Wo6zKV4ZzUgXqvhGoQWzoZUgtQBX6Ekek


I have mentioned before that I did some switch swopping a few months ago. Without mentioning which ones I tried, I can say that I was really surprised at the difference in sound quality due to the different switches. I tried them between the Cisco switch in my listening room and my streamer and played only locally stored audio files. The Cisco switch in the listening room is connected to the router by fibre.

That review you link to basically pours scorn on it being possible for there to be an audible difference by reiterating the well worn routine that the noughts and ones are unchanged so it is impossible for there to be any change in sound quality due to the switch (see the quote ** below). I guess most of us on here who have tried different components in the digital chain have moved on from that position some time ago.

** Quote from the tomshardware link, “_More to the point, short of some terrible components causing bits to flip — which would compromise any data traveling over a network switch — digital signals don't improve. The hardware either gets the complete transmission or it fails and repeats. The only real candidate for loss is in the digital to analog conversion, which the switch doesn't handle. But audiophiles will swear otherwise, in which case perhaps this product can join the many others of its ilk_.”

After my comparisons I bought the Innuos PhoenixNET based on a compelling sound difference between it and the alternatives.


----------



## rkt31

What about Davina ?


----------



## Kirklandia

Triode User said:


> After my comparisons I bought the Innuos PhoenixNET based on a compelling sound difference between it and the alternatives.


I have been contemplating adding a PhoenixNET and would like to know if the addition of the component is as noticeable as the improvement from the PhoenixUSB. All my music is streamed in a decently resolving set up.


----------



## Triode User

Kirklandia said:


> I have been contemplating adding a PhoenixNET and would like to know if the addition of the component is as noticeable as the improvement from the PhoenixUSB. All my music is streamed in a decently resolving set up.


I found the NET to be as much of an improvement as the PhoenixUSB but I have read of others who said they found the NET to give more of a change than the PhoenixUSB. That might depend on what they were using before the NET. The only reliable way for you to know is a home demo for a few days.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> After my comparisons I bought the Innuos PhoenixNET based on a compelling sound difference between it and the alternatives.


I'm curious if that difference still exists when using optical between the Streamer M-scaler (maybe with an opto-dx as well). Because if it does, even with perfect galvanic isolation and without USB's multiple issues, I'd really be curious to find out why.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> I'm curious if that difference still exists when using optical between the Streamer M-scaler (maybe with an opto-dx as well). Because if it does, even with perfect galvanic isolation and without USB's multiple issues, I'd really be curious to find out why.


I cant help there I’m afraid. Both of my streamers (K50 and Zenith Mk3) only have USB or BNC ouputs and I have no intention of acquiring a streamer with optical output.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> I cant help there I’m afraid. Both of my streamers (K50 and Zenith Mk3) only have USB or BNC ouputs and I have no intention of acquiring a streamer with optical output.


I got the Mind2 for specifically this reason but will compare with a Zenith via USB at one point.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> I got the Mind2 for specifically this reason but will compare with a Zenith via USB at one point.


I would suggest that if you want to compare say USB to optical as a concept you need to do it on the same streamer. Swopping streamers at the same time is changing two things at once which is never good for comparison purposes.


----------



## alxw0w

Also it's the best to disconnect USB (or bnc or what have you) while comparing to toslink.


----------



## alxw0w (Dec 20, 2021)

Damn the new album of Eric Clapton (The lady in the balcony) is just freaking amazing. It gets my strong recommendation to all Clapton listeners 
ps. Qobuz has hi res version.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> I would suggest that if you want to compare say USB to optical as a concept you need to do it on the same streamer. Swopping streamers at the same time is changing two things at once which is never good for comparison purposes.


Well i've done that before, i think the whole point why people bought USB reclockers and  Auralic Aries streamers was to fix the clocking issue (so  external clocks ). So i'm curious how "5k worth of usb" (at its "best") compares to 5$ worth of optical basically. But now people are saying it's also the USB receiver that has issues so it seems like optimizing the USB was a futile exercise. As a saving grace i guess came the SRC-DX so you can convert USB into coax. But It seems like USB can be forgotten entirely and replaced with coax (Unless you PGGB/HQplayer), which i have also tested vs optical out of the same streamer and fell into the same trap a lot of people do apparently (RF "benefits"). Soundstage got wider without an obvious loss of detail and i preferred it for a few months, thinking it was an upgrade. However tonality got brighter and i hated that. Noticed i started listening 3-4 db louder, gradually, over 2-3 months and listening less and less.
    Going back to optical, the black background is back, everything is more detailed, denser, bass is deeper, soundstage is deeper, but narrower however. Looking back i think i preferred coax because it fixed a flaw with my headphones (narrower soundstage due to it being closed back). Curiously Optical out of the streamer vs the pc still sounds a bit better, so i am curious what other benefits a better optical source would bring, having tested Aries G1 and Naim streamers via usb/coax...i was not impressed.


----------



## saudio7

I tested Aries G1 optical vs USB via iFi toys and USB sounds better, bigger soundstage, better layering and cleaner.


----------



## adrianm

saudio7 said:


> I tested Aries G1 optical vs USB via iFi toys and USB sounds better, bigger soundstage, better layering and cleaner.


Those were my initial impressions as well initially, but now i think it was just new toy excitement.


----------



## saudio7

adrianm said:


> Those were my initial impressions as well initially, but now i think it was just new toy excitement.


I am checking from time to time and still prefer USB with iGalvanic and micro iUSB, unfortunately I have to use 3 USB cables and I would prefer simpler setup.


----------



## adrianm

saudio7 said:


> I am checking from time to time and still prefer USB with iGalvanic and micro iUSB, unfortunately I have to use 3 USB cables and I would prefer simpler setup.


I had an Igalvanic for a demo but it only worked for about 30 seconds before dying on me...didn't bother trying another one. It's getting fatiguing


----------



## saudio7

adrianm said:


> I had an Igalvanic for a demo but it only worked for about 30 seconds before dying on me...didn't bother trying another one. It's getting fatiguing


I have both iFi cleaners for few years now and no problems.


----------



## adrianm

Is anyone using Stealth or LCD-5 with Dave yet?


----------



## alxw0w

adrianm said:


> Is anyone using Stealth or LCD-5 with Dave yet?


@KMann seems to be using lcd 5 directly from Dave and the result is outstanding.

I'm impatiently waiting for my lcd5 demo. If the sound fits my tastes I'm going for it.


----------



## adrianm

alxw0w said:


> @KMann seems to be using lcd 5 directly from Dave and the result is outstanding.
> 
> I'm impatiently waiting for my lcd5 demo. If the sound fits my tastes I'm going for it.


I read, and asked him about it at launch  i'm curious if anyone else is  . Same here, I do have a bit of Fomo about not being able to audition the Stealth (since i'd rather have closed backs), but it doesn't sound like my cup of tea anyway.


----------



## alxw0w (Dec 24, 2021)

Yes i was also considering stealth, but I don't really want closed cans and I'm looking something just a tad darker in 8k-10k (more or less) area. Lcd5 seems to be perfect for my music choices as a lot of my tracks are heavy on vocal and tend to have issues with sibilants.

As now I'm extremely happy with he1000v2 (note V2 not SE), but on some tracks treble occasionally gets too hot. And also I feel that resolution and clarity in midrange could be better.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Can also confirm that the LCD-5 is really good directly out of the Dave. I also have a really nice speaker amp I use with the TC and Sr1a, but there's just no need with the LCD-5. Very efficient and great right out of the Dave.


----------



## Powersquat

saudio7 said:


> My first time posting here, I've been perusing the thread for some time, this is without doubt the best source of information about Dave I've come across, thank's to all contributors for providing so much valuable material.


Last week my new Dave arrived, I'd been considering trading in my TT2 against the Dave for some time, I received a trade in price that was beyond my expectation and in the end it really was an easy decision. 

I have the Dave in my relatively simple two Channel system, CD transport to the MScaler, Wave Storm dual BNC cables, Dave is connected to the dedicated power amp section of my Luxman L509x, my speakers are the Martin Logan Classic 9 electrostatic's.

I now have about 50 hours on the Dave, surprisingly it still continues to improve, I honestly didn't expect there to be much burn in time, but having read RW's thoughts on the subject perhaps it was my brain that required burning in.

I'm not going to attempt to describe what I'm hearing, but I'd just like to refer back to some of the more eloquent contributors, there have been many fine words written about Dave, I can only agree, Dave is one very special audio component.


----------



## jlbrach

adrianm said:


> Is anyone using Stealth or LCD-5 with Dave yet?


yes, I use the dave with the lcd-5 and it is terrific


----------



## Slim1970

jlbrach said:


> yes, I use the dave with the lcd-5 and it is terrific


+1


----------



## Christer

alxw0w said:


> Yes i was also considering stealth, but I don't really want closed cans and I'm looking something just a tad darker in 8k-10k (more or less) area. Lcd5 seems to be perfect for my music choices as a lot of my tracks are heavy on vocal and tend to have issues with sibilants.
> 
> As now I'm extremely happy with he1000v2 (note V2 not SE), but on some tracks treble occasionally gets too hot. And also I feel that resolution and clarity in midrange could be better.


I am also using the HEKV2 and like it even better after having upgraded from stock cable to a ZMF OFC cable which imho made an already good headphone sound even bettter.
I also experienced some occasional  sibilance and overbrightness  problems with the thin little stock cable but the OFC much thicker solid copper cable  has solved those problems .
It would of course be interesting to compare it to Susvara again using this cable with both.
With stock cables Susvara quite easily beat my HEKV2. But it was not a night and day difference, but  a bit warmer, fuller and more refined SQ with Susvara.
And most of my comparisons where  made with a Dave/HMS with extra amp involved and my reference hi res  masterfiles of  symphonic music.

Cheers CC


----------



## alxw0w

Christer said:


> I am also using the HEKV2 and like it even better after having upgraded from stock cable to a ZMF OFC cable which imho made an already good headphone sound even bettter.
> I also experienced some occasional  sibilance and overbrightness  problems with the thin little stock cable but the OFC much thicker solid copper cable  has solved those problems .
> It would of course be interesting to compare it to Susvara again using this cable with both.
> With stock cables Susvara quite easily beat my HEKV2. But it was not a night and day difference, but  a bit warmer, fuller and more refined SQ with Susvara.
> ...


Yup I was thinking about upgrading stock cable for quite some time, stock one feels very thin and poor.

But after listening couple of headphones i feel that he1000v2 is not final word when it comes to refinement resolution and clarity - things that i strive for. Hence I want to try something higher end like lcd5.

Anyway he1000v2 is really pleasing headphone to listen. Especially with classical orchestral type music (but not only) Tonally it's very pleasing and in my humble opinion it could be called baby Susvara (i had opportunity to listen Susvara at the dealer with nice hifiman amp and indeed it was very very good experience)


----------



## rkt31

Try dca stealth and r70x with dave. R70x is the bargain of century kind of headphone, it is so good in everything.


----------



## Darkliner

Do you people recommend using the better set of rca cables from dave to amp or from mscaler to dave?  Im using rca cables and will attach (rca to bnc) connectors for use with mscaler and dave.  I usually believe in using the better set of cables closer to the source components and in this case mscaler comes before dave.  But, since dave is doing more of the heavy lifting as compared to mscaler, I wonder where,  I should use the better set of cables.


----------



## adrianm

Can confirm, these (both) are amazing with Dave


----------



## VladYR

adrianm said:


> Can confirm, these (both) are amazing with Dave


I used to love the Z1R but for some reason I didn’t enjoy them with Dave. I’m considering getting the new closed back model from Meze. Either that or Focal Utopia. I had a chance to listen to Stellia and the sound was quite pleasant but I wasn’t thrilled with the level of comfort.


----------



## Tubewin

VladYR said:


> I used to love the Z1R but for some reason I didn’t enjoy them with Dave. I’m considering getting the new closed back model from Meze. Either that or Focal Utopia. I had a chance to listen to Stellia and the sound was quite pleasant but I wasn’t thrilled with the level of comfort.


The Utopia is better, and in my opinion, noticeably so. The Stellia has a metallic echo to the sound (probably from the sound hitting the metal enclosure and coming back to your ears),  the Utopia does not. I didn't notice this until I got the Utopia's and compared them. I loved my Stellia's until that point. If you liked the sound of the Stellia, chances are, you will also like the Utopia.


----------



## JTbbb

Tubewin said:


> The Utopia is better, and in my opinion, noticeably so. The Stellia has a metallic echo to the sound (probably from the sound hitting the metal enclosure and coming back to your ears),  the Utopia does not. I didn't notice this until I got the Utopia's and compared them. I loved my Stellia's until that point. If you liked the sound of the Stellia, chances are, you will also like the Utopia.


+1 Utopia goes great with Dave.


----------



## JTbbb

VladYR said:


> I used to love the Z1R but for some reason I didn’t enjoy them with Dave. I’m considering getting the new closed back model from Meze. Either that or Focal Utopia. I had a chance to listen to Stellia and the sound was quite pleasant but I wasn’t thrilled with the level of comfort.


If you decide to go for the Utopia’s, keep your eyes peeled on the classifieds and send a message to every dealer with your requirements and budget. Twice I was offered a brand new pair, with the later packaging, for under £3000. But I really wanted the earlier packaged ones with the single 1/4 jack cable. My request came up trumps as I was offered an open box pair of the latter for some hundreds of pounds less than £3000. They are as good as brand new, and Focal have given me the full 5 year warranty!

Happy Hunting.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

VladYR said:


> I used to love the Z1R but for some reason I didn’t enjoy them with Dave. I’m considering getting the new closed back model from Meze. Either that or Focal Utopia. I had a chance to listen to Stellia and the sound was quite pleasant but I wasn’t thrilled with the level of comfort.


Meze Liric would be a quite drastic change from Z1R in sound signature. Liric is kind of brighter, thinner, and more upfront midrange area.


----------



## adrianm (Dec 29, 2021)

VladYR said:


> I used to love the Z1R but for some reason I didn’t enjoy them with Dave. I’m considering getting the new closed back model from Meze. Either that or Focal Utopia. I had a chance to listen to Stellia and the sound was quite pleasant but I wasn’t thrilled with the level of comfort.


I've auditioned the Liric when it came out for a weekend. Absolutely great for the price point, sound great out of Dave, but I'd recommend them for a portable setup. Imaging is worse than Z1R , as is soundstage, but tuning is muuch better (also compared to Stellia ) , as were highs and speed. I absolutely hate the Stellia (comfort too), auditioned them 3 times. They sound thin to me and more congested than Z1R, but the tuning was more neutral.
    Utopias are amazing with Dave. The punch is amazing, the speed is great, the tuning is great, however the soundstage is a bit narrow, and i feel like Meze Elite kind of top them for most stuff, except punch (though it's closer than most planars).
    For me it's going to be between the Elites and the LCD-5 next summer. Having heard them both...i like the LCD-5 more but it's closer than i would've thought.


----------



## NYanakiev (Jan 1, 2022)

Hey chaps- I am thinking of ordering a DCA Stealth for use with my DAVE+Mscaler. 

Any thoughts on whether DAVE is able to drive it well enough?
Many thanks!


----------



## x RELIC x

NYanakiev said:


> Hey chaps- I am thinking of ordering a DCA Stealth for use with my DAVE+Mscaler.
> 
> Any thoughts on whether DAVE is able to drive it well enough?
> Many thanks!


Dan Clark (Stealth designer) likes his Stealth with theHugo2, so the DAVE should drive it fine.


----------



## adrianm

Does anyone have any advice on how to use Roon's EQ properly considering the M-scaler is in the chain? I feel like it complicates things.


----------



## ecwl

adrianm said:


> Does anyone have any advice on how to use Roon's EQ properly considering the M-scaler is in the chain? I feel like it complicates things.


The moment you DSP the signal you’re sending to M-Scaler, you’re degrading the sound.
First, the EQ/convolution filter probably is not sufficiently accurate despite supposed 64-bit accuracy. But the bigger issue is that Roon would presumably then have to dither that EQ’d signal back to 24/32-bit to feed M-Scaler and these processes do sacrifice a little bit of soundstage depth (and rarely even instrumental depth of volume). In a good system and if you’re paying attention, you should be able to hear this. If you decide to use a convolution filter, instead of straight EQ, setting it wrong can potentially significantly affect the timing of transients. 

That’s why I don’t use any DSP when listening using headphones. Unfortunately, my room acoustic is extremely messed up so with speakers, I accept the mild sonic degradation as a trade off because letting my messed up room determine the sound would make things even worse. My take is that you can try using EQ in Roon and you can then A/B to see what’s better in Roon. I have a setting called Headphone Listening which basically has no EQ. And then I have other EQ/convolution filter settings that I switch back and forth.


----------



## adrianm

ecwl said:


> The moment you DSP the signal you’re sending to M-Scaler, you’re degrading the sound.


 The LCD-5 thread all got their pitchforks out when I pointed this out a month ago. Nevertheless, I'd like to at least try it out with them before making a decision on pulling the trigger. I'd rather not mess around with EQ either, but I'm curious what exactly is this holy grail I'd supposedly be missing by not going it. It would be straight up parametric EQ. I've done it without enabling Headroom management or sample rate conversion. It introduced some weird artifacts and i was told that might be the case. Not sure how I should configure them manually to account for the M-scaler. Or if there is a "right way " of doing it.


----------



## ecwl

adrianm said:


> The LCD-5 thread all got their pitchforks out when I pointed this out a month ago. Nevertheless, I'd like to at least try it out with them before making a decision on pulling the trigger. I'd rather not mess around with EQ either, but I'm curious what exactly is this holy grail I'd supposedly be missing by not going it. It would be straight up parametric EQ. I've done it without enabling Headroom management or sample rate conversion. It introduced some weird artifacts and i was told that might be the case. Not sure how I should configure them manually to account for the M-scaler. Or if there is a "right way " of doing it.


If you're going to EQ and your EQ just lowers the volume at certain frequencies, you shouldn't need to use Headroom management.
However, if your EQ settings would increase the volume at certain frequencies, you should enable Headroom management. For example, if the maximum EQ is say +5dB at 1kHz with whatever Q, then you need to set the Headroom management to -5dB. Otherwise, whenever you hit the 1kHz note and if it's super loud in the recording, that +5dB EQ would clip that note and create artifacts.
You shouldn't need to use sample rate conversion. Sample rate conversion definitely worsens timing accuracy significantly. You should never turn that on.
Now lowering the volume via Headroom management would also affect the soundstage depth. 

The reason why people get their pitchforks out are because:
1) Some people just can't hear certain things. It may be equipment related. It may be hearing training related. Or it may be fundamentally hearing related. People don't like to be told they can't hear certain things. Especially if their hobby is audio.
2) Sometimes the improvements from EQ is so big that the sonic gain is better than the subtle loss of soundstage depth. So the problem is just ignored.


----------



## jlbrach (Jan 1, 2022)

NYanakiev said:


> Hey chaps- I am thinking of ordering a DCA Stealth for use with my DAVE+Mscaler.
> 
> Any thoughts on whether DAVE is able to drive it well enough?
> Many thanks!


it isnt...it needs an amp...yes, you can listen to it but it wont be optimal....the stealth surprisingly needs tons of power


----------



## 801evan

NYanakiev said:


> Hey chaps- I am thinking of ordering a DCA Stealth for use with my DAVE+Mscaler.
> 
> Any thoughts on whether DAVE is able to drive it well enough?
> Many thanks!


Super good on the Dave. Dave can drive the Susvara, which means it can also drive the Stealth. Though it needs a line conditioner + using Spdif inputs for better quality and lower distortion.


----------



## DJJEZ

801evan said:


> Super good on the Dave. Dave can drive the Susvara, which means it can also drive the Stealth. Though it needs a line conditioner + using Spdif inputs for better quality and lower distortion.


The DAVE cannot drive susvara. You need to stop with your trolling and trying to get people to argue with you. No-one on here or Any other forum is gonna agree with your crazy statements.


----------



## 801evan (Jan 3, 2022)

DJJEZ said:


> The DAVE cannot drive susvara. You need to stop with your trolling and trying to get people to argue with you. No-one on here or Any other forum is gonna agree with your crazy statements.


You're trolling coz that's all you can say the whole time... 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️ You do the same thing with anyone who doesn't follow your purchasing choices. We've seen how you dismissed Lachlan's review. 😉

You have to accept some people can set up the Dave better than others.


----------



## rkt31

There is no reason for dave not be able to drive susvara. Dave has plenty of output combined with low output impedance.


----------



## 801evan

alxw0w said:


> That's common thing that is always told all over the internet.
> On the other hand some people (for example in Susvara thread) claims that it is a marvelous combo. But from the other side a lot of the folks says that you need 100wat+ speaker amp to drive them.... - that's to me sounds like a complete nonsense.
> Anyway
> Doing "math" it seems like Dave would drive Susvara to 110-112db before it would clip - so that's very very/extremely loud.
> ...


The Dave can drive the Susvara. The issue is the chain most people have with the Dave gives the impression that the Dave can't drive it. So the Dave becomes the scapegoat.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jan 3, 2022)

Whats to setup? These mosfets can drive them or not. Nothing to setup or you can change about these physics? Sound can be altered by lps or filters but power it can not. If you dont have any clue what you are taking about you can better not speak or you will confuse people


----------



## 801evan

What a friendly bunch...if you insist having a  life of owning a Dave where you can't drive a Susvara, a headphone that only needs <142mw, so be it.


----------



## ecwl

801evan said:


> What a friendly bunch...if you insist having a  life of owning a Dave where you can't drive a Susvara, a headphone that only needs <142mw, so be it.


I think this debate of whether DAVE can drive specific low-sensitivity headphones is confusing to most people and I think actually, everybody is right.

I bring my DAVE to the local head-fi meet sometimes and what I've found is that people listen to music (the same songs) with the same headphones at completely different volumes. I would say it varies by 25dB. I was shocked that a couple of people listen at 5dB less than me and a few others at 20dB louder than me (which I thought was painful to my ears). In fact, I would say most would listen at 5-10dB louder than me.

Hence, I'm not surprised when some people say they found that DAVE can't drive Susvara or Stealth while others say they can (since DAVE would start digitally clipping at +4dB). It comes down to how loud you like to listen.

That said, another thing I noticed at the local head-fi meets is that sometimes, DAVE can easily drive a headphone (even at 20dB louder than my preferred volume) but some people just like their preferred amplifier's (distorted?) sound. Like some headphone amplifier has higher output impedances so the bass would sound different with their low impedance headphones. But honestly, that's a rarer scenario. I found the former scenario to be much more prevalent.

I can't comment on Stealth or even Susvara since I've never heard them. But I can say that even for HE1000v2, which is more sensitive than Susvara, my DAVE can drive the HE1000v2 at comfortable volumes although occasionally, it'll be close to maxing out. But I know that at least 80% of my fellow local head-fi meet members would find that DAVE is not powerful enough to drive the HE1000v2 because they prefer to listen at a louder volume. I strongly suspect Susvara would be even more so.


----------



## 801evan (Jan 3, 2022)

ecwl said:


> I think this debate of whether DAVE can drive specific low-sensitivity headphones is confusing to most people and I think actually, everybody is right.
> 
> I bring my DAVE to the local head-fi meet sometimes and what I've found is that people listen to music (the same songs) with the same headphones at completely different volumes. I would say it varies by 25dB. I was shocked that a couple of people listen at 5dB less than me and a few others at 20dB louder than me (which I thought was painful to my ears). In fact, I would say most would listen at 5-10dB louder than me.
> 
> ...


When I first got the src dx, it was outputting at only half volume due to a Linux issue and it put me in a situation of doing full volume on the susvara (+16dB or +18dB). I'm not sure if that created a situation where one should expect some clipping/distortion, but it didn't. Perhaps there's a testament here. When I sorted the src dx out, my listening volume is -6dB to -4dB. I can go to +1dB where its crazy loud for me as a test and it was fine. Most clipping scenarios in my experience is source quality. My Soekris would blink it's clipping light if my CDT + OCXO hasn't warmed up overnight or is using stock psu. This is one of the factor that introduces clipping and has nothing to do with the Dave's amplifier. A poor source that creates a high noise floor situation will introduce clipping because one is trying to fight and the transients WILL introduce clipping.


----------



## sm60

ecwl said:


> I think this debate of whether DAVE can drive specific low-sensitivity headphones is confusing to most people and I think actually, everybody is right.
> 
> I bring my DAVE to the local head-fi meet sometimes and what I've found is that people listen to music (the same songs) with the same headphones at completely different volumes. I would say it varies by 25dB. I was shocked that a couple of people listen at 5dB less than me and a few others at 20dB louder than me (which I thought was painful to my ears). In fact, I would say most would listen at 5-10dB louder than me.
> 
> ...


If you routinely listen at high volumes with headphones, you can throw away the Dave and get a $500 Topping or any other DAC that measures just as well. Your hearing is probably shot so it makes no difference. People are astonishingly naive about how delicate the hearing mechanism is that we all take for granted. At the most sensitive frequency, the eardrum moves less than the width of a hydrogen atom. Astonishing that such a tiny displacement can be detected by our brain. Don’t destroy your precious hearing by headphone listening at high volumes. It’s not worth it!


----------



## 801evan

sm60 said:


> If you routinely listen at high volumes with headphones, you can throw away the Dave and get a $500 Topping or any other DAC that measures just as well. Your hearing is probably shot so it makes no difference. People are astonishingly naive about how delicate the hearing mechanism is that we all take for granted. At the most sensitive frequency, the eardrum moves less than the width of a hydrogen atom. Astonishing that such a tiny displacement can be detected by our brain. Don’t destroy your precious hearing by headphone listening at high volumes. It’s not worth it!


The ability to drive loud is nothing to be proud off. Ear trauma will set in so fast that the ability to hear nuance is zero and so is the ability to A/A, nevermind A/B.


----------



## rkt31

There is no point in listening to higher than normal volume because there is a particular volume which gives the impression like  vocal are in front of you with reference to other instruments. This volume also gives the correct depth and width perception. This volume is most of the time lot less than most audiophiles boast to listen to.


----------



## 801evan

ecwl said:


> I think this debate of whether DAVE can drive specific low-sensitivity headphones is confusing to most people and I think actually, everybody is right.
> 
> I bring my DAVE to the local head-fi meet sometimes and what I've found is that people listen to music (the same songs) with the same headphones at completely different volumes. I would say it varies by 25dB. I was shocked that a couple of people listen at 5dB less than me and a few others at 20dB louder than me (which I thought was painful to my ears). In fact, I would say most would listen at 5-10dB louder than me.
> 
> ...


To be clear, this is the same pair of headphones but different songs where people would listen -5dB and +20dB compared to you? If it's the same song same headphone then wow on the variance. If it's the same headphone but different personal tracks, the reason is the nominal loudness of different tracks. And the variance is around 14-25dB nominal level. One might be listening to EDM and the other listens to jazz and that
 explains it.


----------



## alxw0w

Oh yes loudness is funny thing. Some people just love to listen loud. Or maybe it's not loud to them? Maybe they lost so much hearing? Or maybe they can tolerate higher loudness?

I remember once we were comparing headphones with friend of mine.
 I was just shocked how loud he is listening. The sound from headphones was blasting so freaking hard I couldn't stand it for more than 5-10 seconds it was just painful 😖
But he was like "what's wrong with you, it's not that loud..."

Same thing happened when we were listening to speakers. Volume was so high that i could tolerate it, but barely. It was too loud I couldn't focus on music. I felt disturbed and nervous even though we were listening to some vocal jazz that is rather smooth and calm music.

Im just amazed how some people just don't care about their ears. I want to enjoy music even in my older age. But some just love their head to be smashed with sledgehammer. 🤔


----------



## 801evan

alxw0w said:


> Oh yes loudness is funny thing. Some people just love to listen loud. Or maybe it's not loud to them? Maybe they lost so much hearing? Or maybe they can tolerate higher loudness?
> 
> I remember once we were comparing headphones with friend of mine.
> I was just shocked how loud he is listening. The sound from headphones was blasting so freaking hard I couldn't stand it for more than 5-10 seconds it was just painful 😖
> ...


Just as well, the ability to have a conversation in a loud bar when I couldn't hear squat.


----------



## number1sixerfan

The Dave does not drive the Susvara or even the TC well. They absolutely sound better with an adequate headphone/speaker amp behind it. I would not spend that kind of money on headphones just to limit their performance, seems like an obvious waste of money imo. For efficient headphones however, the Dave does an excellent job.


----------



## ecwl

801evan said:


> To be clear, this is the same pair of headphones but different songs where people would listen -5dB and +20dB compared to you? If it's the same song same headphone then wow on the variance. If it's the same headphone but different personal tracks, the reason is the nominal loudness of different tracks. And the variance is around 14-25dB nominal level. One might be listening to EDM and the other listens to jazz and that
> explains it.


Same bit-perfect source (no volume adjustments), same DAVE, same headphones, same song, -5dB to +20dB difference in listening volume compared to me.


----------



## jlbrach

801evan said:


> Super good on the Dave. Dave can drive the Susvara, which means it can also drive the Stealth. Though it needs a line conditioner + using Spdif inputs for better quality and lower distortion.


dont listen to this guy..if you buy a susvara and think you can drive it with your chord dave you will be sorely disappointed...I do not really care what this individual thinks but I want to keep potential buyers from finding out too late  that they will either need to add an amp or sell the susvara....as one who owns several HP's including the susvara and the dave I have no desire to mislead.....the dave actually drives HP's like the utopia or lcd-5 and to a lessor degree the solitaire P very well....the abyss on some recordings can be driven out of the dave....the susvara simply cannot to the level one would expect for a 6K HP....


----------



## jlbrach

801evan said:


> The ability to drive loud is nothing to be proud off. Ear trauma will set in so fast that the ability to hear nuance is zero and so is the ability to A/A, nevermind A/B.


this is not an argument or discussion about driving to loud volumes which you can do with most any source...it is about being able to take advantage of a HP as good as the susvara and being able to get the best out of it...even rob watts acknowledges the dave cannot drive the susvara properly...it can as I said earlier drive most HP's quite nicely


----------



## iDesign (Jan 3, 2022)

ecwl said:


> I think this debate of whether DAVE can drive specific low-sensitivity headphones is confusing to most people and I think actually, everybody is right.
> 
> I bring my DAVE to the local head-fi meet sometimes and what I've found is that people listen to music (the same songs) with the same headphones at completely different volumes. I would say it varies by 25dB. I was shocked that a couple of people listen at 5dB less than me and a few others at 20dB louder than me (which I thought was painful to my ears). In fact, I would say most would listen at 5-10dB louder than me.
> 
> ...


Great post. I wish HeadFi had additional profile fields for things like age, listening volume, hearing loss, music genre, tonal preferences, ear/canal size (for IEM and tip recommendations) etc. As the community has grown in recent years, I’ve found it increasingly difficult to understand reviews because few provide enough context. Members like “Romaz“ and “aaf evo“ seemingly have the ability to identify/pinpoint the smallest flaws and accurately describe their perception of sound. For future reference, I only listen to classical recordings using the Focal Utopia with the Blu MkII and DAVE at -30dB which is very low. If I were to raise the volume to “teenangster levels” and listen to a genre like EDM, my opinions of the same equipment would probably change entirely.


----------



## jlbrach

-30?...gee, congrats on having very very good hearing


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## 801evan

jlbrach said:


> dont listen to this guy..if you buy a susvara and think you can drive it with your chord dave you will be sorely disappointed...I do not really care what this individual thinks but I want to keep potential buyers from finding out too late  that they will either need to add an amp or sell the susvara....as one who owns several HP's including the susvara and the dave I have no desire to mislead.....the dave actually drives HP's like the utopia or lcd-5 and to a lessor degree the solitaire P very well....the abyss on some recordings can be driven out of the dave....the susvara simply cannot to the level one would expect for a 6K HP....


Kindly explain how the Dave lacks power to drive Susvara if there's still +20dB worth of headroom. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️


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## HeeBroG

jlbrach said:


> -30?...gee, congrats on having very very good hearing


That has to be lower SPL than at a concert hall!


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## rkt31

Correct volume setting gives you the impression of singer singing in front of you. This volume is generally lower than what people most audiophiles tend to listen to.


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## HeeBroG

ecwl said:


> Hence, I'm not surprised when some people say they found that DAVE can't drive Susvara or Stealth while others say they can (since DAVE would start digitally clipping at +4dB). It comes down to how loud you like to listen.


I might be mistaken but I think this +3dB maximum with DAVE alone only applies if the recording was done at 0dBFS.

Some recordings are a little "softer" than this or if there is a hardware issue like with the SRC-DX, mentioned earlier, which would allow one to increase the volume beyond +3dB without causing clipping.


----------



## 801evan

jlbrach said:


> .if you buy a susvara and think you can drive it with your chord dave you will be sorely disappointed...I do not really care what this individual thinks but I want to keep potential buyers from finding out too late that they will either need to add an amp or sell the susvara


I'd be more disappointed with a fried susvara due to some bad advice of running a speaker amp. I've seen at least 8 fried susvaras due to being used with a speaker amp. And like a cult, the speaker amp users says to keep on going because Hifiman just has poor QC. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️ 

Here's another question for the big speaker amp fans, if the power requirement of the Susvara is indeed so, why didn't Hifiman rated it as so? My method have successfully aligned to the specs Susvara gave. If the Susvara was designed for a speaker amp, why does it tiptoe in such a small window of sounding great with lots of power and breaking at that level?


----------



## 801evan

ecwl said:


> Same bit-perfect source (no volume adjustments), same DAVE, same headphones, same song, -5dB to +20dB difference in listening volume compared to me.


Same song.👀👀 I relatively listen softer than other ppl in my audio circle. I reckon due to my ear being more resonant faster on the upper mids than the other guy, this is what the Flare Calmer tackles for example but I also understand how loud to play before ear trauma sets in. Meanwhile, my partner listens at much softer levels. And we both go to live music shows. Loud ones. Interestingly I always go to shows with Etymotics ear plugs, my partner doesn't. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## number1sixerfan

801evan said:


> I'd be more disappointed with a fried susvara due to some bad advice of running a speaker amp. I've seen at least 8 fried susvaras due to being used with a speaker amp. And like a cult, the speaker amp users says to keep on going because Hifiman just has poor QC. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️
> 
> Here's another question for the big speaker amp fans, if the power requirement of the Susvara is indeed so, why didn't Hifiman rated it as so? My method have successfully aligned to the specs Susvara gave. If the Susvara was designed for a speaker amp, why does it tiptoe in such a small window of sounding great with lots of power and breaking at that level?



Hifiman literally sells a premium speaker amp just for pairing with the Susvara lol 

But I'm not looking for an argument here, btw. Just want to dispute the "Dave can drive any headphone' mantra that pops up here from time to time. And it isn't about volume, it's about driving the headphones to their full capability. The Dave simply cannot.


----------



## genefruit

HeeBroG said:


> I might be mistaken but I think this +3dB maximum with DAVE alone only applies if the recording was done at 0dBFS.
> 
> Some recordings are a little "softer" than this or if there is a hardware issue like with the SRC-DX, mentioned earlier, which would allow one to increase the volume beyond +3dB without causing clipping.


If memory serves, the +3db is referring to the RCA/XLR outputs and not the headphone output. Rob Watts has stated that +5can be used with headphones above 33ohms
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-355#post-12951029


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## 801evan

number1sixerfan said:


> Hifiman literally sells a premium speaker amp just for pairing with the Susvara lol
> 
> But I'm not looking for an argument here, btw. Just want to dispute the "Dave can drive any headphone' mantra that pops up here from time to time. And it isn't about volume, it's about driving the headphones to their full capability. The Dave simply cannot.


Yep. Made to order. Which means they aren't even confident in it. It's made for people whose chain has a high noise floor. HFM managed to capitalize on people's not-so-great chain build.


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## number1sixerfan

801evan said:


> Yep. Made to order. Which means they aren't even confident in it. It's made for people whose chain has a high noise floor. HFM managed to capitalize on people's not-so-great chain build.


Like I said, not looking for an argument. You got it.


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## rkt31

number1sixerfan said:


> Hifiman literally sells a premium speaker amp just for pairing with the Susvara lol
> 
> But I'm not looking for an argument here, btw. Just want to dispute the "Dave can drive any headphone' mantra that pops up here from time to time. And it isn't about volume, it's about driving the headphones to their full capability. The Dave simply cannot.


Did you know to drive a headphone or any driver you need current and voltage. Voltage is plenty with dave and current is decided by output impedance. Lower the output impedance more current it is able to supply on demand. And I don't need to tell about the output impedance of dave. In fact as rob watts say dave drives your headphones correctly because of extremely low output impedance. It is not affected by the passages requiring more current for which impedance dips. What more planars don't have variable impedance anyway. So it's a myth that dave doesn't drive susvara or any other planar. Since headphone are driven correctly so they sound fast and lean to which some people think not properly driven.


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## 801evan

ecwl said:


> Same bit-perfect source (no volume adjustments), same DAVE, same headphones, same song, -5dB to +20dB difference in listening volume compared to me.


What's wild too is that I listen to the lcd4 at -12dB, stealth at -10dB and susvara at -7dB. Which is a smaller variance vs  listening levels of different individuals.


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## genefruit

801evan said:


> What's wild too is that I listen to the lcd4 at -12dB, stealth at -10dB and susvara at -7dB. Which is a smaller variance vs  listening levels of different individuals.


The Susvara at 83 and Stealth at 86-87 are in alignment. The LCD4 seems off. Since it’s 97, I would have expected -21.


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## 801evan

ecwl said:


> I think this debate of whether DAVE can drive specific low-sensitivity headphones is confusing to most people and I think actually, everybody is right.
> 
> I bring my DAVE to the local head-fi meet sometimes and what I've found is that people listen to music (the same songs) with the same headphones at completely different volumes. I would say it varies by 25dB. I was shocked that a couple of people listen at 5dB less than me and a few others at 20dB louder than me (which I thought was painful to my ears). In fact, I would say most would listen at 5-10dB louder than me.
> 
> ...


I've noticed consistently that the Dave needs 24 hours minimum warm up time. The other indicator is it should be warm enough where hovering my hand above the chassis , I should feel the heat wave. If it's a bit under, Susvara can sound peaky and strident. It's something worth mentioning when doing meets to compensate for a cold Dave.


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## 801evan (Jan 4, 2022)

genefruit said:


> The Susvara at 83 and Stealth at 86-87 are in alignment. The LCD4 seems off. Since it’s 97, I would have expected -21.


It can depend on the setup and track actually. The 4 can be peaky so if the Stealth is at -10dB, the lcd4 can be around -17dB to -15dB. I baked in an EQ profile for the lcd4 to have it closely match the susvara and I can drive it louder since it's smoother. I didn't do -3dB pre-gain as I lose transparency all the time.  But what was more effective was having the cellphone of my partner off or when they are away. I usually have my cellphone, router/wifi, fridge and induction stove off during listening sessions. But it was that lone cellphone turned on that was giving off the peaks on the 4. Susvara and Stealth could afford that one cellphone to be on, for the sake of our relationship. In my best case scenario, the 4khz dip becomes more apparent with the 7khz peak gone so it's part of the reason why I can drive it slightly louder.


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## jlbrach

801evan said:


> I'd be more disappointed with a fried susvara due to some bad advice of running a speaker amp. I've seen at least 8 fried susvaras due to being used with a speaker amp. And like a cult, the speaker amp users says to keep on going because Hifiman just has poor QC. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️
> 
> Here's another question for the big speaker amp fans, if the power requirement of the Susvara is indeed so, why didn't Hifiman rated it as so? My method have successfully aligned to the specs Susvara gave. If the Susvara was designed for a speaker amp, why does it tiptoe in such a small window of sounding great with lots of power and breaking at that level?


you might want to take a look at the amp that hifiman designed for sale with and use with the susvara before making these silly comments


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## 801evan

jlbrach said:


> you might want to take a look at the amp that hifiman designed for sale with and use with the susvara before making these silly comments


You might wanna see they don't keep stock.


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## x RELIC x

iDesign said:


> Great post. I wish HeadFi had additional profile fields for things like age, listening volume, hearing loss, music genre, tonal preferences, ear/canal size (for IEM and tip recommendations) etc. As the community has grown in recent years, I’ve found it increasingly difficult to understand reviews because few provide enough context. Members like “Romaz“ and “aaf evo“ seemingly have the ability to identify/pinpoint the smallest flaws and accurately describe their perception of sound. For future reference, I only listen to classical recordings using the Focal Utopia with the Blu MkII and DAVE at -30dB which is very low. If I were to raise the volume to “teenangster levels” and listen to a genre like EDM, my opinions of the same equipment would probably change entirely.


I also listen with the Utopia from the DAVE at around -30, album depending… I’m shocked when I see others listen much louder.


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## bdjul

801evan said:


> You might wanna see they don't keep stock.


801evan, did you listen susvara with any other equipment then Dave?


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## 801evan (Jan 4, 2022)

Good question.

I've tried it with the ifi diablo and it sounds best on eco mode (low gain) balanced. I'd rather have it on eco mode SE vs normal gain SE as there is a perceived higher noiser floor and distortion. My ifi diablo is modded to run on external power with multi stage filtering. On stock battery, there's too much distortion that the details and the blacks gets buried so it gives a very grey presentation. Higher gain doesn't fix the problem. But you can see how an external amp can be assumed to be the solution. Point being, you can see power quality and chain quality is the ideal approach. Part of the reason of why a beefy amp may comparatively sound better is because you are paying for the better quality psu, not for the higher output.

I tried it on the Hugo 2 and it can drive it. Here's my quick take on a phone camera capture on:
https://m.facebook.com/groups/236162336799519/permalink/1355107498238325/

I asked a playlist from a  tt2 + susvara owner who claims the tt2 can't drive the sus as it was clipping. So I played the tracks and they all passed with flying colors on the Hugo 2 at a volume louder than I can tolerate and still pull off the sub bass. This proves that it's a chain issue and nothing about the Chord amplifier.

I didn't bother trying it on the dacmagic 200m since the Stealth scaled better with the Phonitor One as an external amp where I was hearing more refinement. Dacmagic is 300mW @ 32ohm, >65mW @ 150ohm so I know I'm pushing my luck and wouldn't pretend it can drive it.

Edit: also Dave straight to the wall doesn't make the Susvara sound good. I have everything independently behind a line conditioner.


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## Glossator

x RELIC x said:


> I also listen with the Utopia from the DAVE at around -30, album depending… I’m shocked when I see others listen much louder.


... I started at around that level, but having been through some of the 'refinement' hoops discussed in these pages, seem to have settled at -41 to -43!


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## 801evan

Glossator said:


> ... I started at around that level, but having been through some of the 'refinement' hoops discussed in these pages, seem to have settled at -41 to -43!


Wonderful. Exactly. When the chain is refined it lowers the noise floor and one will need less volume to counter the noise. Then after further refinement, increased smoothness will be achieved and you can afford to crank it up a bit and have less ear fatigue.


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## TheAttorney

801evan said:


> I've noticed consistently that the Dave needs 24 hours minimum warm up time. The other indicator is it should be warm enough where hovering my hand above the chassis , I should feel the heat wave. If it's a bit under, Susvara can sound peaky and strident. It's something worth mentioning when doing meets to compensate for a cold Dave.


A number of people (Rob included) have said in the past that DAVE requires no warm-up time (or even burn-in time). I've found this not to be the case.
All my hifi is put into standby overnight. From "cold" immediately after standby, I find that DAVE sounds a touch dark, which helpfully hides a multitude of HF sins, which is not unpleasant, but it also hides a level of fine detail. Over the next hour it swings into a slight over-brightness and then gradually settles down. There are other variables when listening over a long period, but I'm satisfied that I can hear no further improvement after around 5-8 hours. This effect is more subtle than other hifi components I've owned, but it's enough IMO to unbalance a well-balanced system.  

Regarding listening levels on my DAVE > HEKse, this is set between -40 to -42dB for most modern recordings. Max of -43dB for the loudest ones, and min of about -30dB for the quietest classical recordings. I've measured this with a soundmeter to be in the 70 to 75dB range at my ears. At meets, I cringe when I see how loud some others set their listening levels. I politely say something like "Wow, that's much louder than I'm used to". When what I really mean is "You are a recklessly stupid fool. You should be old enough now to know that this will eventually permanently damage your hearing". Anyway, I agree with the comments that listening volume is a big factor in peoples' differing reactions to the same hifi equipment.


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## 801evan

Yea on a cold start the susvara sounds undynamic,slow and small sounstage. Around 4 hours it's a bit bright/airy.


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## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> A number of people (Rob included) have said in the past that DAVE requires no warm-up time (or even burn-in time). I've found this not to be the case.
> All my hifi is put into standby overnight. From "cold" immediately after standby, I find that DAVE sounds a touch dark, which helpfully hides a multitude of HF sins, which is not unpleasant, but it also hides a level of fine detail. Over the next hour it swings into a slight over-brightness and then gradually settles down. There are other variables when listening over a long period, but I'm satisfied that I can hear no further improvement after around 5-8 hours. This effect is more subtle than other hifi components I've owned, but it's enough IMO to unbalance a well-balanced system.


I will not have noticed this because I have my Dave fully powered up 24/7.


----------



## number1sixerfan

rkt31 said:


> Did you know to drive a headphone or any driver you need current and voltage. Voltage is plenty with dave and current is decided by output impedance. Lower the output impedance more current it is able to supply on demand. And I don't need to tell about the output impedance of dave. In fact as rob watts say dave drives your headphones correctly because of extremely low output impedance. It is not affected by the passages requiring more current for which impedance dips. What more planars don't have variable impedance anyway. So it's a myth that dave doesn't drive susvara or any other planar. Since headphone are driven correctly so they sound fast and lean to which some people think not properly driven.



It's already been said that Rob Watts has said it doesn't drive the Susvara properly. I really don't understand the stubbornness on this topic. If you try them with and without a dedicated amp it is clearly underpowered. If people like listening to their gear sub-optimally, I guess that's fine. But again, just seems like quite a waste of money.


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## 801evan

Dave HP out is rated at .5A

Ifi HP calculator with susvara and Diablo low gain SE selected shows that at .06A max output, it can still drive the Susvara at 102dB.


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## genefruit

number1sixerfan said:


> It's already been said that Rob Watts has said it doesn't drive the Susvara properly. I really don't understand the stubbornness on this topic. If you try them with and without a dedicated amp it is clearly underpowered. If people like listening to their gear sub-optimally, I guess that's fine. But again, just seems like quite a waste of money.


I've searched both the site and the web for Rob Watts + Susvara with no relevant response.  @Rob Watts I believe it would be helpful to have your response to this discussion?


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## adrianm

genefruit said:


> I've searched both the site and the web for Rob Watts + Susvara with no relevant response.  @Rob Watts I believe it would be helpful to have your response to this discussion?


2016 flashback


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## genefruit

adrianm said:


> 2016 flashback


Yeah, it's been a topic since 2017 without a direct quote from Rob, as far as I could find.  Regardless of his answer, it'll not change anyone's take on the matter.


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## Rob Watts

genefruit said:


> I've searched both the site and the web for Rob Watts + Susvara with no relevant response.  @Rob Watts I believe it would be helpful to have your response to this discussion?


I can't recall a posting on the Susvara for Dave, as my position on it is nuanced in that it depends on the listener. Dave can drive it to 92 dB SPL, which for me would be (just) fine; I normally run my headphones at a max of 90dB SPL. But to many listeners 92dB would not be enough, so it really depends upon the listener. From a current drive POV the Susvara is easy for Dave, it's just voltage limited above 92dB SPL.

To summarise - if you are using solo Dave, you can run to +4 on the volume control for 0dBFS sources; with an M scaler it's +7. So if volume levels on loud tracks are less than this then Dave can drive it perfectly; if with this volume you prefer an amp, then you are preferring distortion, colouration or lack of transparency.


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## iDesign (Jan 4, 2022)

For perspective, how many of these inefficient flagship headphones now in question were released well after the DAVE was designed? Few members in this discussion even own the Susvara, and if you impulse purchased it to use with the DAVE, that speaks volumes. Chord never sold you the DAVE claiming it could power HIFIMAN‘s latest kit. It’s not like Rob Watts didn’t include plenty of outputs— find the amplifier you like and move on.


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## adrianm

Rob Watts said:


> I can't recall a posting on the Susvara for Dave, as my position on it is nuanced in that it depends on the listener. Dave can drive it to 92 dB SPL, which for me would be (just) fine; I normally run my headphones at a max of 90dB SPL. But to many listeners 92dB would not be enough, so it really depends upon the listener. From a current drive POV the Susvara is easy for Dave, it's just voltage limited above 92dB SPL.
> 
> To summarise - if you are using solo Dave, you can run to +4 on the volume control for 0dBFS sources; with an M scaler it's +7. So if volume levels on loud tracks are less than this then Dave can drive it perfectly; if with this volume you prefer an amp, then you are preferring distortion, colouration or lack of transparency.


FWIW, @mrspeakers  had a similar position regarding Dave and Stealth, which is almost as inefficient. But then again, you guys are BFFS so if people don't trust you on this, they won't trust him


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## 801evan

So far, there hasn't been reports of Dave frying a Susvara as well.


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## number1sixerfan

Definitely, correction on the quote mentioned. Almost added that as a caveat before posting and should've. Also, I think it's a mistake focusing on volume (not talking about Rob's direct post) and not quality of sound. Susvara/TC sound more anemic out of the Dave and I don't agree that this is synonymous with 'transparency' or due to coloration. I've also not come across anyone that prefers using either with the Dave. I don't think it's reasonable to say that's primarily due to everyone just loving coloration.. but I know that's always what's stated. I've seen the countless debates on here regarding this and I'm not at all intending to open that can of worms here.  

In any event, doubling down on what I mentioned earlier that surely everyone can enjoy what they enjoy. I would just say certainly again if you pay for the Susvara or TC, etc. I would just thoroughly test with and without and come to your own, evidenced conclusion.


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## 801evan (Jan 4, 2022)

To attest to the transparency of the Dave, and the importance of signal chain, Goldensound said his reference test on sibilance is an Axwell and Grosso track because since his Holo May and Spring 3 + ahb2  + Susvara is sibilant on it, then it must be sibilant. But that track isn't sibilant across 4 of my DACs, including the Hugo 2 and the Dave on the Susvara. There are parts where the vocal track itself has some baked in sibilance but it's fairly obvious it sits on a  lower tonality than where real sibilance should reside.


----------



## Rob Watts

adrianm said:


> FWIW, @mrspeakers  had a similar position regarding Dave and Stealth, which is almost as inefficient. But then again, you guys are BFFS so if people don't trust you on this, they won't trust him


Stealth with Dave would be an ear damaging 100dB SPL - some 8dB more than Susvara.


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## 801evan

NYanakiev said:


> Hey chaps- I am thinking of ordering a DCA Stealth for use with my DAVE+Mscaler.





Rob Watts said:


> Stealth with Dave would be an ear damaging 100dB SPL - some 8dB more than Susvara.


👆👆👆 @NYanakiev  straight from the boss.


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## thePhones (Jan 4, 2022)

I think the feeling that Dave can not drive some headphone well or dynamic enough is coming from the impression of a total lack of distortion in the bass (except you really mean the headphones are too quiet).
The first time I went from Hugo 2 to Dave, I felt it has lost some drive/weight in the signature. But after some time I noticed that it just separates everything better and cleaner with more nuance to every note. Now when I go back to Hugo 2 I don‘t feel like it has more bass anymore, just not as well separated, I even think the Dave has more bass now.
I like to use the analogy of going from very salty and fat burger (which has some kick to it, no doubt) to haute cuisine. The first time you try it it‘s lacking taste, but after some time you notice it has a lot more flavoures to it than the hefty burger.
If you still like Burger more after that experience you are not wrong but it is not because the french food did not have enough flavoures.


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## adrianm

Rob Watts said:


> Stealth with Dave would be an ear damaging 100dB SPL - some 8dB more than Susvara.


I'm not sure if an anemic 100db could really damage your ears .


----------



## jlbrach

801evan said:


> You might wanna see they don't keep stock.


might be because it costs 15k and there is a limited audience for such an expensive amp but obviously since it was designed for optimal performance by hifiman and it is worlds more powerful than the dave they have a different thought process than you do...I love my dave I love my susvara..I use a bakoon 13r with it and it is worlds better


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## jlbrach

801evan said:


> Dave HP out is rated at .5A
> 
> Ifi HP calculator with susvara and Diablo low gain SE selected shows that at .06A max output, it can still drive the Susvara at 102dB.


do you not realize that to deal with dynamic peaks etc having enough power to make them work isnt ideal?....if a person spends the money for a susvara and dave they will be forced to buy an amp or sell the dave or susvara...


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## Rob Watts (Jan 5, 2022)

adrianm said:


> I'm not sure if an anemic 100db could really damage your ears .


Take a look at this. Hearing loss at 100dB SPL within 15 minutes. Even listening at 80 dB will give hearing loss after 2 hours.

The UK legal limit for noise is 80dB for 8 hours; for music events it's supposed to be no more than 95db (but this of course is never enforced). If you expose yourself to more than 80dB for long periods you will suffer long term hearing loss. For a music lover your hearing ability is crucial, so download a sound level meter onto your phone, and checkout how loud you are actually listening at; and if you want to preserve your hearing, listen for long periods below 80dB.


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## Triode User

Rob Watts said:


> Take a look at this. Hearing loss at 100dB SPL within 15 minutes. Even listening at 80 dB will give hearing loss after 2 hours.
> 
> The UK legal limit for noise is 80dB for 8 hours; for music events it's supposed to be no more than 95db (but this of course is never enforced). If you expose yourself to more than 80dB for long periods you will suffer long term hearing loss. For a music lover your hearing ability is crucial, so download a sound level meter onto your phone, and checkout how loud you are actually listening at; and if you want to preserve your hearing, listen below 80dB.


 Rob, very good advice (I was going to say very sound advice but I could already hear the groans from the cheap seats).

However it might be my default setting of always looking for humour if it was intended by the poster but my guess is that @adrianm had his tongue very firmly in his cheek when he referred to an anemic 100dB. I hope so anyway!


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## TheAttorney (Jan 6, 2022)

As has been stated many times on many threads, it's not just about the calculated power matching - i.e. how loud the headphones can go before the amp clips.
It's also about the _quality_ of power at any point before clipping starts. And one factor affecting the quality of power is ICD (Instantaneous Current Delivery) i.e. whether the amp can deliver the full current IN AN INSTANT to 100% match the INSTANT transients in the music. And keep repeating that ICD across a series of transients.

IMO the reason why some Susvara owners choose large loudspeaker amps is that it's obviously much easier to achieve ICD if the amp has a massive power supply with massive reserves of power. But there's no reason a carefully designed low powered amp can't also achieve ICD if that's what designer sets out to do. There are probably other factors as well - I just use ICD as an example to stop people unhelpfully debating over-simplified power calculations that is not the real issue in question.

As it happens, I'm perfectly happy with the way DAVE drives my HEKse's. Glorious sound. And if one day I should consider a Susvara, it won't be with a giant loudspeaker amp, but there are a number of  dedicated headphone amps of various power that allegedly sound great with the Susvara.


----------



## adrianm

Rob Watts said:


> Take a look at this. Hearing loss at 100dB SPL within 15 minutes. Even listening at 80 dB will give hearing loss after 2 hours.
> 
> The UK legal limit for noise is 80dB for 8 hours; for music events it's supposed to be no more than 95db (but this of course is never enforced). If you expose yourself to more than 80dB for long periods you will suffer long term hearing loss. For a music lover your hearing ability is crucial, so download a sound level meter onto your phone, and checkout how loud you are actually listening at; and if you want to preserve your hearing, listen for long periods below 80dB.


Appreciate you taking the time to explain, my Dave is usually at -36 to -42 db depending on the track, peaks are usually at 70-75 db (i do use a phone app to measure for every new headphone i test).



Triode User said:


> However it might be my default setting of always looking for humour if it was intended by the poster but my guess is that @adrianm had his tongue very firmly in his cheek when he referred to an anemic 100dB. I hope so anyway!


It was definitely a dig at the power hungry audiophiles  I'm still pretty torn on what to believe myself on this topic. I know some people disagree with Rob about Dave's power output  being enough (even though Watts is literally his last name  ) , and one might chalk that up to " he's a dac designer protecting his product ", but Dan Clark also he said 0.4W(if i remember correctly) would be enough for Stealth to perform optimally, while stating he thinks Dave is too analytical and enjoys the warmth of tube amps.
   Since he's literally the guy who designed the headphones, there should be a more scientific rebuttal to these claims than "it sounds anemic" imo.


----------



## Jawed

A phone dB meter can easily be wrong by 20 or 30dB. Different apps on your phone will produce different readings.

Additionally, the phone likely hard-clips the SPL that can be measured. My current phone hard limits at about 72dB according to one app. I have a microphone I use with REW (Umik USB) but it's been a while since I compared the phone and the Umik. My phone used to hard limit at a higher number with the same app. I don't trust the number it shows.

dBA or dBC SPL weighting is another factor. Mainly, these two give very different readings for bass: 

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-dba-spl.htm


----------



## Ciggavelli

So, I tried my TCs out of my DAVE with the DC4.  Oh my, the DAVE actually drives them very well now with the new PSU.  I had no idea that the DC4 power supply made the headphone output in the front much stronger.  The DAVE is now going to be my go to solid state.  I'm kinda floored that this has happened


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> So, I tried my TCs out of my DAVE with the DC4.  Oh my, the DAVE actually drives them very well now with the new PSU.  I had no idea that the DC4 power supply made the headphone output in the front much stronger.  The DAVE is now going to be my go to solid state.  I'm kinda floored that this has happened


Finally some heat getting off me. 🤣🤣 Cheers man. You didn't bother trying it before or maybe it's the long break in period?


----------



## Ciggavelli

801evan said:


> Finally some heat getting off me. 🤣🤣 Cheers man. You didn't bother trying it before or maybe it's the long break in period?


I did try it before prior to the DC4, and I was not happy with the volume and bass.  I had assumed that the DC4 wouldn't change that, so I never tried it, embarrassingly.  You actually made me try it with the Susvara, and I was surprised that the DAVE drove them so high (I still prefer the bass out of my wa33 though).  So, today I tried the TCs and I'm amazed.  This is a new chapter in my setup.   

Those with the DC4, try out your harder to drive headphones with the DAVE now.


----------



## ra990

801evan said:


> Finally some heat getting off me. 🤣🤣 Cheers man. You didn't bother trying it before or maybe it's the long break in period?


How much did you bribe @Ciggavelli with to post that?


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> I did try it before prior to the DC4, and I was not happy with the volume and bass.  I had assumed that the DC4 wouldn't change that, so I never tried it, embarrassingly.  You actually made me try it with the Susvara, and I was surprised that the DAVE drove them so high (I still prefer the bass out of my wa33 though).  So, today I tried the TCs and I'm amazed.  This is a new chapter in my setup.
> 
> Those with the DC4, try out your harder to drive headphones with the DAVE now.


Oh yea. Exactly. The clue in what I said was I admit the Dave + susvara is unlistenable straight to the wall but behind a line conditioner it's ace.


----------



## 801evan

ra990 said:


> How much did you bribe @Ciggavelli with to post that?


How much do u want too? I made a killing in btc and Solana.


----------



## Ciggavelli

ra990 said:


> How much did you bribe @Ciggavelli with to post that?


 

I'm literally floored that the DC4 has done this to my DAVE.  And no, in case anybody is wondering, I am not joking


----------



## 801evan

(copying and pasting all the mud thrown at me)


----------



## Ciggavelli

To be clear though, the DC4 is a massive power upgrade for your DAVE, and I'm not sure if other power supplies will offer similiar benefits, but who knows


----------



## ra990

Each time I consider upgrading to the DAVE, all this talk of over the top BNC cables and power supplies turns me off.


----------



## Ciggavelli

This schitt actually hits harder than my HSA-1b with the TCs.  Fukcing crazy


----------



## iDesign

ra990 said:


> Each time I consider upgrading to the DAVE, all this talk of over the top BNC cables and power supplies turns me off.


I agree, it overshadows one of the finest DACs available and several valuable members have left Head-Fi over it.


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> To be clear though, the DC4 is a massive power upgrade for your DAVE, and I'm not sure if other power supplies will offer similiar benefits, but who knows


I believe that that's why I was surprised with what you said the other day so I was just happy my line conditioner can do better than the dc4 and that I saved so much money. Now I'm bothered. Lol.


----------



## Ciggavelli

801evan said:


> I believe that that's why I was surprised with what you said the other day so I was just happy my line conditioner can do better than the dc4 and that I saved so much money. Now I'm bothered. Lol.


I'm not sure the line conditioner is doing that though, but I don't know.  I need to do some more experimenting...


----------



## JTbbb

ra990 said:


> Each time I consider upgrading to the DAVE, all this talk of over the top BNC cables and power supplies turns me off.


Upgrade to Dave, and enjoy “normal” headphones with the standard power supply. Many of us are 😀


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> You actually made me try it with the Susvara, and I was surprised that the DAVE drove them so high (I still prefer the bass out of my wa33 though


Did you set it at HF ON? Much better for Susvara. And that's the thing. The Dave actually shows the true response of the Susvara that is consistent to all measurement graphs. It lacks some midbass so some tubes help on that. But I prefer the Stealth in this case as it's perfect in it's response and getting the most transparency since I don't need tubes.


----------



## Ciggavelli

801evan said:


> Did you set it at HF ON? Much better for Susvara. And that's the thing. The Dave actually shows the true response of the Susvara that is consistent to all measurement graphs. It lacks some midbass so some tubes help on that. But I prefer the Stealth in this case as it's perfect in it's response and getting the most transparency since I don't need tubes.


I'll give it a try later today


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> I'll give it a try later today


Be careful. It's so transparent you'll start to hear the TC distortion. 🤣 But then the susvara is missing the midbass. 🤣

Sorry but i have to tell u the next secret, you have to start using MQA. Let the streamer do the first unfold (NOT ROON! Mconnect or Bubbleupnp hopefully). And the lower distortion in MQA will give more of the midbass the Susvara needs and you'll be in a newer chapter in your life on the same day.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> Be careful. It's so transparent you'll start to hear the TC distortion. 🤣 But then the susvara is missing the midbass. 🤣
> 
> Sorry but i have to tell u the next secret, you have to start using MQA. Let the streamer do the first unfold (NOT ROON! Mconnect or Bubbleupnp hopefully). And the lower distortion in MQA will give more of the midbass the Susvara needs and you'll be in a newer chapter in your life on the same day.


How is distortion in MQA lower? It been proven to be lossy.


----------



## Ciggavelli

How can I measure the watts coming out of the headphone jack on my DAVE?  I'm willing to buy a tool (if it isn't outrageously priced)


----------



## adrianm

ra990 said:


> Each time I consider upgrading to the DAVE, all this talk of over the top BNC cables and power supplies turns me off.


Well you already have the TT2 so that all applies to you anyway. I almost bought the Bartok before Dave because of this, and i still consider getting a one box solution sometimes. Dave isn't the issue though, the M-scaler is. Hopefully the new one will fix these issues.
    I wouldn't hesitate if i were you. I'd take solo Dave in stock form over mTT2  any day, and i don't really miss the M-scaler too much when travelling without it.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> How is distortion in MQA lower? It been proven to be lossy.


Lossy in data, which simply means it's not for archival purposes. But it's lossless up to 48khz and lossy above that. But as I've been saying, distortion loves distortion so that's why people are more inclined to think it's horse shakes because they expect it to be a silver bullet. Once you get to a certain level of power quality, mqa will be superior. Astrud Gilberto MQA is better than it's Hi-Res 192khz counterpart in the Dave in my tests. DC4 owners may want to test this through mconnect or Bubbleupnp.


----------



## ra990

801evan said:


> Sorry but i have to tell u the next secret, you have to start using MQA. Let the streamer do the first unfold (NOT ROON! Mconnect or Bubbleupnp hopefully). And the lower distortion in MQA will give more of the midbass the Susvara needs and you'll be in a newer chapter in your life on the same day.


Oh no, are you also for MQA? Now you've really done it...get ready...


----------



## adrianm

Ciggavelli said:


> I'm not sure the line conditioner is doing that though, but I don't know.  I need to do some more experimenting...


Well you can tell us about the difference the DC4 made considering  you already had the Sigmas. For me, the Aquarius makes the bass A LOT deeper and harder hitting, adds depth, better definition and smooths the highs.


----------



## 801evan

ra990 said:


> Oh no, are you also for MQA? Now you've really done it...get ready...


Only applies to DC4 owners. Stock psu owners can stick to Qobuz.


----------



## ra990

adrianm said:


> Well you already have the TT2 so that all applies to you anyway. I almost bought the Bartok before Dave because of this, and i still consider getting a one box solution sometimes. Dave isn't the issue though, the M-scaler is. Hopefully the new one will fix these issues.
> I wouldn't hesitate if i were you. I'd take solo Dave in stock form over mTT2  any day, and i don't really miss the M-scaler too much when travelling without it.


Not quite, the problem of RF is much easier to deal with on the mTT2. I am running both off quality LG batteries and my input is TOSlink, so I'm completely eliminating any RF from even entering the system. A few batteries set me back about $200, that's nothing in comparison with WAVE BNC cables or DC4 power supply.


----------



## 801evan (Jan 5, 2022)

"Oh no, are you also for MQA? Now you've really done it...get ready..."

Imagine ciggavelli is starting to hear what I hear. And I did a whole round of:
192khz hi-res vs mqa vs pggb 768 vs pggb 384 vs HQplayer offline render 768 vs HQplayer offline render 384

Mqa came out on top. 192khz was second.

I wouldn't touch pggb or HQplayer. It makes the soundstage flat, shifted timbre, destroyed imaging. It's a bandaid for r2r NOS lovers.


----------



## Slim1970

ra990 said:


> Each time I consider upgrading to the DAVE, all this talk of over the top BNC cables and power supplies turns me off.


Neither are needed to really enjoy the Dave. The Dave is great on its own accord. If you wanted to add those items later on you can. There are plenty of Dave owners who don't have a DC4. A quality set of BNC cables, maybe. I enjoyed the stock Dave for months before getting a different set of BNC cables. The changes are incremental at best. Don't let the talk about aftermart cables and mods stop you from owning one of the best  DAC's ever created. Just remember DAC first, everything that comes afterwards is subjective


----------



## adrianm

ra990 said:


> Not quite, the problem of RF is much easier to deal with on the mTT2. I am running both off quality LG batteries and my input is TOSlink, so I'm completely eliminating any RF from even entering the system. A few batteries set me back about $200, that's nothing in comparison with WAVE BNC cables or DC4 power supply.


I'm also running my M-scaler off a battery + optical from the streamer. Dave really is something else though,  in stock form. Completely agree with @Slim1970 .


----------



## Slim1970

ra990 said:


> Not quite, the problem of RF is much easier to deal with on the mTT2. I am running both off quality LG batteries and my input is TOSlink, so I'm completely eliminating any RF from even entering the system. A few batteries set me back about $200, that's nothing in comparison with WAVE BNC cables or DC4 power supply.


You can also get an OPTO DX optical system and run it off DC battery packs. It's what I use


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> I wouldn't touch pggb or HQplayer. It makes the soundstage flat, shifted timbre, destroyed imaging. It's a bandaid for r2r NOS lovers.


This i can agree with, at least for HQplayer. I would rather not do any upsampling than use it.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> This i can agree with, at least for HQplayer. I would rather not do any upsampling than use it.


Then I know you have a good setup and would be listening to you more. 😉


----------



## stemiki

Ciggavelli said:


> So, I tried my TCs out of my DAVE with the DC4.  Oh my, the DAVE actually drives them very well now with the new PSU.  I had no idea that the DC4 power supply made the headphone output in the front much stronger.  The DAVE is now going to be my go to solid state.  I'm kinda floored that this has happened


I had the same experience a few weeks ago trying the Abyss directly from DAVE versus the HPA4 which I then sold. When I didn't have the Scaler, the Abyss straight from DAVE had little control over the low frequencies. 
Now I like it and it sounds pretty identical to how it felt with HPA4. I think it is more the Scaler that brought about this improvement.


----------



## 801evan (Jan 5, 2022)

Redacted


----------



## jlbrach

Triode User said:


> Rob, very good advice (I was going to say very sound advice but I could already hear the groans from the cheap seats).
> 
> However it might be my default setting of always looking for humour if it was intended by the poster but my guess is that @adrianm had his tongue very firmly in his cheek when he referred to an anemic 100dB. I hope so anyway!


different amps at 80db sound completely different...pretty much any amp can drive a HP to 80db so that really means nothing just as any car can get to 120 mph


----------



## jlbrach

Ciggavelli said:


> To be clear though, the DC4 is a massive power upgrade for your DAVE, and I'm not sure if other power supplies will offer similiar benefits, but who knows


the dc4 is a big expense as well is it not?...I am sure it makes a big difference my powerman made a huge difference when added to my formula s


----------



## jlbrach

801evan said:


> "Oh no, are you also for MQA? Now you've really done it...get ready..."
> 
> Imagine ciggavelli is starting to hear what I hear. And I did a whole round of:
> 192khz hi-res vs mqa vs pggb 768 vs pggb 384 vs HQplayer offline render 768 vs HQplayer offline render 384
> ...


yes for an additional 10k for a power supply he hears better performance


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jan 5, 2022)

jlbrach said:


> the dc4 is a big expense as well is it not?...I am sure it makes a big difference my powerman made a huge difference when added to my formula s


It's starts at like $7400 for the DAVE psu (you can get an m-scaler one as well).

https://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/power-supplies/dc4-power-supply

While it is very expensive, it completely transformed my DAVE, and that was before I learned it made the DAVE substantially more powerful. I can drive the TCs very, very well.  It hits harder than other solid states.  I'm listening to the Susvaras on the DC4-DAVE, and it sounds very good actually.  The bass is a bit less than my WA33, but it is still very good.  The soundstage is a bit wider too, to my astonishment. The DC4 makes the DAVE more powerful than the TT2, which I felt was anemic with the Susvaras and TC out of the front headphone jack. I'm at -8db on the DAVE with my Susvara and the bass is hitting harder than the HSA-1b.  It's crazy

Now that I know the DC4 can make sure a big transformation, and I want to recommend it even more.  You can get the DC4 and finally listen to those really hard to drive headphones we all love.  You no longer need to spend a crazy amount on a separate tube amp and psu.  Now, I'm glad I have my WA33, for sure.  The DAVE just gives me a better solid state that I can listen to for a change in flavor from my WA33.


----------



## number1sixerfan

jlbrach said:


> different amps at 80db sound completely different...pretty much any amp can drive a HP to 80db so that really means nothing just as any car can get to 120 mph



This is really a basic fact that we've stated over and over. Plenty of amps/sources can drive them to audible volumes. It is a trivial point and anyone continuing to gloss over this distinction is simply being disingenuous.  



Ciggavelli said:


> So, I tried my TCs out of my DAVE with the DC4.  Oh my, the DAVE actually drives them very well now with the new PSU.  I had no idea that the DC4 power supply made the headphone output in the front much stronger.  The DAVE is now going to be my go to solid state.  I'm kinda floored that this has happened





stemiki said:


> I had the same experience a few weeks ago trying the Abyss directly from DAVE versus the HPA4 which I then sold. When I didn't have the Scaler, the Abyss straight from DAVE had little control over the low frequencies.
> Now I like it and it sounds pretty identical to how it felt with HPA4. I think it is more the Scaler that brought about this improvement.



Now this definitely makes more sense and does make the DC4 seem even more interesting than before, even though I'm not currently in the market for one. Good to know.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jan 5, 2022)

The farad super 3 lps solution for the dave will be out on the market next month for around 3k, final version is made and tested up coming weeks. Probably same results for 1/3 of the price. Testing it now for the last month and it is amazing. New dc inlets are ready. Made them last week.


----------



## ra990

Ciggavelli said:


> The DC4 makes the DAVE more powerful than the TT2


Come on now, this psu must be laced with something.


----------



## Jon L

MvRBE10 said:


> The farad super 3 lps solution for the dave will be out on the market next month for around 3k, final version is made and tested up coming weeks. Probably same results for 1/3 of the price. Testing it now for the last month and it is amazing.


Nah, that's too cheap to satisfy   I recommend to name it Super Duper Faraday and price it $20K, above the competition, in order to attract the audiophiles.


----------



## MvRBE10

Jon L said:


> Nah, that's too cheap to satisfy   I recommend to name it Super Duper Faraday and price it $20K, above the competition, in order to attract the audiophiles.


🤔 smart thinking..😁


----------



## 801evan

How many dc4 owners are there so far? I'm surprised that it seems everyone skipped or didn't try using the HP out with the TC or Susvaras for this long. I mean, mine is just on a line conditioner and my friend said it does sound better with it with the Susvara vs using a Chord integrated power amp. And he gets to keep his warranty on the Dave. 🤣 But it was also about source quality also on why the Dave was better than a power amp with the Susvara.  Especially putting sorbothanes on the src dx.


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> It's starts at like $7400 for the DAVE psu (you can get an m-scaler one as well).
> 
> https://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/power-supplies/dc4-power-supply
> 
> ...


Have you tried the Innous Phoenix to src dx route?


----------



## jlbrach (Jan 5, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> It's starts at like $7400 for the DAVE psu (you can get an m-scaler one as well).
> 
> https://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/power-supplies/dc4-power-supply
> 
> ...


sounds interesting but way too expensive for me at this time...if the narrative of this debate was that if you spend 10k for a power supply you can make your dave sound as good as it does with a TOTL amp I would have said ...ok.....but to me the dabate was the dave alone


----------



## 801evan

ra990 said:


> Come on now, this psu must be laced with something.


As I've been saying, it's psu power quality not amp quantity that's making the bass hit tighter and lower.


----------



## Ciggavelli

801evan said:


> Have you tried the Innous Phoenix to src dx route?


Nah, just Innuos Phoenix.  I may look into the SRC DX though


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jan 5, 2022)

jlbrach said:


> sounds interesting but way too expensive for me at this time...if the narrative of this debate was that if you spend 10k for a power supply you can make your dave sound as good as it does with a TOTL amp I would have said ...ok.....but to me the dabate was the dave alone


Well, some might prefer the solid state DAVE sound, or they don't want to buy tubes, don't have the space, etc.  I've been listening to my TCs out of my DC4 Dave for much of this evening.  I think I could be happy with just the DAVE with the DC4 and my TCs.  I do love my WA33, but this new more powerful DAVE is a game-changer for me.  It's good to have options too.  I can get the tube sound if I want it, and then if I want solid state clarity, I can also have it.  I'm a happy audiophile right now


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> Nah, just Innuos Phoenix.  I may look into the SRC DX though


The topping d10s is good too. Different sound. Take out the ribbon cable inside. Line it with electrical tape and copper tape 2x over, then cover the open ports. I prefer toslink. Then break it in nonstop for 5 days and it'll be cleaner and lower.


----------



## edwardsean

Ciggavelli said:


> Nah, just Innuos Phoenix.  I may look into the SRC DX though



The Phoenix > SRC-DX > dual BNC chain is extraordinary. Either piece on its own is a significant upgrade. The two combined provide their individual benefits, but also supplies Sean Jacobs power to the SRC-DX via the PS in the Phoenix. 

Some will not want to hear this, esp. this next part: the SQ scales up with better BNC cables. I started out with some good Nordost cables to test out the configuration. Once I confirmed the improvements, I moved to HFC CT2s and netted a few more notches of SQ.

I understand the pushback from all of this because of the expense and complex technical factors beyond "common sense." However, at one level, it is quite simple. Everything counts, from major components to little fuses to lines of code. And–everything–can be upgraded. But–nothing–has to be upgraded. The beauty of this is everyone can calibrate for themselves a custom level of investment vs. SQ.


----------



## 801evan (Jan 5, 2022)

edwardsean said:


> The Phoenix > SRC-DX > dual BNC chain is extraordinary. Either piece on its own is a significant upgrade. The two combined provide their individual benefits, but also supplies Sean Jacobs power to the SRC-DX via the PS in the Phoenix.
> 
> Some will not want to hear this, esp. this next part: the SQ scales up with better BNC cables. I started out with some good Nordost cables to test out the configuration. Once I confirmed the improvements, I moved to HFC CT2s and netted a few more notches of SQ.
> 
> I understand the pushback from all of this because of the expense and complex technical factors beyond "common sense." However, at one level, it is quite simple. Everything counts, from major components to little fuses to lines of code. And–everything–can be upgraded. But–nothing–has to be upgraded. The beauty of this is everyone can calibrate for themselves a custom level of investment vs. SQ.


That is correct. I'm doing 40x lt3045s USB chain vs the Innous Phoenix 2x lt3045. I got the SRC dx and while it improved over the USB input. I was still somewhat underwhelmed. (You heard it here folks...) But the game changer was putting 3x sorbothanes on the src dx and the blacks just became Vantablack. Silly and stupid but whatever. Imagine 5 usd dampeners being the last piece of the puzzle. Everything else has sorbothanes but the src dx and it still have a grey presentation until I put sorbothanes on it. And I've been using 17awg silver occ bnc cables with silver bnc plugs.


----------



## Progisus

3x sorbothanes on the src d - not sure I get what this. Can you elaborate please.


----------



## 801evan

Progisus said:


> 3x sorbothanes on the src d - not sure I get what this. Can you elaborate please.


Putting the sorbothanes dampeners help in the SQ. Helps stabilize the clocks more and decouples from shelf.


----------



## 801evan

edwardsean said:


> I understand the pushback from all of this because of the expense and complex technical factors beyond "common sense."


Yepp. They ask for proof too. I'm not interested in convincing skeptics. In this hobby, only skeptics lose out....well, also people who believes too much on measurements and weak sauce 'proof' by influencers and YT personalities also lose out, ironically.


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jan 5, 2022)

If somebody was to ask me to choose between an $8K standard edition WA33 or an around $8K DC4 for their DAVE, I’m not sure what I would recommend, and I loved my old standard edition WA33. I think the Elite is a bigger jump, but then again it costs double.

What a crazy audio day today 

@801evan your claims (that I thought were previously absurd) made me try out the headphone output on my DAVE. And for that I thank you 

I was doing some searching, and it appears most DC4 owners use their DAVE in a 2 channel setup. I’m thinking most people are just as unaware as I was about how much power the DC4 brings to the front headphone output. Sean Jacobs needs to make it a marketing statement on his website…lol.


----------



## 801evan (Jan 5, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> If somebody was to ask me to choose between an $8K standard edition WA33 or an around $8K DC4 for their DAVE, I’m not sure what I would recommend, and I loved my old standard edition WA33. I think the Elite is a bigger jump, but then again it costs double.
> 
> What a crazy audio day today
> 
> ...


Yea.... Ummm. I will tell you I slept like a baby after you said you couldn't drive the TC and Sus and you have the DC4 + Phoenixbecause I thought I hit gold with my chain. And now this... Haha.

But I'm happy I have a comrade in this hobby of being able to experience the best combination of the shortest path from the Dave, exploiting the headphone out stage of the Dave with our power solution to enjoy and understand Watt's life project.

And as I said in the last two post, I was still underwhelmed using the USB input. So look forward to more gains with the spdif input route.

As I said in the Stealth thread, I'm patiently waiting for more people to wake up to what I've been saying in the following months when more people adopt the m17. And that reply was directed at you too I think. I didn't expect the first person to fold was you as well and in just 48 hours. 🤣🤣


----------



## 801evan (Jan 5, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> I've been listening to my TCs out of my DC4 Dave for much of this evening


A good way to benchmark actually, since we are remote, eventually the Susvara will surpass the TC. Comparatively the out of phase response of the TC will be more apparent and the lower end will be more distorted than the Susvara.  The Susvara has a smoother response and lower distortion  and this becomes perceptually apparent as you move up in quality. When you have achieved this, you're ready for the Stealth. Also to add more to the confusion, I eventually like the LCD4 over the Susvara on the latest round of upgrades, which involves turning off all phones and wifi. One phone on causes enough interference to make the lcd4 peaky and lose out to the other 3 TOTL headphones. With all phones and wifi off, the LCD4 is smoother than the Susvara (with one phone on) and has more midbass. Although the 2-4khz dip is more apparent so female vocal peaks lives a bit lower, but more intelligible and relaxing.


----------



## ra990

801evan said:


> Also to add more to the confusion, I eventually like the LCD4 over the Susvara on the latest round of upgrades, which involves turning off all phones and wifi. One phone on causes enough interference to make the lcd4 peaky and lose out to the other 3 TOTL headphones. With all phones and wifi off, the LCD4 is smoother than the Susvara and has more midbass.


Make sure the wife and kids are asleep too, that helps keep the noise floor down.


----------



## 801evan

ra990 said:


> Make sure the wife and kids are asleep too, that helps keep the noise floor down.


I'm trying to rent the apartment next to me at this rate. But I'm making a faraday cage for now.


----------



## Ciggavelli

801evan said:


> A good way to benchmark actually, since we are remote, eventually the Susvara will surpass the TC. Comparatively the out of phase response of the TC will be more apparent and the lower end will be more distorted than the Susvara.  The Susvara has a smoother response and lower distortion  and this becomes perceptually apparent as you move up in quality. When you have achieved this, you're ready for the Stealth. Also to add more to the confusion, I eventually like the LCD4 over the Susvara on the latest round of upgrades, which involves turning off all phones and wifi. One phone on causes enough interference to make the lcd4 peaky and lose out to the other 3 TOTL headphones. With all phones and wifi off, the LCD4 is smoother than the Susvara (with one phone on) and has more midbass. Although the 2-4khz dip is more apparent so female vocal peaks lives a bit lower, but more intelligible and relaxing.


Your suggestions sound so absurd…lol. But, after the DC4 revelation today, I’m open to crazy ideas. More tweaking and experimenting tomorrow


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> Your suggestions sound so absurd…lol. But, after the DC4 revelation today, I’m open to crazy ideas. More tweaking and experimenting tomorrow.



Eventually you will agree....


----------



## jlbrach

Ciggavelli said:


> Your suggestions sound so absurd…lol. But, after the DC4 revelation today, I’m open to crazy ideas. More tweaking and experimenting tomorrow


I am reading this half laughing half paying attention...basically you are saying a wa33 or your power source both improve performance equally but of course they cost the same thing...those who own a dave without the enhanced power source are going to be super disappointed with the dave and susvara..I suppose given your description one makes a choice between amp or power source but dave on its own doesnt cut it with the susvara which I thought was the point of this whole debate...perhaps I am wrong?


----------



## 801evan

jlbrach said:


> I am reading this half laughing half paying attention...basically you are saying a wa33 or your power source both improve performance equally but of course they cost the same thing...those who own a dave without the enhanced power source are going to be super disappointed with the dave and susvara..I suppose given your description one makes a choice between amp or power source but dave on its own doesnt cut it with the susvara which I thought was the point of this whole debate...perhaps I am wrong?


That's why you have to consider my case of no mods to the Dave, but since I recognize it's potential and flaws, using Spdif in and using a line conditioner proves my case for the Dave. And also explains my truth bomb about those glowing Holo Audio May reviews which is your just paying for the USB board and a built in line conditioner. If one doesn't believe in a  digital chain and line conditioners, sure get the Holo May, which ironically incorporate two things you think doesn't work.  That's why with the Dave, I did my own USB chain to spdif and used a line conditioner that doesn't void the Dave warranty. This goes back to my narrative for the past two weeks where reviewers are putting blame or criticizing the wrong thing.


----------



## DJJEZ (Jan 6, 2022)

801evan said:


> That's why you have to consider my case of no mods to the Dave, but since I recognize it's potential and flaws, using Spdif in and using a line conditioner proves my case for the Dave. And also explains my truth bomb about those glowing Holo Audio May reviews which is your just paying for the USB board and a built in line conditioner. If one doesn't believe in a  digital chain and line conditioners, sure get the Holo May, which ironically incorporate two things you think doesn't work.  That's why with the Dave, I did my own USB chain to spdif and used a line conditioner that doesn't void the Dave warranty. This goes back to my narrative for the past two weeks where reviewers are putting blame or criticizing the wrong thing.


Enough with your nonsense. @Ciggavelli has a DC4, you do not. You are not hearing what he's hearing.The stock DAVE cannot drive susvara to  its full potential. Yes we know you hate holo audio and go out of your way to crap on it as much as possible at every opportunity given. You need to be banned from all audio groups and forums with your trolling.


----------



## 801evan

DJJEZ said:


> Enough with your nonsense. @Ciggavelli has a DC4, you do not. You are not hearing what he's hearing.The stock DAVE cannot drive susvara to  its full potential. Yes we know you hate holo audio and go out of your way to crap on it as much as possible every opportunity given. You need to be banned from all audio groups and forums.


Wow you're doubling down coz you got burned. Hehe.


----------



## alxw0w

MvRBE10 said:


> The farad super 3 lps solution for the dave will be out on the market next month for around 3k, final version is made and tested up coming weeks. Probably same results for 1/3 of the price. Testing it now for the last month and it is amazing. New dc inlets are ready. Made them last week.


Cant wait.


----------



## edwardsean

MvRBE10 said:


> The farad super 3 lps solution for the dave will be out on the market next month for around 3k, final version is made and tested up coming weeks. Probably same results for 1/3 of the price. Testing it now for the last month and it is amazing. New dc inlets are ready. Made them last week.


Should we infer from your picture that this solution will entail three separate units stacked together each with its own power cord?


----------



## MvRBE10

Yes but im my setup i use one power ac connecter. Did not want to use three spots did not have that room


----------



## Triode User

MvRBE10 said:


> The farad super 3 lps solution for the dave will be out on the market next month for around 3k, final version is made and tested up coming weeks. Probably same results for 1/3 of the price. Testing it now for the last month and it is amazing. New dc inlets are ready. Made them last week.


That is good progress. What you and Mattijs are doing for the Dave is really interesting and clever. A lower priced power supply for the Dave is such a good idea. I really hope I get to hear this. 

In my second system I used the Farad Super3 to power my Qutest and I must say I loved the sound of the combination having tried many other LPS before settling on the Super3. A few months ago I swopped in a DC4 to power the Qutest (I just used the 5V output from my Dave DC4) and it really was an ‘Oh, My Goodness. Wow!’ moment compared to the Super3. I even felt the combined DC4 + Qutest cost was a viable alternative to DACs of the same total price. Unfortunately I sold the Qutest before the latest ARC6 version of the DC4 was available so could not repeat the test with that.


----------



## 801evan

Triode User said:


> I even felt the combined DC4 + Qutest cost was a viable alternative to DACs of the same total price.


That is true!


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> I’m open to crazy ideas.


Forget to mention further, for Susvara, the combination setting is HF ON, and crossfeed on. 

HF ON cuts the ringing in the upper mids. Crossfeed adds a much welcomed mid bass and adds imaging.  It then sounds glorious on hard pan albums. Enjoy.


----------



## MvRBE10

This week gonna upgrade my test set with rodium inlets and these new purple fuses en changing some connector. This will be the full options version. Always been hesitant of the impact of fuses. In my early days was design engineer for littlefuse netherlands did alot of physical tests and calculation on degredation of fuses but back than never linked it to sound quality. Eager to hear the effect on that.

Personaly would elimante the fuse totally but for consumers thats not an option.


----------



## 801evan

MvRBE10 said:


> This week gonna upgrade my test set with rodium inlets and these new purple fuses en changing some connector. This will be the full options version. Always been hesitant of the impact of fuses. In my early days was design engineer for littlefuse netherlands did alot of physical tests and calculation on degredation of fuses but back than never linked it to sound quality. Eager to hear the effect on that.
> 
> Personaly would elimante the fuse totally but for consumers thats not an option.


Planning to take out the fuse on the hypsos and use quality inlets. It couldnt beat  a sub 150usd sparkos psu which I didn't incorporate a fuse on.


----------



## MvRBE10

Also had the hypsos on my tt2 when getting the dave it was not needed any more but was a fine lps and handy with the variable voltages.


----------



## 801evan

MvRBE10 said:


> Also had the hypsos on my tt2 when getting the dave it was not needed any more but was a fine lps and handy with the variable voltages.


How was the delta with the hypsos tt2 and the Dave farad mod?


----------



## MvRBE10

Got a few pages of review for you, just in the middle of the test and finalizing phase of the setup. Basicly the same improvements as the dc4 but not compared them. Gonna do that this year for sure with nick. Can pm you the whole review.


----------



## x RELIC x

Adding a power supply to the DAVE will not increase the power output of the DAVE. I wish people will realize that more bass is not exclusively the domain of more power. It’s correlation, not causation. Reminds me of a certain situation with a horse parasite treatment and a certain pandemic virus, type of argument…


----------



## MvRBE10

x RELIC x said:


> Adding a power supply to the DAVE will not increase the power output of the DAVE. I wish people will realize that more bass is not exclusively the domain of more power. It’s correlation, not causation. Reminds me of a certain situation with a horse parasite treatment and a certain pandemic virus, type of argument…


Absolutely true, was waiting till someone adressed it. Also regarding the design of the dave what determens the output wattage not the lps or smpt supply these only add or take away noise and or ripple etc….


----------



## genefruit

Not to drift too far into a sound science forum topic but perhaps us as listeners hone/change/mature our abilities and when we return to chains we've dismissed in the past it becomes enlightening.  Back to our regularly scheduled bedlam.


----------



## adrianm

MvRBE10 said:


> Absolutely true, was waiting till someone adressed it


Same, I was going to do it later tonight but...work


----------



## Triode User

MvRBE10 said:


> This week gonna upgrade my test set with rodium inlets and these new purple fuses en changing some connector. This will be the full options version. Always been hesitant of the impact of fuses. In my early days was design engineer for littlefuse netherlands did alot of physical tests and calculation on degredation of fuses but back than never linked it to sound quality. Eager to hear the effect on that.
> 
> Personaly would elimante the fuse totally but for consumers thats not an option.


I admit to being a fuse agnostic and also would have said that surely no fuse is the best option for sound (if not for safety) but recently I have been reading reports from users of the QSA fuses (Quantum Science Audio) where they report hugely better sound from having those fuses in circuit as opposed to no fuse. 

As for price I am afraid it is a reiteration of the "if you have to ask how much it is you can't afford it" quote. And no, I don't use any . . .


----------



## 801evan

I've explained this many times, it's power quality, not power quantity. But people are more interested in being hostile and the information gets buried.


----------



## 801evan (Jan 6, 2022)

Triode User said:


> (Quantum Science Audio) where they report hugely better sound from having those fuses in circuit as opposed to no fuse.


Better than no fuse? Where's the thread on this? This must be the 1k-ish fuse I'm hearing about judging from the way your talking about it. 🤣

Thing is, if the fuse has some silver, carbon, even if it's a short run, it will indeed be better than no fuse on a crap inlet. I use solid silver inlets.


----------



## Clive101 (Jan 6, 2022)

Most users in the UK have a plug with a 13 amp fuse unless they use an European Schuko to avoid having a UK fused cable.
Ditch the fuse in your plugs for an instant upgrade in SQ.......
The fuse protects the cable I have a Torus with a breaker that does the same thing so I do not need fuses.
So this is my upgraded plug   just add in a neutral post into the live or change around the fuse holder in this well know plug.

Caveat do not do this.

Changing the equipment internal fuses also changes the sound IMHO

Check out these links

https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/fuses/
https://www.psaudio.com/askpaulvideo/audiophile-fuses/

PS Tried the Blue and Orange


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jan 6, 2022)

jlbrach said:


> I am reading this half laughing half paying attention...basically you are saying a wa33 or your power source both improve performance equally but of course they cost the same thing...those who own a dave without the enhanced power source are going to be super disappointed with the dave and susvara..I suppose given your description one makes a choice between amp or power source but dave on its own doesnt cut it with the susvara which I thought was the point of this whole debate...perhaps I am wrong?


Yeah, I muddied up the waters with the DC4 talk.   But, it is relevant with talk of new power supplies and the DAVE power output.  If one owns a DAVE and wants to drive the Susvaras, they need to decide upon a DC4 or an external amp.  I'm just saying in that choice, it would be a tough to pick between a WA33 SE or the DC4


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> Yeah, I muddied up the waters with the DC4 talk.   But, it is relevant with talk of new power supplies and the DAVE power output.  If one owns a DAVE and wants to drive the Susvaras, they need to decide upon a DC4 or an external amp.  I'm just saying in that choice, it would be a tough to pick between a WA33 SE or the DC4


Easy answer. Always the DC4 or power conditioner. There's no way for an external amp to better a dac that has a psu upgrade. Garbage in, garbage out. It's tricky to upgrade the Dave and but just seeing how the Qutest scales on a power upgrade makes the answer clear.


----------



## Ciggavelli

x RELIC x said:


> Adding a power supply to the DAVE will not increase the power output of the DAVE. I wish people will realize that more bass is not exclusively the domain of more power. It’s correlation, not causation. Reminds me of a certain situation with a horse parasite treatment and a certain pandemic virus, type of argument…


False. I'm hearing it with my own ears, and I have the WA33 EE JPS to compare it to 🤷‍♂️

Honestly, I am very happy with this new found power in my DAVE brought about by the DC4, and if nobody else tries it, that will be fine with me.  I'm just super excited to have another solid state to use when I want a different flavor from my WA33


----------



## Triode User

801evan said:


> Better than no fuse? Where's the thread on this? This must be the 1k-ish fuse I'm hearing about judging from the way your talking about it. 🤣
> 
> Thing is, if the fuse has some silver, carbon, even if it's a short run, it will indeed be better than no fuse on a crap inlet. I use solid silver inlets.


The specific discussions I have seen are on a closed discussion group so cannot be repeated here but an internet search of QSA fuses will possibly give answers to some of your questions (I have not read any of those websites so I am guessing).

1k-ish fuse? You cheapskate!   I repeat, "if you have to ask how much it is you can't afford it". But think several times your guess to get close.

The only problem is completely dismissing the QSA fuses is that several people who have good ears (and no dog in the race) are very sure they make a positive difference.


----------



## 801evan

Triode User said:


> The specific discussions I have seen are on a closed discussion group so cannot be repeated here but an internet search of QSA fuses will possibly give answers to some of your questions (I have not read any of those websites so I am guessing).
> 
> 1k-ish fuse? You cheapskate!   I repeat, "if you have to ask how much it is you can't afford it". But think several times your guess to get close.
> 
> The only problem is completely dismissing the QSA fuses is that several people who have good ears (and no dog in the race) are very sure they make a positive difference.


I'm out due to the flash crash. 🤣🤣


----------



## adrianm (Jan 6, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> False. I'm hearing it with my own ears, and I have the WA33 EE JPS to compare it to 🤷‍♂️
> 
> Honestly, I am very happy with this new found power in my DAVE brought about by the DC4, and if nobody else tries it, that will be fine with me.  I'm just super excited to have another solid state to use when I want a different flavor from my WA33


I think what they were saying is that the improvement is due to better power, not more. Which ties in with that Rob was saying all along btw. And I agree, i don't see how a new psu would increase the power output of an amp. It would he helpful if you could measure it though.


----------



## Ciggavelli

adrianm said:


> I think what they were saying is that the improvement is due to better power, not more. Which ties in with that Rob was saying all along btw. And I agree, i don't see how a new psu would increase the power output of an amp. It would he helpful if you could measure it though.


I am 100% into measuring it, but I’m not sure how.

PSUs do change power ratings though, on PCs at least. A 400watt psu can’t run 2 high end GPUs, but a 1200watt psu can. So, if that holds true, the DC4 is doing the same for my DAVE and TCs (the “GPUs” in my analogy).

I’m no electrical engineer, but prior to the DC4, the TCs and Susvaras sounded much more anemic. With the DC4, the rival other powerful headphone amps.


----------



## ekfc63

alxw0w said:


> Cant wait.


Ditto.  Is there any intel on when it'll be available.


----------



## alxw0w

ekfc63 said:


> Ditto.  Is there any intel on when it'll be available.


Contact Mattijs from farad. On his page :
https://faradpowersupplies.com/shop/en/content/17-super3-on-chord-dave
on bottom you have an email link. Drop him a message and you will be informed when the thing comes out


----------



## MvRBE10

Yes it is, tomorrrow i will install the options, purple fuse, rodium inlets, and in about 2 weeks the final prints will arrive. Just came feom his place a hour ago and talked about this. I will probably need a week to assemble the hardware and test the first 10 sets. So end of the month it will be ready. The stock setup with no upgrade fuse and inlets will be 3.000,- euros incl vat. And the full options version will be 3.750,- inc vat. The effect of these upgrade i will review the upcoming two weeks. New silver dc leads have to be played in icw the fuses etc…

Pre ordering can be done already ofcourse. I thought he told me 6-7 people already mailed him about this.


----------



## ekfc63 (Jan 6, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> Yes it is, tomorrrow i will install the options, purple fuse, rodium inlets, and in about 2 weeks the final prints will arrive. Just came feom his place a hour ago and talked about this. I will probably need a week to assemble the hardware and test the first 10 sets. So end of the month it will be ready. The stock setup with no upgrade fuse and inlets will be 3.000,- euros incl vat. And the full options version will be 3.750,- inc vat. The effect of these upgrade i will review the upcoming two weeks. New silver dc leads have to be played in icw the fuses etc…
> 
> Pre ordering can be done already ofcourse. I thought he told me 6-7 people already mailed him about this.


Assuming you're referring to the Dave PSU I look forward to hearing your findings.  How does the full options version differ from the stock version?


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jan 6, 2022)

Synergy research purple fuses in al three in my case 4 lps’s with the scaler, rodium furutech ac inlets instead of stock cheaper ones. Got some work to do this night.


----------



## adrianm

MvRBE10 said:


> The stock setup with no upgrade fuse and inlets will be 3.000,- euros incl vat. And the full options version will be 3.750,- inc vat.


Is this still the 3 Farad super setup, or an all in one box option?


----------



## MvRBE10

Here are my writings of the last few weeks, sorry for the length. Part one you van find a few pages back.

Review farad lps part two
After 2 weeks of constantly playing music on the dave with the new farad lps with some constant intervals I listened to the same pieces of music but also tried to analyze some amazing songs that I know very well. Below some of my obvious notes i made these last two weeks and what stood out
Bass has gotten a different character besides more presence and strength on almost all tracks, the already not so bad sounding thumps that were not really drawing attention now shifted to a more sole identity of that bass that contributes much more to the soul of each song.
The opportunity is also much more there to just focus on for example a voice or violin and tell your brain to cancel out the rest of the music. It almost feels like looking direct into the eyes of the artist.
Drama free from deadmau5 is a difficult song for a lot of setups and mostly in the beginning of the song Pre-lps upgrade. After the linear upgrade the voices tend to come looser of the overwhelming continued bass humm and synth. It's a noisy song but now the ease and rest has kicked in to selectively listen, it's like breathing the fresh swiss mountain air instead of flat country air (not city that always sucks).
From a technical point of view, what i always tend to approach due to the way i am, I expected the amplifier to have the most control over transients and power of a song. But I now start to realize that the beginning of the chain probably has much more influence as i expected. And is much more important.
Listening on low volumes also gives much more satisfaction. The deep dynamic character of the music stays much more sustained than before and with higher volumes. 
Elton john’s ‘love song’ tapping feet in the right high corner is much more becoming a feet as i hear it instead of a high tick. The playing kids in the rear you can locate and give an accurate position and the waving sea has become much more distant and a bit like a 3d painting.


Spacious songs, live and where room ambiance is present got a lot more ease or less fatigue, how you approach that i guess and have become much more musical. Monica Mancini with skylark is singing in a holistic surrounding where she now sings more in the front and her hoarse voice has become much more pleasant and adds a sort of truth to my brain. 
Sarah mclachlan, an angel her voice is truly sung from out of heaven. The piano now is almost in the same league as her voice and is competing for attention. The closing and opening of her lips are can be heard and compliment the light touches of the piano keys. Really eerie now. The low keys notes of the piano or synth are pounding through my room and make you open your eyes each time. Bizarre song
Effortless listening to music and fatigueless on higher volumes, instruments are sliding 3D through your ears creating an absurde realistic stage and image in front of you. Jaw dropping without exaggerating everytime and it's getting better with small steps after 7/8 days now.
Also below -24dB in my system the dave seems to find to level out its max dynamic range it seems that’s sort of a sweet spot were everything has maximum depth stage and realism.
Celestial echo of malia the bass is relentlessly eerie and floats through the room and takes your eardrums like a feeling of water with no pressure through your head. You slowly when your eyes are shut go into a trance that feels like a warm bath. Absurd, it always sounded beautiful but a lot of music now feels like you understand what the maker was trying to create and that the search of us addicted audiophiles found it at last, that sums up a bit this lps upgrade.

The two weeks its online now i noticed a slight shift to become somewhat more smooth and less edgy but that’s really tiny and could be my brain but anyways the pleasant side of the spectrum. Could be changing more in the next few weeks i dont now that. Kudos for farad anyways till now.


----------



## MvRBE10

adrianm said:


> Is this still the 3 Farad super setup, or an all in one box option?


3 farad setup, the case of three separate transformers and leads is also much better than in one case, seperate digital from analogue voltage etc etc. I can understand the inconvience for this but function over form.


----------



## edwardsean

MvRBE10 said:


> Synergy research purple fuses in al three in my case 4 lps’s with the scaler, rodium furutech ac inlets instead of stock cheaper ones. Got some work to do this night.


Do you find the Purple are a worthwhile upgrade from the Orange?


----------



## MvRBE10

No idea never heard the orange one this is my first fuse experience. Going from stock gkass to this one. Dunno what to expect


----------



## adrianm

MvRBE10 said:


> 3 farad setup, the case of three separate transformers and leads is also much better than in one case, seperate digital from analogue voltage etc etc. I can understand the inconvience for this but function over form.


Aren't the Super 3's  like 500 euros each? how do 3 of them end up costing 3k?


----------



## MvRBE10

There are three silver cables included in the set and a monitor print. I believe they are 500,- excl vat. Look at his website the prices are there incl the new negative lps.


----------



## audio_1

Ciggavelli said:


> Yeah, I muddied up the waters with the DC4 talk.   But, it is relevant with talk of new power supplies and the DAVE power output.  If one owns a DAVE and wants to drive the Susvaras, they need to decide upon a DC4 or an external amp.  I'm just saying in that choice, it would be a tough to pick between a WA33 SE or the DC4


I believe it's an easy decision, a good power supply dramatically improves the transparency and sound quality of the Dave. An additional amplifier and interconnect cables have the opposite effect and just distort or colour the sound. (especially a balanced amp with Dave) The quality of the source is most important in a hi-fi system. Lost quality can't be brought back! The simpler the analogue part of a hi-fi system the better.


----------



## number1sixerfan (Jan 6, 2022)

audio_1 said:


> I believe it's an easy decision, a good power supply dramatically improves the transparency and sound quality of the Dave. An additional amplifier and interconnect cables have the opposite effect and just distort or colour the sound.



Except in scenarios where under-amplification from the Dave provides for a sub-optimal sound in comparison to an external amp capable of optimally powering a given headphone. Color and distortion are not the only factors here (albeit tradeoffs that have to be acknowledged). A good power supply provided in such amps directly contributes to the improvement in sound quality you reference here. If one can believe that a DC4 can improve the Dave, it should be very easy to comprehend how an external amp can do the same. 

But again this conversation just keeps going in circles. The last thing I'll say is that nearly all of the people that have actually experimented with amps + the Dave with very hard to drive headphones prefer an external amp. That isn't because people just prefer color or distortion--that doesn't even reasonably make sense. Has far more to do with effective amplification, which extends far beyond volume level. Again, everyone please just experiment and decide with your own ears.


----------



## stemiki

In my opinion, if the electrical system of the house is in order, it is not necessary to change the power supplies to the electronics. For example, in my house I have a new and completely isolated electrical system: the kitchen is independent, just as all the lighting in the house is independent. 
And each light switch is served by low voltage relays that are heard in action in the electrical panel. And the music system has two independent lines, where MScaler and DAVE are separated from each other, to avoid ground planes. This is the electrical panel, it goes from floor to ceiling. And I think it is also important to follow the directions in the DAVE manual, such as not having cell phones, wifi or large transformers nearby.


----------



## MvRBE10

Got a seperate circuit braker just for the audio tapted before the earth leak switch (these suck) and i use one of my three phase only for audio. The other two are for my house. Audio above all. But dont use the earth breaker on your audio not up to code but who cares. Also the phase is all to the right side and does not cross any other lead. Got a solar system on other phase and tou dont want that one near the audio. Thank god we listen most of the time at night so no nois from that system.


----------



## MvRBE10

And guys take a good look at this 30,- dollar ali express supply thats in the dave. Look up the number and you can order it. So if you buy a 1000 they will be 15,- dollar. Next is one lps -15V farad… nothing to explain i hope.

Thats in our dave😂😞


----------



## x RELIC x

Ciggavelli said:


> False. I'm hearing it with my own ears, and I have the WA33 EE JPS to compare it to 🤷‍♂️
> 
> Honestly, I am very happy with this new found power in my DAVE brought about by the DC4, and if nobody else tries it, that will be fine with me.  I'm just super excited to have another solid state to use when I want a different flavor from my WA33


You aren’t changing the total power output of the DAVE, that’s not possible unless you replace the analogue output stage of the DAVE. You may be hearing a cleaner background, or some other change with the DC4 (I can’t say as I haven’t heard it), but you are not changing the power output of the DAVE. Just keeping it technically correct.

I’m glad you are enjoying the setup though


----------



## jlbrach

x RELIC x said:


> Adding a power supply to the DAVE will not increase the power output of the DAVE. I wish people will realize that more bass is not exclusively the domain of more power. It’s correlation, not causation. Reminds me of a certain situation with a horse parasite treatment and a certain pandemic virus, type of argument…


except said horse parasite treatment has been used on humans worldwide for decades...now back to the chord dave


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## jlbrach (Jan 6, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> Yeah, I muddied up the waters with the DC4 talk.   But, it is relevant with talk of new power supplies and the DAVE power output.  If one owns a DAVE and wants to drive the Susvaras, they need to decide upon a DC4 or an external amp.  I'm just saying in that choice, it would be a tough to pick between a WA33 SE or the DC4


perhaps true but irrelevant to the loony discussion that has dominated this board for days with the suggestion made that the dave on its own can drive the susvara well..99% of those owning both dave and susvara said an external amp was required...all you did was suggest that the power supply you speak of substitutes for the amp


----------



## x RELIC x (Jan 6, 2022)

jlbrach said:


> except said horse parasite treatment has been used on humans worldwide for decades...now back to the chord dave


For parasites and at a specific dose, lol. An example of misunderstanding the application. Antibiotics are also prescribed far too often for viruses as well, but they will have no effect on a virus, go figure!

The key to my post was “It’s correlation, not causation", which was relevant to the DAVE discussion… But hey, it seems everyone wants to debate something and come to their own conclusions


----------



## adrianm

jlbrach said:


> perhaps true but irrelevant to the loony discussion that has dominated this board for days with the suggestion made that the dave on its own can drive the susvara well..99% of those owning both dave and susvara said an external amp was required...all you did was suggest that the power supply you speak of substitutes for the amp


  Yes, but can one of those 99% give a scientific basis as to why already?   What's missing? and what did the lpsu make better besides maybe the quality of the power. I get it, the main theme is " the more you spend the better it sounds ", but some of us are looking for something beyond that, not just taking those opinions for granted. As I said earlier, even Dan Clark disagrees with this and runs the Stealth out of a Mojo saying the sound perfectly fine and don't need more power.


----------



## MvRBE10

Well its working again the listening starts, the monitor board is still the same that will be changed in 1,5week with extention and pieces to keep the dc wires ataached to the board. No floating wires. Here some impressions of the new glands, cnc aluminium intake piece and the longer silver wires.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...the "Triple By-pass" port is very clean. Nice!


----------



## MvRBE10

MarkusBarkus said:


> ...the "Triple By-pass" port is very clean. Nice!


Thanks took a few ****ups before it was to my please… wanted it smooth and original look and feel.


----------



## DJJEZ

MvRBE10 said:


> Well its working again the listening starts, the monitor board is still the same that will be changed in 1,5week with extention and pieces to keep the dc wires ataached to the board. No floating wires. Here some impressions of the new glands, cnc aluminium intake piece and the longer silver wires.


Very cool


----------



## number1sixerfan

DJJEZ said:


> Very cool



+1. Cool reading through the journey and impressions, looks like good work @MvRBE10. Nice.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

MvRBE10 said:


> Well its working again the listening starts, the monitor board is still the same that will be changed in 1,5week with extention and pieces to keep the dc wires ataached to the board. No floating wires. Here some impressions of the new glands, cnc aluminium intake piece and the longer silver wires.


Looks great!

I've always said that Farads are the best power supplies you can buy. The new project raises the bar even higher.


----------



## jlbrach

adrianm said:


> Yes, but can one of those 99% give a scientific basis as to why already?   What's missing? and what did the lpsu make better besides maybe the quality of the power. I get it, the main theme is " the more you spend the better it sounds ", but some of us are looking for something beyond that, not just taking those opinions for granted. As I said earlier, even Dan Clark disagrees with this and runs the Stealth out of a Mojo saying the sound perfectly fine and don't need more power.


I have listened to the stealth out of a hugo 2 and it is indeed fine....it is much better with more powerful amps....IMHO


----------



## MvRBE10

Yes and he told me today that he is working a long time on a new high end lps that raises every bar to the next level. He told me that he already did some comparison with a dc4 with another customer of him and that it blew it away to the next level. Will be done later this year and in a higher price range but for the full monties the summum with alot of new technology in it. Love this hobby and these people that put so much effort in it to make this more enjoyable.


----------



## jlbrach

adrianm said:


> Yes, but can one of those 99% give a scientific basis as to why already?   What's missing? and what did the lpsu make better besides maybe the quality of the power. I get it, the main theme is " the more you spend the better it sounds ", but some of us are looking for something beyond that, not just taking those opinions for granted. As I said earlier, even Dan Clark disagrees with this and runs the Stealth out of a Mojo saying the sound perfectly fine and don't need more power.


FWIIW I own the formula s/powerman combo....when I first bought the formula s I thought it was excellent but when I added the powerman everything improved and the blacker background gave the appearance of more power to my listening...I accept that the power source can make a big difference...I am not an engineer so I cant give you a proper explanation but again the initial debate was about the dave as is.....


----------



## MvRBE10

adrianm said:


> Yes, but can one of those 99% give a scientific basis as to why already?   What's missing? and what did the lpsu make better besides maybe the quality of the power. I get it, the main theme is " the more you spend the better it sounds ", but some of us are looking for something beyond that, not just taking those opinions for granted. As I said earlier, even Dan Clark disagrees with this and runs the Stealth out of a Mojo saying the sound perfectly fine and don't need more power.


I was thinking what you said the fact that if you look at the stock power supply of the dave i can imagine when that 30,- switched power supply has to deliver at max it can drop or get instable at piek loads this will come back into you music as “cannot handle” as rob watts mentioned its not the current that is the problem but the voltage drop on the mosfets or whatever is in the output stage of the headphone amp. When a heavy/steady lps is added i can recon that this voltage drop will less ocur so in the high power regions the headphone will feel much firmer and cope better(follow the current needed and deliver the voltage to streer the headphone). This is beside the noise  level issue what will improve all the other things mentioned before. Hope my crappy english is good enough to explain my thoughts about this.


----------



## 801evan

MvRBE10 said:


> I was thinking what you said the fact that if you look at the stock power supply of the dave i can imagine when that 30,- switched power supply has to deliver at max it can drop or get instable at piek loads this will come back into you music as “cannot handle” as rob watts mentioned its not the current that is the problem but the voltage drop on the mosfets or whatever is in the output stage of the headphone amp. When a heavy/steady lps is added i can recon that this voltage drop will less ocur so in the high power regions the headphone will feel much firmer and cope better(follow the current needed and deliver the voltage to streer the headphone). This is beside the noise  level issue what will improve all the other things mentioned before. Hope my crappy english is good enough to explain my thoughts about this.


As mentioned by me and @Ciggavelli , I listen at -6dB to -4dB and him at -7dB and that's enough power for the Susvara. If you listen at +4dB and above, and like distortion, go for an external amp.


----------



## jlbrach

not if you use the dave as is ...


----------



## Ciggavelli

jlbrach said:


> not if you use the dave as is ...


It’s an enthusiast summit-fi forum though. It’s not odd to mod equipment. Also, the initial talk of a DAVE and Susvaras has shifted to power supplies.  I think that’s fair game 🤷‍♂️


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jan 6, 2022)

So, I spent another afternoon and evening listening to my TCs straight out of my DC4’d mDAVE. Let’s put aside why it’s working for a moment and just discuss the sound. After further experimenting with the Dave driving my TCs, I’ve noticed some new things. 1) The DAVE/TCs combo is more unforgiving with poorly recorded material compared to my WA33. 2) After several hours, the sound became a little fatiguing. 3). The TC mids are worse out of the DC4’d DAVE. 4) The TCs have higher resolution out of the DAVE, which some would probably like. 5) The DAVE is somewhat clinical compared to my WA33, where strict accuracy seems to be the goal (it is a solid state though). 6) I like the “distortion” my WA33 and tubes bring, though I know some might prefer the more analytical and clinical DAVE.

So, there are some important differences between going out of the DAVE vs using a high-end tube amp. I’m really glad I have both. I’m moving back to the WA33 tomorrow and I should have more notes and comparisons.

Basically, if you have to choose between a DC4’d DAVE or getting an external tube amp for your stock DAVE, I think it will depend on if you value utmost accuracy or if you like tube “distortion.”  Both drive the TCs and Susvaras well. So, it’s probably just personal preference


----------



## number1sixerfan

Ciggavelli said:


> So, I spent another afternoon and evening listening to my TCs straight out of my DC4’d mDAVE. Let’s put aside why it’s working for a moment and just discuss the sound. After further experimenting with the Dave driving my TCs, I’ve noticed some new things. 1) The DAVE/TCs combo is more unforgiving with poorly recorded material compared to my WA33. 2) After several hours, the sound became a little fatiguing. 3). The TC mids are worse out of the DC4’d DAVE. 4) The TCs have higher resolution out of the DAVE, which some would probably like. 5) The DAVE is somewhat clinical compared to my WA33, where strict accuracy seems to be the goal (it is a solid state though). 6) I like the “distortion” my WA33 and tubes bring, though I know some might prefer the more analytical and clinical DAVE.
> 
> So, there are some important differences between going out of the DAVE vs using a high-end tube amp. I’m really glad I have both. I’m moving back to the WA33 tomorrow and I should have more notes and comparisons.
> 
> Basically, if you have to choose between a DC4’d DAVE or getting an external tube amp for your stock DAVE, I think it will depend on if you value utmost accuracy or if you like tube “distortion.”  Both drive the TCs and Susvaras well. So, it’s probably just personal preference



Good impressions and again, the DC4 is sounding more and more impressive. 

But to be clear, the DC4 completely turns this into a different conversation. It is very similar to having an external amp vs. comparisons out of the Dave alone. I think that's what jlbrach is getting at given the past 5+ pages of debate. Similar to external amps, there are clear reasons they improve the quality of sound due to more optimal driving of headphones (not to be confused with coloration or distortion). 

All in all, this, plus everything over the past 5+ pages should be enough to end this bizarre debate. There's literally evidence from someone building a DIY improved power supply + impressions/reasoning to improvements, as well as a ton of evidence based anecdotal post from others that have actually experimented (let alone all of the countless threads in summit-fi with everyone saying the same thing). If people that haven't even experimented want to continue to refute and drive a narrative, at this point idc, let them.


----------



## 801evan (Jan 6, 2022)

I already attested the susvara + Dave if used with usb in and an ok (supposedly low jitter) source and straight to wall will not sound good.

But to give it a good transport, spdif in, and filtered mains, leaving the Dave unmodded, warranty intact, it can superbly drive the Susvara. Point being, anyone criticizing the Dave + susvara combo is simply criticizing their transport, chain, cables and mains quality.  Dave is ace.  And the Susvara doesn't need a lot of power. Skip the speaker amp.


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> So, I spent another afternoon and evening listening to my TCs straight out of my DC4’d mDAVE. Let’s put aside why it’s working for a moment and just discuss the sound. After further experimenting with the Dave driving my TCs, I’ve noticed some new things. 1) The DAVE/TCs combo is more unforgiving with poorly recorded material compared to my WA33. 2) After several hours, the sound became a little fatiguing. 3). The TC mids are worse out of the DC4’d DAVE. 4) The TCs have higher resolution out of the DAVE, which some would probably like. 5) The DAVE is somewhat clinical compared to my WA33, where strict accuracy seems to be the goal (it is a solid state though). 6) I like the “distortion” my WA33 and tubes bring, though I know some might prefer the more analytical and clinical DAVE.
> 
> So, there are some important differences between going out of the DAVE vs using a high-end tube amp. I’m really glad I have both. I’m moving back to the WA33 tomorrow and I should have more notes and comparisons.
> 
> Basically, if you have to choose between a DC4’d DAVE or getting an external tube amp for your stock DAVE, I think it will depend on if you value utmost accuracy or if you like tube “distortion.”  Both drive the TCs and Susvaras well. So, it’s probably just personal preference


U need to jump on the src dx train and do sorbothanes on it. Like I said, the USB in with my 40x lt3045 chain was still underwhelming. The harmonics that's in the track is muted. That's why tubes will sound good because it will emulate (poorly) the harmonics that's embedded in the track.


----------



## Ciggavelli

801evan said:


> U need to jump on the src dx train and do sorbothanes on it. Like I said, the USB in with my 40x lt3045 chain was still underwhelming. The harmonics that's in the track is muted. That's why tubes will sound good because it will emulate (poorly) the harmonics that's embedded in the track.


I am intrigued. Plus @edwardsean said he liked them too, and he uses a DC4 as well I think. I need to look into the src dx more tomorrow.


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> I am intrigued. Plus @edwardsean said he liked them too, and he uses a DC4 as well I think. I need to look into the src dx more tomorrow.


Also, have you covered all open ports in the rear of the Dave and other devices? It'll help peer though the music as it reduces the noise. Also when doing HP listening out of the Dave, that will require unplugging the line out connections to cover the ports for that added edge in performance.


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> I am intrigued. Plus @edwardsean said he liked them too, and he uses a DC4 as well I think. I need to look into the src dx more tomorrow.


Might as well jump in with the Topping d10s as well. I think it's lower distortion but has a slight cut in the mids. It'll take at least full 5 days to  break in both.


----------



## Ciggavelli

801evan said:


> Might as well jump in with the Topping d10s as well. I think it's lower distortion but has a slight cut in the mids. It'll take at least full 5 days to  break in both.


That sounds crazy, though I’ve never tried Topping’s products


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> That sounds crazy, though I’ve never tried Topping’s products


It's annoying why it was still giving that signature Topping sound despite being only a ddc. Lol.


----------



## Peti

I'm pretty sure that folks at Chord do monitor this thread and are aware of these new esoteric power supplies and that they will do some testing with them. And, if they are indeed worthy, they will be incorporated into new designs, I reckon.


----------



## 801evan (Jan 6, 2022)

Peti said:


> I'm pretty sure that folks at Chord do monitor this thread and are aware of these new esoteric power supplies and that they will do some testing with them. And, if they are indeed worthy, they will be incorporated into new designs, I reckon.


Fairly obvious it's a form factor issue and a need to fit an aesthetic in mind. The real bragging rights goes to anyone who can make a psu upgrade that can fit inside the Chord chassis.


----------



## 801evan (Jan 7, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> I am intrigued. Plus @edwardsean said he liked them too, and he uses a DC4 as well I think. I need to look into the src dx more tomorrow.


Here's the OTHER catch I'm experiencing. Loud masters that uses limiters can get fatiguing. This is the other issue in my current end game journey that's been bugging me. Mixes that uses limiters has too much sonics that plateaus that it's almost like a flat tone bombarding the ear and it's more evident on TOTL smooth, linear, transparent setups. With that, maybe a tube amp can give more variability and assist it to be more palatable. But this has nothing to do with needing more power on a Susvara for example and may still not be an apparent issue when doing USB in


----------



## JTbbb

Ciggavelli said:


> So, I spent another afternoon and evening listening to my TCs straight out of my DC4’d mDAVE. Let’s put aside why it’s working for a moment and just discuss the sound. After further experimenting with the Dave driving my TCs, I’ve noticed some new things. 1) The DAVE/TCs combo is more unforgiving with poorly recorded material compared to my WA33. 2) After several hours, the sound became a little fatiguing. 3). The TC mids are worse out of the DC4’d DAVE. 4) The TCs have higher resolution out of the DAVE, which some would probably like. 5) The DAVE is somewhat clinical compared to my WA33, where strict accuracy seems to be the goal (it is a solid state though). 6) I like the “distortion” my WA33 and tubes bring, though I know some might prefer the more analytical and clinical DAVE.
> 
> So, there are some important differences between going out of the DAVE vs using a high-end tube amp. I’m really glad I have both. I’m moving back to the WA33 tomorrow and I should have more notes and comparisons.
> 
> Basically, if you have to choose between a DC4’d DAVE or getting an external tube amp for your stock DAVE, I think it will depend on if you value utmost accuracy or if you like tube “distortion.”  Both drive the TCs and Susvaras well. So, it’s probably just personal preference


My SQ findings EXACTLY, using a non DC’4d mDave / Euforia AE, with HD800S & Utopia’s.


----------



## Clive101

Blimey we have moved on from RF........ now onto power supplies and amplifiers 

Confession, I have both so will try my headphones on both systems. My guess both will be good


----------



## MvRBE10

Just recieved an email from mattijs from farad and this is his official outcome and pricings etc hope you guys appreciate it:

Thanks for your interest! We have made a special power supply upgrade for the Chord Dave based on our Farad Super3 power supplies. These are available in +5V, +15V and for the -15V the Dave also uses we specially developed the first ever negative regulated supercap supply making use of the Super3 technology.


The advantage of three single supplies is that it gives much better sound quality against a one box solution, because the fuse and power cables are splitted and all supplies are fully separated, so no interactions on each other. We found this to be quite important for best sound. Also it gives more flexibility towards future upgrades (for example with the upcoming Farad Super10 supply). And last sound for digital and analog can be tuned with the individual power cables and fuses, so this gives more possibilities for tuning the final sound even better.


We have designed a special power monitoring PCB which fits exactly in the spot where the original Dave SMPS supply is now. This monitor takes care of the Chord and only will get powered up when all three voltages are present and within parameters. This will protect the Dave during start-up and from any anomalies with the incoming power when operating. Connected to this monitor there are three 100cm Farad Level 2 silver wires for the three power supply units, and at the other side a connector with shielded cables and gold plated contacts which fits the Dave power connector inside.



We provide a special backplate which fits exactly in the slot where the AC inlet is originally. You only need to unscrew the top plate, remove the original AC inlet and SMPS power supply en slide in the assembly we provide. Close the top plate again and you are ready to play. No soldering.


Prices for this setup are:


Cable assembly with 100cm Farad Level 2 silver cables, custom backplate and the power monitor: 1000 euro
3x (+5V, +15V, -15V) Farad Super3 basic version: 1516 euro
3x (+5V, +15V, -15V) Farad Super3 full upgraded (SR Purple fuses, Furutech Rhodium AC inlet) versions: 2158 euro

The Super3 supplies are available in AC voltage ranges 100Vac, 110-120Vac, 220-230Vac factory set. Prices are ex VAT, FedEx courier shipping worldwide is free with all orders in the Farad web shop.



If you want to be kept updated, please follow us on Facebook or Instagram. We also can put you on a mailing list and let you know as soon as we have more to tell about it. We expect to be able to ship the upgrade sets in February.

--

Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Cordialement,

Mattijs de Vries, Farad power supplies


www.Faradpowersupplies.com

Utrechtsestraatweg 198

3911TX Rhenen (UT)

The Netherlands



Phone. +31(0)6-43034092


----------



## 801evan

MvRBE10 said:


> Just recieved an email from mattijs from farad and this is his official outcome and pricings etc hope you guys appreciate it:
> 
> Thanks for your interest! We have made a special power supply upgrade for the Chord Dave based on our Farad Super3 power supplies. These are available in +5V, +15V and for the -15V the Dave also uses we specially developed the first ever negative regulated supercap supply making use of the Super3 technology.
> 
> ...


You guys can consider this for Merason Frerot too.  Just different voltages and compatible jack. Done.


----------



## Clive101 (Jan 7, 2022)

Just Chilled Out.......listening to DaveScaler


----------



## MarkusBarkus

MvRBE10 said:


> (Mattijs): We have made a special power supply upgrade for the Chord Dave based on our Farad Super3 power supplies.


...this is an excellent example of how products evolve and new opportunities grow for businesses and consumers. 

I have previously posted comments that gently push-back against folks that think it is absurd or inappropriate to add external power supplies to the Dave. 

My perspective was/is that it's a choice. An option. You can purchase and enjoy your Dave as is. It's terrific.

But, it is possible to extend the original use-case to modify the product. 

The modification path is interesting to some users both due to sonic changes, but also because we can explore and learn about the Dave and how it may be "extended."  

This is how we learn. And this is how Chord learns too. How people use their products. How people mis-use their products. What consumers really want. What may be possible avenues for future research and market opportunity.

Dave is a product, not a holy relic. It represents a lot of hard work in R&D and design. Many decisions were made in bringing it to market. 

It doesn't have to be static...a picture in a museum. It can evolve...it has evolved. You don't have to like it (or participate), but you can't stop it. Things evolve. 

Bravo Mattijs. Bravo Sean Jacobs. Bravo Rob Watts. And chapeau to all that want to learn and to push the envelope a bit.


----------



## alxw0w

Just wanted to post a short info to anyone that is looking for good piece to check crossfeed of Dave on headphones.




The depth with crossfeed is really nice. Decay goes from you head to front of you. 
I'm not using crossfed that much but this album is just freaking amazing with crossfeed. 
I love this particular piece - the gnome.
Cheers


----------



## adrianm (Jan 7, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> Just wanted to post a short info to anyone that is looking for good piece to check crossfeed of Dave on headphones.
> 
> 
> The depth with crossfeed is really nice. Decay goes from you head to front of you.
> ...


I've turned CF on after about 3 months of testing and never turned it back off since


----------



## auricgoldfinger

If anyone is looking for a DC3 for their DAVE, please PM me.  I know of one looking for a new home.


----------



## Triode User (Jan 7, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> Just wanted to post a short info to anyone that is looking for good piece to check crossfeed of Dave on headphones.
> 
> 
> The depth with crossfeed is really nice. Decay goes from you head to front of you.
> ...


Yes an amazing track and this version is one of RW’s test tracks.

It is also amazing on a speaker system capable of reproducing the full range of frequencies!! (PS, it needs a ‘bit of wellie’ to get the speakers going!)


----------



## Triode User

..


----------



## Christer

alxw0w said:


> Just wanted to post a short info to anyone that is looking for good piece to check crossfeed of Dave on headphones.
> 
> 
> The depth with crossfeed is really nice. Decay goes from you head to front of you.
> ...


Nice with a music example I can relate to for a change.
This is one of MANY classic Karajan/BPO mid 60s  recordings on DGG ,and whenever I go to my local thrift shops I hope to find a cd of it.So far no luck.
But I still have the original  LP.
I am not sure if they ever did a digital  remake of Mussorgksy´s Masterpiece?  But they did do Debussy ´s La Mer and much as I like those old analogue classics from the 60s musically, I have to say that via Qutest and Mscaler the digital remake has better SQ and better dynamic range than the analogue oldies.
Another  HvK/BPO musical gem from that 60s  period that I did find  on cd recently for 1 Euro is their recording of Mozart´s Horn Concertos with the  then BPO leader Gerd Seiffert playing those masterpieces very well in a seductively beautiful rich spacious and hall ambient analogue recording that sounds very nice on cd via the same chain. 
PS. If you like Mussorgsky´s music also  try the orginal Mussorgsky version of Night on the Bald Mountain and the Opera Boris Godunov.
My fav recording of Boris is the Sony Abbado/BPO three cds set.
That is the one I am going to play  tonight before going to sleep. But I´ll have to give the Karajan LP a spin in the morning.
It is indeed a classic recording.
Cheers CC


----------



## alxw0w

Triode User said:


> Yes an amazing track and this version is one of RW’s test tracks.
> 
> It is also amazing on a speaker system capable of reproducing the full range of frequencies!! (PS, it needs a ‘bit of wellie’ to get the speakers going!)



Yes this organ version is also very good.


----------



## alxw0w

Christer said:


> Nice with a music example I can relate to for a change.
> This is one of MANY classic Karajan/BPO mid 60s  recordings on DGG ,and whenever I go to my local thrift shops I hope to find a cd of it.So far no luck.
> But I still have the original  LP.
> I am not sure if they ever did a digital  remake of Mussorgksy´s Masterpiece?  But they did do Debussy ´s La Mer and much as I like those old analogue classics from the 60s musically, I have to say that via Qutest and Mscaler the digital remake has better SQ and better dynamic range than the analogue oldies.
> ...


Ah yes LP, actually i know this album from LP too 

Some time ago I was at my local flea market and found this gem for literally 2 euro !


----------



## alxw0w

Christer said:


> PS. If you like Mussorgsky´s music also try the orginal Mussorgsky version of Night on the Bald Mountain and the Opera Boris Godunov.


Yes I will, thanks.


----------



## Ciggavelli

So, going back to the WA33 with my TC, from yesterday's DC4'd mDAVE session, and the impressions are as expected (to me at least).  More bass bloom, smoother sound, fuller mids, larger soundstage, more forgiving of poorly recorded tracks.  Both are good, but I like the WA33 better.  I just like that "distortion," fuller mids and increased soundstage more.  I guess it's not as "accurate" as the DAVE, but I'm fine with that.  I like the WA33 tube "coloring."


----------



## MvRBE10

Music is always in the eyes of the beholder and personal but what you describe is i think spot on. But what i ask my self does the wa33 has the same improvement gain as the dave has relatively due to the dc4 lps. Or is the stock lps sound not in your memory any more. Also for me hard to go back. Probably should go full stock again to get sound memory back.


----------



## saudio7

This is also very good recording:


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jan 7, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> Music is always in the eyes of the beholder and personal but what you describe is i think spot on. But what i ask my self does the wa33 has the same improvement gain as the dave has relatively due to the dc4 lps. Or is the stock lps sound not in your memory any more. Also for me hard to go back. Probably should go full stock again to get sound memory back.


It's hard to say if the standard WA33 (which is priced similarly as the DC4) is better than the DC4 or vise versa, as I don't have that edition anymore (I have the Elite now). 

Going from a TT2 to the WA33 was a big jump is sound performance.  Then I got the standard DAVE, and it was a nice improvement.  Following that, I got the WA33 Elite JPS version, and it was another big sound increase.  Then I got the DC4s for my DAVE and M-scaler, so I never had the DC4 and the standard Edition at the same time. 

I think the WA33 Elite JPS is probably a bigger jump than adding a DC4 to your DAVE, but the WA33 Elite JPS is also double the cost of the DC4.


----------



## jlbrach (Jan 7, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> It’s an enthusiast summit-fi forum though. It’s not odd to mod equipment. Also, the initial talk of a DAVE and Susvaras has shifted to power supplies.  I think that’s fair game 🤷‍♂️


I think the discussion of mod's is certainly fine and I agree that lots of people are into mods BUT the discussion from my understanding started off as to whether one who owns a dave can expect to be able to drive the susvara satisfactorily....I think we all agree that the answer is no...now as to whether or not a mod with power supply etc can approach adding a TOTL amp is interesting but not really the point IMHO...yes, if you spend an additional 8k or whatever for an amp or power supply you can enhance the dave in terms of driving the susvara...doesnt change the original discussion..my only concern is misleading somebody who spends a lot of money on a dave and susvara


----------



## 801evan (Jan 7, 2022)

Lol. What a conclusion. @Ciggavelli  hasn't even gotten a topping d10s or src dx. And you conveniently dismissed my chain of an unmodded Dave being able to drive the Susvara.

What's more realistic?
Making the conclusion that the Dave can't drive the Susvara when you don't give it a good source and good mains?

Or giving it a good source and good filtered mains?

The latter actually shows how transparent the Dave is. How realistic is it to expect a 7 yr old USB board keep up with what's being available today? Hence the spdif route.  Even compared to the Holo spring 3/May + ahb2 + susvara reviewer impressions on YT, I don't get the sibilance on the tracks that the reviewer said is there. I don't get phase issues on the track that the reviewer claims is there giving this z axis depth which doesn't exist. More importantly and tell tale, I don't get the hyper localization hearing that the Holo Dac seems to provide. Because that means their rig still lacks reproducing the harmonics of the instruments. If you like that sound, go ahead but that's not the more transparent playback. It should be blended.  I don't get this 'tangible aspect' of the music because those are hard congested micro details coming in and out as the music plays. They claim the Holo Dac is so transparent where you can hear the vocal move left or right from the mic. Sorry that's AC main noise because the vocalist are doing close micing on a MONO mic. I've been there and got hyped with that sound but as I upgraded my chain, all that are just perceptual anomalies of the chain.


----------



## Ciggavelli

801evan said:


> Lol. What a conclusion. @Ciggavelli  hasn't even gotten a topping d10s or src dx. And you conveniently dismissed my chain of an unmodded Dave being able to drive the Susvara.
> 
> What's more realistic?
> Making the conclusion that the Dave can't drive the Susvara when you don't give it a good source and good mains?
> ...


What bnc cables are you using with the SRC-DX?  I'm running SOtM BNCs from my M-scaler to DAVE, and I really like them.  They make good digital cables.  I also use their Ethernet cable.  I didn't get their USB cable, because I thought it might be too much filtering.


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> What bnc cables are you using with the SRC-DX?  I'm running SOtM BNCs from my M-scaler to DAVE, and I really like them.  They make good digital cables.  I also use their Ethernet cable.  I didn't get their USB cable, because I thought it might be too much filtering.


I made my own silver bnc digital cables. Doesn't have the upper haze compared the best digital coax I've tried. Better off with toslink honestly but src dx doesn't give that option 🤣

You may want to skip the USB in of the mscaler too when getting to this level. 👀👀


----------



## genefruit

801evan said:


> You may want to skip the USB in of the mscaler too when getting to this level. 👀👀


Yeah, I was skeptical until I tried it and now I can't see going back to the USB input of my HMS


----------



## MvRBE10

I also tried several usb cables between my aurender and hms but each time the optical wins by length and mostly the highs sounds much less fatiqing on optical. It has a clearer signature.


----------



## 801evan

MvRBE10 said:


> I also tried several usb cables between my aurender and hms but each time the optical wins by length and mostly the highs sounds much less fatiqing on optical. It has a clearer signature.


Correct. It can afford more highs but less congested and fatiguing. A more stable presentation and better imaging that's more natural without hyper sharpness on the outline.


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> More bass bloom, smoother sound, fuller mids


Honestly only the DCA Stealth can produce proper midbass quantity without assist. Audeze LCD4 can but gets overpowered by the lower bass so there's bit of an imbalance/fighting there. So to maintain the transparency of the Dave via HP out and do away with the additive color of an external amp to compensate for the lack of mid bass, which is the natural response of most other HPs, the Stealth is the path to transparency and juicy midbass quantity.


----------



## Ciggavelli

801evan said:


> Honestly only the DCA Stealth can produce proper midbass quantity without assist. Audeze LCD4 can but gets overpowered by the lower bass so there's bit of an imbalance/fighting there. So to maintain the transparency of the Dave via HP out and do away with the additive color of an external amp to compensate for the lack of mid bass, which is the natural response of most other HPs, the Stealth is the path to transparency and juicy midbass quantity.


I'm curious, what genres of music do you listen to?  I listen to mostly metal and hip-hop, but I do throw in some indie/alternative from time to time


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> I'm curious, what genres of music do you listen to?  I listen to mostly metal and hip-hop, but I do throw in some indie/alternative from time to time


Preference is dreampop, shoegaze, scandi indiepop, bossanova if I'm not benching. My benchmarking reference tracks are hideous and I won't mention em, but it is what I've dominantly been listening more vs my preference until recently, finally.  Dreampop, shoegaze should have healthy mid bass quantity like Slowdive, Beach House. But the most surprising thing is that lo-fi is actually the new hi-fi for me. What felt like lo-fi recordings for over a decade started sounding more hi-fi than the usual audiophile picks in a hifi show. Bands like Trembling Blue Star, Camera Obscura started to sound like audiophile level. Turns out these albums has so much DR and didn't exploit loudness. So their music, for their own aesthetics, has the poor noise floor working for them for that chill lazy rain music vibe. But for uber hi-fi chains, that noise floor is so low it brought out all the detail goodness that even pre-80s recording will be challenged.


----------



## genefruit

801evan said:


> Preference is dreampop, shoegaze, scandi indiepop, bossanova if I'm not benching. My benchmarking reference tracks are hideous and I won't mention em, but it is what I've dominantly been listening more vs my preference until recently, finally.  Dreampop, shoegaze should have healthy mid bass quantity like Slowdive, Beach House. But the most surprising thing is that lo-fi is actually the new hi-fi for me. What felt like lo-fi recordings for over a decade started sounding more hi-fi than the usual audiophile picks in a hifi show. Bands like Trembling Blue Star, Camera Obscura started to sound like audiophile level. Turns out these albums has so much DR and didn't exploit loudness. So their music, for their own aesthetics, has the poor noise floor working for them for that chill lazy rain music vibe. But for uber hi-fi chains, that noise floor is so low it brought out all the detail goodness that even pre-80s recording will be challenged.


This Mortal Coil albums are recorded pretty well.


----------



## Ciggavelli

801evan said:


> Preference is dreampop, shoegaze, scandi indiepop, bossanova if I'm not benching. My benchmarking reference tracks are hideous and I won't mention em, but it is what I've dominantly been listening more vs my preference until recently, finally.  Dreampop, shoegaze should have healthy mid bass quantity like Slowdive, Beach House. But the most surprising thing is that lo-fi is actually the new hi-fi for me. What felt like lo-fi recordings for over a decade started sounding more hi-fi than the usual audiophile picks in a hifi show. Bands like Trembling Blue Star, Camera Obscura started to sound like audiophile level. Turns out these albums has so much DR and didn't exploit loudness. So their music, for their own aesthetics, has the poor noise floor working for them for that chill lazy rain music vibe. But for uber hi-fi chains, that noise floor is so low it brought out all the detail goodness that even pre-80s recording will be challenged.


I listen to a lot of lo-fi metal (some bands intentionally make their albums lo-fi, like a lot of underground black metal). The Susvaras are great with lo-fi. It’s one of the reasons I like those headphones so much


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> I listen to a lot of lo-fi metal. The Susvaras are great with lo-fi. It’s one of the reasons I like those headphones so much


Correct.  Because of the smooth response of the susvara and with a smooth response chain, it'll reveal the lo-fi metal for what it is. This is kinda what I'm getting at.

ALSO, I dunno why, but MQA also will reveal more correct mid bass than any other format. Which is the weirdest thing because that frequency range is not hard to playback I imagine. But I've been starting to think it is one of the last things to come out correctly in the path to end game without assist from colored external amps. And I think this is due to lower distortion of MQA that lowers noise floor even more on a perceptual level. Because HQplayer and PGGB can affect mid-bass, more for the worse than for the better on my end. Especially since they both seem to flatten the soundstage too, hence giving the extra detail that these YT reviewers seems to love but it's just a cut in the mid bass. 

Metal and hip-hop MQA can reveal good midbass well too. Hip-hop library has a fair amount of low DR due to the intention of it being played in the club though so one must find the album with high DR.


----------



## Ciggavelli

801evan said:


> Correct.  Because of the smooth response of the susvara and with a smooth response chain, it'll reveal the lo-fi metal for what it is. This is kinda what I'm getting at.
> 
> ALSO, I dunno why, but MQA also will reveal more correct mid bass than any other format. Which is the weirdest thing because that frequency range is not hard to playback I imagine. But I've been starting to think it is one of the last things to come out correctly in the path to end game without assist from colored external amps. And I think this is due to lower distortion of MQA that lowers noise floor even more on a perceptual level. Because HQplayer and PGGB can affect mid-bass, more for the worse than for the better on my end. Especially since they both seem to flatten the soundstage too, hence giving the extra detail that these YT reviewers seems to love but it's just a cut in the mid bass.
> 
> Metal and hip-hop MQA can reveal good midbass well too. Hip-hop library has a fair amount of low DR due to the intention of it being played in the club though so one must find the album with high DR.


I’m still on the fence about MQA. A lot of hip hop that is only on Tidal is MQA. I haven’t figured out how to make my K50 streamer unfold it and not Roon (though, honestly, I love Roon, so I’m hesitant. I do use a SqueezeLite player with the Roon server and UI, that I think sounds better than a Roon player with the Roon server)

Currently, having Roon unfold it, I think a non-MQA high-res version sounds better. MQA sounds “digital” to me, but I haven’t tried unfolding with my server apps.


----------



## 801evan

jlbrach said:


> I have listened to the stealth out of a hugo 2 and it is indeed fine....it is much better with more powerful amps....IMHO


I got a better response in the Stealth with a modded Phonitor One which has much less power than the Hugo 2, proving it's not a power quantity thing, but a power quality thing.


----------



## 801evan (Jan 8, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> I’m still on the fence about MQA. A lot of hip hop that is only on Tidal is MQA. I haven’t figured out how to make my K50 streamer unfold it and not Roon (though, honestly, I love Roon, so I’m hesitant. I do use a SqueezeLite player with the Roon server and UI, that I think sounds better than a Roon player with the Roon server)
> 
> Currently, having Roon unfold it, I think a non-MQA high-res version sounds better. MQA sounds “digital” to me, but I haven’t tried unfolding with my server apps.


Yea. Roon doesn't do mqa unfold too well ever since.

I was initially a very loud anti-MQA person and I liked HQplayer for two years. Didn't like Roon. But as my system improved, I started to hear how MQA is more superior and it kept on keeping up with my upgrade while HQplayer started lagging behind. Roon is still off for me. My personal explanation for this is distortion likes distortion. But in Roon's case, it's engine is just too opaque for me that I can even tell from a laptop to AQ carbon to Hugo 2 setup, only to be verified later on with a dedicated NUC on a HDPLex + conditioner.


----------



## Ciggavelli

801evan said:


> Yea. Roon doesn't do mqa unfold too well ever since.
> 
> I was initially a very loud anti-MQA person and I liked HQplayer for two years. Didn't like Roon. But as my system improved, I started to hear how MQA is more superior and it kept on keeping up with my upgrade while HQplayer started lagging behind. Roon is still off for me. My personal explanation for this is distortion likes distortion. But in Roon's case, it's engine is just too opaque for me that I can even tell from a laptop to AQ carbon to Hugo 2 setup, only to be verified later on with a deducted NUC on a HDPLex + conditioner.


In the Antipodes thread others dislike Roon too. They like SqueezeLite with the SqueezeLite server. But, the UI is so much worse. I have an extremely large collection of music, and I really like how Roon handles it. I’m probably being stubborn though. With my K50, it’s easy to switch everything, so I’ll experiment this weekend


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> I’m still on the fence about MQA. A lot of hip hop that is only on Tidal is MQA. I haven’t figured out how to make my K50 streamer unfold it and not Roon (though, honestly, I love Roon, so I’m hesitant. I do use a SqueezeLite player with the Roon server and UI, that I think sounds better than a Roon player with the Roon server)
> 
> Currently, having Roon unfold it, I think a non-MQA high-res version sounds better. MQA sounds “digital” to me, but I haven’t tried unfolding with my server apps.


The most accessible thing would be an Android phone doing mconnect tidal. USB c idefender to usb cable to ddc to toslink to HMS if u wanna get your feet wet before pursuing further. But from my recollection, I think the phone's distortion will make 192khz have the edge. I have to dig deep in my chats for that one. Lol. But with a zen stream and my custom psus, MQA is superior to 192khz. More stable, more midbass, less noise (via ringing) even on just a first unfold to the Dave. Then do HF ON + xfeed on the Dave.


----------



## 801evan

Ye


Ciggavelli said:


> In the Antipodes thread others dislike Roon too. They like SqueezeLite with the SqueezeLite server. But, the UI is so much worse. I have an extremely large collection of music, and I really like how Roon handles it. I’m probably being stubborn though. With my K50, it’s easy to switch everything, so I’ll experiment this weekend


Yes. Any reviewer/journalist can fudge a review. They use Roon, says MQA sucks then claim it's bit perfect so their case stands. 😉


----------



## Sajid Amit

Hi friends.
So as much as I like my Holo May, I am thinking of a change of flavor.
The May, while natural and expansive, is on the laidback side.
I was wondering if anyone here owns both or has otherwise A/B-ed the Dave (only the Dave no Mscaler) with the Holo May?
And if anyone has A/B-ed the terminator Plus with the Dave?
I know Hans B has a video comparing the Terminator Plus and Dave, but his sound comparison is so minimal.


----------



## 801evan

Anticipating the wave of ex-Chord owners, new Holo owners coming in....


----------



## alxw0w

Sajid Amit said:


> Hi friends.
> So as much as I like my Holo May, I am thinking of a change of flavor.
> The May, while natural and expansive, is on the laidback side.
> I was wondering if anyone here owns both or has otherwise A/B-ed the Dave (only the Dave no Mscaler) with the Holo May?
> ...


I think that @Triode User has compared solo Dave and Holo.
I did compare MDave and Holo some time ago, you can find my thoughts in Holo topic.

And to me Holo sounds completely different (nos mode). Everything is close upfront of you, kinda forced (I don't mean aggressive) you get the feeling of this wall of sound where every instrument is in one line and being pushed into your ears.


----------



## Triode User

Sajid Amit said:


> Hi friends.
> So as much as I like my Holo May, I am thinking of a change of flavor.
> The May, while natural and expansive, is on the laidback side.
> I was wondering if anyone here owns both or has otherwise A/B-ed the Dave (only the Dave no Mscaler) with the Holo May?
> ...


I have owned the Dave for many years. I bought a May to see what all the fuss was about. Compared to the Dave (even with no mscaler) I did not like the May at all. The May couldn’t cope with large scale orchestral works, it had a collapsed sound stage compared to the Dave and the May had nowhere near the Daves ability of not smearing music and allowing all the instruments to be heard no matter how busy the music. By contrast the May easiliy degenerated into a wall of sound with busy music or crescendos. I also found the Dave had the ability to make music where the May was reproducing individual sounds but they never seemed to come together as music. A friend has Metrum and Denafrips DACs and I noticed this as well with his Dacs when he brought them round to try in my system (he sold the DACs after hearing them against DAVE). 

I'm sorry but compared to the May the Dave is a proper grown up dac.

I hope I am not being too hard on the May but I sold it after it had 6 weeks of use hoping it would burn in and change but it never did.

Mind you I exclusively use speakers and do not own any headphones. That might make some difference.



alxw0w said:


> I think that @Triode User has compared solo Dave and Holo.


Yes and against solo TT2 and solo Qutest which I also preferred compared to the May.


----------



## adrianm

Sajid Amit said:


> I was wondering if anyone here owns both or has otherwise A/B-ed the Dave (only the Dave no Mscaler) with the Holo May?


 Solo Dave is where the magic is anyway, I'm not sure about PGGB ( I know it's  the current flavor of the month), but HQPlayer really doesn't compare to the M-scaler. And believe me, I've bought the M-scaler almost against my will and been trying to get rid of it ever since, but it's just much better than HQplayer. I only do streaming so i don't care about PGGB for now.


----------



## rkt31

Triode User said:


> I have owned the Dave for many years. I bought a May to see what all the fuss was about. Compared to the Dave (even with no mscaler) I did not like the May at all. The May couldn’t cope with large scale orchestral works, it had a collapsed sound stage compared to the Dave and the May had nowhere near the Daves ability of not smearing music and allowing all the instruments to be heard no matter how busy the music. By contrast the May easiliy degenerated into a wall of sound with busy music or crescendos. I also found the Dave had the ability to make music where the May was reproducing individual sounds but they never seemed to come together as music. A friend has Metrum and Denafrips DACs and I noticed this as well with his Dacs when he brought them round to try in my system (he sold the DACs after hearing them against DAVE).
> 
> I'm sorry but compared to the May the Dave is a proper grown up dac.
> 
> ...


Exactly. A full orchestral jazz or classical music can expose the shortcomings of timing and depth in many dacs which lack the sophisticated WTA filtering of chord dacs. Vocal oriented music on nos and R2R dacs can be a bit fuller experience because of lack of ultimate precision. A very clean, transparent and dynamic dac can present even the last ounce of details and because of these extra details these dacs can sound less fuller but that does not mean these dacs are less true to source. So in a way r2r/nos preference is more for a colored sound than accuracy.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> They claim the Holo Dac is so transparent where you can hear the vocal move left or right from the mic. Sorry that's AC main noise because the vocalist are doing close micing on a MONO mic. I've been there and got hyped with that sound but as I upgraded my chain, all that are just perceptual anomalies of the chain.


 I have no idea what it is, but i've heard that on multiple tracks when i had the LCD-5 in for a home demo. The voice is very stable on the Z1R and every headphone i've heard, but with LCD-5 it was just moving across slightly from the left to the right channel. It was extremely annoying . Not to mention other artifacts which i hadn't heard before, but now that i know where they are...i can sort of hear them with the Z1R as well


----------



## 801evan (Jan 8, 2022)

adrianm said:


> I have no idea what it is, but i've heard that on multiple tracks when i had the LCD-5 in for a home demo. The voice is very stable on the Z1R and every headphone i've heard, but with LCD-5 it was just moving across slightly from the left to the right channel. It was extremely annoying . Not to mention other artifacts which i hadn't heard before, but now that i know where they are...i can sort of hear them with the Z1R as well


Okayyy with the LCD 4 and 5...here's the thing, maybe I said it here already or another thread but, those HPs are super sensitive to radio interference. Try turning off all phones and wifi and unhook appliances as much as possible for the test. Oddly a standby induction stove has a strong interference. The lcd4 sounds smoother than a Susvara (with 1 phone on) for me. It's a smoother susvara with midbass. With the 5, you may not get the female vocal dip as much as the 4.

If you are still hearing this swaying, time to get a conditioner. This is precisely why ABX is useless because I can't do A/A before. The same track is not consistent because of these deviations brought about ac noise and radio interference. I look forward to your test. 😁😁


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> f you are still hearing this swaying, time to get a conditioner.


I do have a power conditioner. I also do have my phone, airpods and apple watch like 50 cm from Dave, and my 34 inch  monitor..5 cm above Dave, but i haven't reliably heard any differences with it on or off. Either way, still has to fit my use case.


801evan said:


> Try turning off all phones and wifi and unhook appliances as much as possible for the test


My god man, we've already bought a new apartment partly so I can switch to open backs, I'll end up living in it alone  .I am looking into setting up a separate circuit for Dave in it though.


----------



## 801evan (Jan 8, 2022)

It helps to unplug. Having it off isn't good enough. Yea I'm doing quad stage conditioning. 👀👀 My IC and HP cable are shielded because they MAY be the cause of that. I used to hear it before but not anymore. I think another big factor was taking out the hdplex. As per Watt's claims, those transformers can be a source of interference depending on implementation.

Lol. Imagine I'm trying to rent an apartment on the same floor just for headfi. Not even for loudspeakers. I'm also looking at best EMI ratings of smartphones and it's a Samsung Note. That's too big for my partner to use.


----------



## Toonartist

adrianm said:


> Solo Dave is where the magic is anyway, I'm not sure about PGGB ( I know it's  the current flavor of the month), but HQPlayer really doesn't compare to the M-scaler. And believe me, I've bought the M-scaler almost against my will and been trying to get rid of it ever since, but it's just much better than HQplayer. I only do streaming so i don't care about PGGB for now.


HQPlayer connected directly doesn't compare at all. I had an MScaler for 18 months and tried HQPlayer a couple of times connected via USB. 

It wasn't until I placed it on it's own server isolated by a fibre optic network and used an OpticalRendu as a HQP NAA (+ Uptone JS-2) that it really started to shine. To finish the system off I used a TQ Silver diamond USB from the oR into a SRC.DX and dual Oyaide FTVS-510 75 Ohm Pure Silver BNC cables into the TT2. 

After a month or two I sold the MScaler as PGGB & Streamed HQP content sounded better in my system.

The problem with HQP is it's not plug and play. You need to spend a bit of time and money to make it work well. Most people just install it on a laptop, plug a USB from the laptop to the DAC. That to my ears sound terrible. The electrical noise will be very bad. Just think about the problems MScaler has requiring Wave cables etc to tame it... a USB cable will be far worse.

For most people MScaler is the better option... just purely down to ease of installing it etc but HQP can easily compete if you spend the time with it. Also, I can stream HQP to many endpoints in the house over fibre... I don't have to move anything around!


----------



## Toonartist

Ciggavelli said:


> What bnc cables are you using with the SRC-DX?  I'm running SOtM BNCs from my M-scaler to DAVE, and I really like them.  They make good digital cables.  I also use their Ethernet cable.  I didn't get their USB cable, because I thought it might be too much filtering.



I was using Mark Grant BNC cables that worked really well but when I made a pair of BNCs from Oyaide FTVS-510 I was very surprised at the improvement. This has a very thick solid silver conductor compared to most cables I've used in the past when making BNCs. Worth the extra money.


----------



## 801evan

Toonartist said:


> I was using Mark Grant BNC cables that worked really well but when I made a pair of BNCs from Oyaide FTVS-510 I was very surprised at the improvement. This has a very thick solid silver conductor compared to most cables I've used in the past when making BNCs. Worth the extra money.


Crazy how square waves can use the help of thicker gauge right?


----------



## Toonartist (Jan 8, 2022)

801evan said:


> Crazy how square waves can use the help of thicker gauge right?



I'd looked at Oyaide FTVS-510 cable many times and just dismissed it after trying the Furutech silver cable and didn't like how it sounded. It did surprise me the difference it made, very tight bass with excellent detail... great layering with deeper staging and very smooth highs. The construction is crazy with all the different foil wraps and gauge of wire. I bought a load more of it and currently replacing all other BNCs. The Dual BNC into a 3.5mm for the Hugo 2 is a fiddly one!


----------



## alxw0w

Triode User said:


> By contrast the May easiliy degenerated into a wall of sound with busy music or crescendos. I also found the Dave had the ability to make music where the May was reproducing individual sounds but they never seemed to come together as music.


Exactly, my feelings. I just couldnt put it into the words.


----------



## adrianm

Toonartist said:


> It wasn't until I placed it on it's own server isolated by a fibre optic network and used an OpticalRendu as a HQP NAA (+ Uptone JS-2) that it really started to shine. To finish the system off I used a TQ Silver diamond USB from the oR into a SRC.DX and dual Oyaide FTVS-510 75 Ohm Pure Silver BNC cables into the TT2.


 Well i was using my gaming pc as Roon Core + HQp core and streaming to the Mind2, connected via optical to the M-scaler running on battery, with the same BNC cables you're using. Compared that to USB out of said gaming pc...the RF is clearly worse, but i haven't found a scenario where i prefer any HQp settings to..no HQp. Even when travelling with Dave, i would rather to listen to it solo via usb out of a pc/laptop than any HQp. 
     There is a lot of convenience to HQP, and a ton of options, but to me, it just feels like a bunch of half assed options that you can play with until you find something you like. Quantity, not quality.


----------



## naynay

Toonartist said:


> I'd looked at Oyaide FTVS-510 cable many times and just dismissed it after trying the Furutech silver cable and didn't like how it sounded. It did surprise me the difference it made, very tight bass with excellent detail... great layering with deeper staging and very smooth highs. The construction is crazy with all the different foil wraps and gauge of wire. I bought a load more of it and currently replacing all other BNCs. The Dual BNC into a 3.5mm for the Hugo 2 is a fiddly one!


Same cable used in the highly priced ferrite cables you can buy, it's what I used for my DIY ferrite cables I made which you can see in one of my posts.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> Well i was using my gaming pc as Roon Core + HQp core and streaming to the Mind2, connected via optical to the M-scaler running on battery, with the same BNC cables you're using. Compared that to USB out of said gaming pc...the RF is clearly worse, but i haven't found a scenario where i prefer any HQp settings to..no HQp. Even when travelling with Dave, i would rather to listen to it solo via usb out of a pc/laptop than any HQp.
> There is a lot of convenience to HQP, and a ton of options, but to me, it just feels like a bunch of half assed options that you can play with until you find something you like. Quantity, not quality.


Are you able to find a 15v powerbank? I've done 12v vs 15v on the Hypsos and 15v was better. I battled (modded) hypsos (18v out) + dxpwr 3a (15v out) vs IFI elite 15v (modded with silver occ cables) and Elite was ahead.


----------



## Toonartist

adrianm said:


> Well i was using my gaming pc as Roon Core + HQp core and streaming to the Mind2, connected via optical to the M-scaler running on battery, with the same BNC cables you're using. Compared that to USB out of said gaming pc...the RF is clearly worse, but i haven't found a scenario where i prefer any HQp settings to..no HQp. Even when travelling with Dave, i would rather to listen to it solo via usb out of a pc/laptop than any HQp.
> There is a lot of convenience to HQP, and a ton of options, but to me, it just feels like a bunch of half assed options that you can play with until you find something you like. Quantity, not quality.



I have the Roon Nucleus, Mac mini M1 for HQP and these connect to the network via fibre optics. The fibre to the streamer (oR). 

There is more than one way to skin a rabbit as they say. While the MScaler is the simplest to set up, its not the only show in town. I tend to be a very picky when it comes to audio, spent many months tweaking before I settled on my current setup. 

If they ever get to the point that an MScaler stops RF from getting to the DAC without the addition of batteries & Wave cables etc to control that bit glare I was forever trying to get rid of then I'll be back in a heart beat. I'd love to see them add an SFP cage to the DAC / MScaler so fibre could be used as a connection between MScaler and DACs... if it's possible. Isolate all the processing noise. Ethernet at the least so you have the option for FMCs.


----------



## Toonartist

801evan said:


> Are you able to find a 15v powerbank? I've done 12v vs 15v on the Hypsos and 15v was better. I battled (modded) hypsos (18v out) + dxpwr 3a (15v out) vs IFI elite 15v (modded with silver occ cables) and Elite was ahead.


I used to use a 50k mAH  Kriosdonia to power the MScaler at 12v. It was very effective but of course you have to charge it... and I listen to my system while working so I'd get through it in one day or less. 

Now, on the Pi4 with Allo Digione that I use for the Hugo2... it lasts for days on end.


----------



## Triode User

Toonartist said:


> I have the Roon Nucleus, Mac mini M1 for HQP and these connect to the network via fibre optics. The fibre to the streamer (oR).
> 
> There is more than one way to skin a rabbit as they say. While the MScaler is the simplest to set up, its not the only show in town. I tend to be a very picky when it comes to audio, spent many months tweaking before I settled on my current setup.
> 
> If they ever get to the point that an MScaler stops RF from getting to the DAC without the addition of batteries & Wave cables etc to control that bit glare I was forever trying to get rid of then I'll be back in a heart beat. I'd love to see them add an SFP cage to the DAC / MScaler so fibre could be used as a connection between MScaler and DACs... if it's possible. Isolate all the processing noise. Ethernet at the least so you have the option for FMCs.



The problem is that no matter what endgame system one has there will inevitably be tweaks that can make it better still. For instance last night I spent several hours trying different USB cables going into the SRC.DX. Yep they all sounded different.  The SRC.DX also sounds better when fed by a PhoenixUSB. My fibre ethernet was improved upon by adding the PhoenixNET as the final connection to the streamer. The only good advice is to stop somewhere on the journey, relax and just listen to the music. It will almost certainly sound great.

I am often reminded of the misquoted but still applicable saying that, “Comparison is the thief of joy.”


----------



## adrianm

Toonartist said:


> There is more than one way to skin a rabbit as they say. While the MScaler is the simplest to set up, its not the only show in town. I tend to be a very picky when it comes to audio, spent many months tweaking before I settled on my current setup.
> 
> If they ever get to the point that an MScaler stops RF from getting to the DAC without the addition of batteries & Wave cables etc to control that bit glare I was forever trying to get rid of then I'll be back in a heart beat. I'd love to see them add an SFP cage to the DAC / MScaler so fibre could be used as a connection between MScaler and DACs... if it's possible. Isolate all the processing noise. Ethernet at the least so you have the option for FMCs.


That's why i hate the M-scaler as well, but RF aside, I just found that the filter used the the M-scaler is just much better than all of those offered by HQP. The only consistently good thing I've found with it is the LNS15 noise shaper. Some of the filters added lot of separation, but completely destroyed everything else, others are just...tradeoffs with no balance.. Give me an M-scaler without a ton of RF, or the WTA algorithm in HQplayer and I'd switch in a heartbeat as well.
   What settings did you end up settling on?


----------



## naynay

I think with all this power enhancing with the Dave no sooner Dave 2 is released there will be a lot of used Dave's for sale that have been  opened tampered with.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

Sajid Amit said:


> I was wondering if anyone here owns both or has otherwise A/B-ed the Dave (only the Dave no Mscaler) with the Holo May?


I A/B-ed May with mDAVE both in full upscaling and in passthrough mode. All in all DAVE feels more precise, but less involving (less energetic). DAVE paints more complex and holographic soundstage, May have more natural and pleasant timbre. I switched to May after comparing these two.


----------



## Triode User

Ragnar-BY said:


> I A/B-ed May with mDAVE both in full upscaling and in passthrough mode. All in all DAVE feels more precise, but less involving (less energetic). DAVE paints more complex and holographic soundstage, May have more natural and pleasant timbre. I switched to May after comparing these two.


Was that with headphones or speakers?


----------



## Ragnar-BY

Triode User said:


> Was that with headphones or speakers?


I prefer headphones for “serious” listening. Don’t even have normal speakers anymore, only “smart” boxes for background music.


----------



## adrianm

Ragnar-BY said:


> I prefer headphones for “serious” listening. Don’t even have normal speakers anymore, only “smart” boxes for background music.


So what's your current setup?


----------



## Ragnar-BY

adrianm said:


> So what's your current setup?


Holo May KTE + Riviera AIC-10


----------



## adrianm

Ragnar-BY said:


> Holo May KTE + Riviera AIC-10


Well I guess you're the perfect example why skipping  Dave Mods would be a good idea.


----------



## rkt31

Speaker set up is much more revealing of depth and staging. I have tt2 +HMS +ahb2 feeding to wharfedale evo 4.2. i use headphones too but despite so much ease of use of headphones and direct connection to tt2, I prefer speaker set up. There is no match of singers and performers getting reincarnated in front of you. 😃


----------



## Ragnar-BY

adrianm said:


> Well I guess you're the perfect example why skipping  Dave Mods would be a good idea.


Yep. MScaler, DIY cables for MScaler, Wave cables for MScaler, LPSU for HMS, Farad LPSU for HMS, superexpensive PSU for DAVE… Great things to play with, but at some point I got tired of all this. 

Thanks god, I’ve realized it before buying DC4 🤣 I’d better spend extra cash on CDs or downloads.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jan 8, 2022)

You got a point but it gets so much better each time so its addicting… and yes. But both is also fun. And for me i like to tinker and doing the hobby on the listening side and tinker side😁


----------



## MvRBE10

I noticed one big difference between my utopia headphone and speakers. All upgrades are so much more notacible on my 2 way speakers. The fuses upgrade etc and in a way the lps also makes the speakers 2-3 times more effect than on my headphones. I can imagine that headfi people give less about the mscaler because my scaler has much more effect on the speakers than the headphone.

Speakers are for that matter much more detailed and dynamic than my utopia’s. Dont now if i am the only one with this feeling


----------



## alxw0w

MvRBE10 said:


> I noticed one big difference between my utopia headphone and speakers. All upgrades are so much more notacible on my 2 way speakers. The fuses upgrade etc and in a way the lps also makes the speakers 2-3 times more effect than on my headphones. I can imagine that headfi people give less about the mscaler because my scaler has much more effect on the speakers than the headphone.
> 
> Speakers are for that matter much more detailed and dynamic than my utopia’s. Dont now if i am the only one with this feeling


Some things are really hard to spot on headphones. Headphones are extremely good when it comes to details, refinement harshness extension on both ends - headphones work like a magnifying glass.
But when it comes to overall "soundstage" it could be really hard to spot the differences.


----------



## MvRBE10

Yes and scaler is soundstage and image enhancer. But richness in sound if i describe it correct is much better in speakers, i guess also due to better low end


----------



## Toonartist

Triode User said:


> The problem is that no matter what endgame system one has there will inevitably be tweaks that can make it better still. For instance last night I spent several hours trying different USB cables going into the SRC.DX. Yep they all sounded different.  The SRC.DX also sounds better when fed by a PhoenixUSB. My fibre ethernet was improved upon by adding the PhoenixNET as the final connection to the streamer. The only good advice is to stop somewhere on the journey, relax and just listen to the music. It will almost certainly sound great.
> 
> I am often reminded of the misquoted but still applicable saying that, “Comparison is the thief of joy.”


Agree 100%. I have 3 filters I like, use on HQP but only rotate it once every month or so. Sinc-Mx, Poly-Sinc-gauss-XLA and Closed-Form-M with LNS15 and sometimes NS9. 

I've been through the stage of trying out various bits of gear for my main system but once I found a sound I liked with great imaging/staging etc about a year ago I stopped looking. That said, I would consider the PhoenixUSB at some point as I've only heard positive reviews on this piece of kit! 

The Oyaide FTVS-510 was for the Hugo2 but I have ordered more for my main system as well now. Well impressed with the H2 with the Elites... great combo.


----------



## alxw0w (Jan 8, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> i guess also due to better low end


Better low end in speakers ?
Quantity yes (in terms of physical impact) but not quality and extension. Not many speakers go as low as 20hz not to mention distortion that speakers produce and also room modes (hence coloration).
Nevertheless I'm impatiently waiting for my 2 channel system to happen


----------



## Triode User

Ragnar-BY said:


> I prefer headphones for “serious” listening. Don’t even have normal speakers anymore, only “smart” boxes for background music.


I asked because I have a suspicion that 2 channel speaker systems more readily expose all the areas where Dave exceeds what the May can achieve. I do accept though that it is a matter for preference of sound because I was thinking that the May could replace my Qutest but in the end I kept the Qutest and sold the May because I preferred the Qutest when powered with a LPS to give the same total value as the May L2.


----------



## Toonartist

adrianm said:


> That's why i hate the M-scaler as well, but RF aside, I just found that the filter used the the M-scaler is just much better than all of those offered by HQP. The only consistently good thing I've found with it is the LNS15 noise shaper. Some of the filters added lot of separation, but completely destroyed everything else, others are just...tradeoffs with no balance.. Give me an M-scaler without a ton of RF, or the WTA algorithm in HQplayer and I'd switch in a heartbeat as well.
> *   What settings did you end up settling on?*



@adrianm  Sinc-Mx, Poly-Sinc-gauss-XLA with LNS15 mostly and sometimes Closed-Form NS9. The latter was the closest I found to the MScaler... I also preferred it at 384 max as well for some reason. Just sounded more like an optical out type sound.


----------



## Triode User

alxw0w said:


> Better low end in speakers ?
> Quantity yes (in terms of physical impact) but not quality and extension. Not many speakers go as low as 20hz not to mention distortion that speakers produce and also room modes (hence coloration).
> Nevertheless I'm impatiently waiting for my 2 channel system to happen


My speakers are rated down to 20Hz and what that does do and which is difficult (impossible?) to do with headphones is to physically feel the bass through ones body, even at quite low volumes.


----------



## MvRBE10

Same mine goto 20hz and with the s812 rels even dieper. Headphones do not give these thunders and room dynamic. Sometimes my complete room gives the dynamic feeling if eg. A church or concert hall it just breath. Cant explain it maybe triode can but headphones dont give that experience


----------



## The Jester

What is commonly called “soundstage” is more likely with a good speaker system, or more accurately a good, well setup speaker system within the room, using headphones on some material it’s more difficult to hear the full effect of the MScaler compared to a speaker system,
My main system is a combination of a 2 channel “hi fi” (?) setup of pre/power amps and floor standing speakers as well as a 7/2/2 home theatre setup with the HT amps front channels connected to the main preamps “theatre bypass” input, naturally for movie use the surround system has been “EQ” ‘d with the HT amps built in system using the supplied mic and creates a reasonably “ believable” movie environment, but with music it falls short of the soundstage that the MScaler gives to the dedicated 2 channel system and stepping up through the modes from bypass to maximum is easily heard in both instrument timbre, positioning and soundstage width/depth, relatively easier to choose headphones that sound “just right” for the individual listener compared to choosing speakers, and more importantly the speaker setup within the room and sometimes the compromises between the best position and aesthetics (WAF), but once “optimally” positioned the effect of the MScaler is easily heard, and once heard hard to go without.


----------



## sm60

Rob Watts said:


> Take a look at this. Hearing loss at 100dB SPL within 15 minutes. Even listening at 80 dB will give hearing loss after 2 hours.
> 
> The UK legal limit for noise is 80dB for 8 hours; for music events it's supposed to be no more than 95db (but this of course is never enforced). If you expose yourself to more than 80dB for long periods you will suffer long term hearing loss. For a music lover your hearing ability is crucial, so download a sound level meter onto your phone, and checkout how loud you are actually listening at; and if you want to preserve your hearing, listen for long periods below 80dB.


Excellent advice! One reason I don’t listen with headphones much (besides the other reason being I find them far too colored). My usual reference loudspeakers are  Quad electrostatics (57s, 2805, 2905). I monitor always with an SPL and ensure levels never exceed about 75dB at my listening chair. This is one reason I avoid discos, rock concerts or any venue with amplified sound. The worst aural experience of my life was in San Francisco 3 years ago at an IMAX theater screening of a movie where the sound levels were painfully loud. I have never gone back there. I’m in my early 60s and despite having listened to high end audio for 30+ years, my hearing remains very good (knock on wood).


----------



## Ragnar-BY

Triode User said:


> I have a suspicion that 2 channel speaker systems more readily expose all the areas where Dave exceeds what the May can achieve.


With well placed speakers in acoustically treated room - for sure. 

Honestly speaking, I can easily hear that mDAVE is giving better soundstage depth and image separation than May. I gave up my Chords because I realized that all this depth and separation did not make me happier. I did not immediately understand this, at first I was very carried away by the new impressions of DAVE's holographic nature. Then it gradually became more and more boring for me to listen to the music that I used to love. May with its rich timbres and accentuated macrodynamics reproduces the position of sound sources in space worse, but entertains me much better.


----------



## MvRBE10

Ragnar-BY said:


> With well placed speakers in acoustically treated room - for sure.
> 
> Honestly speaking, I can easily hear that mDAVE is giving better soundstage depth and image separation than May. I gave up my Chords because I realized that all this depth and separation did not make me happier. I did not immediately understand this, at first I was very carried away by the new impressions of DAVE's holographic nature. Then it gradually became more and more boring for me to listen to the music that I used to love. May with its rich timbres and accentuated macrodynamics reproduces the position of sound sources in space worse, but entertains me much better.


Is that with headset or speakers. I can understand that with headphones i rekon.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

MvRBE10 said:


> Is that with headset or speakers. I can understand that with headphones i rekon.


Headphones.


----------



## Ciggavelli

I've been switching between amps and headphones all day.  I'm now on the LCD-4 out of the DAVE.  It sounds okay, but is much more to my liking out of my WA33.  If I only had a DC4'd mDAVE, I'd probably sell the LCD-4s.  🤷‍♂️

However, they sound good out of the WA33 EE JPS (and different enough from my other headphones, with how great doom and stoner rock/metal sounds with them)


----------



## jlbrach

801evan said:


> It helps to unplug. Having it off isn't good enough. Yea I'm doing quad stage conditioning. 👀👀 My IC and HP cable are shielded because they MAY be the cause of that. I used to hear it before but not anymore. I think another big factor was taking out the hdplex. As per Watt's claims, those transformers can be a source of interference depending on implementation.
> 
> Lol. Imagine I'm trying to rent an apartment on the same floor just for headfi. Not even for loudspeakers. I'm also looking at best EMI ratings of smartphones and it's a Samsung Note. That's too big for my partner to use.


listen to your HP's in the get smart cone of silence!


----------



## 801evan

Didn't know Hans dropped a bombshell lately...


----------



## iDesign (Jan 14, 2022)

801evan said:


> Didn't know Hans dropped a bombshell lately...


How is this a bombshell let alone even surprising?


----------



## MvRBE10

Reading everywere that chord combo is much much better than holo may. But consensis is that the difference on headphones is less than on two way systems. Same as i notice on changes in general are better noticable on two wat than phones


----------



## Ragnar-BY

MvRBE10 said:


> Reading everywere that chord combo is much much better than holo may.


I think it’s more about your values. If soundstage depth, instrument separation and holographic imaging is your thing - nothing would beat DAVE equipped with MScaler, cables and PSUs.


----------



## MvRBE10

Ragnar-BY said:


> I think it’s more about your values. If soundstage depth, instrument separation and holographic imaging is your thing - nothing would beat DAVE equipped with MScaler, cables and PSUs.


Also true


----------



## Sajid Amit (Jan 15, 2022)

Hi Good People,

I just ordered a DAVE.






Is it supposed to be 8 lbs only?


----------



## jlbrach

I would assume the package has to be more than 8 pounds but who knows...i am not sure howm uch my dave weighs but the chord website definitely will have it....


----------



## genefruit

Sajid Amit said:


> Hi Good People,
> 
> I just ordered a DAVE.
> 
> ...


I think mine was marked as 11lbs but I wouldn't be concerned about it due to the vendor being upstanding.


----------



## DJJEZ (Jan 14, 2022)

Sajid Amit said:


> Hi Good People,
> 
> I just ordered a DAVE.
> 
> ...


Dave weighs 5kg (11 Ibs) I believe


----------



## Sajid Amit

jlbrach said:


> I would assume the package has to be more than 8 pounds but who knows...i am not sure howm uch my dave weighs but the chord website definitely will have it....


Most websites show it as at least 11 lbs, in some cases, higher. I assume its 11.

Hoping it’s just a reporting error? I didn’t know that could happen with FedEx.


----------



## jlbrach

my guess is just a clerical error


----------



## Ciggavelli

Sajid Amit said:


> Hi Good People,
> 
> I just ordered a DAVE.
> 
> ...


Nice!  You should delete your address though on a public forum. Bad people may take advantage


----------



## BassicScience (Jan 15, 2022)

.


----------



## Sajid Amit (Jan 15, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> Nice!  You should delete your address though on a public forum. Bad people may take advantage


Thanks for the tip. You sounded like my mom.  

I just covered up the address, to be safe.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Sajid Amit said:


> Thanks for the tip. You sounded like my mom.
> 
> I just covered up the address, to be safe.


I’ve been on other less civil forums where several people identified some posters, exposed everything about them, and kinda messed up those people’s lives (at least temporarily).  Also, I’m sure most people are aware of how that happens from time to time on Reddit. Of course, some lurker could have used that address to learn more about you or “social engineer” somebody with that info. It sounds paranoid, but it has happened before numerous times on the internet


----------



## adrianm

Sajid Amit said:


> Hi Good People,
> 
> I just ordered a DAVE.
> 
> ...


You must have the new Dave light  Congrats! I'm sure you'll enjoy it even without the m-scaler.


----------



## Sajid Amit

Ciggavelli said:


> I’ve been on other less civil forums where several people identified some posters, exposed everything about them, and kinda messed up those people’s lives (at least temporarily).  Also, I’m sure most people are aware of how that happens from time to time on Reddit. Of course, some lurker could have used that address to learn more about you or “social engineer” somebody with that info. It sounds paranoid, but it has happened before numerous times on the internet


Na, I appreciate the concern.

A significant part of the joy of this hobby has to do with interacting with kind kindred souls (such as yourself).


----------



## rkt31

If adding amp improves dave then may be adding 2 or 3 or even 4 amp in daisy chain will improve the sound of dave further. 😃


----------



## NYanakiev

I was finally able to get back to listening to music after a few weeks of home improvement works. DAVE and Scaler now finally housed in a proper rack near the sofa  
My other sources are also pretty good but DAVE is just sublime...


----------



## Slim1970

NYanakiev said:


> I was finally able to get back to listening to music after a few weeks of home improvement works. DAVE and Scaler now finally housed in a proper rack near the sofa
> My other sources are also pretty good but DAVE is just sublime...


Very nice setup!


----------



## adrianm

NYanakiev said:


> I was finally able to get back to listening to music after a few weeks of home improvement works. DAVE and Scaler now finally housed in a proper rack near the sofa
> My other sources are also pretty good but DAVE is just sublime...


That's a pretty cool table


----------



## NYanakiev

adrianm said:


> That's a pretty cool table


Yeah, love it. Made out of oak just like the floor it sits on. Weighs a ton too, which is reassuring given how chubby DAVE is.

Got even fatter since the pandemic started


----------



## MvRBE10

NYanakiev said:


> I was finally able to get back to listening to music after a few weeks of home improvement works. DAVE and Scaler now finally housed in a proper rack near the sofa
> My other sources are also pretty good but DAVE is just sublime...


Saw your post on facebook also, very cool👍🏻


----------



## Gizmo1k

Cause homeboy no like holo dacs.


----------



## eskamobob1

Sajid Amit said:


> Hi Good People,
> 
> I just ordered a DAVE.
> 
> ...


rofl. Dave is light, but not that light 

any way, looking forward to your impressions. Did you grab a blu mk2/mscaler to go with it?


----------



## thecrow

Sajid Amit said:


> Hi Good People,
> 
> I just ordered a DAVE.
> 
> ...


Are you sure you didn’t accidentally order the mojo together with the poly?


----------



## atya35mm

Thought I shared this. I suppose everyone values different things in audio setup, but the below video (a 2021 summary but ended up being more about Chord Dave / M scaler setup), Hans declared the Chord Dave / M scaler setup the king of time resolution, this being the reviewer that did in depth testing with Mola Tambaqui & Holo May Dac.


----------



## Sajid Amit

eskamobob1 said:


> rofl. Dave is light, but not that light
> 
> any way, looking forward to your impressions. Did you grab a blu mk2/mscaler to go with it?


Lol. Yeah. Wondering what happened. No, not the Blu or the mscaler yet. Apparently, there will be a new Mscaler at some point?


----------



## eskamobob1

Sajid Amit said:


> Lol. Yeah. Wondering what happened. No, not the Blu or the mscaler yet. Apparently, there will be a new Mscaler at some point?


Didn't know that but guess I'm not surprised. Tbh I'm kinda curious how much longer until the dave gets replaced even


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jan 22, 2022)

eskamobob1 said:


> Didn't know that but guess I'm not surprised. Tbh I'm kinda curious how much longer until the dave gets replaced even


I believe Rob said the custom FPGA (or whatever) haven’t advanced enough to make a DAVE 2 just yet. I think he’s still doing research, but it’ll probably be a bit until we get a DAVE 2. In the meantime, the DC4 is a good upgrade

The Choral M-Scaler may come out as early as the end of this year, last I read, but who knows. Maybe Rob can chime in


----------



## NYanakiev

Had a few friends over for an audio meet up last night and listened to the Abyss Diana Phi on my DAVE+Mscaler desktop setup. 
I currently use a Focal Utopia and was rather impressed by the soundstage and overall presentation. 

I was also somewhat surprised that DAVE drove the Phi with aplomb, especially considering some comments about DAVE having an underpowered headphone amp.
What have people found to be the best move after owning the Utopia?


----------



## simorag

NYanakiev said:


> Had a few friends over for an audio meet up last night and listened to the Abyss Diana Phi on my DAVE+Mscaler desktop setup.
> I currently use a Focal Utopia and was rather impressed by the soundstage and overall presentation.
> 
> I was also somewhat surprised that DAVE drove the Phi with aplomb, especially considering some comments about DAVE having an underpowered headphone amp.
> What have people found to be the best move after owning the Utopia?



If keeping a minimalistic setup (i.e. using the DAVE as an amp) is a must, I would recommend to try the Meze Empyrean and the Solitaire P for a different sound presentation compared to the Utopia. Other than being relatively easy to drive, they synergise very well with the DAVE IMO.

I had the Diana Phi with superconductor and - as an AB-1266 long time owner and fan, I appreciated their signature with the DAVE as well, but for my tastes I prefer some more midrange warmth / weight.

If its ridiculous pricing is not an issue, I feel the Valkyria (a quite unique sounding pair of headphones, which has become my daily driver during the last several months) pairs very well with the DAVE as well, especially for acoustic genres.

Listening to some violin concertos all this morning and I absolutely loved the timbre and texture, no hints of stridency or overly lean sound, which can sometimes happen with the 'wrong' pairing, still retaining the magic transparency and atmospheric staging of the DAVE / M-Scaler.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

NYanakiev said:


> Had a few friends over for an audio meet up last night and listened to the Abyss Diana Phi on my DAVE+Mscaler desktop setup.
> I currently use a Focal Utopia and was rather impressed by the soundstage and overall presentation.
> 
> I was also somewhat surprised that DAVE drove the Phi with aplomb, especially considering some comments about DAVE having an underpowered headphone amp.
> What have people found to be the best move after owning the Utopia?


If you want something that offer different strength compare to Utopia, and you do like your Thummim tuning, my suggestion would be Meze Elite.


----------



## muski

NYanakiev said:


> Had a few friends over for an audio meet up last night and listened to the Abyss Diana Phi on my DAVE+Mscaler desktop setup.
> I currently use a Focal Utopia and was rather impressed by the soundstage and overall presentation.
> 
> I was also somewhat surprised that DAVE drove the Phi with aplomb, especially considering some comments about DAVE having an underpowered headphone amp.
> What have people found to be the best move after owning the Utopia?


Looking at the first rate setup in your signature, I might consider keeping the Utopia and adding an Innuos Phoenix USB? I found it made a solid step up in soundstage and presentation.


----------



## Ciggavelli

muski said:


> Looking at the first rate setup in your signature, I might consider keeping the Utopia and adding an Innuos Phoenix USB? I found it made a solid step up in soundstage and presentation.


+1 for the Innuos Phoenix USB


----------



## GryphonGuy

I have been contemplating the Innuos Phoenix USB as well but at the recommendation of the PGGB folks, I've ordered the cheaper SRC-DX USB to DX Bridge from Audiowise in Canada. It's a shame that the postal shipments out of Canada to Asia are not happening ATM due to the dreaded virus.

Also waiting patiently for an ARC6/DC4 to be coming my way in mid-February.

Regards
GG


----------



## NYanakiev

muski said:


> Looking at the first rate setup in your signature, I might consider keeping the Utopia and adding an Innuos Phoenix USB? I found it made a solid step up in soundstage and presentation.


I just got the Audiowise SRC-DX, have been throughly impressed. It was about 25% of the cost of the Phoenix too! 
As for the headphones, while I like the Utopias a lot, I have never had another pair of headphones and want something with a more expansive soundstage. 

It is rather entertaining that my open-back Obravo Ra 21 C-Cu have a wider and taller soundstage versus the Utopias.


----------



## NYanakiev

I am, however, looking for a good usb- to usb-b cable that won't break the bank. 

Any recommendations?


----------



## The Jester

Supra cable is popular and well priced,
Same with the Oyaide D+ range,
After that it’s up to your ears / wallet … 😬


----------



## NYanakiev

The Jester said:


> Supra cable is popular and well priced,
> Same with the Oyaide D+ range,
> After that it’s up to your ears / wallet … 😬


Made an offer for a Supra Excalibur last night. Hopefully it gets accepted.

My pain threshold for USB cables is quite low


----------



## JTbbb

NYanakiev said:


> I just got the Audiowise SRC-DX, have been throughly impressed. It was about 25% of the cost of the Phoenix too!
> As for the headphones, while I like the Utopias a lot, I have never had another pair of headphones and want something with a more expansive soundstage.
> 
> It is rather entertaining that my open-back Obravo Ra 21 C-Cu have a wider and taller soundstage versus the Utopias.


If you want a wider and taller soundstage then I suggest the Sennhieser HD800S. Try one if you can.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

NYanakiev said:


> looking for a good usb- to usb-b cable that won't break the bank


Furutech Formula 2 - best price/performance IMO.


----------



## eskamobob1

NYanakiev said:


> I just got the Audiowise SRC-DX, have been throughly impressed. It was about 25% of the cost of the Phoenix too!
> As for the headphones, while I like the Utopias a lot, I have never had another pair of headphones and want something with a more expansive soundstage.
> 
> It is rather entertaining that my open-back Obravo Ra 21 C-Cu have a wider and taller soundstage versus the Utopias.


To be frank, basically everything is bigger than focal except the abyss Diana line. Some real exceptionally large stages are the Solitaire P and HD800S. I haven't tried either right out of the way though so I can't comment on how well that works


----------



## NYanakiev

eskamobob1 said:


> To be frank, basically everything is bigger than focal except the abyss Diana line. Some real exceptionally large stages are the Solitaire P and HD800S. I haven't tried either right out of the way though so I can't comment on how well that works


Dunno about that, the Diana Phi I tried had an exponentially more spacious presentation from the get go.


----------



## NYanakiev

As for the USB A-B cable question, thanks for the inputs. 

Found an open box Supra Excalibur with 20% off so decided to give it a go.


----------



## eskamobob1

NYanakiev said:


> Dunno about that, the Diana Phi I tried had an exponentially more spacious presentation from the get go.


O haven't had phi but I own DTC and owned V2 in the past. They are much deeper and like classically holographic, but the only time I've gotten their stage bigger than utopia is when spacing them off my head such that the pads only touch like 1/5th the way around and only quite lightly


----------



## NYanakiev

eskamobob1 said:


> O haven't had phi but I own DTC and owned V2 in the past. They are much deeper and like classically holographic, but the only time I've gotten their stage bigger than utopia is when spacing them off my head such that the pads only touch like 1/5th the way around and only quite lightly


Ah, you have the new Diana. I was having a look around for some more information about it earlier. 

I was surprised how well the Diana Phi was driven by DAVE.


----------



## eskamobob1

NYanakiev said:


> Ah, you have the new Diana. I was having a look around for some more information about it earlier.
> 
> I was surprised how well the Diana Phi was driven by DAVE.



I think one of the best things about the diana range in general is how gracefully its responds to lower current sources tbh. You throw them on something like 5WPC @ 50ohm and the difference is quite clear but other than getting a bit bass light and the stage depth shrinking some they dont do anything egregious on lower power sources (unlike say arya which gets thin and brittle and nasty if you try and throw it on an old 165mW dynamic amp)


----------



## edwardsean

NYanakiev said:


> I just got the Audiowise SRC-DX, have been throughly impressed. It was about 25% of the cost of the Phoenix too!





GryphonGuy said:


> I have been contemplating the Innuos Phoenix USB as well but at the recommendation of the PGGB folks, I've ordered the cheaper SRC-DX USB to DX Bridge from Audiowise in Canada.


I'm not sure why the Phoenix and SRC-DX are being compared to one another, as they do different things. Is the thought that they both provide an increase in SQ, but one is a lot cheaper?

In my experience they both add different qualities to the sound. The SRC-DX allows you to bypass USB, and access Dave's BNC input providing an analog smoothness and density. The Phoenix, as a USB regenerator + clock, is a much more expensive and complicated unit, but it also offers more. You not only gain a more organic tone but also imaging precision and staging space. 

Another thing to consider is that the SRC-DX really scales with better BNC cables, which are going to multiply the price if you're going dual BNC to upsample with PGGB.

If you can chain together: PGGB > Phoenix > SRC-DX > dual BNC the result is  very satisfying. This has the further benefit of powering the SRC-DX with the Sean Jacobs linear power supply in the Phoenix.


----------



## MvRBE10

edwardsean said:


> I'm not sure why the Phoenix and SRC-DX are being compared to one another, as they do different things. Is the thought that they both provide an increase in SQ, but one is a lot cheaper?
> 
> In my experience they both add different qualities to the sound. The SRC-DX allows you to bypass USB, and access Dave's BNC input providing an analog smoothness and density. The Phoenix, as a USB regenerator + clock, is a much more expensive and complicated unit, but it also offers more. You not only gain a more organic tone but also imaging precision and staging space.
> 
> ...


If you add tosliink in your equasion as i use with my aurender. Bnc and toslink are the same signal/protocol only toslink has a optical converter in between. As aurender says tos and bnc is the best from there machine. Would the bnc dx path gain me some more analogue experience maybe nick did this comparison. Basicly src-dx and wave cable to my scaler instead of toslink. Guess i can compare them 1:1 if i arrange a set.. just thinking as i am typing. Hope somebody did this already


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jan 23, 2022)

So, I went back to the DC4'd mDAVE for my TCs.  I can't believe I'm saying this, but the bass impact on the DC4'd mDAVE is actually greater than the WA33 EE JPS.  It's almost too much impact (can't believe I'm saying this).  The bass bloom is better on the WA33 EE JPS (which I guess makes sense). 

I compared the Susvara bass out of the DC4'd mDAVE and WA33 EE JPS, and they are close, but the WA33 EE JPS has more impact and extension.

I still don't know why the DC4 does this to my DAVE.  It's really confusing (but a pleasant surprise).  Anybody have any thoughts on why this is happening?


----------



## adrianm

Ciggavelli said:


> So, I went back to the DC4'd mDAVE for my TCs.  I can't believe I'm saying this, but the bass impact on the DC4'd mDAVE is actually greater than the WA33 EE JPS.  It's almost too much impact (can't believe I'm saying this).  The bass bloom is better on the WA33 EE JPS (which I guess makes sense).
> 
> I compared the Susvara bass out of the DC4'd mDAVE and WA33 EE JPS, and they are close, but the WA33 EE JPS has more impact and extension.
> 
> I still don't know why the DC4 does this to my DAVE.  It's really confusing (but a pleasant surprise).  Anybody have any thoughts on why this is happening?


I'd say it's just better power. I find the same effect every time i reduce noise, either via battery + optical to the M-scaler or add the filter. Less noise makes dynamics pop more. Like Oled vs Led.


----------



## edwardsean

MvRBE10 said:


> If you add tosliink in your equasion as i use with my aurender. Bnc and toslink are the same signal/protocol only toslink has a optical converter in between. As aurender says tos and bnc is the best from there machine. Would the bnc dx path gain me some more analogue experience maybe nick did this comparison. Basicly src-dx and wave cable to my scaler instead of toslink. Guess i can compare them 1:1 if i arrange a set.. just thinking as i am typing. Hope somebody did this already



Definitely, both BNC and toslink use S/Pdif. However, as usual, it comes down to implementation. For instance, toslink gains you galvanic decoupling, but there is distortion in converting the signal to optical and back. 

Nick and others would be able to answer your use case. For myself, using PGGB + SRC-DX is to get around Mscaler, while also getting around Dave's Amanero USB chipset. That is the advantage of SRC-DX.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jan 23, 2022)

I have the same impact on my speakers since the farad upgrade my audio buddies asked me if i placed a subwoofer. They are saying the whole system is going lower and with more impact. Same is on my utopia but less than on my two way system. My guess is that the power supply gives a more steady voltage base on the outputstages of the rca or headphones so less fluctuation but also due to less noise more theres more headroom butt thats hard to explain the really big difference it makes. So im not really sure why. Will ask the lps wizzard mattijs from farad if i speak with him maybe he has some insight on this.


----------



## NYanakiev

Hmmm pretty odd indeed. Since adding the SRC-DX to my setup, I am getting some sort of sonic artifacts at the start of some songs in Roon.
It is just the first 1 or 2 seconds but it is rather annoying. Any ideas?


----------



## edwardsean (Jan 23, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> So, I went back to the DC4'd mDAVE for my TCs.  I can't believe I'm saying this, but the bass impact on the DC4'd mDAVE is actually greater than the WA33 EE JPS.  It's almost too much impact (can't believe I'm saying this).  The bass bloom is better on the WA33 EE JPS (which I guess makes sense).
> 
> I compared the Susvara bass out of the DC4'd mDAVE and WA33 EE JPS, and they are close, but the WA33 EE JPS has more impact and extension.
> 
> I still don't know why the DC4 does this to my DAVE.  It's really confusing (but a pleasant surprise).  Anybody have any thoughts on why this is happening?



This is not a direct answer to your question, but pursues a parallel line. Yes, a lot of it does come down to: power.

However, retrofitting Dave's power supply is not the only way to increase the drive (perceived drive) of Dave's headphone output. The source/server, and its power supply, can be transformative to Dave's headphone out. Along with the DC3/DC4, I don't think that the source can change the actual power of Dave's HO either. However, the gains to SQ can be enormous, including a huge jump in the weight and punch of the bass.

This actually may be the best solution for those who: don't want an amp to keep the transparency of Dave's HO + want more drive +  don't want to void the warranty and alter Dave's internals.

I think the reason this is not more widely discussed here is that many servers don't make the kind of differences we're talking about. A lot of servers use lower power CPUs to reduce noise, which it does, but this also makes little improvement to dynamics and timbral mass. So any number of solutions from SoTM, Sonore, Innuos, etc. provide many wonderful things, but may not be what you're looking for. It wasn't what I was looking for.

Case in point, I just got through an in-home audition of the superb Grimm MU1. The Grimm has one of best implementations of a switch mode supply available today, using, I'm told, five discrete units. It had wonderful precision and pristine clarity, but the resulting signal did little for macro/micro dynamics and the visceral sculpting of tone.

What achieves these results for Dave's HO is a custom high power server with a quality supply running at higher frequencies and voltages. Yes, it will also bring increased noise and distortion too. So, this must be cleaned up, but even if it's not, this may strike a better balance of transparency v. drive than a headphone amp.

Nothing in this is easy–well unless you buy a Taiko. And that's not easy either. Apart from the cost, you have to sit your wife down and explain why you either have to sell her car or cut your child's college fund. You could sell your car, but then how would you escape when your wife responds?


----------



## Ciggavelli

edwardsean said:


> This is not a direct answer to your question, but pursues a parallel line. Yes, a lot of it does come down to: power.
> 
> However, retrofitting Dave's power supply is not the only way to increase the drive (perceived drive) of Dave's headphone output. The source/server, and its power supply, can be transformative to Dave's headphone out. Along with the DC3/DC4, I don't think that the source can change the actual power of Dave's HO either. However, the gains to SQ can be enormous, including a huge jump in the weight and punch of the bass.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I have an Antipodes K50 (not a Taiko Extreme but close). I didn’t have the K50 back in the day when I last tried the HO on the DAVE (I think I was just running it off my computer). I guess the new HO performance on my DAVE might be a combination of things (maybe also my Isotek too)


----------



## jlbrach

I am not surprised the power supply makes a large difference given the improvement I saw when I added the powerman to my formula s.....it made it seem as if it was a far more powerful amp


----------



## GryphonGuy

edwardsean said:


> I'm not sure why the Phoenix and SRC-DX are being compared to one another, as they do different things. Is the thought that they both provide an increase in SQ, but one is a lot cheaper?
> 
> In my experience they both add different qualities to the sound. The SRC-DX allows you to bypass USB, and access Dave's BNC input providing an analog smoothness and density. The Phoenix, as a USB regenerator + clock, is a much more expensive and complicated unit, but it also offers more. You not only gain a more organic tone but also imaging precision and staging space.
> 
> ...



The only reason I am choosing the SRC-DX route first is that, it too, is fed by USB but as you say converts the USB into the DX signal required by DAVE for the higher resolutions. So in my system does the current USB chain benefit in SQ by going the conversion to DX route using DAVE as the output? If so, then it will probably benefit more from a phoenix USB to regenerate/reclock the USB signal feeding the SRC-DX.

With such a big purchase of the ARC6-DC4 coming up, I am not made of money so I have chosen a not so expensive staged approach to signal betterment for my Dave.

I don't think I've misunderstood the role of the various equipment, it's just a which is first approach.

Regards
GG


----------



## Progisus

NYanakiev said:


> Hmmm pretty odd indeed. Since adding the SRC-DX to my setup, I am getting some sort of sonic artifacts at the start of some songs in Roon.
> It is just the first 1 or 2 seconds but it is rather annoying. Any ideas?


I get those as well if the sample rate changes. I use the resync delay in roon to soften this. You may lose a very tiny piece of the track but it is at least silent.


----------



## Triode User

edwardsean said:


> You could sell your car, but then how would you escape when your wife responds?


Simple, sell her car instead?


----------



## NYanakiev

Progisus said:


> I get those as well if the sample rate changes. I use the resync delay in roon to soften this. You may lose a very tiny piece of the track but it is at least silent.


Tried with a 500ms delay, only helps a little. The strange thing is that I never had this prior to getting the SRC-DX with the extra BNC cable.


----------



## Progisus

NYanakiev said:


> Tried with a 500ms delay, only helps a little. The strange thing is that I never had this prior to getting the SRC-DX with the extra BNC cable.


I am at 2000ms but I can live any track losses rather than the clicks and pops.


----------



## naynay

I haven't taken a lot of notice regarding the Sean Jacobs ARC6 for the Dave but did recently have a look on his website.

£7000 for the ARC6 spec. I can see the next upgrade to the ARC6 costing more than the Dave.


----------



## MvRBE10

Take a look at the farad upgrade?


----------



## naynay

MvRBE10 said:


> Take a look at the farad upgrade?


Yes there are those. I am waiting on Nick's findings when he gets to compare those to his ARC6 which I believe he said he would try to arrange.


----------



## MvRBE10

Probably with mine setup😁


----------



## marcmccalmont

Guys I’ve upgraded my Dave with the SJ arc6 power supply with positive results. I’m considering upgrading my Aurender N10. Any suggestions without having to sell the car? I’m interested in a significant upgrade. Thanks in advance.


----------



## edwardsean (Jan 25, 2022)

*Does the size of your DAC matter? An open question about the legitimacy of "Dave on steroids" (stereoids?) or what happens when you make Dave angry? *



This is a really basic video, but I came across it as a certain thought is coalescing in my mind. As I experiment with servers and DACs, I can't seem to escape the fact that a DAC needs space and weight–I mean literally. A kind of audio "conservation of mass," [big physical DAC = big physical sound].

Of course this is wrong! Right? It all comes down to implementation! Right?

Rob Watts gently chided DC4 users here about judging power supplies "with our eyes." Nevertheless, I suspected that the cheap, tiny power supply in Dave was an economic concession. This has grown into a more nuanced thought parsing "cheap" from "tiny." I think whenever Dave 2 comes out, it will have a more complex and costly supply, but I think it will still be a small, switch mode design.

Rob Watts, Eelco Grimm, and Brian Putzey are three of the finest digital minds alive, and switch-mode is not about cost or weight, but their sonic goals.

https://www.soundstageultra.com/ind...s-of-mola-mola-hypex-and-grimm-audio-part-one

So, in this corner you have your feather-weights: Dave, Tambaqui, MU1, etc. In this corner you have your heavy-weights: dCS, Terminator, Antipodes, etc. And, I have this comical image of the smaller "box-ers" dancing with speed and agility around the bigger "box-ers." But, should one of the big gorillas land a punch, well... mass is mass. I just finished a second match up of Dave v. Bartok, which only clarified my thinking of their many differences.

I think this equation completely changes if you're adding downstream amplification with its own PS. At this point though I'm not expecting a lot from a demo of Tambaqui's  headphone-out without an amp. (I recently finished a trial of the Grimm MU1.)

This all is obviously–way–more complicated than a simplistic matter of size. So, I ask it as an open question. Surely the path to pristine resolution and space can go through a small switch-mode supply (perhaps preferably). However, is the only way to powerful dynamics and visceral density through bulky transformers and large capacitor arrays?
That is, if a theoretical Dave 2 does employ a SMPS, will even that need a SJ DC4 Arc 6–2?

I really wonder if Dave + SJ PS + hi-power server is just the best solution currently available. I wasn't sure because I tumbled down this rabbit hole, but now as I explore the tunnels-not-taken, I keep coming back to my happy little warren. Many have described the addition of a SJ PS or powerful server as: "Dave on steroids." Well...

TL;DR:
_Like the old line from "The Hulk," Rob Watts says not to make Dave angry, but I like Dave when he's angry. Dave + more power = good. Dave still smart, but Dave also smash._


----------



## Ciggavelli

marcmccalmont said:


> Guys I’ve upgraded my Dave with the SJ arc6 power supply with positive results. I’m considering upgrading my Aurender N10. Any suggestions without having to sell the car? I’m interested in a significant upgrade. Thanks in advance.


I have the Antipodes K50 ($15K list) with Innuos Phoenix USB.  I really like it. There’s some comparisons on here somewhere. If your car is expensive, then there’s the Taiko Extreme for like $20K+ list. People did a comparison of the two and supposedly the Taiko is only slightly better. I haven’t tried the Taiko, so I can’t speak to any firsthand comparisons on my end though.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Ciggavelli said:


> I have the Antipodes K50 ($15K list) with Innuos Phoenix USB.  I really like it. There’s some comparisons on here somewhere. If your car is expensive, then there’s the Taiko Extreme for like $20K+ list. People did a comparison of the two and supposedly the Taiko is only slightly better. I haven’t tried the Taiko, so I can’t speak to any firsthand comparisons on my end though.


Have you had a chance to listen to an N10 for comparison?


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jan 25, 2022)

marcmccalmont said:


> Have you had a chance to listen to an N10 for comparison?


Unfortunately, no. There’s an Antipodes thread in the Computer audio section of head-fi. Somebody might be able to help.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cx-ex-k-s-antipodes-owners-unite.932942/page-105

Also, I think the What’s Best Forum has a good K50 thread too

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/introduction-of-my-new-antipodes-k50-music-server.31942/


----------



## BassicScience

edwardsean said:


> *Does the size of your DAC matter? An open question about the legitimacy of "Dave on steroids" (stereoids?) or what happens when you make Dave angry? *
> 
> 
> 
> ...



DACs (in the purist sense) drive other electronics, which means they aren't sourcing much current. Hence, "powerful dynamics and visceral density" are actually more reliant on the amplification in the chain. (If you want to talk about combo units such as those from Chord, that's a different discussion.) Switched-mode power supplies are most certainly up to the task of delivering powerful dynamics and visceral density, as evidenced by their inclusion in Hypex- and Purifi-based amplifiers, which I now use exclusively for both speakers and (low efficiency) headphones.


----------



## edwardsean (Jan 26, 2022)

BassicScience said:


> DACs (in the purist sense) drive other electronics, which means they aren't sourcing much current. Hence, "powerful dynamics and visceral density" are actually more reliant on the amplification in the chain. (If you want to talk about combo units such as those from Chord, that's a different discussion.) Switched-mode power supplies are most certainly up to the task of delivering powerful dynamics and visceral density, as evidenced by their inclusion in Hypex- and Purifi-based amplifiers, which I now use exclusively for both speakers and (low efficiency) headphones.


I appreciate your comment about switch mode supplies in other units. That's really helpful! But, dynamics and density in the Dave–as a combo unit–has been a huge long-term discussion on this thread, as to whether to add an amp or not.

The progress made in that discussion is that it has now broadened out beyond the binary: amp/ no amp.  The impact of external power supplies and servers have become included. For me, the most critical part of that is how this impacts the Dave's ability to deliver a more powefulr sound without adding amplification to the chain.


----------



## BassicScience

edwardsean said:


> I appreciate your comment about switch mode supplies in other units. That's really helpful! But, dynamics and density in the Dave–as a combo unit–has been a huge long-term discussion on this thread, as to whether amp or not to amp.
> 
> The progress made in that discussion is that it has now broadened out beyond the binary: amp/ no amp.  The impact of external power supplies and servers have become included. For me, the most critical part of that is how this impacts the Dave's ability to deliver a more powefulr sound without adding amplification to the chain.


Fair enough. I think the main point I was trying to convey was that while any given implementation of a power supply may be deficient in one way or another, there is nothing *inherently* suboptimal about using switched-mode power supplies in the context of audio equipment.

Carry on, folks...


----------



## griff500

I found that a power cable made more of a difference to my Dave than it did on any other component, so I can believe that a DC4 or ARC will make a difference, although I'm not currently (pun intended) inclined to spend more on the power supply than I did on the Dave.


----------



## Ciggavelli

edwardsean said:


> I appreciate your comment about switch mode supplies in other units. That's really helpful! But, dynamics and density in the Dave–as a combo unit–has been a huge long-term discussion on this thread, as to whether add an amp or not.
> 
> The progress made in that discussion is that it has now broadened out beyond the binary: amp/ no amp.  The impact of external power supplies and servers have become included. For me, the most critical part of that is how this impacts the Dave's ability to deliver a more powefulr sound without adding amplification to the chain.


So, I’ve been comparing DC4 mDAVE with my WA33 EE JPS. I personally prefer the “distortion” the WA33 brings, but I could see others wanting to only use a DC4’d mDAVE. I’m probably biased, as I’ve been listening to everything out of a WA33 for a long while now. I find the DC4m’d mDAVE (no amp) to be a little fatiguing, but it’s probably due to the increased detail in the sound (with no added WA33 coloration)


----------



## number1sixerfan (Jan 26, 2022)

I think all of the recent insight around power supplies has been really intriguing. I'm honestly a bit less inclined to void the warranty of the Dave or even open it up (although I've built PCs and it looks ridiculously simple), but I would absolutely love to see these insights and feedback incorporated in the next iteration of Dave potentially. Even still, going to read up more and may just end up looking at the SJ PS or Bartok.

Also, I really hope this clears up another misconception in this thread. Dave purists have always parroted that "if you prefer the Dave + an amplifier, you simply like color and distortion". This is a poor and faulty analysis, largely stemming from purist related bias (and or related to simply not wanting to spend more money). Transparency is one factor. Sufficient and/or optimized amplification of the transducers is another (which can impact many other areas of the sound other than transparency). Both should be taken into account from a tradeoff point of view based on a given user's preferences and the headphones they're using. Again, if you can understand that a SJ PSU can improve the sound of the Dave, you should fundamentally understand how Dave + an amp can also do so (specifically speaking on TOTL amps that almost always have optimal/beefy PS). In any event, test and experiment and truly decide for yourself. And if you simply prefer the Dave solo due to the transparency aspect, despite any given amplification tradeoffs, that's totally fine too--but there is no objective 'best' here.


----------



## jlbrach

no objective best for sure,although I tend to use an amp the most true to the source sound is straight out of the dave


----------



## number1sixerfan (Jan 26, 2022)

jlbrach said:


> no objective best for sure,although I tend to use an amp the most true to the source sound is straight out of the dave



I hear you for sure, but that totally depends on the level of amplification & power needed for a given pair of headphones. But with really efficient headphones, I do largely agree.


----------



## Triode User

number1sixerfan said:


> I think all of the recent insight around power supplies has been really intriguing. I'm honestly a bit less inclined to void the warranty of the Dave or even open it up (although I've built PCs and it looks ridiculously simple), but I would absolutely love to see these insights and feedback incorporated in the next iteration of Dave potentially. Even still, going to read up more and may just end up looking at the SJ PS or Bartok.
> 
> Also, I really hope this clears up another misconception in this thread. Dave purists have always parroted that "if you prefer the Dave + an amplifier, you simply like color and distortion". This is a poor and faulty analysis, largely stemming from purist related bias (and or related to simply not wanting to spend more money). Transparency is one factor. Sufficient and/or optimized amplification of the transducers is another (which can impact many other areas of the sound other than transparency). Both should be taken into account from a tradeoff point of view based on a given user's preferences and the headphones they're using. Again, if you can understand that a SJ PSU can improve the sound of the Dave, you should fundamentally understand how Dave + an amp can also do so (specifically speaking on TOTL amps that almost always have optimal/beefy PS). In any event, test and experiment and truly decide for yourself. And if you simply prefer the Dave solo due to the transparency aspect, despite any given amplification tradeoffs, that's totally fine too--but there is no objective 'best' here.


Don’t forget that many (most?) people use the Dave in a speaker system and that therefore almost inevitably an amplifier is required. Of course one could use say a TT2 to drive appropriate speakers direct but to my ears a Dave plus my Pass Labs amps is more transparent than the TT2 direct in a speaker system.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Triode User said:


> Don’t forget that many (most?) people use the Dave in a speaker system and that therefore almost inevitably an amplifier is required. Of course one could use say a TT2 to drive appropriate speakers direct but to my ears a Dave plus my Pass Labs amps is more transparent than the TT2 direct in a speaker system.



Yea that's not lost on me at all. I mentioned that in a prior post on here long ago, along with the fact that ultimately that it had to be designed with that use case in mind. I do focus more on headphones as that's what I use it with and know that's what most here do as well, but it's definitely not lost on me.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...as a datapoint: I use Dave/SJdc4/Denefrips Gaia to power Omega SAM speakers direct in a second system. Sounds good. Works fine.


----------



## alxw0w

Since there is no actual QBD (old chord top dac) topic on the head fi I assume that this is the most proper place to share this one.
Lately I found some measurements (using apx555) of QBD76. And keeping in mind that this dac is from 2008 (!) the performance is just very very good even by today standards.
I bet that back in the day it was SOTA. 
Some of the high end stuff that cost much more cannot match this even today. This is just impressive stuff.
https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/measurements-of-chord-qbd76hd/


----------



## Jawed

@Rob Watts from the article linked above there is this multi-tone test result:







I'm just wondering if this is a way to demonstrate good noise floor modulation performance in your DACs?


----------



## ecwl

alxw0w said:


> Since there is no actual QBD (old chord top dac) topic on the head fi I assume that this is the most proper place to share this one.
> Lately I found some measurements (using apx555) of QBD76. And keeping in mind that this dac is from 2008 (!) the performance is just very very good even by today standards.
> I bet that back in the day it was SOTA.
> Some of the high end stuff that cost much more cannot match this even today. This is just impressive stuff.
> https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/measurements-of-chord-qbd76hd/


I had the QBD76 and then upgraded it to the QBD76HDSD version. I was so impressed by it that when DAVE was announced, I just asked my dealer to order it without even listening to it because I just knew it was going to be something special. And listening to Durufle's organ music last night, DAVE still is extremely impressive.


----------



## alxw0w

ecwl said:


> I had the QBD76 and then upgraded it to the QBD76HDSD version. I was so impressed by it that when DAVE was announced, I just asked my dealer to order it without even listening to it because I just knew it was going to be something special. And listening to Durufle's organ music last night, DAVE still is extremely impressive.


No wonder, Rob means business. 
I hope to audition QBD someday.


----------



## ecwl

alxw0w said:


> No wonder, Rob means business.
> I hope to audition QBD someday.


Meh. QBD was great for its time. But from a practical perspective:
1. QBD76 has no digital volume control
2. It has 3V output that can't be attenuated
3. The USB implementation was much more problematic (although in hindsight, I should have used the Toslink input more)
But the biggest issues were:
1. In general, even the Qutest sounds better than QBD76 except for...
2. The QBD76 has 16 elements pulse array DAC so I find that QBD76 beats Qutest only in soundstage depth.
By modern Chord standards, QBD76 doesn't have enough tap lengths to do the proper upsampling to ensure great timing accuracy, and it doesn't have a high-order enough noise shaper to get the microdetails as nice as the modern Qutest/Hugo 2.
I think life is too short to waste time listening to inferior DACs. QBD76 is a great historical monument to what Rob Watts was able to achieve with the technology at the time. But I don't think it's worth seeking one out just to have a listen.


----------



## alxw0w

ecwl said:


> Meh. QBD was great for its time. But from a practical perspective:
> 1. QBD76 has no digital volume control
> 2. It has 3V output that can't be attenuated
> 3. The USB implementation was much more problematic (although in hindsight, I should have used the Toslink input more)
> ...


Yes I understand. 
Nevertheless current price could be kinda "low" and it could be a interesting choice for seconds or third system in home


----------



## Progisus

alxw0w said:


> Yes I understand.
> Nevertheless current price could be kinda "low" and it could be a interesting choice for seconds or third system in home


The TT1 is a good bargain and one smooth sounding dac. The fact that it is battery powered negates the power supply upgrades and the super caps make for a great headphone amp. I use it in a second system.


----------



## ecwl

alxw0w said:


> Yes I understand.
> Nevertheless current price could be kinda "low" and it could be a interesting choice for seconds or third system in home


Except you could also get a used Qutest instead if you're going to buy used at a discount.
With the QBD76, you need to make sure your pre-amp is capable of handling the high 3V/6V output from QBD76 without clipping whereas with Qutest, you can turn it down to 1V/2V. And Qutest has a better USB implementation. To me, a used Qutest would be a more interesting choice than a used QBD76 for a second/third system in the home.


----------



## Triode User

ecwl said:


> Except you could also get a used Qutest instead if you're going to buy used at a discount.
> With the QBD76, you need to make sure your pre-amp is capable of handling the high 3V/6V output from QBD76 without clipping whereas with Qutest, you can turn it down to 1V/2V. And Qutest has a better USB implementation. To me, a used Qutest would be a more interesting choice than a used QBD76 for a second/third system in the home.


Yes, the Qutest second hand is remarkable value and gets my vote for a second system. Indeed that is what I did.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

Interesting, I just heard QBD as well few days ago. 

At first I also think that QBD is far by relevant by today standard (13/14 years old DAC!).

So I hooked it to Formula S, then play some songs with Abyss Diana V2. What a pleasant surprise, sound is flowing nicely. So I changed to Qutest that on paper should be better. Turn out Qutest perform a little bit cooler, drier, smaller soundstage. Detail is great, but the "lively" feeling is rather much less here. 

Then I decided to use my TT2 as source, as I felt QBD was actually more relax and kind of warmer sounding of chord product, so TT would be an ideal competitor. Result is no contest, TT2 perform even fuller body, with easy-to-notice better micro detail. TT2 slight wider in term of soundstage, but height and depth are clearly better on TT2.

I think QBD still nice and relevant DAC till today, but of course the original price is kind of overprice now.  Not sure what's the price in second hand market though. If it has the same price as Qutest, then I will choose QBD.


----------



## ecwl

TheMiddleSky said:


> Interesting, I just heard QBD as well few days ago.
> 
> At first I also think that QBD is far by relevant by today standard (13/14 years old DAC!).
> 
> ...


To me, this is a perfect issue about QBD. So the Formula S input sensitivity is 1000mV. Now, it's possible that it won't clip with a 3V input signal. But ideally, based on the specifications, you would want to set Qutest to 1V (or even 2V) and then crank the volume of the Formula S to get the optimal sound rather than risk clipping and run Qutest/QBD at 3V.

I have to acknowledge I haven't done a direct A/B test between QBD76HDSD and Qutest. But of the systems where I'm certain there is no clipping, I prefer Qutest over QBD76.

As a total aside about how I think the 3V decision for Chord is problematic. Even Chord's own Anni asks you to set the Qutest to 2V output, instead of 3V. There are simply many preamp/amp that clip at >2V (and sadly sometimes even at 1V).


----------



## nwavesailor

Tonight was the  first night with the Dave + Ms in place of the TT2/ Ms and using the Bigger Ben. It is a very different sound, full yet  relaxed and with very nice detail and claity.
 It has a more intimate presentation than the TT2. It feels like you are closer to being in the venue or recording studio. 
I used the LCD-5 tonight and looking at the Sus and perhaps the P tomorrow night.


----------



## CBR954RR

Over the last couple of days I've had on loan WAVE Storm Reference cables between MScaler / Dave, I won't be returning these cables!!


----------



## MvRBE10

CBR954RR said:


> Over the last couple of days I've had on loan WAVE Storm Reference cables between MScaler / Dave, I won't be returning these cables!!


Nobody does…..


----------



## CBR954RR

I was sceptical but the first few seconds of playback decision made.


----------



## miketlse

CBR954RR said:


> I was sceptical but the first few seconds of playback decision made.


These type of posts do remind me of the early months of the Mojo thread.
Many sceptical posters visited dealers intending to buy other Dacs, demoed the Mojo as part of their visit, and left with a Mojo in their hands.
Some products are so good that the decisions can be quickly made.


----------



## Sampajanna

Storm cables were immediate for me as well. Undeniably better, and amongst the most influential cable upgrades i have ever experienced. The DC4 even more so, though not a cable.


----------



## Rob Watts

Jawed said:


> @Rob Watts from the article linked above there is this multi-tone test result:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No it's actually a useless way of doing it, as the ADC noise floor modulation is much bigger than my DACs. The only way of overcoming the ADC issue is to use a notch filter, and feed the ADC with just the residual noise, so the ADC just measures the distortion and noise, not the actual signal. The APx555 has a great way of doing this - one ADC covers the fundamental sine wave signal, another looks at the notched signal (it's notched via a low distortion analogue notch filter). Then the APx555 stitches the two results together in the digital domain. If the analogue notch filter is perfect, then ADC noise floor modulation is eliminated.

The downside to this is that only a single notch is employed, so you can only use a single tone sine wave input.


----------



## nwavesailor

Sampajanna said:


> Storm cables were immediate for me as well. Undeniably better, and amongst the most influential cable upgrades i have ever experienced. The DC4 even more so, though not a cable.


I have a pair of Storm ordered and I am currently using the Streams.


----------



## Sajid Amit

The Dave’s landed.





What is the recommended burn-in period?


----------



## Slim1970

Sajid Amit said:


> The Dave’s landed.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the recommended burn-in period?


I don’t think it’s needed with the Dave honestly. I really can’t detect any significant changes over time at all.


----------



## alxw0w

Sajid Amit said:


> The Dave’s landed.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the recommended burn-in period?


None, just your perception/brain needs to adjust to something that you never heard before.


----------



## nwavesailor

I wondered the same thing since I have just received a new Dave as well! 
It sounds great already and a nice step up from the TT2 / Ms.


----------



## alxw0w

nwavesailor said:


> I wondered the same thing since I have just received a new Dave as well!
> It sounds great already and a nice step up from the TT2 / Ms.


Did you also find it to be better than TT2 M scaler combo ?
I'm wondering if it's only me or there are other people that prefer solo Dave to MTT2 combo.


----------



## alekc

Sajid Amit said:


> The Dave’s landed.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the recommended burn-in period?


@Sajid Amit there is none, especially considering its internal design. For me Dave has been too bright and to much focused on very detailed, critical listening hence I've stayed with MHTT2. I can listen to MHTT2, especially with AuroraSound HEADA for hours (in fact this is what I am doing right now writing those words), while I couldn't achieve the same with Dave. On the other hand if I would like to do a shorter critical listening session of classical music recording, Dave is the tool for that job.


----------



## Triode User

alxw0w said:


> I'm wondering if it's only me or there are other people that prefer solo Dave to MTT2 combo.


I am a long time advocate of solo Dave as being better to my ears than Mscaler + TT2. It is the unassailable transparency of Dave and its delicacy of its sound that I prefer.


----------



## Triode User

Sajid Amit said:


> The Dave’s landed.
> What is the recommended burn-in period?


Zero according to my ears. I have had a 5yr old Dave and a brand new one sat next to each other with no discernible difference in sound. 

Sit back and enjoy it.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jan 31, 2022)

Sajid Amit said:


> The Dave’s landed.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the recommended burn-in period?


I noticed a slightly smoother sound after a week of two.. non stop on!!! Streamer in a loop. But its a bit nitpicking. Its not like an amp or pre


----------



## MvRBE10

alxw0w said:


> Did you also find it to be better than TT2 M scaler combo ?
> I'm wondering if it's only me or there are other people that prefer solo Dave to MTT2 combo.


In my two way setup it is miles better than the tt2 combo. But on my utopia the difference is much smaller. More musical more image more depth. After lps and wave bnc it went in warp mode. But the tt2 has the same effect but is not that engaging on two way setup. Ow and bass is on the dave from another dimension. Friends were asking were the sub was hidden. But the dave bass adds much more feel in the music and layers it. You van place it all much better.


----------



## alxw0w (Jan 31, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> But on my utopia the difference is much smaller


I wouldn't expect anything less. Headphones are really "weak" link when paired with Chord gear.
I'm impatiently waiting for my 2 channel system (the real one, not the current one that I have just for listening music in the background) to happen.


----------



## MvRBE10

alxw0w said:


> I wouldn't expect anything less. Headphones are really "weak" link when paired with Chord gear.
> I'm impatiently waiting for my 2 channel system (the real one, not the current one that I have just for listening music in the background) to happen.


Also noticed something rather odd on my dave this night. When streaming good music to my two set like sarah mclachlan that kknd of music it sound mind blowing. When i stream popmusic from my daughter i mostly leave the room as its to much of everything. Now the odd thing is the just airplayed a spotify list of here to my autender to the dave setup and it really sounds relaxed musical and engaging. When i download the same on qobuz it is more detailed but not nicely background if you understand what i mean. Reaaly odd or maybe the crappy recorded music is made better by low res spotify…..


----------



## Ciggavelli

MvRBE10 said:


> In my two way setup it is miles better than the tt2 combo. But on my utopia the difference is much smaller. More musical more image more depth. After lps and wave bnc it went in warp mode. But the tt2 has the same effect but is not that engaging on two way setup. Ow and bass is on the dave from another dimension. Friends were asking were the sub was hidden. But the dave bass adds much more feel in the music and layers it. You van place it all much better.


Yeah bass texture is much better on the DAVE (even without the M-Scaler or DC4). I couldn’t go back to mTT2


----------



## DJJEZ

Ciggavelli said:


> Yeah bass texture is much better on the DAVE (even without the M-Scaler or DC4). I couldn’t go back to mTT2


same here. i was never truly happy with the TT2 bass.


----------



## 801evan

Optimal Dave operation is where it's warm enough you can feel the heat wave warm up ur hands when you hover ur hand over the chassis. Best to cover all the unused ports too.

So A\Bing where unplugging the unit then trying another is unideal since Dave will lose its warm up.


----------



## Triode User

DJJEZ said:


> same here. i was never truly happy with the TT2 bass.


If one has never heard a Dave then the TT2 bass is pretty good but the Dave bass just has so much more detail, texture and depth. Once heard there is no going back!


----------



## Sajid Amit (Feb 1, 2022)

I have posted my Dave for sale at what I believe ought to be a good price. Quick catch and release.

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/chord-dave-open-box.19299/#hfc-comment-28336

Its lovely don’t get me wrong, but I prefer the May with estats. Rather it goes to someone else that will like it more. 🙂


----------



## stemiki

Sajid Amit said:


> I have posted my Dave for sale at what I believe ought to be a good price. Quick catch and release.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/chord-dave-open-box.19299/#hfc-comment-28336
> 
> Its lovely don’t get me wrong, but I prefer the May with estats. Rather it goes to someone else that will like it more. 🙂


I don't understand the sense of buying a major electronics like DAVE and reselling it after only one day.

Not even the time to understand how it works .....     It would be appropriate to wait at least a month ... IMHO


----------



## alxw0w

Sajid Amit said:


> I have posted my Dave for sale at what I believe ought to be a good price. Quick catch and release.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/chord-dave-open-box.19299/#hfc-comment-28336
> 
> Its lovely don’t get me wrong, but I prefer the May with estats. Rather it goes to someone else that will like it more. 🙂


LOL that was fast.
Isnt it better to return unit to the dealer ?


----------



## ra990

Sajid Amit said:


> I have posted my Dave for sale at what I believe ought to be a good price. Quick catch and release.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/chord-dave-open-box.19299/#hfc-comment-28336
> 
> Its lovely don’t get me wrong, but I prefer the May with estats. Rather it goes to someone else that will like it more. 🙂


That's shocking, it must have been a big disappointment for you to list it in a matter of hours. At least keep it for a couple of weeks and do a YT review on it!


----------



## number1sixerfan (Feb 1, 2022)

stemiki said:


> I don't understand the sense of buying a major electronics like DAVE and reselling it after only one day.
> 
> Not even the time to understand how it works .....     It would be appropriate to wait at least a month ... IMHO



In this specific case I can understand, and I even reached out to Sajid and confirmed his own assessment once I saw his ad. The Dave can be too bright and clinical with electrostatics. It's already analytical (but not in a bad way, still very musical), but it can exacerbate the brightness/overly analytical (in a bad way) issues that many stats already inherently have.

Personally, I've kept mine because the holographic nature, detail and transparency has been worth it for me totally. Especially with the Mscaler. But I too have posted about how I'm curious about the May and Bartok for those reasons.

With planars and dynamics this generally isn't an issue, except with some specific outlier headphones.


----------



## Sajid Amit (Feb 1, 2022)

ra990 said:


> That's shocking, it must have been a big disappointment for you to list it in a matter of hours. At least keep it for a couple of weeks and do a YT review on it!


Yup. Big disappointment definitely. It brought my Susvaras to life so there's that, but rather unlistenable with estats. I wanted a more energetic DAC to complement the May, but this goes beyond my expectations in that regard, lol. I can't listen to my Stax off them for too long, and the TC is far better paired with the May.

Granted, this is just a DAVE and not the Mscaler + Dave.


----------



## Sajid Amit (Feb 1, 2022)

stemiki said:


> I don't understand the sense of buying a major electronics like DAVE and reselling it after only one day.
> 
> Not even the time to understand how it works .....     It would be appropriate to wait at least a month ... IMHO


Well, I wanted to hold on to it. But I just don't like it. It's a clear decision for me. I probably liked it less on day 2 and today is day 3.

The differences in presentation between a May and a Dave is so significant, that I have realized I should stick to R2R in the future. I do want a second DAC to change up flavors. I have heard the T-Plus and it was nice but needed to try the Dave at home.

But I can respect it if you like it. The bass on the Dave is spectacular. As are the details.


----------



## Ciggavelli

The DAVE is clinical, which makes it pair well with tube amps in my opinion. DAVE solo can be a little bright and fatiguing until you get used to it.  Detail is important to me in a dac, more so than a warm tone. Everybody likes different things though.  But, yeah, it can understand somebody not preferring Chord’s implementation 🤷‍♂️


----------



## nwavesailor (Feb 1, 2022)

With only a few hours on my Dave it already sounds crazy good and as @Ciggavelli mentioned the Dave does pair well with tube amps!
I did not try the May but it's sibling, the Holo Spring 3 KTE w/ preamp. It was very good and frankly a bargain for the cost but I think I simply prefer the Chord house sound.
I started with a Qutest, then the TT2 (w/ Ms) now a Dave and heard a nice improvement on every step up. I liked the Holo but I preffered the Chord.


----------



## Slim1970

Sajid Amit said:


> Well, I wanted to hold on to it. But I just don't like it. It's a clear decision for me. I probably liked it less on day 2 and today is day 3.
> 
> The differences in presentation between a May and a Dave is so significant, that I have realized I should stick to R2R in the future. I do want a second DAC to change up flavors. I have heard the T-Plus and it was nice but needed to try the Dave at home.
> 
> But I can respect it if you like it. The bass on the Dave is spectacular. As are the details.


Definitely appreciate you trying out the Dave. At least can never say you didn't. Like @Ciggavelli I value detail, clarity, speed, dynamics, and attack. The Dave excels at these attributes with a great low end to boot.


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> The DAVE is clinical, which makes it pair well with tube amps in my opinion. DAVE solo can be a little bright and fatiguing until you get used to it.  Detail is important to me in a dac, more so than a warm tone. Everybody likes different things though.  But, yeah, it can understand somebody not preferring Chord’s implementation 🤷‍♂️


Do you still feel the clinical nature of the Dave with the HMS and Phoenix? And maybe you were able to try it  before the dc4? I heard the clinical nature of the Dave on USB and with a lesser grade line conditioner but it's practically reference god level on src dx with sorbothanes (big difference with sorbos) and a higher grade line conditioner. The details have moved down to a much readable and palatable level. It's like when you watch bands and the first 3 songs are usually off since the soundboard guy is still massaging the levels to balance the sound. What was initially details that was moving towards you ,a bit strident and hard on the micros, it is now sensory experience giving spatial cues, air, proper reverb, sustain and decay that is very dimensional.


----------



## Ciggavelli (Feb 1, 2022)

801evan said:


> Do you still feel the clinical nature of the Dave with the HMS and Phoenix? And maybe you were able to try it  before the dc4? I heard the clinical nature of the Dave on USB and with a lesser grade line conditioner but it's practically reference god level on src dx with sorbothanes (big difference with sorbos) and a higher grade line conditioner. The details have moved down to a much readable and palatable level. It's like when you watch bands and the first 3 songs are usually off since the soundboard guy is still massaging the levels to balance the sound. What was initially details that was moving towards you ,a bit strident and hard on the micros, it is now sensory experience giving spatial cues, air, proper reverb, sustain and decay that is very dimensional.


I tried it before, but going from the WA33 EE JPS to the headphone output on the DAVE, the difference is apparent. With the TCs, it can get a bit fatiguing. That’s why I really like my WA33 with the mDAVE. Kinda a best of both worlds


----------



## sm60

Sajid Amit said:


> Yup. Big disappointment definitely. It brought my Susvaras to life so there's that, but rather unlistenable with estats. I wanted a more energetic DAC to complement the May, but this goes beyond my expectations in that regard, lol. I can't listen to my Stax off them for too long, and the TC is far better paired with the May.
> 
> Granted, this is just a DAVE and not the Mscaler + Dave.


Trust me, as someone who listens to the M-scaled Dave through Quad electrostatics, I too find the Chord house sound to be far too clinical for my tastes. Even using Audio Research Reference  tube preamp and monoblock power amps has not ameliorated the problem in more than 2 years of listening. I finally decided to move in a different direction. I haven’t put up my Dave for sale yet, but once my new DAC gets here end of this week, I’ll most likely say adieu to Dave as well.


----------



## sm60

Ciggavelli said:


> The DAVE is clinical, which makes it pair well with tube amps in my opinion. DAVE solo can be a little bright and fatiguing until you get used to it.  Detail is important to me in a dac, more so than a warm tone. Everybody likes different things though.  But, yeah, it can understand somebody not preferring Chord’s implementation 🤷‍♂️


Count me out. I can’t stand midrange  or treble brightness in any component, whether it be a DAC, an amplifier or a loudspeaker or headphones. This is the primary reason my Sennheiser 800S lie languishing in a corner. They have  a bright unmusical sound that many audiophiles seem to like so much. If you look at their measurements on Audio Science, it’s clear they have been deliberately engineered to have a pumped up treble and a rolled off bass. Ugh. The Dave’s sound is very much the design choice of most Chord electronics, particularly their amplifiers. Detail is maximized at the expense of musicality. I’m sure lots of folks like this hyper exaggerated sound. It’s like those ultra bright moving coil speakers with metal tweeters. I usually cover my ears and run for the hills each time I’m exposed to this merciless shriek from most moving coil loudspeakers. Modern commercial pop recordings cater to this sound as well since most folks listen on cheap headphones at 100+ dB or in their car stereos.


----------



## 801evan

sm60 said:


> Count me out. I can’t stand midrange  or treble brightness in any component, whether it be a DAC, an amplifier or a loudspeaker or headphones. This is the primary reason my Sennheiser 800S lie languishing in a corner. They have  a bright unmusical sound that many audiophiles seem to like so much. If you look at their measurements on Audio Science, it’s clear they have been deliberately engineered to have a pumped up treble and a rolled off bass. Ugh. The Dave’s sound is very much the design choice of most Chord electronics, particularly their amplifiers. Detail is maximized at the expense of musicality. I’m sure lots of folks like this hyper exaggerated sound. It’s like those ultra bright moving coil speakers with metal tweeters. I usually cover my ears and run for the hills each time I’m exposed to this merciless shriek from most moving coil loudspeakers. Modern commercial pop recordings cater to this sound as well since most folks listen on cheap headphones at 100+ dB or in their car stereos.


800s are essentially a tuned headphones that requires certain parameters to perform. One can't simply pair it with the best 5 amps voted by consensus/audiophiles. It is tuned to perform with an output impedance of 40 ohms to get a more pleasant FR that can be TOTL. It also starts to lose its timing on fast amplifiers so pairing it is necessary. It might be a slew rate factor but I dunno what it is in particular.


----------



## eskamobob1 (Feb 2, 2022)

801evan said:


> 800s are essentially a tuned headphones that requires certain parameters to perform. One can't simply pair it with the best 5 amps voted by consensus/audiophiles. It is tuned to perform with an output impedance of 40 ohms to get a more pleasant FR that can be TOTL. It also starts to lose its timing on fast amplifiers so pairing it is necessary. It might be a slew rate factor but I dunno what it is in particular.


what amp have you used with a 40 ohm OI aside from maybe HDVD800? Even as someone that adores the HD800S they just arent going to be for everyone tbh


----------



## 801evan

eskamobob1 said:


> what amp have you used with a 40 ohm OI aside from maybe HDVD800? Even as someone that adores the HD800S they just arent going to be for everyone tbh


Yea the hdvd8xx line needs a line conditioner but even then it may not be for everyone. But the clue is there. So I tried it with XLR outs on the pro iDSD  variable line out which has (70-100ohms) and it's freaking good. The owner of the combo is satisfied enough with it despite my insistence to do RCA on it to get closer to the ideal tuning but as of date that rca cable hasn't been made. I experimented with it first with a cheap Logitech RCA male to 3.5mm adapter and it fixed so much issues, but of course that cheap adapter shrunk the soundstage and all... This also may led to the reason why OTL gives a very nice reference sound because it has a higher output impedance and also just delivering the right speed for the drivers.


----------



## Ciggavelli

I had the hd800 and sold it before getting my wa33. I eventually upgraded to the the wa33 EE JPS and was curious about the hd800S, and it sounds great out of the wa33. I love how the HD800 S is so neutral. It lets you hear the differences in your other components really well.


----------



## Sajid Amit

Ciggavelli said:


> I had the hd800 and sold it before getting my wa33. I go the wa33 EE JPS and was curious about the hd800S, and it sounds great out of the wa33. I love how the HD800 S is so neutral. It lets you hear the differences in your other components.


I like the HD800S as well. I find it quite neutral off most of my sources. I usually run it off DAPs like the Kann Alpha and the SP2KT around the house.


----------



## eskamobob1

Sajid Amit said:


> I like the HD800S as well. I find it quite neutral off most of my sources. I usually run it off DAPs like the Kann Alpha and the SP2KT around the house.


current drive is what truly takes HD800 to the next level 

just a shame so little current drive output amps exist. Outside of speaker stuff bakoon (21 and 01 not 13/23) and releaf are basicaly your only options (and before someone says it, no questyle is not current drive output, its current amplification that is rectified to voltage drive)


----------



## number1sixerfan (Feb 2, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> The DAVE is clinical, which makes it pair well with tube amps in my opinion. DAVE solo can be a little bright and fatiguing until you get used to it.  Detail is important to me in a dac, more so than a warm tone. Everybody likes different things though.  But, yeah, it can understand somebody not preferring Chord’s implementation 🤷‍♂️



Great point on the tube amp as well. Perhaps another big reason why I still generally love the Dave w/e-stats.

---------

All of that said, again this is not an issue for me at all with non-bright e-stats or planars/dynamics and is all about pairing. Dave is perfect for the CRBN for example, and like Sajid mentioned also great for the Susvara (both smoother and warmer headphones naturally). It's pretty easy to anticipate which headphones it will pair best with simply by the tonality/signature of the headphones. I think it's ok to admit that instead of acting as if people don't value speed, detail, etc.

Also, the Mscaler doesn't change the tone of the music at all. I think that would be a flawed design based on Chord's notoriety of transparency. But it does enhance the separation and layering, which with e-stats' already insane ability in that regard just drives things into a nirvana overload, which is another huge sticking point for me.


----------



## 801evan

eskamobob1 said:


> current drive is what truly takes HD800 to the next level
> 
> just a shame so little current drive output amps exist. Outside of speaker stuff bakoon (21 and 01 not 13/23) and releaf are basicaly your only options (and before someone says it, no questyle is not current drive output, its current amplification that is rectified to voltage drive)


I've paired the 800s with the Bakoon HPA-01 and it just led me to ear trauma. It WILL give good bass quantity but it's like the bass in amateur car audio. You will hear this punchy bass but it's so elevated that it's comical. Zero deep bass extension. I've tried the Releaf and I was super underwhelmed.


----------



## eskamobob1

801evan said:


> It WILL give good bass quantity but it's like the bass in amateur car audio.


its not about the bass for me. its about the layering and staging. it takes the 800 from a 2d sphere to an actually properly layered and seperated can. Also, just FWIW, the 01 is the worst current drive amp from a technicality stand point. 01M is a tier higher and 21 is at leat one or two higher than 01M. Releaf E3 and E5 are also supose to be a step up from there with a more linear signature but I am yet to hear them myself unfortunately.


----------



## 801evan

Between the questyle, Feliks Elise, Releaf e3 (on Hugo tt 1), bakoon, (on Hugo 2),  pro iDSD line out and hdvd8xx, me doing variable line out on the pro iDSD gave the 800s a sound that is in line with other totl multi kilo tier cans.


----------



## eskamobob1

801evan said:


> Between the questyle, Feliks Elise, Releaf e3 (on Hugo tt 1), bakoon, (on Hugo 2),  pro iDSD line out and hdvd8xx, me doing variable line out on the pro iDSD gave the 800s a sound that is in line with other totl multi kilo tier cans.


Well im glad you enjoyed it


----------



## 801evan

Mostly an exercise in education and understanding how to get the most out of it and how that would sound like.


----------



## Sampajanna

Synergy is always most important in everything. This is why reviews of products as stand alone, i.e. insert here in the chain and this is what it does, can potentially be misleading. It is also why saying “I didn’t like X” should really be “I didnt like X with these other components and cables.” My speakers, for example, are smooth no matter what detail you add. They are the most magical speakers imho for this glory. So, the more detail and separation I throw at them, the better. For that reason, Dave is perfect in my system. Also, one thing i will mention having owned Chord amps in the past (not now), is that the new Ultima series are less clinical and more balanced. All in all, though, synergy, synergy and synergy is the name of the game. The same is true w headphones as well. My utopias used to fatigue me. I sold them for that reason. Then I heard them with the Cayin HA-300 at a dealer and wowza. I now have that combo and can listen all day and all night. Perfect match made in heaven. Sometimes even the same model when upgraded can lose this magic. I had a Vincent 237 amp in my office with LS50s and the match was perfect. I borrowed the MK2 version of this amazing bang for buck amp and it wasn’t bad, but didnt have anywhere near the magic. When I researched, I found they had changed the tube configuration and many capacitors etc. Never underestimate synergy…..


----------



## 801evan

"Synergy" can be a catch-all term that is ambiguous at what steps to take moving forward. You can check my LCD 5 review which gives an example where speed seems to be what to look into in terms of matching and improved timing. All units are powered by the same and similar Ifi elite so it takes away the psu factor introducing sonic changes and bringing confusion to what is influencing what. With 7 to 10 combinations across 3 units and hearing the difference on how it is driving the LCD 5, I seemed to have isolated that 'synergy' aspect, and in this case it is the speed of the amp driving the HP diaphragm just fast enough for the diaphragm to keep up. That's my theory at least. 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audeze-lcd-5-review-measurements-interview.959808/post-16790071

I've tried to make my chain as transparent as possible where it's not the other stuff that needs a 'synergy' factor so it now just comes down to amp and transducer speed pairing. 

This may help explain why the mk2 of the Vincent amp didn't work out too well with the Utopia since usually updated models would be faster and it happens to be too fast for the Utopia driver to keep up and give good timing.


----------



## Jawed

Rob Watts said:


> No it's actually a useless way of doing it, as the ADC noise floor modulation is much bigger than my DACs. The only way of overcoming the ADC issue is to use a notch filter, and feed the ADC with just the residual noise, so the ADC just measures the distortion and noise, not the actual signal. The APx555 has a great way of doing this - one ADC covers the fundamental sine wave signal, another looks at the notched signal (it's notched via a low distortion analogue notch filter). Then the APx555 stitches the two results together in the digital domain. If the analogue notch filter is perfect, then ADC noise floor modulation is eliminated.
> 
> The downside to this is that only a single notch is employed, so you can only use a single tone sine wave input.


Presumably the ADC noise floor modulation problem would disappear with Davina?


----------



## stemiki

Sajid Amit said:


> Well, I wanted to hold on to it. But I just don't like it. It's a clear decision for me. I probably liked it less on day 2 and today is day 3.
> 
> The differences in presentation between a May and a Dave is so significant, that I have realized I should stick to R2R in the future. I do want a second DAC to change up flavors. I have heard the T-Plus and it was nice but needed to try the Dave at home.
> 
> But I can respect it if you like it. The bass on the Dave is spectacular. As are the details.


I understand. Many times the synergies between various components do not bring a satisfactory result. I'm sorry!


----------



## haweckO

guys, I am considering to sell my TT2 and purchase brand new Dave, but I was thinking if Chord could release new flagship DAC anytime soon.
do you hear any rumors about it, please?


----------



## eskamobob1

haweckO said:


> guys, I am considering to sell my TT2 and purchase brand new Dave, but I was thinking if Chord could release new flagship DAC anytime soon.
> do you hear any rumors about it, please?


There is lots of speculation but nothing concrete and not even my go to dealers have heard anything so I think you are safe


----------



## Triode User

Sajid Amit said:


> Well, I wanted to hold on to it. But I just don't like it. It's a clear decision for me. I probably liked it less on day 2 and today is day 3.
> 
> The differences in presentation between a May and a Dave is so significant, that I have realized I should stick to R2R in the future. I do want a second DAC to change up flavors. I have heard the T-Plus and it was nice but needed to try the Dave at home.
> 
> But I can respect it if you like it. The bass on the Dave is spectacular. As are the details.


 We are all allowed to buy and like what pleases us as individuals but for me, having owned a Holo May and compared it side by side with a Qutest, TT2 and Dave (both with and without the Mscaler) it was my decision that all three of the Chord DACs outclassed the May. This was with extended listening over a period of 3 weeks and unfortunately at no time during that was there any point where the May drew ahead. It was a clear decision for me and I did not want to keep the May, no matter what price it was. I was actually hoping it would replace the Qutest but that was not to be.

I have heard other R2R DACs in my system, some of them not too expensive such as the Ares 2 and others about the same price as the Dave but to my ears they all share similar aspects of sound quality and it is not one that I find very musical or accurate. A friend has reviewed and then bought a T Plus and he says he likes it very much (I guessed he does having bought it). The plan is for him to bring it over to me sometime over the next few weeks so I can hear it in my system and I guess that will be quite interesting.

I’m sorry that the Dave does not fit your tastes but this hobby is never a one solution fits all game. I was lucky and I sold on the May without losing money and I wish you well with your sale of the Dave and hope that you have a similar result.


----------



## 801evan

Hans is lucky to spend good time on DAC he reviews. Unrushed and chose wisely.


----------



## eskamobob1

Triode User said:


> I’m sorry that the Dave does not fit your tastes but this hobby is never a one solution fits all game. I was lucky and I sold on the May without losing money and I wish you well with your sale of the Dave and hope that you have a similar result.



This is the real truth here. I like some real stank to be put on my music. Its what gets my foot thumping and my mood lifted. I am going to like _extremely_ different gear than someone who prefers a more classically flat and clear presentation. That doesn't mean either of our gear is bad. It just means we don't like what the other does. Simple as that.


----------



## eskamobob1

801evan said:


> Hans is lucky to spend good time on DAC he reviews. Unrushed and chose wisely.


The same can be said about heaps of reviewers. That doesn't stop them from basically being split down the middle on preference of may vs Dave.


----------



## stemiki

I too have decided to replace DAVE. 

When DAVE2 is out! 

And I look forward to Choral M Scaler .


----------



## jlbrach

I suspect it will be a long time before the dave itself will be replaced...we might see several iterations of the m-scaler before we see a new dave


----------



## stemiki

Better this way, in the meantime I'm deciding which top amplifier to buy..


----------



## Triode User

stemiki said:


> I too have decided to replace DAVE.
> 
> When DAVE2 is out!
> 
> And I look forward to Choral M Scaler .


In which case in that eventuality I too will replace Dave but until then I will patiently await the Choral NScaler. 👍


----------



## MvRBE10

He few weeks ago i seen a setup from a guy with two daves looked like he used one dave for each channel. Somebody ever tried that. Same as dual amp setup. I did not found it so odd idea


----------



## 801evan

MvRBE10 said:


> He few weeks ago i seen a setup from a guy with two daves looked like he used one dave for each channel. Somebody ever tried that. Same as dual amp setup. I did not found it so odd idea


Interesting but odd, it's not like a dual DAC device approach is untaxing a single DAC device like a dual dac chip design or dual mono amplification does. If the design is where you can send mono channel spdif to each dac device, then that may have a theoritical edge. 🤔


----------



## 801evan

Users might be more upset to see a Dave 2 when the Dave 1's 4 bnc input hasn't been exploited yet? 🤔


----------



## Rob Watts

Jawed said:


> Presumably the ADC noise floor modulation problem would disappear with Davina?


Absolutely.


----------



## Roasty

I borrowed a Dave again. 
does anyone here use USB into the Dave as primary input? or is everyone on the dual BNCs?


----------



## DJJEZ

Roasty said:


> I borrowed a Dave again.
> does anyone here use USB into the Dave as primary input? or is everyone on the dual BNCs?


My sotm sms 200 ultra neo goes into the -mscaler then dual bnc into dave. Are you able to borrow an m-Scaler as well?


----------



## marcmccalmont

Roasty said:


> I borrowed a Dave again.
> does anyone here use USB into the Dave as primary input? or is everyone on the dual BNCs?


I’ve tried almost all input and output combinations in my system I keep coming back to spdif optical (lifatec tos cable) Dave improves with galvanic isolation and lots of clip on ferrites over the power cord any coax cables and the analog output cables. Cheap but effective


----------



## Slim1970

DJJEZ said:


> My sotm sms 200 ultra neo goes into the -mscaler then dual bnc into dave. Are you able to borrow an m-Scaler as well?


How's the Holo May sounding in comparison to the Dave so far?


----------



## Roasty

DJJEZ said:


> My sotm sms 200 ultra neo goes into the -mscaler then dual bnc into dave. Are you able to borrow an m-Scaler as well?



didn't get to borrow the mscaler this time round. just a stop gap measure as I lent my May to a friend for a while.


----------



## 801evan

marcmccalmont said:


> I’ve tried almost all input and output combinations in my system I keep coming back to spdif optical (lifatec tos cable) Dave improves with galvanic isolation and lots of clip on ferrites over the power cord any coax cables and the analog output cables. Cheap but effective


Good ears. I also find my cdt + ocxo with lifatec so good on the Dave. USB is quite inferior on all chord DACs.


----------



## marcmccalmont

801evan said:


> Good ears. I also find my cdt + ocxo with lifatec so good on the Dave. USB is quite inferior on all chord DACs.


It’s so good that I prefer a simple setup without the mscaler! Let Dave do the upscaling


----------



## MvRBE10

marcmccalmont said:


> I’ve tried almost all input and output combinations in my system I keep coming back to spdif optical (lifatec tos cable) Dave improves with galvanic isolation and lots of clip on ferrites over the power cord any coax cables and the analog output cables. Cheap but effective


I am also going optical into my mscaler but also did that on tt2 seems to sound always best. And then with to waves to dave. Did some 1:1 with usb but that really makes the highs edgy and fatiguing


----------



## Jawed

KabelDirekt 6m optical streaming 192KHz from Qobuz works flawlessly here (into M Scaler).


----------



## Darkliner

Roasty said:


> I borrowed a Dave again.
> does anyone here use USB into the Dave as primary input? or is everyone on the dual BNCs?


I use usb into Dave as primary input.  But I use a innous phoenix reclocker before that.


----------



## DJJEZ

Slim1970 said:


> How's the Holo May sounding in comparison to the Dave so far?


It's seriously impressive. Give me more time and i will do a detailed comparison


----------



## DJJEZ

Roasty said:


> I borrowed a Dave again.
> does anyone here use USB into the Dave as primary input? or is everyone on the dual BNCs?


what do you think of it?


----------



## Roasty

DJJEZ said:


> what do you think of it?



I'm not entirely sure if I'm getting the whole/proper Dave experience.. which is why I asked the question on USB input. unfortunately, I don't have the mscaler this time round, nor do I have a source with toslink/optical coax.

I'll have some time over the weekend to move components and cables around, but to be completely honest, I'm not going to try too hard to "make this work" as i only borrowed it so I can have a dac for my lounge setup (moved the Rockna into the study, after lending out the May).

I don't want to ruffle any feathers since this is the Dave thread, but I can see why people like it, but at the same time, also why some people don't.


----------



## GryphonGuy

Roasty said:


> I borrowed a Dave again.
> does anyone here use USB into the Dave as primary input? or is everyone on the dual BNCs?



Once you add an SRC-DX USB to DX adapter (USB to dual BNC), you'll wonder why you ever listened to the USB input. Using the same USB cable and port on the PC, the difference for me is night and day, even on the 4FS material (single BNC mode) but the 16FS material (Dual BNC) is mind-blowingly great. When DAVE switches to the 705.6kHz DX mode, I swear there is magic that happens inside DAVE (I speak romantically here).

Just for reference, my DAVE, in comparison between straight USB input and DX via SRC-DX adapter, the USB sounds fuzzy, loosely defined, and slightly edgy in the top end relatively speaking. The SRC-DX on the otherhand has a blacker background, bigger soundstage, more focused soundstage, pristinely pure but natural sounding top-end. The DAVE's ability to reproduce accurate sounding timbre of instruments is enhanced because the low-level signals in the top-end are where finesse happens for me. A tiny triangle hit that is barely audible but very clear against a "black" background of silence can thrill me.

So I am a convert. Native USB input port is now dead to me on my DAVE. That's a change in me after about 6 years of happy DAVE ownership.

Regards
GG


----------



## marcmccalmont

Has anyone auditioned the Playback Designs MPD-8?

https://www.monoandstereo.com/2019/04/playback-designs-mpd-8-dream-dac-review.html?m=1


----------



## 801evan (Feb 3, 2022)

GryphonGuy said:


> Once you add an SRC-DX USB to DX adapter (USB to dual BNC), you'll wonder why you ever listened to the USB input. Using the same USB cable and port on the PC, the difference for me is night and day, even on the 4FS material (single BNC mode) but the 16FS material (Dual BNC) is mind-blowingly great. When DAVE switches to the 705.6kHz DX mode, I swear there is magic that happens inside DAVE (I speak romantically here).
> 
> Just for reference, my DAVE, in comparison between straight USB input and DX via SRC-DX adapter, the USB sounds fuzzy, loosely defined, and slightly edgy in the top end relatively speaking. The SRC-DX on the otherhand has a blacker background, bigger soundstage, more focused soundstage, pristinely pure but natural sounding top-end. The DAVE's ability to reproduce accurate sounding timbre of instruments is enhanced because the low-level signals in the top-end are where finesse happens for me. A tiny triangle hit that is barely audible but very clear against a "black" background of silence can thrill me.
> 
> ...


That is correct ...after reading the last couple pages here, it reminded me how I even forgot to keep track of the 'high energy and detailed upper mids' on the Dave at first listen as i moved on to the src dx route.

I was underwhelmed with Dave on USB and felt happy coz I saved some money and it was exactly how I heard it in a store demo years back. I have observed and would agree to the impressions of other people on what seems to be the unique quality of the Dave that is described as 'more detail than usual'. Basically, too much going on on the upper mids that it lost balance. But after doing src dx and cdt via toslink, a lot of that was gone and proper balance was back. It is here that after a proper warm up of at least 24 hours that it really starts to peel away from the other DACs.

Also the Dave has a lot of open ports in the back. Cover them up and enjoy less interference.

The upcoming ifi zen one sig would be a good alternative to the src dx because it will probably have a better USB input implementation then you can do coax out. I personally prefer the original frequency sampling rate than oversampling to the Dave due to my multi stage filtering. Oversampling sounds more flat and timbre is shifted.


----------



## Sampajanna

What did you cover the back ports with?


----------



## 801evan

Sampajanna said:


> What did you cover the back ports with?


----------



## Sampajanna

Thanks. That is interesting. Did you make those or buy them?


----------



## 801evan

It's audioquest rca caps and xlr caps is from AliExpress, gold is better performance. Bnc to rca adapter is from AliExpress

For the USB port do electrical tape over copper tape over electrical tape over copper tape over electrical tape.


----------



## Roasty (Feb 4, 2022)

hooked up the Dave via aes/ebu cable from a Singxer su-6 ddc.

well, the aes connection is a fair bit nicer to my ears than USB. low end is stronger and the edginess/grain and harshness I heard with the highs has gone away.

*edit wow the bass is bloody punchy! again, much nicer top end.


----------



## Jawed

Roasty said:


> hooked up the Dave via aes/ebu cable from a Singxer su-6 ddc.
> 
> well, the aes connection is a fair bit nicer to my ears than USB. low end is stronger and the edginess/grain and harshness I heard with the highs has gone away.
> 
> *edit wow the bass is bloody punchy! again, much nicer top end.


Hmm, you're one of those very rare people who's tried AES on DAVE.

AES always seemed to be a logical solution to the RF noise related sound quality problems of BNC (or USB), since common-mode noise is the primary sickness that afflicts electrical digital inputs. AES should genuinely isolate DAVE from a lot of common-mode RF noise.

I think it's quite exciting to find someone who hears a substantial benefit here.


----------



## Roasty

Jawed said:


> Hmm, you're one of those very rare people who's tried AES on DAVE.
> 
> AES always seemed to be a logical solution to the RF noise related sound quality problems of BNC (or USB), since common-mode noise is the primary sickness that afflicts electrical digital inputs. AES should genuinely isolate DAVE from a lot of common-mode RF noise.
> 
> I think it's quite exciting to find someone who hears a substantial benefit here.



Oh I didn't know it that. thanks for the info! I can only use either usb or aes right now.. just glad I decided to try aes. 

I'm using a synergistic research lvl 2 aes/ebu cord. Dave does sound much better with aes. I would have liked to use my Bibacord AES cable but it is being sent back for an upgrade. 

I just checked the Dave crossfeed and it is on setting 3. tried 0 and the bass impact is substantially less. seems airier up top with 0 though, but the relative lack of low end made me swap back to 3 quite fast.


----------



## Jawed

Roasty said:


> Oh I didn't know it that. thanks for the info! I can only use either usb or aes right now.. just glad I decided to try aes.
> 
> I'm using a synergistic research lvl 2 aes/ebu cord. Dave does sound much better with aes. I would have liked to use my Bibacord AES cable but it is being sent back for an upgrade.
> 
> I just checked the Dave crossfeed and it is on setting 3. tried 0 and the bass impact is substantially less. seems airier up top with 0 though, but the relative lack of low end made me swap back to 3 quite fast.


Your description of the sound of Crossfeed agrees with mine, though I have the opposite preference.


----------



## TheAttorney

Jawed said:


> Hmm, you're one of those very rare people who's tried AES on DAVE.


I'm using AES because that's the best output from my Grimm MU1 server.
Dave easily handles 192kHz at this input (double the conservative spec) and sounds great. But the quality of the AES cable greatly influences SQ, as it did when I used BNC or USB in the past. It would save me a lot of money if this wasn't so.



Roasty said:


> I just checked the Dave crossfeed and it is on setting 3. tried 0 and the bass impact is substantially less. seems airier up top with 0 though, but the relative lack of low end made me swap back to 3 quite fast.


Yes, you get a bass boost of almost 2dB at CF=3, but the primary benefit should be a more realistic soundstage, which is more obvious with headphones with a wide soundstage, as in my HEKse. I do feel you lose a bit of transparency though with CF (as with any DSP) so that may explain the slight loss of airiness. Most choices have pros and cons and on this occasion I think the pros outweigh the cons. I find CF=2 gives a better balance for my tastes, apart from classical music where the correct soundstage seems to be more important.


----------



## rgs9200m (Feb 6, 2022)

When using my DAVE via its own amplifier with Jriver on Windows for a music source, is there any way to coax some finer volume level adjustments into the system?
I use both Jriver's internal volume control along with Dave's volume control.

I tend to set the Dave a little above my preferred listening level with the Jriver volume at 100%, then move the Jriver control down step or 2. But even the Jriver steps (of 0.5 dB each) are a little too much for me.

Would I be better off using a higher Dave initial level?
Is there any finer-adjustment Windows volume control app?
Does any Jriver alternative have a finer volume control?

Some extra info:

I rarely use Jriver EQ or any other Jriver DSP things. I keep the DSP system off mostly. It sounds better to me like this, especially in the bass.

I am also using an Mscaler (with just the stock Bnc cables for now; I don't think this affects volume granularity, but it was just a thought).

Headphones in main use: Focal Utopia, Meze Empyrean, ZMF Verite Closed, Sony Z1R, Audeze LCD4. Grado PS2000e.

Other things: Audioquest Diamond USB cable (a few years old), Telwire C004 power cord, also a few years old. (These cables sound good to me after some experimentation.)

The sound quality I am getting is great for me, I just would like to get a finer volume level adjustment if possible.

Thank you for any advice or for any similar experience you have in this area..


----------



## Reactcore

Its byebye Qutest..Hello Dave! today i joined the elite.. 😲👂 i can't believe this comin from my HD800's.. Simply stunning.. no sleep for me tonight


----------



## ufospls2

Reactcore said:


> Its byebye Qutest..Hello Dave! today i joined the elite.. 😲👂 i can't believe this comin from my HD800's.. Simply stunning.. no sleep for me tonight


Enjoy! See you for your next post of enjoyment at 5:00AM. lol.


----------



## Sampajanna

The new podcast with Darko and Rob Watts is worth a listen. Such a genius! Learn a lot every time I hear him (interview and music through my Dave). So grateful! He also hints at some amazing new research—not anything specifically but he alludes to benefits we may see some day! I loved it. Best bow, Rob.


----------



## alekc

Sampajanna said:


> The new podcast with Darko and Rob Watts is worth a listen. Such a genius! Learn a lot every time I hear him (interview and music through my Dave). So grateful! He also hints at some amazing new research—not anything specifically but he alludes to benefits we may see some day! I loved it. Best bow, Rob.


Indeed. I really like reading and listening to Rob Watts. It is great that he takes his time to share all those details and know-how with us. The podcast would have been even better IMHO if only Rob Watts would do the talking. Darko ignorance (like in EQ and DSP areas for example) is hard to bear, especially when he is talking with a real engineer and this comes from a guy who tells you his job is to peak apart all the differences in sound and tell you whats best for your ears. The only reason I've listen to podcast was Rob Watts in the very first place. I've stopped watching/reading/listening Darko content after his arguments about coffee and mineral water. The life is much more complex than 2 bottles of mineral water and coffee shop around the corner.


----------



## NYanakiev

I have a quick question about ethernet cables as I saw this mentioned earlier on.

My chain is as follows:
Sonore opticalRendu+opticalModule Deluxe->Audiowise SRC-DX->1X WAVE STORM->Chord M Scaler->2X WAVE STORM->Chord DAVE

The ethernet cable currently goes from the router through the living room and into the Optical Rendu. I am planning on replacing that with an ethernet cable that takes a very indirect path via the curves of the ceiling around my flat. Total cable length needs to be around 25 metres- will this lead to any signal deterioration at all?


----------



## Progisus

NYanakiev said:


> I have a quick question about ethernet cables as I saw this mentioned earlier on.
> 
> My chain is as follows:
> Sonore opticalRendu+opticalModule Deluxe->Audiowise SRC-DX->1X WAVE STORM->Chord M Scaler->2X WAVE STORM->Chord DAVE
> ...


That should not be a problem. Did you consider fibre?


----------



## NYanakiev

Progisus said:


> That should not be a problem. Did you consider fibre?


Nope. Looks quite a bit less flexible than the ethernet cable I got.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

Fiber optic cable should be smaller/narrower and much more flexible than ethernet.


----------



## zen87192

Is it OK to drive Headphones from the Balanced out of the DAVE? I ask to see if there is any benefit being increased Bass perhaps?


----------



## Ciggavelli

zen87192 said:


> Is it OK to drive Headphones from the Balanced out of the DAVE? I ask to see if there is any benefit being increased Bass perhaps?


It’s “fake” balanced just so people with XLR ICs can use the DAVE. The RCA and XLR are basically the same thing.  The XLRs aren’t “true” balanced XLR outputs. There’s a Rob post somewhere here about that


----------



## marcmccalmont

zen87192 said:


> Is it OK to drive Headphones from the Balanced out of the DAVE? I ask to see if there is any benefit being increased Bass perhaps?


Not as much current (drive) capability with the balanced output I’ve tried it, single ended is much better


----------



## jlbrach

Ciggavelli said:


> It’s “fake” balanced just so people with XLR ICs can use the DAVE. The RCA and XLR are basically the same thing.  The XLRs aren’t “true” balanced XLR outputs. There’s a Rob post somewhere here about that


it is a bit louder out of the dave xlr....at least to my ears


----------



## nwavesailor

jlbrach said:


> it is a bit louder out of the dave xlr....at least to my ears


Is this using the 2, 3 pin male XLR's to a 4 pin female XLR adapter like some use on the TT2?


----------



## marcmccalmont (Feb 10, 2022)

jlbrach said:


> it is a bit louder out of the dave xlr....at least to my ears


The rear outputs and the headphone 1/4” front jack have independent volume settings, the single ended outputs front or rear can deliver more power than the balanced xlr rear outputs


----------



## DJJEZ

zen87192 said:


> Is it OK to drive Headphones from the Balanced out of the DAVE? I ask to see if there is any benefit being increased Bass perhaps?


No you can't do it on the DAVE. Only the TT2 can you use the rear XLR'r for headphones


----------



## nwavesailor

DJJEZ said:


> No you can't do it on the DAVE. Only the TT2 can you use the rear XLR'r for headphones


Very good! I guess I'll sell my Norne XLR adapter for the TT2.


----------



## chesebert

marcmccalmont said:


> Has anyone auditioned the Playback Designs MPD-8?
> 
> https://www.monoandstereo.com/2019/04/playback-designs-mpd-8-dream-dac-review.html?m=1


Playback Designs is solid. Similar sound signature as EMM Labs (former colleagues). Both brands sound more natural and analog to me than dCS, Esoteric and BAD.


----------



## marcmccalmont

chesebert said:


> Playback Designs is solid. Similar sound signature as EMM Labs (former colleagues). Both brands sound more natural and analog to me than dCS, Esoteric and BAD.


Any comparison to Dave or Dave + arc6?


----------



## chesebert (Feb 10, 2022)

marcmccalmont said:


> Any comparison to Dave or Dave + arc6?


No experience with Dave. Sorry. 

But Emm Labs up samples to 16xDSD and PD up samples to 8x DSD, which means you don’t need an external upscaler with those dacs.


----------



## Lucky87 (Feb 10, 2022)

Deleted for respect to Chord and this thread


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## chesebert

Lucky87 said:


> Deleted for respect to Chord and this thread


Lol. Now I am curious of what you have deleted.


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## MvRBE10

I have more bass and slam and bass texture with dave + farad than without. It transforms dave alot.


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## marcmccalmont

chesebert said:


> No experience with Dave. Sorry.
> 
> But Emm Labs up samples to 16xDSD and PD up samples to 8x DSD, which means you don’t need an external upscaler with those dacs.


Dave upscales internally too! The Mscaler uses a higher tap filter and offloads Daves upscaling duties so its  processing power is not taxed, but the Mscaler introduces its set of problems and expense.


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## zen87192

MvRBE10 said:


> I have more bass and slam and bass texture with dave + farad than without. It transforms dave alot.


Is that with the Super 3? Can you advise me of what's needed to be purchased to use with the DAVE? Also, are you using any of those special Power Leads offered?


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## MvRBE10

zen87192 said:


> Is that with the Super 3? Can you advise me of what's needed to be purchased to use with the DAVE? Also, are you using any of those special Power Leads offered?


Farad has a set now only with the silver dc cables they work best. It also includes a just screw in monitorprint with silver shielded dc cables internaly with gold plates print connector to the dave pcb. The power supplies are the stock ones available on the website but can be upgrated with fuses and rodium inlet. The ac cable is up to you or also can be supplied. I made a set furutechs with one ac plug to three ac inlets. Saves a few spaces. These furutechs dont brake the bank and have proven to have the best synergy with the farads. 60,- per meter and not so expensive connectors of furutech. I believe inwas 350,- for all 4 lps’s (incl the mscaler)


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## MvRBE10

zen87192 said:


> Is that with the Super 3? Can you advise me of what's needed to be purchased to use with the DAVE? Also, are you using any of those special Power Leads offered?


Pictures speak 1000 words


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## MvRBE10 (Feb 11, 2022)

After making the pictures i removed all the dust… mannn😞

Have you got the mscaler?

I believe the complete set ex vat is 2500,- here below farads websitetext and statement ;

_Thanks for your interest! We have made a special power supply upgrade for the Chord Dave based on our Farad Super3 power supplies. These are available in +5V, +15V and for the -15V the Dave also uses we specially developed the first ever negative regulated supercap supply making use of the Super3 technology.



The advantage of three single supplies is that it gives much better sound quality against a one box solution, because the fuse and power cables are splitted and all supplies are fully separated, so no interactions on each other. We found this to be quite important for best sound. Also it gives more flexibility towards future upgrades (for example with the upcoming Farad Super10 supply). And last sound for digital and analog can be tuned with the individual power cables and fuses, so this gives more possibilities for tuning the final sound even better.



We have designed a special power monitoring PCB which fits exactly in the spot where the original Dave SMPS supply is now. This monitor takes care the Chord only will get powered up when all three voltages are present and within parameters. This will protect the Dave during start-up and from any anomalies with the incoming power when operating. Connected to this monitor there are three 100cm Farad Level 2 silver wires for the three power supply units, and at the other side a connector with shielded cables and gold plated contacts which fits the Dave power connector inside.



We provide a special backplate which fits exactly in the slot where the AC inlet is originally. You only need to unscrew the top plate, remove the original AC inlet and SMPS power supply en slide in the assembly we provide. Close the top plate again and you are ready to play. No soldering. 



Prices for this setup are:_


_Cable assembly with 100cm Farad Level 2 silver cables, custom backplate and the power monitor: 1000 euro_
_3x (+5V, +15V, -15V) Farad Super3 basic version: 1516 euro_
_3x (+5V, +15V, -15V) Farad Super3 full upgraded (SR Purple fuses, Furutech Rhodium AC inlet) versions: 2158 euro_
_The Super3 supplies are available in AC voltage ranges 100Vac, 110-120Vac, 220-230Vac factory set. Prices are ex VAT, FedEx courier shipping worldwide is free with all orders in the Farad web shop.



If you want to be kept updated, please follow us on Facebook or Instagram. We also can put you on a mailing list and let you know as soon as we have more to tell about it. We expect to be able to ship the upgrade sets in February. _

--
Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Cordialement,
Mattijs de Vries, Farad power supplies
 
www.Faradpowersupplies.com
Utrechtsestraatweg 198
3911TX Rhenen (UT)
The Netherlands


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## marcmccalmont (Feb 11, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> After making the pictures i removed all the dust… mannn😞
> 
> Have you got the mscaler?
> 
> ...


Any plans on a single +_ 15vdc power supply using one center taped transformer? Should be an improvement over 2 individual  +15v and -15v supplies
BTW I’m using a super 3 on my ProJect CD Box RS transport with great results


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## edwardsean

MvRBE10 said:


> _Cable assembly with 100cm Farad Level 2 silver cables, custom backplate and the power monitor: 1000 euro_
> _3x (+5V, +15V, -15V) Farad Super3 basic version: 1516 euro_
> _3x (+5V, +15V, -15V) Farad Super3 full upgraded (SR Purple fuses, Furutech Rhodium AC inlet) versions: 2158 euro_


When you first starting posting about this setup, it sounded a bit unruly, but your setup is really clever and beautiful. 

it's interesting that Mattijs is offering the connection assembly as its own package. I wonder if the power monitor board relies on his proprietary monitoring tech built into the Super3 or if its just reading voltage/current. If it's the latter this could open doors to broad possibilities. 

For those with the skill and inclination, you could experiment with different configurations of power supplies. For instance, someone could get a pair Super 3s for the -/+ 15V rails and mate it with an entirely different power supply for the 5V rail. The Farad has a rich, thick sound that would work wonderfully on the analog rails, but you could opt for something with more speed for the digital rail like the hybrid Ferrum Hypsos.


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## MvRBE10 (Feb 11, 2022)

marcmccalmont said:


> Any plans on a single +_ 15vdc power supply using one center taped transformer? Should be an improvement over 2 individual  +15v and -15v supplies
> BTW I’m using a super 3 on my ProJect CD Box RS transport with great results


No thats really bad for audio.. seperate transformers is the key for good sound. Cross contermentation and handling different currents on the same transformer is really not the way to go.


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## MvRBE10 (Feb 11, 2022)

edwardsean said:


> When you first starting posting about this setup, it sounded a bit unruly, but your setup is really clever and beautiful.
> 
> it's interesting that Mattijs is offering the connection assembly as its own package. I wonder if the power monitor board relies on his proprietary monitoring tech built into the Super3 or if its just reading voltage/current. If it's the latter this could open doors to broad possibilities.
> 
> For those with the skill and inclination, you could experiment with different configurations of power supplies. For instance, someone could get a pair Super 3s for the -/+ 15V rails and mate it with an entirely different power supply for the 5V rail. The Farad has a rich, thick sound that would work wonderfully on the analog rails, but you could opt for something with more speed for the digital rail like the hybrid Ferrum Hypsos.


You are correct. Its just reading and letting through. You can put any powersupply behind it. Freedom is key. No pressure of buying explesit his thing. Apple vs open source and android eg. 

To be honest mattijs is really a tech nerd and good solutions are in his mind always above any other thought. If its not good he will not release it.


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## edwardsean

MvRBE10 said:


> You are correct. Its just reading and letting through. You can put any powersupply behind it. Freedom is key. No pressure of buying explesit his thing. Apple vs open source and android eg.
> 
> To be honest mattijs is really a tech nerd and good solutions are in his mind always above any other thought. If its not good he will not release it.


I'm a big fan of Mattijs myself! I wanted to upgrade the output caps for the Super3. He was completely enthusiastic and willing to dialogue intensively. I went through a bunch of different options, but he turned me on to the Wima film caps, and long story short, it wound up in the updated Super3s. 

In the process I blew out the regulator chip (the danger of working with supercaps that don't discharge right away). It was really deflating, but he diagnosed the problem from half way around the world. I overnighted the IC from Mouser, and I was back up and running the next day! 

I'm really excited to see how this progresses even further with the upcoming Super10 and other projects he has in the works. I wonder if it would be helpful to some if he would offer a complete unit for the Dave in some form, or maybe package everything together in a kit. That way less experienced users could get in on upgrading the Dave's power supply. 

The impact of better quality power on the Dave is transformative. Nick from Wave HF likened the Dave + SJ DC4 to a Dave2. I agree; it's at that level of upgrade. I've heard that a side by side comparison of the DC4 and Farad solution is loosely in the works. If and when the happens, I'm so curious to hear the impressions!


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## MvRBE10 (Feb 11, 2022)

They already tested the new super10 against the dc4 a customer of him has it and it just blew it away on every front (on his setup). I confirmed with mattijs if i could make such a statement but i can. The super10 is a powersupply from another league but still cheaper than the acr6 setup so if the money is there i will in future eventually goto the super10. But the great thing is the super3 is already for its money at the top. And when upgrading you are not depended of the dave community the super3 can be sold to anyone or shift them to the router or something else. I like this way of investing. And indeed mattijs is thinking in solving and learning and changing it for the better. I myself am engineer in electronics and like this kind of mindset.


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## griff500 (Feb 11, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> After making the pictures i removed all the dust… mannn😞
> 
> Have you got the mscaler?
> 
> ...


Very interested to hear more about this and comparisons with Sean Jacobs' products.


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## chesebert (Feb 11, 2022)

Boy I think you guys are hurting Chord’s feelings 🤣. Properly designed SMPS should have less and not more noise than linear PS.

Perhaps Chord should contract the SMPS design to AMR/ifi. Their cheap SMPS is close to a battery-level performance in terms of DC noise.


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## zen87192

I’ve visited the Farad site after reading a lot of threads recommending the Super 3. Thing is, the Dave isn’t even mentioned on the Confirmed Loads page…. So… is my build correct please? Super 3, 220-240 Vac, Voltage = 15?, 3A or 1.5A?, Connector = 5.5/2.5? Can Anyone recommend the Furutech Rhodium AC Inlet, DC Power Cable Upgrade Level 2 and AC Power Cable?


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## MvRBE10

No please read the copy i pasted 3 threads ago! 15v -15v and +5v. The load of the dave is so minimal that the farad superseeds it 3x on the most +15 i believe


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## MvRBE10

chesebert said:


> Boy I think you guys are hurting Chord’s feelings 🤣. Properly designed SMPS should have less and not more noise than linear PS.


Its proved over and over again also in this community that smps do suck whatever they say. And its on all fronts proven otherwise. Smps has noise period. That chapter is really closed


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## chesebert (Feb 11, 2022)

I point you to this thread for actual testing data. https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/31119-power-supply-8-group-test-lps-and-smps/

I can tell you most of the TOTL dac makes have now moved to SMPS, if that’s any indication of SMPS performance for digital components.


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## Triode User

edwardsean said:


> The impact of better quality power on the Dave is transformative. Nick from Wave HF likened the Dave + SJ DC4 to a Dave2. I agree; it's at that level of upgrade. I've heard that a side by side comparison of the DC4 and Farad solution is loosely in the works. If and when the happens, I'm so curious to hear the impressions!


Indeed I did say that about the DC4 and the Dave. . . . . and then the even better ARC6 version came along and that moved the goal posts some way beyond a DC4.

It would be really good to have an ARC6 Dave and a Farad Dave side by side in the same system and hear both. I think it would need both versions of a converted Dave to be available for proper comparison rather than rely on audio memory. When I have compared the stock Dave to the DC4 or ARC6 Dave I have had both side by side for easy and proper comparison. 

I really hope to be involved in a Farad and Sean Jacobs Dave comparison one day. Perhaps the easiest way for it to happen would be if a Farad Dave owner in the UK and I can get together and do that. I am a great fan of the Farad Super3 for the Qutest and indeed that is what I used with my own Qutest. The only power supply I found that could surpass it in my system with the Qutest was when I tried a DC4 and that to my ears was a rather shocking step up . . . . but then so is the difference in price which is not to be lightly dismissed! However I tried the swop one day with an audio buddy and his face was priceless.



chesebert said:


> Boy I think you guys are hurting Chord’s feelings 🤣. Properly designed SMPS should have less and not more noise than linear PS.



No, RW’s feelings are not hurt. He has explained exactly why he thinks we are wrong to favour the LPS to power the Dave and he probably shakes his head in quizzical dismay every time he reads our posts saying we favour a Sean Jacobs or Farad power supply with the Dave. I would like to think he is somewhat tolerant of what we say though because we all agree that the Dave is the best DAC that one can buy, whether in standard or modded form.

@zen87192 Please let me know when you order your Farad set up for the Dave and we can get together to compare our Daves.



chesebert said:


> I point you to this thread for actual testing data. https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/31119-power-supply-8-group-test-lps-and-smps/


 To be fair, I do not think that one can extrapolate any of that with $100 or cheaper LPSs to the ones we are using with our Daves. 🤣 A good LPS is not cheap to build. That is a known disadvantage. I hope I am not being too condescending there.


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## x RELIC x

zen87192 said:


> Is it OK to drive Headphones from the Balanced out of the DAVE? I ask to see if there is any benefit being increased Bass perhaps?


Do not drive headphones from the DAVE’s xlr out, there is not enough current.



Rob Watts said:


> Categorically do not do this. The balanced drive has insufficient current drive and is intended to drive power amps only.
> 
> Dave can drive the HE1000 with ease - they are rated at 90 dB 1mW 33 ohms. Dave will give 1.4W into 33 ohms that translates to ear damaging 121 dB SPL with the HE1000.
> 
> ...





Rob Watts said:


> I am not listening....
> 
> Actually, production Dave now has short circuit protection resistors installed on the balanced XLR, so it absolutely won't drive headphones! It didn't have the current drive either for headphones too.
> 
> ...





Rob Watts said:


> Both Hugo 2 and Dave can deliver 0.5A RMS as limiting current - but Hugo 2 can be voltage as well as current limited depending on load. So Dave will deliver 2.1W into 8 ohms, but Hugo 2 is 1.05W into 8 ohms.
> 
> The 50 mA current limit only applies to the balanced output, which is for balanced inputs on power amps, not for driving loads.





Rob Watts said:


> TT2 and Dave are different. On TT2 the XLR OP's are wired directly to high output current OP stages, XLR pin 2 is the same as RCA phono, but Dave is via 33 ohm resistors. And with Dave the negative output is not high current, so it will not drive headphones. The intent with Dave was to drive amplifiers only with the XLRs.


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## chesebert

Triode User said:


> Indeed I did say that about the DC4 and the Dave. . . . . and then the even better ARC6 version came along and that moved the goal posts some way beyond a DC4.
> 
> It would be really good to have an ARC6 Dave and a Farad Dave side by side in the same system and hear both. I think it would need both versions of a converted Dave to be available for proper comparison rather than rely on audio memory. When I have compared the stock Dave to the DC4 or ARC6 Dave I have had both side by side for easy and proper comparison.
> 
> ...


How much are you spending on your linear PS? 🤣


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## MvRBE10 (Feb 11, 2022)

chesebert said:


> How much are you spending on your linear PS? 🤣


Seeing it as all expensis in a life time aand the joy we get from it. Near to nothing in the big picture😅

Looking at all of us having a dave and stuff attached to it makes us all sort of having it for the fun of it and because we can. Its just if we want to spend it, not if we can or cannot. At least if i judge most of us correctly we are in that playfield


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## zen87192 (Feb 11, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> No please read the copy i pasted 3 threads ago! 15v -15v and +5v. The load of the dave is so minimal that the farad superseeds it 3x on the most +15 i believe


Many thanks. I don’t even know how I missed almost half a page of info! Looking in to that Farad Dave alternative now.


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## zen87192

Triode User said:


> @zen87192 Please let me know when you order your Farad set up for the Dave and we can get together to compare our Daves.


Will do…. You’re only ‘up the road’ from me so I’d love to get together to make the comparisons. Cheers🍻


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## Triode User

zen87192 said:


> Will do…. You’re only ‘up the road’ from me so I’d love to get together to make the comparisons. Cheers🍻


Cool. I look forward to that. 👍


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## MvRBE10

zen87192 said:


> Will do…. You’re only ‘up the road’ from me so I’d love to get together to make the comparisons. Cheers🍻


You prob end up with one of these, making a batch now. Killing some time..


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## Triode User

MvRBE10 said:


> You prob end up with one of these, making a batch now. Killing some time..


So are you a ‘Member of the Trade’ now? 😜


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## MvRBE10 (Feb 11, 2022)

Triode User said:


> So are you a ‘Member of the Trade’ now? 😜


No stopped trading few years ago with jap cars and engine stuff. Its just for fun and joy now and for you guys that also are loving this hobby. No gains here😀 

on the startup i make the machining parts got a cutting machine here for small things so in this beginning stage i use my dave as develop item so mattijs can focus on the electronics and maybe later let these inlets be made i china or somewere else. Just making 10 or 20 of these dc inlets. All for good fun.


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## marcmccalmont

chesebert said:


> How much are you spending on your linear PS? 🤣


Way too much but it’s a hobby that hurts no one and brings pleasure to the owner. Compared to gambling or drugs or womanizing  I’d say our silly expenditures are not too expensive at all!


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## marcmccalmont (Feb 11, 2022)

Can’t do this with the Farad board installed!


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## MvRBE10

You see those two black caps on the dave board. We were windering these are also colering the sound and are really cheap. If all is settled is was thinking of replaciing them for decent ones. At the end they also determan the sound. Ps cool array of caps. What was the main thing you noticed!


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## marcmccalmont

MvRBE10 said:


> You see those two black caps on the dave board. We were windering these are also colering the sound and are really cheap. If all is settled is was thinking of replaciing them for decent ones. At the end they also determan the sound. Ps cool array of caps. What was the main thing you noticed!


Everything got better! I call it the arc6 plus!


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## nwavesailor

I am a new Dave owner and would like to keep my 5 year Chord warranty in place.
I am not doubting that this could be a nice step up, but I also like to having a warranty for a fairly expensive piece of audio gear in the unlikely event of a failure.


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## MvRBE10

nwavesailor said:


> I am a new Dave owner and would like to keep my 5 year Chord warranty in place.
> I am not doubting that this could be a nice step up, but I also like to having a warranty for a fairly expensive piece of audio gear in the unlikely event of a failure.


Than you should not do any of the changes we recommend in here. Just the powercord and ac filtering is left icw maybe a bnc cable upgrade.


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## Ciggavelli

nwavesailor said:


> I am a new Dave owner and would like to keep my 5 year Chord warranty in place.
> I am not doubting that this could be a nice step up, but I also like to having a warranty for a fairly expensive piece of audio gear in the unlikely event of a failure.


As far as I know, there isn't a piece of tape or a marker that breaks upon opening the DAVE case.  You can always just put the old power supply in, and it's back to being a regular DAVE.  But yeah, it is a risk, so I can see people being a little concerned with it.  My DAVE was a few year old, so it wasn't a big deal to me


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## nwavesailor

MvRBE10 said:


> Than you should not do any of the changes we recommend in here. Just the powercord and ac filtering is left icw maybe a bnc cable upgrade.


Yup, I understand! 

I worked for a well know mod company for over 15 years and did a lot of soldering so I DO believe in mods, just not on a my own brand new $$$ DAC!!!


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## Powersquat (Feb 11, 2022)

Deleted.


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## chesebert (Feb 11, 2022)

Modding is so mid 2000s. Remember people used to send their SS gear to get Tube output stage or to have their power supply rebuilt with tube rectifier? Modwright comes to mind....  complete waste of money in many cases and the added cost could have gone to a higher tier unit to begin with. Those were the days 

Although back then we were modding sub $3k stuff. Now we are modding $10k dacs ....


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## Ciggavelli

chesebert said:


> Modding is so mid 2000s. Remember people used to send their SS gear to get Tube output stage or to have their power supply rebuilt with tube rectifier? Modwright comes to mind....  complete waste of money in many cases and the added cost could have gone to a higher tier unit to begin with. Those were the days
> 
> Although back then we were modding sub $3k stuff. Now we are modding $10k dacs ....


Yeah, if you put a DC4 on both the DAVE and M-Scaler, it brings the cost up to near the cost of a DCS Rossini + Clock. That was my dilemma for a long time before getting the two DC4s. I figured I already had the DAVE and the M-Scaler, so buying 2 DC4s was cheaper than starting fresh with DCS gear. If I had to start over again, I’d try to demo a Rossini and Clock right next to my DC4 mDAVE.


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## Powersquat

marcmccalmont said:


> Any plans on a single +_ 15vdc power supply using one center taped transformer? Should be an improvement over 2 individual  +15v and -15v supplies
> BTW I’m using a super 3 on my ProJect CD Box RS transport with great results



Sorry to my fellow Dave owners, this is a little off topic. Marc, as a fellow Project Transport owner I would appreciate if you could provide some information.. I have the Project RS2 transport, currently still using the standard SMPS power supply, I'm afraid I'm showing my ignorance, would you happen to know the correct DC connector for the Project RS transport power input, I've been told it's mini XLR, would you be able to confirm this. Also voltage wise, which Farad Super 3 model did you order?.

Thank's


----------



## nwavesailor

chesebert said:


> Modding is so mid 2000s. Remember people used to send their SS gear to get Tube output stage or to have their power supply rebuilt with tube rectifier? Modwright comes to mind....  complete waste of money in many cases and the added cost could have gone to a higher tier unit to begin with. Those were the days
> 
> Although back then we were modding sub $3k stuff. Now we are modding $10k dacs ....


Yup, $10K DAC's.............this is one crazy A#* hobby!!!


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## chesebert (Feb 11, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> Yeah, if you put a DC4 on both the DAVE and M-Scaler, it brings the cost up to near the cost of a DCS Rossini + Clock. That was my dilemma for a long time before getting the two DC4s. I figured I already had the DAVE and the M-Scaler, so buying 2 DC4s was cheaper than starting fresh with DCS gear. If I had to start over again, I’d try to demo a Rossini and Clock right next to my DC4 mDAVE.


That’s an interesting choice. There aren’t that many viable dacs at around $30k: dCS Rossini, Emm Labs DA2, Linn Klimax DS Organik, MSB (the middle one) and Playback Designs dream dac. I would not put Chord among that group TBH. There are other players that may have a dac in the price range but I don’t count those (e.g. Audio Note).


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## chesebert (Feb 11, 2022)

nwavesailor said:


> Yup, $10K DAC's.............this is one crazy A#* hobby!!!


Isn’t that the subject matter of this thread? Dave + upscaler is $15k retail. And folks putting in another $10-15k to upgrade power supply.


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## marcmccalmont (Feb 12, 2022)

Powersquat said:


> Sorry to my fellow Dave owners, this is a little off topic. Marc, as a fellow Project Transport owner I would appreciate if you could provide some information.. I have the Project RS2 transport, currently still using the standard SMPS power supply, I'm afraid I'm showing my ignorance, would you happen to know the correct DC connector for the Project RS transport power input, I've been told it's mini XLR, would you be able to confirm this. Also voltage wise, which Farad Super 3 model did you order?.
> 
> Thank's


Yes it is a 3 pin mini xlr I ordered a Farad super 3 20vdc but you might consider this I have one on order Linear Tube Audio LPS+ http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/project-cd-box-rs2-transport/
I ordered the Farad without the connector and terminated it myself Linear Tube Audio will supply the dc cable with the correct mini xlr. The LTA has the advantage of shielded r core transformer shottky diodes and bellesen  regulators and proper layout ac input on one side and dc output on the other


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## nwavesailor

chesebert said:


> Isn’t that the subject matter of this thread? Dave + upscaler is $15k retail. And folks putting in another $10-15k to upgrade power supply.


I'm with you on the Dave and M scaler but not quite ready for the PS upgrade........................yet!


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## chesebert (Feb 11, 2022)

nwavesailor said:


> I'm with you on the Dave and M scaler but not quite ready for the PS upgrade........................yet!


There are so many other things to consider when you are at $30k: ceramic circuit board, re engineer the enclosure possibly (thicker, heavier and unibody), adding specialty coating/shielding layers, use higher quality caps, build multiple power supplies for each analog channel and digital and use separate power for each clock, use multiple FPGAs instead of 1… so on and so forth. TOTL analog design gets expensive really fast.

... at some point you just get tired of these upgrade cycles and say it's good enough and get off headfi


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## DJJEZ

chesebert said:


> ... _*at some point you just get tired of these upgrade cycles and say it's good enough and get off headfi *_


When you run outta money or get fed up of being broke lol


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## nwavesailor

I have only had my Dave for a few weeks and I need to enjoy it for a_ little _while stock!

My mother had these 2 saying I remember as a kid:
"A fool and his gold are soon parted" and "Spending like a drunken sailor" (with my apologies to sailors!)


----------



## ecwl

nwavesailor said:


> I have only had my Dave for a few weeks and I need to enjoy it for a_ little _while stock!
> 
> My mother had these 2 saying I remember as a kid:
> "A fool and his gold are soon parted" and "Spending like a drunken sailor" (with my apologies to sailors!)


Haha… I just realized I had my Dave since February 2016. And I’m still on the stock power supply.
Although everyone here is getting me freaked out that my 5-year warranty is over.
I now use the Toslink inputs only. I tried so many ways to optimize my USB source and one day I threw up my hands and went back to Toslink. Also saved a lot of time, money and mental anguish that way. But my battery-powered USB sources sound the same as Toslink and 80% of my mains-powered USB sources sound fairly close to Toslink. But in obsessive-compulsive audiophilia, fairly close was not close enough.


----------



## HeeBroG

marcmccalmont said:


> Can’t do this with the Farad board installed!


What PS mod is this one?


----------



## Ciggavelli

ecwl said:


> Haha… I just realized I had my Dave since February 2016. And I’m still on the stock power supply.
> Although everyone here is getting me freaked out that my 5-year warranty is over.
> I now use the Toslink inputs only. I tried so many ways to optimize my USB source and one day I threw up my hands and went back to Toslink. Also saved a lot of time, money and mental anguish that way. But my battery-powered USB sources sound the same as Toslink and 80% of my mains-powered USB sources sound fairly close to Toslink. But in obsessive-compulsive audiophilia, fairly close was not close enough.


A cheap(er) non-warrant breaking upgrade is the Innuos Phoenix USB reclocker. It uses a Sean Jacobs LPS like the DC4. It a big upgrade


----------



## jlbrach

Ciggavelli said:


> A cheap(er) non-warrant breaking upgrade is the Innuos Phoenix USB reclocker. It uses a Sean Jacobs LPS like the DC4. It a big upgrade


absolutely right,my purchase of the phoenix was one of the best upgrades I have done....really good


----------



## MvRBE10

nwavesailor said:


> Yup, $10K DAC's.............this is one crazy A#* hobby!!!


I mod my 65k datsun hobby car so whats crazy and i mod my 800k house?


----------



## Triode User

chesebert said:


> That’s an interesting choice. There aren’t that many viable dacs at around $30k: dCS Rossini, Emm Labs DA2, Linn Klimax DS Organik, MSB (the middle one) and Playback Designs dream dac. I would not put Chord among that group TBH. There are other players that may have a dac in the price range but I don’t count those (e.g. Audio Note).


Out of interest, and context, what dac do you own?


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## chesebert (Feb 12, 2022)

Triode User said:


> Out of interest, and context, what dac do you own?


They are all in my profile...
Linn Klimax DS (SMPS)
Linn Akurate DS (SMPS)
Emm Labs dac2x (SMPS)
Ayre codex (LPS)
mojo+poly (Battery)

too many, I know....

Edit to indicate power supply type.


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## chesebert (Feb 12, 2022)

Triode User said:


> Out of interest, and context, what dac do you own?


I saw your cables., and I have a question. Why did you decide to build a BNC cable rather than a proper AES cable? BNC is still on the spdif standard and can only output max 0.75v P-P and is subject to external R/F noise. AES/EBU solves this problem by increasing the signal to 7v P-P, an almost 20dB boost in signal strength. In addition, AES are carried using XLR cable, which means you get CMRR, which by design will eliminate external R/F. Just curious.


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## edwardsean

marcmccalmont said:


> Everything got better! I call it the arc6 plus!





marcmccalmont said:


> Can’t do this with the Farad board installed!



Please do let us know what you did here. I'm wildly curious. 

For myself, I'm doing my modding within the external SJ PS, so a little less risky. However, that empty space in the Dave chasis is begging to be used for something good. Is that a bank of Nichicons?


----------



## Triode User

chesebert said:


> I saw your cables., and I have a question. Why did you decide to build a BNC cable rather than a proper AES cable? BNC is still on the spdif standard and can only output max 0.75v P-P and is subject to external R/F noise. AES/EBU solves this problem by increasing the signal to 7v P-P, an almost 20dB boost in signal strength. In addition, AES are carried using XLR cable, which means you get CMRR, which by design will eliminate external R/F. Just curious.


As you ask, it was because in the early days I had the Chord Blu MkII which has dual BNC output and now I have the Mscaler also connected to the Dave via dual BNC. Also, AES’s inherent external noise rejection cannot help when the source component is itself overlaying RF noise on the signal (and which seems to be the case with many manufacturers streamers and transports).

I have tried AES into Dave (my streamer outputs USB, BNC, Toslink, AES, i2s) and I prefer the sound quality of BNC input into the Dave and Mscaler (Mscaler does not have an AES input). I do accept that there might be an element of YMMV on the matter of which input is preferred into the the Dave/Mscaler but quite a few of us prefer BNC.


----------



## edwardsean

Ciggavelli said:


> Yeah, if you put a DC4 on both the DAVE and M-Scaler, it brings the cost up to near the cost of a DCS Rossini + Clock. That was my dilemma for a long time before getting the two DC4s. I figured I already had the DAVE and the M-Scaler, so buying 2 DC4s was cheaper than starting fresh with DCS gear. If I had to start over again, I’d try to demo a Rossini and Clock right next to my DC4 mDAVE.



Before I go through a round of major investment into the Dave, I find myself at my dealers listening to dCS components. I've brought home the Bartok twice now and then also looked at the Rossini. I wondered if I could just live with these big boxes instead of the Dave and the capillary network of components feeding it.  Can't do it. 

People describe listening to dCS gear as transporting them to a euphoric, blissful world. I agree. It is a simply sumptuous sound. However, it is the dCS world. Every sonic component is drenched with dCS's dense, velvety texture. I could easily see why people love it. For me though, the Dave brings me more faithfully into the world of the music. 

To my ears, the Dave System does not coat but better reveals gradients of timbral textures as rendered by the sources. The shapes and shading seem to come more directly from the beauty of the instruments and voices themselves. I think this is the wonder of what Rob Watts achieved in the Dave. Then this ecosystem of gear around It pumps in greater mass and flesh, detail and dynamics. 

Is Dave + LPS (maybe someone will design an equally great SMPS?) + Upscaling + Server (reclocker), etc. the best DAC in the world? I don't know. I'd love to also hear an EMM or MSB at some point. But, irregardless, this system remains something pretty special, and of a truth, It's been outrageously good fun building it. 

ps. By the by, if you don't know, Sean Jacobs sells DIY DC4 modules. https://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/dc3dc4-diy-modules


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## marcmccalmont

HeeBroG said:


> What PS mod is this one?


Mine! I’ve passed it along to Sean Jacobs


----------



## marcmccalmont

edwardsean said:


> Please do let us know what you did here. I'm wildly curious.
> 
> For myself, I'm doing my modding within the external SJ PS, so a little less risky. However, that empty space in the Dave chasis is begging to be used for something good. Is that a bank of Nichicons?


Yes Nichicon UKZ I’ve passed along my notes to Sean Jacobs a significant improvement in all respects


----------



## marcmccalmont

edwardsean said:


> Before I go through a round of major investment into the Dave, I find myself at my dealers listening to dCS components. I've brought home the Bartok twice now and then also looked at the Rossini. I wondered if I could just live with these big boxes instead of the Dave and the capillary network of components feeding it.  Can't do it.
> 
> People describe listening to dCS gear as transporting them to a euphoric, blissful world. I agree. It is a simply sumptuous sound. However, it is the dCS world. Every sonic component is drenched with dCS's dense, velvety texture. I could easily see why people love it. For me though, the Dave brings me more faithfully into the world of the music.
> 
> ...


It’s a hobby so there is no right or wrong but I’m with you getting closer to live music is what I prefer over the seductive  high end stereo store sound. My Dave, Spectral amps and MBL speakers gets me close!


----------



## Powersquat

marcmccalmont said:


> Yes it is a 3 pin mini xlr I ordered a Farad super 3 20vdc but you might consider this I have one on order Linear Tube Audio LPS+ http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/project-cd-box-rs2-transport/
> I ordered the Farad without the connector and terminated it myself Linear Tube Audio will supply the dc cable with the correct mini xlr. The LTA has the advantage of shielded r core transformer shottky diodes and berelson regulators and proper layout ac input on one side and dc output on the other





nwavesailor said:


> Thank's, I had read about the LTA whilst researching the Project transport, Ted J's review was a major influence in my decision to demonstrate the RS2.



LTA or Farad?, technically at least, it would appear the LTA should outperform the Farad, but without the opportunity to demonstrate both units, who knows.

Hopefully, you may be in a position to enlighten me once You've had a chance to try the LTA power supply.


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## marcmccalmont

Powersquat said:


> LTA or Farad?, technically at least, it would appear the LTA should outperform the Farad, but without the opportunity to demonstrate both units, who knows.
> 
> Hopefully, you may be in a position to enlighten me once You've had a chance to try the LTA power supply.


I should have the LTA in 2-3 weeks add some time for break in and I’ll provide feed back but I’m optimistic. The project UNI 1 was a noticeable improvement over the stock wall wart and the Farad a noticeable improvement over the UNI 1 so I’m hoping for another improvement with the LTA


----------



## Triode User

edwardsean said:


> Before I go through a round of major investment into the Dave, I find myself at my dealers listening to dCS components. I've brought home the Bartok twice now and then also looked at the Rossini. I wondered if I could just live with these big boxes instead of the Dave and the capillary network of components feeding it.  Can't do it.
> 
> People describe listening to dCS gear as transporting them to a euphoric, blissful world. I agree. It is a simply sumptuous sound. However, it is the dCS world. Every sonic component is drenched with dCS's dense, velvety texture. I could easily see why people love it. For me though, the Dave brings me more faithfully into the world of the music.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link thats a good shout out for those DIY DC4 modules especially because in the UK they do not attract VAT.

Sam Rosen at Positve Feedback has done one review where he says he considers a standard factory powered Dave (but sorted in other ways) + Mscaler as being at the same level as the Rossini. I have not heard a Rossini but a friend is bringing his Terminator + over mid march and I’m hoping a friendly dealer will add a Rossini into the mix as well . . . .


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## edwardsean

marcmccalmont said:


> It’s a hobby so there is no right or wrong but I’m with you getting closer to live music is what I prefer over the seductive  high end stereo store sound. My Dave, Spectral amps and MBL speakers gets me close!



Yes! Also, tastes change for a variety of reasons. Over time, I've gravitated toward realism over lushness. I still love euphonic textures but as rendered in the production and less from the reproduction. I could see someone else moving the other direction. 



marcmccalmont said:


> Yes Nichicon UKZ I’ve passed along my notes to Sean Jacobs a significant improvement in all respects



So, is that your take on an "Arc6" style recap board nestled in that Chamber w/in Dave, 15 Muses instead of the 6 Mundorfs, no choke? Are you using DC4 regulators externally or is the whole PS your own design?

Maybe it's best to take this off the thread.


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## TheAttorney

Triode User said:


> Cool. I look forward to that. 👍


I look forward to it as well [SJ vs Farad power supplies]. While you're at it, it would be useful to see where the DC3 (if you still have it) fits into this pecking order.
Whilst it's highly unlikely (but still possible) that the Farad can beat an ARC6 DC4, a more telling comparison would be against the DC3.


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## audio_1

Ciggavelli said:


> Yeah, if you put a DC4 on both the DAVE and M-Scaler, it brings the cost up to near the cost of a DCS Rossini + Clock. That was my dilemma for a long time before getting the two DC4s. I figured I already had the DAVE and the M-Scaler, so buying 2 DC4s was cheaper than starting fresh with DCS gear. If I had to start over again, I’d try to demo a Rossini and Clock right next to my DC4 mDAVE.


Don't worry about the dCS Rossini + Clock. The Dave with improved power supply and m-Scaler would be far better than it imho. Even a standard Dave easily exceeds the performance of the Vivaldi. I compared both before purchasing the Dave!


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## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> I look forward to it as well [SJ vs Farad power supplies]. While you're at it, it would be useful to see where the DC3 (if you still have it) fits into this pecking order.
> Whilst it's highly unlikely (but still possible) that the Farad can beat an ARC6 DC4, a more telling comparison would be against the DC3.


Sorry, I sold the DC3 for Dave to part fund the DC4. I did hear them side by side powering the Dave before selling the DC3 and the DC4 was very far ahead of the DC3.

I do still have DC4 as well as an ARC6 but at some point I guess I will sell the DC4. Hopefully not before hearing the Farad/Dave.


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## audio_1 (Feb 12, 2022)

edwardsean said:


> Is Dave + LPS (maybe someone will design an equally great SMPS?) + Upscaling + Server (reclocker), etc. the best DAC in the world? I don't know. I'd love to also hear an EMM or MSB at some point. But, irregardless, this system remains something pretty special, and of a truth, It's been outrageously good fun building it.


I would say yes. I have owned both dCS and Emm Labs DACs in the past. Emm labs convert PCM to DSD so they are far from transparent. Soft bass and transients. Thanks to Rob Watts I now know why. Emm labs DACs and transports are designed with optical connections. I erroneously used AES connections when I had the Emm Labs due to the perceived enhanced detail and liveliness. Emm Lab DACs are also affected by ground plane noise and noise floor modulation! People forget all DACs suffer from the same issues (& jitter) as Chord DACs, discussed on head-fi!


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## marcmccalmont (Feb 13, 2022)

TheAttorney said:


> I look forward to it as well [SJ vs Farad power supplies]. While you're at it, it would be useful to see where the DC3 (if you still have it) fits into this pecking order.
> Whilst it's highly unlikely (but still possible) that the Farad can beat an ARC6 DC4, a more telling comparison would be against the DC3.


I discussed a +_ 15 volt supply with LTA and they have it on the drawing board (Bellesen  has matching negative regulators) so in the future we might have another affordable option if your interested contact LTA and let them know the more inquiries the faster it will happen
The contact link for LTA https://www.lineartubeaudio.com/contact


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## chesebert

audio_1 said:


> I would say yes. I have owned both dCS and Emm Labs DACs in the past. Emm labs convert PCM to DSD so they are far from transparent. Soft bass and transients. Thanks to Rob Watts I now know why. Emm labs DACs and transports are designed with optical connections. I erroneously used AES connections when I had the Emm Labs due to the perceived enhanced detail and liveliness. Emm Lab DACs are also affected by ground plane noise and noise floor modulation! People forget all DACs suffer from the same issues (& jitter) as Chord DACs, discussed on head-fi!


To be fair, you compared a 2010 SACD player to a 2016 dac. Also, not saying there is anything sus, but all you have posted since you joined headfi were Chord Dave-related matters. Are you sure you are not a Chord dealer or supplier or other related party?


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## audio_1

chesebert said:


> Are you sure you are not a Chord dealer or supplier or other related party?


No, just a Dave owner, really enjoying the sound of my system.


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## chesebert

audio_1 said:


> No, just a Dave owner, really enjoying the sound of my system.


Well, keep on trucking in that case


----------



## Sampajanna

edwardsean said:


> Before I go through a round of major investment into the Dave, I find myself at my dealers listening to dCS components. I've brought home the Bartok twice now and then also looked at the Rossini. I wondered if I could just live with these big boxes instead of the Dave and the capillary network of components feeding it.  Can't do it.
> 
> People describe listening to dCS gear as transporting them to a euphoric, blissful world. I agree. It is a simply sumptuous sound. However, it is the dCS world. Every sonic component is drenched with dCS's dense, velvety texture. I could easily see why people love it. For me though, the Dave brings me more faithfully into the world of the music.
> 
> ...


This is so well put. I agree. Fully dialed in Mscaler + Dave w/ DC4 and cables punches way, way above its weight.


----------



## Darkliner

Just received news my DC4 Arc6 is ready to be shipped out.  I am extremely excited to say the least, to finally find out what the dave on steroids sounds like!


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## muski

Darkliner said:


> Just received news my DC4 Arc6 is ready to be shipped out.  I am extremely excited to say the least, to finally find out what the dave on steroids sounds like!


Can’t wait to hear what you think of this compelling upgrade.


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## marcmccalmont

Darkliner said:


> Just received news my DC4 Arc6 is ready to be shipped out.  I am extremely excited to say the least, to finally find out what the dave on steroids sounds like!


I’m sure you’ve been warned of a 3 month break in period. I’m 2 1/2 months into mine. Was better than stock from the beginning but every so often a lesser day then better the next.


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## sm60 (Feb 13, 2022)

muski said:


> Can’t wait to hear what you think of this compelling upgrade.


I have gone in a different direction. Just got this Lampizator DAC. Best DAC I’ve heard in 30 years of listening to digital audio. Utterly natural sounding without a trace of harshness. Resolves everything up to DSD 512 and PCM 32 bit 768khz. Has a built in Roon bridge so Roon is plug and play by hooking it up to LAN.   The Dave in its box weighs 10 pounds. This behemoth comes in a flight case weighing almost 100 pounds. Costs twice as much as the Dave.  On DSD the sound is simply transcendent. The room disappears and singers project with a realism that’s hard to describe. You are there.

Downsides? Other than the silly price (as you’d expect with a DAC that costs this much, the build quality is superlative with ultra high end parts) and the sheer weight and size due to its use of direct heated triodes is that one must be prepared to put up with the downsides of owning tube equipment. In particular, be prepared to pay top dollar for the best direct heated triodes. But you can get bargains if you are prepared to experiment. It allows six different types of output tubes and they sound quite different. I have the pricey KR 242s that are stunning in their dynamics and resolution. Ellington’s famous Jazz Party album is a raucous romp with a full bore brass section and a diverse suite of percussion instruments. The Lampi gets the tonality right in this 60 year old recording better than any other component I’ve yet heard, vinyl included.

I don’t view the Dave as competition because it’s not in this price class and it was built to a much lower price level with obvious economy of parts and material. It’s like comparing a Lexus, well designed and built but with some economizing, to a high end Maserati. The Lampi uses cost no object parts in its build and is made to order. Takes 3 months. You can customize it in many ways.

I’ll keep my Dave as a semi portable rig with headphones. That’s really where it belongs and shines. The Lampi is my new reference for digital playback. Highly recommended if you can afford the tariff.


----------



## MvRBE10

marcmccalmont said:


> I’m sure you’ve been warned of a 3 month break in period. I’m 2 1/2 months into mine. Was better than stock from the beginning but every so often a lesser day then better the next.


Thats odd? Did not now that. My farad setup for the dave was like breathtaking from the moment inturned it on and slightly improved just like the first time of the dave. 3 month??? Wow


----------



## Ciggavelli

MvRBE10 said:


> Thats odd? Did not now that. My farad setup for the dave was like breathtaking from the moment inturned it on and slightly improved just like the first time of the dave. 3 month??? Wow


It’s the Mundorf caps that take that long to break-in


----------



## MvRBE10

So what part of the caps inflickt this? That it colors or do not give the current form it needs straight from the box. There is than a chemical process that make up for what the electronics or the design does not solve out of the box. Hoping to understand this process as curiuous i am.


----------



## alxw0w

sm60 said:


> I have gone in a different direction. Just got this Lampizator DAC. Best DAC I’ve heard in 30 years of listening to digital audio. Utterly natural sounding without a trace of harshness. Resolves everything up to DSD 512 and PCM 32 bit 768khz. Has a built in Roon bridge so Roon is plug and play by hooking it up to LAN.   The Dave in its box weighs 10 pounds. This behemoth comes in a flight case weighing almost 100 pounds. Costs twice as much as the Dave.  On DSD the sound is simply transcendent. The room disappears and singers project with a realism that’s hard to describe. You are there.
> 
> Downsides? Other than the silly price (as you’d expect with a DAC that costs this much, the build quality is superlative with ultra high end parts) and the sheer weight and size due to its use of direct heated triodes is that one must be prepared to put up with the downsides of owning tube equipment. In particular, be prepared to pay top dollar for the best direct heated triodes. But you can get bargains if you are prepared to experiment. It allows six different types of output tubes and they sound quite different. I have the pricey KR 242s that are stunning in their dynamics and resolution. Ellington’s famous Jazz Party album is a raucous romp with a full bore brass section and a diverse suite of percussion instruments. The Lampi gets the tonality right in this 60 year old recording better than any other component I’ve yet heard, vinyl included.
> 
> ...


The problem with lampi is I want to buy dac not a piece of wooden floor.


----------



## marcmccalmont

MvRBE10 said:


> So what part of the caps inflickt this? That it colors or do not give the current form it needs straight from the box. There is than a chemical process that make up for what the electronics or the design does not solve out of the box. Hoping to understand this process as curiuous i am.


All dielectrics take time to break in whether it is an interconnect, speaker cable or capacitor. The larger the cap or longer the cable the more time it takes. Dielectrics store energy by twisting the molecules so I’m guessing like a spring it takes time to soften up a bit. Best to ask a material science expert!


----------



## MvRBE10

I understand that part i been around some time but not that the difference is between almost the same as stock until 3 month and than heaven. Thats the part i am trying to grasp


----------



## marcmccalmont

MvRBE10 said:


> I understand that part i been around some time but not that the difference is between almost the same as stock until 3 month and than heaven. Thats the part i am trying to grasp


Nobody said that! I said it was better than stock from day one but got better with time some days a step back most days a step forward. Lost in translation I guess!


----------



## MvRBE10

Ahhh i readed it as it was slightly better than stock and in the process of 3 month it got worse and than some better and worked its way up until good. Thats why i wondered how the heck does that piece of electronics work if its so depended of just the caps..


----------



## griff500

It's quite well known that the caps, and particularly Mundorf, can take time to settle and will have some days better than others until they do. Somebody did some measurements on this on some website somewhere - cannot recall where - and also showed that it can happen again if they are without power for some time.


----------



## MvRBE10

Ok did not now to that extreme. Shall be due to there build properties than


----------



## chesebert (Feb 13, 2022)

sm60 said:


> I have gone in a different direction. Just got this Lampizator DAC. Best DAC I’ve heard in 30 years of listening to digital audio. Utterly natural sounding without a trace of harshness. Resolves everything up to DSD 512 and PCM 32 bit 768khz. Has a built in Roon bridge so Roon is plug and play by hooking it up to LAN.   The Dave in its box weighs 10 pounds. This behemoth comes in a flight case weighing almost 100 pounds. Costs twice as much as the Dave.  On DSD the sound is simply transcendent. The room disappears and singers project with a realism that’s hard to describe. You are there.
> 
> Downsides? Other than the silly price (as you’d expect with a DAC that costs this much, the build quality is superlative with ultra high end parts) and the sheer weight and size due to its use of direct heated triodes is that one must be prepared to put up with the downsides of owning tube equipment. In particular, be prepared to pay top dollar for the best direct heated triodes. But you can get bargains if you are prepared to experiment. It allows six different types of output tubes and they sound quite different. I have the pricey KR 242s that are stunning in their dynamics and resolution. Ellington’s famous Jazz Party album is a raucous romp with a full bore brass section and a diverse suite of percussion instruments. The Lampi gets the tonality right in this 60 year old recording better than any other component I’ve yet heard, vinyl included.
> 
> ...


I am not sure how Dave is even "semi portable" but okay  

So another high end killer couldn't really kill the high end. Why am I not surprised.

Why can't people just accept this: you get what you pay for.


----------



## jlbrach

semi portable in that it is easy to pick it up and move it from room to room


----------



## GryphonGuy

Darkliner said:


> Just received news my DC4 Arc6 is ready to be shipped out.  I am extremely excited to say the least, to finally find out what the dave on steroids sounds like!



I've just paid the import taxes and duties on my ARC6 DC4 with my wallet out having CPR. They say it is out for delivery by this afternoon. Expectations and excitement are supreme ATM.


----------



## GryphonGuy

marcmccalmont said:


> Nobody said that! I said it was better than stock from day one but got better with time some days a step back most days a step forward. Lost in translation I guess!



That is consistent with a lot of high end equipment in my experience. So by mid May, I should have constant TOTL performance from DAVE with the ARC6 DC4 powering it and some "interesting" days on the break-in journey from now.

Regards
GG


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## edwardsean (Feb 13, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> Ok did not now to that extreme. Shall be due to there build properties than


All of this is consistent with my experiences with the Farad and SJ power supplies. I'm sure you would agree that the design and capacitors used are quite different.

Definitely, the Mundorfs are well-known for their long break in period, but the other caps Sean uses like the AN Kaisei also take time. He recommends giving them all a good deal of time.

It's interesting I'm experimenting and upgrading my DC3 by stages: regulators, recap boards, capacitors, full loom internal wiring, umbilical. It has been a joy working on this unit and listening to the effects of different upgrades.

[Edit: as to break in with these components: we all have to account for psychological effects (we're all too close), but there is an undeniable alteration over time.]


----------



## edwardsean

jlbrach said:


> semi portable in that it is easy to pick it up and move it from room to room


@mammal carries his Bartok from room to room around the house, so there's that. 

But, all in all, I don't know if we audiophiles, as a group, are known for our upper body strength.


----------



## sm60

edwardsean said:


> @mammal carries his Bartok from room to room around the house, so there's that.
> 
> But, all in all, I don't know if we audiophiles, as a group, are known for our upper body strength.



I could imagine traveling with the Dave easily. It’s quite light and compact, one of its most appealing features. But the 100 pound Lampi? That would be pretty loony. 

In any case, audiophiles are no match for musicians who are way more persnickety in terms of their demands. The legendary pianist Vladimir Horowitz gave a series of concerts in Russia for which he had his multi-ton concert grand Steinway piano shipped to Russia from his Manhattan apartment and flown from location to location. I imagine that must have cost a pretty penny. He would not record on humid days because he said his piano didn’t sound right. I’ve heard plenty of great violinists in San Francisco playing their multi-million dollar Stradivarius instruments. Insuring those must cost a huge amount. 

We don’t yet have a multi-million dollar DAC yet, but it can’t be far now….and you can pay for it in bitcoin or NFTs! 😀


----------



## chesebert

sm60 said:


> I could imagine traveling with the Dave easily. It’s quite light and compact, one of its most appealing features. But the 100 pound Lampi? That would be pretty loony.
> 
> In any case, audiophiles are no match for musicians who are way more persnickety in terms of their demands. The legendary pianist Vladimir Horowitz gave a series of concerts in Russia for which he had his multi-ton concert grand Steinway piano shipped to Russia from his Manhattan apartment and flown from location to location. I imagine that must have cost a pretty penny. He would not record on humid days because he said his piano didn’t sound right. I’ve heard plenty of great violinists in San Francisco playing their multi-million dollar Stradivarius instruments. Insuring those must cost a huge amount.
> 
> We don’t yet have a multi-million dollar DAC yet, but it can’t be far now….and you can pay for it in bitcoin or NFTs! 😀


Horowitz's piano sounded great, even in non-ideal situation. He made his last recording in his Manhattan apartment and it sounded great (playing left much to be desired to to advanced age) - perhaps as stereo approaches real life we may be able to reduce or even eliminate the use of room treatments. 

I also agree my stereo also doesn't sound its best on humid days.


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## nwavesailor (Feb 13, 2022)

Caps 'forming' is real and I do understand this. I am, however, not  a tube or piece of wire 'settling' believer. Yes a capacitor forms but 3 months???

I also don't understand why there isn't a straight line improvement as caps form. They get better and t_hen they get worse?._...........come on guys!


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## chesebert

I can accept days and weeks, but months - we are getting into audiophile neuroticism


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## chesebert (Feb 13, 2022)

Pro tip: when you feel like you need an upgrade or your rig used to sound good but no longer, stop listening right away, step away for a few days and evaluate again.


----------



## The Jester

chesebert said:


> Pro tip: when you feel like you need an upgrade or your rig used to sound good but no longer, stop listening right away, step away for a few days and evaluate again.


Or maybe do a little “system maintenance” clean all connections and/or apply a preferred cleaner/enhancer and then allow a day or two to “settle in” ?


----------



## chesebert

The Jester said:


> Or maybe do a little “system maintenance” clean all connections and/or apply a preferred cleaner/enhancer and then allow a day or two to “settle in” ?


That works too. The key is to stop listening


----------



## nwavesailor (Feb 13, 2022)

OK............what the heck is it with the concept of 'settling'? 
What is disrupted to the point of needing this 'settling'?
I don't get it................


----------



## Sampajanna

My DC4 was wow out of the box and then a slow increase of SQ that went on growing for quite some time.


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## chesebert (Feb 13, 2022)

My goodness, if you are in Taiwan, just spend a day in Taipei and you can listen to every DAC on the market that's $10k+ and can probably get the dealer to do shootout for you. If I had that kind of listening resource, that's what I would do and not try to DIY upgrades.


----------



## edwardsean

nwavesailor said:


> Caps 'forming' is real and I do understand this. I am, however, not  a tube or piece of wire 'settling' believer. Yes a capacitor forms but 3 months???
> 
> I also don't understand why there isn't a straight line improvement as caps form. They get better and t_hen they get worse?._...........come on guys!



What's being said and challenged here shows a lot of common sense, but the sense needed here is not common. As Rob Watts says, as usual the matter is much more complex. I don't know enough to understand it, but I do know enough to be confused by it. 

Theoretically a capacitor would just get better, but a real capacitor made with aluminum, polymer, paper, etc., why would it develop linearly? Wouldn't certain frequencies and attributes mature in complex ways depending on a number of physical, chemical, electromagnetic processes? 

Our understanding of audio is so limited and constantly evolving. The whole sea change of understanding electricity as not analogous to flow but propagation is fascinating. The stuff, e.g., folks like High Fidelity are doing with magnetism and SR with quantum induction would've made no sense not too long ago.


----------



## Sampajanna (Feb 13, 2022)

chesebert said:


> I am not sure how Dave is even "semi portable" but okay
> 
> So another high end killer couldn't really kill the high end. Why am I not surprised.
> 
> Why can't people just accept this: you get what you pay for.


Sometimes that is true, but he wasn’t comparing upgraded Mscaler + Dave with cables and DC4 to the Paciific. Never compared that and lampi may come out on top, but modded and dialed in Dave is NOT the Dave, that’s for sure. As many have said, it is Dave 2.0. Whether you want to add the extra funds is personally and some like modding and some don‘t. I really enjoyed the process….


----------



## Sampajanna

chesebert said:


> My goodness, if you are in Taiwan, just spend a day in Taipei and you can listen to every DAC on the market that's $10k+ and can probably get the dealer to do shootout for you. If I had that kind of listening resource, that's what I would do and not try to DIY upgrades.


I have listened to tons of DACs. This modded Dave does things they dont. Whether you like that is taste. I liked it better than all DCS and most MSB, for example. I thought the Reference gave it a run and came ahead in many areas, but that is 50k. Best not to knock what you haven’t heard….


----------



## Sampajanna

Also all discussion of a singular product dont make sense unless you discuss what is being used with them. This is where i think reviews can also mislead us. Synergy is a huge deal. My speakers can take unlimited transparency and never get harsh or fatiguing, so i want the most resolving, transparent front end i can get. Some people have speakers that are forward and highly resolving so a tube system might synergies way better. It all depends what you are looking for. The Dave is highly transparent and resolving, compared to any dac at any price.


----------



## edwardsean

Sampajanna said:


> Also all discussion of a singular product dont make sense unless you discuss what is being used with them. This is where i think reviews can also mislead us. Synergy is a huge deal. My speakers can take unlimited transparency and never get harsh or fatiguing, so i want the most resolving, transparent front end i can get. Some people have speakers that are forward and highly resolving so a tube system might synergies way better. It all depends what you are looking for. The Dave is highly transparent and resolving, compared to any dac at any price.


I think this is why Sean Jacobs' power supplies synergize so well with the Dave. In Jay Luong's big power supply roundup, he rated the DC4 as being in a class by itself in terms of its ability to add corporeal mass to the sound. A power supply that excelled at transparency/resolution at the expense of density would be the wrong mate for Dave in my opinion.


----------



## chesebert

Sampajanna said:


> Also all discussion of a singular product dont make sense unless you discuss what is being used with them. This is where i think reviews can also mislead us. Synergy is a huge deal. My speakers can take unlimited transparency and never get harsh or fatiguing, so i want the most resolving, transparent front end i can get. Some people have speakers that are forward and highly resolving so a tube system might synergies way better. It all depends what you are looking for. The Dave is highly transparent and resolving, compared to any dac at any price.


What speaker has unlimited transparency and resolution? I think you are breaking the laws of physics...


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## Sampajanna (Feb 14, 2022)

“I think this is why Sean Jacobs' power supplies synergize so well with the Dave. In Jay Luong's big power supply roundup, he rated the DC4 as being in a class by itself in terms of its ability to add corporeal mass to the sound. A power supply that excelled at transparency/resolution at the expense of density would be the wrong mate for Dave in my opinion.”

Never put that together, but makes perfect sense. Synergy is all. Another example related to Lampi discussion is that most Lampi users have Wilson, magi o etc which makes sense. DSD dacs dont work in my system. As others have said, they are too warm for my amps/speakers…


----------



## Sampajanna

chesebert said:


> What speaker has unlimited transparency and resolution? I think you are breaking the laws of physics...


I didnt say that. I said they dont get harsh when the transparency is increased in th front end. Unlimited was just a superlative meaning lots. I have Marten speakers, btw


----------



## Sampajanna

I may not have expressed myself well. Sorry if that is the case. I mean they are smooth, even as resolution is increased. My amps also have tube input, so they are relevant as well


----------



## chesebert

Why can't these hi-end digital audio manufacturers with their teams of engineers ever come up with something decent. It appears that whenever they come up with a TOTL product, some "guy" can always come up with solutions to improve on them. How embarrassing... /s


----------



## Sampajanna

Of course. Some people enjoy modding first of all. I enjoy this, why knock it? I’m happy.. And second companies have budgets, marketing and aesthetics to consider. The Dave has a small, strange box, for example. (I like it, but some don’t). Many dac makers understand the importance of power supply. MSB, for example increases power supply up the line, 1 for reference and then 2 for select. Ideon Absolute, which also gives modded Dave a run for its money btw, uses an off the shelf Sabre chip and still costs 30k because they have spent years of time, engineering and etc almost all devoted to power supply. It has something like a dozen supplies in it and tons of power supply filtering…. Some companies top of the line is smooth, like DSD dacs (playback Design is an excellent example of this). Those dacs pair well with highly resolving/forward speakers. They have a great balance of detail and musicality and are also good for people seeking “analogue” sound. A lot of the difference between TOTL of different brands is tonal/taste/spice (not all but a lot) and so synergy/pairing is essential.


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## Sampajanna (Feb 14, 2022)

Just to recap from my system synergy perspective: My amps and speakers are smooth and I havent found a limit to this, no matter how much transparency and resolution i send their way. They don’t get fatiguing. Reviews from other suggest the same, btw. So, i dont need any tonal balance/musicality in my front end. I have it in spades in amp/speakers. So what i need need is transparency/resolution and dynamics in my dac. The Dave does this better than a lot of dacs. Add the M+scaler and soundstage and openess increase. Add the storm cables and a good server/streamer and digital glare resolves (Mscaler helps with that too). Add the DC4 and all these qualities tick up a notch or two + dynamics are increased significantly, including bass  and more. All of that with my amps and speakers outperforms many, many dacs. Even ones that are much more expensive than this whole kit… If i were to upgrade it would be to a used MSB reference… Havent heard Lampi in my system, only with Wilso speakers. Have heard most else….as you said, Taiwan /HK have tons to hear…


----------



## nwavesailor

edwardsean said:


> Theoretically a capacitor would just get better, but a real capacitor made with aluminum, polymer, paper, etc., why would it develop linearly? Wouldn't certain frequencies and attributes mature in complex ways depending on a number of physical, chemical, electromagnetic processes?


Yes, Rob Watts is indeed a brilliant mind!
I can't grasp a capacitor forming and then 'unforming' (?) or getting better and then it gets worse? I believe _My perception _of improvement or of getting worse may be real, but I have a hard time believing a forming capacitor regresses. Then again, I could be wrong!


----------



## audio_1 (Feb 14, 2022)

Don't forget, none of the expensive dacs mentioned above have an M-Scaler. Hence they can't reproduce transients correctly and sound soft imho. I believe Rob Watts is the only dac designer with the mathematically ability and psycho acoustic knowledge who really understands dac performance parameters. No other dacs incorporate
noise sharpers that give 350dB THD and noise in the digital domain, have long tap length filters and no noise floor modulation. Think of the possibilities of the fully transparent dsp in the Mojo 2. Imagine digital room correction and digital loudspeaker or sub-woofer cross-overs without losses!

Just because a dac is more expensive, doesn't mean it's better.


----------



## griff500

chesebert said:


> Why can't these hi-end digital audio manufacturers with their teams of engineers ever come up with something decent. It appears that whenever they come up with a TOTL product, some "guy" can always come up with solutions to improve on them. How embarrassing... /s


Even the best cars can be improved, unless you want to pay millions (and even then people have them customised to their taste).

If you cannot understand why being able to improve something does not mean it was not 'decent' in the first place then you do not understand about product design, intended market and price point, etc.

It's really a bit of a daft thing to say and the sort of comment I associate with people who are on forums just to antagonise and have an argument, otherwise known as trolling.


----------



## STR-1 (Feb 14, 2022)

To those who have a DC4 ARC6 for their DAVE, or have ordered one, what wire have you gone for with internal wiring and with the umbilical (Neotech or Mundorf)?

I don’t expect many will have had the chance to compare Neotech and Mundorf wiring in an ARC6, but I would be interested to learn from those who have what they thought.  Cheers.

PS - I have a standard Neotech DC4 for my DAVE and am considering upgrading to an ARC6.


----------



## Rob Watts

marcmccalmont said:


> I’m sure you’ve been warned of a 3 month break in period. I’m 2 1/2 months into mine. Was better than stock from the beginning but every so often a lesser day then better the next.



Break-in period on PSUs is a classic sign of RF noise creating more noise floor modulation. As electrolytic caps break-in the HF impedance gets smaller thus reducing RF noise by a small amount.

But it's better to fix the problem in the first place by incorporating proper RF filters...  



chesebert said:


> I am not sure how Dave is even "semi portable" but okay
> 
> So another high end killer couldn't really kill the high end. Why am I not surprised.
> 
> Why can't people just accept this: you get what you pay for.



You do not get what you pay for in audio. There are two primary parameters to audio performance - design knowledge and parts cost. Knowledge is many orders of magnitude more important.

Audiophiles often buy vastly inferior and more expensive products because they ignore design knowledge, ignore their listening experience, and listen via their wallets/eyes/brand reputation.


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## MvRBE10 (Feb 14, 2022)

Thats whats mattijs is also was saying to me when yesterday i mentioned this point to him about the breakin and he mentioned the whole alot of silver used inside some designes what can create a vibrant sound and less neutral.

In his design is also the use of mks caps and these have same issues as mkp. So settling in should be a bit the same.


----------



## Darkliner

STR-1 said:


> To those who have a DC4 ARC6 for their DAVE, or have ordered one, what wire have you gone for with internal wiring and with the umbilical (Neotech or Mundorf)?
> 
> I don’t expect many will have had the chance to compare Neotech and Mundorf wiring in an ARC6, but I would be interested to learn from those who have what they thought.  Cheers.
> 
> PS - I have a standard Neotech DC4 for my DAVE and am considering upgrading to an ARC6.


I went for the Mundorf.


----------



## TheAttorney

Sampajanna said:


> I have listened to tons of DACs. This modded Dave does things they dont. Whether you like that is taste. I liked it better than all DCS and most MSB, for example. I thought the Reference gave it a run and came ahead in many areas, but that is 50k. Best not to knock what you haven’t heard….


Which version of DC4 did you have for this comparison? ARC6? Mundorf wiring?
And in what ways was the MSB Reference better still?
I'm just curious as to what further improvements are possible.



STR-1 said:


> To those who have a DC4 ARC6 for their DAVE, or have ordered one, what wire have you gone for with internal wiring and with the umbilical (Neotech or Mundorf)?


I'd like to know this as well. From my past DIY experiments, the Mundorf silver/gold was a superb DC cable, easily beating a Neotech copper (and PH silver) I had at the time.
But it's an expense upgrade option, in the same ballpark cost as the ARC6 upgrade. So any direct experience of this in a DC4 would be useful.


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## marcmccalmont (Feb 14, 2022)

TheAttorney said:


> Which version of DC4 did you have for this comparison? ARC6? Mundorf wiring?
> And in what ways was the MSB Reference better still?
> I'm just curious as to what further improvements are possible.
> 
> ...


If you wait for the capacitor bank mod that I believe Sean is working on ( I’ve sent him details on what I did) it mitigates the effects of a long dc cable I used a very high quality stranded silver plated copper Teflon insulated hookup wire with good results. I shielded them also. My arc6 has Mundorf internal wiring,


----------



## edwardsean

STR-1 said:


> To those who have a DC4 ARC6 for their DAVE, or have ordered one, what wire have you gone for with internal wiring and with the umbilical (Neotech or Mundorf)?
> 
> I don’t expect many will have had the chance to compare Neotech and Mundorf wiring in an ARC6, but I would be interested to learn from those who have what they thought.  Cheers.
> 
> PS - I have a standard Neotech DC4 for my DAVE and am considering upgrading to an ARC6.





TheAttorney said:


> I'd like to know this as well. From my past DIY experiments, the Mundorf silver/gold was a superb DC cable, easily beating a Neotech copper (and PH silver) I had at the time.
> But it's an expense upgrade option, in the same ballpark cost as the ARC6 upgrade. So any direct experience of this in a DC4 would be useful.


Only the 15AWG Mundorf umbilical is in same price range as the Arc6 upgrade, and is even more actually. The standard 18AWG Mundorf is a little over half the price of adding Arc6, and the 18AWG internal full loom is cheapest at 364USD. 

Certainly the Arc6 upgrade will be significantly more substantial than any upgrades to the wiring, internal or umbilical. So if you are deciding between the Arc6 and upgrading to a 15AWG Mundorf umbilical that should be a straightforward decision for the Arc6.

If you're looking at cheaper upgrades, both the 18AWG Mundorf upgrades, internal and umbilical, provide less dramatic, but worthwhile improvements. The difference in prices do reflect the difference in improvement relative to each other. I originally had the standard Neotech copper OCC umbilical, and at the same length, the Mundorf provides both better clarity and fullness of sound. 

For myself, I switched again and moved from Mundorf SG to Neotech UP-OCC silver for both internal and umbilical, and I like that the best. However, that is not on offer and would require a custom or DIY build.


----------



## JTbbb

chesebert said:


> Why can't these hi-end digital audio manufacturers with their teams of engineers ever come up with something decent. It appears that whenever they come up with a TOTL product, some "guy" can always come up with solutions to improve on them. How embarrassing... /s


Actually, these guys may not “improve” the sound, but more likely adjust it to their taste’s.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...the manufacturers usually know how to improve their own products. The products you buy represent a "moment" in time for a development cycle. This factors-in costs, perceived audience/use-case and unit sales forecasts (among other things.). 

Consumers don't like to think about it, but manufacturers sometimes have the next product already in testing or a mature dev cycle when you buy the thing you have. 

Think about it: How do you think this works? A few people get together, design and build a great product, and then go fishing for the rest of their days? 

No matter what you buy, there will usually be something better/faster/bigger/etc. coming along before too long. That's how it all works. These are people designing and building things for people to buy and enjoy.


----------



## chesebert

Rob Watts said:


> Audiophiles often buy vastly inferior and more expensive products because they ignore design knowledge, ignore their listening experience, and listen via their wallets/eyes/brand reputation


If we are not talking about any specific product but the high end market in general, you would have to believe there is vast information asymmetry among well known high end brands with respect to pricing. This is simply not the case. 

Chord is a well known high end audio manufacturer just like dCS, Naim and Linn, to name a few British brands. Chord as a brand is just as well known and liked in the audiophile community as the other brands. I don’t think Chord would deliberately underprice its products relative to the other brands if it believes the performance is equal or better than the other brands. 

To be completely honest the total serviceable market for high end dacs in the $10-50k range is very small (and decreasing year over year). Why would a brand not try to maximize its profit by selling at a price that’s parity to its competitors?


----------



## ecwl

chesebert said:


> If we are not talking about any specific product but the high end market in general, you would have to believe there is vast information asymmetry among well known high end brands with respect to pricing. This is simply not the case.
> 
> Chord is a well known high end audio manufacturer just like dCS, Naim and Linn, to name a few British brands. Chord as a brand is just as well known and liked in the audiophile community as the other brands. I don’t think Chord would deliberately underprice its products relative to the other brands if it believes the performance is equal or better than the other brands.
> 
> To be completely honest the total serviceable market for high end dacs in the $10-50k range is very small (and decreasing year over year). Why would a brand not try to maximize its profit by selling at a price that’s parity to its competitors?


I think Chord has always said that it prices its products as a multiple of the cost of manufacturing. And some manufacturers as you pointed out usually price their products at the highest price point they can based on the prices of comparable products or they estimate how many products they'll sell and then figure out what profits they want to make and then based on the total cost involved from manufacturing and research and development, they price their product accordingly and any extra products they sell is extra profits.

But I do think there is vast information asymmetry in the high-end audio brands. Just think of how many 5-figure DACs out there that basically adds tubes to smooth out the sound of DAC chips. Because DACs are not like cars where you can have horsepowers and 0-60mph performances that everyone can agree on. They are more like luxury watches where there is a technical component that is complicated and obscure and not everyone agrees whether these technical issues matter and then there is a brand name component and the combination of the two determines what the price of the watches are and whether they would sell. So for manufacturers, you have the option of pricing your product higher and selling fewer units or pricing it lower and selling more units. I have to admit, my local dealer always complains that nobody walks into his store asking for Chord, whereas he gets asked about other brands that I believe sell inferior DACs in the same price range. You can argue maybe it's just me who has poor taste in DACs as his other customers are happy overpaying for these other DACs and they would happily explain how those other DACs are smoother or more exciting whereas all I hear are significant distortions. The point is that at least in Canada, Chord does not have the same cache as other brands like Linn, Naim, dCS.

I think most of us are so used to hearing noise floor modulation and transient inaccuracies in almost all the DACs around us, our ears have tuned these issues out. Moreover, most people's home stereo setup have huge room acoustic distortions that makes it difficult for the untrained ear to discern if one DAC is truly superior to another. So I would argue that sadly high end audio markets are not always about technical superiority but a general emotional feeling that a product is worth it. Fortunately, generally, the truly technically superior products are priced higher than the technically inferior product, particularly within the same brand. But there are always gems out there which provides the best performance for our money.

Interestingly, SoundStage Ultra just had an article on speakers addressing this same issue:
https://www.soundstageultra.com/ind...roblem-with-audio-reviewers-and-manufacturers

Ironically, I already saw a bunch of people on Audioshark totally disagreeing with the article. And with speakers, the technical aspects are much more clearly defined yet you can see people arguing emotionally that their favorite speakers that weren't included in the article are technically similar despite third-party published measurements to the contrary.


----------



## chesebert (Feb 14, 2022)

"Magico, Rockport Technologies, Sonus Faber, and Vivid Audio" - I can't even begin to imagine the butt hurt the list must have caused. I do agree with the gist of that article.

If you are reviewing dacs, I don't care who you are, you need to have in your possession (or had in your possession with detailed listening notes over multiple genres of music) any one or more of TOTL dCS, Emm Labs, Playback Designs, Linn, Naim and MSB.

It is not surprising that Steve Gutenberg said during his Emm Labs MA-1 review, that Denafrips Terminator was great but it sounded like "digital music" but MA-1 sounded like "music". If your only and best experience is Terminator, you would think Steve was crazy and Terminator is a giant killer. The same can be said for Holo May and whatever R-2R giant killer you can think of. I have not seen anyone comparing any of these FOTM R-2R dacs against high-end DAC brands.

Not to knock against Dave, but I have seen people move away from Dave to Emm Labs and MSB but not the other way around. Just saying.


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## Sampajanna (Feb 14, 2022)

TheAttorney said:


> Which version of DC4 did you have for this comparison? ARC6? Mundorf wiring?
> And in what ways was the MSB Reference better still?
> I'm just curious as to what further improvements are possible.
> 
> ...


I Have the original DC4 and wiring. You think the upgrade/Mundorf  make that much of a difference?


----------



## zen87192

May I ask if any DAVE owners are using a Melco N-100 with it currently? I’m contemplating a purchase but would like to seek operators comments. Many thanks.


----------



## MvRBE10

I am using aurender n10 but hear good things about the melco. Cant you audition a few and compare that works best because synergy is also a thing on each system


----------



## zen87192

Just listened to the DAVE with Meze Liric closed back headphones. Now….. this you need to listen to…. It is a fabulous match for the DAVE. If you have an opportunity to demo or are indeed looking for a new pair of Headphones for your DAVE I highly recommend that you give these a try.


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## iDesign (Feb 20, 2022)

I recently dowloaded Roon 1.8 (Build 904) and the difference in sound is not subtle with the DAVE+M Scaler. I perceived a degradation in builds 884 and 898 and the latest release sounds more similar to 882 and lower. While there's no obvious evidence in their change log, things sound as they should again. If you're on build 904, you might resist the urge to hit the update button for a while.  Streaming audio is down a dirt road.


----------



## Triode User

iDesign said:


> I recently dowloaded Roon 1.9 (Build 904) and the difference in sound is not subtle with the DAVE+M Scaler. I perceived a degradation in builds 884 and 898 and the latest release sounds more similar to 882 and lower. While there's no obvious evidence in their change log, things sound as they should again. If you're on build 904, you might resist the urge to hit the update button for a while.  Streaming audio is down a dirt road.


There have been various reports of the latest Roon sounding good and several of my friends have been preferring it to other server/players based on sound quality as opposed to just for user interface reasons. I also am tempted to return to Roon instead of Squeeze . . . . .


----------



## alxw0w

Triode User said:


> There have been various reports of the latest Roon sounding good and several of my friends have been preferring it to other server/players based on sound quality as opposed to just for user interface reasons. I also am tempted to return to Roon instead of Squeeze . . . . .


Then try it and report back if it catched on SQ with LMS 
Even though I got used to LMS still browsing classical music is much better with roon.


----------



## Triode User

alxw0w said:


> Then try it and report back if it catched on SQ with LMS
> Even though I got used to LMS still browsing classical music is much better with roon.


I will do. I was quite impressed with what I heard but but my streamer has had to be returned to the dealer and will not be returned for a week or so . . . . .


----------



## iDesign

My experience was that Roon builds 884 and 898 were inherently harsh. I installed 904 while listening to a track and the difference was immediately apparent when I resumed playback.


----------



## Progisus

iDesign said:


> My experience was that Roon builds 884 and 898 were inherently harsh. I installed 904 while listening to a track and the difference was immediately apparent when I resumed playback.


Roon is adamant there is no sound change with builds. I disagree.


----------



## yagislav

How do you get 1.9? My version is 1.8 build 903 and I recently just updated to it but it isn't showing me any available updates?


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## iDesign (Feb 21, 2022)

Progisus said:


> Roon is adamant there is no sound change with builds. I disagree.


I'm glad you've also noticed it. I stopped listening to my DAVE+Blu Mk II for several weeks via Roon because of the degradation. The difference with Build 904 isn't subtle and while the changes they've made may inadvertently impact the quality, I also wouldn't expect them to disclose and confirm their updates _do _change the sound-- at least not to audiophiles who are chasing the pappi of dandelions around in the dust bowl of streaming/network audio.


----------



## endless402

Anyone experienced the following problem with their Dave? 

1) Volume is normally -5. It randomly goes to -55 for about 10 seconds and then goes back to -5

2) screen shuts off for a second and turns back on in the middle of a song. 

Might be a power problem….


----------



## Roasty

endless402 said:


> 2) screen shuts off for a second and turns back on in the middle of a song.



I've had this screen thing happen many times. but not the volume thing you're experiencing. no idea why the screen goes blank though.. i've had two loaner Daves, both of which exhibit the same behaviour.


----------



## endless402

Roasty said:


> I've had this screen thing happen many times. but not the volume thing you're experiencing. no idea why the screen goes blank though.. i've had two loaner Daves, both of which exhibit the same behaviour.


The music stops for 1-2 seconds when it flickers….


----------



## Triode User

endless402 said:


> 2) screen shuts off for a second and turns back on in the middle of a song.


I have had a Dave since they first came out but I always have it on screen 4 option which turns off the screen anyway after a few seconds so sorry I can’t help. I do this as my natural instinct is to try to promote longevity of that component.


----------



## Triode User

endless402 said:


> The music stops for 1-2 seconds when it flickers….


Maybe a slightly poor input connection with a cable or source?


----------



## endless402

Oh weird. It’s going to headphone mode on its own


----------



## Triode User

yagislav said:


> How do you get 1.9? My version is 1.8 build 903 and I recently just updated to it but it isn't showing me any available updates?


The current latest is 1.8. Build 904 was a Mac only bug fix.


----------



## Ards

Triode User said:


> There have been various reports of the latest Roon sounding good and several of my friends have been preferring it to other server/players based on sound quality as opposed to just for user interface reasons. I also am tempted to return to Roon instead of Squeeze . . . . .


Tested the latest Roon and still much prefer it serving squeeze-lite mode rather than RAAT.


----------



## Malcyg

Ards said:


> Tested the latest Roon and still much prefer it serving squeeze-lite mode rather than RAAT.



I agree. Whilst it is still an ‘experimental’ mode on the Innuos Statement, I find it to be extremely stable and it sounds very refined using 1.8 build 903, which is the latest version for my setup. There are occasionally amusing arguments about Roon updates and sound quality on the Roon forum which take me back a few years. Very odd how hostile some people can get over these matters and how absolutely ‘factually correct‘ some folk consider themselves to be. 😁


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## TheAttorney (Feb 21, 2022)

endless402 said:


> Anyone experienced the following problem with their Dave?
> 2) screen shuts off for a second and turns back on in the middle of a song.


If the screen briefly switches off and on again and nothing else is going wrong, then this is normal DAVE behaviour as it saves away current settings (e.g. filter on or off).
It usually happens a little while after you've changed one of the settings. I'm not sure if it also occasionally happens if no settings have been changed.

It's part of the clunky menu scrolling design limitations that I occasionally complain about.
For example, I'm using the cursor left/right action to swap between +ve and -ve phase to see which sounds best and, in the middle of this, the screen momentarily blanks (to save current settings), which means that the phase function is no longer highlighted, which means that my next cursor left/right action will cause the input to change instead of the phase. So I have to press a couple more buttons to get back to my starting point.

It's clunky, but not the end of the world and it's a DAVE "eccentricity" that I just have to put up with.


----------



## AudioDrag

endless402 said:


> Oh weird. It’s going to headphone mode on its own


If DAVE does randomly switch to headphone mode (and by doing so interrupting the 2 channel playback), I guess it is (falsely) detecting a plugged in headphone. If there's no headphone attached, I guess the switch on DAVE's headphone socket is defective. If your DAVE is out of warranty, you could easily open Dave and look for the headphone socket. It's easily accessible.

Or maybe just plugin in and out a headphone (several times) to readjust the contact of the switch.


----------



## endless402

AudioDrag said:


> If DAVE does randomly switch to headphone mode (and by doing so interrupting the 2 channel playback), I guess it is (falsely) detecting a plugged in headphone. If there's no headphone attached, I guess the switch on DAVE's headphone socket is defective. If your DAVE is out of warranty, you could easily open Dave and look for the headphone socket. It's easily accessible.
> 
> Or maybe just plugin in and out a headphone (several times) to readjust the contact of the switch.


Yup turns out there’s dust inside the jack. Jammed a headphone jack in a few times and it solved the problem for now.


----------



## Drewligarchy (Feb 21, 2022)

Have a small conundrum and wondering if any one has experience in this area with the Dave specifically or another setup.

I am starting to demo speakers for a two channel setup I am hoping to build - and was hoping to use the Lumin U1 > Dave/Mscaler > Wave Cables/Opto Dx - all the optimizations I've made to it as the digital front end. Problem is, the way my room is situated I can't really move my headphone setup to where the speakers would be - so I'm looking at a long cable run if I were to do it: probably 25-50 feet (though closer to 25), of balanced interconnects running from the Dave to an integrated amp.

The dealer I'm working with said the Dave XLR output could drive up to 100 feet of XLR cable no problem. This dealer is well-known and widely respected, and it's in his financial interest to sell me another DAC, so I'm inclined to believe him. Still I'm looking for others experiences. I know the depth of soundstage the Dave/Mscaler combo create is fragile - so I don't want to lose that. Has anyone done really long interconnect runs with the Dave - or a preamp or other DAC - with balanced interconnects? The setup creates a few other problems from a convenience perspective but all is workable. My question is related to sound quality alone. I don't want to roll off the high frequencies with excessive capacitance. More worried about that than noise due to running balanced.

From a cable perspective, this leaves me with few choices - I'd likely have to go with something like Mogami, or another pro oriented cable. They are completely flat - which is fine with me - and very low capacitance cable can be obtained, I believe. In the future, I may be able to further optimize this setup - but I'm trying to determine if it makes sense to try and use the Dave with this 2 channel system, or build another system from the ground up - in the long run. Obviously it saves a bunch of money, and money is an object - so I'm not going to be able to get something as high end as the Dave/Mscaler at least to start, if I don't use it..

I know general wisdom is to keep interconnects as short as possible, but obviously in the pro world, they use 100 of feet of interconnects. I was suprised this dealer came back with the recommendation that he did which has made me consider it more as a potential option. He definitely knows his stuff.


----------



## Triode User

Drewligarchy said:


> Have a small conundrum and wondering if any one has experience in this area with the Dave specifically or another setup.
> 
> I am starting to demo speakers for a two channel setup I am hoping to build - and was hoping to use the Lumin U1 > Dave/Mscaler > Wave Cables/Opto Dx - all the optimizations I've made to it as the digital front end. Problem is, the way my room is situated I can't really move my headphone setup to where the speakers would be - so I'm looking at a long cable run if I were to do it: probably 25-50 feet (though closer to 25), of balanced interconnects running from the Dave to an integrated amp.
> 
> ...


Are you therefore contemplating having a power amplifier local to your speakers and which would be connected to the Dave by the 25ft approx pair of balanced interconnects to the Dave? (You could of course use active speakers each with their own built in amplifier as an alternative).

If that is what you are considering then I would agree with your dealer that it should be feasible. I myself often use Belden 8760 XLR cables from the Dave to the amplifier or active speakers. This is a pro cable with a screened twisted pair and I prefer the sound of this compared to star quad configuration. In pro installation terms your cable run is relatively short and so the extra noise rejection of the star quad is probably not required in any case. A cable such as the Belden 8760 hardly costs anything so it would be an easy and cheap experiment to try it in your proposed reconfigured system whilst you demo speakers at home. Or just take the long cables plus your Dave to the dealer if that is where you are trying the speakers.


----------



## Drewligarchy (Feb 22, 2022)

Triode User said:


> Are you therefore contemplating having a power amplifier local to your speakers and which would be connected to the Dave by the 25ft approx pair of balanced interconnects to the Dave? (You could of course use active speakers each with their own built in amplifier as an alternative).
> 
> If that is what you are considering then I would agree with your dealer that it should be feasible. I myself often use Belden 8760 XLR cables from the Dave to the amplifier or active speakers. This is a pro cable with a screened twisted pair and I prefer the sound of this compared to star quad configuration. In pro installation terms your cable run is relatively short and so the extra noise rejection of the star quad is probably not required in any case. A cable such as the Belden 8760 hardly costs anything so it would be an easy and cheap experiment to try it in your proposed reconfigured system whilst you demo speakers at home. Or just take the long cables plus your Dave to the dealer if that is where you are trying the speakers.



Yes - that's exactly what I'm proposing. I'm demoing speakers / amplifiers now - so haven't picked any. But was deciding if I need to get another DAC. Thanks Nick. Looking at Harbeth, Spendor, Graham, etc. I currently am using KEF LS50w - and I like that type of sound. I demoed a pair of Harbeth's years ago, and can't get the sound out of my head. The SHL5+ might be the sweet spot for my room.


----------



## ecwl

Drewligarchy said:


> Yes - that's exactly what I'm proposing. I'm demoing speakers / amplifiers now - so haven't picked any. But was deciding if I need to get another DAC. Thanks Nick. Looking at Harbeth, Spendor, Graham, etc. I currently am using KEF LS50w - and I like that type of sound. I demoed a pair of Harbeth's years ago, and can't get the sound out of my head. The SHL5+ might be the sweet spot for my room.


I agree with @Triode User that running long XLR cables wouldn't be an issue. I don't do this at home but my dealer sometimes does at his store and I never noticed an issue for his demos. 
The bigger issue is that you mentioned you wanted to pair DAVE with an integrated amplifier? I think most of us prefer DAVE direct into a power amplifier. You would only really want an integrated amplifier if you're going to have a turntable or other analog inputs into your speaker system as DAVE's volume control is generally more transparent. That said, there are the small minority of users who prefer DAVE with a preamplifier. In fact, the soundstage depth you like would probably be diminished if you put any preamp in front of it which is why I think you should use DAVE to directly drive a power amplifier.
I also have to admit I'm not a big fan of the Harbeth or Graham sound but I do enjoy KEF. I just worry that paired with a transparent power amplifier, DAVE+amp+Harbeth would sound a little too bright/harsh, compared to your KEF. But then I can also see how DAVE+class A amp+Harbeth could sound very nice. You have an infinite combination to try so enjoy the demos. If you don't find anything you like at your regular dealer, you can always take your DAVE to another store to demo their gear...


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## Drewligarchy (Feb 22, 2022)

ecwl said:


> I agree with @Triode User that running long XLR cables wouldn't be an issue. I don't do this at home but my dealer sometimes does at his store and I never noticed an issue for his demos.
> The bigger issue is that you mentioned you wanted to pair DAVE with an integrated amplifier? I think most of us prefer DAVE direct into a power amplifier. You would only really want an integrated amplifier if you're going to have a turntable or other analog inputs into your speaker system as DAVE's volume control is generally more transparent. That said, there are the small minority of users who prefer DAVE with a preamplifier. In fact, the soundstage depth you like would probably be diminished if you put any preamp in front of it which is why I think you should use DAVE to directly drive a power amplifier.
> I also have to admit I'm not a big fan of the Harbeth or Graham sound but I do enjoy KEF. I just worry that paired with a transparent power amplifier, DAVE+amp+Harbeth would sound a little too bright/harsh, compared to your KEF. But then I can also see how DAVE+class A amp+Harbeth could sound very nice. You have an infinite combination to try so enjoy the demos. If you don't find anything you like at your regular dealer, you can always take your DAVE to another store to demo their gear...



That may be true, and I'd consider it as well. I am looking at some end game integrated amps like the gryphon diablo 120. It's more of a convenience issue. The speakers will be used with the TV as well, and it will be a PITA to use the Dave with the TV, based on where it's located and using RF remotes etc. Looking at convenience for the rest of the family as well.

What I was thinking of doing was either getting the integrated dac in the gryphon, or a more economical option - a Qutest - to grab the toslink signal from the tv, and send it to the integrated via RCA. This way, I can use the integrated as a hub for both TV and music. Qutest is on all the time, so when you want to watch TV, you just turn on the integrated and your off. When I want to listen to music, I pull the Dave out of standby on DAC mode - and can use the volume control on the integrated to listen to music via Roon. I just change the input.

I am not incredibly concerned about the loss of transparency - though I'd like to minimize it. I use the Dave with a Woo Wa33 and Enleum Amp 23r, and since headphone amps are basically tiny integrateds - the signal is running through the volume control on each. Both sound fantastic. I'd obviously like the best sound I can possibly get, but trying to find the best compromise between convenience and sound quality. The other option is to get a second DAC - was looking at something like a Weiss 501 or a Lumin P1, which by all reports are very good; but it seems silly to spend so much on a DAC when I already have a better digital front end that I've invested a lot in. That money can go into speakers/amps. I am not super concerned about using the Dave with Music/Movies - and favor convenience for that. For music, I want the best digital front end possible.

I have some time because I'm still in the early stages of demoing speakers / amps. But thank you for the advice.


----------



## ecwl

Drewligarchy said:


> That may be true, and I'd consider it as well. I am looking at some end game integrated amps like the gryphon diablo 120. It's more of a convenience issue. The speakers will be used with the TV as well, and it will be a PITA to use the Dave with the TV, based on where it's located and using RF remotes etc. Looking at convenience for the rest of the family as well.
> 
> What I was thinking of doing was either getting the integrated dac in the gryphon, or a more economical option - a Qutest - to grab the toslink signal from the tv, and send it to the integrated via RCA. This way, I can use the integrated as a hub for both TV and music. Qutest is on all the time, so when you want to watch TV, you just turn on the integrated and your off. When I want to listen to music, I pull the Dave out of standby on DAC mode - and can use the volume control on the integrated to listen to music via Roon. I just change the input.
> 
> ...


Ah. The TV. Now it all makes sense why your dealer suggested you just buy a new system with DAC for that space.
Now I'm a bit curious, if you do end up with an integrated DAC+amp in the TV room, how would you stream music to the DAC+amp? I'm not sufficiently familiar with Lumin to know what your options are.

But based on everything that you describe and what sounds like you're willing to pay, I think your plan of Gryphon Diablo 120 + Harbeth and long XLR from DAVE to Gryphon is a great plan. I think you'll love it. And for the TV, it probably has a 3.5mm headphone/line out jack. I would just use that to connect to the Gryphon to start with. The issue with using a Chord DAC with TVs is that A/V sync may or may not be an issue. I've been very lucky that A/V sync is not an issue for me. But any long tap length filter can potentially delay the audio excessively, depending on what TV mode you're in. Of course, with a short tap length DAC, you may also have A/V sync issues. Moreover, some over the air TV content inherently has A/V sync issues. That's why I think you should simplify your purchase decision for now by getting integrated amp+speakers and just plan on hooking up the TV via the 3.5mm jack. You can always explore a DAC upgrade for the TV in the future. I think you'll be surprised by how good the TV already sounds even with the cheap DAC from TV to your amp+speakers.


----------



## Drewligarchy

ecwl said:


> Ah. The TV. Now it all makes sense why your dealer suggested you just buy a new system with DAC for that space.
> Now I'm a bit curious, if you do end up with an integrated DAC+amp in the TV room, how would you stream music to the DAC+amp? I'm not sufficiently familiar with Lumin to know what your options are.
> 
> But based on everything that you describe and what sounds like you're willing to pay, I think your plan of Gryphon Diablo 120 + Harbeth and long XLR from DAVE to Gryphon is a great plan. I think you'll love it. And for the TV, it probably has a 3.5mm headphone/line out jack. I would just use that to connect to the Gryphon to start with. The issue with using a Chord DAC with TVs is that A/V sync may or may not be an issue. I've been very lucky that A/V sync is not an issue for me. But any long tap length filter can potentially delay the audio excessively, depending on what TV mode you're in. Of course, with a short tap length DAC, you may also have A/V sync issues. Moreover, some over the air TV content inherently has A/V sync issues. That's why I think you should simplify your purchase decision for now by getting integrated amp+speakers and just plan on hooking up the TV via the 3.5mm jack. You can always explore a DAC upgrade for the TV in the future. I think you'll be surprised by how good the TV already sounds even with the cheap DAC from TV to your amp+speakers.



That's all good advice. The dealer actually recommended I don't buy a DAC, and use the Dave with the XLR run. He said nothing in my price range would be nearly as good (he's also where I got the Dave/Mscaler from).

I was the one questioning whether I should buy a DAC for the TV. The TV is the PITA. Right now I have optical running from the TV directly into the KEFLS50W and it works great. I figured even a modest dac would improve on the sound, but you are right about AV sync. I have a Hugo 2, so what I may try is that connected to the KEFs analog inputs to see if there is any delay. If there is not, I'd imagine I'm ok with the Qutest. 

In terms of streaming music, I'm using Roon entirely. With the current Lumin U1 > Dave/Mscaler, it's already connected to ethernet - so it's a Roon ready endpoint. 

If I did a standalone DAC for the speakers, I'd either get something like a Weiss 501, that is a roon ready endpoint and has a streamer built in, or use my old Auralic Aries Femto as a roon endpoint to stream to a DAC without network functions. 

The Lumin U1 is a network streamer only, and in my opinion it's quite good. It sounds better to me via USB to the Mscaler/Dave than optical from my Auralic Aries Femto - which I didn't think should happen. The Lumin was smoother - despite the electrical connection - and a bit more detailed at the same time. So I didn't pick up any of the hallmarks of RFI. Running the XLRs to the amp is probably the best option.


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## audio_1 (Feb 22, 2022)

Deleted


----------



## SoundeScapes

Drewligarchy said:


> That's all good advice. The dealer actually recommended I don't buy a DAC, and use the Dave with the XLR run. He said nothing in my price range would be nearly as good (he's also where I got the Dave/Mscaler from).
> 
> I was the one questioning whether I should buy a DAC for the TV. The TV is the PITA. Right now I have optical running from the TV directly into the KEFLS50W and it works great. I figured even a modest dac would improve on the sound, but you are right about AV sync. I have a Hugo 2, so what I may try is that connected to the KEFs analog inputs to see if there is any delay. If there is not, I'd imagine I'm ok with the Qutest.
> 
> ...



Another idea. Since you have more or less decided on using long XLR's, have you considered 
using a long optical cable from the TV back to the Dave?

I don't know about Dave but I use the M Scaler and TT2 and while there is too much delay 
with the M Scaler, even in video mode, connecting my TV to the TT2 works really well.
That's something you could try first. I.e. connecting the TV to Dave and if it works out 
you can buy 'just' a good power amplifier and have a simple but very good setup.


----------



## Drewligarchy

SoundeScapes said:


> Another idea. Since you have more or less decided on using long XLR's, have you considered
> using a long optical cable from the TV back to the Dave?
> 
> I don't know about Dave but I use the M Scaler and TT2 and while there is too much delay
> ...



I have thought about this. What I'd probably have to do is convert the toslink to digital coax for the distance - and I bet it would work. The issue is, every time you turn on the tv you have to turn on the dave (which is behind the listening position), switch inputs - and I'd need some RF remote solution. I think I am not that concerned enough about sound quality from TV to do it - at least not at first. Still I'd tried my Hugo 2 and it worked a treat - so I bet a Qutest for TV would be fast and easy: on all the time, it's only job is to convert Toslink to analog for the integrated. Turn on the TV and the amp - and I'm in.


----------



## N Quarter

Drewligarchy said:


> The speakers will be used with the TV as well, and it will be a PITA to use the Dave with the TV, based on where it's located and using RF remotes etc. Looking at convenience for the rest of the family as well.


Take a look at the Lumin P1,leave the Dave where it is.I am hoping to demo one next month.


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## Drewligarchy (Feb 22, 2022)

N Quarter said:


> Take a look at the Lumin P1,leave the Dave where it is.I am hoping to demo one next month.



I was reading about the P1 - very intriguing, and nice that it has HDMI inputs so you can make it the hub of an entertainment and music setup. I have the U1 and love it. I think Lumin makes really high quality gear. That said, it's $10k for a device which likely won't match the abilities of my current digital front end. Leaning toward doing a long XLR cable run and using the Lumin U1 > Dave/Mscaler combo. My Dave is fully optimized as well short of a Sean Jacobs Power Supply. I have both Wave cables and Opto DX, an excellent streamer in the U1, and all plugged into to a PS Audio P12 - which I have found makes a definite impact. If I could use the Dave without a reduction in sound quality from a relatively long XLR cable run, it makes sense to try to. More of the money can go into speakers and amplifiers - and I already have a world-class digital front end, which I love.


----------



## N Quarter

Maybe it will match your current front end. It is getting rave reviews,latest and greatest tech. I am looking to eliminate some boxes,yet up the sound quality and the P1 might be the answer for me.My gear is right in front of my TV though,no need for long cables.


----------



## Cortazar

Hi,
i am waiting for my Dave next week to come and want to use it with my abyss 1266 Phi. My abyss cable have 2x 3 pin output (right an left). My question. Can I use abyss plugged in to Dave xlr output (I have an xlr/xlr adapter) or do I have to use jack output at the front of Dave?


----------



## Drewligarchy

Cortazar said:


> Hi,
> i am waiting for my Dave next week to come and want to use it with my abyss 1266 Phi. My abyss cable have 2x 3 pin output (right an left). My question. Can I use abyss plugged in to Dave xlr output (I have an xlr/xlr adapter) or do I have to use jack output at the front of Dave?



No - It's designed to prevent that (others can elaborate on the reasoning) - but it won't work.

I have a dual XLR > quarter inch with furutech connectors I got from Moon Audio. While no adapter is preferable it sounds great to me. Extremely well built and not too expensive. Of course, while you can get by with the power the Dave has - and it beats all else in transparency - for the Abyss, most prefer an external amp.


----------



## DJJEZ

Cortazar said:


> Hi,
> i am waiting for my Dave next week to come and want to use it with my abyss 1266 Phi. My abyss cable have 2x 3 pin output (right an left). My question. Can I use abyss plugged in to Dave xlr output (I have an xlr/xlr adapter) or do I have to use jack output at the front of Dave?


The TT2 is the only chord dac where you can use the rear XLR's to power headphones. You need to use the front headphone jack of the DAVE. It won't be able to drive the 1266tc to its full potential though.


----------



## genefruit

DJJEZ said:


> The TT2 is the only chord dac where you can use the rear XLR's to power headphones. You need to use the front headphone jack of the DAVE. It won't be able to drive the 1266tc to its full potential though.


Certainly yes to the first and second sentence.  The third has been a topic of debate.  Read the last 50 pages for the rehash and plug them in yourself to answer for yourself.


----------



## Cortazar

Thanks for  your answers. I will be get moon audio adapter to try this out. I have to wait a few weeks for the riviera aic 10 due to covid. One more question. Do you have experience with high end closed back HP that sound good directly via Dave? I mostly listen to jazz and classic (piano, quartets etc)


----------



## Drewligarchy

Cortazar said:


> Thanks for  your answers. I will be get moon audio adapter to try this out. I have to wait a few weeks for the riviera aic 10 due to covid. One more question. Do you have experience with high end closed back HP that sound good directly via Dave? I mostly listen to jazz and classic (piano, quartets etc)



I like the LCD XC and Ether C Flow 1.1


----------



## Cortazar

Thanks for your replays. One further Question. Which streamer do you use for dave. I am hasitating between lumin u1, aurender n20 or fidata (it has some good press). I do have a many music files (hires too) on HDD and do not use roon or tidal. Does anyone of you have an experience with a good cd drive?


----------



## zen87192

Cortazar said:


> Thanks for your replays. One further Question. Which streamer do you use for dave. I am hasitating between lumin u1, aurender n20 or fidata (it has some good press). I do have a many music files (hires too) on HDD and do not use roon or tidal. Does anyone of you have an experience with a good cd drive?


How about a Melco N100EX with  D100 Optical Drive.


----------



## MvRBE10

I got the n10 but n20 is more awsome… get an audition.


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## Clsmooth391 (Feb 24, 2022)

SoundeScapes said:


> Another idea. Since you have more or less decided on using long XLR's, have you considered
> using a long optical cable from the TV back to the Dave?
> 
> I don't know about Dave but I use the M Scaler and TT2 and while there is too much delay
> ...



I tried a long optical and the lip sync issue was really bad. Moved my equipment around and tried a short optical but the problem was still there.

Drewligarchy, I am using a P12, Enleum 23R and the Sean Jacobs DC3 makes a big improvement to the sound.


----------



## adrianm

Cortazar said:


> Thanks for  your answers. I will be get moon audio adapter to try this out. I have to wait a few weeks for the riviera aic 10 due to covid. One more question. Do you have experience with high end closed back HP that sound good directly via Dave? I mostly listen to jazz and classic (piano, quartets etc)


i love my Z1R , i may be an outlier though.


----------



## JTbbb

Cortazar said:


> Thanks for your replays. One further Question. Which streamer do you use for dave. I am hasitating between lumin u1, aurender n20 or fidata (it has some good press). I do have a many music files (hires too) on HDD and do not use roon or tidal. Does anyone of you have an experience with a good cd drive?


How about Innuos?


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## zen87192

JTbbb said:


> How about Innuos?


Yes. InnuOs Zenith MK3 is good. Pair it up with a Phoenix and it’s a very capable combination.


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## Drewligarchy (Feb 24, 2022)

Cortazar said:


> Thanks for your replays. One further Question. Which streamer do you use for dave. I am hasitating between lumin u1, aurender n20 or fidata (it has some good press). I do have a many music files (hires too) on HDD and do not use roon or tidal. Does anyone of you have an experience with a good cd drive?



I think the Lumin U1 is excellent. Previously I had an Auralic Aries Femto - running optical to the Dave. I was unsure whether I would hear a difference with servers/streamers, especially when a non-electrical connection like toslink was used. With the U1 the background was blacker, details popped more, and the sound was smoother - even using USB direct from the U1 to the MScaler. The thing that stuck with me most was the increased smoothness, and effortlessness of sound. From a functionality standpoint, it's just such a pleasure to use. It's been on since I got it about 4 months ago, and never so much as a hiccup when streaming any imaginable file or sample rate. This is how it should be. With my Auralic Aries - I had to reboot it once a week. It hung sometimes and needed to be powercycled.  You may not think this is a big deal, but your streamer/server is the primary transport for most of us - so if operating it is a pleasure, your listening experience will be that much more enjoyable. I didn't know this until I had the opportunity to experience a high-end server. I exclusively use roon, and have roon on an Intel Nuc in a seperate room. So it's ideal for my situation. If you don't use Roon, aurender is a great option. For Roon server and streamer, Innuos and Melco are brands others have mentioned are also good options.


----------



## muski

Cortazar said:


> Thanks for your replays. One further Question. Which streamer do you use for dave. I am hasitating between lumin u1, aurender n20 or fidata (it has some good press). I do have a many music files (hires too) on HDD and do not use roon or tidal. Does anyone of you have an experience with a good cd drive?


I‘m a big fan of the Sonore opticalRendu, esp. if you’re not a Roon user. Mine is paired with an Innuos Phoenix USB reclocker.


----------



## muski

Ards said:


> Tested the latest Roon and still much prefer it serving squeeze-lite mode rather than RAAT.


I also tested the latest Roon (903) and still prefer LMS and Squeezelite.


----------



## number1sixerfan

genefruit said:


> Certainly yes to the first and second sentence.  The third has been a topic of debate.  Read the last 50 pages for the rehash and plug them in yourself to answer for yourself.



It's generally only a debate for people that haven't actually owned and tried the Dave alone and Dave + TOTL amp. But I couldn't agree more, I'd test (both paths) and decide for yourself.


----------



## 801evan

Cortazar said:


> Thanks for  your answers. I will be get moon audio adapter to try this out. I have to wait a few weeks for the riviera aic 10 due to covid. One more question. Do you have experience with high end closed back HP that sound good directly via Dave? I mostly listen to jazz and classic (piano, quartets etc)


Stealth is solid on the Dave. Very close to susvara sound but with more mid bass and fuller bass quantity.


----------



## zen87192

DAVE + Meze Liric..... Brilliant match without breaking the Headphone purse.


----------



## Slim1970

zen87192 said:


> DAVE + Meze Liric..... Brilliant match without breaking the Headphone purse.


I have the Liric in hand for a review as part of the tour. All I can say is this little guy is starting to really impress me. I concur, out of the DAVE, the Liric is very, very good!


----------



## Drewligarchy

To me, best headphone Dave Direct is LCD 5. I have never got my head around the Utopia completely, but the LCD 5 is probably the most transparent headphone I've ever heard - so really benefits from a direct to DAC connection (and, of course, the Dave itself.) I use a touch of EQ (chrono's), and there is no audible compromise. Bass is fast tight and deep, and everything else is like a window - almost electrostat like.


----------



## MvRBE10

Got the utopia now on my dave but the lcd5 is on my list to try out. Very curious about the sound signature. Got the last farad update for the lps for the dave today. New monitor print with new tweaks and silver shielded dc wires from print to dave board. Also set caps to try as extra to put on the board. Due to long dc wires from farad to dave it could so some better but not sure yet thats to test upcoming week. Will plant some photos when installing.


----------



## iDesign

I would pick the Utopia over the LCD-5 any day of the week and twice on Sunday.


----------



## shaylin3

Are there any other dave earphones with excellent direct output?


----------



## adrianm

shaylin3 said:


> Are there any other dave earphones with excellent direct output?


Z1R


----------



## JTbbb

shaylin3 said:


> Are there any other dave earphones with excellent direct output?


HD800S


----------



## Slim1970

shaylin3 said:


> Are there any other dave earphones with excellent direct output?


Audeze LCD-4Z, Meze Elite, Focal Utopia and Stellia


----------



## Reactcore (Feb 25, 2022)

I wonder how this thingy would sound on Dave..🤭






Ok.. direct on Dave's amp is not possible lol


----------



## chesebert

Reactcore said:


> I wonder how this thingy would sound on Dave..🤭
> 
> 
> 
> Ok.. direct on Dave's amp is not possible lol


You buying?


----------



## CBR954RR

Recently purchased Wave Storm cables to go between Dave and MScaler, wow I never thought these would make a difference, superb 👌


----------



## number1sixerfan

shaylin3 said:


> Are there any other dave earphones with excellent direct output?



Just about anything that's relatively easy to drive will sound sublime out of the Dave. Utopia, LCD-5 and my L3000 have all been great pairings with the Dave.. and they are all very different from each other.


----------



## 801evan

shaylin3 said:


> Are there any other dave earphones with excellent direct output?


Susvara and stealth is great on it and they are hard to drive.


----------



## jlbrach

iDesign said:


> I would pick the Utopia over the LCD-5 any day of the week and twice on Sunday.


thats why they make different models because I couldnt disagree more lol


----------



## SoupRKnowva

I just got my Dave tonight, and I don't think ive read anyone else complain about this, changing the volume with the remote is excruciating. you press the volume up or down buttons, and the volume changes immediately, but the light on the remote keeps flashing and you can't press it again until its done, so you can only change 1db every like 2-3 seconds. Is this the case with everyones units?


----------



## shaylin3

I am collecting good headphones with direct dave output based on everyone's opinion, there are several brands of headphones currently available

1.Audeze - LCD XC,LCD-4Z,LCD 5
2.MrSpeakers - Ether C Flow 
3.Dan Clark Audio - Stealth
4.Meze - Liric,Elite
5.FOCAL - Utopia
6.Audio-Technica - L3000,L5000

Here's what others have recommended, but may need amp to perform better

A.SONY - Z1R
B.Sennheiser - HD800S
C.HiFiMAN-Susvara

"I hope everyone can update and improve together"


----------



## midicun

SoupRKnowva said:


> I just got my Dave tonight, and I don't think ive read anyone else complain about this, changing the volume with the remote is excruciating. you press the volume up or down buttons, and the volume changes immediately, but the light on the remote keeps flashing and you can't press it again until its done, so you can only change 1db every like 2-3 seconds. Is this the case with everyones units?


I just double checked my Dave and it does NOT take 2-3 secs per 1db. And the light on the remote does not stay on longer than the press. If you also have a programmable remote, might want to program it and see if the issue is the Chord remote or the DAVE. Hope this helps.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

midicun said:


> I just double checked my Dave and it does NOT take 2-3 secs per 1db. And the light on the remote does not stay on longer than the press. If you also have a programmable remote, might want to program it and see if the issue is the Chord remote or the DAVE. Hope this helps.


Thank you for the sanity check, I swapped the batteries and its good to go now. Ive never seen this sorta failure mode with sorta dead batteries in a remote before. Back to much more convenient listening.

Ill be comparing it to my Rockna Wavedream Signature this weekend


----------



## adrianm

shaylin3 said:


> I am collecting good headphones with direct dave output based on everyone's opinion, there are several brands of headphones currently available
> 
> 1.Audeze - LCD XC,LCD-4Z,LCD 5
> 2.MrSpeakers - Ether C Flow
> ...


From what i've heard, you can add the Stealth to the list of " need an amp", as much as the Susvara . Also, Dan clark himself finds Dave too analytical and uses a tube amp for them even with the TT2. That made me forget about them forever.
    The Z1R and hd800s absolutely do not though. I listen on -36 to -42 db with my Z1R. It's great if you like a big soundstage (bigger than some open backs) and bass  
     The only think on that list I liked as much was the Utopia and Elite. Both are a bit better, being closed backs. The only thing I liked so much that I would buy, is the LCD-5, which i feel are a solid step above everything else. 
 Have not heard 6,2,3 , but i don't feel like i need to at this point.


----------



## 801evan (Feb 26, 2022)

adrianm said:


> From what i've heard, you can add the Stealth to the list of " need an amp", as much as the Susvara . Also, Dan clark himself finds Dave too analytical and uses a tube amp for them even with the TT2. That made me forget about them forever.
> The Z1R and hd800s absolutely do not though. I listen on -36 to -42 db with my Z1R. It's great if you like a big soundstage (bigger than some open backs) and bass
> The only think on that list I liked as much was the Utopia and Elite. Both are a bit better, being closed backs. The only thing I liked so much that I would buy, is the LCD-5, which i feel are a solid step above everything else.
> Have not heard 6,2,3 , but i don't feel like i need to at this point.


Stealth is just -7dB, Susvara is just -4dB on the Dave. Lots of headroom still.


----------



## Reactcore (Feb 26, 2022)

chesebert said:


> You buying?



Nah.. i rather keep 60 grand in my pocket 😅

I bet the DAC section in that marble block wont match Dave.. but i wonder if the integrated amps in HE1's cups could be only powered and used with a line signal


----------



## Reactcore (Feb 26, 2022)

SoupRKnowva said:


> Thank you for the sanity check, I swapped the batteries and its good to go now. Ive never seen this sorta failure mode with sorta dead batteries in a remote before. Back to much more convenient listening.
> 
> Ill be comparing it to my Rockna Wavedream Signature this weekend



Welcome to the club!👍
Are u using a HMS too?

Looking forward to your impressions.. i see wavedream also does upsampling inside


----------



## Ciggavelli

Reactcore said:


> Nah.. i rather keep 60 grand in my pocket 😅
> 
> I bet the DAC section in that marble block wont match Dave.. but i wonder if the integrated amps in HE1's cups could be only powered and used with a line signal


Somebody was selling the DC4 Dave they bought for their HE-1. He said he preferred the HE-1. I’ve never heard the HE-1, but I guess opinions are divided about its DAC


----------



## Reactcore

Ciggavelli said:


> Somebody was selling the DC4 Dave they bought for their HE-1. He said he preferred the HE-1. I’ve never heard the HE-1, but I guess opinions are divided about its DAC



You mean this article:
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/62842-chord-dave-with-sean-jacobs-dc4-lps/

I do see a HE-1 next to it..

You also have your Dave's PSU altered i see


----------



## nwavesailor (Feb 26, 2022)

CBR954RR said:


> Recently purchased Wave Storm cables to go between Dave and MScaler, wow I never thought these would make a difference, superb 👌


I am also impressed using the wave Storms with the Ms and Dave. The Streams are pretty good too, a bit warmer and a little more forgiving on poorly recorded music. I find the Storms are spectacular with well recorded and produced music. They can't 'fix' poor recordings and that's OK. The Storms give me a feeling of 'being there'.

One man's opinion, my ears, your ears and our own preferences.


----------



## alxw0w

nwavesailor said:


> I am also impressed using the wave Storms with the Ms and Dave. The Streams are pretty good too, a bit warmer and a little more forgiving on poorly recorded music. I find the Storms are spectacular with well recorded and produced music. They can't 'fix' poor recordings and that's OK.


Storms should be warmer as they attenuate more of hf.
Right @Triode User ?


----------



## seaice (Feb 26, 2022)

801evan said:


> Susvara and stealth is great on it and they are hard to drive.



Do you mean from the direct headphone output of Dave? Have you tried other amps with Susvara?

I much prefer the direct HP output of TT2 over Dave with Susvara. Both M-Scaled. For me, Dave's HP output is not satisfactory with Susie after hearing Susie with other amps. With TT2, it is a completely different story. M-Scaler>TT2>Sus is actually my headphone end-game for a long time. M-Scaled Dave ended up in my main speaker setup.


----------



## 801evan

seaice said:


> Do you mean from the direct headphone output of Dave? Have you tried other amps with Susvara?



Yes, direct HP out. With spdif in and the Dave behind a line conditioner (or dc4), Sus sounds really good on HP out. Even Hugo 2 can drive the Susvara competently.


----------



## seaice

I have Hugo 2 as well  

Have you tried Hugo TT2? To my ears, the HP out of TT2 is much better than Dave and Hugo 2 in driving Susvara. (I use TT2 and Dave with M-Scaler, but Hugo 2 without it).


----------



## 801evan

seaice said:


> I have Hugo 2 as well
> 
> Have you tried Hugo TT2? To my ears, the HP out of TT2 is much better than Dave and Hugo 2 in driving Susvara. (I use TT2 and Dave with M-Scaler, but Hugo 2 without it).


Ive tried the Hugo tt2 (laptop + USB) in-store. It was having clipping issues at the start too but after a few months later they added a  line conditioner and it sounded much better.  The Hugo 2 and Dave at my place sounds better due to better cables, transport and using spdif in. All 3 DACs are capable of driving the Susvara. Larger variables would be transport, signal chain, power and cable quality vs the delta across the 3 DACs.


----------



## adrianm

seaice said:


> M-Scaler>TT2>Sus


I've auditioned this and i have no idea why people like the Sus so much. Not for long though, but I found LCD-5 out of M-scaled Dave much better.


----------



## Drewligarchy (Feb 26, 2022)

801evan said:


> Susvara and stealth is great on it and they are hard to drive.



I would disagree strongly on the Susvara. Obviously it's all subjective, but the Susvara is orders of magnitude harder to drive than most headphones. I don't think you need speaker amps, as many others prefer, but the Susvara sounds like a different headphone coming out of more powerful amps than the Dave direct. I don't even think I have enough volume with the Dave.

Don't get me wrong, the Dave is an excellent _DAC _paired with the Susvara, the headphone output, IMO, just doesn't have anywhere near the drive to do it justice.


----------



## Drewligarchy

SoupRKnowva said:


> I just got my Dave tonight, and I don't think ive read anyone else complain about this, changing the volume with the remote is excruciating. you press the volume up or down buttons, and the volume changes immediately, but the light on the remote keeps flashing and you can't press it again until its done, so you can only change 1db every like 2-3 seconds. Is this the case with everyones units?



I don't remember this. Buy a universal learning remote, and copy the Dave controls to it. I use a universal remote with all my audio gear - including Dave - and it doesn't have this problem. You can get something $50 - $200 depending on how complicated you want it, but I was using a one-4-all remote (actually the one that came with the v281) for many years and it was a pleasure.  Now I use a Universal URC RF-50, and it's out of production, but still available on amazon. It's a great and very flexible remote - and you can program all your devices into it.


----------



## Drewligarchy

adrianm said:


> I've auditioned this and i have no idea why people like the Sus so much. Not for long though, but I found LCD-5 out of M-scaled Dave much better.



That's what I thought too until I tried the enleum amp 23r. It is a really amp dependent headphone. It might be my favorite headphone now.


----------



## 801evan

Drewligarchy said:


> I would disagree strongly on the Susvara. Obviously it's all subjective, but the Susvara is orders of magnitude harder to drive than the stealth. I don't think you need speaker amps, as many others prefer, but the Susvara sounds like a different headphone coming out of more powerful amps than the Dave direct. I don't even think I have enough volume with the Dave.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, the Dave is an excellent _DAC _paired with the Susvara, the headphone output, IMO, just doesn't have anywhere near the drive to do it justice.


Susvara isn't hard to drive. Only needs 142mw of power. IFI Diablo at low gain being able to power it with good sub-bass is proof in the pudding. 



Drewligarchy said:


> the Susvara is orders of magnitude harder to drive than the stealth.


Just 5dB difference on the Dave. 😁


----------



## zen87192

adrianm said:


> I've auditioned this and i have no idea why people like the Sus so much. Not for long though, but I found LCD-5 out of M-scaled Dave much better.


Definitely… LCD5’s and Meze Liric‘s are totally awesome recommendations with the DAVE. Fed by a Fiio M17 connected via Coaxial is all one needs for both Home listening and Portable Listening.


----------



## Drewligarchy (Feb 26, 2022)

801evan said:


> Susvara isn't hard to drive. Only needs 142mw of power. IFI Diablo at low gain being able to power it with good sub-bass is proof in the pudding.
> 
> 
> Just 5dB difference on the Dave. 😁



I corrected my post as I haven't tried the stealth and was unaware of it's sensitivity (but 5db is a lot). So, maybe it's not a great match for the Dave. I'll let others speak who have heard it.

Still my primary point remains. The headphone output on the Dave doesn't do Susvara justice. It's not merely about volume. If you like it more power to you - I just think you are leaving a tremendous amount of performance with that headphone on the table. I think nearly all that have tried the Susvara on more powerful amps would nearly universally agree. Still it's a subjective hobby, YMMV. I just want to prevent someone from buying a Susvara for their Dave blind - and being forced to buy a big amp.


----------



## zen87192

The Stealth out of the DAVE is pretty good but has a somewhat veiled sound to it compared to the LCD5 and Liric. Obviously, I only talk for what I hear through my own ears….. 🎧


----------



## adrianm

Drewligarchy said:


> That's what I thought too until I tried the enleum amp 23r. It is a really amp dependent headphone. It might be my favorite headphone now.


I know, but if i really wanted to buy an amp for a specific headphone, i'd go electrostatic. I have too many boxes for my tastes as it is. If only Chord would make a Bartok equivalent


----------



## 801evan

Drewligarchy said:


> I corrected my post as I haven't tried the stealth and was unaware of it's sensitivity. Still my primary point remains. The headphone output on the Dave doesn't do Susvara justice. It's not merely about volume. If you like it more power to you - I just think you are leaving a tremendous amount of performance with that headphone on the table.



This has already been covered:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/post-16745341

My chain has been verified by a few people already and they have moved away from speaker amps (and laughed at how they themselves got caught with the hype) and have since preferred the HP out of the Dave, TT2, Hugo 2, pro iDSD. Though I think the pro iDSD guy should be using a pro iCan and drive it with low gain since one needs high gain on the pro iDSD due to lack of volume on unity gain. 

Any issues with SQ on the Chord DACs is mostly signal chain and lack of line conditioner/ psu upgrades and has nothing to do with the built in HP amplifier. The good thing with the tt2 is psu upgrades is more accessible, like using the ifi elite 15v, but one would want to cut off the 2.1mm plug and put in a good 2.5mm plug so no adapter will be used.


----------



## seaice (Feb 26, 2022)

adrianm said:


> I've auditioned this and i have no idea why people like the Sus so much. Not for long though, but I found LCD-5 out of M-scaled Dave much better.



I have never tried LCD-5 with Dave, so I can not comment about this. (I tried some Audeze models in the past, but not from Dave and never to my satisfaction.)

Actually, M-Scaler>TT2>Sus is really the end for me and I am not motivated to try anything new at all.
Before buying TT2 last year, I had lived a long time with M-Scaler>Dave>Suvara directly or with different amps, but after buying TT2, everything is finally resolved for me. My hunt is over.



801evan said:


> Ive tried the Hugo tt2 (laptop + USB) in-store. It was having clipping issues at the start too but after a few months later they added a  line conditioner and it sounded much better.  The Hugo 2 and Dave at my place sounds better due to better cables, transport and using spdif in. All 3 DACs are capable of driving the Susvara. Larger variables would be transport, signal chain, power and cable quality vs the delta across the 3 DACs.



The in-store trials are very inaccurate for these reasons. My dealer also provided me with a very bad source (laptop) for Dave and the in-store Dave/Susvara experience was unsatisfactory and odd. But everything was quickly clear at home and Dave with Susvara have stayed... There are quite many variables in-store / at home... In the long term, my preferences have been totally satisfied with M-Scaler>TT2>Sus only (in comparison with M-Scaler>Dave>directly/whatever amp>Susvara).


----------



## Drewligarchy (Feb 26, 2022)

801evan said:


> This has already been covered:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/post-16745341
> 
> My chain has been verified by a few people already and they have moved away from speaker amps (and laughed at how they themselves got caught with the hype) and have since preferred the HP out of the Dave, TT2, Hugo 2, pro iDSD. Though I think the pro iDSD guy should be using a pro iCan and drive it with low gain since one needs high gain on the pro iDSD due to lack of volume on unity gain.
> ...



I use an enleum amp 23r for my Susvara. It technically is a speaker amp (25 watts), but has a headphone output that uses all that power. I specifically said I don't think the Susvara needs a speaker amp.

This hobby is mostly subjective. Again, if you like it that's great/ My point was simply this. If you did a poll of people who have the Susvara, Dave, and a more powerful amp if Dave leaves performance on the table vs the amp - 95% would say absolutely. That's an important data point for people considering purchase of a $6,000 msrp headphone.

Your opinion isn't less valid, but it goes against the vast majority of people's preferences. If you are reading these forums looking for advice on headphones and pairings - I think it's unfair to state otherwise as you will mislead people.

At the very least, I would caution someone very highly against buying the Susvara for the Dave direct without demoing it. I have about every tweak for the Dave M Scaler possible (Lumin U1 server, Opto Dx with linear power supplies, Wave cables, PS Audio P12), short of a Sean Jacobs power supply. I haven't listened to that power supply and while I imagine it sounds great, I also imagine it doesn't change things enough when powering the Susvara. If I need to buy a power supply for thousands of dollars just to get it to drive a pair of headphones, even if it is phenomenal, someone may be better served buying an amplifier.


----------



## 801evan (Feb 26, 2022)

seaice said:


> The in-store trials are very inaccurate for these reasons.


I totally agree. When I demoed the Dave + Blu, it was so ringy and too much upper mids and treble with some reference KEF. It made a node 2i behind a line conditioner + Tannoy heritage sound much much better and it was a proud experience and tweak with the store that has the node 2i.  A few years passed and I had the Dave at home, it was initially underwhelming and reminiscent of my first demo . After a few days, I got my custom silver bnc cable done for the src dx and things improved a lot but I still enjoyed my modded Diablo more. Then I used a heavier duty line conditioner plus added sorbothanes on the src dx and it improved a lot. Then, I realized I can do mqa using mconnect to the zen stream and the Dave became a top tier dac.

So I can understand the very likely possibility and how in most cases the Dave won't make the Susvara sound good, but just like other well-meaning posters, I want to prevent someone from needing to buy a speaker amp or 5k usd amp just because of hype just to drive a HP that only needs 142mw to reach 102dB.


----------



## 801evan

Drewligarchy said:


> Your opinion isn't less valid, but it goes against the vast majority of people's preferences. If you are reading these forums looking for advice on headphones and pairings - I think it's unfair to state otherwise as you will mislead people.


Thanks but that's the thing. Lots of people have been led astray for a long time and ended up thinking of the same recommendation.


----------



## seaice

801evan said:


> ... I want to prevent someone from needing to buy a speaker amp or 5k usd amp just because of hype just to drive a HP that only needs 142mw to reach 102dB.



Totally agree with this!


----------



## Drewligarchy

801evan said:


> Thanks but that's the thing. Lots of people have been led astray for a long time and ended up thinking of the same recommendation.



Let's agree to disagree. While you think demos don't do the pairing justice - that's really the only way to know. I don't think anyone is being led astray by telling them to demo the Sus on Dave direct first - as the vast majority of people don't think that pairing does the Sus justice. While everyone's ears are different - I think for people who buy without being able to demo, a strong consensus can be the only thing that helps in making a decision. But again, nothing beats a demo.


----------



## 801evan (Feb 26, 2022)

Drewligarchy said:


> Let's agree to disagree. While you think demos don't do the pairing justice - that's really the only way to know. I don't think anyone is being led astray by telling them to demo the Sus on Dave direct first - as the vast majority of people don't think that pairing does the Sus justice. While everyone's ears are different - I think for people who buy without being able to demo, a strong consensus can be the only thing that helps in making a decision. But again, nothing beats a demo.


It's not a 'everyone's ears are different', it's everyone's chains and ac mains quality are different.

In-store demos are only inaccurate in-so-far as it has to deal with the mall's/ commercial zone ac mains quality, situation vs my home setup that happens to have a better chain. Ofc the situation is flipped if the store is decked out with a dedicated streamer and good signal chain vs a game PC + foobar at home. I mean, I was a happy camper hearing it in the store and it being underwhelming coz I don't have to fantasize about wanting one. But turns out the rest of the chain can make or break how one evaluates a device. With that said, people's sentiments on the Dave + Susvara combo has nothing to do with the Dave + susvara but has everything to do with the rest of the chain.

This is exactly why I've been saying the Dave + susvara combo was very underwhelming at the start, but one must work on it to make it stellar, and a beefy amp isn't the answer. GIGO.


----------



## chesebert (Feb 26, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> Nah.. i rather keep 60 grand in my pocket 😅
> 
> I bet the DAC section in that marble block wont match Dave.. but i wonder if the integrated amps in HE1's cups could be only powered and used with a line signal


DAC section is at best your average 1-5k chip-based dac.


----------



## shaylin3

In the update, with the headphones I've tried

Played more than 93%, you can consider using it directly

1. Audeze - LCD XC, LCD-4Z, LCD 5
2.MrSpeakers - Ether C Flow
3. Dan Clark Audio - Stealth
4. Meze - Liric, Elite, Empyrean
5.FOCAL-Utopia, clear mg pro
6. Audio-Technica - L3000, L5000
7. HIFIMAN - HE1000SE
8. Grado - SR325E, RS1

Played more than 90%, maybe need AMP to perform better

A.SONY - Z1R
B.Sennheiser-HD800S,HD800
c.Final audio - D8000pro

May play 87%+, usually requires AMP

a.HiFiMAN-Susvara
b.Abyss - AB-1266 Phi TC
c.Audio-Technica-ADX5000

"Attention! Depending on the system, the amount spent on the last amp may not increase as expected"
"I hope everyone can update and improve together"


----------



## ZappaMan

Can the xlr output of the Dave power my sub - which has these parameters?

Input Sensitivity: 88dB at 8 ohms

If you can’t use the xlr, what other suggestions are there, get an amp?


----------



## Reactcore

Since i have no warranty on my Dave..

I opened it up and did some voltage measuring. As expected theres 5vdc for digital and + and - 15v for the amp which, on the analog side of the pcb, is downconverted to 
+ and - 12v to feed the OP stage components.
This voltage is buffered by four 470uF caps.. 
2 for + and - for each channel.

On my Qutest i placed two 3300uF low Z caps over the voltage lines to the OP to give it more current reserve for my HP.

I guess just like TT2 has.. exchanging them in the Dave could give benefits too.
It wont give more voltage swing but better peak current delivery for better dynamics and speed.

I wonder on which voltage the OP in TT2 runs..


----------



## number1sixerfan

shaylin3 said:


> In the update, with the headphones I've tried
> 
> Played more than 93%, you can consider using it directly
> 
> ...



Having owned over half of this list, I can say this seems pretty accurate imo.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Reactcore said:


> Welcome to the club!👍
> Are u using a HMS too?
> 
> Looking forward to your impressions.. i see wavedream also does upsampling inside


I did not get an M Scaler, I haven't found one for a good deal yet so ill be comparing Dave on its own. Both are used connected direct to my amp though, ive yet to find a pre I thought was as good as the digital volume control in the Rockna, I assume the Dave's pre is just as good or better.


----------



## Reactcore

SoupRKnowva said:


> ive yet to find a pre I thought was as good as the digital volume control in the Rockna


Digital volume always gives better transparency. The basic rule applies.. the less components in the analog chain.. the less signal degradation can occur.

HMS auto source detect is a really welcome feature making a pre's switching function not needed.


----------



## seaice

801evan said:


> ...Then, I realized I can do mqa using mconnect to the zen stream and the Dave became a top tier dac...


Just one question: Does mconnect support a full MQA unfold? My Tidal USB source for M-Scaler-Dave is iFi Zen Stream as well, but I am using Tidal Connect. It is very convenient, as I can easily use any device at home (mobiles, iPads) to play Tidal via Dave. I am not sure about the level of Zen Stream MQA unfolding. Can the Zen stream send fully unfolded MQA to M-Scaler or Dave?


----------



## 801evan (Feb 27, 2022)

seaice said:


> Just one question: Does mconnect support a full MQA unfold? My Tidal USB source for M-Scaler-Dave is iFi Zen Stream as well, but I am using Tidal Connect. It is very convenient, as I can easily use any device at home (mobiles, iPads) to play Tidal via Dave. I am not sure about the level of Zen Stream MQA unfolding. Can the Zen stream send fully unfolded MQA to M-Scaler or Dave?


Mconnect will let the zen stream do one unfold. My technique doesn't let me use tidal connect as well but I get better SQ. What I do is have the zen stream connect to my phone's hotspot then stream tidal using mconnect to Zen Stream @ exclusive mode 5. It's better quality then having my routers + switch on hypsos /LPS power. If you still decide to use Tidal connect, have the loudness normalization off to give better quality.

Nonetheless, this technique makes MQA sound better than it's Hi-Res counterpart, PGGB and HQplayer.


----------



## seaice

Thanks! I use the Zen Stream exclusive mode 3 for Tidal Connect. Normalization off, of course. And I am not 100% sure, but I believe Zen Stream makes the first unfold in my configuration (I will have to verify this).


----------



## 801evan

seaice said:


> Thanks! I use the Zen Stream exclusive mode 3 for Tidal Connect. Normalization off, of course. And I am not 100% sure, but I believe Zen Stream makes the first unfold in my configuration (I will have to verify this).


Tidal connect used to force zen stream to do first unfold which bugged me. Because it always sounds better to let the dac do full mqa unfold. The latest zen stream update gives mqa passthrough options on the ifi app now. 

I like how Dave sounds really good with one mqa unfold. So I can only imagine how it scales with HMS. 👀👀


----------



## seaice

801evan said:


> I like how Dave sounds really good with one mqa unfold. So I can only imagine how it scales with HMS. 👀👀



Greatly  I do not listen without M-Scaler anymore. The SQ differences are not subtle; most things sound much better to my ears.
I have actually bought two M-Scalers - one for my speaker (Dave) setup and the second for my TT2 (Susvara) setup.

I have compared some Tidal MQA / non-MQA versions in my speaker setup (ZenStream>MScaler>Dave) and often preferred the MQA.


----------



## shaylin3 (Feb 27, 2022)

shaylin3 said:


> In the update, with the headphones I've tried
> 
> Played more than 93%, you can consider using it directly
> 
> ...


add supplement
9. Fostex - Th900mk2


----------



## jlbrach

Drewligarchy said:


> I corrected my post as I haven't tried the stealth and was unaware of it's sensitivity (but 5db is a lot). So, maybe it's not a great match for the Dave. I'll let others speak who have heard it.
> 
> Still my primary point remains. The headphone output on the Dave doesn't do Susvara justice. It's not merely about volume. If you like it more power to you - I just think you are leaving a tremendous amount of performance with that headphone on the table. I think nearly all that have tried the Susvara on more powerful amps would nearly universally agree. Still it's a subjective hobby, YMMV. I just want to prevent someone from buying a Susvara for their Dave blind - and being forced to buy a big amp.


low gain on diablo with a susvara....and we still let this guy monopolize these threads?


----------



## Drewligarchy (Feb 27, 2022)

jlbrach said:


> low gain on diablo with a susvara....and we still let this guy monopolize these threads?



The Dave is probably my favorite audio product I've ever bought - and the headphone jack sounds stunning with the right headphones. But in the Susvara, we are talking about the most insensitive headphone in the world. Dave was never meant for it. Will it produce sound? Yes. But amperage is equally as important as wattage, and while headphone amplifiers can certainly be extravagant - they do make a difference, otherwise noone would buy them. Even a relatively modest Ifi Pro ICan will do a very nice job if it's about cost. But, you are already investing in a expensive DAC and an expensive headphone, so ostensibly, you have the ability to spend some money on a headphone amp. Why not get the most out of it you can?


----------



## Lucky87

Anyone here running a Innuos Statement with the Dave?


----------



## Drewligarchy

I am pretty close to diving head first into two channel and buying a pair of Martin Logan Expression 13a, paired with a Pass Labs amp. Source will be my Dave / Mscaler fronted by my Lumin U1.

Anyone use or listen to the Dave/Mscaler with Martin Logan Electrostats, or any other panel speakers? I demoed them with the Pass Int 60 and the Qutest and was blown away. I can only imagine substantial improvements with my Dave/Mscaler at the helm and such a transparent speaker. I spent a couple of days demoing speakers at multiple dealers, demoing Paradigm, Focal, KEF, Credo, B&W, Harbeth, and the Martin Logan Electrostats. I found the Harbeths very involving, especially regarding tone. The electrostats were a couple steps above matching the Harbeths in tone - surpassing them in transparency, dynamics, detail, soundstage width and height, imaging and any other technicalities you can imagine. While electrostats have some limitations you have to work around, I can't get their sound out of my head.

Posting here as I'm very curious if anyone has used these speakers with Chord gear, and Dave/Mscaler specifically. As holographic as both components are - I'm curious as to anyone who may have experience.


----------



## jlbrach

Lucky87 said:


> Anyone here running a Innuos Statement with the Dave?


I am running the zenith 3 with my dave


----------



## Sampajanna

I have Statement + Dave! Love the combo.


----------



## Sampajanna

Drewligarchy said:


> I am pretty close to diving head first into two channel and buying a pair of Martin Logan Expression 13a, paired with a Pass Labs amp. Source will be my Dave / Mscaler fronted by my Lumin U1.
> 
> Anyone use or listen to the Dave/Mscaler with Martin Logan Electrostats, or any other panel speakers? I demoed them with the Pass Int 60 and the Qutest and was blown away. I can only imagine substantial improvements with my Dave/Mscaler at the helm and such a transparent speaker. I spent a couple of days demoing speakers at multiple dealers, demoing Paradigm, Focal, KEF, Credo, B&W, Harbeth, and the Martin Logan Electrostats. I found the Harbeths very involving, especially regarding tone. The electrostats were a couple steps above matching the Harbeths in tone - surpassing them in transparency, dynamics, detail, soundstage width and height, imaging and any other technicalities you can imagine. While electrostats have some limitations you have to work around, I can't get their sound out of my head.
> 
> Posting here as I'm very curious if anyone has used these speakers with Chord gear, and Dave/Mscaler specifically. As holographic as both components are - I'm curious as to anyone who may have experience.


Those Harbeth 40.3 are wonderful. I have heard them in several places and was enamored every time, even with different gear and rooms. Excellent speakers. Panel speakers are cool as well and very different for sure.


----------



## Powersquat

Drewligarchy said:


> I am pretty close to diving head first into two channel and buying a pair of Martin Logan Expression 13a, paired with a Pass Labs amp. Source will be my Dave / Mscaler fronted by my Lumin U1.
> 
> Anyone use or listen to the Dave/Mscaler with Martin Logan Electrostats, or any other panel speakers? I demoed them with the Pass Int 60 and the Qutest and was blown away. I can only imagine substantial improvements with my Dave/Mscaler at the helm and such a transparent speaker. I spent a couple of days demoing speakers at multiple dealers, demoing Paradigm, Focal, KEF, Credo, B&W, Harbeth, and the Martin Logan Electrostats. I found the Harbeths very involving, especially regarding tone. The electrostats were a couple steps above matching the Harbeths in tone - surpassing them in transparency, dynamics, detail, soundstage width and height, imaging and any other technicalities you can imagine. While electrostats have some limitations you have to work around, I can't get their sound out of my head.
> 
> Posting here as I'm very curious if anyone has used these speakers with Chord gear, and Dave/Mscaler specifically. As holographic as both components are - I'm curious as to anyone who may have experience.



I have the Classic 9's and am very happy with them, however I believe the active woofers on the 11A,13A and 15A's make them much easier to integrate into any given environment. My listening room isn't particularly forgiving and it took some time and effort to get the placement right, I think the passive woofers on the 9's are a disadvantage and will contemplate upgrading to the 11A or 13A at some future point.

Another thing to bear in mind, the ML's like space behind them, if you can't get them at least 4 feet from the front wall them some room treatment will probably be necessary to deal with the reflections from the rear of the panels.

The great news is that they sound superb with the Chord MScaler, Dave combo, I use Dave as a pre amp running into the Power Amp section of my Luxman L509 amp. I can't really articulate any further on what has already been written above, my only additional comment, get placement and room treatment right and to my ears they sound sublime with the Chord gear.


----------



## Sampajanna

Love to hear more people’s experience of upgrading the DC4 to AR6 w/ and w/out Mundorf wiring. I am contemplating this upgrade. I know it would be worth it all things equal. For me the biggest bummer is the weeks without my DC4 as if flies around the world….


----------



## audio_1

Sampajanna said:


> Love to hear more people’s experience of upgrading the DC4 to AR6 w/ and w/out Mundorf wiring. I am contemplating this upgrade. I know it would be worth it all things equal. For me the biggest bummer is the weeks without my DC4 as if flies around the world….


I have an AR6 with Mundorf wiring. It really sounds superb. The sound quality, especially the power in the bass is so much better than standard Dave. Unfortunately I have no experience of the standard DC4.


----------



## ZappaMan

Is anyone using omega speakers with their Dave, and is also using a sub woofer without an additional amp in the chain? Is this possible ?


----------



## MvRBE10

ZappaMan said:


> Is anyone using omega speakers with their Dave, and is also using a sub woofer without an additional amp in the chain? Is this possible ?


Yes use a rel eg. 812 these are best connected to the speakers high output. Works sublime.


----------



## ZappaMan

MvRBE10 said:


> Yes use a rel eg. 812 these are best connected to the speakers high output. Works sublime.


Thank you, are you using the xlr output to feed the sub?


----------



## MvRBE10

No it is just attached to the output of the amp or to the binding posts of the speaker.


----------



## audio_1

ZappaMan said:


> Thank you, are you using the xlr output to feed the sub?


I am considering getting subs, and will be using the xlr outputs for the active sub.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Mar 6, 2022)

Today the almost final monitoring board installed. The dc cables from the board to dave are now silver and shielded each and the connector is gold plated. Also ‘triode’ nick leaded me to another upgrade he mentioned that on the dc4 the lenght of the cable mattered so we did some experiments. We want to keep some lenght so we added a few capacitors on the analog voltage and the digital lines upon the monitoring board. And this indeed gives it more blackness and openess. Its a little, but it does and is noticable. This last version feels very musical and open on top of all my earlier findings. Needs some playing this week but first impressions is very good. Here some pictures. The pcb board is also very nice you truelly cant **** up any more however you apply the voltage or the abcence of it it wont let anything thrue if its not correct. Uber safe.


----------



## Sampajanna

Is this going to be an add on ffor sale at some point via SJ?


----------



## MvRBE10 (Mar 8, 2022)

No its a product and development of farad power supplies. And can be pre ordered already. You can find somewere back in this forum or on his website the prices. Rough guess after this final test after a month ready..

But it could be used as add on if you look at it that way. Every +15/-15 and 5v lps can be applied.


----------



## alxw0w

I'm waiting for the final version... and saving pennies


----------



## MvRBE10

It really sounds magical. I switched briefly back to its own old smtp and thats really a different dave. You have to do that to listnen if you dont fool yourself. Almost the same feel when stepped up from tt2 to dave only more musical and detailed….no more digital glare sound you only hear that when you make the upgrade and cannot be unheard also as alot in our hobby 😉


----------



## Lgn3

MvRBE10 said:


> No its a product and development of farad power supplies. And can be pre ordered already. You can find somewere back in this forum or on his website the prices. Rough guess after this final test after a month ready..
> 
> But it could be used as add on if you look at it that way. Every +15/-15 and 5v lps can be applied.


I may be looking in the wrong place but I cannot find any mention of this product on his website, other than a blog. Would you mind providing a link ?


----------



## MvRBE10

On his face book and the lps’s are on the site with prices here below his facebook anouncement:

Thanks for your interest! We have made a special power supply upgrade for the Chord Dave based on our Farad Super3 power supplies. These are available in +5V, +15V and for the -15V the Dave also uses we specially developed the first ever negative regulated supercap supply making use of the Super3 technology.



The advantage of three single supplies is that it gives much better sound quality against a one box solution, because the fuse and power cables are splitted and all supplies are fully separated, so no interactions on each other. We found this to be quite important for best sound. Also it gives more flexibility towards future upgrades (for example with the upcoming Farad Super10 supply). And last sound for digital and analog can be tuned with the individual power cables and fuses, so this gives more possibilities for tuning the final sound even better.



We have designed a special power monitoring PCB which fits exactly in the spot where the original Dave SMPS supply is now. This monitor takes care of the Chord and only will get powered up when all three voltages are present and within parameters. This will protect the Dave during start-up and from any anomalies with the incoming power when operating. Connected to this monitor there are three 100cm Farad Level 2 silver wires for the three power supply units, and at the other side a connector with shielded cables and gold plated contacts which fits the Dave power connector inside.



We provide a special backplate which fits exactly in the slot where the AC inlet is originally. You only need to unscrew the top plate, remove the original AC inlet and SMPS power supply en slide in the assembly we provide. Close the top plate again and you are ready to play. No soldering.



Prices for this setup are:


Cable assembly with 100cm Farad Level 2 silver cables, custom backplate and the power monitor: 1000 euro
3x (+5V, +15V, -15V) Farad Super3 basic version: 1516 euro
3x (+5V, +15V, -15V) Farad Super3 full upgraded (SR Purple fuses, Furutech Rhodium AC inlet) versions: 2158 euro


The Super3 supplies are available in AC voltage ranges 100Vac, 110-120Vac, 220-230Vac factory set. Prices are ex VAT, FedEx courier shipping worldwide is free with all orders in the Farad web shop.



If you want to be kept updated, please follow us on Facebook or Instagram. We also can put you on a mailing list and let you know as soon as we have more to tell about it. We expect to be able to ship the upgrade sets in February.

--

Met vriendelijke groet / With kind regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Cordialement,

Mattijs de Vries, Farad power supplies






www.Faradpowersupplies.com

Utrechtsestraatweg 198

3911TX Rhenen (UT)

The Netherlands



Phone. +31(0)6-43034092


----------



## Lgn3

MvRBE10 said:


> On his face book and the lps’s are on the site with prices here below his facebook anouncement:
> 
> Thanks for your interest! We have made a special power supply upgrade for the Chord Dave based on our Farad Super3 power supplies. These are available in +5V, +15V and for the -15V the Dave also uses we specially developed the first ever negative regulated supercap supply making use of the Super3 technology.
> 
> ...


Thanks for providing that information.


----------



## Somatic

Wondering if anyone prefers the TT2 over the Dave or is Dave better in all aspects? Thanks.


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> Wondering if anyone prefers the TT2 over the Dave or is Dave better in all aspects? Thanks.


I'd call it better in all aspects than even M-scaler+TT2. Except headphone output power maybe. But I've tried the Susvara out of the TT2, and i'd much rather have my Z1R out of Dave.


----------



## Somatic

adrianm said:


> I'd call it better in all aspects than even M-scaler+TT2. Except headphone output power maybe. But I've tried the Susvara out of the TT2, and i'd much rather have my Z1R out of Dave.


Thanks for the info.

I'd like ask any of you for a favor. If you know where to get a solid dealer price for Chord products in the US, please PM with info. I'd be very thankful.

My last connect is not responding.


----------



## DJJEZ (Mar 8, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Wondering if anyone prefers the TT2 over the Dave or is Dave better in all aspects? Thanks.


I've owned both. The dave is better in every way possible apart from the dave is neutral and the TT2 is warmer.

Bigger soundstage both width and depth.
Better separation
Razor sharp resolution
More realism
Better timbre
Deeper bass


----------



## alxw0w

To me the most striking was difference in resolution, clarity, separation.
It's really off the charts on the Dave.


----------



## Somatic

Damn it now I want a Dave.


----------



## sm60

Sampajanna said:


> “I think this is why Sean Jacobs' power supplies synergize so well with the Dave. In Jay Luong's big power supply roundup, he rated the DC4 as being in a class by itself in terms of its ability to add corporeal mass to the sound. A power supply that excelled at transparency/resolution at the expense of density would be the wrong mate for Dave in my opinion.”
> 
> Never put that together, but makes perfect sense. Synergy is all. Another example related to Lampi discussion is that most Lampi users have Wilson, magi o etc which makes sense. DSD dacs dont work in my system. As others have said, they are too warm for my amps/speakers…


I haven’t heard the Sean Jacobs mod for Dave, but I will say based on more than a month of extensive listening, the Lampizator DAC I have blows the stock Dave ( with the  M-scaler) out of the water. There’s simply no comparison. The Lampi reveals layers of information that are just buried in the Dave’s rendition.  The Lampi also is significantly easier to listen to for hours on end. 

But as I said in my original post, this is no knock on the Dave. It’s not built to the same fanatical level of construction. Every resistor and capacitor in the Lampi is a cost no object part, chosen after sustained listening trials. At its price point, the Dave continues to be a superb DAC. But if you’re willing to spend the dough, you can substantially improve on it (as others have done already by investing in Sean Jacobs’ power supply mods). I wanted to preserve my warranty on Dave and chose not to do that and invest instead on a higher priced DAC. Still have my Dave!


----------



## alxw0w

Somatic said:


> Damn it now I want a Dave.


Nahh. If you have opportunity just try to audition it.
A lot of people don't like the Dave.
It's thin sounding to them and bright etc.

As always the best to check with your own ears.
I switched from TT2 to Dave and never regretted it. (You can find my impressions somewhere in this thread)


----------



## alxw0w

sm60 said:


> I haven’t heard the Sean Jacobs mod for Dave, but I will say based on more than a month of extensive listening, the Lampizator DAC I have blows the stock Dave ( with the  M-scaler) out of the water. There’s simply no comparison. The Lampi reveals layers of information that are just buried in the Dave’s rendition.  The Lampi also is significantly easier to listen to for hours on end.
> 
> But as I said in my original post, this is no knock on the Dave. It’s not built to the same fanatical level of construction. Every resistor and capacitor in the Lampi is a cost no object part, chosen after sustained listening trials. At its price point, the Dave continues to be a superb DAC. But if you’re willing to spend the dough, you can substantially improve on it (as others have done already by investing in Sean Jacobs’ power supply mods). I wanted to preserve my warranty on Dave and chose not to do that and invest instead on a higher priced DAC. Still have my Dave!


Which Lampi do you own ?


----------



## adrianm

sm60 said:


> I haven’t heard the Sean Jacobs mod for Dave, but I will say based on more than a month of extensive listening, the Lampizator DAC I have blows the stock Dave ( with the  M-scaler) out of the water. There’s simply no comparison. The Lampi reveals layers of information that are just buried in the Dave’s rendition.  The Lampi also is significantly easier to listen to for hours on end.
> 
> But as I said in my original post, this is no knock on the Dave. It’s not built to the same fanatical level of construction. Every resistor and capacitor in the Lampi is a cost no object part, chosen after sustained listening trials. At its price point, the Dave continues to be a superb DAC. But if you’re willing to spend the dough, you can substantially improve on it (as others have done already by investing in Sean Jacobs’ power supply mods). I wanted to preserve my warranty on Dave and chose not to do that and invest instead on a higher priced DAC. Still have my Dave!


I always thought if i was going to spend more than I did on Dave it would be on a Rossini. Maybe audition an MSB. I had never even considered Lampizator as a company. It just seems like the type of company that doesn't do much R&D, just "fiddles until it sounds good ". Curious if you've compared it to DCS stuff.


----------



## Reactcore

MvRBE10 said:


> On his face book and the lps’s are on the site with prices here below his facebook anouncement:
> 
> Thanks for your interest! We have made a special power supply upgrade for the Chord Dave based on our Farad Super3 power supplies. These are available in +5V, +15V and for the -15V the Dave also uses we specially developed the first ever negative regulated supercap supply making use of the Super3 technology.
> 
> ...



Goed bezig!
Is er een luister mogelijk bij jullie?


----------



## DJJEZ

Somatic said:


> Damn it now I want a Dave.


Add a holo may to your wants list as well amazing as well.

I will be doing a comparison of dave v holo may soon.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Mar 8, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> Goed bezig!
> Is er een luister mogelijk bij jullie?


Je kan bij mij thuis evt luisteren. Ik ben de enige met een proto van deze setup op dit moment omdat we nog wat kleine dingen aan het proberen zijn. Ik werk niet voor farad. Wilde alleen graag een dergelijke setup voor de dave en heb contact met mattijs opgenomen en zijn samen aan de slag gegaan ermee.

Of ik bouw de set even in jou dave is ook zo gebeurt 30min


----------



## Reactcore

MvRBE10 said:


> Je kan bij mij thuis evt luisteren. Ik ben de enige met een proto van deze setup op dit moment omdat we nog wat kleine dingen aan het proberen zijn. Ik werk niet voor farad. Wilde alleen graag een dergelijke setup voor de dave en heb contact met mattijs opgenomen en zijn samen aan de slag gegaan ermee.
> 
> Of ik bouw de set even in jou dave is ook zo gebeurt 30min



Ok nice! Ik ben denk nog niet klaar om snel een PSU uitgave te doen.. ik ben zelf een knutselaar en electronicus.
Heb al eens mn Qutest gemodificeerd met caps over de uitgangstrap.. das na de + en - 12v-8v smps sectie in de Qutest dac. 

Voor Dave is dit 15v-12v intern. Direct bij de uitgangstrap is de plaats waar naar mijn idee de supercap buffer zou moeten zitten ipv bij de hoofd voeding ingang


----------



## MvRBE10

Reactcore said:


> Ok nice! Ik ben denk nog niet klaar om snel een PSU uitgave te doen.. ik ben zelf een knutselaar en electronicus.
> Heb al eens mn Qutest gemodificeerd met caps over de uitgangstrap.. das na de + en - 12v-8v smps sectie in de Qutest dac.
> 
> Voor Dave is dit 15v-12v intern. Direct bij de uitgangstrap is de plaats waar naar mijn idee de supercap buffer zou moeten zitten ipv bij de hoofd voeding ingang


Tis +15v -15 en de 5v voor digitale gedeelte supercaps alleen halen niet de rf eruit die vlakken alleen goed. Bij sommige voedingen kan het wel wat helpen idd. Ben zelf ook ouwerwetse hts elektro knutselaar. Tis ook icm de mscaler de smtp strooit ook weer hoop troep terug de ac in. Woon zelf in bilthoven.


----------



## Peti

Maybe it's just me, but I always refrain from using other languages on head-fi and stick with English. Guess I'm just overly polite??


----------



## Reactcore (Mar 8, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> Tis +15v -15 en de 5v voor digitale gedeelte supercaps alleen halen niet de rf eruit die vlakken alleen goed. Bij sommige voedingen kan het wel wat helpen idd. Ben zelf ook ouwerwetse hts elektro knutselaar. Tis ook icm de mscaler de smtp strooit ook weer hoop troep terug de ac in. Woon zelf in bilthoven.



Oh i forgot my language speaking..
Just measure on the output transistors in Dave.. its not 15 but 12v on them.
I know its not about removing RF but giving extra peak current buffer on the HP amp  out just like its done in TT2.

As for using external battery for RF decoupling.. has anybody tried to use.. say.. ten 12v batteries in series making 120vdc to feed any audio component by its standard power input.. ofc it must use SMps not a transformer.. most take also DC and a range of 110-240v. Then one wont even have to open their device voiding warranty but still loose Net RF. Ok its a little hazardous to the touch


----------



## MvRBE10

Reactcore said:


> Oh i forgot my language speaking..
> Just measure on the output transistors in Dave.. its not 15 but 12v on them.
> I know its not about removing RF but giving extra peak current buffer on the HP amp  out just like its done in TT2.
> 
> As for using external battery for RF decoupling.. has anybody tried to use.. say.. ten 12v batteries in series making 120vdc to feed any audio component by its standard power input.. ofc it must use SMps not a transformer.. most take also DC and a range of 110-240v. Then one wont even have to open their device voiding warranty but still loose Net RF. Ok its a little hazardous to the touch


Ah i see your intention is mostly to improve the hp stage i understand. When changing to the lps externally and some caps inside indeed the low end is improving dramaticly hence adding some more peak power. It was the first big noticable improvement the bass texture layering and prence of it after changing to some good power supply on the dave. I must honestly say i rearly use my utopias on the dave on the 2 way system it all sound way way better than on the headphones. I have the utopias also for sale since a few days.


----------



## MvRBE10

Somatic said:


> Wondering if anyone prefers the TT2 over the Dave or is Dave better in all aspects? Thanks.


Yes its better in all aspects. Hard to imagine went from qutest to tt2 then added mscaler and thought this is it! Wrong some ass demo’d me a dave…. Try it and let me now. Never fall for that trick. It never left my room after that.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

MvRBE10 said:


> went from qutest to tt2 then added mscaler and thought this is it! Wrong some ass demo’d me a dave….


Many people went that way 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## number1sixerfan

DJJEZ said:


> Add a holo may to your wants list as well amazing as well.
> 
> I will be doing a comparison of dave v holo may soon.



Will be looking forward to this. I need a DAC for my office and I want something that contrasts against the Dave well. Holo May is on my list for sure.


----------



## alekc

MvRBE10 said:


> Yes its better in all aspects. Hard to imagine went from qutest to tt2 then added mscaler and thought this is it! Wrong some ass demo’d me a dave…. Try it and let me now. Never fall for that trick. It never left my room after that.


Looking at it from that perspective I'm so happy Dave has been always too bright and to fatiguing for me, especially for longer headphone listening sessions. I simply prefer HTT2 signature more. For better performance I went outside of Chord environment. You know, there is still world out there besides and after Dave


----------



## adrianm

alekc said:


> Looking at it from that perspective I'm so happy Dave has been always too bright and to fatiguing for me, especially for longer headphone listening sessions. I simply prefer HTT2 signature more. For better performance I went outside of Chord environment. You know, there is still world out there besides and after Dave


If it's too "Bright" it's most likely the M-scaler and no power conditioning. I can't stand the M-scaler off battery and optical and it's the main reason I'd consider replacing Dave. I really hope the next M-scaler fixes the RF problem and maybe even adds a streamer. 
   The general consensus is that "better", not just different , would be the Rossini. And that's like 5 times the price i paid for Dave currently. So I can't knock on Dave too much, as much as i hate the wires and boxes. I'm also pretty sure that would be overkill for a headphone setup, but who knows.
    Where  did you find "better performance" ?


----------



## mat.1

Is it worth it to upgrade Hugo TT2 to Dave right now, considering Dave is already 7 year old ?


----------



## adrianm

mat.1 said:


> Is it worth it to upgrade Hugo TT2 to Dave right now, considering Dave is already 7 year old ?


Sounds just as good as 7 years ago


----------



## MvRBE10

mat.1 said:


> Is it worth it to upgrade Hugo TT2 to Dave right now, considering Dave is already 7 year old ?


I think yes because the upgrade part will be in the scaler not the dave at this time. Because its possible to upgrade power supply and scaler part that is what makes the dave so good. If it was a one box solution there would be dave 3.0 by now due to internal upgrades. Or just because to deliver something new. Cash cow model. This is now sort of devided in three parts. Dac/lps/scaler. I love it


----------



## MvRBE10

Want to explore all if it in time… thats the fun


----------



## Reactcore (Mar 9, 2022)

Ragnar-BY said:


> Many people went that way 🤣🤣🤣


I just knew it.. and skipped TT2.  Straight to Dave it was.. but after i checked with Rob if he wasnt working on its successor


----------



## sm60

alekc said:


> Looking at it from that perspective I'm so happy Dave has been always too bright and to fatiguing for me, especially for longer headphone listening sessions. I simply prefer HTT2 signature more. For better performance I went outside of Chord environment. You know, there is still world out there besides and after Dave


Couldn’t agree more wholeheartedly. As I’m typing this, I’m listening to the Dave through a pair of Sennheiser 800S headphones to a marvelous DSD recording of chamber music (see below pic). Heard through my Lampi DAC on my Quad 2905 electrostatics with Audio Research Reference tube electronics, this recording is simply sublime, it is enthralling, it sounds magisterial with life sized images of Jon Manasse’s clarinet and Jon Nakamatsu’s piano. The recording goes from soft to loud really quickly, climaxes are thunderous. On the Dave/Sennheiser 800S, everything is miniaturized. The tone becomes significantly more brittle. Dynamics are compressed. It’s a pale shadow of the sound I hear on the Lampi DAC through my large 5” tall Quads. Some of this is because headphones intrinsically miniaturize the soundstage and compress dynamics, but not all of it. Essentially why people on this forum go to great lengths buying Sean Williams very expensive LPS for the Dave is precisely because the Dave on its own sounds quite wimpy. Someone previously said the power supply on the Dave is a $25 part, I’m not sure how accurate that is. But clearly Dave is built to a price point and parts quality has been economized, not least in the all important power supply. So, I agree, there’s a huge world out there beyond Dave, but only you can decide if it’s worth pursuing that. I’m keeping my Dave to serve as a quasi portable desktop DAC, where it fits the bill nicely. But in my high end system, it’s completely outclassed by other admittedly more expensive DACs.


----------



## MvRBE10

its exactly 32,- dollars you van find it exact number on ali express😂


----------



## adrianm

Reactcore said:


> I just knew it.. and skipped TT2.  Straight to Dave it was.. but after i checked with Rob if he wasnt working on its successor


Same , went from Mojo straight to Dave after listening to everything in between in one sitting.


----------



## adrianm

sm60 said:


> Couldn’t agree more wholeheartedly. As I’m typing this, I’m listening to the Dave through a pair of Sennheiser 800S headphones to a marvelous DSD recording of chamber music (see below pic). Heard through my Lampi DAC on my Quad 2905 electrostatics with Audio Research Reference tube electronics, this recording is simply sublime, it is enthralling, it sounds magisterial with life sized images of Jon Manasse’s clarinet and Jon Nakamatsu’s piano. The recording goes from soft to loud really quickly, climaxes are thunderous. On the Dave/Sennheiser 800S, everything is miniaturized. The tone becomes significantly more brittle. Dynamics are compressed. It’s a pale shadow of the sound I hear on the Lampi DAC through my large 5” tall Quads. Some of this is because headphones intrinsically miniaturize the soundstage and compress dynamics, but not all of it. Essentially why people on this forum go to great lengths buying Sean Williams very expensive LPS for the Dave is precisely because the Dave on its own sounds quite wimpy. Someone previously said the power supply on the Dave is a $25 part, I’m not sure how accurate that is. But clearly Dave is built to a price point and parts quality has been economized, not least in the all important power supply. So, I agree, there’s a huge world out there beyond Dave, but only you can decide if it’s worth pursuing that. I’m keeping my Dave to serve as a quasi portable desktop DAC, where it fits the bill nicely. But in my high end system, it’s completely outclassed by other admittedly more expensive DACs.


A more apt comparison would be using Dave with the Quads, not the 800s, which are..mid tier at best.


----------



## chesebert

MvRBE10 said:


> its exactly 32,- dollars you van find it exact number on ali express😂


Are you saying Chord just stuck an off the shelf power supply unit in their $10k+ dac?


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...I recall it was about 14 bucks...retail.


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## MvRBE10 (Mar 9, 2022)

chesebert said:


> Are you saying Chord just stuck an off the shelf power supply unit in their $10k+ dac?


Yes they did it is a stock medical switched power supply that does sort of its job and they found it sufficiant for there application i guess after some testing…. Amazing considering the difference after adding some good linear power setups on the dave. I imagine you stick to the direction taken once decided and preach it until death. But in the real world everybody that actualy did the upgrade if its jc or farad or whatever are each and every one flabbergasted about the improvement. What makes you wonder what the designer would think after all these years… aaahh well who cares it can be improved so we do and enjoy…


----------



## MvRBE10

MarkusBarkus said:


> ...I recall it was about 14 bucks...retail.


Figure out when you call them in india and want to order 2000 pieces. I did some production in china but that number of 14,- will be more in the 5,- sphere 😂


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## chesebert (Mar 9, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> Yes they did it is a stock medical switched power supply that does sort of its job and they found it sufficiant for there application i guess after some testing…. Amazing considering the difference after adding some good linear power setups on the dave. I imagine you stick to the direction taken once decided and preach it until death. But in the real world everybody that actualy did the upgrade if its jc or farad or whatever are each and every one flabbergasted about the improvement. What makes you wonder what the designer would think after all these years… aaahh well who cares it can be improved so we do and enjoy…


Okay. I was wrong I guess. Unlike other dac manufacturers with proprietary designed SMP for audio, Chord just got lazy/cheap and bought off the shelf SMP not designed specifically for audio.

All my Linns have SMP and those digital front end sound full with high sound density and deep/hard hitting bass.

I just figured if you are selling a $10k dac you would spend some R&D/BOM  money on power supply and power distributions.


----------



## MvRBE10

chesebert said:


> Okay. I was wrong I guess. Unlike other dac manufacturers with proprietary designed SMP for audio, Chord just got lazy/cheap and bought off the shelf SMP not designed specifically for audio.
> 
> All my Linns have SMP and those digital front end sound full with high sound density and deep/hard hitting bass.
> 
> I just figured if you are selling a $10k dac you would spend some R&D/BOM  money on power supply and power distributions.


Yep your absolutely right


----------



## chesebert

sm60 said:


> Couldn’t agree more wholeheartedly. As I’m typing this, I’m listening to the Dave through a pair of Sennheiser 800S headphones to a marvelous DSD recording of chamber music (see below pic). Heard through my Lampi DAC on my Quad 2905 electrostatics with Audio Research Reference tube electronics, this recording is simply sublime, it is enthralling, it sounds magisterial with life sized images of Jon Manasse’s clarinet and Jon Nakamatsu’s piano. The recording goes from soft to loud really quickly, climaxes are thunderous. On the Dave/Sennheiser 800S, everything is miniaturized. The tone becomes significantly more brittle. Dynamics are compressed. It’s a pale shadow of the sound I hear on the Lampi DAC through my large 5” tall Quads. Some of this is because headphones intrinsically miniaturize the soundstage and compress dynamics, but not all of it. Essentially why people on this forum go to great lengths buying Sean Williams very expensive LPS for the Dave is precisely because the Dave on its own sounds quite wimpy. Someone previously said the power supply on the Dave is a $25 part, I’m not sure how accurate that is. But clearly Dave is built to a price point and parts quality has been economized, not least in the all important power supply. So, I agree, there’s a huge world out there beyond Dave, but only you can decide if it’s worth pursuing that. I’m keeping my Dave to serve as a quasi portable desktop DAC, where it fits the bill nicely. But in my high end system, it’s completely outclassed by other admittedly more expensive DACs.


Are you sure your dissatisfaction is not due to the closely miked clarinet? I always find closed miked clarinet doesn't sound good on headphones - they always tend to fall to one side or the other on headphones and sound fatiguing.


----------



## sm60

adrianm said:


> A more apt comparison would be using Dave with the Quads, not the 800s, which are..mid tier at best.


Been there, done that. Before the Dave was “dethroned” by the Lampi in my main system, I used the Dave for about 2 years with my Quads, so you can say I know its sound like the back of my hand. Mid-fi describes how I view the Dave. It’s a fine DAC for driving headphones and a desktop system. That’s why they apparently used a $20 power supply. Gets the job done, I suppose.


----------



## adrianm

sm60 said:


> Been there, done that. Before the Dave was “dethroned” by the Lampi in my main system, I used the Dave for about 2 years with my Quads, so you can say I know its sound like the back of my hand


I'm sure you do, it can't have been that bad if you've used it for over 2 years. I get it though, all this talk of upgrading this and that makes you either want to give in to the latest fad (Wave cables, LPSU's) or just sell the thing and be done with it. The more I read, I'm also more inclined to do the former.


sm60 said:


> Mid-fi describes how I view the Dave. It’s a fine DAC for driving headphones and a desktop system.


 I was not trying to get into a pissing contest, it's just that the headphones were clearly a limiting factor. Using an LCD-5 with Dave was a completely different beast to anything else I've tried. I imagine electrostatics or an Abyss + capable amp would also be a huge step up. What a Lampi would sound like in that setup..no idea.


sm60 said:


> That’s why they apparently used a $20 power supply. Gets the job done, I suppose


I was actually looking at the Bartok and Rossini for a while now, and trying to justify the upgrade somehow, and they announce a 25% price increase across the board. And this was with regular Covid supply chain issues, just give it a year until this new  (hopefully) cold war increases material prices. For the "Apex" models at least they point to "a few months of hard work ". 
    I think it's easy to just throw money at the problem to make it better. If there's a niche that keep demanding more expensive and bedazzled components, good for them. I wonder if the pricing is more indicative of  an economic failure  rather than quantifiable improvements though. They don't seem to hold their value very well on the used market, so I just might see for myself at one point.


----------



## audio_1

adrianm said:


> I'm sure you do, it can't have been that bad if you've used it for over 2 years. I get it though, all this talk of upgrading this and that makes you either want to give in to the latest fad (Wave cables, LPSU's) or just sell the thing and be done with it. The more I read, I'm also more inclined to do the former.
> 
> I was not trying to get into a pissing contest, it's just that the headphones were clearly a limiting factor. Using an LCD-5 with Dave was a completely different beast to anything else I've tried. I imagine electrostatics or an Abyss + capable amp would also be a huge step up. What a Lampi would sound like in that setup..no idea.
> 
> ...


Just because it's more expensive doesn't mean it is better. The way it's designed and manufactured is more important.


----------



## chesebert

audio_1 said:


> Just because it's more expensive doesn't mean it is better. The way it's designed and manufactured is more important.


I think it's important that Chord either designs their own SMP or license an SMP from another hifi manufacturer. Mass produced SMP units are generally not appropriate for audio use.


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## adrianm

Well i've had them both for home auditions on separate occasions, but never at the same time. Initially i liked the LCD-5 more but having them side by side...i much prefer the Elite.


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## Reactcore (Mar 10, 2022)

chesebert said:


> I think it's important that Chord either designs their own SMP or license an SMP from another hifi manufacturer. Mass produced SMP units are generally not appropriate for audio use.


I have read so many posts in my Mojo > Qutest and now Dave journey about SMPS's choices Rob made. Its obvious the RF filtering doesnt stop with the PSU molule
(or wall wart in case of Qutest/TT2) but inside the DAC's are further voltage and RF optimalisations, i saw the filter components myself.
So internal voltages are re-regulated making the PSU module actually 'the first stage' For sure im confident at least all things Inside the DAC are sorted.

See here i found another Rob's explanation reposted by someone:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/more-rob-wattage.10882/

The only thing im hesitant to do is placing SuperCaps directly over the output transistors in the DAVE. just like its done for TT2 so on the HP amp i have a little more peak current reserve for perhaps better dynamics.. (this has nothing to do with RF)


----------



## Reactcore

adrianm said:


> Well i've had them both for home auditions on separate occasions, but never at the same time. Initially i liked the LCD-5 more but having them side by side...i much prefer the Elite.


Have you compared those also with HD800's by any chance?


----------



## adrianm

Reactcore said:


> Have you compared those also with HD800's by any chance?


No, sorry, I've never really liked any Sennheiser's so they were always off my radar. The Z1R are still superb for a closed back. I've tried HEKSE,LCD-4z, Utopias, Stellias, Lirics if those can provide any context. And Susvara on a TT2 for a bit but wasn't crazy about them.


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## chesebert (Mar 10, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> I have read so many posts in my Mojo > Qutest and now Dave journey about SMPS's choices Rob made. Its obvious the RF filtering doesnt stop with the PSU molule
> (or wall wart in case of Qutest/TT2) but inside the DAC's are further voltage and RF optimalisations, i saw the filter components myself.
> So internal voltages are re-regulated making the PSU module actually 'the first stage' For sure im confident at least all things Inside the DAC are sorted.
> 
> ...


Just a wall of text without any substance..sorry man. Step 1 to reduce RF, put your damn SMP in a Faraday cage. There was also no discussion of current capability and transient behavior. You can tell from the discussion that Rob's focus was on digital portion of the DAC, about noise, reference voltage, etc. I am sure Rob did a fine job on the digital portion of the dac.


----------



## MvRBE10

Reactcore said:


> I have read so many posts in my Mojo > Qutest and now Dave journey about SMPS's choices Rob made. Its obvious the RF filtering doesnt stop with the PSU molule
> (or wall wart in case of Qutest/TT2) but inside the DAC's are further voltage and RF optimalisations, i saw the filter components myself.
> So internal voltages are re-regulated making the PSU module actually 'the first stage' For sure im confident at least all things Inside the DAC are sorted.
> 
> ...


Why hesitant? Wont damage seems to me if you put them over the main 12v as you mentioned. Could indeed be possible that some hard to drive cans will just give that bit more bite or slamm. Could be asome combi, lps upgrade and if you mod works it will please two worlds


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## Reactcore (Mar 10, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> Why hesitant? Wont damage seems to me if you put them over the main 12v as you mentioned. Could indeed be possible that some hard to drive cans will just give that bit more bite or slamm. Could be asome combi, lps upgrade and if you mod works it will please two worlds


In my Qutest it worked like a charm for direct driving my HP out of the RCA's but that was also bc Qutest power section was not designed for supplying higher currents to HP's.. just a maybe 50kohm load of a pre-amp.

I opened Dave and unscrewed the PCB but cant take it out to do better measuring on the amp section.. i think it has a hidden screw through the heatsink but the LCD is gluetaped on it and im careful not to pull it too hard..

Has anybody took the PCB out once? On the web are zero pictures to find on it being outside the case..


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## MvRBE10

I see now i follow your aprouch. No i have not tried it yet. I was looking to replace these first three caps on the dc in. These are also low cost and color the sound.


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## Reactcore (Mar 10, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> I see now i follow your aprouch. No i have not tried it yet. I was looking to replace these first three caps on the dc in. These are also low cost and color the sound.



To do that you also have to take the PCB out..

Here my post about what i did in the Qutest:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-qutest-dac-official-thread.869417/post-15399804

In the Dave im thinking on Eaton's 5 farad supercaps (5x 2.7v in series per each + and - 12v rail)

Only issue might be the charge current when emty .. it might trip the overload protection in the PSU.. thats why TT2 has a chargetime when powered up


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## MvRBE10

Its a switched power supply should handle that. Maybe a series resistor for trying first. Or straight to linear.


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## Reactcore

MvRBE10 said:


> Its a switched power supply should handle that. Maybe a series resistor for trying first. Or straight to linear.


I see in yours the 1st switch is on.. mine are all off.. what theyre for?

Theres also the LM317/LM337 voltage regulators in between the SMPS and the OP.. those also have a current limit.. Robs feedback circuit on them would steer them to max during the charge time.

Its the internal power topology what makes me think the cap reserves must be placed directly on the output stage rather than the dac's 15v input power.. at least for HP amp out


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## MvRBE10 (Mar 10, 2022)

Think you have a point on that. Only reason we placed them was to compensate long dc
leads to the dave and test if it would make a difference. On the speakers i heard a difference on the utopias less. Your goal is to add some punch our goal is to remove noise, what also added some punch in the end. But you could be on to something. Not trying is not knowing. About the dipswitches i have no idea. Maybe some more comparison of other daves to see if its a production thing that from some moment in time the diswitch was altered?

You could also try my farad solution for a few days to see if that brings what you want. It improves it almost on every aspect of the dave and i can build it in for you in 15min to test it if you want.


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## Reactcore

MvRBE10 said:


> Think you have a point on that. Only reason we placed them was to compensate long dc
> leads to the dave and test if it would make a difference. On the speakers i heard a difference on the utopias less. Your goal is to add some punch our goal is to remove noise, what also added some punch in the end. But you could be on to something. Not trying is not knowing. About the dipswitches i have no idea. Maybe some more comparison of other daves to see if its a production thing that from some moment in time the diswitch was altered?
> 
> You could also try my farad solution for a few days to see if that brings what you want. It improves it almost on every aspect of the dave and i can build it in for you in 15min to test it if you want.



I forgot to measure the current drawn from it while in use
As seen on your picture the original PSU is rated 6A on 5V, 1.5A on +15V and 0.5A on -15V.. how much reserve does it have..

But i know its not about amps on tap.. its about the OP's voltage modulating with the signal caused by current draw from HP.

If i understood correctly from Rob's writngs, hes compensating the voltage to OP by measuring.
But.. how fast does this go.. and does placing a extreme low Z cap directly on the transistor power pin help.. directly so i bypass even the PCB conductor lines getting fewer resistance


----------



## MvRBE10

Talked to mattijs he says alot of caps after the regulator in general wil not sound better. And indeed the total drop with startup could damage the regulator or not. His advise was just to use good power and maybe replace the regulators with better ones. These old types leave room for improvement. Will dig into this if we can do this. Its indeed strange to add expensive power supplys and leave an old regulator type in its place.


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## MvRBE10

Talked to mattijs he says alot of caps after the regulator in general wil not sound better. And indeed the total drop with startup could damage the regulator or not. His advise was just to replace the regulators with better ones. These old types leave room for improvement. Will dig into this if we can do this. Its indeed strange to add expensive power supplys and leave an old regulator type in its place. 

Have you got a picture of these regulators


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## Reactcore (Mar 11, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> Have you got a picture of these regulators



Sure..




The caps on the right are placed after the LM regulators.
Its 2x 470uF i think in parallel for each voltage
But i cant measure this since i cant lift the PCB out.. the OP transistors are 2222A and 2907A


----------



## MvRBE10

Thanks, saves opening up


----------



## Reactcore

MvRBE10 said:


> Thanks, saves opening up


I made many closeup pics..

Heres a better one of the OP transistors of one channel.
Im still figuring why 2x 2222's i guess its for balance out.

The white relay on the right is for switching HP out connection. (Its c pin is connected to the OP's)


----------



## MvRBE10

What voltage do uou measure there on the right. Could be on the 5v its close to the white 5v part. Alot of 1ohm flash resistors there


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## Reactcore (Mar 11, 2022)

5v is for logic components FPGA, ic's etc.
The + and - 15v is down regulated to about + and - 12v by the LM's for the Amp

In the Qutest is even an extra step:
5V input 1st step up to + and - 12v, then down regulated to + and - 8v to OP


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## MvRBE10 (Mar 11, 2022)

just overthinking it a bit but we have to seperate two issues here the clean power part. Eg. Jc farad or whatever to get rid of noise and improve stability. This has proven its upgrade bij extending bass detail etc the whole mumble jumble which also gives a bit more power to the headphones. I think due to bit more stable current in the source and more detail and bass feeling. And what you are trying to gain more peak power for the hp stage get it a bit more like the tt2.

My rough guess now is by looking at it, better regulators mayby icw some better caps on there could improve things. Only one way to find out.

You cant redesign only improve on whats there already. Japan has become great on that thought


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## Reactcore (Mar 11, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> just overthinking it a bit but we have to seperate two issues here the clean power part. Eg. Jc farad or whatever to get rid of noise and improve stability


The ' noise problem' is more due to RF pushed back into the mains affecting a (HP)amp. Rather than in the DAC.. Rob took good care of that. Bc im only listening to Daves HP out.. the latter dont have my interest. (for now)

I am wild thinking on another 'upgrade' though
Thats in using 2 network SFP's to create a dual fiber data link between HMS and dave
But each SFP has to be powered from inside Dave/ HMS to stay away from the mains RF.

SFP's are so commonly adopted and cheap optic converters.. but i need to study the electric communication side first to see if its even possible.

Im a CCTV engineer and in the past i used 5Mhz video over fiber converters.. the digital ones are useless cause they expect a CVBS signal to process digitally but the older ones modulate any signal on the light emitter. They already have BNC's by nature.
Too bad i dont have any of these at hand to test..


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## MvRBE10 (Mar 11, 2022)

That explains why the difference is much bigger on my two way speaker system than on my headphones. I already noticed that indeed. I sold my utopias yesterday. I dont listen to them that much. Used them last few month for testing the lps upgrade. But everytime i have them on i think “on the speakers it sound two times better” so i hang them back in 30minutes. And my rule is if i dont use it, sell it. Got big profit on it so gonna add some solarpanels next week. Insane power prices these days mannn.

That optical idea is great, maybe rob has also implemeted an optical decoupling in his new hms. Would be a wise path to follow indeed.

One thing is for sure every senseble upgrade on the dave pays off.

Do you have the wave storm cables on your system?

You could try my cables and lps’s to see if it brings the gains you are seeking for.


----------



## alxw0w




----------



## MvRBE10

Exactly the same improvements i notice on the farad….. i say shoot out


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## chesebert

Same kind (probably to a lesser degree) of improvements you get with a better power cable - all part of improvements to power. 

If Chord would only spend a bit more on designing the SMP.


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## Reactcore (Mar 11, 2022)

LOL 600VA and Dave draws less than 40 😄
I wished Hans did also compared using HP out of Dave.. just to confirm my findings that improvents are mainly cause of RF injected back in the mains > amp.


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## Ciggavelli (Mar 11, 2022)

sm60 said:


> Been there, done that. Before the Dave was “dethroned” by the Lampi in my main system, I used the Dave for about 2 years with my Quads, so you can say I know its sound like the back of my hand. Mid-fi describes how I view the Dave. It’s a fine DAC for driving headphones and a desktop system. That’s why they apparently used a $20 power supply. Gets the job done, I suppose.


It’s weird to think of the DAVE as mid-fi, but after thinking on it some more, you might be right. If you narrow the dac arena down to just the high-end, the DAVE would fall in the middle in price, if not lower. Adding the DC4 makes it a $20K dac and then an M-scaler and DC4 for that is another $10K. I really want to compare dacs at that $30K level to see how the modded mDAVE compares. There are quite a few $30K+ dacs, that, at least in cost, could be considered summit-fi.

It’s crazy though, because when I first started in this audiophile thing, the Hugo 2 and Utopias were summit-fi for me. Now I’ve learned that there are better headphones and better amps/dacs.

There really does appear to be some price conditioning that goes on in the audiophile world. If you would have told me in the beginning that I’d have a $30K DC4’d mDAVE, I would have laughed at you. The cost just appeared to be very unreasonable in the beginning. Now, we’re calling it mid-fi


----------



## chesebert

I





Ciggavelli said:


> It’s weird to think of the DAVE as mid-fi, but after thinking on it some more, you might be right. If you narrow the dac arena down to just the high-end, the DAVE would fall in the middle in price, if not lower. Adding the DC4 makes it a $20K dac and then an M-scaler and DC4 for that is another $10K. I really want to compare dacs at that $30K level to see how the modded mDAVE compares. There are quite a few $30K+ dacs, that, at least in cost, could be considered summit-fi.
> 
> It’s crazy though, because when I first started in this audiophile thing, the Hugo 2 and Utopias were summit-fi for me. Now I’ve learned that there are better headphones and better amps/dacs.
> 
> There really does appear to be some price conditioning that goes on in the audiophile world. If you would have told me in the beginning that I’d have a $30K DC4’d mDAVE, I would have laughed at you. The cost just appeared to be very unreasonable in the beginning. Now, we’re calling it mid-fi


I sure hope you didn't dump $30k into a dac blind. Dave with some DIY PSU would not be how I would spend $30k. Chord has never been a high-end brand. That's just me.


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## DJJEZ (Mar 11, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> It’s weird to think of the DAVE as mid-fi, but after thinking on it some more, you might be right. If you narrow the dac arena down to just the high-end, the DAVE would fall in the middle in price, if not lower. Adding the DC4 makes it a $20K dac and then an M-scaler and DC4 for that is another $10K. I really want to compare dacs at that $30K level to see how the modded mDAVE compares. There are quite a few $30K+ dacs, that, at least in cost, could be considered summit-fi.
> 
> It’s crazy though, because when I first started in this audiophile thing, the Hugo 2 and Utopias were summit-fi for me. Now I’ve learned that there are better headphones and better amps/dacs. Same for amps and dacs
> 
> There really does appear to be some price conditioning that goes on in the audiophile world. If you would have told me in the beginning that I’d have a $30K DC4’d mDAVE, I would have laughed at you. The cost just appeared to be very unreasonable in the beginning. Now, we’re calling it mid-fi


It's defintley funny also how this hobby ruins our perception and value of money over time. A $5000 headphone which seems unreachable in the beginning quickly becomes the norm and the same applies for other gear. Once you've spent X amount the next step above seems in reach lol My value of money has been ruined by this hobby 100%
I still think the DAVE is a high end product. Just on the lower end of the spectrum for high end compared to MSB/DCS which is ultra high end.


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## DJJEZ (Mar 11, 2022)

chesebert said:


> I
> I sure hope you didn't dump $30k into a dac blind. Dave with some DIY PSU would not be how I would spend $30k. Chord has never been a high-end brand. That's just me.


Say what you want but if someone was to make a top 10 dac list of the world, the chord Dave would be in it even if its not to everyone's tastes. High end and your definition of it is relative to where you are in your journey In this hobby. I think that definition is different for every single person. For me, Mid-fi stuff is a couple of thousand £ each piece of gear where for others It could be £500.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...IME in my system, the Dave, IF you upgrade the power supply (I was on a DC4), AND if you bypass the Amanero USB (I was on a Denefrips Gaia), it was neck-and-neck with the MSB Premiere dac. A little different sound, but comparable. 

I listened with and without MScaler. That does NOT tip the scales, IMO. It's just different. 

Dave solo, IMO, is mid-level. With the mods, it's excellent. 

That said, the MSB Reference dac (which I subsequenly purchased after demo-ing both MSB dacs, and testing against Dave in many permutations) is better. In my opinion. In my system. It's not that close, either. But it's expensive...


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## chesebert (Mar 11, 2022)

DJJEZ said:


> Say what you want but if someone was to make a top 10 dac list of the world, the chord Dave would be in it even if its not to everyone's tastes.


That's debatable... 
In no particular order: dCS Vivaldi, dCS Rossini, MSB Select, MSB Reference, T+A SDV 3100, Emm Labs DV2, Nagra HD DAC, Weiss 501/502, Playback Designs Dream Dac, Linn Klimax Organik

Bricasti M1, ARC DAC 9 and BAD Reference should be considered as well. I would literally go through that list before I try Dave, to be completely honest.


----------



## GryphonGuy

chesebert said:


> I
> I sure hope you didn't dump $30k into a dac blind. Dave with some DIY PSU would not be how I would spend $30k. Chord has never been a high-end brand. That's just me.



The DAVE is a high-end product even though Chord put it in the Choral range. Dave is very scalable despite Chord initially saying that it was not affected by upstream componentry which we now know is simply not true and now with lower noise power supplies, it scales beautifully.

Even by itself, DAVE was better than the Metronome $30k Signature DAC I had that Metronome was not able to repair (for reasonable cost). Now with the AR6 and Mundorf wiring upgrade, it surpasses that $30K DAC in every single way. Accurate timbre, which was always a hallmark of DAVE, is simply enhanced so even less brain power is required as the sound is simply the sound now (garbage can lid hit with padded drumstick, for example, is just so accurate sounding).

I guess I over-simplify but after 1 month of living with AR6 DC4, It and the DAVE is not leaving my setup anytime soon. I am completely happy with the combo.

Regards
GG


----------



## chesebert

Being completely happy is the only metric that actually matters.


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## Ciggavelli (Mar 11, 2022)

chesebert said:


> I
> I sure hope you didn't dump $30k into a dac blind. Dave with some DIY PSU would not be how I would spend $30k. Chord has never been a high-end brand. That's just me.


It was gradual. I started with a mTT2, traded the TT2 in for a DAVE and then got the 2 DC4s. When I had the mDAVE, I was debated between the DC4s and a DCS Rossini and clock. I figured it was cheaper to get the DC4s than starting off fresh with the Rossini.  I haven’t heard the Rossini, but I really want to. I wonder how it compares to the DC4 mDAVE


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## jlbrach

DJJEZ said:


> It's defintley funny also how this hobby ruins our perception and value of money over time. A $5000 headphone which seems unreachable in the beginning quickly becomes the norm and the same applies for other gear. Once you've spent X amount the next step above seems in reach lol My value of money has been ruined by this hobby 100%
> I still think the DAVE is a high end product. Just on the lower end of the spectrum for high end compared to MSB/DCS which is ultra high end.


same with everything sadly..I remember years ago when a broadway ticket sold for 100 dollars for the first time people went nuts there was all kinds of consternation and then people accepted it and it became the norm and now of course that is a seat in the bathroom lol


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## chesebert

Ciggavelli said:


> It was gradual. I started with a mTT2, traded the TT2 in for a DAVE and then got the 2 DC4s. When I had the mDAVE, I was debated between the DC4s and a DCS Rossini and clock. I figured it was cheaper to get the DC4s than starting off fresh with the Rossini.  I haven’t heard the Rossini, but I really want to. I wonder how it compares to the DC4 mDAVE


That’s what I figured. You went all the way and married Chord without playing around the field.


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## Ciggavelli

chesebert said:


> That’s what I figured. You went all the way and married Chord without playing around the field.


Divorces are common nowadays


----------



## audio_1

I can't understand the posts on the last few pages and the fascination with expensive DACs. Do none of you appreciate Rob Watts work and the uniqueness of the technology in all his DACs, but especially the Dave and mScaler. I admit there are some setup issues that need tweaking but all DACs require tweaking to sound their best. Dave requires at least a good power cord and power conditioner, but ideally an upgraded power supply. The Opto-DX is also mandatory imho. When the DAVE is optically and physically separated from digital source components (and the mScaler) the quality of those components isn't so important. I just use a a simple Intel Nuc running Roon rock.

Hopefully Dave 2 will have a power supply commensurate with its sound quality and also optical connections for the new Choral mScaler. Tweaking will then be no longer necessary and Dave 2 should sound at its best out of the box.


----------



## Sampajanna

The conversation of “best dac” falls into the same iissue promoted by magazines and reviews—that a singled product can be evaluated in isolation of room and surrounding gear. Of course, a reference rig can help a reviewer determine what a single component is doing, but the evaluation of what it is doing is so system dependent. In other words, whether or not they like it will depend on what it is connected to and whether it synergizes  with those components. Another aspect of this not often talked about is the music one primarily enjoys and the relationship music genres have on our appreciation of certain gear. Some audiophiles use music just to hear gear, looking for certain “hifi” effects that they isolate from the same songs over and over. I am a music lover first and foremost, on the other hand. All this changes what gear one should choose. Then finally certain qualities in music appeal to some of us and not others. This relates to Dacs. Where I live there is plenty of opportunity to hear tons of gear in tons of rooms. And traveling around it is easy to see how the room and accompanying gear determine one’s opinion of a product, as does the music played. So does what one is after in a rig. Some want smooth some want detail. I find DSD dacs like many mentioned in the list above of what is “best” to be mushy and lack separation. I dont like their imagining, in other words. And the Dave does timing better than almost all the dacs mentioned, and of course it does the designer focused on that in its creation as a priority. For my system the Dave is better than dCs as well. Like someone stated above, I found the MSB reference to be better overall, but too expensive unfortunately. And budget is, of course, a whole other criteria we all face. I may upgrade dacs one day for sure but I wouldn’t do so because one is more expesive or made some “best of” list, but rather because it paired well with my amps and speakers and added more of the qualities I seek in the music genres I enjoy. I didn‘t view the DC4 upgrade as money added to my Dave that could be used towards a different dac. The DC4 enhances the qualities i love in the Dave—the reason I choose a Dave in the first place… Just my two cents.


----------



## Sampajanna

audio_1 said:


> I can't understand the posts on the last few pages and the fascination with expensive DACs. Do none of you appreciate Rob Watts work and the uniqueness of the technology in all his DACs, but especially the Dave and mScaler. I admit there are some setup issues that need tweaking but all DACs require tweaking to sound their best. Dave requires at least a good power cord and power conditioner, but ideally an upgraded power supply. The Opto-DX is also mandatory imho. When the DAVE is optically and physically separated from digital source components (and the mScaler) the quality of those components isn't so important. I just use a a simple Intel Nuc running Roon rock.
> 
> Hopefully Dave 2 will have a power supply commensurate with its sound quality and also optical connections for the new Choral mScaler. Tweaking will then be no longer necessary and Dave 2 should sound at its best out of the box.


Yes. Amen. I chose Dave. It wasn’t random.  I listened to lots and chose it. Rob Watts is brilliant, IMO. And why is someone with no Dave or anything to add to a conversation about a Dave—it’s setup or use— on a Dave thread commenting over and over about how other dacs are better… Why spend time thus?


----------



## Sampajanna

Ciggavelli said:


> It was gradual. I started with a mTT2, traded the TT2 in for a DAVE and then got the 2 DC4s. When I had the mDAVE, I was debated between the DC4s and a DCS Rossini and clock. I figured it was cheaper to get the DC4s than starting off fresh with the Rossini.  I haven’t heard the Rossini, but I really want to. I wonder how it compares to the DC4 mDAVE


If it means anything, and as i said it is all system dependent, I heard that dac in my system and much, much prefered the DC4 Dave/Mscaler.


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## MvRBE10

The fact that we all can choose, upgrade and listen alot and fiddle with it to our likings or not is all there is. And sharing our opinions and gains, tips etc is all this is about nothing more or less. Just enjoying amongst people that more or less share the same hardware and seeking for there own nirvana without judging but just trying and learning. Everyday. And i must say this is one of the few forums were i feel most of us are comfortable in sharing almost all they enjoy or experience. Thanks for that.


----------



## chesebert

audio_1 said:


> I can't understand the posts on the last few pages and the fascination with expensive DACs. Do none of you appreciate Rob Watts work and the uniqueness of the technology in all his DACs, but especially the Dave and mScaler. I admit there are some setup issues that need tweaking but all DACs require tweaking to sound their best. Dave requires at least a good power cord and power conditioner, but ideally an upgraded power supply. The Opto-DX is also mandatory imho. When the DAVE is optically and physically separated from digital source components (and the mScaler) the quality of those components isn't so important. I just use a a simple Intel Nuc running Roon rock.
> 
> Hopefully Dave 2 will have a power supply commensurate with its sound quality and also optical connections for the new Choral mScaler. Tweaking will then be no longer necessary and Dave 2 should sound at its best out of the box.


I don’t think converting spdif to optical and then back to spdif will give you a good time given the significant increase in jitter from the conversion and imperfect optical  medium. I would think you lose more than you gain with that setup.


----------



## 801evan

chesebert said:


> I don’t think converting spdif to optical and then back to spdif will give you a good time given the significant increase in jitter from the conversion and imperfect optical  medium. I would think you lose more than you gain with that setup.


Ideally cutting the stages and having it right and superior on the first stage is ideal. But until streamers/transport has ocxo and good power quality, multi stages and isolation chains will produce a net positive.

My Pro-ject ds2t with good power + spdif purifier with good power still scales. But my CDT + ocxo with good power and the spdif purifier with good power after it produced a net negative.


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## 801evan

Sampajanna said:


> The conversation of “best dac” falls into the same iissue promoted by magazines and reviews—that a singled product can be evaluated in isolation of room and surrounding gear. Of course, a reference rig can help a reviewer determine what a single component is doing, but the evaluation of what it is doing is so system dependent.


Exactly. There's so much fixation of DAC and amps and this persistence that they must be evaluated by itself and should be able to hold up. Exactly why I got a lot of heat saying the Dave can drive superbly drive the Susvara. Once you get out of the 'its all the same 0s and 1s mindset' and improve your transport and signal chain and also improve ac mains, the Dave is all you need...and this applies to any DAC that cost below or above it.


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## chesebert

801evan said:


> Ideally cutting the stages and having it right and superior on the first stage is ideal. But until streamers/transport has ocxo and good power quality, multi stages and isolation chains will produce a net positive.
> 
> My Pro-ject ds2t with good power + spdif purifier with good power still scales. But my CDT + ocxo with good power and the spdif purifier with good power after it produced a net negative.


Why not just use the optical in the first place given the data stream format is exactly the same? I don’t understand the extra conversions.


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## 801evan (Mar 13, 2022)

chesebert said:


> Why not just use the optical in the first place given the data stream format is exactly the same? I don’t understand the extra conversions.


I agree and it's the same reason I'm not using the opto-dx. I've pursued over-engineering powering the CDT and OCXO with a new psu with 4x more lt3045 than before and silver plugs and the result is amazing. It's like going from a 60 inch tv to 120+ inch.






I'm assuming the protocol is different on the TX and RX since it has to scale to 768. But your paying for the galvanic isolation properties in this setup. I'm not a big fan recommending using a powerbank setup on that too. Actually I'd only use a powerbank to verify the goal that your AC setup should be superior to the powerbank. I tried powering my dac with a powerbank the other day (plus 36x lt3045) and it shrunk the soundstage to the size of how DAPs would present it (like a 20inch tv). If I have the proper voltage to power the OPTO DX
 up and downstream, it would still be a a great opportunity to improve the signal chain from a digital streamer, aside from the OPTO USB.


----------



## sm60

audio_1 said:


> I can't understand the posts on the last few pages and the fascination with expensive DACs. Do none of you appreciate Rob Watts work and the uniqueness of the technology in all his DACs, but especially the Dave and mScaler. I admit there are some setup issues that need tweaking but all DACs require tweaking to sound their best. Dave requires at least a good power cord and power conditioner, but ideally an upgraded power supply. The Opto-DX is also mandatory imho. When the DAVE is optically and physically separated from digital source components (and the mScaler) the quality of those components isn't so important. I just use a a simple Intel Nuc running Roon rock.
> 
> Hopefully Dave 2 will have a power supply commensurate with its sound quality and also optical connections for the new Choral mScaler. Tweaking will then be no longer necessary and Dave 2 should sound at its best out of the box.


I’m unfortunately not convinced at all that 1) the splitting of the M-scaler/Blu with the Dave with two BNC cables is a sensible design 2) Rob’s “million tap” filter etc. is all that significant an  advance in digital audio 3) A hardwired static non-upgradeable design at this stage of progress in streaming audio is a sensible choice. 

My 2 year experience with the Blu Mk2 and the Dave convinced me that it was worth exploring alternatives. I’m very happy with my Lampizator Pacific. Yes, it’s twice as expensive as the Dave, but if I compare the improvements in sound from the $1k Topping D90 to the Dave (which is 13x more expensive) vs the improvements in sound from the Dave to the twice more expensive Lampi Pacific, the latter is a far bigger jump. 

Yes, the Dave is better than the Topping, but not hugely 13x better. It’s largely cut from the same sonic cloth. Both have a lot of trouble unpacking complex musical pieces, or even simpler combos. My neighbor, back when I lived in Massachusetts,  played double bass for the Boston Symphony, but had a lovely jazz trio gig called 3rd String Trio. Their CD of lovely Parisian cafe music features a banjo, a guitar and a harmonium. The Topping and the Dave consistently blur the musical lines, making it hard to tease apart these three instruments. On the Lampi, it’s a whole another world where the three instruments are carved out in a distinct sonic landscape and you can effortlessly separate the lines. On much more complex music, e.g., a Bruckner symphony or Duke Ellington’s Jazz Party, the differences are even greater. 

To me it’s no contest. I haven’t heard the recent dCS DACs or the MSB Reference DAC.  I will emphasize I am comparing against the stock Dave, not the upgraded Dave with Sean’s LPS. That would make an interesting comparison, as the price for the combo with the M-scaler is the same as the Lampi. 

All that said, the Dave has some advantages. It is much smaller and lighter than the Lampi, and doesn’t require expensive tube rolling. The Dave can be used with headphones. That’s why I’m still keeping my Dave. But I have no desire to bring it back into my main system anymore. It’s primary use is as a headphone tabletop DAC, which is like the smaller Chord DACs like the Qutest or the TT2. 

Also these are listening room and system dependent choices. There’s no single best choice.  I listen in a 6000 cubic foot space with 5” feet tall Quad Electrostatics combined with two massive REL G1 Mk2 subs, being driven by two huge ARC tube mono blocks with 16 KT 120 tubes. In a system of this caliber, the Dave is not competitive with the much larger and massive Lampi. On a smaller system with bookshelf speakers and a smaller room, the Dave might be a better choice.


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## Sampajanna

I agree. It is all system/budget/music dependent. I suspect people who like the Playback or EMM labs dacs, for example, have Wilson’s, magicos, YG or similar speakers that are Uber detailed, neutral and forward. Such dacs tame these speakers and make a pleasing, liquid tone. My speakers and amps are a hair warm of neutral. Marten speakers sound musical no matter the gear in my experience. My AVM Ovation 8.3 amps have tube input stage. They arent tubey at all, but are a hair warm or “organic” or what have you….

Anyway, I may have the opportunity in the next couple weeks to audition a fully-loaded Lampizator Pacific (balanced with Volume Control) in my home vs the Dave/Mscaler fully loaded with 2 SJ PSU and storm cables… I also have the option to buy the Lampi, so we will see what we see….


----------



## Sampajanna

PS I listen to a HUGE variety of music, from electronics/ambient to jazz, rock and lots of world music. Occasionally, classical and opera as well….


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## Sampajanna

PS I fundamentally disagree with the Topping and Dave in the same sentence bit....


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## GoldenOne

So other than the limited measurements from Stereophile there were none available for the DAVE afaik.

I've now done a fairly thorough set if anyone might be curious https://goldensound.audio/2022/03/14/chord-dave-measurements-with-mscaler/

If there is anything specific someone would like me to test before these go back to the owner lmk


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## chesebert

So Dave is essentially a multi bit modulator with high tap reconstruction filter with discrete opamp output?


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## jlbrach

Sampajanna said:


> PS I fundamentally disagree with the Topping and Dave in the same sentence bit....


yes, he lost me mentioning the 2 together


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## 801evan

Another stab at the Dave from the purveyors of Holo Audio? Lol. Weak.


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## sm60

Sampajanna said:


> PS I fundamentally disagree with the Topping and Dave in the same sentence bit....


Yes, I thought putting the Topping and the Dave in the same bucket might rile some of you 😀

First, that assessment is based on listening to the Topping in my system, the original one with the fancy AKM DAC, not the more recent one that has a different DAC as that AKM factory burned down recently. The Topping offers stunning value for money. Measurements are textbook state of the art. Yes, the Dave is better, but 13x better? No. 

I firmly believe DAC technology only gets you so far. It’s what you do afterwards that makes all the difference. Both the Dave and the Topping use off the shelf $10 parts and a measly power supply. That basically kills any hope of playing with the “big boy” DACs like the Lampi. The analog section matters. If Chord wants to play in the big league, they need to step up their game. Reusing a $20 medical power supply, as someone here pointed out,  and using bargain basement parts is not going to cut it, no matter what whiz bang M-scaling and million tap filtering you do. The analog section matters hugely. 

Let me explain it another way. I’m a big vinyl lover, having had quality turntables for 30+ years. One thing I learned early was the phono stage matters hugely. I have several at home, all the way from the Uber expensive Audio Research Reference Phono 3SE tube unit to a much cheaper Primare solid state phono stage. The ARC 3SE is 40+ pounds, basically identical to their ARC Reference 6SE no holds barred preamp. It is fully balanced with 3 6HP30 tubes per channel with a massive tube rectified power supply. it has 74dB of gain for the low output moving coil and all remote accessible control of the loading. It’s utterly noiseless even with my 0.2mV Koetsu Onyx Agate Platinum. It is mind blowingly stunning in its sheer dynamics and resolution, but always musical and refined. It leaves the Primare in the dust, even though the Primare is a good solid state phono stage with R-core transformers etc. But unlike the ARC, it’s not a cost no object design. I can use a $100 Shure with the ARC 3SE and still be blown away by its sheer splendor. Vinyl sounds like master tape. There’s absolutely no sense of hearing a record playing  unless  you have a really noisy album surface. And with the Miyajima Infinity Zero mono cartridge, mono recordings have a realism that the best digital still does not match in my experience. 

You would think that amplifying a 0.2mV signal can’t be all that hard. Heck, you can do RIAA equalization on a single chip, which is what you find on home theater receivers. They sound awful! 

The reason I lumped the Topping and the Dave in the same bucket is that they both treat the analog section as an afterthought, the main focus in both these DACs is the digital upscaling and the D-to-A conversion. In my experience, that doesn’t get you state of the art performance compared with DACs that go the extra mile in the power supply or analog design. The MSB Reference DAC, which costs several times what even the Lampi costs, pushes the power supply design to even greater heights, weighing in its fully tricked out form to more than 80 pounds. 

I used for many years the Mark Levinson 32 preamp, which weighed almost 75-80 pounds, a big chunk of which was the external power supply module that literally regenerated clean A/C from your noisy A/C wall socket. If you look at its measurements in Stereophile, even today 30 years later, it beats everything else — noise levels are -140dB down. You could hear that in its solidity of sound. 

So, hopefully that explains why I think the Topping and Dave are cut from the same sonic cloth. Apologize for the lengthy explanation!


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## iDesign (Mar 14, 2022)

sm60 said:


> Yes, I thought putting the Topping and the Dave in the same bucket might rile some of you 😀
> 
> First, that assessment is based on listening to the Topping in my system, the original one with the fancy AKM DAC, not the more recent one that has a different DAC as that AKM factory burned down recently. The Topping offers stunning value for money. Measurements are textbook state of the art. Yes, the Dave is better, but 13x better? No.
> 
> ...


Great post. You should start a Lampizator thread— exactly the info I was looking for.


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## Sampajanna (Mar 15, 2022)

sm60 said:


> Yes, I thought putting the Topping and the Dave in the same bucket might rile some of you 😀
> 
> First, that assessment is based on listening to the Topping in my system, the original one with the fancy AKM DAC, not the more recent one that has a different DAC as that AKM factory burned down recently. The Topping offers stunning value for money. Measurements are textbook state of the art. Yes, the Dave is better, but 13x better? No.
> 
> ...


Topping, as you say, makes great dacs for their price and they are great for desktop headphone setups. But Dave they are not. They are Honda Civic and Dave is BMW. Sure, there are Lamborghinis out there as well. But a Honda Civic, while good enough for many and certainly good enough to get around is NOT a BMW. If you hear Topping and Dave as similar, i would never say you can’t hear or are wrong, but I would say that you and I are so different that I don’t think we’ll ever agree.

 You are also touching here on another HUGE issue in the mainstream audio in magazines, forums and online reviews, which is that most of the reviewers are elderly and so all and everything revolves around the standard of “analogue” and the “old days” of vinyl. I know analogue has its charm and I believe it can sound great. I have heard analogue set ups that sound way better than digital and also digital that are better than analogue. I am also open to the possibility that all things equal at the very top of performance analogue still edges digital out. But I do NOT want to collect things, especially as records get more and more expensive. I am not interested in a house full of records and all that comes with that. Of course, I am not asking that anyone share in that sentiment. It’s just me. I listen to a lot of music, and so would need a huge collection. And I dont have any nostalgia surrounding records. My rig has always been digital. Sure, I havent been into this for 40 yrs, only 10-15. I just have different priorities. I suspect that you and I will differ on our opinion of the Lampi. I am completely open to it and still not sure if I can review it at home, but I hope to be able to. At shows Lampi dacs have always been too tubey for me. That could be the tubes, the room, the other equipment, etc. I am into tubes and have a tube headphone amp (Cayin HA300). I have owned several Woo Audio products as well. So I am not anti-tube. I am always open. My current monos have a tube input stage (AVM Ovation 8.3s)

Finally I agree with you on the importance of the power supply. And my money is where my mouth is: I have two DC4 for Mscaler and Dave. You mentioned not getting instrument separation from your Dave. That is NOT my system/experience at all! I have excellent separation and imaging  in 3D with a deep soundstage. I have Martens. I would say the Dave’s strength is between the speakers. It’s weakness is outside them—the width of stage isn‘t as big as other dacs I have heard. But separation is in spades, so is transparency and clarity. Someone above mentioned a DSD upsampling dac as “better” —the EMM labs—I have heard that along side Dave and Tambaqui. It lacked their detail, but it was still great and had a bigger soundstage and more “liquid” “smooth“ “analogue” sound, which suits the big speaker brands like magico, YG, Wilson, etc. but is too much for the already smooth Martens. Everything is relative, always relative to other gear, synergy, room, subjective listening preferences and sensitivity and type of music played. Lampi may be better for jazz, but is it for Biosphere? Bvdub?

Finally, I love this forum, as others have stated. I am also open to debate. We all grow through engaging with alternative perspective. And I am not overly sentimentally connected to my Dave. Nor am I a Chord fanboy. I have owned their amps, for example, and didn’t like them. Also, if I had the cash, I would switch to an MSB reference or Select any day. Lampi… I don’t know. Maybe we will see if i can test this one….


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## chesebert

“Analog” is not the old days and does not apply only to elderly audiophiles. Everything in real life is analog and digital is simply a mathematical representation of the analog real world. Some data can be represented perfectly others cannot, including music reproduction.


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## alxw0w (Mar 15, 2022)

GoldenOne said:


> So other than the limited measurements from Stereophile there were none available for the DAVE afaik.
> 
> I've now done a fairly thorough set if anyone might be curious https://goldensound.audio/2022/03/14/chord-dave-measurements-with-mscaler/
> 
> If there is anything specific someone would like me to test before these go back to the owner lmk


Interesting. Thanks.
Can you check usb vs optical on solo Dave ?
Can we measure any differences?
At least in sound there is a big difference.

Ps. Also it would be nice to see 2,5v and 2v rca out and also these measurements with -10dbfs (or it was-9 dbfs on chord slides, not sure now).


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## Sampajanna (Mar 15, 2022)

chesebert said:


> “Analog” is not the old days and does not apply only to elderly audiophiles. Everything in real life is analog and digital is simply a mathematical representation of the analog real world. Some data can be represented perfectly others cannot, including music reproduction.


You are correct, technically. I should have said “vinyl” i dint mean analogue in its engineering sense, but in terms of records and tape—-media, in other words, not gear or type of gear. What I meant was that those who have listened to vinyl for years or decades and made a mental, emotional standard out of it then try to get their digital rig to meet that standard and grade that gear based on how close it comes to the years or decades they spent perfecting a vinyl setup. Those of us who never started that way or arent coming from that world do not have that reference or standard. I realize this is an oversimplification of a big issue, but you hopefully  understand me… What I mean is that I don‘t listen to two pieces of equipment and say “I like this one more. It sounds more like vinyl.” That isn’t a part of my experience. But it is a HUGE part of what one reads on forums and in magazines… Not better or worse, just different….


----------



## chesebert

sm60 said:


> I’m unfortunately not convinced at all that 1) the splitting of the M-scaler/Blu with the Dave with two BNC cables is a sensible design 2) Rob’s “million tap” filter etc. is all that significant an  advance in digital audio 3) A hardwired static non-upgradeable design at this stage of progress in streaming audio is a sensible choice.
> 
> My 2 year experience with the Blu Mk2 and the Dave convinced me that it was worth exploring alternatives. I’m very happy with my Lampizator Pacific. Yes, it’s twice as expensive as the Dave, but if I compare the improvements in sound from the $1k Topping D90 to the Dave (which is 13x more expensive) vs the improvements in sound from the Dave to the twice more expensive Lampi Pacific, the latter is a far bigger jump.
> 
> ...


Duke Ellington’s Jazz Party is warm, big and holographic - soundstage extends forever. This is from the Qobuz 44.1 track. Wow. What are some of your other “test” albums?


----------



## Triode User

Sampajanna said:


> You mentioned not getting instrument separation from your Dave. That is NOT my system/experience at all! I have excellent separation and imaging in 3D with a deep soundstage.


I am 110% with you on this one. Prior to getting the Dave I had a Bricasti M1 SE and one of the main reasons for selling that and getting the Dave was the first rate instrument separation I hear with the Dave. Indeed I have yet to hear anything better in that regard from any other Dac. Everything else sounds just a little bit muddled. 

On another matter on Friday last week we had a little gathering at my house and one of the guests brought a Gaia and T+ combination and I am afraid that once again reminded me that I do not like the sound of R2R ladder dacs. (Also the comparison brought home the Dave’s phenomenally deep and tight bass).


----------



## HeeBroG

sm60 said:


> Yes, I thought putting the Topping and the Dave in the same bucket might rile some of you 😀
> 
> First, that assessment is based on listening to the Topping in my system, the original one with the fancy AKM DAC, not the more recent one that has a different DAC as that AKM factory burned down recently. The Topping offers stunning value for money. Measurements are textbook state of the art. Yes, the Dave is better, but 13x better? No.


With that yardstick; I suppose your Lampi Pacific DAC is 26x better than the Topping!


----------



## HarveyLowis

Triode User said:


> I am 110% with you on this one. Prior to getting the Dave I had a Bricasti M1 SE and one of the main reasons for selling that and getting the Dave was the first rate instrument separation I hear with the Dave. Indeed I have yet to hear anything better in that regard from any other Dac. Everything else sounds just a little bit muddled.
> 
> On another matter on Friday last week we had a little gathering at my house and one of the guests brought a Gaia and T+ combination and I am afraid that once again reminded me that I do not like the sound of R2R ladder dacs. (Also the comparison brought home the Dave’s phenomenally deep and tight bass).


hi Nick @Triode User , i tried to email and DM you, but never hear back from you.

Can you check your email or DM ? thank you.


----------



## Crashem

Sampajanna said:


> I agree. It is all system/budget/music dependent. I suspect people who like the Playback or EMM labs dacs, for example, have Wilson’s, magicos, YG or similar speakers that are Uber detailed, neutral and forward. Such dacs tame these speakers and make a pleasing, liquid tone. My speakers and amps are a hair warm of neutral. Marten speakers sound musical no matter the gear in my experience. My AVM Ovation 8.3 amps have tube input stage. They arent tubey at all, but are a hair warm or “organic” or what have you….
> 
> Anyway, I may have the opportunity in the next couple weeks to audition a fully-loaded Lampizator Pacific (balanced with Volume Control) in my home vs the Dave/Mscaler fully loaded with 2 SJ PSU and storm cables… I also have the option to buy the Lampi, so we will see what we see….



Remember the balanced Pacific can be used single ended.  It’s hard (eg expensive) to find quad’s of some tubes.

I agree that the Pacific blows away the Dave.  Did a 2 week test of Dave vs. GG a while back.  GG was superior for me but Dave definitely had aspects better and I could see someone liking the sound better on the Dave.  Pacific took the lampi sound in a more “modern” direction.  Lost some of the euphonics of the GG but was superior in all other ways.  Did a quick listen (3 days ish) vs. friend’s Dave vs. Pacific.  Basically, the Dave was slightly superior in micro details but lost on all other counts to my ears.  On good 2ch system, it is really noticeable.

Now Lampi has Horizon coming out and it supposedly superior to Pacific.  Looking forward to hearing that.  Given relative rapid DAC improvements, I am so happy that Lampi has been keeping up given their generous trade in program.  Basically getting 100% credit on old dac for new.

Oh, on that list of of top 10 dacs, just wanted to point to two Dacs. DCS just announced their new Apex Vivaldi which i imagine is excellent.  Also, WADAX Atlantis is strong contender for best dac on the planet.  Couple people in whatsbest forum with ridiculous systems (think 1M+) and contenders for best systems anywhere have switched to Wadax Reference dac.  Given the price of that dac, that is no small thing.

Finally, if I was looking at Dave today and assuming I was staying in same price range. I would auditioning it vs. Holo May, Mola Mola Tamquiri, lampi Atlantic or discounted GG (different flavor), msb, dcs


----------



## Jawed

GoldenOne said:


> So other than the limited measurements from Stereophile there were none available for the DAVE afaik.
> 
> I've now done a fairly thorough set if anyone might be curious https://goldensound.audio/2022/03/14/chord-dave-measurements-with-mscaler/
> 
> If there is anything specific someone would like me to test before these go back to the owner lmk


Didn't Stereophile report clipping?

There's only a few settings in DAVE that can be varied such as output polarity and HF filter, so it might be possible to find a correlation. The other setting that could be relevant is the toggle between PCM+ and DSD+ modes.

Rob deliberately doesn't maximise SNR because other aspects of performance are hindered when doing so. You should be able to find his comments on that.

Rob deliberately targets -100dB for attenuation at 22.05kHz. Again you can search for his comments on that.

You say the filter is "somewhat ironically" compromised. You're misunderstanding the trade-off he's aiming for. A comparison of the DAVE and M Scaler filters should make that clearer. Search should lead you in the right direction. Windowing functions are all compromised here, because they're explicitly modifying the ideal of infinite-tap sinc. So Rob tunes the windowing function. That's what WTA is all about.

DSD is converted to PCM to make it compatible with all the stages of processing.

TT2 and Mojo 2 have "low gain" output ranges in their volume control for IEM users, recognition that the earlier DACs were marginal for many IEM users.


----------



## GoldenOne (Mar 16, 2022)

Jawed said:


> Didn't Stereophile report clipping?
> 
> There's only a few settings in DAVE that can be varied such as output polarity and HF filter, so it might be possible to find a correlation. The other setting that could be relevant is the toggle between PCM+ and DSD+ modes.


The 'clipping' is so low in level and only occurs at absolute max level output so I don't think it's an issue. In real use it'd only show up when the music itself is clipping anyway.
When using it with the MScaler that reduces vol by -2.781dB anyway so it won't occur at all


Jawed said:


> You say the filter is "somewhat ironically" compromised. You're misunderstanding the trade-off he's aiming for. A comparison of the DAVE and M Scaler filters should make that clearer. Search should lead you in the right direction. Windowing functions are all compromised here, because they're explicitly modifying the ideal of infinite-tap sinc. So Rob tunes the windowing function. That's what WTA is all about.


I didn't say it was compromised. And I don't want to give the impression that I feel that the filter design choice is a bad one at all. As said in the post, I REALLY wish more DAC manufacturers followed Chord's lead and incorporated higher performance oversampling, and potentially released competitors to the MScaler as it is a fantastic product and I am a big proponent for high quality oversampling.

Technically it is true that ALL filters are a compromise, there is no perfect filter without infinite computing power which we don't have. But what you choose to compromise/tradeoff is simply preference and situational, there is no one size fits all 'perfect' filter approach else everyone would be using that.

Window functions are a compromise yes, but that applies to the WTA filter too.
Based on the testing done, it seems that the WTA windowing function has a time domain response looking like this:






A nearly rectangular window with cosine tapers. This as the WTA name would imply, focuses heavily on time domain accuracy but has more spectral leakage as a result.
In any case, the windowing function itself is less of a concern the longer your filter is. With a 1 million tap filter like in the MScaler the windowing itself almost doesn't matter and you're gonna get great performance in all areas.

My point about the filter design was more just wondering why it wasn't configured to attenuate fully by nquist. Given how ridiculously little content remains after nyquist it's not at all an 'issue' and aliasing will be probably undetectable. More just a curiosity that's all.


----------



## Jawed

GoldenOne said:


> The 'clipping' is so low in level and only occurs at absolute max level output so I don't think it's an issue. In real use it'd only show up when the music itself is clipping anyway.
> When using it with the MScaler that reduces vol by -2.781dB anyway so it won't occur at all



Really I was just curious if it was possible to identify an operational situation for the clipping, to make it a fully repeatable test. Agreed it's inconsequential, but it is a curiosity. 



GoldenOne said:


> My point about the filter design was more just wondering why it wasn't configured to attenuate fully by nquist. Given how ridiculously little content remains after nyquist it's not at all an 'issue' and aliasing will be probably undetectable. More just a curiosity that's all.


The explanation is to do with making the cut-off as high in frequency as possible, below Nyquist. That's why you see that M Scaler's cut-off is that little bit higher in frequency than DAVE's native cut-off.

The higher the frequency for the cut-off, the less timing uncertainty there will be in the conversion to analogue.

Rob has written about a detailed comparison with a Kaiser filter, where the attenuation at Nyquist is stronger:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-134#post-15968970

but there are other problems.


----------



## simorag (Mar 17, 2022)

A few days ago I had the chance to make a home demo of the Aries Cerat Heléne DAC, which I compared to my Chord stack.




My current digital front-end is a relatively complex chain where a Sablon Evo USB cable feeds a SRC*DX, which goes 2xBNC to the M Scaler (on battery), which in turn is connected to the DAVE via the OPTO*DX optical decoupler (on batteries) and 2xAudioquest Diamond cables. To add to the madness, I also use the DC*BLOCK units at the DAVE BNC inputs. I built this chain ("mDAVE" hereafter) over the last 4+ years and I consider every complication as additive towards a better sound.

I listen 90% to acoustic music and attend live unplugged performances on a regular basis, so to me 'better means' - subjectively - more 'natural'.

I started the comparison with the Heléne by using my trusted vintage Spendor LS3/5A, then I moved to headphones, which remain my most relevant configuration in terms of head-time.

The mDAVE and Heléne are very different sounding DACs: while being very good at everything they actually excel at complementary things.

Where the mDAVE truly shines is - to my ears - at producing holographic, transparent soundscapes, with tactile localization and flawless musical images separation. The other strongest area of performance is timing and flow: the rythmic drive is precise and propulsive, engaging and effortless.

The Heléne more impressive features are - on the other hand - tonal density, weight and timbre realism. Especially in the lower midrange / upper bass region.

Imaging is more diffuse with the Aries Cerat, it fills the room with larger / deeper sonic boundaries. mDAVE, on the other hand, has superior clarity and microdetails.

Take as an example The Ballad of Bill Hubbard, from R. Waters' Amused to Death.

This is an audiophile treat, and a great track to show off your high-end 2-channel rig to your friends if you so desire.

The infamous dog bark at the beginning of the track is more apparently even behind your shoulder (LOL) with the DAVE, and the subsequent atmosphere of special effects which creates an immersive 360° 3D bubble all around you is truly magical with the Chord stack. However, when the electric guitar plucks kick in (1:07''), the wave of warmth, the amber timbre from the Heléne are moving. When the big feline roars at 2:19'', DAVE makes you think to your cat, while the Heléne displays a puma.






Piano has a richer tonal palette and a more satisfying dynamics and resonant structure via the Heléne, with a more realistic decay. The lightfooted pace from the mDAVE wins in terms of percussive attack speed, and complex passages articulation readability, but I would give piano experience to the Heléne overall.




The same goes with strings. I listened to several quartets, solo violin / cello tracks and chamber music pieces, and the Heléne gave consistently the impression of a more accurate reproduction of the timbre, the feeling of the gut strings you clearly get in the real world was more obvious, whereas the mDAVE presented a certain metallic character which felt comparatively a bit out of place.




Instrument separation and 3D layering was instead superior with the mDAVE. You can identify in space each musician in an almost spooky way.

All in all, if I had to choose based on my 2-channel listening session, in my system, the Heléne would be overall my preference, to the point that I was actually considering to buy it on the spot. The authority and boldness it provided to my LS3/5a was unheard of in my room.

*Then I moved to headphones.*

Here the comparison ended pretty quickly: the mDAVE crossfeed, of which I am totally fond to the point of a true addiction, was dearly missing when I tried the Heléne.

I find many albums unlistenable without crossfeed now, and the mDAVE capability to do crossfeed right (i.e. with minimal loss of transparency) is alone worth having this DAC for headphones.

The Waters album mentioned above showed some decent level of 3D magic with the mDAVE and crossfeed (although much, much less enjoyable than the 2ch experience), which was totally lost with the Heléne and no crossfeed. I tried Roon crossfeed and I was only partially successful (maybe I should experiment more with it, but it does not look so promising).

With album requiring no crossfeed, and more specifically with binaural recordings, I definitely preferred the Heléne in combination to the AB-1266, whereas with the Valkyria the Heléne provided a bit too much of a good thing, ending up to an overly thick, mid-centric tonal balance.




Back to sheer technicalities, the bass control of the Abyss from the mDAVE was immaculate, with a clean, extended, tight presentation, whereas the Heléne was more on the voluptuous side.

Very crowded orchestral passages were easier to follow with the mDAVE, more like a wall-of-sound with the Helene.

Vocals are way more incarnated with the Heléne , but the very minute details about breathing, lips / mouth movements are best rendered by the mDAVE.

The spacious, holographic character of the mDAVE, its ability to present details in a natural manner, and the peerless implementation of the crossfeed make it very hard to beat as an holistic headphones listening machine indeed.

So for now I let the Heléne go back to the dealer, not without a touch of sadness.


----------



## adrianm

simorag said:


> A few days ago I had the chance to make a home demo of the Aries Cerat Heléne DAC, which I compared to my Chord stack.
> 
> ​
> My current digital front-end is a relatively complex chain where a Sablon Evo USB cable feeds a SRC*DX, which goes 2xBNC to the M Scaler (on battery), which in turn is connected to the DAVE via the OPTO*DX optical decoupler (on batteries) and 2xAudioquest Diamond cables. To add to the madness, I also use the DC*BLOCK units at the DAVE BNC inputs. I built this chain ("mDAVE" hereafter) over the last 4+ years and I consider every complication as additive towards a better sound.
> ...


Nice write-up, looks like you might be another "victim" of Sean Jacobs/Farad soon


----------



## Cortazar

->Simorag

I just saw that you have Taico extreme!! I am at the moment searching for a good streamer for my chord Dave. But I would not want to spend more then 10 max 15 mE. Could you say something about your story/way to taico extreme? Have you tried antipodes k50?


----------



## MvRBE10

Cortazar said:


> ->Simorag
> 
> I just saw that you have Taico extreme!! I am at the moment searching for a good streamer for my chord Dave. But I would not want to spend more then 10 max 15 mE. Could you say something about your story/way to taico extreme? Have you tried antipodes k50?


Inuse n10 now sounds amazing but the n20 seems another notch better and around your budget of 12k maybe audition one and listen.


----------



## Sampajanna

simorag said:


> A few days ago I had the chance to make a home demo of the Aries Cerat Heléne DAC, which I compared to my Chord stack.
> 
> ​
> My current digital front-end is a relatively complex chain where a Sablon Evo USB cable feeds a SRC*DX, which goes 2xBNC to the M Scaler (on battery), which in turn is connected to the DAVE via the OPTO*DX optical decoupler (on batteries) and 2xAudioquest Diamond cables. To add to the madness, I also use the DC*BLOCK units at the DAVE BNC inputs. I built this chain ("mDAVE" hereafter) over the last 4+ years and I consider every complication as additive towards a better sound.
> ...


Very nice write up! Good work. I do feel the DC4 fills in some of what you loved in the Helene, not all, but some, as it does add weight and body--meat to the bones if you will. A second one for the Mscaler and Bob's your uncle and Maria your aunt....


----------



## Christer (Mar 17, 2022)

simorag said:


> A few days ago I had the chance to make a home demo of the Aries Cerat Heléne DAC, which I compared to my Chord stack.
> 
> ​
> My current digital front-end is a relatively complex chain where a Sablon Evo USB cable feeds a SRC*DX, which goes 2xBNC to the M Scaler (on battery), which in turn is connected to the DAVE via the OPTO*DX optical decoupler (on batteries) and 2xAudioquest Diamond cables. To add to the madness, I also use the DC*BLOCK units at the DAVE BNC inputs. I built this chain ("mDAVE" hereafter) over the last 4+ years and I consider every complication as additive towards a better sound.
> ...


Hmm, interesting comparison.I also have an old pair of LS35A speakers and  I strongly suspect that what made you prefer the Heléne via those over Dave may have been that it added a bit of artifical body to what imho was a good but  still compromised bookshelf speaker made   for smallish rooms in its "hayday" and  often used by the BBC in their vans outside the Royal Albert Hall at the Proms in those days.
Since getting my big electrostatic speakers long ago , I do not even  bother to connect my LS35A speakers again. Too coloured and with limited bass. Better than some  more recent bookshelf speakers but still way too too coloured for me. Like most of my LPs mine still collect dust on a bookshelf but can not really compare to the  uncoloured open sound  of big electrostatic speakers.
But imho,even Dave needs an Mscaler to really shine.
Oops, just back  after another   hard working day day helping some neighbours loading loads of  haybales  in their stable/barn all afternoon it struck me. What did I write in my post? "Hayday" I meant heyday.
Cheers CC


----------



## simorag

adrianm said:


> Nice write-up, looks like you might be another "victim" of Sean Jacobs/Farad soon





Sampajanna said:


> I do feel the DC4 fills in some of what you loved in the Helene, not all, but some, as it does add weight and body--meat to the bones if you will. A second one for the Mscaler and Bob's your uncle and Maria your aunt....



I want to resist but the flesh is weak  

Seriously guys, my system is already on the ridiculous side of complex for my tastes, keep adding boxes is not an option at this point, especially big and expensive ones (although I am confident about a sonic advantage).
On the other hand, replacing the M Scaler (plus all the clutter I have deployed around it) with the upcoming Choral range Scaler would appeal me _much _more.



Cortazar said:


> ->Simorag
> 
> I just saw that you have Taico extreme!! I am at the moment searching for a good streamer for my chord Dave. But I would not want to spend more then 10 max 15 mE. Could you say something about your story/way to taico extreme? Have you tried antipodes k50?



I had the chance of a home demo of the Taiko Extreme about three months ago, and I was deeply impressed by the increase of naturalness and color density compared to my Zenith SE, especially with acoustic music. I had no way to do a home trial of the K50 or similar equipment (I was considering Aurender W20SE / N30, and MU1) so I decided to take the plunge on the Taiko, also reassured by the continuous development this machine is being granted (both hardware and software).

Unfortunately I do not have comparative listening experience to offer against the usual top contenders.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Mar 17, 2022)

simorag said:


> I want to resist but the flesh is weak
> 
> Seriously guys, my system is already on the ridiculous side of complex for my tastes, keep adding boxes is not an option at this point, especially big and expensive ones (although I am confident about a sonic advantage).
> On the other hand, replacing the M Scaler (plus all the clutter I have deployed around it) with the upcoming Choral range Scaler would appeal me _much _more.
> ...


Complete farad lps set you can add for 3k thats not ridicouless money and near or the same result. And resellable when changing to something else…. Within few weeks it can be ordered. Makes the dave so much musical to put it in one word.

And i ment the n30


----------



## Crashem

simorag said:


> I want to resist but the flesh is weak
> 
> Seriously guys, my system is already on the ridiculous side of complex for my tastes, keep adding boxes is not an option at this point, especially big and expensive ones (although I am confident about a sonic advantage).
> On the other hand, replacing the M Scaler (plus all the clutter I have deployed around it) with the upcoming Choral range Scaler would appeal me _much _more.
> ...



Taiko Extreme is probably the best or top 3 music server.  I use Auralic Aries G2.1 to stream and satisfied with it.  But I did at home testing with a few systems last year.  If I was to move to different solution, I would put Taiko at the top of my list as a direct to server solution.  I would point out that you do need a good system for the investment on a Taiko to be "worth its while."


----------



## Crashem

Has anyone tried the Plixir Elite or Ferrum Hypsos on the Dave especially in comparison to the Sean Jacobs?


----------



## MvRBE10

Crashem said:


> Has anyone tried the Plixir Elite or Ferrum Hypsos on the Dave especially in comparison to the Sean Jacobs?


You need neg voltage or flouting rail else wont work


----------



## TheAttorney (Mar 18, 2022)

Cortazar said:


> ->Simorag
> 
> I just saw that you have Taico extreme!! I am at the moment searching for a good streamer for my chord Dave. But I would not want to spend more then 10 max 15 mE. Could you say something about your story/way to taico extreme? Have you tried antipodes k50?


I recommend you try the Grimm MU1 server at around £10k, particularly if you like the idea  of a simple, fit-and-forget, roon-based, fairly compact, low powered solution.
This and just a single AES cable replaced my tweaked-NUC, Mscaler and a small mountain of power supply and cable spaghetti.

Within the next year  there is planned a DAC module to go inside the MU1, which I'll be comparing against DAVE. If the MU1 DAC wins, it will be byebye to DAVE, but hello to the challengee of finding a headphone amp that has as good, or better, cross-feed function as DAVE's. If DAVE wins, I'll be considering one of the DC4/Farad external power supplies just to complete my end-game solution.


----------



## Cortazar

While I am waiting for Riviera aic 10 to then seek for THE SERVER that suits the compete system I am very impressed of what I hear with my Abyss Phi direct from Dave. I can hardly believe that a extra amp can noticeably increase the Soundquality that I already have. I have only heard something comparable from sun audio 300B directly with my abyss (the 1 one). The only problem  and the reason I sold the amp was the humm that I heard from sun audio.
Anyway I want to try a different server on my system with riviera and only if I hear a clear progress to my Auralic Aries  I will be spending my money. On my list are: Antipodes k30,50, DCS bridge, aurender N20, Lumin U1, Grimm MU1. Any other ideas? I am wondering how much improvement do I get from Investment an the high end server.


----------



## cotic54

Bricasti M5 could be added to that list.


----------



## Lgn3

Cortazar said:


> While I am waiting for Riviera aic 10 to then seek for THE SERVER that suits the compete system I am very impressed of what I hear with my Abyss Phi direct from Dave. I can hardly believe that a extra amp can noticeably increase the Soundquality that I already have. I have only heard something comparable from sun audio 300B directly with my abyss (the 1 one). The only problem  and the reason I sold the amp was the humm that I heard from sun audio.
> Anyway I want to try a different server on my system with riviera and only if I hear a clear progress to my Auralic Aries  I will be spending my money. On my list are: Antipodes k30,50, DCS bridge, aurender N20, Lumin U1, Grimm MU1. Any other ideas? I am wondering how much improvement do I get from Investment an the high end server.


dCS Bridge is discontinued so you would have to buy used unless there are still  some new models left in retailers.


----------



## TheAttorney

cotic54 said:


> Bricasti M5 could be added to that list.


My understanding is that the M5 is a "streamer" as is the Lumin U1. The K30/50, MU1 and N20 are "servers", i.e. that can manage/play local files on internal drives as well as streaming from external systems. In general, each has different detailed functionality, and the spec sheets  don't always make it clear what those differences are. So the practicalities of each model need to be considered as well as the SQ. For example, if you  don't like Roon, then you may as well drop the MU1 right away.


----------



## cotic54

Yes, you are correct the M5 only renders music the storage would have to be on a separate NAS, I'm not sure if there are any advantages to having them separated or not.
I can say that the M5 is worth an audition.


----------



## muski

simorag said:


> A few days ago I had the chance to make a home demo of the Aries Cerat Heléne DAC, which I compared to my Chord stack.
> 
> ​
> My current digital front-end is a relatively complex chain where a Sablon Evo USB cable feeds a SRC*DX, which goes 2xBNC to the M Scaler (on battery), which in turn is connected to the DAVE via the OPTO*DX optical decoupler (on batteries) and 2xAudioquest Diamond cables. To add to the madness, I also use the DC*BLOCK units at the DAVE BNC inputs. I built this chain ("mDAVE" hereafter) over the last 4+ years and I consider every complication as additive towards a better sound.
> ...


Great write up. I have a similar setup, though fed by a Sonore OpticalRendu. I was surprised when you mentioned the DAVE lacking “the feeling of the gut strings” on the Podger recording (which I know well). In my system, I do believe I hear this (though haven’t heard the Helene).

Wonder if the PhoenixUSB in my chain might be helping on this front? You might want to audition it…


----------



## simorag

DAVE fellow users, I am curious about how do you feel about its crossfeed function. For me this feature sets the DAVE apart for headphone usage.

Please cast your votes and leave some comments >> here << if you like


----------



## 801evan

simorag said:


> DAVE fellow users, I am curious about how do you feel about its crossfeed function. For me this feature sets the DAVE apart for headphone usage.
> 
> Please cast your votes and leave some comments >> here << if you like


Non-negotiable Susvara + Dave setup:
Src-dx + sorbothanes
HF ON
Crossfeed 1
Line conditioner

Hard to appreciate susvara if one is missing because it's a combo to bring out the bass extension and the missing mid-bass. Also fixes the upper-mids and highs.

Stealth sounds good with the crossfeed on . LCD4 seems to have some timing issues but it's more about the resonance going on inside the pad and it affects coherence but still good.


----------



## HeeBroG

simorag said:


> A few days ago I had the chance to make a home demo of the Aries Cerat Heléne DAC, which I compared to my Chord stack.
> 
> My current digital front-end is a relatively complex chain where a Sablon Evo USB cable feeds a SRC*DX, which goes 2xBNC to the M Scaler (on battery), which in turn is connected to the DAVE via the OPTO*DX optical decoupler (on batteries) and 2xAudioquest Diamond cables. To add to the madness, I also use the DC*BLOCK units at the DAVE BNC inputs. I built this chain ("mDAVE" hereafter) over the last 4+ years and I consider every complication as additive towards a better sound.​


Thanks for sharing your experience.
When connecting SRC-DX to Mscaler does that bypass Mscaler? If so, were you using PGGB to do "off line" upscaling?


----------



## simorag

HeeBroG said:


> Thanks for sharing your experience.
> When connecting SRC-DX to Mscaler does that bypass Mscaler? If so, were you using PGGB to do "off line" upscaling?



I am still in the experimentation stage with PGGB. I have a bunch of well trusted recordings I have remastered through it during my demo period, that I plan to use for comparison with M-Scaler to decide what to do next.

Currently the SRC-DX feeds the M Scaler via dual BNC in my system. This allows me to use the M Scaler for streaming and easily switch between PGGB and M-Scaler for A/B testing between the two with local files. 
However, this is not ideal as the M Scaler is not actually bypassed when I play PGGB'ed files: first, it does perform dithering, and, second, the potential RF phenomena related to the M Scaler + all related additional elements (cables, psu, batteries) being in the chain are still a possibility.

When I have time and my Extreme has settled (I am still in the early hours of usage), I will do a proper testing. 

My gripe with PGGB in the context of my system / use case is that it can enjoy it only with local files, while 70-80% of my listening is via Qobuz, and the M Scaler does a great job in this scenario: I am now comparing the following album between local and streaming and the results are so close between the two ... On the other hand it is easy to hear the improvement from the M Scaler.






At some point Taiko mentioned that they were working with ZB to implement realtime PGGB for streaming in their XDMS playback software, but I am afraid that project did not go ahead.


----------



## GoldenOne

simorag said:


> I am still in the experimentation stage with PGGB. I have a bunch of well trusted recordings I have remastered through it during my demo period, that I plan to use for comparison with M-Scaler to decide what to do next.
> 
> Currently the SRC-DX feeds the M Scaler via dual BNC in my system. This allows me to use the M Scaler for streaming and easily switch between PGGB and M-Scaler for A/B testing between the two with local files.
> However, this is not ideal as the M Scaler is not actually bypassed when I play PGGB'ed files: first, it does perform dithering, and, second, the potential RF phenomena related to the M Scaler + all related additional elements (cables, psu, batteries) being in the chain are still a possibility.
> ...


Worth giving hqplayer a go.
Especially if you have roon. Much easier for real-time stuff


----------



## Darkliner

For those who use opto dx and src dx along with mscaler and dave.  What is your config like?  
1. Do you use src dx into opto dx into m scaler and  m scaler bnc connection to dave?
2. Do you use src dx into mscaler and m scaler into opto dx to dave?

I wonder in such a scenario if option 1 or 2 would provide greater sonic benefit?


----------



## adrianm

GoldenOne said:


> Worth giving hqplayer a go.
> Especially if you have roon. Much easier for real-time stuff


I did for about 2 months, I was really looking for a reason to get rid of the M-scaler, I liked the LNS-15 noise shaper, but none of the filters were even close to the M-scaler's . In the end, I prefer solo Dave when travelling with it as opposed to Hqplayer. Is there any combination in particular you liked with Dave?


----------



## GoldenOne

adrianm said:


> I did for about 2 months, I was really looking for a reason to get rid of the M-scaler, I liked the LNS-15 noise shaper, but none of the filters were even close to the M-scaler's . In the end, I prefer solo Dave when travelling with it as opposed to Hqplayer. Is there any combination in particular you liked with Dave?


Sinc-L is closest to the mscaler in design.
Sinc-Mx is my personal favourite filter and in many aspects objectively the best.

Also when using the DAVE be sure to set 'DAC bits to 18. You get a better result that way. Setting it to 24 the work of the noise shaper is wasted.


----------



## SteveHulk

For those of you pondering on the bnc cables between m scaler and DAVE I can certainly recommend the wave storm bnc cables.

I recently purchased a pair and the result is a definite step up in the quality of fine detail. Whereas before the detail was kind of there it sounded a bit edgy. Now the treble has greater detail and it is very smooth and sounds real.


----------



## adrianm

GoldenOne said:


> Sinc-L is closest to the mscaler in design.
> Sinc-Mx is my personal favourite filter and in many aspects objectively the best.


 Those were pretty much what I had settled on as well, but in the end they sounded more artificial to me than solo Dave. 


GoldenOne said:


> Also when using the DAVE be sure to set 'DAC bits to 18. You get a better result that way. Setting it to 24 the work of the noise shaper is wasted.


This is new information for me, do you have some links where I can find some more insight as to why 18 bits ?


----------



## GoldenOne

adrianm said:


> Those were pretty much what I had settled on as well, but in the end they sounded more artificial to me than solo Dave.
> 
> This is new information for me, do you have some links where I can find some more insight as to why 18 bits ?


Because the DAVE has a THD+N of 115dB which is 18.8 bits. So you'd take the number of full bits which is 18. ( https://goldensound.audio/2022/03/14/chord-dave-measurements-with-mscaler/ )
This ensures that the noise shaper is running entirely within the linear range of the DAC and is working to full effect. Setting it higher will actually cause a degradation in quality of low level information.
You could arguably go by dynamic range which is 117.6dB / 19.2 bits and set it to 19 instead. But it's better to go too low instead of too high.

As an example here's a Holo spring 3, playing a very low signal (-120dB 1khz sine). With LNS15 running at 24 bit:






But because the spring isn't linear to 24 bit (no real DAC is), there is some distortion present.
The spring 3 dynamic range is 129dB. Or about 21 bits. If we set LNS15 to run at 20 bits to ensure it's operating within the linear range of the DAC:




The DAC now performs demonstrably better.


The DAC bits should be set to the correct range for the DAC you're using, otherwise it is effectively wasted and you won't get the full benefit.
It's counterintuitively better to go a bit too low than even just 1 bit too high. But for the DAVE 18 bits is correct.


----------



## adrianm

GoldenOne said:


> Because the DAVE has a THD+N of 115dB which is 18.8 bits. So you'd take the number of full bits which is 18. ( https://goldensound.audio/2022/03/14/chord-dave-measurements-with-mscaler/ )
> This ensures that the noise shaper is running entirely within the linear range of the DAC and is working to full effect. Setting it higher will actually cause a degradation in quality of low level information.
> You could arguably go by dynamic range which is 117.6dB / 19.2 bits and set it to 19 instead. But it's better to go too low instead of too high.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation, I'd love to see such straightforward explanations for all the mojo surrounding Dave that actually make a difference. 

    I am curious If you had a chance to listen to Dave and the M-scaler with the optimizations that a lot of us found make a big difference. I took it for snake oil and fought it every step of the way but, 2 years later, my tin foil hat just came in the mail. Stuff like :
   - The M-scaler needs ferrited cables/Opto-dx or a battery + an optical connection to the streamer. I absolutely hate my M-scaler when plugged in. I'd almost go without it. There's clearly a much higher noise floor. Every time I forget to unplug my battery when listening, I can tell something is off. (The reason why is known, but I'm curious how you've experienced it for your reviews)
   - Somehow, even via an optical connection there is a difference between streamers. I've stuck to my guns and my gaming pc-s optical out for as long as I could, but there's no denying there is a o considerable difference, perhaps greater than there is going direct to Dave. Maybe the M-scaler isn't as resistant to Jitter ? Maybe It's due to the up sampling itself? no idea.
   -A mains filter is pretty much a necessity in my experience, otherwise, in my case (terrible power quality) the bass is just...flabby and diffuse and the noise floor seems higher. Highs are also irritating and stage collapses a bit.
  - The latest FOTM, DC4/Farad power supplies. What makes such a big difference? Especially with headphones (some people claim it can drive Susvara/Abyss much better). Is it the quality of the power supplied to the amp? If so, why do people swear by it in dac only mode as well? Are they essentially doing what the filter is doing, or is there more to it?


----------



## GoldenOne

adrianm said:


> - The M-scaler needs ferrited cables/Opto-dx


I have some original Wave cables here atm and have some Wave Storms and an SRC-DX on the way so will give feedback once I've spent some time with them.




adrianm said:


> I absolutely hate my M-scaler when plugged in. I'd almost go without it. There's clearly a much higher noise floor. Every time I forget to unplug my battery when listening, I can tell something is off. (The reason why is known, but I'm curious how you've experienced it for your reviews)


I have noticed some odd electrical behaviour with the MScaler.
Gonna look into it a bit more but there is notable leakage current in some situations and it seems that the ground level of the MScaler is at a different level to some connected devices.
The MScaler's power supply is ungrounded and the USB connection is galvanically isolated (so no ground) so it's entirely possible that grounding setups may be a bit finnicky with it.

Will look into this more soon.


adrianm said:


> Somehow, even via an optical connection there is a difference between streamers. I've stuck to my guns and my gaming pc-s optical out for as long as I could, but there's no denying there is a o considerable difference, perhaps greater than there is going direct to Dave. Maybe the M-scaler isn't as resistant to Jitter ? Maybe It's due to the up sampling itself? no idea.


The MScaler does have quite vastly different performance depending on the source. It does seem so far that using USB is the lowest jitter option by far, though that's ignoring any potential aforementioned changes in electrical behaviour which I'll look into.
Below are measurements of the jitter level and spectrum on the MScaler with USB vs SPDIF from the analyzer.








adrianm said:


> A mains filter is pretty much a necessity in my experience, otherwise, in my case (terrible power quality) the bass is just...flabby and diffuse and the noise floor seems higher. Highs are also irritating and stage collapses a bit.


I'm using an audioquest niagara 5000 currently. I've not actually tried it without.



adrianm said:


> The latest FOTM, DC4/Farad power supplies. What makes such a big difference? Especially with headphones (some people claim it can drive Susvara/Abyss much better). Is it the quality of the power supplied to the amp? If so, why do people swear by it in dac only mode as well? Are they essentially doing what the filter is doing, or is there more to it?


I'd really like to try the DC4.
Originally Sean Jacobs was going to be sending one over actually to try on the DAVE which I was looking forward to but I've not had any response from him in a while 
Hopefully that's still going ahead but idk


----------



## adrianm

GoldenOne said:


> The MScaler does have quite vastly different performance depending on the source. It does seem so far that using USB is the lowest jitter option by far, though that's ignoring any potential aforementioned changes in electrical behaviour which I'll look into.
> Below are measurements of the jitter level and spectrum on the MScaler with USB vs SPDIF from the analyzer.


Thanks! Any chance you can throw optical in there for good measure? 


GoldenOne said:


> I'd really like to try the DC4.
> Originally Sean Jacobs was going to be sending one over actually to try on the DAVE which I was looking forward to but I've not had any response from him in a while
> Hopefully that's still going ahead but idk


I'm sure @MvRBE10  and Farad might be more amenable  I bet everyone would like an objective comparison. I'm definitely looking forward to more of your impressions.


----------



## adrianm

GoldenOne said:


> The MScaler does have quite vastly different performance depending on the source. It does seem so far that using USB is the lowest jitter option by far, though that's ignoring any potential aforementioned changes in electrical behaviour which I'll look into.
> Below are measurements of the jitter level and spectrum on the MScaler with USB vs SPDIF from the analyzer.


Now I'm getting curious about how a Singxer SU-6 would perform with the M-scaler instead of my streamer. Not to mention Innuos and Taiko level stuff.
   I had no idea it existed before I came across your website. I can see why the endpoint makes a difference, but I attribute that to the electrical "contamination" and the clock that's used. Beyond that, I can't see what special sauce a (Roon) server could have  that would impact the performance out of the same aforementioned streamer, as some people claim.


----------



## MvRBE10

SteveHulk said:


> For those of you pondering on the bnc cables between m scaler and DAVE I can certainly recommend the wave storm bnc cables.
> 
> I recently purchased a pair and the result is a definite step up in the quality of fine detail. Whereas before the detail was kind of there it sounded a bit edgy. Now the treble has greater detail and it is very smooth and sounds real.





adrianm said:


> Thanks! Any chance you can throw optical in there for good measure?
> 
> I'm sure @MvRBE10  and Farad might be more amenable  I bet everyone would like an objective comparison. I'm definitely looking forward to more of your impressions.


I could throw in a good word and ask if he wants to get a kind of demo model that can travel the world. But mattijs knowing he always want some background info. I would also advise you to just mail him and throw all your technical knowledge to him and the why and hows he loves and appriciates that.


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## GoldenOne (Mar 20, 2022)

adrianm said:


> Now I'm getting curious about how a Singxer SU-6 would perform with the M-scaler instead of my streamer. Not to mention Innuos and Taiko level stuff.
> I had no idea it existed before I came across your website. I can see why the endpoint makes a difference, but I attribute that to the electrical "contamination" and the clock that's used. Beyond that, I can't see what special sauce a (Roon) server could have  that would impact the performance out of the same aforementioned streamer, as some people claim.


So far I've not managed to get the same level of jitter performance with the MScaler with any SPDIF DDC as I have with USB. Including the SU6.
It seems that it just will always have poorer performance with SPDIF input. Though this isn't entirely unexpected. Buffering and processing synchronous signals like SPDIF is trickier as the receiving device has no control over the speed with which data is sent, and so it must adjust it's own internal clock speed slightly to prevent long term clock drift issues which can eventually cause buffer overruns/underruns.

Other DDCs even without resampling such as the DI20HE have the same thing, where you get better performance with USB because you don't have as many challenges and the device itself can be entirely in control of timing.

I would recommend from what I've seen so far using USB for the MScaler.
The inputs of the MScaler are galvanically isolated anyway so in theory there should be no mechanism for noise to be transferred and therefore a taiko/innuous etc are not going to make a difference unless they were changing the audio itself.
Though it depends on exactly how the galvanic isolation is done as different companies use the term for different methods of isolation, not all of which actually eliminate all noise. Schiit for example uses transformer based galvanic isolation which does prevent DC offset and ground loops but can still pass higher frequency noise.

I generally would VERY rarely recommend someone to spend large amounts of money on a server. The server itself does not make a difference to sound quality, the endpoint or device connecting to the DAC does.

But even then if you were planning to get a high end server and connect your DAC to it, devices like an Intona 7055-C will provide full galvanic isolation to eliminate any noise/contamination from the source (The 7055 has upto 5kv isolation. You could literally set off a defibrillator on the other side and the DAC wouldn't see a thing) and have demonstrably ridiculously low noise on the output.





The Innuos devices are pretty much custom designed from the ground up with some genuinely great isolation and design aspects, and I'm sure will provide excellent performance too but you're paying a huuuge amount for the convenience of having that in with the server itself compared to getting a network endpoint and decent DDC or USB isolator.

The taiko is actually just a standard Intel based server (on an Asus WS C621E SAGE board) with a fancy PSU, and there is pretty much no way that it is going to have noise as low as an innous or intona or even a raspberry pi given as it's just using the regular motherboard USB outputs.








You can pay £1700 for the extreme USB card ontop of the ~£28k the device costs stock, but it seems frankly ridiculous to me. And you can get truly excellent USB sources for fractions of the price.

Either standalone streamers like an SMS200 Ultra, or high performance isolators like the Intona 7055-C if you want to use a PC/direct source


----------



## GoldenOne

adrianm said:


> I'm sure @MvRBE10 and Farad might be more amenable  I bet everyone would like an objective comparison. I'm definitely looking forward to more of your impressions.





MvRBE10 said:


> I could throw in a good word and ask if he wants to get a kind of demo model that can travel the world. But mattijs knowing he always want some background info. I would also advise you to just mail him and throw all your technical knowledge to him and the why and hows he loves and appriciates that.


I did actually have a Farad PSU here a while ago though it was used with a modified Singxer SU-1 DDC.
It did have excellent performance and I'd definitely be interested in listening to one with some other gear!

Unfortunately the SU-1 itself in that situation was a bit of a bottleneck but the Farad was lovely


----------



## adrianm

GoldenOne said:


> It did have excellent performance and I'd definitely be interested in listening to one with some other gear!


Well @MvRBE10  and Mattijs are working on a Frankenstein solution to use 3 of them with the Dave for less than half the price of the DC4. Definitely good to see some competition. 


GoldenOne said:


> You can pay £1700 for the extreme USB card ontop of the ~£28k the device costs stock, but it seems frankly ridiculous to me. And you can get truly excellent USB sources for fractions of the price.


Agreed it's ridiculous. I have a top tier gaming pc that I upgrade every 2 years, for a Roon/Hqplayer core. It will always be faster than whatever they're pushing. 
  For some reason, I've always preferred SPDIF to USB and coax (Most likely the noise the M-scaler is injecting into Dave). Differences between them aside, once I've introduced a battery for the M-scaler, SPDIF seems to win every time for me. If I plug in the M-scaler differences are debatable, but I almost want to go back to solo Dave and call it a day anyway. 
   With Dave I'd say the Jitter performance is almost inconsequential, but It doesn't seem to be the case with the M-scaler.


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## chesebert (Mar 20, 2022)

GoldenOne said:


> So far I've not managed to get the same level of jitter performance with the MScaler with any SPDIF DDC as I have with USB. Including the SU6.
> It seems that it just will always have poorer performance with SPDIF input. Though this isn't entirely unexpected. Buffering and processing synchronous signals like SPDIF is trickier as the receiving device has no control over the speed with which data is sent, and so it must adjust it's own internal clock speed slightly to prevent long term clock drift issues which can eventually cause buffer overruns/underruns.
> 
> Other DDCs even without resampling such as the DI20HE have the same thing, where you get better performance with USB because you don't have as many challenges and the device itself can be entirely in control of timing.
> ...


I am confused about Taiko. What are they trying to do? Is there any reason why you need dual Xeon with possibly 128gb or 192gb of ram for music server?


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## Ragnar-BY (Mar 21, 2022)

chesebert said:


> What are they trying to do?


They can simply rely on the idea that a person who has spent 24 thousand euros on a music server will never try and compare any "cheap" stuff from other companies 🤣


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...interesting "fact" you note there @Ragnar-BY 

Where did you find it? 

I have an Aurender ACS10 and a RaspberryPi 3b, I think it is. And a Taiko Extreme. 

If you optimize the network and perhaps add some ancillary devices (switches, LPSs, USB stuff) the less expensive gear can sound very good. Very good.

The Taiko Extreme sounds better. In my house, that's a fact. 

Now you ask: Have I ever done a double-blind, climate controlled, fasting, A/B shoot-out with those components, or fill-in-the-blank streamer. And I say: I have not. 

Then I say: If you listen to a high-school orchestra on Monday, and go to the London Phil on Tuesday, do you think you could determine which one sounded better? Or would you need to get them in the same hall to shoot it out? 

24K is a little low. You definitely want the USB card and add some storage. Strongly recommended!

PS: no offense meant to the LPO or any high-school musicians! Love you all.


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## Ragnar-BY (Mar 21, 2022)

@MarkusBarkus English is not my native, already corrected my message and wrote “idea” instead of “fact”.

As for the rest… I’ve compared a lot of transports. Sometimes there are things which are hard to explain, like clear difference between bit-perfect software (Roon and LMS in my case). But after I isolated my network transport with optical modules I can’t hear any difference between server hardware.

Maybe my hearing is not sharp as yours, or maybe you just heard a difference between software. As far I know, Aurender use their own soft which is not possible to install on Taiko server 😇

Considering the fact that we are discussing this in DAVE’s thread, I also want to remind you about electrical noise, which can (as explained by Rob million times) influence DAC’s sound and some people subjectively like this effect. Due to higher processing power it is very likely that Taiko’s RFI level is higher than Aurender’s.

Long story short: I don’t believe in Taiko’s server, but my opinion has nothing in common with ASR’s pseudoscience, blind-testing and other ignorant theories.

P.S. Just in case if my English skills let me down again, I’m not arguing or trying to troll you. Only explaining my point of view.


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## ray-dude (Mar 21, 2022)

chesebert said:


> I am confused about Taiko. What are they trying to do? Is there any reason why you need dual Xeon with possibly 128gb or 192gb of ram for music server?



In case folks have an interest in this, I have about 30k words to say about it a couple years ago (I had the same question going in) (and to stay on topic, this was paired with a DAVE for the listening tests)

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...the-taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-part-1-of-5-r907/

(I specifically answered this question in part 2...it is all about balancing memory to cores, so that process isolation to cores isolates memory I/O as well)


----------



## adrianm

Ragnar-BY said:


> @MarkusBarkus English is not my native, already corrected my message and wrote “idea” instead of “fact”.





MarkusBarkus said:


> The Taiko Extreme sounds better. In my house, that's a fact.


No worries @Ragnar-BY , even native speakers use the term incorrectly


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...yes, my dear. Point being: it's mostly opinion/preference. Perhaps "" was required for proper ironic effect. I thought "in my house" was sufficient. Oh well.

BTW: I would never poke fun or exploit any poster's language. Actually, I often agree with @Ragnar-BY and find him to be knowledgeable and sincere, ergo my thumbs-up to his post. Is that a fact? They're so slippery these days...


----------



## adrianm

ray-dude said:


> In case folks have an interest in this, I have about 30k words to say about it a couple years ago (I had the same question going in) (and to stay on topic, this was paired with a DAVE for the listening tests)
> 
> https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...the-taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-part-1-of-5-r907/
> 
> (I specifically answered this question in part 2...it is all about balancing memory to cores, so that process isolation to cores isolates memory I/O as well)


As a programmer (not low-level programming, but still) , this sounds like pseudoscience to me for too many reasons to get into. I can believe a lot of things relating to " what makes an impact on sound quality" , but once you tell me 2 servers that are bit perfect streaming to the same endpoint using the same protocols sound different, without any proof/measurements...that's pretty much where I draw the line. 
    Netflix should definitely put in an order for some of those Taikos to improve their streaming quality.


----------



## ray-dude

I very much respect that (and used to very much feel the same...my server journey started with a Raspberry Pi).  The closest I've come to a hypothesis for what is going in I tried to capture in part 1 of the review in the "Digital Audio Optimization Foundations" section.  This is all hypothesis, but in my server experiments, there has been a really strong correlation between changes that impact these areas and changes in SQ.

In an effort to keep this on topic, I have found the DAVE to be invaluable in sussing apart these changes on the server side.  The detail and imaging (particularly depth) is very revealing with DAVE, and an improved digital pipeline is very easy to hear in my room (at least to my ear).  As always, everyone's room and ear and what tickles the happy place in their brain is different, so best to try all these things in your room and figure out what is worthwhile for you.


----------



## Cortazar

-> Ragnar.  Could you say more about the servers you have tried with Dave? I have no idea about computer, what do you mean with "I isolated my network transport with optical modules"? The good news seems to be one do not have to spent to much for streamer when you have Dave. How would you spent let us say 3-8 kEuro for a streaming device`s?
Thanks!


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## Ragnar-BY

MarkusBarkus said:


> I would never poke fun or exploit any poster's language.


Not a problem if you ask me. I know that my english is far from perfect and have no problem if somebody finds it fun. I believe life is too short not to make fun out of everything we can.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

Cortazar said:


> -> Ragnar.  Could you say more about the servers you have tried with Dave? I have no idea about computer, what do you mean with "I isolated my network transport with optical modules"? The good news seems to be one do not have to spent to much for streamer when you have Dave. How would you spent let us say 3-8 kEuro for a streaming device`s?
> Thanks!


I've tried two laptops, miniPC and dedicated MacMini. With opticalRendu as an endpoint I've heard no difference between hardware, using Roon on all that computers. With the same opticalRendu as an endpoint, but with different software (LMS) difference was very obvious. After these experiments I gave up on pure servers and continue to try different digital transports.

For isolation from network, I use two Sonore opticalModules. One is connected to my network switch, another to my network transport. Module on the "clean" side is powered with Farad Super3. Idea is that routers, switches and other network gear uses switch-mode PSUs and voltage regulators, so it's good to isolate all that unnecessary electric noise from your music system. A must have thing in my opinion.

As for recommendations... Well, I can honestly recommend *to try* Rockna Wavedream NET. I'm using it with my Holo May via i2s and it improved Holo's sound significantly. With HMS or DAVE you'll be limited to coaxial or AES/EBU and I have no idea how it will sound through that interface. In case of USB I'd probably go with two-box Innuos solution (any server + Phoenix) for Roon, or with newest Aurender N200 if you don't need Roon. Although, I have to add that after trying i2s I don't want to use USB anymore. I know that using i2s for external interconnects is kinda controversial topic, but I like it better. Maybe it's just subjective preference.

Another option that comes to my mind when I see these over-complicated circuits with many converters, power supplies and other equipment is to buy MSB Premier or Reference DAC instead of DAVE. MSB DACs are expensive, but at least you're spending money on the main component and not on accessories.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

Ragnar-BY said:


> Another option that comes to my mind when I see these over-complicated circuits with many converters, power supplies and other equipment is to buy MSB Premier or Reference DAC instead of DAVE. MSB DACs are expensive, but at least you're spending money on the main component and not on accessories.


@Ragnar-BY that is *exactly* why I demo-ed the Premiere and later the Reference dac, which I purchased. 

I posted somewhere I thought the Premiere and the Dave with SJ DC4 and Denefrips Gaia was pretty much a draw. The Reference is, IMO, better. 

I had reached my limit on deconstructing the Dave to maximize SQ...my level of perceived SQ. 

I recognize many have said all that stuff is unnecessary for Dave to sound great. Makes sense. But more is possible. 

As you pointed out: all the add-on do become tiresome to some, at some point. Cheers, fella...


----------



## Ragnar-BY

MarkusBarkus said:


> all the add-on do become tiresome to some, at some point


👍


----------



## chesebert

ray-dude said:


> In case folks have an interest in this, I have about 30k words to say about it a couple years ago (I had the same question going in) (and to stay on topic, this was paired with a DAVE for the listening tests)
> 
> https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...the-taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-part-1-of-5-r907/
> 
> (I specifically answered this question in part 2...it is all about balancing memory to cores, so that process isolation to cores isolates memory I/O as well)


I presume Taiko runs on a custom Linux distribution, correct? If yes, then you can get fairly low level and those tweaks would be meaningful.


----------



## jlbrach

Ragnar-BY said:


> Not a problem if you ask me. I know that my english is far from perfect and have no problem if somebody finds it fun. I believe life is too short not to make fun out of everything we can.


yes, but you like a guy not to mess with lol


----------



## chesebert (Mar 21, 2022)

chesebert said:


> I presume Taiko runs on a custom Linux distribution, correct? If yes, then you can get fairly low level and those tweaks would be meaningful.


Okay, I just saw the OS screen - its Windows....lol this thing is a piece of fool's gold. You can't possibly access bare metal and will be accessing everything through API. Taiko would have been better off just building a gaming PC with outboard and enclosed USB card with linear power supply. At least in that case you can install HQ player and accelerate DSD conversion with CUDA.

@ray-dude the only thing in a windows machine that actually matters (assuming clean machine with sufficient process power and you use processing lasso (you can also do this manually with task manager) and take care of your processing priority of your media player.. etc normal tweaking stuff) is the USB implementation and connector. Motherboard level USB generally sucks and require external USB reclocker.

@Ragnar-BY I have been preaching for a network-based digital audio paradigm since 2010 when I got my Linn DS. That was a game changer for me and I have stayed with AIO Linn network renderer ever since. Lumin, is fine, even though it was a rip off of Linn's Klimax DS with worse power supply.


----------



## sm60

chesebert said:


> Duke Ellington’s Jazz Party is warm, big and holographic - soundstage extends forever. This is from the Qobuz 44.1 track. Wow. What are some of your other “test” albums?



Another of my go to jazz albums to test DACs is the wonderful “Full House” by the great jazz guitarist Wes Montgomery. This is a live recording at a jazz club called Tsubo in Berkeley, which is not around any more. This recording was made more than 60 years ago, yet it blows away many modern jazz recordings that sound so wimpy in comparison. Try the first track. If that doesn’t get you out of your listening chair and dancing around your room, I’ll eat my hat! Or you need a better DAC.

Speaking of relatively inexpensive components that punch waaay above their weight, let me add the fantastic Kef Ls50 Meta bookshelf loudspeaker. It’s the best small loudspeaker I’ve heard in 30 years. I combine it with the massive REL G1 Mk2 subwoofers, which are 7 times heavier and larger than the diminutive LS50 Meta. I set the crossover to about 75 Hz (the REL subs have a remote control to tweak the parameters of each sub from your listening chair). 

What a fabulous little loudspeaker. Cost me $1600 from Amazon. I’ve heard $16,000 loudspeakers that sound a lot worse than the little LS50. Absolutely sublime midrange without a hint of harshness in the treble.  For a stat lover like me, this is high praise. You can play it pretty loud, although I never listen beyond 75-80dB. Audioscience has detailed measurements on the Meta. Textbook frequency response. Only limitation is the high distortion in the bass as you crank it up. But you should obviously use a subwoofer, or better two. 

The Full House recording sounds magnificent on the little Meta with wall to wall soundstaging. You can hear the audience clapping almost having a surround sound effect. Needless to say, through the Lampi Pacific, this recording sounds incredible. Through the stock Dave, it sounds very good, except things are a bit scaled down in terms of the dynamics and the width is not as extreme.


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## chesebert (Mar 21, 2022)

sm60 said:


> Another of my go to jazz albums to test DACs is the wonderful “Full House” by the great jazz guitarist Wes Montgomery. This is a live recording at a jazz club called Tsubo in Berkeley, which is not around any more. This recording was made more than 60 years ago, yet it blows away many modern jazz recordings that sound so wimpy in comparison. Try the first track. If that doesn’t get you out of your listening chair and dancing around your room, I’ll eat my hat! Or you need a better DAC.
> 
> Speaking of relatively inexpensive components that punch waaay above their weight, let me add the fantastic Kef Ls50 Meta bookshelf loudspeaker. It’s the best small loudspeaker I’ve heard in 30 years. I combine it with the massive REL G1 Mk2 subwoofers, which are 7 times heavier and larger than the diminutive LS50 Meta. I set the crossover to about 75 Hz (the REL subs have a remote control to tweak the parameters of each sub from your listening chair).
> 
> ...


Do you run your kef full range with the addition of Rel or you use LPF for Rel?

Nice album again, great tonality, realistic and warm instrument timbre, great bass, great soundstage and space. The artificial stereo separation kind of annoying on headphones.  I will throw this on my Harbeth when I get around to speaker listening. 

People clapping, whistling and talking are kind of cool and you can sort of judge the distance from the recording


----------



## sm60

chesebert said:


> Do you run your kef full range with the addition of Rel or you use LPF for Rel?
> 
> Nice album again, great tonality, realistic and warm instrument timbre, great bass, great soundstage and space. The artificial stereo separation kind of annoying on headphones.  I will throw this on my Harbeth when I get around to speaker listening.
> 
> People clapping, whistling and talking are kind of cool and you can sort of judge the distance from the recording


I’m running the LS50s full range right now, with the RELs supporting the bass under 80 Hz. That’s the official REL recommendation. I don’t drive my loudspeakers very hard, so the KEFs are probably not working too hard. Their spec says they can go up to 105dB, but I don’t ever recommend listening at that SPL if you want to preserve your hearing. Anyway I imagine the bass distortion would be severe at that volume.

Yes, unfortunately too many jazz recordings have an artificial separation into hard left and right sound. You get used to it after a while. But with a great DAC, the sound should float over the left and right channels and create a compelling soundstage.

Another of my go to jazz albums, which again has that left right extreme separation is the immortal Bags Meets Trane pairing of jazz legends John Coltrane with Milt Jackson. Don’t listen to the shorter 192 kHz 24 bit version on Qobuz, which omits many of the great tracks. I have a remastered CD version that runs a full 70 minutes and blows away the high Rez Qobuz version. On Stairway to Heaven, when Coltrane’s saxophone enters on the left channel, on a great DAC, it should sound warm and full bodied, floating high above the left loudspeaker and echo all across your listening room. Gives me goose bumps each time I listen to that track. Miles Davis used to complain that Coltrane, once he got going, wouldn’t stop! He loved those long lingering notes, drawing out so much emotion from his saxophone. This recording shows him at the height of his powers and is a very bluesy album. A desert island disc for sure.

I have this in its original mono version on vinyl, as part of a deluxe Atlantic reissue called Coltrane in Mono. As always, for the jazz greats, as well as The Beatles and Bob Dylan and Ella Fitzgerald and Johnny Cash and Elvis Presley etc., mono is the true way to hear them. That’s the true sound they were aiming for. The stereo versions are always poorer sounding and were largely made to sell the newfangled stereo records, often without the artists permission. I don’t think the Beatles ever cared about their stereo releases, and often didn’t even hear them. They really cared about their mono releases. If you want to hear  the true dynamics in the Beatles albums, you have to listen to their mono album releases.


----------



## chesebert

Yes, the sound floats outside the left and right drivers with distinct space and soundstage but just a bit annoying. Thanks for the additional recommendation.


----------



## Sampajanna

Having heard a few different servers, I can attest that they do in fact influence sound. Which one we choose will be based on budget, system synergy, etc. But I feel compelled to poke one of the most distasteful aspects of the audio community online, at least for me, which is the criticism of a product that one has zero experience with. I get the fact that some products are not for me. I also view some products as bogus and want nothing to do with them, but I also feel no desire to comment on them either. Without any experience, what could I possibly contribute to the conversation? Taiko has a loyal following, because they offer incredible customer service and the company itself is run by true audiophiles that are striving to improve SQ. I havent home auditioned, so I cannot testify to its SQ, but have heard Taiko servers in systems and those systems sounded incredible. What i can attest to is that servers do change sound. I know that much for sure, having passed through a few. I currently own a Statement. Just my two cents in the spirit of conversation.


----------



## Sampajanna

sm60 said:


> I’m running the LS50s full range right now, with the RELs supporting the bass under 80 Hz. That’s the official REL recommendation. I don’t drive my loudspeakers very hard, so the KEFs are probably not working too hard. Their spec says they can go up to 105dB, but I don’t ever recommend listening at that SPL if you want to preserve your hearing. Anyway I imagine the bass distortion would be severe at that volume.
> 
> Yes, unfortunately too many jazz recordings have an artificial separation into hard left and right sound. You get used to it after a while. But with a great DAC, the sound should float over the left and right channels and create a compelling soundstage.
> 
> ...


My B system in my office is also Ls50 w/ Kef sub. Sounds great! love these little dudes. They are epic!


----------



## adrianm

chesebert said:


> Okay, I just saw the OS screen - its Windows....lol this thing is a piece of fool's gold. You can't possibly access bare metal and will be accessing everything through API. Taiko would have been better off just building a gaming PC with outboard and enclosed USB card with linear power supply. At least in that case you can install HQ player and accelerate DSD conversion with CUDA.
> 
> @ray-dude the only thing in a windows machine that actually matters (assuming clean machine with sufficient process power and you use processing lasso (you can also do this manually with task manager) and take care of your processing priority of your media player.. etc normal tweaking stuff) is the USB implementation and connector. Motherboard level USB generally sucks and require external USB reclocker.


Agreed on all accounts, that's exactly what I do, except I've been sticking to optical, but I'll have to compare it to coax and usb again, since the new headphones are a lot more resolving.


chesebert said:


> @Ragnar-BY I have been preaching for a network-based digital audio paradigm since 2010 when I got my Linn DS. That was a game changer for me and I have stayed with AIO Linn network renderer ever since. Lumin, is fine, even though it was a rip off of Linn's Klimax DS with worse power supply.


Any links to these Sermons?


----------



## adrianm

Sampajanna said:


> Having heard a few different servers, I can attest that they do in fact influence sound. Which one we choose will be based on budget, system synergy, etc. But I feel compelled to poke one of the most distasteful aspects of the audio community online, at least for me, which is the criticism of a product that one has zero experience with. I get the fact that some products are not for me. I also view some products as bogus and want nothing to do with them, but I also feel no desire to comment on them either. Without any experience, what could I possibly contribute to the conversation? Taiko has a loyal following, because they offer incredible customer service and the company itself is run by true audiophiles that are striving to improve SQ. I havent home auditioned, so I cannot testify to its SQ, but have heard Taiko servers in systems and those systems sounded incredible. What i can attest to is that servers do change sound. I know that much for sure, having passed through a few. I currently own a Statement. Just my two cents in the spirit of conversation.


    What is actually distasteful is people constantly feeling the need to try and assert superiority just because they bought 50k worth of snake oil and need to justify it.  Some of us have no interest in joining the "emperor's new clothes squad" and want to know what actually matters and WHY.
The criticism was centered at an idea, Taiko (used exclusively as a server, not as an endpoint ) is just the poster boy in this case. I have nothing against status symbols, as long as you can call it what it is.


----------



## Christer (Mar 22, 2022)

sm60 said:


> I’m running the LS50s full range right now, with the RELs supporting the bass under 80 Hz. That’s the official REL recommendation. I don’t drive my loudspeakers very hard, so the KEFs are probably not working too hard. Their spec says they can go up to 105dB, but I don’t ever recommend listening at that SPL if you want to preserve your hearing. Anyway I imagine the bass distortion would be severe at that volume.
> 
> Yes, unfortunately too many jazz recordings have an artificial separation into hard left and right sound. You get used to it after a while. But with a great DAC, the sound should float over the left and right channels and create a compelling soundstage.
> 
> ...


Absolutely nothing  personal as far as musical taste is concerned intended, and keep enjoying  the music and recordings you like.

But seriously what dynamics are you talking about with Beatles mono recordings , I would guess maximum 20-30dB?
Even a DGG  classical  music LP from the same period could have a dynamic range of 50 -55 dB.

And much as I still as an aging adult,actually like  some, but only some, of the Beatles´ music for strictly musical reasons, most of their recordings are only  OK at  best, mono or stereo  BUT never really good or anything I would  ever mention in any  real  HI FI context.

IMHO mono was good enough for Brahms and others in the late 19th century when the first recordings were made. But to me only of historic interest in an age when we can get both well recorded hi res digital stereo for two speaker listening or  even mch for more than two speakers systems.

And since this is HeadFi after all ,for optimally realistic listening via headphones I  often listen to  actual binaural recordings.
They can capture all dimensions, not only left- right back and front, but even the height dimension.


Of much more interest to me AND on a Chord tech thread was to listen to Rob Watts own test recording snippet  of real acoustic instruments in a church acoustic made with a Blumlein  figure of 8 mic that unlike mono also captured both width and depth and a believable quite realistic soundstage via my speakers.
And did so with quite realistic instrumental timbre and without tape  hiss or the limitations of late 50s mono analogue tape.And Blumlein miking , unlike early stereo  spaced omnis sometimes  did ,does not suffer from any "hole in the middle", on the contrary it can even  sound a bit narrow middle centred.
Johnny Cash or the Beatles in mono  are  certainly NOT reference points I would ever choose. And while I am the topic of  old favourites "warhorses"  of many "audiophiles":  "Miles Davies Kind of Blue"  also sounds more than a bit dated by today´s standards to me. The tape overload on the  too close recorded trumpet can be   almost painful to hear on a really revealing modern good system imho.
Nice recording by late 50s early stereo standards in most respects but also audibly limited by the technology available.
PS Since getting my Qutest/ Mscaler I  almost only listen to LPs for nostalgic or pure musical interpretation  reasons.

Cheers CC


----------



## sm60

Sampajanna said:


> My B system in my office is also Ls50 w/ Kef sub. Sounds great! love these little dudes. They are epic!


Just tried the LS 50 Metas on their own and not using the big REL subs, along with a much smaller 50 watt Quicksilver tube monoblocks. Wow, without the big RELs and a beefy amp driving the Metas, they don’t sound that great. The midrange is still nice, but the dynamics greatly suffers.  I also tried an inexpensive Quad Artera 150 watt current dumping amplifier driving  the Metas, but with big REL subs handling the bass. That sounded excellent as well. 

Ok, lesson learned. You need a beefy (solid state or tube) amplifier to drive the Metas. They are very inefficient. Two, without a good sub, forget it!


----------



## sm60

Christer said:


> Absolutely nothing  personal as far as musical taste is concerned intended, and keep enjoying  the music and recordings you like.
> 
> But seriously what dynamics are you talking about with Beatles mono recordings , I would guess maximum 20-30dB?
> Even a DGG  classical  music LP from the same period could have a dynamic range of 50 -55 dB.
> ...


Hard to explain, but at least on vinyl, on older folk, jazz, pop classic recordings from the 1930s-1970s, nothing beats the sound I get from my 70 year old refurbished Garrard 301 turntable with the majestic Miyajima Infinity Zero cartridge mounted on a 12” SME 312s arm. Frank Sinatra? John Coltrane? Bob Dylan? Ella Fitzgerald? The Beatles? The Beach Boys? Pete Seeger? Big Band Music? Virtually all of great recorded legacy of original American music over a period of 40 years, the golden age of creativity in performance and recorded music sounds way way better in mono on vinyl. I kid you not! Once you’ve heard Frank Sinatra singing Only the Lonely or Lester Morgan’s “The Prez” saxophone or Chet Baker singing or Elvis Presley rocking out or Johnny Cash belting out his lyrics in mono, there’s no turning back. Stereo? You can have it. I prefer mono. It’s the most direct closest to mastertape like sound I’ve yet heard in 30 years. 

Now, having said all that, high Rez recordings via Qobuz are great for recent classical recordings. I don’t listen to any modern rock and roll, no modern jazz or folk or rap etc. I can barely tolerate Diana Krall, maybe like once a year! I’d rather hear the great older singers like Billie Holiday, but here mono is king. 

I know I have strange tastes, but it’s my choice based on extensive listening 4-5 hours everyday. The day Frank Sinatra on Qobuz sounds better than my Garrard 301, I’ll sell my turntables. Hasn’t happened yet. I keep hoping. One day they’ll figure out how to do streaming right. Till then I’ll stick to mono vinyl for the classic pre-1970s stuff.


----------



## Jawed

Hopefully you're using a single speaker when listening to mono recordings.

A pair of speakers arranged in a conventional equilateral listening triangle suffers from a dip in the frequency response in the 2kHz region due to destructive interference.


----------



## chesebert

adrianm said:


> Agreed on all accounts, that's exactly what I do, except I've been sticking to optical, but I'll have to compare it to coax and usb again, since the new headphones are a lot more resolving.
> 
> Any links to these Sermons?


Google? lol. 

Optical makes sense for computer from an isolation perspective, but spdif over optical is not ideal due to conversions on both ends and non idealistic transmission medium. So you gotta balance isolation with USB's error correction ability, buffering and signal reclocking and figure out which method sounds best in your case. I guess it's YMMV as in most things.


----------



## Torq

chesebert said:


> USB's error correction ability



USB audio (UAC2) has no error correction capability, nor the possibility of packet-retransmit.

It does have a checksum, but all that does is let’s you detect if you’re getting bad data … not fix it.


----------



## sm60

Jawed said:


> Hopefully you're using a single speaker when listening to mono recordings.
> 
> A pair of speakers arranged in a conventional equilateral listening triangle suffers from a dip in the frequency response in the 2kHz region due to destructive interference.


Interesting. What I have found from experience is that mono sounds best when I listen off axis to just one loudspeaker. Particularly with my large 5” Quad 2905 Electrostatics, which have no crossover and are designed to mimic a point source. I can sit very close, like 3 feet away and hear the very pure near field sound without any harshness or discomfort. Or I lie down on a sofa just off the right loudspeaker and the sound just wafts up to the ceiling. Strange things happen with the Miyajima Zero Infinity mono cartridge, a bruiser of a cartridge that’s like 3 times as big as most standard cartridges. It generated subjectively a weird stereo effect where sound seems to come from a halo around not just one speaker, but both. I don’t miss stereo at all on great mono recordings. Because mono cartridges only respond to lateral groove modulations, surface noise is almost completely absent. 

Let’s face it, on almost all stereo recordings, you get this fake effect that has nothing to do with reality. Listen to Bob Dylan’s great albums. His voice is on one channel, the harmonica is on the other. Say what? It’s the same dude playing both. Sometimes they screw up the panning of the sound, and mid chord the voice or the harmonica shifts channels. It sounds awful. Dylan hated his stereo reissues, as did The Beatles. 

Now on classical music when you have this giant 300 piece orchestra playing, stereo does sound better and more closely resembles what you hear in a concert hall. But here again, take a recording of piano music, say Chopin waltzes or Beethoven sonatas having heard many piano concerts in a wide variety of concert halls all over the world, there is no stereo in a piano concert. The piano is placed perpendicular to the audience so you can see the pianist playing. You get a lovely mono sound. On piano recordings there’s this dreadful separation of chords across both channels. I always feel like my head is buried inside the piano when I hear a piano recording. Most unnatural. And the microphones are placed inside the piano often, giving a glassy brittle sound that bears no resemblance to how a Steinway sounds in a great concert hall.


----------



## chesebert

Torq said:


> USB audio (UAC2) has no error correction capability, nor the possibility of packet-retransmit.
> 
> It does have a checksum, but all that does is let’s you detect if you’re getting bad data … not fix it.


It all depends on how the USB driver is configured.


----------



## SteveHulk

sm60 said:


> Interesting. What I have found from experience is that mono sounds best when I listen off axis to just one loudspeaker. Particularly with my large 5” Quad 2905 Electrostatics, which have no crossover and are designed to mimic a point source. I can sit very close, like 3 feet away and hear the very pure near field sound without any harshness or discomfort. Or I lie down on a sofa just off the right loudspeaker and the sound just wafts up to the ceiling. Strange things happen with the Miyajima Zero Infinity mono cartridge, a bruiser of a cartridge that’s like 3 times as big as most standard cartridges. It generated subjectively a weird stereo effect where sound seems to come from a halo around not just one speaker, but both. I don’t miss stereo at all on great mono recordings. Because mono cartridges only respond to lateral groove modulations, surface noise is almost completely absent.
> 
> Let’s face it, on almost all stereo recordings, you get this fake effect that has nothing to do with reality. Listen to Bob Dylan’s great albums. His voice is on one channel, the harmonica is on the other. Say what? It’s the same dude playing both. Sometimes they screw up the panning of the sound, and mid chord the voice or the harmonica shifts channels. It sounds awful. Dylan hated his stereo reissues, as did The Beatles.
> 
> Now on classical music when you have this giant 300 piece orchestra playing, stereo does sound better and more closely resembles what you hear in a concert hall. But here again, take a recording of piano music, say Chopin waltzes or Beethoven sonatas having heard many piano concerts in a wide variety of concert halls all over the world, there is no stereo in a piano concert. The piano is placed perpendicular to the audience so you can see the pianist playing. You get a lovely mono sound. On piano recordings there’s this dreadful separation of chords across both channels. I always feel like my head is buried inside the piano when I hear a piano recording. Most unnatural. And the microphones are placed inside the piano often, giving a glassy brittle sound that bears no resemblance to how a Steinway sounds in a great concert hall.


Agreed on the classical recordings. A lot of them are pretty dreadful. And you are right about sticking mics inside the piano. I have no idea why they do that.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...then you'll really hate this album. Guess why they call it felt?


----------



## Torq

chesebert said:


> It all depends on how the USB driver is configured.



Not if it is using standard USB Audio 2.0 (UAC2).

Theres no support for it in the protocol or transfer mode, and drivers can’t magically add that and still be UAC2.

You can use a proprietary protocol over an ECC-capable USB transfer mode to do it, but that’ll require drivers for every platform you want to run on.  Otherwise you’re  on UAC1 or UAC2 and there’s no ECC possible there.  Given the dropouts you can get using Chord’s Windows driver with native DSD, I don’t think they’re doing it there (or it’s not working very well) … and they don’t have drivers for other platforms.


----------



## chesebert

Torq said:


> Not if it is using standard USB Audio 2.0 (UAC2).
> 
> Theres no support for it in the protocol or transfer mode, and drivers can’t magically add that and still be UAC2.
> 
> You can use a proprietary protocol over an ECC-capable USB transfer mode to do it, but that’ll require drivers for every platform you want to run on.  Otherwise you’re  on UAC1 or UAC2 and there’s no ECC possible there.  Given the dropouts you can get using Chord’s Windows driver with native DSD, I don’t think they’re doing it there (or it’s not working very well) … and they don’t have drivers for other platforms.


I’m sure you are correct on UAC2. It’s just that most audiophile dacs have their own drivers, so the answer could depend on the actual implementation. Don’t know about Chord but if you get dropouts there is no error correction. 

Like I said, integrated network streamer is the way.


----------



## Sampajanna

adrianm said:


> What is actually distasteful is people constantly feeling the need to try and assert superiority just because they bought 50k worth of snake oil and need to justify it.  Some of us have no interest in joining the "emperor's new clothes squad" and want to know what actually matters and WHY.
> The criticism was centered at an idea, Taiko (used exclusively as a server, not as an endpoint ) is just the poster boy in this case. I have nothing against status symbols, as long as you can call it what it is.


I would say that it is indeed distasteful if someone is asserting a sense of superiority for buying expensive gear. I havent come across much of that, but sorry you have. However, dismissing every opinion of someone who owns a product as foolish and mislead is also hubris. I don’t own a taiko and probably never will. I do have good friends who own them. They aren’t dummies and they aren’t trying to show off their money. One buddy saved long and hard to get it,  I personally find it too expensive. That is a valid opinion: too expensive for me. But the opiion that it sucks and does nothing and all who bought it are fools who bought something that does nothing just because they wat to show off how much money they have is a very silly, shallow stance and one of hubris, especially never having even heard it.


----------



## Sampajanna

MarkusBarkus said:


> ...then you'll really hate this album. Guess why they call it felt?


LOVE that album! Thx for sharing!


----------



## number1sixerfan

Sampajanna said:


> I would say that it is indeed distasteful if someone is asserting a sense of superiority for buying expensive gear. I havent come across much of that, but sorry you have. However, dismissing every opinion of someone who owns a product as foolish and mislead is also hubris. I don’t own a taiko and probably never will. I do have good friends who own them. They aren’t dummies and they aren’t trying to show off their money. One buddy saved long and hard to get it,  I personally find it too expensive. That is a valid opinion: too expensive for me. But the opiion that it sucks and does nothing and all who bought it are fools who bought something that does nothing just because they wat to show off how much money they have is a very silly, shallow stance and one of hubris, especially never having even heard it.



Agree with this entirely. Both perspectives are extreme and quite annoying to come across. And I find it ironic having that perspective as a Dave owner--you still own nearly a $10k device that some people who haven't experienced products in this price range would treat/talk about exactly the same as here with a $50k device. It's all relative. 

If you don't want to spend that type of money, you don't have to. There's also no need to bad mouth products or be unreasonably skeptical to convince yourself. Also, to be clear, I cannot afford a $50k streamer either lol. But bashing products in any price range when you have no first hand experience is just ridiculous--and as ridiculous as some people that only want the most expensive products for a sense of superiority.


----------



## muski (Mar 23, 2022)

Ragnar-BY said:


> @MarkusBarkus English is not my native, already corrected my message and wrote “idea” instead of “fact”.


Your English is excellent. From your posts I would never have guessed that you weren’t a native speaker..


----------



## griff500

muski said:


> You‘re English is excellent. From your posts I would never have guessed that you weren’t a native speaker..


Your!


----------



## griff500

Sampajanna said:


> I would say that it is indeed distasteful if someone is asserting a sense of superiority for buying expensive gear. I havent come across much of that, but sorry you have. However, dismissing every opinion of someone who owns a product as foolish and mislead is also hubris. I don’t own a taiko and probably never will. I do have good friends who own them. They aren’t dummies and they aren’t trying to show off their money. One buddy saved long and hard to get it,  I personally find it too expensive. That is a valid opinion: too expensive for me. But the opiion that it sucks and does nothing and all who bought it are fools who bought something that does nothing just because they wat to show off how much money they have is a very silly, shallow stance and one of hubris, especially never having even heard it.


There's a lot of inverted snobbery around.


----------



## adrianm

griff500 said:


> There's a lot of inverted snobbery around.


Not as much as regular snobbery


----------



## adrianm

I'm not sure how many more ways I have to explain this, the price is not the issue, taking advantage of people is. I'm done though, carry on with your marketing.


----------



## Clive101

Cortazar said:


> ->Simorag
> 
> I just saw that you have Taico extreme!! I am at the moment searching for a good streamer for my chord Dave. But I would not want to spend more then 10 max 15 mE. Could you say something about your story/way to taico extreme? Have you tried antipodes k50?


Short Answer
Tried both went with the K50 with BNC output.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cx-ex-k-s-antipodes-owners-unite.932942/page-17#post-16016308
Hope that helps ?


----------



## Cortazar

Thanks Clive! Looks like i could spare some money


----------



## ZappaMan

Part of me wonders whether head fi injects these users into the thread… I find I’m skimming past what could be useful posts about interesting albums just to see the next argumentative post…. Carry on!


----------



## muski

griff500 said:


> Your!


OMG, how embarrassing! I'm going to blame auto-correct.


----------



## TonyTripleA

sm60 said:


> Another of my go to jazz albums to test DACs is the wonderful “Full House” by the great jazz guitarist Wes Montgomery. This is a live recording at a jazz club called Tsubo in Berkeley, which is not around any more. This recording was made more than 60 years ago, yet it blows away many modern jazz recordings that sound so wimpy in comparison. Try the first track. If that doesn’t get you out of your listening chair and dancing around your room, I’ll eat my hat! Or you need a better DAC.
> 
> Speaking of relatively inexpensive components that punch waaay above their weight, let me add the fantastic Kef Ls50 Meta bookshelf loudspeaker. It’s the best small loudspeaker I’ve heard in 30 years. I combine it with the massive REL G1 Mk2 subwoofers, which are 7 times heavier and larger than the diminutive LS50 Meta. I set the crossover to about 75 Hz (the REL subs have a remote control to tweak the parameters of each sub from your listening chair).
> 
> ...


Thanks for this suggestion. Just heard the hires version in Quobuz… I’d played the cd version first and was blown away… what’s the next step after being blown away, well that’s how the hires hit me! The holographic separation sure is there. The sonic flavour is just perfect. The second track is my fav probably, it’s all amazing.

thanks again,

T


----------



## Sampajanna

ZappaMan said:


> Part of me wonders whether head fi injects these users into the thread… I find I’m skimming past what could be useful posts about interesting albums just to see the next argumentative post…. Carry on!


----------



## Sampajanna




----------



## Interceptor

Cortazar said:


> While I am waiting for Riviera aic 10 to then seek for THE SERVER that suits the compete system I am very impressed of what I hear with my Abyss Phi direct from Dave. I can hardly believe that a extra amp can noticeably increase the Soundquality that I already have. I have only heard something comparable from sun audio 300B directly with my abyss (the 1 one). The only problem  and the reason I sold the amp was the humm that I heard from sun audio.
> Anyway I want to try a different server on my system with riviera and only if I hear a clear progress to my Auralic Aries  I will be spending my money. On my list are: Antipodes k30,50, DCS bridge, aurender N20, Lumin U1, Grimm MU1. Any other ideas? I am wondering how much improvement do I get from Investment an the high end server.


Or around EUR500 to upgrade to a hoer-wege replacement power supply inside your Aries G2.1 - which I have done - and this does improve the naturalness of the stream that goes into my DAVE - an audible improvement, particularly with headphones.

https://hoer-wege.de/produkt/der-hoer-wege-medien-player-auralic-aries-g2-1/   various ranslation tools are avaible online. Stephan Hoer-Wege is very easy to deal with. The H-W upgrade takes about 4 weeks to fully settle in.

Note that Stephan Hoer-Wege prefers the SPDIF connections (RCA or AES) out of the Aries over USB. I am using a Studio Connections Black Star AES or a WAVE Storm RCA/BNC to connect to my DAVE which together with a Vitus RI-101 integrated amp is finally giving me a musical, rather than technical, listening experience without losing accuracy or definition of the instruments.


----------



## skootb

Thoughts on the internal headphone amp vs using one of the fancy new ones like the Ferrum Oor? 

I'm happy so far with my Dave headphone out, but am curious if I'm missing anything with one of these newer headphone amps.

How many of you run Dave > another headphone amp?


----------



## SteveHulk

skootb said:


> Thoughts on the internal headphone amp vs using one of the fancy new ones like the Ferrum Oor?
> 
> I'm happy so far with my Dave headphone out, but am curious if I'm missing anything with one of these newer headphone amps.
> 
> How many of you run Dave > another headphone amp?


I run DAVE into Woo Audio WA5LE driving Audeze LCD-4. Before I had the Woo I drove them direct from the DAVE.

The extra amp just gives the sound much more welly basically. If you use cans that are anything like hard to drive you'll need it and if you listen to metal you'll definitely need it 😀


----------



## F208Frank

simorag said:


> *Re: Using an external headphone amp with the DAVE and Abyss Phi*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wonderful post, always interesting to read your stuff, the same person who back then got me into the AIC 10.


----------



## Uncle Monty

skootb said:


> Thoughts on the internal headphone amp vs using one of the fancy new ones like the Ferrum Oor?
> 
> I'm happy so far with my Dave headphone out, but am curious if I'm missing anything with one of these newer headphone amps.
> 
> How many of you run Dave > another headphone amp?


Dave - Manley Absolute - ZMF Verite Closed - I think the DAVE sounds better in pure DAC mode and you can choose an amp that suits your musical tastes / phones impedance etc. Budget for quality connectors - RCAs or XLRs - your DAVE deserves them...


----------



## F208Frank

Former Dave owner here, any Dave owner have the Sagra as well and enjoy it as well? My sagra is incoming soon and will be my first r2r dac!


----------



## Slim1970

F208Frank said:


> Former Dave owner here, any Dave owner have the Sagra as well and enjoy it as well? My sagra is incoming soon and will be my first r2r dac!


I owned them both at the same time. The Sagra is a lot smoother and warmer with the typical R2R sound. Were the Dave is insightful and shows great depth into the music the Sagra is less detailed, notes are rounded, its less incisive, but it is a lot more musical. 

You may find that you miss the precision and snappiness of the Dave. I put a Singxer SU-6 in front on the Sagra to help sharpen the imaging and improve the transient response. I also used silver cabling to help liven the sound up. I guess I was trying to infuse some of the Dave’s sound characteristics into the Sagra DAC. 

The XIAudio stack does help fill in the TC’s midrange. So there’s that.


----------



## F208Frank (Mar 26, 2022)

Slim1970 said:


> I owned them both at the same time. The Sagra is a lot smoother and warmer with the typical R2R sound. Were the Dave is insightful and shows great depth into the music the Sagra is less detailed, notes are rounded, its less incisive, but it is a lot more musical.
> 
> You may find that you miss the precision and snappiness of the Dave. I put a Singxer SU-6 in front on the Sagra to help sharpen the imaging and improve the transient response. I also used silver cabling to help liven the sound up. I guess I was trying to infuse some of the Dave’s sound characteristics into the Sagra DAC.
> 
> The XIAudio stack does help fill in the TC’s midrange. So there’s that.


Thank you for the reply!

"The XIAudio stack does help fill in the TC’s midrange. So there’s that."

^ when you are mentioning the XIAudio stack, are you stating that the formula s/powerman themselves are enough to fill in TC mid range or were you referring to the full stack?

At the end of the day did you prefer the sagra or the dave with the formula s/powerman combo? 

My rough logic for my choices for the amp choice and dac choice were because since I owned the HPA4 and the WA33 prior and I felt one was too clinical and one was too musical (my preference leans towards ss amps) so the formula s/powerman would be some sort of middle ground.

For the dac choice, you may laugh. I chose the sagra to attempt to save money from upgrading the SC cable this time around, since the Sagra is more "musical" being a R2R dac, hoping that it would fill in the mids of the TC without the SC cable.

Overall would you say my logic is flawed or incorrect from the above since you owned all the items along side the Dave?

Thanks much in advance.


----------



## Slim1970

F208Frank said:


> "The XIAudio stack does help fill in the TC’s midrange. So there’s that."
> 
> ^ when you are mentioning the XIAudio stack, are you stating that the formula s/powerman themselves are enough to fill in TC mid range or were you referring to the full stack?


It's more of the Sagra DAC filling in the gaps in sound of the TC's. The Formula S/Powerman is fairly transparent to source. 


F208Frank said:


> At the end of the day did you prefer the sagra or the dave with the formula s/powerman combo?


The Dave was stellar with the Formula S/Powerman. It comes down to preference really. The Sagra DAC is its natural mate. When I hooked it up to the Formula S/Powerman the sound just fell into place from a sound standpoint. Since I wanted an alternate sound I really wanted to like to Sagra DAC. 


F208Frank said:


> My rough logic for my choices for the amp choice and dac choice were because since I owned the HPA4 and the WA33 prior and I felt one was too clinical and one was too musical (my preference leans towards ss amps) so the formula s/powerman would be some sort of middle ground.
> 
> For the dac choice, you may laugh. I chose the sagra to attempt to save money from upgrading the SC cable this time around, since the Sagra is more "musical" being a R2R dac, hoping that it would fill in the mids of the TC without the SC cable.
> 
> ...


You are on the right track in your thinking. The Sagra DAC coupled to the Formula S/Powerman will get you the sound you want. I'm using a DHC Complement 4 on my TC's and full XIAudio stack made them sound full bodied pushing the midrange forward making the sound more balanced. Based on what I heard you don't need the SC cable.


----------



## F208Frank (Mar 26, 2022)

Slim1970 said:


> It's more of the Sagra DAC filling in the gaps in sound of the TC's. The Formula S/Powerman is fairly transparent to source.
> 
> The Dave was stellar with the Formula S/Powerman. It comes down to preference really. The Sagra DAC is its natural mate. When I hooked it up to the Formula S/Powerman the sound just fell into place from a sound standpoint. Since I wanted an alternate sound I really wanted to like to Sagra DAC.
> 
> You are on the right track in your thinking. The Sagra DAC coupled to the Formula S/Powerman will get you the sound you want. I'm using a DHC Complement 4 on my TC's and full XIAudio stack made them sound full bodied pushing the midrange forward making the sound more balanced. Based on what I heard you don't need the SC cable.


Just want to say thanks once again for the response. Immensely helpful and very satisfying to "guess" my way around to my personal land of the free based on prior gear used.

With all that said I am pretty sure Dave + Formula S + Powerman would be awesome. I am just trying to save money for now this time around re entering the hobby.

Humans are interesting creatures, sometimes you don't value and recognize what you had/have until it's lost or gone from the life. Easier said than done sometimes...


----------



## Slim1970

F208Frank said:


> Just want to say thanks once again for the response. Immensely helpful and very satisfying to "guess" my way around to my personal land of the free based on prior gear used.
> 
> With all that said I am pretty sure Dave + Formula S + Powerman would be awesome. I am just trying to save money for now this time around re entering the hobby.
> 
> Humans are interesting creatures, sometimes you don't value and recognize what you had/have until it's lost or gone from the life. Easier said than done sometimes...


No problem, the full XIAudio is a great way to come back to head-fi. With you having owned the Dave previously you already know what you’ll be missing. The Dave is the best DAC I've had the privilege of owning so far.


----------



## alxw0w

Isn't Sagra dac using soekris board inside?


----------



## F208Frank

alxw0w said:


> Isn't Sagra dac using soekris board inside?


I hear variations of this statement. I myself am unsure. All I do know is that it is a balanced dac, which is little strange considering that the amp design is not balanced.

Anyways thread should probably get back to the Dave before people start getting angry.

The dave was definitely a pleasure to own.


----------



## Slim1970

F208Frank said:


> I hear variations of this statement. I myself am unsure. All I do know is that it is a balanced dac, which is little strange considering that the amp design is not balanced.
> 
> Anyways thread should probably get back to the Dave before people start getting angry.
> 
> The dave was definitely a pleasure to own.


The way I understand it is the Sagra is built around the Soekris R2R board


----------



## ubs28

Does a high quality power cable make any difference?


----------



## iDesign (Mar 26, 2022)

ubs28 said:


> Does a high quality power cable make any difference?


You would probably see a greater improvement by spending less to have an electrician update the outlet and aging wiring in your walls. An esteemed reviewer did a shootout of 27 power cables that cost thousands of dollars and this was their outlet. An expensive power cable won’t fix the obvious.


----------



## adrianm

iDesign said:


> You would probably see a greater improvement by spending less to have an electrician update the outlet and aging wiring in your walls. An esteemed reviewer did a shootout of 27 power cables that cost thousands of dollars and this was their outlet. An expensive power cable won’t fix the obvious.


Or do what I did, buy a new place  I'm super excited to see if the HUGE difference my Isotek Aquarius makes now will also happen in the new place (construction just finished). Especially after installing a dedicated circuit, since even Rob swears by that.


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## Malcyg (Mar 26, 2022)

adrianm said:


> Or do what I did, buy a new place  I'm super excited to see if the HUGE difference my Isotek Aquarius makes now will also happen in the new place (construction just finished). Especially after installing a dedicated circuit, since even Rob swears by that.



You will definitely notice the difference! We moved 3 years ago into a house which was a new build a few years back and they put a very well considered dedicated home network system in at construction. We are lucky enough to have access to the same guy that designed the whole electrical installation and he knows what he is doing. When I set up my main system, it was incredible how much better it sounded in the new place and it confirmed that much of the time and money that I had spent chasing down power and Ethernet solutions were quite largely due to the electrical installation in the old house. The good installation gave a much bigger difference than any of the tinkerings that I had tried - albeit reluctantly - around clocking and cleaning.


----------



## MvRBE10

adrianm said:


> Or do what I did, buy a new place  I'm super excited to see if the HUGE difference my Isotek Aquarius makes now will also happen in the new place (construction just finished). Especially after installing a dedicated circuit, since even Rob swears by that.


I did the same re-arranged the powerbox and dedicated one phase (of the three) just for audio. And installed these gigawatt breakers. And just one shielded 4mm2 power cable (shielding connected on the power side). Straight into the poweroutlet box. No euro connectors or other bs inbetween. And indeed there came alot of ease and darkness (musicality) into the complete system. Easy and not expensive.. just work.


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## Christer (Mar 26, 2022)

iDesign said:


> You would probably see a greater improvement by spending less to have an electrician update the outlet and aging wiring in your walls. An esteemed reviewer did a shootout of 27 power cables that cost thousands of dollars and this was their outlet. An expensive power cable won’t fix the obvious.


This  discussion makes me think of  "crap in -crap out" and at least for headphone listening, the importance of trying to avoid grid power  altogether ,whenever possible.

 More difficult to do  so with speakers for sure ,but I also clearly remember how much better my system sounded in my flat in town when it had been rewired.

 But during my many happy years of travelling in the Tropics over winter before Covid and now war! struck, very variable grid power quality, was often a BIG problem especially after getting my Mscaler.

At its worst at one place I had  rented for a couple of months  in Thailand one winter a few years ago, where I could barely hear the benefits of my newly aquired Mscaler  with the stock bncs . It had sounded good and a clear improvement over Qutest on its own, at my hotels in KL where I had  bought it, but NOT at the same level in Phuket.
Later my Wave Storm  BNCs cured most of those problems.

But I really wish Rob would make a TOP NOTCH easily transportable, not necessarily portable , I do NOT  walk or run while listening to music, but a dac/Mscaler combo that runs on rechargable AND by the  user  EASILY exchangable , but still long lasting batteries!!

I would also VERY  MUCH like him to do so WITHOUT  involving such  ridiculous costs!

 Why, oh why, do  Rob´s Chord products almost always have to be so extremely expensive???
Yes I know Mojo 2 is affordable but if it does not sound as good as H2 I see little need for one.

I do really appreciate the SQ benefits of his mscaling tech,but I also Strongly Object to some of the NOT  nice "side effects" involved !

COST being the MAIN one!

Some kind of  PGGB or  other high quality similar "pre upscaled" solution is becoming tempting as an alternative to Chord´s  refusal? to make mscaling available at more affordable price levels .
Mscaler X seems  interesting indeed from a tech point of view, but it will most probably be ridiculously priced.


His current, always to be plugged in to the grid. And  always to be powered on,design choices, DO NOT appeal to me for that  very reason,nor are they environmentally defendable imho. Yes I have an Mscaler and I run it from the grid.
 But battery capablity should imho NOT have be an extra option like powerbanks and such ,it should imho be there as an included way of running, not only Mojo and H2 but other products too.

TT had one why oh why, does not TT2 or Qutest have a batteries?

 And to have to send a "dead battery" product like H2 or Mojo 2  to Chord for changing battery is absolutely unacceptable imho.
Cheers again Controversial Chris


----------



## chesebert

Are you in Ukraine? Why would the war have any effect on your power grid?


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## Christer (Mar 26, 2022)

chesebert said:


> Are you in Ukraine? Why would the war have any effect on your power grid?


No I am in Sweden,but we had some power cuts lasting several days this winter during storms that knocked down trees that fell over power lines.
Moreover during the  equally reliable thunderstorms in summer there are  often power cuts for days.

Besides I want to get a solution where I can listen at least via headphones completely off-grid not only for that reason , I want to get Mscaler off-grid in a simliar way I can already run my Qutest and the very few but rather interesting  PGGB testfiles I have.
Mscaler may do transients a bit better than PGGB ,but PGGB and Qutest on battery deliver a slightly lower noise floor than Mscaler,audible via headphones and with  large scale symphonic music with a huge dynamic range.
And when I say huge dynamic range  I do NOT mean the loud parts.
Cheers CC


----------



## chesebert

Christer said:


> No I am in Sweden,but we had some power cuts lasting several days this winter during storms that knocked down trees that fell over power lines.
> Moreover during the  equally reliable thunderstorms in summer there are  often power cuts for days.
> 
> Besides I want to get a solution where I can listen at least via headphones completely off-grid not only for that reason , I want to get Mscaler off-grid in a simliar way I can already run my Qutest and the very few but rather interesting  PGGB testfiles I have.
> ...


I would recommend against battery power for best performance because this has been done to death 20 years ago and the consensus at the time was that you get dynamic limited when you are on battery - even for headphone use. I suspect battery-based power supply simply could not keep up with high instantaneous power requirement during high dynamic and complex passages. You can try again but thought you may find this data point useful.


----------



## Christer

chesebert said:


> I would recommend against battery power for best performance because this has been done to death 20 years ago and the consensus at the time was that you get dynamic limited when you are on battery - even for headphone use. I suspect battery-based power supply simply could not keep up with high instantaneous power requirement during high dynamic and complex passages. You can try again but thought you may find this data point useful.


Hmm, interesting take, but I was under the impression that according even to Rob himself the optimal way to run his dacs would be via some kind of battery powering.  
 Of course a battery capable of handling instantaneous power and current  requirements optimally while avoiding the drawbacks and limitations of fluctuating and  possibly dirty? grid power  and the RF issues involved with grid power as well. 
I have never auditioned Dave off-grid ,and only ever via headphones ,but never in a good HIFI system. No dealer I have visited has ever had a Dave in a high quality speaker based system. And one problem with Dave and Blu 2 and Mscaler , I have  experienced was not enough power or current? delivered to handle very complex and loud passages in some  symphonic works  I had then quite recently been at the actual recording sessions of. 
Ok ,the headphones were Susvara but there was no doubt in my mind that with a good powerful headphone amp  added, things sounded notably cleaner and  closer to how I had heard live at sessions in the hall.

Both that experience and some others too, have lead me to suspect that in spite of its other qualities ,"The Achilles Heel" of Dave could  actually be  a case  of  not having  enough power or current reserves to drive some  the most demanding headphones like Susvara  to their full capability with dynamically non compressed  large scale symphonic material. Apart from its very high price, imho actually  "Way too high" price, that has been the main reason why I still do not own a Dave.
Cheers CC


----------



## Arniesb

chesebert said:


> I would recommend against battery power for best performance because this has been done to death 20 years ago and the consensus at the time was that you get dynamic limited when you are on battery - even for headphone use. I suspect battery-based power supply simply could not keep up with high instantaneous power requirement during high dynamic and complex passages. You can try again but thought you may find this data point useful.


"could not keep up with high instantaneous power requirement during high dynamic and complex passages"
It could be the same reason why switched mode power supplies suck? Those now days have lower noise figures and measurements dont show their shortcomings...
Most of the good dacs and amps have massive linear power supplies with massive amount of high end capacitors...
Bakoon, Sparkos, Headamps, Niimbus and Ferrums amps show worse measurements than Topping amps, but unlike Chinese amps they have Beefy power supplies.
I can bet that those power supplies that are bought for Dave wont show improvements on Audio Analyser, but people are happy with that upgrade right?


----------



## number1sixerfan

Christer said:


> Hmm, interesting take, but I was under the impression that according even to Rob himself the optimal way to run his dacs would be via some kind of battery powering.
> Of course a battery capable of handling instantaneous power and current  requirements optimally while avoiding the drawbacks and limitations of fluctuating and  possibly dirty? grid power  and the RF issues involved with grid power as well.
> I have never auditioned Dave off-grid ,and only ever via headphones ,but never in a good HIFI system. No dealer I have visited has ever had a Dave in a high quality speaker based system. And one problem with Dave and Blu 2 and Mscaler , I have  experienced was not enough power or current? delivered to handle very complex and loud passages in some  symphonic works  I had then quite recently been at the actual recording sessions of.
> Ok ,the headphones were Susvara but there was no doubt in my mind that with a good powerful headphone amp  added, things sounded notably cleaner and  closer to how I had heard live at sessions in the hall.
> ...



I don't think there's a compelling business case and profit model for making the headphone amplifier in the Dave more robust. You mention cost as a concern with Chord products, but certainly the upgrades you're hoping for would cause significant price increases. Also, it would likely require a two box unit (PSU), so there goes transportability as well. 

It's already a must for many users to add an external amp for speakers, so I can't see anything changing to better power headphones like the TC or Susvara for a niche set of users given the tradeoffs and costs.


----------



## Reactcore (Mar 26, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> and I would still like to close the small gap from optical to the slightly better sounding USB input



Rob,
In what way is optical behind USB on Dave?
Is not All jitter discarded by buffering?
And is this the same case on HMS?

Sorry i reply on a 2016 post.. im catching up from the start of this thread ..oof


----------



## Christer

number1sixerfan said:


> I don't think there's a compelling business case and profit model for making the headphone amplifier in the Dave more robust. You mention cost as a concern with Chord products, but certainly the upgrades you're hoping for would cause significant price increases. Also, it would likely require a two box unit (PSU), so there goes transportability as well.
> 
> It's already a must for many users to add an external amp for speakers, so I can't see anything changing to better power headphones like the TC or Susvara for a niche set of users given the tradeoffs and costs.


I  guess you are correct regarding  little  "compelling  business case and profit model" with Dave.  Too late and frankly the really demanding headphone I mentioned did not even exist when Dave was designed,but in his defence, Rob did make TT2 notably more capable in that respect, although he compromised  a bit in some other respects compared to Dave. 
Unfortunately it has a lot to do with market segmentation  as I see it, possibly also with max profit margins carefully calculated for each segment in his and the rest  of Chord´s product line.
Actual parts and building  costs are  probably only a mere fraction of it all. 

With Rob  and Chord we very much pay for the many hours he has spent on his products designing and writing the code,both optimised and suitably compromised for each segment in the  product line.

"Now for something completely diffferent" 

Stax SRX900 on order? Did you audition it?

Or are you buying it unheard knowing how transparent Stax electrostats generally tend to be ,expecting this one to be their best ever??

I have not auditioned any Stax headphones  since the 009S,but I am  also a bit  tempted to get  back into electrostats again with headphones ,not only via  speakers.
What about Dan Clark´s closed planars  "Stealth" which Rob  Watts and many but not all reviewers tend to  laud ,have you heard it?
I want to audition it asap, but so far no closed headphone I have ever heard  has been transparent and open sounding enough for me. The Raal SR1A on the other hand, which I see that you also own sound about as open  as a headphone can get imho.
But unlike the Susvara which only needs lots of clean power and current, the RAAL will not even play directly out of Dave it needs a step up box or dedicated amp like an electrostat.

Cheers CC


----------



## adrianm

Reactcore said:


> Rob,
> In what way is optical behind USB on Dave?
> Is not All jitter discarded by buffering?
> 
> Sorry i reply on a 2016 post.. im catching up from the start of this thread ..oof


He actually changed his mind later. And I agreed until I got the Meze Elite. Now I think optical sounds considerably softer and more diffuse, but with better depth and width of the soundstage. Still looking for a way to get the best of both worlds. Time to try Taiko? LOL.


----------



## zen87192

What’s best out of DAVE in to a Headphone Amp? RCA or XLR?


----------



## wasupdog

RCA since Chord dac topology is single ended, but would also depend on the amp pairing.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Christer said:


> I  guess you are correct regarding  little  "compelling  business case and profit model" with Dave.  Too late and frankly the really demanding headphone I mentioned did not even exist when Dave was designed,but in his defence, Rob did make TT2 notably more capable in that respect, although he compromised  a bit in some other respects compared to Dave.
> Unfortunately it has a lot to do with market segmentation  as I see it, possibly also with max profit margins carefully calculated for each segment in his and the rest  of Chord´s product line.
> Actual parts and building  costs are  probably only a mere fraction of it all.
> 
> With Rob  and Chord we very much pay for the many hours he has spent on his products designing and writing the code,both optimised and suitably compromised for each segment in the  product line.



Absolutely. R&D is definitely a major cost factor. I appreciate the design and thought that goes into Chord products, which is why I'm generally ok with their price points. 



Christer said:


> "Now for something completely diffferent"
> 
> Stax SRX900 on order? Did you audition it?
> 
> ...



I don't want to clog the Dave thread, but in short I have the x9000 now. It's definitely one of the best headphones Stax ever made (if not the best, haven't heard Omegas), but is also quite different in presentation than the 009 and others--warmer, more laid back. You can read more in-depth impressions here.

Also, haven't had the chance to hear the Stealth.


----------



## Reactcore

adrianm said:


> He actually changed his mind later. And I agreed until I got the Meze Elite. Now I think optical sounds considerably softer and more diffuse, but with better depth and width of the soundstage. Still looking for a way to get the best of both worlds. Time to try Taiko? LOL.



Oh im enjoying my Wyse D90D7 thinclient PC which i placed a 4TB HDD running stripped simple embedded Win7, F2k and Mediacenter controlling it with my phone using remote control app.

Its as noise quiet a pc can get.. passive cooling and external PSU.
I recently built in a CM6631A USB - optical converter.

Optical to HMS with no other inputs connected to it.


----------



## zen87192 (Mar 26, 2022)

wasupdog said:


> RCA since Chord dac topology is single ended, but would also depend on the amp pairing.


Currently giving a Singxer SA-1 a go which is pretty impressive but may aim at a Benchmark HPA4 or equivalent when I get used to what’s out there and their value for money.


----------



## chesebert

Arniesb said:


> "could not keep up with high instantaneous power requirement during high dynamic and complex passages"
> It could be the same reason why switched mode power supplies suck? Those now days have lower noise figures and measurements dont show their shortcomings...
> Most of the good dacs and amps have massive linear power supplies with massive amount of high end capacitors...
> Bakoon, Sparkos, Headamps, Niimbus and Ferrums amps show worse measurements than Topping amps, but unlike Chinese amps they have Beefy power supplies.
> I can bet that those power supplies that are bought for Dave wont show improvements on Audio Analyser, but people are happy with that upgrade right?


I would not generalize all SMPs as inferior to linear. All my Linn dacs and my Emm Labs have SMPs in there. No issue with dynamic, bass slam, body, weight and warmth. I believe dCS also uses SMP for their dacs (I think Bartok uses both SMP and linear, with linear used for headphone amp). However, all of them roll their own SMPs. For example, Emm Lab's SMP is a fanless, zero-feedback design with two custom-wound transformers, active power-factor correction, and is synchronized to the dac’s high-precision audio clock to further reduce jitter.


----------



## 801evan

Christer said:


> Mscaler may do transients a bit better than PGGB ,but PGGB and Qutest on battery deliver a slightly lower noise floor than Mscaler,audible via headphones and with  large scale symphonic music with a huge dynamic range.
> And when I say huge dynamic range  I do NOT mean the loud parts.



This is true with my experience. Mscaler slightly lifts the noise floor but the reason is perimeter and in-line RF. People have mentioned keeping it 2 feet away from devices and using wavestorms.

After many tests, end of the day, PGGB and HQplayer makes the sound worse and is worse than the mscaler. Best to spend on a better transport. MQA and native 44.1 sounds better than PGGB and HQplayer on a great transport. Vice versa on a weak one. 



Christer said:


> "The Achilles Heel" of Dave could actually be a case of not having enough power or current reserves to drive some the most demanding headphones like Susvara to their full capability with dynamically non compressed large scale symphonic material.



Dave is great on the Susvara, and Stealth. And Susvara is more demanding that the 1266 TC. Dave is very revealing so you need to give it a good transport, a good line conditioner is required and use spdif in. You get good sub bass and good tone even on the stock cable. 



Christer said:


> Of course a battery capable of handling instantaneous power and current requirements optimally while avoiding the drawbacks and limitations of fluctuating and possibly dirty? grid power and the RF issues involved with grid power as well.



I've done a full dc setup. Dedicated powerbank on every device with silver occ dc cables. While better than ac mains with a Weiduka line conditioner, an ipower x with a better line conditioner can beat the powerbank. Powerbank is grainy, very slow, small soundstage (13 inch tablet size) and you can hear the battery churn.



Arniesb said:


> It could be the same reason why switched mode power supplies suck? Those now days have lower noise figures and measurements dont show their shortcomings...



Ifi ipower can beat practically beat all the LPS I've tried. LPS can giving a ringing sound at best and can still have a poor noise floor. Ifi elite can even beat the Hypsos easily. Even better than the lps 1.2 and the farad 3.



Christer said:


> What about Dan Clark´s closed planars "Stealth" which Rob Watts and many but not all reviewers tend to laud ,have you heard it?



Best HP I've heard. Like the Dave, it'll just reveal the quality of your chain upstream. It sounds more open than my open cans. A brilliant device that makes chain diagnosing easier too. All criticisms on the Stealth is just them actually criticizing their chain, not the HP.


----------



## atya35mm

801evan said:


> This is true with my experience. Mscaler slightly lifts the noise floor but the reason is perimeter and in-line RF. People have mentioned keeping it 2 feet away from devices and using wavestorms.
> 
> After many tests, end of the day, PGGB and HQplayer makes the sound worse and is worse than the mscaler. Best to spend on a better transport. MQA and native 44.1 sounds better than PGGB and HQplayer on a great transport. Vice versa on a weak one.
> 
> ...


Can I check what is your typical volume listening well when plugging Susvara direct to Dave? I'm at -3db, and it's about right for me. Would you go past to positive level?


----------



## 801evan (Mar 27, 2022)

atya35mm said:


> Can I check what is your typical volume listening well when plugging Susvara direct to Dave? I'm at -3db, and it's about right for me. Would you go past to positive level?


That's the same for me. I only went to max volume because the src dx was half volume when I got it brand new and had to fix it. After that, it was around -3dB on the Dave.  but you are on HMS which is -3dB. I was mostly not using HMS as I preferred straight CDT. I do range around -6dB to -3dB depending on the loudness of the album.


----------



## Rob Watts

chesebert said:


> I would recommend against battery power for best performance because this has been done to death 20 years ago and the consensus at the time was that you get dynamic limited when you are on battery - even for headphone use. I suspect battery-based power supply simply could not keep up with high instantaneous power requirement during high dynamic and complex passages. You can try again but thought you may find this data point useful.



Just because some do not like the sound of batteries does not mean they are right. Using batteries with conventional amps gives a completely different sound quality, with things sounding hugely warmer and softer - and this is solely down to reduced noise floor modulation. But because it sounds warmer, softer with much better instrument separation and focus, people mistakenly think it lacks dynamics - due to the apparent softness.

This situation reminds me of the time I was designing the Qutest DAC. This was a replacement to the Qute DAC - and some people had replaced the PSU with a linear and stating it sounded better. So I investigated this, and did indeed find that the Qute DAC was sensitive to the PSU. Replacing the 12v PSU with a 12v car battery (300A, huge dynamic current capacity, zero in-band noise, zero RF noise) gave a big improvement in SQ. So I redesigned the internal PSU regulation on Qutest, and found that there was no difference in sound quality going from a car battery to the supplied 12v PSU - this was down to the improved PSU regulation and RF filtering. But of course once Qutest was launched people still preferred the degradations of a linear supply (which are just RF noise and audio noise sources) compared to the supplied PSU.



Reactcore said:


> Rob,
> In what way is optical behind USB on Dave?
> Is not All jitter discarded by buffering?
> And is this the same case on HMS?
> ...



You have discovered a post where I made a mistake. In 2016 with Dave I did indeed prefer the brightness of USB, and I thought it was down to the technical benefits of Dave supplying the clock with USB. But later I bought an MSI gaming laptop that had USB and an optical out. On this laptop I could hear zero difference between USB and optical in sound quality - so the "benefits" of clocking from Dave was an illusion, and the extra brightness was down to USB injecting more RF noise into Dave's earth plane and that creating (unmeasurable) increase in noise floor modulation. This illustrates how easy it is to get it wrong from a listening test - it's almost impossible to tell the difference from a genuine improvement in transparency (brighter sound better detail resolution) to a very small increase in noise floor modulation (brighter sound better detail resolution). Listening tests need to be done very carefully, and one needs to re-evaluate and re-test your assumptions - otherwise true progress will not get made.

Optical should always be considered the reference (best) input. Depending upon the source and your system, you may find USB is as good as optical, or it's not as good when it will sound brighter with degraded depth performance.

Source jitter is removed by my DPLL, as this acts like a buffer, where the data is taken out from the buffer via an FPGA low jitter derived clock that is frequency locked (not phase locked) to the incoming data. Thus source jitter is eliminated, as the data is processed by the local 104.25 MHz low jitter clock.


----------



## adrianm

Rob Watts said:


> Just because some do not like the sound of batteries does not mean they are right. Using batteries with conventional amps gives a completely different sound quality, with things sounding hugely warmer and softer - and this is solely down to reduced noise floor modulation. But because it sounds warmer, softer with much better instrument separation and focus, people mistakenly think it lacks dynamics - due to the apparent softness.
> 
> This situation reminds me of the time I was designing the Qutest DAC. This was a replacement to the Qute DAC - and some people had replaced the PSU with a linear and stating it sounded better. So I investigated this, and did indeed find that the Qute DAC was sensitive to the PSU. Replacing the 12v PSU with a 12v car battery (300A, huge dynamic current capacity, zero in-band noise, zero RF noise) gave a big improvement in SQ. So I redesigned the internal PSU regulation on Qutest, and found that there was no difference in sound quality going from a car battery to the supplied 12v PSU - this was down to the improved PSU regulation and RF filtering. But of course once Qutest was launched people still preferred the degradations of a linear supply (which are just RF noise and audio noise sources) compared to the supplied PSU.
> 
> ...


I'm curious, is this also valid when taking the M-scaler into consideration? I've been using optical for 2 years, but I recently got the Meze Elite, that are much more resolving than my old headphones, and going optical from the streamer into the M-scaler does result in better depth and width, but also a very "soft" and "diffuse" image, with slightly less clarity in vocals for example. USB out of my gaming pc clearly results in more noise( even with a Jitterbug) but Coax out of the streamer gives deeper bass than all above (except maybe optical), a much more focused image (on par with usb), even if slightly more compressed than optical.
    I'm starting to believe the wider image out of Optical was just distortion, since the image is so fuzzy. This has happened before with an optical cable that turned out to be half working, so I went back to the stock optical cable provided, which was fully lit.

For reference, this is the cable that sounded blurry before, a 150 euro "Qed quartz reference optical cable " before replacement:





And this is the stock cable which sounded clearer back then (at least with less resolving headphones) :



Granted ,I have been moving them around for testing ,but i don't think i have  damaged it in the process. Will check again when i get back home. Travelling with Dave atm


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## 801evan (Mar 27, 2022)

adrianm said:


> I'm curious, is this also valid when taking the M-scaler into consideration? I've been using optical for 2 years, but I recently got the Meze Elite, that are much more resolving than my old headphones, and going optical from the streamer into the M-scaler does result in better depth and width, but also a very "soft" and "diffuse" image, with slightly less clarity in vocals for example. USB out of my gaming pc clearly results in more noise( even with a Jitterbug) but Coax out of the streamer gives deeper bass than all above (except maybe optical), a much more focused image (on par with usb), even if slightly more compressed than optical.
> I'm starting to believe the wider image out of Optical was just distortion, since the image is so fuzzy. This has happened before with an optical cable that turned out to be half working, so I went back to the stock optical cable provided, which was fully lit.
> 
> For reference, this is the cable that sounded blurry before, a 150 euro "Qed quartz reference optical cable " before replacement:
> ...


The lights on the multi core optical is dependent on the bend of the cable.

Optical is still the best for me,if it sounds fuzzy, gotta upgrade the upstream device as optical is very sensitive to psu quality and vibration. Place sorbothanes.


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## Reactcore (Mar 27, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> and the extra brightness was down to USB injecting more RF noise into Dave's earth plane and that creating (unmeasurable) increase in noise floor modulation.
> 
> Optical should always be considered the reference (best) input. Depending upon the source and your system, you may find USB is as good as optical, or it's not as good when it will sound brighter with degraded depth performance.



So it is possible to get a tiny piece of the RF devil through USB ground with some sources..

Softer/easier to listen to sound is what i found comparing optical to USB out of my thinclient PC to HMS > Dave.. and i use Dave's HP out and nothing else connected but HMS.  And i like how it sounds now..

In my USB case it must come from my ethernet connection (or less likely the PC's SMPS) i know of users that use ethernet over fiber to work this issue for PC's

Have you heard the DX's optical DBNC solution between HMS-DAC once? I have read your opinion in the beginning of HMS thread stating the lossses if normal ferrites used and benefits of tight certain freq. ferrites (after which Wave jumped in with their products)
Or even the cable length.

Im just wondering if you came to new knowledge concerning the DBNC link and RF.

I use short 25cm standard 75ohm CCTV RG59 cables as opposed to long ones.

Can it be they function as antennas picking up radio interference? (i know the air is polluted with radio signals) So thats why certain lengths work better/worse


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## Reactcore (Mar 27, 2022)

adrianm said:


> I'm curious, is this also valid when taking the M-scaler into consideration? I've been using optical for 2 years, but I recently got the Meze Elite, that are much more resolving than my old headphones, and going optical from the streamer into the M-scaler does result in better depth and width, but also a very "soft" and "diffuse" image, with slightly less clarity in vocals for example. USB out of my gaming pc clearly results in more noise( even with a Jitterbug) but Coax out of the streamer gives deeper bass than all above (except maybe optical), a much more focused image (on par with usb), even if slightly more compressed than optical.
> I'm starting to believe the wider image out of Optical was just distortion, since the image is so fuzzy. This has happened before with an optical cable that turned out to be half working, so I went back to the stock optical cable provided, which was fully lit.
> 
> For reference, this is the cable that sounded blurry before, a 150 euro "Qed quartz reference optical cable " before replacement:
> ...



I have my doubts if multi stranded optical is better than single ones.

Ok thinner strands shorten the inner reflected travel distance of the signal forcing a more straight line.. but on the other side the signal arrives a multitude of times slightly different in time with each strand that may confuse the receiver side.

Longer cables give bigger timing differences than short ones. And bending amplifies this further

I played alot with optical cables with my AK120 DAP that didnt accepted 192khz with some cables .. and landed with a €25 0.5m Audioquest forest single stranded cable.


----------



## 801evan

Reactcore said:


> I have my doubts if multi stranded optical is better than single ones.
> 
> Ok thinner strands shorten the inner reflected travel distance of the signal forcing a more straight line.. but on the other side the signal arrives a multitude of times slightly different in time with each strand that may confuse the receiver side.
> 
> ...


Ironically my 6 ft optical cable sounds better than the 3 feet one. My guess is less bending overall to make the connection happen.


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## chesebert (Mar 27, 2022)

@Rob Watts I am sorry to disappoint you but music reproduction is not a scientific instrument test, what sounds good to me is correct. I buy gear that sounds good.

On the battery power supply, that was the FOTM back when and bunch of people jumped on it and almost everyone has gotten off the hype train. For practical reasons, lead acid battery needs to be charged and discharged and it sucks to wait for battery to charge when you want to listen. Also sucks when the battery needs to be changed eventually. Having a couple big lead acid batteries in the house is also not safe as some of them do leak. The sound is at best different and not clear improvements in all areas - improve in some areas and deficient in others.

I suggest Chord just license an SMP from another British brand that works well instead of having customers spend thousands on some aftermarket power supply.


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## endless402

Rob Watts said:


> Optical should always be considered the reference (best) input. Depending upon the source and your system, you may find USB is as good as optical, or it's not as good when it will sound brighter with degraded depth performance.
> 
> Source jitter is removed by my DPLL, as this acts like a buffer, where the data is taken out from the buffer via an FPGA low jitter derived clock that is frequency locked (not phase locked) to the incoming data. Thus source jitter is eliminated, as the data is processed by the local 104.25 MHz low jitter clock.



Agree. Everyone should test the different outputs of their source and choose the one they like the best. On my source I preferred aes over optical, coaxial and usb.


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## chesebert (Mar 27, 2022)

@Rob Watts On to optical, while in theory optical is superior to physical connection (except for Ethernet) due to true galvanic isolation, in practice optical is perhaps one of the worst if transmitting spdif signal compared to BNC or AES, assuming all else being equal.

I am going to borrow someone explanation because I am too lazy to type. S/PDIF is a horrendously poorly designed interface. This is because it combines the clock and audio coding onto the same signal. The receiver is supposed to recover the clock from this signal as well as extract the audio data. This turns out to be a non-trivial task, and one that almost always leaves the recovered clock contaminated with signal correlated jitter artefacts. So any clock you transmit over an S/PDIF connection that is also carrying audio signals will probably be worse than any internal clock.

Having said that if you are transmitting purely digital signal like fiber, then it’s great.


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## 801evan

Optical has solved a lot of my issues in my chain and made me simply stick to 44.1.

Part of the illusion that higher fs is better is because most likely you'll need USB to prove that and with USB, higher fs simply fills the frames faster so that the USB protocol can send it out sooner than later. This is enough to make a difference.

Spdif is a constant stream and this may partly be the reason for it's superiority.


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## Roybenz

adrianm said:


> Well i can restate the tests i have made :
> Dave from Naim555 with psu (30k streamer) using usb vs Node2i(300 euro streamer) using coax since it had no usb : small difference like you describe,but i can easily attribute that to no galvanic isolation on the coax.
> Auralic Vega G1 streaming to itself off Tidal vs my Macbook pro 16 streaming to it via usb .Sounded absolutely identical. You would think sound doesn't get any "purer " than a dac streaming to itself.
> Multiple tests on the old dac ,laptop vs desktop and jitterbug-same conclusion.
> ...




I’m trying to figure this streamer thing out, I tried a-b for 2 days with qobuz Altair g1- xlr-moon 430had vs my iMac-qobuz-usb-moon 430had. There was no difference. Impossible to pick one out in a blind test. 

Considering getting the Vega g1 which is supposed to be better than Altair g1, but I’m afraid i won’t be able to hear any difference with that either.


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## adrianm (Mar 27, 2022)

Roybenz said:


> I’m trying to figure this streamer thing out, I tried a-b for 2 days with qobuz Altair g1- xlr-moon 430had vs my iMac-qobuz-usb-moon 430had. There was no difference. Impossible to pick one out in a blind test.
> 
> Considering getting the Vega g1 which is supposed to be better than Altair g1, but I’m afraid i won’t be able to hear any difference with that either.


It depends on a lot of things. Differences are so subtle, 2 years after that post i still wonder if i’m crazy sometimes  . With Xlr and usb you’re still not isolating the electrical noise so it makes sense there won’t be much difference .Optical vs anything else is the most obvious.
 I would also say power filtering might also be a factor that would make those differences “pop” even more.


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## endless402

For my system, I had Aq diamond optical, usb and aes. I also had a shunyata aes and esoteric bnc. 

When comparing the aq cables (because I wanted to be consistent), aes was the best and optical was the worse. Optical was more dynamic but much more fatiguing because the highs were too bright. 
Usb was also bright sounding on the highs but wasn’t as fatiguing. 
Aes was the best for me. 
Everything is ymmv because my source has an oxco clock on aes and coaxial.


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## Reactcore

chesebert said:


> in practice optical is perhaps one of the worst if transmitting spdif signal compared to BNC or AES, assuming all else being equal.



All true.

But as i understood.. Rob's dac's do actually reclock buffer stored data inside.

Like filling a sandwalker with horrendous varying speeds.. but through the narrow hole the sand flows out with steady speed.

So eliminated the jitter leaves only the benefit of optical: being best RF isolation


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## chesebert (Mar 27, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> All true.
> 
> But as i understood.. Rob's dac's do actually reclock buffer stored data inside.
> 
> ...


But Chord is still using PLL to drive the clock distribution in the dac. So garbage in garbage out. If your clock is contaminated from getting muxed with data, it doesn't matter how good your PLL is you will still get error in the clock. The only solution to this is to use external clock and drive both the transport and the dac using the same master clock. The best solution is to avoid spdif encoding in the first place.

Forgot to mention the FIFO "buffer" you mentioned. I am sure Chord buffers the data and reclocks it out, but it's the same "damaged" clock from the spdif signal from the PLL output.


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## 801evan

Roybenz said:


> I’m trying to figure this streamer thing out, I tried a-b for 2 days with qobuz Altair g1- xlr-moon 430had vs my iMac-qobuz-usb-moon 430had. There was no difference. Impossible to pick one out in a blind test.
> 
> Considering getting the Vega g1 which is supposed to be better than Altair g1, but I’m afraid i won’t be able to hear any difference with that either.


You are upgrading the wrong thing at the wrong time if this is the case. There's a bigger bottleneck, weak link somewhere else.


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## Roybenz

adrianm said:


> It depends on a lot of things. Differences are so subtle, 2 years after that post i still wonder if i’m crazy sometimes  . With Xlr and usb you’re still not isolating the electrical noise so it makes sense there won’t be much difference .Optical vs anything else is the most obvious.
> I would also say power filtering might also be a factor that would make those differences “pop” even more.



The store said it was best to use the balanced xlr, they gave me Midas reference to try. I also have a isotek power filter. For usb i use heimdall 2.


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## Rob Watts

chesebert said:


> But Chord is still using PLL to drive the clock distribution in the dac. So garbage in garbage out. If your clock is contaminated from getting muxed with data, it doesn't matter how good your PLL is you will still get error in the clock. The only solution to this is to use external clock and drive both the transport and the dac using the same master clock. The best solution is to avoid spdif encoding in the first place.
> 
> Forgot to mention the FIFO "buffer" you mentioned. I am sure Chord buffers the data and reclocks it out, but it's the same "damaged" clock from the spdif signal from the PLL output.


Its clear you have no idea what you are talking about.

There are no PLLs within Chord DACs, there exists only one clock which is fixed and very low jitter, and this clock drives the entire digital audio path.


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## chesebert (Mar 28, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> Its clear you have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> There are no PLLs within Chord DACs, there exists only one clock which is fixed and very low jitter, and this clock drives the entire digital audio path.


Alright, how are you recovering the clock from the spdif signal?

I note you wrote this yourself: "Because video is very important to me, I wanted a system that would eliminate the PLL SQ problems, and so I developed the DPLL system that you can find on all my DAC's - and it took many years to perfect." As far as I am aware, DPLL is still PLL.

Also, if I am wrong, you can tell me the correct answer. Not sure if this type of response is good marketing...I suppose some appreciate this communication style.


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## AnakChan (Mar 28, 2022)

I’ve cleaned up this thread deleting posts of about burn in/break in, etc. Please stay on course to the subject of this thread.


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## Rob Watts

chesebert said:


> Alright, how are you recovering the clock from the spdif signal?
> 
> I note you wrote this yourself: "Because video is very important to me, I wanted a system that would eliminate the PLL SQ problems, and so I developed the DPLL system that you can find on all my DAC's - and it took many years to perfect." As far as I am aware, DPLL is still PLL.
> 
> Also, if I am wrong, you can tell me the correct answer. Not sure if this type of response is good marketing...I suppose some appreciate this communication style.



So firstly there is no master clock to be recovered from the SPDIF - but I digitally convert the SPDIF format into a parallel I2s like format - that is word clock, data left and data right. The word clock is extracted directly from the pre-amble, this word clock extraction only works on the fixed pre-amble so has no possibility of data related jitter, unlike using a conventional PLL based clock extraction, which relies on all transitions, pre-amble and data.

The extracted word clock then is fed to the DPLL. I should not call it a DPLL, (DFLL is more appropriate term) as phase locking is only applied initially; once initial lock is obtained, it works upon frequency only and is frequency locked to the incoming word clock - so the phase (and hence jitter) of the incoming word clock has zero influence on the generated word clock, which is generated from the local low jitter 104.25MHz fixed frequency oscillator. The DPLL ensures that the generated word clock is frequency locked to the incoming word clock, and it has a time constant of many seconds.

Meanwhile the data is fed into a micro buffer, and the data is read out from the buffer via the generated word clock, which is synchronous to the 104.25MHz low jitter fixed clock. 

But I can talk as much technicalities as I like - ultimately it does not matter. The fact is that using my MSI lap-top I got identical sound quality from using optical SPDIF as using USB with Dave. USB of course is asynchronous, the data is fed to the DAC with an integer count of the 104.25 MHz low jitter clock, so no clock generation is done at all, nor any conversions from SPDIF to parallel data either. So I know the DPLL system is innately transparent. This does not mean that all USB sources sound the same as optical, as the galvanic isolation on the USB is not perfect - some RF noise can leak into the DACs ground plane from noisy USB sources via the 2pF isolation capacitance on the USB interface. But you can treat the optical input as the SQ reference, with USB either sounding identical to optical or worse, depending upon the cables and the source and how much RF noise is fed into the DAC.


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## The Jester

So there’s no possibility of USB sounding any better than optical unless the optical output of the source is inferior to its USB implementation, leaving the only reason for using a USB input down to the 96k (sometimes 192k) limit of optical cables ?


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## MvRBE10

I always have 192k (not sometimes) on my optical input, whatever cable i use. I had the 192k when i used mt node2i and same onnthe aurender n10 now. Maybe you have a problem on your streamer side.


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## The Jester

No problems here, only need 16/44.1 from CD transport and server, apart from the odd 24/96 download.


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## JGoose

Was over on another forum and saw a post from a new shop about a Chord Electronics Open day they are running. One line stood out from the rest:

"Chord Electronics will be launching a brand-new Ultima Product at the Open Day". The Ultima series only seems to be missing one thing an Ultima Source/DAC! It's got to be right?

Thought I would come to share the news here and see what you guys think. I know Rob Watts likes to join in the discussion, has there been any mention?


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## skootb (Mar 28, 2022)

chesebert said:


> Not sure if this type of response is good marketing...I suppose some appreciate this communication style.


Being able to directly communicate with a product's designer seems like great marketing to me


----------



## Jawed

JGoose said:


> Was over on another forum and saw a post from a new shop about a Chord Electronics Open day they are running. One line stood out from the rest:
> 
> "Chord Electronics will be launching a brand-new Ultima Product at the Open Day".


Ultima 4? 500W per channel stereo amp in a "double height" chassis?


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## adrianm

JGoose said:


> Was over on another forum and saw a post from a new shop about a Chord Electronics Open day they are running. One line stood out from the rest:
> 
> "Chord Electronics will be launching a brand-new Ultima Product at the Open Day". The Ultima series only seems to be missing one thing an Ultima Source/DAC! It's got to be right?
> 
> Thought I would come to share the news here and see what you guys think. I know Rob Watts likes to join in the discussion, has there been any mention?


The Ultima series is an amplifier product line. There's really no chance it will be a dac. My hope and best bet would be a new headphone amplifier, though it might just be more of the same.


----------



## Torq

Reactcore said:


> I have my doubts if multi stranded optical is better than single ones.
> 
> Ok thinner strands shorten the inner reflected travel distance of the signal forcing a more straight line.. but on the other side the signal arrives a multitude of times slightly different in time with each strand that may confuse the receiver side.



In practice, this is a non-issue.

The principal cause of jitter in TOSLINK is the rise/fall time of the optical pulses, which is a factor of the emitter and receiver.

Typical times here are 30-40ns.

That's vs. the 80ns pulse duration of a 192 kHz TOSLINK stream (the signaling speed for which varies *only* by sample rate, *not* bit-depth).

If you took a cheap glass (unclad fibers) multi-strand cable, 10m long (the practical limit here), and measured the time-of-flight for two photons, one following a 100% straight path, the other taking the longest possible path (i.e. the maximum degree of bending and internal reflection) then the difference between the two would be *25ns*.  That, of course, is a massively exaggerated, worst-case, example, and cannot happen in a real cable.

If you do the same thing with a better multi-strand glass cable, using clad fibers, the difference drops to *3ns*.

Curiously, those numbers do not actually change meaningfully with a single-strand cable, as the principal cause of internal reflections (i.e. a non-straight path for every photon) is that the light source is not well aligned to the fiber and the light itself is incoherent.  The photons are already entering the fiber(s) at significantly varying angles, so they all take different paths "bouncing" through that single fiber anyway ... even if it is 100% straight.

---

That's a long way of saying that, while the differences you cite do exist - in practical terms they're so small in effect as to be completely dwarfed by other issues in the system and have no practical, measurable, effect on the actual clock/jitter.  Other issue with the system effectively mask them.


----------



## atya35mm

quick question all, can’t seem to find this info searching the thread but pretty sure it was mentioned here before, but can I find out what is the recommended db volume for normal RCA output of 2v out of Dave with M scaler? I understand M scaler reduce volume by -3db, so would leaving Dave at -3db technically mean -6db with M scaler already doing -3db. And is -6db = 2v ish?


----------



## genefruit

atya35mm said:


> quick question all, can’t seem to find this info searching the thread but pretty sure it was mentioned here before, but can I find out what is the recommended db volume for normal RCA output of 2v out of Dave with M scaler? I understand M scaler reduce volume by -3db, so would leaving Dave at -3db technically mean -6db with M scaler already doing -3db. And is -6db = 2v ish?


Based on a chart previously posted but I don’t have the direct link, 
2V DAVE = -7 
2V HMS&DAVE =-4.


----------



## atya35mm

genefruit said:


> Based on a chart previously posted but I don’t have the direct link,
> 2V DAVE = -7
> 2V HMS&DAVE =-4.


Perfect! Thank you good sir!


----------



## Reactcore (Mar 28, 2022)

Torq said:


> In practice, this is a non-issue.
> 
> The principal cause of jitter in TOSLINK is the rise/fall time of the optical pulses, which is a factor of the emitter and receiver.
> 
> ...



With confusing the receiver im not pointing to jitter but the receiver mistaking 1's for 0's or visa versa cause of the longer 'light on' times due to overlap of the strands light pulse arrivals.




With higher sample rates the overall pulses time is shorter making the overlap error of longer on times more relevant. 192k seems to be on the edge of the tolerance


----------



## sm60

Reactcore said:


> With confusing the receiver im not pointing to jitter but the receiver mistaking 1's for 0's or visa versa cause of the longer 'light on' times due to overlap of the strands light pulse arrivals.
> 
> 
> 
> With higher sample rates the overall pulses time is shorter making the overlap error of longer on times more relevant. 192k seems to be on the edge of the tolerance


I find it hard to get motivated by these arcane discussions about whether optical is better than USB or SPDIF or whatever. Any of these interfaces has a million times lower distortion than the lowest distortion headphone or speaker on the planet. When I stream a high Rez album on Qobuz, it could be traveling thousands of miles through hundreds of links, who knows how many transmitters are involved. Yet barring a technical glitch in my local internet, I get the original file intact bit by bit perfect. End of story. If you want to solve the really hard problems in high fidelity, focus on the headphone or speaker design problem. That’s where the challenges lie. Headphones are so bad a transducer  and distort so badly, it’s a joke.  On control your room resonances. Trying to minimize absolutely trivial amounts of digital noise on a 1 meter optical or USB link is so silly, all my CS and ECE colleagues will laugh themselves to death over it. Heck, we can receive beautiful pristine images from the James Webb telescope that is now 1 million miles away from Earth. Heck, we can detect two galaxies colliding billions of light years away releasing more energy in one collision than all the observable matter in the universe using LIGO detectors. The engineering challenges here are so formidable that they took decades to solve to make sure the measurements are not corrupted by noise. Worrying over digital noise in a 1 meter cable is really wasting time over an absolute triviality.

Just my $0.02! Feel free to ignore me and continue this discussion. 😄


----------



## Torq

Reactcore said:


> With confusing the receiver im not pointing to jitter but the receiver mistaking 1's for 0's or visa versa cause of the longer 'light on' times due to overlap of the strands light pulse arrivals.



The difference in maximum potential (i.e. worst-case-scenario) signal ToF differential within a multi-strand cable is insufficient to cause this.  The typical scenario is an order of magnitude better than that.  It also does not meaningfully change from a single-strand cable vs. multi-stand - assuming similar aggregate fiber diameter and materials.  Typically multi-strand fibers are clad, which dramatically improves their RI vs. unclad, further reducing the potential delta.

In practical implementations, it just doesn't matter.



Reactcore said:


> With higher sample rates the overall pulses time is shorter making the overlap error of longer on times more relevant. 192k seems to be on the edge of the tolerance



192 kHz is double the original sample rate for the TOSLINK spec.  It is at the edges of tolerance because it needs 80ns pulses for the S/PDIF subframes, and the typical TOSLINK emitter/receiver has a rise/fall time of 30-40ns (which yields a 50% tolerance for a 96 kHz sample rate).  For reliable discrimination you need the rise/fall time to be half (ideally less) of the pulse duration.

A marginal emitter/receiver (or a bad pairing - i.e. technically suitable devices, but each operating at the wrong ends of their performance tolerance/rating) may not rise/fall fast enough to maintain clean 80ns pulses.  When this happens, the connection fails  ... rather than 0s or 1s being misinterpreted.

You'll usually see more variation in the performance of a TOSLINK connection based on how well aligned and tolerance the sockets are than you will in the same connection using a multi-strand vs. single-strand cable.


----------



## Reactcore

sm60 said:


> I find it hard to get motivated by these arcane discussions about whether optical is better than USB or SPDIF or whatever. Any of these interfaces has a million times lower distortion than the lowest distortion headphone or speaker on the planet. When I stream a high Rez album on Qobuz, it could be traveling thousands of miles through hundreds of links, who knows how many transmitters are involved. Yet barring a technical glitch in my local internet, I get the original file intact bit by bit perfect. End of story. If you want to solve the really hard problems in high fidelity, focus on the headphone or speaker design problem. That’s where the challenges lie. Headphones are so bad a transducer  and distort so badly, it’s a joke.  On control your room resonances. Trying to minimize absolutely trivial amounts of digital noise on a 1 meter optical or USB link is so silly, all my CS and ECE colleagues will laugh themselves to death over it. Heck, we can receive beautiful pristine images from the James Webb telescope that is now 1 million miles away from Earth. Heck, we can detect two galaxies colliding billions of light years away releasing more energy in one collision than all the observable matter in the universe using LIGO detectors. The engineering challenges here are so formidable that they took decades to solve to make sure the measurements are not corrupted by noise. Worrying over digital noise in a 1 meter cable is really wasting time over an absolute triviality.
> 
> Just my $0.02! Feel free to ignore me and continue this discussion. 😄


Oops you seemed to have been landed on a HiFi freak's forum😅

We are merely discussing why a user's streamer wont do 192k files on optical and trying to see if a different cable choice might do the trick lol


----------



## muski

Just caught up on the past few pages of this thread. It's really interesting to read a post and then compute the author's Likes/Post ratio. Rob's ratio is an enviable 3.3! Others are not so high. Hmmmm...

muski


----------



## chesebert (Mar 28, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> So firstly there is no master clock to be recovered from the SPDIF - but I digitally convert the SPDIF format into a parallel I2s like format - that is word clock, data left and data right. The word clock is extracted directly from the pre-amble, this word clock extraction only works on the fixed pre-amble so has no possibility of data related jitter, unlike using a conventional PLL based clock extraction, which relies on all transitions, pre-amble and data.
> 
> The extracted word clock then is fed to the DPLL. I should not call it a DPLL, (DFLL is more appropriate term) as phase locking is only applied initially; once initial lock is obtained, it works upon frequency only and is frequency locked to the incoming word clock - so the phase (and hence jitter) of the incoming word clock has zero influence on the generated word clock, which is generated from the local low jitter 104.25MHz fixed frequency oscillator. The DPLL ensures that the generated word clock is frequency locked to the incoming word clock, and it has a time constant of many seconds.
> 
> ...


Is this a really complicated way to say chord uses spdif to i2s conversion using ASRC? An ASRC block does solve the clock jitter/noise issue.


----------



## Rob Watts

The Jester said:


> So there’s no possibility of USB sounding any better than optical unless the optical output of the source is inferior to its USB implementation, leaving the only reason for using a USB input down to the 96k (sometimes 192k) limit of optical cables ?



There is no possibility of USB performing better than optical (excepting opticals 192k limit). And I use the term performing rather than sounding better as "sounding" depends upon the ear and taste of the beholder - and there is no accounting for that!

Ideally, it would be better if all USB bit perfect sources sounded identical to all bit perfect optical sources, then the source arguments would cease - in the same way when you used a noisy RF linear PSU it sounded identical to the supplied SMPS (power delivery the same) then the linear arguments would cease. It's my goal to have DACs in the future being able to accomplish this - but this actually is a very much bigger challenge than one might think at first - as the ear/brain is extremely sensitive to minute and immeasurable levels of noise floor modulation. And its changes in noise floor modulation in the analogue portion of the DAC that accounts for the SQ changes one hears from PSUs and digital sources.

No doubt after spending many years (or decades?) in the future creating such a stupendous DAC that was completely immune to RF noise from the source and the PSU, some audiophile would then criticise this DAC for not being "transparent" because they can't hear differences from sources... C'est la vie, or you can't please all the people all the time!


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## Reactcore (Mar 29, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> There is no possibility of USB performing better than optical (excepting opticals 192k limit). And I use the term performing rather than sounding better as "sounding" depends upon the ear and taste of the beholder - and there is no accounting for that!
> 
> Ideally, it would be better if all USB bit perfect sources sounded identical to all bit perfect optical sources, then the source arguments would cease - in the same way when you used a noisy RF linear PSU it sounded identical to the supplied SMPS (power delivery the same) then the linear arguments would cease. It's my goal to have DACs in the future being able to accomplish this - but this actually is a very much bigger challenge than one might think at first - as the ear/brain is extremely sensitive to minute and immeasurable levels of noise floor modulation. And its changes in noise floor modulation in the analogue portion of the DAC that accounts for the SQ changes one hears from PSUs and digital sources.
> 
> No doubt after spending many years (or decades?) in the future creating such a stupendous DAC that was completely immune to RF noise from the source and the PSU, some audiophile would then criticise this DAC for not being "transparent" because they can't hear differences from sources... C'est la vie, or you can't please all the people all the time!



Lucky us we have a enormously patient Rob willing to keep us all informed.. even if sometimes he has to repeat the same kind of answers 👍


----------



## Malcyg

Rob Watts said:


> No doubt after spending many years (or decades?) in the future creating such a stupendous DAC that was completely immune to RF noise from the source and the PSU, some audiophile would then criticise this DAC for not being "transparent" because they can't hear differences from sources... C'est la vie



That did make me chuckle. 😁


----------



## Jawed

Rob Watts said:


> And its changes in noise floor modulation in the analogue portion of the DAC that accounts for the SQ changes one hears from PSUs and digital sources.


Would a valve (tube) be more resilient against noise floor modulation?

It seems that noise floor modulation occurs due to intermodulation distortions and I'm wondering whether the distortion characteristics of a valve-based output would reduce the sensitivity of the output stage to RF noise.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> The lights on the multi core optical is dependent on the bend of the cable.
> 
> Optical is still the best for me,if it sounds fuzzy, gotta upgrade the upstream device as optical is very sensitive to psu quality and vibration. Place sorbothanes.


I mean, upgrade it to what? It's not exactly a cheap source. I'm extremely skeptical regarding anti-vibration treatment for a headphone setup.


----------



## The Jester

Rob Watts said:


> There is no possibility of USB performing better than optical (excepting opticals 192k limit). And I use the term performing rather than sounding better as "sounding" depends upon the ear and taste of the beholder - and there is no accounting for that!
> 
> Ideally, it would be better if all USB bit perfect sources sounded identical to all bit perfect optical sources, then the source arguments would cease - in the same way when you used a noisy RF linear PSU it sounded identical to the supplied SMPS (power delivery the same) then the linear arguments would cease. It's my goal to have DACs in the future being able to accomplish this - but this actually is a very much bigger challenge than one might think at first - as the ear/brain is extremely sensitive to minute and immeasurable levels of noise floor modulation. And its changes in noise floor modulation in the analogue portion of the DAC that accounts for the SQ changes one hears from PSUs and digital sources.
> 
> No doubt after spending many years (or decades?) in the future creating such a stupendous DAC that was completely immune to RF noise from the source and the PSU, some audiophile would then criticise this DAC for not being "transparent" because they can't hear differences from sources... C'est la vie, or you can't please all the people all the time!


For me at least a perfect reply, all I want from my CD collection is to hear as accurately as possible what’s on the disc, all of what’s on the disc and only what’s on the disc, you don’t need to go too many pages into any dedicated component thread to find cable discussions and opinions, likewise power supply options, so now close the book on sources and their interconnect cables and pursue possibly more meaningful improvements further down the chain, headphones, speakers, etc.. 👍


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> I mean, upgrade it to what? It's not exactly a cheap source. I'm extremely skeptical regarding anti-vibration treatment for a headphone setup.


Oh you have a good source actually. Well you're hitting a point where you need to consider isolations. I use sorbothanes on everything and it's the biggest reason I'm getting good blacks and stable imaging. Clocks are sensitive to mechanical vibration so one must use isolation not just for external dampening but internally generated vibrations too.


----------



## Rob Watts

Jawed said:


> Would a valve (tube) be more resilient against noise floor modulation?
> 
> It seems that noise floor modulation occurs due to intermodulation distortions and I'm wondering whether the distortion characteristics of a valve-based output would reduce the sensitivity of the output stage to RF noise.



OK noise floor modulations in a valve (or vacuum tube) based output stage would definitely be worse than bipolar (particularly when using my second order noise shaping OP structure) as there is little global feedback to reduce the in-band noise floor modulation. Feedback definitely reduces noise floor modulation when the cause is OP stage non-linearity.

But consider the input stage. This is more complex, as some input stage distortions are not corrected by feedback - consider a non-linear input current that modulates the voltage on the input resistors - feedback won't fix that. And here it's much more complex, and it's possible that valves with a high grid voltage swing may be more tolerant. So would I consider using a valve input stage? Definitely not; the poor transconductance of valves over bipolar (some 20 times worse) means that the virtual earth performance of the amp would be damaged, and the virtual earth impedance for the DAC is absolutely crucial to get no noise floor modulation from the DAC switching elements. This is a much bigger problem than the input stage non-linearity.

Moreover, the secret to removing RF is to use lots of localised RF filtering - and 1mm of track impedance can make a huge difference. I once did a DAC prototype (15 years ago) that used a small zero ohm SMD resistor as a shorting link on the virtual ground summing point. The design had measurable noise floor modulation; and I couldn't get rid of it. Replacing 1.5mm SMD zero ohms with a wire link eliminated the issue. So using a huge valves as a differential input would be impossible to decouple effectively over the 100kHz-10GHz bandwidth.

Valve amps sound soft and warm because of poorer damping factor, transformers in the OP stage, coupling capacitors and the increase in even order harmonics. It's possible that noise floor modulation plays a part in this too; but possible bipolar disadvantages are hugely outweighed by the benefits of allowing better RF filtering, and the elimination of OP stage created noise floor modulation. Looking at some valve amp measurements, they look horrendous - with evidence of PSU noise floor modulation, and anharmonic distortions (which sound like noise floor modulation too), so the evidence suggests that it's not better noise floor modulation that gives valve amps their warmth but simple distortions.


----------



## sm60

Rob Watts said:


> OK noise floor modulations in a valve (or vacuum tube) based output stage would definitely be worse than bipolar (particularly when using my second order noise shaping OP structure) as there is little global feedback to reduce the in-band noise floor modulation. Feedback definitely reduces noise floor modulation when the cause is OP stage non-linearity.
> 
> But consider the input stage. This is more complex, as some input stage distortions are not corrected by feedback - consider a non-linear input current that modulates the voltage on the input resistors - feedback won't fix that. And here it's much more complex, and it's possible that valves with a high grid voltage swing may be more tolerant. So would I consider using a valve input stage? Definitely not; the poor transconductance of valves over bipolar (some 20 times worse) means that the virtual earth performance of the amp would be damaged, and the virtual earth impedance for the DAC is absolutely crucial to get no noise floor modulation from the DAC switching elements. This is a much bigger problem than the input stage non-linearity.
> 
> ...


Yes, but any half way decent valve amplifier has infinitely better measurements than any headphone or speaker I have seen. Even the 70 year old Quad II or McIntosh 275 amplifier perform far better than most loudspeakers or headphones on this planet. And if you want to really get state of the art in valve technology check out the measurements of the latest McIntosh 1100 two chassis valve preamplifier. Hi Fi News measured something like 0.0005% THD of this preamplifier. I’d like to see a headphone or speaker perform anywhere close to that, heck I’d settle for a speaker that won’t distort at 10% THD like many popular moving coil loudspeakers do in the bass. Don’t believe me? Check out the measurements of the latest Kef LS 50 Meta loudspeaker in audioscience.com — under 200 Hz, even at 85 dB, the THD of this speaker is off the charts. 

Like I said, you’re all welcome to continue this discussion of USB vs optical, but it’s a ridiculously academic discussion in light of the absolutely horrible performance of headphones and loudspeakers. I’m talking of distortion that’s a million times larger. The $600 Topping DAC has linearity errors that are less than -130dB on ANY input, USB or optical or AES or I2S. There’s no speaker or headphone on the planet that has linearity error less than -60dB. Even the wonderful Quad electrostatics that I have used for 30+ years have -70dB distortion only above 100Hz and that too only for sound pressure levels around 85 dB. Over 90 dB, the Quad 63 overloads quickly in the bass, although the region above 100 Hz  still performs admirably. Other moving coil speakers perform dreadfully. Ever seen what inputting a square wave produces from your average moving coil? It’s a shambles. Only a small handful of phase accurate speakers like the Quad produce a reasonably accurate square wave at the output when fed one at the input. 

You’re all barking up the wrong tree here fretting over optical vs USB, and ignoring the elephant in the room: your speakers or headphones. The day we can stream bits directly into our brains through neural implants and avoid headphones or speakers will introduce a new era in high fidelity. Or someone figures out how to do a truly digital headphone or speaker that avoids any D-to-A conversion prior to it.


----------



## 801evan

sm60 said:


> There’s no speaker or headphone on the planet that has linearity error less than -60dB.


DCA Stealth is THD .03% on a good part of the band which equates to -70dB


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> Oh you have a good source actually. Well you're hitting a point where you need to consider isolations. I use sorbothanes on everything and it's the biggest reason I'm getting good blacks and stable imaging. Clocks are sensitive to mechanical vibration so one must use isolation not just for external dampening but internally generated vibrations too.


*puts on tinfoil hat* Do you have a link? i'm not even sure what i would be looking for or why it would make a difference in a headphone setup, but i am curious to (not) hear it for myself.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> *puts on tinfoil hat* Do you have a link? i'm not even sure what i would be looking for or why it would make a difference in a headphone setup, but i am curious to (not) hear it for myself.


https://www.isolateit.com/collections/hemispheres-bumpers

Only the skeptics lose out. You have to pick a set with the right load. Everything needs to be sorbothaned. I had at least 10 devices except the src dx on sorbothanes and I felt the Dave to Susvara setup was underwhelming. I was being lazy but when I did finally place sorbothanes after a few days, I got the blacks and huge soundstage I was expecting.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> https://www.isolateit.com/collections/hemispheres-bumpers
> 
> Only the skeptics lose out. You have to pick a set with the right load. Everything needs to be sorbothaned. I had at least 10 devices except the src dx on sorbothanes and I felt the Dave to Susvara setup was underwhelming. I was being lazy but when I did finally place sorbothanes after a few days, I got the blacks and huge soundstage I was expecting.


So what is he "right load" for Dave, M-scaler, etc?


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## 801evan

adrianm said:


> So what is he "right load" for Dave, M-scaler, etc?


Well, get the weight of both units and divvy it up to 3 or 4 (as feet) to find the Sorbothanes you need. There's a graph on each page to show load capacity.


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## adrianm

801evan said:


> DCA Stealth is THD .03% on a good part of the band which equates to -70dB


.05% for the Elites, 0.1% for the LCD-5. They are getting better  I do have an old Yamaha soundbar that has 10% distortion, i wasn't aware that there is still hi-fi in that range.


----------



## chesebert

Being neurotic about THD is not healthy and at the end of the day THD is not really all that meaningful in music reproduction (apart from obviously broken equipment).


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## adrianm (Mar 30, 2022)

sm60 said:


> Yes, but any half way decent valve amplifier has infinitely better measurements than any headphone or speaker I have seen. Even the 70 year old Quad II or McIntosh 275 amplifier perform far better than most loudspeakers or headphones on this planet. And if you want to really get state of the art in valve technology check out the measurements of the latest McIntosh 1100 two chassis valve preamplifier. Hi Fi News measured something like 0.0005% THD of this preamplifier. I’d like to see a headphone or speaker perform anywhere close to that, heck I’d settle for a speaker that won’t distort at 10% THD like many popular moving coil loudspeakers do in the bass. Don’t believe me? Check out the measurements of the latest Kef LS 50 Meta loudspeaker in audioscience.com — under 200 Hz, even at 85 dB, the THD of this speaker is off the charts.
> 
> Like I said, you’re all welcome to continue this discussion of USB vs optical, but it’s a ridiculously academic discussion in light of the absolutely horrible performance of headphones and loudspeakers. I’m talking of distortion that’s a million times larger. The $600 Topping DAC has linearity errors that are less than -130dB on ANY input, USB or optical or AES or I2S. There’s no speaker or headphone on the planet that has linearity error less than -60dB. Even the wonderful Quad electrostatics that I have used for 30+ years have -70dB distortion only above 100Hz and that too only for sound pressure levels around 85 dB. Over 90 dB, the Quad 63 overloads quickly in the bass, although the region above 100 Hz  still performs admirably. Other moving coil speakers perform dreadfully. Ever seen what inputting a square wave produces from your average moving coil? It’s a shambles. Only a small handful of phase accurate speakers like the Quad produce a reasonably accurate square wave at the output when fed one at the input.
> 
> You’re all barking up the wrong tree here fretting over optical vs USB, and ignoring the elephant in the room: your speakers or headphones. The day we can stream bits directly into our brains through neural implants and avoid headphones or speakers will introduce a new era in high fidelity. Or someone figures out how to do a truly digital headphone or speaker that avoids any D-to-A conversion prior to it.


   I really wasn't looking to start a philosophical debate on Optical vs USB and  Coax. I just stated that it sounds *noticeably* worse to me with via the M-scaler since getting new headphones. This is in spite of the RF noise that is clearly entering Dave, that affects the soundstage width and depth. I've been advocating for optical for 2 years now so I am surprised by this and trying to get to the bottom of it since it's very much a practical issue for me, and adding to the list of frustrations adding up with the M-scaler.
   Something else that is now audible to me is the degradation that cross feed introduces, especially at level 3. This+ Optical sounded like a mushy mess compared to using coaxial, where everything is much sharper and well defined. I'm not saying it's because I can hear a difference between 0.05% and 0.78% (The max that Jude measured in the bass for the Z1R) but I am re-evaluating things and coming to different conclusions.


----------



## simorag

Since I have got my new music server and the SRC*DX I was planning to do a test of a simplified version of my system.

I am not at ease with myself by knowing how many boxes and cables are put in between the server and the DAVE in my current setup, which is the crazy mess listed below:

USB > SRC*DX > 2x BNC > M-Scaler (on battery) > OPTO*DX T (on battery) > 2x optical > OPTO*DX R (on battery) > 2x BNC > 2x DC*STOP > DAVE

I was aiming to reduce to USB > SRC*DX > 2x BNC > DAVE, and having experienced the benefits of feeding the DAVE with 705/768 material via the M Scaler during the last 4 years or so, I also used the demo version of PGGB to remaster a set of the albums I use for reference to evaluate new components in my audio rig.

 

In my testing it was easy to compare PGGB vs non-PGGB tracks, while to compare the 'complex' version of my sytem (upscaling via M Scaler) vs. the 'simplified' version (no upscaling, or upscaling via PGGB), I had to swap cables, which takes about 30 seconds. This is way more than enough for my weak aural memory to fade, but I learnt that instant A/B tests are not necessarily what works best for me anyway.

My findings have been as follows:

After several years of addiction to M Scaler, going back to solo DAVE was a clear downgrade to my ears. I did some back and forth test with the M Scaler already in the early times and I always found that, while I was convinced about the HMS since I first listened to it, its qualities are even more apparent when you take it out. The music feels immediately harder, more mechanical, less engaging. The rythmic flow seems to lose grip, with a resulting flattening of the presentation. Also, soundstage size collapsed by a very audible notch.
PGGB is real, as PGGB'ed files sounded consistently better than the respective native ones. This was easier to perceive with 16/44.1 source material. I also compared different variants of PGGB, and I found that the Natural-Moderate was my preferred configuration due to some additional body;
PGGB vs. M Scaler was a though call, but if I am being honest to myself, as biased I was towards PGGB in my quest for simplification, I still believe that I like what the M Scaler does a bit better. I seem to perceive a more immersive experience through the HMS (slightly better sense of space, especially depth) and some further smoothening of the musical flow. 
As I am using Qobuz for the most part of my listening, which on my system currently implies no way of using PGGB, it turns out that removing the M Scaler from the chain is not an option.

So for now I am putting the system simplification project on hold. I will revisit it when Taiko will come out with their own XDMS playback software integration with PGGB realtime processing capabilities, which seems to be on their development roadmap.

But, by then perhaps Chord will have come out with something new from the sorcerer @Rob Watts that changes the scenario again, who knows ...


----------



## adrianm

simorag said:


> Since I have got my new music server and the SRC*DX I was planning to do a test of a simplified version of my system.
> 
> I am not at ease with myself by knowing how many boxes and cables are put in between the server and the DAVE in my current setup


It's funny, this is exactly what I'm doing now , only using HQplayer, since I don't actually own any music, or  intend to. My patience has ended way before getting to the Opto-DX.  I can clearly hear a need for another USB source, though i'm not so sure there is a need for even an SRC-DX.
     Is it a clear upgrade over a low powered source, like a raspberry Pi connected to Dave via USB? I'm considering an Innuos Zen via usb and calling it a day.


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## SteveHulk

It is almost as if there should be a thread separate from the DAVE thread and the M Scaler thread -  a "DAVE & M Scaler" thread where people who run both can comment on the particulars of running the Chord digital front end consisting of both devices.


----------



## No KNOTsense

Is the Dave's headphone driving power as good or superior to the Hugo 2? My TT2 is out of commission as I wait for it to be repaired so I've been using my Hugo 2 with my M Scaler for the last few weeks. I'm thinking of trading up to the Dave once the TT2 is fixed.


----------



## DJJEZ

No KNOTsense said:


> Is the Dave's headphone driving power as good or superior to the Hugo 2? My TT2 is out of commission as I wait for it to be repaired so I've been using my Hugo 2 with my M Scaler for the last few weeks. I'm thinking of trading up to the Dave once the TT2 is fixed.


Superior. It's basically double the power of the Hugo 2 as well.


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## Reactcore (Apr 4, 2022)

.


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## Reactcore (Apr 4, 2022)

.


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## Reactcore (Apr 4, 2022)

🤔 Weird..
These were 'phone in pocket messages'


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## SteveHulk

If you are ready to drop that kind of money on the stand then I'd save it and spend it instead on the Wave Storm bnc cables to go between the M Scaler and the DAVE. You are likely to get more "bang for your buck" that way and still have change for a few nice dinners 😀


----------



## ufospls2

Was anyone at the Rob Watts seminar at CanJam singapore, who would be willing to share what was said? I guess it may have to do with the rumoured Choral style M-Scaler, but I don't know obviously.

From the Impressions thread

"
warrenpchi said:
Rob Watts’s seminar had some fascinating leaks of future stuff, not even sure I’m allowed to repeat it even though it slipped. "


----------



## Maccaboy10

PhenixS1970 said:


> Thank you very much for the info Paul.  It’s nice to get some options here
> 
> I just puchased the KabelDirekt Pro cable and will be delivered before I pick up DAVE.  Indeed a no brainer $ to give a try.  Been reading up on this very educational thread and my understanding is that all that matters is getting a good fit to ensure 192 but there is no need for bling bling cables soundwise.  DAVE will sort it ou soundwise


I have same setup as you Aries G1 and Dave (on demo), I can’t get any cable to work above 24\96.  The QED optical ref and the stock cables don’t register a signal, the kabeldirekt transfers a signal but produces only white noise unless I stand and hold it in the socket.


----------



## alxw0w (Apr 6, 2022)

Maccaboy10 said:


> I have same setup as you Aries G1 and Dave (on demo), I can’t get any cable to work above 24\96.  The QED optical ref and the stock cables don’t register a signal, the kabeldirekt transfers a signal but produces only white noise unless I stand and hold it in the socket.


Are you sure that optical made that "click" when you were plugging it?
Sometimes toslink cables/socket require extra force to be fully plugged.
At least I had that problem, toslink was not fully plugged and I had problems while playing content above 96kHz

ps. Also when connecting toslink directly to Dave make sure that plug is not hitting Daves aluminium case. Many "audiophile" cables have this thick plug which interacts with Daves case as socket is recessed.


----------



## Maccaboy10

alxw0w said:


> Are you sure that optical made that "click" when you were plugging it?
> Sometimes toslink cables/socket require extra force to be fully plugged.
> At least I had that problem, toslink was not fully plugged and I had problems while playing content above 96kHz
> 
> ps. Also when connecting toslink directly to Dave make sure that plug is not hitting Daves aluminium case. Many "audiophile" cables have this thick plug which interacts with Daves case as socket is recessed.


Thanks, yes I did think i made it click.  The demo unit is back at the dealer and I’ve ordered one, so the wait begins.


----------



## PhenixS1970

Maccaboy10 said:


> I have same setup as you Aries G1 and Dave (on demo), I can’t get any cable to work above 24\96.  The QED optical ref and the stock cables don’t register a signal, the kabeldirekt transfers a signal but produces only white noise unless I stand and hold it in the socket.


At the end I went for a “sys concept” toslink cable and that passes on 192 to DAVE without issues.  The connection also “clicks”.


----------



## Sampajanna

ufospls2 said:


> Was anyone at the Rob Watts seminar at CanJam singapore, who would be willing to share what was said? I guess it may have to do with the rumoured Choral style M-Scaler, but I don't know obviously.
> 
> From the Impressions thread
> 
> ...


It is on Youtube. He spoke about Mojo 2


----------



## Sampajanna

He also talks about the problem with DSD for those naysayers earlier on boasting of how much better their DSD DACs are...


----------



## stemiki

-301 dB for correct depth perception..... Rob you are number one!


----------



## Progisus

Maccaboy10 said:


> Thanks, yes I did think i made it click.  The demo unit is back at the dealer and I’ve ordered one, so the wait begins.


I use the supplied optical cable with my TT2 and 192khz is no problem. A solid push until it clicks is necessary. Maybe a Dave someday.


----------



## Maccaboy10

PhenixS1970 said:


> At the end I went for a “sys concept” toslink cable and that passes on 192 to DAVE without issues.  The connection also “clicks”.


Ok thanks, that was Aries G1 to Dave right?  I’ll try the cables I have with my new Dave when I receive it, if not I’ll look at the ‘sys concept’ can you post a link to it (ideally uk) so I get the right one.


----------



## PhenixS1970

Maccaboy10 said:


> Ok thanks, that was Aries G1 to Dave right?  I’ll try the cables I have with my new Dave when I receive it, if not I’ll look at the ‘sys concept’ can you post a link to it (ideally uk) so I get the right one.


Correct.  To my knowledge you can only order at Sys Concept.
https://www.sysconcept.ca/product_info.php?products_id=364


----------



## Maccaboy10

Progisus said:


> I use the supplied optical cable with my TT2 and 192khz is no problem. A solid push until it clicks is necessary. Maybe a Dave someday.


I’ve had no issues with any optical cable at 192 with my TT2, it’s just with the Dave I’ve been demoing.


----------



## ecwl

Sampajanna said:


> It is on Youtube. He spoke about Mojo 2



The link is for NYC CanJam. I wonder if Rob Watts said more during Singapore CanJam.


----------



## ufospls2

Sampajanna said:


> It is on Youtube. He spoke about Mojo 2



That's CanJam NYC. Just assuming from the post I quoted he mentioned some upcoming products during the same seminar at CanJam Singapore.


----------



## Sampajanna

ufospls2 said:


> That's CanJam NYC. Just assuming from the post I quoted he mentioned some upcoming products during the same seminar at CanJam Singapore.


Oops sorry for the confusion. Since he has a prepared slideshow, I would think the speeches were probably very similar


----------



## Dan Lee

Hello my friends.  I've been considering a Dave for my next purchase, but realized the prices on them have gone a good bit higher than I expected.  I could get a used unit, but was curious if anyone has compared their dave to any other dac that they felt performed close to the Daves capabilities for a better price.  I considered TT2, but keep reading that it still has a noticable veil to compared to dave and that its a bit warmer.  I'm open to suggestions and any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## sm60

stemiki said:


> -301 dB for correct depth perception..... Rob you are number one!


I don’t know what this even means, given the average quiet listening room has noise levels around 30 dB (try monitoring on your iPhone sometimes). I never listen above 85 dB, often less. So, anything above 60 dB of dynamic range is wasted, as far as I am concerned. 300 dB. I think you’re now getting into quantum level effects.….try to work this math out sometimes, remembering that dB is a logarithmic scale.


----------



## GryphonGuy

Dan Lee said:


> Hello my friends.  I've been considering a Dave for my next purchase, but realized the prices on them have gone a good bit higher than I expected.  I could get a used unit, but was curious if anyone has compared their dave to any other dac that they felt performed close to the Daves capabilities for a better price.  I considered TT2, but keep reading that it still has a noticable veil to compared to dave and that its a bit warmer.  I'm open to suggestions and any help would be greatly appreciated.



The same manufacturer would not usually offer a "better" device for a cheaper price. That would simply cannibalise their own sales for less revenue. The only time I can think of a cheaper product being offered that may be slightly better than a current TOTL product in their own lineup is when there is a massive technology change (or similar breakthrough) and they try the device in the mid-range to test the market with a fully developed plan to supersede their TOTL at some point, thus maintaining their product hierarchy.

DAVE is currently, and for the foreseeable future, the most capable DAC from Chord Electronics.


----------



## Triode User

Dan Lee said:


> Hello my friends.  I've been considering a Dave for my next purchase, but realized the prices on them have gone a good bit higher than I expected.  I could get a used unit, but was curious if anyone has compared their dave to any other dac that they felt performed close to the Daves capabilities for a better price.  I considered TT2, but keep reading that it still has a noticable veil to compared to dave and that its a bit warmer.  I'm open to suggestions and any help would be greatly appreciated.


If you only ever heat a TT2 you will be impressed. It is a good dac. But if you get to compare with a Dave you will realise that the TT2 is not as transparent as a Dave by some considerable margin and also the Dave has a much cleaner and more detailed bass. In comparison the TT2 bass is rather wooly and imprecise. 

However the TT2 better ability to drive headphones gives it an advantage in that area but if like me you never use headphones and only a speaker system that headphone advantage with the TT2 is no advantage. In any case the Dave is no slouch with driving almost every headphone.


----------



## Rob Watts

sm60 said:


> I don’t know what this even means, given the average quiet listening room has noise levels around 30 dB (try monitoring on your iPhone sometimes). I never listen above 85 dB, often less. So, anything above 60 dB of dynamic range is wasted, as far as I am concerned. 300 dB. I think you’re now getting into quantum level effects.….try to work this math out sometimes, remembering that dB is a logarithmic scale.



-301 dB isn't into quantum level effects - so for driving say a Stealth at decent volume levels then -301db is about 600 electrons - which is still a scary small number. If you had told me that needing this level of accuracy was subjectively important 10 years ago I would have said you were deluded or insane. No way the ear/brain can be that sensitive. But I can only report what I hear - and I have done a huge number of listening tests (some blind) where at this level one can perceive it. The odd thing is that these things are easy to hear - just look at the previous post about the transparency of Dave against TT2 for example - but the technical difference between Dave and TT2 for small signal accuracy is very small.


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## SteveHulk (Apr 9, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> -301 dB isn't into quantum level effects - so for driving say a Stealth at decent volume levels then -301db is about 600 electrons - which is still a scary small number. If you had told me that needing this level of accuracy was subjectively important 10 years ago I would have said you were deluded or insane. No way the ear/brain can be that sensitive. But I can only report what I hear - and I have done a huge number of listening tests (some blind) where at this level one can perceive it. The odd thing is that these things are easy to hear - just look at the previous post about the transparency of Dave against TT2 for example - but the technical difference between Dave and TT2 for small signal accuracy is very small.


We must always be wary of attractively simplistic theories.

The data has primacy. When there is a discrepancy between theory and data we do not throw away the data, we throw away the theory.

Enough people in reasonably well-constructed test scenarios can hear these differences and we have to accept that data exists that we cannot ignore.

For examples, riddle me these:

Why is it that dome breakup in tweeters above eg 30kHz matters when it seems we cannot hear above less than 20kHz? But it does.

Why would we never dream of using unequal cable lengths left and right in a high-end system? But we wouldn't.

Why are all high-end amplifiers that do imaging and sound staging properly constructed with absolute left-right symmetry? But they are.

How can we hear the difference between a Steinway and a Bösendorfer on a transistor radio with a 2" speaker in mono? But we can.

How is it that a pure stereo system of only a left and a right speaker can create a soundscape that not only reaches past the speakers left and right but also up and down, above the head of and even behind the listener. But it can. My main system does this, I have heard it myself. 

And there's much more of the same.

Data points that cannot and must not be ignored.

The "ear/brain" is performing analysis that goes far beyond a basic analogy of "microphone/tape recorder" on which a lot of simplistic arguments seem to be based.

The ear/brain when listening is working not just in the here and now but is working with the totality of the sound being heard - past, present, and future expectation - fitting the sound to a vast learned experience of sound starting when laid in a cot as a baby.

There was a time in our evolutionary history that picking out tiny delicate sounds in an ambient was a matter of life or death. Our ear/brain system evolved to meet this challenge. 

We still have this power to analyse sound in great detail.


----------



## srkbear

Dan Lee said:


> Hello my friends.  I've been considering a Dave for my next purchase, but realized the prices on them have gone a good bit higher than I expected.  I could get a used unit, but was curious if anyone has compared their dave to any other dac that they felt performed close to the Daves capabilities for a better price.  I considered TT2, but keep reading that it still has a noticable veil to compared to dave and that its a bit warmer.  I'm open to suggestions and any help would be greatly appreciated.


Please, no offense to the existing DAVE owners (as I have been one myself)—but I can quote you several DACs (if we’re just discussing DACs) that outperform the DAVE in nearly every aspect—just about every delta sigma DAC utilizing all 8 channels of the ES9038pro chipset that has emerged in the last year is proving to be equal if not superior to the DAVE, a stalwart option that has long rested on its laurels and is a bit overdue in justifying its breathtaking price.

Until the era of the “modern” DAC (essentially the last year and a half), the prevailing delta sigma units were not up to par, didn’t measure well, and the prevailing boutique options (such as the DAVE and to a lesser extent the Schitt Yggdrasil and a few R2R ladder behemoths) were innovative enough to overcome such limitations and justify their exorbitant expense. But in the past year, several emerging manufacturers have perfected the implementation of Sabre’s revolutionary chip—and by engaging all eight channels and pairing it with the right transformers, they’ve overcome the ES “hump”. And in doing so, they have achieved a level of accuracy, signal to noise ratio, linearity and circumvention of the quantization noise inherent to the DA process that surpasses the limits of human hearing. The Gustard x26pro, and more recently the x18, are two such examples that offer record-breaking performance, far superior to the DAVE (again, only as a DAC), at a fraction of the cost ($1,499 and $749, respectively). 

If you’re not seeking an all-in-one option (which the DAVE offers exceptionally well), a good formula to follow to attain the highest quality-to cash ratio these days is to invest your hard-earned money in the following descending order of priority: headphones—>amp—>DAC—>cables. Pick a DAC that offers the most faithful reproduction of the original masters possible, and let your amp and speakers handle post-DA targets such as soundstage, imaging, warmth, and slam. Your wallet and ears will thank you. 

And if you already have the DAVE, I know you love it and I totally get why—you’re fortunate to be able to afford it! I just think it’s only fair for prospective buyers to be aware of newer alternatives. Peace!


----------



## Triode User

srkbear said:


> Please, no offense to the existing DAVE owners (as I have been one myself)—but I can quote you several DACs (if we’re just discussing DACs) that outperform the DAVE in nearly every aspect—just about every delta sigma DAC utilizing all 8 channels of the ES9038pro chipset that has emerged in the last year is proving to be equal if not superior to the DAVE, a stalwart option that has long rested on its laurels and is a bit overdue in justifying its breathtaking price.
> 
> Until the era of the “modern” DAC (essentially the last year and a half), the prevailing delta sigma units were not up to par, didn’t measure well, and the prevailing boutique options (such as the DAVE and to a lesser extent the Schitt Yggdrasil and a few R2R ladder behemoths) were innovative enough to overcome such limitations and justify their exorbitant expense. But in the past year, several emerging manufacturers have perfected the implementation of Sabre’s revolutionary chip—and by engaging all eight channels and pairing it with the right transformers, they’ve overcome the ES “hump”. And in doing so, they have achieved a level of accuracy, signal to noise ratio, linearity and circumvention of the quantization noise inherent to the DA process that surpasses the limits of human hearing. The Gustard x26pro, and more recently the x18, are two such examples that offer record-breaking performance, far superior to the DAVE (again, only as a DAC), at a fraction of the cost ($1,499 and $749, respectively).
> 
> ...


Hmmn, well, it really depends on what you mean by ‘outperform’. Certainly just doing an ASR type of comparison of figures is not a very reliable guage. I have heard some of those DACs to which you refer and whilst they might represent an interesting proposition at their price level they definitely do not sound as good as the Dave.

And if you are so sure of what you are saying why have you not sold your Dave and got one of the other supposedly outperforming DCAs? Why not quickly sell your Dave now before the veil is lifted from peoples eyes by your enlightening view on the new hierarchy of DACs and your Dave becomes worthless and unsellable?

I know why I still have my Dave and that is because the way it sounds still comprehensively outperforms all other DACs I have heard.

PS, no offence taken or intended.


----------



## iDesign

Lets not turn this into the Utopia thread.


----------



## adrianm

srkbear said:


> And in doing so, they have achieved a level of accuracy, signal to noise ratio, linearity and circumvention of the quantization noise inherent to the DA process that surpasses the limits of human hearing. The Gustard x26pro, and more recently the x18, are two such examples that offer record-breaking performance, far superior to the DAVE (again, only as a DAC), at a fraction of the cost ($1,499 and $749, respectively).


People have been making these claims since Dave came out, there's really nothing revolutionary that has happened since. It's the ASR punchline to keep selling Topping's and etc.


----------



## griff500

srkbear said:


> Please, no offense to the existing DAVE owners (as I have been one myself)—but I can quote you several DACs (if we’re just discussing DACs) that outperform the DAVE in nearly every aspect


If your signature is up to date then you apparently used to own a DAVE but you now use a Topping D90. Seriously?


----------



## Ards

Triode User said:


> Certainly just doing an ASR type of comparison of figures is not a very reliable guage


Agreed.  I really hope we can keep that kind of myopic objectivism ideology we see over at ASR out of Head-Fi, and indeed any other audio forum.  Anybody who is 100% certain of their position is holding a faith based position, not a rational one.  And there are an awful lot of the '100% certain' types on ASR...


----------



## srkbear

Triode User said:


> Hmmn, well, it really depends on what you mean by ‘outperform’. Certainly just doing an ASR type of comparison of figures is not a very reliable guage. I have heard some of those DACs to which you refer and whilst they might represent an interesting proposition at their price level they definitely do not sound as good as the Dave.
> 
> And if you are so sure of what you are saying why have you not sold your Dave and got one of the other supposedly outperforming DCAs? Why not quickly sell your Dave now before the veil is lifted from peoples eyes by your enlightening view on the new hierarchy of DACs and your Dave becomes worthless and unsellable?
> 
> ...


Thank you for the feedback, I have indeed sold my DAVE in favor of separate components, and a 4.4mm balanced headphone output. The list is in my signature.


----------



## srkbear

adrianm said:


> People have been making these claims since Dave came out, there's really nothing revolutionary that has happened since. It's the ASR punchline to keep selling Topping's and etc.


Well that’s pretty condescending I’d say. I know I asked for it, but I am actually capable of making my own independent ideas, and I’ve owned many DACs, including the DAVE. My purpose is to combat pervasive pressures to spend excesses of money in lieu of less costly but equally fine alternatives, but since this is the Chord DAVE forum, I’ll take it elsewhere. Peace…


----------



## srkbear

Ards said:


> Agreed.  I really hope we can keep that kind of myopic objectivism ideology we see over at ASR out of Head-Fi, and indeed any other audio forum.  Anybody who is 100% certain of their position is holding a faith based position, not a rational one.  And there are an awful lot of the '100% certain' types on ASR...


Where did I mention ASR? Your statement seems more aligned with faith-based positions and absolute certainty, in lieu of being open to other ideas. But I accept that my choice of forums was in retrospect misguided, and out of respect for current DAVE owners I apologize. Hopefully we can consider more mutually-respectful conversations elsewhere.


----------



## SteveHulk

srkbear said:


> Thank you for the feedback, I have indeed sold my DAVE in favor of separate components, and a 4.4mm balanced headphone output. The list is in my signature.


The DAVE is a separate component... 🤔


----------



## srkbear

SteveHulk said:


> The DAVE is a separate component... 🤔


The DAVE is an integrated DAC/preamp/amplifier, and I bought a pure DAC coupled with a separate amplifier. I really want to let this go—I never should have posted this here.


----------



## srkbear

iDesign said:


> Lets not turn this into the Utopia thread.


Yesterday was not my best in terms of choices. I’m taking a break to reboot, examine my part in things and consider a different approach for the future.


----------



## adrianm

srkbear said:


> Well that’s pretty condescending I’d say. I know I asked for it, but I am actually capable of making my own independent ideas, and I’ve owned many DACs, including the DAVE. My purpose is to combat pervasive pressures to spend excesses of money in lieu of less costly but equally fine alternatives, but since this is the Chord DAVE forum, I’ll take it elsewhere. Peace…


I share the same opinion on the M-scaler FWIW, which is why I recently sold it. I also have no problem selling Dave and getting some money back, but I don't have the time or the energy to keep chasing every new flavor of the month component.
   If the Gustard, or whatever else will blow Dave away (even at a higher price) , I'm sure it will become a staple, just like like Dave has, or the Mojo at its price point. Until then, it's just noise. I lost so much time on this forums already, that I could've easily gotten a Rossini and called it a day if I used that time to work.
    I also have no problem with off the shelf chips if they do actually get to be as good, but I'm extremely skeptical about this. 
    The Weiss Dac 501 looks to be well received, so who knows, that time might be coming, but there is still a significant delta in price between it and the Gustards.


----------



## griff500

srkbear said:


> Where did I mention ASR? Your statement seems more aligned with faith-based positions and absolute certainty, in lieu of being open to other ideas. But I accept that my choice of forums was in retrospect misguided, and out of respect for current DAVE owners I apologize. Hopefully we can consider more mutually-respectful conversations elsewhere.


I do not think you need to apologise for expressing an opinion.  It's probably not an opinion that will be met with much interest in a DAVE thread though and whenever I see someone with a Topping I immediately seem to assume that they have spent a bit of time on ASR... 

I think it's hard to beat the DAVE for what it is and I wouldn't want a collection of boxes to try and achieve the same thing.


----------



## SteveHulk

srkbear said:


> The DAVE is an integrated DAC/preamp/amplifier, and I bought a pure DAC coupled with a separate amplifier. I really want to let this go—I never should have posted this here.


My apologies. I only ever use the DAVE in its "DAC mode" so I think of it as a pure DAC. In my defence, your original posting that started this small flame war 🙂 did seem aimed specifically at the DAVE's performance as a DAC rather than as an integrated component.


----------



## srkbear

SteveHulk said:


> My apologies. I only ever use the DAVE in its "DAC mode" so I think of it as a pure DAC. In my defence, your original posting that started this small flame war 🙂 did seem aimed specifically at the DAVE's performance as a DAC rather than as an integrated component.





griff500 said:


> I do not think you need to apologise for expressing an opinion.  It's probably not an opinion that will be met with much interest in a DAVE thread though and whenever I see someone with a Topping I immediately seem to assume that they have spent a bit of time on ASR...
> 
> I think it's hard to beat the DAVE for what it is and I wouldn't want a collection of boxes to try and achieve the same thing.


I’m learning a lot from my original posting :/


----------



## Clive101

Hello All...
I need some help please.
I wish to connect my DAVE via the RCA output into the balanced input on a GSX Mk2 (to use the full power of the GSX 6 watts)....
Question can I use any RCA to XLR adaptor or cable will it be terminated correctly or cause any damage ?
Will this cable work ? https://www.scvdistribution.co.uk/product/benchmark-xlrm-to-rca-pin-3-floating-cable-each
Thank you in advance.

PS I am all ready using the XLR output on the DAVE


----------



## Slim1970

Clive101 said:


> Hello All...
> I need some help please.
> I wish to connect my DAVE via the RCA output into the balanced input on a GSX Mk2 (to use the full power of the GSX 6 watts)....
> Question can I use any RCA to XLR adaptor or cable will it be terminated correctly or cause any damage ?
> ...


Something like this is a lot safer:

https://www.moon-audio.com/moon-audio-rca-xlr-adapters.html

You need the RCA to male XLR adapters to connect to back of the GS-X MK2. Great amp by the way!


----------



## adrianm

srkbear said:


> I’m learning a lot from my original posting :/


I've been burned at the stake more than once for saying the M-scaler is ..problematic (had it and sold it), streamers are not worth it (have one, selling it, getting another one), cables don't matter, later that some cables do matter, power quality matters, you just can't win on the internet 
   I know it comes from good intentions and trying to save people money so I apologize if  I came across as aggressive, but it's a lost cause, trust me. People like what they like.
     I still find Dave...special. Add in HQplayer or PGGB (I imagine, I haven't gotten around to it) and solo Dave, or even mDave sounds bad in comparison. I doubt even the Weiss 501 can beat that combo, and there's no such option there. 
   Upscaling makes a huge difference in my experience, but I just can't wait to see what the new Choral M-scaler will do to warrant it's huge price tag.
      In a way, inadvertently, Rob has democratized TOTL sound quality with his long tap filter approach, because it can be achieved via software, not just specialized hardware like DCS and others with their external clocks. And his old arguments that you can't do it on 4 cores are no longer valid. My Cpu has 20 cores, and my gpu 10k+ cuda cores. The hardware is there, the software needs to catch up.
     Call this me eating humble pie over HQplayer but after setting it up correctly, I much prefer it to the M-scaler. Granted, the filters I like might be WTA rip-offs, but c'est la vie.
    So great sound is getting cheaper and cheaper, which is great, but there are still improvements to be had and  someone has to keep paying to  push the boundaries. And some  have to keep feeding the snakes  
     Either way, can't wait for the next best thing, be it from Chord, or someone else.


----------



## Progisus

You know... I pushed the HQPlayer a couple years ago and sold my first mscaler. I enjoyed HQPlayer (still do to play PGGB files) but I got another mscaler as it is just so darn practical. Turn it on and forget it, period. No loss of handshake, computer freezes and the WTA filter which to this date is the benchmark. If DSD is your thing then HQPlayer will be as well but DSD is a bad word in the Chord world. Up to and including the TT2 it gets decimated and treated like pcm. Not  sure about the  Dave. One caveat, bnc cables such as Wave from @Triode User are a must or some other form of rfi mitigation.


----------



## ubs28 (Apr 11, 2022)

I thought the Mscaler sounded bad. I prefer the Chord Dave standalone. There was some brightness with the Mscaler that annoyed me. Or perhaps my unit was defective?

Maybe the Mscaler + Dave is better on spec sheets, but I didn’t like it to be honest.

I played with some software upscalers, but it is just too much tweaking rather than listening. I still don’t know which settings are “reference” so to say.


----------



## adrianm

Progisus said:


> You know... I pushed the HQPlayer a couple years ago and sold my first mscaler. I enjoyed HQPlayer (still do to play PGGB files) but I got another mscaler as it is just so darn practical. Turn it on and forget it, period. No loss of handshake, computer freezes and the WTA filter which to this date is the benchmark. If DSD is your thing then HQPlayer will be as well but DSD is a bad word in the Chord world. Up to and including the TT2 it gets decimated and treated like pcm. Not  sure about the  Dave. One caveat, bnc cables such as Wave from @Triode User are a must or some other form of rfi mitigation.


I've never tried DSD, but not a fan of overly smooth sound signatures. For me HQP makes sense since I use headphones while using my gaming pc. No issues with it besides Chord's USB drivers, hopefully the SRC-DX will bypass those.
    I'm also not ruling out getting the Choral M-scaler provided it actually does turn out to be considerably better, but I'm skeptical of the value proposition. For the price I'm expecting, I'd rather get a Weiss and play around with both. I'd also not tolerate the same RF bomb issue in need of fixing.


----------



## srkbear

adrianm said:


> I've been burned at the stake more than once for saying the M-scaler is ..problematic (had it and sold it), streamers are not worth it (have one, selling it, getting another one), cables don't matter, later that some cables do matter, power quality matters, you just can't win on the internet
> I know it comes from good intentions and trying to save people money so I apologize if  I came across as aggressive, but it's a lost cause, trust me. People like what they like.
> I still find Dave...special. Add in HQplayer or PGGB (I imagine, I haven't gotten around to it) and solo Dave, or even mDave sounds bad in comparison. I doubt even the Weiss 501 can beat that combo, and there's no such option there.
> Upscaling makes a huge difference in my experience, but I just can't wait to see what the new Choral M-scaler will do to warrant it's huge price tag.
> ...


Thank you for saying this. I do have good intentions and I am truly here to have fun sharing and learning my hobby with others—but I have to be more mindful of my audience when posting. Lots of folks are understandably proud of their investment in the DAVE, and I wouldn’t like being told that I had an obsolete setup after spending $15,000+ on my own gear either.

In my case with my DAVE, I got frustrated with not being able to take advantage of balanced outputs after buying Focal Utopias, and I also wanted an amp with an analogue bass boost. So I decided to sell my Dave and start over, and my first investment was in the iFi Pro iCAN Signature. With its tube stage, xBass and 3D Hologram functions, along with the DSPs I had available through Roon, I felt that I has covered all the soundstage, warmth, and tonality enhancements I needed, so I went in search of a DAC that would offer the most faithful reproduction of the original master possible—and that’s where measurements became a concern for me. So I went with the Topping D90se, and I’ve been very happy. 

I don’t think measurements tell the whole story, and they’re of no use with preamps, amps or headphones. I only turn to them for the degree to which the DAC element of the signal chain performs its job—to convert a bunch of ones and zeros into a faithful reproduction of the original master, with the least quantization error, noise and distortion. The DAVE is far from being a “pure” DAC; it’s a preamp, amplifier, upscaler, DSP—it does it all, and exceptionally. There’s really nothing else like it, and I used it proudly for years. I was really just ready for something different, not better—and if I had chosen to post here at all, I should have made that clear. 

Live and learn. Thanks for offering me a chance to correct my mistakes. I’ll get out of the way of this forum now and seek other venues on topic


----------



## adrianm

ubs28 said:


> I thought the Mscaler sounded bad. I prefer the Chord Dave standalone. There was some brightness with the Mscaler that annoyed me. Or perhaps my unit was defective?
> 
> Maybe the Mscaler + Dave is better on spec sheets, but I didn’t like it to be honest.
> 
> I played with some software upscalers, but it is just too much tweaking rather than listening. I still don’t know which settings are “reference” so to say.


I've struggled with the "reference" part myself and was a bit overwhelmed at first. I think there are pros and cons for different filter types. I'm sticking with this for now :




The brightness is why I've always hated the M-scaler. Plus the various fixes needed.


----------



## jlbrach (Apr 11, 2022)

griff500 said:


> If your signature is up to date then you apparently used to own a DAVE but you now use a Topping D90. Seriously?


unless he needed to raise cash which  I understand, kind of silly..it seems recently we have had several people like this who monopolize the discussion making all sorts of attacks and repeating them over and over...I really hope this isnt a new trend


----------



## Slim1970

jlbrach said:


> unless he needed to raise cash which  I understand, kind of silly..it seems recently we have had several people like this who monopolize the discussion making all sorts of attacks and repeating them over and over...I really hope this isnt a new trend


Agreed, comparing the Dave to a Toppings or Gustard DAC seems counterintuitive to me 🤷‍♂️. There's no convincing anyone in this thread that they are better DAC's


----------



## sm60

Rob Watts said:


> -301 dB isn't into quantum level effects - so for driving say a Stealth at decent volume levels then -301db is about 600 electrons - which is still a scary small number. If you had told me that needing this level of accuracy was subjectively important 10 years ago I would have said you were deluded or insane. No way the ear/brain can be that sensitive. But I can only report what I hear - and I have done a huge number of listening tests (some blind) where at this level one can perceive it. The odd thing is that these things are easy to hear - just look at the previous post about the transparency of Dave against TT2 for example - but the technical difference between Dave and TT2 for small signal accuracy is very small.


Rob,

With the greatest of respect, I’m not questioning your subjective assessment of what you heard, even under double blind conditions. I’m just pointing out that even the world’s most expensive headphones or speakers have such poor resolution compared to even the lousiest of DACs, let alone truly good ones like the Dave, that I remain skeptical of what your explanation is for the perceived differences.

For example, here are distortion measurements of the acclaimed JBL M2 pro loudspeaker, a model that sells for around 20 grand and is among the best measuring speakers in the world. Notice the relatively poor distortion performance of this loudspeaker. Note most other loudspeakers are much much worse than this one, which is why audio mags like Stereophile never show distortion measurements of loudspeakers because they are so terrible.


----------



## Sampajanna

jlbrach said:


> unless he needed to raise cash which  I understand, kind of silly..it seems recently we have had several people like this who monopolize the discussion making all sorts of attacks and repeating them over and over...I really hope this isnt a new trend


I agree. This was one of my favorite forums. Recently it has attracted a bunch of non Dave owners who come here to troll. I have tried those Chinese dacs extensively. They are all over here (I live in TW). They are nowhere near the Dave, IMO. The measurement crowd is also not my cup of tea. Adding some objectivity and measurements to the discussion is helpful, but just about any thread you click on over at ASR is full of negativity, spittle-flying arguments and a general sense of unhappiness. This is a subjective hobby, and i do it for fun!


----------



## srkbear

jlbrach said:


> unless he needed to raise cash which  I understand, kind of silly..it seems recently we have had several people like this who monopolize the discussion making all sorts of attacks and repeating them over and over...I really hope this isnt a new trend


I already apologized for posting this here innumerable times. I had reasons at the time but didn’t communicate them well, at all. 

Please let it go. I’m here to share this hobby with others with mutual respect and have no other agenda. Thanks.


----------



## srkbear

Sampajanna said:


> I agree. This was one of my favorite forums. Recently it has attracted a bunch of non Dave owners who come here to troll. I have tried those Chinese dacs extensively. They are all over here (I live in TW). They are nowhere near the Dave, IMO. The measurement crowd is also not my cup of tea. Adding some objectivity and measurements to the discussion is helpful, but just about any thread you click on over at ASR is full of negativity, spittle-flying arguments and a general sense of unhappiness. This is a subjective hobby, and i do it for fun!


I did not come here to troll. I had reasons at the time but failed to express them respectfully or effectively. I’ve been on this forum for quite awhile and have never been accused of trolling before—if you’ve ever opened your mouth and regretted it later, please don’t make up stuff about me that I haven’t earned. The response to my post, however deserving on my part, has been over the top—I am not responsible for dismantling the joy on this thread. Allow me to reboot, ok?


----------



## Sampajanna

srkbear said:


> I did not come here to troll. I had reasons at the time but failed to express them respectfully or effectively. I’ve been on this forum for quite awhile and have never been accused of trolling before—if you’ve ever opened your mouth and regretted it later, please don’t make up stuff about me that I haven’t earned. The response to my post, however deserving on my part, has been over the top—I am not responsible for dismantling the joy on this thread. Allow me to reboot, ok?


All good. I was commenting to the trend, of which you are just a part. Thank you for apologizing and for taking the time to clarify your view. I appreciate it.


----------



## srkbear

Slim1970 said:


> Agreed, comparing the Dave to a Toppings or Gustard DAC seems counterintuitive to me 🤷‍♂️. There's no convincing anyone in this thread that they are better DAC's


If you reread the post I responded to, it was in response to someone seeking a new DAC. It was not out of nowhere to condemn everyone who already has a DAVE. I made a mistake in my choice of forums, and that’s the extent of my mistakes. There are perfectly valid arguments that involve comparing the qualities of the Chord DAC to other less expensive DACs—and I would think such discussions would be interesting to the audiophile. But I’ve learned the hard way to choose the forums for such discussion wisely.


----------



## Sampajanna

srkbear said:


> If you reread the post I responded to, it was in response to someone seeking a new DAC. It was not out of nowhere to condemn everyone who already has a DAVE. I made a mistake in my choice of forums, and that’s the extent of my mistakes. There are perfectly valid arguments that involve comparing the qualities of the Chord DAC to other less expensive DACs—and I would think such discussions would be interesting to the audiophile. But I’ve learned the hard way to choose the forums for such discussion wisely.


Often it is not the argument itself, but the tone it is expressed in which causes issues. I don’t mind measurements and sometimes enjoy reading the science as part of an overall discussion. My personal distaste with your and others’ posts is the way they are expressed. As I said, my impression after a few dozen visits to ASR is that there are a lot of unhappy folks there, ranting and raving a lot. Not my vibe. Your post was dismissive and condescending, which you admitted in your apology. But you continue to stir things up, i.e. troll. And most trolls don’t feel like they are trolling. To me trolling is showing up on a Dave thread to tell everyone the Dave is a rip off because Topping measures better. There is indeed a place for listening impressions of a less expensive dac vs the Dave, why one preferred another sound and moved on. Lots of us get antsy and move on to different sound signatures. But saying these cheap dacs are better and then throwing measurements as the reason that they are “pure” and closer to the “master,” whatever “closer” means, is an argument better suited to ASR. You will be happier there, methinks…


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## ra990

There's a lot to audio equipment that can't be measured yet because it's not really understood. 

The ASR crowd firmly believes that a limited set of measurements, including SINAD, THD, IMD, and Frequency Response tell you everything you need to know. In my opinion, those measurements tell only a part of the story. The part that we understand and are able to measure. You can't measure things like soundstage, imaging, texture, for example - it's not really understood yet how to do that accurately. Maybe one day we'll figure out how to measure those...

Also, the Audio Precision equipment is amazing, but in Rob's testing, he's determined that the human brain is far more sensitive than current measuring equipment, especially when it comes to things like perception of soundstage and imaging...that rings true to me. The human brain is very complex maybe one day we'll understand all this better. I wish they were just a bit more open-minded about this, but that closed-minded and dismissive mentality comes down from the top over at ASR.

I say all this as a member and frequent visitor to ASR. I read the measurements for what they are and I know, from personal experience, that they don't tell the whole story.


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## Sampajanna




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## Ciggavelli

My boss at work said today that if you can’t measure it, it doesn’t matter because you won’t be able to understand it.

I threw my hands up in the air. This measurement obsession is not just an audiophile thing, it’s in many parts of life. The thing is, you can’t measure everything, and we don’t even always know if a measure is a valid representation of the construct.

It’s the whole quant vs qual divide in the social sciences. People like quantitative measurements because they’re easy. 10 is better than 5.  But there is so much more than that. Relying only on quantitative measurements is lazy. Like good research you should take a mixed methods approach. Same with audio


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## sm60 (Apr 11, 2022)

ra990 said:


> There's a lot to audio equipment that can't be measured yet because it's not really understood.
> 
> The ASR crowd firmly believes that a limited set of measurements, including SINAD, THD, IMD, and Frequency Response tell you everything you need to know. In my opinion, those measurements tell only a part of the story. The part that we understand and are able to measure. You can't measure things like soundstage, imaging, texture, for example - it's not really understood yet how to do that accurately. Maybe one day we'll figure out how to measure those...
> 
> ...


I agree with this sentiment, although my take is a bit different. I think we like distortions as long as they are musically harmonious. Consider a concert hall like Davies Symphony Hall in San Francisco to which I’ve been to a lot. To me the concert hall is the gold standard for sound. Hearing a world class orchestra with a huge chorus playing a majestic piece is simply a sublime experience that no audio system, even one worth millions of dollars can compare with. For example, one of my favorite large scale choral pieces is Carmina Burana by Orff. Set to medieval chants, at time bawdy and lustful, this 20th century piece is in turns both great classical and rap music all rolled into one. It requires a huge chorus of hundreds of singers and a massive orchestra of a few hundred instruments.

Each time I hear the Carmina Burana in Davies Hall, I can’t bear to listen to my stereo for a week. To hear the huge climaxes and the beautiful choral singing rendered without a hint of strain is truly amazing. Yet why do I like the concert hall sound so much? It’s not necessarily the most “accurate”. Concert halls are designed to maximize ambient sounds and sound pleasing to the ear. The reverberation is really distortion, yet highly pleasing to the ear.

My most amazing buy this year is a massive 100 pound single triode 300B tube amplifier that produces a mealy 20 watts in class A with zero feedback.  I bought it as a laugh to see why the SET crowd is so crazy. Cost me 2 grand used including the tubes. It’s made by JJ and looks beautiful. Once I plugged it in and heard my Quad electrostatics through it, I understood why the SET crowd goes ga ga over these things. They sound magically pure. But they are not accurate. I’m sure the unit I have has fairly high second harmonic distortion. But the ear doesn’t care. It loves second harmonic distortion, just like everyone loves to sing in the bathroom. It flatters your voice.

I like attending concerts in Davies Symphony Hall or listening to this SET amplifier for the same reason. They get the right sorts of distortions to the sound that make it musically pleasing. At least that’s my explanation.


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## iDesign (Apr 12, 2022)

He is tossing himself and never owned the DAVE.


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## jlbrach

I have been saying for some time that many of the most aggressive people on the forum have never heard the products they aggressively opine about ...I agree


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## ubs28 (Apr 12, 2022)

nvm


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## audio_1 (Apr 12, 2022)

adrianm said:


> I've never tried DSD, but not a fan of overly smooth sound signatures. For me HQP makes sense since I use headphones while using my gaming pc. No issues with it besides Chord's USB drivers, hopefully the SRC-DX will bypass those.
> I'm also not ruling out getting the Choral M-scaler provided it actually does turn out to be considerably better, but I'm skeptical of the value proposition. For the price I'm expecting, I'd rather get a Weiss and play around with both. I'd also not tolerate the same RF bomb issue in need of fixing.


Get the M-scaler and Opto-Dx with 3m optical cables instead of the SRC-DX. Separate the Dave and the M-scaler by a few metres, Separate power lines for the Dave and the M-scaler and digital source components. You will be blown away by how the M-scaler sounds. No RF issues what so ever. Alternatively wait for the Choral M-scaler.


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## adrianm

audio_1 said:


> Get the M-scaler and Opto-Dx with 3m optical cables instead of the SRC-DX. Separate the Dave and the M-scaler by a few metres, Separate power lines for the Dave and the M-scaler and digital source components. You will be blown away by how the M-scaler sounds. No RF issues what so ever. Alternatively wait for the Choral M-scaler.


I'm aware of the impact RF makes. I've had it for a year and half on a battery and using an optical connection. I absolutely hate it with a passion  Even so, Hqplayer blows it away. . I've tried every optimization for Dave discussed here, but I've always said I'll sell Dave before i get to the Opto-dx. 
   As for the new M-scaler, I'm  done drinking Chord's Kool aid and fixing their poor design choices. Either it will be good out of the box, or there's plenty of stuff out there that sounds just as good or better, in a more convenient form.
   If I want the M-scaler sound, there's now the Sync-Li filter which is indistinguishable from the M-scaler, at least to me. I've tried to A/B them for a week and couldn't reliably tell them apart. If I want something better, there's the Sync-L (same but 2 mil taps), if I want something different, there's plenty of options. Once you see how the sausage is made to a certain degree, it gets hard to justify overpaying for "different flavors" in pretty boxes (actually I am a sucker for a pretty box, but they're not that pretty). Especially with no software upgrade path.  
   This doesn't mean I'm selling my Dave for a Topping, I don't mind paying  more than Dave if it's actually  better. What I do mind is paying for ugly fixes to problems that shouldn't exist. Dave is great on its own.            Adding the M-scaler is a mixed bag, and now obsolete, imo. To quote another member, "people can tell me it's better until the cows come home".


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## Rob Watts

sm60 said:


> Rob,
> 
> With the greatest of respect, I’m not questioning your subjective assessment of what you heard, even under double blind conditions. I’m just pointing out that even the world’s most expensive headphones or speakers have such poor resolution compared to even the lousiest of DACs, let alone truly good ones like the Dave, that I remain skeptical of what your explanation is for the perceived differences.
> 
> For example, here are distortion measurements of the acclaimed JBL M2 pro loudspeaker, a model that sells for around 20 grand and is among the best measuring speakers in the world. Notice the relatively poor distortion performance of this loudspeaker. Note most other loudspeakers are much much worse than this one, which is why audio mags like Stereophile never show distortion measurements of loudspeakers because they are so terrible.



Actually I agree; the idea that we need accuracy at -301dB is plainly nuts, and makes no objective sense. But I am only interested in improving sound quality, and the evidence I have based on what must be now hundreds of listening tests is that it's essential to perfectly preserve small signals - any distortion, however small, has audible consequences on depth perception. And I follow the evidence, not what my brain tells me as being sensible or not.

As to distortion of transducers, then the dreadful figures you have plotted is small fry compared to cochlea (the inner ear) distortion. That's been measured at around 4% THD, and the shocking thing is that number is SPL invariant - it doesn't change much with volume as the cochlea has an automatic gain function (AGC) to prevent loud noises damaging the ear. The brain has adaptive coping mechanisms to deal with simple harmonic distortion - otherwise we could not have the ability to separate individual sounds out into separate entities.

But of course there are loudspeakers and headphones capable of well below 0.1% distortion - electrostatics, and the DCA Stealth gives very low levels of distortion - 0.03% at 94dB SPL. Microphone distortion too can be low - my mics are 1% - but that's at 140dB SPL! At 90 dB it will be negligible. 

Having said that the brain can cope with simple harmonic distortion does not mean that transducer distortion is not important. Indeed we have seen over the last decade huge improvements in distortion characteristics of headphones - particularly with planer HPs - and distortion, particularly low frequency distortion does correlate with good SQ performance. I always get worried when a headphone has more than 0.1% distortion at low frequencies. But the brain does have mechanisms to deal with simple distortion; but it can't deal with small signal distortions, nor noise floor modulation, anharmonic distortions or transient timing distortions - these are unnatural distortions, and severely interfere with the brain's ability to create the illusion of sound. And digital is full of these problems.    

Happy listening Rob.

PS. In my own defence of insisting that digital modules accurately reproduce -301 dB and have zero noise floor modulation - science is ignorant on how the brain separates individual sounds out and assign placement data to these sounds to create the extraordinary illusion of sound that we perceive. It's likely that correlation functions play a part in this; and correlation can resolve an infinitely small signal in noise with an infinite amount of time. So dismissing my listening test evidence without doing your own listening tests is not objective, rational or scientific. But you are right to be sceptical; Carl Sagan once said “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” - I just wish people would do their own listening tests and come up with their own evidence before dismissing things out of hand.


----------



## SteveHulk

Rob Watts said:


> Actually I agree; the idea that we need accuracy at -301dB is plainly nuts, and makes no objective sense. But I am only interested in improving sound quality, and the evidence I have based on what must be now hundreds of listening tests is that it's essential to perfectly preserve small signals - any distortion, however small, has audible consequences on depth perception. And I follow the evidence, not what my brain tells me as being sensible or not.
> 
> As to distortion of transducers, then the dreadful figures you have plotted is small fry compared to cochlea (the inner ear) distortion. That's been measured at around 4% THD, and the shocking thing is that number is SPL invariant - it doesn't change much with volume as the cochlea has an automatic gain function (AGC) to prevent loud noises damaging the ear. The brain has adaptive coping mechanisms to deal with simple harmonic distortion - otherwise we could not have the ability to separate individual sounds out into separate entities.
> 
> ...


I think there is a very strong relationship between your "transient timing" and phase fidelity if indeed they are not the same thing.

To represent a stage stage faithfully tiny sounds must not only be reproduced but also kept in the proper phase relationship to each other.

I think the ear/brain is very good indeed at detecting these sounds and their phase relationships which is why we can interpret sound and erect a soundscape accordlingly. 

This would explain, for instance, why the best audio is perfectly symmetric left right in its physical construction even though basic arguments might suggest that this would have essentially no effect on the listening experience.

It would also explain why, when listening to a piano concerto that has been poorly miked and crudely remixed, the orchestra can sound reasonably laid out while at the same time the listener feels like they have their head inside the piano.


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## AndrewOld

Rob Watts said:


> But the brain does have mechanisms to deal with simple distortion; but it can't deal with small signal distortions, nor noise floor modulation, anharmonic distortions or transient timing distortions - these are unnatural distortions, and severely interfere with the brain's ability to create the illusion of sound. And digital is full of these problems.


While what you say about DACs is verifiable through measurement or simulation, some of the claims you make about psychoacoustics seem to me to be sometimes rather more speculative.  Could you cite some references in the literature about the influence of noise floor modulation on “the brains ability to create the illusion of sound“?


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## alxw0w

AndrewOld said:


> While what you say about DACs is verifiable through measurement or simulation, some of the claims you make about psychoacoustics seem to me to be sometimes rather more speculative.  Could you cite some references in the literature about the influence of noise floor modulation on “the brains ability to create the illusion of sound“?


I can highly recommend you THIS seminar from Martin Mallison (CTO ESS).
They present their own findings that were used when designing their dacs.
And indeed about 32:00 minute Martin is talking about modulating noise which is very "annoying" to human ear.
The whole presentation is very interesting to any audiophile that cares/believe in technical side of our equipment (not to some esoteric crap that many companies are pushing)


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## griff500

AndrewOld said:


> While what you say about DACs is verifiable through measurement or simulation, some of the claims you make about psychoacoustics seem to me to be sometimes rather more speculative.  Could you cite some references in the literature about the influence of noise floor modulation on “the brains ability to create the illusion of sound“?


You want references in ‘the literature’, whatever that means, to prove speculation?


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## srkbear (Apr 12, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> Often it is not the argument itself, but the tone it is expressed in which causes issues. I don’t mind measurements and sometimes enjoy reading the science as part of an overall discussion. My personal distaste with your and others’ posts is the way they are expressed. As I said, my impression after a few dozen visits to ASR is that there are a lot of unhappy folks there, ranting and raving a lot. Not my vibe. Your post was dismissive and condescending, which you admitted in your apology. But you continue to stir things up, i.e. troll. And most trolls don’t feel like they are trolling. To me trolling is showing up on a Dave thread to tell everyone the Dave is a rip off because Topping measures better. There is indeed a place for listening impressions of a less expensive dac vs the Dave, why one preferred another sound and moved on. Lots of us get antsy and move on to different sound signatures. But saying these cheap dacs are better and then throwing measurements as the reason that they are “pure” and closer to the “master,” whatever “closer” means, is an argument better suited to ASR. You will be happier there, methinks…


I’m not intending to continue my initial argument, which based on your rephrasing I clearly did not communicate well. I’ve been trying to make amends, as the hate directed my way here persists. And although I continue to concede that my tone was perhaps inappropriate (for this audience), I certainly never intentionally directed insults at anyone.

And if you would take the time to re-read what I wrote, I went out of my way to underscore my respect for current DAVE owners, and expressed a perfectly acceptable, evidence-based argument about newer-generation DACs, that is merely my one opinion amongst many others. Isn’t the truth that you simply own a DAVE and have a different viewpoint, or is this thread an echo chamber policed by force? Isn’t it a bit elitist to suggest that I’m committing heresy by daring to compare a far less expensively-produced DAC to the ritzy DAVE, which costs a small fortune? Seven years of innovation couldn’t possibly have brought us less-costly alternatives?

I make up that you’re effectively telling me to go elsewhere by saying that I’d be happier at ASR, which I think is as condescending and intolerant as what you seem to be condemning them for. Otherwise the majority of your response seems to be a long counter argument against my opinions about DAC technology, which should be no less valid than yours. The difference seems to be that although I may not completely agree with yours, I respect them.

What I’ll do instead of being banished to ASR, is to leave this thread be and get back to the ones where I’ve been welcomed in the past—and if I continue to be bullied here so be it. As my final gesture I’ll reiterate my apology for disrupting this forum. Peace.


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## BassicScience

Rob Watts said:


> Actually I agree; the idea that we need accuracy at -301dB is plainly nuts, and makes no objective sense. But I am only interested in improving sound quality, and the evidence I have based on what must be now hundreds of listening tests is that it's essential to perfectly preserve small signals - any distortion, however small, has audible consequences on depth perception. And I follow the evidence, not what my brain tells me as being sensible or not.
> 
> As to distortion of transducers, then the dreadful figures you have plotted is small fry compared to cochlea (the inner ear) distortion. That's been measured at around 4% THD, and the shocking thing is that number is SPL invariant - it doesn't change much with volume as the cochlea has an automatic gain function (AGC) to prevent loud noises damaging the ear. The brain has adaptive coping mechanisms to deal with simple harmonic distortion - otherwise we could not have the ability to separate individual sounds out into separate entities.
> 
> ...


I normally don't wade into these types of discussions on this forum, but (perhaps against my better judgment) I'd like to ask a few questions:

1) Are you actually claiming that your digital modules "accurately reproduce" -301 dB? You must be speaking theoretically instead of real world performance, correct?
1a) If not, how do you actually measure/verify such stated performance given the limitations of real world test equipment (on the order of 170 dB range, I believe)?

2) Have you published your (controlled) listening test methodology and results?
2a) If not, how would "doing one's own listening tests" have any bearing on whether one dismisses your tests as "not objective, rational, or scientific" when they have no way to duplicate what you've done? Empirical science is about the _verification _of controlled, repeatable tests.

3) If a listener "does [their own] tests" and decides they like the sound of DAVE better than DAC X, how does that _necessarily _hinge on noise floor modulation, etc., versus any of dozens of other variables between the DACs?


----------



## SteveHulk

BassicScience said:


> I normally don't wade into these types of discussions on this forum, but (perhaps against my better judgment) I'd like to ask a few questions:
> 
> 1) Are you actually claiming that your digital modules "accurately reproduce" -301 dB? You must be speaking theoretically instead of real world performance, correct?
> 1a) If not, how do you actually measure/verify such stated performance given the limitations of real world test equipment (on the order of 170 dB range, I believe)?
> ...


I think in Mr Watts' defence that we should be careful how we use scientific data in the world of audio.

Clearly, if we can attach an audio benefit to some repeatedly measurable experimental result then we should be very happy with that.

However, when an audio system is good enough to start creating a believable soundstage, we have to realise that this is the audio equivalent of an optical illusion.

The soundstage is not real as in sound actually emanating from the sources perceived in the soundstage. Sound is actually emanating from two speakers and the ear/brain is fooled into the construction of an apparent soundstage because the system is delivering many of the same cues as would be expected were the soundstage actually real.

Optical illusions and a whole plethora of visual tricks are based on the fact that the brain is very very good indeed at extrapolating and filling in the holes in incomplete visual data to create a model of the "sightscape" - and it does the same analysis with sound.

This, I think, leads to the statements such as quite a lot of 2nd harmonic distortion is tolerable as being quite musical whereas a much smaller amount of noise floor modulation can be described as unpleasant and annoying.

Just as certain optical illusions create an unresolvable conflict between competing models - a conflict so intense that it manifests as an almost physical discomfort in the brain, so acoustic illusions can be expected to do the same when adverse distortions are present. So we can hypothesise that the 2nd harmonic distortion can be easily assimilated into an acceptable model of the sound environment, whereas the noise floor modulation cannot be so assimilated. The presence of the noise floor modulation therefore creates a conflict in the mind which leads to the unpleasant experiences mentioned. 

We also have to remember that listening to audio is an interaction between a human listener and sound just as viewing art is an interaction between human vision and light. Part of the audio experience is science and part is art. 

We have no scientific apparatus to which we can show Van Gogh's "Sunflowers" and have it determine unequivocally the answer to the question "Is this a masterpiece?" and we cannot do similar to answer the question "Is this a good sound?"

Scientific measurements have their valuable role but they cannot be a complete answer.

Hence the questions posed above are probably invidious.


----------



## AndrewOld

SteveHulk said:


> So we can hypothesise that the 2nd harmonic distortion can be easily assimilated into an acceptable model of the sound environment, whereas the noise floor modulation cannot be so assimilated. The presence of the noise floor modulation therefore creates a conflict in the mind which leads to the unpleasant experiences mentioned.


Rob did not hypothesise about the relative effects of 2nd harmonic distortion and noise floor modulation on the behaviour or the brain. He stated as a matter of fact that “ the brain does have mechanisms to deal with simple distortion; but it can't deal with small signal distortions, nor noise floor modulation .. - these are unnatural distortions, and severely interfere with the brain's ability to create the illusion of sound.”

This wasn’t stated as a hypothesis, or speculation, it was stated as a matter of fact about how the brain works. Can we have a reference to an accepted text or published paper where these mechanisms are described? Who has studied the effect of noise floor modulation on the brain, and where have they published the results?.


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## griff500

SteveHulk said:


> Hence the questions posed above are probably invidious.


Probably?


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## SteveHulk

griff500 said:


> Probably?


Being a scientist myself, I decline to deal in absolutes 😀


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## BassicScience (Apr 12, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> I think in Mr Watts' defence that we should be careful how we use scientific data in the world of audio.
> 
> Clearly, if we can attach an audio benefit to some repeatedly measurable experimental result then we should be very happy with that.
> 
> ...


Mr. Watts wrote (emphasis mine):

_Actually I agree; *the idea that we need accuracy at -301dB is plainly nuts, and makes no objective sense*. But I am only interested in improving sound quality, and *the evidence I have based on what must be now hundreds of listening tests* is that it's essential to perfectly preserve small signals - *any distortion, however small, has audible consequences on depth perception. And I follow the evidence, not what my brain tells me as being sensible or not*._

--------

When something makes "no objective sense", but there is empirical testing to support it, the onus is on the person conducting the tests to publish in detail their methods and results, so that others may try to replicate the results. That is, if the person is interested in being recognized for a genuine discovery about the limits of human perception. Without evidence, we are being asked to accept the results of Mr. Watts' testing on faith. As a scientist, are you comfortable with that? I'm not.

Mr Watts also wrote (emphasis mine):

_PS. In my own defence of insisting that digital modules accurately reproduce -301 dB and have zero noise floor modulation - *science is ignorant on how the brain separates individual sounds* out and assign placement data to these sounds to create the extraordinary illusion of sound that we perceive. It's likely that correlation functions play a part in this; and correlation can resolve an infinitely small signal in noise with an infinite amount of time. *So dismissing my listening test evidence without doing your own listening tests is not objective, rational or scientific*. But you are right to be sceptical; Carl Sagan once said “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” - *I just wish people would do their own listening tests and come up with their own evidence before dismissing things out of hand*.

---------

*How *_the brain operates is somewhat immaterial to the discussion. Humans can either hear noise at -301 dB, or not. All published evidence to date (not to mention common sense) indicates that they cannot. Mr. Watts says that it is "not objective, rational, or scientific" to dismiss his listening tests unless we do our own. This is a _non sequitur_. To confirm (or deny) Mr. Watts' results, we'd have to be running the same tests under the same conditions (to eliminate other variables), _not our own tests_. Even then, there's a subjective element to perception, so the tests would have to be run by a large enough number of people to yield a result of statistical significance.

If my questions are "invidious", it's only because I'm asking for evidence amongst people who are content to take things on faith. Seems strange to be called out by a scientist in such a scenario, but that's why I knew it was probably ill-advised to post here in the first place. Cheers.


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## Sampajanna

If I understand the discussion, and I admittedly may not, I think Rob is not suggesting that we can hear -301db, but that changes made at -301 do effect things in our hearing range and we can hear those changes. This is akin to the way that changes in tweeters at well beyond human hearing do affect the range we hear. There are many examples of things we cannot perceive having an influence on that which we can. 

It seems that Rob and some other audio designers are taking an approach of creating products that they themselves want to hear and using their own preferences and hearing to tweak the product, hoping that if they hear it and enjoy it others will too. I agree with this approach. Music is way too subjective for measurements, tests and etc to be anything more than a part of the discussion. You don’t order from the menu based on some chemical analysis machine that objectively dictates which ingredients are needed for cellular maintenance. You order based on what you like. That doesn’t mean food tasting is entirely wish-wash subjectivity either. There are expert tasters and they have sensitivity and vocabulary to taste. The best of these would also be chefs, who can not only taste but prepare  better food. 

IMO the last say, the final evaluator—the last instrument worth measuring audio gear  is the human ear and brain. If the human in question is trained how to hear and what to listen to, they will be a better advisor. If they also understand the underlying engineering, they may be able to make a great product. I dont want an analyzer machine to tell me what I like, or should like. If I did, I would be using a Topping… I am after joy, happiness, fun and music, music, music. Musical engagement, soul, connection to the MUSIC I love. I use gear to listen to music, not music to hear gear. If i spend a decade happily, blissfully fully engaged in loving my music for hours a day and am super happy, who cares if what caused it isnt fully objective or understood? Who cares if it is placebo even? My perspective is very limited, but as I mentioned in an earlier post, the measurement, bench test type in the audio community rarely talk about music or the enjoyment of music, and seem rather unhappy in general….

Rob has brought me lots of joy. Lots. For that I am grateful.


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## sm60

Sampajanna said:


> If I understand the discussion, and I admittedly may not, I think Rob is not suggesting that we can hear -301db, but that changes made at -301 do effect things in our hearing range and we can hear those changes. This is akin to the way that changes in tweeters at well beyond human hearing do affect the range we hear. There are many examples of things we cannot perceive having an influence on that which we can.
> 
> It seems that Rob and some other audio designers are taking an approach of creating products that they themselves want to hear and using their own preferences and hearing to tweak the product, hoping that if they hear it and enjoy it others will too. I agree with this approach. Music is way too subjective for measurements, tests and etc to be anything more than a part of the discussion. You don’t order from the menu based on some chemical analysis machine that objectively dictates which ingredients are needed for cellular maintenance. You order based on what you like. That doesn’t mean food tasting is entirely wish-wash subjectivity either. There are expert tasters and they have sensitivity and vocabulary to taste. The best of these would also be chefs, who can not only taste but prepare  better food.
> 
> ...


Here’s one interesting factoid about our hearing that you may not know (from Stevens book on Audiology). At the most sensitive frequency for human hearing (around 1 kHz), if you look at the faintest sound we can reliably hear (what audiologists call the JND -- just noticeable difference), the eardrum moves less than the width of a hydrogen atom! Just ponder that for a minute….how in the blazes does the ear/brain figure out such a low level signal that moves the eardrum less than the width of a hydrogen atom, while remaining impervious to all the random molecules bouncing around in our ear. 

This makes me want to believe in Rob’s thesis about -300dB differences, although I want a deeper understanding of what’s going on here……


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## Reactcore (Apr 13, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> the last instrument worth measuring audio gear  is the human ear and brain. If the human in question is trained how to hear and what to listen to, they will be a better advisor.



It keeps me wondering..
@Rob Watts did you solely conducted all hearing tests alone while tweaking filters or were there also other persons involved?

Lol i can imagine a debate about a magnitude of a change one hears that the other dont😄 

I dont think all human brains are exactly equal in creating their 'illusion of sound'


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## Rob Watts

AndrewOld said:


> While what you say about DACs is verifiable through measurement or simulation, some of the claims you make about psychoacoustics seem to me to be sometimes rather more speculative.  Could you cite some references in the literature about the influence of noise floor modulation on “the brains ability to create the illusion of sound“?



I haven't seen anything about noise floor modulation in the psychoacoustic literature. It's just my listening tests that suggests that this is a serious problem.

Psychoacoustics seem stuck on determining the performance of the ear, and not on the problems of the brain creating the audio illusion.



BassicScience said:


> I normally don't wade into these types of discussions on this forum, but (perhaps against my better judgment) I'd like to ask a few questions:
> 
> 1) Are you actually claiming that your digital modules "accurately reproduce" -301 dB? You must be speaking theoretically instead of real world performance, correct?
> 1a) If not, how do you actually measure/verify such stated performance given the limitations of real world test equipment (on the order of 170 dB range, I believe)?
> ...



No problem in asking questions, and actually question 1 is pertinent and something that nobody has asked and should ask.

1. So the tests are set up with a 80 bit sine wave source, that is running at 768 kHz - the OP is noise shaped down to the input of the module under test. That would be at least 24 bit input, but 768k/24b aggressively noise shaped will give noise well below -400 dB within the audio bandwidth. Of course, on a 384kHz bandwidth it will be limited to 24 bit levels, so worse than 144 dB. Then this signal is passed through the module under test, simulated, and results captured. I then do FFTs on the OP data, and can check the accuracy of the -301 db signal (which is usually set to 6kHz). Just to clarify it's all done with Verilog simulation which tells you exactly how a correctly performing module will behave with that data input.

So the test is not theoretical, but real, in that it will test how the module actually performs with an aggressively noise shaped -301dB 6 kHz signal.

2. I have not published my results in say the AES. I have done papers before, and it takes a huge amount of time to do - time I don't have, given how far behind I am on my design projects. Agreed, empirical science should be about verification; the difficulty here is the subjective element. My listening tests would be considered anecdotal and not scientific evidence; but my job is to close the gap from live to recorded sound, and the tests I do are extremely carefully done and objective - and when I get a results that defies explanation I will do a single blind test with disinterested parties. That is more than enough evidence for me to do my job - that is closing the gap from live to recorded.

If you look at my blog Watts up? on Head-Fi you can read about recent recordings I have done so I can compare directly live against recorded - and the thing that struck me was the huge difference in depth perception when listening live against reproduced - this is the primary challenge that audio faces. So if the problem with depth reproduction is not down to small signal accuracy, then why does reproduced audio fail so badly with depth perception?

3. It doesn't solely depend on noise floor modulation, there are many other problems too. And you have to counter too with someone's taste - many listeners are not very objective in their listening tests. 

Just to clarify - I am not saying that a -301dB signal is in any way audible - I am just saying that the distortion performance at that level is audible. How the distortion becomes audible I do not understand; perhaps it's the distortion affecting signals that are audible, although the levels are minute. Perhaps it's something to do with correlation functions that the brain employs.  



AndrewOld said:


> Rob did not hypothesise about the relative effects of 2nd harmonic distortion and noise floor modulation on the behaviour or the brain. He stated as a matter of fact that “ the brain does have mechanisms to deal with simple distortion; but it can't deal with small signal distortions, nor noise floor modulation .. - these are unnatural distortions, and severely interfere with the brain's ability to create the illusion of sound.”
> 
> This wasn’t stated as a hypothesis, or speculation, it was stated as a matter of fact about how the brain works. Can we have a reference to an accepted text or published paper where these mechanisms are described? Who has studied the effect of noise floor modulation on the brain, and where have they published the results?.



The distortion of the ear being tolerated or processed by the brain is something I read about in the 1980's when spending time in the psychology library reading about psychoacoustics. I can't give you a reference.



Sampajanna said:


> If I understand the discussion, and I admittedly may not, I think Rob is not suggesting that we can hear -301db, but that changes made at -301 do effect things in our hearing range and we can hear those changes. This is akin to the way that changes in tweeters at well beyond human hearing do affect the range we hear. There are many examples of things we cannot perceive having an influence on that which we can.
> 
> It seems that Rob and some other audio designers are taking an approach of creating products that they themselves want to hear and using their own preferences and hearing to tweak the product, hoping that if they hear it and enjoy it others will too. I agree with this approach. Music is way too subjective for measurements, tests and etc to be anything more than a part of the discussion. You don’t order from the menu based on some chemical analysis machine that objectively dictates which ingredients are needed for cellular maintenance. You order based on what you like. That doesn’t mean food tasting is entirely wish-wash subjectivity either. There are expert tasters and they have sensitivity and vocabulary to taste. The best of these would also be chefs, who can not only taste but prepare  better food.
> 
> ...



Thank-you. Agreed on the enjoyment of music front - that's all I am trying to do.


----------



## 801evan

On the flip side, many have tried to explain how another product is better than Chord (via selective objectivism), but just listening to Chord products I know Chord is better without needing to know why.


----------



## JohnA1

alxw0w said:


> I can highly recommend you THIS seminar from Martin Mallison (CTO ESS).
> They present their own findings that were used when designing their dacs.
> And indeed about 32:00 minute Martin is talking about modulating noise which is very "annoying" to human ear.
> The whole presentation is very interesting to any audiophile that cares/believe in technical side of our equipment (not to some esoteric crap that many companies are pushing)


This is the very first time I've come across someone else describing concepts similar to those of Rob and the unbelievably high db figures that the human ear/brain may be able to discriminate

Nice find.


----------



## watermad

Ground Devices?

I am a vey happy long-term owner of a Chord DAVE/M-scaler pairing and was wondering if anyone has tried either of these devices on the DAVE; since there was reports of RFI pickup between the M-Scaler and DAVE, I added ferrites to my double BNC connectors?

https://chord.co.uk/product/groundaray-advanced-high-frequency-noise-reduction/
https://ansuz-acoustics.com/products/ansuz-sortz

I will be getting a demo of the Ansuz in the coming months so will report back on if it has any effect on the DAVE.


----------



## BassicScience

Rob Watts said:


> I haven't seen anything about noise floor modulation in the psychoacoustic literature. It's just my listening tests that suggests that this is a serious problem.
> 
> Psychoacoustics seem stuck on determining the performance of the ear, and not on the problems of the brain creating the audio illusion.
> 
> ...


Mr. Watts,

*Firstly, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions*. Secondly, as a general statement to various other responders to my post, I'm not suggesting that measurements alone will tell you too much about how you will perceive soundstage or any other attribute of a DAC's performance. In fact, it seems to me that Mr. Watts is the one advancing that argument when he says "any distortion, however small, has audible consequences on depth perception". Based on a lot of personal experience with 2-channel systems over the years, rooms and speakers generally have more to do with soundstage dimensions and layering than DACs do. Rooms aren't a factor in headphone listening obviously (although individual ear topology is), but clearly soundstaging varies rather dramatically between different headphones, again more so than between different DACs I've owned or auditioned over the years.  

Regarding the specific answers to my questions:

1) You state "Then this signal is passed through the module under test, simulated, and results captured". I'm slightly confused here. What is the "module under test" exactly, and why is simulation necessary? 

2) I wasn't suggesting that you should necessarily publish your results in AES or elsewhere, given intellectual property concerns, the time involved, etc. *I was pushing back on the notion that people weren't being "rational"* in questioning your findings when they have no actual documentation on exactly what those findings are and how you arrived at them. You also state "the tests I do are extremely carefully done and objective", but we don't really have insight into your exact methods or testing setup. It's pretty easy to convince oneself that you're being completely objective (I've done it myself), but you're developing commercial products, not working for a research institution, so without external verification of results, people might _reasonably _have doubts about that, IMO.

Thanks for clarifying the -301 dB audibility claim. What you're saying seems at least plausible now, although it's still not clear to me how much it may actually affect the perceived performance of a DAC. The DAVE is clearly a very fine and unique product, but there are a lot of high end DACs now on the market which have addressed noise floor modulation and reduced distortion artifacts well below audibility. The differences in sound between them may or may not hinge on the performance metrics you are choosing to highlight. It's an interesting academic question, but it may remain academic given that you're unlikely to publish your findings anytime soon, and almost everyone selects equipment based on personal auditions coupled with ergonomic and pricing factors anyway.


----------



## SteveHulk

Over the Summer I'm going to be in the market for an upgrade to the power supply of my DAVE.

At the moment I'm looking at the Sean Jacobs one-box solution outboard PSU and the Farad 3 three-box setup with a control board which goes inside the DAVE.

My own experience, particularly with power amps, has shown me that when the costs of a design have to be reduced to bring the device in at a price point it is very often the PSU that gets the most savage haircut. 

Does anybody here have any views or experiences relating to the Dave PSU upgrades that they would care to share?


----------



## Ciggavelli

SteveHulk said:


> Over the Summer I'm going to be in the market for an upgrade to the power supply of my DAVE.
> 
> At the moment I'm looking at the Sean Jacobs one-box solution outboard PSU and the Farad 3 three-box setup with a control board which goes inside the DAVE.
> 
> ...


25% improvement with the SJ DC4 on my DAVE. 10% improvement with the other DC4 on my M-Scaler is my rough estimate. Improved noise floor, which helps with dynamics, soundstage and bass. 

If you are running hard to drive headphones out of your DAVE directly (like TCs or Susvaras), it’s a 200% improvement, literally. You can’t adequately drive TCs and Susvaras off the standard power supply, in my opinion. You definitely can with the SJ DC4. It’s literally night and day. I have a WA33, so I don’t really care, but that solid state option is nice. Dare I say bass impact is actually greater on the DC4 DAVE than my WA33. Details are perhaps better, but it’s also more fatiguing


----------



## jlbrach

the power supply definitely can make a huge difference because when I added the powerman to my formula s some time ago I found it able to drive the susvara pretty well despite modest wattage...I havent heard my dave with any upgrade but it is interesting


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## Sampajanna

2X DC4 makes the Dave into Dave 2.0… It takes everything you love about HMS+Dave and improves it… Well worth it if you can afford it!


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## GryphonGuy

I don't know what the base DC4 does to DAVE but I have the ARC6 version with Mundorf wiring upgrade and it is as good as would expect a reference level Chord DAC to sound and not in the Choral range. Huge change in DAVE. I'm so satisfied with the upgrade that I will be saving some money this year as there is no desire to upgrade anything further in my system.


----------



## sm60

Rob Watts said:


> I haven't seen anything about noise floor modulation in the psychoacoustic literature. It's just my listening tests that suggests that this is a serious problem.
> 
> Psychoacoustics seem stuck on determining the performance of the ear, and not on the problems of the brain creating the audio illusion.
> 
> ...


Following up on Rob’s really cool observations on the inferiority of USB vs. optical, which I had previously cast doubt on, I realize that instinctively I was always preferring to the sound of red book CDs (either on the Blu or on my ultra Uber CEC TL0 Mk2 transport) to what I hear from streaming via Qobuz/Roon. I wonder if there’s something to his astute observation now. I can’t explain it rationally. USB should sound the same as SPDIF. Except it doesn’t. I still enjoy playing back my CDs through a high quality CD transport. Why? Is it because subliminally my brain is telling me something is awry with respect to USB streaming.


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## 801evan (Apr 14, 2022)

sm60 said:


> Following up on Rob’s really cool observations on the inferiority of USB vs. optical, which I had previously cast doubt on, I realize that instinctively I was always preferring to the sound of red book CDs (either on the Blu or on my ultra Uber CEC TL0 Mk2 transport) to what I hear from streaming via Qobuz/Roon. I wonder if there’s something to his astute observation now. I can’t explain it rationally. USB should sound the same as SPDIF. Except it doesn’t. I still enjoy playing back my CDs through a high quality CD transport. Why? Is it because subliminally my brain is telling me something is awry with respect to USB streaming.


CDT is simpler and have components that are lower in noise in general over digital file streaming, which needs an operating system and such. CDT always has a wider soundstage, better tonality that digital streaming has troubles catching up with and making redbook always superior over Hi-Res


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## Rob Watts (Apr 14, 2022)

BassicScience said:


> Mr. Watts,
> 
> *Firstly, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions*. Secondly, as a general statement to various other responders to my post, I'm not suggesting that measurements alone will tell you too much about how you will perceive soundstage or any other attribute of a DAC's performance. In fact, it seems to me that Mr. Watts is the one advancing that argument when he says "any distortion, however small, has audible consequences on depth perception". Based on a lot of personal experience with 2-channel systems over the years, rooms and speakers generally have more to do with soundstage dimensions and layering than DACs do. Rooms aren't a factor in headphone listening obviously (although individual ear topology is), but clearly soundstaging varies rather dramatically between different headphones, again more so than between different DACs I've owned or auditioned over the years.
> 
> ...


Your first question was:

"1) You state "Then this signal is passed through the module under test, simulated, and results captured". I'm slightly confused here. What is the "module under test" exactly, and why is simulation necessary?"

Digital design starts off by defining an overall functional spec, then breaking the design down into various modules. Each module will have it's own spec; you then write the HDL (hardware description language - I use Verilog) code (in the good old days it would be done with macros and gates schematically) and then you have to test that code. You could jump straight to a FPGA and test it in real life, but that's a dangerous and reckless way to proceed. So you test it by creating a simulation, where the module under test is fed some input data, and the output of the module is captured with both a visual display and with data outputted into a file. The tests are to explore that it works as intended, and you run some what if scenarios to catch unexpected behaviour. The more you test, the more likely you won't have bugs.

But the really interesting thing about simulation is that you can do really powerful measurements - and these measurements are 100% accurate given the input data - and you can explore the audible performance using these real measurements. That's how I can observe -301dB performance (and stuff below that as well). Once your suite of tests are complete, you can listen to the various modules and then see if a particular distortion makes a difference to the sound. And this is the really strange thing - ultra small effects are audible. When designing Dave I started with my usual 200dB noise shapers, and progressively improved the performance of the noise shaper and noticed that every improvement gave an improvement in depth perception - I ended up with 350 dB noise shaping (that's the best I can do currently), and to test these noise shapers I used the -301dB test. Now every module that is in the digital audio path has to pass the -301 dB test - that is perfect amplitude accuracy and perfect phase accuracy too - if you want it to be transparent. And I do this now as a matter of course - it's just my standard test. And I re-evaluate this with listening tests - that's why I am confident that this is a good metric to define transparency in the digital domain, as I have repeated these listening tests on many different occasions - and still hear the same thing.

Your second question was:

"2) I wasn't suggesting that you should necessarily publish your results in AES or elsewhere, given intellectual property concerns, the time involved, etc. *I was pushing back on the notion that people weren't being "rational"* in questioning your findings when they have no actual documentation on exactly what those findings are and how you arrived at them. You also state "the tests I do are extremely carefully done and objective", but we don't really have insight into your exact methods or testing setup. It's pretty easy to convince oneself that you're being completely objective (I've done it myself), but you're developing commercial products, not working for a research institution, so without external verification of results, people might _reasonably _have doubts about that, IMO."

Apologies if I gave the impression that people were not being rational in questioning my findings. It is entirely rational to be sceptical - and even rational to be sceptical about ones scepticism. My observations are just that - things I have evaluated and concluded to be important, and should be treated as just my opinion. I always treat my listening tests as being tentative and subject to re-evaluation, no matter how careful you approach things. In particular, one has to be very careful about whether a SQ change is actually good or bad - it's extremely easy to hear an increase in brightness as better transparency when in fact it's actually worse due to more noise floor modulation for example. That said, when you do a listening test and it clearly sounds better in a defined way (like better depth - there is no question about interpretation here) and do that test many times over on many different occasions and it still does the same, then it's sensible to conclude that something real is happening - even if it is due to something that appears ultra small or insignificant.

My annoyance comes when people instantly dismiss listening tests and state that it's impossible that something can make a difference without doing any kind of listening tests themselves. Science is about discovering and understanding new things - that means being both highly sceptical and very open minded at the same time as reality is much more complex than our very limited understanding.


----------



## mbj666

Hi all after bit of advice on an end game set of headphones that match well to dave

For my portable setup have hifiman anandas which I really like and some new focal clear mg pro which i haven't properly run in yet 

Enjoying the difference experience headphones bring but curious as to what partners well with a dave 

Thx

Mat


----------



## adrianm

mbj666 said:


> Hi all after bit of advice on an end game set of headphones that match well to dave
> 
> For my portable setup have hifiman anandas which I really like and some new focal clear mg pro which i haven't properly run in yet
> 
> ...


Meze Elite are the best I've found, for my tastes. They add a bit of warmth, but not overly so.


----------



## Amberlamps

Rob Watts said:


> Your first question was:
> 
> "1) You state "Then this signal is passed through the module under test, simulated, and results captured". I'm slightly confused here. What is the "module under test" exactly, and why is simulation necessary?"
> 
> ...



I did some tests myself, I eventually came to conclusion that the earth really is flat and that on the dark side of the moon there is a hotel where all the guests throw their car keys in to a bowl, not sure why though.


----------



## Malcyg (Apr 14, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> Science is about discovering and understanding new things - that means being both highly sceptical and very open minded at the same time as reality is much more complex than our very limited understanding.



From my own experience and having the benefit of input from people who know far more than I do technically, this sums up where we are in both the evolution of our own personal systems and the design of new digital products. Unfortunately, some people seemingly take up the sceptical option without necessarily accepting the open minded aspect.


----------



## GryphonGuy

sm60 said:


> Following up on Rob’s really cool observations on the inferiority of USB vs. optical, which I had previously cast doubt on, I realize that instinctively I was always preferring to the sound of red book CDs (either on the Blu or on my ultra Uber CEC TL0 Mk2 transport) to what I hear from streaming via Qobuz/Roon. I wonder if there’s something to his astute observation now. I can’t explain it rationally. USB should sound the same as SPDIF. Except it doesn’t. I still enjoy playing back my CDs through a high quality CD transport. Why? Is it because subliminally my brain is telling me something is awry with respect to USB streaming.



I think the WTA has the scope to do more processing of the lower res files than the higher res audio files and thus the magic of that filter is more pronounced on red-book resolution audio than on, say, 192kHz material.


----------



## BassicScience

Rob Watts said:


> Your first question was:
> 
> "1) You state "Then this signal is passed through the module under test, simulated, and results captured". I'm slightly confused here. What is the "module under test" exactly, and why is simulation necessary?"
> 
> ...


Thanks again, Rob. Very good info.

I guess my next question would be: you've done the simulations, and everything is operating with vanishingly low distortion and noise floor modulation. Presumably, you then burn this code onto an FPGA, and listen to the result. *There must be other sources of noise and distortion in the actual hardware that overlay what shows up in the simulation, correct? *Or am I missing something?


----------



## Rob Watts

BassicScience said:


> Thanks again, Rob. Very good info.
> 
> I guess my next question would be: you've done the simulations, and everything is operating with vanishingly low distortion and noise floor modulation. Presumably, you then burn this code onto an FPGA, and listen to the result. *There must be other sources of noise and distortion in the actual hardware that overlay what shows up in the simulation, correct? *Or am I missing something?


Correct - if possible (which is the vast majority of the time) I will embed the listening options into the FPGA, so you can use a bit switch to listen to the options. In the past different place and route (different FPGA configurations) would sound very different. Today they sound very similar, but doing listening tests you need to remove any possibility of listening to other problems - you only want to hear the variable you are looking at.

The simulation/listening approach is fantastic for steady state stimulus - you can measure and listen to extremely small errors. But it's not good at defining transient errors; for that it's a case of listening to optimize performance and guide your understanding of what is going on.

The analogue hardware is another problem. You can use SPICE simulation (which I do extensively) to measure very small errors, but that doesn't perfectly describe the actual performance unlike Verilog simulation. And making significant changes often means new layouts, and that takes months. And then the errors that you know are audible you can't measure. It's these delays that is the reason why new designs take years to do - and there is always something unexpected or odd that happens. And it's why with new analogue designs I spend a lot of time on SPICE modelling - it's easier to see and correct errors at this stage than with prototypes.


----------



## mat.1

Can Dave output both rca and xlr simultaneously to 2 different amp ?


----------



## saudio7

Yes.


----------



## Reactcore

Rob Watts said:


> And it's why with new analogue designs I spend a lot of time on SPICE modelling - it's easier to see and correct errors at this stage than with prototypes.



Spice is a circuit design and behaviour test software. But does this take extreme small signal (un)linearities into account well enough?.. even PCB material choice can change its components characteristics.

I assume you use it as 'rough' start.. followed by single component change and listening tests too?


----------



## Rob Watts

Reactcore said:


> Spice is a circuit design and behaviour test software. But does this take extreme small signal (un)linearities into account well enough?.. even PCB material choice can change its components characteristics.
> 
> I assume you use it as 'rough' start.. followed by single component change and listening tests too?


Sure you can model non-linearities - I often look at distortion harmonics well below -200dB. And the models are pretty good, for say things like the discrete OP stage and the second order noise shaper (the amp in the DACs). But they are models, not exact representations, and for parasitics you have to estimate these effects and model it yourself.

When doing RF analysis, you need to add PCB track impedances, and the internal parasitics of passive components (inductance, series resistance and internal capacitances - the parasitic/internal LRC) these can be estimated quite accurately. How close you get to reality depends upon how much work you do, and how accurate the estimates of these parasitics are.

SPICE is also really good at improving your understanding of a particular distortion and error, and quantifying it from first principles, particularly when you add all the parasitics and internal LRCs. I remember in the early 80s designing high performance SOTA thick film hybrid op-amps (0.5GHz gain bandwidth unity stable audio op-amps) which took months to design with pen, paper and calculator, and months to tweak in hardware. Today with SPICE it would take a day and be much more accurate, with a good chance it would work first time with hardware.


----------



## Reactcore

Rob Watts said:


> Sure you can model non-linearities - I often look at distortion harmonics well below -200dB. And the models are pretty good, for say things like the discrete OP stage and the second order noise shaper (the amp in the DACs). But they are models, not exact representations, and for parasitics you have to estimate these effects and model it yourself.
> 
> When doing RF analysis, you need to add PCB track impedances, and the internal parasitics of passive components (inductance, series resistance and internal capacitances - the parasitic/internal LRC) these can be estimated quite accurately. How close you get to reality depends upon how much work you do, and how accurate the estimates of these parasitics are.
> 
> SPICE is also really good at improving your understanding of a particular distortion and error, and quantifying it from first principles, particularly when you add all the parasitics and internal LRCs. I remember in the early 80s designing high performance SOTA thick film hybrid op-amps (0.5GHz gain bandwidth unity stable audio op-amps) which took months to design with pen, paper and calculator, and months to tweak in hardware. Today with SPICE it would take a day and be much more accurate, with a good chance it would work first time with hardware.



I havent worked with the program.. only seen it on ocasion. Do component brands supply LCR values to load in e.g. Spice or does all need to be estimated? A side effect capacitance for a inductor can work in favor too. 
Or laying PCB tracks in ways to create impedances.


----------



## mat.1

Just got the Dave , how long the break in time ?
I came from TT2 and find no significant difference of the sound .


----------



## MvRBE10

Same with dave, maybe a bit but not major difference


----------



## zen87192

mat.1 said:


> Just got the Dave , how long the break in time ?
> I came from TT2 and find no significant difference of the sound .


Congratulations on your newly acquired DAVE. Coming over from the TT2 will require a bit of time. Your ears have to adjust accordingly as you are still remembering the TT2 'sound signature'. You will know when you have reached the hearing difference goal when you begin to hear everything in between and behind the Music that you previously did not notice. It will also become much more 'airier' in the soundstage. They will be very mild at first and then you will begin to actually listen for differences.... and hear them. It will take about..... 20 hours of listening to 'break you out' of the TT2 but the wait... and listening.... is worth the while. May I ask what Headphones you are using?


----------



## mat.1

zen87192 said:


> Congratulations on your newly acquired DAVE. Coming over from the TT2 will require a bit of time. Your ears have to adjust accordingly as you are still remembering the TT2 'sound signature'. You will know when you have reached the hearing difference goal when you begin to hear everything in between and behind the Music that you previously did not notice. It will also become much more 'airier' in the soundstage. They will be very mild at first and then you will begin to actually listen for differences.... and hear them. It will take about..... 20 hours of listening to 'break you out' of the TT2 but the wait... and listening.... is worth the while. May I ask what Headphones you are using?


Thanks.
I am using DCA Stealth right now , maybe after a few days will start with Audeze LCD5 .


----------



## zen87192

Excellent. Both great Headphones... Stay with the Stealth.... accustomise yourself with the DAVE/Stealth combo. Once you've said to yourself... Wow..... now I know.... .change over to the LCD-5's and be prepared to hear even more information within the Music. LCD-5's are what I'm using and they are perfect for the DAVE. You may wish later to seek out a really nice Headphone Amp and run the DAVE through that for them to receive max voltage to make them really 'sing'.


----------



## 801evan

Also add sorbothanes on most of your gear and consider the src dx. With the Stealth/Susvara the Dave was undynamic and underwhelming otherwise.


----------



## Reactcore

mat.1 said:


> Just got the Dave , how long the break in time ?
> I came from TT2 and find no significant difference of the sound .


😀 Welcome to the club!

Tip: try to relax and listen to the words artists are singing.. i was amazed how with Dave i can distinguish what is told in songs.
It always annoyed me i had to dig for lyrics sometimes.

You have the Mscaler too?


----------



## mat.1

Reactcore said:


> 😀 Welcome to the club!
> 
> Tip: try to relax and listen to the words artists are singing.. i was amazed how with Dave i can distinguish what is told in songs.
> It always annoyed me i had to dig for lyrics sometimes.
> ...


Yes , i have the mscaler.
It's getting better after a few hour👍.


----------



## Reactcore

Not shure if its linked already here..
Currawong's video about HMS&TT2.
He also talks about Dave.


----------



## ZappaMan

MvRBE10 said:


> Same with dave, maybe a bit but not major difference


were you able to return it ?


----------



## Slim1970

mat.1 said:


> Just got the Dave , how long the break in time ?
> I came from TT2 and find no significant difference of the sound .


When I moved up from the TT2 to the Dave, the difference in performance was immediate. The Dave was more open, even more resolving, instrument separation was better, there was more depth to the sound and much better staging to my ears. Getting the Dave made me change everything I connected to it. The TT2 is more forgiving with most gear.


----------



## MvRBE10

ZappaMan said:


> were you able to return it ?


Return what? My TT2 you mean yes dealer took it back for retail amount on my dave.


----------



## ZappaMan

MvRBE10 said:


> Return what? My TT2 you mean yes dealer took it back for retail amount on my dave.


no i meant the dave, this was before you said, you could hear a difference.


----------



## MvRBE10

I ment the running in time not much difference in sound after some burning in time. The rest is perfect. Maybe i dont understand you but in general the chord product do not change much after burning in is my experience.


----------



## ZappaMan

mat.1 said:


> Just got the Dave , how long the break in time ?
> I came from TT2 and find no significant difference of the sound .


You mean you’re not getting your moneys worth lol?


----------



## ZappaMan

MvRBE10 said:


> I ment the running in time not much difference in sound after some burning in time. The rest is perfect. Maybe i dont understand you but in general the chord product do not change much after burning in is my experience.


I see now sorry


----------



## zen87192

Just got a great Easter deal on a Silent Angel Munich M1T (Streamer Transport) with a Silent Angel F1 LPS with N8 Network Audio Switch. Something to hook in to my DAVE instead of my DAP. Should be a good combo.

https://www.silent-angel-audio.com/munich-m1t


----------



## mat.1

ZappaMan said:


> You mean you’re not getting your moneys worth lol?


No,
After a few hour i find Dave is good for me .


----------



## adrianm

mat.1 said:


> No,
> After a few hour i find Dave is good for me .


What does the rest of your system look like?


----------



## Triode User

mat.1 said:


> Just got the Dave , how long the break in time ?
> I came from TT2 and find no significant difference of the sound .


I have had a 5 year old Dave and a brand new one side by side and could not hear any difference. To my ears there is more or less zero break in time with the dave.

Your comment about not hearing any significant difference in sound between the TT2 and Dave is rather puzzling. I would have thought that if you play some of your most familiar tracks you will soon hear the difference.


----------



## 801evan

Triode User said:


> I have had a 5 year old Dave and a brand new one side by side and could not hear any difference. To my ears there is more or less zero break in time with the dave.
> 
> Your comment about not hearing any significant difference in sound between the TT2 and Dave is rather puzzling. I would have thought that if you play some of your most familiar tracks you will soon hear the difference.


Don't you hear the benefits of warm up on the Dave? How long would you need warm-up if so?


----------



## mat.1

Triode User said:


> I have had a 5 year old Dave and a brand new one side by side and could not hear any difference. To my ears there is more or less zero break in time with the dave.
> 
> Your comment about not hearing any significant difference in sound between the TT2 and Dave is rather puzzling. I would have thought that if you play some of your most familiar tracks you will soon hear the difference.


Maybe its because i must disconnect and powering off everything to install Dave. There is clock on streamer , uptone etc ...


----------



## mat.1

adrianm said:


> What does the rest of your system look like?


I am using uptone etherregen, lumin u1 mini, enleum,wa33, lcd5 ,dca stealth, abyss TC.


----------



## adrianm

mat.1 said:


> I am using uptone etherregen, lumin u1 mini, enleum,wa33, lcd5 ,dca stealth, abyss TC.


I would try to avoid the USB out of the U1 mini, and use Coax or optical instead. Also, i hope you have a good mains filter. Dave is very sensitive to power and source.


----------



## mat.1

adrianm said:


> I would try to avoid the USB out of the U1 mini, and use Coax or optical instead. Also, i hope you have a good mains filter. Dave is very sensitive to power and source.


Thanks,
I am using shunyata denali.


----------



## Triode User

801evan said:


> Don't you hear the benefits of warm up on the Dave? How long would you need warm-up if so?


I never turn my Dave off.


----------



## 801evan

Triode User said:


> I never turn my Dave off.





Triode User said:


> I have had a 5 year old Dave and a brand new one side by side and could not hear any difference.



Gotcha. So both 5yr old and new Dave were on and warmed up?


----------



## Triode User

801evan said:


> Gotcha. So both 5yr old and new Dave were on and warmed up?


Yep.


----------



## 801evan

mat.1 said:


> am using shunyata denali.


I look forward to your Stealth demo on it as I love it on mine where the Dave is behind a conditioner and on src dx, and many disagreed on the ability of the Dave to drive the Stealth and Susvara. 😂 



Triode User said:


> Yep


Super helpful info as I've seen you mentioned this setup before but I didn't ask further and I can now nod to your claims. I need 24 hour warm up on mine so I can't rely on quick A/B comparison.


----------



## mat.1

801evan said:


> I look forward to your Stealth demo on it as I love it on mine where the Dave is behind a conditioner and on src dx, and many disagreed on the ability of the Dave to drive the Stealth and Susvara. 😂


Stealth on Dave is good, i can now hear at low volume level, as it seem have a black background comparing with TT2 or Denafrips.


----------



## 801evan

mat.1 said:


> Stealth on Dave is good, i can now hear at low volume level, as it seem have a black background comparing with TT2 or Denafrips.


Great to hear. I didn't have the tt2 on the same chain but I feel the midbass/upper bass is a bit more extended and open on the Dave so it feels deeper while on the tt2 it was a bit more closed in. Then the upper mids and up is equally open and fast so it gives a much larger soundstage.

I prefer HF ON and crossfeed ON if on the susvara. I think on the stealth I prefer HF OFF.


----------



## mat.1

Rob , is it ok to use XLR to RCA adapter on XLR output ( I need to try my balanced cable to output into RCA amp )


----------



## Clive101

mat.1 said:


> Rob , is it ok to use XLR to RCA adapter on XLR output ( I need to try my balanced cable to output into RCA amp )


Similar question but RCA output to XLR input on a different device.


----------



## Hiker816

So, I'm excited to join the family after my recent purchase:




(Please excuse the cable mess).  When I first set it up, I plugged my ZMF VCs into the DAVE's headphone out.  To be honest, I was a little underwhelmed.  Then I moved to my SR1a's through the HSA-1b.  My immediate reaction was "Holy Sh!t!"  Very obvious why everyone raves about this DAC.  

And, after about a day and half of burn in, my ZMFs directly out of the DAVE started sounding much better.  Now, they sound great!  I think burn in is very real, at least for the DAVE's headphone amp.

I expect I'll have a lot of dumb questions over the next few months.  Thanks (and sorry) in advance!


----------



## ecwl

Hiker816 said:


> So, I'm excited to join the family after my recent purchase:
> 
> (Please excuse the cable mess).  When I first set it up, I plugged my ZMF VCs into the DAVE's headphone out.  To be honest, I was a little underwhelmed.  Then I moved to my SR1a's through the HSA-1b.  My immediate reaction was "Holy Sh!t!"  Very obvious why everyone raves about this DAC.
> 
> ...


Nice photo. I wonder what 192kHz track you’re listening to. I didn’t think there are many progressive rock/metal tracks out there in 192kHz. But I personally don’t own a lot of hi-res music.

Here’s an idiosyncrasy of the DAVE to remember for new owners… when you plug into the headphone jack, and if you set crossfeed to 1/2/3, the crossfeed setting stays when you unplug your headphone and goes to the HSA-1b via the RCA/XLR.


----------



## Hiker816

ecwl said:


> Nice photo. I wonder what 192kHz track you’re listening to. I didn’t think there are many progressive rock/metal tracks out there in 192kHz. But I personally don’t own a lot of hi-res music.
> 
> Here’s an idiosyncrasy of the DAVE to remember for new owners… when you plug into the headphone jack, and if you set crossfeed to 1/2/3, the crossfeed setting stays when you unplug your headphone and goes to the HSA-1b via the RCA/XLR.


Thanks!  Good to know about the crossfeed--appreciate the tip.  I think the 192kHz track was off the new Animals as Leaders album streamed from Amazon HD.  Could have been Syncatto or Night Verses, which I think also steam at that rate, though, and which I've also been listening to a lot lately.


----------



## Rob Watts

mat.1 said:


> Rob , is it ok to use XLR to RCA adapter on XLR output ( I need to try my balanced cable to output into RCA amp )



Yes - but - is the RCA input a balanced input or is it grounded? If it's grounded, make sure that that the RCA phono ground is connected to pin 1 on the XLR.  



Clive101 said:


> Similar question but RCA output to XLR input on a different device.



That depends upon how the XLR is wired on the amp. If it's a balanced input, connect XLR pins 1 and 3 to the RCA ground, and XLR pin 2 to the signal pin (the centre one on the RCA phono).



Reactcore said:


> I havent worked with the program.. only seen it on ocasion. Do component brands supply LCR values to load in e.g. Spice or does all need to be estimated? A side effect capacitance for a inductor can work in favor too.
> Or laying PCB tracks in ways to create impedances.



Active components (op-amps, bipolar transistors and FETs) often come with detailed and accurate SPICE models. Passive components can be modelled by taking the impedance plot of the component from the data sheet and creating internal LCR values to match that impedance plot. PCB tracks inductance and capacitance needs to be calculated then added to the SPICE model. If you are very careful, you can enjoy accurate agreement to hardware reality - plus you can see and understand effects that would not be measurable. So it's a very powerful and essential tool, if used with care.


----------



## mat.1 (Apr 19, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> Yes - but - is the RCA input a balanced input or is it grounded? If it's grounded, make sure that that the RCA phono ground is connected to pin 1 on the XLR.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Rob,
So its not the same like the TT2 , that i can not use XLR to RCA adapter ?
I like to try my balance cable from Dave to RCa input on Enleum 23R .


----------



## ecwl

Hiker816 said:


> Thanks!  Good to know about the crossfeed--appreciate the tip.  I think the 192kHz track was off the new Animals as Leaders album streamed from Amazon HD.  Could have been Syncatto or Night Verses, which I think also steam at that rate, though, and which I've also been listening to a lot lately.


So the reason why I was asking is that of the bands you listed, I can't find any 192kHz track or even 96kHz track available on HDtracks. So I strongly suspect Amazon Music HD is just upsampling the tracks to 192kHz due to a settings issue, or it is providing you upsampled MQA tracks. Except DAVE sounds its best when provided native source files because its upsampling algorithm is much better. Moreover, you definitely don't want your PC to upsample 44kHz tracks to 192kHz. I also find myself preferring playing MQA tracks without the MQA upsampling algorithm.
It is well-known that Amazon Music HD has lots of issues:
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/amazon-music-hd-is-still-lossy-r953/
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/update-amazon-music-hd-is-still-lossy-r961/
Often to get true lossless tracks, people in the US have to rely on Qobuz (because Tidal frequently only serves the MQA track). Now that you own the DAVE, it is probably best to start paying attention to whether you're streaming the original source file to the DAC to get the best sound.
One cheat you can do, if Qobuz doesn't have enough music that you normally listen to, is to get Tidal at the lowest tier of HiFi, instead of HiFi Plus because with DAVE, you don't want to upsample with MQA anyway so with HiFi, you'll always get the 44kHz or 48kHz track, either lossless or MQA.


----------



## zen87192 (Apr 19, 2022)

Is anyone using an alternative Power Supply for the DAVE? I’m not talking about the likes of a £7K Dean Jacobs ARC 6 but some other sort of LPS or supply that you have used and maybe felt you heard a difference? By the way…. Is there a Fuse inside the DAVE that can be perhaps replaced by an Orange or Purple? Please chime in with any info. Cheers! 🍻


----------



## Triode User

zen87192 said:


> Is anyone using an alternative Power Supply for the DAVE? I’m not talking about the likes of a £7K Dean Jacobs ARC 6 but some other sort of LPS or supply that you have used and maybe felt you heard a difference? By the way…. Is there a Fuse inside the DAVE that can be perhaps replaced by an Orange or Purple? Please chime in with any info. Cheers! 🍻


If you are ever anywhere near Melton Mowbray you are welcome to come and hear my Dave. Although it has a Sean Jacobs power supply that would give you some sort of reference to judge others.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Apr 19, 2022)

No fuse, i use three farad lps’s and a newly designed pcb board for inside the dave. Farad designed a true negative 15v lps for the dave. And the control board added some capacitors and control micro so no faulty voltage can enter the dave in any way. This is the final pcb board that inhave to install this week and make some installation photo’s for the manual. Last photo is still test pcb butt gives rough idea of position. Dc cables to dave board are silver and all shielded. Same as dc leads to the farad’s. Total around 3k euro. Ask price from farad to be exact.

In the farads i use the new purple fuse.


----------



## Hiker816

ecwl said:


> So the reason why I was asking is that of the bands you listed, I can't find any 192kHz track or even 96kHz track available on HDtracks. So I strongly suspect Amazon Music HD is just upsampling the tracks to 192kHz due to a settings issue, or it is providing you upsampled MQA tracks. Except DAVE sounds its best when provided native source files because its upsampling algorithm is much better. Moreover, you definitely don't want your PC to upsample 44kHz tracks to 192kHz. I also find myself preferring playing MQA tracks without the MQA upsampling algorithm.
> It is well-known that Amazon Music HD has lots of issues:
> https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/amazon-music-hd-is-still-lossy-r953/
> https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/update-amazon-music-hd-is-still-lossy-r961/
> ...


Thanks!  Don't want to cause too much thread drift, but you're right.  I thought I had the sampling rate sorted, but checked again on those tracks and I don't.  I'd been contemplating moving to Qobuz anyway but had been dragging my feet because we already had and will keep an Amazon HD family plan and that's the only potentially acceptable streaming source that will play in a car we have on the way.  But I may need to just bite the bullet and subscribe to Qobuz too.


----------



## SteveHulk

MvRBE10 said:


> No fuse, i use three farad lps’s and a newly designed pcb board for inside the dave. Farad designed a true negative 15v lps for the dave. And the control board added some capacitors and control micro so no faulty voltage can enter the dave in any way. This is the final pcb board that inhave to install this week and make some installation photo’s for the manual. Last photo is still test pcb butt gives rough idea of position. Dc cables to dave board are silver and all shielded. Same as dc leads to the farad’s. Total around 3k euro. Ask price from farad to be exact.
> 
> In the farads i use the new purple fuse.


Awesome. Those pictures just have me drooling. This is totally my summer project.


----------



## HeeBroG

Rob Watts said:


> Yes - but - is the RCA input a balanced input or is it grounded? If it's grounded, make sure that that the RCA phono ground is connected to pin 1 on the XLR.


This might be a silly question but is it common for RCA inputs on a power amp to be balanced? How would a consumer know if this is so?
I ask because I drive my bass unit amps via their RCA inputs from the XLR outputs of DAVE as that's the only input they have. I works but I am not entirely sure the cable I have has pin 1 on the XLR connected to ground. As the units only play up to 250Hz it all sounds a bit "muffled" for me to know if it is audibly correct.


----------



## Whazzzup

No it isn’t common


----------



## zen87192

oooooo... Hello DAVE!


----------



## zen87192

Wow! What have they done to the DAVE? I had a Silver one on loan from the store as there was a three month wait for a Black one. This arrived today. Yay! But.... the silver loaned Dave sounded somewhat weak in the Bass area. This new Black version is absolutely different and stunning. Pumping Bass much more than the 'silver loaner'. I'm also using Audeze LCD-5's which are not exactly known for their fantastic Bass delivery but on this new DAVE it's absolutely awesome! Absolutely no EQ needed. Which is great as I'm not a great EQ fan. Play on.... I'll update as I go. 🎧


----------



## maxh22

zen87192 said:


> Wow! What have they done to the DAVE? I had a Silver one on loan from the store as there was a three month wait for a Black one. This arrived today. Yay! But.... the silver loaned Dave sounded somewhat weak in the Bass area. This new Black version is absolutely different and stunning. Pumping Bass much more than the 'silver loaner'. I'm also using Audeze LCD-5's which are not exactly known for their fantastic Bass delivery but on this new DAVE it's absolutely awesome! Absolutely no EQ needed. Which is great as I'm not a great EQ fan. Play on.... I'll update as I go. 🎧


It’s true…. Black is known to sound better due to Chords new RF blocking black paint, it’s scientifically proven and wiffy approved 😌

Just kidding of course ..


----------



## alxw0w

Of course black one is darker sounding.
Silver is brighter with more air on top.
It's known among Dave's owners. 😆


----------



## zen87192

Other than the Black RF Blocking paint 🤣 and darker sounding due to the colour 🤣 something has definitely changed. My LCD-5's did not sound like that before.
I'm looking at different Headphone Amps to go with the DAVE and have sort of decided on the Ferrum oor and Hypsos combo. What's everyone's thoughts on that combo?


----------



## adrianm

zen87192 said:


> Other than the Black RF Blocking paint 🤣 and darker sounding due to the colour 🤣 something has definitely changed. My LCD-5's did not sound like that before.
> I'm looking at different Headphone Amps to go with the DAVE and have sort of decided on the Ferrum oor and Hypsos combo. What's everyone's thoughts on that combo?


I've been auditioning a Benchmark HPA4 for the past 2 days, and i regret believing the "pure sound out of Dave's HP out bs" for 2 years now.
    It's a huge upgrade even with easy to drive Elites. Would be more so with the LCD-5. To be fair, I think the biggest difference is actually the HPA4-s Pre-amp, since they are so easy to drive. 
     Direct to Dave sounds like a mushy tube amp compared to Dave in Dac mode + HPA4. All the traits are unchanged, just...distilled


----------



## zen87192 (Apr 20, 2022)

adrianm said:


> I've been auditioning a Benchmark HPA4 for the past 2 days, and i regret believing the "pure sound out of Dave's HP out bs" for 2 years now.
> It's a huge upgrade even with easy to drive Elites. Would be more so with the LCD-5. To be fair, I think the biggest difference is actually the HPA4-s Pre-amp, since they are so easy to drive.
> Direct to Dave sounds like a mushy tube amp compared to Dave in Dac mode + HPA4. All the traits are unchanged, just...distilled


Must admit HPA-4 was another good option. Also, GS-X Mini has been quotes as a great match. I'm currently running a Singxer SA-1 Head Amp to 'keep me going'. Its actually very good.


----------



## adrianm

zen87192 said:


> Must admit HPA-4 was another good option. Also, GS-X Mini has been quotes as a great match. I'm currently running a Singxer SA-1 Head Amp to 'keep me going'. Its actually very good.


Pro tip : you can still use Dave's pretty good crossfeed with an external amp, since it doesn't actually turn off in Dac mode  best of both worlds. CF on 1 with the HPA4 is just great. Much less fuzziness than going direct to Dave.


----------



## GryphonGuy

zen87192 said:


> Other than the Black RF Blocking paint 🤣 and darker sounding due to the colour 🤣 something has definitely changed. My LCD-5's did not sound like that before.
> I'm looking at different Headphone Amps to go with the DAVE and have sort of decided on the Ferrum oor and Hypsos combo. What's everyone's thoughts on that combo?



Maybe the crossfeed is not set to zero. Crossfeed setting other than zero adds bass (for some reason).

Unless you are trying to drive power-hungry headphones like Susvara, for example, DAVE's headphone output is simply divine and provides sublime audio. Just to cut off some adverse comments, a very small number of DAVE owners even publish that they like the Susvara from DAVE's headphone output.

There is no need for removal of transparency by adding a downstream headphone amp to DAVE. Try it first before potentially wasting more capital.


----------



## adrianm

GryphonGuy said:


> Maybe the crossfeed is not set to zero. Crossfeed setting other than zero adds bass (for some reason).
> 
> Unless you are trying to drive power-hungry headphones like Susvara, for example, DAVE's headphone output is simply divine and provides sublime audio. Just to cut off some adverse comments, a very small number of DAVE owners even publish that they like the Susvara from DAVE's headphone output.
> 
> There is no need for removal of transparency by adding a downstream headphone amp to DAVE. Try it first before potentially wasting more capital.


Have you actually tested this yourself? The susvara people have a MODIFIED Dave, with another psu. And even then, i am skeptical


----------



## number1sixerfan (Apr 21, 2022)

GryphonGuy said:


> There is no need for removal of transparency by adding a downstream headphone amp to DAVE. Try it first before potentially wasting more capital.



I would say it's extremely important to try both with and without an external amp with any hard to drive, expensive headphone so that you ensure you aren't wasting capital by under-powering and limiting the potential of a high priced headphone.

You don't need an uber expensive amp for this test either. Something as simple as a GSX-Mini, Benchmark HPA4, etc. should give a pretty good idea. I absolutely would not spend $4k on a pair of headphones without trying this out for my own ears. Cannot stress this enough.


----------



## GryphonGuy

adrianm said:


> Have you actually tested this yourself? The susvara people have a MODIFIED Dave, with another psu. And even then, i am skeptical



Yes I have tested this myself. I own a Headtrip II amp that I use in my professional audio setup. I tried it on my DAVE and did not like the result even after swapping many cables around, different power distribution etc. So it stays in the professional chain and is more than excellent there.

I don't own power-hungry headphones, so DAVE's headphone output on the ARC6 DC4 power supply is perfect for my home system.

Regards
GG


----------



## sm60

GryphonGuy said:


> Maybe the crossfeed is not set to zero. Crossfeed setting other than zero adds bass (for some reason).
> 
> Unless you are trying to drive power-hungry headphones like Susvara, for example, DAVE's headphone output is simply divine and provides sublime audio. Just to cut off some adverse comments, a very small number of DAVE owners even publish that they like the Susvara from DAVE's headphone output.
> 
> There is no need for removal of transparency by adding a downstream headphone amp to DAVE. Try it first before potentially wasting more capital.


This has certainly not been my experience using the Dave as a headphone amplifier with my Sennheiser 800S. I would characterize its sound simply as “meh”! Completely underwhelming compared even with a low end headphone amplifier like the Sony TA-ZH1ES, which runs rings around the Dave. I would characterize Dave’s headphone capability in the class of my Oppo 205 universal player or even the old classic Sony ES CD players that came with headphone outputs. Useful for someone like me who only very seldom listens to headphones because they are so colored sounding compared to my Quad electrostatics or Harbeth monitors. But if you’re a serious headphone listener, gosh, there are so many better headphone amplifiers out there, from Cavalli (solid state) to Woo Audio (tubes).


----------



## number1sixerfan (Apr 21, 2022)

sm60 said:


> This has certainly not been my experience using the Dave as a headphone amplifier with my Sennheiser 800S. I would characterize its sound simply as “meh”! Completely underwhelming compared even with a low end headphone amplifier like the Sony TA-ZH1ES, which runs rings around the Dave. I would characterize Dave’s headphone capability in the class of my Oppo 205 universal player or even the old classic Sony ES CD players that came with headphone outputs. Useful for someone like me who only very seldom listens to headphones because they are so colored sounding compared to my Quad electrostatics or Harbeth monitors. But if you’re a serious headphone listener, gosh, there are so many better headphone amplifiers out there, from Cavalli (solid state) to Woo Audio (tubes).



HD800(S) are very hard to drive properly. I've been very critical on this topic toward the Dave, mainly just to be as transparent and helpful to others as possible. But with low impedance headphones, I do have to say that it's pretty excellent. So much so that my end conclusion, after a TON of A/B comparisons with and without external amps, is that if it's relatively easy to power it's probably not worth it or needed to explore other amps. The only hard exception there for me is if it's with a headphone that it just inherently bright or offensive in the highs.

I have had amps pair better with some easily powered headphones, and maybe even performed better. In this case it can be a bit tough honestly to determine whether it's due to better amplification (which I'm totally sure is the case sometimes) or if it's mainly due to the added color and better pairing of some amps (which I'm also totally sure is the case sometimes). In either case, the difference is so slim that it's hard to justify adding an amp to the Dave. (unless also have harder to drive cans on hand also) 

But again, with harder to drive headphones (TC, Susvara, HD800 etc.), it is very easily a no brainer decision. Which is pretty much the consensus for most ppl that have actually tested and tried it.


----------



## 801evan

number1sixerfan said:


> HD800(S) are very hard to drive properly.


How is it hard to drive if it's 103dB sensitivity? It's actually a tuned headphone that needs 45ohms output impedance to get intended sound out of it more than any other factor.


----------



## number1sixerfan

801evan said:


> How is it hard to drive if it's 103dB sensitivity? It's actually a tuned headphone that needs 45ohms output impedance to get intended sound out of it more than any other factor.



That's why I said properly. But even that is probably too unclear. I should say subjectively, optimally. You can drive the HD800 audibly to deafening levels pretty easily. Which is also true for the Susvara to be quite frank. But like the Susvara, the HD800 or HD800S sounds its best (fullness of sound, solid low end and better dynamics) out of a high powered, high quality amp--and particularly, as noted multiple times this thread, amps that have higher quality and/or beefier PSUs. I've owned like 4 of them at this point with quite a few amps, most recently with the Dave and WA33.. and that's been pretty consistent. (keep in mind I adored the original HD800 for over a year out of an old budget Beresford TC DAC through it's low powered headphone amp long, long ago). 

If it were easy to drive optimally for most ppl, I don't think we'd have multiple amp threads dedicated here and in other forums specifically to it. But I can really only speak to my experience.


----------



## 801evan

number1sixerfan said:


> HD800(S) are very hard to drive properly. I've been very critical on this topic toward the Dave, mainly just to be as transparent and helpful to others as possible.


'critical towards the Dave'

Has nothing to do with the Dave but rather, specific parameters needed to be met FOR the 800s.



number1sixerfan said:


> But like the Susvara, the HD800 or HD800S sounds its best (fullness of sound, solid low end and better dynamics) out of a high powered, high quality amp--and particularly, as noted multiple times this thread, amps that have higher quality and/or beefier PSUs


None of these needs to a lot of power to a point of needing a big amp. Susvara and 800/s needs to be amped differently. But yes, both and all HP needs an amp with high quality power... but you can have high quality power on a low powered amp.


----------



## number1sixerfan (Apr 21, 2022)

801evan said:


> 'critical towards the Dave'
> 
> Has nothing to do with the Dave but rather, specific parameters needed to be met FOR the 800s.
> 
> ...



Again, to be powered to deafening db levels sure. That seems to be primarily what you care about (based on your posts on this topic), which is fine.. that's your concern and preference. To be powered optimally, (which is primarily what I and some others care about and continue to point out), almost everyone that has actually tested with and without over time (ownership) seem to strongly agree.

Also, we can drop the "big amp" requirement, as people that have simply upgraded their Dave with linear PSUs have described the exact performance differences I'm alluding to, (albeit to a lesser degree it seems than with full TOTL amps + Dave). In either case the feedback is overwhelmingly clear. But we can definitely agree to disagree--cannot stress enough that people should simply A/B for themselves.


----------



## sm60

number1sixerfan said:


> That's why I said properly. But even that is probably too unclear. I should say subjectively, optimally. You can drive the HD800 audibly to deafening levels pretty easily. Which is also true for the Susvara to be quite frank. But like the Susvara, the HD800 or HD800S sounds its best (fullness of sound, solid low end and better dynamics) out of a high powered, high quality amp--and particularly, as noted multiple times this thread, amps that have higher quality and/or beefier PSUs. I've owned like 4 of them at this point with quite a few amps, most recently with the Dave and WA33.. and that's been pretty consistent. (keep in mind I adored the original HD800 for over a year out of an old budget Beresford TC DAC through it's low powered headphone amp long, long ago).
> 
> If it were easy to drive optimally for most ppl, I don't think we'd have multiple amp threads dedicated here and in other forums specifically to it. But I can really only speak to my experience.


I agree. The issue is not loudness for sure. For lack of a better word, it’s composure. For example, my reference loudspeakers at home are Quad 2905s. They are fairly large electro stats, about 5’ tall and 2’ feet wide. Driving them is a challenge. They can sound overbearing with a typical solid state amplifier. Even Quad’s own current dumping amplifier, pioneered by Peter Walker 50 odd years ago, which combines a low powered class A amplifier with a higher powered coarser class B amplifier is not a great match. I finally found a good match with s huge Audio Research Reference 210 tube mono block with 8 KT 120 tubes per channel, a monster that produces a lot of heat. But I was not happy. The Ref 210s are fan cooled. I could hear the fan on really quiet passages. I tried a 1500 watt class D amplifier made by D Sonic. Sounds a bit sterile compared to the much heavier 200 watt ARC tube amp. 

Finally I struck gold. I tried a JJ 322 SET tube amplifier that uses 4 300B tubes to produce a measly 20 watts per channel. The JJ amp has a high quality ALPS potentiometer so I could bypass a preamp and go direct from my DAC. The JJ amp weighs almost 100 pounds. Ridiculous if you think it produces only 20 watts. But it sounds absolutely sublime with my Quad 2905s. I have heard nothing better after years of searching. The JJ SET amplifier uses no global feedback and runs much cooler than the ARC tube monoblocks. 

Clearly a 20 water is not going to produce a louder sound than 1500 watt class D amplifiers. No, I think it has to do with the simplicity of the circuit, intrinsic linearity of 300B tubes, the most linear amplification device ever built, and the crazy load electrostatics produce with bass impedances above 60 ohms and dropping to far lower values at high frequencies. 

I suspect the Sennheiser just presents a strange load the Dave does not do well at driving.


----------



## iDesign

How many manhours have been spent trying to fix the HD800, HD800 S, and HD 8XX? It is an imperfect headphone and I have bought and sold every version of it more times than anyone on Head-Fi and it’s gone for good.


----------



## Ciggavelli

iDesign said:


> How many manhours have been spent trying to fix the HD800, HD800 S, and HD 8XX? It is an imperfect headphone and I have bought and sold every version of it more times than anyone on Head-Fi and it’s gone for good.


You need tubes. It sounds great outta my wa33


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> You need tubes. It sounds great outta my wa33


Do you set it to low or high output impedance?


----------



## 801evan (Apr 22, 2022)

number1sixerfan said:


> Again, to be powered to deafening db levels sure. That seems to be primarily what you care about (based on your posts on this topic), which is fine.. that's your concern and preference. To be powered optimally, (which is primarily what I and some others care about and continue to point out),


To be powered loudly and to be powered optimally is two different things...  To power loudly, you need more power. To power optimally is amp design and better power quality. Case in point is the psu upgrade or using a line conditioner on the Dave improves headphone output but doesn't make it give more power output.

Check out the Passion for Sound video to understand how planar works and how the Chord dacs are sufficient. ❤️


----------



## iDesign

Ciggavelli said:


> You need tubes. It sounds great outta my wa33


Hardly. I owned many Eddie Current amplifiers including the Balancing Act, Zana Deux Super, and the much loved Black Widow II. The HD800 series is an imperfect headphone no matter the source— even with Sennheiser’s own HDV 820 which I have written enough about to fill a science reference volume.


----------



## sm60 (Apr 21, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> You need tubes. It sounds great outta my wa33


Yes, I suspect a Woo 33 or something like the Cavalli Liquid would work better. On a musical note, I’m listening to the sublime Sibelius Symphony 3 on my Quad 2905s with the JJ 300B amplifier. Sounds sublime. No, I can’t shake the room with bass. The Quads don’t do that. But they convey the beauty of Sibelius’ haunting Nordic melody better than most other louder speakers. Listen to the opening movement. Rapture in strings. Very powerful use of brass. Young conductor (Klaus Makela) at the top of his game with a great orchestra (Oslo Philharmonic) on Decca. Qobuz has the entire Sibelius symphonic cycle with this conductor in a 24-bit 96khz high Rez release. Highly recommended.


----------



## number1sixerfan

801evan said:


> To be powered loudly and to be powered optimally is two different things...  To power loudly, you need more power. To power optimally is amp design and better power quality.
> 
> Check out the Passion for Sound video to understand how planar works and how the Chord dacs are sufficient. ❤️



To power loud enough yes, you need *enough* power. To power optimally, everything you just said--which is exactly what I just said lol (high quality amp, high quality psu etc., although power/current are also inherently intertwined here). We are essentially saying the same thing. 

The Dave can power most loudly, but not all optimally. Almost all of us care about the latter for obvious reasons. When we say the Dave can't drive them, we absolutely aren't talking loudness.


----------



## sm60

iDesign said:


> How many manhours have been spent trying to fix the HD800, HD800 S, and HD 8XX? It is an imperfect headphone and I have bought and sold every version of it more times than anyone on Head-Fi and it’s gone for good.


I think the Sennheiser 800X is attractive for two reasons: it’s light and comfortable to wear for an extended period and it’s designed to project the sound in a way that’s unlike most typical headphones. I owned a pair of Audeze headphones. Wearing them was like medieval torture. My head felt like it was in a vice. 

The downside is that the Sennheiser 800X are tonally flawed. They’re lightweight in the bass and the high frequency can be overbearing. What the Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away, as the saying goes. If there’s a better sounding headphone that’s not as uncomfortable as the Audeze, that might be worth exploring. Though of trying a Stax 009S. But then driving them is again a huge challenge. The best electrostatic headphone amplifiers, like Blue Hawaii. are not cheap snd require a six to eight week preorder.


----------



## iDesign (Apr 22, 2022)

sm60 said:


> If there’s a better sounding headphone…


Focal Utopia.


----------



## 801evan

number1sixerfan said:


> The Dave can power most loudly, but not all optimally. Almost all of us care about the latter for obvious reasons. When we say the Dave can't drive them, we absolutely aren't talking loudness.


Resolved when using a line conditioner or psu upgrade. The former doesn't void warranty. The Dave is limited within it's form factor.

And while you said people care about powering optimally vs loudly, most upgrade recommendations is to buy a more powerful amp, not an amp with better power quality. Granted you made a disclaimer to get out of the "power quantity" mindset which is very helpful for education so that's good and goes back to the solution on my first paragraph.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> Resolved when using a line conditioner or psu upgrade. The former doesn't void warranty. The Dave is limited within it's form factor.
> 
> And while you said people care about powering optimally vs loudly, most upgrade recommendations is to buy a more powerful amp, not an amp with better power quality. Granted you made a disclaimer to get out of the "power quantity" mindset which is very helpful for education so that's good and goes back to the solution on my first paragraph.


It's "improved" , but can we just stop this circle of disinformation on this thread? No, there isn't some crystalline purity in connecting the headphones directly into the FPGA. It's decent enough, but not great. And I'd like to point out that Rob's comments were made while he was listening to some  Audioquest Nightowl headphones. He just recently got some decent headphones.


----------



## 801evan (Apr 22, 2022)

If some users are able to make a chain work, according to specs of the HP and the dac/amp and the designers said it can, then shouldn't we learn from those individual vs someone throwing money on a bigger, more powerful, more expensive device and how these factors are reason enough it'll make the chain sound better?

I am still contrarian to some of Rob's take on using his devices when I use my long USB chain to src dx and line conditioner, but it can make the dac and the amp stage really sing and on a Susvara where both amp and HP is congruent to published specs vs a 5w-60w  'solution' where those specs don't make sense when powering a Susvara that only needs 140mw to get to 101dB. Yes, let's acknowledge, it's not about the power quantity here but maybe one is paying 3k usd for the better power supply in that amp to push that <102mw beautifully, but for me that is not an efficient and effective way in problem solving.


----------



## adrianm

Some other famous claims that have been debunked :
    -Dave is immune to power
    -Dave is immune to source
    -The M-scaler is the greatest thing since toast

   That's why each of these things have created entire markets for improving Dave.

I really wish i had listened to @sm60  and @edwardsean 's old posts and gotten a headphone amp from the beginning, or at least bothered to test it myself back then. Would've saved myself 2 years of wasted time chasing minor improvements.
People can throw around Rob's famous "you like distortion" claim all they want. I do however disagree with @edwardsean  on one point:
     I can't speak for other amps, but the HPA4 makes direct to Dave sound distorted.  Dave Is thicker, but less clear, soundstage and imaging don't even compare, transients are also better on the HPA4, and this is with the famously easy to drive Meze Elite. So the argument that "certain headphones fare better with an external amp again falls flat.
    While i haven't had that much experience with it yet, the difference is staggering. A 3 day home audition convinced me to keep Dave around. I was really itching for a Bartok , but apparently Superman was hiding in plain sight all along, it was  Dave in dac mode  
    I'm not trying to convince anyone here (because hey, no one managed to convince me) , but I have spend 2 years testing for myself and for me, the only thing that makes Dave keep up with the times (or at least not sound like a narrow, blurry mess with the Elites) is Hqplayer, a good mains filter, and now the HPA4.
      The fact that the Headphone edition Bartok was discontinued also doesn't hurt. I've also considered getting the normal Bartok with the HPA4, but ironically, Rob's mistake turns out to be its best feature at the moment.
     Dcs didn't make this "mistake" with their "Expanse" (CF equivalent) feature.


----------



## alxw0w

adrianm said:


> Some other famous claims that have been debunked :
> -Dave is immune to power
> -Dave is immune to source
> -The M-scaler is the greatest thing since toast
> ...


How is the depth with hpa4? Isn't it degraded?
I tried couple of amps with THX technology from SMSL and drop and some other one i do t remember now. And they were ok, clean fast precise dynamic was probably better than from the Dave. But I couldn't stand collapsed depth of the soundstage. Also highs were somehow sharp brittle and thin.

I always wanted to try HPA4 just didn't have opportunity to. But this is the amp that I strongly want to listen with the Dave.


----------



## adrianm

alxw0w said:


> How is the depth with hpa4? Isn't it degraded?
> I tried couple of amps with THX technology from SMSL and drop and some other one i do t remember now. And they were ok, clean fast precise dynamic was probably better than from the Dave. But I couldn't stand collapsed depth of the soundstage. Also highs were somehow sharp brittle and thin.
> 
> I always wanted to try HPA4 just didn't have opportunity to. But this is the amp that I strongly want to listen with the Dave.


I've returned it for now, but buying it next week  Everything was much improved. Depth included. Breathed new life into Dave for me. And the pricing is so good, it feels like a bargain tbh. (compared to the Enleum at least, my other option)
   I am also using Hqplayer, so that has a big effect on the soundstage (Kinda like the M-scaler). I'm also driving it straight out my gaming pc (Gasp!), and so it might be that the noise  makes less of a difference when using a separate amp.
   Hoping to try an Innuos Phoenix as well soon to confirm. Or USB streamer. My SRC-DX is also on its way so i can further dissect what's happening later. I am curious to see what further effects upstream improvements make.


----------



## alxw0w

adrianm said:


> I've returned it for now, but buying it next week  Everything was much improved. Depth included. Breathed new life into Dave for me. And the pricing is so good, it feels like a bargain tbh. (compared to the Enleum at least, my other option)
> I am also using Hqplayer, so that has a big effect on the soundstage (Kinda like the M-scaler). I'm also driving it straight out my gaming pc (Gasp!), and so it might be that the noise  makes less of a difference when using a separate amp.
> Hoping to try an Innuos Phoenix as well soon to confirm. Or USB streamer. My SRC-DX is also on its way so i can further dissect what's happening later. I am curious to see what further effects upstream improvements make.


Did you use XLR from the Dave and XLR headphone out from hpa4?


----------



## stemiki

HPA4 is a great amplifier. Used for a few months connected to DAVE to drive TCs. At first I thought it was better than DAVE's headphone output. 
But after several tests, listening very carefully, I realized that the best sound was the one directed by DAVE. I think the improvement came after the addition of the M scaler, which by improving the sound (more precise and smoother) allows for better power delivery. A further improvement I had after powering both the M scaler and the streamer on battery. At -20dB of volume I have power and control. I hardly go beyond -10dB.


----------



## Arniesb

alxw0w said:


> How is the depth with hpa4? Isn't it degraded?
> I tried couple of amps with THX technology from SMSL and drop and some other one i do t remember now. And they were ok, clean fast precise dynamic was probably better than from the Dave. But I couldn't stand collapsed depth of the soundstage. Also highs were somehow sharp brittle and thin.
> 
> I always wanted to try HPA4 just didn't have opportunity to. But this is the amp that I strongly want to listen with the Dave.


What was the source being used with that setup?


----------



## alxw0w

Dave if by source you mean dac.
And it was connected via usb to the laptop.

I was visiting my brother in law, so I didn't have m scaler with me. Just Dave.


----------



## Arniesb

alxw0w said:


> Dave if by source you mean dac.
> And it was connected via usb to the laptop.
> 
> I was visiting my brother in law, so I didn't have m scaler with me. Just Dave.


You have to understand this. The higher the resolution of the setup the more weaknesses are highlighted*. Nastiness coming out of pc are highlighted in that setup instead of phenomenal depth. Now if you listen that same setup with something like Innuos Pheonix or even Usb out of a phone it would a major difference.
I have laptop and its a crap even on battery.
Devices with more thd like tubes appear to have more depth since it doesnt highlight weakness in the source as much.*


----------



## alxw0w

Just to clarify I'm talking about soundstage depth how far away voices/instruments are places in the sound field.

I'm saying this because 90% of the time when people are talking depth they say about body/weiight of the instruments/voices.
When sound is bold/dark/warm people think that's depth....

Anyway as I said at some point I'll definitely try HPA4.


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## ubs28 (Apr 22, 2022)

adrianm said:


> Some other famous claims that have been debunked :
> -Dave is immune to power
> -Dave is immune to source
> -The M-scaler is the greatest thing since toast
> ...



What type of interconnects were you using? If you are going to deal with an external amplifier, you basically need to spend an other $10.000 on interconnect cables.

With some cheap $400 interconnect cables, I also had a “bigger soundstage”, but it was all trickery. With $10.000 interconnect cables, the Chord Dave + Taurus MKII pretty much sounded the same as the Chord Dave standalone.

It’s all distortion what makes you think an amplifier is better really. As soon as you put in high quality components, the differences start disappearing.

Even my 16” M1 Max MacBook Pro drives headphones like the Sennheiser HD 650 and Sennheiser HD 800S without breaking a sweat. And that is a laptop.


----------



## BassicScience

ubs28 said:


> What type of interconnects were you using? If you are going to deal with an external amplifier, you basically need to spend an other $10.000 on interconnect cables.
> 
> With some cheap $400 interconnect cables, I also had a “bigger soundstage”, but it was all trickery. With $10.000 interconnect cables, the Chord Dave + Taurus MKII pretty much sounded the same as the Chord Dave standalone.
> 
> ...


This is simply nonsense. The Benchmark HPA4's THD is specified at 0.00006%. If you think you'd be able to perceive that amount of distortion in a blind test, let's make a wager on it. What is true is that the input of an amplifier (or preamp) is a *far easier* load for a DAC to drive than a headphone typically is. Therefore, using an amp in-between a DAC and a headphone (particularly one that's harder to drive) will often *improve *fidelity, not degrade it.

The idea that one needs to spend multiple thousands of dollars on interconnects to achieve accurate frequency response is also laughable.


----------



## adrianm (Apr 22, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> Did you use XLR from the Dave and XLR headphone out from hpa4?


I've tried both XLR and RCA between Dave and the Benchmark. XLR had a slight edge. Both were A . Charlin blue cables (800 euros-ish a pair) I plan on A/B-ing them against multiple price point cables, including the cheap recommended ones by Benchmark.


ubs28 said:


> What type of interconnects were you using? If you are going to deal with an external amplifier, you basically need to spend an other $10.000 on interconnect cables.
> 
> With some cheap $400 interconnect cables, I also had a “bigger soundstage”, but it was all trickery. With $10.000 interconnect cables, the Chord Dave + Taurus MKII pretty much sounded the same as the Chord Dave standalone.
> 
> ...


I've listened to 10k cables before, if you think those are "high quality" and matter more than electronics, i think we can save ourselves the time. I have no idea about the Taurus.  My comments were solely based on the Elites + HPA4 + Dave. The difference in clarity is so big i can make out words in lyrics that i've never been able to make out before. Must be the right kind of distortion  I don't know why people assume Dave is ( or should be) a world class Dac, preamp and amp at that price point. The principles are the same inside Dave, as well as for separate components. And quality interconnects help minimize signal loss, it's also not some magic.
    FWIW Benchmark specifically recommend cheap pro cables over audiophile ones. Can't wait for the shootout next week. For now i'm travelling with Dave


----------



## adrianm

alxw0w said:


> Just to clarify I'm talking about soundstage depth how far away voices/instruments are places in the sound field.
> 
> I'm saying this because 90% of the time when people are talking depth they say about body/weiight of the instruments/voices.
> When sound is bold/dark/warm people think that's depth....
> ...


 The people are already bringing out their pitchforks  so it's probably best you try it yourself  there is no downside I could find. Same old Dave, but improvements across the board. Bigger soundstage in width and depth, and not the blurry streched out image you sometimes get from optical for example. And i was a fan of optical for 2 years, before the Elites.
   The overall body/weight is actually a bit leaner than Dave itself. Initially I thought it's worse, however listening carefully, I could clearly pick out details and bass notes and make out lyrics I haven't before . Switching back to Dave it was more bass bloat and an overall...rounding of sounds? for lack of a better word.
    To me it's a clear increase in resolution. To be fair, i was using a cheap power cable with Dave, and Dave's power cable with the HPA4. But i don't find they make that much of a difference once you add a mains filter. Certainly not to the extent that i've heard. I'll have some more cables next week to see if it closes the gap, but i doubt it.
     If you have a speaker system, just do a quick test : Use Dave in Dac + pre vs Dac mode . Even to untrained ears, with an entry level system, the difference was very noticeable.


----------



## adrianm

alxw0w said:


> Did you use XLR from the Dave and XLR headphone out from hpa4?


Also, I used the same Meze silver plated cable in Single ended to compare Dave vs HPA4. After HPA4 won, I compared the  SE cable with the XLR version of it from Meze. So HPA4 6.3 vs XLR out, and XLR seemed  better still, quieter background with more clarity. I didn't even want to try it initially, because I was always skeptical about balanced connections over short distances, so that was a surprise.
   Unfortunately Meze won't replace my cable, even though i just got it, which is why I'm selling it to buy an XLR version.


----------



## zen87192

Speaking of Power.... all very well buying an SJ ARC 6 unit but can one/what happens if one just replaces the standard Mains Cable for one of the upgraded more expensive ones with perhaps an Orange/Purple Fuse inside?


----------



## adrianm

zen87192 said:


> Speaking of Power.... all very well buying an SJ ARC 6 unit but can one/what happens if one just replaces the standard Mains Cable for one of the upgraded more expensive ones with perhaps an Orange/Purple Fuse inside?


 What makes an expensive power cable improve the sound is the limited amount of filtering it does. A good mains filter is much better bang for buck. Cables will still sound slightly different , but not to that extent.


----------



## adrianm

sm60 said:


> Completely underwhelming compared even with a low end headphone amplifier like the Sony TA-ZH1ES, which runs rings around the Dave.


I've actually had the TA-ZH1ES right before Dave, and that was pretty much my experience using Z1R as well. The dac section more than made up for it though.


----------



## Ciggavelli

801evan said:


> Do you set it to low or high output impedance?


High output impedance and low gain


----------



## number1sixerfan

adrianm said:


> It's "improved" , but can we just stop this circle of disinformation on this thread? No, there isn't some crystalline purity in connecting the headphones directly into the FPGA. It's decent enough, but not great. And I'd like to point out that Rob's comments were made while he was listening to some  Audioquest Nightowl headphones. He just recently got some decent headphones.



This is the thing that is a bit frustrating to me. This topic shouldn't be this contentious, and it only is because of constantly pushed purist ideals and the self need to declare Dave alone as perfect or superior.. and so many ppl that push this narrative have not done extensive comparisons themselves.. I only continue to join the conversation each time because there's a lot of misinformation that can steer newer users wrong. It has honestly been good to see so much of this debunked in the past 15-20 pages. 




adrianm said:


> I really wish i had listened to @sm60  and @edwardsean 's old posts and gotten a headphone amp from the beginning, or at least bothered to test it myself back then. Would've saved myself 2 years of wasted time chasing minor improvements.
> People can throw around Rob's famous "you like distortion" claim all they want.



For easier to drive headphones, I think it's totally reasonable for someone that wants to be price conscious to assume they can be entirely satisfied directly out of Dave. Many will be and could even prefer if they did test out. For those looking to fully maximize their chain and end result, it just best to test for yourself--whether we're talking easier or harder to drive cans. 

I do also think it's important to mention that it's pretty disingenuous, or at the least the output of very poor analysis imo, to suggest that people simply enjoy color/distortion at the sake of transparency without the acknowledgement of the inversely associated leanness, lack of dynamic range and sufficient bass that stems from sub-optimal amplification. These are all aspects of overall sound with tradeoffs only an end user can decide for themselves, as you did.


----------



## GryphonGuy

zen87192 said:


> Speaking of Power.... all very well buying an SJ ARC 6 unit but can one/what happens if one just replaces the standard Mains Cable for one of the upgraded more expensive ones with perhaps an Orange/Purple Fuse inside?



A Shunyata Sigma power cable on Denali distribution was a nice upgrade for DAVE but the ARC 6 DC4 power is simply on another planet. The environment the ARC6 gives the DAVE listener is so great at producing small level signals on a quiet background that the depth of the soundstage (my meaning of depth is distance from the listening position forwards into the soundstage) is so wonderful that barely audible triangle hits can be placed by the brain to be metres away and be separated/isolated from the other sounds. Discrete really soft sounds are very audible and situated in the background. So better performance from power means DAVEs market strength is enhanced to another league entirely. Something you would expect from a Reference product (best that can be made at the time) and not one in the not-quite-reference choral range.

Regards
GG


----------



## sm60

BassicScience said:


> This is simply nonsense. The Benchmark HPA4's THD is specified at 0.00006%. If you think you'd be able to perceive that amount of distortion in a blind test, let's make a wager on it. What is true is that the input of an amplifier (or preamp) is a *far easier* load for a DAC to drive than a headphone typically is. Therefore, using an amp in-between a DAC and a headphone (particularly one that's harder to drive) will often *improve *fidelity, not degrade it.
> 
> The idea that one needs to spend multiple thousands of dollars on interconnects to achieve accurate frequency response is also laughable.


It’s worth pointing out again that there exists no headphone or speaker on Earth for any amount of money that even achieves CD red book 16 bit level  linearity, let alone higher resolutions like 24 bit or DSD 64-512.  Typical headphones give you perhaps 10 bits of resolution, if you are lucky (the best Stax achieve around 0.1% distortion in the midrange as do Quad electrostatics loudspeakers, and that distortion goes up considerably in the bass or at higher decibel levels). A 40 year old Sony ES CD player achieved nearly -96dB distortion levels, theoretically approaching redbook maximum linearity. Even the million dollar Magico made near my house will have at least 30dB worse distortion than redbook CD. 

In summary, whatever your preferences for using a headphone with or without Dave, I can assure you even the worst designed headphone amplifier has massively less distortion than the world’s best headphones or speakers. So, you should completely ignore distortion measurements as a guide. Once you factor in the fact that human hearing is massively nonlinear, because of the Fletcher Munson curves, our capacity to detect distortion is almost entirely of no consequence. We can and do tolerate 10% THD in the bass since we are largely oblivious to it. Further not all distortion is considered the same. Second order distortion is quite pleasing to the ear.


----------



## ubs28 (Apr 22, 2022)

BassicScience said:


> This is simply nonsense. The Benchmark HPA4's THD is specified at 0.00006%. If you think you'd be able to perceive that amount of distortion in a blind test, let's make a wager on it. What is true is that the input of an amplifier (or preamp) is a *far easier* load for a DAC to drive than a headphone typically is. Therefore, using an amp in-between a DAC and a headphone (particularly one that's harder to drive) will often *improve *fidelity, not degrade it.
> 
> The idea that one needs to spend multiple thousands of dollars on interconnects to achieve accurate frequency response is also laughable.



Did you take interconnect cables from those used from studio’s all the way up to $10000 and compared them?

If not, I see no point of your post as you have no experience on this subject.

Cables do downgrade the signal and you need to spend $10.000 to minimize the impact.

That is where the biggest difference between the Chord Dave versus Chord Dave + Taurus MKII was coming from. With $10.000 interconnect cables, both setups sound the same. With cheap interconnect cables, there was a significant difference..


----------



## Sampajanna

adrianm said:


> Some other famous claims that have been debunked :
> -Dave is immune to power
> -Dave is immune to source
> -The M-scaler is the greatest thing since toast


I I disagree that the Mscaler has been “debunked”. I find it incredible and necessary for streaming with Dave.


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> High output impedance and low gain


Thank you. There you go (for others). Needs high output impedance option than a lot of power.


----------



## 801evan (Apr 23, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> I I disagree that the Mscaler has been “debunked”. I find it incredible and necessary for streaming with Dave.


Mscaler was still better than HQplayer and pggb. And I already gave pggb and HQplayer unfair advantage by having it export the files and had it streamed on the zen stream. The only case HQplayer and pggb may sound better in my tests is with a lesser quality transport doing comparisons.


----------



## BassicScience

ubs28 said:


> Did you take interconnect cables from those used from studio’s all the way up to $10000 and compared them?
> 
> If not, I see no point of your post as you have no experience on this subject.
> 
> ...


No, the most expensive interconnects I've ever tested were only $9500, but I heard there's going to be a price increase later this year, so maybe they'll sound better then.


----------



## Currawong

alxw0w said:


> How is the depth with hpa4? Isn't it degraded?
> I tried couple of amps with THX technology from SMSL and drop and some other one i do t remember now. And they were ok, clean fast precise dynamic was probably better than from the Dave. But I couldn't stand collapsed depth of the soundstage. Also highs were somehow sharp brittle and thin.
> 
> I always wanted to try HPA4 just didn't have opportunity to. But this is the amp that I strongly want to listen with the Dave.



The cheap THX amps all have cheap, rubbish power supplies. The AAA 789, for example, had noticeably improved bass just adding a capacitor bank to the power supply!  I'm keen to try a HPA4 some time as it would be good to experience how the THX tech sounds when it done properly, and not just to get nice THD numbers.



BassicScience said:


> The Benchmark HPA4's THD is specified at 0.00006%.



And harmonic distortion isn't the only kind that exists in electronic circuits. Not to mention that you've posted a number without specifying anything at all about how it was obtained, a common way to hide a rigged measurement. I'm not saying that you, or Benchmark are, but making a point, that numbers such as this, by themselves, are meaningless.



number1sixerfan said:


> This topic shouldn't be this contentious, and it only is because of constantly pushed purist ideals and the self need to declare Dave alone as perfect or superior.. and so many ppl that push this narrative have not done extensive comparisons themselves..


The problem is that we're talking about an undefined, subjective idea of "better". The best you can say is that headphones sound vastly better to you out of the set-up you've built.

The truth, I think, lies somewhere in the middle. We know, for example, that a lot of people prefer amplification that has at least a small amount of harmonic distortion, and many people find that amps designed with super-low THD primarily, without other optimisations (such as the power supply issue with cheap THX-based amps) can sound thin and flat.

You can also have a super "rich" sound with a lot more harmonic distortion, often found in some tube amps, or similar resonances in headphones that make the sound more "full".  I observed, years back, that sometimes I preferred, say, the Focal Utopias direct out of a Hugo 2, for the maximum detail retrieval, yet sometimes I preferred the sound passing through the Studio Six tube amp, even if there was a slight loss of detail. The bigger bloom was nicer.   I explored this in a video here:



Ultimately, I don't believe that either preference is "wrong", except in that the idea of "properly driven" is sufficiently undefined as to be somewhat BS. It's really only just what sounds best to you.


----------



## ra990 (Apr 23, 2022)

ubs28 said:


> Cables do downgrade the signal and you need to spend $10.000 to minimize the impact.


Why do we always need to argue in such extremes? I'm not doubting your claim that you heard improved transparency because of better cables, but I'm laughing that you think $10k is what you need to spend for them.


----------



## crmiller

adrianm said:


> The fact that the Headphone edition Bartok was discontinued also doesn't hurt


Where did you see this? I’m not finding that announcement.


----------



## BassicScience

Currawong said:


> The cheap THX amps all have cheap, rubbish power supplies. The AAA 789, for example, had noticeably improved bass just adding a capacitor bank to the power supply!  I'm keen to try a HPA4 some time as it would be good to experience how the THX tech sounds when it done properly, and not just to get nice THD numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You have a valid point that IM distortion is typically more audible than harmonic distortion, and Benchmark doesn't specify that explicitly. It turns out that ASR measured the HPA4 and posted this:

_Note that the APx555 is in loopback mode with an internal connection from input to output.  The HPA4 involves multiple cables and active circuits in the HPA4.  So this has some penalty in noise when the input signal/voltage is lower.  *But once we get to 1 volt, the IMD measurement floors at the same level as my analyzer.  We cannot measure how good it is!*_

Furthermore, neither I nor Benchmark has any interest in "rigging" measurements. ASR posted this in regards to the HPA4's THD:

_Are your socks blown off as mine are?  *Second harmonic distortion is at an incredible -140 dB.  That is insanely good.  THD+N meter is running out of zeros to describe it as a percent!*  Going by SINAD version in dB, we have combination of noise and distortion that is at -120 dB.  With our best case hearing dynamic range of 116 dB, we are in absolute transparency department._

---------

All of this aside, my point was simply that when people put an amp between the DAVE and their headphones and hear a difference, they are not necessarily hearing sound that is *less transparent* than if the amplifier weren't there. This is due to the fact that *the fidelity of the output of the DAC is not independent of the load it is driving*! If the amplifier is better equipped to drive the headphones with lower distortion than the DAC is, adding the amp to the chain *may *result in more transparency (fidelity to the input data).


----------



## iDesign (Apr 23, 2022)

One of the things about the dCS Bartok that is compelling are the firmware upgrades— it’s something Chord should revisit across all their DACs and especially with the DAVE. With supply chain issues, economic uncertainty, and rapidly increasing complexity in device compatibility (white noise), it would be wise for Chord to think about offering firmware upgrades rather than a DAVE 2 and M Scaler X, Y, Z. It also would have a huge impact on customer loyalty, reducing the secondhand market, and it’s environmentally responsible. I’m still failing to see why the Mojo 2 exists considering the Mojo is largely the same exact platform. Firmware and component upgrades are certainly working for companies like dCS, PS Audio, Schiit and many others  because it’s the way forward.


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## number1sixerfan (Apr 23, 2022)

Currawong said:


> Ultimately, I don't believe that either preference is "wrong", except in that the idea of "properly driven" is sufficiently undefined as to be somewhat BS. It's really only just what sounds best to you.



I agree with most of the general sentiment of this point ... and especially in terms of there simply being no absolute or objective "best" or "right". But there's a bit of a sliding scale when it comes to subjectivity and adequate performance (specs needed and quality design). There's pretty much a general consensus on this site (especially outside of this thread), among those that have owned the Susvara and have tested both options.. that it needs an external amp. In this specific case, this has far less to do with preference and far more to do with a very sizable gap in performance based on what we know the Susvara is capable of. (I hate to use this example, I'm quite tired of the topic lol.. but it was the point of me using "properly driven" and "optimally" in the first place.)

I think most would agree that there's also a general consensus that the Dave "optimally" or "properly drives" low impedance, easier to drive headphones. So although everything is subjective and not all may agree, there are some things we can reasonably say have some level of "truth".


----------



## adrianm

iDesign said:


> One of the things about the dCS Bartok that is compelling are the firmware upgrades— it’s something Chord should revisit across all their DACs and especially with the DAVE. With supply chain issues, economic uncertainty, and rapidly increasing complexity in device compatibility (white noise), it would be wise for Chord to think about offering firmware upgrades rather than a DAVE 2 and M Scaler X, Y, Z. It also would have a huge impact on customer loyalty, reducing the secondhand market, and it’s environmentally responsible. I’m still failing to see why the Mojo 2 exists considering the Mojo is largely the same exact platform. Firmware and component upgrades are certainly working for companies like dCS, PS Audio, Schiit and many others  because it’s the way forward.


I get where you're coming from. Chord is not exactly leading the say in the software department, but i don't hold it against them. Good software is expensive  ,and i'd rather have top tier performance than a pretty interface. I have Roon for that.
   One of the things i love about my current setup, and why i wouldn't trade it for DCS stuff, is i can play with HQplayer/PGGB instead of DCS own filters for example, while still having the advantage to upsample to 768k instead of 384.
   Granted, you get what you pay for in terms of the upsampling experience, but to me it was clear to me since before buying Dave that with Chord you're paying for performance first of all.
    If i do buy the  new M-Scaler, i'd expect it not to need batteries or ferrites first of all.
   As for the Mojo 2, the so-claimed "lossless dsp" is interesting, I'd definitely want that on a future Dave. If only for a better CF implementation.


----------



## adrianm

sm60 said:


> It’s worth pointing out again that there exists no headphone or speaker on Earth for any amount of money that even achieves CD red book 16 bit level  linearity, let alone higher resolutions like 24 bit or DSD 64-512.  Typical headphones give you perhaps 10 bits of resolution, if you are lucky (the best Stax achieve around 0.1% distortion in the midrange as do Quad electrostatics loudspeakers, and that distortion goes up considerably in the bass or at higher decibel levels). A 40 year old Sony ES CD player achieved nearly -96dB distortion levels, theoretically approaching redbook maximum linearity. Even the million dollar Magico made near my house will have at least 30dB worse distortion than redbook CD.
> 
> In summary, whatever your preferences for using a headphone with or without Dave, I can assure you even the worst designed headphone amplifier has massively less distortion than the world’s best headphones or speakers. So, you should completely ignore distortion measurements as a guide. Once you factor in the fact that human hearing is massively nonlinear, because of the Fletcher Munson curves, our capacity to detect distortion is almost entirely of no consequence. We can and do tolerate 10% THD in the bass since we are largely oblivious to it. Further not all distortion is considered the same. Second order distortion is quite pleasing to the ear.


 You seem to be treating distortion as it's a linear thing that is only relevant up to the level of the weakest link. Why does the amp having less distortion than the transducer matter? To my mind, distortion adds up following an exponential growth model, like compound interest. 
    As for THD in the bass...switching from the Z1R to the Elite, one of the biggest areas of improvement was the bass, as now i can actually distinguish different bass notes, not just  <insert bass sound here>. And this is further improved when adding the HPA4 vs direct Dave. 
     If not reduced distortion, what would I attribute this improvement to? "Better bass"? People seem to love keeping the science and the romantic part of audio separate, but not draw any correlation. I get why the audio industry wants this, but with unaffiliated people, I don't understand it.
     And again, when I say improvement I mean objectively, when it's subjective, I clearly call it out.


----------



## iDesign

adrianm said:


> I get where you're coming from. Chord is not exactly leading the say in the software department, but i don't hold it against them. Good software is expensive  ,and i'd rather have top tier performance than a pretty interface. I have Roon for that.
> One of the things i love about my current setup, and why i wouldn't trade it for DCS stuff, is i can play with HQplayer/PGGB instead of DCS own filters for example, while still having the advantage to upsample to 768k instead of 384.
> Granted, you get what you pay for in terms of the upsampling experience, but to me it was clear to me since before buying Dave that with Chord you're paying for performance first of all.
> If i do buy the  new M-Scaler, i'd expect it not to need batteries or ferrites first of all.
> As for the Mojo 2, the so-claimed "lossless dsp" is interesting, I'd definitely want that on a future Dave. If only for a better CF implementation.


I'm not sure I fully understand your post. I'm quite sure most owners would rather have new features like the Mojo 2 DSP EQ and other features added to the DAVE via an affordable firmware update than to purchase a whole new future DAVE. With the pace of innovation, it is no longer reasonable to have electronic devices that cannot be updated. The updates can be monetized and it becomes a win win for Chord and owners.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> No, there isn't some crystalline purity in connecting the headphones directly into the FPGA





adrianm said:


> i can actually distinguish different bass notes, not just <insert bass sound here>. And this is further improved when adding the HPA4 vs direct Dave.
> If not reduced distortion, what would I attribute this improvement to? "Better bass"?


Both are relatable...

The only reason an external amp sounds better is because the external amp is using its own PSU. The Dave HP out has to share the same smps psu as the dac. So most of the improvement one is hearing from an external amp is the PSU, nothing else.  Okay, an external amp design with better noise rejection and slew rate can be 'better' but the bigger factor would be the psu.

That's why it's bringing back the subject of how there is nothing wrong with the HP output stage of the Dave, but the issue is the power quality driving that amp and we've been mentioning solutions to that.


----------



## adrianm

iDesign said:


> I'm not sure I fully understand your post. I'm quite sure most owners would rather have new features like the Mojo 2 DSP EQ and other features added to the DAVE via an affordable firmware update than to purchase a whole new future DAVE. With the pace of innovation, it is no longer reasonable to have electronic devices that cannot be updated. The updates can be monetized and it becomes a win win for Chord and owners.


I mean Dave is pretty limited from a software perspective. No filter options, etc. I agree with what you are saying, but Chord is more... Ferrari than Tesla. I also have doubts as to how much can actually be "improved" post design stage , except bug fixes. The biggest thing would be the WTA filter itself, like DCS do. The rest of the stuff would be more changes than actual improvements, so i don't think we're missing all that much. Keep in mind DCS is asking for 9000$ to upgrade a Rossini to the "Apex" version, and i expect hardware upgrade is where you'll see the actual improvement.


----------



## ubs28 (Apr 23, 2022)

ra990 said:


> Why do we always need to argue in such extremes? I'm not doubting your claim that you heard improved transparency because of better cables, but I'm laughing that you think $10k is what you need to spend for them.



That is what is based on my testing. "Hifi" cables in the $500 - $1000 range were really terrible. It was only at the highest levels where the difference between the Chord Dave versus Chord Dave + Taurus MK II started disappearing.

Now, you guys go ahead and grab your budget Van Hull interconnect cables and think the differences you hear must be coming from "power".

But what you guys fail to notice is, even laptops like the 16" M1 Max MacBook Pro drives "hard to drive" headphones like the Sennheiser HD 650 and HD 800S without any problems at all. So it's definitely not "power" what you guys are hearing, and the differences are most likely coming from the amplifier + interconnect cables.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> Both are relatable...
> 
> The only reason an external amp sounds better is because the external amp is using its own PSU. The Dave HP out has to share the same smps psu as the dac. So most of the improvement one is hearing from an external amp is the PSU, nothing else.  Okay, an external amp design with better noise rejection and slew rate can be 'better' but the bigger factor would be the psu.
> 
> That's why it's bringing back the subject of how there is nothing wrong with the HP output stage of the Dave, but the issue is the power quality driving that amp and we've been mentioning solutions to that.


I share your thinking up to a point, the PSU is definitely a weak point. However, i've recently A/B'd mine vs a Dave with a custom PSU (not SJ or Farad) that sounded MUCH better in (very expensive) 2 channel system, but considerably worse than my stock Dave in driving the Elites. 
    There was clearly a ton more noise, as soundstage was collapsed into a wall of sound. Everything else being the same. We just swapped Daves (They were also both black )
 So i am convinced that the HP out of Dave is more sensitive to the power quality, but i am skeptical PSU designers actually build them with this in mind, instead of improving overall performance in a speaker system. I know you like your tinkering ,but try to have an audition at one point. 
     Also, i suspect the pre-amp in the HPA4 might be the biggest upgrade in this case.  If I do decide to add an amp for "flavor" , I plan on keeping the HPA4 as a pre-amp, and will test out this hypothesis.


----------



## Articnoise

This constant debate about how much power it takes to power headphone X, and whether it sounds better with or without a separate amp can be amusing, but unfortunately too much of the same repeting debate has the opposite effect IMO.


----------



## adrianm

Articnoise said:


> This constant debate about how much power it takes to power headphone X, and whether it sounds better with or without a separate amp can be amusing, but unfortunately too much of the same repeting debate has the opposite effect IMO.


This is why i specifically mentioned this test was done with the easiest  to drive headphones, the Elites. So it's not about current/power. It's about overall quality, regardless of how much power they need.


----------



## adrianm

BassicScience said:


> You have a valid point that IM distortion is typically more audible than harmonic distortion, and Benchmark doesn't specify that explicitly. It turns out that ASR measured the HPA4 and posted this:
> 
> _Note that the APx555 is in loopback mode with an internal connection from input to output.  The HPA4 involves multiple cables and active circuits in the HPA4.  So this has some penalty in noise when the input signal/voltage is lower.  *But once we get to 1 volt, the IMD measurement floors at the same level as my analyzer.  We cannot measure how good it is!*_
> 
> ...


I'm not a fan of ASR , and i am surprised we finally agree on something . This is pretty much what I was hearing and trying to share with everyone.  I know it's a bold claim to make, but *IMO*:
*Paradoxically, Dave in Dac mode + HPA4 sounds to me more like "pure Dave" than direct to Dave does*. And i do now understand why others were saying Dave is a world class dac, but is let down by the HP out. 
   By the forum's own logic, if adding "thickness" and "weight" (considering extremely easy to drive headphones) is adding distortion, Dave's Hp out sounds distorted compared to the HPA4. So i think we can move past this argument. What you do get is a noticeable improvement in...everything: resolution, imaging and soundstage especially. 
    That said, i imagine people using tube amps won't be fans of the lack of second harmonic distortion. I would still try the HPA4 as a pre between a Dave and your amp, especially if it's not a balanced design.
     If others' findings mirror my own and bring them similar joy, great, if not, I'm curious what your impressions are


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## Reactcore (Apr 23, 2022)

iDesign said:


> I'm not sure I fully understand your post. I'm quite sure most owners would rather have new features like the Mojo 2 DSP EQ and other features added to the DAVE via an affordable firmware update than to purchase a whole new future DAVE. With the pace of innovation, it is no longer reasonable to have electronic devices that cannot be updated. The updates can be monetized and it becomes a win win for Chord and owners.



Oh i'm sure Chord can update Daves FPGA's
They only need to connect the programmer into the header in this hole (yellow arrow) and load Rob's latest WTA file 😄 ..i eat my shoes if he hasnt improved it further in the last 6 years.. if even for his own curiousity.. but it didnt got released to the public.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> However, i've recently A/B'd mine vs a Dave with a custom PSU (not SJ or Farad) that sounded MUCH better in (very expensive) 2 channel system, but considerably worse than my stock Dave in driving the Elites.
> There was clearly a ton more noise, as soundstage was collapsed into a wall of sound. Everything else being the same. We just swapped Daves (They were also both black )


This is vague as the custom PSU lacks some description for us to diagnose...and it sounding better on 2 channel while crap on Elite over stock lacks a lot of data to make a conclusion over it except that in the specific chain made, it made the loudspeaker setup good but the HP worse. Is Dave on usb or spdif? 

You have to mention the chain and what's going on the the psu. My latest custom psu brought more performance but along with it more noticeable noise on my HP setup, so I had to redesign the line conditioner and now it brings a wider, quieter,  faster yet more calming presentation.  Any psu upgrade I've done has improved the sound but also introduced some problems which is similar to what you are hearing on the elites. If I were to take a guess, what you have described is telltale of needing a cable upgrade on the Elite or heavier filtering on the psu upgrade. This is also why the loudspeaker sounds better because it's amplifier is externally powered while HP out is sharing power.


----------



## Arniesb

801evan said:


> Both are relatable...
> 
> The only reason an external amp sounds better is because the external amp is using its own PSU. The Dave HP out has to share the same smps psu as the dac. So most of the improvement one is hearing from an external amp is the PSU, nothing else.  Okay, an external amp design with better noise rejection and slew rate can be 'better' but the bigger factor would be the psu.
> 
> That's why it's bringing back the subject of how there is nothing wrong with the HP output stage of the Dave, but the issue is the power quality driving that amp and we've been mentioning solutions to that.


Golden measured Dave's amp and it is nothing to write about. Not only separate amps measure better, have real analog wollume controls and power supply is not shared for dac too.
Thing is guys here dont have their own opinion and just listen whatever designer are saying and they were proven wrong time and time again in the history.


----------



## 801evan

Arniesb said:


> Golden measured Dave's amp and it is nothing to write about. Not only separate amps measure better, have real analog wollume controls and power supply is not shared for dac too.
> Thing is guys here dont have their own opinion and just listen whatever designer are saying and they were proven wrong time and time again in the history.


Golden also has a new review where he said measurements aren't everything and it's not all about SINAD. 😉 otherwise it's just a decision between a Topping D90 DAC or a Tambaqui.


----------



## Arniesb

801evan said:


> Golden also has a new review where he said measurements aren't everything and it's not all about SINAD. 😉 otherwise it's just a decision between a Topping D90 DAC or a Tambaqui.


Yeah, but why say: Dave amp is most transparent 1! when its not. Less distortion means less coloration and more transparency... Some try external amps and they like it a lot more and some just repeat whatever manufacturers are saying like sheeps.


----------



## 801evan (Apr 23, 2022)

Arniesb said:


> Yeah, but why say: Dave amp is most transparent 1! when its not


Well you can claim that but don't pin it with how Goldensound measured it. The guy swings between objective and subjective to fit his narrative. He is the founder of Holo Audio owners group on fb even before he started releasing videos just to neg competing products and hype Holo audio. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️



Arniesb said:


> Some try external amps and they like it a lot more and some just repeat whatever manufacturers are saying like sheeps.


I've already explained this today. What people hear is mostly the difference in power supply quality if there is sonic gains.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> I've already explained this today. What people hear is mostly the difference in power supply quality if there is sonic gains.


This claim also requires proof, i agree it’s part of it, but i can’t agree that’s all there is to it


----------



## Arniesb

adrianm said:


> This claim also requires proof, i agree it’s part of it, but i can’t agree that’s all there is to it


Thats why we have to be open minded all the time. Guys with huge egos who think they know it all, wont achieve as much succes as they could if they stick to that superiority complex.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> This is vague as the custom PSU lacks some description for us to diagnose...and it sounding better on 2 channel while crap on Elite over stock lacks a lot of data to make a conclusion over it except that in the specific chain made, it made the loudspeaker setup good but the HP worse. Is Dave on usb or spdif?
> 
> You have to mention the chain and what's going on the the psu. My latest custom psu brought more performance but along with it more noticeable noise on my HP setup, so I had to redesign the line conditioner and now it brings a wider, quieter,  faster yet more calming presentation.  Any psu upgrade I've done has improved the sound but also introduced some problems which is similar to what you are hearing on the elites. If I were to take a guess, what you have described is telltale of needing a cable upgrade on the Elite or heavier filtering on the psu upgrade. This is also why the loudspeaker sounds better because it's amplifier is externally powered while HP out is sharing power.


The issues is most people don't want to go through everything you're going through. I actually like the silver plated upgrade cable on the Elite, i'm considering buying a second one in XLR.
    The chain was like 80k with a Chord Ultima Pre 2, an Ultima 5 Amp, I have no idea what speakers, and every audiophile treatment you can imagine for every component, including server, streamer and ethernet.


----------



## 801evan (Apr 23, 2022)

adrianm said:


> The issues is most people don't want to go through everything you're going through.


Now you are just moving goal posts. I've already said before that yes, the Dave sounded underwhelming on an unoptimized chain, but it can sound one of the best after some steps are done.



adrianm said:


> This claim also requires proof, i agree it’s part of it, but i can’t agree that’s all there is to it



After the tweaks that I've mentioned before, it isolated the issue that it is simply a psu situation. Your own test showed the DAC scaled with the psu upgrade and since the loudspeaker had its own power amp (and own PSU), the sound improved. Then I explained the possible issue why the Elite sounded worse, because each upgrade opens up a new issue because a new area of soundstage is revealed, and also reveals new areas to fix or improve. And I have experienced what you are saying and cable quality is one of the issues that brings that sound quality.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> Now you are just moving goal posts. I've already said before that yes, the Dave sounded underwhelming on an unoptimized chain, but it can sound one of the best after some steps are done.


I agree and I have been optimizing it for 2 years, however I have been losing  my patience, and the HPA4 is an upgrade with more impact than all of the things i've tried combined. Whether it negates the need for any other fixes remains to be seen. It will also probably be around for my next dac, since i'm done with all in ones.


801evan said:


> Then I explained the possible issue why the Elite sounded worse, because each upgrade opens up a new issue because a new area of soundstage is revealed, and also reveals new areas to fix or improve. And I have experienced what you are saying and cable quality is one of the issues that brings that sound quality.


You're overthinking this. The cable is clearly better quality than the stock one, as it sounds better on stock Dave. The custom psu wasn't some new level of ...anything. It just injected so much noise that it outweighed any improvements from the dac section apparent in the 2 channel system. Can you fix it with a lot of tinkering? Probably. Do i want to bother? Not really. Will it get to a point where it beats the HPA4? I can't see why, as there is more to Hi-fi than power supplies.


----------



## jlbrach

number1sixerfan said:


> That's why I said properly. But even that is probably too unclear. I should say subjectively, optimally. You can drive the HD800 audibly to deafening levels pretty easily. Which is also true for the Susvara to be quite frank. But like the Susvara, the HD800 or HD800S sounds its best (fullness of sound, solid low end and better dynamics) out of a high powered, high quality amp--and particularly, as noted multiple times this thread, amps that have higher quality and/or beefier PSUs. I've owned like 4 of them at this point with quite a few amps, most recently with the Dave and WA33.. and that's been pretty consistent. (keep in mind I adored the original HD800 for over a year out of an old budget Beresford TC DAC through it's low powered headphone amp long, long ago).
> 
> If it were easy to drive optimally for most ppl, I don't think we'd have multiple amp threads dedicated here and in other forums specifically to it. But I can really only speak to my experience.


my 2 cents...I own the susvara and owned the 800 and 800s...first off the 800 and susvara are simply not in the same conversation regarding efficiency...for me the susvara simply isnt feasible out of the dave alone while the 800 is...my problem with the 800 was its soundstage while very wide seemed artificial   to me...I found it hard to listen to....the susvara as an alternative isnt as wide but is much more natural and enjoyable...imho


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> The cable is clearly better quality than the stock one, as it sounds better on stock Dave. The custom psu wasn't some new level of ...anything. It just injected so much noise that it outweighed any improvements from the dac section apparent in the 2 channel system.



Dave has to be toasty with 24 hour warm up for me to even consider listening. Hope your test has that Dave unit warm and toasty on this audition.



adrianm said:


> HPA4 is an upgrade with more impact


Sure. I'm not saying it's worse. I'm saying that knocking the dac HP out is not accurate. Like the loudspeaker setup, the HPA 4 has its own PSU and it's better than the stock internal psu of the Dave.  So produces a net positive. It's one approach of many...but that doesn't mean the HP out of the Dave is inferior... it could only appear to be if chain isn't optimized.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> Dave has to be toasty with 24 hour warm up for me to even consider listening. Hope your test has that Dave unit warm and toasty on this audition.


I don't warm up Dave, i turn it off every night and turn it back on like 30 minutes before listening. I don't notice much of a difference. Where i do notice a difference is when my washing machine and dryer are turned on during listening. The mains filter helps. Still sounds better late at night. Old building, can't wait to move in a few months  


801evan said:


> So produces a net positive. It's one approach of many...but that doesn't mean the HP out of the Dave is inferior... it could only appear to be if chain isn't optimized.


Well agree to disagree here. For me it was enough of a difference to convince to always get a separate headphone amp. Even if i did get the Bartok/Rossini and i wasn't discontinued.


----------



## adrianm

crmiller said:


> Where did you see this? I’m not finding that announcement.


I've read hints of this on multiple forums, and a dealer told me last week they sold the literal last one out of the factory a few months back. I'm not 100% sure it's permanent though. They might just be focusing production on the more profitable products , as the wait time is now 3-4 months.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> I don't warm up Dave, i turn it off every night and turn it back on like 30 minutes before listening. I don't notice much of a difference.


Err there you go. It's frustrating to wait 24 hours but that is the situation with the Dave. And it gets super hot and I can't turn on the air conditioning coz it's obviously loud enough to interfer, but I also yank the plug on everything else during a session.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> Err there you go. It's frustrating to wait 24 hours but that is the situation with the Dave. And it gets super hot and I can't turn on the air conditioning coz it's obviously loud enough to interfer, but I also yank the plug on everything else during a session.


At least i don't have to spend 10k on cables.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> At least i don't have to spend 10k on cables.


It's my cheap/free dedicated mains approach too. Lol


----------



## number1sixerfan (Apr 23, 2022)

jlbrach said:


> my 2 cents...I own the susvara and owned the 800 and 800s...first off the 800 and susvara are simply not in the same conversation regarding efficiency...for me the susvara simply isnt feasible out of the dave alone while the 800 is...my problem with the 800 was its soundstage while very wide seemed artificial   to me...I found it hard to listen to....the susvara as an alternative isnt as wide but is much more natural and enjoyable...imho



I mentioned them both because most would agree they're "harder to drive" rather than "easier to drive". Could've used the TC or anything similar, which also isn't in the same category as the Susvara, but generally harder to drive to full potential. I forget how much of a like/hate relationship people (justifiably) have with the HD800 or (s), should've stayed away entirely lol



801evan said:


> Err there you go. It's frustrating to wait 24 hours but that is the situation with the Dave. And it gets super hot and I can't turn on the air conditioning coz it's obviously loud enough to interfer, but I also yank the plug on everything else during a session.








Also, the Dave barely gets warm to the touch. I leave mine on 24/7.


----------



## 801evan (Apr 23, 2022)

number1sixerfan said:


> Also, the Dave doesn't get warm to the touch. I leave mine on 24/7.


Imma be contrarian on that one. If 10 mins is the warm-up and judge it from there, then I wouldn't recommend the Dave/ DAVE HP output. I do and will agree that with usb,.okay source and straight from wall, 10 mins may seems like the only warm up time required and it doesn't improve from thereon. But with my chain, 24 hour minimum.


----------



## SteveHulk

At the risk of getting my own head blown off in this crossfire I'll stick it above the parapet.

I've read here that the DAVE stock SMPS is a $40 part that is used to power medical devices. I've also read here (I think written by Rob Watts but correct me if not) that the amplifier stage in the DAVE is "two capacitors and two op amps in the signal path" and nothing else. This was said, I believe, to emphasise the line that the DAVE drives headphones properly. 

So we have a situation where an amp built from such components is being compared to dedicated amplifiers with highly-specified PSU and gain stages which can be extremely expensive.

Is this discussion about whether the medical device PSU plus the caps and op amps really competes with specialised headphone amps designed for the purpose?

My take up to now was that the DAVE is really a pure DAC and that the preamp and HP out capability was there to make the purchase less painful in the sense that a new DAVE purchaser could unbox it, plonk it on a table, plug in headphones and have music without any extra expense at the time. However, if the true potential of the DAVE DAC technology was to be realised the user would have to move on from that.


----------



## 801evan

SteveHulk said:


> At the risk of getting my own head blown off in this crossfire I'll stick it above the parapet.
> 
> I've read here that the DAVE stock SMPS is a $40 part that is used to power medical devices. I've also read here (I think written by Rob Watts but correct me if not) that the amplifier stage in the DAVE is "two capacitors and two op amps in the signal path" and nothing else. This was said, I believe, to emphasise the line that the DAVE drives headphones properly.
> 
> ...


Fair point to consider


----------



## adrianm

SteveHulk said:


> Is this discussion about whether the medical device PSU plus the caps and op amps really competes with specialised headphone amps designed for the purpose?


That pretty much sums it up.


SteveHulk said:


> However, if the true potential of the DAVE DAC technology was to be realised the user would have to move on from that.


And this is pretty much my conclusion. Adding that  for the folks that want to keep the sound signature unchanged, and just enhance everything else, the HPA4 is worth auditioning.


----------



## MvRBE10

SteveHulk said:


> At the risk of getting my own head blown off in this crossfire I'll stick it above the parapet.
> 
> I've read here that the DAVE stock SMPS is a $40 part that is used to power medical devices. I've also read here (I think written by Rob Watts but correct me if not) that the amplifier stage in the DAVE is "two capacitors and two op amps in the signal path" and nothing else. This was said, I believe, to emphasise the line that the DAVE drives headphones properly.
> 
> ...


You are bang on, i bought a hp utopia for testing the dave and lps’s upgrade i started with farad, and to be honest i cannot find big differences with the hp besides a bit more bass. On the other hand on my two way speaker system the difference are enormous, depth, stage, bass tonality etc etc… there the dave is a dac. And as adrian is doing with adding an amp is a bit like creating the same setup as two way system. I an not reallly into headphones so addng an amplifier was a step to far for me but i understand adrians findings. He probably now with the amp the gain will be better if he adds a better lps. But as with everything we have to be ready to go to the next step and little steps are the fun of what we are doing.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

...more like14 bucks (smps). Retail. Small quantity.


----------



## iDesign (Apr 23, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> At the risk of getting my own head blown off in this crossfire I'll stick it above the parapet.
> 
> I've read here that the DAVE stock SMPS is a $40 part that is used to power medical devices. I've also read here (I think written by Rob Watts but correct me if not) that the amplifier stage in the DAVE is "two capacitors and two op amps in the signal path" and nothing else. This was said, I believe, to emphasise the line that the DAVE drives headphones properly.
> 
> ...


Exactly. It’s not like Rob Watts didn’t include outputs for owners to use whatever pre/amplifiers they prefer and it seems Head-Fi members forget it wasn’t conceived solely for use with headphones. And as I’ve said before, how many of the headphones in question like the Susvara were released years after the DAVE? If you bought an inefficient headphone to use with the DAVE, that’s on you.


----------



## zen87192

801evan said:


> Dave has to be toasty with 24 hour warm up for me to even consider listening. Hope your test has that Dave unit warm and toasty on this audition.


Would that be on as in ON in Stand-by or with it actually ON with the display active as well?


----------



## GryphonGuy

DAVE's toasty heat comes from its onboard power supply. With external power, the case is barely even warm to the touch with its right side being marginally warmer than its left side.

I have found that there are nuances of differences in some music in the first 10 minutes or so but certainly after the first 20 minutes DAVE is rock solid in its audio presentation.

However, my DAVE is on 24/7 these days (unless thunder storms are very near) so is rock solid and unwavering from the outset.

Regards
GG


----------



## crmiller

adrianm said:


> I've read hints of this on multiple forums, and a dealer told me last week they sold the literal last one out of the factory a few months back. I'm not 100% sure it's permanent though. They might just be focusing production on the more profitable products , as the wait time is now 3-4 months.



Ah, I see. I have read lots of rumors, mostly as fallout to the botched APEX announcement, but you stated it so definitively. I think, at least in the USA, the sales model for the Bartok has changed as now we have some other retailers selling the Headphone amp model, but nothing else from dCS. Lead times with dCS are long anyway. I bought my Bartok last summer and it was at least 8 weeks, long enough I ordered and received a Linn streamer/DAC before it arrived.


----------



## Triode User

zen87192 said:


> Would that be on as in ON in Stand-by or with it actually ON with the display active as well?





GryphonGuy said:


> DAVE's toasty heat comes from its onboard power supply. With external power, the case is barely even warm to the touch with its right side being marginally warmer than its left side.
> 
> I have found that there are nuances of differences in some music in the first 10 minutes or so but certainly after the first 20 minutes DAVE is rock solid in its audio presentation.
> 
> ...



I do find that even with an external PS the Dave can get warmer depending on what input signal it is processing. 

My Dave is left switched on (ON, not in STANDBY) 24/7 but the display is always on Display 4 so that switches off after a short period.


----------



## adrianm (Apr 24, 2022)

crmiller said:


> but you stated it so definitively


That's the official reply from the dealer, but I don't know him, and our entire conversation was centered around him telling me not to throw my money away on an expensive dac if i'm going to be using headphones. So mixed signals.


crmiller said:


> mostly as fallout to the botched APEX announcement


What was botched about it? The fact that the board won't fit in the Headphone edition? It's not available for the regular Bartok either.


----------



## ubs28 (Apr 24, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> You are bang on, i bought a hp utopia for testing the dave and lps’s upgrade i started with farad, and to be honest i cannot find big differences with the hp besides a bit more bass. On the other hand on my two way speaker system the difference are enormous, depth, stage, bass tonality etc etc… there the dave is a dac. And as adrian is doing with adding an amp is a bit like creating the same setup as two way system. I an not reallly into headphones so addng an amplifier was a step to far for me but i understand adrians findings. He probably now with the amp the gain will be better if he adds a better lps. But as with everything we have to be ready to go to the next step and little steps are the fun of what we are doing.



Except, this guy is doing an unnecessary double output, introducing an additional output stage which is not needed. It is not like the internal output stage is replaced by that of the external amplifier. If you are using crappy B&W speakers which are a pain to drive, then it makes sense to introduce an additional amp stage.

And really, my 16" M1 Max MacBook Pro drives headphones like the Sennheiser HD 650 and Sennheiser HD 800S fine just to show what kind of snake oil headphone amplifiers are. We are talking about milliWatts here, that is basically nothing.


----------



## adrianm

ubs28 said:


> Except, this guy is doing an unnecessary double output, introducing an additional output stage which is not needed. It is not like the internal output stage is replaced by that of the external amplifier. If you are using crappy B&W speakers which are a pain to drive, then it makes sense to introduce an additional amp stage.
> 
> And really, my 16" M1 Max MacBook Pro drives headphones like the Sennheiser HD 650 and Sennheiser HD 800S fine just to show what kind of snake oil headphone amplifiers are. We are talking about milliWatts here, that is basically nothing.


  That's how all dacs work, not just Dave, so what you're saying is completely irrelevant. It's about how well the low level signal is amplified past that output stage. That's why Chord is selling 15k pre-amps and 100k amps. I've done my testing and drew my own conclusions on both accounts. 
    You're free to believe what you'd like, but what baffles me is that you actually believe electronics are snake oil and 10k cables are not.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Apr 24, 2022)

ubs28 said:


> Except, this guy is doing an unnecessary double output, introducing an additional output stage which is not needed. It is not like the internal output stage is replaced by that of the external amplifier. If you are using crappy B&W speakers which are a pain to drive, then it makes sense to introduce an additional amp stage.
> 
> And really, my 16" M1 Max MacBook Pro drives headphones like the Sennheiser HD 650 and Sennheiser HD 800S fine just to show what kind of snake oil headphone amplifiers are. We are talking about milliWatts here, that is basically nothing.


Indeed i put my dave out direct into my monoamp. Tried a pre but that only adds more distortion and coloration. Maybe a 15k cable will up my system instead of my poormans 800,- rca and wave storm cables.


----------



## adrianm

MvRBE10 said:


> Tried a pre but that only adds more distortion and coloration.


Well again, that depends on the pre. I was only talkin about the benchmark, which was measured not to add any distortion to the only analyzer capable of measuring Dave accurately. So you should  be safe


----------



## MvRBE10

adrianm said:


> Well again, that depends on the pre. I was only talkin about the benchmark, which was measured not to add any distortion to the only analyzer capable of measuring Dave accurately. So you should  be safe


Indeed i am only talking about my setup. Noticed by listening with others it all depends on so much factors and synergy.


----------



## GryphonGuy

ubs28 said:


> Except, this guy is doing an unnecessary double output, introducing an additional output stage which is not needed. It is not like the internal output stage is replaced by that of the external amplifier. If you are using crappy B&W speakers which are a pain to drive, then it makes sense to introduce an additional amp stage.
> 
> And really, my 16" M1 Max MacBook Pro drives headphones like the Sennheiser HD 650 and Sennheiser HD 800S fine just to show what kind of snake oil headphone amplifiers are. We are talking about milliWatts here, that is basically nothing.



WOW. Both funny and sad at the same time. 

Both the speaker brand and headphone brand you mention can be driven less than optimally by almost any amplifier and you may enjoy the sound they produce under those conditions. However, B&W speakers love to be driven by class-A amplifiers, the more "instant" power the better. The higher power available to a B&W speaker brings greater control which in turn gives a rock-solid soundstage with tighter sonics, thus enhancing the soundstage presentation if they are positioned well for the listening position and the room.

Many years ago I took my Sennheiser HD650 headphones to a HiFi shop to listen to as a reference for some new headphones I wanted to audition. The shop had a brand of high-powered class-A headphone amplifier that I cannot recall what brand it was now but the sound from the HD650's was so good, I wanted to buy my own HD650 again as I heard that same tightness of presentation etc that I described with the B&W's above. Those auditions on that high-end headphone amplifier forever changed my perception of how a headphone can produce sound. So good headphone amplifiers can drive these high-resistance headphones, like Sennheiser, much better (more realistically sounding) than a low powered device, although those low powered devices tickle the headphones into producing a sound of sorts that some people find acceptable. I know I did until I made that decision to listen to equipment that I could not afford. 7 or 8 years later and much audio education and experience under my belt and that itch has been scratched.

Regards
GG


----------



## crmiller

Apologies for the topic drift, folks.



adrianm said:


> That's the official reply from the dealer, but I don't know him, and our entire conversation was centered around him telling me not to throw my money away on an expensive dac if i'm going to be using headphones. So mixed signals.



I sort of wonder if that sort of attitude is why, at least in the USA, dCS has changed their marketing approach to allow the Bartok Headphone model to be sold by headphone centric online retailers. My dCS dealer didn’t seem to know anything about headphones and at first didn’t quite know what to do with me inquiring about a Bartok for that purpose. They did have one on the demo floor, though. So I spent some hours with it (and my headphones) before ordering.



adrianm said:


> What was botched about it? The fact that the board won't fit in the Headphone edition? It's not available for the regular Bartok either.



No, not that. The way info got out about APEX wasn’t managed well. The name and rumors about pricing were out close to a month before there was any info about what it even was. dCS wouldn’t even acknowledge the leaks. So in an information vacuum the rumors took over and I don’t recall any of them being accurate. Worse, when dCS did announce, it was piecemeal with like a week between additional bits of info, and so more rumors. I’m not offended that APEX isn’t available for Bartok, but they really need to get a handle on their communications. I’ll point to Linn as an alternative example. They seem to assume that nothing will stay secret (it doesn’t) and approach accordingly.


----------



## ubs28 (Apr 25, 2022)

GryphonGuy said:


> WOW. Both funny and sad at the same time.
> 
> Both the speaker brand and headphone brand you mention can be driven less than optimally by almost any amplifier and you may enjoy the sound they produce under those conditions. However, B&W speakers love to be driven by class-A amplifiers, the more "instant" power the better. The higher power available to a B&W speaker brings greater control which in turn gives a rock-solid soundstage with tighter sonics, thus enhancing the soundstage presentation if they are positioned well for the listening position and the room.
> 
> ...



B&W sounds crap. I never heard B&W speakers sound good except when we tested it on a $250.000 system. We also had respresentives of B&W listen to our setup and they also said they never heard their own speakers sound this good.

Funny thing is, you can buy a budget speaker system for $15k (unless recent inflation changed the price) using only a $3k receiver (without using an external amplifier) that sounds better than a $50k B&W setup, that is how bad B&W are.  B&W is the most overrated brand I have ever heard.

Well, my 16” M1 Max MacBook Pro can drive these “high-resistance headphones” without a single problem too. You don’t need a big expensive headphone amplifier for that.


----------



## 801evan

ubs28 said:


> that is how bad B&W are. B&W is the most overrated brand I have ever heard.


A bad carpenter blames the chair


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## ubs28 (Apr 25, 2022)

801evan said:


> A bad carpenter blames the chair



I guess you never really heard how good speakers sound like if you think B&W is good. And have fun spending big money on amplifiers with B&W speakers, because they sound bad without it.


----------



## nwavesailor

Tough crowd in here today........and I have not heard B&W's


----------



## Progisus

Shout out for B&W


----------



## GryphonGuy

If I bought my system again from new it would cost me around $250,000. So glad that the solution is only money and why my B&W 802 diamonds sound good even today with 400 watt per channel class-A amplification.


----------



## jlbrach

ubs28 said:


> I guess you never really heard how good speakers sound like if you think B&W is good. And have fun spending big money on amplifiers with B&W speakers, because they sound bad without it.


B&W speakers are outstanding...cut it out


----------



## sm60

jlbrach said:


> B&W speakers are outstanding...cut it out


I would never characterize B&W 800 series  as “crap”. If you do, you don’t understand what these statement products are all about.

I owned for many years the mammoth B&W 800 Nautilus speakers that each weighed almost 300 pounds each, and the later 800 Diamond series 1. These are heroically built highly demanding speakers that are intended for studio use (e.g., Abbey Road Studios has long used the stouter smaller 801 series). The sonic profile of studio speakers is very different from typical home audio speakers. B&W 800s that I owned were quite flat in their response from around 30 Hz to well over 20 KHz. They can take up to 1000 watts of undistorted amplification producing 120 dB loudness at modest distortion levels.  Needless to say, this is well beyond what you need in even a large room. I had a very large listening room snd I drove these with an ultra massive Krell 700CX, the best solid state amplifier I have ever heard. The 800s are picky: they do not take kindly to tubes, and the huge woofers takes a lot of current to control.  They can sound awful if driven by a poor amplifier. 

I sold all these when I moved to the Bay Area, much to my regret. But the newer 800 series are not the same. They weigh much less and are far less neutral, having been engineered with a rising top. I would not like the newer ones. 

I think if I went down this road again, I would get  a JBL Everest 6700, which weighs about 330 pounds each and can produce bone rattling levels of 130 dB with very low levels of distortion. But again these are studio speakers not intended for home use. They reveal every sonic wart in a recording, and are unflinchingly honest, even merciless. They are like a microscope. I prefer warmer sounding speakers these days — I’d rather not hear all the mistakes made by a recording engineer.


----------



## Sampajanna (Apr 25, 2022)

This thread seems to have opened the door under the bridge…. New B&W are a bit (tad) warmer. As with all speakers, they need the right gear and to be set up properly. When they are, they sound great. “B&W are all crap” is flat-out trolling. Have you heard every speaker they make? With every combination of gear? What kind of hubris would prompt such a silly opinion posited so strongly as though it were truth? To me that is the definition of trolling.


----------



## sm60

Sampajanna said:


> This thread seems to have opened the door under the bridge…. New B&W are a bit (tad) warmer. As with all speakers, they need the right gear and to be set up properly. When they are, they sound great. “B&W are all crap” is flat-out trolling. Have you heard every speaker they make? With every combination of gear? What kind of hubris would prompt such a silly opinion posited so strongly as though it were truth? To me that is the definition of trolling.


Just to amplify this point, I’m listening right now to a legendary live jazz recording — Gerry Mulligan Live at the Village Vanguard — on a pair of Harbeth Monitor 40.1s, with the source being CD on the Blu Mk2 and the Dave.  The Harbeth’s are also a studio monitor made expressly for the BBC. They could not sound more different from the B&W 800s and are designed using entirely different principles. The large B&Ws have a highly rigid cabinet with a separate marble like Marlan  head housing the midrange and tweeter. The Harbeth uses a highly lossy resonant wooden chassis intended to partially absorb the sound, and the resonances are designed to be at frequencies that are not particularly noticeable. The Harbeth sounds like the B&W with the tweeter removed, a far warmer sound. Which is right? Neither and both. There’s no right snd no wrong here. Different design choices and principles. Vastly different sound signatures. 

I’m driving the Harbeth with flea market $200 Crown pro amplifiers, which produce 200 watts a channel and weigh 10 pounds. I picked them up Guitar Etc., a pro music chain store 5 years back as I needed amplifiers with Speakon connectors. The Harbeth’s sound fine with such flea market amplifiers. The large B&W 800s would sound dreadful on the el cheapo Crown’s.


----------



## chesebert (Apr 25, 2022)

sm60 said:


> Just to amplify this point, I’m listening right now to a legendary live jazz recording — Gerry Mulligan Live at the Village Vanguard — on a pair of Harbeth Monitor 40.1s, with the source being CD on the Blu Mk2 and the Dave.  The Harbeth’s are also a studio monitor made expressly for the BBC. They could not sound more different from the B&W 800s and are designed using entirely different principles. The large B&Ws have a highly rigid cabinet with a separate marble like Marlan  head housing the midrange and tweeter. The Harbeth uses a highly lossy resonant wooden chassis intended to partially absorb the sound, and the resonances are designed to be at frequencies that are not particularly noticeable. The Harbeth sounds like the B&W with the tweeter removed, a far warmer sound. Which is right? Neither and both. There’s no right snd no wrong here. Different design choices and principles. Vastly different sound signatures.
> 
> I’m driving the Harbeth with flea market $200 Crown pro amplifiers, which produce 200 watts a channel and weigh 10 pounds. I picked them up Guitar Etc., a pro music chain store 5 years back as I needed amplifiers with Speakon connectors. The Harbeth’s sound fine with such flea market amplifiers. The large B&W 800s would sound dreadful on the el cheapo Crown’s.


In Bay Area with big enough space for 40.1? Well done!

I am guessing a nice pair of Pass Labs monoblocks (or similar quality amp) is in the works?


----------



## sm60

chesebert said:


> In Bay Area with big enough space for 40.1? Well done!
> 
> I am guessing a nice pair of Pass Labs monoblocks (or similar quality amp) is in the works?


I live in Morgan Hill, a lovely wine country with gentle rolling hills like the English countryside 15 miles south of San Jose, right off of US 101. Lucky enough to own a 3500 sq ft house, bought before the current housing boom. My house has now escalated in value by a huge  amount, thanks to the pandemic making remote work a reality. Have been working from home for the past two years! Nice not to have to fight the Bay Area traffic.  

If you are ever in the area, I highly recommend Guglielmo winery, a mile from my house. Their red wines are anazing (Cabernet Sauvignon, Petite Syrah, Zinfandel). Perfect for listening to the Dave after a long day’s work. Something about red wine that makes music more enjoyable. Attached picture showing Castillo winery, about 2 miles from my house. Lovely area to jog in. I run 5 miles very morning past wineries, horse farms etc .


----------



## Hifi Boy

sm60 said:


> I live in Morgan Hill, a lovely wine country with gentle rolling hills like the English countryside 15 miles south of San Jose, right off of US 101. Lucky enough to own a 3500 sq ft house, bought before the current housing boom. My house has now escalated in value by a huge  amount, thanks to the pandemic making remote work a reality. Have been working from home for the past two years! Nice not to have to fight the Bay Area traffic.
> 
> If you are ever in the area, I highly recommend Guglielmo winery, a mile from my house. Their red wines are anazing (Cabernet Sauvignon, Petite Syrah, Zinfandel). Perfect for listening to the Dave after a long day’s work. Something about red wine that makes music more enjoyable. Attached picture showing Castillo winery, about 2 miles from my house. Lovely area to jog in. I run 5 miles very morning past wineries, horse farms etc .


Absolutely incredible property, thanks for posting this.

Imagine the listening room(s) you could set up in there!


----------



## Sampajanna

sm60 said:


> Just to amplify this point, I’m listening right now to a legendary live jazz recording — Gerry Mulligan Live at the Village Vanguard — on a pair of Harbeth Monitor 40.1s, with the source being CD on the Blu Mk2 and the Dave.  The Harbeth’s are also a studio monitor made expressly for the BBC. They could not sound more different from the B&W 800s and are designed using entirely different principles. The large B&Ws have a highly rigid cabinet with a separate marble like Marlan  head housing the midrange and tweeter. The Harbeth uses a highly lossy resonant wooden chassis intended to partially absorb the sound, and the resonances are designed to be at frequencies that are not particularly noticeable. The Harbeth sounds like the B&W with the tweeter removed, a far warmer sound. Which is right? Neither and both. There’s no right snd no wrong here. Different design choices and principles. Vastly different sound signatures.
> 
> I’m driving the Harbeth with flea market $200 Crown pro amplifiers, which produce 200 watts a channel and weigh 10 pounds. I picked them up Guitar Etc., a pro music chain store 5 years back as I needed amplifiers with Speakon connectors. The Harbeth’s sound fine with such flea market amplifiers. The large B&W 800s would sound dreadful on the el cheapo Crown’s.


I love Harbeth. The Ls53a are also great. I really enjoy Harbeth speakers—in every setting I have heard them.


----------



## Malcyg

Surely, this is not a real thing?? 🤔 😉

https://hifi-opinions.com/en/audiophilia-nervosa-2/


----------



## alxw0w (Apr 27, 2022)

Currently I have Hugo TT2 next to Dave to compare.
Oh boy, I don't know what sorcery is in the Dave but what this thing can extract from the music cannot be described.

Unfortunately I'm in a "tough" situation in my life (a lot of expenses that are very important) and I might end selling Dave - as I'm going to need $
Decision is not made yet. I'll decide in the next 2-3 days. I can say one it's going to be hard


----------



## Triode User

alxw0w said:


> Currently I have Hugo TT2 next to Dave to compare.
> Oh boy, I don't know what sorcery is in the Dave but what this thing can extract from the music cannot be described.
> 
> Unfortunately I'm in a "tough" situation in my life (a lot of expenses that are very important) and I might end selling Dave - as I'm going to need $
> Decision is not made yet. I'll decide in the next 2-3 days. I can say one it's going to be hard


Oh, I do feel for you. The worst thing is having heard the difference. For me comparing side by side with the TT2 it was the Dave transparency that was miles ahead of the TT2. 

But at the end of the day they are just boxes and sometimes real life expenses are more important.


----------



## alxw0w

Triode User said:


> TT2 it was the Dave transparency that was miles ahead of the TT2.


Its scary to say but TT2 feels muddy and congested in comparison.
Also Dave bass definition is on a whole new level. TT2 is focused on mid bass never reaches as deep and tight as Dave goes into very very low sub bass (20hz or so)

Anyway as you said these are only boxes. I'll be back


----------



## adrianm

alxw0w said:


> Its scary to say but TT2 feels muddy and congested in comparison.


As does stock Dave vs M-scaler, and that vs Hqplayer (just got the SRC-DX and holy crap this thing is awesome). And THAT vs Dave + HPA4. 
    I hate Dave for many upgrades can be done, and love it for how well it scales.


----------



## Triode User

alxw0w said:


> Its scary to say but TT2 feels muddy and congested in comparison.
> Also Dave bass definition is on a whole new level. TT2 is focused on mid bass never reaches as deep and tight as Dave goes into very very low sub bass (20hz or so)
> 
> Anyway as you said these are only boxes. I'll be back


I wasn’t going to make your pain worse so I avoided mentioning the muddy and congested comparison to Dave! 

I often quote “Comparison is the thief of joy” but it is very true and ‘putting up’ with the TT2 is hardly a hardship in the great scheme of things.


----------



## zen87192

DAVE (DAC Mode) through a Singxer SA-1 Headphone Amp playing out to Audeze LCD-5 Headphones is absolutely brilliant! The SA-1 scores highly in tests and this shows in how it sounds. It doesn't hide anything and adds nothing to the sound signature. It produces sounds that are sublime. I can't imagine what a more expensive Headphone Amp could do but hope to sample an HeadAmp HPA-4 and Ferrum oor with HYPSOS if I can soon to see what differences there are. I'm even playing from a Fiio M17 DAP source through the DAVE but have purchased a Silent Angel M1T Streamer with F1 LPS which is en route to me now. This may.... or may not.... be even better through the DAVE than the Fiio M17 DAP. We shall see. I will try direct USB into the DAVE and then via USB in to an SRC-DX then in to BNC in to the DAVE. Exciting times ahead.


----------



## JTbbb

zen87192 said:


> DAVE (DAC Mode) through a Singxer SA-1 Headphone Amp playing out to Audeze LCD-5 Headphones is absolutely brilliant! The SA-1 scores highly in tests and this shows in how it sounds. It doesn't hide anything and adds nothing to the sound signature. It produces sounds that are sublime. I can't imagine what a more expensive Headphone Amp could do but hope to sample an HeadAmp HPA-4 and Ferrum oor with HYPSOS if I can soon to see what differences there are. I'm even playing from a Fiio M17 DAP source through the DAVE but have purchased a Silent Angel M1T Streamer with F1 LPS which is en route to me now. This may.... or may not.... be even better through the DAVE than the Fiio M17 DAP. We shall see. I will try direct USB into the DAVE and then via USB in to an SRC-DX then in to BNC in to the DAVE. Exciting times ahead.


I am certain that Rob Watts has stated in these pages that in DAC or DIGITAL-PRE mode, the signal goes through the exact same circuitry.


----------



## saudio7

JTbbb said:


> I am certain that Rob Watts has stated in these pages that in DAC or DIGITAL-PRE mode, the signal goes through the exact same circuitry.


And that is just software setting of fix volume -3dB, instead of regulated one -3dB, which are the same.


----------



## zen87192

JTbbb said:


> I am certain that Rob Watts has stated in these pages that in DAC or DIGITAL-PRE mode, the signal goes through the exact same circuitry.


Just wanted to experiment with different types of connections to the DAVE.


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## adrianm (Apr 27, 2022)

saudio7 said:


> And that is just software setting of fix volume -3dB, instead of regulated one -3dB, which are the same.


Dac mode sounded better to me, and other people,  everywhere i tested it, including now. Is there any link to this post?
Edit : nvm found some posts.


----------



## zen87192

adrianm said:


> Dac mode sounded better to me, and other people,  everywhere i tested it, including now. Is there any link to this post?
> Edit : nvm found some posts.


DAC Mode sounded pure. Brilliant. PRE Mode sounded slightly harsh.


----------



## adrianm

zen87192 said:


> DAC Mode sounded pure. Brilliant. PRE Mode sounded slightly harsh.


That's what i also found. Apparently there is a difference 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hug...nics-the-official-thread.879425/post-15483588


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## JTbbb (Apr 27, 2022)

adrianm said:


> That's what i also found. Apparently there is a difference
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hug...nics-the-official-thread.879425/post-15483588


Not sure they are discussing the same thing. But hey, you may be right.

And that was TT2


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> Dac mode sounded better to me, and other people,  everywhere i tested it, including now. Is there any link to this post?
> Edit : nvm found some posts.


I think it is pretty well established that DAC mode in the Dave is nothing more or less than a fixed output version of the Pre Amp mode. The only way one can sound different is if the Pre Amp mode volume is not carefully set to be the same output volume as is DAC mode and even then the only difference is that one is louder than the other.

Hence this is why I never use DAC mode even when I am taking the Dave through a pre amp or an integrated amp with its own volume control. I just set Dave to output the most appropriate level depending on the gain of the preamp / amp I am using.


----------



## Reactcore (Apr 27, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> Its scary to say but TT2 feels muddy and congested in comparison.
> Also Dave bass definition is on a whole new level. TT2 is focused on mid bass never reaches as deep and tight as Dave goes into very very low sub bass (20hz or so)
> 
> Anyway as you said these are only boxes. I'll be back



Were you comparing to get a TT2 in exchange for the time being? That would leave only a few grand in your hands assuming TT2 is new..

Well im just on a 2 week holliday and took only my old AK120 & HD800 with me.. im listening now as i write.. as i used this combo for many years dispite of others saying 'youre nuts.. this cant drive those cans'  i still hear why i used it so long: Dual Wolfson DAC chips on battery.
I can pass my time with it😄


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> I think it is pretty well established that DAC mode in the Dave is nothing more or less than a fixed output version of the Pre Amp mode. The only way one can sound different is if the Pre Amp mode volume is not carefully set to be the same output volume as is DAC mode and even then the only difference is that one is louder than the other.
> 
> Hence this is why I never use DAC mode even when I am taking the Dave through a pre amp or an integrated amp with its own volume control. I just set Dave to output the most appropriate level depending on the gain of the preamp / amp I am using.


Thanks, this helps in testing the HPA4 a second time before pulling the trigger. 
     To be honest, @801evan might have been on to something when saying if you fix your power and your source, the gap narrows. 
 Adding the SRC-DX this afternoon made a huge difference, so much so that it's not really worth bothering with the HPA4.
   Good call


----------



## alxw0w

Reactcore said:


> Were you comparing to get a TT2 in exchange for the time being? That would leave only a few grand in your hands assuming TT2 is new..
> 
> Well im just on a 2 week holliday and took only my old AK120 & HD800 with me.. im listening now as i write.. as i used this combo for many years dispite of others saying 'youre nuts.. this cant drive those cans'  i still hear why i used it so long: Dual Wolfson DAC chips on battery.
> I can pass my time with it😄


I traded lcd5s for TT2.
So it's like "free"


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## Reactcore

alxw0w said:


> I traded lcd5s for TT2.
> So it's like "free"


Good1! 

I see prices of electronics in general are going up these days 2nd hands included.

Can you detect benefits in TT2's amp next to Daves? 

Im playing with the idea to place Super caps on the power rails in Dave's amp section.
Like i did in Qutest too


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## alxw0w (Apr 27, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> Good1!
> 
> I see prices of electronics in general are going up these days 2nd hands included.
> 
> ...


As for power goes.
Yes and no.
Depends on the track and especially loudness level.

On some complex tracks with bass heavy notes and higher volumes you can hear that Dave loses it. Sound hardens and soundstage somehow collapses a bit.
But that's on volume above my normal listening level.

Also TT2 on some music like electronica feels more dynamic.

The thing with the Dave is because bass is never muddy and never bloated and fully controlled people sees that as no driving power etc... Which is false.

Funny thing happens when you listen new album of Eric Clapton.
There are track with heavy low bass notes.
On TT2 mid bass just takes it over. On Dave there is less mid bass but more subbas.
The whole presentation is just much different.
Timbre of Dave is completely different than TT2.
There is more much more variability in instruments.

Still I can see how some people might prefer TT2 as it makes all music sound warmer mushier (yes I know it sounds crazy but I'm sure many Dave owners will agree in comparison to TT2). It's more forgiving.
Makes all your music sounds nice.
But I'm not here to make my music nice.
I don't want to listen nice gear.
I want to listen music not gear - if you know what I mean.

Also when it comes do depth width and clarity Dave is THE dac.


----------



## ZappaMan

alxw0w said:


> Its scary to say but TT2 feels muddy and congested in comparison.
> Also Dave bass definition is on a whole new level. TT2 is focused on mid bass never reaches as deep and tight as Dave goes into very very low sub bass (20hz or so)
> 
> Anyway as you said these are only boxes. I'll be back


I get a lot of enjoyment out of mojo, at my desk, 8 hours a day. You don’t need a Dave to be happy at it.


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## alxw0w

ZappaMan said:


> I get a lot of enjoyment out of mojo, at my desk, 8 hours a day. You don’t need a Dave to be happy at it.


Of course 
I've never said that you cannot.
I have 2 channel system that is nowhere close to even mojo when it comes to sound class. Still I'm enjoying it.
As well as my akg371 with shanling dac which I use with my PC.


----------



## saudio7

adrianm said:


> Dac mode sounded better to me, and other people,  everywhere i tested it, including now. Is there any link to this post?
> Edit : nvm found some posts.


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-203#post-12586759


----------



## jlbrach

Malcyg said:


> Surely, this is not a real thing?? 🤔 😉
> 
> https://hifi-opinions.com/en/audiophilia-nervosa-2/


one of those parodies that have a bit of truth


----------



## jlbrach

adrianm said:


> That's what i also found. Apparently there is a difference
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hug...nics-the-official-thread.879425/post-15483588


the only difference is the ability to vary it from say -3 to -6 which I use with my abyss TC..otherwise there is no difference between how you arrive at -3


----------



## Rob Watts

Triode User said:


> I think it is pretty well established that DAC mode in the Dave is nothing more or less than a fixed output version of the Pre Amp mode. The only way one can sound different is if the Pre Amp mode volume is not carefully set to be the same output volume as is DAC mode and even then the only difference is that one is louder than the other.
> 
> Hence this is why I never use DAC mode even when I am taking the Dave through a pre amp or an integrated amp with its own volume control. I just set Dave to output the most appropriate level depending on the gain of the preamp / amp I am using.



Absolutely correct. DAC mode is completely identical to pre-amp mode - it's just fixed to -3dB. So setting pre-amp mode to -3dB will give absolutely identical performance to DAC mode.


----------



## Triode User

Rob Watts said:


> Absolutely correct. DAC mode is completely identical to pre-amp mode - it's just fixed to -3dB. So setting pre-amp mode to -3dB will give absolutely identical performance to DAC mode.


Thanks for confirming. It seems to pop up on a regular basis that users claim they hear a difference between DAC mode and Pre Amp mode so it is good to lay this one to rest.


----------



## alxw0w

Triode User said:


> users claim they hear a difference between DAC mode and Pre Amp mode so it is good to lay this one to rest.


That's why I always read people impressions with pinch of salt - or I should rather say bag not a pinch.
Same goes to these so called reviewers from all over the internet.


----------



## Clive101

Could it be, if using an external amp (with volume low) with Dave at volume high that Dave sounds better..... as Dave performs better at higher volume vs an external amp with high volume and Dave at low volume ?
In other words is Dave is better at "Volume Control" ?


----------



## Malcyg

jlbrach said:


> one of those parodies that have a bit of truth



I had a mixture of indignation and humour when I read it. Mainly, quite funny though.


----------



## SteveHulk

Malcyg said:


> I had a mixture of indignation and humour when I read it. Mainly, quite funny though.


I was wondering when the suggestion would come that you should wrap the m scalar in tinfoil connected separately to earth, and maybe the DAVE as well.

What's left of the tinfoil would make a nice hat.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> Adding the SRC-DX this afternoon made a huge difference, so much so that it's not really worth bothering with the HPA4.


Add sorbothanes and it'll kick it up a new level.


----------



## Articnoise

Triode User said:


> Thanks for confirming. It seems to pop up on a regular basis that users claim they hear a difference between DAC mode and Pre Amp mode so it is good to lay this one to rest.


If you bypass the volume control, it will sounds better.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> Add sorbothanes and it'll kick it up a new level.


I just finished work and started testing again just to make sure i'm not crazy. I still think that the HPA4 is completely transparent, and has a very slightly bigger/deeper soundstage, but the delta is just too small to justify it with the Elites. I hope the Enleum or some higher end amps can provide a bigger uplift.
   Where the hell do i get them and how do i use them ? You mean anti-vibration treatment below Dave/Src-DX i assume.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> I just finished work and started testing again just to make sure i'm not crazy. I still think that the HPA4 is completely transparent, and has a very slightly bigger/deeper soundstage, but the delta is just too small to justify it with the Elites. I hope the Enleum or some higher end amps can provide a bigger uplift.
> Where the hell do i get them and how do i use them ? You mean anti-vibration treatment below Dave/Src-DX i assume.


https://www.isolateit.com/products/...ere-rubber-bumper-non-skid-feet-with-adhesive

3x duro 30. I think this and Dave is better than without sorbo + hpa4. But I dunno how it'll be with sorbothanes + Dave + hp4.

While you're at it, get more for other components but u need to know the load to get the right sorbothane for it


----------



## Triode User

Articnoise said:


> If you bypass the volume control, it will sounds better.


Will or _might_? 

RW has explained the way he designed Dave digital volume control and I am pretty sure he made a case for why it does not affect sound quality.

And anyway, the whole point of this exchange is that merely putting the Dave into DAC Mode does *not* bypass the Dave volume control. 

Or are you suggesting getting out your soldering iron and altering the Dave to achieve what you are suggesting?


----------



## Articnoise

Triode User said:


> Will or _might_?
> 
> RW has explained the way he designed Dave digital volume control and I am pretty sure he made a case for why it does not affect sound quality.
> 
> ...


Will


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> Will or _might_?
> 
> RW has explained the way he designed Dave digital volume control and I am pretty sure he made a case for why it does not affect sound quality.
> 
> ...


Daniel Weiss also claims his digital volume control does not affect sound quality, and people who have heard his dac tends to disagree, including reviewers.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> https://www.isolateit.com/products/...ere-rubber-bumper-non-skid-feet-with-adhesive
> 
> 3x duro 30. I think this and Dave is better than without sorbo + hpa4. But I dunno how it'll be with sorbothanes + Dave + hp4.
> 
> While you're at it, get more for other components but u need to know the load to get the right sorbothane for it


 I'm pretty sure they don't deliver to Europe.


----------



## adrianm

Also , just want to put it out there that, while i was skeptical, the SRC-DX amazing


----------



## alxw0w

adrianm said:


> I just finished work and started testing again just to make sure i'm not crazy. I still think that the HPA4 is completely transparent, and has a very slightly bigger/deeper soundstage, but the delta is just too small to justify it with the Elites. I hope the Enleum or some higher end amps can provide a bigger uplift.
> Where the hell do i get them and how do i use them ? You mean anti-vibration treatment below Dave/Src-DX i assume.


Dave is the dac. You won't gain anything with additional amps. (If the headphones are properly driven)
Don't try to find something to match Dave. You won't. I think only hpa4 can. As you need just wire with gain nothing else.


----------



## Lgn3

Rob Watts said:


> Absolutely correct. DAC mode is completely identical to pre-amp mode - it's just fixed to -3dB. So setting pre-amp mode to -3dB will give absolutely identical performance to DAC mode.


If the two modes had been described as fixed volume (FVOL) and variable volume (VVOL) on the display I wonder if listeners would still have been convinced one sounded better than the other.


----------



## adrianm

Lgn3 said:


> If the two modes had been described as fixed volume (FVOL) and variable volume (VVOL) on the display I wonder if listeners would still have been convinced one sounded better than the other.


I was at a party with 3 people, using speakers, and we were all startled by the change, after listening to it for 40 minutes in Pre mode. No one was reading Dave's display. If the volume difference was the only thing that changed that added perceived clarity, fair enough, I can maybe believe that. But thinking everything is induced placebo is kind of ridiculous.
   Not everyone reads or cares what forums say.


----------



## miketlse

SteveHulk said:


> I was wondering when the suggestion would come that you should wrap the m scalar in tinfoil connected separately to earth, and maybe the DAVE as well.
> 
> What's left of the tinfoil would make a nice hat.


I could make a comment about blocking heat transfer, but not RFI


----------



## Icenine2

I'm getting Audio-itch and thinking about a DAVE in place of my HugoTT2. I own DCS Stealth and not sure about headphone section being enough but maybe that is just audio grumbling. Thanks


----------



## ra990

adrianm said:


> I was at a party with 3 people, using speakers, and we were all startled by the change, after listening to it for 40 minutes in Pre mode. No one was reading Dave's display. If the volume difference was the only thing that changed that added perceived clarity, fair enough, I can maybe believe that. But thinking everything is induced placebo is kind of ridiculous.
> Not everyone reads or cares what forums say.


If simply switching from variable to fixed volume gave you a startling change, then something else was up. That change should be so subtle that it would be near undetectable, and if you believe the designer, no change at all. Maybe you bumped up the volume by changing to DAC mode, that would explain a startling change that 3 people noticed.


----------



## adrianm

ra990 said:


> If simply switching from variable to fixed volume gave you a startling change, then something else was up. That change should be so subtle that it would be near undetectable, and if you believe the designer, no change at all. Maybe you bumped up the volume by changing to DAC mode, that would explain a startling change that 3 people noticed.


Could be, was the first time using Dave with speakers (not my setup), had no bias or expectation either way, just wanted to see if there is a difference. Still not really invested enough to investigate more. Dave + SRC-DX sounds so good I'm not really interested in experimenting anymore. I can still recommend the HPA4, whether it's the pre or the amp that makes a difference, but for the Elites it's just not worth the hassle.
   Would you say there is a loss of transparency using the CMA Fifteen instead of the TT2? I expected it to be able to drive the Stealth easily.


----------



## zen87192

The Silent Angel items have arrived! Gosh they're teeny, tiny, incy wincy! There's a picture of my Fiio M17 DAP for scale next to the stack 🤣
Time to get them connected to the DAVE.....


----------



## ra990

adrianm said:


> Would you say there is a loss of transparency using the CMA Fifteen instead of the TT2? I expected it to be able to drive the Stealth easily.


I use one or the other, they're both really nice DAC/AMPs. I'm not putting the TT2 through another amp. I've tried a bunch, I prefer the direct out. But TT2 direct out is a different story than the DAVE. I would consider a headamp with the DAVE for sure.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> Daniel Weiss also claims his digital volume control does not affect sound quality, and people who have heard his dac tends to disagree, including reviewers.


Yeah, but to be fair that isn’t a Dave. 😄

Also, after more than 5 years of using Dave every day in various systems i have never heard any difference between Dac mode and Pre amp mode with the Dave. The only pre amp i have ever heard approach Dave for transparency and sound quality is a Music First Baby Ref V2. That was very good but not as good as Dave and that is why i use the dave in pre amp mode to control the volume into my power amps.

By the way, i just sit my Dave directly on top of the Arc6 power supply. No special feet etc. The underside of the top of the Arc6 is very well damped anyway with layers of heavy adhesive sound deadening similar to the stuff used inside car body panels. My SRC.DX doesn’t sit on anything, it just hangs in free space between the cables attached to it.


----------



## zen87192

Silent Angel In situ.... connected to DAVE and now updating firmware... almost there....


----------



## jlbrach

adrianm said:


> I was at a party with 3 people, using speakers, and we were all startled by the change, after listening to it for 40 minutes in Pre mode. No one was reading Dave's display. If the volume difference was the only thing that changed that added perceived clarity, fair enough, I can maybe believe that. But thinking everything is induced placebo is kind of ridiculous.
> Not everyone reads or cares what forums say.


I dont care if 100 people said the same thing there is no difference


----------



## zen87192

Ever since the DAVE has been manufactured have there been any updates to the internals/electronics/cables or the programming? Or has it all stayed the same since day one?


----------



## Ciggavelli

zen87192 said:


> Ever since the DAVE has been manufactured have there been any updates to the internals/electronics/cables or the programming? Or has it all stayed the same since day one?


There was an unacknowledged “firmware” update. I had to send my old DAVE into repairs to get the “firmware” upgraded so it could work with my m-scaler. Prior to the firmware update, the m-scaler didn’t work with the DAVE. Chord probably won’t acknowledge it though, but it affected other people on this forum too


----------



## Hiker816

zen87192 said:


> Ever since the DAVE has been manufactured have there been any updates to the internals/electronics/cables or the programming? Or has it all stayed the same since day one?


My dealer told me Chord updated the DAVE with some minor improvements/revisions to a few parts & wiring in 10/2020.  I have no idea of that's actually true, though.


----------



## sm60

I think you might be responding to the sonic degradation caused by digital truncation of bits in the preamplifier mode that sounds pretty lousy to my ears. I’ve heard digital DACs with volume control for 30+ years. I haven’t yet heard one that sounds as good as the untruncated output run into an active (solid state or tube) or even passive preamplifier. If I run my Dave direct into my power amplifiers, I’m setting the volume control of the Dave around -35dB to -45dB depending on the recording level, the speaker sensitivity and the power amplifier sensitivity.  -45dB digital truncation throws away a lot of bits. Now there’s digital skullduggery to make this less awful, like dithering and of course M-scaling etc., but as the old saying goes, you can put lipstick on a pig, but at the end of the day, it’s still a pig.


----------



## Rob Watts

sm60 said:


> "-45dB digital truncation throws away a lot of bits."


But that's the whole point - my DACs never truncate, no bits are thrown away.


----------



## zen87192

Wow! Silent Angel M1T with F1 LPS and N8 Network Switch through the DAVE work harmoniously! Absolutely stunning! DAVE was recognised by the M1T Streamer and all installed within minutes. The User software was brilliant and stable with DAVE performing outstandingly as per normal. Totally stunning sounds!


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## Malcyg (Apr 30, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> But that's the whole point - my DACs never truncate, no bits are thrown away.



Interesting point which I have seen said before. All digital volumes in my experience, including Dave, change the sound as you roll them back from 0dB. Some less subtle than others. The most obvious effect is a rolling off of the high end coupled with a perceived decrease in clarity/transparency. I have found it to be a useful way of taming/softening overly harsh recordings and I had always assumed that this was due to some sort of mathematical truncation. What is behind this in the case of the Dave?


----------



## Sampajanna

I have found the opposite. Every preamp I have tried with the Dave caused a loss of transparency.


----------



## sm60

Rob Watts said:


> Absolutely correct. DAC mode is completely identical to pre-amp mode - it's just fixed to -3dB. So setting pre-amp mode to -3dB will give absolutely identical performance to DAC mode.


Agreed. However, going direct into a power amplifier, this high a setting of course will never work. So, if we attenuate the signal in preamp mode by say -35dB, as opposed to attenuating by only -3dB and letting the remaining attenuation be done by a high quality analog preamplifier, that’s the comparison being debated.


----------



## Malcyg (Apr 30, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> I have found the opposite. Every preamp I have tried with the Dave caused a loss of transparency.



Not sure whether you were responding to my comment or not but, if you were, you missed my point. I wasn’t referring to any preamp or headphone amp but specifically to digital volume controls which I find to cause a slight softening and roll off of high frequencies as you roll them back. Any attaching amp surely has to have some degree of adverse impact on transparency, that’s a given, but I’m not convinced that digital volume controls have no impact either.


----------



## Malcyg (Apr 30, 2022)

sm60 said:


> Agreed. However, going direct into a power amplifier, this high a setting of course will never work. So, if we attenuate the signal in preamp mode by say -35dB, as opposed to attenuating by only -3dB and letting the remaining attenuation be done by a high quality analog preamplifier, that’s the comparison being debated.



Yes, and it is an interesting comparison. The answer is not as cut and dried as some argue imo and, of course, taste and system synergies will always come into it as random variables which cannot be directly accounted for. I always fed Dave direct into a power amp - and I preferred RCA over balanced because there was an observable loss of transparency in the conversion to balanced imo. Dave headphone output was very good with Utopia but I did find that an external headphone amp was required for Susvara.

For Dave into a power amp and speakers, in my system I found the best sound to be in the yellow zone on the Dave volume control and it probably sounded better yet higher than that but any louder would be dangerous to ears and speakers. In regular use, I frequently had to operate at the lower end of the red zone which is, from memory, around the -35dB attenuation that you mention. At that point, there was a noticeable reduction in transparency and clarity imo, but I never tried a preamp. Dave is not in my system at the moment as I have been trying out different DAC’s and one of them has an analogue preamp built in so I do now get to hear that comparison.


----------



## adrianm

jlbrach said:


> I dont care if 100 people said the same thing there is no difference


I think it's fairly obvious I'm not one to shy away from contradiction, but on this topic I'm really not that invested. 
  If you'd like we can argue about my recent discovery, that despite everyone's claims, my new gaming PC+HQP + SRC-DX is so much quieter (and sounds better) than my old streamer via optical+ M-scaler on battery. And adding re-clockers in between only increases noise. 
   As for volume attenuation and pre-amps...I'm going to let others have some fun as well. But like I said, Daniel Weiss also claims what Rob is claiming and one reviewer who loved the 501 claimed it had "the worst volume control he's seen". So clearly this isn't a specific Dave problem, and while "the 501 isn't Dave", some people prefer it, even on this thread


----------



## PhenixS1970

Hi All, if you are looking for some IsoAcoustics OREA feet for DAVE or M-Scaler check out my classifieds (EU only).


----------



## watermad

watermad said:


> Ground Devices?
> 
> I am a vey happy long-term owner of a Chord DAVE/M-scaler pairing and was wondering if anyone has tried either of these devices on the DAVE; since there was reports of RFI pickup between the M-Scaler and DAVE, I added ferrites to my double BNC connectors?
> 
> ...


I just had a demo of the Ansuz Sortz on my Chord DAVE, BNC plugged into the DAVE and the difference was not small.

I just saw Jazzanova at the Jazz Cafe a week ago and have the Album in FLAC, with just the DAVE in pre-amplifier mode connected in a decent system Audiovector R3 Arrete, Goldnote PA-1175 power amplifier the sound was flat and congested. Plugging in the Ansuz Sortz the bass was defined, I heard the fender rhodes line in Jazzanova - Creative Musicians and the sound hand lifelike energy. It was similar to adding an M-scaler to a DAVE, just mode dynamic and musical.

I had the dealer remove the Ansuz Sortz to check my impressions and the sound flattened. So A) M-scaler on DAVE is big improvement, B) Ansuz Sortz reduces the noise floor even further to hear more dynamics.


----------



## Icenine2

Do you use these with or without WAVE BNC?


----------



## adrianm

watermad said:


> It was similar to adding an M-scaler to a DAVE, just mode dynamic and musical.


At 4.2k for covering all the slots..it better be.
Edit: 8k sorry


----------



## zen87192 (Apr 30, 2022)

Blu-Tack? 😁


----------



## sm60

Rob Watts said:


> But that's the whole point - my DACs never truncate, no bits are thrown away.


So, volume control is done by analog means? If no bits are thrown away, how is the volume control implemented? 

FWIW, here’s my very British hifi secondary system in my rather long dining room: Chord Blu Mk2 with the Dave feeding directly into a Quad Artera current dumping amplifier (latest variant of Peter Walker’s 50 year old design) driving a pair of Quad 2805 electrostatics.


----------



## iDesign

sm60 said:


> So, volume control is done by analog means? If no bits are thrown away, how is the volume control implemented?
> 
> FWIW, here’s my very British hifi secondary system in my rather long dining room: Chord Blu Mk2 with the Dave feeding directly into a Quad Artera current dumping amplifier (latest variant of Peter Walker’s 50 year old design) driving a pair of Quad 2805 electrostatics.


I'm not sure that $17.49 Insignia surge protector from 2014 is doing you any favors.


----------



## sm60

iDesign said:


> I'm not sure that $17.49 Insignia surge protector from 2014 is doing you any favors.


You’re probably right! As this is my secondary system, I tend to be somewhat lax about power supply filtering. In my primary system, I use a PS Audio power supply. I think I may need to get something better.


----------



## genefruit

sm60 said:


> So, volume control is done by analog means? If no bits are thrown away, how is the volume control implemented?
> 
> FWIW, here’s my very British hifi secondary system in my rather long dining room: Chord Blu Mk2 with the Dave feeding directly into a Quad Artera current dumping amplifier (latest variant of Peter Walker’s 50 year old design) driving a pair of Quad 2805 electrostatics.


I interpret it as a voltage control, like TACT did with their digital amplifiers in the early aughts, but I would be happy to learn more.


----------



## sm60

genefruit said:


> I interpret it as a voltage control, like TACT did with their digital amplifiers in the early aughts, but I would be happy to learn more.


Hmm… since I’ve owned Tact products, I assume this implies Dave is converting PCM bitstream to pulse-width modulation bitstreams and then generating voltages using a simple RC network at the output, the way Tact amplifiers did. In that case, yes, volume control by reducing power supply voltage will work, but it would be nice to have Rob confirm this.


----------



## sm60

sm60 said:


> Hmm… since I’ve owned Tact products, I assume this implies Dave is converting PCM bitstream to pulse-width modulation bitstreams and then generating voltages using a simple RC network at the output, the way Tact amplifiers did. In that case, yes, volume control by reducing power supply voltage will work, but it would be nice to have Rob confirm this.


Diversion: listening to The Beatles in Mono. On Vinyl. On a Garrard 301. Using a Miyajima Infinity Mono cartridge. Ah, bliss….


----------



## Malcyg (May 2, 2022)

Mixed feelings today as I sold my Chord Dave. I’m not a forum poster and 99% of all my posting has been on this thread and the Blu II, although mainly going back quite a while now. Back in the day when Dave first came out followed by Blu II, it was great fun as a few of us were working out how to tame this magnificent beast that Rob had given us - felt like real pioneering days back then. Anyway, time moves on and I won’t be posting anymore as this is a thread for owners and lovers of Dave. I’m still a fan of Chord DAC’s though and have a MojoPoly and 2 H2Go’s in the house and will continue to watch whatever Rob gets up to next with interest.

Meanwhile, I will not be missing these clunkers which were/still are the best BNC interconnects I ever heard with BluDave. They are big, heavy and inflexible in operation but they sound fantastic with the Clear Audio Silverline Optimus Reference 75. My thanks again to the generosity of @marcmccalmont who sourced and sent me these ferrites all the way from Canada to the U.K. and wouldn’t accept a penny in recompense. That really reflects the spirit and nature of those early days imo.


----------



## Sampajanna

Malcyg said:


> Mixed feelings today as I sold my Chord Dave. I’m not a forum poster and 99% of all my posting has been on this thread and the Blu II, although mainly going back quite a while now. Back in the day when Dave first came out followed by Blu II, it was great fun as a few of us were working out how to tame this magnificent beast that Rob had given us - felt like real pioneering days back then. Anyway, time moves on and I won’t be posting anymore as this is a thread for owners and lovers of Dave. I’m still a fan of Chord DAC’s though and have a MojoPoly and 2 H2Go’s in the house and will continue to watch whatever Rob gets up to next with interest.
> 
> Meanwhile, I will not be missing these clunkers which were/still are the best BNC interconnects I ever heard with BluDave. They are big, heavy and inflexible in operation but they sound fantastic with the Clear Audio Silverline Optimus Reference 75. My thanks again to the generosity of @marcmccalmont who sourced and sent me these ferrites all the way from Canada to the U.K. and wouldn’t accept a penny in recompense. That really reflects the spirit and nature of those early days imo.


What did you move on to?


----------



## adrianm

Sampajanna said:


> What did you move on to?


It looks like it's too late...he's already gone...enjoying his Topping D90 as per previous advice.


----------



## Somatic

How much did the chord Dave go up in price ? Location: USA


----------



## iDesign (May 3, 2022)

Somatic said:


> How much did the chord Dave go up in price ? Location: USA


The MSRP is still $12,595 in the United States.


----------



## MvRBE10 (May 3, 2022)

Its ready to rock and roll. Final version is ready for the dave lovers. Just finished listening a week to the final version. And some fool proof testing. Man this rocks. Did some smps to lps swaps back and forth but that’s a night and day difference, imaging, focus and placement of instruments is mental on this lps upgrade. Bass defenition etc its all been said but when you do a back to the old power unit and swap back its then when you notice immidialy what the gains are.

Added some photos i made for the install manual farad will add to there product packadge but here a heads up.

It even looks better than the original 😁


----------



## Somatic

iDesign said:


> the MSRP is still $12,595 in the United States.


Since last year? Two Independent dealers have told me that the price has gone up. I think it’s about $1k more. Is this right?


----------



## MvRBE10

Somatic said:


> Since last year? Two Independent dealers have told me that the price has gone up. I think it’s about $1k more. Is this right?


In holland the price went to 11.500,- euro so your estimate could well be correct.


----------



## Icenine2

What is the power cord consensus with DAVE? I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger.


----------



## MvRBE10 (May 3, 2022)

Icenine2 said:


> What is the power cord consensus with DAVE? I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger.


A good cord will help to eliminate some rf noise. When i did not have the lps upgrade i used a nock off aq dragon cable and it helped. But i also used two kemp sns and q filters in my powerblock. The rubbish the dave puts back in the net also influences the sound. So in short yes it helps. You can also take over my aq dragon power cord it is a chinese nock off but has exacly the same principles of shielding etc. Friend of mine compared it with the org (aq dragon) and could not hear much difference on his dave/focal mark levinson setup.


----------



## Slim1970

Icenine2 said:


> What is the power cord consensus with DAVE? I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger.


I'm using the JPS Labs Digital AC-X Filtered AC Cord with my Dave. No complaints here


----------



## sm60

I’m using stock power cords and a vanilla $15 multiport outlet with my Blu 2 and Dave. Sounds just fine to my ears. I dare say you can tweak the sound by investing in megabuck external power supplies. But rather than going that route, I decided to invest in a Lampi tube based DAC that has a very different sound for my primary system.  Even though I don’t use the Chord system in my primary listening room, which is now all SET tube-based, I’m not selling my Chord pieces. They do what they do exceptionally well and the form factor is hard to beat. In a world of boring black boxes, the Chord’s are different.  There’s a great tradition in British hifi of compact form electronics, which the Chord units exemplify. 

As a grad student in the 1980s, I used to own the classic Quad 34 preamp, FM4 tuner and 306 amplifier. They were cute, extraordinarily well built and just worked. Regrettably I sold that combo years later, but in a nostalgic binge recently, I ended up getting the even older Quad 33 preamp with the 303 amplifier. There’s a great story that Quad would have sold a lot more 33 preamps had Peter Walker changed its iconic orange and beige exterior. Walker,  being the cantankerous designer he was, refused as he personally designed  its quirky looks. I also own an all original Quad ESL 57 electrostatic loudspeaker, which is about 65 years old, works flawlessly and will give any modern loudspeaker a run for its money even today. You haven’t lived as an audiophile if you haven’t heard a 57. The Bahaus styling is also classic. In a world filled with boring speakers with as many drive units that can be stuffed into a box as possible at a huge surcharge and weigh a 1000 pounds  (e.g., Magico made near my house for Silicon Valley billionaires), the 57s remain unique and timeless with their quirky room heater styling. 

Similarly Chord digital is unique in its design and looks. I’m not a huge fan of the Dave display but hey, it’s different! I expect to keep my Chord pieces for a long time to come. I did have some issues with the Blu transport initially, but a trip to the Chord authorized service center fixed the problem and the Blu  now functions flawlessly.


----------



## Somatic

What advances does the Dave have that the TT2 doesn’t? Heard the difference is apparent. It’s not just the taps … anything else? Also any other potential DACs that are better?


----------



## DJJEZ

Somatic said:


> What advances does the Dave have that the TT2 doesn’t? Heard the difference is apparent. It’s not just the taps … anything else? Also any other potential DACs that are better?


Dave is night and day difference for technical performance. You will give up TT2's slight warmth and tonal density for better everything from the DAVE.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

sm60 said:


> In a world of boring black boxes, the Chord’s are different.


Completely agree. Typical hi-fi boxes look boring, unfortunately. Even though I've found a sound I like better, I miss DAVE's design a bit. Unusual, futuristic, beautiful.


----------



## Somatic

DJJEZ said:


> Dave is night and day difference for technical performance. You will give up TT2's slight warmth and tonal density for better everything from the DAVE.


Thanks but also curious what is the additional tech in the Dave that makes this possible.


----------



## alxw0w (May 4, 2022)

Somatic said:


> What advances does the Dave have that the TT2 doesn’t? Heard the difference is apparent. It’s not just the taps … anything else? Also any other potential DACs that are better?


Better noise shapers, 20 element pulse array, more taps but those are irrelevant when m scaler is used.

Also second order noise shaper (feedback) is working on much faster rate.

And indeed whole presentation is very different.

ps. I decided to keep Dave, I thought I could switch to TT2, no I cannot.


----------



## Christer (May 4, 2022)

sm60 said:


> I’m using stock power cords and a vanilla $15 multiport outlet with my Blu 2 and Dave. Sounds just fine to my ears. I dare say you can tweak the sound by investing in megabuck external power supplies. But rather than going that route, I decided to invest in a Lampi tube based DAC that has a very different sound for my primary system.  Even though I don’t use the Chord system in my primary listening room, which is now all SET tube-based, I’m not selling my Chord pieces. They do what they do exceptionally well and the form factor is hard to beat. In a world of boring black boxes, the Chord’s are different.  There’s a great tradition in British hifi of compact form electronics, which the Chord units exemplify.
> 
> As a grad student in the 1980s, I used to own the classic Quad 34 preamp, FM4 tuner and 306 amplifier. They were cute, extraordinarily well built and just worked. Regrettably I sold that combo years later, but in a nostalgic binge recently, I ended up getting the even older Quad 33 preamp with the 303 amplifier. There’s a great story that Quad would have sold a lot more 33 preamps had Peter Walker changed its iconic orange and beige exterior. Walker,  being the cantankerous designer he was, refused as he personally designed  its quirky looks. I also own an all original Quad ESL 57 electrostatic loudspeaker, which is about 65 years old, works flawlessly and will give any modern loudspeaker a run for its money even today. You haven’t lived as an audiophile if you haven’t heard a 57. The Bahaus styling is also classic. In a world filled with boring speakers with as many drive units that can be stuffed into a box as possible at a huge surcharge and weigh a 1000 pounds  (e.g., Magico made near my house for Silicon Valley billionaires), the 57s remain unique and timeless with their quirky room heater styling.
> 
> Similarly Chord digital is unique in its design and looks. I’m not a huge fan of the Dave display but hey, it’s different! I expect to keep my Chord pieces for a long time to come. I did have some issues with the Blu transport initially, but a trip to the Chord authorized service center fixed the problem and the Blu  now functions flawlessly.


Wow! I could not have said it better myself . That sentence  "with as many drivers as can be stuffed into a box as possible" made me laugh out loud. 
Good one.
 While I do not own any Quad electrostats I do remember how good stacked  Quads were in their day, compared to most of  those very big  very coloured boxes.
And no I am not thinking of paint, but the  coloured boxy sound of many conventional box speakers. My current  electrostats are a compromise with  a conventional  bass driver but from around 250 hz and as far  up as my hearing allows, they are still more transparent and effortless than most much more expensive big box speakers crammed with drivers and crossover points that  I have auditioned.
Cheers CC


----------



## Christer

Ragnar-BY said:


> Completely agree. Typical hi-fi boxes look boring, unfortunately. Even though I've found a sound I like better, I miss DAVE's design a bit. Unusual, futuristic, beautiful.


Hmm, so what did you find that you like better SQ wise?
In my case  I could not care less about design choices that are only there as "Eye Candy"! 
And I do not like the design of Chord products. But I use Qutest and Mscaler as a good sounding combo in my systems both via speakers and headphones, for SQ reasons only.
Cheers CC


----------



## Ragnar-BY

Christer said:


> what did you find that you like better SQ wise?


Holo May KTE, we’ve discussed it earlier here.

It is not “objectively better”, it’s more about values. Me and @alxw0w listened to both Holo and Chord systems many times. Hi likes DAVE, I switched to May. We have discussed what we heard more than once, and it turns out that we hear the same differences, but evaluate them in completely different ways.


----------



## Lgn3

JGoose said:


> Was over on another forum and saw a post from a new shop about a Chord Electronics Open day they are running. One line stood out from the rest:
> 
> "Chord Electronics will be launching a brand-new Ultima Product at the Open Day". The Ultima series only seems to be missing one thing an Ultima Source/DAC! It's got to be right?
> 
> Thought I would come to share the news here and see what you guys think. I know Rob Watts likes to join in the discussion, has there been any mention?


Ultima 3 Preamp.....£6k


----------



## Icenine2

Lgn3 said:


> Ultima 3 Preamp.....£6k


I got that email too. Cool looking. A big reach here but could a new DAVE be on board as well?


----------



## zen87192

A new MScaler for the Dave


----------



## Icenine2

I don't know if it's possible but "one box" instead of add HMS would be nice.


----------



## adrianm

Icenine2 said:


> I don't know if it's possible but "one box" instead of add HMS would be nice.


It's not, HMS is an RF bomb even in another box.


----------



## PhenixS1970

Hi all, if you are using very heavy (dual) BNC cables with DAVE / M-Scaler (one particular brand comes to mind, lol) and want to release some stress from digital inputs….have a look at my Furutech classifieds listing .


----------



## watermad

Icenine2 said:


> Do you use these with or without WAVE BNC?


I haven't got Wave BNC, I use Townshend BNC to BNC and added ferrites myself.


----------



## Powersquat

Late last year I was told that Chord were planning to launch a new high end DAC this year, not to replace Dave, but to run alongside the existing line up and will be significantly more expensive. than the current UK RRP of £9,000. for the Dave. Also no new Mscaler was planned for 2022. Of course this is just hearsay, but with Chord's upcoming product announcement it does at least appear to be plausible.


----------



## Icenine2

I own the Hugo TT2 and Found two Dave’s for sale at really good prices. I’m being tempted beyond my abilities here


----------



## adrianm

Powersquat said:


> Late last year I was told that Chord were planning to launch a new high end DAC this year, not to replace Dave, but to run alongside the existing line up and will be significantly more expensive. than the current UK RRP of £9,000. for the Dave. Also no new Mscaler was planned for 2022. Of course this is just hearsay, but with Chord's upcoming product announcement it does at least appear to be plausible.


Rob himself said contradicted both points.


----------



## iDesign (May 4, 2022)

Powersquat said:


> Late last year I was told that Chord were planning to launch a new high end DAC this year, not to replace Dave, but to run alongside the existing line up and will be significantly more expensive. than the current UK RRP of £9,000. for the Dave. Also no new Mscaler was planned for 2022. Of course this is just hearsay, but with Chord's upcoming product announcement it does at least appear to be plausible.


Star Magazine rumors.


----------



## chesebert

Icenine2 said:


> I own the Hugo TT2 and Found two Dave’s for sale at really good prices. I’m being tempted beyond my abilities here


I think you need a better transport than your PC, to be complete honest. TT2 is not garbage but your PC is.


----------



## Powersquat

adrianm said:


> Rob himself said contradicted both points.



He's never denied Chord were developing a brand new high end DAC, merely that Dave 2 was not on the horizon, as I stated if my information is correct Dave will remain in production. He has indicated that the new Mscaler may be ready at the end of 2022, my information is 6 months old so perhaps the new Mscaler is ahead of schedule, of course it's all conjecture.


----------



## Icenine2

chesebert said:


> I think you need a better transport than your PC, to be complete honest. TT2 is not garbage but your PC is.


Thx. I see you’re a Gilmore fan.


----------



## Icenine2

chesebert said:


> I think you need a better transport than your PC, to be complete honest. TT2 is not garbage but your PC is.


My PC or just in general?  What do you recommend?


----------



## Powersquat

iDesign said:


> Star Magazine rumors.



Quite possibly, however the information came from someone in the trade, as this person is affiliated with Chord I don't really see any advantage in spreading rumours, we shall see.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Powersquat said:


> He's never denied Chord were developing a brand new high end DAC, merely that Dave 2 was not on the horizon, as I stated if my information is correct Dave will remain in production. He has indicated that the new Mscaler may be ready at the end of 2022, my information is 6 months old so perhaps the new Mscaler is ahead of schedule, of course it's all conjecture.


This is true, though he claimed that the FPGA whatever hasn’t advanced enough to warrant a DAVE 2. I guess that leaves open other technologies and wouldn’t make Rob a liar (something he says he tries hard to avoid). 

Let’s just hope it allows for easy firmware or software updates like other modern high end dacs.


----------



## chesebert

Icenine2 said:


> My PC or just in general?  What do you recommend?


PC in general.


----------



## Icenine2

chesebert said:


> PC in general.


So DIY server?  I have the plans I just have not had the time to build one


----------



## chesebert

Icenine2 said:


> So DIY server?  I have the plans I just have not had the time to build one


Server is fine and shouldn't have any material impact on the sound. I was talking the digital signal that goes into your dac - in this case Windows/Mac are generally garbage. Linux is better but only if you can run audiophile distributions (not familiar) or roll your own Linux distribution. After software there is this whole thing with hardware, clock, power...too much work to DIY IMO. Just get a similarily priced streamer and you will be much happier than Dave.


----------



## Icenine2

Excellent. Can you recommend one? I have roughly 3 TB of music on file


----------



## chesebert

Icenine2 said:


> Excellent. Can you recommend one? I have roughly 3 TB of music on file


I have limited experience with standalone streamer. I have only heard Aurender N10, N20 and N30 and Emm Labs NS1. I have a lot of experience with Linn's streamers but those are all-in-one with dac. I think as streamers, Aurender and Emm Labs all sound pretty good to me. I did not hear N10, N20 and N30 side by side so I could not tell you incremental improvements among the units. You can continue to use your jRiver as UPNP file server - I use jRiver as I need some DSP functionality with UPNP.

Looks like I actually did not provide any recommendation  You need to do the work yourself. Use Cat8 cables and get a dedicated switch for the streamer (the cheap gigabit 5 port unmanaged switch will do). You can go crazy from there if you want when you have decided on your streamer.


----------



## iDesign (May 5, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> Let’s just hope it allows for easy firmware or software updates like other modern high end dacs.


Agreed. Chord would be wise to begin working on a firmware update strategy. With an interest rate hike, record inflation, broken supply chains, and a major recession on the way Chord needs to figure out ways release affordable firmware upgrades for their DACs and M Scalers. From a hardware perspective, the DAVE and M Scaler platforms have many more years left of life. An economic tumble will be unkind to companies like Chord and trying to push Choral range products and an M Scaler X in late 2022+ won’t end well. Firmware upgrades would also increase customer loyalty, reduce the secondhand market, and help Chord justify MSRP increases. And if they release firmware upgrades, they cant be frequent because that will backfire and should only be issued every so many years.


----------



## chesebert (May 5, 2022)

iDesign said:


> Agreed. Chord would be wise to begin working on a firmware update strategy. With an interest rate hike, record inflation, broken supply chains, and a major recession on the way Chord needs to figure out ways release affordable firmware upgrades for their DACs and M Scalers. From a hardware perspective, the DAVE and M Scaler platforms have many more years left of life. An economic tumble will be unkind to companies like Chord and trying to push Choral range products and an M Scaler X in late 2022+ won’t end well. Firmware upgrades would also increase customer loyalty, reduce the secondhand market, and help Chord justify MSRP increases. And if they release firmware upgrades, they cant be frequent because that will backfire and should only be issued every so many years.


It's almost a crime at this point to not be able to update your own FPGA and firmware. I have been updating firmware on Linn streamer/dac for 10+ yr now. Started with basic one with just basic UPNP functionality 10 years ago, but now it has Tidal, Qobuz, Roon integration, among other integrations, airplay, multi room cast, digital EQ, DSP and room correction. Sound quality has also been improving in general over the past decade. All these were provided for free and I have pretty much saved a decade worth of firmware files in case I want to go back.


----------



## Triode User

Ciggavelli said:


> This is true, though he claimed that the FPGA whatever hasn’t advanced enough to warrant a DAVE 2. I guess that leaves open other technologies and wouldn’t make Rob a liar (something he says he tries hard to avoid).
> 
> Let’s just hope it allows for easy firmware or software updates like other modern high end dacs.


When used with the mscaler, part of the Dave is redundant. I suppose it is not impossible that with the new Choral range mscaler might get a new dedicated dac to go with it . . . and might that combination sound better than using the new MScaler with a Dave? 

Of course unfounded speculation such as this is basically just a waste of time but it does put off having to get on and doing some actual work on this nice sunny day!!


----------



## lucasratmundo

DJJEZ said:


> Dave is night and day difference for technical performance. You will give up TT2's slight warmth and tonal density for better everything from the DAVE.


Got my Dave today to replace my TT2. I couldn't agree more with this.


----------



## alxw0w (May 5, 2022)

DJJEZ said:


> You will give up TT2's slight warmth and tonal density


Actually Dave has more real tonal density.
TT2 is just warmer/thicker denser. But at the same time less tonally variable.


----------



## Powersquat

Ciggavelli said:


> This is true, though he claimed that the FPGA whatever hasn’t advanced enough to warrant a DAVE 2. I guess that leaves open other technologies and wouldn’t make Rob a liar (something he says he tries hard to avoid).
> 
> Let’s just hope it allows for easy firmware or software updates like other modern high end dacs.
> 
> It was never my intention to imply that Rob Watts has been disingenuous, in fact I can't think of any other HiFi designer/manufacturer that's been so frank and honest, but as anyone who's been following Chord over the past number of years knows, John Franks likes to play his cards very close to his chest, so Rob is somewhat limited as to what he's able to reveal.



As a relatively new owner of Dave I'm  still revelling in the glow of my new Dave, so I may well be peeved if a new Chord Super DAC were to come to market any time soon.


----------



## chesebert

Hope you got a good discount on that Dave. It's not exactly new having released in 2015. Almost all TOTL dacs from that time have had at least one interim upgrade.


----------



## griff500

chesebert said:


> Hope you got a good discount on that Dave. It's not exactly new having released in 2015. Almost all TOTL dacs from that time have had at least one interim upgrade.


And yet after all that time at still one of the best out there at that price.

What did you pay for yours?


----------



## chesebert

griff500 said:


> And yet after all that time at still one of the best out there at that price.
> 
> What did you pay for yours?


Just a general observation about TOTL dacs from that era. Not a fan of Chord's higher end dacs so not a Dave owner.


----------



## Lgn3

griff500 said:


> And yet after all that time at still one of the best out there at that price.


You beat me to it !


----------



## griff500

chesebert said:


> Just a general observation about TOTL dacs from that era. Not a fan of Chord's higher end dacs so not a Dave owner.


You're in the wrong thread then.


----------



## chesebert

"one of the best" is a loaded term. SFD-2 is still "one of the best" and I am sure someone out there will prefer a decades old dac over Dave.


----------



## DJJEZ

chesebert said:


> Just a general observation about TOTL dacs from that era. Not a fan of Chord's higher end dacs so not a Dave owner.


Why are you in the chord DAVE thread if you don't like it  surely it's better to spend your time discussing things you do like.


----------



## griff500

chesebert said:


> "one of the best" is a loaded term. SFD-2 is still "one of the best" and I am sure someone out there will prefer a decades old dac over Dave.


Come on buddy, you must have something better to do...


----------



## chesebert

griff500 said:


> Come on buddy, you must have something better to do...


You are right. I should just leave y'all to circlejerk one another


----------



## griff500

chesebert said:


> You are right. I should just leave y'all to circlejerk one another


Delightful.

Off you go then.


----------



## nwavesailor

That is why I have him on 'ignore'. Life is to short to have miserable people try to make me miserable.


----------



## Lgn3

nwavesailor said:


> That is why I have him on 'ignore'. Life is to short to have miserable people try to make me miserable.


Good idea.


----------



## audio_1

chesebert said:


> Hope you got a good discount on that Dave. It's not exactly new having released in 2015. Almost all TOTL dacs from that time have had at least one interim upgrade.


What difference does it make that it was released in 2015. The Dave and the m-scaler were the best dac available then, and with a few tweaks they still are now.


----------



## audio_1

griff500 said:


> And yet after all that time at still one of the best out there at that price.
> 
> What did you pay for yours?


At any price imho!


----------



## adrianm (May 5, 2022)

chesebert said:


> I think you need a better transport than your PC, to be complete honest. TT2 is not garbage but your PC is.


After being persuaded by this thread to get a streamer for Dave, it's now picking up dust and i went back to my pc for Hqplayer. It's only garbage if you have no idea what you're doing and think clean power is a myth


----------



## Birdboy01

Looking at Antipodes K50 and Grimm Audio's Mu1. Both are exceptional streamers with very, very distinct signatures. I'd be interested to know if anyone else has compared these two with DAVE and their experience with a single BNC cable?


----------



## TheAttorney (May 6, 2022)

Birdboy01 said:


> Looking at Antipodes K50 and Grimm Audio's Mu1. Both are exceptional streamers with very, very distinct signatures. I'd be interested to know if anyone else has compared these two with DAVE and their experience with a single BNC cable?


I own an MU1 > DAVE, which easily beat a Statement (with original power supply). I haven't tried the K50, but the only mini-review I've seen had them broadly equal, with the MU1 being more transparent and the K50 being a bit warmer.

SQ-wise, the MU1 does not have a distinct signature - it's very transparent. But in form and function it is indeed very different to the K50.
Go for the MU1 if you want a relatively small, light and simple system that only runs Roon. One and done.
Go for the K50 if you want more flexibility and non-Roon options, and like the idea of a bigger, heavier and much more expensive component. Greater tinkering possibilities.

The MU1 doesn't have a BNC output. It's either AES or spdif/RCA. It upsamples only up to 4FS. Choose one great AES cable (see the MU1 thread on AS) and say goodbye to all previous faffing around with BNC and USB cables.


----------



## Triode User (May 6, 2022)

TheAttorney said:


> I own an MU1 > DAVE, which easily beat a Statement (with original power supply). I haven't tried the K50, but the only mini-review I've seen had them broadly equal, with the MU1 being more transparent and the K50 being a bit warmer.
> 
> SQ-wise, the MU1 does not have a distinct signature - it's very transparent. But in form and function it is indeed very different to the K50.
> Go for the MU1 if you want a relatively small, light and simple system that only runs Roon. One and done.
> ...


I have considered the MU1 but I am concerned that it is Roon only.

One can accept that the MU1 is a good implementation of Roon but the question is whether Roon on the MU1 is as good SQ as the K50 playing Squeeze/Squeezelite. I have never heard Roon being totally transparent compared to Squeeze + Squeezelite.

There is only one way to find out and one day I will load up my K50 and take it to see Jack at the Audio Barn, stockists of the MU1 and also the Extreme. (I have promised Jack that I will take my ARC6 Dave so he can hear that.)


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## Birdboy01

TheAttorney said:


> I own an MU1 > DAVE, which easily beat a Statement (with original power supply). I haven't tried the K50, but the only mini-review I've seen had them broadly equal, with the MU1 being more transparent and the K50 being a bit warmer.
> 
> SQ-wise, the MU1 does not have a distinct signature - it's very transparent. But in form and function it is indeed very different to the K50.
> Go for the MU1 if you want a relatively small, light and simple system that only runs Roon. One and done.
> ...


Thanks for that, Attorney. Indeed, its a spaghetti farm in the back of the cabinet with the MK-III, Phoenixnet and reclocker, so the MU1 sounds attractive, although sole reliance on Roon - the company not the product -is the only nagging concern. Getting OT for this forum, but how are you finding Mu1's menu wheel? From what I understand, there's no remote. Are you able to access most of the selections without having to get up and turn that wheel?


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## adrianm

TheAttorney said:


> I own an MU1 > DAVE, which easily beat a Statement (with original power supply). I haven't tried the K50, but the only mini-review I've seen had them broadly equal, with the MU1 being more transparent and the K50 being a bit warmer.
> 
> SQ-wise, the MU1 does not have a distinct signature - it's very transparent. But in form and function it is indeed very different to the K50.
> Go for the MU1 if you want a relatively small, light and simple system that only runs Roon. One and done.
> ...


Looks like up sampling streamers are the latest fad. The new Lumin U2 mini seems similar, and also has USB :
https://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-u2-mini.html


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## Sampajanna

The MU1 may not be a great match if one uses Mscaler either. I am wondering about the new Statement with Sean’s ARC6-based PSU… Antipodes has a new flagship coming in August as well!


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## Somatic

I know it’s hard but if one wanted to quantify the difference in percentage of the TT2 vs Dave …. Would TT2 be 80% as good?


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## 801evan

Somatic said:


> I know it’s hard but if one wanted to quantify the difference in percentage of the TT2 vs Dave …. Would TT2 be 80% as good?


Depends on the listening acuity of the person. Some people can't tell the difference of a cable while I can tell difference between different rca plugs, 2.1mm plugs. The fundamental processing power of the Dave vs tt2 and how it sounds is very close compared to the performance difference of their psu. Tt2 is less sensitive to mains quality than the Dave so tt2 may be ahead albeit some congestion while the Dave has good extension too and bottom but susceptible to extra energy on upper mids and up. Both tt2 and Dave can be tweaked within or around it where one can exceed the other.

Deciding between the two is less important vs the optimization needed on the rest of the chain. If one can spend the extra $$ on the Dave, they will still be rewarded.


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## nwavesailor

To me, the stock Dave from a stock TT2 was not even close. I will admit I was a little put off initially with the added detail, clarity and less warmth coming from the TT2, but now recognize that I am a bit more analytical that I first thought and am looking for detail that I KNOW is there!


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## Triode User

Somatic said:


> I know it’s hard but if one wanted to quantify the difference in percentage of the TT2 vs Dave …. Would TT2 be 80% as good?


I personally would put TT2 at about 50% of a stock Dave but that is ignoring the TT2 headphone output prowess because I never use headphones. That 50% assessment can be roughly translated as ‘not in the same ball park’.


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## Somatic

Triode User said:


> I personally would put TT2 at about 50% of a stock Dave but that is ignoring the TT2 headphone output prowess because I never use headphones. That 50% assessment can be roughly translated as ‘not in the same ball park’.


Wow.


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## alxw0w

It's always hard to put number on such things.
On top of that some people wouldn't hear much of the difference.

To my ears the difference is quite profound. It's big to the point I have hard time listening to TT2 after owning Dave for ~2years. (Same with all other dacs)


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## TheAttorney (May 7, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> The MU1 may not be a great match if one uses Mscaler either. I am wondering about the new Statement with Sean’s ARC6-based PSU… Antipodes has a new flagship coming in August as well!


Yes, if you go for the MU1 then the Mscaler becomes redundant. I tried MU1 to DAVE with and without Mscaler in between and it was immediately clear that the MScaler was getting in the way. This was great for my downsizing objectives, but if you must keep your MScaler then the MU1 is not the right server for you.

EDIT: Secondly, the Mscaler doesn't have AES or spdif/RCA inputs, so I had to use an RCA/BNC converter plug which may have compromised the tests a bit.

No doubt the ARC6 Statement will be wonderful, but with a big hike in prices. More of a K50 rival price wise.


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## adrianm

Somatic said:


> I know it’s hard but if one wanted to quantify the difference in percentage of the TT2 vs Dave …. Would TT2 be 80% as good?


To me, after owning the Mojo for 3 years, the Hugo 2 was not a worthwhile improvement, the TT2 was better, but nothing to make me want to upgrade, even with the M-scaler. Dave was something entirely different and it just blew my mind compared to mTT2.
     I struggled to quantify any differences before I bought it, but in the end, I felt it was either Dave or sticking to my Mojo. Of course, now i only view stock Dave as a good starting point that can be massively upgraded.


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## Powersquat

Somatic said:


> I know it’s hard but if one wanted to quantify the difference in percentage of the TT2 vs Dave …. Would TT2 be 80% as good?



Being a relatively recent convert from TT2 to Dave I've spent many listening hours pondering this very question.

I'm exclusively a 2 channel listener and Mscaler has been in my system with both TT2 and Dave, connected withWave Stream cables. In this configuration I believe Dave outperforms the TT2 by some margin, an overall percentage is difficult to quantify, however bass articulation, depth and control are a particular strong point for Dave and in my system and to my ears the TT2 could only be placed at about 50% of Dave's bass performance.

Similarly when it comes to overall detail the Dave is so much sharper, this may not be a good thing for everyone, but it's something I value, in this instance I'd place the TT2 at about 60%.

 Soundstage width and depth, the dave again improves over the TT2, again I'd put the difference at about 60%.

The holographic detail offered by Dave is so compelling, the TT2 just can't match this. 

I honestly believe the TT2 is a great DAC, but it's unfair to compare it directly with the Dave, after all a new Dave is 100% more expensive 

I think the better the source the more Dave shines over the TT2, I've recently purchased a PS Audio PST Transport and I've been blown away by the improvement, The PsT Dave combo is just sublime, there is an improvement when the TT2 is paired with the PST, however the percentage is markedly lower than when Dave is placed back into the system. 

Last week I ordered a pair of Wave Storm cables and eagerly await their arrival, I suspect moving from the Stream cable to the Storm will further highlight the differences between Dave and TT2. I will report back with my findings.


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## Somatic

adrianm said:


> To me, after owning the Mojo for 3 years, the Hugo 2 was not a worthwhile improvement, the TT2 was better, but nothing to make me want to upgrade, even with the M-scaler. Dave was something entirely different and it just blew my mind compared to mTT2.
> I struggled to quantify any differences before I bought it, but in the end, I felt it was either Dave or sticking to my Mojo. Of course, now i only view stock Dave as a good starting point that can be massively upgraded.


Which upgrades?


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## Somatic

Powersquat said:


> Being a relatively recent convert from TT2 to Dave I've spent many listening hours pondering this very question.
> 
> I'm exclusively a 2 channel listener and Mscaler has been in my system with both TT2 and Dave, connected withWave Stream cables. In this configuration I believe Dave outperforms the TT2 by some margin, an overall percentage is difficult to quantify, however bass articulation, depth and control are a particular strong point for Dave and in my system and to my ears the TT2 could only be placed at about 50% of Dave's bass performance.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the detailed response. Dave seems like a great purchase.


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## audio_1

TheAttorney said:


> Yes, if you go for the MU1 then the Mscaler becomes redundant. I tried MU1 to DAVE with and without Mscaler in between and it was immediately clear that the MScaler was getting in the way. This was great for my downsizing objectives, but if you must keep your MScaler then the MU1 is not the right server for you.
> 
> EDIT: Secondly, the Mscaler doesn't have AES or spdif/RCA inputs, so I had to use an RCA/BNC converter plug which may have compromised the tests a bit.
> 
> No doubt the ARC6 Statement will be wonderful, but with a big hike in prices. More of a K50 rival price wise.


How can the MU1 replace the Mscaler, it doesn't have a million-tap digital filter? The comparison can only me made with the Mscaler optically connected to the Dave with Opto-Dx, separate power supplies and physically separated by a few metres. With the Opto-DX, and separate power supplies the digital input on the Mscaler is irrevalant.


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## adrianm

Somatic said:


> Which upgrades?


If you're not careful, this is a question that might waste you years of your life LOL.
 Some people swear by cables, some by 25k "audiophile" Pc's , there's different ways to go about it. Most of it does make a difference. *Just remember: for every cable that "improves" the sound, there's a box that does it much better and cheaper * 

   I've tried for years to reconcile the two sides:
   1) Head-fi mentality : more expensive is better, improvements combined with status symbols. 
   2) ASR mentality :  Clean power or different streamers make no difference with well designed gear and people from 1) are crazy

 After testing it myself for years, I've found that the truth is somewhere in the middle:
    By ASR's logic, Dave is poorly designed, because clean power matters hugely, as does the source. And it's not magic or audiophile bs, it's just that Dave is very sensitive to noise, I doubt this is any different with other high end gear. Soundstage size, depth, imaging, and timbre all greatly depend on how much noise is entering Dave. 
    Bits are bits, but noise matters, and some say, clocks matter too. As immune to jitter as Rob claims Dave is. I have no opinion on this as I've not tested it myself. Since the SRC-DX re-clocks the USB stream when converting to SPDIF, adding a clock in front of it makes absolutely no sense. Same with the M-scaler I would say. 
    As much as I've tried to optimize it, the M-scaler is a noise bomb, so i got rid of it. What it does is great, but you can get a  bigger improvement with Hqplayer/PGGB, imo, with a lot less noise. It's like adding another M-scaler on top of the M-scaler. Plus you have options.
   I don't mean noise you can hear, but once you get rid of it, the imaging improves, the background cleans up and there is an addictive "calmness" to the sound. What people call "analogue" sounding.
   There's two things I recommend you try once you get your Dave and funds allow :

*A)* Filter the power, it's true, Dave's PSU sucks. It's worse than TT2 most likely. Do you need to go out and buy an 8k power supply? Haven't tried it myself, but probably not.
   I've started with an Isotek Sirius mains filter, moved up to an Isotek Aquarius, and the improvements with each were shocking. Tighter/deeper bass, better depth ,separation , more 3d sound, and that _addictive calmness_. Stock Dave is a fatiguing wall of sound in comparison. Adding the M-scaler fatigue is much greater, even on battery. 
      I'm so sold on clean power being the biggest factor for improvement out of everything I've tried, that i just placed an order on an Isotek Genesis One for Dave without being able to hear or return it. Unfortunately it's still not here yet so I can't comment on it.

*B1)* After A is sorted, noise entering from your source (streamer, pc) will be even more apparent. You have multiple  solutions here, depending on if you want to keep M-scaler or not. If you do want it...Ferrite cables/Opto-DX/battery for the M-scaler are your best bet.
*B2) Intona+SRC-DX+DC-block + any pc/streamer* Chord USB input does suck. I feel like this chain is amazing value. HQP+SRC-DX beats M-scaler for a lot less money imo. And this isn't a savings thing, if the new M-scaler will be better I will gladly buy it. I use my PC for the above, but there is still noise, which is why i've plugged my 1000w PC into my power conditioner. This combo everything I've ever heard from the M-scaler (on battery for noise reduction). 
     The Intona USB isolator  is pretty amazing as well. In combination with the Audiowise DC-Blocks (block direct currents as the name implies) it's actually pretty close to what the mains conditioner does. I'm currently in the process of A/B-ing this chain vs the conditioner to see if i can get rid of it and clear some space once the Genesis One arrives.

 So long story short (ish), the only improvements (Not changes, plenty of snake oil that actually makes things worse) to Dave I could reliably A/B are the ones consistent with science, not audiophile marketing.
     Reduce noise into Dave and you'll be rewarded. Whether you want to go the route above, or by buying Taiko, Grimm, or other solutions, it's up to you. Just know that there are massive improvements to be had quite easily. As bittersweet as that is for a device at Dave's price. Don't let those huge price tags put you off Dave.
     Once an all in one comes along that beats the *B2* chain, i'll gladly get rid of it all to reduce box count even further. I've found that the more active components you add (with their own PSU), the more noise you add. And measurements back this up.
    Till then, for my headphone use, this is the best sound I've been able to get, but I'm confident the Genesis One will further improve things.


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## zen87192 (May 7, 2022)

I’m currently using a Silent Angel M1T Streamer with a Forrester F1 LPS via an N8 Network Switch. This is being fed by a British Telecom (BT) WiFi Mesh Disc that receives signals from my BT Hub in the next room which is about 20ft away. The WiFi Mesh Disc has an Ethernet socket on the back which I use to connect to my N8 Network Switch. Everything seems to be brilliant. As the connection to the Silent Angel N8 Network Switch is from the WiFi Disc the Chain is broken with regards to noise being transmitted along the Network cable. Am I correct in saying this? Everything sounds fantastic!
I’m also about to try the SRC-DX via USB from the Silent Angel to BNC of the DAVE.

Thank you in advance to all who chime in with their comments.


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## JTbbb

adrianm said:


> If you're not careful, this is a question that might waste you years of your life LOL.
> Some people swear by cables, some by 25k "audiophile" Pc's , there's different ways to go about it. Most of it does make a difference. *Just remember: for every cable that "improves" the sound, there's a box that does it much better and cheaper *
> 
> I've tried for years to reconcile the two sides:
> ...


Just as a counter to all the above, I am not suggesting it doesn’t improve things. I have a Innuos Zenith Mk3, MScaler, Wave Cables, DAVE. Etude 2 channel and Tube Amp headphones. All on standard power and am very happy with the sound 😀


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## zen87192

JTbbb said:


> Just as a counter to all the above, I am not suggesting it doesn’t improve things. I have a Innuos Zenith Mk3, MScaler, Wave Cables, DAVE. Etude 2 channel and Tube Amp headphones. All on standard power and am very happy with the sound 😀


Too true… here’s my ‘Lounge‘ system all on standard power out of the wall… all great and sounds fantastic.Playing out of Klipsch Forte III speakers ‘it rocks’!


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## adrianm

JTbbb said:


> Just as a counter to all the above, I am not suggesting it doesn’t improve things. I have a Innuos Zenith Mk3, MScaler, Wave Cables, DAVE. Etude 2 channel and Tube Amp headphones. All on standard power and am very happy with the sound 😀


I was happy with stock Dave +M-scaler before I tried something new. There's also the possibility that if you're using an external amp, bad power into Dave might matter less, since it has its own filtering. 
  To each his own, but I now understand why people rave about the DC4 even without hearing it, due to some tests i did, i just chose to go another way for improving Dave's 12$ psu. 
   At the end of the day, convenience matters, and replacing the M-scaler with a PC might not work for everyone, or be worth the hassle.


zen87192 said:


> Too true… here’s my ‘Lounge‘ system all on standard power out of the wall… all great and sounds fantastic.Playing out of Klipsch Forte III speakers ‘it rocks’!


Well that's probably because those have adequate PSU, as opposed to Dave.


zen87192 said:


> Am I correct in saying this? Everything sounds fantastic!
> I’m also about to try the SRC-DX via USB from the Silent Angel to BNC of the DAVE.
> 
> Thank you in advance to all who chime in with their comments.


Yep, looks great  From what I've been able to surmise and test, noise only matters at the stage when you're going from digital to analogue. It's cheaper and more efficient to cut the link as close to your dac as possible. The SRC-DX itself also has an impressive noise reduction effect. Dan says this is due to turning off Dave's internal USB chipset. Whether it's that, filtering, or a combination of both, i'm not sure, but it's one of the most noticeable upgrades to Dave when using USB. 
 What i have found is that the DC-Blocks also help more than expected. While my mains filter helps with blocking AC noise, it does nothing for stray DC currents. From what i can see they are actually just some rebranded Lab equipment filters, but at least they're not audiophile gear. Cheap enough to get a pair and try them with your BNC cables.
   Or again, with a separate headphone amp, it might not matter. But i assume you're using those 4z's plugged into Dave.


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## zen87192

Yes... plugged directly in to DAVE... the LCD-5's 😁


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## TheAttorney (May 7, 2022)

audio_1 said:


> How can the MU1 replace the Mscaler, it doesn't have a million-tap digital filter? The comparison can only me made with the Mscaler optically connected to the Dave with Opto-Dx, separate power supplies and physically separated by a few metres. With the Opto-DX, and separate power supplies the digital input on the Mscaler is irrevalant.


The longer answer is on my posts on the Grimm MU1 thread at AS.

The shorter answer is that, as part of my downsizing objective, I compared my strongly modded NUC + HMS + a mountain of cable/box spaghetti vs MU1 with a single AES cable. HMS running at 16FS, MU1 running at 4FS. The MU1 won easily. At the time, I stated that this was probably more to do with the NUC than with any limitation of the HMS itself. The BNC and USB cables were of very high quality and, sadly, also very expensive.

I also tried the HMS between MU1 and DAVE, effectively upscaling from 4FS to 16FS (also tried 1FS to 16FS). I had the spdif/RCA/BNC cable limitation in order to do this test. In this particular chain, the HMS didn't improve the SQ and in fact seemed to slightly degrade it, but it could have been a cable limitation.

My objective was achieved: I significantly reduced my cable/box spaghetti whilst increasing SQ.
I don't care what the Opto-Dx can do, as that just increases cable/box spaghetti.
I don't care what other things I could have done to make the HMS sing better in this chain. I'd spent over a year carefully tweaking my NUC + HMS chain to what I considered to be a high standard. I had the components I had and I got the result I got. YMMV.


----------



## saudio7

adrianm said:


> If you're not careful, this is a question that might waste you years of your life LOL.
> Some people swear by cables, some by 25k "audiophile" Pc's , there's different ways to go about it. Most of it does make a difference. *Just remember: for every cable that "improves" the sound, there's a box that does it much better and cheaper *
> 
> I've tried for years to reconcile the two sides:
> ...


Waiting for your feedback once you will get Isotek. I don’t use PC only streamers as source and I don’t have a problem with mscaler, maybe I don’t have best out of Dave, but that is my way.


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## Triode User

Somatic said:


> Wow.



And I think that is why Dave has stood the test of time. Going from Dave to ANY other DAC is a humbling experience (for the other DAC).


----------



## jlbrach

dave is a significantly better DAC..the TT2 offers a better headphone output for harder to drive HP's


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## nwavesailor

I hesitate to ask but............. does anyone use their iPhone (or Android) as a source?   

It is small and easy to use with my iTunes music library as well as Tidal and powered is by a battery. I have a iPad that essentially does the same thing but is obviously bulkier to use while reclined in my favorite Stressless chair.

I am ready to be torched!


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## MvRBE10

nwavesailor said:


> I hesitate to ask but............. does anyone use their iPhone (or Android) as a source?
> 
> It is small and easy to use with my iTunes music library as well as Tidal and powered is by a battery. I have a iPad that essentially does the same thing but is obviously bulkier to use while reclined in my favorite Stressless chair.
> 
> I am ready to be torched!


I sometimes stream to my aurender from my iphone, childerns spotify lists or other crap they like. For partys or casual listening its fine.


----------



## griff500

nwavesailor said:


> I hesitate to ask but............. does anyone use their iPhone (or Android) as a source?
> 
> It is small and easy to use with my iTunes music library as well as Tidal and powered is by a battery. I have a iPad that essentially does the same thing but is obviously bulkier to use while reclined in my favorite Stressless chair.
> 
> I am ready to be torched!


Go and sit in the corner and have a strong word with yourself…


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## Reactcore (May 7, 2022)

nwavesailor said:


> I hesitate to ask but............. does anyone use their iPhone (or Android) as a source?
> 
> It is small and easy to use with my iTunes music library as well as Tidal and powered is by a battery. I have a iPad that essentially does the same thing but is obviously bulkier to use while reclined in my favorite Stressless chair.
> 
> I am ready to be torched!



Android and ios both work just fine with Dave/HMS.
I use my old sock ipad2 with Netflix.
On my droid phone i watch youtube film stuff sometimes.

You should try Musi app on ios.. somehow it can take a higher bitstream from youtube (choose in settings) and no breaks for commercials only some banners which for a few $ can also be taken out.
Sounds marvelous with the right recording/shares.

Be sure your pad/phone has 3/4g off cause thats a RF generator.. Using Wifi is ok to my hearing.


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## Reactcore

Triode User said:


> I personally would put TT2 at about 50% of a stock Dave but that is ignoring the TT2 headphone output prowess because I never use headphones. That 50% assessment can be roughly translated as ‘not in the same ball park’.



I had my finger on the trigger for TT2.. but i knew in the end i would start wanting to take the final step.. so i skipped it and went straight for Dave bc now good 2nd hand offers can be found. After Rob said he hadnt start working on a Dave2 i took the plunge

No regrets 🎵😁


----------



## sm60

adrianm said:


> Looks like up sampling streamers are the latest fad. The new Lumin U2 mini seems similar, and also has USB :
> https://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-u2-mini.html


After many many comparisons of USB streaming against redbook CD with my CEC TL0, using  both my Dave/Blu2 and with a Lampi server/Pacific DAC, I have come to agree with Rob’s assessment. USB simply sucks. It just doesn’t have the life or verve that SPDIF based Redbook CD has using a top notch transport. I don‘t understand why, I’m guessing it’s all the extra preprocessing that you have to do with USB asynchronous protocol. I was hoping Lampi’s own DSD SuperKomputer with its huge linear power supply might narrow the gap. It has not. Folks who own the ultra Uber Taiko Extreme 100 pound server with its highly customized USB card say it’s the bees knees, but that’s a made to order highly pricey server with a long turnaround time, especially these days with supply chain problems. How about the Innuous USB reclocker? Anyone have good luck with that? I like the convenience of streaming and the vast pool of music, but I wish it didn’t sound so compressed, especially through Roon.


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## sm60

Triode User said:


> And I think that is why Dave has stood the test of time. Going from Dave to ANY other DAC is a humbling experience (for the other DAC).


Grump, not my experience comparing my Dave with my Lampi Pacific, but you have to remember that with the Lampi, you’re introducing tubes into the mix, especially humongous direct heated triodes. Just trying out what might be the most massive triode tube I’ve ever tried, the KR T-100 (crazy pic attached). This monster is however a gentle giant: music simply oozes out of it in a very unforced way. You can tune the Lampi in ways you can’t tune the Dave. For example, with the KR 242 tube, the Pacific is a dynamic powerhouse that simply stomps all over the Dave in terms of sheer slam bang dynamics (stock Dave, I caution to add!). But you have the obvious drawbacks with tubes. Some NOS triode tubes are very pricey (e.g., a quartet of NOS Western Electric 300Bs made 70-80 years ago can cost as much as the Dave!). But there are very cheap 300Bs you can buy for $100 or so. The Lampi is massive, 10 times larger than the Dave. Costs twice as much. So, no, I’m not suggesting this is a simple trade off. But if you want to hear a distinctly superior sound in ways that I believe only tubes can deliver, there’s no beating the Lampi. But if you don‘t like tubes, I agree, the Dave is a wunderkind of a solid state DAC that should hold its own for years to come.


----------



## F208Frank

adrianm said:


> If you're not careful, this is a question that might waste you years of your life LOL.
> Some people swear by cables, some by 25k "audiophile" Pc's , there's different ways to go about it. Most of it does make a difference. *Just remember: for every cable that "improves" the sound, there's a box that does it much better and cheaper *
> 
> I've tried for years to reconcile the two sides:
> ...


For your option A, regarding using power conditioning, do you find that plugging your amp direct into the wall yielded best results?

Do you fall in camp of plugging everything into the conditioner or only your digital components: streamer, dac, reclockers, etc.


----------



## Triode User

sm60 said:


> Grump, not my experience comparing my Dave with my Lampi Pacific, but you have to remember that with the Lampi, you’re introducing tubes into the mix, especially humongous direct heated triodes. Just trying out what might be the most massive triode tube I’ve ever tried, the KR T-100 (crazy pic attached). This monster is however a gentle giant: music simply oozes out of it in a very unforced way. You can tune the Lampi in ways you can’t tune the Dave. For example, with the KR 242 tube, the Pacific is a dynamic powerhouse that simply stomps all over the Dave in terms of sheer slam bang dynamics (stock Dave, I caution to add!). But you have the obvious drawbacks with tubes. Some NOS triode tubes are very pricey (e.g., a quartet of NOS Western Electric 300Bs made 70-80 years ago can cost as much as the Dave!). But there are very cheap 300Bs you can buy for $100 or so. The Lampi is massive, 10 times larger than the Dave. Costs twice as much. So, no, I’m not suggesting this is a simple trade off. But if you want to hear a distinctly superior sound in ways that I believe only tubes can deliver, there’s no beating the Lampi. But if you don‘t like tubes, I agree, the Dave is a wunderkind of a solid state DAC that should hold its own for years to come.


But I do like valves (tubes if you wish) hence ‘Triode User’ and my piccy and had them in my system for more than 35 years. So I am no stranger to valves in both the signal and power parts of the system. The longest serving were my power amps (Audio Innovations Second Audio 2A3 monos with external Border Patrol valve rectified power supplies) which saw service for 25 years and then after that came Border Patrol 300B and finally the best IMO which were Icon Audio push pull MB845M Mk2 monos. Pre amps were a mixture but mostly revolved around 12AU7 and 6SN7 valves. The latter being my favourite.

I really enjoyed all of them and the character of music which they produced. It was highly engaging.

And yet, gradually the Dave started a journey to wean me off all the valves in my system as I came to appreciate that with the right ss amplification one could have all the engagement and character that gave me delight but this time it came from the music rather than the colour added by the valves.

I admit that a large part of the delight has only been made available by upgrading the Dave with a Sean Jacobs power supply which has made the whole combination more musical but I am entirely happy that the music coming from my system is now much more enjoyable that at any point when I had valves.

Just as you have not heard an upgraded Dave, I have not heard a Lampi Pacific and so cannot make any comment as to how that might sound in comparison but in general terms I have no inclination to get back into the world of valves despite the many enjoyable years. Also, I am enjoying the sound of my system so much that I have very little inclination to go in search of alternatives (I do anticipate changing my Mscaler for the promised Choral range Scaler but that is the only change I have in mind). That is not to say I will not listen to a Lampi Pacific if I stumble across one, just that you might understand why I will not be on the phone to a dealer on Monday morning asking if I can borrow one.


----------



## alxw0w

Triode User said:


> all the engagement and character that gave me delight but this time it came from the music rather than the colour added by the valves.


This.
Just I would change last valves with word gear/unit.
Engagement should be from music not particular unit. But in our world 99% of.the time that's not the case. People are chasing wrong rabbit.


----------



## adrianm (May 8, 2022)

F208Frank said:


> For your option A, regarding using power conditioning, do you find that plugging your amp direct into the wall yielded best results?
> 
> Do you fall in camp of plugging everything into the conditioner or only your digital components: streamer, dac, reclockers, etc.


When i did have the HPA4 here (for a demo) i plugged it into the high current sockets just to be sure. As it only draws 30w, I'm not sure a good power conditioner could limit a headphone amp. I've heard no differences between the normal and the high current plugs with Dave, besides the fact that it sounded a bit...dirtier and more grainy, closer to the wall power.  With headphones, I wouldn't worry about that.
  In theory, I would filter everything that has a non-galvanically isolated connection to analogue stages, as that's where the noise actually does the damage. I know some people disagree, but I see no reason why 100% digital components would benefit from noise reduction themselves if properly designed. Case in point : comparing my streamer to my PC via Optical into Dave/M-scaler, I can find no difference, though I did fool myself thinking there was one when I first got the streamer, before switching to SPDIF.
    That said, I've just concluded a failed experiment (For B) where I tried to replace my Aquarius with the Intona Usb Isolator + SRC-DX + DC blocks, so clearly, I don't have it all figured out . The effects are cumulative, but, keeping the Aquarius in this chain still makes most of the difference. This is frustrating because I'm trying really hard to get rid of this huge box under my desk.


----------



## audio_1 (May 8, 2022)

TheAttorney said:


> The longer answer is on my posts on the Grimm MU1 thread at AS.
> 
> The shorter answer is that, as part of my downsizing objective, I compared my strongly modded NUC + HMS + a mountain of cable/box spaghetti vs MU1 with a single AES cable. HMS running at 16FS, MU1 running at 4FS. The MU1 won easily. At the time, I stated that this was probably more to do with the NUC than with any limitation of the HMS itself. The BNC and USB cables were of very high quality and, sadly, also very expensive.
> 
> ...


Certainly the MU1 is a much tidier solution, than the 8 boxes, 4 BNC cables, 2 USB cables and 2 optical cables that I have! 1. Intel NUC running Roon, 2. Ferrum Hypos power supply, 3. Intona 7055-B (full capacitive and galvanic isolation), 4. Blu2, 5. Opto DXT, 6. IFI Ipower, 7. Opto DXR, 8. Farad Super3. I also have separate power conditioners, dedicated power supply cables (routed as far apart as possible in the attic) and Gigawatt MCBs in the consumer unit for the digital and analogue parts of the system. With the above and the Dave and power amps physically separated by over 3 metres, there is absolute no RF noise or brightness in my system. The spaghetti as well as eliminating RF noise also enables positioning only the Dave and power amps between the loudspeakers and the digital source components at the side of my listening room.
Hopefully the new Choral Mscaler will have optical connections so that in future it can be optically connected to Dave 2.


----------



## audio_1 (May 8, 2022)

adrianm said:


> I tried to replace my Aquarius with the Intona Usb Isolator


Which Intona Usb Isolator did you try? Only the 7055-B provides full capacitive and galvanic isolation as far as I know. Distance is the only other thing you didn't try.


----------



## adrianm (May 8, 2022)

sm60 said:


> After many many comparisons of USB streaming against redbook CD with my CEC TL0, using  both my Dave/Blu2 and with a Lampi server/Pacific DAC, I have come to agree with Rob’s assessment. USB simply sucks. It just doesn’t have the life or verve that SPDIF based Redbook CD has using a top notch transport. I don‘t understand why, I’m guessing it’s all the extra preprocessing that you have to do with USB asynchronous protocol. I was hoping Lampi’s own DSD SuperKomputer with its huge linear power supply might narrow the gap. It has not. Folks who own the ultra Uber Taiko Extreme 100 pound server with its highly customized USB card say it’s the bees knees, but that’s a made to order highly pricey server with a long turnaround time, especially these days with supply chain problems. How about the Innuous USB reclocker? Anyone have good luck with that? I like the convenience of streaming and the vast pool of music, but I wish it didn’t sound so compressed, especially through Roon.


I definitely agree that Chord's USB implementation at least, is terrible. Which is why the SRC-DX is borderline magical. Yes, that's  the reason why I went down the USB path though, is due to it being the only format that allows me to output up-sampled 24 bit 768 khz data to the SRC-DX.
   Upsampling+ noise reduction is the only "cure" I've found for the compression you're describing. I was close to getting the Innuos, but I'm very skeptical that what it does so well is due to re-clocking. USB audio just doesn't work like SPDIF. Any improvements people hear are most likely due to the clean power provided by the Phoenix. Even if it did somehow matter, the SRC-DX's clock would override that when converting USB to dual SPDIF.
   Add to that Dave's very high jitter resistance, and the Intona USB isolator + mains filter makes more sense. I've also tried SOTM TX Ultra USB + Farad LPSU our of the same conditioner in front of the SRC-DX, and frankly all it did was add noise. It sounded much worse, which is why I now prefer a chain with as few PSU's as possible, so I've given up on auditioning the Phoenix. I believe @edwardsean  can offer a counter-argument here though.
     I realize having a PC in your system might not work for everyone, which is why paying a premium for a tidy solution like the Grimm, or another up-sampling streamer might make sense. The Grimm seems overpriced and underpowered Imo, but they were first out the gate, so that counts for something. This is clearly the direction the industry is going, however I would wait for more capable solutions.
  Why I would prefer the Lumin (besides being 5x cheaper, though that's their entry level offering) is due to it being able to support much higher sampling rates. I wouldn't be surprised if it could beat the Grimm in combination with an SRC-DX. This of course depends on the quality of the up-sampling algorithms used by each, but I'm definitely auditioning one as soon as possible.
   Chord isn't the only game in town anymore, and using HQP confirmed that the software is what makes most of the difference(for good or bad), not our fiddling around.


----------



## adrianm (May 8, 2022)

audio_1 said:


> Which Intona Usb Isolator did you try? Only the 7055-B provides full capacitive and galvanic isolation as far as I know. Distance is the only other thing you didn't try.


7055-C. There is no mention of functional differences I could find. They say it's better suited for low-noise applications
"
*What is the difference from the other USB isolators?*
The 7055-B version support a high 5kV signal and power isolation and 20kV ESD protection. For audio usage you generally don’t need as much as 5kV so you can consider the 7055-C model that is similar to the 7055-B but also supports SuperSpeed and has a lower ultra low noise DC supply.
"


----------



## adrianm

audio_1 said:


> Distance is the only other thing you didn't try.


I did, my M-scaler is now 10km + away with another owner


----------



## Somatic

Looking to get a Dave. Wondering if you guys have any independent dealers I can get one for a good price … please PM me. 

I know of one but wondering if that’s the best deal I can get. Appreciate any help. Thanks.


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> Looking to get a Dave. Wondering if you guys have any independent dealers I can get one for a good price … please PM me.
> 
> I know of one but wondering if that’s the best deal I can get. Appreciate any help. Thanks.


The DAVE is built like a tank and, save something truly awful happening to it, is more or less indestructible.

You should be able to buy a second hand unit with confidence in a private sale at a good price.


----------



## Somatic

edwardsean said:


> I'm exclusively headphones, because, as I mentioned, we all have "what life allows." I would very much like to be a speakers guy, but the people around me don't want that for me. It is to my great sadness that they matter more to me than audio.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the awesome review. If one plans to use the stock Dave directly with a more sensitive headphone, such as T + A Solitaire P is this the best combo to get end game transparency? In your review it seemed you liked Bartok more but in the end you went with Dave because it was more lifelike? You mentioned it was skeletal as well? Debating on getting Bartok vs Dave. I don’t think I would get Mscaler, wave cables, lps etc


----------



## Triode User

Somatic said:


> Looking to get a Dave. Wondering if you guys have any independent dealers I can get one for a good price … please PM me.
> 
> I know of one but wondering if that’s the best deal I can get. Appreciate any help. Thanks.


Consider a second hand Dave. i would have no hesitation in buying one (in fact I did and have been very happy with it).


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> Thanks for the awesome review. If one plans to use the stock Dave directly with a more sensitive headphone, such as T + A Solitaire P is this the best combo to get end game transparency?


FWIW, I do believe that's true. A couple of week back I thought the HPA4+Dave were better than direct Dave in some respects (maybe very slightly larger soundstage, a bit tighter bass) , but really not worth adding in the end.
   I went with the Meze Elite over the LCD-5, as I found its slightly thicker sound (Not Empyrean thick) and musicality played well with Dave.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Somatic said:


> Thanks for the awesome review. If one plans to use the stock Dave directly with a more sensitive headphone, such as T + A Solitaire P is this the best combo to get end game transparency? In your review it seemed you liked Bartok more but in the end you went with Dave because it was more lifelike? You mentioned it was skeletal as well? Debating on getting Bartok vs Dave. I don’t think I would get Mscaler, wave cables, lps etc



If transparency is the sole thing you prioritize, I'd say yes. I've tested quite a few sensitive headphones with high quality amps and in cases there are other aspects of sound that were superior. But in any event, unless I had those amps on hand for use with harder to drive headphones, I would just stick with the Dave. It performs really well with efficient headphones, so it just makes it not really worth the bother/price imo.


----------



## Somatic

saudio7 said:


> Don’t buy expensive BNC cables, the key are ferrits, so just good quality BNC and around 20 or more ferrits.


Any cables you
Recommend?


----------



## chesebert

saudio7 said:


> Don’t buy expensive BNC cables, the key are ferrits, so just good quality BNC and around 20 or more ferrits.


This sounds like a bunch of BS to me, to be honest. How the heck do these things reduce EMI without corresponding capacitors to create  LPF? Someone enlighten me here.


----------



## iDesign

saudio7 said:


> Don’t buy expensive BNC cables, the key are ferrits, so just good quality BNC and around 20 or more ferrits.


Agreed. I found that the expensive BNC cables with ferrites popularized in this forum were improperly constructed and caused significant problems with my DAVE. The $7.49 original equipment 2m Pro Signal RG59 cables with ferrites yielded significantly better performance.


----------



## griff500

iDesign said:


> Agreed. I found that the expensive BNC cables with ferrites popularized in this forum were improperly constructed and caused significant problems with my DAVE. The $7.49 original equipment 2m Pro Signal RG59 cables with ferrites yielded significantly better performance.


Would you care to share how they are 'improperly constructed'?

Which ferrites did you use and how did you determine that performance was significantly better?


----------



## griff500

chesebert said:


> This sounds like a bunch of BS to me, to be honest. How the heck do these things reduce EMI without corresponding capacitors to create  LPF? Someone enlighten me here.


I thought the effects of ferrites were very well established.


----------



## iDesign (May 9, 2022)

griff500 said:


> Would you care to share how they are 'improperly constructed'?
> 
> Which ferrites did you use and how did you determine that performance was significantly better?


We’ve discussed ferrites many times I‘m sure most members are tired of it and don’t wish to revisit the discussion. I previously posted the information in this thread as did many others. I determined the basic cables were better because they worked while the other cables in question caused severe audio distortion and the display behaved erratically.


----------



## griff500

iDesign said:


> We’ve discussed ferrites many times I‘m sure most members are tired of it and don’t wish to revisit the discussion. I previously posted the information in this thread as did many others. I determined the basic cables were better because they worked while the other cables in question caused severe audio distortion and the display behaved erratically.


I do not recall the discussion and I hadn't heard of anyone else having issues with the display or experiencing 'severe audio distortion'. My experience and that of everyone else I have seen has been positive.

Maybe we are discussing different cables...

I assume you returned your cables for a refund.


----------



## chesebert

griff500 said:


> I thought the effects of ferrites were very well established.


It’s like a weak inductor with broader attenuation of MHz level frequencies. I am still puzzled at why you would want to attenuate high frequency components of bunch of square waves. I think over engineered shielding is where you should put your engineering dollar at in a digital cable and not attenuation of high frequency waves. Anyway this whole ferrites on digital cable puzzles me.


----------



## griff500

chesebert said:


> It’s like a weak inductor with broader attenuation of MHz level frequencies. I am still puzzled at why you would want to attenuate high frequency components of bunch of square waves. I think over engineered shielding is where you should put your engineering dollar at in a digital cable and not attenuation of high frequency waves. Anyway this whole ferrites on digital cable puzzles me.


You may be puzzled but it does work.


----------



## chesebert

griff500 said:


> You may be puzzled but it does work.


Whatever “work” means I guess. You may just like the objectively worse signal because it made your dac sound a certain way.  Did you run the cable through oscilloscope and determine better square wave property by using ferrites?


----------



## griff500

chesebert said:


> Whatever “work” means I guess. You may just like the objectively worse signal because it made your dac sound a certain way.  Did you run the cable through oscilloscope and determine better square wave property by using ferrites?


I'm sure everyone, including Rob Watts, is wrong and we all just prefer the results of a worse signal. 

I don't use an oscilloscope - I've only got speakers and headphones.


----------



## chesebert

griff500 said:


> I'm sure everyone, including Rob Watts, is wrong and we all just prefer the results of a worse signal.
> 
> I don't use an oscilloscope - I've only got speakers and headphones.


Chord is recommending ferrites on BNC cables for their dacs? I didn’t know that. I will remember to ask them when I see them at shows. 

I honestly don’t know any other dac manufacturer recommending the same thing.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

iDesign said:


> I determined the basic cables were better because they worked while the other cables in question caused severe audio distortion and the display behaved erratically.


I've used M Scaler almost each day for two years and never had any problems with ferried cables. Neither with DIY, nor with Wave Storm. The only defective cable I've ever come across was one of the two stock cables included with the HMS.


----------



## griff500

chesebert said:


> Chord is recommending ferrites on BNC cables for their dacs? I didn’t know that. I will remember to ask them when I see them at shows.
> 
> I honestly don’t know any other dac manufacturer recommending the same thing.


Not what I said, but don’t let that stop you trolling. 🙄


----------



## iDesign (May 9, 2022)

Ragnar-BY said:


> I've used M Scaler almost each day for two years and never had any problems with ferried cables. Neither with DIY, nor with Wave Storm. The only defective cable I've ever come across was one of the two stock cables included with the HMS.


Little do you know, the cables have in fact caused damage and at least one DAVE was returned to Chord for repairs. You can contact them directly to verify the situation.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

chesebert said:


> You may just like the objectively worse signal because it made your dac sound a certain way. Did you run the cable through oscilloscope and determine better square wave property by using ferrites?


Nobody ever said that ferrites are intended to make "a better square wave". Ferrites were intended to supress interference generated by FPGAs. And Rob told a hundred times in this and other topics how RF interference affects the operation of the DAC.


----------



## griff500

iDesign said:


> Little do you know, the cables have in fact caused damage and at least one DAVE was returned to Chord for repairs. You can contact them directly to verify the situation.


Surely it’s beholden on you to prove your statements.

I still don’t see the ’many others’ that you said have posted about this.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

iDesign said:


> the cables have in fact caused damage and at least one DAVE was returned to Chord for repairs


The only way I know to damage the DAC with a cable is a short circuit. This theoretically can happen due to problems understandable to everyone: poor soldering or crimping, mechanical damage to the cable or connector. It has nothing to do with ferrites.

How can inductance added to a cable by a ferrite damage anything?


----------



## griff500

Ragnar-BY said:


> The only way I know to damage the DAC with a cable is a short circuit. This theoretically can happen due to problems understandable to everyone: poor soldering or crimping, mechanical damage to the cable or connector. It has nothing to do with ferrites.
> 
> How can inductance added to a cable by a ferrite damage anything?


He is claiming they are not constructed correctly…


----------



## MarkusBarkus

iDesign said:


> at least one DAVE was returned to Chord for repairs


...if you note the damage was to a connector, that I would believe. Some of the cables are heavy and should be supported or otherwise managed. 

That said, in my reading, you are implying there was "electronic" damage, to use that term. Can you reveal what damage was caused to this single Dave? Thanks for your tremendous help reducing potential damage to the beloved Dave!


----------



## Somatic

Wondering how many Watts the SE headphone out for the Dave is vs TT2 in high gain mode? For the TT2 its 7.3 W RMS 8Ω. How about the Dave? Thanks.

*P.S. - feel free to PM if you have a good Chord Dealer as well. Appreciate it.


----------



## alxw0w

Somatic said:


> Wondering how many Watts the SE headphone out for the Dave is vs TT2 in high gain mode? For the TT2 its 7.3 W RMS 8Ω. How about the Dave? Thanks.
> 
> *P.S. - feel free to PM if you have a good Chord Dealer as well. Appreciate it.


Here you have.


----------



## alxw0w

As for damaging Dave with ferrited cables. Never heard of anything like that. I'm using Wave Storms for quite some time without any problems at all.

The only thing that I could think of it's their weight. And that can potentially damage connector if you are not careful enough.


----------



## Somatic (May 9, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> Here you have.


I see. So at 8 ohms TT2 is providing 7.3 W vs Dave's 2.1 W? Wow, surprised how much less Watts the Dave provides. Less than 3.5x power than TT2?


----------



## iDesign (Jun 25, 2022)

MarkusBarkus said:


> ...if you note the damage was to a connector, that I would believe. Some of the cables are heavy and should be supported or otherwise managed.
> 
> That said, in my reading, you are implying there was "electronic" damage, to use that term. Can you reveal what damage was caused to this single Dave? Thanks for your tremendous help reducing potential damage to the beloved Dave!


According to Chord, they also found the center pins of the DAVE BNC connectors have been damaged by the cables. In my instance, the defective cables caused the electrical issues I previously described and they were removed before potentially damaging my unit as well. The problems were most severe at 705.6kHz setting likely because the cables likely aren’t made to meet the 75Ω standard or had other gross errors in the assembly. The issue was present in both cables regardless of the configuration. *We can be certain the cables were faulty because the issue was resolved by using different brand name cables that were properly constructed. *You can certainly contact Chord for the same information I received from them.

Note: On May 11, 2022 Triode User made a clap-back edit to his post below trying to address the address the issue of center pin damage. I want to point out that I have always used the correct Pro-Signal BNC cables supplied by Chord with my DAVE. The issue with the cables in question persisted no matter which direction they were orientated or BNC inputs/outputs used. I also tested with a pair of Chord Company cables and there was no issue with them or the Pro-Signal cables. We can definitively conclude the cables in question were faulty. ###


----------



## Ragnar-BY (May 9, 2022)

griff500 said:


> He is claiming they are not constructed correctly…


Ah, ok. I misunderstood. Although I would still like to know what exactly was wrong there. There are only two options: either one of the conductors did not have contact (should not damage the DAC) or there was a short circuit between the signal conductor and the screen (I don’t know if the DAC has input protection or not).


----------



## Somatic

Is the Choral Stand for looks and if one wants to get Etude etc?

Is the rumor that Chord will eventually release a Digital Amp so keep the transparency intact?


----------



## alxw0w

Ragnar-BY said:


> Ah, ok. I misunderstood. Although I would still like to know what exactly was wrong there. There are only two options: either one of the conductors did not have contact (should not damage the DAC) or there was a short circuit between the signal conductor and the screen (I don’t know if the DAC has input protection or not).


I'm not sure if even shorting cable with spdif signal is going to damage something as the voltage for spdif is low (0,2-0,6v and current about 8mA) - but I might be wrong on that.


----------



## iDesign (May 9, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Is the Choral Stand for looks and if one wants to get Etude etc?
> 
> Is the rumor that Chord will eventually release a Digital Amp so keep the transparency intact?


The Choral Enable Stands are entirely cosmetic and they are not advertised with any benefits for vibration/isolation. The odd angled design of the stands raises the rear inputs/outputs and can place even more force on the connectors if heavy cables are not supported.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

alxw0w said:


> I'm not sure if even shorting cable with spdif signal is going to damage something as the voltage for spdif is low (0,2-0,6v and current about 8mA) - but I might be wrong on that.


Yes, I think so too. It was just the only more or less realistic assumption.


----------



## audio_1

Ragnar-BY said:


> Nobody ever said that ferrites are intended to make "a better square wave". Ferrites were intended to supress interference generated by FPGAs. And Rob told a hundred times in this and other topics how RF interference affects the operation of the DAC.


RF interference affects the operation of "*the"* DAC. I think is important to note that the *"the"* should be *"a"* DAC or *"any" *DAC. RF interference affects most DACs, not only Chord DACs. The advantage of Chord DACs is that optical inputs can be used to eliminate RF noise as Chord DACs are inherently immune to jitter. RF noise can come from many sources, not just FPGAs


----------



## chesebert

audio_1 said:


> RF interference affects the operation of "*the"* DAC. I think is important to note that the *"the"* should be *"a"* DAC or *"any" *DAC. RF interference affects most DACs, not only Chord DACs. The advantage of Chord DACs is that optical inputs can be used to eliminate RF noise as Chord DACs are inherently immune to jitter. RF noise can come from many sources, not just FPGAs


I don't see how adding common mode inductance to a cable helps with cleaning RF inside any dac. RF on the cable shielding will be grounded at the input. Adding high level of inductance to a cable will make rounded corner square waves (like they are even square to begin with). 

I think better built BNC cable is way more effective than putting bunch of ferrites on a mediocre cable.


----------



## Birdboy01

Wave Storm cables... SQ is a component-level upgrade.


----------



## Sampajanna

iDesign said:


> The Choral Enable Stands are entirely cosmetic and they are not advertised with any benefits for vibration/isolation. The odd angled design of the stands raises the rear inputs/outputs and can place even more force on the connectors if heavy cables are not supported.


I disagree. I find it does [rovide vibration isolation. How could it not? It has good feet and pads for the dac which no hangs off the rack. My A/B showed benefits YMMV


----------



## nwavesailor (May 9, 2022)

Birdboy01 said:


> Wave Storm cables... SQ is a component-level upgrade.


NICE!

I went from Stream to Storm and found them both quite good. Not day and night difference for me since the Streams were no slouch but a very nice upgrade.


----------



## Sampajanna

I also have had no problem with my Wavestorm cables and love them.


----------



## iDesign (May 10, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> I disagree. I find it does [rovide vibration isolation. How could it not? It has good feet and pads for the dac which no hangs off the rack. My A/B showed benefits YMMV


The feet were not specifically engineered to reduce vibration and Chord simply describes them as, “non-slip rubber feet.” They go on to state:

_"Your Choral system deserves to be appreciated. Each and every component has been meticulously designed from the ground up with unrivalled build quality, flexibility, and aesthetics in mind so why not display your system in style with the Ensemble Stand system._​​_Whether you have a single component, or a partial or full Choral system, we’ve created the Ensemble stand to be a modular affair and, stereotypically Chord, tank proof. Simply place your Dave, Blue, or whatever it may be, within the slanted guide for a secure friction fit. Likewise, there’s no worrying about whether the height of the Ensemble Stand will work for your system, because when you place your order we will custom fix the height to your requirements, and there’s a range of colour options available"_​
The stands are cosmetic and it’s obvious they were never designed with vibration in mind. Fasinating you "A/B" tested that.


----------



## Triode User (May 11, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> As for damaging Dave with ferrited cables. Never heard of anything like that. I'm using Wave Storms for quite some time without any problems at all.
> 
> The only thing that I could think of it's their weight. And that can potentially damage connector if you are not careful enough.


Thanks.

It is perfectly possible to damage the bnc inputs on any dac if one is ham fisted in the way cables are inserted, no matter what make of cable. This damage is usually achieved by inserting the cable at a slight angle rather than being perfectly straight.

Once properly inserted and screwed on, the bnc socket / plug combination is very robust (indeed that is the whole point of the locking design) and the centre connector is very effectively isolated from any external forces.

I always emphasise the importance of inserting the bnc cables absolutely straight and not to use any force at all to push the cable into the socket. They should just slide in without any force. If the cables do not slide on easily then stop, take the cable out and start again making sure they are perfectly straight. If any damage is to occur it will almost certainly be during the process of inserting the cables rather than after they are connected and can easily happen to any make of cable if insufficient care is taken.

Also if *any* bnc cable is forced into the chassis socket at a slight angle it might bend the centre pin on the bnc cable. If this bent pin is not noticed it will likely damage the centre part of the bnc socket the next time the cable is plugged into a socket.

People do all sorts of stupid things and then try to blame it on someone else. Mind you, there are also some pretty badly made bnc cable connectors around.



chesebert said:


> I don't see how adding common mode inductance to a cable helps with cleaning RF inside any dac. RF on the cable shielding will be grounded at the input. Adding high level of inductance to a cable will make rounded corner square waves (like they are even square to begin with).
> 
> I think better built BNC cable is way more effective than putting bunch of ferrites on a mediocre cable.



RF noise is the bane of many DACs, not just Chord. Matters are not helped by the plethora of RF emitting devices in most domestic settings. Even a small amount of RF noise getting into the analogue stage of a DAC can cause easily heard inter modulation distortion. Rob Watts has many times posted on here advocating using ferrites to mitigate this, first with clip on ferrites for use with the Blu Mk2 and then using solid core cylindrical ferrites with the Mscaler. It is precisely because it is common mode node noise that the ferrites work. Obviously one needs to use ferrites that stay well away from the digital signal frequency but that target frequency can be achieved and fine tuned by the choice of the ferrites and also by the spacing and number of ferrites. Head Fi members have achieved good results with DIY versions but as RW points out in his experience the clip on ferrites do not seem to work well with the Mscaler and instead he recommends using solid core ones.

A typical post from Rob Watts discussing this is in this *link*.



chesebert said:


> Chord is recommending ferrites on BNC cables for their dacs? I didn’t know that. I will remember to ask them when I see them at shows.
> 
> I honestly don’t know any other dac manufacturer recommending the same thing.



Perhaps not Chord but certainly the designer of their digital products. However this is certainly not a matter of him saying that ferrites are required for the DAC to work properly, far from it because all of Rob’s DACs sound amazing in stock form with no tinkering or ferrites required. Rather it is a matter of, in Rob’s words, 'the icing on the cake'. But then sometimes the icing on the cake contributes to that final layer of enjoyment.

I am guessing that you are just having a bit of fun stirring things up but there is a small chance of misinformation being taken in by others hence wanting to put the record straight. By the way, I cannot see on your profile which Chord DAC you own. Is it a Dave? If so I am surprised you have not picked up on the other icing on the Dave cake which is to replace its smps with either a Sean Jacobs LPS or the recently announced Farad. Mind you that icing on the cake is definitely not endorsed by Rob Watts despite its popularity with Dave owners!

Edit. 11 May 2022.  Users should also beware of some bnc cables which have a larger than normal centre pin diameter. If used these can enlarge the centre connection in the socket and then if cables are subsequently used with the correct diameter centre pin the connection will often be faulty with multiple drop outs. In these circumstances it is the correct cable which will appear to be the faulty one because of the drop outs whereas in reality is is the out of spec cable which has caused the problem. Reinserting the out of spec cable will sometimes confuse matters because the problem will appear to go away.


----------



## griff500

Triode User said:


> I am guessing that you are just having a bit of fun stirring things up but there is a small chance of misinformation being taken in by others hence wanting to put the record straight. By the way, I cannot see on your profile which Chord DAC you own. Is it a Dave?


He doesn't own one and, apparently, doesn't even like it (no idea if he's heard it though). That leaves only one reason for bothering to post in the Dave forum... For some people this sort of behaviour passes for entertainment. 🙄


----------



## griff500

iDesign said:


> The feet were not specifically engineered to reduce vibration and Chord simply describes them as, “non-slip rubber feet.” They go on to state:
> 
> _"Your Choral system deserves to be appreciated. Each and every component has been meticulously designed from the ground up with unrivalled build quality, flexibility, and aesthetics in mind so why not display your system in style with the Ensemble Stand system._​​_Whether you have a single component, or a partial or full Choral system, we’ve created the Ensemble stand to be a modular affair and, stereotypically Chord, tank proof. Simply place your Dave, Blue, or whatever it may be, within the slanted guide for a secure friction fit. Likewise, there’s no worrying about whether the height of the Ensemble Stand will work for your system, because when you place your order we will custom fix the height to your requirements, and there’s a range of colour options available"_​
> The stands are cosmetic and it’s obvious they were never designed with vibration in mind. Fasinating you "A/B" tested that.


Not being designed to do something does not mean it cannot have some benefits. IKEA happen to make some good vibration reducing products... That is fascinating.


----------



## Sampajanna

iDesign said:


> The feet were not specifically engineered to reduce vibration and Chord simply describes them as, “non-slip rubber feet.” They go on to state:
> 
> _"Your Choral system deserves to be appreciated. Each and every component has been meticulously designed from the ground up with unrivalled build quality, flexibility, and aesthetics in mind so why not display your system in style with the Ensemble Stand system._​​_Whether you have a single component, or a partial or full Choral system, we’ve created the Ensemble stand to be a modular affair and, stereotypically Chord, tank proof. Simply place your Dave, Blue, or whatever it may be, within the slanted guide for a secure friction fit. Likewise, there’s no worrying about whether the height of the Ensemble Stand will work for your system, because when you place your order we will custom fix the height to your requirements, and there’s a range of colour options available"_​
> The stands are cosmetic and it’s obvious they were never designed with vibration in mind. Fasinating you "A/B" tested that.


Yes, I knew that, but useful info. I am sure other specifically-designed products would isolate better, but it does isolate. I added isoacoustics to mine as well


----------



## NYanakiev

Has anyone tried the new Abyss Diana TC with their DAVE? Wondering if it will be a good pairing without an external amp.
I tried the Diana Phi with DAVE and thought it sounded nothing short of excellent. Cheers.


----------



## ZappaMan

Latest blow in, I’m playing from mscaler to Dave, dual Bnc from
Mscaler to ports 1,2, but the sample rate is slurring or the music is slowing down then going faster again , is there a way to configure so that it doesn’t do this?


----------



## Triode User

ZappaMan said:


> Latest blow in, I’m playing from mscaler to Dave, dual Bnc from
> Mscaler to ports 1,2, but the sample rate is slurring or the music is slowing down then going faster again , is there a way to configure so that it doesn’t do this?


Sorry, I haven't come across that. Is the world slowing down on its axis of spin and then speeding up? Are you sure you are not in a Sci-Fi film?

Or try the usual, power everything down and then back on again? But you have probably done that. Change the BNC inouts on the Dave to 3 and 4 just to see (but it shouldn't make any difference). After that I'm stumped.


----------



## alxw0w

ZappaMan said:


> Latest blow in, I’m playing from mscaler to Dave, dual Bnc from
> Mscaler to ports 1,2, but the sample rate is slurring or the music is slowing down then going faster again , is there a way to configure so that it doesn’t do this?


I'm not sure if I understand that one, could you explain more?

I'm experiencing slowing down of the music or it's getting faster at the beginning of the track when there is change of sample rate.
I'm using optical hence when jumping through different tracks with different sample rates I'm experiencing this. But it's only like 1 second of the track at the beginning.


----------



## ZappaMan

Triode User said:


> Sorry, I haven't come across that. Is the world slowing down on its axis of spin and then speeding up? Are you sure you are not in a Sci-Fi film?
> 
> Or try the usual, power everything down and then back on again? But you have probably done that. Change the BNC inouts on the Dave to 3 and 4 just to see (but it shouldn't make any difference). After that I'm stumped.


Thanks, I had a loose optical connection coming out of my matrix spdif2…. Im surprised it can be loose…


----------



## ZappaMan

alxw0w said:


> I'm not sure if I understand that one, could you explain more?
> 
> I'm experiencing slowing down of the music or it's getting faster at the beginning of the track when there is change of sample rate.
> I'm using optical hence when jumping through different tracks with different sample rates I'm experiencing this. But it's only like 1 second of the track at the beginning.


It was similar to that issue but can happen through out the track.


----------



## alxw0w

ZappaMan said:


> It was similar to that issue but can happen through out the track.


Hmm how is m scaler connected to your pc/streamer/source?
Toslink?


----------



## ZappaMan

alxw0w said:


> Hmm how is m scaler connected to your pc/streamer/source?
> Toslink?


Pc -> usb -> matrix spdif2 (ddc) -> optical -> mscaler 

Dave does have more of everything lol, but def has deeper bass, nearly jumped out of my seat when the bass came in. But lots of spaciousness coming through in my ether 2.

Feels like everything’s turned up to 11 lol


----------



## alxw0w

ZappaMan said:


> Pc -> usb -> matrix spdif2 (ddc) -> optical -> mscaler
> 
> Dave does have more of everything lol, but def has deeper bass, nearly jumped out of my seat when the bass came in. But lots of spaciousness coming through in my ether 2.
> 
> Feels like everything’s turned up to 11 lol


Try direct connection pc -> usb to m scaler, just as a debug route. It should work without issues.
If direct connection using usb works there is problem either with toslink cable (faulty, not inserted properly etc.) or with matrix ddc.

Definitely there is something with toslink/matrix ddc, signal is being interrupted, somehow sample rate is being changed (or signal being lost for fraction of a second) that's why you hear this nastiness.


----------



## ZappaMan (May 11, 2022)

I see Elvis




I think the stunning thing about Dave is the realism of vocals, strange how much more real they sound.


----------



## ZappaMan

Sorry to ask, how do you get the screen to auto switch off?


----------



## sm60

Sampajanna said:


> I also have had no problem with my Wavestorm cables and love them.


I like them a lot as well, but I’m concerned about their weight and stiffness causing long term damage to the Dave and Blu’s BNC sockets. These are massively shielded cables that weigh a ton. When I moved my Chord setup to a secondary system, I went back to using the stock BNC cables. I’m listening to the secondary system only occasionally and it’s not as hypercritical for me as it was in my primary system.


----------



## sm60

ZappaMan said:


> Sorry to ask, how do you get the screen to auto switch off?


Choose Display 4. It is programmed to shut off after a few seconds.


----------



## ZappaMan

sm60 said:


> Choose Display 4. It is programmed to shut off after a few seconds.


Listening for the first time direct out to my compact alnico speakers, mavis staples, we get by.

First impressions you can feel it’s hitting the bass harder, but just absolutely stunning, spacious, separation, detail, emotion. Fantastic upgrade from tt2.

And I haven’t had a drink tonight lol, im so happy.


----------



## iDesign

sm60 said:


> Choose Display 4. It is programmed to shut off after a few seconds.


I wished there was a Display 5 setting so it would not illuminate each time the sample rates change or the playback is resumed. It would be ideal if it only illuminated when a button on the DAVE or remote was selected.


----------



## sm60

ZappaMan said:


> Listening for the first time direct out to my compact alnico speakers, mavis staples, we get by.
> 
> First impressions you can feel it’s hitting the bass harder, but just absolutely stunning, spacious, separation, detail, emotion. Fantastic upgrade from tt2.
> 
> And I haven’t had a drink tonight lol, im so happy.


Actually I was considering getting one of the larger Altec A7 Voice of the Theater beasts. I’ve never owned gigantic horns and hey, you only live once! These also use super efficient horns and 15” cone woofers. I’m sure the Dave alone could drive them to crazily loud levels!


----------



## ZappaMan (May 12, 2022)

sm60 said:


> Actually I was considering getting one of the larger Altec A7 Voice of the Theater beasts. I’ve never owned gigantic horns and hey, you only live once! These also use super efficient horns and 15” cone woofers. I’m sure the Dave alone could drive them to crazily loud levels!


-10 volume is enough to produce 50-70 decibels at my listening position, on the sofa about 3 meters away from the speakers, it’s loud enough to enjoy it.
It’s measured as a “quiet room”, but satisfying ….


----------



## Powersquat

sm60 said:


> I like them a lot as well, but I’m concerned about their weight and stiffness causing long term damage to the Dave and Blu’s BNC sockets. These are massively shielded cables that weigh a ton. When I moved my Chord setup to a secondary system, I went back to using the stock BNC cables. I’m listening to the secondary system only occasionally and it’s not as hypercritical for me as it was in my primary system.



I can agree the Wave cables are stiff and heavy and some care is needed when connecting components, however if properly supported and secured I don't really think they place much pressure on the BNC connections of the Dave and Mscaler.

Of course if they were being regularly swapped in and out of a system there may be the potential to cause damage, so as with any other connection care should be taken, in fact I'm awaiting the arrival of a new pair of Storm cables to replace the Stream cables I've been using for the past 10 months. 

Hopefully once I've swapped out the Stream for the Storm and have them supported and secured I won't have to touch them any time soon.


----------



## SteveHulk (May 12, 2022)

sm60 said:


> I like them a lot as well, but I’m concerned about their weight and stiffness causing long term damage to the Dave and Blu’s BNC sockets. These are massively shielded cables that weigh a ton. When I moved my Chord setup to a secondary system, I went back to using the stock BNC cables. I’m listening to the secondary system only occasionally and it’s not as hypercritical for me as it was in my primary system.


As far as I gathered, the necessity of supporting these cables arises not from the possibility of any damage to BLU/M Scaler and DAVE, but from the fact that the weight of the cables can damage the cables themselves if they are caused to bend too tightly.

The manufacturer says that the curvature of the cables as delivered in their box or pouch is the maximum recommended curvature to avoid damage to the shield, and advises that the cables be supported in some way.


----------



## MvRBE10 (May 17, 2022)

Got the first batch of ac inlets ready for farad for the first lps dave systems. Made these first by hand he will probably will making the rest automaticly but these are artisan made by me, alot of patience by and hand finish work. First member here has ordered as set so hope he enjoys it soon.

And added the install manual for those who like to see upfront how that will go.


----------



## SteveHulk

MvRBE10 said:


> Got the first batch of ac inlets ready for farad for the first lps dave systems. Made these first by hand he will probably will making the rest automaticly but these are artisan made by me, alot of patience by and hand finish work. First member here has ordered as set so hope he enjoys it soon.
> 
> And added the install manual for those who like to see upfront how that will go.


Ahhh... I Feel the Need to Tweak! 🤤


----------



## Sampajanna

The local Borrensen/Aavik/Ansuz dealer was offering 30 day trial of all products. I got the Ansuz Sortz Supreme (the middle of 3 grades) for a trial. I put it into an RCA out of my Dave… Wowza! I am not a huge “tweaker.” I find most of them only marginal shifts. But this is truly component level change. It opened soundstage and changed the bass significantly. The bass is fuller, almost like a properly dialed in subwoofer was added. This difference is not subtle at all. I can and did hear it blind… worth a try for sure if your local dealer is offering free trial. I will be keeping mine for sure! Unbelievable. I am flabbergasted!


----------



## chesebert

Sampajanna said:


> The local Borrensen/Aavik/Ansuz dealer was offering 30 day trial of all products. I got the Ansuz Sortz Supreme (the middle of 3 grades) for a trial. I put it into an RCA out of my Dave… Wowza! I am not a huge “tweaker.” I find most of them only marginal shifts. But this is truly component level change. It opened soundstage and changed the bass significantly. The bass is fuller, almost like a properly dialed in subwoofer was added. This difference is not subtle at all. I can and did hear it blind… worth a try for sure if your local dealer is offering free trial. I will be keeping mine for sure! Unbelievable. I am flabbergasted!


People said the same thing about Synergistic Research HOT. My BS meter is maxed out at this point.


----------



## Sampajanna

chesebert said:


> People said the same thing about Synergistic Research HOT. My BS meter is maxed out at this point.


Interesting, cuz my troll meter is at the same level…


----------



## alxw0w

MvRBE10 said:


> Got the first batch of ac inlets ready for farad for the first lps dave systems. Made these first by hand he will probably will making the rest automaticly but these are artisan made by me, alot of patience by and hand finish work. First member here has ordered as set so hope he enjoys it soon.
> 
> And added the install manual for those who like to see upfront how that will go.


It would be good idea to make some mark (for example red dot on top?) on a molex connector to prevent possibility of reversed connection.


----------



## MvRBE10 (May 18, 2022)

Every lead has a label with the dc voltage on it corresponding with the label on the power supply. In my peronel version i used colored tape when i switched alot but when your color blind and alot of guys are you are screwed. So mattijs wisely desided to go for labels with proper info on it.

Ow and the monitorprint is just there to prevent damage when dc voltage goes off the deep end or beeing switched. Etc etc… so we have covered all bases.🤞🏻😎


----------



## alxw0w

MvRBE10 said:


> Every lead has a label with the dc voltage on it corresponding with the label on the power supply. In my peronel version i used colored tape when i switched alot but when your color blind and alot of guys are you are screwed. So mattijs wisely desided to go for labels with proper info on it.
> 
> Ow and the monitorprint is just there to prevent damage when dc voltage goes off the deep end or beeing switched. Etc etc… so we have covered all bases.🤞🏻😎


I'm talking about molex connector. Since it could be inserted in both ways it would be nice to put a red dot (as marked on screen) so it facing back of the Dave.
And of course 3 leads from farads should be also marked with proper voltage.


----------



## MvRBE10

Aah ok but that has an edge on the lower one side end what will click in the bottom. If you turn it around the thick side will rubb and it will not go in gently to my knowledge. You probably now that. If they follow the pictures it cant go wrong. You cannot do the conversion drunk or toxicated 😁


----------



## griff500

chesebert said:


> People said the same thing about Synergistic Research HOT. My BS meter is maxed out at this point.


Wouldn’t you have said the same about ethernet cables?


----------



## chesebert (May 18, 2022)

griff500 said:


> Wouldn’t you have said the same about ethernet cables?


We are talking about a RCA/XLR plug that goes on the unused output (this is very problematic and could damage the driver long term) that is not even in the analog signal path that is claimed to have “But this is truly component level change”. Give me a break. If this is not total BS I don’t know what is.


----------



## Reactcore

MvRBE10 said:


> Aah ok but that has an edge on the lower one side end what will click in the bottom. If you turn it around the thick side will rubb and it will not go in gently to my knowledge. You probably now that. If they follow the pictures it cant go wrong. You cannot do the conversion drunk or toxicated 😁



👌 It looks neat though.

Chord could put it on Daves Accessories page aside the stand🙃


----------



## chesebert

Reactcore said:


> 👌 It looks neat though.
> 
> Chord could put it on Daves Accessories page aside the stand🙃


Last time I was chatting with certain affiliated person, we were both amazed at the group of “passionate” users of Chord products 🙃


----------



## ZappaMan

chesebert said:


> Last time I was chatting with certain affiliated person, we were both amazed at the group of “passionate” users of Chord products 🙃


Can I see your face chesebert ?


----------



## chesebert (May 18, 2022)

ZappaMan said:


> Can I see your face chesebert ?


No thank you. Not running for office here 🤣 I will let you know when I’m ready to kiss some babies (wearing headphones)


----------



## ZappaMan

Did I say that out loud?

What I meant to say, was, I connected my matrix spdif2, via Bnc to mscaler / Dave - sounds solid, maybe I’ll try comparing to src dx at some point.


----------



## ZappaMan (May 18, 2022)

chesebert said:


> No thank you. Not running for office here 🤣


I’ll be thinking about you, I think I know what you look like, cheese + Bert.


----------



## chesebert

ZappaMan said:


> I’ll be thinking about you, I think I know what you look like, cheese + Bert.


Touche 😄


----------



## SteveHulk (May 19, 2022)

iDesign said:


> I wished there was a Display 5 setting so it would not illuminate each time the sample rates change or the playback is resumed. It would be ideal if it only illuminated when a button on the DAVE or remote was selected.


The DAVE display is pretty awful. It is either ditchwater-dull or garish. The resolution of the text is poor - either a higher res display should have been used or a sans serif font used that would make the resolution shortcomings of the display less painfully apparent.

If you want the environment of a DAC circuit to be as electromagnetically quiet as possible I'm not sure that an lcd-type display is even a good idea anyway.

I actually like the design aesthetic of the TT2, in particular the porthole view of the interior. It is a sign of the justified confidence that Chord has in the quality of their product that they have no misgivings in putting its internals on view. Rather like a restaurant where the kitchen is visible from the dining area. I wish more cues had been taken from that for the DAVE.


----------



## sm60

SteveHulk said:


> The DAVE display is pretty awful. It is either ditchwater-dull or garish. The resolution of the text is poor - either a higher res display should have been used or a sans serif font used that would make the resolution shortcomings of the display less painfully apparent.
> 
> If you want the environment of a DAC circuit to be as electromagnetically quiet as possible I'm not sure that an lcd-type display is even a good idea anyway.
> 
> I actually like the design aesthetic of the TT2, in particular the porthole view of the interior. It is a sign of the justified confidence that Chord has in the quality of their product that they have no misgivings in putting its internals on view. Rather like a restaurant where the kitchen is visible from the dining area. I wish more cues had been taken from that for the DAVE.


I dislike the colored marbles motif of the TT2 and other portable Chord products, as well as the Christmas tree lighting effects of the Dave. Mercifully on my Lampi DAC, there’s no display info at all except source selected shown using an amber retro looking Nixie tube. Newer DAC designs should all have smartphone interfaces anyway, like Roon does, so one can tweak away to your hearts content if you want, but the display should be minimal and definitely dimmable. But this is a subjective thing. McIntosh lovers love the big blue meters lighting up on their products (even their preamplifiers have them).


----------



## ZappaMan

SteveHulk said:


> The DAVE display is pretty awful. It is either ditchwater-dull or garish. The resolution of the text is poor - either a higher res display should have been used or a sans serif font used that would make the resolution shortcomings of the display less painfully apparent.
> 
> If you want the environment of a DAC circuit to be as electromagnetically quiet as possible I'm not sure that an lcd-type display is even a good idea anyway.
> 
> I actually like the design aesthetic of the TT2, in particular the porthole view of the interior. It is a sign of the justified confidence that Chord has in the quality of their product that they have no misgivings in putting its internals on view. Rather like a restaurant where the kitchen is visible from the dining area. I wish more cues had been taken from that for the DAVE.


I like display 4, the way the background color changes depending on the volume range. Maybe took its design cues from teletext.


----------



## MvRBE10

You can also see it as a piece of abstract art like a piet mondriaan. Maybe not everybodies cup of thee but its worth a shitload of money😂


----------



## alxw0w

sm60 said:


> Newer DAC designs should all have smartphone interfaces


😂


----------



## SteveHulk (May 19, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> 😂


That new DACs should have smartphone interfaces is probably true. But how can DAVE be connected to a smartphone without introducing even more EM noise with WiFi and/or Bluetooth?

And Chord's only effort in this direction so far is GoFigure and that did not GoVeryWell... 😔


----------



## MvRBE10 (May 21, 2022)

Yesterday added a new sub to the dave, this one connects to the xlr of the dave. Had the rel 510 and 812 in the past but this is really a notch up. Alot of eq options via iphone or display and its a closed 15” the d15s from perlisten. What a beast. Ads another layer in the room. I goes down to 10hz. This week will do a rew measeurement session to blend it optimal but so on the fly its mental. Subbass adds so much atmossphere and makes alot of songs like it should. The seller compared it to the no. 25 and the carbonspecial but this one filles better and is on the same speed or faster as these beasts.


----------



## Reactcore

Lol for the ones that have'nt read it..
I stumbled on this post in a 'anti chord community' 😝

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...visited-in-2022-vs-wavedream-signature.12197/


----------



## Reactcore

Nice!!
I guess thats listening with your stomach🔈🥴


----------



## MvRBE10

Reactcore said:


> Nice!!
> I guess thats listening with your stomach🔈🥴


No its not like that i try to have a flat response with a little up in the sub because i listen most of the time on low volumes and take the music as intended, now with the power supply upgrades the bass is some much more detailed and placed that the sub adds much more musicality to the whole. I am not a homecinema guy i quest to get it like its intended if thats at all possible 😁


----------



## MvRBE10

Reactcore said:


> Lol for the ones that have'nt read it..
> I stumbled on this post in a 'anti chord community' 😝
> 
> https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...visited-in-2022-vs-wavedream-signature.12197/


I am reading it but mostly the guys who matter talk with respect about the chord stuff and the dave. Like everything in life if its good it is good everywere.


----------



## kawhia

People who have sold their dave dac, which dac did you buy afterwards?


----------



## TDinCali

Holo May Kitsune edition. For me, in my setup, I preferred the sound.


----------



## sm60

kawhia said:


> People who have sold their dave dac, which dac did you buy afterwards?


I got a Lampi Pacific DAC, but kept my Blu Mk2 and Dave for a second system in my (longish) dining room, where it drives a Quad system (Artera current dumping amplifier, 2805 electrostatics). I really like this Chord combo and don’t expect to sell it anytime. It’s perfect for a second system where I primarily play redbook CDs, upscaled to the Dave, which also acts as the preamplifier. The Lampi is in my primary system, which is all tubes. This way, I enjoy the benefits of both worlds. The solid state setup as you’d imagine is very transparent and precise with crisp transients and very good (electrostatic) bass. The primary system is very tubey sounding, warm, extremely dimensional with 3D soundstaging. Especially since I’m using a JJ 300B SET 20 watt integrated amplifier in the primary system, which has a sound that is perfect for 50s-70s analog sourced recordings. Solid state equipment and tubes live in different universes. They are ships that pass in the night, never meeting each other.


----------



## MarkusBarkus

MSB Reference. Kept the Dave/DC4/Gaia for a second, headphone system.


----------



## iamoneagain

kawhia said:


> People who have sold their dave dac, which dac did you buy afterwards?


I was only using my Dave/mscaler for the sole use of the Focal Utopia plugged directly in. I prefer them out of a Naim Uniti Atom HE more. Has more body, warmth and my whole collection sounds great, not just well recorded albums. Whether it’s technically as good is up for debate but I prefer it for the Utopia.


----------



## adrianm

kawhia said:


> People who have sold their dave dac, which dac did you buy afterwards?


To this point, i've been asking myself this question and i'm curious if anyone else arrived to the same conclusion. Considering a Smyth Research A16 Realiser. Does anyone have any experience with it?


----------



## Reactcore

adrianm said:


> To this point, i've been asking myself this question and i'm curious if anyone else arrived to the same conclusion. Considering a Smyth Research A16 Realiser. Does anyone have any experience with it?



I have been reading alot about A16 in the past while it was still at kickstarter but since i had to blind buy one.. i declined and started my Chord journey..

You can ask user paulchiu He has one.. he also experienced with Ooyh software and Dave.


----------



## Sampajanna

I have a fully loaded Lampi Pac on the way now and will get a couple weeks to compare to my HMS+Dave+2 DC4 PS stack. Should be fun! I will post results. I do have option to keep either or both, so let’s see…


----------



## sm60 (May 22, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> I have a fully loaded Lampi Pac on the way now and will get a couple weeks to compare to my HMS+Dave+2 DC4 PS stack. Should be fun! I will post results. I do have option to keep either or both, so let’s see…


Look forward to your impressions. I find they occupy different sonic worlds, like electrostatics and moving coils. Stats do stuff that moving coil box speakers never can, and vice versa, just like horn loaded speakers can generate 100+dB on just one puny watt of input. For now I’m keeping both my Dave and my Lampi, just because I have the space. One day I’ll have to make a choice, but not yet.

I’ve owned every kind of speaker technology out there, but not yet any  horn based design. That’s hopefully my next acquisition. Just have to decide if I want an antique big old Atec Voice of the Theater monstrosity or a more recent Klipschorn  kind of design.


----------



## Sampajanna

I am as much interested in the possibility of reducing 5 boxes and all associated spaghetti to just 1. This Lampi Pac has the extra analogue preamp built in as well… If it can provide the same transparency with the benefit of preamp and that tube magic, I will be in Heaven. I would even sacrifice some micro-dynamics for that.


----------



## sm60

Sampajanna said:


> I am as much interested in the possibility of reducing 5 boxes and all associated spaghetti to just 1. This Lampi Pac has the extra analogue preamp built in as well… If it can provide the same transparency with the benefit of preamp and that tube magic, I will be in Heaven. I would even sacrifice some micro-dynamics for that.


Mine has no volume control, so no analogue inputs. But I love the fact that it has a LAN input and a built in Roon bridge, so I can stream to it through Ethernet without needing another streaming device in my listening room. I can see why having a built in volume control can eliminate the need for a preamp. I listen to a lot of vinyl still, so I need a phono preamp in any case.


----------



## LuthierJeff

> To this point, i've been asking myself this question and i'm curious if anyone else arrived to the same conclusion. Considering a Smyth Research A16 Realiser. Does anyone have any experience with it?


@adrianm 
Hi all, just popping in here. I have the Smyth Realiser A16 and I love it (I got it when it was kickstarted). However, it really is a different beast than a good standalone DAC. The spatial simulation it gives can be absolutely striking; however, ideally you'd have to go through the setup process yourself with the mics in your ears while modeling a loudspeaker setup. They have other examples HRTFs you can download (which is what I've had to do), but it would be difficult to find one that truly matches your own.

For me, I use it when specifically wanting surround sound (otherwise I remove it from the chain), and then push it out digitally to an outboard DAC. You can certainly use it's onboard DAC and amplification, but I can't really speak to it's quality. I can't imagine it's as good as a dedicated one, though. If anything, it would be an awesome complement to the DAVE, or anything, really, but shines mostly with surround sound. That's actually my current dream, is to get a Dave to put on the end. Let me know if you have any questions about the A16, though!


----------



## Kentajalli

Has this been posted before ?
*Chord Dave test and measurements + mScaler*


----------



## LuthierJeff

Holy crap, I'm only partway through but this article is extremely informative. Thank you for posting it! I'd never come across it before.


----------



## sm60

LuthierJeff said:


> Holy crap, I'm only partway through but this article is extremely informative. Thank you for posting it! I'd never come across it before.


These measurements confirm what I have long believed and previously said on this forum. While the Dave certainly measures reasonably well, it’s not state of the art by any means. If you compare these measurements with those of the 10x cheaper Topping, you’ll see the latter measures far better. That’s not state of the art either. I expect the hugely expensive MSB DACs probably measure even better. 

But it’s worth repeating that these measurements are largely meaningless, as are all measurements of DACs. The headphones or speakers we use to listen to them, not to mention the amplifiers are often many orders of magnitude worse. I doubt there’s a speaker made today that even has 10 bit linearity in the bass. That’s where the real challenge in hifi is, not in DAC design.


----------



## adrianm

Kentajalli said:


> Has this been posted before ?
> *Chord Dave test and measurements + mScaler*


It has , by @GoldenOne  himself


----------



## GoldenOne

sm60 said:


> These measurements confirm what I have long believed and previously said on this forum. While the Dave certainly measures reasonably well, it’s not state of the art by any means. If you compare these measurements with those of the 10x cheaper Topping, you’ll see the latter measures far better. That’s not state of the art either. I expect the hugely expensive MSB DACs probably measure even better.
> 
> But it’s worth repeating that these measurements are largely meaningless, as are all measurements of DACs. The headphones or speakers we use to listen to them, not to mention the amplifiers are often many orders of magnitude worse. I doubt there’s a speaker made today that even has 10 bit linearity in the bass. That’s where the real challenge in hifi is, not in DAC design.


I think some consideration does have to be given to when the DAVE was first released.
Whilst from an objective standpoint other products may beat it in many areas (but not all, no other manufacturer has matched Chord's reconstruction filter performance for example, and the inherent design of the pulse array itself has some notable benefits compared to other thermometer or switched-resistor designs), back when it was released it would have been kinda mind blowing in comparison to everything on the market I think.


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## adrianm

GoldenOne said:


> inherent design of the pulse array itself has some notable benefits compared to other thermometer or switched-resistor designs),


Like not needing a 9k clock to reduce jitter like the latest DCS Lina stack. I can't wait to see your review on that


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## GoldenOne (May 25, 2022)

adrianm said:


> Like not needing a 9k clock to reduce jitter like the latest DCS Lina stack. I can't wait to see your review on that


I'd absolutely love to try the Lina.
I imagine after my Bartok review though they might be somewhat reluctant to lend me one 

Though weirdly it seems to be just the Bartok I don't like. I've tried their higher end stuff now and enjoyed it WAY more. So hopefully Lina will be similar.

I have a friend who is planning to get the full stack though so hopefully I'll be able to borrow his if dCS says no.


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## alxw0w

Lina to me is kinda... Strange
A lot of strange design choices (from type of units to features and others) along with pricing.


----------



## adrianm

GoldenOne said:


> I'd absolutely love to try the Lina.
> I imagine after my Bartok review though they might be somewhat reluctant to lend me one
> 
> I have a friend who is planning to get the full stack though so hopefully I'll be able to borrow his if dCS says no.


To be honest, a few hours before it was announced I was sure I'd jump on the bandwagon for something like that. It's just too bad DCS decided to double down on being a lifestyle brand instead of "only"  a cutting edge Hi-fi company. The stack is clearly meant to be an aspirational product more than anything else. Too bad it doesn't look like one. 
    It's basically an overpriced Bartok + Clock in an undersized package. I could maybe see the Headphone amp being interesting, however I can't go back to the M-scaler days and not have the flexibility and performance of Hqplayer.


----------



## iDesign (May 25, 2022)

I can’t understand the thinking behind the dCS Lina as a $30,000 headphone system given the best flagships like the Utopia and Susvara are $4,400-4,700. I’m surprised they brought the Lina to light considering the limited market and I imagine it would only have a handful of buyers even in Asia.


----------



## Ciggavelli

iDesign said:


> I can’t understand the thinking behind the dCS Lina as a $30,000 headphone system given the best flagships like the Utopia and Susvara are $4,400-4,700. I’m surprised they brought the Lina to market considering the limited market and I imagine it would only have a handful of buyers even in Asia.


I think their strategy is to get people to buy one component first (maybe the dac or amp) and then maybe buy the other components later.  I'm curious to read reviews of the Lina, but for $30K, I'd definitely spend my money elsewhere.


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## sm60

Ciggavelli said:


> I think their strategy is to get people to buy one component first (maybe the dac or amp) and then maybe buy the other components later.  I'm curious to read reviews of the Lina, but for $30K, I'd definitely spend my money elsewhere.


I’m sure Nordost will be happy to sell you a 1 meter Odin cable or power cord for 30 grand. Most exotic boutique hifi products, whether by dCS or Nordost or anyone else, are not designed for rational human beings. They cater largely to people with too much money on their hands. For that clientele, the money is a side issue. Heck, if an NFT of a tweet can sell for 2 million dollars, what’s wrong with a $30K power cord?  At least it does something (of course, the same thing can be done by a $5 power cord from Amazon, but that’s hardly going to matter). 

It’s worth stepping back and understanding what’s limiting true high fidelity. One of the best stereo demonstration albums I’ve ever heard was the original Stereophile test disc, which had J. Gordon Holt, the founder of Stereophile, simply reading a passage on audio reviewing. What made it spellbinding was that every second sentence was recorded on a different microphone. It was astonishing to see how colored each microphone was. Some made his gravelly voice sound nasal, some made it sound very bright etc. The segment ended with some really expensive low coloration microphones, I forget now the brand, might have been Neumann or something else, where his voice sounded like it would if he was standing next to you. 

Once the recording is made with a lousy microphone, what you do afterwards matters little, whether you use a 100 grand dCS DAC or a $500 Topping DAC. The sad reality is 99% of recordings are made with truly awful microphones.


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## iDesign (May 25, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> I think their strategy is to get people to buy one component first (maybe the dac or amp) and then maybe buy the other components later.  I'm curious to read reviews of the Lina, but for $30K, I'd definitely spend my money elsewhere.


Agreed. dCS says the Lina was, "...developed exclusively for the headfi community" (note the capitalization to differentiate from Head-Fi). However, the small hobbyist personal audio community is completely different than home+theater audiophiles and I'm just not sure the market is there for a $30,000 system. That said, it makes Chord's product strategy with the Mojo/2, Hugo/2, and DAVE look all the more genius.


----------



## SteveHulk

sm60 said:


> I’m sure Nordost will be happy to sell you a 1 meter Odin cable or power cord for 30 grand. Most exotic boutique hifi products, whether by dCS or Nordost or anyone else, are not designed for rational human beings. They cater largely to people with too much money on their hands. For that clientele, the money is a side issue. Heck, if an NFT of a tweet can sell for 2 million dollars, what’s wrong with a $30K power cord?  At least it does something (of course, the same thing can be done by a $5 power cord from Amazon, but that’s hardly going to matter).
> 
> It’s worth stepping back and understanding what’s limiting true high fidelity. One of the best stereo demonstration albums I’ve ever heard was the original Stereophile test disc, which had J. Gordon Holt, the founder of Stereophile, simply reading a passage on audio reviewing. What made it spellbinding was that every second sentence was recorded on a different microphone. It was astonishing to see how colored each microphone was. Some made his gravelly voice sound nasal, some made it sound very bright etc. The segment ended with some really expensive low coloration microphones, I forget now the brand, might have been Neumann or something else, where his voice sounded like it would if he was standing next to you.
> 
> Once the recording is made with a lousy microphone, what you do afterwards matters little, whether you use a 100 grand dCS DAC or a $500 Topping DAC. The sad reality is 99% of recordings are made with truly awful microphones.


Another sad fact about recordings is the failure to mix while paying proper attention to the phase relationships between the various tracks recorded using mics scattered all over the place.

This is why for example you get piano concertos with a giant piano spreading across the soundstage. Quite apart from the ridiculous mics shoved right inside the piano.

No acoustic instrument should be miked up close. The sound of an instrument is in general a blend of different sounds emanating from different parts of the instrument and these need distance for the blending to happen properly.

The joy of what the DAVE can do is alloyed with the horror of these recording deficiencies being ruthlessly dissected and exposed to quailing ears.


----------



## adrianm

iDesign said:


> Agreed. dCS says the Lina was, "...developed exclusively for the headfi community" (note the capitalization to differentiate from Head-Fi). However, the small hobbyist personal audio community is completely different than home+theater audio audiophiles and I'm just not sure the market is there for a $30,000 system. That said, it makes Chord's product strategy with the Mojo/2, Hugo/2, and DAVE look all the more genius.


 Head-fi has created a market for status symbols in the community, so they are catering to that. It's only a 34k euro system if people line up to buy it, if not...we all know how inflated pricing is depending on region. 
   The fact that they also produce low volumes allows them to force things in this manner.


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## Sampajanna

My dealer said that I should let the Lampi Pac sit a week or two before shipping off my Dave rig to him, just to make sure i like the new sound better, Five seconds…. Literally five seconds of the first track was all it took. I was not expecting this much of an upgrade. Wow! Expletives are all that suffice… Pardon me while I go curse out loud! Beg, borrow or scrape your nickels together and get a Lampi Pac is my sincere advice.


----------



## GoldenOne

Sampajanna said:


> My dealer said that I should let the Lampi Pac sit a week or two before shipping off my Dave rig to him, just to make sure i like the new sound better, Five seconds…. Literally five seconds of the first track was all it took. I was not expecting this much of an upgrade. Wow! Expletives are all that suffice… Pardon me while I go curse out loud! Beg, borrow or scrape your nickels together and get a Lampi Pac is my sincere advice.


A dealer will usually say that because of the 'honeymoon period'.
When you get a new device in, it often will appear as an enormous, drastic improvement, especially if the overall sound signature is fairly different (as is likely the case with the lampizator).

But over the course of a couple weeks you might start to notice drawbacks more, or find it to be more of a change and less of an improvement.
You might not, and you might well love the lampi over the dave to the same extent in 2 weeks as you do now.
But it's definitely wise to use and compare stuff for a week or two as the initial 'honeymoon period' can often be misleading


----------



## sm60

Sampajanna said:


> My dealer said that I should let the Lampi Pac sit a week or two before shipping off my Dave rig to him, just to make sure i like the new sound better, Five seconds…. Literally five seconds of the first track was all it took. I was not expecting this much of an upgrade. Wow! Expletives are all that suffice… Pardon me while I go curse out loud! Beg, borrow or scrape your nickels together and get a Lampi Pac is my sincere advice.


Couldn’t have put it better myself. The Lampi PAC opens up a new world of enjoyment. But I’m still hanging on to my Blu/ Dave and using it in a second system.


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## 801evan

My new builds always sound awesome on a fresh start because it hasn't been broken in yet. Then on day 2-3 I start to hear it opening up  and it'll start to show issues. Day 4-6 I wouldn't even bother listening. It's around 2 weeks when I can start judging it officially. And I'm just talking about swapping out plugs/sockets/resistors on this one.


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## Ciggavelli

Yeah, the honeymoon period is real.  Sometimes it has even lasted for a month (specifically for me with the Solitaire Ps).  Though, I'm very curious to hear about how you like the Lampi Pac after a period of time.


----------



## Sampajanna

Thanks for all the wonderful insight and advice guys. I will indeed wait and see how it settles in. For now, I am thoroughly enjoying this. I cannot even skip ahead on the test track list—I have to listen to every single second.


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## Sampajanna

Initial observations: The soundstage was between the speakers and now they are gone, completely gone. The room is music. It feels liquid, tacit. You can touch it, lick it  It honestly feels like sitting in a bath of sound. I thought there would be a trade off in detail but there isnt. I have the RK PX25 and 5U4G tubes, Detail is equal to the Dave, but impact, bloom, soundstage imaging are up up a notch or three, Emotional involvement is Pacific ocean size…. Like a real honeymoon, there is no time for sleep


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## alxw0w

Sampajanna said:


> Initial observations: The soundstage was between the speakers and now they are gone, completely gone. The room is music. It feels liquid, tacit. You can touch it, lick it  It honestly feels like sitting in a bath of sound. I thought there would be a trade off in detail but there isnt. I have the RK PX25 and 5U4G tubes, Detail is equal to the Dave, but impact, bloom, soundstage imaging are up up a notch or three, Emotional involvement is Pacific ocean size…. Like a real honeymoon, there is no time for sleep


Do you have this golden version?



It's probably too bold for my tastes but nevertheless I love the look.
Ps. Enjoy your new toy  and please report back your thoughts after some time.


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## Sampajanna

Yes. Initially, I thought the same. I thought I would only get one if it is black. I normally hate the bling stuff. But this brass is so nice. It looks WAY better in person. It is very nice indeed. I never would have thought i would choose it, but it worked out that way. Have you seen one in person? Once I did, it changed my mind.


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## GoldenOne

Gotta say I do love the look of the Nixie tubes in their new one


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## adrianm

Sampajanna said:


> Initial observations: The soundstage was between the speakers and now they are gone, completely gone. The room is music. It feels liquid, tacit. You can touch it, lick it  It honestly feels like sitting in a bath of sound. I thought there would be a trade off in detail but there isnt. I have the RK PX25 and 5U4G tubes, Detail is equal to the Dave, but impact, bloom, soundstage imaging are up up a notch or three, Emotional involvement is Pacific ocean size…. Like a real honeymoon, there is no time for sleep


So just to put thing into context, you liked the Dave setup much more than the DCS and MSB stuff , but the Lampi is better still? If only there was some context for a headphone setup


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## Sampajanna

Me too. Part of what enticed me to pull the trigger is the 100% MSRP take-in deal they offer, which is exceptional and unprecedented.i am far from doing that, but amazing to know I am not that crazy distant from one if I want. I think they all look amazing  As you can tell, I am smitten….


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## Sampajanna

adrianm said:


> So just to put thing into context, you liked the Dave setup much more than the DCS and MSB stuff , but the Lampi is better still? If only there was some context for a headphone setup


Actually just better than DCS (and non-Apex older version). I mentioned that I actually liked the MSB Reference a bit better. I obviously dont have a Reference here to compare, so cannot say About Lampi vs Ref. But this is damn good.


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## alxw0w (May 26, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> Yes. Initially, I thought the same. I thought I would only get one if it is black. I normally hate the bling stuff. But this brass is so nice. It looks WAY better in person. It is very nice indeed. I never would have thought i would choose it, but it worked out that way. Have you seen one in person? Once I did, it changed my mind.


Unfortunately I've not seen lampi pacific in person.
Ive only auditioned their entry level model which I believe was Baltic.

Edit 
I looked some photos on the internet and actually it was Amber II - that's their entry level.


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## Sampajanna

I liked the HMS + Dave + Storm cables and 2X DC4 better than Rossini and felt it was lose some win some vs. Vivaldi (not whole stack, just dac). These were both pre Apex upgrade. MSB Ref was better to my ears. Never heard premier, but did hear Discrete and my rig was way better, Thee Lampi Pac is better than my HMS/Dave?PSU rig so far…. But dont hold me to it later. Apparently I am on a honeymoon, which is entirely possible for sure. But it is a good ride if so… I will keep you guys posted over the next couple weeks as it settles,


----------



## Sampajanna

If such random opinions matter, the guy who sold me this Pac said he had a MSB Ref and switched to the Pac, liking it more. He was selling because he upgraded to the whole Ideon Epsilon stack which is 80+k…He said he liked that better than Select 2. I havent heard either of those stratosphere dacs yet…. Way out of my budget, but would be cool to hear.


----------



## Reactcore

Although i was skeptical about the benefits a LPS could possibly have on the well engineered Dave.. i wouldnt disgard anything before i hear it first hand. Ok i was already thinking to try batteries to feed it ..later..

So today i had Maarten on visit with a full stack of Farad LPS units for Dave and HMS.

And it was A-B time with this and my stock Dave. I tested with only my HD800 (SDR mod) and my self made array speakers feeded by my Denon POA S10 mono amps.

Impressions with HD800 out of Dave amp:
On the first note.. One word: Bass!
Not overacted heavy ..but well defined bass compared to stock. I could real easy follow the tune of the rumble extending upwards into the low mids.

The mid and highs were kind of untouched making the whole picture more rich.

On my speakers:
Fuller overall sound like its hugging you.
Voices got more meat on the bone ..offcourse due to better control of the low end.

I'm no basshead by any means but i can definately get used to this.

Then switching back to stock Dave.
The sound is as open and transparent as before.. but i miss something.. fullness..
the music is kind of less grabbing me. 

Now im by myself again and am listening further and slowly adjusting back to how it was.  I guess i have to speed up my battery 
(or perhaps Farad) upgrade ☺









With thanks to @MvRBE10 and his insight.


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## adrianm (May 26, 2022)

For those still on the Dave bandwagon, I've been doing my periodical sanity check after receiving my new generator (Isotek Genesis One), which I hoped would replace my current filter, the Aquarius. Like i've previously said, the most consistent thing I've found so far in this hobby is mains filtering. I've only had experience with Isotek and felt no need to change, so they can just take my money at this point. I've owned the Sirius previously, sold it to a friend after i got the Aquarius and now got it back for a sanity check.
   The improvements are consistent across the range and while the Genesis is clearly the best sounding, connecting it to the Aquarius instead of directly to the mains makes a shocking difference. I've never heard Dave have so much depth, dynamic range, and defined imaging.   Sadly, this shines an even bigger light on the noise entering Dave from the PC, even with a Jitterbug and DC-blocks in place, previously with an Intona USB isolator as well, which i've since returned, since it's clear i need to get back to either a streamer or an Innuos Phoenix.


----------



## adrianm

Reactcore said:


> Although i was skeptical about the benefits a LPS could possibly have on the well engineered Dave.. i wouldnt disgard anything before i hear it first hand. Ok i was already thinking to try batteries to feed it ..later..
> 
> So today i had Maarten on visit with a full stack of Farad LPS units for Dave and HMS.
> 
> ...


Well it looks like we have a theme for tonight


----------



## MvRBE10

Got the stack back in place and was a good time to clean all the debre and dust but its working again. Was alot of fun and on his speakers while his setup is totally different than mine, amp, streamer and speaker wize the sound difference was kind of the same, more and better defined bass and a much more spacious and grabbing sound. Nice was that what i can’t do at home was a 1min change to original dave so the memory was still there and we both looked at each other and alot of engagement was gone and bass and bass texture. So was fun to see sort of the same results on a completely different system.


----------



## Sampajanna

Day 2: Listened to a lot more music across a wider spectrum,. Started to see the flaws in the Lampi. I will listen to it until Sunday and then swap the Dave rig back in to see what happens. I have noticed a slight decrease in instrument separation and micro details between the speakers, especially apparent in electronic music. that said, the soundstage is still much bigger with the Lampi, the tone meatier and juicier. I wouldn’t say the Dave is a lean dac, but it is relative to the Lampi Pac. A lot of music seems more whole and less about details and more about liquid, engaging sound. My dealer has me keeping notes and especially listing if there is anything I cannot live without… I will continue to share if you want to hear about the journey. Sunday will be interesting, to add the old rig back in. I always learn a lot from the swap back in, when A/B anything….


----------



## sm60

Sampajanna said:


> Day 2: Listened to a lot more music across a wider spectrum,. Started to see the flaws in the Lampi. I will listen to it until Sunday and then swap the Dave rig back in to see what happens. I have noticed a slight decrease in instrument separation and micro details between the speakers, especially apparent in electronic music. that said, the soundstage is still much bigger with the Lampi, the tone meatier and juicier. I wouldn’t say the Dave is a lean dac, but it is relative to the Lampi Pac. A lot of music seems more whole and less about details and more about liquid, engaging sound. My dealer has me keeping notes and especially listing if there is anything I cannot live without… I will continue to share if you want to hear about the journey. Sunday will be interesting, to add the old rig back in. I always learn a lot from the swap back in, when A/B anything….


Your impressions are largely consistent with mine. Some of these differences are due to the fact that the Lampi Pacific is using direct heated triodes. By the way, if you haven’t heard the Lampi with KR 242 tubes, you haven’t heard what it can really do. That’s an amazing tube capable of stunning dynamics. But you have to be careful with system matching if you don’t have a volume control on the Pacific. It can easily overload a typical solid state preamplifier. If you have a volume control, then there’s no issue. 

I still like the Dave because it has a solid state leanness that is sometimes conducive to the music. Also I can turn it on and off for playing a single CD. I only turn on my Lampi in the evening when I’m listening for several hours. It takes a while for the beast to warm up its act, particularly in my case as I’m using a JJ 300B SET integrated amplifier with my Quads. 

As they say, it’s horses for courses. Folks who like the lean snappy solid state sound ( Naim lovers, where are you?) will not like the Lampi. My wife thinks tubes makes the music a bit sluggish. The tempos bother her more than me.


----------



## number1sixerfan (May 27, 2022)

Past few pages have reminded me why I really take it easy at least for the first week with new gear. I don't really compare against other gear much at all. Just too many mental loopholes.. familiarity with current setup, post purchase justification bias, etc... even the influence of others here. Case in point, a few people mentioned that the OP would start to see flaws, OP reads that and very next day, "I'm starting to see flaws" lol. There's just so much at play mentally with this stuff.. (also this is to no offense to anyone at all, I'm saying this light heartedly and I'm impacted all by the same bias and input).

I just find it best to try to tune as much as possible out and just get to know the gear early without too much analysis or comparison.. and even taking a temporary step back from this place helps as well. But that's just me, I do also get that the immediate analysis and comparison is also a part of the fun, I totally get that as well. And obviously, if you only have something on loan for a week you really just have no choice lol

Also, separate from all of the above. The Lampi looks and seems (based off impressions) amazing, I'm certainly interested in checking on out once I have the right room setup for a higher end 2 channel system..


----------



## alxw0w

number1sixerfan said:


> I just find it best to try to tune as much as possible out and just get to know the gear early without too much analysis or comparison.. and even taking a temporary step back from this place helps as well. But that's just me,


Nope, that's not only you 
There is a lot of nonsense in our hobby, stepping back can be very helpful.


----------



## chesebert

sm60 said:


> I still like the Dave because it has a solid state leanness that is sometimes conducive to the music. Also I can turn it on and off for playing a single CD. I only turn on my Lampi in the evening when I’m listening for several hours. It takes a while for the beast to warm up its act, particularly in my case as I’m using a JJ 300B SET integrated amplifier with my Quads.


Fyi, leanness/lack of body/lack of weight of musical notes is not a feature or characteristic of solid state - it's a design flaw and is typically associated with low-end equipment.


----------



## Sampajanna

number1sixerfan said:


> Past few pages have reminded me why I really take it easy at least for the first week with new gear. I don't really compare against other gear much at all. Just too many mental loopholes.. familiarity with current setup, post purchase justification bias, etc... even the influence of others here. Case in point, a few people mentioned that the OP would start to see flaws, OP reads that and very next day, "I'm starting to see flaws" lol. There's just so much at play mentally with this stuff.. (also this is to no offense to anyone at all, I'm saying this light heartedly and I'm impacted all by the same bias and input).
> 
> I just find it best to try to tune as much as possible out and just get to know the gear early without too much analysis or comparison.. and even taking a temporary step back from this place helps as well. But that's just me, I do also get that the immediate analysis and comparison is also a part of the fun, I totally get that as well. And obviously, if you only have something on loan for a week you really just have no choice lol
> 
> Also, separate from all of the above. The Lampi looks and seems (based off impressions) amazing, I'm certainly interested in checking on out once I have the right room setup for a higher end 2 channel system..


I hear you. Thanks for the advice. I will say that hearing the flaws had more to do with expanding the music selection on day 2 rather than comments here. But who knows. As you said, there are lots of variables. I am trying to just step back sometimes as well and take this slow. I have a couple weeks to decide. Ill listen today and then put the Dave rig back in tomorrow and see  What that feels like/reveals.I think I figured out a simpler way to rig the whole Dave setup back in (4 boxes w DC4s). And I am having fun, btw. Tons of fun! Love this learning experience.


----------



## sm60

Sampajanna said:


> I hear you. Thanks for the advice. I will say that hearing the flaws had more to do with expanding the music selection on day 2 rather than comments here. But who knows. As you said, there are lots of variables. I am trying to just step back sometimes as well and take this slow. I have a couple weeks to decide. Ill listen today and then put the Dave rig back in tomorrow and see  What that feels like/reveals.I think I figured out a simpler way to rig the whole Dave setup back in (4 boxes w DC4s). And I am having fun, btw. Tons of fun! Love this learning experience.


Just trying out a pair of PX 25 tubes with my Lampizator. Sounds quite beautiful. I can see why it’s a very popular choice. Definitely up there with the 242s. BTW, tube rolling on the Lampi gets very expensive very quickly. One huge advantage of the Dave: no tubes to roll! LOL.  

But the Lampi has this billowing enveloping sound that wraps you up, which can be quite intoxicating (particularly when you include a 300B SET amp into the chain). My mind tells me this is tube coloration that I’m addicted to, my heart says who cares? 😄


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## Malcyg (May 28, 2022)

Dave was launched in May 2015 and 7 years is a very long time indeed in terms of developments in digital technology. Dave has been surpassed nowadays, but the fact that people still think so highly of it is testament to what a ground breaking achievement it was at the time. And it’s performance per price point was staggering back then. I was an early adopter and, whilst I no longer have one, I have only fond memories - well apart from the clunky ferrite bound dual umbilical connections!

It will be very interesting to see what Rob does next when he feels ready to leapfrog his own design. No doubt the hoopla will start all over again but hopefully with less argument about the best way to connect. 😉


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## Slim1970

Malcyg said:


> Dave was launched in May 2015 and 7 years is a very long time indeed in terms of developments in digital technology. Dave has been surpassed nowadays, but the fact that people still think so highly of it is testament to what a ground breaking achievement it was at the time. And it’s performance per price point was staggering back then. I was an early adopter and, whilst I no longer have one, I have only fond memories - well apart from the clunky ferrite bound dual umbilical connections!
> 
> It will be very interesting to see what Rob does next when he feels ready to leapfrog his own design. No doubt the hoopla will start all over again but hopefully with less argument about the best way to connect. 😉


I’m not sure the DAVE has been leapfrogged. The DAVE is still at the top of the chain when it comes to prepresenting music in an unabated way. There are more DAC options today than when the DAVE was released. Some of them do portray music differently from the DAVE, but that‘s a matter of preference. Listening to and demoing some of these new amps I still prefer the DAVE . It’s the best DAC I have owned. I can’t honestly say that there is better, but I can say that there is different out there


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## saudio7

Finally after few weeks of checking and compering optical vs USB (with Phoenix), I am comming to conclusion that to my ears USB is better, so I will stay with it, it was a bit costly experience as I have now some good optical cables which will probably go, but it is time to move on and start thinking about power supply for Dave. All this on mscaler/Dave, with mscaler on battery.
Summarizing differences, with USB I got better bas definition and it is hitting a bit harder, generally sound stage is a bit bigger and has better separation, high tones have better resolution, overall improvements in all areas, but not very big, more apparent when listened to full albums then on short samples.


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## 801evan

saudio7 said:


> Finally after few weeks of checking and compering optical vs USB (with Phoenix), I am comming to conclusion that to my ears USB is better, so I will stay with it, it was a bit costly experience as I have now some good optical cables which will probably go, but it is time to move on and start thinking about power supply for Dave. All this on mscaler/Dave, with mscaler on battery.
> Summarizing differences, with USB I got better bas definition and it is hitting a bit harder, generally sound stage is a bit bigger and has better separation, high tones have better resolution, overall improvements in all areas, but not very big, more apparent when listened to full albums then on short samples.


You should still try it with a ddc after the pheonix. Like a src dx or topping d10s.


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## saudio7 (May 28, 2022)

801evan said:


> You should still try it with a ddc after the pheonix. Like a src dx or topping d10s.


I am using iFi iGalvanic additionally.


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## 801evan

saudio7 said:


> I am using iFi iGalvanic for it.


But you still need a usb to toslink device to further compare.


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## saudio7

801evan said:


> But you still need a usb to toslink device to further compare.


Don’t know what you mean, I have sources with both outputs, so I don’t need conversion.


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## 801evan

saudio7 said:


> Don’t know what you mean, I have sources with both outputs, so I don’t need conversion.


Device to Phoenix has the phoenix cleaning up the signal. But since Dave is cleaner on the optical inputs, you want to add a ddc to convert from Phoenix USB to  optical.


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## saudio7

801evan said:


> Device to Phoenix has the phoenix cleaning up the signal. But since Dave is cleaner on the optical inputs, you want to add a ddc to convert from Phoenix USB to  optical.


I am not using optical on Dave that is not possible with mscaler.


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## 801evan

saudio7 said:


> I am not using optical on Dave that is not possible with mscaler.


If you mean u were comparing optical vs Phoenix plugged to mscaler, then it's putting a ddc in-between the phoenix and mscaler.


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## Reactcore (May 28, 2022)

saudio7 said:


> but it is time to move on and start thinking about power supply for Dave. All this on mscaler/Dave, with mscaler on battery.



I can recommend the Farad solution i just heard it 2 days ago in my home.

But if you rather keep on batteries like your HMS.. i made a schematic for a linear solution losing the internal SMPS.

I still must order the parts and start testing..
1st on dummy loads ofc.


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## iDesign (May 29, 2022)

Malcyg said:


> Dave was launched in May 2015 and 7 years is a very long time indeed in terms of developments in digital technology. Dave has been surpassed nowadays, but the fact that people still think so highly of it is testament to what a ground breaking achievement it was at the time. And it’s performance per price point was staggering back then. I was an early adopter and, whilst I no longer have one, I have only fond memories - well apart from the clunky ferrite bound dual umbilical connections!
> 
> It will be very interesting to see what Rob does next when he feels ready to leapfrog his own design. No doubt the hoopla will start all over again but hopefully with less argument about the best way to connect. 😉


I appreciate that Rob Watts has long development cycles and he does not design dishonest products with planned obsolescence. I have long said Chord needs to explore firmware/small component upgrades for their DAVE rather than releasing a successor ahead of a major recession. The upgrade strategy has been successful for dCS, PS Audio, Schiit and many others. Lets consider Mike Moffat’s flagship Yggdrasil which was released nearly 10 years ago as an example, it is not thought of as an aging product, they rarely appear for sale, and have strong resale values— all that has _everything_ to do with the upgrades. The promise of upgrades is the very reason dCS has gained momentum and they just followed through with 2.0 and Apex.

I don’t feel the DAVE is due for an update anytime soon but hopefully Rob Watts and Chord use the time to iron out an upgrade program and start printing return shipping labels.


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## sm60

iDesign said:


> I appreciate that Rob Watts has long development cycles and he does not design dishonest products with planned obsolescence. I have long said Chord needs to explore firmware/small component upgrades for their DAVE rather than releasing a successor ahead of a major recession. The upgrade strategy has been successful for dCS, PS Audio, Schiit and many others. Lets consider Mike Moffat’s flagship Yggdrasil which was released nearly 10 years ago as an example, it is not thought of as aging product, they rarely appear for sale, and have strong resale values— all that has _everything_ to do with the upgrades. The promise of upgrades is the very reason dCS has gained momentum and they just followed through with 2.0 and Apex.
> 
> I don’t feel the DAVE is due for an update anytime soon but hopefully Rob Watts and Chord use the time to iron out an upgrade program and start printing return shipping labels.


My Blu 2 and Dave were sent back to the Chord authorized service center a few months ago. I know they upgraded some things and replaced boards etc. I am glad I sent it in because it also fixed some quirks with Blu2. It’s been flawless since it came back and sounding better than before. I’m not sure what the changes were, but it’s an option worth exploring if you are so inclined. 

I’m not sure it’s worth upgrading Blu2 or Dave for Chord. Both feel like end of the product cycle type designs to me. That’s not to say they are obsolete. They are both brilliant designs in many ways that should last a long time. As an example, my Quad 2805 was based on a design by Peter Walker way back in 1963. You’d think in 60 years, we would have figured out how to make a better loudspeaker. But the Quads have stood the test of time. No one has yet designed a better loudspeaker in my opinion if you restrict yourself to home listening in normal rooms. Speakers that can reproduce 120 dB are great for studios and rock concerts, but no one wants that in a living room. Yes, it would be nice to reproduce 20 Hz if you are into organ music, but aside from the fact that an organ sounds more beautiful in a church than it ever will in a home environment, one can always add subwoofers. Quads are still the lowest distortion speakers on the market and they are phase true and reproduce a square wave perfectly. Don’t try that with your moving coil. 

Well designed products like the Dave or the Quad 63 can last a long time and are not easily replaced. I would add the vinyl record and the compact disc to this list, which are going strong still after many decades. Yes streaming is the king now, but each time my playlist disappears on Qobuz, I’m so happy I kept my CDs, which don’t vanish into thin air.


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## adrianm

iDesign said:


> I appreciate that Rob Watts has long development cycles and he does not design dishonest products with planned obsolescence. I have long said Chord needs to explore firmware/small component upgrades for their DAVE rather than releasing a successor ahead of a major recession. The upgrade strategy has been successful for dCS, PS Audio, Schiit and many others. Lets consider Mike Moffat’s flagship Yggdrasil which was released nearly 10 years ago as an example, it is not thought of as aging product, they rarely appear for sale, and have strong resale values— all that has _everything_ to do with the upgrades. The promise of upgrades is the very reason dCS has gained momentum and they just followed through with 2.0 and Apex.
> 
> I don’t feel the DAVE is due for an update anytime soon but hopefully Rob Watts and Chord use the time to iron out an upgrade program and start printing return shipping labels.


I've been considering a  dCS dac for a while, but their business strategy is a major turn off.  With the Lina dac you're at the bottom of their food chain, software wise, a cut down Bartok with the mapper from 4 years ago,. And do they at least sell it cheaper? No, they increase the prices of everything else by 30%.
     "Pay us 12k and in 2-3 years, we will give you the software we have today for the people that paid more than you". That's what upgradeable means with dCS, unless you buy the top tier products, you're a second class citizen.
      As you can see with Apex, if you want a real upgrade (not just messing around with software filters) it costs 9k for a new board. Quite generous of them.
   I'm pretty sure the M-scaler X will be less than that, and that's a new piece of hardware. If you actually want that. I don't see myself moving away from Hqplayer for another M-scaler.
  That said, every time I add a new "improvement" to Dave, like the generator I keep plugged into my mains filter, or the Innuos Phoenix i plan on auditioning, I'm amazed It can still get better and simultaneously frustrated it wasn't like this out of the factory gate. 
    At least dCS throws you some crumbs for free after a few years. That's pretty much where the difference in approaches.  It might end up being preferable to endlessly messing around with Dave though.


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## iDesign (May 28, 2022)

adrianm said:


> I've been considering a  dCS dac for a while, but their business strategy is a major turn off.  With the Lina dac you're at the bottom of their food chain, software wise, a cut down Bartok with the mapper from 4 years ago,. And do they at least sell it cheaper? No, they increase the prices of everything else by 30%.
> "Pay us 12k and in 2-3 years, we will give you the software we have today for the people that paid more than you". That's what upgradeable means with dCS, unless you buy the top tier products, you're a second class citizen.
> As you can see with Apex, if you want a real upgrade (not just messing around with software filters) it costs 9k for a new board. Quite generous of them.
> I'm pretty sure the M-scaler X will be less than that, and that's a new piece of hardware. If you actually want that. I don't see myself moving away from Hqplayer for another M-scaler.
> ...


Agreed. And as I wrote earlier, I don’t think the market is there for a $30,000 Lina headphone system. Given the increasing number of products from China with excellent technical measurements and ultra low-prices, the elite novelty of Chord and dCS may be running out. We’re already seeing the audiophile market move in that direction.


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## wasupdog

Agree there is a very limited market for a $30k headphone setup.  I feel like we're already being pushed in the past few years but we've disproven to ourselves that there wouldn't be a market for $6k headphones.  On top of that there have been recent price raises recently so we'll see how it goes heading into some sort of market slowdown in the near future.  Fwiw I did used to own a Dave so not just randomly jumping in here.


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## adrianm

iDesign said:


> Agreed. And as I wrote earlier, I don’t think the market is there for a $30,000 Lina headphone system. In fact, I also don’t think it’s there for Apex or a Choral range M Scaler X within the “headfi” community given the increasing number of products from China with excellent technical measurements and ultra low-prices.


Even if people would buy it for the status/peace of mind that they have the pinnacle of what can be achieved today for that price, I would have expected a dac section similar to the Vivaldi "purpose build" (as they say) for headphones for that price. Instead it's Bartok leftovers. They could at least have made it prettier.
    You're better off with a used Bartok, or Rossini, since people say that's where dCS stuff starts to "get good" anyway. It feels like a bad move however you slice it. I'm sure they're counting on their huge margins allowing them to offer significant discounts in case people aren't lining up.


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## Sampajanna

iDesign said:


> I appreciate that Rob Watts has long development cycles and he does not design dishonest products with planned obsolescence. I have long said Chord needs to explore firmware/small component upgrades for their DAVE rather than releasing a successor ahead of a major recession. The upgrade strategy has been successful for dCS, PS Audio, Schiit and many others. Lets consider Mike Moffat’s flagship Yggdrasil which was released nearly 10 years ago as an example, it is not thought of as aging product, they rarely appear for sale, and have strong resale values— all that has _everything_ to do with the upgrades. The promise of upgrades is the very reason dCS has gained momentum and they just followed through with 2.0 and Apex.
> 
> I don’t feel the DAVE is due for an update anytime soon but hopefully Rob Watts and Chord use the time to iron out an upgrade program and start printing return shipping labels.


In a way, the community is already creating these upgrades on its own. I think the HMS +Mscaler combo has more aftermarket mods than any other out there. Chord should just hire Sean Jacobs IMHO.


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## iDesign (May 28, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> In a way, the community is already creating these upgrades on its own. I think the HMS +Mscaler combo has more aftermarket mods than any other out there. Chord should just hire Sean Jacobs IMHO.


Agreed. There is plenty of user feedback in terms of simple firmware/hardware revisions that Chord can incorporate into an _affordable_ upgrade program. It would drive customer retention, sales, and media coverage. They could also add a recertification/extended warranty as part of the process to further entice owners to upgrade. With supply chain issues and a bear stock market, Chord should find a way. They would just need to get the pricing low enough otherwise it would fail fast. 

But lets not get away from the fact that Chord's present line of DACs are all outstanding.


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## muski

Sampajanna said:


> In a way, the community is already creating these upgrades on its own. I think the HMS +Mscaler combo has more aftermarket mods than any other out there. Chord should just hire Sean Jacobs IMHO.


A 100% agree. That's basically what Innuos did...


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## ZappaMan (May 29, 2022)

iDesign said:


> Agreed. There is plenty of user feedback in terms of simple firmware/hardware revisions that Chord can incorporate into an _affordable_ upgrade program. It would drive customer retention, sales, and media coverage. They could also add a recertification/extended warranty as part of the process to further entice owners to upgrade. With supply chain issues and a bear stock market, Chord should find a way. They would just need to get the pricing low enough otherwise it would fail fast.
> 
> But lets not get away from the fact that Chord's present line of DACs are all outstanding.


Maybe we should ask chord to reply to us here, maybe John franks, and ask him publicly if chord would indeed invest some money into a program to upgrade Dave firmware?

It supposes that the firmware improvements are beneficial or that advances Rob makes can be - in time - shared with the rest of the family line - even if a new dac got exclusive use of that intellectual property for a few years.

Personally I hope to not buy another dac as money does not grow on trees.

The upgrade itself could generate revenue too, it needed be free.


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## Reactcore (May 29, 2022)

ZappaMan said:


> Maybe we should ask chord to reply to us here, maybe John franks, and ask him publicly if chord would indeed invest some money into a program to upgrade Dave firmware?
> 
> It supposes that the firmware improvements are beneficial or that advances Rob makes can be - in time - shared with the rest of the family line - even if a new dac got exclusive use of that intellectual property for a few years.
> 
> ...



Software updates are generally to work out bugs and optimise the operation of the hardware. Which in Dave's case is'nt modular.. there no easy exchangable parts inside except PSU.

But there might be something to upgrade in the WTA and noise shapers since this is carefully tweaked programming.

We could kindly try to ask Rob if he actually went further on the Dave 'platform' after its release.. If Chord will allow him to..

Daves WTA1 is already replaced by HMS if used.. and will be again with the future Choral HMS.

Thats why i asked him if he can expand the noise shapers in the unoccupied space if HMS is used.. like a menu setting..


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## miketlse

First time I have spotted this page on Chords website.
Presumably pro audio (including Davina) will be the next focus, rather than domestic Dacs.


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## helljudgement

Malcyg said:


> Dave has been surpassed nowadays


Personally I'm not too sure if that is the case. Rather than surpassed I'd say it's more to do with the competition catching up in the last few years. Good design will stand the test of time. The original Yggy and Wavedream series of dacs which were released around that time and still stands with some of the best dac in their respective price range today. I'd much rather manufacturers releases something that is provide huge improvements every 8-10 years than a small revision every 2-3 years just to match the competition's new releases.


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## adrianm

Reactcore said:


> Daves WTA1 is already replaced by HMS if used.. and will be again with the future Choral HMS.
> 
> Thats why i asked him if he can expand the noise shapers in the unoccupied space if HMS is used.. like a menu setting..


As does Hqplayer via SRC-DX  That's the upgrade i went with and couldn't be happier. +Power upgrades. I do intend on auditioning Lina for a comparison when I get a chance though.


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## Christer (May 29, 2022)

miketlse said:


> First time I have spotted this page on Chords website.
> Presumably pro audio (including Davina) will be the next focus, rather than domestic Dacs.


Hmm, interestng yes, but it seems like one of  the PRO tools  is Hugo 2? And judging from the "pics",   it is apparently used in huge mixing desk situations so common in the  synthetic  electronic POP and Rock genres.
I mostly do not not see such monstrous mixing desks like the one pictured on their new page at the Classical Music recording sessions or Classical  mastering studios I have been to.
In the popular genres the more knobs to fiddle with the happier they seem be these days. Unfortunately it has  also   already long ago spilled over to other genres.

Today for the first time in months I actually played some LPs and in spite of its limitations mainly dynamic range related  ones and the fact that distortion rises with amplitude,  and  really deep bass in the middle it was actually  quite nice to hear  some  of my  Sheffield Labs  DIRECT TO DISC LPs without any  limiting or post -processing involved whatsoever.
Just  "honest" three mics in  good  positions in a real venue , to capture how the conductor balanced the orchestra without any edits, thus warts and all.

But  quite realistic and in some ways especially balance-wise ,and  both  regarding soundstage depth  and size and  instrument positions on stage closer to how an orchestra  generally  sounds from a good seat in the hall, than many  multimic´d modern digital recordings released today.
Rob´s own  Blumlein test was a VERY  welcome exception to recordings made to sound impressive on any boombox system through cheating.



 But yes I do  hope  Rob will his Davina ready soon for situations where it will actually matter. IMO  when recording unamplified acoustic music performed in a real acoustic venue.
And not the typical POP Studios where it is not unusual to see the "Band"  playing  each in their own little "acoustic  bubble" while wearing headphones. and into at least  one mic per instrument. Such recording situations have  little resemblance  to how acoustic music sounds live.
Robs´s first Blumlein recording  was  VERY promising  indeed,from a tech point of view, as far as he is concerned. But I am far for convinced Chord Electronics are always on "the same page "as he is.
Cheers Controversial Christer


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## iDesign (May 29, 2022)

miketlse said:


> First time I have spotted this page on Chords website.
> Presumably pro audio (including Davina) will be the next focus, rather than domestic Dacs.


The page was added to the site navigation header in March 2022. The video content is old and some of it dates back to 2016.


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## SteveHulk

Christer said:


> Hmm, interestng yes, but it seems like one of  the PRO tools  is Hugo 2? And judging from the "pics",   it is apparently used in huge mixing desk situations so common in the  synthetic  electronic POP and Rock genres.
> I mostly do not not see such monstrous mixing desks like the one pictured on their new page at the Classical Music recording sessions or Classical  mastering studios I have been to.
> In the popular genres the more knobs to fiddle with the happier they seem be these days. Unfortunately it has  also   already long ago spilled over to other genres.
> 
> ...


I don't even know where to start on this. It is completely a bane for me.

If a recording of an acoustic performance is made then the backbone of the recording should be from a simple stereo microphone array.

If the instruments are miked individually and engineers feel that adjustments to what was recorded by the stereo array must be made then they should pay proper RESPECT to the PHASE differences between the array and the individual mics.

In this digital age with hyper-accurate clocks etc this is not rocket science.

I know in studios that the pressure is on and time is very tight. What happens is that they stick microphones everywhere and tape everything just to get the session over and cut costs. Afterwards people on the mixing desk try to sort the mess out.

This will get them a cheap recording but it won't get them a great recording.

It is as if the audio reproduction companies and the studios need to get together to do research to establish best practice so raising the standard of the audio chain all the way from acoustic venue to living room.


----------



## Malcyg

I had to retrieve some information about my Dave when selling it recently and I was genuinely surprised to learn that Dave is already 7 years old. That is a long time in terms of digital development but it also surprised me because Dave is still pretty much up there after all that while. I thought my comments were complimentary, they were meant to be, but I guess I shouldn’t have had the audacity to suggest that certain others have more than caught up. 😁 For the relative scale of their business, Chord’s achievements generally are quite remarkable imo.

I like the idea of downloadable updates, but I don’t think that Rob’s designs lend themselves to that and also, he strikes me as much more a giant, groundbreaking leaps kind of designer than a tinker round the edges type. But it seems he is working on a new Ultimate/Statement DAC by all accounts and I for one will be very interested in hearing that, though my wallet is less enamoured with the idea.

I have run a Chord DAC in my main system for nearly 12 years now and, whilst I no longer own Dave, I still have 3 Chord DAC’s and a Blu II in the house. You can infer from that that I like them, but Dave can definitely be improved upon and I’m sure it has to be at some point as time and technological advances are marching on. Here’s what I’d like to see:

a) Improved power supply - surely no need for further comment given several on here have spent over £5k on an outboard supply. I considered that myself briefly, but I’m not keen on a 3 box DAC solution that will ultimately become superceded
b) A better interconnect between DAC and scaler - again, no comment necessary as there are hundreds of comments posted already. I know that all the chatter around cables and ferrites has its detractors and, combined with the talk around power supplies, has actually deterred some potential purchasers 
c) Improved USB input - the Amanero USB chipset is a bit long in the tooth now and others have moved on to better, faster boards

From a personal point of view, I would also like to see an analogue volume control as time and experience with various gear has taught me that I far prefer a quality analogue control to digital. It won’t happen though because I know that Rob disagrees. I would also like an Ethernet input - not just for fw updates, but also because I occasionally favour the sound of an Ethernet presentation over USB at certain times and I like the flexibility of having both. (Roon are unequivocal about the separation of Core and Player, although I believe it depends on the system). I would also like to see an integrated scaler for a one box solution - not 3 - but, again, this is very unlikely to happen due to noise considerations.

Anyway, have fun and enjoy your music. I’ll be back when there is concrete news about Rob’s next big thing. 😉


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## Malcyg

Christer said:


> Today for the first time in months I actually played some LPs and in spite of its limitations mainly dynamic range related  ones and the fact that distortion rises with amplitude,  and  really deep bass in the middle it was actually  quite nice to hear



In my recent explorations and dalliances, I have been lucky enough to listen to some Reel to Reel Master tapes which was a most enjoyable experience.


----------



## adrianm

Malcyg said:


> I had to retrieve some information about my Dave when selling it recently and I was genuinely surprised to learn that Dave is already 7 years old. That is a long time in terms of digital development but it also surprised me because Dave is still pretty much up there after all that while. I thought my comments were complimentary, they were meant to be, but I guess I shouldn’t have had the audacity to suggest that certain others have more than caught up. 😁 For the relative scale of their business, Chord’s achievements generally are quite remarkable imo.
> 
> I like the idea of downloadable updates, but I don’t think that Rob’s designs lend themselves to that and also, he strikes me as much more a giant, groundbreaking leaps kind of designer than a tinker round the edges type. But it seems he is working on a new Ultimate/Statement DAC by all accounts and I for one will be very interested in hearing that, though my wallet is less enamoured with the idea.
> 
> ...


God damn it just give us the Dave vs Weiss review, you know you want to  Honest impressions are always welcome  You mentioned the tonality is at least as good, if not better.
   Is the soundstage and imaging as "3d" as Dave +Blu/Hqplayer?


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## chesebert (May 30, 2022)

adrianm said:


> God damn it just give us the Dave vs Weiss review, you know you want to  Honest impressions are always welcome  You mentioned the tonality is at least as good, if not better.
> Is the soundstage and imaging as "3d" as Dave +Blu/Hqplayer?


The pecking order never really changed in high-end digital brands:
Tier 1: dCS, Emm Labs, Linn, MSB, Playback, Nagra
Tier 2: Weiss, Meitner Audio, Berkeley, Bricasti, Naim, T+A, Ayre
Tier 3: Chord, PS Audio, Luxman, McIntosh, Audio Research


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## sm60

Malcyg said:


> I had to retrieve some information about my Dave when selling it recently and I was genuinely surprised to learn that Dave is already 7 years old. That is a long time in terms of digital development but it also surprised me because Dave is still pretty much up there after all that while. I thought my comments were complimentary, they were meant to be, but I guess I shouldn’t have had the audacity to suggest that certain others have more than caught up. 😁 For the relative scale of their business, Chord’s achievements generally are quite remarkable imo.
> 
> I like the idea of downloadable updates, but I don’t think that Rob’s designs lend themselves to that and also, he strikes me as much more a giant, groundbreaking leaps kind of designer than a tinker round the edges type. But it seems he is working on a new Ultimate/Statement DAC by all accounts and I for one will be very interested in hearing that, though my wallet is less enamoured with the idea.
> 
> ...


One common fallacy among audiophiles is that progress is monotonic, meaning a product designed 5,10, or even 50 years ago is less good than the current darling of some reviewer. A well designed product can hold up its own for many decades. Take the Klipschorn loudspeaker designed by Paul Klipsch in the 1940s and the longest continuously produced loudspeaker in the world. In many respects, the Klipschorn has continued to hold up rather well, in some respects it remains an unparalleled masterpiece of speaker design. A 5 watt amplifier will produce a higher volume of low distortion sound from a KHorn than almost any current loudspeaker. Its efficiency is 105dB!  It is brilliantly designed to maximize room coupling by being placed in a corner. Even though it’s large, it is unobtrusive and matches many living room decors. The vast majority of modern loudspeakers, my Quads included, look just ugly compared to a KHorn, and require far more room space and amplifier power than a KHorn. Can the KHorn be improved? Yes, by using DSP to time align the drivers, you might end up with a loudspeaker that’s hard to beat for accuracy. Such tuning was not possible in the 1950s. 

In short, age has zilch to do with how good a hifi product is. The Western Electric 300B tube was produced 90 years ago and could easily last 40,000-50,000 hours of active service. Tubes made today are absolutely horrible in comparison. No wonder mint examples of WE 300Bs sell for many thousands of dollars on eBay. 

Of course, the ultimate test of time in a musical product is the Stradivarius violin. Made roughly 300 years ago in Italy, it can fetch several million dollars today. We can build stealth bombers, nuclear powered aircraft carriers, and spacecraft. No one has yet improved on the sound of a Stradivarius!


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## iDesign

sm60 said:


> One common fallacy among audiophiles is that progress is monotonic, meaning a product designed 5,10, or even 50 years ago is less good than the current darling of some reviewer. A well designed product can hold up its own for many decades. Take the Klipschorn loudspeaker designed by Paul Klipsch in the 1940s and the longest continuously produced loudspeaker in the world. In many respects, the Klipschorn has continued to hold up rather well, in some respects it remains an unparalleled masterpiece of speaker design. A 5 watt amplifier will produce a higher volume of low distortion sound from a KHorn than almost any current loudspeaker. Its efficiency is 105dB!  It is brilliantly designed to maximize room coupling by being placed in a corner. Even though it’s large, it is unobtrusive and matches many living room decors. The vast majority of modern loudspeakers, my Quads included, look just ugly compared to a KHorn, and require far more room space and amplifier power than a KHorn. Can the KHorn be improved? Yes, by using DSP to time align the drivers, you might end up with a loudspeaker that’s hard to beat for accuracy. Such tuning was not possible in the 1950s.
> 
> In short, age has zilch to do with how good a hifi product is. The Western Electric 300B tube was produced 90 years ago and could easily last 40,000-50,000 hours of active service. Tubes made today are absolutely horrible in comparison. No wonder mint examples of WE 300Bs sell for many thousands of dollars on eBay.
> 
> Of course, the ultimate test of time in a musical product is the Stradivarius violin. Made roughly 300 years ago in Italy, it can fetch several million dollars today. We can build stealth bombers, nuclear powered aircraft carriers, and spacecraft. No one has yet improved on the sound of a Stradivarius!


To some extent. Drivers are entirely different than digital audio.


----------



## MvRBE10

So true, recently listen to some old revox gear at my friends house and its truely musical if its newer it surely isnt better tommorow gonna demo a spectral 250 amp to replace my pass design amp. I had reactorcore come over yesterday and he had his denon poa s10 mono blocks with him 20yr old and blew my amp away. I hear spectral is amongst the best transistor amp there is and they change models at most 10 years. So lets hear what this old pupy can do i hope lots of musicality and let my old dave shine…


----------



## jlbrach

the m-scaler is the update to dave and as far as I understand a new one will be coming along


----------



## chesebert (May 30, 2022)

sm60 said:


> One common fallacy among audiophiles is that progress is monotonic, meaning a product designed 5,10, or even 50 years ago is less good than the current darling of some reviewer. A well designed product can hold up its own for many decades. Take the Klipschorn loudspeaker designed by Paul Klipsch in the 1940s and the longest continuously produced loudspeaker in the world. In many respects, the Klipschorn has continued to hold up rather well, in some respects it remains an unparalleled masterpiece of speaker design. A 5 watt amplifier will produce a higher volume of low distortion sound from a KHorn than almost any current loudspeaker. Its efficiency is 105dB!  It is brilliantly designed to maximize room coupling by being placed in a corner. Even though it’s large, it is unobtrusive and matches many living room decors. The vast majority of modern loudspeakers, my Quads included, look just ugly compared to a KHorn, and require far more room space and amplifier power than a KHorn. Can the KHorn be improved? Yes, by using DSP to time align the drivers, you might end up with a loudspeaker that’s hard to beat for accuracy. Such tuning was not possible in the 1950s.
> 
> In short, age has zilch to do with how good a hifi product is. The Western Electric 300B tube was produced 90 years ago and could easily last 40,000-50,000 hours of active service. Tubes made today are absolutely horrible in comparison. No wonder mint examples of WE 300Bs sell for many thousands of dollars on eBay.
> 
> Of course, the ultimate test of time in a musical product is the Stradivarius violin. Made roughly 300 years ago in Italy, it can fetch several million dollars today. We can build stealth bombers, nuclear powered aircraft carriers, and spacecraft. No one has yet improved on the sound of a Stradivarius!





iDesign said:


> To some extent. Drivers are entirely different than digital audio.


I would argue that vintage (mid 90s and early 2000s) digital audio can sound incredibly analog, dynamic and pleasing. There was an all out assault on R2R/multibit from some of the top brands and they produced some incredible sounding machines. You will be limited to 44.1/48 but that's like 99% of the digital music AFAIK. A lot of good stuff out there.


----------



## Sampajanna

After a week of back and forth, I am most likely going to turn my Dave rig in and keep the Lampi. The things it does better, it does really better. There may be some small advantage to the Dave when it comes to microdetails and instrument separation. But all other areas are bested by no small margin. The Lampi has a deeper and wider soundstage, more 3D holographic imaging, richer and meatier tone, more emotional engagement and a certain something—that liquid tube magic—that is very addictive. What’s more I am stoked to reduce 4 boxes to one. Lampi owners on other forums also tell me that if I switch to the 242 tubes I will get the microdetails and separation back. We shall see. For me this is a no brainer, especially since it was an even trade for me and cost me nothing other than a bit of shipping and fees. I am going to do one more back and forth for final good measure but this is how it is leaning now. 

I agree with Malcyg on his upgrade suggestions. I think Chord should take note of what the community has done with their amazing dacs. Hire Sean Jacobs!! By the way, another factor in my decision is that I have an Mscaler + TT2 in my B system in the office. So I will still have that beautiful Chord sound in my life.


----------



## chesebert (May 30, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> After a week of back and forth, I am most likely going to turn my Dave rig in and keep the Lampi. The things it does better, it does really better. There may be some small advantage to the Dave when it comes to microdetails and instrument separation. But all other areas are bested by no small margin. The Lampi has a deeper and wider soundstage, more 3D holographic imaging, richer and meatier tone, more emotional engagement and a certain something—that liquid tube magic—that is very addictive. What’s more I am stoked to reduce 4 boxes to one. Lampi owners on other forums also tell me that if I switch to the 242 tubes I will get the microdetails and separation back. We shall see. For me this is a no brainer, especially since it was an even trade for me and cost me nothing other than a bit of shipping and fees. I am going to do one more back and forth for final good measure but this is how it is leaning now.
> 
> I agree with Malcyg on his upgrade suggestions. I think Chord should take note of what the community has done with their amazing dacs. Hire Sean Jacobs!! By the way, another factor in my decision is that I have an Mscaler + TT2 in my B system in the office. So I will still have that beautiful Chord sound in my life.


How did you get an even trade? Lampi Pacific is like $30k. Dave is at best $7k used these days. Unless your "fees" means $20k lol.

Lampi Pacific is a great sounding dac, congrats!

I predict you will get rid of your TT+Mscaler in due course.


----------



## sm60

Sampajanna said:


> After a week of back and forth, I am most likely going to turn my Dave rig in and keep the Lampi. The things it does better, it does really better. There may be some small advantage to the Dave when it comes to microdetails and instrument separation. But all other areas are bested by no small margin. The Lampi has a deeper and wider soundstage, more 3D holographic imaging, richer and meatier tone, more emotional engagement and a certain something—that liquid tube magic—that is very addictive. What’s more I am stoked to reduce 4 boxes to one. Lampi owners on other forums also tell me that if I switch to the 242 tubes I will get the microdetails and separation back. We shall see. For me this is a no brainer, especially since it was an even trade for me and cost me nothing other than a bit of shipping and fees. I am going to do one more back and forth for final good measure but this is how it is leaning now.
> 
> I agree with Malcyg on his upgrade suggestions. I think Chord should take note of what the community has done with their amazing dacs. Hire Sean Jacobs!! By the way, another factor in my decision is that I have an Mscaler + TT2 in my B system in the office. So I will still have that beautiful Chord sound in my life.


Yes, I’m not surprised by your decision since my reaction to the Lampi was similar. I thought hard about selling my Blu2/Dave and in the end decided to keep it for a second system that’s primarily for playing redbook CDs. My initial woes with Blu2 have gone since the upgrade/service at Chord. Now it plays every CD I throw at it flawlessly. I turn it on when I want to listen to it (usually in the morning) and turn it off around lunch. Evenings are usually Lampi time since the Pacific is a beast that wakes up slowly, but when it does roar like the dragons in Game of Thrones. My Pacific feeds directly into a 300B SET amp that also wakes up slowly. It takes between 30 minutes to an hour for the sound to gel and then it’s magical. With the Chord, it’s not that obvious. Warming up doesn’t change the sound much, so I turn it off when not using it.


----------



## SteveHulk

I will be pulling the trigger on the Farad supplies for my DAVE in the next day or so.

I'm totally looking forward to this 😳😀


----------



## MvRBE10

Nice, you will enjoy.👌


----------



## adrianm

chesebert said:


> How did you get an even trade? Lampi Pacific is like $30k. Dave is at best $7k used these days. Unless your "fees" means $20k lol.
> 
> Lampi Pacific is a great sounding dac, congrats!
> 
> I predict you will get rid of your TT+Mscaler in due course.


I assume it's his DC4 PSU's that closed the gap.


----------



## adrianm

jlbrach said:


> the m-scaler is the update to dave and as far as I understand a new one will be coming along


To that end, you have Hqplayer which, via SRC-DX provides the same upgrade functionality, with even better results IMO. As i understand it, that only replaces/disables the WTA upsampling algorithm, however you can not change/upgrade the WTA filter used for digital to analogue conversion (why even buy a Chord dac at that point though?). It's  this part that is that is actually upgradeable with dCS, for instance.


----------



## alxw0w

adrianm said:


> To that end, you have Hqplayer which, via SRC-DX provides the same upgrade functionality, with even better results IMO. As i understand it, that only replaces/disables the WTA upsampling algorithm, however you can not change/upgrade the WTA filter used for digital to analogue conversion (why even buy a Chord dac at that point though?). It's  this part that is that is actually upgradeable with dCS, for instance.


There is more to the chord dacs than just wta1.
Interpolation filter is just a part of whole.


----------



## zen87192 (May 31, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> I will be pulling the trigger on the Farad supplies for my DAVE in the next day or so.
> 
> I'm totally looking forward to this 😳😀



Nice one! I'm also awaiting my order to be confirmed shortly.


----------



## Malcyg (May 31, 2022)

sm60 said:


> One common fallacy among audiophiles is that progress is monotonic, meaning a product designed 5,10, or even 50 years ago is less good than the current darling of some reviewer. A well designed product can hold up its own for many decades. Take the Klipschorn loudspeaker designed by Paul Klipsch in the 1940s and the longest continuously produced loudspeaker in the world. In many respects, the Klipschorn has continued to hold up rather well, in some respects it remains an unparalleled masterpiece of speaker design. A 5 watt amplifier will produce a higher volume of low distortion sound from a KHorn than almost any current loudspeaker. Its efficiency is 105dB!  It is brilliantly designed to maximize room coupling by being placed in a corner. Even though it’s large, it is unobtrusive and matches many living room decors. The vast majority of modern loudspeakers, my Quads included, look just ugly compared to a KHorn, and require far more room space and amplifier power than a KHorn. Can the KHorn be improved? Yes, by using DSP to time align the drivers, you might end up with a loudspeaker that’s hard to beat for accuracy. Such tuning was not possible in the 1950s.
> 
> In short, age has zilch to do with how good a hifi product is. The Western Electric 300B tube was produced 90 years ago and could easily last 40,000-50,000 hours of active service. Tubes made today are absolutely horrible in comparison. No wonder mint examples of WE 300Bs sell for many thousands of dollars on eBay.
> 
> Of course, the ultimate test of time in a musical product is the Stradivarius violin. Made roughly 300 years ago in Italy, it can fetch several million dollars today. We can build stealth bombers, nuclear powered aircraft carriers, and spacecraft. No one has yet improved on the sound of a Stradivarius!



I totally agree with your comments and especially that folk should not be swayed by reviewers, who generally have commercial motivations. The major point where I would differ though is that digital design is still in its relative infancy compared to analogue source components, amps and speakers which have decades of evolution behind them design wise. I have heard Master Tapes in recent times played on 40 year old reel to reel machines and the sound was superb. Designers of DAC’s, Streamers, Servers and ancillary supplemental devices are still learning how to tame the beast. Once digital technology has reached maturity, then your comments will equally apply. Until then, progress is progress.

Your comment about vintage instruments is not the best analogy though tbh - and I speak as an owner of 3 vintage instruments. I would compare a DAC more to a digital synthesiser than a Stradivarius. 😉

Dave sounded good when it was launched and it still sounds good today. It will still sound good in 5 years time. But I am willing to bet that Rob’s next device will sound better again. He would not be working on the ‘Statement’ DAC if he was not certain that he could improve and move the game on again. Trouble is, with some folk having spent over £20,000 ’maximising’ their Dave, we have a reasonable estimate of where the pricing might start.


----------



## adrianm

Malcyg said:


> He would not be working on the ‘Statement’ DAC if he was not certain that he could improve and move the game on again.


Is this confirmed?


----------



## Malcyg

adrianm said:


> Is this confirmed?



I read it on here, so it must be. 😉


----------



## MvRBE10

I was at a show here and the marketing manager also confirmed his work on the new scaler thingy


----------



## Malcyg

adrianm said:


> God damn it just give us the Dave vs Weiss review, you know you want to  Honest impressions are always welcome  You mentioned the tonality is at least as good, if not better.
> Is the soundstage and imaging as "3d" as Dave +Blu/Hqplayer?



Well, I can say that the DAC 501 4CH is a very good design with tremendous flexibility, but it is not the main DAC in my system. I am also not too keen on it when folk get into stacking one product up against another as it only gets argumentative. It is all about taste and personal preferences and ultimately, nothing trumps that. What one likes is what what one likes and that is enough to make something ‘good’ for that person.


----------



## SteveHulk

SteveHulk said:


> I will be pulling the trigger on the Farad supplies for my DAVE in the next day or so.
> 
> I'm totally looking forward to this 😳😀


And... Done 🙊


----------



## dcp10

miketlse said:


> First time I have spotted this page on Chords website.


Am I missing something, or is the DAVE shown in the "Tim Young | Metropolis Mastering" video not actually connected to anything?!

(See the 7:40 mark, where only a mains cable is visible).


----------



## Sampajanna

adrianm said:


> I assume it's his DC4 PSU's that closed the gap.


Yes, it was my whole rig for the Lampi. I was just ignoring the troll


----------



## Triode User

SteveHulk said:


> I will be pulling the trigger on the Farad supplies for my DAVE in the next day or so.
> 
> I'm totally looking forward to this 😳😀


Will yours be the first ones in the UK or are there any here already? It would be great to hear them compared to a DC4/ARC6. 

@MvRBE10 do you know if there are any yet in the UK?


----------



## MvRBE10 (May 31, 2022)

Thought hulk is from london? (Stephen) i would also be very curious how they compare.

@ hulk, hope you like my artisan cnc ac inlet my little contribution 😂


----------



## Sampajanna

SteveHulk said:


> And... Done 🙊


Congrats!


----------



## MvRBE10

Now listning to a spectral amp wow another level of detail and stage and control… and the analogue/musicality feel is completely back. Better balance between the lows and mids.. got some listning to do upcoming days.. work work 😁


----------



## chesebert (May 31, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> Now listning to a spectral amp wow another level of detail and stage and control… and the analogue/musicality feel is completely back. Better balance between the lows and mids.. got some listning to do upcoming days.. work work 😁


What’s your current amp? Also is your spectral sv1 or sv2?


----------



## MvRBE10

Got an usher thats a threshold pass labs copy. It was becoming to low heavy. Its the spectral dma 250. Budget is kind off low now but this is miles better than the usher it was also the last component that had to be switched. Think i stick to the spectral for a while. Its also like the room is depressurized so much easy and musicality.. live it


----------



## chesebert

MvRBE10 said:


> Got an usher thats a threshold pass labs copy. It was becoming to low heavy. Its the spectral dma 250. Budget is kind off low now but this is miles better than the usher it was also the last component that had to be switched. Think i stick to the spectral for a while. Its also like the room is depressurized so much easy and musicality.. live it


I see. So the old Spectral before the sv. I understand there was a large jump in sound quality going to sv and now sv2.


----------



## MvRBE10

And in price, this one is 3.5k if i jump to the new spectrals we enter the 15k + zone. We probably come there in future but at the moment this amps makes my complete set musical again. And thats the whole point.. the upgradititus will prob enter a while from now but this fills my last irritation for now. Need to do some work on real estate so focus will be there next few months.


----------



## chesebert (May 31, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> And in price, this one is 3.5k if i jump to the new spectrals we enter the 15k + zone. We probably come there in future but at the moment this amps makes my complete set musical again. And thats the whole point.. the upgradititus will prob enter a while from now but this fills my last irritation for now. Need to do some work on real estate so focus will be there next few months.


That's a fair price I think. I heard that amp a couple of times like 10 years ago and it's definitely worth that amount in sound quality. The next quality jump these days is like the $10k mark. The old $5-7k bracket has been creeping up to $10k now.

I think with Spectral you will need to change your dac for sure. I don’t think Chord is a good fit for it due to its thin sounding nature.


----------



## Triode User

MvRBE10 said:


> Thought hulk is from london? (Stephen) i would also be very curious how they compare.
> 
> @ hulk, hope you like my artisan cnc ac inlet my little contribution 😂


Yes, that is why I was asking if his will be the first in the UK. (Last time I looked London is in the UK 😜 🤣 )


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> (Last time I looked London is in the UK 😜 🤣


Well you know there was a petition about a referendum...


----------



## SteveHulk

Triode User said:


> Will yours be the first ones in the UK or are there any here already? It would be great to hear them compared to a DC4/ARC6.
> 
> @MvRBE10 do you know if there are any yet in the UK?


I'd like to think they will be the first, but they haven't even been built yet... 😀


----------



## MvRBE10

chesebert said:


> That's a fair price I think. I heard that amp a couple of times like 10 years ago and it's definitely worth that amount in sound quality. The next quality jump these days is like the $10k mark. The old $5-7k bracket has been creeping up to $10k now.
> 
> I think with Spectral you will need to change your dac for sure. I don’t think Chord is a good fit for it due to its thin sounding nature.


The dave is doing wonderfull not thin at all but found the dave never thin for that matter. This amp is doing better in just about every thing conpared to what i had. Few days of listening and warming up but first impression is a ok. For sure the dave and aurender are shining much better now. Highs are defenitly more detailed and defined and the mids more relaxed present and the bass less pressing but more detailed and textured. Love it but what is most fun for the first time old recording 80’ are sounding nice and relaxed could never enjoy the old stuff i liked so mich for long time and there so much more defenition and rest in these older tracks.

Enjoying


----------



## Reactcore

SteveHulk said:


> And... Done 🙊


Congrats! Get ready for more sleepless nights discovering your music again 🤪


----------



## Kentajalli

Triode User said:


> Yes, that is why I was asking if his will be the first in the UK. (Last time I looked London is in the UK 😜 🤣 )




Brits went everywhere, and took somethings with them, but reaped everything away eventually!  .


----------



## SteveHulk

MvRBE10 said:


> Thought hulk is from london? (Stephen) i would also be very curious how they compare.
> 
> @ hulk, hope you like my artisan cnc ac inlet my little contribution 😂


Yes, I'm from London. Another outpost of mad audiophilia 🤣


----------



## SteveHulk

adrianm said:


> Well you know there was a petition about a referendum...


Don't even remind me... 😔😞😭


----------



## chesebert

MvRBE10 said:


> The dave is doing wonderfull not thin at all but found the dave never thin for that matter. This amp is doing better in just about every thing conpared to what i had. Few days of listening and warming up but first impression is a ok. For sure the dave and aurender are shining much better now. Highs are defenitly more detailed and defined and the mids more relaxed present and the bass less pressing but more detailed and textured. Love it but what is most fun for the first time old recording 80’ are sounding nice and relaxed could never enjoy the old stuff i liked so mich for long time and there so much more defenition and rest in these older tracks.
> 
> Enjoying


Enjoy. I still think you will change out Chord at some point


----------



## SteveHulk

Kentajalli said:


> Brits went everywhere, and took somethings with them, but reaped everything away eventually!  .


Don't forget London, Ontario. Went past it on a visit to Niagara many moons ago... many many moons.


----------



## Reactcore

MvRBE10 said:


> Got an usher thats a threshold pass labs copy. It was becoming to low heavy. Its the spectral dma 250. Budget is kind off low now but this is miles better than the usher it was also the last component that had to be switched. Think i stick to the spectral for a while. Its also like the room is depressurized so much easy and musicality.. live it


No need to lending you the Poa's anymore i presume?


----------



## MvRBE10

chesebert said:


> Enjoy. I still think you will change out Chord at some point


We will see i will prob in time but for now with all the mods and enhancement of the last year, tt2 to dave, scaler, cables, aurender, to farad now the amp and the perlisten sub i will do some rew  and leave it so far at least 1/2 a year to year. Got some renovating to do. Its relaxed now no glare no harsness but its fast detailed etc well you now all the drill. It will always keep itching. But at some point the irritations are gone and the tweaking upgrades starts…


----------



## MvRBE10

Reactcore said:


> No need to lending you the Poa's anymore i presume?


Noop this has all your amps have but even more seperation and resolution and stage… but your amps brought me to this so many thanks… sometimes you hear what you miss althou you know it..


----------



## Reactcore (May 31, 2022)

Still i guess if you can point your gun at POA S1's for good price ofc  ..pull it!
Then i definately come again to listen😁


----------



## audio_1 (Jun 1, 2022)

chesebert said:


> That's a fair price I think. I heard that amp a couple of times like 10 years ago and it's definitely worth that amount in sound quality. The next quality jump these days is like the $10k mark. The old $5-7k bracket has been creeping up to $10k now.
> 
> I think with Spectral you will need to change your dac for sure. I don’t think Chord is a good fit for it due to its thin sounding nature.


Dave and the mscaler are not thin sounding! It is exactly the opposite when setup correctly. Deep resolved bass and extended highs. It makes music, not a smooth uninvolving sound like many other high end dacs. My next upgrade will be the Choral mscaler. Rob Watts is the only dac designer doing digital correctly with a long tap length reconstruction filter and accurate transients imho.


----------



## Slim1970

audio_1 said:


> Dave and the mscaler are not thin sounding! It is exactly the opposite when setup correctly. Deep resolved bass and extended highs. It makes music, not a smooth uninvolving sound like many other high end dacs. My next upgrade will be the Choral mscaler. Rob Watts is the only dac designer doing digital correctly with a long tap length reconstruction filter and accurate transients imho.


Fully agree that the Dave and M-Scaler is not thin sounding. Bass hits hard, is wildly dynamic and defined. The rest of the frequency response is resolving, detailed, with tremendous clarity, staging and depth. Some users just prefer the tone of R2R and tube Dacs, which is fine. In this case, the Dave is not for them. I love my Dave and I can't imagine getting better sound out of a Dac.


----------



## alxw0w

I think that a lot of this thin nonsense comes from just a sound of particular headphones (especially headphones as there is a lot of deviations).
If you pair Dave with headphone that has no bass - you will get that. Dave won't color or add anything.
It's just clean well separated sound, if you lack something it means that your transducer is not producing it.


----------



## iDesign

audio_1 said:


> Dave and the mscaler are not thin sounding! It is exactly the opposite when setup correctly. Deep resolved bass and extended highs. It makes music, not a smooth uninvolving sound like many other high end dacs. My next upgrade will be the Choral mscaler. Rob Watts is the only dac designer doing digital correctly with a long tap length reconstruction filter and accurate transients imho.


I'll give you that. In recent weeks I have not used my DAVE+Blu Mk II+Utopia, but returning to it tonight, it is the most correct _headphone_ reproduction of the solo piano I have heard-- and I include the Sennheiser HE-1 in that. I'm weary of the M Scaler X because Rob Watts already achieved the perfect balance. I recently purchased the Mojo 2 and compared to the original Mojo, it got away from the rose tinted musicality that many have come to love. After 18 years on Head-Fi and owning all of the-best-of-the-best, the original DAVE+Blu Mk II might be the summit.


----------



## audio_1 (Jun 1, 2022)

iDesign said:


> I'll give you that. In recent weeks I have not used my DAVE+Blu Mk II+Utopia, but returning to it tonight, it is the most correct _headphone_ reproduction of the solo piano I have heard-- and I include the Sennheiser HE-1 in that. I'm weary of the M Scaler X because Rob Watts already achieved the perfect balance. I recently purchased the Mojo 2 and compared to the original Mojo, it got away from the rose tinted musicality that many have come to love. After 18 years on Head-Fi and owning all of the-best-of-the-best, the original DAVE+Blu Mk II might be the summit.


I compared the Mojo 2 to the original Mojo. It brought home to me home important mid-range clarity is for prat and musical involvement. The removal of the coupling capacitors from Mojo's analogue output significantly improved drive and dynamics and reduced smear imho. The original Mojo sounded a bit laid back. I wouldn't worry about this with the Mscaler X as Dave is already direct coupled with a digital servo.


----------



## Ards

SteveHulk said:


> I will be pulling the trigger on the Farad supplies for my DAVE in the next day or so.


Expecting mine to ship today.  Farad3 have elevated each device I've connected them to, so am intrigued to hear what they can bring to DAVE.


----------



## 801evan

If the Dave sounds thin.....it's not the Dave. 😂😂 That simple. It's not as impervious to upstream chain as others have claimed.


----------



## Ards

Ards said:


> Expecting mine to ship today.  Farad3 have elevated each device I've connected them to, so am intrigued to hear what they can bring to DAVE.


Yup, just shipped.  Unfortunately, due to Jubilee celebrations, will have to wait until Tuesday, it seems, for delivery.  Will, no doubt, be worth the wait.


----------



## burbster (Jun 1, 2022)

Does anyone use AES input on the Dave? Specs say maximum input is 96kHz, but just wondering if anyone has tried 192 and whether it works?


----------



## MvRBE10

Ards said:


> Yup, just shipped.  Unfortunately, due to Jubilee celebrations, will have to wait until Tuesday, it seems, for delivery.  Will, no doubt, be worth the wait.


Were are you located, did you order the full kit.


----------



## flyte3333

sm60 said:


> No one has yet improved on the sound of a Stradivarius!



But even professional violinists can't pick a Stradivarius from the rest, when blind ! 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25371-pro-violinists-fail-to-spot-stradivarius-in-blind-test/


----------



## Ards

MvRBE10 said:


> Were are you located, did you order the full kit.


UK.  Full kit, yes.


----------



## Reactcore

Ards said:


> UK.  Full kit, yes.


Lol @MvRBE10 time to fire up your tools again for more cable panels😜 to meet the demand


----------



## Malcyg

flyte3333 said:


> But even professional violinists can't pick a Stradivarius from the rest, when blind !
> 
> https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25371-pro-violinists-fail-to-spot-stradivarius-in-blind-test/



Ooof, that hurts. I own vintage instruments and I am certain I can tell the difference. I should try a blind test - although the physical feel will be hard to ignore. 

Interesting post.


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## PhenixS1970 (Jun 2, 2022)

My DAVE is listed in classifieds (first owner, EU and UK sale only) .


----------



## sm60

flyte3333 said:


> But even professional violinists can't pick a Stradivarius from the rest, when blind !
> 
> https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25371-pro-violinists-fail-to-spot-stradivarius-in-blind-test/


I think double blind tests are hard to do right and even harder to generalize from. If you saw a double blind test saying no one could tell the difference between the $13,000 Dave with a $500 Topping, would you believe it?  

I remember almost 35+ years ago as a grad student reading this hifi magazine called Stereo Review. It doesn’t exist any more. It’s main editor Julian Hirsch was an ardent fan of double blind testing. They commissioned a double blind test comparing different amplifiers. They claimed that no one could reliably tell the difference between a $200 el cheapie Radio Shack receiver and a $15,000 Julius Futterman OTL vacuum tube amplifier.

There’s plenty of evidence from biology that the human perceptual system can be tuned over time to discriminate among stimuli that initially was not distinguishable. For example, the legendary pianist Vladimir Horowitz would not record on humid days because he felt humidity changed the sound of his piano. Perhaps you or I would not be able to tell the difference, but I assume since he played on that same Steinway piano for decades, his hearing was acutely sensitive to its sound. 

Another terrific example I read was from the Pulitzer Prize winning book by Jonathan Weiner called The Beak of the Finch. It tells the story of this husband/wife pair of Princeton biologists who spent every summer on a lonely volcanic island in the Galapagos with their grad students tracking the population of finches. Imagine you are on this hot volcanic island day in day out for weeks on end with nothing to go but watch the finches. It turns out the students could easily recognize each individual finch by sight before the end of each summer. They were initially just a group of undifferentiated birds. But in a few weeks every little nuance of their appearance became imprinted in their memory. 

I can well imagine professional violin players who spend decades playing violins would be attuned to their sound far better than I would. In turn, I listen to my Quads every day for a few hours for many years. I know its sound intimately and can detect changes upstream instantly. 

But it’s hard to quantify these comparisons. Perhaps we are fooling ourselves. We could all save a lot of money if we believed a $50 Blu Ray player from Walmart is as good as the Blu/Dave.


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## flyte3333 (Jun 1, 2022)

sm60 said:


> If you saw a double blind test saying no one could tell the difference between the $13,000 Dave with a $500 Topping, would you believe it?


Have you actually seen one of these done or done one yourself?

Before the study I linked, would you have thought a bunch of pro violinists wouldn't be able to pick Stradivarius from cheaper?

This is the thing about double blind tests - you can't just talk about what you think would happen and say I could easily do this and easily do that.

You actually have to do it ( if you're actually interested in the results).



sm60 said:


> But it’s hard to quantify these comparisons. Perhaps we are fooling ourselves. We could all save a lot of money if we believed a $50 Blu Ray player from Walmart is as good as the Blu/Dave.



Well you've gone to extremes here.

Your post started with comparing exceptional measuring devices (from APx555 data we've seen) to throwing a Walmart player at the end of your post.


----------



## sm60

flyte3333 said:


> Have you actually seen one of these done or done one yourself?
> 
> Before the study I linked, would you have thought a bunch of pro violinists wouldn't be able to pick Stradivarius from cheaper?
> 
> ...


That’s the thing with double blind testing. It’s an all or nothing proposition, once you accept its validity, you have to apply it universally. Peter Walker, legendary designer of the Quad electrostatics, was a firm believer in double blind testing of amplifiers. He always maintained there was no audible difference between two amplifiers as long as they were level matched and neither was distorting or being operated outside its zone. He believed this with so much passion that legend had it that he never listened to any of his amplifiers before selling them (including his famous current dumping designs that Quad sold in the hundreds of thousands). He arranged for double blind tests and they never revealed any systematic differences. But as much as I revere Walker for his work on the Quad electrostatics, his view was not universally shared among amplifier designers. Nelson Pass here in California is probably the most famous living designer of solid state amplifiers. Pass believes passionately that each amplifier has a personality. He setup a secondary company called First Watt that produces quirky designs (e.g., 18 watt solid state amplifiers that distort like tubes but sound very nice according to those who buy them). Pass is of course also famous for his massive no/holds barred 350.8 and 250.8 etc. models that weigh over 100 pounds and cost more than the Dave. But he also like his quirky lightweight First Watt models that have personality. Peter Walker would never have done that. He was an engineer’s engineer, straight by the book. Measure and don’t waste time listening. 

Designers vary all over the map. Harbeth’s Alan Shaw firmly believes the only thing that matters is the loudspeaker and the room. Electronics (he calls them “ancillaries”) don’t matter at all. Use the cheapest one that is reliable. He uses the Quad 303, the first solid state amplifier Walker designed 60 years ago because it is absolutely bullet proof. It was Pink Floyd’s favorite amplifier. Shaw believes firmly that there are absolutely no audible differences between CD players, DACs or amplifiers. Use the cheapest and most reliable ancillaries you can find. Spend the money, if you have it, on a better loudspeaker or on room treatments like absorption panels. 

In short, if you believe in double blind testing, you sell all your high end equipment with the exception of your loudspeakers. 😀


----------



## MvRBE10

Just had a full day with the new spectral amp and man this is a keeper but whats more funny did some reading up on the brand and what they stand for, but its a very reserved company no advertisement no review very few updates on product as in long life span before new version. That last one adds up with the chord dave but there design strategy behind the amp is almost the same as rob watts his insight views on music and implementation into electronics. Very fast acting risetimes in the nano’s on these amps what delivers a very wide and natural sound stage with immense seperation and a clean wide bandwith from 1hz in the mhz what sort of coinsides sortof with rob’s his low noise floor modulation. 

The input of spectral is sensitive of faulty signal because of this and why they only advise there own or mit cables to prevent this noise to unbalance there amps. Same vision that rob has hence his clean dac. These two pair up like the best i ever heard (that says ofcourse nothing😎) but anyways i heard alot rigs on shows and at other people’s home but for the first time my own rig sounds best to me and thats a first time ever as audiophiles like we alway are critical when we get home and never satisfied😁.

My son came home and says dad your rig always sounds beautifull and detailed but for the first time now its also fun, loose and joyfull to listen to (translate into musical). And his music went on for the next hours🥲

Anybody else here has experience with the spectral brand very curious about your opinions.


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## 801evan (Jun 2, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> Just had a full day with the new spectral amp and man this is a keeper but whats more funny did some reading up on the brand and what they stand for, but its a very reserved company no advertisement no review very few updates on product as in long life span before new version. That last one adds up with the chord dave but there design strategy behind the amp is almost the same as rob watts his insight views on music and implementation into electronics. Very fast acting risetimes in the nano’s on these amps what delivers a very wide and natural sound stage with immense seperation and a clean wide bandwith from 1hz in the mhz what sort of coinsides sortof with rob’s his low noise floor modulation.
> 
> The input of spectral is sensitive of faulty signal because of this and why they only advise there own or mit cables to prevent this noise to unbalance there amps. Same vision that rob has hence his clean dac. These two pair up like the best i ever heard (that says ofcourse nothing😎) but anyways i heard alot rigs on shows and at other people’s home but for the first time my own rig sounds best to me and thats a first time ever as audiophiles like we alway are critical when we get home and never satisfied😁.
> 
> ...


Just did a few upgrades and yes!! For months I would say my upgrades always made playback tighter but now it sounds loose, and in a good way. Like this one is roomier and more relaxed, yet still maintaining that tightness but the further lack of congestion just makes it sounds loose.


----------



## TheAttorney

burbster said:


> Does anyone use AES input on the Dave? Specs say maximum input is 96kHz, but just wondering if anyone has tried 192 and whether it works?


Yes, I've used 192k for many months with no issues at all, and SQ from my Grimm MU1 server is excellent with a good AES cable. And not a ferrite in sight  
Initially I compared a number of AES cables at different price ranges and they all worked fine at 192k.
Rob has previously stated that the specified limit was just a general precaution, not a hard rule. YMMV with different servers.


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## flyte3333 (Jun 2, 2022)

sm60 said:


> Peter Walker would never have done that. He was an engineer’s engineer, straight by the book. Measure and* don’t waste time listening.*


That wouldn't be following the correct book. Measure and blind test *listen* (both!) is best 

Floyd Toole and Sean Olive are good resources.



sm60 said:


> Designers vary all over the map.



Yes and as long as people buy their products, variation will be around for ever.

The market is big and can cater for different preferences.

If Nelson P keeps selling amps as is and makes good money why would he change his methods dramatically?
It wouldn't be a good business decision for him to start chasing measurements like a Benchmark AHB2 if his current approach works financially for him


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## 801evan

flyte3333 said:


> It wouldn't be a good business decision for him to start chasing measurements like a Benchmark AHB2 if his current approach works financially for him


Just the past month alone the 3 big advocates of the ahb2 and whom have been ridiculing me (and the Dave) have put their lovely transparent up for sale. 😂


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## flyte3333 (Jun 2, 2022)

801evan said:


> Just the past month alone the 3 big advocates of the ahb2 and whom have been ridiculing me (and the Dave) have put their lovely transparent up for sale. 😂



The way you write that, it's as if there are no 2nd hand Daves and Hugo TTs and Hugos and Qutests up for sale all around the world right now.

Probably more than 3 units...

But to me that doesn't mean anything.

There's no conclusion to be drawn from any of that? Right?

Mixing discussions of measurements/blind testing and sales doesn't make any sense to me.


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## alxw0w

Conclusion is this:
Some people are still chasing the rabbit 
Nothing more nothing less


----------



## flyte3333

alxw0w said:


> Conclusion is this:
> Some people are still chasing the rabbit
> Nothing more nothing less



Agreed!

Ok enough off-topic from me I think.

Will leave the thread back to Dave.


----------



## 801evan

flyte3333 said:


> The way you write that, it's as if there are no 2nd hand Daves and Hugo TTs and Hugos and Qutests up for sale all around the world right now.
> 
> Probably more than 3 units...
> 
> ...


There was an air of objectivity was the point of their claims and at the expense of Chord products.


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## burbster

TheAttorney said:


> Yes, I've used 192k for many months with no issues at all, and SQ from my Grimm MU1 server is excellent with a good AES cable. And not a ferrite in sight
> Initially I compared a number of AES cables at different price ranges and they all worked fine at 192k.
> Rob has previously stated that the specified limit was just a general precaution, not a hard rule. YMMV with different servers.


Thanks for the reply! Funnily enough that was why I was asking as I’ve been contemplating changing out my mscaler for an mu1, or do I wait for the new Dave mscaler? I have noticed a few people have made this switch, including yourself I presume? But most were using the usb input into the mscaler, which in my opinion is not it’s best input, did you ever compare mscaler using a coaxial or fibre input compared to the mu1? Just wondering whether the improvements the mu1 bring are perhaps partly down to not having to use usb?


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## jcn3

burbster said:


> Thanks for the reply! Funnily enough that was why I was asking as I’ve been contemplating changing out my mscaler for an mu1, or do I wait for the new Dave mscaler? I have noticed a few people have made this switch, including yourself I presume? But most were using the usb input into the mscaler, which in my opinion is not it’s best input, did you ever compare mscaler using a coaxial or fibre input compared to the mu1? Just wondering whether the improvements the mu1 bring are perhaps partly down to not having to use usb?



i'm using a simaudio moon mind 2 into my dave with aes cable.  like mentioned, i get 192k all day and even DSD64.


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## TheAttorney (Jun 4, 2022)

burbster said:


> Thanks for the reply! Funnily enough that was why I was asking as I’ve been contemplating changing out my mscaler for an mu1, or do I wait for the new Dave mscaler? I have noticed a few people have made this switch, including yourself I presume? But most were using the usb input into the mscaler, which in my opinion is not it’s best input, did you ever compare mscaler using a coaxial or fibre input compared to the mu1? Just wondering whether the improvements the mu1 bring are perhaps partly down to not having to use usb?


My full journey is in the Grimm MU1 thread at AudiophileStyle.
Here I'll elaborate about USB vs other connections....

The MU1 has only AES and RCA S/PDIF outputs. HMS has only USB, Optical and BNC S/PDIF inputs.
Therefore I connected MU1 to HMS with a stock Grimm S/PDIF cable with a RCA->BNC converter.
This gave no SQ improvement (and maybe a degradation) compared to MU1 direct AES to DAVE. Which could have been due to cable differences. Or maybe it's not a good idea to cascade upsampling components?

My downsizing objective was to determine if a 2-box system (MU1 -> DAVE) could improve upon my previous multi-box, multi-cable system (including USB, see the AS thread). The answer was that yes it could.

There were too many variables to conclude exactly which component impacted what SQ. What I can say is that my previous system had top quality USB cables (Sablon 2020), top quality BNC cables (Vertere HB Pulse) and top quality Power Supply (PH SR7) powering the tweaked NUC, HMS and ISORegen. So it was a carefully optimised system. Could it have been further improved by, say, adding an optical bridge, or upgrading ISORegen to a Phoenix USB reclocker? Most likely, but my objective was to downsize.

The HMS is still agreat product that has served me well and it did significantly improve DAVE. I'm sure the new one will be better still. And continully trying to get the best out of such components is part of the fun of this hobby - it can also get rather expensive in time and money. I've found the journey interesting and rewarding, but having been there done that, I've now opted for a simpler life.

PS. Getting the MU1 doesn't necessarily stop audiophile tweaking (because everything still matters), but it does significantly reduce the scope of what's available to tweak


----------



## adrianm

TheAttorney said:


> I've found the journey interesting and rewarding, but having been there done that, I've now opted for a simpler life.


This is why i’m actually considering a Lina dac (not at retail price,that’s for sure) even though i know half the cost is brand image at this point


----------



## ZappaMan

The “realism” of vocals on Dave is amazing to me, I think it’s the “best” thing about Dave.






This album, the vocals were ways good but kind of harsh or even stereotypical or something, but now they sound like just a voice, rather than what would previously have sounded like which is .. processed.


----------



## catac

Hello,
Does anyone here had a chance to experiment with the new Farad 3 upgrade power source for Dave? I would really be curious about the improvements. Thank you.


----------



## catac

MvRBE10 said:


> Nice, you will enjoy.👌


Did you had the chance to experiment with the new Farad 3 power? Can you describe a little bit the improvements? Thank you.


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## MvRBE10 (Jun 5, 2022)

Yes i did for a few month now its heaven. If you search a bit back you will find some impressions i wrote when listen to it the first few weeks. Or pm me i can send them. It gives the dave much more musicality, bass texture, stage and focus. And not a bit but alot. A few here already have them ordered and shipped so my guess is next week there impressions will also follow. I also have the farad super3 with silver dc cable on the mscaler and i use the storm wave bnc cables.


----------



## catac

MvRBE10 said:


> Yes i did for a few month now its heaven. If you search a bit back you will find some impressions i wrote when listen to it the first few weeks. Or pm me i can send them. It gives the dave much more musicality, bass texture, stage and focus. And not a bit but alot. A few here already have them ordered and shipped so my guess is next week there impressions will also follow. I also have the farad super3 with silver dc cable on the mscaler and i use the storm wave bnc cables.


Thank you so much for your answer. Did you bought it directly from Farad? Did you modified yourself the Dave?


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## MvRBE10

All the hardware is directly from farad and it comes with a super easy install manual, look below. Around 10min job. I helped farad develope it and abused my dave for it 😎.


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## catac

MvRBE10 said:


> All the hardware is directly from farad and it comes with a super easy install manual, look below. Around 10min job. I helped farad develope it and abused my dave for it 😎.


Thank you! Fantastic job, Sir


----------



## TheAttorney

MvRBE10 said:


> All the hardware is directly from farad and it comes with a super easy install manual, look below. Around 10min job. I helped farad develope it and abused my dave for it 😎.


Any recommendations for power cords and connectors, seeing as you need 3 of them.
I've previously determined that power cords, connectors and fuses all matter at this level.
Did you try connecting 3 power cords to a single wall plug?

I thought someone was going to compare the Farad vs DC4 power supplies. Ideally also vs DC3, so we could get an idea of the SQ gains at different price points.


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## MvRBE10 (Jun 5, 2022)

I made my own from furutech seems these pair the best with the farads (tcs021 take the thin version) i made a three to one construction so it only costs me one ac socket. I also use the purple fuses and rodium inlets.


----------



## alxw0w

I'm trying as hard as I can not to buy farad3 for my Dave.
But I'm sure I won't last long ☺️


----------



## MvRBE10

alxw0w said:


> I'm trying as hard as I can not to buy farad3 for my Dave.
> But I'm sure I won't last long ☺️


You will fail master ‘obi wan’


----------



## Articnoise

MvRBE10 said:


> I made my own from furutech seems these pair the best with the farads (tcs021 take the thin version) i made a three to one construction so it only costs me one ac socket. I also use the purple fuses and rodium inlets.



Would be better if Fared made a PSU with one AC inlet and one outlet, IMO.


----------



## MvRBE10

Articnoise said:


> Would be better if Fared made a PSU with one AC inlet and one outlet, IMO.


Could be but the philosophy is that its better that every toroid(farad super3) has his own ac lead. Else its a all in one box again. If than as when it, but it is what it is😁


----------



## Articnoise

MvRBE10 said:


> Could be but the philosophy is that its better that every toroid(farad super3) has his own ac lead. Else its a all in one box again. If than as when it, but it is what it is😁


Every transformer doesn't need its own AC lead, especially if they are to feed only one gear/DAC. Many many audio gear has two or more transformers. My DAC for example has three, one for the digital and two others for the analog (one for left and one for the right channel).


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## MvRBE10

Thats correct so this way the analoge and digital path stays separated. But these are the choises farad makes everybody has his own reasons to do it there way. You can also drop them in a big shoebox and wire the ac together problem solved for a few bucks. But i wonder if it is the best way🤔. Try and listenen


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## paulrbarnard

MvRBE10 said:


> Thats correct so this way the analoge and digital path stays separated. But these are the choises farad makes everybody has his own reasons to do it there way. You can also drop them in a big shoebox and wire the ac together problem solved for a few bucks. But i wonder if it is the best way🤔. Try and listenen


The Super ATX has three transformers and one power cord…


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## MvRBE10

Yes and? So internally the noise can interfere, with the farads the filters in the powerblocks can do there work! If you only want a one box solution the farads are not for you so any discussion about it is not rellevant. Same as the dcs and other one box dac solutions. Every engineer think different and has is own opinion on these matters… patato pattato..


----------



## paulrbarnard

MvRBE10 said:


> Yes and? So internally the noise can interfere, with the farads the filters in the powerblocks can do there work! If you only want a one box solution the farads are not for you so any discussion about it is not rellevant. Same as the dcs and other one box dac solutions. Every engineer think different and has is own opinion on these matters… patato pattato..


And, just pointing out that Farad doesn’t seem to see a problem with a more integrated approach. As an uninformed bystander it looks more like the Farad3 for Dave was implemented simply by taking three existing units and changing the voltages as a quick and efficient way to market rather than a specific choice for noise.


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## MvRBE10

It were two existing units indeed and he made the -15v new as the others are proven very good lps’s. So yes and his farads are marketed as seperate units with also the purpose for seperate units than van be tuned to each whishes. So yes correct


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## MvRBE10 (Jun 5, 2022)

Something completely different for our critical listeners i am the last few days almost non stop testing and listening and something strange but also not is happening. Since i have the spectral dma amp here everything is upped a notch in musicality and i noticed that i tended to set my mscaler each time to 44.1/16 not upscaling and it sounded much more relaxing to me so a hour ago i took the whole scaler out of the chain and just attached optical and the wave bnc. Optical is slightly thinner but clean and the bnc is somewhat fuller and richer but both uber musical. I like all my music much more without the scaler for the first time ever.

I got the feeling because the dave is very clean in power now and the amp is of another class there is no scaling neccesary it only takes away the musicality and its more fatiguing.

Are there more people with this observation? Readed some in the past but was hard to grasp for me at the time but now it can’t be unheared in my setup.


----------



## sm60 (Jun 6, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> Something completely different for our critical listeners i am the last few days almost non stop testing and listening and something strange but also not is happening. Since i have the spectral dma amp here everything is upped a notch in musicality and i noticed that i tended to set my mscaler each time to 44.1/16 not upscaling and it sounded much more relaxing to me so a hour ago i took the whole scaler out of the chain and just attached optical and the wave bnc. Optical is slightly thinner but clean and the bnc is somewhat fuller and richer but both uber musical. I like all my music much more without the scaler for the first time ever.
> 
> I got the feeling because the dave is very clean in power now and the amp is of another class there is no scaling neccesary it only takes away the musicality and its more fatiguing.
> 
> Are there more people with this observation? Readed some in the past but was hard to grasp for me at the time but now it can’t be unheared in my setup.





alxw0w said:


> Conclusion is this:
> Some people are still chasing the rabbit
> Nothing more nothing less


Speaking of chasing the rabbit, has anyone heard the highly rated Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC? One advantage is that like the Lampi PAC, it’s got a LAN input and it’s Roon Ready. Like the Dave, it’s solid state and can serve as a preamp. I gather it essentially upsamples all data to a high bit  rate pulse width modulated signal. They also sell a highly rated Class D amplifier, the Mola Mola Kaluga.

https://www.mola-mola.nl/tambaqui.php


----------



## alxw0w

sm60 said:


> Speaking of chasing the rabbit, has anyone heard the highly rated Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC? One advantage is that like the Lampi PAC, it’s got a LAN input and it’s Roon Ready. Like the Dave, it’s solid state and can serve as a preamp. I gather it essentially upsamples all data to a high bit  rate pulse width modulated signal. They also sell a highly rated Class D amplifier, the Mola Mola Kaluga.
> 
> https://www.mola-mola.nl/tambaqui.php


Nope I have not heard MM Tambaaqui. Maybe I'll in the future - but out of pure curiosity.
I caught my rabbit  I don't plan to make any major changes to my system in the near future.
Just some tweaks with cables and power supply for Dave.


----------



## Reactcore

alxw0w said:


> Nope I have not heard MM Tambaaqui. Maybe I'll in the future - but out of pure curiosity.
> I caught my rabbit  I don't plan to make any major changes to my system in the near future.
> Just some tweaks with cables and power supply for Dave.


Yes me too..
I can live with MDave for a long time.. i feel no need to change.. i will make my Dave battery supply still.. just for my own hobby


----------



## TheAttorney

sm60 said:


> Speaking of chasing the rabbit, has anyone heard the highly rated Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC? One advantage is that like the Lampi PAC, it’s got a LAN input and it’s Roon Ready. Like the Dave, it’s solid state and can serve as a preamp. I gather it essentially upsamples all data to a high bit  rate pulse width modulated signal. They also sell a highly rated Class D amplifier, the Mola Mola Kaluga.
> 
> https://www.mola-mola.nl/tambaqui.php


I briefly compared MMT vs T+A 200 vs DAVE at a dealer's showroom. All as DAC+headphone amp driven by MU1 server. Headphones were both T+A models and my own HEK. My objective was to determine if there was a compelling reason to switch from DAVE to either of these DAC/amps. I was not looking for subtle side steps.

The short answer was that there was no compelling reason to switch from my DAVE. 
I didn't spend long enough on this particular comparison to be confident of a pecking order, but FWIW I slightly preferred DAVE over either of the other two.
The MMT seemed to be the most precise and detailed, but with a touch of unwanted brightness and glare, which surprised me.

All three of these were of a high standard and I'm sure that any quirks could be resolved by tweaking and system matching. But as there was no compelling reason to change from DAVE, there was no reason for me to investigate further. And I didn't try the LAN input of the MMT, just whatever connector the dealer chose as being most appropriate for each model.


----------



## audio_1 (Jun 6, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> Something completely different for our critical listeners i am the last few days almost non stop testing and listening and something strange but also not is happening. Since i have the spectral dma amp here everything is upped a notch in musicality and i noticed that i tended to set my mscaler each time to 44.1/16 not upscaling and it sounded much more relaxing to me so a hour ago i took the whole scaler out of the chain and just attached optical and the wave bnc. Optical is slightly thinner but clean and the bnc is somewhat fuller and richer but both uber musical. I like all my music much more without the scaler for the first time ever.
> 
> I got the feeling because the dave is very clean in power now and the amp is of another class there is no scaling neccesary it only takes away the musicality and its more fatiguing.
> 
> Are there more people with this observation? Readed some in the past but was hard to grasp for me at the time but now it can’t be unheared in my setup.


I think this proves, optical connections, i.e. the Opto-DX, separate power supply lines and physical distance are the only way to completely eliminate RF noise from the Mscaler and digital sources affecting the Dave (*or any other DAC*) and analogue electronics. Perhaps Spectral amps are also affected by RF noise due to their wide MHz bandwidth design. In my system the Dave is far more musical and darker sounding as it should be when mscaling with the Blu2. Hopefully Chord will incorporate digital connections on the forthcoming Choral mScaler. MSB optionally sell a digital input hub (The Digital Director) using Duplex LC OS2 single mode fibre and SFP modules to connect digital sources to their DACs.


----------



## Reactcore

audio_1 said:


> I think this proves, optical connections, i.e. the Opto-DX, separate power supply lines and physical distance are the only way to completely eliminate RF noise from the Mscaler and digital sources affecting the Dave (*or any other DAC*) and analogue electronics. Perhaps Spectral amps are also affected by RF noise due to their wide MHz bandwidth design. In my system the Dave is far more musical and darker sounding as it should be when mscaling with the Blu2. Hopefully Chord will incorporate digital connections on the forthcoming Choral mScaler. MSB optionally sell a digital input hub (The Digital Director) using Duplex LC OS2 single mode fibre and SFP modules to connect digital sources to their DACs.



Thats the difference between Wave's ferrite approach and optical.. Wave suppresses RF while optical is totally unconductive to it.


----------



## alxw0w (Jun 7, 2022)

I had both remedies tested in my system, I mean opto-dx and wave storm.
Keep in mind that my power supply for both tx and rx side of opto was far from begin optimal (I had connected it to 5v power banks and used simple dc dc converter to 12v)
Mscaler was powered using farad3 (in both cases). Opto was connected with my DIY bnc cables with ferrites.

And I'm not sure if I could tell the difference. It was so close and the time that was needed to switch between two setups was not helping either.
At the end I decided to keep Wave Storm and sell optodx. It's more elegant approach, with opto you have four boxes (2 opto, 2 power supply) and a cable salad on top of that.

My point is you cannot go wrong with both approaches, you have to choose what fits you more.
Optodx is cheaper at start, but when you want to squeeze as much SQ as you want you will probably end up buying some highend LPS for opto and suddenly price can be the same or even higher than Waves.

Maybe in the future when I'll switch to 2 channel system I buy opto dxonce again and use it along with Wave Storms?
But I don't know if it's worth the hassle.


----------



## 801evan

alxw0w said:


> I had both remedies tested in my system, I mean opto-dx and wave storm.
> Keep in mind that my power supply for both tx and rx side of opto was far from begin optimal (I had connected it to 5v power banks and used simple dc dc converter to 12v)
> Mscaler was powered using farad3 (in both cases). Opto was connected with my DIY bnc cables with ferrites.
> 
> ...


Powerbank was crippling the opto dx, but having a good psu powering the opto dx can be cost prohibitive and also require a line conditioner and such. But with such a setup, this is why the difference neglible.


----------



## Kentajalli (Jun 7, 2022)

801evan said:


> .......... also require a line conditioner and such. But with such a setup, this is why the difference neglible.


Just a general suggestion.
I use devices such as these as power line filters, they are effective.



They are cheap and are from TV's - you just need to be a little creative with wiring.
I use them as out boxes, to hide them where they would not be easily seen, with short cables (no more than 300mm) to connect to my individual mains powered devices, including and specially power amps. The one above is rated at 9A (over 2000W continuous), you can find lower power ones for as low as £5!


----------



## 801evan

Kentajalli said:


> Just a general suggestion.
> I use devices such as these as power line filters, they are effective.
> 
> 
> ...


Yea. You get what you pay for still so you can try more expensive filters like the one above too.

Also re-read about the opto dx setup and it has two culprits.
1. Powerbank
to
2. 5v to 12v up converter.

#2 is very noisy.


----------



## Kentajalli

801evan said:


> Yea. You get what you pay for still so you can try more expensive filters like the one above too.
> 
> Also re-read about the opto dx setup and it has two culprits.
> 1. Powerbank
> ...


I was not following the discussion - hence "Just a general suggestion".
Again a general point:
2.5V to 12V up-converter must be a switch-mode supply. Although SMPS generate RF, but their noise is mostly benign! Because it is not random noise.
It is the random RF noise that does the damage, SMPS noise is of a predicted repetitive, known bandwidth, artefact, that happens to be in the RF region, but filtering it is easy, and most equipments manage to do it very effectively. 
The only true random RF filtering is optical isolation.


----------



## 801evan

Usually buck converters are part of the design and those are very noisy


----------



## Somatic

Please PM if interested in trading a like new TT2 under warranty for a Dave under warranty as well. Thanks


----------



## Somatic (Jun 8, 2022)

Ok. Joining the Dave crew. Just ordered a used Dave. Will finally compare it against the TT2. Not planning to buy M-Scaler at this time. Probably later.

Hoping the Dave can power the LCD5 and Solitaire P directly. If I like the Dave, will probably let the Susvara's go.

@Currawong Let's see if its "like injecting the music in your veins" ... I think you said something to this effect in your review lol. hehe


----------



## alxw0w

Somatic said:


> Ok. Joining the Dave crew. Just ordered a used Dave. Will finally compare it against the TT2. Not planning to buy M-Scaler at this time. Probably later.
> 
> Hoping the Dave can power the LCD5 and Solitaire P directly. If I like the Dave, will probably let the Susvara's go.
> 
> @Currawong Let's see if its "like injecting the music in your veins" ... I think you said something to this effect on your review lol. hehe


LCD 5 and SP are no problem for Dave. You will be fine.
And I strongly advise you to use toslink input with Dave instead USB - or BNC if you have high quality streamer.

And as always report your thoughts


----------



## Somatic

alxw0w said:


> LCD 5 and SP are no problem for Dave. You will be fine.
> And I strongly advise you to use toslink input with Dave instead USB - or BNC if you have high quality streamer.
> 
> And as always report your thoughts


Yes, I'm using Toslink with the TT2. I can tell a big difference compared to USB.


----------



## alxw0w

Somatic said:


> Yes, I'm using Toslink with the TT2. I can tell a big difference compared to USB.


My man


----------



## Reactcore

Somatic said:


> Ok. Joining the Dave crew. Just ordered a used Dave.



And how is your initial impression?
I see it popped up in your signature😄


----------



## Somatic

Reactcore said:


> And how is your initial impression?
> I see it popped up in your signature😄


Will get it in a few days. Being shipped today. I just wanted to finally add Dave in my signature LOL ....


----------



## MvRBE10

Somatic said:


> Will get it in a few days. Being shipped today. I just wanted to finally add Dave in my signature LOL ....


I am selling my black m scaler so if you want to go all-in 😁


----------



## Reactcore

Somatic said:


> Will get it in a few days. Being shipped today. I just wanted to finally add Dave in my signature LOL ....


Looks  ..Elite🤪


----------



## Somatic

I've been reading the Dave forum posts through out the years. Off and on. I am aware there are some upgrades. Can someone guide me to a short list of possible upgrades. Power source etc?


----------



## MvRBE10

There are a bunch,

If you start with the:

m scaler, than the following
Storm wave bnc cables
Powersupply for the scaler
Powersupply for the dave

Than the minor tweeks start
Power cables
Src-dx solutions
Dampning feet

All can be chosen icm with what your preferences are or to tweek the sound into your existing system.

Its a fun journy i liked and still like. I see it as a hobby just as the listening part.


----------



## Somatic

MvRBE10 said:


> There are a bunch,
> 
> If you start with the:
> 
> ...


Can you elaborate on the power supply options? Thanks.


----------



## sm60

Somatic said:


> Can you elaborate on the power supply options? Thanks.


The most talked about power supply “upgrade” for the Dave and the Blu2/M-Scaler is Sean Jacobs external linear power supply: 

https://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/power-supplies/dc4-power-supply

Keep in mind that this is not cheap. For the Dave, it will set you back $7500! Your warranty is voided and if you fry your $13K DAC installing it, you have a very expensive $20K brick (which can buy you a nice used car!). But these are trivial concerns for the many brave explorers on this forum who have bought this power supply and sing its praises. 

I have not heard it nor do I intend to invest in this “upgrade”.  For one, I’d have to buy it for the Blu2 and the Dave, which doubles the price. For $15K, one can get state of the art loudspeakers or several top of the line headphones. I did splurge about this amount on a used Lampizator Pacific, which is a vastly different sounding DAC from the solid state Dave due to its use of direct heated triodes. But that’s a different type of insanity. 😀

Humans love to tinker. It’s in our DNA. We are never happy with a non-tweakable product. Perish the thought of just enjoying the Dave as it was originally designed. I mean, what’s the fun of just listening to music with the stock Dave? No, as humans, we have an irresistible urge to explore tweaks. Better BNC cables. Better power supplies. Better USB cables. Better routers. Better stands. The list of potential tweaks is infinite as long as you have the resources. 

Excuse me, I need to roll a different tube in my Lampi DAC. 😀


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jun 8, 2022)

The power supply and wave cables make the dave more musical, open and better sound stage etc.. i think all tweeks and upgrades bring you closer to your personel nirvana. Up to personel taste and budget if you like it and which to pick.

Ps i have the farad dave lps upgrade this is the new kid on the block that is for the dave. Incl. Safe monitoring pcb. Search and read a bit back and you will find photos and install manuals on the new lps. Farad has also for a long time power supplys for mscaler, tt2 qutest etc…


----------



## zen87192

Somatic said:


> Can you elaborate on the power supply options? Thanks.


https://www.faradpowersupplies.com/...tion-assembly-80cm-gx16-4-to-molex-connector/


----------



## MvRBE10

zen87192 said:


> https://www.faradpowersupplies.com/...tion-assembly-80cm-gx16-4-to-molex-connector/


Did not see that yet, indeed cool pictures and a elaboration that explains it all 👍🏻


----------



## Somatic

adrianm said:


> Now that you mention it, my Qed optical cable also has no problem playing 24/196 to the m-scaler, just tested it. It seems Dave is the problem.


Is there any optical cable that plays 24/196 on the Dave? What optical cables are people using? I never listen to DSD etc. Just Streaming services and some flac files.


----------



## MvRBE10

The original one is the one i never had trouble  with tried a few but had issues onnthe highest.


----------



## SteveHulk

20,000+ posts and still going strong... 

Even though we are talking about just ONE device - not eg how to build a complete audio system starting with an empty room. And we have a pretty low percentage of the worst trolls and spammers.

I just love this thread 🤗


----------



## Reactcore

Somatic said:


> Is there any optical cable that plays 24/196 on the Dave? What optical cables are people using? I never listen to DSD etc. Just Streaming services and some flac files.


I have good experience with Audioquest Forest.. its a entry level cable. its about neat fit of the plug


----------



## MvRBE10

Yes the aq carbon i had lone was the other one that worked


----------



## jcn3

Somatic said:


> Is there any optical cable that plays 24/196 on the Dave? What optical cables are people using? I never listen to DSD etc. Just Streaming services and some flac files.



i use one from sys concept -- works great up to 24/192 and dsd64:  https://www.sysconcept.ca/product_info.php?products_id=364


----------



## Somatic

jcn3 said:


> i use one from sys concept -- works great up to 24/192 and dsd64:  https://www.sysconcept.ca/product_info.php?products_id=364


Thanks. And this is on the Dave specifically? I'll order if so.


----------



## 801evan

Lifatec has better linearity and blacks over sysconcept in all cases for me. Longer ones sound better too.


----------



## Somatic

801evan said:


> Lifatec has better linearity and blacks over sysconcept in all cases for me. Longer ones sound better too.


Premium Silflex Glass Cables with Optisilk™ Jacketing? Is this the one? Does it do 24/192 on the Dave? Thanks.


----------



## 801evan

Somatic said:


> Premium Silflex Glass Cables with Optisilk™ Jacketing? Is this the one? Does it do 24/192 on the Dave? Thanks.


There's only one type in the lifatec site. Just get the right ends. Does 192/24


----------



## jcn3

Somatic said:


> Thanks. And this is on the Dave specifically? I'll order if so.



yes, specifically on my dave.  same results on my qutest, too.  the cable is quite good, particularly for the price.


----------



## livebylake

Somatic said:


> Premium Silflex Glass Cables with Optisilk™ Jacketing? Is this the one? Does it do 24/192 on the Dave? Thanks


Checking the Dave spec, you will be surprised to know that it only supports up to 96K for Optical, while TT2 can do 192K with optical.


----------



## 801evan

livebylake said:


> Checking the Dave spec, you will be surprised to know that it only supports up to 96K for Optical, while TT2 can do 192K with optical.


Good catch. I was thinking of the QBD76 having that limit on a single toslink.  Reminds me why I didn't feel that bad missing trying out the HMS to Dave via optical.


----------



## alxw0w (Jun 9, 2022)

livebylake said:


> Checking the Dave spec, you will be surprised to know that it only supports up to 96K for Optical, while TT2 can do 192K with optical.


I had no problems feeding Dave with toslink and 192khz signal.


----------



## Somatic

jcn3 said:


> yes, specifically on my dave.  same results on my qutest, too.  the cable is quite good, particularly for the price.


Yeah I called into the company. He sounds very nice.


----------



## livebylake

Somatic said:


> Yeah I called into the company. He sounds very nice.


I am using this $8 one with great results to 192K on TT2.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DI89VOM?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

I also bought a Wireworld Supernova 7 optical cable to try, not expecting too much.


----------



## ra990

I can vouch for the lifatec toslink cable. Best optical cable I've used, not too expensive, and I just love the feel of it in my hand.


----------



## Somatic

ra990 said:


> I can vouch for the lifatec toslink cable. Best optical cable I've used, not too expensive, and I just love the feel of it in my hand.


Damn. Good to know. I ended up buying the Sys Concept instead. After reading about its advantages in lowering modal dispersion not sure if I buy it. Seems like having smaller cores would increase modal dispersion instead of lowering it. Spoke to a few Optical Engineers that I know and they agreed that glass would be the better bet. Hmm, maybe I can use this cable for my AV system and buy the Lifatec for the Dave.

So I assume Lifatec does 24/192 on the Dave, right @801evan ? Thanks.


----------



## MvRBE10

I had a lifatec between my scaler and streamer and it only went to 96, the orgiginal one went to 192. Did not try it on the dave but on the scaler i found the fitting was not good much room to wiggle. Did send it back was a 3ft


----------



## livebylake

MvRBE10 said:


> I had a lifatec between my scaler and streamer and it only went to 96, the orgiginal one went to 192. Did not try it on the dave but on the scaler i found the fitting was not good much room to wiggle. Did send it back was a 3ft


I also heard reports of Lifatec having problem going up to 192K. Seems you just need to try your luck in your environment, the source may also matter.


----------



## livebylake

livebylake said:


> I also heard reports of Lifatec having problem going up to 192K. Seems you just need to try your luck in your environment, the source may also matter.


For me, the stock optical cable from TT2 only goes to 96, but the $8 one I bought from Amazon goes to 192, my source is Auralic Aries.


----------



## MvRBE10

My source an aurender N10 also tried wireworld did 192 with some aiming and wiggeling also sold that one.. uou have to be lucky indeed i guess


----------



## Somatic

livebylake said:


> For me, the stock optical cable from TT2 only goes to 96, but the $8 one I bought from Amazon goes to 192, my source is Auralic Aries.


But from what I gather it is harder to get dave to accept 192 with optical than TT2 ... I think i got 192 working on TT2 with a cheaper optical as well .... oh well at least the one I just bought should work ..


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jun 9, 2022)

Somatic said:


> But from what I gather it is harder to get dave to accept 192 with optical than TT2 ... I think i got 192 working on TT2 with a cheaper optical as well .... oh well at least the one I just bought should work ..


No on the tt2 i also had to align the cable properly and if i touched my desk it could start to tick when it was 192 (blue) i think its a combination of fitment and the fiber has to be somewhat more inside the plug. For some reasong the one supplied with the sets i had two both worked ok do fit snug and tight and and never had issues. The fiber itsself is i think always ok


----------



## Somatic

SteveHulk said:


> The DAVE display is pretty awful. It is either ditchwater-dull or garish. The resolution of the text is poor - either a higher res display should have been used or a sans serif font used that would make the resolution shortcomings of the display less painfully apparent.
> 
> If you want the environment of a DAC circuit to be as electromagnetically quiet as possible I'm not sure that an lcd-type display is even a good idea anyway.
> 
> I actually like the design aesthetic of the TT2, in particular the porthole view of the interior. It is a sign of the justified confidence that Chord has in the quality of their product that they have no misgivings in putting its internals on view. Rather like a restaurant where the kitchen is visible from the dining area. I wish more cues had been taken from that for the DAVE.


Yes, wish Dave looks more similar to TT2 or had an updated OLED screen


----------



## 801evan

Somatic said:


> But from what I gather it is harder to get dave to accept 192 with optical than TT2 ... I think i got 192 working on TT2 with a cheaper optical as well .... oh well at least the one I just bought should work ..


My CDT can do up to 192 upsampling and as I recall  Dave did 192khz. Thing is, with a good chain, I have preferred 44.1khz on any dac. 192khz sounded artificial. Andddd....it was 192/16. To make matters confusing I've been trying too many DACs and the Soekris and ifi DACs didn't like 96khz and 176khz. But Hugo 2 was fine on all modes. Whether it be sysconcept or lifatec so it wasn't a cable thing.

If I wasn't using the CDT, i would be using the src dx or topping d10s, I would be using optical on the topping d10s and was mainly listening to mqa so I never got over 96khz.


----------



## Somatic

So direct Dave connection is the best for transparency ... but if one needs to add an amp for Susvara. What are some of the most transparent AMPs for the Dave?


----------



## sm60

801evan said:


> Good catch. I was thinking of the QBD76 having that limit on a single toslink.  Reminds me why I didn't feel that bad missing trying out the HMS to Dave via optical.


With all this talk of 96khz and 192khz etc., it might be worth noting the vast amount of recordings in existence (like 99.999%) have negligible content above 15khz or so. If you have access to a tool like Audacity, download a few high resolution files in flac and do an FFT to plot their spectral content. You’ll find usually very little  above 15 kHz. In a concert hall you hear even less as high frequencies get absorbed by the air far more quickly than low frequencies. LPs strangely enough have high res content but it’s mostly noise. Also worth noting that comparing 16 bit vs 24 bit files, the bottom 8 bits are almost entirely noise and compress very poorly. 96dB down it’s mostly crud. 24 bits down, you’re talking thermal noise. Physicists building LIGO detectors to measure galaxies colliding billions of light years away need ultra high precision converters that often need to be cooled to near absolute zero. Hey, that’s an idea. Maybe someone can introduce a DAC that needs cryogenic cooling near absolute zero. 😀


----------



## 801evan

sm60 said:


> With all this talk of 96khz and 192khz etc., it might be worth noting the vast amount of recordings in existence (like 99.999%) have negligible content above 15khz or so. If you have access to a tool like Audacity, download a few high resolution files in flac and do an FFT to plot their spectral content. You’ll find usually very little  above 15 kHz. In a concert hall you hear even less as high frequencies get absorbed by the air far more quickly than low frequencies. LPs strangely enough have high res content but it’s mostly noise. Also worth noting that comparing 16 bit vs 24 bit files, the bottom 8 bits are almost entirely noise and compress very poorly. 96dB down it’s mostly crud. 24 bits down, you’re talking thermal noise. Physicists building LIGO detectors to measure galaxies colliding billions of light years away need ultra high precision converters that often need to be cooled to near absolute zero. Hey, that’s an idea. Maybe someone can introduce a DAC that needs cryogenic cooling near absolute zero. 😀


Yea. That's why I just stick to CDT and MQA. Hi-Res doesn't sound as good and HQplayer and PGGB is worse.


----------



## Somatic

Ok, tomorrow I will get to hear the Dave for the first time. I truly wonder how much better it is than TT2. I’m excited  to see what’s real vs exaggerated.


----------



## Somatic

seaice said:


> I have never tried LCD-5 with Dave, so I can not comment about this. (I tried some Audeze models in the past, but not from Dave and never to my satisfaction.)
> 
> Actually, M-Scaler>TT2>Sus is really the end for me and I am not motivated to try anything new at all.
> Before buying TT2 last year, I had lived a long time with M-Scaler>Dave>Suvara directly or with different amps, but after buying TT2, everything is finally resolved for me. My hunt is over.
> ...


Are you using rear xlr with Susvara?


----------



## nwavesailor

You may like the sound of the Dave from the first note compared to your TT2 @Somatic.
 It took me a few days to appreciate the added detail and clarity I found with the Dave. I think coming from a TT2 I was used to a bit warmer sound. Now I don't think I'd want to go back to the TT2. The TT2 and Dave were also with a M scaler.


----------



## Reactcore

Somatic said:


> Ok, tomorrow I will get to hear the Dave for the first time. I truly wonder how much better it is than TT2. I’m excited  to see what’s real vs exaggerated.


And get no sleep in the coming nights.. glued on your music😂


----------



## Triode User

Somatic said:


> Yes, wish Dave looks more similar to TT2 or had an updated OLED screen


The Dave screen is wayyy down on my list of prioritIes. I have it set to auto turn off the screen and rarely look at the screen. It is possible that a more sophisticated screen may generate noise or rob some of the Dave processing capability. Mind you, my Dave is hidden from view anyway during normal listening. This is not by design, there just happens to be a piece of furniture between Dave and me!


----------



## Somatic

How’s the overall reliability on older Dave’s?still going strong?


----------



## ecwl

Somatic said:


> How’s the overall reliability on older Dave’s?still going strong?


I bought it when it was first released. I would say it's basically left on all the time since then (late 2015). Still working great and still sound fantastic.


----------



## Triode User

Somatic said:


> How’s the overall reliability on older Dave’s?still going strong?





ecwl said:


> I bought it when it was first released. I would say it's basically left on all the time since then (late 2015). Still working great and still sound fantastic.



Similar here, I have a Dave from about the same time and it has been fully powered (not in standby) since new apart from the odd day here or there. I have compared it to a year old Dave. They sound identical and I would challenge anyone to tell them apart.


----------



## seaice (Jun 10, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Are you using rear xlr with Susvara?


No, just the standard 6,3mm headphone jack on TT2.


----------



## saudio7

Somatic said:


> How’s the overall reliability on older Dave’s?still going strong?


Same for me, like new after 6 years.


----------



## ZappaMan

Have moved the furniture to get my speakers wider, about 2.5 meters, just great sound stage coming through.


----------



## Somatic

Regarding Dave and transparency, if one adds a good amp to the Dave how much transparency does it lose. Does a Dave with external amp still sound more transparent than a TT2 connected directly?


----------



## Triode User

Somatic said:


> Regarding Dave and transparency, if one adds a good amp to the Dave how much transparency does it lose. Does a Dave with external amp still sound more transparent than a TT2 connected directly?


In my opinion, yes. But I am using speakers. Anyway, the Dave transparency is miles better than TT2 so there is a fair bit to play with before Dave plus a power amp is worse than TT2 solo but it obviously depends a lot on the amp used. 

As always though, one must try for one’s self to know for sure.


----------



## DJJEZ

Chord has increased prices again of TT2 and DAVE

New prices are

TT2 - £4750/$6725
DAVE - £10,000/$14,000


----------



## Somatic

DJJEZ said:


> Chord has increased prices again of TT2 and DAVE
> 
> New prices are
> 
> ...


Such weak crap. Every few months.


----------



## sm60

Somatic said:


> Yes, wish Dave looks more similar to TT2 or had an updated OLED screen


Ugh, no, no, no. No colored marbles for me, please. I avoid all Chord products with cheapie plastic colored marbles. You’d think for the price they charge for these things, they could include a decent user interface with discrete OLED displays. Linn has this all over Chord, IMHO.


----------



## iDesign

sm60 said:


> Ugh, no, no, no. No colored marbles for me, please. I avoid all Chord products with cheapie plastic colored marbles. You’d think for the price they charge for these things, they could include a decent user interface with discrete OLED displays. Linn has this all over Chord, IMHO.


Completely agree. Chord needs to hire an industrial designer and also work on their graphic and packaging design. There is no shortage of students coming out of the Royal College of Art & Design they could hire.


----------



## sm60

DJJEZ said:


> Chord has increased prices again of TT2 and DAVE
> 
> New prices are
> 
> ...


Hardly surprising. Inflation is now running close to 9%, a two decade high. Sadly, the worst is yet to come. The cascading effects of the pandemic, the war in Ukraine, supply chain malfunctions, climate change effects etc. will cause economic havoc in the coming years. If the war in Ukraine spills over to Nato countries, that will send most Western economies into a free fall. Let’s pray that does not happen! The real interesting question is how long production can continue given supply chain issues.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 11, 2022)

DJJEZ said:


> Chord has increased prices again of TT2 and DAVE
> 
> New prices are
> 
> ...


At this rate we will be able to sell our used DAVEs for more than we paid for them, rather like the anomalies in the used car market created by the shortages and long lead times for new cars. 😂


----------



## Somatic

I can definitely hear a difference from the Dave and TT2. But it wasn’t a night and day difference. Bass texture and depth, soundstage all increases. Seems like the Dave has more emphasis on accentuating mids. Seems mid forward. It does have more layers than TT2. TT2 is flat in comparison. TT2 does seem more relaxing of a listen. I can imagine why some people might like TT2/HMS more. Overall it is good. I’ll probably keep. Piano sounded amazing. 

Guess I was expecting more of it being injected in my veins lol. 

Weird thing I noticed. I used to EQ the LCD5 a bit but straight from the Dave zero EQ.


----------



## ZappaMan

Somatic said:


> I can definitely hear a difference from the Dave and TT2. But it wasn’t a night and day difference. Bass texture and depth, soundstage all increases. Seems like the Dave has more emphasis on accentuating mids. Seems mid forward. It does have more layers than TT2. TT2 is flat in comparison. TT2 does seem more relaxing of a listen. I can imagine why some people might like TT2/HMS more. Overall it is good. I’ll probably keep. Piano sounded amazing.
> 
> Guess I was expecting more of it being injected in my veins lol.
> 
> Weird thing I noticed. I used to EQ the LCD5 a bit but straight from the Dave zero EQ.


I think it’s a journey of discovery, the tangible improvements will keep revealing themselves. It lifts a big veil on texture, which is a very exciting aspect of listening. 
To step back and remove that appreciation of the improved texture would be self defeating. 
If a song had great synth keyboard with tt2, with Dave, it’s an amazing synth keyboard, and the amazement is technically amazing. 
that’s the electrifying aspect for me.


----------



## alxw0w

Somatic said:


> I can definitely hear a difference from the Dave and TT2. But it wasn’t a night and day difference. Bass texture and depth, soundstage all increases. Seems like the Dave has more emphasis on accentuating mids. Seems mid forward. It does have more layers than TT2. TT2 is flat in comparison. TT2 does seem more relaxing of a listen. I can imagine why some people might like TT2/HMS more. Overall it is good. I’ll probably keep. Piano sounded amazing.
> 
> Guess I was expecting more of it being injected in my veins lol.
> 
> Weird thing I noticed. I used to EQ the LCD5 a bit but straight from the Dave zero EQ.


Listen to Dave for some time like week or two. Then switch again to tt2.
You will be surprised


----------



## Triode User

alxw0w said:


> Listen to Dave for some time like week or two. Then switch again to tt2.
> You will be surprised


Good advice. I found TT2 quite muddled/muddy in the bass and lower mids after prolonged Dave listening.


----------



## bluecar

Somatic said:


> Regarding Dave and transparency, if one adds a good amp to the Dave how much transparency does it lose. Does a Dave with external amp still sound more transparent than a TT2 connected directly?


I tired this for a while, before my DAVE went in PX.....short answer is not much, not really, and yes, it sounded better for me. I used both an HPA4 and a Nimbus US5 with it, connected with chord Signature XLR. The HPA was a 'pass through' experience (unsurprising, given the HPA's design) - if there was any loss of micro-detail, I couldnt hear it. What it did do, however, was light up the headphones (LCD3, Utopia, Empyrean) for my preferences - more dynamics, wider staging - nicer to listen to - perhaps not 'better' than the DAVE HP output, but more engaging to listen to. The US 5 was a massive step up in SQ - better timbre, more dynamics, better imaging/staging, especially with the Focals. then again, you'd expect that from a £5000 amp. 

The Headphone output on the DAVE is very good - clean, clear, detailed and well-imaged. But, if it doesnt suit your headphones, or you prefer balanced, it;s worth trying other amps - for me, if there was anything being lost, it was more than made up for with the the other gains. 

I did find that the setup scaled well with good interconnects - I tried many different cables from TQ, AQ, Nordost and Chord co before settling on the Signatures. I tried the Chord Music XLR, and it was astonishing, but as it cost more than the HPA, that was never going to happen  In both cases, (HPA and NImbus) the Chord wires sounded better (to me) than the others. TQ was dissapointing. with AQ and Nordost, I was looking at 2x the ££ to get the same effect as cheaper Chord. Eventually settled on the Signature as a good balance between SQ and ££.

I've demoed the TT2 in the past - it;s a fine unit. But for me, DAVE + Amp delivered much broader muscial enjoyment, albeit at some cost......


----------



## alxw0w (Jun 11, 2022)

What's also surprising is the fact that crossfeed on Dave has much more profound effect.

I'm not sure exactly why this is happening.
On TT2 and also hugo2 crossfeed wasn't changing that much. Actually I preffered it to be off everything was squashed together and the depth was not as clear as it is on Dave.

With Dave crossfeed is huge. I mean the image really is more upfront you. The depth and instrument placement is completely changed - of course assuming that recording has it.
With classical music I'm like 99% of the time using crossfeed 3.

My guess why this is happening is that:
- high frequencies are more extended on Dave than TT2/hugo2
- better clarity and overall small nuances are clearer on Dave especially in higher frequencies
- as we know a lot of information about space and placement of sounds are contained in high frequencies

As far as I know implementation of xfeed is exactly the same on every chord dac.
So it's really interesting to see how much of a difference you can still hear. In my opinion that's the reason why dark sounding DACs have problems with overall soundstage.

It would be interesting to hear @Rob Watts view on why there is so much difference in crossfeed between his DACs - at least to my ears.


----------



## zen87192

A simple, but brilliant quality, Singxer SA-1 Headphone Amp with the DAVE is all that is needed on my side. The SA-1 is very clean and does not colour, veil or muddy the sound. In recent tests the SA-1 came out with extremely good results. Feed the DAVE through this and things become even fuller and very musical. A 'cheap' way of enhancing the DAVE if you require more power and 'thump'. Everything seems to be 'enhanced'. SA-1 is great to drive the DAVE with LCD-5's which I feel doesn't require EQ thereafter. You can 'play' about with the sound, if you so wish, by using various and personally chosen RCA Interconnects and 'Bob's your Uncle' ! 🎧


----------



## Somatic

Thanks for the tips on appreciating the Dave. I heard the difference and will keep the Dave. Instruments are more convincing, more layers, bass is all encompassing, micro details increase and soundstage width increases. Just part of me thinks it emphasizes the mids more making less neutral? I am now thinking of selling the TT2 and getting an mscaler with Wave cables.

Can someone add again what the Macaler brings to the table using the Dave?


----------



## Glossator

Somatic said:


> Thanks for the tips on appreciating the Dave. I heard the difference and will keep the Dave. Instruments are more convincing, more layers, bass is all encompassing, micro details increase and soundstage width increases. Just part of me thinks it emphasizes the mids more making less neutral? I am now thinking of selling the TT2 and getting an mscaler with Wave cables.
> 
> Can someone add again what the Macaler brings to the table using the Dave?


Greater musicality:  the sounds just flows like water ... and with that comes greater emotional involvement.


----------



## Somatic

GryphonGuy said:


> Once you add an SRC-DX USB to DX adapter (USB to dual BNC), you'll wonder why you ever listened to the USB input. Using the same USB cable and port on the PC, the difference for me is night and day, even on the 4FS material (single BNC mode) but the 16FS material (Dual BNC) is mind-blowingly great. When DAVE switches to the 705.6kHz DX mode, I swear there is magic that happens inside DAVE (I speak romantically here).
> 
> Just for reference, my DAVE, in comparison between straight USB input and DX via SRC-DX adapter, the USB sounds fuzzy, loosely defined, and slightly edgy in the top end relatively speaking. The SRC-DX on the otherhand has a blacker background, bigger soundstage, more focused soundstage, pristinely pure but natural sounding top-end. The DAVE's ability to reproduce accurate sounding timbre of instruments is enhanced because the low-level signals in the top-end are where finesse happens for me. A tiny triangle hit that is barely audible but very clear against a "black" background of silence can thrill me.
> 
> ...


What about optical? Heard this is a great option with Dave. Are we not messing to it because it can’t play high sample rates?

Wondering if I should get a SRC DX with HQPlayer now that it supports streaming platforms vs getting an MScaler/Wave Cables.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Somatic said:


> Regarding Dave and transparency, if one adds a good amp to the Dave how much transparency does it lose.



Depends on the amp. With a high quality, transparent amp not much, if at all audibly. One thing to note is that depending on the headphones.. especially if they're harder to drive, you often get an improvement in fullness overall + increased bass performance. In comparison, in these cases the Dave alone can sound a bit leaner overall, which many associate with greater transparency or clarity, which I wouldn't say is accurate (just imo). This is especially true regarding bass, because with lower bass output and fullness, the mids and highs are accentuated. 

Now with a colored amp behind it, it absolutely loses some neutrality and transparency, so you'd want to avoid warmer, intentionally lusher amps if transparency is your absolute main goal. 

I would just thoroughly test it out yourself. For me, I did so extensively and landed on always using the Dave direct on really efficient headphones (*unless* they are naturally lean/bright themselves), and absolutely always using an amp for any harder to drive headphones. That has produced the best sound for me. 



Somatic said:


> Can someone add again what the Mscaler brings to the table using the Dave?



For me, the mscaler added a really great sense of spaciousness, which increased perceived level of detail and accentuated the imaging. It was a really nice and welcomed change for me. (I do get how some perceive these changes as the sound becoming more digital, however). I would say the mscaler just crosses the line of being a must have for me. A bit pricey for what it is and the changes are indeed a bit subtle, but I have no intention at all to let mine go.


----------



## Ards (Jun 11, 2022)

After a week of delay, thanks to the UK Queen's Jubilee double bank-holiday and then FedEx's ridiculously manual duties payment system, I finally received my Farad3 upgrade kit.  I installed this yesterday and left it to warm up overnight, then spent this afternoon critically evaluating using a selection of tracks that I know extremely well from years of repeated listening.

Three hours later, and my face aching from the three hour grin, my conclusion is this:

You haven't heard what DAVE is fully capable of until you've upgraded the power supply...

Everything is just better.  SO MUCH BETTER!

Transients and their timing is significantly improved.  Things like Oldfield's Tubular Bell clang, or Maxwell's Silver Hammer strikes, or just simple rim hits, now have a speed of impact that can shock and delight.  Previously you heard the sound but never believed the instrument is in front of you.   Now you do.

Vocalists now have a physical presence, whereas previously there was just a ghost standing there.  Voices are much better defined in space too.  In fact everything is better defined.  It's like a blurriness has been removed and so everything snaps in to focus.

Bass is hugely improved.  Double bass, for example, which previously sounded like a double bass, now REALLY sounds and feels like a double bass.  Notes are clear, well defined, perfectly controlled. etc.  You can literally see these instruments.

Depth, and indeed, the entire soundstage is improved.   It's now holographic 3D, whereas before it was a little flat and layered.

Dynamics are hugely improved.  Drum hits sound real, fast and impactful and combined with the other improvements above you fully believe there's a drum kit banging away in the room with you.

Put simply, upgrading the power supply of the DAVE turns it into a DAVE+

The Farad3 upgrade gets an unequivocal recommendation.

Haven't heard the Sean Jacobs, so cannot offer any comparison.


----------



## MvRBE10

Ards said:


> After a week of delay, thanks to the UK Queen's Jubilee double bank-holiday and then FedEx's ridiculously manual duties payment system, I finally received my Farad3 upgrade kit.  I installed this yesterday and left it to warm up overnight, then spent this afternoon critically evaluating using a selection of tracks that I know extremely well from years of repeated listening.
> 
> Three hours later, and my face aching from the three hour grin, my conclusion is this:
> 
> ...


And your fixed inlets are on there way😁


----------



## SteveHulk

Ards said:


> After a week of delay, thanks to the UK Queen's Jubilee double bank-holiday and then FedEx's ridiculously manual duties payment system, I finally received my Farad3 upgrade kit.  I installed this yesterday and left it to warm up overnight, then spent this afternoon critically evaluating using a selection of tracks that I know extremely well from years of repeated listening.
> 
> Three hours later, and my face aching from the three hour grin, my conclusion is this:
> 
> ...


Oh God now I'm going to go crazy waiting for mine 🤯


----------



## MvRBE10

Ards said:


> After a week of delay, thanks to the UK Queen's Jubilee double bank-holiday and then FedEx's ridiculously manual duties payment system, I finally received my Farad3 upgrade kit.  I installed this yesterday and left it to warm up overnight, then spent this afternoon critically evaluating using a selection of tracks that I know extremely well from years of repeated listening.
> 
> Three hours later, and my face aching from the three hour grin, my conclusion is this:
> 
> ...


You exactly describe what i reviewed few pages back. Im not a nutcase afterall 😁.


----------



## alxw0w

Ards said:


> After a week of delay, thanks to the UK Queen's Jubilee double bank-holiday and then FedEx's ridiculously manual duties payment system, I finally received my Farad3 upgrade kit.  I installed this yesterday and left it to warm up overnight, then spent this afternoon critically evaluating using a selection of tracks that I know extremely well from years of repeated listening.
> 
> Three hours later, and my face aching from the three hour grin, my conclusion is this:
> 
> ...


Oh boy oh boy, please don't do this to me 🥺


----------



## Somatic

Ards said:


> After a week of delay, thanks to the UK Queen's Jubilee double bank-holiday and then FedEx's ridiculously manual duties payment system, I finally received my Farad3 upgrade kit.  I installed this yesterday and left it to warm up overnight, then spent this afternoon critically evaluating using a selection of tracks that I know extremely well from years of repeated listening.
> 
> Three hours later, and my face aching from the three hour grin, my conclusion is this:
> 
> ...


Would you recommend the Farad3 or Mscaler for a solo Dave? Which one gets more benefit? Thanks


----------



## Triode User

Somatic said:


> What about optical? Heard this is a great option with Dave. Are we not messing to it because it can’t play high sample rates?
> 
> Wondering if I should get a SRC DX with HQPlayer now that it supports streaming platforms vs getting an MScaler/Wave Cables.


I would say just listen to your Dave for a while, weeks or months. Get to know and love it and perhaps try HQP with its time limited trial and also borrow an Mscaler from your dealer. You might even be able to borrow an SRC.DX as well.

Try optical into your Dave and try other inputs. I much prefer bnc to optical input into Dave (using the SRC.DX to convert the usb output from my streamer) but I know that many say they prefer the optical. In my view it is a YMMV thing so you need to play for a while and many of these things are best tried for weeks at a time rather than trying to make snap judgements going back and forth.

Also, do not underestimate the impact of your player software on the sound quality. Try a few different ones if it is possible. I have settled on Squeeze server and Squeezelite player having tried Roon and a few others


----------



## Triode User

Ards said:


> Haven't heard the Sean Jacobs, so cannot offer any comparison.





SteveHulk said:


> Oh God now I'm going to go crazy waiting for mine


Hey guys, which of you is closer to me? (I am Leicestershire) If you offer coffee I’m very happy to get in my car and bring my Sean Jacobs version.


----------



## MvRBE10

Somatic said:


> Would you recommend the Farad3 or Mscaler for a solo Dave? Which one gets more benefit? Thanks


I removed my scaler and enjoy the dave more without but could be different for someone else


----------



## DJJEZ

MvRBE10 said:


> I removed my scaler and enjoy the dave more without but could be different for someone else


Opposite for me. I cant listen to dave without mscaler


----------



## SteveHulk

Triode User said:


> Hey guys, which of you is closer to me? (I am Leicestershire) If you offer coffee I’m very happy to get in my car and bring my Sean Jacobs version.


I'm in North Central London...


----------



## sm60

DJJEZ said:


> Opposite for me. I cant listen to dave without mscaler


My Blu2 transport has the M-Scaler built in, so I always listen to CDs with the M-Scaler included. I don’t listen to anything else but redbook CDs with my Blu2/Dave. I find the Blu2/Dave very satisfying for redbook playback. It’s not state of the art by any means, the hugely more massive CEC TL0 two box belt drive transport that weighs 5x as much as the Blu2/Dave combined is a fairly big step up. But the Blu2/Dave is very very good and musical at its price level.

For streaming, I generally prefer my Lampi Pacific. It’s got a built in Roon server and a LAN input. It also decodes far more formats than the Dave (e.g., DSD 512).


----------



## MvRBE10

DJJEZ said:


> Opposite for me. I cant listen to dave without mscaler


I dont listen headphones i think scaler works maybe better with that setup. Its all system depended i figure


----------



## Triode User

DJJEZ said:


> Opposite for me. I cant listen to dave without mscaler


I wouldn’t say I can’t listen without MScaler but I know what @MvRBE10  means about the joys of Dave solo with an upgraded power supply. On the other hand even with the SJ power supply I do much prefer Dave with the Mscaler.


----------



## Slim1970

Ards said:


> After a week of delay, thanks to the UK Queen's Jubilee double bank-holiday and then FedEx's ridiculously manual duties payment system, I finally received my Farad3 upgrade kit.  I installed this yesterday and left it to warm up overnight, then spent this afternoon critically evaluating using a selection of tracks that I know extremely well from years of repeated listening.
> 
> Three hours later, and my face aching from the three hour grin, my conclusion is this:
> 
> ...


Does the Farad Super3 power supplies for the DAVE come with power cords included?


----------



## sm60

Somatic said:


> Would you recommend the Farad3 or Mscaler for a solo Dave? Which one gets more benefit? Thanks


It’s all a question of marginal improvements at the expense of other ways of getting more bang for your buck. I’m firmly of the opinion that the biggest limitation in hifi today are loudspeakers. They simply suck. Distortion is ridiculously high even if you pay a lot of money. Take a look at the distortion graphs below of one of the world’s most expensive and highly regarded professional loudspeaker, the JBL M2, which costs $20+ grand. These come with a pair of customized Crown amplifiers with built in active crossover for the M2. These can be driven to a bone rattling 130dB or so, enough to make you deaf soon. Yet even at 96dB, you get barely 10 bits of linearity in the midrange and even less in the bass. Now, the Dave has at least 20 bits of linearity from 20 Hz to 20 KHz, so 60 dB or a million times less distortion than this loudspeaker. So, if you hear an improvement in the sound, it’s not coming from lower distortion. Where’s it coming from? Good question to ponder about. I prefer electrostatics, since I don’t care for playing back at 130 dB, and 85-90dB is plenty loud for me. But my Quads measure about 20-30 dB lower in distortion than the M2. 

It’s all a trade off. Sometimes you want higher distortion, particularly if it’s the nice second harmonic tube kind to sweeten the sound.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jun 11, 2022)

Slim1970 said:


> Does the Farad Super3 power supplies for the DAVE come with power cords included?


No but you can order them from farad or use your own. Check out his new website its all there:

https://www.faradpowersupplies.com/

There also the new super10 power supply that seems to be mental. That can also be used with the dave monitor board. The super10 true negative version is also already designed and prob in a while ready for first testing. Maybe maybe i can try a set in the future. Alot of new technology and all his knowledge is put into this new lps.

Alot of farad systems are on the way to new owners last week end next week. There responses will explain what the gains are just as the sj dc4 are doing a good job. My only goal was to get this improvement to people and myself for somewhat less money in this case 1/3. And to design a rock solid safe solution that will never fail the dave and is super easy to build into the dave. The ones that have the product upcoming weeks in there hands will see how professional it looks and feels it truely matches the dave concept. This should be standard from factory. Maybe in choral case but thats not so difficult seen from there perspective.

The future will tell us how close these systems are but i am convinced they are not far apart reading my findings compared to the ones that use the sj or for that matter other power supplies users.

The dave story continues 😁


----------



## Somatic

I plan to listen to solo Dave for 1 + month before upgrading but should I go for Mscaler or Farad3 should cost about the same. Or wait for MScalerX?


----------



## MvRBE10

I would say having them both first, lps (get your source ok) clean power is start of everything. And build from there. I walked the complete path and this is with my knowledge from now.


----------



## Triode User (Jun 12, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> The future will tell us how close these systems are but i am convinced they are not far apart reading my findings compared to the ones that use the sj or for that matter other power supplies users.


It will indeed be interesting to hear them both together. My only experience relates to my Qutest which I had chosen to power with a Farad Super3 after trying other manufacturer options and then I was able to try it with a DC4. It was the classic night and day difference in sound quality between the two power supplies and I admit I was rather stunned in the huge difference in sound going from the Super3 to the DC4. Of course this was just with the Sean Jacobs DC4 and not the later ARC6 but based on what I heard even the DC4 was not in the same ball park as opposed to being ‘not far apart’. Of course neither is the price the same and it must be welcome to have a lower price option for the Dave even if the sound quality is not the same.


----------



## zen87192 (Jun 11, 2022)

Ards said:


> After a week of delay, thanks to the UK Queen's Jubilee double bank-holiday and then FedEx's ridiculously manual duties payment system, I finally received my Farad3 upgrade kit.  I installed this yesterday and left it to warm up overnight, then spent this afternoon critically evaluating using a selection of tracks that I know extremely well from years of repeated listening.
> 
> Three hours later, and my face aching from the three hour grin, my conclusion is this:
> 
> ...



My Farad Super3 Dave Upgrade should be delivered sometime next week. Really looking forward to installing it now and listening to the difference.
Ards... you got me 'pumped' now! This I'm excited about. Many thanks @Ards for your initial review of the Farad Super3 Upgrade.


----------



## ZappaMan (Jun 11, 2022)

Hd800s sound really good with Dave. The orb/Neil young …..


----------



## Rob Watts

alxw0w said:


> What's also surprising is the fact that crossfeed on Dave has much more profound effect.
> 
> I'm not sure exactly why this is happening.
> On TT2 and also hugo2 crossfeed wasn't changing that much. Actually I preffered it to be off everything was squashed together and the depth was not as clear as it is on Dave.
> ...



When developing Hugo 2 I took a prototype onto a flight, and was listening to a new Hildegard of Bingen track, with bells being played. But I initially thought the bells were from the aircraft, not the recording - it was a surprising experience. With cross-feed off, it was not convincing at all, back to sound inside your head. With the original Hugo, I never got that out of head experience from cross-feed. Hugo 2 was a big improvement in depth and transparency - so better small signal accuracy equates to cross-feed being much more effective - and Dave is a big improvement in small signal accuracy and transparency over TT2.


----------



## Ards

Somatic said:


> Would you recommend the Farad3 or Mscaler for a solo Dave? Which one gets more benefit? Thanks


That's a tough one.   I think the power upgrade for the DAVE has made the biggest improvement overall, but the MScaler was a necessary improvement to the DAVE as well.  Perhaps, without the MScaler, the DAVE power upgrade would be less pronounced because it's also highlighting the benefits of the MScaler...  

But if I were starting over, I think I'd go DAVE, then power supply, to build the foundation, then add MScaler and then a power supply for the MScaler.


----------



## Ards

Triode User said:


> Hey guys, which of you is closer to me? (I am Leicestershire) If you offer coffee I’m very happy to get in my car and bring my Sean Jacobs version.


I'm down in the South West, but cannot physically accommodate the DC4, so would be a wasted journey!!


----------



## Ards

Slim1970 said:


> Does the Farad Super3 power supplies for the DAVE come with power cords included?


No.  The requirement for three power sockets and three cords is the downside here with the Farad3 solution.  This can be difficult to accommodate and expensive to set up if you like to use high end cables.  For my purchase I picked up three of Farad's own power cords and will experiment later with my own cables to see if any further gains can be made.


----------



## Reactcore

Ards said:


> No.  The requirement for three power sockets and three cords is the downside here with the Farad3 solution.  This can be difficult to accommodate and expensive to set up if you like to use high end cables.  For my purchase I picked up three of Farad's own power cords and will experiment later with my own cables to see if any further gains can be made.



Ive seen @MvRBE10 terminated the 3 Farad AC cables into one plug. That saves you 2 sockets. But he also mentioned this wont be approved to sell in official market just cause of EU regulations about 16A fusing.


----------



## MvRBE10

So DIY and problem solved and much cheaper 😎


----------



## Reactcore

Lol ever since i got HMS & Dave, i'm hunting Redbook CD's to Rip myself.. i only want original 44/16 content as it just sound better compared to most remaster and MQA stuff


----------



## MvRBE10

Reactcore said:


> Lol ever since i got HMS & Dave, i'm hunting Redbook CD's to Rip myself.. i only want original 44/16 content as it just sound better compared to most remaster and MQA stuff


Try also some shirley horn ‘yesterday’ just downloaded her collection.


----------



## Slim1970

Ards said:


> No.  The requirement for three power sockets and three cords is the downside here with the Farad3 solution.  This can be difficult to accommodate and expensive to set up if you like to use high end cables.  For my purchase I picked up three of Farad's own power cords and will experiment later with my own cables to see if any further gains can be made.


Thanks for the response. I was reading on Farad's site and saw no mention of power cords being included and wanted to be sure. 

You bring up a great point with accomodations. I'll have to get a larger power conditioner to fit the 3 additional power cords. The improvements in sound seem to make the purchase a worthwhile investment.


----------



## Somatic

darkless said:


> I've been driving my Tannoy Canterbury GR speakers directly from the DAVE RCA outs for some time now. They are 8 Ohm nominal 5 Ohm minimal impedance. As long as you don't listen very loudly and/or do a lot of digital EQ (thus eating up the headroom), you'll be fine. I'm expecting a Benchmark AHB2 within a few weeks, so hopefully I won't lose much in terms of transparency while gaining more headroom.


Did you find this pairing good? Do you remember if you retained transparency?


----------



## Somatic

Thinking of buying the AHB2 again. This time pairing with Dave instead of TT2. Do I still use XLR interconnects to hook them up? Thanks.


----------



## 801evan

alxw0w said:


> What's also surprising is the fact that crossfeed on Dave has much more profound effect.
> 
> I'm not sure exactly why this is happening.
> On TT2 and also hugo2 crossfeed wasn't changing that much. Actually I preffered it to be off everything was squashed together and the depth was not as clear as it is on Dave.
> ...


There's a bit more space in-between in the mids and up and the Dave will be on the leaner side if the chain isn't optimized so crossfeed is more perceptible over tt2/Hugo 2.


----------



## Triode User

Somatic said:


> Thinking of buying the AHB2 again. This time pairing with Dave instead of TT2. Do I still use XLR interconnects to hook them up? Thanks.


In theory the RCA output from Dave is slightly better than XLR but in practice I use XLR from my Dave to my Pass Labs power amp because that is a fully configured balanced design, If you use the XLR output then I have found a cheap pro cable such as the Belden 8760 to be about as good as it gets.


----------



## Somatic

Anyone know the exact volume to volume match the TT2 and Dave? Doing comparisons, thanks.


----------



## sm60

Reactcore said:


> Lol ever since i got HMS & Dave, i'm hunting Redbook CD's to Rip myself.. i only want original 44/16 content as it just sound better compared to most remaster and MQA stuff


My advice: get a good redbook CD transport, e.g., the Blu2 or something like a CEC. It makes a world of difference. Yes, streaming is convenient if you rip it, but having ripped over 5000 CDs and SACDs, I haven’t found a rip that sounds as good as direct disc playback. I limit streaming to titles I don’t own on hard copy. There’s a very general theorem in information theory called the data processing inequality. Leaving the math aside, intuitively it says any computation on information can make things worse. Ripping involves compression, transmission, format conversion etc. Each such data processing step involves information loss. Yes, the theory talks of perfect copies. But reality is different. And then there’s the sheer robustness of optical storage that cannot be beat. I bought my first CD in 1984. Still plays back perfectly.  My hard drive in 1984 was a floppy disk drive. Good luck finding a way to use those anymore.


----------



## 801evan

sm60 said:


> My advice: get a good redbook CD transport, e.g., the Blu2 or something like a CEC. It makes a world of difference. Yes, streaming is convenient if you rip it, but having ripped over 5000 CDs and SACDs, I haven’t found a rip that sounds as good as direct disc playback. I limit streaming to titles I don’t own on hard copy. There’s a very general theorem in information theory called the data processing inequality. Leaving the math aside, intuitively it says any computation on information can make things worse. Ripping involves compression, transmission, format conversion etc. Each such data processing step involves information loss. Yes, the theory talks of perfect copies. But reality is different. And then there’s the sheer robustness of optical storage that cannot be beat. I bought my first CD in 1984. Still plays back perfectly.  My hard drive in 1984 was a floppy disk drive. Good luck finding a way to use those anymore.


That's about right. And as a test to validate, a good CDT hooked up straight to the Dave should sound better than having a HMS in-between.


----------



## BassicScience

sm60 said:


> My advice: get a good redbook CD transport, e.g., the Blu2 or something like a CEC. It makes a world of difference. Yes, streaming is convenient if you rip it, but having ripped over 5000 CDs and SACDs, I haven’t found a rip that sounds as good as direct disc playback. I limit streaming to titles I don’t own on hard copy. There’s a very general theorem in information theory called the data processing inequality. Leaving the math aside, intuitively it says any computation on information can make things worse. Ripping involves compression, transmission, format conversion etc. Each such data processing step involves information loss. Yes, the theory talks of perfect copies. But reality is different. And then there’s the sheer robustness of optical storage that cannot be beat. I bought my first CD in 1984. Still plays back perfectly.  My hard drive in 1984 was a floppy disk drive. Good luck finding a way to use those anymore.


Sorry, but ripping does not unconditionally "involve information loss". As such, playing CDs doesn't necessarily sound any better or worse than streaming a lossless file (identical data) to the same DAC.


----------



## 801evan

BassicScience said:


> Sorry, but ripping does not unconditionally "involve information loss". As such, playing CDs doesn't necessarily sound any better or worse than streaming a lossless file (identical data) to the same DAC.


Nope....I ripped a CD 20 different ways...just different power supplies and such and all 20 sounds different despite being bit perfect. I've then burned them back to cd and all 20 sounds different again. The lesser quality ones have a ringing in the sound. All this is bit perfect and burned on a CD, but yet, sounds different.

Just ripping on different speeds makes a SQ difference.


----------



## nwavesailor (Jun 13, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Anyone know the exact volume to volume match the TT2 and Dave? Doing comparisons, thanks.


The Dave is new to you. You know what the TT2 sounds like, so consider just giving the Dave some time. You can always go back to the TT2.
 I am guilty of obsessing and doing A / B comparisons between components or even more so tubes! You want answers to a lot of qustions on the various forums. All you questions will not be answered and a lot of it is opinion.

You really need to trust YOUR ears!


----------



## Ards

sm60 said:


> I haven’t found a rip that sounds as good as direct disc playback. I limit streaming to titles I don’t own on hard copy.


This is a great sanity check for a streaming setup - how does the streamed sound compare to a local non-streamed source?  For the longest time, in my system, the local source always won by some margin, and this drove my search for improvements to my streaming setup, but I'm now at the stage where streamed digital sounds identical to the same source CD, or indeed better, thanks to the work of the HMS.  This has been through a combination of upgrades, but most significantly going to optical ethernet and, if using Roon, switching to Roon-supported LMS as the player.  The final bit of the puzzle was vinyl in my system - I rip all my vinyl at 192/24 and streaming these files always sounded worse, but with the recent DAVE power upgrade I feel that it's now almost identical sounding to playing the vinyl.

Streaming seems fraught with issues, mostly related to electrical noise pollution, but it seems that these issues can ultimately be tamed.


----------



## Triode User (Jun 13, 2022)

sm60 said:


> I haven’t found a rip that sounds as good as direct disc playback.


What you don’t mention is other factors that can affect the sound of a ripped file during playback such as the type of disk where it is stored, the device used as the server, the device used as the player, the software used on the server, the software used on the player, not to mention the power supplies used for these devices (the most recent iteration of the Innuos Statement only features an upgraded power supply) etc etc. Perhaps the problem you are having getting a locally stored ripped file to sound as good as a cd is related to these? Rob always used to suggest comparing the sound of a cd on the Blu Mk2 to ripped file playback in order to fine tune the ripped file playback. By doing that I was able to get them to be the same and now I might even venture to suggest that my ripped file playback is slightly better than a cd on the Blu 2.

I have only mentioned locally stored ripped files. Streamed music over the internet is more difficult to achieve good playback sound quality but I am getting there with the aid of a PhoenixNET and some other optimising.


----------



## Triode User

Ards said:


> This has been through a combination of upgrades, but most significantly going to optical ethernet and, if using Roon, switching to Roon-supported LMS as the player.


Optical ethernet was not sufficient in my case. I do use optical ethernet but a PhoenixNET between my final switch and streamer has helped enormously. 

Yes Squeezelite player with Roon does help but even more so is abandoning Roon altogether! I use Squeeze (LMS) server with Squeezelite as the player.


----------



## alxw0w (Jun 13, 2022)

Definitely one of the steps that you should do when trying to get maximum SQ from your streaming playback is not using Roon.

Just one simple change to LMS and it's a really big step in SQ.


----------



## 801evan

Triode User said:


> Yes Squeezelite player with Roon does help but even more so is abandoning Roon altogether! I use Squeeze (LMS) server with Squeezelite as the player.


Truthspeak.... That's why when I read impressions, especially on fb audio groups, I see what their chain is and if it's Roon....I know...😉 If it's Roon and Qobuz...I know even more. 😂


----------



## Ards (Jun 13, 2022)

Triode User said:


> Optical ethernet was not sufficient in my case. I do use optical ethernet but a PhoenixNET between my final switch and streamer has helped enormously.


Yes, optical is only part of the solution.  A high-end switch seems mandatory due to noise issue with standard switches.  I wish the PhoenixNET supported optical, as I'd very likely use one myself thanks to the Sean Jacobs internal power.  My current route is SoTM switch->optical->Melco S100->optical->OpticalRendu (in LMS mode) - so my endpoint is optically isolated, which then sends USB onwards to the PhoenixUSB.   Both the Melco and OpticalRendu are powered by Farad3.  The SoTM switch isolates the Melco from the network, so that it can do it's job as cleanly as possible.  I used to have multiple SoTM switches, which worked well with copper ethernet, but once I switched to optical, the extra switches were no longer needed.


----------



## 801evan

Ards said:


> Yes, optical is only part of the solution.  A high-end switch seems mandatory due to noise issue with standard switches.  I wish the PhoenixNET supported optical, as I'd very likely use one myself thanks to the Sean Jacobs internal power.  My current route is SoTM switch->optical->Melco S100->optical->OpticalRendu - so my endpoint is optically isolated, which then sends USB onwards to the PhoenixUSB.   Both the Melco and OpticalRendu are powered by Farad3.  The SoTM switch isolates the Melco from the network, so that it can do it's job as cleanly as possible.  I used to have multiple SoTM switches, which worked well with copper ethernet, but once I switched to optical, the extra switches were no longer needed.


I've tried the switches route and it gets dicey. It's not different from my experiment where 3 to 4 USB hubs was improving the sound and I went up to 11 isilencers improving the sound. 😂

Only one setup rivals my cdt + ocxo with multi stage lt3045 and custom psu, and that's the zen stream connected to phone hotspot streaming tidal via mconnect. I took a break up using it but at the time tidal connect couldn't be used with that method. I got a modem router with 4g sim and I'll be powering that with my custom psu and tidal connect to that. Wifi to phone hotspot resolved many SQ issues with tethered Ethernet and is inherently decoupled from the wired mess.


----------



## Ards

801evan said:


> I've tried the switches route and it gets dicey. It's not different from my experiment where 3 to 4 USB hubs was improving the sound and I went up to 11 isilencers improving the sound. 😂


It's a very slippery slope!  And sanity goes down that slope very quickly  

Eventually somebody will be able to fully explain/measure the issue, and then provide a very simple solution.  But for now, we live with the speculation of electrical noise pollution, in its various forms, and do our best to mitigate them by ear.  The optical network connections have helped the simplification process immensely, IMO.


----------



## 801evan

Ards said:


> It's a very slippery slope!  And sanity goes down that slope very quickly
> 
> Eventually somebody will be able to fully explain/measure the issue, and then provide a very simple solution.  But for now, we live with the speculation of electrical noise pollution, in its various forms, and do our best to mitigate them by ear.  The optical network connections have helped the simplification process immensely, IMO.


All devices is dependent on power quality and to power one device is expensive. So even while  I'm just having a phone and the zen stream connecting to it via hotspot, the quality is much better than any modem designed to handle networking and multiple devices and without a good psu. It also is proof the shorter the chain the better and nipping the issue in the bud.


----------



## Triode User

Ards said:


> Yes, optical is only part of the solution.  A high-end switch seems mandatory due to noise issue with standard switches.  I wish the PhoenixNET supported optical, as I'd very likely use one myself thanks to the Sean Jacobs internal power.  My current route is SoTM switch->optical->Melco S100->optical->OpticalRendu - so my endpoint is optically isolated, which then sends USB onwards to the PhoenixUSB.   Both the Melco and OpticalRendu are powered by Farad3.  The SoTM switch isolates the Melco from the network, so that it can do it's job as cleanly as possible.  I used to have multiple SoTM switches, which worked well with copper ethernet, but once I switched to optical, the extra switches were no longer needed.


It looks like you are well sorted as soon as you ditch Roon 😜. The only other suggestion is that each time I have changed from a Farad Super3 to a Sean Jacobs power supply everything has got better although the Super3 is indeed pretty good.


----------



## Triode User

801evan said:


> All devices is dependent on power quality and to power one device is expensive. So even while  I'm just having a phone and the zen stream connecting to it via hotspot, the quality is much better than any modem designed to handle networking and multiple devices and without a good psu. It also is proof the shorter the chain the better and nipping the issue in the bud.


Although I have a Qobuz subscription I mostly play locally stored rips/downloaded files but even so I need a network connection to control playback (even when I remove the broadband connection which is 4G). I have found that the local network connection even without broadband can still have an effect on sound quality and that is where / why I use the PhoenixNET.


----------



## 801evan

Triode User said:


> Although I have a Qobuz subscription I mostly play locally stored rips/downloaded files but even so I need a network connection to control playback (even when I remove the broadband connection which is 4G). I have found that the local network connection even without broadband can still have an effect on sound quality and that is where / why I use the PhoenixNET.


In all other cases except my zen stream chain,local files are superior with a big gap. With that said, local files always pales in comparison to my cdt + ocxo setup. Hope that explains the big leap with the zen stream.


----------



## burbster

I have previously delved very deep down the file based playback rabbit hole. I ended up with a horribly convoluted audio chain, from back to back Ethernet switches separated by fibre, then into an audiophile switch, then via a filter into a server, then into a renderer, then into a re-clocker, then into HMS etc. Yet, infuriatingly, I always preferred the sound of my CDT (which cost substantially less that the the total cost of my file based chain).  I am convinced, that very soon they will work it all out, and file based playback will become superior, I am even tempted to go back in now, with something like the Grim MU1, which seems to getting great reviews. I really do miss the convenience and new music discovery of streaming.


----------



## 801evan

burbster said:


> Yet, infuriatingly, I always preferred the sound of my CDT (which cost substantially less that the the total cost of my file based chain).


Lol yes.3 years of optimizing every day went down the drain when I switched to CDT. I'm 5 CDTs deep now and cycling through that was journey of its own.


----------



## Ards

801evan said:


> All devices is dependent on power quality and to power one device is expensive. So even while  I'm just having a phone and the zen stream connecting to it via hotspot, the quality is much better than any modem designed to handle networking and multiple devices and without a good psu. It also is proof the shorter the chain the better and nipping the issue in the bud.


Yes, if it works.  For me, using wi-fi means an unstable signal at my hi-fi (a house with heavy interior brick walls) and continual sound drop-outs.  So not a solution for me


----------



## 801evan

Ards said:


> Yes, if it works.  For me, using wi-fi means an unstable signal at my hi-fi (a house with heavy interior brick walls) and continual sound drop-outs.  So not a solution for me


That's correct especially when doing shared connections with other people. That's why having the zen stream connect to the phone's hotspot  is a dedicated connection. If you have poor 4g,LTE,5g in your listening area then you can have potential issues too.


----------



## Ards

Triode User said:


> It looks like you are well sorted as soon as you ditch Roon 😜. The only other suggestion is that each time I have changed from a Farad Super3 to a Sean Jacobs power supply everything has got better although the Super3 is indeed pretty good.


Would love to ditch Roon.  Have even tried a couple of times, but there is no truly viable alternative that I can find and so I keep coming back.  

Yes, I have zero doubt that further gains could be made by exploring power supplies.  But I literally don't have space for the Sean Jacobs.   The Farads are the perfect compromise of form and function for my application.

So, for now, I'm pretty much done I think.   Awaiting the next game changer.


----------



## burbster

801evan said:


> That's about right. And as a test to validate, a good CDT hooked up straight to the Dave should sound better than having a HMS in-between.


I am also intrigued by this comment, I may actually give this a try, tonight!


----------



## 801evan

burbster said:


> I am also intrigued by this comment, I may actually give this a try, tonight!


It's part of psu quality. HMS has good regulation so it acts like a good ddc plus oversampling. Kinda like souping up a switch/router plus a good psu for it. But since my cdt + ocxo has better psu quality and clock performance, HMS was hurting it than helping it.

Also why I can easily drive the Susvara + Stealth on the Dave.


----------



## Amberlamps

Triode User said:


> Although I have a Qobuz subscription I mostly play locally stored rips/downloaded files but even so I need a network connection to control playback (even when I remove the broadband connection which is 4G). I have found that the local network connection even without broadband can still have an effect on sound quality and that is where / why I use the PhoenixNET.



i use qobuz, but lately I have been plagued with the “this track is loading slowly”  with roon. Not sure if its a qobuz, or a roon problem.

What ever is happening, it’s taking the piss, thats fo sho.


----------



## Ards

Amberlamps said:


> i use qobuz, but lately I have been plagued with the “this track is loading slowly” with roon. Not sure if its a qobuz, or a roon problem.


My own experience here is that this a Roon issue, caused by local networking issues.  Been using Qobuz a lot over the past few days with no such complaints...  Try the Roon Community forum for advice.


----------



## Ards

801evan said:


> It's part of psu quality. HMS has good regulation so it acts like a good ddc plus oversampling. Kinda like souping up a switch/router plus a good psu for it. But since my cdt + ocxo has better psu quality and clock performance, HMS was hurting it than helping it.
> 
> Also why I can easily drive the Susvara + Stealth on the Dave.


But then you are missing out on the huge benefits the HMS brings in it's upscaling.  What cables are you using between the HMS and the DAVE?  This is a known weak spot and can be resolved in a number of ways; typically with Wave cables or the Opto DX platform.


----------



## 801evan

Ards said:


> But then you are missing out on the huge benefits the HMS brings in it's upscaling.  What cables are you using between the HMS and the DAVE?  This is a known weak spot and can be resolved in a number of ways; typically with Wave cables or the Opto DX platform.


I have my own silver digital cable that surpasses silver ones that are 'on spec' and it is practically 1:1 with optical which no coax I've tried have come close.

My CDT can upscale to 192khz with an ocxo. But after all the tests, 44.1khz is still king. Beats pggb, HQplayer upsampling and 192/24 wav counterparts. The only thing to come close or beat it is MQA. I've already powered the HMS with Hypsos, hypsos + Voltage regulators and a modded ifi elite with silver cables.

Upscaling has benefits but to a point . For example it made my phone sound close to my cdt on oversampling with HMS. But CDT is still veiled compared to it being plugged in to the Dave at 44.1, which speaks volumes that power quality and clock quality is important...hence the many mods on switches and routers with clocks and psu.

Sadly I havent tested zen stream mqa to HMS to Dave. That would have been sweet but I ran out of psu and cables to make that happen.


----------



## Ards

Interesting.  Your experience is the opposite of mine: HMS makes a huge difference; native 192/24 are audibly superior to 44.1; MQA is horrible.  But that's the beauty of hi-fi - it's a subjective experience and each person's experience is theirs alone.


----------



## 801evan (Jun 14, 2022)

Ards said:


> Interesting.  Your experience is the opposite of mine: HMS makes a huge difference; native 192/24 are audibly superior to 44.1; MQA is horrible.  But that's the beauty of hi-fi - it's a subjective experience and each person's experience is theirs alone.


I had the same sentiments as yours on all that until I started improving my transport, digital chain and psu quality. Remember I blew a bit of $$ on Hi-Res before my first CDT. So yes, it's surprising everything flips around. MQA is lower distortion so it'll emphasize distortion in other parts of the chain. Back then, MQA sounds like a cassette tape compared to Hi-Res hence the splurge on Hi-Res. Now it's flipped. 

Even on MQA CD it felt off initially and sub-standard since the master was on 96khz and  CD is 44hz clock frequency so the upsampling is 88khz. But now the mqa cd is even better than tidal streaming. Less ringing than before and less interference. The throat on the vocals sounds less pinched or strained.

192/24 sound better than 44.1/16 on basic USB chain and  weaker transports. On a good chain, 192/24 has a ringing effect and the timing/flow is worse, leading edge is artificial. Pggb and HQplayer's timbre is shot, artificially wide and flat like roadkill...HMS' timbre is intact in comparison.


----------



## Somatic

Anyone know of an elegant rack solution for a desk? Mscaler + Dave ...


----------



## chesebert

Triode User said:


> In theory the RCA output from Dave is slightly better than XLR but in practice I use XLR from my Dave to my Pass Labs power amp because that is a fully configured balanced design, If you use the XLR output then I have found a cheap pro cable such as the Belden 8760 to be about as good as it gets.


If your Pass has a differential design (I am sure it is) then you would be better off using the RCA given the amp will convert that into balanced. Chord’s opamp implementation of its XLR output is not ideal.


----------



## Somatic

NYanakiev said:


> And yes, I am aware it is better to keep the two separated but I love the cleaner setup!


Can you let me know which stand this is? Would be perfect for my desk setup. Thank you.


----------



## Triode User

Somatic said:


> Anyone know of an elegant rack solution for a desk? Mscaler + Dave ...


Yes, Dave on the rack or table and Mscaler on the floor (eh, @bpcans ?) 😜.


----------



## Somatic

Ok Dave got me once already. I was listening to Kind of Blue off the Final A8000 iem with a crossfeed of 1 and HF Fil ON. 

After a few songs I started to feel like I was coming up on a euphoric music high. The trumpet sounded so realistic and was the edge of sibilant at times.  Closed my eyes and whamo. Full on body high. I felt like Miles was expressing all his emotions straight to me. I felt he dealt with more crap than me and I felt for the guy. I even had a tear flow down my eye. I felt that strong euphoria for 2-5 minutes. Afterwards I felt some residual effects for 15 mins +. 

Was amazing. I believe the key was my mental state, music selection etc. but one of the attributes that got me there was the timbre of the trumpet. So realistic, emotion just transferred with ease.


----------



## zen87192 (Jun 14, 2022)

> Was amazing. I believe the key was my mental state, music selection etc. but one of the attributes that got me there was the timbre of the trumpet. So realistic, emotion just transferred with ease.



One's Mental state and Health at the time of listening plays a great part in how one receives the music. A very slight headache, congestion, cold even tiredness will affect the 'flow' of the music into the body. For most, a hard thing to achieve, spot on perfect health and a calm listening environment, but we do the best we can don't we... and sometimes the music actually makes us better... sometimes.


----------



## livebylake

zen87192 said:


> One's Mental state and Health at the time of listening plays a great part in how one receives the music. A very slight headache, congestion, cold even tiredness will affect the 'flow' of the music into the body. For most, a hard thing to achieve, spot on perfect health and a calm listening environment, but we do the best we can don't we... and sometimes the music actually makes us better... sometimes.


Very good point. Maybe manufacturers need to think about mood friendly, health friendly and environment friendly Streamers/Dacs/Amps/Headphones? When building the chain, we can have a lot of combinations here, such as environment friendly amp + heath friendly streamer?


----------



## zen87192

livebylake said:


> Very good point. Maybe manufacturers need to think about mood friendly, health friendly and environment friendly Streamers/Dacs/Amps/Headphones? When building the chain, we can have a lot of combinations here, such as environment friendly amp + heath friendly streamer?


You'd better Patent those ideas then...


----------



## livebylake

zen87192 said:


> You'd better Patent those ideas then...


Haha. 

Seriously though, audio valuation is totally subjective. I was not happy with my TT2/LCD-5, thinking it's a little bit too bright. Thinking about EQ/DAVE/M Scaler/Susvara etc. Then a week ago, I changed the streamer, used WiFi instead of Ethernet, toslink instead of USB, upgraded power cable for the streamer and LPS for TT2, now I am totally happy and settled.


----------



## zen87192 (Jun 14, 2022)

livebylake said:


> Haha.
> 
> Seriously though, audio valuation is totally subjective. I was not happy with my TT2/LCD-5, thinking it's a little bit too bright. Thinking about EQ/DAVE/M Scaler/Susvara etc. Then a week ago, I changed the streamer, used WiFi instead of Ethernet, toslink instead of USB, upgraded power cable for the streamer and LPS for TT2, now I am totally happy and settled.


One of the OP (@Somatic) answers was quoted as his possible 'Mental state' at the time of listening not the caliber of his audio equipment. No doubt you are correct in stating swapping a few things about may improve one's personal listening experience but if you've got a cold, headache or your mind is not completely focused on your listening this will affect the overall listening experience. I too have a nice set up in my opinion. But.... if I've had a 'full on' day or am tired I don't hear such a great system then. I get up the next day 'all bright and bushy tailed' and my system sounds awesome.


----------



## Somatic

I was doing a search a didn't find the answer. Wondering how hot your Dave gets? 25% less than burning pain normal? I feel it gets slightly warner than the TT2. Thoughts?


----------



## DJJEZ

Somatic said:


> I was doing a search a didn't find the answer. Wondering how hot your Dave gets? 25% less than burning pain normal? I feel it gets slightly warner than the TT2. Thoughts?


very warm but not burning.


----------



## Somatic

Triode User said:


> I have done a full PM to you with info that I cannot post in the thread but I wanted to put the record straight regarding your comments on the price. The WAVE STREAM Dual BNC cables for the MScaler start at £495 for a pair delivered.


Wondering why the price has doubled?


----------



## nwavesailor

How about if you ask @Triode User this in a PM?


----------



## Somatic

nwavesailor said:


> How about if you ask @Triode User this in a PM?


Sorry. Is Triode User the creator Nick Bacon? Learning the community thanks. I’ll PM.


----------



## Somatic

If one is running the Mscaler off battery power are ferrited cables needed? Thanks for the info.


----------



## 801evan

Somatic said:


> If one is running the Mscaler off battery power are ferrited cables needed? Thanks for the info.


Seems like the situation. Because it's the HMS that's generating the interference. Overtime experiment going back to mains with a good lps. Powerbanks aren't that great but is better than unfiltered mains.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 15, 2022)

801evan said:


> Powerbanks aren't that great but is better than unfiltered mains.


Powerbanks are definitely not that great. Especially those with fans that run at any excuse. Fans in smallish devices must themselves be small. Small fans create a lot of noise to shift enough air to cool an inverter.

When using open-back headphones that noise is a complete no-no.

There is little point in breaking the bank to eliminate noise from an audio system to then squander those costly gains to 40+dB of noise from fans in the listening room.

I built my own powerbanks using separate chargers, LiFePO4 golf cart batteries, and oversized inverters from which I'd removed the fans. Because the power draw is low the inverters remain cool when the system is running. 

I use LiPO4 batteries because they have a much longer life in terms of discharge cycles than Lithium, and they can be discharged much more deeply than is good for Lithium units. 

When listening I disconnect the chargers from the batteries (the chargers came with in-line connectors) so the system is electrically totally isolated from the mains.

When considering the sources of rf noise it is worth remembering that the rf noise from the m scaler and rf noise from the mains are verydifferent in character. The m scaler produces noise in a limited spectrum which is why bnc cables with judiciously placed ferrites work. The cables are tuned to baffle that specific noise.

Mains rf is a totally different animal. kV transients arrive randomly. Think of the mains wiring in your dwelling and building as a large radio antenna hoovering up all the EM ambient noise there is and funnelling it into your system.

Rather than trying to reject this noise after it has arrived, it is better not to receive it at all. Hence the idea of running "off grid" on batteries 😀


----------



## Somatic

SteveHulk said:


> Powerbanks are definitely not that great. Especially those with fans that run at any excuse. Fans in smallish devices must themselves be small. Small fans create a lot of noise to shift enough air to cool an inverter.
> 
> When using open-back headphones that noise is a complete no-no.
> 
> ...


So are you running your whole setup off grid? Including Dave and source etc?


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> So are you running your whole setup off grid? Including Dave and source etc?


Yes all of it, including the Woo WA5LE.


----------



## Somatic

SteveHulk said:


> Yes all of it, including the Woo WA5LE.


Damn. That would be ideal but what if one is not an Engineer. I cant find an off the shelf or kit to do something similar?


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> Damn. That would be ideal but what if one is not an Engineer. I cant find an off the shelf or kit to do something similar?


It's not really a case of being an engineer. Wiring a charger to a battery and wiring that same battery to an inverter is extremely straightforward.

Off the shelf kits, ie powerbanks, always seem to have some problem or other. Mostly to do with cussed fan noise, but also many have extremely limited power through their dc outlets even though they might have a reasonably hefty inverter on board. Others will only silence their fans if they are left plugged into the mains, which as far as I am concerned defeats the main purpose of isolation.


----------



## Somatic

SteveHulk said:


> It's not really a case of being an engineer. Wiring a charger to a battery and wiring that same battery to an inverter is extremely straightforward.
> 
> Off the shelf kits, ie powerbanks, always seem to have some problem or other. Mostly to do with cussed fan noise, but also many have extremely limited power through their dc outlets even though they might have a reasonably hefty inverter on board. Others will only silence their fans if they are left plugged into the mains, which as far as I am concerned defeats the main purpose of isolation.


Hmmm very curious of your solution ... can you share the parts list etc?

I found a few off the shelf kits. Power Stations using LiFePO4. Seems that they have vents. I assume they have fans as well. Hmmmm ...

https://www.bluettipower.com/collections/power-stations

https://us.anker.com/products/a1770...1770_purchase_ost&utm_content=A1770&utm_term={16931470237}_{}_{}


----------



## genefruit

Somatic said:


> Hmmm very curious of your solution ... can you share the parts list etc?
> 
> I found a few off the shelf kits. Power Stations using LiFePO4. Seems that they have vents. I assume they have fans as well. Hmmmm ...
> 
> ...


Out of interest, I tracked down a post - https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hug...fficial-thread.885042/page-1023#post-16961153


----------



## SteveHulk

genefruit said:


> Out of interest, I tracked down a post - https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hug...fficial-thread.885042/page-1023#post-16961153


That is the very post to which I was going to refer @Somatic 😀


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> Hmmm very curious of your solution ... can you share the parts list etc?
> 
> I found a few off the shelf kits. Power Stations using LiFePO4. Seems that they have vents. I assume they have fans as well. Hmmmm ...
> 
> ...


They certainly will have fans. Moreover the vents will make them even more noisy because of the air turbulence the vents cause.

I have been around this loop with power banks and I advise you to steer clear and spend your money on components instead.


----------



## Reactcore (Jun 15, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Hmmm very curious of your solution ... can you share the parts list etc?
> 
> I found a few off the shelf kits. Power Stations using LiFePO4. Seems that they have vents. I assume they have fans as well. Hmmmm ...
> 
> ...


I wouldnt go for a invertered ac battery supply for dave.
Dave and HMS PSU both can run from a DC 120v battery. No switching cause that gives HF noise.

Im busy designing a linear regulated battery solution to feed 5v, 15v  -15 v into Dave and separate 12v for HMS into one housing.

Linear like DC4, Farad but completely off the mains


----------



## Somatic

iDesign said:


> Agreed. I found that the expensive BNC cables with ferrites popularized in this forum were improperly constructed and caused significant problems with my DAVE. The $7.49 original equipment 2m Pro Signal RG59 cables with ferrites yielded significantly better performance.


Which ferrites did you use?


----------



## nwavesailor

If a $7.49 ferrite cable works, that's GREAT! Take it as truth of perhaps a troll, I sure don't know. 

You have spent a boatload of $$$ on TOTL gear and I suppose spending $7.49 (or $15 a pair) would be an interesting experiment that might be fantastic. 
We all want to save dough and have a free lunch.

Everyone has an opinion and that's what makes these forums both fun and maddening at times.


----------



## iDesign (Jun 15, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Which ferrites did you use?


Listed here and it has worked perfectly fine for me ever since Rob Watts' 2017 post. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...-official-thread.831343/page-87#post-13696537


----------



## Somatic (Jun 15, 2022)

iDesign said:


> Listed here and it has worked perfectly fine for me ever since Rob Watts' 2017 post. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...-official-thread.831343/page-87#post-13696537


Thanks I read his initial post. Seems to be a good stop gap. Sounds like it works well. Curious, did you go with 2 ferrites or 4 on each cable?

@naynay Curious if you can link your ferrite recipe as well. I would like to compare. Thanks.


----------



## iDesign (Jun 15, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Thanks I read his initial post. Seems to be a good stop gap. Sounds like it works well. Curious, did you go with 2 ferrites or 4 on each cable?
> 
> @naynay Curious if you can link your ferrite recipe as well. I would like to compare. Thanks.


2M RG59 with 20 ferrites on each cable. And mind you my other system cables include High Fidelity Cables mains and the ChordMusic ARAY USB cable. Its simply that RG59 cables with Würth ferrites have worked exceptionally well and price has absolutely nothing to do with performance.


----------



## Somatic

iDesign said:


> 2M RG59 with 20 ferrites on each cable. And mind you my other system cables include High Fidelity Cables mains and the ChordMusic ARAY USB cable. Its simply that RG59 cables with Würth ferrites have worked exceptionally well and price has absolutely nothing to do with performance.


Nice. Took it to the max with 20 ferrites on each. Ok good to know. Thanks.


----------



## Reactcore (Jun 16, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Thanks I read his initial post. Seems to be a good stop gap. Sounds like it works well. Curious, did you go with 2 ferrites or 4 on each cable?
> 
> @naynay Curious if you can link your ferrite recipe as well. I would like to compare. Thanks.


@iDesign is using this on a BLU2..
For Mscaler clip-on ferrites have opposite effect.. as it has (partly) inbuilt RF rejection. Here solid ferrites work better as you can read Rob's comments about it in the 1st pages of Mscaler thread.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hug...nics-the-official-thread.885042/post-14496230

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hug...nics-the-official-thread.885042/post-14572281


----------



## SteveHulk

Ards said:


> After a week of delay, thanks to the UK Queen's Jubilee double bank-holiday and then FedEx's ridiculously manual duties payment system, I finally received my Farad3 upgrade kit.





SteveHulk said:


> And I have the Farad3 coming in tomorrow... Wonder what *that* will add to the DAVE 😳😁


... And it's delayed until Monday. Just because Fedex couldn't get their act together and take payment of the taxes before today. Even though they told me what the taxes would be on Wednesday. I've been trying to pay them since then.

Now I hate FedEx too 😡


----------



## Triode User

SteveHulk said:


> ... And it's delayed until Monday. Just because Fedex couldn't get their act together and take payment of the taxes before today. Even though they told me what the taxes would be on Wednesday. I've been trying to pay them since then.
> 
> Now I hate FedEx too 😡


Maybe FedEx trust me but I had something delivered via FedEx and they sent the duty invoice after delivery. However I admit I do find it easier to pay import duty with DHL rather than Fedex.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 17, 2022)

Triode User said:


> Maybe FedEx trust me but I had something delivered via FedEx and they sent the duty invoice after delivery. However I admit I do find it easier to pay import duty with DHL rather than Fedex.


Maybe there's an upper limit on value beyond which they won't do that. Could be that you have a good track record built up over many deliveries or that you already had a shipping account linked to a payment method. I tried to do that but bounced off their stupid website. I eventually found out that an account had in fact been created when I phoned them up. They gave me the account number but the site refused to link it to my profile name so I couldn't use it. I phoned them again and was told that the account was some kind of zombie that was flagged for deletion and that I needed to send an email to some address and they'd get back to me. This clearly wasn't going to happen in time for this delivery. I eventually got through today again on the phone when I received the tax payment notification and the nice man kindly deleted the zombie and created and linked a new account there and then on the phone even though it wasn't actually his problem.

I only got through to him because I ignored all the menu options when calling and just kept retrying until a got an actual person. When I followed the options to "pay invoice" I got told to do it online and booted out of the call even though the invoice told me to phone. I found that I can't pay by credit card online, only direct bank transfer. There is no way I'm giving these clowns my bank details.

Sorry about venting but this leaden-footed Kafka-esque bureaucracy is just totally soul-destroying.

Don't get me wrong, the actual people were very sweet. It's just the system they are forced to operate sucks.


----------



## zen87192

SteveHulk said:


> ... And it's delayed until Monday. Just because Fedex couldn't get their act together and take payment of the taxes before today. Even though they told me what the taxes would be on Wednesday. I've been trying to pay them since then.
> 
> Now I hate FedEx too 😡


Oh great... something for me to NOT look forward to.... I hope my delivery goes through without too much of delay. Looking forward to installing it immensely. 😀


----------



## Ards

Triode User said:


> Maybe FedEx trust me but I had something delivered via FedEx and they sent the duty invoice after delivery.


That had always been my experience with FedEx, so was pleased when I saw it was shipped with them.  That pleasure didn't last long this time...  But the upgrade finally arrived and the pain of the journey is quickly forgotten


----------



## Somatic

Looking for a source for the Dave. It’s hard for me to believe there are big gains from a dedicated streamer. I am using optical out on a Windows 10 PC. I like the flexibility of a desktop. 

Was thinking of maybe getting a Mac Mini 2014 version fully upgraded to use optical out and add a mod that should let me use a LPS of battery. Thoughts?

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/mac-mini-dc-conversion-linear-fan-controller-kit-mmk


----------



## Cortazar

go for auralic Aries! great value for little money


----------



## sm60

Somatic said:


> Anyone know of an elegant rack solution for a desk? Mscaler + Dave ...


One advantage of the Blu2/Dave combo is the nice Chord rack you can get with it. I like the older design better.


----------



## Triode User (Jun 18, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Looking for a source for the Dave. It’s hard for me to believe there are big gains from a dedicated streamer. I am using optical out on a Windows 10 PC. I like the flexibility of a desktop.
> 
> Was thinking of maybe getting a Mac Mini 2014 version fully upgraded to use optical out and add a mod that should let me use a LPS of battery. Thoughts?
> 
> https://uptoneaudio.com/products/mac-mini-dc-conversion-linear-fan-controller-kit-mmk


You haven’t had Dave for long. Take time, get used to it for a while before you get your wallet out again then get some home demos of streamers and a really good listen. They do sound different and in my opinion there are big gains to be made over and above a pc and using optical is not a get out of jail free card. Also get used to how different playback software can affect the sound quality. Try Roon and realise that there is no free lunch, you can’t have that jazzy interface and ultimate sound quality to match the Dave.

I use Innuos and Antipodes streamers for a SQ reason but there are plenty of other good ones out there.


----------



## livebylake

Somatic said:


> Looking for a source for the Dave. It’s hard for me to believe there are big gains from a dedicated streamer. I am using optical out on a Windows 10 PC. I like the flexibility of a desktop.
> 
> Was thinking of maybe getting a Mac Mini 2014 version fully upgraded to use optical out and add a mod that should let me use a LPS of battery. Thoughts?
> 
> https://uptoneaudio.com/products/mac-mini-dc-conversion-linear-fan-controller-kit-mmk


Hi Somatic, recently I sold my reference level stereo system built 7 years and built a headphone based system. I was about to PM you about adding a dedicated streamer because I realized you were using PC this morning. I also was about to suggest you try TT2 with a good LPS, I used a Farad super3 and just received the Furrem Hypsos yestereday, it's really amazing. As for the Streamer, Auralic Aries is only about $800 used and easy to get, you can try and see if it make any difference for you. If you see difference, you can go to G1 and G2.1 (both are very hard to get used but not insanely expensive new). For Streamer, I would use WiFi and Toslink and avoid all the RF issue with Ethernet and USB. I think this whole Dave and M Scaler is a rabit hole of adding tones of boxes and money. I went to AXPONA 2022 in Chicago this April, hear tons of setups, with my simple Aries G1 -> TT2 -> LCD-5, I did not miss any of them. I also do not know if I will go to CanJam Chicago tomorrow to see any other setups though Chicago is only 20 mins drive away from me.


----------



## Somatic

livebylake said:


> Hi Somatic, recently I sold my reference level stereo system built 7 years and built a headphone based system. I was about to PM you about adding a dedicated streamer because I realized you were using PC this morning. I also was about to suggest you try TT2 with a good LPS, I used a Farad super3 and just received the Furrem Hypsos yestereday, it's really amazing. As for the Streamer, Auralic Aries is only about $800 used and easy to get, you can try and see if it make any difference for you. If you see difference, you can go to G1 and G2.1 (both are very hard to get used but not insanely expensive new). For Streamer, I would use WiFi and Toslink and avoid all the RF issue with Ethernet and USB. I think this whole Dave and M Scaler is a rabit hole of adding tones of boxes and money. I went to AXPONA 2022 in Chicago this April, hear tons of setups, with my simple Aries G1 -> TT2 -> LCD-5, I did not miss any of them. I also do not know if I will go to CanJam Chicago tomorrow to see any other setups though Chicago is only 20 mins drive away from me.


Never got to try TT2 with an LPS. Curious on how that sounds. I would go to can jam if it was close. Be good to hear other hear combos. 

I’ll check out the Aries, Innuos and Antipodesline streamers. Thanks everyone.


----------



## sm60

Somatic said:


> Never got to try TT2 with an LPS. Curious on how that sounds. I would go to can jam if it was close. Be good to hear other hear combos.
> 
> I’ll check out the Aries, Innuos and Antipodesline streamers. Thanks everyone.


I went through this same journey with my first CD player in 1986! Back then, as a young twenty something, I was in grad school working on my PhD dissertation in computer science in a strange field called artificial intelligence (AI). Of course, like everyone back then, I thought “bits are bits”, how could the source possibly matter. So, I bought the cheapest CD player I could find, a rickety thing made by Magnavox (US version of the Dutch Phillips firm that co-invented CD). It used 14 bit D-to-A converters and a quadruple over sampling method to recover 16 bit data. Cost me $100, I think. Of course, back then, converters were not very good, you got maybe 12 bits of linearity. When I hooked it up and played back a few CDs, I was deflated. It sounded much worse than my air-bearing turntable made by a company called Mapleknoll (which I later upgraded to the Well-Tempered Turntable made by Bill Firebaugh, which amazingly is still being produced, as is the Linn Sondek LP12). When I tried hooking up Sony’s first portable CD player called the Discman, it sounded even worse. I learned an early lesson that I have never forgotten. Source matters, even in digital. Back then, the cheapest turntables like the Rega Planar 3 sounded hugely better than the crappy CD players that were being produced. The manufacturers were so convinced of digital technology that they used the cheapest motor, the cheapest transports, all plastic from rubbish parts, because, hey, it’s digital, how could the source possibly matter. Finally, Sony stepped up their game and their ES (Elevated Standard) line started making much better CD players with massively built transports and high quality converters and highly regulated power supplies. I bought my first Sony ES player and was flabbergasted how much better it was than the old crappy Magnavox. Those early Sony ES players are still prized and sell on eBay for good money.

Fastforward 36 years! Same story, but now with media servers. Use the cheapest crappy Windows laptop you can find to stream music, how can the source possibly matter? Well, now the tables are turned. We have 35 years of experience building CD transports. My CEC TL0 transport that is massively built compared to my crappy Magnavox is still better sounding in my experience than any streaming source I have heard at any bitrate. We are in the Magnavox stage of building media servers for audio. Companies like Qobuz and Roon are still in their infancy in being able to offer reliable streaming. Roon breaks down every other week. Playlists disappear all the time. It’s like the early web browsers like Netscape that crashed every 5 minutes, more often if you tried downloading an image. Back then, if you told me we’d be streaming 4K movies, I’d have laughed. But eventually computer scientists figured out how to transport media reliably over the internet using overlay networks (one of my academic colleagues did a breakthrough PhD dissertation on overlay networks that changed the field and he went on to co-found Akamai, which pretty much runs large parts of the web now, including I suspect, most of Qobuz and Tidal streaming).

But we are still at a very young stage for high Rez audio streaming. Roon caters to the lowest common denominator. I view them as the Magnavox of media streaming. Spotify and the rest are even worse. Better products will come eventually and streaming will finally start to sound as good as direct disc playback. But it’s not there today. Which is why I’m holding on to my optical media. Optical media is bulletproof. My first CD bought in 1985 still plays back perfectly. I have a closet full  of dead USB hard drives. Hard drive technology gets worse every year as the drives get larger. The larger the drive, the more unreliable it is.

There are good servers, but they are very expensive now (e.g., the Taiko Extreme costs 25 grand and is the Rolls Royce of media servers). Eventually this technology trickles down. But USB has got to go. I don’t think it will ever sound as good as a dedicated digital audio interface like AES balanced, which pros use. For one, the ridiculously unreliable USB connector cannot be made to lock in securely. Taiko Extreme has supposedly the best sounding Extreme USB interface. Haven’t heard it, so can’t say anything. If you want good sound, use optical, like Rob Watts recommends, or balanced AES. USB is the cassette tape technology of the streaming world.


----------



## zen87192 (Jun 18, 2022)

A nice write up @sm60 👍 My first CD Player was the Sony CDP-101 and then I was lucky enough to have a Sony Discman D-50 Portable two years later. Technology started to accelerate from there onwards. Today, I'm still using a 'retro' CD Player, a Pioneer PD-S904 Stable Platter which serves me well connected to my DAVE via Optical. I'm now looking to upgrade my CD player and was looking toward a Jay's Audio CDT2 MK3 Transport Deck. But.... I've also been contemplating the Chord Blu Mk2 with the built in MScaler.
Anyone have any thoughts on the Chord Blu Mk2 vs Jay's MK3? Does the Blu Mk2 still have the 'RF difficulties' as the stand alone MScaler?
Again, many thanks to all who chime in with their thoughts and comments. 🍻


----------



## Somatic

sm60 said:


> I went through this same journey with my first CD player in 1986! Back then, as a young twenty something, I was in grad school working on my PhD dissertation in computer science in a strange field called artificial intelligence (AI). Of course, like everyone back then, I thought “bits are bits”, how could the source possibly matter. So, I bought the cheapest CD player I could find, a rickety thing made by Magnavox (US version of the Dutch Phillips firm that co-invented CD). It used 14 bit D-to-A converters and a quadruple over sampling method to recover 16 bit data. Cost me $100, I think. Of course, back then, converters were not very good, you got maybe 12 bits of linearity. When I hooked it up and played back a few CDs, I was deflated. It sounded much worse than my air-bearing turntable made by a company called Mapleknoll (which I later upgraded to the Well-Tempered Turntable made by Bill Firebaugh, which amazingly is still being produced, as is the Linn Sondek LP12). When I tried hooking up Sony’s first portable CD player called the Discman, it sounded even worse. I learned an early lesson that I have never forgotten. Source matters, even in digital. Back then, the cheapest turntables like the Rega Planar 3 sounded hugely better than the crappy CD players that were being produced. The manufacturers were so convinced of digital technology that they used the cheapest motor, the cheapest transports, all plastic from rubbish parts, because, hey, it’s digital, how could the source possibly matter. Finally, Sony stepped up their game and their ES (Elevated Standard) line started making much better CD players with massively built transports and high quality converters and highly regulated power supplies. I bought my first Sony ES player and was flabbergasted how much better it was than the old crappy Magnavox. Those early Sony ES players are still prized and sell on eBay for good money.
> 
> Fastforward 36 years! Same story, but now with media servers. Use the cheapest crappy Windows laptop you can find to stream music, how can the source possibly matter? Well, now the tables are turned. We have 35 years of experience building CD transports. My CEC TL0 transport that is massively built compared to my crappy Magnavox is still better sounding in my experience than any streaming source I have heard at any bitrate. We are in the Magnavox stage of building media servers for audio. Companies like Qobuz and Roon are still in their infancy in being able to offer reliable streaming. Roon breaks down every other week. Playlists disappear all the time. It’s like the early web browsers like Netscape that crashed every 5 minutes, more often if you tried downloading an image. Back then, if you told me we’d be streaming 4K movies, I’d have laughed. But eventually computer scientists figured out how to transport media reliably over the internet using overlay networks (one of my academic colleagues did a breakthrough PhD dissertation on overlay networks that changed the field and he went on to co-found Akamai, which pretty much runs large parts of the web now, including I suspect, most of Qobuz and Tidal streaming).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the perspective. This makes perfect sense. Ok this will probably be my next upgrade. Appreciate the history lesson.


----------



## Somatic

sm60 said:


> I went through this same journey with my first CD player in 1986! Back then, as a young twenty something, I was in grad school working on my PhD dissertation in computer science in a strange field called artificial intelligence (AI). Of course, like everyone back then, I thought “bits are bits”, how could the source possibly matter. So, I bought the cheapest CD player I could find, a rickety thing made by Magnavox (US version of the Dutch Phillips firm that co-invented CD). It used 14 bit D-to-A converters and a quadruple over sampling method to recover 16 bit data. Cost me $100, I think. Of course, back then, converters were not very good, you got maybe 12 bits of linearity. When I hooked it up and played back a few CDs, I was deflated. It sounded much worse than my air-bearing turntable made by a company called Mapleknoll (which I later upgraded to the Well-Tempered Turntable made by Bill Firebaugh, which amazingly is still being produced, as is the Linn Sondek LP12). When I tried hooking up Sony’s first portable CD player called the Discman, it sounded even worse. I learned an early lesson that I have never forgotten. Source matters, even in digital. Back then, the cheapest turntables like the Rega Planar 3 sounded hugely better than the crappy CD players that were being produced. The manufacturers were so convinced of digital technology that they used the cheapest motor, the cheapest transports, all plastic from rubbish parts, because, hey, it’s digital, how could the source possibly matter. Finally, Sony stepped up their game and their ES (Elevated Standard) line started making much better CD players with massively built transports and high quality converters and highly regulated power supplies. I bought my first Sony ES player and was flabbergasted how much better it was than the old crappy Magnavox. Those early Sony ES players are still prized and sell on eBay for good money.
> 
> Fastforward 36 years! Same story, but now with media servers. Use the cheapest crappy Windows laptop you can find to stream music, how can the source possibly matter? Well, now the tables are turned. We have 35 years of experience building CD transports. My CEC TL0 transport that is massively built compared to my crappy Magnavox is still better sounding in my experience than any streaming source I have heard at any bitrate. We are in the Magnavox stage of building media servers for audio. Companies like Qobuz and Roon are still in their infancy in being able to offer reliable streaming. Roon breaks down every other week. Playlists disappear all the time. It’s like the early web browsers like Netscape that crashed every 5 minutes, more often if you tried downloading an image. Back then, if you told me we’d be streaming 4K movies, I’d have laughed. But eventually computer scientists figured out how to transport media reliably over the internet using overlay networks (one of my academic colleagues did a breakthrough PhD dissertation on overlay networks that changed the field and he went on to co-found Akamai, which pretty much runs large parts of the web now, including I suspect, most of Qobuz and Tidal streaming).
> 
> ...


I dont want to highjack the Dave thread just curious on what makes other Streamers better than others? The way the are decoding, power supplies, low noise pcb architecture? Was checking out the Aries G1, looks like a good upgrade from PC.


----------



## 801evan (Jun 18, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Looking for a source for the Dave. It’s hard for me to believe there are big gains from a dedicated streamer. I am using optical out on a Windows 10 PC. I like the flexibility of a desktop.
> 
> Was thinking of maybe getting a Mac Mini 2014 version fully upgraded to use optical out and add a mod that should let me use a LPS of battery. Thoughts?
> 
> https://uptoneaudio.com/products/mac-mini-dc-conversion-linear-fan-controller-kit-mmk


Just going optical doesn't solve the situation. It simply takes out the interference factor of using coax. I've done optical many times before and thought it was undynamic/flat/poor blacks. This is with the MBP 17 inch, silent pc psu + Asus essence Ii and matrix audio element x + iso Regen + lps 1.2 + hdplex. While I appreciated the sound that is less ringy, the poor blacks and undynamic nature consistent with all those devices made me write it off for years. Then i got into CDTs, then I got into fancy power for CDTs and...optical is the only way, on a good transport with a damn good psu. You can tell you are on a good level when optical exceeds coax because distortion likes distortion and coax will be more euphonic in that scenario. And sadly, u need the best optical cable, lifatec to get that performance.

Honestly you would get better  SQ out of the mi box s optical out vs the MacBook coz you can feed it a good 5v psu.


----------



## 801evan (Jun 18, 2022)

zen87192 said:


> A nice write up @sm60 👍 My first CD Player was the Sony CDP-101 and then I was lucky enough to have a Sony Discman D-50 Portable two years later. Technology started to accelerate from there onwards. Today, I'm still using a 'retro' CD Player, a Pioneer PD-S904 Stable Platter which serves me well connected to my DAVE via Optical. I'm now looking to upgrade my CD player and was looking toward a Jay's Audio CDT2 MK3 Transport Deck. But.... I've also been contemplating the Chord Blu Mk2 with the built in MScaler.
> Anyone have any thoughts on the Chord Blu Mk2 vs Jay's MK3? Does the Blu Mk2 still have the 'RF difficulties' as the stand alone MScaler?
> Again, many thanks to all who chime in with their thoughts and comments. 🍻


I personally got a better sound out of the now recently discontinued Pro-ject ds2t + spdif purifier + what was probably my powerbank system with solid silver dc cables, or ipower x + dxpwr on both vs the jay audio cdt2 . The jay audio cdt2 MK2 became unlistenable in comparison for me. Not even an exaggeration but the mid bass was dirty/grungy and it was making the singing too theatric/dramatic (wavy and unsmooth). It also reinforces that ABX and DBT is a flawed method and only used by toxic people as an argument because it was impossible to get the same sound out of the CDT2 MK2 a CDT that Steve G says sounds like double it's price. And to think the CDT2 MK2 wiped the floor with my dedicated NUC with audio optimizer powered by hdplex + silver dc cables.

This is also why I've been saying that the Hugo2 and Dave can excellently drive the Susvara and Stealth with damn good deep bass, much to the disappointment of the beefy colored external amp peeps and brings vindication to Rob Watts design. You want bass to move down, not at you.


----------



## Triode User

zen87192 said:


> Does the Blu Mk2 still have the 'RF difficulties' as the stand alone MScaler?


It is worse because it does not have the internal filtering and isolation that RW incorporated in the later Mscaler.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 19, 2022)

sm60 said:


> I went through this same journey with my first CD player in 1986! Back then, as a young twenty something, I was in grad school working on my PhD dissertation in computer science in a strange field called artificial intelligence (AI). Of course, like everyone back then, I thought “bits are bits”, how could the source possibly matter. So, I bought the cheapest CD player I could find, a rickety thing made by Magnavox (US version of the Dutch Phillips firm that co-invented CD). It used 14 bit D-to-A converters and a quadruple over sampling method to recover 16 bit data. Cost me $100, I think. Of course, back then, converters were not very good, you got maybe 12 bits of linearity. When I hooked it up and played back a few CDs, I was deflated. It sounded much worse than my air-bearing turntable made by a company called Mapleknoll (which I later upgraded to the Well-Tempered Turntable made by Bill Firebaugh, which amazingly is still being produced, as is the Linn Sondek LP12). When I tried hooking up Sony’s first portable CD player called the Discman, it sounded even worse. I learned an early lesson that I have never forgotten. Source matters, even in digital. Back then, the cheapest turntables like the Rega Planar 3 sounded hugely better than the crappy CD players that were being produced. The manufacturers were so convinced of digital technology that they used the cheapest motor, the cheapest transports, all plastic from rubbish parts, because, hey, it’s digital, how could the source possibly matter. Finally, Sony stepped up their game and their ES (Elevated Standard) line started making much better CD players with massively built transports and high quality converters and highly regulated power supplies. I bought my first Sony ES player and was flabbergasted how much better it was than the old crappy Magnavox. Those early Sony ES players are still prized and sell on eBay for good money.


I still have a Sony CDP555ES sitting under the bed.

Twin power supplies mounted externally to the case. A suspended metal CD drive with magnetic guide rail. Converters powered separately from the drive mechanism. A solid case with isolation feet. A very heavy device with good build quality. 

It even had a nice traffic light based user interface - green for continuous play, amber for play one track, and red for "program" where you could play a selection of tracks in the order you selected them. That was very nice - an early version of a playlist. It was also possible to add tracks to the program "on the fly" even when it had started playing. 

It also had a headphone output on the front panel with its own motorised volume control which responded to the remote control. An early version of the dCS Bartók! 

Back in the eighties this thing cost a grand, at the time serious money, but you could buy it and a pair of headphones and have music right away. The rest of the audio chain could come later so making the £outlay much more bearable. All in all, just a great design. The DAVE is much in the same vein: buy it, plug your pc into the USB, plug in your headphones and you have instant music while your bank account draws breath 😁

For many years it still was a great transport with a succession of separate DACs. It was only superceded by the dCS Verdi. 

I blutacked a slab of marble (purchased from a monumental mason 🤣) to the top of the case. This has a remarkable effect of stabilising the reproduction of bass.

It was my first piece of serious kit.


----------



## DJW50 (Jun 19, 2022)

Somatic said:


> I dont want to highjack the Dave thread just curious on what makes other Streamers better than others? The way the are decoding, power supplies, low noise pcb architecture? Was checking out the Aries G1, looks like a good upgrade from PC.


I went from a late iPad which had all my favourite Amazon HD tracks on to the Auralic Aries G1 first of all the soundstage just sounded bigger and better, you can upscale any source to 352kHz 24 bit and with the smooth sound setting everything is so toe tapping musical.
The Auralic feeds into a Qutest then Pathos Inpol Ear then into my Focal Utopia's.
I have tried quite a few different DAC's over the last 6 months some 6 times the cost of the Qutest and sent them all back. But the biggest improvement to my listening pleasure came with the Auralic, I would strongly recommend it it also does internet radio very well too.
Forgot to mention just recently I bought a PS Audio Stellar Powerplant 3 and a MCRU LPS and I think this has also taken everything up a notch. I will try a DAVE at some stage just to see how it compares and of course a new one might be on the horizon.


----------



## Somatic

adrianm said:


> There was a fellow saying he added G1 to his M-scaler/Dave and it made zero difference vs pc and ProJect made it sound worse, he was in awe of the DCS Network bridge, others ended up disappointed by that as well. I guess i'll start with the Naim nd5 xs2, and then the G1.


Did you ever find a streamer?


----------



## Reactcore

SteveHulk said:


> I still have a Sony CDP555ES sitting under the bed.


My MDS JA50 is sold 10 years ago..
Together with my recorded minidisks
Were good 'ol memories.


----------



## audio_1

SteveHulk said:


> I still have a Sony CDP555ES sitting under the bed.
> 
> Twin power supplies mounted externally to the case. A suspended metal CD drive with magnetic guide rail. Converters powered separately from the drive mechanism. A solid case with isolation feet. A very heavy device with good build quality.
> 
> ...


So have I, also my first piece of serious kit in 1986. Pity the Blu 2 doesn't have similar functionality and build quality!


----------



## SteveHulk

SteveHulk said:


> I still have a Sony CDP555ES sitting under the bed.
> 
> Twin power supplies mounted externally to the case. A suspended metal CD drive with magnetic guide rail. Converters powered separately from the drive mechanism. A solid case with isolation feet. A very heavy device with good build quality.
> 
> ...


The Musical Fidelity Digilog was the first external DAC that I used with the Sony.

Obviously, compared with present-day DAC technology, the Digilog was no great shakes. But at the time, to me, it was revelatory.

The main thing I noticed was how dramatically "black" the background to the music had become. There and then I realised the deleterious effect of background noise in an audio system.

Think of the music itself visually as diamonds. If you want to display diamonds to their best advantage would you show them on black velvet or white silk?

The Digilog was my first experience of music as diamonds on black velvet.

Noise is the enemy. Both directly as acoustic noise in the audio soundstage and indirectly as electrical noise in the electronics.

It damages dynamic range as well as transients and timing in the music.

We are only now, thanks to the likes of the DAVE, becoming aware of how extraordinarily sensitive we as listeners are to these parameters.

Many of us are now confident we are on the right track when pursuing what would have previously been thought of as insanely low noise levels.

Maybe even one day all of our audio electronics will have to be immersed in liquid nitrogen! 🤣


----------



## Somatic

Triode User said:


> I have a Node 2i which I use as a Roon endpoint going into a Qutest. I like the 2i as a streamer but it gets even better with an outboard power supply . . .


How is the Node 2i with and upgrades LPS compared to the Innous


----------



## Triode User

Somatic said:


> How is the Node 2i with and upgrades LPS compared to the Innous


I used to have a Node 2i as a source to my Mscaler/Dave. It was not bad but was improved quite a bit by installing a third party power supply interface board from Poland and then using an external lps. By improved I mean smoother sound, less fatiguing etc. 

However even this upgraded 2i was outclassed by an Innuos Zenith which in turn was bettered by the Statement and Antipodes K50.

Friends have spoken very highly of the Auralic streamers.

Pick a budget and then have home demos of devices within that budget. A home demo is more or less indispensable. You need to hear them in your own system.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jun 19, 2022)

I had the node 2i with upgrade lps, found it very very nice for its money. Upgraded to second hand aurender n10 and was a big step up. You have to see the node 2 for its money worth and its good. (Also did the poland upgrade board)


----------



## DJW50

Triode User said:


> I used to have a Node 2i as a source to my Mscaler/Dave. It was not bad but was improved quite a bit by installing a third party power supply interface board from Poland and then using an external lps. By improved I mean smoother sound, less fatiguing etc.
> 
> However even this upgraded 2i was outclassed by an Innuos Zenith which in turn was bettered by the Statement and Antipodes K50.
> 
> ...


The good thing about most established dealers is that you can pay for a particular item and if it doesn't suit your system you can send it back for a refund. This is how I bought the Auralic and have tried 6 different DAC's tried them found they are no better than what I have so sent them back and got a refund. Okay I pay for return shipping but in the long run saves you spending a fortune on stuff that's not as good as you hoped.


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> Did you ever find a streamer?


Yes, the Moon Mind 2, but due  me preffering HQP+ SRC-DX over the M-scaler, I've sold them after a year and a half of ownership (No USB on the Mind2). I'm currently using my 1000w gaming pc as a Roon/Hqp core/client and...it's still quieter than the M-scaler on battery + Optical to it via streamer. I keep looking at streamers, but can't find any that supports HQP's NAA, has USB and works well with the SRC-DX. I've auditioned the SOTM 3 times. It's crazy buggy used this way. It sounds better than the PC, but only with a Farad supply. The SOTM PSU is pretty bad.
    I'm going to focus on a good headphone amp for now, i find it brings much more than a streamer, even with the Meze Elites.
 FYI i didn't like the Auralic.


----------



## Somatic

MvRBE10 said:


> I had the node 2i with upgrade lps, found it very very nice for its money. Upgraded to second hand aurender n10 and was a big step up. You have to see the node 2 for its money worth and its good. (Also did the poland upgrade board)


Mmmm that Aurender n10 looks nice. They have so many products. Is this their top of the line product? Just saw a used one selling for $5k. I’ll put this one on the short list.


----------



## MvRBE10

Somatic said:


> Mmmm that Aurender n10 looks nice. They have so many products. Is this their top of the line product? Just saw a used one selling for $5k. I’ll put this one on the short list.





Somatic said:


> Mmmm that Aurender n10 looks nice. They have so many products. Is this their top of the line product? Just saw a used one selling for $5k. I’ll put this one on the short list.


----------



## MvRBE10

I paid 4k euro so thats a good price. The new one is n20 or sw series but for now not in my spending pattern. Focus for me is now amp and speaker filter upgrade. Slowely going through the chain and learning curve


----------



## alxw0w

@Sampajanna so how is your Pacific?
Still honeymoon time?


----------



## SteveHulk

MvRBE10 said:


> Thats really sheisch damn. When you want it smoothly it never comes. Id you dont care its within a day at your door.


I've been checking FedEx so-called tracking 😔

The package is still stuck in Derby, the FedEx hub in the UK. It now has a red warning triangle attached. There is no delivery date - it just says "pending" 😡

When I checked my credit card statement the payment is still marked pending ie FedEx hasn't taken the payment yet. I paid on Friday morning as soon as they were ready for it.

There now seems little chance it will be delivered even tomorrow. 🤬

Tuesday will be a WEEK since the supplies were shipped. On Eurostar I could have gone to Farad and collected them in under 7 HOURS. I was seriously considering that at the time but I let it go. God knows I should have known better.

In future, when buying from the continent I will ask which shipper will be used. If they say FedEx I will just say no and find something else to buy instead.


----------



## Reactcore (Jun 19, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> I've been checking FedEx so-called tracking 😔
> 
> The package is still stuck in Derby, the FedEx hub in the UK. It now has a red warning triangle attached.



This stincks man.. i feel with you.
But im sure when u have it.. it will make u forget this.. its that good!

Its one thing i like bout buying 2nd hand..
Like my Dave i went from Holland to Germany to get it.. one way 6 hour drive and 6 back.
But worth it. And got a fun listen to his gear in the process too


----------



## Triode User

SteveHulk said:


> I've been checking FedEx so-called tracking 😔
> 
> The package is still stuck in Derby, the FedEx hub in the UK. It now has a red warning triangle attached. There is no delivery date - it just says "pending" 😡
> 
> ...


There is something seriously wrong with the EU. On Friday I had delivered a package with £3k of components from USA ordered the day before and delivered by fedex (which I have been moaning about previously). On the same day, Friday, I had emails from customers in USA who had my cables delivered which had been sent from the uk on wednesday.


----------



## zen87192 (Jun 19, 2022)

Looks like huge Stafffing issues at FedEx. This does not bode well for my Farad delivery either. 🙄 Mine is currently located at Roissy Charles De Gaulle FedEx facility. Hmmmm..... in France.... still...


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 20, 2022)

zen87192 said:


> Looks like huge Stafffing issues at FedEx. This does not bode well for my Farad delivery either. 🙄 Mine is currently located at Roissy Charles De Gaulle FedEx facility. Hmmmm..... in France.... still...


Mine has now apparently moved to the local FedEx sorting facility at Kingsbury. This apparently happened 5 hours ago and the tracking has only now caught up.

They still haven't taken the actual tax payment 😒

Maybe now they will arrive tomorrow but I'm not betting on it.

Yours still need to transit from CDG to the FedEx hub at East Midlands Airport near Derby UK, thence to the appropriate sorting facility (SF), then to a local facility, then onto a van, and only then to your actual door.

That sounds like another 2 or 3 days.


----------



## Powersquat

Triode User said:


> There is something seriously wrong with the EU. On Friday I had delivered a package with £3k of components from USA ordered the day before and delivered by fedex (which I have been moaning about previously). On the same day, Friday, I had emails from customers in USA who had my cables



I very much suspect you're correct, it's an issue with importing goods into theUK from within the EU. Earlier this year I purchased an lps from Linear Tube Audio in the States, I received regularly updated tracking information from Fedex, once it arrived at Stanstead I received a duty/tax invoice via email from Fedex, there was  an attached link to pay the duty which I did immediately and the delivery arrived next day.

by the way Nick, a big thank you, it's 3 weeks since you sent the Storm cables, the upgrade from Stream to Storm was very much a worthwhile investment, I'm one very happy listener. 




Triode User said:


> delivered which had been sent from the uk on wednesday.


----------



## audio_1

Triode User said:


> There is something seriously wrong with the EU. On Friday I had delivered a package with £3k of components from USA ordered the day before and delivered by fedex (which I have been moaning about previously). On the same day, Friday, I had emails from customers in USA who had my cables delivered which had been sent from the uk on wednesday.


There is nothing wrong with the EU. The UK chose Brexit, all this is self inflicted! Madness leaving the customs union and the largest market in the world. I can still get deliveries from the EU next day duty free of course. Deliveries from the UK also arrive here in a few days, just pay Irish instead of UK Vat and a small customs clearance fee. I think Fed-EX are the problem.


----------



## SteveHulk

SteveHulk said:


> Mine has now apparently moved to the local FedEx sorting facility at Kingsbury. This apparently happened 5 hours ago and the tracking has only now caught up.
> 
> They still haven't taken the actual tax payment 😒
> 
> ...


And... they are on the van for delivery today 😀

I just hope now that they won't find some other way to screw it up.

Bizarrely, they still haven't taken the payment for the taxes. It is still pending in my account.


----------



## zen87192 (Jun 20, 2022)

Grrrr... just this minute received my Waybill for Import Taxes... the clickable link in the message doesn't work. Now need to go about it manually...


----------



## SteveHulk

SteveHulk said:


> And... they are on the van for delivery today 😀
> 
> I just hope now that they won't find some other way to screw it up.
> 
> Bizarrely, they still haven't taken the payment for the taxes. It is still pending in my account.


...and they just arrived! (gulp!) 🤯


----------



## alxw0w

SteveHulk said:


> ...and they just arrived! (gulp!) 🤯


Damn I'm jealous 
Plug that baby in and we are waiting for response.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 20, 2022)

zen87192 said:


> Grrrr... just this minute received my Waybill for Import Taxes... the clickable link in the message doesn't work. Now need to go about it manually...


If you end up phoning them do not tap option one for pay invoices. You'll just get booted out and told to do it online 😒 even though the invoice will suggest you can phone to pay.


----------



## zen87192

SteveHulk said:


> ...and they just arrived! (gulp!) 🤯


Please let us all know of any installation tips you come across that are either not mentioned in the instructions or you feel are more convenient to carry out during the process. Most appreciated @SteveHulk.


----------



## MvRBE10

zen87192 said:


> Please let us all know of any installation tips you come across that are either not mentioned in the instructions or you feel are more convenient to carry out during the process. Most appreciated @SteveHulk.


Its all in there, i hope 😁 if so ask did it 15 times now with no issues.


----------



## zen87192 (Jun 20, 2022)

Just checked my FedEx account and see that they have released my parcel for delivery this Wednesday. Looks like they trust me to pay from now onwards.... or maybe turn up at my doorstep and demand payment before handing over the parcel.....🤣


----------



## MvRBE10

zen87192 said:


> Just checked my FedEx account and see that they have released my parcel for delivery this Wednesday. Looks like they trust me to pay from now onwards.... or maybe turn up at my doorstep and demand payment before handing over the parcel.....🤣


They prob keep one lps until you pay up


----------



## Somatic

Cool got the Mscaler today. I think it adds more of the same differences between TT2 and Dave. Sounds more realistic, more 3d like, more emotive, reverb and sounds of the recording space is increased. It’s not night and day but to me it seems worth it. I can see it priced lower but anything that increases my connection to the music is a needed addition. 

I notice slight brightness hear and there. I’m sure it’s from the RF noise. Going to buy a DC power bank and then some Wave cables soon. 

Overall I’m happy with the addition. 

*oh I did notice a wierd bug that I was able to replicate. While using Amazon Unlimited if using “exclusive mode” and I switch tracks it play a half a second reversed snipit of a related audio track before going to new track. I’m running off optical and dual BNC. I pinged chord support about it already.


----------



## MvRBE10

Somatic said:


> Cool got the Mscaler today. I think it adds more of the same differences between TT2 and Dave. Sounds more realistic, more 3d like, more emotive, reverb and sounds of the recording space is increased. It’s not night and day but to me it seems worth it. I can see it priced lower but anything that increases my connection to the music is a needed addition.
> 
> I notice slight brightness hear and there. I’m sure it’s from the RF noise. Going to buy a DC power bank and then some Wave cables soon.
> 
> ...


What did you pay for your scaler. Got mine still for sale if any interested in here!


----------



## Somatic

MvRBE10 said:


> What did you pay for your scaler. Got mine still for sale if any interested in here!


$3700 its like 1 month old.

I think I need to find a new wife. She said she preferred the solo dave vs the mscaler .... hmmmm

Now I'm questioning my ears hahaha


----------



## alxw0w

Somatic said:


> Cool got the Mscaler today. I think it adds more of the same differences between TT2 and Dave. Sounds more realistic, more 3d like, more emotive, reverb and sounds of the recording space is increased. It’s not night and day but to me it seems worth it. I can see it priced lower but anything that increases my connection to the music is a needed addition.
> 
> I notice slight brightness hear and there. I’m sure it’s from the RF noise. Going to buy a DC power bank and then some Wave cables soon.
> 
> ...


You will be happy with wave BNC cables.
To me they are mandatory.


----------



## MvRBE10

Got mine for 3250,- advertised with all garantee on it etc. Black.


----------



## Somatic

alxw0w said:


> You will be happy with wave BNC cables.
> To me they are mandatory.


So is the consensus to go with STORM? Anyone prefer the STREAMS? Both use 20 ferrites each cable. Main difference is different cabling. Heard the STORMs do indeed sound darker. Curious on thoughts ...

Also I find it funny how one says an Mscaler is mandatory for the Dave and then the Wave cables are mandatory as well. I dont mind. I can see this being the case to deal with the RF brightness.


----------



## MvRBE10

No i had the storms sold them last week for 1250,- you had to give me a heads up could have saved you some bucks


----------



## MvRBE10

Dark is better tells you rf is down. Same effect on the lps on the dave gets darker background and wider stage with more texture and musicality… its all the same thing better power more music no sound.


----------



## alxw0w

Somatic said:


> So is the consensus to go with STORM? Anyone prefer the STREAMS? Both use 20 ferrites each cable. Main difference is different cabling. Heard the STORMs do indeed sound darker. Curious on thoughts ...
> 
> Also I find it funny how one says an Mscaler is mandatory for the Dave and then the Wave cables are mandatory as well. I dont mind. I can see this being the case to deal with the RF brightness.


I haven't tried stream so cannot say what's the difference between storm and stream.
But many times @Triode User mentioned that storms are darker. 
So it seems like they block more RF noise so are fundamentally better.

I see why some people would prefer 'brighter' streams as their system is probably dark and they want to counterbalance for that.
But for me it's wrong approach as you add abberations instead changing dark headphones/speakers.


----------



## MvRBE10

If you want a brighter or more mid highs try another amp or speaker system but keep the digital path as dark as possible. Just changed my amps and musicality is out of the roof.

Listened to the new avantgarde trio,s gen 5 that system sets you thinking about musicality on avm amps… mannnn


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> $3700 its like 1 month old.
> 
> I think I need to find a new wife. She said she preferred the solo dave vs the mscaler .... hmmmm
> 
> Now I'm questioning my ears hahaha


😯 I hope your wife is not a reader here...


----------



## MvRBE10

Last few month i also let my wife listen in as reference for some reason there hearing is much more sensitive for bad highs or clothering i noticed. She sets me straight back in my chair for relistening and focus on what matters. We tend to get stuck in our eurofia. Just like anything else we do, cars boats etc…


----------



## alxw0w

MvRBE10 said:


> If you want a brighter or more mid highs try another amp or speaker system but keep the digital path as dark as possible. Just changed my amps and musicality is out of the roof.
> 
> Listened to the new avantgarde trio,s gen 5 that system sets you thinking about musicality on avm amps… mannnn


Are those pink faun d class amplifiers?
If yes are they based on purifi? Hypex? Or something else?


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> So is the consensus to go with STORM? Anyone prefer the STREAMS? Both use 20 ferrites each cable. Main difference is different cabling. Heard the STORMs do indeed sound darker. Curious on thoughts ...
> 
> Also I find it funny how one says an Mscaler is mandatory for the Dave and then the Wave cables are mandatory as well. I dont mind. I can see this being the case to deal with the RF brightness.


I love darker sound.

I haven't installed the Farads yet but even with my present setup the Patricia Barber "Let it rain" on the album Modern Cool is just mad sultry.

When I added the Wave Storm and the Innuos Phoenix USB reclocker each time the sq on that track jumped.

Now she's singing just for me 😳 and the definition, detail, and timbre of the instrumentation is off the wall.

The next step I think will be the Abyss Phi...


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 20, 2022)

Kirklandia said:


> A little story about FedEx. [...] I later called FedEx to ask what happened to the Dave and they said it was sent to scrap and would not be resold.


😞😭 All it needed was to be sent to Chord - FedEx could do that at cost - to have a new lid fitted. Chord would make sure it was like new.

This is not a "little" story. It's a full-blown horror screenplay.

I actually feel sick.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jun 20, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> Are those pink faun d class amplifiers?
> If yes are they based on purifi? Hypex? Or something else?


Yes the D-power 180 based on Hypex UcD with class a inputs, freaking musical these amps. It has absolutely not the fingerprint class d mid and high sound. Pink does not use the opamp from that module but there own class A J-fet non-feed back and already amplifies 75% before entering the class D module. Completely different approach.

Rotated them with few other amps this week. Did not now class d could be this good. And the block is one big lps with the best of the best components.


----------



## Lgn3 (Jun 20, 2022)

Deleted


----------



## Reactcore

Somatic said:


> Cool got the Mscaler today.



Nice! 👍 update your bio!

I have the same.. when i skip or play after pause to different bitrate.  HMS plays a sec of previous track.  Like it keeps stored in a buffer
Might be F2K..

Be sure to try a optical link too b4 jumping on Waves😉


----------



## Somatic

Reactcore said:


> Nice! 👍 update your bio!
> 
> I have the same.. when i skip or play after pause to different bitrate.  HMS plays a sec of previous track.  Like it keeps stored in a buffer
> Might be F2K..
> ...


So optical in on the Mscaler and Optical out to Dave? Wouldnt this lower the upsampling threshold? Thanks.


----------



## Reactcore

Somatic said:


> So optical in on the Mscaler and Optical out to Dave? Wouldnt this lower the upsampling threshold? Thanks.


Nope.. just go toslink in HMS.. and use Opto-DX on DBNC out.. it takes dual 384k.

Someone also used optical CCTV HD extenders with success on a HMS-Qutest

I myself will try to make a more simple version with only 850/600 nM light emitter, receivers


----------



## audio_1

MvRBE10 said:


> Yes the D-power 180 based on Hypex UcD with class a inputs, freaking musical these amps. It has absolutely not the fingerprint class d mid and high sound. Pink does not use the opamp from that module but there own class A J-fet non-feed back and already amplifies 75% before entering the class D module. Completely different approach.
> 
> Rotated them with few other amps this week. Did not now class d could be this good. And the block is one big lps with the best of the best components.


Did you use the mScaler with the class D-power amps? If you did, perhaps that is why you preferred solo Dave. I think it was mentioned here that class D amps generally don't switch fast enough to reproduce transients properly.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jun 20, 2022)

No i first tried my own usher amp without scaler than two spectral amps the 250 and 260 without the scaler. These amps are really fast and detailed. Up to 2 mhz i believe, absurd but ok. Last 2 days after warming up the d amps i listen to the class d. So to answer with the other three amps i listened with and without the scaler. Still got the scaler so will test it again tomorrow its 12 at night here.. you mention transients but thats almost seems more real on this amp than the others. Reminds me a bit of the audio gd amps.


----------



## BassicScience

audio_1 said:


> Did you use the mScaler with the class D-power amps? If you did, perhaps that is why you preferred solo Dave. I think it was mentioned here that *class D amps generally don't switch fast enough to reproduce transients properly.*


Complete nonsense.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 20, 2022)

So I went through the steps to replace the DAVE power supply






That was just a picture in case I would never see it again except as a brick 😁





Be aware that the screw indicated in yellow is not visible until all 8 blues are removed and the porthole glass with its ring is removed. 





Lid off





And DAVE psu removed





Farad control card inserted and everything plugged up





Lid back on and everything buttoned up





Plugged into the mains, powered on, and it's still alive! 😅

Everything went smooth and by the numbers.

Now to install it in the Cave and see what happens...

(to be continued)


----------



## MvRBE10

Keep us posted, obi wan


----------



## zen87192

Excellent @SteveHulk. Thanks for the confirmation of a smooth transition from one power supply to the other. I await your thoughts of sound with baited breath. One question, will it be OK to stack the power supplies like you have or best spacing them?


----------



## MvRBE10

zen87192 said:


> Excellent @SteveHulk. Thanks for the confirmation of a smooth transition from one power supply to the other. I await your thoughts of sound with baited breath. One question, will it be OK to stack the power supplies like you have or best spacing them?


I did not notice a difference so its mere up to whats convieniant for you.


----------



## chesebert

SteveHulk said:


> So I went through the steps to replace the DAVE power supply
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s not great workmanship on the control board - I would be worried.


----------



## jlbrach

SteveHulk said:


> I love darker sound.
> 
> I haven't installed the Farads yet but even with my present setup the Patricia Barber "Let it rain" on the album Modern Cool is just mad sultry.
> 
> ...


the phoenix is a fabulous product


----------



## jlbrach

SteveHulk said:


> So I went through the steps to replace the DAVE power supply
> 
> 
> 
> ...


good lord, no way in a million years I would attempt that lol


----------



## sm60 (Jun 20, 2022)

Somatic said:


> $3700 its like 1 month old.
> 
> I think I need to find a new wife. She said she preferred the solo dave vs the mscaler .... hmmmm
> 
> Now I'm questioning my ears hahaha


All upscaling is a compromise. You win some and you lose some. Think of a visual analogy. Let’s say you have an old DVD of a movie you love and it’s not out on Blu ray. Ok your choices are play it back with upscaling on your fancy 4K OLED, which is forced to upconvert NTSC (or PAL) 480 interlaced signal  to a full 4K television. There’s no magic here. The information is not there. It guesses via some interpolation algorithm. Usually includes artifacts. Or you can just watch it on an old CRT monitor made for NTSC. You’d be surprised how much more enjoyable it can be to not screw up the original image by upsampling. Yes it won’t look as sharp. But that’s fake sharpness. It’s not in the original.

Ditto for audio upsampling. You take a lowly 16 bit signal and do DSD 512 upsampling. If course it’s not a native DSD 512 recording. It’s smoke and mirrors. Often you introduce artifacts.

Your wife has far better high frequency hearing  than you do (it’s biology, not much you can do, pal). My wife certainly hears the highs far better than I can. I’m on the right side of 60! I’ve probably got little hearing above 15 kHz. I’m very careful with volumes. I never listen above 80 dB or so. That’s like putting 5 watts into my Quads. If you heard a lot of heavy metal as a high school kid or went to a lot of rock concerts, with 110 dB volumes, you have probably no high frequency hearing above 10 kHz. Upsampling is pointless in that case.

As I’d like to say, the easiest way to improve most moving coil loudspeakers is to disconnect the piercing squealing metallic tweeter. Ditto for TVs. Turn down that damn sharpness control.


----------



## sm60

SteveHulk said:


> So I went through the steps to replace the DAVE power supply
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, humans have an insatiable desire to tweak. Can’t leave things the way they were designed. 😀


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jun 21, 2022)

sm60 said:


> All upscaling is a compromise. You win some and you lose some. Think of a visual analogy. Let’s say you have an old DVD of a movie you love and it’s not out on Blu ray. Ok your choices are play it back with upscaling on your fancy 4K OLED, which is forced to upconvert NTSC (or PAL) 480 interlaced signal  to a full 4K television. There’s no magic here. The information is not there. It guesses via some interpolation algorithm. Usually includes artifacts. Or you can just watch it on an old CRT monitor made for NTSC. You’d be surprised how much more enjoyable it can be to not screw up the original image by upsampling. Yes it won’t look as sharp. But that’s fake sharpness. It’s not in the original.
> 
> Ditto for audio upsampling. You take a lowly 16 bit signal and do DSD 512 upsampling. If course it’s not a native DSD 512 recording. It’s smoke and mirrors. Often you introduce artifacts.
> 
> ...


I hear what you are saying.  But 1080p upsampled to 4K looks better than straight 1080p in my opinion.  CD quality streams are like 1080p being upsampled, and sound better in my opinion.  I haven't tried upsampling many mp3s, which I would see as maybe an old 640p DVD movie, so maybe you are right in that regard (I'm not sure).  But, I guess it is true that each person likes different things and hears things differently so only they can determine what sounds better 🤷‍♂️


----------



## chesebert (Jun 21, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> I hear what you are saying.  But 1080p upsampled to 4K looks better than straight 1080p in my opinion.  CD quality streams are like 1080p being upsampled, and sound better in my opinion.  I haven't tried upsampling many mp3s, which I would see as maybe an old 640p DVD movie, so maybe you are right in that regard (I'm not sure).  But, I guess it is true that each person likes different things and hears things differently so only they can determine what sounds better 🤷‍♂️


That’s not how I remember upsampling works as upsampling does not change the actual information (ie its zero padded between samples).

M scaler both upsamples and interprets the data to create additional data <- these are new data points but it’s just more math.


----------



## SteveHulk

sm60 said:


> Wow, humans have an insatiable desire to tweak. Can’t leave things the way they were designed. 😀


One of the reasons I went for this was my experience with the pair of Musical Fidelity A370 mk II amps that are in my main system.

One day I had the power supplies replaced. The guy who did the work was an employee of MF who worked there on the A370.

All the years prior to this upgrade I thought they were good amps. After this upgrade it was like I'd been driving a car for years with the handbrake on and didn't know it. And with the handbrake off the amps were just awesome. Earthquake bass. 

It opened my eyes to the importance of power supplies and to just how severe a haircut they can suffer to bring a device to market at a price point.


----------



## SteveHulk

zen87192 said:


> Excellent @SteveHulk. Thanks for the confirmation of a smooth transition from one power supply to the other. I await your thoughts of sound with baited breath. One question, will it be OK to stack the power supplies like you have or best spacing them?


I guess that's one thing I'll find out. Space is at something of a premium.

My cave system started as just the DAVE with a computer plugged in one end and headphones plugged in at the other. The present significantly more complicated system exists in more or less the same space.

Beginning to think about a new stand. The present stand I designed and had made by Glass Domain near Birmingham.


----------



## audio_1

BassicScience said:


> audio_1 said:
> 
> 
> > Did you use the mScaler with the class D-power amps? If you did, perhaps that is why you preferred solo Dave. I think it was mentioned here that *class D amps generally don't switch fast enough to reproduce transients properly.*
> ...


A post from Rob Watts on "Watts Up...?" forum:

[IMG alt="Rob Watts"]https://cdn.head-fi.org/avatars/m/394/394072.jpg?1397540867[/IMG]
Rob Watts​Member of the Trade: Chord Electronics​JoinedApr 1, 2014Posts2,843Likes9,754


jazz said:


> Are Class D amps really prone to high noise floor modulation – compared to conventional amps?


Absolutely - particularly the ones without any global feedback.


My biggest worry with switching amplifiers is the timing of transients issue. The more I work on timing issues, the more I find that the tiniest timing error will have substantial SQ implications. Class D creates subjectively very large timing of transients problems, due to switching activity.

Rob


----------



## audio_1

chesebert said:


> That’s not great workmanship on the control board - I would be worried.


I was very impressed with the control board, especially the capacitors, and the larger cross sectional wire on the ground connection. The Molex connector also appears to have gold plated pins. The glue around the ends of the umbilical cables is just for extra security.


----------



## chesebert

audio_1 said:


> I was very impressed with the control board, especially the capacitors, and the larger cross sectional wire on the ground connection. The Molex connector also appears to have gold plated pins. The glue around the ends of the umbilical cables is just for extra security.


I was referring to build skills on that specific board pictured earlier - like soldering.


----------



## alxw0w

Yup soldering on the output wires looks... meh
Glue is fine, it's securing cables from moving.


----------



## chesebert

SteveHulk said:


> So I went through the steps to replace the DAVE power supply
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Also one of you caps looks like it’s going to blow up soon. Good luck.


----------



## Triode User

chesebert said:


> Also one of you caps looks like it’s going to blow up soon. Good luck.


Hmmn, I see what you mean.


----------



## MvRBE10

audio_1 said:


> A post from Rob Watts on "Watts Up...?" forum:
> 
> [IMG alt="Rob Watts"]https://cdn.head-fi.org/avatars/m/394/394072.jpg?1397540867[/IMG]
> Rob Watts​Member of the Trade: Chord Electronics​JoinedApr 1, 2014Posts2,843Likes9,754
> ...


It all can be but my ears tell me otherwise. That of course allone says nothing. We will see in future what will pass that will better these amps. For now it just sounds incredible more musical. And thats my no. 1 goal.  Not the best but the more engaging and musical sound that pulls you in instead of analyzing the music all the time. I want old stuff to sound great i want 44/16 no remasters to sound great. I want voices and instruments be as a whole. Aahh everybody has different goals that allow different apraoches.


----------



## Reactcore (Jun 21, 2022)

Triode User said:


> Hmmn, I see what you mean.


@SteveHulk
Hm thats indeed bad!
This cap had some wrong voltage🧐 it should be replaced. Did you buy Dave new?

Also the torx screws on the pcb dont seem original.. like its tempered with. Mine has pozidriv (cross)  screws..


----------



## SteveHulk

Reactcore said:


> @SteveHulk
> Hm thats indeed bad!
> This cap had some wrong voltage🧐 it should be replaced. Did you buy Dave new?
> 
> Also the torx screws on the pcb dont seem original.. like its tempered with. Mine has pozidriv (cross)  screws..


I bought the DAVE new, but quite a long time ago now.

The state of that cap does concern me as well. 

I will contact Chord with this picture and ask for their opinion.


----------



## MvRBE10

SteveHulk said:


> I bought the DAVE new, but quite a long time ago now.
> 
> The state of that cap does concern me as well.
> 
> I will contact Chord with this picture and ask for their opinion.


How does it sound? It worked the last few weeks so it will the upcoming.


----------



## BassicScience

audio_1 said:


> A post from Rob Watts on "Watts Up...?" forum:
> 
> [IMG alt="Rob Watts"]https://cdn.head-fi.org/avatars/m/394/394072.jpg?1397540867[/IMG]
> Rob Watts​Member of the Trade: Chord Electronics​JoinedApr 1, 2014Posts2,843Likes9,754
> ...


The current state-of-the-art in Class D amp modules are Hypex and Purifi. Both of those DO use global feedback. The fact that he throws in the word "subjectively" is interesting. I'd like to see the theory/math behind his statement. But if you want to believe that everything Mr. Watts claims he hears reflects reality, that is certainly your choice. Or you can actually listen for yourself and arrive at your own conclusions.

This is OT, so I'm not going to post any further on it here.


----------



## SteveHulk

MvRBE10 said:


> How does it sound? It worked the last few weeks so it will the upcoming.


I have not installed it to my system yet. I will do that today.

Everything was a bit late last night and I did not want to make any mistakes.


----------



## MvRBE10

SteveHulk said:


> I have not installed it to my system yet. I will do that today.
> 
> Everything was a bit late last night and I did not want to make any mistakes.


Owwww first fedex… now 😎


----------



## 801evan

BassicScience said:


> The current state-of-the-art in Class D amp modules are Hypex and Purifi. Both of those DO use global feedback. The fact that he throws in the word "subjectively" is interesting. I'd like to see the theory/math behind his statement. But if you want to believe that everything Mr. Watts claims he hears reflects reality, that is certainly your choice. Or you can actually listen for yourself and arrive at your own conclusions.
> 
> This is OT, so I'm not going to post any further on it here.


Funny coz RW's claims are certainly wayyy more accurate than yours and you said this.


----------



## Somatic

chesebert said:


> That’s not great workmanship on the control board - I would be worried.


The original or the farad board?


----------



## Somatic

SteveHulk said:


> I guess that's one thing I'll find out. Space is at something of a premium.
> 
> My cave system started as just the DAVE with a computer plugged in one end and headphones plugged in at the other. The present significantly more complicated system exists in more or less the same space.
> 
> Beginning to think about a new stand. The present stand I designed and had made by Glass Domain near Birmingham.


Pic of Cave?


----------



## 801evan (Jun 21, 2022)

Workmanship is pretty standard for thick gauge and hand soldered to pcb. Nothing to worry about until it actually doesn't operate.


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> Pic of Cave?


----------



## zen87192

I wish I had space for a ManCave. Maybe when both kids have left I could convince the Wife to grant me one of their bedrooms. In the meantime all I have is a ManCupboard on wheels!


----------



## Reactcore

zen87192 said:


> I wish I had space for a ManCave. Maybe when both kids have left I could convince the Wife to grant me one of their bedrooms. In the meantime all I have is a ManCupboard on wheels!


What a luxury.. i have it squeezed in here..😄


----------



## Somatic

Reactcore said:


> What a luxury.. i have it squeezed in here..😄


Poor Dave in exile. 

Is that in your living room? Luckily the Dave is small.


----------



## 801evan

That power strip is either the stuff of nightmares or very futuristic.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 21, 2022)

801evan said:


> That power strip is either the stuff of nightmares or very futuristic.


I'm going to go with the "stuff of nightmares" 😱

Talk about a cable salad! It even comes in its own bowl! 😀

@Reactcore I'm just pulling your leg. Please don't take me seriously in any way 🙂


----------



## Somatic

SteveHulk said:


> I'm going to go with the "stuff of nightmares" 😱
> 
> Talk about a cable salad! It even comes in its own bowl! 😀
> 
> @Reactcore I'm just pulling your leg. Please don't take me seriously in any way 🙂


@SteveHulk curious when you add the farad3 if you prefer stock vs Mscaler Dave. Also are you adding Farad3 to the Mscaler and Dave? So 4 power supplies or 3? Thanks.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 21, 2022)

Instead of installing my DAVE and enjoying music I've been locking horns with a shipping company to try to sort out the mess that's been created with the valves that I'm sending back to Italy.

This time it's bloody UPS 🤬

I sent them last Thursday. I have neither heard anything nor seen anything in the tracking to have made me aware that something was wrong. They have been languishing in a London warehouse since Friday because some customs information was needed.

I only became aware of this because Mail Boxes Etc (the despatcher) sent me an email saying there was a problem and asking me if UPS had contacted me.

This email went into my spam folder and I only saw it because I was checking in case any emails from Chord relating to that sad-looking cap in my DAVE had gone to junk.

And yes, Gentle Reader, that's how I keep this post OT here 😁😂

I contacted UPS by phone and, of course, I again had to fight the system to avoid getting booted out of the call. The agent informed me that she saw a problem. Only the warehouse can deal with it and I can't call them, they have to call me.

I am so tired of this.

Brexit is totally responsible for this mess and I hope the people who foisted it upon us for their own selfish ends burn in Hell.


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> @SteveHulk curious when you add the farad3 if you prefer stock vs Mscaler Dave. Also are you adding Farad3 to the Mscaler and Dave? So 4 power supplies or 3? Thanks.


I haven't even installed it yet (see above) 😔

I do not have a Farad3 for the m scaler yet, just the offering from McRU. I'll almost certainly get a Farad3 for that in the near future even if only for cosmetic reasons 🙂


----------



## Somatic

Ards said:


> After a week of delay, thanks to the UK Queen's Jubilee double bank-holiday and then FedEx's ridiculously manual duties payment system, I finally received my Farad3 upgrade kit.  I installed this yesterday and left it to warm up overnight, then spent this afternoon critically evaluating using a selection of tracks that I know extremely well from years of repeated listening.
> 
> Three hours later, and my face aching from the three hour grin, my conclusion is this:
> 
> ...


Is this with solo Dave or with Mscaler? Do you still incorporate the Mscaler in your chain?


----------



## Somatic

zen87192 said:


> My Farad Super3 Dave Upgrade should be delivered sometime next week. Really looking forward to installing it now and listening to the difference.
> Ards... you got me 'pumped' now! This I'm excited about. Many thanks @Ards for your initial review of the Farad Super3 Upgrade.


Checking to see if you had a chance to try out the Farad3. Wondering if it lives to all the hype.


----------



## zen87192

Somatic said:


> Checking to see if you had a chance to try out the Farad3. Wondering if it lives to all the hype.


Arriving tomorrow, Wednesday 22nd..... I hope. All Taxes paid so I'm all 'good to go'. Whether or not FedEx is.... is another story. I'm on the delivery list for tomorrow with them so..... yeah..... hmmmmm..🤔


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 21, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> What a luxury.. i have it squeezed in here..😄


If you replace those shelves with slightly thicker black marble it'll look great and you'll probably get a nice bump in sq as well.

If, unlike me, you are not easy with going to a monumental mason 😁 you can go to a decent kitchen supplier who will also cut for you a piece of the exact size and polish it too.

That's where I got the marble slab under my Cave system stand.


----------



## SteveHulk

SteveHulk said:


> I bought the DAVE new, but quite a long time ago now.
> 
> The state of that cap does concern me as well.
> 
> I will contact Chord with this picture and ask for their opinion.


I contacted Chord. They too do not like the look of that cap. 

They want me to send the DAVE in to be checked. 

I'm not particularly exercised about it right now because it seems to be associated with the headphone stage and I don't care about that. 

Because I'm so fed up with shippers and there's a train strike all week in this country I'll take it down there myself next week and hand it over.

Of course that will mean having to put the original power supply back in... 🙄


----------



## MvRBE10

Thats a five mon job now😳


----------



## zen87192 (Jun 21, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> I contacted Chord. They too do not like the look of that cap.
> 
> They want me to send the DAVE in to be checked.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear of the 'Cap' issue. Great that Chord have come back to you quickly and have offered to look at it for you. Hopefully they will make this a fast turnaround job. Even perhaps whilst you are in the area the same day? So.... it may be left to me to review if I have mine delivered tomorrow to install and report upon 😱
I somehow guess that this may not be the case with FedEx. I paid my taxes immediately which was confirmed on the FedEx site but I did not receive an email receipt as they stated afterwards. I have a screenshot of the FedEx payment settlement/confirmation and my Bank account shows the payment as well. So at least I can officially prove the bill is settled. We can only wait and see. I'm excited though! 🤪


----------



## Somatic

SteveHulk said:


> I contacted Chord. They too do not like the look of that cap.
> 
> They want me to send the DAVE in to be checked.
> 
> ...


Planning to test the Farad3 before sending in repairs? Or you got to leave it stock so you don’t void warranty?

Also I’m not versed in PCBs etc. how can you tell that the cap is going bad from pictures


----------



## zen87192

Somatic said:


> Also I’m not versed in PCBs etc. how can you tell that the cap is going bad from pictures


I believe it looks like it's bulging/ballooning unless I'm looking at something completely different.


----------



## miketlse

Somatic said:


> Sorry. Is Triode User the creator Nick Bacon? Learning the community thanks. I’ll PM.


yes


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> Planning to test the Farad3 before sending in repairs? Or you got to leave it stock so you don’t void warranty?
> 
> Also I’m not versed in PCBs etc. how can you tell that the cap is going bad from pictures


I will shortly install the DAVE to my system. Then I'll find out about the supplies. The c*#p today just left me a little flat right now.

My DAVE is long out of warranty! I was an early adopter.

The top of the single cap right beside the headphone output is bulging. That is a sign it is on its last legs.


----------



## Somatic

801evan said:


> Exactly. There's so much fixation of DAC and amps and this persistence that they must be evaluated by itself and should be able to hold up. Exactly why I got a lot of heat saying the Dave can drive superbly drive the Susvara. Once you get out of the 'its all the same 0s and 1s mindset' and improve your transport and signal chain and also improve ac mains, the Dave is all you need...and this applies to any DAC that cost below or above it.


What do you use to clean the AC mains? Seems like you aren’t using Farad3 or DC4. Just curious what your setup looks like.


----------



## Triode User

zen87192 said:


> I believe it looks like it's bulging/ballooning unless I'm looking at something completely different.


Your are correct. The manufacturers stamp in those patterns in the top of the capacitors as weak link so if there is a build up of internal pressure the cap will bulge and release pressure there rather than just explode. I have witnessed a few capacitors ‘relieving pressure’ and it can be quite dramatic!


----------



## miketlse

SteveHulk said:


> I will shortly install the DAVE to my system. Then I'll find out about the supplies. The c*#p today just left me a little flat right now.
> 
> My DAVE is long out of warranty! I was an early adopter.
> 
> The top of the single cap right beside the headphone output is bulging. That is a sign it is on its last legs.


Yes that cap is a sign that something needs to be dealt with.
However don't feel like you are in disaster mode. The head-fi threads can make it feel like disaster mode every day.


----------



## chesebert

Just doing thankless work helping people avoid disasters on Headfi - both sonically and financially


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 22, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> So I went through the steps to replace the DAVE power supply
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just one thing to be aware: it really does take the -15V supply quite a lot longer to start than the +5V and the +15V supplies.

Be prepared to wait the thick end of a minute for it to catch up.

This is now the latest incarnation of the Cave system.


----------



## SteveHulk

I'm going to let it play a couple of hours of organ music to itself then I'll put my listening hat on 🙂


----------



## zen87192

SteveHulk said:


> Just one thing to be aware: it really does take the -15V supply quite a lot longer to start than the +5V and the +15V supplies.
> 
> Be prepared to wait the thick end of a minute for it to catch up.
> 
> This is now the latest incarnation of the Cave system.


I'm presuming that's due to the new module board making totally sure over this minute long period that the +5V and +15V are totally stable before introducing the -15V. Good to hear and a good failsafe system. I'm staying up tonight awaiting a little snippet of your listening experience if you get round to doing it. You must be mentally exhausted after what you've experienced from delivery, installation to Capacitor issue. God speed with your journey.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 21, 2022)

zen87192 said:


> I'm presuming that's due to the new module board making totally sure over this minute long period that the +5V and +15V are totally stable before introducing the -15V.


I actually think it is the other way round. The control board waits until all three supplies are ready and stable before it routes power to the DAVE board.

The -15V supply just takes its own extra time and everything else has to wait for it.

The dance of the three leds while this is going on is actually quite sweet 🤗 It is really rather satisfying to see the DAVE kick on at the end of it all. 

Farad did mention this somewhere, but I forget where.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jun 21, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> I'm going to let it play a couple of hours of organ music to itself then I'll put my listening hat on 🙂


Not nescessary just listen, mattijs has these lps for a week on the test bench so just rock and roll. After a full week i noticed a slight smootiness but not much. I tested four versions and the last one is the most revealing. Als with extra star ground plaines for evert voltage.


----------



## zen87192

SteveHulk said:


> I actually think it is the other way round. The control board waits until all three supplies are ready and stable before it routes power to the DAVE board.
> 
> The -15V supply just takes its own extra time and everything else has to wait for it.
> 
> ...


Ahhh.. got it. That makes sense. I'm going to download the installation instructions now in preparation for my install. I hope I get some sleep tonight as I can't install blurry eyed.


----------



## SteveHulk

MvRBE10 said:


> Not nescessary just listen, mattijs has these lps for a week on the test bench so just rock and roll. After a full week i noticed a slight smootiness but not much. I tested four versions and the last one is the most revealing. Als with extra star ground plaines for evert voltage.


I think you forget that valves need to warm up properly and that really does take a long time.


----------



## MvRBE10

SteveHulk said:


> I think you forget that valves need to warm up properly and that really does take a long time.


Aahh you got an amp behind it. Those were not party lights…


----------



## Reactcore

SteveHulk said:


> I'm going to go with the "stuff of nightmares" 😱
> 
> Talk about a cable salad! It even comes in its own bowl! 😀
> 
> @Reactcore I'm just pulling your leg. Please don't take me seriously in any way 🙂



No mind🙃  that bowl is just unused cable storage with a light and phonecharger.

The only + my rig is aside my lazy couch for headphone use..

I might go after a nice display stand later


----------



## muski (Jun 21, 2022)

801evan said:


> Yea. You get what you pay for still so you can try more expensive filters like the one above too.
> 
> Also re-read about the opto dx setup and it has two culprits.
> 1. Powerbank
> ...


I use a pair of Uptone LPS-1.2 power supplies with the Opto-DX (set at 12v). I power the T side LPS-1.2 with a decent 7v SGC LPS I had lying around, and the R side one is fed by a PowerAdd. Much to my surprise I can hear a difference between what power supply I feed my power supply with 

Besides more boxes is better, right?

muski

P.S. I can get my DAVE about 8 feet away from the M Scaler...


----------



## 801evan

muski said:


> I use a pair of Uptone LPS-1.2 power supplies with the Opto-DX (set at 12v). I power the T side LPS-1.2 with a decent 7v SGC LPS I had lying around, and the R side one is fed by a PowerAdd. Much to my surprise I can hear a difference between what power supply I feed my power supply with
> 
> Besides more boxes is better, right?
> 
> ...


Did u try to swap the psu on the T and R end? I think better power on the R is ideal.  You will need a good psu on both ends.  Having a powerbank on the one end will cancel some of the quality you got going on the LPS.

That 7v LPS to power the lps 1.2 sure has a lot of juice. You need 36w or something minimum for the lps 1.2


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 21, 2022)

OK... First debrief on the Farad mod.

I'll make it quick because its time for bed.

The handbrake has been taken off the DAVE. 

I've been melting my brain for the past few hours. 

The bass is awesome. Fast, articulate, textured, tuneful, and it goes down for ever.

Dynamic range is colossal. As the music calls for it, slam and silence can follow each other immediately. The sound is agile and powerful.

The sound is totally clean. High volume does not give ringing in the ears.

All you guys who are getting ready to do this will love it.

More in the next few days...

Good night 🙂


----------



## muski

Triode User said:


> I would say just listen to your Dave for a while, weeks or months. Get to know and love it and perhaps try HQP with its time limited trial and also borrow an Mscaler from your dealer. You might even be able to borrow an SRC.DX as well.
> 
> Try optical into your Dave and try other inputs. I much prefer bnc to optical input into Dave (using the SRC.DX to convert the usb output from my streamer) but I know that many say they prefer the optical. In my view it is a YMMV thing so you need to play for a while and many of these things are best tried for weeks at a time rather than trying to make snap judgements going back and forth.
> 
> Also, do not underestimate the impact of your player software on the sound quality. Try a few different ones if it is possible. I have settled on Squeeze server and Squeezelite player having tried Roon and a few others


Great post. I'm also a Squeezelite fan (opticalRendu).

In addition to HQP, you might listen to a few upsampled PGGB files. It'll give you a nice sense of what M Scaler does. It sounds esp nice through SRC-DX with dual BNCs.


----------



## muski

Triode User said:


> Optical ethernet was not sufficient in my case. I do use optical ethernet but a PhoenixNET between my final switch and streamer has helped enormously.
> 
> Yes Squeezelite player with Roon does help but even more so is abandoning Roon altogether! I use Squeeze (LMS) server with Squeezelite as the player.


At the suggestion of Barrows @ Sonore, on the "dirty" side of my PhoenixNet I have my router connected, and on the clean side, I connect my SonicTransporter server and Fiber Media Converter (which feeds an opticalRendu). A nice improvement.


----------



## muski

alxw0w said:


> Definitely one of the steps that you should do when trying to get maximum SQ from your streaming playback is not using Roon.
> 
> Just one simple change to LMS and it's a really big step in SQ.


Agree.

I recently discovered the Material Skin plugin for LMS. It's not run, but it's a huge UI/UX improvement (with Dark Mode, too).


----------



## muski

SteveHulk said:


> Lid off


Where did you install the Marmite?
I think I see a jar in the top corner of photo #2
Presumably it makes the sound darker.
Personally, I prefer Bovril—darker and beefier 

Cheers,
muski

P.S. Seriously, a very helpful post. Thanks!


----------



## muski

801evan said:


> Did u try to swap the psu on the T and R end? I think better power on the R is ideal.  You will need a good psu on both ends.  Having a powerbank on the one end will cancel some of the quality you got going on the LPS.
> 
> That 7v LPS to power the lps 1.2 sure has a lot of juice. You need 36w or something minimum for the lps 1.2


I tried a PowerAdd feeding the LPS-1.2 on the T side and didn't like it. But I'll try the 7v feeding the LPS-1.2 on the R side. Nice idea.


----------



## sm60

muski said:


> I tried a PowerAdd feeding the LPS-1.2 on the T side and didn't like it. But I'll try the 7v feeding the LPS-1.2 on the R side. Nice idea.


Folks,

I don’t mean to rain on your parade, but for all you DYI modders, you do realize Chord has infinitely more design experience and measurement chutzpah than any of us here? I mean, I do get you’re all having such fun here, and whom am I to question that? Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is the American mantra. But, aren’t there more interesting mods you could explore, like room equalization or headphone equalization or better speakers or headphones etc. I have a Tesla S, and the last thing I want to do is muck about with its battery circuitry. I imagine Tesla has spent gazillions researching the best battery technology. It’s crazy to think I’m better at this than Tesla would be given all their resources.


----------



## 801evan

sm60 said:


> Folks,
> 
> I don’t mean to rain on your parade, but for all you DYI modders, you do realize Chord has infinitely more design experience and measurement chutzpah than any of us here? I mean, I do get you’re all having such fun here, and whom am I to question that? Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is the American mantra. But, aren’t there more interesting mods you could explore, like room equalization or headphone equalization or better speakers or headphones etc. I have a Tesla S, and the last thing I want to do is muck about with its battery circuitry. I imagine Tesla has spent gazillions researching the best battery technology. It’s crazy to think I’m better at this than Tesla would be given all their resources.


Sounds like you haven't tried it.


----------



## muski (Jun 22, 2022)

sm60 said:


> Folks,
> 
> I don’t mean to rain on your parade, but for all you DYI modders, you do realize Chord has infinitely more design experience and measurement chutzpah than any of us here? I mean, I do get you’re all having such fun here, and whom am I to question that? Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is the American mantra. But, aren’t there more interesting mods you could explore, like room equalization or headphone equalization or better speakers or headphones etc. I have a Tesla S, and the last thing I want to do is muck about with its battery circuitry. I imagine Tesla has spent gazillions researching the best battery technology. It’s crazy to think I’m better at this than Tesla would be given all their resources.


Umm, my post was about power supplies for an Opto-DX? It's made by Audiowise?

Heard there’s a heatwave up your way. Try turning up your AC—it’s a good antirantative.

In the meantime there’s that ever so handy “Ignore” button…


----------



## 801evan

muski said:


> I tried a PowerAdd feeding the LPS-1.2 on the T side and didn't like it. But I'll try the 7v feeding the LPS-1.2 on the R side. Nice idea.


I have a different setup but let's see if it aligns with your experience. Better power on the upstream brings more extension and smoothness. Better power on the downstream brings in more dynamics, micro contrast and liveliness. If I only have one good psu, I would power the T side. Doing it the other way can be energetic but fatiguing too. The thing with powerbanks is it's not fast enough to render the first strike properly and will have to rely on a combination of factors to let transients emulate that first strike.


----------



## muski

801evan said:


> The thing with powerbanks is it's not fast enough to render the first strike properly and will have to rely on a combination of factors to let transients emulate that first strike.


That's what I was hearing when I used to feed the Opto-DX directly from the PowerAdd. I thought the Uptone UltraCap LPS-1.2 would be much faster (it's a bank of capacitors, I guess). Which is why I added it between the PowerAdd and Opto-DX R. Sounded better to my ears...


----------



## 801evan

muski said:


> That's what I was hearing when I used to feed the Opto-DX directly from the PowerAdd. I thought the Uptone UltraCap LPS-1.2 would be much faster (it's a bank of capacitors, I guess). Which is why I added it between the PowerAdd and Opto-DX R. Sounded better to my ears...


I honestly find ifi elite much better than the lps 1.2 and the hdplex powering the lps 1.2. I was hoping the lps 1.2 and the literature that came with it would put an end to finding the need for better power. Like, you would only be getting something better because you need more than 1a. I had that whole setup with my Hugo 2 and even doing toslink and I was still searching for better for my ears. A good CDT to Hugo 2 (and Dave) just blew everything else away.


----------



## 801evan (Jun 22, 2022)

801evan said:


> I honestly find ifi elite much better than the lps 1.2 and the hdplex powering the lps 1.2. I was hoping the lps 1.2 and the literature that came with it would put an end to finding the need for better power. Like, you would only be getting something better because you need more than 1a. I had that whole setup with my Hugo 2 and even doing toslink and I was still searching for better for my ears. A good CDT to Hugo 2 (and Dave) just blew everything else away.


Oh I just realized you were using a power add to power the lps 1.2. nice. I did that with my maxoak powerbank but since the lps 1.2 would cut off charging that supercaps, the max oak would eventually shutdown. Lol. Thankfully I found the hdplex better otherwise that would have drove me nuts.

What's cool is...you can get a ifi elite 15v and compare:
Elite 15v -> HMS
Elite 15v -> lps 1.2 -> HMS

to hear the difference and how much sonic gains there is. It may help you decide how to power the opto dx later on. Unfortunately you need to use an adapter to connect the elite to the HMS, which can introduce some edge.


----------



## audio_1

SteveHulk said:


> OK... First debrief on the Farad mod.
> 
> I'll make it quick because its time for bed.
> 
> ...


Have you tried the Dave an mScaler in your main system?


----------



## SteveHulk

sm60 said:


> Folks,
> 
> I don’t mean to rain on your parade, but for all you DYI modders, you do realize Chord has infinitely more design experience and measurement chutzpah than any of us here? I mean, I do get you’re all having such fun here, and whom am I to question that? Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is the American mantra. But, aren’t there more interesting mods you could explore, like room equalization or headphone equalization or better speakers or headphones etc. I have a Tesla S, and the last thing I want to do is muck about with its battery circuitry. I imagine Tesla has spent gazillions researching the best battery technology. It’s crazy to think I’m better at this than Tesla would be given all their resources.


Don't forget that Chord brought the DAVE to market at a price point and therefore compromises undoubtedly had to be made. It was released at £8000 or maybe less. If it were truly a no-compromise design it might easily have cost double and maybe even more. The competition would have looked very different. 

What we tweakers are effectively saying: let's forget the price point and see if we can find out what this thing can really do.

It is a fun adventure.


----------



## SteveHulk

audio_1 said:


> Have you tried the Dave an mScaler in your main system?


That is definitely coming.


----------



## Somatic

SteveHulk said:


> OK... First debrief on the Farad mod.
> 
> I'll make it quick because its time for bed.
> 
> ...


Oh man. I’m going to have to do this now. Was this with the solo Dave or Dave/hms? I think AudioBacon had a review of the Farad3 mentioned that the treble didn’t extend as far. Have you noticed this? 

https://audiobacon.net/2021/08/06/the-worlds-best-audiophile-linear-power-supplies/9/?amp=1


----------



## 801evan

Somatic said:


> Oh man. I’m going to have to do this now. Was this with the solo Dave or Dave/hms? I think AudioBacon had a review of the Farad3 mentioned that the treble didn’t extend as far. Have you noticed this?
> 
> https://audiobacon.net/2021/08/06/the-worlds-best-audiophile-linear-power-supplies/9/?amp=1


It is a typical sound signature where the Farad lacks the speed plus top extension.


----------



## Somatic

801evan said:


> It is a typical sound signature where the Farad lacks the speed plus top extension.


Can you remind me what your chain is again? What did you do on the power side?


----------



## alxw0w (Jun 22, 2022)

I'm not sure how AudioBacon was doing listening tests, but I assume it was done via speakers.

And lack of "air" and high frequency extension could be a good thing.
On headphones you clearly hear when high frequency is truly extended not just bright forced and polluted by RF noise  or noise floor modulation or whatever.

With speakers high frequencies are more attenuated by just air. Hence you hear it darker.
And when PSU is truly clean you can perceive it as being too dark/rolled off.
So you put next PSU with more noise with more pollution and now you think: ohh there is more air more treble - this is better.
When in fact you added noise to dark sounding system...

That's why in my opinion doing listening test should be always done with both speakers and headphones.
No speaker system  can come close to transparency and direct uncolored sound of headphones.

edit:
I've just checked and indeed it seems like listening tests were done using speakers:


----------



## Triode User

alxw0w said:


> I'm not sure how AudioBacon was doing listening tests, but I assume it was done via speakers.
> 
> And lack of "air" and high frequency extension could be a good thing.
> On headphones you clearly hear when high frequency is truly extended not just bright forced and polluted by RF noise  or noise floor modulation or whatever.
> ...


Agreed, it is too easy to mistake noise generated artifacts as being 'air' or 'high frequency extension'.

Mind you, I don't own any headphones and all my listening is done with speakers but even so with practice and the help of a few well chosen test tracks it is possible to distinguish these things.


----------



## alxw0w

Triode User said:


> Agreed, it is too easy to mistake noise generated artifacts as being 'air' or 'high frequency extension'.
> 
> Mind you, I don't own any headphones and all my listening is done with speakers but even so with practice and the help of a few well chosen test tracks it is possible to distinguish these things.


Ah yes. I probably exaggerated it a bit. I'm also using only headphones as my speaker system is not up to the task 

My point was that some of the changes are easier to hear via speakers and some via headphones.
But of course you can get same conclusion with just speakers, the trick is to know your system, and know some fundamentals what noise can cause in the system.
As sometimes it could be very very hard to know if you done step in a right direction or you are in endless loop of adding/removing noise and fixing it later with dark/bright speakers/headphones.
It can be a real pain.


----------



## Triode User

alxw0w said:


> Ah yes. I probably exaggerated it a bit. I'm also using only headphones as my speaker system is not up to the task
> 
> My point was that some of the changes are easier to hear via speakers and some via headphones.
> But of course you can get same conclusion with just speakers, the trick is to know your system, and know some fundamentals what noise can cause in the system.
> ...


And sometimes I find that listening to simple notes is a better or easier way to judge. I mentioned the acoustic guitar on the Rajaz track by Camel and how different power supplies can add false texture to the notes but which actually mask the true (and more subtle) detail.


----------



## zen87192 (Jun 22, 2022)

Well... my DAVE Farad Super 3 upgrade kit delivery was to be today going by the online information within my FedEx account... although....the FedEx Tracking has not been updated since 20th June. I have no email confirming delivery for today and no email confirming my payment of Import Taxes I made on the 20th June. So...... either I'm going to get a surprise delivery today or I'm waiting in limbo for however long. 🤔


----------



## Rob Watts

chesebert said:


> That’s not how I remember upsampling works as upsampling does not change the actual information (ie its zero padded between samples).
> 
> M scaler both upsamples and interprets the data to create additional data <- these are new data points but it’s just more math.



Absolutely - sampled audio data is mathematically samples of zero time duration with zero values in-between. A NOS filter is indeed an oversampling filter, as it takes the sample points and extend them by holding onto the value. This is the crudest and simplest oversampling filter possible.

Note that in converting from sampled data to an analogue waveform (sampled to continuous conversion) there is always oversampling going on. And you are not trying to create new information by "joining the dots" but ensuring the information is not being degraded. An ideal sinc function interpolation filter will perfectly preserve the information content. The degradation by using real interpolation filters is important because to degrades the timing of transients - nobody can hear above 20kHz, but everybody can hear transients constantly shifting backwards and forwards in time, as transients are a vitally important perceptual cue.  



BassicScience said:


> The current state-of-the-art in Class D amp modules are Hypex and Purifi. Both of those DO use global feedback. The fact that he throws in the word "subjectively" is interesting. I'd like to see the theory/math behind his statement. But if you want to believe that everything Mr. Watts claims he hears reflects reality, that is certainly your choice. Or you can actually listen for yourself and arrive at your own conclusions.
> 
> This is OT, so I'm not going to post any further on it here.



So PWM by it's very nature will have transient timing that is amplitude dependent, as higher amplitude outputs are earlier than lower value outputs. In an ideal world the Class D OP reconstruction filter would eliminate this issue, but you would need an impossibly capable filter to do this. Moreover, the filters themselves have phase error issues, creating something called PIM or phase intermodulation distortion. This problem is easily measurable (you see it with increasing distortion with frequency) and extremely audible.

As someone that has been able to simulate minute timing errors in the digital domain, then hear the consequences, I know that the ear/brain is extremely sensitive to any transient timing errors.

And I fully agree - always listen for yourself and make your own mind up.


----------



## alxw0w (Jun 22, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> A NOS filter is indeed an oversampling filter, as it takes the sample points and extend them by holding onto the value. This is the crudest and simplest oversampling filter possible


That's why in my opinion NOS dacs give false perception of details for example in bass. People call it facture or inner detail.
When in reality it's just timing problems.
You can feel kinda similar situation when using m scaler with dave.
When you put m scaler in pass through mode bass suddenly becomes more "detailed/inner detailed/factured" - of course not to the same degree like NOS dacs but the feeling is similiar.

When in reality it's just problem with not reconstructing signal.
But that's just my assumption after many listening tests and trying to wrap my head around it.


----------



## 801evan (Jun 22, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> And lack of "air" and high frequency extension could be a good thing.
> On headphones you clearly hear when high frequency is truly extended not just bright forced and polluted by RF noise or noise floor modulation or whatever.
> 
> With speakers high frequencies are more attenuated by just air. Hence you hear it darker.
> ...



Clean psu's shouldn't sound too dark. If it's clean and dark, then it's slow and lacks extension or lacks balance. Though you are right in a way where this depends on the experience of listener decoding what they are hearing.

Lps 1.2 + hdplex and silver dc cables,it is light on it's feet. Fast but lacks deepness and can be  a  whole lot blacker. At least it's not hazy.

Farad 3, 'dark', deep, because it lacks balance and that upper extension. Not as fast.

Most chi-fi LPS, ringy before you can judge anything else.

Ifi Elite, I cut the ferrite and replaced the plug with Oyaide 2.1. Perfection. Black, via low noise floor, but not dark at all coz it's fast and balanced on bottom and top end extension. So it's the blackest and most linear psu for me and it's cheap for what it delivers.

Hypsos, balanced but very hazy and super sensitive to device that doesn't draw power at a steady rate.



Triode User said:


> And sometimes I find that listening to simple notes is a better or easier way to judge. I mentioned the acoustic guitar on the Rajaz track by Camel and how different power supplies can add false texture to the notes but which actu


100% I've been caught many times with the false texture and detail. Many veteran reviewers get caught in it and says it's more transparent and has more clarity. Nowadays I'm still impressed at how unseemingly smooth the way the first strike and vocals comes and maintains the energy and smoothness and with very little texture. It takes a lot of experience and a taste of end game sound to catch it.



alxw0w said:


> That's why in my opinion NOS dacs give false perception of details for example in bass. People call it facture or inner detail.


Can you describe more of what this sounds like? This is also news to me to hear some criticism on the sonic quality of NOS so it's a welcome. Good thing Denafrips isn't true NOS... 😂 And makes sense with the way ppl describe it that I like it better than Holo Audio.


----------



## alxw0w

801evan said:


> Can you describe more of what this sounds like? This is also news to me to hear some criticism on the sonic quality of NOS so it's a welcome. Good thing Denafrips isn't true NOS... 😂 And makes sense with the way ppl describe it that I like it better than Holo Audio.


It's hard to describe, it seems like there is more detail in the bass. Not between notes but in one note you can feel more texture. 
You can feel that effect when you use MScaler at full upscaling and then turn it off. With NOS dacs it's even more apparent because lack of reconstruction filter.
And no I haven't heard Denafrips. I'm referring to Holo and AGD - as I've heard those. But I'm sure every other NOS dac is the same.


----------



## zen87192

Finally managed to get to speak to a Customer Sevices Representative at FedEx in the UK. I stated that I received an email confirmation that my package has arrived at Stanstead and FedEx have prepaid my taxes to avoid delay with my delivery. This was totally false. FedEx never prepaid my Taxes and my package is still at Stansted awaiting clearance. Although my payment of the Import Taxes have already been made this has yet to be attached and confirmed with my parcel. So.... this is now advised to be delivered possibly by the end of this week pending any further delay issues at Stanstead and FedEx. As we know... Airports are understaffed and FedEx have probably two delivery drivers for the whole country.... 🙄 My illustrated delivery date within my FedEx account being today was purely an estimate, I was advised by the Rep. I really should have driven over to the Netherlands to collect it (and probably saved on the Taxes as well) Hindsight hey! Roll on next week then......


----------



## MvRBE10

Make a group buy and pick up a few sets that really saves money…


----------



## 801evan

alxw0w said:


> It's hard to describe, it seems like there is more detail in the bass. Not between notes but in one note you can feel more texture.
> You can feel that effect when you use MScaler at full upscaling and then turn it off. With NOS dacs it's even more apparent because lack of reconstruction filter.
> And no I haven't heard Denafrips. I'm referring to Holo and AGD - as I've heard those. But I'm sure every other NOS dac is the same.


Gotcha. With hms bypass vs on, there is that seemingly more detail in the bass on bypass. For me, it's a noiser, less controlled playback. Yes, it's like fake detail when you spot it. Coz on the bass hit, you got the fundamental bass but there's like a harmonic that accompanies it on a higher frequency that even lingers. 

Now I have to wrap my head around that NOS on Holo and audio gd gives that effect. I mean, part of the selling point of Holo NOS is needing a external transport to do all the oversampling work before shipping it to the dac. Meh. To have that whole oversampled bit stream travel down the wire will make it open to interference and it's coming from a PC with many noisy components. This also why one needs the wave storms BNC on the HMS because of the already oversampled data and to not be oversampled anymore by the dac. This is also why MQA sent to full decoder DACs sounds better than the first unfold being done by the streamer despite there shouldn't be any differences to SQ. To have the XMOS of the MQA full decoder do the first and second unfold on the dac side, it gets to not be as affected as the others mentioned.


----------



## alxw0w (Jun 22, 2022)

801evan said:


> Gotcha. With hms bypass vs on, there is that seemingly more detail in the bass on bypass. For me, it's a noiser, less controlled playback. Yes, it's like fake detail when you spot it. Coz on the bass hit, you got the fundamental bass but there's like a harmonic that accompanies it on a higher frequency that even lingers.


Exactly. Without HMS bass seems to be "more textured" but at the same time initial transient is softer.
With HMS fundamental is sharper more pronounced (transient is sharper, clearer) but later note is smoother more solid or whatever you want to call it.
It's hard to describe but there is definitely something going on and I connect it with interpolation filter vs no interpolation filter.

ps. and now go and listen some bass notes of real unamplified music, I mean in person in real life.


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> Oh man. I’m going to have to do this now. Was this with the solo Dave or Dave/hms? I think AudioBacon had a review of the Farad3 mentioned that the treble didn’t extend as far. Have you noticed this?
> 
> https://audiobacon.net/2021/08/06/the-worlds-best-audiophile-linear-power-supplies/9/?amp=1


This was with the m scaler.

I'm not aware of a specific problem with the treble, but one thing I did notice when listening to the Patricia Barber track was just how human she sounded. Like a normal person just singing to me.


----------



## 801evan

alxw0w said:


> but later note is smoother more solid or whatever you want to call it.


It's called end game goals.



alxw0w said:


> ps. and now go and listen some bass notes of real unamplified music, I mean in person in real life.


I heard a live drum circle in an semi open area last week. It was meh....coz Utopia got more slam and punch and TC has more quantity. 😂😂😂😉


----------



## alxw0w

801evan said:


> It's called end game goals.
> 
> 
> I heard a live drum circle in an semi open area last week. It was meh....coz Utopia got more slam and punch and TC has more quantity. 😂😂😂😉


So they are better than real instruments 
Truly an audio nirvana


----------



## chesebert

801evan said:


> It's called end game goals.
> 
> 
> I heard a live drum circle in an semi open area last week. It was meh....coz Utopia got more slam and punch and TC has more quantity. 😂😂😂😉


So someone recorded the session and you got a copy of the master file and played back on your Utopia and 1266?


----------



## Somatic

SteveHulk said:


> This was with the m scaler.
> 
> I'm not aware of a specific problem with the treble, but one thing I did notice when listening to the Patricia Barber track was just how human she sounded. Like a normal person just singing to me.


So Farad3 is a significant upgrade from your custom battery setup? This sounds great. Will need to join the party. 

Curious on your thoughts of solo Dave in conjunction with the Farad3. Wondering if you still get the previous performance delta from going Mscaler.


----------



## 801evan

alxw0w said:


> With HMS fundamental is sharper more pronounced (transient is sharper, clearer) but later note is smoother more solid or whatever you want to call it.


As one refines their chain, they'll be surprised how smooth the leading edge comes in in terms of lack of peaky transients, maintains and hold that line (smoothness) and releases. Most of the experience is presented in detail of information not energy or peakyness OR texture. Smooth detail without texture, can you imagine that? What's important is speed and the ability to resolve the information of the first strike of the instrument, which many setups miss but make up for in transients (detail/leading edge for some). Then that transient is occluding what should be decay and proper harmonics, killing the sense of space and seperation. Then a less optimized chain adds some ringing (texture) after that. Then you add a tube amp to flatten it somewhat, and add 2nd order harmonics to kinda make an alternate universe...which is fine.


----------



## Somatic (Jun 22, 2022)

I have some ferrite clip ons laying around.

FERRITE CORE, SPLIT, 7.5MM, 246OHM; Cable Diameter:7.5mm; Frequency Min:1MHz; Frequency Max:1GHz; Impedance:246ohm; Product Range: STAR-TEC Series

Wondering if there is any effects if I add a few to the Dave power cable? I really don't know much about ferrites and the best use case other than to counteract RF in BNC cables.

I used my ears and am unsure. I think it sounds darker overall.

Edit: I added 2 on the power cable. Sounds darker but more muted. I need to turn the volume higher. Is this normal? What is going on? Also, I'm such a NEWB and trying to figure out how to take off this damn bead lol.


----------



## Somatic

So I sent this to Chord Support today:

_So I am using a Windows 10 PC with Mscaler and Dave. I connect Optical (Toslink) out from PC into the Mscaler Optical in. Then dual BNC from Mscaler to Dave. Dave shows D Bnc1 768 kHz. 
So it seems like its all working fine.

Wondering on the Sound Properties on the PC should I use 24/192 as the default format? My new optical cable is able to do 24/192. Or should I have it at 16/44.1? Also when using Mscaler should I have HF Fil off or on?_

Response:
_Is there any reason you aren't using USB? Unless the optical connection can also run direct from your music playback software, it will involve your computer's MIDI settings which drastically affects quality. Using USB set to run in direct mode from playback software to Mscaler will bypass these settings and ensure the correct sample rate is being sent._

I don't see an option to use Optical in "direct mode". Also, Rob has stated several times that he prefers optical. I am using Equalizer APO on Windows 10 for use with LCD5. Wondering if I can get some advice. Thanks.


----------



## 801evan

Somatic said:


> So I sent this to Chord Support today:
> 
> _So I am using a Windows 10 PC with Mscaler and Dave. I connect Optical (Toslink) out from PC into the Mscaler Optical in. Then dual BNC from Mscaler to Dave. Dave shows D Bnc1 768 kHz.
> So it seems like its all working fine.
> ...


U got it on exclusive mode so it should be okay. Application will dictate what FS and bit rate to use so it will send bit-perfect to the HMS. Well, not exactly bit-perfect since you are using EQ.


----------



## Somatic

801evan said:


> U got it on exclusive mode so it should be okay. Application will dictate what FS and bit rate to use so it will send bit-perfect to the HMS. Well, not exactly bit-perfect since you are using EQ.


So yes, exclusive mode should bypass the EQ and work in bit perfect mode. I do get a weird bug using Mscaler and Exclusive mode though. Anyone else get this audio snipit reverse play for half a second before switching tracks? This is with Amazon HD. Going to switch to Qobuz today and see if I still get the issue.


----------



## 801evan

Somatic said:


> So yes, exclusive mode should bypass the EQ and work in bit perfect mode. I do get a weird bug using Mscaler and Exclusive mode though. Anyone else get this audio snipit reverse play for half a second before switching tracks? This is with Amazon HD. Going to switch to Qobuz today and see if I still get the issue.


Is the optical out part of the motherboard or it's a daughterboard?


----------



## Somatic

801evan said:


> Is the optical out part of the motherboard or it's a daughterboard?


PCIE board.


----------



## 801evan

I wasn't clear, what's the brand of the board? Or is it like a pci-e board that's still part of the mother board kit and is the same brand as the motherboard?

Anyways, maybe you can find on the device manager and see if there's any extra settings. But maybe not. 🤷‍♂️ Wish I can remember where that behavior has happened to me before. Like it's possible switching up tracks is glitching up the buffer and the cache had to clear as there's a new stream that needs to happen. Unlikely it's from the HMS end as it's just playing what it's receiving.


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> So Farad3 is a significant upgrade from your custom battery setup? This sounds great. Will need to join the party.
> 
> Curious on your thoughts of solo Dave in conjunction with the Farad3. Wondering if you still get the previous performance delta from going Mscaler.


I use the Farad3 in conjunction with my custom battery setup.

I still don't want random noise on the mains getting to my system.

I'm going to settle in with the m scaler for now. I'm avoiding configuration overload 🙂


----------



## audio_1

muski said:


> That's what I was hearing when I used to feed the Opto-DX directly from the PowerAdd. I thought the Uptone UltraCap LPS-1.2 would be much faster (it's a bank of capacitors, I guess). Which is why I added it between the PowerAdd and Opto-DX R. Sounded better to my ears...


The Uptone UltraCap LPS-1.2 was mentioned on the Audiowise website as not been ideal for the Opto DX as some customers had experience problems with switching noise when the 1.2 switched from one bank of capacitors to the other. I don't see any reference to it now though.  I use Farad Super3 supplies for both the transmitter and receiver.


----------



## Reactcore (Jun 22, 2022)

Somatic said:


> So I sent this to Chord Support today:
> 
> _So I am using a Windows 10 PC with Mscaler and Dave. I connect Optical (Toslink) out from PC into the Mscaler Optical in. Then dual BNC from Mscaler to Dave. Dave shows D Bnc1 768 kHz.
> So it seems like its all working fine.
> ...


A software player program can take exclusive use of your soundcard.
The windows mixer (from which you showed the settings) is then being bypassed.

But in your player you must choose direct mode (also called wasapi)

Which player software are you using?

Btw you can test this by playing music.. and let windows make a notification sound or do a test sound in windows sound settings 

If your player is right setup.. you wont hear other windows sounds


----------



## Somatic

Something definitely weird is going on. I tried toslink and USB and using Amazon HD I cannot get exclusive mode to work. Doesn't change sample rate on Mscaler. Read that Amazon HD doesnt have true exclusive mode. I downloaded Qobuz but having issues getting the app to work. Seems like it still thinks I am on trial version. Once I test out Quboz exclusive mode will let you know if it works or not.


Reactcore said:


> A software player program can take exclusive use of your soundcard.
> The windows mixer (from which you showed the settings) is then being bypassed.
> 
> But in your player you must choose direct mode (also called wasapi)
> ...


----------



## Somatic

Ok working now. Amazon Unlimited is crap. Exclusive mode is not true exclusive mode and uses Windows mixer.


----------



## Reactcore

Somatic said:


> Something definitely weird is going on. I tried toslink and USB and using Amazon HD I cannot get exclusive mode to work. Doesn't change sample rate on Mscaler. Read that Amazon HD doesnt have true exclusive mode. I downloaded Qobuz but having issues getting the app to work. Seems like it still thinks I am on trial version. Once I test out Quboz exclusive mode will let you know if it works or not.



I never use streaming except for some occasional youtube.. i play from my server stored source using Foobar and mediacenter


----------



## Somatic (Jun 22, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> I never use streaming except for some occasional youtube.. i play from my server stored source using Foobar and mediacenter


Ok, got it working. Seems like Amazon HD does not have a true exclusive mode, they just name it that way.

So I tried out Qobuz and using exclusive mode it does indeed switch sample rates using USB or Optical.

I did notice some type of bug using the Mscaler which is not apparent using solo Dave.

Using exclusive mode and switching sample rates 24/44.1, 24/48, 24/96 for example. When the upscaled sample rate using dual BNC switches from 768khz to 705khz such as going from 24/48 to 24/44.1. It produces a half second of audio sample (buffer?). Sound like slowed down reversed audio sample before switching tracks. This happens with USB or Optical using the Mscaler but not solo Dave. As the issue is with the Mscaler upscaling from 705khz to 768khz in realtime. It can't keep up without some audio artifacts.

Anyone else encounter this issue?

Edit: Oops, I send this to the Mscaler forum thread.


----------



## Somatic

PhenixS1970 said:


> At the end I went for a “sys concept” toslink cable and that passes on 192 to DAVE without issues.  The connection also “clicks”.


Hmm I just bought this cable does not work at 192. Compared to my other Monoprice cable this actually plays the music but it is very distorted. Sucks


----------



## MvRBE10

Only cable that worked for me was the one that came with it, tried lifatech, wireworld, aq all failed at 192 mostly due to bad aligning at the connector. Maybe maybe if the lifatec was shorter dan 3ft someone said but did not want to try it twice with all the hassle from usa and back. So i stayed with the stock one always works


----------



## PhenixS1970 (Jun 22, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Hmm I just bought this cable does not work at 192. Compared to my other Monoprice cable this actually plays the music but it is very distorted. Sucks


I’m sorry to read that. Weird I have 2, 50cm & 1m and they worked flawless up to 192.  Think it’s a well known cable here so maybe someone else can provide some more insights. Btw I also used to have the Lifatech and that worked up to 192 as well. My DAVE left the factory 3y ago but I assume that Chord didn’t make any changes to the optical in part (right?).


----------



## Somatic

MvRBE10 said:


> Only cable that worked for me was the one that came with it, tried lifatech, wireworld, aq all failed at 192 mostly due to bad aligning at the connector. Maybe maybe if the lifatec was shorter dan 3ft someone said but did not want to try it twice with all the hassle from usa and back. So i stayed with the stock one always works


Hmmm thanks for the heads up. Will try stock later today.


----------



## PhenixS1970 (Jun 22, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Hmmm thanks for the heads up. Will try stock later today.


Did you do a hard switch off/on when you swapped the cable? I recall that I had a few times some distortions when swapping optical/usb cables while DAVE was in standby.


----------



## PhenixS1970

1300-strands 24/192 Toslink Premium. To be sure this is the sys concept one I have (2x).


----------



## muski

audio_1 said:


> The Uptone UltraCap LPS-1.2 was mentioned on the Audiowise website as not been ideal for the Opto DX as some customers had experience problems with switching noise when the 1.2 switched from one bank of capacitors to the other. I don't see any reference to it now though. I use Farad Super3 supplies for both the transmitter and receiver.


Interesting. I can't hear it and still prefer the LPS-1.2 driving the Opto-DX than just PowerAdd.

I do hear a difference between PowerAdd batteries. To my ears, the smaller one sounds better than the larger one. I noticed in a post from Rob that he can hear a difference between different battery output voltages. I have yet to go there!


----------



## 801evan

Somatic said:


> . Read that Amazon HD doesnt have true exclusive mode


Oh good point. I read about that and it was a pass for me.


----------



## chesebert

Anyone else checking in from time to time to see if that capacitor has blown?


----------



## Somatic

PhenixS1970 said:


> 1300-strands 24/192 Toslink Premium. To be sure this is the sys concept one I have (2x).


Yup that’s the same one.


----------



## ra990

On one of my past TT2s, one toslink socket was just slightly slanted and the other was straight, flush with the frame. I could get perfect 192k playback with almost any cable on the good input and max 96k regardless of the cable on the slanted input. If your toslink input is the issue, I'm afraid the cable probably won't make a difference.


----------



## 801evan

The bigger issue with toslink cables to deliver 192 is the input connector design, fit and reliability. It's plastic so both the device and cable connector will wear overtime and not have that click. So always be mindful in plugging and unplugging where the click/snap is a gentle slide.


----------



## Somatic

SteveHulk said:


> I use the Farad3 in conjunction with my custom battery setup.
> 
> I still don't want random noise on the mains getting to my system.
> 
> I'm going to settle in with the m scaler for now. I'm avoiding configuration overload 🙂


How’s it going with the Farad3? Planning to order one soon for the Dave? Did you pay for the upgraded inlets and fuses? Thanks


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 23, 2022)

Somatic said:


> How’s it going with the Farad3? Planning to order one soon for the Dave? Did you pay for the upgraded inlets and fuses? Thanks


Haven't managed any focused listening since the day I installed the Farad3 for the DAVE.

I'll try again this evening.

Yes I paid for the upgraded inlets and the fuses.

I'm going to hold off on a Farad for the m scaler until I see where Chord are going with that if anywhere.


----------



## lucasratmundo

Somatic said:


> Cool got the Mscaler today. I think it adds more of the same differences between TT2 and Dave. Sounds more realistic, more 3d like, more emotive, reverb and sounds of the recording space is increased. It’s not night and day but to me it seems worth it. I can see it priced lower but anything that increases my connection to the music is a needed addition.
> 
> I notice slight brightness hear and there. I’m sure it’s from the RF noise. Going to buy a DC power bank and then some Wave cables soon.
> 
> ...


What is this stand you're using for the Dave? Looks nice and tidy.


----------



## burbster

I would love to hear the Farad v a DC4. Anyone fancy a trip to Sunny Porthcawl with their DAVE and Farad? Compare to my DAVE and DC4. (The Farads looks an easier option to transport, the DC4 is big!) Free unlimited drinks of choice will be supplied!! Or has anyone already done this? Be great to hear any thoughts.


----------



## chesebert

Didn’t you know bigger/heavier is better?


----------



## Somatic

lucasratmundo said:


> What is this stand you're using for the Dave? Looks nice and tidy.


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076HY53F2?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details


----------



## Somatic

chesebert said:


> That’s not great workmanship on the control board - I would be worried.


Due to the glue? and the solder points?


----------



## chesebert

Somatic said:


> Due to the glue? and the solder points?


Bad looking solder joints and I think I saw quite a bit of flux residue.

I think glue is fine


----------



## miketlse

PhenixS1970 said:


> I’m sorry to read that. Weird I have 2, 50cm & 1m and they worked flawless up to 192.  Think it’s a well known cable here so maybe someone else can provide some more insights. Btw I also used to have the Lifatech and that worked up to 192 as well. My DAVE left the factory 3y ago but I assume that Chord didn’t make any changes to the optical in part (right?).


Read this post.
It is easy to have cable mismatch problems preventing optical working at 192.

However even if Chord have not changed the design of their dacs, it is becoming more difficult to guarantee that the components in a music source will be able to stream 192 to the DAVE.


----------



## PhenixS1970

miketlse said:


> Read this post.
> It is easy to have cable mismatch problems preventing optical working at 192.
> 
> However even if Chord have not changed the design of their dacs, it is becoming more difficult to guarantee that the components in a music source will be able to stream 192 to the DAVE.


Thank you for this interesting read. Using the Auralic Aries G1 as source to DAVE optical worked flawless for me with these cables.


----------



## burbster

PhenixS1970 said:


> Thank you for this interesting read. Using the Auralic Aries G1 as source to DAVE optical worked flawless for me with these cables.





miketlse said:


> Read this post.
> It is easy to have cable mismatch problems preventing optical working at 192.
> 
> However even if Chord have not changed the design of their dacs, it is becoming more difficult to guarantee that the components in a music source will be able to stream 192 to the DAVE.


that post was interesting, but the complete opposite to my own experience. Without fail, the cheap plastic ‘free’ type toslink cable always supported 192 on my Dave, and hms with no issues, rock solid. Where as my aq diamond and qed reference, both glass, precision polished etc, would only ever support 96. I have a background in fibre optics but I am struggling to explain why the ‘superior’ cables behaved like this.


----------



## Somatic

chesebert said:


> Bad looking solder joints and I think I saw quite a bit of flux residue.
> 
> I think glue is fine


Hmmm I'm not an electrical engineer but I could even tell some of those solder joints looked suspect ... hmmm ...


PhenixS1970 said:


> Thank you for this interesting read. Using the Auralic Aries G1 as source to DAVE optical worked flawless for me with these cables.


It might be my optical card. Cheap S h i  tz


----------



## shuttlepod

For two weeks now, I have been listening to a Sean Jacobs ARC6 DC4 power supply hooked up to my Chord DAVE. It replaced a Sean Jacobs DC3, so I had already modified my DAVE to remove the stock SMPS. I bought the ARC6 used; a new one with the proper connections to a DAVE will cost you $10,000 USD.

Admittedly, that is a lot of money for a power supply, especially one that powers a DAVE, which can be bought on the used market for somewhere around $8000 USD if current listings are to be believed. Nevertheless, if you own a Chord DAVE and if you have the funds, I am hard pressed to think of another change for the same money that will improve your sound this much.

I’ll try to be succinct. The first words to enter my mind, approximately ten seconds into my first listen, were space and bass. That was followed quickly by vibrant. Then “resolution monster.” You don’t strain to hear these changes. They practically hit you in the face. Maybe it’s a cliché, but the ARC6 makes every single track sound new and better. Every single one. I’ll just quickly summarize my listening notes: deep black silence, easily heard improvements to bass in both quality and quantity (actually measurable), vivid colors, tonal density and richness, serious magnification including a lot of newly intelligible vocals, beautiful and true timbres, and powerful, controlled micro- and macro-dynamic swings.

Now I have not heard other replacement power supplies for the DAVE, so I can’t compare solutions from Farad or others. What I can do is give you a sense of the magnitude of the change I am hearing with other changes to my system. I certainly can’t think of any other power supply that has made anywhere near this impact, including Farad Super3s, Uptone LPS 1 and 1.2, and Uptone JS-2. None of these powered my Chord DAVE, but none had nearly the impact on the devices they did power. Paul Hynes made me a one-off custom power supply for my phono stage, but its impact is also dwarfed by the ARC6. Probably the closest is the Sean Jacobs DC3, but going from DC3 to ARC6 (I skipped the plain vanilla DC4) is quite clearly a larger leap than DAVE solo to DAVE plus DC3 (not that the DC3 is chopped liver – it is a huge and worthy upgrade for a fraction of the price, if you can find one).

In terms of overall system upgrades, perhaps the closest and most apt comparison is to the Taiko Extreme, which, not coincidentally, employs a heroic power supply. The Extreme and the ARC6 bring some of the same things to the table: increased tonal density and vibrancy, dynamics, bass quality and quantity. The overall magnitude of change in my system has been roughly similar. The Shunyata Everest, combined with a nice selection of Shunyata Sigma and Alpha power cords, was another great upgrade that transformed my system and did so across both digital and analog. But the sonic impact was not as great.

If I were advising someone on what to buy and when to buy it, I would prioritize an ARC6-DAVE combo over an Extreme or similarly priced server. This is especially the case if you already have a DAVE, but even if you don’t, a used DAVE plus ARC6 is going to cost you maybe 65% of what an Extreme will cost you (and that’s with a Euro that has declined a lot relative to the US dollar in recent months). All of this assumes that you already are using something better than an off-the-shelf computer as a music server.

Apart from the Extreme, I can’t think of any other change to my system that has been this dramatic, save for speakers. But I put speakers into a separate category, one that is highly personal.

Actually, if you own a Chord DAVE, I can think of one change that will give you greater bang for your buck: PGGB (see remastero.com). For a comparatively minimal investment, and assuming you can dedicate an appropriately powerful computer to remaster albums in your library, PGGB provides an incredible sonic lift. The combination of an ARC6-DAVE and music that has been PGGB’d is sublime. I have a nice vinyl setup (TW Acustic Raven, Raven tonearm, Miyajima cart, and Crayon phono stage) and PGGB albums sound better than all but a vanishingly small percentage of the same music on vinyl (and that was true before the ARC6 upgrade; the chasm has only grown since then).


----------



## Somatic

shuttlepod said:


> For two weeks now, I have been listening to a Sean Jacobs ARC6 DC4 power supply hooked up to my Chord DAVE. It replaced a Sean Jacobs DC3, so I had already modified my DAVE to remove the stock SMPS. I bought the ARC6 used; a new one with the proper connections to a DAVE will cost you $10,000 USD.
> 
> Admittedly, that is a lot of money for a power supply, especially one that powers a DAVE, which can be bought on the used market for somewhere around $8000 USD if current listings are to be believed. Nevertheless, if you own a Chord DAVE and if you have the funds, I am hard pressed to think of another change for the same money that will improve your sound this much.
> 
> ...


You are at the top! 

Happy to hear. Wish you a lot of listening time without needs to upgrade.


----------



## SteveHulk

Back on the case... 🎧🎶😜

I am amazed by how black silence is. When it needs to, the music just stops dead. The suddenness with which it can restart is almost shocking. This is quite a feature of electro music amongst other genres.

I also am getting a distinctly better idea of what sounds actually are. It makes electro and synth much more interesting. 

I was wondering initially: but wait where has all the detail gone? With the Patricia Barber I was worried for a little while but the detail is still all there. It is now in its right place. Before she was singing to me but right up in my face. Breathing all over me. Now she is still singing to me but at a close and normal distance. I can still hear her breathing but she just sounds so much more human.

I'll move on to organ and piano soon. Either of those can really destroy a sound system.

On a non-music matter...

... and my damned Windows tablet just ran out of battery 😡

... what I was going to say is: it's amazing how cool the DAVE runs now without that fire-breathing smps and its uber-hot voltage regulators in the same case 🙂


----------



## Somatic

burbster said:


> that post was interesting, but the complete opposite to my own experience. Without fail, the cheap plastic ‘free’ type toslink cable always supported 192 on my Dave, and hms with no issues, rock solid. Where as my aq diamond and qed reference, both glass, precision polished etc, would only ever support 96. I have a background in fibre optics but I am struggling to explain why the ‘superior’ cables behaved like this.


Hmmm my mono price cable couldn’t do  192. Maybe my Mscaler and Dave is bunk lol. I think it might be my shi t y soundcard


----------



## shaylin3

SteveHulk said:


> Back on the case... 🎧🎶😜
> 
> I am amazed by how black silence is. When it needs to, the music just stops dead. The suddenness with which it can restart is almost shocking. This is quite a feature of electro music amongst other genres.
> 
> ...


Hope to hear more information, thank you for your efforts


----------



## Reactcore

shuttlepod said:


> For two weeks now, I have been listening to a Sean Jacobs ARC6 DC4 power supply hooked up to my Chord DAVE.



Did you listened solely on speakers.. or did you also use headphones on Dave's amp.. preferably with only one source connected to Dave

Im trying to see if Arc6 benefits are In Dave or more in a external Amp


----------



## burbster

Somatic said:


> Hmmm my mono price cable couldn’t do  192. Maybe my Mscaler and Dave is bunk lol. I think it might be my shi t y soundcard


Yes that’s weird. When I was using optical it was with an original auralic Aries, and later the G1. Is there anyway you can borrow a different source just to check?


----------



## 801evan (Jun 24, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Hmmm my mono price cable couldn’t do  192. Maybe my Mscaler and Dave is bunk lol. I think it might be my shi t y soundcard


The build quality of the source output and It's connector is my usual issue indeed.


----------



## burbster

shuttlepod said:


> For two weeks now, I have been listening to a Sean Jacobs ARC6 DC4 power supply hooked up to my Chord DAVE. It replaced a Sean Jacobs DC3, so I had already modified my DAVE to remove the stock SMPS. I bought the ARC6 used; a new one with the proper connections to a DAVE will cost you $10,000 USD.
> 
> Admittedly, that is a lot of money for a power supply, especially one that powers a DAVE, which can be bought on the used market for somewhere around $8000 USD if current listings are to be believed. Nevertheless, if you own a Chord DAVE and if you have the funds, I am hard pressed to think of another change for the same money that will improve your sound this much.
> 
> ...


I only have the standard DC4 but my experience was remarkably similar, you now have me lusting after the arc6 upgrade  though! Only thing that I would add, is in my case, with mscaler, Dave and dc4 plus cables I am not far off a £20k dac setup. Obviously I have build this up gradually over time, and I never imagined I would ever spend this much when I started out, but as a result, I have never directly compared by setup to a £20k dac, I wonder how it would fair?


----------



## burbster

SteveHulk said:


> This was with the m scaler.
> 
> I'm not aware of a specific problem with the treble, but one thing I did notice when listening to the Patricia Barber track was just how human she sounded. Like a normal person just singing to me.


I was about to post my experience, comparing for the first time since I bought my transport and DC4, a solo Dave v HMS +Dave, following on from a comment, I think by @801evan, that with a good transport Dave may sound better. Well to cut a long story short, I still preferred the HMS presentation, slightly more recessed behind the speakers, and just a little more relaxed, which I usually take as a positive. However, want really threw me, and was quite obvious, was the higher frequencies, things like cymbal splashes sounded distinctly more real and believable WITHOUT the HMS in the chain. Which had me scratching my head, but I am now wondering could that be down to the Farad3 I am using on HMS? I have the Wave stream cables along with a CAD GC1 connected to HMS and Dave. I may get the MCRU PSU and original SMPS back out to test, although from memory they bring comprises in other areas, like sound stage depth (for me anyway)


----------



## Triode User

shuttlepod said:


> For two weeks now, I have been listening to a Sean Jacobs ARC6 DC4 power supply hooked up to my Chord DAVE. It replaced a Sean Jacobs DC3, so I had already modified my DAVE to remove the stock SMPS. I bought the ARC6 used; a new one with the proper connections to a DAVE will cost you $10,000 USD.
> 
> Admittedly, that is a lot of money for a power supply, especially one that powers a DAVE, which can be bought on the used market for somewhere around $8000 USD if current listings are to be believed. Nevertheless, if you own a Chord DAVE and if you have the funds, I am hard pressed to think of another change for the same money that will improve your sound this much.
> 
> ...


I started with a DC3 powering my Dave and then went to a DC4 and then finally updated that to ARC6.  Each of these changes was significant and I can echo all of what you say. I have not (yet) tried the Farad Super 3 system with the Dave but I did have a Farad Super 3 powering my Qutest and swopped that out for a DC4 (not ARC6) and the improvement of the DC4 over the Farad was unexpectedly large (unexpected because I had chosen the Farad as being the best out of perhaps 6 or so others that I had tried in back to back testing). The Qutest + DC4 even made me wonder whether the combination could compete with say £5k dacs, it was that good.


----------



## burbster

Triode User said:


> I started with a DC3 powering my Dave and then went to a DC4 and then finally updated that to ARC6.  Each of these changes was significant and I can echo all of what you say. I have not (yet) tried the Farad Super 3 system with the Dave but I did have a Farad Super 3 powering my Qutest and swopped that out for a DC4 (not ARC6) and the improvement of the DC4 over the Farad was unexpectedly large (unexpected because I had chosen the Farad as being the best out of perhaps 6 or so others that I had tried in back to back testing). The Qutest + DC4 even made me wonder whether the combination could compete with say £5k dacs, it was that good.


So the leap from DC4 to arc6 is not subtle? Dam, where does this rabbit  hole end??   I am sure Sean use to list the price for a DC4 to ARC6 upgrade but I cant see it now.


----------



## PhenixS1970

Shameless plug, listed my 2 x Sys. Concept Inc. toslink cables in the classifieds.


----------



## Ciggavelli

burbster said:


> So the leap from DC4 to arc6 is not subtle? Dam, where does this rabbit  hole end??   I am sure Sean use to list the price for a DC4 to ARC6 upgrade but I cant see it now.


Are you using speakers or headphones?  I suspect the delta is less with headphones.


----------



## griff500

burbster said:


> So the leap from DC4 to arc6 is not subtle? Dam, where does this rabbit  hole end??


In Wonderland of course, and you mustn't be late!


----------



## Triode User

burbster said:


> So the leap from DC4 to arc6 is not subtle? Dam, where does this rabbit  hole end??   I am sure Sean use to list the price for a DC4 to ARC6 upgrade but I cant see it now.


It is not subtle.

As an aside, the Innuos Statement streamer uses the DC4 power supplies and Innuos have recently launched an upgraded version of the Statement where the only change is to use ARC6 power instead of DC4. The two versions were exhibited side by side at last weekend's North West Audio Show in the UK so one could swop between the two in the Innuos room. I am told by those who heard them that the difference was not subtle. Deeper and firmer bass, sweeter mids and top end etc etc. And this is a purely digital device.


----------



## burbster

Ciggavelli said:


> Are you using speakers or headphones?  I suspect the delta is less with headphones.


I listen 95% of the time with speakers, very occasionally I will use headphones. I think you are right, but not being an experienced head phone user, I am probably not best placed to comment.


----------



## burbster

Triode User said:


> It is not subtle.
> 
> As an aside, the Innuos Statement streamer uses the DC4 power supplies and Innuos have recently launched an upgraded version of the Statement where the only change is to use ARC6 power instead of DC4. The two versions were exhibited side by side at last weekend's North West Audio Show in the UK so one could swop between the two in the Innuos room. I am told by those who heard them that the difference was not subtle. Deeper and firmer bass, sweeter mids and top end etc etc. And this is a purely digital device.


Wow, good to know. I feel an email to Sean J is required.


----------



## Somatic

Triode User said:


> It is not subtle.
> 
> As an aside, the Innuos Statement streamer uses the DC4 power supplies and Innuos have recently launched an upgraded version of the Statement where the only change is to use ARC6 power instead of DC4. The two versions were exhibited side by side at last weekend's North West Audio Show in the UK so one could swop between the two in the Innuos room. I am told by those who heard them that the difference was not subtle. Deeper and firmer bass, sweeter mids and top end etc etc. And this is a purely digital device.


I just wish it was 20% cheaper. Seems like a lot for a power supply. I guess that’s the price you got to pay to play with the big boys.


----------



## 801evan

burbster said:


> I was about to post my experience, comparing for the first time since I bought my transport and DC4, a solo Dave v HMS +Dave, following on from a comment, I think by @801evan, that with a good transport Dave may sound better. Well to cut a long story short, I still preferred the HMS presentation, slightly more recessed behind the speakers, and just a little more relaxed, which I usually take as a positive. However, want really threw me, and was quite obvious, was the higher frequencies, things like cymbal splashes sounded distinctly more real and believable WITHOUT the HMS in the chain. Which had me scratching my head, but I am now wondering could that be down to the Farad3 I am using on HMS? I have the Wave stream cables along with a CAD GC1 connected to HMS and Dave. I may get the MCRU PSU and original SMPS back out to test, although from memory they bring comprises in other areas, like sound stage depth (for me anyway)


Wow, very cool to read this as we are one of the few. You have to hear if the cymbals is hotter, more forward or not? There should be the ability to hear it faster wherein you hear about more information on the first strike than over the HMS. You also have to turn off the HMS by unplugging the smps and bnc coz that can bring in distortion to the chain when doing the comparison.

Well, as I said previously, the Farad has a slower sound and it misses some info on the first strike...but even when I tried using an Ifi Elite mod I did, it's clean performance made the interference on the HMS even more apparent than the Hypsos. The Hypsos mod I did was able to slightly mask the HMS interference coz Hypsos has its own quality issues. And with the Ifi Elite mod, the first strike was still missing for me vs CDT direct to Dave. 

Since my CDT has OCXO and both powered with multi stage filtering and custom psu, it is ahead in terms of power quality over the HMS. The HMS became a weaker link in the chain due to its design and the internal interference it generates. This is all understandable as it is limited by form factor and cost. Implementing my psu solution may bring it to 20k usd levels. Anyways, it's not a knock on the HMS but rather, using it as a barometer with other chain setups one has. 

With that said, I didn't have the HMS 1.5ft away from the Dave. I had it on a second shelf just above and offset from the Dave (so not directly above). But even if I found out I had to keep a certain distance between the units. I may not have the desktop space to make that happen.

But point being in this and the Dave with the psu mod, psu quality is very important. Hence why I can listen to the Susvara and Stealth effortlessly with the Dave behind a line conditioner. The amp can effortlessly handle it and the Dave is not modded. 

I think it's better to discern these through HP especially with the DCA Stealth. The common issue with speakers is one doesn't know if it's the room or the chain that's limiting the boundary of the soundstage. People usually blame the room then they try high quality speaker cables + interconnects or a line conditioner and the soundstage just become bigger than the room it is in. There's also the resonance in the room that is difficult to solve. So HP it is for me.


----------



## Somatic

801evan said:


> Wow, very cool to read this as we are one of the few. You have to hear if the cymbals is hotter, more forward or not? There should be the ability to hear it faster wherein you hear about more information on the first strike than over the HMS. You also have to turn off the HMS by unplugging the smps and bnc coz that can bring in distortion to the chain when doing the comparison.
> 
> Well, as I said previously, the Farad has a slower sound and it misses some info on the first strike...but even when I tried using an Ifi Elite mod I did, it's clean performance made the interference on the HMS even more apparent than the Hypsos. The Hypsos mod I did was able to slightly mask the HMS interference coz Hypsos has its own quality issues. And with the Ifi Elite mod, the first strike was still missing for me vs CDT direct to Dave.
> 
> ...


Can you go into more detail regarding the IFI Elite mod? This will still go through the original Dave SMPS so wondering why it still has the positive effects? Have you tried Farad3 on the Dave or just HMS vs IFI Elite mod? Thanks.


----------



## 801evan (Jun 24, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Can you go into more detail regarding the IFI Elite mod? This will still go through the original Dave SMPS so wondering why it still has the positive effects? Have you tried Farad3 on the Dave or just HMS vs IFI Elite mod? Thanks.


Ifi elite mod was powering the HMS.
Ifi elite mod is captive lead with 17awg silver occ cable on the DC end, and HQ inlet. I then use a  silver occ power cable to go with it.

Dave is just with a line conditioner but it cleans it up so well that what I'm hearing is similar to what DC4 and 3stack farad users are saying. But yes, with the line conditioner it will still use the original Dave SMPS so...it kinda affirms that's how good the internal smps is as Rob mentions many times and I agree with his intention, design and logic. That internal smps just needs some help via a line conditioner, which may be a concept that Rob wouldn't necessarily agree with but,  his mains may be pristine while I live in the real world in a dumpy condominium. 😂 I also use a silver occ cable to power the Dave so there's that too.


----------



## burbster

801evan said:


> Wow, very cool to read this as we are one of the few. You have to hear if the cymbals is hotter, more forward or not? There should be the ability to hear it faster wherein you hear about more information on the first strike than over the HMS. You also have to turn off the HMS by unplugging the smps and bnc coz that can bring in distortion to the chain when doing the comparison.
> 
> Well, as I said previously, the Farad has a slower sound and it misses some info on the first strike...but even when I tried using an Ifi Elite mod I did, it's clean performance made the interference on the HMS even more apparent than the Hypsos. The Hypsos mod I did was able to slightly mask the HMS interference coz Hypsos has its own quality issues. And with the Ifi Elite mod, the first strike was still missing for me vs CDT direct to Dave.
> 
> ...


What CDT are you using? My CDT has an input for an external world clock, but I thought as the DAVE nor the HMS  have a clock input, it would be a waste, but is this correct?


----------



## 801evan

burbster said:


> What CDT are you using? My CDT has an input for an external world clock, but I thought as the DAVE nor the HMS  have a clock input, it would be a waste, but is this correct?


I use a sound warrior CDT and soundwarrior ocxo. Relatively cheap but since it's DC powered, I can scale the units without limits and I don't deal with any internal filter design that would give me issues like the Jay Audio. The ocxo is 44/48 frequency which is good because there's no conversion vs what a 10mhz clock would do. 

Basically it's not a waste if the HMS and Dave has no word clock input either as the quality is all in the bitstream via spdif and straight to the chord fpga.


----------



## burbster

801evan said:


> Ifi elite mod was powering the HMS.
> Ifi elite mod is captive lead with 17awg silver occ cable on the DC end, and HQ inlet. I then use a  silver occ power cable to go with it.
> 
> Dave is just with a line conditioner but it cleans it up so well that what I'm hearing is similar to what DC4 and 3stack farad users are saying. But yes, with the line conditioner it will still use the original Dave SMPS so...it kinda affirms that's how good the internal smps is as Rob mentions many times and I agree with his intention, design and logic. That internal smps just needs some help via a line conditioner, which may be a concept that Rob wouldn't necessarily agree with but,  his mains may be pristine while I live in the real world in a dumpy condominium. 😂 I also use a silver occ cable to power the Dave so there's that too.


I have paid much attention to my mains. I have a dedicated audio consumer unit, complete with separate earth, with a single radial circuit in specialist screened 'hi fi' mains to a furtech rhodium outlet, AQ hurricane into AQ Niagara 5000, with another AQ Hurricane to the DAVE. Any even then, when I upgraded to the DC4, the delta was large!


----------



## 801evan

burbster said:


> Any even then, when I upgraded to the DC4, the delta was large!


Oh definitely. I can hear there's room to improve in the Dave on my setup which the DC4 can bring (to what heights I have to rely on my imagination). And my other DAC experiments have scaled over the Dave but my whole process with the Dave was what I have shared, where having a transport system that can exceed the HMS and having the Dave effortlessly drive the Stealth and Susvara as a stock unit and I got to achieve it. The learning lesson was further focusing on the transport chain and that's what I've been doing since...and that I don't need tubes or a speaker amp for headphones.


----------



## shuttlepod

Reactcore said:


> Did you listened solely on speakers.. or did you also use headphones on Dave's amp.. preferably with only one source connected to Dave
> 
> Im trying to see if Arc6 benefits are In Dave or more in a external Amp


Good question. I have listened to both headphones and speakers. Headphones were HiFiMan HE1000 connected via WyWires Platinum cable directly to DAVE. Source material, served up by my Taiko Extreme, was the same. IMO, the ARC6 benefits headphone listening just as much as it benefits speaker-based listening. I also personally know several headphone-only listeners who report the same benefits with ARC6. The ARC6 directly benefits DAVE. DAVE simply passes on these benefits to an external amp.


----------



## audio_1

burbster said:


> I only have the standard DC4 but my experience was remarkably similar, you now have me lusting after the arc6 upgrade  though! Only thing that I would add, is in my case, with mscaler, Dave and dc4 plus cables I am not far off a £20k dac setup. Obviously I have build this up gradually over time, and I never imagined I would ever spend this much when I started out, but as a result, I have never directly compared by setup to a £20k dac, I wonder how it would fair?


Dave, mScaler and arc6 would be much better!


----------



## audio_1

audio_1 said:


> Dave, mScaler and arc6 would be much better!


I can't understand all the chat about the mScaler making Dave sound brighter and fatiguing. In my system Dave and the Blu2 are far more musical, darker sounding with deeper more resolved bass than Dave on its own. I would never consider listening without mScaling. The Opto DX, 4 metres distance between digital components and Dave, separate digital and analogue power lines from the consumer and conditioned mains must contribute to this.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jun 24, 2022)

I think, not sure but in my journey i discovered that the simpeler my audio path became last few weeks and the better and cleaner the power icm less feedback in your analogue part the more harm the scaler or scaling in general does.

I returned to my old and previous setup, amp, no clean lps, stock dave and scaler. In there the scaler seems to add all the things mentioned, timing more space etc. I all heared it in the past so now i did again. In that setupnthe scaler works, period. Returning to a no (less) amp feedback and cleanpower and modded dave. The scaler adds glare in the mids to high sections. Ass somebody stated few posts back, it seems like the cymbals and gitars sound more natural and musical. Effortless i would describe it. Putting back the scaler indeed adds detail but draws my artention away from the music and more in the detail.

I am pretty sure this is all system and synergy depended but i hear now from others sort off doing the same path the same results. Less is more and more musical.

But in my previous setups the scaler did a good job. But now my live recordings or just redicouless open and with no fatiqeu anywere. 4 days on a row not being occupied with my setup but just listening, whole albums and alot of old stuff that just sound insane…..

And i am sure dc4 arc is insane briljant but for 1/4 of the money i also think the farad is insanely briljant. Just try whats in your budget and enjoy. All these power upgrades from respected designers will work a okay…
I love the nissan gtr r35 others hate it and want a ferrari both are pretty fast and drive excellent. Buy what you like and can…

Thats my audio nirvana…..


----------



## Triode User

801evan said:


> Dave is just with a line conditioner but it cleans it up so well that what I'm hearing is similar to what DC4 and 3stack farad users are saying.


As always one has to treat what anyone says as being hearsay (including myself) until you have heard it for yourself!!



801evan said:


> That internal smps just needs some help via a line conditioner


On my way towards buying my first Sean Jacobs power supply for the Dave I first tried taking out the Dave smps and putting it in a separate metal case connected to the Dave by an umbilical for the three  DC supplies. That in itself made a worthwhile improvement to the sound (smoother etc, the usual stuff) although the results of the experiment were dwarfed by using the then DC3. No amount of mains treatment is going to achieve that sort of benefit. I think you might be surprised just how much more sound quality there is available above and beyond what you are already hearing with your mains treatments.


----------



## 801evan

MvRBE10 said:


> I think, not sure but in my journey i discovered that the simpeler my audio path became last few weeks and the better and cleaner the power icm less feedback in your analogue part the more harm the scaler or scaling in general does.
> 
> I returned to my old and previous setup, amp, no clean lps, stock dave and scaler. In there the scaler seems to add all the things mentioned, timing more space etc. I all heared it in the past so now i did again. In that setupnthe scaler works, period. Returning to a no (less) amp feedback and cleanpower and modded dave. The scaler adds glare in the mids to high sections. Ass somebody stated few posts back, it seems like the cymbals and gitars sound more natural and musical. Effortless i would describe it. Putting back the scaler indeed adds detail but draws my artention away from the music and more in the detail.
> 
> ...


I glossed over your previous posts and starting to understand this now. It's similar to what I'm saying. I even hear the sound get worse just turning on the HMS due to its noise but I guess this why most ppl say to keep it a few feet away from devices. Though with the HMS in the chain on my end, things sound slower and duller. It made my phone and CDT sound closer together, where the phone got better and the CDT got worse.


----------



## shuttlepod (Jun 24, 2022)

burbster said:


> I only have the standard DC4 but my experience was remarkably similar, you now have me lusting after the arc6 upgrade  though! Only thing that I would add, is in my case, with mscaler, Dave and dc4 plus cables I am not far off a £20k dac setup. Obviously I have build this up gradually over time, and I never imagined I would ever spend this much when I started out, but as a result, I have never directly compared by setup to a £20k dac, I wonder how it would fair?





burbster said:


> I only have the standard DC4 but my experience was remarkably similar, you now have me lusting after the arc6 upgrade  though! Only thing that I would add, is in my case, with mscaler, Dave and dc4 plus cables I am not far off a £20k dac setup. Obviously I have build this up gradually over time, and I never imagined I would ever spend this much when I started out, but as a result, I have never directly compared by setup to a £20k dac, I wonder how it would fair?


This is certainly a good question that can only be answered by individual listeners making comparisons. I can add two points that may be worth thinking about.

First, I own a dCS Bartok with headphone amp that now retails for $19,950 USD. I use it in a headphone system in a vacation home. Recently I inserted it into my main system and compared it to my then-DC3 powered DAVE. In my system and on individual tracks, I sometimes preferred the Bartok to the DC3-powered DAVE. But on many tracks, probably most, I preferred DAVE. That's some indication of at least where a DC3-powered DAVE stacks up against the competition. But see below.

The second point relates to PGGB, which doesn't seem to get a lot of attention on this thread. With files that have been remastered using PGGB, I found that the DAVE-DC3 combination absolutely killed the Bartok, playing the same PGGB files up to the limits of the Bartok's upsampling (352/384). Not even remotely close. And given a choice, I will always listen to music that has been PGGB'd -- it is in a completely different class than the same music that has not been PGGB'd. With the DAVE now powered by ARC6, the gap is even wider.

PGGB was developed with DAVE in mind and scales incredibly well with DAVE. It far outperforms MScaler (which I owned) and HQP (which I used before moving on to PGGB). The license is not expensive but you do need to dedicate a fairly powerful computer for processing/remastering albums and tunes you would like to PGGB (and that takes time as well). Other candidates for state of the art DACs (think dCS, MSB, Lampizator, TotalDAC, etc.) do not work as well with PGGB but of course have their own sound signature and you may or may not prefer that signature. But for me, the ability to bring out the best in PGGB files gives DAVE a unique advantage over other top DACs.


----------



## 801evan (Jun 24, 2022)

Triode User said:


> As always one has to treat what anyone says as being hearsay (including myself) until you have heard it for yourself!!
> 
> 
> On my way towards buying my first Sean Jacobs power supply for the Dave I first tried taking out the Dave smps and putting it in a separate metal case connected to the Dave by an umbilical for the three  DC supplies. That in itself made a worthwhile improvement to the sound (smoother etc, the usual stuff) although the results of the experiment were dwarfed by using the then DC3. No amount of mains treatment is going to achieve that sort of benefit. I think you might be surprised just how much more sound quality there is available above and beyond what you are already hearing with your mains treatments.


Yes. The point being was as expressed in multiple posts that while I agree that the Dave can be underwhelming straight to wall (or whatever) + USB input, with driving Susvara + Stealth, as others have claimed, giving it a good transport + using spdif input + line conditioner makes what is a stock Dave a very good device especially for people who are apprehensive + intimidated + resource limited in getting a psu mod upgrade and how that and an HMS seems to be the limited path in pursuit of a higher quality sound. Dave + susvara alone already was giving good sub bass and wasn't clipping on Cradle to Grave. Meanwhile, more than a few people find the Holo + ahb2 or Accuphase quite thin on the bones or lacks bass. And again, many ppl have criticized over the decision made on incorporating a cheap smps and my posts demonstrates it ain't that bad. Yes it can be improved upon of course, but it's not bad and don't judge it straight to wall.


----------



## audio_1 (Jun 24, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> I think, not sure but in my journey i discovered that the simpeler my audio path became last few weeks and the better and cleaner the power icm less feedback in your analogue part the more harm the scaler or scaling in general does.
> 
> I returned to my old and previous setup, amp, no clean lps, stock dave and scaler. In there the scaler seems to add all the things mentioned, timing more space etc. I all heared it in the past so now i did again. In that setupnthe scaler works, period. Returning to a no (less) amp feedback and cleanpower and modded dave. The scaler adds glare in the mids to high sections. Ass somebody stated few posts back, it seems like the cymbals and gitars sound more natural and musical. Effortless i would describe it. Putting back the scaler indeed adds detail but draws my artention away from the music and more in the detail.
> 
> ...


I can only assume from the above that distance and optical connections between the Dave and mScaler work. Distance is a free upgrade, but really only possible with optical connections. Has any one tried 4 or 5 metre dual BNC cables?


----------



## Somatic

MvRBE10 said:


> I think, not sure but in my journey i discovered that the simpeler my audio path became last few weeks and the better and cleaner the power icm less feedback in your analogue part the more harm the scaler or scaling in general does.
> 
> I returned to my old and previous setup, amp, no clean lps, stock dave and scaler. In there the scaler seems to add all the things mentioned, timing more space etc. I all heared it in the past so now i did again. In that setupnthe scaler works, period. Returning to a no (less) amp feedback and cleanpower and modded dave. The scaler adds glare in the mids to high sections. Ass somebody stated few posts back, it seems like the cymbals and gitars sound more natural and musical. Effortless i would describe it. Putting back the scaler indeed adds detail but draws my artention away from the music and more in the detail.
> 
> ...


I'm with you. Tried the M-Scaler but the delta seems low to me. I sense additional soundstage, slightly better timbre, bass notes are more easily portrayed but I also get additional noise that comes out as slight sibilance on certain tracks. The improvement for me is 2-8% very slight.

It was not what I expected. Now I am switching gears. Making the setup as minimalistic as possible. Solo Dave + Farad3 upgrade with higher efficiency headphones (Sol P, LCD5). Selling Susvara and M-scaler. Will upgrade to silver cable and get a better source but that's it. I'll call it End Game at this point. I need to move on from Headfi at this time. Its been an addiction. Similar to social media for some people. I am constantly reading on my phone and desktop. Using it as an escape and something to obsess about. Met some cool people and wish them the best of luck.

Time to believe I'm near the top and come to the grips that I will never reach the absolute top.


----------



## Powersquat

Triode User said:


> It is not subtle.
> 
> As an aside, the Innuos Statement streamer uses the DC4 power supplies and Innuos have recently launched an upgraded version of the Statement where the only change is to use ARC6 power instead of DC4. The two versions were exhibited side by side at last weekend's North West Audio Show in the UK so one could swop between the two in the Innuos room. I am told by those who heard them that the difference was not subtle. Deeper and firmer bass, sweeter mids and top end etc etc. And this is a purely digital device.



I was speaking with Marc Fanthorpe yesterday, Marc is the owner of Fanthorpe HiFi, it was his display at the show on which the 2 Statements were being demonstrated, I believe Sean Jacobs was on hand to perform the demonstration.

Marc confirmed to me that the upgrade in performance when the unit with the ARC6 pst was introduced was very palpable., apparently every aspect of the musical performance appeared to have taken an uplift, as Nick suggests there was quite some buzz in the room when Sean Jacobs was demonstrating. 

For anyone interested the system being used consisted of the 2 Inuous Statements and associated paraphernalia, the Chord Mscaler, Chord Dave, the Luxman C900U preamp, the new Luxman M10X power amp and PMC Fact 12 Signature speakers.


----------



## Triode User

Somatic said:


> I'm with you. Tried the M-Scaler but the delta seems low to me. I sense additional soundstage, slightly better timbre, bass notes are more easily portrayed but I also get additional noise that comes out as slight sibilance on certain tracks. The improvement for me is 2-8% very slight.
> 
> It was not what I expected. Now I am switching gears. Making the setup as minimalistic as possible. Solo Dave + Farad3 upgrade with higher efficiency headphones (Sol P, LCD5). Selling Susvara and M-scaler. Will upgrade to silver cable and get a better source but that's it. I'll call it End Game at this point. I need to move on from Headfi at this time. Its been an addiction. Similar to social media for some people. I am constantly reading on my phone and desktop. Using it as an escape and something to obsess about. Met some cool people and wish them the best of luck.
> 
> Time to believe I'm near the top and come to the grips that I will never reach the absolute top.


If you might permit me to suggest that there is benefit in taking a lot of this much more slowly. I have had Dave since more or less when it first came out and I certainly had one of th efirst Mscalers in the UK. I still own and use both of them daily and do not ever consider doing away with the Mscaler.

I suggest being less influenced by what some are saying on here and maybe just quietly get to know what Dave and Mscaler can achieve, There have been a few posts suggesting that it if you have an upgraded power supply to Dave from the Netherlands then the Mscaler is superfluous or worse might even degrade the sound. Instead take your own time and make up your own mind. I do not even slightly recognise these conclusions as being accurate and the Mscaler is a huge part of my musical enjoyment despite having an ARC6 Dave. 

SLOW DOWN!!


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jun 24, 2022)

Indeed good advice take time learn enjoy but try it yourself and go from there. We all seek something different and the same in music. You cant walk this road in two weeks. Today its no scaler for me but i dont rule out anything so when things shift it can be put back into the chain… its a journy take it slow indeed.


----------



## Triode User

Powersquat said:


> I was speaking with Marc Fanthorpe yesterday, Marc is the owner of Fanthorpe HiFi, it was his display at the show on which the 2 Statements were being demonstrated, I believe Sean Jacobs was on hand to perform the demonstration.
> 
> Marc confirmed to me that the upgrade in performance when the unit with the ARC6 pst was introduced was very palpable., apparently every aspect of the musical performance appeared to have taken an uplift, as Nick suggests there was quite some buzz in the room when Sean Jacobs was demonstrating.
> 
> For anyone interested the system being used consisted of the 2 Inuous Statements and associated paraphernalia, the Chord Mscaler, Chord Dave, the Luxman C900U preamp, the new Luxman M10X power amp and PMC Fact 12 Signature speakers.


 Ah yes, I have bought all of my Chord gear from Fanthorpes over many years and they are a good dealer. 

Indeed I first heard the Innuos Statement in their room at the North West Audio show a few years ago when they did a similar demo hot switching between different streamers in the same system. It was a very compelling demonstration.

As it happens Sean Jacobs telephoned me this afternoon to have a chat and we talked about that demo with the two Statements. I think Sean always finds it interesting to hear the fruits of his designs because he designs as an engineer and does not rely on listening to sway his design. Indeed I think the first time he had heard his ARC6 power supply was when he came to my house and heard it powering my Dave.


----------



## zen87192

Somatic said:


> Now I am switching gears. Making the setup as minimalistic as possible. Solo Dave + Farad3 upgrade with higher efficiency headphones (Sol P, LCD5).


That's exactly what Ill be running soon. My Farad 3 upgrade is en route from Stanstead Airport as we speak. I have LCD-5's which are pretty awesome. Awaiting delivery and installation with great interest. 

@Powersquat - yes.... Marc at Fanthorpes HiFi is an awesome guy and his Customer Service is outstanding. I recommend anyone in the UK to get in touch with him for their Audio requirements.


----------



## Somatic

Triode User said:


> If you might permit me to suggest that there is benefit in taking a lot of this much more slowly. I have had Dave since more or less when it first came out and I certainly had one of th efirst Mscalers in the UK. I still own and use both of them daily and do not ever consider doing away with the Mscaler.
> 
> I suggest being less influenced by what some are saying on here and maybe just quietly get to know what Dave and Mscaler can achieve, There have been a few posts suggesting that it if you have an upgraded power supply to Dave from the Netherlands then the Mscaler is superfluous or worse might even degrade the sound. Instead take your own time and make up your own mind. I do not even slightly recognise these conclusions as being accurate and the Mscaler is a huge part of my musical enjoyment despite having an ARC6 Dave.
> 
> SLOW DOWN!!


I’m respectfully listening and understand your suggestion. Thanks. 

I understand you like the Mscaler and have used it for a long time. I am also using my ears and do not feel the improvements justify the price for me. No attack on anyone that does. Just me personally it is not for me. If the delta was larger for me I’d stick with it. I hear a slight difference but honestly was expecting more.


----------



## livebylake

Somatic said:


> I’m respectfully listening and understand your suggestion. Thanks.
> 
> I understand you like the Mscaler and have used it for a long time. I am also using my ears and do not feel the improvements justify the price for me. No attack on anyone that does. Just me personally it is not for me. If the delta was larger for me I’d stick with it. I hear a slight difference but honestly was expecting more.


After reading the thousands of pages in DAVA and M Scaler, it's very easy to fall into the rabbit hole of tons of boxes/connectors/money and trying hard to "hear" meaningful difference to justify the cost. Looks like you survived!


----------



## Somatic

Also I would like to add about "slowing down" when acquiring gear. Life is short. Some of us might not live as long as we think. I rather try and reach close to audio nirvana and then stop gear chasing. Enjoy the music and focus on my other hobbies.


----------



## MvRBE10

Somatic said:


> Also I would like to add about "slowing down" when acquiring gear. Life is short. Some of us might not live as long as we think. I rather try and reach close to audio nirvana and then stop gear chasing. Enjoy the music and focus on my other hobbies.


Point taken… its the music thats always the most enjoyable… indeed got some other hobbies to 👍🏻 . I think what i ment was dont rush into it but i get the feeling you know pretty well what your doing and absorb fast. Than its can save you indeed.


----------



## Somatic (Jun 24, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> Point taken… its the music thats always the most enjoyable… indeed got some other hobbies to 👍🏻 . I think what i ment was dont rush into it but i get the feeling you know pretty well what your doing and absorb fast. Than its can save you indeed.


Sorry I was directed response to @Triode User. The hobby with hifi is super fun. Not going to lie. Expensive but fun .

I understand one can take things slow and aquire new gear with time but I feel unless I’m pretty sold that I have attained a reasonable end game setup, I will always be thinking about a new upgrades etc.

I’d like to streamline the process and get  to a reasonable end game so I can disengage from the hifi upgrade train. It’s a lot of fun but I can focus on a lot of other things as well.

Been learning a lot on what I like and dislike and which path I’d like to go down to reach my goal.

Fun journey of learning.


----------



## Ciggavelli

The longer I'm in the hobby, the more I learn that there is no end game.  That's fun and also depressing


----------



## zen87192

The Endgame is only reached when you run out of money 💰 🤣


----------



## livebylake

zen87192 said:


> The Endgame is only reached when you run out of money 💰 🤣


Having an audio-fund-approving wife will also help to reach the Endgame, she is usually wise and won't be willing to try hard enough to hear difference.


----------



## alxw0w

Somatic said:


> I'm with you. Tried the M-Scaler but the delta seems low to me. I sense additional soundstage, slightly better timbre, bass notes are more easily portrayed but I also get additional noise that comes out as slight sibilance on certain tracks. The improvement for me is 2-8% very slight.
> 
> It was not what I expected. Now I am switching gears. Making the setup as minimalistic as possible. Solo Dave + Farad3 upgrade with higher efficiency headphones (Sol P, LCD5). Selling Susvara and M-scaler. Will upgrade to silver cable and get a better source but that's it. I'll call it End Game at this point. I need to move on from Headfi at this time. Its been an addiction. Similar to social media for some people. I am constantly reading on my phone and desktop. Using it as an escape and something to obsess about. Met some cool people and wish them the best of luck.
> 
> Time to believe I'm near the top and come to the grips that I will never reach the absolute top.


Cliffhanger ❤️
Probably one of the most underrated movies ever.


----------



## ZappaMan

alxw0w said:


> Cliffhanger ❤️
> Probably one of the most underrated movies ever.


What’s it about ?


----------



## MvRBE10

Rocky


----------



## Somatic

MvRBE10 said:


> Rocky


Best Rocky.


----------



## zen87192 (Jun 24, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Best Rocky.


"If he dies..... he dies....
" A...d...r...i...a...n...!


----------



## Somatic

zen87192 said:


> "If he dies..... he dies...."


Drago has so much punching power hehe ... 1850 lbs of pressure!!


----------



## zen87192

Somatic said:


> Drago has so much punching power hehe ... 1850 lbs of pressure!!



Like me at the FunFair with the Punch Ball Machine! .... Yup.... 🥱


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> The longer I'm in the hobby, the more I learn that there is no end game.  That's fun and also depressing


Lol. End game for me is just running out of upgrade plug  and socket options atm. So end game is just running out of options to buy more. 😂😂😭😭


----------



## alxw0w

ZappaMan said:


> What’s it about ?


Typical American hero-action movie.
If you liked Rocky and Rambo, you won't be disappointed with Cliffhanger either


----------



## alxw0w

801evan said:


> Lol. End game for me is just running out of upgrade plug  and socket options atm. So end game is just running out of options to buy more. 😂😂😭😭


Or running out of money


----------



## 801evan

alxw0w said:


> Or running out of money


Money will always find a way. New product releases are slower. Lol.


----------



## zen87192

I'm still waiting for my DAVE/Farad 3 power upgrade to arrive... these FedEx people are taking forever. There's been no update in my FedEx account or directly from them. It still seems to be stuck in Stanstead Airport. Wow! This is unbelievable.


----------



## SteveHulk

zen87192 said:


> I'm still waiting for my DAVE/Farad 3 power upgrade to arrive... these FedEx people are taking forever. There's been no update in my FedEx account or directly from them. It still seems to be stuck in Stanstead Airport. Wow! This is unbelievable.


I know, this whole Post-Brexit thing totally sucks. 

Have you chased them? It sounds like it might be awaiting taxes to be paid.


----------



## PhenixS1970

If someone is looking for an excellent streaming transport, my Auralic Aries G1 is listed in the classifieds.
Raising here as I used it with DAVE with great result.


----------



## zen87192 (Jun 25, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> I know, this whole Post-Brexit thing totally sucks.
> 
> Have you chased them? It sounds like it might be awaiting taxes to be paid.


Yeah... I have phoned them and they quoted 'delays'. I paid the Import Taxes and fees the day after it landed just in case of additional issues or queries 😅. Fat lot of use that did....
In addition to that FedEx headache I ordered a pair of Stax Edifier Spirit S3 Wireless Headphones from Amazon UK as they got rave reviews from Headfiers.... I received a parcel yesterday containing a pair of cheap used Computer headphones and a used Wall Stud Detector! 🤣 Obvioulsy, an Amazon internal fraud which is being put right immediately due to my 'loyal status' with them. Can't knock 'em for the immediate resolve but..... crikey.... a Wall Stud Detector! 🤣


----------



## yoktjah

Does anyone know if there's a DAVE2 coming out?


----------



## chesebert

Various WIP NPIs nothing announced.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 25, 2022)

zen87192 said:


> Yeah... I have phoned them and they quoted 'delays'. I paid the Import Taxes and fees the day after it landed just in case of additional issues or queries 😅. Fat lot of use that did....
> In addition to that FedEx headache I ordered a pair of Stax Edifier Spirit S3 Wireless Headphones from Amazon UK as they got rave reviews from Headfiers.... I received a parcel yesterday containing a pair of cheap used Computer headphones and a used Wall Stud Detector! 🤣 Obvioulsy, an Amazon internal fraud which is being put right immediately due to my 'loyal status' with them. Can't knock 'em for the immediate resolve but..... crikey.... a Wall Stud Detector! 🤣


I paid the taxes on my Farads to FedEx last week. The transaction was pending on my account for several days. Today I checked and the transaction has been completed according to my credit card company.

Also today I received an invoice for the same amount in the post. No acknowledgment that this has already been paid. Just the invoice.

I am now awaiting their attempt to take the same fees for the second time.

This is why I refused to pay by direct transfer. If the credit card company pay the same fee twice, that's on them not me. I'll just ask for my money back and they'll have to duke it out with FedEx. And good luck with that.

FedEx is a bloated dinosaur sprawled on the ground heaving its last breaths while meteorites rain down from a fiery sky.

If I never have to deal with them again that'll still be too soon.

On a related note, the valves I returned to Italy are still stuck in UPS customs clearance at Bologna Airport.

It seems UPS is ignoring my designation of "used audio valves" and my statement that they originated in Italy AND the receipt from me that they have which shows that they were paid for and shipped from Italy.

Giacomo Boraldi from Audio Gears in Bologna is now going to have to struggle to avoid the situation where, between the two of us, £400 in taxes will have been paid for these valves to go precisely nowhere.

I can't even recoup my half of that. Innocent soul that I am, it didn't occur to me that I couldn't file a claim after the valves were shipped. Later that same day I looked up the forms online to be informed that I had had to make a claim at least 48 hours before shipping. So that £200 is gone 🤬


----------



## JTbbb

I shipped a pair of tubes to the States earlier this month with DHL…utter catastrophe.


----------



## Triode User

JTbbb said:


> I shipped a pair of tubes to the States earlier this month with DHL…utter catastrophe.


I ship stuff to the States every week with DHL. They are very reliable and normally it gets there in 2 or 3 days.

What was the problem with your shipment?


----------



## Powersquat

Triode User said:


> Ah yes, I have bought all of my Chord gear from Fanthorpes over many years and they are a good dealer.
> 
> Indeed I first heard the Innuos Statement in their room at the North West Audio show a few years ago when they did a similar demo hot switching between different streamers in the same system. It was a very compelling demonstration.
> 
> As it happens Sean Jacobs telephoned me this afternoon to have a chat and we talked about that demo with the two Statements. I think Sean always finds it interesting to hear the fruits of his designs because he designs as an engineer and does not rely on listening to sway his design. Indeed I think the first time he had heard his ARC6 power supply was when he came to my house and heard it powering my Dave.



I always try to deal with Marc whenever possible, in fact he's due to bring the new Luxman M10X down to me on Thursday, almost a 600 mile round trip for him, that's great customer service.

I'm seriously leaning towards the Arc6 over the Farad 3 box unit, a longer lead time and more expensive, but I feel it's the more elegant solution and certainly shouldn't lack anything in performance.


----------



## Powersquat

zen87192 said:


> @Powersquat - yes.... Marc at Fanthorpes HiFi is an awesome guy and his Customer Service is outstanding. I recommend anyone in the UK to get in touch with him for their Audio requirements.



I can only amplify your  sentiments, dealing with Marc Fanthorpe is a real pleasure, honesty, integrity and knowledgable are so important, and thankfully he's a really nice guy to boot.


----------



## Icenine2

Dave arrived yesterday and hooked it up today w/MScaler. It is spectacular. Just about 5 hours on it. Sounds incredilble.
I still haven't figured out if there's a display Dim or not.
Now I can work on a new Espresso Machine/Grinder setup!


----------



## Somatic

Icenine2 said:


> Dave arrived yesterday and hooked it up today w/MScaler. It is spectacular. Just about 5 hours on it. Sounds incredilble.
> I still haven't figured out if there's a display Dim or not.
> Now I can work on a new Espresso Machine/Grinder setup!


Put it in Display 4 and it will turn off after a few seconds


----------



## Icenine2

Thanks. I have no idea how to put it in different display modes.


----------



## Icenine2

The older versions have all these options on remote. New is five buttons


----------



## Reactcore (Jun 27, 2022)

Icenine2 said:


> The older versions have all these options on remote. New is five buttons


You cant do more with the old remote on Dave..it has buttons for other components.. even a TV..

Of its 45 buttons i only use its standby one actually😄 Its the reason Chord changed it i guess


----------



## Triode User

Icenine2 said:


> Thanks. I have no idea how to put it in different display modes.


Use the silver small button on the DAVE at 6 O’clock position under teh main volume knob. Press it repeatedly until the Display options is highlighted. Then use the 3 O’clock small button to scroll through until you get Display 4 showing. Thats it. Leave it alone and it will set to that after a few seconds.


----------



## alxw0w

And make sure that headphones are disconnected from Dave.
Otherwise screen option in setting is not visible.


----------



## Triode User

Reactcore said:


> You cant do more with the old remote on Dave..it has buttons for other components.. even a TV..
> 
> Of its 45 buttons i only use its standby one actually😄 Its the reason Chord changed it i guess


Haha, well I never use standby so I don’t use that button on the remote. However I do use the volume control on the remote all the time.


----------



## Rob Watts

audio_1 said:


> I can only assume from the above that distance and optical connections between the Dave and mScaler work. Distance is a free upgrade, but really only possible with optical connections. Has any one tried 4 or 5 metre dual BNC cables?



5m BNC to BNC cables work fine - they perhaps sounded slightly better than 2m (regular quality 75 ohm cables), certainly no worse.

Talking of 5m, @Chester Rockwell recently messaged me that a 5m (yes five metres) of KableDirekt Toslink/Toslink plastic fibre cable worked perfectly with 192k. Intrigued I bought a set, and indeed it worked perfectly on my scaler. Moreover, it sounded identical to the 2m glass fibre Lifatec cable I use. Pretty amazing that a 5m £9.50 plastic fibre works perfectly at 192k. They also sell a 15m one - perhaps getting that to work at 192k is a step too far...


----------



## Reactcore

Rob Watts said:


> 5m BNC to BNC cables work fine - they perhaps sounded slightly better than 2m (regular quality 75 ohm cables), certainly no worse.
> 
> Talking of 5m, @Chester Rockwell recently messaged me that a 5m (yes five metres) of KableDirekt Toslink/Toslink plastic fibre cable worked perfectly with 192k. Intrigued I bought a set, and indeed it worked perfectly on my scaler. Moreover, it sounded identical to the 2m glass fibre Lifatec cable I use. Pretty amazing that a 5m £9.50 plastic fibre works perfectly at 192k. They also sell a 15m one - perhaps getting that to work at 192k is a step too far...


It seems distance is not so much the limiting factor.. but tight fit and alignment of the plug is..

Are you using those to keep Mscaler at a distance?


----------



## Rob Watts

Reactcore said:


> It seems distance is not so much the limiting factor.. but tight fit and alignment of the plug is..
> 
> Are you using those to keep Mscaler at a distance?


No I got the 2m Lifatec for ease of usage within my lab. And I got the 5m KableDirekt to see if it would work. But 5m might be useful on recording sessions.


----------



## thunder 99

Any idea when the DAVE2 will be out guys?


----------



## MvRBE10

First Scaler2 and perhaps after that Dave2 who nows….


----------



## Triode User

thunder 99 said:


> Any idea when the DAVE2 will be out guys?


Years away, if there is ever a Dave 2. The master (RW) last said it is not even his ‘to do’ list.


----------



## jcn3

just looping back on the optical cable discussion . . .  using the sys concept cable (1m), i've been listening to 192k and dsd64 files all morning (and many days before) using my qutest.  experience the same with my dave.


----------



## Slim1970

thunder 99 said:


> Any idea when the DAVE2 will be out guys?


No rush, the Dave in its current state still outperforms a great many of DAC's


----------



## Icenine2

Triode User said:


> Use the silver small button on the DAVE at 6 O’clock position under teh main volume knob. Press it repeatedly until the Display options is highlighted. Then use the 3 O’clock small button to scroll through until you get Display 4 showing. Thats it. Leave it alone and it will set to that after a few seconds.


Thank you! I had my headphones plugged in and never saw the display.
Now if I could only get Display 2 to do they same trick. Not a fan of the color scheme for Display 4.


----------



## Icenine2

JTbbb said:


> I shipped a pair of tubes to the States earlier this month with DHL…utter catastrophe.


I've had a few Bicycle parts/clothes shipped DHL the past few months w/same bad issue. For some reason the DHL would sit in customs for 10-14 days at Chicago O'Hare airport. Literally 20 minutes from where I live. FedEx from Europe woud be here in a few days. No clue. It used to be the opposite.


----------



## JTbbb

Triode User said:


> I ship stuff to the States every week with DHL. They are very reliable and normally it gets there in 2 or 3 days.
> 
> What was the problem with your shipment?


I gave DHL a teeny weeny little task that should of been a breeze for them. The following morning after a late afternoon parcel pickup I realised I had made an error. I phoned DHL and a very nice lady tells me, no worries we can stop and return the package as it hasn’t reached our shipping partners, nor can it leave the uk anyway without the custom’s or itemised invoice paperwork attached.
SEVERAL days of many many emails from several individuals within DHL, from the uk and the states, telling me the package hasn’t left the uk, that it has and is in the states, and now can’t go to it’s destination as it doesn’t have the correct paperwork, that I will have to pay a fee to get it back from the states, then an email that I won’t have to pay. I am told again don’t worry it cannot be in the states, no paperwork. Then where the heck is it!!

The chap I sent the tubes to sent me a very nice message to say he found a package in his drive…yup they were the tubes! And he’s very pleased with them!

I am sure DHL are ok, but this shouldn’t have caused such a circus!


----------



## zen87192

JTbbb said:


> I am sure DHL are ok, but this shouldn’t have caused such a circus!


Yup... FedEx are just the same. Paid my Import Fees immediately... now they don't know where the package is. 🤯


----------



## JTbbb

I’ve never had trouble with Royal Mail. I have a larger and heavier package to send soon am going to try Royal Mail ParcelForce.


----------



## Triode User

JTbbb said:


> I gave DHL a teeny weeny little task that should of been a breeze for them. The following morning after a late afternoon parcel pickup I realised I had made an error. I phoned DHL and a very nice lady tells me, no worries we can stop and return the package as it hasn’t reached our shipping partners, nor can it leave the uk anyway without the custom’s or itemised invoice paperwork attached.
> SEVERAL days of many many emails from several individuals within DHL, from the uk and the states, telling me the package hasn’t left the uk, that it has and is in the states, and now can’t go to it’s destination as it doesn’t have the correct paperwork, that I will have to pay a fee to get it back from the states, then an email that I won’t have to pay. I am told again don’t worry it cannot be in the states, no paperwork. Then where the heck is it!!
> 
> The chap I sent the tubes to sent me a very nice message to say he found a package in his drive…yup they were the tubes! And he’s very pleased with them!
> ...


To be fair to DHL they operate the PLT system now, (PaperLess Transfer), so there is no paperwork that is attached to the package. There is a skill to providing the correct expert codes but if one gets it right then it generally takes 2 to 3 days to arrive at the address in the USA from the UK. This is not DHL’s fault or Brexit or anyones. It is just the way things are done now. Attach the correct commodity code, correct export code and correct declaration of value and then the machines will pass it through the system.

By the way, exporting to the EU is far worse than the usa or indeed anywhere else in the world due to their beyond comprehension amounts of red tape.  



JTbbb said:


> I’ve never had trouble with Royal Mail. I have a larger and heavier package to send soon am going to try Royal Mail ParcelForce.


ParcelForce are not generally better then DHL. You still need to do your research and use the correct commodity code  and correct export code. Personally i would prefer to use DHL.


----------



## Somatic

Crossfeed on Dave seems much better than TT2. I use 1 on my SolPs and 2 on the LCD5s. It makes the sound stage a bit less wide but at the same time gives the music a more out of head experience. Listening to the HD600 with crossfeed 1 and HF Fil On ... sounds glorious.


----------



## Rob Watts

The code for cross-feed on TT2 is identical to Dave. That said, the benefits of cross-feed maybe more apparent with Dave because the perception of depth and detail resolution is much better with Dave compared to TT2.


----------



## chesebert

Slim1970 said:


> No rush, the Dave in its current state still outperforms a great many of DAC's


The question is is Dave better than many current gen $15-30k dacs from the top brands that focus on digital audio? I know what my answer is.


----------



## zen87192

chesebert said:


> The question is is Dave better than many current gen $15-30k dacs from the top brands that focus on digital audio? I know what my answer is.


That may be answered soon when the Choral MScaler (2) is introduced. My prediction is that many ex-DAVE owners may return once this is released with it possibly gaining glowing reviews.


----------



## audio_1

Triode User said:


> By the way, exporting to the EU is far worse than the usa or indeed anywhere else in the world due to their beyond comprehension amounts of red tape.


That's to protect the single market. Makes sense from an EU perspective. Problems only occur when you leave. Countries, generally want to join due to all the advantages!


----------



## MvRBE10

Just readed an artikel that the uk does not have had 1 advantage of leaving the eu. All promesis made did not come out. They now have to move on and struggle forward…


----------



## nwavesailor

Politics free zone on HeadFi, please.

Many of us go here to escape politics!


----------



## sm60

chesebert said:


> The question is is Dave better than many current gen $15-30k dacs from the top brands that focus on digital audio? I know what my answer is.


I think the notion of “better” is in the eye of the beholder. What do you mean by better”? For example, you could say “better” means improvements in total harmonic distortion or linearity or ability to decode more codecs. If that’s your definition of “better”, then the answer is obvious. There are of course better DACs than Dave. Look at Stereophile measurements of the Dave and compare them with other state of the art DACs like Mola Mola Tambaqui or MSB Select II etc. Even very cheap DACs like the Topping D90 will decode DSD 512, which the Dave will not do. If by “better”, you mean subjectively, then again the answer is clear. A lot of folks on this forum have invested in pricey aftermarket linear power supplies that can cost more than the Dave itself. I assume they are doing this “upgrade” because they are not pleased with the Dave’s sound in its original form. My view of all hifi components, whether it be DACs or amplifiers or speakers, is that there is no “best” component nor will there ever be such a thing. It’s good to get that idea out of one’s head if you want to enjoy high end audio. There’s only a certain gestalt sound signature one gets with a component. The Dave has a certain sonic signature that is a deliberate design choice, just as a Klipschorn has a sound signature or a Quad electrostatic. Is the Quad better than the Klipschorn. Yes and no. The KHorns will play far louder with much less power and blend into a room as they are corner loaded than a Quad will ever do. On the other hand, Quads are less colored than any horn speaker ever designed. It’s a trade off. I have a Lampizator Pacific DAC in addition to the Dave. The Lampi has a certain sound signature that the Dave can never match precisely because the Lampi uses direct heated triodes. No op amp based DAC will ever sound like a DHT DAC just like no solid state amplifier will ever sound like a single ended triode amplifier. No one can decide for you what’s best. In fact there’s a whole forum for high end audio called What’s Best! It’s a joke because there’s no obvious “best” that anyone agrees with on that forum. It’s a great forum, but a silly title. There’s no “best” movie, no “best” composer, no “best” artist, no “best” poet, no “best” scientist! Was Picasso a better painter than Leonardo da Vinci? Was Mozart a greater composer than Beethoven? Were The Beatles the best rock group in history? Ask 10 people for their opinions and you’ll get 10 different answers.


----------



## Icenine2

Totally "blown away" by DAVE. Beyond happy I bought this


----------



## chesebert (Jun 27, 2022)

Icenine2 said:


> Totally "blown away" by DAVE. Beyond happy I bought this


That does not appear to be a musical combo, IMO. I am glad you are enjoying this. How did you come to this decision?


----------



## alxw0w

chesebert said:


> That does not appear to be a musical combo, IMO. I am glad you are enjoying this. How did you come to this decision?


What is musical?


----------



## 801evan

Icenine2 said:


> Totally "blown away" by DAVE. Beyond happy I bought this


Ooo another  happy Dave + Stealth user. 💪💪💪 Consider getting a src +dx + sorbothanes to hear it scale up even more for not a lot of $$$


----------



## SteveHulk

And my DAVE is back with Chord while they find out what's up with that capacitor.

I dropped it off today. My Cave system has had its heart torn out. 💔


----------



## 801evan

SteveHulk said:


> And my DAVE is back with Chord while they find out what's up with that capacitor.
> 
> I dropped it off today. My Cave system has had its heart torn out. 💔


The irony where to only find out about that cap is to do a move that would make one lose their warranty. Good thing nothing was damaged from that cap and that HQ will sort it out.


----------



## zen87192

🕑🕝 Timing of the Power Install may have saved the Day(ve) for you 🕝🕑😀


----------



## saudio7 (Jun 28, 2022)

sm60 said:


> Even very cheap DACs like the Topping D90 will decode DSD 512, which the Dave will not do.


Are you sure about that, if I remember correctly it can (in Chord page it is specified that it can), apart that there are almost no original DSD512 files. I don’t have this kind of files, so can’t check this.


----------



## alxw0w

Yes Dave plays dsd512. But who cares?


----------



## chesebert

SteveHulk said:


> And my DAVE is back with Chord while they find out what's up with that capacitor.
> 
> I dropped it off today. My Cave system has had its heart torn out. 💔


You are welcome. All the best to your repair.


----------



## SteveHulk

801evan said:


> The irony where to only find out about that cap is to do a move that would make one lose their warranty. Good thing nothing was damaged from that cap and that HQ will sort it out.


I was an early DAVE adopter so I think it is well out of warranty.

I don't expect Chord to do this repair for free.

It's just one of those things 🙂


----------



## Somatic

Ok so I ordered the Farad 3 with Furutech Inlets & SR Purple fuses upgrade. Also ordered Lavricables Grand silver cables to use with Solitaire P and LCD5 by using an adapter by AffinityAdapters for the LCD5.

I ordered 3 AC power cables from NRG Custom Cables ‘The .1’. 

It will be fun putting everything together.


----------



## zen87192 (Jun 28, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Ok so I ordered the Farad 3 with Furutech Inlets & SR Purple fuses upgrade. Also ordered Lavricables Grand silver cables to use with Solitaire P and LCD5 by using an adapter by AffinityAdapters for the LCD5.
> 
> I ordered 3 AC power cables from NRG Custom Cables ‘The .1’.
> 
> It will be fun putting everything together.


😱😱 Wow! You're gonna have a good time! Look forward to your thoughts on DAVE/Farad install. You'll probably get yours and install quicker than I'll receive mine... it seems my delivery is stuck in Stanstead Airport UPS/Customs somewhere. UPS have no idea what the hold up is or the whereabouts of the parcel currently. You may wish to decide on your preference of Courier if you can still do so. If I could have my 'order time' again, I'd travel over and collect it myself and also save a couple of hundred quid in the meantime.


----------



## Somatic

zen87192 said:


> 😱😱 Wow! You're gonna have a good time! Look forward to your thoughts on DAVE/Farad install. You'll probably get yours and install quicker than I'll receive mine... it seems my delivery is stuck in Stanstead Airport UPS/Customs somewhere. UPS have no idea what the hold up is or the whereabouts of the parcel currently. You may wish to decide on your preference of Courier if you can still do so. If I could have my 'order time' again, I'd travel over and collect it myself and also save a couple of hundred quid in the meantime.


I hope you get it soon. I was hoping for more thoughts from you and @SteveHulk but seems like both of you are going through some adversities. So I will join the fray and let everyone know my thoughts.


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> I hope you get it soon. I was hoping for more thoughts from you and @SteveHulk but seems like both of you are going through some adversities. So I will join the fray and let everyone know my thoughts.


When I get my system back together I will certainly update here.

Though before I dismantled it, it was sounding great. A wonderful natural sound.


----------



## 801evan (Jun 29, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> I was an early DAVE adopter so I think it is well out of warranty.
> 
> I don't expect Chord to do this repair for free.
> 
> It's just one of those things 🙂


Glad it went well. My when my Hugo 1 failed, which i bought 2nd hand in Japan, the local distro at the time insisted I need a new $$$ board. But Chord HQ got back to me and said it's still within warranty so I got a free replacement. ❤️❤️ I had no idea of the length of warranty and how old the unit was so it was 👌👌👌


----------



## muski

801evan said:


> Ooo another  happy Dave + Stealth user. 💪💪💪 Consider getting a src +dx + sorbothanes to hear it scale up even more for not a lot of $$$


Interesting that you mention sorbothanes. I recently stuck Vibrapods under my DAVE, M Scaler and SonicTransporter and liked the result.


----------



## 801evan

muski said:


> Interesting that you mention sorbothanes. I recently stuck Vibrapods under my DAVE, M Scaler and SonicTransporter and liked the result.


I have it on everything. Now I'm wrapping devices in EMI blankets and love the sonic gains. Only way to get good blacks. No need for external amp, tube amp or speaker amp for HP.


----------



## Reactcore

SteveHulk said:


> When I get my system back together I will certainly update here.


Pls ask Chord to tell what caused the cap to get in that state..if they can.


----------



## shaylin3

muski said:


> Interesting that you mention sorbothanes. I recently stuck Vibrapods under my DAVE, M Scaler and SonicTransporter and liked the result.


Would like to ask about the size of Vibrapods you are using,*Model 3?*


----------



## MvRBE10

Anyone use them underneath the choral stand? Got 4 isoacoustic pucks left over. The dave sits hard in the stand and the stand has three little rubbers on each feet. Did think about it but never came to it. Got the streamer on it when harddrives rotate these pucks take away that vibration.


----------



## Rob Watts

Reactcore said:


> Pls ask Chord to tell what caused the cap to get in that state..if they can.


The cap is part of an LC passive filter to feed the regulator that is the voltage source for the master clock. The LC filter is fed from the +5v. Oddly the cap is a 16v 1000uF electrolytic, with normally only 5v across it, so it will never get over voltage stress; moreover it can't get temperature stressed either, as we use 85 deg C parts, and it will be running at no more than 40 deg C. For a 7 year old cap under these circumstances I would not expect it to fail at all - the number of failures of electrolytic caps long term is vanishingly small when you overate voltage and temperature.

The only time I have ever seen this kind of thing happen is if you put too much voltage onto the cap, or have the wrong polarity of voltage. Since this Dave has had it's PSU changed (something I do not recommend) it's possible that the wiring was initially wrong so that -15v went onto the +5v line. What would happen then is that body diode conduction would limit the -15v to -0.6v. The regulators connected to +5v would all survive this; but the electrolytic caps would be reverse biased, and this would create a lot of heat inside the cap. Fortunately, body diode conduction limiting the reverse voltage to -0.6v would ensure that you wouldn't get an immediate explosion, just nasty swelling.

But of course replacing the PSU could be just a coincidence, and that's it's just an unreliable cap - even if these are extremely rare events.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jun 29, 2022)

The monitor pcb will not lett through a wrong voltage so that impossible. Just won’t let all three through if any is wrong. I think the photo is made while installing so not put ‘on’ this also rules it out. My bet just a faulty cap.

One thing i still dont understand if near to everybody percieves lps upgrade to be major improvement not a little but realy big on the dave i think in the 100th now and almost all audio engineers improve there power supply. Why does the designers sticks to his ears?


----------



## alxw0w

But it's possible to reverse molex connector that connects with Daves PCB 
But I doubt that actually happened.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jun 29, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> But it's possible to reverse molex connector that connects with Daves PCB
> But I doubt that actually happened.


There is a hook below the connector you would be really mentally challenged when that happens and the ground will be swapped also that one is offset on the pins😜


----------



## alxw0w

MvRBE10 said:


> There is a hook below the connector you would be really mentally challenged when that happens and the ground will be swapped also that one is offset on the pins😜


Never underestimate power of people


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 29, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> The cap is part of an LC passive filter to feed the regulator that is the voltage source for the master clock. The LC filter is fed from the +5v. Oddly the cap is a 16v 1000uF electrolytic, with normally only 5v across it, so it will never get over voltage stress; moreover it can't get temperature stressed either, as we use 85 deg C parts, and it will be running at no more than 40 deg C. For a 7 year old cap under these circumstances I would not expect it to fail at all - the number of failures of electrolytic caps long term is vanishingly small when you overate voltage and temperature.
> 
> The only time I have ever seen this kind of thing happen is if you put too much voltage onto the cap, or have the wrong polarity of voltage. Since this Dave has had it's PSU changed (something I do not recommend) it's possible that the wiring was initially wrong so that -15v went onto the +5v line. What would happen then is that body diode conduction would limit the -15v to -0.6v. The regulators connected to +5v would all survive this; but the electrolytic caps would be reverse biased, and this would create a lot of heat inside the cap. Fortunately, body diode conduction limiting the reverse voltage to -0.6v would ensure that you wouldn't get an immediate explosion, just nasty swelling.
> 
> But of course replacing the PSU could be just a coincidence, and that's it's just an unreliable cap - even if these are extremely rare events.


Dear Rob,

The first time I took the lid off, before doing anything at all to the power supply, this cap was already in this condition.

The sequence of photos I posted shows the cap in a bulging state with the Chord SMPS still in situ.






Therefore the demise of this cap cannot be attributed to any error in altering the power supply.

Indeed, it was only the contributors here that attracted my attention to it when they eventually saw the sequence I posted here. I myself had not noticed the bulging top.

By the time their warnings were posted and I had read them the DAVE was already back in my system and playing music with no apparent problems.

As I remarked in an earlier post, the DAVE is, as far as I know, out of warranty by now and I do not expect this repair to be free of charge.

However, I would be very upset if anybody there at Chord might think that I have misrepresented this situation in any way or that I am attempting any kind of fraud.


----------



## Rob Watts

MvRBE10 said:


> There is a hook below the connector you would be really mentally challenged when that happens and the ground will be swapped also that one is offset on the pins😜


That makes me mentally challenged as I have done it myself before - it's easily done if you are in a hurry - I found out my mistake before powering up though. And doing this would put +20v on the +5v rail which would also cause the cap to swell.


----------



## MvRBE10

Rob Watts said:


> That makes me mentally challenged as I have done it myself before - it's easily done if you are in a hurry - I found out my mistake before powering up though. And doing this would put +20v on the +5v rail which would also cause the cap to swell.


Indeed most mistakes are made in a hurry i started my self complete revised race engine one time back in the 90th without oil, race, fast changing… when your mind is occupied with other priorities its when things are starting to cost money😂 everybodies been there in engineering. But we learn of it, sometimes


----------



## Somatic

Rob Watts said:


> The cap is part of an LC passive filter to feed the regulator that is the voltage source for the master clock. The LC filter is fed from the +5v. Oddly the cap is a 16v 1000uF electrolytic, with normally only 5v across it, so it will never get over voltage stress; moreover it can't get temperature stressed either, as we use 85 deg C parts, and it will be running at no more than 40 deg C. For a 7 year old cap under these circumstances I would not expect it to fail at all - the number of failures of electrolytic caps long term is vanishingly small when you overate voltage and temperature.
> 
> The only time I have ever seen this kind of thing happen is if you put too much voltage onto the cap, or have the wrong polarity of voltage. Since this Dave has had it's PSU changed (something I do not recommend) it's possible that the wiring was initially wrong so that -15v went onto the +5v line. What would happen then is that body diode conduction would limit the -15v to -0.6v. The regulators connected to +5v would all survive this; but the electrolytic caps would be reverse biased, and this would create a lot of heat inside the cap. Fortunately, body diode conduction limiting the reverse voltage to -0.6v would ensure that you wouldn't get an immediate explosion, just nasty swelling.
> 
> But of course replacing the PSU could be just a coincidence, and that's it's just an unreliable cap - even if these are extremely rare events.


Hi Rob,

Just curious what an average expectation for shelf life is for the Dave? I know it’s variable due to usage etc but are these units made to last 10, 20, 30 years or less? Thanks for any insights.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jun 29, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Hi Rob,
> 
> Just curious what an average expectation for shelf life is for the Dave? I know it’s variable due to usage etc but are these units made to last 10, 20, 30 years or less? Thanks for any insights.


I think you have to take a different approach on this take a look at well designed stuff from the 70’ 80’ and on. It will last forever when most is over-engineered in a way parts don’t suffer of heat etc… there is always the exeption but this i think is like a tank… take in consideration what the community is tweaking on robs stuff and still is rock solid 👍🏻


----------



## Triode User

Somatic said:


> Hi Rob,
> 
> Just curious what an average expectation for shelf life is for the Dave? I know it’s variable due to usage etc but are these units made to last 10, 20, 30 years or less? Thanks for any insights.


I have a solid state amplifier that I use every day and has been fully powered up for 25 yrs. It had some smoothing caps replaced 5yrs ago but that is all. I fully expect my Dave to last decades with the same treatment (ie powered up 24/7).


----------



## SteveHulk

alxw0w said:


> But it's possible to reverse molex connector that connects with Daves PCB
> But I doubt that actually happened.


I have built many desktop computers and I am very familiar with the way molex connectors link together. The hooks and snaps that lock the connectors together when they are correctly aligned are very obvious to my eye. I cannot imagine even attempting to connect a molex in reverse.


----------



## Kentajalli

SteveHulk said:


> I have built many desktop ....... I cannot imagine even attempting to connect a molex in reverse.


Of course you being a Hulk, you probably could!
But the rest of us couldn't , even if we wanted to.
😊


----------



## alxw0w (Jun 29, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> I have built many desktop computers and I am very familiar with the way molex connectors link together. The hooks and snaps that lock the connectors together when they are correctly aligned are very obvious to my eye. I cannot imagine even attempting to connect a molex in reverse.


Still how you can be sure if connector and socket doesn't have alignment pins?
And it seems like socket on the Dave doesn't have any and one from farad is also empty. Maybe there is something I don't see on the pictures which somehow helps with connection, I don't know I've never disassembled Dave.

Ps. As for computers I was taking care of my stuff since I was like 10

PS2. I remember once fuse blew on the PSU, I didn't have any spare at that time but I badly wanted to play games.
So I soldered some thin wire instead...
I don't have to tell you what happened next 😆 (it worked.... For some time, then it turned out that the wire was too thick)


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 29, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> Still how you can be sure if connector and socket doesn't have alignment pins?
> And it seems like socket on the Dave doesn't have any and one from farad is also empty. Maybe there is something I don't see on the pictures which somehow helps with connection, I don't know I've never disassembled Dave.
> 
> Ps. As for computers I was taking care of my stuff since I was like 10


If you are able to look at the molex plug and socket in the DAVE you will see that on one face of each there are the hooks and snaps that will lock the two together when correctly aligned, and on the other face of each there is nothing.

Given, as you say, that the pins themselves have no differences between them then you will be alerted to the fact that there must be some other way of determining which way round the plug must be inserted.

It is at this point that your attention will have to switch to the molex casings rather than the pins and you will then observe the hooks and snaps on each casing that must be aligned.

This will unambiguously indicate the correct alignment and you will be able to complete the connection with confidence.


----------



## MvRBE10

SteveHulk said:


> If you are able to look at the molex plug and socket in the DAVE you will see that on one face of each there are the hooks and snaps that will lock the two together when correctly aligned, and on the other face of each there is nothing.
> 
> Given, as you say, that the pins themselves have no differences between them then you will be alerted to the fact that there must be some other way of determining which way round the plug must be inserted.
> 
> ...


You must be a teacher…


----------



## SteveHulk

MvRBE10 said:


> You must be a teacher…


My hands are up - you nailed it! 😀

Although I am retired, I still teach Maths and Physics as a volunteer tutor. The charity for whom I teach was established to assist students from deprived backgrounds to enter top universities.

I try to be very precise when tutoring so that my students can gain a deep and clear understanding of the topics we cover.

Those moments when a student says "oh, I see!" are extremely rewarding for me.

I also try to make my postings here and elsewhere precise and informative.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jun 29, 2022)

Damn…. I new it its in the tone of words… something i always do wrong… teached some math in uni for extra points (way way back in the days) but did not work out well 😂


----------



## alxw0w (Jun 29, 2022)

801evan said:


> Ooo another  happy Dave + Stealth user. 💪💪💪 Consider getting a src +dx + sorbothanes to hear it scale up even more for not a lot of $$$


Have you compared sorbothanes with something like IsoAcoustics Iso-Pucs? (or similar) Any thoughts?

Currently I'm using thick heavy granite blocks under my Dave and MScaler and I think that yes it helped a bit, sound became calmer (?).
I have been thinking for some time about adding something from isoacoustics in addition to my granite "stands".


----------



## 801evan (Jun 29, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> Have you compared sorbothanes with something like IsoAcoustics Iso-Pucs? (or similar) Any thoughts?
> 
> Currently I'm using thick heavy granite blocks under my Dave and MScaler and I think that yes it helped a bit, sound became calmer (?).
> I have been thinking for some time about adding something from isoacoustics in addition to my granite "stands".


Tried Orea and stuff from Herbie's audio lab and other stuff. Sorbothanes still win by a lot. Some ppl don't like it coz they claim it dampens too much. I don't think so at all. It's coz their stuff is too noisy that sorbothanes can accentuate those issues. I'm now using EMI blankets and its like the missing piece to the puzzle.


----------



## Reactcore

Rob Watts said:


> That makes me mentally challenged as I have done it myself before - it's easily done if you are in a hurry - I found out my mistake before powering up though. And doing this would put +20v on the +5v rail which would also cause the cap to swell.


Well in my career as CCTV technician i had it once with a professional network switch.. only weeks old behaving unstable.. i spent nights getting things work for the customer being the dutch govern and a water lock project.. ships were waiting in line to go through.. until i opened a switch to find a bubled cap. They had 15 units in operation.

Later the switch fabric confirmed there was a batch of bad taiwanese caps in a production line. And they did a return call in the market.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 29, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> Have you compared sorbothanes with something like IsoAcoustics Iso-Pucs? (or similar) Any thoughts?
> 
> Currently I'm using thick heavy granite blocks under my Dave and MScaler and I think that yes it helped a bit, sound became calmer (?).
> I have been thinking for some time about adding something from isoacoustics in addition to my granite "stands".


I am very much a fan of thick granite.

Not only does it look very smart, but the sonic benefits can be startlingly good.

I first got into the idea when I bought the dCS Elgar. The casework was a truncated pyramid shape with a slab of beautiful marble mounted in the top surface. The idea, as I recall, was that the pyramidal shape was more rigid because of its geometry than the standard cuboidal shapes in other devices and that this, combined with the inert mass of the marble, would reduce vibration in the case.

In the early days of the digital era ie cd players it was thought that digital systems were immune from such vibrations. Early cd players had essentially no vibration isolation and were very often cheaply constructed from plastics and low-grade metal alloys. 

On shows such as "Tomorrow's World" on British TV, cds were smeared with jam before being loaded into innocent and helpless players. The players proceeded to play the cds, and were presumably discarded after the show. Thus the myth of digital incorruptibility was born and promulgated. 

It was not long before Sony came up with its "ES" series of players. I came to own the CDP555ES, and very pleased with it I was too. 

This player featured a fully suspended all-metal disc drive with a magnetic guide rail for the laser pickup. The suspension was similar to good turntables. This design measure was previously thought unnecessary.

Furthermore, the power supply transformers were mounted externally to the case and well away from the DAC section.

The transport mechanism with its associated electronics had a separate power supply and did not share power rails with the DAC section which had its own supply and rails.

Sony had realised that electrical noise in the transport would be transmitted by shared power rails into the DAC and degrade its performance.

They also realised that vibrations in the transport would induce read errors as the disc vibrated relative to the rest of the transport.

The fact seemed to be that these read errors would activate the error-correcting electronics and cause more noise in the transport and therefore on its power rails.

Years later I used the CDP555ES as a transport for the Purcell and Elgar, bypassing the Sony DAC.

One day it came to me that placing a granite slab on top of the player might be an interesting experiment - after all, if it works for the Elgar might it not work for the Sony? The top plate of the Sony case was a fairly thin and resonant piece of metal.

I went to a monumental mason (yes, they normally make gravestones) and had a granite slab cut and polished to the right size. I fixed it to the top of the Sony with many small blobs of Blu-Tac.

When I started listening I was quite surprised by the increased quality of the bass. 

Before, it had a somewhat undefined "wandering" quality noticeable on organ music. Now it was much more stable, the notes sounded firmer.

Anybody who thinks they might like to try "slabbing" components in their own system, I can recommend that you try.

For my part, designs for a new and complete stand for my own Cave system based on a thick rigid glass framework and thick marble shelving are now gestating.


----------



## Kentajalli

SteveHulk said:


> I am very much a fan of thick granite.
> 
> Not only does it look very smart, but the sonic benefits can be startlingly good.
> 
> ...


God almighty!
I do understand the need to use a heavy stone blocks as vibration sinks and the use of suspension to isolate and decouple something acoustically, BUT not in a benign DAC or a solid state device, They are not microphonic!
Yes by all means decouple, isolate and dampen any mechanical Hifi gear, such as turntables, CD players and speakers! even Tube amplifiers - but a DAC??
For the record, my choice of speaker platform/stand has been the following, with success:
- I have floor boards!
So four flat head bolts screwed into the main floor beams, but not fully! Protruding about 15mm off the floor. On top of which I soldered a 2 pence coin each! (about 25mm diameter) on the coins goes four chunky 1.5 cm thick pads of Sorbothane, on top of which goes a chunky slab of Granite. the Granite slab sort of floats on the Sorbothane pads. This decouples the slabs from the building/floor.
Underneath my Sonus Faber floor standers, I have three round head bolts screwed in a largest triangle I could fit. One at front and two at back, each bolt sticking out just about 5mm. The speakers sit on the slabs on these three bolts - so the speaker cabinets are Coupled Acoustically to the slabs.
The sheer mass/inertia of the slabs keep the speaker cabinets from vibrating, acting as a vibration sink! but the whole assembly is decoupled from floor timbers, thanx to Sorbothane pads. I use a similar method in a smaller scale for my bookshelf speakers, on very steady wall brackets.
I would use the same for a turntable or a CD drive, if I was using one.
My DACs just sit on the same unit as my PC with all its fans spinning! I doubt it needs anything.


----------



## paulrbarnard

Kentajalli said:


> God almighty!
> I do understand the need to use a heavy stone blocks as vibration sinks and the use of suspension to isolate and decouple something acoustically, BUT not in a benign DAC or a solid state device, They are not microphonic!


I believe that @Rob Watts at one point said the crystals used in the DAVE might benefit from vibration treatment.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 29, 2022)

Kentajalli said:


> God almighty!
> I do understand the need to use a heavy stone blocks as vibration sinks and the use of suspension to isolate and decouple something acoustically, BUT not in a benign DAC or a solid state device, They are not microphonic!
> Yes by all means decouple, isolate and dampen any mechanical Hifi gear, such as turntables, CD players and speakers! even Tube amplifiers - but a DAC??
> For the record, my choice of speaker platform/stand has been the following, with success:
> ...


Purely solid state components are in fact microphonic.

People have been putting amps and DACs on spikes since forever, and with good reason - vibration isolation. 

Manufacturers of high quality solid state devices always pay serious attention to the feet and casework of their products. 

For example, the DAVE circuit board is mounted in that extremely weighty case machined from a solid aluminum block for good reason - suppression of vibrations in the electronics. The DAVE stands on eight Sorbothane hemispheres for feet for the same reason.

This goes for other Chord devices, and devices from dCS among others.

If these measures have audible sonic benefits then you can anticipate that taking similar steps in your own system will have similar benefits.

I have experienced this for myself using home-grown methods.

I can only urge you to try.


----------



## Kentajalli

SteveHulk said:


> Purely solid state components are in fact microphonic.
> 
> People have been putting amps and DACs on spikes since forever, and with good reason - vibration isolation.
> 
> ...


I do understand the fun side of this hobby and there is nothing wrong with that.
But scientifically speaking, Chord circuit boards being tightly bolted to a heavy duty block of Alu. serves to couple the outside world and all the vibrations to the circuit board and not away from it.
Spikes are also coupling devices, meaning the PASS vibration through and not isolate.
The whole point of Spikes, when they were introduced to speakers, was to bypass the elastic carpet! which was a wobbly platform for speakers, that was detrimental.
The spikes pierced through the flexible floor coverings to couple the speakers to steady floor timber work, to dampen cabinet vibrations.
And then some clever dude, discovered the magical powers of spikes, and they appeared on everything hifi! I have seen them on hose-pipe size speaker cables, to kill off vibrations in those cables!
Madness!


----------



## alxw0w

Clocks are sensitive for vibration. So any dumping have positive effect on their work.

Of course it's another case whatever you are going to hear any effect especially with headphone system, where there is very little vibration going on.
I still believe that indeed it had a positive impact in my case.


----------



## Kentajalli (Jun 29, 2022)

paulrbarnard said:


> I believe that @Rob Watts at one point said the crystals used in the DAVE might benefit from vibration treatment.


OK, I give that a guarded maybe, that is a possibility! Chord should have isolated them on suspended daughter boards then.
Though a piece of crystal oscillating at 100 MHz, being affected by a few tens of Hertz, is a tough pill to swallow.
A million to one!


----------



## Rob Watts

Somatic said:


> Hi Rob,
> 
> Just curious what an average expectation for shelf life is for the Dave? I know it’s variable due to usage etc but are these units made to last 10, 20, 30 years or less? Thanks for any insights.



That's a very difficult question to answer. Certainly, the target is a half life exceeding 25 years, and I see no reason why the average Dave can't work for 25 years. I have an amp I built 30 years ago that is still working fine, and my 'scope is over 30 years old and works perfectly. I guess the likely failures would be connectors if you were to plug things in and out every day, and the display - but the display failure rate is extremely low. If you wanted 25 years operation from the display POV then either set the unit to standby when not in use, or use the message mode on the display (disp 4).


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 29, 2022)

Kentajalli said:


> I do understand the fun side of this hobby and there is nothing wrong with that.
> But scientifically speaking, Chord circuit boards being tightly bolted to a heavy duty block of Alu. serves to couple the outside world and all the vibrations to the circuit board and not away from it.
> Spikes are also coupling devices, meaning the PASS vibration through and not isolate.
> The whole point of Spikes, when they were introduced to speakers, was to bypass the elastic carpet! which was a wobbly platform for speakers, that was detrimental.
> ...


I have to remark that the purpose of spikes is to securely and tightly couple any device to a large mass. The large combined mass created is much harder for normal ambient vibrations to shake and so the spiked device benefits from the vibration resistance conferred by the greater mass without having to be so massive itself. 

It does not have to be a speaker spiked to a floor, it can be an amp spiked to a massive shelf in a heavily-built stand. Same effect.

The speakers in my main system are spiked directly to the floor. The floor is a solid reinforced concrete slab which weighs many tons. Each speaker is 125Kg. The combination is extremely massive providing an excellent platform for the production of superb bass. This arrangement is also very good for my neighbours below. Because the floor/speakers cannot vibrate because they are so massive no sound is transmitted through their ceiling.

The thick casework on the DAVE isn't just about mass. It is also about rigidity. The case being so rigid means that its natural resonant frequencies are pushed to ultrasonic values. These high-frequency modes are very high-energy which makes excitation by normal ambient vibrations very difficult.

Therefore the case of DAVE is very vibrationally quiet in its own right. 

All of this improves the sound quality of the DAVE.

This exploit of case rigidity features in the design of the highest-end speakers. Enclosures are not only massive but they are designed to be extremely rigid using various techniques. This pushes the natural resonant frequencies of the cabinets up to values where the corresponding resonant modes cannot be excited by the frequencies being produced by the drive units. In this way the cabinets become effectively inert and do not participate in the response of the speaker as a whole.


----------



## Kentajalli

SteveHulk said:


> I have to remark that the purpose of spikes is to securely and tightly couple any device to a large mass. The large combined mass created is much harder for normal ambient vibrations to shake and so the spiked device benefits from the vibration resistance conferred by the greater mass without having to be so massive itself.


That is true, but a standard table, would vibrate with bass notes and the spikes inject that to the device, a piece of soft rubber does a better job, unless you have a very sturdy table on a concrete floor.


SteveHulk said:


> It does not have to be a speaker spiked to a floor, it can be an amp spiked to a massive shelf in a heavily-built stand. Same effect.
> 
> The speakers in my main system are spiked directly to the floor. The floor is a solid reinforced concrete slab which weighs many tons. Each speaker is 125Kg. The combination is extremely massive providing an excellent platform for the production of superb bass. This arrangement is also very good for my neighbours below. Because the floor/speakers cannot vibrate because they are so massive no sound is transmitted through their ceiling.


You are lucky, here in UK, floor boards are everywhere. Concrete floors and spikes will work.


SteveHulk said:


> The thick casework on the DAVE isn't just about mass. It is also about rigidity. The case being so rigid means that its natural resonant frequencies are pushed to ultrasonic values. These high-frequency modes are very high-energy which makes excitation by normal ambient vibrations very difficult.
> 
> Therefore the case of DAVE is very vibrationally quiet in its own right.
> 
> All of this improves the sound quality of the DAVE.


We agree to disagree on this point, surely DAVE is well made, but acoustical isolation is neither required or important here, that's my opinion.
Ceratinly putting it on a ton of stone won't hurt the sound, so enjoy.


----------



## muski

shaylin3 said:


> Would like to ask about the size of Vibrapods you are using,*Model 3?*


I’m using three Model 2 under the DAVE and four Model 1 under the M Scaler.

Let us know what you think if you try them. 

Cheers
muski


----------



## shaylin3

muski said:


> I’m using three Model 2 under the DAVE and four Model 1 under the M Scaler.
> 
> Let us know what you think if you try them.
> 
> ...


Has it been used with VIBRAPOD CONE?


----------



## Ards

muski said:


> Interesting that you mention sorbothanes. I recently stuck Vibrapods under my DAVE, M Scaler and SonicTransporter and liked the result.


I did an experiment measuring the vibration attenuation of all the supports I had available using a high accuracy accelerometer and the vibrapods were the easy winner.  They were also, by far, the cheapest.  I use them every where I can now.


----------



## 801evan

Ards said:


> I did an experiment measuring the vibration attenuation of all the supports I had available using a high accuracy accelerometer and the vibrapods were the easy winner.  They were also, by far, the cheapest.  I use them every where I can now.


What's just as important for a headfi like me, the sticky of the original sorbothanes create a coupling where I need it more to dampen internal micro vibration more than outer.


----------



## 801evan

Ards said:


> I did an experiment measuring the vibration attenuation of all the supports I had available using a high accuracy accelerometer and the vibrapods were the easy winner.  They were also, by far, the cheapest.  I use them every where I can now.


Good to know. That validates my theory on the naysayers of the sorbothanes. The ones they preferred all lifted blacks and bumped the mids. The perfect recipe to go just above the noise floor and....distortion likes distortion.


----------



## Christer (Jun 30, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> Damn…. I new it its in the tone of words… something i always do wrong… teached some math in uni for extra points (way way back in the days) but did not work out well 😂


Teach -taught -taught?
 Correct me if I am wrong ?
And as far as Maths is concerned  I still firmly  agree with Rob that 2+2=4.
But another thing related to Maths I find VERY hard to accept is why Dave and the upcoming improved ? Mscaler x  have to be priced  way out of reach for many who would possibly enjoy the improvements in SQ I already know, Dave brings over the cheaper Chord dacs. And I  both hope and suspect the new Mscaler wil bring over the first one?
Well anyway at least I got my Mscaler before all the recent price hikes hit so hard.
Another ex - teacher, who never taught such abstract subjects as  Maths or Physics.
Cheers CC


----------



## SteveHulk (Jun 30, 2022)

Christer said:


> Teach -taught -taught?
> Correct me if I am wrong ?
> [ ... ]
> Cheers CC


Please don't make such postings.

@MvRBE10 is not a native speaker of English, the usual language of this forum. His efforts here should be encouraged, not denigrated.

If he wishes to, with practice and determination he will surely improve his presentations.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jun 30, 2022)

I can go dutch and see how others can hang along or deutsch das ist auch kein problem.😜

Whatever, its fun on this forum a bit of poking is no problem as long as we stay - (stayed - stayed) civil.


----------



## Christer (Jun 30, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> Please don't make such postings.
> 
> @MvRBE10 is not a native speaker of English, the usual language of this forum. His efforts here should be encouraged, not denigrated.
> 
> If he wishes to, with practice and determination he will surely improve his presentations.


Nor am I, but anyway,my sincere apologies, it was  definitely not my intention to denigrate anybody only my maybe a bit odd  way of admitting my own very limited Maths.
Ps  to get back on topic again ,have you been able to try some well recorded piano with your Dave power upgrade/change yet?
Piano is an acoustic instrument I basically  only need to stretch an arm out a bit from my recliner  to compare how my Qutest/ Mscaler/Electrostatic speakers  and my Musical Fidelity KW amp deliver Mine is  not a Steinway but still a decent enough  upright- piano to make comparisons  between live and recorded  quite interesting. One of the things I have noticed is that even with my relatively cheap Chinese battery psu compared to the even cheaper stock wallwart smps is that I can hear a slightly fuller bodied sound more realistic  sound with battery power.
Another thing that I would really like to know is  why you use dCs products in your main speaker based system and not DAVE? Once again absolutely no offence intended, just curios to know why?

 Cheers CC


----------



## Christer

MvRBE10 said:


> I can go dutch and see how others can hang along or deutsch das ist auch kein problem.😜
> 
> Whatever, its fun on this forum a bit of poking is no problem as long as we stay civil.


 Hello and good to hear that you took no offence. There was absolutely none intended. 
But depending on what you actually mean by "go dutch" I have admit that if you mean speak Dutch? My vocabulary is very limited. The only Dutch word that  instantly "leaps  to mind" is "Schlürf" which I think is the Dutch word for an Elephant´s trunk? But since I speak German I can at least read a Dutch Newspaper without too much difficulty. 
Cheers CC


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jun 30, 2022)

Schlurf is deutsch as in german in dutch it is slurf as in the end of an elephant.

I do listen einaudi and keith and with the farad lps the timbre is much more real and vibrant and what amazes me most without the scaler much more musical. Like real real. Got a tendand of mine that does academic and international piano playing and sometimes went to a concert of her and that same attack and harmonic feel is there now also try bert van den brink ‘ god only knows(live) that will give you shivvers and how the room acoustic plays with the wood of the piano wing…


----------



## SteveHulk

I received notification that my DAVE is fully repaired, tested, and awaiting collection.

There was no reason for the cap to blow other than it was just bad. The rest of the device was functioning perfectly.

Despite that I had opened the lid, thus voiding the warranty, Chord made no charge for this work instead completing it under warranty.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Chord is a company that stands by its products.

Anybody can buy with confidence.


----------



## SteveHulk

Christer said:


> Ps  to get back on topic again ,have you been able to try some well recorded piano with your Dave power upgrade/change yet?
> Cheers CC


I have only had the system for a rather limited time before this business with the swollen cap came up. I have only been able to dip a toe in my music library. 

I am a great fan of piano music and I have some excellent recordings on file.

I will definitely make specific comments about piano in the near future.

I will pick up the DAVE in person tomorrow so it'll be back in my system for the weekend!


----------



## shaylin3

SteveHulk said:


> I have only had the system for a rather limited time before this business with the swollen cap came up. I have only been able to dip a toe in my music library.
> 
> I am a great fan of piano music and I have some excellent recordings on file.
> 
> ...


Looking forward to further development


----------



## SteveHulk

Christer said:


> Another thing that I would really like to know is  why you use dCs products in your main speaker based system and not DAVE? Onceagain absolutely no offence intended, just curios to know why?
> Cheers CC


It is a matter of history.

The main system was my first love and at the time I was able to stretch to the dCS prices before they went all Russian oligarch.

The principal modifications since then were focused on modifying the speakers to install upgraded mid-range drivers, and having the amp power supplies massively upgraded and externalised to the amp casings.

I then discovered the Hugo 1 and proceeded on a series of upgrades to reach the m scaler and the DAVE and create a headphone system with a smaller footprint that is in my own room. The dCS kit would not fit there. That is why the kit is split in the way it is. The Cave system is now a testbed for new ideas relating to power supplies and vibration isolation.

I also went full retro and bought the Woo amp because I had never experienced tubes and wanted to see what that was all about.


----------



## alxw0w

SteveHulk said:


> dCS prices before they went all Russian oligarch.


That's a good one 😂


----------



## 801evan

SteveHulk said:


> I received notification that my DAVE is fully repaired, tested, and awaiting collection.
> 
> There was no reason for the cap to blow other than it was just bad. The rest of the device was functioning perfectly.
> 
> ...


It's good that you found this out at this stage...lest it'll  make you conclude it was the farad that did it.


----------



## MvRBE10

Good to hear thats just a nasty cap that can happen. Good service also from chord.


----------



## SteveHulk

Christer said:


> [ ... ] and my Musical Fidelity KW amp deliver [ ... ] Cheers CC


Have you ever considered upgrading the KW amp?

https://jsaudiorepairs.co.uk is an outfit run by one of the engineers that worked at Musical Fidelity. He upgraded my twin A370 mk II amps. 

The result was truly awesome. Those amps were already quite powerful but the sheer dynamics after he worked on them were incredible. The 801Ds are a tough drive but those amps can now just totally bodyslam them.

He not only works on creating new power supplies, but he'll rework the amp boards to install components which are superior versions of the standard MF issue. 

You'll be amazed what your KW can actually do when the cage door is opened. I assure you that at the moment, just like me before John did his magic, you have no idea what you actually have there.

As with pretty much all products the original concept gets a severe haircut to bring it in at a price point. Power supplies, which are expensive, generally are cut hardest. However, by downgrading components all through the device savings are made. All these cuts can be reversed by an expert. John is an expert. 

I obviously totally recommend this.


----------



## Somatic

Wow. Good to know. Happy to have a Dave.


----------



## Somatic

@SteveHulk 

I will also be waiting with bated breath for your thoughts on the Farad3. I like to modify and tinker so it’s a fun project. Im excited to hear the difference. I agree with the clean power ideology. So interested to hear the differences.


----------



## Somatic

Any decent streamer that uses an internal LPS and has toslink? I don't want summitfi streamer. Just something significantly better than my $30 dollar audio card on my PC. Being able to EQ would be nice as well as I use slight EQ with the LCD5. Thank you.


----------



## kenray536 (Jun 30, 2022)

Has anyone tested the new Farad upgrade on the 115 voltage?
Anyone in the US with this upgrade yet?

Does anyone know if the PCB that comes with this kit will protect against plugging the incorrect power supply voltage to each lead?
(Reason that I ask is I move my Dave between upstairs and downstairs often.)


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jun 30, 2022)

I think this week there is one going to usa…

And yes if the wrong voltage is applied it will not start. But there are very good labels attached to the leads. Apart from polarity he has also build in a window (voltage) in which it must operate.

CFADMB (Cannot F@ckup A Dave Monitor Board)


----------



## MvRBE10

Somatic said:


> Any decent streamer that uses an internal LPS and has toslink? I don't want summitfi streamer. Just something significantly better than my $30 dollar audio card on my PC. Being able to EQ would be nice as well as I use slight EQ with the LCD5. Thank you.


You can buy a bluesound node 2i and build in a polish dc board and add external lps. I know its tinkering but you cant beat that sound fo the money.


----------



## Somatic

MvRBE10 said:


> I think this week there is one going to usa…
> 
> And yes if the wrong voltage is applied it will not start. But there are very good labels attached to the leads. Apart from polarity he has also build in a window (voltage) in which it must operate.
> 
> CFADMB (Cannot F@ckup A Dave Monitor Board)


I am the USA order.


----------



## Somatic

MvRBE10 said:


> You can buy a bluesound node 2i and build in a polish dc board and add external lps. I know its tinkering but you cant beat that sound fo the money


Nice. I will check out. I think Triode User mentioned this as well. Do you know if it has EQ?

My other idea was getting a Late 2014 mac mini i7 ssd 16gb with Mac mini DC-Conversion / Linear Fan Controller Kit from UpTone Audio and running it off LPS.

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/mac-mini-dc-conversion-linear-fan-controller-kit-mmk


----------



## alxw0w

Somatic said:


> Any decent streamer that uses an internal LPS and has toslink? I don't want summitfi streamer. Just something significantly better than my $30 dollar audio card on my PC. Being able to EQ would be nice as well as I use slight EQ with the LCD5. Thank you.


You can also think about lumin u1 mini.
It has BNC toslink and USB out as i remember.
And internal SMPS can be upgraded with farad3 or sbooster LPS.
Downside is that lumin is more expensive than node 2i


----------



## SteveHulk

kenray536 said:


> Has anyone tested the new Farad upgrade on the 115 voltage?
> Anyone in the US with this upgrade yet?
> 
> Does anyone know if the PCB that comes with this kit will protect against plugging the incorrect power supply voltage to each lead?
> (Reason that I ask is I move my Dave between upstairs and downstairs often.)


Apart from the clear labels on the individual supplies and the leads, I stack my 3 Farad supplies vertically in the same order as the corresponding leads enter the back of the DAVE. Bottom lead to bottom supply, middle lead to middle supply, and top lead to top supply.

Just another level of insurance against mixing the leads up.


----------



## MvRBE10

Somatic said:


> Nice. I will check out. I think Triode User mentioned this as well. Do you know if it has EQ?
> 
> My other idea was getting a Late 2014 mac mini i7 ssd 16gb with Mac mini DC-Conversion / Linear Fan Controller Kit from UpTone Audio and running it off LPS.
> 
> https://uptoneaudio.com/products/mac-mini-dc-conversion-linear-fan-controller-kit-mmk


It has some eq but when i used that it lost alot of stage and depth so instayed away from any form of eq had everything off.


----------



## Christer (Jun 30, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> Have you ever considered upgrading the KW amp?
> 
> https://jsaudiorepairs.co.uk is an outfit run by one of the engineers that worked at Musical Fidelity. He upgraded my twin A370 mk II amps.
> 
> ...


Thanks,
but I live in Sweden so that´d be a bit tricky to do in my case.  But yes  I am aware that my MF/ KW is not THE best amp money can buy, Nor is Qutest the best dac money can buy. Dave is audibly better in stock form.
 And  I have other things to spend my limited resources on now.  Covid forced me into retirement. Not from teaching, that was long ago, already in 2004.

 But from Tour-guiding in SE-Asia and Central America. And it has also basically killed my Travel Photography business.

Back on MF amps ,if not pressed too hard the KW is a good enough amp for me most of the time.
 Or is it really my Electrostatic speakers that can not quite keep up with some powerful  Mahler climaxes?
 Both my MF -XCanV3 combo with its separate psu and Benchmark amp hold up well via headphones. Rarely any congestion unless it is there in the recording.

The  KW amp can deliver 910 watts per channel into 4Ohm  so I doubt it is the Achilles Heel?

 Nor am I sure the MF/KW  hefty  power supply is where it had its "severe haircut"

It is indeed a very heavy beast weighing in at 70lbs and the amp  50lbs.

Not exactly portable toys I would ever bring on a trip to London.
 Last time I was there for the BBC Proms I only brought my HUGO 1 and a mbp laptop  and  my HD800 headphones.  I mainly enjoyed live unamplified Symphonic Music at the Royal Albert Hall anyway.

More than  30 BBC Proms Seasons  LIVE  ,so far for me.
I was seriously thinking of coming this summer .But it seems  although the Proms are back again
"Proper Promming"
IS NO MORE? Book online?
Chord again,  to  me it seems quite  likely that not only my little" micro usb" Qutest,but also Dave  also has  been through some kind of  " severe haircut".
I have reasons to suspect that Chord "stock  power" can be a bit of  an "Achilles Heel".  Why else would so many choose at high cost, to remove their stock ones?
And also rave so much about how much better it sounds once exchanged?
But why does Rob  advice so strongly against it?



If your 801D is the older model I am thinking of, you  do indeed, have a very good "old speaker" there, but personally I prefer the, effortlessly  liberated ,taller soundstage of electrostatic speakers even over the more recent B&Ws I have heard. Mine also  allow me to stand at the other end of my room still with good balance and soundstage. But  all B&Ws I know forced me to sit down.

Cheers CC


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## MvRBE10 (Jun 30, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> Apart from the clear labels on the individual supplies and the leads, I stack my 3 Farad supplies vertically in the same order as the corresponding leads enter the back of the DAVE. Bottom lead to bottom supply, middle lead to middle supply, and top lead to top supply.
> 
> Just another level of insurance against mixing the leads up.


One step further is add some color dots on the cable label and on the lps back and front. All disabilities are covered now😂 … sorry steve.

@Christer why Rob keeps that opnion is a riddle to me when the whole community listen to the lps upgrade’s and finds it in all kind of setup’s better, Headphones, really high end two way systems etc… but he keeps his mind set about this 25$ Switched power supply and some rf treatment in the dave as sufficient. I really really dont get it. But all of our ears are probably different than robs. Everything he designed i fully respect its a life achievement but the Lps part i just dont get. But everybody can have his opinion on whatever so we do not have to convince each other just ventilating the things i observe in here 😁 its a hobby all for good fun.


----------



## Somatic

MvRBE10 said:


> One step further is add some color dots on the cable label and on the lps back and front. All disabilities are covered now😂 … sorry steve.
> 
> @Christer why Rob keeps that opnion is a riddle to me when the whole community listen to the lps upgrade’s and finds it in all kind of setup’s better, Headphones, really high end two way systems etc… but he keeps his mind set about this 25$ Switched power supply and some rf treatment in the dave as sufficient. I really really dont get it. But all of our ears are probably different than robs. Everything he designed i fully respect its a life achievement but the Lps part i just dont get. But everybody can have his opinion on whatever so we do not have to convince each other just ventilating the things i observe in here 😁 its a hobby all for good fun.


Curious why you got rid of the M-Scaler after adding the Farad3 to your Dave? Was the benefits of the M-Scaler a lot less after the LPS upgrade? Curious on your thoughts.


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## MvRBE10 (Jun 30, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Curious why you got rid of the M-Scaler after adding the Farad3 to your Dave? Was the benefits of the M-Scaler a lot less after the LPS upgrade? Curious on your thoughts.


Yes i also tried a few new amps and the dave just really opened up after the upgrade and got much more musical. No fatique what so ever.. every time in what combination i tried with the scaler it became clothed (hope thats the correct word) i had the storm cables, farad lps even tried org smtp but it never became better… only when i changed back to org power supply and my old usher amp than the combo with the scaler was an upgrade on that setup.

But once you hear a non feedback musical system (little bit like good horn speakers sound) you will never go back again. Piano is piano, live music is pure fun, old school music rocks again. And voices in modern high end music just make your hairs stand up.

When adding the scaler in my last setup with lps upgrade indeed the detail was upped but all the attentions than goes to that details and musical listening was gone it becomes exhausting to listen to. Can’t explain otherwise you have to hear it. There is also an utter kind of ease now in the room and clarity. Its not in the tonality of things but in the blacks and attacks of the music. The dynamics are now just mental.

Mattijs explained it to me when you try to remove as much feedback in your analogue system in the music chain as possible everything will open up and become musical. As every form of feedback will kind of clogh the signal and degrade it but make it measure better. Its the ultimate fight designers of amps and all that stuff have. You can make it measure like killer but all that compensating and feedback in systems kills the music.

I now started to upgrade my passive speaker filters for paper oil versions, duelund etc and bypass caps to improve the musicality of the systems. Most stock high end speakers and there filters are really crap component wise. A good filter a caps really cost money but makes your system swing and rock… gonna put my money and attention first in that stuff.


----------



## audio_1

MvRBE10 said:


> When adding the scaler in my last setup with lps upgrade indeed the detail was upped but all the attentions than goes to that details and musical listening was gone it becomes exhausting to listen to. Can’t explain otherwise you have to hear it. There is also an utter kind of ease now in the room and clarity. Its not in the tonality of things but in the blacks and attacks of the music


I can't understand this, the Blu2 has the opposite effect in my system. I am getting an Mscaler, as I require additional inputs and rarely play CDs anymore. My Dave sounds brighter on its own, the sound closes in and texture in the bass is reduced. It's much more enjoyable and musical when mscaled.


----------



## MvRBE10

I know but its really system depended, it worked very well for me for a full year but i really think its depending on your synergy with the components in the system. And what you are seeking yourself also. It surely upped my system in my old setup. I know nick bacon has alot of research in his system and invested a serious amount of money in it and it works also for him but there are also a few with the same experience as me. So we are not all the same and seeking other things i guess in our guest for audio nirvana. A different path and aproach does not lead to the same components using. But it does not mean the old or the new is good or not good just different. And maybe a year from now i changed it all again…. Its fun


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## MvRBE10 (Jun 30, 2022)

audio_1 said:


> I can't understand this, the Blu2 has the opposite effect in my system. I am getting an Mscaler, as I require additional inputs and rarely play CDs anymore. My Dave sounds brighter on its own, the sound closes in and texture in the bass is reduced. It's much more enjoyable and musical when mscaled.


With the lps on the dave the opposite happend to me, became darker between the music but opener and better bass texture and more layered more stage and more musical. Read my findings in former posts of the farad lps upgrade. i did a full review on it. I can also mail or app it if you want to read it. The brighter it is or becomes is also a sign there could be alot of rf noise in a system. According to rob watts also 🤔😉.

Found the lps upgrade brings more musicality than the scaler. Did show all changes to my music loving: son, wife and audio pall i have for 35 years and they all had the same conclusions. I had to check that it is not me fooling myself. But the change is so immense and profound that it cannot be unheard or mistaken.

I am on holiday this week so cant listen but my son is 3 days non stop on my system. He is a Mettalica fan and going to concert of them tomorrow in belgium and never heard it sounding so cool and good as on our setup now.

Happy me i hate that music exept there nice ballad.


----------



## SteveHulk

Christer said:


> Thanks,
> but I live in Sweden so that´d be a bit tricky to do in my case.  But yes  I am aware that my MF/ KW is not THE best amp money can buy, Nor is Qutest the best dac money can buy. Dave is audibly better in stock form.


I hope you take some time to read the many many rave reviews on John Sampson's website.

They might give you some idea of what "not THE best amp" can actually do given the chance 🙂

You refer to the impressive power of your amp, what I will say is: power is nothing without control. 

John's upgrades would give your KW control such as you have never heard from it.


----------



## alxw0w

Making transients sharper also feels like music is "brighter".
Bass is no longer a blob without shape, same thing about higher frequencies, sound images are more defined.
Hence feeling of everything being "brighter"


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## MvRBE10

I have to add that i first changed to a spectral amp that i noticed a big shift in musicality than tried another newer spectral amp and started to experiment to take the scaler out of the chain. That put me in a rolecoaster to my last amp. I kept all amps and gear to go back to my first setup and worked my way up again to double check all my findings. 

This led in two weeks time to a complete new sounding setup that just make my feet tap every time including goosbumps and as i recently learned this is a thing called frission? And the lame thing is it sounded good to start with before it just sounds mental now. 👌


----------



## kenray536

SteveHulk said:


> Apart from the clear labels on the individual supplies and the leads, I stack my 3 Farad supplies vertically in the same order as the corresponding leads enter the back of the DAVE. Bottom lead to bottom supply, middle lead to middle supply, and top lead to top supply.
> 
> Just another level of insurance against mixing the leads up.


Thanks for the feedback Steve and your other posts on the Farad upgrade as well. 

Did you listen with the Mscaler? What were your impressions.

When I changed power supplies on my Auralic G1 in the past, it made it gave the music more energy, but I also found I was getting a little bit of listening fatigue and sharpness in the higher range. 

Have you experience any of this on the Dave Farad IPS upgrade? Is any harness or fatigue, or does it stay just as musical as before. (I've always thought thought that Dave + Mscaler had the perfect balance of being resolving but musical. Not sure if those are the right terms, but hopefully you understand what I mean.)


----------



## kenray536

MvRBE10 said:


> Yes i also tried a few new amps and the dave just really opened up after the upgrade and got much more musical. No fatique what so ever.. every time in what combination i tried with the scaler it became clothed (hope thats the correct word) i had the storm cables, farad lps even tried org smtp but it never became better… only when i changed back to org power supply and my old usher amp than the combo with the scaler was an upgrade on that setup.
> 
> But once you hear a non feedback musical system (little bit like good horn speakers sound) you will never go back again. Piano is piano, live music is pure fun, old school music rocks again. And voices in modern high end music just make your hairs stand up.
> 
> ...



Sounds like the Dave + Farad3 IPS upgrade became very musical for you.
So you don't experience any harshness or fatigue? Does it still keep the same 3 dimensional/holographic feel to the music?

When who tried you tried Dave + mScaler, did the mscaler have the farad3 upgrade?
Was that setup fatiguing and too harsh in the upper range?

I tried a power supply upgrade on my Auralic streamer and the past and it actually adding a little too much energy. The highs became a little fatiguing and difficult to listen too for long periods. If I get the Farad3 IPS Dave upgrade, I am planning to keep the Mscaler, so I am hoping this won't be an issue. 

My setup actually sounds wonderful to me at the moment, but I feel myself slipping right back down that rabbit hole! LOL


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## MvRBE10

kenray536 said:


> Sounds like the Dave + Farad3 IPS upgrade became very musical for you.
> So you don't experience any harshness or fatigue? Does it still keep the same 3 dimensional/holographic feel to the music?
> 
> When who tried you tried Dave + mScaler, did the mscaler have the farad3 upgrade?
> ...


Yes with lps no more fatigue at all, more stage depth and all of that. About everything improves. I also had 15v farad with all upgrades, fuse, rodium inlet, silver dc cable etc on scaler. 

You prob used the wrong lps on your system because a good one should take away all you mention not add? 

All this btw improved when i had the scaler in my chain. It was when i changed the amps i went for a different sound i liked more. But the improvements always add up sequentially.


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## Somatic (Jun 30, 2022)

So it’s Friday. Anyone drinking or smoking a little and listening to music today to unwind?

I sometimes don’t get enough time with my setup as I would like. I listen during work when I can but after work it’s hard to get time as I have young kids and am tired.

Edit: Ooops. Forgot its Thursday. I have tomorrow off from work so just assumed it was Friday.


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## ZappaMan

Somatic said:


> So it’s Friday. Anyone drinking or smoking a little and listening to music today to unwind?
> 
> I sometimes don’t get enough time with my setup as I would like. I listen during work when I can but after work it’s hard to get time as I have young kids and am tired.


Where you live ?


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## Somatic

ZappaMan said:


> Where you live ?


Oh lol. Yeah I’m in the US.


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## ZappaMan

Somatic said:


> Oh lol. Yeah I’m in the US.


You’re starting early then, what time of the day is it?


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## MvRBE10

Its 1 at night here, going home tommorow so i can enjoy listening again, ordered a few caps to try and got some meraki switches to build and upgrade doing some cascading. And some glass fiber connections. So busy week is coming up again after a hard week of holiday. man life is good 😊


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## ra990

Somatic said:


> So it’s Friday. Anyone drinking or smoking a little and listening to music today to unwind?
> 
> I sometimes don’t get enough time with my setup as I would like. I listen during work when I can but after work it’s hard to get time as I have young kids and am tired.


Not Friday yet, but yes, I'm right there with you.


----------



## Somatic

ZappaMan said:


> You’re starting early then, what time of the day is it?


6:22 PM CT. We have July 4th weekend off. No work Friday or Monday for me. I also took a few more days off as well. Time to relax. 

#vacationmode


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## ZappaMan

I often wonder whether some audio reviewers partake of a smoke to help them - feel the energy…. Get the creative juices flowing…


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## ZappaMan

Somatic said:


> 6:22 PM CT. We have July 4th weekend off. No work Friday or Monday for me. I also took a few more days off as well. Time to relax.
> 
> #vacationmode


Perfect time to rearrange everything so the cables aren’t touching etc. the audiophile life is demanding of time but rewarding in escapism.


----------



## thunder 99

zen87192 said:


> That may be answered soon when the Choral MScaler (2) is introduced. My prediction is that many ex-DAVE owners may return once this is released with it possibly gaining glowing reviews.


Whats the choral M Scaler?


----------



## Triode User

thunder 99 said:


> Whats the choral M Scaler?


All we know is it will be a new version of the Mscaler to join the Dave in the Choral range. It is therefore expected to be a similar footprint and price range to the Dave. It will not replace the Hugo range of Mscaler which will remain. The last mention of a release date was later this year. 

If it has the same SQ difference compared to the Hugo Mscaler as the Dave does compared to the Hugo TT2 then it will be very special.


----------



## Triode User

MvRBE10 said:


> I know nick bacon has alot of research in his system and invested a serious amount of money in it and it works also for him but there are also a few with the same experience as me.


Yeah, I have been using a Sean Jacobs LPS to power my Dave for more than two years, first with a Sean Jacobs DC3, then a DC4 and now with the upgraded ARC6 version. Initially I also had a feeling that the Dave sounded so good with the DC3 power supply upgrade that I wondered if I really needed the Mscaler. Indeed I often found myself just listening to solo Dave but now I can 100% say that with my 2 1/2 years of listening to my Sean Jacobs powered Dave it still definitely sounds better with the Mscaler. I used to power my Mscaler with a Farad Super3 but when I first started to use the DC3 with the Dave I changed the Mscaler power to DC3 as well because to my ears that sounded better than the Farad, less fatiguing etc. 

As is usual I do not think that one can generalise about things. Not all LPS powering the Dave are the same. I used to have a Farad Super3 with my Qutest but I changed that to a DC4 and it was as if a whole new DAC had been put in my system. The difference was stunning. So when you hear the Farad powered Dave as sound better than when you had the Farad powered Mscaler in your system I do not doubt you but equally that does not ring true for my DC4 / ARC6 powered Dave and Mscaler which simply gets better and better for having the Mscaler in the system. I have not yet heard a Farad powered Dave but if my Qutest experience is anything to go by then there is a huge difference between a DC4 and a Farad Super3 and bear in mind that the DC4 has since been upgraded with the ARC6.

So I share your enthusiasm for a LPS powered Dave but based on my experience I suspect you are just at the beginning of the journey rather than end game and that there is more to come with the SQ that you can get from your Dave with an LPS. Keep enjoying the music!!


----------



## Reactcore

MvRBE10 said:


> Mattijs explained it to me when you try to remove as much feedback in your analogue system in the music chain as possible everything will open up and become musical. As every form of feedback will kind of clogh the signal and degrade it but make it measure better. Its the ultimate fight designers of amps and all that stuff have. You can make it measure like killer but all that compensating and feedback in systems kills the music.



Feedback is normally applied to set and keep a OP stage steady at a certain amplification level but feedback can also give oscillation noise.. what we dont want is this to get signal correlated (noise modulation)

With a feedback lacking design its a challenge to keep the amplification level itself not to correlate with the signal.

In the end its best to have the least stages as possible.. a non excisting circuit cant degrade anything.


----------



## Reactcore

Triode User said:


> I often found myself just listening to solo Dave but now I can 100% say that with my 2 1/2 years of listening to my Sean Jacobs powered Dave it still definitely sounds better with the Mscaler.



I took my scaler out for a while.. but really miss its effect on the ambiance, texture of notes and being able to follow and understand songtexts..

With headphones its just too appearent..
no its absolutely going back in.


----------



## muski

shaylin3 said:


> Has it been used with VIBRAPOD CONE?


Yes, I use the cone as well...


----------



## burbster

MvRBE10 said:


> I know but its really system depended, it worked very well for me for a full year but i really think its depending on your synergy with the components in the system. And what you are seeking yourself also. It surely upped my system in my old setup. I know nick bacon has alot of research in his system and invested a serious amount of money in it and it works also for him but there are also a few with the same experience as me. So we are not all the same and seeking other things i guess in our guest for audio nirvana. A different path and aproach does not lead to the same components using. But it does not mean the old or the new is good or not good just different. And maybe a year from now i changed it all again…. Its fun


Just to add my experience, I was an early adopter of the MScaler, paying my deposit prior to release date (after home demoing the BluMk2). I have owned it for around 4 years and used it with several digital sources I owned over that period of time, Auralic, Melco, Innuos and Antipodes to name a few. Without exception, the MScaler improved the sound quality significantly. However, over the last few weeks, after some comments on this forum, I have been placing the MScaler in and out of the chain and listening intently. I currently have the DC4 PSU in my Dave and have recently moved to a CDT as my sole source (Aqua La Diva Mk2) Initially, due to the config of my rack, in order to feed the CDT directly from my Dave I had to use an inferior Co-Axial cable, and whilst I noticed some surprising differences, I still marginally preferred the sound with MScaler in the chain. But after re-jigging things, to make it a fair comparison I used my normal Co-axial cable (the one that I had used from CDT to MScaler), to go between the CDT and Dave, that's when things changed. I wont go into detail, but I am now totally convinced that my setup sounds better without the MScaler. Like I said this is the first time this has ever happened in my setup. My primitive theory, is the Aqua CDT gives out far less noise and has a better internal clock than MScaler.  I know perceived wisdom is that DAVE is immune to jitter, but is it totally immune or just less affected by Jitter than other DACS, but still nonetheless affected??? Hans B, had a similar experience with Grim MU1, he could not explain it either. 
(I used a Farad3 supply and the cheaper Stream cables with the HMS)


----------



## SteveHulk

And would you believe it.

A tax invoice from FedEx for valves that were delivered at the beginning of APRIL has just landed on my doorstep! At the beginning of JULY! 🤬

The FedEx UPS TNT nightmare continues...

Honestly, trade with the EU is just going to become impossible at this rate.

🤬 Brexit.


----------



## SteveHulk

I have just picked up the DAVE and I received this via email... 

"Here's a brief description of the repair:
Faulty cap C248 / replaced
Replace PSU as precaution
Firmware updated /Display replaced / All tested"

All at zero cost. 

Wow. Just wow.


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## alxw0w (Jul 1, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> I have just picked up the DAVE and I received this via email...
> 
> "Here's a brief description of the repair:
> Faulty cap C248 / replaced
> ...


Kudos to Chord for such customer service. I'm wondering what was updated in the firmware.
@Rob Watts anything we should know about?


----------



## chesebert

SteveHulk said:


> I have just picked up the DAVE and I received this via email...
> 
> "Here's a brief description of the repair:
> Faulty cap C248 / replaced
> ...


Time to rip out that POS replacement PSU


----------



## zen87192

SteveHulk said:


> And would you believe it.
> 
> A tax invoice from FedEx for valves that were delivered at the beginning of APRIL has just landed on my doorstep! At the beginning of JULY! 🤬
> 
> ...


I'm still waiting for FedEx to find, pick then deliver my Farad Package! Bloody nightmare. 10 Days since landed and still not found and delivered. They confirm all taxes paid so delay is unknown to them.


----------



## zen87192

SteveHulk said:


> I have just picked up the DAVE and I received this via email...
> 
> "Here's a brief description of the repair:
> Faulty cap C248 / replaced
> ...


Fantastic news! Very interested with the Firmware Update info if ever made public. Also, was the power supply replaced with exactly the same as the original? Just interested. Looking forward to your further review of the Farad Power install. Have a great weekend!


----------



## SteveHulk

zen87192 said:


> I'm still waiting for FedEx to find, pick then deliver my Farad Package! Bloody nightmare. 10 Days since landed and still not found and delivered. They confirm all taxes paid so delay is unknown to them.


I would "like" your post but I hardly think like is appropriate.

So here are some angry faces for you. They are yours to deploy as you see fit. 

😡😡😡🤬🤬🤬


----------



## Somatic

SteveHulk said:


> I have just picked up the DAVE and I received this via email...
> 
> "Here's a brief description of the repair:
> Faulty cap C248 / replaced
> ...


Man that’s so cool. I would be stoked.


----------



## paulrbarnard

I’m discovering some DAVE magic. It actually does an incredible job with low quantity data. I usually play high sample rate FLAC or stream from QoBuz. I just played a low res file from my old iTunes library 256kbps AAC and it sounds pretty dammed fine. I wasn’t expecting that.


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## MvRBE10 (Jul 1, 2022)

zen87192 said:


> Fantastic news! Very interested with the Firmware Update info if ever made public. Also, was the power supply replaced with exactly the same as the original? Just interested. Looking forward to your further review of the Farad Power install. Have a great weekend!


I compared pictures of different ages dave and i think there were three versions power supply used in the dave. All had diff serial stickers etc. But prob the same specs. Nothing special. These cost the same as a post-stamp if bought in numbers.

 I think underneath the display is a pcb screw that has to be removed when the main pcb has to come out. The display i think is sort of sticked on to it. I can image they replace it to be safe.

We also found that the early daves have different cnc measurement of the top lid and casing. Top gap is tighter and gap in the main body is less deep. So somewere during production changed or company change and drawings were revised maybe due to different ac inlet company. These things happen.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jul 1, 2022)

Just going back to the Farad install procedure...

When removing the eight bolts which secure the porthole ring, I recommend gradually loosening them in a diagonal sequence.

I do not think it is a good idea to start at one bolt and then work around the porthole removing the bolts as you go. If you do this then there will be a time when the porthole is still tightly secured on one side and completely free on the other. At this point the metal ring might distort so cracking the glass. 

Thinking of the eight bolts as being on the points of a compass, a suitable diagonal sequence might be N S E W NW SE NE SW. Loosen the bolts gradually so that you have to do the sequence at least twice before all the bolts are completely loose and can be removed just with fingers. When replacing the porthole cover also do a diagonal sequence while tightening the bolts. 

As a child, I often helped my brother strip and rebuild motorcycle engines. This kind of diagonal sequence was essential when working on cylinder heads. Otherwise the head could distort causing gasket leaks and even severely damaging the camshafts. 

When I was working on the DAVE, I used these diagonal sequences without thinking about it. 

Another point I might make is to try to avoid using a tool with a long lever on these bolts. Aluminium is a comparatively soft metal and it would be very easy to strip the threads in the lid if using a tool that can exert too much torque. 

A good rule of thumb in these situations is: tighten until finger tight and use the tool to turn no more than a quarter turn beyond that. 

I hope this helps to keep you SJ and Farad adopters safe!


----------



## SteveHulk

zen87192 said:


> Fantastic news! Very interested with the Firmware Update info if ever made public. Also, was the power supply replaced with exactly the same as the original? Just interested. Looking forward to your further review of the Farad Power install. Have a great weekend!


I do not know anything about the firmware update.

Neither do I know anything about possible variations in the psu that have been used.

(Chord please look away now! 😀) 
When I open the lid again if I notice any differences I will mention them here.

Everything will have to bed in again and then I'll get my listening hat back on.


----------



## Rob Watts

alxw0w said:


> Kudos to Chord for such customer service. I'm wondering what was updated in the firmware.
> @Rob Watts anything we should know about?



The new display requires a different protocol to drive it, so the FPGA needs updating. No change to SQ at all.



SteveHulk said:


> I do not know anything about the firmware update.
> 
> Neither do I know anything about possible variations in the psu that have been used.
> 
> ...



Please listen to the unit first. Don't assume linear PSU is better...


----------



## Somatic

Rob Watts said:


> The new display requires a different protocol to drive it, so the FPGA needs updating. No change to SQ at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Please listen to the unit first. Don't assume linear PSU is better...


I would assume @SteveHulk has been listening to the stock power supply for 5+ years. It would be cool if someone had 2 Dave’s and did a A/B.


----------



## zen87192 (Jul 1, 2022)

Yah.... Two DAVE's in dual mono giving out 2 million Taps (with Scalers)... wussssuupppp....😁


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> I would assume @SteveHulk has been listening to the stock power supply for 5+ years. It would be cool if someone had 2 Dave’s and did a A/B.


I did that but with another custom psu, not the Farad. I think Dave's internal filtering and the stock psu are clearly thought as a package deal. If Farad has considered this, great, but the other modified psu clearly hadn't. It sounded better than my stock Dave on a high end speaker rig, but fell apart with direct headphone listening. It was much worse.  Then again it was never tested for this during development.
   Make of it what you will, but I got home and ordered the Isotek Genesis One. I now keep it plugged into my Isotek Aquarius (the cumulative effect is to die for) and I would describe this improvement more significant than what i heard with the custom Dave on the speaker rig. It's also more expansive sadly.
     Yes, power improvements do the scale with Dave tremendously, but not all modifications are actual improvements.


----------



## alxw0w (Jul 1, 2022)

adrianm said:


> I did that but with another custom psu, not the Farad. I think Dave's internal filtering and the stock psu are clearly thought as a package deal. If Farad has considered this, great, but the other modified psu clearly hadn't. It sounded better than my stock Dave on a high end speaker rig, but fell apart with direct headphone listening. It was much worse.  Then again it was never tested for this during development.
> Make of it what you will, but I got home and ordered the Isotek Genesis One. I now keep it plugged into my Isotek Aquarius (the cumulative effect is to die for) and I would describe this improvement more significant than what i heard with the custom Dave on the speaker rig. It's also more expansive sadly.
> Yes, power improvements do the scale with Dave tremendously, but not all modifications are actual improvements.


If it sounded worse on headphones then it also should sound bad on speakers. If it sounded good on speakers it should also sound good on headphones.

So your opinion is... Strange. Or in another words useless. Sorry


----------



## adrianm

alxw0w said:


> If it sounded worse on headphones then it also should sound bad on speakers. If it sounded good on speakers it should also sound good on headphones.
> 
> So your opinion is... Strange. Or in another words useless. Sorry


Wow, I came back to this thread after a month and took me 30 seconds to regret it.  The reason Dave sounds better after optimization is less noise. As Rob explained, an LPSU  will probably inject more noise and make it sound worse. Direct to (THAT ) modified  Dave you're plugging right into an amp with a dumpster fire of a power delivery system. If you go through 30k worth of pre+ amp before outputting to speakers those might actually change the equation. Shocking, i know. 
     Didn't take you for a zealot before but it looks like the echo chambers do their thing. FWIW i also thought the Farad3 sounded worse on the M-scaler than the stock wall wart and the M-scaler was unlistenable unless on a battery, so make of that what you will.
       I'm off, enjoy.


----------



## ZappaMan

adrianm said:


> Wow, I came back to this thread after a month and took me 30 seconds to regret it.  The reason Dave sounds better after optimization is less noise. As Rob explained, an LPSU  will probably inject more noise and make it sound worse. Direct to (THAT ) modified  Dave you're plugging right into an amp with a dumpster fire of a power delivery system. If you go through 30k worth of pre+ amp before outputting to speakers those might actually change the equation. Shocking, i know.
> Didn't take you for a zealot before but it looks like the echo chambers do their thing. FWIW i also thought the Farad3 sounded worse on the M-scaler than the stock wall wart and the M-scaler was unlistenable unless on a battery, so make of that what you will.
> I'm off, enjoy.


I think his opinion was just jokingly strong. This thread is like audiophile cage fighting. 

Don’t tap out.


----------



## Somatic

alxw0w said:


> I'm trying as hard as I can not to buy farad3 for my Dave.
> But I'm sure I won't last long ☺️


Come join the dark side


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## alxw0w (Jul 2, 2022)

adrianm said:


> Wow, I came back to this thread after a month and took me 30 seconds to regret it.  The reason Dave sounds better after optimization is less noise. As Rob explained, an LPSU  will probably inject more noise and make it sound worse. Direct to (THAT ) modified  Dave you're plugging right into an amp with a dumpster fire of a power delivery system. If you go through 30k worth of pre+ amp before outputting to speakers those might actually change the equation. Shocking, i know.
> Didn't take you for a zealot before but it looks like the echo chambers do their thing. FWIW i also thought the Farad3 sounded worse on the M-scaler than the stock wall wart and the M-scaler was unlistenable unless on a battery, so make of that what you will.
> I'm off, enjoy.


I didn't want to be harsh sorry.
I just dont understand how it's possible that on headphones it sounded worse but on speakers it was better i don't understand this. It doesn't make sense.

Ps. I hope we are fine


----------



## alxw0w

Somatic said:


> Come join the dark side


I will, at some point, probably.


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## Christer (Jul 2, 2022)

Somatic said:


> I would assume @SteveHulk has been listening to the stock power supply for 5+ years. It would be cool if someone had 2 Dave’s and did a A/B.


Hmm, isn´t that exactly what Triode User  ie Nick Bacon  mentioned having, quite a while back? Two Dave dacs ,one stock Dave, and one with an "outboard" linear PSU?
Cheers CC


----------



## Triode User

Christer said:


> Hmm, isn´t that exactly what Triode User  ie Nick Bacon  mentioned having, quite a while back? Two Dave dacs ,one stock Dave, and one with an "outboard" linear PSU?
> Cheers CC


Yes, indeed that is exactly how I compared. One stock Dave and one with the Sean Jacobs power supply. And now SJ recently asked to borrow my ears for a possible add on update for his ARC6 and that is how I have been again comparing (the update is installed within the Dave). So, one Dave without the update and one with the updated component. It is the only method of reliably comparing one with the other.


----------



## ZappaMan

It’s a pity the critics of linear power couldn’t mention objective reasons why it impacts sq. 

Using an example and say, “when listening to this test track, this sequence is suppressed or revealed”, or some objective way to move this debate forward.


----------



## Christer

Triode User said:


> Yes, indeed that is exactly how I compared. One stock Dave and one with the Sean Jacobs power supply. And now SJ recently asked to borrow my ears for a possible add on update for his ARC6 and that is how I have been again comparing (the update is installed within the Dave). So, one Dave without the update and one with the updated component. It is the only method of reliably comparing one with the other.


Thanks Nick, imho one needs one more important "ingredience" to make an  as objective and reliable a comparison as possible, which is  by using a good recording  of unamplified acoustic instruments,ideally one where one also has direct reference to how things sounded live in the hall. Good to know that Rob also has got at least one such recording now. Cheers CC


----------



## Somatic

ZappaMan said:


> It’s a pity the critics of linear power couldn’t mention objective reasons why it impacts sq.
> 
> Using an example and say, “when listening to this test track, this sequence is suppressed or revealed”, or some objective way to move this debate forward.


I mean objectively Rob mentions something about LPS adding random RF noise I believe. Subjective comparisons on specific tracks would be a nice addition to the discussion.


----------



## Christer

Somatic said:


> I mean objectively Rob mentions something about LPS adding random RF noise I believe. Subjective comparisons on specific tracks would be a nice addition to the discussion.





Somatic said:


> I mean objectively Rob mentions something about LPS adding random RF noise I believe. Subjective comparisons on specific tracks would be a nice addition to the discussion.


Well one  such track I would suggest is Rob´s own recent  Blumlein  test recording made in a church.
From my personal  limited perspective of only being able to make such a comparison via my Qutest/Mscaler, still no Dave here or even TT2, but  both via  good headphones and  my Electrostatic speakers,battery power sounds more effortless ,fuller bodied and  audibly closer to how I am used to hearing acoustic instruments like violins ,cello, and piano  and also the female voice,  live than when  using the stock power smps  of my Qutest.
 And from reading  what Triode User and many others say ,I also  have reasons to suspect that even Dave has been through if not, "a severe haircut" as Steve Hulk put it, but very possibly  at least a bit of a haircut. 
  I know my Qutest has been subjected to "corner cutting" not only via its smps wallwart "thingy" but also via  its horrible little micro usb connection which  may not be any limiting factor as such SQ-wise.
But that is a really annoying flimsy  little connection that bugs me on a daily basis. In other respects Qutest is a good dac. Not quite Dave or even TT2  territory,but at least reasonably  affordable and quite transparent.
 Cheers CC


----------



## SteveHulk (Jul 2, 2022)

Christer said:


> I know my Qutest has been subjected to "corner cutting" not only via its smps wallwart "thingy" but also via  its horrible little micro usb connection which  may not be any limiting factor as such SQ-wise.
> But that is a really annoying flimsy  little connection that bugs me on a daily basis. In other respects Qutest is a good dac. Not quite Dave or even TT2  territory,but at least reasonably  affordable and quite transparent.
> Cheers CC


I spoke with Rob and John at a CanJam in London one time on a specifically this issue.

It seemed to me that the burgeoning mobile audio industry was making a bad choice when going with USB B micro as the connection of choice.

It is good enough for "transportable" systems where the system is moved bodily from one location to another, set in place, and then connected up.

But for a portable ie truly mobile system it is nothing like robust enough. While the user is moving about it is far too easy for the connection to be disturbed with annoying stops in the music.

A far better choice for mobile systems would be the USB B midi connection as used extensively in cameras and camcorders for precisely the reason that these devices are generally in motion while being used. 

The USB midi is perfect as it is a much more robust connection.

All the Chord devices that use micro have easily enough space in the casework to mount midi sockets.

I still think USB B midi should have been Chord's choice.


----------



## dusty.ro

SteveHulk said:


> I still think USB B midi should have been Chord's choice.


Absolutely. miniUSB and microUSB are the worst. I had so many issues with these over the years that I now despise them.


----------



## dusty.ro

This week I sold my Rockna Wavelight and got the Dave. I had the Chord Dave in for a review, spent a month listening to it and in the end I couldn't let it go back. I found this thread very helpful, because of you I found out about the PSU upgrade, which I definitely wanna do. Not sure if I should get the MScaller first. I'll ask for one for a review and decide then, I guess. I'll just leave a photo of my setup bellow.


----------



## chesebert

dusty.ro said:


> This week I sold my Rockna Wavelight and got the Dave. I had the Chord Dave in for a review, spent a month listening to it and in the end I couldn't let it go back. I found this thread very helpful, because of you I found out about the PSU upgrade, which I definitely wanna do. Not sure if I should get the MScaller first. I'll ask for one for a review and decide then, I guess. I'll just leave a photo of my setup bellow.


let me take a guess: you bought both dac blind. Am I right?


----------



## dusty.ro

chesebert said:


> let me take a guess: you bought both dac blind. Am I right?


No. I just said I had the Dave for a review for a month before buying it. So I had plenty of time with it before making my mind. As for the Wavelight, I had it for some listening from friends before buying it.


----------



## chesebert

dusty.ro said:


> No. I just said I had the Dave for a review for a month before buying it. So I had plenty of time with it before making my mind. As for the Wavelight, I had it for some listening from friends before buying it.


you are right - I can't read  I was just a bit surprised that you liked Dave better in the chain with Susvara given you had Wavelight at the same time. Just curious, it's personal audio for a reason.


----------



## dusty.ro

chesebert said:


> you are right - I can't read  I was just a bit surprised that you liked Dave better in the chain with Susvara given you had Wavelight at the same time. Just curious, it's personal audio for a reason.


Why is that? Do people around here do not like this combo? I find the OOR slightly warm and that creates a good combo with Dave. I'm a sucker for great dynamics, fast transients, details, large stage, separation and imaging. Dave beats the Wavelight on all categories. Not to say that Wavelight is bad, it's a great dac, but Dave is another league.


----------



## chesebert

dusty.ro said:


> Why is that? Do people around here do not like this combo? I find the OOR slightly warm and that creates a good combo with Dave. I'm a sucker for great dynamics, fast transients, details, large stage, separation and imaging. Dave beats the Wavelight on all categories. Not to say that Wavelight is bad, it's a great dac, but Dave is another league.


Ok, I haven't had my morning coffee so forgive me on this - I misread Wavelight as Wavedream.... But I think based on your preference you may prefer Dave regardless.


----------



## dusty.ro

chesebert said:


> Ok, I haven't had my morning coffee so forgive me on this - I misread Wavelight as Wavedream.... But I think based on your preference you may prefer Dave regardless.


Oh, I haven't had a chance to listen to Wavedream intimately, just in a showroom, which is not enough to make a lasting impression on me.


----------



## zen87192

dusty.ro said:


> This week I sold my Rockna Wavelight and got the Dave. I had the Chord Dave in for a review, spent a month listening to it and in the end I couldn't let it go back. I found this thread very helpful, because of you I found out about the PSU upgrade, which I definitely wanna do. Not sure if I should get the MScaller first. I'll ask for one for a review and decide then, I guess. I'll just leave a photo of my setup bellow.


Excellent.... a Lego collector.... welcome.... I'll be using my Lego with my photos next time ... very effective... well done!


----------



## zen87192

By the way.... I like those Sandwich makers on the left hand side.... awesome! 🤣


----------



## zen87192

But seriously.... an awesome set up you have there.... I'm envious... Happy Listening 🎶 😁


----------



## dusty.ro

zen87192 said:


> By the way.... I like those Sandwich makers on the left hand side.... awesome! 🤣


You mean the Keces P3? Those power the switch, the media converter, the streamer and the ddc. Roon is running on that Mac Mini.


----------



## dusty.ro

zen87192 said:


> Excellent.... a Lego collector.... welcome.... I'll be using my Lego with my photos next time ... very effective... well done!


I got it for my birthday. Spent all day building it. Best day ever.


----------



## Slim1970

dusty.ro said:


> Why is that? Do people around here do not like this combo? I find the OOR slightly warm and that creates a good combo with Dave. I'm a sucker for great dynamics, fast transients, details, large stage, separation and imaging. Dave beats the Wavelight on all categories. Not to say that Wavelight is bad, it's a great dac, but Dave is another league.


Those sonic properties you described is why I prefer the Dave over a lot of other DAC's.


----------



## Reactcore

dusty.ro said:


> This week I sold my Rockna Wavelight and got the Dave.



Nice setup👍 welcome to the club!
I see you have your network optically isolated.

You mainly listen to headphones?
Isnt that the hard to drive Susvara?


----------



## dusty.ro

Reactcore said:


> Nice setup👍 welcome to the club!
> I see you have your network optically isolated.
> 
> You mainly listen to headphones?
> Isnt that the hard to drive Susvara?


Thank you. Yes, I isolated the network signal using an optical conversion. There was a discussion about this on a local forum and it made me curious. Since the investment wasn't that big I gave it a go and boy did that make a big difference. So now I'm a believer. The Susvara are a pain to drive but the Ferrum OOR does the job. I also tried the iFi Pro iCAN Signature, Flux Volot and the Burson Soloist 3X GT and decided on the Ferrum OOR. I mainly listen to headphones, but I also have a stereo setup which I want to improve. I'm currently selling it so I can get something better.


----------



## Somatic

dusty.ro said:


> Thank you. Yes, I isolated the network signal using an optical conversion. There was a discussion about this on a local forum and it made me curious. Since the investment wasn't that big I gave it a go and boy did that make a big difference. So now I'm a believer. The Susvara are a pain to drive but the Ferrum OOR does the job. I also tried the iFi Pro iCAN Signature, Flux Volot and the Burson Soloist 3X GT and decided on the Ferrum OOR. I mainly listen to headphones, but I also have a stereo setup which I want to improve. I'm currently selling it so I can get something better.


Can you go more in detail how you isolated the network signal? I would like to learn. Thanks


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jul 2, 2022)

I am using two cisco meraki ms220-8p switched and added an fsp optical module. So ones by my router and the other near my streamer and between then glasfiber connection. This seperates the router and all that stuf galvanic from my audio and streamer. They also got there own phase power group. But there are many roads that lead to rome.


----------



## dusty.ro (Jul 2, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> I am using two cisco meraki ms220-8p switched and added an fsp optical module. So ones by my router and the other near my streamer and between then glasfiber connection. This seperates the router and all that stuf galvanic from my audio and streamer. They also got there own phase power group. But there are many roads that lead to rome.


Like this. Network cable comes from the router into a Ubiquiti switch. The switch has SFP modules, so I added one for an optical connection. From the SFP module I run an opical cable to a TPLink media converter which recieves the optical cable and outputs a regular RJ45 connection. From this connection I run a RJ45 network cable to the streamer. In my case the switch and the media converter are powered by a liniar power supply with 12V and 9V. The optical cable is a duplex, meaning one for transmission and one for receiving. The optical port on the media converter supports this configuration. This is cheap to do, something like $150. The power supply is $500 though (Keces P3).


----------



## Triode User

MvRBE10 said:


> I am using two cisco meraki ms220-8p switched and added an fsp optical module. So ones by my router and the other near my streamer and between then glasfiber connection. This seperates the router and all that stuf galvanic from my audio and streamer. They also got there own phase power group. But there are many roads that lead to rome.


My network is also fsp optical isolated from my audio system but even so I found that using an Innuos PhoenixNET helped even more. ‘Helped‘ being defined as getting the sound as being near as possible to the same sound as playing locally stored audio files without the network connected at all.


----------



## dusty.ro

Triode User said:


> My network is also fsp optical isolated from my audio system but even so I found that using an Innuos PhoenixNET helped even more. ‘Helped‘ being defined as getting the sound as being near as possible to the same sound as playing locally stored audio files without the network connected at all.


I didn't want to get into it, but yes, the network switch, the power supply and the network cable do matter. I've got a lot of backlash for talking about cables on head-fi so I try to keep it to a minimum.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jul 2, 2022)

I tend to go somewhat further i have in fact 3 meraki cisco switches, two are upgraded with internal capacitors and indeed external farad power supplies and both have external oxco clock. These two are in cascade before the streamer and the 3 one is with the router. Both are connected indeed by two way class fiber and all switches have the fsp modules. The casade trick was found to have the most gain audio wise (audiophool in holland did alot of testing and sells these upgrades) you can do it yourself or have it done by him. For some reason sounds get more stage and depth. Building the second cascade one still, so on the picture is test setup.

@dusty.ro  cables do matter and switches also 😁.


----------



## dusty.ro

MvRBE10 said:


> I tend to go somewhat further i have in fact 3 meraki cisco switches, two are upgraded with internal capacitors and indeed external farad power supplies and both have external oxco clock. These two are in cascade before the streamer and the 3 one is with the router. Both are connected indeed by two way class fiber and all switches have the fsp modules. The casade trick was found to have the most gain audio wise (audiophool in holland did alot of testing and sells these upgrade) you can do it yourself or by him. For some reason sounds get more stage and depth. Building the second cascade one still, so on the picture is test setup.
> 
> @dusty.ro  cables do matter and switches also 😁.


Excelent stuff!!! I love it when people optimize the s*it out of their system.


----------



## dusty.ro

If you will allow me I'll talk a bit about network cables. I tried a few and the ones that made a sizable difference were the ones made out of silver. I decided to go with Siltech Classic Legend. I also tried Neotech and various Crystal Connect ones, including the TOTL Monet one, I still like the Siltech better.


----------



## zen87192

Anyone running the SFP switch from a wireless BT Disc or Mesh? Any comments or known issues with doing this?


----------



## Triode User

dusty.ro said:


> I didn't want to get into it, but yes, the network switch, the power supply and the network cable do matter. I've got a lot of backlash for talking about cables on head-fi so I try to keep it to a minimum.


Agreed, like I say though, my reference is the sound quality when my network is completely disconnected. I achieve this by starting a local file to playing and then pulling the network cable out of the back of my streamer.


----------



## MvRBE10

dusty.ro said:


> If you will allow me I'll talk a bit about network cables. I tried a few and the ones that made a sizable difference were the ones made out of silver. I decided to go with Siltech Classic Legend. I also tried Neotech and various Crystal Connect ones, including the TOTL Monet one, I still like the Siltech better.


I readed that somewer also this week about the silver in the cable. Audiophool has the pink faun ethernet cable and i think there is also silver in there. Gonna google about that. One sec😁


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jul 2, 2022)

dusty.ro said:


> It posted twice weird?


----------



## dusty.ro

Triode User said:


> Agreed, like I say though, my reference is the sound quality when my network is completely disconnected. I achieve this by starting a local file to playing and then pulling the network cable out of the back of my streamer.


 Do you have the streamer near you and do this for every track? I'm not contesting the result but this is quite extreme.


----------



## MvRBE10

Triode User said:


> Agreed, like I say though, my reference is the sound quality when my network is completely disconnected. I achieve this by starting a local file to playing and then pulling the network cable out of the back of my streamer.


Correct, did that when all was in and no change.. but cant operate the streamer without but indeed with just the rj45 in the streamer it gets duller. And after the three …. Its no change what so ever. Got me these merakis for 100,- on ebay. The lps’s and modifications are a bit more expensive but the fsp modules and cables are really cheap.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jul 2, 2022)

dusty.ro said:


> Do you have the streamer near you and do this for every track? I'm not contesting the result but this is quite extreme.


I asume you mean the ethernet cable for your last meter to the streamer not the cat6A

What legend do you have, only 380D i see now.


----------



## alxw0w

Not trying to mock you guys or anything.
Just asking. 
Have you tried wifi instead going crazy with optical isolation network reclockers etc?
I don't want to think now about my network optimization but I know that it's inevitable at some point. Hence my question.


----------



## Triode User

MvRBE10 said:


> Correct, did that when all was in and no change.. but cant operate the streamer without but indeed with just the rj45 in the streamer it gets duller. And after the three …. Its no change what so ever. Got me these merakis for 100,- on ebay. The lps’s and modifications are a bit more expensive but the fsp modules and cables are really cheap.


I’m not quite sure I understand your methodology. Cannot you play the locally stored files without the streamer connected? Also, in passing, what software do you use for playback?


----------



## MvRBE10

alxw0w said:


> Not trying to mock you guys or anything.
> Just asking.
> Have you tried wifi instead going crazy with optical isolation network reclockers etc?
> I don't want to think now about my network optimization but I know that it's inevitable at some point. Hence my question.


You mean a wifi extender on the switch to the streamer. That would indeed take over the glas section. 

But my last 2 meraki’s also reclock’s and the clean power seems to be somewhat good for that last meter to the streamer. 

But elborate i always want to learn more and try


----------



## MvRBE10

Triode User said:


> I’m not quite sure I understand your methodology. Cannot you play the locally stored files without the streamer connected? Also, in passing, what software do you use for playback?


My streamer plays perfectly without internet got 8Tb on ssd but to operate the aurender i need a local ethernet connection. But i can pull it out on the fly no problem to test the sound.


----------



## alxw0w (Jul 2, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> You mean a wifi extender on the switch to the streamer. That would indeed take over the glas section.


Yes, just get rid of all cables and additional power supplies in the chain. As i believe that's what you are hearing, it's just noise it's spectrum and quantity. But that's just my big guess.

Like @Triode User said. When he let his streamer to buffer the song and he disconnect the cable it's the best quality. So the only thing he is getting rid of is cable so connection to potential noise source.

Edit. Maybe not wifi extender but use wifi that is built in streamer, some streamers have that.


----------



## Triode User

alxw0w said:


> Edit. Maybe not wifi extender but use wifi that is built in streamer, some streamers have that.


I’m not a great fan of wifi. Why would one knowingly put a radio frequency transmitter inside a streamer?


----------



## Triode User

MvRBE10 said:


> My streamer plays perfectly without internet got 8Tb on ssd but to operate the aurender i need a local ethernet connection. But i can pull it out on the fly no problem to test the sound.


Thanks, yes that is what I do, for comparison I set an album playing and then pull the network cable from the back of the streamer. The arrangement I have now with the network connected matches that sound.


----------



## alxw0w (Jul 2, 2022)

Triode User said:


> I’m not a great fan of wifi. Why would one knowingly put a radio frequency transmitter inside a streamer?


I don't know hard to say without any measurements tools etc. I assume wifi network is always on in your home so there is already "noise" in the air.
Antena is placed outside a streamer so....

As I said it's just my big guess what is going with LAN and what you are guys hearing. I'm just thinking loudly and wondering if anybody did extended test lan vs wifi.

Especially when you pointed that when song is buffered and cable is unplugged it's the best SQ. Once cable is connected SQ is going down... So any reclocking or dejittering of LAN signal is not contributing to sound.


----------



## Reactcore

I was also thinking about fiber network.. but instead i installed a toslink option inside my thinclient server. All music is on local HDD.
Network is mostly used for foobar remote control app. And expanding my collection.

This isolates the same.


----------



## saudio7

You can try CA1000 or M17 as streamer/sorce, battery powered and both have toslink or USB output.


----------



## maxh22

Has anyone tried a Siltech double crown power cable with their Dave? Got one the other day and it made a huge improvement, the sound is even more relaxed with more body, flow, and micro details popping up. Wonder if you any of you guys who bought a Sean jacobs or Farad power supply compared it against a high end siltech power cable.


----------



## zen87192

saudio7 said:


> You can try CA1000 or M17 as streamer/sorce, battery powered and both have toslink or USB output.


I have an M17 connected to my DAVE via USB out of M17 to an SRC-DX then a WAVE Storm. Sounds awesome as it also O/S out of the M17.


----------



## SteveHulk

The DAVE is back in the rack and the valves are warming up...

I'll have a little listen tonight before bed.


----------



## boble

SteveHulk said:


> So I went through the steps to replace the DAVE power supply
> 
> 
> 
> ...


looks like the electrolytic capacitor closest to the headphone jack (lid off) has vented! The top of the cap is distorted!


----------



## SteveHulk

boble said:


> looks like the electrolytic capacitor closest to the headphone jack (lid off) has vented! The top of the cap is distorted!


We noticed that already 🙂 The unit has been back to Chord for repair and returned.


----------



## kenray536

SteveHulk said:


> The DAVE is back in the rack and the valves are warming up...
> 
> I'll have a little listen tonight before bed.


Congrats on getting everything back up so quickly. Looking forward to your impressions. 

Will you be running it with the mscaler as well?


----------



## muski

Somatic said:


> Can you go more in detail how you isolated the network signal? I would like to learn. Thanks


Perhaps the simplest way is using a pair of $20 Fiber Media Converters. which will get you from ethernet to fiber and back again. You then need a pair of SFP modules (they are inserted into the Fiber Media Converter) and a fiber optic cable. I tried a bunch of SFPs, and to my ears the Finisar FTLX8574D3BCV SFP+ module sounded best (Sonore chose them for their Signature opticalRendu). There are also different grades of cables—I tried a few and liked this indoor/outdoor OM3 cable (I run over my roof).

A couple of things to watch for are 1) SFPs and cables can be either singlemode vs multimode—make sure they match, and 2) fiber cables come with different connectors—again make sure they match your SFP. 

Lastly, most of the fiber cables come with little protectors on the end that need to be removed before they're inserted into the SFP. And there are these rubber connectors in the SFPs. I was so clueless when I first got my Sonore opticalRendu I couldn't figure out why I couldn't plug in the cables. 

cheers,
muski

(And, yes, power supplies on the FMC make a difference, and I also use a PhoenixNET before my FMC.)


----------



## SteveHulk

kenray536 said:


> Congrats on getting everything back up so quickly. Looking forward to your impressions.
> 
> Will you be running it with the mscaler as well?


The m scaler will stay in the chain. A lot of changes have been made recently and I want to hear what's going on now with the system stable for a while.


----------



## audio_1 (Jul 3, 2022)

I have the following fibre setup:
Ubiquiti Edge router ER12P
SFP modules: Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFP modules single mode. I chose these as they are the shortest range single mode modules available (10 km)
Fibre: Corning 040402G5Z20020M LC Duplex to LC Duplex Patch cord, 2 fibres, LSZH, 2.0 mm legs, SMF-28® Ultra OS2, 20 metres.
Switch: Melco S100

At the High End show in Munich, I was delighted to see that MSB had chosen the same fibre configuration as I designed on their "MSB Select Digital Direct input selector" They hype it up to justify the cost. "Using our proprietary ProISL laser fiber optic connection".  They are actually using cheap off the shelf FS SFP modules and fibre instead of Finisar and Corning as in my configuration.


----------



## audio_1

SteveHulk said:


> The m scaler will stay in the chain. A lot of changes have been made recently and I want to hear what's going on now with the system stable for a while.


Why would you take it out!


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 3, 2022)

For the ones on the search
Just noticed another 2nd hand Dave posted in Germany for €5.5k..

https://www.audio-markt.de/market/chord-electronics-chord-dave-dac-118591336

That last picture looks familiar.. seen it here before 🤔


----------



## LucyWu

If anyone in the UK is on the lookout for a nice black Dave, a year or so old, Mine might be available...


----------



## Somatic

saudio7 said:


> You can try CA1000 or M17 as streamer/sorce, battery powered and both have toslink or USB output.


Something like a CA1000 with Ethernet would be nice. Although one doesn’t need the dac functionality


----------



## ZappaMan

audio_1 said:


> I have the following fibre setup:
> Ubiquiti Edge router ER12P
> SFP modules: Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFP modules single mode. I chose these as they are the shortest range single mode modules available (10 km)
> Fibre: Corning 040402G5Z20020M LC Duplex to LC Duplex Patch cord, 2 fibres, LSZH, 2.0 mm legs, SMF-28® Ultra OS2, 20 metres.
> ...


Where did you buy them from, could you share links plz?


----------



## zen87192

ZappaMan said:


> Where did you buy them from, could you share links plz?


https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/products/32586-ubiquiti-er-12/

https://switchsfp.com/products/ftlf1318p3btl


----------



## audio_1

ZappaMan said:


> Where did you buy them from, could you share links plz?


Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFP modules:
https://www.mouser.ie/ProductDetail/508-FTLF1318P3BTL

Corning Fibre 040402G5Z20020M LC Duplex to LC Duplex Patch cord, 2 fibres, LSZH, 2.0 mm legs, SMF-28® Ultra OS2, 20 metres
https://www.anixter.com/en_us/produ...able-Assemblies/p/901364?text=040402G5Z20020M
I purchased it from Anixter Ireland directly as it was easier.

I will be selling the Ubiquiti Edge router as I am upgrading my home network and require poe+ 802.3at instead of passive poe if anyone is interested.

https://www.getic.com/product/edgerouter-12p


----------



## SteveHulk

Listening to Supersilent 13 on the full rig.

This varies between a wall of blistering sound and very delicate percussion. Tiny tiny sounds I never heard before.

Massive dynamic range.


----------



## Somatic

SteveHulk said:


> Listening to Supersilent 13 on the full rig.
> 
> This varies between a wall of blistering sound and very delicate percussion. Tiny tiny sounds I never heard before.
> 
> Massive dynamic range.


Why would you think this is the case? Lower noise floor?


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> Why would you think this is the case? Lower noise floor?


I think it probably is lower noise floor. The background is very black.


----------



## MvRBE10

Do you mean you put the dave on your full rigg?


----------



## SteveHulk

Just listened to Boris Berman playing the Prokofiev Piano Sonata #7.

Another hugely demanding and dynamic piece served up with lovely precision. Not the greatest recording as I think the piano is overmiked, but the dynamic range is all there.


----------



## SteveHulk

MvRBE10 said:


> Do you mean you put the dave on your full rigg?


No, I meant the full Cave rig.


----------



## MvRBE10

Aha and some first insights?


----------



## Somatic

Anyone use these hifi rose streamers? Running of lps. Seems cool


----------



## zen87192 (Jul 3, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Anyone use these hifi rose streamers? Running of lps. Seems cool


Looked at the 150B but I heard about a few issues with freezing programs, random powering down and limited library playback. Decided against it. Shame, as the display looks great. Also, no Amazon HD but that's not a deal breaker. I ended up with a Silent Angel M1T, Forrester LPS and N8 Switch. I also listen via my Fiio M17 DAP plugged in via USB/SRC-DX & Wave.


----------



## SteveHulk

MvRBE10 said:


> Aha and some first insights?


It is a superb upgrade.

No going back for me.


----------



## Powersquat

SteveHulk said:


> It is a superb upgrade.
> 
> No going back for me.



Well that's a good endorsement, more food for thought, I'm still considering my options, hopefully at some point there will be a direct comparison between the two current offerings.


----------



## Somatic

SteveHulk said:


> It is a superb upgrade.
> 
> No going back for me.


Nice @SteveHulk. Making me excited to get the farad3 soon. Did you find the Farad3 to be a more discernible upgrade than when you added the Mscaler? 

Later down the road I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Mscaler vs no mscaler when using farad3.  I’m happy you are enjoying it. The price seems fair compared to Sean jacobs. I can imagine Sean jacobs lps is better but I’m okay with the price of the Farad3.


----------



## Reactcore

SteveHulk said:


> I think it probably is lower noise floor. The background is very black.



I heard a Farad'ed Dave next to my stock.
And i was suprised at the changes too.

But i dont believe its less RF and noisefloor.. but more current reserve in the capacitors since it was the low end that got 'boosted'. 

Noisefloor has its effect on the trebble making it sound a bit harsch.. and i didnt hear much of a change there.

I have supercaps as those in TT2 coming my way.. i will install them directly on the OP power rails. This will test my theory.


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jul 4, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> I heard a Farad'ed Dave next to my stock.
> And i was suprised at the changes too.
> 
> But i dont believe its less RF and noisefloor.. but more current reserve in the capacitors since it was the low end that got 'boosted'.
> ...


It is most likely the extra current reserve. The same thing happened with my DAVE when I added the Sean Jacobs DC4. All of the sudden I can drive TCs and Susvaras out of my DAVE with adequate bass, something that did not occur with a stock DAVE.


----------



## zen87192

Farad Super 3 Package out for delivery today by 6pm! 🥳
'Only' 12 days later than the original scheduled delivery after the FedEx 'Hoo-Haa' placed in wrong depot location but better late than never..... or even longer...


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> Nice @SteveHulk. Making me excited to get the farad3 soon. Did you find the Farad3 to be a more discernible upgrade than when you added the Mscaler?
> 
> Later down the road I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Mscaler vs no mscaler when using farad3.  I’m happy you are enjoying it. The price seems fair compared to Sean jacobs. I can imagine Sean jacobs lps is better but I’m okay with the price of the Farad3.


Yes I think the Farad is a more discernable upgrade.

It's the ability to reproduce very tiny sounds that amazes me.

When I auditioned the m scaler it brought out details that I liked so I bought it.

The Farad does much more in the same vein.

But also the bass is much deeper and stronger. No matter how low the music goes, the rig goes down there and gets it. 

For my rig it's not about the DAVE output current capability as I listen through the WA5LE, which does the heavy lifting as far as current is concerned.


----------



## MvRBE10

Same for me i listen to speaker system no current needed, it was the coherence the image and stage and bass texture that improved alot. Detail came clearer i think because its easier to detect and find everything in the music.


----------



## Triode User

Reactcore said:


> I heard a Farad'ed Dave next to my stock.
> And i was suprised at the changes too.
> 
> But i dont believe its less RF and noisefloor.. but more current reserve in the capacitors since it was the low end that got 'boosted'.
> ...


With my current (yeah, pun intended) version of Sean Jacobs power supply for the Dave the treble is one area where I notice a big difference as well as with the bass. The treble is sweeter, smoother and more refined. I have tried quite a few different makes of caps on each output rail with pretty significant differences in the sound between them particularly in the treble. Interestingly this was very much the case on the 5V digital rail supply as well as the analogue supply rails. This has also been proved with the recent upgrade to the Innuos Statement where Innuos have moved to the Sean Jacobs ARC6 power supplies for their digital circuits and have noticed a significant lift in sound quality with that upgraded version of the Statement using several ARC6 supplies in its own power supply case.

It will be interesting to see what you think about trying ‘TT2’ supercaps on the OP power rails. I did once ask SJ why he does not use supercaps and was told that he prefers the lower noise he can obtain with the caps in his power supplies. Have fun and ‘happy tinkering’.


----------



## 801evan

alxw0w said:


> When he let his streamer to buffer the song and he disconnect the cable it's the best quality. So the only thing he is getting rid of is cable so connection to potential noise source.





alxw0w said:


> Edit. Maybe not wifi extender but use wifi that is built in streamer, some streamers have that.





alxw0w said:


> Especially when you pointed that when song is buffered and cable is unplugged it's the best SQ. Once cable is connected SQ is going down... So any reclocking or dejittering of LAN signal is not contributing to sound.



This is all correct and proving the lan cable is an antenna in itself and makes it worse as it creates a coupling. This is why WiFi is like 3x better than lan on my setup.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> I did that but with another custom psu, not the Farad. I think Dave's internal filtering and the stock psu are clearly thought as a package deal. If Farad has considered this, great, but the other modified psu clearly hadn't. It sounded better than my stock Dave on a high end speaker rig, but fell apart with direct headphone listening. It was much worse.  Then again it was never tested for this during development.
> Make of it what you will, but I got home and ordered the Isotek Genesis One. I now keep it plugged into my Isotek Aquarius (the cumulative effect is to die for) and I would describe this improvement more significant than what i heard with the custom Dave on the speaker rig. It's also more expansive sadly.
> Yes, power improvements do the scale with Dave tremendously, but not all modifications are actual improvements.


Was the Dave warmed up for at least 24 hours? It needs this for HP listening. Otherwise it's edgy, thin. Needs to be spdif in too.


----------



## Christer (Jul 4, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> Listening to Supersilent 13 on the full rig.
> 
> This varies between a wall of blistering sound and very delicate percussion. Tiny tiny sounds I never heard before.
> 
> Massive dynamic range.


Interesting to read that you are now hearing "tiny things you never heard before" with your psu change. But please excuse my ignorance,but I have to ask, what exactly  is

Supersilent 13 ??

Personally I am not at all  familar with it.
Is it a Pop Band Track or album, or what is it?

 Now if "Supersilent 13"  is NOT an example of completely unamplfied acoustic instruments played and recorded  in a real  acoustic venue ,to  please a mainly Western Classical Music  and also LOTS of Asian and World Music lover, like me ,who only EVER uses  unamplified acoustic music as valid  Reference point  in any  serious HIFI  comparison context , could you please mention at least one  example of such music in your collection?  Talking dynamic range how about a Mahler Symphony or a Wagner Opera?
If  S 13 is all acoustic and unamplified,  my  sincere apologies  are offered here and now.

But again excuse me if I am  a bit impolite and blunt and controversial,  being CC , but if "Supersilent 13"   happens to  involve  electric guitars  in the mix,I may most likely  "recoil in horror" if I hear it.
I abhor that instrument.
To me amplified  instruments with such high inherent distortion levels reaching levels up  to 10-15 % as electric guitars can and often do, do not belong in my view of  HIFI .

Both of us seem to experience similar things by choosing another way to power our Chord dacs than the stock supplied one. And that is interesting.  But for me  there is at least one  VERY  important thing, where I agree 100 % with Rob, ie  to use unamplified acoustic instruments  as  THE reference point  in HIFI.

You mentioned Piano music which is an instrument like I said in my latest post I basically only need to stretch an arm out a bit to make  comparisons between stock power and battery power with my humble Qutest/Mscaler  to hear with a good recording that battery power sounds fuller bodied and closer to both my own piano and a Concert Grand as I know them pretty well, than via the supplied stock wallwart in my systems.
In my system the  stock wallwart has a  wee tendency to make piano sound a bit  more like a digital piano than a real one.
Not a big difference, but it is audible enough  even via my humble system and my non modded MF KW amp via my electrostatic speakers.

 If my suspicions hold any  ground ,to come onto somewhat  "equal ground" so to say, in our comparisons ,if you  play Rob´s own recent  test recording of unamplfied acoustic music recorded with simple Blumlein miking in a church ,do you also there hear "tiny things you never heard before"? Or how would you describe the differences you hear with that recording provided you can play the native 24/192 version NOT the flac "cause"  that flac streaming  version  left me with very mixed feelings  about its recording quality, while it was  still the only version I had access to.
Cheers CC


----------



## genefruit

Christer said:


> Interesting to read that you are now hearing "tiny things you never heard before" with your psu change. But please excuse my ignorance,but I have to ask, what exactly  is
> 
> Supersilent 13 ??
> 
> ...


A quick Google provided this link. https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/22459-13/amp/


----------



## ZappaMan

SteveHulk said:


> Yes I think the Farad is a more discernable upgrade.
> 
> It's the ability to reproduce very tiny sounds that amazes me.
> 
> ...


Stupid question, would the same result be achieved by just increasing the volume?


----------



## 801evan

ZappaMan said:


> Stupid question, would the same result be achieved by just increasing the volume?


It doesn't work that way. But you can observe how people who use speaker amps to drive headphones still use high gain coz they are fighting with the noise via volume and gain while they don't do anything to optimize the chain.


----------



## Christer (Jul 4, 2022)

genefruit said:


> genefruit said:
> 
> 
> > A quick Google provided this link. https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/22459-13/amp/


Thanks  I was just about to do a search myself, to see if I had jumped to any wrong conclusions or not.
OMG!   In that video you linked to, I did not hear any electric guitars that I could pick out from the massive electronica soundwall I heard .
But  definitely NOT my cup of Tea or anything I would  EVER use to evaluate  Highend  HIFI SQ ,or even listen to, nor a film I would ever watch . I have to admit that I did not even care enough to watch the whole video. PS updating my take on S13 a bit I managed to find their  label site and "S13.9", now  if that is the music Steve Hulk was referring to  in his post I failed to hear any signs of any acoustic instruments whatsoever on that track? It really seems  to me that we are  possibly lacking any kind  of 
" common ground" here. Cheers CC


----------



## genefruit

Christer said:


> Thanks  I was just about to do a search myself, to see if I had jumped to any wrong conclusions or not.
> OMG!   In that video you linked to, I did not hear any electric guitars that I could pick out from the massive electronica soundwall I heard .
> But  definitely NOT my cup of Tea or anything I would  EVER use to evaluate  Highend  HIFI SQ ,or even listen to, nor a film I would ever watch . I have to admit that I did not even care enough to watch the whole video. Cheers CC


I don't believe the video had any reference to the article, at least the video that was embedded in my version of the article.  Commonly used cross marketing/targeting technique.


----------



## alxw0w

801evan said:


> This is all correct and proving the lan cable is an antenna in itself and makes it worse as it creates a coupling. This is why WiFi is like 3x better than lan on my setup.


As I mentioned, these are only my guesses  I might be completely wrong.


----------



## 801evan

alxw0w said:


> As I mentioned, these are only my guesses  I might be completely wrong.


And I have confirmed wifi is best. 😁


----------



## SteveHulk

ZappaMan said:


> Stupid question, would the same result be achieved by just increasing the volume?


No. No more than if you were viewing a scene through frosted glass and you turned up the lighting.

If you want more detail in the scene you have to reduce the frosting on the glass.


----------



## Christer

genefruit said:


> I don't believe the video had any reference to the article, at least the video that was embedded in my version of the article.  Commonly used cross marketing/targeting technique.


Sorry, mea culpa I have updated my response having heard the track  " S13.9" on the label site now.  Cheers CC


----------



## SteveHulk

Christer said:


> Interesting to read that you are now hearing "tiny things you never heard before" with your psu change. But please excuse my ignorance,but I have to ask, what exactly  is
> 
> Supersilent 13 ??
> 
> ...


Supersilent 13 is a mixture of unamplified acoustic and electronic music. It is a highly dynamic recording.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> Was the Dave warmed up for at least 24 hours? It needs this for HP listening. Otherwise it's edgy, thin. Needs to be spdif in too.


I was switching them so no, and it was as optimized chain as you can imagine. And for me, after 2 years of direct Dave listening, it's clear that Dave's Hp out is...a 5/10 at best. Even with Meze Elites and 5k worth of power optimizations and SRC-DX and etc. 
   So I have an order placed placed for an OOR which just walks all over it with the Elites, not to mention the Susvaras (Not sure why they sound good to you). First step breaking out of the feedback loop lol, next step is A/B-ing Dave vs Lina with the OOR.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> (Not sure why they sound good to you).





adrianm said:


> I was switching them so no,


I rest my case.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> I rest my case.


On for 24 or 1000 hours, the Susvara are unlistenable out of Dave. They sound completely broken.


----------



## 801evan (Jul 4, 2022)

I rest my case again.



adrianm said:


> Yes, power improvements do the scale with Dave tremendously, but not all



You said it yourself on what the issue is.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> I rest my case again.
> 
> 
> 
> You said it yourself on what the issue is.


Like i said, i've had Dave + the power stuff for 2 years now.  The headphone amp still doesn't compare to a dedicated one, even with the Meze Elite. So let's agree to disagree. Dave's a great dac, but a terrible amp, and the pre isn't great either if you check Goldensound's measurements with the OOR.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> Like i said, i've had Dave + the power stuff for 2 years now.  The headphone amp still doesn't compare to a dedicated one, even with the Meze Elite. So let's agree to disagree. Dave's a great dac, but a terrible amp, and the pre isn't great either if you check Goldensound's measurements with the OOR.


Lol...goldensound uses a speaker amp to drive HPs. And his Holo May and Dave has sibilance on his 'sibilance test track', when I don't get sibilance out of the track on cheap Cambridge 200m, ifi zen sig one, Hugo 2 or Dave. He doesn't hear the difference in cables. His system is mid-fi at best.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> Lol...goldensound uses a speaker amp to drive HPs. And his Holo May and Dave has sibilance on his 'sibilance test track', when I don't get sibilance out of the track on cheap Cambridge 200m, ifi zen sig one, Hugo 2 or Dave. He doesn't hear the difference in cables. His system is mid-fi at best.


That may be so but measurements are measurements lol.


----------



## 801evan

Hard to believe  people who are admin and founders of the fb Holo Audio owners group and making content that dumps on other brands. 

The other admin and Holo owner bought a Dave, barely broke it in and sold it under 2 weeks to be used as marketing material...

Hardly credible. If you still wanna believe em... So be it


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> Hard to believe  people who are admin and founders of the fb Holo Audio owners group and making content that dumps on other brands.
> 
> The other admin and Holo owner bought a Dave, barely broke it in and sold it under 2 weeks to be used as marketing material...
> 
> Hardly credible. If you still wanna believe em... So be it


Well i know Golden likes his May stuff, but not sure what he has to do with this.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jul 4, 2022)

801evan has a point, system synergy is so important, i now bacon audio (not triode) tested all these power supplies and the farad was noticed as dark but that was in his one way setup. It gave a very one sided story of a test. I am at this moment experimenting alot with my system and just adding some bypass caps of 0,01uf destroyed the open sound and made it fatiquing and others find it opens it up. 

Not saying the one or the other is good or bad just saying you cant apply the same results on other setups. And ears. Plus the fact that dark is good, less rf noise. So if the sound is darker you can adjust other things in your system to add detail. He passed on that completely. Just switched a bunch of powersupplies in the same system it just dont workes like that. It can give an impression but one has to be carefully with that.


----------



## chesebert (Jul 4, 2022)

801evan said:


> Hard to believe  people who are admin and founders of the fb Holo Audio owners group and making content that dumps on other brands.
> 
> The other admin and Holo owner bought a Dave, barely broke it in and sold it under 2 weeks to be used as marketing material...
> 
> Hardly credible. If you still wanna believe em... So be it


@Sajid Amit  is this you? Looks like your May and your wallpaper.

But, why bring up Holo in a Chord discussion thread? Rob is a good guy a lot of people have met with and Chord has been around block; Jeff is a person that no one knows personally and there is no electronics company called Holo. Between the 2 I would pay more for less just for a peace of mind that I will be taken care of if anything is wrong with my stuff.


----------



## chesebert

adrianm said:


> Well i know Golden likes his May stuff, but not sure what he has to do with this.


I believe that was Sajid and not Golden.


----------



## adrianm

chesebert said:


> I believe that was Sajid and not Golden.


It would be said if it was either of them LOL. My point was that Golden doesn't have anything to do with this discussion, even though he does like Holo stuff.


----------



## zen87192

Yes!... Finally arrived!! But..I still need to wait for my AC Power Leads.. Grrr..😡


----------



## SteveHulk

zen87192 said:


> Yes!... Finally arrived!! But..I still need to wait for my AC Power Leads.. Grrr..😡


If I were you, nobody in the house would be able to boil a kettle right now... 😂


----------



## zen87192

SteveHulk said:


> If I were you, nobody in the house would be able to boil a kettle right now... 😂


🤣 I did also think about that but also my Son hit the roof when his PC lost power! But..... I darn't approach the subject of Special Mains Cables 😱


----------



## alxw0w (Jul 5, 2022)

zen87192 said:


> Yes!... Finally arrived!! But..I still need to wait for my AC Power Leads.. Grrr..😡


Do not wait just grab standard black PC cable and you are ready to go


----------



## Triode User

zen87192 said:


> Yes!... Finally arrived!! But..I still need to wait for my AC Power Leads.. Grrr..😡


A first world problem. Most of us have a box or drawer full of ‘kettle’ leads. Just reach in and away you go! I mostly use my Sean Jacobs power supplies with normal kettle leads!


----------



## zen87192

OK.... you all convinced me.... unfortunately all Kettle Leads are being actively used in the rooms so I'll have to go in to the loft tomorrow and locate my bag of 'shizzle' and grab a few.... if I can gain access without breaking my neck and then if I can actually find it 🙃


----------



## Somatic

zen87192 said:


> Yes!... Finally arrived!! But..I still need to wait for my AC Power Leads.. Grrr..😡


. So close yet so far. Which AC cables did you buy?


----------



## zen87192

Somatic said:


> . So close yet so far. Which AC cables did you buy?


Three of Farads own 1mtr UK Connector. They are now on their way to me via Priority Courier. Fingers crossed for a delivery before the weekend.


----------



## MvRBE10

Get some std leads and go for it. Also good to see when the other come what the change is. See it as a good  a b thing. And pull them out of those polluting computers and feed that dave some fresh farad dc 😎


----------



## MvRBE10

I am now also cnc’ing some silver dc dave inlets so if future buyers want it silver in the next batch it will be an option.


----------



## Somatic

MvRBE10 said:


> I am now also cnc’ing some silver dc dave inlets so if future buyers want it silver in the next batch it will be an option.


Oh damn. Hehe. Silver would be nice but I’m happy either way.


----------



## MvRBE10

Is yours already shipped? You can turn the glands out the alu plate and keep them on the wire and just take some wheelspray silver. Tape everything and give it a few sprays. Will be pretty nice as if you want it silver.


----------



## 801evan (Jul 5, 2022)

adrianm said:


> My point was that Golden doesn't have anything to do with this discussion, even though he does like Holo stuff.





adrianm said:


> Goldensound's measurements with the OOR.





adrianm said:


> That may be so but measurements are measurements lol.



You first brought up Golden and his measurements with the OOR, which implies comparing it to the measurements he had with the Dave as a form of argument that it correlates with your experience  when there is no correlation and I mentioned he is not credible.

I have the Hypsos and it's a very underwhelming psu that's hazy and not that clear nor black nor linear vs a much cheaper Ifi Elite. I have modded the Hypsos with silver internals and silver dc cable and while that helped it, it also made it more apparent how the Hypsos lacks the performance and bandwidth. It also can't handle load variation where it gets noisy and have poor blacks. To have that power the OOR...pass.

Now the OOR, just see the thread and everyone is doing high gain on the Susvara....which has higher distortion and weaker blacks. Many have said Susvara lacks bass and sub-bass on it.

Now back to my Dave setup, I get deep bass, deep blacks and really good sub bass extension. Zero distortion. Zero clipping. Zero edge or etch after 24 hours warm up. I have HF ON and crossfeed on + mqa and it's freaking magnificent. Just stock psu with line conditioner. 💪💪

For the amount you're gonna pay, just get the Farad stack or dc4.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> You first brought up Golden and his measurements with the OOR, which implies comparing it to the measurements he had with the Dave as a form of argument that it correlates with your experience  when there is no correlation and I mentioned he is not credible.
> 
> I have the Hypsos and it's a very underwhelming psu that's hazy and not that clear nor black nor linear vs a much cheaper Ifi Elite. I have modded the Hypsos with silver internals and silver dc cable and while that helped it, it also made it more apparent how the Hypsos lacks the performance and bandwidth. It also can't handle load variation where it gets noisy and have poor blacks. To have that power the OOR...pass.
> 
> ...


Well i'm clearly not going to change your mind with facts, but  Dave's HP out has *1% distortion (so clearly not zero)* vs 0.0004% on the Oor. As for the Hypsos, i liked it in combination with the Oor and wouldn't have bought the amp without it. Or without the xlr and power cables i used to test.
      I get it, *you* like direct Dave. I do too. I just find it lacking in several areas compared to any decent headphone amp. Tested the  Burson 3x GT as well. That had much poorer blacks than the OOR + Hypsos but still better than non filtered Dave. The filter/generator help You can put as many horses as you want in front of a carriage, you still won't make it a car.
      I've tested everything myself and I have no interest in the current flavor of the month. I know people enjoy messing around and any changes they can call improvements, but I've wasted enough time chasing the latest " Pro tips ".
       You need to accept that just because you like something, doesn't make it the absolute truth. Just like you say the Susvara/ Stealth are driven great by Dave and everyone disagrees. I was tentatively inclined to believe you before listening to them myself. Susvara sounded literally broken from Dave, and almost as bad with the OOR in SE. It was with 4x the power in balanced mode that they actually started to sound good. And I hated Susvara out of TT2 as well when i first listened to them.
      It has nothing to do with clipping or etc. There is just considerably better soundstage, 3d imaging, separation and dynamics from a better amp.
   If keeping the Dave on will overcome that, I'll gladly return the OOR  but i doubt it. Listening now after keeping it on for 24 hours, I don't detect any difference.


----------



## Somatic

Does Dave lose transparency with a power amp? I just went with more sensitive headphones Sol P and LCD5 out of direct Dave. 


adrianm said:


> Well i'm clearly not going to change your mind with facts, but  Dave's HP out has *1% distortion (so clearly not zero)* vs 0.0004% on the Oor. As for the Hypsos, i liked it in combination with the Oor and wouldn't have bought the amp without it. Or without the xlr and power cables i used to test.
> I get it, *you* like direct Dave. I do too. I just find it lacking in several areas compared to any decent headphone amp. Tested the  Burson 3x GT as well. That had much poorer blacks than the OOR + Hypsos but still better than non filtered Dave. The filter/generator help You can put as many horses as you want in front of a carriage, you still won't make it a car.
> I've tested everything myself and I have no interest in the current flavor of the month. I know people enjoy messing around and any changes they can call improvements, but I've wasted enough time chasing the latest " Pro tips ".
> You need to accept that just because you like something, doesn't make it the absolute truth. Just like you say the Susvara/ Stealth are driven great by Dave and everyone disagrees. I was tentatively inclined to believe you before listening to them myself. Susvara sounded literally broken from Dave, and almost as bad with the OOR in SE. It was with 4x the power in balanced mode that they actually started to sound good. And I hated Susvara out of TT2 as well when i first listened to them.
> ...


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> Does Dave lose transparency with a power amp? I just went with more sensitive headphones Sol P and LCD5 out of direct Dave.


It depends on the amp I guess, this is the reason why I avoided buying a separate amp until now. On a short audition, there's a lot to gain and nothing immediately apparent that was lost. I'll come back to you with impressions after my amp + cables arrive and I get more time with them. The improvements I've heard were consistent across HPA4, OOR and Burson 3x GT, with the very sensitive Elites scaling well with more power from the OOR in balanced mode. Subjectively, they each imparted a bit of their own character, but I feel like I'm getting 80% out of the Elites going direct Dave.
     I would audition an amp with some good cables (they matter) and decide for myself. Since the Elites benefit, I'm sure the LCD5 would , having almost bought them. Dave drove the Elites much better than the LCD5. Also using a Lavricables Grand btw.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> but the other modified psu clearly hadn't. It sounded better than my stock Dave on a high end speaker rig, but fell apart with direct headphone listening. It was much worse. Then again it was never tested for this during development.


If we were to observe your experience and of other's impressions in where they prefer external amp vs direct HP out, through inductive reasoning we can reasonably claim that the psu mod you speak of is still quite inadequate and is the cause of the seemingly poor performance of Dave's HP out and has nothing to do with the Dave.

The Dave sounded good on the speaker rig because the amplifier is using its own psu and not that of the Dave. The HP out of the Dave is using the psu of the Dave and hence why it sounds bad still.

Which means, the ability to have a good performance out of Dave's HP OUT is very possible, is very much adequate as Rob claims, and is a barometer of the whole chain. And if an external amp sounds better than the Dave HP OUT, it just means the psu of that amp is better and has nothing to do with 'headroom'.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> If we were to observe your experience and of other's impressions in where they prefer external amp vs direct HP out, through inductive reasoning we can reasonably claim that the psu mod you speak of is still quite inadequate and is the cause of the seemingly poor performance of Dave's HP out and has nothing to do with the Dave.
> 
> The Dave sounded good on the speaker rig because the amplifier is using its own psu and not that of the Dave.


Agreed so far.


801evan said:


> he HP out of the Dave is using the psu of the Dave and hence why it sounds bad still.
> 
> Which means, the ability to have a good performance out of Dave's HP OUT is very possible, is very much adequate as Rob claims, and is a barometer of the whole chain. And if an external amp sounds better than the Dave HP OUT, it just means the psu of that amp is better and has nothing to do with 'headroom'.


This is where our conclusions diverge. There's more to an amp than the PSU. The HPA4 was very transparent, but ultimately a very slight improvement over Dave in terms of dynamics and soundstage.
 The fact that the OOR sounds so much better using a balanced connection(8w into 60ohms) instead of single ended(2w into 60ohms) disproves that. The only difference is more power. I wouldn't have bought it based on the SE performance. Direct Dave was 90% there.


----------



## 801evan (Jul 5, 2022)

adrianm said:


> Agreed so far.
> 
> This is where our conclusions diverge. There's more to an amp than the PSU. The HPA4 was very transparent, but ultimately a very slight improvement over Dave in terms of dynamics and soundstage.
> The fact that the OOR sounds so much better using a balanced connection(8w into 60ohms) instead of single ended(2w into 60ohms) disproves that. The only difference is more power. I wouldn't have bought it based on the SE performance. Direct Dave was 90% there.


What's the brand of the rca vs xlr cables and conductor quality? And what are the brands of the plugs?

And you aren't going down a gain setting on xlr? And what gain setting is ur pref on xlr?


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> What's the brand of the rca vs xlr cables and conductor quality? And what are the brands of the plugs?


Used some QED XLR's which resulted in a clear loss of transparency, and some Crystal Cable Micro Diamond XLR cables, which were great. And I'm not a cable fan btw, but some clearly sound better, and the only way I liked the OOR was with these + a Crystal micro diamond power cable. Tried a printer cable initially and it made it sound like crap even out of my Aquarius's high current sockets (that's how i tested the oor+ hypsos).  Will audition a few others when the stuff gets here. 
     Headphone cables were different, but i compared using the upgraded silver plated Meze cable vs a cheaper custom copper cable, nothing too fancy. I ordered some Furutech plugs (mini xlr and xlr) and will modify my Lavricables Grand to use with the Elites and expect it to be an improvement over what i've previously heard.


----------



## chesebert

You all understand when Chord does their Dave/TT/mscaler demos for clients they use the dollar store cables, correct?


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> Used some QED XLR's which resulted in a clear loss of transparency, and some Crystal Cable Micro Diamond XLR cables, which were great. And I'm not a cable fan btw, but some clearly sound better, and the only way I liked the OOR was with these + a Crystal micro diamond power cable. Tried a printer cable initially and it made it sound like crap even out of my Aquarius's high current sockets (that's how i tested the oor+ hypsos).  Will audition a few others when the stuff gets here.
> Headphone cables were different, but i compared using the upgraded silver plated Meze cable vs a cheaper custom copper cable, nothing too fancy. I ordered some Furutech plugs (mini xlr and xlr) and will modify my Lavricables Grand to use with the Elites and expect it to be an improvement over what i've previously heard.


Hmm you didn't mention the rca cables but.... Different cable quality and plugs can shift that difference between SE vs balanced compared to SE being seemingly broken vs balanced. 




chesebert said:


> You all understand when Chord does their Dave/TT/mscaler demos for clients they use the dollar store cables, correct?


It's 2022. That may work when it was 2 yrs old and also why such approach is making other brands seemingly catch up.


----------



## chesebert

801evan said:


> Hmm you didn't mention the rca cables but.... Different cable quality and plugs can shift that difference between SE vs balanced compared to SE being seemingly broken vs balanced.
> 
> 
> 
> It's 2022. That may work when it was 2 yrs old and also why such approach is making other brands seemingly catch up.


Chord continues to demo their the gear the same way - yes even in 2022. I think they had better cables in prior years but this year they really put on their dollar store persona.


----------



## 801evan

chesebert said:


> Chord continues to demo their the gear the same way - yes even in 2022. I think they had better cables in prior years but this year they really put on their dollar store persona.


Well...ppl shouldn't wonder about my claims then since they are aware of my stance on the matter.


----------



## adrianm

chesebert said:


> You all understand when Chord does their Dave/TT/mscaler demos for clients they use the dollar store cables, correct?





chesebert said:


> Chord continues to demo their the gear the same way - yes even in 2022. I think they had better cables in prior years but this year they really put on their dollar store persona.


Clearly Chord is terrible at designing stuff since every part of Dave needs upgrading 

I do, and i tried to believe it for years, but they just don't sound the same to me  Some are better, some are worse, but they do sound different. Whether it's the plugs, the soldering, the unicorn tear infused cables, or just not adhering to standards .
     I know the high-school drop-outs turned internet evangelists at ASR like to yell "science" at everyone, but that's not how it works. And while i don't have the explanation, or interest in doing so,  @WaveTheory has put a lot of effort in a recent series which explains  some things a lot of "non zealots" had gut feelings about very well :




Now I'm not saying you should take anything as Gospel, but I've been saying for years what he's saying in the intro. Whether he's right or not, as someone who's lost way too much time testing what I've read here (both sides of the coin),  it's clear that it's a discussion worth having and extremist views on don't do anyone any favors.


----------



## kawhia

Hi all, a quick question. When Dave is in digital pre mode connected to my amp the volume is still adjustable. I thought volume would be non adjustable, then? Should I just crank up Dave to max and adjust volume via my amp? My amp is a Riviera AIC 10. thanks for your advice.


----------



## TheAttorney (Jul 5, 2022)

kawhia said:


> Hi all, a quick question. When Dave is in digital pre mode connected to my amp the volume is still adjustable. I thought volume would be non adjustable, then? Should I just crank up Dave to max and adjust volume via my amp? My amp is a Riviera AIC 10. thanks for your advice.


You need to go into DAC mode by simultaneously pressing left and right buttons (see manual). Yes it's a bit obscure.
This fixes the output at -3db. Leaving DAVE in preamp mode and setting the volume to -3db has the same affect, but you also have the option to adjust the output to better suit the external amp's input sensitivity.

EDIT: Best to try both DAVE and Riviera controlling the volume. One may sound better than the other. I find DAVE's volume control to be very transparent, but it's probably safer to use Riviera's to avoid switch-on thump kind of accidents.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jul 5, 2022)

kawhia said:


> Hi all, a quick question. When Dave is in digital pre mode connected to my amp the volume is still adjustable. I thought volume would be non adjustable, then? Should I just crank up Dave to max and adjust volume via my amp? My amp is a Riviera AIC 10. thanks for your advice.


By holding down together the right hand and left hand silver buttons on the top the DAVE will shift into "DAC mode"


----------



## number1sixerfan

adrianm said:


> Agreed so far.
> 
> This is where our conclusions diverge. There's more to an amp than the PSU. The HPA4 was very transparent, but ultimately a very slight improvement over Dave in terms of dynamics and soundstage.
> The fact that the OOR sounds so much better using a balanced connection(8w into 60ohms) instead of single ended(2w into 60ohms) disproves that. The only difference is more power. I wouldn't have bought it based on the SE performance. Direct Dave was 90% there.



Agree, there's ultimately more than power that matters, so a blanket statement that PSUs are the only reason other amplifiers best the Dave's headphone out is pretty ridiculous. But again, the OP here as always is focused on headroom and volume, which most do not care about--adequate volume is a base expectation and is practically irrelevant. People overwhelmingly care about maximizing sonic performance of their headphones, which seems to be the constant disconnect in this never-ending debate lol.


----------



## Triode User

SteveHulk said:


> By holding down together the right hand and left hand silver buttons on the top the DAVE will shift into "DAC mode"


and not forgetting of course that ‘DAC Mode’ is really nothing more or less than ‘Fixed Output Volume’. So if the Dac Mode volume does not suit one’s amp it is best to select Amp Mode and use the volume control to obtain a more appropriate output volume.


----------



## dusty.ro

adrianm said:


> Well i'm clearly not going to change your mind with facts, but  Dave's HP out has *1% distortion (so clearly not zero)* vs 0.0004% on the Oor. As for the Hypsos, i liked it in combination with the Oor and wouldn't have bought the amp without it. Or without the xlr and power cables i used to test.
> I get it, *you* like direct Dave. I do too. I just find it lacking in several areas compared to any decent headphone amp. Tested the  Burson 3x GT as well. That had much poorer blacks than the OOR + Hypsos but still better than non filtered Dave. The filter/generator help You can put as many horses as you want in front of a carriage, you still won't make it a car.
> I've tested everything myself and I have no interest in the current flavor of the month. I know people enjoy messing around and any changes they can call improvements, but I've wasted enough time chasing the latest " Pro tips ".
> You need to accept that just because you like something, doesn't make it the absolute truth. Just like you say the Susvara/ Stealth are driven great by Dave and everyone disagrees. I was tentatively inclined to believe you before listening to them myself. Susvara sounded literally broken from Dave, and almost as bad with the OOR in SE. It was with 4x the power in balanced mode that they actually started to sound good. And I hated Susvara out of TT2 as well when i first listened to them.
> ...


I share your opinion. Listening to the Susvara through Dave's HP output is a sub par experience. No bass at all. Driving the Susvara takes serious power, you can't joke around with 1.4 W. That number was ok in 2015 but not now. I've tried many amps that can drive the Susvara and the OOR + Hypsos is one of the best, up there with Enleum AMP-23R and Trafomatic Primavera.


----------



## kawhia

Thanks all. Will leave it in pre amp mode and play with both volume knobs. Sound is sublime by the way 🤩


----------



## zen87192

https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-m-scalar-review-upsampler.35498/


----------



## chesebert (Jul 5, 2022)

zen87192 said:


> https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-m-scalar-review-upsampler.35498/


I love the new panther with piggy bank. I don’t think ASR used it as intended so whatever.


----------



## Somatic

Seems he only did 2x upscaling. I’m sure he wants the product to fail his tests. Seems like he makes the tests to validate his assumptions. Either way, consensus seems that stock BNC cables can get noisy. Crazy how he saw the noise floor go up.


----------



## iDesign (Jul 5, 2022)

zen87192 said:


> https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-m-scalar-review-upsampler.35498/


As expected from Audio Science Review. I’d love to see Zune measurements.


----------



## jlbrach

zen87192 said:


> https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-m-scalar-review-upsampler.35498/


this site basically exists to use charts to tell you that all high priced audio equipment is snake oil and some 500 dollar unit is just as good....kind of boring to be honest...same thing all the time


----------



## 801evan (Jul 5, 2022)

Seeing that mscaler still sounds better than pre-rendered pggb and HQplayer files... It demonstrates the measurements has little correlation.


----------



## Triode User

zen87192 said:


> https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-m-scalar-review-upsampler.35498/


Oh dear, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry as  the ASR cult get into full swing again. He couldn’t hear any difference at 2x upsampling so why on earth didn’t he try 16x which is what everyone uses?


----------



## DJJEZ

zen87192 said:


> https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-m-scalar-review-upsampler.35498/


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 6, 2022)

I know Mscaler's output it not so 'pure' in technical terms.. as my AK120 wont accept it and my Questyle starts with a crackle when starting a song. Prob. caused by jitter who knows.

But I dont care i only use this with a notably
jitter immune Chord DAC.. i follow my ears.. and they get happy hearing it


----------



## Somatic

Cool. Seems like the Farad3 is due to arrive today or tomorrow. I ordered some cheap well rated 14awg power cords to use in the meantime. Good to compare before I get the customs ones. Also bought a grounding wrist and mat to use while doing Dave surgery to be safe. . 

So hopefully I mess around with it tomorrow. 

Any more info on the Farad3? @SteveHulk


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> Seeing that mscaler still sounds better than pre-rendered pggb and HQplayer files... It demonstrates the measurements has little correlation.


Have to disagree here, but to each his own. I do agree with him that the M-scaler is a mess in terms of noise and I'm much happier with src-dx+Hqp. Though in the long term, I could see myself going off up-sampling completely. The one PGGB file I have and listened to sounded much better than anything I've ever heard out of Dave ( M-scaler, or HQP) , but I don't have access to the original file, so I'll reserve judgement on it for now. It's too much hassle for me anyway.
    His testing methodology was manipulative as always, but the fact that the M-scaler increased the noise floor is a fair point, and one of the reasons I got rid of it. 
   Contrary to what ASR thinks , I do think those changes are perceivable, but contrary to what people here think, I don't think M-scaler is worth the tradeoff. I need to start my own forum it seems lol.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> Have to disagree here, but to each his own. I do agree with him that the M-scaler is a mess in terms of noise and I'm much happier with src-dx+Hqp. Though in the long term, I could see myself going off up-sampling completely. The one PGGB file I have and listened to sounded much better than anything I've ever heard out of Dave ( M-scaler, or HQP) , but I don't have access to the original file, so I'll reserve judgement on it for now. It's too much hassle for me anyway.
> His testing methodology was manipulative as always, but the fact that the M-scaler increased the noise floor is a fair point, and one of the reasons I got rid of it.
> Contrary to what ASR thinks , I do think those changes are perceivable, but contrary to what people here think, I don't think M-scaler is worth the tradeoff. I need to start my own forum it seems lol.


I can hear the noise on the HMS, but overall, it's still a better sound. PGGB and HQplayer files already has an unfair advantage by being pre-rendered and already processed and streaming off the Zen stream or my phone. On the zen stream, HQplayer and pggb sounds artificially wide and flat. Timbre is quite off which makes it a deal breaker. I tried 0dbfs, -1dbfs and -3dbfs and the recommended -3dbfs sounds the worse. So my comparisons stayed with 0dbfs. On the phone it's relatively better than mqa and 44.1. Which proves that distortion likes distortion and the only reason HQplayer and pggb can sound good is because of the weaker performance of the transport. I mean ....sure we see the Taiko server doing pggb but there's so many components going on in that thing. The elegance of a custom psu powering the Zen stream is a better way to judge it.


----------



## adrianm (Jul 6, 2022)

801evan said:


> I can hear the noise on the HMS, but overall, it's still a better sound. PGGB and HQplayer files already has an unfair advantage by being pre-rendered and already processed and streaming off the Zen stream or my phone. On the zen stream, HQplayer and pggb sounds artificially wide and flat. Timbre is quite off which makes it a deal breaker. I tried 0dbfs, -1dbfs and -3dbfs and the recommended -3dbfs sounds the worse. So my comparisons stayed with 0dbfs. On the phone it's relatively better than mqa and 44.1. Which proves that distortion likes distortion and the only reason HQplayer and pggb can sound good is because of the weaker performance of the transport. I mean ....sure we see the Taiko server doing pggb but there's so many components going on in that thing. The elegance of a custom psu powering the Zen stream is a better way to judge it.


Hqp does real time rendering as well. If you're using a USB connection, than you're hearing Dave's crappy USB controller and the reason you like M-scaler more is because dual BNC sounds much better. Been there, made that mistake. Once you add the SRC-DX, configure HQP correctly and you compare apples to apples, you'll find some filters are better, some are worse, and some are identical but without the added noise. Timbre is a problem with some of the filters, but the new Sync-LI filter is...identical to the M-scaler.
    AFAIK Zen stream can only output 384 though, so no dual bnc. Not sure about your phone.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> Hqp does real time rendering as well. If you're using a USB connection, than you're hearing Dave's crappy USB controller and the reason you like M-scaler more is because dual BNC sounds much better. Been there, made that mistake. Once you add the SRC-DX, configure HQP correctly and you compare apples to apples, you'll find some filters are better, some are worse, and some are identical but without the added noise. Timbre is a problem with some of the filters, but the new Sync-LI filter is...identical to the M-scaler.
> AFAIK Zen stream can only output 384 though, so no dual bnc. Not sure about your phone.


I've been using src-dx. HQP real time rendering is too taxing on the cpu and creates noise. That's why pre-rendered is better apples to apples.

Rank:
ZS- 384khz
Phone - 768khz
Phone - 384khz

ZS 384khz still sounds better than phone's 768 khz.


----------



## Ards

Triode User said:


> Oh dear, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry as  the ASR cult get into full swing again. He couldn’t hear any difference at 2x upsampling so why on earth didn’t he try 16x which is what everyone uses?


For me, that Amir couldn't hear any differences dissolves any remaining credibility he had.  Cult is the appropriate word here for ASR and it's adherents.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> I've been using src-dx. HQP real time rendering is too taxing on the cpu and creates noise. That's why pre-rendered is better apples to apples.
> 
> Rank:
> ZS- 384khz
> ...


What hqp server are you using? On my pc it barely goes over 1% cpu usage. Any differences between sources are most likely caused by noise.


----------



## griff500 (Jul 6, 2022)

adrianm said:


> Have to disagree here, but to each his own. I do agree with him that the M-scaler is a mess in terms of noise and I'm much happier with src-dx+Hqp. Though in the long term, I could see myself going off up-sampling completely. The one PGGB file I have and listened to sounded much better than anything I've ever heard out of Dave ( M-scaler, or HQP) , but I don't have access to the original file, so I'll reserve judgement on it for now. It's too much hassle for me anyway.
> His testing methodology was manipulative as always, but the fact that the M-scaler increased the noise floor is a fair point, and one of the reasons I got rid of it.
> Contrary to what ASR thinks , I do think those changes are perceivable, but contrary to what people here think, I don't think M-scaler is worth the tradeoff. I need to start my own forum it seems lol.


So he stuck a Topping on the end of it and tried it with 2x upsampling only and declared that it does nothing. What a great test. It's almost as if it is a test designed to produce a certain result.

Maybe he'll start reviewing sports cars by driving them to the supermarket and parking them.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> What hqp server are you using? On my pc it barely goes over 1% cpu usage. Any differences between sources are most likely caused by noise.


I use a NUC powered by LPS, win 2012 server + audio optimizer 3 + fidelizer pro + bios settings optimized for audio. Even with that setup, no filter sounds best. A simple CDT can best that setup by many fold. Zen stream simply confirms further with a pre-rendered file that HQplayer and pggb OS is not good.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> I use a NUC powered by LPS, win 2012 server + audio optimizer 3 + fidelizer pro + bios settings optimized for audio. Even with that setup, no filter sounds best. A simple CDT can best that setup by many fold. Zen stream simply confirms further with a pre-rendered file that HQplayer and pggb OS is not good.


Well I'm using my gaming pc running Hqp and Roon cores and clients because i can't be bothered with anything else. I'm with Jussi that different filters just sound different. And for the M-scaler sound...there's Sync-Li, which i couldn't A/B from the M-scaler. Hqp does come with frustrations and occasional static in some updates though, so I see it more of a temporary solution.
      If a Nuc + HQP OS will still have these issues, I might just move on to an up-sampling streamer or away from it entirely. I found that adding an external headphone amp fixed most of my gripes (soundstage and imaging) so I'll revisit the source stuff later. If you're judging all of these via a Susvara/Stealth directly from Dave...it might be this


801evan said:


> I tried 0dbfs, -1dbfs and -3dbfs and the recommended -3dbfs sounds the worse. So my comparisons stayed with 0dbfs. On the phone it's relatively better than mqa and 44.1. Which proves that distortion likes distortion and the only reason HQplayer and pggb can sound good is because of the weaker performance of the transport. I mean ....sure we see the Taiko server doing pggb but there's so many components going on in that thing. The elegance of a custom psu powering the Zen stream is a better way to judge it.


I'm sorry, What, you're all over the place. That would induce clipping and distortion.  What " performance " of the transport? There's just noise, since Dave is mostly jitter resistant. Don't get me started on Mqa and Taiko...


----------



## Somatic

adrianm said:


> Well I'm using my gaming pc running Hqp and Roon cores and clients because i can't be bothered with anything else. I'm with Jussi that different filters just sound different. And for the M-scaler sound...there's Sync-Li, which i couldn't A/B from the M-scaler. Hqp does come with frustrations and occasional static in some updates though, so I see it more of a temporary solution.
> If a Nuc + HQP OS will still have these issues, I might just move on to an up-sampling streamer or away from it entirely. I found that adding an external headphone amp fixed most of my gripes (soundstage and imaging) so I'll revisit the source stuff later. If you're judging all of these via a Susvara/Stealth directly from Dave...it might be this
> 
> I'm sorry, What, you're all over the place. That would induce clipping and distortion.  What " performance " of the transport? There's just noise, since Dave is mostly jitter resistant. Don't get me started on Mqa and Taiko...


Can we make a list of upscaler streamers? I’m curious on this as well.


----------



## alxw0w (Jul 6, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Can we make a list of upscaler streamers? I’m curious on this as well.


Grimm Mu1 - by many confirmed as being extremely good.


----------



## adrianm

alxw0w said:


> Grimm Mu1 - by many confirmed as being extremely good.





Somatic said:


> Can we make a list of upscaler streamers? I’m curious on this as well.


And extremely expensive  I recently found out that Lumin's streamers also do upsampling. I guess that's where the "house sound" and perceived streamer performance comes from. I'm keeping an eye out for the new Lumin U2 mini.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> Well I'm using my gaming pc


I rest my case....


----------



## adrianm (Jul 6, 2022)

801evan said:


> I rest my case....


Had a streamer, sold it. Streamer + M-scaler sounded a lot worse than gaming pc + Hqp. So I'm fine until i find a replacement streamer that works with NAA. I'm also willing to bet half the things you think matter are self induced, as a lot of them have been proved otherwise. How can you do DSP without adjusting for headroom and say it sounds better? It literally distorts.


----------



## alxw0w

adrianm said:


> And extremely expensive  I recently found out that Lumin's streamers also do upsampling. I guess that's where the "house sound" and perceived streamer performance comes from. I'm keeping an eye out for the new Lumin U2 mini.


Let me be even bolder with guessing 
I'm guessing many many tweaks that we do for our equipment is just modulation (amount, frequency etc...) of freakin noise getting into electronics and just mixing things up.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> Had a streamer, sold it. Streamer + M-scaler sounded a lot worse than gaming pc + Hqp. So I'm fine until i find a replacement streamer that works with NAA. I'm also willing to bet half the things you think matter are self induced.


Which streamer was it? And you haven't mentioned rca cable brand you used to compare with the xlr on the OOR.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> Which streamer was it? And you haven't mentioned rca cable brand you used to compare with the xlr on the OOR.


Moon Mind 2. Not sure What RCA you mean. I went straight for XLR, comparing 2 different XLR cables


----------



## flyte3333

griff500 said:


> So he stuck a Topping on the end of it and tried it with 2x upsampling only and declared that it does nothing. What a great test. It's almost as if it is a test designed to produce a certain result.


That Topping measured better than Qutest though?

Lower noise and distortion measurements?

APx555 measurements

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ew-and-measurements-of-chord-qutest-dac.5981/


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> Moon Mind 2. Not sure What RCA you mean. I went straight for XLR, comparing 2 different XLR cables


Ah I thought you meant IC connection. Realized you meant HP out SE vs XLR. That gain has nothing to do with more power on balanced but just difference architecture.

Good to know I don't have to be curious in the Moon Mind 2. Again, most streamers aren't good. Zen stream setup is a gift and of being lucky to have such a product out with dc power and ability to use custom psus. Even the Aurender w20 (15k usd -ish) pales in comparison to the zen stream.


----------



## griff500

flyte3333 said:


> That Topping measured better than Qutest though?
> 
> Lower noise and distortion measurements?
> 
> ...


It's well-established that if it measures well for a specific set of tests then it's going to sound good...

And he still only tried the lowest upsampling setting and declared that it makes zero difference based on that.

Probably some expectation bias at play and a test designed to produce a certain result.


----------



## adrianm

flyte3333 said:


> That Topping measured better than Qutest though?
> 
> Lower noise and distortion measurements?
> 
> ...


That's not the relevant part of the measurements, due to the pulse array architecture of Chord dacs they have much better jitter rejection, the Topping does not. And that's where the manipulation part comes in. At least one of the M-scaler's "weaknesses" is mitigated by the design of the intended dac pairings.


----------



## flyte3333

griff500 said:


> It's well-established that if it measures well for a specific set of tests then it's going to sound good...
> 
> And he still only tried the lowest upsampling setting and declared that it makes zero difference based on that.
> 
> Probably some expectation bias at play and a test designed to produce a certain result.



But there's also measurement with Hugo2 (dual coax, 1M taps) ? 



adrianm said:


> That's not the relevant part of the measurements, due to the pulse array architecture of Chord dacs they have much better jitter rejection, the Topping does not.



Chord DACs aren't the only DACs that have state of the art jitter measurements with APx555

Look at this cheap one - balanced output too. Great for ground loop hum issues.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-do100-review-stereo-dac.34198/


----------



## adrianm

flyte3333 said:


> but there's also measurement with Hugo2 (dual coax, 1M taps) ?


Where he acknowledges there are no issues.  "Just like Is it nice to have a sharper filter? Sure. But I sure as heck wouldn't pay nearly $6,000 to get that." That's the whole point of the M-scaler and Chord's competitive advantage in general.


flyte3333 said:


> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-do100-review-stereo-dac.34198/


A lot of well measuring stuff sounds bad. I'm not saying this is the case, but there's more to it than some cherry picked measurements.  What's wrong with people voting with their wallets?
    If the SMSL and Topping stuff Amir is pushing is that great, I'm sure we'll all sell our stuff and get it. But not because he says so, as he has little credibility with folks who have actually heard hi-fi, and don't just comment based on reviews. I do find the hate coming from ASR entertaining though.


----------



## griff500 (Jul 6, 2022)

flyte3333 said:


> But there's also measurement with Hugo2 (dual coax, 1M taps) ?


I didn't notice that (I tend to find my eyes glassing over when I see charts). So he measured it but didn't want to listen to it and decided to make his conclusion based on listening only to 2x upsampling.


----------



## Somatic

adrianm said:


> And extremely expensive  I recently found out that Lumin's streamers also do upsampling. I guess that's where the "house sound" and perceived streamer performance comes from. I'm keeping an eye out for the new Lumin U2 mini.


Do all Lumin streamers do upsampling? Any info on how they do it etc?


----------



## Reactcore

griff500 said:


> I didn't notice that (I tend to find my eyes glassing over when I see charts).


He quickly putted it aside after he didnt got his expected negative jitter results 😂


----------



## Somatic

801evan said:


> Ah I thought you meant IC connection. Realized you meant HP out SE vs XLR. That gain has nothing to do with more power on balanced but just difference architecture.
> 
> Good to know I don't have to be curious in the Moon Mind 2. Again, most streamers aren't good. Zen stream setup is a gift and of being lucky to have such a product out with dc power and ability to use custom psus. Even the Aurender w20 (15k usd -ish) pales in comparison to the zen stream.


Do you use the spidif out?


----------



## adrianm (Jul 6, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Do all Lumin streamers do upsampling? Any info on how they do it etc?


I think they do, but  they're pretty vague about it, and i doubt it's anything groundbreaking.


801evan said:


> Good to know I don't have to be curious in the Moon Mind 2. Again, most streamers aren't good. Zen stream setup is a gift and of being lucky to have such a product out with dc power and ability to use custom psus. Even the Aurender w20 (15k usd -ish) pales in comparison to the zen stream.


I sold it because it didn't have usb, not because it wasn't an improvement over my pc. That improvement however + M-scaler wasn't better as good pc+ hqp to me. I'll audition the Zen stream, but 384 khz is kind of a bummer. And i don't expect it to be better than the pc honestly, but we'll see.


----------



## genefruit

adrianm said:


> I sold it because it didn't have usb, not because it wasn't an improvement over my pc. That improvement however + M-scaler wasn't better as good pc+ hqp to me. I'll audition the Zen stream, but 384 khz is kind of a bummer. And i don't expect it to be better than the pc honestly, but we'll see.


New one is coming from iFi and it'll handle 768 - https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi...-a-higher-plane.958391/page-288#post-17036156


----------



## adrianm (Jul 6, 2022)

genefruit said:


> New one is coming from iFi and it'll handle 768 - https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi...-a-higher-plane.958391/page-288#post-17036156


Nice, where is that confirmed though?
Edit: found the manual.


----------



## SteveHulk

Just some updates on the Farad supplies for the DAVE.

I continue to hear new and surprising details in music that I thought I knew very well already.

The abruptness with which music can stop dead and restart is still startling me at times. It takes a special something to be surprised in such a way by music that is already very well-known. 

I have listened to excellent piano recordings. The DAVE has been commended by other reviewers as a device that "just does piano" which is already high praise. I can confirm that is all still there combined with amazing dynamic range. Messiaen "Vingt Regards sur l'Enfant-Jésus" (Steven Osborne Hyperion 44.1kHz/20bit) is just awesome in terms of tone, depth, and sheer transient attack.

At another end of the music spectrum, you just have to hear Linkin Park on this rig. It's enough to melt your brain. Again, massive dynamic range. Linkin Park is loud, but it is effortlessly delivered and not at all fatiguing despite being metal/rap fusion.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jul 6, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> Just some updates on the Farad supplies for the DAVE.
> 
> I continue to hear new and surprising details in music that I thought I knew very well already.
> 
> ...


Try ‘bert van den brink’ god only knows (live)

Its on qobuz.

Flabbergasting dynamics and feeling of seeing a piano played. I also feel that womens voices somehow now are exeptional loose and open. Dont now how but it all seems bizarr live last few weeks, getting frission all the time.


----------



## 801evan

Somatic said:


> Do you use the spidif out?


Zen stream, I use the USB out but with a very long USB chain and 3 expensive psus.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jul 6, 2022)

At -150dB or so, the noise floor on the DAVE has been described as "a stunning technical achievement by Chord" but Rob Watts has, I believe, already been talking about noise reductions to -200dB or even less.

Can this be achieved without looking hard beyond FPGA code and also considering power supplies and clock synchronisation?

I know that the DAVE performs exceptionally at jitter rejection but isn't there even more mileage to be had with clock synchronisation between the digital devices to reduce jitter before it even happens? I'm a believer in prevention rather than cure. It is better to prevent an evil (such as rf noise) from arriving rather than letting more of it arrive than is necessary and then having to deal with it when it has already arrived.

I just remember auditioning the dCS Verona, the 44.1kHz stable clock that went with the Verdi, Purcell, and Elgar stack to force all the devices into synchronisation with each other. 

A cd of a piece of choral music recorded in a large venue went into the Verdi.

My housemate, who is a concert-standard oboist, thought that this was an excellent recording both from the performance and recording values points of view.

Prior to the music itself starting, there were a few seconds where just the silence in the venue was being recorded.

Before the music itself even started I already knew I was going to keep the Verona.

It was as if the ambient of the venue came alive in my room. The space in my room just opened out in front of me. I felt almost that if I fell forward from my chair then I would topple into this abyss that had been brought into existence before me.

Totally unexpected and a clear lesson in the absolute value of jitter reduction. 

I handed over my credit card and the Verona never left the system again.


----------



## ra990 (Jul 6, 2022)

801evan said:


> I've been using src-dx. HQP real time rendering is too taxing on the cpu and creates noise. That's why pre-rendered is better apples to apples.
> 
> Rank:
> ZS- 384khz
> ...


No its not, unless you are up scaling to DSD. I run full 768k 2 million tap up scaling with a really high order noise shaping on my 7+ year old intel nuc, it barely touches 25% of the cpu. Also, there are some 30 filters and noise shapers that are configurable, so you cannot make a blanket statement about how it sounds.


----------



## adrianm

ra990 said:


> No its not, unless you are up scaling to DSD. I run full 768k 2 million tap up scaling with a really high order noise shaping on my 7+ year old intel nuc, it barely touches 25% of the cpu. Also, there are some 30 filters and noise shapers that are configurable, so you cannot make a blanket statement about how it sounds.


The LNS15 noise shaper is the reason I ditched the M-scaler


----------



## chesebert

SteveHulk said:


> At -150dB or so, the noise floor on the DAVE has been described as "a stunning technical achievement by Chord" but Rob Watts has, I believe, already been talking about noise reductions to -200dB or even less.
> 
> Can this be achieved without looking hard beyond FPGA code and also considering power supplies and clock synchronisation?
> 
> ...


Is Dave really worth over 2x the dCS Verdi full stack, which can be found for $5kish these days (possibly less if you search around)?


----------



## Christer (Jul 7, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> Just some updates on the Farad supplies for the DAVE.
> 
> I continue to hear new and surprising details in music that I thought I knew very well already.
> 
> ...


Hello Steve,  that  first example you mention is both from a label, and a composer, and a pianist I can relate to. Even if this was not to please an old  Classical Music nerd  like me, thanks anyway.
I do not have that particular recording but,  finally we hit some common ground. ie Piano. Good.

 I just happened to play another imho good Hyperion recording via Qutest /HMS and Qutest on battery power before  reading your post and although it was a Piano Concerto , Brahms´1st played not by Steven  Osborne, but Stephen Hough, it had most of the things I really like about most  Hyperion recordings.

A nice WET very ambient NOT at all overly spotmiked piano or orchestra .But both sounding much as one would have heard them live in the Mozartteum Hall Salzburg which I know pretty well from many live concerts there.
Hyperion is generally upholding good recording standards imho.
As far as Salzburg is concerned I have spent quite a few summers in Salzburg too, and not only along the often wet, foggy and windy , British South Coast  and I /we often went to the Mozarteum.
 My  summer workplace there ,"Das Mädchen Gymnasium" was only a short walk from the Mozartteum. And we sometimes took our students to  "budding star" pianists  Diplomkonzerte there.
 Nice change from classroom teaching.
 Salzburg is a wonderful city, although Mozart himself hated it. Mainly had to do with Priesthood in general, and a very particular  Archbishop in his case .
Mozart was most probably not at all  as devout a Catholic as Messiaen was. He wrote some religious music yes, but no" 20 looks on Jesus" .

Unfortunately Salzburg is not only famous for Mozart and Classical Music in general. But for its weather too.
Those  here who speak German may have heard about
"Salzburger Schnürlregen".
Sorry about my reminishing a bit much  there.

Back on topic  again,sorry but you completely lost me again when you quoted "rap and metal"
 I´ll say no more, nudge nudge, know what I mean?

Anyway, have you also considered comparing Dave/Farad with your dCs  via the 801D? That could be an interesting comparison  to do now.
 Even my humble Qutest /HMS lets me at least "begin to hear the walls" as Rob  so wonderfully  put it.
 And I know for sure even a stock Dave does so much better.  One of my biggest surprises with 16/44.1 was via Dave /BLU2. I had never before heard such a clearly  defined acoustic hall signature via cd as with Mscaling added to Dave. It was an absolute  "Earopener" for me.
 A Wow moment.
One final thought , I noticed that you are using an LCD 4 with your Dave.  Not a bad headphone , but personally I found that headphone sounding to coloured in the midbass and midrange for my  rather "purist"  all acoustic and  classical music tastes.
 As an alternative maybe?Have you auditioned the DC Stealth that Rob raves about?
That headphone is definitely on my list of headphones to try.
 And Audeze has got a new LCD 5 that I expect and hope is "better" than the LCD4 was to me, as well.
Cheers CC


----------



## 801evan

SteveHulk said:


> I know that the DAVE performs exceptionally at jitter rejection but isn't there even more mileage to be had with clock synchronisation between the digital devices to reduce jitter before it even happens? I'm a believer in prevention rather than cure.


Clock synchronization not necessary. I had a CDT and pro iDSD synced with a 44.1 ocxo clock and it was one of the best I've heard at that time. Then I have heard much better just with power upgrades on lesser DACs and without ocxo later on.


----------



## SteveHulk

If DC produces an open back version of the Stealth I would be minded to give it a try.


----------



## Slim1970

DJJEZ said:


>


Love it 😂🤣


----------



## 801evan

ra990 said:


> No its not, unless you are up scaling to DSD. I run full 768k 2 million tap up scaling with a really high order noise shaping on my 7+ year old intel nuc, it barely touches 25% of the cpu. Also, there are some 30 filters and noise shapers that are configurable, so you cannot make a blanket statement about how it sounds.


I rest my case....

Basically the better the transport, the sooner people will learn they don't need HQplayer or PGGB. That's the short of it. Already a few people I know have experienced this with their system.


----------



## 801evan

SteveHulk said:


> If DC produces an open back version of the Stealth I would be minded to give it a try.


Open back might introduce too much entropy so it seems not to be possible so far.


----------



## ra990

801evan said:


> I rest my case....
> 
> Basically the better the transport, the sooner people will learn they don't need HQplayer or PGGB. That's the short of it. Already a few people I know have experienced this with their system.


?? You said it is very CPU intensive. It's clearly not. You seem to have an aversion to ever admitting you are wrong about anything.


----------



## 801evan

ra990 said:


> ?? You said it is very CPU intensive. It's clearly not. You seem to have an aversion to ever admitting you are wrong about anything.


Please read some other forum material on it where there's a clear sign 25% CPU usage is already considered too taxing.


----------



## LucyWu

PGGB all the way for me. You have to go all the way to 16fs which makes the files ungainly. I sold my MScaler and gave up my Qobuz subscription when I started testing PGGB.

There's no comparison. Dave and PGGB is sonic bliss.


----------



## ra990

801evan said:


> Please read some other forum material on it where there's a clear sign 25% CPU usage is already considered too taxing.


25% absolute max peak usage, with a convolution filter, on a 2 core CPU that is about 10 years old is considered too taxing for you. Ok buddy...

BTW, it takes less than 1%, barely a blip on my new gaming computer with an i9.


----------



## paradoxper

chesebert said:


> Is Dave really worth over 2x the dCS Verdi full stack, which can be found for $5kish these days (possibly less if you search around)?


Please you've heard DAVE, it's very poor especially in company of BAD, dCS, MSB, Linn, etc.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> Please read some other forum material on it where there's a clear sign 25% CPU usage is already considered too taxing.






12700k, peak usage like 8% with other stuff in background .  

     No offense, but you might be spending too much time on forums. You seem to believe a lot of stuff that is demonstrably false. Goldensound measurements are rigged, MQA sounds good (he also proved it's lossy, which anyone can hear). You seem to believe everything Rob says on certain topics (NOT MQA) : Dave can drive any headphones, M-scaler is some grail, streamers are magic, etc. 
   I won't waste any more time contradicting you, but I also believed a lot of this stuff for years, until I tested everything myself. Dave's the best dac i've heard, but not a member of the cult of Chord anymore.


----------



## Rob Watts

paradoxper said:


> Please you've heard DAVE, it's very poor especially in company of BAD, dCS, MSB, Linn, etc.


Yes it's poor as compared to those brands as it doesn't add distortion or colouration. You just get closer to veritas, in extremis...


----------



## chesebert (Jul 6, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> Please you've heard DAVE, it's very poor especially in company of BAD, dCS, MSB, Linn, etc.


I honest don’t know. Those dCS gear are 20yrs old. I probably also add in Wadia, ML and Sonic Frontier if I have to go back that far.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> , but you might be spending too much time on forums. You seem to believe a lot of stuff that is demonstrably false. Goldensound measurements are rigged, MQA sounds good (he also proved it's lossy, which anyone can hear). You seem to believe everything Rob says on certain topics (NOT MQA) : Dave can drive any headphones, M-scaler is some grail, streamers are magic, etc.


Oh the irony. Coz my sentiments is built around not reading the forums...hence why I have opinions that upsets many ppl following golden sound and spawns from mqa is vaporware.


----------



## ra990 (Jul 6, 2022)

801evan said:


> Oh the irony. Coz my sentiments is built around not reading the forums...hence why I have opinions that upsets many ppl following golden sound and spawns from mqa is vaporware.


What upsets people is your absolute stance on your beliefs being the only correct ones. You never offer anything other than that's what you hear and you have been gifted with golden ears that we should all trust more than our own. Show me one post on this forum where some other member has changed your mind about anything, where you have admitted to being wrong about anything, or where you concede an argument. Yet, you go around posting expecting everyone to believe you as if you are writing gospel.


----------



## 801evan (Jul 6, 2022)

adrianm said:


> 12700k, peak usage like 8% with other stuff in background .
> 
> No offense, but you might be spending too much time on forums. You seem to believe a lot of stuff that is demonstrably false. Goldensound measurements are rigged, MQA sounds good (he also proved it's lossy, which anyone can hear). You seem to believe everything Rob says on certain topics (NOT MQA) : Dave can drive any headphones, M-scaler is some grail, streamers are magic, etc.
> I won't waste any more time contradicting you, but I also believed a lot of this stuff for years, until I tested everything myself. Dave's the best dac i've heard, but not a member of the cult of Chord anymore.




Asserting your point about HQplayer + OS sounding better is only asserting it sounding better on an unoptimized PC. Which I will agree and concur. Get your Windows processes down to 13 and let's talk. Even the SQ from 17 to 13 processes have a significant SQ delta.

Technically only 12 processes after I shut down task manager...😉


----------



## paradoxper

chesebert said:


> I honest don’t know. Those dCS gear are 20yrs old. I probably also add in Wadia, ML and Sonic Frontier if I have to go back that far.


Sonic Frontiers is a great example. You'd be a fool to dump into the Chord etho with the alternative choice. If DAVE was $5k the divide would be far different.


----------



## Reactcore

Rob Watts said:


> Yes it's poor as compared to those brands as it doesn't add distortion or colouration. You just get closer to veritas, in extremis...



Too bad mostly theres still a distortion giving mixing desk with line amps, attenuators or even a extra adc-dac stage in between the mic's and this transparent gate ..

It changed my way of listening


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> Asserting your point about HQplayer + OS sounding better is only asserting it sounding better on an unoptimized PC. Which I will agree and concur. Get your Windows processes down to 13 and let's talk. Even the SQ from 17 to 13 processes have a significant SQ delta.
> 
> Technically only 12 processes after I shut down task manager...😉


So you think me shutting down a few processes will make my 20 core 3080 ti 1000w psu gaming pc quieter? What made a big difference, was plugging it into the power conditioner. Besides clean power and jitter, I haven't seen any streaming fairies making a difference. Fun fact, getting a 200$ gaming motherboard with the latest Realtek drivers + a platinum  1000w Corsair PSU improved the sound as well over my  5 old gaming pc. 
    Good streamers are just pc's with clean power and good clocks. The fact that they can be over-engineered for ridiculous prices, and might result in even more of an improvement is fine by me, but of no interest.
    If you want to go into more detail as to why the number of processes would matter, feel free. But blanket statements like this without any basis in reality are exactly what @ra990 's was talking about.


----------



## adrianm

paradoxper said:


> Sonic Frontiers is a great example. You'd be a fool to dump into the Chord etho with the alternative choice. If DAVE was $5k the divide would be far different.


Wth is Reference X/3? Enlighten us


----------



## paradoxper

adrianm said:


> Wth is Reference X/3? Enlighten us


The X is a music server the reference 3 is the reference DAC by Berkeley Audio Design.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> But blanket statements like this without any basis in reality are exactly what @ra990 's was talking about.





adrianm said:


> I get it, *you* like direct Dave. I do too. I just find it lacking in several areas compared to any decent headphone amp



Well proof in the pudding is you complaining about Dave's 'poor HP out' while I think it's ace. We're talking about the same dac and HP so logically it means it's the other stuff in the chain that's contributing to a better sound from Dave's HP out.


----------



## jlbrach

actually the dave HP out is IMHO excellent given efficient HP's


----------



## 801evan

Yes. And for Susvara to sound better than any efficient headphone off the Dave is proof enough.  💪💪💪💪


----------



## jlbrach

look, you like the susvara with the dave...good for you already...99% of the rest here do not...now can you move on


----------



## JamieMcC

The direction of topic reminds me of a absolutely scathingly review must be something like 10 years ago of the Beyerdynanic T1.  

It turned out the reviewer was listening to MP3 files with the T1 plugged into a first gen iPhone.


----------



## griff500

JamieMcC said:


> The direction of topic reminds me of a absolutely scathingly review must be something like 10 years ago of the Beyerdynanic T1.
> 
> It turned out the reviewer was listening to MP3 files with the T1 plugged into a first gen iPhone.


Wow. That's like testing an M-Scaler using one cable into a Topping.


----------



## 801evan

Or Dave barely broken in in less than 2 weeks, on usb where one knows its a highly detailed dac then paired it with fast and brighter than neutral electrostats and says 'eh'.

Or barely warming up Dave and saying HP out suxx.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> Well proof in the pudding is you complaining about Dave's 'poor HP out' while I think it's ace. We're talking about the same dac and HP so logically it means it's the other stuff in the chain that's contributing to a better sound from Dave's HP out.


Your reasoning is overly simplistic and as been proven wrong over and over. The easier explanation is that you haven't actually heard what we are discussing.  You seem to like going around in circles, but I don't have the time or the patience, as amusing as it is to see someone so wrong being so adamant about his views. 
    Maybe actually listen to some headphone amps , stop inducing distortion via HQP, learn how to actually use it before judging it, and then re-evaluate. It's funny that Rob sad other companies are adding distortion, and Dave is the absolute truth, yet here you are, objectively using headphones and software wrong just to get the sound you want out of it.
    I mean my god, Dan Clark himself said he wouldn't use his Stealth with the Dave but you clearly know better


----------



## Christer (Jul 7, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> If DC produces an open back version of the Stealth I would be minded to give it a try.


I am also a bit worried that it may sound too "closed in and not expansive enough. But that will not stop me from auditioning it.
I was not overly impressed by Dan Clark´s earlier closed back headphones, but I quite liked his open back electrostatic ones when I met him in Singapore a few years ago at Canjam. Cheers CC


----------



## Jawed

burbster said:


> that post was interesting, but the complete opposite to my own experience. Without fail, the cheap plastic ‘free’ type toslink cable always supported 192 on my Dave, and hms with no issues, rock solid. Where as my aq diamond and qed reference, both glass, precision polished etc, would only ever support 96. I have a background in fibre optics but I am struggling to explain why the ‘superior’ cables behaved like this.


It seems that the optical transmitter is the source of problems:






this is what it should look like:





Both images are made from the far end of a Sysconcept optical fibre. You can see the individual fibres bundled together to make the overall fibre 

So when you have data rate problems it's probably because the effective "power" of the transmitter is misaligned, so a lot of the light is not even entering the fibre. The Sysconcept cable exacerbates the problem with its multiple-strands, as each strand must be provided with correctly aligned light by the transmitter.

So in a scenario such as this, 192KHz is fine with a cheap optical cable (6m), but "impossible" with the Sysconcept (1m).


----------



## Jawed

801evan said:


> With that said, I didn't have the HMS 1.5ft away from the Dave. I had it on a second shelf just above and offset from the Dave (so not directly above)


Terrible mistake to make.


----------



## Somatic

Jawed said:


> It seems that the optical transmitter is the source of problems:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes my Sysconcept did not support 24/192 into Dave. :/


----------



## 801evan

Jawed said:


> The Sysconcept cable exacerbates the problem with its multiple-strands, as each strand must be provided with correctly aligned light by the transmitter.


I don't have issues with Sysconcept, even with 192khz. The photos on the first is just the bend is too strong on one of the ends. To lessen the issue it to just lessen the bend radius..


----------



## dusty.ro (Jul 7, 2022)

I got a few questions for you guys:
1. How much time does it take to burn in the Dave? I got some info that it takes about 150 to 200 hours. Is that true? I sent the review unit back and got the new one I ordered and It doesn't sound like the review unit yet.
2. What is the best input to use with the Dave? I've tried USB, AES and BNC so far (Siltech Classic Legend and Charlin Star). I think BNC sounds best so far. Any recommendations for BNC cables? I have a Matrix SPDIF-X DDC but it does not have a BNC out but I can use a BNC to RCA adapter. Have you guys tried this and have you noticed a degradation in sq because of the adapter?
3. Besides the M Scaler, is there any other DDC that outputs BNC or dual BNC?

Thanks.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jul 7, 2022)

After a week constantly on i could not hear a difference anymore. And it is minute between new and a few weeks. I now use optical in gives me a slight more neutral sound than bnc. Before i had the twin wave cables but that is no compare because mscaler was in between. 

So in a nutshell a few days and optical for me.


----------



## 801evan

MvRBE10 said:


> After a week constantly on i could not hear a difference anymore. And it is minute between new and a few weeks. I now use optical in gives me a slight more neuturale sound than bnc. Before i had the twin wave cabkes but that is no compare. So in a nutshell a few days and optical for me.


I don't remember your back story on this but....the toslink input port of DACs needs 5  days to break in at least so that may be why.


----------



## MvRBE10

Well no because back than i used the twin bnc input via de scaler. Please dont correct people all the time, seems its a certain inner impuls you have to answer on anything almost autistic tendensies i reconize in from other occupation. Please stop.


----------



## Jawed

801evan said:


> I don't have issues with Sysconcept, even with 192khz. The photos on the first is just the bend is too strong on one of the ends. To lessen the issue it to just lessen the bend radius..


The cable was straight for both pictures.

Anyway, the problem is with the source component that's transmitting the optical signal. I'm not suggesting that the Sysconcept design won't work at 192KHz, merely that when it fails it's probably the source component that caused the failure.


----------



## Somatic

Hmmm, so its either my PCIE sound card or my Dave but with sysConcept, Lifatech and Monoprice I am unable to get 24/192 to work. Even 24/96 is not working 100%. My Optical 2 slot works but my Optical slot 1 on Dave is faulty. Other than getting it repaired by Chord. What would be a good alternative?

SRC DX with dual BNC? Thanks.


----------



## Reactcore

Its a longshot.. but try a vacuum cleaner on it.. could be dust builtup inside..


----------



## 801evan

Jawed said:


> The cable was straight for both pictures.
> 
> Anyway, the problem is with the source component that's transmitting the optical signal. I'm not suggesting that the Sysconcept design won't work at 192KHz, merely that when it fails it's probably the source component that caused the failure.


Right. The two cases where I had that issue as posted in the photos is, bend radius issue and poor lock issue from source coz of wear on the plastic head which affected the accurate distance from the emitter to the fiber.


----------



## 801evan

MvRBE10 said:


> Well no because back than i used the twin bnc input via de scaler. Please dont correct people all the time, seems its a certain inner impuls you have to answer on anything almost autistic tendensies i reconize in from other occupation. Please stop.


1. I didn't realize it was answering a question just from a page before.

2. I thought it was a post on how now optical sounded better for you now while bnc sounded better before. That's why I mentioned I don't recall your back story on this but mentioned to support your claim that toslink I/O needs 5 days break in. Then you mentioned the HMS thing and I would agree to that too.

3. this is the second time you calling me autistic. The first time was my post on FB sharing about how Susvara sounds great on the Hugo2  with no clipping and distortion on a track a tt2 owners said was clipping his susvara. And I got called out by 2 loud people that it's bogus coz they couldn't drive susvara on their Dave and TT2. ONLY for one of them to buy a line conditioner themselves just 2 months later and now is praising on multiple threads how important it is in their chain...of course their ego is too big and ashamed to msg or mention me. Meanwhile a few people had to message me privately, giving thanks to my posts coz it made them investigate and experiment and agree they can drive their Susvara on Dave, TT2, Hugo 2 and Diablo. They don't have the courage to post seeing all the egos and aggro attitude of other posters. So your message is actually suppressing information.


----------



## Somatic

Reactcore said:


> Its a longshot.. but try a vacuum cleaner on it.. could be dust builtup inside..


I'm thinking it is my source as well. Pretty cheap ASUS PCIE card.

Thinking of getting SRC DX anyways ...

Anyone use OPTODX as well. Did it make a big difference than solo SRC DX?


----------



## SteveHulk

C'mon guys. Peace out. Show some ❤️

This is a good thread. Let's not start flame wars on it.


----------



## MvRBE10

801evan said:


> 1. I didn't realize it was answering a question just from a page before.
> 
> 2. I thought it was a post on how now optical sounded better for you now while bnc sounded better before. That's why I mentioned I don't recall your back story on this but mentioned to support your claim that toslink I/O needs 5 days break in. Then you mentioned the HMS thing and I would agree to that too.
> 
> 3. this is the second time you calling me autistic. The first time was my post on FB sharing about how Susvara sounds great on the Hugo2  with no clipping and distortion on a track a tt2 owners said was clipping his susvara. And I got called out by 2 loud people that it's bogus coz they couldn't drive susvara on their Dave and TT2. ONLY for one of them to buy a line conditioner themselves just 2 months later and now is praising on multiple threads how important it is in their chain...of course their ego is too big and ashamed to msg or mention me. Meanwhile a few people had to message me privately, giving thanks to my posts coz it made them investigate and experiment and agree they can drive their Susvara on Dave, TT2, Hugo 2 and Diablo. They don't have the courage to post seeing all the egos and aggro attitude of other posters. So your message is actually suppressing information.


Its the way you are pushing and the tone of argument… but its not coming through somehow. The end…


----------



## 801evan

MvRBE10 said:


> Its the way you are pushing and the tone of argument… but its not coming through somehow. The end…


1. Seeing that I've been called a troll and to be blocked since December by many members,  may want to reflect why you are calling out my attitude and not theirs.

2. A DC4 owner wouldn't have discovered how good the HP out is on their Dave if it wasn't for my 'attitude'.

3. I have laid the groundwork for people to actually consider the product you developed and invest in that and have confidence they don't need to splurge on an external amp and to appreciate the Dave without any color or distortion via an external amp.

4. Tone of argument and such is expected via "digital is the same 0s and 1s gang".


----------



## MvRBE10

I rest my case 😞….


----------



## MvRBE10

Guys anyone from NY here goin in august a week to new york with my also audio loving son. Anybody now some cool audioshops in NY to visit?


----------



## livebylake

Somatic said:


> Hmmm, so its either my PCIE sound card or my Dave but with sysConcept, Lifatech and Monoprice I am unable to get 24/192 to work. Even 24/96 is not working 100%. My Optical 2 slot works but my Optical slot 1 on Dave is faulty. Other than getting it repaired by Chord. What would be a good alternative?
> 
> SRC DX with dual BNC? Thanks.


Did you try the $8 one from Amazon? If you feel it's too cheap, you can try Wireworld Supernova 7, both works perfectly with my TT2. I heard somewhere people complaining about Lifatech unable to get 192 with Dave and TT2.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DI89VOM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Somatic

livebylake said:


> Did you try the $8 one from Amazon? If you feel it's too cheap, you can try Wireworld Supernova 7, both works perfectly with my TT2. I heard somewhere people complaining about Lifatech unable to get 192 with Dave and TT2.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DI89VOM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I think its my source or possibly my Dave but I can try the one you linked. Did you get this one to work 24/192?


----------



## livebylake

Somatic said:


> I think its my source or possibly my Dave but I can try the one you linked. Did you get this one to work 24/192?


Yeah, both works perfectly. Make sure you hear the click when plugging in, also moving the cable around helps.


----------



## Somatic

adrianm said:


> I definitely agree that Chord's USB implementation at least, is terrible. Which is why the SRC-DX is borderline magical. Yes, that's  the reason why I went down the USB path though, is due to it being the only format that allows me to output up-sampled 24 bit 768 khz data to the SRC-DX.
> Upsampling+ noise reduction is the only "cure" I've found for the compression you're describing. I was close to getting the Innuos, but I'm very skeptical that what it does so well is due to re-clocking. USB audio just doesn't work like SPDIF. Any improvements people hear are most likely due to the clean power provided by the Phoenix. Even if it did somehow matter, the SRC-DX's clock would override that when converting USB to dual SPDIF.
> Add to that Dave's very high jitter resistance, and the Intona USB isolator + mains filter makes more sense. I've also tried SOTM TX Ultra USB + Farad LPSU our of the same conditioner in front of the SRC-DX, and frankly all it did was add noise. It sounded much worse, which is why I now prefer a chain with as few PSU's as possible, so I've given up on auditioning the Phoenix. I believe @edwardsean  can offer a counter-argument here though.
> I realize having a PC in your system might not work for everyone, which is why paying a premium for a tidy solution like the Grimm, or another up-sampling streamer might make sense. The Grimm seems overpriced and underpowered Imo, but they were first out the gate, so that counts for something. This is clearly the direction the industry is going, however I would wait for more capable solutions.
> ...


Hmmm so you are using the Intona USB Isolator? 2.0 or 3.0? SRC-DX and DC Blocks using dual BNC? Have you compared this to toslink? Thanks.


----------



## Somatic (Jul 7, 2022)

Are there any USB Dave users? if so, anyone use USB Isolators as well or just relying on Dave's galvanically isolated USB implementation ...

Edit: Why get the SRC-DX + OptoDX + DC Blocks if someone can use USB + Optically Isolated device?


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> Hmmm so you are using the Intona USB Isolator? 2.0 or 3.0? SRC-DX and DC Blocks using dual BNC? Have you compared this to toslink? Thanks.


Well I preferred Toslink when I was using the M-scaler, because I was using it on a battery and I could isolate it from the mains completely that way. Even so, it generated more noise than my gaming pc via usb, which is why I got rid of it.  Since iI can't stand Dave anymore without HQP  i have to use USB for the full 24 bits 768 khz. Otherwise I'd still be using optical out of the gaming pc, which sounded identical to optical out of the streamer btw. I did think there was a difference initially, but  it turned out to be a faulty optical cable.
  I've  had the Intona 3.0 for about a week or so.   Setup was mains filter->gaming pc->jitterbug->Intona->src-dx->dc-blocks-Dave. Since they all seem to filter different frequencies, every little thing helped, including the Jitterbug. Which kind of pissed me off and made me return the Intona and place an order for the Opto-dx (Plus a complicated power plan for it). In the end I got fed up with the insanity and  cancelled that order as well.
    I've decided to focus on adding an amp for now, as that made more difference than most of this tinkering.


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> Are there any USB Dave users? if so, anyone use USB Isolators as well or just relying on Dave's galvanically isolated USB implementation ...


Definitely don't use USB without SRC-DX. The USB input is clearly the worst.


----------



## Somatic

adrianm said:


> Definitely don't use USB without SRC-DX. The USB input is clearly the worst.


Yeah I might go the SRC-DX + Opto-DX + DC Blocks setup to use HQPlayer as well.

Why is DC blocks even needed if one is getting optical isolation with the OptoDX? Just wondering if there is a cheaper optical isolation solution for USB than the OptoDX ... streamline all the boxes.

Also would SRC-DX + Opto-DX + DC perform the same as Toslink and be identical if running 24/192?


----------



## Somatic

Will see if I do this install today or tomorrow. Burnt out today so we shall see.


----------



## Somatic

zen87192 said:


> OK.... you all convinced me.... unfortunately all Kettle Leads are being actively used in the rooms so I'll have to go in to the loft tomorrow and locate my bag of 'shizzle' and grab a few.... if I can gain access without breaking my neck and then if I can actually find it 🙃


Did you do the install yet? Thoughts?


----------



## zen87192

Somatic said:


> Did you do the install yet? Thoughts?


No. Not yet.  Totally exhausted during this week. I've now received my 3 Farad Power Cables which arrived within two days! This Saturday is my Birthday so I may sit down in the late afternoon for some quiet Birthday time installation. 🤓


----------



## genefruit

Somatic said:


> Yeah I might go the SRC-DX + Opto-DX + DC Blocks setup to use HQPlayer as well.
> 
> Why is DC blocks even needed if one is getting optical isolation with the OptoDX? Just wondering if there is a cheaper optical isolation solution for USB than the OptoDX ... streamline all the boxes.
> 
> Also would SRC-DX + Opto-DX + DC perform the same as Toslink and be identical if running 24/192?


A slimrun optical usb using a separate 5v power source should isolate DAVE from a USB source if that is the desired approach. That said, adding a SRC-DX with the slimrun should provide DAVE with isolation and dual BNC input to avoid the USB input of the DAVE. That’s my plan in the coming days, just to try a new approach with HQPlayer.


----------



## Somatic

zen87192 said:


> No. Not yet.  Totally exhausted during this week. I've now received my 3 Farad Power Cables which arrived within two days! This Saturday is my Birthday so I may sit down in the late afternoon for some quiet Birthday time installation. 🤓


Happy early birthday


----------



## Somatic

I just finished the Farad3 install. Pretty easy. 

First impressions on Farad3 PSU. Amazing. I agree with the assessment of calling it a Dave+. I would say 50% performance delta. First thing I heard was smoothness with added clarity. Like a high end analog gear. Music comes out of a black hole. I am now a firm believer of clean, good power. 

Now time to clean up my source from RF noise and I'm in audio nirvana.


----------



## 801evan

genefruit said:


> A slimrun optical usb using a separate 5v power source should isolate DAVE from a USB source if that is the desired approach. That said, adding a SRC-DX with the slimrun should provide DAVE with isolation and dual BNC input to avoid the USB input of the DAVE. That’s my plan in the coming days, just to try a new approach with HQPlayer.


Slim run helps. Thats been my setup for years but it still leaves Dave underwhelming for me. Slim run + Src dx with sorbothanes is a huge step up.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jul 7, 2022)

Somatic said:


> I just finished the Farad3 install. Pretty easy. First impressions on Farad3 PSU. Amazing. I agree with the assessment of calling it a Dave+. I would say 50% performance delta. First thing I heard was smoothness with added clarity.




Enjoy the music👍🏻


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> I just finished the Farad3 install. Pretty easy.
> 
> First impressions on Farad3 PSU. Amazing. I agree with the assessment of calling it a Dave+. I would say 50% performance delta. First thing I heard was smoothness with added clarity. Like a high end analog gear. Music comes out of a black hole. I am now a firm believer of clean, good power.
> 
> Now time to clean up my source from RF noise and I'm in audio nirvana.


You're almost making me curious. Did you use any power conditioner before?


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> Yeah I might go the SRC-DX + Opto-DX + DC Blocks setup to use HQPlayer as well.
> 
> Why is DC blocks even needed if one is getting optical isolation with the OptoDX? Just wondering if there is a cheaper optical isolation solution for USB than the OptoDX ... streamline all the boxes.
> 
> Also would SRC-DX + Opto-DX + DC perform the same as Toslink and be identical if running 24/192?


Because the Opto dx's optical isolation is compromised the moment you plug in the receiver side into the mains...the only way it works 100% if if you use a battery. 
  Toslink would actually be better at 24/192 because you get full galvanic isolation, 0 noise. Even on battery the Opto-dx is dependent on the voltage regulator used. 
   Unfortunately, no matter how low noise Toslink is, the M-scaler is not immune to jitter, so BNC in actually sounded better from this perspective, but worse from the noise standpoint. So pick your poison. 
    And if you've moved on from the M-scaler, HQP + SRC-DX makes such a big difference than it more than compensates for the noise. Of course, there's no galvanic isolation, which is why the Intona helps. That's the least crazy improvement. The monoprice cable is 10m long and needs another usb a to usb cable and another really good 5v power supply. That + the rest of the stuff I have is already enough to make me buy a streamer/ or Phoenix USB and call it a day.


----------



## Ards (Jul 8, 2022)

Somatic said:


> First impressions on Farad3 PSU. Amazing... Like a high end analog gear.


This was my immediate impression too.  When I first heard the DAVE+ I had a slight panic - the leap forward was so big that I felt I might have just made my vinyl setup redundant.  It helped DAVE sound way more analog to my ears.  There are important qualities in the vinyl sound that I find missing in digital - it's like something is lost in translation.  I've come to the conclusion that what Rob is trying to reconstruct with his algorithms is the timing information that remains intact on vinyl and which is why I've come to prefer vinyl.  But the DAVE+ now gets *much* closer to what I want to hear from digital...


----------



## 801evan

Ards said:


> - the leap forward was so big that I felt I might have just made my vinyl setup redundant


How I felt on my psu upgrades. I have even considered putting my collectibles on the market.


----------



## Triode User

Ards said:


> This was my immediate impression too.  When I first heard the DAVE+ I had a slight panic - the leap forward was so big that I felt I might have just made my vinyl setup redundant.  It helped DAVE sound way more analog to my ears.  There are important qualities in the vinyl sound that I find missing in digital - it's like something is lost in translation.  I've come to the conclusion that what Rob is trying to reconstruct with his algorithms is the timing information that remains intact on vinyl and which is why I've come to prefer vinyl.  But the DAVE+ now gets *much* closer to what I want to hear from digital...


It looks like you guys are having fun. Of course I wouldn’t want to spoil it by letting you hear what Dave+++ sounds like with the latest iteration of the DC4/ARC6 power supply. 😜 😀


----------



## Ards

Triode User said:


> It looks like you guys are having fun. Of course I wouldn’t want to spoil it by letting you hear what Dave+++ sounds like with the latest iteration of the DC4/ARC6 power supply. 😜 😀


I have no doubt, but as I cannot physically accommodate the Sean Jacobs I must resist the temptation to ever hear it!


----------



## zen87192

Triode User said:


> It looks like you guys are having fun. Of course I wouldn’t want to spoil it by letting you hear what Dave+++ sounds like with the latest iteration of the DC4/ARC6 power supply. 😜 😀


As that popular Madness song goes....
🎶 One Step Beyond..... 🎶


----------



## sheridant

doeas the farad need any fancy integration / case opening?


----------



## Somatic

adrianm said:


> You're almost making me curious. Did you use any power conditioner before?


Never used power conditioner. Using zero surge non sacrificial surge protector only


----------



## Somatic

Triode User said:


> It looks like you guys are having fun. Of course I wouldn’t want to spoil it by letting you hear what Dave+++ sounds like with the latest iteration of the DC4/ARC6 power supply. 😜 😀


I can’t imagine hehe. I’m very curious on hearing feedback between the Farad3 and dc4/arc6.


----------



## Somatic

sheridant said:


> doeas the farad need any fancy integration / case opening?


You will need to open the case and replace stock power supply. It’s plug and play not difficult


----------



## sheridant

thanks Somatic - but there is still an additional external box i assume?


----------



## MvRBE10

Three small power supplies farad super3 look at the farad website its all explained and the install manual is somewere back on this thread.


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> Never used power conditioner. Using zero surge non sacrificial surge protector only


Then I can completely understand the 50% delta


----------



## Triode User

Somatic said:


> I can’t imagine hehe. I’m very curious on hearing feedback between the Farad3 and dc4/arc6.


Like I have said, I have only so far compared the Farad Super3 to the DC4 powering a Qutest. There was a gulf between them and since then the DC4 has been upgraded to the ARC6 with another gulf opening up between the DC4 and the ARC6. A few weeks ago I received a request to evaluate a further upgrade to the ARC6 and a friend has described that as being the biggest single upgrade he has heard in my system.

So, indeed it would be fun to have them both side by side one day.. There a few Farads in the UK now so hopefully the lure of Colston Bassett Stilton Cheese (made 1/2 mile from me) will be sufficient temptation to prompt one of us to get in the car and have a go . . . .


----------



## Somatic

Triode User said:


> Like I have said, I have only so far compared the Farad Super3 to the DC4 powering a Qutest. There was a gulf between them and since then the DC4 has been upgraded to the ARC6 with another gulf opening up between the DC4 and the ARC6. A few weeks ago I received a request to evaluate a further upgrade to the ARC6 and a friend has described that as being the biggest single upgrade he has heard in my system.
> 
> So, indeed it would be fun to have them both side by side one day.. There a few Farads in the UK now so hopefully the lure of Colston Bassett Stilton Cheese (made 1/2 mile from me) will be sufficient temptation to prompt one of us to get in the car and have a go . . . .


I don’t doubt the DC4/ARC6 is probably better. But I don’t feel like spending that money at this time. I do wonder what the gulf is between those 2. 20-50%? Hehe. Happy with Farad3 for now which I found a bigger upgrade than the Mscaler to my ears.


----------



## MvRBE10 (Jul 8, 2022)

Somatic said:


> You will need to open the case and replace stock power supply. It’s plug and play not difficult


I have the gigawatts in my powerbox and removed the earth leak breaker that seems to do alot of harm.

Had the same experience here lps was bigger improvement than scaler. More musical more analogue experience. Fatigue and effortless.

Also dont ask me how but by using differen components, wires and the way you build the layout of a lps you can color or not color the sound. My experience is that farad is neutral and does not color. I know mattijs also with his new super10 lps does everything blindtested by a group of people he has. So eg. The dc4 arc etc and farad can also differ in sound color. So it could also be a designers choice. I think in the end its a matter of synergy choice and prefference. I doubt if its alot better at this level. Could be but future will tell.


----------



## Somatic

Just seeing if anyone is selling src-dx? Thanks


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> Just seeing if anyone is selling src-dx? Thanks


Audiowise have 15% off right now


----------



## Somatic

adrianm said:


> Audiowise have 15% off right now


Oh thats why it seemed. Cheaper. Will just buy from them. Thanks.


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> Oh thats why it seemed. Cheaper. Will just buy from them. Thanks.


I'd suggest also trying the Dc blocks. They're actually just rebranded from a US lab equipment manufacturer though. Not sure if they made any other changes, but the pricing is similar.


----------



## Somatic

adrianm said:


> I'd suggest also trying the Dc blocks. They're actually just rebranded from a US lab equipment manufacturer though. Not sure if they made any other changes, but the pricing is similar.


Yes. Going SRC-DX, OPTO-DX, DC Block with HQPlayer. 

Wondering if I should get a LPS for the optodx?


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> Yes. Going SRC-DX, OPTO-DX, DC Block with HQPlayer.
> 
> Wondering if I should get a LPS for the optodx?


Dan's recommendation is to use a battery on at least the Receiver side, and a LPS on the Transmiter side. Or 2 batteries. Honestly, I don't think the Opto-dx is worth the hassle if you have a good source. 6 cables, 2 psus and 2 boxes that still don't work properly without at least one battery. I'd rather just wait for the Ifi Zen Neo streamer which will have NAA + 768 hz and maybe get a Farad for that instead of that whole mess. It will most likely cost as much as the Opto-dx.
   Also, while the Farad is the best lpsu i've tested, it still benefited from my mains filter...so there's that.


----------



## 801evan

Somatic said:


> Yes. Going SRC-DX, OPTO-DX, DC Block with HQPlayer.
> 
> Wondering if I should get a LPS for the optodx?


Weakest link will be the psu quality u feed in any of those. That's kinda the situation. And powerbanks are not good performers for the tier of gear you have.


----------



## Triode User

MvRBE10 said:


> So eg. The dc4 arc etc and farad can also differ in sound color. So it could also be a designers choice. I think in the end its a matter of synergy choice and prefference. I doubt if its alot better at this level. Could be but future will tell.


I'm guessing I am about the only person here who has heard the difference between the DC4 and Farad LPS powering a DAC albeit that it was a Qutest but I can assure you that there was a significant difference to my ears. It was certainly not a matter of differences in colour but if you imagine what you are hearing with the Farad + Dave then I heard the same sort of thing but much more of it when changing to the DC4 from the Farad.

For instance if bass is tight and deep with one then there is always room for it to be deeper and tighter with another. I used to think the way that an acoustic guitar note was plucked was divine with say one of the power supplies and then I heard a better one and realised there is always better, sometimes significantly better even if prior to hearing it cannot be imagined in isolation.

I have also heard this when going from the DC4 to the ARC6. It was not a matter of the colour changing but rather that everything was better. Also I have heard the differences when say keeping the analogue rails supplied by 2x DC4 and then just changing the 5V digital rail to ARC6 specification. That was a big surprise. It has been the same with the Mscaler and how much better that got each time I changed from Dc3 to Dc4 and then to ARC6 and I sort of wonder whether your disenchantment with the Mscaler had anything to do with the Farad supply to it. My ARC6 Mscaler is still a joy in my ARC6 Dave system and whenever I have taken it out it is always a delight to put the Mscaler back in the system.

Anyway, just musings.


----------



## Triode User

Somatic said:


> Yes. Going SRC-DX, OPTO-DX, DC Block with HQPlayer.
> 
> Wondering if I should get a LPS for the optodx?


Well you are going at a million miles an hour again!! Think about the bigger picture. The SRC.DX is great but it gets even better if it is fed a better USB signal and also if the USB 5V rail is really clean. So hence why I use the PhoenixUSB to connect to the SRC.DX.

The Opto.DX is a clever idea and works well with many people but it is a real commitment to get it optimised in terms of the power to each side and in terms of getting the right result with the BNC cables both before the Opto and between the Opto.DX and the DAC. Also, I agree with @801evan  that PowerBanks are not good performers in my experience but others might have had a better time than me.

Try the DC Blocks. When they are needed they work well but not all systems need them. I heard no difference with them in or out.

Have you settled on a source yet?


----------



## MvRBE10

I can understand indeed these improvemenst are incremental. But i guess you are at a 20k powersupply system if i all add them up. I just cant take that route. Hope when farad has his super10 finished, also a 3k lps per piece to see what that will being as improvement. That would be a fairer comperisment. But we have to judge it also with our wallet not only the ears and this is already a huge step up and utterly safe thats also a reason for some people.


----------



## chesebert (Jul 8, 2022)

You all do realize Linn Klimax Organik is only $40k and Rossini (Apex) is a mere $30k, correct?


----------



## adrianm

chesebert said:


> You all do realize Linn Klimax Organik is only $40k and Rossini (Apex) is a mere $30k, correct?


HAHA. Love it  I actually do, which is why I didn't go for a custom psu yet. But the Lina will have to wow me. Rossini's too big for my tastes, and from what i've heard Bartok 2.0 is 90% of the Rossini (Non-apex) , so i expected that's where the Lina will be in a year or 2. Rossini owners really got their panties in a bunch after the upgrade.


----------



## TheAttorney

Triode User said:


> A few weeks ago I received a request to evaluate a further upgrade to the ARC6 and a friend has described that as being the biggest single upgrade he has heard in my system.


So what is this mysterious further upgrade to ARC6? As much as you can say at this point.
Is it something that fits inside DAVE in the space of the old p/s and does it look horribly expensive?


----------



## 801evan (Jul 8, 2022)

Going cheap on one single psu and cable will ruin the extra money you put in in the other chain. The opto dx opens a can of worms with the need to get hq psus. The opto dx requires 2 really good psus on both ends. Please don't use powerbanks coz...it's not going to sound right.

This is my usb chain
Idefender plus to purifier 3 to cosemi optical cable 1m to idefender plus to purifier 3 to src dx.

The idefender plus on both ends is powered externally with the best psu I can accommodate. Purifier on the upstream tackles smoothness, soundstage, timing. Purifier on the downstream tackles dynamics, blacks,.deepness and extension. The upstream idefender and purifier also preps to give the cosemi optical cable good power quality and good reclocked data. This still requires two psus, but with baby steps. For starters, just skip the external power and dual Purifiers. The purifiers doesn't sound good if there is no external power being fed.

Cosemi had since been bought by mobix labs and one has to shoot them an email to request for a 1m AOC USB cable male A to female A. (That's how it was with Cosemi) Then buy a uptone uspcb (200 hours break in). I made silver occ ultrashort A to B which has a much SQ than the uptone.


----------



## Triode User (Jul 8, 2022)

MvRBE10 said:


> I can understand indeed these improvemenst are incremental. *But i guess you are at a 20k powersupply system* if i all add them up. I just cant take that route. Hope when farad has his super10 finished, also a 3k lps per piece to see what that will being as improvement. That would be a fairer comperisment. But we have to judge it also with our wallet not only the ears and this is already a huge step up and utterly safe thats also a reason for some people.


No, the DC4 three rail supply for Dave is £4500 and that sounds amazing. The ARC6 for Dave is £5850. All plus VAT of course but so are the Farad prices. Whilst the Farad is cheaper than the DC4 I am guessing it is not ridiculously cheaper. If the Farad Super10 is going to be 3k per piece plus the Dave board then that is going to be 10k plus VAT which is quite a bit more than the ARC6.


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 8, 2022)

801evan said:


> The opto dx requires 2 really good psus on both ends. Please don't use powerbanks coz...it's not going to sound right.



Thats why i just ordered 2 sets of these:


I will build the TX ones into Mscaler and the RX ones into Dave and use both unit's internal 5v rails. So no external RF or groundloops possible. They use a 50/125 MM fiber with ST bajonet connector (locks like BNC)

They support upto 5Mbaud speed which is more than enough for 2x 384k Spdif.

I will report after my testings.. but first the long wait for delivery from China..


----------



## 801evan

Reactcore said:


> Thats why i just ordered 2 sets of these:
> 
> I will build the TX ones into Mscaler and the RX ones into Dave and use both unit's internal 5v rails. So no external RF or groundloops possible. They use a 50/125 MM fiber with ST bajonet connector (locks like BNC)
> 
> ...


Fancy. Will it replace any of the spdif sockets? Does it have a crystal inside?


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 8, 2022)

801evan said:


> Fancy. Will it replace any of the spdif sockets? Does it have a crystal inside?


Nope it will act as a replacement or addon for 2 coax inputs (DBNC)
Theyre plain simple analog devices

But i must convert floating 0.6Vtt spdif to TTL and back to make it work.
This i will test before altering my Dave and Mscaler


----------



## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> So what is this mysterious further upgrade to ARC6? As much as you can say at this point.
> Is it something that fits inside DAVE in the space of the old p/s and does it look horribly expensive?


All I can say is that I am guessing it is less than 1K. Apart from that I cannot say more. I might already have said more than I should.


----------



## audio_1

adrianm said:


> Because the Opto dx's optical isolation is compromised the moment you plug in the receiver side into the mains...the only way it works 100% if if you use a battery.
> Toslink would actually be better at 24/192 because you get full galvanic isolation, 0 noise. Even on battery the Opto-dx is dependent on the voltage regulator used.
> Unfortunately, no matter how low noise Toslink is, the M-scaler is not immune to jitter, so BNC in actually sounded better from this perspective, but worse from the noise standpoint. So pick your poison.
> And if you've moved on from the M-scaler, HQP + SRC-DX makes such a big difference than it more than compensates for the noise. Of course, there's no galvanic isolation, which is why the Intona helps. That's the least crazy improvement. The monoprice cable is 10m long and needs another usb a to usb cable and another really good 5v power supply. That + the rest of the stuff I have is already enough to make me buy a streamer/ or Phoenix USB and call it a day.


Have you heard it! It's performance is not compromised if there is a high impedance path between the mains supply for the Dave, opto-dx receiver and the Blu2 or Mscaler and digital source components. I have separate circuits for the Dave opto-dx receiver and the Heisenberg power amps and the opto-dx transmitter, Blu2 and digital sources.  I also have separate power conditioners on each circuit. By high impedance path, I mean long power supply cables from the consumer unit, power conditioner and power cords. There is absolutely no brightness, brittleness or fatigue in my system sounds really musical. Mscaling works wonders on 44.1 kHz 16 bit files from Qobuz and makes them sound almost as good as high resolution recordings.


----------



## audio_1 (Jul 8, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> Thats why i just ordered 2 sets of these:
> 
> I will build the TX ones into Mscaler and the RX ones into Dave and use both unit's internal 5v rails. So no external RF or groundloops possible. They use a 50/125 MM fiber with ST bajonet connector (locks like BNC)
> 
> ...


Can you just connect the Mscaler's BNC Spdif output directly into the transmitter and Dave's BNC Spdif into into the receiver? This imho is the way the Dave and Mscaler should be connected. Sorry for posting, just read the post above.


----------



## kawhia

Does anyone know where to connect the phase? Up or down?


----------



## adrianm

audio_1 said:


> Have you heard it! It's performance is not compromised if there is a high impedance path between the mains supply for the Dave, opto-dx receiver and the Blu2 or Mscaler and digital source components. I have separate circuits for the Dave opto-dx receiver and the Heisenberg power amps and the opto-dx transmitter, Blu2 and digital sources.  I also have separate power conditioners on each circuit. By high impedance path, I mean long power supply cables from the consumer unit, power conditioner and power cords. There is absolutely no brightness, brittleness or fatigue in my system sounds really musical. Mscaling works wonders on 44.1 kHz 16 bit files from Qobuz and makes them sound almost as good as high resolution recordings.


I haven't, that's pretty much what Dan told me. I also considered some crazy power scheme but in the end, that's just too much hassle for me.  I'm sick of expensive ghetto solutions for a 14k dac.


----------



## Reactcore

audio_1 said:


> Can you just connect the Mscaler's BNC Spdif output directly into the transmitter and Dave's BNC Spdif into into the receiver? This imho is the way the Dave and Mscaler should be connected. Sorry for posting, just read the post above.


Well you can.. but it wont do anything.

The transmitter emitter uses 5v
I will feed the positive half of the BNC signal to the base of a NPN transistor to 'switch' the emitter on/off. 

On the receiver side i try use a resistor devider to lower the output voltage.

Since 1's and 0's are determined by the state times (small vs wider pulses) a rise/fall delay shouldnt matter much. As long i keep both channels synchronised.

If it works out i will create a 'How to' thread and a schematic. Its for sure Much cheaper than a Wave or Opto-DX solution.
(under €100 with 0.5m fiber cables included)


----------



## adrianm

Reactcore said:


> Well you can.. but it wont do anything.
> 
> The transmitter emitter uses 5v
> I will feed the positive half of the BNC signal to the base of a NPN transistor to 'switch' the emitter on/off.
> ...


So much innovation coming out of the Netherlands lol


----------



## Reactcore

adrianm said:


> So much innovation coming out of the Netherlands lol


Lol im a money pincher.. and like to hobby around.. i dont like to walk the easy and expensive paths


----------



## Somatic

So if one tries and upscales with HQPlayer doesn’t this bypass Rob’s WTA filters? Isn’t this the whole point of buying the Chord gear for its signature sound?


----------



## muski

Somatic said:


> Yes. Going SRC-DX, OPTO-DX, DC Block with HQPlayer.
> 
> Wondering if I should get a LPS for the optodx?



I experimented with different Opto-DX power setups and ended up using a pair of UltraCap LPS-1.2s. On the T side I have one LPS-1.2 connected to a decent LPS. On the R side the other LPS-1.2 is fed by a PowerAdd battery to maintain power isolation. I'm not an electrical engineer, but the idea was to give the SRC-DX fast power with low-impedance without adding too much noise. Sounded better to my ears.

Yes, it's a lot of boxes but I mostly listen with my eyes closed


----------



## Somatic

Just curious if the SRC-DX, OPTO-DX, DC Block out of motherboard USB is comparable to toslink? The USB input on the Dave sounds dull and distant compared to the clearer optical input.


----------



## Somatic

Not sure what I did but finally got 24/192 working on the Dave of my PC sound card.


----------



## Reactcore

Somatic said:


> Just curious if the SRC-DX, OPTO-DX, DC Block out of motherboard USB is comparable to toslink? The USB input on the Dave sounds dull and distant compared to the clearer optical input.


Isolation wise its the same effect, taken you feed DX perfect clean power. Toslink limits to 24/192 by design.



Somatic said:


> So if one tries and upscales with HQPlayer doesn’t this bypass Rob’s WTA filters? Isn’t this the whole point of buying the Chord gear for its signature sound?


For what i understood:

Rob's Dacs have 2 digital filter stages, WTA1 which does the timing reconstruction (upsampling)

And WTA2 doing the noise shaping and steering the pulse array DAC.

WTA1 samples internally up to 704/768k.
When inputting higher sampled sources, WTA1 will only sample up from what it gets delivered.

So if you feed it a 704/768k signal From Mscaler or HQP with DX It will just pass the data on to the WTA2 stage.


----------



## 801evan

Somatic said:


> Just curious if the SRC-DX, OPTO-DX, DC Block out of motherboard USB is comparable to toslink?


They are mostly 'converters' though u will get a better output if the audio wise line get fed with good external power. However, GIGO. If the transport is a PC, it's really hard to get those deep blacks. Zen stream to usb out to whatever audio wise or ifi chain will help get u deeper blacks.


----------



## Rob Watts

Reactcore said:


> Isolation wise its the same effect, taken you feed DX perfect clean power. Toslink limits to 24/192 by design.
> 
> 
> For what i understood:
> ...


Just to clarify - WTA1 is the "prime" WTA filter, and takes everything to 16Fs (705 or 768 kHz). WTA2 is the same as WTA1 but works from 16Fs to 256Fs (11.2896 or 12.288) MHz . Then there is a final three stage IIR type filter that takes you from 256Fs to 104.25MHz. Once the signal is filtered at 104MHz it then goes to the noise shapers to create the 20e pulse array elements to create the analogue outputs.

Note that all of the filters are about transient reconstruction - but each filter has very different requirements from the sound quality POV. What is required to get you to 16Fs is very different to what is required at 104MHz. It's very much more complex than people imagine.


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 9, 2022)

Theyre here 😃




Its time to build some 'TT2 amp' current reserve into my Dave.

Now there 3v/cell Supercaps available i can do with 2 double ones to buffer the final regulators 12v rails. Having even better ESR

I will create a separate 'how to' thread


----------



## ecwl

So @Rob Watts has said in the past that for most amps that are connected to the DAVE, it is likely that RCA would sound better than XLR. Well, I have had my XLR cables between DAVE and Etude for a very long time. And I hate switching cables behind my cabinet or just switching cables for switching sake (especially if it’s just to get a slightly different sound but not a genuine improvement). And I actually don’t enjoy A/B’ing cables or tweaks in general as time is precious so it’s always better to listen to more music. Hence, it was something I never bothered to explore until today…

And as expected, the product designer knows how to optimize the performance of his products. I’m getting better transparency and soundstage depth with the RCA over the XLR so voices and instruments take on slightly more 3D holographic volume. The sonic improvement is just big enough I think I’ll have to switch the cables permanently.


----------



## adrianm

ecwl said:


> So @Rob Watts has said in the past that for most amps that are connected to the DAVE, it is likely that RCA would sound better than XLR. Well, I have had my XLR cables between DAVE and Etude for a very long time. And I hate switching cables behind my cabinet or just switching cables for switching sake (especially if it’s just to get a slightly different sound but not a genuine improvement). And I actually don’t enjoy A/B’ing cables or tweaks in general as time is precious so it’s always better to listen to more music. Hence, it was something I never bothered to explore until today…
> 
> And as expected, the product designer knows how to optimize the performance of his products. I’m getting better transparency and soundstage depth with the RCA over the XLR so voices and instruments take on slightly more 3D holographic volume. The sonic improvement is just big enough I think I’ll have to switch the cables permanently.


Being a Chord product, I assume the Etude is not a balanced amplifier. I don't think things are as black and white with a fully balanced amp.


----------



## ecwl

adrianm said:


> Being a Chord product, I assume the Etude is not a balanced amplifier. I don't think things are as black and white with a fully balanced amp.


The specs say Chord Etude uses fully balanced circuitry. Which is another reason why I stuck with XLR interconnect for so long. But I don’t know for sure. To me, it’s just something for people to try since I have seen very few people say that they compared RCA vs XLR interconnect to their amp and they preferred RCA and why. I think most of us just use whatever cables we already own to connect DAVE to amp.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> Being a Chord product, I assume the Etude is not a balanced amplifier. I don't think things are as black and white with a fully balanced amp.


My power amps are fully balanced and I get the best sound using the XLR output from Dave. The slight loss of quality with that output is more than offset by allowing my power amps to work as designed.


----------



## adrianm

ecwl said:


> The specs say Chord Etude uses fully balanced circuitry. Which is another reason why I stuck with XLR interconnect for so long. But I don’t know for sure. To me, it’s just something for people to try since I have seen very few people say that they compared RCA vs XLR interconnect to their amp and they preferred RCA and why. I think most of us just use whatever cables we already own to connect DAVE to amp.


I actually have an Oor coming and have to decide what cables to buy. Will have to audition both, but i assumed it would be XLR.


Triode User said:


> My power amps are fully balanced and I get the best sound using the XLR output from Dave. The slight loss of quality with that output is more than offset by allowing my power amps to work as designed.


Whether "as intended" or just 4x more power , the Oor sounded considerably better using the balanced output rather than the single ended. I expect this would be the case with balanced inputs as well.


----------



## audio_1 (Jul 10, 2022)

I believe the best solution with chord DACs is to use single ended power amps. That is one of the reasons I chose the Audionet Heisenberg power amps. Single ended is better anyway as there are only half the components in the signal path. Long analogue interconnect are generally not necessary in domestic Hi-Fi systems either.


----------



## Triode User

audio_1 said:


> I believe the best solution with chord DACs is to use single ended power amps. That is one of the reasons I chose the Audionet Heisenberg power amps. Single ended is better anyway as there are only half the components in the signal path. Long analogue interconnect are generally not necessary in domestic Hi-Fi systems either.


As has been mentioned it really depends on many factors and there is no simple answer. I prefer the sound of my Pass Labs amps to any other power amp I have heard and they happen to be a fully balanced design so they sound best when their balanced input is used. I have the power amps next to each speaker and so the speaker cables are about 80cm length.

Anyway I expect your Audionet Heisenberg power amps are something rather special and you are rather lucky to have them.


----------



## Clive101

Dave Balanced vs RCA into Bryston 28b3 
Balanced is better.

Dave Balanced vs RCA into WA33 EE JPS
Very odd I could not tell the difference. I was able to connect Dave with both RCA and Balanced at the same time and switch between two via the selector on the WA33 even the volume was the same...!

All cables Chord Sarum T 

PS I do not do small detail.


----------



## Reactcore

Reactcore said:


> Its time to build some 'TT2 amp' current reserve into my Dave.



Ok this project stays on hold for a bit.

I did some measuring with a lab supply.. those caps take 30sec to charge on limited 1A.

I can't just place them directly over the power rails without controlled charging first. It would otherwise overload the regulators.

I must design a charge stage first.
Like its done in TT2 actually.

To be continued


----------



## Triode User

Reactcore said:


> Ok this project stays on hold for a bit.
> 
> I did some measuring with a lab supply.. those caps take 30sec to charge on limited 1A.
> 
> ...


I had been wondering how you were going to do it. I did some playing around with supercaps in a power supply last year and connecting them when they are fully discharged is a bit like shorting out the feed from the voltage rail. Expect exciting things to happen and probably magic smoke!.  I did introduce an initial charge current limiter and also tried a switch to do the initial charge from a high current supply but ultimately I abandoned the super caps because of their higher noise and now use low noise caps instead.


----------



## TheR0v3r

Somatic said:


> I think its my source or possibly my Dave but I can try the one you linked. Did you get this one to work 24/192?


I’ve used Supras toslink to get 24/192 with Chord DACs. Worked every time, great value. 

Oddly enough I really liked:

Source->Toslink-> MScaler-> Toslink->Chord Dac


----------



## Malcyg

ecwl said:


> So @Rob Watts has said in the past that for most amps that are connected to the DAVE, it is likely that RCA would sound better than XLR. Well, I have had my XLR cables between DAVE and Etude for a very long time. And I hate switching cables behind my cabinet or just switching cables for switching sake (especially if it’s just to get a slightly different sound but not a genuine improvement). And I actually don’t enjoy A/B’ing cables or tweaks in general as time is precious so it’s always better to listen to more music. Hence, it was something I never bothered to explore until today…
> 
> And as expected, the product designer knows how to optimize the performance of his products. I’m getting better transparency and soundstage depth with the RCA over the XLR so voices and instruments take on slightly more 3D holographic volume. The sonic improvement is just big enough I think I’ll have to switch the cables permanently.



I hate swapping cables and components as well, but sometimes you do have to make the effort. 😉 I have always preferred the RCA output from Dave, irrespective of amplifier topology, for the very reasons that you mention. I have said so on here a few times in the past because it seemed apparent that most people seemed to opt straight for XLR without properly trying them out against each other. For me, RCA gave a lot more subtle detail, air, dimensionality and transparency. XLR gave more dynamic slam, punch, warmth and solidity and I can appreciate why some may prefer that. It’s all about taste and preference and I do wish that more people would use words like ’preferred’ and ‘favoured’ instead of better and best. It’s not a competition!

I am pleased that you are enjoying this discovery and would encourage others to try both ways thoroughly before deciding.


----------



## adrianm

Malcyg said:


> I am pleased that you are enjoying this discovery and would encourage others to try both ways thoroughly before deciding.


Well hell, now I _have_ to A/B them. Hope my dealer has both variants.


----------



## pichler

Also in my case using two Etudes in mono I like the result much more from Dave's RCA (I've had it for about a month, I couldn't imagine such a big difference compared to TT2)


----------



## ecwl

So I have the following conjecture about why most of the time, RCA is technically superior to XLR from DAVE.
If you’re driving your amp directly, let’s say listening at a volume level of -19dB via XLR so you’re putting 1V via XLR into your amp. If you’re using RCA, your volume level would be -13dB to get 1V into your amp. But since the -19dB signal and the -13dB signal all come from the pulse array DAC which has a fixed noise floor, you’re actually going to get slightly better SNR from the -13dB compared to the -19dB signal. Because the way the XLR generates the 1V signal is to take a -19dB 0.5V signal from the pulse array DAC and then feed it through the inverting amplifier to give you the 1V. So with XLR, you’re starting off with a lower signal with slightly lower SNR and then adding an inverting amplifier which may affect transparency.

Of course, this is purely from the DAC end. Depending on the amp, the signal from DAVE could be attenuated, altered, via RCA/XLR which could also affect SNR or transparency.

To me, the interesting question is for people who normally hook up their integrated amp (or headphone amp with volume control) to DAVE. Because if you normally just set DAVE into DAC mode (-3dB), then RCA would output 3V and XLR would output 6V and you might just adjust the integrated/headphone amp volume control to balance the higher voltage from the XLR and you might prefer the XLR sound. But to me, then, the better comparison would be to use RCA and set DAVE at +3dB so that you’re getting 6V RCA into your amp and compare that to -3dB at 6V XLR into your amp. We are of course assuming that your amp’s volume control is not going to clip a 6V RCA signal. I suspect in that comparison, given the right circumstances, the RCA output of DAVE would likely sound better than XLR.

Bottomline is that there are a lot of factors that come into play once DAVE is feeding an amp or preamp via RCA vs XLR. Which is probably why ultimately, people just need to test this with their amps if they have the luxury to do so.


----------



## Malcyg

adrianm said:


> Well hell, now I _have_ to A/B them. Hope my dealer has both variants.



😂 Yes, my comment could read a bit condescending. Not intended, must have been the Sunday wine speaking. What do you mean by dealer having both variants? I was assuming that most amps have both input options.


----------



## adrianm

Malcyg said:


> 😂 Yes, my comment could read a bit condescending. Not intended, must have been the Sunday wine speaking. What do you mean by dealer having both variants? I was assuming that most amps have both input options.


No, not at all  For cables I mean, my amp's not here yet so I haven't bought any. I liked the Crystal cable micro diamond XLR's i've auditioned, but i'll have to check out a pair with RCA terminations as well for an apples to apples comparison.


----------



## 801evan

Triode User said:


> ultimately I abandoned the super caps because of their higher noise


No wonder. That's why I feel the blacks were underwhelming on the lps 1.2 and tt2.


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 11, 2022)

801evan said:


> No wonder. That's why I feel the blacks were underwhelming on the lps 1.2 and tt2.


Capacitors dont generate noise by themselves
The noise triode mentions comes from cap applyance for ripple rejection.. Then net noise passes more easily through them.

I want to use them differently.. at the end of Dave's internal linear regulation stage.. as steady current buffers ..giving Dave's amp more juice to drive my cans.

I have already new components ordered to make a pre-charge circuit before the caps get applied to the power rails


----------



## muski

801evan said:


> Tried Orea and stuff from Herbie's audio lab and other stuff. Sorbothanes still win by a lot. Some ppl don't like it coz they claim it dampens too much. I don't think so at all. It's coz their stuff is too noisy that sorbothanes can accentuate those issues. I'm now using EMI blankets and its like the missing piece to the puzzle.


+1

I tried the same test: four IsoAcoustics Orea vs three Vibrapod #2 plus cones under the DAVE. Vibrapods sounded (much) better to my ears too.

What EMI blankets are you using?


----------



## ZappaMan (Jul 11, 2022)

A moon shaped pool sounds completely different on Dave then it did on tt2.
Hearing much more intent, layers. It sounds so calm.
It was really relaxing, I might add an etude, although I’m direct driving happily to 94db efficient omega cam speakers/sub.
If anyone can talk me into it, plz do.


----------



## LucyWu

I lucked into a Sablon Evo USB cable on Ebay last week. It arrived yesterday and I've only had a chance for a quick listen. It connects from a Matrix Element H USB slot powered by a low noise lpsu to power my SRC-DX.

Quite a jump from my Artisan Silver USB cable. More space, instruments more clearly separate within that space, and it seems to tease out more rumble (within the scope of my Raals). It's too hot to go running in the evenings, so more time to evaluate but it should keep me happy until I decide if a psu upgrade for Dave is "necessary".


----------



## 801evan

muski said:


> +1
> 
> I tried the same test: four IsoAcoustics Orea vs three Vibrapod #2 plus cones under the DAVE. Vibrapods sounded (much) better to my ears too.
> 
> What EMI blankets are you using?


----------



## pichler

ZappaMan said:


> A moon shaped pool sounds completely different on Dave then it did on tt2.
> Hearing much more intent, layers. It sounds so calm.
> It was really relaxing, I might add an etude, although I’m direct driving happily to 94db efficient omega cam speakers/sub.
> If anyone can talk me into it, plz do.


I think if you add an Etude to the Dave and your high efficiency speakers, Tom Yorke will clap just for you  Connecting the Dave to the Etude with RCA will keep all the transparency. The first watts also sound good. I started with a stereo Etude for my Blumenhofer Genuin FS2, then, I had a credit from the seller and I wanted to try one per channel in bridge mode, the result in my opinion is excellent. the internal fan is not an insurmountable problem,
it is very transparent as I told you, fast, very neutral in my opinion. always in my opinion, beautiful little object.


----------



## maxh22

muski said:


> +1
> 
> I tried the same test: four IsoAcoustics Orea vs three Vibrapod #2 plus cones under the DAVE. Vibrapods sounded (much) better to my ears too.
> 
> What EMI blankets are you using?


What differences do you hear?


----------



## Somatic

Anyone find it dumb that one has to use the Remote to put Dave on standby and also to get it out of standby? ...


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 12, 2022)

+1
If i switch Dave off using the backswitch i get a 'pop' through my HP. Standby doesnt do that


----------



## Somatic (Jul 12, 2022)

Was listening to the Final A800 today out of Dave + Farad3 and noticed that all the sibilance is gone. Much smoother but lost a bit of the edge. I can see this combo working well with Headphones on the edge of sibilance. Waiting for my new cable so haven't tested the LCD5 too much but noticed EQ was no longer needed as it subdued the harshness one can get from too much energy in the mid range.

Edit: Planning to get a 100% silver cable for the IEM as well.


----------



## paulrbarnard

Somatic said:


> Was listening to the Final A800 today out of Dave + Farad3 and noticed that all the sibilance is gone. Much smoother but lost a bit of the edge. I can see this combo working well with Headphones on the edge of sibilance. Waiting for my new cable so haven't tested the LCD5 too much but noticed EQ was no longer needed as it subdued the harshness one can get from too much energy in the mid range.


What cable are you waiting for for the LCD5?  I just got an LCD5 to use with DAVE and was intending to use the front jack.


----------



## Somatic

paulrbarnard said:


> What cable are you waiting for for the LCD5?  I just got an LCD5 to use with DAVE and was intending to use the front jack.


Solo Dave can power the LCD5. No issues. Good combo.

I'm waiting for an adapter so I can use Lavricables Grand silver cable.


----------



## livebylake

Somatic said:


> Anyone find it dumb that one has to use the Remote to put Dave on standby and also to get it out of standby? ...


Guess you are still in the honeymoon period with DAVE and like to touch it. I always use remote to control everything. Congratulations for your happy purchases of DAVE and LCD-5.


----------



## Somatic

livebylake said:


> Guess you are still in the honeymoon period with DAVE and like to touch it. I always use remote to control everything. Congratulations for your happy purchases of DAVE and LCD-5.


Yup. LOL. I have it as my desk setup. Arm length away.


----------



## Triode User

Somatic said:


> Anyone find it dumb that one has to use the Remote to put Dave on standby and also to get it out of standby? ...


I have a solution! Don’t bother putting it in standby.  

I just leave my Dave powered up 24/7.


----------



## Somatic

Triode User said:


> I have a solution! Don’t bother putting it in standby.
> 
> I just leave my Dave powered up 24/7.


I leave it on as well. Just sometimes want it on standby if I’m not using for a while. No issues. Just think it should be possible without remote. 

Does your Dave run cooler as well with DC4?


----------



## kawhia

Do you know the power consumption of Dave in idle and in stand by? I always turn it off at the back and also would like to have a standby knob on the unit.


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> Anyone find it dumb that one has to use the Remote to put Dave on standby and also to get it out of standby? ...


I don't use the remote - I have no idea where it is - but now you mention it... 😂

Putting it in standby and then the dog chewing the remote would be a real problem, especially if after going into standby a restart results in the DAVE still being in standby. 😳



Somatic said:


> I leave it on as well. Just sometimes want it on standby if I’m not using for a while. No issues. Just think it should be possible without remote.
> 
> Does your Dave run cooler as well with DC4?


DAVE definitely runs cooler on the Farads, that I can say.

Getting those fiery voltage regulators in the smps out of the case definitely helps with that.


----------



## adrianm

SteveHulk said:


> I don't use the remote - I have no idea where it is - but now you mention it... 😂
> 
> Putting it in standby and then the dog chewing the remote would be a real problem, especially if after going into standby a restart results in the DAVE still being in standby. 😳


Not sure what you guys mean, I travel with Dave without the remote, when I turn the switch on the back it just turns on, out of standby. I assume using another power supply would result in the different behavior you're describing.


----------



## SteveHulk

adrianm said:


> Not sure what you guys mean, I travel with Dave without the remote, when I turn the switch on the back it just turns on, out of standby. I assume using another power supply would result in the different behavior you're describing.


Restarting out of standby is the necessary safety mechanism to stop the DAVE becoming a brick in this way 🙂

I've never used the remote or standby so I never put it to the test.


----------



## DJJEZ

Triode User said:


> I have a solution! Don’t bother putting it in standby.
> 
> I just leave my Dave powered up 24/7.


This is what I've done since day one as well


----------



## Triode User

DJJEZ said:


> This is what I've done since day one as well


Great minds think alike but fools seldom differ! 🤣


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> Anyone find it dumb that one has to use the Remote to put Dave on standby and also to get it out of standby? ...


The DAVE remote was always useless to me.

Because of the gym workout my fingers are very thick and I could not get my fingertips into those little holes in the metal casing of the remote to press the buttons. 

So I quit trying to use it.


----------



## Lgn3

SteveHulk said:


> I don't use the remote - I have no idea where it is - but now you mention it... 😂
> 
> Putting it in standby and then the dog chewing the remote would be a real problem, especially if after going into standby a restart results in the DAVE still being in standby. 😳



I switch off DAVE and all HiFi and AV equipment when not in use.


----------



## nwavesailor

The only thing I use the DAVE remote for is volume.

My gear may sit days w/o use, so it all gets shut down. Perhaps 24/7 sounds better but I doubt my ears could detect it.


----------



## jlbrach

mine is always in standby and the remote is used for volume


----------



## GryphonGuy

My remote only ever made the volume go up and down, it had 47,000 buttons (exaggeration) and the stand-by mode never worked, so I used to turn it off at the back until I purchased the DC4/ARC6 and now like Triode User, I keep it on 24/7 unless a tropical storm is overhead.


----------



## nwavesailor (Jul 12, 2022)

Is the point of always being on or in standby a much better sounding DAVE?

I leave my computer on sleep or standby but not any audio gear, particularly tubes.


----------



## DJJEZ

nwavesailor said:


> Is the point of always being on or in standby a much better sounding DAVE?
> 
> I leave my computer on sleep or standby but not any audio gear, particularly tubes.


Less chance of failure as your not constantly turning it on and off plus it will always be at optimum temperature all the time


----------



## muski

LucyWu said:


> I lucked into a Sablon Evo USB cable on Ebay last week. It arrived yesterday and I've only had a chance for a quick listen. It connects from a Matrix Element H USB slot powered by a low noise lpsu to power my SRC-DX.
> 
> Quite a jump from my Artisan Silver USB cable. More space, instruments more clearly separate within that space, and it seems to tease out more rumble (within the scope of my Raals). It's too hot to go running in the evenings, so more time to evaluate but it should keep me happy until I decide if a psu upgrade for Dave is "necessary".


I have the Sablon 2020 USB and Ethernet cables. They certainly are special.


----------



## nwavesailor

DJJEZ said:


> Less chance of failure as your not constantly turning it on and off plus it will always be at optimum temperature all the time


When I do turn it on it is only one time a day if I am listening that night. I've been doing so many other things outdoors (windsurfing, golf, hiking) with it light till after nine that I am listening much less lately.

I may revisit the 'always on' thing in the Fall.


----------



## muski

maxh22 said:


> What differences do you hear?


I hear a nice jump in clarity—esp. smaller details and tighter positioning of instruments. Noticeable with the DAVE and M Scaler, but even more so when I put Vibrapods under my 2-channel Devialet Experts.

I was dubious on the whole vibration thing, but thought I'd give it a try after noticing that all Innuos products share two characteristics: top-notch Sean Jacobs power supplies and "Anti-Vibration feet tuned to the resonant frequency of the chassis". I liked the Innuos Phoenix USB and NET products so much I thought they must be on to something...


----------



## ZappaMan

I noticed that the rubber feet in the Dave are just half circles glued into circular cut outs in the floor of the base. I was a bit surprised, I somehow imagined there was more to them.


----------



## MvRBE10

ZappaMan said:


> I noticed that the rubber feet in the Dave are just half circles glued into circular cut outs in the floor of the base. I was a bit surprised, I somehow imagined there was more to them.


Somehow i hear from different corners that these kind of rubbers are not bad. And dave is a solid block of aluminium.


----------



## Triode User

ZappaMan said:


> I noticed that the rubber feet in the Dave are just half circles glued into circular cut outs in the floor of the base. I was a bit surprised, I somehow imagined there was more to them.


Similar really to all the Chord digital kit  . . . . And yet the Dave still gets rave reviews for its sound quality (and I admit that is how I still use my Dave after all these years of owning it). Mind you I am not denying that isolation might be even better and would like to try some one day. Large sorbothane hemispheres have worked well for me on other kit even if they can be a bit wobbly so I might try them first.


----------



## Ards

Triode User said:


> Large sorbothane hemispheres have worked well for me on other kit even if they can be a bit wobbly so I might try them first.


I use a two tier setup.  Vibrapod feet under a bamboo platform.  The DAVE then sits happily on top of two layers of vibration reduction.  The trick with reducing vibrations is a simple as using dissimilar materials at each level to avoid transmission - so avoid metal on metal, wood on wood etc.


----------



## 801evan

Ards said:


> I use a two tier setup.  Vibrapod feet under a bamboo platform.  The DAVE then sits happily on top of two layers of vibration reduction.  The trick with reducing vibrations is a simple as using dissimilar materials at each level to avoid transmission - so avoid metal on metal, wood on wood etc.


How's the difference with the two layer vs one? I've tried this but found tacky sorbothane on the device alone is more effective. But I only do headphones. Speaker setups may benefit with 2 layer as that's what was also my setup was when I had seperates.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jul 13, 2022)

On the subject of protecting a piece of kit from vibration, I think there are two ways to go: isolation or inertia. 

Either you directly attempt to isolate the kit from vibration - this involves absorbent feet of some kind or suspending the device in the manner of a good turntable.

Or you directly spike the kit to a large inert mass which cannot vibrate such as a concrete floor or a very rigid and massive stand. This is my preference. 

In both cases I think extra mileage can be had by stiffening, damping, and mass-loading the casework of the device. In Chord kit this is already largely done.


----------



## 801evan

SteveHulk said:


> On the subject of protecting a piece of kit from vibration, I think there are two ways to go: isolation or inertia.
> 
> Either you directly attempt to isolate the kit from vibration - this involves absorbent feet of some kind or suspending the device in the manner of a good turntable.
> 
> ...


I used pumice stones to 'decouple' the shelf from the stands. A tip from circa 2005. Lol


----------



## Ards

801evan said:


> How's the difference with the two layer vs one? I've tried this but found tacky sorbothane on the device alone is more effective. But I only do headphones. Speaker setups may benefit with 2 layer as that's what was also my setup was when I had seperates.


I never did any subjective listening tests with the two tiers - I just took vibration measurements - and the two tier had lower readings.  Was also more practical as it allows me to spread the weight of some of the heavier items on my rack.  Sorry I couldn't provide deeper insight.


----------



## 801evan

Ards said:


> I never did any subjective listening tests with the two tiers - I just took vibration measurements - and the two tier had lower readings.  Was also more practical as it allows me to spread the weight of some of the heavier items on my rack.  Sorry I couldn't provide deeper insight.


Oh that's sufficient info esp with the vibration measurement to verify.


----------



## dusty.ro

For those who use the SRC-DX with the Dave: do you get noise when switching from a higher sample rate to a lower one? From 192 to 44.1 for example. 
My setup is this: Roon on M1 Mac Mini -> SOtM sMS-200 ultra neo -> usb cable -> SRC-DX -> dual bnc cables -> Dave. It does the same if I add the MScaler in between the SRC-DX and the Dave.
I fix the problem by pausing the music, waiting 3 seconds and restarting the playback. I can set Roon to upsample to 192 and this will keep the issue from happening since there is no sample rate change, but it introduces clipping and I have to set the headroom correction to -3db which I hate doing. 

I'm wondering if this issue is known and if there is a solution. Thanks!


----------



## genefruit

dusty.ro said:


> For those who use the SRC-DX with the Dave: do you get noise when switching from a higher sample rate to a lower one? From 192 to 44.1 for example.
> My setup is this: Roon on M1 Mac Mini -> SOtM sMS-200 ultra neo -> usb cable -> SRC-DX -> dual bnc cables -> Dave. It does the same if I add the MScaler in between the SRC-DX and the Dave.
> I fix the problem by pausing the music, waiting 3 seconds and restarting the playback. I can set Roon to upsample to 192 and this will keep the issue from happening since there is no sample rate change, but it introduces clipping and I have to set the headroom correction to -3db which I hate doing.
> 
> I'm wondering if this issue is known and if there is a solution. Thanks!


try setting Roon to 2000ms resync delay


----------



## dusty.ro (Jul 13, 2022)

genefruit said:


> try setting Roon to 2000ms resync delay


This does not work because Roon doesn't stop the signal. The signal path indicator in Roon is stil blue after switching tracks (and waiting for those 2000ms), and as long as it's blue, the noise can be heard. The reason pausing works is because after about 4-5 seconds Roon stops the signal. Even 10000ms doesn't fix the problem because Roon doesn't stop the signal while it's waiting.


----------



## adrianm

dusty.ro said:


> For those who use the SRC-DX with the Dave: do you get noise when switching from a higher sample rate to a lower one? From 192 to 44.1 for example.
> My setup is this: Roon on M1 Mac Mini -> SOtM sMS-200 ultra neo -> usb cable -> SRC-DX -> dual bnc cables -> Dave. It does the same if I add the MScaler in between the SRC-DX and the Dave.
> I fix the problem by pausing the music, waiting 3 seconds and restarting the playback. I can set Roon to upsample to 192 and this will keep the issue from happening since there is no sample rate change, but it introduces clipping and I have to set the headroom correction to -3db which I hate doing.
> 
> I'm wondering if this issue is known and if there is a solution. Thanks!


It's a compatibility issue with the SOTM streamer and the SRC-DX drivers. This is why I didn't purchase it despite auditioning 3 times. And why I'm still using my pc as a streamer while waiting for the new IFI Neo streamer that supposedly does 768 khz. No fix from SOTM sadly, it's a known issue.



dusty.ro said:


> My setup is this: Roon on M1 Mac Mini -> SOtM sMS-200 ultra neo -> usb cable -> SRC-DX -> dual bnc cables -> Dave


I'm surprised this even works for you, I assume you're not up-sampling using Hqplayer. It was unusable for me in this configuration. Loud static and couldn't get anything to play despite multiple restarts after connecting the cables.


----------



## dusty.ro

adrianm said:


> I'm surprised this even works for you, I assume you're not up-sampling using Hqplayer. It was unusable for me in this configuration. Loud static and couldn't get anything to play despite multiple restarts after connecting the cables.


I am not upsampling. If I am then there is no issue since the sample rate never changes so it does not confuse sotm/src-dx.



adrianm said:


> It's a compatibility issue with the SOTM streamer and the SRC-DX drivers. This is why I didn't purchase it despite auditioning 3 times. And why I'm still using my pc as a streamer while waiting for the new IFI Neo streamer that supposedly does 768 khz. No fix from SOTM sadly, it's a known issue.


That's such a shame. I like both when they work. Don't know which one to give up.


----------



## adrianm

dusty.ro said:


> That's such a shame. I like both when they work. Don't know which one to give up.


I'd say plug your mac into a power conditioner and compare it to the Ifi streamer. Src-dx +hqp made me get rid of the M-scaler + Mind2 streamer. No regrets. A new streamer will come along soon enough. Hell, Innuos is preparing one with an integrated Phoenix USB. I can't wait to compare it to the Ifi Neo Zen stream.


----------



## zen87192

adrianm said:


> Hell, Innuos is preparing one with an integrated Phoenix USB. I can't wait to compare it to the Ifi Neo Zen stream.


I'm on that Innuos Pulsar already... got my name down for a demo the day it's available.. sometime in September I believe. It does look to be interesting.


----------



## Hiker816

Ards said:


> I just took vibration measurements


What did you use to take the vibration measurements?  I'd be curious to do the same with my gear.  Thanks!


----------



## GryphonGuy (Jul 13, 2022)

dusty.ro said:


> For those who use the SRC-DX with the Dave: do you get noise when switching from a higher sample rate to a lower one? From 192 to 44.1 for example.
> My setup is this: Roon on M1 Mac Mini -> SOtM sMS-200 ultra neo -> usb cable -> SRC-DX -> dual bnc cables -> Dave. It does the same if I add the MScaler in between the SRC-DX and the Dave.
> I fix the problem by pausing the music, waiting 3 seconds and restarting the playback. I can set Roon to upsample to 192 and this will keep the issue from happening since there is no sample rate change, but it introduces clipping and I have to set the headroom correction to -3db which I hate doing.
> 
> I'm wondering if this issue is known and if there is a solution. Thanks!



I use the SRC-DX without SOTM gear. My chain is PC, Sablon Evo USB, SRC-DX, Double-shielded studio BNC cables and Finally DAVE. I have no problems when changing clock rates but I also tend to listen to locally based music all at the same rate (I rarely stream direct from the internet).

Any DSP done by Roon RUINS or DESTROYS the soundstage and music enjoyment in my system. So I NEVER use DSP in Roon. The complaints around Roon sound are about its DSP in all cases that I have read, the high praise of Roon seems to come from those, like me, who have DSP turned off in Roon. Of course YMMV.

Regards
GG


----------



## Ards

Hiker816 said:


> What did you use to take the vibration measurements?  I'd be curious to do the same with my gear.  Thanks!


Simplest approach is to use an Android phone's accelerometer.  There are some good apps for that.   Note that some phones/apps are more accurate than others and you want to get down to as low a resolution as possible.  Once I hit the limit on my phone to detect vibration, and wanted to explore more, I picked up a dedicated accelerometer with even more resolution. It's in storage right now so I'll have to dig it out for the exact details but it looks very similar to this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/14012034695


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 14, 2022)

GryphonGuy said:


> Any DSP done by Roon RUINS or DESTROYS the soundstage and music enjoyment in my system.



Thats why i mostly only listen to (preferably self) ripped RBCD's. Using Wasapi with F2K or Jriver.. all DSP including volume attenuation off.


----------



## 801evan

Rob Watts said:


> It is absolutely nothing like the PGGB files I heard early on. IMHO PGGB is very much the wrong approach, and when I heard the test files I said they sound like apodizing filters, which seriously damage transient time reconstruction. Problem is some like the soft bloated bass from apodizing, as they prefer the timing problems. And when the website went live they claimed it was an apodizing filter. It doesn't matter if it's 10 taps or 10 billion taps - apodizing is the wrong approach.


Man. This is the best thing I've read all week and explains the sonic issues of PGGB. PGGB sonic issues does remind me of the apodizing filter on Topping DACs.


----------



## LucyWu

801evan said:


> Man. This is the best thing I've read all week and explains the sonic issues of PGGB. PGGB sonic issues does remind me of the apodizing filter on Topping DACs.


I don't want to crap on this Chord thread but PGGB files into my Dave sound nothing as described here.


----------



## miketlse

LucyWu said:


> I don't want to crap on this Chord thread but PGGB files into my Dave sound nothing as described here.


Feel free to use this forum instead. It was created by @musickid for just that type of 'not official chord but interesting to chord owners' discussions.


----------



## 801evan

LucyWu said:


> I don't want to crap on this Chord thread but PGGB files into my Dave sound nothing as described here.


Hmm. Consider getting a AOC USB cable like from mobix labs and have it before an src dx. It's one of the best things that make A/Bing a whole lot easier and making the right choice. You need pair it with an ultrashort like an Uptone USPCB (200hours break in). Add an ifi idefender on the upstream. It makes comparison on how HMS is much more deeper than what PGGB or HQplayer provides and makes more obvious the timing, soundstage and timbre issues of PGGB.


----------



## LucyWu

801evan said:


> Hmm. Consider getting a AOC USB cable like from mobix labs and have it before an src dx. It's one of the best things that make A/Bing a whole lot easier and making the right choice. You need pair it with an ultrashort like an Uptone USPCB (200hours break in). Add an ifi idefender on the upstream. It makes comparison on how HMS is much more deeper than what PGGB or HQplayer provides and makes more obvious the timing, soundstage and timbre issues of PGGB.


Hmmmm - patronising, aren't we.. I disagree wiith your worldview so I must be an ingenue who needs to have his view corrected. Sorry - no.

I use the SRC.DX - necessary because it yields better results than the inbuilt Dave USB. I use (admittedly only recently purchased) a Sablon Evo USB cable, I have an optimised pc transport with linear supplies, and many years of experience gained in big grown up recording studios to educate my ears well enough to evaluate what I hear. And I have a clear view of what I am aiming for in my little replay system.

That leads me to conclude that your expectations and experiences differ significantly from mine. That's fine, I hope your approach makes you happy. But for me, my aproach brings me closer to the music, which is what this is about. Rob's published views differ from my own in some areas, but I don't think he'll be along with a list of things I need to buy to align my experience with his. 

Rob shares his time and experience. You share yours and I share mine - that's what this community is for. We don't need to agree, but I don't need you to tell me what I do and don't need to do.


----------



## 801evan (Jul 15, 2022)

LucyWu said:


> Hmmmm - patronising, aren't we.. I disagree wiith your worldview so I must be an ingenue who needs to have his view corrected. Sorry - no.
> 
> I use the SRC.DX - necessary because it yields better results than the inbuilt Dave USB. I use (admittedly only recently purchased) a Sablon Evo USB cable, I have an optimised pc transport with linear supplies, and many years of experience gained in big grown up recording studios to educate my ears well enough to evaluate what I hear. And I have a clear view of what I am aiming for in my little replay system.
> 
> ...


Its fine if you find it patronizing, but that's not my intention.  AOC USB cables help cut down the noise a lot where any traditional USB cables can't because it uses optical fiber on the data lines. It's as simple as that. My setup already gives PGGB, HQplayer the edge because MQA, Hi-Res and CD playback sound better than having HMS in the chain. However, PGGB and HQplayer still can't get ahead of HMS despite this when used on the same streamer, and what's telltale is that the rest of the setup gives a deeper sound. PGGB is still lifted in the blacks yet loose on the bass, exactly as Rob Watts said. And yes, the timing, flow and timbre is oddly off on the PGGB files. Point being, its harder to hear the lower distortion and deeper presentation of HMS, MQA and such if there's something in the chain that is noisy.

Anyways, no one has put it in the perspective Rob Watts gave that's why I appreciated it highly and one can consider my posts as sharing and comparing to their setup. Because it is indeed rare to see people not like PGGB and I couldn't find an explanation of whats going on if PGGB happens to sound worse.


----------



## skootb

i haven't followed every post...why does this thread seem to say the xlr output of the dave is "inferior?"


----------



## 801evan

skootb said:


> i haven't followed every post...why does this thread seem to say the xlr output of the dave is "inferior?"


Simply because it's not a true balanced architecture. It just has an op amp doing invert polarity.


----------



## SteveHulk

I think "balancing" is an analogue concept which is an effort to reduce the effect of external noise entering an analogue audio chain.

The basic idea is splitting an analogue signal into two signals and inverting one signal with respect to the other before transmission. If noise happens on the transmission line (interconnect) then both the signals are modified by the noise in the same way.

At the receiving end the inverted signal is inverted again and then added to the other non-inverted signal.

In this way the noise is combined with an inverted version of itself and so the two noise waveforms tend to cancel each other out. The two signals are now back in the same phase and reinforce each other. They do not cancel out.

In a fully balanced system you need not only separate processing for left and right as usual, but also for inverted and non-inverted in each case.

Now you have four independent chains in the system between the source, where the splitting first occurs to the power amp outputs where the inverted and non-inverted signals obviously have to be recombined.

Remember that this is a purely analogue system so far.

If there is a digital link in the chain, such as a DAC, then it would have to have four channels with four independent DAC processors.

If such a device is hit by noise then it is by no means obvious to me that the effect on the four signals will result in the simple effect on which the idea of analogue balancing rests.

Therefore the balanced input of the DAVE must recombine the signals before processing, and the balanced output of the DAVE must split them again. The inverting op amps are simply the way this is done. 

The only benefit of balancing here is that the input cable is balanced. Even though it carries a digital signal, for the purposes of balancing it can be successfully treated as an analogue signal. I do not think the DAVE itself can be sensibly balanced.

If this is a load of 💩 then by all means have at it. Just try to be polite! 👍🏼


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 15, 2022)

skootb said:


> i haven't followed every post...why does this thread seem to say the xlr output of the dave is "inferior?"


To add to @801evan..
As Rob explained with adding of the negative polarity opamp for XLR the signal passes through extra circuitry loosing a tiny bit of transparency.

But some specially balanced built amps perform significantly better using balanced input than using their single ended input and this then outweights the transparency benefit on those particular units


----------



## BassicScience

My Favorite Article Explaining Balanced, Differential, Etc.

There are highlighted "Take-home Messages" for those not interested in reading the entire text.


----------



## muski

801evan said:


>


Mine arrived today. Any suggestions on how best to use it? Would you mind posting a photo of your wrapping technique?  Thanks!


----------



## 801evan

muski said:


> Mine arrived today. Any suggestions on how best to use it? Would you mind posting a photo of your wrapping technique?  Thanks!


I just plop it down with the way it was folded from the package. I was supposed to build a faraday cage around my listening area but I haven't made the fence yet so I'm doing it this way for now.


----------



## muski

801evan said:


> I just plop it down with the way it was folded from the package. I was supposed to build a faraday cage around my listening area but I haven't made the fence yet so I'm doing it this way for now.


Thanks!


----------



## 801evan (Jul 16, 2022)

how timely. Hans has the same sentiments I do.

1. He prefers MQA to the Dave. Even if he's using Roon. Roon is not that transparent and it's way of handling MQA isn't that great too vs Zen Stream or even UAPP but then UAPP is just in Android phones and is limited by the consumer level quality of the phone. Perhaps the Grimm is just that good to make up for the issues of Roon.

edit: okay I saw the mu1 review and I can see how it takes away the poor effects of Roon.

2. He too finds methods like PGGB will give a robotic sound! This is exactly why I find HMS superior to pggb and HQplayer. Further validating ppl who find PGGB better just doesn't have a more optimized chain. It's also why HMS is one of the best choices if the upstream chain is not optimized. It's also why one will hit a threshold where a good transport can just go straight to the Dave with just 44.1.

3. The perceived SQ improvements of Hi-Res is on lower quality DACs. End of the day, CDT with a good psu will trump Hi-Res file.

4. Measurements doesnt correlate to what we hear.


----------



## ZappaMan

what is cdt?


----------



## 801evan

ZappaMan said:


> what is cdt?


CD transport.


----------



## Ards

801evan said:


> End of the day, CDT with a good psu will trump Hi-Res file.


There's clearly a race condition here.  All things being equal, high resolution should sound better than 44.1.  Problems with 44.1 are well understood; problems that higher resolutions solve.  But when things aren't equal (eg degradation in either delivery chain) then one can  leapfrog the other.  

A local source, such as a CD transport is a great sanity check for the streaming side of any system.  If the CD sounds better, it suggests there's more work to be done on the streaming side.


----------



## Triode User

Ards said:


> A local source, such as a CD transport is a great sanity check for the streaming side of any system. If the CD sounds better, it suggests there's more work to be done on the streaming side.


Yes to this and Rob Watts always suggested using the Blu mk2 as a test against streamed or ripped files to judge how good that system was against a low noise CD player.


----------



## ZappaMan (Jul 16, 2022)

Triode User said:


> Yes to this and Rob Watts always suggested using the Blu mk2 as a test against streamed or ripped files to judge how good that system was against a low noise CD player.


Are there any suggestions for “cheap” CD player components, and cheap meaning, as cheap as possible. Would a £50 Walkman style CD player on batteries be good?

Cambridge audio cxc seems good.


----------



## 801evan

ZappaMan said:


> Are there any suggestions for “cheap” CD player components, and cheap meaning, as cheap as possible. Would a £50 Walkman style CD player on batteries be good?


No. Poor clock. And reliance on battery is also bad.


----------



## zen87192 (Jul 16, 2022)

Yes! Now we're talking! Farad Super 3's installed in to DAVE. Very enjoyable job it was too!
What does it sound like? Absolutely awesome! I was toying with the idea of EQ'ing my LCD-5's but no need... everything is now brilliant and and can only get better after several hundred hours of use. The synergy of my audio equipment must also have something to do with it as well. It's exactly what I want to hear without any overbearing Trebles or Bass. Spot on for for mid range as well... it's as though it was meant to be.... in my system anyway.... and for my hearing. Can't believe my luck with the coincidental upgrade of this power supply and the 'gelling' of my LCD-5's. Perfect.
The install was a breeze. Removal and replacement of the internals proved to be simple. Also gave me the chance to remove some dust under the DAVE's glass display which was there from new! Working methodically I don't think anyone will have a problem with this upgrade installation of which I highly recommend DAVE owners to obtain. No doubt owners of the SJ ARC6 DC4 will state its superior.... probably is.... but for my money... which doesn't stretch as far as the ARC6.... this is a stunner of an upgrade!


----------



## SteveHulk

zen87192 said:


> Yes! Now we're talking! Farad Super 3's installed in to DAVE. Very enjoyable job it was too!
> What does it sound like? Absolutely awesome! I was toying with the idea of EQ'ing my LCD-5's but no need... everything is now brilliant and and can only get better after several hundred hours of use. The synergy of my audio equipment must also have something to do with it as well. It's exactly what I want to hear without any overbearing Trebles or Bass. Spot on for for mid range as well... it's as though it was meant to be.... in my system anyway.... and for my hearing. Can't believe my luck with the coincidental upgrade of this power supply and the 'gelling' of my LCD-5's. Perfect.
> The install was a breeze. Removal and replacement of the internals proved to be simple. Also gave me the chance to remove some dust under the DAVE's glass display which was there from new! Working methodically I don't think anyone will have a problem with this upgrade installation of which I highly recommend DAVE owners to obtain. No doubt owners of the SJ ARC6 will DC4 will state its superior.... probably is.... but for my money... which doesn't stretch as far as the ARC6.... this is a stunner of an upgrade!


Good job mate 👍🏼 Even better result 👌🏼

Also good to see you don't have any bad caps there!


----------



## dusty.ro

zen87192 said:


> Yes! Now we're talking! Farad Super 3's installed in to DAVE. Very enjoyable job it was too!
> What does it sound like? Absolutely awesome! I was toying with the idea of EQ'ing my LCD-5's but no need... everything is now brilliant and and can only get better after several hundred hours of use. The synergy of my audio equipment must also have something to do with it as well. It's exactly what I want to hear without any overbearing Trebles or Bass. Spot on for for mid range as well... it's as though it was meant to be.... in my system anyway.... and for my hearing. Can't believe my luck with the coincidental upgrade of this power supply and the 'gelling' of my LCD-5's. Perfect.
> The install was a breeze. Removal and replacement of the internals proved to be simple. Also gave me the chance to remove some dust under the DAVE's glass display which was there from new! Working methodically I don't think anyone will have a problem with this upgrade installation of which I highly recommend DAVE owners to obtain. No doubt owners of the SJ ARC6 DC4 will state its superior.... probably is.... but for my money... which doesn't stretch as far as the ARC6.... this is a stunner of an upgrade!


Excelent stuff! Congrats on the install and thank you for the step by step pictures.


----------



## Paul Bjernklo (Jul 16, 2022)

ZappaMan said:


> Are there any suggestions for “cheap” CD player components, and cheap meaning, as cheap as possible. Would a £50 Walkman style CD player on batteries be good?
> 
> Cambridge audio cxc seems good.
> 
> ...


----------



## Triode User

zen87192 said:


> No doubt owners of the SJ ARC6 DC4 will state its superior.... probably is.... but for my money... which doesn't stretch as far as the ARC6.... this is a stunner of an upgrade!


I am pleased you are enjoying the LPS. As I have said before, my only experience is comparing the Farad with the Qutest and then it was pretty much on a par with the Sean Jacobs DC3 which is possibly a fair bit cheaper. The Dc4 was quite an advance over the Farad but I did not compare the ARC6 which is some way beyond the DC4.

One day we will all be able to get in the same room with this kit and have some fun comparing it. Until then, keep enjoying the music. 😄


----------



## zen87192 (Jul 17, 2022)

Deleted.


----------



## nwavesailor

zen87192 said:


> Yes! Now we're talking! Farad Super 3's installed in to DAVE. Very enjoyable job it was too!
> What does it sound like? Absolutely awesome! I was toying with the idea of EQ'ing my LCD-5's but no need... everything is now brilliant and and can only get better after several hundred hours of use. The synergy of my audio equipment must also have something to do with it as well. It's exactly what I want to hear without any overbearing Trebles or Bass. Spot on for for mid range as well... it's as though it was meant to be.... in my system anyway.... and for my hearing. Can't believe my luck with the coincidental upgrade of this power supply and the 'gelling' of my LCD-5's. Perfect.
> The install was a breeze. Removal and replacement of the internals proved to be simple. Also gave me the chance to remove some dust under the DAVE's glass display which was there from new! Working methodically I don't think anyone will have a problem with this upgrade installation of which I highly recommend DAVE owners to obtain. No doubt owners of the SJ ARC6 DC4 will state its superior.... probably is.... but for my money... which doesn't stretch as far as the ARC6.... this is a stunner of an upgrade!


I am not questioning that the Farad is a very nice step up for the Dave. 

What I am not excited about is adding 3 more boxes and cords to my 24" x 24"  table with the Dave, M Scaler, Bigger Ben or Envy amp. I understand the different voltages and seperate PS just not wanting a stack of 3 more chassis.


----------



## Reactcore

zen87192 said:


> Yes! Now we're talking! Farad Super 3's installed in to DAVE.


👍 Congrats mate! Many happy listening hours comin

Im still patiently awaiting the arrival of the components to make my supercap precharger

It will test my theory that its the SJ and Farad current reserves in their caps that give the performance boost. Not so much net RF filtering


----------



## adrianm

Reactcore said:


> It will test my theory that its the SJ and Farad current reserves in their caps that give the performance boost. Not so much net RF filtering


As someone who uses a mains filter + a power regenerator plugged into it and has seen massive performance gains from them, both in separation, and cumulatively, I would disagree. That said, I'm sure the extra current reserves would help as well.



nwavesailor said:


> I am not questioning that the Farad is a very nice step up for the Dave.
> 
> What I am not excited about is adding 3 more boxes and cords to my 24" x 24"  table with the Dave, M Scaler, Bigger Ben or Envy amp. I understand the different voltages and seperate PS just not wanting a stack of 3 more chassis.


Same boat, I care what it sounds like up to a point, after that, I care what it looks like more. Did you get to buy the Envy amp? I'm also considering it. Curious what it's like with Dave


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 17, 2022)

adrianm said:


> As someone who uses a mains filter + a power regenerator plugged into it and has seen massive performance gains from them, both in separation, and cumulatively, I would disagree. That said, I'm sure the extra current reserves would help as well.


Oh im not saying that RF filtering dont give benefit.. just that SJ and Farad are aiming on clean steady voltage with current reserve.. your filters are aiming at the RF.

Thats why i have designed a Battery setup replacing the SMPS of Dave.. but havent ordered the batteries and components yet.

I first work out the Supercap option followed by a dual 850nm optical Mscaler link.

The fibers are already waiting..


----------



## adrianm

Reactcore said:


> SJ and Farad are aiming on clean steady voltage with current reserve.. your filters are aiming at the RF.


Actually the Genesis one has 2 torroidal psu's which completely regenerate the sine wave with a 0.3% delta. So it's the same thing really, however adding a passive RF filter in front of it still improves things.


----------



## zen87192

DAVE now on Model 2 Vibrapod's .... Wow! Wasn't expecting that 😳 Bass has tightened up and become more full in delivery. All because of these 'Pods... 'Well I never!'


----------



## SteveHulk

I've remarked before on the benefits of good vibration isolation even for digital devices. 

In particular, I have noticed over the years that reducing vibration in digital devices systematically has had the effect of stabilising the bass - rendering it more firm, distinct, defined, articulate, and tuneful, even gaining some extension.

Organ music is a great way of sussing out these kinds of changes. I don't really mean Bach, which is properly played on the small chapel organs prevalent in his day, but the massive complex chords of eg Messiaen on a thundering monster organ such as that in Liverpool Cathedral. 

Spiking, sorbothanes, suspension; casework damping, stiffening, and mass-loading are all techniques that can be deployed to great effect.

For each device the stratagy must be clear: isolation or inertia. If you choose to mix them then I think you must be very certain about what you are doing.


----------



## 801evan

Reactcore said:


> It will test my theory that its the SJ and Farad current reserves in their caps that give the performance boost. Not so much net RF filtering





adrianm said:


> As someone who uses a mains filter + a power regenerator plugged into it and has seen massive performance gains from them, both in separation, and cumulatively, I would disagree. That said, I'm sure the extra current reserves would help as well.


I'm with adrianm on this one. If a device needs to pull, it'll pull via mains. Caps are there for smoothening and too many can be hurtful than helpful.


----------



## Reactcore

Actually i will be trying to do the same as in TT2. There its used the same type of caps to power the amp ..so much it can even drive speakers directly.. but thats not my usecase

They act more as a battery than capacitor


----------



## SteveHulk (Jul 17, 2022)

When the going gets tough, the first actual "pull" in a device is from the dc power rails within the device.

The device's psu sits between these rails and the mains.

If the psu cannot deal with the pull without the voltages on the power rails sagging then that's when the problems start. The ability of the mains to deliver power becomes irrelevant as the psu is now a bottleneck.

Providing the psu with extra capacitance enables it to hold the rail voltages up when the internals of the device suddenly demand more power.

Capacitors in a psu therefore can have one of at least two functions: as part of a passive LC filter to suppress ripple, or as an energy reserve to support short-term power demands.

Capacitors are expensive components. When requirements such as quality, increasing capacitance value and voltage range, and higher temperature resistance are specified the cost of each rockets.

When the psu "haircut" to reduce device cost is applied then capacitors are an obvious target for savings.

This is one reason why replacing the stock psu with a highly-specified psu very often results in startling sq jumps.


----------



## nwavesailor

adrianm said:


> Same boat, I care what it sounds like up to a point, after that, I care what it looks like more. Did you get to buy the Envy amp? I'm also considering it. Curious what it's like with Dave


Envy should arrive Monday!


----------



## SteveHulk

zen87192 said:


> DAVE now on Model 2 Vibrapod's .... Wow! Wasn't expecting that 😳 Bass has tightened up and become more full in delivery. All because of these 'Pods... 'Well I never!'


Will you try pods under your other devices as well?

More benefits are probably there to be had.


----------



## zen87192

SteveHulk said:


> Will you try pods under your other devices as well?
> 
> More benefits are probably there to be had.


Definitely. Just gathering weight details of my other components and placing an order this evening.


----------



## adrianm

zen87192 said:


> DAVE now on Model 2 Vibrapod's .... Wow! Wasn't expecting that 😳 Bass has tightened up and become more full in delivery. All because of these 'Pods... 'Well I never!'


Just to be clear, is this in a speaker or a headphone usage context?


----------



## alxw0w

zen87192 said:


> DAVE now on Model 2 Vibrapod's .... Wow! Wasn't expecting that 😳 Bass has tightened up and become more full in delivery. All because of these 'Pods... 'Well I never!'


So now I really want to try vibrapods, price seems to be very reasonable.


----------



## zen87192

adrianm said:


> Just to be clear, is this in a speaker or a headphone usage context?


Headphone only.... I use KEF L60's as my speaker system which totally separate from my Headphone system.


----------



## Reactcore

SteveHulk said:


> When the going gets tough, the first actual "pull" in a device is from the dc power rails within the device.
> 
> The device's psu sits between these rails and the mains.
> 
> ...


Exactly my point 👍 good explained.

I dont want the OP rails voltage to get in the least modulated with the output signal


----------



## Triode User

Reactcore said:


> Im still patiently awaiting the arrival of the components to make my supercap precharger
> 
> It will test my theory that its the SJ and Farad current reserves in their caps that give the performance boost. Not so much net RF filtering


I look forward to your thoughts when you have tried it. I think it is possible that there are several aspects to these power supplies that make them sound different. I have not experimented with what you are doing with Dave (ie supercaps) but  I have recently experimented with capacitors located close to the load within the Dave. There were surprising results revealed by doing this which makes me think that the tack you are taking may not ultimately be the best for sound quality with the Dave. For example I got to the point of listening to quite a few caps of the same stated value (and they measured about the same) but from different manufacturers. The sound of Dave with each was quite different.

By the way are you doing the same with the digital circuit in Dave? For my money that is at least as dependant as the analogue stages and reacts very clearly to all sorts of aspects of the power supply.


----------



## Reactcore

Triode User said:


> By the way are you doing the same with the digital circuit in Dave? For my money that is at least as dependant as the analogue stages and reacts very clearly to all sorts of aspects of the power supply.


Not with the supercaps.. this aims on Dave's amp only.

Later i will build my battery supply for 5v and +/-15v. I have my design ready.
This will take it away from the net RF and take switching out.


----------



## Triode User

Reactcore said:


> Not with the supercaps.. this aims on Dave's amp only.
> 
> Later i will build my battery supply for 5v and +/-15v. I have my design ready.
> This will take it away from the net RF and take switching out.


It will be interesting even if I suspect your faith is supercaps is misplaced. Are you going in this direction because of wanting to use headphones? I never use headphones so perhaps that accounts for my different point of view?

Did you see this battery project to power Dave?
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...dio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=1149407


----------



## Reactcore

Triode User said:


> It will be interesting even if I suspect your faith is supercaps is misplaced. Are you going in this direction because of wanting to use headphones? I never use headphones so perhaps that accounts for my different point of view?
> 
> Did you see this battery project to power Dave?
> https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...dio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=1149407


Nice read. It confirms my take on the importance of having low ESR.

But ..as low the impedance of a outboard PSU might be.. itll need to pass through a cable, Daves molex, PCB tracks and ultimately the LM regulator.. significantly adding to this resistance..

Thats why i go to the end of the chain and apply them directly over the OP transistors

People say Dave's amp lacks 'dynamic power' compared to the best external ones.. but is best for transparency.. so i try to improve it by feeding it more stable voltage

The digital part im not touching as of yet


----------



## maxh22

Has Rob heard Dave with any aftermarket power supply’s? What were his thoughts if he has ?


----------



## muski

zen87192 said:


> DAVE now on Model 2 Vibrapod's .... Wow! Wasn't expecting that 😳 Bass has tightened up and become more full in delivery. All because of these 'Pods... 'Well I never!'


Crazy, huh? That’s how I felt. The cones take it even a little bit further.


----------



## Triode User

Reactcore said:


> Nice read. It confirms my take on the importance of having low ESR.
> 
> But ..as low the impedance of a outboard PSU might be.. itll need to pass through a cable, Daves molex, PCB tracks and ultimately the LM regulator.. significantly adding to this resistance..
> 
> ...


With my various cap experiments the lowest ESR were the worst sounding of all the different manufacturer offerings that I tried. Initially they were of the ‘oh, wow’ category (life like detail, realism, best soundstage, more slam etc) but more rigorous listening revealed detail masking noise induced artefacts. My listening companion was trying to convince me the very low ESR caps were the best Dave sound he had heard but he soon relented when I demonstrated others without all those fatigue inducing aspects.

It would be good if you could compare various makes of supercaps to see if you get the variations in sound that I expect.


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 18, 2022)

Triode User said:


> It would be good if you could compare various makes of supercaps to see if you get the variations in sound that I expect.


I assume you tried them on the molex power input?

Sadly i dont have many on hand. When i worked as a repair engineer i had access to a storehouse full of components.. not to mention professional measurement equipment. Now im waiting on China shipments

Lets first see how they compare to those 85° 470uF stock ones (which will stay there but with the 5F ones parallel over them)


----------



## Rob Watts

SteveHulk said:


> When the going gets tough, the first actual "pull" in a device is from the dc power rails within the device.
> 
> The device's psu sits between these rails and the mains.
> 
> ...



Your explanation is just plain wrong. Do you think I do not know what I am doing? The PSU interaction with signal related currents is complicated and is a significant source of distortion and SQ issues - all of which has been designed for and accommodated with Dave. Dave would not show the extraordinary low levels of distortion if I had not completely eliminated this issue. 

Dave PSU interactions is complex, but is dominated by the very low impedance linear regulator, and the amp PSU rejection ratio. If you were to use a DCA Stealth at -3dB (way too loud) the HP would be drawing 130 mA. It's easy to calculate the PSU induced error from the amp and linear regulator and that comes out at -198dB. That is negligible compared to the distortion of the output stage, which is a thousand times greater than this, and considering this error would induce simple harmonic distortion only, you could consider it as inaudible so not a problem.

But this error at -198dB is just from the linear regulator, and is nothing to do with the supplied SMPS. What is the error from that? Worst case it comes out at -234dB, or 66 times smaller a problem. So your argument relies on hearing an error that is 66,000 times smaller than the distortion in the output stage?

Like I keep saying - it's the RF noise characteristics that changes the SQ with PSUs. And in my experience, SMPS offers lower random RF noise than a linear PSU, as they do not have RF filters built in.


----------



## chesebert (Jul 18, 2022)

maxh22 said:


> Has Rob heard Dave with any aftermarket power supply’s? What were his thoughts if he has ?


Rob believes SMPS is the best tech for Chord dacs. I agree with him that if well implemented SMPS has higher performance and lower noise than LPS. All my dacs use SMPS. Could Dave be improved with a purpose built SMPS and not using an off the shelf part intended for medical instruments? Possibly.


----------



## adrianm

Rob Watts said:


> Like I keep saying - it's the RF noise characteristics that changes the SQ with PSUs. And in my experience, SMPS offers lower random RF noise than a linear PSU, as they do not have RF filters built in.


Tested this with Dave and M-scaler and completely agree. Though I might have had other issues with the M-scaler, it sounded better with the stock psu than the Farad, and better still run off a battery. Despite popular opinions.


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> As someone who uses a mains filter + a power regenerator plugged into it and has seen massive performance gains from them, both in separation, and cumulatively


Just on this, I have singularly failed to be impressed by any power regenerators I have tried, including some costing near the thick end of 10k. All seemed to give a slight hardness to the top end and all injected electrical noise back into the mains wall sockets. On the other hand what they did do very well is to tame my high mains voltage (250V) which was making my 845 valve amps run a bit too near their limits for my liking. When I got my ss amps the regenerators were sold and replaced by a 3KVA balanced mains transformer to run all my system from it with no need for any additional filters.


----------



## 801evan (Jul 18, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> Dave PSU interactions is complex, but is dominated by the very low impedance linear regulator, and the amp PSU rejection ratio. If you were to use a DCA Stealth at -3dB (way too loud) the HP would be drawing 130 mA. It's easy to calculate the PSU induced error from the amp and linear regulator and that comes out at -198dB. That is negligible compared to the distortion of the output stage, which is a thousand times greater than this, and considering this error would induce simple harmonic distortion only, you could consider it as inaudible so not a problem.





Rob Watts said:


> Like I keep saying - it's the RF noise characteristics that changes the SQ with PSUs. And in my experience, SMPS offers lower random RF noise than a linear PSU, as they do not have RF filters built in.


I concur on this. Love the sound of the Stealth on stock Dave. I've had many issue with LPS that is aligned with what Rob Watts is saying.

-3dB is Susvara level listening and while Stealth is 3 to 4 clicks lower.


----------



## alxw0w

adrianm said:


> Tested this with Dave and M-scaler and completely agree. Though I might have had other issues with the M-scaler, it sounded better with the stock psu than the Farad, and better still run off a battery. Despite popular opinions.


Lately I've tried powerbank with m scaler against farad3 (again), and I think that I liked sound more.
I need further testing but who knows, I could end using car battery for m scaler


----------



## 801evan

alxw0w said:


> Lately I've tried powerbank with m scaler against farad3 (again), and I think that I liked sound more.
> I need further testing but who knows, I could end using car battery for m scaler


Yes that shows the lack of noise rejection on the psu.



chesebert said:


> Rob believes SMPS is the best tech for Chord dacs. I agree with him that if well implemented SMPS has higher performance and lower noise than LPS. All my dacs use SMPS. Could Dave be improved with a purpose built SMPS and not using an off the shelf part intended for medical instruments? Possibly.


This is exactly why the Ifi Elite can beat the Hypsos and Farad easily. It's a high grade SMPS.


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 18, 2022)

For RF rejection i also believe a SMPS is better equipped by nature cause it has to filter its own generated switching noise to begin with.

Also yes im aware the current draw of a HP is tiny as <150mA.. but in my opinion it cant be wrong to make the rails voltage even more resistant to varying currents no matter how small.

But its a experiment.. i might have to conclude its not audible.

In TT2 its not for nothing this is done too.. 
And i dont think its done specially to drive 8ohm speaker loads


----------



## 801evan

Reactcore said:


> For RF rejection i also believe a SMPS is better equipped by nature cause it has to filter its own generated switching noise to begin with.
> 
> Also yes im aware the current draw of a HP is tiny as <150mA.. but in my opinion it cant be wrong to make the rails voltage even more resistant to varying currents no matter how small.
> 
> But its a experiment.. i might have to conclude its not audible


There's a reason no caps (direct connection) sounds so good with ifi icans beating amps 4x their price.just give it $$$ psu.

Modded mine with full carbon fiber chassis


----------



## SteveHulk

Rob Watts said:


> Your explanation is just plain wrong. Do you think I do not know what I am doing? The PSU interaction with signal related currents is complicated and is a significant source of distortion and SQ issues - all of which has been designed for and accommodated with Dave. Dave would not show the extraordinary low levels of distortion if I had not completely eliminated this issue.
> 
> Dave PSU interactions is complex, but is dominated by the very low impedance linear regulator, and the amp PSU rejection ratio. If you were to use a DCA Stealth at -3dB (way too loud) the HP would be drawing 130 mA. It's easy to calculate the PSU induced error from the amp and linear regulator and that comes out at -198dB. That is negligible compared to the distortion of the output stage, which is a thousand times greater than this, and considering this error would induce simple harmonic distortion only, you could consider it as inaudible so not a problem.
> 
> ...


My comment above was about power supplies in general, not just about DAVE, and is borne out by my experiences with the MF A370 amps I have.

On the subject of DAVE, I don't recall you ever adequately explaining the huge sq increases that are observed by users of the Farad3 and SJ psu solutions.

Do you think we all have tin ears?


----------



## alxw0w

SteveHulk said:


> Do you think we all have tin ears?


The thing is our ears are not the absolute tool.
Our impressions can be fooled easily.


----------



## SteveHulk

alxw0w said:


> The thing is our ears are not the absolute tool.
> Our impressions can be fooled easily.


Are we building audio systems to be listened to by humans, or a roomful of measuring devices?


----------



## alxw0w

SteveHulk said:


> Are we building audio systems to be listened to by humans, or a roomful of measuring devices?


I'm not talking about measurements (not only at least).
I'll give you an example:
Some time ago I tried farad3 with my M Scaler  (and I've been using it sicnce then) - I thought it's better than getting power from powerbank.
Lately I tried just for fun my powerbank again and guess what?

I liked it more. Sound was calmer, bass tighter highs were cleaner sounding, sound with farad was maybe more impressive, but for longer run I preferred power bank - it was less fatiguing.
So what now? Hmmm?
Our ears are not the ultimate tool - unfortunately. Without rigors listening tests and unfortunately measurements we can easily fall into endless loop of changing just a noise profile...


----------



## 801evan

alxw0w said:


> I'm not talking about measurements (not only at least).
> I'll give you an example:
> Some time ago I tried farad3 with my M Scaler  (and I've been using it sicnce then) - I thought it's better than getting power from powerbank.
> Lately I tried just for fun my powerbank again and guess what?
> ...


The battle of dirty battery management system vs dirty big caps. Lol. Man, that reminds me of months of benchmarking nightmares a couple years ago of exactly what you are saying. It wasn't fun...it was side-grading and making a judgement call was tough indeed.


----------



## alxw0w

801evan said:


> It wasn't fun...it was side-grading and making a judgement call was tough indeed.


Exactly this!


----------



## adrianm

alxw0w said:


> Lately I've tried powerbank with m scaler against farad3 (again), and I think that I liked sound more.
> I need further testing but who knows, I could end using car battery for m scaler


I had a 50.000 mah Poweroak battery,which i found to be large enough. They have a wide range of batteries. I know there is no way to really tell what quality the voltage regulators will be, but since it had Panasonic cells I assumed the rest would be equally high quality. I was also doing consulting for Panasonic's energy division at the time so call me biased lol. 2 Years later and I don't notice any degradation though.


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> I had a 50.000 mah Poweroak battery,which i found to be large enough. They have a wide range of batteries. I know there is no way to really tell what quality the voltage regulators will be, but since it had Panasonic cells I assumed the rest would be equally high quality. I was also doing consulting for Panasonic's energy division at the time so call me biased lol. 2 Years later and I don't notice any degradation though.


The issue is the battery management system. All of which aren't geared for audio but for safety and practicability. Then if one uses a step up converter, that just makes for more noise.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> Just on this, I have singularly failed to be impressed by any power regenerators I have tried, including some costing near the thick end of 10k. All seemed to give a slight hardness to the top end and all injected electrical noise back into the mains wall sockets. On the other hand what they did do very well is to tame my high mains voltage (250V) which was making my 845 valve amps run a bit too near their limits for my liking. When I got my ss amps the regenerators were sold and replaced by a 3KVA balanced mains transformer to run all my system from it with no need for any additional filters.


Well that makes sense,. It would explain why I like my Genesis one plugged into the Aquarius.  Though it does use 2 torroidals, which usually have very low leakage.
     FWIW the Genesis is only for source gear that draws less than 100w.. When it detects more than a 100w load it just stops regenerating and becomes a pass through. They recommend passive filters for high current amps, or some crazy transformers at 10k+. Their Mosaic range is pretty nice since you can mix and match the required approach for each component at _slightly_ more palatable prices. 
    I haven't looked into balanced mains transformers thus far.


----------



## Ards

SteveHulk said:


> My comment above was about power supplies in general, not just about DAVE, and is borne out by my experiences with the MF A370 amps I have.
> 
> On the subject of DAVE, I don't recall you ever adequately explaining the huge sq increases that are observed by users of the Farad3 and SJ psu solutions.
> 
> Do you think we all have tin ears?


Would love Rob's take, too, but wouldn't have put the question quite so antagonistically.  Perhaps we can all chip in and pay Rob's petrol costs to get him over to @Triode User for an A/B listen!


----------



## Kentajalli

Rob Watts said:


> Your explanation is just plain wrong. Do you think I do not know what I am doing? The PSU interaction with signal related currents is complicated and is a significant source of distortion and SQ issues - all of which has been designed for and accommodated with Dave. Dave would not show the extraordinary low levels of distortion if I had not completely eliminated this issue.


If I had a DAVE, personally, I would never try to re-engineer the circuit in any way:
1- I trust you and Chord
2- I don't understand it fully
3 - What for? Damn thing measures perfectly already!


Rob Watts said:


> Like I keep saying - it's the RF noise characteristics that changes the SQ with PSUs. And in my experience, SMPS offers lower random RF noise than a linear PSU, as they do not have RF filters built in.


You are correct in that general assertion, however, having glanced at Farad website and read their _Tech Talk _, they do implement RF filters throughout. From input stage, all the way to output. Apart from choice of transformer and rectifying diodes, to three distinct filters, they call _HF filter at pre, intermediate & post _.
They are aware and point a finger at RF noise coming from outside (the mains), and point a finger at ground loop HF noise.

And @Rob Watts ! This is your fault! And possibly together with Chord.
Until you guys come up with a two or three box upgraded _Goliath _(_David _upgraded?), one for PSU, another for Femto clock, people with lots of money burning a hole in their pockets, will experiment like this.

Bottom line, as not an expert that I am!, this Farad 3 external PSU looks nice (& expensive) and must be great fun to use and show off to friends!
Not to mention well-made and implemented.
What benefit it may have, I would not spend my money and time to discover.
For reasons of 1- 2- 3- and the fact that I am not that rich.


----------



## SteveHulk

Ards said:


> Would love Rob's take, too, but wouldn't have put the question quite so antagonistically.  Perhaps we can all chip in and pay Rob's petrol costs to get him over to @Triode User for an A/B listen!


I'm still amazed by this idea that the tiny smps in stock DAVE cannot be bettered, and that people shouldn't even bother trying. 

Whether the circuit being supplied is analogue or digital it still seems to be that an ideal power supply is a constant voltage current source. That is to say it holds the rail voltages absolutely constant no matter what current it has to deliver in order to do so. This ideal clearly implies the absence of any noise whatsoever as this would manifest as a variation of power rail voltage.

Real power supplies are obviously a compromise of this ideal.

How much of a compromise is determined by design choices generally based on cost grounds.

The closer to the ideal the real supply is the more expensive it is, and this is a very steep correlation.

Farad3, SJ ARC6 etc are reaching towards this ideal and the prices of these devices directly reflects how close to the ideal they have come.

The DAVE as stock is a wonderful device and a stunning technical achievement in its own right.

I still think there is untapped quality headroom and Farad3, SJ, and even people's home-grown designs are earnest and respectable attempts to realise this potential.


----------



## Kentajalli

SteveHulk said:


> Are we building audio systems to be listened to by humans, or a roomful of measuring devices?


Certain devices can almost fully be objectively measured, a power supply, an amplifier, a filter network  . . . . 
Remember, people in a room full of measuring devices, built, measured and manufactured the DAVE!
It is a mathematical device, with a small analogue output section.


----------



## adrianm

SteveHulk said:


> I still think there is untapped quality headroom and Farad3, SJ, and even people's home-grown designs are earnest and respectable attempts to realise this potential.





Kentajalli said:


> You are correct in that general assertion, however, having glanced at Farad website and read their _Tech Talk _, they do implement RF filters throughout. From input stage, all the way to output. Apart from choice of transformer and rectifying diodes, to three distinct filters, they call _HF filter at pre, intermediate & post _.
> They are aware and point a finger at RF noise coming from outside (the mains), and point a finger at ground loop HF noise.


While I did like the Farad as a PSU with the SOTM streamer over their own PSU (clearly much worse) , it was still improved considerably by my mains filter,  just like my Genesis. So not quite a one stop shop either.


----------



## Lgn3

I dont doubt that DAVE sounds different when one of these custom power supplies are fitted. Whether better is surely subjective, in the same way as some prefer to use a preamp or headphone amp with DAVE whereas others believe this causes a loss of transparency. 
 As my experience with Chord dacs goes  back to DAC 64 I tend to believe that Rob Watts  genuinely thinks the fitted smps does exactly what he needs it to do.


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 18, 2022)

Ards said:


> Would love Rob's take, too, but wouldn't have put the question quite so antagonistically.  Perhaps we can all chip in and pay Rob's petrol costs to get him over to @Triode User for an A/B listen!



Rob might have heard a SJ solution on Dave in 2018. @Triode User pointed me to this post of user @romaz (If its him)

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...dio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=1149407

Quote from that post:
"In November of 2017, while in he U.K. visiting Rob Watts, he was kind enough to share with me the necessary specifications for building an external PSU for DAVE.  In exchange, he had expressed a desire to hear this PSU during his planned visit to my home in March of 2018"

Not sure if Rob visited Romaz or if its a repost of someone else..

Sidenote: i wonder what kind of specifications that have been (a schematic?)

Edit:
I found it on Headfi:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/post-14374000

It was the explenation of TT2's supercaps that brought me on track of my upcoming experiment


----------



## adrianm

Didn't get a chance to watch it myself yet, but i hear our favorite influencer has a guest spot


----------



## MvRBE10

Question i use dave directly into my amp with rca which is briljant but i use the xlr output to my subwoofer. I got the feeling this does something to my sound?

Is there a sort of source dx thing for xlr to seperate the signal!


----------



## SteveHulk

Kentajalli said:


> Certain devices can almost fully be objectively measured, a power supply, an amplifier, a filter network  . . . .
> Remember, people in a room full of measuring devices, built, measured and manufactured the DAVE!
> It is a mathematical device, with a small analogue output section.


The phrase "mathematical device" is redolent of the old and now discredited "bits are bits" argument.

This supposed digital purity is always gatecrashed by analogue reality.

The DAVE might well be a mathematical device but power supplies are firmly analogue.

Analogue rules such as an ideal psu being a constant voltage current source still apply.

To suggest that somehow the performance of any device, DAVE or whatever, would be degraded in some way by uprating the psu to be closer to an ideal psu simply makes no sense.

The worse that can happen is no change. In that case the limit of the device itself has been reached and further improvements to the psu will definitely be futile.

My take from the many comments and reviews of Farad3 and ARC6 with DAVE, and my own experience with the Farad3 + DAVE is that this limit is nowhere near being reached.


----------



## chesebert

adrianm said:


> Didn't get a chance to watch it myself yet, but i hear our favorite influencer has a guest spot



To be honest, his videos are always way too long, too boring and too convoluted (no pun intended). Rob could have simply responded to Amir on his website and be done.


----------



## Reactcore

MvRBE10 said:


> Question i use dave directly into my amp with rca which is briljant but i use the xlr output to my subwoofer. I got the feeling this does something to my sound?
> 
> Is there a sort of source dx thing for xlr to seperate the signal!


The source DX is a optical converter which is useless for a electrical audio signal. You can do galvanic isolation but that would degrade the signal too much (specially the low frequencies)

But what is it you hear is wrong?


----------



## chesebert

SteveHulk said:


> The phrase "mathematical device" is redolent of the old and now discredited "bits are bits" argument.
> 
> This supposed digital purity is always gatecrashed by analogue reality.
> 
> ...


I think you are confused and have talked yourself into a rabbit hole. Almost the entire high-end dac manufacturer cohort have gone from LPS to SMPS in the last 10 years.

For your background reading https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/31119-power-supply-8-group-test-lps-and-smps/


----------



## griff500

chesebert said:


> Rob could have simply responded to Amir on his website and be done.


Why on earth would he do that? I can only imagine the reaction from the mob on there. You seriously think he should start posting on a forum where people post that he is a liar that cannot be trusted and the owner of the website, Amir, likes those comments? No bias there...


----------



## chesebert (Jul 19, 2022)

griff500 said:


> Why on earth would he do that? I can only imagine the reaction from the mob on there. You seriously think he should start posting on a forum where people post that he is a liar that cannot be trusted and the owner of the website, Amir, likes those comments? No bias there...


If Stereophile were to give Mscaler a bad review, the proper thing to do would be to post a manufacturer comment in the next issue and be done. It would make 0 sense for Chord to post their manufacturer comment in a competing magazine like Absolute Sound. Same logic with ASR.


----------



## griff500

chesebert said:


> If Stereophile were to give Mscaler a bad review, the proper thing to do would be to post a manufacturer comment in the next issue and be done. It would make 0 sense for Chord to post their manufacturer comment in a competing magazine like Absolute Sound. Same logic with ASR.


It is not the same thing at all. ASR is not a magazine. To post a response there, which would not receive any decent responses, would be to drive more traffic to a website where the owner and some members have such clear bias against him. It would simply add fuel to the fire and benefit nobody but Amir (traffic).

I suspect Stereophile might have discussed this with the designer prior to publishing to gain a full understanding from an open-minded starting point and perhaps incorporated that into the review ("we found x result and questioned the designer about it and he explained that").

We now have members from here who did not hear a difference misrepresenting their experience on this forum now they have found someone to tell them they were 'right' (stating that he was told to let the device burn in when he was actually just told to let himself get used to the sound and then try without the M-Scaler - if anything was being left to burn in it was his brain and not the device).

The internet seems to mostly be about people wanting to be right and wanting to tear others down to lift themselves up. For certain websites those are the majority of posters but, fortunately, they are the minority here.


----------



## chesebert

griff500 said:


> It is not the same thing at all. ASR is not a magazine. To post a response there, which would not receive any decent responses, would be to drive more traffic to a website where the owner and some members have such clear bias against him. It would simply add fuel to the fire and benefit nobody but Amir (traffic).
> 
> I suspect Stereophile might have discussed this with the designer prior to publishing to gain a full understanding from an open-minded starting point and perhaps incorporated that into the review ("we found x result and questioned the designer about it and he explained that").
> 
> ...


Okay, I get what you are saying about reviewer conferring with manufacturers before publishing - I get that and I do the same when I write anything that resembles a review (rarely). I agree that often users no matter how experienced can miss things or fail to consider some parameter in the testing. In any case, my comment was that I don't want to watch a long as f video about Rob's response to Amir.

Coming back to MScaler. Not everyone can hear the effects of MScaler. I participated in a group demo of MScaler and I can tell you not everyone said they heard a different or heard an improvement. Some preferred just the dac without MScaler. The demo was obviously done with Chord dacs.


----------



## griff500

chesebert said:


> Coming back to MScaler. Not everyone can hear the effects of MScaler. I participated in a group demo of MScaler and I can tell you not everyone said they heard a different or heard an improvement. Some preferred just the dac without MScaler. The demo was obviously done with Chord dacs.


I agree with this. I found the difference with the TT2 very much worthwhile. I don't find the difference as great with the Dave and I might actually prefer it without, although sometimes I have preferred a sound initially and then found it to be fatiguing when listening for a longer period. That doesn't make others wrong of course.


----------



## MvRBE10

Reactcore said:


> The source DX is a optical converter which is useless for a electrical audio signal. You can do galvanic isolation but that would degrade the signal too much (specially the low frequencies)
> 
> But what is it you hear is wrong?


I seems less open or a bit conjested if that is the word for it. I must add that the sub is not on the same power phase. I just ordered a kimber xlr. I was using a low cost xlr. And because i have to pull it under my floor will also pull a new power cord to my audio blok so everything is on the same phase. For now its switched off.


----------



## Triode User

chesebert said:


> Rob could have simply responded to Amir on his website and be done.


Oh, yeah? How do you see that going down? Have you read some of the posts on there with bordering on or even being defamation of character or being libellous? RW is best staying away from ASR, IMHO.


----------



## LucyWu

Triode User said:


> RW is best staying away from ASR, IMHO.


As is anyone with a scrap of rationality and decency.


----------



## Kentajalli

SteveHulk said:


> The phrase "mathematical device" is redolent of the old and now discredited "bits are bits" argument.


I had to look up _redolent _! And sorry, Bits _are _Bits! Never been discredited.


SteveHulk said:


> This supposed digital purity is always gatecrashed by analogue reality.
> The DAVE might well be a mathematical device but power supplies are firmly analogue.
> Analogue rules such as an ideal psu being a constant voltage current source still apply.


But a digital, mathematical circuit, is not fussy about its PSU and that's the whole point of digital! Think about it, with DAB radio, for as long as you have signal above a threshold, it is immune to noise from your car, the moped next to you at the lights . . .


SteveHulk said:


> To suggest that somehow the performance of any device, DAVE or whatever, would be degraded in some way by uprating the psu to be closer to an ideal psu simply makes no sense.
> The worse that can happen is no change. In that case the limit of the device itself has been reached and further improvements to the psu will definitely be futile.
> My take from the many comments and reviews of Farad3 and ARC6 with DAVE, and my own experience with the Farad3 + DAVE is that this limit is nowhere near being reached.


I never said the performance of any device will suffer from addition of a better supply! Did I?
I suggested, at best, it won't improve.
But yes, a better supply may improve a mathematical device with _a small analogue output stage!_



Triode User said:


> Oh, yeah? How do you see that going down? Have you read some of the posts on there with bordering on or even being defamation of character or being libellous? RW is best staying away from ASR, IMHO.


I agree, it is the gentleman thing to do.
Amir allows, by way of not tackling some of the posts that go as far as r_ude personal character insults_ on RW, occasionally he even joins in!
Most ASR members are very combative, on one thread, they chased Dan Clark out (designer of DCA Stealth)!
While moderators are fairly quick to act on other issues, they did let _that _pass by.
He came back in an angry reply, then went silent - that is how bad it can get on ASR.


----------



## griff500

Kentajalli said:


> I agree, it is the gentleman thing to do.
> Amir allows, by way of not tackling some of the posts that go as far as r_ude personal character insults_ on RW, occasionally he even joins in!
> Most ASR members are very combative, on one thread, they chased Dan Clark out (designer of DCA Stealth)!
> While moderators are fairly quick to act on other issues, they did let _that _pass by.
> He came back in an angry reply, then went silent - that is how bad it can get on ASR.


He doesn’t just allow it, he even likes some of the defamatory comments that are made!


----------



## Kentajalli

griff500 said:


> He doesn’t just allow it, he even likes some of the defamatory comments that are made!


----------



## SteveHulk (Jul 19, 2022)

Back on the subject of DAVE... 😀

In all this technical talk about power supplies we are overlooking the sad realities of commercial life.

If the reviews and comments from users of ARC6 are to be believed then the beauty of the DAVE digital concept is only being fully realised with a psu that would probably more than double the price at which DAVE could be brought to market.

If DAVE were coming to market at say a £25k price then its competitors would be entirely different. The overall design concept of the DAVE as a preamp, DAC, and headphone amplifier (ie a buy and play box) might not even be valid at that price point. 

As @MvRBE10 has previously remarked, the DAVE smps can be bought in bulk for "the price of postage stamps" - this massive cost saving is a huge pull to using an smps.

The DAVE has to compete with other products, and as I have remarked before this will involve setting a price point at which Chord believes it can sell devices in sufficient numbers and profit margin to make it a commercial reality. To achieve this price point design decisions (compromises) would have to have been made. Of course, and rightly so, Chord would never admit this - it would be commercial suicide! 🙂 It is Chord's business as a company that needs to survive in the real world to make these decisions as best they can. 

Another commercial advantage the smps have over lps in general is that they will operate with a wide range of mains voltage and frequency. This enables a single version of DAVE to be produced for all markets - a big deal for a company that needs to export its product widely. 

As soon as a company is forced to provide subvariants of its core product then manufacturing costs jump. Also there is a risk that the wrong proportion of the variants will be produced incurring wastage and hence further production costs. 

The fact that other manufacturers of digital products are also moving to using smps  is by no means evidence that smps are superior - we need to remember that they are all also under the same commercial and competitive pressures as Chord.

The choice of smps for stock DAVE is not solely a technical decision. It is also very definitely a commercial decision.

The various attempts to design and implement outboard lps are an effort to find out what DAVE might have been had it been designed with the same excellent digital architecture from Mr Watts but with a no holds barred, no stone unturned, no expense spared, reference standard paradigm.


----------



## chesebert (Jul 19, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> Back on the subject of DAVE... 😀
> 
> In all this technical talk about power supplies we are overlooking the sad realities of commercial life.
> 
> ...


At $25k+ price point dac manufacturers are not going to care about some minor increase in BOM as none of them is selling tens of thousands of units a year. Going with LPS would actually be a lot cheaper due to simpler and well established circuits and reduced engineering time. I hate to tell you this but your $10k power supply is probably performing worse than $300 ifi SMPS.

In any case, it’s a hobby so buy whatever that makes you happy. This LPS/battery fad comes and goes so you do you.


----------



## Kentajalli

chesebert said:


> At $25k+ price point dac manufacturers are not going to care about some minor increase in BOM as none of them is selling tens of thousands of units a year. Going with LPS would actually be a lot cheaper due to simpler and well established circuits and reduced engineering time. I hate to tell you this but your $10k power supply is probably performing worse than $300 ifi SMPS.
> 
> In any case, it’s a hobby so buy whatever that makes you happy. This LPS/battery fad comes and goes so you do you.


I don't believe in the PSU either, but in all fairness, you are guessing! aren't you?
Unless you have access to some objective lab measurements of the device, let's not knock it for now.


----------



## chesebert (Jul 19, 2022)

Kentajalli said:


> I don't believe in the PSU either, but in all fairness, you are guessing! aren't you?
> Unless you have access to some objective lab measurements of the device, let's not knock it for now.


For your background reading https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/31119-power-supply-8-group-test-lps-and-smps/

The fact that $50 ifi smps is getting very close to 9v battery performance tells you all you need to know about the current state of engineering re smps.


----------



## audio_1

SteveHulk said:


> If DAVE were coming to market at say a £25k price then its competitors would be entirely different. The overall design concept of the DAVE as a preamp, DAC, and headphone amplifier (ie a buy and play box) might not even be valid at that price point.


It would still be better than the competitors imho. Rob Watts is doing digital correctly! I have never enjoyed my hi-fi so much since getting the Dave and Blu2. I will only upgrade when the M Scaler X and Dave 2 are available. A natural organic sound just flowing with ease from my speakers.


----------



## Triode User

audio_1 said:


> It would still be better than the competitors imho. Rob Watts is doing digital correctly! I have never enjoyed my hi-fi so much since getting the Dave and Blu2. I will only upgrade when the M Scaler X and Dave 2 are available. A natural organic sound just flowing with ease from my speakers.


As we know, the Choral Mscaler is due out later this year (ish) but as to Dave we also know that Dave 2 is not even on RW’s ‘to do list’. 

Just thinking slightly laterally (and in a pointless way), the current and yet to be unveiled Mscaler only use part of Daves circuits so there might be an opening for a Davette dedicated only for use with the Choral range scaler and the Hugo MScaler. See, I said it was a pointless thought. 🤣


----------



## Kentajalli

chesebert said:


> For your background reading https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/31119-power-supply-8-group-test-lps-and-smps/
> 
> The fact that $50 ifi smps is getting very close to 9v battery performance tells you all you need to know about the current state of engineering re smps.


I have seen that, is Farad3 in there?
I get the merits of a well designed and made SMPS.


----------



## chesebert (Jul 19, 2022)

Kentajalli said:


> I have seen that, is Farad3 in there?
> I get the merits of a well designed and made SMPS.


I don't think so. If we believe 9v battery to be the ideal power source from a noise perspective, then that budget ifi is very close to ideal. I have to believe the $300 version of ifi SMPS is better than the one they tested. Well-designed SMPS is currently the state of art in terms of low-power solution. More and more amp designers are choosing SMPS even for high-powered applications. For example, Linn has been using SMPS for their 500w power amps for over a decade and they sound sublime. Admittedly, LPS is way easier to design and implement with well known behavior for power amp usage. Plus you can put some big cap on the LPS output which I believe you cannot do with SMPS. All these drawbacks just mean you have to spend engineering dollar to design a SMPS that works for your specific application.


----------



## Triode User

chesebert said:


> For your background reading https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/31119-power-supply-8-group-test-lps-and-smps/
> 
> The fact that $50 ifi smps is getting very close to 9v battery performance tells you all you need to know about the current state of engineering re smps.


Except does it? That was a very rudimentary set of tests with questioned accuracy that were done on each supply and missed / did not measure other important specifications which affect the performance / sound of hifi gear and in particular digital gear. The ‘review’ is probably more mild interest rather than to be taken too seriously isn’t it?


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> Except does it? That was a very rudimentary set of tests with questioned accuracy that were done on each supply and missed / did not measure other important specifications which affect the performance / sound of hifi gear and in particular digital gear. The ‘review’ is probably more mild interest rather than to be taken too seriously isn’t it?


Still more than SJ offers


----------



## chesebert

Triode User said:


> Except does it? That was a very rudimentary set of tests with questioned accuracy that were done on each supply and missed / did not measure other important specifications which affect the performance / sound of hifi gear and in particular digital gear. The ‘review’ is probably more mild interest rather than to be taken too seriously isn’t it?


Not many choices when it comes to PSU review/testing. In the end, it shouldn't really matter because you are buying the dac as a package.

Fyi, John Atkinson just responded/commented in Amir's post about MScaler. I think Rob should read Amir's results and post manufacturer's feedback in the comments on behalf of Chord Electronics.


----------



## griff500

chesebert said:


> Fyi, John Atkinson just responded/commented in Amir's post about MScaler. I think Rob should read Amir's results and post manufacturer's feedback in the comment on behalf of Chord Electronics.


He’s not the manufacturer.


----------



## chesebert (Jul 19, 2022)

griff500 said:


> He’s not the manufacturer.


Rob works for Chord and represents Chord at trade shows - so he speaks on behalf of Chord. He should at least respond to JA's comment about his own review/view on upsampler.


----------



## maxh22

chesebert said:


> Fyi, John Atkinson just responded/commented in Amir's post about MScaler. I think Rob should read Amir's results and post manufacturer's feedback in the comments on behalf of Chord Electronics.


Link?


----------



## griff500

chesebert said:


> Rob works for Chord and represents Chord at trade shows - so he speaks on behalf of Chord. He should at least respond to JA's comment about his own review/view on upsampler.


Why? He’s not obligated to get involved in that forum, and particularly with the insulting posts and clear bias of Amir,  it’s only going to go one way. 

Representing a Company at shows does not mean you can speak on behalf of that Company.


----------



## 801evan

chesebert said:


> For your background reading https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/31119-power-supply-8-group-test-lps-and-smps/
> 
> The fact that $50 ifi smps is getting very close to 9v battery performance tells you all you need to know about the current state of engineering re smps.


Oh geez those are still baby LPS. Ipower x knock it out of the park easy. All LPS has a ringing issue. Exactly why ifi elite can still beat the Hypsos hybrid LPS/smps psu. Farad sound warm shows it's slow and lacks top bottom extension.


----------



## Kentajalli

801evan said:


> Oh geez those are still baby LPS. Ipower x knock it out of the park easy. All LPS has a ringing issue. Exactly why ifi elite can still beat the Hypsos hybrid LPS/smps psu.* Farad sound warm shows it's slow and lacks top bottom extension.*


Can you explain more please, I am confused.


----------



## zen87192

801evan said:


> Farad sound warm shows it's slow and lacks top bottom extension.


Would that be the Farad powering the MScaler or the DAVE?


----------



## 801evan

zen87192 said:


> Would that be the Farad powering the MScaler or the DAVE?


I had a 12v and tried it on multiple devices. So router,ddc and such. Was comparing to lps 1.2 and hdplex.


----------



## Somatic

@zen87192 

Happy belated birthday. Did you finally install the Farad3 to your system? If so, how did you like it. Been away from the Dave thread so sorry if I missed your impressions.


----------



## zen87192

Somatic said:


> @zen87192
> 
> Happy belated birthday. Did you finally install the Farad3 to your system? If so, how did you like it. Been away from the Dave thread so sorry if I missed your impressions.


Many thanks! Link to my post re. Installation and initial thoughts.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/post-17052206



801evan said:


> I had a 12v and tried it on multiple devices. So router,ddc and such. Was comparing to lps 1.2 and hdplex.


So are you saying that the Farad Super 3 sounds warm, is slow and lacks (top and bottom) extension on the MScaler and/or the DAVE? You have these units to hand and have also installed them within the DAVE and on the end of an MScaler? I find this very interesting to hear your further thoughts if you have done so.


----------



## 801evan

zen87192 said:


> So are you saying that the Farad Super 3 sounds warm, is slow and lacks (top and bottom) extension on the MScaler and/or the DAVE? You have these units to hand and have also installed them within the DAVE and on the end of an MScaler? I find this very interesting to hear your further thoughts if you have done so.


I already said it on the router and such.

I assumed ppl already saw this psu shoot out but apparently not.

https://audiobacon.net/2021/08/06/the-worlds-best-audiophile-linear-power-supplies/

https://audiobacon.net/best-audiophile-power-supplies/

Farad didn't even come close.


----------



## chesebert

801evan said:


> I assumed ppl already saw this psu shoot out but apparently not.
> 
> https://audiobacon.net/2021/08/06/the-worlds-best-audiophile-linear-power-supplies/
> 
> ...


Such a wasted opportunity to get a scope on those PSUs.


----------



## 801evan

End of the day....ifi elite. Lol


----------



## zen87192

801evan said:


> I already said it on the router and such.


Thank you for the clarification.


----------



## DJW50

Does anyone think that Chord will offer a low voltage input on a new of model DAVE at a later date? considering the large number of people who have taken the matter into their own hands. 
I'm planning on buying a DAVE to replace my Qutest in the future and I'm only half way there cash wise. I'm seriously thinking of holding back the purchase of the DAVE until a new model comes out. 
I wonder how long I may have to wait, I'm more than happy with the Qutest and the MCRU LPS at the moment but having looked at Youtube reviews of Holo May and tried a number of other DACS which have all gone back for a refund I have decided I will buy a DAVE at some stage in the future, I certainly don't want to buy one next year having saved only to find a new model coming out a few months after I buy one.


----------



## miketlse

DJW50 said:


> Does anyone think that Chord will offer a low voltage input on a new of model DAVE at a later date? considering the large number of people who have taken the matter into their own hands.
> I'm planning on buying a DAVE to replace my Qutest in the future and I'm only half way there cash wise. I'm seriously thinking of holding back the purchase of the DAVE until a new model comes out.
> I wonder how long I may have to wait, I'm more than happy with the Qutest and the MCRU LPS at the moment but having looked at Youtube reviews of Holo May and tried a number of other DACS which have all gone back for a refund I have decided I will buy a DAVE at some stage in the future, I certainly don't want to buy one next year having saved only to find a new model coming out a few months after I buy one.


I doubt that there will ever be a DAVE 2.

Rob always posts that the DAVE 2 is not on his design radar, plus Chord seem to be moving away from single-box solutions, and more towards a long-term vision of standalone upscalers, digital amps, streamers,.....
Just my opinion, which could be totally wrong.


----------



## adrianm

DJW50 said:


> Does anyone think that Chord will offer a low voltage input on a new of model DAVE at a later date? considering the large number of people who have taken the matter into their own hands.
> I'm planning on buying a DAVE to replace my Qutest in the future and I'm only half way there cash wise. I'm seriously thinking of holding back the purchase of the DAVE until a new model comes out.
> I wonder how long I may have to wait, I'm more than happy with the Qutest and the MCRU LPS at the moment but having looked at Youtube reviews of Holo May and tried a number of other DACS which have all gone back for a refund I have decided I will buy a DAVE at some stage in the future, I certainly don't want to buy one next year having saved only to find a new model coming out a few months after I buy one.


People have been asking this question for at least 3-4 years  There's talk of a more expensive Ultima-level dac potentially being on the road map, but no one knows for sure. Either way,  as long as you get a good price and don't pay retail ,you'd be safe with Dave's resell value.
   For _our particular preference_  there doesn't seem to be anything that beats it under its price point.   I will audition the Lina soon enough, but I doubt it will actually top Dave in my setup. Especially since adding the Ferrum Oor, couldn't be happier with it.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jul 23, 2022)

DJW50 said:


> Does anyone think that Chord will offer a low voltage input on a new of model DAVE at a later date? considering the large number of people who have taken the matter into their own hands.
> I'm planning on buying a DAVE to replace my Qutest in the future and I'm only half way there cash wise. I'm seriously thinking of holding back the purchase of the DAVE until a new model comes out.
> I wonder how long I may have to wait, I'm more than happy with the Qutest and the MCRU LPS at the moment but having looked at Youtube reviews of Holo May and tried a number of other DACS which have all gone back for a refund I have decided I will buy a DAVE at some stage in the future, I certainly don't want to buy one next year having saved only to find a new model coming out a few months after I buy one.


There seems to be no evidence that a new DAVE is coming out in the foreseeable future.

In your position I'd go ahead for three reasons: it is a great DAC in its own right, should you ever want a DAVE 2 if it comes the DAVE would hold its value well as a trade-in, and you have the various lps solutions - Farad, ARC6 etc - which are very effective upgrades.


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jul 23, 2022)

There were rumors of a new Chord dac though. Maybe not a DAVE 2, but something. Personally, I dunno if it is a great time to buy a DAVE.  I love my mDAVE with SJ PSUs, but if I had to do it again, right now at this moment, I don’t know if I would. For the price of a DAVE with all the extra stuff, you’re now at a whole new level, like a DCS Rossini, etc. Would they be better than the Dave with extras?  Maybe

The thing is, the DAVE is old, with no upgradeable firmware, meaning it will just keep getting older.


----------



## Triode User

Ciggavelli said:


> There were rumors of a new Chord dac though. Maybe not a DAVE 2, but something. Personally, I dunno if it is a great time to buy a DAVE.  I love my mDAVE with SJ PSUs, but if I had to do it again, right now at this moment, I don’t know if I would. For the price of a DAVE with all the extra stuff, you’re now at a whole new level, like a DCS Rossini or something.


For sure there is always that ‘what if‘ but some have heard a tricked out Dave/HMS against Rossini say that the dCS loses out so who knows


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jul 23, 2022)

Triode User said:


> For sure there is always that ‘what if‘ but some have heard a tricked out Dave/HMS against Rossini say that the dCS loses out so who knows


Yeah, I really want to get a Rossini home demo with my setup, but that’s very hard to do where I live. Also, the price. While my tricked out DAVE cost about the same as a Rossini, the costs were spread over time, making it easier to swallow. My mind hasn’t fully wrapped around the idea of paying that much at one time for a Rossini priced dac. But, I still do wonder.


----------



## Triode User

Ciggavelli said:


> Yeah, I really want to get a Rossini home demo with my setup, but that’s very hard to do where I live. Also, the price. While my tricked out DAVE cost about the same as a Rossini, the costs were spread over time, making it easier to swallow. My mind hasn’t fully wrapped around the idea of paying that much at one time for a Rossini priced dac. But, I still do wonder.


. . . . .  then there is the prospect of the new Choral range Scaler which should lift the Dave to new levels. And so it goes on . . .


----------



## DJW50 (Jul 23, 2022)

I've been tracking two DAVE's that came ip on e-bay recently both quite new one £6100 and the other newer one £6700 so I may just go down that route and budget for replacing the power supply.
Just to add I'm only looking for a DAC my Pathos Inpol Ear will stay forever as will my Auralic Aries G1streamer


----------



## MvRBE10

DJW50 said:


> I've been tracking two DAVE's that came ip on e-bay recently both quite new one £6100 and the other newer one £6700 so I may just go down that route and budget for replacing the power supply.
> Just to add I'm only looking for a DAC my Pathos Inpol Ear will stay forever as will my Auralic Aries G1streamer


Do that and you will be very happy. Keep it simple and relativaly cheap👍🏻


----------



## ZappaMan

DJW50 said:


> I've been tracking two DAVE's that came ip on e-bay recently both quite new one £6100 and the other newer one £6700 so I may just go down that route and budget for replacing the power supply.
> Just to add I'm only looking for a DAC my Pathos Inpol Ear will stay forever as will my Auralic Aries G1streamer


I got a good deal at nintronics - traded in tt2, maybe worth seeing what they can do.


----------



## DJW50

ZappaMan said:


> I got a good deal at nintronics - traded in tt2, maybe worth seeing what they can do.


I've seen their items on e-bay and they seem to be £1000 more for the same item, not that I object as we all have to make a living.
I was lucky to see Zappa at Brighton many years ago.


----------



## ZappaMan

DJW50 said:


> I've seen their items on e-bay and they seem to be £1000 more for the same item, not that I object as we all have to make a living.
> I was lucky to see Zappa at Brighton many years ago.


Roxy and elsewhere is a good recording, can pick up a lot of the live feeling.


----------



## SteveHulk

ZappaMan said:


> I got a good deal at nintronics - traded in tt2, maybe worth seeing what they can do.


That's how I got my DAVE too.


----------



## zen87192

DJW50 said:


> I've been tracking two DAVE's that came ip on e-bay recently both quite new one £6100 and the other newer one £6700 so I may just go down that route and budget for replacing the power supply.
> Just to add I'm only looking for a DAC my Pathos Inpol Ear will stay forever as will my Auralic Aries G1streamer


Also, give the Gents at Fanthorpes HiFi a call as well. They are fabulous and offer fantastic Customer Services as well. I've dealt with them now on several occasions and they are also very open with their Demo equipment if you need to trial/listen before you buy. I'll be returning to them again for the up and coming Innuos Pulsar Streamer released in September.


----------



## Lgn3

zen87192 said:


> Also, give the Gents at Fanthorpes HiFi a call as well. They are fabulous and offer fantastic Customer Services as well. I've dealt with them now on several occasions and they are also very open with their Demo equipment if you need to trial/listen before you buy. I'll be returning to them again for the up and coming Innuos Pulsar Streamer released in September.



Agreed, I cannot speak highly enough of Fanthorpes.


----------



## Triode User

Lgn3 said:


> Agreed, I cannot speak highly enough of Fanthorpes.


Also another big 👍 from me for Fanthorpes.


----------



## DJW50

I agree with you all I had the PS Audio DAC on trial from them and bought my PS Audio Powerplant from them. Very good company.
As I said I watch every DAVE that comes up on e-bay and £6700 for an 18 month old one isn't bad so when my funds allow I'll hopefully pick up something like that.


----------



## zen87192 (Jul 23, 2022)

Just be extra careful on eBay.. take all the precautions possible. I know Nintronics has an account on there so that counts as a possible plus. It may be worth reaching out to Fanthorpes or whom ever you choose to see if they can source a second hand DAVE or indeed they have one incoming to themselves.... this way you also have payment options and guarantees.


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## alxw0w

Same here, my first TT1 was bought from Fanthorpes, excellent customer service and price as well.


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## Reactcore (Jul 23, 2022)

DJW50 said:


> I watch every DAVE that comes up on e-bay



Also keep in mind that prizes in general are rising.. and not all sellers realized that for their Dave..

I did the same but be sure to go hear and test it first at the seller's place

BTW, Have you heard one once?


----------



## DJW50

No I haven't, I work on the strict basis that if I can't buy something outright I don't buy it. That way it allows me to do lots of homework regarding any purchase. The fact that the DAVE is quite expensive will make me more cautious. 
As a collector of watches I have bought watches many times more expensive than the DAVE on e-bay from all over the world with no problems, in some ways Paypal is your friend there, although electronic equipment is a risk I'm quite comfortable once I have contacted the buyer.
The two recent DAVE's look to be genuine.


----------



## SteveHulk

Ciggavelli said:


> ... Also, the price. While my tricked out DAVE cost about the same as a Rossini, the costs were spread over time, making it easier to swallow. My mind hasn’t fully wrapped around the idea of paying that much at one time for a Rossini priced dac. But, I still do wonder.


That's a big point. You buy a Rossini and you still have major expenses to get a system that actually plays music. This makes the Rossini DAC extremely hard to swallow if you are already stretching your budget just for that. 

The same thing applies to the DAVE itself, but at a lower price point. Buy a DAVE, get a sound source and a pair of headphones and you can have instant music plus you have a device that will respond very well indeed to system and power supply upgrades.

The fact that DAVE + lps is even mentioned in the same breath as the Rossini makes getting a DAVE a no-brainer. So much more fun to be had. 

People who can buy a Rossini outright are already in a much different market budget-wise to the one at which DAVE is pitched.

These considerations just don't apply to those people.


----------



## zen87192 (Jul 23, 2022)

DJW50 said:


> As a collector of watches I have bought watches many times more expensive than the DAVE


Yes! Fellow Watch collector! I'm expecting a Tag Monaco 'Dark Lord' soon.... sorry for the off thread comment.... got excited there's another Watch collector on the forum! 🤣


----------



## SteveHulk

DJW50 said:


> No I haven't, I work on the strict basis that if I can't buy something outright I don't buy it. That way it allows me to do lots of homework regarding any purchase. The fact that the DAVE is quite expensive will make me more cautious.
> As a collector of watches I have bought watches many times more expensive than the DAVE on e-bay from all over the world with no problems, in some ways Paypal is your friend there, although electronic equipment is a risk I'm quite comfortable once I have contacted the buyer.
> The two recent DAVE's look to be genuine.


In this day and age and at these price points it should be possible to arrange a video call with the seller who can then demonstrate live that their DAVE functions properly, and show you the condition of the casework. 

You would also be able to view the serial number so you would know that the one you receive is the same as the one shown to you. 

Anything less than pristine, just walk away. The kind of mistreatment that would visibly damage something as solid as the DAVE would almost certainly void the warranty.


----------



## DJW50

SteveHulk said:


> In this day and age and at these price points it should be possible to arrange a video call with the seller who can then demonstrate live that their DAVE functions properly, and show you the condition of the casework.
> 
> You would also be able to view the serial number so you would know that the one you receive is the same as the one shown to you.
> 
> Anything less than pristine, just walk away. The kind of mistreatment that would visibly damage something as solid as the DAVE would almost certainly void the warranty.


I agree, both items on e-bay had all the original box and leads etc and you could see the serial number something that does indicate that the said purchase date of 2021 was correct. As you say its easy these days to do a video call and any whiff of suspicion can be dealt with.
First thing I'll do is change the power supply, it made a difference to my Qutest so I'll follow you guys on that point.


----------



## Reactcore

Hi @Rob Watts 

What is the story behind this SMA reservation near Dave's display header..
Was there once a Bluetooth function planned for Dave?


----------



## SteveHulk (Jul 23, 2022)

zen87192 said:


> Just be extra careful on eBay.. take all the precautions possible. I know Nintronics has an account on there so that counts as a possible plus. It may be worth reaching out to Fanthorpes or whom ever you choose to see if they can source a second hand DAVE or indeed they have one incoming to themselves.... this way you also have payment options and guarantees.


I don't think there's much point in buying from Nintronics on ebay.

You can buy whatever it is direct from them and maybe you could persuade them to cut you some of the ebay sellers' fees that they would be saving in the process 🙂


----------



## DJW50

zen87192 said:


> Yes! Fellow Watch collector! I'm expecting a Tag Monaco 'Dark Lord' soon.... sorry for the off thread comment.... got excited there's another Watch collector on the forum! 🤣


Yes I've been chasing a Rolex Cellini platinum for some time now but finding one with the original box with all papers is becoming a task.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jul 23, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> Hi @Rob Watts
> 
> What is the story behind this SMA reservation near Dave's display header..
> Was there once a Bluetooth function planned for Dave?



Curiouser and curiouser 🤔🤓

Makes one wonder what might be hiding under that apparently oh so hard to remove internal shield in the m scaler as well... 😀


----------



## Reactcore

SteveHulk said:


> Curiouser and curiouser 🤔🤓
> 
> Makes one wonder what might be hiding under that apparently oh so hard to remove internal shield in the m scaler as well... 😀


Hm🤭 that would be a wireless Dualdata link reservation 😇 lol


----------



## DJW50

Is it correct that the later models have the outputs/inputs on the rear machined into the case and the early ones didn't?


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 23, 2022)

DJW50 said:


> Is it correct that the later models have the outputs/inputs on the rear machined into the case and the early ones didn't?


True ive seen that too.. also the very early had a curved porthole glass.. Hence why some early reviewers named it a cyclops design

You can also check the serial number..
The latest start with 50.. or even 60 now


----------



## alxw0w

Reactcore said:


> also the very early had a curved porthole glass


I wish Chord still used magnifying glass on the display, it looked cool.


----------



## zen87192

alxw0w said:


> I wish Chord still used magnifying glass on the display, it looked cool.


I wonder if one can buy the 'old' version 'cyclops' glass from Chord?


----------



## alxw0w

zen87192 said:


> I wonder if one can buy the 'old' version 'cyclops' glass from Chord?


Haha I asked them about it some time ago.
Unfortunately it's not available anymore. Chord responded that magnifying glass was used at first batch and very little units used that.


----------



## SteveHulk

DJW50 said:


> No I haven't, I work on the strict basis that if I can't buy something outright I don't buy it. That way it allows me to do lots of homework regarding any purchase. The fact that the DAVE is quite expensive will make me more cautious.
> As a collector of watches I have bought watches many times more expensive than the DAVE on e-bay from all over the world with no problems, in some ways Paypal is your friend there, although electronic equipment is a risk I'm quite comfortable once I have contacted the buyer.
> The two recent DAVE's look to be genuine.


By the way, if you haven't heard a DAVE you are in for a real treat.


----------



## SteveHulk

zen87192 said:


> I wonder if one can buy the 'old' version 'cyclops' glass from Chord?


If you could buy a convex lens of the right radius that is planar on one face you might even be able to fit it yourself.

Up the ante by having the faces reflection-coated, like a camera lens. I think that would look awesome.


----------



## paulrbarnard

DJW50 said:


> No I haven't, I work on the strict basis that if I can't buy something outright I don't buy it. That way it allows me to do lots of homework regarding any purchase. The fact that the DAVE is quite expensive will make me more cautious.
> As a collector of watches I have bought watches many times more expensive than the DAVE on e-bay from all over the world with no problems, in some ways Paypal is your friend there, although electronic equipment is a risk I'm quite comfortable once I have contacted the buyer.
> The two recent DAVE's look to be genuine.


How recent?  I bought one on eBay about a month ago. Absolutely no problems with the purchase. The seller was very helpful and the Dave arrived in pristine condition a few days later.


----------



## adrianm

DJW50 said:


> I agree, both items on e-bay had all the original box and leads etc and you could see the serial number something that does indicate that the said purchase date of 2021 was correct. As you say its easy these days to do a video call and any whiff of suspicion can be dealt with.
> First thing I'll do is change the power supply, it made a difference to my Qutest so I'll follow you guys on that point.


I would listen to it  before changing the power supply


----------



## Powersquat

zen87192 said:


> Also, give the Gents at Fanthorpes HiFi a call as well. They are fabulous and offer fantastic Customer Services as well. I've dealt with them now on several occasions and they are also very open with their Demo equipment if you need to trial/listen before you buy. I'll be returning to them again for the up and coming Innuos Pulsar Streamer released in September.



I totally agree, Marc and the team are excellent, most of my system was purchased from Fanthorpes.


----------



## Hooster

Looks like DAVE just got it's ass handed to it, 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-dave-review-dac-hp-amp.35974/


----------



## chesebert (Jul 23, 2022)

Hooster said:


> Looks like DAVE just got it's ass handed to it,
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-dave-review-dac-hp-amp.35974/


The measurements look fine, with some of that nastiness from PSU but not really audible. It was only able to resolve 18bits so that was disappointing. Overall I wouldn’t say it got its ass handed to it.


----------



## Hooster

chesebert said:


> The measurements look fine, with some of that nastiness from PSU but not really audible. It was only able to resolve 18bits so that was disappointing. Overall I wouldn’t say it got its ass handed to it.



I suppose it depends what you expect, what you compare it with and how much you think the design/brand, etc. is worth paying for. I can see that. I can also see that the performance is poor compared to products that cost a 10th of what DAVE costs.


----------



## ZappaMan

One thing I’d say, non political, is that, some of the harshest albums I want to enjoy, but in reality haven’t been able to comprehend, like Thom Yorkes , anima, a thoroughly thru and thru futuristic album, but with Dave, the timbre of the organic instruments come through.

I am on the voyage of discovery and Dave is seriously breaking down complex music to humanely enjoyable forms.

To the future my friends!


----------



## chesebert

Hooster said:


> I suppose it depends what you expect, what you compare it with and how much you think the design/brand, etc. is worth paying for. I can see that. I can also see that the performance is poor compared to products that cost a 10th of what DAVE costs.


I mean you get your ass handed to you when you get a broken head panther or empty piggy bank panther. I see Dave getting the “meh” panther 😂


----------



## ZappaMan

I think the music that has been encoded, Is. replayed to a very high level. 

Let the trolls say otherwise; but specifically by album and track, because Dave is great, without any regret.


----------



## SteveHulk

Hooster said:


> Looks like DAVE just got it's ass handed to it,
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-dave-review-dac-hp-amp.35974/


Oh puhleeeze 🙄


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Can't lie im a bit surprised by the measured performance, it is the DAVE dac were talking about.


----------



## chesebert (Jul 23, 2022)

AnalogEuphoria said:


> Can't lie im a bit surprised by the measured performance, it is the DAVE dac were talking about.


I am guessing a brand new Dave probably measures better - smps does degrade over time unless overbuilt.

Edit: Brand new unit does appear to measure better. Here is the one from Stereophile (see blue and red noise floor for 24bit data):


----------



## Thenewguy007

Hooster said:


> Looks like DAVE just got it's ass handed to it,
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-dave-review-dac-hp-amp.35974/



Funny Goldensound & Stereophile didn't find these problems in their measurments.


----------



## SteveHulk

Thenewguy007 said:


> Funny Goldensound & Stereophile didn't find these problems in their measurments.


Funny how ASSR didn't get round to doing this "review" for seven years.


----------



## chesebert (Jul 23, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> Funny how ASSR didn't get round to doing this "review" for seven years.


Amir tests whatever that's sent to him by regular people. I guess no one sent him a Dave to test in the past 7 years.

Also, @Rob Watts should feel free to ask Chord to send Amir a new unit to review given the oddities in the noise floor in Amir's test.

Edit: looks like the unit Amir tested has about 18bit resolution, the one @GoldenOne tested has about 18-19bit and the one stereophile tested has about 20bit resolution.


----------



## theveterans

SteveHulk said:


> Oh puhleeeze 🙄



The sender actually prefers the D90SE over it. I suspect his unit is defective as shown by Amir’s measurements


----------



## alxw0w

Here we go again...


----------



## RustyGates

The measured results of the DAVE seems to vary a lot throughout the past 7ish years and between reviewers, particularly over the recent years with APx555 rigs. ASR measured the Qutest to be equivalent if not better than DAVE. The question is what does Rob think about this?


----------



## adrianm

Hooster said:


> Looks like DAVE just got it's ass handed to it,
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-dave-review-dac-hp-amp.35974/


That's it, now I'm definitely getting a Topping.


----------



## chesebert

I mean from a design perspective it’s always better to have lower noise and higher linearity but in practice most musical materials have way less than 90db of actual dynamic range so I’m not really sure it matters all that much. In my mind the interpolation filter and reconstruction filter are far more important to get right. Also important to eliminate any pre or post ringing in the final output.


----------



## Hooster (Jul 24, 2022)

So what effect is this going to have on the used DAVE market? Some seem to think that old DAVE is much worse than new DAVE. I honestly thought a DAVE was a DAVE.

Also, it is worth keeping in mind that the DAVE is still in the excellent category of dacs. It does the job just fine, the problem just seems to be the poor value for money it offers. It does not appear to be broken.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-dave-review-dac-hp-amp.35974/





With respect to panthers, here are the latest results:


----------



## adrianm

Ciggavelli said:


> The thing is, the DAVE is old, with no upgradeable firmware, meaning it will just keep getting older.


I'm not sure why people keep thinking firmware upgrades will magically give them better performance. That's only the case if it was poorly designed when released, or if there was a critical flaw. And again i have to disagree here, with a dCS stuff you're limited to their up-sampling, which also seems to generate a ton of ultrasonic noise.
    I consider HQP with LNS15 a huge upgrade over the M-scaler, not to mention solo Dave. Even the Mola Mola only has a 7th order noise filter. And being able to play with them with one click in Hqp, you can clearly hear what a difference it makes. And the updates will keep coming.


----------



## paulrbarnard

The one thing that is clear is that the dog whistle is coming through with perfect clarity on ASR. It would be nice if it didn’t do the same here.  
The unit tested on ASR seems to be a good unit and the test results look completely correct. It is what it is, you can’t argue the numbers. 
The question on this site should be do you like your DAVE or not and leave it at that.


----------



## flyte3333

chesebert said:


> The measurements look fine, with some of that nastiness from PSU but not really audible. It was only able to resolve 18bits so that was disappointing. Overall I wouldn’t say it got its ass handed to it.


Certainly not performing state of the art though, and given the price 

It's certainly good performance given @Rob Watts does everything discretely but so does Bruno Putzeys with his Mola Mola DAC

So much talk about the digital domain (sincs and taps) but what about the analogue output performance?

And it seems DAC chips and implementations have come a long way since Rob worked on them decades ago.

And the measurements are very consistent with GoldenOne's APx555 DAVE measurements, even with M-Saler.


----------



## flyte3333

Thenewguy007 said:


> Funny Goldensound & Stereophile didn't find these problems in their measurments.



Goldensounds APx555 measurements are very similar.

Goldensound owns and uses Dave so probably left commentary out but the measurements themselves are similar


----------



## adrianm

Hooster said:


> So what effect is this going to have on the used DAVE market? Some seem to think that old DAVE is much worse than new DAVE. I honestly thought a DAVE was a DAVE.
> 
> Also, it is worth keeping in mind that the DAVE is still in the excellent category of dacs. It does the job just fine, the problem just seems to be the poor value for money it offers. It does not appear to be broken.
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-dave-review-dac-hp-amp.35974/
> ...


Why are the opinions of some random, frustrated people supposed to mean anything? Most people here that would sell Dave, would buy something they would disagree with even more. As stated countless times, Amir is far from some authority on ...anything. For all expensive equipment reviews he is an outlier compared to everyone else.
  You could argue Dave is outdated, but I know at least one known reviewer who bought his Dave last month. And he's heard _everything. 
_As for me, i have no problem saying Dave's psu sux and needs improvement, and the headphone amp, likewise. I'll keep auditioning other dacs, cheaper and more expensive. If i find something else i like more, i'll get it. 
    I sure as hell won't do it because of Amir's rankings, like the guy who "prefers the topping over Dave anyway". Talk about objectivity


----------



## adrianm

flyte3333 said:


> Goldensounds APx555 measurements are very similar.
> 
> Goldensound owns and uses Dave so probably left commentary out but the measurements themselves are similar


No, he doesn't. It was on loan. He owns a May.


----------



## chesebert

flyte3333 said:


> Certainly not performing state of the art though, and given the price
> 
> It's certainly good performance given @Rob Watts does everything discretely but so does Bruno Putzeys with his Mola Mola DAC
> 
> ...


I agree the measured performance is not sota.

I am sensitive to pre and post ringing - sounds like high frequency hash and “digital” sounds. This is the kind of graph I look for in a dac.


----------



## flyte3333 (Jul 24, 2022)

adrianm said:


> No, he doesn't. It was on loan. He owns a May.



Ok but it doesn't change the fact both GoldenSound and ASR's measurements are similar, both with APx555

Ignoring the commentary and looking at the measurements


----------



## adrianm

flyte3333 said:


> Ok but it doesn't change the fact both GoldenSound and ASR's measurements are similar, both with APx555
> 
> Ignoring the commentary and looking at the measurements


I'm absolutely fine with that, it's a 7 year old device, and I only care about measurements up to a point. Have no intention of debating measurements or fr graphs.
     It was sota at the time. It can be had for a significant discount, and I haven't heard anything else cheaper that's better to my ears, or I would've bought it.


----------



## flyte3333

adrianm said:


> I'm absolutely fine with that, it's a 7 year old device, and I only care about measurements up to a point. Have no intention of debating measurements or fr graphs.
> It was sota at the time. It can be had for a significant discount, and I haven't heard anything else cheaper that's better to my ears, or I would've bought it.


Yeh fair enough, i would never critique someobody's personal preference. 

At the end of the day it is still good performance (ignoring price, even 2nd hand).

But i think the days of saying best DAC in the world are long over.

Rob is not the only person with an APx555 anymore and Dave is not 'bottoming out' APx555 in most measurements. 

And other DACs measure better. This can't be argued anymore.


----------



## adrianm

flyte3333 said:


> Yeh fair enough, i would never critique someobody's personal preference.
> 
> At the end of the day it is still good performance (ignoring price, even 2nd hand).
> 
> ...


So what is the best dac in the world? People have been saying it's MSB or Vivaldi. Amir is free to take a crack at those 100k dacs and tell us his shocking revelations.
  You can argue, just because it measures better doesn't make it better. For example the THX amplifier tech sounds a bit horrendous, even though it does bottom out APx555. I tried to like it, but It doesn't sound natural, even on the HPA4, which is better than the Toppings ASR loves to push. Just like people saying the Harman target is the ideal just because a percentage of people voted on it sounding best to them.
     People need to stop taking what Amir, Rob, or anyone else says like gospel. Especially in fields where they lack a basic understanding. That just leads to a cult, not some authority on anything.
  I'm sure most people here don't get a feeling a superiority from owning Dave (There's cars and watches for that)  so I think the more pressing concern is why do ASR folks get such a dopamine rush out of these supposed "takedowns"? It's a frenzy over there every time.


----------



## alxw0w

adrianm said:


> I'm sure most people here don't get a feeling a superiority from owning Dave (There's cars and watches for that)


People tend to boost their ego using everything they can. That's human nature. Some people use expensive stuff to do so, some people use measurements to do the same thing.

Some people are just listening to music


----------



## flyte3333

adrianm said:


> so I think the more pressing concern is why do ASR folks get such a dopamine rush out of these supposed "takedowns"? It's a frenzy over there every time.



I wouldn't call it a 'concern' but they are simply comparing the measurements (not really what Amir writes...) to what is claimed

I think if the claim is best ever objectively and nothing else comes close, and objective measurements show otherwise, that is a fair discussion in my opinion.

Friendly discussion. Doesn't need to get so heated in my opinion but unfortunately it does.


----------



## alxw0w

flyte3333 said:


> Friendly discussion. Doesn't need to get so heated in my opinion but unfortunately it does.


The key thing why that's happening is INTERNET.
People feel anonymous and powerful, in real life things are not so easy


----------



## flyte3333

alxw0w said:


> The key thing why that's happening is INTERNET.
> People feel anonymous and powerful, in real life things are not so easy



Personally I don't care. I just look at the data.

I find it interesting, especially comparing to marketing claims.

But it's no reason to get heated  but yes, people do. Its comical mostly

In the end, my ears have to be happy. Need to listen


----------



## AlephAlpha001

Hooster said:


> So what effect is this going to have on the used DAVE market? Some seem to think that old DAVE is much worse than new DAVE. I honestly thought a DAVE was a DAVE.
> 
> Also, it is worth keeping in mind that the DAVE is still in the excellent category of dacs. It does the job just fine, the problem just seems to be the poor value for money it offers. It does not appear to be broken.
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-dave-review-dac-hp-amp.35974/
> ...



Y’all could quit moaning and upgrade to a Qutest. Just saying


----------



## alxw0w

flyte3333 said:


> But it's no reason to get heated but yes, people do. Its comical mostly


They do because as I said, it's their ego. In their eyes you are not talking about their gear but about them about their ego, that's why they are often so 'angry'.


----------



## adrianm

flyte3333 said:


> I think if the claim is best ever objectively and nothing else comes close, and objective measurements show otherwise, that is a fair discussion in my opinion.
> 
> Friendly discussion. Doesn't need to get so heated in my opinion but unfortunately it does.


Claim made 7 years ago. If Rob  still maintains this, he's welcome to defend it. That's not my issue though. It's that people oversimplify things and ASR's reviews are always manipulative and taken out of context. They are not meant to inform, they're just meant to make a certain demographic feel better about themselves and sell them on a few brands. Just like all forums. They're just covering a niche market. What is comical is the cult following.
     I do agree that the headphone output could be bettered, despite what Rob and other claim. I also agree that the PSU, in stock form, is bad. I even agree with Amir on the M-scaler on some issues. But he is being manipulative.
   And just like he boils it down to "I can't hear anything special" , we can boil it down to "we can hear it "


----------



## adrianm

AlephAlpha001 said:


> Y’all could quit moaning and upgrade to a Qutest. Just saying


Hi Aleph, we appreciate you taking the time to create a Head-fi account just to post this. We're also happy you feel validated. We were just talking about you


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 24, 2022)

Hooster said:


> Looks like DAVE just got it's ass handed to it,
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-dave-review-dac-hp-amp.35974/



"At low to medium volumes, the sound was excellent and I could not detect any impairments. Crank up the volume though and the sound proceeds to get shrill and congested."  .. lol did he 'crank up' to clipping level?😆 We all know Dave has +19dB headroom to accomodate for HMS -3dB and low level recorded material.

Measurements are easy to influence by ones measurement setup.. the cables and connectors used.. the measured source .. even by air born HF signals like a internet router nearby. Specially if youre measuring such tiny levels.

As a past repair engineer i had different outcomes myself due to setup faults measuring on all kinds if equipments.

I would like to see how he had setup his AP in the room.  I'm not blindly following a headless panther.. but rather my ears


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> Why are the opinions of some random, frustrated people supposed to mean anything? Most people here that would sell Dave, would buy something they would disagree with even more. As stated countless times, Amir is far from some authority on ...anything. For all expensive equipment reviews he is an outlier compared to everyone else.
> You could argue Dave is outdated, but I know at least one known reviewer who bought his Dave last month. And he's heard _everything.
> _As for me, i have no problem saying Dave's psu sux and needs improvement, and the headphone amp, likewise. I'll keep auditioning other dacs, cheaper and more expensive. If i find something else i like more, i'll get it.
> I sure as hell won't do it because of Amir's rankings, like the guy who "prefers the topping over Dave anyway". Talk about objectivity


I think the Dave owes its success and sound quality to a balancing act between the different and sometimes conflicting design parameters and consequent measurements when putting together the total package to get the best sound. A ‘review’ such as ASR does not take this into account because they focus on simplistic headline measurements such as SINAD which are easy to present in a league table.

However such a league table does not produce a correct ranking for sound quality. It is a bit like ranking cars based on maximum speed and 0 to 60 times. It is interesting and a bit of fun but ultimately it really doesn’t say which is the better car. I have heard many of the DACs in that SINAD league table and the unpalatable truth for ASR is that they simply do not sound anywhere near as good as Dave. ASR doesn’t ’do’ proper listening and in any case his perfunctory listening with Dave was all headphones which is of no relevance for me because I do not own any.

SINAD ranking is OK for a bit of Primary School playground banter (my Dad’s car has a higher top speed than your Dad’s car, My Dad’s DAC has a better SINAD rating than your Dad’s  DAC, etc) but it is no way to choose which DAC to buy.



adrianm said:


> I'm absolutely fine with that, it's a 7 year old device, and I only care about measurements up to a point. Have no intention of debating measurements or fr graphs.
> It was sota at the time. It can be had for a significant discount, and I haven't heard anything else cheaper that's better to my ears, or I would've bought it.


The only thing I would add to what you say is that to my ears Dave still stands up to and beats the sound quality of many DACs which are quite a bit more expensive.

Measurements are interesting up to a point but it appears that they still cannot predict which DAC sounds better than another. I had personal experience of this a couple of months back when I wanted a DAC for a second system and thought I could rely on the excellent measurements for the Holo May DAC and bought a L2 version. I tried everything I could to make it sound good and in the end I sold it and bought a second hand Dave instead.


----------



## griff500 (Jul 24, 2022)

Has he ever done a review where he doesn’t get different results on each channel?

He didn’t perform a proper listening test because nobody else does… 

I don’t think anyone will be surprised that he thinks a $150 DAC performs as well or better…


----------



## DJW50

AlephAlpha001 said:


> Y’all could quit moaning and upgrade to a Qutest. Just saying


Your comment made me smile, as a Qutest owner who will some time in the future get hold of a DAVE to do what I always do, stick it in my system and if it wows me buy it if doesn't like 6 other DAC's to date it will go back for a refund. And that to me is far more important than graphs
I did watch a couple of ASR's Youtube presentations and decided not to bother watching anymore, he reminds me of a politician in our country called Nigel Farage who at best is just a disruptor. Youtube is a good vehicle for presentations of every form but there is an awful lot of rubbish too.


----------



## alxw0w

Triode User said:


> ASR doesn’t ’do’ proper listening


Unfortunately Amir is not able to do so. He was not hearing difference between hd600 and hd650, to him they are the same.
Which of course is false as even Axel Grell admitted that these are different headphones. (As everybody with decent hearing knows this. After hearing both, and you know it right away it's nothing hard to spot)


----------



## flyte3333

adrianm said:


> They're just covering a niche market.



Have you read ASR's measurements of Molo Mola DAC? Priced similar to Dave

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-mola-tambaqui-dac-and-streamer-review.10770/

He focuses on measurements.


----------



## adrianm

flyte3333 said:


> Have you read ASR's measurements of Molo Mola DAC? Priced similar to Dave
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-mola-tambaqui-dac-and-streamer-review.10770/
> 
> He focuses on measurements.


No, but I know it since it came out. Some reviewers subjectively preferred Dave, I have no ways of auditioning it, so I never bothered. Also, I didn't pay anywhere close to that for my (new) Dave. 
 One of the key features of Dave which I love, is the crossfeed implementation. As such, I only see myself replacing it with a dCS Lina, since they have their own Expanse feature, which is supposedly even better. Headphone listening without a good DSP crossfeed is just a no-go for me. The ones done in amps i've heard is a joke. Even though it probably also measures slightly worse, that matters a lot more to me.


----------



## flyte3333 (Jul 24, 2022)

adrianm said:


> No, but I know it since it came out. Some reviewers subjectively preferred Dave, I have no ways of auditioning it, so I never bothered. Also, I didn't pay anywhere close to that for my (new) Dave.
> One of the key features of Dave which I love, is the crossfeed implementation. As such, I only see myself replacing it with a dCS Lina, since they have their own Expanse feature, which is supposedly even better. Headphone listening without a good DSP crossfeed is just a no-go for me. The ones done in amps i've heard is a joke. Even though it probably also measures slightly worse, that matters a lot more to me.



Ok but some people argue that he favours cheap Chinese over 'high end'.. 'niche markets' -  ASR's Mola Mola measurements puts that argument away.

People seem to just look at the brand he reviews, the price and then scroll to the bottom to his conclusion.

And ignore everything in the middle (APx555 measurements)


----------



## adrianm

flyte3333 said:


> Ok but some people argue that he favours cheap Chinese over 'high end'.. 'niche markets' -  ASR's Mola Mola measurements puts that argument away.
> 
> People seem to just look at the brand he reviews, the price and then scroll to the bottom to his conclusion.
> 
> And ignore everything in the middle (APx555 measurements)


*"Conclusions*
The Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC shows again that _*just because a DAC is designed from ground up, it need not perform poorly*_. It is actually the opposite with it performing at the top of the class with respect to distortion and noise."

I'm sorry, does this not just scream bias to you?


----------



## zen87192

Does anyone own a Grimm Audio MU1 going through a DAVE here? I'd love to gain your thoughts on this Setup.


----------



## flyte3333

adrianm said:


> I'm sorry, does this not just scream bias to you?



This is interesting.

Where is the bias ?

Plus why do people care what his opinion is? I ignore it and look at the measurements

Mola Mola is similarly priced to Dave and measures better.


----------



## 801evan

I doubt any Dave owners here bought it due to how it measures.... Such ppl are free to buy a topping d90, mola mola tambaqui and Holo audio may and hang a print out of their how well they bench.and Amir's conclusion silkscreened to a cotton cover.


----------



## adrianm (Jul 24, 2022)

flyte3333 said:


> This is interesting.
> 
> Where is the bias ?
> 
> ...


"Sally may be a woman, but she is a surprisingly good driver". I would move on to more obvious examples, but that would surely get me banned  If you don't see it, you don't see it. Like i said, feel free to to only look at measurements, i don't. Mola Mola also came out 5 years after Dave. It's mind boggling to me how people overlook these facts.


----------



## adrianm

zen87192 said:


> Does anyone own a Grimm Audio MU1 going through a DAVE here? I'd love to gain your thoughts on this Setup.


@TheAttorney


----------



## SteveHulk

People viewing this thread...

373 (members: 32, guests: 341)

I have never seen such numbers before. I wonder where all these "guests" came from.


----------



## adrianm (Jul 24, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> People viewing this thread...
> 
> 373 (members: 32, guests: 341)
> 
> I have never seen such numbers before. I wonder where all these "guests" came from.


I'm already bored, but people can feel free to entertain the visiting ASR delegation 
Just pointed this out to my gf, she's surprised there's so many people with nothing to do on a Sunday afternoon.


----------



## 801evan

350 ppl convincing themselves they don't need a Dave to save them some money.


----------



## DJW50

I've just noticed the same thing is being posted on Facebook Chord owners page. My reply, Yawn. I guess these guys are running a charm offensive.


----------



## TheAttorney

zen87192 said:


> Does anyone own a Grimm Audio MU1 going through a DAVE here? I'd love to gain your thoughts on this Setup.


I have the MU1 direct to DAVE via an AES cable. Fantastic combination. My full story is in the Grimm MU1 thread over at AS.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

flyte3333 said:


> Certainly not performing state of the art though, and given the price.
> 
> DAC chips and implementations have come a long way since Rob worked on them decades ago.



When Rob started out quite a long time ago now things were obviously different and I can see his reasoning for wanting to do a custom design back then but as you say things have progressed in the digital world very quickly and a lot of gear (far cheaper) measures better using off the shelf chip. Are these off the shelf components as bad as were lead to believe or is it all about implementation?


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

chesebert said:


> I agree the measured performance is not sota.
> 
> I am sensitive to pre and post ringing - sounds like high frequency hash and “digital” sounds. This is the kind of graph I look for in a dac.



isn't ringing inaudible? it would make sense because when listening to the Mojo2 the treble is very clean but I also find it shrill and fatiguing.


----------



## jlbrach

DJW50 said:


> Does anyone think that Chord will offer a low voltage input on a new of model DAVE at a later date? considering the large number of people who have taken the matter into their own hands.
> I'm planning on buying a DAVE to replace my Qutest in the future and I'm only half way there cash wise. I'm seriously thinking of holding back the purchase of the DAVE until a new model comes out.
> I wonder how long I may have to wait, I'm more than happy with the Qutest and the MCRU LPS at the moment but having looked at Youtube reviews of Holo May and tried a number of other DACS which have all gone back for a refund I have decided I will buy a DAVE at some stage in the future, I certainly don't want to buy one next year having saved only to find a new model coming out a few months after I buy one.


I think you will be waiting a long time for a new version of dave, it seems clear the upgrades come via the upscaler


----------



## jlbrach

Hooster said:


> Looks like DAVE just got it's ass handed to it,
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-dave-review-dac-hp-amp.35974/


seriously anyone who wastes their time on this site really shouldnt...this is a site that seems to exist to tell us most any high end audio product is a waste of money and we should buy a 300 dollar item instead..


----------



## jlbrach

adrianm said:


> So what is the best dac in the world? People have been saying it's MSB or Vivaldi. Amir is free to take a crack at those 100k dacs and tell us his shocking revelations.
> You can argue, just because it measures better doesn't make it better. For example the THX amplifier tech sounds a bit horrendous, even though it does bottom out APx555. I tried to like it, but It doesn't sound natural, even on the HPA4, which is better than the Toppings ASR loves to push. Just like people saying the Harman target is the ideal just because a percentage of people voted on it sounding best to them.
> People need to stop taking what Amir, Rob, or anyone else says like gospel. Especially in fields where they lack a basic understanding. That just leads to a cult, not some authority on anything.
> I'm sure most people here don't get a feeling a superiority from owning Dave (There's cars and watches for that)  so I think the more pressing concern is why do ASR folks get such a dopamine rush out of these supposed "takedowns"? It's a frenzy over there every time.


no matter what he measures he will in the end tell us a topping or other budget item is better so what is the point?


----------



## chesebert

AnalogEuphoria said:


> isn't ringing inaudible? it would make sense because when listening to the Mojo2 the treble is very clean but I also find it shrill and fatiguing.


Depending on the person obviously. I hear pre and post ringing as high frequency artifact, sibilance, “digital” sounding reproduction.


----------



## 801evan

Ringing is quite audible... otherwise we wouldn't have to deal with it.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

chesebert said:


> Depending on the person obviously. I hear pre and post ringing as high frequency artifact, sibilance, “digital” sounding reproduction.



Interesting because when I change out the mojo the sibilance is gone.


----------



## chesebert (Jul 24, 2022)

AnalogEuphoria said:


> Interesting because when I change out the mojo the sibilance is gone.


What did you replace mojo2 with?


----------



## alxw0w (Jul 24, 2022)

AnalogEuphoria said:


> Interesting because when I change out the mojo the sibilance is gone.


Were you using mojo with USB input?


----------



## Chester Rockwell

I wonder why Amir hasn’t yet managed to measure his Mark Levinson amps 🤔


----------



## chesebert

Chester Rockwell said:


> I wonder why Amir hasn’t yet managed to measure his Mark Levinson amps 🤔


I thought he measured his 360 and said it was meh.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

alxw0w said:


> Were you using mojo with USB input?



Optical


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

chesebert said:


> What did you replace mojo2 with?



Its not a replacement but the other dac (CD player) in comparison is the Audiolab 8300CDQ


----------



## alxw0w

AnalogEuphoria said:


> Optical


Ok and headphones? Or you are using speakers?


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Headphones (HD650) and speakers (Wharfedale Diamond 12) the sibilance is still there, If I swap out to a Modi3E it disappears as well but the Audiolab is the smoothest, seems to be the mojo2 itself. Extra clarity at the expense of harshness?


----------



## DJJEZ

Hooster said:


> Looks like DAVE just got it's ass handed to it,
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-dave-review-dac-hp-amp.35974/


My reaction everytime amir posts one of his reviews. It's literally comedy reading what he writes.

'It is bested easily by DACs at $150'


----------



## pichler

It is a couple of months since I changed the TT2 with the Dave, I use it in a 2 channel system. I like the sound result a lot, it gives for me the "home" effect. Accuracy, detail, timbre, and as you know better than me ....... Premise: I have a very normal electrical system at home, nothing dedicated, I use the supplied power cables. I noticed that during the working hours the sound gets worse and not a little. From 8 pm to 8 am and on weekends, especially on Sundays the sound result is simply wonderful. What do you advise me to do? Can a mains filter help me?

Can someone please tell me how can I show my devices on messages?


----------



## Chester Rockwell

chesebert said:


> I thought he measured his 360 and said it was meh.



I’ve seen no review of his own extortionate amplifiers…..why would that be….


----------



## chesebert

Chester Rockwell said:


> I’ve seen no review of his own extortionate amplifiers…..why would that be….


Who cares. He runs some basic tests and ranks dacs based on dynamic range. You can safely ignore his listening impressions and conclusions and focus just on the test results. Good results don’t mean good reproduction and bad results mean there are engineering issues and may or may not be audible.


----------



## chesebert

pichler said:


> It is a couple of months since I changed the TT2 with the Dave, I use it in a 2 channel system. I like the sound result a lot, it gives for me the "home" effect. Accuracy, detail, timbre, and as you know better than me ....... Premise: I have a very normal electrical system at home, nothing dedicated, I use the supplied power cables. I noticed that during the working hours the sound gets worse and not a little. From 8 pm to 8 am and on weekends, especially on Sundays the sound result is simply wonderful. What do you advise me to do? Can a mains filter help me?
> 
> Can someone please tell me how can I show my devices on messages?


Sounds about right. You can try various filter, isolation transformer, AC regenerator and dedicated switch or any combination. YMMV.


----------



## Chester Rockwell

chesebert said:


> Who cares. He runs some basic tests and ranks dacs based on dynamic range. You can safely ignore his listening impressions and conclusions and focus just on the test results. Good results don’t mean good reproduction and bad results mean there are engineering issues and may or may not be audible.



It is very naive to think you can focus on the test results of a single person without question. If someone was on a quest to slay big hifi companies, fleecing people, why would they not measure thier own high priced amplifiers? 🤔
There’s a story behind the story here but it’s not mine to tell. 

This is only stereo equipment at the end of the day, no need to get too tribal about it.


----------



## SteveHulk

pichler said:


> It is a couple of months since I changed the TT2 with the Dave, I use it in a 2 channel system. I like the sound result a lot, it gives for me the "home" effect. Accuracy, detail, timbre, and as you know better than me ....... Premise: I have a very normal electrical system at home, nothing dedicated, I use the supplied power cables. I noticed that during the working hours the sound gets worse and not a little. From 8 pm to 8 am and on weekends, especially on Sundays the sound result is simply wonderful. What do you advise me to do? Can a mains filter help me?
> 
> Can someone please tell me how can I show my devices on messages?


A mains filter might have only a marginal effect as these are passive devices. You probably need a mains regenerator. This takes the mains, in crude terms in effect basically using it to power a high-quality oscillator which is effectively used as the input of a power amplifier. Your kit is then fed mains voltage and frequency from that amplifier.

The mains itself in general has three major defects: high frequency random noise picked up from external sources, distortion in what is supposed to be a sinusoidal waveform, and drifting frequency.

The first is omnipresent, the others are a function of the loading on the grid. It seems that as you have noticed a degradation in sound quality at certain times of the day only then it is the last two that are most likely bothering your system.

To fix these a regenerator is the way to go. They tend to be a lot more expensive than conditioners/filters.

You can also consider a DIY battery and inverter. That way you can have a go at nailing all three problems.


----------



## SteveHulk

pichler said:


> Can someone please tell me how can I show my devices on messages?


Tap on your profile icon at the top of the page and then tap "signature" - it should be easy from there.


----------



## chesebert (Jul 24, 2022)

Chester Rockwell said:


> It is very naive to think you can focus on the test results of a single person without question. If someone was on a quest to slay big hifi companies, fleecing people, why would they not measure thier own high priced amplifiers? 🤔
> There’s a story behind the story here but it’s not mine to tell.
> 
> This is only stereo equipment at the end of the day, no need to get too tribal about it.


if Amir and ASR were overtly shilling for some brands, than HF is full on hifi marketing platform with certain members (both mot and non-mot, including a number of professional reviewers, YouTubers and influencers not registered as mot) openly and overtly shilling for various brands. Everyone is trying to make a buck (off of you) these days.


----------



## alxw0w

AnalogEuphoria said:


> Headphones (HD650) and speakers (Wharfedale Diamond 12) the sibilance is still there, If I swap out to a Modi3E it disappears as well but the Audiolab is the smoothest, seems to be the mojo2 itself. Extra clarity at the expense of harshness?


That's thing with resolving gear, it's double edged sword type situation.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

alxw0w said:


> That's thing with resolving gear, it's double edged sword type situation.



I think id rather take the smoothest sound then, I don't see the point in pin sharp accuracy under a microscope if its less pleasant and more fatiguing. It is meant to be fun after all. Don't get me wrong the treble clarity is impressive from chord but I want to listen for a long time.


----------



## theveterans

AnalogEuphoria said:


> Headphones (HD650) and speakers (Wharfedale Diamond 12) the sibilance is still there, If I swap out to a Modi3E it disappears as well but the Audiolab is the smoothest, seems to be the mojo2 itself. Extra clarity at the expense of harshness?



Could be jitter issues or dirty USB since Mojo 2 does not have a built-in USB reclocker and galvanic isolation like the Modi3E (Schiit Unison USB). I would certainly try a decent transport before making a final judgment


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

theveterans said:


> Could be jitter issues or dirty USB since Mojo 2 does not have a built-in USB reclocker and galvanic isolation like the Modi3E (Schiit Unison USB). I would certainly try a decent transport before making a final judgment



Im not using usb im using optical and it sounds the same from all sources, my headphones and speakers have exceptionally smooth treble and haven't encountered this issue with any music until mojo2.


----------



## Kentajalli

AnalogEuphoria said:


> Im not using usb im using optical and it sounds the same from all sources, my headphones and speakers have exceptionally smooth treble and haven't encountered this issue with any music until mojo2.


You are sure you have not activated DSP by mistake?


----------



## protoss

Saw the latest reports. Love it ❤️ 

DAVE should cost $130. 

Chord the scammers. 😄 🤣


----------



## max232

SteveHulk said:


> People viewing this thread...
> 
> 373 (members: 32, guests: 341)
> 
> I have never seen such numbers before. I wonder where all these "guests" came from.


For the same reason that people slow down to look at a car crash I guess. Misery loves company.


----------



## AndrewOld

Why the difference in measurements between channels?


----------



## protoss (Jul 24, 2022)

@max232

Or a company that thinks it is summit-fi has just been exposed as con artist?
Incompetent builders?
Taking advantage of gullible people money?

Ever thought about it this way? 🤔

Btw to everyone, this is actually healthy. It's informing new comers and new builders to play fair and just work hard to achieve great things.


----------



## griff500

protoss said:


> @max232
> 
> Or a company that thinks it is summit-fi has just been exposed as con artist?
> Incompetent builders?
> ...


I have no idea how you come to such conclusions. Con artist? Incompetent? 

You feel that it’s ok to throw around comments of that nature? 

The anonymity of the internet really brings out the worst in people.


----------



## protoss (Jul 24, 2022)

griff500 said:


> You feel that it’s ok to throw around comments of that nature?


Yes, sure? It's a company? A "it."
Not a person.

Noticed you have a M-scaler and Dave. 

So yeah, you have been duped. Those two items are next to trash in performance. 

*M-Scaler *is actually producing distortion to your source and gear. It is actually making everything worse.
*DAVE *is performing at a $150 level. That's a disgrace.


----------



## griff500

protoss said:


> Yes, sure? It's a company? A "it."
> Not a person.
> 
> Noticed you have a M-scaler and Dave.
> ...


Oh dear.


----------



## protoss

griff500 said:


> Oh dear.


----------



## Arnold Schwartz




----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Kentajalli said:


> You are sure you have not activated DSP by mistake?



EQ is disabled


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

subjectivity aside does this make qutest the best performer?


----------



## Sampajanna (Jul 24, 2022)

The ASR crowd stirs up trouible everywhere they go, making forums unfriendly and not fun. You could call it a two-sided affair and say that maybe their opinion just isnt respected on other forums. But then they created their own forum and it is more toxic than any audio website on earth.


----------



## Arnold Schwartz

@GoldenOne measured the Dave as well, I did a quick comparison of ASR and GoldenOne - they looked similar to my untrained eye.


----------



## dougq (Jul 24, 2022)

They generally provide subjective observations at the end, but in general these are just technical reviews with what we / they have available to judge audio equipment. 
Now some people take it as some kind of defining fact you should feel embarrassed for owning a specific device.  In the end you should and can enjoy what you already own.  If it makes you happy and feel satisfied, should you care about its technical performance?  It's your money, not anyone else's. 

At the same time don't get defensive and offended when a device you own has objectively poor performance.  It is what it is.


----------



## Hooster

protoss said:


> @max232
> 
> Or a company that thinks it is summit-fi has just been exposed as con artist?
> Incompetent builders?
> ...



DAVE is indisputably summit-fi. No one is being conned. The price is what it is and a DAC for that price is summit hi fi, regardless of how it sounds and measures. DAVE also looks pretty cool. 

That being said, if you think that summit prices necessarily mean you will get better sound quality than something that costs 10 times or more less you have probably misunderstood something. 

Chord should be congratulated on the reputation they have built and their fine marketing.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Hooster said:


> DAVE is indisputably summit-fi. No one is being conned. The price is what it is and a DAC for that price is summit hi fi, regardless of how it sounds and measures. DAVE also looks pretty cool.
> 
> That being said, if you think that summit prices necessarily mean you will get better sound quality than something that costs 10 times or more less you have probably misunderstood something.
> 
> Chord should be congratulated on the reputation they have built and their fine marketing.


It’s related to reviews, or at least it was for me. Chord gets amazing reviews from “professional” websites and publications.  It’s what first attracted me to the Hugo 2 then the TT2 and then the DAVE.  If you use reviews to help make decisions, it’s hard to not be intrigued by Chord products.  Many major publications have the Chord DAVE on their best of lists, even to this day.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Except not everybody can get in home demos, or demos in general (due to no HiFi stores in their area), so reviews are sometimes the only datapoint one can use.    I’m not convinced by measurements personally, as I’m not convinced they accurately represent what I’m hearing. So what is one to do?


----------



## 801evan

Ciggavelli said:


> Except not everybody can get in home demos, or demos in general (due to no HiFi stores in their area), so reviews are sometimes the only datapoint one can use.    I’m not convinced by measurements personally, as I’m not convinced they accurately represent what I’m hearing. So what is one to do?


This implies an expectation of after some self research on the internet, one will be in a position of buy and forget in this hobby. That's what these measurement platforms is pretending to be but they are just creating trouble and fulfill an agenda. Even Goldensound would use SINAD as an argument when he himself says it doesn't explain anything/everything.


----------



## chesebert (Jul 24, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> Except not everybody can get in home demos, or demos in general (due to no HiFi stores in their area), so reviews are sometimes the only datapoint one can use.    I’m not convinced by measurements personally, as I’m not convinced they accurately represent what I’m hearing. So what is one to do?


CanJam 

Good measurements don’t guarantee  good sound and bad measurements indicate engineering or manufacturing issues but may or may not be audible.


----------



## Ciggavelli

chesebert said:


> CanJam
> 
> Good measurements don’t guarantee  good sound and bad measurements indicate engineering or manufacturing issues but may or may not be audible.


I’m definitely prioritizing going to a Can Jam in the future. It’d be a fun trip.   That said the likelihood of them pairing the dac I’m interested in with my amp(s), cables, conditioner, streamer and headphones is very unlikely. I need to move to a new city in a new state, where I can get in home demos. I envy those in UK who can return anything within a timespan and get their full money back.


----------



## chesebert (Jul 25, 2022)

You only need 20-30mw max to reach 85db SPL using Susvara from a pure technical perspective - based on pure spec you only really need 4mw @.49v


----------



## 801evan (Jul 25, 2022)

chesebert said:


> You only need 20-30mw to reach 85db SPL using Susvara from a pure technical perspective.


Correct. Not only a technical perspective but even in real life  situation and practical terms. What is a user error is being projected as poor design by the manufacturer. 😂


----------



## alphaman (Jul 25, 2022)

Arnold Schwartz said:


>



Yeah .... Amir ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED Watts and Co. with the latest video and ASR review.
What's weird is how many of ASR members actually have acquired (bought??) products that they send into Amir's lab ... only to have him tear it to pieces in his reviews. One would think that the mentality of ASR membership would _never purchase such items to begin with_ ... mostly settling on low-priced Chinese stuff like Topping or SMSL.
Very strange!


----------



## BassicScience

alphaman said:


> Yeah .... Amir ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED Watts and Co. with the latest video and ASR review.
> What's weird is how many of ASR members actually have acquired (bought??) products that they send into Amir's lab ... only to have him tear it to pieces in his reviews. *One would think that the mentality of ASR membership would *_*never purchase such items to begin with*_ ... mostly settling or low-priced Chinese stuff like Topping or SMSL.
> Very strange!


The M Scaler and DAVE under test were purchased by a gentleman of means in the context of a system assembled by someone else. Said gentleman listened to the system as a whole and thought it sounded great, and therefore simply bought it. He stated he knew very little about audio gear at that time (about two years ago). Subsequently, he became interested in learning more about the individual gear in the system, and also stated that he became aware that he couldn't really discern a difference with the M Scaler in or out of the system. At that point, he decided to send the M Scaler to ASR for testing/review. Subsequently, he also sent the DAVE to ASR.

I'm not intending to participate in any further discussions on Head-Fi about the technical or sonic merits of Chord gear, because they seem to go absolutely nowhere of use, but I thought I'd provide some context for your hypothesis above.


----------



## rkt31

Dave measured by ASR and GS. ASR showed one channel having noise modulation but GS did not. 114 db sinad is not bad in any case. Imo main attribute of chord dacs is filtering and thus better timing of transients. May be later dacs like tt2 have better sinad but then tt2 not measured yet.


----------



## chesebert

I honestly think Rob is BSing us with his “timing transient” claims. Did he invent this term?


----------



## 801evan

chesebert said:


> I honestly think Rob is BSing us with his “timing transient” claims. Did he invent this term?


I mean....then just don't buy it.

You can search all the posts RW has made vs taking time away from him having to personally address these.


----------



## chesebert

801evan said:


> I mean....then just don't buy it.
> 
> You can search all the posts RW has made vs taking time away from him having to personally address these.


That’s fair.


----------



## alphaman

Frankly, I'm amused by ALL these CLOWNS. Some may be genuine objectivists. Some may be genuine subjectivists. Some may be genuine trolls. 
After all, like the 90s cliche noted: "This is the internet."
Anyway, what confuses me most about Rob Watt's presentations is that he seems to be the one-rat subjective tester ("testee") for Chord digital. In his RMAF presentations, the subjective tests he notes are always from the singular-pronoun perspective. "I" listened ... "I" tested. To "me" it sound as if .... Etc. Never have I heard Mr. Watts mention some sort of PANEL or GROUP subjective analysis, say in a Chord HQ listening room. Hell, even getting a group of Joe -6 packs off the street to come into Chord HQ ... free beer and vape ... and let's do some fun tests to see if y'all can heard this [A: 100 taps]  or this [B: 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 taps] on this latest n' greatest DAC playin' "Me So Horny" by The 2-Live Crew.


----------



## Triode User

rkt31 said:


> Dave measured by ASR and GS. ASR showed one channel having noise modulation but GS did not. 114 db sinad is not bad in any case. Imo main attribute of chord dacs is filtering and thus better timing of transients. *May be later dacs like tt2 have better sinad but then tt2 not measured yet.*


That Dave is a used item sent in by an ASR forum member. Who knows whether it has been abused but it should be returned to Chord under warranty for repair and then retested.

Regarding your mention of the TT2 and its possible SINAD this is completely in the 'so what' category because the Dave sounds considerably better than the TT2. We don't need measurements to know that, just a pair of ears.

(by the way I am just part way through a podcast on the subject of the usefulness of measurements from about 2 weeks ago by Darko with GS as a guest and amongst other things the clear conclusion is that SINAD is no better method of ranking a DAC than it is to try to rank cars by stating their engine horse power)


----------



## SteveHulk

alphaman said:


> Anyway, what confuses me most about Rob Watt's presentations is that he seems to be the one-rat subjective tester ("testee") for Chord digital. In his RMAF presentations, the subjective tests he notes are always from the singular-pronoun perspective. "I" listened ... "I" tested. To "me" it sound as if .... Etc. Never have I heard Mr. Watts mention some sort of PANEL or GROUP subjective analysis, say in a Chord HQ listening room.


This is actually a good point.


----------



## 801evan (Jul 25, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> This is actually a good point.





alphaman said:


> Frankly, I'm amused by ALL these CLOWNS. Some may be genuine objectivists. Some may be genuine subjectivists. Some may be genuine trolls.
> After all, like the 90s cliche noted: "This is the internet."
> Anyway, what confuses me most about Rob Watt's presentations is that he seems to be the one-rat subjective tester ("testee") for Chord digital. In his RMAF presentations, the subjective tests he notes are always from the singular-pronoun perspective. "I" listened ... "I" tested. To "me" it sound as if .... Etc. Never have I heard Mr. Watts mention some sort of PANEL or GROUP subjective analysis, say in a Chord HQ listening room. Hell, even getting a group of Joe -6 packs off the street to come into Chord HQ ... free beer and vape ... and let's do some fun tests to see if y'all can heard this [A: 100 taps]  or this [B: 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 taps] on this latest n' greatest DAC playin' "Me So Horny" by The 2-Live Crew.


On the flip side the Harman curve is being dissed because these "audiophile" head-fiers claim it's just a bunch of random people and what do they know just because the curve doesn't fit their preference and bias and is now making a new claim that Susvara FR is more Harman than Harman. You can't win. 😂😂😂

I'll also take the one subjective tester approach any day over what Schitt is doing which is pandering to the consumer. It shows they can't defend their work.


----------



## Malcyg

I find it amusing how people respond to any comments that are less than effusive about their own beloved gear. It’s only opinions after all and if someone expresses an opinion that differs from our own, then it doesn’t mean that either one of us is wrong. For example, Dave cannot fully engage Susvara sure, but to say that is not a criticism of Dave. If anything, it is a criticism of Susvara for being so difficult to optimise. The comment could equally be applied to any DAC I’ve ever heard so I don’t understand why Dave owners react so negatively to such a comment nor why Susvara owners even bother to say it other than to maybe provoke a reaction.


----------



## flyte3333

Chester Rockwell said:


> It is very naive to think you can focus on the test results of a single person without question. I


It's been mentioned numerous times, ASR's DAVE measurements are very similar to GoldenOne's

So it's not single person's test results

Unless you imply both GoldenOne and Amir have an agenda against Rob ?

The measurements are the measurements.

I don't expect any Dave owners to be able to be neutral in this discussion.

If you don't care about measurements thats 100% cool

But if someone owns a Dave and doubts these measurements and GoldenOne's, well its obvious bias.



Currawong said:


> How to make money from peoples' ignorance:
> 1. Claim to be doing "science", so that you can deflect any criticism by a general appeal to authority, even though that is not how science works.
> 2. Make simple, sweeping declarations about what is "good" and what is "bad".
> 3. Cosy up with companies that are willing to make money supporting #2 in their designs.
> ...



ASR's measurements are very similar to @GoldenOne 's

The results are good but not state of the art in 2022.


----------



## Rob Watts

Reactcore said:


> Hi @Rob Watts
> 
> What is the story behind this SMA reservation near Dave's display header..
> Was there once a Bluetooth function planned for Dave?



I can't remember if there ever was a BT function envisioned for Dave as it's a feature I would have strongly reacted against. And I can't remember why an SMA connector was put down on the prototype; but I left the SMA in in case I wanted to add another clock or have a port for testing purposes.  Remember Dave took nearly 3 years to develop with plenty of prototypes on the way. You always add just in case extra functionality, with plenty of redundant bit switches and spare IO.



RustyGates said:


> The measured results of the DAVE seems to vary a lot throughout the past 7ish years and between reviewers, particularly over the recent years with APx555 rigs. ASR measured the Qutest to be equivalent if not better than DAVE. The question is what does Rob think about this?



I honestly don't know why other reviewers do not get the same results as I do - and every Dave I have tested measured the same. I once was very perplexed with the Stereophile review of Dave, as some measurements looked fatally wrong. When I got the unit back it measured perfectly, with a DR of 127dB (A Wt with the reference set to the max 1% OP level of 6.75v) and the measurement of 16 bit levels absolutely perfect. John Atkinson 16 bit plot gave awful results - and I never got to the bottom of why. 



flyte3333 said:


> Yeh fair enough, i would never critique someobody's personal preference.
> 
> At the end of the day it is still good performance (ignoring price, even 2nd hand).
> 
> ...



Sure other DACs have managed to get closer to Dave over the last 7 years and some measurements are better (noise for example).

Noise is irrelevant if it's inaudible and fixed - which will be the case for Dave.

But - and this is a big but, it depends what you measure and how you interpret the importance of those measurements - in terms of noise floor modulation (nobody else measures for) Dave I firmly expect to be still the no 1. And interpolation filters that are min phase, NOS or show slow roll off (all of the filters in all other DACs) to me are fundamentally broken and not fit for purpose.



protoss said:


> Yes, sure? It's a company? A "it."
> Not a person.
> 
> Noticed you have a M-scaler and Dave.
> ...



I am an it then? Dave (excepting the metalwork) is my baby.

And on the same week-end that ASR was published, What Hi-Fi (a magazine which Chord do not advertise with) published their list of 16 best DACs. Chord had five of them - all of Chord's DAC product range. And Dave has continued to achieve countless awards in respectable professional websites and magazines. Have all of these journalists been duped too?  



chesebert said:


> You are wrong. Bit depth represents max dynamic range of a signal. Dave has about 110db of max dynamic range therefore the max bit depth it is able to resolve is 18 bits. You are thinking of input bit depth which is different from what the dac is able to actually resolve.
> 
> You have been in this hobby as long/longer than I have. I’m shocked you didn’t know this.



My Dave measurements are -127dB Awt referenced to the 6.75v max output level. That would make it 21 bits.



chesebert said:


> I honestly think Rob is BSing us with his “timing transient” claims. Did he invent this term?



Given that transients are an essential cue for the brain to create the audible illusion, it's no great leap of faith to state that a DAC must reconstruct transients to eliminate timing errors - that is ensuring that transients are reconstructed without being seemingly randomly too early or too late. It is also obvious that interpolation filters will modulate the timing of transients and create these kind of errors. The only contentious aspect is the level of transient timing reconstruction accuracy that is needed, and how the interpolation filter is optimised. And that depends upon huge amounts of listening tests, something that filter designers do not do at all.

Well after you and I have left this mortal coil, I am convinced that in the future it will be de rigour to design high end interpolation filters with transient reconstruction accuracy being the no 1 priority. Just because I am the only one to talk about it or realise the importance of it does not make it wrong.



alphaman said:


> Frankly, I'm amused by ALL these CLOWNS. Some may be genuine objectivists. Some may be genuine subjectivists. Some may be genuine trolls.
> After all, like the 90s cliche noted: "This is the internet."
> Anyway, what confuses me most about Rob Watt's presentations is that he seems to be the one-rat subjective tester ("testee") for Chord digital. In his RMAF presentations, the subjective tests he notes are always from the singular-pronoun perspective. "I" listened ... "I" tested. To "me" it sound as if .... Etc. Never have I heard Mr. Watts mention some sort of PANEL or GROUP subjective analysis, say in a Chord HQ listening room. Hell, even getting a group of Joe -6 packs off the street to come into Chord HQ ... free beer and vape ... and let's do some fun tests to see if y'all can heard this [A: 100 taps]  or this [B: 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 taps] on this latest n' greatest DAC playin' "Me So Horny" by The 2-Live Crew.



My designs are about making the performance as accurate and transparent as possible to the original performance *as I hear it*. If others do not perceive as I do then so be it, I am not bothered. Thankfully there are very many people who agree with me and are prepared to spend their own money on it - something that I am grateful for, which is why I spend so much time on these threads.

Another aspect is that often thousands of specific and detailed listening tests are involved, that is simply not possible with a panel.

And I am not a testee for Chord - I am entirely independent and own all of the IP that goes into my designs.



Triode User said:


> I think the Dave owes its success and sound quality to a balancing act between the different and sometimes conflicting design parameters and consequent measurements when putting together the total package to get the best sound. A ‘review’ such as ASR does not take this into account because they focus on simplistic headline measurements such as SINAD which are easy to present in a league table.
> 
> However such a league table does not produce a correct ranking for sound quality. It is a bit like ranking cars based on maximum speed and 0 to 60 times. It is interesting and a bit of fun but ultimately it really doesn’t say which is the better car. I have heard many of the DACs in that SINAD league table and the unpalatable truth for ASR is that they simply do not sound anywhere near as good as Dave. ASR doesn’t ’do’ proper listening and in any case his perfunctory listening with Dave was all headphones which is of no relevance for me because I do not own any.
> 
> ...



Actually SINAD is worthless as a useful measurement parameter - at least 0 to 60 does give you one important idea for a car. It's more like measuring the length of a vehicle, as a two seat sports car is much better than a long truck, and then ranking cars solely on their length.

The reason why it's useless is that a DAC with a completely fixed noise level of say -100dB (giving SINAD of 100dB) measured in the context of the way it's being used, would give inaudible noise in reality. If this DAC was perfect in every other regard (no distortion etc) and was compared to a DAC at -120dB noise (giving 120 SINAD), and also perfect in every other regard, the listener would not be able to hear any difference whatsoever. But a DAC that had SINAD of 120 dB but with copious amounts of higher order and anharmonic distortion, noise floor modulation and poor reconstruction filters, would sound terrible by comparison to the lowly 100dB SINAD DAC.


----------



## alxw0w (Jul 25, 2022)

flyte3333 said:


> It's been mentioned numerous times, ASR's DAVE measurements are very similar to GoldenOne's
> 
> So it's not single person's test results
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if anybody is questioning measurements here.
(other than some strange noise modulation and channel difference that was not present in goldens measurements. Which could be caused by some malfunction in the unit)


----------



## GoldenOne

flyte3333 said:


> It's been mentioned numerous times, ASR's DAVE measurements are very similar to GoldenOne's
> 
> So it's not single person's test results
> 
> ...


My measurements for the DAVE largely align with Amir's. Some small differences but to be expected when testing different units in different places etc etc.

I don't however agree with his conclusion, for several reasons.

Firstly: SINAD alone is a seriously poor metric to evaluate the quality of a DAC.
Even for very basic reasons like the fact that if you do not apply at least -3dB of digital headroom to a DAC, it becomes susceptible to intersample over clipping.
Because of this, Chord, RME, Benchmark and various other companies will keep that headroom because it's important to do so. The downside being that you are then sacrificing about 3dB of SINAD.

Compare the Benchmark DAC3B with the Gustard X18 in this test:

Gustard X18:





Clipping to hell and back, lots of unwanted distortion.

Vs DAC3B:





Much better! No clipping at all, cause it has the proper headroom.
And yet if we were to go based only off SINAD the X18 would be the clear winner and there'd be no need to look at any other behaviour.

Additionally in the instance of the DAVE there are things like jitter performance being absolutely amazing, or the reconstruction filter being to my knowledge the best inbuilt option available in any DAC, even many years after its release.

SINAD is a good thing to look at to get a quick indication of if it's going to have some sort of big problem or not, but when looking at dacs over 110dB or whatever, honestly choosing to go based off SINAD alone rather than looking at other areas of performance seems incredibly odd.

There are also other areas of performance such as noise shapers which you actually cannot measure at the output of a device because it's impossible to separate analog noise from quantization noise. You have to simulate it mathematically.

Point is, if you're JUST going off SINAD, then sure, there are other DACs which have a higher number, doesn't mean they're a better DAC and there are lots of areas where the DAVE is still one of if not the highest performing options on the market, and the subjective feedback on it widely speaks for itself


----------



## flyte3333

Rob Watts said:


> Sure other DACs have managed to get closer to Dave over the last 7 years and some measurements are better (noise for example).



Noted Rob and thanks for the reply

But recent APx555 measurements of Hugo2 and new Mojo2 are also not very state of the art, compared to many DAC-chip based DACs

Designers are implementing the best DAC chips very well these days.

I love my Hugo2 by the way and it is pretty cool that you can achieve very good performance, completely discretely. 

All the Dave owners getting upset should read ASR's Hugo2 conclusion:

_*"As a portable DAC+headphone amplifier, the Hugo 2 has superb performance."

"As a portable product, I can highly recommend the Chord Hugo 2."
*_
The numbers don't lie

The idea that Amir has an agenda makes no sense.


----------



## flyte3333

GoldenOne said:


> Point is, if you're JUST going off SINAD, then sure, there are other DACs which have a higher number, doesn't mean they're a better DAC and there are lots of areas where the DAVE is still one of if not the highest performing options on the market, and the subjective feedback on it widely speaks for itself



Nobody is 'just going off SINAD'. 

There's a whole bunch of measurements done, just like you did.

Which measurements specifically, that you did, have Dave performing highest?

Look at jitter here and look at the price of the DAC (TOSlink and USB same - there is no jitter):

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-do100-review-stereo-dac.34198/



GoldenOne said:


> There are also other areas of performance such as noise shapers which you actually cannot measure at the output of a device because it's impossible to separate analog noise from quantization noise. You have to simulate it mathematically.



If the analogue noise levels are higher than digital noise, it's a bit of a waste of time talking about the digital noise isn't it?

What benefit? 

Analogue output is most important ?


----------



## DJW50

Speaking as someone who doesn't give a hoot about test results I find the onslaught of the this test by ASR spamming Facebook and elsewhere pointless.
At some point I will get hold of a DAVE and try it in my system if it doesn't wow me I'll send it back and get a refund, one point of interest to me is the secondhand value of the DAVE, two on e-bay that I've tracked fetched £6100 and £6700 and they both sold so at that price point people want them there is absolutely no doubt about that fact.
As far as my test goes I have several go-to tracks that I test all my equipment on,  this may be worshiping the Anti-Christ as far as people who are impressed by test graphs go but I'll just repeat it. My band used to play Texas Flood by SRV and I know the bass line very well having played it a 1000 times. My test has always been to see if I can distinguish it being played in E-flat and I can follow the individual notes. So I've got used to the way my Qutest portrays this track in my system and I'll certainly post my experience of the DAVE in my system.


----------



## alxw0w

flyte3333 said:


> If the analogue noise levels are higher than digital noise, it's a bit of a waste of time talking about the digital noise isn't it?


Not so sure about that. Some time ago I posted a video of Martin Mallinson from ESS and he was talking their own research that showed people are sensitive to varying noise and can indeed hear what's hidden in the noise. Here is the video, It's interesting to watch.


----------



## GoldenOne

flyte3333 said:


> Which measurements specifically, that you did, have Dave performing highest?
> 
> Look at jitter here and look at the price of the DAC (TOSlink and USB same - there is no jitter):
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-do100-review-stereo-dac.34198/


That DAC seems to have very low jitter, but still has jitter components visible.
Additionally, one issue with Amir's method for testing jitter is that he uses the audio-precision 'high performance sine analyzer' when doing so.

In my experience, I've found that using this can alter the apparent level of jitter components close to the fundamental and more accurate results are obtained when not using it. So unfortunately his results can't be directly compared to my own.

The high performance sine analyzer is a notch filter intended to eliminate harmonic distortion but it is not ideal or at the least unreliable for evaluating things like jitter.

My test on the DAVE showed nothing above -160dB and at that point it was limited by the analog noise floor. (Though it's also worth noting that directly equating dB levels on a J-test to other distortion tests is not something that should be done. The J-test is a clever way to show a time-domain issue on a frequency-domain plot and is NOT intended to be directly equated to audibility thresholds of other types of distortion).


----------



## flyte3333

GoldenOne said:


> That DAC seems to have very low jitter, but still has jitter components visible.
> Additionally, one issue with Amir's method for testing jitter is that he uses the audio-precision 'high performance sine analyzer' when doing so.


I think he's updated his jitter testing:





Optical (no jitter)


----------



## GoldenOne (Jul 25, 2022)

flyte3333 said:


> If the analogue noise levels are higher than digital noise, it's a bit of a waste of time talking about the digital noise isn't it?
> 
> What benefit?
> 
> Analogue output is most important ?


Because two things are already known:

- Correlated error is in most circumstances more audible/problematic than random error
- You can still hear things below a noise floor.

The room you're in for example might have a noise floor of lets say 60dB, but you can still hear if something very quietly squeaks or makes a sound at 50dB.
In fact we do this all the time in measurements. In the jitter plot for the DAC you linked for example, the noise floor of that DAC is about -122dB, but we can still use lots of FFT gain to see the jitter components below the noise floor at -150dB.




flyte3333 said:


> I think he's updated his jitter testing:
> 
> 
> 
> Optical (no jitter)



He's still using the notch filter. You can see this because of the fact that the noise floor rises around the fundamental tone, whereas in mine it's flat. The main difference seems to be that he's swapped from using a 256k FFT to a 128k FFT.

To be clear: There is no 'standard' here. This is just me and Amir doing things differently. Sometimes tests are just done differently and it's important to know when that happens and what the limitations are to avoid making unfair comparisons.
I'm sure he has a reason for using the HPSA on this test, but I personally have it disabled because it only ever made things more inconsistent in my own testing and wasn't designed for use in this sort of test where the components you're evaluating might be close enough to be affected by the notch


----------



## adrianm

Rob Watts said:


> I can't remember if there ever was a BT function envisioned for Dave as it's a feature I would have strongly reacted against. And I can't remember why an SMA connector was put down on the prototype; but I left the SMA in in case I wanted to add another clock or have a port for testing purposes.  Remember Dave took nearly 3 years to develop with plenty of prototypes on the way. You always add just in case extra functionality, with plenty of redundant bit switches and spare IO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I have to say, I'm incredibly disappointed and do feel duped. I thought we were getting Rob Watts designed metalwork. What about the porthole inspired display? was that all a lie? is it just...round? are the screws just coincidental??? I specifically got it because it was cheaper than a Nautilus or a Royal Oak


----------



## Kentajalli

adrianm said:


> I have to say, I'm incredibly disappointed and do feel duped. I thought we were getting Rob Watts designed metalwork. What about the porthole inspired display? was that all a lie? is it just...round? are the screws just coincidental??? I specifically got it because it was cheaper than a Nautilus or a Royal Oak


Somebody, very eccentric, has designed the _Look _of the Chord products.
You either love them or hate them.
I blocked the glass window on my Hugo2 with a sheet of translucent plastic! didn't like to see inside the circuit board.
Remote and everything still works.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

chesebert said:


> I honestly think Rob is BSing us with his “timing transient” claims. Did he invent this term?



He didn't invent it but he's the only DAC designer to focus on taps and recovering transients the way he does but there's also argument that filters with pre and post ringing don't have correct transients which WTA filter has a lot of. ringing does show up in audio file measurements because not everyone listens to perfectly recorded and mixed, uncompressed high dynamic range music. if its audible though that's still out for debate, some say it contributes to listening fatigue.


----------



## chesebert

Rob Watts said:


> My Dave measurements are -127dB Awt referenced to the 6.75v max output level. That would make it 21 bits.


Your Dave is 21 bits, JA measured one has 20 bits and GS and ASR measured ones have 18bits. Seems like Chord's precision manufacturing SOP may need to be updated to correct for these significant variances in performances


----------



## GoldenOne

chesebert said:


> Your Dave is 21 bits, JA measured one has 20 bits and GS and ASR measured ones have 18bits. Seems like Chord's precision manufacturing SOP may need to be updated to correct for these significant variances in performances


Worth mentioning that RW's figures are A-weighted so they will never be the same as those from myself/Amir etc.


----------



## chesebert

AnalogEuphoria said:


> He didn't invent it but he's the only DAC designer to focus on taps and recovering transients the way he does but there's also argument that filters with pre and post ringing don't have correct transients which WTA filter has a lot of. ringing does show up in audio file measurements because not everyone listens to perfectly recorded and mixed, uncompressed high dynamic range music. if its audible though that's still out for debate, some say it contributes to listening fatigue.


My personal preference is a linear slow rolloff filter (windowed sinc) that does not introduce high frequency aliasing signals in the audible range.


----------



## chesebert (Jul 25, 2022)

GoldenOne said:


> Worth mentioning that RW's figures are A-weighted so they will never be the same as those from myself/Amir etc.


Oh..didn't realize that.. Chord is playing games again, apparently.

All these half truths and manipulation by manufacturer are really grating on my nerves -- and people say I am "negative" about his hobby......


----------



## GoldenOne

chesebert said:


> Oh..didn't realize that.. Chord is playing games again, apparently.


Not really. A lot of manufacturers use A-Weighted specs and there are lots of valid reasons to do so.

I personally don't simply because MOST measurements and specs available are unweighted so I want my testing to be comparable to that but that doesn't mean either way is inherently correct


----------



## chesebert

GoldenOne said:


> Not really. A lot of manufacturers use A-Weighted specs and there are lots of valid reasons to do so.
> 
> I personally don't simply because MOST measurements and specs available are unweighted so I want my testing to be comparable to that but that doesn't mean either way is inherently correct


Yeah, let's cut off treble and bass and just measure the mid-range....it's valid for designing ear muffs for construction workers not measuring the performance of a high priced DAC.


----------



## Arnold Schwartz

I am most disappointed by the poor SINAD of the headphone output at audible levels. I thought Chord’s approach to the headphone output was supposed to be superior as essentially signal coming straight out of the DAC without an amplifier in the path. Why is the headphone out SINAD worse than XLR / RCA output?


----------



## Kentajalli (Jul 25, 2022)

chesebert said:


> Oh..didn't realize that.. Chord is playing games again, apparently.
> 
> All these half truths and manipulation by manufacturer are really grating on my nerves -- and people say I am "negative" about his hobby......


Interpreting raw measurement data is a tough job. One needs scope! (not oscilloscope  🧐)
weighting, correct scaling of graphs etc. provide that scope.
Somebody showed me one of goldenone's graphs for Dave, that was zoomed at just 5 Hz per division at brickwall filter, and was saying t_he filter is no good, it is only -40db at Nyquist! _even though the actual bandwidth of the filter was only 100Hz and at -100dB.


----------



## AndrewOld

chesebert said:


> Seems like Chord's precision manufacturing SOP may need to be updated to correct for these significant variances in performances


The channel imbalance that Amir measured would, if true, also indicate some issues.


----------



## stemiki

Arnold Schwartz said:


> I am most disappointed by the poor SINAD of the headphone output at audible levels. I thought Chord’s approach to the headphone output was supposed to be superior as essentially signal coming straight out of the DAC without an amplifier in the path. Why is the headphone out SINAD worse than XLR / RCA output?


Very strange that the headphone output has these problems they measured. I had a Benchmark HPA4 connected to DAVE's RCA outputs and I preferred the Abyss driven directly from the headphone output. Ditto where she states that she did not fly the DCA Stealth well.
Mysteries of SCIENCE ....


----------



## ZappaMan

What way should dave be configured in conjunction with mscaler ? Hifi mode on?


----------



## adrianm

chesebert said:


> Oh..didn't realize that.. Chord is playing games again, apparently.
> 
> All these half truths and manipulation by manufacturer are really grating on my nerves -- and people say I am "negative" about his hobby......


To be fair, i'm not that into measurements, but i do remember reading this years ago, i think even Amir mentioned it in his written review, with the same comments as you.


----------



## adrianm

stemiki said:


> Very strange that the headphone output has these problems they measured. I had a Benchmark HPA4 connected to DAVE's RCA outputs and I preferred the Abyss driven directly from the headphone output. Ditto where she states that she did not fly the DCA Stealth well.
> Mysteries of SCIENCE ....


That's because the HPA4 is well measuring but terrible sounding. I've auditioned it twice. 


Arnold Schwartz said:


> I am most disappointed by the poor SINAD of the headphone output at audible levels. I thought Chord’s approach to the headphone output was supposed to be superior as essentially signal coming straight out of the DAC without an amplifier in the path. Why is the headphone out SINAD worse than XLR / RCA output?


If i had to guess, i would say the power supply might be holding the headphone amp back. Any improvements to power are certainly easily perceived via headphone out.

  I'm glad someone finally measured it, since it's something almost everyone has heard (didn't forget about you Evan). This myth really needs to stop being perpetuated. It might have been true years ago, but there are now great performing amps that do not color the sound. 
  The Ferrum Oor just walks all over it, without changing the tonality in the slightest (via RCA, I thought it  did so slightly via XLR ). The measurements do nothing but confirm it.  Even with easy to drive Elites. Bigger soundstage, better depth, layering, imaging, dynamics, and even micro-details. So much for the "purity " myth.
    Does this make Dave bad? no, since Dave's headphone out is an afterthought, and the Oor is a 3k amp. Horses for courses.


----------



## griff500

AndrewOld said:


> The channel imbalance that Amir measured would, if true, also indicate some issues.


He seems to get different results from the two channels with alarming frequency. Make of that what you will.


----------



## stemiki

adrianm said:


> That's because the HPA4 is well measuring but terrible sounding. I've auditioned it twice.


HPA4 amplifies without adding or removing anything. It does not equalize the sound. However, it must be taken into account that an external amplifier connected to the RCA or XLR outputs has additional cables and connections in the signal path. As far as I'm concerned, DAVE's headphone output is very, very good.


----------



## Sonic77

Amir says the Topping dac measures better than the Dave dac, but how does it sound compared to the Dave? Has anyone heard both? What are your impressions?
Mr. Watts will need to address these results and verify what Amir said was truthful or not.
Amir says you shouldn't hear a difference with different cables, but I definitely do, so I tend to take what he says with a grain of salt, despite the measurements, I let my ears be the judge.


----------



## adrianm

stemiki said:


> HPA4 amplifies without adding or removing anything. It does not equalize the sound. However, it must be taken into account that an external amplifier connected to the RCA or XLR outputs has additional cables and connections in the signal path. As far as I'm concerned, DAVE's headphone output is very, very good.


 There’s been plenty of testimonials for the contrary. People who could not tell their Rossini apart from their Linn dacs when using both with the HPA4 as a pre.


----------



## Arnold Schwartz

Never heard the Dave but I could easily distinguish the TT2 headphone out as superior to my Auralic amp fed by TT2. Notwithstanding I know I’m not immune to sighted bias. I wish someone would measure the TT2, I would be pretty upset if it measured poorly knowing how well the qutest and Hugo 2 measured and positively reviewed by Amir. These results of Dave from 2 different sources is disconcerting.


----------



## DJW50

griff500 said:


> He seems to get different results from the two channels with alarming frequency. Make of that what you will.


Maybe his gear is screwed and he has been spouting complete bo****ks all this time.


----------



## GoldenOne

DJW50 said:


> Maybe his gear is screwed and he has been spouting complete bo****ks all this time.


I doubt this is the case. My measurements showed the same behaviour in this area


----------



## griff500

Arnold Schwartz said:


> Never heard the Dave but I could easily distinguish the TT2 headphone out as superior to my Auralic amp fed by TT2. Notwithstanding I know I’m not immune to sighted bias. I wish someone would measure the TT2, I would be pretty upset if it measured poorly knowing how well the qutest and Hugo 2 measured and positively reviewed by Amir. These results of Dave from 2 different sources is disconcerting.


If you enjoy it (and it is a very good DAC) then why would certain measurements not being what someone says they should be bother you? Would it suddenly sound worse?

My Dave sounds just as good today as it did before that review and I am just as comfortable with the price as I was before.


----------



## alphaman

Rob Watts said:


> My designs are about making the performance as accurate and transparent as possible to the original performance *as I hear it*. If others do not perceive as I do then so be it, I am not bothered. Thankfully there are very many people who agree with me and are prepared to spend their own money on it - something that I am grateful for, which is why I spend so much time on these threads.
> 
> Another aspect is that often thousands of specific and detailed listening tests are involved, that is simply not possible with a panel.
> 
> And I am not a testee for Chord - I am entirely independent and own all of the IP that goes into my designs.


Mr Watts:
I think I can promote your products better than, forgive my bluntness, you can.
One name: John Atkinson.
He has a well-equipped and STANDARDIZED lab and has listened to / lab-tested  100s of DACs ... with over hundreds of man-hours .... and he had strong praise for Chord ... except for the DAC in the early 2000s that had some peculiar noise measurements. And all these objective/subjective metrics and  opinions have been committed to the web site or the physical Stereophile magazine.


----------



## chesebert

alphaman said:


> Mr Watts:
> I think I can promote your products better than, forgive my bluntness, you can.
> One name: John Atkinson.
> He has a well-equipped and STANDARDIZED lab and has listened to / lab-tested  100s of DACs ... with over hundreds of man-hours .... and he had strong praise for Chord ... except for the DAC in the early 2000s that had some peculiar noise measurements. And all these objective/subjective metrics and  opinions have been committed to the web site or the physical Stereophile magazine.


JA has already tested Dave.


----------



## Somatic

I'm away from Headfi for a while and the bomb has exploded. I still find the Dave + Farad3 to sound great. I can't chase the absolute best anyways. Oh well ...


----------



## Arnold Schwartz

griff500 said:


> If you enjoy it (and it is a very good DAC) then why would certain measurements not being what someone says they should be bother you? Would it suddenly sound worse?
> 
> My Dave sounds just as good today as it did before that review and I am just as comfortable with the price as I was before.


It matters because:

1) We are not immune from bias.
2) The expert engineering (a major input in cost?) should be measurable.
3) The price should be commensurate with the sound quality, service and product finishing.
4) Manufacturers conveniently use measurements to claim superior product performance over competitors but are quick to downplay the importance when it no longer suits them. Did someone once make claims about audible something or other down to -300db?

We should have it all when we buy expensive luxury goods. If you go down to the dragstrip there’s lots of 8 second quarter-mile jalopy’s - they might be fast but don’t compare them to Ferrari. So to me it matters how you get there.


----------



## andrewd01

GoldenOne said:


> My measurements for the DAVE largely align with Amir's. Some small differences but to be expected when testing different units in different places etc etc.
> 
> I don't however agree with his conclusion, for several reasons.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your valuable input to the discussion.

That clipping test is interesting.  Why was this not flagged in your review of the X18?  I saw there was a 1kHz test which did not show the clipping.  Can you please provide more information about the test conditions used to make the clipping test?  Are these conditions typically experienced when listening to music?  It would be interesting to see similar clipping tests on other DACS that rank highly on SINAD tests to confirm the hypothesis that the headroom has been compromised.


----------



## dusty.ro

Arnold Schwartz said:


> It matters because:
> 
> 1) We are not immune from bias.
> 2) The expert engineering (a major input in cost?) should be measurable.
> ...


In regards to 3): if I were to use this logic for other products we woundn't be buying a lot of other stuff. People buy if they find value and that value is subjective. So no, the price doesn't need to reflect sound quality, build quality and so on.


----------



## stemiki

ZappaMan said:


> What way should dave be configured in conjunction with mscaler ? Hifi mode on?


HF Fil Off


----------



## adrianm

stemiki said:


> HPA4 amplifies without adding or removing anything.


That would be 0 feedback,hpa4 is feed forward, so it does add something


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Sonic77 said:


> Amir says the Topping dac measures better than the Dave dac, but how does it sound compared to the Dave? Has anyone heard both? What are your impressions?
> Mr. Watts will need to address these results and verify what Amir said was truthful or not.
> Amir says you shouldn't hear a difference with different cables, but I definitely do, so I tend to take what he says with a grain of salt, despite the measurements, I let my ears be the judge.



You could try an AB test


----------



## chesebert (Jul 25, 2022)

.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Arnold Schwartz said:


> 4) Manufacturers conveniently use measurements to claim superior product performance over competitors but are quick to downplay the importance when it no longer suits them. Did someone once make claims about audible something or other down to -300db?



Im a bit confused on "the noise isn't an issue because its inaudible" and "you can hear it down to -300db"


----------



## adrianm

chesebert said:


> “Feed forward” is likely a marketing term Benchmark is using to confuse people. “0 feedback” is also a marketing term the way they are using it.
> 
> You can’t blame brands for coming up with terms for regular consumers.


The tech is actually licensed from thx. It’s not marketing, it’s widely used:
https://research.iaun.ac.ir/pd/honarvar/pdfs/PaperC_6977.pdf


----------



## Thenewguy007

Rob Watts said:


> *Actually SINAD is worthless as a useful measurement parameter* - at least 0 to 60 does give you one important idea for a car. It's more like measuring the length of a vehicle, as a two seat sports car is much better than a long truck, and then ranking cars solely on their length.
> 
> *The reason why it's useless is that a DAC with a completely fixed noise level of say -100dB (giving SINAD of 100dB) measured in the context of the way it's being used, would give inaudible noise in reality.* If this DAC was perfect in every other regard (no distortion etc) and was compared to a DAC at -120dB noise (giving 120 SINAD), and also perfect in every other regard, the listener would not be able to hear any difference whatsoever. But a DAC that had SINAD of 120 dB but with copious amounts of higher order and anharmonic distortion, noise floor modulation and poor reconstruction filters, would sound terrible by comparison to the lowly 100dB SINAD DAC.




Makes sense, in one their threads they reviewed the Topping LA90 & said it was the best amplifier ever with the highest SINAD, but mentioned that if you try to use any headphones with it, you will hear a lot of noise.


----------



## chesebert

adrianm said:


> The tech is actually licensed from thx. It’s not marketing, it’s widely used:
> https://research.iaun.ac.ir/pd/honarvar/pdfs/PaperC_6977.pdf


I found that paper earlier. Thanks.


----------



## Arnold Schwartz

@AnalogEuphoria see post 17,641 in this thread.


----------



## Kentajalli

GoldenOne said:


> My measurements for the DAVE largely align with Amir's. Some small differences but to be expected when testing different units in different places etc etc.
> 
> I don't however agree with his conclusion, for several reasons.
> 
> ...


I have been headbutting with a member regarding the HF filter on Dave.
Do you have or recall what the slope was?
Chord says a steep filter at 60k, and your graph ends at 50k because the vertical scale is zoomed in.
How sharp was the filter? Thanx


----------



## BassicScience

Sonic77 said:


> Amir says the Topping dac measures better than the Dave dac, *but how does it sound compared to the Dave? Has anyone heard both?* What are your impressions?
> Mr. Watts will need to address these results and verify what Amir said was truthful or not.
> Amir says you shouldn't hear a difference with different cables, but I definitely do, so I tend to take what he says with a grain of salt, despite the measurements, I let my ears be the judge.


The gentleman who sent the DAVE (and M Scaler) to ASR bought one of the Topping DACs, and now says he prefers it in his (2-channel) system to the DAVE. Of course, it's one man's subjective opinion, and without knowing more about his sonic preferences, I don't know how much weight to assign it. I do know he owns and loves a Shangri-la headphone, which means he's not completely deaf.


----------



## GoldenOne (Jul 25, 2022)

Kentajalli said:


> I have been headbutting with a member regarding the HF filter on Dave.
> Do you have or recall what the slope was?
> Chord says a steep filter at 60k, and your graph ends at 50k because the vertical scale is zoomed in.
> How sharp was the filter? Thanx


I didn't do a further zoomed out one unfortunately. Usually the response of a filter is described by the -3dB point so I have that test set to a fairly close zoom to clearly show that, as it'd be harder to see when zoomed further






https://goldensound.audio/2022/03/14/chord-dave-measurements-with-mscaler/


----------



## ra990

BassicScience said:


> The gentleman who sent the DAVE (and M Scaler) to ASR bought one of the Topping DACs, and now claims he prefers it in his (2-channel) system to the DAVE. Of course, it's one man's subjective opinion, and without knowing more about his sonic preferences, I don't know how much weight to assign it. I do know he owns and loves a Shangri-la headphone, which means he's not completely deaf.


I think if a lot of us honestly did some blind testing, we'd be shocked at the results. The other night, I was enjoying my setup and listening to music upsampled via HQPlayer. For hours, I sat there enjoying, fascinated that I was hearing details I've missed before. I was a believer in HQPlayer! Until I went to stop the music and saw that it was never engaged at all and I was simply listening out of the TT2 direct over toslink. Ooops yea, really woke me up to how much we make up in our head when we expect to hear something vs not knowing what to expect.


----------



## Kentajalli (Jul 25, 2022)

GoldenOne said:


> I didn't do a further zoomed out one unfortunately. Usually the response of a filter is described by the -3dB point so I have that test set to a fairly close zoom to clearly show that, as it'd be harder to see when zoomed further
> 
> 
> 
> https://goldensound.audio/2022/03/14/chord-dave-measurements-with-mscaler/


I have seen that, but was it a _smooth _filter of 3db/octave ? Say the brickwall filter is not a smooth one.
Because _That _is not a _Sharp filter _as Chord claims, or as you mentioned on the review.
Say -6dB at 60K is not going to be very effective at removing noise (as Chord claims on the manual).
Thanx for replying.


----------



## BassicScience

ra990 said:


> I think if a lot of us honestly did some blind testing, we'd be shocked at the results. The other night, I was enjoying my setup and listening to music upsampled via HQPlayer. For hours, I sat there enjoying, fascinated that I was hearing details I've missed before. I was a believer in HQPlayer! Until I went to stop the music and saw that it was never engaged at all and I was simply listening out of the TT2 direct over toslink. Ooops yea, really woke me up to how much we make up in our head when we expect to hear something vs not knowing what to expect.


Yep, had the same exact experience with expensive interconnects about twenty years ago. I had an SACD player with two sets of RCA outputs, so I could A/B them vs. some cheaper interconnects I'd been using for awhile (don't remember either brand at this point) by simply remotely switching inputs on my ARC Reference 1 preamp. I was completely convinced that the system sounded WAY better with the expensive interconnects. One day, I was doing the comparison and having the usual subjective preference, but then discovered that I'd mixed up which interconnect was on which preamp input. Needless to say, it was a moment of great self-enlightenment. We truly don't understand or appreciate how much processing goes on between our eardrums and what we _think _we're hearing, and how unreliable it can be. That's (one reason) why *I* use measurements as a sanity check. Everyone's mileage may vary, of course...


----------



## ra990 (Jul 25, 2022)

BassicScience said:


> Needless to say, it was a moment of great self-enlightenment. We truly don't understand or appreciate how much processing goes on between our eardrums and what we _think _we're hearing, and how unreliable it can be.


One thing that is very evident; there's a lot of ego tied to this hobby for some. I don't expect many to challenge themselves and do proper blind testing for the fear that they may discover they've been wrong all along. That would shatter how amazing they think their own hearing ability is. What I described and what you're describing, these stories are frequent occurrences that continue to remind me to keep an open mind and not become dogmatic about what I think I hear.


----------



## Vindication (Jul 25, 2022)

Had a feeling this thread would have some action on it today.


----------



## chesebert (Jul 25, 2022)

BassicScience said:


> Yep, had the same exact experience with expensive interconnects about twenty years ago. I had an SACD player with two sets of RCA outputs, so I could A/B them vs. some cheaper interconnects I'd been using for awhile (don't remember either brand at this point) by simply remotely switching inputs on my ARC Reference 1 preamp. I was completely convinced that the system sounded WAY better with the expensive interconnects. One day, I was doing the comparison and having the usual subjective preference, but then discovered that I'd mixed up which interconnect was on which preamp input. Needless to say, it was a moment of great self-enlightenment. We truly don't understand or appreciate how much processing goes on between our eardrums and what we _think _we're hearing, and how unreliable it can be. That's (one reason) why *I* use measurements as a sanity check. Everyone's mileage may vary, of course...


We all had similar moments. For me, excellent bench performance is merely a first step - it represents quality engineering, manufacturing and quality control. Assuming the gear has excellent performance, then there is the listening test to determine if the sound reproduction fits your tastes and preferences. This eliminates 90% (I made this number up obviously) of the high-end imposters (both gear and reviewers) on the market.


----------



## SteveHulk

The percentage of reasonably sane posts seems to be going up as the number of guests falls... 😁


----------



## SteveHulk

... and we are closing in on 22k posts in this thread.

Not bad for a seven year old device that was supposedly a pile of 💩e from day one. 🤣


----------



## ZappaMan

I liked the bit where he says he couldn’t recommend it at any price. 
But maybe as their spiritual leader takes ever more extreme positions, then maybe some of his audience will see it for what it appears to be.


----------



## jlbrach

Ciggavelli said:


> I’m definitely prioritizing going to a Can Jam in the future. It’d be a fun trip.   That said the likelihood of them pairing the dac I’m interested in with my amp(s), cables, conditioner, streamer and headphones is very unlikely. I need to move to a new city in a new state, where I can get in home demos. I envy those in UK who can return anything within a timespan and get their full money back.


canjam is tons of fun I have been to the ones in NYC numerous times...good fun but a lousy place to listen to components...


----------



## chesebert

Looks like Amir runs a retail AV shop in WA that sells AV electronics and does custom installations - good god everyone in this hifi business has an agenda and is trying to make a buck off of you. 

Seriously, “don’t trust and verify” should be plastered in all the forums.


----------



## chesebert

jlbrach said:


> canjam is tons of fun I have been to the ones in NYC numerous times...good fun but a lousy place to listen to components...


Should have gone to the one in Chicago - I was able to spend solid 30-45min with each gear (I ran out of time eventually).


----------



## Hooster

Triode User said:


> That Dave is a used item sent in by an ASR forum member. Who knows whether it has been abused but it should be returned to Chord under warranty for repair and then retested.
> 
> Regarding your mention of the TT2 and its possible SINAD this is completely in the 'so what' category because the Dave sounds considerably better than the TT2. We don't need measurements to know that, just a pair of ears.
> 
> (by the way I am just part way through a podcast on the subject of the usefulness of measurements from about 2 weeks ago by Darko with GS as a guest and amongst other things the clear conclusion is that SINAD is no better method of ranking a DAC than it is to try to rank cars by stating their engine horse power)



I am a petrol head and engine horse power means a lot to me. In terms of audio equipment the ratio of signal to the sum of noise and distortion is meaningful, to say the least.


----------



## jlbrach

it seems the entire chord dave thread has been hijacked by these creepy ASR people...please go back to your site where you can bash and mock and try to destroy basically all high end audio products..personally I dont know why these people bother with anything other than a topping amp and a budget DAC and call it a day..why the need to try to tear down products which seems to be all that occurs on the ASR site ...


----------



## Ciggavelli

jlbrach said:


> it seems the entire chord dave thread has been hijacked by these creepy ASR people...please go back to your site where you can bash and mock and try to destroy basically all high end audio products..personally I dont know why these people bother with anything other than a topping amp and a budget DAC and call it a day..why the need to try to tear down products which seems to be all that occurs on the ASR site ...


I tend to agree, but ASR did give a positive review for the Mola Mola Tambaqui, which is priced around the same as a DAVE.  

Personally, I'm not sure the ASR measurements are actually measuring the right construct (meaning the sound I actually hear), so I don't put much weight in them.


----------



## Kentajalli (Jul 25, 2022)

chesebert said:


> Looks like Amir runs a retail AV shop in WA that sells AV electronics and does custom installations - good god everyone in this hifi business has an agenda and is trying to make a buck off of you.
> 
> Seriously, “don’t trust and verify” should be plastered in all the forums.


He only sells his own brand, as far as I am aware, but he buys in components and bits and bats. he is not a reseller as such.
He always has declared that and never reviews his own stuff.
Recently he reviewed an equalizer, and in the first few lines, he declared that he buys from that company for clarity.
He may have an agenda, but it is not that!
He does not get on with Rob Watts, and so far Rob has snubbed him (I must say rightfully).
It seems he is bothered by that.
But he is honest!


----------



## paulrbarnard

griff500 said:


> If you enjoy it (and it is a very good DAC) then why would certain measurements not being what someone says they should be bother you? Would it suddenly sound worse?
> 
> My Dave sounds just as good today as it did before that review and I am just as comfortable with the price as I was before.


Actually mine sounded better today…

My wife was out so I turned the volume up 😜


----------



## Kentajalli

jlbrach said:


> it seems the entire chord dave thread has been hijacked by these creepy ASR people...please go back to your site where you can bash and mock and try to destroy basically all high end audio products..personally I dont know why these people bother with anything other than a topping amp and a budget DAC and call it a day..why the need to try to tear down products which seems to be all that occurs on the ASR site ...


Can non-members leave posts here?
If they are members, then they have every right.
As some of us (Me!) do the same on both sites.


----------



## chesebert

Kentajalli said:


> He only sells his own brand, as far as I am aware, but he buys in components and bits and bats. he is not a reseller as such.
> He always has declared that and never reviews his own stuff.
> Recently he reviewed an equalizer, and in the first few lines, he declared that he buys from that company for clarity.
> He may have an agenda, but it is not that!
> ...


Someone in WA should pay his store a visit


----------



## protoss

jlbrach said:


> please go back to your site


This makes no sense at all. About 75% or more of ASR people are Head-fiers. They have more understanding of science and logic than people in summit fi 😆

Here's a perfect example:

"Do cables make a difference?"

Once you say yes. You belong in headfi and especially in summit-fi, it's simple as that.


----------



## chesebert

protoss said:


> This makes no sense at all. About 75% or more of ASR people are Head-fiers. They have more understanding of science and logic than people in summit fi 😆
> 
> Here's a perfect example:
> 
> ...


I can hear difference in cables - I guess that makes me a headfi slave.


----------



## chesebert

Triode User said:


> That Dave is a used item sent in by an ASR forum member. Who knows whether it has been abused but it should be returned to Chord under warranty for repair and then retested.
> 
> Regarding your mention of the TT2 and its possible SINAD this is completely in the 'so what' category because the Dave sounds considerably better than the TT2. We don't need measurements to know that, just a pair of ears.
> 
> (by the way I am just part way through a podcast on the subject of the usefulness of measurements from about 2 weeks ago by Darko with GS as a guest and amongst other things the clear conclusion is that SINAD is no better method of ranking a DAC than it is to try to rank cars by stating their engine horse power)


I agree once you are able to resolve 17-18 bits more is kind of meaningless from a pure audio perspective. But bad SINAD could mean design, manufacturing or quality control issues that may affect product as a whole.


----------



## Kentajalli

chesebert said:


> I can hear difference in cables - I guess that makes me a headfi slave.


 I can do too, in special circumstances! Though my education can not explain it (Yet).
This is a problem with blind objectivity (or subjectivity). You develop pre-conceptions in black and white.
It polarizes you.


----------



## chesebert (Jul 25, 2022)

Kentajalli said:


> I can do too, in special circumstances! Though my education can not explain it (Yet).
> This is a problem with blind objectivity (or subjectivity). You develop pre-conceptions in black and white.
> It polarizes you.


I am too objective for here and too subjective for ASR and sound science. I think that friendly place offers a good balance but they are not very social and demand “high quality” posting, which I don’t care for. And I hate being marketed to, sold to and influenced by. Sad state of affairs really.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

BassicScience said:


> Yep, had the same exact experience with expensive interconnects about twenty years ago. I had an SACD player with two sets of RCA outputs, so I could A/B them vs. some cheaper interconnects I'd been using for awhile (don't remember either brand at this point) by simply remotely switching inputs on my ARC Reference 1 preamp. I was completely convinced that the system sounded WAY better with the expensive interconnects. One day, I was doing the comparison and having the usual subjective preference, but then discovered that I'd mixed up which interconnect was on which preamp input. Needless to say, it was a moment of great self-enlightenment. We truly don't understand or appreciate how much processing goes on between our eardrums and what we _think _we're hearing, and how unreliable it can be. That's (one reason) why *I* use measurements as a sanity check. Everyone's mileage may vary, of course...




I had the opposite scenario, I love the Eagles Hotel California on DSD, the other day I swear I was listening to the album on DSD, but it sounded edgy and weird so I went to check, I thought my speakers had gone bad, I was listening to the CD version while thinking I was listening to my DSD.


----------



## Kentajalli

chesebert said:


> I am too objective for here and too subjective for ASR and sound science. I think that friendly place offers a good balance but they are not very social and demand “high quality” posting, which I don’t care for. And I hate being marketed to, sold to and influenced by. Sad state of affairs really.


Who demands high quality postings?


----------



## chesebert

Kentajalli said:


> Who demands high quality postings?


A certain friendly place run by you know who.


----------



## Kentajalli

chesebert said:


> A certain friendly place run by you know who.


ASR?
spell it out - you won't get arrested.


----------



## chesebert

Kentajalli said:


> ASR?
> spell it out - you won't get arrested.


He who must not be name here....


----------



## protoss

chesebert said:


> sound science



It's funny that people are angry at ASR for their logic and science but here on headfi we have a thread that people barely visit and are afraid of.

I know almost a fact people are scared of that one monster over there 😀 😆 

@bigshot


----------



## Kentajalli

chesebert said:


> He who must not be name here....


Voldemort! ?
Amir?
I am gonna assume you mean ASR.
ASR is full of trolls, well respected trolls, with high-like scores!
At the drop of a hat, they get personal and attack you personally, accusing you of all sorts.
A few minutes ago, I was called _A shill for Chord _! Who does their bidding for free.
Why? Because the guy is a troll, and I ignored him.
High quality posts my ASR!


----------



## Kentajalli

protoss said:


> It's funny that people are angry at ASR for their logic and science but here on headfi we have a thread that people barely visit and are afraid of.
> 
> I know almost a fact people are scared of that one monster over there 😀 😆
> 
> @bigshot


At least Head-fi _does _have a sound science, that's democracy for you.
On ASR, any hint of subjectivity equals leprosy! 
They get their crosses out, splashing you with holy water!


----------



## chesebert

Kentajalli said:


> Voldemort! ?
> Amir?
> I am gonna assume you mean ASR.
> ASR is full of trolls, well respected trolls, with high-like scores!
> ...


a friendly place whose proprietor must not be named here


----------



## Kentajalli

chesebert said:


> a friendly place whose proprietor must not be named here


Good night, if not Amir or ASR, I have no clue.


----------



## chesebert

Kentajalli said:


> At least Head-fi _does _have a sound science, that's democracy for you.
> On ASR, any hint of subjectivity equals leprosy!
> They get their crosses out, splashing you with holy water!


Sound science is the loony bin of HF - I like to send people there when they start talking ABX


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Don't question the "measurements" over there, you then get banned for "trolling" behavior.  It's funny.  Seems Good Ol' Amir is not happy Chord has completely ignored him, who in their right state of mind thinks 1khz SINAD is a way to rank DACs 😂.  I am all for measurements, but not to the point we don't listen, I know a nut that has been reaching out to me trying to make me feel bad that I love the DAVE, I have been laughing all day.   Makes my day, hilarious.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Ciggavelli said:


> I tend to agree, but ASR did give a positive review for the Mola Mola Tambaqui, which is priced around the same as a DAVE.
> 
> Personally, I'm not sure the ASR measurements are actually measuring the right construct (meaning the sound I actually hear), so I don't put much weight in them.



Im sure the Audioprecision machine is far more sensitive than our hearing. What else could it not be picking up?


----------



## GuiltyRocker

AnalogEuphoria said:


> Im sure the Audioprecision machine is far more sensitive than our hearing. What else could it not be picking up?



Where are the impulse response tests?  The transients tests?  Where are the interpolation filter tests?  The noise shaper tests?  The noise floor modulation tests?  He tests what he wants, especially when it's convenient.  😆


----------



## GuiltyRocker

chesebert said:


> Sound science is the loony bin of HF - I like to send people there when they start talking ABX


Hahahahhahahahahahhaahhhahahahahahahhhahahahhahahaha


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

GuiltyRocker said:


> Where are the impulse response tests?  The transients tests?  Where are the interpolation filter tests?  The noise shaper tests?  The noise floor modulation tests?  He tests what he wants, especially when it's convenient.  😆



I don't mean his tests specifically I mean is there something we hear that the AP can't measure?


----------



## Ciggavelli

AnalogEuphoria said:


> Im sure the Audioprecision machine is far more sensitive than our hearing. What else could it not be picking up?


Soundstage, texture, imaging, separation, etc.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

AnalogEuphoria said:


> I don't mean his tests specifically I mean is there something we hear that the AP can't measure?



Absolutely, has to be, my guess is there are tests we haven't even created yet.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Ciggavelli said:


> Soundstage, texture, imaging, separation, etc.



I was thinking more noise and distortion type of tests


----------



## Ciggavelli

AnalogEuphoria said:


> I was thinking more noise and distortion type of tests


That’s kinda what I mean by the tests not being valid representations of what I listen for. Those unmeasurable things are of great interest to me, as I’m a visual listener. I also like distortion at times (like with tubes or bass)


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Out of interest I wonder why chord does not publish Robs AP measurements on their website, Schiit for example has a full test report under the specifications for the product.


----------



## BassicScience

GuiltyRocker said:


> Where are the impulse response tests?  The transients tests?  Where are the interpolation filter tests?  The noise shaper tests?  The noise floor modulation tests?  He tests what he wants, especially when it's convenient.  😆


The DAVE recognizes an impulse input and "mutes" the output in response. Apparently Chord feels that the impulse response is IP, although it was suggested that there are alternate ways of teasing it out. Noise floor modulation tests were run for the ASR review, and were rather disappointing considering it's supposedly a calling card of this DAC.


----------



## Impossible

You can defiantly take what Amir is saying as gospel because he is talking about the factual test results.


----------



## Icenine2

Jeez. I walk away for a few days and…WE’RE UNDER ATTACK!!!!!


----------



## Currawong

The lie here is not the test results. The lie is their relevance. It'd be much like running a car on a dyno, taking a picture of the output, and ranking cars based on that alone. 

Take Schiit, for example. The best measuring of their DACs is their, very audibly, least resolving one.  The whole measurement game is a set-up.


----------



## Icenine2

Even if I hadn't auditioned Chord's DAVE, I would have been impressed by this DAC. Its measured performance is beyond reproach.—*John Atkinson*


----------



## flyte3333 (Jul 26, 2022)

GoldenOne said:


> The room you're in for example might have a noise floor of lets say 60dB, but you can still hear if something very quietly squeaks or makes a sound at 50dB.



If 'noise floor' of a room is 60dB , say due to AC unit noise in the range of 30-300Hz - why would this mask some other noise at 50dB say at 3kHz ?

And that example is acoustic noise anyway.

This is different to digital noise (which is not acoustic noise) below analogue electronics noise?


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 26, 2022)

GoldenOne said:


> I didn't do a further zoomed out one unfortunately. Usually the response of a filter is described by the -3dB point so I have that test set to a fairly close zoom to clearly show that, as it'd be harder to see when zoomed further
> 
> 
> 
> https://goldensound.audio/2022/03/14/chord-dave-measurements-with-mscaler/


Hm it actually starts at 5k.. thats in the audible fq range.  No wonder i can hear it . Also with HMS..

Hm but then again.. this filter is applied in the digital domain i assume..


----------



## Currawong

Reactcore said:


> Hm it actually starts at 5k.. thats in the audible fq range.  No wonder i can hear it . Also with HMS..
> 
> Hm but then again.. this filter is applied in the digital domain i assume..


I don't think it is possible to make out 0.2 dB or so of attenuation at 10 khz, and very possibly doesn't even attenuate even half a dB at the (likely) limit of our hearing. However, I sometimes notice a subtle difference with high-res music.  The high frequencies removed, which are most often ADC noise anyway (above 50 kHz and can be relatively high) must be interfering subtly somewhere that causes an audible result if we're hearing what we're hearing.


----------



## The Jester

With current state of the art analysers we’re already beyond the threshold of hearing at the Magical SINAD of 100-110 db for sound quality with “standard” measurements, so any differences people hear are placebo or perception bias, something that can’t be measured to wave away any who claim to hear variations, trouble is we listen to music, a complex collection of various sounds from different sources that can interact or harmonise with others, this complex mix is transferred to an electrical signal via microphone, fine tuned “By Ear” in a studio and then stored either on tape or sent to an ADC for digital storage, then replayed out through a DAC, then amplified to a transducer to convert the electrical signal back to that complex collection of sounds that we hear, there are always going to be losses in any of the conversion stages, but I seriously doubt that a SINAD difference of 100 to 110 in the DAC is going to be one of them, so why doesn’t a live, unamplified guitar, piano or sax sound exactly the same as the recorded version ?, sure there is perception involved, that’s how we hear and identify discrete and complex sounds, but if we’ve never heard those unamplified instruments live how can we know what they sound like, what about some some research and efforts into what we’re not measuring that is missing rather that the constant agonising over measured differences that are already beyond audibility ?
Laughter and derision when someone like Rob mentions -300db as if something could be heard at that level instead of reading that the -300db is the accuracy of the relative level of audible signals.


----------



## griff500 (Jul 26, 2022)

It's funny how engineering excellence seems to be equated to 'good enough as you're not going to hear any benefit from anything more than that' by some. Striving for more should be a good thing, much like a car being over-engineered. Certain semi-automatic gearboxes perform objectively worse than others yet add something raw and welcome to the driving experience. Some will prefer the modern seamless experience while others appreciate something more visceral. The majority either have no interest in cars beyond something to get somewhere as cheaply as possible or exercise inverted snobbery against cars they will never be able to afford. I think there's a fair amount of this on a certain objectivist website.

Dave fell into the 'excellent' part of the scale on ASR, which is impressive for a DAC that's 7 years old, but that scale is simply SINAD and I'm sure there's more to how a DAC sounds than that. There's no point in saying that I've clearly heard the differences between DACs, however, as everyone who hears such differences is, apparently, wrong. When the Dave was released it must have been so very far ahead of anything else. I still have no desire to 'upgrade' - it's still a fabulous bit of kit.

Apparently the Mola Mola is recommended and value for money isn't something for him to base his conclusion on, yet it is for the Dave and it was for the Vega G2, which was not recommend but performed very well, has a streamer built in with an excellent app and is a product that I thought sounded great when I had one for a few weeks on loan. Interestingly, the Vega G1 measured 'worse' than the G2 yet was recommend (it's cheaper). If you're going to be 'scientific' then at least be consistent.


----------



## pichler

SteveHulk said:


> A mains filter might have only a marginal effect as these are passive devices. You probably need a mains regenerator. This takes the mains, in crude terms in effect basically using it to power a high-quality oscillator which is effectively used as the input of a power amplifier. Your kit is then fed mains voltage and frequency from that amplifier.
> 
> The mains itself in general has three major defects: high frequency random noise picked up from external sources, distortion in what is supposed to be a sinusoidal waveform, and drifting frequency.
> 
> ...


Hello and thank you for your replies, much appreciated.
I think the proof I can do without big economic damage is to buy the inverter (TS-400-212B - MeanWell 400W Inverter - In 12V Out 220 VAC) 215 euros....
I already have a 12V 95AH lead battery that I use to power the Mscaler and the network modem. If, as I believe, the benefits are significant, I can think of investing in 12V batteries like you did. If I understand correctly you use an inverter for the Dave and one for the amp ...... I guess it is better to power the Dave alone, the two Etudes with another inverter.
Probably so the absorption is minimal if I want to remove the fan of the inverters.


----------



## AxelCloris

As a reminder our guidelines require that all posts in a thread remain on-topic, which in this thread is the Chord DAVE. Those who would like to discuss other topics such as other websites are welcome to start a thread in the Members' Lounge forum as that is off-topic here. Personal commentary of others is never allowed on Head-Fi. Let's please keep the topic of discussion focused on the DAVE and our personal first-hand experiences with it as part of our systems. Thanks everyone.

If anyone has any questions, please feel free to PM me. Now let's bring the conversation back to the DAVE. Thanks all.


----------



## SteveHulk

pichler said:


> Hello and thank you for your replies, much appreciated.
> I think the proof I can do without big economic damage is to buy the inverter (TS-400-212B - MeanWell 400W Inverter - In 12V Out 220 VAC) 215 euros....
> I already have a 12V 95AH lead battery that I use to power the Mscaler and the network modem. If, as I believe, the benefits are significant, I can think of investing in 12V batteries like you did. If I understand correctly you use an inverter for the Dave and one for the amp ...... I guess it is better to power the Dave alone, the two Etudes with another inverter.
> Probably so the absorption is minimal if I want to remove the fan of the inverters.


The amp I have is quite power-hungry at 180W as the valve heaters have to run. That's why I have it on a separate higher power inverter. All the low-wattage digital items run on the other inverter.

If you are spooked by the idea that the m scaler might somehow transmit noise to the DAVE via a shared power supply then you can eliminate this worry by having the two on separate batteries and inverters.

I think the 400W inverter is a good choice for you. Removing the fan is a good idea as well



pichler said:


> Hello and thank you for your replies, much appreciated.
> I think the proof I can do without big economic damage is to buy the inverter (TS-400-212B - MeanWell 400W Inverter - In 12V Out 220 VAC) 215 euros....
> I already have a 12V 95AH lead battery that I use to power the Mscaler and the network modem. If, as I believe, the benefits are significant, I can think of investing in 12V batteries like you did. If I understand correctly you use an inverter for the Dave and one for the amp ...... I guess it is better to power the Dave alone, the two Etudes with another inverter.
> Probably so the absorption is minimal if I want to remove the fan of the inverters.


The other detail, before you order the inverter, is to make sure the output socket on it is of the type appropriate to where you live.

Using adapters is not really a good idea.


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 26, 2022)

pichler said:


> I already have a 12V 95AH lead battery that I use to power the Mscaler and the network modem.


I recommend not to share one battery by HMS and modem.. as ground noise from the router can enter HMS via the shared dc wire..

Better use separate batteries


----------



## SteveHulk (Jul 26, 2022)

One thing I did notice yesterday about changes in the DAVE since I installed the Farad3 power supplies...

When I'm watching movies on my pc I use the headphone output on the DAVE rather than firing up the valves on my headphone amp. Probably the world's most expensive pc sound card 😀

Although it is just an impression and not a properly-organised AB comparison, I did gain the impression that the sound of of the headphone socket was more vigorous than with the stock smps.

At the time, I was in movie-watching mode and not in audiophile mode. I was not looking for any audio effects but there it was. 

There was a thunderstorm in the movie and there was a pretty decent one in my room too.

There was that kind of thunder going on that starts with a high-pitched racketing sound which then descends in frequency to a deep rumble. Also with such thunder in real life you have a sense of the sound starting at a high altitude and descending in altitude as the thunder roll progresses.

I was getting all that in the headphones and I wasn't really aware of that ever happening before the Farad3.


----------



## adrianm

SteveHulk said:


> One thing I did notice yesterday about changes in the DAVE since I installed the Farad3 power supplies...
> 
> When I'm watching movies on my pc I use the headphone output on the DAVE rather than firing up the valves on my headphone amp. Probably the world's most expensive pc sound card 😀
> 
> ...


Random impressions like this feed the Evans  at least try the same tracks, mentioned what headphone was used, etc.


----------



## SteveHulk

adrianm said:


> Random impressions like this feed the Evans  at least try the same tracks, mentioned what headphone was used, etc.


I can't do an AB since that would involve dismantling the DAVE again. The movie was one I had watched before with the same audio setup except for the Farad3. 

The headphones are detailed in my signature, as are the rest of my systems.

As I was careful to say, it was just an impression. However it has extra value because I was totally not looking for any audio effect or differences as I was just watching movies.


----------



## alphaman

I don’t think Majidmehr really cares about DAC prices. The DAVE is in the same $$ league as the Mola Mola, which tested the way Amir likes 😉
He is absolutely committed to the scientific method and DESERVES worship of the pantheon.


----------



## Somatic

SteveHulk said:


> I can't do an AB since that would involve dismantling the DAVE again. The movie was one I had watched before with the same audio setup except for the Farad3.
> 
> The headphones are detailed in my signature, as are the rest of my systems.
> 
> As I was careful to say, it was just an impression. However it has extra value because I was totally not looking for any audio effect or differences as I was just watching movies.


I agree. I’m using the headphone out of the Dave. Susvara sounded like crap off solo Dave. Shrilly, thin sound.  With Dave + Farad3 it sounds great. I’m sure I can get better performance with an amp which I will slowly aquire.


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jul 26, 2022)

Somatic said:


> I agree. I’m using the headphone out of the Dave. Susvara sounded like crap off solo Dave. Shrilly, thin sound.  With Dave + Farad3 it sounds great. I’m sure I can get better performance with an amp which I will slowly aquire.


Same thing happened when I added my Sean Jacobs PSU. I’ve come to believe it’s related to increased power reserve. On a stock Dave, there is just not enough reserve power for a TC or Susvara type pair of headphones. I mean, it drives them loud enough, but the bass is lacking. Add in an lps with plenty of reserve power and the bass comes through. It really transforms the Dave headphone output. I still prefer my wa33, but lps DAVE is much better than stock Dave.


----------



## Somatic

Ciggavelli said:


> Same thing happened when I added my Sean Jacobs PSU. I’ve come to believe it’s related to increased power reserve. On a stock Dave, there is just not enough reserve power for a TC or Susvara type pair of headphones. I mean, it drives them loud enough, but the bass is lacking. Add in an lps with plenty of reserve power and the bass comes through. It really transforms the Dave headphone output. I still prefer my wa33, but lps DAVE is much better than stock Dave.


How much better you think the wa33 made the Susvara sound vs modded LPS Dave? Incremental upgrade or a big delta? Thanks


----------



## Ciggavelli (Jul 26, 2022)

Somatic said:


> How much better you think the wa33 made the Susvara sound vs modded LPS Dave? Incremental upgrade or a big delta? Thanks


I had the standard wa33 before my current elite edition with JPS wiring. The standard wa33 is maybe more incremental, while the wa33 elite JPS is a bigger jump. The Susvaras have scaled better than any of my other headphones.  The sound good out of a wa33 standard, but definitely better out of a wa33 elite JPS


----------



## 801evan

With MQA on my setup, things go deeper and blacker. No compromise on Stealth and Susvara. No external needed, stock smps intact. 💪💪


----------



## jlbrach

Ciggavelli said:


> Same thing happened when I added my Sean Jacobs PSU. I’ve come to believe it’s related to increased power reserve. On a stock Dave, there is just not enough reserve power for a TC or Susvara type pair of headphones. I mean, it drives them loud enough, but the bass is lacking. Add in an lps with plenty of reserve power and the bass comes through. It really transforms the Dave headphone output. I still prefer my wa33, but lps DAVE is much better than stock Dave.


interestingly adding the powerman to the formula s had a similar result even though the power in terms of watts doesnt change but the ability to drive inefficient HP's improved


----------



## Somatic

jlbrach said:


> interestingly adding the powerman to the formula s had a similar result even though the power in terms of watts doesnt change but the ability to drive inefficient HP's improved


Wonder what the exact Electrical Engineering perspective is on this …


----------



## 801evan

Yep. No need for more power quantity, just better power quality which I've been saying.


----------



## Sampajanna

“A half-truth is a despot... such as has never been in the world before. A despot that has its priests and its slaves, a despot to whom all do homage with love and superstition hitherto inconceivable, before which science itself trembles and cringes in a shameful way.” 
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Discussing ASR


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> Wonder what the exact Electrical Engineering perspective is on this …



I posted this previously... It might help you. 



SteveHulk said:


> When the going gets tough, the first actual "pull" in a device is from the dc power rails within the device.
> 
> The device's psu sits between these rails and the mains.
> 
> ...


----------



## Triode User

SteveHulk said:


> I posted this previously... It might help you.



And I recollect it prompted this response from RW. 😜



Rob Watts said:


> Your explanation is just plain wrong. Do you think I do not know what I am doing?


----------



## SteveHulk

Triode User said:


> And I recollect it prompted this response from RW. 😜


As I replied to him at the time, I am describing the behaviour of ideal power supplies in general.

I have no idea why he said what he did. Describing an ideal power supply as a constant voltage current source is indisputably correct.

This is the starting point for any thinking about why the replacement of the DAVE stock smps with power supplies that are closer to ideal has the effects on sound quality from the headphone output which have been observed. This effect can be purely in the analogue domain as we are looking at the DAVE headphone amp here. All amplifier manufacturers know this, which is why all good power amps have such freaking massive power supplies. 

As far as DAVE digital circuitry is concerned, stability of the voltages on the power rails will also be crucial.

I know this from extensive experience of overclocking cpus in the various PCs that I have built.

Overclocking a cpu generally involves overvolting it. This is to compensate for the fact that the voltage from the cpu voltage regulator modules (VRM) will sag when the cpu gets loaded and then overshoot when the loading comes off. The better and seriously more expensive motherboards had superior VRMs - closer to the ideal psu described above - so they were easier to overclock.

It was a ticklish business setting these voltages so that they were high enough to sustain the overclock but not so high that that voltage overshoot would crash the pc when the loading came off the cpu.

I reiterate: holding its output voltage absolutely steady irrespective of the current that the load device is drawing is the defining characteristic of a good power supply.


----------



## MvRBE10

SteveHulk said:


> As I replied to him at the time, I am describing the behaviour of ideal power supplies in general.
> 
> I have no idea why he said what he did. Describing an ideal power supply as a constant voltage current source is indisputably correct.
> 
> ...


After a long journey of learning and observing i also see different approuches on improving sound on eg. Dac’s, one side i see the kind of old school lps’s that are very well build with top of the bill materials that improve sound quality compared to original. And the approuch of modern rf and hf filtering and other innovations in lps’s seeking for neutral sound with a balance of maintaining the musicality of a rig.  And ofcourse all kinds of designs in between. Its up to the listener and owners what they preffer as with everything in audio. 

There is i think an absolute wrong and right but that only applies at a certain rig or setup. Everything in between is up to each his own ears and synergy of the setup. Love this hobby!


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

I post very infrequently these days (though I still keep up to date and appreciate the contributions). Anyway, I like to contribute when I come across something that surprises me and I gage to be worth sharing.

My source component is the Innuos Statement, which feeds the M Scaler and ultimately the Dave. I recently upgraded the source to Statement 'Next Gen' status. And clearly it is quite a noticeable SQ upgrade. (This can be verified on YouTube btw.) When I sent my Stement back to Portugal I was using an SR 'Orange' fuse and when it arrived back at my house with the upgrade complete it had a stock fuse installed. The reason being, they had blown my SR Orange fuse. . So I put 230 hours on it with the stock fuse in situ and there was clearly an upgrade in SQ, despite this retrograde step with the fuse. Now here's the thing: I then installed an SR 'PURPLE' fuse and Jesus Christ!! The jump in SQ was bigger than the albeit significant Next-Gen upgrade from Innuos. Just about everything I value in good hifi changed for the better and not by a small margin either.

I guess the lesson learned here for me was that whilst £190 for single fuse is a crazy price to pay for a fuse, when I put it up against a £3,900 upgrade of the component this particular fuse can hold its own in the level of improvement it can bring. I have used SR Blue and SR Orange but the SR Purple jumps higher by a large margin. Against stock fuses it is like going from a beat box to a hifi system. The bass has clarity and weight, the imaging and sound-stage becomes an entity of its own. The layering, dynamics, musicality etc .........and this is in a system that I have spent more than £100,000 on. Go figure. Fuses are the biggest bottleneck in every Hifi system regardless of components and power products imo.

Thanks for listening


----------



## griff500 (Jul 27, 2022)

An interesting response from Hans to a question on his channel:

"It is ignorant to publish frequency domain measurements made from a DAC that has extremely high resolution in the time domain. If you do that, you completely missed developments made in digital audio over the last 10 years."

Does that seem a reasonable statement to make? I have insufficient technical knowledge to assess it and no desire to learn.


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I post very infrequently these days (though I still keep up to date and appreciate the contributions). Anyway, I like to contribute when I come across something that surprises me and I gage to be worth sharing.
> 
> My source component is the Innuos Statement, which feeds the M Scaler and ultimately the Dave. I recently upgraded the source to Statement 'Next Gen' status. And clearly it is quite a noticeable SQ upgrade. (This can be verified on YouTube btw.) When I sent my Stement back to Portugal I was using an SR 'Orange' fuse and when it arrived back at my house with the upgrade complete it had a stock fuse installed. The reason being, they had blown my SR Orange fuse. . So I put 230 hours on it with the stock fuse in situ and there was clearly an upgrade in SQ, despite this retrograde step with the fuse. Now here's the thing: I then installed an SR 'PURPLE' fuse and Jesus Christ!! The jump in SQ was bigger than the albeit significant Next-Gen upgrade from Innuos. Just about everything I value in good hifi changed for the better and not by a small margin either.
> 
> ...



That is interesting and I am pleased for your result. 

My experience is that every time I have tried exotic fuses I have heard zero difference in sound (or more accurately not enough that I could reliably put it down to the fuses). This has been with £450 SR fuses and with QSA fuses costing up to £1000 (although also trying their cheaper options as well). I have tried them in the 13A plugs and I have tried them in the mains inlets on the devices. Each time and wherever, zero difference or at least so small that I personally could attribute it to inaccurate audio memory between changing the fuses.

Mind you, I admit I am not a good candidate to try fuses because of a natural inclination not to comprehend how they can make any difference. If it was the bottle neck theory then a 5mm copper rod cut down to fuse length would sound best. One person I know on here has done that and suggest I at least try it.

I was under the impression was that some fuses such as QSA are not dealing with the fuse element as such but are rather dealing with ‘treatments’ to the fuse and this treatment can also be applied to many electrical components.

I say all of this knowing that many swear by the SQ improvements due to fuses but so far I am not one of them. Mind you my experiments have always been with borrowed fuses and I have not paid for them if that makes any difference. 😀


----------



## burbster

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I post very infrequently these days (though I still keep up to date and appreciate the contributions). Anyway, I like to contribute when I come across something that surprises me and I gage to be worth sharing.
> 
> My source component is the Innuos Statement, which feeds the M Scaler and ultimately the Dave. I recently upgraded the source to Statement 'Next Gen' status. And clearly it is quite a noticeable SQ upgrade. (This can be verified on YouTube btw.) When I sent my Stement back to Portugal I was using an SR 'Orange' fuse and when it arrived back at my house with the upgrade complete it had a stock fuse installed. The reason being, they had blown my SR Orange fuse. . So I put 230 hours on it with the stock fuse in situ and there was clearly an upgrade in SQ, despite this retrograde step with the fuse. Now here's the thing: I then installed an SR 'PURPLE' fuse and Jesus Christ!! The jump in SQ was bigger than the albeit significant Next-Gen upgrade from Innuos. Just about everything I value in good hifi changed for the better and not by a small margin either.
> 
> ...


LOL! Yes had a very similar experience recently, but I must admit I was a little reticent to post about it for fear of ridicule!   I changed stock fuse in my amp to purple fuse. Amazed at the difference, and being an electrical engineer, it sort made me question my whole understanding of the subject,  we clearly have so little idea of what must actually be happening on a quantum level. 

@Triode User  I have also (where it is safe to do so) replaced a number of fuses with copper bar, as this was a much cheaper option!! Definitely worth a try!! 

Has anyone upgraded the fuse in their Dave DC4? That will be my next experiment.


----------



## DaveRedRef-III

This was the internal fuse on the Innuos product TU. I am confident if you tried an SR purple fuse in your Innuos product you would notice a difference even before it is run-in. I am really surprised you have not noticed a difference in the past but I have not listened to any of the other brands, so can't comment. Hifi can be puzzling at times.


----------



## Triode User

DaveRedRef-III said:


> This was the internal fuse on the Innuos product TU. I am confident if you tried an SR purple fuse in your Innuos product you would notice a difference even before it is run-in. I am really surprised you have not noticed a difference in the past but I have not listened to any of the other brands, so can't comment. Hifi can be puzzling at times.


Although the Statement power supply is close to some versions of Sean Jacobs power supplies so one might anticipate a similar experience with them with the Dave etc?

The person who loaned the QSA fuses to me used to have SR fuses and is now in the process of changing all of them to QSA because of the improved SQ he hears throughout his systems. At one stage I had 8 or 9 QSA loan fuses in my system and no matter where I put then I was pushed to hear any difference. But like I said, I was expecting that result and so it is always possible that my brain was overriding what my ears were actually hearing. I accept that point.


----------



## TheAttorney (Jul 27, 2022)

Triode User said:


> If it was the bottle neck theory then a 5mm copper rod cut down to fuse length would sound best. One person I know on here has done that and suggest I at least try it.


I've tried the copper rod approach in UK Mains plugs (never in the component's internal fuse holder, because that would be dangerous).
And I had mixed feelings with the results. Much better was a silver wire soldered across the terminals. However...

A number of people, such as romaz, have stated that their favourite fuses sound better than a direct connection. This suggests that the secret sauce in such fuses is providing some kind of filtering or conditioning effect. I haven't directly done such a comparison, but based on my subjective reaction to various direct link and audiophile fuse changes over time, I would guess that an SR Orange would _possibly _beat a direct connection, and an SR Purple would _probably_ do so. 

I'm surprised that you didn't notice much difference - because I sometimes find fuses easier to differentiate than, for example, DACs.

Back to DAVE, which doesn't have an internal fuse (I guess instead there's a sacrificial component in DAVE that will require a trip back to the manufacturer if it blows).
Anyway, I have DAVE powered via a Shunyata Alpha V1 power cord which came complete with the reasonably priced AMR Gold fuse. It was a  reasonable upgrade over my previous power cord, but it didn't blow my socks off - until I bypassed the AMR fuse, which subjectively made a bigger impact than the much more expensive power cord upgrade.

Which just goes to show that DAVE is not immune to fuses even though it doesn't have one  .

As always, YMMV.

PS. How did you manage to get a number of QSA fuses on loan?


----------



## MvRBE10

When i at one point changed all fuses for these purple ones coming fron stock fuses i just noticed a sort of gently opening up of the music/stage could be a feeling but it became slightly more engaging. Went back day after and did the same again and after reinstalling it gave that same vibe again. If its worth it thats uo to the listener ofcoarse but in the grand sceme of things i let them in. They say as with all equipment need some burn in time. Will try the back and forth again future when the occasion arrises. 

Had kind of the same experience week ago with rca cables replaced my tellurium q diamond black for a custom made tube kind of rca with two silver wires inside, no shielding and kle harmony rca plugs on the outside. It enlightend the dave more open more musical. And cost a fraction of the telluriums. Bizar learning curve every time.


----------



## odarg64

801evan said:


> With MQA on my setup, things go deeper and blacker. No compromise on Stealth and Susvara. No external needed, stock smps intact. 💪💪


----------



## Triode User

TheAttorney said:


> PS. How did you manage to get a number of QSA fuses on loan?


If one is nice with people and they trust you then it is amazing what can be offered. This was a private individual just being nice to me.


----------



## Reactcore (Jul 27, 2022)

TheAttorney said:


> Back to DAVE, which doesn't have an internal fuse



In my opinion why fuses can bring SQ changes is that they add resistance in the power feed making the voltage to the OP stage a tiny bit less immune to modulated currents..

Btw i just received the last components to build my supercap precharger.. so i will start making and testing my circuit before adding it to my Dave


----------



## SteveHulk (Jul 27, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> In my opinion why fuses can bring SQ changes is that they add resistance in the power feed making the voltage to the OP stage a tiny bit less immune to modulated currents..


That is very true.

When John Sampson from JS Audio rodded the power supplies on my twin Musical Fidelity A370 mk II power amps the first thing that went was the stock "slo-blo" resistors in the mains feed. These resistors were there to enable the amps to be turned on in a normal domestic setting without tripping the fuses in the fusebox.

They strangle the power supplies.

All devices, including the DAVE, will suffer the ill-effects from such components in the power train. 

The Main system in my house is on an exclusive separate leg of heavy-duty mains wiring direct from the fusebox. 

The downside is that now I have to have the Main system on a 60A fuse, and then I can only turn on one side of each amp at a time. I have to wait about 30s between each switch on to allow the 60A fuse to cool down a bit otherwise it'll trip and I have to reset and start over. 

That's four switch ons just to get the amps going 😀

Sounds like a pain but when I have somebody to listen to the system for the first time it's fun watching them freak out as I go through this procedure 😈

Then it's even more fun watching the movie U571 when those depth charges start going off...

One day I'll install the m scaler and the DAVE with all the mods to the Main system and then we'll see what's what.


----------



## Reactcore

SteveHulk said:


> The downside is that now I have to have the Main system on a 60A fuse, and then I can only turn on one side of each amp at a time.


And the neighbours know when u switch stuff on in the evening.. by the dimming of their lights 😂 just jokin


----------



## EMINENT

DaveRedRef-III said:


> I post very infrequently these days (though I still keep up to date and appreciate the contributions). Anyway, I like to contribute when I come across something that surprises me and I gage to be worth sharing.
> 
> My source component is the Innuos Statement, which feeds the M Scaler and ultimately the Dave. I recently upgraded the source to Statement 'Next Gen' status. And clearly it is quite a noticeable SQ upgrade. (This can be verified on YouTube btw.) When I sent my Stement back to Portugal I was using an SR 'Orange' fuse and when it arrived back at my house with the upgrade complete it had a stock fuse installed. The reason being, they had blown my SR Orange fuse. . So I put 230 hours on it with the stock fuse in situ and there was clearly an upgrade in SQ, despite this retrograde step with the fuse. Now here's the thing: I then installed an SR 'PURPLE' fuse and Jesus Christ!! The jump in SQ was bigger than the albeit significant Next-Gen upgrade from Innuos. Just about everything I value in good hifi changed for the better and not by a small margin either.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing. I had a shocking experience too. Maybe I wouldn't describe it to the extent you have though. Initially, swapping in 3 SR Purples for me had an extra sense of air and softer bass but several days later the bass was back as I remembered. I also experienced something strange with the R26 I got and listening to the stock fuse for a couple days and swapping in the Purple was interesting as this air area was sounding more like I remembered when it was in the X26P. 

Without controlled testing this is difficult to be sure. I guess the real test would be to swap them all back to stock fuses and see if I can tell but i'm too damn lazy.


----------



## kawhia

I have two noob questions: is there a consensus on the best reasonably priced power supply for DAVE? And does it always involve opening DAVE for installation?


----------



## Kentajalli

kawhia said:


> I have two noob questions: is there a consensus on the best reasonably priced power supply for DAVE?


Yes, the factory PSU, already in.


kawhia said:


> And does it always involve opening DAVE for installation?


No it doesn't .


----------



## Triode User (Jul 27, 2022)

kawhia said:


> I have two noob questions: is there a consensus on the best reasonably priced power supply for DAVE? And does it always involve opening DAVE for installation?


The simple answer is you do NOT NEED a third party power supply. Most owners are perfectly happy to leave it as designed.

IF you have the inclination and the funds to dabble in power supplies then your budget limitations may make up your mind for you but if you can stretch to buy whatever is the best then spend time and try to find Head-Fi members near you who have done the conversions and then go and listen to both. Having used farad and Sean Jacobs on DACs I am very sure that the Sean Jacobs is worth the extra but in an ideal world you should hear both before deciding.

Changing the power supply does always involve taking the Dave top off but in all honesty if you have ever wired a mains plug then that involves more skill than doing the power supply swop.


----------



## DJW50

Triode User said:


> The simple answer is you do NOT NEED a third party power supply. Most owners are perfectly happy to leave it as designed.
> 
> IF you have the inclination and the funds to dabble in power supplies then your budget limitations may make up your mind for you but if you can stretch to buy whatever is the best then spend time and try to find Head-Fi members near you who have done the conversions and then go and listen to both. Having used farad and Sean Jacobs on DACs I am very sure that the Sean Jacobs is worth the extra but in an ideal world you should hear both before deciding.
> 
> Changing the power supply does always involve taking the Dave top off but in all honesty if you have ever wired a mains plug then that involves more skill than doing the power supply swop.


That's handy to know, my skill level is slightly beyond wiring a plug so there'll be no stopping me. But as I have a PS Audio Powerplant regenerator would it be overkill?


----------



## MvRBE10

DJW50 said:


> That's handy to know, my skill level is slightly beyond wiring a plug so there'll be no stopping me. But as I have a PS Audio Powerplant regenerator would it be overkill?


Do some rereading on this forum you will find tons of info about this subject that will take at least 5 hours of reading and it will answer al your questions and more. Even install manuals are already on this thread😁 with pictures.


----------



## Triode User

DJW50 said:


> That's handy to know, my skill level is slightly beyond wiring a plug so there'll be no stopping me. But as I have a PS Audio Powerplant regenerator would it be overkill?


I have never had good results from regenerators. I have owned three over the last 5 years and was glad to see them go. For me the sound was slightly worse using them than not using them. I will not name them but lets just say they are very known names and cost a lot of money. You might even be familiar with one of them!! The Sean Jacobs was by far a better buy for me in terms of sound quality but the usual YMMV rules apply!


----------



## griff500

Triode User said:


> I have never had good results from regenerators. I have owned three over the last 5 years and was glad to see them go. For me the sound was slightly worse using them than not using them. I will not name them but lets just say they are very known names and cost a lot of money. You might even be familiar with one of them!! The Sean Jacobs was by far a better buy for me in terms of sound quality but the usual YMMV rules apply!


Your power supply situation is better than most if I recall correctly.


----------



## zen87192

Please bere in mind that the new DAVE/Farad Power supply consists of three individual Farad Super 3 units. Not one unit. This is often quoted and compared when attached to an MScaler or other compatible DAC's. This makes a difference in my view.


----------



## Triode User

griff500 said:


> Your power supply situation is better than most if I recall correctly.


Ah, I forgot to say that. Yes we only have three houses off the power company tranformer in the street. But even so, I could measure noise from the regenerators that was pushed back intoi the wall sockets from the regenerator.


----------



## zen87192

Triode User said:


> Ah, I forgot to say that. Yes we only have three houses off the power company tranformer in the street. But even so, I could measure noise from the regenerators that was pushed back intoi the wall sockets from the regenerator.


😱😱 Wow! You must live out in the 'sticks' somewhere then... you need one of those giant Elon Musk Battery 'Walls' installed!!


----------



## Triode User

zen87192 said:


> Please bere in mind that the new DAVE/Farad Power supply consists of three individual Farad Super 3 units. Not one unit. This is often quoted and compared when attached to an MScaler or other compatible DAC's. This makes a difference in my view.


Indeed, but also the Sean jacobs power supply can be configured like that with individual transformers and completely separate boxes for each voltage rail. That is how mine is configured. I have compared to a one box solution with only one one transformer with all three secondary windings off it. The One box solution has a slight disadvantage but it is not great so I would not get too excited about the individual boxes (this is having compared back to back).


----------



## DJW50

Triode User said:


> I have never had good results from regenerators. I have owned three over the last 5 years and was glad to see them go. For me the sound was slightly worse using them than not using them. I will not name them but lets just say they are very known names and cost a lot of money. You might even be familiar with one of them!! The Sean Jacobs was by far a better buy for me in terms of sound quality but the usual YMMV rules apply!


We had a thunderstorm a while back and the regenerator stopped working, it would appear that for some reason I had put back into my electrical box quite a few blown fuses. So I was in the process of sending it back, in the mean time I was using my original extension lead the one with a conditioner. I managed to find an unblown fuse and got the regenerator working. I liked the sound on clean from the regenerator for sure when it came back to life, I also include having a LPS for the Qutest.


----------



## zen87192

SJ vs Farad Super 3 not really a fair/great contest though is it. I was relating to Single Farad Super 3 vs muliple Farad Super 3.


----------



## Triode User

zen87192 said:


> 😱😱 Wow! You must live out in the 'sticks' somewhere then... you need one of those giant Elon Musk Battery 'Walls' installed!!


Yes indeed. Out In the Sticks is exactly where we are on a small old farm in between villages in the Vale of Belvoir just north of Melton Mowbray. Being so close to the power company transformer does have issues in that our mains voltage is around 250V most of the day and often goes up to 253V. I got the regenerators initially to be able to control the mains voltage because my 845 triode amplifiers always ran a bit too ‘hot’ due to the voltage. I even had one redplate and go into runaway. Luckily I spotted what was happening and pulled the plug from the wall just in time.


----------



## Triode User

zen87192 said:


> SJ vs Farad Super 3 not really a fair/great contest though is it. I was relating to Single Farad Super 3 vs muliple Farad Super 3.


Sorry I misunderstood what you meant.


----------



## ZappaMan

Triode User said:


> Yes indeed. Out In the Sticks is exactly where we are on a small old farm in between villages in the Vale of Belvoir just north of Melton Mowbray. Being so close to the power company transformer does have issues in that our mains voltage is around 250V most of the day and often goes up to 253V. I got the regenerators initially to be able to control the mains voltage because my 845 triode amplifiers always ran a bit too ‘hot’ due to the voltage. I even had one redplate and go into runaway. Luckily I spotted what was happening and pulled the plug from the wall just in time.


If your voltage is 250, does that increase your power bill lol?


----------



## Triode User

ZappaMan said:


> If your voltage is 250, does that increase your power bill lol?


The sly dogs! Yes it might. You need eyes in the back of your head these days!


----------



## Kentajalli

Triode User said:


> The sly dogs! Yes it might. You need eyes in the back of your head these days!


I packed up my class A tube amps. I use a solid state these days!
Honest . . .


----------



## miketlse

Triode User said:


> Yes indeed. Out In the Sticks is exactly where we are on a small old farm in between villages in the Vale of Belvoir just north of Melton Mowbray. Being so close to the power company transformer does have issues in that our mains voltage is around 250V most of the day and often goes up to 253V. I got the regenerators initially to be able to control the mains voltage because my 845 triode amplifiers always ran a bit too ‘hot’ due to the voltage. I even had one redplate and go into runaway. Luckily I spotted what was happening and pulled the plug from the wall just in time.


Does remind me a bit about a post from maybe a decade ago, from a poster who lived near a hydro-electricity project, that provided plenty of eco-friendly electricity, but also provided mains electricity with inconvenient electrical frequencies/distortion. All of these type of issues are addressable, and Triode I think you are one of the better informed stakeholders, so hopefully you can influence the way forward.


----------



## Reactcore

kawhia said:


> I have two noob questions: is there a consensus on the best reasonably priced power supply for DAVE? And does it always involve opening DAVE for installation?



If its to combat Net RF.. you can also power Dave with 140v DC off batteries.. you wont need to open it then.

I had another idea lately that i might try once.. what if one uses 4 commercial 40v solar panels in series with led arrays attached.. placed in the basement, shed or attic wired to a standard power socket near the audiogear.

No charging needed then.. and completely isolated from net RF


----------



## Ards

DJW50 said:


> That's handy to know, my skill level is slightly beyond wiring a plug so there'll be no stopping me. But as I have a PS Audio Powerplant regenerator would it be overkill?


FWIW, using a P12 here and the benefits with DAVE power supply upgrade (Farad, in my case) are very positive.


----------



## alphaman

Don’t own a single Chord product. Had no plans to acquire until ASR started puttin’ out da vidz. Now methinks it’s time to order up a DAC … mail order with a brief detour thru the Seattle area. A lab tech called Amir wants to unbox therapy first. Uhnnnnn! Oh I need some extra TP for that messy squeeze. Uggghhhhhhhhnnnnn!


----------



## TheAttorney

.


----------



## Kentajalli

alphaman said:


> Don’t own a single Chord product. Had no plans to acquire until ASR started puttin’ out da vidz. Now methinks it’s time to order up a DAC … mail order with a brief detour thru the Seattle area. A lab tech called Amir wants to unbox therapy first. Uhnnnnn! Oh I need some extra TP for that messy squeeze. Uggghhhhhhhhnnnnn!


I know on ASR personal insults and name callings are business of the day!
But if it is wrong over there, does it mean Head-fi has to emulate?
So, please, do not stoop to the level of name-calling and ridicule.
Let's not get personal. Even (specially) when they do!


----------



## ra990

alphaman said:


> Uhnnnnn! Oh I need some extra TP for that messy squeeze. Uggghhhhhhhhnnnnn!


I've never read/heard this sound before "Uggghhhhhhhhnnnnn". Are you ok?


----------



## Somatic

Wow so even with Farad the regenerator helps? I have a ZeroSurge unit between the wall and the LPS ...



Ards said:


> FWIW, using a P12 here and the benefits with DAVE power supply upgrade (Farad, in my case) are very positive.


----------



## Triode User

Somatic said:


> Wow so even with Farad the regenerator helps? I have a ZeroSurge unit between the wall and the LPS ...


Don’t forget that any persons comments regarding the effect of power conditioning or regenerators are entirely personal to them and their mains supply. I am lucky and have pretty low noise mains with no factory or offices nearby and only a handful of other houses on the power company transformer. The only effect I have noticed with a regenerator (P10) is a degrading of the sound quality. So whilst for some they may help, for others they can have a negative impact. Try before you buy is the best/only motto here.


----------



## audio_1

Triode User said:


> That is interesting and I am pleased for your result.
> 
> My experience is that every time I have tried exotic fuses I have heard zero difference in sound (or more accurately not enough that I could reliably put it down to the fuses). This has been with £450 SR fuses and with QSA fuses costing up to £1000 (although also trying their cheaper options as well). I have tried them in the 13A plugs and I have tried them in the mains inlets on the devices. Each time and wherever, zero difference or at least so small that I personally could attribute it to inaccurate audio memory between changing the fuses.
> 
> ...


I use Schuko plugs and sockets in my system as the UK 13 amp plug and socket are so badly designed. This obviously eliminates the plug fuse. My Niagara 7000 is the European Schuko version.


----------



## audio_1

MvRBE10 said:


> When i at one point changed all fuses for these purple ones coming fron stock fuses i just noticed a sort of gently opening up of the music/stage could be a feeling but it became slightly more engaging. Went back day after and did the same again and after reinstalling it gave that same vibe again. If its worth it thats uo to the listener ofcoarse but in the grand sceme of things i let them in. They say as with all equipment need some burn in time. Will try the back and forth again future when the occasion arrises.
> 
> Had kind of the same experience week ago with rca cables replaced my tellurium q diamond black for a custom made tube kind of rca with two silver wires inside, no shielding and kle harmony rca plugs on the outside. It enlightend the dave more open more musical. And cost a fraction of the telluriums. Bizar learning curve every time.


I was never a fan of Tellurium cables as they provide absolutely no information on the cable geometries or materials used. I only consider equipment from manufactures where I agree with their design principles. For example Chord Electronics dacs, Audionet single ended power amps and Børresen loudspeakers (Light carbon fibre membranes, low inductance, planar ribbon almost zero mass tweeter membrane etc.)


----------



## audio_1

SteveHulk said:


> That is very true.
> 
> When John Sampson from JS Audio rodded the power supplies on my twin Musical Fidelity A370 mk II power amps the first thing that went was the stock "slo-blo" resistors in the mains feed. These resistors were there to enable the amps to be turned on in a normal domestic setting without tripping the fuses in the fusebox.
> 
> ...


With Dave and the M scaler installed it will be incredible!


----------



## MvRBE10

audio_1 said:


> I was never a fan of Tellurium cables as they provide absolutely no information on the cable geometries or materials used. I only consider equipment from manufactures where I agree with their design principles. For example Chord Electronics dacs, Audionet single ended power amps and Børresen loudspeakers (Light carbon fibre membranes, low inductance, planar ribbon almost zero mass tweeter membrane etc.)


Yes indeed long journy of listening learning and applying and indeed for the most it is indeed what you say. Using pink faun amplifiers now, straight from the designer and no feed back design only good components and good power supply in there and man sings and it beats every big marketed amp i heard until now… maybe except the jeff rowland 625 s2 heard the 625 and that one is on my list to demo or just buy and listen or a set 725 whatever comes first. You have to try everything in life.


----------



## Ards

Triode User said:


> Don’t forget that any persons comments regarding the effect of power conditioning or regenerators are entirely personal to them and their mains supply.


This is true.   I live in a big old Victorian house with 3-phase wiring and a nearby substation.  The P12 gives me constant 230v and consistent sound quality, whereas without it I get power and sound quality swings all day long.


----------



## DJW50

Ards said:


> This is true.   I live in a big old Victorian house with 3-phase wiring and a nearby substation.  The P12 gives me constant 230v and consistent sound quality, whereas without it I get power and sound quality swings all day long.


I did a great deal of internet research before buying mine, as you say if you have iffy power delivery it's a no brainer plus I also read on many occasions it's the final icing on the cake of a high end system. A good friend of mine who has spent a fortune on hifi actually paid to have a separated spur run into his home just for his hifi. At the level my system will ultimately be once I try and perhaps get a DAVE it seems silly not to have this device.


----------



## Triode User

DJW50 said:


> I did a great deal of internet research before buying mine, as you say if you have iffy power delivery it's a no brainer plus I also read on many occasions it's the final icing on the cake of a high end system. A good friend of mine who has spent a fortune on hifi actually paid to have a separated spur run into his home just for his hifi. At the level my system will ultimately be once I try and perhaps get a DAVE it seems silly not to have this device.


Like I have said several times, they seem to work for some but not others. My comments regarding them causing a slight hardening to the sound, principally in the treble, have coincided with other users similar experiences.

My best results have been from using balanced mains transformers from UK companies such as Airlink or with the more visually attractive but same spec offerings from the like of PliXir. Both of these are the only mains supply equipment that I have found to give benefits in SQ but with no downsides.


----------



## Ards

Triode User said:


> My best results have been from using balanced mains transformers from UK companies such as Airlink or with the more visually attractive but same spec offerings from the like of PliXir. Both of these are the only mains supply equipment that I have found to give benefits in SQ but with no downsides.


Hadn't heard of either before, but now on the watchlist for future reference.  Thanks.


----------



## KevinJB (Sep 10, 2022)

The Chord DAVE is my end game DAC, hopefully will get one eventually 
I’m planning to buy a new Mojo 2 or Hugo 2 at a physical store in the UK, they stock the DAVE so I’m hoping they will let me listen to the DAVE when I buy my new Mojo or Hugo 2.
Kev


----------



## SteveHulk

KevinJB said:


> The Chord DAVE is my end game DAC, hopefully will get one eventually
> I’m planning to buy a new Mojo 2 or Hugo 2 at a physical store in the UK, they stock the DAVE so I’m hoping they will let me listen to the DAVE when I buy my new Mojo or Hugo 2.
> Kev


Try buying a second-hand Hugo 2, it'll be good as new except maybe the batteries might need to be replaced.

If it is under warranty I think Chord would do this free of charge and restore your device as new.

When you want the DAVE, you'll have a device to trade in that every dealer knows they can sell so it'll get a good price from them. 

In the meantime you'll still have a very good DAC to enjoy. 

Any dealer who is worth a damn will let you audition a DAVE whether you intend to buy anything or not.

They also know that a large majority of people who audition a DAVE will fall in love with it and so they will have another sale as good as done.


----------



## KevinJB (Aug 23, 2022)

.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

SteveHulk said:


> Try buying a second-hand Hugo 2, it'll be good as new except maybe the batteries might need to be replaced.
> 
> If it is under warranty I think Chord would do this free of charge and restore your device as new.
> 
> ...



You're right, I auditioned DAVE at home and fell in love with it, now that it has been over 7 years of DAVE being released, I wonder if Rob is working on DAVE 2.


----------



## KevinJB (Sep 10, 2022)

I just need to keep saving and one day upgrade to the DAVE 
Kev


----------



## johnwillmclean

The Dave cannot be a state of the art DAC if I need to buy other products to make it sound better. It’s simply absurd. 
Why don’t Chord just make a single state of the art DAC instead of an obviously floored design. Include the M scaler and include a decent linear power supply without noise into single DAC.
Chuck in an audiophile fuse while they’re at it.


----------



## Hooster

johnwillmclean said:


> *The Dave cannot be a state of the art DAC if I need to buy other products to make it sound better. *It’s simply absurd.
> Why don’t Chord just make a single state of the art DAC instead of an obviously floored design. Include the M scaler and include a decent linear power supply without noise into single DAC.
> Chuck in an audiophile fuse while they’re at it.



These days a true state of the art DAC has performance that is close to impeccable without any band aids at a price that is an order of magnitude less than what a DAVE costs. Are you suggesting that Chord try to compete in that market? I doubt they have any particular interest in going there.

Chord is in the market of audiophile enthusiasts who value design and fun as part of the hobby. Trying things with and without an M scaler, testing different power supplies, cables, etc. is what the fun is all about. Just sticking everything into one simple functional box that does it all impeccably kind of removes that experience. 

Given the huge improvements that have been made in DACs since DAVE was designed there is no way it can be state of the art any more. Is it a fun cool product that many people enjoy? You bet, DAVE is cool.


----------



## Reactcore

KevinJB said:


> It’s going to be a good few years before I can afford the DAVE so I hope by then there is a new version out 🙂
> Kev


Theres also the Qutest as a pure DAC.
I preferred its tone over H2 and its more affordable. 

One can even drive a HP direct out of its RCA's using volume adjustment on a player


----------



## The Jester

johnwillmclean said:


> The Dave cannot be a state of the art DAC if I need to buy other products to make it sound better. It’s simply absurd.
> Why don’t Chord just make a single state of the art DAC instead of an obviously floored design. Include the M scaler and include a decent linear power supply without noise into single DAC.
> Chuck in an audiophile fuse while they’re at it.


Same reason as all seperates, isolation … 
Adding external processing power from the MScaler reduces the processing load on the DAC, if users wish to go for more isolation between extensive digital processing done by the MScaler and the D/A conversion by the DAC with specialty cables or optical isolation solutions that option is there…


----------



## ZappaMan

Hooster said:


> These days a true state of the art DAC has performance that is close to impeccable without any band aids at a price that is an order of magnitude less than what a DAVE costs. Are you suggesting that Chord try to compete in that market? I doubt they have any particular interest in going there.
> 
> Chord is in the market of audiophile enthusiasts who value design and fun as part of the hobby. Trying things with and without an M scaler, testing different power supplies, cables, etc. is what the fun is all about. Just sticking everything into one simple functional box that does it all impeccably kind of removes that experience.
> 
> Given the huge improvements that have been made in DACs since DAVE was designed there is no way it can be state of the art any more. Is it a fun cool product that many people enjoy? You bet, DAVE is cool.


What is the dac that has it all ?


----------



## Hooster

ZappaMan said:


> What is the dac that has it all ?



Well, finding that is a personal journey that I can't make for you. The joy is in the journey, sometimes even more so than in the destination. Just remember that one man's trash is another man's treasure.


----------



## Kentajalli (Jul 29, 2022)

ZappaMan said:


> What is the dac that has it all ?


I doubt @Hooster is arguing for such a DAC.
I agree with him, that Dave buyers, are after the fun and uniqueness of owning such a device.
Adding Mscaler, a linear PSU (against RW advice!), trying different cables, using cones or spikes on isolated platforms, are all part of the experience and the fun.
Indeed, I sarcastically blamed RW for not coming up with a 3 or four box solution at 20K, for such clients! they obviously are serious about their hobby and have deep pockets to go with it (how much is a Farad3 anyway?), so why not?!
3 or more box solution, with an _Oven Clock _generator, that can be upgraded.
Mscaler, or perhaps a DMscaler (deka-million scaler!). PSU section of course!
Those, who want a one box solution, can get an amplifier with built-in DAC, headphone amp from a reputable brand.
There is always a 70s style Music-Centre!
Oops, sorry , those went the way of Dodo!


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Kentajalli said:


> I doubt @Hooster is arguing for such a DAC.
> I agree with him, that Dave buyers, are after the fun and uniqueness of owning such a device.
> Adding Mscaler, a linear PSU (against RW advice!), trying different cables, using cones or spikes on isolated platforms, are all part of the experience and the fun.
> Indeed, I sarcastically blamed RW for not coming up with a 3 or four box solution at 20K, for such clients! they obviously are serious about their hobby and have deep pockets to go with it (how much is a Farad3 anyway?), so why not?!
> ...



Rob doesn't believe these power supplies make any difference, the SMPS power supply inside DAVE is enough, I haven't tried it myself so I wouldn't know.   I think the DAVE sounds wonderful as a DAC with its stock power supply.


----------



## SteveHulk

KevinJB said:


> It’s going to be a good few years before I can afford the DAVE so I hope by then there is a new version out 🙂
> Kev


The same thing applies 😀

Get a current DAVE second hand when you can by trading in the Hugo 2. When DAVE 2 or GOLIATH or whatever it is comes out, rinse and repeat!

That way you stay on the escalator. Otherwise the price of the new device will forever run away from you.


----------



## johnwillmclean

Sounds like Chord have a good thing going, with a fun loving customer base to wiggle money from they’d milking the cash cow.
I didn’t know it would that easy!


----------



## SteveHulk

johnwillmclean said:


> The Dave cannot be a state of the art DAC if I need to buy other products to make it sound better. It’s simply absurd.
> Why don’t Chord just make a single state of the art DAC instead of an obviously floored design. Include the M scaler and include a decent linear power supply without noise into single DAC.
> Chuck in an audiophile fuse while they’re at it.


If they did this, the DAVE would be £25k+ and in an ENTIRELY different market to that which Chord chose to address.


----------



## SteveHulk

johnwillmclean said:


> Sounds like Chord have a good thing going, with a fun loving customer base to wiggle money from they’d milking the cash cow.
> I didn’t know it would that easy!


I don't think they are really milking it on the DAVE as much as you think.

If they were, following the lead of many other manufacturers, they would have produced an £8k to £10k PSU as an upgrade! 😀


----------



## johnwillmclean

GuiltyRocker said:


> Rob doesn't believe these power supplies make any difference, the SMPS power supply inside DAVE is enough, I haven't tried it myself so I wouldn't know.   I think the DAVE sounds wonderful as a DAC with its stock power supply.


I see. Rob doesn’t believe power supplies make difference - yet his company sells very expensive cables because they do make a difference. Like the logic.


----------



## KevinJB (Sep 10, 2022)

I didn’t realise Chord Electronics made cables, are you mixing them up with Chord ( the cable company)
Kev


----------



## johnwillmclean

SteveHulk said:


> I don't think they are really milking it on the DAVE as much as you think.
> 
> If they were, following the lead of many other manufacturers, they would have produced an £8k to £10k PSU as an upgrade! 😀


Good point.


----------



## johnwillmclean

KevinJB said:


> I didn’t realise Chord Electronics made cables, are you mixing them up with Chord ( the cable company)


My bad.


----------



## Kentajalli (Jul 29, 2022)

johnwillmclean said:


> My bad.


Big of you to admit.
This brings us to a point:
- If you intend on praising something or knocking it, you always manage to find your evidence!
Best to be objective, and not approach anything with any intent!
Price is irrelevant! Some have , some don't.
It is foolish to argue that that Rolex buyers are being taken advantage of, because a $10 Seiko keeps better or as good a time!


----------



## KevinJB (Sep 10, 2022)

I’m planning to listen to a DAVE when I go to a store to upgrade my Chord Mojo to Mojo2
Kev


----------



## johnwillmclean

Kentajalli said:


> Big of you to admit.
> This brings us to a point:
> - If you intend on praising something or knocking it, you always manage to find your evidence!
> Best to be objective, and not approach anything with any intent!
> ...


The evidence is the ASR review.
Price does matter to folk on a budget that want the best performance. 
They don’t have to waste their money on an expensive marketing toy.
But if you like bling and toys have fun with DAVE - nothing wrong with that.


----------



## Kentajalli

johnwillmclean said:


> The evidence is the ASR review.
> Price does matter to folk on a budget that want the best performance.
> They don’t have to waste their money on an expensive marketing toy.
> But if you like bling and toys have fun with DAVE - nothing wrong with that.


How did I know, you were coming from that camp?
Poor people, value for money seeking smart-buyers, better stay away from Chord DACs past Hugo2! Rolex watches, designer clothes, top restaurants, glitzy hotels, Lamborghinis, . . . . should I keep going?
Ever heard of the notion of _Diminishing returns? _
The ASR review, has zero effect on Dave potential buyers!
They _Have _the money! don't mind paying it - and will take anything ASR says negatively, about anything Chord, with a bucket of salt anyway!
Why? because of the ongoing blood-fued between ASR and Chord. If somehow, ASR and Chord could hug it out one day, I am sure it would elevate ASR to a new standing.
Come to think of it, it is not just Chord, is it? 
ASR members can get very combative about their own beliefs, to me it diminishes them, even when they do have a point.
I love ASR! but just like my daughter, I am aware of her tempers!


----------



## Somafunk

Kentajalli said:


> Why? because of the ongoing blood-fued between ASR and Chord.



C’mon, lower the tone a bit as describing a disagreement however opinionated as a blood-fued is utterly hyperbolic and unnecessary.


----------



## RobertSM (Jul 29, 2022)

johnwillmclean said:


> Sounds like Chord have a good thing going, with a fun loving customer base to wiggle money from they’d milking the cash cow.
> I didn’t know it would that easy!



This guy again?!

Yes, he was gracing us with his presence in the Lina thread a week ago or two ago.

Let people spend money as they chose to. Chord DAVE, dCS Lina, ect.

Heck I was in Zurich, Switzerland last week and I spent a good chunk on a incredible Weiss DAC501 4-Ch. I even got to meet the man himself, Daniel Weiss  who delivered my DAC to me at my hotel.

No judgments through right?

How about this...you don't tell me how to spend my money and I won't tell you how to spend yours.

Easy.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

The ASR review is useless, no time correction measurements, which is what Rob Watts specializes on.  No measurements of the performance of the noise shaper and the interpolation filter, only a minor brick wall filter test, even that test showed that Chord's filter is better than all others.  Then of course the guy harps on The useless SINAD measurement, we have already argued this topic, move on already.  It is known that Rob Watts and Chord ignore ASR, they are not happy about that.  Guess what, Rob and Chord don't need ASR's help.


----------



## Sampajanna

I dont mind if those folks wanna argue and troll each other in ASR. I just wish they wouldn’t come on other forums and spread their bias they call “objectivity,” tarnishing he good name of science and objectivity. Here is quote from Amir:


“I am not a scientist. I am doing what a reviewer should do in context of testing a technical product. They need to use instrumentation to figure out what it does. Not faulty ears and listening test practices. I have no lab coat, nor will ever wear one. This is simple engineering verification. Please don't elevate it to "science" and then say "it is not science."

I can train a technician to run my tests in a day. Surely he is not doing science. I use science extensively in analysis of said data but again, usage does not equal science.”


Wonder then why it is called “Audio SCIENCE Review” since there is no science.


----------



## Sampajanna (Jul 29, 2022)

Just to be clear, I am happy that people are measuring products. I do think measurements are more objective than listening. I don‘t mind measurements, what I mind are all the opinions, conjectures and implications based on those measurements which are then touted to be as “objective” as the measurements themselves. Measuring something is fine, but interpreting what it means and then making values based on those interpretations is another. For example, show me the data that SINAD is a useful tool for ranking equipment and that these rankings are valid in terms of value. If the differences between two dacs’ SINAD is inaudible, how does this spec even matter at all?

If you ASR crowd presented your opinions as opinions, they would just be one amongst many, and welcome on forums. But you don’t, you express them as fact, holy fact. Amir does the same. He doesnt just measure and share measurements; he peppers the measurements with opinions, sniggering and derision (or sometimes praise). He opines as he shares his measurements and does so with hubris, as if his opinions are more true than others because he has measured the device.

The idea that a dac with certain specs being ranked on a scale compared to others is a value. It is not data. You can put a bunch of dacs on a SINAD scale and say “look at all the other dacs with higher SINAD than Dave,” but the opinions on the Dave or other dacs drawn from that arent any more valid than any other opinion. The idea that “the higher the SINAD the better the dac” is a value; it is not science, nor objectivity.

Dac A has SINAD 112, Dac B is 120 = objective

”Dac A sucks,” ”Dac A is a ripoff,” “I dont recommend dac A” = opinion. Not objectivity

Science = questions, explorations; not foolish certainty. A scientist would look at the two numbers 112 & 120 and then create a proper experiment to determine if these SINAD measurements correlated to enjoyment levels across a broad spectrum of people listening blind, a group who represented the spectrum of the market. A true scientist would be hesitant to make a value judgment based on the measurements. But, as Amir said himself, he is not doing science. He is doing basic measurements that may only matter below a certain threshold of dysfunction.

i dont mind if the ASR way is your value system, nor that you have a forum for fellowship with like-minded people. But why come to a party where everyone is enjoying themselves and start shouting about the chemical constitution of the wine we all ordered and how it is a rip off since the cheaper wine is better? Then we ask you what “better” means and you show us a chart measuring acidity levels…


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Sampajanna said:


> Just to be clear, I am happy that people are measuring products. I do think measurements are more objective than listening. I don‘t mind measurements, what I mind are all the opinions, conjectures and implications based on those measurements which are then touted to be as “objective” as the measurements themselves. Measuring something is fine, but interpreting what it means and then making values based on those interpretations is another. For example, show me the data that SINAD is a useful tool for ranking equipment and that these rankings are valid in terms of value. If the differences between two dacs’ SINAD is inaudible, how does this spec even matter at all?
> 
> If you ASR crowd presented your opinions as opinions, they would just be one amongst many, and welcome on forums. But you don’t, you express them as fact, holy fact. Amir does the same. He doesnt just measure and share measurements; he peppers the measurements with opinions, sniggering and derision (or sometimes praise). He opines as he shares his measurements and does so with hubris, as if his opinions are more true than others because he has measured the device.
> 
> ...



Well done, this is a fantastic analysis of the whole ASR attitude and the way it's affecting this forum.  Thank you.


----------



## miketlse

johnwillmclean said:


> I see. Rob doesn’t believe power supplies make difference - yet his company sells very expensive cables because they do make a difference. Like the logic.


You do realise that chord electronics and that chord cables are two different companies?
Also Rob is not a Chord employee, so you need to clarify what you mean by 'his company '.


----------



## johnwillmclean

RobertSM said:


> This guy again?!
> 
> Yes, he was gracing us with his presence in the Lina thread a week ago or two ago.
> 
> ...


 
You really bite back with some hostility. I like to stir the pot for a bit of debate - why take it so personally?


----------



## alxw0w (Jul 30, 2022)

johnwillmclean said:


> You really bite back with some hostility. I like to stir the pot for a bit of debate - why take it so personally?



You want debate and you post something like this:


johnwillmclean said:


> Sounds like Chord have a good thing going, with a fun loving customer base to wiggle money from they’d milking the cash cow.
> I didn’t know it would that easy!



Looking how people spend their own money.🤦‍♂️
What is the next question?


----------



## miketlse

johnwillmclean said:


> You really bite back with some hostility. I like to stir the pot for a bit of debate - why take it so personally?


That is a similar line of reasoning to that used by individuals accused of racism, sexism, abuse etc, who try and justify their comments/insults as 'just banter'.


----------



## paulrbarnard

johnwillmclean said:


> My bad.


If you want to come poke the bears it is best to do a little more homework first.


----------



## DJW50

On an more constructive note I've just watched this, I like this guy he is just about spot on for my taste.


----------



## Malcyg

Things would be less stressful and threads more enjoyable and informative if people could just resist and refrain from responding to comments designed purely to provoke. Never going to happen unfortunately.

On the subject of value, there are DAC’s that cost more than £100,000. Chord DAC’s surely offer good value for money in that context.


----------



## DJW50

Malcyg said:


> Things would be less stressful and threads more enjoyable and informative if people could just resist and refrain from responding to comments designed purely to provoke. Never going to happen unfortunately.
> 
> On the subject of value, there are DAC’s that cost more than £100,000. Chord DAC’s surely offer good value for money in that context.


As you say never going to happen, I liken the chap who presents ASR to a politician here in the UK called Nigel Farage who really when it boils down to it is just a disruptor, he throws red meat to his rabid followers who feel it their duty to go and do some more disrupting on his behalf. I have watched a few ASR videos but have blocked his content from my subscriptions as there are far more interesting videos on Youtube.


----------



## Triode User

Malcyg said:


> Things would be less stressful and threads more enjoyable and informative if people could just resist and refrain from responding to comments designed purely to provoke. Never going to happen unfortunately.
> 
> On the subject of value, there are DAC’s that cost more than £100,000. Chord DAC’s surely offer good value for money in that context.


When the most recent agent provocateur posted in the thread I nearly ignored my decision not to give them the oxygen they thrive and I nearly posted a reply. If we can all resist playing their game and not reply to their posts they will soon get bored and go elsewhere where it is more fun and where they can stir up storms of indignation.


----------



## Kentajalli (Jul 30, 2022)

Triode User said:


> When the most recent *agent provocateur *posted in the thread I nearly ignored my decision not to give them the oxygen they thrive and I nearly posted a reply. If we can all resist playing their game and not reply to their posts they will soon get bored and go elsewhere where it is more fun and where they can stir up storms of indignation.


Let's do play the game, but in a correct and respectful manner, try to avoid name-calling such as above.
Let us lead by example!
Yes there may be _agents _anywhere, and some of my posts on head-fi, have mysteriously found their way to Amir's desk - and caused? . . .  let's call it disappointment!
Give everybody the benefit of the doubt (me thinks!), do engage them respectfully and objectively, as far as you can. Obviously, when they start showing disrespect or show their true colours, then by all means _ignore_!


Somafunk said:


> C’mon, lower the tone a bit as describing a disagreement however opinionated as a blood-fued is utterly hyperbolic and unnecessary.


Disagreement is waaaay too mild a description! Blood-feud was exaggerated to make a point, feud is more apt!
And as far as I have seen, it is one-sided, meaning I have not seen any crap-slinging, name-calling coming from Chord, nor RW.
Just spend a week (if you last that long) on any Chord related thread on ASR. See how certain groups of members (laaaarge groups!) flock from one thread to another, not to be critical of the device, but to attack RW as a person mostly, and Chord as a company.
There was a barrage of posts (On Hugo2 review thread) ridiculing RW and his quote that a 104.25Mhz clock being integers of both 44.1kHz and 48kHz. They used a calculator and called him all sorts. After I put a post. With bold heading, explaining how the ratios work, the thread came to a stop! I put the post on 25 June July, and first post after that is today! so far nobody has questioned the _reasoning_, I posted.
I saw a photoshopped picture of RW, shown as an ol' west snake-oil merchant, getting a lot of _likes_!
Feud , it is, and is getting bitchier and bitchier! I really hope it stops, ASR is a valuable source of information, but it is getting an awful name, because of it.


----------



## Articnoise

Sampajanna said:


> Just to be clear, I am happy that people are measuring products. I do think measurements are more objective than listening. I don‘t mind measurements, what I mind are all the opinions, conjectures and implications based on those measurements which are then touted to be as “objective” as the measurements themselves. Measuring something is fine, but interpreting what it means and then making values based on those interpretations is another. For example, show me the data that SINAD is a useful tool for ranking equipment and that these rankings are valid in terms of value. If the differences between two dacs’ SINAD is inaudible, how does this spec even matter at all?
> 
> If you ASR crowd presented your opinions as opinions, they would just be one amongst many, and welcome on forums. But you don’t, you express them as fact, holy fact. Amir does the same. He doesnt just measure and share measurements; he peppers the measurements with opinions, sniggering and derision (or sometimes praise). He opines as he shares his measurements and does so with hubris, as if his opinions are more true than others because he has measured the device.
> 
> ...



A very good post, the best I have read on Head-fi in a long time. 

BTW maybe important, maybe not, but Chord and RW's own fantastic measurements of Dave was ones a major part in there marketing and a big decision-factor for many.


----------



## zen87192 (Jul 30, 2022)

Currently at CanJam London... brilliant day with lots of Headphones and 'gear'. I was at the Chord Table and had a listen to that 'Anni' with DC Stealth Headphones... pretty good. Also heard some info on the new upcoming Mscaler which was fascinating but not currently for transmission on forums. All I can say is.... not long now to wait....


----------



## zen87192

DJW50 said:


> On an more constructive note I've just watched this, I like this guy he is just about spot on for my taste.



He IS the Man... very sedate and gives appropriate thoughts of his own which are pretty valuable to the review he undertakes. Hans is a very respected reviewer of whom I enjoy listening to.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

zen87192 said:


> He IS the Man... very sedate and gives appropriate thoughts of his own which are pretty valuable to the review he undertakes. Hans is a very respected reviewer of whom I enjoy listening to.



He is a very nice guy.


----------



## Sampajanna

Articnoise said:


> A very good post, the best I have read on Head-fi in a long time.
> 
> BTW maybe important, maybe not, but Chord and RW's own fantastic measurements of Dave was ones a major part in there marketing and a big decision-factor for many.


Thanks. IMHO the Stereophil approach to measurements in a review is much better than ASR. They keep the subjective above and measurements below—separate in other words.


----------



## odarg64 (Jul 30, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> Thanks. IMHO the Stereophil approach to measurements in a review is much better than ASR. They keep the subjective above and measurements below—separate in other words.


Ah, the head-in-the-sand approach.


----------



## Jomungur (Jul 30, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> Just to be clear, I am happy that people are measuring products. I do think measurements are more objective than listening. I don‘t mind measurements, what I mind are all the opinions, conjectures and implications based on those measurements which are then touted to be as “objective” as the measurements themselves. Measuring something is fine, but interpreting what it means and then making values based on those interpretations is another. For example, show me the data that SINAD is a useful tool for ranking equipment and that these rankings are valid in terms of value. If the differences between two dacs’ SINAD is inaudible, how does this spec even matter at all?
> 
> If you ASR crowd presented your opinions as opinions, they would just be one amongst many, and welcome on forums. But you don’t, you express them as fact, holy fact. Amir does the same. He doesnt just measure and share measurements; he peppers the measurements with opinions, sniggering and derision (or sometimes praise). He opines as he shares his measurements and does so with hubris, as if his opinions are more true than others because he has measured the device.
> 
> ...


Very good post.  I don't think everyone who uses ASR is cantankerous and dogmatic, although there are lots of people like that in the forums.  My suggestion if that irritates someone is just ignore the forum discussions and read the reviews taking in account reviewer slant.   At a certain point, ASR can become a bit circular because there's no way to determine how you tie objective measurements to subjective impressions.  Everyone has to figure that out on their own.  Some people will dismiss objective measurements completely, others will dismiss subjective impressions entirely.  For many people on ASR, they already believe that an Iphone DAC is not audibly different than a Rossini DAC so there's no point arguing, really, they're starting from a different framework.

I'm in the middle camp.  For me, subjective impressions are the most important factor, but objective measurements are helpful aids to correct our own biases. To give you some context, I'm the person who submitted the DAVE for review there.  I did this after I tried the Topping 90DSE (on a lark, really) and realized I prefer the latter.  My systems sounds better with the Topping.  I have three; two loudspeakers and one headphones system.   The more high end the system, the better it sounded with the Topping.  I was shocked at first, but it made sense.  The Topping does measure excellent on transparency indicators, like THD and SINAD.  This correlates with my own subjective impressions, the Topping is more transparent than the DAVE.

It goes to what your want out of a DAC.  If you have a lot of high end components like speakers and amps, you probably want your DAC to "get out of the way" as much as possible.  That is, you want something extremely clean and neutral.  The Topping does this better than the DAVE in my subjective opinion.

As far as DACs adding musicality and depth, it's possible for sure.  However, I think (just my opinion) that these qualities are better dealt with using your amp, speakers and also DSP processing, and then also things like speaker placement.   Because in my experience what DACs can add in these categories is very subtle and outweighed by other factors.  Also, using your DAC to add these qualities can interfere with what your amp and speakers are doing; you will need to do some very careful matching to make sure it isn't.

I still think the DAVE sounds very good.  But keep in mind the DAVE was released 7 years ago.  That's a couple of generations in things like computer chips and software; I don't know why it would be shocking if a DAC released in 2022 sounds as good or better at a much lower price.

Lastly, there's a lot of good, unbiased information about sound, measurements and components in the educational sections of ASR.  I've learned a good amount from those.  I wish the forum discussions were more civil and less hostile, but there's more to that site than the forums.


----------



## odarg64

zen87192 said:


> He IS the Man... very sedate and gives appropriate thoughts of his own which are pretty valuable to the review he undertakes. Hans is a very respected reviewer of whom I enjoy listening to.


Why does a $14,000 DAC need an 'upgraded' power supply? Asking for a friend.


----------



## Kentajalli

odarg64 said:


> Why does a $14,000 DAC need an 'upgraded' power supply? Asking for a friend.


It doesn't.
But you can always customize a Lamborghini!
Doesn't need it, but nothing to stop you.


----------



## TheMiddleSky (Jul 30, 2022)

Jomungur said:


> I still think the DAVE sounds very good.  But keep in mind the DAVE was released 7 years ago.  That's a couple of generations in things like computer chips and software; I don't know why it would be shocking if a DAC released in 2022 sounds as good or better at a much lower price.


I just want to inform you that:
1. Chord doesn't use third party dac chip, so in term of technology is a bit different compare to DACs like Topping.
2. Topping D90SE or D90LE may seems like modern DAC because they released at 2021/2022. However, they use Sabre ESS9038PRO chip, that first release was in 2015. In term of computer chip, they are not that modern.

https://www.esstech.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/ES9038PRO-Datasheet-v3.7.pdf

Just this year actually Sabre release ES9039PRO, haven't use to any DAC in the market though.


----------



## Sampajanna (Jul 30, 2022)

Jomungur said:


> Very good post.  I don't think everyone who uses ASR is cantankerous and dogmatic, although there are lots of people like that in the forums.  My suggestion if that irritates someone is just ignore the forum discussions and read the reviews taking in account reviewer slant.   At a certain point, ASR can become a bit circular because there's no way to determine how you tie objective measurements to subjective impressions.  Everyone has to figure that out on their own.  Some people will dismiss objective measurements completely, others will dismiss subjective impressions entirely.  For many people on ASR, they already believe that an Iphone DAC is not audibly different than a Rossini DAC so there's no point arguing, really, they're starting from a different framework.
> 
> I'm in the middle camp.  For me, subjective impressions are the most important factor, but objective measurements are helpful aids to correct our own biases. To give you some context, I'm the person who submitted the DAVE for review there.  I did this after I tried the Topping 90DSE (on a lark, really) and realized I prefer the latter.  My systems sounds better with the Topping.  I have three; two loudspeakers and one headphones system.   The more high end the system, the better it sounded with the Topping.  I was shocked at first, but it made sense.  The Topping does measure excellent on transparency indicators, like THD and SINAD.  This correlates with my own subjective impressions, the Topping is more transparent than the DAVE.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind reply. If everyone from ASR spoke as you do, this and other forums that the ASR crowd visit would welcome them much more and the conversations would proceed in a way that is productive.Unfortuantely, the head in the sand comment above is the typical example. I appreciate the suggestions of exploring other opportunities to learn. I will look into it.

As to your exploration, I have owned the Dave and had Topping in my system as well. I have heard all the Chinese dacs, living in Asia myself. The type of transparency you discuss hearing is itself a subjective value, further highlighting my original point, which is that measurements do not equate to values and there is no data showing that any given measurement is more enjoyable to people. Even the proof that a given piece of equipment is more accurate is not proof it sounds better to humans. ”the more accurate the better” is a value. Some guys love warm, gooey systems full of tubes, etc. The fact is that I am not a computer. You cannot use a measurement device to yuck my yum.  You could show that a product is engineered poorly or doesnt do what it is purported to do. We should be using measurements to explore and discover, not denigrate, opine and conjecture.

You are looking for a dac to get out of the way and that is a valid approach indeed. I too have a very nice system, but that is not my current approach. I have a tube dac that is doing more beyond that. I like it so much I have ordered the flagship model blind (this is the first product I bought without hearing). What you are looking to do in your ssystem building is a valid approach and I am sure I could learn from it. For me, I build systems around the source, which is, in a digital rig, the dac (or dac streamer combo). There are many roads to audio nirvana... I am glad you find help at ASR and I am open to the possibility that I could as well, but it seems doubtful. For starters, the folks there do not seem to be having much fun at all…


----------



## elevensheep

Kentajalli said:


> Let's do play the game, but in a correct and respectful
> There was a barrage of posts (On Hugo2 review thread) ridiculing RW and his quote that a 104.25Mhz clock being integers of both 44.1kHz and 48kHz. They used a calculator and called him all sorts. After I put a post. With bold heading, explaining how the ratios work, the thread came to a stop! I put the post on 25 June, and first post after that is today! so far nobody has questioned the _reasoning_, I posted.



You do know the hugo2 review thread was started in July?


----------



## Kentajalli (Jul 30, 2022)

elevensheep said:


> You do know the hugo2 review thread was started in July?


My mistake, I meant 25 July, not June.
Corrected on original post.
Thanx
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...review-portable-dac-hp-amp.35812/post-1260254


----------



## Clive101

Hello All,

Want a cheap upgrade for Dave if you connect to a network server or stream ?
I found an extremely good improvement. 

To save double posting check this out :-

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussi...utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=website#2427118

You may try these as an experiment. You will need two of these :-

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B078RLXT79/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 

And one fibre cable 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B088LWY3GP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Other makes available.

"Just gone down another rabbit hole"


----------



## miketlse

Clive101 said:


> Hello All,
> 
> Want a cheap upgrade for Dave if you connect to a network server or stream ?
> I found an extremely good improvement.
> ...


Have you posted a Return on Experience or similar for your experiments?
With a total cost of approx £70 I can imagine quite a few posters could be interested.


----------



## Clive101

miketlse said:


> Have you posted a Return on Experience or similar for your experiments?
> With a total cost of approx £70 I can imagine quite a few posters could be interested.


You all know me by now I do not do fine detail or A-B it either works or does not, life too short.

I was gobsmacked by the uplift in SQ.

I got a whole new system for £70.00

Read the forum link I posted above when you have time, others say the same.

This is only the beginning and I am late to the party ......

VERY BIG RABBIT HOLE BEWARE if you follow the links. Other makes are available but not cheap 

https://www.adark.co/collections/dela/products/dela-s100-audiophile-network-hubs
https://www.adark.co/collections/pr...cade-x-giesemann-ocxo-black-modernize-edition
https://www.adark.co/collections/pr...clayx-constellation-sfp-module-for-audiophile


----------



## Jomungur (Jul 30, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> Thanks for the kind reply. If everyone from ASR spoke as you do, this and other forums that the ASR crowd visit would welcome them much more and the conversations would proceed in a way that is productive.Unfortuantely, the head in the sand comment above is the typical example. I appreciate the suggestions of exploring other opportunities to learn. I will look into it.
> 
> As to your exploration, I have owned the Dave and had Topping in my system as well. I have heard all the Chinese dacs, living in Asia myself. The type of transparency you discuss hearing is itself a subjective value, further highlighting my original point, which is that measurements do not equate to values and there is no data showing that any given measurement is more enjoyable to people. Even the proof that a given piece of equipment is more accurate is not proof it sounds better to humans. ”the more accurate the better” is a value. Some guys love warm, gooey systems full of tubes, etc. The fact is that I am not a computer. You cannot use a measurement device to yuck my yum.  You could show that a product is engineered poorly or doesnt do what it is purported to do. We should be using measurements to explore and discover, not denigrate, opine and conjecture.
> 
> You are looking for a dac to get out of the way and that is a valid approach indeed. I too have a very nice system, but that is not my current approach. I have a tube dac that is doing more beyond that. I like it so much I have ordered the flagship model blind (this is the first product I bought without hearing). What you are looking to do in your ssystem building is a valid approach and I am sure I could learn from it. For me, I build systems around the source, which is, in a digital rig, the dac (or dac streamer combo). There are many roads to audio nirvana... I am glad you find help at ASR and I am open to the possibility that I could as well, but it seems doubtful. For starters, the folks there do not seem to be having much fun at all…


Yes, agreed.  Please note I am not saying the more "transparent" the better.  I don't like setting my TV to max sharpness.   All I am saying is the values don't mean everything, but they also aren't useless.  In many cases, you can hear the difference between equipment that has different THD values.  But which you prefer is up to you.  

I love the sound of 300B tubes in my amps.  No doubt they won't measure well compared to a solid state amp though according to conventional measurements.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Jomungur said:


> Very good post.  I don't think everyone who uses ASR is cantankerous and dogmatic, although there are lots of people like that in the forums.  My suggestion if that irritates someone is just ignore the forum discussions and read the reviews taking in account reviewer slant.   At a certain point, ASR can become a bit circular because there's no way to determine how you tie objective measurements to subjective impressions.  Everyone has to figure that out on their own.  Some people will dismiss objective measurements completely, others will dismiss subjective impressions entirely.  For many people on ASR, they already believe that an Iphone DAC is not audibly different than a Rossini DAC so there's no point arguing, really, they're starting from a different framework.
> 
> I'm in the middle camp.  For me, subjective impressions are the most important factor, but objective measurements are helpful aids to correct our own biases. To give you some context, I'm the person who submitted the DAVE for review there.  I did this after I tried the Topping 90DSE (on a lark, really) and realized I prefer the latter.  My systems sounds better with the Topping.  I have three; two loudspeakers and one headphones system.   The more high end the system, the better it sounded with the Topping.  I was shocked at first, but it made sense.  The Topping does measure excellent on transparency indicators, like THD and SINAD.  This correlates with my own subjective impressions, the Topping is more transparent than the DAVE.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing, I have the opposite experience, Non-Chord DACs sound lifeless and dígital to me, they usually lack detail to my ears and don't sound natural, I still have an Oppo BDP105 based on Sabre DAC that measures really well, can't listen to it after getting used to Chord.


----------



## Kentajalli (Jul 30, 2022)

Jomungur said:


> . . . I'm the person who submitted the DAVE for review there.


At some point you got some stick for it too, I believe Amir had to come to your rescue, or one of the moderators.



Jomungur said:


> I did this after I tried the Topping 90DSE (on a lark, really) and realized I prefer the latter.  My systems sounds better with the Topping.  I have three; two loudspeakers and one headphones system.   The more high end the system, the better it sounded with the Topping.  I was shocked at first, but it made sense.  The Topping does measure excellent on transparency indicators, like THD and SINAD.  This correlates with my own subjective impressions, the Topping is more transparent than the DAVE.


I believe you! I did try a Topping DX7 pro (next model down from 90DSE) against a Hugo2. I still have the two and use them both.
The Topping is very good, but the notion that all DACs sound the same is BS!
For me, the Topping is smooth to a fault! Meaning it is a little glossed over! The Hugo2 is energetic, wild and raw. Give topping any recording (good or bad) and you get a refined, polite rendition out - give a good one to Hugo2, you get a hair-raising experience, give it a bad one, you struggle to keep listening if it is specially terrible.
I use Topping for background listening or for relaxation - Hugo2 for critical music enjoyment.
But seriously, as Amir himself has said so many times, the measurements, once beyond audibility will not make much of a difference, so I doubt the Topping is more transparent, because on a test or two it has measured a hair better than Dave.


Jomungur said:


> I still think the DAVE sounds very good.  But keep in mind the DAVE was released 7 years ago.  That's a couple of generations in things like computer chips and software; I don't know why it would be shocking if a DAC released in 2022 sounds as good or better at a much lower price.


Frankly, DAC technology has hardly moved in the last 7 years, I think others have informed you of this. But yes, Chord has made a mistake! they should have released a pro or plus version, every couple of years, and sold the same item in a new box, with an alternative op amp in tow! But on ASR, they get a bashing, if they are honest or not.


Jomungur said:


> Lastly, there's a lot of good, unbiased information about sound, measurements and components in the educational sections of ASR.  I've learned a good amount from those.  I wish the forum discussions were more civil and less hostile, but there's more to that site than the forums.


Yes, I agree, it is a shame.


----------



## odarg64 (Jul 30, 2022)

....


----------



## Kentajalli

odarg64 said:


> Customizing a Dave would be akin to customizing a Civic. An overpriced 7-year old Civic.


This argument, about the price of a device, sounds very familiar!
Where have I heard that before . . . .  ?


----------



## Triode User

Jomungur said:


> Yes, agreed. Please note I am not saying the more "transparent" the better. I don't like setting my TV to max sharpness


I think you misunderstand what we mean by transparent in the context of a dac if you are relating it to the sharpness setting on a TV. With a DAC more transparency is always better provided that the dac is not deficient in other areas. The Dave for instance is the most transparent DAC I have heard even compared to say others with better SINAD. I can ony conclude that there are other factors as well as distortion and noise (ie SINAD) which affect transparancy.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Triode User said:


> I think you misunderstand what we mean by transparent in the context of a dac if you are relating it to the sharpness setting on a TV. With a DAC more transparency is always better provided that the dac is not deficient in other areas. The Dave for instance is the most transparent DAC I have heard even compared to say others with better SINAD. I can ony conclude that there are other factors as well as distortion and noise (ie SINAD) which affect transparancy.



That and a lot of other DACs give you the impression of sharpness, but in reality it's artificial, especially with the chopping of transients these cheap DACs do, if you do an impulse response test you get to see how bad they are in the time domain, really poor usually.  A lot of them also have noise floor modulation that comes up in music as the musical signal goes up and down so does the noise and it brightens things up, initially making you believe that it's more transparent until you want to turn it off because of ear fatigue.


----------



## GuiltyRocker (Jul 30, 2022)

Kentajalli said:


> At some point you got some stick for it too, I believe Amir had to come to your rescue, or one of the moderators.
> 
> 
> I believe you! I did try a Topping DX7 pro (next model down from 90DSE) against a Hugo2. I still have the two and use them both.
> ...




Yea, I don't believe for a second that the Topping is more transparent, some don't understand what transparent means in the context of a DAC.


----------



## The Jester

“Transparency” seems to mean different things to different people, my take on it is as little as possible getting in the way of the original sound, be interesting how many here that love the sound of the Dave, and other Chord DAC’s in their respective forums, who regularly attend live unamplified music events, orchestral performances, small Jazz clubs etc, and have an appreciation of what a piano, violin, Sax etc actually sounds like …
With recorded music it’s fine to like “bright and detailed” or “warm and musical” and chose components to taste but for me at least there’s only one “transparent” …


----------



## MvRBE10

I do… compare alot the resonance of live music that i vibe on a live concert or piano play. Recently indeed returning to a simpeler chain that opens up much more the music. I removed the mscaler and did just that. Still have it and last week placed it back to double check after alot of changes in my rig. But still ads fatigue and collaps of musicality. Talked alot about it with alot of people as in why. But seems every rig that becomes better and more musical will be sensitive to this. At least thats my explanation and many more (not on this forum btw). Even using custom rca cables that are tuned and have no shielding these seriously open up the dave. They do add noise when the display of the is on but dissapearse when of. Using xlr will also elimenate this but sounds worse. Also doing alot more tuning on my amp and streamer that has increased the musicality of my rig but thats outside the dave talk here. 

Just a mental change compared to 2 months ago and back than it was not bad also. But got a big reset in what real audio listening is.


----------



## Sampajanna (Jul 30, 2022)

Why was Goldensound, another “measurement maker” who I also enjoy a lot (though I dislike the GoPro to the head style video, but that is a small crictism) kicked out of ASR? As far as I know he just offered different interpretations of the data other than just four different pink panther statues and lots of “ripoff” “sucks” and all that… I cannot imagine him being impolite in any way, as watching him i find him to be intelligent, civil and open-minded—just the type of audiophile a forum could benefit from.

There are lots of different considerations that can go into a dac. Maybe what you want is for it to “get out of the way.” But other considerations apply. For example, in a digital rig, a preamp can be unnecessary, which means we want a dac with a good volume control. This could be why i moved away from the Dave. I dont know the technical details, just that my new dac is a big jump up. When I first switched, I was blown away by the soundstage. Now that I have had the new dac for some months, I can say it is better than Dave in every way. In fact, so much better that I blindly initiated an upgrade to the flagship. The Dave’s weakness for me is soundstage. It does everything between the speakers perfect, but doesn’t extend far enough out of them. BUT, and this is a big “but,” system synergy, room, budget and musical preferences all make a difference. Some people want their system to sound like live acoustic, like the gentlemen above, others listen to electronic music….  In other words, YMMV.

The Dave brought me tremendous joy for years. It is a stunning dac—one I would easily recommend to others.. I would call the joy it brought me very, very worthwhile and a fair price indeed. No party pooper can change that. The comments of ASR people in this and other threads are like someone barging into a fancy Mexican restaurant and shouting at people because the Taco Bell down the road has food made from the same chemicals, all the while waving a white paper measuring bean counts in burritos….


----------



## MvRBE10

Sampajanna said:


> Why was Goldensound, another “measurement maker” who I also enjoy a lot (though I dislike the GoPro to the head style video, but that is a small crictism) kicked out of ASR? As far as I know he just offered different interpretations of the data other than just four different pink panther statues and lots of “ripoff” “sucks” and all that… I cannot imagine him being impolite in any way, as watching him i find him to be intelligent, civil and open-minded—just the type of audiophile a forum could benefit from.
> 
> There are lots of different considerations that can go into a dac. Maybe what you want is for it to “get out of the way.” But other considerations apply. For example, in a digital rig, a preamp can be unnecessary, which means we want a dac with a good volume control. This could be why i moved away from the Dave. I dont know the technical details, just that my new dac is a big jump up. When I first switched, I was blown away by the soundstage. Now that I have had the new dac for some months, I can say it is better than Dave in every way. In fact, so much better that I blindly initiated an upgrade to the flagship. The Dave’s weakness for me is soundstage. It does everything between the speakers perfect, but doesn’t extend far enough out of them. BUT, and this is a big “but,” system synergy, room, budget and musical preferences all make a difference. Some people want their system to sound like live acoustic, like the gentlemen above, others listen to electronic music….  In other words, YMMV.
> 
> The Dave brought me tremendous joy for years. It is a stunning dac—one I would easily recommend to others.. I would call the joy it brought me very, very worthwhile and a fair price indeed. No party pooper can change that. The comments of ASR people in this and other threads are like someone barging into a fancy Mexican restaurant and shouting at people because the Taco Bell down the road has food made from the same chemicals, all the while waving a white paper measuring bean counts in burritos….


And what is your current dac? Sound you had some miles on the dave.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Sampajanna said:


> Why was Goldensound, another “measurement maker” who I also enjoy a lot (though I dislike the GoPro to the head style video, but that is a small crictism) kicked out of ASR? As far as I know he just offered different interpretations of the data other than just four different pink panther statues and lots of “ripoff” “sucks” and all that… I cannot imagine him being impolite in any way, as watching him i find him to be intelligent, civil and open-minded—just the type of audiophile a forum could benefit from.
> 
> There are lots of different considerations that can go into a dac. Maybe what you want is for it to “get out of the way.” But other considerations apply. For example, in a digital rig, a preamp can be unnecessary, which means we want a dac with a good volume control. This could be why i moved away from the Dave. I dont know the technical details, just that my new dac is a big jump up. When I first switched, I was blown away by the soundstage. Now that I have had the new dac for some months, I can say it is better than Dave in every way. In fact, so much better that I blindly initiated an upgrade to the flagship. The Dave’s weakness for me is soundstage. It does everything between the speakers perfect, but doesn’t extend far enough out of them. BUT, and this is a big “but,” system synergy, room, budget and musical preferences all make a difference. Some people want their system to sound like live acoustic, like the gentlemen above, others listen to electronic music….  In other words, YMMV.
> 
> ...


----------



## ZappaMan

Sampajanna said:


> Why was Goldensound, another “measurement maker” who I also enjoy a lot (though I dislike the GoPro to the head style video, but that is a small crictism) kicked out of ASR? As far as I know he just offered different interpretations of the data other than just four different pink panther statues and lots of “ripoff” “sucks” and all that… I cannot imagine him being impolite in any way, as watching him i find him to be intelligent, civil and open-minded—just the type of audiophile a forum could benefit from.
> 
> There are lots of different considerations that can go into a dac. Maybe what you want is for it to “get out of the way.” But other considerations apply. For example, in a digital rig, a preamp can be unnecessary, which means we want a dac with a good volume control. This could be why i moved away from the Dave. I dont know the technical details, just that my new dac is a big jump up. When I first switched, I was blown away by the soundstage. Now that I have had the new dac for some months, I can say it is better than Dave in every way. In fact, so much better that I blindly initiated an upgrade to the flagship. The Dave’s weakness for me is soundstage. It does everything between the speakers perfect, but doesn’t extend far enough out of them. BUT, and this is a big “but,” system synergy, room, budget and musical preferences all make a difference. Some people want their system to sound like live acoustic, like the gentlemen above, others listen to electronic music….  In other words, YMMV.
> 
> The Dave brought me tremendous joy for years. It is a stunning dac—one I would easily recommend to others.. I would call the joy it brought me very, very worthwhile and a fair price indeed. No party pooper can change that. The comments of ASR people in this and other threads are like someone barging into a fancy Mexican restaurant and shouting at people because the Taco Bell down the road has food made from the same chemicals, all the while waving a white paper measuring bean counts in burritos….


What is your new and previous dacs plz?


----------



## Ards

Triode User said:


> If we can all resist playing their game and not reply to their posts they will soon get bored and go elsewhere where it is more fun and where they can stir up storms of indignation.


Hit the ignore button on their profile.   Pretty easy to spot a bad faith actor, and nothing to be gained from engaging them.


----------



## Triode User (Jul 31, 2022)

ZappaMan said:


> What is your new and previous dacs plz?


I have a feeling it might be a Lampizator possibly the Pacific priced between 22k and 29k euros depending on spec plus carriage and local taxes. The top one is the Horizon at 44k euros plus tax so in the UK that would be around £44k UKP including tax.


----------



## ZappaMan

Triode User said:


> I have a feeling it might be a Lampizator possibly the Pacific priced between 22k and 29k euros depending on spec plus carriage and local taxes. The top one is the Horizon at 44k euros plus tax so in the UK that would be around £44k UKP including tax.


Ok, I’ve already topped out my expectation for a hifi, I’ll stick with Dave !


----------



## Currawong

Jomungur said:


> I'm in the middle camp. For me, subjective impressions are the most important factor, but objective measurements are helpful aids to correct our own biases. To give you some context, I'm the person who submitted the DAVE for review there. I did this after I tried the Topping 90DSE (on a lark, really) and realized I prefer the latter. My systems sounds better with the Topping. I have three; two loudspeakers and one headphones system. The more high end the system, the better it sounded with the Topping. I was shocked at first, but it made sense. The Topping does measure excellent on transparency indicators, like THD and SINAD. This correlates with my own subjective impressions, the Topping is more transparent than the DAVE.


What do you mean by “better”? With the DAVE and Mscaler, direct to headphones, I could hear the sound of individual notes reflecting off adjacent objects — that’s a degree of resolution I’ve never encountred before. I have the D90 here — it doesn’t come within miles of any of that. It’s also not physically possible for it to do so. 
THD+N is only one of many possible measurements possible of audio hardware. Quite a few of these low THD DACs have up to 0.05% IMD — way higher than their THD. Maybe it’s that more “exciting” (what I’d call “harsh”) sound of that kind of distortion people like. Harmonic distortion is neither harmful to listening enjoyment (it’s harmonic, after all) and it’s trivially easy to design a product with low THD. It’s not trivial to design a DAC that is actually highly resolving. Ironically that is why some people like R2R DACs, because of the often higher harmonics present, it can sound like there is more resolution, because you hear more, even if that more is harmonics. Ditto tube amps.


Jomungur said:


> It goes to what your want out of a DAC. If you have a lot of high end components like speakers and amps, you probably want your DAC to "get out of the way" as much as possible. That is, you want something extremely clean and neutral. The Topping does this better than the DAVE in my subjective opinion.


In the past, I thought that a “better” DAC would have a more “black” background to it — that is, more darkness between the notes. But the DAVE made me realise that this “blackness” is the inability of the DAC to resolve the finest details in music. Real sound does not have invidual points in space with black in between (unless you’re in an anechoic chamber). Live music has a lot more going on than you hear from recorded music. The DAVE was the first DAC where I heard something akin to what music actually sounds like.

I sometimes plug the D90 in to see how it sounds now, and the last time the music from it sounded dead.  But if you feel you get a better experience with your system from the D90SE, then great! 



Jomungur said:


> I still think the DAVE sounds very good. But keep in mind the DAVE was released 7 years ago. That's a couple of generations in things like computer chips and software; I don't know why it would be shocking if a DAC released in 2022 sounds as good or better at a much lower price.


I think that this is really just trying to find a reason to justify an idea, but it’s not related to the reality. 
If Xilinx made a chip that had the same computing power as both FPGAs in the DAVE, yet used only as much power as the one in the Mojo (or Hugo 2) then it would be possible to do as you say. But, it’s not going to happen with a chip DAC. Rob believes, as I understand it, that the most improvements from his designs are to be had in the MScaler technology.


----------



## mark44

Have you tried out Chord Dave with the Headamp GSX MK2? Using Dave alone, what are the differences?


----------



## Triode User

Currawong said:


> What do you mean by “better”? With the DAVE and Mscaler, direct to headphones, I could hear the sound of individual notes reflecting off adjacent objects — that’s a degree of resolution I’ve never encountred before. I have the D90 here — it doesn’t come within miles of any of that. It’s also not physically possible for it to do so.
> THD+N is only one of many possible measurements possible of audio hardware. Quite a few of these low THD DACs have up to 0.05% IMD — way higher than their THD. Maybe it’s that more “exciting” (what I’d call “harsh”) sound of that kind of distortion people like. Harmonic distortion is neither harmful to listening enjoyment (it’s harmonic, after all) and it’s trivially easy to design a product with low THD. It’s not trivial to design a DAC that is actually highly resolving. Ironically that is why some people like R2R DACs, because of the often higher harmonics present, it can sound like there is more resolution, because you hear more, even if that more is harmonics. Ditto tube amps.
> 
> In the past, I thought that a “better” DAC would have a more “black” background to it — that is, more darkness between the notes. But the DAVE made me realise that this “blackness” is the inability of the DAC to resolve the finest details in music. Real sound does not have invidual points in space with black in between (unless you’re in an anechoic chamber). Live music has a lot more going on than you hear from recorded music. The DAVE was the first DAC where I heard something akin to what music actually sounds like.
> ...


Thanks for putting into words so much of what I hear with the Dave compared to other Dacs. I think your post also highlights the issue of reading other peoples reports of something being ‘better’ than the Dave. I have heard many of these other supposedly better DACs and to my ears they are simply not as transparent as the Dave. Transparent for me being a more resolving sound but by that I mean fine layers of subtle detail as opposed to artefact induced course detail. Also I hear subtle detail of the leading edge of notes, subtle detail of the material used in say a percussion instrument, subtle detail that does not degenerate into smearing during orchestral crescendos, subtle depth detail of the placing of instruments and an overall sound that does not collapse when the going gets tough etc etc.

I spent a couple of decades having a love affair with second harmonic triode generated distortion but all of that was pre Dave. That love affair stopped 7 years ago when Dave came into my life.


----------



## theveterans

Currawong said:


> What do you mean by “better”? With the DAVE and Mscaler, direct to headphones, I could hear the sound of individual notes reflecting off adjacent objects — that’s a degree of resolution I’ve never encountred before. I have the D90 here — it doesn’t come within miles of any of that. It’s also not physically possible for it to do so.
> THD+N is only one of many possible measurements possible of audio hardware. Quite a few of these low THD DACs have up to 0.05% IMD — way higher than their THD. Maybe it’s that more “exciting” (what I’d call “harsh”) sound of that kind of distortion people like. Harmonic distortion is neither harmful to listening enjoyment (it’s harmonic, after all) and it’s trivially easy to design a product with low THD. It’s not trivial to design a DAC that is actually highly resolving. Ironically that is why some people like R2R DACs, because of the often higher harmonics present, it can sound like there is more resolution, because you hear more, even if that more is harmonics. Ditto tube amps.
> 
> In the past, I thought that a “better” DAC would have a more “black” background to it — that is, more darkness between the notes. But the DAVE made me realise that this “blackness” is the inability of the DAC to resolve the finest details in music. Real sound does not have invidual points in space with black in between (unless you’re in an anechoic chamber). Live music has a lot more going on than you hear from recorded music. The DAVE was the first DAC where I heard something akin to what music actually sounds like.
> ...



To me what 100% separates a very good sounding DAC (be it R2R or DS discrete or not) is the ability to portray low-level information, and the kicker is to portray those low level information in a way that it fool you that you're there at the venue without you noticing its own distinct signature. Many of this ultra-low vanishing THD+N actually removes this low-level information, and now they sound like low quality fake electronics coming out of black hole space rather than real-life instruments. Really dislike gears that acts like a black hole (black backgroud that sucks the life out of instruments). Hugo 2 has the low level information stuff on spades, but DAVE portrays them in a way that it fools you that you're actually there at the venue and unamplified singers are right there singing faithfully in front of you devoid of that black hole fake electronic vibes


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Triode User said:


> Thanks for putting into words so much of what I hear with the Dave compared to other Dacs. I think your post also highlights the issue of reading other peoples reports of something being ‘better’ than the Dave. I have heard many of these other supposedly better DACs and to my ears they are simply not as transparent as the Dave. Transparent for me being a more resolving sound but by that I mean fine layers of subtle detail as opposed to artefact induced course detail. Also I hear subtle detail of the leading edge of notes, subtle detail of the material used in say a percussion instrument, subtle detail that does not degenerate into smearing during orchestral crescendos, subtle depth detail of the placing of instruments and an overall sound that does not collapse when the going gets tough etc etc.
> 
> I spent a couple of decades having a love affair with second harmonic triode generated distortion but all of that was pre Dave. That love affair stopped 7 years ago when Dave came into my life.



Excellent, as I have stated before one time I stopped by my dealer and saw a Chord DAC sitting there, I had no idea what it was.  I asked him to plug it in cause it looked funny to me, I had listened to very expensive DACs at that dealer, the Chord completely walked all over them at a fraction of the price, now I can't listen to off the shelf DACs, I can't listen to my Oppo BDP105, it sounds harsh and unnatural to me now, the music doesn't flow well and it's just not there, also causes me ear fatigue.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jul 31, 2022)

theveterans said:


> To me what 100% separates a very good sounding DAC (be it R2R or DS discrete or not) is the ability to portray low-level information, and the kicker is to portray those low level information in a way that it fool you that you're there at the venue without you noticing its own distinct signature. Many of this ultra-low vanishing THD+N actually removes this low-level information, and now they sound like low quality fake electronics coming out of black hole space rather than real-life instruments. Really dislike gears that acts like a black hole (black backgroud that sucks the life out of instruments). Hugo 2 has the low level information stuff on spades, but DAVE portrays them in a way that it fools you that you're actually there at the venue and unamplified singers are right there singing faithfully in front of you devoid of that black hole fake electronic vibes


I hear what you say. I would like to add some thoughts.

I think a system has to be able to portray absolute blackness if it is being fed a signal that represents the sort of absolute silence that you find in an anechoic chamber.

This is the bedrock condition for a good system.

Obviously, as you observe, this cannot be achieved by simply failing to reproduce these low level signal details - what you describe as a black hole sucking the life out of the music.

To make a sound stage realistic requires the reproduction of extremely subtle cues in the recording. These cues allow, as you very aptly put it, your brain to be fooled into thinking it is listening to a real sound stage as if you were at a live concert.

This is why the reduction of first crude noise, then music-correlated noise (noise floor modulation etc) is so crucial to realistic and relaxing reproduction.

I will stick my neck out here and venture what may not be an entirely new idea of noise that is *coherent* between the left and right channels.

In the case of crude random incoherent noise, noise would be associated with the location of the speakers and so can easily be ignored by the listener. 

Random noise that is coherent between left and right would, on the other hand, be distributed throughout the sound stage rather like the "speckle" that is observed throughout an image illuminated by coherent (laser) light.

Optical speckle is extremely irritating as it is not localised in 3D space and this is very unnatural for the person viewing.

I suspect the acoustic equivalent would engender the equivalent stress in a listener with a consequent deleterious effect on comfort.

I now wonder if top systems which historically have *fully* independent chains for left and right are not only addressing issues of crosstalk but are also addressing this issue of coherent noise.

Perhaps this is why we have some people operating entirely physically separate DACs for left and right as well as monobloc amps etc?

Just the random thoughts of a mad Physicist... 😅


----------



## miketlse

GuiltyRocker said:


> Excellent, as I have stated before one time I stopped by my dealer and saw a Chord DAC sitting there, I had no idea what it was.  I asked him to plug it in cause it looked funny to me, I had listened to very expensive DACs at that dealer, the Chord completely walked all over them at a fraction of the price, now I can't listen to off the shelf DACs, I can't listen to my Oppo BDP105, it sounds harsh and unnatural to me now, the music doesn't flow well and it's just not there, also causes me ear fatigue.


In some respects your experience mirrors the experience of many posters on the early Mojo thread. They visited dealers intending to buy a cheaper dac, but once they demoed the Mojo they left the shop with a Mojo.


----------



## miketlse

SteveHulk said:


> I hear what you say. I would like to add some thoughts.
> 
> I think a system has to be able to portray absolute blackness if it is being fed a signal that represents the sort of absolute silence that you find in an anechoic chamber.
> 
> ...


Less of the mad physicist. You have raised a hypothesis, so which head-fiers are willing to disprove it.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Sampajanna said:


> Why was Goldensound, another “measurement maker” who I also enjoy a lot (though I dislike the GoPro to the head style video, but that is a small crictism) kicked out of ASR? As far as I know he just offered different interpretations of the data other than just four different pink panther statues and lots of “ripoff” “sucks” and all that… I cannot imagine him being impolite in any way, as watching him i find him to be intelligent, civil and open-minded—just the type of audiophile a forum could benefit from.
> 
> There are lots of different considerations that can go into a dac. Maybe what you want is for it to “get out of the way.” But other considerations apply. For example, in a digital rig, a preamp can be unnecessary, which means we want a dac with a good volume control. This could be why i moved away from the Dave. I dont know the technical details, just that my new dac is a big jump up. When I first switched, I was blown away by the soundstage. Now that I have had the new dac for some months, I can say it is better than Dave in every way. In fact, so much better that I blindly initiated an upgrade to the flagship. The Dave’s weakness for me is soundstage. It does everything between the speakers perfect, but doesn’t extend far enough out of them. BUT, and this is a big “but,” system synergy, room, budget and musical preferences all make a difference. Some people want their system to sound like live acoustic, like the gentlemen above, others listen to electronic music….  In other words, YMMV.
> 
> The Dave brought me tremendous joy for years. It is a stunning dac—one I would easily recommend to others.. I would call the joy it brought me very, very worthwhile and a fair price indeed. No party pooper can change that. The comments of ASR people in this and other threads are like someone barging into a fancy Mexican restaurant and shouting at people because the Taco Bell down the road has food made from the same chemicals, all the while waving a white paper measuring bean counts in burritos….



It was something to do with him agreeing to do a blind test he said he could pass for so a certain amount of money, it never went through in the end.


----------



## Reactcore

Currawong said:


> With the DAVE and Mscaler, direct to headphones, I could hear the sound of individual notes reflecting off adjacent objects — that’s a degree of resolution I’ve never encountred before.



Exactly what i experienced too. At first with Mscaler & Qutest combo it was there if i concentrated on it. But with Dave im right in the middle of it.. cant be ignored. With HP's i hear the different materials instruments are made of..

But what striked me first was how much easier it is to understand the words artists are singing cause of the small signal accuracy

I tried hard hearing this with the AKM chip in my Questyle CMA400 DAC which had lots of praise for its sound quality .. even knowing what to listen for its just not rendered.. i do like this dac for EDM though and it also has a quite good DSD decoder  .. but for mic recorded stuff its just edgy and nowhere near what Dave does.

Btw did you aquire a Dave by now?


----------



## SteveHulk

Reactcore said:


> Exactly what i experienced too. At first with Mscaler & Qutest combo it was there if i concentrated on it. But with Dave im right in the middle of it.. cant be ignored. With HP's i hear the different materials instruments are made of..
> 
> But what striked me first was how much easier it is to understand the words artists are singing cause of the small signal accuracy


I will share with you a stunning experience that I had when still a postgraduate student.

In college I sometimes assisted a fully blind student with things such as reading hand-written letters etc.

One evening, in his room, we were listening to an outside broadcast on the radio with what (to me) sounded like a guy just talking to microphone. Nothing else.

My friend seemed to be paying close attention to the sound and, on the spur of the moment, I asked him what he could hear.

He described the surroundings of the person speaking in detail. He also mentioned a box van that was parked nearby. Shortly after that, the presenter mentioned the van which then started its engine and drove off. That was the first time I had any clue that anything was there.

So you might think yeah yeah yeah so what he must have had a good sound system. After all, wouldn't you expect a blind person to have a good system?

What he had was this: a very basic radio receiver. The two channels left and right went out to separate open-reel tape recorders which each had a small built-in amp and mono speaker. One was a Gründig and the other a Revox.

THEY WEREN'T EVEN THE SAME.

And here we are dismissing these systems we discuss here on the basis that they "don't image" or they sound "flat" with no layering etc 🤔

Our sight has doomed us to miss so much in hearing.


----------



## Reactcore

SteveHulk said:


> I will share with you a stunning experience that I had when still a postgraduate student.
> 
> In college I sometimes assisted a fully blind student with things such as reading hand-written letters etc.
> 
> ...



If theres people that can listen.. its blind persons.. cause they need to create the world around them we can see.. 

Lol i played with the idea once to blindfold myself for a few days to see if my hearing gets improved.. pushing my brain to filter the small nuances of my surrounding.

Even Rob could work with such person doing listening tests..


----------



## GuiltyRocker

SteveHulk said:


> I will share with you a stunning experience that I had when still a postgraduate student.
> 
> In college I sometimes assisted a fully blind student with things such as reading hand-written letters etc.
> 
> ...



Very interesting, thanks for sharing.


----------



## Sampajanna (Jul 31, 2022)

Triode User said:


> I have a feeling it might be a Lampizator possibly the Pacific priced between 22k and 29k euros depending on spec plus carriage and local taxes. The top one is the Horizon at 44k euros plus tax so in the UK that would be around £44k UKP including tax.


Yes, Pacific with a Horizon on the way  I got very lucky. I traded my Dave rig even for a used Pacific. Then, Lampi offered 100% MSRP trade in for Horizon, which is incredible. So I jumped on that once I had lived with the Pac for some time and gotten a feel for how good it is. It is a big expense for me and the first gear I’ve bought blind. We‘ll see if it was smart.



Currawong said:


> I was going to buy one from someone... but i hesitated, and shouldn't have. It's a huge purchase for me, so i'm hesitating. It doesn't help that car maintenance, a dead aircon, and other related expenses have come up.
> 
> A friend of mine, expert in a completely unrelated topic, often has people spouting simplified nonsense at him. He simply uses their superficial arguments as a springboard to educate others with detailed posts that get to the heart of the matter brought up. He finds he gets new insights doing so repeatedly. People have stopped arguing with him now, because he has become too good at what he does.


I love your videos. Just sayin…


----------



## Triode User (Aug 1, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> I now wonder if top systems which historically have *fully* independent chains for left and right are not only addressing issues of crosstalk but are also addressing this issue of coherent noise.
> 
> Perhaps this is why we have some people operating entirely physically separate DACs for left and right as well as monobloc amps etc?
> 
> Just the random thoughts of a mad Physicist... 😅


I have always found the provision of completely separate power supplies and circuits in a dual mono configuration to have a very compelling sound quality. I first became interested in this with the Audio Innovations Second Audio 2A3 monoblock power amplifiers in the late 1980’s. With those I also discovered the advantage of separating the heater supplies from the HV supply ie separate transformers for each and that progressed to using Border Patrol valve regulated HV supplies with huge chokes for the HV rails. Happy days!


----------



## Reactcore (Aug 1, 2022)

Triode User said:


> I have always found the provision of completely separate power supplies and circuits in a dual mono configuration to have a very compelling sound quality.



If i had 2 mojo's i would try to hook them up real close to my mono amps each using one the opposite channel.. with both a connected toslink coming together to a optic splitter after my source.

Better channel seperation cant be done.. and no ground loops.
Would be a interesting litte test


----------



## alxw0w

Sampajanna said:


> Yes, Pacific with a Horizon on the way


Wow that went fast 

I asked you couple pages back how is your time with Pacific, but as I see I was late.
Good for you, when you receive Horizon try to write some of the thoughts vs Pacific/Dave.


----------



## joe

*Mod Note: *Guys, I removed a few posts. Let's stay civil and on-topic. Thanks.


----------



## Sampajanna (Aug 1, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> Wow that went fast
> 
> I asked you couple pages back how is your time with Pacific, but as I see I was late.
> Good for you, when you receive Horizon try to write some of the thoughts vs Pacific/Dave.


Sorry, I missed that. The pacific is brilliant. Really beautiful. I have forgotten all about gear thee last couple months; just music. Complete immersion and so much emotion. Huge, super 3-d soundstage. Tons of detail, but no harshness. My speakers vanish in a way they have not with any gear I have tried.

I jumped at the Horizon because Lampi was offering 100% MSRP trade in, which is pretty amazing. And the time limit for that was ending. Plus I could never afford it without that trade ….. We will see if that was a good choice or not. But if it really is better than this Pac, then wowza!

I think Nick mentioned the prices to make the point that one has to jump way up to find better than Dave. I would agree. I got lucky to swap my Dave rig for the Pac, but that is because the Pac was cheap and I had quite the rig (Dave + HMS + 2X SJ PSU). I found the MSB Ref better than Dave in my rig as well, but that is also Uber expensive.

P.S> I still have TT2 + HMS in my office B rig
PPS Happy Birthday to the man. May he sing on in Heaven.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Sampajanna said:


> Sorry, I missed that. The pacific is brilliant. Really beautiful. I have forgotten all about gear thee last couple months; just music. Complete immersion and so much emotion. Huge, super 3-d soundstage. Tons of detail, but no harshness. My speakers vanish in a way they have not with any gear I have tried.
> 
> I jumped at the Horizon because Lampi was offering 100% MSRP trade in, which is pretty amazing. And the time limit for that was ending. Plus I could never afford it without that trade ….. We will see if that was a good choice or not. But if it really is better than this Pac, then wowza!
> 
> ...



I listened to the MSB Reference DAC, I was blown away, truly amazing DAC.


----------



## Icenine2

I would LOVE to hear the MSB. Plus the MSB headphone amp too.


----------



## muski

Clive101 said:


> Hello All,
> 
> Want a cheap upgrade for Dave if you connect to a network server or stream ?
> I found an extremely good improvement.
> ...


I agree that fiber networking is a great rabbit hole. A great lift in SQ and lots of different experiments that can be run in terms of FMCS, SFPs and fiber cables.  I started down this path with the wonderful Sonore opticalRendu, perhaps an underrated streamer?


----------



## muski (Aug 2, 2022)

Currawong said:


> With the DAVE and Mscaler, direct to headphones, I could hear the sound of individual notes reflecting off adjacent objects — that’s a degree of resolution I’ve never encountred before.


Well said! I‘ve experienced the same.

One thing that shocks me about M Scaler + DAVE is how it can reveal a staggering level of information contained from a well-recorded and well-mastered 44.1/16 redbook audio file. There’s so much musical information, it just takes a very special system to get much of it to our ears.

It makes me wonder if in the digital music recording chain analog-to-digital to conversion is an easier problem to solve than digital-to-analog conversion? (Though I think Rob is working on some ideas for ADC improvements)


----------



## Reactcore

muski said:


> Well said! I‘ve experienced the same.
> 
> One thing that shocks me about M Scaler + DAVE is how it can reveal a staggering level of information contained from a well-recorded and well-mastered 44.1/16 redbook audio file. There’s so much musical information, it just takes a very special system to get much of it to our ears.
> 
> It makes me wonder if in the digital music recording chain analog-to-digital to conversion is an easier problem to solve than digital-to-analog conversion? (Though I think Rob is working on some ideas for ADC improvements)


I noticed you have a opto dx in your chain.. Can you discribe the exact changes you hear compared to using coax (maybe even Waves)?

Are you running them from batteries?

Im figuring a circuit making my own optic dual data link..


----------



## Ards

muski said:


> Sonore opticalRendu, perhaps an underrated streamer?


I think so.  I also use the OpticalRendu, after a long journey through many different endpoints (Innuos, dCS, Bel Canto, Auralic).  During that journey I discovered the necessity of fibre ethernet in my system, making the OpticalRendu an ideal candidate as it's one of the few endpoints with SFP support.  That it offers Squeezelite for Roon is a bonus.  Powering mine with a Farad3 for a further boost.


----------



## Slim1970

Reactcore said:


> I noticed you have a opto dx in your chain.. Can you discribe the exact changes you hear compared to using coax (maybe even Waves)?
> 
> Are you running them from batteries?
> 
> Im figuring a circuit making my own optic dual data link..


I have the Opto DX in my chain for a couple of years now. Here's a review that I read before making the move. It should give a good sense of what to expect.

https://audiobacon.net/2020/02/22/audiowise-opto-dx-the-rf-noise-killer/


----------



## LucyWu

I have been curious about the Opto-DX for a while. Is there a view on whether it's really only beneficial/good value in an Mscaler scenario? I have the SRC.DX from my computer transport feeding the DX goodness to Dave. RF is often an issue you don't know you have until you remove it!


----------



## Triode User

Clive101 said:


> Hello All,
> 
> Want a cheap upgrade for Dave if you connect to a network server or stream ?
> I found an extremely good improvement.
> ...


Hi Clive, I ordered those exact items from Amazon UK and they came the next day. In the meantime I recalled that the Cisco switch I have in my sitting room also has the same optical connections which I use to separate the whole of my hifi network from the other half of the house comprising the 4G router, various family computers and a particularly noise generating laser printer. 

Normally the sitting room Cisco switch is connected to my PhoenixNET and which is then directly connected to my streamer but just to see what the new units can do I took out the PhoenixNET and connected one of the newly bought fiber media convertors to the Cisco switch via optical (using the supplied smps for power). My reaction is that it was pretty good but not as good as the PhoenixNET. The treble was bit ’splashy’ compared to when I put the PhoenixNET back in. 

Then I put the little fiber media convertor back but this time I powered it with a Sean Jacobs DC4 (not the ARC6, just the ‘normal’ DC4 version). Now the sound was pretty close to the PhoenixNET. Perhaps even close enough to not tell them apart. The only trouble is that a single 5V rail DC4 itself costs more than the PhoenixNET.

So my evaluation is that the optical isolation itself is perfect in its ability to isolate noise but as per my previous experiences with dual bnc optical its success is more or less totally dependant on having very good power supplies otherwise the performance can be somewhat let down and not live up to full potential. However I have a second system and I think I will use the little optical convertors for that but I will try and find a more economical way of powering then rather than using a DC4!
​


----------



## Clive101

Triode User said:


> Hi Clive, I ordered those exact items from Amazon UK and they came the next day. In the meantime I recalled that the Cisco switch I have in my sitting room also has the same optical connections which I use to separate the whole of my hifi network from the other half of the house comprising the 4G router, various family computers and a particularly noise generating laser printer.
> 
> Normally the sitting room Cisco switch is connected to my PhoenixNET and which is then directly connected to my streamer but just to see what the new units can do I took out the PhoenixNET and connected one of the newly bought fiber media convertors to the Cisco switch via optical (using the supplied smps for power). My reaction is that it was pretty good but not as good as the PhoenixNET. The treble was bit ’splashy’ compared to when I put the PhoenixNET back in.
> 
> ...


Hi Nick,

So your Phoenix was isolated by the fiber on the Cisco. That is Fiber to Cisco, Cisco to Phoenix by ethernet, then Phoenix ethernet to steamer.

Which means if I am correct the Phoenix wizardry with the included Sean Jacobs power supplies internally is same ball park as the generic FMC with a DC4 ?

I am about to purchase a switch that has been upgraded with a new clock and other parts.

Dela
https://www.adark.co/collections/de...udiophile-network-hubs?variant=39614852431990 or

AFTERDARK. PROJECT CLAY
https://www.adark.co/collections/pr...lack-modernize-edition?variant=39397872271478

Both need an 12 volt power supply the second also needs mains input. 

Any help or advice as I am using this to help isolate the Dave downstream.


----------



## Reactcore

Slim1970 said:


> I have the Opto DX in my chain for a couple of years now. Here's a review that I read before making the move. It should give a good sense of what to expect.
> 
> https://audiobacon.net/2020/02/22/audiowise-opto-dx-the-rf-noise-killer/


Do you also notice that 'less organic' only trade off he talks about?

Can also be due to his coax and batterypack choice.. a krisdonia uses switching inside


----------



## Slim1970

Not at all. I infuse some warmth back into my system with my Snake River Audio Boomslang BNC cables. I also use PowerAdd battery packs and Ghent DC cables as well.


----------



## Triode User

Clive101 said:


> Hi Nick,
> 
> So your Phoenix was isolated by the fiber on the Cisco. That is Fiber to Cisco, Cisco to Phoenix by ethernet, then Phoenix ethernet to steamer.
> 
> ...


Hi Clive, yes you are correct - ie, ‘Phoenix was isolated by the fiber on the Cisco. That is Fiber to Cisco, Cisco to Phoenix by ethernet, then Phoenix ethernet to steamer.’

The PhoenixNET does not have a DC4 supply in it. It looks to my eyes like somewhere between a DC3 and a DC4.

So in very broad terms the fancy DC4 power supply plus generic FMC (total ~ £4,400 inc VAT) after a couple of hours listening was very approximately in the same ball park to the PhoenixNET (£2,600 inc VAT) with a lesser SJ power supply in it but with fancy circuitry. So that sort of makes the PhoenixNET look like good value even though very expensive for a switch! 

Looking at what Innuos say about the NET on their web site they seem to mention noise reducing measures a lot more times than they mention the clock in it but just exactly what one can read into that I do not know. 

Anway, I think what I might do for my second system is to build a DIY DC4 to use with the generic FMC that you found. Looking on Sean Jacobs website and his prices for DIY construction parts he sells DC4 regulators for £700 and DC4 rectifier/caps for £350 so one would need to add a transformer and a case. It is still a lot of money but the DC4 + FMC did good things through my Dave and Mscaler. But I have a money saving wheeze to bring the price down because I already have a second hand DC4 rectifier/cap board from an earlier bit of DIY experimenting as well as a second hand transformer and a previously used case. So I get away with just over £700 total outlay to recreate a DC4 powered generic FMC.

That was a good heads up tip you posted!!


----------



## muski (Aug 2, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> I noticed you have a opto dx in your chain.. Can you discribe the exact changes you hear compared to using coax (maybe even Waves)?
> 
> Are you running them from batteries?
> 
> Im figuring a circuit making my own optic dual data link..


To my ears the Opto-DX removed the harshness that I was getting with the stock BNC cables. More relaxed treble, stronger mid-bass, without losing any resolution—the soundstage information and transients/attacks/decay information that the M Scaler can bring out from good redbook recordings are all there. (The word "holographic" used in the Audiobacon review is spot on).

I use a battery on the R side and an LPS on the T side. Sometimes I experiment by adding an Uptone Audio Ultracap LPS-1.2 between the battery and the Opto-DX T side. It's a small difference, but I think I can hear the the "speed" of the Ultracap improving detail.

I haven't auditioned the popular Wave cables because my listening setup needed more distance between the M Scaler and DAVE (I use a 3m fiber cable with the Opto-DX).


----------



## alxw0w

My 5cents according optodx and wave storms.

I couldn't really tell the difference between them. You can find my posts comparing them somewhere here in the topic.

Alas it was hard to do fast a/b test and also my power for optodx was not fully optimized.
Bottom line you cannot go wrong with both approaches, still I believe with ultra care approach to the power side of optodx you can get better performance as it's at least in theory perfect optical isolation.

Maybe in the future I'll try combining optodx and wave storm. For now I chosen simpler route with waves.


----------



## AndrewOld

muski said:


> To my ears the Opto-DX took much of the harshness that I was getting with the stock BNC cables


Have I understood you correctly? You found the standard M Scalar sounded harsh, and after spending a substantial amount of money trying to fix that, there was still some harshness? That is an awful lot of money to spend to end up with a harsh sound! Might there not be an issue somewhere else in your system?


----------



## Reactcore

muski said:


> To my ears the Opto-DX took much of the harshness that I was getting with the stock BNC cables. More relaxed treble, stronger mid-bass, without losing any resolution—the soundstage information and transients/attacks/decay information that the M Scaler can bring out from good redbook recordings are all there. (The word "holographic" used in the Audiobacon review is spot on).
> 
> I use a battery on the R side and an LPS on the T side. Sometimes I experiment by adding an Uptone Audio Ultracap LPS-1.2 between the battery and the Opto-DX T side. It's a small difference, but I think I can hear the the "speed" of the Ultracap improving detail.
> 
> I haven't auditioned the popular Wave cables because I wanted more distance between the M Scaler and DAVE (I use a 3m fiber cable with the Opto-DX).


I hear the effect of better fluent treble and better definition already with just toslink in to HMS and out to Dave too.. with only 250k taps ofc. And nothing else connected to both units.

Is that cells without electronics in it?
I find it strange opto dx has 12v in and not 5v ttl ..seems like theres voltage conversion inside..

I cant find a picture of one inside..


----------



## muski

A couple of observations from the fiber networking rabbit hole:

1) I had an interesting exchange with Barrows at Sonore about how to best make the conversion from ethernet to optical. In my case I had an ASUS RT-AX89X router that has SFP slot, and also an SGC Transporter i9 optical that has an optical network card. Barrows suggested that both a router and a PC are "noisy" places to do conversion and suggested I try an inexpensive FMC (Fiber Media Converter) like this $20 one from Amazon powered by a decent LPS (in my case a rail on my HDPLEX LPS).  He was absolutely spot on—a big improvement. But power really matters—the TP-Link SMPS sounded awful.

2) Another advantage of a separate FMC is it can plug into the PhoenixNET so it gets a cleaner/better-timed signal. Again a nice (but smaller improvement).

3) Sonore will soon be releasing a new version of its opticalModule Deluxe, a low-noise FMC. Can’t wait to hear it. Details here


----------



## muski (Aug 2, 2022)

AndrewOld said:


> Have I understood you correctly? You found the standard M Scalar sounded harsh, and after spending a substantial amount of money trying to fix that, there was still some harshness? That is an awful lot of money to spend to end up with a harsh sound! Might there not be an issue somewhere else in your system?


Thanks for catching my sloppy writing—I corrected my post!

muski


----------



## Triode User

muski said:


> A couple of observations from the fiber networking rabbit hole:
> 
> 1) I had an interesting exchange with Barrows at Sonore about how to best make the conversion from ethernet to optical. In my case I had an ASUS RT-AX89X router that has SFP slot, and also an SGC Transporter i9 optical that has an optical network card. Barrows suggested that both a router and a PC are "noisy" places to do conversion and suggested I try an inexpensive FMC (Fiber Media Converter) like this $20 one from Amazon powered by a decent LPS (in my case a rail on my HDPLEX LPS).  He was absolutely spot on—a big improvement. But power really matters—the TP-Link SMPS sounded awful.
> 
> ...


1) you seem to report very much in line with my experience. The power supply was crucial in my comparison. 
2) also agreed but I found the improvement to the PhoenixNET by doing this to be slight (sometimes slight is still worth having).


----------



## AndrewOld

muski said:


> Thanks for catching my sloppy writing—I corrected my post!
> 
> muski


Nonetheless, it is the case that you still found the standard M Scaler harsh?


----------



## SteveHulk (Aug 4, 2022)

Well...

I upgraded the front end of the Cave system.

Out with the Windows tablet and in with the Innuos Zen Mini III and its matching lps.

It is just amazing that this system just keeps getting better. The sq headroom on the m scalar + DAVE just keeps coming. And the headphone amp and the LCD4 keep on responding.

I won't rave on about blacker than the blackest black (think soap adverts) but it was all there. Tiny exquisite details. 

I was wondering about the LCD4 in particular, but they clearly have plenty of mileage left so I'll hold off on replacing them for a while. 

I still might get the RAAL Requisite in just for the hell of it though! Those blew me away at Canjam 🤯 The LCD4 are very classy but they are total chubbers. The RAAL felt like there was nothing on my head. Beautifully made and that open baffle design means your ears will never sweat again.

Those of you who are looking for a serious sq uplift and are still using laptops, tablets etc as your sound source then I would say ditching them will give you a great value upgrade.


----------



## Kirklandia

SteveHulk said:


> Well...
> 
> I upgraded the front end of the Cave system.
> 
> ...


I found that the next large step up was the PhoenixNet (purchased used). Such improvement!


----------



## Hiker816

SteveHulk said:


> I still might get the RAAL Requisite in just for the hell if it though!


Do it!  I couldn't be happier with my RAALs.  They're supremely comfortable hour after hour.


----------



## GryphonGuy (Aug 3, 2022)

Whilst the PhoenixNet appears to be an elegant 1-box solution, I chose a different route. Similar benefits are also obtained by using a linear power supply on Uptone Audio's EtherREGEN with even greater benefits of going single-mode 1310nm optical fiber on the "in" side. All at a fraction of the PhoenixNet cost.

The audio hitting the DAVE benefits greatly from ethernet treatments.


----------



## SteveHulk

GryphonGuy said:


> Whilst the PhoenixNet appears to be an elegant 1-box solution, I chose a different route. Similar benefits are also obtained by using a linear power supply on Uptone Audio's EtherREGEN with even greater benefits of going single-mode 1310nm optical fiber on the "in" side. All at a fraction of the PhoenixNet cost.
> 
> The audio hitting the DAVE benefits greatly from ethernet treatments.


My system is file-based. I'm not streaming music over ethernet. The ethernet only transmits the commands from my phone to the Zen Mini.

I will implement a fibre bridge to prevent rf nastiness coming into the Zen via that ethernet link.

I have ordered parts and when they come, I'll see how it goes.


----------



## shaylin3

For the network part, you can try Network Acoustics ENO or Muon, which is very effective


----------



## Triode User

GryphonGuy said:


> Whilst the PhoenixNet appears to be an elegant 1-box solution, I chose a different route. Similar benefits are also obtained by using a linear power supply on Uptone Audio's EtherREGEN with even greater benefits of going single-mode 1310nm optical fiber on the "in" side. All at a fraction of the PhoenixNet cost.
> 
> The audio hitting the DAVE benefits greatly from ethernet treatments.


It was an EtherRegen that I sold and replaced with the PhoenixNET when I had it in home demo from my dealer. The improvements were not subtle. The way I used to evaluate was to pull the Ethernet cable from the back of my streamer/server after setting the track to play. The NET was the same sound as no connection.  The ER was not. To my mind using that method for evaluation gave me a good basis for evaluating ‘better’.


----------



## Triode User

SteveHulk said:


> My system is file-based. I'm not streaming music over ethernet. The ethernet only transmits the commands from my phone to the Zen Mini.
> 
> I will implement a fibre bridge to prevent rf nastiness coming into the Zen via that ethernet link.
> 
> I have ordered parts and when they come, I'll see how it goes.


I also only use the network connection to transmit commands to my streamer/server regarding which locally stored track to output to my Mscaler + Dave. 

When your parts arrive do try a better power supply with the receive side. It made a big difference with mine. 

If you ordered the parts from Clive’s posted Amazon link they came the next day for me.


----------



## LucyWu

The Raal SR1a's are the only headphones I've held onto for more than a year (except Grado SR80s I bought in 2001 and still have, but they aren't for listening pleasure). Utopia's, HD800s, KSE1200s, PS1000s, HifiMan HE6 & HE1000 V2's - all in and out in short order. Only the Raal's are all-day comfortable and offer an open window into the music. With Dave pushing the music, the Raals show everything and the better honed the system, the more they give you.

Wrong thread but I'd be interested to hear if anyone has tried the new transformer-based interface box directly with the XLR outputs from Dave.


----------



## genefruit

LucyWu said:


> Wrong thread but I'd be interested to hear if anyone has tried the new transformer-based interface box directly with the XLR outputs from Dave.


I’ve tried the headphone out of the DAVE with the T1&CA combo. I can try the XLR out later today. Depending upon listening levels and material, it could suffice but I think many will want more power.


----------



## LucyWu

genefruit said:


> I’ve tried the headphone out of the DAVE with the T1&CA combo. I can try the XLR out later today. Depending upon listening levels and material, it could suffice but I think many will want more power.


Thanks Gene - that would be excellent - how did it sound out of the 'phones socket?


----------



## George Hincapie

RobertSM said:


> This guy again?!
> 
> Yes, he was gracing us with his presence in the Lina thread a week ago or two ago.
> 
> ...



You clearly don't understand the point of ASR.


----------



## SteveHulk (Aug 4, 2022)

LucyWu said:


> ... With Dave pushing the music, the Raals show everything and the better honed the system, the more they give you.
> 
> Wrong thread but I'd be interested to hear if anyone has tried the new transformer-based interface box directly with the XLR outputs from Dave.


I don't think what you suggest will work very well.

The XLR outputs of DAVE are signal outputs, not power outputs. The DAVE will expect them to be connected to a device with very high input impedance so that only very small currents will need to be delivered.

The transformer box that comes with the RAAL merely changes the effective impedance that the output of an amplifier sees when driving them. It is totally passive and so cannot add power. 

The ribbon technology of the RAAL naturally presents an extremely low impedance - as I understood it approx 0.1Ω - so most amplifiers would see this as effectively a dead short. Very few amplifiers can withstand their outputs being shorted in this way.

In fact, putting this kind of near-short on the XLR signal output of the DAVE might be an EXTREMELY bad idea! 

The transformer box allows a higher impedance more in line with regular headphones to be presented to the amplifier.

Also, on a practical level, your amplifier would work best if it has XLR headphone output. Otherwise you'll also need some ugly adaptors to convert to XLR as I think the transformer box only has XLR sockets.


----------



## GryphonGuy

SteveHulk said:


> My system is file-based. I'm not streaming music over ethernet. The ethernet only transmits the commands from my phone to the Zen Mini.
> 
> I will implement a fibre bridge to prevent rf nastiness coming into the Zen via that ethernet link.
> 
> I have ordered parts and when they come, I'll see how it goes.



I rarely stream either.

My in-house music transmission is mostly AOIP using single-mode fibre for trunks and copper for the last half metre. The protocols used are dante.

Regards
GG


----------



## GryphonGuy

Triode User said:


> It was an EtherRegen that I sold and replaced with the PhoenixNET when I had it in home demo from my dealer. The improvements were not subtle. The way I used to evaluate was to pull the Ethernet cable from the back of my streamer/server after setting the track to play. The NET was the same sound as no connection.  The ER was not. To my mind using that method for evaluation gave me a good basis for evaluating ‘better’.



I'm actually toying with the idea of getting Sean to build me another ARC6 to power the ERs (plural) in my system as each power supply upgrade shows me that the ER scales well with better power. Single-mode fibre was the biggest transparency change over the network in my experience here. Good to see that different flavours work in different circumstances.

Regards
GG


----------



## LucyWu (Aug 5, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> I don't think what you suggest will work very well.
> 
> The XLR outputs of DAVE are signal outputs, not power outputs. The DAVE will expect them to be connected to a device with very high input impedance so that only very small currents will need to be delivered.
> 
> ...


Agreed.

My question was based on the simple premise that the new transformer box allows amps upwards of 2 watts rated power, that maybe there was enough voltage available for it to work. The Raals do have a low impedance and as such require lots of current but low voltages.

But the numbers don't seem to stack up and it was a fairly idle fancy, so idea dropped and onto the next brainwave


----------



## SteveHulk

George Hincapie said:


> You clearly don't understand the point of ASR.


I still don't know whether to take this comment at face value or as a deep sarcasm 😀


----------



## miketlse

SteveHulk said:


> I still don't know whether to take this comment at face value or as a deep sarcasm 😀


I was struggling to fathom it out, so I read some of his recent posts, including this one.

"So while you can argue that you'd prefer to see X, Y or Z measurement used, as long as the same measurements are being taken consistently of every applicable device that's tested then you have an accurate frame for comparison."

Using that logic, if you consistently measure the case surface colour of every piece of kit that you test, then you will have an accurate frame for comparison.
Yes you will have a consistent frame for comparison, even though in this example it will explain nothing about what the device will sound like.

I have made my mind up now, but YMMV.


----------



## George Hincapie

SteveHulk said:


> I still don't know whether to take this comment at face value or as a deep sarcasm 😀



I realised after I posted it that it might be misinterpreted 

I have been following ASR for 6 months or so, and find the premise of objectively measuring the performance of components interesting and really useful. However, their forums are a blooming scary place. The detail they obsess over is just beyond my comprehension. How much autism would you like? Yes!


----------



## George Hincapie (Aug 5, 2022)

miketlse said:


> I was struggling to fathom it out, so I read some of his recent posts, including this one.
> 
> "So while you can argue that you'd prefer to see X, Y or Z measurement used, as long as the same measurements are being taken consistently of every applicable device that's tested then you have an accurate frame for comparison."
> 
> ...



Don't be too quick to judge, I'm a nice chap really.

And with respect to your comments on that quoted post I think it's gone over your head. You know very well I was talking about applicable measurements for whatever the device is, so I have no idea why you felt the need to be so obtuse. Behave yourself.


----------



## SteveHulk

George Hincapie said:


> Don't be too quick to judge, I'm a nice chap really.


*I'M JOKING HERE* 😀

That reminds me of the scene at the beginning of "Aliens" in Ripley's hospital room on Gateway Station where Burke tells her: "I work for the company but don't let that fool you, I'm really an OK guy."

We pretty much all know what happened after that! 😅

*I'M JUST JOKING...* [running into the bunker just as the blast doors close] 🙂


----------



## miketlse

George Hincapie said:


> Don't be too quick to judge, I'm a nice chap really.
> 
> And with respect to your comments on that quoted post I think it's gone over your head. You know very well I was talking about applicable measurements for whatever the device is, so I have no idea why you felt the need to be so obtuse. Behave yourself.


I will PM you.


----------



## Sampajanna

George Hincapie said:


> Don't be too quick to judge, I'm a nice chap really.
> 
> And with respect to your comments on that quoted post I think it's gone over your head. You know very well I was talking about applicable measurements for whatever the device is, so I have no idea why you felt the need to be so obtuse. Behave yourself.


The fact that you are nice is why you woke up and left the cult.  
FWIW I like this post.


----------



## pichler

I've had the Dave since May, so my experience is limited. In these days where many of the inhabitants of my town and the industrial activities are almost all closed for holidays, the quality of the listening is exceptional. The configuration that amuses me the most for sound quality is with win laptop with Asio drivers (A / B test between MacBook Pro and Win Laptop, I like the second much more) Audirvana for PC, simple USB cables from Vision Cable, Phoenix USB, Dave, 2 Etudes and speakers. The sound is so "free" and very pleasant, dynamic, all frequencies are "disciplined", wow. You've often written bass and vocals, handled by Dave in a fantastic way, well, now I can see that. My goal will therefore be to "clean" the power supply. Sooner or later I'll try SteveHulk's solution, with batteries and inverters, Triode User was talking about Airlink transformers....
What solution could help me to recreate this fantastic situation without having to affect the Italian gold reserves?


----------



## hmartin

I was aslo intrigued by Triode Users recommending Airlink / Plixir. So I wanted to get a Plixir Elite BAC to try, sadly the Swedish importer only carry the BDC products and ordering from Plixir is 220 in postage. Can anyone recommend a online dealer in EU that carry Plixir Elite BAC?


----------



## JamieMcC

A written review with some comparisons of the Dave to the new dcs lina dac there is also a new video review on youtube.

https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2022/08/05/the-dcs-lina-dac-review-with-speakers/


----------



## Triode User

hmartin said:


> I was aslo intrigued by Triode Users recommending Airlink / Plixir. So I wanted to get a Plixir Elite BAC to try, sadly the Swedish importer only carry the BDC products and ordering from Plixir is 220 in postage. Can anyone recommend a online dealer in EU that carry Plixir Elite BAC?


The PliXir has (or at least mine has) a quality UK sourced balanced transformer in it not unlike the AirLink one although not the same manufacturer. So in effect the difference between the two brands comes down to the aesthetics of the case. If you can find a place to hide the AirLink version out of sight that might be easier to obtain.


----------



## hmartin

Triode User said:


> The PliXir has (or at least mine has) a quality UK sourced balanced transformer in it not unlike the AirLink one although not the same manufacturer. So in effect the difference between the two brands comes down to the aesthetics of the case. If you can find a place to hide the AirLink version out of sight that might be easier to obtain.


Thanks, but actually they seem even harder to find, I only find them in UK with the UK connectors. In UK futureshop has Plixir but only with UK power connectors. Found some german shop with Plixir listed but the shop had very bad reviews on trustpilot….

But Airlink is a name that makes it harder to google for them.


----------



## Triode User (Aug 6, 2022)

hmartin said:


> Thanks, but actually they seem even harder to find, I only find them in UK with the UK connectors. In UK futureshop has Plixir but only with UK power connectors. Found some german shop with Plixir listed but the shop had very bad reviews on trustpilot….
> 
> But Airlink is a name that makes it harder to google for them.


Try emailing AirLink direct. I just quickly went into their website and pulled up this one which may or may not be what you need but the point is they are flexible in what they can configure and very reasonably priced.

https://airlinktransformers.com/product/conditioning-balanced-power-supply-cbs3000eu


----------



## muski

Been listening to this on repeat all week—a recording seemingly made for M Scaler + DAVE.

Detail, transients, and double bass pizzicato like I've never heard before.

Stunning by any measure.

https://open.qobuz.com/album/y2bkzzifpd4ua

cheers,
muski


----------



## fiiom11pro

Just wondering what are the daily drivers of Chord Dave users here.


----------



## The Jester

fiiom11pro said:


> Just wondering what are the daily drivers of Chord Dave users here.


ASIO ?
🤔


----------



## fiiom11pro

I mean headphones.


The Jester said:


> ASIO ?
> 🤔


I mean headphones. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## zen87192

LCD-5's and Sundara's...


----------



## LucyWu

Raal Sr-1a's.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

No headphones, Acoustic Zen Crescendo Mk2 speakers though.


----------



## Reactcore

fiiom11pro said:


> Just wondering what are the daily drivers of Chord Dave users here.


See my sig. 😊
Yes theyre old tech released in 2009 but still my piecacake


----------



## paulrbarnard

zen87192 said:


> LCD-5's and Sundara's...


LCD-5 here too but I prefer them via a Woo WA7 rather than the DAVE HP out. Just a touch warmer.


----------



## zen87192

paulrbarnard said:


> LCD-5 here too but I prefer them via a Woo WA7 rather than the DAVE HP out. Just a touch warmer.


LCD-5's playing through a DAVE with the Farad Super 3 Power upgrade.... something different... I can tell you... 😁 🎧


----------



## paulrbarnard

zen87192 said:


> LCD-5's playing through a DAVE with the Farad Super 3 Power upgrade.... something different... I can tell you... 😁 🎧


I share Rob Watts view on PSU and am quite happy with the inbuilt SMPS. I have no burning desire to change it. 
That said I would love to try one at some point to satisfy my curiosity as so many here are very happy with their upgrades.


----------



## Hiker816

LucyWu said:


> Raal Sr-1a's.


RAAL SR1a for me too, along with ZMF VCs.


----------



## zen87192

I just tried my Verum 1 MK2's from the DAVE since it had its new Farads installed..... crikey..... that's  a massive step up... they've come alive!! Sounds absolutely awesome 👌


----------



## zen87192

I would love to try those RAAL SR1-a Earfield Headphones! They look to be a fabulous change in listening and sound.


----------



## zen87192

paulrbarnard said:


> I share Rob Watts view on PSU and am quite happy with the inbuilt SMPS. I have no burning desire to change it.
> That said I would love to try one at some point to satisfy my curiosity as so many here are very happy with their upgrades.


Absolutely nothing wrong with the existing SMPS Power Supply within the DAVE but.... it's a hell of a different machine with the Farad's in.... if you're ever near Buckinghamshire PM me and you'll be welcome to have a listen. 🎶 🎶


----------



## muski

fiiom11pro said:


> Just wondering what are the daily drivers of Chord Dave users here.


Focal Utopia headphones…


----------



## zen87192

I may have the opportunity to demo a Benchmark AHB2 Power Amplifier. Does anyone here connect to a DAVE? If so, how does it connect as its a Balanced Power Amp? How does it sound with your DAVE? 
Cheers to all who chime in with their comments and suggestions 🍻


----------



## Icenine2

fiiom11pro said:


> Just wondering what are the daily drivers of Chord Dave users here.


DCA Stealth


----------



## GryphonGuy

paulrbarnard said:


> I share Rob Watts view on PSU and am quite happy with the inbuilt SMPS. I have no burning desire to change it.
> That said I would love to try one at some point to satisfy my curiosity as so many here are very happy with their upgrades.



That's OK to have no desire. I also was entirely happy until smaller network devices with upgraded power supplies showed me how little boxes could be elevated to a higher plane.

If you can detect and enjoy subtleties of audio I would strongly suggest NOT auditioning power upgrades to components as you'll only make your wallet squirm and play a hide-and-seek game with you.


----------



## pichler

If only greater cleaning of the electricity grid caused by the holidays has given me significant benefits, I cannot imagine what a quality power supply can do ........


----------



## fiiom11pro

muski said:


> Focal Utopia headphones…


I bet you are running it off the headphone out since it is very easy to drive? Am I right?


----------



## DJJEZ (Aug 8, 2022)

zen87192 said:


> I may have the opportunity to demo a Benchmark AHB2 Power Amplifier. Does anyone here connect to a DAVE? If so, how does it connect as its a Balanced Power Amp? How does it sound with your DAVE?
> Cheers to all who chime in with their comments and suggestions 🍻


Ive used AHB2 and DAVE. AHB2 only has XLR so use the dave's XLR's out from the dave and put the dave in pre amp mode before connecting it all so you can control the volume. Its very important you don't use dac mode or you will fry your headphones if they are connected to the AHB2 with music playing lol


----------



## OCC7N

chesebert said:


> I honestly think Rob is BSing us with his “timing transient” claims. Did he invent this term?


I would be really glad for your opinion on Chord TT2 right before I accept the order tommorow...I just saw the Dave review and thought ASR was trolling...

You recommended the Weiss Dac and I was hooked, I still dont have money for it but I am actually close if I don´t buy the amp(enleum or ferrum stack)...

What would you recommend around the same price?


----------



## Sampajanna (Aug 8, 2022)

Stereophile editor in chief JA discussing ASR in current issue, via the great engineer Bruno Putzey (pay attention to his quote at the end; it is perfect):

_Purifi's people are serious engineers, but don't make the mistake of thinking they mindlessly ally themselves with the simple-minded objectivists who populate certain online discussion forums. They understand that science and engineering must be carefully deployed. Members of the Purifi team seemed to me as impatient with measurements-happy reductionists as with the radical antimeasurements crowd. Sure, it's depressing when a forum post asks, "Is it possible for a component that measures well to sound good?" But owning an Audio Precision analyzer doesn't make you an expert, and the unguided application of analytical tools can lead you far astray.

Knowing what to measure is critical, and getting to that point is hard work. As is written in a Purifi blog post—it's unsigned, but the voice and some biographical details sound like Putzeys's—"We don't so much hear distortion levels as distortion mechanisms. You need to understand the mechanism before you can design a test that will quantify it sensibly."_

And this comment below the article on the site is perfect also:

_What I am getting out of this is that I should go out and buy an AP analyzer (and maybe a Klippel NFS?) and then proceed to measure a bunch of stuff, make a forum, provide 1/4 screen grabs of the AP's screen for "THUH DATA", criticize the inventors and makers of any products that "fail my standards", harass/mock/ban anyone who disagrees, Monday-morning-quarterback established product engineers and designers in the industry as often as possible (ESPECIALLY when they cost more than ChiFi), and then devise some type of iconography with which I could associate my rating system. Mayhaps a Panther???..... _


----------



## Icenine2

JA. Beautifully written as always. A well read man  and a great writer.


----------



## Ciggavelli

I love to see that!


----------



## Sampajanna (Aug 8, 2022)

Skim through the now 40+ page tantrum on ASR and it will tell you everything about that community. Even if there are valuable insights over there and technical measurements that could be valuable to learning, just look at what one has to wade through to find any of it. This kind of seriousness might be warranted in a discussion about medical science or car safety, but in the hobby of Hifi it is so ridiculous. None of these folks are having a good time at all. Who would want them at a listening party?

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...philes-snide-editorial-on-asr-and-amir.35872/


----------



## muski

fiiom11pro said:


> I bet you are running it off the headphone out since it is very easy to drive? Am I right?


Absolutely correct!


----------



## DJJEZ

Sampajanna said:


> _What I am getting out of this is that I should go out and buy an AP analyzer (and maybe a Klippel NFS?) and then proceed to measure a bunch of stuff, make a forum, provide 1/4 screen grabs of the AP's screen for "THUH DATA", criticize the inventors and makers of any products that "fail my standards", harass/mock/ban anyone who disagrees, Monday-morning-quarterback established product engineers and designers in the industry as often as possible (ESPECIALLY when they cost more than ChiFi), and then devise some type of iconography with which I could associate my rating system. Mayhaps a Panther???..... _


Brilliant 👏


----------



## Lgn3

I would be surprised if I am alone in finding the refusal of some posters to move on from the ASR review, becoming increasingly tedious.


----------



## Sampajanna

Fair enough. i’ll sheath my sword for now. Back to the Dave and its marvelous transparency and instrument separation!


----------



## SoupRKnowva (Aug 10, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> Welcome to the club!👍
> Are u using a HMS too?
> 
> Looking forward to your impressions.. i see wavedream also does upsampling inside



Ive had my Dave for quite a while and ended up keeping it over the my Wavedream Signature XLR, below is a review I wrote up comparing the two on another site.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

When I purchased my Wavedream Signature XLR I thought for sure it was going to be my endgame dac. My impressions were glowing. It did everything at such a higher level than anything else I had heard. The main thing it did that really wowed me was in separation. This is a facet of sound that I care a great deal about and it blew everything else Ive heard out of the water. The Wavedream never sounded congested no matter how complex the song got, it never even flinched.

I was incredibly happy with where I was, and honestly, I wasnt even interested in any other dacs that were out. None of them peaked my interest at all, I was spending my time tweaking my digital front end for the Wavedream, contemplating spending too much money on a Wavedream NET player to pair with it.

I can't remember anymore what caused it, but at some point 2-3 months ago, the Dave caught my eye. I don't remember if it was a post somewhere, or a video on Youtube. But something made me pay attention to it. It was then that I started reading more about the Dave and watching some of Rob Watt's presentations. I don't think it's a stretch to say that Chord products don't have a good rep here at ****, so I hadn't ever even considered them or paid attention to them or their tech outside of seeing people meme about the tap counts Rob Watts talks about.

The more I read about the tech inside, the more intrigued I got about the Dave. The things Rob Watts was saying about digital filtering lined up alot more with what I know about digital sampling from my signals and systems classes in school and reading I've done since. (As an aside, Rob Watts has alot of ideas, right or wrong, about why we hear differences in things that we do, his blog on head-fi is an interesting read). I never in a million years thought the Dave would actually be my preferred DAC versus the Wavedream. Based on the other impressions I have read I thought it would turn out to just be soso, and I would sell it off and go about my business, but I was still interested enough to want to hear one, and I wanted to give it a fair shake, postulating that the filtering may take time to appreciate, so I decided to purchase one.


I have learned to trust my gut when it comes to gear. This sometimes gets me into trouble as I often don't take the time to pick apart why I like or dislike something, making it very difficult to write impressions. Usually when I swapped other DACs into my system in place of the Wavedream, I would immediately want to switch back, and rather than fight that urge, I would do just that, rather than waste time with the new DAC.

The first thing I can say about the Dave, is that that did not happen. I plugged it in and felt no urge to switch back to the Wavedream. Within half an hour or so that first night I was writing to friends saying that it had impressive depth presentation. I then listened to the Dave exclusively for 2 weeks. This is my preferred method of evaluating new gear, throw it in the rig, leave it alone for a while to get accustomed to it, and then switch back and do some comparisons. During those two weeks I really dug the Dave, subjectively it was pulling me into the music in a way that the Wavedream hadn't. It was getting my toes tapping and my head bopping more than before, I was more involved with the music. I continued to be impressed by the depth presentation, but even more impressive was the separation it was providing.

After the two weeks I popped the Wavedream back in and something happened I never thought I would say. The Dave makes the Wavedream sound congested on my most difficult tracks, this was the biggest surprise of this entire endeavor. Another thing I had heard peope tell me was that I wouldn't like the Dave as it wouldn't have this "drive" I call it to the music, the ability to effectively portray the energy of the track. I think I have done a crappy job trying to explain this facet of sound I like so much and first heard in the Gungnir DS, that Convert 2 and for the most part Wavedream Sig had, because I wouldnt say the Dave is lacking at all. When I put on some deathcore, the Dave will abso-****ing-lutely slam, and slam ****ing hard. Dave knows how to crack to 11 when it needs to, but what it also does, is dance like a feather when it needs to when I put on some close mic'd female vocals.

This gets to the real crux of my impression of the Dave. I think it is more "expressive" than other dacs I have heard. Sometimes it will have the flattest stage you've ever heard, other times it will be absolutely cavernous, but one thing it isnt, is either one of those, all the time, it is a chameleon like that. It can slam, but it can also flutter, and I think it is exactly this that draws me so into the music when listenint to the Dave. There is also an "ease" I'll call it to the music. When you listen to it back to back with the Wavedream, there is an ever so slight harshness you woudln't have noticed on the Wavedream on it's own, but when compared to the Dave, you realize this is a sin of commission. But that slight harshness or edge, isnt required to bring the energy I want either.

It isn't all roses and rainbows for the Dave though, there are some areas where I think it loses to the Wavedream. The main two being clarity and realism in the upper midrange and microdynamics. I wrote a lot about microdynamics in my Wavedream impressions, and I stand by all of that, it gives the Wavedream a certain realism that is astounding, Dave doesn't quite have the liquidity that the superb microdynamics bring. The Wavedream also has this absolute midrange clarity, most obvious on some female vocals, that the Dave lacks.


All of these comparisons were done using a ultraRendu direct into the Dave's USB port. This is another very interesting thing. The Dave sounded better via USB direct than using the Audiobyte Hydra-Z I had previously replaced my pi2aes with. The Dave was also connected directly to my Coda No 8 v1, power amp, using the internal pre on the Dave just like I do with the Wavedream. Call it heresy if you want, but I havent heard a pre yet beat the digital volume control in Wavedream.


For the last few days I have also had the mega scaler in the chain, and I can say this lifts the performance of the Dave across the board. There are three main areas though that I think it improves. First separation is taken to an even more absurd degree, but unlike some, I dont ever think this sounds bad or like it is taken too far. Things aren't spread apart further than they should be, they just never get mixed up, you never have trouble telling one sound from another. Second, clarity, particularly in the midrange takes a step up. That deficit Dave had versus Wavedream on female vocals, isn't eliminated, but it is narrowed. And Lastly, bass delineation. The ability to separation tone and pitch and placement in the bass is dramatically improved with the mega scaler. Bass also has more snap and impact.


Overall the Dave experiment, as heretical as some friends thought it was, saying I was buying it just to crap on it like I did the D90SE, turned out to be an incredible sucess. Don't let the opinions of others stop you from trying something if it catches your eye, heck, you might even find your new favorite DAC in the process.

TLDR: The Dave does separation better than anything I've heard, including the Wavedream, gets my toes tapping and my head bopping unlike any other dac, and also has an incredible USB input, when combined with the mega scaler, this is easily the best digital I have ever heard.


----------



## SteveHulk

SoupRKnowva said:


> Ive had my Dave for quite a while and ended up keeping it over the my Wavedream Signature XLR, below is a review I wrote up comparing the two on another site.
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> ...


Sounds like you are in love... ❤️🙂

Put the DAVE and m scaler on Farad3 lps and you can elope together!


----------



## pichler

SoupRKnowva said:


> Ive had my Dave for quite a while and ended up keeping it over the my Wavedream Signature XLR, below is a review I wrote up comparing the two on another site.
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> ...


Hi, I agree when you call Dave "chameleon". Well wrote


----------



## Reactcore

pichler said:


> Hi, I agree when you call Dave "chameleon". Well wrote



Nice writeup!

Try also source > optical > Scaler > optical > Dave > headphones (or amp) with nothing else connected.

This way you break all groundloops..
I wonder what u think..


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Reactcore said:


> Nice writeup!
> 
> Try also source > optical > Scaler > optical > Dave > headphones (or amp) with nothing else connected.
> 
> ...


I did try running optical into the MScaler from my pi2aes, and it was very good, but I thought usb from my ultrarendu did just barely edge it out in refinement. As for connecting the MScaler and Dave with optical, im not willing to spend the money on the opto-dx kit to find out. Im also not really interested in psu rolling. 

Since I wrote the review I have also upgraded from the Coda No8 to the Coda 16.0, they totl amp.


----------



## Reactcore

SoupRKnowva said:


> I did try running optical into the MScaler from my pi2aes, and it was very good, but I thought usb from my ultrarendu did just barely edge it out in refinement. As for connecting the MScaler and Dave with optical, im not willing to spend the money on the opto-dx kit to find out. Im also not really interested in psu rolling.


It was actually after i tried both optical in and out i noticed the effect.. even at 250 taps you can hear more refinement


----------



## ZappaMan (Aug 11, 2022)

I’m wearing headphones, ether 2.

I have mscaler connected on dnc 3/4.
When I select *dnbc* 3 input the music is full says sample rate 705.
When I accidentally lol, switch to *BNC* 4, the music sounds tinny in comparison, says sample rate is 352.

Is this the mscaler effect ? Or have I got the cables the wrong way round - including using opto dx ….

And with the cables the wrong way round could it be not actually delivering the proper signal to the dac ?

The major sound difference is a big shift in depth.

Maybe if it is the mscaler effect, then other may find it more easy to perceive the change this way rather than toggling the sample rate change on the mscaler.

And the song for reference is the last track on  orbitals - in sides - out there somewhere pt 2.


—
When I toggle through sample rate on mscaler while on d Bnc 3. Dave registers 44, 88, 176, then skips to 705.
If I switch to Bnc 4, it will only register when mscaler is full upscaling, but it only registers the 352 rate.


----------



## Powersquat

ZappaMan said:


> I’m wearing headphones, ether 2.
> 
> I have mscaler connected on dnc 3/4.
> When I select *dnbc* 3 input the music is full says sample rate 705.
> ...



I believe this behaviour is normal, Ive experienced exactly the same thing, albeit in a 2 channel set up.  

As I understand it, when connected to BNC 3 and 4 the dual signal from the MScaler is only active when Bnc 3 is selected on the Dave, if you switch to Bnc 4, the Dave only detects The signal from 1 Bnc cable, (Bnc 4), hence the lower sample rate and associated drop in sound quality.


----------



## ZappaMan

Powersquat said:


> I believe this behaviour is normal, Ive experienced exactly the same thing, albeit in a 2 channel set up.
> 
> As I understand it, when connected to BNC 3 and 4 the dual signal from the MScaler is only active when Bnc 3 is selected on the Dave, if you switch to Bnc 4, the Dave only detects The signal from 1 Bnc cable, (Bnc 4), hence the lower sample rate and associated drop in sound quality.


And just to doubly confirm, the lower sample rate is the full single, as in all of the music information, but just upsampled to 300ish…
Because the change seems much re pronounced them toggling through mscaler sample setting.


----------



## HeeBroG

and it's a mono signal i think so a dramatic drop in SQ


----------



## Icenine2

I am correct that connecting HMS to 1/2 is the same as 3/4 yes?


----------



## Icenine2

Lgn3 said:


> I would be surprised if I am alone in finding the refusal of some posters to move on from the ASR review, becoming increasingly tedious.


Yes. Please take yourselves over to the Head-Case forum instead. They have ZERO tolerance of tedium, post and say whatever they like. You will not escape.


----------



## alxw0w

Icenine2 said:


> I am correct that connecting HMS to 1/2 is the same as 3/4 yes?


Basically yes. 
But some people found (me also) that 3 and 4 inputs sound just a bit better (smoother, darker) than 1&2, when used with the m scaler.


----------



## Icenine2

I will switch them now and check it out. Thank you.


----------



## Reactcore

Yup. No difference


----------



## Somatic

@Farad3 Gang

Currently I hear great improvements adding the LPS to the Dave. I’m using the headphone out. Now I just bought an external amp, Ferrum Stack. So, wondering if I should go Dave in Pre AMP mode or DAC mode to get the most benefit from the LPS … any ideas?

@801evan I know. Source. Been working on that. I wanted to try out an external amp.


----------



## SteveHulk

Somatic said:


> @Farad3 Gang
> 
> Currently I hear great improvements adding the LPS to the Dave. I’m using the headphone out. Now I just bought an external amp, Ferrum Stack. So, wondering if I should go Dave in Pre AMP mode or DAC mode to get the most benefit from the LPS … any ideas?
> 
> @801evan I know. Source. Been working on that. I wanted to try out an external amp.


I think it is probably more a question of the quality of the two volume controls rather than power supplies.

The only difference between DAC mode and preamp mode on the DAVE is that in DAC mode the volume control is set to -3dB. The circuitry used is both cases is identical. 

I think also that if you want to use the DAVE volume control you should set the Ferrum volume control to max, thereby effectively short-circuiting it.


----------



## Somatic

SteveHulk said:


> I think it is probably more a question of the quality of the two volume controls rather than power supplies.
> 
> The only difference between DAC mode and preamp mode on the DAVE is that in DAC mode the volume control is set to -3dB. The circuitry used is both cases is identical.
> 
> I think also that if you want to use the DAVE volume control you should set the Ferrum volume control to max, thereby effectively short-circuiting it.


Ok thanks for the tips.


----------



## rkt31

I used xduoo x10t V1 optical out to m scaler and used my phone usb out via uapp with ifi idefender and 3 isilencer in series. I fed idefender with 4xAA batteries to replace usb power line of mobile phone. My usb cable is oyaide neo A class with 7 ferrite clips. Even cable for feedings 4xAA battery power to idefender have many ferrites. This may seem overkill but the results are unbelievable. this usb route even beat optical out of xduoo x10t. There is complete lack of grain and background is blacker than black. M scaler to tt2 is furutech custom coaxial digital bnc cable with 7 to 8 ferrites. Both tt2 and m scaler are fed by 12v 27ah lead acid batteries. Lead acid batteries don't have any circuit or regulator so you get the cleanest power. Tt2 is fed to benchmark ahb2, both  tt2 and ahb2 in low gain . Speakers are wharfedale evo 4.2. no wonder the set up is one of the cleanest sounding one can have.


----------



## Reactcore

rkt31 said:


> Both tt2 and m scaler are fed by 12v 27ah lead acid batteries.


Exactly what i would do too.

How long playtime do you get on a full charge?


----------



## rkt31

Reactcore said:


> Exactly what i would do too.
> 
> How long playtime do you get on a full charge?


Around 15 to 20 hours


----------



## ZappaMan

rkt31 said:


> Around 15 to 20 hours


Which one you get?


----------



## Reactcore

rkt31 said:


> Around 15 to 20 hours


How does HMS & TT2 behave when you reach minimum voltage treshold, do they toggle on/off?


----------



## rkt31

ZappaMan said:


> Which one you get?


I live in India. It's 27ah car/ups battery easily available anywhere.


----------



## rkt31

Reactcore said:


> How does HMS & TT2 behave when you reach minimum voltage treshold, do they toggle on/off?


M scaler starts dropping the data and tt2 stops giving sound output . But i never leave both with low batteries.


----------



## zen87192

Connecting my Fiio M17 DAP to the DAVE via USB in to SRC-DX then Wave Storm to DAVE. Wow! I presume its because the M17 is Battery Operated and is also Upscaling to the DAVE via well shielded Wave Storm Cable. This is fantastic and I'm sure the Farad Super 3 Power Supply is making a huge difference as well. Well happy with my set up now. 🎧


----------



## Somatic

So is RCA the more transparent option vs XLR out of the Dave? Going to connect to the Ferrum Oor. I think I saw that Rob mentions RCA but not sure why. @adrianm likes the RCA with Ferrum Oor fyi.


----------



## DJJEZ

Somatic said:


> So is RCA the more transparent option vs XLR out of the Dave? Going to connect to the Ferrum Oor. I think I saw that Rob mentions RCA but not sure why. @adrianm likes the RCA with Ferrum Oor fyi.


Yes RCA is more transparent than XLR on chord DACS.


----------



## Somatic

DJJEZ said:


> Yes RCA is more transparent than XLR on chord DACS.


Ok cool. Going to buy some RCA cables and got to get my Lavrigrand cable reterminated.


----------



## Kentajalli

Somatic said:


> So is RCA the more transparent option vs XLR out of the Dave? Going to connect to the Ferrum Oor. I think I saw that Rob mentions RCA but not sure why. @adrianm likes the RCA with Ferrum Oor fyi.


Internally all Chord Dacs are single ended by architecture .
The tabletop versions, as a feature, do have balanced output, but it is a buffered output derived from single ended (RCA).
It is there to combat possible ground noise, or should there be a need to use a poweramp that takes balanced only.
Like my tube amps!


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> So is RCA the more transparent option vs XLR out of the Dave? Going to connect to the Ferrum Oor. I think I saw that Rob mentions RCA but not sure why. @adrianm likes the RCA with Ferrum Oor fyi.


This was also measured by ASR/Goldensound. The reason why it's less transparent is because it's not a true balanced architecture, so there's an additional conversion step involved.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

JamieMcC said:


> A written review with some comparisons of the Dave to the new dcs lina dac there is also a new video review on youtube.
> 
> https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2022/08/05/the-dcs-lina-dac-review-with-speakers/



"The Dave gets very very close in sound to the Lina but the Dave leans a bit leaner and sharper where the DCS Lina is fuller, thicker, smoother with more density yet it never moves anywhere near dull or soft territory. The DCS has that density and drive and fullness that no other DAC I have auditioned has."

That's what id aim for when upgrading the dac, lookout for "fuller, thicker, smoother with more density" because that's what high end analogue sounds like to me and its never fat or mushy is still fast and effortless, there's so much you miss in Digital playback. I don't know if its ringing from filters and or brick wall filters but I doesn't sound natural in comparison when im listening to CDs.


----------



## Triode User

AnalogEuphoria said:


> "The Dave gets very very close in sound to the Lina but the Dave leans a bit leaner and sharper where the DCS Lina is fuller, thicker, smoother with more density yet it never moves anywhere near dull or soft territory. The DCS has that density and drive and fullness that no other DAC I have auditioned has."
> 
> That's what id aim for when upgrading the dac, lookout for "fuller, thicker, smoother with more density" because that's what high end analogue sounds like to me and its never fat or mushy is still fast and effortless, there's so much you miss in Digital playback. I don't know if its ringing from filters and or brick wall filters but I doesn't sound natural in comparison when im listening to CDs.


The Dave I am listening to with its Sean Jacobs power supply is “fuller, thicker, smoother with more density yet it never moves anywhere near dull or soft territory”. 

I don’t doubt the Lina attractions but I have no inclination to go there (because I am already there).


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Triode User said:


> The Dave I am listening to with its Sean Jacobs power supply is “fuller, thicker, smoother with more density yet it never moves anywhere near dull or soft territory”.
> 
> I don’t doubt the Lina attractions but I have no inclination to go there (because I am already there).



If you're 100% happy with that sound then absolutely no need to ever bother with another DAC.

When im trying out a DAC I will compare it with my turntable and the closer the better, vinyl has a liquid sound with sustain and decay that CDs and streaming don't produce very well. There's no doubt its technical performance is inferior by a mile compared to Chord, Mola Mola, DCs etc but it sounds incredibly realistic and enjoyable, that's why I use it for as my reference when testing out a new DAC, whichever is closer wins.


----------



## Currawong

Sampajanna said:


> Stereophile editor in chief JA discussing ASR in current issue, via the great engineer Bruno Putzey (pay attention to his quote at the end; it is perfect):
> 
> _Purifi's people are serious engineers, but don't make the mistake of thinking they mindlessly ally themselves with the simple-minded objectivists who populate certain online discussion forums. They understand that science and engineering must be carefully deployed. Members of the Purifi team seemed to me as impatient with measurements-happy reductionists as with the radical antimeasurements crowd. Sure, it's depressing when a forum post asks, "Is it possible for a component that measures well to sound good?" But owning an Audio Precision analyzer doesn't make you an expert, and the unguided application of analytical tools can lead you far astray.
> 
> ...


As much as I've taken him to task on his MQA failings, he has it right here. 


ZappaMan said:


> But I see the posters on chord threads both respect and disagree with Rob on linear power. So I don’t think he is a god figure in that unhealthy sense.


A common tactic by people pushing a narrative is to attack the character of people who don't agree with them. If you observe what they say, you'll see that they are talking about themselves and what they are doing.
Eg: _"You're worshipping Rob Watts."_ Who are they worshipping? It's pretty clear.
_"You're trying to justify equipment purchases."_ That's clearly what they are doing with the measure-bating!
If someone's first post is an _ad hominem_, then just ignore it -- actually, report it as trolling.


----------



## 801evan

Currawong said:


> As much as I've taken him to task on his MQA failings, he has it right here.


False. Even Hans says MQA is the better format when using Dave.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> False. Even Hans says MQA is the better format when using Dave.


How can it be better if it’s objectively worse?


----------



## 801evan

adrianm said:


> How can it be better if it’s objectively worse?


Seeing that you use battery.  I rest my case.


----------



## adrianm (Aug 15, 2022)

801evan said:


> Seeing that you use battery. I rest my case.





Currawong said:


> If someone's first post is an _ad hominem_, then just ignore it -- actually, report it as trolling.


Works beautifully. And I don't ,because I got rid of the M-scaler .


----------



## Stanstan66

801evan said:


> False. Even Hans says MQA is the better format when using Dave.


https://m.neilyoungarchives.com/news/1/article?id=Tidal-Misleading-Listeners


----------



## Somatic

I will find this out soon enough but thought I would ask the gang. When using DAC mode on Dave does it stay cooler than using headphone out? I would assume so. Does it still warm up in DAC mode?


----------



## Kentajalli

Somatic said:


> I will find this out soon enough but thought I would ask the gang. When using DAC mode on Dave does it stay cooler than using headphone out? I would assume so. Does it still warm up in DAC mode?


DAC mode shouldn't affect anything.
Is Dave getting too warm?


----------



## Somatic

Kentajalli said:


> DAC mode shouldn't affect anything.
> Is Dave getting too warm?


Not too hot. Warm. Issue is that I'm in TX now. We have had a hot summer and my office heats up using it after a while. I leave it on standby.


----------



## Kentajalli

801evan said:


> False. Even Hans says MQA is the better format when using Dave.


What's the point of MQA?
is it a form of compression to allow hi-res material to take up same space as standard?
Is it the ability to decode either hi-res or standard from same file?


----------



## Kentajalli

Somatic said:


> Not too hot. Warm. Issue is that I'm in TX now. We have had a hot summer and my office heats up using it after a while. I leave it on standby.


aha, I see.
Buy a tube amp, then.
and you can cool off sitting next to Dave!


----------



## SteveHulk

Now you've taken the smps out of the DAVE it should run quite a bit cooler. However, the heat that is no longer coming from the DAVE itself is probably made up for by the heat coming from the three Farad supplies.

Internally, the DAVE has a substantial heatsink sitting on top of the main chip. That continues to dissipate heat as before so the DAVE still gets warm, simply less so.


----------



## The Jester

Not to forget the MScaler taking some processing load off the connected DAC ?


----------



## Somatic

SteveHulk said:


> Now you've taken the smps out of the DAVE it should run quite a bit cooler. However, the heat that is no longer coming from the DAVE itself is probably made up for by the heat coming from the three Farad supplies.
> 
> Internally, the DAVE has a substantial heatsink sitting on top of the main chip. That continues to dissipate heat as before so the DAVE still gets warm, simply less so.


Yes. Gets less hot. Thanks.


----------



## audio_1

Somatic said:


> Yes. Gets less hot. Thanks.


It's worth mounting the Dave on 30 mm high feet imho. This allows more air flow around it. I use Ceraballs. The top cover on mine is at 28°C (SJ power supply) with a room temperature of 22°C. Plenty of room should also be left around it.


----------



## zen87192

audio_1 said:


> It's worth mounting the Dave on 30 mm high feet imho. This allows more air flow around it. I use Ceraballs. The top cover on mine is at 28°C (SJ power supply) with a room temperature of 22°C. Plenty of room should also be left around it.


Too true... I've got mine located on Vibrapods which as well as making a  difference to the sound allow for more movement of air under the unit.


----------



## Triode User

SteveHulk said:


> Now you've taken the smps out of the DAVE it should run quite a bit cooler. However, the heat that is no longer coming from the DAVE itself is probably made up for by the heat coming from the three Farad supplies.


LPS are a lot less efficient than SMPS so I would amend your comment to, _"However, the heat that is no longer coming from the DAVE itself is probably *far exceeded *by the heat coming from the three Farad supplies."  _


----------



## zen87192

Triode User said:


> LPS are a lot less efficient than SMPS so I would amend your comment to, _"However, the heat that is no longer coming from the DAVE itself is probably *far exceeded *by the heat coming from the three Farad supplies." _


My three Farad's are not as hot in temperature when in use that the DAVE used to get originally.


----------



## Triode User

zen87192 said:


> My three Farad's are not as hot in temperature when in use that the DAVE used to get originally.


The Farad have a cooling fin on the rear so they will dissipate heat and so stay cool but the heat is still generated. My Sean Jacobs ARC6 / DC4 power supply for the Dave also runs cool but that is down to it having a huge surface area to dissipate heat rather than it being more efficient than SMPS. The SMPS is more efficient than LPS so the SMPS will generate less heat. This is a simple fact due to how a LPS works and regulates the voltage compared to how a SMPS works.

In practice though I find it to be a non issue. The hottest my (black) Dave has ever got was when I accidentally left it in full sunlight and it became too hot to even touch.


----------



## zen87192 (Aug 16, 2022)

Triode User said:


> The Farad have a cooling fin on the rear so they will dissipate heat and so stay cool but the heat is still generated. My Sean Jacobs ARC6 / DC4 power supply for the Dave also runs cool but that is down to it having a huge surface area to dissipate heat rather than it being more efficient than SMPS. The SMPS is more efficient than LPS so the SMPS will generate less heat. This is a simple fact due to how a LPS works and regulates the voltage compared to how a SMPS works.
> 
> In practice though I find it to be a non issue. The hottest my (black) Dave has ever got was when I accidentally left it in full sunlight and it became too hot to even touch.


Yup... Farads are only warm to the touch. DAVE is only warm when in use. I guess the heat is now 'shared' between the two as the Supply has been separated.


----------



## Kentajalli

Triode User said:


> LPS are a lot less efficient than SMPS so I would amend your comment to, _"However, the heat that is no longer coming from the DAVE itself is probably *far exceeded *by the heat coming from the three Farad supplies." _


Depends on how the LPS is designed.
In essence, a typical voltage regulator (the heart of an LPS) requires just a couple of volts differential to work.
This means, if it is supposed to output 5V, it needs 7V or more to function, so if the previous section can provide say 8V, the power wastage is roughly, 3V X current supplied at any time. so the voltage differential dictates how much power wastage is going to be.
SMPS are efficient, no doubt - but it doesn't mean they do not waste power. The switching, the inductors and the entire thing generates heat! an SMPS uses pulses of high voltage (350V dc on a 240V AC mains) to charge a capacitor to a desired voltage, and then the capacitor provides the current output, the switch mode keeps topping up the capacitor in fast pulses.
The fact that the Farads don't seem that warm, is because they are so large! they dissipate the heat constantly, so they don't feel hot to the touch.
If one could squeeze Dave to a matchbox size container, it probably be scolding hot! so would the Farads, but it is just a human perspective.


----------



## JamieMcC

AnalogEuphoria said:


> "The Dave gets very very close in sound to the Lina but the Dave leans a bit leaner and sharper where the DCS Lina is fuller, thicker, smoother with more density yet it never moves anywhere near dull or soft territory. The DCS has that density and drive and fullness that no other DAC I have auditioned has."
> 
> That's what id aim for when upgrading the dac, lookout for "fuller, thicker, smoother with more density" because that's what high end analogue sounds like to me and its never fat or mushy is still fast and effortless, there's so much you miss in Digital playback. I don't know if its ringing from filters and or brick wall filters but I doesn't sound natural in comparison when im listening to CDs.



I've owned my Dave for a couple of years now and still think it's marvelous. But that doesn't mean  I'm not open and happy to spend time enjoying and experiencing other options. 

Variety after all is said to be the spice of life.


----------



## pichler

Yesterday in the late afternoon and throughout the evening the listening quality in my usual configuration was as exceptional as ever. I wonder if it's all about the clean current due to holidays and public holidays, or a physiological fact of mine ....... I don't use any kind of substances


----------



## pichler

I guess with a SJ or Farad power supply for the Dave, the "noisy and dirty 220v" variables are less audible. Is that so?


----------



## adrianm

pichler said:


> I guess with a SJ or Farad power supply for the Dave, the "noisy and dirty 220v" variables are less audible. Is that so?


It's not you, before i got my Isotek regenerator Dave was borderline unlistenable with the washing machine and dryer runnning. Not to mention sounded better in the evenings. I imagine the power supplies have the same effect.


----------



## pichler

zen87192 said:


> Too true... I've got mine located on Vibrapods which as well as making a  difference to the sound allow for more movement of air under the unit.


Which model of Vibrapod you use for Dave? 1 or 2?


----------



## zen87192

pichler said:


> Which model of Vibrapod you use for Dave? 1 or 2?


Model 2 Vibrapods which are suitable for the weight and size. I didn't want dinner plates under my DAVE nor turn it into a Hoverboard with thicker ones.


----------



## TheAttorney (Aug 17, 2022)

zen87192 said:


> Model 2 Vibrapods which are suitable for the weight and size. I didn't want dinner plates under my DAVE nor turn it into a Hoverboard with thicker ones.


When I briefly looked at the Vibrapods specs, DAVE's 5kg weight was in between models 1 and 2.
If anything, it was closer to Model 1 (max load 4 x 1.36kg) than Model 2 (min load 4 x 1.81 kg).

According to the Vibrapod website, all 5 models have exactly the same dimensions.

(I'm still using Black Ravioli under my DAVE. I don't know how these compare to Vibrapods, but the BR's are definitely the neatest footers around - just about disappear. I'd be interested to know if the lower cost Vibrapods sound better).


----------



## zen87192 (Aug 16, 2022)

Apologies,  I should have made it clearer that I wanted to a avoid larger Pods from other Manufacturers. I chose Model 2 VibraPods as I wanted to make sure that the DAVE would still be supported nicely even if the Pods became softer due to heat build up in my cupboard. I chose the harder version Model 2 to perhaps combat this (hope that makes sense).


----------



## kawhia

pichler said:


> I wonder if it's all about the clean current due to holidays and public holidays, or a physiological fact of mine


Maybe it is because of the amount of green electricity generated by the sun. Less coal, more sun, better sound. Imagine what a electrically green future will bring us


----------



## ZappaMan

The qobuz app now has a review of antipodes k-50, only 15k…

Must read: https://www.qobuz.com/GB-en/info/Hi-Fi/Bancs-d-essai/Antipodes-K50-Test-An-audio-server186004


----------



## adrianm

ZappaMan said:


> The qobuz app now has a review of antipodes k-50, only 15k…
> 
> Must read: https://www.qobuz.com/GB-en/info/Hi-Fi/Bancs-d-essai/Antipodes-K50-Test-An-audio-server186004


People here have been telling us all along


----------



## pichler

I would try it very willingly, just to really realize what it is capable of, but I understand that there is not even a dealer in Italy.


----------



## Progisus

pichler said:


> I would try it very willingly, just to really realize what it is capable of, but I understand that there is not even a dealer in Italy.


They sell direct worldwide if there is no dealer. K30 user here.


----------



## Ciggavelli

I have the K50. It is good, but still sometimes buggy with my library (which admittedly is very large at around 14tbs). It is substantially less buggy than my previous Innuos Zenith Mk3 though, and it sounds better (though I still use my Innuos PhoenixUSB with the USB out of the K50)


----------



## pichler

Progisus said:


> They sell direct worldwide if there is no dealer. K30 user here.


Yes true. This spring I contacted Mark, a very nice person who told me the same. I also think that if you are lucky enough to have the "collaboration" of a serious dealer, everything becomes easier, (the management of used devices) and certainly also from an economic point of view.


----------



## pichler

Ciggavelli said:


> I have the K50. It is good, but still sometimes buggy with my library (which admittedly is very large at around 14tbs). It is substantially less buggy than my previous Innuos Zenith Mk3 though, and it sounds better (though I still use my Innuos PhoenixUSB with the USB out of the K50)


If there is a difference between the Zenith and the K50 as between the TT2 and the Dave, I am ruined ..... it will be very difficult to resist.

The PhoenixUSB is a really great product.


----------



## Triode User

pichler said:


> If there is a difference between the Zenith and the K50 as between the TT2 and the Dave, I am ruined ..... it will be very difficult to resist.
> 
> The PhoenixUSB is a really great product.


I have a Zenith Mk3 here and a K50. The difference between them is indeed rather the same gulf as it is between a TT2 and a Dave. What I cannot answer is what difference there is between the new Statement with its new Next Gen power supply and a K50. 

The Statement Next Gen power supply is rumoured to make a big difference to the Statement but then it is a Sean Jacobs DC4/ARC6 power supply as used by many of us for our Daves.

I also use a PhoenixUSB with the USB output from my K50.  I connect that to a SRC.DX usb to bnc convertor to feed either a single bnc to the Mscaler (which is what I do) or dual bnc to the Dave direct.

What I really like about the K50 is that it has three slots in the rear so that users can install their own SSD and upgrade the size themselves as and when they wish. I have 3 x 4TB = 12TB total.


----------



## Icenine2

I've noticed many of my Gold Disc MFSL's sound much better than the re-released SACD's on DAVE. With Hugo TT2 it seemed about the same with bass being leaner. With DAVE I'm skipping the DSF files ove the old.


----------



## alxw0w

Icenine2 said:


> I've noticed many of my Gold Disc MFSL's sound much better than the re-released SACD's on DAVE. With Hugo TT2 it seemed about the same with bass being leaner. With DAVE I'm skipping the DSF files ove the old.


Yup, many times these so called 'remasters' (or whatever they call it) are in fact worse than original release.
Just louder or upsampled using 'soft' filters, hence bass being muddier and overall SQ is smeared.


----------



## rkt31

alxw0w said:


> Yup, many times these so called 'remasters' (or whatever they call it) are in fact worse than original release.
> Just louder or upsampled using 'soft' filters, hence bass being muddier and overall SQ is smeared.


If dsd is or even pcm is remastered from original pcm master then almost always it will sound poorer than original pcm master. Good transparent dacs reveal the difference easily. In case of analog master the situation is different. One can always use better adcs and better analog playback machine to get a better digital remaster. So better to stick to original digital pcm master for digital recordings.


----------



## 801evan

New remasters are worse lately coz it's adapted to how the majority listen to music. Nothing to do with new insight on how to improve the original master. What we really need are re-mixed and re-mastered versions coz re-mastering still works on a flat file when one really needs access to the multitracks to re-do dynamics.


----------



## Currawong

rkt31 said:


> If dsd is or even pcm is remastered from original pcm master then almost always it will sound poorer than original pcm master. Good transparent dacs reveal the difference easily. In case of analog master the situation is different. One can always use better adcs and better analog playback machine to get a better digital remaster. So better to stick to original digital pcm master for digital recordings.


Indeed. It has to be re-mastered from the original files, not the final master, to maintain quality.


----------



## The Jester

A lot of the time the “remasters” are re released for a new generation of listeners accustomed to loud overly compressed modern popular music releases, hopefully this will gradually be phased out as more streaming services use the new volume levelling guidelines recently updated, then there will be no perceived benefit in highly compressed recordings at close (or even beyond) 0db, even more promising is that less loud recordings with improved available dynamic range will actually sound better when level matched with the “loud” examples ….
Fingers crossed …


----------



## 801evan

Yep. That's why lossy Dolby Atmos is now more superior than Hi-Res due to proper mastering techniques. Hi-Res is of little value when there's a lot of compression and limiters applied to the file.


----------



## The Jester

Also a little odd that 16/44.1 titles are offered in “HiRes” at 24/96 and 24/192 which needs interpolation rather than a simpler conversion to 24/88.2 or 24/176.4 ?


----------



## alxw0w

The Jester said:


> Also a little odd that 16/44.1 titles are offered in “HiRes” at 24/96 and 24/192 which needs interpolation rather than a simpler conversion to 24/88.2 or 24/176.4 ?


Ah yes that's another problem.
When you have 96khz and 44.1khz version you can be sure that something is fishy.


----------



## 801evan

44.1 is there just for redbook standard. That's all.


----------



## adrianm

While I might change my mind on this, on first listen...Dave's not going anywhere.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

adrianm said:


> While I might change my mind on this, on first listen...Dave's not going anywhere.



I keep hearing that the dCS DAC is overly soft and doesn't have that attack and realism that DAVE has.  What is your take on this since you see demoing the dCS?


----------



## DJW50

GuiltyRocker said:


> I keep hearing that the dCS DAC is overly soft and doesn't have that attack and realism that DAVE has.  What is your take on this since you see demoing the dCS?


Me too, my DAVE saving fund is growing.


----------



## adrianm (Aug 18, 2022)

GuiltyRocker said:


> I keep hearing that the dCS DAC is overly soft and doesn't have that attack and realism that DAVE has.  What is your take on this since you see demoing the dCS?


That's my first impression as well unfortunately. It's a new unit, will let it "burn in" if that's a thing, and will try different settings, but it does seem overly smooth in comparison. For my tastes at least.
   After i'm done with the dac section, i'll move on to compare the full stack to Dave+ Oor.
Edit: DXD upsampling over DSD takes a bit of the smoothness away.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

adrianm said:


> That's my first impression as well unfortunately. It's a new unit, will let it "burn in" if that's a thing, and will try different settings, but it does seem overly smooth in comparison. For my tastes at least.
> After i'm done with the dac section, i'll move on to compare the full stack to Dave+ Oor.



Thanks for sharing.


----------



## adrianm

Battle of the giants!


----------



## kawhia

I have to say I am sceptical that there is much of a market for Lina. I’d rather buy Bartok plus Rossini clock, or Dave and Riviera AIC (as I have). The advantage is that these systems give you at least the same sound quality if not better and provide a high end two channel set up for active or passive speakers. Lina doesn’t convince me as a package, but that is just me.


----------



## zen87192

Love to hear your thoughts on the Dave/Oor/Hypsos combo...


----------



## adrianm (Aug 18, 2022)

zen87192 said:


> Love to hear your thoughts on the Dave/Oor/Hypsos combo...


For now it beats Lina + Oor/Hypsos. will gradually add the clock and amp to the Lina before doing a full side by side. Oor is the Dave of amps imo.
   What is remarkable is how close Dave and Lina sound to each other doing a quick A/B via the Oor. Using the right settings. Some of Lina's settings are just..bad


----------



## Ciggavelli

801evan said:


> 44.1 is there just for redbook standard. That's all.


Came in to say this.  You see this with Tidal vs Qobuz as well.  On Tidal, one album will be at 16/44, but then on Qobuz it will be at 24/48.


----------



## Reactcore

adrianm said:


> Battle of the giants!


Now i see then side by side..
Thats one giant volume knob😯


----------



## adrianm

Reactcore said:


> Now i see then side by side..
> Thats one giant volume knob😯


Doesn't feel as good as Oor's pot though.


----------



## Reactcore

adrianm said:


> Doesn't feel as good as Oor's pot though.


The bigger the expectations ..the bigger the (possible) disappointments😂


----------



## adrianm

Reactcore said:


> The bigger the expectations ..the bigger the (possible) disappointments😂


I'm a bit torn here, because I kinda like the Lina (dac+clock). If i'd never heard the Dave...


----------



## alxw0w

adrianm said:


> Edit: DXD upsampling over DSD takes a bit of the smoothness away.


No wonder  Exactly how DSD sounds. Soft and smooth.


----------



## adrianm (Aug 18, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> No wonder  Exactly how DSD sounds. Soft and smooth.


Unfortunately the Lina still remains a bit too smooth. It's not as bad as I expected, but I don't think it's something I could live with. I keep turning it up way above my normal listening levels in the hopes of getting more dynamics.


----------



## alxw0w (Aug 18, 2022)

adrianm said:


> Unfortunately the Lina still remains a bit too smooth. It's not as bad as I expected, but I don't think it's something I could live with. I keep turning it up way above my normal listening levels in the hopes of getting more dynamics.


Ah yes transients on chord gear are really something different. Once you heard it it's hard to go back.

What's intoxicating for me with Dave is that initial transient is extremely sharp and focused but rest of the tone is smooth, and rich. Exactly how real instruments sound.
No smearing, fake warm/smoothness, just pure power with initial crack of the tone and smooth trail, I'm loving it.
Actually after some time you don't think about it but when you start to compare with different gear it's so obvious that it's hard to go back, at least for me.

Ps. Funny thing happens with sabre based DACs, sound is at the same time soft on the edges but also sharp/edy/fatiguing, I don't know what is happening but I strongly prefer AKM based DACs for that matter.


----------



## Reactcore

adrianm said:


> Unfortunately the Lina still remains a bit too smooth. It's not as bad as I expected, but I don't think it's something I could live with. I keep turning it up way above my normal listening levels in the hopes of getting more dynamics.


Are you u using Dave with stock smps?
If you have a Mscaler.. try that with the Dcs


----------



## adrianm

Reactcore said:


> Are you u using Dave with stock smps?
> If you have a Mscaler.. try that with the Dcs


Yes, Dave is plugged into an Isotek Genesis One that's plugged into an Isotek Aquarius. The Lina stack is plugged into the Aquarius. So Dave has a bit of an advantage from the regenerator. I ditched my M-scaler for Hqplayer a while back. Way too much RF noise.
   Comparing Lina vs Dave vs Dave+ Hqp now, i might actually ditch Hqplayer as well and go back to solo Dave.


----------



## zen87192

Amazing what a DAVE can still do after all these years.... I listened to the Lina set up at CanJam London and also thought it was a bit too smooth (in the short time that I was able to listen to it).


----------



## alxw0w

zen87192 said:


> Amazing what a DAVE can still do after all these years.... I listened to the Lina set up at CanJam London and also thought it was a bit too smooth (in the short time that I was able to listen to it).


Even though I haven't heard Lina, I'm still sure nothing is going to sound like Dave. Nobody in the audio is doing what Rob is doing with his long interpolation filters.
And to my ears it's extremely important and vital for good sound.


----------



## adrianm (Aug 18, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> Ah yes transients on chord gear are really something different. Once you heard it it's hard to go back.
> 
> What's intoxicating for me with Dave is that initial transient is extremely sharp and focused but rest of the tone is smooth, and rich.


YESSS!


alxw0w said:


> Exactly how real instruments sound.
> No smearing, fake warm/smoothness, just pure power with initial crack of the tone and smooth trail, I'm loving it.
> Actually after some time you don't think about it but when you start to compare with different gear it's so obvious that it's hard to go back, at least for me.


When you add the clock to the Lina it really takes it up a notch, kinda like the M-scaler for Dave, but even more subtle. So absolutely terrible value, but everything gets a little better, a veil is lifted, and some things, like violin strings, sound better to me on the Lina + Clock.
    I swear i've heard a note or two that i've never heard on Dave before, however you lose clarity in other areas...so it might just be a tuning thing. Overall you might call it "tonally richer" in some areas of the FR.


alxw0w said:


> Even though I haven't heard Lina, I'm still sure nothing is going to sound like Dave.


Tbh, depending on the settings used, you can get them sounding 90% similar, even with CF on. It just can't replicate the transients. The smoothness is the issue for me. If you look past these 2 aspects, to put things in perspective, Lina +clock sounds closer to Dave than Dave does when using HQP.
    Overall, I think this kind of money is better spend on headphones, or something like the Aperio than a stack like the dCS. There's just no wow factor in there. There's just nuance differences. And the Lina can come out on top on some tracks.


----------



## alxw0w

adrianm said:


> YESSS!
> 
> When you add the clock to the Lina it really takes it up a notch, kinda like the M-scaler for Dave, but even more subtle. So absolutely terrible value, but everything gets a little better, a veil is lifted, and some things, like violin strings, sound better to me on the Lina + Clock.
> I swear i've heard a note or two that i've never heard on Dave before, however you lose clarity in other areas...so it might just be a tuning thing.
> ...


I said it before, aside from SQ (as I not heard it) Lina is very strange stack from design and price point side.
 Very strange move from dcs.


----------



## adrianm

alxw0w said:


> I said it before, aside from SQ (as I not heard it) Lina is very strange stack from design and price point side.
> Very strange move from dcs.


Well it does feel purposefully positioned in their range. With build quality and attention to detail like this, I refuse to believe there isn't more performance to be squeezed out. It's just that their holding it back until they release their next update in a few years time, so they can stay relevant with minimum investment.


----------



## kawhia (Aug 18, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> Very strange move from dcs.


My exact thoughts. 33k for a, admittedly well sounding, headphones only system. And in the end I am not even sure if it drives all hp (Susvara?) adequately?

I am no expert in the dCS line but you could get a Bartok with hp and Rossini clock for the same money. To me that is a more attractive package. Anyway, I am spamming the DAVE thread..


----------



## adrianm

kawhia said:


> My exact thoughts. 33k for a, admittedly well sounding, headphones only system. And in the end I am not even sure if it drives all hp (Susvara?) adequately?
> 
> I am no expert in the dCS line but you could get a Bartok with hp and Rossini clock for the same money. To me that is a more attractive package. Anyway, I am spamming the DAVE thread..


It won't. To be fair, it's the same dac, the same clock ,and the HP out of it is bad anyway, so you're better off getting an Oor with the normal Bartok. What you get is the software update 2-3 years and a less desirable form factor.
   I am curious to hear a Rossini, but i'm not sure if it actually fixed Lina/Bartok's shortcomings.


----------



## zen87192

Is a Chord Blu MK2 a good preposition these days as it has an inbuilt MScaler and currently sells for cheaper than a standalone MScaler (secondhand)? I was thinking of a demo with the latest Marantz CD60 Transport and was always thinking (in the back of my mind) about an Mscaler for my DAVE. I will also wait for the up and coming new Chroral MScaler but already know that I may need to sell one of my Kidneys to finance it.


----------



## adrianm

zen87192 said:


> Is a Chord Blu MK2 a good preposition these days as it has an inbuilt MScaler and currently sells for cheaper than a standalone MScaler (secondhand)? I was thinking of a demo with the latest Marantz CD60 Transport and was always thinking (in the back of my mind) about an Mscaler for my DAVE. I will also wait for the up and coming new Chroral MScaler but already know that I may need to sell one of my Kidneys to finance it.


Afaik it generates even more noise than the M-scaler. I found Dave worse in some regards with the M-scaler, and better in others (hence hqp)


----------



## miketlse

zen87192 said:


> Is a Chord Blu MK2 a good preposition these days as it has an inbuilt MScaler and currently sells for cheaper than a standalone MScaler (secondhand)? I was thinking of a demo with the latest Marantz CD60 Transport and was always thinking (in the back of my mind) about an Mscaler for my DAVE. I will also wait for the up and coming new Chroral MScaler but already know that I may need to sell one of my Kidneys to finance it.


[edited] I realise that you may have to respect commercial confidentiality, but what ballpark of prices are you being quoted for a second hand Blu2?


----------



## SteveHulk

adrianm said:


> That's my first impression as well unfortunately. It's a new unit, will let it "burn in" if that's a thing, and will try different settings, but it does seem overly smooth in comparison. For my tastes at least.
> After i'm done with the dac section, i'll move on to compare the full stack to Dave+ Oor.
> Edit: DXD upsampling over DSD takes a bit of the smoothness away.


"Burning in" - if there is such a thing - is very likely to make the sound even smoother, not less smooth.


----------



## zen87192

miketlse said:


> [edited] I realise that you may have to respect commercial confidentiality, but what ballpark of prices are you being quoted for a second hand Blu2?


2.5K


----------



## zen87192

adrianm said:


> Afaik it generates even more noise than the M-scaler. I found Dave worse in some regards with the M-scaler, and better in others (hence hqp)


Ah… OK. Steer clear of that then.


----------



## SteveHulk (Aug 18, 2022)

adrianm said:


> YESSS!
> 
> When you add the clock to the Lina it really takes it up a notch, kinda like the M-scaler for Dave, but even more subtle. So absolutely terrible value, but everything gets a little better, a veil is lifted, and some things, like violin strings, sound better to me on the Lina + Clock.
> I swear i've heard a note or two that i've never heard on Dave before, however you lose clarity in other areas...so it might just be a tuning thing. Overall you might call it "tonally richer" in some areas of the FR.
> ...


That's how I felt when listening to the dCS stack at Canjam London. No wow factor. At that price that's not cutting it.

The DAVE with the Farad3 has just amazing transient attack.

The suddenness sometimes makes me jump slightly even on recordings I have heard scores of times. Plus an incredible attention to detail.

"Just a Shame" by Talk Talk on 16/44.1... Oh my.


----------



## miketlse

zen87192 said:


> 2.5K


that is very cheap compared to the original price. 
I know that Bluray disc drives as inputs to Chord dacs sound great, so my assumption has been that such a Bluray drive connected via optical to MScaler would be a good way forward for individuals who still want to play physical discs.
However a Blu2 for just 2.5K would indeed be a cheaper option.


----------



## SteveHulk

miketlse said:


> that is very cheap compared to the original price.
> I know that Bluray disc drives as inputs to Chord dacs sound great, so my assumption has been that such a Bluray drive connected via optical to MScaler would be a good way forward for individuals who still want to play physical discs.
> However a Blu2 for just 2.5K would indeed be a cheaper option.


The Blu II has usb and spdif inputs so you can use it as an m scaler with other digital sources.

Might be an option that is cheaper than buying an m scaler.


----------



## miketlse

SteveHulk said:


> The Blu II has usb and spdif inputs so you can use it as an m scaler with other digital sources.
> 
> Might be an option that is cheaper than buying an m scaler.


Yes indeed.
There is at least one post (somewhere?) by @Rob Watts describing some of the Lessons Learnt from the Blu2 MScaler, and the extra filtering etc that he added when designing the standalone MScaler.
This means that for most users the MScaler is the improved design.

Just my own opinion, but when I compared USB input to optical input, it was clear that optical was closer to the original music performance.
So for me talk of usb or coaxial input is irrelevant.   

Otherwise I still think that the Blu2 could still be the cheaper option for some individuals who prefer to play physical CDs etc, rather than stream from online sources.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Why was the Blu2 discontinued?


----------



## jlbrach

miketlse said:


> that is very cheap compared to the original price.
> I know that Bluray disc drives as inputs to Chord dacs sound great, so my assumption has been that such a Bluray drive connected via optical to MScaler would be a good way forward for individuals who still want to play physical discs.
> However a Blu2 for just 2.5K would indeed be a cheaper option.


I have the blu2 and love it plus i love that it has the same form factor as the dave


----------



## jlbrach

GuiltyRocker said:


> Why was the Blu2 discontinued?


because the CD part of it was no longer valued


----------



## Triode User

GuiltyRocker said:


> Why was the Blu2 discontinued?


The cd mechanism used was discontinued by its manufacturer. (Answered above but a typo introduced a bit of ambiguity).


----------



## Somatic

Using the Dave in DAC mode can we still use crossfeed? I dont see an option to set this up. Thanks.


----------



## 801evan

Somatic said:


> Using the Dave in DAC mode can we still use crossfeed? I dont see an option to set this up. Thanks.


Crossfeed only works on HP out.


----------



## adrianm (Aug 19, 2022)

801evan said:


> Crossfeed only works on HP out.


That's wrong, it also works with an external amp, and even speakers if you don't disable it.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/post-14048894


----------



## genefruit

Somatic said:


> Using the Dave in DAC mode can we still use crossfeed? I dont see an option to set this up. Thanks.


If you insert jack into the 6.3mm and set the crossfeed to the setting you desire, then remove it to return to DAC mode, it will retain the crossfeed settings for the XLR & RCA outputs.


----------



## 801evan

genefruit said:


> If you insert jack into the 6.3mm and set the crossfeed to the setting you desire, then remove it to return to DAC mode, it will retain the crossfeed settings for the XLR & RCA outputs.


Whuttt. Since the options gets lost I thought it wouldn't stick to line outs. 😮


----------



## Somatic

Thanks everyone.


----------



## kawhia (Aug 19, 2022)

It is not a bug, it is a feature 😉

PS: on my 30 year old Dynaudio speakers I don’t even bother to disable CF 2 when listening to two channel. It doesn’t bother me.


----------



## pichler

If I remember correctly I read in a post by RW that it was his (little) ""mistake"".

Right now I'm reading this thread from page 1, which I haven't done before, at least so carefully, especially now that I've had Dave for 3 months: very interesting, it's history now ...... I'm on page 60. Mine curiosity
and of those who wrote is going up.


----------



## adrianm

Day 2 update:
 Started listening without the Genesis One. Without the power regenerator, the Lina + Clock combo kind of walks all over solo Dave. As it should for the price difference. It also has no problem with my washer and dryer running, as opposed to Dave. Threw the Genesis back in and it's much closer, even got a streamer to make sure my pc as a source isn't the bottleneck. Didn't make any considerable difference considering the things I had in place already.
   I'm going to give it a weekend, but I'm actually starting to consider switching.


----------



## fiiom11pro

GuiltyRocker said:


> I keep hearing that the dCS DAC is overly soft and doesn't have that attack and realism that DAVE has.  What is your take on this since you see demoing the dCS?




quite agree with this having demoed dcs. they're smooth sounding while dave has that agrresiveness, you mentioned attack. Dave will make your music alive. Dcs is lush, mellow sounding dac.. Both are good sounding to me. if I have the money ill get both.


----------



## Icenine2

What setting do you use: PCM or DSD? I was leaving it on DSD+ so I didn't have to switch listening to DSF files but as I posted earlier I don't think the SACD files from the MFSL reissues (Allman brothers Fillmore, Eat a Peach specifically) sound as good and the bass is definitely thinner. Aside from a Jaco Pastorius DSD issue I don't think I have any DSD that sounds better than my  original CD's. I've got Keith Jarrett Sun Bear off SACD ripped to DSF and the CD. Everyone was raving about the SACD but I cannot hear any difference.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

fiiom11pro said:


> quite agree with this having demoed dcs. they're smooth sounding while dave has that agrresiveness, you mentioned attack. Dave will make your music alive. Dcs is lush, mellow sounding dac.. Both are good sounding to me. if I have the money ill get both.



I like that aggressive attack on Chord DACs, i don't want an overly-soft blanket that covers all the music.  I'll stick with Rob Watts.


----------



## Reactcore

GuiltyRocker said:


> I like that aggressive attack on Chord DACs, i don't want an overly-soft blanket that covers all the music.  I'll stick with Rob Watts.



Dave is only agressive when a track calls for it

Qutest en Mojo1 are more polite overall


----------



## adrianm

GuiltyRocker said:


> I like that aggressive attack on Chord DACs, i don't want an overly-soft blanket that covers all the music.  I'll stick with Rob Watts.


That's what I went in expecting as well, but it's not what I found sadly. While the attack is faster on Dave, the difference is like getting hit by Jake Paul vs Mike Tyson. Have to call a spade a spade here...Besides the transient response, the Lina+ clock combo does take everything else up a notch. 
   My initial impression was that it feels slightly veiled in comparison, clock fixed that. It might be a hair slower than Dave, but it's overall slightly more detailed, both on a macro and a micro level. 
     The way it positions  bass notes in space...how is this a thing lol. Haven't heard this even from Dave + M-scaler. It also has more layers and nuances across the FR. Call it tonal color? Without overstating things, It sounds a bit like going from grayscale to an early color tv.
     The headphone amp is a joke for the price, the Oor mops the floor with it. I wouldn't use it if I got it for free. Been burned with Dave's amp before.  But the dac+ clock combo is really something. Build quality also feels next level. They do take you to the cleaners though, it's terrible value compared to Dave. Then again, it depends on how much you spend to improve it.


----------



## SteveHulk

In my years of experience I have noticed how improving clocking, reducing vibration, and shielding against rf noise have all had a consistent effect on bass reproduction.

The effect described above of stabilising and defining the bass by the addition of the clock to the Lina stack is a case in point, directly mirrored by the effect (amongst others) when I later introduced the dCS Verona clock to my own main system stack.

Like Chord, dCS pay great attention to casework. This is very important to allow the electronics to perform at their best. 

And we are all finding out how rf noise elimination drastically improves the sound quality of digital systems.

In terms of the dCS system, I don't think the DAC and the clock should really be considered separately when thinking about its ultimate sound quality. I know that I'd never want to listen to my main system without the Verona in place.

If comparison with stock DAVE is made on this basis then DAVE owners have a lot of money to tinker with before having to think about selling up and coughing up a huge lump of cash for dCS DAC + clock.

Another point relating to the Lina clock and the Verona is that the Verona synchronises three other pieces of kit in my stack, so being a standalone item makes some sense.

Given that the Lina clock only seems to connect to the DAC, I wonder why it has to be externalised in its own expensive case and with its own expensive power supply. Is it just a cash grab?


----------



## adrianm (Aug 20, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> Given that the Lina clock only seems to connect to the DAC, I wonder why it has to be externalised in its own expensive case and with its own expensive power supply. Is it just a cash grab?


The dac has 2 word clock inputs, so i assume it syncs the dac and streamer. I also notice even the Lina dac has temperature monitoring with .1 degrees celsius precision. I imagine the Clock itself is also thermocompensated.
    Either way, it feels a bit like a cash grab, I'm sure it could have been done cheaper. The separate cases argument falls flat once they put out something like the Vivaldi (Apex) One.


----------



## alxw0w

adrianm said:


> The dac has 2 word clock inputs, so i assume it syncs the dac and streamer. I also notice even the Lina dac has temperature monitoring up to .1 degrees celsius. I imagine the Clock itself is also thermocompensated.
> Either way, it feels a bit like a cash grab, I'm sure it could have been done cheaper. The separate cases argument falls flat once they put out something like the Vivaldi (Apex) One.


It's two inputs for different clock rates, for 44,1 and 48 ans their multiples.
Lina clock should also have two outputs.

Some clocks offer just 10mhz output and then it's has to be divided somehow to get 44,1 or 48... Which never is going to be  exact.


----------



## adrianm (Aug 20, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> It's two inputs for different clock rates, for 44,1 and 48 ans their multiples.
> Lina clock should also have two outputs.
> 
> Some clocks offer just 10mhz output and then it's has to be divided somehow to get 44,1 or 48... Which never is going to be  exact.


Yeah it actually shows that in the Menu, the USB (guess it's good enough to be used internally) and network rate both are at 48. Next track it switched to 44.1. The clicks are mildly annoying.
   Switching the clock off, USB remains at 48 and network is at 44.1 (for that particular track).


----------



## Somatic (Aug 20, 2022)

adrianm said:


> That's what I went in expecting as well, but it's not what I found sadly. While the attack is faster on Dave, the difference is like getting hit by Jake Paul vs Mike Tyson. Have to call a spade a spade here...Besides the transient response, the Lina+ clock combo does take everything else up a notch.
> My initial impression was that it feels slightly veiled in comparison, clock fixed that. It might be a hair slower than Dave, but it's overall slightly more detailed, both on a macro and a micro level.
> The way it positions  bass notes in space...how is this a thing lol. Haven't heard this even from Dave + M-scaler. It also has more layers and nuances across the FR. Call it tonal color? Without overstating things, It sounds a bit like going from grayscale to an early color tv.
> The headphone amp is a joke for the price, the Oor mops the floor with it. I wouldn't use it if I got it for free. Been burned with Dave's amp before.  But the dac+ clock combo is really something. Build quality also feels next level. They do take you to the cleaners though, it's terrible value compared to Dave. Then again, it depends on how much you spend to improve it.


I know you feel duped sticking with Dave headphone amp for so long but I’m amazed how much the headphone amp improved with the added Farad3. Digs a lot deeper, extracts more micro detail. I liked the Ferrum but it does add its own color which depends if that is what one wants. Mids are more sultry. Treble is darker. Soundstage decreases a little bit compared to the Dave + Farad3. Bass seemed lass defined for me. I remember listening to the headphone out of the stock Dave with Susvara and they sounded flat, lifeless, thin and etched in treble. I’m amazed how much performance one gets with the Farad3. Very curious how much different it sounds with your power treatment.


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> I know you feel duped sticking with Dave headphone amp for so long but I’m amazed how much the headphone amp improved with the added Farad3. Digs a lot deeper, extracts more micro detail. I liked the Ferrum but it does add its own color which depends if that is what one wants. Mids are more sultry. Treble is darker. Soundstage finishes a little bit compared to the Dave + Farad3. Bass seemed lass defined for me. I remember listening to the headphone out of the stock Dave with Susvara and they sounded flat, lifeless, thin and etched in treble. I’m amazed how much performance one gets with the Farad3. Very curious how much different it sounds with your power treatment.


      I hope you did get to hear the Oor in balanced mode before you sell it. Single ended is close enough to Dave to not be worth it. I got improvements when I added the Isotek Sirius,  when I replaced it with the Aquarius, and when i added the Genesis One on top of the Aquarius. Different magnitudes. However it still doesn't come close to Oor in balanced mode imo. FWIW the 10k Lina Amp is not that far off what what direct Dave sounds like with the power stuff.

       There's enough difference with and without the power regenerator that the Lina without a clock was clearly better. Yesterday I woke up, unplugged Dave from the Genesis and started listening with both it and Lina out of the Aquarius. Halfway through the day, with work and meetings, I completely forgot about this.
        I went from..my initial posts to...ok, I'm definitely getting rid of Dave. It was hours later that I realized it, plugged Dave back in and soundstage increased dramatically, finer details were back, bass had more oomph. HOWEVER. I even went back to my dealer to get a separate streamer, some other cables, to see if it can narrow the gap. Not really.
  I'm not seeing that color in the Ferrum with my current rca cables, but i did notice it the first time around with xlr cables. But then again, I don't know how the Farad changes the sound signature.
   What I do know, is I didn't like another custom psu I've listened to with headphones, even though it was a clear improvement with a high end speaker system.


----------



## 801evan

Somatic said:


> I know you feel duped sticking with Dave headphone amp for so long but I’m amazed how much the headphone amp improved with the added Farad3. Digs a lot deeper, extracts more micro detail. I liked the Ferrum but it does add its own color which depends if that is what one wants. Mids are more sultry. Treble is darker. Soundstage decreases a little bit compared to the Dave + Farad3. Bass seemed lass defined for me. I remember listening to the headphone out of the stock Dave with Susvara and they sounded flat, lifeless, thin and etched in treble. I’m amazed how much performance one gets with the Farad3. Very curious how much different it sounds with your power treatment.


Your criticism on the OOR is how I feel is the inadequacy of the Hypsos. I also hear the haze on its dc cable that is unacceptable for me. Glad to hear reports on the HP out performance of the Dave with upgrade psus. Exactly what I've been saying about with amplifiers. It's all about the psus. Not power quantity.


----------



## Somatic

adrianm said:


> I hope you did get to hear the Oor in balanced mode before you sell it. Single ended is close enough to Dave to not be worth it. I got improvements when I added the Isotek Sirius,  when I replaced it with the Aquarius, and when i added the Genesis One on top of the Aquarius. Different magnitudes. However it still doesn't come close to Oor in balanced mode imo. FWIW the 10k Lina Amp is not that far off what what direct Dave sounds like with the power stuff.
> 
> There's enough difference with and without the power regenerator that the Lina without a clock was clearly better. Yesterday I woke up, unplugged Dave from the Genesis and started listening with both it and Lina out of the Aquarius. Halfway through the day, with work and meetings, I completely forgot about this.
> I went from..my initial posts to...ok, I'm definitely getting rid of Dave. It was hours later that I realized it, plugged Dave back in and soundstage increased dramatically, finer details were back, bass had more oomph. HOWEVER. I even went back to my dealer to get a separate streamer, some other cables, to see if it can narrow the gap. Not really.
> ...


Yea I tried the balanced XLR. It’s a good amp for sure.


----------



## adrianm

801evan said:


> Your criticism on the OOR is how I feel is the inadequacy of the Hypsos. I also hear the haze on its dc cable that is unacceptable for me. Glad to hear reports on the HP out performance of the Dave with upgrade psus. Exactly what I've been saying about with amplifiers. It's all about the psus. Not power quantity.


You definitely need to capitalize on this and start your own company. Maybe show dCS how to build a proper amp


----------



## Somatic

801evan said:


> Your criticism on the OOR is how I feel is the inadequacy of the Hypsos. I also hear the haze on its dc cable that is unacceptable for me. Glad to hear reports on the HP out performance of the Dave with upgrade psus. Exactly what I've been saying about with amplifiers. It's all about the psus. Not power quantity.


Have you heard the AHB2? You might like it. Very transparent.


----------



## Somatic

ray-dude said:


> I'm about 6 hours into auditioning an AHB2 with DAVE and B&W 802d3's (vs Classe CT-2300 amp + Oppo HA-1)
> 
> I'm still jumping back and forth between various configs, but obviously A/B testing is challenging when you have to swap cables around between takes.  I have only recently swapped out my Oppo HA-1 for a DAVE, so there is that untangling I'm doing at the same time.
> 
> ...


I thought you can only use XLRs to connect the Dave to the AHB2? Are you using RCAs?


----------



## GuiltyRocker

These guys compared dCS Bartok to Mola Mola and the Mola apparently sounded much better, then Hans Beekheuzen compared the Mola Mola to the DAVE and the DAVE sounded much better.   Hhhmmmmmmmm


----------



## Somatic

GuiltyRocker said:


> These guys compared dCS Bartok to Mola Mola and the Mola apparently sounded much better, then Hans Beekheuzen compared the Mola Mola to the DAVE and the DAVE sounded much better.   Hhhmmmmmmmm



Well it’s all subjective.


----------



## max232

GuiltyRocker said:


> Hans Beekheuzen


Hans Beekheuzen looks like a man who has hair growing out of his ear holes.


----------



## Somatic

max232 said:


> Hans Beekheuzen looks like a man who has hair growing out of his ear holes.


I’m subscribed. Seems like a good guy and gets technical with reviews.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Somatic said:


> Well it’s all subjective.



True.


----------



## 801evan (Aug 20, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Have you heard the AHB2? You might like it. Very transparent.


1. Heard it doesnt dance well with many other HPs...only the Susvara. And it still didn't give bass on the susvara for them...and it has what I think is artificially wide soundstage with a lack of lower harmonics retrieval...but then these owners have a poor signal chain so it can be attributed to that too. The Susvara has better bass in everything vs the LCD4 on the Dave for me. Something an ahb2 owner wouldn't say, or any other amp owner would say as well especially in the <2w realm.

2. People have been unloading the ahb2. Ironically it's the loud mouths on the susvara thread and moving towards lesser powered amps with better psus... 😉😉😉

3. Even Goldensound is selling his ahb2 for a <2.5w amp to drive the Susvara. And he said he didn't like the Stealth with the ahb2 (not that it's a fairly accurate assessment but the Stealth is my main HP now)

4. I hereby conclude to sticking to Chord's internal amp and my line conditioner that can give it a deep sweet bass for both Susvara and Stealth, LCD 4, etc. I've tried a few of my line conditioner builds and the best one for me seemingly took out the 'energy', 'detail' that people hear, which really is distortion, and makes it really smooth, extra deep and wide and calming. While I haven't heard any of the dCS, I think they are doing something right (coz of the smoothness) but seems to lack speed and noise filtering from my line conditioner (to bring out more faithful lower harmonics) hence why it is not exactly convincing when people demo it. That's why I like the combo of the line conditioner and the Dave coz theres a sweet combination of speed + calm + deepness that is very end game for me and this can be seen on how it renders female vocals that would be very saccharine and making it very human, full and realistic. The attack and entry of each word the singer gives is one of the most realistic presentation. Coz it's not an 'attack' or 'transient' quality in a typical way even on TOTL but simply a very faithful render. When I think I have gone too overboard where I lose the character of the Dave, going 'less' just brings in more of that noise distortion and nothing else. It's that sound that seems to make the amp sound labored in driving the headphone since you have tried the Dave stock vs farad3.


----------



## number1sixerfan

adrianm said:


> That's what I went in expecting as well, but it's not what I found sadly. While the attack is faster on Dave, the difference is like getting hit by Jake Paul vs Mike Tyson. Have to call a spade a spade here...Besides the transient response, the Lina+ clock combo does take everything else up a notch.
> My initial impression was that it feels slightly veiled in comparison, clock fixed that. It might be a hair slower than Dave, but it's overall slightly more detailed, both on a macro and a micro level.
> The way it positions  bass notes in space...how is this a thing lol. Haven't heard this even from Dave + M-scaler. It also has more layers and nuances across the FR. Call it tonal color? Without overstating things, It sounds a bit like going from grayscale to an early color tv.
> The headphone amp is a joke for the price, the Oor mops the floor with it. I wouldn't use it if I got it for free. Been burned with Dave's amp before.  But the dac+ clock combo is really something. Build quality also feels next level. They do take you to the cleaners though, it's terrible value compared to Dave. Then again, it depends on how much you spend to improve it.



Enjoying reading your impressions. How long do you have the Lina? And I know tweaked the system a few times, but I also think it takes a bit of time to really understand the nuances between gear when coming from something well familiarized with, especially if you love said gear. In any event, I appreciate the follow up impressions and candid points on where the Lina + clock seem to be better. Refreshing to see in this thread.



Somatic said:


> Well it’s all subjective.



Exactly.


----------



## kawhia (Aug 20, 2022)

Sorry but I find this video questionable. „Night and day“, „jaw dropping“ etc. come on that is BS. The differences in this price range are small. Of course you can have a preference for different sound etc, then there is system matching.
In that respect I find Darko more honest and each time I have to laugh when he ridicules other reviewers with night and day, it blows it out of the water etc 😃


----------



## adrianm

number1sixerfan said:


> Enjoying reading your impressions. How long do you have the Lina? And I know tweaked the system a few times, but I also think it takes a bit of time to really understand the nuances between gear when coming from something well familiarized with, especially if you love said gear. In any event, I appreciate the follow up impressions and candid points on where the Lina + clock seem to be better. Refreshing to see in this thread.


Thanks, I've refrained writing a more detailed review so far because it's been a bit of a roller coaster and I'd rather wait so I can offer a more objective conclusion. I still have until Monday , so about 4-5 days in total. 
    Took me a day or so after adding the clock to fully appreciate what's going on. And maybe get over my own biases.  Right now I'm the acceptance phase of grieving for my  bank account.
   Let me know if would like me to A/B anything.


----------



## max232

Somatic said:


> I’m subscribed. Seems like a good guy and gets technical with reviews.


Me too. You can't judge a book by looking at its cover.😉😉


----------



## zen87192

Is anyone running a pair of *very small*, but high quality speakers, from their DAVE? There sometimes comes a time when one just needs to pump some sound though speakers rather than Headphones. I'd like a pair of small speakers on my small music cupboard and would like some suggestions as to which ones, be it active or passive. 🍻


----------



## miketlse

zen87192 said:


> Is anyone running a pair of *very small*, but high quality speakers, from their DAVE? There sometimes comes a time when one just needs to pump some sound though speakers rather than Headphones. I'd like a pair of small speakers on my small music cupboard and would like some suggestions as to which ones, be it active or passive. 🍻


Omega speakers are well liked, but are they too physically large for your needs?


----------



## iDesign

zen87192 said:


> Is anyone running a pair of *very small*, but high quality speakers, from their DAVE? There sometimes comes a time when one just needs to pump some sound though speakers rather than Headphones. I'd like a pair of small speakers on my small music cupboard and would like some suggestions as to which ones, be it active or passive. 🍻


https://omegaloudspeakers.com/products/compact-alnico-monitor?variant=32172350732


----------



## Darkliner

zen87192 said:


> Is anyone running a pair of *very small*, but high quality speakers, from their DAVE? There sometimes comes a time when one just needs to pump some sound though speakers rather than Headphones. I'd like a pair of small speakers on my small music cupboard and would like some suggestions as to which ones, be it active or passive. 🍻


https://www.wilsonaudio.com/products/tunetot/tunetot.
Best small speakers I have heard that work amazingly well in compromised spaces.  They are passive though.


----------



## adrianm (Aug 24, 2022)

Not much for writing reviews, I mostly listen for myself, but I know a lot of other people might be interested in this so here are some impressions of  the Lina stack vs Dave + Oor, from my 4-5 days with them.

First, to answer the burning question : Is Lina better? the Amp is so...not great, that I would take Dave + Oor over the full Lina stack. It sounded really small in all dimensions. Hope the dCS staff get a chance to listen to the Lina on a proper amp!  The volume pot was also rubbing against internal walls when turned. Hope that was a manufacturing defect.

     If we're talking *dac+clock vs Dave, then yes, it's better*. By quite some margin. More than Dave vs TT2. At least in my system. However I won't cop out and say IMHO, because, the difference is pretty stark and I think, biases aside, most people will objectively agree. I also have no particular preference for the sound signature.

  Over the years I developed a fool proof method of differentiating between what dac sounds better, and not just different : " When there's a lot of stuff going on in a track, how much stuff can you hear and how easily?" Easy. On a track where there's not much going on, the delta is smaller or nonexistent.
     It's also easier to hear more stuff on a lean sounding dac/amp. Only in this case Dave was leaner AND less transparent. It's a lot easier to imagine lean bass than a lean treble or midrange, but...it is what it is. More nuances across the FR.  Is it coloration? That changes the sound, doesn't add notes and texture. Certainly not all over.
   I've also added another method during my time with Lina : counting the times I went "Holy crap" out loud. 4-5 times a day. Which hasn't happened since I first got Dave, not even with the M-scaler.

   I didn't like it at first, doing 30 second A/B's. Dave seemed (c)leaner, faster, punchier, with bass reaching down deeper. Lina seemed veiled and sluggish. However, adding the clock, things changed pretty dramatically, to the point where I'm sure this is by design. I wouldn't buy it without the clock, so all further impressions are after adding it.
        Lina sounded bigger, denser, more 3d, especially with Expanse, which I also hated at first, using normal CF to compare to Dave's CF. Once I stopped doing short A/B's , Lina sounded more natural. Think THX amps like HPA4 vs Ferrum Oor. Reverb also sounded more natural using Expanse.  Every time you're used to something, the new contender sounds off.

    The sound signature is considerably more refined, with more tonal color, everything is a bit more detailed, from strings and bass notes, to the point where i've listened to some Lori McKenna songs 100 times and i never realized she had a backup singer. Yes, really. To be fair, I listen to music while I work, read, and do stuff at my pc. I don't sit on an Eames chair smoking cigars and drinking whiskey. So I am distracted. Going back to Dave, if I focus and "squint" I can hear MOST of the same stuff, but Lina hits you in the face with both micro and macro detail, while also sounding more natural and musical. Nifty trick.





Going back to "hearing more stuff more easily, in the "Forever Autumn" test track off this album, you can much more easily follow at least 1-2 more instruments than you can on Dave. And I mean follow every note, not just <insert drums here>. With Dave, some instruments take front stage at different times, while others fade into the background more or less. Almost like it runs out of breath. Lina seems to keep more stuff into focus more easily. I really thought after comparing Dave to TT2, this is where it ends. Apparently not.
    And yes, I got rid of the M-scaler, but it doesn't close the gap. I've also decided to ditch Hqplayer during this comparison, as 3way Dave, Dave +HQP,Lina comparisons always resulted in the same thing, Timbre was much much better on Lina when using HQP on Dave. Also lost some clarity with HQP. This was a tradeoff I was comfortable with before adding the Oor, but since i no longer need the soundstage from HQP, back to solo Dave for me. At least this was trading blows, even winning in transient response.
   I initially thought Dave also had better PRAT, but on some Billie Eilish tracks, Lina was clearly more agile with starting and stopping everything in a split second.
  It sometimes felt slower, sometimes faster. BUT it varied depending on the track. Which was very curious to me. I realized, Dave felt constantly fast, but Lina offered more variance according to the track. A bit more "elastic".
   Same thing with bass. Sometimes it hit like a truck with Dave, and I thought, ok, it has better bass. Until, on some tracks , Lina hit  deeper, while also placing the bass in space more precisely.  Something I really haven't heard before. I soon realized it was the same thing as above, it offered more variance according to the track. To me this is Dave's biggest strength, and I feel like it out-Daves Dave here.

    It might seem like I'm jumping off the bandwagon and getting a Lina, and I might eventually, but at  more than twice Dave's price for the combo...I wouldn't lose any sleep over not "upgrading. And I say this as someone who has literally not slept after hearing Dave, until I got it.
       At this level of SQ, Dave's already more than good enough, and objectively speaking, the differences probably range from 10 to 20% depending on the track. However, the intangibles also kick in: It's an all in...two,  saves you a bunch of stuff that Dave actually needs to sound good, it's upgrade-able, and it looks good, which counts for more than it should. So it's tempting.
    What gives me pause is how much the Oor and Lina Amp make or break the stack. Clearly money might be better spent on an amp or headphones themselves, but I do have a thing for source gear. And while _you could _add Innuos Statements, Taiko's, ferrited cables, new M-scalers, anti vibration treatments, custom PSU's , and sprinkle some holy water on Dave to get it to sound close, I doubt it will actually change so much that it's  the same, not to mention better. And you'd also spend at least as much for a very diy looking solution. Which might appeal to individual tastes, to be fair.

*For some context :* I listen with the Meze Elites, using Dave out my pc via SRC-DX and Dc blocks. For the purpose of the review i also got a 3d Lab Platinum streamer. Didn't change the results in any meaningful way.
     Lina + clock were plugged in my Isotek Aquarius power conditioner, while Dave was plugged into the Genesis One power regenerator, which is plugged into the Aquarius. Headphone amps were plugged into the wall, as i found even the high current slots affected performance.
     Without the regenerator, Lina+ Clock kinda walked all over Dave. Without the clock and Dave without regenerator...none were great, for different reasons, but I'd probably take solo Dave, as Lina just seems veiled without the clock.


----------



## Frankie D

adrianm said:


> Not much for writing reviews, I mostly listen for myself, but I know a lot of other people might be interested in this so here are some impressions of  the Lina stack vs Dave + Oor, from my 4-5 days with them.
> 
> First, to answer the burning question : Is Lina better? the Amp is so...not great, that I would take Dave + Oor over the full Lina stack. It sounded really small in all dimensions. Hope the dCS staff get a chance to listen to the Lina on a proper amp!  The volume pot was also rubbing against internal walls when turned. Hope that was a manufacturing defect.
> 
> ...


Great review.  Tks.


----------



## Reactcore

adrianm said:


> *For some context :* I listen with the Meze Elites, using Dave out my pc via SRC-DX and Dc blocks.


Have you also tried Opto DX between Dave and Mscaler when u had it?

I find the scaler its best with all sides optical
Even toslink out on limited 192k (1/4M taps)


----------



## Frankie D

GuiltyRocker said:


> These guys compared dCS Bartok to Mola Mola and the Mola apparently sounded much better, then Hans Beekheuzen compared the Mola Mola to the DAVE and the DAVE sounded much better.   Hhhmmmmmmmm



Well, GTT Audio is the US Distributor of Mola Mola.  Might still be great, but I am not sure this is the review to use.


----------



## adrianm

Reactcore said:


> Have you also tried Opto DX between Dave and Mscaler when u had it?
> 
> I find the scaler its best with all sides optical
> Even toslink out on limited 192k (1/4M taps)


I've used the M-scaler on battery + optical the whole time, as I hated it plugged in.  I had the Opto-Dx on order, but cancelled it last minute. I just had a visceral reaction of "i'm done with all these cables and crap". Dan told me I'd still need a battery on at least one of the sides to get the best results and it kind of defeated the purpose for me, just like Rob said about the Opto-dx. I've also tried Farad  and multiple streamers. After getting the SRC-DX my setup was : Pc plugged into power conditioner (must have)->Jitterbug->Intona Usb Isolator-> SRC-DX-D.C blocks. The Intona actually made a considerable difference, but I returned it because all that crap was triggering my ocd. I'm still considering the Monoprice Slimrun Optical-Usb but..another PSU, another 10m of cable...


----------



## adrianm

Frankie D said:


> Well, GTT Audio is the US Distributor of Mola Mola.  Might still be great, but I am not sure this is the review to use.


my tldr on the Mola Mola is, Darko said it makes the Bartok sound veiled. Fair enough, As far as i know that uses different filters from Lina, and sounds "rounder", less bite. However even the Lina does without the clock. For me the selling point of Lina is Expanse for Headphone use. A/B'ing Dave and Lina with normal crossfeed, i'm not sure i'd bother getting it. 
   Afaik the Tambaqui has no such feature, so it might be fine for speaker use, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over not having heard it.


----------



## Reactcore

adrianm said:


> I've used the M-scaler on battery + optical the whole time, as I hated it plugged in.


I assume that was optical in and dual coax out? For me that gives only few% benefit.
Its when all sides are isolated it suddenly matters


----------



## adrianm

Reactcore said:


> I assume that was optical in and dual coax out? For me that gives only few% benefit.
> Its when all sides are isolated it suddenly matters


Yeah, that's true, I've ended up preferring Hqp after a few tries though. When the Sync Li filter came out, that sounded 90% like the M-scaler to me. I still ended up always using Sync-L or Sync-Mx. And now back to solo Dave.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

adrianm said:


> my tldr on the Mola Mola is, Darko said it makes the Bartok sound veiled. Fair enough, As far as i know that uses different filters from Lina, and sounds "rounder", less bite. However even the Lina does without the clock. For me the selling point of Lina is Expanse for Headphone use. A/B'ing Dave and Lina with normal crossfeed, i'm not sure i'd bother getting it.
> Afaik the Tambaqui has no such feature, so it might be fine for speaker use, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over not having heard it.


I wonder what that clock is doing to the sound, it seems you really like the effect that it has.  Maybe Chord should look into these external clocks, perhaps as part of the next M Scaler that is being developed.  A lot of people say that the weakness of Chord DACs are the power supplies.


----------



## adrianm

GuiltyRocker said:


> I wonder what that clock is doing to the sound, it seems you really like the effect that it has.  Maybe Chord should look into these external clocks, perhaps as part of the next M Scaler that is being developed.  A lot of people say that the weakness of Chord DACs are the power supplies.


 Those people are 100% correct. I guess Dave's starting to show his age as well. 
  Mostly likely it's due to jitter reduction, and the streamer and dac being synced up. But that's true without the clock as well. While  It doesn't change the sound signature at all, it makes everything better. It's more subtle than the M-scaler or Hqp exploding the soundstage though. 
   I honestly think it sounds worse on purpose just so they can sell you another box, but hey...Even with Dave you have to go chasing for improvements and it's not as easy as ..take my money. I did like the fact that even the dac has precise real time temperature monitoring. A lot of attention to detail clearly went into it.
     Which is why It's a bit perplexing to see/hear the Amp volume knob grinding against the inside. Feels like the Amp was outsourced somewhere else.


----------



## miketlse

GuiltyRocker said:


> I wonder what that clock is doing to the sound, it seems you really like the effect that it has.  Maybe Chord should look into these external clocks, perhaps as part of the next M Scaler that is being developed.  A lot of people say that the weakness of Chord DACs are the power supplies.


Rob wasn't very keen on them earlier today https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/post-17110047


----------



## adrianm

miketlse said:


> Rob wasn't very keen on them earlier today https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/post-17110047


While I agree on them selling another box, Lina has a built in up sampler and streamer, which is a capital sin according to Rob, and sounds great. With Dave you have the pleasure of buying 3-4 additional boxes + power supplies and fancy cables. Only one from them, but I see no difference. Looking forward to seeing the new M-scaler's price.
   I, for one am over blanket statements. I care about the end result. People who get paid to develop the product can worry about the rest. I feel like Chord owes me a salary for the year's I've spent tinkering to optimize it.
    There's no doubt in my mind dCS are as opportunistic as can be. They sell a 100k dac after all. I am, however, sure it sounds much better than Rossini, which probably sounds better than Lina. I'm also 90% sure the sound quality upgrade is one download (that they won't give you) away.
   Chord, on the other hand, seems to ride the coat tails of Rob's R&D and cut corners in the engineering department. Pick your poison.
   It's also clear that there's more than one way to skin a cat. While Dave does have a "unique" sound signature, its strength does seem to come at the expense of...almost everything else.
    Because while the approach may differ, and it might not be accomplished as elegantly, or on the cheap, the competition is finding ways to catch up or surpass it in many other areas.


----------



## maxh22

I’m using a Siltech Double Crown power cable and although it’s a “clone”of the original it sounds just like how the original is described in various reviews. It adds much needed body to Dave, increased holographics, analog flow, and super accurate timbre reproduction, it just might be an end game power cable… I have no desire to purchase an aftermarket power supply like the farad or the various Sean Jacob's PSUs. In fact, I’d be willing to wager it comes dangerously close to those aftermarket power supply’s for a fraction of the price ($300). Might be the best value in high end audio especially for those who want a huge improvement in sound without spending an arm and a leg and ofcourse you are not invalidating your warranty either. Just wanted to share this for the more budget oriented Dave owners looking for a huge upgrade 😉


----------



## GuiltyRocker

adrianm said:


> Those people are 100% correct. I guess Dave's starting to show his age as well.
> Mostly likely it's due to jitter reduction, and the streamer and dac being synced up. But that's true without the clock as well. While  It doesn't change the sound signature at all, it makes everything better. It's more subtle than the M-scaler or Hqp exploding the soundstage though.
> I honestly think it sounds worse on purpose just so they can sell you another box, but hey...Even with Dave you have to go chasing for improvements and it's not as easy as ..take my money. I did like the fact that even the dac has precise real time temperature monitoring. A lot of attention to detail clearly went into it.
> Which is why It's a bit perplexing to see/hear the Amp volume knob grinding against the inside. Feels like the Amp was outsourced somewhere else.


It's all taste in the end, Golden Sound did not like the Bartok at all and that is supposed to be better than the Lina, in fact, I have read a few people that didn't like the Bartok, too smooth and blankets things.  It may be that the DAVE is not to your liking, I heard the dCS Rossini stack with Mágico very expensive speakers and I was not impressed at all.  To me it sounded overly smooth and I felt it covered my details, I like the Qutest with M Scaler better, but that's just me, I find after listening to a ton of DACs that I like what Rob does.  No offense.


----------



## Somatic

maxh22 said:


> I’m using a Siltech Double Crown power cable and although it’s a “clone”of the original it sounds just like how the original is described in various reviews. It adds much needed body to Dave, increased holographics, analog flow, and super accurate timbre reproduction, it just might be an end game power cable… I have no desire to purchase an aftermarket power supply like the farad or the various Sean Jacob's PSUs. In fact, I’d be willing to wager it comes dangerously close to those aftermarket power supply’s for a fraction of the price ($300). Might be the best value in high end audio especially for those who want a huge improvement in sound without spending an arm and a leg and ofcourse you are not invalidating your warranty either. Just wanted to share this for the more budget oriented Dave owners looking for a huge upgrade 😉


Where did you find them for $300. Cable Company has them listed at 10k?


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## ufospls2 (Aug 23, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Where did you find them for $300. Cable Company has them listed at 10k?


Aliexpress is full of copy/fake cables (note he mentioned it being a "clone") of the popular brands, Siltech being one of them. They are 90-97% accurate in terms of looks. Inside, not so much. Usually use the very cheapest and thinnest of copper or teflon, no shielding and some filler....Of course, it depends if you feel cables make a difference overall. They are quite well built though and feel/look the part.


----------



## maxh22

Somatic said:


> Where did you find them for $300. Cable Company has them listed at 10k?





ufospls2 said:


> Aliexpress is full of copy/fake cables (note he mentioned it being a "clone") of the popular brands, Siltech being one of them. They are 90-97% accurate in terms of looks. Inside, not so much. Usually use the very cheapest and thinnest of copper or teflon, no shielding and some filler....Of course, it depends if you feel cables make a difference overall. They are quite well built though and feel/look the part.


Yes they can be found on Aliexpress: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3256803433720373.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.21ef1802TrX6WO

I visited a friend's house and we compared the Siltech to his genuine Furutech Powerflux 18 Power Cord which is a $2k+ cable and the difference wasn't even close! The Siltech sounded silky smooth with far more body and accurate timbre. Instruments and vocals pop right out at you in an almost hauntingly way. Think, of the detail of a silver cable with the richness of a copper cable but it's more than that.  Music is presented in a way that just sounds right, real, and genuine. I haven't heard the original but to both of us it sounds just how the reviewers described it, so I ordered it on the spot and it was delivered in less than two weeks to the USA. If anyone wants to purchase one and compare it against any of the aftermarket PSU's it would make for a very interesting write-up!


----------



## 563236 (Aug 23, 2022)

Hey Guys,

I'm out of the game and burnt out from this hobby.  I'm like a 5-year cyclical end-user.  But clocks talk pull me back in slightly.  I'm Pro-Clock.

I just wanted to show my support for those whom are now discovering what clocks at the source can do.  It's too bad it took the dCS Lina to shine a light, but better late than never.  It's not an imagination, it's real.  Clocks are awesome.  I only lurk a few times a month and trying to cut to zero, so when I see clock talk...

Forgive me as I moved on from this hobby and have only a faint trace of my research left.  Also, forgive me as I'm just a Hugo₂ CIEM peasant.  The best CIEM chain up to the transducer in the history of Head-Fi, but I'm not playing high-stakes with the Doyles and the Durrs as I'm more risk-adverse and just want to get my hands dirty and experiment in this hobby before deciding if it's worth it to scale for CIEMs.  With Clocks, I lean towards scaling.  Without Clocks, I lean towards selling off and moving on from this hobby.

I also love Chord DACs as I can listen almost literally straight out of the FPGA DAC out of a WBT 2-channel CIEM cable that only GOAT IEM reviewers have in possession at this time.  I only get cables that have full control of the supply chain (metals) the old school way.




Anyways, IMO, the source should be treated separately from the DAC.  The DAC should have no say in the source besides for the input interface.  So I don't understand why a DAC designer would comment on the source.  Does the DAC designer realise when they use a MSI Laptop optical or their son's gaming motherboard optical OUT, they are using external clocks?  Albeit, very cheap clocks.  SPDIF quality is determined by the clocks.  Cheap clocks have high jitter I agree, so why is our DAC designer using cheap external clocks to feed his Chord DAC?  A bit hypocritical.  TV optical OUT, cheap clocks.  Chromecast Audio, cheap clocks.  MSI Latops, cheap clocks.  Noisy Mains PCs, cheap clocks.  I could go on and on, but since I'm out of the hobby, I have long COVID brain fog.  It's like CD transports with optical OUT have Hi-Fi clocks since the beginning of time, so now if I feed a Chord DAC with a CD transport, external clocks are bad?  Just because you can't visually identify the clocks doesn't mean there's not a clock heavily embedded.  DAP users optical OUT have clocks too that's why early Hugo days, some prefer DAPs as the source because it had better clocking than a dumb file server source.

During COVID-19, I clock-rolled.  I went from embedded clocks which are better than cheap clocks listed above to Hi-Fi clocks you find in AIO devices.  I finally settled on State of the Art (SOTA) clocks which destroy any Hi-Fi clocks out there.  For SPDIF you needs clocks, so why not get the best?  Why criticise external clocks when anytime you use SPDIF you are using some type of clocking?

SOTA clocks are near perfect and the measurements prove it. You don't have to worry about jitter or timing errors with SOTA, it's a modern SPDIF solution which is impossible to find these days.  Also can SOTA USB, but the Asus Sage Motherboard allowing external clocks internally is a rabbit hole and SPDIF will always be superior to USB.  It's like if you replace the typical Hi-Fi clocks in a CD transport with SOTA clocks, it's a whole different realm.  You should be able to scale DACs and sources independent of one another.  These are not AIO devices.  Chord DACs are not miracle workers, it's better to eliminate jitter and timing errors at the source than letting the Chord DAC with a small PLL handle the workload.  If you have timing errors, by the time the Chord DAC receives the not-perfect-as-the-original-source, it will be too late.  How can the Chord DAC recover these timing errors?  It's impossible.  Like the Yangtze River only flows one-way, you can't get it back.  It's better to feed the Chord DAC a near perfect signal free from jitter and timing errors.  I believe that is what dCS AIO devices and DAP AIO devices attempt to do, but will never be able to scale to SOTA levels.  If you reverse engineer TOTL AIO devices, you will notice they are running typical Hi-Fi clocks.  Hi-Fi clocks are nothing compared to State of the Art clocks.  I'm always skeptical when I clock-rolled, but each iteration just brought more Nirvana.  I was even skeptical with the 2-channel CIEM cable, but Oh Lord...

My external clocks are slightly larger than a Hugo₂, so it's going to destroy PLL or coin-size clocks.  They are classified as State of the Art clocks because they measure SOTA.  But remember, this is all source.  It has zero to do with a Chord DAC.  You can be feeding any brand of DAC.  But if you don't feed with the best source possible, performance will be abysmal no matter which DAC you use.

When it comes to DACs, I follow every word of Rob Watts.  I'm a die-hard Rob Watts fan.  When it comes to sources, Rob Watts is more like a novice PC builder building a PC for the first time.  You can't be an expert in every facet of this hobby.  So when he talks sources, he's like a novice up against seasoned MasterRacePCGamer builders.  I just wish he kept a more open-mind on sources.

I hate any glorified high-markup noisy mains USB file servers that litter this place.  I want SOTA as the foundation then mOhms low impedance throughout the chain.  My power supplies are Super Capacitors only with Solid Core Silver Wiring throughout.  Basically, I use a Medical-Grade Mean Well SMPS connected to the Mains.  The other side of the SMPS is connected to the Super Capacitor Management System PCB.  When you turn on the PCB, it automatically disconnects from the Mains.  The other side is connected to about over 20,000 Farads total.  Then I have a SwitchCraft DC plug with solid core to the PCB.

Anyways, here's some embedded PLL, clocks, etc.  Okay, not recommending just as an example.  My crystal for the SOTA clock is almost the size of a Mojo.  Hi-Fi clocks sounded good when I went through that phase, but SOTA is stratospheres above anything out there.

https://www.cirrus.com/products/wm8804/

https://www.digikey.com/en/product-...-wm8805-s-pdif-digital-interface-transceivers

https://www.cirrus.com/products/wm8805/

If you read the Phoenix re-clocker for USB, it's similar to the impressions I get.  But Phoenix is only a typical Hi-Fi clock.  Just making a point you can clock i2s or USB.  Dumb Passive Noisy Mains File Servers that everyone else is using are not my thing.  I need active processes and zero noise floor, not Status Symbols.

Sorry for the intrusion, I play at the lower stakes but I love clock talk.  I'm out after copy and pasting from another thread.  House of The Dragons (HOTD) is my hobby now.


----------



## 563236 (Aug 23, 2022)

Here's my comparison posts in another Chord thread.  I was just trying to point out you can save loads and stay the course with your Chord DAC while building something similar to a dCS Lina stack.  Anyways, you guys are years behind the curve.  Audi5000.

--- cut and paste ---

I'll be back when a new Refresh is available.  You can consider this digital impressions option when the stars align.  (*ignore, directed at Rob Watts since I'm trying to get him proper CIEM impressions since I've been in this CIEM game since 2001*)

I'm only back temp because I couldn't help but appreciate the comment someone made on the London 2022 Impressions thread.

They mentioned they could not believe the difference clocks made when comparing the dCS Lina Stack against itself.  To me, even though it's subtle, clocks are whole different experience with my Chord Stack.  Mainly, it's fatigue-free, digital glare is gone, details galore, PrAT, etc. because timing errors at the source are completely eliminated so I feed the Chord DAC with a near perfect signal.  I run near perfect measured clocks better than the dCS clocks.  I run off-grid power better than car batteries.

I'm in the "The Right Bit @ the Wrong Time is the Wrong Bit" camp.  So with near perfect clocks, the probability of timing errors are eliminated.  That's why I can listen to one track 25 times in a row.  I can listen to whole albums without getting 'triggered' to take a naviagation action.  Whole different experience.  Fatigue is a thing of the past because the brain doesn't have to process timing errors.

With the dCS Lina Stack being released, I can't help but liken it to my WFH Chord CIEM Stack.  Even though I'm CIEM-only, I treat my chain with meticulous respect like a headphone chain.  My whole chain is mOhms impedance, so as close to running the whole chain "bare metal" as possible.  Honestly, I'll take my WFH Chord CIEM Stack every-time.  I doubt nothing will be as this "modern" for years and years.  Of course glass optical.  Even ASR approves optical without even a single listening session, no-brainer.  Everything else is just noise.


*WFH Chord CIEM Stack**dCS Lina Stack (Can even apply to AIO like DAPs, etc. minus the power section)*ClocksNear Perfect Measurements [X]OK, Typical Average Clocks, nothing special. Yawn.DACChord [X]More AIO than pure focus on DAC.PowerOff-Grid Dynamic, Low Impedance (mOhms) [X]Mains, no ability to scale off-grid like Chord.Operating SystemOpen-Source, 4ever update-able, realtime low-latency kernel, dedicated CPU cores exclusive to audio, ability to load entirely in RAM. [X]Proprietary BS like all commercial Status Symbol solutions.  Update maybe a few times and that's it, you are stuck with that for it's lifetime.  Usually, no ability to load entire OS in RAM.Playback SoftwareOpen-Source, 4ever update-able, if the software you want is available, you should be able to implement.  Scale software over time, even if a software is release five years from now. Real Summit-Fi Software. I also playback from dedicated RAM.[X]Proprietary BS like all commercial Status Symbol solutions.  Stuck with software that will stop updating at some point.  Stuck for it's lifetime with zero updates.  Usually not considered Summit-Fi Software.  It's okay, average.  Usually, no RAM playback ability.AmplifierNon-traditional.  As close to listening straight out of the DAC as possible.  Highest Resolution and Transparency with zero distortion and colouring. [X]Traditional.  I would never use Traditional Amplification.CIEM OutputRCA.  With RCA, you have the ability to scale to WBT.  World of difference with speaker-like attributes. [X]Traditional and Amplified.  No way I'm ever going back to amplified for CIEM-use.

Anyways, this was a COVID-19 project, so it's time to move on and not think about this stuff ever again.  I'm going to focus on a nice transducer and of course the Hugo₃ going forward.  Please keep RCA Output on Hugo₃.

Many thanks for your teachings here on this thread.  It helped inspire me to build something better than a car battery because car batteries are not too practical.  When I decided to visit the Audiologist in Beverly Hills back in 2001, I never thought I could experience this level of enjoyment.  With CIEMs the most progressive technology-wise, it's going to be fun going forward.  It would take 6 digits to reach this level in the speaker world.  Compared to the dCS Lina stack, I'm in at a fraction.  Not listening with your wallet is a good take away from this thread.  That's a great story you met John Franks @ CES.  I miss all the free expensive software they give away @CES.

I'm out (again).


----------



## 563236 (Aug 24, 2022)

Oh, one more thing.  If I do scale with the new HMS or a TTtre TT₃, Super Capacitor power only.

Basically, Ground and PWR goes to PCB.  Then PCB solid core DC to a Chord Product.  The PCB only uses Mains for charging.  It's completely cut-off internally from the Mains once it's switched on.  I'm running about 17V for the SOTA clocks, but I should be able to get in down under 15V if needed.  Easy, friendly and convenient.  No unplugging.  No worrying if a car battery stops peaking in performance halfway.  Just switch on and off, the PCB is smart enough to eliminate Mains from the equation since the PCB designer is also an Audiophile.





https://4xspower.com/product/sb1260-27/

As you can see, well below 15V for Chord Products.  Although I build from the ground up since I have a brand preference for Super Capacitors and not into ready-made solutions.  I'm into UK Super Capacitors, not USA.  For Car Audio, USA is fine, but for Chord or the best Audio clocks in the world I want UK Super Capacitors.

Note, Final Farads specs is calculated by Math which COVID Brain Fog prevents me from remembering ATM.  But this one should be around 18,000 Farads total.  Mine should be closer to 25,000 Farads.  Then you are supposed to divide by number of Super Capacitors to get to Capacitance 1260F?  I forget.  It doesn't make a difference overall, but it's a good detail to know.

This also allows my power supplies to run regulator-free.  No matter how fancy a brand name noisy power supply you have, you are bottle-necked by the regulator.  This allows for the only 5V solution in the world to run regulator-free which I use for my Hugo₂ to run 24/7.


----------



## theveterans

disembarked said:


> Oh, one more thing.  If I do scale with the new HMS or a TTtre TT₃, Super Capacitor power only.
> 
> Basically, Ground and PWR goes to PCB.  Then PCB solid core DC to a Chord Product.  The PCB only uses Mains for charging.  It's completely cut-off internally from the Mains once it's switched on.  I'm running about 17V for the SOTA clocks, but I should be able to get in down under 15V if needed.
> 
> ...



That's actually very cheap considering many opt for something like the Stromtank S4000 to completely get their whole setup off the grid


----------



## 801evan

This is aligned with my Dave + line conditioner + CDT + OCXO setup and how it can effortlessly drive the Susvara and Stealth, which has made many people upset. 😁😁😁


----------



## DJW50

So for me as a potential DAVE buyer next year (I should have the cash in 12 months) it seems the case of the DAVE then a year later the Sean Jacobs PSU.
If by any chance a new model is proposed/released, like the new version of the Utopia (I bought new set in April this year) I may just catch it.
No plans to change the Pathos Inpol Ear or the Auralic G1 as I love them both and I do not plan to change the Utopias either.


----------



## adrianm

disembarked said:


> Not listening with your wallet is a good take away from this thread.


That's true, but actually listening to stuff before judging it is a better takeaway. I feel like this thread has become very cult like in its approach. Feels like people take whatever Rob gives them as some kind of holy grail, yet they go and change it completely to improve it. How does that work? No offense but for the amount of work that you did, I would expect Chord to pay me. Then again, I work in consulting, I still feel like I'm owed a commission  for my tinkering 


GuiltyRocker said:


> It's all taste in the end, Golden Sound did not like the Bartok at all and that is supposed to be better than the Lina, in fact, I have read a few people that didn't like the Bartok, too smooth and blankets things.  It may be that the DAVE is not to your liking, I heard the dCS Rossini stack with Mágico very expensive speakers and I was not impressed at all.  To me it sounded overly smooth and I felt it covered my details, I like the Qutest with M Scaler better, but that's just me, I find after listening to a ton of DACs that I like what Rob does.  No offense.


Well on first listen Golden did say he liked the Lina dac, and that it did sound better, with the exception of the amp. I'm not sure why people think Bartok is better. It's the same hardware, Golden listened to it before it got the 2.0 mapper upgrade, which supposedly changed the sound considerably. Lina also has different filters compared to the original Bartok, created for headphone use. So it's nowhere near apples to apples.
  I can't speak to anything other than what I've heard, so that might be the case.
    I know people here get easily offended, but there's really no need to worry. People who do get offended should really stop tying their self worth to their hi-fi or any other objects.
   It's just stuff. And Lina sounding better to me doesn't make Dave sound worse. Well, maybe a little, for me, because I keep doing comparisons inadvertently. But it definitely shouldn't for anyone else.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

adrianm said:


> That's true, but actually listening to stuff before judging it is a better takeaway. I feel like this thread has become very cult like in its approach. Feels like people take whatever Rob gives them as some kind of holy grail, yet they go and change it completely to improve it. How does that work? No offense but for the amount of work that you did, I would expect Chord to pay me. Then again, I work in consulting, I still feel like I'm owed a commission  for my tinkering
> 
> Well on first listen Golden did say he liked the Lina dac, and that it did sound better, with the exception of the amp. I'm not sure why people think Bartok is better. It's the same hardware, Golden listened to it before it got the 2.0 mapper upgrade, which supposedly changed the sound considerably. Lina also has different filters compared to the original Bartok, created for headphone use. So it's nowhere near apples to apples.
> I can't speak to anything other than what I've heard, so that might be the case.
> ...


Thanks for sharing, perhaps I'll audition the Lina and see what the deal is.  I for one am not offended at all by your comments and views, I didn't design the Chord stuff and I'm not an owner at the company 😂. Keep the comments coming.


----------



## adrianm

GuiltyRocker said:


> Thanks for sharing, perhaps I'll audition the Lina and see what the deal is.  I for one am not offended at all by your comments and views, I didn't design the Chord stuff and I'm not an owner at the company 😂. Keep the comments coming.


My thought exactly. I'm also not in a hurry to drop 22k on it before I hear what else that money can buy. That's a Stax x9k + T2, almost a Warwick Aperio, Etc.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

adrianm said:


> My thought exactly. I'm also not in a hurry to drop 22k on it before I hear what else that money can buy. That's a Stax x9k + T2, almost a Warwick Aperio, Etc.


At this level the next DAC that you can probably hear is the MSB, I heard one of their DACs twice I think it was the premier DAC and I was very, very impressed.  It sounded real to me.


----------



## theveterans

GuiltyRocker said:


> At this level the next DAC that you can probably hear is the MSB, I heard one of their DACs twice I think it was the premier DAC and I was very, very impressed.  It sounded real to me.



MSB is the antithesis of Chord’s philosophy BTW. MSB is pretty much taking non oversampling approach to the very best it can sound (using discrete components for inputs but more direct signal paths, femto33 home brew oscillator, discrete LPS, etc) while Chord puts everything on its oversampling and Pulse Array DAC and without the need of those discrete gizmos (oscillator, LPS, etc) to sound world class


----------



## GuiltyRocker

theveterans said:


> MSB is the antithesis of Chord’s philosophy BTW. MSB is pretty much taking non oversampling approach to the very best it can sound (using discrete components for inputs but more direct signal paths, femto33 home brew oscillator, discrete LPS, etc) while Chord puts everything on its oversampling and Pulse Array DAC and without the need of those discrete gizmos (oscillator, LPS, etc) to sound world class


I agree, but I heard it and it sounded amazing.  Way over my budget and I would probably never have it, but I gotta say it did sound amazing.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

I keep seeing a lot of criticism for Chord on the switch mode power supplies being used to ship the product, what is the deal with this?  Do the linear power supplies make the Chord DACs really sound better?


----------



## SteveHulk

GuiltyRocker said:


> I keep seeing a lot of criticism for Chord on the switch mode power supplies being used to ship the product, what is the deal with this?  Do the linear power supplies make the Chord DACs really sound better?


All I can say to this is that you really have to hear a DAVE + lps for yourself and make up your own mind.

For me, I can say that DAVE + Farad3 was a serious upgrade over stock DAVE.

I do not use the HP output on the DAVE but those who do report excellent results to the extent that some cans previously undriveable by stock DAVE are now driven well. 

I have not heard the SJ ARC6 so I can't comment on that.  However, +ARC6 launches the DAVE into direct price competition with the Lina stack so it had better be good.


----------



## DJW50

SteveHulk said:


> All I can say to this is that you really have to hear a DAVE + lps for yourself and make up your own mind.
> 
> For me, I can say that DAVE + Farad3 was a serious upgrade over stock DAVE.
> 
> ...


I think you're right there perhaps the Farad would be a more sensible upgrade after a period of time. On a lesser scale I thought my Qutest sounded different in a good way with a decent LPS so I can only think the DAVE would be better for it too.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

DJW50 said:


> I think you're right there perhaps the Farad would be a more sensible upgrade after a period of time. On a lesser scale I thought my Qutest sounded different in a good way with a decent LPS so I can only think the DAVE would be better for it too.


I have a Qutest, which "decent" LPS are you referring to?  I would like to try it.


----------



## number1sixerfan

adrianm said:


> Not much for writing reviews, I mostly listen for myself, but I know a lot of other people might be interested in this so here are some impressions of  the Lina stack vs Dave + Oor, from my 4-5 days with them.
> 
> First, to answer the burning question : Is Lina better? the Amp is so...not great, that I would take Dave + Oor over the full Lina stack. It sounded really small in all dimensions. Hope the dCS staff get a chance to listen to the Lina on a proper amp!  The volume pot was also rubbing against internal walls when turned. Hope that was a manufacturing defect.
> 
> ...



Great read.

As far as internal amps, I just don't think you're going to get a high quality headphone amp with TOTL DAC. It's more of a convenience than anything. I've been doing a lot of comparison on my end with the Dave's headphone out (for the second or third time in recent years), because I picked up a few more really efficient headphones, and even so there's just pretty drastic improvement. But that's pretty standard across the board.

But I think this leads to your additional point regarding the value of varying upgrades, which I think is a really important one. Downstream upgrades can really trump many of the upstream tweaks given there's a solid source and DAC as a foundation. It's been years since I've really focused on any upstream tweaks because those thousands of dollars can be better spent on amp/headphone upgrades that will literally blow most of these changes out of the water ROI wise. Obviously the specifics and use cases matter, and I'm not talking about power in this case at all--namely everything else (streamers, optical/usb gadgets, cables, etc.).. but that's been my experience over the years. And again it's all subjective and dependent upon what each person enjoys changing and investing in, so definitely the personal factor is a major one.


----------



## 801evan

number1sixerfan said:


> Great read.
> 
> As far as internal amps, I just don't think you're going to get a high quality headphone amp with TOTL DAC. It's more of a convenience than anything. I've been doing a lot of comparison on my end with the Dave's headphone out (for the second or third time in recent years), because I picked up a few more really efficient headphones, and even so there's just pretty drastic improvement. But that's pretty standard across the board.
> 
> But I think this leads to your additional point regarding the value of varying upgrades, which I think is a really important one. Downstream upgrades can really trump many of the upstream tweaks given there's a solid source and DAC as a foundation. It's been years since I've really focused on any upstream tweaks because those thousands of dollars can be better spent on amp/headphone upgrades that will literally blow most of these changes out of the water ROI wise. Obviously the specifics and use cases matter, and I'm not talking about power in this case at all--namely everything else (streamers, optical/usb gadgets, cables, etc.).. but that's been my experience over the years. And again it's all subjective and dependent upon what each person enjoys changing and investing in, so definitely the personal factor is a major one.


Your lack of attention on the upstream is exactly why you think HP out of a totl Dac is merely a convenience and ending needlessly pouring money on an external amp.


----------



## DJW50

GuiltyRocker said:


> I have a Qutest, which "decent" LPS are you referring to?  I would like to try it.


I bought the MCRU Ultimate, I bought it with the intention of returning it if I had any doubt, needless to say it stayed. On my system the sound expanded which I guess is soundstage and I swear a couple of very subtle instruments in King Crimson's track Islands stood out.


----------



## number1sixerfan (Aug 24, 2022)

801evan said:


> Your lack of attention on the upstream is exactly why you think HP out of a totl Dac is merely a convenience and ending needlessly pouring money on an external amp.



If you'd take literally 30 seconds to read a post for true comprehension rather than to craft your next mindless attack on anyone that doesn't succumb to your easily proven faulty POVs, you would see that I CLEARLY stated that I've already experimented, multiple times.

I have nothing to debate with you, and why the mods continue to let you troll and attack others for not submitting to your one and only set of views is just absolutely lost on me. Entire threads derailed over and over by one person that seeks absolute submission to their POV. Absolutely insane to me.


----------



## adrianm

number1sixerfan said:


> Great read.
> 
> As far as internal amps, I just don't think you're going to get a high quality headphone amp with TOTL DAC. It's more of a convenience than anything. I've been doing a lot of comparison on my end with the Dave's headphone out (for the second or third time in recent years), because I picked up a few more really efficient headphones, and even so there's just pretty drastic improvement. But that's pretty standard across the board.
> 
> But I think this leads to your additional point regarding the value of varying upgrades, which I think is a really important one. Downstream upgrades can really trump many of the upstream tweaks given there's a solid source and DAC as a foundation. It's been years since I've really focused on any upstream tweaks because those thousands of dollars can be better spent on amp/headphone upgrades that will literally blow most of these changes out of the water ROI wise. Obviously the specifics and use cases matter, and I'm not talking about power in this case at all--namely everything else (streamers, optical/usb gadgets, cables, etc.).. but that's been my experience over the years. And again it's all subjective and dependent upon what each person enjoys changing and investing in, so definitely the personal factor is a major one.


Thanks! I agree, this is why i'm not even considering using any integrated amp from now on. I feel the best approach is getting a streaming dac so you don't have to deal with jitter, cables, and all that crap. As shown even by dCS, headphone amps are better left to the companies that know how to design them.
    They might get it right eventually, but 10k to be a beta tester is not a good look. I guess it's a good way to tell if someone got the stack for the status symbol/look or actually knows what they're buying. 
    Completely agree, I've also tested everything else under the sun upstream wise and it's been more or less a waste of time. Audible, sure, but nothing earth-shattering. The 2k streamer added to Dave didn't even put a dent in the gap between it and the Lina. I've already had and sold another streamer. Power is the only exception that made a massive difference with Dave, besides skipping USB and using the SRC-DX. 
   As much as people here like to overlook this aspect, it does show subpar engineering and cutting corners. 
      Since I don't listen THAT much, that I can justify more than 2 pairs of headphones (1 open, 1 closed), I can sort of justify having a better chain to feed them. I've also found I can't stand going back to a lesser dac, no matter the headphone. 
     I'm just not sure how much I'm missing out on by not using electrostatics , but I do think I'd end up missing the slam of planars. My Z1R might be next up for an upgrade.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

adrianm said:


> Thanks! I agree, this is why i'm not even considering using any integrated amp from now on. I feel the best approach is getting a streaming dac so you don't have to deal with jitter, cables, and all that crap. As shown even by dCS, headphone amps are better left to the companies that know how to design them.
> They might get it right eventually, but 10k to be a beta tester is not a good look. I guess it's a good way to tell if someone got the stack for the status symbol/look or actually knows what they're buying.
> Completely agree, I've also tested everything else under the sun upstream wise and it's been more or less a waste of time. Audible, sure, but nothing earth-shattering. The 2k streamer added to Dave didn't even put a dent in the gap between it and the Lina. I've already had and sold another streamer. Power is the only exception that made a massive difference with Dave, besides skipping USB and using the SRC-DX.
> As much as people here like to overlook this aspect, it does show subpar engineering and cutting corners.
> ...


It seems Chord has to pay more attention to power supplies in their next models, almost every one agrees, time for them to listen to their customers.


----------



## DJW50

GuiltyRocker said:


> It seems Chord has to pay more attention to power supplies in their next models, almost every one agrees, time for them to listen to their customers.


I don't really mind if they don't put an expensive upgrade into the DAVE's power supply because after reading Stevehulk's post about putting in the Farad it's nice to have a choice of what to buy. It looks pretty easy to do (regardless of warranty issues) and as part of this hobby I quite like the idea of choice whether you do it yourself. In some ways I relate it to cars my latest car has enormous BHP but you can't really do anything to it because it's already done , whereas my little track-day VX220 Turbo can be fettled to death and it's rewarding.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

I just switched the power supply of the Qutest for an Ifi IPower X and oh my God.   It's crazy how much it opened up and how everything sounds smoother but with more detail.  Crazy.


----------



## muski

GuiltyRocker said:


> It seems Chord has to pay more attention to power supplies in their next models, almost every one agrees, time for them to listen to their customers.


Innuos seems to have done this to great success…


----------



## DJW50

GuiltyRocker said:


> I just switched the power supply of the Qutest for an Ifi IPower X and oh my God.   It's crazy how much it opened up and how everything sounds smoother but with more detail.  Crazy.


I'm glad you found a difference I certainly did, hard to believe it could make a noticeable difference but it does.
So I'm convinced on the Dave it must be the way to go.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

I just listened for 5 hours straight zero ear fatigue, and at really high volume too, love Chord.


----------



## Somatic

If one wants to impart more "Dave-ness" to the chain, should one use pre-amp vs DAC mode? I feel the headphone amp is part of the Dave signature for better or worse ... the headphone out got so much better with the Farad3. So if I use DAC mode will I lose some of the gains I received from the upgraded headphone out? Thanks.


----------



## DJJEZ

Somatic said:


> If one wants to impart more "Dave-ness" to the chain, should one use pre-amp vs DAC mode? I feel the headphone amp is part of the Dave signature for better or worse ... the headphone out got so much better with the Farad3. So if I use DAC mode will I lose some of the gains I received from the upgraded headphone out? Thanks.


DAVE pre amp and dac mode are identical in sound.


----------



## adrianm (Aug 25, 2022)

DJJEZ said:


> DAVE pre amp and dac mode are identical in sound.


You do however lose dynamic range when using Dave to adjust volume compared to a good pre-amp.


Somatic said:


> If one wants to impart more "Dave-ness" to the chain, should one use pre-amp vs DAC mode? I feel the headphone amp is part of the Dave signature for better or worse ... the headphone out got so much better with the Farad3. So if I use DAC mode will I lose some of the gains I received from the upgraded headphone out? Thanks.


The answer depends on the pre-amp and headphones used (because you have to turn it way down with efficient headphones, and the problem above comes into play) but since i know you're talking about Oor, from what i've seen in Goldensound's measurements, it seems like Dave in dac mode is the way to go, even for Susvara i'd think.


----------



## Triode User

muski said:


> Innuos seems to have done this to great success…


Indeed and the most recent Innuos much lauded revision to their top of the line Statement was a power supply only change.

Also, apart from their entry level Zen Mini everything else in their range of digital streamers uses linear power supplies. Indeed often the only real difference between some models in the range is the power supply, ie the Zen and the Zenith. Innuos it appears has come to a completely different conclusion in the matter of whether a SMPS is better than a LPS for powering digital circuits and limiting noise in them.

When I owned a Qutest I settled on a Farad Super3 power supply but was then staggered by the more or less jaw dropping improvement by changing the Farad to a Sean Jacobs DC4. It was a similar improvement when I changed my DC4 on the Dave to the ARC6 (ie the same power supply as has just been adopted by Innuos in their Statement). At the moment I am looking forward to Sean’s latest tweak/upgrade to the ARC6 which I think is due out soon. Happy days of ever improving sound with the Dave.


----------



## rkt31

Currawong said:


> Indeed. It has to be re-mastered from the original files, not the final master, to maintain quality.


remaster from original pcm files will sound poorer than that original master files. only one scenario when remaster can sound better if we are talking about consumer cd quality files. cd quality remaster can sound better than older cd quality version if better resampling algorithm and better dither are used to downsample from high res pcm master to cd quality. any other processing like eq, compression etc will degrade the sound.


----------



## Super Pang

GuiltyRocker said:


> It seems Chord has to pay more attention to power supplies in their next models, almost every one agrees, time for them to listen to their customers.


Everyone except the designer.

And by "almost everyone", you mean the minority of customers who spend too much time on Hifi forums.

SMPS are the foundation of all Chord Electronics products so I really can't see this changing. I doubt its affecting sales at all.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Super Pang said:


> Everyone except the designer.
> 
> And by "almost everyone", you mean the minority of customers who spend too much time on Hifi forums.
> 
> SMPS are the foundation of all Chord Electronics products so I really can't see this changing. I doubt its affecting sales at all.



The other thing is cost. Personally, at the time I bought the Dave, it was at the upper bound of what I was willing to pay for a DAC. Once I have a really killer speaker setup + headphones, I'll feel more comfortable shelling out more. But I'd imagine that there are a considerable amount of users that probably wouldn't own a Dave if it were say $5k more that it is today. (and that's also considering the price increases during the pandemic)

But I do agree that improvement in power seems worthwhile in general. The Farad 3 looks really interesting given the price point. Definitely something I may consider looking into in the future.


----------



## Reactcore

Super Pang said:


> And by "almost everyone", you mean the minority of customers who spend too much time on Hifi forums.


Yup youre right.. this upgraderitus is a virus i got from this forums.. but then i never would have discovered Chord

We should spend more time with the music😜


----------



## paulrbarnard

zen87192 said:


> Is anyone running a pair of *very small*, but high quality speakers, from their DAVE? There sometimes comes a time when one just needs to pump some sound though speakers rather than Headphones. I'd like a pair of small speakers on my small music cupboard and would like some suggestions as to which ones, be it active or passive. 🍻


I run a pair of Genelek 8331 and a 7360 sub from my Dave. Fantastic sound.


----------



## Currawong (Aug 26, 2022)

rkt31 said:


> remaster from original pcm files will sound poorer than that original master files. only one scenario when remaster can sound better if we are talking about consumer cd quality files. cd quality remaster can sound better than older cd quality version if better resampling algorithm and better dither are used to downsample from high res pcm master to cd quality. any other processing like eq, compression etc will degrade the sound.


You've got your terms all over the place. The "master" is the final file, _after the mastering process_, that the record company uses to make the media the public buys or streams. Re-mastering is re-creating the master files from the original, raw recordings of the artist(s). Knowing that, please read my previous post again.


----------



## Reactcore

Currawong said:


> You've got your terms all over the place. The "master" is the final file, _after the mastering process_, that the record company uses to make the media the public buys or streams. Re-mastering is re-creating the master files from the original, raw recordings of the artist(s). Knowing that, please read my previous post again.


Its 2 different things..

1: remaster from original recorded channels on eg. the mixing table.. create new pcm file

Or 2: re-adc or even digital to digital like upscaling.

@rkt31 points to the latter i think..


----------



## rkt31 (Aug 26, 2022)

Currawong said:


> You've got your terms all over the place. The "master" is the final file, _after the mastering process_, that the record company uses to make the media the public buys or streams. Re-mastering is re-creating the master files from the original, raw recordings of the artist(s). Knowing that, please read my previous post again.


Master is not the final distribution file. Master is the file from which consumer distribution cd quality files are generated. In digital, master most of the time is high resolution pcm files like 24 96, 24 192 or even 24 384, after final mixing of digital multi track recordings ( some labels record in two channels only) . You can even buy these final high resolution masters on websites these days. Labels like chesky which record in two channels only claim their high resolution two channels files are untouched and available on websites for buying. You see digital technology makes possible consumers to buy original digital master.  "So remaster is not the master file". Remaster is the reprocessed "cd quality file" for consumers from pcm master files. In some very rare cases even a new digital master can also be done by remixing the original digital multi tracks. In analog there is only one master which is final master analog tape or direct cut record which may be or may not be mix of multi tracks. That final master analog tape is the basis of digital high resolution transfer later. Many specialized labels like mfsl use custom R2R machine and adcs to make their own digital high resolution master.


----------



## burbster

Super Pang said:


> Everyone except the designer.
> 
> And by "almost everyone", you mean the minority of customers who spend too much time on Hifi forums.
> 
> SMPS are the foundation of all Chord Electronics products so I really can't see this changing. I doubt its affecting sales at all.


Agree, they are wedded to the idea of the SMPS. I am a DC4 convert, made a huge difference, but I guess for a true comparison we should be comparing a DC4'ed Dave to a Dave with a £5.5k SMPS. (if there i such a thing!)


----------



## msq123

ConvinceMeAudio’s review of Chord Dave up on YouTube now


----------



## zen87192

paulrbarnard said:


> I run a pair of Genelek 8331 and a 7360 sub from my Dave. Fantastic sound.


They look pretty good. Size may still be an issue but I will see if I can obtain a demo of these Genelek 8331's. In the meantime my next question is which Headphone Amplifier would one recommend for the Dave (currently running LCD-5's)? I'm currently using a Singxer SA-1 which, although very good, I know I can do better.


----------



## adrianm

zen87192 said:


> They look pretty good. Size may still be an issue but I will see if I can obtain a demo of these Genelek 8331's. In the meantime my next question is which Headphone Amplifier would one recommend for the Dave (currently running LCD-5's)? I'm currently using a Singxer SA-1 which, although very good, I know I can do better.


Oor+Hypsos


----------



## maxh22

What ethernet cables do you guys use?


----------



## paulrbarnard (Aug 26, 2022)

zen87192 said:


> They look pretty good. Size may still be an issue but I will see if I can obtain a demo of these Genelek 8331's. In the meantime my next question is which Headphone Amplifier would one recommend for the Dave (currently running LCD-5's)? I'm currently using a Singxer SA-1 which, although very good, I know I can do better.


I have LCD 5 as well 😀. I prefer them through a valve amp and I have a Woo WA7 connected to the DAVE. Again for me it sounds fantastic. I’ve tried to love the headphone output from DAVE but just prefer the extra warmth I get from the WA7. The DAC in the WA7 sucks big time hence just using it as the amp.


----------



## rkt31

Currawong said:


> You've got your terms all over the place. The "master" is the final file, _after the mastering process_, that the record company uses to make the media the public buys or streams. Re-mastering is re-creating the master files from the original, raw recordings of the artist(s). Knowing that, please read my previous post again.


No remastering is not recreating the master file because you can't recreate master from original pcm master. you cam only reprocess the original master. In some very rare cases you mix all the digital multitracks again to get a new master but that is very uncommon. So remaster is new cd quality distribution file after reprocessing the pcm master.


----------



## GryphonGuy

maxh22 said:


> What ethernet cables do you guys use?



If you want a game-changing network audio experience, try optical fibre of the single-mode variety with 1310nm wavelength transceivers. Just the last half or full metre would be copper. The copper cables I use were purchased some time ago but were Cable Matters Cat 8. The extra insulation seems to work for my system. Optical fibre is very different from copper but changing from multi-mode fibre to single-mode fibre was jaw-dropping stuff. As always YMMV.

Regards
GG


----------



## muski (Aug 26, 2022)

maxh22 said:


> What ethernet cables do you guys use?


Sablon for critical connections. Otherwise Blue Jeans 6a. I also run Corning indoor/outdoor single mode fiber between my server and streamer.


----------



## SteveHulk (Aug 27, 2022)

maxh22 said:


> What ethernet cables do you guys use?


Currys/PCWorld's own special cheap and crappy 😀

However, I'm not sending any music data over it. Just control signals between the Zen Mini III and my phone.

To defend my system against rf noise, I have implemented a battery-powered fibre optic bridge in the ethernet cable with a very short patch cable between the bridge and the Zen. The two fibre media converters have separate batteries. A single shared battery for the two FMCs would risk creating an rf bypass rendering the bridge useless.


----------



## adrianm (Aug 27, 2022)

adrianm said:


> Well on first listen Golden did say he liked the Lina dac, and that it did sound better, with the exception of the amp. I'm not sure why people think Bartok is better. It's the same hardware, Golden listened to it before it got the 2.0 mapper upgrade, which supposedly changed the sound considerably. Lina also has different filters compared to the original Bartok, created for headphone use. So it's nowhere near apples to apples.


They also mention in their _totally objective_ review with a link to buy the Lina amp, that the Bartok dac sounds smoother than the Lina dac when using the Lina amp.
https://headfonics.com/dcs-lina-headphone-amplifier-review/
@GuiltyRocker . Replying to myself, now i just need to like my own post


----------



## GuiltyRocker

adrianm said:


> They also mention in their _totally objective_ review with a link to buy the Lina amp, that the Bartok dac sounds smoother than the Lina dac when using the Lina amp.
> https://headfonics.com/dcs-lina-headphone-amplifier-review/
> @GuiltyRocker . Replying to myself, now i just need to like my own post


It seems you really like the Lina, I think you should get it and keep enjoying it, but you need it with the clock and that's another hit to the bank account 😂


----------



## adrianm

GuiltyRocker said:


> It seems you really like the Lina, I think you should get it and keep enjoying it, but you need it with the clock and that's another hit to the bank account 😂


Yeah, that's why I haven't bit the bullet yet. I'd probably buy them both and be done with it. My mind is already made up if I'm being honest with myself, but other priorities right now. Waiting for the right time.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

adrianm said:


> Yeah, that's why I haven't bit the bullet yet. I'd probably buy them both and be done with it. My mind is already made up if I'm being honest with myself, but other priorities right now. Waiting for the right time.


Get it, you only live once.  Enjoy, I am happy you found the sound you like.


----------



## JamieMcC

Noticed a recent review on YouTube I've not had time to watch it yet myself

Here's the link


----------



## George Hincapie

muski said:


> Sablon for critical connections. Otherwise Blue Jeans 6a. I also run Corning indoor/outdoor single mode fiber between my server and streamer.


Do you find Sablon offer a noticable SQ improvement over Blue Jeans?


----------



## SteveHulk

JamieMcC said:


> Noticed a recent review on YouTube I've not had time to watch it yet myself
> 
> Here's the link



Interesting review.

Looks like picking up a second hand DAVE might be a good investment in terms of having something to trade in that dealers are going to be happy to take for a good few years yet.


----------



## Somatic

What’s the deal with these sine wave generator UPS? Would that be the best option to clean the mains?

I have a ZeroSurge connected to the wall. Everything connects to the Zerosurge. I use LPS on pretty much my entire chain. I use Toslink. 

Hear power regenerators could do more harm than good depending on your environment. Any other tips to clean my source or am I pretty good? Thanks


----------



## theveterans

Somatic said:


> What’s the deal with these sine wave generator UPS? Would that be the best option to clean the mains?
> 
> I have a ZeroSurge connected to the wall. Everything connects to the Zerosurge. I use LPS on pretty much my entire chain. I use Toslink.
> 
> Hear power regenerators could do more harm than good depending on your environment. Any other tips to clean my source or am I pretty good? Thanks



I would say the best method is for the whole system to be completely off the grid and not just DAVE. A large battery generator like the Stromtank S2500 for the whole system is the most optimum for any audio chain


----------



## Somatic

GryphonGuy said:


> If you want a game-changing network audio experience, try optical fibre of the single-mode variety with 1310nm wavelength transceivers. Just the last half or full metre would be copper. The copper cables I use were purchased some time ago but were Cable Matters Cat 8. The extra insulation seems to work for my system. Optical fibre is very different from copper but changing from multi-mode fibre to single-mode fibre was jaw-dropping stuff. As always YMMV.
> 
> Regards
> GG


Can you dumb this down some more? I have a router downstairs and use a power line adapter to get Ethernet in my room. What would you recommend to clean up the Ethernet? Does it make a difference?


----------



## Somatic

https://www.ravepubs.com/torus-powerblock-pb-10-aimed-mid-sized-av-systems/amp/

Wouldn’t something like this clean up the power from the mains? If so, does this make the Farad3 and HYPSOS unnecessary? I would assume this is too simple and I am missing something. Also if you have this connected to the mains and then LPS connected to the power block would this be a benefit or detriment to the sound. Thanks


----------



## Reactcore (Aug 28, 2022)

Somatic said:


> https://www.ravepubs.com/torus-powerblock-pb-10-aimed-mid-sized-av-systems/amp/
> 
> Wouldn’t something like this clean up the power from the mains? If so, does this make the Farad3 and HYPSOS unnecessary? I would assume this is too simple and I am missing something. Also if you have this connected to the mains and then LPS connected to the power block would this be a benefit or detriment to the sound. Thanks



Best way is unregulated batteries. No sinewaves.
Any smps powered device can operate on DC voltage.

I have a 140v battery with charger design ready to be made. Its just on hold till after my Choral mscaler with internal optic bridge adventure

My optic is now working @384k
So will design a pcb for dual link to fit in the housing


----------



## kumar402

Somatic said:


> Can you dumb this down some more? I have a router downstairs and use a power line adapter to get Ethernet in my room. What would you recommend to clean up the Ethernet? Does it make a difference?


Best way is to convert the Ethernet to optical for long distance run and just before your streamer, convert the optical back to Ethernet and hence no issue of electrical interference. Just make sure the converter that’s converting optical to Ethernet is connected to good LPS.


----------



## theveterans

Somatic said:


> https://www.ravepubs.com/torus-powerblock-pb-10-aimed-mid-sized-av-systems/amp/
> 
> Wouldn’t something like this clean up the power from the mains? If so, does this make the Farad3 and HYPSOS unnecessary? I would assume this is too simple and I am missing something. Also if you have this connected to the mains and then LPS connected to the power block would this be a benefit or detriment to the sound. Thanks



Does it provide enough power swings and plenty of headroom that will ensure enough dynamics on complex sections of a track? If it does have a supercapacitor it probably can provide those swings. The Stromtank S2500 can provide 2,300 W peak power when needed and has 550 W RMS continuous which is enough for medium size room. It's a pricey solution, but it makes your whole system completely off the grid (if for streaming, router can be on the grid and just the ethernet fiber stream to ethernet converter along with the streamer is off the grid)


----------



## GuiltyRocker (Aug 28, 2022)

Check this video out, talks about time domain.

@Rob Watts, I think this video talks about many of the things you say.


----------



## alxw0w

GuiltyRocker said:


> Check this video out, talks about time domain.
> 
> @Rob Watts, I think this video talks about many of the things you say.



That's why I love forums  (not all obviously  )
Thanks a lot for the video, very interesting (not watched full yet, but I will in free time)


----------



## Reactcore

JamieMcC said:


> Noticed a recent review on YouTube I've not had time to watch it yet myself
> 
> Here's the link



Thanks for notifying us😉
One thing i filtered Rob got a uber (integrated?) DAC on his roadmap from Chord.. maybe a new coming Chord lineup aside Choral hmm


----------



## Frankie D

GuiltyRocker said:


> Check this video out, talks about time domain.
> 
> @Rob Watts, I think this video talks about many of the things you say.



Excellent.  Thanks for posting.


----------



## alxw0w

alxw0w said:


> That's why I love forums  (not all obviously  )
> Thanks a lot for the video, very interesting (not watched full yet, but I will in free time)


Ok so small follow up. Watched the video couldn't wait 
Interesting stuff, basically confirmation what Rob was saying (and Chord dacs lovers knew/felt) that timing is crucial.

If somebody is interested in more stuff from Milind N. Kunchur I suggest to check his page and researches:
http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur//Acoustics-papers.htm
One more time thanks @GuiltyRocker for the video.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

alxw0w said:


> Ok so small follow up. Watched the video couldn't wait
> Interesting stuff, basically confirmation what Rob was saying (and Chord dacs lovers knew/felt) that timing is crucial.
> 
> If somebody is interested in more stuff from Milind N. Kunchur I suggest to check his page and researches:
> ...


Anytime, I'm here to learn and have fun!


----------



## GuiltyRocker

What's amazing is what Rob has said for years, if you chop off the transients it gets very hard to tell what the instrument is, Rob has said that over and over.


----------



## SteveHulk

GuiltyRocker said:


> What's amazing is what Rob has said for years, if you chop off the transients it gets very hard to tell what the instrument is, Rob has said that over and over.


Another angle on this, which is familiar to those of us who made electronic music without the aid of keyboard-driven synthesisers, is to consider a sound played backwards. 

Playing a tape backwards and altering the speed was a common basic way of generating new sounds in those days.

A piano note played backwards is as good as unrecognisable despite the fact that it contains all of the same harmonics in the same ratios as the forwards version.

The envelope of a sound is crucial, and this envelope is not only determined by the presence of the correct harmonics but also by their relative phases.

Phase and transient timing are two sides of the same coin.

This is why recording the phases of the various sound sources relative to the listener is vital, and why recordings that lose that relationship either at source or during mixing sound so bad.

It is why recordings using just a single stereo pair of mics generally have a great soundstage even though they might have other warts relating to the actual performance.

Post mixing, that 2nd oboe might now be audible but mixing in the single mic track from the 2nd oboe without proper regard to its phase relationship with the rest of the recording will wreck the soundstage.

Such mangled recordings cannot be redeemed by an audio chain, no matter how excellent.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

SteveHulk said:


> Another angle on this, which is familiar to those of us who made electronic music without the aid of keyboard-driven synthesisers, is to consider a sound played backwards.
> 
> Playing a tape backwards and altering the speed was a common basic way of generating new sounds in those days.
> 
> ...


Excellent, thanks for sharing.


----------



## Somatic

Any new info on the choral Mscaler? Still coming out this year?


----------



## Somatic

Wondering if anyone can recommend some reasonable priced silver or copper interconnects? I was thinking Lavricable grand or master xlr and rcas but was unsure if it would add to harshness in the chain. So far I find the Lavricable grand to sound a bit harsh so unsure that burn in will change that. So far, copper/silver hybrid has been my jam.


----------



## muski

George Hincapie said:


> Do you find Sablon offer a noticable SQ improvement over Blue Jeans?


Yes, to my ears. Improvements were consistent with RF reduction: wider soundstage, better mid-bass and smoother uppers.  Barrows at Sonore found the same.


----------



## miketlse

Somatic said:


> Any new info on the choral Mscaler? Still coming out this year?


Watch the interview with Rob Watts posted by dusty.ro . Rob says Q1 if the pré-production prototype circuit boards work as intended, but possibly Q4 if there are issues and the circuit boards need to be revised and retested.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

It's interesting that Rob is working on an ultimate DAC, or reference DAC.  Can't wait to see what it is.


----------



## Triode User (Aug 29, 2022)

GuiltyRocker said:


> It's interesting that Rob is working on an ultimate DAC, or reference DAC.  Can't wait to see what it is.


I got worried when he kept mentioning 100k in the context of the Ultima Reference dac!


----------



## The Jester

Same with anything “high end”,
Add R&D, prototype modelling and manufacturing costs and divide by the estimated unit sales and then add the required margins to be a feasible project.


----------



## LucyWu (Aug 29, 2022)

You only have to look at the pricing for Chord Ultima products over many years - No matter the level of engineeringand performance, pricing is "enthusisatic". Products at this level are so far down the curve of diminishing returns that by the time most of us have acrrued the wealth to be able (and the senility to think it a good use of our savings) our hearing has deteriorated to the point we couldn't hear any of the incremental gains on offer.

Stuff at this level is not about performance, any more than a Richard Mille watch is about telling the time. Maybe John Franks has shares in a bauxite mine.


----------



## The Jester

Luckily the R&D that goes into many “ultimate” projects filter down into more “affordable” gear ?


----------



## GryphonGuy

Somatic said:


> Can you dumb this down some more? I have a router downstairs and use a power line adapter to get Ethernet in my room. What would you recommend to clean up the Ethernet? Does it make a difference?



I have no experience with running ethernet signals on cabling sharing and competing with 120v 60Hz signals for your electricity delivery. My guess is ethernet signals would be less than optimal.

I guess if you are a tenant you can't do much about it. If you own/mortgage the place then I would suggest running a cat 6 or higher ethernet cable from downstairs to where you use the ethernet upstairs as a first step. Just to see what differences that brings. Hopefully a lot.

As others have suggested, running single mode optical fibre from downstairs to upstairs would also benefit more, in my experience. You would need media converters with decent power at both ends, I suspect. I have optical fibre facilities on my switches both upstairs and downstairs so I only have experience with EtherRegens as media converters and they do a great job. However they are currently unavailable due to component obsolescence and general component availability issues as are other popular media converter brands for audio.

Cheers
GG


----------



## Somatic

GuiltyRocker said:


> It's interesting that Rob is working on an ultimate DAC, or reference DAC.  Can't wait to see what it is.


Sounds like it’s going to be in the $50k-$100k range. Pretty crazy. Don’t think I will be buying :/


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Somatic said:


> Sounds like it’s going to be in the $50k-$100k range. Pretty crazy. Don’t think I will be buying :/


That's out of my budget 😂.  I'll let others get it.  😂


----------



## zen87192

Scalpels at the ready to extract those Kidneys and Livers... 😷


----------



## GuiltyRocker

zen87192 said:


> Scalpels at the ready to extract those Kidneys and Livers... 😷


Hahahahahahahahahahaahha


----------



## paulrbarnard

Somatic said:


> Sounds like it’s going to be in the $50k-$100k range. Pretty crazy. Don’t think I will be buying :/


Think I’ll wait for Amir to test it first 😀


----------



## GuiltyRocker

paulrbarnard said:


> Think I’ll wait for Amir to test it first 😀


Throwing logs in the fire!   😂


----------



## zen87192

And Petrol…


----------



## Somatic

paulrbarnard said:


> Think I’ll wait for Amir to test it first 😀


I'm sure he will say some Topping entry level still performs better. Not sure but I'm enjoying my Dave + Farad3 right now.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Somatic said:


> I'm sure he will say some Topping entry level still performs better. Not sure but I'm enjoying my Dave + Farad3 right now.


Hahahahahahahahaha, or SMSL 😂


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> I got worried when he kept mentioning 100k in the context of the Ultimata Reference dac!


Well this forum has shown enough people are buying Chord's marketing about them being better than everyone else. People are also willing to spend 4-5x Dave's cost to "improve it", so why wouldn't they charge upwards of 50k? The big question is, will it also have a 15$ power supply? or will Chord finally tacitly admit their shortcomings. 
     Hell, can't wait to see the Ultima M-scaler's price. Might even be a market for Ultima Wave cables soon   .


----------



## GuiltyRocker

adrianm said:


> Well this forum has shown enough people are buying Chord's marketing about them being better than everyone else. People are also willing to spend 4-5x Dave's cost to "improve it", so why wouldn't they charge upwards of 50k? The big question is, will it also have a 15$ power supply? or will Chord finally tacitly admit their shortcomings.
> Hell, can't wait to see the Ultima M-scaler's price. Might even be a market for Ultima Wave cables soon   .


Hahahahahahahahahaha


----------



## GuiltyRocker

zen87192 said:


> And Petrol…


Hahahahahahahaha


----------



## Rob Watts

GuiltyRocker said:


> What's amazing is what Rob has said for years, if you chop off the transients it gets very hard to tell what the instrument is, Rob has said that over and over.



The importance of transients from perception/psychoacoustics POV has been in the text books for many decades. This isn't new - my small contribution is the realisation that interpolation filters muck up the timing of transients dynamically (that is transients sometimes being early sometimes being late) and that the ear/brain is hugely sensitive to these errors.



Somatic said:


> Any new info on the choral Mscaler? Still coming out this year?



No news on the delivery of the next prototypes. Problems getting parts, and the subcontractor delays in having staff to program and run the pick and place machines. Sadly it won't be this year.



Triode User said:


> I got worried when he kept mentioning 100k in the context of the Ultima Reference dac!



That wasn't in the context of the Ultima DAC, but in the pricing of other DACs. I don't know what the retail price will be - the design BOM is just performance driven, not on parts cost.



The Jester said:


> Luckily the R&D that goes into many “ultimate” projects filter down into more “affordable” gear ?



Absolutely. I can't forget things, not after all the time and effort that's gone into discovering things that turn out to be subjectively important.

Having said that, some of the things I have discovered require huge amounts of gates to implement - that means bigger FPGAs, which in turn will increase retail price.



GuiltyRocker said:


> Check this video out, talks about time domain.
> 
> @Rob Watts, I think this video talks about many of the things you say.




Great video - he talks about the importance of timing and transients for the perception of timbre. Of course, transients are also vital for sound-staging (left to right using the interaural delays) and perception of bass pitch, as the brain infers bass from transients, due to the limited number of hairs in the cochlea for bass pitch.

He talks about fixed delays, with sensitivity of transient timing to uS. But the problem we have with interpolation filters are the delays are program dependent and constantly changing - transients being either to early or too late. If it was just a uS problem, you would not be able to hear much of a difference from 100k taps WTA to 1M taps. My own listening tests suggests that any transient timing error, no matter how small, if it's a program dependent varying error, will be very much more audible - indeed any error, no matter how small, seems audible.

I have always thought that the audibility of transient timing errors was independent of age, and it's good to see that view supported too. Even with HF hearing loss, you still need perfect transient timing reconstruction to give the illusion of music sounding real.


----------



## The Jester

Also from that video of the Cochlea receiving low frequencies slightly behind the high frequencies is interesting,
As well as the absolute accuracy of smaller signals involved, a slight shift in arrival time between low and high frequencies could be how the auditory system perceives distance or depth ?


----------



## Johnny Moondog

I am getting ready to list my Chord DAVE and Sean Jacobs ARC6 DC4 power supply as a turn-key system. Both units are black and in pristine condition. Handled once for installation and will be handled a second time for the sale.

The fully maxed out ARC6 DC4 is configured with the Mundorf silver/gold wire upgrade. These are rarely found on the used market, and Sean Jacobs does not discount them. Given the 3 to 4 months burn-in time on the ARC6 DC4 and the nearly 2 months lead time on a new unit, purchasing this system is definitely beneficial.

If anyone is interested please send a PM.

Gerry


----------



## Malcyg

Somatic said:


> Can you dumb this down some more? I have a router downstairs and use a power line adapter to get Ethernet in my room. What would you recommend to clean up the Ethernet? Does it make a difference?



Can you find a way of making a direct connection and get rid of the power line? Or even use Wifi instead?

Years back when I first started playing music files seriously through my main system, I used power line to get around physical difficulties of connecting Ethernet. It took me a lot of time and frustration - not to say expense - until I discovered that you will never get a good sound using power line. Harsh, but true ime. I know it’s been several years now, but I doubt that very much has changed.


----------



## Somatic

Malcyg said:


> Can you find a way of making a direct connection and get rid of the power line? Or even use Wifi instead?
> 
> Years back when I first started playing music files seriously through my main system, I used power line to get around physical difficulties of connecting Ethernet. It took me a lot of time and frustration - not to say expense - until I discovered that you will never get a good sound using power line. Harsh, but true ime. I know it’s been several years now, but I doubt that very much has changed.


As soon as I buy a home I will work on getting Ethernet wired up and will ask the clan for advice


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Reactcore said:


> Thanks for notifying us😉
> One thing i filtered Rob got a uber (integrated?) DAC on his roadmap from Chord.. maybe a new coming Chord lineup aside Choral hmm



I think it’s a cost no object ultima range product.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Triode User said:


> I got worried when he kept mentioning 100k in the context of the Ultima Reference dac!



Time to put the price of those cables up.


----------



## Malcyg

For a long while, I was really interested in hearing the digital power amps designed for Dave. I waited quite a while for them, but I gave up in the end and moved on. 

Are they a thing yet and, if so, has anyone heard them? It was expected to be like a direct speaker connection to Dave - like some people already do with sensitive speakers, but allowing for use with a much wider range of conventional speakers. I’m referring to this from 1/11/2015 which seemed like a potential game changer to me.



Rob Watts said:


> Dave has 705/768 kHz DX digital outputs to go with my digital power amps. These are non-switching, but still retain the analogue simplicity of two resistors and 2 capacitors plus a single global feedback path. But power output will be from 20W to at least 200W. I just finished testing the DX outputs today.
> 
> The first DX power amp will be available next year and will initially be 20W RMS with a 70W mono-block option.
> 
> Rob


----------



## miketlse

Malcyg said:


> For a long while, I was really interested in hearing the digital power amps designed for Dave. I waited quite a while for them, but I gave up in the end and moved on.
> 
> Are they a thing yet and, if so, has anyone heard them? It was expected to be like a direct speaker connection to Dave - like some people already do with sensitive speakers, but allowing for use with a much wider range of conventional speakers. I’m referring to this from 1/11/2015 which seemed like a potential game changer to me.


Yes during that period shortly after DAVE launched @Rob Watts was optimistic that the digital amps were only a year away. These sort of posts were then followed by posts from @Mojo ideas indicating that these digital amps were several years away, and would not be delivered in the short-term.
Ultimately @Mojo ideas is the customer for Rob, so he decides the product development budget available to Rob.

Several years later and post-covid individuals/buyers expect a bit more transparency, so in good faith it would be good for @Mojo ideas to provide a few clues about the future.
@Mojo ideas I believe that transparency is good for Chord, but if you disagree you can always PM me, and ask me to ****.  Don't worry i won't be offended.


----------



## paulrbarnard

Malcyg said:


> For a long while, I was really interested in hearing the digital power amps designed for Dave. I waited quite a while for them, but I gave up in the end and moved on.
> 
> Are they a thing yet and, if so, has anyone heard them? It was expected to be like a direct speaker connection to Dave - like some people already do with sensitive speakers, but allowing for use with a much wider range of conventional speakers. I’m referring to this from 1/11/2015 which seemed like a potential game changer to me.


I run my DAVE directly into Genelec 8331A/7360A so pretty much exactly what you mention. Using GLM and near field listening at about 1.5 m it is ridiculously good.  If the D’s do exist it would be a great option.


----------



## Malcyg (Aug 31, 2022)

miketlse said:


> Yes during that period shortly after DAVE launched @Rob Watts was optimistic that the digital amps were only a year away. These sort of posts were then followed by posts from @Mojo ideas indicating that these digital amps were several years away, and would not be delivered in the short-term.
> Ultimately @Mojo ideas is the customer for Rob, so he decides the product development budget available to Rob.
> 
> Several years later and post-covid individuals/buyers expect a bit more transparency, so in good faith it would be good for @Mojo ideas to provide a few clues about the future.
> @Mojo ideas I believe that transparency is good for Chord, but if you disagree you can always PM me, and ask me to ****.  Don't worry i won't be offended.



Thanks for clarifying, I must have missed that. I am only an occasional visitor and there are too many pages to read through everything.

It came to my attention because it is on a page that I have set as a shortcut to the Headfi website. I set the link years ago because of a wealth of useful information posted at the time by Roy (Romaz). I’ll copy it here for any newer Dave owners who haven’t gone back in time through the full thread. The post in question is the last one on the page.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-94


----------



## zimzim2001

I have an Opto-DX for sale.  If anyone's interested please PM me.  Thanks.


----------



## Somatic (Sep 1, 2022)

I'm not sure what this says about TOTL headphones or source chain etc but I'm testing some cheap $10 kids headphones for my daughter.  They are mid forward not as much as LCD5 though. Decent soundstage. Wider than LCD5. Actually plays some sub bass frequencies. Has some sibilance issues though. Not sure if its upper midrange or lower treble but definitely some spikes in the FR. Some songs show it more than others. Doesn't seem to distort though with normal to louder levels, surprisingly. I'm still getting some micro details. Reverb tails, music comes out of a black background. Comfort not that good. Sits on the ear and too much clamp force for an adult head. Wondering if anyone is selling aftermarket pads  ... hehe

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09NTL128L?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

Edit: Maybe once I get my new interconnects I can make them sound better. To the moon!


----------



## Progisus

Somatic said:


> I'm not sure what this says about TOTL headphones or source chain etc but I'm testing some cheap $10 kids headphones with coupon for a flight we are going on in a few weeks. They are mid forward. Decent soundstage. Actually can play some sub bass. Has some sibilance issues though. Not distorting lol. I'm still getting some micro details here and there.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09NTL128L?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
> 
> Edit: Maybe once I get my new interconnects I can make them sound better. To the moon!


Hey… almost bought thise (different colour) for my grandson grade 1 French class.


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> I'm not sure what this says about TOTL headphones or source chain etc but I'm testing some cheap $10 kids headphones with coupon for a flight we are going on in a few weeks. They are mid forward. Decent soundstage. Actually can play some sub bass. Has some sibilance issues though. Not distorting lol. I'm still getting some micro details here and there.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09NTL128L?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
> 
> Edit: Maybe once I get my new interconnects I can make them sound better. To the moon!


These look like something @paradoxper  might like.


----------



## paradoxper

adrianm said:


> These look like something @paradoxper  might like.


I certainly wouldn't head it with a DAVE. You are trying to ruin me.


----------



## Somatic

paradoxper said:


> I certainly wouldn't head it with a DAVE. You are trying to ruin me.


ROFL


----------



## Somatic

paradoxper said:


> I certainly wouldn't head it with a DAVE. You are trying to ruin me.


Those speakers look amazing. Would love to hear them, going to see if any of the hifi shops have them around here. Your setup I bet sounds legendary.


----------



## RustyGates

For anyone interested.

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds...super3-linear-psu-black-ferrite-cables.31878/


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Somatic said:


> Those speakers look amazing. Would love to hear them, going to see if any of the hifi shops have them around here. Your setup I bet sounds legendary.


These are my speakers.  The Personas.


----------



## Somatic

GuiltyRocker said:


> These are my speakers.  The Personas.


I honestly dont know much about floor standing. The only one I heard 10+ years ago that I liked was the 803D. A used pair is pretty cheap. But I would need to spend a lot more time researching as I heard these might not be that good?


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Somatic said:


> I honestly dont know much about floor standing. The only one I heard 10+ years ago that I liked was the 803D. A used pair is pretty cheap. But I would need to spend a lot more time researching as I heard these might not be that good?


In my opinion having demoed them and the Personas, the Personas blow them away in every way possible.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

You can see the Qutest/M scaler in this shot.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Somatic said:


> I'm not sure what this says about TOTL headphones or source chain etc but I'm testing some cheap $10 kids headphones for my daughter.  They are mid forward not as much as LCD5 though. Decent soundstage. Wider than LCD5. Actually plays some sub bass frequencies. Has some sibilance issues though. Not sure if its upper midrange or lower treble but definitely some spikes in the FR. Some songs show it more than others. Doesn't seem to distort though with normal to louder levels, surprisingly. I'm still getting some micro details. Reverb tails, music comes out of a black background. Comfort not that good. Sits on the ear and too much clamp force for an adult head. Wondering if anyone is selling aftermarket pads  ... hehe
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09NTL128L?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
> 
> Edit: Maybe once I get my new interconnects I can make them sound better. To the moon!



That's an endgame setup that will turn some heads.


----------



## Sampajanna

Nice system!


----------



## Drewligarchy (Sep 2, 2022)

I've always used and enjoyed Dave exclusively on headphones, but over the past 6 months have built a 2-channel system that is getting the vast majority of my listening time.

Martin Logan Expression 13A via Pass Labs Int 60.

I spent a lot of time on my Dave front end while focusing on headphones. I got a Lumin U1 streamer in front of it with a Chord M-Scaler leveraging both Opto Dx fiber and Wave ferrites. All powered by a PS Audio powerplant,

Now the ML/Pass has been a revelation, ESPECIALLY with the Dave front end. It's sublime - and has allowed me to much better understand it's strengths as a DAC. I have the Dave front end for music, and an RME AD-2 DAC to take the optical from the TV for sound to the entertainment system. The RME is really good, don't get me wrong - but when compared to the Dave, even on similarly recordings, Dave is just so much smoother, colorful and lifelike. Admittedly audiophile cliche's - but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

I call it magic dac sauce.

What's your magic dac sauce?


----------



## Reactcore

GuiltyRocker said:


> You can see the Qutest/M scaler in this shot.


Thats a huge center
Thats why you hear the effect of a vibration dampening under Qutest


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Reactcore said:


> Thats a huge center
> Thats why you hear the effect of a vibration dampening under Qutest


I don't hear any effect of vibration on the Qutest, I put those rubber risers there to further elevate the Qutest as some were saying the M scaler emits some radiation, or electro magnetic interference.


----------



## Powersquat

Drewligarchy said:


> I've always used and enjoyed Dave exclusively on headphones, but over the past 6 months have built a 2-channel system that is getting the vast majority of my listening time.
> 
> Martin Logan Expression 13A via Pass Labs Int 60.
> 
> ...


You have a great set up there, Pass amplification and Martin Logan pair really well. The Logan's are very special and the 13A in particular is in my opinion excellent and my favourite in the Masterpiece range 

After having the ML Classic 9's for some time and been very happy with them, despite having to pair them with a couple of REL subs  to compensate for my perceived slight lack of bass extension, I recently decided to upgrade to the Martin Logan 13A, however in the meantime I got to hear a pair of PMC Fact 12 transmission line floor standers, despite being relatively diminutive, I was blown away by them. This little speaker turned my attention to some of the larger PMC monitors.

I'm currently hoping to listen to the PMC MB2 SE, if there's the incremental improvement I expect over the PMC Fact 12, then I will have a very difficult decision, Martin Logan Expression 13A or the PMC MB2 Se. Of course I'm sure the wonderful Dave will sound great through either the Martin Logan or PMC speakers, I apologise for going off topic, but you know what it's like when you're contemplating a component upgrade.



T




Drewligarchy said:


> I call it magic dac sauce.
> 
> What's your magic dac sauce?


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Drewligarchy said:


> What's your magic dac sauce?



Capacitor flavoured mayo.


----------



## Drewligarchy

Powersquat said:


> You have a great set up there, Pass amplification and Martin Logan pair really well. The Logan's are very special and the 13A in particular is in my opinion excellent and my favourite in the Masterpiece range
> 
> After having the ML Classic 9's for some time and been very happy with them, despite having to pair them with a couple of REL subs  to compensate for my perceived slight lack of bass extension, I recently decided to upgrade to the Martin Logan 13A, however in the meantime I got to hear a pair of PMC Fact 12 transmission line floor standers, despite being relatively diminutive, I was blown away by them. This little speaker turned my attention to some of the larger PMC monitors.
> 
> ...



I never heard the PMCs - but it's all about what you like. I listened to a bunch of speakers in different setups before I got the Logan's, and it was love at first listen. Demo both and trust your ears - ideally one after the other (though that's obviously not required) and trust your ears  Good luck!


----------



## pichler

Uh, when choices have to be made it's always "sweetly frustrating". In my case, in 6 months I decided and invested in the components I now use. The Blumenhofer FS2 MK2 were the most expensive and unknown components to me, I trusted my instincts and the fact that they are efficient (94db) and mid-high horns. Luckily I still enjoy them today ...... they were the speakers who thrilled me the most. Then, one day in May He arrived. Dave (called the chameleon) Even after months I happen to listen to pieces that leave me amazed and sometimes, maybe I'm stupid, but I get moved with tears in my eyes.

Sorry, here we are in HF .....

I want to thank you, it was very interesting to learn from all of you. And I'm just starting out .......


----------



## pichler

Certainly many of you will remember the first few hours after unboxing and plugging in Dave.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

I have listened from 9:00am to 4:00pm loud and have zero ear fatigue.   Thank you @Rob Watts for designing devices that allow this to happen, love your work.


----------



## SteveHulk

pichler said:


> ... Even after months I happen to listen to pieces that leave me amazed and sometimes, maybe I'm stupid, but I get moved with tears in my eyes.
> 
> Sorry, here we are in HF .....
> 
> I want to thank you, it was very interesting to learn from all of you. And I'm just starting out .......


Don't be sorry and you are not stupid.

That emotional connection to music is what it is all about.

It is great that you have a system that releases that awesome potential in music.

Welcome to the club! 🤗


----------



## Reactcore (Sep 4, 2022)

pichler said:


> Certainly many of you will remember the first few hours after unboxing and plugging in Dave.



I havent got that experience.. bought Dave 2nd hand ..in return payed half the price🙂


----------



## Hubert H

paulrbarnard said:


> I run my DAVE directly into Genelec 8331A/7360A so pretty much exactly what you mention. Using GLM and near field listening at about 1.5 m it is ridiculously good.  If the D’s do exist it would be a great option.


Why do you do this? The Genelec’s analogue input is digitised so even a perfect input is still going to hit their ADC, always best to feed them digital and use the Genelec volume control.


----------



## Rin1990

_"It is bested easily by DACs at $150."_

I'm sorry...what? 

I get that ASR is extremely objectivist to the point of nauseating but this claim towards DAVE of all things? Come on now, Amir...

There's a limit to how absurd one can shove their so-called objective opinion down a person's throat...


----------



## ecwl (Sep 6, 2022)

Rin1990 said:


> _"It is bested easily by DACs at $150."_
> 
> I'm sorry...what?
> 
> ...


It is interesting how this YouTube video just came out to address this issue:

I did find the video title quite misleading though.


----------



## iDesign (Sep 6, 2022)

It is misleading and his arguments are disingenuous. Two points Darko misses are the growing emphasis on measurements and excellent low cost audiophile products emerging from China. I see it more as an issue of the new generation of buyers becoming less “tolerant” of high-cost products that don’t preform well.


----------



## Currawong

@Rin1990 It's pseudo science, give it no mind. Basically, set up a narrative, in this case, championing low THD/SINAD numbers using limited test conditions where the device is in a static state, and judge everything based on those results only.


----------



## Rin1990

Currawong said:


> @Rin1990 It's pseudo science, give it no mind. Basically, set up a narrative, in this case, championing low THD/SINAD numbers using limited test conditions where the device is in a static state, and judge everything based on those results only.



I mean I honestly don't have issue to those who test their stuff like that (they can do whatever they want, really) but what I do have an issue is they think that is the most accurate way to buy and get the so called best sound money can buy without grossly overspending. 

I will say this though, I have heard the lovechild combo of D90SE / A90D for a while and honestly, while I love the uncolored and transparent monster of a sound it give, I cannot say it can beat DAVE objectively. 

There are things I am not exactly a fan of for DAVE but I will never say that it can be beaten by a mere $150 DAC or worse, an apple dongle. 

Seriously...whoever came up with that dongle statement needs to have psychiatric treatment...


----------



## thePhones

Currawong said:


> @Rin1990 It's pseudo science, give it no mind. Basically, set up a narrative, in this case, championing low THD/SINAD numbers using limited test conditions where the device is in a static state, and judge everything based on those results only.


The pseudo science on measurements is one thing, but what I don‘t quite get is how the resulting sound quality from all the different techniques in Dacs/amps is debated so controversial. I once was at a Stax booth and they had two setups, one with a tube amp and another with a solid state, but I did not know which one is which. So I plugged in the Hugo 2 with my music into both of them and was shocked how much more distorted one them sounded. The guy who managed the stand later confirmed that it was the one with the tubes. And when it comes to R2R, even through youtube videos I only hear dreadful noise. For example Topping dacs are a big step up in soundquality when compared to any R2R. I know there are a lot of people who praise them but I really do not get it…at all. Maybe someone can open my eyes/ears to what it is they are hearing that makes it enjoyable…


----------



## coopdog

Currawong said:


> @Rin1990 It's pseudo science, give it no mind. Basically, set up a narrative, in this case, championing low THD/SINAD numbers using limited test conditions where the device is in a static state, and judge everything based on those results only.


Hi,
I would love to hear a technical response with measurements from you or @Rob Watts concerning Amir’s latest post about noise floor modulation. I am beginning to feel like I may have wasted a large chunk of money on the DAVE and M Scaler.

Thnx


----------



## thePhones (Sep 6, 2022)

coopdog said:


> Hi,
> I would love to hear a technical response with measurements from you or @Rob Watts concerning Amir’s latest post about noise floor modulation. I am beginning to feel like I may have wasted a large chunk of money on the DAVE and M Scaler.
> 
> Thnx


This was exactly what I was trying to oppose in my previous post, that you do not need measurements to hear how much better a Dave sounds. If it sounds better it has to measure better. If it does not measure better you are not measuring what really matters regarding sound quality. In Germany we electricians have a saying: „Wer viel misst, misst Mist!“ (means: if you don‘t know what you are measuring and just start measuring all over the place you are measuring crap). But then there even seems to be a massive disagreement on what good sound quality actually is and I do not have a solution to settle that argument.


----------



## Somafunk

Currawong said:


> It's pseudo science, give it no mind.



*Pseudoscience* consists of statements, beliefs, or practices that claim to be both scientific and factual but are incompatible with the scientific method. Pseudoscience is often characterized by contradictory, exaggerated or unfalsifiable claims; reliance on conformation bias rather than rigorous attempts at refutation; lack of openness to evaluation bias ; absence of systematic practices when developing hypothesis ; and continued adherence long after the pseudoscientific hypotheses have been experimentally discredited

Sounds like you have your understanding of subjective evaluation vs objective measurements mixed up, anyone with access to identical equipment and testing parameters can follow and repeat the tests carried out and return the same objective measurements that verify the original, this is scientific objectivism and cannot be argued against as otherwise the entire basis of repeatable and conformation of scientific understanding would have to be redrawn.

You appear to have argued for discounting the subjective rather than objective in your statement _“It’s pseudo science, give it no mind”, _thank you for admitting this.


----------



## coopdog

thePhones said:


> This was exactly what I was trying to oppose in my previous post, that you do not need measurements to hear how much better a Dave sounds. If it sounds better it has to measure better. If it does not measure better you are not measuring what really matters regarding sound quality. In Germany we electricians have a saying: „Wer viel misst, misst Mist!“ (means: if you don‘t know what you are measuring and just start measuring all over the place you are measuring crap). But then there even seems to be a massive disagreement on what good sound quality actually is and I do not have a solution to settle that argument.


Thank you for your reply.

The post by Amir is directly addressing statements and *measurements  *attributed to Rob Watts. It seems Amir is trying to replicate the measurements that Mr. Watts published. It is clear that Amir knows exactly what he is measuring as the measurement is supplied by Mr. Watts. I hope you are not saying that Rob doesn’t know what he is measuring.


----------



## Rin1990

I will ask this though;

What is the point of DAVE's existence if ASR's words about measurement are gospel truth and that we should all just buy a D90LE/A90D and be done with it?

Like, speaking from an objective measurement standpoint, surely that would be the point where we have seen and heard all that needs to be heard right?

What is the point of Cayin or Aune's existence? In fact, what is the point of tubes' existence?

I just don't understand objectivists. This isn't even me being spiteful, mind you. I legitimately, genuinely am lost in what to believe, because one side it's all "subjective" passion and the other side is all "objective graphs-say-everything".


----------



## thePhones

coopdog said:


> Thank you for your reply.
> 
> The post by Amir is directly addressing statements and *measurements  *attributed to Rob Watts. It seems Amir is trying to replicate the measurements that Mr. Watts published. It is clear that Amir knows exactly what he is measuring as the measurement is supplied by Mr. Watts. I hope you are not saying that Rob doesn’t know what he is measuring.


Interpreting those measurements is the biggest part of measuring. You not only have to know where you measure, how you measure, in what state the measured dive is while measuring, but most importantly you need to know how each measurement is impacting the resulting sound quality.



Rin1990 said:


> I just don't understand objectivists. This isn't even me being spiteful, mind you. I legitimately, genuinely am lost in what to believe, because one side it's all "subjective" passion and the other side is all "objective graphs-say-everything".


I think those are different things in that listening tests show you how good something sounds, but measurements tell you why something sounds better (if you know how to interpret them). So measurements can guide you to a better sound quality. Otherwise you would be poking around in the dark when designing a product.


----------



## Rob Watts

The problem with measurements is twofold - first problem is the correlation with listening tests, which is very weak and subject to interpretation; moreover I have perceived errors that are impossible to measure with analogue gear, but nonetheless have very significant bearing on sound quality. I have been listening today to some modules that have astonishingly low errors, and replaced them with better modules with even lower numbers and still give significantly audible results. Ultra tiny differences are audible, with musical consequences.

The second issue with measurements is ones intent. If I want to show how bad something is, it's easy to set up the gear and the test to "prove" that performance is poor. On the other hand, if I want to show how good something is, I can set up the lab, the device under test (DUT), and the test gear so that completely different results are apparent.

Of course my measurements are done to show the DUT under the best light - but they are accurate measurements done very carefully - but the tests I publish should be representative of production units, as I will run tests on many prototypes, and use a typical unit, not something cherry picked. And I have tested several Dave's as time has passed, with all giving virtually identical results. 

Another point - something I have always stressed - never blindly trust a review, a mate or for that matter me - opinions should be listened too, but treated as opinions. Before making a purchase, listen to the unit for extended periods, preferably at home. Good dealers will always be able to do this for you. At the end of the day, what works for you, that increases your musical enjoyment, is the only thing that matters. And that is something only you can decide.


----------



## Rin1990

thePhones said:


> I think those are different things in that listening tests show you how good something sounds, but measurements tell you why something sounds better (if you know how to interpret them). So measurements can guide you to a better sound quality. Otherwise you would be poking around in the dark when designing a product.


I mean that's one way to put it.

To be honest, I am almost clueless when it comes to reading graphs/measurements.

If anything I had to always ask for those who know how to read it do it for me and if I'm interested enough, I go and give it a listen to judge whether I really think the sound is worth the money or not -- and more importantly -- do I like the sound or not.


----------



## Rin1990 (Sep 6, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> The problem with measurements is twofold - first problem is the correlation with listening tests, which is very weak and subject to interpretation; moreover I have perceived errors that are impossible to measure with analogue gear, but nonetheless have very significant bearing on sound quality. I have been listening today to some modules that have astonishingly low errors, and replaced them with better modules with even lower numbers and still give significantly audible results. Ultra tiny differences are audible, with musical consequences.
> 
> The second issue with measurements is ones intent. If I want to show how bad something is, it's easy to set up the gear and the test to "prove" that performance is poor. On the other hand, if I want to show how good something is, I can set up the lab, the device under test (DUT), and the test gear so that completely different results are apparent.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more on the whole "intentionally bad measurement" thing. Like, I'm sure those who know how to do it can rig the measurement and post it public and those who are clueless of measurements but follow the person blindly would just echo all his opinions as if it's the most agreed on opinion because they failed to formulate their own or even bother listening to something they judged to be bad at the sight of one person that probably don't even know them personally.

This is why the ASR community sickens me so much despite their gobs of level of technical knowledge spewing that I could make little to nothing of.

All I keep hearing is Topping this and Topping that.

I've listened the D90SE and the A90 Discrete and frankly I do like the transparent and colourless sound signature that it gave, and I do enjoy how this combo is quite a detail monster if fed the right IEM and song recording format. But I refuse to believe that's the be-all-end-all for this hobby because we all know there's no real endgame.

Having listened to DAVE for a short while if there's one thing I haven't tried is to find a powerful amp to pair it with to make use of its DAC because it certainly feel like something is not quite there despite me enjoying the sound a lot too.

I never trust reviews even if they are of better read ones like Twister6's reviews (the guy gets a lot of free stuffs so I can only say that the praises he gave to each product he review don't hold too much weight besides the fact he did listened to them at least), because no matter how sporadic line is drawn between being subjective and objective, I always, always, always listen and  test first for 4-5 hours before consider something worth a buy -- this is even down to power cables.

And I don't give a damn what any anti-cable-snake-oil-claiming-crybabies say because I am not going to let some internet nobodies dictate how I spend my money, that's for sure.

I certainly cannot take someone who said a $150 DAC can beat a DAVE seriously, because this sounds like an excuse to justify being a cheapskate while trying to convince their $1500 setup to sound the same as $5,000,000 setup, when that couldn't be any further from the truth.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

The funny thing is that all the Topping gear that is reviewed in ASR comes from Topping and is sent to Amir for review, he can't open the units to see inside "because he is not allowed to". All the chord stuff that he has reviewed have been retail units sent in by members, I'm I the only one seeing a problem here?   Cherry picking, anyone?  Also, you can configure the console of the AP555 to give you different measurements, I wonder...


----------



## GuiltyRocker

@Rob Watts  Just wondering, if you wanted to cherry pick, couldn't you get a unit to perform perfectly under the bench using certain parts and process to just measure highly in SINAD and other measurements like linearity and multi-tone tests if you didn't care about the sound?


----------



## Rin1990

GuiltyRocker said:


> The funny thing is that all the Topping gear that is reviewed in ASR comes from Topping and is sent to Amir for review, he can't open the units to see inside "because he is not allowed to". All the chord stuff that he has reviewed have been retail units sent in by members, I'm I the only one seeing a problem here?   Cherry picking, anyone?  Also, you can configure the console of the AP555 to give you different measurements, I wonder...


Just reading about this made me think Amir's opinions reek of bias....and it's couldn't be any further than from being "truly objective"


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Rin1990 said:


> Just reading about this made me think Amir's opinions reek of bias....and it's couldn't be any further than from being "truly objective"


I'm just wondering what is going on, there is such a push for cheap Chi-fi stuff that is always sent in by the company and cannot be opened to verify what's inside, I mean, if the units were being sent in my members bought at retail is one thing, but that's not the case.  Sorry, but i see a conflict of interest there.


----------



## Rin1990

GuiltyRocker said:


> I'm just wondering what is going on, there is such a push for cheap Chi-fi stuff that is always sent in by the company and cannot be opened to verify what's inside, I mean, if the units were being sent in my members bought at retail is one thing, but that's not the case.  Sorry, but i see a conflict of interest there.


I don't wanna look too deep into it but it certainly feels like there's a serious Pro-Topping agenda going on.


----------



## flyte3333

Rob Watts said:


> I have been listening today to some modules that have astonishingly low errors, and replaced them with better modules with even lower numbers and still give significantly audible results. Ultra tiny differences are audible, with musical consequences.



Hi Rob. I guess the objectivists will ask if these differences ("significantly audible") would be as significant if you did the testing blind ?

And if you you can't pick out these differences in blind testing, then are they real?

As a science guy I'm sure you understand their argument there? 

I think this is actually the crux of their argument.

And I guess I can see their side, on this point.

I like to think I'm somewhere in the between the two extreme sides


----------



## coopdog

Rob Watts said:


> The problem with measurements is twofold - first problem is the correlation with listening tests, which is very weak and subject to interpretation; moreover I have perceived errors that are impossible to measure with analogue gear, but nonetheless have very significant bearing on sound quality. I have been listening today to some modules that have astonishingly low errors, and replaced them with better modules with even lower numbers and still give significantly audible results. Ultra tiny differences are audible, with musical consequences.
> 
> The second issue with measurements is ones intent. If I want to show how bad something is, it's easy to set up the gear and the test to "prove" that performance is poor. On the other hand, if I want to show how good something is, I can set up the lab, the device under test (DUT), and the test gear so that completely different results are apparent.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the post @Rob Watts 

My question remains why the Topping has better noise floor modulation measurements than the DAVE. Are you saying that Amir manipulated the measurement to show that result? The fact that the DAVE’s performance on that metric was partly responsible for its sonic superiority is one of the reason’s I purchased the DAVE. I don’t want to feel like time has caught up with the DAVE and that more modern designs have surpassed it. Please clarify why Amir achieved the result he did, and if his results have not been manipulated, are you planning a new DAVE to compete with more modern designs?

thnx


----------



## flyte3333 (Sep 6, 2022)

GuiltyRocker said:


> Also, you can configure the console of the AP555 to give you different measurements, I wonder...





Rin1990 said:


> I couldn't agree more on the whole "intentionally bad measurement" thing. Like, I'm sure those who know how to do it can rig the measurement and post it public and those who are clueless of measurements but follow the person blindly would just echo all his opinions as if it's the most agreed on opinion because they failed to formulate their own or even bother listening to something they judged to be bad at the sight of one person that probably don't even know them personally.
> 
> This is why the ASR community sickens me so much despite their gobs of level of technical knowledge spewing that I could make little to nothing of.





Rob Watts said:


> The second issue with measurements is ones intent. If I want to show how bad something is, it's easy to set up the gear and the test to "prove" that performance is poor. On the other hand, if I want to show how good something is, I can set up the lab, the device under test (DUT), and the test gear so that completely different results are apparent.



Fair points but just a note - @GoldenOne measured DAVE + M-Scaler too and had similar measurements to ASR, both with APx555 ...

So if ASR rigged his Dave measurements to be less then 'state of the art', then the same question could be asked of GoldenOne?

I don't think there's any rigging in their Chord measurements to be honest.


----------



## flyte3333

coopdog said:


> My question remains why the Topping has better noise floor modulation measurements than the DAVE.



Where is this?


----------



## Frankie D

Rob Watts said:


> The problem with measurements is twofold - first problem is the correlation with listening tests, which is very weak and subject to interpretation; moreover I have perceived errors that are impossible to measure with analogue gear, but nonetheless have very significant bearing on sound quality. I have been listening today to some modules that have astonishingly low errors, and replaced them with better modules with even lower numbers and still give significantly audible results. Ultra tiny differences are audible, with musical consequences.
> 
> The second issue with measurements is ones intent. If I want to show how bad something is, it's easy to set up the gear and the test to "prove" that performance is poor. On the other hand, if I want to show how good something is, I can set up the lab, the device under test (DUT), and the test gear so that completely different results are apparent.
> 
> ...


Well stated.


----------



## Rin1990 (Sep 6, 2022)

flyte3333 said:


> Where is this?


This is just one of many, many, MANY measurements done by ASR in a majority of their Pro-Topping list.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/topping-l30-ii-review-headphone-amp.36027/

This one so far has the best signal-to-noise ratio in Amir's list.







Notice how DAVE sits at 82 on that other spectrum, while the L30II is on that 100 right on the leftmost.

Pretty absurd I know.

But as to how does the L30 II sound? I'm gonna go and give it a thorough listen tomorrow.


----------



## flyte3333

Rin1990 said:


> This is just one of many, many, MANY measurements done by ASR in a majority of their Pro-Topping list.
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/topping-l30-ii-review-headphone-amp.36027/
> 
> This one so far has the best signal-to-noise ratio in Amir's list.



No I replied to @coopdog who was talking about something different


----------



## Rin1990

flyte3333 said:


> No I replied to @coopdog who was talking about something different


Oh my bad... sorry...


----------



## theveterans

coopdog said:


> Hi,
> I would love to hear a technical response with measurements from you or @Rob Watts concerning Amir’s latest post about noise floor modulation. I am beginning to feel like I may have wasted a large chunk of money on the DAVE and M Scaler.
> 
> Thnx



If you could’ve afforded those two, surely you can buy and resell a DX7+ and A/B them to your own expense. If the Topping gear subjectivity sounds better to you and you resell the Dave + Mscaler with ease


----------



## coopdog

theveterans said:


> If you could’ve afforded those two, surely you can buy and resell a DX7+ and A/B them to your own expense. If the Topping gear subjectivity sounds better to you and you resell the Dave + Mscaler with ease


Thank you for the advice!
I’m more interested in understanding whether the information provided by Chord and Rob Watts is just marketing bs or if it is valid and that the measurements they use in their marketing are accurate.


----------



## theveterans

coopdog said:


> Thank you for the advice!
> I’m more interested in understanding whether the information provided by Chord and Rob Watts is just marketing bs or if it is valid and that the measurements they use in their marketing are accurate.



Got it! From what I see with Amir’s measurements, those noise floor modulation were tested in the analog domain while @Rob Watts is referencing digital domain being much better than theoretical analog domain noise floor. Even JA measures those in the analog domain AFAIK and the -180dB theoretical analog domain floor is met (although can’t be verified with the AP555B as you can see) due to digital domain noise floor being much lower than that from his WTA filter


----------



## GoldenOne

coopdog said:


> My question remains why the Topping has better noise floor modulation measurements than the DAVE





Rin1990 said:


> This is just one of many, many, MANY measurements done by ASR in a majority of their Pro-Topping list.
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/topping-l30-ii-review-headphone-amp.36027/
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone has actually tested noise floor modulation on the topping.
Keep in mind, SNR is a different measurement. SNR tells you what the noise floor is compared to a full scale active signal. (Or in the case of the chart in your comment, referenced to 50mV rather than full output).

It does not tell you how the noise floor changes depending on signal level.


----------



## coopdog (Sep 6, 2022)

The ASR site has Amir’s test of noise floor modulation of the Topping DX7 pro+ in comparison with the DAVE.


----------



## coopdog

theveterans said:


> Got it! From what I see with Amir’s measurements, those noise floor modulation were tested in the analog domain while @Rob Watts is referencing digital domain being much better than theoretical analog domain noise floor. Even JA measures those in the analog domain AFAIK and the -180dB theoretical analog domain floor is met (although can’t be verified with the AP555B as you can see) due to digital domain noise floor being much lower than that from his WTA filter


My understanding is that Amir posted Rob’s own measurement graph and tried to replicate Rob’s results. I would be very surprised if Amir was comparing analog with digital. Very surprised!


----------



## Icenine2

We've been on this off-topic road a while back. If you need measurements read the Stereophile review by John Atkinson. It seems Amir has it out for Chord. Reviewed the TT2. Of course there it Trolling here as well. I wonder how many of these owns a DAVE or equivalent. I'm voting no. They are here just writing to write.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

GoldenOne said:


> I don't think anyone has actually tested noise floor modulation on the topping.
> Keep in mind, SNR is a different measurement. SNR tells you what the noise floor is compared to a full scale active signal. (Or in the case of the chart in your comment, referenced to 50mV rather than full output).
> 
> It does not tell you how the noise floor changes depending on signal level.


Would you care to comment on all these measurements being published by ASR on these Chi-fi DACs and stating they are superior to Chord?  Thanks.


----------



## coopdog

Icenine2 said:


> We've been on this off-topic road a while back. If you need measurements read the Stereophile review by John Atkinson. It seems Amir has it out for Chord. Reviewed the TT2. Of course there it Trolling here as well. I wonder how many of these owns a DAVE or equivalent. I'm voting no. They are here just writing to write.


It is not off-topic, it relates directly to Rob’s own words:

_allows the DAC to eliminate noise floor modulation. Now this is a very important problem, as it makes the DAC sound hard and less smooth and is a major problem with DACs - all other DACs have very large noise floor modulation

Noise floor modulation • Noise floor modulation occurs when noise increases/decreases depending upon the music signal. • The ear/brain is extremely sensitive to this problem as it interferes with the brain’s ability to separate sounds into individual entities • Listening tests have shown sensitivity to noise floor modulation well below levels that are measureable • Noise floor modulation make the sound hard, bright and aggressive; it degrades instrument separation and focus; reducing noise floor modulation improves sense of focus, smoothness and refinement – it sounds much more natural_

These statements led me to believe the DAVE was superior to other dacs and helped me decide to purchase a DAVE and M-Scaler. I would now like to know whether these statements of superiority were accurate. I know……buyer beware.

Can you offer anything to help me answer that question?


----------



## GoldenOne (Sep 6, 2022)

coopdog said:


> The ASR site has Amir’s test of noise floor modulation of the Topping DX7 pro+ in comparison with the DAVE.


Ah ok I hadn't seen that.
Looking at the results, I'm assuming Amir has the high-performance sine analyzer (notch filter) enabled, as he often leaves that on for other measurements like the J-Test.
This can influence the displayed noise floor and should not really be enabled for these sorts of tests.

This is why for example his J-Tests often have a curved shape around the fundamental. He doesn't have one of the DAVE, but here's one of the X18:






Notice the curve upwards between ~6khz and ~18khz

But when tested without the notch enabled:



No hump, and noise floor is shown correctly.

Amir does not publish his configurations so it's impossible to know how he had the analyzer configured, but if he did have the notch filter enabled for this test then it unfortunately renders it mostly invalid and would need to be repeated with it disabled to ensure it is not a contributing factor.

Here's my noise floor modulation test of the DAVE, which shows as @Rob Watts 's own measurements did, no noise floor modulation:





As you can see, no noise floor modulation whatsoever. (Though neither I nor Amir achieved harmonics levels as low as Chord's own. Having said that, I do not have the notch enabled on that test (as explained above) so THD in this graph should be ignored. Look at the full measurements for that info)

Here's an X26 Pro for comparison:






Here we can see some increased noise as a result of higher output. Not much, but some.



GuiltyRocker said:


> Would you care to comment on all these measurements being published by ASR on these Chi-fi DACs and stating they are superior to Chord?  Thanks.


I don't necessarily disagree with the measurements themselves (aside from the noise floor modulation one which as explained above I believe is due to his methodology. The notch filter should not be used in this test). His measurements largely align with my own ( https://goldensound.audio/2022/03/14/chord-dave-measurements-with-mscaler/ ) with some small differences which could easily be attributed to unit variation or difference in setup.

I do however disagree with the conclusion. Personally I feel SINAD alone is an insufficient metric to rank a DAC. It combines too many factors into one number and ignores too many others.

Does a D90SE have higher SINAD than a DAVE? Yes it does.
Does it sound better? No, in my opinion it does not.
Are there demonstrable reasons to explain this? Yes there are. Whether you choose to ignore them is upto you


----------



## GuiltyRocker

GoldenOne said:


> Ah ok I hadn't seen that.
> Looking at the results, I'm assuming Amir has the high-performance sine analyzer (notch filter) enabled, as he often leaves that on for other measurements like the J-Test.
> This can influence the displayed noise floor and should not really be enabled for these sorts of tests.
> 
> ...


Perfect Golden, can you please elaborate on how the DAVE sounds better than the D90SE?  I just want to understand from a sound-perspective what's going on here, unfortunately a lot of people are being led to believe the D90SE is superior.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

GoldenOne said:


> Ah ok I hadn't seen that.
> Looking at the results, I'm assuming Amir has the high-performance sine analyzer (notch filter) enabled, as he often leaves that on for other measurements like the J-Test.
> This can influence the displayed noise floor and should not really be enabled for these sorts of tests.
> 
> ...


Looking at this Notch filter and the fact that ASR doesn't publish the AP console settings to see what is going on make these "measurements" suspect, your video on not trusting measurements is spot-on.


----------



## GoldenOne (Sep 6, 2022)

GuiltyRocker said:


> Looking at this Notch filter and the fact that ASR doesn't publish the AP console settings to see what is going on make these "measurements" suspect, your video on not trusting measurements is spot-on.


It would certainly be good if Amir were to publish his configuration(s).
I'm not sure what the reason for NOT doing so is.

But it leaves others unable to replicate or validate his measurements other than guessing. And not necessarily for those who happen to have an APx555 or something themselves (I'm sure there's not exactly many people in the community who do).
But as in the situation above, someone else could have pointed out that it may have been due to the notch filter if they just had the configuration info. No analyzer needed.

The best way for things to advance, for people to learn, and to avoid needless bickering, is if everyone was more open/transparent.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

GoldenOne said:


> It would certainly be good if Amir were to publish his configuration(s).
> I'm not sure what the reason for NOT doing so is.
> 
> But it leaves others unable to replicate or validate his measurements.


The ASR website has a clear bias against higher-priced equipment, another conflict of interest i keep seeing is companies like Topping sending the equipment directly to him to measure, clearly this presents opportunities to cherry pick, do you take in equipment from members to measure?  Perhaps it's time another party like you that can be trusted take in equipment purchased at retail to verify these outlandish claims.


----------



## GoldenOne

GuiltyRocker said:


> The ASR website has a clear bias against higher-priced equipment


I don't necessarily think a scepticism of higher priced equipment is in and of itself unhealthy. There is PLENTY of stuff that costs an arm and a leg when it REALLY shouldn't, including some products that have hardly been 'developed' at all, rather simply putting an existing product in a fancier box and slapping an enormous markup on it.

BUT, I do personally disagree with the reasoning on ASR for talking negatively about various products. Namely the aforementioned SINAD ranking system.
SINAD is a useful metric to quickly know if something is terrible or not. But ignoring various other factors and focusing primarily on that, or implying a product is worse because it has a few dB lower SINAD (even though various other aspects might be way better) than say a topping product, seems rather silly.



GuiltyRocker said:


> another conflict of interest i keep seeing is companies like Topping sending the equipment directly to him to measure, clearly this presents opportunities to cherry pick, do you take in equipment from members to measure?


This is something that is a bit tricky to say what 'should' be done.
Firstly, I agree, manufacturers sending units gives room for cherrypicking, or in instances of repeated units being sent, brings up the question of how favourable or 'diplomatic' one might be to keep a manufacturer happy so they keep sending stuff. Potentially influencing the outcome of their review or testing.
*I am NOT accusing Amir of doing this*. I'm just saying it's a genuine concern, *and one that exists with ALL reviewers who get stuff from manufacturers, including myself.* This is not unique to Amir, and whilst I think it's a valid criticism, it's one that has to be applied to just about every reviewer out there, as almost all reviews are loaned products by manufacturers.

BUT, on the other hand, there are only three ways to avoid this.

1) Get units solely from friends or viewers/readers. This is what I try to do wherever possible, and most of the stuff I review is indeed sent by friends and viewers, not manufacturers. Though a lot of the stuff Amir reviews too is also from forum members. BUT, it means you can rarely get stuff close to launch, often can't get ahold of something at all, and is quite unpredictable.

2) Buy things yourself. But then this requires you to spend an enormous amount of money to do so. I could not afford to do this, and whilst Amir may be able to, I don't think it would really be fair to expect him to.

3) Have manufacturers reimburse you for a retail unit.
ie: Manufacturer says they want you to test or review something. You buy a retail unit, and have them cover the cost. That way you can review/test something without having to be out of pocket, but people know you've gotten a retail unit with no chance of cherrypicking. Unfortunately most manufacturers would be unwilling to do this.

So whilst it's not great, it's unfortunately a necessary evil. And to reiterate, this affects ALL reviewers, not just Amir. I get stuff from manufacturers too and it's healthy to have a dose of scepticism in those situations.



GuiltyRocker said:


> Perhaps it's time another party like you that can be trusted take in equipment purchased at retail to verify these outlandish claims.


I am always more than happy to take stuff in and measure it. 
If anyone wants anything measured, they can message me here, or on Discord, and I'd be glad to test any product they'd like to send.

A lot of the stuff I've had in has been from people curious about how something they own measures.
For example the two most recent products I posted measurements for were sent in by people for this purpose.

https://goldensound.audio/2022/08/27/cayin-iha6-measurements/

https://goldensound.audio/2022/08/29/crane-song-solaris-quantum-dac-measurements/


----------



## coopdog

GoldenOne said:


> Does it sound better? No, in my opinion it does not.
> Are there demonstrable reasons to explain this? Yes there are. Whether you choose to ignore them is upto you


Thanks for all your efforts.

Could you please elaborate on the demonstrable differences. Then I will be better informed as to whether to ignore them or not.


----------



## GoldenOne

coopdog said:


> Thanks for all your efforts.
> 
> Could you please elaborate on the demonstrable differences. Then I will be better informed as to whether to ignore them or not.


Zero noise floor modulation, extremely high performance reconstruction filter, and exceptional jitter performance to name a few examples.

Or even just things like the harmonic structure being a 2nd order dominated, descending structure. Rather than a more 3rd order dominated or messy/random structure


----------



## coopdog

GoldenOne said:


> Zero noise floor modulation, extremely high performance reconstruction filter, and exceptional jitter performance to name a few examples.


Really?

Doesn’t the D90se have zero noise floor modulation below the DAVE’s, doesn’t the D90se have exceptional jitter performance? Can you actually hear a difference in the filter performance, and if so, please describe the audible difference. Please also describe the audible difference that your 2nd and 3rd harmonic structure make.

This is Amir’s conclusion on your critique of his measurements:

_He is not understanding the nature of this analysis. I am trying to replicate both noise floor and distortion in Rob's posted measurement. Here is what Rob says above his posted graph: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-10#post-11721177

"But around October 2014 AP launched the APX555, and this had a clever system to enable more accurate measurements of distortion and noise floor. *What this instrument does is the employ two ADC's per channel, and an automatic notch filter, so one ADC uses notched out fundamental, and another ADC for the fundamental. The instrument then stitches the two plots together in the digital domain.*

It also had a very high purity analogue oscillator - the system has residual THD at 2.5v of -150dB. Since I need a high purity analogue source to test the pro ADC project, and since Dave at that time exceeded the old AP measurement capacity, once AP launched the APX555 I went out and purchased one.

So we can now see the performance of Dave using the APX555:"

The bolded statement is the High Performance Sine Analyzer feature. If you don't enable it, the ADC in AP will create its own harmonic distortion, substantially corrupting the measurements of high-performance audio devices.  

Here is the performance of DAVE with and without HP Sine Analyzer in AP:







As you see on the right, distortion spiked are now in -138 dB category -- far from -150 dB that Rob showed in his measurement:







Notice how there is a "skirt" under the 1 kHz tone in Rob's measurement, matching mine when using HP mode of the AP. So HP mode has to be used with the signal present. It then reasons that you don't change a thing in the measurement system other than turning off the signal. Which is what I did.

Here is the same measurement as above but with the two overlaid:







His beef with lack of parameters is non-sequitur. It is Rob's measurements that are so situated. I went out of my way to explain all the relevant parameters in my testing.
_
*Conclusions*
_This test required using HP mode because that is what Rob used to make the claim of no noise floor modulation and ultra low distortion. Now, if he is saying Rob turned off the HP mode in his noise measurement, then that adds to the problem as Rob should have been very clear that the two measurements were performed differently.

Finally, both DACs were treated the same. It doesn't get more fair and proper than this._

This seems reasonable to me. Is he mistaken, or is it a fair comparison? Have you measured the D90 or DX7? Are you sure they don’t measure better than the DAVE? Of course using all the measurements you deem necessary.


----------



## GoldenOne (Sep 6, 2022)

coopdog said:


> Doesn’t the D90se have zero noise floor modulation below the DAVE’s


I've no idea, I haven't seen anyone test noise floor modulation on the D90SE.


coopdog said:


> doesn’t the D90se have exceptional jitter performance


Yes it does. Amir's chart only shows to about -155dB though so whether it's as good as DAVE is unclear. But both are great


coopdog said:


> Can you actually hear a difference in the filter performance


Yes



coopdog said:


> please describe the audible difference. Please also describe the audible difference that your 2nd and 3rd harmonic structure make.


With filters, usually the biggest effect is presentation of soundstage and 3d placement in my experience.
In regards to harmonic structure, 2nd order dominance usually leads to a subjectively warmer/denser sort of sound, and 3rd order dominance tends to lead to a sharper/brighter sound.
This is just my personal experience though.
You can try both of these for yourself by using a tool like PGGB or HQPlayer for high quality reconstruction. Or Distort for adding harmonic distortion to music.
(though the latter has the limitation that harmonic distortion is static. Whereas in a real device it can change in both level and structure dependent on the level and frequency of the signal)



coopdog said:


> This is Amir’s conclusion on your critique of his measurements


Just to be very clear. This will be my last response to this.
If Amir wishes to discuss the topic, I'd be happy to do so, either here in this thread, or on ASR if he'll allow.
But I'm not going to have some sort of 'debate-by-proxy'.

In regards to Amir's comments about the THD though, I don't disagree. And if you re-read my post you'll see I noted that both Amir's and my own measurements did not show harmonics as low as those published by Chord/RW. So I don't really have much to add there as there's no disagreement.

As to the noise floor modulation, my own tests showed no noise floor modulation, and my noise floor measurements were more similar to RW's.

If I can get a DAVE in again (and once my analyzer is back, it's currently with AP being calibrated) I'll re-run the tests with exactly the same output level, HP on etc, and let the FFT run a much higher number of averages and see how close my result is to RW.

But yeah, summary is:

- Amir's results showed noise floor modulation, RW's and my own measurements did not. Without further info about Amir's setup and/or further experimentation, we can't know for sure why his is showing this behaviour.

- FFT displayed noise floors _(you should never use FFT to judge absolute noise floor btw as it's affected by FFT size and averages) _were at about -177dB (RW), -172dB (Me), and -159dB (Amir).
I'd hazard a guess that the only reason mine wasn't the same as RW's was a combination of the fact that my analyzer would have been in the 5.0Vrms range not 2.5Vrms, and I didn't let it average as long as RW did (hence the thicker noise floor spanning about 9dB instead of about 4dB). I'll recheck once I get another DAVE in. But I don't think my measurements are disagreeing with the actual noise floor shown in RW's measurements.

- Neither I nor Amir were able to achieve the same harmonic distortion results as Rob Watts. And I don't think I've ever seen a DAC with ALL harmonics below -145dB relative to the fundamental. So I am unsure how RW got these results.


----------



## GoldenOne (Sep 6, 2022)

coopdog said:


> His beef with lack of parameters is non-sequitur


On this specific note though. I thoroughly disagree, and cannot really see a reason as to why Amir can't release his configurations or project files.

*non sequitur*
_a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement._

We were discussing how an undisclosed parameter (enabling/disabling of the notch filter) can impact the test we were evaluating. I fail to see how that isn't relevant.
More to the point, even if Amir feels it IS irrelevant, why not just provide configuration info anyway and put the issue to bed?


----------



## coopdog

GoldenOne said:


> I've no idea, I haven't seen anyone test noise floor modulation on the D90SE.


Thanks for your response. No need to reply. Your explanation speaks for itself. You ignore the fact that Amir compared the DX7 pro+ with the DAVE using the exact same parameters and settings and the Topping measured better. I know…..you can ‘hear’ that the DAVE is better. You should have known that I meant the DX7 pro+ and not the D90SE in regard to measured noise floor modulation. I mean this sincerely: I wish I had your hearing abilities.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

I am going to have to get a Chi-Fi Topping D90SE to hear for myself what the fuss is about, 😂.  This is going to be fun.


----------



## coopdog

GoldenOne said:


> On this specific note though. I thoroughly disagree, and cannot really see a reason as to why Amir can't release his configurations or project files.
> 
> *non sequitur*
> _a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement._
> ...


Ask him yourself. Maybe the two of you can have a nice chat about measurements and parameters. That would be nice and I would pay an admission fee.


----------



## GoldenOne (Sep 6, 2022)

coopdog said:


> You ignore the fact that Amir compared the DX7 pro+ with the DAVE


You didn't ask about the DX7 Pro+. You asked about the D90SE.
Additionally, Amir's measurements in that post DID show noise floor modulation on the DX7 Pro+


coopdog said:


> Ask him yourself. Maybe the two of you can have a nice chat about measurements and parameters. That would be nice and I would pay an admission fee.


Amir has banned me from ASR, and hasn't responded to email in the past.
I think it's fairly safe to assume he does not want to talk to me. But I'm here, and he has my email if he does want to discuss anything further.
Though given how the previous discussion when Amir asked me to do a blind test ended, I unfortunately think it'd only result in unwanted drama anyway, so perhaps it's for the best.


----------



## Merkurio

coopdog said:


> Ask him yourself. Maybe the two of you can have a nice chat about measurements and parameters. That would be nice and I would pay an admission fee.



I would also be happy to see this, and as far as I know, Amir also has no problem talking about these topics and sharing experiences and their methodology with other people.

On the other hand, I'm also interested in knowing in detail what GoldenSound claims to hear in relation to audible differences produced by "zero noise floor modulation, extremely high performance reconstruction filter, and exceptional jitter performance", since they are aspects that in the vast majority of the DACs that perform well (regardless of the price) are well above the audible threshold, I assume those claims are made under a rigorous controlled blind test and so I would like to know more details.


----------



## coopdog

GoldenOne said:


> You didn't ask about the DX7 Pro+. You asked about the D90SE.
> 
> Amir has banned me from ASR, and hasn't responded to email in the past.
> I think it's fairly safe to assume he does not want to talk to me. But I'm here, and he has my email if he does want to discuss anything further.


As I mentioned previously, you should have realised I meant the DX7 pro+. The whole discussion is centred around the comparison of the DX7 pro+ and the DAVE. But, since you did reply, what is your take on the DX7 pro+ testing better than the DAVE using the same parameters? 
Since you are being critical of Amir for not disclosing all his settings when testing, maybe you should disclose where you get each piece of equipment you test.


----------



## GoldenOne (Sep 6, 2022)

Merkurio said:


> I would also be happy to see this, and as far as I know, Amir also has no problem talking about these topics and sharing experiences and their methodology with other people.
> 
> On the other hand, I'm also interested in knowing in detail what GoldenSound claims to hear in relation to audible differences produced by "zero noise floor modulation, extremely high performance reconstruction filter, and exceptional jitter performance", since they are aspects that in the vast majority of the DACs that perform well (regardless of the price) are well above the audible threshold, I assume those claims are made under a rigorous controlled blind test and so I would like to know more details.


Yes, I regularly do blind tests between products, and in fact a friend of mine and I have been working on a device that enables unassisted, no-tell ABX tests.

https://streamable.com/tuuyzg

Worth noting though:
You CANNOT use a blind test to evaluate a single characteristic. You can only use it to determine whether or not two things are audibly different at all. (Or to be more specific, you can use it to prove to a statistically significant degree that two things are audibly different. You can't actually use a blind test to prove that they're not)


----------



## GoldenOne

coopdog said:


> As I mentioned previously, you should have realised I meant the DX7 pro+


Well, in the case of the DX7 Pro+, Amir's measurements DID show noise floor modulation.


coopdog said:


> Since you are being critical of Amir for not disclosing all his settings when testing, maybe you should disclose where you get each piece of equipment you test.


I do disclose where I get each piece of equipment. You can see this at the top of every post on my website.

eg: 











Or in the description of every video:


----------



## HelpMeWithHeadphones

DJJEZ said:


> Ive used AHB2 and DAVE. AHB2 only has XLR so use the dave's XLR's out from the dave and put the dave in pre amp mode before connecting it all so you can control the volume. Its very important you don't use dac mode or you will fry your headphones if they are connected to the AHB2 with music playing lol


Wow, I would be so very angry if my headphones fried after connecting them to a 20K+ system. I dont know how I would react


----------



## GoldenOne

HelpMeWithHeadphones said:


> Wow, I would be so very angry if my headphones fried after connecting them to a 20K+ system. I dont know how I would react


Gotta have some volume control somewhere.
If you connected speakers to a power amp with no preamp/volume control they'd go pop too most likely


----------



## HelpMeWithHeadphones

GoldenOne said:


> Gotta have some volume control somewhere.
> If you connected speakers to a power amp with no preamp/volume control they'd go pop too most likely


I was actually wondering: I heard that having a volume knob on the DAC actually decreases SQ when using that knob, rather than having a preamp or something controlling the volume. Is there any truth to that?


----------



## GoldenOne

HelpMeWithHeadphones said:


> I was actually wondering: I heard that having a volume knob on the DAC actually decreases SQ when using that knob, rather than having a preamp or something controlling the volume. Is there any truth to that?


It depends.
The big factor is dynamic range. And in most circumstances, you want to do the volume control with the device that has the highest dynamic range.
If your DAC has say 120dB dynamic range, but your preamp has 140dB, then in theory you can attenuate by up to 20dB using the preamp before losing any actual dynamic range across the whole chain.

However if you attenuate at the DAC you're losing dynamic range immediately.


----------



## HelpMeWithHeadphones

GoldenOne said:


> It depends.
> The big factor is dynamic range. And in most circumstances, you want to do the volume control with the device that has the highest dynamic range.
> If your DAC has say 120dB dynamic range, but your preamp has 140dB, then in theory you can attenuate by up to 20dB using the preamp before losing any actual dynamic range across the whole chain.
> 
> However if you attenuate at the DAC you're losing dynamic range immediately.


Thanks for this information. Much appreciated.


----------



## Merkurio

GoldenOne said:


> You CANNOT use a blind test to evaluate a single characteristic. *You can only use it to determine whether or not two things are audibly different at all*. (Or to be more specific, you can use it to prove to a statistically significant degree that two things are audibly different. You can't actually use a blind test to prove that they're not)



And that's the crux of the discussion here, determining whether those individual metrics or characteristics that are thrown around as marketing claims have a real influence improving your music playback (which is ultimately what these devices are bought for, I think).

To evaluate individual characteristics that can show improvements (or feats) in product engineering we already have the measurements, but I think it's understood that we're referring to psychoacoustics and human perception of sound when we talk about ABX testing.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

GoldenOne said:


> Well, in the case of the DX7 Pro+, Amir's measurements DID show noise floor modulation.
> 
> I do disclose where I get each piece of equipment. You can see this at the top of every post on my website.
> 
> ...


I love how honest you are, keep going at it Golden, love your work and your channel.


----------



## Rin1990

GuiltyRocker said:


> I am going to have to get a Chi-Fi Topping D90SE to hear for myself what the fuss is about, 😂.  This is going to be fun.


As mentioned before, I've tried the D90SE.

For what it's worth it's got slight warmth compared to D90, which I appreciate since I am not a fan of anything that has no flavour whatsoever. It is also incredibly transparent and is quite a detail beast.

Combine that with the A90D and it's quite a monster of dynamics and musicality with really, really clean power to boot. 

Had it not been for a slightly warm DAC source though the A90D may sound a bit too "boring and lifeless" to some, given how flat it is on its own.

At least this is what I experienced.

I like the D90SE, but it's still not quite something I'll go out of my way and buy just yet.

(Which is why I picked the Aune x1S GT as my first desktop DAC Amp instead ..)

And since MQA isn't really worth fussing over, those who are interested in it can consider the D90LE instead. Pretty much a D90SE that ditched the MQA support and therefore cheaper.


----------



## paulrbarnard

Hubert H said:


> Why do you do this? The Genelec’s analogue input is digitised so even a perfect input is still going to hit their ADC, always best to feed them digital and use the Genelec volume control.


I do use the Genelec volume control which is via the GLM. That is not dependent on digital input. I use the DAVE in DAC mode and feed line out to the Genelecs. My thinking is that I get the sound I like from the DAVE so putting that analogue in to the speakers ensures the sound I get at my ears, after the GLM has done it’s part, is still the sound I like. The whole point of the  Genelec speakers with GLM is to get as close to perfect transparency at your ears as possible.  In other words they transfer the DAVE sound exactly as the DAVE does with headphones.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Rin1990 said:


> As mentioned before, I've tried the D90SE.
> 
> For what it's worth it's got slight warmth compared to D90, which I appreciate since I am not a fan of anything that has no flavour whatsoever. It is also incredibly transparent and is quite a detail beast.
> 
> ...


I see, is the sound stage flat as a pizza?


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Rin1990 said:


> As mentioned before, I've tried the D90SE.
> 
> For what it's worth it's got slight warmth compared to D90, which I appreciate since I am not a fan of anything that has no flavour whatsoever. It is also incredibly transparent and is quite a detail beast.
> 
> ...


I'm going to put it against my Oppo BDP105D which is also a Sabre design, I'm gonna have fun with this Chi-Fi stuff, I better like it or some are going to cry when I come back with my impressions, I don't hold back 😂


----------



## Rin1990

GuiltyRocker said:


> I'm going to put it against my Oppo BDP105D which is also a Sabre design, I'm gonna have fun with this Chi-Fi stuff, I better like it or some are going to cry when I come back with my impressions, I don't hold back 😂


Well, I say don't need to hold back if you have no reason to. Since ultimately your opinion should always be yours alone and shouldn't be influenced by anyone else. 

At least that's how it should always be. 

Also, the A90D is RULER FLAT on sound signature alone. It's just utterly uncoloured, clean sound. But at the same time it also has no flavour of any sort. 

So... The slight warmth on the D90SE at least gave it some form of musical life. 

It definitely could use some help with a warmer source to balance out that ruler flatness.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Personally, this sound science stuff is of no use to me.  I just ignore it; problem solved.  I’m not sure why people think it means anything. Are these measurements even valid, in terms of the “sound quality” construct?  I get that they are reliable, but I don’t think they are actually measuring the aspects of sound quality that are important to me.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

GuiltyRocker said:


> I am going to have to get a Chi-Fi Topping D90SE to hear for myself what the fuss is about, 😂.  This is going to be fun.



Just make sure one thing is for certain, they are both level matched perfectly. slight variations can make big differences In the perceived sound quality. I think you'll be shocked how tiny the differences are if any, a real eye opener for me this past few weeks, ive just chosen a £160 dac over a £2000 one.


----------



## Rin1990 (Sep 6, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> Personally, this sound science stuff is of no use to me.  I just ignore it; problem solved.  I’m not sure why people think it means anything. Are these measurements even valid, in terms of the “sound quality” construct?  I get that they are reliable, but I don’t think they are actually measuring the aspects of sound quality that are important to me.


Try telling that to the objectivists.

They'll just dismiss you with the whole "if the measurements are not there, your brains are just playing tricks on you". and whatnot.

It's always their opinion or nothing. And this is why I cannot stand objectivists. They will just pass off their judgment as the one to follow and absolutely shove everything else, as if they are the only voice that matters.

Also, Amir from ASR just seem like a one-person-dictator running his website. If you disagree with him on anything he'll just shove you right back with passive aggressive tones and his followers/members would just dogpile on you mercilessly. That website is such a cult despite numerous claims that they're not a cult community.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Ciggavelli said:


> Personally, this sound science stuff is of no use to me.  I just ignore it; problem solved.  I’m not sure why people think it means anything. Are these measurements even valid, in terms of the “sound quality” construct?  I get that they are reliable, but I don’t think they are actually measuring the aspects of sound quality that are important to me.



Pretty much all these measurements are doing stuff all below audible threshold. The best way is to AB test (honestly) and listen for yourself, problem is you might not like what you hear.


----------



## Rin1990 (Sep 6, 2022)

AnalogEuphoria said:


> Pretty much all these measurements are doing stuff all below audible threshold. The best way is to AB test (honestly) and listen for yourself, problem is you might not like what you hear.


And the most expensive isn't always the best too. A DAC/Amp or even an IEM can cost like four figures but it's of little point if the sound isn't what you're looking for or what you like. Which is why after thorough testing, I chose the Aune X1S GT over the Topping EX5 as my first desktop DAC amp.


----------



## Tachyon88

Ciggavelli said:


> Personally, this sound science stuff is of no use to me.  I just ignore it; problem solved.  I’m not sure why people think it means anything. Are these measurements even valid, in terms of the “sound quality” construct?  I get that they are reliable, but I don’t think they are actually measuring the aspects of sound quality that are important to me.



I find it extremely entertaining and informative as a casual reader. You have bought everything though ! lol, so maybe measurements don't matter when you're going to buy it all at some point anyways ?


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Rin1990 said:


> Try telling that to the objectivists.
> 
> They'll just dismiss you with the whole "if the measurements are not there, your brains are just playing tricks on you". and whatnot.
> 
> ...


I've seen them gang up on people in the site it's really funny and sad, oh well.


----------



## Rin1990

GuiltyRocker said:


> I've seen them gang up on people in the site it's really funny and sad, oh well.


Which is why I will never join ASR no matter how "reasonable" some of the members are there.

I don't join in this hobby to be some obnoxious sound engineering snob or to be an elitist shoving opinions down others' throat just because of having a bit more knowledge than another person.

I join this hobby to simply enjoy better music sound for my daily basis.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Rin1990 said:


> Which is why I will never join ASR no matter how "reasonable" some of the members are there.
> 
> I don't join in this hobby to be some obnoxious sound engineering snob or to be an elitist shoving opinions down others' throat just because of having a bit more knowledge than another person.
> 
> I join this hobby to simply enjoy better music sound for my daily basis.


That's exactly right


----------



## Ciggavelli

AnalogEuphoria said:


> Pretty much all these measurements are doing stuff all below audible threshold. The best way is to AB test (honestly) and listen for yourself, problem is you might not like what you hear.


AB has its problems too. It’s very easy to tell differences with AB testing, true, but there is something to be said about brain burn in after listening to something over an extended period of time. Like I didn’t like the Susvaras until after I had owned them for 6+ months. They were so complex that I couldn’t appreciate them until my brain got fully used to them. That’s an extreme example, but something to consider.


----------



## jlbrach

Ciggavelli said:


> AB has its problems too. It’s very easy to tell differences with AB testing, true, but there is something to be said about brain burn in after listening to something over an extended period of time. Like I didn’t like the Susvaras until after I had owned them for 6+ months. They were so complex that I couldn’t appreciate them until my brain got fully used to them. That’s an extreme example, but something to consider.


i have had the same experience numerous times with many products...you are exactly right that a/b can tell you things sound different etc but it takes time and effort and different music and so much more to determine what you feel is better


----------



## Sampajanna (Sep 6, 2022)

coopdog said:


> These statements led me to believe the DAVE was superior to other dacs and helped me decide to purchase a DAVE and M-Scaler. I would now like to know whether these statements of superiority were accurate. I know……buyer beware.


I would love to see a picture of your Dave/HMS with today’s date. I highly doubt you own one. I could be wrong and am willing to put my foot in my mouth, but your posts feel like trolling.

@GoldenOne Thank you so much. Your approach is perfect for those of us who don’t want to live in a camp and are open to learning. I have never had any issue with measurements or the discussion of them, just with the attitude at Audio Science Rancor. Real scientists do not ban other scientists who disagree. I recently saw on the TT2 thread over there a gentleman, who is a fan of ASR, calling for civility there and here on Headfi and he was subsequently derided by a mob, including Amir himself who told him repeatedly to “move on,” and all merely for suggesting that conversation be conducted genially….

It is a swirling sea of Rancor and bitterness on ASR, filled with flotsam that will scratch and cut you and disturb your peace of mind… Entering that forum is like joining a mosh pit: You have to enjoy being banged around. If that is your thing, so be it. But they take it out to other forums, pretending to be Dave owners as I suspect this gentleman is doing.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Sampajanna said:


> I would love to see a picture of your Dave/HMS with today’s date. I highly doubt you own one. I could be wrong and am willing to put my foot in my mouth, but your posts feel like trolling.
> 
> @GoldenOne Thank you so much. Your approach is perfect for those of us who don’t want to live in a camp and are open to learning. I have never had any issue with measurements or the discussion of them, just with the attitude at Audio Science Rancor. Real scientists do not ban other scientists who disagree. I recently saw on the TT2 thread over there a gentleman, who is a fan of ASR, calling for civility there and here on Headfi and he was subsequently derided by a mob, including Amir himself who told him repeatedly to “move on,” and all merely for suggesting that conversation be conducted genially….
> 
> It is a swirling sea of Rancor and bitterness on ASR, filled with flotsam that will scratch and cut you and disturb your peace of mind… Entering that forum is like joining a mosh pit: You have to enjoy being banged around. If that is your thing, so be it. But they take it out to other forums, pretending to be Dave owners as I suspect this gentleman is doing.


I have seen that mob run over anyone that doesn't share an opinion, it's really sad stuff.


----------



## Rin1990 (Sep 6, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> I would love to see a picture of your Dave/HMS with today’s date. I highly doubt you own one. I could be wrong and am willing to put my foot in my mouth, but your posts feel like trolling.


Looking briefly at his post history I feel like this person is low-key taking the piss.

He keeps asking things just for the sake of asking and keeps talking about how M Scaler and Dave needs a blind test or whether cables make a difference or not...

You know, the things that most graph heads and maniacs would ask you with pitchforks at ASR generally...

It's super easy to claim that you own a Dave and M Scaler on the internet after all when you're not obliged to show pics of evidence for it since no one can put a gun on your head to prove it.

It's even easier to get a rise out of people claiming you sold both of the fictitious units and say it's a waste of money and express exagerrated happiness owning a $150 DAC and claiming it to beat an entire $15,000 setup.

I've read enough audio drama to see where this head to normally...


----------



## The Jester

Depends on the target group how things are tested/reviewed,
Having a standard suite of tests applied equally and coming up with a simple total applied to a “leaderboard” is fine for what it is,
Interested in a DAC ? Look it up and check measured performance which is normally well beyond hearing and you know the design and implementation is good, then listen to it, or go to other reviews for a more detailed listening opinion,
The one that “raised a flag” for me was the MScaler review, Rob’s “holy grail” for years was implementing a 1 million tap filter but that wasn’t even listened to due to “switching delay” between modes when it’s reason for existing is the 16x 1 million tap performance,
Surely anyone interested in “Hifi” would at least be interested in listening to any component at its optimum setting ?


----------



## Icenine2

I just bought this and someone told me I could have bought a guitar that "plays and sounds just like it for 10% of what I paid?" WHY didn't I trust them?


----------



## Sampajanna (Sep 6, 2022)

If they think Dave is crazy, they would jump off a cliff at what I moved from the Dave to… I have heard all the Chifi stuff. It all sounds similarly bright, analytical and fatiguing. Paired properly it is a GREAT option for a lover of that clarity or for that budget. I have no issues recommending Aune or Topping to buddies. But I would never tell them they need to spend more, nor would I tell those who spend more that they need to spend less and are fools. Many of the buddies I know who are happy with high-end systems are not dumb and do not throw money around needlessly. They are often wealthy because they are careful. Many spent decades researching and putting together their system, slowly. My current system is a decade in the making. The bliss it brings me each and every day can NOT be undermined by any measurements, nor can anyone put a value on that experience other than me. My ears and my money = my choice!


----------



## Rin1990

Sampajanna said:


> If they think Dave is crazy, they would jump off a cliff at what I moved from the Dave to… I have heard all the Chifi stuff. It all sounds similarly bright, analytical and fatiguing. Paired properly it is a GREAT option for a lover of that clarity or for that budget. I have no issues recommending Aune or Topping to buddies. But I would never tell them they need to spend more, nor would I tell those who spend more that they need to spend less and are fools. Many of the buddies I know who are happy with high-end systems are not dumb and do not throw money around needlessly. They are often wealthy because they are careful. Many spent decades researching and putting together their system, slowly. My current system is a decade in the making. The bliss it brings me each and every day can NOT be undermined by any measurements, nor can anyone put a value on that experience other than me. My ears and my money = my choice!


Couldn't have said it better myself.

To be honest I only started tapping into the desktop DAC/Amp territory so my ears are still fairly new to this part of the game (I was more of a dongle/DAP/IEM guy, not really interested in headphones/cans still xD), so maybe the Chi-fi stuffs made me feel like they're all great too. So I probably need a couple more years of experience before I can truly give insightful opinions.

But I will never tell people they're idiots for splurging tens of thousands of dollars to get the sound they want for their setup.


----------



## Ciggavelli

This whole convo is basically that new Darko video about snobs and inverse snobs (if it hasn't been posted yet)


----------



## Sampajanna (Sep 6, 2022)

Was posted already. thanks though. I like the video. I like the call for tolerance And conversation rather than shouting… I think he failed to mention how the inverse snobs throw measurements around and have a very dogmatic approach and understanding that they believe is THE Truth (capital T) and they are its appointed defenders. To me, the sad part is that they miss the point and purpose of music. The mindset they use to approach hifi could arguably help in the purchasing of gear, but is an obstacle to engagement with music. I wonder if hypothetically a person belived in ASR and bought the Chifi only to be disappointed with it and find it fatiguing, whould they then force themselves to like a piece of gear they dont enjoy listening to for long periods because Lord Amir and his measurements say that is what they should be liking? And what if then they bought something that brought them hours of joy but Lord Amir said it was no good (say a Dave for example). Would they then sell it and force themselves to listen to what a computer measurement device says they should like? Or, worse yet, the human interpreting the results of said computer’s measurements?


----------



## Rin1990

Sampajanna said:


> Was posted already. thanks though. I like the video. I like the call for tolerance And conversation rather than shouting… I think he failed to mention how the inverse snobs throw measurements around and have a very dogmatic approach and understanding that they believe is THE Truth (capital T) and they are its appointed defenders. To me, the sad part is that they miss the point and purpose of music. The mindset they use to approach hifi could arguably help in the purchasing of gear, but is an obstacle to engagement with music. I wonder if hypothetically a person belived in ASR and bought the Chifi only to be disappointed with it and find it fatiguing, whould they then force themselves to like a piece of gear they dont enjoy listening to for long periods because Lord Amir and his measurements say that is what they should be liking? And what if then they bought something that brought them hours of joy but Lord Amir said it was no good (say a Dave for example). Would they then sell it and force themselves to listen to what a computer measurement device says they should like? Or, worse yet, the human interpreting the results of said computer’s measurements?


Think of it this way.

Would you rather a machine dictate what sound you like? Or a self proclaimed objectivist savior of sound engineering like Amir dictate what you SHOULD like or you're stigmatized by his sheeps that you're an ignorant peasant for not listening to this one old man? 

Or would you rather just buy what you like and be happy with your music?

Pick one.


----------



## Ciggavelli

jlbrach said:


> i have had the same experience numerous times with many products...you are exactly right that a/b can tell you things sound different etc but it takes time and effort and different music and so much more to determine what you feel is better


I’ve started to take a nihilistic view of upgrades once you reach a certain point. No matter what you buy or improve, you just get used to it and it’s no longer special.  I mean, if you have glaring weaknesses, upgrades are important, but once you’ve fixed everything, you still get used to the sound. Trying another flavor will impress you for a bit, but you then also still just get used to the sound. It’s just chasing the dragon.


----------



## Sampajanna (Sep 6, 2022)

I agree totally. I want to be immersed and lose the upgraditis. I have a fondness for tubes for this reason. I often find that what I crave is just different, not “better” and a change in tube is enough. For cans, a good SS dac like the Dave and a tube amp can be an excellent solution. You can then plug directly into Dave or feed your tube amp from the Dave in dac mode. Such a change will be enough for long term joy, offering you enough difference to provide satisfaction across a wide array of music and also cure your upgraditis…. YMMV That said, I am months into my new dac on the main rig and it has never ceased to blow me away, not a single day. I pinch myself daily! It is not just a little better than Dave. It is a serious move.…


----------



## Ciggavelli (Sep 7, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> I agree totally. I want to be immersed and lose the upgraditis. I have a fondness for tubes for this reason. I often find that what I crave is just different, not “better” and a change in tube is enough. A good SS dac like the Dave and a tube amp can be an excellent solution. You can then plug directly into Dave or feed your tube amp from the Dave in dac mode. Such a change will be enough for long term joy, offering you enough difference to provide satisfaction across a wide array of music and also cure your upgraditis…. YMMV That said, I am months into my new dac on the main rig and it has never ceased to blow me away, not a single day. I pinch myself daily!


Yup, that’s why I pair my mDAVE with a Woo Audio WA33 EE JPS and Woo Audio 3ES Elite.  The only thing I would improve is bass, but I’ve come to realize you can’t emulate a subwoofer in a pair of headphones. The TCs come close, but I still want more (to be fair I only want more bass with one genre, hip-hop. Every other genre is completely fine).  I think I’m ready to “graduate” to speakers, but it’s not possible currently.

Edit: I am curious about a new dac, but what I want is very pricey and I’m not convinced the delta is big enough with only headphones, and I’ll just get used to it after a period of time anyway.


----------



## Rin1990

Regardless of how someone spend their money, anyone claiming an Apple dongle sound better than any other amps for headphones deserve to be kicked out of the community...


----------



## theveterans

Ciggavelli said:


> Yup, that’s why I pair my mDAVE with a Woo Audio WA33 EE JPS and Woo Audio 3ES Elite.  The only thing I would improve is bass, but I’ve come to realize you can’t emulate a subwoofer in a pair of headphones. The TCs come close, but I still want more (to be fair I only want more bass with one genre, hip-hop. Every other genre is completely fine).  I think I’m ready to “graduate” to speakers, but it’s not possible currently.
> 
> Edit: I am curious about a new dac, but what I want is very pricey and I’m not convinced the delta is big enough with only headphones, and I’ll just get used to it after a period of time anyway.



Have you tried the Aperio? Yes it's E-stat but it's hyped to be blackhole deep in bass and dynamic-driver like in the slam. Looking forward to hear the hype myself at CanJam SoCal actually


----------



## Merkurio

Rin1990 said:


> Regardless of how someone spend their money, anyone claiming an Apple dongle sound better than any other amps for headphones deserve to be kicked out of the community...



There’re ultra-sensitive headphones like the AKG K371 that can be fully driven to almost deafening levels with perfectly clear power from an Apple dongle, achieving better audible results than a distorted and noise dominated multi-thousand OTL amplifier, so your reductionism isn’t as brilliant as you think.

Deeply ignorance is what it should be kicked out of the community, because their harmful effect.


----------



## Ciggavelli

theveterans said:


> Have you tried the Aperio? Yes it's E-stat but it's hyped to be blackhole deep in bass and dynamic-driver like in the slam. Looking forward to hear the hype myself at CanJam SoCal actually


I’ve been curious about it actually, but I’ve heard soundstage depth is not good, which is import to me. I have the Shangri-La Sr, which I absolutely love. If it had more sub bass, which the Aperio might have, it could be nice. I don’t like that you can’t use other headphones with it, and you can’t use the headphones with other amps though. And the bass I want is not so much slam, but sub bass extension (maybe even bloomy). 

I’d love to try it out though. I want to go to that headphone store in the Netherlands and try out the HE-1, Aperio, and the Shangri-La Sr with the amp (I only have the headphones).  I do think a CanJam is in my future though. I’ll have to fly for it, but I think it would be worth it.


----------



## Rin1990 (Sep 7, 2022)

Merkurio said:


> There’re ultra-sensitive headphones like the AKG K371 that can be fully driven to almost deafening levels with perfectly clear power from an Apple dongle, achieving better audible results than a distorted and noise dominated multi-thousand OTL amplifier, so your reductionism isn’t as brilliant as you think.
> 
> Deeply ignorance is what it should be kicked out of the community, because their harmful effect.


I mean fair point but how many uses that particular headphone?

But I think the better question is how many does this statement spoke to? How good can the sound go with different gears? Surely an Apple Dongle cannot be the be all end all solution even for those efficient headphones/IEMs.

I just don't want people completely ignore the performance of the more expensive gear that a handful of owners use and dismiss them for being wasteful idiots.

I think what I'm trying to phrase here is what if people demand a bit more from their headphones?  What about those with headphones like Susvara or Arya?

Unless you want to tell me a mere Apple dongle can also drive those to acceptably good the same way as that one particular AKG model...

You know, with that whole "power is power" objectivist nonsense that ASR won't stop banging people's heads for...

Also, naming only one example of a hyper-sensitive headphone doesn't exactly dismiss the necessity for many, many other harder-to-drive high impedance headphones now, does it?


----------



## theveterans

Ciggavelli said:


> I’ve been curious about it actually, but I’ve heard soundstage depth is not good, which is import to me. I have the Shangri-La Sr, which I absolutely love. If it had more sub bass, which the Aperio might have, it could be nice. I don’t like that you can’t use other headphones with it, and you can’t use the headphones with other amps though. And the bass I want is not so much slam, but sub bass extension (maybe even bloomy).
> 
> I’d love to try it out though. I want to go to that headphone store in the Netherlands and try out the HE-1, Aperio, and the Shangri-La Sr with the amp (I only have the headphones).  I do think a CanJam is in my future though. I’ll have to fly for it, but I think it would be worth it.



That's the only thing that's negative about it. From what I've seen though unlike the Bravura amp, the Aperio amp does not convert back the analog inputs to digital so you can use the DAVE DAC without altering its original sound.


----------



## Rin1990

coopdog said:


> Thanks for your response. No need to reply. Your explanation speaks for itself. You ignore the fact that Amir compared the DX7 pro+ with the DAVE using the exact same parameters and settings and the Topping measured better. I know…..you can ‘hear’ that the DAVE is better. You should have known that I meant the DX7 pro+ and not the D90SE in regard to measured noise floor modulation. I mean this sincerely: I wish I had your hearing abilities.


...are you sure you're not just trying to stir the pot while doing this for ASR's amusement?


----------



## ZappaMan

GuiltyRocker said:


> The ASR website has a clear bias against higher-priced equipment, another conflict of interest i keep seeing is companies like Topping sending the equipment directly to him to measure, clearly this presents opportunities to cherry pick, do you take in equipment from members to measure?  Perhaps it's time another party like you that can be trusted take in equipment purchased at retail to verify these outlandish claims.


Without having the configurations, we can’t try to replicate any of this “science”. 
I think if the configurations are not produced we should just drop the whole sorry story of Amir.


----------



## Rin1990 (Sep 7, 2022)

ZappaMan said:


> Without having the configurations, we can’t try to replicate any of this “science”.
> I think if the configurations are not produced we should just drop the whole sorry story of Amir.


I think it's probably best to just drop the mention of Amir and ASR entirely, period.

Because there will never be a fully agreeable answer on both sides. And any objectivists lurking around here would try to defend Lord Amir till death do them apart so what even is the point of anything? 

It's always the mentality of "Either with us or against us" when it comes to them. So...there's really no room for any healthy discussions to be had, if at all.


----------



## Rob Watts

GuiltyRocker said:


> @Rob Watts  Just wondering, if you wanted to cherry pick, couldn't you get a unit to perform perfectly under the bench using certain parts and process to just measure highly in SINAD and other measurements like linearity and multi-tone tests if you didn't care about the sound?



Not really. DACs that measure very well do it by design, so sensitivity to problems are naturally reduced - if you can remove all the issues, in the end you are left with Nyquist noise, and amp distortion which are both very consistent from unit to unit.



flyte3333 said:


> Hi Rob. I guess the objectivists will ask if these differences ("significantly audible") would be as significant if you did the testing blind ?
> 
> And if you you can't pick out these differences in blind testing, then are they real?
> 
> ...



Blind testing has it's place - particularly if the components are neutrally identified (listen to this, or listen to that and describe the differences). And I use that a lot when something occurs that makes no rational sense, and I want anothers opinion to sanity check my observations. But the minute it's unidentified, then sensitivity falls apart - you are trying to work out what you are listening to, rather than the differences. And any stress is a sensitivity killer.  



coopdog said:


> Thank you for the post @Rob Watts
> 
> My question remains why the Topping has better noise floor modulation measurements than the DAVE. Are you saying that Amir manipulated the measurement to show that result? The fact that the DAVE’s performance on that metric was partly responsible for its sonic superiority is one of the reason’s I purchased the DAVE. I don’t want to feel like time has caught up with the DAVE and that more modern designs have surpassed it. Please clarify why Amir achieved the result he did, and if his results have not been manipulated, are you planning a new DAVE to compete with more modern designs?
> 
> thnx



Dave has no measurable noise floor modulation (independently confirmed by GoldenOne). If someone measures it and sees noise floor modulation then they are not doing the test correctly. You can't use the AP defaults to do this test, as that will give the incorrect results. For instance - turning off the signal is done by setting the 1kHz level to -999dB. You must also ensure that nothing changes within the AP, so the input levels must be fixed at say 2.5v for both measurements. If you are using the high performance sine analyser ADC you need to ensure the frequency is fixed too.



flyte3333 said:


> Fair points but just a note - @GoldenOne measured DAVE + M-Scaler too and had similar measurements to ASR, both with APx555 ...
> 
> So if ASR rigged his Dave measurements to be less then 'state of the art', then the same question could be asked of GoldenOne?
> 
> I don't think there's any rigging in their Chord measurements to be honest.



I like GoldenOne's approach. He comes across as careful, intelligent and considered. He so far to me seems to be motivated by getting to the truth.  



GoldenOne said:


> - Neither I nor Amir were able to achieve the same harmonic distortion results as Rob Watts. And I don't think I've ever seen a DAC with ALL harmonics below -145dB relative to the fundamental. So I am unsure how RW got these results.



I am also very puzzled as to why I have always gotten consistent ultra low distortion results with multiple Daves over several years, but yours were over 10 times worse. If you get another Dave, and don't replicate my results, then send me a PM so we can get to the bottom of it.


----------



## paulrbarnard

Sampajanna said:


> I agree totally. I want to be immersed and lose the upgraditis. I have a fondness for tubes for this reason. I often find that what I crave is just different, not “better” and a change in tube is enough. For cans, a good SS dac like the Dave and a tube amp can be an excellent solution. You can then plug directly into Dave or feed your tube amp from the Dave in dac mode. Such a change will be enough for long term joy, offering you enough difference to provide satisfaction across a wide array of music and also cure your upgraditis…. YMMV That said, I am months into my new dac on the main rig and it has never ceased to blow me away, not a single day. I pinch myself daily! It is not just a little better than Dave. It is a serious move.…


This is so true. My setup is DAVE plus a tube amp and most of the time I find the tube amp to be the one I want to listen to. Every now and then I’ll move the headphone jack over to the DAVE and spend a day or two with it there enjoying the ‘better’ sounds. It is the subtle difference in perception that make the brain fizz with enjoyment rather than the actual sound itself. My thought is that we are predisposed to look for change and enjoy discovering those differences. It was probably a significant selector in our evolutionary path.  
So if I’m getting blasé with my system and feel like something is missing or could be better I simply move the headphone jack and the magic starts all over again.


----------



## flyte3333

Rob Watts said:


> Blind testing has it's place - particularly if the components are neutrally identified (listen to this, or listen to that and describe the differences). And I use that a lot when something occurs that makes no rational sense, and I want anothers opinion to sanity check my observations. But the minute it's unidentified, then sensitivity falls apart - you are trying to work out what you are listening to, rather than the differences. And any stress is a sensitivity killer.


Thanks Rob. But sighted listening surely has it's issues too? The objectivists argue they are quite major and can't be relied on ?


----------



## Kentajalli

flyte3333 said:


> Thanks Rob. But sighted listening surely has it's issues too? The objectivists argue they are quite major and can't be relied on ?


If I understand RW, he is saying that blind tests are required to identify an issue's existence .
Then a sighted one is required to scrutinize the issue.
It is not a question of one or the other. Both are used hand in hand at R&D level .


----------



## JTbbb

GoldenOne said:


> It depends.
> The big factor is dynamic range. And in most circumstances, you want to do the volume control with the device that has the highest dynamic range.
> If your DAC has say 120dB dynamic range, but your preamp has 140dB, then in theory you can attenuate by up to 20dB using the preamp before losing any actual dynamic range across the whole chain.
> 
> However if you attenuate at the DAC you're losing dynamic range immediately.


Hello there, if I may pic your brain on this subject?

I have Dave and a Feliks Envy tube amp. Unfortunately I physically cannot adjust the Envy’s volume control, but I can adjust the Dave’s volume using the remote.

I have the Envy volume set at a point which allows comfortable listening volume with Dave at -10db, (in DAC mode Dave is set at -3db) and then adjust accordingly depending on the loudness of the recording.

I know that the signal path for Dave, whether in DAC or Pre-Amp mode, is identical. So my question is, am I losing dynamic range? It has elsewhere been suggested that one or the other should be set at max volume and adjust the volume on the other, to gain full dynamic range. But surely, if I did this, I would have so little volume control it would be unusable.

I have to say I am extremely happy with the sound quality, and wonder, if there is a technical advantage, that I would hear it.

Your Thoughts Please


----------



## Kentajalli

JTbbb said:


> I have the Envy volume set at a point which allows comfortable listening volume with Dave at -10db, (in DAC mode Dave is set at -3db) and then adjust accordingly depending on the loudness of the recording.


Your tube amp is unlikely to have a dynamic range higher than DAVE. I suggest you put it on* low gain* first, turn up the volume to a level, that you hear *no noise* with your headphones, so when nothing is playing you only have silence. Use balanced output of DAVE to connect to the balanced input of your amp.
Now use Dave's volume control.


JTbbb said:


> I know that the signal path for Dave, whether in DAC or Pre-Amp mode, is identical. So my question is, am I losing dynamic range?


Technically yes, you could be, the above should afford you max. dynamic range


JTbbb said:


> It has elsewhere been suggested that one or the other should be set at max volume and adjust the volume on the other, to gain full dynamic range. But surely, if I did this, I would have so little volume control it would be unusable.
> I have to say I am extremely happy with the sound quality, and wonder, if there is a technical advantage, that I would hear it.


*The above is my answer in the interim, till goldensound replies.*


----------



## flyte3333 (Sep 7, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> Dave has no measurable noise floor modulation (independently confirmed by GoldenOne). If someone measures it and sees noise floor modulation then they are not doing the test correctly. You can't use the AP defaults to do this test, as that will give the incorrect results. For instance - turning off the signal is done by setting the 1kHz level to -999dB. You must also ensure that nothing changes within the AP, so the input levels must be fixed at say 2.5v for both measurements. If you are using the high performance sine analyser ADC you need to ensure the frequency is fixed too.



Hi @Rob Watts how useful is this single tone test compared to multitone (which better represents music?)

Are you saying that none of your DACs show any measurable noise floor modulation even with multitone tests?

@GoldenOne measured Dave's multitone and it interestingly shows a similar shape as ASR's multitone for Dave (noise and/or distortion higher in bass frequencies)

The single tone seems not practical, when you think about music ?

These plots are bettered by many DACs today (APx555 measurements)










Check this out !


----------



## SoupRKnowva

When it comes to volume control, I would caution against too much of a focus on dynamic range, just as we would all caution against too much of a focus on SINAD to judge a dac or amp.

With a well implemented digital volume control, such as on the Dave, you might lose some theoretical dynamic range, but there are a few counter points. One, most recordings don't have anywhere near that much dynamic range. the second, and main point to me, is that the addition of any pre, will necessitate a loss of transparency vs driving an amp direct with the Dave. Even using a high end passive such as a goldpoint, very close to my amp, there is a noticeably drop in sound quality vs wiring it direct. But as with all things, it will depend on your preferences and what you value most, so I would tell people to try it out for themselves.

Personally I am usually running Dave at roughly -40 to -30db depending on album, and I would gladly do that instead of run a pre.


----------



## Kentajalli (Sep 7, 2022)

flyte3333 said:


> Hi @Rob Watts how useful is this single tone test compared to multitone (which better represents music?)


May _better _represent music, but as a whole it does not. When was the last time, any music had as much bass voltage, midrange voltage and treble voltage all at the same time? try never!
Usually music is all Bass, and from there the levels drop massively, what you see on a spectrum analyser is a weighted display, in reality it would be all bass, and very little after that.


flyte3333 said:


> Are you saying that none of your DACs show any measurable noise floor modulation even with multitone tests?
> @GoldenOne measured Dave's multitone and it interestingly shows a similar shape as ASR's multitone for Dave (noise and/or distortion higher in bass frequencies)
> The single tone seems not practical, when you think about music ?
> These plots are bettered by many DACs today (APx555 measurements)


For clarity, _Noise Floor Modulation _is a different phenomenon. it has nothing to do with noise floor, or noise amount. It is a situation, when noise floor dynamically dances with music, what ever the steady state levels were.
Going back to your graphs, are the levels bettered by many DACs? let's see:
- to begin with it is misleading publishing a graph and claim, there it is, cast in stone!
However, let's look at ASR's results. You provided one graph that shows something, fine, here is another from ASR:
Compare them, do they look alike?



 



When ASR measures and produces some graphs, as evidence to prove one thing, should they re-measure the same device to prove another issue, the graphs may not match, sometimes!
I am not accusing ASR of cooking their results, NO, some measurements can not be recreated, there are many variables, many settings and conditions on the measuring equipment.
Look at the graph with minimal noise floor, there is a tiny spike at what I reckon is 60Hz (mains hum?), but it does not exist on the other graph! but then it reappears on multi-tone tests.
It seems that DAVE has one, single 4th order distortion spike at -142dB on one graph only, and the rest are indeed at roughly -150dB, yet _that _has been picked on as evidence.
I leave it to you to search for Goldensound's recent noise-modulation result on DAVE.

Bottom line! DAVE is now 7 or more years old, designed probably a few years prior, ask yourself, even taking the worst case scenario, Is it still neck and neck with Toppings new TOTL product that has just been released??
Worst case scenario!
And that is just from a handful of measurements - if you ever get a chance, try listening to them side by side.
I have, and still do! I have a Topping DX7 pro (not the latest plus) and my Hugo2 is honestly superior. You think I am biased? why should I be? I already have both, love them both, the Topping is very good, but Hugo2 has the upper hand.


flyte3333 said:


> Check this out !


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Kentajalli said:


> May _better _represent music, but as a whole it does not. When was the last time, any music had as much bass voltage, midrange voltage and treble voltage all at the same time? try never!
> Usually music is all Bass, and from there the levels drop massively, what you see on a spectrum analyser is a weighted display, in reality it would be all bass, and very little after that.
> 
> For clarity, _Noise Floor Modulation _is a different phenomenon. it has nothing to do with noise floor, or noise amount. It is a situation, when noise floor dynamically dances with music, what ever the steady state levels were.
> ...


Excellent.


----------



## GoldenOne

flyte3333 said:


> how useful is this single tone test compared to multitone (which better represents music?)


The main thing that is beneficial about the single tone test is you can clearly see the harmonic structure. Is it 2nd order/3rd order dominated etc, how far out to the higher level harmonics go.
This is hard to discern on the multitone test


----------



## Icenine2

Anybody buy this? I already own two versions of this but Positive Feeback is giving it the ultimate yes.
Miles Davis - Kind Of Blue (Pure DSD) DSD256​


----------



## flyte3333

Kentajalli said:


> For clarity, _Noise Floor Modulation _is a different phenomenon. it has nothing to do with noise floor, or noise amount. It is a situation, when noise floor dynamically dances with music, what ever the steady state levels were.
> Going back to your graphs, are the levels bettered by many DACs? let's see:
> - to begin with it is misleading publishing a graph and claim, there it is, cast in stone!
> However, let's look at ASR's results. You provided one graph that shows something, fine, here is another from ASR:
> Compare them, do they look alike?


My entire post was about multitone measurements but the graphs you are showing is single tone, so not really relevant to what I was discussing/asking Rob.


----------



## flyte3333

Kentajalli said:


> May _better _represent music, but as a whole it does not. When was the last time, any music had as much bass voltage, midrange voltage and treble voltage all at the same time? try never!


So multitone test is a much tougher test than single tone?

That other DACs do better than Dave, per multitone plot I showed?


----------



## theveterans

flyte3333 said:


> So multitone test is a much tougher test than single tone?
> 
> That other DACs do better than Dave, per multitone plot I showed?



No difference between multitone and single tone even at 500 test tones. It's better to test single tone to see the harmonics which multitone just completely masks which GoldenOne already covered



> The main thing that is beneficial about the single tone test is you can clearly see the harmonic structure. Is it 2nd order/3rd order dominated etc, how far out to the higher level harmonics go.
> This is hard to discern on the multitone test


----------



## flyte3333

Deleted double post


----------



## flyte3333

theveterans said:


> No difference between multitone and single tone even at 500 test tones.


@GoldenOne's (and ASRs) plots both in     Post #22,454 of 22,463     show a clear difference , increasing noise/distortion with multitone ?

What do you mean by "no difference" ?


----------



## GoldenOne (Sep 8, 2022)

flyte3333 said:


> @GoldenOne's (and ASRs) plots both in     Post #22,454 of 22,463     show a clear difference , increasing noise/distortion with multitone ?
> 
> What do you mean by "no difference" ?


This isn't actually a result of multitone, it's just different harmonic distortion at different frequencies. The same results can be shown using a single sine sweep.

Here's THD+N vs Freq on the DAVE:




Here's multitone:



Same thing on other devices. For example here's the Crane Song Solaris:








As a result, it can be very important to check either of these measurements, as the 1khz test will NOT show the way distortion changes depending on frequency. But it's not the fact that it's multitone or a more complex signal that is actually causing the difference.


Another one that can be important to check is distortion vs output level: 



(Bel Canto DAC EX1)


----------



## flyte3333

GoldenOne said:


> Here's multitone:


Yes that's the exact plot I showed in      Post #22,454 of 22,465    

Comparing to:


----------



## Kentajalli (Sep 8, 2022)

flyte3333 said:


> These plots are bettered by many DACs today (APx555 measurements)






Either I didn't explain myself well enough, or you didn't get my meaning,
OR you are deflecting.
Look at your graphs, (stretched or otherwise scaled to match each other) one is from one site, the other from another.
And if I am not mistaken, both are 24/192 kHz, USB in, XLR out.
Do they look alike? If you didn't know they were from the same device, would you have guessed it?
Different days, different variables, different .....  . . . graphs!


----------



## flyte3333

Kentajalli said:


> Either I didn't explain myself well enough, or you didn't get my meaning,
> OR you are deflecting.
> Look at your graphs, (stretched or otherwise scaled to match each other) one is from one site, the other from another.
> And if I am not mistaken, both are 24/192 kHz, USB in, XLR out.
> ...



I really don't follow you're point - compare both of those plots in your post, to      Post #22,466 of 22,467


----------



## simorag (Sep 8, 2022)

I would have never thought I was going to miss the good ol' deathly boring discussion about DAVE PSU, batteries, ferrites and various RFI gremlin warfare tactics, but the last several pages of this thread made me change my mind ...


----------



## GuiltyRocker

People are obsessed with taking down the DAVE, the graphs keep coming and the "science" discussion keeps going even though there is a science thread at Head-fi, the Chi-Fi stuff is driving people nuts.  😂


----------



## Kentajalli

flyte3333 said:


> I really don't follow you're point - compare both of those plots in your post, to      Post #22,466 of 22,467


Those are the graphs, you provided, I just resized them for easy comparison.
Forget about my previous posts for one minute, please.
The two graphs that YOU quoted, are from DAVE, done at 24/192 USB in XLR out.
They show two different noise patterns, do you agree?
All I am saying is that graphs obtained by different people on different days, may have other variables applied, that would make them different.
You can not claim, this new such a DAC has this graph, look!, look!, so it is better.
It is not as simple as that.
Remember this from Hugo2's review? , compare it to the edit Amir made on the same review a few weeks later.




 


Just wait till Amir sees that statement I just made, and tell me off on ASR!
God help me.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Kentajalli said:


> Those are the graphs, you provided, I just resized them for easy comparison.
> Forget about my previous posts for one minute, please.
> The two graphs that YOU quoted, are from DAVE, done at 24/192 USB in XLR out.
> They show two different noise patterns, do you agree?
> ...


It's crazy stuff, wow.


----------



## flyte3333 (Sep 8, 2022)

Kentajalli said:


> They show two different noise patterns, do you agree?


Of course they are slightly different - I never said they are identical?

Both show higher noise/distortion in bass frequencies - that's my point.

Nobody is saying numbers are equivalent?

You seem to be thinking I said something different, but hopefully I cleared that up?

The plot I showed in  post      Post #22,466 of 22,467    shows a non-Chord DAC with much much better multitone peformance than Dave, Hugo2, Mojo2

*Note Hugo TT2 shows excellent multitone performance.*


----------



## thePhones

simorag said:


> ferrites


… b b but you need them, trust me


----------



## Kentajalli

flyte3333 said:


> Of course they are slightly different - I never said they are identical?
> 
> Both show higher noise/distortion in bass frequencies - that's my point.
> 
> ...


Graphs are unreliable.
That was my point.


----------



## flyte3333 (Sep 8, 2022)

Kentajalli said:


> Graphs are unreliable.
> That was my point.



Yes, we cannot rely on graphs


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

flyte3333 said:


> Yes, we cannot rely on graphs



We can not rely on our ears either, this whole thing is very stressful when all it should be is about enjoying music.


----------



## Icenine2

You know when you run into someone you've not seen forever/awhile and they just monologue on and on...........and finally they ask: "well, after so long you don't have much to say.......................?" Someone let me know when this all ends.........


----------



## GuiltyRocker

True


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Icenine2 said:


> You know when you run into someone you've not seen forever/awhile and they just monologue on and on...........and finally they ask: "well, after so long you don't have much to say.......................?" Someone let me know when this all ends.........


Ahahahahahhahahahaha


----------



## GryphonGuy

GuiltyRocker said:


> People are obsessed with taking down the DAVE, ...



It's called the tall poppy syndrome. Some people cannot handle having one poppy in the field taller than the rest so they have to cut it down or even out. Then they feel order has returned.

I don't give a rat's a... about the measurements. My DAVE is satisfying, mesmerizing and awe inspiring to listen to. Hats off to the designer and the company willing to back its development. After all these years it's still head and shoulders above the competition (the tall poppy) and the focus of the detractors with their graphs trying to create a novel to cut it down. Knock your socks off! It won't change the sound or exemplary ownership experience of my DAVE one bit.

Regards
GG


----------



## GuiltyRocker

GryphonGuy said:


> It's called the tall poppy syndrome. Some people cannot handle having one poppy in the field taller than the rest so they have to cut it down or even out. Then they feel order has returned.
> 
> I don't give a rat's a... about the measurements. My DAVE is satisfying, mesmerizing and awe inspiring to listen to. Hats off to the designer and the company willing to back its development. After all these years it's still head and shoulders above the competition (the tall poppy) and the focus of the detractors with their graphs trying to create a novel to cut it down. Knock your socks off! It won't change the sound or exemplary ownership experience of my DAVE one bit.
> 
> ...


That's a nice way to put it.  😂


----------



## Triode User

.


flyte3333 said:


> These plots are bettered by many DACs today (APx555 measurements)


But the trouble is that those ‘many’ DACs simply do not sound as good as Dave. The ability to produce the plots is perhaps more akin to a party trick which has been mastered by the designers who wish to exploit the reliance by some on a simplistic Sinad league table.



AnalogEuphoria said:


> We can not rely on our ears either, this whole thing is very stressful when all it should be is about enjoying music.


But when the graphs are a distant memory and you are sat down at home with your new dac to listen to a few albums it is only your ears which you actually can rely on to tell you if you are enjoying the music. Or do you keep having to rummage through a few graphs to reassure you that you have bought the ‘right’ dac?




Icenine2 said:


> Someone let me know when this all ends.........


This thread will be a better place when the graphs brigade have got bored and moved on.


----------



## Malcyg

I posted this elsewhere, but I know that ‘noise’ is something that a lot of us wrestle with so am re-posting here as well in case it is of any value to any Dave owners.



Malcyg said:


> I can fully understand why people don’t believe in cables, especially power cables. I too used to think the notion of a big, chunky and expensive power cable was ridiculous. What I don’t understand is why people who think that way feel at liberty to constantly berate those who do value cables and to constantly point out the folly of their belief. It seems to me akin to an atheist standing outside a Church, Mosque or Temple and shouting at the people who go in, telling them that they are stupid and wrong in their beliefs. And doing it every single day. Why bother? And why does it bother you so much? Leave them alone and get a life.
> 
> I don’t believe anybody seriously sets out intent on spending money on power cables, certainly I was very resistant to the idea for a long while. Still am to a degree, especially at the prices of the really exotic stuff. It just seemed such a waste of money that could be better spent elsewhere.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kentajalli

Triode User said:


> But when the graphs are a distant memory and you are sat down at home with your new dac* to listen to a few albums it is only your ears which you actually can rely on* to tell you if you are enjoying the music. Or do you keep having to rummage through a few graphs to reassure you that you have bought the ‘right’ dac?


+1


----------



## Hubert H

paulrbarnard said:


> I do use the Genelec volume control which is via the GLM. That is not dependent on digital input. I use the DAVE in DAC mode and feed line out to the Genelecs. My thinking is that I get the sound I like from the DAVE so putting that analogue in to the speakers ensures the sound I get at my ears, after the GLM has done it’s part, is still the sound I like. The whole point of the  Genelec speakers with GLM is to get as close to perfect transparency at your ears as possible.  In other words they transfer the DAVE sound exactly as the DAVE does with headphones.


Understood but my point was that the Genelecs always digitise an analogue input using the built in ADC, therefore it’s always going to be worse than a digital signal in. They have to digitise in order to apply the volume and DSP.

It might just be worth trying digital in and comparing.

One issue I have with the Genelecs is that one ideally needs a digital interface with multiple and various inputs and possibly a volume control.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Triode User said:


> But when the graphs are a distant memory and you are sat down at home with your new dac to listen to a few albums it is only your ears which you actually can rely on to tell you if you are enjoying the music. Or do you keep having to rummage through a few graphs to reassure you that you have bought the ‘right’ dac?



Many people do otherwise this whole measurements ordeal would have no attention. Its already been proven over and over that the human brain can be easily tricked so at this point I think it comes down to do you take the red or blue pill?


----------



## zeluiz22 (Sep 9, 2022)

Isn’t perception reality when we’re dealing with how the senses perceive things? 

What I’d love to see is Amir rating products objectively first and measuring second.


----------



## JamieMcC

AnalogEuphoria said:


> Many people do otherwise this whole measurements ordeal would have no attention. Its already been proven over and over that the human brain can be easily tricked so at this point I think it comes down to do you take the red or blue pill?



Personally I don't think that's the case it's just a tiny minority imo

As I see it folk interested in audio with the means and who are willing to invest and see value in the purchase of a five figure plus DAC will most likely have traveled a long path up to that point they are making informed choices based on years in the hobby and how they personally like to enjoy music.

Those and there will be many who purchase    such expensive components  for clients who have second homes yachts jets etc do so because they are looking for a premium product for wealthy clients and it doesn't matter how good a Chifi product sounds your wealthy customer is not going to want a $500 budget built product that looks cheap is cheap and feels like cr#p.to interact with in their penthouse apartment or learjet.

There is a place for measurements and without doubt Chifi continues to push the envelope with regards to value vrs performance but I feel many of those who can afford premium or aspirational products could not give a flying fig about charts or budget Chifi.

Folk with limited budgets worry about comparing charts and getting the best value for their cash are interested in charts and comparing specifications to the minute detail probably most of us here have done that at one time or the other in the past or still do 😁

Those fortunate enough to have deep pockets just buy what they like and have more important things to do with their lives than spend hours posting on bullet boards.

The trolls who seem to have endless spare time posting on bulletin BBs might wish to spend a moment to reflect on the above.


----------



## paulrbarnard

Hubert H said:


> Understood but my point was that the Genelecs always digitise an analogue input using the built in ADC, therefore it’s always going to be worse than a digital signal in. They have to digitise in order to apply the volume and DSP.
> 
> It might just be worth trying digital in and comparing.
> 
> One issue I have with the Genelecs is that one ideally needs a digital interface with multiple and various inputs and possibly a volume control.


So you know for a fact that the Genelec A to D sucks?
Looking at measurements from various sources the transfer function of analogue input to sound output is near perfect.
The point you are missing is that the Genelec is not doing upsampling of the digital input when using the analogue input (that I am aware of). That’s what I am relying on the DAVE to do, it being one of its strengths.


----------



## Triode User

AnalogEuphoria said:


> Many people do otherwise this whole measurements ordeal would have no attention. Its already been proven over and over that the human brain can be easily tricked so at this point I think it comes down to do you take the red or blue pill?


The human brain can just as easily be tricked by a few graphs into thinking a dac sounds good when in reality it sounds fair to rubbish (this obviously on the basis that the graphs do NOT tell the whole story).

I prefer not to take either pill because that implies self deception either way. I prefer buying a dac based on how it sounds. I bought my Dave soon after it was released without even looking at any graphs or measurements and I have yet to hear anything better. I have bought my power amps, speakers, streamer, switch and usb reclocker all based on home trials without looking at a single measurement. The same goes for my Mscaler purchase.

Basically I'm with @JamieMcC, I have better things to do with my life than pour over graphs especially when I do not think they are relevant to the final sound anyway. This conclusion is based on my personal experiences of buying hifi gear for the last 50 years!


----------



## Merkurio (Sep 9, 2022)

Triode User said:


> *I prefer not to take either pill because that implies self deception either way*. I prefer buying a dac based on how it sounds. I bought my Dave soon after it was released without even looking at any graphs or measurements and I have yet to hear anything better*.* I have bought my power amps, speakers, streamer, switch and usb reclocker all based on home trials without looking at a single measurement. The same goes for my Mscaler purchase.



But actually you've already done it.

You didn't spontaneously gain audio knowledge from one day to another nor discover Chord by chance knowing absolutely nothing about the brand previously, we all start by learning from other people's opinions (including the marketing claims from manufacturers themselves) and from that precise moment your subconscious is already working to alter the perception of your senses —hearing in this case—, what we normally know as biases.

In the same way that someone can be fooled by thinking that something sounds better because the numbers and graphs objectively prove it, as you criticize, they can also (and with much more ease) be fooled into thinking that something sounds better just because of their previous expectations about the prestige of a brand, subjective opinions of other buyers, reviews, etc. This is where the relevance of controlled blind tests comes into play, to confront brain stimuli biases with reality.

Only people with a false sense of high confidence (also know as Dunning-Kruger effect) could deny that their perception is not biased by multiple factors outside of their control, especially knowing how easy it is to fool our brain:



If you can trick the brain in a matter of minutes into accepting a fake limb as its own and stop feeling the real thing, what can we expect after years of subconsciously reading nonsense like DACs must have their own sound signatures?


----------



## Frankie D

Merkurio said:


> But actually you've already done it.
> 
> You didn't spontaneously gain audio knowledge from one day to another nor discover Chord by chance knowing absolutely nothing about the brand previously, we all start by learning from other people's opinions (including the marketing claims from manufacturers themselves) and from that precise moment your subconscious is already working to alter the perception of your senses —hearing in this case—, what we normally know as biases.
> 
> ...



I am not saying you are incorrect, but I do feel the video is somewhat misleading.  At no time do they only stroke the rubber hand.  So of course the person will make the inference.  I had thought they were going to only stroke the rubber hand at some point, and the person would feel it.  That would have been even more scary to me.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Merkurio said:


> But actually you've already done it.
> 
> You didn't spontaneously gain audio knowledge from one day to another nor discover Chord by chance knowing absolutely nothing about the brand previously, we all start by learning from other people's opinions (including the marketing claims from manufacturers themselves) and from that precise moment your subconscious is already working to alter the perception of your senses —hearing in this case—, what we normally know as biases.
> 
> ...



I discovered Chord this way, I had no idea what it was at all, or who Rob Watts was.  Funny that the Qutest is what I listened to and in the store I listened to it was the cheaper DAC around, i auditioned many others there at 10k or above and the Qutest smoked them all.
We switched them back and forth because I couldn't believe what I was hearing, it was better in every way than all the other DACs and it was the cheapest!


----------



## Rin1990

Are we really continuing the discussion of blind test in this hobby? 

Why does it matter if one can hear the difference or not when the one questioning someone's hearing ability would not like the answer regardless of how the explaination is presented?


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Rin1990 said:


> Are we really continuing the discussion of blind test in this hobby?
> 
> Why does it matter if one can hear the difference or not when the one questioning someone's hearing ability would not like the answer regardless of how the explaination is presented?


Very true, I'll just go and enjoy my Qutest/M scaler.


----------



## Rin1990

GuiltyRocker said:


> Very true, I'll just go and enjoy my Qutest/M scaler.


That's for the best.

This may sound a bit rude but at this point I couldn't care less. Graph crusaders can cram their measurement graphs up their own buttocks for all I care because no one can have a conversation when all one side care is push their objectivist opinions and agendas down another's throat.


----------



## number1sixerfan (Sep 9, 2022)

Merkurio said:


> But actually you've already done it.
> 
> You didn't spontaneously gain audio knowledge from one day to another nor discover Chord by chance knowing absolutely nothing about the brand previously, we all start by learning from other people's opinions (including the marketing claims from manufacturers themselves) and from that precise moment your subconscious is already working to alter the perception of your senses —hearing in this case—, what we normally know as biases.
> 
> In the same way that someone can be fooled by thinking that something sounds better because the numbers and graphs objectively prove it, as you criticize, they can also (and with much more ease) be fooled into thinking that something sounds better just because of their previous expectations about the prestige of a brand, subjective opinions of other buyers, reviews, etc. This is where the relevance of controlled blind tests comes into play, to confront brain stimuli biases with reality.



Except blind tests aren't without fault, and this is extremely relevant when done by hobbyists in an uncontrolled setting. Sighted tests are also clearly faulty. Graphs and measurements also are unreliable. All of these can be useful and are best when used comprehensively together rather than relied on individually but... (edit* also meant to say that I agree with what your'e saying in the first part of this post). 

This is why this entire argument (as in the past 4 pages and the continuous ridiculous that keeps plaguing this thred) is literally stupid as ****. People are seeking some absolute way to point to an absolute "best product" or "correct answer". And it simply doesn't exist in this hobby--seriously if you dispute this, I cannot take a word or impression of yours seriously. And worse, on these forums and others, it's mainly all ego driven. Almost none of this conversation is genuine, people are trolling and/or want to be right, and/or want the product they paid for to be universally seen as "king" (which imo is incredibly stupid, but very prominent in this and other chord threads even before all of the Amir bs).

What I do agree with, is the perspective that your own ears are ultimately the best deciding factor, with the other data points as supplements. That's been extremely reliable for me, but to each their own.


----------



## Merkurio

Frankie D said:


> I am not saying you are incorrect, but I do feel the video is somewhat misleading.  At no time do they only stroke the rubber hand.  So of course the person will make the inference.  I had thought they were going to only stroke the rubber hand at some point, and the person would feel it.  That would have been even more scary to me.



The video was the first one I found on YouTube, but the experiment is widely known and documented in more complex ways, just look it up (the phenomenon is called body transfer illusion).

My point is that the brain is very easy to manipulate at a subconscious level and even more so if we enter to the realm of psychoacoustics, I've only limited myself to clarifying that the biases can deceive us in both directions, not only if you are an "objectivist blinded by measurements" as Triode User stated.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

number1sixerfan said:


> Except blind tests aren't without fault, and this is extremely relevant when done by hobbyists in an uncontrolled setting. Sighted tests are also clearly faulty. Graphs and measurements also are unreliable. All of these can be useful and are best when used comprehensively together rather than relied on individually but...
> 
> This is why this entire argument (as in the past 4 pages and the continuous ridiculous that keeps plaguing this thred) is literally stupid as ****. People are seeking some absolute way to point to an absolute "best product" or "correct answer". And it simply doesn't exist in this hobby--seriously if you dispute this, I cannot take a word or impression of yours seriously. And worse, on these forums and others, it's mainly all ego driven. Almost none of this conversation is genuine, people are trolling and/or want to be right, and/or want the product they paid for to be universally seen as "king" (which imo is incredibly stupid, but very prominent in this and other chord threads even before all of the Amir bs).
> 
> What I do agree with, is the perspective that your own ears are ultimately the best deciding factor, with the other data points as supplements. That's been extremely reliable for me, but to each their own.


At the end of the day I buy what I love, I love the Chord stuff so I bought and continue to enjoy it.  I learned about Rob Watts because i liked the stuff so much i wanted to know who designed it after the fact.


----------



## Rin1990 (Sep 9, 2022)

number1sixerfan said:


> Except blind tests aren't without fault, and this is extremely relevant when done by hobbyists in an uncontrolled setting. Sighted tests are also clearly faulty. Graphs and measurements also are unreliable. All of these can be useful and are best when used comprehensively together rather than relied on individually but...
> 
> This is why this entire argument (as in the past 4 pages and the continuous ridiculous that keeps plaguing this thred) is literally stupid as ****. People are seeking some absolute way to point to an absolute "best product" or "correct answer". And it simply doesn't exist in this hobby--seriously if you dispute this, I cannot take a word or impression of yours seriously. And worse, on these forums and others, it's mainly all ego driven. Almost none of this conversation is genuine, people are trolling and/or want to be right, and/or want the product they paid for to be universally seen as "king" (which imo is incredibly stupid, but very prominent in this and other chord threads even before all of the Amir bs).
> 
> What I do agree with, is the perspective that your own ears are ultimately the best deciding factor, with the other data points as supplements. That's been extremely reliable for me, but to each their own.


Ditto.

The entire questioning from objectivists are extremely pointless, stupid and ego-driven to the point of just being irritating for the sake of wanting to be irritating on internet because "lol funny troll drama is fun".

I think it's best to just put Merkurio on ignore since the guy has already admitted that he is from ASR which alone says a lot what he believes in and none of what is being disputed or retorted back at would be listened to anyways so it's pointless to converse with the likes of him

I too would like to get back to just enjoying Dave impression and experience without this dragging any further than it already did.

I also apologize for sorta starting this myself with the whole outcry of "a $150 DAC can beat DAVE lolwtf" since it's just me being in the heat of moment at Amir's ludicrousness.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Rin1990 said:


> Ditto.
> 
> The entire questioning from objectivists are extremely pointless, stupid and ego-driven to the point of just being irritating for the sake of wanting to be irritating on internet because "lol funny troll drama is fun".
> 
> ...


Do what the rest of the industry does, ignore Amir 😂


----------



## Rin1990

GuiltyRocker said:


> Do what the rest of the industry does, ignore Amir 😂


I'll do you one better.

Ignore everything from ASR and measurement snobs. Period.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Rin1990 said:


> I'll do you one better.
> 
> Ignore everything from ASR and measurement snobs. Period.


Sounds good to me, I read Stereophile and they do measurements, but they don't harp on that or let it affect what they hear, they judge the gear on what they hear and how it makes them feel.  I'll stick with Stereophile.


----------



## Merkurio (Sep 9, 2022)

number1sixerfan said:


> Except blind tests aren't without fault, and this is extremely relevant when done by hobbyists in an uncontrolled setting. Sighted tests are also clearly faulty. Graphs and measurements also are unreliable. All of these can be useful and are best when used comprehensively together rather than relied on individually but...



I agree, controlled and rigorous blind tests are not an easy task to do without establishing a strict methodology that eliminates all subconscious clues that could lead to deception, in which case they have no statistical utility and therefore don't differ from a sighted test.

Very few and almost certainly no one in this thread have done a true audio blind test, some due to the previously mentioned complexity and others for fear of encountering with the fact-driven reality.



> This is why this entire argument (as in the past 4 pages and the continuous ridiculous that keeps plaguing this thred) is literally stupid as ****. People are seeking some absolute way to point to an absolute "best product" or "correct answer". And it simply doesn't exist in this hobby--seriously if you dispute this, I cannot take a word or impression of yours seriously. And worse, on these forums and others, it's mainly all ego driven. Almost none of this conversation is genuine, people are trolling and/or want to be right, and/or want the product they paid for to be universally seen as "king" (which imo is incredibly stupid, but very prominent in this and other chord threads even before all of the Amir bs).



I'm certainly not one of those people seeking for perfection beyond the audible threshold and the features I want, but I believe in the correct answers when questions that have a logical and ascertainable explanation arise, which are those that don't depend on your point of view or mine to be answered, but on their agreement with reality.

My interventions in this thread have never involved logical fallacies or personal attacks, if the rationale is reason for punishment, consider me guilty then.


----------



## Icenine2

The "Kind of Blue" DSD256 download has proven itself to be crazy great. I'll put this above all the versions I already own.


----------



## Icenine2

Kind of Blue Positive Feedback


----------



## theveterans

Sampajanna said:


> Yes, change the subject as much and as often as we can away from the trollls…. What do you think is different about the DSD? And do you have a DSD capable dac?



The modulators and noise shapers in Quad DSD is better. Even if you downsample the DXD to 88.2 KHz PCM using ROON and use DAVE as the upsampler, you still benefit from the superior timing information from the original DSD file IMO


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Ok this is over, back to enjoying your equipment and your rig, remember, the only person that has to like the sound of your system is you!  Enjoy the music and focus on enjoyment of the hobby.  Happy listening!


----------



## kawhia

DAVE is the best Dac in the world, period. There it is 
It has outlived the Queen
My sincere condolences to everyone on the UK island, from Central Europe.


----------



## Reactcore

So are there any new headphones tried with Dave?

Although the HD800 is disappearing from peoples signatures.. i'm still amazed by this combo.

HEK2SE was real similar sounding.
I wonder if DCA will come with a openback version with their resonation absorbtion tech


----------



## Rin1990

Reactcore said:


> So are there any new headphones tried with Dave?
> 
> Although the HD800 is disappearing from peoples signatures.. i'm still amazed by this combo.
> 
> ...


Have you experienced it with the Susvara?


----------



## 801evan

Reactcore said:


> So are there any new headphones tried with Dave?
> 
> Although the HD800 is disappearing from peoples signatures.. i'm still amazed by this combo.
> 
> ...


Hd800 series needs 40ohm output impedance from the amplifier to get the tonality right. 

Susvara and Stealth is effortless on Dave. He1kse is a quite lacking in overall performance vs Susvara while Stealth is always ahead of Susvara.


----------



## Rin1990

801evan said:


> Susvara and Stealth is effortless on Dave. He1kse is a quite lacking in overall performance vs Susvara while Stealth is always ahead of Susvara.


Hope the synergy is good at least. I kinda like the Susvara but it's got this weird nitpickiness for some reason.


----------



## 801evan

Rin1990 said:


> Hope the synergy is good at least. I kinda like the Susvara but it's got this weird nitpickiness for some reason.


Synergy is not a thing. Susvara is not nitpicky. It just reflects the quality of the chain behind it. It only needs <145mw to drive it.


----------



## Rin1990

801evan said:


> Synergy is not a thing. Susvara is not nitpicky. It just reflects the quality of the chain behind it. It only needs <145mw to drive it.


Hmm, I see....okay then. I must've paired it with something not as good sounding back then (To be fair it was tried briefly with the older Cayin N6 I borrowed from a friend.)


----------



## coopdog (Sep 10, 2022)

GuiltyRocker said:


> Sounds good to me, I read Stereophile and they do measurements, but they don't harp on that or let it affect what they hear, they judge the gear on what they hear and how it makes them feel.  I'll stick with Stereophile.


You were thinking of getting a Topping dac to see what all the talk is about; maybe this can be of some help. I know it’s probably off topic, but if it helps…….

This is from Stereophile’s current issue. Under A rated pre-amps:

*Topping Pre90: $599*
_This affordable solid state preamplifier comes with a remote control and one pair each of balanced and unbalanced inputs and outputs. The optional $249 Ext90 adds one RCA and three XLR input pairs. Circuitry is all balanced. There's no balance control, but the volume control operates in relay-controlled 0.5dB steps. "A transparent, noise-free sound," decided KR, who described the Pre90 as "a great bargain." JA warned that the balanced input has very low impedance—1000 ohms—which will give a bass-light balance with source components that have a tubed output stage. But with its extraordinarily low levels of noise and distortion and very high channel separation, he concluded "*the fact that that performance can be achieved in such a small chassis and for such a low price suggests that Topping has some serious audio engineering talent in-house.*" (Vol.45 No.2 WWW)_

Obviously Stereophile sees some value in a Topping product. Do with it what you will.


----------



## simorag

Super easy ways to remind me why I am into this hobby, and why the DAVE is such an effective vehicle for intellectual, physical and emotional pleasure ...


----------



## Triode User

simorag said:


> Super easy ways to remind me why I am into this hobby, and why the DAVE is such an effective vehicle for intellectual, physical and emotional pleasure ...
> ​


Thanks for those. They are all new to me apart from the last one.

Last night i had just over an hour of sheer joy listening to my Dave + Mscaler with this album.


----------



## pichler

simorag said:


> Super easy ways to remind me why I am into this hobby, and why the DAVE is such an effective vehicle for intellectual, physical and emotional pleasure ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Think exactly like you. I find your musical suggestions amazing, please don't stop letting us know some real goodies.


----------



## paulrbarnard

Merkurio said:


> if he is really so confident about the qualities he defends.


This is the fundamental issue here. He has absolutely no obligation to defend anything.  It is arrogance on your part to assume he does.


----------



## Rin1990 (Sep 10, 2022)

This will probably be excessive as hell for some, but I wonder if anyone here used IEMs with the Dave?


----------



## Kentajalli

Reactcore said:


> HEK2SE was real similar sounding.
> I wonder if DCA will come with a openback version with their resonation absorbtion tech


It is a little off your topic, but I like to say, I am getting tired of open back headphones!
I like them, but they have practical issues:
- other people can hear your music and be bothered.
- YOU can hear other people and be bothered!
- If anything comes near the back of the headphones, it can change the sound! just try it, wave your hand about one inch from the back of your phones.
- can't use them on planes or trains.
Of course open backed headphones have an organic open sound stage, however, some of the newer closed back ones are closing the gap!
For example, I heard the Audeze LCD-XC 2021 version at CanJam. It being a closed back, but sound stage was as good as any open back.
Frankly, I tried various Hifimans, Audeze open backed, Focal . . . etc. but the XC stood above!
I have ordered one, waiting to receive it.

P.S. I don't think the DCA technology would work on an open back version, from what I understand of it.


----------



## Crgreen

Reactcore said:


> So are there any new headphones tried with Dave?
> 
> Although the HD800 is disappearing from peoples signatures.. i'm still amazed by this combo.
> 
> ...


I don’t know if they still qualify as “new”, but I have outstanding results with the Meze Elite. Well recorded instruments, such as those on the Tord Gustafson album (and most ECM releases) allow you to revel in their palpability.


----------



## zen87192 (Sep 10, 2022)

Kentajalli said:


> For example, I heard the Audeze LCD-XC 2021 version at CanJam. It being a closed back, but sound stage was as good as any open back.
> Frankly, I tried various Hifimans, Audeze open backed, Focal . . . etc. but the XC stood above!
> I have ordered one, waiting to receive it.


I totally agree... I too heard the LCD-XC 2021 at CanJam London and was very impressed. I'm still deciding whether to buy one just yet as I'm going to CanJam SoCal soon and may either pick one up there or something else that takes my fancy.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

coopdog said:


> You were thinking of getting a Topping dac to see what all the talk is about; maybe this can be of some help. I know it’s probably off topic, but if it helps…….
> 
> This is from Stereophile’s current issue. Under A rated pre-amps:
> 
> ...


Nice, I'm gonna get the D90SE to see what the deal is, I'll talk about it then and it'll be exactly what I hear.


----------



## Kentajalli

GuiltyRocker said:


> Nice, I'm gonna get the D90SE to see what the deal is, I'll talk about it then and it'll be exactly what I hear.


The new DX7 pro plus, is not far off D90SE, it has a decent headphone amp thrown in.
Something to consider, FWIW.


----------



## Reactcore

Rin1990 said:


> Have you experienced it with the Susvara?


I have yet to try that one.. its on my todo list
Is its stage open like HD800?

I heard stealth aside my HD.. it sounded somehow kind of lighter but balanced which is actually super for a closed design.. but not worth its price for me


----------



## Rin1990 (Sep 10, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> I have yet to try that one.. its on my todo list
> Is its stage open like HD800?
> 
> I heard stealth aside my HD.. it sounded somehow kind of lighter but balanced which is actually super for a closed design.. but not worth its price for me


I haven't tried the HD800, I'm ashamed to admit but I too would like to give it a try one day. So I cannot compare unfortunately.

But the Susvara has quite a big stage and it's very fast in response for a planar.

But unfortunately my last listen session was with a rather underwhelming source (Cayin N6) so it definitely could benefit from a real powerful source. Which is why I kinda hope you can give it a try with a Dave soon and share to me how well it scale because it's not picky at all with sources apparently, which also means it should be able to scale impressively with a bigger source. 

Right now, my most curious pair up would be like this with the Susvara.

DAC: Chord DAVE
Amp: Cayin HA-300 MKII

Hopefully I can get to give it a try.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Kentajalli said:


> The new DX7 pro plus, is not far off D90SE, it has a decent headphone amp thrown in.
> Something to consider, FWIW.


I don't use headphones, gonna try the D90SE with the Personas and let's see what it can do.


----------



## Reactcore (Sep 10, 2022)

Kentajalli said:


> It is a little off your topic, but I like to say, I am getting tired of open back headphones!
> I like them, but they have practical issues:
> - other people can hear your music and be bothered.
> - YOU can hear other people and be bothered!
> ...



Good points.. its exactly why i went to audition the stealth.

I'm a soundstage head and together with Dave's depth capabillities it can become a huge grand immersive stage listening to orchestras or movie soundtracks.

I look for a speaker in a big room like presentation.

Closed back HP's are coming closer but dont surpass open designs yet


----------



## Reactcore

Rin1990 said:


> because it's not picky at all with sources apparently, which also means it should be able to scale


Hm i have read the Sus is hard to drive and some use even speaker amps with it..


----------



## Sampajanna

Kentajalli said:


> It is a little off your topic, but I like to say, I am getting tired of open back headphones!
> I like them, but they have practical issues:
> - other people can hear your music and be bothered.
> - YOU can hear other people and be bothered!
> ...


There are lots of great closed backs as well. The Stellia are real nice, for example. Depending how/where you listen, these can be great. The Verite are also wonderful.


----------



## Rin1990

The Susvara is 60 Ohms and 83 dB per 1mW of power so yeah...not an easy beast to drive.

Which is why my last experience with the Susvara is pretty underwhelming with the N6 paired...should've find a desktop setup at least. But I wasn't in an audio shop that time lol, so I had no choice.


----------



## Kentajalli

Sampajanna said:


> There are lots of great closed backs as well. The Stellia are real nice, for example. Depending how/where you listen, these can be great. The Verite are also wonderful.


Yep and the utopia.
The reason I mentioned the XC is that it is within my target price bracket.
I paid $900 all & all! I am not going to say how, so don't ask.
Ofcourse brand new, sealed and full warranty.


----------



## Sampajanna

Kentajalli said:


> Yep and the utopia.
> The reason I mentioned the XC is that it is within my target price bracket.
> I paid $900 all & all! I am not going to say how, so don't ask.
> Ofcourse brand new, sealed and full warranty.


Utopia are open, though. But, yes, theya re great. I love them,


----------



## Kentajalli

Rin1990 said:


> The Susvara is 60 Ohms and 83 dB *per *1mW of power so yeah...not an easy beast to drive.
> Which is why my last experience with the Susvara is pretty underwhelming with the N6 paired...should've find a desktop setup at least. But I wasn't in an audio shop that time lol, so I had no choice.


Yet my Hugo2 managed well with Susvara, OK it couldn't go very loud (only about 600mW), but loud enough for my listening.

BTW, just a small clarification - it is *for* or* @ *1mW, not per.


----------



## Kentajalli

Sampajanna said:


> Utopia are open, though. But, yes, theya re great. I love them,


didn't know that, thanx.


----------



## Rin1990

For me, I'm plenty happy enough with my Aune DAC amp for the time being, and I definitely won't apologize for choosing it over the supposedly more "objectively superior measured" Topping EX5. (having tried both, I find the Aune X1S more musical and lively to my taste so there)



Kentajalli said:


> Yet my Hugo2 managed well with Susvara, OK it couldn't go very loud (only about 600mW), but loud enough for my listening.
> 
> BTW, just a small clarification - it is *for* or* @ *1mW, not per.


My apologies, I wasn't exactly versed at statistic labeling xD.

But yeah I imagine the Hugo2 can at least drive it competently if not at 100% efficiency like the big boy amps.


----------



## Reactcore

Rin1990 said:


> The Susvara is 60 Ohms and 83 dB per 1mW of power so yeah...not an easy beast to drive.



Lol and before Mojo, Qutest and Dave i listened to my HD800 paired with my AK120 1st gen DAP with a laughable 1.65v output voltage.. but i never felt like missing volume.

I even made a special 1m cable 3.5mm to HD800 plugs.. i still use this on vacations actually


----------



## Rin1990

Reactcore said:


> Lol and before Mojo, Qutest and Dave i listened to my HD800 paired with my AK120 1st gen DAP with a laughable 1.65v output voltage.. but i never felt like missing volume.
> 
> I even made a special 1m cable 3.5mm to HD800 plugs.. i still use this on vacations actually


Wow...now I feel old looking at that AK120...   

Also nice little black Dave there. I think I like the black one more than the silver.


----------



## Reactcore

Rin1990 said:


> Wow...now I feel old looking at that AK120...
> 
> Also nice little black Dave there. I think I like the black one more than the silver.


You had a AK120 too? Its with me for 9 years. Still easily doing 8+ hours on a battery charge.
And 2x 1TB mSD .. no streaming


----------



## Rin1990

Reactcore said:


> You had a AK120 too? Its with me for 9 years. Still easily doing 8+ hours on a battery charge.
> And 2x 1TB mSD .. no streaming


Nah, I never owned any AK DAPs before. But I did tried them when I started out this hobby.

Also, my first DAP was the Fiio X1 MK1. It died a violent death on the street when I dropped it by accident while crossing the road....and being ran over by a Honda CR-V...


----------



## pichler

I decide for silver because I have fear for the paint, but black is really beautiful.
And I buy silver because everybody know they sound a little brighter than black


----------



## Reactcore

pichler said:


> I decide for silver because I have fear for the paint, but black is really beautiful.
> And I buy silver because everybody know they sound a little brighter than black


I chose black cause of Qutest thats only available in black.. then my HMS had to be black too after getting that a silver Dave dont match then lol. 

Its not painted but annodized so no chipping


----------



## DJJEZ

pichler said:


> I decide for silver because I have fear for the paint, but black is really beautiful.
> And I buy silver because everybody know they sound a little brighter than black


Black dave = blacker Background


----------



## Malcyg (Sep 10, 2022)

Triode User said:


> Thanks for those. They are all new to me apart from the last one.
> 
> Last night i had just over an hour of sheer joy listening to my Dave + Mscaler with this album.



I do like a bit of SRV myself. Try this for a slightly different approach. Should be pretty good on mDave.






And this will really show if your DAC is up to snuff or not.


----------



## Rin1990

Malcyg said:


> I do like a bit of SRV myself. Try this for a slightly different approach. Should be pretty good on mDave.


Listening to it on FLAC alone is plenty impressive, not my usual go-to genre but I do love the instruments.

Good recommendations. Have you any more to share?


----------



## kumar402

Triode User said:


> Thanks for those. They are all new to me apart from the last one.
> 
> Last night i had just over an hour of sheer joy listening to my Dave + Mscaler with this album.


Thanks for suggestion…this album will sound good on any setup.


----------



## Malcyg

Rin1990 said:


> Listening to it on FLAC alone is plenty impressive, not my usual go-to genre but I do love the instruments.
> 
> Good recommendations. Have you any more to share?



Hey, don’t open that can of worms. 😉 I’ve always been a 2 channel speakers guy but have had to focus increasingly on headphones in recent years since getting Qobuz and then Roon.  I love discovering all sorts of different music and the Roon/Qobuz combo is fantastic for that - but my wife isn’t so adventurous! Hence the headphones coming increasingly to the fore. I have to say that I have come to enjoy headphones just as much as my speakers now.


If you like instrumentation, there are some lovely instrumental tones captured in this.





Also, Beethoven’s Leonore Overture No 3 has always been one of my favourite pieces since seeing it being performed live at Symphony Hall, Birmingham, and being completely blown away by the performance. There are multiple versions of it on Qobuz and whilst the one below is not a great quality recording, it comes closest to capturing the energy and emotion of what I witnessed live.


----------



## SteveHulk

Reactcore said:


> I chose black cause of Qutest thats only available in black.. then my HMS had to be black too after getting that a silver Dave dont match then lol.
> 
> Its not painted but annodized so no chipping


Bomb-proof casework is just one of the things that I like about Chord products.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

SteveHulk said:


> Bomb-proof casework is just one of the things that I like about Chord products.


Absolutely, hahahahahahahahaha


----------



## Malcyg (Sep 11, 2022)

This was just prior to the performance of Leonore Overture. A stunning performance and right up there with The Wall at Earls Court, amongst others. And what a concert hall Symphony Hall is - superb acoustics. Certainly gives you a high target to aim for at home.

Edit - it’s worth noting that the silver and red doors open and close throughout the performance to vary the reflections and natural reverb.


----------



## simorag (Sep 10, 2022)

When great music, transcendent interpretation and inspired recording engineering match ... 

Very natural piano capture from ECM of Schiff profound take on Bach partitas.
Listen for harmonics richness, realism of decay, dynamics.





Pretty recent Beethoven symphonies cycle from Savall, yes there is still something to be uncovered about these. A dark, masculine orchestra color, overwhelming percussions (in a very satisfying way), and an interesting choice of tempos throughout.





A classic, miracle minimalistic recording, beautifully intimate, yet full of captivating ambience cues at the same time.





Another DAVE magical rendition (especially with crossfeed). Huge space, immersive experience,  and the sense of growing complicity between the band and a very special audience (free, at least for one night) as the performance goes on, goosebumps are just inevitable.





... and staying on B. overtures, here is a great Egmont, thrilling!


----------



## Triode User

simorag said:


> When great music, transcendent interpretation and inspired recording engineering match ...
> 
> Very natural piano capture from ECM of Schiff profound take on Bach partitas.
> Listen for harmonics richness, realism of decay, dynamics.
> ...


Thanks, All excellent.

Also try Trinity Revisited by the Cowboy Junkies.


----------



## KevinJB

SteveHulk said:


> Bomb-proof casework is just one of the things that I like about Chord products.


I do like the solid feel of Chord products and the general design of them.
Kev


----------



## Icenine2

Reactcore said:


> Good points.. its exactly why i went to audition the stealth.
> 
> I'm a soundstage head and together with Dave's depth capabillities it can become a huge grand immersive stage listening to orchestras or movie soundtracks.
> 
> ...


I've owned the Stealth for exactly one year. LOVE them. Not to mention later night listening means everyone in the house isn't hearing me. Had Meze Empyrean's prior.


----------



## Icenine2




----------



## Icenine2




----------



## KevinJB

Icenine2 said:


>


I love the Baby Groot, and obviously the DAC 
Kev


----------



## GuiltyRocker

KevinJB said:


> I love the Baby Groot, and obviously the DAC
> Kev


The baby Groot is awesome.


----------



## Reactcore

Icenine2 said:


>


I see youre on DSD+ and 705.6k.. if i listen DSD i use USB direct on Dave 
HMS goes better on PCM+ imo


----------



## Icenine2

R Watts told me I was better off this way


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Icenine2 said:


> R Watts told me I was better off this way


He told you what exactly?  Route DSD to the DAC directly instead of using the M Scaler?


----------



## alxw0w

Are you talking about music?! Not about Sinad?! 
No way, music is wrong when Sinad is wrong!


----------



## Reactcore

Icenine2 said:


> R Watts told me I was better off this way



HMS outputs PCM only.
So on Dave PCM+ is the best option

See here.. HMS and Blu2 share the same code..
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/post-13519271


----------



## Rin1990

Malcyg said:


> This was just prior to the performance of Leonore Overture. A stunning performance and right up there with The Wall at Earls Court, amongst others. And what a concert hall Symphony Hall is - superb acoustics. Certainly gives you a high target to aim for at home.


I can only imagine the amount of detail, staging and insane level of information the DSD format would have for a live recording of this magnitude...

Thanks so much for the recommendations though!

It's always nice to keep discovering new music.

I was originally looking for female vocals but I'm open for new stuffs so yeah.


----------



## pichler

For lovers of baroque and ancient music I recommend the excellent program on RTE LIRICS which is called VOX NOSTRA. Interesting selection of songs, expertly conducted by Vlad Smishkewych.

It airs from 7am to 10am Irish time every Sunday.


----------



## Sampajanna

Icenine2 said:


>


Nice set up!


Glad to be on the subject of music. I have been listening to the recent 4-album Moon sweet by Tedeschi Trucks Band. Very nice! Check it out.
I LOVE Jordi Savall. Glad to see his Beethoven mentioned. They are amongst my favorite versions!


----------



## Rin1990

Sampajanna said:


> Nice set up!
> 
> 
> Glad to be on the subject of music. I have been listening to the recent 4-album Moon sweet by Tedeschi Trucks Band. Very nice! Check it out.
> I LOVE Jordi Savall. Glad to see his Beethoven mentioned. They are amongst my favorite versions!


Any recommendations for female vocals? I'm kinda running blind to what to look for. And I'm kinda bored of Adele's songs (been at them for a long long time already), no offence to the fans...


----------



## thePhones

I have a question regarding the headphone mode of Dave. I know that, when connecting a headphone, the rear outputs go silent, but are they isolated through a relais or otherwise galvanically isolated when going silent? I want to know if an amp that is turned on and connected to the rear outputs would be able to alter the sound of the headphone output due to rf-noise and/or groundloops?


----------



## Powersquat

Rin1990 said:


> Any recommendations for female vocals? I'm kinda running blind to what to look for. And I'm kinda bored of Adele's songs (been at them for a long long time already), no offence to the fans...



Thank's for your recommendation, I will definitely be giving the STB a listen, from a brief perusal of their back catalogue I was very impressed.

I'm never confident when giving musical recommendations, it's all so subjective, but here's three female vocalists I enjoy. Gillian Welch, mournful country and western in style, well recorded and some great guitar work, Soul Journey and Time The Revalator are both worth a listen Natalie Merchant, maybe not the best female vocalist, but she has a very distinctive voice and her albums are pretty eclectic in nature, pop, blues and country flavours are all prevalent, Tiger Lily and The House Carpenters Daughter are very different albums, but in my view would be a good place to start. 


Tory Amos, a bit off the wall musically, it's hard to categorise her musical style, it's contemporary in nature, Pop?, not really, she was a child musical genius and a classically trained pianist, but as a teenager she rebelled and started to develop her own style. Their are however strong classical influences in her music. Two albums I'd recommend are Boys For Pele and Under The Pink.


----------



## paulrbarnard

Rin1990 said:


> Any recommendations for female vocals? I'm kinda running blind to what to look for. And I'm kinda bored of Adele's songs (been at them for a long long time already), no offence to the fans...


In no specific order, just as they appear in my QoBuz. Lorde, Anna Calvi, Yael Naim, Agnes Obel, Angel Olsen, Lykke Li and you could try some Billie Eilish if you want to get down with the kids.


----------



## Rin1990 (Sep 11, 2022)

.


----------



## Rin1990

paulrbarnard said:


> In no specific order, just as they appear in my QoBuz. Lorde, Anna Calvi, Yael Naim, Agnes Obel, Angel Olsen, Lykke Li and you could try some Billie Eilish if you want to get down with the kids.





Powersquat said:


> Thank's for your recommendation, I will definitely be giving the STB a listen, from a brief perusal of their back catalogue I was very impressed.
> 
> I'm never confident when giving musical recommendations, it's all so subjective, but here's three female vocalists I enjoy. Gillian Welch, mournful country and western in style, well recorded and some great guitar work, Soul Journey and Time The Revalator are both worth a listen Natalie Merchant, maybe not the best female vocalist, but she has a very distinctive voice and her albums are pretty eclectic in nature, pop, blues and country flavours are all prevalent, Tiger Lily and The House Carpenters Daughter are very different albums, but in my view would be a good place to start.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the recommendations!!

I'll go check them out soon one by one.


----------



## SteveHulk

Rin1990 said:


> Thanks for the recommendations!!
> 
> I'll go check them out soon one by one.


I don't have a lot of female vocal but you might like Patricia Barber "Modern Cool" and there's Jessye Norman with the Strauss "Four Last Songs" to consider on the classical side.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Rin1990 said:


> Thanks for the recommendations!!
> 
> I'll go check them out soon one by one.


Listen to Sarah McLachlan, amazing singer.  For old school singing listen to Whitney Houston and for something soft listen to Dido, plenty of good music there.  I also enjoy Jorja Smith, but she's polarizing, let me know what you think.


----------



## Rin1990

SteveHulk said:


> I don't have a lot of female vocal but you might like Patricia Barber "Modern Cool" and there's Jessye Norman with the Strauss "Four Last Songs" to consider on the classical side.


Alright. Will give them a listen. Thanks.


GuiltyRocker said:


> Listen to Sarah McLachlan, amazing singer.  For old school singing listen to Whitney Houston and for something soft listen to Dido, plenty of good music there.  I also enjoy Jorja Smith, but she's polarizing, let me know what you think.


Ah yeah, Sarah McLachlan. I still love listening to her "Angel". Such a beautiful song. But I ought to listen to other songs from her. If they're as good in recording as Angel, I'll definitely listen more frequently.

And thanks too for Jorja Smith. I'll give it a look.


----------



## paulrbarnard

Rin1990 said:


> Alright. Will give them a listen. Thanks.
> 
> Ah yeah, Sarah McLachlan. I still love listening to her "Angel". Such a beautiful song. But I ought to listen to other songs from her. If they're as good in recording as Angel, I'll definitely listen more frequently.
> 
> And thanks too for Jorja Smith. I'll give it a look.


McLachlan’s live recording of Blackbird (McCartney) is something special 

Female vocalists are my ‘thing’. Roon make discovering new artist a breeze. Select a track you like and it will keep recommending similar from other artists. You can thumbs up or down the choice to refine the selections to what you like best.


----------



## zen87192

GuiltyRocker said:


> Listen to Sarah McLachlan, amazing singer.  For old school singing listen to Whitney Houston and for something soft listen to Dido, plenty of good music there.  I also enjoy Jorja Smith, but she's polarizing, let me know what you think.


You can't beat a bit of Dido, Sade, London Grammer or Dua!!


----------



## Reactcore (Sep 11, 2022)

thePhones said:


> I have a question regarding the headphone mode of Dave. I know that, when connecting a headphone, the rear outputs go silent, but are they isolated through a relais or otherwise galvanically isolated when going silent? I want to know if an amp that is turned on and connected to the rear outputs would be able to alter the sound of the headphone output due to rf-noise and/or groundloops?



I did quite some measuring inside Dave for my planned modifications and made a simplified drawing which should be close to the circuit.

Once plugging in a headphone jack the line out is completely disconnected from the OP by a relay.

Line signal is exactly the same as HP out. HP out has actualy a shorter internal route than line out as it has one relay less to go through.
It might matter using a 6.3mm Jack to RCA cable to a amp instead of using the RCA's on the back.

Also i can say Dave OP impedance is not less than 2 ohms. The stated 0.x ohm impedance in the spec. is measured on the RCA pin while layed to ground with Dave switched off.

The 6x R resistors generate quite some heat btw warming up the PCB together with the LM's.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Reactcore said:


> I did quite some measuring inside Dave for my planned modifications and made a simplified drawing which should be close to the circuit.
> 
> Once plugging in a headphone jack the line out is completely disconnected from the OP by a relay.
> 
> ...


Wow very impressive.   Nice stuff.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Rin1990 said:


> Any recommendations for female vocals? I'm kinda running blind to what to look for. And I'm kinda bored of Adele's songs (been at them for a long long time already), no offence to the fans...



Depends on what you're looking for but check out Sia, Lana Del Rey, FKA Twigs, Ellie Goulding, Freya Ridings, etc. Older soul music is also really my thing, check out Aretha, Whitney, Patti LaBelle, Sade, Anita Baker, etc. to see if that floats your boat as well. 

Female vocals is one of my favorite categories to listen to, and it just spans across so many genres and types of music. There's so much out there.


----------



## JamieMcC (Sep 11, 2022)

Rin1990 said:


> Any recommendations for female vocals? I'm kinda running blind to what to look for. And I'm kinda bored of Adele's songs (been at them for a long long time already), no offence to the fans...



Some good recommendations so far

To add a few others from my playlist.

AA Williams (If after intimate vocal try Songs from Isolation)
Emiliana Torrini  (if you have watched Lord if the Rings you will have heard her)
Cat Power
Agnes Obel
Alison Krauss 
Aoife O Donovan 
Bic Runga
Cecile Mclorin Salvant
The Delines
Eva Cassidy
Fever Ray (aka Karin Dreijer, previously The Knife.  Darkish, stark, moody Scandi  pop might add Susanne Sundfør in as well for good measure.
Freya Ridings 
Goldfrapp
Heidi Talbot
Holly Cole
Shelby Lynne
Karen Souza
Madeleine Peyroux
Heidi Happy
Melody Gardot
Sarah Jarosz
Ruth Moody
The Wailin Jenny's 

Could really go on and on but the above probably get the most play time.


----------



## Icenine2

Reactcore said:


> I see youre on DSD+ and 705.6k.. if i listen DSD i use USB direct on Dave
> HMS goes better on PCM+ imo


----------



## Reactcore

Icenine2 said:


>


I dont know the context of this reply but i think Rob means using DSD into HMS..

HMS outputs PCM to Dave so that should be set to PCM+


----------



## SoupRKnowva (Sep 11, 2022)

I could be wrong, but maybe the differences between PCM+ and DSD+ modes are negated when bypassing the WTA1 filter anyways with HMS input.

But I went looking for that comment from Rob Watts to see the context and couldn't find it, but search isn't always the best.


----------



## iDesign

SoupRKnowva said:


> I could be wrong, but maybe the differences between PCM+ and DSD+ modes are negated when bypassing the WTA1 filter anyways with HMS input.
> 
> But I went looking for that comment from Rob Watts to see the context and couldn't find it, but search isn't always the best.


Its a DM screenshot.


----------



## Somatic

Anyone mess around with these? I like the SR Purple fuses. Wondering if this will add positive benefits to one’s chain. Thanks. 

https://www.synergisticresearch.com/accessories/power/purple-duplex/


----------



## Somatic

Reactcore said:


> I did quite some measuring inside Dave for my planned modifications and made a simplified drawing which should be close to the circuit.
> 
> Once plugging in a headphone jack the line out is completely disconnected from the OP by a relay.
> 
> ...


So cool.


----------



## Ards

Wanted to start the fight back against the desk shaming photos many post up here with their pristine uncluttered work surfaces.  Here's a real desk!  My desk!  A working desk!


----------



## Somatic

Ards said:


> Wanted to start the fight back against the desk shaming photos many post up here with their pristine uncluttered work surfaces.  Here's a real desk!  My desk!  A working desk!


Nice. I remember a couple of years ago I started cleaning my desk daily and slowly started to get minimalist with it. But my desk used to be more cluttered before. Now I just have a spiral notebook, a highlighter and a nice pen. Should go all digital but I’m old school.


----------



## alxw0w (Sep 12, 2022)

Rin1990 said:


> Any recommendations for female vocals? I'm kinda running blind to what to look for. And I'm kinda bored of Adele's songs (been at them for a long long time already), no offence to the fans...


For female vocals you should definitely try Madeleine Peyroux. Especially album: The Blue Moon. Marvelous recording.

ps. Also try: Use me by Vanessa Fernandez, but also other albums from her.
photos just for reference


----------



## Rin1990

alxw0w said:


> For female vocals you should definitely try Madeleine Peyroux. Especially album: The Blue Moon. Marvelous recording.
> 
> ps. Also try: Use me by Vanessa Fernandez, but also other albums from her.
> photos just for reference


Thanks so much for the recommendations. Always great to discover new stuffs.

Also yeah, I would be even happier if the recordings are of great quality because the more I listened to Adele's stuffs, the more I realized how some of them are botched by very poor mastering/mixing/recording and it's really doing my gears a disservice, as well as a disservice to Adele herself...


----------



## alxw0w (Sep 12, 2022)

Rin1990 said:


> I listened to Adele's stuffs, the more I realized how some of them are botched by very poor mastering/mixing/recording and it's really doing my gears a disservice, as well as a disservice to Adele herself...


Yup, unfortunately that what is happening with music produced for 'masses'. Many times it's poorly mastered. And beautiful voice of singer is just ruined 

Albums from Vanessa and Madeleine are top notch productions.

Actually album Use Me was recorded by legendary Bernie Grundman, whole recording session was made using tapes and old mastering techniques (as I remember correctly).

ps. track Here But I'm gone from album Use Me always gives me goosebumps and I'mean like... for real.


----------



## Rin1990

alxw0w said:


> Albums from Vanessa and Madeleine are top notch productions.


OK just listening to the Bird on The Wire from The Blue Room. Now that's some chilling vocals. Magnificent recording too, great share, man.


----------



## Reactcore

Ards said:


> Wanted to start the fight back against the desk shaming photos many post up here with their pristine uncluttered work surfaces.  Here's a real desk!  My desk!  A working desk!


Oh just HP's on, press play and eyes closed😀

2 HD800's?🤔


----------



## Ards

Reactcore said:


> 2 HD800's?🤔


Good spot! The 2nd pair used to live with my main hi-fi until I replaced them.  Now they just live on the desk until I find a better place for them!


----------



## Reactcore

Ards said:


> Good spot! The 2nd pair used to live with my main hi-fi until I replaced them.  Now they just live on the desk until I find a better place for them!


Install a SD mod in them and enjoy😉


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Rin1990 said:


> OK just listening to the Bird on The Wire from The Blue Room. Now that's some chilling vocals. Magnificent recording too, great share, man.


Listen to this, it's fantastic.


----------



## Icenine2

Emmylou Harris. Lot's of releases. Love Wrecking Ball. Daniel Lanois produces and plays. The Live Spyboy has some killer dynamics along w/her.


----------



## Triode User

GuiltyRocker said:


> Listen to this, it's fantastic.


I’m struggling to find Crazy by Daniela Andrade on Qobuz. I think it is on Covers, Vol 2 which I am also struggling to find on Qobuz. Am I being thick (easy) or is it not there?


----------



## Ards

This track (Crazy) featured in a recent show I was watching (was it Umbrella Academy?  Sandman?) but I also couldn't find it on any lossless streamers that I have access to.  Would love to find it somewhere, if available...


----------



## JamieMcC (Sep 13, 2022)

I really can't believe I omitted Lady Blackbird in the female vocal list

Check out her album Black Acid Soul


----------



## Sampajanna

Tidal has it as single. cool song!

Second that : Black Acid Sould is one of my favorite recent albums! So good!


----------



## shaylin3

Great, finally discussing some positive directions, love the singers and albums you share


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Triode User said:


> I’m struggling to find Crazy by Daniela Andrade on Qobuz. I think it is on Covers, Vol 2 which I am also struggling to find on Qobuz. Am I being thick (easy) or is it not there?


It's on the singles section in Tidal under Daniela, I love it.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Hmm, I can contribute some female singers I like a lot too.

First is a Chinese singer, G.E.M.


A korean singer named Younha


last, ill throw in something different, some female fronted power metal, love the power vocals here


----------



## ZappaMan (Sep 13, 2022)

I like listening to this box set, 6 cds long. Trance, proper trance, not cheesy euro beeps.
It’s a pleasure to spend my working day - in a trance - speaking the lyrics like poetry all the way - down tempo - mad tempo - just the best way to go about your work.






Underworld - drift - series 1 - for people with eyesight issues.


----------



## Icenine2

Third coast percussion
Perspective
Perpetulum


----------



## doraymon (Sep 13, 2022)

drew911d said:


> Well said, I'm just catching up so my posts are outdated...  Correct, the ferrites will make it impossible for the current clamp to measure true leakage current.  The other two measurements are good information though, and your idea to measure a part of the cable without ferrites is good.  This clamp will measure overall current, being that it covers all of the wires, line, neutral and ground.  Having a current registered means the line current is not equal to return or neutral and ground.  This is what leakage current is. The current going in is finding another path to return that is not on the same power cable or circuit.  It is going through another component in the system that means a big source of noise.  In a perfect world, every component would have the same return current as supply current on the same supply cable, PS, and not force current through another component (leakage current) to find a return path.
> 
> I work in the avionics industry and leakage current can be a critical requirement from some customers and regulations.  30 micro Amps of leakage current when we're talking about supplying hundreds of amps in 3 phase is sometimes a task to keep under.  It really highlights power and return problems.


I am doing some research on old posts in relation to my quest to reduce noise.
I'm starting a core renovation of my house, including the complete electrical system and I was wondering what I can do in my office/listening room to improve the quality of the power fed to my Dave and other boxes.
The grounding of the system will be completely redone as well.

Any ideas?

PS hurry up with your answers fellas, If wife finds out I'm discussing this with the electrician I get a divorce


----------



## Frankie D

doraymon said:


> I am doing some research on old posts in relation to my quest to reduce noise.
> I'm starting a core renovation of my house, including the complete electrical system and I was wondering what I can do in my office/listening room to improve the quality of the power fed to my Dave and other boxes.
> The grounding of the system will be completely redone as well.
> 
> ...


I added a ground to my house.  I was advised to run an 8 ft long solid copper tube ( I don’t remember the thickness, but I am sure they are standard) into the ground and also ( if you can) run another 8 ft long solid copper tube horizontal to the foundation feet deep ( may be 6 ft. If possible).  Once the electrician does this he can ground the electrical panel to these grounds.  They should help making your electrical power quieter.  Also, see if the electrician can run “ home runs” to each outlet powering your audio system and visual as well if possible.  By using continuous wire back to the electrical panel will also help lower any noise.  

When they did this they found the original ground for my house which looked like a thin piece of aluminum only a couple of feet long.


----------



## Kentajalli

doraymon said:


> I am doing some research on old posts in relation to my quest to reduce noise.
> I'm starting a core renovation of my house, including the complete electrical system and I was wondering what I can do in my office/listening room to improve the quality of the power fed to my Dave and other boxes.
> The grounding of the system will be completely redone as well.
> 
> ...


As far I know, Dave has an Switched mode Powersupply and galvanic isolation on USB.
Various outlets have measured Dave, only to find lowest noise.
So, upgrade, talk to electricians regarding safety, and don't worry about Dave.


----------



## Triode User

Frankie D said:


> I added a ground to my house.  I was advised to run an 8 ft long solid copper tube ( I don’t remember the thickness, but I am sure they are standard) into the ground and also ( if you can) run another 8 ft long solid copper tube horizontal to the foundation feet deep ( may be 6 ft. If possible).  Once the electrician does this he can ground the electrical panel to these grounds.  They should help making your electrical power quieter.  Also, see if the electrician can run “ home runs” to each outlet powering your audio system and visual as well if possible.  By using continuous wire back to the electrical panel will also help lower any noise.
> 
> When they did this they found the original ground for my house which looked like a thin piece of aluminum only a couple of feet long.


In the UK the old style of earthing was that each house used to have its own ground, often a ground rod as you mention or the house earth was connected to an incoming metal water mains pipe or gas pipe. However that is now superseded by a permanently maintained earth provided by the power company to each house on the incoming power company mains cable (and indeed most incoming utilities are in uPVC pipes anyway). The problem then for tinkerers playing with their own ground rod style earth is that if there is ever a fault on the power company earth there is the distinct risk that a whole neighbourhood’s earthing will route itself through your diy earth rod system with dire consequences for you, your hifi system and your house. I’m not saying don’t do it, just be aware of the risks involved.


----------



## Clive101 (Sep 14, 2022)

Triode User said:


> In the UK the old style of earthing was that each house used to have its own ground, often a ground rod as you mention or the house earth was connected to an incoming metal water mains pipe or gas pipe. However that is now superseded by a permanently maintained earth provided by the power company to each house on the incoming power company mains cable (and indeed most incoming utilities are in uPVC pipes anyway). The problem then for tinkerers playing with their own ground rod style earth is that if there is ever a fault on the power company earth there is the distinct risk that a whole neighbourhood’s earthing will route itself through your diy earth rod system with dire consequences for you, your hifi system and your house. I’m not saying don’t do it, just be aware of the risks involved.


Well said, the same danger not only in the UK.
There are products that make this grounging issue safe.

https://www.russandrews.com/eu/system-grounding/

http://www.puritanaudiolabs.com/products/ground-master/

I have added two ground rods connected 20 mtrs from each other. Both are 4 mtrs deep.

I did a quick  A/ B with a 16 mm earth wire connected to an earth rod connected to a DC4 ARC6 without the above device. Instantaneous positive result so went on and purchased a saftey device.

Worth trying IMHO

Edit 
This maybe worth reading.
https://www.russandrews.com/images/pdf/GroundingV6.pdf


----------



## Frankie D

Triode User said:


> In the UK the old style of earthing was that each house used to have its own ground, often a ground rod as you mention or the house earth was connected to an incoming metal water mains pipe or gas pipe. However that is now superseded by a permanently maintained earth provided by the power company to each house on the incoming power company mains cable (and indeed most incoming utilities are in uPVC pipes anyway). The problem then for tinkerers playing with their own ground rod style earth is that if there is ever a fault on the power company earth there is the distinct risk that a whole neighbourhood’s earthing will route itself through your diy earth rod system with dire consequences for you, your hifi system and your house. I’m not saying don’t do it, just be aware of the risks involved.


In the US we are all individually grounded in my area.  I have to believe the electrician should know what is best though if you discuss it with them.  They have to know all the local code/rules etc.  Tks.


----------



## Powersquat

Triode User said:


> In the UK the old style of earthing was that each house used to have its own ground, often a ground rod as you mention or the house earth was connected to an incoming metal water mains pipe or gas pipe. However that is now superseded by a permanently maintained earth provided by the power company to each house on the incoming power company mains cable (and indeed most incoming utilities are in uPVC pipes anyway). The problem then for tinkerers playing with their own ground rod style earth is that if there is ever a fault on the power company earth there is the distinct risk that a whole neighbourhood’s earthing will route itself through your diy earth rod system with dire consequences for you, your hifi system and your house. I’m not saying don’t do it, just be aware of the risks involved.



Absolutely, I still have interests in the construction industry , one of my electricians confirmed what you said above, it would be inadvisable to connect my HiFi to it's own separate earth as most modern properties in the UK are earthed using PME or similar. 
After some research and further discussions with the electrician I decided to ground my pre and power amplifiers with a Russ Andrews Earth Router, this device is connected to the ground screws of the pre and power ams with ground wire and then simply plugged into a spare wall outlet. 
I freely admit I was a little sceptical, but Russ Andrews offers a 60 day return policy, hence I decided to give it a go. I have to say I was pleasantly surprised with the result, both resolution and sound staging were noticeably improved, particularly the depth of soundstage.   

Of course this is my experience in my system, you pays your money and takes your choice.


----------



## Kentajalli

Powersquat said:


> Absolutely, I still have interests in the construction industry , one of my electricians confirmed what you said above, it would be inadvisable to connect my HiFi to it's own separate earth as most modern properties in the UK are earthed using PME or similar.
> After some research and further discussions with the electrician I decided to ground my pre and power amplifiers with a Russ Andrews Earth Router, this device is connected to the ground screws of the pre and power ams with ground wire and then simply plugged into a spare wall outlet.
> I freely admit I was a little sceptical, but Russ Andrews offers a 60 day return policy, hence I decided to give it a go. I have to say I was pleasantly surprised with the result, both resolution and sound staging were noticeably improved, particularly the depth of soundstage.
> 
> Of course this is my experience in my system, you pays your money and takes your choice.


If you are worried about ground loop noise, just disconnect ground from all your hifi devices! Sounds silly, don't it? But it isn't,
All you loose, is a bit of safety, that is, should there be a major blow up inside your device, *AND *you be unlucky enough for the fuse not to blow, *AND *the live wire touch the metal casing *AND *your house wiring not have an RCD, Then, *and only then *if you touch the metal casing you can get a serious shock! 
*Otherwise, *no noise interfering! 
A lot of things have to go wrong at the same time, for that to happen, So, is there a risk? Sure! 
But I take it, if I thought I was having ground noise interfering.
The above is the easiest way! But there are safer ways to lift the ground connection AND keep electrical safety intact, using a pair of parallel diodes.


----------



## Clive101 (Sep 15, 2022)

I added the ground rod not for hum but as an experiment to my Dave system, it was dead quite before the addition of the ground rod.

With the extra ground rod and saftey device I gained IMO better SQ.

The earth wire is a return path for live to your consumer unit in case of a fault.
Upgrade you ground rod by all means for the house but please do not earth your HiFi to an additional and or ground rod without some saftey device.

I strongly suggest investigating the use of ground rods, Mike Holt.

 Edit link change
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...CBD360409665659F8088CBD360409665&&FORM=VRDGAR

There are many videos from the same person but the link above is a starter.

Or

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Grounding+Myths+NEC+Mike+Holt&&view=detail&mid=31543A2E0A90E5252FB531543A2E0A90E5252FB5&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=/videos/search?q=Grounding+Myths+NEC+Mike+Holt&FORM=VDMHRS

Many have been electrocuted by ground rods being fitted where they should not be !


----------



## Ards

I'm using the Nordost QKore grounding system with great success.   Of course, we've already established I have crappy mains, so perhaps YMMV, but grounding is now definitely on my todo list as necessary for any future hi-fi builds.


----------



## Triode User

Kentajalli said:


> If you are worried about ground loop noise,


I’m not sure that the guys are talking about ground loop noise.


----------



## Kentajalli

Triode User said:


> I’m not sure that the guys are talking about ground loop noise.


What are they talking about?


----------



## Powersquat

Triode User said:


> I’m not sure that the guys are talking about ground loop noise.



certainly in my case I don't believe I had any issue with ground loops, just general grunge in the mains earth, just grounding the casework on the pre and power amps to the Russ Andrews device certainly had a positive impact.

There are many who believe grounding a spare input/output, RCA or XLR to a passive ground box such as those offered by the likes of Entreq, they have many positive reviews, but I have no experience with this kind of device.


----------



## Kentajalli (Sep 15, 2022)

Powersquat said:


> certainly in my case I don't believe I had any issue with ground loops, just general grunge in the mains earth, just grounding the casework on the pre and power amps to the Russ Andrews device certainly had a positive impact.
> 
> There are many who believe grounding a spare input/output, RCA or XLR to a passive ground box such as those offered by the likes of Entreq, they have many positive reviews, but I have no experience with this kind of device.


I am not familiar with the device.
But electrically speaking, noise of any nature needs an entry point AND an exit point to flow. by giving devices multiple earths, you cause the very thing you want to avoid.
If you think you got noise issue, disconnect earth connections, instead, use pieces of wire to connect each device metal body to a common device, say the Amp.
so preamp to Amp, DAC to amp, DAP to amp.
This is basics of star grounding. works for lower frequency noise .
Noise does not seek the ground wire specifically , so sticking a long copper rod into the earth, does not mean you get less noise .
Noise needs the ground wires to flow, from one ground wire to another ground wire, deny it.


----------



## Clive101

As I said, I did the simple test without the safety device with Dave the rest was history.
The above link by a different manufacturer "perhaps" explains the issue ?


----------



## Reactcore (Sep 15, 2022)

Kentajalli said:


> If you are worried about ground loop noise, just disconnect ground from all your hifi devices!



Too bad double isolation is not allowed anymore.. My POA S10 Amps work perfectly without a ground

And no fancy mains cable😄


----------



## Powersquat

Kentajalli said:


> I am not familiar with the device.
> But electrically speaking, noise of any nature needs an entry point AND an exit point to flow. by giving devices multiple earths, you cause the very thing you want to avoid.
> If you think you got noise issue, disconnect earth connections, instead, use pieces of wire to connect each device metal body to a common device, say the Amp.
> so preamp to Amp, DAC to amp, DAP to amp.
> ...



You evidently know what you're talking about, I have no practical electrical skills, I had no perception of noise in my system beforehand, it was merely a whim to see what happened if I connected my components casework together and terminating the ground wire to an earth point. My electrician soon put me straight on the question of connecting to an external earth rod, not advisable and I suspect  had I asked him to disconnect the earth on my components I'd have got a very similar answer. 

However my electrician did a little research on my behalf and came up with the idea of trying the earth routing device, but both of us were sceptical, but to my ears at least it improved the sound of my system, can I explain what the device does or how it works, no I can't, all I can say is that I've had it connected in my system for almost 3 years and I have no desire to remove it. 





Kentajalli said:


> Noise needs the ground wires to flow, from one ground wire to another ground wire, deny it.



Deny what?, as I said, what I know about electricity you can place on the top of a pin.


----------



## kumar402

Somatic said:


> Nice. I remember a couple of years ago I started cleaning my desk daily and slowly started to get minimalist with it. But my desk used to be more cluttered before. Now I just have a spiral notebook, a highlighter and a nice pen. Should go all digital but I’m old school.


Few things can't be replaced and notebook and actual pen is one of them.


----------



## Somatic

kumar402 said:


> Few things can't be replaced and notebook and actual pen is one of them.


Some people use task apps on the PC. I like to write stuff out.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Well, this is interesting, i pulled this from the current Stereophile issue discussing their top rated recommended products, 😂


----------



## Ciggavelli (Sep 15, 2022)

GuiltyRocker said:


> Well, this is interesting, i pulled this from the current Stereophile issue discussing their top rated recommended products, 😂




They've also had the DAVE as one of their highest recommended dacs for like years now.  That's actually a publication that I respect, in general (aside from any DAVE recommendation)


----------



## Kentajalli

Powersquat said:


> Deny what?, as I said, what I know about electricity you can place on the top of a pin.


_. . . Noise *needs *the ground wires to flow, from one ground wire to another ground wire, *deny *it.    _ 

Deny _noise _multiple _earth connections_, or any earth connections_. 
_


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Ciggavelli said:


> They've also had the DAVE as one of their highest recommended dacs for like years now.  That's actually a publication that I respect, in general (aside from any DAVE recommendation)


The DAVE came up again as Class A+ top recommended, love it.


----------



## Powersquat

Kentajalli said:


> _. . . Noise *needs *the ground wires to flow, from one ground wire to another ground wire, *deny *it.    _
> 
> Deny _noise _multiple _earth connections_, or any earth connections_. _


_Thank's for the explanation._


----------



## Icenine2

The new DCA Expanse looks to be great. I'd love to listen on my rig. I already own Stealth.


----------



## Icenine2

Floyd fans. I just finished ripping new Animals BD to file. Oh boy. It's a monster. NEVER heard it sound this good. DR is crazy good too.


----------



## ra990

Icenine2 said:


> Floyd fans. I just finished ripping new Animals BD to file. Oh boy. It's a monster. NEVER heard it sound this good. DR is crazy good too.


The Dogs guitar solo is Gilmour's best, IMO. I'll try to get my hands on this version.


----------



## Icenine2

The Bass on this is beyond great.


----------



## Sampajanna

Is this a new version? What is BD?


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Sampajanna said:


> Is this a new version? What is BD?


I'm guessing he means Blu-ray Disc.


----------



## Icenine2

Yes Blu-Ray 24/192


----------



## ra990

Icenine2 said:


> Floyd fans. I just finished ripping new Animals BD to file. Oh boy. It's a monster. NEVER heard it sound this good. DR is crazy good too.


Just listened on Qobuz. Damn, what a revelatory remix. Brings out so much in the mix I've never heard before. It sounds like they toned down the FX on the vocals and they sound more dry and raw. The drums have such nice impact on the fills. Roger's bass playing has never sounded more rhythmic and bouncy. The keys have such nice texture. And that Gilmour guitar...absolutely loved it.


----------



## Kentajalli (Sep 18, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> Is this a new version? What is BD?





New remix.
https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/animals-pink-floyd/kttoy9s0mvyhb
My most favourite Floyd album!
All the anger and sadness - brings a tear to my eyes everytime.

BTW, if anyone is interested, this is a true "The final cut" cover art, as it was meant to be.


----------



## Sampajanna

Found it! Exciting!


----------



## JTbbb

Wow, where have they been hiding this! Listening right now.


----------



## Reactcore

Hm lets search my server.. trading rips has advantages



Havent heard this one before
Its not the 2018 one though


----------



## miketlse

For everyone who has not been following the Canjam SoCal threads, here is an interesting interview with The Source AV that Rob had yesterday


----------



## Kentajalli (Sep 18, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> Hm lets search my server.. trading rips has advantages
> Havent heard this one before
> Its not the 2018 one though


I know, this is getting a bit subject unrelated, but the new Pink Floyd Animals mix and release, has qualities that can set it as a test track.
Specially the bass.
In the olden days of Vinyl LP, very low bass was cut off, because it was difficult to cut, or it would clip. Sadly a lot of recordings have this cut permanently imposed on them.
Take a look at this:





This is from Pigs. See where the bass cut-off frequency is! I see less than 25Hz, and a healthy output in the 30-40Hz.
Also this:





This is from Pigs on the wing 2.
There is clean output to just above 20kHz and then cleanly cut.


----------



## Kentajalli (Sep 18, 2022)

.


----------



## miketlse

Kentajalli said:


> And the guy is having a neckband with dcS printed on it!


Is that your criterion for deciding whether you want to watch the interview?


----------



## Kentajalli

miketlse said:


> Is that your criterion for deciding whether you want to watch the interview?


Actually I realized that was a stupid post by me, so I deleted it.


----------



## miketlse (Sep 18, 2022)

Kentajalli said:


> Actually I realized that was a stupid post by me, so I deleted it.


OK. The Source AV did several live interviews yesterday (and will today), and you made me wonder if people expected him to change what he was wearing for each interview. 
It could also be that DCS have sponsored the badges/neckstraps for all exhibitors/attendees.


----------



## Kentajalli

miketlse said:


> OK. The Source AV did several live interviews yesterday (and will today), and you made me wonder if people expected him to change what he was wearing for each interview.
> It could also be that DCS have sponsored the badges/neckstraps for all exhibitors/attendees.


No. But for an interviewer to wear a pin or a neck-band that advertises for a company, is careless, or was it?
It is like seeing a can of Coke in movies, when the story calls for a cold drink.
It is product-placement.
But then again, dCs had these head-bands everywhere at CanJam London too. Even Hifiman's rep was wearing one! when I asked him if he was from Hifiman, he was puzzled!
And I told him why I had asked.


----------



## Musikfan

Hi, is there a noticeable difference or drop in audio quality using the Dave with RCA or XLR Interconnects?  I'm using the Dave with the Pathos inpol ear headphone amp.  Thanks, James


----------



## ecwl

Musikfan said:


> Hi, is there a noticeable difference or drop in audio quality using the Dave with RCA or XLR Interconnects?  I'm using the Dave with the Pathos inpol ear headphone amp.  Thanks, James


I prefer my DAVE using RCA over XLR. But I think your mileage depends not just on DAVE but also your amp. My amp is fully balanced too but I use speakers and I use DAVE as the digital preamp. Whereas I don’t know how much you’ll use your DAVE for volume control and how much you’ll use the Pathos’s volume control. Another issue is that if you put DAVE in DAC mode, the 6V XLR output might exceed your Pathos max 4.4V input and clip the signal. 

Ideally, you want the same brand and sets of RCA & XLR cables feeding Pathos putting through the same voltage into Pathos to compare (so RCA volume on DAVE would probably be 6dB higher than XLR unless your Pathos amplifies RCA signals by +6dB). 

To me, while there is a mildly noticeable difference between RCA & XLR, if you don’t have the opportunity to compare, I wouldn’t worry too much about it. At the end of the day, most of these subtle differences are not that significant. But yes, more audiophiles love optimizing their system so even a very subtle difference become super significant. But honestly, in your case, I think optimizing the exact volume setting for DAVE & Pathos would provide better sound than trying to figure out whether RCA or XLR is better.


----------



## miketlse

Kentajalli said:


> No. But for an interviewer to wear a pin or a neck-band that advertises for a company, is careless, or was it?
> It is like seeing a can of Coke in movies, when the story calls for a cold drink.
> It is product-placement.
> But then again, dCs had these head-bands everywhere at CanJam London too. Even Hifiman's rep was wearing one! when I asked him if he was from Hifiman, he was puzzled!
> And I told him why I had asked.


Yes it is product placement.

Everyone seems to be wearing the same neck bands
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/can...ead-september-17-18-2022.964899/post-17149007
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/can...ead-september-17-18-2022.964899/post-17148454
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/can...ead-september-17-18-2022.964899/post-17148462

That is why companies sponsor such events.
It is the same at most events, conferences etc.


----------



## Kentajalli

miketlse said:


> Yes it is product placement.
> 
> Everyone seems to be wearing the same neck bands
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/can...ead-september-17-18-2022.964899/post-17149007
> ...


RW was wearing Chords own though!
Frankly it gets confusing, as the case of Hifiman's rep.
I could not see his name tag, and the only thing on him said dCs !


----------



## kawhia

ecwl said:


> I prefer my DAVE using RCA over XLR. But I think your mileage depends not just on DAVE but also your amp. My amp is fully balanced too but I use speakers and I use DAVE as the digital preamp. Whereas I don’t know how much you’ll use your DAVE for volume control and how much you’ll use the Pathos’s volume control. Another issue is that if you put DAVE in DAC mode, the 6V XLR output might exceed your Pathos max 4.4V input and clip the signal.
> 
> Ideally, you want the same brand and sets of RCA & XLR cables feeding Pathos putting through the same voltage into Pathos to compare (so RCA volume on DAVE would probably be 6dB higher than XLR unless your Pathos amplifies RCA signals by +6dB).
> 
> To me, while there is a mildly noticeable difference between RCA & XLR, if you don’t have the opportunity to compare, I wouldn’t worry too much about it. At the end of the day, most of these subtle differences are not that significant. But yes, more audiophiles love optimizing their system so even a very subtle difference become super significant. But honestly, in your case, I think optimizing the exact volume setting for DAVE & Pathos would provide better sound than trying to figure out whether RCA or XLR is better.s


some weeks ago I experimented with rca and xlr between my DAVE and Riviera AIC amplifier. I had a hard time hearing the differences, let alone forming an opinion on what I liked more. sitting in my listening chair now I am not even sure what I left connected eventually, I think it is the xlr cable 😂. 
So I completely agree, the differences are marginal, but a nice thing to spend your time with! Have fun comparing.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

miketlse said:


> For everyone who has not been following the Canjam SoCal threads, here is an interesting interview with The Source AV that Rob had yesterday




Christer going have a stroke when he finds out Rob likes electronic dance music.


----------



## Triode User

AnalogEuphoria said:


> Christer going have a stroke when he finds out Rob likes electronic dance music.


I will have to watch a second time. Did he say ‘listens’ to it or ‘likes’ it. There is a difference!


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Triode User said:


> I will have to watch a second time. Did he say ‘listens’ to it or ‘likes’ it. There is a difference!



He seems to really enjoy it from that live stream video that was posted up. We don't choose what we like it happens naturally so I think music genre snobbery is absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## Triode User

AnalogEuphoria said:


> He seems to really enjoy it from that live stream video that was posted up.* We don't choose what we like it happens naturally so I think music genre snobbery is absolutely ridiculous.*


I absolutely agree with you. Equally we don’t choose what we dislike. It just happens naturally. 

For the record I dislike electronic dance music but I will defend other peoples right to like it. 👌


----------



## Ards (Sep 19, 2022)

Triode User said:


> I absolutely agree with you. Equally we don’t choose what we dislike. It just happens naturally.


Nature vs. nurture.  As with many of these things, there's nearly always a biological component in there somewhere, ie a built-in predilection towards certain things.  There is clearly a strong biological bias towards listening to music the way we do - mostly males - mostly handsome (ok, I made that one up!) - but biological preference for genres?  I'm less sure.  However, Rob is an engineer, so I wouldn't be surprised to find he's naturally drawn to the highly organised structure of EDM...


----------



## Kentajalli

AnalogEuphoria said:


> He seems to really enjoy it from that live stream video that was posted up. We don't choose what we like it happens naturally so I think music genre snobbery is absolutely ridiculous.


Well is that hard to grasp?
Through his work and his listening tests, he is exposed to sine waves, square waves and all sorts!
Perhaps he misses it when not working . . .


----------



## The Jester

Surely there’s no square waves in Jazz ?


----------



## LucyWu

Squares don't dig jazz, man.


----------



## Rob Watts

Triode User said:


> I will have to watch a second time. Did he say ‘listens’ to it or ‘likes’ it. There is a difference!


Likes and listens. But then it depends what you define as dance music. I guess I should have said electronica, as that's a more accurate description.

So recent non classical music I have been enjoying over the summer - Billie Eilish, Boris Blank, Culprate, Daft Punk, Erased Tapes, Felix Laband, Hans Zimmer, Johann Johannsson, Leonard Cohen, Trent Reznor (Mank), Max Richter, One Eskimo, Patti Smith, Pink Floyd, Public Service Broadcasting, Radio Massacre International, Ramin Djawadi (Game of Thrones), Rick Wakeman, Yes, Sohn, Tomita, Trentmoller, Villagers, Yello, Olafur Arnalds, Hildur Guonadottir and finally Tangerine Dream.


----------



## LucyWu

Workaround by Beatrice Dillon is a fantastic piece of electronica, lots of space. Sounds fantastic via Dave.


----------



## Reactcore

miketlse said:


> For everyone who has not been following the Canjam SoCal threads, here is an interesting interview with The Source AV that Rob had yesterday



Just watched this.. was too busy writing another thread.

Its almost scary to see Rob's exitement talking about what hes hearing on a 1sec delayed scaling.. 😬why am i preparing for another fight with my wife as why i need to part with my kidney


----------



## miketlse

AnalogEuphoria said:


> Christer going have a stroke when he finds out Rob likes electronic dance music.


Personally I am no great fan of EDM.
However I find both Mojo and Hugo 2 do a great job with Kraftwerk, Can, Neu, plus some of the other types of alternative electronic music from previous decades.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Reactcore said:


> Just watched this.. was too busy writing another thread.
> 
> Its almost scary to see Rob's exitement talking about what hes hearing on a 1sec delayed scaling.. 😬why am i preparing for another fight with my wife as why i need to part with my kidney


Hahaahahahahhahahahahahahhaa, get ready 😂


----------



## GuiltyRocker

I invited a friend over the Weekend to listen to my Chord and Parasound Combo, he has a Naim DAC which is 5k, McIntosh stuff and Focal, he was blown away completely, we listened to music for 5 hours straight at concert levels and I had to keep picking up his jaw from the floor. As @Rob Watts also says, zero ear fatigue. He was so impressed that he's decided to buy a Chord M Scaler and Qutest plus Parasound JC-5/JC-2.  I think I'm going to need to switch careers to the audio industry, as I keep selling this stuff without trying.  😂


----------



## The Jester

Can’t beat a few hours first hand experience vs hours/days/weeks reading reviews and forum posts … 👍


----------



## Reactcore

GuiltyRocker said:


> I think I'm going to need to switch careers to the audio industry, as I keep selling this stuff without trying.  😂


So start working on your speech to sell the coming Chord £100k+ Ultimate DAC 🤐😂


----------



## Triode User

GuiltyRocker said:


> I invited a friend over the Weekend to listen to my Chord and Parasound Combo, he has a Naim DAC which is 5k, McIntosh stuff and Focal, he was blown away completely, we listened to music for 5 hours straight at concert levels and I had to keep picking up his jaw from the floor. As @Rob Watts also says, zero ear fatigue. He was so impressed that he's decided to buy a Chord M Scaler and Qutest plus Parasound JC-5/JC-2.  I think I'm going to need to switch careers to the audio industry, as I keep selling this stuff without trying.  😂


It’s easy to convince people about Chord Dacs once they hear them. I loaned my Dave to a friend earlier in the year and the week after he traded most of his kit to a Chord dealer and bought a new Dave. He was blown away by the sound.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Reactcore said:


> So start working on your speech to sell the coming Chord £100k+ Ultimate DAC 🤐😂


Hahahahahahahahaha


----------



## Triode User

Reactcore said:


> So start working on your speech to sell the coming Chord £100k+ Ultimate DAC 🤐😂


By the way, RW has already clarified that the Ultima DAC he is working on is not planned to cost that much and he only mentioned that figure by way of example of the cost of DACs made by other companies.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Triode User said:


> By the way, RW has already clarified that the Ultima DAC he is working on is not planned to cost that much and he only mentioned that figure by way of example of the cost of DACs made by other companies.


I saw that, we'll see how much it'll cost.


----------



## stemiki

And so, after learning that it was possible, here is DAVE powered by a 160 VdC / 3.5 Ah lithium-ion battery, without any inverter.  

Operating voltage: 160 (max) – 120 (min) Vdc.

BMS for charging management and protection, designed free from EMI/RFI emissions.  Outgoing have been put Neotech solid core UP OCC cables.

Like the other battery I use for the streamer and the MScaler, a double timer disconnects automatically at set times the charging from both the socket side and the battery side plug, completely isolating all audio components from the mains while listening and reconnects at night for charging, resulting also protected from possible thunderstorms or overvoltages.

It was delivered to me a few days ago, so I'll update with further comments regarding the audio result.


----------



## Reactcore

stemiki said:


> And so, after learning that it was possible, here is DAVE powered by a 160 VdC / 3.5 Ah lithium-ion battery, without any inverter.


Yup Dave can run on DC voltage
No switching to make AC means cleaner power. Time for a nice housing😉

Looking forward to your critical listening impressions compared to net feeded


----------



## alxw0w

stemiki said:


> And so, after learning that it was possible, here is DAVE powered by a 160 VdC / 3.5 Ah lithium-ion battery, without any inverter.
> 
> Operating voltage: 160 (max) – 120 (min) Vdc.
> 
> ...


Waiting for the impressions. 
Impatiently


----------



## pichler

+ 1, wow


----------



## STR-1

Rob Watts said:


> Likes and listens. But then it depends what you define as dance music. I guess I should have said electronica, as that's a more accurate description.
> 
> So recent non classical music I have been enjoying over the summer - Billie Eilish, Boris Blank, Culprate, Daft Punk, Erased Tapes, Felix Laband, Hans Zimmer, Johann Johannsson, Leonard Cohen, Trent Reznor (Mank), Max Richter, One Eskimo, Patti Smith, Pink Floyd, Public Service Broadcasting, Radio Massacre International, Ramin Djawadi (Game of Thrones), Rick Wakeman, Yes, Sohn, Tomita, Trentmoller, Villagers, Yello, Olafur Arnalds, Hildur Guonadottir and finally Tangerine Dream.


What, no Kate Bush?


----------



## Kentajalli

STR-1 said:


> What, no Kate Bush?


Dave Gilmour of Pink Floyd, prodigy !
he helped to get her going .


----------



## Somatic (Sep 21, 2022)

Hear to ask advice from the master Headfiers  ...

Buying a custom 1m XLR interconnect from Arctic Cables. I have silver RCA interconnects already but want to try a very good copper cable as well. Was going to get the Apeiron 15.5 AWG Copper OCC Litz. For interconnects I can get some cheap Neutrik 3-pin XLR or pony up for NEOTECH NEX-OCC RH (solid copper/rhodium plated) plugs. These plugs are highly expensive and am able to get a discount on them (15%).

https://www.arcticcables.com/apeiron

My question if I'm going for end game XLR interconnect from Dave to power amp. Would the plug make a subjective difference? Can the plug be the bottleneck of someones end game system? Thanks.


----------



## auricgoldfinger

If you want an endgame interconnect, the first thing you should do is ditch the litz cable for one made with solid core conductors.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

auricgoldfinger said:


> If you want an endgame interconnect, the first thing you should do is ditch the litz cable for one made with solid core conductors.


What is the reason to do this?


----------



## auricgoldfinger

GuiltyRocker said:


> What is the reason to do this?



Much fuller, detailed sound.  Frankly, everything about them is far better.  I was blown away when I tried this RCA interconnect after using a well-known brand of litz cables costing twice as much. The difference was night and day, and I was embarrassed to have overpaid to such a degree for my litz interconnects.  VH Audio also makes XLR interconnects.  There are many manufacturers to choose from.  These  just happened to be the ones I directly compared to the litz cables. As a starting point, I suggest you look at the offerings here.


----------



## Somatic

auricgoldfinger said:


> Much fuller, detailed sound.  Frankly, everything about them is far better.  I was blown away when I tried this RCA interconnect after using a well-known brand of litz cables costing twice as much. The difference was night and day, and I was embarrassed to have overpaid to such a degree for my litz interconnects.  VH Audio also makes XLR interconnects.  There are many manufacturers to choose from.  These  just happened to be the ones I directly compared to the litz cables. As a starting point, I suggest you look at the offerings here.


Hmm I see, which litz cables did you use? Isn't litz supposed to help with reducing skin effect losses? Thanks.

Anyone can let me know about the plugs? Cheap Neutrik 3-pin XLR (brass, gold plated) vs NEOTECH NEX-OCC RH (copper/rhodium plated) ... do plugs make a difference in very revealing systems? Thanks.


----------



## auricgoldfinger

Somatic said:


> Hmm I see, which litz cables did you use? Isn't litz supposed to help with reducing skin effect losses? Thanks.



I'd prefer not to give a name.  Reducing skin effect losses is a typical selling point for litz cables.  I only go by what I hear.  In my experience, litz cables are best suited for IEMs.


----------



## Somatic

Has anyone modified the Dave's XLR that are mounted in for Pure Copper version (whatever plating)?


----------



## auricgoldfinger

@Somatic Look for XLR interconnects with as low a capacitance as possible.  Low capacitance is best achieved using small wire gauge but also aided by the use of an air dielectric.


----------



## auricgoldfinger

The Iconoclast 4x4 is an interesting "budget" cable with the properties I mentioned above.  In addition, this cable effectively has 16x more conductor than most other companies' interconnects.

https://www.iconoclastcable.com/blog/?cat=13

https://www.iconoclastcable.com/xlr/index.htm


----------



## GuiltyRocker

auricgoldfinger said:


> @Somatic Look for XLR interconnects with as low a capacitance as possible.  Low capacitance is best achieved using small wire gauge but also aided by the use of an air dielectric.


Interesting, I've read this many times, on speaker cables the best thing to avoid is inductance.   Litz is supposed to help with noise-rejection, so it's interesting that you're experiencing better sound without it.


----------



## muski

Rob Watts said:


> Likes and listens. But then it depends what you define as dance music. I guess I should have said electronica, as that's a more accurate description.
> 
> So recent non classical music I have been enjoying over the summer - Billie Eilish, Boris Blank, Culprate, Daft Punk, Erased Tapes, Felix Laband, Hans Zimmer, Johann Johannsson, Leonard Cohen, Trent Reznor (Mank), Max Richter, One Eskimo, Patti Smith, Pink Floyd, Public Service Broadcasting, Radio Massacre International, Ramin Djawadi (Game of Thrones), Rick Wakeman, Yes, Sohn, Tomita, Trentmoller, Villagers, Yello, Olafur Arnalds, Hildur Guonadottir and finally Tangerine Dream.


Given your excellent list, you might enjoy Scottish guitarist Sean Shibe’s Lost & Found release. It sounds especially great on M Scaler + DAVE—hearing the attacks/decays of his electric guitar brings another level of listening joy. (His Bach album is also great.)

http://open.qobuz.com/album/daudkv7gnf1cc

Not to be judged by its unusual cover.


----------



## Reactcore

Somatic said:


> Has anyone modified the Dave's XLR that are mounted in for Pure Copper version (whatever plating)?


If your amp can do SE too try using a cable from the HP jack in front.. you bypass one internal relay then. See the schematic i posted earlier


----------



## Triode User

auricgoldfinger said:


> The Iconoclast 4x4 is an interesting "budget" cable with the properties I mentioned above.  In addition, this cable effectively has 16x more conductor than most other companies' interconnects.
> 
> https://www.iconoclastcable.com/blog/?cat=13
> 
> https://www.iconoclastcable.com/xlr/index.htm


I use the Iconoclast 4x4 Gen2 OCC XLR between my Dave and power amps. I’m not sure I would call it a budget cable. I used to have Belden 8760 cables which I still think are very good and I would definitely call them budget cables.


----------



## MvRBE10

I use a tube with mundurf silver angelica wire and very light xlr plugs from elecaudio cx101/102 that sound amazing and also have kimber copies that match the original and really sing.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

I can also say that I recently switched to the Iconoclast gen2 RCA cables and though I am a cable skeptic, they made a meaningful difference in separation vs my previous blue jeans LC-1s


----------



## Ards

SoupRKnowva said:


> and though I am a cable skeptic, they made a meaningful difference


And so, you are no longer a cable sceptic?


----------



## alxw0w

@Triode User I have a question regarding new Roon 2.0 release.
Has anything changed in terms of SQ? Or it's still better to stay with LMS?


----------



## Triode User

alxw0w said:


> @Triode User I have a question regarding new Roon 2.0 release.
> Has anything changed in terms of SQ? Or it's still better to stay with LMS?


At the suggestion of another Chord owner I am trying Roon again and this time at his suggestion I am just trying Roon for a longer period rather than swopping back and forth to LMS. 

The 2.0 version of Roon was launched part way through this process and I can’t say I heard any difference between 1.8 and 2.0. 

At the moment I am using Roon with HQP on pass through (no upscaling) as the player to my Mscaler + Dave because that has been suggested as often being the best way to use Roon. I guess the test for me will be when I try LMS again. 

So I’m afraid I haven’t answered your question but I am trying to answer it for myself in due course!


----------



## kawhia

There is no difference in sq between 1.8 and 2.0


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Listening to music at concert levels for hours and hours and no ear fatigue, i just want to say again LONG LIVE ROB WATTS!  @Rob Watts .


----------



## stemiki

stemiki said:


> And so, after learning that it was possible, here is DAVE powered by a 160 VdC / 3.5 Ah lithium-ion battery, without any inverter.
> 
> Operating voltage: 160 (max) – 120 (min) Vdc.
> 
> ...


Here are my impressions of using battery powered DAVE,as well as for the rest of the system, consisting of the Lumin U1 mini and M Scaler streamers. 

The streaming platform used is Qobuz, connected via ethernet cable to Sky Wifi (fiber optic router).

The connection between Lumin and M Scaler is via Toslink cable, while between M Scaler and DAVE is via Silver BNC cables.

I state that the realization of the battery for DAVE was carried out after observing the results obtained with M Scaler and Lumin and understanding that the disturbances 
generated by the home network are insidious and very difficult to eliminate. So that was the way to go.

We come to the perceived differences, after a few days of listening and A / B tests, returning to the mains.

I state that these differences are not "macroscopic" but are to be understood as further improvements to a system, in my opinion, already excellent.

The sense of "digital sound", if it can be called that, understood as a sense of artificial on the higher frequencies, which was perceived in some pieces / recordings, has completely disappeared.

This is immediately highlighted by the Abyss which, being very revealing, clearly exposes all hardness. The sound is always very detailed, rich in nuances and micro details, yet soft.

The instruments, although DAVE is already very good at this, highlight further better separation and focus.

One thing I noticed: the on / off HF filter no longer seems to have any influence on the sound. I have always preferred HF off because activated it gave me a sense of "shortness of breath" to the music.

It also seems that there is no limit to increasing the volume, it does not break down in the slightest: with the softer high frequencies the mids come to the fore. Full-bodied and more precise bass
they increase the depth and everything improves together.

Another thing I observed: now the additional difference of the M Scaler is very noticeable. Feel every change in frequency up to 768 KHz where the sound expands in an incredible way.

I consider myself satisfied with the result obtained. It was a leap in the dark, at worst I would have been satisfied with having isolated the system against possible overvoltages or storms.


----------



## SteveHulk

stemiki said:


> Here are my impressions of using battery powered DAVE,as well as for the rest of the system, consisting of the Lumin U1 mini and M Scaler streamers.
> 
> The streaming platform used is Qobuz, connected via ethernet cable to Sky Wifi (fiber optic router).
> 
> ...


Good job mate 👍🏼


----------



## Reactcore (Sep 27, 2022)

stemiki said:


> Here are my impressions of using battery powered DAVE,as well as for the rest of the system, consisting of the Lumin U1 mini and M Scaler streamers.
> 
> The streaming platform used is Qobuz, connected via ethernet cable to Sky Wifi (fiber optic router).
> 
> ...


Good to read that my suggestion to run Dave's original SMPS on DC has this result 👌

Im still hesitating to build the same or ditch the SMPS and feed +5, +15 and -15 vdc direct off batteries.

My opinion is still that the 0.5A max on -15v limits the dynamics.. i heard Farad's effect on the low freqs cause of more reserve in supercaps


----------



## TheAttorney

Reactcore said:


> Good to read that my suggestion to run Dave's original SMPS on DC has this result 👌


So what is the theory as to why it's OK to feed DAVE's AC input with a DC supply?
I do generally follow this thread, but somehow must have missed this intriguing suggestion.


----------



## Reactcore

TheAttorney said:


> So what is the theory as to why it's OK to feed DAVE's AC input with a DC supply?
> I do generally follow this thread, but somehow must have missed this intriguing suggestion.


The benefit is not having a switching ac converter in the battery pack.
So cleanest power possible.


----------



## TheAttorney (Sep 29, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> The benefit is not having a switching ac converter in the battery pack.
> So cleanest power possible.


That's not what I meant.
DAVE's smps was designed to receive an AC current.
Instead it receives a DC current, which is something it was not designed to do (as far as I know).
Why is that apparent mismatch OK in practice?


----------



## alxw0w

TheAttorney said:


> That's not what I meant.
> DAVE's smpt was designed to receive an AC current.
> Instead it receives a DC current, which is something it was not designed to do (as far as I know).
> Why is that apparent mismatch OK in practice?


Actually SMPS are capable of working on DC power, hence you can connect Dave direct to DC power source.


----------



## LucyWu

Reactcore said:


> Good to read that my suggestion to run Dave's original SMPS on DC has this result 👌
> 
> Im still hesitating to build the same or ditch the SMPS and feed +5, +15 and -15 vdc direct off batteries.
> 
> My opinion is still that the 0.5A max on -15v limits the dynamics.. i heard Farad's effect on the low freqs cause of more reserve in supercaps


In my experience (using shunt regulators where I can set the total current available from the output rails at + and - 15v) Dave does not draw anywhere near half an amp on either rail. My one caveat to this statement is that I haven't tried with a heavy load on the headphone output. (I use RCA outs only.)

Batteries generally do not offer the lowest noise, nor the lowest output impedance at any frequency. Lithium polymer packs with many cells in parallel can improve this but you would need to spend a lot of time matching cells and ensure all soldered joints have identical characteristics (otherwise you end up drawing more current from some of the cells and balanced charging becomes critical). And more cells means more noise. And you still have to regulate the voltage - it's a lot of work. If you are trying to get only the benefit of isolation from the mains, it may be worth it (but it's been tried and found to lack the ultimate  performance of a high performance regulated mains supply (Sean Jacob's DC4/ARC6 - there was a write up over on AS as I recall).


----------



## LucyWu (Sep 28, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> Actually SMPS are capable of working on DC power, hence you can connect Dave direct to DC power source.


So you achieve galvanic isolation but still have the smps. Win one, lose one?


----------



## alxw0w

LucyWu said:


> So you achieve glavanic isolation but still have the smps. Win one, lose one?


I wouldn't call it win one lose one.
As we can read from @stemiki impressions effect was rather very positive.

Another question is whatever it is better to have DC battery powering stock Dave SMPS or it's better to use something like farad3/Sean Jacobs dc4 - that's something I cannot and probably nobody can answer without direct comparisons.


----------



## Reactcore

LucyWu said:


> Dave does not draw anywhere near half an amp on either rail. My one caveat to this statement is that I haven't tried with a heavy load on the headphone output. (I use RCA outs only.)



Its not about drawing the max current..
but about the voltage being more steady and not fluctuating with the music output.. even a variation of micro volts can be noticable.. its a form of noise modulation.


----------



## Triode User

Reactcore said:


> The benefit is not having a switching ac converter in the battery pack.
> So cleanest power possible.


But one still has a switch mode power supply within the Dave and bearing in mind that when I tried an experiment to locate that in an external case it gave an improvement so my guess is that feeding external DC to the Dave is not an all healing magic bullet.



alxw0w said:


> Another question is whatever it is better to have DC battery powering stock Dave SMPS or it's better to use something like farad3/Sean Jacobs dc4 - that's something I cannot and probably nobody can answer without direct comparisons.


Agreed, only direct comparison is valid. Audio memory is too fickle. Recently I have been trying a 'stock' DC4/ARC6 powering the Dave compared to the same power supply but with something special loaned to me by SJ to try and added inside the Dave. I had to borrow a second Dave from a friend so we could compare side by side due to otherwise having a delay whilst the innards were changed. (The 'something special' made me realise that almost everything can be subtly improved, even the DC4/ARC6. Unfortunately I had to agree with SJ not to spill the beans until his embargo expires on Mon 3rd Oct so I will post a piccy then but just lets say that I bought it and will not be sending it back!).


----------



## Reactcore

Triode User said:


> But one still has a switch mode power supply within the Dave and bearing in mind that when I tried an experiment to locate that in an external case it gave an improvement



I was planning to try that too once.. place the smps outside Dave. But then with supercaps added in that separate box.

So the advantage of SMPS native RF filtering combined with low Z current reserve


----------



## stemiki

As for these latest posts on using lithium battery for DAVE, i would like to make some considerations.

It all started after reading a few months ago that the internal SMPS would accept DC current.

I therefore decided to deepen this discourse trying to understand if it was possible to make a battery with these characteristics for this purpose.

As I proceeded with the research, I realized that it was quite complex. 
I had emailed many companies specializing in the sector, but all of them gave me negative results, except one. 

Perhaps because the owner is also passionate about Hi Fi, he decided to help me in this realization.

The realization of this battery has been very accurate in the smallest details, from the junctions of the individual cells, made by computerized robots, to the BMS used inside it, certified free from generating EMI / RFI disturbances that cost more than the cells themselves, to which it is possible also connect a display to monitor the charge status with management via Bluetooth.

But there is a premise to do. Before running into this adventure, I asked an opinion from a person I trust and that if he hadn't given me a positive opinion I would have abandoned everything.

Obviously this person is Rob.

And that was the only path I would take with regards to a possible improvement of DAVE.

Because Rob many times over the past few years has always advised against the use of linear power supplies with detailed explanations as to why not to take this route.

The internal SMPS, once powered by the battery, I don't think generates major EMI / RFI disturbances.
And in any case always much less than these linear power supplies also used in external boxes.

The result with the use of headphones via the internal amplifier is spectacular.
The precision in the micro details and the complete removal of the brightness allows you to increase the volume while maintaining a full-bodied and soft sound.

Maybe Rob if he is reading these last posts can provide some technical clarification about it.


----------



## 801evan

stemiki said:


> As for these latest posts on using lithium battery for DAVE, i would like to make some considerations.
> 
> It all started after reading a few months ago that the internal SMPS would accept DC current.
> 
> ...


♥️♥️♥️♥️ As I've been saying with the internal SMPS performance and that of the.HP amp. Great success on the battery project.


----------



## Reactcore

Go check my Choral mscaler thread.
Its assembled. 😀


----------



## Ciggavelli

Reactcore said:


> Go check my Choral mscaler thread.
> Its assembled. 😀


Link?


----------



## DJJEZ

Ciggavelli said:


> Link?


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/my-choral-housed-chord-mscaler.964931/post-17167873


----------



## Somatic (Sep 28, 2022)

maxh22 said:


> I’m using a Siltech Double Crown power cable and although it’s a “clone”of the original it sounds just like how the original is described in various reviews. It adds much needed body to Dave, increased holographics, analog flow, and super accurate timbre reproduction, it just might be an end game power cable… I have no desire to purchase an aftermarket power supply like the farad or the various Sean Jacob's PSUs. In fact, I’d be willing to wager it comes dangerously close to those aftermarket power supply’s for a fraction of the price ($300). Might be the best value in high end audio especially for those who want a huge improvement in sound without spending an arm and a leg and ofcourse you are not invalidating your warranty either. Just wanted to share this for the more budget oriented Dave owners looking for a huge upgrade 😉


I respectfully doubt that. I didn’t try that exact AC cable but the upgrade I’m getting I don’t think can easily be replicated with a power cord.


----------



## LucyWu

Reactcore said:


> Its not about drawing the max current..
> but about the voltage being more steady and not fluctuating with the music output.. even a variation of micro volts can be noticable.. its a form of noise modulation.


I agree - and that voltage stability is directly a function of the output impedance of the battery. I've used batteries on and off over many years and generally been quite pleased with the results. I was just expressing the view (based on my experience and the basic engineering factors) that batteries are not an easy panacea. And you really do need to consider the voltage regulation because batteries which offer the specific voltages Dave needs are not available. And even if they were battery voltage has generally a direct correlation with charge so with start above nominal and sag over time.


----------



## Triode User

LucyWu said:


> I agree - and that voltage stability is directly a function of the output impedance of the battery. I've used batteries on and off over many years and generally been quite pleased with the results. I was just expressing the view (based on my experience and the basic engineering factors) that batteries are not an easy panacea. And you really do need to consider the voltage regulation because batteries which offer the specific voltages Dave needs are not available. And even if they were battery voltage has generally a direct correlation with charge so with start above nominal and sag over time.


These are all good points. Indeed there have been posts in other forums where batteries were used with DC4 regulators to directly power Dave but in the end they were outdone by the transformer powered ARC6 power supply. From what I have read in those posts the motive for designing the ARC6 was to achieve a better power supply for Dave than could be got with the batteries.


----------



## Powersquat

Somatic said:


> I respectfully doubt that. I didn’t try that exact AC cable but the upgrade I’m getting I don’t think can easily be replicated with a power cord.



I very much suspect you're correct, I do hope to fit an SJ power supply to my Dave at some future point, however in the meantime I picked up a used Shunyata Venom NR10 power cord, fitted with a Synergistic Research Orange fuse, for £650 it's turned out to be an eye opening experience.

I believe I'm at least experiencing a flavour of what an after market power supply brings to the Dave, dynamic improvements across the board, both depth and width of the soundstage are increased, everything is a little more holographic, but most impressive of all is the improvement in bass reproduction, timbral wise, string plucks sound more realistic, the bass also goes deeper, but in a very clear and realistic manner.

The downside to these improvements, I'm more eager than ever to see what the SJ power supply brings to the table.


----------



## stemiki

Triode User said:


> These are all good points. Indeed there have been posts in other forums where batteries were used with DC4 regulators to directly power Dave but in the end they were outdone by the transformer powered ARC6 power supply. From what I have read in those posts the motive for designing the ARC6 was to achieve a better power supply for Dave than could be got with the batteries.


I don't think a device like ARC6 can bring about an improvement via battery power.
This is because linear power supplies, especially those with large transformers, generate a lot of EMI / RFI noise caused by magnetic interference.

While the internal SMPS, which has very small transformers, powered by battery, acts only as a current regulator to create the three lines +5 +15 -15 vdC


----------



## Somatic

stemiki said:


> I don't think a device like ARC6 can bring about an improvement via battery power.
> This is because linear power supplies, especially those with large transformers, generate a lot of EMI / RFI noise caused by magnetic interference.
> 
> While the internal SMPS, which has very small transformers, powered by battery, acts only as a current regulator to create the three lines +5 +15 -15 vdC


I definitely would be interested in hearing a battery powered Dave version.


----------



## SteveHulk

LucyWu said:


> I agree - and that voltage stability is directly a function of the output impedance of the battery. I've used batteries on and off over many years and generally been quite pleased with the results. I was just expressing the view (based on my experience and the basic engineering factors) that batteries are not an easy panacea. And you really do need to consider the voltage regulation because batteries which offer the specific voltages Dave needs are not available. And even if they were battery voltage has generally a direct correlation with charge so with start above nominal and sag over time.


This is one of the reasons I use the batteries to drive inverters in my setup. The inverters are effectively voltage regulators. The various high quality lps can now focus purely on dc production with no requirement to reject rf noise in the process.


----------



## Jawed

A cable is generally going to introduce RF noise. Each box added to a system first has to defeat the RF noise its addition causes by way of cabling, before the box has any hope of being uncompromised...


----------



## Somatic

Any new Farad3 owners? How is everyone liking them?

I think you get used to it but found the uplift in performance to be significant to my ears. Noise or not, sounded better to me. Blacker backgrounds, increase in details, reverb tails, etc. Now I wonder how the Mscaler would have sounded this time with a Farad3. Either way, I'm happy with what I got. Curious if we end up getting the Choral Mscaler. Will probably buy used one day and try it out.


----------



## auricgoldfinger

In case anyone is interested...Chord DAVE with Sean Jacobs ARC6 DC4 Power Supply and DAVE Capacitor Board

This is not my ad.


----------



## Icenine2 (Sep 30, 2022)

This is a super interesting read.The search for the perfect sound from the Washington Post


----------



## Icenine2

“What can sometimes happen is that some of the joy of the music is overtaken by the joy of building a system,” Stott said. “But listening to good-quality audio is a bit like owning a Formula One team. It will cost you a million pounds to get around the track in two minutes. It will cost you 10 million pounds to get around the track in a second under two minutes.”


----------



## Ciggavelli

auricgoldfinger said:


> In case anyone is interested...Chord DAVE with Sean Jacobs ARC6 DC4 Power Supply and DAVE Capacitor Board
> 
> This is not my ad.


Interesting he’s selling it because of the Taiko Extreme dac. I didn’t even know they made dacs. If it’s a module for their server, that could be real interesting. My Antipodes K50 can’t really handle complex tasks or my extremely large library. I’ve also been interested in getting a better dac than my SJ mDAVE. The Taiko Extreme could kill 2 birds with 1 stone. I guess I have some fun reading for tonight


----------



## Sampajanna

unless this person has insider information, they are mistaken. Taiko is releasing a network card, a router and a battery to power the Extreme. I dont think a dac is on the immediate agenda, unless it is a big surprise…


----------



## jlbrach

Icenine2 said:


> This is a super interesting read.The search for the perfect sound from the Washington Post


well at least I identified the high rez version of the song immediately lol


----------



## auricgoldfinger

I think a DAC is definitely in the pipeline, but Taiko has a rather large number of projects in various stages.  I am not sure where it falls in terms of priorities.


----------



## Reactcore

Hi all, 
My final project post, installing the optical link in Mscaler and Dave  is up in my mscaler thread.
Link in my signature.


----------



## kawhia

I have a cable question. Would you recommend I connect my Auralic Aries streamer and DAVE using a Toslink cable or AES/EBU? My understanding is that using the AES the Aries would provide the clock? If I use Toslink this is not the case? 
Thanks for any advice.
BtW my Toslink cable cost 10€. The AES cable is a JPS superconductor 3


----------



## kawhia (Oct 3, 2022)

Toslink sounds better🤪🧐🤣

Edit: I can change the input between optical and AES on the fly, without the music stopping or being interrupted. I doubt that actually anything changes...
can you change inputs without any interruption?


----------



## Reactcore (Oct 3, 2022)

kawhia said:


> I have a cable question. Would you recommend I connect my Auralic Aries streamer and DAVE using a Toslink cable or AES/EBU? My understanding is that using the AES the Aries would provide the clock? If I use Toslink this is not the case?
> Thanks for any advice.
> BtW my Toslink cable cost 10€. The AES cable is a JPS superconductor 3


Dave always clocks its buffered data.
No matter the input you choose.

I would stick with toslink unless you need more than 24/192 or DSD > that needs USB


----------



## Dunraven

Hi

I am hoping somebody can help me out with a two part issue I am having a Chord Dave and M Scaler issue I am having.

I have been using a Chord Mojo with an Iphone and camera/USB connection. I have just bought a second hand Dave and M Scaler and have tried to connect the iPhone using the same method but am getting no sound just some low static noise. The phone is connected via Camera/USB to the M Scaler then Dual BNC to the Dave and then using my Moon Amp as a power amp with Dave in preamp mode. I have also tried connecting the phone direct into the Dave but same issue. 

I suspect the answer is going to be that this method isn't compatible with the Dave for whatever reason and that I will need to buy a streamer as well.

The audio shop I use has recommended an Aurender N150. However when I have looked at the reviews online it seems like it does not support Apple Hi Res Lossless. 

I use Apple Music and have an Iphone/Ipad/Imac cloud storage etc. So i would really prefer to stay with Apple Music but from my limited understanding I think my choices are:

 1. Buy a laptop or Ipad pro and connect via USB (which people are saying is not suitable for a DAC of this quality) 2. Buy the Aurender or similar and stream via Airplay (which does not support Hi Res) 3. Buy the Aurender and change to Tidal.

I am prepared to spend the money on a streamer but don't want an unworkable/inconvenient solution.

Thanks for any advice you can offer. Much appreciated.

Dunraven


----------



## ecwl

Dunraven said:


> I have been using a Chord Mojo with an Iphone and camera/USB connection. I have just bought a second hand Dave and M Scaler and have tried to connect the iPhone using the same method but am getting no sound just some low static noise. The phone is connected via Camera/USB to the M Scaler then Dual BNC to the Dave and then using my Moon Amp as a power amp with Dave in preamp mode. I have also tried connecting the phone direct into the Dave but same issue


The USB of Mojo doesn’t require power so your iPhone can power the Mojo input. The USB input of DAVE and M-Scaler requires power so your iPhone can’t power the input. 

Your cheapest solution is to buy a cheap ipad with lightning port to play Apple Lossless Music. It’ll still give you optimal sound like playing off the iPhone. You can buy an ipad with USB-C port but then you’ll need a new cable/adaptor to connect the iPad to the DAVE or M-Scaler. 

Not that many streamers support Apple Music. An iPad running off batteries would provide you with better sound anyway.


----------



## Dunraven

ecwl said:


> The USB of Mojo doesn’t require power so your iPhone can power the Mojo input. The USB input of DAVE and M-Scaler requires power so your iPhone can’t power the input.
> 
> Your cheapest solution is to buy a cheap ipad with lightning port to play Apple Lossless Music. It’ll still give you optimal sound like playing off the iPhone. You can buy an ipad with USB-C port but then you’ll need a new cable/adaptor to connect the iPad to the DAVE or M-Scaler.
> 
> Not that many streamers support Apple Music. An iPad running off batteries would provide you with better sound anyway.


Thanks for that its very helpful. I have an Ipad with lighting connection so can check that. 

Much appreciated


----------



## Reactcore (Oct 4, 2022)

@Dunraven 
@ecwl Is right.
Hms and Dave need the usb 5v bus active to power the USB driver chip.
Not all phones/pads can deliver enough current. My (very) old apple ipad2 and iphone4 work well. (30pin connector)

You could also try a external powered USB hub in between.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

I can run my mscaler with the camera connection kit off my iPhone 13 Pro just fine. Haven’t tried with the 14 pro yet, or into the Dave direct, but I would guess it’d be the same


----------



## fiiom11pro

hey guys, Can I see your Dave setup?
I wanna see how beautiful your audio rigs are...


----------



## Triode User (Oct 4, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> Interesting he’s selling it because of the Taiko Extreme dac. I didn’t even know they made dacs. If it’s a module for their server, that could be real interesting. My Antipodes K50 can’t really handle complex tasks or my extremely large library. *I’ve also been interested in getting a better dac than my SJ mDAVE.* The Taiko Extreme could kill 2 birds with 1 stone. I guess I have some fun reading for tonight





Triode User said:


> Recently I have been trying a 'stock' DC4/ARC6 powering the Dave compared to the same power supply but with something special loaned to me by SJ to try and added inside the Dave. I had to borrow a second Dave from a friend so we could compare side by side due to otherwise having a delay whilst the innards were changed. (The 'something special' made me realise that almost everything can be subtly improved, even the DC4/ARC6. Unfortunately I had to agree with SJ not to spill the beans until his embargo expires on Mon 3rd Oct so I will post a piccy then but just lets say that I bought it and will not be sending it back!).


I preface my post with a disclaimer. I am merely a retail customer of Sean‘s but @Ciggavelli to my mind the cheapest way to get a better DAC than your current DC4 Dave might be to do what I now have inside the Dave which is the new just released Dave Cap Board from Sean Jacobs. In my system it has made a significant upgrade to sound quality and more importantly it has increased the shear listening pleasure. The idea for SJ to try a cap board with the Dave was first suggested to him by @marcmccalmont of this parish and what a good idea it has turned out to be.

I first bought the SJ DC3 for the Dave and then his DC4 and finally the ARC6 so as a long term customer SJ asked if I would like to listen to the final options on his short list for the make of capacitors he was going to use. The surprise to me was how much of a sound difference there was between these different manufacturers caps. The AudioNote Kaisei ones he finally selected were the clear winners to my ears and also to Sean's ears. Sean told me that his board was originally intended to mitigate the effect of different lengths of umbilical cable but I only have short (14 inch) umbilicals and yet the the whole character of the sound has got better with the new Dave Cap Board so it might be worth you looking at this route.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Triode User said:


> I preface my post with a disclaimer. I am merely a retail customer of Sean‘s but @Ciggavelli to my mind the cheapest way to get a better DAC than your current DC4 Dave might be to do what I now have inside the Dave which is the new just released Dave Cap Board from Sean Jacobs. In my system it has made a significant upgrade to sound quality and more importantly it has increased the shear listening pleasure. The idea for SJ to try a cap board with the Dave was first suggested to him by @marcmccalmont of this parish and what a good idea it has turned out to be.
> 
> I first bought the SJ DC3 for the Dave and then his DC4 and finally the ARC6 so as a long term customer SJ asked if I would like to listen to the final options on his short list for the make of capacitors he was going to use. The surprise to me was how much of a sound difference there was between these different manufacturers caps. The AudioNote Kaisei ones he finally selected were the clear winners to my ears and also to Sean's ears. Sean told me that his board was originally intended to mitigate the effect of different lengths of umbilical cable but I only have short (14 inch) umbilicals and yet the the whole character of the sound has got better with the new Dave Cap Board so it might be worth you looking at this route.


Oh nice!  I didn't even know about that.  I'll message him and check it out.  Thanks


----------



## Triode User

Ciggavelli said:


> Oh nice!  I didn't even know about that.  I'll message him and check it out.  Thanks


It is new and SJ has just released it after many months of development. 👍


----------



## Ciggavelli

Triode User said:


> It is new and SJ has just released it after many months of development. 👍


I just emailed Vassil, so I await his response


----------



## STR-1

Triode User said:


> yet the the whole character of the sound has got better with the new Dave Cap Board


Interesting to hear. In what way has the character of the DAVE changed with this new board?

After three frustrating months waiting for a call to send my Innuos Statement back for an ARC6 power supply upgrade, and still waiting, I might get back to Sean and press ahead with an upgrade to my DAVE DC4.


----------



## Reactcore

Triode User said:


> I preface my post with a disclaimer. I am merely a retail customer of Sean‘s but @Ciggavelli to my mind the cheapest way to get a better DAC than your current DC4 Dave might be to do what I now have inside the Dave which is the new just released Dave Cap Board from Sean Jacobs. In my system it has made a significant upgrade to sound quality and more importantly it has increased the shear listening pleasure. The idea for SJ to try a cap board with the Dave was first suggested to him by @marcmccalmont of this parish and what a good idea it has turned out to be.
> 
> I first bought the SJ DC3 for the Dave and then his DC4 and finally the ARC6 so as a long term customer SJ asked if I would like to listen to the final options on his short list for the make of capacitors he was going to use. The surprise to me was how much of a sound difference there was between these different manufacturers caps. The AudioNote Kaisei ones he finally selected were the clear winners to my ears and also to Sean's ears. Sean told me that his board was originally intended to mitigate the effect of different lengths of umbilical cable but I only have short (14 inch) umbilicals and yet the the whole character of the sound has got better with the new Dave Cap Board so it might be worth you looking at this route.



That looks neat!

But capping after Dave's LM307/317 regulators would matter more i think.. theres even a 1.5 ohm resistor in series with the lm's output ..so much for low ESR..


----------



## Reactcore

I earlier was about to install my supercaps straight on the OP transistors.. but hesitated cause daves original smps cant precharge them..

So i waited



Just fits..


----------



## Jon L

Triode User said:


>



Is it just me wondering the same thing at this point?  You guys may as well just design a completely new DAC from ground up using these principles and hire Robb Watts as the digital consultant


----------



## SteveHulk

Jon L said:


> Is it just me wondering the same thing at this point?  You guys may as well just design a completely new DAC from ground up using these principles and hire Robb Watts as the digital consultant


If I can get @Reactcore to build me one of his lovely choral-housed m scalers, I'll post a new picture 😀


----------



## SteveHulk

Jon L said:


> Is it just me wondering the same thing at this point?  You guys may as well just design a completely new DAC from ground up using these principles and hire Robb Watts as the digital consultant


Seriously though, it is a testimony to the excellent fundamentals of the DAVE digital design that it can be tweaked so hard and respond with good sq improvements.

There is plenty of headroom there.


----------



## Reactcore

SteveHulk said:


> If I can get @Reactcore to build me one of his lovely choral-housed m scalers, I'll post a new picture 😀


I must be careful not to end up as a 'Member of the trade: Reactcore housings' with limitations to what i may say on threads 😆


----------



## muski (Oct 5, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> I must be careful not to end up as a 'Member of the trade: Reactcore housings' with limitations to what i may say on threads 😆


Perhaps set yourself up as a not-for-profit?😉

(In all seriousness, your project is masterful and delightful!)


----------



## Reactcore (Oct 5, 2022)

muski said:


> Perhaps set yourself up as a not-for-profit?😉
> 
> (In all seriousness, your project is masterful and delightful!)



Thanks all for your kind comments 😊
My best award is superb fluent sound
I get imersed deep in my music without dis(tor)traction and my eyes gets happy too

I will make and post a schematic of the optic link for others to create one too


----------



## paulrbarnard

Icenine2 said:


> This is a super interesting read.The search for the perfect sound from the Washington Post


a very surprisingly large difference between the files.


----------



## Reactcore

Reactcore said:


> I will make and post a schematic of the optic link for others to create one too



Its posted in my mscaler thread.


----------



## marcmccalmont

STR-1 said:


> Interesting to hear. In what way has the character of the DAVE changed with this new board?
> 
> After three frustrating months waiting for a call to send my Innuos Statement back for an ARC6 power supply upgrade, and still waiting, I might get back to Sean and press ahead with an upgrade to my DAVE DC4.


Sweeter, more delicate, more detail, more dynamic , more listenable. One might say very analog sounding similar to a very highend turntable/cartridge


----------



## Triode User

marcmccalmont said:


> Sweeter, more delicate, more detail, more dynamic , more listenable. One might say very analog sounding similar to a very highend turntable/cartridge


 Couldn’t have put it better. That is exactly what I hear.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Triode User said:


> Couldn’t have put it better. That is exactly what I hear.


Me too, I really just enjoy my music now.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Triode User said:


> Couldn’t have put it better. That is exactly what I hear.


I can't wait to hear the new board.  I emailed Vassil and his first batch was sold out.  I'm on the list for the new batch whenever that may come.  Also, for those interested, it costs $500


----------



## motu81

How do you order the board, from Sean directly?


----------



## Ciggavelli

motu81 said:


> How do you order the board, from Sean directly?


Yeah, just email them


----------



## BallisticGT3

GuiltyRocker said:


> Me too, I really just enjoy my music now.





Triode User said:


> I preface my post with a disclaimer. I am merely a retail customer of Sean‘s but @Ciggavelli to my mind the cheapest way to get a better DAC than your current DC4 Dave might be to do what I now have inside the Dave which is the new just released Dave Cap Board from Sean Jacobs. In my system it has made a significant upgrade to sound quality and more importantly it has increased the shear listening pleasure. The idea for SJ to try a cap board with the Dave was first suggested to him by @marcmccalmont of this parish and what a good idea it has turned out to be.
> 
> I first bought the SJ DC3 for the Dave and then his DC4 and finally the ARC6 so as a long term customer SJ asked if I would like to listen to the final options on his short list for the make of capacitors he was going to use. The surprise to me was how much of a sound difference there was between these different manufacturers caps. The AudioNote Kaisei ones he finally selected were the clear winners to my ears and also to Sean's ears. Sean told me that his board was originally intended to mitigate the effect of different lengths of umbilical cable but I only have short (14 inch) umbilicals and yet the the whole character of the sound has got better with the new Dave Cap Board so it might be worth you looking at this route.





Triode User said:


> Couldn’t have put it better. That is exactly what I hear.



Is this new capacitor board designed to be used in conjunction with a DC4/ARC6?


----------



## STR-1

Triode User said:


> Couldn’t have put it better. That is exactly what I hear.


Is the board easy to insert or does it require soldering?


----------



## Triode User

STR-1 said:


> Is the board easy to insert or does it require soldering?


It is a user installable item with no soldering. The same Molex 4 pin plug on the board connects to the DC4 or ARC6 umbilical. The board is fixed within the Dave using the same screw holes where the smps was previously removed.


----------



## Powersquat

Triode User said:


> It is a user installable item with no soldering. The same Molex 4 pin plug on the board connects to the DC4 or ARC6 umbilical. The board is fixed within the Dave using the same screw holes where the smps was previously removed.



 As a visually impaired technophobe, if i understand you properly, the new board sits where the old sMPS was located and is connected to the Umbilical cable with a Molex connector, is that correct?. 

Trying to visualise this in my head, I'm assuming that the new board has a second connector to attach it to the Molex where Dave's original SMPS was plugged, hence the new board fits between the ARC6 Umbilical and the original connection point utilising 2 Molex connectors?.


----------



## marcmccalmont

Powersquat said:


> As a visually impaired technophobe, if i understand you properly, the new board sits where the old sMPS was located and is connected to the Umbilical cable with a Molex connector, is that correct?.
> 
> Trying to visualise this in my head, I'm assuming that the new board has a second connector to attach it to the Molex where Dave's original SMPS was plugged, hence the new board fits between the ARC6 Umbilical and the original connection point utilising 2 Molex connectors?.


Correct


----------



## marcmccalmont (Oct 9, 2022)

Triode User said:


> It is a user installable item with no soldering. The same Molex 4 pin plug on the board connects to the DC4 or ARC6 umbilical. The board is fixed within the Dave using the same screw holes where the smps was previously removed.


Perhaps Sean or Vassil would supply disassembly diagrams. The most difficult part is disassembling Dave if you haven’t done that recently. 4 screws on the top don’t need removal, the way the lower circular piece is sandwiched between the “portal” and main chassis  is a bit of a puzzle and getting your fingers in to remove the larger ribbon connector is a bit of finger yoga. But if you installed a DC4 cable installation of the cap board is straight forward.


----------



## Kirklandia

My wife installed the board. I did the heavy lifting of the Dave lid to make sure there was no scratching.


----------



## Powersquat

marcmccalmont said:


> Correct



Thank's.


----------



## miketlse

Kirklandia said:


> My wife installed the board. I did the heavy lifting of the Dave lid to make sure there was no scratching.


No-one should hint that your wife is a technophobe.


----------



## alxw0w

Anyone remember what is output voltage of Dave with XLR in DAC mode? 5v?


----------



## ecwl

alxw0w said:


> Anyone remember what is output voltage of Dave with XLR in DAC mode? 5v?


6V


----------



## ecwl

alxw0w said:


> Anyone remember what is output voltage of Dave with XLR in DAC mode? 5v?


Except I just remembered, you use M-Scaler. So that’ll lower the dB for -2.7. So DAC mode actually would never reach 6V on XLR. It’ll actually be about 4.4V


----------



## crazyhank

Hi all, I'm about 3 years into my audophile journey, and I have the Focal Utopia (2020/2022), LCD-5, Stellias. I love these headphones, and I feed them using my Chord Hugo 2 and Astell Kern SP2000. These are the best and favorite sources for me so far. I know that Dave and Dave w/ Mscaler is very highly regarded. So...I went to audition them. The Dave I know is the mega DAC that beats Hugo 2 in all respects, but sadly I couldn't hear it. I prefer the sound of Hugo 2. It's brighter and has more sparkle and clarity to me. I know the Dave and Mscaler are supposed to be the best of the best. So what am I missing? Am I not listening for the right things? Using top tier cables for all the connections, etc... Appreciate any advice. I would hate to miss out on the Dave just because I'm a newbie. When I first started my audio journey...I prefer Chord Mojo and Focal Arche. As time passed...I fell in love with Hugo 2 and Astell Kern Sp2000 that have more detail. thank you everyone! Welcome all advice and commentary


----------



## marcmccalmont

STR-1 said:


> Is the board easy to insert or does it require soldering?





crazyhank said:


> Hi all, I'm about 3 years into my audophile journey, and I have the Focal Utopia (2020/2022), LCD-5, Stellias. I love these headphones, and I feed them using my Chord Hugo 2 and Astell Kern SP2000. These are the best and favorite sources for me so far. I know that Dave and Dave w/ Mscaler is very highly regarded. So...I went to audition them. The Dave I know is the mega DAC that beats Hugo 2 in all respects, but sadly I couldn't hear it. I prefer the sound of Hugo 2. It's brighter and has more sparkle and clarity to me. I know the Dave and Mscaler are supposed to be the best of the best. So what am I missing? Am I not listening for the right things? Using top tier cables for all the connections, etc... Appreciate any advice. I would hate to miss out on the Dave just because I'm a newbie. When I first started my audio journey...I prefer Chord Mojo and Focal Arche. As time passed...I fell in love with Hugo 2 and Astell Kern Sp2000 that have more detail. thank you everyone! Welcome all advice and commentary


Where did you audition Dave? At a dealer? Was it broken in? Single ended output? Power chord with ferrites? Dave is quirky for it to sound great it needs to be optimized, dealers don’t do this.


----------



## iDesign

crazyhank said:


> Hi all, I'm about 3 years into my audophile journey, and I have the Focal Utopia (2020/2022), LCD-5, Stellias. I love these headphones, and I feed them using my Chord Hugo 2 and Astell Kern SP2000. These are the best and favorite sources for me so far. I know that Dave and Dave w/ Mscaler is very highly regarded. So...I went to audition them. The Dave I know is the mega DAC that beats Hugo 2 in all respects, but sadly I couldn't hear it. I prefer the sound of Hugo 2. It's brighter and has more sparkle and clarity to me. I know the Dave and Mscaler are supposed to be the best of the best. So what am I missing? Am I not listening for the right things? Using top tier cables for all the connections, etc... Appreciate any advice. I would hate to miss out on the Dave just because I'm a newbie. When I first started my audio journey...I prefer Chord Mojo and Focal Arche. As time passed...I fell in love with Hugo 2 and Astell Kern Sp2000 that have more detail. thank you everyone! Welcome all advice and commentary


Thats the importance of listening before making a purchase. You saved thousands on something you learned you don’t need.


----------



## crazyhank

iDesign said:


> Thats the importance of listening before making a purchase. You saved thousands on something you learned you don’t need.


Thanks I know  but Dave is unanimously loved and respected. What am I missing? Could you share you perspective how to compares to Hugo 2?


----------



## crazyhank

marcmccalmont said:


> Where did you audition Dave? At a dealer? Was it broken in? Single ended output? Power chord with ferrites? Dave is quirky for it to sound great it needs to be optimized, dealers don’t do this.


Standard power cable with USB Audioquest Diamond. Same that feeds the Hugo 2… 

How would you compare Dave to Hugo 2? Trying to  better understand


----------



## musicinmymind

crazyhank said:


> Hi all, I'm about 3 years into my audophile journey, and I have the Focal Utopia (2020/2022), LCD-5, Stellias. I love these headphones, and I feed them using my Chord Hugo 2 and Astell Kern SP2000. These are the best and favorite sources for me so far. I know that Dave and Dave w/ Mscaler is very highly regarded. So...I went to audition them. The Dave I know is the mega DAC that beats Hugo 2 in all respects, but sadly I couldn't hear it. I prefer the sound of Hugo 2. It's brighter and has more sparkle and clarity to me. I know the Dave and Mscaler are supposed to be the best of the best. So what am I missing? Am I not listening for the right things? Using top tier cables for all the connections, etc... Appreciate any advice. I would hate to miss out on the Dave just because I'm a newbie. When I first started my audio journey...I prefer Chord Mojo and Focal Arche. As time passed...I fell in love with Hugo 2 and Astell Kern Sp2000 that have more detail. thank you everyone! Welcome all advice and commentary



Both of your soruces or portable, it sometime plays big role. if that is your preference then you are already good with what you have.


----------



## crazyhank

Yes feeding from iPhone and blusound streamer over coax.

I guess it would help how you guys differentiate the Hugo 2. To the Dave

Thank yoi!


----------



## Interceptor

crazyhank said:


> Thanks I know  but Dave is unanimously loved and respected. What am I missing? Could you share you perspective how to compares to Hugo 2?


The Dave isn't unanimously loved; people are spending thousands to optimise it as per this thread - also the headphone matching will be different with Dave to the H2. 

I suggest you try other DACs e.g. TT2 with/without MScaler, or an R2R DAC with a headphone capability / amp.  

I also preferred my Hugo2 over my Dave for headphone use, and have sold the Dave to go TT2 (and Auralic Aries G2.1 upscaling) in my main system. The filters in TT2 and H2 are similar in purpose, and TT2 is a great headphone amp. I already had owned the TT2 before Dave and I always kept the H2 for desk use with iMac source & Audirvana.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

crazyhank said:


> Thanks I know  but Dave is unanimously loved and respected. What am I missing? Could you share you perspective how to compares to Hugo 2?



Nothing is wrong with personal taste. I also like TT2 more than Dave, but for the opposite reason of yours. TT2 is warmer and smoother than Dave in character. 

How about just add amp to your Hugo 2?


----------



## AndrewOld

Interceptor said:


> The Dave isn't unanimously loved; people are spending thousands to optimise it as per this thread - also the headphone matching will be different with Dave to the H2.


Absolutely. Much of the “love” for the DAVE comes from people spending thousands on replacing its power supply and replacing its upsampling with PGGB or other solutions. Check this thread out for many such examples. You have to ask what is actually left of the the DAVE.  I still love mine, and my M Scaler, but I have lost a lot of faith in the brand, and more than a little trust.


----------



## crazyhank

TheMiddleSky said:


> Nothing is wrong with personal taste. I also like TT2 more than Dave, but for the opposite reason of yours. TT2 is warmer and smoother than Dave in character.
> 
> How about just add amp to your Hugo 2?


I was thinking the same, thank you! But I want more detail and what I don’t get is why I feel Hugo 2 has more than Dave and tt2. Makes me think I’m missing something…


----------



## Frankie D

marcmccalmont said:


> Where did you audition Dave? At a dealer? Was it broken in? Single ended output? Power chord with ferrites? Dave is quirky for it to sound great it needs to be optimized, dealers don’t do this.


If the Dave cannot sound better than the Hugo 2  without optimization move on.  Given its price difference one should not have to do anything to hear it sound better than the Hugo 2.  Consider it saved $.


----------



## jlbrach (Oct 11, 2022)

I have both the hugo 2 for travel and the dave for home...the dave is better in absolutely every way...not even close and I love my hugo 2


----------



## auricgoldfinger

@crazyhank  Your source is probably a limiting factor in your chain which is preventing you from hearing the full capabilities of the Dave.


----------



## number1sixerfan

crazyhank said:


> Hi all, I'm about 3 years into my audophile journey, and I have the Focal Utopia (2020/2022), LCD-5, Stellias. I love these headphones, and I feed them using my Chord Hugo 2 and Astell Kern SP2000. These are the best and favorite sources for me so far. I know that Dave and Dave w/ Mscaler is very highly regarded. So...I went to audition them. The Dave I know is the mega DAC that beats Hugo 2 in all respects, but sadly I couldn't hear it. I prefer the sound of Hugo 2. It's brighter and has more sparkle and clarity to me. I know the Dave and Mscaler are supposed to be the best of the best. So what am I missing? Am I not listening for the right things? Using top tier cables for all the connections, etc... Appreciate any advice. I would hate to miss out on the Dave just because I'm a newbie. When I first started my audio journey...I prefer Chord Mojo and Focal Arche. As time passed...I fell in love with Hugo 2 and Astell Kern Sp2000 that have more detail. thank you everyone! Welcome all advice and commentary



If still really curious, I would just try to get a home audition if you can from the dealer. If not, I would probably move on. It sounds like either you need more time for a proper assessment, or you simply prefer the brighter signature of the Hugo 2. The Dave is a bit more neutral, but still both really detail oriented. I use them both daily, but in different applications. There is a pretty large leap between the two right out of the box with no special settings or optimization, but the Hugo 2 is still really good (better if paired with warmer gear imo). I wouldn't buy one in hopes of spending thousands more to optimize it, it is great enough out of the box and if isn't then don't buy it.. that would be my advice. 



AndrewOld said:


> Absolutely. Much of the “love” for the DAVE comes from people spending thousands on replacing its power supply and replacing its upsampling with PGGB or other solutions. Check this thread out for many such examples. You have to ask what is actually left of the the DAVE.  I still love mine, and my M Scaler, but I have lost a lot of faith in the brand, and more than a little trust.



I get having this perspective, but there are plenty people that enjoy the Dave that haven't done any tinkering (there just isn't much to post about in this thread if you don't). I think it's pretty clear that the Dave could have a better power supply, as can some other DACs. But I can't knock the Chord brand because head-fiers are never content lol. That's just a part of the hobby. A lot of people simply like tinkering and chasing endless upgrades/nirvana.. I can't hold that against the brand and more than anything I can attest that really high quality sound is achieved simply with a stock level Dave.

As much equipment as I've bought I simply haven't at all be tempted to replace the mDave stock. There are a few other DACs I could see myself really enjoying, and perhaps a few even more than Dave. With all of that said, if I wanted to upgrade today, I'd look to find another DAC more optimized out of the box and with slightly better timbre/tonality rather than the countless upgrades/side-grades mentioned in this thread (this is excluding the reasonably priced Farad LPS _for me_). But from what I've seen, the people that have moved from Dave looking for similar qualities have had to spend quite a bit more to get there. Almost makes it a moot point, but again I rather not go the endless tinkering route..


----------



## Somatic

Seeing if anyone has the Dave paired with a PrimaLuna Evo 400 Preamp + solid state amp such as AHB2? If so, wondering how the synergy is? I assume it would be a great combo but thought I would ask. Thanks.


----------



## Reactcore

crazyhank said:


> I was thinking the same, thank you! But I want more detail and what I don’t get is why I feel Hugo 2 has more than Dave and tt2. Makes me think I’m missing something…


You could also add a Mscaler to H2 and have H2's brighter signature with better transient detail response. H2's 3.5mm jack accepts dual data. 

You have the benefit of no groundloop using headphones.


----------



## JamieMcC

AndrewOld said:


> Absolutely. Much of the “love” for the DAVE comes from people spending thousands on replacing its power supply and replacing its upsampling with PGGB or other solutions. Check this thread out for many such examples. You have to ask what is actually left of the the DAVE.  I still love mine, and my M Scaler, but I have lost a lot of faith in the brand, and more than a little trust.



Those spending thousands on upgrading their Dave's  are probably representative of  something like less than 0.5% of Dave owners.


----------



## jcn3

Somatic said:


> Seeing if anyone has the Dave paired with a PrimaLuna Evo 400 Preamp + solid state amp such as AHB2? If so, wondering how the synergy is? I assume it would be a great combo but thought I would ask. Thanks.



i'm always been tempted by the evo 400 pre -- it's getting pretty expensive though!  i'd certainly try the dave directly into the ahb2 first.  i'm loving the dave directly into my jc-5.


----------



## SteveHulk (Oct 12, 2022)

JamieMcC said:


> Those spending thousands on upgrading their Dave's  are probably representative of  something like less than 0.5% of Dave owners.


We mustn't lose sight of the fact that the DAVE was brought out at a price point of £7.5k or so with the attendant design constraints imposed by that choice. 

The tweakers, myself included, are exploring what the DAVE might have been like if that price point had been £20k or whatever.

I'm glad that the DAVE wasn't brought out at that price point. Finding £20k+ in one go is a lot harder than £8k and I might never have had a chance of owning one at all.

In terms of losing faith in the brand just take a breath and remember that the DAVE is still in Stereophile's list of top DACs even after all this time.

Think of all the other devices that have been brought out since the DAVE that are now not even footnotes to history.


----------



## jlbrach

SteveHulk said:


> We mustn't lose sight of the fact that the DAVE was brought out at a price point of £7.5k or so with the attendant design constraints imposed by that choice.
> 
> The tweakers, myself included, are exploring what the DAVE might have been like if that price point had been £20k or whatever.
> 
> ...


in the usa the dave was about 12-13k initially


----------



## auricgoldfinger

jlbrach said:


> in the usa the dave was about 12-13k initially



Back then, GBP/USD was significantly higher than it is now.


----------



## jlbrach

auricgoldfinger said:


> Back then, GBP/USD was significantly higher than it is now.


correct


----------



## kawhia

SteveHulk said:


> In terms of losing faith in the brand just take a breath and remember that the DAVE is still in Stereophile's list of top DACs even after all this time.
> 
> Think of all the other devices that have been brought out since the DAVE that are now not even footnotes to history.


Well said. And DAVE is not just a footnote, it is an entire chapter in the book History of DACs


----------



## bluecar

crazyhank said:


> Hi all, I'm about 3 years into my audophile journey, and I have the Focal Utopia (2020/2022), LCD-5, Stellias. I love these headphones, and I feed them using my Chord Hugo 2 and Astell Kern SP2000. These are the best and favorite sources for me so far. I know that Dave and Dave w/ Mscaler is very highly regarded. So...I went to audition them. The Dave I know is the mega DAC that beats Hugo 2 in all respects, but sadly I couldn't hear it. I prefer the sound of Hugo 2. It's brighter and has more sparkle and clarity to me. I know the Dave and Mscaler are supposed to be the best of the best. So what am I missing? Am I not listening for the right things? Using top tier cables for all the connections, etc... Appreciate any advice. I would hate to miss out on the Dave just because I'm a newbie. When I first started my audio journey...I prefer Chord Mojo and Focal Arche. As time passed...I fell in love with Hugo 2 and Astell Kern Sp2000 that have more detail. thank you everyone! Welcome all advice and commentary


Not crazy at all!! Ihad the same issue with the DAVE with my Utopia's - it's an amazing DAC, but the headphone amp didn't play well with some headphones. for me, the Utopia was one of these. It always felt a little undergunned - tons of detail but no dynamic 'fizz'........ The Utopia faithfully pumps out whatever's pumped in, so if the sound is 'reference', it will sound 'reference', which is not always that satisfying, regardless of the 'correctness' of the sound. Although the Utopia is a sensitive set, easy to drive, it also loves high transient capability in the Amp. 

For me, the real joy of the DAVE was hooking it up to a high-end headamp to power the Utopia - I tried the Arche (ok), the Benchmark HPA4 (wow!) and the Nimbus US 5 pro (Squeeeeeeeeeee!) - the sound with the US5 is astonishing. 

I may get some hate for this, but I'm just going to say it - the amp in the DAVE is very, very good, but it is modest in output - in almost every case, I was happy to trade off a little loss of resolution by hooking up to another amp, and getting the benefit of much more transient power and a balanced connection for the headphones.

Try the DAVE and the Hugo 2 through the same external headphone amp - the DAVE will blow you away...


----------



## crazyhank

bluecar said:


> Not crazy at all!! Ihad the same issue with the DAVE with my Utopia's - it's an amazing DAC, but the headphone amp didn't play well with some headphones. for me, the Utopia was one of these. It always felt a little undergunned - tons of detail but no dynamic 'fizz'........ The Utopia faithfully pumps out whatever's pumped in, so if the sound is 'reference', it will sound 'reference', which is not always that satisfying, regardless of the 'correctness' of the sound. Although the Utopia is a sensitive set, easy to drive, it also loves high transient capability in the Amp.
> 
> For me, the real joy of the DAVE was hooking it up to a high-end headamp to power the Utopia - I tried the Arche (ok), the Benchmark HPA4 (wow!) and the Nimbus US 5 pro (Squeeeeeeeeeee!) - the sound with the US5 is astonishing.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much bluecar, and everyone for your advice!! Really appreciate it!!


----------



## Reactcore

bluecar said:


> Try the DAVE and the Hugo 2 through the same external headphone amp - the DAVE will blow you away...



Try also Dave's headphone out to your Amp with a Jack to RCA cable. I know it sounds weird..

You actually bypass one internal relay then in Dave making your signal path shorter. 
Dave's RCA signal runs via the HP relay first.


----------



## jlbrach

I have pwned the dave for several years now and quite honestly see no reason to change DAC's...even after the years I have heard nothing better..different yes but not better especially with the blu2...It is pretty remarkable that the Dave is good enough to stand the test of time IMHO and the fact that people seem to like to attack it tells me they know how good it is


----------



## Slim1970

jlbrach said:


> I have pwned the dave for several years now and quite honestly see no reason to change DAC's...even after the years I have heard nothing better..different yes but not better especially with the blu2...It is pretty remarkable that the Dave is good enough to stand the test of time IMHO and the fact that people seem to like to attack it tells me they know how good it is


Well said, the DAVE is still the best DAC I’ve heard and have owned. It fits my sonic preferences very well.


----------



## Somatic

David is muy bueno …


----------



## sm60

jlbrach said:


> I have pwned the dave for several years now and quite honestly see no reason to change DAC's...even after the years I have heard nothing better..different yes but not better especially with the blu2...It is pretty remarkable that the Dave is good enough to stand the test of time IMHO and the fact that people seem to like to attack it tells me they know how good it is


Since I got my Lampi Pacific, my Blu2/Dave  hardly get any use. 😀 I can’t bring myself to sell them yet, so they sit in a corner. The Dave is a good DAC, but depending on your budget and sonic preferences, there are better DACs. 

The Pacific gets you into a different sonic class (for a price), and the Lampi Horizon is another step beyond (but now we’re getting into silly money territory). The Dave design is a bit dated now, with no provisioning for streaming, and a clunky 4 port BNC interface that seems a bit antique now, although it’s still a fine sounding DAC. I dare say Chord will upgrade it at some point. 

I’ve rearchitected my system around the Lampi Pacific based on direct heated triodes. A longtime Quad stat lover, my primary speakers are now a pair of refrigerator sized Klipsch La Scalas. I wanted to get something with the low distortion of my Quads, but far higher SPL capacity with just a handful of watts. The La Scalas produce 105 dB at 1 watt with < 0.1% distortion. The Quads can only manage that at far lower SPLs. 

 I use Cary 300B SET mono block amps which (gulp) produce 6-8 watts. Even that’s overkill for the La Scalas. Tomorrow I’m expecting to receive Triode Lab mono block amps that uses the 45 DHT to produce 2 watts per channel. All I should ever need. It’s a different sonic world for this grizzled audiophile. With a very high quality tubed DAC and SET amplifiers, the La Scalas have all the warmth of the Quads and their low distortion, but at very much higher SPLs.


----------



## Jawed

DAVE direct into your La Scala speakers (from the RCA sockets), with no power amp should work too...


----------



## GuiltyRocker

sm60 said:


> Since I got my Lampi Pacific, my Blu2/Dave  hardly get any use. 😀 I can’t bring myself to sell them yet, so they sit in a corner. The Dave is a good DAC, but depending on your budget and sonic preferences, there are better DACs.
> 
> The Pacific gets you into a different sonic class (for a price), and the Lampi Horizon is another step beyond (but now we’re getting into silly money territory). The Dave design is a bit dated now, with no provisioning for streaming, and a clunky 4 port BNC interface that seems a bit antique now, although it’s still a fine sounding DAC. I dare say Chord will upgrade it at some point.
> 
> ...


All taste, for example i don't like Klipsch speakers at all, I have heard many DACs and the DAVE smoked them all, the only one that was able to compete was the MSB DAC and that was $45k.


----------



## SteveHulk

Jawed said:


> DAVE direct into your La Scala speakers (from the RCA sockets), with no power amp should work too...


This kind of suggestion recurs in these forums.

It is not just a question of power, but also of impedance matching. 

A DAC expects a load impedance in the order of 10kΩ or more which is typically provided by the input of a preamp or a power amp which is usually the next thing in the chain.

Speakers have impedances which are typically less than 10Ω.

To the DAVE, such a speaker will look like a dead short on its output.

Any device shorted in this way could easily smoke and would at least distort horribly.

This is not a good idea.


----------



## alxw0w (Oct 14, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> This kind of suggestion recurs in these forums.
> 
> It is not just a question of power, but also of impedance matching.
> 
> ...


Not really. As it's output is not like regular dac. It has low impedance and output stage is actually like a small amplifier @Rob Watts was saying that you can indeed drive speakers directly with Dave.
Dave output is capable of driving low impedance loads. (Talking about se not XLR)
I tried it couple of times and never had any problems and my speakers are pretty tough load (6ohm nominal 4ohm minimal 86db)

Edit
The only 'problem' could be down to two things very tough loads, so speakers going in impedance to 2ohms and second is power limitation. 2W @8ohms. But with very efficient speakers like la scala or omega speakers or some horns that are above 100db it could be enough for even 'loud' listening.


----------



## Jawed

SteveHulk said:


> This kind of suggestion recurs in these forums.
> 
> It is not just a question of power, but also of impedance matching.
> 
> ...


I ran a pair of floorstanding speakers direct off DAVE for a few months. I've posted about it, years ago...

2W from DAVE into the La Scala speakers will be very very loud.


----------



## adrianm

Well sadly the day has come, my Dave is up for sale in the classifieds if anyone is interested:

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/chord-dave-mint-black-2-years-old.34553/


----------



## zen87192

Sorry to see you leaving the DAVE owners club. Wishing you all the best with your next DAC acquisition.  🎧


----------



## SteveHulk

alxw0w said:


> Not really. As it's output is not like regular dac. It has low impedance and output stage is actually like a small amplifier @Rob Watts was saying that you can indeed drive speakers directly with Dave.
> Dave output is capable of driving low impedance loads. (Talking about se not XLR)
> I tried it couple of times and never had any problems and my speakers are pretty tough load (6ohm nominal 4ohm minimal 86db)
> 
> ...


In the case of DAVE I stand corrected.

DAVE is clearly unusually robust in this regard, another testament to the quality of the device.

However, many lesser devices would turn their toes up if subjected to this treatment so I still urge caution.


----------



## Reactcore

zen87192 said:


> Sorry to see you leaving the DAVE owners club. Wishing you all the best with your next DAC acquisition.  🎧


Im by far not ready to sell my Dave .. i just started discovering unheard details in my music collection again..

But i wish him all the best on his journey 🧭


----------



## adrianm

Reactcore said:


> Im by far not ready to sell my Dave .. i just started discovering unheard details in my music collection again..
> 
> But i wish him all the best on his journey 🧭


Thanks, after auditioning Dave vs a Linn Klimax Organik earlier i'm having second thoughts about selling it lol.


----------



## Reactcore

adrianm said:


> Thanks, after auditioning Dave vs a Linn Klimax Organik earlier i'm having second thoughts about selling it lol.


Hm in which favor is that? 🧐😄

Nice setup place!


----------



## kawhia

adrianm said:


> Thanks, after auditioning Dave vs a Linn Klimax Organik earlier i'm having second thoughts about selling it lol.


I thought you bought Lina?


----------



## adrianm

kawhia said:


> I thought you bought Lina?


Not yet, still a bit on the fence and wanted to audition the Linn as well. While I think the Lina +clock combo is a step up from the best i've heard out of Dave, the Linn wasn't. That said ,Dave was fed by the Linn itself, which is one of the better sounding streamers i've heard with Dave.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

adrianm said:


> Thanks, after auditioning Dave vs a Linn Klimax Organik earlier i'm having second thoughts about selling it lol.


are those your speakers?  Those are my speakers and by far my favorite speakers out now.


----------



## adrianm

GuiltyRocker said:


> are those your speakers?  Those are my speakers and by far my favorite speakers out now.


No, that was at the shop. I also had my Oor and Elites with me, but I A/B'd them on speakers as well as headphones.


----------



## adrianm

GuiltyRocker said:


> are those your speakers?  Those are my speakers and by far my favorite speakers out now.


Wow I did not expect them to cost as much. To be honest, the room was really small , and probably not ideal (though seemed heavily treated), but I got more fine detail out of my headphone setup.


----------



## seaice

My Dave has returned from the famous firmware update, and I can finally use my Opto DX with it. It is singing as never before, but that was expected and many times described here. I have been comparing Dave with TT2 (both fully M-Scaled) for two days, and I am pretty surprised at how much better Dave is in my headphone setup (with external head-amps). Speaker setup will come next.

I am just experiencing some odd behavior of the Dave display: It is always ON, which is strange. Before the update, the display went off after a while. I usually let my Dave on 24/7, so I am a bit worried. Should I be scared that the display may burn out partially (some pixels) or completely when left on 24/7?


----------



## Reactcore

seaice said:


> My Dave has returned from the famous firmware update, and I can finally use my Opto DX with it. It is singing as never before, but that was expected and many times described here. I have been comparing Dave with TT2 (both fully M-Scaled) for two days, and I am pretty surprised at how much better Dave is in my headphone setup (with external head-amps). Speaker setup will come next.
> 
> I am just experiencing some odd behavior of the Dave display: It is always ON, which is strange. Before the update, the display went off after a while. I usually let my Dave on 24/7, so I am a bit worried. Should I be scared that the display may burn out partially (some pixels) or completely when left on 24/7?


Firmware update?

Opto dx didnt work how?
My optic solution with mscaler is working flawlessly on my 3y/o unit.

Your display is probably not set to mode 4.
Only visable without hp plugged in.


----------



## seaice (Oct 16, 2022)

My older Dave did not work correctly with Opto DX (dropouts); all new ones should be OK. The "firmware update" was the only solution in my case.

No, my display is not set to mode 4. I will try it. Thanks!


----------



## adrianm

seaice said:


> My older Dave did not work correctly with Opto DX (dropouts); all new ones should be OK. The "firmware update" was the only solution in my case.


The newer Daves don't have this problem, confirmed by Audiowise. I think if your Dave has the etchings on the BNC slots, you should be fine.


----------



## seaice

Reactcore said:


> Firmware update?
> 
> Opto dx didnt work how?
> My optic solution with mscaler is working flawlessly on my 3y/o unit.
> ...


Yes, mode 4 solved it, thanks!

Firmware update - I had dropouts with Opto DX before the update, now it is OK after the update.


----------



## Reactcore

seaice said:


> My older Dave did not work correctly with Opto DX (dropouts); all new ones should be OK. The "firmware update" was the only solution in my case.
> 
> No, my display is not set to mode 4. I will try it. Thanks!



Interesting.. i had to adjust my self made link carefully to get it synchronised on both 705.6k and 768k

If i set eg 705.6k in middle of the margin.. then 768k gives dropouts and via versa. 
But both overlap so i found the middle of both settings. 

Did you noticed before that only 705.6k or 768k had problems or was it both?

May i know what is your serial nr first 2 digits?


----------



## seaice

Reactcore said:


> Interesting.. i had to adjust my self made link carefully to get it synchronised on both 705.6k and 768k
> 
> If i set eg 705.6k in middle of the margin.. then 768k gives dropouts and via versa.
> But both overlap so i found the middle of both settings.
> ...



I had problems with both, 705.6k and 768k. I tried everything, incl. fine-tuning the Opto DX, which reduced the frequency of dropouts but did not solve them all. The update solved it completely; the sound is flawless now. 

Serial nr first 2 digits: 33...


----------



## Reactcore

seaice said:


> I had problems with both, 705.6k and 768k. I tried everything, incl. fine-tuning the Opto DX, which reduced the frequency of dropouts but did not solve them all. The update solved it completely; the sound is flawless now.
> 
> Serial nr first 2 digits: 33...


Hm my snr starts with 30.. so a opto dx shouldnt work too.

Oh well i have no issues with my link.
See my signature if you havent seen.


----------



## seaice (Oct 16, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> Hm my snr starts with 30.. so a opto dx shouldnt work too.
> 
> Oh well i have no issues with my link.
> See my signature if you havent seen.


It worked, but I had some dropouts ca every two minutes at best, which was quite annoying, and this was the best result I achieved before the firmware update. Except for fine-tuning the Opto-DX, I tried probably everything back then - swapped BNC cables, tried different Dave inputs, tried different power adapters, and went the ferrite way...

I know the links in your signature, I already checked them a couple of times. Impressive stuff! Unfortunately, I do not have many technical skills, so I do not DIY myself, but it is nice to see the progress.


----------



## muski (Oct 17, 2022)

I added the new Sonore opticalModule Deluxe to my listening chain today (converts ethernet to optical for my opticalRendu). I'm shocked by how much noise it removed—on the order of adding a PhoenixUSB in terms of listening improvement. Given it replaced a $20 TP-Link FMC, I shouldn't be that surprised, but again it shows the music-destroying pervasiveness of RF noise in listening chains.

http://www.sonore.us/opticalModule-Deluxe.html

(No connection to Sonore, just a fan)

cheers,
muski


----------



## George Hincapie

muski said:


> I added the new Sonore opticalModule Deluxe to my listening chain today (converts ethernet to optical for my opticalRendu). I'm shocked by how much noise it removed—on the order of adding a PhoenixUSB in terms of listening improvement. Given it replaced a $20 TP-Link FMC, I shouldn't be that surprised, but again it shows the music-destroying pervasiveness of RF noise in listening chains.
> 
> http://www.sonore.us/opticalModule-Deluxe.html
> 
> ...



It's expensive for what it is. What's the rest of your chain?


----------



## adrianm

Price drop  

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/chord-dave-mint-black-2-years-old-3-years-warranty-left.34553/


----------



## muski

George Hincapie said:


> It's expensive for what it is. What's the rest of your chain?


SonicTransporter i9->PhoenixNet->opticalModuleDeluxe->Singlemode Fiber->opticalRendu->PhoenixUSB->SRC-DX->mScaler->opto-DX->Chord DAVE->Focal Utopia. Mostly Sablon cables, lots of Vibrapods and various power upgrades (likely that a DC4/ARC6 is next).

It is expensive for a fiber media converter, and yet on a (admittedly subjective) assessment of improvement/$, it was a pretty decent ROI.


----------



## Ciggavelli

So, I just installed the new DAVE Cap board.  I think it was worth the $500 I spent.  I can't really do an A/B comparison, but I like what I'm hearing.  I feel that the noise floor is even lower.  Things might sound even more "analog" as well (meaning less digital glare).  To be honest I'm not sure how anything could sound better than what I'm hearing now.  Like in my mind I don't know what I would do to improve the sound.  Is there a better sound though?  That is the question


----------



## Icenine2

Ciggavelli said:


> So, I just installed the new DAVE Cap board.  I think it was worth the $500 I spent.  I can't really do an A/B comparison, but I like what I'm hearing.  I feel that the noise floor is even lower.  Things might sound even more "analog" as well (meaning less digital glare).  To be honest I'm not sure how anything could sound better than what I'm hearing now.  Like in my mind I don't know what I would do to improve the sound.  Is there a better sound though?  That is the question


Excellent! Show us a picture of this!!


----------



## Ciggavelli

Icenine2 said:


> Excellent! Show us a picture of this!!


It looks exactly the same as a pic posted a few pages back.  It's an easy install.  You just plop it in, screw it to the case (they did not provide screws though...so make sure you have some available), and then screw back on the top.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Ciggavelli said:


> So, I just installed the new DAVE Cap board.  I think it was worth the $500 I spent.  I can't really do an A/B comparison, but I like what I'm hearing.  I feel that the noise floor is even lower.  Things might sound even more "analog" as well (meaning less digital glare).  To be honest I'm not sure how anything could sound better than what I'm hearing now.  Like in my mind I don't know what I would do to improve the sound.  Is there a better sound though?  That is the question



Just enjoy it then


----------



## Ciggavelli

AnalogEuphoria said:


> Just enjoy it then


That’s easier said than done though. You spend years upgrading, getting better and better sound quality with new gear. It’s addictive, then you reach a certain level and it’s harder to get that same feeling.  Plus, just because I can’t comprehend what “better” would be, doesn’t mean there isn’t a “better” out there. It’s just those potentially better sounding dacs cost $30K plus, and I’m like am I really going to spend that much on a dac for headphones?  I mean my upgraded mDAVE costs $30K, but I spread those costs over time, so it didn’t seem as bad.  I should be happy with what I have. I am actually, but I guess part of me is always going to wonder what’s next; what could I do to make it sound even better?


----------



## Reactcore

Ciggavelli said:


> That’s easier said than done though. You spend years upgrading


This upgraderitus is a nasty thing.. it stands in our way to fully enjoy our music, cause it always starts itching again.


----------



## SteveHulk (Oct 20, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> This upgraderitus is a nasty thing..


Spoken by the very Archbishop of the Church of Extreme Tweakers and Upgraders himself! 😀


----------



## Reactcore

SteveHulk said:


> Spoken by the very Archbishop of the Church of Extreme Tweakers and Upgraders himself! 😀


Yeah when my Dave was on the operating table i couldnt listen to it😆
Next is my server's turn


----------



## adrianm

Another price drop 

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/chord-dave-mint-black-2-years-old-3-years-warranty-left.34553/


----------



## GuiltyRocker

It is amazing how much tweaking people are doing with the DAVE, it is awesome.  I have to say I am very impressed with the people here and their quest to make music sound better.  I wonder how the tweaked DAVEs will fare against the Ultima DAC Rob is working on.


----------



## Reactcore

GuiltyRocker said:


> It is amazing how much tweaking people are doing with the DAVE, it is awesome.  I have to say I am very impressed with the people here and their quest to make music sound better.  I wonder how the tweaked DAVEs will fare against the Ultima DAC Rob is working on.


That will be priced out of my reach..
My kidneys arent worth that much

So ill try to make the best of what i have😉


----------



## zen87192

My guess is that the new Super Duper Chord Choral DAC will be between £12,000 and £14,000 GBP.


----------



## Reactcore (Oct 20, 2022)

zen87192 said:


> new Super Duper Chord Choral DAC


My guess is Chord will announce another level/style aside Choral..

Specially now Choral has been copied
(oops 😳😁)


----------



## sm60

Jawed said:


> DAVE direct into your La Scala speakers (from the RCA sockets), with no power amp should work too...


Ugh, no thanks. I find the sound of the Dave a bit too clinical to use with typical solid state gear with even warm sounding speakers, such as my Harbeth Monitor 40.1s or Quad 2905s.

 I use the Dave now with a pair of Quad 2905s in my dining room where the Dave feeds into a 20 watt JJ 322 300B push pull amplifier. That injects a bit of warmth into the Dave’s sound and makes it more tolerable. But the La Scalas sound gorgeous with the Lampi Pacific. 

With my La Scalas, I use a 2 watt Triode Lab mono block, which uses a single 45 direct heated triode per channel (see pic). That’s the beauty of the Klipsch fully loaded horn design. You don’t need much power at all. It’s a question of system matching. You have to find the right blend to make a system work. Of course, it’s subjective. Some people love the sound of the Dave with Chord amplifiers into bright sounding speakers with metallic tweeters (e.g., B&W). That would have me running screaming from the room with my ears closed. 😀


----------



## adrianm

zen87192 said:


> My guess is that the new Super Duper Chord Choral DAC will be between £12,000 and £14,000 GBP.


The new dac will be Ultima, no Choral was announced afaik


----------



## sm60

adrianm said:


> The new dac will be Ultima, no Choral was announced afaik


Hope it performs better than the Dave, which got (rightly) slammed on audioscience.com for a disappointing set of measurements. 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-dave-review-dac-hp-amp.35974/

The reviewer said there are $150 DACs that measure better than the Dave. He took particular issue with Dave’s headphone driving abilities, calling it shrill and congested at higher volumes. This largely confirms my own listening (I hugely prefer Sony’s TA-Z1HES over the Dave for driving my Sennheiser 800S). 

Reactions? 😀


----------



## adrianm

sm60 said:


> Hope it performs better than the Dave, which got (rightly) slammed on audioscience.com for a disappointing set of measurements.
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-dave-review-dac-hp-amp.35974/
> 
> ...


Well I generally don't like to waste my breath on ASR, but they did have some valid points about Dave and the M-scaler. As manipulative and out of context as they were. One thing to remember is that it came out..7 years ago?
   I've actually returned my TA-ZH1ES upon hearing Dave, but the amp section was clearly better. I've been using it with the Ferrum Oor lately and it makes a huge difference. As does clean power.
   That said, I'm changing my entire setup as soon as I find a lucky buyer for Dave


----------



## adrianm

If not for the "forum wisdom", I might have moved on to a separate headphone amp sooner.


----------



## Ciggavelli

sm60 said:


> Hope it performs better than the Dave, which got (rightly) slammed on audioscience.com for a disappointing set of measurements.
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-dave-review-dac-hp-amp.35974/
> 
> ...


It's been discussed in depth.  It actually clogged up head-fi for a week or two, as that's all everybody was talking about.  I'd rather not ruin Head-fi again with further discussion on that


----------



## GuiltyRocker

sm60 said:


> Hope it performs better than the Dave, which got (rightly) slammed on audioscience.com for a disappointing set of measurements.
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-dave-review-dac-hp-amp.35974/
> 
> ...


You mean the site that grades equipment based on 1khz SINAD by a "retired" engineer and gets Chi-Fi products sent to him directly by the Chi-Fi companies, and Chord products sent to him directly by users?  Do yourself a favor and check out Golden Sound's video on how these numbers can be cooked, funny how this cult leader on ASR never shows his full console and spits out these numbers.  Sorry buddy, but I don't take that cult site seriously.


----------



## SteveHulk

GuiltyRocker said:


> You mean the site that grades equipment based on 1khz SINAD by a "retired" engineer and gets Chi-Fi products sent to him directly by the Chi-Fi companies, and Chord products sent to him directly by users?  Do yourself a favor and check out Golden Sound's video on how these numbers can be cooked, funny how this cult leader on ASR never shows his full console and spits out these numbers.  Sorry buddy, but I don't take that cult site seriously.


I know you mean well, but please please let's not go there yet again 😞


----------



## Spawn300Z

I was wondering does the Dave allow you to choose either to use the XLR or RCA outputs or are the both always active like in the TT2? I don’t have the Dave so I wasn’t sure.  I have been thinking on upgrading my DAC. Would like to use one output for my Riviera AIC-10 and the other for an amp to my speakers without having to turn the amp on and off from the back all the time. I thought about a switch but that then triples the interconnect cost.


----------



## MvRBE10

Both are always active i even use two pins of the xlr output so its identical to the rca output. They have the same type of opamp the xlr only has one extra for the negative signal that i dont use. Works superb.

Mid/high on two amps and my woofers on two amps.

As an addition i even pass through the xlr signal in my woofer amp and that goes straight into my perlisten subwoofer. Signal strenght is identical.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

SteveHulk said:


> I know you mean well, but please please let's not go there yet again 😞


I didn't bring up the topic, sorry but I'm not staying quiet when this nonsense keeps coming up, a $150 DAC is better?  Ridiculous.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Spawn300Z said:


> I was wondering does the Dave allow you to choose either to use the XLR or RCA outputs or are the both always active like in the TT2? I don’t have the Dave so I wasn’t sure.  I have been thinking on upgrading my DAC. Would like to use one output for my Riviera AIC-10 and the other for an amp to my speakers without having to turn the amp on and off from the back all the time. I thought about a switch but that then triples the interconnect cost.


I use XLR to my wa33 and rca to my 3ES. I even tried using my 3ES a preamp to my WA33 and it worked completely fine. It’s a great feature of the DAVE. I always want dacs and preamps to have more output options. They all seem to max out at one XLR and one rca. But what if I want to use speakers, a headphone amp and another electrostatic headphone amp?  Why don’t manufacturers have 3 or more outputs on dacs and preamps?


----------



## tomwoo

GuiltyRocker said:


> I didn't bring up the topic, sorry but I'm not staying quiet when this nonsense keeps coming up, a $150 DAC is better?  Ridiculous.


That's why I've never visited ASR and r/headphones again (maybe just a couple of times to the latter  )


----------



## Spawn300Z

Ciggavelli said:


> I use XLR to my wa33 and rca to my 3ES. I even tried using my 3ES a preamp to my WA33 and it worked completely fine. It’s a great feature of the DAVE. I always want dacs and preamps to have more output options. They all seem to max out at one XLR and one rca. But what if I want to use speakers, a headphone amp and another electrostatic headphone amp?  Why don’t manufacturers have 3 or more outputs on dacs and preamps?


Yes but both those options have separate on/off switch up front. I want to use a dual mono amp for speakers and the Riviera for headphone setup. So not sure if it will work for me.


----------



## AnalogEuphoria

Reactcore said:


> This upgraderitus is a nasty thing.. it stands in our way to fully enjoy our music, cause it always starts itching again.



This is why there aren't any audio companies selling antihistamines, they want you to scratch that itch as much as you want.


----------



## sm60

tomwoo said:


> That's why I've never visited ASR and r/headphones again (maybe just a couple of times to the latter  )


I figured you guys would be offended by that hard hitting review of the Dave, but nothing he said surprised me. He mentioned serious RF noise issues in the Dave. I’ve posted here multiple times on that issue. I had no end of trouble getting my Blu2 to work with my Dave. Finally, I sent both in to Chord service, as fortunately  they were within the warranty period. They replaced a board on the Blu2 and did some upgrades. Now I can say the Blu2 transport works flawlessly, which it never did before. The Dave is prone to RF noise by its very design. Using a 4 prong BNC cable hookup from the Blu2 to the Dave is a really old fashioned way to transfer high density data. It’s really antiquated. What’s even worse is no provisioning for clock synchronization. No streaming ability. No networking ability. No software upgradability.  All this shows me the design needs to be rethought from the ground up. The Dave, I’m sorry to say, is obsolete. The world has moved on to much better and far more capable DACs, both measurably and audibly. The Mola Mola Tambiqui both measures better than the Dave by a country mile, and according to some of the best ears in the business, sounds amazing as well (I haven’t heard it). Personally I like the Lampizator Pacific a lot more. But that’s because I like its tube sound (treat that as a coloration, if you like). I’m hanging on to my Blu2/Dave still, and using it in a second system. It’s a fine combo, but it’s not state of the art.

ASR measures every DAC rigorously, and you can quibble with their conclusions, but nothing they reported is different from what John Atkinson of Stereophile found when he measured the performance of Dave. He liked its sound, but he said it was not state of the art at that time, which was several years ago. It’s nit as highly resolving as my Lampi Pacific, which runs rings around it. But the Pacific is in a different price class and uses price no object parts. As many have pointed out on this forum, the Dave uses a $15 power supply that is used in medical power supplies. It’s overpriced for the parts quality inside. The Pacific is filled with premium parts. The Dave is not. I still like the Dave’s form factor. It’s small and light and can be thrown in anywhere. My Lampi is huge by comparison. But would I buy the Dave again. Not a chance. Chord has some serious catching up to do with the state of the art.


----------



## Ciggavelli

sm60 said:


> I figured you guys would be offended by that hard hitting review of the Dave, but nothing he said surprised me. He mentioned serious RF noise issues in the Dave. I’ve posted here multiple times on that issue. I had no end of trouble getting my Blu2 to work with my Dave. Finally, I sent both in to Chord service, as fortunately  they were within the warranty period. They replaced a board on the Blu2 and did some upgrades. Now I can say the Blu2 transport works flawlessly, which it never did before. The Dave is prone to RF noise by its very design. Using a 4 prong BNC cable hookup from the Blu2 to the Dave is a really old fashioned way to transfer high density data. It’s really antiquated. What’s even worse is no provisioning for clock synchronization. No streaming ability. No networking ability. No software upgradability.  All this shows me the design needs to be rethought from the ground up. The Dave, I’m sorry to say, is obsolete. The world has moved on to much better and far more capable DACs, both measurably and audibly. The Mola Mola Tambiqui both measures better than the Dave by a country mile, and according to some of the best ears in the business, sounds amazing as well (I haven’t heard it). Personally I like the Lampizator Pacific a lot more. But that’s because I like its tube sound (treat that as a coloration, if you like). I’m hanging on to my Blu2/Dave still, and using it in a second system. It’s a fine combo, but it’s not state of the art.
> 
> ASR measures every DAC rigorously, and you can quibble with their conclusions, but nothing they reported is different from what John Atkinson of Stereophile found when he measured the performance of Dave. He liked its sound, but he said it was not state of the art at that time, which was several years ago. It’s nit as highly resolving as my Lampi Pacific, which runs rings around it. But the Pacific is in a different price class and uses price no object parts. As many have pointed out on this forum, the Dave uses a $15 power supply that is used in medical power supplies. It’s overpriced for the parts quality inside. The Pacific is filled with premium parts. The Dave is not. I still like the Dave’s form factor. It’s small and light and can be thrown in anywhere. My Lampi is huge by comparison. But would I buy the Dave again. Not a chance. Chord has some serious catching up to do with the state of the art.


I agree with a lot of this.  I've upgraded the power supply in my mDAVE and it does sound a lot better.  The lack of user firmware updates, no streamer, and the cheap smps psu are definitely downsides.  The DAVE is old, but it still sounds good.  But, ff I was to buy a new dac today, it wouldn't be a DAVE.  It definitely needs to be updated.  What I would get instead is an interesting question.  I'm not sure.  I wish I could demo.


----------



## Reactcore (Oct 21, 2022)

sm60 said:


> I figured you guys would be offended by that hard hitting review of the Dave, but nothing he said surprised me. He mentioned serious RF noise issues in the Dave. I’ve posted here multiple times on that issue. I had no end of trouble getting my Blu2 to work with my Dave. Finally, I sent both in to Chord service, as fortunately  they were within the warranty period. They replaced a board on the Blu2 and did some upgrades. Now I can say the Blu2 transport works flawlessly, which it never did before. The Dave is prone to RF noise by its very design. Using a 4 prong BNC cable hookup from the Blu2 to the Dave is a really old fashioned way to transfer high density data. It’s really antiquated. What’s even worse is no provisioning for clock synchronization. No streaming ability. No networking ability. No software upgradability.  All this shows me the design needs to be rethought from the ground up. The Dave, I’m sorry to say, is obsolete. The world has moved on to much better and far more capable DACs, both measurably and audibly. The Mola Mola Tambiqui both measures better than the Dave by a country mile, and according to some of the best ears in the business, sounds amazing as well (I haven’t heard it). Personally I like the Lampizator Pacific a lot more. But that’s because I like its tube sound (treat that as a coloration, if you like). I’m hanging on to my Blu2/Dave still, and using it in a second system. It’s a fine combo, but it’s not state of the art.
> 
> ASR measures every DAC rigorously, and you can quibble with their conclusions, but nothing they reported is different from what John Atkinson of Stereophile found when he measured the performance of Dave. He liked its sound, but he said it was not state of the art at that time, which was several years ago. It’s nit as highly resolving as my Lampi Pacific, which runs rings around it. But the Pacific is in a different price class and uses price no object parts. As many have pointed out on this forum, the Dave uses a $15 power supply that is used in medical power supplies. It’s overpriced for the parts quality inside. The Pacific is filled with premium parts. The Dave is not. I still like the Dave’s form factor. It’s small and light and can be thrown in anywhere. My Lampi is huge by comparison. But would I buy the Dave again. Not a chance. Chord has some serious catching up to do with the state of the art.


Nomatter howmuch you point to this..
Im oldschool and i like my setup. I dont give anything for inbuild streamers fancy high resolution displays or tube goodness. If i want that i add it seperately.

I havent found a fimware update necessary since it has few features to update (like streamer operation) Its like whats not in there cant influence the sound.

This thing was thoroughly tested before its release.
Unlike many China products that need to compete to be the first with latest gadgets and prematurely being released then needing to adress faults with a update tool.

I waited patiently for a 2nd hand to come up and adressed the RF issue in my own way.

It left me with RW's transient and small signal accuracy approach that im fond of In a for me nice looking package.


----------



## adrianm

sm60 said:


> The Dave, I’m sorry to say, is obsolete. The world has moved on to much better and far more capable DACs, both measurably and audibly. The Mola Mola Tambiqui both measures better than the Dave by a country mile, and according to some of the best ears in the business, sounds amazing as well (I haven’t heard it). Personally I like the Lampizator Pacific a lot more. But that’s because I like its tube sound (treat that as a coloration, if you like). I’m hanging on to my Blu2/Dave still, and using it in a second system. It’s a fine combo, but it’s not state of the art.
> 
> ASR measures every DAC rigorously, and you can quibble with their conclusions, but nothing they reported is different from what John Atkinson of Stereophile found when he measured the performance of Dave. He liked its sound, but he said it was not state of the art at that time, which was several years ago. It’s nit as highly resolving as my Lampi Pacific, which runs rings around it. But the Pacific is in a different price class and uses price no object parts. As many have pointed out on this forum, the Dave uses a $15 power supply that is used in medical power supplies. It’s overpriced for the parts quality inside. The Pacific is filled with premium parts. The Dave is not. I still like the Dave’s form factor. It’s small and light and can be thrown in anywhere. My Lampi is huge by comparison. But would I buy the Dave again. Not a chance. Chord has some serious catching up to do with the state of the art.


That's a bit harsh. While I agree with a lot of your points, and Dave might not be the best around at any price point (pretty sure it never was outside of this forum), I haven't heard a *better and cheaper* dac, and  it does have some unique characteristics that are unsurpassed at any price point. Namely the transient response and overall speed.
   I get why people value Dave over anything for some types of music, it is addicting.
      As for the Tambaqui, a lot of people prefer Dave over it, but the streaming convenience is nice and definitely a priority for me.
      As far as  Lampi's... I know someone who is buying in the money no object category, with a lot more experience than me, and he told me he'd take a Matrix X-Sabre over anything they make. So while it might be premium in construction, and overengineered, I doubt there's anything measurably state of the art about it. What he felt was much better than Vivaldi and MSB stacks, I didn't like as much as Dave.
    People have their own preferences. Chord stubbornly refuse to stick to separates (and the problems they come with), and that's fine, but that's not the path for me anymore.


----------



## adrianm

As you can see, Dave is still getting rave reviews :
https://soundnews.net/sources/dacs/digital-to-analog-veritas-in-extremis-chord-dave-dac-review/


----------



## GuiltyRocker

sm60 said:


> I figured you guys would be offended by that hard hitting review of the Dave, but nothing he said surprised me. He mentioned serious RF noise issues in the Dave. I’ve posted here multiple times on that issue. I had no end of trouble getting my Blu2 to work with my Dave. Finally, I sent both in to Chord service, as fortunately  they were within the warranty period. They replaced a board on the Blu2 and did some upgrades. Now I can say the Blu2 transport works flawlessly, which it never did before. The Dave is prone to RF noise by its very design. Using a 4 prong BNC cable hookup from the Blu2 to the Dave is a really old fashioned way to transfer high density data. It’s really antiquated. What’s even worse is no provisioning for clock synchronization. No streaming ability. No networking ability. No software upgradability.  All this shows me the design needs to be rethought from the ground up. The Dave, I’m sorry to say, is obsolete. The world has moved on to much better and far more capable DACs, both measurably and audibly. The Mola Mola Tambiqui both measures better than the Dave by a country mile, and according to some of the best ears in the business, sounds amazing as well (I haven’t heard it). Personally I like the Lampizator Pacific a lot more. But that’s because I like its tube sound (treat that as a coloration, if you like). I’m hanging on to my Blu2/Dave still, and using it in a second system. It’s a fine combo, but it’s not state of the art.
> 
> ASR measures every DAC rigorously, and you can quibble with their conclusions, but nothing they reported is different from what John Atkinson of Stereophile found when he measured the performance of Dave. He liked its sound, but he said it was not state of the art at that time, which was several years ago. It’s nit as highly resolving as my Lampi Pacific, which runs rings around it. But the Pacific is in a different price class and uses price no object parts. As many have pointed out on this forum, the Dave uses a $15 power supply that is used in medical power supplies. It’s overpriced for the parts quality inside. The Pacific is filled with premium parts. The Dave is not. I still like the Dave’s form factor. It’s small and light and can be thrown in anywhere. My Lampi is huge by comparison. But would I buy the Dave again. Not a chance. Chord has some serious catching up to do with the state of the art.


You have your preferences as do others, I love the way DAVE is and I'm interested In a finished product that doesn't need firmware updates and is not trying to be a Me too product, I love that Chord is different and to me other DACs just don't cut it, I love that speed and snap that Chord has, to me and in MY system it makes the music sound realistic.  As far as streamers and all that jazz, I don't really care, I can always get, or upgrade streamers separately.


----------



## seaice (Oct 21, 2022)

When I was waiting for my Dave that was getting the firmware update in September, I was using my Hugo 2 instead in my main setup, and it could not match my Dave at all. Do not take me wrong, I love Hugo 2 and use it often as my mobile/traveling setup. Hugo 2 is great, but I was really missing Dave. Also, I was short of one DAC in one of my rooms and a bit curious about all the ASR talk and measurement/SINAD results. I am a rational person and had the typical doubts: What if it is all true? And what if I sell my Dave and buy one of these cheap DACs, that should be better than Dave? So I bought one of the ASR-recommended TOP DACs (400-500 USD category with 121 ASR SINAD results). And I am very happy that I did it and tested the DAC in my main setup against Hugo 2! Because I no longer have any doubts about my choices, I solved this "puzzle" for myself. Even Hugo 2 was much better to my ears, so I am definitely keeping all of my Chord DACs (H2, TT2, and the still best of them to my ears (as a DAC) - Dave).


----------



## GuiltyRocker

seaice said:


> When I was waiting for my Dave that was getting the firmware update in September, I was using my Hugo 2 instead in my main setup, and it could not match my Dave at all. Do not take me wrong, I love Hugo 2 and use it often as my mobile/traveling setup. Hugo 2 is great, but I was really missing Dave. Also, I was short of one DAC in one of my rooms and a bit curious about all the ASR talk and measurement/SINAD results. I am a rational person and had the typical doubts: What if it is all true? And what if I sell my Dave and buy one of these cheap DACs, that should be better than Dave? So I bought one of the ASR-recommended TOP DACs (400-500 USD category with 121 ASR SINAD results). And I am very happy that I did it and tested the DAC in my main setup against Hugo 2! Because I no longer have any doubts about my choices, I solved this "puzzle" for myself. Even Hugo 2 was much better to my ears, so I am definitely keeping all of my Chord DACs (H2, TT2, and the still best of them to my ears (as a DAC) - Dave).


This is fantastic, glad that you listened to the cheaper DAC and heard the difference of using a long interpolation filter with Sinc Function over X leading to excellent time domain resolution.  I still have my Oppo, which is based on Sabre 32 bit reference DAC of a few years ago, it got amazing reviews and it was hailed as an audiophile player and DAC, after listening to Chord i can no longer listen to it, it's harsh and gives me ear fatigue and forget the timbre, pitch, bass definition and sound stage.  Those cheaper DACs just can't hack it for me.


----------



## seaice (Oct 21, 2022)

GuiltyRocker said:


> This is fantastic, glad that you listened to the cheaper DAC and heard the difference of using a long interpolation filter with Sinc Function over X leading to excellent time domain resolution.  I still have my Oppo, which is based on Sabre 32 bit reference DAC of a few years ago, it got amazing reviews and it was hailed as an audiophile player and DAC, after listening to Chord i can no longer listen to it, it's harsh and gives me ear fatigue and forget the timbre, pitch, bass definition and sound stage.  Those cheaper DACs just can't hack it for me.


Exactly, I got the fatigue quite quickly, the sound stage was not great; some voices were unnaturally suppressed compared to Chord DACs, and nothing sounded so real that I am used to... I tried multiple sources, and it was always the same. Obviously, the ASR SINAD does not tell everything; for me, the non-Chord DAC just did not make it so right when listening to real sound and music in my setups. I actually tried many DACs in the past, and Dave has given me the best of everything (I would use the "end-dame" cliche, but it really is for me). TT2 and Hugo 2 are also very good. I am not even sure why I tried the other DAC, but I will stick with my Chords. Thanks to the experience, I know exactly why. It was very reassuring, and I know that I have already got the DACs I need, regardless of all the ado here and there.


----------



## Reactcore

adrianm said:


> but that's not the path for me anymore.


Why you want to part with it actually.. you found something better?


----------



## adrianm

Reactcore said:


> Why you want to part with it actually.. you found something better?


I think so, but others might disagree. At least in a headphone system, I find the Lina + Clock combo better. It also has the added benefit of being a tidier solution, with the obvious downside being the cost.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

adrianm said:


> I think so, but others might disagree. At least in a headphone system, I find the Lina + Clock combo better. It also has the added benefit of being a tidier solution, with the obvious downside being the cost.


I hear great things about the Lina, and dCS has an amazing reputation for a reason, i say go for it and enjoy.


----------



## Reactcore

adrianm said:


> I think so, but others might disagree. At least in a headphone system, I find the Lina + Clock combo better. It also has the added benefit of being a tidier solution, with the obvious downside being the cost.


Have you explored all optimisations with Dave like a added HMS but with RF removed?
I noticed a big difference after that.

I will want to hear a Lina one day if i can


----------



## adrianm

Reactcore said:


> Have you explored all optimisations with Dave like a added HMS but with RF removed?
> I noticed a big difference after that.
> 
> I will want to hear a Lina one day if i can


Yes, HMS, power stuff, src-dx, hqp, u name it


----------



## Jawed

adrianm said:


> Yes, HMS, power stuff, src-dx, hqp, u name it


I suppose the Ultima DAC wouldn't be any neater than the system you're selling...


----------



## adrianm

Jawed said:


> I suppose the Ultima DAC wouldn't be any neater than the system you're selling...


I'm pretty sure we were beta testers for the Ultima dac all these years. It's enough to implement some of the tinkering we did to Dave here to get a solid upgrade for a Dave 2, if not Ultima.


----------



## tomwoo

seaice said:


> Exactly, I got the fatigue quite quickly, the sound stage was not great; some voices were unnaturally suppressed compared to Chord DACs, and nothing sounded so real that I am used to... I tried multiple sources, and it was always the same. Obviously, the ASR SINAD does not tell everything; for me, the non-Chord DAC just did not make it so right when listening to real sound and music in my setups. I actually tried many DACs in the past, and Dave has given me the best of everything (I would use the "end-dame" cliche, but it really is for me). TT2 and Hugo 2 are also very good. I am not even sure why I tried the other DAC, but I will stick with my Chords. Thanks to the experience, I know exactly why. It was very reassuring, and I know that I have already got the DACs I need, regardless of all the ado here and there.


I agree. We just begin to understand how the brain perceives sound. Not everything is measurable.


----------



## Amberlamps

I was thinking about joining the dave club, trade up from my tt2, but I took a schiit when I saw the prices for a new dave is 10 grand uk, w.t.f, when did they go up in price from £8500 to £9995 ?


----------



## MvRBE10

Amberlamps said:


> I was thinking about joining the dave club, trade up from my tt2, but I took a schiit when I saw the prices for a new dave is 10 grand uk, w.t.f, when did they go up in price from £8500 to £9995 ?


There is one for sale now for around 7k? In here


----------



## adrianm

Amberlamps said:


> I was thinking about joining the dave club, trade up from my tt2, but I took a schiit when I saw the prices for a new dave is 10 grand uk, w.t.f, when did they go up in price from £8500 to £9995 ?


Luckily my Dave, like new is up for sale  Covid, Inflation, etc.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

tomwoo said:


> I agree. We just begin to understand how the brain perceives sound. Not everything is measurable.


Kudos to you for understanding that not everything is measurable.


----------



## kawhia

adrianm said:


> I think so, but others might disagree. At least in a headphone system, I find the Lina + Clock combo better. It also has the added benefit of being a tidier solution, with the obvious downside being the cost.


Not sure if this has been posted but there is a reviewcomparing Dave and Lina by musicalhead. It is in German, but I guess you all know how to use translation websites. 
In short: Lina and Dave are overall on par and have both small advantages over the other. Both are great. But including the clock the reviewer thinks Lina is the best hp system available atm. However, he also thinks the amp is not great for Susvara, and prefers Riviera. 
https://musicalhead.de/2022/08/19/test-dcs-lina/


----------



## kawhia

PS: Lina Dac integrates a streamer and thus has more value than Dave. But it is also more expensive. And, as dCS is smart with marketing, you will certainly want to buy the clock as well, and thus shell out another 10000€. Then you look at 24k and would have to compare it to a highly altered Dave.


----------



## adrianm

kawhia said:


> Not sure if this has been posted but there is a reviewcomparing Dave and Lina by musicalhead. It is in German, but I guess you all know how to use translation websites.
> In short: Lina and Dave are overall on par and have both small advantages over the other. Both are great. But including the clock the reviewer thinks Lina is the best hp system available atm. However, he also thinks the amp is not great for Susvara, and prefers Riviera.
> https://musicalhead.de/2022/08/19/test-dcs-lina/


I also did my own review on this thread  Even the Ferrum Oor is better than the amp. I agree with his findings in general, except I think the amp is much worse than he let on.


----------



## adrianm

kawhia said:


> PS: Lina Dac integrates a streamer and thus has more value than Dave. But it is also more expensive. And, as dCS is smart with marketing, you will certainly want to buy the clock as well, and thus shell out another 10000€. Then you look at 24k and would have to compare it to a highly altered Dave.


Yeah, they're downright evil. The clock makes such a difference, I'm sure their dacs are limited without it by design.


----------



## kawhia

adrianm said:


> they're downright evil


I once was thinking about a Bartok. I spent some time reading on the dCS community website and almost everyone said that after a while they sold it and bought a Rossini or Vivaldi. I didn’t want to end up like that 😆😂


----------



## adrianm

kawhia said:


> I once was thinking about a Bartok. I spent some time reading on the dCS community website and almost everyone said that after a while they sold it and bought a Rossini or Vivaldi. I didn’t want to end up like that 😆😂


I know, I've been through that same phase. I'm honestly tired of the rat race of improvements though. Those also don't have the Expanse, which is one of the main features I'm interested it, plus they're too big for my desk. So I should be safe.
     Not to mention software updates trickle down. Hopefully for the Lina as well. Anyone who thinks a Vivaldi sounds better than a Rossini because of anything other than them limiting their dacs by design is probably kidding themselves.


----------



## tomwoo

kawhia said:


> I once was thinking about a Bartok. I spent some time reading on the dCS community website and almost everyone said that after a while they sold it and bought a Rossini or Vivaldi. I didn’t want to end up like that 😆😂


That's by design too


----------



## kawhia




----------



## Reactcore (Oct 21, 2022)

adrianm said:


> Yeah, they're downright evil. The clock makes such a difference, I'm sure their dacs are limited without it by design.


This whole external clock thing just puzzles me.. its just a few milimeter sized cristal oscillating giving a reference frequency which is being multiplied or devided creating the clock. If its off its stated number the processing either is to fast, slow or stopped totally.

In my career as radio repair technician i replaced many broken ones and maybe one or two slight shifted by age but never randomly modulating.

With any grade player/dac i never felt my music was off tune..

by placing it outside the dac the other internal electronics get only more receptable for radio interference.

Its easy to keep that securely inside.
Even if i tap on one i cant hear the effect.
..Yes i tried

Looks more like a trick.. degrading performance by leaving a external input not used


----------



## miketlse (Oct 22, 2022)

adrianm said:


> Chord stubbornly refuse to stick to separates (and the problems they come with), and that's fine, but that's not the path for me anymore.


The only part of your post which I would debate, is this sentence. I remember a post by Rob where he mentions that his design goal [edited] for DAVE was the best all-in-one DAC available for a reasonable price.

We are now seven or eight years down the design lifecycle, and the pendulum (driven by the gained knowledge and available technology) has swung in the other direction towards more stand alone boxes (dac, streamer, upscaler etc.....).

Just my personal opinion, but Chord fans should not get into flame wars with disbelievers, but maybe wait a couple of years until Rob and Chord have managed to put in place a product roadmap that current and future owners can understand, and buy into.
There is little enjoyment to be gained from online wars with ASR or similar.


----------



## sm60

kawhia said:


> I once was thinking about a Bartok. I spent some time reading on the dCS community website and almost everyone said that after a while they sold it and bought a Rossini or Vivaldi. I didn’t want to end up like that 😆😂


I owned the dCS stack 25 odd years ago — it was the Verdi transport, the Purcell clock and the Elgar Plus ring DAC. At that time, dCS DACs were clearly superior since they practically invented the high end DAC market and popularized upsampling as well. They also had real cred as DAC hardware geeks since they did a lot of high end DAC design for the UK defense department. But as time moved on, they seemed to lose their way as happens to so many companies. Their ring DAC technology used some clever dynamic matching technology to extract the best low level linearity, but that technology found its way into everyone else’s DACs as did upsampling. dCS didn’t have any further innovations left, except raise their prices many times over. They were oblivious to the benefits of streaming till recently, but at least their Lina DAC has a streaming input (unlike Dave, whose designs seems to date back to the mid 90s in terms how similar dCS BNC cabling was then  to what Chord still uses).

A lot of British bouquet audio firms have insane pricing (Harbeth, Linn, Naim, Chord, dCS), and seem oblivious to the fact that the pound is on almost equal parity with the dollar now. The country is in economic meltdown post Brexit and the current political shambles have accelerated their economic downfall  (when the leader’s shelf life is compared to an iceberg lettuce, you know it’s heading for a major economic calamity). It’s anyone‘s guess which of these boutique firms will survive the huge recession that’s coming their way. I wish them the best. There’s an awful lot of good talent there, but it’s starting to get bleak. I hope they survive.


----------



## miketlse

kawhia said:


>


Don't forget your bowl of popcorn...


----------



## Spawn300Z

kawhia said:


> PS: Lina Dac integrates a streamer and thus has more value than Dave. But it is also more expensive. And, as dCS is smart with marketing, you will certainly want to buy the clock as well, and thus shell out another 10000€. Then you look at 24k and would have to compare it to a highly altered Dave.


But the big down fall of the Lina is that it isn’t a true pre amp. There’s no Volume control.


----------



## adrianm

Spawn300Z said:


> But the big down fall of the Lina is that it isn’t a true pre amp. There’s no Volume control.


The Lina isn't a pre amp at all, it's a pure dac. Another smart segmentation of their range.


----------



## Spawn300Z

They should have made the outputs selectable and have volume control. That would have made this product better.  With no volume control you have to add a pre to use power amps or use an integrated amp.


----------



## miketlse

sm60 said:


> The country is in economic meltdown post Brexit and the current political shambles have accelerated their economic downfall  (when the leader’s shelf life is compared to an iceberg lettuce, you know it’s heading for a major economic calamity). It’s anyone‘s guess which of these boutique firms will survive the huge recession that’s coming their way. I wish them the best. There’s an awful lot of good talent there, but it’s starting to get bleak. I hope they survive.


I would never claim to agree with everything you post, however as one of many Brits who now live and work in the EU, we are despairing of how Britain is handling many issues post-Brexit.
We can only hope that these boutique firms survive.


----------



## adrianm

miketlse said:


> We are now seven or eight years down the design lifecycle, and the pendulum (driven by the gained knowledge and available technology) has swung the in the other direction towards more stand alone boxes (dac, streamer, upscaler, clock etc.....).


Just how I think dCS are being very sneaky with their line, I see no reason to exempt Chord from scrutiny (as well as the entire Hi-fi market). A lot of the claims they make are questionable/unverified due to "lack of time", yet I haven't seen much progress from them over these past 7 years.
    Just like dCS "want to sell you a clock" (as Rob put it), Chord "want to sell you an up-sampler. Can't be put in the same box due to performance degradation? Apparently dCS can put the Vivaldi in one box. As can Linn, and others. 
    Hqplayer is doing (perhaps the same) sync function processing ,with 16 milion taps and my CPU usage is barely at 3%, if even . As with most non dsd filters.
  As for the rest of the market? Overpriced streamers that sound great? The Grimm is literally an I3 Nuc running an upsampling algorithm. At least Taiko tries to throw in some higher end components in there in an effort to convince people it matters. I'm not saying they aren't good devices (don't know, don't care), I'm saying there's plenty of bs to go around.
   Some stuff matters, a lot of it doesn't, and i'm sick of testing everything. If the cheap dacs sounded as good (or better) as the ASR crowd are deluding themselves, I'd gladly get one of those instead of the Lina. Which sounded pretty great compared to everything I've heard, and good enough that I don't have to care anymore.


----------



## alxw0w

Reactcore said:


> This whole external clock thing just puzzles me.. its just a few milimeter sized cristal oscillating giving a reference frequency which is being multiplied or devided creating the clock. If its off its stated number the processing either is to fast, slow or stopped totally.
> 
> In my career as radio repair technician i replaced many broken ones and maybe one or two slight shifted by age but never randomly modulating.
> 
> ...


Yup, you know who said it's better to place clock outside dac? 
It's all subjective, when somebody says it's better, but is it actually? And how we define better?
It's a big rabbit hole.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

adrianm said:


> Just how I think dCS are being very sneaky with their line, I see no reason to exempt Chord from scrutiny (as well as the entire Hi-fi market). A lot of the claims they make are questionable/unverified due to "lack of time", yet I haven't seen much progress from them over these past 7 years.
> Just like dCS "want to sell you a clock" (as Rob put it), Chord "want to sell you an up-sampler. Can't be put in the same box due to performance degradation? Apparently dCS can put the Vivaldi in one box. As can Linn, and others.
> Hqplayer is doing (perhaps the same) sync function processing ,with 16 milion taps and my CPU usage is barely at 3%, if even . As with most non dsd filters.
> As for the rest of the market? Overpriced streamers that sound great? The Grimm is literally an I3 Nuc running an upsampling algorithm. At least Taiko tries to throw in some higher end components in there in an effort to convince people it matters. I'm not saying they aren't good devices (don't know, don't care), I'm saying there's plenty of bs to go around.
> Some stuff matters, a lot of it doesn't, and i'm sick of testing everything. If the cheap dacs sounded as good (or better) as the ASR crowd are deluding themselves, I'd gladly get one of those instead of the Lina. Which sounded pretty great compared to everything I've heard, and good enough that I don't have to care anymore.


That cult crowd sure is deluding themselves, it sure feels good to point fingers at others paying more money and calling them names because delusional individuals think the cheap stuff sounds better than the likes of dCS and MSB.


----------



## Reactcore (Oct 21, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> Yup, you know who said it's better to place clock outside dac?
> It's all subjective, when somebody says it's better, but is it actually? And how we define better?
> It's a big rabbit hole.


There many crowd followers.. well this sheep wanders its own way.. i dont believe in external clocks cause i cant technically reason the benefits..

But the RF issue i could so i went after it.. but not by following that part of the crowd because the ready available solutions could in my understanding of electronics be improved upon. i saw people struggling with batteries or pricey lps to feed opto dx agains net rf.

My simple guts just thought why not take that power from the devices themselves and save those batteries/psu's.. no loop possible! 
I dont like a pile of boxes.. make as simple as possible circuit without any regulation and cheap too.

I thought of placing Dave's and HMS PCB's both in one housing.. but i noticed quite some RF radiation from the internals doing my own tests and i cant ignore many keeping their units meters apart.. then it occured to me its the damn coax transmitting that ghz interference..even with ferrites on them.. and my decision was made to keep them in seperate shielded housings. But loose the coax 'antenna's' and go straight optical out.

With Dave's psu its the same.. i heard the impact of a Farad'ed Dave on both hp and speakers.. but my own logic tells me its all in the current reserve that Farad (and SJ) has that Dave's original PSU is a bit lacking.. why else did TT2 got such beefy caps?.. so i will provide Dave's amp section with it by placing carefully selected caps.. but on the right place.. AFTER the internal LM regulators.. im just still looking for the best ones.. and yes ..again it is a ridiculously cheap upgrade. Which..if my guts is right.. gives the same effect.


----------



## auricgoldfinger

kawhia said:


> Not sure if this has been posted but there is a reviewcomparing Dave and Lina by musicalhead. It is in German, but I guess you all know how to use translation websites.
> In short: Lina and Dave are overall on par and have both small advantages over the other. Both are great. But including the clock the reviewer thinks Lina is the best hp system available atm. However, he also thinks the amp is not great for Susvara, and prefers Riviera.
> https://musicalhead.de/2022/08/19/test-dcs-lina/



He compared the Lina stack to a stock DAVE.  I think the conclusion could be different with DAVE powered by a ARC DC4.  Just saying...


----------



## adrianm

auricgoldfinger said:


> He compared the Lina stack to a stock DAVE.  I think the conclusion could be different with DAVE powered by a ARC DC4.  Just saying...


My dave is plugged into a 3k regenerator thats’s plugged into a 2k filter. Without them, it wasn’t even close


----------



## SteveHulk

alxw0w said:


> Yup, you know who said it's better to place clock outside dac?
> It's all subjective, when somebody says it's better, but is it actually? And how we define better?
> It's a big rabbit hole.


For the manufacturers it is not just a case of the technical arguments but also sales and marketing. 

Putting functionality in separate boxes helps to ease buyers into their ecosystems by providing an entry point at a much lower price and then letting the buyer embark on an upgrade path. 

Ultimately, more money can potentially be extracted that way than by a single high-priced sale of a complete product. 

Having decided on a course of action, whichever it is, the manufacturer can then issue whatever techno babble they like as "justification" 😁


----------



## Ciggavelli

So all this dac talk got me curious.  I asked my dealer about DCS and MSB, and he's like no buy a Mula Mula Tambaqui or Playback Designs MPD-8.  I've never heard of Playback Designs, but from what I've been reading, this dac sounds amazing:

https://darko.audio/2018/07/playback-designs-mpd-8-dream-dac-review/
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2019/04/playback-designs-mpd-8-dream-dac-review.html

It got separate everything, linear power everything, upsampling, etc.  Anybody have any real world experience with it?  How does it compare to a SJ mDAVE?  It's $24k


----------



## Icenine2

Ciggavelli said:


> So all this dac talk got me curious.  I asked my dealer about DCS and MSB, and he's like no buy a Mula Mula Tambaqui or Playback Designs MPD-8.  I've never heard of Playback Designs, but from what I've been reading, this dac sounds amazing:
> 
> https://darko.audio/2018/07/playback-designs-mpd-8-dream-dac-review/
> https://www.monoandstereo.com/2019/04/playback-designs-mpd-8-dream-dac-review.html
> ...


The MSB equipment always looks so incredible. I'd love to hear their DAC's


----------



## Icenine2

Anyone running the Feliks Audio Envy?


----------



## ufospls2

Ciggavelli said:


> So all this dac talk got me curious.  I asked my dealer about DCS and MSB, and he's like no buy a Mula Mula Tambaqui or Playback Designs MPD-8.  I've never heard of Playback Designs, but from what I've been reading, this dac sounds amazing:
> 
> https://darko.audio/2018/07/playback-designs-mpd-8-dream-dac-review/
> https://www.monoandstereo.com/2019/04/playback-designs-mpd-8-dream-dac-review.html
> ...


The MPD-8 is really interesting. I know that the designer who does the digital code etc worked with EMM Labs and also did the Nagra HD DAC (if I'm remembering correctly) so there is a lot of pedigree there. Please report back if you end up hearing one


----------



## Rob Watts

miketlse said:


> The only part of your post which I would debate, is this sentence. I remember a post by Rob where he mentions that his design goal (and presumably agreed with Chord, or his R&D would not be funded) for DAVE was the best all-in-one DAC available for a reasonable price.
> 
> We are now seven or eight years down the design lifecycle, and the pendulum (driven by the gained knowledge and available technology) has swung the in the other direction towards more stand alone boxes (dac, streamer, upscaler, clock etc.....).
> 
> ...


Just to clarify - my R and D expenditure is funded solely by myself as I exclusively own the intellectual property for my designs. Some research that I do will not see a financial return at all; most work will take many years before I see some financial return. That does not bother me in the slightest, as the true return is getting more musical involvement - and I get those benefits several years before the new tech goes into production.


----------



## sm60

Icenine2 said:


> The MSB equipment always looks so incredible. I'd love to hear their DAC's


I was tempted to get one of the MSB DACs, as they’re also highly regarded, but their pricing for their high end models is stratospheric. Once prices get beyond 15-20 grand, I start to lose interest. It’s not that I can’t afford to get one, but digital technology moves quickly and has poor resale value (almost as bad as home theater products). Also I’m wary of reliability of mist solid state gear. Too many bad experiences. 

Ultimately I chose Lampizator as I like the sound of tubes. I’ve owned a lot of high end solid state gear over the past 30 years (Krell, Levinson, Classe’), but my various systems are now almost entirely tube based with occasional solid state gear like Chord Blu2/Dave. I find tube gear also far longer lasting. Other than tube replacement, a tube amplifier can last 60 years easily. Many McIntosh units from 60 years are still working fine, often with original tubes. I’ve had quite a few solid state preamps and amplifiers go bust on me (I have a dead Primare preamp and amplifier lying in my garage now — there’s a brand I’ll never touch again).  

My Audio Research products are 20+ years old and work flawlessly. Their build quality makes most else in hifi look like toys. Their CD8 Reference CD player is almost 40 pounds in weight. Built like a rock. Reads any CD in half a second. Massively built power supply. If I ever sell it, I’ll easily recoup what I paid for it. Quality like that is hard to find.


----------



## Reactcore (Oct 22, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> Just to clarify - my R and D expenditure is funded solely by myself as I exclusively own the intellectual property for my designs. Some research that I do will not see a financial return at all; most work will take many years before I see some financial return. That does not bother me in the slightest, as the true return is getting more musical involvement - and I get those benefits several years before the new tech goes into production.


Im sure this gives you much more freedom to chase your ideas and truly innovate😉

It was a fun read that you designed TT2's output with such high currrent availabillity just cause you wanted to use speakers with it yourself.. John only didnt wanted to fit some speaker terminals on his designed casing 

Btw: how is the DX amp progressing? Or is it moved down the list of Ultima and Choral scaler?


----------



## JTbbb

Icenine2 said:


> Anyone running the Feliks Audio Envy?


There is a Feliks Audio Envy thread.


----------



## Amberlamps

adrianm said:


> Luckily my Dave, like new is up for sale  Covid, Inflation, etc.



Yeah, but I presume you wont take a TT2 and some cash on top as payment ?


----------



## Amberlamps

Rob Watts said:


> Just to clarify - my R and D expenditure is funded solely by myself as I exclusively own the intellectual property for my designs. Some research that I do will not see a financial return at all; most work will take many years before I see some financial return. That does not bother me in the slightest, as the true return is getting more musical involvement - and I get those benefits several years before the new tech goes into production.



I was wondering Rob, I presume that you are in your 60’s, forgive me if I’m wrong, but it’s a well known fact that hearing loss occurs with age. So what does one do to get around the hearing loss equation.  Your hearing may not be as good as it was say 20 plus years ago, so how do you get around hearing loss when testing new products.

I’m not trying to troll you rob, seriously I’m not, I’m just curious how you do your testing, as every single day I wake up my hearing is different from the day before, sometimes better or somedays worse. And I’m only 47, 48 soon. When creating a new product, is the testing all done with your physical hearing tests ? or is there a machine tester in the loop, also, QC @ Chord, I’ve noticed many posts over the years from people with technical problems with chords new products, does yourself or chord have beta testers who sign a nda contract to test for any problems before the product goes live, or is it just a case of release x product and we’ll see how much failure returns we get.

Again I’m not poking you Rob as you have always been legit in my eyes, but I’m genuinely interested in the process. If you don’t want or are to busy to reply its all good, as I was just wondering how the process went from start to finish.


----------



## SteveHulk

Amberlamps said:


> Yeah, but I presume you wont take a TT2 and some cash on top as payment ?


If you really want a DAVE my advice is to grab this one and sell your TT2 separately, if you can make it work financially.


----------



## sm60

Amberlamps said:


> I was wondering Rob, I presume that you are in your 60’s, forgive me if I’m wrong, but it’s a well known fact that hearing loss occurs with age. So what does one do to get around the hearing loss equation.  Your hearing may not be as good as it was say 20 plus years ago, so how do you get around hearing loss when testing new products.
> 
> I’m not trying to troll you rob, seriously I’m not, I’m just curious how you do your testing, as every single day I wake up my hearing is different from the day before, sometimes better or somedays worse. And I’m only 47, 48 soon. When creating a new product, is the testing all done with your physical hearing tests ? or is there a machine tester in the loop, also, QC @ Chord, I’ve noticed many posts over the years from people with technical problems with chords new products, does yourself or chord have beta testers who sign a nda contract to test for any problems before the product goes live, or is it just a case of release x product and we’ll see how much failure returns we get.
> 
> Again I’m not poking you Rob as you have always been legit in my eyes, but I’m genuinely interested in the process. If you don’t want or are to busy to reply its all good, as I was just wondering how the process went from start to finish.


Being in my early 60s, I can relate. My first high end system was purchased in 1987, 35 years ago. My hearing was far better then. 😄 But I’ve been careful with volume settings. Never listen louder than low 80 dBs, average around mid 70 dB. I can still hear the nuances of different components, tubes, etc. I assume Rob’s hearing is as good or better than mine. It turns out that humans can acutely train themselves to hear minute differences if that’s what they do day in and day out. If you build violins for a living, as a modern day Stradivarius, you will know instinctively the differences between wood varnishes, bow structure, string tension etc. But as a 60 something male, biology kicks in. My hearing is not as good as my wife’s. Never was, and never will be. For some reason, women have far better high frequency hearing than men. Not sure why. Perhaps somebody here does. But remember that 99% of music lives in the midrange (100 Hz to 3-4 KHZ). The rest is just icing. As Peter Walker used to say, a loudspeaker is good or bad a long time before it gets to 10 KHZ. Same holds for DACs.


----------



## Amberlamps

SteveHulk said:


> If you really want a DAVE my advice is to grab this one and sell your TT2 separately, if you can make it work financially.



I contacted nintronics to see if they would give me a tradein for my TT2 and cash on top.  They said they would give me £4000 for my TT2 and with £6000, I thought he made a typo, so I did a quick google regarding daves and w.t.f the new ones are all sitting at £9995. w.t.f part 2.

I really thought I was gunna have a schit, as the last time I saw dave prices they were at £8500. This bloody war in urkaine and covid have made an absolute mess of our economy, and now they speaking about power cuts in winter time, and the funny thing is, we only relied on 4% from russias gas, which should not of made any difference to us as a whole.


----------



## Amberlamps

sm60 said:


> Being in my early 60s, I can relate. My first high end system was purchased in 1987, 35 years ago. My hearing was far better then. 😄 But I’ve been careful with volume settings. Never listen louder than low 80 dBs, average around mid 70 dB. I can still hear the nuances of different components, tubes, etc. I assume Rob’s hearing is as good or better than mine. It turns out that humans can acutely train themselves to hear minute differences if that’s what they do day in and day out. If you build violins for a living, as a modern day Stradivarius, you will know instinctively the differences between wood varnishes, bow structure, string tension etc. But as a 60 something male, biology kicks in. My hearing is not as good as my wife’s. Never was, and never will be. For some reason, women have far better high frequency hearing than men. Not sure why. Perhaps somebody here does. But remember that 99% of music lives in the midrange (100 Hz to 3-4 KHZ). The rest is just icing. As Peter Walker used to say, a loudspeaker is good or bad a long time before it gets to 10 KHZ. Same holds for DACs.



I can relate to that, as I have tinnitus and depending how I waken up, its either a good or bad tinnitus day.  I’m sure Rob can pick up nuances that others can’t since he does it nearly every day, and I deliberately left out the words “Golden Ears”, as thats a bullschit term for folk who just want to argue with Rob.

What I’m interested in is the process from its inception, to it’s creation and testing phase and from being released online, to then being in online stores and hifi shops for all to see and buy. Thats what I’m interested in, everything from start to finish, with particular attention being paid to the actual listening tests. He must be doing something right as loads of folk love his designs, me too.


----------



## SteveHulk

Amberlamps said:


> I contacted nintronics to see if they would give me a tradein for my TT2 and cash on top.  They said they would give me £4000 for my TT2 and with £6000, I thought he made a typo, so I did a quick google regarding daves and w.t.f the new ones are all sitting at £9995. w.t.f part 2.
> 
> I really thought I was gunna have a schit, as the last time I saw dave prices they were at £8500. This bloody war in urkaine and covid have made an absolute mess of our economy, and now they speaking about power cuts in winter time, and the funny thing is, we only relied on 4% from russias gas, which should not of made any difference to us as a whole.


Lol I'm A Brit too so I know all about it 😖 Our country is an international laughing stock 🤬

It looks online like you should be able to get over £3k for the TT2. That would leave you to find £4k for @adrianm DAVE as opposed to £6k for the nintronics deal. 

The fact that it isn't brand new is very probably not a problem.


----------



## sm60

SteveHulk said:


> Lol I'm A Brit too so I know all about it 😖 Our country is an international laughing stock 🤬
> 
> It looks online like you should be able to get over £3k for the TT2. That would leave you to find £4k for @adrianm DAVE as opposed to £6k for the nintronics deal.
> 
> The fact that it isn't brand new is very probably not a problem.


The UK will get over this, I’m sure (although I hear Boris might be back, like the famous Roman general Cincinatus who he quoted on his way out of Number 10).

I am listening now to a lovely  Harmonia MundI recording of a 16th century Flemish composer, sung by Stile Antico, one of my favorite British early music groups. Recorded in All Hallows’ Church in London by the inestimable Brad Michel who has engineered many fine recordings for this label with producer Robina Young. Qobuz has the high Rez bitstream. Great recording of acapella singers. Transports you back 500 years.

Let‘s not forget the Brits were the first to split the atom, design the first computers with Alan Turing, cracked the DNA code, and gave us The Lord of the Rings courtesy of Tolkien. I have faith in the British people that they will emerge from the current spate of bad leadership. Times will be hard for a while, but you’ve gone through much worse and came out triumphant (The Blitz of World War II, which destroyed large parts of London).

So, cheer up and listen to this fabulous Stile Antico recording!


----------



## 801evan

Amberlamps said:


> I was wondering Rob, I presume that you are in your 60’s, forgive me if I’m wrong, but it’s a well known fact that hearing loss occurs with age. So what does one do to get around the hearing loss equation.  Your hearing may not be as good as it was say 20 plus years ago, so how do you get around hearing loss when testing new products.
> 
> I’m not trying to troll you rob, seriously I’m not, I’m just curious how you do your testing, as every single day I wake up my hearing is different from the day before, sometimes better or somedays worse. And I’m only 47, 48 soon. When creating a new product, is the testing all done with your physical hearing tests ? or is there a machine tester in the loop, also, QC @ Chord, I’ve noticed many posts over the years from people with technical problems with chords new products, does yourself or chord have beta testers who sign a nda contract to test for any problems before the product goes live, or is it just a case of release x product and we’ll see how much failure returns we get.
> 
> Again I’m not poking you Rob as you have always been legit in my eyes, but I’m genuinely interested in the process. If you don’t want or are to busy to reply its all good, as I was just wondering how the process went from start to finish.


Age may seem like a factor until you see the youth aren't really better than Rob's age group in discernment and judgement in their audio reviews/impressions.


----------



## pichler

801evan said:


> Age may seem like a factor until you see the youth aren't really better than Rob's age group in discernment and judgement in their audio reviews/impressions.



You wrote exactly what I was thinking.


----------



## pichler

An early music (very interesting) program on RTE Lyrics (Ireland National Broadcasting) begins in a few minutes.


----------



## Amberlamps (Oct 23, 2022)

sm60 said:


> The UK will get over this, I’m sure (although I hear Boris might be back, like the famous Roman general Cincinatus who he quoted on his way out of Number 10).
> 
> I am listening now to a lovely  Harmonia MundI recording of a 16th century Flemish composer, sung by Stile Antico, one of my favorite British early music groups. Recorded in All Hallows’ Church in London by the inestimable Brad Michel who has engineered many fine recordings for this label with producer Robina Young. Qobuz has the high Rez bitstream. Great recording of acapella singers. Transports you back 500 years.
> 
> ...



Not sure if you have heard this one, but for me it gives me goose bumps


----------



## adrianm

Amberlamps said:


> Yeah, but I presume you wont take a TT2 and some cash on top as payment ?


Sorry, i missed you post. Just cash ,i’m afraid. Pretty sure you can sell
Yours before i sell mine with the price being lower though.


----------



## JamieMcC

Amberlamps said:


> I contacted nintronics to see if they would give me a tradein for my TT2 and cash on top.  They said they would give me £4000 for my TT2 and with £6000, I thought he made a typo, so I did a quick google regarding daves and w.t.f the new ones are all sitting at £9995. w.t.f part 2.



There have been a couple of Dave's come up for sale on the UK hifi wigwam site over the last couple of months one I think was a year old for £6500 another older one for a bit less but older.  A lot of the UK ones from the likes of Peter Tyson, Seven oaks etc came with 5 years warranty which to me woul make buying Preloved around the £6-£7 area a more attractive option.  

My advice check out the Chord dealers clearance, Preloved, open box, ex demo or manufacturer refurbished listings on their websites.


----------



## Amberlamps

JamieMcC said:


> There have been a couple of Dave's come up for sale on the UK hifi wigwam site over the last couple of months one I think was a year old for £6500 another older one for a bit less but older.  A lot of the UK ones from the likes of Peter Tyson, Seven oaks etc came with 5 years warranty which to me woul make buying Preloved around the £6-£7 area a more attractive option.
> 
> My advice check out the Chord dealers clearance, Preloved, open box, ex demo or manufacturer refurbished listings on their websites.



I did a fair amount of business with peter tyson back in the day, and passed PT on to a good few peeps here who were in the market for a Hugo 2.

For a second hand dave with a 5 year warranty, thats a no brainer, I just have to get rid of my tt2 and possibly my mscaler also for me to get a good deal like you mention.


----------



## zen87192

Another high recommendation I'd give is to Fanthorpes HiFi based in Hull. A great Chord dealer, as well as other top ranking manufacturers, with absolutely top notch customer services. Very knowledgeable and understanding professionals.


----------



## SteveHulk

Amberlamps said:


> I did a fair amount of business with peter tyson back in the day, and passed PT on to a good few peeps here who were in the market for a Hugo 2.
> 
> For a second hand dave with a 5 year warranty, thats a no brainer, I just have to get rid of my tt2 and possibly my mscaler also for me to get a good deal like you mention.


I'd try to hang on to the m scaler if I were you...


----------



## Powersquat

zen87192 said:


> Another high recommendation I'd give is to Fanthorpes HiFi based in Hull. A great Chord dealer, as well as other top ranking manufacturers, with absolutely top notch customer services. Very knowledgeable and understanding professionals.



I totally agree, Marc and Steve from Fanthorpe's delivered and installed my new speakers last week, the time and care they took in placing the speakers was incredible, but it's paid off as although still running in, the speakers sound wonderful and really highlight what the MScaler and Dave combo brings to the table.  

when I purchased my Dave Marc gave me the full RRP for my TT2 against a new Dave, unfortunately Dave has risen in price significantly during the past 12 months.


----------



## adrianm

SteveHulk said:


> I'd try to hang on to the m scaler if I were you...


Fwiw I preferred my Dave without it after a year and a half of ownership. Switched between solo Dave and Hqp.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Amberlamps said:


> I did a fair amount of business with peter tyson back in the day, and passed PT on to a good few peeps here who were in the market for a Hugo 2.
> 
> For a second hand dave with a 5 year warranty, thats a no brainer, I just have to get rid of my tt2 and possibly my mscaler also for me to get a good deal like you mention.





SteveHulk said:


> I'd try to hang on to the m scaler if I were you...



Yea I would certainly try to hang on to it, especially if you already have it and assuming you appreciate it with the TT2. It only gets more impressive as you scale up. I'd wait until trying the pair before offloading it.


----------



## Reactcore

Amberlamps said:


> I was wondering Rob, I presume that you are in your 60’s, forgive me if I’m wrong, but it’s a well known fact that hearing loss occurs with age. So what does one do to get around the hearing loss equation.  Your hearing may not be as good as it was say 20 plus years ago, so how do you get around hearing loss when testing new products.
> 
> I’m not trying to troll you rob, seriously I’m not, I’m just curious how you do your testing, as every single day I wake up my hearing is different from the day before, sometimes better or somedays worse. And I’m only 47, 48 soon. When creating a new product, is the testing all done with your physical hearing tests ? or is there a machine tester in the loop, also, QC @ Chord, I’ve noticed many posts over the years from people with technical problems with chords new products, does yourself or chord have beta testers who sign a nda contract to test for any problems before the product goes live, or is it just a case of release x product and we’ll see how much failure returns we get.
> 
> Again I’m not poking you Rob as you have always been legit in my eyes, but I’m genuinely interested in the process. If you don’t want or are to busy to reply its all good, as I was just wondering how the process went from start to finish.


The areas Rob is focussing on are mostly phase shifts, transients and depth reproduction.. all things the brain can make up out of small audio signal differences.. not so much the highest frequencies..

I remember i read somewhere how amazed he was how little ones ears degrade for these important aspects..


----------



## Icenine2 (Oct 24, 2022)

Being an actual owner of DAVE, enjoy following this thread on occasion, but also have to unwatch once in a while, when the talk goes sideways. My guess would be from people who don’t even own one of these. So I’ll stop back in maybe a month and see what’s going on


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## adrianm

Icenine2 said:


> Being an actual owner of DAVEI, enjoy following this thread on occasion, but also have to unwatch once in a while, when the talk goes sideways. My guess would be from people who don’t even own one of these. So I’ll stop back in maybe a month and see what’s going on


I’d call it a mental health requirement at this point


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## Amberlamps (Oct 24, 2022)

Icenine2 said:


> Being an actual owner of DAVE, enjoy following this thread on occasion, but also have to unwatch once in a while, when the talk goes sideways. My guess would be from people who don’t even own one of these. So I’ll stop back in maybe a month and see what’s going on



If you are aiming your post at me, there is only one thing I can say, and thats, bye felicia, see you next month. 



adrianm said:


> I’d call it a mental health requirement at this point



Lol, if you have jumped on the anti amberlamps band wagon, then go play with the other bloke, cough cough…….


----------



## Amberlamps

Reactcore said:


> The areas Rob is focussing on are mostly phase shifts, transients and depth reproduction.. all things the brain can make up out of small audio signal differences.. not so much the highest frequencies..
> 
> I remember i read somewhere how amazed he was how little ones ears degrade for these important aspects..



I had read and saw some videos of rob discussing his theory, but that was at a time when I didn’t look to much in to how it was all done. I remember rob telling me that it takes roughly 18 months from thinking about a product and for said product to be released or something like that. I just wondered what steps its goes through from A to Z, where Z is product release.

My ears are trashed so trying to detect small changes is not my thing, aslong as what I hear sounds good, thats all that matters to me.


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## adrianm (Oct 25, 2022)

Amberlamps said:


> Lol, if you have jumped on the anti amberlamps band wagon, then go play with the other bloke, cough cough…….


Mate you clearly don’t spend a lot of time here if you think that was aimed at you. Not sure what Ice meant, but at least you were asking valid questions ( especially about Rob’s listening tests, which i was itching to get at before throwing in the towel) , as opposed to throwing holy water on your Dave and coming back to share what a revelation it’s been, or proclaiming all dac’s sound the same


----------



## Amberlamps (Oct 25, 2022)

adrianm said:


> Mate you clearly don’t spend a lot of time here if you think that was aimed at you. Not sure what Ice meant, but at least you were asking valid questions ( especially about Rob’s listening tests, which i was itching to get at before throwing in the towel) , as opposed to throwing holy water on your Dave and coming back to share what a revelation it’s been, or proclaiming all dac’s sound the same



I must admit I do not often venture in to the dave thread much, but I do visit the forums alot, although I didn’t visit much during the summer.

The reason why I thought it was aimed at me was because I asked a question which to some, it may looked / sounded like I was trolling or derailing the thread.  If it wasn’t aimed at me then some peoples posts could of been deleted making it look like it was aimed at me.

I don’t own a Dave, but I wished I tried one to see what it’s like. And I agree with you that dacs dont sound the same. In the space of 12 or so months I bought a mojo, poly, hugo 2 and then a tt2 and mscaler and not one of them sounds the same, as they all have their own sound signature.

My apologies to you for taking your post the wrong way.


----------



## adrianm

Amberlamps said:


> I don’t own a Dave, but I wished I tried one to see what it’s like


 To me, it's a huge step up from even TT2/M-scaler. I had a Mojo and auditioned the whole range out of curiosity. Initially planning to spend 2k at most, but I felt Dave was in a league of it's own compared to everything else, and the sound became addictive. As did the need to improve it when I noticed how much better it can get.
   That said, I thought the M-scaler came with some pros, but also a lot of cons, and like many others, preferred Dave without it. I still alternate between HQP or no HQP. If you like the rest of the Chord range, I can't imagine you wouldn't love Dave.


----------



## Amberlamps

adrianm said:


> To me, it's a huge step up from even TT2/M-scaler. I had a Mojo and auditioned the whole range out of curiosity. Initially planning to spend 2k at most, but I felt Dave was in a league of it's own compared to everything else, and the sound became addictive. As did the need to improve it when I noticed how much better it can get.
> That said, I thought the M-scaler came with some pros, but also a lot of cons, and like many others, preferred Dave without it. I still alternate between HQP or no HQP. If you like the rest of the Chord range, I can't imagine you wouldn't love Dave.



When TT2 and MScaler were just about to be released, I was back n forth thinking about which one to buy, in the end I went with the tt2 and mscaler on the sole assumption that dave was 6 years old at the time and I thought tt2 with the mscaler would of rivalled or surpassed dave, but from what I’ve been told dave still is the king.

If it wasn’t for the hike in price to 10K for a dave, I would probably be in the middle of a trade in today. I really thought the dude in the email I got had made a typo, 4k for my tt2 and 6k cash on top, but alas dave has hiked up in price along with everything else nowadays.


----------



## adrianm

Amberlamps said:


> When TT2 and MScaler were just about to be released, I was back n forth thinking about which one to buy, in the end I went with the tt2 and mscaler on the sole assumption that dave was 6 years old at the time and I thought tt2 with the mscaler would of rivalled or surpassed dave, but from what I’ve been told dave still is the king.
> 
> If it wasn’t for the hike in price to 10K for a dave, I would probably be in the middle of a trade in today. I really thought the dude in the email I got had made a typo, 4k for my tt2 and 6k cash on top, but alas dave has hiked up in price along with everything else nowadays.


As I plan on upgrading, I clearly think it can be bettered, but for considerably more money. With that in mind, and the fact that Dave is already a bit old and does require some improvements, I wouldn't buy one new.  I'd use the savings from buying a used one to improve the areas where it does need improving, or I'd audition better (sadly more expensive ) alternatives. As biased as that may sound from a guy currently selling his Dave.


----------



## Amberlamps

adrianm said:


> As I plan on upgrading, I clearly think it can be bettered, but for considerably more money. With that in mind, and the fact that Dave is already a bit old and does require some improvements, I wouldn't buy one new.  I'd use the savings from buying a used one to improve the areas where it does need improving, or I'd audition better (sadly more expensive ) alternatives. As biased as that may sound from a guy currently selling his Dave.



Being 6 year older than TT2 and HMS, that was the main niggle I had regarding buying a new dave. At 10k there is not a chance of me buying it, as previously it was 8500 when it was 6 years old, now its 10k and its now 7 or 8 years old. I just wished I could of demoed one before buying my TT2, ( which btw is excellent for my needs ) but I live in the sticks and the nearest approved dave retailer is like 120 miles away from me. 

I suppose my best bet is to sell either tt2 on its own or tt2 and hms together on ebay and try and pick up a second hand one. I did that with my Hugo 2 and both sides walked away happy from that deal, but then I got scalped on ebay before xmas for a sealed nvidia 3070ti.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Blast to the past


----------



## CBR954RR

Completely agree with the posts regarding Fanthorpes 👍 

Purchased all my Chord products from them starting with the Hugo when the product was launched. 
Hugo long gone, now own HMS / DAVE / Wave Storm cables. 

Done now I think 🤔


----------



## Rob Watts

Reactcore said:


> Im sure this gives you much more freedom to chase your ideas and truly innovate😉
> 
> It was a fun read that you designed TT2's output with such high currrent availabillity just cause you wanted to use speakers with it yourself.. John only didnt wanted to fit some speaker terminals on his designed casing
> 
> Btw: how is the DX amp progressing? Or is it moved down the list of Ultima and Choral scaler?



Ultima DAC and the Choral scaler is, and has been, taking up a huge amount of my time. These are not incremental projects....



Amberlamps said:


> I was wondering Rob, I presume that you are in your 60’s, forgive me if I’m wrong, but it’s a well known fact that hearing loss occurs with age. So what does one do to get around the hearing loss equation.  Your hearing may not be as good as it was say 20 plus years ago, so how do you get around hearing loss when testing new products.
> 
> I’m not trying to troll you rob, seriously I’m not, I’m just curious how you do your testing, as every single day I wake up my hearing is different from the day before, sometimes better or somedays worse. And I’m only 47, 48 soon. When creating a new product, is the testing all done with your physical hearing tests ? or is there a machine tester in the loop, also, QC @ Chord, I’ve noticed many posts over the years from people with technical problems with chords new products, does yourself or chord have beta testers who sign a nda contract to test for any problems before the product goes live, or is it just a case of release x product and we’ll see how much failure returns we get.
> 
> Again I’m not poking you Rob as you have always been legit in my eyes, but I’m genuinely interested in the process. If you don’t want or are to busy to reply its all good, as I was just wondering how the process went from start to finish.



Yes I just turned 62. But I am physically fitter than when I was in my 30's! Last time I checked out my hearing I could hear 15kHz both ears, and sense 16kHz, so not too bad on the high frequencies. But HF hearing loss does not affect critical sensitivities - like the perception of depth and location, or being able to perceive instruments as sounding real, as these qualities depend more on transient timing, and that factor does not age so much as high frequency hearing loss does.

If I did lose my hearing sensitivity, then that would not be a major disaster - my son could easily take over my objective listening tests, as he has good sensitivity and has been trained by me, so can objectively describe things. What worries me more is cognitive decline, and being able to design and come up with new creative solutions. So far my experience vastly outweighs the fact that I am not as intellectually sharp as when I was young; and the fact of the matter is that I am still improving my understanding, and coming up with sound quality improvements, for digital audio. I just hope that continues for as long as possible.

Sure Chord put new products through an initial test batch process, so that reliability, user functionality, looks and feel and sound quality can be assessed by NDA third parties, well before mass production.


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## zen87192 (Oct 26, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> Ultima DAC and the Choral scaler is, and has been, taking up a huge amount of my time. These are not incremental projects....


Excellent... Choral Scaler... knew I heard that somewhere a while back. Now for that price please... are we all sitting down ?


----------



## GuiltyRocker

zen87192 said:


> Excellent... Choral Scaler... knew I heard that somewhere a while back. Now for that price please... are we all sitting down ?


Hahahaahhahaha


----------



## seaice (Oct 26, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> Ultima DAC and the Choral scaler is, and has been, taking up a huge amount of my time. These are not incremental projects....



Any chance of becoming a beta tester? 

... To help the good thing and to get a prototype


----------



## Amberlamps

Rob Watts said:


> mmUltima DAC and the Choral scaler is, and has been, taking up a huge amount of my time. These are not incremental projects....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi rob and thanks for answering my post.

It’s good to hear that you are fitter more now, than you were before;

*“HF hearing loss does not affect critical sensitivities - like the perception of depth and location, or being able to perceive instruments as sounding real, as these qualities depend more on transient timing”*


It’s good to hear that HF hearing loss does not affect critical sensitivities. And that transients doesn’t age like HF hearing loss does. As I thought that losing HF would lead to more hearing loss and that everything you just mentioned in bold would of also been badly affected, so it’s good to know that HF hearing loss doesn’t work like that. 

Training your son to get in to this game is a genius chess move, keep the IP in the family so that you all will benefit from it now and in the future. Hopefully he is just as focused in this game as you are…which I’m sure he is, as I seem to recall you mentioning him in one of your posts a while back.

The last time I tested my hearing was via some app on my ipad, my hearing topped out at circa 12khz so it said, whether thats legit I have no idea however,  I did have a test a year or so ago at the ENT clinic, whilst in the cool sound proof booth, me being me, after a wee while I closed my eyes and forgot to keep pushing the button when I heard something, the room made me relax kinda too much.  They did notice a difference from earlier tests but I forgot to ask them how many khz I could hear, which was the main reason I went there in the first place.

Don’t worry too much about Cognitive Decline, as by the time you notice it, you will have already forgotten about it. 😂

I’m sure you still have many years in front of you to dedicated to making new improvements, designs and products. Also the 60’s are the new middle age so no need to worry just yet.

I had a feeling that Chord handed out new products to test to third party NDA participants, my guess would be that it’s authorised chord retailers, or possibly some of chord workers. 

Anyway, thanks for replying and maybe just maybe I will get me some Dave 2 goodness.

👍🏻😎


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## Lgn3 (Oct 27, 2022)

Amberlamps said:


> Hi rob and thanks for answering my post.
> 
> It’s good to hear that you are fitter more now, than you were before;
> 
> ...



I have posted before about hearing loss so found @Amberlamps original post on this topic very welcome. Rob is very lucky as most over 60's can hear nothing over 12khz, and many may not hear even that frequency. It would be interesting to play a younger person who could hear up to 18khz, a hi res recording, then the same recording stripped of all frequencies above 12khz and finally a red book version and ask them which of the two sounded most degraded compared to the original. In effect you would be giving  a 25 year old the listening experience of a typical over 60 year old, at least of the higher frequencies. By the way I am in my late 60's and have no high frequency hearing over 12khz.


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## SteveHulk (Oct 27, 2022)

I think the situation is rather more complex than that.

Firstly, let's check back and remember that the perceived pitch of a sound is a logarithmic function of the frequency.

If you consider the frequency range from 10kHz to 20kHz (ie more or less the red book limit) that is just one octave. The young person maybe gets to 17/18kHz which is much less than the whole octave. Probably barely half of it. If the older person is getting 12kHz then in terms of that octave they have lost just a few notes from that octave compared to the younger guy. Losing 6kHz sounds terrible but in terms of the musical scale it is really not a big deal.

Secondly, in real life these high frequencies are not heard in isolation, but as the harmonic components of sounds that are much lower in pitch.

This is where psychoacoustics kicks in and we have to remember that perceiving sound is a learned experience.

The human brain is excellent at fixing low quality input from the sensory organs, filling in missing pieces and recreating the original. If we weren't capable of doing this most audio systems would be completely unlistenable.

As the older person's ears deteriorate, they learn to re-interpret the changes in the signals from the nerves in the inner ear in terms of their additional decades of learning how to interpret those same sounds. Even though the signal from the ears themselves has degraded, what will be presented to the older person's conscious mind will be still close to what would have been presented when that person was still young.

In short, even though the older person's ears have deteriorated in absolute terms, the deterioration of the listening experience will be much less than the raw frequency numbers might suggest.

The younger person in your experiment would miss those higher frequencies much more than the older person does.

Simply chopping off those high frequencies will not recreate in the younger person's mind the same listening experience as in the older person's mind.


----------



## Jawed

Rob Watts said:


> Ultima DAC and the Choral scaler is, and has been, taking up a huge amount of my time. These are not incremental projects....


Does the design brief for Ultima DAC include headphone output, or is it purely a fixed level DAC?


----------



## marcmccalmont

Is anyone aware of a digital to digital converter that supports dual bnc output?
My Gustard U18 is a noticeable improvement over the src dx but it is limited to a single coax output.


----------



## LucyWu (Oct 28, 2022)

marcmccalmont said:


> Is anyone aware of a digital to digital converter that supports dual bnc output?
> My Gustard U18 is a noticeable improvement over the src dx but it is limited to a single coax output.


I haven't come across anything other than the SRC.DX that conforms to the Chord dual bnc arrangement. I am unclear whether Rob's approach conforms to dual-wire AES, which is not widely supported but there are a few devices that cover that.

I am surprised you find improvement with the U18. I've tried that arrangement too and found that (with the best power supply for the SRC.DX that I have available) the SRC.DX (with a Matrix Element H USB card and no USB cable - so SRC.DX plugged directed into the USB port by a hard adapter) was exceptional. 

The Gustard device is a good device and works well with the Gustard X26pro so I don't doubt good results.Just that every change of power supply to the SRC.DX and every change in connecting USB link made a big difference, in single or dual output mode.


----------



## Lgn3

SteveHulk said:


> I think the situation is rather more complex than that.
> 
> Firstly, let's check back and remember that the perceived pitch of a sound is a logarithmic function of the frequency.
> 
> ...



I agree  there is much more to the listening experience than an ability to distinguish higher frequencies. For most music we are talking about overtones and harmonics, as you say. However which do you think would be most noticeable to our theoretical younger listener, a recording stripped of musical information he/she can hear I.e. 12 -18 khz,   or those our subject cannot i.e.  everything above 18khz which are present in a hi res recording? Or to turn our thought experiment around if our older listener could have his/her high frequency hearing loss restored would that be more noticeable than the perceived difference between red book and hi res ? 
At any rate the best hi fi upgrade I have experienced in the past 20 years was having my ears syringed and it was free, courtesy of the NHS !


----------



## LucyWu

Hi Rez does not really contain any more meaningful content over and above red book files - which were specified to capture the widest audible frequency band. So our theoretical youth wouldn't glean much above 18khz. Whether musical instruments contain harmonics above 18khz (even 21khz) is meaningless to pretty much everyone unless you're an audiophile dog or bat. The frequencies that most people complain about in respect of harshness or overly bright are generally under 10kz and often result from distortion in the presence band. 

I remember the same effect from having my ears syringed - a great, if short-lived upgrade.


----------



## marcmccalmont

LucyWu said:


> I haven't come across anything other than the SRC.DX that conforms to the Chord dual bnc arrangement. I am unclear whether Rob's approach conforms to dual-wire AES, which is not widely supported but there are a few devices that cover that.
> 
> I am surprised you find improvement with the U18. I've tried that arrangement too and found that (with the best power supply for the SRC.DX that I have available) the SRC.DX (with a Matrix Element H USB card and no USB cable - so SRC.DX plugged directed into the USB port by a hard adapter) was exceptional.
> 
> The Gustard device is a good device and works well with the Gustard X26pro so I don't doubt good results.Just that every change of power supply to the SRC.DX and every change in connecting USB link made a big difference, in single or dual output mode.


I’m using the src dx stock using usb power  how do you hack it for external power and what power supply do you use?


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## Lgn3 (Oct 28, 2022)

LucyWu said:


> Hi Rez does not really contain any more meaningful content over and above red book files - which were specified to capture the widest audible frequency band. So our theoretical youth wouldn't glean much above 18khz. Whether musical instruments contain harmonics above 18khz (even 21khz) is meaningless to pretty much everyone unless you're an audiophile dog or bat. The frequencies that most people complain about in respect of harshness or overly bright are generally under 10kz and often result from distortion in the presence band.
> 
> I remember the same effect from having my ears syringed - a great, if short-lived upgrade.



Quite.This is why I am skeptical of claims of significant ( at least significant enough to be reliably identified ) audible differences between hi res and red book and particularly skeptical if the claim is made by a 60+ year old. This assumes same mastering.


----------



## LucyWu (Oct 28, 2022)

marcmccalmont said:


> I’m using the src dx stock using usb power  how do you hack it for external power and what power supply do you use?


No hacking involved. The main (possibly only) advantage to using a "audiophile" USB card in the computer is that you can power them externally with a very good supply completely separate from the noisy computer supplies. The SRC.DX is then powered by the high quality supply powering the USB card directly from the USB port. I use the Matrix Element H, but the JCAT USB XE is probably a bit better overall.



Lgn3 said:


> Quite.This is why I am skeptical of claims of significant ( at least significant enough to be reliably identified ) audible differences between hi res and red book and particularly skeptical if the claim is made by a 60+ year old. This assumes same mastering.


I think advantages in hi rez mastering is in being able to use gentler filters which reduces aliasing effects around the filter cutoff point. Delta/Sigma schemes probably produce a cleaner output with less down/up sampling required to get from hi rez ds mastering stage to DAC output. Wider bit depth is possibly more advantageous sonically but is not relevant to a discussion of high frequency content.


----------



## Lgn3

LucyWu said:


> I think advantages in hi rez mastering is in being able to use gentler filters which reduces aliasing effects around the filter cutoff point. Delta/Sigma schemes probably produce a cleaner output with less down/up sampling required to get from hi rez ds mastering stage to DAC output. Wider bit depth is possibly more advantageous sonically but is not relevant to a discussion of high frequency content.



I agree greater bit depth in mastering allows more headroom for engineers in the studio but whether the resulting master released as hi res or red book is audibly different I am not so sure. In any case I must be careful not to stray from Dave thread.


----------



## SteveHulk

LucyWu said:


> I remember the same effect from having my ears syringed - a great, if short-lived upgrade.


This is actually an interesting case in point. 

The wax buildup would be like ageing in fast-forward. 

As the wax builds up the performance of the ear degrades more and more due to the increasing blockage. During this process the brain progressively compensates for the loss so that the listening experience in the conscious mind remains consistent with the learned expectation for those sounds. 

When you got your ears syringed the performance of the ear was suddenly restored but the adjustment that the brain was then making remained as your "short-lived upgrade" and persisted until this enhancement was unwound and your hearing returned to normal. 

I remember much the same effect when I spent some time in an anechoic chamber. I stepped out into a universe of tiny tiny sounds and I could actually have heard a pin drop. After a short while my brain readjusted and all those sounds just faded away.

While I was in the total silence of the chamber my brain had been effectively "turning up the gain" in an effort to maintain consistency with an expected soundscape which simply wasn't there. 

When I came out the "gain" stayed high for a while and I experienced that preternaturally sharp hearing until the "gain" went back down to normal. 

It just shows how much the brain processes sound between the initial detection by nerves in the ear and the final presentation to the conscious mind.


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## LucyWu (Oct 28, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> This is actually an interesting case in point.
> 
> The wax buildup would be like ageing in fast-forward.
> 
> ...


Good points Steve - after my syringing I remember the rustle of my clothing walking back to the car - it was like the whole world was close-miked and directly injected into my ear canal for a couple of hours. Fun in an odd way!

I've spent some time in anechoic chambers too and I agree - the change when you come back out is very profound.


----------



## Drewligarchy

About 6 months ago I queried the board on the best way to use my Chord Dave / M-scaler with both my headphones and a potential two channel setup.

6 months and a little bit too much money later, the set up is complete:

My Lumin U1 is acting as transport for my Chord gear, complete with Opto DX and Wave Cables. As I have two headphone amps + an integrated (Pass Int 60) for the two channel, I got a decware splitter box to go to my Woo Wa33 Elite, and Enleum 23r. The balanced out of my Chord Dave is feeding a 15-20 foot run, under the carpet, to my Pass Integrated. Pass is driving a pair of Martin Logan Expression 13a

While I use the Lumin/Dave front end for music, I got and RME ADI-2 specifically for taking the optical out of the TV and feeding another pair of balanced cables to the Int 60s second input. While the interconnects, due to length, are Blue Jeans and Mogami, I got a full loom of Nordost speaker cables and power cords. Last piece was an upgrade to a 77 inch LG C2 OLED. Thanks for all your help! The Dave sounds flawless - even with that run. I think I'm finally at endgame; either way, I have a helluva office / man cave:


----------



## Lgn3

SteveHulk said:


> This is actually an interesting case in point.
> 
> The wax buildup would be like ageing in fast-forward.
> 
> ...



Brain trying to compensate may have some downsides !

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnagi.2022.821537/full


----------



## SteveHulk (Oct 28, 2022)

Lgn3 said:


> Brain trying to compensate may have some downsides !
> 
> https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnagi.2022.821537/full


I read the article. Very interesting.

Discussions such as this one we are having here and this kind of research inform the decisions taken when designing a piece of kit such as the DAVE.

The research establishes a correlation between hearing loss and anxiety without establishing cause and effect.

I have, however, long held the suspicion that environmental noise and hearing loss are just two triggers of a common mechanism that is damaging to human psychological and physiological health.

My idea is rooted in the survival value of hearing for a wild animal.

Hearing enables a wild animal to monitor its surroundings continuously for the small sounds that might be the only warning of an imminent predator attack. The animal can relax (to some degree) while this monitoring is carried out continuously on its entire surroundings with no blind spots.

Hearing loss would increase stress in such an animal because then there would be a systematically heightened threat of undetected attack, requiring more constant visual monitoring and heightened alertness.

I think that the reason that noise in the modern environment is known to be so damaging to health is something similar: the noise blots out small sounds leaving you in a similar heightened state of stress.

This persistent elevated chronic stress results in health problems that flow from the elevated heart rate, blood pressure, adrenaline levels etc that are a response to stress.

A high-quality sound system provides these small sound cues that enable relaxation and the ebbing away of stress. The music being realistic and therefore easy to listen to is one of the hallmarks of quality in a sound system.

I think this is an important reason why the attention to very small tiny sounds and strict control of the noise floor elevates the performance of DAVE to the high level it reaches.


----------



## miketlse

I'm reading 'The Selfish Gene - 40th anniversary edition', and earlier this week read the section explaining that genes that had negative effects later in life, after reproduction had been completed, might remain in the gene pool for a long period without being eliminated.

It is plausible that modern day environmental noise might be causing the effects you describe, but that it will take many more generations of humans before the gene pool has become modified enough (if it ever will?) to negate the impacts of the hearing loss.

I am certainly finding it thought provoking re-reading the book again 40+ years after the first time, and realising how much of the deep explanation that I failed to fully comprehend the first time.


----------



## miketlse

GuiltyRocker said:


> So basically messing around with switches and clocks is a waste of time and money.


Rob has already posted that conclusion for domestic users who just want to listen to two channel music, using Chord equipment.

Nevertheless there is an increasing number of enthusiasts on head-fi and other forums, happily posting about the potential benefits of removing the original clock chips in Chord dacs, with more expensive higher spec chips.
I prefer to trust Robs engineering knowledge, and suspect that any claimed 'improvements' are expectation bias.

Rob has also posted that for multi-channel users in recording studios, external clocks are best practice because of the need to keep all the multiple ADC, DAC etc in sync.
This will no doubt impact the ongoing development of the Chord ADC for professional users.
In theory enthusiasts could talk about upgrading those chips etc.
However that does represent a niche use of Chord gear, which will not be encountered by virtually all Chord owners.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

miketlse said:


> Rob has already posted that conclusion for domestic users who just want to listen to two channel music, using Chord equipment.
> 
> Nevertheless there is an increasing number of enthusiasts on head-fi and other forums, happily posting about the potential benefits of removing the original clock chips in Chord dacs, with more expensive higher spec chips.
> I prefer to trust Robs engineering knowledge, and suspect that any claimed 'improvements' are expectation bias.
> ...


I'll just follow Rob's recommendation and not bother with external clocks.  Rob's DACs are incredibly resistant to jitter anyway.


----------



## adrianm

In case anyone is looking for a power upgrade to their Dave and doesn't want to mess around with the original design (power supply, filters for specific frequencies ,etc), since I am also selling Dave, my choice of upgrade is available here for a great price:
https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/isotek-genesis-one-power-regenerator-with-warranty.35585/


----------



## Somatic

@adrianm you were right. The Dave HP out not in the same league as the Ferrum stack. I recently sold the Ferrum stack and bought a Feliks Envy. Waiting for the Envy still.

I noticed the HP out on the Dave has less note weight, bass quantity has diminished, less punch/slam and treble gets a but hot compared to the Ferrum stack.


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> @adrianm you were right. The Dave HP out not in the same league as the Ferrum stack. I recently sold the Ferrum stack and bought a Feliks Envy. Waiting for the Envy still.
> 
> I noticed the HP out on the Dave has less note weight, bass quantity has diminished, less punch/slam and treble gets a but hot compared to the Ferrum stack.


  Looks like Ferrum is the gateway drug  You got it after me and sold it before  . To be fair, I also placed the order for the HM1 about a month and a half after getting the Oor, but the wait's a PITA .
   Yeah, I agree on all counts. Separation and stage are also a bit better, but the treble is one of the biggest areas of improvement.
   Congrats on the Envy, super curious to hear your impressions.


----------



## Somatic

adrianm said:


> Looks like Ferrum is the gateway drug  You got it after me and sold it before  . To be fair, I also placed the order for the HM1 about a month and a half after getting the Oor, but the wait's a PITA .
> Yeah, I agree on all counts. Separation and stage are also a bit better, but the treble is one of the biggest areas of improvement.
> Congrats on the Envy, super curious to hear your impressions.


Congrats on the HM1. Yes, I keep saying the Ferrum was a gateway drug for me. 

Fuller bass, more punch/slam, slight forward mids, smooth treble and more euphony. Reason I went tubes instead. 

We shall see. I’m new to the tube world but I have several headfiers helping my through the learning curve. Excited to try it out. 

Using Dave HP out with Atriums right now and definitely don’t sound as good as I remember.


----------



## adrianm (Nov 2, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Congrats on the HM1. Yes, I keep saying the Ferrum was a gateway drug for me.
> 
> Fuller bass, more punch/slam, slight forward mids, smooth treble and more euphony. Reason I went tubes instead.
> 
> ...


I get why most Dave owners go tubes, it's a good complement to its thin sound signature. I don't see myself going tubes though. The Lina did all that for me, with even better technicalities to boot. Weirdly enough, I'm a lot more excited about the amp than I am about replacing Dave. Probably because the Lina amp vs Oor showed me what a huge difference the amp makes, even with the Elites.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

@Rob Watts it seems a lot of people here have changed the power supply of the DAVE and other Chord DACs, are you still going to use a switch mode power supply on the Ultima DAC? Or, are you going to use a linear power supply?


----------



## skootb

GuiltyRocker said:


> @Rob Watts it seems a lot of people here have changed the power supply of the DAVE and other Chord DACs, are you still going to use a switch mode power supply on the Ultima DAC? Or, are you going to use a linear power supply?


I don’t think it’s “a lot” at all. The few that did it are just vocal about it


----------



## number1sixerfan

skootb said:


> I don’t think it’s “a lot” at all. The few that did it are just vocal about it



I wouldn't want to downplay the consensus of it being a highly desired upgrade for many in a next iteration of the Dave though. It would certainly top my list, without having even heard any upgraded PSU.


----------



## Rob Watts

GuiltyRocker said:


> @Rob Watts it seems a lot of people here have changed the power supply of the DAVE and other Chord DACs, are you still going to use a switch mode power supply on the Ultima DAC? Or, are you going to use a linear power supply?


You will have to wait and see. But given how negative I have been about the performance of linear PSUs, it would represent a huge volte-face on my behalf. Not that I would worry about that in the slightest - I would eat my proverbial hat in order to get the best musical performance.

The issue here is how you define the best performance; too many audiophiles listen with their eyes or their wallets, or prefer distortions. The best PSU is a car battery - as it has in audio terms zero impedance, zero correlated noise, zero static noise, infinite dynamic currents, and with the appropriate capacitors zero RF noise and of course complete isolation from the mains. My design target is for the PSU solution (whatever that may be) is to be subjectively the same as a car battery.

I am confident with the solutions I have that I will achieve this target.


----------



## Reactcore (Nov 3, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> I am confident with the solutions I have that I will achieve this target.


You did a sublime job with the designs already with noise filtering. Although i will still try a little capacitor tweak on the final Amp stage to give some extra stable current and voltage..

.. i must say now i eliminated outboard RF..i know its not a Dave internal PSU issue to my ears and could easily leave it as it is.


----------



## STR-1

@Rob Watts - With growing expectation that Chord will be able to launch a Rob Watts designed super high end dac in the not too distant future can you say if you are working on designs that will directly drive headphones?


----------



## Ards

Rob Watts said:


> too many audiophiles listen with their eyes or their wallets, or prefer distortions.


Just to gently push back against this.   Blithely setting up the audiophile as a straw man risks missing genuine advances in performance.   Many audiophiles will have decades of listening experience, and couldn't care less about their wallets any more - they are just after best performance, and go wherever their ears tell them that is...  And while recognising all the problems of cognitive and expectation bias etc, we should remain open to the idea that maybe, just maybe, when enough people start heading in one direction there is good reason to take note...


----------



## The Jester

Easiest way to ensure there’s no opportunities for improvement,
Stop looking.


----------



## adrianm

Ards said:


> Just to gently push back against this.   Blithely setting up the audiophile as a straw man risks missing genuine advances in performance.   Many audiophiles will have decades of listening experience, and couldn't care less about their wallets any more - they are just after best performance, and go wherever their ears tell them that is...  And while recognising all the problems of cognitive and expectation bias etc, we should remain open to the idea that maybe, just maybe, when enough people start heading in one direction there is good reason to take note...


Well said  . It also risks alienating part of the market that aren't Chord fanatics.
    I love Dave, it's one of the best dacs out there at any price, there is clearly a lot of clever engineering that went into it to be able to get this performance at this price point(especially 7-8 years ago).
       Is it perfect? No. Is it head and shoulders above everything else? Below its price point, yes imo.
    Above it... you can throw expectation bias out the window and go straight to denial. I found the "everyone else is not even asking the right questions" comment in one interview disheartening to be honest. Especially after auditioning other high end dacs. 
    I'll cut my rant short and leave it at...there's more than one way to skin a cat, and there's a reason why competitors can charge more and not go bankrupt (grossly overpriced as they are). Just like there's a reason why people are not selling their Daves to get a Topping  

   Now the issue I see here is that Chord's answer to this will probably be to just charge more (Choral M-scaler, Ultima Dac coming soon) because their die hard fan base is already buying everything under the sun to improve Dave. It remains to be seen if it will actually address those shortcomings. 
    While my journey was only 5-6 years, not decades, unproven theories and unsubstantiated claims about signal processing are not enough to get me to buy another piece of gear.
    Hearing is believing (Just like DAVE's objective truth is actually based on Rob's subjective listening tests), and using essentially the same rhetoric that Topping is using about Chord with regards to competitors makes me not be interested in having any further conversation. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Rob Watts said:


> You will have to wait and see. But given how negative I have been about the performance of linear PSUs, it would represent a huge volte-face on my behalf. Not that I would worry about that in the slightest - I would eat my proverbial hat in order to get the best musical performance.
> 
> The issue here is how you define the best performance; too many audiophiles listen with their eyes or their wallets, or prefer distortions. The best PSU is a car battery - as it has in audio terms zero impedance, zero correlated noise, zero static noise, infinite dynamic currents, and with the appropriate capacitors zero RF noise and of course complete isolation from the mains. My design target is for the PSU solution (whatever that may be) is to be subjectively the same as a car battery.
> 
> I am confident with the solutions I have that I will achieve this target.


Ahahhahaha, ok I'll wait and see.  What's the window for release?  One year?  Three years?


----------



## GuiltyRocker

The Jester said:


> Easiest way to ensure there’s no opportunities for improvement,
> Stop looking.


Good idea, hahahahahaha


----------



## thePhones

Ards said:


> Just to gently push back against this.   Blithely setting up the audiophile as a straw man risks missing genuine advances in performance.   Many audiophiles will have decades of listening experience, and couldn't care less about their wallets any more - they are just after best performance, and go wherever their ears tell them that is...  And while recognising all the problems of cognitive and expectation bias etc, we should remain open to the idea that maybe, just maybe, when enough people start heading in one direction there is good reason to take note...


Well as a German... I know that it does not always give the best results if people start moving (or marching) in one direction😄
Of course that does not mean that everything that most people do is always wrong, but it is also not the other way around. The last two years have shown me again that people have not changed and still every now and then move in one direction but find them selfs in a worse place then before....but we are just talking audio here, so nobody died by installing a linear PSU (except a Dave or two) 😅


----------



## Somatic

thePhones said:


> Well as a German... I know that it does not always give the best results if people start moving (or marching) in one direction😄
> Of course that does not mean that everything that most people do is always wrong, but it is also not the other way around. The last two years have shown me again that people have not changed and still every now and then move in one direction but find them selfs in a worse place then before....but we are just talking audio here, so nobody died by installing a linear PSU (except a Dave or two) 😅


I'm pretty sure no Dave's died in this process. Very easy install. No soldering.

People like to tinker and try and make things better. Unless you hear a LPS Dave vs stock Dave ... you won't truly know if the LPS Dave fans are delusional or not. Sure Rob says the LPS just adds noise etc but one needs to make their own conclusions. I saw the change as a significant upgrade than stock Dave.


----------



## thePhones

Somatic said:


> I'm pretty sure no Dave's died in this process. Very easy install. No soldering.
> 
> People like to tinker and try and make things better. Unless you hear a LPS Dave vs stock Dave ... you won't truly know if the LPS Dave fans are delusional or not. Sure Rob says the LPS just adds noise etc but one needs to make their own conclusions. I saw the change as a significant upgrade than stock Dave.


I was just saying that it does not mean anything if a lot of people do something. It does not mean you must or should do it. It just means they are doing it.


----------



## Somatic

thePhones said:


> I was just saying that it does not mean anything if a lot of people do something. It does not mean you must or should do it. It just means they are doing it.


Totally. I don't think its needed. Up to the individual.


----------



## sm60

adrianm said:


> I get why most Dave owners go tubes, it's a good complement to its thin sound signature. I don't see myself going tubes though. The Lina did all that for me, with even better technicalities to boot. Weirdly enough, I'm a lot more excited about the amp than I am about replacing Dave. Probably because the Lina amp vs Oor showed me what a huge difference the amp makes, even with the Elites.


I tried going pure digital and solid state for a few years, no vinyl and no tubes. Partly it was because I moved from the east coast to the San Francisco Bay Area and first ended up in a small apartment in the city. Then I bought a much larger 3500 sq ft house an hour south of the city in pretty wine country and continued to be analog free. But it didn’t last. I was clearly suffering serious vinyl and tube withdrawal symptoms! Finally i went back to vinyl and tubes. My current DAC reference is the Lampizator Pacific, which uses a bevy of four directed heated triodes (e.g., 300Bs, or 242s or 45s etc.). I still have my Blu2/Dave in a second all Brit system with Quad 2905s. 

But at the end of the day, I still enjoy vinyl any day over digital at whatever resolution you play it. Even my humble Technics SL-10 linear tracking turntable with a Shure P-mount moving magnet cartridge sounds better to me than any DAC I’ve heard, and I’ve owned a lot of expensive DACs in the past 30 years. Crazy!

Of course, I use an ultra high end ARC Ref Phono 3SE for my vinyl playback, which is a fully balanced tube phono stage that weighs 45 pounds and costs more than the Dave.  But even with a humble Technics turntable and Shure moving magnet, it produces the most luxuriant blissful sounds that neither the Dave nor the Lampizator seem able to do. I can’t figure out why. Dragging a rock through plastic shouldn’t sound better than a high end DAC. Except to my ears it does! 

But let’s not forget that the world’s greatest symphony orchestras use analog instruments still and tune to the principal oboist. If you read about what makes a great oboe player, it’s as much knowing how to make the reeds, a 250 year old practice, as playing the instrument. All our digital wizardry has not succeeded in making digital instruments any match for a Stradivarius violin or a Steinway piano. 

In the world of classical music, analog still rules the day. So it does in my house. But I’ve got thousands of CDs and a lifetime Roon subscription and a Qobuz premium subscription, so I listen to plenty of digital. It just doesn’t move me as much as analog vinyl playback does. Analog is noisier by far and a pain to set up. So is making your own reed pieces to play the oboe each week. You can’t make these tiny wood pieces, you’re not going to be a great oboe player. Ditto with tubes. A pain in some ways compared to solid state. But to my ears, more like the sound of real music. I’m crazy. But if you don’t please yourself, who are you going to please? 😀


----------



## Somatic

sm60 said:


> I tried going pure digital and solid state for a few years, no vinyl and no tubes. Partly it was because I moved from the east coast to the San Francisco Bay Area and first ended up in a small apartment in the city. Then I bought a much larger 3500 sq ft house an hour south of the city in pretty wine country and continued to be analog free. But it didn’t last. I was clearly suffering serious vinyl and tube withdrawal symptoms! Finally i went back to vinyl and tubes. My current DAC reference is the Lampizator Pacific, which uses a bevy of four directed heated triodes (e.g., 300Bs, or 242s or 45s etc.). I still have my Blu2/Dave in a second all Brit system with Quad 2905s.
> 
> But at the end of the day, I still enjoy vinyl any day over digital at whatever resolution you play it. Even my humble Technics SL-10 linear tracking turntable with a Shure P-mount moving magnet cartridge sounds better to me than any DAC I’ve heard, and I’ve owned a lot of expensive DACs in the past 30 years. Crazy!
> 
> ...


Love that analog. Vinyl sounds
So emotive. Love it. My second setup will be all Analog


----------



## Ards

thePhones said:


> Well as a German... I know that it does not always give the best results if people start moving (or marching) in one direction😄


Conflating audiophiles with Nazis?  Ouch!    I don't even think ASR has gone there.  Yet!

But, yes, you make a valid point.  We are only talking anecdotally here about sound improvements we think we hear.  Nobody should blindly accept and follow.  Be sceptical, but open minded at the same time.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

sm60 said:


> I tried going pure digital and solid state for a few years, no vinyl and no tubes. Partly it was because I moved from the east coast to the San Francisco Bay Area and first ended up in a small apartment in the city. Then I bought a much larger 3500 sq ft house an hour south of the city in pretty wine country and continued to be analog free. But it didn’t last. I was clearly suffering serious vinyl and tube withdrawal symptoms! Finally i went back to vinyl and tubes. My current DAC reference is the Lampizator Pacific, which uses a bevy of four directed heated triodes (e.g., 300Bs, or 242s or 45s etc.). I still have my Blu2/Dave in a second all Brit system with Quad 2905s.
> 
> But at the end of the day, I still enjoy vinyl any day over digital at whatever resolution you play it. Even my humble Technics SL-10 linear tracking turntable with a Shure P-mount moving magnet cartridge sounds better to me than any DAC I’ve heard, and I’ve owned a lot of expensive DACs in the past 30 years. Crazy!
> 
> ...


That's nice, to me it's the opposite.  I find vinyl lacks detail in a major way, I have recently listened to a $36k turntable with expensive equipment and speakers and i wasn't moved.   I get that people love the ritual of vinyl and the soft/warm around, to me that doesn't work.  I want my detail and lack of noise, i find that Vinyl also doesn't do the sound stage the way Chord does, and the dynamic range is not even close, i also hate the pops and that constant white noise lurking, sorry not for me, glad you enjoy it.


----------



## thePhones

Ards said:


> We are only talking anecdotally here about sound improvements we think we hear.


This is actually the biggest critique I have for the pro lps brigade (ok, this was the last one 😄)
The described improvements are often so vague like: "it's a big step up", "another level"....so on.
I mean the things said about the differences between Dave to Hugo 2 are so precise that someone interested in upgrading knows exactly what he could expect.
But I am totally honest: I still do not know what exacly changes in sound when it comes to the linear power supplies. I have seen so little about real tangible changes that I can't even say if anything changes at all. Also some hear different changes that are directly contradicting each other. This confusion is exactly what I would expect if you just introduced some coloration which would make everything sound a little bit more vague...which leads to vague descriptions.
Of course I do not want to take away the fun people are having with their mods. If you like it, enjoy it.
But if someone not only claims that he enjoys it more, but argues it is objectively better, then it is open to discussion.

Maybe I have missed some posts...
And I am absolutely open to modifications, my Hugo1 and 2 are modded...


----------



## adrianm

sm60 said:


> But it didn’t last. I was clearly suffering serious vinyl and tube withdrawal symptoms!


As a millenial, i've been blessed with complete ignorange to vinyl and tubes  Too much hassle for me. I barely have time to listen anyway, that's why I want to simplify my chain. If I thought I could handle being locked in to a single sound, I would have gotten the Warwick Aperio. But since i'm a fiddler, I'd rather have gear with tons of options for when I get bored or feel an itch for something different.


----------



## alxw0w

adrianm said:


> But since i'm a fiddler, I'd rather have gear with tons of options for when I get bored or feel an itch for something different.


Then look for amp/dac with tubes.
You would never get borred. 
Of course if you look for some coloration.


----------



## number1sixerfan

thePhones said:


> This is actually the biggest critique I have for the pro lps brigade (ok, this was the last one 😄)
> The described improvements are often so vague like: "it's a big step up", "another level"....so on.
> I mean the things said about the differences between Dave to Hugo 2 are so precise that someone interested in upgrading knows exactly what he could expect.
> But I am totally honest: I still do not know what exacly changes in sound when it comes to the linear power supplies. I have seen so little about real tangible changes that I can't even say if anything changes at all. Also some hear different changes that are directly contradicting each other. This confusion is exactly what I would expect if you just introduced some coloration which would make everything sound a little bit more vague...which leads to vague descriptions.
> ...



I've seen pretty clear main differences identified, but certainly not many at all very in depth impressions/comparisons. I think this is mainly because most people don't have the ability to compare side by side given the process of upgrading (you would need two Daves). So I actually really respect that people don't try to create in-depth impressions that they cannot fully validate. For me, the consensus is very strong that it's a general upgrade, but I also think the impact of better power that's very easily observed in comparison of the headphone amp of the Dave to much better headphone amps with highly capable power supplies is also (absolutely acknowledge the other factors of external amps that can also contribute). 

I just think we personally do ourselves a disservice by acting as if Dave as is, is some sort of perfect product that shouldn't have aspects of it upgraded. For me, in example, if there are no upgrades to the PSU nor an ability to update the product software updates vs. physical modification or replacement, I'm very likely not going to be in the market for it. So it's best that we call out some of these things now for future consideration--whether any of it is implemented or not. (absolutely acknowledge that someone else's list may be totally different)


----------



## Rob Watts

STR-1 said:


> @Rob Watts - With growing expectation that Chord will be able to launch a Rob Watts designed super high end dac in the not too distant future can you say if you are working on designs that will directly drive headphones?



It will drive headphones. Kind of unthinkable not too...



Ards said:


> Just to gently push back against this.   Blithely setting up the audiophile as a straw man risks missing genuine advances in performance.   Many audiophiles will have decades of listening experience, and couldn't care less about their wallets any more - they are just after best performance, and go wherever their ears tell them that is...  And while recognising all the problems of cognitive and expectation bias etc, we should remain open to the idea that maybe, just maybe, when enough people start heading in one direction there is good reason to take note...



Sure many audiophiles go wherever their ears tell them - but many do not. There is always the issue that more expensive must mean better performance, or that a successfully promoted and established brand automatically has better products. Cognitive, expectation biases and placebo are very real things,



adrianm said:


> Well said  . It also risks alienating part of the market that aren't Chord fanatics.
> I love Dave, it's one of the best dacs out there at any price, there is clearly a lot of clever engineering that went into it to be able to get this performance at this price point(especially 7-8 years ago).
> Is it perfect? No. Is it head and shoulders above everything else? Below its price point, yes imo.
> Above it... you can throw expectation bias out the window and go straight to denial. I found the "everyone else is not even asking the right questions" comment in one interview disheartening to be honest. Especially after auditioning other high end dacs.
> ...



So if the designers intent is to create a warm, soft dense sound - then there are a huge number of ways to do this.

If the designers intent is to create a sharp, impressive, analytical sound then there are a huge number of other ways to do this - a huge number of differently skinned cats.

But if you want to re-create the original sound of non amplified music perfectly, then their is indeed only one path to do this - only one correct way to skin a cat. And other DAC designers are not even asking the right questions to do this...



GuiltyRocker said:


> Ahahhahaha, ok I'll wait and see.  What's the window for release?  One year?  Three years?



When it's done - however long it takes.


----------



## Reactcore

Rob Watts said:


> But if you want to re-create the original sound of non amplified music perfectly, then their is indeed only one path to do this


I wonder if the recording industry will eventually natively produce and release 768k or higher sampling rates and more than 24bit depth..
The evolution of tech is far enough to do this.

Its also a way to come closer to the original sound before ADC. But that doesnt change the enormous amount of 'low res' music that we have..


----------



## SteveHulk

... and that's past 23,000 posts on this healthy thread.

I just love it.


----------



## LucyWu

Reactcore said:


> I wonder if the recording industry will eventually natively produce and release 768k or higher sampling rates and more than 24bit depth..
> The evolution of tech is far enough to do this.
> 
> Its also a way to come closer to the original sound before ADC. But that doesnt change the enormous amount of 'low res' music that we have..


Very unlikely. Most professional studios use dacs that top out at 192khz/24bit. Most artists use material generated in laptops on DAWs - most of which don't stretch above that.

The files at 16fs are very large and pro-audio doesn't believe they are worth it. All my music is stored at 24bit/16fs, with eq baked in. I'm well over 16terabits and my library is not huge compared to many on here. Most people just download or stream on their phones - we'll need a quantum leap in data rates and storage technology before 16fs becomes even technically viable. And commercially? I don't see it beyond our little fringe consumption model.

And audio production is heading off into multichannel/spacial territory.

Rob Watts will probably argue redbook or at most 4fs will suffice if your reconstruction filter is properly done.


----------



## STR-1 (Nov 5, 2022)

Rob Watts said:


> It will drive headphones. Kind of unthinkable not too...


Thanks. Just wanted to check that it wasn’t going to be a high-end Qutest, which wouldn’t be of any use to me.


----------



## Reactcore (Nov 5, 2022)

LucyWu said:


> And audio production is heading off into multichannel/spacial territory.



I guess youre right.. its only the few audiophiles that would chase after it.. the rest of the world accepted the 'digital glared' sound they get out of their phones. Why would record companies change.

As for multichannel.. i still avoid it cause of they still use Dolby compression to transport/file it. While its by long not needed anymore. Just..say.. 4 lossless full spectrum channels would sound so much better.
I would add another Dave to my setup then😄


----------



## GuiltyRocker

I am hoping that at some point Chord releases an Última DAC with no preamp section and no headphones section either, some of us with good preamps and speakers don't need those features, that can bring down the price and get into high end territory.


----------



## adrianm

GuiltyRocker said:


> I am hoping that at some point Chord releases an Última DAC with no preamp section and no headphones section either, some of us with good preamps and speakers don't need those features, that can bring down the price and get into high end territory.


like dCS did


----------



## Somatic (Nov 5, 2022)

Rob confirming again that Optical is the way to go for input on the solo Dave.



6:40


----------



## Hiker816

Somatic said:


> Rob confirming again that Optical is the way to go for output on the solo Dave.
> 
> 
> 
> 6:40



You mean input, right?


----------



## Reactcore

Somatic said:


> Rob confirming again that Optical is the way to go for input on the solo Dave.
> 
> 
> 
> 6:40



Just amazing after 7 years Dave is still talked about as being a just released product.

Means its rock solid and near perfect.


----------



## adrianm

Somatic said:


> Rob confirming again that Optical is the way to go for input on the solo Dave.
> 
> 
> 
> 6:40



That we can agree on  Problem is if you want to upsample with Hqp, then you need the Src-Dx...


----------



## Mr X

Somatic said:


> Rob confirming again that Optical is the way to go for input on the solo Dave.
> 
> 
> 
> 6:40




What’s his view on source into Mscaler before BNC to Dave?  Not optical then?


----------



## adrianm

Mr X said:


> What’s his view on source into Mscaler before BNC to Dave?  Not optical then?


I used to use Optical with the M-scaler and a battery. Only way I could stand it.


----------



## saudio7

I am using USB with mscaler it is better, but it should be clean and this is not cheap, so optical is good compromise.


----------



## musicinmymind

saudio7 said:


> I am using USB with mscaler it is better, but it should be clean and this is not cheap, so optical is good compromise.



My laptop has both optical and usd, cheap USB sounds better than optical for me.

what is your USB setup?


----------



## saudio7 (Nov 6, 2022)

From Auralic streamer to Innuos Phoenix, from time to time I connect iGalvanic in front of Phoenix, but no difference, I still have it from past USB upgrades.
For optical good cable is needed, and for me WW Nova was better then Super Nova reaching higher transmission speed.


----------



## Powersquat

I'm given to understand Chord  plan to raise prices significantly on the 1st December, right across the range, with the exception of Mojo 2 and Poly, sadly a sign of the times.


----------



## adrianm

Powersquat said:


> I'm given to understand Chord  plan to raise prices significantly on the 1st December, right across the range, with the exception of Mojo 2 and Poly, sadly a sign of the times.


Yep, which is my Dave is a great deal


----------



## LucyWu

There's 5 or 6 Dave's for sale in the UK on Ebay right now, nothing below £6k but a couple of hopefuls around £7k. A couple of them have been hanging around for long enough to be smelling ripe by now.

Sign of the times?


----------



## adrianm (Nov 8, 2022)

LucyWu said:


> There's 5 or 6 Dave's for sale in the UK on Ebay right now, nothing below £6k but a couple of hopefuls around £7k. A couple of them have been hanging around for long enough to be smelling ripe by now.
> 
> Sign of the times?


Sadly, It seems like at least some of them are downgrading or selling due to financial reasons instead of the usual upgrade or different flavours. Not sure what taxes are from the Uk to the EU, but I imagine they have better pricing.
   I'm selling my entire setup, both headphones included, and starting from scratch. I wouldn't count on prices going down a lot more considering the price increases and inflation. And yet I get spammed with lowball offers...


----------



## griff500

If retail is going up again then that should help used prices somewhat.

@adrianm - the insultingly lowball offers are probably from people who can't even afford what they have offered...  

I am considering selling a large part of my system at the moment and simplifying it so that I can get a couple of older motorbikes to add to the garage while I'm still 'young' enough to be able to swing my leg over them.


----------



## sm60 (Nov 8, 2022)

GuiltyRocker said:


> That's nice, to me it's the opposite.  I find vinyl lacks detail in a major way, I have recently listened to a $36k turntable with expensive equipment and speakers and i wasn't moved.   I get that people love the ritual of vinyl and the soft/warm around, to me that doesn't work.  I want my detail and lack of noise, i find that Vinyl also doesn't do the sound stage the way Chord does, and the dynamic range is not even close, i also hate the pops and that constant white noise lurking, sorry not for me, glad you enjoy it.


Interesting. I’ve never once felt digital captured the dynamic range of an orchestra. Having been to thousands of concerts over the past 35 years, and owning several thousand CDs and SACDs in my house, if there’s a digital recording that captures the sound of an oboe in a concert hall, I haven’t heard it. Mostly what I hear is a pale imitation of the real thing. Mathematically speaking, since I used to be a grad student in ECE and have taken plenty of grad courses in DSP and information theory, this is not surprising to me. To think that the sound of an oboe, which lies perhaps  -40-50 dB down in volume from the full dynamic range of an orchestra can be captured with any fidelity is wishful thinking. You have hardly the bits needed at that volume for any resolution. PCM is inherently flawed and now owning  and having heard thousands of high resolution recordings, nothing has changed my mind on that score. To achieve a true breakthrough in digital reproduction, you have to understand human hearing and all its strengths and limitations. The Fletcher Munson curve should be at the foundation of digital encoding. Don‘t waste bits at frequencies  we cannot hear and reserve them for where we have maximum acuity.

From a marketing standpoint, vinyl has made a stunning comeback and now greatly outsells digital media by an order of magnitude (not streaming, where the real money is made streaming low bit rate MP3s, but physical media).  Are all these people buying vinyl delusional? Do they have this weird fetish for decrepit old technology? I mean, you don’t see people shelling out megabucks to buy floppy disk drives. Vinyl, like tubes, survives and thrives, for the very simple reason that for the cognoscenti, the people who deeply care about sound, it will always remain a primary mode of listening to music. All these folks, including me, own plenty of high end digital. I listen to digital all the time. I just don’t consider it a very satisfactory way of reproducing music at any fidelity approaching live concert music. Just like I don’t consider any solid state equipment I have owned, and I’ve owned plenty of mega buck  solid state units from Krell, Levinson, Classe etc., to be remotely as good as the best tube amplifiers I have owned. Solid state is convenient, yes, and can be made tiny and run cool with class D and PWM technology. But it does not translate into musical realism for me. Plenty  of people feel like I do. That’s enough to keep these “decrepit” technologies thriving!


----------



## Powersquat

adrianm said:


> Sadly, It seems like at least some of them are downgrading or selling due to financial reasons.



I think you're correct, I'm in the process of buying a used pre-amp, the seller only purchased it a couple of months ago, a change of circumstances is unfortunately forcing the sale.


----------



## mike1953

adrianm said:


> Sadly, It seems like at least some of them are downgrading or selling due to financial reasons instead of the usual upgrade or different flavours. Not sure what taxes are from the Uk to the EU, but I imagine they have better pricing.
> I'm selling my entire setup, both headphones included, and starting from scratch. I wouldn't count on prices going down a lot more considering the price increases and inflation. And yet I get spammed with lowball offers...


I've had my DAVE listed for a while now (here and on eBay) with a few desultory offers and a couple of close but not quite there offers. However, the more I've been listening to the DAVE the more I've realised what a "bargain" it is (relatively) and that anything else I bought with the money from the DAVE would be too much of a downgrade. So, to cut to the chase, I'm taking the listings down today and I'm looking forward to spending more time with this awesome piece of kit.


----------



## adrianm

mike1953 said:


> I've had my DAVE listed for a while now (here and on eBay) with a few desultory offers and a couple of close but not quite there offers. However, the more I've been listening to the DAVE the more I've realised what a "bargain" it is (relatively) and that anything else I bought with the money from the DAVE would be too much of a downgrade. So, to cut to the chase, I'm taking the listings down today and I'm looking forward to spending more time with this awesome piece of kit.


Yeah, I completely agree. I have the same feeling. Unless I get a fair offer, I'd rather just keep it. For me it's obvious there's no bettering it without significant additional costs.


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## SteveHulk (Nov 11, 2022)

adrianm said:


> Yeah, I completely agree. I have the same feeling. Unless I get a fair offer, I'd rather just keep it. For me it's obvious there's no bettering it without significant additional costs.


Stick to your guns 👍🏼

There are surely people watching it hoping you'll drop the price through the floor.

For me, the fact that you are a respected voice on this forum and thread is value added.

If I were buying, I'd rather go to someone like you than to some unknown who might be just trying to flip a DAVE and neither knows nor cares what might have happened to it previously.


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## adrianm

SteveHulk said:


> Stick to your guns 👍🏼
> 
> There are surely people watching it hoping you'll drop the price through the floor.
> 
> ...


Thanks Steve, that's kind of you to say. I'm not sure if respected is what people have in mind (polarizing for sure ), but I'll take it!   
   I'm the same way. The fact that I've been questioning my sanity since putting it up for sale speaks volumes to how good it is. I really don't need much to close my listing as well lol.


----------



## DJW50

Speaking as someone carefully watching all DAVE's that appear on e-bay and having made a few low ball offers just to test a sellers resolve. I liken it to having recently sold one of my vehicles, okay I just wasn't using the vehicle and now it's gone I don't miss it and of course the cash looks good on my balance but it's not doing anything.
Being old enough to have lived through a few recessions I wonder if a few more may come on to the market in the next year, I may just be able to help someone out by buying their DAVE, in all honesty I can't really see the price dropping through the floor but of course I can only live in hope.


----------



## adrianm

DJW50 said:


> Speaking as someone carefully watching all DAVE's that appear on e-bay and having made a few low ball offers just to test a sellers resolve. I liken it to having recently sold one of my vehicles, okay I just wasn't using the vehicle and now it's gone I don't miss it and of course the cash looks good on my balance but it's not doing anything.
> Being old enough to have lived through a few recessions I wonder if a few more may come on to the market in the next year, I may just be able to help someone out by buying their DAVE, in all honesty I can't really see the price dropping through the floor but of course I can only live in hope.


I don't see it dropping either, especially with as sizeable price increase coming next month and the M-scaler in a few months after that . That said, I'm a reasonable guy


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## DJW50 (Nov 12, 2022)

adrianm said:


> I don't see it dropping either, especially with as sizeable price increase coming next month and the M-scaler in a few months after that . That said, I'm a reasonable guy


Nor do I, but having said that and bearing in mind that we all have to make a living  I've been very surprised at what you are offered as PX for some of my stuff in fact a fair few What moments have occurred where I've decided I'd rather keep it than PX it.
So of course I have to tread the path of offering more than PX and of course having the cash to back my offer up and also what  has been mentioned on previous posts about people making silly offers with no real ability to actually come up with the money, let me assure you there are genuine buyers out there with the cash to back it up it's just that maybe the sellers expectations are out of kilter with what is a decent deal.
Some day I will own a DAVE but one things for sure I won't be buying new nor will I pay what I consider over the odds for something. Tricky.
In all honesty I can't see the price increase really influencing secondhand prices but I may be wrong.

Just thought I'd add this too, as far as not buying new means I can put part of my budget towards an after market power supply like the Farad. So if the stars align I'll have a DAVE and an aftermarket power supply for around the retail price of a new DAVE.


----------



## griff500

DJW50 said:


> In all honesty I can't see the price increase really influencing secondhand prices but I may be wrong.


I would expect an increase in the price of new units to support used values.


----------



## adrianm

DJW50 said:


> Some day I will own a DAVE but one things for sure I won't be buying new


Starting to see why this is a good idea lol.


----------



## adrianm

adrianm said:


> Yeah, they're downright evil. The clock makes such a difference, I'm sure their dacs are limited without it by design.


Slight correction to this, checked the jitter measurements and they're actually great, so it's not that apparently. Whatever their architecture, it works.


----------



## F208Frank (Nov 11, 2022)

I just want to say, today I randomly thought about how I owned the DAVE, brand new for few months, power supply failed within 1 year, and warranty result was that it was not chords fault but mine (some form of neglect on my part) when I just unopened unit brand new, placed it on rack, and powered on...

Just thinking about this pisses me off to this very day... and to think I was a chord fan boy for a while too makes me squirm.

Just felt like it was a slap in the face when warranty did not honor their part when it was within a single year too... 5 years my butt.

I came back to state this because I thought I was a one off isolated incident but my dealer had to reignite my anger today just now telling me that many chord claims are being denied and this brought me to fumes hearing this, as I now know I was just part of that large bucket of unsolved claims.


----------



## miketlse

F208Frank said:


> I just want to say, today I randomly thought about how I owned the DAVE, brand new for few months, power supply failed within 1 year, and warranty result was that it was not chords fault but mine (some form of neglect on my part) when I just unopened unit brand new, placed it on rack, and powered on...
> 
> Just thinking about this pisses me off to this very day... and to think I was a chord fan boy for a while too makes me squirm.
> 
> ...


You make some serious claims there.
Are you able to provide more context for them, which could help other Chord owners to not enter the same accusation of 'neglect' scenario?


----------



## Reactcore (Nov 12, 2022)

F208Frank said:


> I just want to say, today I randomly thought about how I owned the DAVE, brand new for few months, power supply failed within 1 year, and warranty result was that it was not chords fault but mine (some form of neglect on my part) when I just unopened unit brand new, placed it on rack, and powered on...
> 
> Just thinking about this pisses me off to this very day... and to think I was a chord fan boy for a while too makes me squirm.
> 
> ...


Weird its the first bad service comment i read.

The last service read was a member here who had a blown capacitor while showing in this thread his opened Dave for a Farad modification that would certainly mean warranty loss, still Chord repaired his board without charge.

I previously bought a Questyle CMA400i DAC/Amp after reading rave after rave about its quality. When i had my unit the air in its thread became toxic as Questyle's service became non existant ..users got zero reply to service requests let alone get warranty.. some even never saw their units back after sending in..

Still to this day i love my unit as i dont blame the engineers that created it.

.. but ofcourse i understand your point..


----------



## adrianm

F208Frank said:


> I just want to say, today I randomly thought about how I owned the DAVE, brand new for few months, power supply failed within 1 year, and warranty result was that it was not chords fault but mine (some form of neglect on my part) when I just unopened unit brand new, placed it on rack, and powered on...
> 
> Just thinking about this pisses me off to this very day... and to think I was a chord fan boy for a while too makes me squirm.
> 
> ...


Not sure what the situation is over there, but this does go against everything I've read so far, and my personal experience. No issues with Dave, but they did replace a weirdly acting Mojo within a week. The power supply itself is so cheap and so easy to replace (as evidenced by others), I can't imagine a world where that behavior would make business sense.
    Not sure what kind of neglect could lead to ruining a smps.


----------



## hmartin (Nov 12, 2022)

I think we should be careful what is a bad dealer, bad distributer and what is Chords fault. I had the bad IR window in msc. After more than 1 year I had not gotten help, dealer was blaming distributer who was blaming Chord. I asked John Franks about the delay situation a few day later a new IR window arrived in the mail and now there is a new distributer (unknown if this was related to my case).

Edit: Just to be clear, I dont know if the original delay was due to the dealer, the distributer or Chord


----------



## Ragnar-BY

hmartin said:


> we should be careful what is a bad dealer, bad distributer and what is Chords fault


+1

I know a guy who was told by the dealer that he would have to pay to repair his Hugo 2. After direct contact with Chord, it turned out that Chord would fix it for free. The DAC was repaired (new board and battery), owner didn’t pay anything.

No idea why this is happening.


----------



## JTbbb

I bought my dealers ex demo Dave. After a few months there was a slight ticking noise from the rh channel, just like a tube warming up, which disappeared when it did warm up! It went to Chord for repair and on it’s journey back to my dealer the couriers lost it! Chord supplied a brand new one as replacement.


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## F208Frank (Nov 12, 2022)

miketlse said:


> You make some serious claims there.
> Are you able to provide more context for them, which could help other Chord owners to not enter the same accusation of 'neglect' scenario?


Yeah some serious claims for sure, I do not know how to help other owners avoid "neglect" because I baby the hell out of everything I own.

All I know is that my dealer also mentioned to me that he has many warranty claims being denied as well, imagine the shock I had when my personal unit failed within a year, but not only that, get denied warranty claim on a over 10K plus product (back then the retail was not 14k though)

They wanted to charge about 2 to 3k to fix product, which I was forced to pay, but as I was about to pay it, I told my dealer to just buy it off me (of course at heavy HEAVY discount) and I moved on with extreme bitter feelings and never looked back.

Regarding Chord honoring their future warranty claims, I think they will try to when reading posts like these expressing discontent, or they will not stay in business. 

I am not about to give another chance to try to find out. Already a 10k plus unit failing within 1 year is annoying enough, to be denied the claim was extremely upsetting.


----------



## miketlse

F208Frank said:


> Yeah some serious claims for sure, I do not know how to help other owners avoid "neglect" because I baby the hell out of everything I own.
> 
> All I know is that my dealer also mentioned to me that he has many warranty claims being denied as well, imagine the shock I had when my personal unit failed within a year, but not only that, get denied warranty claim on a over 10K plus product (back then the retail was not 14k though)
> 
> ...


Did you ever get any feedback about what was faulty with your Dave?


----------



## griff500

I wonder if there was anything to say this was Chord and not actually the dealer.

It’s pretty much the opposite of anything else I have seen online.


----------



## kawhia

Does anyone still spin CDs? I am thinking about going back to owning a CD transport after buying a Roon license and streaming my music for the past three years. 
My question: would you rather buy a transport only and connect it to DAVE, or buy a player that includes a DAC? Any recommendations?


----------



## F208Frank

miketlse said:


> Did you ever get any feedback about what was faulty with your Dave?


They just said my power supply fried and somehow it was my fault.

Now sure there could be a small chance my dealer was just pulling my chain but given that years has passed and suddenly out of no where my dealer reminded me recent that he currently has many chord claims that are unsolved and denied, it leads me to believe that most likely it was not dealer neglect few years back.


----------



## miketlse

kawhia said:


> Does anyone still spin CDs? I am thinking about going back to owning a CD transport after buying a Roon license and streaming my music for the past three years.
> My question: would you rather buy a transport only and connect it to DAVE, or buy a player that includes a DAC? Any recommendations?


Don't know about the DAVE, but I have found using a Bluray player as an optical input to Mojo and Hugo2, can sound better than streaming for some music.
I think Shanling announced at one of the recent canjams that they will start shipping a transport in a few months time.
Maybe not in the Blu2 class, but I think they didn't mention specs or price in more depth.


----------



## zen87192

kawhia said:


> Does anyone still spin CDs? I am thinking about going back to owning a CD transport after buying a Roon license and streaming my music for the past three years.
> My question: would you rather buy a transport only and connect it to DAVE, or buy a player that includes a DAC? Any recommendations?


Yes. Regularly. I’m currently using an ‘old Skool’ Pioneer PD-S904 Stable Platter which serves me well. Connected via Optical. If I had my way again, I’d choose a pure transport from Audiolab, either a CDT 8000 or the newly released 9000 series.


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## DJW50 (Nov 12, 2022)

kawhia said:


> Does anyone still spin CDs? I am thinking about going back to owning a CD transport after buying a Roon license and streaming my music for the past three years.
> My question: would you rather buy a transport only and connect it to DAVE, or buy a player that includes a DAC? Any recommendations?


I've been using a Cyrus XR Signature transport for some time and it's good. With the benefit of hindsight I'd have bought the Chord CD player with the built in M Scaler. Don't think there is any point buying a CD player with a DAC unless like me you have an old school HDCD collection and need a player that re-plays HDCD's


----------



## musicinmymind

I have similar experiences with repair of Mojo 1 as well, here in Dubai. My Mojo stopped charging and when I contact Chord they point me to Dubai Audio local shop for repair.

Issue with main board was identified and I paid USD 125 for replacement. Even after 3 months of payment it not done. It may not be issue from Chord side, but still if unit breaks, there are rumbles ahead.

My experience is still worst with Astell Kern, they do not respond any mail, I have AK240 as paper weight for past 4 years.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

kawhia said:


> Does anyone still spin CDs? I am thinking about going back to owning a CD transport after buying a Roon license and streaming my music for the past three years.


I do and there is a difference between an actual CD and the data grabbed from this CD and played through Roon 😇 This was true with mDAVE and this is still true with Holo May. Unfortunately, there are a lot of recordings that were badly mastered or even never released on CD. So I use Roon for modern hi-res classical recordings, and CDs for my favorite rock albums.



kawhia said:


> My question: would you rather buy a transport only and connect it to DAVE, or buy a player that includes a DAC? Any recommendations?



Get a good CD transport. I use Rockna Wavedream NET (CD transport + network transport in one box) and love it. Also I had very good experience with PS Audio PerfectWave SACD, which plays both CDs and SACDs.


----------



## simorag

*Eastern contaminations and sensuous suggestions*

A beautiful, exhilarating, acrobatic trip over the Balcans, to Instanbul, through outlandish Russian landscapes up way east until Japan (the last disc, from Three Blind Mice, is a true audiophile wizardry, unfortunately not available via streaming, but well worth the hassle of getting it via amazon.jp or equivalent).


----------



## Reactcore

Today was headphone comparing day😁

I visited the always inviting Rick and Tijs Buijs of Ears unlimited in Delft. I wanted to hear the DC expanse next to Stealth and others on my Choral scaled Dave.





Also wanted to try Meze's new 109pro
It really didnt disappoint specially considering its price




And ofcourse Susvara aside HEKse with and without some amps in between like the latest Violectric




Plenty to choose from




My day passed far too fast lol
Thanks Rick for always being there..


----------



## adrianm

Reactcore said:


> Today was headphone comparing day😁
> 
> I visited the always inviting Rick and Tijs Buijs of Ears unlimited in Delft. I wanted to hear the DC expanse next to Stealth and others on my Choral scaled Dave.
> 
> ...


So where are the impressions?


----------



## Powersquat

griff500 said:


> I would expect an increase in the price of new units to support used values.



I do hope you're correct, However I believe sales of new Dave units have waned in recent months, as has already been mentioned in an earlier post there are a number of pre owned Dave's currently advertised on eBay.

With the current cost of living situation and with the UK economy almost certainly about to slip into recession, I suspect high end HiFi equipment will


kawhia said:


> Does anyone still spin CDs? I am thinking about going back to owning a CD transport after buying a Roon license and streaming my music for the past three years.
> My question: would you rather buy a transport only and connect it to DAVE, or buy a player that includes a DAC? Any recommendations?




I'm a bit of a Luddite  and exclusively listen to physical cd's. Honestly I believe a separate transport and dac is the best way to go.

I couldn't be more pleased with my PS Audio Perfect Wave transport pair with the MScaler and Dave in my 2 channel set up .


----------



## griff500

Powersquat said:


> I do hope you're correct, However I believe sales of new Dave units have waned in recent months, as has already been mentioned in an earlier post there are a number of pre owned Dave's currently advertised on eBay.
> 
> With the current cost of living situation and with the UK economy almost certainly about to slip into recession, I suspect high end HiFi equipment will


A search for ‘chord dave review’ shows ASR in position 3 with the opening line in the snippet that “It is bested easily by DACs at $150”. That sort of thing probably doesn’t help. I hope people are not fooled by such nonsense as they’d be missing out on a great DAC.


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## iDesign (Nov 12, 2022)

griff500 said:


> A search for ‘chord dave review’ shows ASR in position 3 with the opening line in the snippet that “It is bested easily by DACs at $150”. That sort of thing probably doesn’t help. I hope people are not fooled by such nonsense as they’d be missing out on a great DAC.


Indeed it was damaging. After the review was posted, several DAVE’s were listed on various classifieds sites. And I imagine that combined with the economy and price increase, DAVE sales are sharply down. Google indexes the review at the top of results and it doesn’t help that Chord and its dealers aren’t leveraging search ads. I wish Chord would consider firmware updates for the DAVE as a way to spur interest, reduce the secondhand market, increase resale values, and create affordable software upgrades as consumer spending declines.


----------



## Reactcore

adrianm said:


> So where are the impressions?


Ok ill try to write my opinion in order of what i got on my head.. remember as a 8 year almost solely HD800 user im used to that as old walked in shoes and its the type of signature im after.

Starting with the Expanse.. first i noticed it needs quite a bit more volume to play as loud as my 800s about 8-10dB more. It shared alot of the Stealth sound.. very accurate polite and flat throughout the frequency range but against my expectations i couldnt find myself being attracted to its bit too intimide sound.. even being a (semi) open back design. The 800's have more sparkle giving a lively appearance

It might also comes to my dual optic linked setup having no RF so sounding 'softer' with no sharp edge.

In terms of bass it equals my 800 having the mid bass being slightly more lifted compared
(or rather 800's have midbass a bit recessed)

In terms of fit it feels heavier on my head as ofc its metal housing but not like i couldnt get used to.

Next was Meze's 109pro.. it is smaller then i thought. But it was a delight fit on my head light and perfect clamping force.

Oh boy this is a easy drive, about 15dB less needed on the volume dial compared to 800's

It sounded to me quite engaging with good stage approaching 800 level, nice deep going low end and forward trebble.. which complements my setup. I think on more 'digital' sounding setups it might could be too much but for me it gave a good balance. Unlike the 99 classic which i found a bit lifeless (dull) sounding.

Then the Meze Elite was connected.. it presented a more fuller warmer sound wrapping itself around my head.. with refinement and good micro details but here i again missed that sparkle in the high frequency and staging  it needs about the same volume as my 800's to drive.

Then i tried a Grado.. the RS1X, its amazingly light weight. I thought its on ear topology would give me wear fatigue but its so light with few clamping force it sits quite nicely.

Soundwise it has a real mid -lowmid forward sound.. but the wood in the cups gives increddible nice synergy with acoustic instruments like guitars and violins. It is quite inviting and i notice why users have grados as compliment to other phones.. its easy to drive.
I didnt miss the stage actually here.

Next i got a Grado white edition on my head.
Hmm my impression was next to the RS1X it sounded thin.. missing bass.. further although having bigger over ear cups it weights the same as the RS1.

After this a HEKv2 was on my head (again) it has my sound signature like 800's but this time it had someting about its high frequency response that didnt worked out this time.. it had a 'metallic' tint to it.. swapping between this and the Meze Elite i found myself looking for the middle way between those.
The HEK is quite easy to drive.

Then a Susvare entered the scene.
Hm oof i have to dial Dave's volume to around 0dB and im not a loud listener ..its no joke it needs lots of voltage to start coming alive.. but this is the first headphone i was thinking of being a upgrade to my 800's.
Bass is reaching deeper giving feelable rumble. Mids are nicely balanced ..not calling all attention and the tiniest details are clearly hearable giving fine texture to the instruments showing their made and identities.
This is a fast driver response.

Now lets add a Amp in between ..this time a
Violectric HPA V222. It gave the mid bass more texture compared to Dave's direct amp out. Having a bit more control over Sus's drivers. It makes indeed a more pleasurable listen at the cost of a tiny bit transparency.

This brings me to my next modification of Dave's amp section by adding the extra capacitance on the OP stage.. but that will be added to my scaler thread later.

In the end of the day i still find my old HD800's a strong contender specially with a RF free MDave.. but they will certainly be complemented by new phones where Susvara's are first in line.. for now..


----------



## jlbrach

iDesign said:


> Indeed it was damaging. After the review was posted, several DAVE’s were listed on various classifieds sites. And I imagine that combined with the economy and price increase, DAVE sales are sharply down. Google indexes the review at the top of results and it doesn’t help that Chord and its dealers aren’t leveraging search ads. I wish Chord would consider firmware updates for the DAVE as a way to spur interest, reduce the secondhand market, increase resale values, and create affordable software upgrades as consumer spending declines.


so you are telling me that somebody who already owns a dave and has experienced it firsthand would somehow decide to sell it because an utterly rodiculous website writes a review suggesting that it can be bested by a 150 dollar DAC...these people shouldnt be dabbling in such high end equipment to begin with...I highly doubt anyone would sell their dave due to such nonsense


----------



## iDesign

jlbrach said:


> so you are telling me that somebody who already owns a dave and has experienced it firsthand would somehow decide to sell it because an utterly rodiculous website writes a review suggesting that it can be bested by a 150 dollar DAC...these people shouldnt be dabbling in such high end equipment to begin with...I highly doubt anyone would sell their dave due to such nonsense


It may partially explain the timing and increase in listings. In fact, I’m considering selling my DAVE+Blu Mk II before resale values bottom out.


----------



## jlbrach

iDesign said:


> It may partially explain the timing and increase in listings. In fact, I’m considering selling my DAVE+Blu Mk II before resale values bottom out.


and buying a 150 dollar DAC? lol


----------



## iDesign

jlbrach said:


> and buying a 150 dollar DAC? lol


No.


----------



## griff500

iDesign said:


> After the review was posted, several DAVE’s were listed on various classifieds sites.


Perhaps unrelated though. Mine sounded just as good after the review as it did before. 😉😂


----------



## number1sixerfan

iDesign said:


> Indeed it was damaging. After the review was posted, several DAVE’s were listed on various classifieds sites. And I imagine that combined with the economy and price increase, DAVE sales are sharply down. Google indexes the review at the top of results and it doesn’t help that Chord and its dealers aren’t leveraging search ads. I wish Chord would consider firmware updates for the DAVE as a way to spur interest, reduce the secondhand market, increase resale values, and create affordable software upgrades as consumer spending declines.



I get the potential impact to resell value that could factor into driving some people to sell sooner rather than later, but I think the current economic factors are more at play here than anything. Especially considering if someone picked up a Dave second hand pre-pandemic at a decent price and the going rates now. But in general, there's always an uptick of expensive gear for sale when times are tough economically.


----------



## Powersquat

Powersquat said:


> I





griff500 said:


> A search for ‘chord dave review’ shows ASR in position 3 with the opening line in the snippet that “It is bested easily by DACs at $150”. That sort of thing probably doesn’t help. I hope people are not fooled by such nonsense as they’d be missing out on a great DAC.



I agree, for anyone not familiar with the Dave, or indeed any of Chord's recent dac offerings, could I suppose be influenced by the ASR review, but surely anyone serious about spending £10,000 on a dac isn't going to rely on a single online review, particularly a review that is completely at odds with pretty much every other review of the Dave.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

griff500 said:


> A search for ‘chord dave review’ shows ASR in position 3 with the opening line in the snippet that “It is bested easily by DACs at $150”. That sort of thing probably doesn’t help. I hope people are not fooled by such nonsense as they’d be missing out on a great DAC.


People who take ASR seriously don't deserve good music 🤣

@alxw0w  and I once listened out of curiosity to a cheap Chinese DAC (brand with "high SINAD" highly praised by ASR) and compared it directly to DAVE and a very basic vinyl setup. Because the system was relatively simple (speakers in an acoustically untreated room), it was impossible to critically listen to soundstage depth, transparency, and other audiophile stuff. BUT! Difference was absolutely obvious from the first seconds. Right after vinyl Chinese DAC sounded like as if it weren't playing music, but just consistently and monotonously emitting a set of sounds. In contrast to vinyl, it was awful. No sense of rhythm, no harmony, no desire to listen further.

To be honest, then I mentally prepared that DAVE would also be powerless compared to a cheap turntable, but no. DAVE played just as rhythmically, melodicly and captivatingly as the vinyl record. Technically it was very different, but emotionally - just right there.

For all that, I happily used such a Chinese DAC for the Playstation. It reproduces sounds very well, why can't it play music as well - hell knows.


----------



## ufospls2 (Nov 13, 2022)

Welp, I'm back on the DAVE train. Should be here this week coming. Looking forward to revisiting it since I sold my first one back in 2018, almost 4 years ago exactly.


----------



## sm60 (Nov 13, 2022)

Powersquat said:


> I agree, for anyone not familiar with the Dave, or indeed any of Chord's recent dac offerings, could I suppose be influenced by the ASR review, but surely anyone serious about spending £10,000 on a dac isn't going to rely on a single online review, particularly a review that is completely at odds with pretty much every other review of the Dave.


It’s worth pointing out that all the issues raised by the ASR review were brought out in other previous reviews (e.g., Stereophile) and the relatively lackluster measurements of the Dave pointed out in the ASR review have been confirmed in many other reviews. It’s lackluster headphone performance was pointed out by me and many others. ASR  just quantifies why Dave’s headphone performance is so abysmal.

Check out a very detailed set of measurements of the Dave here, largely corroborating the ASR review:

https://goldensound.audio/2022/03/14/chord-dave-measurements-with-mscaler/

It’s certainly an issue when a DAC manufacturer that prides itself on technical excellence and claims  -300 dB performance (whatever that means) to find the DAC can’t even manage 20 bit performance (where, as the ASR review points out, $150 DACs outperform the Dave). Then again, this is not news. John Atkinson’s Stereophile review found exactly the same issues.

DAC manufacturers have only themselves to blame. There’s little need to make outlandish claims of technical performance when it’s all theoretical anyway. I mean, most moving coil dynamic loudspeakers barely manage 8 bits of linearity as their distortion usually exceeds 5-10% at realistic volumes. With rare exceptions, e.g., the Quad 63 and its newer variants and the Klipsch La Scala horns, which manage to perform at about 0.1% THD (-70 dB, about 12 bits resolution), most loudspeakers are highly nonlinear and are far from being able to reproduce even 16 bit resolution (if you can design a loudspeaker that can resolve 16 bits at any frequency or volume, that would be a watershed moment in high end audio),

So, given the relatively poor performance of loudspeakers, there’s little need to make exalted claims of linearity and distortion that cannot be heard anyway. Besides, the Dave fails to deliver the goods on its claimed measurements anyway. Why resort to useless BS? Chord was asking for a takedown from measurement oriented reviewers like ASR and that’s what it got. On the other hand, the user interface issues pointed out are genuine and need to be fixed, the price is completely out of reality in terms of performance and the marketing BS needs to be toned down a lot.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Shhd


F208Frank said:


> Yeah some serious claims for sure, I do not know how to help other owners avoid "neglect" because I baby the hell out of everything I own.
> 
> All I know is that my dealer also mentioned to me that he has many warranty claims being denied as well, imagine the shock I had when my personal unit failed within a year, but not only that, get denied warranty claim on a over 10K plus product (back then the retail was not 14k though)
> 
> ...





sm60 said:


> It’s worth pointing out that all the issues raised by the ASR review were brought out in other previous reviews (e.g., Stereophile) and the relatively lackluster measurements of the Dave pointed out in the ASR review have been confirmed in many other reviews. It’s lackluster headphone performance was pointed out by me and many others. ASR  just quantifies why Dave’s headphone performance is so abysmal.
> 
> Check out a very detailed set of measurements of the Dave here, largely corroborating the ASR review:
> 
> ...


And yet I've demoed the DAVE and others and the DAVE and the Qutest in my system trashed them all.  Sorry but in my experience in my system you arguments have zero validity.


----------



## Triode User (Nov 13, 2022)

griff500 said:


> Perhaps unrelated though. Mine sounded just as good after the review as it did before. 😉😂


Yeah, mine does as well. There have always been a few Daves for sale second hand. It would be surprising if there weren’t as there are quite a lot of them around by now. I do keep a weather eye on the second hand listings and as far as I can see there hasn’t been any noticeable increase in the number of Daves for sale. There are currently 4 listed on the UK eBay site and that is about the same number that there has been for years. Looking at the UK sales prices actually achieved by recent Dave sellers there is no evidence of them dropping at all.

A couple of days ago a friend who also owns a Dave brought round a £25k streamer he was thinking of buying compared to the £17.5k one he already owns. The interesting thing about this is that he clearly could afford a more expensive Dac than his Dave but he has decided that it is the Dave that is staying and that he is going to spend significant money on a different streamer, money that could have gone towards a different DAC. Personally I am not really surprised having tried various other Dacs over recent times and nothing has come close to the Dave. A surprising comparison for me was the Holo May which is a flavour of the month Dac at the moment. That really drilled home the need to actually compare in ones own system rather than believe reviews (those that have heard me tell this tale before will know that I sold the May after a few weeks). The ASR Chinese Dacs recommended over the Dave are just a laugh if one directly compares them to the Dave in ones own system which is what I have done.

As to the recently mentioned criticism of the Chord repair and warranty service the episodes mentioned are very far from my experience. Not long ago in the UK we had some severe thunder storms which I had not expected and I left my Dave connected whilst we went on a trip to Scotland. When I came back the Dave was fried and was sent back to Chord. They diagnosed a spike in the mains which had taken out the smps and had also fried the main board (although I normally run Dave with a SJ ARC6 power supply I had just changed back to the factory smps for comparison and had left it like that whilst we were away). Chord offered a report for me to claim on insurance and the repair work was done very quickly and efficiently (all organised through my dealer). I was actually quite surprised at how reasonable the total bill was (far far less than the figure mentioned by F208Frank) bearing in mind that just about everything was replaced apart from the aluminium case.


----------



## audio_1

iDesign said:


> It may partially explain the timing and increase in listings. In fact, I’m considering selling my DAVE+Blu Mk II before resale values bottom out.


Why? It's still by far the best dac available. With a properly setup mScaler it just sounds so natural, extended highs with absolutely no brightness or fatigue.


----------



## Reactcore (Nov 13, 2022)

Ohno more ASR talk.. 
please..


----------



## alxw0w (Nov 13, 2022)

Triode User said:


> As to the recently mentioned criticism of the Chord repair and warranty service the episodes mentioned are very far from my experience


Mine experience was also very good.
My TT2 stopped working (there was no sound out of headphones output nor RCA/XLR outputs) after 2-3 weeks or so.

I contacted the dealer, unit was sent to Chord and within 2 weeks I received brand new unit.

Ps. Most of the times it's the dealer/distributor to blame. Once I dealt with Polish distributor of audio-gd products. Horrible experience.


----------



## Reactcore

ufospls2 said:


> Welp, I'm back on the DAVE train. Should be here this week coming. Looking forward to revisiting it since I sold my first one back in 2018, almost 4 years ago exactly.


Welcome back!
What made you returning to it may i ask?


----------



## adrianm

jlbrach said:


> so you are telling me that somebody who already owns a dave and has experienced it firsthand would somehow decide to sell it because an utterly rodiculous website writes a review suggesting that it can be bested by a 150 dollar DAC...these people shouldnt be dabbling in such high end equipment to begin with...I highly doubt anyone would sell their dave due to such nonsense


Actually that's exactly how Amir got his hands on a Dave to test. One of his followers sent it in for testing, and sold it after, rambling on about how he was fooled by Chord and Topping is better. 
    He also admitted he buys Hi-fi for the looks and wouldn't but the Tambaqui because of it...so that's our "Judas" if you will.  speaks volumes. We know what he has to ask the wizard of Oz for...


----------



## adrianm

sm60 said:


> It’s worth pointing out that all the issues raised by the ASR review were brought out in other previous reviews (e.g., Stereophile) and the relatively lackluster measurements of the Dave pointed out in the ASR review have been confirmed in many other reviews. It’s lackluster headphone performance was pointed out by me and many others. ASR  just quantifies why Dave’s headphone performance is so abysmal.
> 
> Check out a very detailed set of measurements of the Dave here, largely corroborating the ASR review:
> 
> ...


While I may be the only one here, I agree 100%. And the fact that I'm selling mine really has nothing to do with it. I'm sick of the marketing bs which enhances people's subjectivism and subsequent echo chamber effect. This is what created the ASR fanatics in the first place, so I think people should rise above that.


audio_1 said:


> Why? It's still by far the best dac available. With a properly setup mScaler it just sounds so natural, extended highs with absolutely no brightness or fatigue.


If you've auditioned only cheaper dacs, I would agree. the M-scaler doesn't sound natural to me though. It sounds exactly like the noisy mess ASR pointed out it was. It's the software that is it's saving grace, but you need to work to hard to make it work imo, and it's too much of a hassle for a product at that price. 



iDesign said:


> It may partially explain the timing and increase in listings. In fact, I’m considering selling my DAVE+Blu Mk II before resale values bottom out.


 If you plan on getting out of the hobby or moving up, sure. Or a lateral move. If you want an "upgrade", I found that's expensive enough to make you think twice and makes any financial reason for a sale a moot point.


----------



## paulrbarnard

iDesign said:


> Indeed it was damaging. After the review was posted, several DAVE’s were listed on various classifieds sites. And I imagine that combined with the economy and price increase, DAVE sales are sharply down. Google indexes the review at the top of results and it doesn’t help that Chord and its dealers aren’t leveraging search ads. I wish Chord would consider firmware updates for the DAVE as a way to spur interest, reduce the secondhand market, increase resale values, and create affordable software upgrades as consumer spending declines.


Why does it matter?
If you already have one you have it for a reason. If you want one a buoyant second hand market at lower price is great.


----------



## Powersquat

sm60 said:


> It’s worth pointing out that all the issues raised by the ASR review were brought out in other previous reviews (e.g., Stereophile) and the relatively lackluster measurements of the Dave pointed out in the ASR review have been confirmed in many other reviews. It’s lackluster headphone performance was pointed out by me and many others. ASR  just quantifies why Dave’s headphone performance is so abysmal.
> 
> Check out a very detailed set of measurements of the Dave here, largely corroborating the ASR review:
> 
> ...



All of this may be true, but I can't listen to measurements, I did listen to the Dave in my set up and I bought it.

To my mind there's little point in harping on about measurements, I want to listen to music presented in a realistic and pleasurable manner and Dave does this for me.


----------



## DJW50

Reactcore said:


> Ohno more ASR talk..
> please..


I agree anyone who want's to listen to the Nigel Farage of the HiFi world is welcome to, most sensible people just ignore such protagonists and get on with enjoying the music.


----------



## Lgn3

Triode User said:


> Yeah, mine does as well. There have always been a few Daves for sale second hand. It would be surprising if there weren’t as there are quite a lot of them around by now. I do keep a weather eye on the second hand listings and as far as I can see there hasn’t been any noticeable increase in the number of Daves for sale. There are currently 4 listed on the UK eBay site and that is about the same number that there has been for years. Looking at the UK sales prices actually achieved by recent Dave sellers there is no evidence of them dropping at all.
> 
> A couple of days ago a friend who also owns a Dave brought round a £25k streamer he was thinking of buying compared to the £17.5k one he already owns. The interesting thing about this is that he clearly could afford a more expensive Dac than his Dave but he has decided that it is the Dave that is staying and that he is going to spend significant money on a different streamer, money that could have gone towards a different DAC. Personally I am not really surprised having tried various other Dacs over recent times and nothing has come close to the Dave. A surprising comparison for me was the Holo May which is a flavour of the month Dac at the moment. That really drilled home the need to actually compare in ones own system rather than believe reviews (those that have heard me tell this tale before will know that I sold the May after a few weeks). The ASR Chinese Dacs recommended over the Dave are just a laugh if one directly compares them to the Dave in ones own system which is what I have done.
> 
> As to the recently mentioned criticism of the Chord repair and warranty service the episodes mentioned are very far from my experience. Not long ago in the UK we had some severe thunder storms which I had not expected and I left my Dave connected whilst we went on a trip to Scotland. When I came back the Dave was fried and was sent back to Chord. They diagnosed a spike in the mains which had taken out the smps and had also fried the main board (although I normally run Dave with a SJ ARC6 power supply I had just changed back to the factory smps for comparison and had left it like that whilst we were away). Chord offered a report for me to claim on insurance and the repair work was done very quickly and efficiently (all organised through my dealer). I was actually quite surprised at how reasonable the total bill was (far far less than the figure mentioned by F208Frank) bearing in mind that just about everything was replaced apart from the aluminium case.




So was your Dave left powered on or just plugged into the mains ?


----------



## Triode User

Lgn3 said:


> So was your Dave left powered on or just plugged into the mains ?


Plugged in and powered on. I tend to leave it like that unless I am leaving the house untended for a few days. I just forgot to switch it off and unplug. They were big thunderstorms. Our neighbours said one passed right overhead.


----------



## Lgn3

F208Frank said:


> I just want to say, today I randomly thought about how I owned the DAVE, brand new for few months, power supply failed within 1 year, and warranty result was that it was not chords fault but mine (some form of neglect on my part) when I just unopened unit brand new, placed it on rack, and powered on...
> 
> Just thinking about this pisses me off to this very day... and to think I was a chord fan boy for a while too makes me squirm.
> 
> ...



So in what way did Chord say you had been negligent ? If they did not state something specific did you ask for clarification ? Also was this  response from Chord in the UK or their USA distributor  ?


----------



## GuiltyRocker

DJW50 said:


> I agree anyone who want's to listen to the Nigel Farage of the HiFi world is welcome to, most sensible people just ignore such protagonists and get on with enjoying the music.


It doesn't stop, I wonder why the constant attack on the Chord products... 😂


----------



## Spawn300Z

GuiltyRocker said:


> It doesn't stop, I wonder why the constant attack on the Chord products... 😂


When you’re on top. There’ll always be someone looking to take your spot. 🤷🏾‍♂️


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Spawn300Z said:


> When you’re on top. There’ll always be someone looking to take your spot. 🤷🏾‍♂️


Well that makes sense, hahahahahaa.


----------



## sm60

GuiltyRocker said:


> Shhd
> 
> 
> 
> And yet I've demoed the DAVE and others and the DAVE and the Qutest in my system trashed them all.  Sorry but in my experience in my system you arguments have zero validity.


That’s your subjective opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. It’s your money and you can choose to spend it however you see fit. However, the issue at hand is not subjective opinion, but objective measurements. If you’re going to make outlandish technical claims about -300dB S/N ratio, then you better be able to back up such claims. ASR and many other reviews have found significant limitations of Dave’s performance in terms of linearity, distortion and of course the user interface. No one is saying these invalidate your subjective impressions.

20 years ago, I owned a 3-series manual stick shift BMW, the “ultimate driving machine”, according to their marketing propaganda. Now if BMW said our car can go 0-60 in 2 seconds and give 100 miles per gallon, that’s an objective claim. A car magazine can test that claim, and if they find it doesn’t go that fast or is not that fuel efficient, BMW has a credibility problem.

I have a Lampizator Pacific in addition to the Dave, and Lukasz, Lampizator’s chief designer makes no technical claims about the Pacific whatsoever. He does not say what chipsets are in it, what DSP processing is done etc., except a cryptic statement that it’s state of the art. He leaves it up to you to listen and decide if it’s for you. Obviously it’s a tube DAC that’s designed for tube rollers, and if you don’t like tubes, you won’t go near his designs. But since he makes no technical claims, except subjective ones, he’s not likely to be called upon to answer them.

It won’t be surprising to me if ASR tests the Pacific and finds its performance not commensurate with the money, Lampizator will be given much worse treatment that Chord is getting from ASR.


----------



## griff500

sm60 said:


> However, the issue at hand is not subjective opinion, but objective measurements.


Actually, this thread is all about the subjective (thank god).


----------



## BassicScience

griff500 said:


> Actually, this thread is all about the subjective (thank god).


Interesting take.

Thread title: CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

First post: _Just wondering if anyone has any info on the specs of this DAC?_


----------



## griff500

BassicScience said:


> Interesting take.
> 
> Thread title: CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE
> 
> First post: _Just wondering if anyone has any info on the specs of this DAC?_


Trying to be clever as usual. 

It’s been said plenty of times, along with the fact that there’s a ‘science’ section of the forum for discussing measurements, etc.


----------



## BassicScience

griff500 said:


> It’s been said plenty of times, along with the fact that there’s a ‘science’ section of the forum for discussing measurements, etc.


I just reviewed Head-Fi's Posting Guidelines and didn't see anything about restricting discussion of measurements to the Sound Science forum. Furthermore, DAVE's designer has made specific claims about measurable performance _within this thread_, which makes discussion of those claims fair game. IMHO, of course.


----------



## griff500

BassicScience said:


> I just reviewed Head-Fi's Posting Guidelines and didn't see anything about restricting discussion of measurements to the Sound Science forum. Furthermore, DAVE's designer has made specific claims about measurable performance _within this thread_, which makes discussion of those claims fair game. IMHO, of course.


You actually took the time to go through posting guidelines… oh dear. 

There’s a sound science section for a reason.


----------



## miketlse

griff500 said:


> You actually took the time to go through posting guidelines… oh dear.
> 
> There’s a sound science section for a reason.


Measurements are different to science alone. Measurements enable engineering, and DAVE is an engineered product.


----------



## BassicScience

griff500 said:


> You actually took the time to go through posting guidelines… oh dear.


Yes, I clicked on Posting Guidelines and searched for "measurement". Took about 30 seconds.


griff500 said:


> There’s a sound science section for a reason.


Right, and that reason doesn't appear to be to _exclusively _contain the discussion of measurements. I'm not sure why you feel entitled to shut down valid discussions which are within the guidelines of the site. If you don't find them interesting, just skip over them or put the responsible posters on your Ignore list.


----------



## GuiltyRocker (Nov 13, 2022)

sm60 said:


> That’s your subjective opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. It’s your money and you can choose to spend it however you see fit. However, the issue at hand is not subjective opinion, but objective measurements. If you’re going to make outlandish technical claims about -300dB S/N ratio, then you better be able to back up such claims. ASR and many other reviews have found significant limitations of Dave’s performance in terms of linearity, distortion and of course the user interface. No one is saying these invalidate your subjective impressions.
> 
> 20 years ago, I owned a 3-series manual stick shift BMW, the “ultimate driving machine”, according to their marketing propaganda. Now if BMW said our car can go 0-60 in 2 seconds and give 100 miles per gallon, that’s an objective claim. A car magazine can test that claim, and if they find it doesn’t go that fast or is not that fuel efficient, BMW has a credibility problem.
> 
> ...


I see what you mean, however, companies go about their products in different ways, Chord just happens to have a designer who's very involved in forums such as this and seems to be very proud of his bespoke approach, if I did research over decades on the subject of interpolation filters, noise shapers, sinc function and long filters, my own code written with sweat and tears you better believe I would be outspoken about it.  The "review" of ASR does nothing other than to prove that an aging DAC has fantastic objective performance, his numbers are below threshold of audibility.  Before you talk about -300db performance you should really listen to what Rob was talking about, he was talking about the performance of the NOISE SHAPER, not the DAC itself.  That performance in the noise shaper itself leads to more depth in his listening tests, however, if you read the nonsense from the clowns in ASR they say that Rob claimed to hear -300db, ridiculous.  ASR makes me laugh, it is hilarious.  What's really awesome is that all that I heard the first time I heard Chord without knowing what it was is precisely what Rob says, and I heard his talks after the DAC blew me away because i was curious, so before you say I was "conditioned" as the ASR cult says, no, I wasn't.  I've heard plenty of Tube DACs and I wasn't impressed at all, the same with the rest of the Chi-Fi stuff, sorry not for me.


----------



## Somafunk

griff500 said:


> There’s a sound science section for a reason.



So that verifiable objective measurements that may not concur with manufacturers claims can be siloed off to a dark corner of the forum that does not interfere with gushing subjective love ins for products?.

I’d have thought it would make sense to keep discussion of a product in one place, warts and all so a potential purchaser can come to a conclusion with all the facts at their disposal, then again i do not run a website that undoubtedly has overheads that need paid to continue operating in a commercial environment.


----------



## griff500

Somafunk said:


> So that verifiable objective measurements that may not concur with manufacturers claims can be siloed off to a dark corner of the forum that does not interfere with gushing subjective love ins for products?.
> 
> I’d have thought it would make sense to keep discussion of a product in one place, warts and all so a potential purchaser can come to a conclusion with all the facts at their disposal, then again i do not run a website that undoubtedly has overheads that need paid to continue operating in a commercial environment.


Because the thread has been derailed a number of times already and these types of discussions tend to just waste pages and pages banging on about what measurements are used, why they might or might not be all that matters, etc, etc, etc, disappearing down the toilet of objective vs subjective argument… without achieving anything. Those circular discussions are thread killers and far better had in the sound science section.


----------



## griff500

BassicScience said:


> Right, and that reason doesn't appear to be to _exclusively _contain the discussion of measurements. I'm not sure why you feel entitled to shut down valid discussions which are within the guidelines of the site. If you don't find them interesting, just skip over them or put the responsible posters on your Ignore list.


I’m fairly certain it’s not the first time you’ve tried to take this thread off in this direction, or perhaps it was the M-Scaler thread. Either way, I’ll take your advice and pop you on my ignore list.


----------



## jlbrach

this is such a ridiculous discussion,for years now the Dave has been hailed by pretty much everyone and regarded as one of the very best DAC's no matter price..along comes this insane site that basically attacks all high end products and promotes the idea that 300 dollar amps and DAC's are the equal of or better than TOTL models...and we are debating the merits of this nonsense and we are told people are selling their Dave because these people say a 150 dollar DAC is better than a Dave?...I have heard it all lol


----------



## GuiltyRocker

jlbrach said:


> this is such a ridiculous discussion,for years now the Dave has been hailed by pretty much everyone and regarded as one of the very best DAC's no matter price..along comes this insane site that basically attacks all high end products and promotes the idea that 300 dollar amps and DAC's are the equal of or better than TOTL models...and we are debating the merits of this nonsense and we are told people are selling their Dave because these people say a 150 dollar DAC is better than a Dave?...I have heard it all lol


It's really ridiculous, I wonder how much these Chi-Fi companies are paying..... 😂


----------



## Crgreen

I’m reminded of the story of Dr Johnson observing two fishwives arguing from houses on opposite sides of the street. “They will never agree,” he observed, “as they are arguing from different premises.”

Probabaly best to leave it there.


----------



## griff500

Crgreen said:


> I’m reminded of the story of Dr Johnson observing two fishwives arguing from houses on opposite sides of the street. “They will never agree,” he observed, “as they are arguing from different premises.”
> 
> Probabaly best to leave it there.


Probabaly right. 😉


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Crgreen said:


> I’m reminded of the story of Dr Johnson observing two fishwives arguing from houses on opposite sides of the street. “They will never agree,” he observed, “as they are arguing from different premises.”
> 
> Probabaly best to leave it there.


Makes sense.


----------



## DJW50

The DAVE turned up this morning for me to demo for a few days. First impression, there seems to be a bit more of everything so I'm impressed. I have a chap turning up with  a Mola Mola Tambaqui at 3 this afternoon so will have been well settled in with the DAVE by then.
If I decide on the DAVE I think I'll buy the ex demo Sevenoaks has sent me as they are prepared to do a deal for it so it's down to whether the Mola Mola blows me away.


----------



## zen87192

Sevenoaks Guys always accommodating... Great Company offering flexibility and good deals. I can also vouch for the experienced chaps at Fanthorpes HiFi. Customer services top notch! Demos at home never an issue.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

DJW50 said:


> The DAVE turned up this morning for me to demo for a few days. First impression, there seems to be a bit more of everything so I'm impressed. I have a chap turning up with  a Mola Mola Tambaqui at 3 this afternoon so will have been well settled in with the DAVE by then.
> If I decide on the DAVE I think I'll buy the ex demo Sevenoaks has sent me as they are prepared to do a deal for it so it's down to whether the Mola Mola blows me away.


That'll be interesting, I want to hear your impressions on the Mola Mola.


----------



## DJW50

GuiltyRocker said:


> That'll be interesting, I want to hear your impressions on the Mola Mola.


Both are very nice, the DAVE just has a bit more 'bite' the Mola Mola is so smooth and refined but I just like the slightly extra 'zing' the DAVE has.
But I'm going to let the Mola Mola well and trust warm up first.


----------



## Powersquat

DJW50 said:


> The DAVE turned up this morning for me to demo for a few days. First impression, there seems to be a bit more of everything so I'm impressed. I have a chap turning up with  a Mola Mola Tambaqui at 3 this afternoon so will have been well settled in with the DAVE by then.
> If I decide on the DAVE I think I'll buy the ex demo Sevenoaks has sent me as they are prepared to do a deal for it so it's down to whether the Mola Mola blows me away.



A friend of mine has the Tambaqui, it's a very fine Dac, I first compared it to the TT2 I had at the time, to my ears the Tambaqui was a little fuller and thus offered a more expansive soundstage, it also felt as if the bass was tighter on the Mola Mola, however I preferred the overall signature of the TT2, hence my decision to purchase a DAVe.

When we compared my new DAVe to the Tambaqui things still weren't entirely clear cut, however I felt the Dave won out  with better resolution and a greater sense of space and air around voices and instruments, but the Tambaqui more than held it's own on timbre and texture. stringed instruments in particular sounded very natural, not that DAVE lacks in this department, merely that I felt it was a strong point for the Tambaqui.

Now add the MScaler to the DAVE and we both had to agree the DAVE, MScaler combo was the clear winner in pretty much every department, we both agreed the MScaler added a little more realism to the already excellent Dave  

Of course as always YMMV.,


----------



## DJW50

Powersquat said:


> A friend of mine has the Tambaqui, it's a very fine Dac, I first compared it to the TT2 I had at the time, to my ears the Tambaqui was a little fuller and thus offered a more expansive soundstage, it also felt as if the bass was tighter on the Mola Mola, however I preferred the overall signature of the TT2, hence my decision to purchase a DAVe.
> 
> When we compared my new DAVe to the Tambaqui things still weren't entirely clear cut, however I felt the Dave won out  with better resolution and a greater sense of space and air around voices and instruments, but the Tambaqui more than held it's own on timbre and texture. stringed instruments in particular sounded very natural, not that DAVE lacks in this department, merely that I felt it was a strong point for the Tambaqui.
> 
> ...


I really like both, having now well and truly warmed up the Mola sounds so good, not that the DAVE doesn't.
I think it's going to be a decision made on who can do me the best deal because I can't really say one is better. Initially I preferred the DAVE it just seemed to have a bit more 'zing' but now I'm listening to my 'go to' tracks that I know really well I can't say one is better or I prefer one over the other.
From a bass guitar accuracy point of view they both have the ability for me to differentiate a Fender Precision growl from the bass guitars. Plus on Texas Flood both reproduce that wonderful easy to follow E flat bas line with such clarity I'm very impressed.


----------



## Reactcore

DJW50 said:


> I really like both, having now well and truly warmed up the Mola sounds so good, not that the DAVE doesn't.
> I think it's going to be a decision made on who can do me the best deal because I can't really say one is better. Initially I preferred the DAVE it just seemed to have a bit more 'zing' but now I'm listening to my 'go to' tracks that I know really well I can't say one is better or I prefer one over the other.
> From a bass guitar accuracy point of view they both have the ability for me to differentiate a Fender Precision growl from the bass guitars. Plus on Texas Flood both reproduce that wonderful easy to follow E flat bas line with such clarity I'm very impressed.


Try to add the Mscaler on your demo setup if you can.. also keep in mind that a follow scaler is in the making as future upgrade.

Does the Mola have upgrades too?


----------



## Powersquat

DJW50 said:


> I really like both, having now well and truly warmed up the Mola sounds so good, not that the DAVE doesn't.
> I think it's going to be a decision made on who can do me the best deal because I can't really say one is better. Initially I preferred the DAVE it just seemed to have a bit more 'zing' but now I'm listening to my 'go to' tracks that I know really well I can't say one is better or I prefer one over the other.
> From a bass guitar accuracy point of view they both have the ability for me to differentiate a Fender Precision growl from the bass guitars. Plus on Texas Flood both reproduce that wonderful easy to follow E flat bas line with such clarity I'm very impressed.




I agree they're both excellent Dac's, I could easily have lived with the Tambaqui, but for me the MScaler adds another dimension, if at all possible try the DAVE with the MScaler, but of course the addition of the MScaler does push up the cost.


----------



## DJW50

Reactcore said:


> Try to add the Mscaler on your demo setup if you can.. also keep in mind that a follow scaler is in the making as future upgrade.
> 
> Does the Mola have upgrades too?


No just updates. I'm not keen on adding the M Scaler because you then have to buy interconnects. As the DAVE is only slightly more expensive than the Mola Mola adding additional bits puts the budget up to other products around.
If I decide on the DAVE I will look at adding the Farad PSU at a much later date.


----------



## DJW50

Powersquat said:


> I agree they're both excellent Dac's, I could easily have lived with the Tambaqui, but for me the MScaler adds another dimension, if at all possible try the DAVE with the MScaler, but of course the addition of the MScaler does push up the cost.


As I mentioned above I would like to make my choice on what I have in front of me. I was going to buy secondhand but if Sevenoaks can do a blistering deal I may be tempted.
It really is down to who comes up with the best deal, the more I listen the more I think they are both really good.
I had no complaints about the Qutest with the MCRU PSU but both these units just seem to bring out more individual instrument separation from the mix, but then they should at their price point.


----------



## kawhia

DJW50 said:


> As I mentioned above I would like to make my choice on what I have in front of me. I was going to buy secondhand but if Sevenoaks can do a blistering deal I may be tempted.
> It really is down to who comes up with the best deal, the more I listen the more I think they are both really good.
> I had no complaints about the Qutest with the MCRU PSU but both these units just seem to bring out more individual instrument separation from the mix, but then they should at their price point.


Do you use the streamer inside the Tambaqui? And how do you connect DAVE to your source? Tambaqui has the added value of an inbuilt streamer.


----------



## DJW50

kawhia said:


> Do you use the streamer inside the Tambaqui? And how do you connect DAVE to your source? Tambaqui has the added value of an inbuilt streamer.


No I haven't. My system is an Auralic Aries G1 streamer transport that via USB goes into the DAC then into my Pathos Inpol Ear then to the Focal Utopia's.
One of the reasons I didn't pursue the DCS Bartok is because I think the Auralic is spectacular at sending my Amazon HD music to the DAC.
The DAVE and the Mola are used purely as a DAC.


----------



## kawhia

DJW50 said:


> No I haven't. My system is an Auralic Aries G1 streamer transport that via USB goes into the DAC then into my Pathos Inpol Ear then to the Focal Utopia's.
> One of the reasons I didn't pursue the DCS Bartok is because I think the Auralic is spectacular at sending my Amazon HD music to the DAC.
> The DAVE and the Mola are used purely as a DAC.


Why not try the Ethernet input of the Tambaqui just for fun? If it is indistinguishable from the Auralic soundwise you could sell the streamer? One box less. Or do you need it for your subscription?


----------



## DJW50

kawhia said:


> Why not try the Ethernet input of the Tambaqui just for fun? If it is indistinguishable from the Auralic soundwise you could sell the streamer? One box less. Or do you need it for your subscription?


I could but I'm more than happy enough with the Auralic with it being pretty good at upscaling and the very good DS interface, in fact I think it's fantastic. I've already got a fair few items on e-bay as it is.
At this moment in time the DAVE is winning favour with me. This is compounded by the Mola being exceptional with a few tracks and the DAVE also being exceptional on different tracks. I plan another extended listening session tomorrow and hope to make a decision by midday.
From a measurement point of view (you know the important one) the DAVE does sit so nicely on the top of the Pathos just behind the two protruding valves in perfect proportion, whereas the Mola doesn't sit as nicely.


----------



## endless402

Anyone have their Dave switch to the headphone output on its own while playing? Mine randomy switches to headphone out once or twice a day. To get it to switch back to the xlr out, i have to insert the 1/4 inch headphone jack and pull it out….
sometimes if i wait for a minute, it will switch back out. 

I think something is triggering the headphone out. I never use the headphone out on the Dave…..
I’ve tried using an air blower bulb (for camera lenses) in the headphone jack but it doesn’t help.


----------



## DJW50

endless402 said:


> Anyone have their Dave switch to the headphone output on its own while playing? Mine randomy switches to headphone out once or twice a day. To get it to switch back to the xlr out, i have to insert the 1/4 inch headphone jack and pull it out….
> sometimes if i wait for a minute, it will switch back out.
> 
> I think something is triggering the headphone out. I never use the headphone out on the Dave…..
> I’ve tried using an air blower bulb (for camera lenses) in the headphone jack but it doesn’t help.


Haven't had that yet, but I did insert the headphone jack to play around with crossfeed function.


----------



## The Jester

DJW50 said:


> I could but I'm more than happy enough with the Auralic with it being pretty good at upscaling and the very good DS interface, in fact I think it's fantastic. I've already got a fair few items on e-bay as it is.
> At this moment in time the DAVE is winning favour with me. This is compounded by the Mola being exceptional with a few tracks and the DAVE also being exceptional on different tracks. I plan another extended listening session tomorrow and hope to make a decision by midday.
> From a measurement point of view (you know the important one) the DAVE does sit so nicely on the top of the Pathos just behind the two protruding valves in perfect proportion, whereas the Mola doesn't sit as nicely.


You’re not upscaling on the G1 and then feeding on to the DAC ?


----------



## Reactcore (Nov 16, 2022)

endless402 said:


> Anyone have their Dave switch to the headphone output on its own while playing? Mine randomy switches to headphone out once or twice a day. To get it to switch back to the xlr out, i have to insert the 1/4 inch headphone jack and pull it out….
> sometimes if i wait for a minute, it will switch back out.
> 
> I think something is triggering the headphone out. I never use the headphone out on the Dave…..
> I’ve tried using an air blower bulb (for camera lenses) in the headphone jack but it doesn’t help.


The groundpin of the jack socket double acts as a switch to activate the headphone relay. Its the click noise you hear when inserting a jack plug.
It has some corrosion dirt i think.

Only way is to open Dave and use a small piece of paper between the jack socket's springed ground contact (the one on Dave's front side) to clean it.

Its easy to reach..


----------



## DJW50

The Jester said:


> You’re not upscaling on the G1 and then feeding on to the DAC ?


Yes I am 384kHz at 32 bit coming out of the Auralic.


----------



## DJW50




----------



## LucyWu

Not that I would presume to over-ride your approach because you're obviously pleased with the results, but many would counsel at least trying Auralic to Dave without the G1 upsampling. Many, myself included, do send upsampled data to Dave but at 705/768 sample rates. This bypasses the primary filter in the Dave completely. By sending 352/384 rates you are performing upsampling before the Dave and then it goes to the primary upsampling filter in the Dave also, effectively you have two different processes influencing the resultant output.

Worth trying it without the Auralic upsampler.


----------



## DJW50

LucyWu said:


> Not that I would presume to over-ride your approach because you're obviously pleased with the results, but many would counsel at least trying Auralic to Dave without the G1 upsampling. Many, myself included, do send upsampled data to Dave but at 705/768 sample rates. This bypasses the primary filter in the Dave completely. By sending 352/384 rates you are performing upsampling before the Dave and then it goes to the primary upsampling filter in the Dave also, effectively you have two different processes influencing the resultant output.
> 
> Worth trying it without the Auralic upsampler.


Thanks, when I remove the upsampling on the Auralic the DAVE  just displays what is the original source ie 44.1kHz it's still 32 bit on the DS.
I'm all for learning as I read somewhere the Auralic upsampling has it's critics. 
I spent hours switching the Auralic upsampling on and off and came to the conclusion I preferred it being upsampled by the Auralic.


----------



## Slim1970

DJW50 said:


> Thanks, when I remove the upsampling on the Auralic the DAVE  just displays what is the original source ie 44.1kHz it's still 32 bit on the DS.
> I'm all for learning as I read somewhere the Auralic upsampling has it's critics.
> I spent hours switching the Auralic upsampling on and off and came to the conclusion I preferred it being upsampled by the Auralic.


Are you using BNC connectors?


----------



## DJW50

Slim1970 said:


> Are you using BNC connectors?


No USB


----------



## Crgreen

I have an Aries G2.1 as a Roon endpoint, feeding an Innuos Phoenix USB reclocker, going into the Dave. Given that Dave’s onboard upsampling is likely to be superior I don’t engage any upsampling in either Roon or on the G2.1 - vanilla source all the way to the Dave. To my ears that results in greater transparency, at least in my setup using Meze Elite headphones which are pretty revealing.


----------



## DJW50

Crgreen said:


> I have an Aries G2.1 as a Roon endpoint, feeding an Innuos Phoenix USB reclocker, going into the Dave. Given that Dave’s onboard upsampling is likely to be superior I don’t engage any upsampling in either Roon or on the G2.1 - vanilla source all the way to the Dave. To my ears that results in greater transparency, at least in my setup using Meze Elite headphones which are pretty revealing.


Do you go through a USB connection into the DAVE?


----------



## Crgreen

Yes, the only way from the Phoenix USB reclocker.


----------



## DJW50

Crgreen said:


> Yes, the only way from the Phoenix USB reclocker.


I did wonder if going through the USB missed the DAVE's on board sampler. Not that I had a clue about that anyway or much else on the technical side. I'm just an ageing musician with a liking for decent HiFi.


----------



## Crgreen

My understanding is that Dave upsamples through all its inputs, other than possibly the dual BNC inputs from an mscaler, which does the upsampling.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Crgreen said:


> My understanding is that Dave upsamples through all its inputs, other than possibly the dual BNC inputs from an mscaler, which does the upsampling.


That is correct, the WTA filters do up sample within the unit on all inputs except dual BNC because the HMS has a better up sampling filter.


----------



## ufospls2

DAVE is back after 4 years and warming up


----------



## DJW50

Crgreen said:


> My understanding is that Dave upsamples through all its inputs, other than possibly the dual BNC inputs from an mscaler, which does the upsampling.


So would it be fair to assume that I'd be better off just feeding the DAVE the original 44kHz 16 bit material and letting the DAVE upsample that on it's way to the Pathos as the DAVE s has a superior upsampled to the Auralic?
I have messed around for hours with the Qutest trying to determine what is the better sound option.


----------



## Crgreen

Yes, that would be my recommendation: keep the digital signal in its native format and let the DAVE handle upsampling.


----------



## kawhia (Nov 16, 2022)

ufospls2 said:


> DAVE is back after 4 years and warming up


Holy smokes. Don’t ever drop this amp on you foot… nice.
Edit: which Dac did you use in the interim?


----------



## ufospls2

kawhia said:


> Holy smokes. Don’t ever drop this amp on you foot… nice.
> Edit: which Dac did you use in the interim?


Rockna Wavelight, Schiit Yggdrasil A2/Unison, iFi Pro iDSD Signature all for various amounts of time.


----------



## Crgreen

kawhia said:


> Holy smokes. Don’t ever drop this amp on you foot… nice.
> Edit: which Dac did you use in the interim?


Boulder by name and boulder by nature?


----------



## LucyWu

DJW50 said:


> So would it be fair to assume that I'd be better off just feeding the DAVE the original 44kHz 16 bit material and letting the DAVE upsample that on it's way to the Pathos as the DAVE s has a superior upsampled to the Auralic?
> I have messed around for hours with the Qutest trying to determine what is the better sound option.


Hi again

The main reason for spending on the Dave is it's internal upsampling. It uses a custom designed, highly refined filter that aims to reproduce what Rob Watts has identified as key characteristics of sound reproduction with very high accuracy.There's a lot of material where Rob explains this so I won't try to replicate that here. Suffice it to say that if the sound Chord dacs appeals then it is best to just feed the Dave with non-upsampled material and let the dac do the work.It's the result of thousands of hours of refinement, which with the best will in the world, the Auralic can't hope to match.

Same probably goes for the Mola Mola dac. It internally upsamples everything to a high level also.

The Qutest is a good dac but for a number of technical differences (which reflect in the relative pricing) the Dave is capable of much better sound. Many people find all Chord dacs work better with optical or SPDIF input. The USB input is convenient but prone to noise which shows up as a sharpness in the sound which many people don't get along with and attribute it to the dac being "bright" or "thin" sounding, which is definitely isn't the case.


----------



## DJW50

LucyWu said:


> Hi again
> 
> The main reason for spending on the Dave is it's internal upsampling. It uses a custom designed, highly refined filter that aims to reproduce what Rob Watts has identified as key characteristics of sound reproduction with very high accuracy.There's a lot of material where Rob explains this so I won't try to replicate that here. Suffice it to say that if the sound Chord dacs appeals then it is best to just feed the Dave with non-upsampled material and let the dac do the work.It's the result of thousands of hours of refinement, which with the best will in the world, the Auralic can't hope to match.
> 
> ...


Thanks again for your helpful advice. I have been trying the DAVE and the Mola Mola with the basic setting on the Auralic. Once I decide on what one I will buy I will need to sit down and have a good re-listen because up to the other day I'd been feeding both with the upsampled signal from the Auralic and really enjoying it.
I can't honestly say that on the few 'go-to' tracks I always use I do not notice any difference between the upsampled Auralic content and the non upsampled content going into either but I'm always open to ideas.
One thing is obvious though the DAVE seems to be able to put the music content into more defined 'packets' in the overall mix, and these packets within the content whether they are a drum or guitar just seem to be more detailed. I don't want to raise the old cliche but I am hearing very small details that were obviously always there but seem to be more obvious now.


----------



## DJW50

After an awful lot of listening of the DAVE and the Mola Mola I have decided on the DAVE, Sevenoaks offered me a very good deal as did the Mola Mola dealer but in the end I just preferred the deal and the DAVE.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

DJW50 said:


> After an awful lot of listening of the DAVE and the Mola Mola I have decided on the DAVE, Sevenoaks offered me a very good deal as did the Mola Mola dealer but in the end I just preferred the deal and the DAVE.


Hans on youtube also chose the DAVE after listening to both, DAVE is the real deal.


----------



## DJW50

GuiltyRocker said:


> Hans on youtube also chose the DAVE after listening to both, DAVE is the real deal.


He is someone I watch regularly he is very good


----------



## GuiltyRocker

DJW50 said:


> He is someone I watch regularly he is very good


He's a great guy.


----------



## zen87192 (Nov 17, 2022)

If ever there was an Alien invasion, I think Hans would be the correct spokesperson for the Planet.... he could calm any entity down with that voice in an iota. And then... probably be able to sell them a DAVE... to keep things on thread...


----------



## GuiltyRocker

zen87192 said:


> If ever there was an Alien invasion, I think Hans would be the correct spokesperson for the Planet.... he could calm any entity down with that voice in an iota. And then... probably be able to sell them a DAVE... to keep things on thread...


Hahahahahahahahaha


----------



## DJW50

Okay, so it would appear that the upsampling in the DAVE is superior to the Auralic. So given that I'm sending an upsampled signal to the DAVE as I have been doing because it states on the display USB 350 plus kHz on the DAVE would the DAVE not just make it slightly better and perhaps even upsample it higher?


----------



## GuiltyRocker

DJW50 said:


> Okay, so it would appear that the upsampling in the DAVE is superior to the Auralic. So given that I'm sending an upsampled signal to the DAVE as I have been doing because it states on the display USB 350 plus kHz on the DAVE would the DAVE not just make it slightly better and perhaps even upsample it higher?


The Dave Upsamples for the first WTA to 702khz for 44khz music files and 768khz for higher sampled files, the second WTA filter within the DAVE takes it even higher, this is needed to implement Noise shaper, which runs at over 100 megahertz, so yes don't Upsample anything, send it to the DAVE as intact as possible and let the DAVE Upsample.


----------



## Powersquat

DJW50 said:


> Okay, so it would appear that the upsampling in the DAVE is superior to the Auralic. So given that I'm sending an upsampled signal to the DAVE as I have been doing because it states on the display USB 350 plus kHz on the DAVE would the DAVE not just make it slightly better and perhaps even upsample it higher?



As I understand, the advice from Rob Watts is to only feed the DAVE with native files, unless the DAVE is connected to the MScaler via the dual BNC inputs, his feeling is that any upsampling from a third party device degrades the sound quality.

Of course it's your preference that counts, it's your system so trust your ears.


----------



## Crgreen

My own experience with upsampling prior to the DAVE, albeit brief, is that although certain tonal characteristics can be affected, you tend to lose something in transparency.


----------



## DJW50

Crgreen said:


> My own experience with upsampling prior to the DAVE, albeit brief, is that although certain tonal characteristics can be affected, you tend to lose something in transparency.


Well I'm in the groove as far as discerning differences as I've just been assessing which DAC to buy.
One thing is for sure on the Auralic you can choose smooth, dynamic and two others. There is a difference in the sound between these more so with the DAVE.
It's only been about two hours of listening so far and I'm able to immediately cut the upsampling on the DS iPad thing and with my couple of 'go to' tracks I'm still really undecided there is certainly no change for the worse with female vocals or guitars so far even those with a fuzz box Jimi.


----------



## Crgreen

DJW50 said:


> Well I'm in the groove as far as discerning differences as I've just been assessing which DAC to buy.
> One thing is for sure on the Auralic you can choose smooth, dynamic and two others. There is a difference in the sound between these more so with the DAVE.
> It's only been about two hours of listening so far and I'm able to immediately cut the upsampling on the DS iPad thing and with my couple of 'go to' tracks I'm still really undecided there is certainly no change for the worse with female vocals or guitars so far even those with a fuzz box Jimi.


Smooth, Dynamic, etc in the Filter mode is a little different from upsampling on an Auralic device. The Filters are relatively benign and Smooth is a popular option. I think the point that’s been made is that it might be best to have the quite separate upsampling option off and leave that to the Dave. Personally, I disable the resampler entirely on the Processor Setup tab for the Aries G2.1, but as with all things let your ears be the judge. If it sounds good to you, or you can’t hear a difference, then all is okay, but avoid quick A/B tests. Longer listening sessions are the best means of assessment.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

DJW50 said:


> Well I'm in the groove as far as discerning differences as I've just been assessing which DAC to buy.
> One thing is for sure on the Auralic you can choose smooth, dynamic and two others. There is a difference in the sound between these more so with the DAVE.
> It's only been about two hours of listening so far and I'm able to immediately cut the upsampling on the DS iPad thing and with my couple of 'go to' tracks I'm still really undecided there is certainly no change for the worse with female vocals or guitars so far even those with a fuzz box Jimi.


Use the high frequency filter on the Dave too, i find that it smooths out the sound a bit


----------



## Reactcore

DJW50 said:


> Well I'm in the groove as far as discerning differences as I've just been assessing which DAC to buy.
> One thing is for sure on the Auralic you can choose smooth, dynamic and two others. There is a difference in the sound between these more so with the DAVE.
> It's only been about two hours of listening so far and I'm able to immediately cut the upsampling on the DS iPad thing and with my couple of 'go to' tracks I'm still really undecided there is certainly no change for the worse with female vocals or guitars so far even those with a fuzz box Jimi.



Be shure to also try using only a toslink out of your source with no other inputs connected to Dave..


----------



## simorag

Talking about the flabbergasting resolution powers of the DAVE ... Spatial reconstruction capabilities over headphones, especially with crossfeed active, are truly astounding on this beautiful recording


----------



## Ragnar-BY

simorag said:


> Talking about the flabbergasting resolution powers of the DAVE ... Spatial reconstruction capabilities over headphones, especially with crossfeed active, are truly astounding on this beautiful recording



Misa Criolla! 👍 I love it. Have you heard a version performed by Musica Temprana? I love the album, made by Cobra Records. It was recorded in a church and original recording made in DSD64 with binaural microphones is incredibly impressive. A very successful combination of authentic performance and the perfect work of the recording team. The binaural version in headphones is simply amazing. I have come across records that sound too "binaural" and unusual technicality can even distract from the music, but with this album, Cobra Records did it perfectly - it just sounds "real".


----------



## DJW50

Crgreen said:


> Smooth, Dynamic, etc in the Filter mode is a little different from upsampling on an Auralic device. The Filters are relatively benign and Smooth is a popular option. I think the point that’s been made is that it might be best to have the quite separate upsampling option off and leave that to the Dave. Personally, I disable the resampler entirely on the Processor Setup tab for the Aries G2.1, but as with all things let your ears be the judge. If it sounds good to you, or you can’t hear a difference, then all is okay, but avoid quick A/B tests. Longer listening sessions are the best means of assessment.


Thanks, there is nothing more helpful than someone who has virtually the same gear as you. So your findings are most helpful. Although I'm still not sure which way to go.


----------



## Amberlamps

endless402 said:


> Anyone have their Dave switch to the headphone output on its own while playing? Mine randomy switches to headphone out once or twice a day. To get it to switch back to the xlr out, i have to insert the 1/4 inch headphone jack and pull it out….
> sometimes if i wait for a minute, it will switch back out.
> 
> I think something is triggering the headphone out. I never use the headphone out on the Dave…..
> I’ve tried using an air blower bulb (for camera lenses) in the headphone jack but it doesn’t help.



I remember Rob saying that you should never put in or take out a headphone whilst dave is on, which may cause damage.

Food for thought, mebbe


----------



## Crgreen

I can’t remember seeing that in the manual but as a headphone user, if correct, that’s an important - indeed critical - piece of nformation.


----------



## JTbbb

Crgreen said:


> I can’t remember seeing that in the manual but as a headphone user, if correct, that’s an important - indeed critical - piece of nformation.


Not heard that myself either, doesn’t mean it’s not out there though! If I want to compare some music from Dave whilst listening on my tube amp, I just plug into Dave.


----------



## paulrbarnard

Amberlamps said:


> I remember Rob saying that you should never put in or take out a headphone whilst dave is on, which may cause damage.
> 
> Food for thought, mebbe


I’ve never seen that. I do it all the time so this is concerning if true.


----------



## Crgreen

JTbbb said:


> Not heard that myself either, doesn’t mean it’s not out there though! If I want to compare some music from Dave whilst listening on my tube amp, I just plug into Dave.


Rather than have the truth out there it would be nice to have it in here!


----------



## JTbbb

Crgreen said:


> Rather than have the truth out there it would be nice to have it in here!


Well if it’s out there, I’m sure it will materialise! Personally I don’t think there is anything to be concerned about.


----------



## miketlse

Amberlamps said:


> I remember Rob saying that you should never put in or take out a headphone whilst dave is on, which may cause damage.
> 
> Food for thought, mebbe


Chord mention it in the 2022 TT2 User Manual


----------



## auricgoldfinger

In case anyone is interested...Sean Jacobs DC3 for DAVE


----------



## The Jester

Where it talks about “never connecting external components” ? 
To me that’s to do with rear panel connections rather than plugging in headphones as later in the manual in section 7.2 it mentions auto detection when plugging in headphones.


----------



## eskamobob1

bmichels said:


> DAVE ?    TotalDAC D1-Dual  ?    DAVE ?    TotalDAC D1-Dual ?     DAVE ?    TotalDAC D1-Dual  ?    DAVE ?    TotalDAC D1-Dual ? .....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


only 7 years late, but d1-dual, imo, is a fairly significant step above dave. In pure raw utter resolution alone blu -> dave may be a half step above the digital -> dual, but from a wholistic point of view I dont think its even a competition. Dual is far less music picky, is willing to be offensive when it should be, has the same grand staging, and also the same amazing separation all while better utalizing the entire stage, having more accurate texture, and better overall timbre as well. I think the only real thing that _could_ be a downside is that its a little over dense/full bodied, but on a personal level, I like that a lot (if accurate is a 5, its a 5.5 while dave is more of a 3.5 imo).

I will say that I dont think you can get the chord sound elsewhere, so if you _absolutely must have_ the cord sound, go dave, but other wise the dual is a very very good shout.


----------



## miketlse

eskamobob1 said:


> only 7 years late, but d1-dual, imo, is a fairly significant step above dave. In pure raw utter resolution alone blu -> dave may be a half step above the digital -> dual, but from a wholistic point of view I dont think its even a competition. Dual is far less music picky, is willing to be offensive when it should be, has the same grand staging, and also the same amazing separation all while better utalizing the entire stage, having more accurate texture, and better overall timbre as well. I think the only real thing that _could_ be a downside is that its a little over dense/full bodied, but on a personal level, I like that a lot (if accurate is a 5, its a 5.5 while dave is more of a 3.5 imo).
> 
> I will say that I dont think you can get the chord sound elsewhere, so if you _absolutely must have_ the cord sound, go dave, but other wise the dual is a very very good shout.


You obvious enjoy it a lot, but you obviously don't understand maths or engineering.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/totaldac-dac.553677/post-7465971

Given that it is a dac implemented as a R2R , a big constraint will be the resistor manufacturing tolerances.
Based on one of Robs posts, I think it will need resistors accurate to less than the width of an atom to ensure better accuracy than one of Robs dacs.

Enjoy it anyway.


----------



## eskamobob1

miketlse said:


> You obvious enjoy it a lot, but you obviously don't understand maths or engineering.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/totaldac-dac.553677/post-7465971
> 
> Given that it is a dac implemented as a R2R , a big constraint will be the resistor manufacturing tolerances.
> ...


rofl. you sound like the kind of person who thinks an f40 is bad because its slower than a tesla. Id highly recommend you check out ASR if you want to complete write off stuff you havent heard because of an appeal to authority.


----------



## miketlse

I don't need to test that DAC, to know that the maths of the engineering implementation will yield an answer which will be the opposite of what you claim.
I don't need to appeal to authority - maths, science and engineering will suffice for me.


----------



## eskamobob1

miketlse said:


> I don't need to test that DAC, to know that the maths of the engineering implementation will yield an answer which will be the opposite of what you claim.
> I don't need to appeal to authority - maths, science and engineering will suffice for me.


Like I said. Asr would probably be  more up your alley than HF. May be worth a look


----------



## GryphonGuy

Surely we are, or should be, wise enough on this forum to be not poking a lion with a stick whilst we tell it to stop eating meat and eat the vegetables we've purchased because we think they taste better than meat.


----------



## Ciggavelli

GryphonGuy said:


> Surely we are, or should be, wise enough on this forum to be not poking a lion with a stick whilst we tell it to stop eating meat and eat the vegetables we've purchased because we think they taste better than meat.


We ain’t scared   

It’s more of an annoyance scrolling through their plethora of posts. They did flood this thread for a bit, which was unfortunate


----------



## eskamobob1

GryphonGuy said:


> Surely we are, or should be, wise enough on this forum to be not poking a lion with a stick whilst we tell it to stop eating meat and eat the vegetables we've purchased because we think they taste better than meat



Should have checked the thread the comment was in before I posted tbh. Not much Totaldac content so I kinda responded to what I could tbh


----------



## wazzupi

miketlse said:


> I don't need to test that DAC, to know that the maths of the engineering implementation will yield an answer which will be the opposite of what you claim.
> I don't need to appeal to authority - maths, science and engineering will suffice for me.


Please stop saying maths. 

Thank you


----------



## miketlse

wazzupi said:


> Please stop saying maths.
> 
> Thank you


Who has given you the power to dictate to me which words I can use?


----------



## Peti

Take it easy, big fella. He said, "please". Choose your battles; this one isn't worth it. The Dave rocks, regardless of your math.


----------



## BassicScience

Peti said:


> Take it easy, big fella. He said, "please". Choose your battles; this one isn't worth it. The Dave rocks, regardless of your math.


You guys are aware that "maths" is standard usage in Britain and Europe, right? Does saying "please" give someone license to make a silly, unreasonable request?


----------



## Reactcore (Nov 19, 2022)

Let everyone just enjoy their favorite.. whats wrong with that.. I like my MDave combo and he does the Totaldac.. thats fine ..no need convincing


----------



## Crgreen

Perhaps adding fuel to the fire, but there is Einstein’s famous dictum that not everything that can be measured is important and not everything that’s important can be measured.

One of the frustrating things about these debates is that there is no consensus on what measurements matter, how they should be taken, and their likely impact on sound quality. Without some common ground they tend to go nowhere, just a series of assertions and counter assertions.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Crgreen said:


> Perhaps adding fuel to the fire, but there is Einstein’s famous dictum that not everything that can be measured is important and not everything that’s important can be measured.
> 
> One of the frustrating things about these debates is that there is no consensus on what measurements matter, how they should be taken, and their likely impact on sound quality. Without some common ground they tend to go nowhere, just a series of assertions and counter assertions.


Many are simply measurement morons. Not all, but many.


----------



## LucyWu

(Posting in full knowledge this is off topic and should get deleted, don't want to spark adebat, just having a little facetious (and pedantic) fun on a Saturday morning...)

It's "maths" because there's more than one of 'em. No one studies "mathematic" do they?


----------



## DJW50

Perhaps DAVE envy is an undiagnosed syndrome that is yet to be officially recognised


----------



## Reactcore

DJW50 said:


> Perhaps DAVE envy is an undiagnosed syndrome that is yet to be officially recognised


Dont worry i predict a future new Ultima DAC envy.. out of most financial reach


----------



## Ciggavelli

I think it’s several things. 1) the DAVE is pricey and too expensive for many, so trashing it makes one feel better for not buying it. 2) the DAVE has been getting amazing reviews since it came out and is always on reviewers best of lists.  That makes the DAVE a target, as people like to see the mighty fall. 3) Rob is omnipresent at conferences, so he is seen as some sort of authority figure. He’s also a bit arrogant, if we’re being honest. That makes his products an easy target for people to want to take down. 4) The DAvE measures poorly in ways that ASR deems important. The cult drinks that Kool-Aid and trashes the DAVE. 

I personally love my DAVE and appreciate Rob interacting with our community. I just can see why others want to attack it.


----------



## ubs28

I really don’t care what anyone says. I’m not going to buy an other DAC as the Chord Dave is good enough really.

I compared the Chord Dave against DAC’s that were over $20.000 and the Chord Dave held it’s own back then. So I’m fine with it regardless what anyone says about the Chord Dave.


----------



## Reactcore (Nov 19, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> I think it’s several things. 1) the DAVE is pricey and too expensive for many, so trashing it makes one feel better for not buying it. 2) the DAVE has been getting amazing reviews since it came out and is always on reviewers best of lists.  That makes the DAVE a target, as people like to see the mighty fall. 3) Rob is omnipresent at conferences, so he is seen as some sort of authority figure. He’s also a bit arrogant, if we’re being honest. That makes his products an easy target for people to want to take down. 4) The DAvE measures poorly in ways that ASR deems important. The cult drinks that Kool-Aid and trashes the DAVE.
> 
> I personally love my DAVE and appreciate Rob interacting with our community. I just can see why others want to attack it.


I just totally ignored Dave in the beginning as it was out of my reach.. just didnt listen to one as it could become a obsession and i focussed on Qutest when it came.. and i was real happy with it.

Only 5 years after its release when used ones became more 'affordable' and i got unexpected funds i started to read about it and heard it first time at a seller's place.


----------



## eskamobob1 (Nov 19, 2022)

BassicScience said:


> You guys are aware that "maths" is standard usage in Britain and Europe, right? Does saying "please" give someone license to make a silly, unreasonable request?



The deceleration if independence does







But realy. Everyone should like what they like. Having had Dave and now having Totaldac the choice was easy for me which matched my preference better. Starting a crap show cause I didn't check the thread title when responding to a 8 y/o comment is my bad tbh


----------



## GuiltyRocker

eskamobob1 said:


> The deceleration if independence does
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's good that you found what you're looking for.  I found mines and Rob Watts is my boy, love his DACs.


----------



## jlbrach

Ciggavelli said:


> I think it’s several things. 1) the DAVE is pricey and too expensive for many, so trashing it makes one feel better for not buying it. 2) the DAVE has been getting amazing reviews since it came out and is always on reviewers best of lists.  That makes the DAVE a target, as people like to see the mighty fall. 3) Rob is omnipresent at conferences, so he is seen as some sort of authority figure. He’s also a bit arrogant, if we’re being honest. That makes his products an easy target for people to want to take down. 4) The DAvE measures poorly in ways that ASR deems important. The cult drinks that Kool-Aid and trashes the DAVE.
> 
> I personally love my DAVE and appreciate Rob interacting with our community. I just can see why others want to attack it.


honestly, I couldnt have said it better...perhaps encapsulation


----------



## Sampajanna

5) Lord Amir said so.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Sampajanna said:


> 5) Lord Amir said so.


Who?  😂


----------



## Sampajanna (Nov 19, 2022)

GuiltyRocker said:


> Who?  😂


Oh you haven’t heard the good news yet? The prophet has come. Let hIm save you. You don’t need to enjoy your music. Just get a cheap Chinese knock off and though it grates on your ears, know that this is only because you aren’t enlightened. Smarter machines have determined that you like the wrong things and that as you sit there hating it, you are actually enjoying it better because the SINAD is higher and because Lord Amir says so….


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Sampajanna said:


> Oh you haven’t heard the good news yet? The prophet has come. Let hIm save you. You don’t need to enjoy your music. Just get a cheap Chinese knock off and though it grates on your ears, know that this is only because you aren’t enlightened. Smarter machines have determined that you like the wrong things and that as you sit there hating it, you are actually enjoying it better because the SINAD is higher and because Lord Amir says so….


I was trying to be funny, I know the cult leader 😂


----------



## Crgreen

Ciggavelli said:


> I think it’s several things. 1) the DAVE is pricey and too expensive for many, so trashing it makes one feel better for not buying it. 2) the DAVE has been getting amazing reviews since it came out and is always on reviewers best of lists.  That makes the DAVE a target, as people like to see the mighty fall. 3) Rob is omnipresent at conferences, so he is seen as some sort of authority figure. He’s also a bit arrogant, if we’re being honest. That makes his products an easy target for people to want to take down. 4) The DAvE measures poorly in ways that ASR deems important. The cult drinks that Kool-Aid and trashes the DAVE.
> 
> I personally love my DAVE and appreciate Rob interacting with our community. I just can see why others want to attack it.


Most if not all of the things you mention may be true but I still think that, with the possible exception of point 4), it misses something. It’s an argument ad hominem, using motive to judge the accuracy of the conclusion. For me, the substantive question is what measurements matter and why they do, or don’t, not the intention behind the argument.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Crgreen said:


> Most if not all of the things you mention may be true but I still think that, with the possible exception of point 4), it misses something. It’s an argument ad hominem, using motive to judge the accuracy of the conclusion. For me, the substantive question is what measurements matter and why they do, or don’t, not the intention behind the argument.


I personally don’t think their measurements matter, aren’t actually measuring the sound quality construct, and are missing key aspects of sound quality. Their measurements are only good at assessing small portions of what sound quality actually entails.  They are next to meaningless.


----------



## Crgreen

Ciggavelli said:


> I personally don’t think their measurements matter, aren’t actually measuring the sound quality construct, and are missing key aspects of sound quality. Their measurements are only good at assessing small portions of what sound quality actually entails.  They are next to meaningless.


You may be right, as reflected in the fact that there doesn’t seem to be much overlap between the figures Rob emphasises and other figures cited.

Although there’s an element of subjectivity and taste involved, what I find more difficult to understand is the claim that one can’t hear a difference between the DAVE and other DACs. Perhaps not in short bursts but with longer listening comparison it’s pretty obvious.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Measuring distortion and using it solely to assess sound quality is like measuring seismic activity and using it solely to determine if a place is good to live or not. Sure, I want no seismic activity, but there is so much more that goes into determining if a place is good to live in or not. Plus, California has some nice cities to live in, for example.


----------



## paulrbarnard

Amberlamps said:


> I remember Rob saying that you should never put in or take out a headphone whilst dave is on, which may cause damage.
> 
> Food for thought, mebbe


Did anyone find a reference for this?  I’ve not been able to find anything stating this.


----------



## miketlse (Nov 20, 2022)

paulrbarnard said:


> Did anyone find a reference for this?  I’ve not been able to find anything stating this.


No apart from that TT2 guide that I suggested.
Amberlamps often discusses issues with Rob via PM, and did have problems with more than one TT2, so it is possible that the source was a PM rather than a public post.
Identifying the correct 'search term' is the difficult part at the moment.

I have tried a few more search terms, plus the Watts Up thread, but drawn a blank.
I am sure that I have read a similar explanation about the need to switch components off, but I cannot remember exactly where it is located.

Maybe Rob is the only person who might remember where he posted or documented the info.


----------



## jlbrach

Ciggavelli said:


> I personally don’t think their measurements matter, aren’t actually measuring the sound quality construct, and are missing key aspects of sound quality. Their measurements are only good at assessing small portions of what sound quality actually entails.  They are next to meaningless.


if measurements were the holy grail everyone would essentially produce the same product and everything would sound the same because we would have found the perfect measured sound...but it doesnt...it can be an interesting guidepost and in certain cases is obviously essential as in telling you power ratings of an amp etc but in terms of sound as far as I am concerned it is utterly useless..for me any review that spends time with all sorts of charts and explanations why one product is better than another  is less than useless and I immediately avoid them....listing the ingredients of a meal in a restaurant tell me little if anything as to how good it will be..same with measurements as far as I am concerned


----------



## stemiki (Nov 20, 2022)

paulrbarnard said:


> Did anyone find a reference for this?  I’ve not been able to find anything stating this.



Rob Watts​


Somatic said:


> Can you plug and unplug a headphone while the TT2 is on? When switching to Susvara to something like Arya I do not hear a pop or anything.
> 
> I hear this should not be done with power amp but am unsure with the TT2 in amp mode.



It's fine if there is no music playing and TT2 is silent. Never change HP connectors when music is playing, as there is a possibility of momentary shorts when plugging in/out. This advice applies to all DACs not just TT2!

Last edited: Apr 8, 2022  - Hugo TT2 Thread


----------



## Somatic

stemiki said:


> Rob Watts​
> 
> It's fine if there is no music playing and TT2 is silent. Never change HP connectors when music is playing, as there is a possibility of momentary shorts when plugging in/out. This advice applies to all DACs not just TT2!
> 
> Last edited: Apr 8, 2022  - Hugo TT2 Thread


How are you powering the Dave off a Lithium battery?


----------



## sm60

jlbrach said:


> if measurements were the holy grail everyone would essentially produce the same product and everything would sound the same because we would have found the perfect measured sound...but it doesnt...it can be an interesting guidepost and in certain cases is obviously essential as in telling you power ratings of an amp etc but in terms of sound as far as I am concerned it is utterly useless..for me any review that spends time with all sorts of charts and explanations why one product is better than another  is less than useless and I immediately avoid them....listing the ingredients of a meal in a restaurant tell me little if anything as to how good it will be..same with measurements as far as I am concerned


I think you’d be surprised by how many respectable audio designers of notable products, as well as professionals in the audio recording industry, believe that most of high end audio is, to use a phrase first used by the legendary violinist Jascha Heifetz: “high phooey and hystereo”. For example, Peter Walker, one of the most original audio minds of the 20th century and designer of the famous Quad 57 and 63 electrostatic loudspeakers, strongly believed in the supremacy of measurements. In his view, a power amplifier is completely characterized by its distortion measurements. Ohms law is all you need. When asked once about what properties he would look for in a loudspeaker cable, he famously replied that it pass current. He once boasted that Quad never listened to its famous amplifiers — the Quad II, the current dumping 405, 606, etc. — on program material,  only to their behavior on certain carefully designed noise signals, and how they handled shorts and safety issues. He felt the same way about his loudspeakers. (source: a long interview with him in TAS many years ago). To him, designing a loudspeaker was an exercise in physics. Designing an amplifier was an exercise in electrical engineering. To him, a better amplifier was one that was lighter and wasted less power.

Harbeth’s Alan Shaw, the brains behind their wildly successful line of loudspeakers, has pretty much the same view. His view is that audiophiles spend too much money on what he calls “ancillaries”, namely CD players, preamplifiers and power amplifiers. I think Alan uses Quad‘s ancient 303 amplifier, their first solid state amplifier produced 60 odd years ago, because it has textbook measurements and is basically bullet proof. He also thinks CD players are all the same, the design is so well thought out that you can’t improve it by tweaks like oversampling. If you go by measurements, it’s hard to disagree with him. A 1986 high end Sony ES CD player, e.g., the Sony xA7ES, has textbook perfect measurements. Linearity is accurate to < -100 dB. Noise is also under -100 dB. Distortion is almost unmeasurable at 0.0001% or something like that. Stereo separation exceeds 120 dB at all frequencies. Frequency response is within a tenth of a dB from 5 Hz to 20 KHZ or higher. If you hear differences between CD players or amplifiers that have textbook perfect measurements, especially through loudspeakers that have a thousand times worse distortion, then either you are simply imagining these differences or the measurements are not the whole story. I believe personally we like certain types of distortions and tend to prefer products that exhibit them.

When I was a graduate student in the mid 1980s and just bought my first CD player, a Phillips model, there was a measurements oriented magazine called Stereo Review. Their mantra was that all power amplifiers, CD players, preamplifiers etc. that weren’t actually defective in some horrible way all should sound the same. They did a famous double blind test with a group of audiophiles. They used a wide range of power amplifiers — ranging in price from a mass market Pioneer receiver at $250 to an exorbitant $12,000 Julius Futterman tube amplifier (in the mid 1980s, 12 grand was a lot of money —- my first new car cost less!). Audiophiles were allowed to listen to each amplifier and wrote down their subjective impressions, knowing what they were listening to. Then, they did a double blind test. When you knew you were listening to a fancy Futterman tube amplifier, all the audiophiles cooed over its soundstage and warmth etc. But in the all important double blind segment, no audiophile could reliably tell the difference between the cheapest power amplifier — the Pioneer receiver — and the most expensive Futterman.  

This experiment has been repeated many many times all over the world in the past 40 years. Quad once showed you could not tell the difference between a single Quad 606 vs. a whole stash of them connected in tandem with gains adjusted. Even if you look at the difference signal, output vs. input subtracted, differences vanish under double blind conditions. It’s the same in digital. In the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, many studies have been reported showing people can’t distinguish 16-bit vs 24-bit recordings.

In the professional world, where recordings are made, or for live concerts, amplifiers are very cheap. I have a pair of 200 watt Crown amplifiers that I bought from Guitar Etc. that each cost me $250. I bought them because I have a Gradient Helsinki loudspeaker that uses Speakon connectors (in the pro world, speaker connections are always made with Speakon connectors, a brilliant design that sadly didn’t take hold in high end audio). The Crown amplifiers, being designed for the pro world, use Speakon output connectors. In the pro world, all they care about is wattage. Do you have enough watts to power the venue? They’d roll on the ground laughing if you said power amplifiers actually sound different (kind of like what my colleagues at work would do if I said audiophiles believe USB cables sound different).


----------



## jlbrach

no matter to me, measurements do mean anything to me or else we would all own topping amps..actually I do but as a travel amp lol


----------



## Ragnar-BY (Nov 20, 2022)

Briefly on the topic of "how professionals laugh at audiophiles":

- Chord DAVE in the recording studio:


- Recording engineer Jared Sacks (Channel Classics), who uses van den Hul cables, mention this in his interview.

- L'Esprit Du Temps - brilliant album recorded by trptk. Furutech custom cables, Hegel amps and KEF loudspeakers in Credits section of the booklet.

It turns out that those professionals who care about sound quality do not laugh so much.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

sm60 said:


> I think you’d be surprised by how many respectable audio designers of notable products, as well as professionals in the audio recording industry, believe that most of high end audio is, to use a phrase first used by the legendary violinist Jascha Heifetz: “high phooey and hystereo”. For example, Peter Walker, one of the most original audio minds of the 20th century and designer of the famous Quad 57 and 63 electrostatic loudspeakers, strongly believed in the supremacy of measurements. In his view, a power amplifier is completely characterized by its distortion measurements. Ohms law is all you need. When asked once about what properties he would look for in a loudspeaker cable, he famously replied that it pass current. He once boasted that Quad never listened to its famous amplifiers — the Quad II, the current dumping 405, 606, etc. — on program material,  only to their behavior on certain carefully designed noise signals, and how they handled shorts and safety issues. He felt the same way about his loudspeakers. (source: a long interview with him in TAS many years ago). To him, designing a loudspeaker was an exercise in physics. Designing an amplifier was an exercise in electrical engineering. To him, a better amplifier was one that was lighter and wasted less power.
> 
> Harbeth’s Alan Shaw, the brains behind their wildly successful line of loudspeakers, has pretty much the same view. His view is that audiophiles spend too much money on what he calls “ancillaries”, namely CD players, preamplifiers and power amplifiers. I think Alan uses Quad‘s ancient 303 amplifier, their first solid state amplifier produced 60 odd years ago, because it has textbook measurements and is basically bullet proof. He also thinks CD players are all the same, the design is so well thought out that you can’t improve it by tweaks like oversampling. If you go by measurements, it’s hard to disagree with him. A 1986 high end Sony ES CD player, e.g., the Sony xA7ES, has textbook perfect measurements. Linearity is accurate to < -100 dB. Noise is also under -100 dB. Distortion is almost unmeasurable at 0.0001% or something like that. Stereo separation exceeds 120 dB at all frequencies. Frequency response is within a tenth of a dB from 5 Hz to 20 KHZ or higher. If you hear differences between CD players or amplifiers that have textbook perfect measurements, especially through loudspeakers that have a thousand times worse distortion, then either you are simply imagining these differences or the measurements are not the whole story. I believe personally we like certain types of distortions and tend to prefer products that exhibit them.
> 
> ...


I respectfully disagree, it is extremely easy for me to hear the differences in all kinds of amplifiers and speakers, CD players and preamps.  Measurements to me matter up to a point, i couldn't care less about those designers opinions you mentioned, that's their opinion and that's fine, if some don't hear a difference that's ok too, i certainly do.


----------



## DJW50

Ragnar-BY said:


> Briefly on the topic of "how professionals laugh at audiophiles":
> 
> - Chord DAVE in the recording studio:
> 
> ...



Very interesting.


----------



## Peti

These ASR guys remind me of Jehovah's witnesses for some reason. Their zealotry is unsurpassed. So I should stop saving up for a Dave and just go with the Mojo, b/c they both measure well.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Peti said:


> These ASR guys remind me of Jehovah's witnesses for some reason. Their zealotry is unsurpassed. So I should stop saving up for a Dave and just go with the Mojo, b/c they both measure well.


Hahahahahahaaha


----------



## Somatic

Ragnar-BY said:


> Briefly on the topic of "how professionals laugh at audiophiles":
> 
> - Chord DAVE in the recording studio:
> 
> ...



Also, no M-Scaler?


----------



## stemiki

Somatic said:


> How are you powering the Dave off a Lithium battery?


Yep, I haven't removed the battery since I plugged it in. It is hidden behind DAVE and recharges automatically for a few hours during the night.

I am so satisfied with the result that I could easily stop here. 

But I think it will be hard to resist the new M Scaler…


----------



## Somatic

stemiki said:


> Yep, I haven't removed the battery since I plugged it in. It is hidden behind DAVE and recharges automatically for a few hours during the night.
> 
> I am so satisfied with the result that I could easily stop here.
> 
> But I think it will be hard to resist the new M Scaler…


Which battery are you using? Wondering how you set this up? Thanks.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

stemiki said:


> Yep, I haven't removed the battery since I plugged it in. It is hidden behind DAVE and recharges automatically for a few hours during the night.
> 
> I am so satisfied with the result that I could easily stop here.
> 
> But I think it will be hard to resist the new M Scaler…


Rob is gonna come out with the new sweetness, you won't be able to resist.  😂


----------



## zen87192

Scalpel at the ready... to remove my spleen and liver to sell in order to afford to buy it!  😁


----------



## Somatic

zen87192 said:


> Scalpel at the ready... to remove my spleen and liver to sell in order to afford to buy it!  😁


Yes, I am also interested. I will be sitting back for a while though. See what people think compared to the OG and seeing if it has the same RF noise issues. I don't want to buy ferrited BNC cables if I don't have to. Plus I didn't hear a huge difference from the original Mscaler.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

zen87192 said:


> Scalpel at the ready... to remove my spleen and liver to sell in order to afford to buy it!  😁


Hahahaahhahahahahaha


----------



## Amberlamps

stemiki said:


> Rob Watts​
> 
> It's fine if there is no music playing and TT2 is silent. Never change HP connectors when music is playing, as there is a possibility of momentary shorts when plugging in/out. This advice applies to all DACs not just TT2!
> 
> Last edited: Apr 8, 2022  - Hugo TT2 Thread



I think that was what he said, something to do with plugging in and out of headphones, I also seem to recall the bit when he said all dac’s can suffer from it.


----------



## stemiki

Somatic said:


> Which battery are you using? Wondering how you set this up? Thanks.


You can find information in these previous posts of mine: 22.679 - 22.705 - 22.718

The battery was made especially for DAVE.

It is not found on the market but must be made by a specialized company. It's not easy to find someone willing to make it for you.

If you are interested, I can provide you with the contact details of the Owner and the web page of this Company, otherwise you can hear in your area if someone can make it for you.


----------



## Somatic

https://goldensound.audio/2022/03/14/chord-dave-measurements-with-mscaler/

I do like my Dave + Farad3 but I would have liked it it had measured a little better. 

@GoldenOne mentioned that Dave in DAC mode shows very low level clipping. This was ameliorated by Reducing digital input level by 1dB. 

How does one to this if they use Windows PC, Optical out and exclusive mode on Qobuz?

I guess my main gripes is the dynamic range is not the best in class and the headphone out seems to have higher distortion. I use an amp and Dave in DAC mode so I’m fine. But wish the dynamic range was higher. 

All that said. I still like the Dave a lot. Excellent timbre and sounds more vivid than other DACs. 

How does the Dave fair against something like Mola Mola? Is it all very similar at these points? Thanks.


----------



## DJJEZ

Somatic said:


> https://goldensound.audio/2022/03/14/chord-dave-measurements-with-mscaler/
> 
> I do like my Dave + Farad3 but I would have liked it it had measured a little better.
> 
> ...


Mola mola is same level as DAVE but i prefer the DAVE. i had the mola mola on home demo and wasnt impressed. It somehow sounded bright and warm at the same time lol I also prefer the holo may KTE to the tambaqui by alot.


----------



## GoldenOne

Somatic said:


> https://goldensound.audio/2022/03/14/chord-dave-measurements-with-mscaler/
> 
> I do like my Dave + Farad3 but I would have liked it it had measured a little better.
> 
> ...


This clipping only occurred some of the time, and only when outputting a constant full scale signal.
With any normal music it won't be an issue and isn't a worry.


----------



## Somatic

DJJEZ said:


> Mola mola is same level as DAVE but i prefer the DAVE. i had the mola mola on home demo and wasnt impressed. It somehow sounded bright and warm at the same time lol I also prefer the holo may KTE to the tambaqui by alot.


Thanks for the info. So what about Holo May vs Dave? Both good in different ways? Did you ever demo the Bartok?


----------



## DJJEZ

Somatic said:


> Thanks for the info. So what about Holo May vs Dave? Both good in different ways? Did you ever demo the Bartok?


I have alot to say about dave and may so will pm you.

I haven't demo'd the Bartok but I will next year along with rossini apex. I did demo the weiss 501 recently as well which was awesome.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Somatic said:


> Thanks for the info. So what about Holo May vs Dave? Both good in different ways? Did you ever demo the Bartok?





DJJEZ said:


> I have alot to say about dave and may so will pm you.
> 
> I haven't demo'd the Bartok but I will next year along with rossini apex. I did demo the weiss 501 recently as well which was awesome.



Also interested and had the same question. 

-----------

A point totally separate from the above posts, we should be able to share varying opinions in this thread. I get why we feel like we often can't, but it's annoying. Big reason I started my own thread. You can't really share anything but glaring impressions in these brand/product specific threads, which is really unfortunate. It's almost just as annoying as the ASR crap in the thread lol. Anyways, happy thanksgiving all lol


----------



## Triode User

Somatic said:


> Thanks for the info. So what about Holo May vs Dave? Both good in different ways? Did you ever demo the Bartok?


I have written before on May vs Dave having been a Dave owner since 2016 and then having bought a May for a second system previously using a Qutest.

I think the May is one of those DACs that one needs to hear to see if it will fit in with what one regards as important for sound quality. Many do think it is superb but for me it just didn’t tick any boxes and I didn’t like it at all. I sold the May after 3 weeks and never missed it. I bought a second hand Dave for not much more and that is now in my second system sounding amazing.


----------



## sm60

Somatic said:


> Thanks for the info. So what about Holo May vs Dave? Both good in different ways? Did you ever demo the Bartok?


Another DAC to consider, designed here in California, although it is quite a bit pricier than the Dave. 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...g-from-the-source-to-the-output.34897/page-11


----------



## sm60

DJJEZ said:


> Mola mola is same level as DAVE but i prefer the DAVE. i had the mola mola on home demo and wasnt impressed. It somehow sounded bright and warm at the same time lol I also prefer the holo may KTE to the tambaqui by alot.


I have about 6 DACs at home, a mixture of solid state and tube, stand alone vs integrated with a CD player or a digital amplifier, at price points separated by three orders of magnitude. I find system matching crucial with DACs, as with any other component. There’s no absolute  best DAC, and I’ve tried more than two dozen  over 30+ years, just as there’s no one best speaker. It’s all about matching the qualities of the entire system. It’s also a function of the music you like to hear. If you primarily listen to acoustic instruments or voices in a natural environment like a church or a concert hall, vs if you like electronically synthesized  rock and roll music, you might gravitate to different DACs. 

My current reference speakers in my large 6000+ sq ft room are the massive 105 dB efficient Klipsch La Scalas, a 200 pound refrigerator sized fully horn loaded system that can be comfortably driven by a two watt single-ended triode amplifier. With average listening levels around 75-80 dB, I expect my SET amplifier requires a few milliwatts of power to drive the La Scalas to room filling levels. I find a DAC that works well here is quite different from a DAC that matches  a secondary system in my dining room,  built around the Quad 2905s, a 5’ electrostatic speaker that is 25 dB less efficient than my La Scalas. In both systems, the intrinsic sound of the loudspeaker and the room dominates what you hear, so you compensate in some way by tuning the rest of the system. If you measure loudspeakers and use something like a Tact to correct for room imbalances, you quickly find that flat frequency response at the listening chair sounds dreadful. Instead, you want a gentle roll off of the highs and elevation of the bass. The standard curves built into the Tact as well as the Lyngdorf all follow this pattern. That’s why absolute measurements don’t tell the whole story. What sounds pleasing to the ear is not flat response, which sounds over bright on most recordings.


----------



## Somatic

sm60 said:


> I have about 6 DACs at home, a mixture of solid state and tube, stand alone vs integrated with a CD player or a digital amplifier, at price points separated by three orders of magnitude. I find system matching crucial with DACs, as with any other component. There’s no absolute  best DAC, and I’ve tried more than two dozen  over 30+ years, just as there’s no one best speaker. It’s all about matching the qualities of the entire system. It’s also a function of the music you like to hear. If you primarily listen to acoustic instruments or voices in a natural environment like a church or a concert hall, vs if you like electronically synthesized  rock and roll music, you might gravitate to different DACs.
> 
> My current reference speakers in my large 6000+ sq ft room are the massive 105 dB efficient Klipsch La Scalas, a 200 pound refrigerator sized fully horn loaded system that can be comfortably driven by a two watt single-ended triode amplifier. With average listening levels around 75-80 dB, I expect my SET amplifier requires a few milliwatts of power to drive the La Scalas to room filling levels. I find a DAC that works well here is quite different from a DAC that matches  a secondary system in my dining room,  built around the Quad 2905s, a 5’ electrostatic speaker that is 25 dB less efficient than my La Scalas. In both systems, the intrinsic sound of the loudspeaker and the room dominates what you hear, so you compensate in some way by tuning the rest of the system. If you measure loudspeakers and use something like a Tact to correct for room imbalances, you quickly find that flat frequency response at the listening chair sounds dreadful. Instead, you want a gentle roll off of the highs and elevation of the bass. The standard curves built into the Tact as well as the Lyngdorf all follow this pattern. That’s why absolute measurements don’t tell the whole story. What sounds pleasing to the ear is not flat response, which sounds over bright on most recordings.


Thanks for your perspective. Im impressed with you 6000 sq ft listening room . Do you own a Dave? If so, what do you pair it with?


----------



## 801evan

Somatic said:


> https://goldensound.audio/2022/03/14/chord-dave-measurements-with-mscaler/
> 
> I do like my Dave + Farad3 but I would have liked it it had measured a little better.
> 
> ...


Think that's more of a strike on the chain and/or the Farad 3 as I've had excellent playback on the Dave HP out even with the stock psu on it.


----------



## Somatic

801evan said:


> Think that's more of a strike on the chain and/or the Farad 3 as I've had excellent playback on the Dave HP out even with the stock psu on it.


I don’t hear the HP out distortion. Was just referring to the measurements. Also Farad3 is amazing ballz


----------



## 801evan

Somatic said:


> I don’t hear the HP out distortion. Was just referring to the measurements. Also Farad3 is amazing ballz


Nothing to gripe about then.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Somatic said:


> I don’t hear the HP out distortion. Was just referring to the measurements. Also Farad3 is amazing ballz


We need somebody to measure the stock DAVE, the Farad3 Dave, and the Sean Jacobs DAVE, and then compare.  We can then finally put to rest the SMPS vs LPS debate.  One side claims the LPS are much better with lower distortion and then the other side (and Rob) claim SMPS has lower distortion.  Who is right?


----------



## Ciggavelli

Also, this is the type of sh!t that should be in the DAVE 2.  Look at all the capabilities in the Mytek Empire dac.  It's crazy:

https://mytek.audio/shop/empire-streamer-dac-1#attr=10


















It's $25K.  I'm pretty interested.  No reviews or impressions I can find.  It's using off the shelf chipsets, and not a custom FPGA, but it claims the highest dynamic range ever.  If this dac sounds very good (DAVE levels or higher), I could get rid of so many boxes.


----------



## eskamobob1

Somatic said:


> @GoldenOne mentioned that Dave in DAC mode shows very low level clipping. This was ameliorated by Reducing digital input level by 1dB.
> 
> How does one to this if they use Windows PC, Optical out and exclusive mode on Qobuz?



There should be a headroom management option in qubuz. If not, you can simply reduce the volume a couple clicks in quobuz its self





Ciggavelli said:


> It's $25K. I'm pretty interested. No reviews or impressions I can find. It's using off the shelf chipsets, and not a custom FPGA, but it claims the highest dynamic range ever. If this dac sounds very good (DAVE levels or higher), I could get rid of so many boxes.


I heard it at canjam with susvara and it was quite impressive. No way to judge actual performance there but it at least made.me.think it was worth keeping on my to demo list


----------



## Reactcore

Ciggavelli said:


> Also, this is the type of sh!t that should be in the DAVE 2.  Look at all the capabilities in the Mytek Empire dac.  It's crazy:
> 
> https://mytek.audio/shop/empire-streamer-dac-1#attr=10
> 
> ...


What would i do with so many analogue inputs.. even 4 phono's?

Im using only one input on my Dave (dbnc) and 2 toslinks on my scaler (music server and tv) all others if connected only makes it more susceptible to RF noise.

I rather have my unit simple as possible


----------



## Hiker816

Ciggavelli said:


> Also, this is the type of sh!t that should be in the DAVE 2.  Look at all the capabilities in the Mytek Empire dac.  It's crazy:
> 
> https://mytek.audio/shop/empire-streamer-dac-1#attr=10
> 
> ...


Chord could incorporate many of the Mytek Empire features into the new Choral line xM-scaler, and I really hope they do.  Seems like a synergistic match to incorporate a server/streamer solution, LPS, etc.


----------



## alxw0w (Nov 25, 2022)

I don't want to destroy your dreams, unfortunately it won't happen.
New dac will be just dac (also headphone amp) and new xmscaler will be just xmscaler, no additional features like streaming/hdmi or other, sorry.


----------



## Hiker816

alxw0w said:


> I don't want to destroy your dreams, unfortunately it won't happen.
> New dac will be just dac (also headphone amp) and new xmscaler will be just xmscaller, no additional features like streaming/hdmi or other, sorry.


Do you have inside knowledge?


----------



## Ciggavelli (Nov 25, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> What would i do with so many analogue inputs.. even 4 phono's?
> 
> Im using only one input on my Dave (dbnc) and 2 toslinks on my scaler (music server and tv) all others if connected only makes it more susceptible to RF noise.
> 
> I rather have my unit simple as possible


I'm most interested in the 4 outputs.  I currently use the dave xlr output for my wa33 and the dave rca output for my 3es.  I want another output if I get an additional amp, or want to use my dac with speakers.  It would really help out a lot.


----------



## 801evan

alxw0w said:


> I don't want to destroy your dreams, unfortunately it won't happen.
> New dac will be just dac (also headphone amp) and new xmscaler will be just xmscaler, no additional features like streaming/hdmi or other, sorry.


I mean, if u want it to be a Mytek...get a Mytek. 😂 Dave is quite secured in where it is. 💪💪


----------



## alxw0w

Hiker816 said:


> Do you have inside knowledge?


No I don't.
But lets be real. Chord ditched full sized streamers some time ago. They only offer streamers for Mojo and Hugo2 which are developed by 3rd party company.
Streaming it's not something that Rob is doing.
Wishful thinking is not doing to change anything.


----------



## Ciggavelli

alxw0w said:


> No I don't.
> But lets be real. Chord ditched full sized streamers some time ago. They only offer streamers for Mojo and Hugo2 which are developed by 3rd party company.
> Streaming it's not something that Rob is doing.
> Wishful thinking is not doing to change anything.


Yup, and that makes Chord seem like an “old” company, one that doesn’t evolve with the times.  Most of Chord’s competitors have streamers and user upgradeable firmware, if not actual modular design where upgrades are easy to install. Chord unfortunately is resting on it’s laurels.  The company needs to modernize. I love the sound quality. They are good at that. But they are stuck in the past when it comes to features.  It’s unfortunate.


----------



## paulrbarnard

Ciggavelli said:


> Yup, and that makes Chord seem like an “old” company, one that doesn’t evolve with the times.  Most of Chord’s competitors have streamers and user upgradeable firmware, if not actual modular design where upgrades are easy to install. Chord unfortunately is resting on it’s laurels.  The company needs to modernize. I love the sound quality. They are good at that. But they are stuck in the past when it comes to features.  It’s unfortunate.


Or you could say they are staying true to their product and not jumping on the “me too” product roadmap. 
Putting too many features in one box invariably results in compromises and limits your options to mix and match with other devices.


----------



## Reactcore

Ciggavelli said:


> Yup, and that makes Chord seem like an “old” company, one that doesn’t evolve with the times.  Most of Chord’s competitors have streamers and user upgradeable firmware, if not actual modular design where upgrades are easy to install. Chord unfortunately is resting on it’s laurels.  The company needs to modernize. I love the sound quality. They are good at that. But they are stuck in the past when it comes to features.  It’s unfortunate.


I actually like how it is.. Dave ..and my self designed scaler.. for me is a (almost) timeless piece of kit.

All fancy features i search in a player like high resolution screen roon or fast gui i want separately ..controlled with my phone/tablet.

Im using a oldschool thinclient pc running win7 embedded with also oldschool looking foobar2k. Stable as a rock and serves me well for many years.


----------



## griff500

Ciggavelli said:


> Yup, and that makes Chord seem like an “old” company, one that doesn’t evolve with the times.  Most of Chord’s competitors have streamers and user upgradeable firmware, if not actual modular design where upgrades are easy to install. Chord unfortunately is resting on it’s laurels.  The company needs to modernize. I love the sound quality. They are good at that. But they are stuck in the past when it comes to features.  It’s unfortunate.


To produce streamers they would need to turn into a software Company and dedicate resources to creating, updating and maintaining firmware and software. I think they are unlikely to do this after their previous attempt. There are plenty of streamers on the market that are very good (I’m quite happy with my Auralic Altair G2) and there are benefits to not having a one-box solution.

I don’t see this as them not evolving - they do what they do and it’s a testament to the design of the Dave that it still excels where it counts - sound quality. I’m not sure why it would need a firmware upgrade.


----------



## alxw0w (Nov 25, 2022)

paulrbarnard said:


> Or you could say they are staying true to their product and not jumping on the “me too” product roadma


Exactly that.
Not everything needs to be the same.


----------



## LucyWu

I can see there are some technical advantages to a combined streamer and dac if well engineered, but I have zero interest in such products because I have zero interest in streaming. I don't/won't do Roon, which seems increasingly the default software option. My needs are simple and my homebrew server and a great dac are all I need. Given the trials early adopters seem to have experienced with Chord's Poly/ToYu streaming kit I don't think that is really a good approach for Chord.


----------



## griff500

LucyWu said:


> I can see there are some technical advantages to a combined streamer and dac if well engineered, but I have zero interest in such products because I have zero interest in streaming. I don't/won't do Roon, which seems increasingly the default software option. My needs are simple and my homebrew server and a great dac are all I need. Given the trials early adopters seem to have experienced with Chord's Poly/ToYu streaming kit I don't think that is really a good approach for Chord.


If you aren’t already a software company then it’s a big commitment to try and become one and it’s not something you can do in a half-arsed way, as I think they discovered with the example you mentioned.


----------



## Jawed

sm60 said:


> My current reference speakers in my large 6000+ sq ft room are the massive 105 dB efficient Klipsch La Scalas, a 200 pound refrigerator sized fully horn loaded system that can be comfortably driven by a two watt single-ended triode amplifier.


You tempted by OMA?:

https://oswaldsmillaudio.com/imperia

OMA makes amplifiers to match, too:

https://oswaldsmillaudio.com/special-k


----------



## Arniesb

Ciggavelli said:


> We need somebody to measure the stock DAVE, the Farad3 Dave, and the Sean Jacobs DAVE, and then compare.  We can then finally put to rest the SMPS vs LPS debate.  One side claims the LPS are much better with lower distortion and then the other side (and Rob) claim SMPS has lower distortion.  Who is right?


In past couple of years switched ps improved a lot. Mola mola, chinese dacs and many other dacs beat Dave in terms of power supply noise by a big margins these days.
This area definetely can use some improvements.
Maybe transient resonse of linear power supply is what makes a difference when comparing after market power supplies?


----------



## Reactcore

Arniesb said:


> In past couple of years switched ps improved a lot. Mola mola, chinese dacs and many other dacs beat Dave in terms of power supply noise by a big margins these days.
> This area definetely can use some improvements.
> Maybe transient resonse of linear power supply is what makes a difference when comparing after market power supplies?


That maybe true for the smps module in Dave.. but the actual supply noise filtering is implemented after it on the main PCB which is well engineered.


----------



## Arniesb

Reactcore said:


> That maybe true for the smps module in Dave.. but the actual supply noise filtering is implemented after it on the main PCB which is well engineered.


Still, you can see on measurements that Mola mola tambaqui dac is noticably better snr and while we cant probably hear all these super low thd+noise levels we can sure as hell can hear the noise.
Dont know if difference is noticable in real life, but improvement can be made in that regard.


----------



## 801evan

Even Tambaqui isn't immuned despite measurements so really, measurements doesn't mean anything. Tambaqui still needs a lot of ipurifiers, like everything else. 🤪


----------



## Ragnar-BY

Somatic said:


> what about Holo May vs Dave?


Just try both. It's hard to predict which one you will like better. There are many people who thinks that DAVE is still superior and there are people who sold their DAVEs after listening to May.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

griff500 said:


> To produce streamers they would need to turn into a software Company and dedicate resources to creating, updating and maintaining firmware and software. I think they are unlikely to do this after their previous attempt. There are plenty of streamers on the market that are very good (I’m quite happy with my Auralic Altair G2) and there are benefits to not having a one-box solution.
> 
> I don’t see this as them not evolving - they do what they do and it’s a testament to the design of the Dave that it still excels where it counts - sound quality. I’m not sure why it would need a firmware upgrade.


Exactly, not really needed when so many other streamers are out there.  Chord is cutting edge in other ways, like the Pulse Array tech and the WTA filters.  The Mytek looks nice, but it's limited to the off the shelf Chips, not interested.  To me it's not worth it at all.


----------



## alxw0w (Nov 25, 2022)

Just a small note on the Dave vs May topic.
With all the impressions there should be word about if May was used as NOS or with external upsampling (like HQPlayer).

NOS sound is very very different to upsampled sound hence impressions could differ vastly from one person to other.

ps. not saying that one is better than the other, just keep in mind that there is a big difference when upsampling is used and choose your poison


----------



## 801evan (Nov 25, 2022)

alxw0w said:


> Just a small note on the Dave vs May topic.
> With all the impressions there should be word about if May was used as NOS or with external upsampling (like HQPlayer).
> 
> NOS sound is very very different to upsampled sound hence impressions could differ vastly from one person to other.
> ...


So funny how Holo couldn't get the oversampling right so they just say NOS is better...but, you haven't really heard the May if you don't do HQPLAYER oversampling.  🤡🤡🤡🤡...and maybe over i2s on a HDMI cable that acts like an antenna and has no error correction. And how obsessed they are about bit perfect but will oversample it anyways.


----------



## DJW50

I must admit like the idea of each device doing what it's best at. I have my Auralic Aries G1 as my streamer, then my new DAVE (which I chose above the Mola Mola over a recent 3 day home test) then this goes into my Pathos Inpol Ear to my Utopia's. 
I liike the fact I have in mind the upgrade for my Auralic later in time but the rest will be long term owners.


----------



## audio_1

Reactcore said:


> I actually like how it is.. Dave ..and my self designed scaler.. for me is a (almost) timeless piece of kit.
> 
> All fancy features i search in a player like high resolution screen roon or fast gui i want separately ..controlled with my phone/tablet.
> 
> Im using a oldschool thinclient pc running win7 embedded with also oldschool looking foobar2k. Stable as a rock and serves me well for many years.


The Dave 2 requires only 1 input imho, an optical input for the new mScaler. Dual optical inputs to the Dave from the Mscaler using the Opto-DX are absolutely brilliant. I have absolutely no brightness inducing fatigue in my system. Just pure natural sound. All digital inputs should be on the mScaler to prevent noise entering the Dave. Dave 2 requires a high resolution optical input for the mScaler. MSB are doing this with their digital director. It would be good too if the mScaler had digital equalisation like Mojo 2, but with more equaliser bands. Another useful feature for the Dave 2 would also be a reduced analogue output voltage level or gain so that excessive output attenuation hasn't to be applied in the digital domain. I currently listen to the Dave and Mscaler at -45 dB. The TT2 already has variable gain.


----------



## Reactcore

audio_1 said:


> The Dave 2 requires only 1 input imho, an optical input for the new mScaler. Dual optical inputs to the Dave from the Mscaler using the Opto-DX are absolutely brilliant. I have absolutely no brightness inducing fatigue in my system. Just pure natural sound. All digital inputs should be on the mScaler to prevent noise entering the Dave. Dave 2 requires a high resolution optical input for the mScaler. MSB are doing this with their digital director. It would be good too if the mScaler had digital equalisation like Mojo 2, but with more equaliser bands. Another useful feature for the Dave 2 would also be a reduced analogue output voltage level or gain so that excessive output attenuation hasn't to be applied in the digital domain. I currently listen to the Dave and Mscaler at -45 dB. The TT2 already has variable gain.


Its remarkable to see MSB is now also focussing on digital filtering and optical rf rejection.. leaving their DA section the same 
It means were not talking nonsense here


----------



## audio_1

Reactcore said:


> Its remarkable to see MSB is now also focussing on digital filtering and optical rf rejection.. leaving their DA section the same
> It means were not talking nonsense here


It certainty is. We were ahead here, with the Opto-dx and now your mScaler choral conversion. I saw the MSB digital director in Munich last May at the High End Show. It uses 10 km SFP modules with OS2 LC-LC single mode fibre. I specified these for my own network a few years ago. The 10 km SFP modules are the shortest range single mode fibre SFP modules available. Hopefully Rob will do something similar on Dave 2 and the new mScaler. Although ST fibre, (preferably single mode) as used by yourself and Emm Labs is probably simpler.


----------



## Reactcore (Nov 25, 2022)

audio_1 said:


> It certainty is. We were ahead here, with the Opto-dx and now your mScaler choral conversion. I saw the MSB digital director in Munich last May at the High End Show. It uses 10 km SFP modules with OS2 LC-LC single mode fibre. I specified these for my own network a few years ago. The 10 km SFP modules are the shortest range single mode fibre SFP modules available. Hopefully Rob will do something similar on Dave 2 and the new mScaler. Although ST fibre, (preferably single mode) as used by yourself and Emm Labs is probably simpler.


I did alot with industrial grade fibers in my career as a CCTV engineer starting with analog modulated signals

Singlemode (9um) was and is used for long distance transport upto 50km while multimode (50 & 62.5um) is used to about 2km.. my cable is a laughable 1m..
Chord's DBNC link runs at 50mbit per output
Thats half of a standard FX ethernet.

MM has more than enough bandwidth.
SM would be ovetkill for this and wont add any bennefit.. its only for multi Gbit networking or long distances.


----------



## SteveHulk (Nov 25, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> I did alot with industrial grade fibers in my career as a CCTV engineer starting with analog modulated signals
> 
> Singlemode (9um) was and is used for long distance transport upto 50km while multimode (50 & 62.5um) is used to about 2km.. my cable is a laughable 1m..
> Chord's DBNC link runs at 50mbit per output
> ...


It's really looking like in applications where it's about transmitting digital signals rather than analogue or power that optical could be the way things might go. The main issue, as I see it, is the longevity of the optical modules. In the comms industry they seem to address this by having plug-in optical modules that can be quickly swapped out if they fail.

The cable manufacturers would hate this 😂


----------



## jlbrach

Reactcore said:


> I actually like how it is.. Dave ..and my self designed scaler.. for me is a (almost) timeless piece of kit.
> 
> All fancy features i search in a player like high resolution screen roon or fast gui i want separately ..controlled with my phone/tablet.
> 
> Im using a oldschool thinclient pc running win7 embedded with also oldschool looking foobar2k. Stable as a rock and serves me well for many years.


I like separates, much easier to upgrade if one part of the chain is outdated...right now I have an innuous streamer with my dave/blu2 and it works well for me....all in ones are always attractive on paper but not so much in reality


----------



## GryphonGuy

Reactcore said:


> I did alot with industrial grade fibers in my career as a CCTV engineer starting with analog modulated signals
> 
> Singlemode (9um) was and is used for long distance transport upto 50km while multimode (50 & 62.5um) is used to about 2km.. my cable is a laughable 1m..
> Chord's DBNC link runs at 50mbit per output
> ...



You've clearly not heard audio transported over the Single Mode fibre with 1310nm wavelength versus Multi-mode fibre with 850nm wavelength to say there would be no benefit. Coming from an IT background, I thought so too but I had a cacophony of people imploring me to try single-mode with 1310nm transceivers. The upshot of my testing was that I replaced all my Multi-mode fibre with Single-mode. The difference is that stark and unsubtle. YMMV.


----------



## muski

DJW50 said:


> I must admit like the idea of each device doing what it's best at. I have my Auralic Aries G1 as my streamer, then my new DAVE (which I chose above the Mola Mola over a recent 3 day home test) then this goes into my Pathos Inpol Ear to my Utopia's.
> I liike the fact I have in mind the upgrade for my Auralic later in time but the rest will be long term owners.


Yes, I feel the same way. I find a highly-resolving DAC live the DAVE is very sensitive to its streamer. I pair my M Scaler + DAVE with a Sonore opticalRendu for streaming and an Innuos Phoenix USB for re-clocking.

I've also tried the internal wifi and ethernet streaming options built into my Devialet Expert 1000 Pro Dual. Though they're fine, neither come close to the quality I get feeding it with the opticalRendu.

Building a DAVE-worthy streamer is no mean feat.


----------



## miketlse

GryphonGuy said:


> You've clearly not heard audio transported over the Single Mode fibre with 1310nm wavelength versus Multi-mode fibre with 850nm wavelength to say there would be no benefit. Coming from an IT background, I thought so too but I had a cacophony of people imploring me to try single-mode with 1310nm transceivers. The upshot of my testing was that I replaced all my Multi-mode fibre with Single-mode. The difference is that stark and unsubtle. YMMV.


How does changing the mode, change the analogue music output?


----------



## muski

GryphonGuy said:


> You've clearly not heard audio transported over the Single Mode fibre with 1310nm wavelength versus Multi-mode fibre with 850nm wavelength to say there would be no benefit. Coming from an IT background, I thought so too but I had a cacophony of people imploring me to try single-mode with 1310nm transceivers. The upshot of my testing was that I replaced all my Multi-mode fibre with Single-mode. The difference is that stark and unsubtle. YMMV.


I had a similar experience and recently switched from multimode to singlemode. 

I'm also loving the newly-released Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe fiber-to-ethernet converter. It replaced a $20 TP-Link media converter—which was (unsurprisingly) super noisy (even with a good LPS).


----------



## audio_1

GryphonGuy said:


> You've clearly not heard audio transported over the Single Mode fibre with 1310nm wavelength versus Multi-mode fibre with 850nm wavelength to say there would be no benefit. Coming from an IT background, I thought so too but I had a cacophony of people imploring me to try single-mode with 1310nm transceivers. The upshot of my testing was that I replaced all my Multi-mode fibre with Single-mode. The difference is that stark and unsubtle. YMMV.


I selected single mode fibre as in the context of Audio components the OS2 LC SFP modules and single mode fibre is still relatively good value at only a few hundred euro. I'm also using single mode fibre cables with the Opto-Dx.


----------



## audio_1

My fibre link from the router to the Melco S100 switch consist of Single mode LC UPC to LC UPC Duplex OS2 fibre and SFP modules. I use Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFP modules and a Corning 40402G5Z20020M LC Duplex to LC Duplex, SMF-28® Ultra OS2, 20 m fibre patch cord


----------



## Reactcore (Nov 27, 2022)

GryphonGuy said:


> You've clearly not heard audio transported over the Single Mode fibre with 1310nm wavelength versus Multi-mode fibre with 850nm wavelength to say there would be no benefit. Coming from an IT background, I thought so too but I had a cacophony of people imploring me to try single-mode with 1310nm transceivers. The upshot of my testing was that I replaced all my Multi-mode fibre with Single-mode. The difference is that stark and unsubtle. YMMV.


Yes i have.. using SFP's and SC with my test setup. I used broadcom 1310nm modules.

I doubt you heard the DBNC link over SM fibers which is not IP based.. You are mistaken it with network ethernet data transmission i think.

See here what im talking about:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/my-choral-housed-chord-mscaler.964931/post-17173702


----------



## muski (Nov 27, 2022)

miketlse said:


> How does changing the mode, change the analogue music output?


To my ears, with the singlemode cable I heard more detail without more harshness, and the usual sound characteristics of  lower RF noise.

But this is a tough area to assess as apart from the DAC & streamer, there are a lot of factors at play including the fiber cable & connector quality, the specific SFPs (single vs multi, 1G vs 10Gb, etc.), the fiber media converter & its power supply—and even the quality of the Ethernet signal feeding the fiber media converter (e.g. I use an Innuos PhoenixNET).

So very much a case where everyone’s results may vary, and deference is needed to other’s setups and ears.

cheers,
muski


----------



## sm60

Fans of the M-Scaler might “enjoy“ reading its review on ASR.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-m-scaler-review-upsampler.35498/

Review summary: 

*“Conclusions*
I was very disappointed to see high noise levels and jitter on Coax outputs of such an expensive digital products. And one where its designer claims you can hear problems at 300 dBFS. Well, if you can hear that well, then maybe you can hear this jitter too so I suggest not releasing a product that performs this bad. Second, there is a serious compatibility issue with third-part DAC that I tested. Maybe it is OK with other DACs, I don't know. But grabbing a sample DAC and having such serious degradation in its performance with M-scaler is very concerning.

Putting design issues aside, I found no audible difference in upsampling with company's own DAC. As it should be. The differences in the filter are above audible band so they should not be audible. Is it nice to have a sharper filter? Sure. But I sure as heck wouldn't pay nearly $6,000 to get that.

Bottom line, I don't see a reason to own M-Scaler. It can damage the audio signal in some cases and in others, provide no audible benefit. If people think otherwise, I highly suggest performing a blind test with enough repetition to provide statistically valid results. Otherwise, the M-scaler remains as a product with no purpose.”

Ouch! That’s a hard hitting review! 😥


----------



## Ciggavelli

sm60 said:


> Fans of the M-Scaler might “enjoy“ reading its review on ASR.
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-m-scaler-review-upsampler.35498/
> 
> ...


We still listening to ASR in 2022?


----------



## Spawn300Z

Ciggavelli said:


> We still listening to ASR in 2022?


----------



## jlbrach

sm60 said:


> Fans of the M-Scaler might “enjoy“ reading its review on ASR.
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-m-scaler-review-upsampler.35498/
> 
> ...


why would anyone pay attention to this site?


----------



## griff500

sm60 said:


> Fans of the M-Scaler might “enjoy“ reading its review on ASR.


Not only is it old news but this is the Dave thread.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

sm60 said:


> I found no audible difference in upsampling with company's own DAC



I always knew that Amirm do not have a very good ear for music, but I never expected that it is that bad 🤣 

He can’t hear the difference between the HMS modes, but have enough self-confidence to write reviews. I can't stop laughing 🤣


----------



## griff500

Ragnar-BY said:


> I always knew that Amirm do not have a very good ear for music, but I never expected that it is that bad 🤣
> 
> He can’t hear the difference between the HMS modes, but have enough self-confidence to write reviews. I can't stop laughing 🤣


It helps when you rig the test and only test 2x as well. 

Ok, I shouldn't be adding to this... No more ASR-related posts, I promise!!


----------



## ufospls2

sm60 said:


> Fans of the M-Scaler might “enjoy“ reading its review on ASR.
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-m-scaler-review-upsampler.35498/
> 
> ...


Yeah, this was posted back in July in the Mscaler thread. I don't see any point in posting it again for what seems like the 25th time, especially in the DAVE thread where it comes off as looking for trouble/a fight/mischievousness. I'm not saying its overall wrong to discuss amir and his views, its just so tedious when it contaminates multiple interesting threads for literally _months._


----------



## GryphonGuy

miketlse said:


> How does changing the mode, change the analogue music output?



I don't know but my ears tell me there is a huge difference.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Ragnar-BY said:


> I always knew that Amirm do not have a very good ear for music, but I never expected that it is that bad 🤣
> 
> He can’t hear the difference between the HMS modes, but have enough self-confidence to write reviews. I can't stop laughing 🤣


It really is hilarious.  This guy also claims he was able to hear differences in file compression methods, really funny.  Yet, this guy can't hear a difference between DACs, or oversampling modes, I can't make this stuff up!  Truly hilarious!


----------



## LisaShayBrown

Hi everyone!  I'm new here and am thinking of getting an mscaler and a dave.  But I've read so many posts now and it looks like people don't like the sound unless one adds all kinds of expensive cables, adaptors, junction boxes, power supplies, and all manner of stuff.  


My question is can you just buy a mscaler and dave and get great sound out of the box or does it sound pretty obiously lame unless you do a zillion expensive system mods?


I live in a very rural area so I can't test listen to them.  


TIA!


----------



## 801evan

LisaShayBrown said:


> Hi everyone!  I'm new here and am thinking of getting an mscaler and a dave.  But I've read so many posts now and it looks like people don't like the sound unless one adds all kinds of expensive cables, adaptors, junction boxes, power supplies, and all manner of stuff.
> 
> 
> My question is can you just buy a mscaler and dave and get great sound out of the box or does it sound pretty obiously lame unless you do a zillion expensive system mods?
> ...


This applies to any device that is transparent and of high performance. I haven't experienced a high end device that makes itself immune to a lower quality device before it.


----------



## FunkyBassMan

sm60 said:


> Fans of the M-Scaler might “enjoy“ reading its review on ASR.
> 
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-m-scaler-review-upsampler.35498/
> 
> ...


*"Conclusions*

I was very disappointed to see the the dark color of such an expensive unit.  Dark is the color of space, and everyone knows there is no sound in space. 

But just to be fair, I put my analysis meter (the Radio Shack Kids-200 EZ Battery Tester, which I calibrated this morning by the moon) across the mains leads and it literally burned up in my hand!  Dangerous! 

Furthermore, the M-Scaler box is the same size as the TT2, so it obviously contains the same things.  If you already have a DAVE, there is absolutely no reason to waste your money a second DAC.  

But the kicker is that the M-Scaler also doesn't even have any audio outputs!  So it's clearly impossible for it to affect the audio.  

Bottom line, this piece is a rip-off and a product with no purpose."


----------



## griff500

LisaShayBrown said:


> Hi everyone!  I'm new here and am thinking of getting an mscaler and a dave.  But I've read so many posts now and it looks like people don't like the sound unless one adds all kinds of expensive cables, adaptors, junction boxes, power supplies, and all manner of stuff.
> 
> 
> My question is can you just buy a mscaler and dave and get great sound out of the box or does it sound pretty obiously lame unless you do a zillion expensive system mods?
> ...


People like to tinker and improve things but it’s exceptional out of the box.


----------



## LisaShayBrown

Thank you, that's what I was hoping to find out.


----------



## DJW50

LisaShayBrown said:


> Hi everyone!  I'm new here and am thinking of getting an mscaler and a dave.  But I've read so many posts now and it looks like people don't like the sound unless one adds all kinds of expensive cables, adaptors, junction boxes, power supplies, and all manner of stuff.
> 
> 
> My question is can you just buy a mscaler and dave and get great sound out of the box or does it sound pretty obiously lame unless you do a zillion expensive system mods?
> ...


I've just upgraded from a Qutest to a DAVE and in all honesty the music you hear is so good I'm not in any hurry to buy such things as the M Scaler and the expensive leads.
One thing I'll probably do in the future is maybe the Farad power supply.
I've no doubt people will want to go down the route of M Scaler and the expensive interconnects that are needed to do it justice but for me just re-listening to my music collection all the way through again is enough for me.


----------



## LisaShayBrown

DJW50 said:


> I've just upgraded from a Qutest to a DAVE and in all honesty the music you hear is so good I'm not in any hurry to buy such things as the M Scaler and the expensive leads.
> One thing I'll probably do in the future is maybe the Farad power supply.
> I've no doubt people will want to go down the route of M Scaler and the expensive interconnects that are needed to do it justice but for me just re-listening to my music collection all the way through again is enough for me.


Thank you for your thoughts.  Confidence-inspring.


----------



## griff500

LisaShayBrown said:


> Thank you, that's what I was hoping to find out.


What source device will you be using?


----------



## LisaShayBrown

griff500 said:


> What source device will you be using?


Just my laptop (Macbook) with qobuz


----------



## Lgn3

LisaShayBrown said:


> Hi everyone!  I'm new here and am thinking of getting an mscaler and a dave.  But I've read so many posts now and it looks like people don't like the sound unless one adds all kinds of expensive cables, adaptors, junction boxes, power supplies, and all manner of stuff.
> 
> 
> My question is can you just buy a mscaler and dave and get great sound out of the box or does it sound pretty obiously lame unless you do a zillion expensive system mods?
> ...


Most of the people who have done what you describe had the DAVE for years and raved about its SQ before messing with power supplies etc. As far as the MScaler is concerned there are some who hear no difference so it really would be better to listen before buying. Why not buy DAVE and after some weeks of listening try and listen to one paired with an MScaler. If you must buy both together it is worth replacing the supplied bnc cables with something well made but inexpensive. A search on this forum will give you some ideas.


----------



## SteveHulk (Dec 3, 2022)

LisaShayBrown said:


> Hi everyone!  I'm new here and am thinking of getting an mscaler and a dave.  But I've read so many posts now and it looks like people don't like the sound unless one adds all kinds of expensive cables, adaptors, junction boxes, power supplies, and all manner of stuff.
> 
> 
> My question is can you just buy a mscaler and dave and get superb sound out of the box or does it sound pretty obiously lame unless you do a zillion expensive system mods?
> ...


Yes you can just buy them and get great sound out of the box. They are very very far from sounding "obviously lame." 

You don't need an extra amp; with headphones you can have very good listening straightaway.

The system mods you mention make a great sound even better. They can be done piecemeal or not at all as you choose.

The DAVE + mscaler will form the core of an excellent system for many years to come.

Chord's service ethic means you'll get support for a long time, in the rare event that you'll ever need it.

In your position, I'd grab the Dave and mscaler.


----------



## LisaShayBrown

SteveHulk said:


> Yes you can just buy them and get great sound out of the box. They are very very far from sounding "obviously lame."
> 
> You don't need an extra amp; with headphones you can have very good listening straightaway.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice!


----------



## pichler

Hi, you will be very impressed with the sound of the Dave. I still am after months. Wait until you buy the scaler, in the meantime you "learn to listen". I've been a lifelong Apple fan but I have to admit that after experiencing how a Window laptop sounds, I bought one. I guess the difference is given by the drivers needed on Win.
In any case, I find Audirvana Studio very interesting.
Congratulations and welcome


----------



## LisaShayBrown

pichler said:


> Hi, you will be very impressed with the sound of the Dave. I still am after months. Wait until you buy the scaler, in the meantime you "learn to listen". I've been a lifelong Apple fan but I have to admit that after experiencing how a Window laptop sounds, I bought one. I guess the difference is given by the drivers needed on Win.
> In any case, I find Audirvana Studio very interesting.
> Congratulations and welcome


THank you!!


----------



## griff500

LisaShayBrown said:


> Just my laptop (Macbook) with qobuz


At some point you might want to try a dedicated streamer (I use Auralic but there are plenty of options). I’d be tempted to get that instead of the M-Scaler to start with.

Qobuz is good though.


----------



## LisaShayBrown

griff500 said:


> At some point you might want to try a dedicated streamer (I use Auralic but there are plenty of options). I’d be tempted to get that instead of the M-Scaler to start with.
> 
> Qobuz is good though.


Thanks!


----------



## DJW50

griff500 said:


> At some point you might want to try a dedicated streamer (I use Auralic but there are plenty of options). I’d be tempted to get that instead of the M-Scaler to start with.
> 
> Qobuz is good though.


I agree, originally I was streaming my Amazon HD through a new iPad I then bought an Auralic Aries G1 and will never look back superb bit of kit.


----------



## kawhia

Even a second hand Auralic Aries for 400-500€ is an excellent choice for a streamer.


----------



## paulrbarnard

LisaShayBrown said:


> Thank you, that's what I was hoping to find out.


I have a standard DAVE and absolutely love it. The joy of the DAVE though is it’s transparency which means you can add an amp to the chain or the prescaler or other source and get the feel of those components coming through. 

As with just about anything in life you can always upgrade and again the DAVE seems to respond to that treatment well, though for me it doesn’t need ‘more’. Upgrading the DAVE is very much in the realm of diminishing returns and be cautious of the ‘night and day’ difference people hear. This is a hobby prone to grandiose over statements. For sure there are changes in the sound to be had but non that are essential for the DAVE.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

paulrbarnard said:


> I have a standard DAVE and absolutely love it. The joy of the DAVE though is it’s transparency which means you can add an amp to the chain or the prescaler or other source and get the feel of those components coming through.
> 
> As with just about anything in life you can always upgrade and again the DAVE seems to respond to that treatment well, though for me it doesn’t need ‘more’. Upgrading the DAVE is very much in the realm of diminishing returns and be cautious of the ‘night and day’ difference people hear. This is a hobby prone to grandiose over statements. For sure there are changes in the sound to be had but non that are essential for the DAVE.


That's true, many make claims that don't seem to be in reality.  I use my Chord DAC with the M Scaler and all I did was upgrade the cables, the BNC cables that came with the unit seem very cheap, that's all that needs to be done and you don't have to spend an arm and a leg, I don't think it makes sense to spend $4k on BNC cables, but that's just me.


----------



## DJW50

kawhia said:


> Even a second hand Auralic Aries for 400-500€ is an excellent choice for a streamer.


Are you sure about the pric, cheapest I've seen an Aries G1 is £1300 and that's still a bargain


----------



## griff500

DJW50 said:


> Are you sure about the pric, cheapest I've seen an Aries G1 is £1300 and that's still a bargain


Aries Mini can be had for that money and it uses the same LDS interface. Excellent bit of kit for the money.


----------



## kawhia (Dec 3, 2022)

DJW50 said:


> Are you sure about the pric, cheapest I've seen an Aries G1 is £1300 and that's still a bargain



I mean the Aries, not G1. It is older, not sure if it is the predecessor of the G1. I got mine for around 500€. Hifishark lists several around 700 to 800. It is an excellent streamer for the money, but I have not compared it soundwise to anything more expensive, except the Grimm Mu1, but that is an entirely different device.
https://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/auralic/1.html

edit I may have been a little optimistic with the price. It is more 700 to 800, sometimes less.


----------



## kawhia

griff500 said:


> Aries Mini can be had for that money and it uses the same LDS interface. Excellent bit of kit for the money.


There is the Aries, Aries femto and the Aries mini.. price descends in this order. The first two are streamers only. The Mini has an inbuilt dac and is pretty cheap. I was talking about the Aries.


----------



## number1sixerfan

LisaShayBrown said:


> Hi everyone!  I'm new here and am thinking of getting an mscaler and a dave.  But I've read so many posts now and it looks like people don't like the sound unless one adds all kinds of expensive cables, adaptors, junction boxes, power supplies, and all manner of stuff.
> 
> 
> My question is can you just buy a mscaler and dave and get great sound out of the box or does it sound pretty obiously lame unless you do a zillion expensive system mods?
> ...



As others have mentioned, it sounds excellent right out of the box. I've experimented with a lot and have also had nothing but the stock unit and cables right out of the box. The Mscaler is indeed a nice add, but to be honest the difference is not huge at all imo--definitely worth exploring if you want in the future, but not a must have at all imo. And in my opinion, all of the other upgrades and changes beyond that are quite a bit smaller (definitely excluding power conditioning and power supply upgrades here). 

Also as someone else mentioned, I would look into better cables if you can (usually can find for really good prices in the classifieds), mainly because you can deal with some drop out issues with the stock cables.. but again you can definitely get by with them and especially if you give the Dave enough space away from other devices. But besides that, people are just tinkering lol, and there's nothing wrong with that. With the cost of the Dave, many are just trying to optimize its performance as much as possible, I do truly get it.


----------



## Reactcore

@LisaShayBrown 
As others already said.. no worries ..stock Dave blows your mind theres no question about it.. it does already 7 years and Chord is not going to replace it soon. (It will come a DAC in Chords Ultima lineup though)  

With Mscaler you might want to wait cause it will very likely come a new version of it next year.


----------



## Triode User

Reactcore said:


> With Mscaler you might want to wait cause it will very likely come a new version of it next year.


And with a (much?) higher price area as well. . . .


----------



## Powersquat

Triode User said:


> And with a (much?) higher price area as well. . . .



Indeed, it will be interesting to see where the new MScaler will be priced, if an analogy were to be drawn with the TT2 and the present MScaler , currently there is a £1,000 differential between The TT2 and MScaler.

Presumably the same would apply with the Choral range, hopefully the price differential may be even greater with the more expensive products, but that may well be wishful thinking.


----------



## nkj1

Hello Everyone,

New here. Just bought a Dave several months ago and I am very impressed thus far. I have moved quickly to go to a full Farad power supply set up as well. I feel it makes a fundamental positive difference.

Looking to take the next step with an M Scaler but there seems to be a few dissidents amongst those that find it favourable. If I can't find one to try I may have to buy and re-sell if it does not work for me.

Glad to learn here on the Dave thread.


----------



## audio_1

LisaShayBrown said:


> Hi everyone!  I'm new here and am thinking of getting an mscaler and a dave.  But I've read so many posts now and it looks like people don't like the sound unless one adds all kinds of expensive cables, adaptors, junction boxes, power supplies, and all manner of stuff.
> 
> 
> My question is can you just buy a mscaler and dave and get great sound out of the box or does it sound pretty obiously lame unless you do a zillion expensive system mods?
> ...


Some of the best digital that I have heard was from a straight Dave and also the Dave and Mscaler. That's why I bought them. No digital cable tweaks or power supplies. It sounds better obviously with an upgraded power supply and optical connections to the Mscaler but these aren't mandatory. Owners like improving their systems with time.


----------



## LisaShayBrown

audio_1 said:


> Some of the best digital that I have heard was from a straight Dave and also the Dave and Mscaler. That's why I bought them. No digital cable tweaks or power supplies. It sounds better obviously with an upgraded power supply and optical connections to the Mscaler but these aren't mandatory. Owners like improving their systems with time.


Thanks!


----------



## LisaShayBrown

Reactcore said:


> @LisaShayBrown
> As others already said.. no worries ..stock Dave blows your mind theres no question about it.. it does already 7 years and Chord is not going to replace it soon. (It will come a DAC in Chords Ultima lineup though)
> 
> With Mscaler you might want to wait cause it will very likely come a new version of it next year.


Thanks!


----------



## DJW50

Reactcore said:


> @LisaShayBrown
> As others already said.. no worries ..stock Dave blows your mind theres no question about it.. it does already 7 years and Chord is not going to replace it soon. (It will come a DAC in Chords Ultima lineup though)
> 
> With Mscaler you might want to wait cause it will very likely come a new version of it next year.


Yes and let's hope it can use standard interconnects rather than the rather expensive ones the current one uses. With luck I'll have saved up enough money to buy the next version.


----------



## nkj1

I have a Mola Mola Tambuqui right next to my Dave with Farad power supplies. It is a very competent DAC.

However, Dave on used market and comparing between these two- I choose DAVE for now. More to come on this. I wonder how far Dave might pull ahead with M scaler or if it is worth the additional investment at this point.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

nkj1 said:


> I have a Mola Mola Tambuqui right next to my Dave with Farad power supplies. It is a very competent DAC.
> 
> However, Dave on used market and comparing between these two- I choose DAVE for now. More to come on this. I wonder how far Dave might pull ahead with M scaler or if it is worth the additional investment at this point.


Can you elaborate on why you chose the DAVE over the Mola Mola Tambaqui?  I hear the Tambaqui is overly smooth and doesn't have that attack the DAVE has, is this the case?


----------



## DJW50

nkj1 said:


> I have a Mola Mola Tambuqui right next to my Dave with Farad power supplies. It is a very competent DAC.
> 
> However, Dave on used market and comparing between these two- I choose DAVE for now. More to come on this. I wonder how far Dave might pull ahead with M scaler or if it is worth the additional investment at this point.


Me too, I had them both at home on test for three days and couldn't really decide which I preferred. On the final day I decided the DAVE just had the edge with separation/detail. So it was down to who could do the best deal but I had a slight bias towards the DAVE so when I was offered a good deal on the DAVE I took it.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

DJW50 said:


> Me too, I had them both at home on test for three days and couldn't really decide which I preferred. On the final day I decided the DAVE just had the edge with separation/detail. So it was down to who could do the best deal but I had a slight bias towards the DAVE so when I was offered a good deal on the DAVE I took it.


Excellent choice


----------



## nkj1

GuiltyRocker said:


> Excellent choice


Thanks- Likewise!


----------



## nkj1

GuiltyRocker said:


> Can you elaborate on why you chose the DAVE over the Mola Mola Tambaqui?  I hear the Tambaqui is overly smooth and doesn't have that attack the DAVE has, is this the case?


I felt the Dave was more articulate without being harsh. The addition of the Farad Power supplies added to a greater sense of depth and space in recordings that I enjoy.
Mola Mola is excellent- however, when you put it all together and look at the price of the Dave previously enjoyed- Dave makes more sense for me.


----------



## Reactcore

Theres a update in my optic scaler thread posted here
This makes modifying Dave alot easier.


----------



## cotic54

When running either of the 3Chord DACs with an m-scaler through a pre-amp (tube or ss) are they much closer together sound-wise or is it the case that the DAVE or TT2 get most of their benefit going direct to power amps? I have a M/Quetest at the moment going into an ARC Ref 3. Has anyone tested them side by side running through a pre and what were your impressions?


----------



## Reactcore

cotic54 said:


> When running either of the 3Chord DACs with an m-scaler through a pre-amp (tube or ss) are they much closer together sound-wise or is it the case that the DAVE or TT2 get most of their benefit going direct to power amps? I have a M/Quetest at the moment going into an ARC Ref 3. Has anyone tested them side by side running through a pre and what were your impressions?


They get closer in having the 1st WTA stage the same which is done by the mscaler. 

Imo transient recontruction should be more comparable but they keep differ in depth production due to small signal accuracy and the amp/line section quality.


----------



## Triode User

cotic54 said:


> When running either of the 3Chord DACs with an m-scaler through a pre-amp (tube or ss) are they much closer together sound-wise or is it the case that the DAVE or TT2 get most of their benefit going direct to power amps? I have a M/Quetest at the moment going into an ARC Ref 3. Has anyone tested them side by side running through a pre and what were your impressions?


For years I had various Chord DACs (Hugo1, HugoTT, TT2 and Dave, some with MScaler)) going through various preamps both ss and tubes. My experience was that the DACs mostly preserve their differences even when going though the preamp. I used to like the color of preamps but now I prefer taking them direct to active speakers or power amps.


----------



## sm60

cotic54 said:


> When running either of the 3Chord DACs with an m-scaler through a pre-amp (tube or ss) are they much closer together sound-wise or is it the case that the DAVE or TT2 get most of their benefit going direct to power amps? I have a M/Quetest at the moment going into an ARC Ref 3. Has anyone tested them side by side running through a pre and what were your impressions?


I have the same ARC Ref 3 preamp. In my (30+ years) experience, no DAC at whatever price point you care to explore can project a soundstage like a top of the line balanced tube preamp can. I tried comparing my Blu2/Dave direct into a variety of power amplifiers vs. going into the Ref 3. There’s just no comparison. The direct input to my ears sounds squashed in terms of dynamics, and is inferior in just about every aspect.

 It’s worth asking why. It would seem logical that direct DAC input to a power amplifier should be more “accurate” and “transparent”. I have tried this experiment with numerous DACs over the years. 20 odd years ago, I owned the dCS stack of Verdi SACD transport, Purcell upsampler and Elgar Plus DAC. Fantastic combo. I thought at the time I could get rid of my ARC Ref 1 tube preamp. Each time I went direct, the sound just collapsed. The dynamics were gone. It sounded a bit emasculated, to put it bluntly. 

Unfortunately it’s the usual no free lunch theorem that kicks in. You’d have to lower the DAC volume down to -40 dB or less depending on amplifier power and speaker sensitivity. This implies the DAC is throwing a lot of bits away. Now DAC manufacturers always like to claim their DACs maintain full resolution as the volume is lowered, which is nice marketing, but not borne out by measurements. Most DACs have far higher distortion levels as the volume is reduced (it’s an intrinsic tradeoff of the PCM standard — every bit reduced drops S/N by 6 dB roughly). 

Some DACs do volume control via a high quality analog board (e.g., the Lampizator Horizon and the various Mark Levinson DACs and CD players). But then you’re putting the preamp quality in a DAC with that of a top flight tube or solid state preamp. In my experience, stand-alone preamps usually win that competition just as separate power amplification is always better than integrated amplification or a receiver. 

Yes, it’s more expensive to use a separate preamplifier and the good ones like ARC are expensive. But they hold their value over time unlike DAC. ARC preamps remain highly prized on the used market and usually fetch premium prices. And if you’re like me who runs multiple sources, you can’t do without a preamp anyway. 

If you want the ultimate in convenience, get a Devialet Phantom Gold all in one speaker. Streamer, DAC, 5000 watt power amplifier and loudspeaker all packed into one small eggshell enclosure. Can go 110 dB loud from 15 Hz to over 20 kHz. Amazing technology. Looks futuristic and cool. You can stream high res to it from your phone. Plug in a power cable and you’re done. No fuss no muss. I have a pair of these in my house. But for the ultimate in sound quality it doesn’t compare to separates. No free lunch, I’m afraid.


----------



## musicinmymind

sm60 said:


> I have the same ARC Ref 3 preamp. In my (30+ years) experience, no DAC at whatever price point you care to explore can project a soundstage like a top of the line balanced tube preamp can. I tried comparing my Blu2/Dave direct into a variety of power amplifiers vs. going into the Ref 3. There’s just no comparison. The direct input to my ears sounds squashed in terms of dynamics, and is inferior in just about every aspect.
> 
> It’s worth asking why. It would seem logical that direct DAC input to a power amplifier should be more “accurate” and “transparent”. I have tried this experiment with numerous DACs over the years. 20 odd years ago, I owned the dCS stack of Verdi SACD transport, Purcell upsampler and Elgar Plus DAC. Fantastic combo. I thought at the time I could get rid of my ARC Ref 1 tube preamp. Each time I went direct, the sound just collapsed. The dynamics were gone. It sounded a bit emasculated, to put it bluntly.
> 
> ...



Devialet Expert all in one box is also good option, just add speakers and set. I have old model 120, still use them with harbeth speakers and susvara


----------



## Progisus

sm60 said:


> I have the same ARC Ref 3 preamp. In my (30+ years) experience, no DAC at whatever price point you care to explore can project a soundstage like a top of the line balanced tube preamp can. I tried comparing my Blu2/Dave direct into a variety of power amplifiers vs. going into the Ref 3. There’s just no comparison. The direct input to my ears sounds squashed in terms of dynamics, and is inferior in just about every aspect.
> 
> It’s worth asking why. It would seem logical that direct DAC input to a power amplifier should be more “accurate” and “transparent”. I have tried this experiment with numerous DACs over the years. 20 odd years ago, I owned the dCS stack of Verdi SACD transport, Purcell upsampler and Elgar Plus DAC. Fantastic combo. I thought at the time I could get rid of my ARC Ref 1 tube preamp. Each time I went direct, the sound just collapsed. The dynamics were gone. It sounded a bit emasculated, to put it bluntly.
> 
> ...






New acquisition. Antipodes K30 with Roon to the Phantoms. Love them.


----------



## cotic54

Thanks for all the helpful comments.
​ @sm60    I do miss my Ref 3 when it's not in the system, it had to be repaired a few years back and sadly is currently on the Techs bench being resuscitated.
I using my substitute DIY DCG3 dual mono SS pre whilst the Ref 3 is in critical care and it does a good job and I have to say is a touch clearer, but the Ref 3 has the sort of sound character that makes listening addictive and as you say the way the sound projects into the room is quite different from other pieces of equipment, I suspect the Ref 3 with the holographic sound of the DAVE must be quite something.

Interesting comments about the Devialet, I was aware of them when they first came out but concluded that a large part of the enjoyment of this hobby is easily being able to change things around with separates, I very much enjoy building stuff (almost finished my 4th set of speakers) which doesn't sit well with buying one thing and you're done.
I do enjoy different types of sound and am not hung up on chasing some utopian perfect sound...... it's enjoying the journey that matters to me.

BTW, I apologize if this has already been brought to your attention, a thread on SBAF is revisiting the DAVE and it seems a change of heart has taken place.
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...visited-in-2022-vs-wavedream-signature.12197/
I like SBAF and find a lot of useful info over there, unlike the pitchfork-wielding villagers on ASR.

​


----------



## skootb

my favorite amp I ever had was the pass labs xa60.8. I sold them to downsize for kid reasons and got a Devialet 200. I was surprised at how well the Devialet performed.


----------



## adrianm (Dec 9, 2022)

sm60 said:


> In my experience, stand-alone preamps usually win that competition just as separate power amplification is always better than integrated amplification or a receiver.


Don't put much stock into Whathifi, but they do mention this in their review.https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/dcs-rossini-apex-dac
https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/dcs-rossini-apex-dac

Also taking into account your impressions above, and what I'm hearing now (Non-Apex version)...I tend to believe them.





Ps. Looks like Dave's still the one going


----------



## Reactcore

4 buffercaps are installed in my Dave on the amp section yesterday.. 

Ohmy Dave's got muscles now.. 
I hear authority and gripp on my HP's drivers. Even with higher volume levels it keeps control
The low end i can feel it rumble..

I will post a section of how i did in my mscaler thread soon.. but i cant get my phones off my head lol


----------



## musicinmymind

skootb said:


> my favorite amp I ever had was the pass labs xa60.8. I sold them to downsize for kid reasons and got a Devialet 200. I was surprised at how well the Devialet performed.



so which one you liked more pass labs or davialet?

I love Davialet for it's all in one pizza box, decent dac but awesome amp.


----------



## nkj1

Its fascinating how we can still find ways to improve the DAVE after all this time. 

I concur that the Farad supply mod adds to the heft and presence of the DAVE in a very natural way


----------



## Reactcore

nkj1 said:


> Its fascinating how we can still find ways to improve the DAVE after all this time.
> 
> I concur that the Farad supply mod adds to the heft and presence of the DAVE in a very natural way


I was sceptical too.. but after i heard Farads there was no denying it changes things.
And i knew i had to further explore this.

But it wouldnt be me if i wouldnt try to modify it in my own way.. and thats adding the buffering as close to the OP as i can and thats straight on the final 12v regulators


----------



## kawhia

adrianm said:


> Don't put much stock into Whathifi, but they do mention this in their review.https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/dcs-rossini-apex-dac
> https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/dcs-rossini-apex-dac
> 
> Also taking into account your impressions above, and what I'm hearing now (Non-Apex version)...I tend to believe them.
> ...


And I thought you decided on selling Dave and buying the Lina stack, no?


----------



## kawhia

Reactcore said:


> I was sceptical too.. but after i heard Farads there was no denying it changes things.
> And i knew i had to further explore this.
> 
> But it wouldnt be me if i wouldnt try to modify it in my own way.. and thats adding the buffering as close to the OP as i can and thats straight on the final 12v regulators


Have you thought about opening a business for modding Dave’s?


----------



## adrianm

kawhia said:


> And I thought you decided on selling Dave and buying the Lina stack, no?


That was the plan, but I kept having a nagging feeling that it's not worth the cost for the improvement. 
    An opportunity came up for these from a dealer and I took a chance, even though they were slightly more than the Lina, it was still a good deal considering the degree of the improvement. If not, I would've just sold them off. This is something else entirely.


----------



## kawhia

adrianm said:


> That was the plan, but I kept having a nagging feeling that it's not worth the cost for the improvement.
> An opportunity came up for these from a dealer and I took a chance, even though they were slightly more than the Lina, it was still a good deal considering the degree of the improvement. If not, I would've just sold them off. This is something else entirely.


And are enjoying them?


----------



## adrianm

kawhia said:


> And are enjoying them?


Yeah, though it's kind of bittersweet. I remember 3 years ago thinking it doesn't get much better than a Mojo, until a Dave blew my mind. This is that kind of transformational upgrade yet again.  Didn't expect it to be and it make me sad that it costs this much.


----------



## Reactcore

adrianm said:


> Yeah, though it's kind of bittersweet. I remember 3 years ago thinking it doesn't get much better than a Mojo, until a Dave blew my mind. This is that kind of transformational upgrade yet again.  Didn't expect it to be and it make me sad that it costs this much.


Have you heard a dave with a psu treatment like Farads or SJ once?


----------



## nkj1

Reactcore said:


> I was sceptical too.. but after i heard Farads there was no denying it changes things.
> And i knew i had to further explore this.
> 
> But it wouldnt be me if i wouldnt try to modify it in my own way.. and thats adding the buffering as close to the OP as i can and thats straight on the final 12v regulators


Are you in a position to share the details on this?

Thanks!


----------



## skootb

musicinmymind said:


> so which one you liked more pass labs or davialet?
> 
> I love Davialet for it's all in one pizza box, decent dac but awesome amp.


I don't have either anymore, but I'd love to still have the Pass amps


----------



## Reactcore

nkj1 said:


> Are you in a position to share the details on this?
> 
> Thanks!


Shure, i will post in my scaler thread what i did exactly.


----------



## adrianm (Dec 10, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> Have you heard a dave with a psu treatment like Farads or SJ once?


Haven't heard those, but an engineer friend built a custom  Dave psu for another friend. Months of trials and prototypes. Ended up having a 3.5k bom. It sounded better than the stock Dave for sure, but I found my power stuff + stock psu better. That said, I didn't have them all side by side.
    The comparison with Lina was done with the power regenerator plugged into a power filter (5k worth of power treatment). Without them , or even just the Genesis one, it's wasn't even in the same conversation. I do have bad power and everything plugged into the same circuit though. Not much of a problem for the dCS stuff.


----------



## Reactcore

On Hf main page now a Weiss 50x review Here and comparison notes with Dave.

It says the Weiss performs better on impact and resolution in the low-mid freq. being more linear in its resolution.

Well the description matches exactly what i now hear my buffercap mod did.. Giving Dave more focus specially on the low-mid area.
Coming perfectly in harmony with its mid and high frequency

I will start writing my howto..


----------



## nkj1

Reactcore said:


> Shure, i will post in my scaler thread what i did exactly.


That would be great! Thank you.


----------



## Caberto

Good afternoon, I would appreciate information about the Sean Jacob ArC 6 power supply. Where could I buy this in Europe, know the price.
Thanks


----------



## Triode User

Reactcore said:


> Well the description matches exactly what i now hear my buffercap mod did.. Giving Dave more focus specially on the low-mid area.
> Coming perfectly in harmony with its mid and high frequency


How much do you think what you hear is a benefit to driving headphones? I never use headphones and connect my Dave either to active speakers or a power amp driving speakers.

Having said that, installing the Sean Jacobs cap board inside the Dave gives a big boost in sound quality in my system and I would not want to take it out.


----------



## Triode User

Caberto said:


> Good afternoon, I would appreciate information about the Sean Jacob ArC 6 power supply. Where could I buy this in Europe, know the price.
> Thanks


He has a partner in Europe who sells direct to countries in the EU. Your best bet is to get in touch with Sean and ask for details. The Latest News page on his website discusses this and has his email address to get in touch for more details.

https://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/


----------



## Caberto

Thanks, will do!


----------



## Reactcore

Triode User said:


> How much do you think what you hear is a benefit to driving headphones? I never use headphones and connect my Dave either to active speakers or a power amp driving speakers.
> 
> Having said that, installing the Sean Jacobs cap board inside the Dave gives a big boost in sound quality in my system and I would not want to take it out.



The benefit is quite alot to my ears, the caps do something similar as the SJ board i guess. but with the advantage of skipping PCB tracks and connector contacts ..not losing any resistance there.

I just have a new thread up of how i installed them.

In my bio and Here


----------



## nkj1

Caberto said:


> Good afternoon, I would appreciate information about the Sean Jacob ArC 6 power supply. Where could I buy this in Europe, know the price.
> Thanks


I hope you are sitting down when you hear the price.


----------



## auricgoldfinger

Caberto said:


> Good afternoon, I would appreciate information about the Sean Jacob ArC 6 power supply. Where could I buy this in Europe, know the price.
> Thanks



The price can be found on the right side of the page.

https://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/power-supplies/dc4-power-supply


----------



## Triode User

Reactcore said:


> The benefit is quite alot to my ears, the caps do something similar as the SJ board i guess. but with the advantage of skipping PCB tracks and connector contacts ..not losing any resistance there.
> 
> I just have a new thread up of how i installed them.
> 
> In my bio and Here


 Thanks, but is this all with headphone listening or is it with amplified speakers? And do you compare back to a pre modified Dave? I picked up a second hand second Dave so I can always switch back and forth to evaluate any changes. This has paid dividends and has made me backtrack a couple of times on changes which I thought were better but turned out not to be upon further evaluation.


----------



## Reactcore

Triode User said:


> Thanks, but is this all with headphone listening or is it with amplified speakers? And do you compare back to a pre modified Dave? I picked up a second hand second Dave so I can always switch back and forth to evaluate any changes. This has paid dividends and has made me backtrack a couple of times on changes which I thought were better but turned out not to be upon further evaluation.


I just have this mod ready.. havent listened to speakers with it yet as i dont have any speakers set up now..

But ofc it benefits too although i think in lesser degree cause of fewer current being drawn through line out


----------



## adrianm

auricgoldfinger said:


> The price can be found on the right side of the page.
> 
> https://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/power-supplies/dc4-power-supply


As @chesebert  eloquently put it a few months ago, and I'm glad he did:
  " You guys know you can buy a Rossini for that kind of money, right?"


----------



## Triode User

adrianm said:


> As @chesebert  eloquently put it a few months ago, and I'm glad he did:
> " You guys know you can buy a Rossini for that kind of money, right?"



Err, if one compares new prices then no one can’t. New Rossini just short of £27k. New Dave £10.5 + ARC6 £8.4k = £19k

Same for second hand prices, second hand pre Apex Rossini £15.5k + Apex upgrade 6k = £21.5k, second hand Dave £5k + new Arc6 £8.5k = £13.5k.

As to how they sound compared to each other we should know soon enough because a friend is bringing his Rossini Apex to compare to my Arc6 Dave hopefully within the next two weeks.


----------



## adrianm

Triode User said:


> Err, if one compares new prices then no one can’t. New Rossini just short of £27k. New Dave £10.5 + ARC6 £8.4k = £19k
> 
> Same for second hand prices, second hand pre Apex Rossini £15.5k + Apex upgrade 6k = £21.5k, second hand Dave £5k + new Arc6 £8.5k = £13.5k.
> 
> As to how they sound compared to each other we should know soon enough because a friend is bringing his Rossini Apex to compare to my Arc6 Dave hopefully within the next two weeks.


If those are the prices, I got a great deal  5k for a Dave is a bit lowball but still the pricing seems ridiculous next to the Arc6. 
    Hope your friend brings a Rossini clock as well. Granted, even if you throw that in + the new Choral M-scaler on the other side, it would still probably be a bit more (though they do get you with those Wave cables ) ,but I can't see it being close.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Triode User said:


> Err, if one compares new prices then no one can’t. New Rossini just short of £27k. New Dave £10.5 + ARC6 £8.4k = £19k
> 
> Same for second hand prices, second hand pre Apex Rossini £15.5k + Apex upgrade 6k = £21.5k, second hand Dave £5k + new Arc6 £8.5k = £13.5k.
> 
> As to how they sound compared to each other we should know soon enough because a friend is bringing his Rossini Apex to compare to my Arc6 Dave hopefully within the next two weeks.


I’m VERY interested in your comparisons between the ARC6 mDAVE and Rossini Apex.


----------



## adrianm (Dec 10, 2022)

Ciggavelli said:


> I’m VERY interested in your comparisons between the ARC6 mDAVE and Rossini Apex.


As am I, though I'm sure I already know  what the result is going to be. I'll grab my popcorn anyway.
   Just my 2 cents: I love Dave and think it can’t be beat below 10k. But Imo the upgrade from Dave to the _non_ Apex Rossini is bigger than the upgrade from Mojo to Dave. So I can't wait to hear how the SJ psu makes it pull ahead of the Apex version. Some measurements of an Arc6 Dave vs a stock Dave would surely be illuminating though.

  There's plenty of reviews (Stereophile, Whathifi, @Sajid Amit , @austinpop ) of the Rossini (both og and Apex) online though. Which is why I felt comfortable enough ordering it blind. Big thanks guys 

   There is however a considerably lower number of people who believe in the magic of SJ Psu's as much as to do this comparison. And basically no respectable reviewers.
    I have to say that constantly being sold on a bunch of snake oil and snake oil adjacent crap on this thread was by far the worst part of Dave ownership. Or in this case, normalizing increasingly ridiculous prices for upgrades which shouldn't be required in the first place. People shouldn't be surprised at the new M-scaler costing 8-10k at least.


----------



## Ciggavelli (Dec 10, 2022)

adrianm said:


> As am I, though I'm sure I already know  what the result is going to be. I'll grab my popcorn anyway.
> Just my 2 cents: I love Dave and think it can’t be beat below 10k. But Imo the upgrade from Dave to the _non_ Apex Rossini is bigger than the upgrade from Mojo to Dave. So I can't wait to hear how the SJ psu makes it pull ahead of the Apex version. Some measurements of an Arc6 Dave vs a stock Dave would surely be illuminating though.
> 
> There's plenty of reviews (Stereophile, Whathifi, @Sajid Amit , @austinpop ) of the Rossini (both og and Apex) online though. Which is why I felt comfortable enough ordering it blind. Big thanks guys
> ...


I realize there will be some biases, but I haven’t seen a comparison of the Rossini Apex and SJ PSU mDAVE anywhere yet. 

The Rossini Apex is on my shortlist of potential new dacs for sure though.


----------



## Reactcore

Reactcore said:


> I just have a new thread up of how i installed them.



Why havent i done this earlier.. increddible how full bodied the sound became with such easy and cheap modification.
I even hear new details in the low region..

Certainly no external amp needed for me


----------



## 801evan (Dec 11, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> Why havent i done this earlier.. increddible how full bodied the sound became with such easy and cheap modification.
> I even hear new details in the low region..
> 
> Certainly no external amp needed for me


Which mod was this?

Edit : oh the super charged amp link!

I got a huge performance gain swapping out the voltage regulators with Sparkos VRs.


----------



## Reactcore

801evan said:


> Which mod was this?
> 
> Edit : oh the super charged amp link!
> 
> I got a huge performance gain swapping out the voltage regulators with Sparkos VRs.



Interesting
Tell us more what it did.. do you have pictures of that?


----------



## 801evan

Reactcore said:


> Interesting
> Tell us more what it did.. do you have pictures of that?


The mod was on a different device. I replaced a 78xx and 79xx series of VR. You can check the Sparkos website for compatibility with the Dave VR.

https://sparkoslabs.com/discrete-voltage-regulators-audio-power-supply/


----------



## kawhia (Dec 11, 2022)

Can someone explain to me: why can I buy a 1000€ AES Ebu cable, but I can barely spend 100€ on a toslink cable? Is there no audible gain to be expected from a higher value toslink cable? Thanks

Is toslink the best connection between an Auralic Aries streamer and DAVE?


----------



## nkj1

Reactcore said:


> 4 buffercaps are installed in my Dave on the amp section yesterday..
> 
> Ohmy Dave's got muscles now..
> I hear authority and gripp on my HP's drivers. Even with higher volume levels it keeps control
> ...





Reactcore said:


> Why havent i done this earlier.. increddible how full bodied the sound became with such easy and cheap modification.
> I even hear new details in the low region..
> 
> Certainly no external amp needed for me



Nice....... can you catch me up?--- I am new here. Are you using an external power supply(s) with the DAVE now?- is the buffering with your new mod in addition to this?

thanks


----------



## Articnoise

kawhia said:


> Can someone explain to me: why can I buy a 1000€ AES Ebu cable, but I can barely spend 100€ on a toslink cable? Is there no audible gain to be expected from a higher value toslink cable? Thanks
> 
> Is toslink the best connection between an Auralic Aries streamer and DAVE?


Because toslink is generally seen as suboptimal for obtaining the best sound in the audio world.


----------



## LucyWu (Dec 11, 2022)

TOSLINK - plastic or glass "cable", simple molded terminal ends. Cheap to make, little opportunity for cable manufacturers to choose fancy materials.

AES/EQU and SPDIF cables can use a wide variety of wire formulations, fancy or cheap connectors and possibly rf blocking ferrites, so manufacturers can produce products at a variety of prices.

Optical cables offer less choice of material and termination, so narrower price spread and (even though Rob Watts receommends them for electrical isolation reasons) much less popular.


----------



## kawhia

Strangely enough I find a 10€ toslink cable to sound equal or a little better than a JPS superconductor AES cable between streamer and Dac. Therefore my second question which input in DAVE is to be preferred?


----------



## kawhia

LucyWu said:


> even though Rob Watts receommends them for electrical isolation reasons


Thanks. I missed that on first reading.


----------



## ecwl

Articnoise said:


> Because toslink is generally seen as suboptimal for obtaining the best sound in the audio world.


I think this has been discussed many times in this forum.
Toslink has more jitter than AES/coax digital inputs but it offers electrical isolation
Even though all DACs have some degree of jitter immunity, ultimately, the DAC architecture determines how immune a DAC is to jitter which is why most DACs sound worse with Toslink.
But Chord DAC’s pulse array DAC simply has a different architecture which are much more jitter immune than other DACs. In fact, you can see lately that other DACs are changing their architecture like Linn and Mola Mola to sort of improve their DAC architecture’s jitter immunity (but still not match Chord).
This is why IMHO, Chord DAC’s can take a high-jitter source from Toslink and sound amazing whereas other DACs can’t. It is also why everybody else says Toslink is worse than AES/coax since it’s true for non-Chord DACs


----------



## Reactcore

nkj1 said:


> Nice....... can you catch me up?--- I am new here. Are you using an external power supply(s) with the DAVE now?- is the buffering with your new mod in addition to this?
> 
> thanks


No im on stock PSU but added buffering aside it inside Dave.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

kawhia said:


> which input in DAVE is to be preferred?


Optical, if you don’t need DSD or DXD compatibility. I once listened A/B to an opticalRendu (Farad Super3 PSU plugged in PS Audio regenerator, AudioQuest Diamond USB cable) and a Raspberry Pi (powered with USB power bank, Chord’s stock optical cable). I don’t remember what Pi hat it was, but @alxw0w knows for sure. Both sources were plugged in HMS-Wave-DAVE. We tried both Roon and LMS.

Raspbery Pi played exactly as good as oRendu with all expensive cables and supercapacitor PSU. There was bigger difference between software players (Roon/LMS) in both setups than between oRendu and RaspberryPi. 

The only think I didn’t like about RPI - it played DSD64 with strange attenuation. I don’t know if it was caused by RPI software or toslink interface limitation. Also you can’t stream DSD128, DSD256 or DXD via toslink. 

So for Qobuz/Tidal which are limited to 24/192 PCM Raspberry Pi connected via toslink to HMS/DAVE is as good as any other streamer, no matter the price.

P.S. Actually it was a very embarrassing experiment. I realized how much money I wasted buying cables and power supplies for Rendu 🤣

P.P.S. Interesting  that for some reason CD transports are still relevant even for Chord. I tried to compare a CD with it’s contents ripped and played through Roon/LMS and real disc was always much more engaging and interesting to listen to.


----------



## jlbrach

kawhia said:


> Can someone explain to me: why can I buy a 1000€ AES Ebu cable, but I can barely spend 100€ on a toslink cable? Is there no audible gain to be expected from a higher value toslink cable? Thanks
> 
> Is toslink the best connection between an Auralic Aries streamer and DAVE?


I will gladly sell you a toslink cable for 1000 dollars


----------



## Triode User

Ragnar-BY said:


> P.P.S. Interesting that for some reason CD transports are still relevant even for Chord. I tried to compare a CD with it’s contents ripped and played through Roon/LMS and real disc was always much more engaging and interesting to listen to.


Back when I had the Blu Mk2 the challenge was always to try to get the ripped version to sound as good as playing the cd. 

By the way, I totally agree with you regarding the differences between the various playback softwares / apps. I cannot find better than LMS + Squeezelite.


----------



## alekc

@Triode User and @Ragnar-BY honestly speaking I think there is something magical about spinning CDs. It may be similar case with reading paper books vs. reading an ebook, and current research shows there are differences in chemical processes in our brains when doing those both things while both are theoretically just reading. I know that despite the quality and price of my audio chain, the CD as a source always sounds best for me (even without additional upsampling). It could be complete misconception, yet I still love spinning CD vs streaming or listening from files. Just my 2 cents...


----------



## zen87192

Cannot agree more... playing CD's on even my 'simple' Pioneer PD-S904 Stable Platter Player offers more sublime sounds than when streaming.


----------



## DJW50

I have a large collection of HDCD's and UHQCD's that I play through a Cyrus CDt XR CD transport so you could say pretty decent.
I have yet to notice the difference of one of these Cd's and the same track played through my Auralic Aries G1 trust me I have tried. The only reason I added a CD to my system was because I'm able to get a lot of old rare CD's that are just not available via a streaming platform.


----------



## zen87192

Aren't HDCD's and UHQCD's different from regular CD's? You need a special player and the quality of these discs are higher than regular CD's? Mine is just a regular CD Player. I've never experienced either of these formats or those SACD's either. Must be quite something 🎧


----------



## 801evan

zen87192 said:


> Cannot agree more... playing CD's on even my 'simple' Pioneer PD-S904 Stable Platter Player offers more sublime sounds than when streaming.


Wow. You saved me from being curious on the silent angel/ Forester streamer stack then. CD is hard to beat. MQA with a crazy USB chain on the Zen stream is the only one that can get ahead of CD.


----------



## zen87192

I've tried many Streamers of varying prices. The expensive ones are pretty impressive.... but not to the extent of difference in quality of 'sound per pound'. Yes... they may sound that much better to some but my ears are either not tuned accordingly to notice a massive difference or my set up with Network switch isolation and separate PSU bodes me very well. I've never had the need to go bananas over a Streamer even though I do run a DAVE which many would say I would need a multi thousand Steamer to match in order to gain the best sound. Even when I use the Fiio M17 as a Streaming source that sounds mighty impressive through the DAVE. I'm just looking forward to my Feliks Envy delivery next week to see what happens then..... 🎧


----------



## DJW50

zen87192 said:


> Aren't HDCD's and UHQCD's different from regular CD's? You need a special player and the quality of these discs are higher than regular CD's? Mine is just a regular CD Player. I've never experienced either of these formats or those SACD's either. Must be quite something 🎧


Yes the HDCD's require a particular chipset in the CD DAC/ transport to get the best out of them, but UHQCD's are slightly different and come across well with any decent transport. But like I say not really noticed any real difference.


----------



## Powersquat

alekc said:


> @Triode User and @Ragnar-BY honestly speaking I think there is something magical about spinning CDs. It may be similar case with reading paper books vs. reading an ebook, and current research shows there are differences in chemical processes in our brains when doing those both things while both are theoretically just reading. I know that despite the quality and price of my audio chain, the CD as a source always sounds best for me (even without additional upsampling). It could be complete misconception, yet I still love spinning CD vs streaming or listening from files. Just my 2 cents...



I've optimised my system around playing physical red book CD's, having a visual impairment, controlling a server/ streamer via a digital device is not that easy for me, also I believe to achieve the SQ I'm currently enjoying from my PS Audio Perfect Wave SACD player I'd need to source a top tier server/streamer.

 There is also something very cathartic about choosing, locating and playing my music from a physical disc, one tends to listen to complete albums when you have to get off your backside to play the next album.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

Powersquat said:


> I've optimised my system around playing physical red book CD's, having a visual impairment, controlling a server/ streamer via a digital device is not that easy for me, also I believe to achieve the SQ I'm currently enjoying from my PS Audio Perfect Wave SACD player I'd need to source a top tier server/streamer.


I listen to albums (not tracks, or playlists) and I think Roon controlled with an iPad is a closest to physical media experience you can get out of computer based system.

If you are looking for streamer, check Rockna Wavedream NET. It is a streamer/server and a CD transport in one box. It does excellent job in both modes. I listened to Perfect Wave SACD and Wavedream NET at home. Really liked both, but decided to keep Rockna. It's more practical and sounds better IMO. However, it should be noted that I listened to these two transports not with DAVE but with Holo May via i2s. It is possible that with DAVE via AES I would have chosen a different transport. Anyway, Rockna is worth listening to.


----------



## alekc

Ragnar-BY said:


> I listen to albums (not tracks, or playlists) and I think Roon controlled with an iPad is a closest to physical media experience you can get out of computer based system.
> 
> If you are looking for streamer, check Rockna Wavedream NET. It is a streamer/server and a CD transport in one box. It does excellent job in both modes. I listened to Perfect Wave SACD and Wavedream NET at home. Really liked both, but decided to keep Rockna. It's more practical and sounds better IMO. However, it should be noted that I listened to these two transports not with DAVE but with Holo May via i2s. It is possible that with DAVE via AES I would have chosen a different transport. Anyway, Rockna is worth listening to.


@Ragnar-BY I wonder if you had a chance to compare either Rocka WaveDream NET or Perfect Wave SACD with Chord Blu directly?


----------



## Triode User

Ciggavelli said:


> I’m VERY interested in your comparisons between the ARC6 mDAVE and Rossini Apex





adrianm said:


> As am I, though I'm sure I already know what the result is going to be. I'll grab my popcorn anyway.
> Just my 2 cents: I love Dave and think it can’t be beat below 10k. But Imo the upgrade from Dave to the _non_ Apex Rossini is bigger than the upgrade from Mojo to Dave. So I can't wait to hear how the SJ psu makes it pull ahead of the Apex version


It is arranged. My friend with his Rossini Apex is visiting this coming Friday.


----------



## Powersquat

Ragnar-BY said:


> I listen to albums (not tracks, or playlists) and I think Roon controlled with an iPad is a closest to physical media experience you can get out of computer based system.
> 
> If you are looking for streamer, check Rockna Wavedream NET. It is a streamer/server and a CD transport in one box. It does excellent job in both modes. I listened to Perfect Wave SACD and Wavedream NET at home. Really liked both, but decided to keep Rockna. It's more practical and sounds better IMO. However, it should be noted that I listened to these two transports not with DAVE but with Holo May via i2s. It is possible that with DAVE via AES I would have chosen a different transport. Anyway, Rockna is worth listening to.



Thank's, however I have no interest in streaming at the moment, there are several iterations of the PS Audio Perfect Wave CD players, Perfect Wave CD/DAC,, the Perfect Wave Memory Transport and the Perfect Wave SACD Transport, which I own and was launched last year,, which Perfect Wave player were you referring to?.

The new Perfect Wave SACD transport is a complete redesign and is the best CDTransport I've heard under £12,000, however the PS Audio DAC's are not at all to my taste.


----------



## Ragnar-BY

alekc said:


> @Ragnar-BY I wonder if you had a chance to compare either Rocka WaveDream NET or Perfect Wave SACD with Chord Blu directly?


Always wanted, but unfortunately never owned or demoed Chord Blu. 



Powersquat said:


> which Perfect Wave player were you referring to?


The current one. Before I've heard Wavedream NET, I was sure that this PerfectWave SACD is the best transport ever. My latest and greatest Cyrus transport (which is very good on it's own) was not even close. Between Rockna and PS Audio the difference was not that big. I'd say that these are more or less devices of same class, but Rockna sounds better from dynamics perspective. Both units sounded natural and "effortless" on it's own, but in comparison Wavedream NET was "even more effortless" and "even more natural" if that makes sense. I would probably be completely satisfied with either of these two, but Rockna's ability to play Roon stream almost as cool as CDs really made me happy.


----------



## Powersquat

Ragnar-BY said:


> Always wanted, but unfortunately never owned or demoed Chord Blu.
> 
> 
> The current one. Before I've heard Wavedream NE T, I was sure that this PerfectWave SACD is the best transport ever. My latest and greatest Cyrus transport (which is very good on it's own) was not even close. Between Rockna and PS Audio the difference was not that big. I'd say that these are more or less devices of same class, but Rockna sounds better from dynamics perspective. Both units sounded natural and "effortless" on it's own, but in comparison Wavedream NET was "even more effortless" and "even more natural" if that makes sense. I would probably be completely satisfied with either of these two, but Rockna's ability to play Roon stream almost as cool as CDs really made me happy.



That's good to know, I haven't heard the Wavedream, but it sounds special if it can perform as well as the PS Audio sSACD, then it must be in the same class as the top end Inuous and Antipodes units, the Inuous Statement, Sean Jacobs ARC6 combo is excellent and I thought SQ wise was pretty much on a par with my transport.

I did demo the latest Cyrus transport, I really disliked the touch pad controls and it's sound signature really didn't appeal to me, I also had the Project RS2 transport for a while and much preferred it to the Cyrus, sadly for the sake of my bank balance neither of these transports came close to the Perfect Wave SACD, of course YMMV.


----------



## nkj1

Reactcore said:


> No im on stock PSU but added buffering aside it inside Dave.


Thanks very much for the details.


----------



## ZappaMan

I’ve ordered the audio lab 6000 cdt, I’m curious to see if it sounds better than my pc streamer, I hope so.


----------



## zen87192

The 6000CDT is absolutely awesome value for money! 💿


----------



## Powersquat

zen87192 said:


> The 6000CDT is absolutely awesome value for money! 💿



Agreed, from the cd transports I've listened to it represented the best sound quality of any transport under £1,500, evidently I've not listened to everything, but at this price point it's main competitor appears to be the Cambridge CXC.

 I was able to demo the Audiolab and Cambridge transports and I felt the Audiolab was the better sounding unit, more resolution and separation, and I preferred the overall sound signature, but these things are subjective.


----------



## Reactcore (Dec 14, 2022)

One could also look at this year released EC3 from Shanling to use as transport only..

http://en.shanling.com/article-IntroEC3.html

Hm i still have a Denon DCD S10ii collecting dust.. never heard it with my Dave stack..
Maybe i give it a try


----------



## SteveHulk (Dec 14, 2022)

Reactcore said:


> One could also look at this year released EC3 from Shanling to use as transport only..
> 
> http://en.shanling.com/article-IntroEC3.html
> 
> ...


Notice the twin psu transformers, just like my Sony CDP555ES, which is also gathering dust.

If you don't like it yourself, it looks like you could still get ca £900 for it 🙂


----------



## Reactcore

SteveHulk said:


> Notice the twin psu transformers, just like my Sony CDP555ES, which is also gathering dust.
> 
> If you don't like it yourself, it looks like you could still get ca £900 for it 🙂



I had also a Sony MDS JA50ES minidisk
Lol good 'ol times they were..


----------



## DJW50

Reactcore said:


> I had also a Sony MDS JA50ES minidisk
> Lol good 'ol times they were..


I have a Sony JB940 minidisc and a DTC 750 DAT left over from my small recording studio my band had. Both in perfect condition with loads of my band recordings on them


----------



## GryphonGuy

Is this the DAVE thread or everything EXCEPT the DAVE?


----------



## SteveHulk

GryphonGuy said:


> Is this the DAVE thread or everything EXCEPT the DAVE?


Is there a "fond reminiscences" thread anywhere? 🙂


----------



## zen87192

GryphonGuy said:


> Is this the DAVE thread or everything EXCEPT the DAVE?


It's the 'CD playing through DAVE' thread at the moment. 💿 🎧


----------



## ZappaMan

GryphonGuy said:


> Is this the DAVE thread or everything EXCEPT the DAVE?


No dac is an island


----------



## Caberto

This is my experience:
Esoteric X03 SE transport VRDS Neo to Dave optical Toslink.


----------



## nkj1

Triode User said:


> It is arranged. My friend with his Rossini Apex is visiting this coming Friday.


This comparison will be awaited.... !


----------



## Somatic

@Rob Watts 

I found a peculiar issue with the Dave recently. I just got my Envy in yesterday. Got everything hooked up etc. I started noticing a constant high pitched sound on higher volume levels. Much to high in normal listening sessions but it was still there and annoying me.

At first I thought the issue was with the Envy as I never noticed this issue on the Ferrum stack. Upon further inquiry, I noticed when I put the Dave in standby. The sound went away. Later I diagnosed it to be the LCD screen. When using Display 4 and the screen goes off the high pitched whine stops. Seems like the LCD screen is producing noise which the highly sensitive Envy is picking up. 

Maybe the Ferrum did not have enough headroom to accentuate the issue. Or this might have been a new issue. Anyone noticed this before? Maybe with other tube amps? Thanks.


----------



## MvRBE10

Somatic said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> I found a peculiar issue with the Dave recently. I just got my Envy in yesterday. Got everything hooked up etc. I started noticing a constant high pitched sound on higher volume levels. Much to high in normal listening sessions but it was still there and annoying me.
> 
> ...


Try to earth the dave. The rca can pick up some noise is cases. Earthing solved it with me or exchange xlr or rca


----------



## Somatic

MvRBE10 said:


> Try to earth the dave. The rca can pick up some noise is cases. Earthing solved it with me or exchange xlr or rca


I tried both the XLR and the RCA. Both produce the same noise. XLR less. I believe the cable is better constructed. Best Copper interconnect Arctic cables could muster.

I don't know how to earth the Dave. Will look into this. Thanks.


----------



## MvRBE10

Somatic said:


> I tried both the XLR and the RCA. Both produce the same noise. XLR less. I believe the cable is better constructed. Best Copper interconnect Arctic cables could muster.
> 
> I don't know how to earth the Dave. Will look into this. Thanks.


Put a wire to a screw on the back and listen and other side to earth on the inlet. My high tone was imidiatly gone. I use unshielded rca and since than had that high pitch tone. Earthing and it was gone


----------



## Somatic

MvRBE10 said:


> Put a wire to a screw on the back and listen and other side to earth on the inlet. My high tone was imidiatly gone. I use unshielded rca and since than had that high pitch tone. Earthing and it was gone


Hmmm. Can you show me a pic or go in a little more detail on the "earth on the inlet"? How should I do this? Thanks.


----------



## MvRBE10

Somatic said:


> Hmmm. Can you show me a pic or go in a little more detail on the "earth on the inlet"? How should I do this? Thanks.


I got earthing on my ac blok and put the other side under a xlr screw


----------



## Somatic

MvRBE10 said:


> I got earthing on my ac blok and put the other side under a xlr screw


I see. I don't think my AC block has an earthing plus like that ...


----------



## MvRBE10

Somatic said:


> I see. I don't think my AC block has an earthing plus like that ...


I designed the block myself but the simple wat is to just put it in the earth lip.


----------



## zen87192

MvRBE10 said:


> I got earthing on my ac blok and put the other side under a xlr screw


Hi, long time no speak. Hope you are keeping well… DAVE Farad LPS doing very well! What’s that stick poking out of your power block supply? 😂


----------



## Reactcore

Somatic said:


> I see. I don't think my AC block has an earthing plus like that ...


Dave's housing is hardwired to line and HP signal ground. So youre connecting RCA gnd to earth.

I know this cause i terminated my buffercaps to the pcb screw island which is in the housing.

For what its worth.. i disconnected Dave's netpower ground using it 'floating'


----------



## auricgoldfinger

Somatic said:


> I see. I don't think my AC block has an earthing plus like that ...



You could buy something like this plug at Amazon or a hardware store and attach it to one end of your ground wire.  You can plug it into an unused, grounded AC outlet.


----------



## Reactcore

Now after listening for some days to Dave with added buffercaps and my HD800 it keeps amazing me how this evidently made the bass more present making the whole sound fuller and authoritative without influencing transparency. This 1mohm ESR (2x 2mohm in parallel) has quite some impact.

I hear more details in the low end. Also the mid range benefits from it shaping instrument identities. It must be heard to believed..


----------



## Triode User (Dec 19, 2022)

Triode User said:


> It is arranged. My friend with his Rossini Apex is visiting this coming Friday.



Well Friday was the day!!

My friend and his brother drove 2 hours to bring their dCS Rossini Apex so we could hear it in my system compared to my ARC6 Dave and Mscaler.

The main tracks we used are shown below. Although this is a screen shot from a Roon playlist, for the actual listening we used Squeeze and Squeezelite on the Antipodes Oladra streamer. All tracks were locally stored rips on the Oladra internal SSD. For both the Rossini and Mscaler/Dave we used the BNC output from the Oladra connected via a well known make of ferrited BNC cable to each of the DACs.

Both of the DACs have volume controls so we were able to connect both directly to my ATC SCM150 active speakers (using Iconoclast OCC 4x4 Gen 2 XLR cables).

I have heard some older generation dCS DACs but I have never before heard a Rossini but my interest was aroused by a few mentions on here and elsewhere. The format for the listening was that we played the whole of a track with one of the DACs then with the same track we swopped DACs and listened to the whole track again. Generally we then swopped back to the first DAC and then finished by playing the track again on the second DAC. ie playing each track 4 times.

Another friend popped in for a couple of hours in the middle of the session. He has an earlier generation dCS system which he outputs through ATC 40 active speakers.

I will do a plot spoiler now and say that none of us felt that we could categorically say that one DAC was wholeheartedly better than the other. In the final analysis it came down to personal preferences and a cost vs value judgement of each DAC.

This is very much a personal thing but I felt that the Rossini had a certain amount of ‘air’ around the upper frequencies which gave it an overall character which some might describe as being life-like but which I found could tend towards the ‘incessant’ end of the spectrum. This is a subtle effect but compared to the Dave’s refinement it was definitely something which I could hear. On some tracks such as the Chris Jones ‘_Thank You_’, both the Rossini owner and I agreed we would be happier with the volume being turned down a notch or two (it wasn’t very high anyway) but with the ARC6 Dave by contrast I was itching to turn up the volume. I also felt that whilst the Rossini might initially give the impression of more detail compared to the Dave in reality I preferred the Dave’s calmer presentation which I think gives more space around notes and that the Dave actually had a better level of fine detail compared to the Rossini ( ** see edit below).  I emphasise again that this was just my ears and what I heard on the day but I felt that the Dave combination avoided any tendency towards cloaking or a slight smearing of subtle detail.

** Edit. For me this effect is exemplified on the Rajaz track by Camel where I find the acoustic guitar plucked notes to be cleaner and to have more fine detail on the ARC6 Dave whereas I found the Rossini Apex made the notes rather more ‘splashy’ and as a consequence the fine detail of each note could not be heard. The Rossini version made the acoustic guitar more ’immediate’ but I preferred the subtle detail revealed by the ARC6 DAVE.

There was a general agreement amongst all of us that the ARC6 Dave and Mscaler sound was a fuller presentation in the lower mids and bass. The Alison Krauss track revealed this quite easily (by the way, I had never heard this track before but I can highly recommend it. It left me itching to hear the rest of the album).

So, after quite a few hours of very pleasant listening and chatting the Rossini Apex and its owners went home. We never did reach a consensus and whilst each of of us could understand what the other saw in their own DAC I am pretty sure that neither of us intends to investigate buying a different DAC. I have wanted to hear the Rossini for quite some time and having now heard the Rossini Apex as far as I am concerned I have eliminated any lingering thought that it might be better than my ‘pimped’ Dave and Mscaler. Also I feel sure that with the impending Choral range Scaler, the ARC6 Dave is likely to take a further quantum leap in sound quality when that becomes available.

On Friday we did a rough back of envelope cost comparison. The Rossini Apex is the thick end of £27k with the ARC6 pimped Dave + Mscaler comes in at around £23k. If we had time it would have been interesting to compare a non pimped Dave/Mscaler to the Rossini Apex but there is only so much that one can do in a single day of listening.

There is one review from October 2020 by Sam Rosen at Positive Feedback where he felt that with suitable cables the Dave + Mscaler (unmodified, factory spec) was a similar level to the Rossini (that review was pre Apex) so it was interesting to now hear the Rossini Apex vs a pimped Dave.

In conclusion, it is clear that the Rossini Apex is a good DAC. It was just that I thought my Mscaler + Dave was better overall in several very clear ways and was the DAC which I would be happiest listening to long term.

System : Innuos PhoenixNET, Antipodes Oladra streamer with internal SSD and running Squeeze server and Squeezelite player apps, BNC ferrited cable to Mscaler or Rossini Apex DAC. Dave powered by Sean Jacobs ARC6 LPS and with internal Sean Jacobs Cap Board. Speakers : ATC SCM150 active.


----------



## Reactcore

Triode User said:


> Well Friday was the day!!
> 
> My friend and his brother drove 2 hours to bring their dCS Rossini Apex so we could hear it in my system compared to my ARC6 Dave and Mscaler.
> 
> ...


Nice writeup!

Its not easy to be totally neutral in observing.. one easily tends to like ones owned apparatus..

Have you tried Mscaler on the Rossini too?
See if it would add anything to it

As far ive seen the Rossini has no direct HP output so a Amp adds to the sound signature


----------



## Triode User

Reactcore said:


> Nice writeup!
> 
> Its not easy to be totally neutral in observing.. one easily tends to like ones owned apparatus..
> 
> ...



Thanks. As you say it is difficult sometimes not to be partisan but at the end of it all I simply preferred the Dave sound. Given more time I would like to have tried the Mscaler with the Rossini but equally I would ideally have liked to borrow the Rossini for a couple of weeks. We all know that a dat really isn’t long enough.

The lack of a HP output on the Rossini would not bother me at all because I never use headphones.


----------



## Articnoise

Triode User said:


> Well Friday was the day!!
> 
> My friend and his brother drove 2 hours to bring their dCS Rossini Apex so we could hear it in my system compared to my ARC6 Dave and Mscaler.
> 
> ...


Where are the pictures???


----------



## FunkyBassMan

Fantastic read!  Thanks for sharing this great information.


----------



## Triode User

Articnoise said:


> Where are the pictures???


Sorry, we were talking so much and then my friend realised they had to quickly set off and in all the haste I didn’t get a picture with the Rossini in situ. This was the set up for the day. The Rossini simply took the place of the Dave when we did the swop.


----------



## alxw0w

Triode User said:


> Sorry, we were talking so much and then my friend realised they had to quickly set off and in all the haste I didn’t get a picture with the Rossini in situ. This was the set up for the day. The Rossini simply took the place of the Dave when we did the swop.


Beautiful desk.
One day I hope to get similar one to my future 2.0 system.
Just gorgeous.


----------



## number1sixerfan (Dec 18, 2022)

Triode User said:


> Well Friday was the day!!
> 
> My friend and his brother drove 2 hours to bring their dCS Rossini Apex so we could hear it in my system compared to my ARC6 Dave and Mscaler.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing the comparison impressions, you just don't see these two compared much. I tend to agree with Reactcore's point about initial impressions being a bit hard to be neutral with as an owner of a piece of gear, but despite I appreciate the differences you clearly lay out. My one question is for the Rossini owner (or others that favored the Rossini), what did they prefer or what stood out for them as the Rossini doing better than the Dave? Sounds like there were impressions in favor of both, so just curious there if there were any in detail.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Triode User said:


> Well Friday was the day!!
> 
> My friend and his brother drove 2 hours to bring their dCS Rossini Apex so we could hear it in my system compared to my ARC6 Dave and Mscaler.
> 
> ...


@Rob Watts  is going to love reading this 😂


----------



## SteveHulk

It does make me wonder... if a Dave can be tweaked and made competitive with a Rossini Apex then what exactly is Chord planning for the Ultima DAC so that it'll be a clear step forward.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

SteveHulk said:


> It does make me wonder... if a Dave can be tweaked and made competitive with a Rossini Apex then what exactly is Chord planning for the Ultima DAC so that it'll be a clear step forward.


Only time will tell, get your wallet ready you won't be able to resist 😂


----------



## audio_1 (Dec 19, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> It does make me wonder... if a Dave can be tweaked and made competitive with a Rossini Apex then what exactly is Chord planning for the Ultima DAC so that it'll be a clear step forward.


Hopefully Rob will take into account some of the ideas mentioned on this forum such as Reactcore's optical connections between the Dave and Mscaler and also sufficiently low ESR capacitors on the power supply rails. These additions wouldn't cost a fortune. The Ultima DAC should also incorporate an optimised smps, not the cheap component fitted to Dave. Lastly adjustable voltage output or gain so that only a few dB of attenuation have to be used on the digital volume control in all systems. Lastly it would be interesting to know if Rob has evaluated low mass RCA connectors. Equalisation like the Mojo 2 but with additional bands would be a real bonus too if fitted to the new Mscaler or Ultima DAC.
​


----------



## FunkyBassMan

audio_1 said:


> Hopefully Rob will take into account some of the ideas mentioned on this forum such as Reactcore's optical connections between the Dave and Mscaler and also sufficiently low ESR capacitors on the power supply rails. These additions wouldn't cost a fortune. The Ultima DAC should also incorporate an optimised smps, not the cheap component fitted to Dave. Lastly adjustable voltage output or gain so that only a few dB of attenuation have to be used on the digital volume control in all systems. Lastly it would be interesting to know if Rob has evaluated low mass RCA connectors. Equalisation like the Mojo 2 but with additional bands would be a real bonus too if fitted to the new Mscaler or Ultima DAC.
> ​


Equalization would be fantastic.  That's HARD to do.


----------



## Rob Watts

I remember reading with great interest the Mojo 2 speculation thread. It was a very valuable resource. But out of the many hundreds of suggestions, no one saw the big change coming with Mojo 2 - the UHD DSP EQ....


----------



## zen87192 (Dec 19, 2022)

Ah... EQ is coming then to the Ultima (as we currently call it) .... 😉


----------



## Triode User

audio_1 said:


> Hopefully Rob will take into account some of the ideas mentioned on this forum such as Reactcore's optical connections between the Dave and Mscaler and also sufficiently low ESR capacitors on the power supply rails. These additions wouldn't cost a fortune. The Ultima DAC should also incorporate an optimised smps, not the cheap component fitted to Dave. Lastly adjustable voltage output or gain so that only a few dB of attenuation have to be used on the digital volume control in all systems. Lastly it would be interesting to know if Rob has evaluated low mass RCA connectors. Equalisation like the Mojo 2 but with additional bands would be a real bonus too if fitted to the new Mscaler or Ultima DAC.
> ​


Rob is a dark horse and is probably further ahead of the game than just the things you mention!!


----------



## Powersquat

Triode User said:


> Well Friday was the day!!
> 
> My friend and his brother drove 2 hours to bring their dCS Rossini Apex so we could hear it in my system compared to my ARC6 Dave and Mscaler.




Thank's for your detailed impressions, I'm sure it was a pleasurable and informative exercise.

The Chris Jones track (Thank You) is a personal favourite of mine, in fact when Marc and Steve from Fanthorpe's installed my speakers a couple of months ago it was one of the tracks we used during the set up process.

As you're already aware the acoustic and slide guitar work is complex and detailed, I can fully understand your reasons  for using this track to evaluate presence and space, however there is a very low bass line that underpins this track and I wonder whether this had any impact on your reasons for wishing to turn the volume down whilst listening to the Rossini, certainly when played through a 2 channel system with speakers that are capable of dropping low enough, as the track plays out the bass goes jaw dropingly deep.      
I


----------



## Triode User

Powersquat said:


> Thank's for your detailed impressions, I'm sure it was a pleasurable and informative exercise.
> 
> The Chris Jones track (Thank You) is a personal favourite of mine, in fact when Marc and Steve from Fanthorpe's installed my speakers a couple of months ago it was one of the tracks we used during the set up process.
> 
> ...


No, the bass was not the reason (I know the nice deep bass you are talking about on that track, especially audible towards the end!), rather it was a slightly incessant quality to the top end.


----------



## adrianm

number1sixerfan said:


> Thanks for sharing the comparison impressions, you just don't see these two compared much. I tend to agree with Reactcore's point about initial impressions being a bit hard to be neutral with as an owner of a piece of gear, but despite I appreciate the differences you clearly lay out. My one question is for the Rossini owner (or others that favored the Rossini), what did they prefer or what stood out for them as the Rossini doing better than the Dave? Sounds like there were impressions in favor of both, so just curious there if there were any in detail.


Well If you want to know impressions from someone who currently owns both, feel free to Pm


----------



## Powersquat

Triode User said:


> No, the bass was not the reason (I know the nice deep bass you are talking about on that track, especially audible towards the end!), rather it was a slightly incessant quality to the top end.



Thank you, thankfully DAVE and MScaler show off those wonderful airy guitar twangs to perfection.


----------



## cotic54

adrianm said:


> Well If you want to know impressions from someone who currently owns both, feel free to Pm


Better be quick he won't have both for long.


----------



## adrianm

cotic54 said:


> Better be quick he won't have both for long.


I will go through that playlist after I'm done with work, but my setup is just Dave + power regenerator and no M-scaler vs Rossini (Non-Apex) + Clock. I don't find a lack of M-scaler for the Dave as big a handicap as a lack of clock for the Rossini though. 
    The rest of the streaming stuff I find more or less irrelevant from my experience, as I'm using optical into Dave, which, 2 years later, still sounds best to me.


----------



## tomwoo

Is DAVE priced significantly lower in China than in the rest of the world?

I saw somewhere that brand new DAVE sold for $6k-7k last year. Is that even possible?

The current US MSRP of $14K is just too much Lol...


----------



## SteveHulk (Dec 19, 2022)

tomwoo said:


> Is DAVE priced significantly lower in China than in the rest of the world?
> 
> I saw somewhere that brand new DAVE sold for $6k-7k last year. Is that even possible?
> 
> The current US MSRP of $14K is just too much Lol...


You guys are paying about $3k extra in duty because you are importing a British product to the USA 😔

The same applies to us when we import products from the USA.

This is how tariffs damage trade.


----------



## tomwoo (Dec 19, 2022)

SteveHulk said:


> You guys are paying about $3k extra in duty because you are importing a British product to the USA 😔
> 
> The same applies to us when we import products from the USA.
> 
> This is how tariffs damage trade.


Looks like Classifieds is the way to go  
Only 50% of MSRP


----------



## SteveHulk

tomwoo said:


> Looks like Classifieds is the way to go
> Only 50% of MSRP


That is true.

An advantage of the fact that Dave has never been updated is that the old models are as good as the brand new ones.


----------



## Jawed

Triode User said:


> No, the bass was not the reason (I know the nice deep bass you are talking about on that track, especially audible towards the end!)


41Hz, out of phase across the two channels. Seems like a serious recording mistake...


----------



## adrianm (Dec 19, 2022)

Triode User said:


> In conclusion, it is clear that the Rossini Apex is a good DAC. It was just that I thought my Mscaler + Dave was better overall in several very clear ways and was the DAC which I would be happiest listening to long term.


After listening to your playlist with my headphones and amp, suffice to say I don't find them in the same league (I'll spare everyone my rants, feel free to check the Bartok thread), but a/b-ing is so tedious to me at this point , that I was very happy just listening using Dave instead. Sadly i'll never know what magical properties Sean Jacobs psus have to close the gap, but I'd point out that dCS uses more or less the same power solution from the Vivaldi down to the Lina. Same clocks as well. No magic there. And the manual actually recommends against using most of the audiophile cables pushed on the forums. How refreshing. People will do what they want ofc.

   Your cost calculations are also pretty skewed, seemingly not taking into account that all you need is a (non-ferited) Ethernet cable to get music out of the Rossini. And it will sound as good as (insert number of) Taikos and Antipodes you might want to add in front of your chain.

Edit: To be fair, taking the clock out, does almost even the playing field so a point where I can almost see where you're coming from. The M-scaler still wouldn't put it above for me though.


----------



## Powersquat

Jawed said:


> 41Hz, out of phase across the two channels. Seems like a serious recording mistake...



Well if it's out of phase that explains a lot, I've always felt the bass on "Thank You" sounded a little odd, that was the reason I mentioned it to Triode User. To be fair it's never really spoiled my enjoyment of the track, the only time it became an issue was when we used it as part of setting up my current speakers, but we all put it down to the new bass drivers needing to have a little time to free up, but at the time I did wonder whether we had the speakers in the optimum position, thankfully time has revealed that we did.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

dCS is too much money in my opinion for what it does, I have listened to several of their models and I wasn't impressed, MSB actually impressed me way more.  If was going to go up that price range, MSB would be my ticket.


----------



## Lgn3 (Dec 20, 2022)

Powersquat said:


> Well if it's out of phase that explains a lot, I've always felt the bass on "Thank You" sounded a little odd, that was the reason I mentioned it to Triode User. To be fair it's never really spoiled my enjoyment of the track, the only time it became an issue was when we used it as part of setting up my current speakers, but we all put it down to the new bass drivers needing to have a little time to free up, but at the time I did wonder whether we had the speakers in the optimum position, thankfully time has revealed that we did.





Jawed said:


> 41Hz, out of phase across the two channels. Seems like a serious recording mistake...





Goes to show why I have always agreed with @Christer  that listening to well recorded acoustic instruments, ideally from a performance in a venue you are familiar with is the best starting point when auditioning or comparing equipment.


----------



## Christer (Dec 20, 2022)

Not a clue about prices in China currently . But I was more than a  a bit tempted to buy a new one just after it was released in Singapore for around 8500 USD. And even more tempted in Medan Indonesia a  few years later at around 6500 USD new. But instead I setttled or a  Qutest/Mscaler combo. Mscaler is imho the most important indgredient in the "Rob Watts cooking recipe", for me listening 99% to acoustic instruments  music, recorded in a real acoustic space.
As you say the current MSRP both in the US and Europe are  too much.
WAY TOO MUCH!!
Cheers Christer



tomwoo said:


> Is DAVE priced significantly lower in China than in the rest of the world?
> 
> I saw somewhere that brand new DAVE sold for $6k-7k last year. Is that even possible?
> 
> The current US MSRP of $14K is just too much Lol...


----------



## tomwoo

Christer said:


> Not a clue about prices in China currently . But I was more than a  a bit tempted to buy a new one just after it was released in Singapore for around 8500 USD. And even more tempted in Medan Indonesia a  few years later at around 6500 USD new. But instead I setttled or a  Qutest/Mscaler combo. Mscaler is imho the most important indgredient in the "Rob Watts cooking recipe", for me listening 99% to acoustic instruments  music, recorded in a real acoustic space.
> *As you say the current MSRP both in the US and Europe are  too much.
> WAY TOO MUCH!!*
> Cheers Christer


Agreed!
Buying used from a reputable Head-Fi'er is the way


----------



## Somatic

Somatic said:


> @Rob Watts
> 
> I found a peculiar issue with the Dave recently. I just got my Envy in yesterday. Got everything hooked up etc. I started noticing a constant high pitched sound on higher volume levels. Much to high in normal listening sessions but it was still there and annoying me.
> 
> ...


@Rob Watts Hi Rob, wondering if you aware of the LCD on the Dave adding some noise to the signal? In everyday use and volumes it is not heard but at higher gains its there. I noticed with the Feliks Envy.


----------



## Rob Watts

Somatic said:


> @Rob Watts Hi Rob, wondering if you aware of the LCD on the Dave adding some noise to the signal? In everyday use and volumes it is not heard but at higher gains its there. I noticed with the Feliks Envy.


On measurements it's just possible to resolve it, but you are looking at something comparable to the FFT noise floor, so insignificant.

Nobody has ever reported hearing it though, and that's consistent with the measurements. This sounds like an issue solely with the Feliks - perhaps a grounding or RF issue. Perhaps the Feliks is picking up EMC multiplexing noise direct from the display via the air.


----------



## FunkyBassMan (Dec 21, 2022)

"Mscaler is imho the most important ingredient in the "Rob Watts cooking recipe",

Yup, I would agree with that.  I've crossed over to almost not being able to listen to music without it.  It's frighteningly like a drug.


----------



## alxw0w

Somatic said:


> @Rob Watts Hi Rob, wondering if you aware of the LCD on the Dave adding some noise to the signal? In everyday use and volumes it is not heard but at higher gains its there. I noticed with the Feliks Envy.


Have you tried setting display to 4?
Does it help?


----------



## Somatic

alxw0w said:


> Have you tried setting display to 4?
> Does it help?


Oh yes. Display 4 fixes the issue. 90% better. In normal volume ranges completely silent so no worries. Just curious. Non issue.


----------



## alxw0w (Dec 21, 2022)

Somatic said:


> Oh yes. Display 4 fixes the issue. 90% better. In normal volume ranges completely silent so no worries. Just curious. Non issue.


So there is still some noise even with display off?

Then there is something more happening in the system that Feliks is catching something and amplifying.
Some ground loop maybe.

ps. can you try different dac? Also as I see you are using farad3 with Dave - can you switch to stock ps just to see if there is difference?


----------



## Triode User

Somatic said:


> Oh yes. Display 4 fixes the issue. 90% better. In normal volume ranges completely silent so no worries. Just curious. Non issue.


I have just tried with my Dave with the display on and off and the volume turned up to max (+19dB). It is totally silent on its output even when the display is on and the volume is at max. I don’t know if you using the Farad power supplies has any impact on what you are hearing? (I have the Sean Jacobs power supply with my Dave).


----------



## zen87192 (Dec 21, 2022)

DAVE with Farad power supply through Feliks Envy Amp (with stock Tubes) is silent on all display/operational settings. Volume turned up to just over 4 O'clock (no music) is where I start to hear a very minor start of humming. No way would I reach that 4 O'clock level level when listening to music. I barely go beyond 9 O'clock on High Gain setting on the Envy.


----------



## MvRBE10

zen87192 said:


> DAVE with Farad power supply through Feliks Envy Amp (with stock Tubes) is silent on all display/operational settings. Volume turned up to just over 4 O'clock (no music) is where I start to hear a very minor start of humming.


Earth it and its gone.


----------



## MvRBE10

I use tube mundorf angelique rca cable when it occured and indeed only when the display lights up. Other shielded rca that sounded worse or earth wire fixed it. So option two


----------



## Somatic

MvRBE10 said:


> I use tube mundorf angelique rca cable when it occured and indeed only when the display lights up. Other shielded rca that sounded worse or earth wire fixed it. So option two


I was thinking of getting something like this ...

https://www.amazon.com/Static-Care-Grounding-Alligator-Garments/dp/B08V5D9L7L/ref=sr_1_7?crid=LC2UDAQPCS0&keywords=grounding+cable&qid=1671665197&sprefix=brounding+cabl,aps,117&sr=8-7

Edit: Sounds like you had the same exact issue as me. Crazy


----------



## MvRBE10

Try a simple wire to dave and grounding and its gone.it comes from the display chip thingy icw the unshielded rca input and prob some noise that bounces in that kind of situation. But thats were groundings are for so fixed.


----------



## jlbrach

Triode User said:


> I have just tried with my Dave with the display on and off and the volume turned up to max (+19dB). It is totally silent on its output even when the display is on and the volume is at max. I don’t know if you using the Farad power supplies has any impact on what you are hearing? (I have the Sean Jacobs power supply with my Dave).


apparently the dave would clip at plus 5 with the m-scaler or plus 3 with the dave alone


----------



## number1sixerfan (Dec 21, 2022)

adrianm said:


> Well If you want to know impressions from someone who currently owns both, feel free to Pm



Will do. Admit it was silly of me to ask directly in this thread.. sigh lol



FunkyBassMan said:


> "Mscaler is imho the most important ingredient in the "Rob Watts cooking recipe",
> 
> Yup, I would agree with that.  I've crossed over to almost not being able to listen to music without it.  It's frighteningly like a drug.



I don't know about most important, but having shipped my M-scaler to my new destination while only using the Dave in the meantime, the lack of additional layering and spacing is definitely apparent (like.. very apparent). I'm not sure it's a "must own", but it certainly seems like a "can't sell or get rid of", which I guess is essentially the same lol


----------



## Triode User (Dec 22, 2022)

jlbrach said:


> apparently the dave would clip at plus 5 with the m-scaler or plus 3 with the dave alone


I wasn’t playing music, just listening for any background noise from the display. It was silent.


----------



## Somatic

MvRBE10 said:


> Earth it and its gone.


Just curious, if we have a lighting storm and I have the Dave connected to ground, is there any potential issues with electricity spike? I assume no but wanted to check. I saw some ground cables had a resistor.


----------



## MvRBE10

No thats were groundings are for to remove noise and voltage peaks etc. Asumong your house earth is a ok. But with an direct hit you orobably have other issues to handle.


----------



## FunkyBassMan

To those who are - like I was- petrified by all the "you want to switch all the capacitors out of the DAVE with platinum/uranium ones hand-wound by blind monks" and "to block RF you need to battery-power everything in your neighborhood and cover your house in 6 layers of lead" kinds of talk I can very happily report that I'm listening right now to a DAVE connected by all stock cables to a Macbook Pro and MScaler listening to, of all things, recordings off *Youtube* (what are they, 128k .mp3 or something?) and it sounds just ridiculously amazingly good.  Like "can't leave the room" good.  (Though interestingly the DAVE did seem to need a few hours burn-in before it got completely up to speed).  
And don't get me started on how good it sounds with Audirvana.  

Thanks to @Rob Watts for your fantastic work.


----------



## Somatic

FunkyBassMan said:


> To those who are - like I was- petrified by all the "you want to switch all the capacitors out of the DAVE with platinum/uranium ones hand-wound by blind monks" and "to block RF you need to battery-power everything in your neighborhood and cover your house in 6 layers of lead" kinds of talk I can very happily report that I'm listening right now to a DAVE connected by all stock cables to a Macbook Pro and MScaler listening to, of all things, recordings off *Youtube* (what are they, 128k .mp3 or something?) and it sounds just ridiculously amazingly good.  Like "can't leave the room" good.  (Though interestingly the DAVE did seem to need a few hours burn-in before it got completely up to speed).
> And don't get me started on how good it sounds with Audirvana.
> 
> Thanks to @Rob Watts for your fantastic work.


Still ... all the other tweaks help it sound even better hehe


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Yea some folks go really deep on the DAVE, I personally like the way it sounds out of the box and don't feel a need to tinker with it more, but hey if it makes them happy to tinker by all means go ahead 😂


----------



## Slim1970

GuiltyRocker said:


> Yea some folks go really deep on the DAVE, I personally like the way it sounds out of the box and don't feel a need to tinker with it more, but hey if it makes them happy to tinker by all means go ahead 😂


I’m in the same camp as you. The DAVE is stellar in stock form. However, I am curious about the improvements a power supply upgrade would bring.


----------



## FunkyBassMan

GuiltyRocker said:


> Yea some folks go really deep on the DAVE, I personally like the way it sounds out of the box and don't feel a need to tinker with it more, but hey if it makes them happy to tinker by all means go ahead 😂


Exactly.

After reading here, I worried about buying a DAVE because it seemed like so many people were going through such measures to make it what they want for their systems.  But now after hearing the gem it is (with the MScaler) out of the box, I now have the impression that it's actually _because_ the DAVE is so otherworldly that people have the passion for it to do the tweaks.


----------



## Triode User

FunkyBassMan said:


> Exactly.
> 
> After reading here, I worried about buying a DAVE because it seemed like so many people were going through such measures to make it what they want for their systems.  But now after hearing the gem it is (with the MScaler) out of the box, I now have the impression that it's actually _because_ the DAVE is so otherworldly that people have the passion for it to do the tweaks.


This is indeed EXACTLY right and well put. I reverted my Dave to factory spec about 3 months ago and loaned it to a friend to try in his system. No tweaks and no pimping. After a week he brought it back and told me he had ordered one from his dealer and he has been insanely happy with his new one ever since.

I think it is testament to the underlying design and quality of the Dave (and Mscaler) that they can respond so well to tweaking. It is not a matter of fixing something that is broken but rather taking a superb product and allowing it to flex its muscles.


----------



## audio_1

Triode User said:


> This is indeed EXACTLY right and well put. I reverted my Dave to factory spec about 3 months ago and loaned it to a friend to try in his system. No tweaks and no pimping. After a week he brought it back and told me he had ordered one from his dealer and he has been insanely happy with his new one ever since.
> 
> I think it is testament to the underlying design and quality of the Dave (and Mscaler) that they can respond so well to tweaking. It is not a matter of fixing something that is broken but rather taking a superb product and allowing it to flex its muscles.


I hope from all we have learnt from the Dave, TT2 and Mscaler forums and the experience of owning them that the Dave 2 and Mscaler X will not require any tweaking. Hopefully they will show their full potential out of the box.


----------



## JTbbb

Slim1970 said:


> I’m in the same camp as you. The DAVE is stellar in stock form. However, I am curious about the improvements a power supply upgrade would bring.


Curiosity killed the cat! Although in this company, will empty your wallet 😀.


----------



## FunkyBassMan (Dec 23, 2022)

audio_1 said:


> I hope from all we have learnt from the Dave, TT2 and Mscaler forums and the experience of owning them that the Dave 2 and Mscaler X will not require any tweaking. Hopefully they will show their full potential out of the box.


I think you (or at least your language) miss the key point.  The Dave, TT2 and MScaler don't by any means _require_ tweaking, they _inspire_ it.

And there's never been a piece of gear made that's not improvable if someone is willing to spend enough time and money.


----------



## Slim1970

JTbbb said:


> Curiosity killed the cat! Although in this company, will empty your wallet 😀.


Haha, right


----------



## ZappaMan (Dec 23, 2022)

Really think my cdt, Audiolab 6000, mscaled, is really bringing improvements.
Listening to arcade fire - funeral, I’ve never heard it like this, picking up lots more lyrics and drum details. This also encourages extra singalong ability lol.
It is an honest to god improvement, for £400, sure, you can’t beat it.

Listening to the national, high violet, I have ether 2 turned up to -15, after listening happily at the normal volume (-25 to -35) - re: my comment above. It seems to like the volume going up.

Timbre of drums is incredible, elbow, mirrorball.


----------



## Reactcore (Dec 24, 2022)

FunkyBassMan said:


> And there's never been a piece of gear made that's not improvable if someone is willing to spend enough time and money.


It doesnt always need to cost much..

If one has some soldering skills and warranty is no issue (perhaps expired) ..the buffer cap mod makes a huge difference to Dave's amp for as little as €25

Now i know what users meant by saying Dave sounds thin vs using it with a external amp..
Boy its direct output can be enormously energetic and impactful once its feeded rock stable voltage.

I wish i could let others hear this increddible full sounding change compared to stock.

How instruments and voices got more body and like i already mentioned the (sub)bass is a lot stronger.. it rumbles and shakes my headphones which i even feel in my toes on some tracks.. with untouched transparency

One downside could be that if bass is over EQ'ed in the recording... one will easily hear this.. something bassheads will really like.


----------



## thePhones (Dec 24, 2022)

For those who are still trying to decide whether they should start with an investment in the Dave or start with a Hugo 2(or TT2)/Mscaler combo I would like to ad another impression/opinion on this topic.
Rob Watts is calling the M scaler essential at this point and I also think I don’t want to miss it anymore, but if one would have to go and only one could stay I would call the Dave essential. This amazing transparency is the one thing I can not listen without anymore. Currawong said in a video that he had a physical reaction to the pure sound coming out of the dave and feel the same. I enjoy Dave solo a lot more than Hugo 2 with M Scaler.
The M Scaler is like a turbo charger to the ablities of each Chord dac. Because the Dave is so transparent and can show so much variation in timbre the capabilities of the M Scaler show a lot more. So both are almost essential to me but if I had to choose I would absolutely start with Dave solo. Also love the “submarine equipment-look” It’s so awesome!

Happy Christmas everyone!


----------



## Reactcore

Ive seen this old review has got a update.
(added Mscaler)

https://www.hear.audio/2016/07/30/chord-dave-review/


----------



## FunkyBassMan

Reactcore said:


> Ive seen this old review has got a update.
> (added Mscaler)
> 
> https://www.hear.audio/2016/07/30/chord-dave-review/


Hadn't seen that one - thanks.  

Love this line: "Disable the MScaler mid-track and everything becomes, in a word, more _pixelated."  _

That's exactly how I hear it.  The Dave is remarkably clear and spacious all by itself.  But add the MScaler and the sound goes from digital to analog.  Or extremely close to it.


----------



## thePhones

Reactcore said:


> Ive seen this old review has got a update.
> (added Mscaler)
> 
> https://www.hear.audio/2016/07/30/chord-dave-review/


Thanks, I really enjoyed to read it. I like the choice of words, like he is always painting a picture.


----------



## Reactcore

FunkyBassMan said:


> Hadn't seen that one - thanks.
> 
> Love this line: "Disable the MScaler mid-track and everything becomes, in a word, more _pixelated."  _
> 
> That's exactly how I hear it.  The Dave is remarkably clear and spacious all by itself.  But add the MScaler and the sound goes from digital to analog.  Or extremely close to it.


For me it was the last line that i read multible times in different reviews:
"If only the headphone amplifier had the drive of the TT2"

This i made true with my cap modification


----------



## zen87192

Merry Christmas everybody! 🎅


----------



## Spawn300Z

Merry Christmas to All.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Merry Christmas to all, enjoy your systems!


----------



## sm60

zen87192 said:


> Merry Christmas everybody! 🎅


Celebrating Christmas Eve here in the Bay Area sipping some Hennessy cognac, listening to some beautiful west coast jazz played back on my Blu2/Dave, shown here in its fetching Chord stand. The album is Gerry Mulligan’s Dream a Little Dream on Telarc. Fabulous recording made late in his career. Toast to Rob Watts for enriching our lives with his designs.


----------



## Ciggavelli

Reactcore said:


> For me it was the last line that i read multible times in different reviews:
> "If only the headphone amplifier had the drive of the TT2"
> 
> This i made true with my cap modification


Or get an upgraded power supply.  I still prefer my WA33 EE JPS over straight out of the Dave (the Woo is much more expansive), but straight out of the DAVE isn't that bad though


----------



## GuiltyRocker

sm60 said:


> Celebrating Christmas Eve here in the Bay Area sipping some Hennessy cognac, listening to some beautiful west coast jazz played back on my Blu2/Dave, shown here in its fetching Chord stand. The album is Gerry Mulligan’s Dream a Little Dream on Telarc. Fabulous recording made late in his career. Toast to Rob Watts for enriching our lives with his designs.


Very nice Blu player, enjoy!


----------



## mentalmal1

Merry Xmas to all you fine music lovers out there. I’ll be producing a nice Christmassy mix of tunes for the whole family who are coming to visit today - and of course carving the turkey too!
Let’s hope 2023’s a better year! 🥂🥂


----------



## FunkyBassMan

zen87192 said:


> Merry Christmas everybody! 🎅


You too!


----------



## Reactcore

Merry Chordmas to eveyone🎶 and a musical 2023


----------



## FunkyBassMan

Listening to Sgt. Pepper's on Dave/MScaler.  I've heard this record before a thousand times on digital and vinyl, but this is a completely different experience.  

It's like I'm in the studio with the Beatles.  Utterly mesmerizing.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

FunkyBassMan said:


> Listening to Sgt. Pepper's on Dave/MScaler.  I've heard this record before a thousand times on digital and vinyl, but this is a completely different experience.
> 
> It's like I'm in the studio with the Beatles.  Utterly mesmerizing.


That's when you know you got it right.  Enjoy.


----------



## jlbrach

FunkyBassMan said:


> Listening to Sgt. Pepper's on Dave/MScaler.  I've heard this record before a thousand times on digital and vinyl, but this is a completely different experience.
> 
> It's like I'm in the studio with the Beatles.  Utterly mesmerizing.


yes, I too have the dave/blu2 and the new remastered hi-rez version of sgt pepper is remarkable listening


----------



## kawhia (Dec 27, 2022)

For some days now I have a problem with crackle sounds on some loud notes in my music. One example: Everything but the girl - like the deserts miss the rain album on first track around 1:45 min.
When the voice is loudest there is a crackle sound very audible on my system.
I tried hp direct from Dave and it is still there. So it is not a problem of the amp. But even when I listen with some earbud headphones on my iPhone I hear the sound. But it is far less audible, I guess because it is way less resolving.
Can you hear it as well?
I stream Qobuz over my NUC.

PS even when I use the Qobuz app I can hear it. Is it in the recording?


----------



## datka3 (Dec 27, 2022)

Still using Dave after 5 years.
I’m my 5 year I’ve tried mscaler for a week with expensive Dual BNC , at the end returned it . It just did not exiting to me as much as I thought it would .

Next I tied using dual Kecea P3 custom solution to replace stock LPS , that changes sound and for some time I thought that it was better because presentation became less digital and was more meat to the bone, but eventually I realized they Dave lost its magic quality. Speed and transients were sacrifices .

Now . I’m using power conditioner Puritan psm156 with really expensive Mexcel power cord and Dave sound fantastic…

Future : I’m considering Farad3 upgrade foe Dave , I just hope that improvement that it brings are not at the cost  of  most of most important  quality- transients…

One more thing, last interview with Rob mentioned that he was working on dedicated scaler for Dave and “Silly money DAC”


----------



## ecwl

kawhia said:


> For some days now I have a problem with crackle sounds on some loud notes in my music. One example: Everything but the girl - like the deserts miss the rain album on first track around 1:45 min.
> When the voice is loudest there is a crackle sound very audible on my system.
> I tried hp direct from Dave and it is still there. So it is not a problem of the amp. But even when I listen with some earbud headphones on my iPhone I hear the sound. But it is far less audible, I guess because it is way less resolving.
> Can you hear it as well?
> ...


First track is My Head is My Only House Unless It Rains, right?

I just played the track on Tidal off my iPad using the iPad speakers and I don’t hear it.

Did you DSP your Roon? Maybe your DSP clipped Roon so Roon is sending a clipped signal to your iPhone & DAVE then to your headphones?


----------



## Reactcore

datka3 said:


> Still using Dave after 5 years.
> I’m my 5 year I’ve tried mscaler for a week with expensive Dual BNC , at the end returned it . It just did not exiting to me as much as I thought it would .
> 
> Next I tied using dual Kecea P3 custom solution to replace stock LPS , that changes sound and for some time I thought that it was better because presentation became less digital and was more meat to the bone, but eventually I realized they Dave lost its magic quality. Speed and transients were sacrifices .
> ...


I heard a farad'ed one next to stock Dave.

It gives meat to the sound without any cost of transparency.

You can also look at the modification in my link but this is not just pluggable like Farad or SJ.


----------



## kawhia (Dec 27, 2022)

ecwl said:


> First track is My Head is My Only House Unless It Rains, right?
> 
> I just played the track on Tidal off my iPad using the iPad speakers and I don’t hear it.
> 
> Did you DSP your Roon? Maybe your DSP clipped Roon so Roon is sending a clipped signal to your iPhone & DAVE then to your headphones?


Yes correct. Thanks for checking. I don’t use DSP in Roon. Strange. Maybe it is a problem with Qobuz And Tidal is fine? Can you check on your main system, maybe the iPad is not resolving enough? It is around the 1:45 min mark and again at the end.

edit: I played the song on YouTube and it doesn’t distort there. Maybe it is a problem with Qobuz.


----------



## ecwl

kawhia said:


> Yes correct. Thanks for checking. I don’t use DSP in Roon. Strange. Maybe it is a problem with Qobuz And Tidal is fine? Can you check on your main system, maybe the iPad is not resolving enough? It is around the 1:45 min mark and again at the end.
> 
> edit: I played the song on YouTube and it doesn’t distort there. Maybe it is a problem with Qobuz.


Just did on my main system via my speakers. I didn’t hear any distortions.
The Tidal version is 44kHz 16-bit lossless. Maybe it‘s a problem with Qobuz then. I mean, this can always happen. If Qobuz has a corrupted file, there’s nothing you can do. Although I heard that Qobuz is super responsive and if you tell them, they can look into the file for you.
It’ll be interesting to see if other Qobuz users hear the same thing.


----------



## datka3

FunkyBassMan said:


> I think you (or at least your language) miss the key point.  The Dave, TT2 and MScaler don't by any means _require_ tweaking, they _inspire_ it.
> 
> And there's never been a piece of gear made that's not improvable if someone is willing to spend enough time and money.


Heck I tuned my e63s wagon


Reactcore said:


> I heard a farad'ed one next to stock Dave.
> 
> It gives meat to the sound without any cost of transparency.
> 
> You can also look at the modification in my link but this is not just pluggable like Farad or SJ.


meat to the sound is exactly what I need , 
I’m removing pre amp from my 2 Chanel and going Dave direct to the amp . 
Thanks .


----------



## lovethatsound

kawhia said:


> Yes correct. Thanks for checking. I don’t use DSP in Roon. Strange. Maybe it is a problem with Qobuz And Tidal is fine? Can you check on your main system, maybe the iPad is not resolving enough? It is around the 1:45 min mark and again at the end.
> 
> edit: I played the song on YouTube and it doesn’t distort there. Maybe it is a problem with Qobuz.


I've just tried this track for you ,straight from the dave to the new utopia and there is no cracking on it,hope this helps


----------



## Yatharth (Dec 30, 2022)

(Deleted)


----------



## Reactcore

Dave and scaler just got a new sibling..


----------



## MvRBE10

Reactcore said:


> Dave and scaler just got a new sibling..


Pretty cool setup 👍🏻


----------



## Yatharth

Is it true that Sony IER-Z1R IEM sounds harsh with Chord Dave?


----------



## cerealmilk

Reactcore said:


> Dave and scaler just got a new sibling..


man thats so cool


----------



## tomwoo

Reactcore said:


> Dave and scaler just got a new sibling..


You should definitely patent this design (the bottom two boxes of course).


----------



## Reactcore

Yatharth said:


> Is it true that Sony IER-Z1R IEM sounds harsh with Chord Dave?


I guess few people use Dave with IEM's.. most use full size cans or speakers.

IEM's can easily be set loud out of Dave perhaps making them sound piercing cause of sheer volume..


----------



## Mr X

datka3 said:


> Still using Dave after 5 years.
> I’m my 5 year I’ve tried mscaler for a week with expensive Dual BNC , at the end returned it . It just did not exiting to me as much as I thought it would .
> 
> Next I tied using dual Kecea P3 custom solution to replace stock LPS , that changes sound and for some time I thought that it was better because presentation became less digital and was more meat to the bone, but eventually I realized they Dave lost its magic quality. Speed and transients were sacrifices .
> ...


I've been wondering how Dave would sound with a Puritan156 with my MDave

I've never gone down the route of power conditioners but this one has me intrigued. So how would you say it impacts in your setup?
Thanks


----------



## Reactcore

Mr X said:


> I've been wondering how Dave would sound with a Puritan156 with my MDave
> 
> I've never gone down the route of power conditioners but this one has me intrigued. So how would you say it impacts in your setup?
> Thanks


All treatment can matter.. but i would seperate Dave and scaler power.. not putting it on the same outlet.. eg. Only Dave behind it.
So scaler 2Gz noise is stopped


----------



## SteveHulk

Reactcore said:


> All treatment can matter.. but i would seperate Dave and scaler power.. not putting it on the same outlet.. eg. Only Dave behind it.
> So scaler 2Gz noise is stopped


If you put nothing else in your system on batteries you could power only the mscaler direct from its own battery.

That, together with an optical link, would mean you could forever forget any worries about rf noise from the mscaler.


----------



## Progisus

Some say there is radiated noise as well. They suggest separating it a few meters from other equipment. I haven’t noticed this but did see an improvement with the Wave cables.


----------



## Reactcore

Progisus said:


> Some say there is radiated noise as well. They suggest separating it a few meters from other equipment. I haven’t noticed this but did see an improvement with the Wave cables.


2Ghz is easily transmitted through the air.. and imo its from the coax cables.. not so much the metal housing.. hence my dualdata link using fiber straight out the housing


----------



## GuiltyRocker

I listened to a new Sabre-based "high end" DAC recently and it was so soft, sounded pleasant but lacked all the attack and impact that Rob talks about, seems like it wasn't retrieving all the transients.  Rob is right again, can't have all this overly-liquidity stuff, I went home and fired the Chord DAC with M Scaler and the difference was striking.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Since you guys keep worrying about RF noise, what does it really sound like when it's present in your system?


----------



## SteveHulk

GuiltyRocker said:


> Since you guys keep worrying about RF noise, what does it really sound like when it's present in your system?


When I've listened to systems before and after rf noise suppression measures I've noticed three things in particular:

Gross blasts of rf (eg from fridges starting and stopping) will cause a DAC to lose lock on the digital signal which causes audio dropouts in the time taken to relock;

More subtle rf lends a nasty hardness or edginess to the upper mid and treble, among other things destroying the timbre of vocals especially soprano;

rf also subtly destabilises the bass leading to a loss of definition of bass lines - a wandering and unfocused effect. This is particularly noticeable on organ music with its frequent sustained low notes. 

Attention to rf noise reduces all of these unpleasant effects.

Similarly, acoustic vibration isolation also reduces the second and third effects. But that's another story 😀


----------



## GuiltyRocker

SteveHulk said:


> When I've listened to systems before and after rf noise suppression measures I've noticed three things in particular:
> 
> Gross blasts of rf (eg from fridges starting and stopping) will cause a DAC to lose lock on the digital signal which causes audio dropouts in the time taken to relock;
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it.


----------



## Yatharth

Does Chord Dave offer way better sound quality with MacBook Air/Pro (using Roon 2.0) than Hugo 2?


----------



## jlbrach

the dave is far superior to the hugo 2..I have both but the hugo 2 is outstanding for the price and portability


----------



## zen87192

Happy New Year to all on HeadFi! May 2023 bring you Good Health Good Fortune and very Happy Listening 🎧 🎶


----------



## Icenine2

What are the Green wave hole LED's? I came home, DAVE on and LED's were Red. Switched off then on and back to green. Seems like running fine. All I can think is somehow it overheate and shut down?


----------



## Reactcore (Jan 2, 2023)

Icenine2 said:


> What are the Green wave hole LED's? I came home, DAVE on and LED's were Red. Switched off then on and back to green. Seems like running fine. All I can think is somehow it overheate and shut down?


They are internal status led's.

Chord can use these for troubledshooting startup sequence etc. when opened.
I believe there are 3 of them at different circuit sections.

I use to peek at it between the display from front to see if Dave's gone in standby after pressing off on remote.


----------



## Triode User

Reactcore said:


> 2Ghz is easily transmitted through the air..


Yes and hence why it is used for WiFi (with frequencies of 2.4GHz and 5GHz) and is also why I try to avoid hifi devices which use wifi because it seems counterproductive to actually install a RF wifi transmitter inside the hifi device.


----------



## FunkyBassMan

jlbrach said:


> the dave is far superior to the hugo 2..I have both but the hugo 2 is outstanding for the price and portability


I would agree with this.


----------



## alekc

jlbrach said:


> the dave is far superior to the hugo 2..I have both but the hugo 2 is outstanding for the price and portability


Let me concur a bit this point of view as with introduction of Mojo 2 the whole Chord product matrix got very complex and complicated. For me it is the Mojo 2 that gives you a lot for this price point making Hugo 2 with limited features set and more than 3x price a bit questionable. Just my 2 cents...  Dave is brilliant for critical listening but for musicality and enjoyment TT2 is the way to go for me.


----------



## Yatharth

alekc said:


> Let me concur a bit this point of view as with introduction of Mojo 2 the whole Chord product matrix got very complex and complicated. For me it is the Mojo 2 that gives you a lot for this price point making Hugo 2 with limited features set and more than 3x price a bit questionable. Just my 2 cents...  Dave is brilliant for critical listening but for musicality and enjoyment TT2 is the way to go for me.


Mojo 2 looks like a kid’s toy 😂 Hugo 2 looks like alien technology 👽


----------



## Mr X

alekc said:


> Let me concur a bit this point of view as with introduction of Mojo 2 the whole Chord product matrix got very complex and complicated. For me it is the Mojo 2 that gives you a lot for this price point making Hugo 2 with limited features set and more than 3x price a bit questionable. Just my 2 cents...  Dave is brilliant for critical listening but for musicality and enjoyment TT2 is the way to go for me.



Interesting as I'm toying about with replacing my DAVE with a TT2 to go along with my MScaler - not sure why I juts fancy a change and I've never heard the TT2 - Ideally I will try and loan one first before regretting it!


----------



## Yatharth

Mr X said:


> Interesting as I'm toying about with replacing my DAVE with a TT2 to go along with my MScaler - not sure why I juts fancy a change and I've never heard the TT2 - Ideally I will try and loan one first before regretting it!


Dave + Mscaler is better option than TT2 + Mscaler so don’t even think about it


----------



## FunkyBassMan

Yatharth said:


> Dave + Mscaler is better option than TT2 + Mscaler so don’t even think about it


Quite true.


----------



## Yatharth

Mr X said:


> Interesting as I'm toying about with replacing my DAVE with a TT2 to go along with my MScaler - not sure why I juts fancy a change and I've never heard the TT2 - Ideally I will try and loan one first before regretting it!


You must be on drugs if you’re considering replacing your Dave with TT2


----------



## FunkyBassMan (Jan 2, 2023)

Ards said:


> For me, that Amir couldn't hear any differences dissolves any remaining credibility he had.  Cult is the appropriate word here for ASR and it's adherents.


Very true.

And, as I politely explained there (not in so many words, of course), to claim "anything that matters can be measured" is pure idiocy.  To claim that whatever standards of measurements happen to exist today capture everything about audio almost couldn't be more stupid.

And of course got immediately trashed by people who can't afford Dave or hear that it's good, and instantly banned!

 Not sure why they see those of us who like audio gear that sounds good as so evil.  I personally can't appreciate very fine wines, but have not a thing against people who can.  ASR is a sick bunch of people.


----------



## Mr X

Yatharth said:


> You must be on drugs if you’re considering replacing your Dave with TT2


No I am not on drugs.


----------



## TheMiddleSky (Jan 2, 2023)

Mr X said:


> No I am not on drugs.



x2 from me

There is a "coldness effect" in Dave (when direct compared with TT2) that I simply couldn't "unheard" every time I back to Dave. Fully understandable Dave is better if detail is the very main priority.


----------



## Icenine2

Reactcore said:


> They are internal status led's.
> 
> Chord can use these for troubledshooting startup sequence etc. when opened.
> I believe there are 3 of them at different circuit sections.
> ...


Turns out my Wife was dusting and put it in standby


----------



## LisaShayBrown (Jan 2, 2023)

FunkyBassMan said:


> Very true.
> 
> And, as I politely explained there (not in so many words, of course), to claim "anything that matters can be measured" is pure idiocy.  To claim that whatever standards of measurements happen to exist today capture everything about audio almost couldn't be more stupid.
> 
> ...


It's so weird they can't hear it.

I def don't have golden ears or anything, but to me the difference between the dave and m-scaler we have now and the one before (a dcs something or other my boyfriend had) is that the other one sounded smooth and pretty but now it sounds like I'm listening to live music all the time, or, like the music used to be clean but now it's organic, like real people are playing right in front of me


----------



## GuiltyRocker

What I learned is that there is no convincing them that you enjoy the Stuff you have and at some point the measurements don't tell you anything, I just don't go to that site and now just enjoy my stuff.


----------



## johnwillmclean

FunkyBassMan said:


> Very true.
> 
> And, as I politely explained there (not in so many words, of course), to claim "anything that matters can be measured" is pure idiocy.  To claim that whatever standards of measurements happen to exist today capture everything about audio almost couldn't be more stupid.
> 
> ...



There may be a difference regarding subjective vs measurement data that does not correlate, for me personally I conclude the phenomenon is linked to susceptibility and the human condition, under a proper controlled test I find it hard to dispute. For example I cannot hear differences between good measuring modern DACs, a Topping, RME and Mola Mola Tambaqui are identical to my ears.

I’m sure the people that trashed your posts were not doing so because they couldn't afford a Dave, they were doing so because they cannot see its value over alternatives 1/10th the cost.

I’m not defending ASR, ASR could have been a much better place to inform and educate instead of using tiresome ridiculing rhetoric, which only serves to divide people. However in saying that the measurement data derived are important value, it may not interest all parties, however a head in the sand approach to measurements and some technicalities may not be the wisest choice when making big investments.


----------



## jlbrach (Jan 2, 2023)

what it sounds like is all that matters,I get the sense people look at charts first and then decide how it will sound....


----------



## FunkyBassMan

johnwillmclean said:


> There may be a difference regarding subjective vs measurement data that does not correlate, for me personally I conclude the phenomenon is linked to susceptibility and the human condition, under a proper controlled test I find it hard to dispute. For example I cannot hear differences between good measuring modern DACs, a Topping, RME and Mola Mola Tambaqui are identical to my ears.
> 
> I’m sure the people that trashed your posts were not doing so because they couldn't afford a Dave, they were doing so because they cannot see its value over alternatives 1/10th the cost.
> 
> I’m not defending ASR, ASR could have been a much better place to inform and educate instead of using tiresome ridiculing rhetoric, which only serves to divide people. However in saying that the measurement data derived are important value, it may not interest all parties, however a head in the sand approach to measurements and some technicalities may not be the wisest choice when making big investments.


Yup.  

Also, someone sent me a PM with a screenshot showing that Amir has a deal with Topping.  So it all actually sort of makes sense now.


----------



## alekc

Yatharth said:


> Dave + Mscaler is better option than TT2 + Mscaler so don’t even think about it


As always it all very subjective and personal taste dependant. I'm looking for an enjoyment in music hence I can sacrifice some details, sound stage etc for musicality and I tend to prefer a bit relaxed sound. Therefore I do prefer TT2 with M-Scaler to Dave (with or without M-Scaler) and still prefer a lot more Rockne WaveLight. As I've said before: Dave IMHO is brilliant for very critical listening especially for classical (live) music. YMMV.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

FunkyBassMan said:


> Yup.
> 
> Also, someone sent me a PM with a screenshot showing that Amir has a deal with Topping.  So it all actually sort of makes sense now.


Why I'm I not surprised?  😂.


----------



## Powersquat

alekc said:


> As always it all very subjective and personal taste dependant. I'm looking for an enjoyment in music hence I can sacrifice some details, sound stage etc for musicality and I tend to prefer a bit relaxed sound. Therefore I do prefer TT2 with M-Scaler to Dave (with or without M-Scaler) and still prefer a lot more Rockne WaveLight. As I've said before: Dave IMHO is brilliant for very critical listening especially for classical (live) music. YMMV.


The TT2 is indeed a very fine DAC and I could easily have lived with it for much longer than I did, but for one issue. I speak here as an exclusive 2 channel listener, through my system the TT2 fell down on bass reproduction, I found it a little slow and muddy sounding in the lower frequencies and I honestly believe this is why it's sound is a bit more relaxed than the DAVE.

The  TT2 's  lower end  improved when I added the MScaler, but solo DAVE was more to my taste than the TT2 and MScaler, DAVE offers greater depth and texture in the lower frequencies and when paired with the MScaler this only improved, but these things are subjective.


----------



## Somafunk

FunkyBassMan said:


> Yup.
> 
> Also, someone sent me a PM with a screenshot showing that Amir has a deal with Topping. So it all actually sort of makes sense now.



Go on then, post the screenshot otherwise it never happened


----------



## Reactcore

So its happening.. the big test.. Stock Dave vs Farad'ed vs Cap modded vs Farad + Cap modded.. with or without dual optic link..
And 2 sets of ears A-B'ing






Impressions coming up later..


----------



## alxw0w

Reactcore said:


> So its happening.. the big test.. Stock Dave vs Farad'ed vs Cap modded vs Farad + Cap modded.. with or without dual optic link..
> And 2 sets of ears A-B'ing
> 
> 
> ...


Nice, have fun


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Reactcore said:


> So its happening.. the big test.. Stock Dave vs Farad'ed vs Cap modded vs Farad + Cap modded.. with or without dual optic link..
> And 2 sets of ears A-B'ing
> 
> 
> ...


Great, let us know your findings.


----------



## Jawed

Reactcore said:


> So its happening.. the big test.. Stock Dave vs Farad'ed vs Cap modded vs Farad + Cap modded.. with or without dual optic link..
> And 2 sets of ears A-B'ing
> 
> 
> Impressions coming up later..


Will the lids on each DAVE be closed to maximise their RF filtering?


----------



## jlbrach

GuiltyRocker said:


> Why I'm I not surprised?  😂.


I trust very few reviewers...my own ears provide me the best review...since I cant sample everything I tend to look for consensus ...this guy amir and this website ASR is obsessive in its need to be iconoclastic and tear everything down


----------



## GuiltyRocker

jlbrach said:


> I trust very few reviewers...my own ears provide me the best review...since I cant sample everything I tend to look for consensus ...this guy amir and this website ASR is obsessive in its need to be iconoclastic and tear everything down


Exactly.


----------



## Reactcore

Jawed said:


> Will the lids on each DAVE be closed to maximise their RF filtering?


Yes shure the lids were mounted when testing.
I just showed how the internals differ.





The second pair of ears are of @SteveHulk as the 2nd Dave on the table is his one.

He is traveling back to UK now.
I leave the honour to him to post his impressions. Not to be the only one talking about my mods..

Thanks Steve for visiting!


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Reactcore said:


> Yes shure the lids were mounted when testing.
> I just showed how the internals differ.
> 
> 
> ...


That is awesome, Steve hulk is a very cool guy.  Looking forward to the impressions.


----------



## SteveHulk (Jan 5, 2023)

Reactcore said:


> Yes shure the lids were mounted when testing.
> I just showed how the internals differ.
> 
> 
> ...


It was great to see you!

We had a total nerd-out on the audio, which was super fun 😀

Plus I was welcomed into your home as a guest to meet your family, which is a great honour.

Thank you for your lovely hospitality and wonderful company. 

All in all, an excellent way to start the New Year!


----------



## Christer

Reactcore said:


> Yes shure the lids were mounted when testing.
> I just showed how the internals differ.
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm, is the  original HD 800 with stock cable the only headphone you will use for this?
I still own and use mine with some not too demanding, not too densely scored music .  
But for a comparison like this showing off what a Dave Mscaler combo can be  capable of , to really be of any value for me  personally, I would expect both a better headphone like HFM Susvara or even the HEKV2 or  an electrostat used  AND  some very well recorded hi res  acoustic/symphonic music. 
No offence intended and I am saying this  actually having  bought my own HD 800 after having heard it as monitoring headphones at live classical DXD recording sessions over a period of almost 2weeks on a daily basis way back when it had just been released.  Imho,it is still a very good headphone. But there are  and if we are talking electrostas already at the  time of its release, clearly better ones if one wants to hear what is actually on the recording as uncoloured and and transparent and closer to how live acousic instruments actually tend to sound in a real acoustic venue than the  "right honourable" HD800 is capable of.
Still one of the better dynamic headphones out there for acoustic music  and  unlike most more recent  competitors  still very good value for money choice. but not  what I would  only use if I'd make this comparison.
Cheers Christer


----------



## MvRBE10

I specially bought a focal utopia to test the dave and mscaler and indeed until a certain point it stopped what you could hear. on my two way speaker system the whole depth, seperation and musicality is much more profound. I sold the headphone. Maybe on susvaras or others it will go further. I also had the mysphere 3.2 for a few weeks that was alot better than the focals indeed. The hd800 spund for my taste also somewhat flat but with great stage. Everybody has its preference.


----------



## Reactcore (Jan 5, 2023)

@Christer

True. Dont worry ..we had access to many combined music in many genres and resolutions.
We tested also with harder to drive Audeze planars. I even tried 16ohm earbuds for fun

But this test was about comparing the different modifications to Dave and in which areas they give benefits (or not)
Something we could do with 2 Daves on the table..


----------



## MvRBE10

Reactcore said:


> @Christer
> 
> True. Dont worry ..we had access to many combined music in many genres and resolutions.
> We tested also with harder to drive Audeze planars. I even tried 16ohm earbuds for fun
> ...


How were the audezes against your 800?


----------



## number1sixerfan

Christer said:


> Hmm, is the  original HD 800 with stock cable the only headphone you will use for this?
> I still own and use mine with some not too demanding, not too densely scored music .
> But for a comparison like this showing off what a Dave Mscaler combo can be  capable of , to really be of any value for me  personally, I would expect both a better headphone like HFM Susvara or even the HEKV2 or  an electrostat used  AND  some very well recorded hi res  acoustic/symphonic music.
> No offence intended and I am saying this  actually having  bought my own HD 800 after having heard it as monitoring headphones at live classical DXD recording sessions over a period of almost 2weeks on a daily basis way back when it had just been released.  Imho,it is still a very good headphone. But there are  and if we are talking electrostas already at the  time of its release, clearly better ones if one wants to hear what is actually on the recording as uncoloured and and transparent and closer to how live acousic instruments actually tend to sound in a real acoustic venue than the  "right honourable" HD800 is capable of.
> ...



HD800 isn't that far from the Susvara or other modern day TOTL cans, although less enjoyable and engaing to me (just a bit dry and lifelessly analytical in comparison to the Sus in example). Bigger soundstage than the Susvara, almost as resolving, and excellent with imaging and spatial information. I would say it's more than enough for validity in a test like this. Again, whether we prefer it over others or not is another thing. Just my opinion, having had the HD800(s) along with the TC, Susvara and many others recently. (the S isn't a far cry improvement over the original imo).


----------



## Reactcore

MvRBE10 said:


> How were the audezes against your 800?


Those supprised me as being not as dark sounding as i remembered earlier.. they have a more refined sound.. with a more organic texture that i think is pleasing many.

The bass on the HD800 extends deeper.. and the extra soundstage width combined with Dave's depth rendering gives a more outer world presentation.

To my ears the supply mods to Dave made them finally play to their real potential like rarely heard.


----------



## SteveHulk

My head is still spinning from all the combinations we tested but my initial reaction to the various mods that we made is that the optical link brought great benefits to the upper mid and treble, and the caps mod and the Farads brought benefits to the low and even sub bass.

The mid and treble changes were quite profound in vocals. I have always before somewhat shied away from the female voice, as I often found there to be stridency there.

With the optical link that was just gone. I listened to vocals where you could almost hear the sound being formed in the singer's throat. I had never heard that before.

The caps and the Farads brought energy, weight, and definition to the bass. The bass became mighty which is different to just being louder or more extended. That coupled with the enhanced treble made listening to eg big bass drum very satisfying.

I could say much more, but I'll stop there for now. Except to say that at one point during one of my crucial tracks I cried almost uncontrollably. 

Suffice to say that definite strides forward were made and the full potential of the DAVE mscaler combination was being revealed in a way I had never heard before.

As to the questions about why we  used only the hd800 throughout, we were already making and comparing quite a lot of changes and if the test sessions were not to run hopelessly out of control then there had to be a limit on the number of parameters that were varied.


----------



## GuiltyRocker

Wow impressive stuff, you guys are going to go head to head with Rob's Ultima DAC, that I want to see.  😂


----------



## nkj1

Amazing trial. Could you contrast the internal cap modification to 3x Farad supplies?

When you say dual Optical- do you mean a variant of something like the OPTO-DX?

Thanks!


----------



## MvRBE10

I also think the internal caps only cover the analogue part of the dave. So the combination gives you all the advantage and elimination of any noise in the dave. Win win


----------



## 801evan

MvRBE10 said:


> I specially bought a focal utopia to test the dave and mscaler and indeed until a certain point it stopped what you could hear. on my two way speaker system the whole depth, seperation and musicality is much more profound. I sold the headphone. Maybe on susvaras or others it will go further. I also had the mysphere 3.2 for a few weeks that was alot better than the focals indeed. The hd800 spund for my taste also somewhat flat but with great stage. Everybody has its preference.


Yep. Utopia stops scaling fast. On a good chain Susvara will stop scaling and show it's weak noise floor. DCA Stealth keeps scaling and is reference grade.


----------



## Reactcore (Friday at 8:41 AM)

nkj1 said:


> Amazing trial. Could you contrast the internal cap modification to 3x Farad supplies?
> 
> When you say dual Optical- do you mean a variant of something like the OPTO-DX?
> 
> Thanks!


The mentioned optic link is the one i designed.
And is indeed derived from Opto-dx
See my signature weblink of my choral housed scaler.

As for comparison between external PSU powered Dave vs only cap modded i posted my findings in its thread 'Supercharging dave amp'


----------



## lovethatsound

801evan said:


> Yep. Utopia stops scaling fast. On a good chain Susvara will stop scaling and show it's weak noise floor. DCA Stealth keeps scaling and is reference grade.


You must have a bad utopia,if it's stop scaling fast,as for the hd800,I've still got mine,and use them for about 2 years with the dave and loved them until I got the utopia,the utopia just sounds REAL. Unfortunately my original utopia diver broke a few months ago,so I went back to the hd800,but I just couldn't enjoy it anymore, it just don't sound REAL,so I brought a new 2022 utopia,which to me sounds abit better than the original utopia.The utopia with the dave sounds fantastic,the utopia is very easy to drive, and as far as I'm concerned, one of the best if not the best REAL sounding headphones that has been made to date.


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## 801evan (Sunday at 12:25 AM)

lovethatsound said:


> You must have a bad utopia,if it's stop scaling fast,as for the hd800,I've still got mine,and use them for about 2 years with the dave and loved them until I got the utopia,the utopia just sounds REAL. Unfortunately my original utopia diver broke a few months ago,so I went back to the hd800,but I just couldn't enjoy it anymore, it just don't sound REAL,so I brought a new 2022 utopia,which to me sounds abit better than the original utopia.The utopia with the dave sounds fantastic,the utopia is very easy to drive, and as far as I'm concerned, one of the best if not the best REAL sounding headphones that has been made to date.


Try a DCA stealth or even a Susvara and it's obvious the Utopia ain't catching up. The utopia is good for mid-fi chains with poor blacks where both utopia and susvara will sound complimentary or the utopia sounding even 'better'. That's just how it is. It's also based on the distortion levels of the HP. This is always why DCA Stealth will sound underwhelming in such a chain because the weak noise floor of the chain goes above the black capacity of the Stealth while the Utopia peaky bass will rely on the consumer thinking this bass punch is correct.


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## Reactcore (Sunday at 2:44 AM)

lovethatsound said:


> You must have a bad utopia,if it's stop scaling fast,as for the hd800,I've still got mine,and use them for about 2 years with the dave and loved them until I got the utopia,the utopia just sounds REAL. Unfortunately my original utopia diver broke a few months ago,so I went back to the hd800,but I just couldn't enjoy it anymore, it just don't sound REAL,so I brought a new 2022 utopia,which to me sounds abit better than the original utopia.The utopia with the dave sounds fantastic,the utopia is very easy to drive, and as far as I'm concerned, one of the best if not the best REAL sounding headphones that has been made to date.


I remember hearing the Utopia once aside my HD800. But couldnt help to miss some soundstage although the Focal was warmer sounding.. This was at the time not on a Chord btw.

Were you on stock cushions or thicker leather ones? As this adds low end and thus make it warmer/fuller also the SDR mod betters it.

This 'Real' sound i now got with my last Dave Cap mod makes them strongly grab on my emotions. I never imagined the scaling of them could go so much further.


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## MvRBE10

I tried dekoni pads and upgraded to dragon lead it all became somewhat better. But i have to admit i never have shivvers from headphones speakers give me more emotion and information its just in everything better. But it takes more room and if you have neighhbours it can be complicated


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## lovethatsound

Reactcore said:


> I remember hearing the Utopia once aside my HD800. But couldnt help to miss some soundstage although the Focal was warmer sounding.. This was at the time not on a Chord btw.
> 
> Were you on stock cushions or thicker leather ones? As this adds low end and thus make it warmer/fuller also the SDR mod betters it.
> 
> This 'Real' sound i now got with my last Dave Cap mod makes them strongly grab on my emotions. I never imagined the scaling of them could go so much further.


Stock cushions,I've read about your dave updates with interest,and I do find them very interesting,I would say to you,if you can,get a utopia and use for a few weeks,then go back to your hd800,I think you would find it very hard to keep listening to your hd800,and after all your Dave upgrades,even more so.like I've said before I loved the hd800 with the Dave,but the utopia are more REAL sounding,plus you can play any kind of music with them,let's be honest here ,alot of headphones are only good with 1,or 2 types of music,the utopia great with every type,easy to drive unlike some of the other top headphones,it would be very interesting to hear a utopia on your upgraded Dave.


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## Reactcore

lovethatsound said:


> alot of headphones are only good with 1,or 2 types of music


I'm kind of a soundstagehead but add Daves depth and now also authority to it and it becomes a massive open space for the music. In contrast it can now sound very intimide too like a artist is sitting next to me singing.
Something the HD800 couldnt do well before like some others. Now its a allround player of size.

But i'm eager to hear the Susvara again
Also the Focals and others..


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## Reactcore

I just posted a boxed optic link solution in my thread

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/my-choral-housed-chord-mscaler.964931/post-17337052


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## 801evan (Monday at 12:14 AM)

Having heard the Tamba, Dave and May, this demo actually represents the difference I heard on the top and bottom extension quality of the 3 dacs and how it handles micros. The May extension sounds filed off, and nasal in comparison. Some users claim the May is smooth, well, they are mostly hearing the line conditioner that comes with the May psu and any Tamba and Dave owner can treat themselves with a line conditioner and easily scale ahead of the May. Tamba has a relatively cleaner psu that's why it can sound quieter than the Dave but a good line conditioner will make the Dave sound ahead and owners will enjoy the superb oversampling filter.


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## Ragnar-BY

801evan said:


> Some users claim the May is smooth, well, they are mostly hearing the line conditioner that comes with the May psu and any Tamba and Dave owner can treat themselves with a line conditioner and easily scale ahead of the May.


It is not true. I owned both DAVE and May at the same time. I have both a balanced transformer and a PS Audio power regenerator. DAVE's highs don't start to sound as "smooth" as May's even with the best conditioner, regenerator, whatever.

These are completely different sounding DACs that will appeal to different listeners depending on their priorities. Macrodynamics against microdynamics, timbre fullness against 3D arrangement of images and so on. None of these DACs sound "wrong" or "worse", just different. Both May and DAVE are two absolutely competitive DACs. The difference in price is big, but it is quite justified, since in one case it is a popular brand with a cool CNC-ed body, and in the other case, a rectangular box from China.


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## 801evan (Monday at 9:43 AM)

Ragnar-BY said:


> balanced transformer and a PS Audio power regenerator. DAVE's highs don't start to sound as "smooth" as May's even with the best conditioner, regenerator, whatever.


Eh....it's not the Dave fault for not sounding as smooth as the May then.... It's the fault of the balanced tranformer and regenerator. Dave is so much more smoother, faster, dynamic and transparent.



Ragnar-BY said:


> These are completely different sounding DACs that will appeal to different listeners depending on their priorities



The May can't even touch my Zen one sig mod and Qutest. Let me put it that way. And the May already had HQplayer @ 1.5mhz and over 3 weeks break in. The May is a marketing marvel where it's internal oversampling is subpar that they marketed NOS as superior.


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## Ragnar-BY

@801evan sorry mate, I didn't pay attention to the nickname when I replied. With such a great expert on everything in the world, I would not even begin to argue 🤣


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## 801evan

Ragnar-BY said:


> The difference in price is big, but it is quite justified, since in one case it is a popular brand with a cool CNC-ed body, and in the other case, a rectangular box from China.


With the conclusion based on chassis shape and design, I understand.


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## LisaShayBrown (Monday at 11:58 AM)

I'm using balanced headphones with a ddHifi adapter to go from 4 connector to 1/4" 3 connector with the dave and getting mono sound.  The adapter works fine everywhere else.  Anyone know what's going on?


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## Reactcore

LisaShayBrown said:


> I'm using balanced headphones with a ddHifi adapter to go from 4 connector to 1/4" 3 connector with the dave and getting mono sound.  The adapter works fine everywhere else.  Anyone know what's going on?


Maybe the adapter dont go all way into Dave's socket and ground pin makes no contact..


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## LisaShayBrown

Reactcore said:


> Maybe the adapter dont go all way into Dave's socket and ground pin makes no contact..


Thanks!  I'll look at that.


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## Reactcore

Hi,
A comparison between Capped Dave and TT2 is posted in my supercharging dave's amp thread.


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## Yatharth

What’s the best sounding headphone with Dave?


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## Ciggavelli

Yatharth said:


> What’s the best sounding headphone with Dave?


Non-modded DAVE straight out of the HP output?… probably Utopias or Solitaire P.


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## Slim1970

Ciggavelli said:


> Non-modded DAVE straight out of the HP output?… probably Utopias or Solitaire P.


I’m in complete agreement here. Both the Utopia’s and Solitaire P’s are outstanding straight out of the DAVE. I’m also enjoying the Focal Celestee’s straight out the DAVE at the moment. It has surprisingly great synergy with the DAVE.


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## Yatharth (Tuesday at 7:09 PM)

(Deleted)


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## Yatharth (Tuesday at 7:38 PM)

(Deleted)


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## Yatharth

What’s the best sounding headphone with Dave combined with M-Scaler and the best amplifier?


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## Ciggavelli

Yatharth said:


> What’s the best sounding headphone with Dave combined with M-Scaler and the best amplifier?


There’s no right answer. For me personally, the Abyss 1266 TCs for normal headphones and the Shangri-La Sr for estats.


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## Slim1970

Yatharth said:


> What’s the best sounding headphone with Dave combined with M-Scaler and the best amplifier?


Now this is a whole different can of worms. Putting an amp after the DAVE/HMS can be tricky if you want to maintain the Dave’s transparency levels. Most amps tend to have a sound of their own and you will hear a drop off in sound quality moving from the DAVE alone to a DAVE plus amp. There are some amps that are very good matches like the Benchmark HPA4, HeadAmp GS-X Mk2, and Sparkos Aries. All of these amps are fairly neutral and are close to n[being ”wire wire gain” type amps, meaning they don’t add any coloration to the sound.


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## Yatharth (Tuesday at 8:02 PM)

(Deleted)


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## johnwillmclean

Slim1970 said:


> Now this is a whole different can of worms. Putting an amp after the DAVE/HMS can be tricky if you want to maintain the Dave’s transparency levels. Most amps tend to have a sound of their own and you will hear a drop off in sound quality moving from the DAVE alone to a DAVE plus amp. There are some amps that are very good matches like the Benchmark HPA4, HeadAmp GS-X Mk2, and Sparkos Aries. All of these amps are fairly neutral and are close to n[being ”wire wire gain” type amps, meaning they don’t add any coloration to the sound.


You either use the Daves internal amp or bi-pass it and use an external amp with no loss in signal.


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## SteveHulk (Yesterday at 9:08 PM)

I've had a few days now with the Dave and mscaler as modded by @Reactcore with the optical link on the WA5 and the Audeze LCD-4.

The trip to Rotterdam from London was entirely worth it! I paid for the necessary parts and @Reactcore did the work out of the goodness of his heart. I am so glad I met him - he is a great guy. What matters to him is the music and he just wanted to bring that joy to me. 

Not only do I now have a system without the Dave mscaler form factor clash, but the sound is at a new level.

The Dave and the WA5 are now on their own battery and there is no electrical connection whatsoever between the Dave and the rest of the system - not even through the ground plane. The Dave is isolated from the mscaler by the optical link. 

It sounds so natural. Bass extension, mid range finesse, extraordinary delicate detail in the treble. A beautiful soundstage alive with focused sounds and acoustic ambience.

Piano music. What can I say. Reviewers have commented that the Dave "just does piano" - and now just how. Arvo Pärt "Alina" for piano and cello - I can hear the hammers falling back after each note, the release of the silent strings when the sustain pedal is used, the Steinway bell-like tone in the upper registers and the plangency of the bass. The deep woodiness of the cello. The almost breathy sound of the bow on the strings. An organic timbre totally appropriate to an instrument made of wood, catgut, and horsehair. 

George Crumb "Vox Balaenae" for three masked players - the intimate detail of the crazy sounds that come from a "prepared" piano.

Noisia "Reptilians" - the force in the bass is just mental. You heavy metal fans would just love this! 

I'll stop there. A new interface box for the RAAL sr1b has just arrived and if it works in the way I hope, the Audeze will be history!


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## Reactcore

Have great blissful times sir!! I sure must continue digging in your excellent music collection that you shared 😀

Looking forward to your Raal impressions


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## GuiltyRocker

SteveHulk said:


> I've had a few days now with the Dave and mscaler as modded by @Reactcore with the optical link on the WA5 and the Audeze LCD-4.
> 
> The trip to Rotterdam from London was entirely worth it! I paid for the parts necessary and @Reactcore did the work out of the goodness of his heart. I am so glad I met him - he is a great guy. What matters to him is the music and he just wanted to bring that joy to me.
> 
> ...


Very nice, glad to see you happy.  Enjoy.


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## LucyWu

Reactcore said:


> [To Steve Hulk]
> Looking forward to your Raal impressions


Maybe I can just scroll forward and predict...

"The Raals sound freaking amazing - be gone LCD4, be gone all things not Ribbon-y."

Just to save Steve from a bit of typing that might drag him away from his increasingly excellent set up


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## 801evan

Yatharth said:


> What’s the best sounding headphone with Dave combined with M-Scaler and the best amplifier?


DCA Stealth . 2nd place is susvara, 3rd lcd4. Dave's HP amp is as good as it gets.


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## SteveHulk (Today at 1:07 PM)

"DCA Stealth . 2nd place is susvara, 3rd lcd4. Dave's HP amp is as good as it gets." 

🤣 There you have it, boys and girls. Now you can all pack up and go home.


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